# Kavenz VHP16



## ervandew (Apr 29, 2014)

I couldn't find a dedicated thread for the Kavenz VHP16 so I figured I'd start one.

I paid for a spot in the 2nd batch today and I'm guessing the first batch will show up for people soonish, so when that happens I'd love to see some builds and ride reports.

https://vhp16.kavenz.de/landing-page

"We Develop a Bike Frame"
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoaOU1pmeQn-3OxF5K6o43c5YoEaT9voQ


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Sub'd. Looks interesting. My next bike will likely be a high pivot, just waiting for the right one to come along. This makes at least 4 well executed brands I'm aware of not including DH bikes. 

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


----------



## Nails (Sep 25, 2020)

That looks amazing. Round tubes are so retro. The high pivot with chain roller is so the future. Will be following the thread for ride reports, thanks.


----------



## ervandew (Apr 29, 2014)

WHALENARD said:


> Sub'd. Looks interesting. My next bike will likely be a high pivot, just waiting for the right one to come along. This makes at least 4 well executed brands I'm aware of not including DH bikes.


I've been wanting to try a high pivot bike for awhile too. There are some really good options right now.

Here are 4 more I know of and kind of my thoughts on each based on my height (6'5") and where I like to ride (Southwest Utah, Moab, and Sedona mostly, but I'll also travel to bike parks in the summer):

*Forbidden Druid: *Runs kind of small for my height. While a carbon frame isn't a deal breaker for me, I do prefer aluminum. Also would like a bit more travel, even though by all accounts, these high pivot bikes feel like they have more than they do.

*Deviate Highlander: *Another carbon option, where again I do prefer aluminum. Sizing is better on this one, but just barely.

*Actofive P-Train:* A down right beautiful frame, both the steel front triangle version and the new cnc aluminum front triangle version. The all cnc version is quite expensive though. This would be my second choice as the sizing is really close to my current Evil Offering.

* Norco Shore:* This thing looks like a beast of a plow machine. I think this would be an amazing park/shuttle bike, but I'm unsure if I'd be happy pedaling this up the technical terrain I often ride. I also prefer 29ers.

The Kavenz won out for me based on cost, custom seat/head/top tube options to dial in the fit, aluminum frame, and based on the information I could find, sounds like it's a capable climber as well. Hopefully I'll find out in the spring if I made the right choice.


----------



## OldHouseMan (Dec 7, 2006)

How was Kavenz to work with? I'm not somebody who should be designing bikes and it looks like there are a lot of geometry options to choose from. What was your experience like during the design of the bike?


----------



## ervandew (Apr 29, 2014)

OldHouseMan said:


> How was Kavenz to work with? I'm not somebody who should be designing bikes and it looks like there are a lot of geometry options to choose from. What was your experience like during the design of the bike?


I haven't gotten to the stage yet where I pick tube sizes. I already know what I want based on bikes I've owned in the past so I imagine it'll be pretty easy for me.

Hopefully someone that bought into the first batch will show up here and comment on their experience.

Side note: I noticed that Mike Kazimer (Pinkbike) received a Kavenz frame yesterday, so presumably a review will show up in the coming months.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Really into this bike and looking forward to the reviews. 
I feel these HP designs are getting so close to being the ideal solution. 
For my purposes, if the Kavenz had longer CS and was carbon, I would have purchased it instead of ordering my Evo frame. 
Their full EXT front & rear option is a fantastic bargain as well. Much less than purchasing those components in the US.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## Nails (Sep 25, 2020)

Suns_PSD said:


> Really into this bike and looking forward to the reviews.
> I feel these HP designs are getting so close to being the ideal solution.
> For my purposes, if the Kavenz had longer CS and was carbon, I would have purchased it instead of ordering my Evo frame.
> Their full EXT front & rear option is a fantastic bargain as well. Much less than purchasing those components in the US.
> ...


I'm the opposite. The only carbon Revel keeps it off my list. This alloy frame is just the ticket.

I'm going to yard sale at high speeds. I'm going to bail and ghost rider to save my neck. I'm going to lean it hard and drift out, laying it down. Carbon would be a waste of money. I don't cry over scratched paint.


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

The CS seem rights considering that they grow when you need them (corners, bumps, and other things that compress the susp). Canfield Bros found short CS better with their Jedi.

Just wait for the Norco Shore review. I bet it doesn't really impress too much. I suspect its CS are too long (and too heavy). The Norco Aurum HSP has 400/410/420/430 CS in S/M/L/XL with 1169/1203/1237/1270 WB. I like these #s better. I like Kavenz's numbers. At sag, it's 436mm RC and the WB is 1249 unsagged with 824mm front center.

Note that RC is a bit shorter than CS length. It's horizontally measured, rather than from BB to rear axle. With a BB drop of 34, plus sag of 19mm*, the CS length would be 439.33mm.

* estimated from 30% of 160 (=48), with leverage ratio of 2.46. 48 / 2.46 = 19.5

For someone 6' 5" like the poster above... yea, maybe the WB is a bit long for the CS. For M and L, I'd say it seems dialed. For conventional AM/enduro 29ers, I generally like 1230 WB paired with 435mm CS, 1250 with 440, 1270|445, 1210|430...


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I've sort of reached the conclusion that for bikes in the mid 1200 mm WB range, that front traction and chassis balance is greatly improved by a CS length (at sag) in the 445- 455 mm range. But that doesn't mean I won't discover in time that certain bikes can work outside of this range for me, as I learn everyday. 
So the Kavenz might have been the 'one' for me if the CS length had increased for the longer reach versions. 
Totally get the desire for Al frame material, I've had great luck with CF however and weight matters a lot to me as I do lots of technical climbing. 
But enough about my opinions, I freakin' love the Kavenz and am super excited to read rider reviews here. I've only found 1 very brief review online and it was very flattering, particularly on climbing performance, which I prioritize. 
The biggest unknown for me, is we know about the 1% driveline efficiency lost on the idler. Kavenz themselves told me that a standard chain is 99% efficient, where-as adding in an idler reduces this to 98%.I truly don't know if that's enough to matter. As of yet, the only review I've read that said that an HP bike climbed very well, was the very brief Kavenz review I read. So I'm trying to determine if it's possible to have an HP bike that climbs, ya know 'Yeti/ Pivot/ Mondraker' like? Because if an HP bike can climb like that, then HP is simply the superior suspension design. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Does an HP climb better?

That’s not exactly what I’m reading in reviews.

I think the HP advantage is impact absorption, square hits, the rearward wheel travel softening hits and maintaining traction. Additionally there is less pedal kickback on the downs.

I suspect there may be a climbing advantage, but the suspension movement and added pulley friction may negate that, this is the reason that high pivots have been relegated to downhill bikes.

I’m looking hard at a Druid, but I need a long test ride before buying.

Enjoy the new bike, looks sweet!


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Well, theoretically you can have very high AS, without any of the downsides of high AS, with an HP bike. And the Kavenz does have very high AS.

In fact the Kavenz has this extreme backwards axle path of 1" but none of the pedal kickback and suspension restriction that would come with this arrangement on a normal suspension. Pretty cool. Although I suspect that growing CS under compression feels like it fights you getting your weight back when manualing as it compresses.

If they can build a HP bike that is as light as any trail bike (the weight of the idler itself is nothing compared to SI and other arrangements), and manage friction in the idler arm, there is no reason it can't pedal (specifically over rough terrain) AND descend better than any other traditional linkage bike.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

To me the HP seems like one more thing to worry about and maintain. After reading numerous reviews on some high pivot bikes the benefits don't seem tangible.


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

prj71 said:


> To me the HP seems like one more thing to worry about and maintain. After reading numerous reviews on some high pivot bikes the benefits don't seem tangible.


You mean the idler? Yeah I think some of the manufacturers are using what's on the market for their pulley wheel and bearings. A little ingenuity and redundant robustness shouldn't be all the difficult though.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Suppose the idler has a tougher job than a jockey wheel as it's on the power/ drive side of the equation.

It would seem to me the chain friction would be pretty much a wash as what you gain in chain wrap friction on the idler you lose on the main chainring. So now it's just 1-2 little bearing(s). Make that sucker super high end, I'm talking machined titanium with a ceramic bearing and a light duty seal and I don't see how it would cause any loss in efficiency.


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^Yeah, I think they'll figure it out. Seems to me they adopted DH type idler's (to some degree) to trail bikes meant to be pedaled. Everything is an evolution. 

I'm more and more intrigued by the Kavens. Very curious how they do in the wild. 

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

How much more drag do you expect, compared to a lower chain guide? Is it more than adding a bearing (and its seal)?

The Actofive P-Train fared so well against the other pinkbike trail bike entries that they said it was more of an enduro bike, and they wondered how it'd feel with more travel. The time ahead of the others in descending was greater than the time it was behind in climbing. That's a feat that's unheard of, especially considering the climb's total time was at least 2x longer.

The lack of pedal kickback should set the bike apart from Yeti, DW-Link bikes, and VPP on climbs. On descents, the rearward axle path should set it apart. Kickback on descents is still an unknown, but I think some high kickback bikes actually accelerated on susp compression by virtue of keeping the pedals level with a high-engagement hub and room above the chainstay for the chain to flop. Perhaps the high pivot will have less of an issue regarding how high kickback is sometimes to blame for making the suspension less active with while braking.

The Kavenz VHP16 being a 4-bar system, they can make the IC much more forward than a single pivot, which reins back the anti-rise to more familiar levels, compared to the single-pivot high pivots.

I wonder how the Structure SCW1 would've fared with a high pivot rear. The linkage fork got mega praise, but it was so good that the rear's performance was eclipsed. They couldn't imagine any current system being good enough of a match. I also wonder about it being an emtb too. Make that thing even more of an abomination, eh?


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

One of the comments in the Pinkbike review for this frame suggested a lower “jockey” wheel to reduce chain slippage/chain drop. It doesn’t look like this advice was needed. 

Looking at the chain wrap, I’d be concerned, though it would add another bit of drag...


----------



## EnglishJames (Feb 28, 2021)

Does anyone have one of these? What do you think of it? What did you ride before?


----------



## ervandew (Apr 29, 2014)

Seems they started shipping the first batch out over the past week or two.

Other than the pinkbike review, the only other riding impressions I've found are on a german forum (with help from google translate).


----------



## EnglishJames (Feb 28, 2021)

Cool, I will check that one.
Thanks


----------



## EnglishJames (Feb 28, 2021)

Has anyone received their bikes? What do you think of it? And what did you ride before.
Thanks


----------



## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

Anyone get one yet? I bought a 2021 Shore and am now sold on the mid-high pivot horst design...getting really tempted to pull the trigger on a Kavenz.


----------



## Fictional (Sep 23, 2019)

On chainstay length as a horizontal vs aligned dimension, this is what I got from a more-or-less accurate model with the shock compressed 30%:


----------



## ervandew (Apr 29, 2014)

I've been riding mine for about a month now and I'm really liking it after spending some time getting use to it. Most of my riding has been at the bike park and shuttle rides since it's been too damn hot for trail rides here in southern utah. I'm coming off of an Evil Offering v1 which has been an awesome all arounder, but I certainly find myself coming into features faster on the Kavenz. When I get a chance I'll take some pics and write up more info (ordering experience, couple tips for building it up, etc).


----------



## Roto599 (Jan 3, 2010)

ervandew said:


> I've been riding mine for about a month now and I'm really liking it after spending some time getting use to it. Most of my riding has been at the bike park and shuttle rides since it's been too damn hot for trail rides here in southern utah. I'm coming off of an Evil Offering v1 which has been an awesome all arounder, but I certainly find myself coming into features faster on the Kavenz. When I get a chance I'll take some pics and write up more info (ordering experience, couple tips for building it up, etc).


Hope you have continued to enjoy your bike! Just got mine and will build it over the weekend. All tips welcome, esp concerning the internal routing and use of the foam tubes - how did you do that? Also, what did you use for chainstay protection? Should I wrap the black tape around it? Many thanks for any pointers!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ervandew (Apr 29, 2014)

I definitely have some tips on building it up.

Routing the derailleur housing through the chainstay: I found it pretty easy going front to back. I didn't have an internal routing tool or anything and attempting to start at the back was very frustrating, so i gave it a try from the front and i was able to easily fish the house out the back with a pick.
Routing the rear brake hose: this one was easy enough starting at the back. If you are running Zee or Saint brakes though, be prepared for a not so great bend in the hose due to the top mounted hose on those brakes. I've since switched from my old Zees to a set of TRP DH-R Evos and those mount up much cleaner.
The foam tubes are actually really easy. They are intended just for the downtube, no need to use them in the chainstays. They can be easily pushed through the openings at the bottom of the downtube (shown in the video below)
Before you attempt to install the the plastic plugs for the internal routing on the downtube, watch this video: 



 To me it looked like they would go in one way and I couldn't get them to work, then watched the video and they ended up being pretty easy once i had them oriented correctly.
For chainstay protection they include some mastic tape (or something very similar). I just put a strip of that along the top of the chainstay and I haven't noticed any chain slap noise.
Probably not necessary, but I put some racers tape on my fork steerer, where the cable housings could potentially rub on the steerer.
Don't forget to plug the head tube port you aren't going to use with the sugru (or knockoff) packet they provided before you assemble everything, otherwise you'll be like me and have to drop the fork again to do so.

That's all I can think of off hand but feel free to hit me up if you have any other questions.

Out of curiosity, what rear axle did they ship with your frame? When they shipped mine I guess they hadn't gotten the dt swiss axles yet and sent a less than ideal bolt on axle (non x12 (flat head vs tappered), not full thread engagement), which I've since replaced with one from the Robert Axle Project.

Have fun with the build!


----------



## Roto599 (Jan 3, 2010)

ervandew said:


> Out of curiosity, what rear axle did they ship with your frame? When they shipped mine I guess they hadn't gotten the dt swiss axles yet and sent a less than ideal bolt on axle (non x12 (flat head vs tappered), not full thread engagement), which I've since replaced with one from the Robert Axle Project.
> 
> Have fun with the build!


Hi! Build took some time, as I was missing some parts. Now built with SLX 12sp RD and cranks, Garbaruk custom offset 30t chainring to achieve 49mm chainline, XT Shifter and cassette, XTR chain, Domion A4's (203mm both ends), BTLOS 34mm id rims w DT350 & cx-rays, Burgtec stem, One Up bar, Deathgrips. Oh and the Bikeyoke Divine dropper I bought with the frame. EXT suspension on both ends (bought w the frame). Fabric scoop saddle. Hope to get to a bikepark tonight to try it out. On the rear axle, it's flat headed and does not have full thread engagement - so I guess same as yours. And big thanks for pointing out the quick start video to me, it was a big help. I also installed the iscg adapter and their 77 designs bash guard. The Kintsu glue package had a hole and the stuff had hardened/ dried, but was easy enough to find it in local hardware store, to plug the extra internal routing hole.

What were the exact specs you defined for the Robert Axle? I guess wouldn't hurt to have more thread engaged, at least less dirt would get in hole the unused thread now leaves on the derailleur side.

No real issues with the build. On the rear brake, the Dominion fits well on their adapter, but you can't access the other alignment screw (Hayes has this special feature, no biggie, you just have to now align it similarly to any other brand).

Will report on the ride impressions at some point, however a) I am not a very good rider b) this is my first longer travel bike, so can't really compare it to a anything else than my Ripley V4, and they will for sure feel very different...


----------



## ervandew (Apr 29, 2014)

Roto599 said:


> What were the exact specs you defined for the Robert Axle?


This is the axle I got:








Lightning Bolt-on Axle - Rear 12 mm x 175 or 183 mm x 1.0 Thread - The Robert Axle Project


After years of mountain biking with thru-axles with bulky handles that seemed to strike every trailside obstacle we needed a better option. Our Lightning Bolt-On thru axles offer the highest quality, simple, lightweight alternative to that bulky handle. Available in a range of sizes that fit...




robertaxleproject.com


----------



## ervandew (Apr 29, 2014)

Finally remembered to snap a pic on a recent ride.

Here's the build info:
Frame: 520 reach, 125 head tube, 450 seat tube
Shock: Ext Storia v3, bought with the frame
Fork: Lyrik with Smashpot
Wheels: WeAreOne Unions with i9 hydras
Brakes: TRP DH-R Evo
Drivetrain: XT with slx cassette
Dropper: OneUp with Wolftooth lever + seat collar
Saddle: Chromag trailmaster
Headset: Wolftooth
Bars: OneUp
Stem: i9
Pedals: Canfield Mountains
Bash guard: Absolute Black
Grips: ODI Elite Pro


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Need a profile shot 



ervandew said:


> View attachment 1942455
> 
> 
> Finally remembered to snap a pic on a recent ride.
> ...


----------



## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

Here is my bike I built up a few months ago. 29/27 in a "Medium" configuration.


----------



## Jamesbuttery (Apr 18, 2017)

ervandew said:


> I've been riding mine for about a month now and I'm really liking it after spending some time getting use to it. Most of my riding has been at the bike park and shuttle rides since it's been too damn hot for trail rides here in southern utah. I'm coming off of an Evil Offering v1 which has been an awesome all arounder, but I certainly find myself coming into features faster on the Kavenz. When I get a chance I'll take some pics and write up more info (ordering experience, couple tips for building it up, etc).


I am interested in buying a kavenz instead of my v3 wreckoning.
Are you still loving it over you old evil?
Did you have to pay import tax into America?
I live in southern California so pretty similar trails to where you are.
Would you mind giving me a comparison with your offering, I am trying to decide if its worth swapping for my Wreckoning.
Thanks James


----------



## ervandew (Apr 29, 2014)

Jamesbuttery said:


> I am interested in buying a kavenz instead of my v3 wreckoning.
> Are you still loving it over you old evil?
> Did you have to pay import tax into America?
> I live in southern California so pretty similar trails to where you are.
> ...


I still love my Offering since it's a great do everything bike, but the Kavenz feels noticeably faster on just about any sort of down hill. I've taking it on more varied terrain as well the last few months (Sedona, our local mesas here in southern utah, etc) and it's handled every great. It pedals really well through technical sections (great traction w/ no noticeable pedal bob), but does feel like more work getting it up the hill compared to my Offering (I haven't weighed either bike, but my Kavenz build is certainly heavier). I'm still getting use to the long wheelbase and low bottom bracket, both of which can make those technical climbs more challenging at times. Overall though I've been very happy with the bike. 

Regarding import tax, yeah I eventually got a bill from fedex. I can't recall the amount though, I think somewhere in $100-200 range. That was after a week or so of tracking down the right person at fedex to get me the necessary form and push to get the package out of customs. I know that at least one other person in the US, along with myself, contacted the guys at Kavenz just to let them know the extra hoops we had to jump through, so hopefully they took note of that and were able to make the process easier for future customers.


----------



## Jamesbuttery (Apr 18, 2017)

Brilliant thanks for the info.
Hmm I might be a kavenz owner soon!


----------



## javisst44 (Jun 27, 2016)

More reviews plz =)


----------



## Ñapancha (Nov 10, 2020)

Yes please... we need more reviews.... also what do you think about the similiarities in the design of the rear triangle with the new Devinci Spartan


----------



## Jamesbuttery (Apr 18, 2017)

My Kavenz has arrived it looks awesome.
They told me it would ship between5-7 weeks, on the 6th week it shipped.
They have been amazing with customer service answering all my emails within one day.
Its raining a lot here at the moment, so I will give you my ride reviews asap.


----------



## Thorquin Kiki (Jun 15, 2018)

Jamesbuttery said:


> My Kavenz has arrived it looks awesome.
> They told me it would ship between5-7 weeks, on the 6th week it shipped.
> They have been amazing with customer service answering all my emails within one day.
> Its raining a lot here at the moment, so I will give you my ride reviews asap.


Sweet! Post some pics!


----------



## nibergs (Dec 15, 2014)

This thread need more pics 😇

Here is mine in "Enduro" setup, with heavier tires, aluminium wheels and coil, with this setup you can just plow through everything and it picks up speed on rough downhills like nothing else i have tried i guess it's thanks to the rearward axle path.









And here the "trail" setup, with trail tires, carbon wheels and air shock, this setup makes the bike feel a lot more playful, it loses some of the really good small bump sensitivity you get from the coil but it reacts so much better when you push the pedals hard.


----------



## Jamesbuttery (Apr 18, 2017)

So after a few rides, here is a quick review compared to the v3 wreckoning.
Firstly the STA is much steeper and makes the bike a lot more comfortable, and although I have only climbed fireroards, I notice it climbs as well if not better than the wreckoning.
I also notice I'm not fighting to keep the front wheel down a much so I'm assuming when I get to a single track hard climb it will outclimb the wreckoning.
Its slightly heavier than the wreckoning, my wreck weighed in at 33.8lb.
The kavenz at 34.2, both with coil front and rear.
On the downs the wreckoning feels more playful, more fun but the kavenz is faster and more confidence inspiring.
I ride flats and my feet are staying on the pedals better, and for me that is huge.
Overall I'm very happy, I'm pr'ing trails already and I just cleaned a super Gnarly down that I've only crashed on before.
I can't wait to really get used to it and really fly!


----------



## Jamesbuttery (Apr 18, 2017)




----------



## Thorquin Kiki (Jun 15, 2018)

Just got notification my frame will be delivered this Wednesday! I can't wait to get it built up and ride.


----------



## EnglishJames (Feb 28, 2021)

Thorquin Kiki said:


> Just got notification my frame will be delivered this Wednesday! I can't wait to get it built up and ride.


Awesome.you will love it


----------



## Roto599 (Jan 3, 2010)

Hi! Happy owner of the VHP16. Full 29”, ext both ends. Waiting for the Era to be upgraded to V2. Does anyone have time on the VHP16 both as mullet and full 29? Tempted to try it as mullet also, but unsure on if I really want to invest into a new rear wheel just to try…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jamesbuttery (Apr 18, 2017)

Roto599 said:


> Hi! Happy owner of the VHP16. Full 29”, ext both ends. Waiting for the Era to be upgraded to V2. Does anyone have time on the VHP16 both as mullet and full 29? Tempted to try it as mullet also, but unsure on if I really want to invest into a new rear wheel just to try…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just converted to a vhp 18. Changed out my era v2 to an intend infinity.
I do like the mullet and I actually think it pedals better.
I am also selling my v2 era with about 200 miles on it if you're interested.


----------

