# A curmudgeon rant



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

I love mountain biking. My addiction began nearly two decades ago, when for the princely sum of $100, I purchased my friend's well-ridden 1997 Stumpjumper hardtail with a 100mm elastomer fork. On my first ride, I struggled mightily, pedaling through an unmarked, rocky, rooty trail with tight turns and steep climbs. And I fell. More than once. But man, what an adventure.
























We have come so far. Bikes are amazing. Those old trails that were so difficult on hardtail bikes with 71 degree head tube angles and 26" tires are a breeze on modern, low-end full suspension bikes. But with all this progress, though, we have a new crop of riders that are, to be frank, spoiled and fragile.

These folks buy $6,000 carbon superbikes with 150mm of top-quality suspension and use them to tear down flow trails, believing their ability to rail bermed corners at high speeds makes them skilled riders. On many occasions, I have suggested trying something different only to be met with, "well it's marked black diamond, it might have some features that are too difficult." In my day, we didn't have trail ratings. We just rode until we hit something too big to deal with, then we got off our bikes and walked.
















After finally getting them out on some gnarly old school tech trails, one says to me, "Oh, these aren't real mountain biking trails." Oh really? Because I can tell you for a fact they were cut by mountain bikers for mountain bikers.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy a good flow trail. But there's something fundamentally missing from a carefully curated dirt ribbon with supportive berms on every turn and perfectly sculpted tabletops. To me, that's not real mountain biking, That's an amusement park ride complete with safety bars and routine inspections to ensure nothing can go wrong. Real mountain biking is raw. It's difficult. It's dangerous. It's an adventure.

















So, here's to the old days of getting lost in the woods without GPS. Here's to climbing mountains and riding steep gnar on hardtails with garbage forks. Here's to hard work, sweat, and adventure. Here's to the true spirit of mountain biking.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

🍿

This one oughta get good.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Being a professed curmudgeon myself, you have my sympathies. However, I have yet to have someone "argue" with me as to what is a MTB trail. Fortunately, even here in NEO, we still have some challenging terrain, and some unique trail features that are not really duplicated elsewhere - and a lot fewer people ride them.

-F


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

As a person who gets on his bike at trailhead and then rides around for 1-5hrs...I whole hearted agree with your sentiment. In fact, I've never been on a proper "flow trail" or ever done any lift service. Get on bike...ride...sometimes: walk around. That's it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

If they're riding and enjoying themselves it's all good, they don't have to like the same stuff that I do.


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## TazMini (Jun 21, 2019)

I am with you. Don’t get me started on the pack of teenagers on eBikes I see in Bentonville…

That said, everyone get’s their Fix differently. Going mach-chicken down flow trails is what they see on YouTube so that is the Sport to them. 

It is also a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy when many of the new trails built are buff wide smooth trail. 

My old man rant is more todo with the lack of middle ground at many new trail centers; either it’s flow/jump or black double diamond widow makers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

I get the OP's point, and as long time rider, I tend to agree for the most part. The transition to trails being more 'flow-oriented' (add that to the buzzword thread if it's not there already) and the bikes being ridden on them has been a bit ironic. That said, flow get's harder the faster you go.


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

One good thing is that here in Colorado the non-flow old school trails built for hiking or mining way back in the 1800's are not loved by the tens of thousands (yes, CO has easily 50K+ new MTBers in the last 10 ten years). These are the generally unmarked boulder and talas strewn trails that go all over the mountains here sometimes with no obvious end. VERY FEW riders I bring to these trails ever want to come back as they don't like the required hike a bike, steep rock drops with no obvious lines, lack of berms, creek crossings, and generally ass busting nature of taking 2 hours to go 5 miles. But that is OK!!!!


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

old curmudgeon here as well. Te begin, get off my lawn. Got my first MTB the day Yellow Jersey in Madison got one in and never looked back. Moved to Vail a couple years later and all we had was hiking trails and horse paths. Big fun, not all of it good for biking.

But man, if you haven't gotten out on some good flow trails ( I always ride to the top, I'm from the earn your turns school) you need to get off your high horse and try 'em out - it's a kick in the a$$.

As some old guy with a crappy voice said once, the times, they are a changin'.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Variety is the spice of life.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

I have a similar story only mine starts 30+ years ago with rigid bikes and friction thumbshifters and where trails were made by cows, hikers, water, and wild animals. I appreciate flow trails, I appreciated technical climbing, I really appreciate trails that are built to last, but mostly i appreciate my disc brakes and tubeless tires. I might have suspension but I do appreciate technology and trail building skill way more than I did back in the 80's.

The best thing about trails today is I don't worry about erosion ruining the trail or poorly made jumps or someone driving their motorcycle up a climb. I love a technical climb as much as a technical descent but I also love a smooth ascent and a fast bermed flowing descent. Just as I wouldn't give up my discs or tubeless tires I wouldn't give up these things either. 

Lots of folks have no experience riding cantilevers, 1.9 tires, skinny rims, long stems, toe clips, and triple chainrings but it doesn't make them any less mountain bikers than I am. I can't hit big doubles but that doesn't make me any less a mountain biker than these people on their carbon super bikes.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

It's all good. I enjoyed it before we had commercial MTBs, making stupid unsustainable trails, and being foundational in an area to make the sport sustainable and friendly for everyone. There's plenty of easy and sadomasochistic f*ckry to go around. With so much available, be careful criticizing stuff that promotes a lot of happiness and well being for others.

A year ago when I thought the crowds and scene were getting to much at dusk over a post ride beer each ear caught two very different conversations. One ear caught some older complainers. The other ear caught a girl tell her dad it was the coolest thing in the world. For that girl telling her dad a safe fun place to ride was so cool, I'll suggest complainers shut their pie holes. Kids bike programs in my area are far more accepting of kids who would not be loved or even accepted in conventional sports so there's a reason for complainers to shut up.


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

It seems to me you should be glad the hordes aren't clogging up the style trails you prefer.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

bitflogger said:


> It's all good. I enjoyed it before we had commercial MTBs, making stupid unsustainable trails, and being foundational in an area to make the sport sustainable and friendly for everyone. There's plenty of easy and sadomasochistic f*ckry to go around. With so much available, be careful criticizing stuff that promotes a lot of happiness and well being for others.
> 
> A year ago when I thought the crowds and scene were getting to much at dusk over a post ride beer each ear caught two very different conversations. One ear caught some older complainers. The other ear caught a girl tell her dad it was the coolest thing in the world. For that girl telling her dad a safe fun place to ride was so cool, I'll suggest complainers shut their pie holes. Kids bike programs in my area are far more accepting of kids who would not be loved or even accepted in conventional sports so there's a reason for complainers to shut up.


But these kids would have been accepted in the complainers era as well. I mean I get your point, but that's a bit non-sequitur.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Thankfully I live in an area where rugged stuff is the norm and the expectation. So I've never heard the complaints from people who ride flow trails almost exclusively. Flow trails here exist, but they're fairly new and smaller trail systems (mostly on private land, too), so we don't have locals who grew up riding nothing but flow yet.

I don't lament the growth of trail ratings, though. Before trail ratings, the barriers to entry for riding mountain bikes were exceptionally high. You had to be REALLY comfortable with Type 2 fun. Nowadays, because of trail ratings, maps, and rider reviews, I know where to go to get my Type 2 fun. But if that's not the experience I'm seeking, then those same resources help me choose my experience. I get what you're saying that it makes it easy for people to avoid challenging themselves more. But do they have to? If someone is comfortable with where they are, what's wrong with them staying in that spot? The vast majority of us do that at some level, anyway. I don't really have any desire to get massive air, for example.

I DO wish that more people respected the land, the trails, the locals, the builders, the land managers, etc. But this is a MUCH wider problem than just mtb, though. But the inundation of public lands in the past year has illustrated how bad it really is. Trash, feces, overcrowding, treating each other poorly, etc. I'm glad it appears to be calming down some, at least. There still appears to be a real shortage with campsites still, however, but hopefully the folks getting out and using them are taking better care of them now that the rush is calming down.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

spaightlabs said:


> old curmudgeon here as well. Te begin, get off my lawn. Got my first MTB the day Yellow Jersey in Madison got one in and never looked back. Moved to Vail a couple years later and all we had was hiking trails and horse paths. Big fun, not all of it good for biking.
> 
> But man, if you haven't gotten out on some good flow trails ( I always ride to the top, I'm from the earn your turns school) you need to get off your high horse and try 'em out - it's a kick in the a$$.
> 
> ...


Yellow Jersey in Madison?

When Lance won the tour?


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

jochribs said:


> Yellow Jersey in Madison?
> 
> When Lance won the tour?


Yellow Jersey in Madison.

When Greg LeMond won the Worlds. I'm oooooooollllllllddddd. Lance was just a punk kid who hadn't done his first tri back then. 

Hinault and Fignon were the guys to beat then - Lance was still a good chunk out from his first asterisk.


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## JPSeuropa (Jul 12, 2010)

30 years of riding. All I know is that all of the trails hurt when I fall down. New bikes are so much faster everywhere, so the falls hurt more. I primarily ride New England rocks and roots. Flow is a nice break from high speed root chatter now and then. Falling down still happens..._sigh_


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

I like what I like and most times that overlaps with what OP said, but not always and not necessarily every day. Variety is good as long as everyone's having a good time and showing respect to each other and the trail/land.


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## sfmtber (Aug 30, 2004)

As always... variety is key! Although I agree that there's too much emphasis on machine built flow trails nowadays, they are stupid fun to ride and depending on where it is, they can actually be "technical" in that in order to ride them correctly, you need to be able to carry speed, corner well, and manage air... But give me Downieville style hand built adventure any day of the week!


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## 02Slayer (Mar 5, 2004)

30+ years of riding for me, started in Western Mass at college and then on to Breckenridge. Did the Santa Cruz thing next, then SoCal in Orange County, now back in New England. I clearly remember being a newbie myself, and now work at at my LBS part time just for fun when I have a break in my consulting business. I purposefully ride with crews of new riders to show them that "old school" perspective whenever I can. I absolutely love when I hear one of the 21 year olds call back to the pack that there is an "unrideable" feature ahead. Just show them it can be done, and I assure you these young'uns that only know manicured berms and tabletops will absolutely take on the challenge. I've seen this happen myself, and when these big air berm slappers get the rock crawling and drops-to-flat skillset into their game they are super fun to ride with. Honetly, they often don't even see that big rock slightly off to the side of the trail just begging to be cleaned, they are lining up the next berm in their mind, it's a completely different mind set they are mostly unfamilair with. They help me with kickers and doubles, and I show them my take on how to go up, onto, and off of glacial erratics/ boulders. And believe me, they learn fast! OP, I get what you are saying, but these "kids" happen to come into the game now as it is, its not really their fault. I personally love that they all stop and wait (because they are often faster than me!) to see how I'm going to hit a big technical feature. I'm embracing the role, and I love teaching the kids (and newer riders) what is actually possible. And I readily admit to have learned a lot following them down "flow" trails with jumps and gap launches I would probably not have tried on my own. I was them once, hopefully they will do the same down the line in 30 years.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

I recently resurrected my old 1999 Trek OCLV, stripped it down to a singlespeed, and have been reacquainting myself with the roads and trails I used to ride 20-30 years ago. What I'm finding is that there are some guys faster than me, and some guys slower than me, regardless of what kind of bike they are on. Would I be faster on a new rig? Probably, but I don't need to be the fastest guy on the hill anymore. Actually, it's probably a better idea that I'm going a little slower for that time when I make a mistake. These days, I have a higher regard for my personal structural integrity than I used to. There hasn't been a lot of stuff that I can't ride on my old rig, and that list is getting smaller as my brute-force fitness improves. I love the interaction with the terrain that my bike demands. The importance of line, momentum, body position, balance, and control of the machine are not dulled by long travel and big wheels.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

There have been a couple mentions of mountain biking being more inclusive now, as well as friendlier at an entry level point than it was in years past. I'm not sure I agree with this. Actually, I'm sure that I don't.

I can't think of a more open, and 'run what ya brung' atmosphere than what we all had in the early(ier) days. To me it doesn't seem like that so much now. I don't consider paying for a clinic to be an indicator of inclusivity. It's an indicator of the wheels of commerce being greased and generally, some covert NPD getting their ego stroked while shaping new riders or those without natural talent to be their cheerleaders. I'm not trying to be insulting by saying that, but I've seen a lot of these types and I don't really know how else to say it. You generally have folks coming away from these things touting the benefits and suddenly having the audacity to speak as authorities on riding, themselves.

Likewise, maybe I speak for myself, but I don't think I would have been nearly as into riding as I was if trails had been groomed to be 'easier'. There were trails at certain parks that had zero tech, no climbs etc, and we avoided these like the plague. This was on a steel frame with toe baskets and a rigid fork with canti's. Mountain biking was _*about *_riding over challenging terrain, learning to clean a downed tree ( and trying over and over to get it, and if it was insurmountable at the time, it was looked at with a sense of "I will be back for this" and then moving on, never riding around it), feeling the rocks and the roots, learning how to turn, and pushing to get ever faster.

These days, if a tree has fallen over a trail, there's a million comments in the conditions subset etc that there are huge trees in the way. I know this because there's a trail in my general area that I had ridden on the day it opened after Elk Season. I encountered some tiny (maybe 6 to 8 inch in diameter) Aspens that had fallen across the trail and sat maybe a foot off the ground. Absolutely clearable. I took advantage of the opportunity to hop them because I knew without a doubt that these easily walked over trees wouldn't be there for long. Those trees don't have to be removed. They aren't dangerous. Trees like that were literally expected when I was a new rider and made me and my fellow riders better as they gave us something to overcome. That sort of thing these days is a memory. And that's ridiculous.


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

People want the easy button. First it's bikes that are better than they've ever been, and next is "flow trails" that don't really require that much skill or the learning curve is not nearly as steep as natural trails. After that it's freaking e-bikes.


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

The spirit of mountain biking simply involves riding your bicycle off road. That's it. Off road can be Mt. Tam's Repack, or Trestle in Winterpark, or A-line in BC, or a flow trail, or a multi-use single track snaking through a forest...you get the gist. My perspective is pretty simple.

Regarding the comment about $6k CF bikes being ridden by novice riders, so what? If they stick with the sport, good on them! If they give it up, then they'll be selling their $6k uber bike at a discount to go buy whatever fad catches their attention next.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

jochribs said:


> But these kids would have been accepted in the complainers era as well. I mean I get your point, but that's a bit non-sequitur.


I thought about that and I'm sure not or at least much less so. Part of my getting into any leadership was from kids getting chased from properties, and because with the trail inventory changes and all the new ridership came the knowledge and programs that welcomed the families. Now this sport has some organizational and social elements with parallels to my experience and involvement in other activities.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

bitflogger said:


> I thought about that and I'm sure not or at least much less so. Part of my getting into any leadership was from kids getting chased from properties, and because with the trail inventory changes and all the new ridership came the knowledge and programs that welcomed the families. Now this sport has some organizational and social elements with parallels to my experience and involvement in other activities.


Just trying to follow you...are you saying that you weren't/aren't accepted?

Also, can you expand on the rest? Chased off properties etc and also the organizational and social elements parallels?


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## 02Slayer (Mar 5, 2004)

jochribs said:


> Likewise, maybe I speak for myself, but I don't think I would have been nearly as into riding as I was if trails had been groomed to be 'easier'. There were trails at certain parks that had zero tech, no climbs etc, and we avoided these like the plague. This was on a steel frame with toe baskets and a rigid fork with canti's. Mountain biking was _*about *_riding over challenging terrain, learning to clean a downed tree ( and trying over and over to get it, and if it was insurmountable at the time, it was looked at with a sense of "I will be back for this" and then moving on, never riding around it), feeling the rocks and the roots, learning how to turn, and pushing to get ever faster.
> 
> These days, if a tree has fallen over a trail, there's a million comments in the conditions subset etc that there are huge trees in the way. I know this because there's a trail in my general area that I had ridden on the day it opened after Elk Season. I encountered some tiny (maybe 6 to 8 inch in diameter) Aspens that had fallen across the trail and sat maybe a foot off the ground. Absolutely clearable. I took advantage of the opportunity to hop them because I knew without a doubt that these easily walked over trees wouldn't be there for long. Those trees don't have to be removed. They aren't dangerous. Trees like that were literally expected when I was a new rider and made me and my fellow riders better as they gave us something to overcome. That sort of thing these days is a memory. And that's ridiculous.


I agree with this, and my take has been to ride with as many of the local trail builders as I can and really show them that these "obstacles" are the actual point of what can make trail riding so fun. I know anyone can build a trail, that is not who I mean. I'm refering to the few individuals in my area (often very active NEMBA members) that talk to the land managers, get the permits, organize the trail day, and show up to do the work. In my area they have actually removed stone walls that were part of the trail and have been there for literally hundreds of years, because someone complained that it was dangerous. I'm never going to convince that person they are wrong, because to them it probably is dangerous, so my philosphy is to try and convince the people that make the decisions to leave these features in. In fact, I have one very active individual with a new trail building day coming up in a couple weeks that has started now to look for rocks that we can incorporate into the trail and also provide a "B" line to riders that want to opt out for whatever reason. After riding with him a few times he now sees there is a part of the riding population that wants these features (be it a log or boulder) to be a part of the experience and not blocked off with piles of branches and debris. As long as I still get my technical features included, what do I care if someone else rides every B line in the place? I was that dude at some point in my riding career.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

02Slayer said:


> I agree with this, and my take has been to ride with as many of the local trail builders as I can and really show them that these "obstacles" are the actual point of what can make trail riding so fun. I know anyone can build a trail, that is not who I mean. I'm refering to the few individuals in my area (often very active NEMBA members) that talk to the land managers, get the permits, organize the trail day, and show up to do the work. In my area they have actually removed stone walls that were part of the trail and have been there for literally hundreds of years, because someone complained that it was dangerous. I'm never going to convince that person they are wrong, because to them it probably is dangerous, so my philosphy is to try and convince the people that make the decisions to leave these features in. In fact, I have one very active individual with a new trail building day coming up in a couple weeks that has started now to look for rocks that we can incorporate into the trail and also provide a "B" line to riders that want to opt out for whatever reason. After riding with him a few times he now sees there is a part of the riding population that wants these features (be it a log or boulder) to be a part of the experience and not blocked off with piles of branches and debris. As long as I still get my technical features included, what do I care if someone else rides every B line in the place? I was that dude at some point in my riding career.


Agree mostly. Where I disagree is the need for a 'B-line'. Starting in the mid 90's there was no such thing. And there was some seriously scary sh!t that we would encounter. We'd look at it with nothing but respect and excitement. If we didn't have the testicular fortitude to try it at that moment, WE WALKED IT. And that was a motivator to attempt it. Especially when you saw someone actually do it.

Being able to roll every inch of a trail is not a right that needs to be coddled in my opinion. It should be earned by your dedication. That's how it used to be.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jochribs said:


> There have been a couple mentions of mountain biking being more inclusive now, as well as friendlier at an entry level point than it was in years past. I'm not sure I agree with this. Actually, I'm sure that I don't.
> 
> I can't think of a more open, and 'run what ya brung' atmosphere than what we all had in the early(ier) days. To me it doesn't seem like that so much now. I don't consider paying for a clinic to be an indicator of inclusivity. It's an indicator of the wheels of commerce being greased and generally, some covert NPD getting their ego stroked while shaping new riders or those without natural talent to be their cheerleaders. I'm not trying to be insulting by saying that, but I've seen a lot of these types and I don't really know how else to say it. You generally have folks coming away from these things touting the benefits and suddenly having the audacity to speak as authorities on riding, themselves.
> 
> ...


I think this is a load of hooey, spoken from a position of someone who has lost touch with what it's like to start the sport. Rose-colored glasses, the grass is always greener, hindsight, and such.

There are all types of people out there. The people looking for a more attainable approach to riding decades ago weren't approaching riding then because it was intimidating and raw and not everyone wants that. They were doing something else, if they were doing anything at all. Approachability is good. No, we don't want everything to be approachable by everybody, but we DO want some trails to be approachable by families, and we DO want trails to offer people a progression so they have a clear way to progress to the harder and more raw stuff if they wish to pursue that. Many don't want to pursue that. Some don't want mtb riding to be anything more than a casual pedal on something easy. There's nothing wrong with that.

I do feel like mtb has been pushed more towards the wealthier set, but that has less to do with the trails and more to do with bikes. It has always required some means to be able to access trails. In some places, there are more trails closer to where people live, but other places not so much.

I also don't have a problem with removing deadfall. It's dead wood. It rots, anyway. Oftentimes it's well on its way by the time it falls, anyway. If you want to enjoy the challenge of riding over that stuff, then enjoy it while it lasts and wait for more to fall over the trail to enjoy that. Learn to appreciate the changeability of trails. I've seen trails disappear because downfall piled on top of downfall from one or more storms and people stopped using the trail, so the last thing I'm going to wish for is for people to stop cutting out downfall.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Well, the title's spot on for this thread


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jochribs said:


> Those trees don't have to be removed. They aren't dangerous. Trees like that were literally expected when I was a new rider and made me and my fellow riders better as they gave us something to overcome. That sort of thing these days is a memory. And that's ridiculous.


Come do some riding in southern NM and get back to me on that one.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> Agree mostly. Where I disagree is the need for a 'B-line'. Starting in the mid 90's there was no such thing. And there was some seriously scary sh!t that we would encounter. We'd look at it with nothing but respect and excitement. If we didn't have the testicular fortitude to try it at that moment, WE WALKED IT. And that was a motivator to attempt it. Especially when you saw someone actually do it.


I get this for certain trails, but some of my favorite builders are great at incorporating B-lines (or 'climbing lines') that let the trail work for more people while still keeping plenty of challenge available. I think this works well for popular trail systems.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

Everything was better in my day, nothing is good now. That is a tale as old as time and just another bit of human frailty. 

I am especially amused at the assertion that flow = easy. If you think it is easy go faster or ride harder flow trails. Wouldn't A-Line be a flow trail?

Signed: A hardtail rider who like jank and flow and pump tracks and snow and just riding.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

jochribs said:


> Just trying to follow you...are you saying that you weren't/aren't accepted?
> 
> Also, can you expand on the rest? Chased off properties etc and also the organizational and social elements parallels?


I've been in a few waves of trail building since the 1960s. What I meant here is around 20 years ago when free ride and not boomers were digging and others were starting, younger people in this area were not supported and some properties were at risk. To make the places and the sport sustainable some of us organized and matured the diggers and advocacy people in what became an IMBA chapter. Some of us with tech skills also created a forum that aided the social element.

My point here if there is one is not not being a fan reactionary behavior across generations and groups, and being supportive when a new or next cohort gets involved in something.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Come do some riding in southern NM and get back to me on that one.


Expand instead of being a snark, JB?

Are you saying that trees are left where you are? If so, that's pretty good and I respect that. Also, if so, why be a quippy snark? Something bothering ya?

Edit: I'd be more than happy to. Why don't _YOU _show me around?


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Harold said:


> I think this is a load of hooey, spoken from a position of someone who has lost touch with what it's like to start the sport. Rose-colored glasses, the grass is always greener, hindsight, and such.


I really can't even read the rest because you disregarded my description of what it was like to start, while saying I lost touch with that very same thing.

Reading comprehension Harold. Try it before writing a paragraph. Excuse me, paragraphs.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

I'm hoping MTB becomes uncool like skateboarding did for a while.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Harold said:


> I think this is a load of hooey, spoken from a position of someone who has lost touch with what it's like to start the sport. Rose-colored glasses, the grass is always greener, hindsight, and such.
> 
> There are all types of people out there. The people looking for a more attainable approach to riding decades ago weren't approaching riding then because it was intimidating and raw and not everyone wants that. They were doing something else, if they were doing anything at all. Approachability is good. No, we don't want everything to be approachable by everybody, but we DO want some trails to be approachable by families, and we DO want trails to offer people a progression so they have a clear way to progress to the harder and more raw stuff if they wish to pursue that. Many don't want to pursue that. Some don't want mtb riding to be anything more than a casual pedal on something easy. There's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> I do feel like mtb has been pushed more towards the wealthier set, but that has less to do with the trails and more to do with bikes. It has always required some means to be able to access trails. In some places, there are more trails closer to where people live, but other places not so much.


You make some valid points. People on bikes - generally speaking - is a good thing. It's not practical to demand MTB newbies learn to ride on rigid 26ers with cantis, just as its not practical to demand young people learn to drive in cars with manual transmissions. Those things just aren't readily accessible, and are nearly obsolete.

That said, I have an issue with eBikes when they allow people to go faster, or access more technical terrain, than their skill level can handle. I've seen this both on the road and in the dirt.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Ok, my curiosity got the better of me, and I read the rest of your post.



Harold said:


> I think this is a load of hooey, spoken from a position of someone who has lost touch with what it's like to start the sport. Rose-colored glasses, the grass is always greener, hindsight, and such.


Interesting (ironic) that you start by referring to what *I *said as a load of hooey.



Harold said:


> There are all types of people out there. The people looking for a more attainable approach to riding decades ago weren't approaching riding then because it was intimidating and raw and not everyone wants that. They were doing something else, if they were doing anything at all. Approachability is good. No, we don't want everything to be approachable by everybody, but we DO want some trails to be approachable by families, and we DO want trails to offer people a progression so they have a clear way to progress to the harder and more raw stuff if they wish to pursue that. Many don't want to pursue that. Some don't want mtb riding to be anything more than a casual pedal on something easy. There's nothing wrong with that.


This isn't a legitimate arguement. Not everything was intimidating and raw in the past. But it had a lot more challenge in areas than there are now for the most part. What has changed is making everything inclusive for everyone. Everywhere. That isn't how it should be. My argument isn't against places that are easier to ride. I'm all for that. I'm not all for making every place for everyone. If it's not your/my cup of tea, then simply do not ride there. 


Harold said:


> I do feel like mtb has been pushed more towards the wealthier set, but that has less to do with the trails and more to do with bikes. It has always required some means to be able to access trails. In some places, there are more trails closer to where people live, but other places not so much.


Agree on it being pushed towards a wealthier set. Not sure whether or not that contributes to the issues we are discussing or not. 


Harold said:


> I also don't have a problem with removing deadfall. It's dead wood. It rots, anyway. Oftentimes it's well on its way by the time it falls, anyway. If you want to enjoy the challenge of riding over that stuff, then enjoy it while it lasts and wait for more to fall over the trail to enjoy that. Learn to appreciate the changeability of trails. I've seen trails disappear because downfall piled on top of downfall from one or more storms and people stopped using the trail, so the last thing I'm going to wish for is for people to stop cutting out downfall.


This is an exaggeration of my point. I wasn't saying to leave tangles of deadfall on the trail, making the trail impassable for anyone except for a raccoon, and I don't know why ANYONE would even latch on to such a premise except to have something to say. Furthermore, I'm talking about sound trees that have fallen across the trail for one reason or another. This was not an uncommon thing in the past, and it seems that once a certain entity got involved, that all pretty much stopped. Unless, of course some man-made facsimile got built. Your comment here suggests that if one tree falls across the trail, that equals 100, laid like matchsticks and the trail will be subsequently closed because of this. You are a smart individual and I'm surprised you would use such a premise as it's just not even realistic.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I get this for certain trails, but some of my favorite builders are great at incorporating B-lines (or 'climbing lines') that let the trail work for more people while still keeping plenty of challenge available. I think this works well for popular trail systems.


Ok, I can get that.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

02Slayer said:


> I absolutely love when I hear one of the 21 year olds call back to the pack that there is an "unrideable" feature ahead. Just show them it can be done, and I assure you these young'uns that only know manicured berms and tabletops will absolutely take on the challenge.


I was at a bike park recently with a relatively new rider. He was hitting some pretty big drops and tables, but only the nicely made wooden or smooth dirt ones. Any time there was a natural feature like a rock outcrop, he'd steer clear of it, even if it was relatively small. I asked him what the deal was with that? He said he doesn't feel confident on rocks. Dude will hit a 5 foot wooden drop without thinking but can't launch a 3 foot rock ledge. The difference? One is perfectly designed by builders to allow for a perfect landing so long as you let the bike roll, while the other is an irregular, slightly unpredictable feature that requires actual bike handling skills to master.


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## bdamschen (Jan 4, 2006)

looks easy from here said:


> It seems to me you should be glad the hordes aren't clogging up the style trails you prefer.


I've got a friend that is an ex pro dh racer. At the local lift-served mountain, he spends all day riding the gnarliest, techiest on the hill. If he does a full pull top to bottom, I never see his back tire after we drop in until we get back to the lifts. Never deviates. After a weekend of riding with him, I mentioned that we should mix it up and go hit some of the jump trails on the other side of the mountain, mainly so I didn't feel so bad about the flogging my wheels and suspension were taking on the gnarly trails. He responded that he doesn't ride over there because there are too many people to get stuck behind.


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## bdamschen (Jan 4, 2006)

kpdemello said:


> After finally getting them out on some gnarly old school tech trails, one says to me, "Oh, these aren't real mountain biking trails." Oh really? Because I can tell you for a fact they were cut by mountain bikers for mountain bikers.
> View attachment 1944935


..so uh, want to point me in the general direction of this Devil's Throat trail?


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Green Mountain Trails in Vermont. If you like steep, rocky single track, it's sublime.


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## mactweek (Oct 3, 2011)

As my good friend likes to say. My favorite trail is whichever one I am riding.
We don't all need to like the same thing. But I do love an old style narrow, tight. and even rocky trail.


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## Fr0hickey (May 25, 2021)

smartyiak said:


> As a person who gets on his bike at trailhead and then rides around for 1-5hrs...I whole hearted agree with your sentiment. In fact, I've never been on a proper "flow trail" or ever done any lift service. Get on bike...ride...sometimes: walk around. That's it.


Agreed. Though for me, its walk my bike... ride sometimes. I just started last month.


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## Fr0hickey (May 25, 2021)

spaightlabs said:


> Yellow Jersey in Madison.
> 
> When Greg LeMond won the Worlds. I'm oooooooollllllllddddd. Lance was just a punk kid who hadn't done his first tri back then.
> 
> Hinault and Fignon were the guys to beat then - Lance was still a good chunk out from his first asterisk.


I think you mean Lance was just a punk kid who hadn't met his first blood doping needle.


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## NorCal_In_AZ (Sep 26, 2019)

Been following along this thread and I’m a new rider in compared to most y’all. But here’s a take from an “outsiders” view. Tech and big dollars spent aren’t making just mountain biking easier. I started learning long range shooting around 2008. It wasn’t brand new, but compared to today it was a challenge. Spent time learning so much and upgrading everything. Today you can go buy a rifle/scope/ammo from the store and start hitting stuff 500+ yards away pretty easily.

We live in an amazing time. Technology and manufacturing, produce products of quality we never thought possible. Information flows freely and you can learn (if it’s correct not is another topic) just anything you want from the palm of your hand.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

NorCal_In_AZ said:


> Been following along this thread and I'm a new rider in compared to most y'all. But here's a take from an "outsiders" view. Tech and big dollars spent aren't making just mountain biking easier. I started learning long range shooting around 2008. It wasn't brand new, but compared to today it was a challenge. Spent time learning so much and upgrading everything. Today you can go buy a rifle/scope/ammo from the store and start hitting stuff 500+ yards away pretty easily.
> 
> We live in an amazing time. Technology and manufacturing, produce products of quality we never thought possible. *Information flows freely and you can learn (if it's correct not is another topic) just anything you want from the palm of your hand*.


IMO, shared knowledge is one of the very best things about the magical intarwebz. Discussion forums like this are powerful tools for helping people learn from those who have already been there and done that.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> Ok, I can get that.


What I really like it they tend to keep the harder stuff in the main line and natural flow of the trail, while the easier (but not always 'easy') line is off to the side, where people are likely going to end up braiding something in any anyway.
Kind of heads things off at the pass as far as people going out and dumbing down trails.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jochribs said:


> Expand instead of being a snark, JB?
> 
> Are you saying that trees are left where you are? If so, that's pretty good and I respect that. Also, if so, why be a quippy snark? Something bothering ya?
> 
> Edit: I'd be more than happy to. Why don't _YOU _show me around?


Man, really sorry. The last thing I want to do is come off snarky, honestly I didn't mean it that way. Sometimes the internet doesn't translate well.

I just thought it was kind of funny because there are trails around here (and a lot of other places out West) that are so covered with blown down trees and such that they're practically unrideable. I wish someone would come out and clear some.

Seriously my post was meant to be a light hearted joke, definitely not a mean jab of any sort.


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## Tanalaras (May 21, 2021)

Love this. I recently got back into biking after a few year break. I learned quickly how behind on everything I was. Both of my bikes, a Haibike Spirit and a Giant Faith III would both be sophomores in highschool this year if they were people. And as much as I love Northwoods and Cedar Glades, I love the adventure of finding my own trails on my old 26ers. I'm catching up though. I've got a snazzy new Talon IV on the way in a few weeks and I'm slowly learning this new culture, just enough, though to keep in touch with what's going on while staying to myself and enjoying what was.


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## blackfly (May 1, 2005)

kpdemello said:


> I love mountain biking. My addiction began nearly two decades ago, when for the princely sum of $100, I purchased my friend's well-ridden 1997 Stumpjumper hardtail with a 100mm elastomer fork. On my first ride, I struggled mightily, pedaling through an unmarked, rocky, rooty trail with tight turns and steep climbs. And I fell. More than once. But man, what an adventure.
> 
> View attachment 1944930
> View attachment 1944932
> ...


I have ridden the Shore for 41 years and couldn't of said this better myself. The worse part is the mentality of entitlement is not only in the riders but the biking associations. NSMBA's "trails for all, trails forever" neglects to account for the fact not everyone is equipped to ride. Not with the bike mind you. But mentality, guts and character to do it. Instead, the NSMBA dumbs down everything to cater to the said riders. They don't improve their skills, develop for further challenges and locally you wonder why so few go down tech/gnar chunky trails. This of course parleys into the vicious circle of tech trails then getting groomed or decommissioned since, it is pointed out, no one rides them. Then you have risk, which is a joke. Yes, there is risk, but the risk of injury going down a bermed trail fast is just as real. Interesting that I recall, 20 years ago for example, no one thought of smoothing out trails.....you rode them or got better until you did. Don't know what changed. I suppose the mentality of riding you see today is reflective of society.....

And no armour, no gloves, flat soled shoes on flat pedals......anyone know what a torn patellar flap is?

Correlation and causation? Notice the prevalence of ebikes with the increase of said smooth trails? Its not going to get any better.

But you reap what you sow, so whom is really to blame? Smooth trails are very labour intensive in terms of work, upkeep and maintenance. The high usage rate means this even more.....round and round it goes.

The worse part is that not only is the past being removed, as in making these smooth trails they hijack old school ones to use, they don't keep the original lines intact for those whom would like to use them as a preference. And really, once the past is forgotten....

I get it that us older riders have the skills, but it is not like we were born with them. We built them up over time with sometimes taking a lump or two. Life is like that too. Anyone can do it, but when the opportunities get less and less numerous and you see riders not even seek them out..... legacy indeed.


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## Roge (May 5, 2017)

I've been MTBing since 1986, been more of a roadie until the last couple of years. A couple of old curmudgeon observations:

BITD the non-flow trails (and nothing flowed back then) were extremely rugged in our area, even just to get into the trail systems. If you took a newbie they were swearing off the sport before you really got in.

I still occasionally ride those non-flow trails, but not nearly as much these days as I'm 58 and the price of failure increases each day. But over the years those trails have all gotten tougher to ride! Lots of erosion, more exposed roots. I do love plowing through some of that stuff with my 2.8s.

The flow trails are really good for the grass roots development for the sports. And I love seeing the skills parks.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Man, really sorry. The last thing I want to do is come off snarky, honestly I didn't mean it that way. Sometimes the internet doesn't translate well.
> 
> I just thought it was kind of funny because there are trails around here (and a lot of other places out West) that are so covered with blown down trees and such that they're practically unrideable. I wish someone would come out and clear some.
> 
> Seriously my post was meant to be a light hearted joke, definitely not a mean jab of any sort.


No, I'm really sorry. I figured you were being dismissive. I clearly was wrong and I'm sorry about it.

I agree, too many trees down is no good, but a nice tree...topping out at about 18" to 24" is awesome. If they are far enough apart that they're in different sections of trail...basically some distance between them, that's awesome. This was the way it was when I started riding and for a good run of years after my start.

A bunch of matchsticks because no one is dealing with anything or truly massive trees that block the trail are no good. But I have also next to never seen rotted trees go down across the trail, as Harold suggested. Is that possible? Sure. But that's not been a consistent thing in my experience.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> What I really like it they tend to keep the harder stuff in the main line and natural flow of the trail, while the easier (but not always 'easy') line is off to the side, where people are likely going to end up braiding something in any anyway.
> Kind of heads things off at the pass as far as people going out and dumbing down trails.


Ugh, the dreaded braid. I think that is definitely a condition of our much larger numbers.

I honestly don't know what was different in our minds back in the day from many that will braid now. When we couldn't clean it, we walked the section that we couldn't clean. We didn't go around. We went through what we couldn't conquer at that moment. I think it takes a certain sense of entitlement to make another route than the one that is there.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

blackfly said:


> I have ridden the Shore for 41 years and couldn't of said this better myself. The worse part is the mentality of entitlement is not only in the riders but the biking associations. NSMBA's "trails for all, trails forever" neglects to account for the fact not everyone is equipped to ride. Not with the bike mind you. But mentality, guts and character to do it. Instead, the NSMBA dumbs down everything to cater to the said riders. They don't improve their skills, develop for further challenges and locally you wonder why so few go down tech/gnar chunky trails. This of course parleys into the vicious circle of tech trails then getting groomed or decommissioned since, it is pointed out, no one rides them. Then you have risk, which is a joke. Yes, there is risk, but the risk of injury going down a bermed trail fast is just as real. Interesting that I recall, 20 years ago for example, no one thought of smoothing out trails.....you rode them or got better until you did. Don't know what changed. I suppose the mentality of riding you see today is reflective of society.....
> 
> And no armour, no gloves, flat soled shoes on flat pedals......anyone know what a torn patellar flap is?
> 
> ...


This, dude. This.

I can't say I agree about the armor and gloves, God damn I hate that stuff, but we can't all agree about _everything. _

Anyway, well f***ing said.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

kpdemello said:


> These folks buy $6,000 carbon superbikes with 150mm of top-quality suspension and use them to tear down flow trails, believing their ability to rail bermed corners at high speeds makes them skilled riders.


I started (riding trails) in 1993. I had a hybrid type bike. Rigid. Cantilevers. Triple. Toe clips. I rode it anywhere I could find dirt to put it on. Plenty of people gave me looks down their noses for what I was riding and what I was wearing. I moved up to full suspension in '99 and spent a few years riding that. Fast forward to now and I'm on a carbon full squish with 120mm front and back that would have cost 5-6 grand if I paid retail for it. Can I rail a berm? Not at all, and I paid for a two day skills class last year. Can I hammer for an hour straight with my heart rate pegged at 180 beats a minute and ride the entire trail network where most people just repeat the same easy parts over and over? Yes. Does that make me special? No.



jochribs said:


> Your comment here suggests that if one tree falls across the trail, that equals 100, laid like matchsticks and the trail will be subsequently closed because of this. You are a smart individual and I'm surprised you would use such a premise as it's just not even realistic.


He brings up a valid point though, actually not far off from what you say he's smart enough to see as unrealistic.

I live 2 miles away from a network of trails. I'm out there all the time. It seems like there may be one other person that ever clears anything off of that trail. I get a precious hour where I can have fun on the bike, but I end up picking up all the branches and hacking up all the trees. I wonder how long it would be before you just couldn't ride there anymore if I stopped doing it. 4 out of my last 5 rides weren't even rides. I spent 3 trips cleaning up different thirds of the system and got one good ride after that, but then another storm came through and my next ride was spent getting off the bike every 15 feet to pick something else up. I'm seriously considering getting rid of my clipless pedals for that reason alone.

It's getting so bad I'm starting to hate riding. How come I have to do all the work and everyone else gets to enjoy the ride after I'm done? I'd like to enjoy the ride too.



jochribs said:


> I agree, too many trees down is no good, but a nice tree...topping out at about 18" to 24" is awesome.


I can only bunny hop about 8 inches. And I do it wrong. I do the English thing and haven't been able to figure out how to do it the right way to get good air, but at least I can do that. For all the people that can bunny hop 2 feet, there are probably 5-10X people that can't. Big stuff needs to be cleared off so most people can ride, else we turn off people who are new to the sport too quickly and then it's just a playground for the elite.

I'm not trying to knock you for loving a good tree to bunny hop. I wish I could love it too.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jochribs said:


> I agree, too many trees down is no good, but a nice tree...topping out at about 18" to 24" is awesome. If they are far enough apart that they're in different sections of trail...basically some distance between them, that's awesome. This was the way it was when I started riding and for a good run of years after my start.


Awesome for some, we all have our favorite kind of trails.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I started (riding trails) in 1993. I had a hybrid type bike. Rigid. Cantilevers. Triple. Toe clips. I rode it anywhere I could find dirt to put it on. Plenty of people gave me looks down their noses for what I was riding and what I was wearing. I moved up to full suspension in '99 and spent a few years riding that. Fast forward to now and I'm on a carbon full squish with 120mm front and back that would have cost 5-6 grand if I paid retail for it. Can I rail a berm? Not at all, and I paid for a two day skills class last year. Can I hammer for an hour straight with my heart rate pegged at 180 beats a minute and ride the entire trail network where most people just repeat the same easy parts over and over? Yes. Does that make me special? No.


I don't know what you're getting at here.



KobayashiMaru said:


> He brings up a valid point though, actually not far off from what you say he's smart enough to see as unrealistic.
> 
> I live 2 miles away from a network of trails. I'm out there all the time. It seems like there may be one other person that ever clears anything off of that trail. I get a precious hour where I can have fun on the bike, but I end up picking up all the branches and hacking up all the trees. I wonder how long it would be before you just couldn't ride there anymore if I stopped doing it. 4 out of my last 5 rides weren't even rides. I spent 3 trips cleaning up different thirds of the system and got one good ride after that, but then another storm came through and my next ride was spent getting off the bike every 15 feet to pick something else up. I'm seriously considering getting rid of my clipless pedals for that reason alone.
> 
> It's getting so bad I'm starting to hate riding. How come I have to do all the work and everyone else gets to enjoy the ride after I'm done? I'd like to enjoy the ride too.


It sounds to me like what you've been doing here is machete work, rather than cutting out large areas of matchstick trees with a chainsaw...no? I'm really trying to stick with ya here, but what does providing trial maintenance have to do with me talking about not cutting out EVERY god damned tree that falls across the trail? I get that you having to do all of this yourself can be a rather daunting task. But that's an issue of getting groups together to help, or keep doing it yourself, or stop riding there. I see no other avenue, and I really don't see how this links directly to what I'm talking about, which is leaving rideable, cleanable obstructions on the trail sometimes. It doesn't all have to get cut the **** out. If someone can't clear it, too bad, learn, or walk, or go somewhere else and cry on smooth trails about it.



KobayashiMaru said:


> I can only bunny hop about 8 inches. And I do it wrong. I do the English thing and haven't been able to figure out how to do it the right way to get good air, but at least I can do that. For all the people that can bunny hop 2 feet, there are probably 5-10X people that can't. Big stuff needs to be cleared off so most people can ride, else we turn off people who are new to the sport too quickly and then it's just a playground for the elite.
> 
> I'm not trying to knock you for loving a good tree to bunny hop. I wish I could love it too.


Goals man. Goals. I didn't pop out of my moms you know what, able to bunny hop. I struggled, I crashed, I learned. Same with everyone i rode with.

A playground for the elite?? No, incorrect. It's was an even playing field where the terrain was what it was, and you were rewarded for your effort. You weren't given a medal for just showing up, and oddly, back then we didn't expect one. That's where the mindset has changed. We got into this sport in the early days because we were DRAWN to it, not because we got instant gratification. We WANTED to get better, and we loved what we were doing. So we KEPT doing it. And we got better because of that. And on bikes that are utterly laughable now.

Ugh, when I read what you are saying here, it makes me think of this as an analogy...

I'm in my mid forties now and I'm not as fast as I was. What if I was to go to the double pace line road rides that I used to make pulls on the front of, and say...

_ "Guys, this is just faster than I can muster right now. I think we need to be inclusive and slow things down a bit. Whadya say guys??"_

But to that you'll say, "I don't need to ride with them", right? And to that I'd say I agree. Either I put up, or STFU. And I don't expect that ride to cater to ME.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Awesome for some, we all have our favorite kind of trails.


Right, but let's turn this _'inclusion' _thing around for a moment, shall we? If things are to be made in catering to the uninitiated, or those whose preference differs, then why can there not be something that forces those same people to get off of their 35# bikes and climb over? Even Stephen??

I see no difference, except for the fact that I'm in the minority in regards to what _I think _should stay in the trail.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jochribs said:


> Right, but let's turn this _'inclusion' _thing around for a moment, shall we? If things are to be made in catering to the uninitiated, or those whose preference differs, then why can there not be something that forces those same people to get off of their 35# bikes and climb over? Even Stephen??


I'm just saying that preferences differ, some like blue and some like red. Some like both. Neither is wrong. Personally if I have a choice I'll do the type of riding I like best but if not I'll make do with what's available. Generally I go with the flow. (pun intended)


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm just saying that preferences differ, some like blue and some like red. Some like both. Neither is wrong. Personally if I have a choice I'll do the type of riding I like best but if not I'll make do with what's available. Generally I go with the flow. (pun intended)


I'm picking up what you're putting down JB


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Yeah, I debated taking the time to share my thoughts. It will probably seem like I'm crying here, but honestly, there was a reason I stopped dropping by this forum a few months ago. Like someone can gripe about people clearing out every GD tree from a trail and feel like they're ok in making that complaint, I observe that almost any exchange between people here is just an altercation of some sort waiting to happen, and do we always have to start bitching at each other in every GD thread simply because people have different opinions?


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

I don't miss the days when we had to chase crazy buffalos with sticks and rocks when today we can just go to the supermarket and get a perfectly cut piece of meat.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I can only bunny hop about 8 inches. And I do it wrong. I do the English thing and haven't been able to figure out how to do it the right way to get good air, but at least I can do that. For all the people that can bunny hop 2 feet, there are probably 5-10X people that can't. Big stuff needs to be cleared off so most people can ride, else we turn off people who are new to the sport too quickly and then it's just a playground for the elite.
> 
> I'm not trying to knock you for loving a good tree to bunny hop. I wish I could love it too.


You don't need to be able to bunny hop at all to get over logs, etc.
There are far easier techniques.

If someone can't be bothered to learn how to ride over a log or rock, and at the same time feels that they are entitled to have trail systems dumbed down to a level where they never run into anything they need to -God forbid- get off their bike and push it for a couple seconds, then they simply aren't cut out for the sport. There is no shortage of pavement and rail trails out there.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

Been an avid road and CX for years now, finally got my first modern road bike (used) last fall. I've ridden with mtb friends on my cross bike...42 mm tires, no suspension, drop bars.

All I can say is my full suspension Devinci with 2.2 tires is amazing. Every time I ride I'm like..."Woah, I can't believe I just rode over that, no problem!"

Now, if my bunny hopping just wasn't so terrible, I'd be all set
My bike is overkill for the trails I ride...and my ability. Still, it has been a blast to ride in the woods and on the rocks and not deal with aggressive motorists on country roads. I'm hooked!


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## Prognosticator (Feb 15, 2021)

I started MTBing in 1992. Fully rigid steel Diamond Back with cantilevers. The graduate school I was attending at the time gave me a fat stipend and a class to teach. I had more money than I knew what to do with. I loved MTBing and bikes so much that I bought a Fat Chance Yo Eddy. Upgraded the crap out of that thing over the years. I still have it and will never give it up.

When I graduated, I won a fellowship that I could do anywhere in the country. Because I loved MTBing so much, I moved to Waynesville, NC, and lived on a cattle ranch in a valley called Crabtree. I didn't have a real job, just a monthly fellowship check rolling in, so I rolled myself all over the mountains in Western North Carolina. Just one adventure after another rolling through rhododendron tunnels and through streams, ferns, mountain laurel so bright green that the leaves reflected the sunshine and fall colors that made me cry they were so beautiful.

During deer hunting season, I wore an orange vest while I rode. Sometimes, I saw helicopters flying low to the hills. The guy who owned the cattle ranch where I lived was a retired Miami cop. I asked him about the helicopters and he told me the mountains around there hid some of the most prolific pot farms in the country. He warned me, If you ever stumble on one of those pot farms when you're out riding, you best get the hell out of there or you could get killed.

That was how I started mountain biking. It was the time of my life. I live in NE Georgia and still make it up to Pisgah from time to time. I am heading to Brevard last weekend in September.

I seek out the gnarliest stuff I can stand because it's what I learned to ride and it reminds me of the freest I've ever been. I've never shuttled nor intentionally ridden a flow trail.

Sunday I was riding some trails about 30 minutes from my house. Not a lot of elevation but rocks, roots, streams and wet. I was riding with a new friend who is straddling a Giant E-bike. We came across some guys who were sitting astride their bikes looking confused.

One of them asked me, Do you ride these trails often?

I told him, Yes.

He said, It's just roots and rocks and streams.

He was complaining

I wanted to say, Hell, yeah, it is! And it's awesome!

But I didn't. And there I was with a riding partner humming along.

I personally know the two old retired guys who built those trails. One them is named Bill, and I have helped him in the past. He's out there a lot working on those trails. In fact, he's cutting some more and I help him when I can

When I rode off, I was just glad Bill wasn't around to hear that sumbitch complaining about his trails. It would have broke his heart.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

kpdemello said:


> I love mountain biking. My addiction began nearly two decades ago, when for the princely sum of $100, I purchased my friend's well-ridden 1997 Stumpjumper hardtail with a 100mm elastomer fork. On my first ride, I struggled mightily, pedaling through an unmarked, rocky, rooty trail with tight turns and steep climbs. And I fell. More than once. But man, what an adventure.
> 
> View attachment 1944930
> View attachment 1944932
> ...


Hey, I've ridden that, "Devil's Throat". Part of the Green Mountain Trails. Thought it was one of the best trails in the network. Tough to clean the first time through if I recall correctly. Lots of old school tech.

Mountain biking has become more about the quick, short lived, thrill of fun rather than the hard earned satisfaction of overcoming a challenge. I still love it though.


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## AMac4108 (Oct 8, 2008)

I enjoy both tech and flow depending on the day. I do worry that almost every new trail being built around my area at least is a flow trail (and beginner-ish rating). I wish they would build more intermediate type stuff, but I'm hoping that will come as the local mountain bike community matures. It wasn't that long ago that we only had a couple trails to pick from anyways.

And while I love all the GPS tech that we have these days, I do miss getting lost in the woods! Some of those rides are my best biking memories.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

slapheadmofo said:


> You don't need to be able to bunny hop at all to get over logs, etc.
> There are far easier techniques.
> 
> If someone can't be bothered to learn how to ride over a log or rock, and at the same time feels that they are entitled to have trail systems dumbed down to a level where they never run into anything they need to -God forbid- get off their bike and push it for a couple seconds, then they simply aren't cut out for the sport. There is no shortage of pavement and rail trails out there.


I understand that. There have been trees I have left alone after they've fallen because they can be ridden over. If they're in a spot where it won't impede the... well, I hate to use this word here... "flow" of things, no big deal. If they're in a corner or curve where you'd probably slide sideways and wipe out as you rolled over it, on an uphill where you'd stall and fall off your bike, or across the trail on a downhill where you have to rob yourself of all momentum to negotiate the obstacle, they have to go. Being able to clear something is a needed skill, and for lots of things I can't bunny hop, I roll over them, but when trees across a trail, no matter the size, get to where you can't maintain speed, and enough of them are present to where the ride becomes a frustrating skills course or trials experience instead of just riding a trail, the herd needs to be thinned.

I'm fine with dismounting and getting over something if I have to, but if I can haul a chainsaw (or four, with plenty of other gear and an extra set of hands) into the woods and get two huge trees off of a section of the trail that is arguably one of the most enjoyable flowy sections out there, I'm doing that. Like here:










Which ended up looking like this:










As for insinuating people should get off trails and ride pavement or a rails-to-trails ride, again, at a certain point when all you're doing is clearing obstacles, it's not really a mountain bike trail, it's a trials playground or a skills course, and that's fine if that's what you want, but the majority of people on mountain bikes want to _ride_ them, not constantly negotiate them over stuff for an hour and never see their average speed above 2 mph.



jochribs said:


> I encountered some tiny (maybe 6 to 8 inch in diameter) Aspens that had fallen across the trail and sat maybe a foot off the ground. Absolutely clearable.


If they're laying on the ground, yes, clearable. Up in the air above the trail? Are they completely static, to where you put your front wheel on them, let it roll off the other side and the rest of your bike rolls over it because both ends of the tree are completely supported to bear weight, or are they more like springboards where one end of the tree bounces around? The former I could probably clear without a bunny hop, the latter, it would probably bounce me off of my bicycle, and then it's a get-off-the-bike situation again. Most people want to ride, not get off their bike all the time.

Obviously to you those sort of fallen trees are absolutely clearable, but way more people would have to get off the bike to keep riding the trail.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

I like to stack up small logs on either side of a downfall like that, and make it into a roller, when possible. Everybody wins.

The last log roller I made about 7 months ago is still there, and most of the time, people have to move any and all obstructions.... so I guess it's a hit.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I understand that. There have been trees I have left alone after they've fallen because they can be ridden over. If they're in a spot where it won't impede the... well, I hate to use this word here... "flow" of things, no big deal. If they're in a corner or curve where you'd probably slide sideways and wipe out as you rolled over it, on an uphill where you'd stall and fall off your bike, or across the trail on a downhill where you have to rob yourself of all momentum to negotiate the obstacle, they have to go. Being able to clear something is a needed skill, and for lots of things I can't bunny hop, I roll over them, but when trees across a trail, no matter the size, get to where you can't maintain speed, and enough of them are present to where the ride becomes a frustrating skills course or trials experience instead of just riding a trail, the herd needs to be thinned.
> 
> I'm fine with dismounting and getting over something if I have to, but if I can haul a chainsaw (or four, with plenty of other gear and an extra set of hands) into the woods and get two huge trees off of a section of the trail that is arguably one of the most enjoyable flowy sections out there, I'm doing that. Like here:
> 
> ...


Those pics depress the sh!t out of me. That is a perfect situation to leave them. Solid oak. Really stable (since you won't tolerate an ounce of movement in the tree). You had a nice hop over to down, to the low section in the next one, just needed to remove the little sapling (which you did anyway). That is precisely the sort of stuff that we'd leave where I am from. Frustrating for the uninitiated at first, but so amazing and unique once you get it. What makes what you took out special is the turn in between. Sigh. That's sad.

To each their own.

The part where you respond directly to me...boy, you sure have a lot of specifics for getting over a small tree. Often times the small ones that are off the ground (say around 6 to 8 in diameter, maybe a little bigger, variable height off the ground) are going to have a little movement to them if you put your front wheel on them before you lurch it over ( there's a name for that, and I don't recall it. Don't GAS though, because I can do it better than I can name it) but I've never found that to be a problem. You're only touching it for a split second.

I am actually really depressed by your attitude towards these features and the pics of great trail features that aren't looked at as opportunities, but annoyances.

What has happened to mountain biking? No vision.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I guess we should just build trails, then abandon them. So when there's tons of deadfall, or a rockslide, so be it.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> I guess we should just build trails, then abandon them. So when there's tons of deadfall, or a rockslide, so be it.


If you think that stuff in his pics is not rideable, then I don't know what else to say to you. Leaving that stuff isn't indicative of abandoning a trail. It's allowing it to change and grow. No, you don't leave massive stuff that is entirely impassable, but these pics are not examples of that sort of thing, they are FAR from it. Plus if it's THAT BIG, then a simple reroute would take less time than to haul in your STIHL and get your Paul friggin Bunyan on. I'm not knocking STIHL, I own a 261 for firewood etc.

This is the state of MTBing these days. Slack and long bikes that most can't even use to their potential (but they're STABLE!!), hands and extremities clad in 'look the part' protection from even the hint of a scrape against god-knows-what, and proclivity towards easy, and supplemented power.

Dear god.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I think you're projecting too much. Most of the trails, at least around here, are multi-use trails. So they also have to serve equestrians and hikers. Which, leaving that deadfall in place absolutely does not. We don't really have any mountain bike specific trails. Trails do change and evolve, but they have to meet the users they were intended for.

You're also looking back fondly at a time that's been gone for a long time. Things change, technology improves. Bikes have certainly improved. But hey, I'm not stopping you from riding a canti braked rigid bike like it's 1993. No one's stopping you. But, to be honest, I don't miss my Wahoo.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

At my home trail network, we would ride these sorts of trails with these features at RACE PACE for our Thursday night training races. Forwards and backwards. These rides still go on, every Thursday during the summer. It's really funny, I used to think that we were just like everyone else across the country. Apparently not. 

No wonder there was such a push against the semi-modern (mid 2000's to early 2010's) bikes.People didn't know how to ride the things anyway. Bring on the stable bikes and ADA compliant trails.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> I think you're projecting too much. Most of the trails, at least around here, are multi-use trails. So they also have to serve equestrians and hikers. Which, leaving that deadfall in place absolutely does not. We don't really have any mountain bike specific trails. Trails do change and evolve, but they have to meet the users they were intended for.
> 
> You're also looking back fondly at a time that's been gone for a long time. Things change, technology improves. Bikes have certainly improved. But hey, I'm not stopping you from riding a canti braked rigid bike like it's 1993. No one's stopping you. But, to be honest, I don't miss my Wahoo.


Nope, you're so wrong that you don't even have a realistic perspective of what I'm talking about, and thusly you don't know what you're talking about. This stuff still goes on. And it's being done on these new breed bikes now.

Seriously imagine that. From the days of old OCLV's, Wahoo's whatever you want to pick...to today with 'downcountry' bikes and yada yada yada, what I am describing is STILL normal where I hail from. It's really no wonder that the people that would come from other areas to ride with us would complain up and down that this stuff needed to be removed, needed to be changed. And we'd let them know in no uncertain terms that was NOT going to happen. If they stuck around, they learned to love it, and they became much better riders for it.

Edit: I mean, it's so unbelievably telling that you equate what I'm talking about to riding with old canti's and that things have 'improved'.

I can do what I am saying on my '95 GT Tequesta, and I can do it on my 2020 Top Fuel, and EVERY single bike I have had in between. The same goes for everyone I grew riding with from the mid 90's on.

I am slack-jawed at the subject matter in this thread.


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## Fr0hickey (May 25, 2021)

The other positive that I see with what KobayashiMaru did in cutting the fallen timber is to keep the existing trail complete with the path any water runoff would take. Leaving debris will impede the flow of water and cut a new path for water.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Ah, the same, tired "old school jank" vs modern trail building design and construction argument. Right up there with, "When I was young, I walked 8 miles through the snow to school".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I stil l don't know what "your area" is. Maybe a log in the trail is the only real tech you get? Whatever, this was in my Facebook feed yesterday, regarding rock slides on a VERY local trail to me. I suspect we live in VERY different places.

pulled the pic, since I don't own it, and I can't properly link it either. It'll be a while before Green Mountain's opened, and you can do a full Lemmon drop though.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

dysfunction said:


> I guess we should just build trails, then abandon them. So when there's tons of deadfall, or a rockslide, so be it.


Yep mountain biking has gone soft. I only ride through thorn bushes and mosquito infested swamps...one handed of course so I can punch myself in the nuts the whole time.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

waltaz said:


> Ah, the same, tired "old school jank" vs modern trail building design and construction argument. Right up there with, "When I was young, I walked 8 miles through the snow to school".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, because that's what I'm talking about equates to?

Could you EVER do what I'm talking about? I sure hope you could because it's not really a big deal. If you are popping into this thread to troll and equate being able to negotiate logs on a trail of hero dirt through deciduous forest to _"walking 8 miles through snow to school" _and really think you have a viable comment there, I'd suggest that you take up mahjong or bingo instead of riding.

I wonder how many more will come in to expose lack of skill and show that they have really cool avatars on MTBR. At least that's something.

What a joke.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> Yep mountain biking has gone soft. I only ride through thorn bushes and mosquito infested swamps...one handed of course so I can punch myself in the nuts the whole time.


Case in point in context of my response to Waltass


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Boy, with the exception of a small few in this forum community, there sure are a lot of big talkers and high post counters. Apparently that's the extent. It's a popularity contest of keyboard jockeys who will troll a subject to make smart-ass comments and false-equivalencies that exposes their almost certain lack of riding ability. 

Nothing wrong with lacking ability, but with the way a good number of you bloviate on subjects you have no business talking about, I'd be pretty ashamed. There's a word for this. It's called posing. Because who's gonna know, right??


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

jochribs said:


> I wonder how many more will come in to expose lack of skill and show that they have really cool avatars on MTBR. At least that's something.


Now avatars are an indication of lacking skill too? Good thing I am just a "F".

What if I was against dumbing down trails, pushed myself to get better at harder features, took a lift once in a while, enjoyed a good flow trail now and then, wore gloves and occasionally knee pads (WTF is that all about man, seriously?), and still preferred a good rock garden (maybe even going uphill...) to smooth dirt?

Would I know or not know what I am talking about? Is there a governing body or clearinghouse that can separate the real riders from the posers?

I think there is something much deeper than the current state of mountain bikers at play here. Best of luck working it out.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

fly4130 said:


> What if I was against dumbing down trails, pushed myself to get better at harder features, took a lift once in a while, enjoyed a good flow trail now and then, wore gloves and occasionally knee pads (WTF is that all about man, seriously?), and still preferred a good rock garden (maybe even going uphill...) to smooth dirt?


I'd say you have no reason to make a comment then. But here you are.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

Teach a man to fish @jochribs, help me understand why.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)




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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

jochribs said:


> It's a popularity contest of keyboard jockeys who will troll a subject to make smart-ass comments and false-equivalencies that exposes their almost certain lack of riding ability.


I don't know all the players here, so I can't make such a statement about anyone's ability, and I'm pretty sure you're in the same boat. It's a pretty big claim you make, and I'd say it borders on what a keyboard jockey would say, since only a fool would make such a statement without knowing for sure he was right. Without us all meeting in person with our bikes so we can ride different trails and observe everyone's skills, we can only imagine what people are capable of.

Not to toot my own horn, but I rode a completely new trail a few months ago, almost 10 miles long, and tagged along with a guy that showed up at the same time who offered to show me around. Another guy was out there who had just finished up mowing around the trailhead and he told me that guy was a regular and one of the main group that put the trails in. At one point we took a small break and he told me he was impressed because I obviously knew what I was doing. While the trails weren't heavy on technical obstacles, it had plenty of technical climbs, many drops, and no shortage of climbs that were demanding. While I might not be a superman on my bike, I put the work in, and I'm sure I speak for many others when I say people who make claims that everyone else has no skills are offensive.

I agree with what you say about all of the trolling stuff though. That's part of the reason I stopped showing up here a few months ago. The BS gets old, and it's usually the same handful of people doing most of it. I'm actually surprised what you're saying hasn't been coming from other people that I'm more familiar with.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

fly4130 said:


> Teach a man to fish @jochribs, help me understand why.


I'd say it's pretty obvious. Based on your assertions of your riding preferences, I don't see why you're choosing to troll.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

jochribs said:


> Yes, because that's what I'm talking about equates to?
> 
> Could you EVER do what I'm talking about? I sure hope you could because it's not really a big deal. If you are popping into this thread to troll and equate being able to negotiate logs on a trail of hero dirt through deciduous forest to _"walking 8 miles through snow to school" _and really think you have a viable comment there, I'd suggest that you take up mahjong or bingo instead of riding.
> 
> ...


OK...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

fly4130 said:


> I think there is something much deeper than the current state of mountain bikers at play here. Best of luck working it out.


I'm thinking the same.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

jochribs said:


> I'd say it's pretty obvious. Based on your assertions of your riding preferences, I don't see why you're choosing to troll.


Maybe because your relentless posting and superior attitude has made you eminently trollable?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

...


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

waltaz said:


> Maybe because your relentless posting and superior attitude has made you eminently trollable?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You do you buddy. Let me know how those 8 mile snow hikes go.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Miker J said:


> Hey, I've ridden that, "Devil's Throat". Part of the Green Mountain Trails. Thought it was one of the best trails in the network. Tough to clean the first time through if I recall correctly. Lots of old school tech.


Yes! One of my favorite trails ever. Sad thing is I am in that area all the time but don't get to ride it much. My buddies see the double black diamond marking in trailforks and it scares them off. I've only ever ridden it solo, which probably isn't the best idea.

Lots of great ones in that system. Labyrinth, Bubba, Round Yonder, Wrong Way... All sweet, old school gnar. Lot's of great trail networks nearby, too. Many of them are done with their brown sidewalk development and are moving on to cutting more challenging stuff. Aqueduct and Mt. Peg both have fresh black diamond level dirt.


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## Fr0hickey (May 25, 2021)

jochribs said:


> You do you buddy. Let me know how those 8 mile snow hikes go.


I would like to apologize to you, @jochribs. I'm sorry that I am not as good of a mountain biker as you are. I'm not worthy to even post in the same forum as you.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Anyone ever "meet in the middle"...so to speak. I've been on plenty of trails where there are trees across the trail like in those photos. But the trail maint folk will cut a "notch" out...usually about 2'-2.5' wide and about halfway through the tree. Thus creating two paths, the hard "non-manicured one" and the easy "notch" one. It seems to work well as a compromise.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

smartyiak said:


> Anyone ever "meet in the middle"...so to speak.


Yeah we've cut some out, left some, turned some into jumps or skinnies, etc. Just depends on the situation.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KobayashiMaru said:


> As for insinuating people should get off trails and ride pavement or a rails-to-trails ride, again, at a certain point when all you're doing is clearing obstacles, it's not really a mountain bike trail, it's a trials playground or a skills course, and that's fine if that's what you want, but the majority of people on mountain bikes want to _ride_ them, not constantly negotiate them over stuff for an hour and never see their average speed above 2 mph.


My point was that you don't need to bunnyhop to clear a log.

I'm not in any way promoting a sea of deadfall and while I enjoy the occasional log hop, I greatly prefer rocks myself.
But rocks and logs and roots are an intrinsic part of MTB IMO, and the people who don't want to deal with that around here are better off finding a different game to play rather than going out and dumbing down trails/features that have been in play for decades.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Vibes to all the riders whose trails are so lame they get excited about having a log to ride over.


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## pinetree (Aug 21, 2016)

I may be a crumudgeon also... been in the game for 30+ years. Things sure have changed from caliper brakes, bar ends, and narrow tires on steep, twitchy frames. Where I live in MT, the local trails are essentially shared use sprawled out hiking trails, so there is a minimal amount of MTB specific features. I enjoy this type of riding, but I also love going to a lift serviced park with my nine year old and railing berms and tabletops all day. I honestly don't think it necessarily takes more skill to ride natural trails than sculpted ones; they both require different skills. A good athlete is going to find ways to challenge themselves no matter what sort of terrain they have in front of them. 

But, I would say that MTB is about riding everything in the mountains, in any condition. This is why its called "mountain" biking. You're outside. There's weather. **** breaks, you gotta fix it. Whether its on a buff bermed highway or a steep rocky rodeo plummet descent, its all MTB and its all fun (as long as you can stay safe). 

Some people do think that a certain type of trail is "what real mountain biking is," but then you are limiting your possibilities when you think like that. When you limit your possibilities, you limit your fun. If someone does think like that, I tend to feel sorry for them. They are missing out big time.


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## pinetree (Aug 21, 2016)

I should follow up with my last post though: I am pretty fortunate to live where I do; there are like 800 miles of trails within an hours drive. I don't have to worry about new trends like beginner flow trails being the only new trails being built, or people crowding out popular trails. Each MTB locale has challenges, and we seem to have fewer than most. But I would be frustrated if there was a local trend to dumb down the trails or make them all necessarily easier. There is a tension here between builders that make natural style trails vs others that want more MTB specific features and flow. 

If trails are predominantly too easy or too hard in an area, people get left out. It's good to have a mix. But I think at the end of the day, this sport is very tough. You have to be physically strong, have balance, timing, intuition and strategy. You have to tune your rig and know how to maintain it. Its not for everyone, and I don't think it necessarily needs to be easy for beginners, because its not an easy or safe sport.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm lucky, I live in a bike heavy area and there are plenty of trails and ALL of them are fun because I'm new to mtb biking. I'm just happy to be in the woods and not on open roads, after years of avid road riding. Still haven't found the time to head west to the mtns either. Oh, and I still have yet to look up the various settings on my fork/rear suspension. My skills, not my bike, are what hold me back 👍


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)




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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

evasive said:


> Vibes to all the riders whose trails are so lame they get excited about having a log to ride over.


That pretty much describes most of the trail systems in my area. Anything resembling tech challenge has either been neutered or rerouted for the most part. A lot of people really just want smooth dirt paths through the woods.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

slapheadmofo said:


> the people who don't want to deal with that around here are better off finding a different game to play rather than going out and dumbing down trails/features that have been in play for decades.


I think something is lost between a lot of us here. The OP was complaining about people riding what he sees as super bikes flying at high speeds on foo foo trails that seem like interstates to him. Somehow we got onto picking up branches and removing dead/fallen trees as if that's the same thing as what he was griping about.

I wouldn't dare expect to show up to a trail, find it too much of a challenge because of features that were built into the ride, and then feel so entitled that I then removed the difficult stuff to make it suit me. That would be sacrilegious. If, though, there was a trail I had ridden for years and big trees fell across it that weren't there to begin with, then yes, they need to be removed.

I know some of you here would like to add obstacles to trails, but think about it this way... Would any of you condone somebody constructing a two foot high stone, concrete, or brick wall across a smooth, fun, flowy section of any of your trails? Keeping a fallen tree is about equal to that. On the other hand, if an ancient stone wall had been there for eons before someone saw it as a great thing to ride or bunny hop over, and it was part of the trail forever, then some douche demolished it to shave two seconds off his Strava time... I can see why that would make anyone irate.

I don't think anybody here is pleading for existing trails to be made easier.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

If you under maintain the easier trails, the harder ones just get braided out or sanitized. That's just how it is. There's already too much sanitization going on anyway.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

pinetree said:


> You're outside. There's weather. **** breaks, you gotta fix it.


Absolutely. It's part of the reason I like IMBA Epic Rides. 30-40 miles unsupported. Waaaay off the beaten path. Just you, your bike, your gear, the trail, and your determination.

That brings me to this... We all know those little sticks and branches that are about as fat as a jumbo pencil that lay along the trail, either as small sections sveral inches long or as parts of bigger, more substantial branches. We can all ride right over those, no problem, but I've been behind someone and watched one of those pop up, snag inside the spokes of their back wheel and absolutely destroy their derailleur and bend their hanger. An entire riding party set out on a big ride as a group comes to a halt as everybody tries to mash or bend parts into angles where a workable solution can be found, but none is, because that bike didn't have a replaceable hanger and nobody had a chain breaker, and even if they did, that rider would have been looking at a single speed ride back to the car instead of a fun day on the trail with all of his friends.

And that's the light weight result. Stuff like that can destroy wheels. Maybe not so much that they're unsalvageable, but certainly to the point that your ride is over and then you have to pack it out. Not so bad if you're just a mile or two away from the car in a small, local trail, but a nightmare if you're 20 miles in, alone, and still 20 miles to the end.

Why do I say all of that? Because I absolutely, every time, pick up all of that shiznit if I see it on a trail. Some may think it's overkill, but I work too hard to pay for my wheels and derailleurs for a bunch of trash twigs on the trail to ruin my bike and my ride when I get a precious hour to myself. Maybe I'm being a grouch here, but it really irks me when nobody else picks up any of that.

And no, that's not what I was talking about earlier when I talked about always having to clean up trails. The little stuff, oddly enough, doesn't show up all that often. It's the big branches and trees I'm always cutting up with a folding saw I keep in my pack, or the chainsaws I hump in.

But in the vein of making trails too sanitized, would anybody argue picking up jumbo pencil sticks so they don't trash derailleurs is a douchey thing to do?


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## NorCal_In_AZ (Sep 26, 2019)

I think another thing that gets over looked is who is paying for trails to be built now vs 30 years ago. I rode BMX as a kid, we built as much as we rode. We built pirate trails cause that all you could do through the 90's. MTB trails (from my understanding) we're pretty much the same way. You either rode a old hiking trail, or you cut trail using as many natural features as you could. Now here comes the age of governing bodies and corporations putting money into building trails. They have to build trails that everyone, cause the land they put these trails on belongs to everyone, or everyone should have access to it. 

I understand the point the OP is making. But his attitude is taking away from his credibility. Ranting about guys wearing gloves, come on man.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

NorCal_In_AZ said:


> I think another thing that gets over looked is who is paying for trails to be built now vs 30 years ago. I rode BMX as a kid, we built as much as we rode. We built pirate trails cause that all you could do through the 90's. MTB trails (from my understanding) we're pretty much the same way. You either rode a old hiking trail, or you cut trail using as many natural features as you could. Now here comes the age of governing bodies and corporations putting money into building trails. They have to build trails that everyone, cause the land they put these trails on belongs to everyone, or everyone should have access to it.


Nice thing around here is almost everything is volunteer built / grass roots effort. 
I build a lot more than ride myself these days.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KobayashiMaru said:


> But in the vein of making trails too sanitized, would anybody argue picking up jumbo pencil sticks so they don't trash derailleurs is a douchey thing to do?


I think of that stuff as regular minor maintenance. Not something I bother with, since I actually carry tools (how the hell does no one in big group have a chain breaker?) and ain't afraid to SS a few dozen miles if I have to, but doesn't bother me if someone else picks that stuff up.

"Sanitization' tends to be used to describe actions that actually alter the trail itself to make it easier, ie - pulling out rocks, filling in/paving rootbeds, adding cheater ramps to obstacles, blowing out/cutting in corners, etc.
Logs that weren't part of the original design...meh...it's gotta be one pretty damn nice log for me to care. ?‍♂


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I know some of you here would like to add obstacles to trails, but think about it this way... Would any of you condone somebody constructing a two foot high stone, concrete, or brick wall across a smooth, fun, flowy section of any of your trails? Keeping a fallen tree is about equal to that. On the other hand, if an ancient stone wall had been there for eons before someone saw it as a great thing to ride or bunny hop over, and it was part of the trail forever, then some douche demolished it to shave two seconds off his Strava time... I can see why that would make anyone irate.
> 
> I don't think anybody here is pleading for existing trails to be made easier.


As an example, the trees in your provided pics _weren't_ two feet tall and there is no comparison between a two foot tall _tree _and a two foot tall wall of some sort, if you're going to make a legitimate debate. That is an exaggeration. Trees are round and rather forgiving when you factor in the diameter and shape of our wheels which obviously are round also. You could have taken out one and left the other. The two together would have made it a slow down, but nothing difficult as far as I am concerned. One left and the other taken out would allow a much faster running of that section...either one, but the second would be easier for most people , and would have allowed the trail to have a slight curve to hit the low crook in the tree and the curve back on the other side to follow the trails established direction.

I think if something like that causes such a major hiccup in a riders 'flow' then they have some work to do on their ability. What if that was a rock? Would people be as staunchly upset by it?

I am still at a complete lack of understanding as to how something like trees across a trail (like the ones in your pics etc) are an issue for anyone. This was mountain biking 101 from the time I started riding, and despite the hollow jabs of people saying I'm living in the past, it hasn't left my repertoire. Nor has it left the repertoire of those that I rode with back home. I don't see why it should have. I honestly did not think that people were so averse to a tree across the trail, and I think that is a very sad state of affairs. What completely confounds me is how bent out of shape the majority in here will get about a tree being across a trail. Again, I'm not talking about a sequoia. I'm talking about trees just like the ones that are in the pics you provided. There is nothing difficult at all about those trees. (With the exception that they are somewhat close together, but like I said, in that case, pick one and remove it)


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## monsterinthewoods (Jul 13, 2021)

It seems a lot of people forget that this is all just recreation. It's a game and more people are playing.

I've been riding for 20 years with a couple of gaps in the middle. It may just be a product of where I live now, but the overall state of trails is astronomically better than it was 20 years ago. If I want to go ride something technical and difficult, I can find a trail or trails to do that. If I want something flowy and relaxing because I've had a hard week and just want to chill on a Saturday, I can find a trail or trails to do that. If I want to incorporate both, there are places I can do that too. 

I don't feel the need to kill myself every time I go out. I don't feel the need to prove my testicular fortitude every time I go out. I just want to go out and enjoy myself whichever way suits me that day.


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## monsterinthewoods (Jul 13, 2021)

Also, if you don't like the way the trails are being maintained, join the organization that maintains them and put in your two cents about what you would like instead.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

NorCal_In_AZ said:


> I think another thing that gets over looked is who is paying for trails to be built now vs 30 years ago. I rode BMX as a kid, we built as much as we rode. We built pirate trails cause that all you could do through the 90's. MTB trails (from my understanding) we're pretty much the same way. You either rode a old hiking trail, or you cut trail using as many natural features as you could. Now here comes the age of governing bodies and corporations putting money into building trails. They have to build trails that everyone, cause the land they put these trails on belongs to everyone, or everyone should have access to it.
> 
> I understand the point the OP is making. But his attitude is taking away from his credibility. Ranting about guys wearing gloves, come on man.


You're talking about me. I'm not the OP though.

My comment about gloves etc isn't a rant about gloves persay. There was a thread in here years back where someone asked if people wore gloves or not. I was relatively new to the forum. I simply answered that I don't wear gloves, and that was invitation for every troll to make mocking jabs at me. _Because I said I don't wear gloves. _I didn't care whether others wore gloves or not, and I was just answering a poll. I think that gave me an insight as to the herd mentality that if you don't do or like what the majority is saying in these forums, often times you're going to trigger someone. The same goes for stating that features that force you to hop, like trees, has invited trolling, and unmerited statements that take a stance of dismissiveness towards what in my opinion is a good feature on a trail. People don't have to agree with me, but they should also not be butthurt when I respond to their speaking to me as if they have the last word on _my opinion. That's _where my attitude is coming in to this. And I think that should be understandable.


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## NorCal_In_AZ (Sep 26, 2019)

jochribs said:


> You're talking about me. I'm not the OP though.
> 
> My comment about gloves etc isn't a rant about gloves persay. There was a thread in here years back where someone asked if people wore gloves or not. I was relatively new to the forum. I simply answered that I don't wear gloves, and that was invitation for every troll to make mocking jabs at me. _Because I said I don't wear gloves. _I didn't care whether others wore gloves or not, and I was just answering a poll. I think that gave me an insight as to the herd mentality that if you don't do or like what the majority is saying in these forums, often times you're going to trigger someone. The same goes for stating that features that force you to hop, like trees, has invited trolling, and unmerited statements that take a stance of dismissiveness towards what in my opinion is a good feature on a trail. People don't have to agree with me, but they should also not be butthurt when I respond to their speaking to me as if they have the last word on _my opinion. That's _where my attitude is coming in to this. And I think that should be understandable.


Yeah sorry about the confusion, so much going on in here I have hard time keeping up. I thought the point about gloves being made was "back in my day we didn't wear no stinking gloves" and "all you kids wearing your cool kit gloves are soft". To go along with the point that trails are being dumbed down and made to easy.

You and I share the same feeling really, the "you worry about you and I'll worry about me" attitude. (That goes for something else going on in our world these days)


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

NorCal_In_AZ said:


> Yeah sorry about the confusion, so much going on in here I have hard time keeping up. I thought the point about gloves being made was "back in my day we didn't wear no stinking gloves" and "all you kids wearing your cool kit gloves are soft". To go along with the point that trails are being dumbed down and made to easy.
> 
> You and I share the same feeling really, the "you worry about you and I'll worry about me" attitude. (That goes for something else going on in our world these days)


No worries NorCal, it happens.

And that is what I did think of the people that were triggered by me saying that I didn't wear gloves. I think it said VOLUMES about those particular people and their weak personal constitution, that another person doing something different than them triggered them to ridicule. Why else would they have anything to say? Basically this: "I do this and I am scared of hurting myself, if you don't then it is a personal slight at me, even though you aren't saying anything about me at all." Same goes for the trolls about logs. Says volumes about them and their riding if comments that have nothing to do with them, are made (by them) to have everything to do with them. Ya know? Anyway, thanks for being open minded to my response.

That said, I really shouldn't have said anything about pads/gloves in a previous post in this thread because it targets and offends not only the piss asses that I speak of, but also folks like you, who I have no intention of offending.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Wow. Just wow. You love to complain don't you. Not trolling, this is an honest-to-god critique of your posts. You attack, belittle and attempt to demean others. All because they DARED to make a comment about your posts.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

jochribs said:


> hands and extremities clad in 'look the part' protection from even the hint of a scrape against god-knows-what,


Come on man, don't back away from this statement, or the earlier one where you had to mention you hate gloves and pads. There is implication to it. Own what is behind those words. And when you are getting rebuttals and you make statements about peoples character, while at the same time calling THEM trolls? THEY got triggered? Don't forget you are responding too. Triggers all the way down it seems. Then you decide peoples skill level and who can reply here?

That is why I chose to reply. We are in near complete agreement about the idea of mountain biking. You are just letting your message get lost and seem to be unaware of what you are saying. There were needlessly snarky replies here, and I will admit to mine not furthering the conversation.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

fly4130 said:


> Come on man, don't back away from this statement, or the earlier one where you had to mention you hate gloves and pads. There is implication to it. Own what is behind those words. And when you are getting rebuttals and you make statements about peoples character, while at the same time calling THEM trolls? THEY got triggered? Don't forget you are responding too. Triggers all the way down it seems. Then you decide peoples skill level and who can reply here?
> 
> That is why I chose to reply. We are in near complete agreement about the idea of mountain biking. You are just letting your message get lost and seem to be unaware of what you are saying. There were needlessly snarky replies here, and I will admit to mine not furthering the conversation.


I'm not backing away from that statement. I am explaining where it came from and why it was not right for me to say in this thread.

Go back to the first post I made regarding logs. That was directed at no one in particular, and yet was the trigger for comments to come. If I didn't know any better, I'd say your just the type that I speak of, as you have done nothing but get triggered to respond directly to me, even quoting a comment I made to another troll... to respond to me...as if that even makes sense. You coming at me, responding to trolls, and calling me triggered is so idiotic it boggles the mind.

The rest of your post here is moot. Really all of it is.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

jochribs said:


> the trees in your provided pics _weren't_ two feet tall


 I don't know how much it matters, but take a closer look at the pics in my earlier reply. That's a 6' long prybar leaned up against one tree. My dad in the photo next to the chainsaw, he's over 6' tall.

Here are two pics from the other side I took this morning, both are facing backwards from how the trail is ridden:



















Cell phone cameras, at their wide angle, give altered perspectives to distance and size. I didn't measure the logs at the cut because I didn't have a tape with me, but they were big.

In the second one, the crest of the little climb is level with my chin, and I'm 5'10". While the tree could have been ridden over, it's in the absolute wrong spot and it completely robs all of the fun from that section of trial. (Getting over it would be a jarring halt to the up and down of the preceeding climbs you have to make before that little climb.)

The two trees areabout 10 feet away from each other, and again, they could be cleared, but it just takes the fun out of the ride where for years that was a welcome zippy swoop after 2 tough climbs in a row. Those climbs are where my heart rate pegs the highest on every ride, so they're tough. Like someone already said, I'm not punching myself in the nuts on the bike to prove my masculinity. Those two climbs are hard enough... I'm not giving up the well earned fun and relief of a quick swoop in exchange for two big trees to climb over.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I don't know how much it matters, but take a closer look at the pics in my earlier reply. That's a 6' long prybar leaned up against one tree. My dad in the photo next to the chainsaw, he's over 6' tall.
> 
> Here are two pics from the other side I took this morning, both are facing backwards from how the trail is ridden:
> 
> ...


FWIW, I appreciate you, and those who do what you do.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I don't know how much it matters, but take a closer look at the pics in my earlier reply. That's a 6' long prybar leaned up against one tree. My dad in the photo next to the chainsaw, he's over 6' tall.
> 
> Here are two pics from the other side I took this morning, both are facing backwards from how the trail is ridden:
> 
> ...


Yeah, I was using the pic where your dads knee was next to the tree to make my guesstimate. I still don't think it's 2 feet. Either way, it's not a point worth bantering. I personally think that set up where the trees _were_ is awesome. reminds me of home.

We had a tree that was about that size at the _top_ of a drop down incline at our local race spot. If I am recalling it's diameter, it was probably in the 18" to 20" size. Rested on the ground. We would come into this out of the start, red hot as it was just out of the meadow and into the woods of one of the entrance/exits we would use. (Every week the course changes but things get repeated often). Not only did you have to hop the log into the incline, but we also had to turn immediately at the bottom. When that tree first fell, it was a scary thought to approach it. But once you did it once, you were fine and it was one of the best feeling features there. Not only would we go over that in the down direction, we would also have to hop it in the opposite direction. Out of a turn, up a sharp incline to hop the log sitting right at the top. You had to give it gas (and take the turn well) to have the momentum to clean it or barely glance your back tire off it. Was never a problem, once the fear of it was banished from your mind the initial go.

I read what you are saying, but I don't agree that they are impossible or flow interrupting. I see features that if you gave yourself the chance, you find you can do them and they do nothing but make you better for doing them.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> Wow. Just wow. You love to complain don't you. Not trolling, this is an honest-to-god critique of your posts. You attack, belittle and attempt to demean others. All because they DARED to make a comment about your posts.


Complaining or responding to others comments??

Do you have anything to add?

I'd love to ride with you. (What does that have to do with anything? Nothing really, and about the same as your biased (triggered) post)

I'm absolutely crestfallen that you can't be my friend on MTBR. Sniffles.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I don't know how much it matters, but take a closer look at the pics in my earlier reply. That's a 6' long prybar leaned up against one tree. My dad in the photo next to the chainsaw, he's over 6' tall.
> 
> Here are two pics from the other side I took this morning, both are facing backwards from how the trail is ridden:
> 
> ...


Where do you live Koba? Is this trail on any apps?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jochribs said:


> I'd love to ride with you.


That doesn't sound sincere.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

...


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> That doesn't sound sincere.


But it is J.B. Why would you think that?


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

jochribs said:


> Where do you live Koba? Is this trail on any apps?


It's in West Tennessee. It's on apps, but I don't want to pinpoint it in case something negative could come from it. It's a public trail... it's not a bandit trail or anything... I just want to err on the side of caution and not make it a direct focus of debate or something. People are so strange these days and no telling what a random mention on the internet could turn into.

Can I get you the info you seek in some other way without linking directly to the trail or segments on Strava?


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Eric F said:


> FWIW, I appreciate you, and those who do what you do.


Thank you. It's nice when someone makes it known that they do. Most of the time all of that work is thankless.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

KobayashiMaru said:


> It's in West Tennessee. It's on apps, but I don't want to pinpoint it in case something negative could come from it. It's a public trail... it's not a bandit trail or anything... I just want to err on the side of caution and not make it a direct focus of debate or something. People are so strange these days and no telling what a random mention on the internet could turn into.
> 
> Can I get you the info you seek in some other way without linking directly to the trail or segments on Strava?


No worries, I wasn't asking for any negative reason, just to look at it. Looks like a fast place. I do get what you're saying though. You're saying West Tennessee is probably enough info to look at terrain characteristics there.

Edit: You could PM it to me if you that's what you mean? I just meant to look at it on mtb project etc. Just curiosity's sake. No sweat if not.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> I am still at a complete lack of understanding as to how something like trees across a trail (like the ones in your pics etc) are an issue for anyone. This was mountain biking 101 from the time I started riding, and despite the hollow jabs of people saying I'm living in the past, it hasn't left my repertoire. Nor has it left the repertoire of those that I rode with back home. I don't see why it should have. I honestly did not think that people were so averse to a tree across the trail, and I think that is a very sad state of affairs. What completely confounds me is how bent out of shape the majority in here will get about a tree being across a trail. Again, I'm not talking about a sequoia. I'm talking about trees just like the ones that are in the pics you provided. There is nothing difficult at all about those trees. (With the exception that they are somewhat close together, but like I said, in that case, pick one and remove it)


I heard 29ers roll over anything.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

About all I can say is that I appreciate all the new flow trails because without them, all these new riders might be clogging up the good trails. 😉

The disappointing fact is that no new legal technical trails are built anymore locally. Every new trail we have is easy. Oh, people think they’re the greatest trails ever— but they’re not. It’s even worse when the tech trails we have are sanitized.

For a time, I enjoyed some of these trails. But with manicured, bermed trails it only takes a half a dozen runs before you’ve got it dialed at maximum speed (if you’re an experienced rider). And after a point, it’s just like riding on autopilot. I need more than that.

Thankfully, we still have a handful of trails that fit the bill. I had an amazing ride this morning. On this particular trail, there is no guarantee that I’ll clean it properly every time— it’s that hard. Today I rode it perfectly. It’s a scary trail.🤘

Guys, keep your best trails a secret. Once they’re gone, they’re not coming back.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I heard 29ers roll over anything.


 Apparently that's the idea. And if you actually still flick your 29 wheels around, you're stuck in 1993. So, so lame.

My Top Fuel came with a label affixed that said:

-Not from 1993, not a Wahoo. 
-'Downcountry' only. 
-No old-school jank (they didn't specify wtf that is though, said to ask Mr. Breaking Bad, he'll set ya straight on a long walk through snow).
-No hopping. (Wheels must never leave the ground, unless it is in a skillz course with manufactured featurez (must be spelled with a 'z' or it is off-limitz. No exceptionz. )
-No lame trails. If there is a log crossing a trail, it is lame. Do not proceed. 
-Only ride while wearing glasses with rose-tint while on family trails, where they have very green grass on the outsides of supported turns. Do not ride where grass is greener than aforementioned grass. 
-Get in line.
-Smooth is the name of the game. Get a Fuel EX, or even better...a Remedy, same above rulez apply. There is no such thing as 'too much' bike for smooth trails.

Apparently they did a blind poll with the tools good folks here on MTBR to come up with this all encompassing list of what is permissible and what is not.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jochribs said:


> Those pics depress the sh!t out of me.


That's kind of sad, whether or not I completely agree with the results I'm very appreciative of anyone devoting their time and effort to trail work. It wouldn't depress me to ride (or walk) it as it was but the after pic seems much improved to me.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's kind of sad, whether or not I completely agree with the results I'm very appreciative of anyone devoting their time and effort to trail work. It wouldn't depress me to ride (or walk) it as it was but the after pic seems much improved to me.


(I'll take your bait...  )

🤷‍♂️ That's fine. You and I are differently skilled riders, and probably were even back in the late 90's, early 2000's. I think Cookiemonster said it best. Keep our good stuff secret because once it's gone, it ain't coming back.

Ultimately they are his (Koba's) trails, and he can do as he wishes with them. Good for him. I only said it depresses me because he volunteered it as an example and we would have never taken out such a feature. It being at that top of a climb would have only added to its worth.

The guard has largely changed and unbeknownst to them, they're taking steps backwards while under the false impression of progression. Never in a million years would I have guessed that skill of being able to hop/clean logs would be rebuked while touting modern trail construction/modern geometry as a reason/excuse and actually calling it progression.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jochribs said:


> ?‍♂ That's fine. You and I are differently skilled riders, and probably were even back in the late 90's, early 2000's.


The odds are that we are differently skilled riders but what about my post makes you think that?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> The odds are that we are differently skilled riders but what about my post makes you think that?


He thinks his **** doesn't stink.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> He thinks his **** doesn't stink.


No, incorrect. I think know you're a 🤡

Massive difference.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> The odds are that we are differently skilled riders but what about my post makes you think that?


His pic shoes a rather mundane mound of clay with absolutely nothing else. You think that's an improvement. Which is fine, however that makes us very different.

What if a 'skinny' got built on top that had a drop to flat at the end...would that be better? Serious question.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

jochribs said:


> Those pics depress the sh!t out of me.
> ...
> 
> What has happened to mountain biking? No vision.


I don't know how things are in your area, but around me, the trails are not just used by MTBs. Consideration for all users should be kept in mind.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jochribs said:


> His pic shoes a rather mundane mound of clay with absolutely nothing else. You think that's an improvement. Which is fine, however that makes us very different.
> 
> What if a skinny got built on top that had a drop to flat at the end...would that be better? Serious question.


Actually the pic you quoted showed 2 downed trees 5 feet apart crossing what was once a trail.

How do trails get built? Serious question.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Eric F said:


> I don't know how things are in your area, but around me, the trails are not just used by MTBs. Consideration for all users should be kept in mind.


Good excuse.

I know every time I have been on a hike, and god-forbid I had to step over something it really ruined my experience. I really just wanted to be able to walk with my eyes closed and not even have to be worried about stepping on a root. Sh!t, if the path doesn't have handrails and crushed gravel, it gets one star.


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## AMac4108 (Oct 8, 2008)

jochribs said:


> Good excuse.
> 
> I know every time I have been on a hike, and god-forbid I had to step over something it really ruined my experience. I really just wanted to be able to walk with my eyes closed and not even have to be worried about stepping on a root. Sh!t, if the path doesn't have handrails and crushed gravel, it gets one star.


You sound like you've never had to work with other trail use groups. That's fine if you haven't, just don't act like you know every possible situation and consideration that goes into a trail.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Actually the pic you quoted showed 2 downed trees 5 feet apart crossing what was once a trail.
> 
> How do trails get built? Serious question.


LMAO!

Now they were 5 feet apart. Koba himself said that they were 10, and I guarantee that was a minimizing exaggeration for the sake of argument. There was more than that between them.

He also said that the top log was 2 foot in diameter. If that's the case then judging by his dads knee, his dad is around 8 foot tall. GTFO of here.

Ah, how do trails get built question...the best ones are built by hand.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

AMac4108 said:


> You sound like you've never had to work with other trail use groups. That's fine if you haven't, just don't act like you know every possible situation and consideration that goes into a trail.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You have zero clue about what work I've done and with whom. I'm sorry that you are relegated to such Nancyism. Don't act like what you settle for and think is remarkable is indicative of my experience.


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## AMac4108 (Oct 8, 2008)

jochribs said:


> You have zero clue about what work I've done and with whom. I'm sorry that you are relegated to such Nancyism. Don't act like what you settle for and think is remarkable is indicative of my experience.


I'm the Nancy? You are the one stretching this pointless argument out for days.

What do you want to accomplish at this point? Do we need to make a separate post about how jochribs is the single greatest rider and trailbuilder on here? And then we can all come to you before we do anything to our local trails and get orders on how to proceed.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jochribs said:


> LMAO!
> 
> Ah, how do trails get built question...the best ones are built by hand.


Or by animals that find the easiest path through the forest. Trails built by humans essentially do the same thing but usually trees are cut and rocks and earth are moved to accomplish the task.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

...double post


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

AMac4108 said:


> I'm the Nancy? You are the one stretching this pointless argument out for days.
> 
> What do you want to accomplish at this point? Do we need to make a separate post about how jochribs is the single greatest rider and trailbuilder on here? And then we can all come to you before we do anything to our local trails and get orders on how to proceed.


Very simple...if you don't like my responses, then don't engage. I'm not searching YOU out to post a comment in response to.

You see how that works

Rocket science.

Also 'relegated to such Nancyism' ≠ Nancy...unless you are volunteering yourself for the title.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Or by animals that find the easiest path through the forest. Trails built by humans essentially do the same thing but usually trees are cut and rocks and earth are moved to accomplish the task.


That's the difference between the trails I learned to ride on and subsequently helped expand and what you think needs to be done to "accomplish the task". Hence, why my concept of what it takes to call oneself a mtb'er is vastly different from the majority trolling this thread and having the audacity to be surprised that their primadonna comments are getting push back from me. 🤷‍♂️

By the way, you didn't answer my question in #142. I've answered yours.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

If you don't have logs to hop then you can always try hopping the jumps. Sometimes you have to look for the challenges.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> If you don't have logs to hop then you can always try hopping the jumps. Sometimes you have to look for the challenges.


😐

Edit: The manufactured skinny bridge 😐. That's the state of skill now? I'm sorry, that's a facsimile. No offense meant to you...but to the idea that that takes skill, and has been force fed to you, and you seemingly have willingly swallowed.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

jochribs said:


> 😐
> 
> Edit: The manufactured skinny bridge 😐. That's the state of skill now? I'm sorry, that's a facsimile. No offense meant to you...but to the idea that that takes skill, and has been force fed to you, and you seemingly have willingly swallowed.


Yep Big Skinny controlling people thru marketing. Wake up sheeple! It's not even that skinny!


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> Yep Big Skinny controlling people thru marketing.


 You said it, not me ?


jeremy3220 said:


> It's not even that skinny!


That's what he said.

That's not helping it be any cooler. It's fake. It's placed in an area that very well may have had actual tech removed, for that to then be 'inserted' to the ah's and oooh's of the crowd. (Maybe not in that case in particular, but that happens more than it doesn't.)

Let me know when you're gapping spine sets and nosediving in, straight into another one, and then another one....and so on. I'll stick to doing that on my 20" and being able to ride 'real' terrain on my big wheels. Fake challenge that is inserted to pacify the mtb crowd at large these days is really not a move in a forward direction.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

jochribs said:


> Good excuse.
> 
> I know every time I have been on a hike, and god-forbid I had to step over something it really ruined my experience. I really just wanted to be able to walk with my eyes closed and not even have to be worried about stepping on a root. Sh!t, if the path doesn't have handrails and crushed gravel, it gets one star.


If we're going to play the game where the only choices are one extreme or another, let's do it your way. Let's let every tree, branch, stick, rock, or boulder that falls across the trail to lay where they fall because they make for a a good challenge for jochribs on the occasion that he might ride there. Who cares if the trail eventually becomes impassable for horses, or such slow-going for hikers/runners that they just stop using it. Better yet - let's forget trails all together! If you aren't riding on virgin ground, you're not a real MTB'er!!

Trails are - by design - an easier path through the wilderness. Maintaining the integrity of that path is valuable for everyone.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Eric F said:


> If we're going to play the game where the only choices are one extreme or another, let's do it your way. Let's let every tree, branch, stick, rock, or boulder that falls across the trail to lay where they fall because they make for a a good challenge for jochribs on the occasion that he might ride there. Who cares if the trail eventually becomes impassable for horses, or such slow-going for hikers/runners that they just stop using it. Better yet - let's forget trails all together! If you aren't riding on virgin ground, you're not a real MTB'er!!
> 
> Trails are - by design - an easier path through the wilderness. Maintaining the integrity of that path is valuable for everyone.


Absolutely idiotic premise, and that's not what I am advocating and you know it. But, without going to 'extremes', you have little to nothing to say to me. And you JUST have to be able to say something, so you stoop to making a false premise argument.

I have never once advocated for EVERY single thing being left on a trail and you 100% know it. If you don't you're just reading/glancing over my comments and cherry-picking with the intent of getting butthurt and have a justification to troll...or...your reading comprehension is pathetic. But based on your sentence structure, I'd say you have reasonable intelligence...you're just a trolling coward that doesn't see sticking to valid arguments as a tenet that they need to stick to. You seem to be in good company here if that's the case, and I think it is.

Go back through my posts in this thread and show me where I have advocated that. I'll wait.

?

Your last sentences illustrates that without doubt, you've been assimilated to the new version of mtbing. Or maybe you got into mtbing because this is what it has become. A path of least resistance.

Go away and play bingo ?


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

jochribs said:


> Absolutely idiotic premise, and that's not what I am advocating and you know it. But, without going to 'extremes', you have little to nothing to say to me. And you JUST have to be able to say something, so you stoop to making a false premise argument.
> 
> I have never once advocated for EVERY single thing being left on a trail and you 100% know it. If you don't you're just reading/glancing over my comments and cherry-picking with the intent of getting butthurt and have a justification to troll.
> 
> ...


Your words...


jochribs said:


> I know every time I have been on a hike, and god-forbid I had to step over something it really ruined my experience. I really just wanted to be able to walk with my eyes closed and not even have to be worried about stepping on a root. Sh!t, if the path doesn't have handrails and crushed gravel, it gets one star.


This ^^^ is just as a ridiculously extreme conclusion as the (obviously hyperbolic) conclusion I posted.

You've been bitching and whining about one guy's tree cutting for days. Personally, I don't see it as sanitizing. I see it as maintaining the character of the trail, which I'm totally good with. Despite our disagreement on this issue, we totally agree on that stupid tiny bridge. Good grief!

You don't know a damn thing about how I ride, what I ride, where I ride, or how long I've been doing it. Another really bad conclusion on your part.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Eric F said:


> Your words...
> 
> This ^^^ is just as a ridiculously extreme conclusion as the (obviously hyperbolic) conclusion I posted.
> 
> You've been bitching and whining about one guy's tree cutting for days. Personally, I don't see it as sanitizing. I see it as maintaining the character of the trail, which I'm totally good with. Despite our disagreement on this issue, we totally agree on that stupid tiny bridge. Good grief!


Nice try. My sarcasm towards your post does not doesn't equal you saying that I am advocating for every single rock, branch, tree, root etc be left in the trail. I have POSTS confirming this. You are again making a false equivalency of me be sarcastic with ONE of your posts to you taking the long running point I'm making and saying my purpose is 180 degrees different than what I have literally typed.
Further more, this going on for days hasn't been because I'm talking to myself in this thread. I'm responding to being engaged. And THAT STARTED because on page 2, I offered my opinion (just like everyone else in here) and was directly attacked in regards to my objective opinion about what I think is good on a trail, by one of the biggest long winded ?'s this site has had the luxury of housing. The rest of the trolls jumped in from there. I have been responding to posts this entire time since then. I'm not backing down from clowns that don't think I have a right to respond to their trolling. This started DAYS ago as me defending myself/objective opinion against countless triggered ?'s that really haven't needed to say anything. But this is a popularity contest here, and there are some carefully curated fake personas in here that just love to have someone to pile onto.

I don't give a sh!t what your trails or anyone else's are like honestly. It might have been coming off that way, I'll admit, because my being placed in a position to continually defend what I have a preference of(and where people are using their own locations as an argument against what I have a preference to) has blurred that delineation. I'll own my part in that misunderstanding. I don't have respect for, and won't offer it to those that initiate the disrespect with me. 


Eric F said:


> You don't know a damn thing about how I ride, what I ride, where I ride, or how long I've been doing it. Another really bad conclusion on your part.


Based on the previous comments you have made here towards me, I don't think I am far off. That's what is the most laughable part about this. When a person is triggered enough to jump into another persons objective post and criticise them directly...or a person takes my response towards that person...or another digs their heels in to advocate for things being 'easier' and then say's "you don't know me" I think they may want to take a look in the mirror and realize that the emperor is standing buck naked. And it's not just you doing that. It's countless others as well. I think I have pretty solid assessment.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jochribs said:


> ?
> 
> This one oughta get good.


Your first post was prophetic!


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Your first post was prophetic!


Indeed.

And you still haven't answered my question on #142.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Your first post was prophetic!


Eh, each post is more pathetic though. It's kind of fun to watch.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> Eh, each post is more pathetic though. It's kind of fun to watch.


Says the triggered poser that equates being able to ride well to riding a Wahoo from 1993, (there weren't Wahoo's in 1993 btw) and thinks there's a line drawn between the two, because I said I like to leave logs across trails. That emperor and his micro penis thing...you're naked buddy. You don't care though, you're cool on MTBR.

I bet you're fun  comical to watch too. ?

Guaranteed ?.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I live a couple minutes from a bike park with jump lines and flow trails. You soft pedal back to the top. It's not my thing and don't ride there. I've rode and raced mountain bikes for 36 years and my idea of riding is all day epics, exploration, bonking and getting home at night, walking many miles out with a mechanical, traveling to ride exotic places. Ect. To each their own.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

jochribs said:


> Let me know when you're gapping spine sets and nosediving in, straight into another one, and then another one....and so on.


1997


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

jochribs said:


> Nice try. My sarcasm towards your post does not doesn't equal you saying that I am advocating for every single rock, branch, tree, root etc be left in the trail. I have POSTS confirming this. You are again making a false equivalency of me be sarcastic with ONE of your posts to you taking the long running point I'm making and saying my purpose is 180 degrees different than what I have literally typed.
> Further more, this going on for days hasn't been because I'm talking to myself in this thread. I'm responding to being engaged. And THAT STARTED because on page 2, I offered my opinion (just like everyone else in here) and was directly attacked in regards to my objective opinion about what I think is good on a trail, by one of the biggest long winded ?'s this site has had the luxury of housing. The rest of the trolls jumped in from there. I have been responding to posts this entire time since then. I'm not backing down from clowns that don't think I have a right to respond to their trolling. This started DAYS ago as me defending myself/objective opinion against countless triggered ?'s that really haven't needed to say anything. But this is a popularity contest here, and there are some carefully curated fake personas in here that just love to have someone to pile onto.
> 
> I don't give a sh!t what your trails or anyone else's are like honestly. It might have been coming off that way, I'll admit, because my being placed in a position to continually defend what I have a preference of(and where people are using their own locations as an argument against what I have a preference to) has blurred that delineation. I'll own my part in that misunderstanding. I don't have respect and won't offer it to those that initiate the disrespect with me.
> ...


We have a difference of opinion. I voiced my opinion, as people tend to do on discussion forums. You called it an "excuse", and went to an extreme about handrails and crushed gravel. I understand the original point you were tying to make, and I agree that technical challenges can be a good thing. However, I'm also in favor of maintenance for preservation of a trail's character, which is not the same as sanitizing.

Now I'm curious...What kind of bike do you think I ride, and how long do you think I have been doing it?


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> 1997


If you aren't full of sh!t, then kudo's. Respect to you for that.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Eric F said:


> However, I'm also in favor of maintenance for preservation of a trail's character, which is not the same as sanitizing.


This is a very, very fine line these days with the general state of trails being essentially sanitized from their outset.

Edit: And to add, again, that I am not, and have not been advocating zero trail maintenance on a trail. I'm not sure I have actually spelled that out, but that is because it should go without saying in the first place. Often times if a tree goes down across a trail, it is absolutely negotiable and it staying isn't going to hurt the trail in the least. Yes, there are times that isn't the case. Like when the crown hits the trail, or it is utterly massive, or it is massive and also _off the ground _or the root section tore the trail up (litterally lifted it, but in that case, it usually gets routed around the hole made.) Being able to clear an obstruction on a trail, be it a clean hop or a front wheel fast tap (I don't know the term for that) is in my opinion a skill that everyone should have. Not too, too many years ago in this forum, people actually talked about doing it. What happened?



Eric F said:


> Now I'm curious...What kind of bike do you think I ride, and how long do you think I have been doing it?


Moot question as it doesn't really have anything to do with skill. What you want me to do is throw a dart in the dark at an irrelevant target.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

jochribs said:


> If you aren't full of sh!t, then kudo's. Respect to you for that.


I was a pretty decent BMX rider back then (360's, nothing's, superman's, etc). I picked up a 22" a few months ago but didn't feel right and I sold it for a DJ. Most of the local skateparks are public now. The old private ones had spines, vert ramps and the bigger stuff. The new ones seem more geared toward street style skateboarding without the bigger features.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

jochribs said:


> This is a very, very fine line these days.


I don't see it that way. In the example of this thread, leaving the trees adds moderately-significant technical obstacles that weren't there before. I see that as possibly a change of character for that segment of the trail. If it's already a heavily-technical trail, then it might be a different story.



> Moot question as it doesn't really have anything to do with skill. What you want me to do is throw a dart in the dark at an irrelevant target.


I know you originally meant it as an attempt to belittle me, but you brought up the assumptions about how I ride, and how long I've been doing it. C'mon, lay it out there.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Eric F said:


> I don't see it that way. In the example of this thread, leaving the trees adds moderately-significant technical obstacles that weren't there before. I see that as possibly a change of character for that segment of the trail. If it's already a heavily-technical trail, then it might be a different story.


 And there is why I think you are most likely a person that hasn't mastered this riding thing yet. Depending on how long you've been riding ( a lady never tells) you very well may not at all. Which, honestly is just fine. But the manner in which you refer to trees on a trail and the severity in which they are to be viewed in points to a tentative grasp on doing anything other than rolling with your wheels on relatively smooth multi-use trail. You wouldn't have used that as your ace in the hole if not. If I'm wrong, don't play hard to get, just say it. I think you aren't for a reason. And there's the beauty of the anonymity on MTBR...'I'm really a lousy mtb'er but I play a good one on the forums, everyone buys it and loves me'. Again, if I'm wrong, tell me how.



Eric F said:


> I know you originally meant it as an attempt to belittle me, but you brought up the assumptions about how I ride, and how long I've been doing it. C'mon, lay it out there.


I think you are referring to this?? That's for you to divulge buddy. I never said I knew, I said what is a possible explanation. Now you're playing games and being disingenuous for the sake of maintaining a poker face. Why don't you just come right out and say how long you've been riding?? Seriously.

Moreover, the type of bike has even less to do with anything. Unless you're insecure about it, and or are defensive about it's value/your skill. That has to do with you though. 


jochribs said:


> Your last sentences illustrates that without doubt, you've been assimilated to the new version of mtbing. Or maybe you got into mtbing because this is what it has become. A path of least resistance


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> I was a pretty decent BMX rider back then (360's, nothing's, superman's, etc). I picked up a 22" a few months ago but didn't feel right and I sold it for a DJ. Most of the local skateparks are public now. The old private ones had spines, vert ramps and the bigger stuff. The new ones seem more geared toward street style skateboarding without the bigger features.


Not to derail off the current argument 😁. What didn't feel right about the 22? I've wanted to build one just to see what it's like. Was it just that you hadn't been on a 20" for a while and 22 just wasn't enough compared to 29"? I haven't really ever stopped riding 20" (have ridden it since 26 to 29 now) so it doesn't feel odd, but I bet it would if I took years off. PM me if you want.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

jochribs said:


> Not to derail off the current argument 😁. What didn't feel right about the 22? I've wanted to build one just to see what it's like. Was it just that you hadn't been on a 20" for a while and 22 just wasn't enough compared to 29"? I haven't really ever stopped riding 20" (have ridden it since 26 to 29 now) so it doesn't feel odd, but I bet it would if I took years off. PM me if you want.


Not really sure. I think it has something to do with the BB height to wheel diameter ratio. After being on 22" for a bit, I rode someone's 20" and it felt much more natural. I think the BB was just too high on the 22"...it was just an odd combo of unstable due to the BB height yet cumbersome due to the bigger wheels.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

jochribs said:


> And there is why I think you are most likely a person that hasn't mastered this riding thing yet. Depending on how long you've been riding ( a lady never tells) you very well may not at all. Which, honestly is just fine. But the manner in which you refer to trees on a trail and the severity in which they are to be viewed in points to a tentative grasp on doing anything other than rolling with your wheels on relatively smooth multi-use trail. You wouldn't have used that as your ace in the hole if not. If I'm wrong, don't play hard to get, just say it. I think you aren't for a reason. And there's the beauty of the anonymity on MTBR...'I'm really a lousy mtb'er but I play a good one on the forums, everyone buys it and loves me'. Again, if I'm wrong, tell me how.
> 
> I think you are referring to this?? That's for you to divulge buddy. I never said I knew, I said what is a possible explanation. Now you're playing games and being disingenuous for the sake of maintaining a poker face. Why don't you just come right out and say how long you've been riding?? Seriously.


As I noted before, your conclusions are just wrong. It's really pathetic, but I'll play your silly game because I have nothing to hide, and I'm bored at work...

I started racing MTBs in '92. After breaking my collar bone in '99 (maybe '00), I switched to road and CX. I found that I was a pretty decent crit-monkey, and loved the sprint game. After winning a State Champ title in '04, I hung it all up to focus on being a dad. After a 15-year hiatus, I got back on the bike and got my fat ass in shape again. A few months ago, I dusted off my old race bike, made some modifications, and fell in love with the dirt again, riding the same areas I enjoyed when I was younger and faster. Completely contrary to your asinine assumptions, I enjoy riding challenging technical terrain. In particular, rocky, twisty, up and down stuff. That said, my testicular fortitude isn't what it used to be when I cared less about getting broken, and I'm definitely not pushing the limits of my abilities the way I used to, nor do I give a damn about being the fastest jackass on the hill. However, there isn't much my friends (experienced riders with good skills) on their full-squish 29ers ride that I can't. You can see my old bike on post #21 of this thread. I'm looking forward to a couple of hours with her tonight.

Here's one of my favorite local rides in my backyard... El Prieto Loop Mountain Bike Trail, La Cañada Flintridge, California
This was a really enjoyable ride a friend and I did a couple of weeks ago... Chilao Figure-8 Loop Mountain Bike Trail, Monrovia, California

I suppose you could call these multi-use trails since they get used by more than just MTBs. mtbproject rates them both as black. I call them fun. Doing them on a singlespeed has added a whole new element to the experience.

Not quite what you expected? LOL

This has been a ridiculous exchange...but it has made the day go by.


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## Fr0hickey (May 25, 2021)

AMac4108 said:


> Do we need to make a separate post about how jochribs is the single greatest rider and trailbuilder on here?


Yes. We have to make a separate post about how jochribs is the single greatest rider and trailbuilder on here EVER, since the dawn of time to the end of eternity!


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## NorCal_In_AZ (Sep 26, 2019)

This has been one of the more entertaining threads lately.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

NorCal_In_AZ said:


> This has been one of the more entertaining threads lately.


I don't know... I'm good with healthy debate, and several people in this thread might remember some long ones I've mixed it up in, but jochribs is getting a bit frayed. Well, I might have said that wrong... I don't think _he_ is getting frayed, but what he's picking to argue seems to be.

I'll measure the trees and post pics of a tape laying across them. They're probably not a full two feet, but I'm guessing they're 18 inches. I'll measure and then we'll know. I paced off the distance between the two trees with a heel-to-toe method, and my massive feet are shod in shoes that literally measure a foot, so 10 feet apart was very close if not spot on. Again, I'll measure and take a pic of the tape laying between them and then we'll know. Maybe that way we can at least close the book on the bickering about what can be concretely proven elements of the debate.

I'm afraid I won't be able to help close the book on the claims he keeps making about how everyone sucks as riders though. Until we can all join up in one spot on a proving grounds and show we can pass his muster, he can only make assumptions about anyone's ability. His persistence on that front, however, is heroic. I feel it's a bit rude, offensive, presumptuous, it only serves to weaken his standing amongst those in the conversation, and it's all done in bad form, but hey... Nobody is perfect, I'm certainly not, and everyone is entitled to opinions. I won't try to deny anyone their ability to share them.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

jochribs said:


> or a front wheel fast tap (I don't know the term for that)


One of my favorite things learning to ride mtb bikes on the East Coast...on a rigid Cannondale with the Aluminum Pepperoni fork. That fork was a punisher on the rocks. Tapping the front wheel on the log/tree then hucking the back wheel up and you were over. That was '90 to '96.

Now I live/ride in NM, and it's all about elevation gain/loss. And Rocks. Lotsa rocks. Most people don't realize that we have actual mountains out here. With big trees. Those are usually massive and necessitate climbing over them, or sometimes there would be a big enough space below that you could crawl through and drag your bike after you. There are volunteer crews that work with the US Forest service to clear the downed trees in the Spring.

@10,000 feet


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

The trails I ride getting changed/watered down is really low on my list of woes/concerns. My city, and neighborhood, gentrifying at warp speed is a much, much bigger problem in my life right now. Our once perfectly fine, perfectly nice mid-sized city is getting overrun with condos, high rises, and million dollar homes. It sucks.

We were already a target for the "lower cost of living" crowd, and working from home/covid really sent us into another level of gentrification. It's insane and I'm ready to relocate to a cabin in the woods...


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

The OP is classic curmudgeon and I respect that, being one myself.

To become a curmudgeon, one has to have lived long enough to reach "midlife". That's where the crisis begins. The jaded disposition of being sick and tired of all the crap endured over the course of one's life so far. Set in their ways. Inflexible and not easily willing to adapt or adjust. If this fits your current disposition, congratulations, you are a curmudgeon.

The only thing I can offer here is a repeat of what others have already stated. We are all different. We all have different ideals and tastes. Nobody is wrong as long as they are not _causing physical harm. _Simply "endangering others" may or may not qualify. Generally speaking, someone has had to have been burned by the fire before something is actually done about it. Worrying about it does nothing but cause mental suffering. Simply put, what is wrong for you may be right for someone else. Welcome to humanity.

I ride, therefore, I am


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Well, here they are. I took them yesterday, but was too busy to post the pics until now. I guessed right at 18 inches, but somehow paced off the distance between them incorrectly. I noticed yesterday that one tree fell across the trail at an angle, so I must have paced it off initially from where the edge of the tree was closest to the other one. I accounted for the angle as best as I could when I measured it. It's not an exact science. What I thought was 10 feet ended up being over 12.





































Perhaps it's a sign that the woods are suffering in some way, since there seems to be something new to clear off every time I'm out there, and I ran across this, which was not there yesterday. My shoe is a foot from heel to toe. Maybe it's a 10-12 inch tree given the angle of the photo?










In deference to those who would rather leave these things on the trail, I went back and cleared it a second time, just to see if it affected the experience in a measurable enough way to warrant removal. Of course it slowed me down, but worse than that, my chainring ate into the tree both times. I'm assuming I hit it in the same exact place each time because I only see two substantial gouges. Mine was on the left, and the other one looked like it happened yesterday.










I don't want to bang my chainring into a tree every time I ride over it. Chainrings aren't cheap. Even if the teeth don't bend or break, I don't enjoy the massive clunk of my bike physically entering the tree, so I decided to get rid of it. I debated carving a chunk out of it to preserve chainrings and leaving the tree there, but for all the sawing that would have taken with my folding saw I keep in my pack, it was just easier to make one cut and pick up the trunk off the trail.

I had a fellow who happened by help me pick it up and one of his four (small) kids shoved a thick branch underneath it so I could saw all the way through it. The kids said they rode the trail for the first time yesterday, and even though the dad was well experienced on bike, he appreciated me getting rid of the tree, since all of his kids had to dismount and get their bikes over it. As we were sitting there talking, another family rode by, and the kids were on 20 inch Walmart bikes. Again, the dad was grateful.

I'm riding a 2018 Scott Spark with 29 inch wheels. Yes, I can get over it, and so can any other biker worth his salt, but it's already been mentioned here... we hard core bikers aren't the only ones on a trail. There are harder sections out there that the masses avoid, but in the easier sections, you get all sorts of users, from groups of little kids to women pushing strollers through the woods. There's a Star Trek-ish "_the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one"_ philosophy at play here, and anybody can fall on one end or the other of it and nobody is wrong. I just felt I made the best call for everyone, even though it might not have been the best call for a few individuals.

As a side note, sort of circling back to the OP, if I was on my 12 year old Niner SIR 9, with its steeper angles, higher bottom bracket, and more cross country pedigree, I might not have eaten into the tree with my chainring. Older bikes were more capable in some ways than the newer breed. I actually prefer the handling of my SIR 9, but I'm getting older and really enjoy the smooth ride of a full suspension now. While many would argue the Spark is the superior bike, I don't have as much fun riding it as I do on the Niner.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Bash guards are helpful.

Never a bad thing to clear a log over 12". 

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Shark said:


> Bash guards are helpful.


I realize that, but I already have an extra 12 pounds on the bike from the dropper cable, both derailleurs, and the lockouts. I don't need any more additions.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

It can be part by losing the FD and multiple rings

A good 1x rant would be fitting in this thread actually.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## Wheelspeed (Jan 12, 2006)

That tree posted is an example of being okay. Removing that is over-grooming the trails. Jeez, on a 29er, if you're tired, just clear the front wheel and get the back wheel onto the top 25% or so and it'll roll over the rest. Much less than that, buy a gravel bike and ride on those gravel trails. Or god forbid get off your bike and walk it over the things that normal people can easily hop. There's probably plenty of other fallen trees that are higher that we're forced to walk over, so it's nice to save a perfect tree like that to feel good about hopping. And I have a feeling hikers and trail-joggers and horse-riders actually like the occasional perfect fallen tree like that one.

Sorry if that comes off harsh. It's kind of a trigger. Just, if a family of parents, 2 kids and a dog can walk through a woods trail, commune with nature, and easily step over something in the path, I don't feel like we should be empowered to cut every aspect of normal nature out of there. Let there be some natural features if it's not too bad.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Wheelspeed said:


> Jeez, on a 29er, if you're tired, just clear the front wheel and get the back wheel onto the top 25% or so and it'll roll over the rest.


And that's what I did. It was the chainring hitting it that cinched it. If I cleared it without biting into it, I would have left it.

Being tired is another aspect that went into the decision. It looks like a highway out there (the photo is facing opposite from the flow of bike traffic) but it's a long, gradual climb after a few bigger ones and I never have any steam there. I actually slow down and recharge in that stretch, and doing a front wheel hop to roll the bike over it and cut into the tree... it was just too jarring. I've left others like it in the past. I'm not completely unreasonable.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Wheelspeed said:


> Jeez, on a 29er, if you're tired, just clear the front wheel and get the back wheel onto the top 25% or so and it'll roll over the rest.


Oops...

Missed the part about getting the back wheel onto the top 25 percent. I didn't do that.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Wheelspeed said:


> just clear the front wheel and get the back wheel onto the top 25% or so


This has bugged me all afternoon.

I have to say it, I feel like a douche. I can totally see what you guys are getting at about leaving stuff on the trail. I'll still err on the side of the greater good in the future, but I can now see what is so annoying to you guys on the other side of the fence.

What cleared it up for me was getting the back wheel on the top of the log... On the trail, after going as hard as you can up hills, hanging on during the descents, and all the other demanding drains on your oxygen levels, your brain isn't working at peak efficiency. I realized that in my tired state, all I was thinking about was getting the front wheel on top of the log and expecting the back to just roll over. Thinking about it later, when I had an oxygen supply going to my brain, I pieced together that's what I do when I'm rolling around a school campus, or diving through business parking lots, or any other non-trail environment and I come across something taller than what I can bunny hop. The difference is that I'm not charging full blast the whole time and my brain is allowing me to think, and when I come up on a stack of landscape timbers, a retaining wall, or a curb that's huge, I naturally use my clipless pedals to hoist the rear wheel up after I put my front wheel on it. It's part of the chain of mistakes that make bunny hops harder to learn for guys that use clipless pedals I think... they "cheat" and pull the rear wheel up with their pedals instead of pushing the handlebars away from them. Obviously there are other things you should do in a proper bunny hop, but that's one of the reasons a rider can't do a good one, and there I am rationalizing that's what I need to do when I'm just cruising around having fun on the bike and I can't get enough air to hop something clean.

If I lifted my back wheel on top of the log, it would roll off and the chain ring wouldn't dig into it. Of course, it's a rapid chain of events that have to be timed just right, because there's only a few inches between the front wheel rolling off the log and the chain ring getting near it, but it can be done with focus and timing. The sad thing is, being brain dead in oxygen debt, I'm not in that frame of mind at all... I'm just plowing ahead like a moron. I guess in a dulled mindset I don't see the similarity in the mechanics of it.

Having said that though, I feel there's something to be said for when I do it somewhere else, there is usually a flat surface at the higher elevation of what I've just hopped onto, so the front wheel isn't rolling off so abruptly and it's not so urgent of a timing issue. As soon as it gets up there, I can pull the rear wheel up. Going over a log, I have to wait for the front wheel to roll off of the top of it to then begin pulling the rear wheel up, and I'm guessing I'm thinking by then I don't have the time to do it, so I just let the rear wheel roll over. It can be done though. Like jochribs was talking about... when it's there and you start going over it, you might mess it up a few times but eventually you get the timing down and then you've got that in your tool box.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Eric F said:


> As I noted before, your conclusions are just wrong. It's really pathetic, but I'll play your silly game because I have nothing to hide, and I'm bored at work...
> 
> I started racing MTBs in '92. After breaking my collar bone in '99 (maybe '00), I switched to road and CX. I found that I was a pretty decent crit-monkey, and loved the sprint game. After winning a State Champ title in '04, I hung it all up to focus on being a dad. After a 15-year hiatus, I got back on the bike and got my fat ass in shape again. A few months ago, I dusted off my old race bike, made some modifications, and fell in love with the dirt again, riding the same areas I enjoyed when I was younger and faster. Completely contrary to your asinine assumptions, I enjoy riding challenging technical terrain. In particular, rocky, twisty, up and down stuff. That said, my testicular fortitude isn't what it used to be when I cared less about getting broken, and I'm definitely not pushing the limits of my abilities the way I used to, nor do I give a damn about being the fastest jackass on the hill. However, there isn't much my friends (experienced riders with good skills) on their full-squish 29ers ride that I can't. You can see my old bike on post #21 of this thread. I'm looking forward to a couple of hours with her tonight.
> 
> ...


Oh my. I love a guy like you. You twist words in order to sound legitimate. I hadn't made a conclusion, but had offered a possibility. I think though, by reading what you have offered _yourself, _my highlighted hypothesis (below) wasn't too far off. Am I supposed to be impressed by those rides? I mean, I'm not intending to insult you on the merit of them, but they seem rather mundane to me. Would seriously bore the piss out of me and at that point I'd rather just ride over a pass or two on my gravel bike. To each their own. Anyway, I'm proud of ya buddy! You are bragging about trails that me and _my buddies _could ride on our cross bikes and gravel bikes (and have). ?‍♂ 
Furthermore, you stating what you _used _to do before taking time off and getting fat etc...why the change when you came back to it? And actually, ****, I don't mean to question you on that. There's nothing wrong with _YOUR _wants changing. There is something wrong when you offer your opinion about my wants as if I have become the shadow of what I was, as you have in regards to yourself. You should just shut up, and keep your husk of your former self to yourself, and not think that I need to think like you do. God, I feel bad for you. Not one of my old crew (we're in our 40's and 50's has gone soft like is being advocated in here, under the guise of things becoming modern.

Sorry bud, just not seeing your limited concept there.

As a last, yeah I remember that pic of your OCLV. I liked it. I was going to comment that I had one just like it, custom painted by Trek in Blaze Red (was actually orange, and the color of the 8500 that year, I think 1998?) but didn't want to take away from your post. Wish I still had that frame, gave it away to a buddy for his birthday.



jochribs said:


> Your last sentences illustrates that without doubt, _you've been assimilated to the new version of mtbing._ Or maybe you got into mtbing because this is what it has become. _A path of least resistance._


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

mlx john said:


> One of my favorite things learning to ride mtb bikes on the East Coast...on a rigid Cannondale with the Aluminum Pepperoni fork. That fork was a punisher on the rocks. Tapping the front wheel on the log/tree then hucking the back wheel up and you were over. That was '90 to '96.
> 
> Now I live/ride in NM, and it's all about elevation gain/loss. And Rocks. Lotsa rocks. Most people don't realize that we have actual mountains out here. With big trees. Those are usually massive and necessitate climbing over them, or sometimes there would be a big enough space below that you could crawl through and drag your bike after you. There are volunteer crews that work with the US Forest service to clear the downed trees in the Spring.
> 
> ...


I'm taking your comment towards me not as a troll/jab so I'm going to run on that basis.

Yeah, that's the move man. If you can't clear it outright, the fast tap is the next thing. Never ever touch your chainrings! I'm in colorado now and it's the same, big climbs and then descents. Ugh it is just boring to me. I'd like for there to be some obstructions that are manageable to be on the trails. A tree across that's 2 foot or under, stuff like that. Things to keep the technical prowess sharp. That's why I said what I said on page 2. If it's there, I revel in the opportunity because it will be complained about and removed in record time. And that I think just sucks. Been my point from the beginning, it's been a massive point of contention now ?, whatever, I'm not changing my mind.

Personally I love the rocks too. I tend to enjoy the eastern PA rocks more than here, but whatever. Gotta accept the chunk how it comes.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> Not really sure. I think it has something to do with the BB height to wheel diameter ratio. After being on 22" for a bit, I rode someone's 20" and it felt much more natural. I think the BB was just too high on the 22"...it was just an odd combo of unstable due to the BB height yet cumbersome due to the bigger wheels.


I think I can get what you're saying here. I just wouldn't have guessed that. I look at them and they look like they just scaled up a notch from 20's. Figured they'd be awesome for trails. Roll a little faster. I still have to ride one and see what I think.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I had a fellow who happened by help me pick it up and one of his four (small) kids shoved a thick branch underneath it so I could saw all the way through it. The kids said they rode the trail for the first time yesterday, and even though the dad was well experienced on bike, he appreciated me getting rid of the tree, since all of his kids had to dismount and get their bikes over it. As we were sitting there talking, another family rode by, and the kids were on 20 inch Walmart bikes. Again, the dad was grateful.


There's a really important point here, that illustrates what I was trying to bring to light earlier. From your description, this seems to be an easily-accessible trail that is used by a mixture of people. The character of that particular trail is one that the dad of those kids feels is appropriate for their first time out. Hopefully, riding will become an experience they want to repeat, and will eventually seek out new challenges. Leaving those trees might make for minor skills efforts for experienced riders, but might be too much for the newbies that are also using this trail, so much that it turns them off from riding. Again, it's about maintaining the existing character of the trail, not sanitizing to make every trail easy. There are definitely trails where letting nature take its course, unedited, is the appropriate choice.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I don't know... I'm good with healthy debate, and several people in this thread might remember some long ones I've mixed it up in, but jochribs is getting a bit frayed. Well, I might have said that wrong... I don't think _he_ is getting frayed, but what he's picking to argue seems to be.


I'm getting frayed?? That, my man, is so rich it is giving me fits!! Dude says this, and then in subsequent posts goes on to _out *himself *_in that pretty much everything he has been claiming in this thread is...wait for it.....*wrong!! *

Oh my god, too damned good.



KobayashiMaru said:


> I'll measure the trees and post pics of a tape laying across them. They're probably not a full two feet, but I'm guessing they're 18 inches. I'll measure and then we'll know. I paced off the distance between the two trees with a heel-to-toe method, and my massive feet are shod in shoes that literally measure a foot, so 10 feet apart was very close if not spot on. Again, I'll measure and take a pic of the tape laying between them and then we'll know. Maybe that way we can at least close the book on the bickering about what can be concretely proven elements of the debate.


Uh dude, you said 2 feet. That's _*24 inches*_, not 18. And while math might be one of my strong suits, it doesn't take a genius to know that 6 inches is a pretty big difference (that's what she said). It's 25%. You later go on to also be wrong about how close the downed trees were. By two feet. I wouldn't have said that the trees were doable if they weren't. I could tell this from the pics. That all aside, it doesn't matter, they're your trails, but you offered your trails as some sort of humble brag and that's why I was and am discussing them. I just haven't been buying your reasoning because it _*sounds like made up excuses of someone that doesn't have a solid grasp on what TF it is that they're talking about. *_That's all good though. You seem to have a bunch in here fooled. 


KobayashiMaru said:


> I'm afraid I won't be able to help close the book on the claims he keeps making about how everyone sucks as riders though. Until we can all join up in one spot on a proving grounds and show we can pass his muster, he can only make assumptions about anyone's ability. His persistence on that front, however, is heroic. I feel it's a bit rude, offensive, presumptuous, it only serves to weaken his standing amongst those in the conversation, and it's all done in bad form, but hey... Nobody is perfect, I'm certainly not, and everyone is entitled to opinions. I won't try to deny anyone their ability to share them.


You later go on in this thread to show that you have indeed closed the book on the claims I keep making. And you sir suck indeed as a rider. No offense meant. I don't think I'm better than you, nor do i think you're below me (I know, same thing). But (and this is the important part), you have no business speaking as an authority on riding. A rider that can not clear a log smaller than the length of his foot without bashing his chainring into it ( and then blames absolutely everything under the sun for why) does not have one of the most basic of skills of riding _*ANY BIKE*_, let alone a mountain bike.

Boy, you sure do talk a lot though.

Please, let me know again, how was I being presumptuous?? And more importantly, was I wrong. LMAO! 
Standing with the people of this forum?? As if I give two sh!ts?? You will be served well to wrap your head around the fact that I only started being disrespectful *after *I was disrespected. Very simple. And by a bunch of f***ing knobs too.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Zero twisted words. I've been pretty clear and straight-forward with everything I've posted.

Other than challenge your off-target assumptions about me, what I have not done in all this is personally insult you, belittle you, or question your abilities. In fact, I acknowledged that I understood where you were coming from, the point your were trying to make, and agreed that there were times that leaving fallen logs was appropriate for a trail . Meanwhile, you have continued to insult, belittle, and question the abilities of every other person in this thread who has a difference of opinion. Why so delicate, bro?

You are probably are a better bike-handler than I currently am. That's awesome. Based on how you have continued to repeatedly boast about your skills in order to establish the superiority of your opinion, I can only conclude that you're the best bike handler EVER!! You should post some video of you shredding. Personally, I don't use my bike-handling skills as a measure of my self-worth. I'm not as good a rider as I used to be, and I'm totally okay with it. I wouldn't trade any bit of the life I have built for my family, or the dedication I've put into helping my kids' have success in their sports, to be as awesome a bike gawd as you.

I have to note that you're in a pretty special class. I've been on discussion forums for a lot of years, covering a bunch of different topics. It's not very often that I've run into someone like you. Yep. You're special. Your ability to move goalposts is also remarkable.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I realize that, but I already have an extra 12 pounds on the bike from the dropper cable, both derailleurs, and the lockouts. I don't need any more additions.


I really hope that this is a comment made in jest.

12 pounds? *TWELVE POUNDS?? *
And even if so (which isn't remotely possible for that weight to be accrued from those parts), why would that keep you from being able to negotiate a log that small.

You have done my job for me, proving that what I have been saying all along was correct. At least in your case... but I am willing to bet that at least one other that has been so staunchly ass hole-ish about my defense of logs and similar obstructions remaining across trails, is probably just as bad at riding as you are...hence the triggered comments (oh excuse me, opinions). Nothing brings out the butthurt trolls like a form of mountain biking being advocated for that upsets their applecart and triggers their insecurities.

But boy, oh boy do you cats talk a big game.

Remind me again...what do modern bikes have to do with *NOT *being able to negotiate tech and bunny hop? The reason you can't flow with obstructions like that is because your skills are lacking what every mountain biker _*on the f***ing planet should be able to do if they call themselves a mountain biker. *_Hell, I've bunny hopped bigger stuff than that on my road bike. Seriously.

Again, this needs to be reiterated...

There's nothing wrong with you (or anyone else) because you can't do what I'm talking about. There's nothing wrong with you (or anyone else) because you are shaky on a bike and may or may not ever have the skill that I am talking about. But there is sure as sh!t something wrong with you (and anyone else) when you can't do these basic things, and yet still think that you have the f***ing right to talk as some sort of authority on the matter. With all due respect, please just shut up.

The things I'm talking about being able to do (that you can't do, and have 2 million excuses for) used to be mountain biking 101. Welcome to the new age. Dumbed down riders and basic trails (excuse me, multi-use).


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Eric F said:


> Zero twisted words. I've been pretty clear and straight-forward with everything I've posted.
> 
> Other than challenge your off-target assumptions about me, what I have not done in all this is personally insult you, belittle you, or question your abilities. In fact, I acknowledged that I understood where you were coming from, the point your were trying to make, and agreed that there were times that leaving fallen logs was appropriate for a trail . Meanwhile, you have continued to insult, belittle, and question the abilities of every other person in this thread who has a difference of opinion. Why so delicate, bro?
> 
> ...


Majority twisted words. Pretty good at spinning, you are.

And off target assumptions? You claim that you were a contender back in the 90's, but went to road and crits. Sounds like you were one of those riders that couldn't hack it in the woods?? So you went to road? Let me guess, you were one of those roadies that came to race CX after they started _removing _barriers on the courses, making it a road race??? You state that I'm probably a better bike handler than you. I'd bet money you're right. And that's only because I value having the skill and have earned it. XC, Road, CX. Didn't make excuses.

You are making some lofty claims about my self worth in relation to what I'm talking about. I think that's called a straw man argument. You think you sound legitimate and you most likely do to anyone that shares you pin-headed bias in this debate. The only reason I have stated that the ability of those that have nothing to do but talk **** about my objective opinion on page 2, most likely did so because they were triggered by their insecurity as to not being able to do what I was talking about. That's morphed into me being full of myself, and well, at this point I don't give a sh!t. I'll let you think that. I'm not full of myself, you just suck. And yet, you think your opinion should matter. Bottom line, I think you and a couple others in here are clowns that shouldn't be offering their opinions as authoritative last words. Not when they don't have the background to back it up. Full stop. You need to shut up.

Lol!! Love the moving goal posts zinger too. How haven't _*you*_ done that? Did you open a book and look for all the argument technique descriptions? Hav fun riding washed out ADA compliant trails and getting bent out of shape because you probably stunk at riding when what I was talking about was common, and you are just so relieved that your 'multi-use' trails won't force you to ever contend with that again. Smooth sailing from here on out!! Thank goodness!!


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

jochribs said:


> I'm getting frayed?


No, you read that wrong. Go back and pay attention. I clarified that you yourself weren't getting frayed, but the things you were picking to argue about were getting frayed. There is a difference.



jochribs said:


> Uh dude, you said 2 feet.


I have to admit at this point I can't remember what I said about that. I'd go back through the whole thread and quote myself, but I don't think I need to. I might have guessed they were two feet across, but I more so remember you getting a little irate about how they couldn't be two feet from the look of the photos. Since I hadn't measured them I thought I would so we would both know the reality instead of arguing about the possibility of what they were.



jochribs said:


> You later go on to also be wrong about how close the downed trees were. By two feet


And yes, I clarified that with an explanation of my mistake and a photo that showed how I made the mistake. I measured from the closest distance at first, but then realized on the next trip the one tree fell across the trail at an angle, so I adjusted my measurement. Nobody is perfect. We all mistakes. At least I'm big enough to admit when I make them instead of dripping with so much hubris like some people around here.



jochribs said:


> You later go on in this thread to show that you have indeed closed the book on the claims I keep making.


I don't recall doing that at all. I said I could measure what was concrete in reality so at least those points would no longer be argued based on assumption. I'm not comfortable making assumptions and then arguing points based off of them, because that makes people look foolish. I don't mean to be rude to you, but you've been making massive assumptions about people here and you've been ramming your arguments based off of them down people's throats. If I told you I had a million dollars in the bank, you can assume I'm full of crap, and you can talk all sorts of trash about me not having any money, but then if I show you I do indeed have a million dollars in the bank, you should realize your folly.



jochribs said:


> you have no business speaking as an authority on riding


If I've ever spoken as an authority on riding here, I'll gladly chop my johnson off myself. I make it clear all the time I'm nothing special. I am however an authority on the riding _I do_, and when other people who have never ridden with me speak to me as an authority on that, it rubs me the wrong way.



jochribs said:


> A rider that can not clear a log smaller than the length of his foot without bashing his chainring into it


Dude, I think you're so pissed that people aren't just backing off of all your hot air that you can't see what people are really saying. I at least have the ability to admit when I'm wrong, and that long post about why I felt like a douche for getting rid of that log is proof of my ability to realize and admit my errors. I don't know that you have that ability. If you did, you'd back off a bit and realize you're being super aggressive.

I also explained that I can clear things bigger than that in other instances when I'm not so tuckered out. I explained I'm plowing ahead like a moron on the trail and forgetting how to do things better. Is there another way for me to illustrate to you I'm conceding the fact I'm guilty of exhibiting poor technique? You obviously didn't pick up I was doing that. You also didn't pick up on my remorse for getting rid of that log, nor did you realize I have seen your point of view, possibly because you're so mad you're choosing only to see things that will anger you further?



jochribs said:


> I only started being disrespectful *after *I was disrespected


I don't know exactly who you're talking about having initially disrespected you, but I try really hard around here to not do that until the BS gets extremely thick, so I don't think I did it. If I did, I didn't realize I'd done it, and like I can admit I was tackling an obstacle on the trail the wrong way, I'll admit there's a possibility I might have said something to you in the wrong way. If you can clarify to me what I did to disrespect you that would have been unwarranted and out of the blue, I'll directly apologize for saying it. If it wasn't me that set you off and started all of your wailing and gnashing of teeth and perhaps I was just in the discussion afterwards, could you then be big enough to admit you've been a bit much for the last few days?


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

jochribs said:


> I think you and a couple others in here are clowns that shouldn't be offering their opinions as authoritative last words. Not when they don't have the background to back it up. Full stop. You need to shut up.


And there is it in a nutshell - LMAO. The ONLY person trying to be authoritative about their opinion is you, justified by the self-assessment of your superior riding skills.

I bet you're a lot of fun at parties.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Eric F said:


> And there is it in a nutshell - LMAO. The ONLY person trying to be authoritative about their opinion is you, justified by the self-assessment of your superior riding skills.
> 
> I bet you're a lot of fun at parties.


Dude, I'm a hoot! I just don't go to parties with tools like you!


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

jochribs said:


> Dude, I'm a hoot!


I wrote you a big post about 20 minutes ago but haven't gotten a reply to that. I'm hoping what I wrote will cool your jets a bit. If you can't see that it should, that makes me feel sad. Am I being too optimistic in hoping for a little softening on your part? I think it's time we see some, especially after what I last wrote to you.

I'm hoping you're taking this time to write up something nice, but I'm afraid you might be somewhere else in another thread berating other people that don't really deserve it there either.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

You guys have been fun. I'll let you continue to contradict yourselves!


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I wrote you a big post about 20 minutes ago but haven't gotten a reply to that. I'm hoping what I wrote will cool your jets a bit. If you can't see that it should, that makes me feel sad. Am I being too optimistic in hoping for a little softening on your part? I think it's time we see some, especially after what I last wrote to you.
> 
> I'm hoping you're taking this time to write up something nice, but I'm afraid you might be somewhere else in another thread berating other people that don't really deserve it there either.


Yes, that's exactly what I have been doing!! Berating other people in other threads!! LMAO! Dude, this has been literally fun. Jets are (and have been) cool. Gonna go on another big ride tomorrow. Things are good. Just wish trails around me weren't made for the bottom percent. Which is the basis of this thread.

Have fun out there! Remember that whatever you think is really impossible is possibly quite simple for someone else. Up your game.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

jochribs said:


> Remember that whatever you think is really impossible is possibly quite simple for someone else. Up your game.


There are many facets to mountain biking. For a guy that freely admitted I can't bunny hop more than 8 inches, and I even do that the wrong way, I might be able to smoke dudes up a climb that can bunny hop into the bed of a pickup. I might be able to pick a cleaner line on a descent. I'll say with no reservation everyone can beat me through curves. The list of my strengths and weaknesses goes on.

After this experience, if I ever get an unsolicited compliment on any aspect of my riding, I'll be sure to tell the person giving it that all the glory goes to the great jochribs, a man so far beyond reproach, he can undeniably consider himself void of any of the flaws mere mortals suffer, a man so amazing in his riding skills that everyone who basks in his light, everyone that has heard tell of his legendary prowess, is so inspired to better themselves that they simply have no choice but to improve so they may one day dare to dream of being a lowly accolyte in the shadow of their master, and may then earn his approval.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

jochribs said:


> People don't have to agree with me, but they should also not be butthurt when I respond to their speaking to me as if they have the last word on _my opinion. That's _where my attitude is coming in to this.


So having said that, do you see how you've been responding to us as if you have the last word on our ability? It's not ok for people to do that to you, but you have no problem doing it to us.

If you can't see that, I feel bad for you.

All of the mountain bike opinions aside, you're just treating people poorly. You softened up a bit with JB Weld, so I know you can do it. It would go a long way to your credit if you would admit you might have been a bit rude to a few of us.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

jochribs said:


> No, I'm really sorry. I figured you were being dismissive. I clearly was wrong and I'm sorry about it.


I spoke too soon. I saw you apologize in post number 55 and thought you had eased up a bit. You actually went on to trash him pretty hard as the days went on.

At least you are capable of admitting you are wrong. And you can say you are sorry. I just wish you'd be more grown up and do it again, to about a dozen people.


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

I have no issue with the addition of flow trails, even though they tend to be the last thing I want to ride. I do have an issue with the "improvement" of great old school trails with berms at so many previously-challenging corners.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

What are you old farts arguing about up there??

~

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

Felt like a curmudgeon this weekend when I yielded to 6-8 riders in a row in the span of a few minutes as I went uphill, off camber, in a rock patch...as they all rolled down hill and not a single one said thanks, hello, smiled, nodded or waved.

I have zero problems yielding, I'm just out for fun, not racing or PRs. But c'mon folks. If someone is nice enough totally stop and let you pass on a single-track trail, you gotta give some acknowledgement of this


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jochribs said:


> You said it, not me ?
> That's what he said.
> 
> That's not helping it be any cooler. It's fake. It's placed in an area that very well may have had actual tech removed, for that to then be 'inserted' to the ah's and oooh's of the crowd. (Maybe not in that case in particular, but that happens more than it doesn't.)
> ...


There's a guy building a bunch of these dory contraptions into one of my favorite trail systems and I hate them.
Worse even than the balance beam/teeter-totter crap are the wooden "berms". Two years down the road and all this BS is slippery as hell and in need of repair. Stuff should all be relegated to little 'skills park' areas or designated tinker-toy trails.

Dirt and rock FTW.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> Not really sure. I think it has something to do with the BB height to wheel diameter ratio. After being on 22" for a bit, I rode someone's 20" and it felt much more natural. I think the BB was just too high on the 22"...it was just an odd combo of unstable due to the BB height yet cumbersome due to the bigger wheels.


22's and 24's tend to feel weird to me in general, with the exception of my buddy's old Tonic Fab 24", which ruled.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Eric F said:


> This was a really enjoyable ride a friend and I did a couple of weeks ago... Chilao Figure-8 Loop Mountain Bike Trail, Monrovia, California
> 
> I suppose you could call these multi-use trails since they get used by more than just MTBs. mtbproject rates them both as black


After watching the video, anyone who rated that terrain 'black' must have been on their first ride without training wheels.
LOL!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KobayashiMaru said:


> View attachment 1945729
> 
> 
> In deference to those who would rather leave these things on the trail, I went back and cleared it a second time, just to see if it affected the experience in a measurable enough way to warrant removal. Of course it slowed me down, but worse than that, my chainring ate into the tree both times. I'm assuming I hit it in the same exact place each time because I only see two substantial gouges. Mine was on the left, and the other one looked like it happened yesterday.
> ...


So, looking at the picture and reading how little kids on Walmart bikes are rolling around out there, I'm going to agree with removing the log as this doesn't remotely resemble anything close to what I would consider an actual MTB trail, the presence of 'hard core bikers' notwithstanding.

K-M: get your ass out of the saddle and unweight your pedals as your front wheels rolls off the log. And do it at something better than a walking pace. Seriously. 
You're welcome in advance.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> After watching the video, anyone who rated that terrain 'black' must have been on their first ride without training wheels.
> LOL!


I consider the descent off Mt. Hillyer just fun - fast parts, twisty parts, rocky parts, no significant threat of death. On my most recent time up there, my friend and I went by a number of others who seemed fairly challenged by the terrain. Nice bikes, but not a lot of skills.

I have no idea how the mtbproject trail rating system defines different categories.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Eric F said:


> I consider the descent off Mt. Hillyer just fun - fast parts, twisty parts, rocky parts, no significant threat of death. On my most recent time up there, my friend and I went by a number of others who seemed fairly challenged by the terrain. Nice bikes, but not a lot of skills.
> 
> I have no idea how the mtbproject trail rating system defines different categories.


I kept seeing what looks like all sorts of wasted potential in the background - seems like there are plenty of really cool rock formations out there that would be a hoot to route a trail over.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

slapheadmofo said:


> You're welcome in advance.


Yes, that section is the main artery that connects some of the easiest parts to the rest of the system. I'm thinking years ago it must have been a path for wagons or vehicles, because it's at least a 10 foot wide swath through the woods where there are no trees. There are 8 different sections adding up to 6.5 miles, and the families are seen mostly traversing that particular stretch between the trail head and the easier parts. Before the easy, quarter mile loop they're usually on, there is a harder section with some demanding climbs, and as I've already said, I'm sucking a ton of wind at the point that log was on the ground while I try to recuperate after having ridden the first 3 miles of the course.

I've mentioned plenty of times in this forum over the last year or so that I'm no magician on my bike. I would only rate myself "hard core" in my passion for being on the bike and the amount of time I spend on it given the extremely limited amount of time I could possibly even be on the bike. I make riding a priority. I'm home less than 50 hours total in a given week, and that includes sleeping hours three nights a week (if I even get home that much). I'll ride that trail 2 or 3 times a week, and I'll get somewhere around 4-6 hours on the bike. I realize other people can do more, but they have more time than I have.

If I could be guilty of calling myself "hard core", it would maybe be in my willingness to ride the entire system from start to finish compared to everyone else who seems to repeat the easier parts. So far this year, out of the 300 or so people that have ever done the full course in one shot as evidenced on Strava, there's less than 30 that have done the full lap. If I go out there at all, I ride the full lap. Sometimes I'll do it twice if I've got enough energy and time. I ride other trails within an hour or so of my home, one of which is a 10.5 mile course in the state points circuit, and when people on that trail find out where I ride most of the time, they usually say they don't like my home trail because it's got too much climbing. It's not an easy trail. You have to work. Given the ass beating Covid put on me last year, there absolutely are sections of that trail where I'm barely keeping the bicycle moving, and as you mentioned, having a bit of speed will open up your options to getting over something with ease. I'll apologize now and say I'm sorry to everyone I suck so much I can't fly at top speed over the entire course, and because of that, logs on the trail annoy me.

And also, I admit that while dealing with fatigue and brain fog, I just plowed into the tree and didn't use any finesse that I otherwise would have anywhere else when I have more energy and ability to actually think. I know how to get my rear wheel onto something a foot tall... I just didn't that day. I'm sure I'm not the only person that's ever been so tired they did something stupid on the bike.

But thank you to those that took the time to illustrate what I had done wrong. As I spent time explaining, after I realized the bonehead mistake I made getting over that log I admitted I felt like a douche and could see where people want stuff like that to stay on the trail.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> I kept seeing what looks like all sorts of wasted potential in the background - seems like there are plenty of really cool rock formations out there that would be a hoot to route a trail over.


No doubt. However, like most of the trails in the area, it was created long before anyone considered riding their bike on it.

This guy took some "creative" lines in a few of the rocky sections... 




Personally, I'm not a big fan of creating wear and tear on the wilderness outside of established trails, especially since this is National Forest land.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Eric F said:


> No doubt. However, like most of the trails in the area, it was created long before anyone considered riding their bike on it.
> 
> This guy took some "creative" lines in a few of the rocky sections...
> 
> ...


Nothing handles wear and tear better than rock. 

He dug up a couple lines . I did find myself yelling 'Dude- you missed it!" a bunch of times during that video LOL!.
Kept seeing things that reminded me of some of the fun granite we have in New England.
This is what passes for 'black' up here. Much of this stuff has been in play since the 90s too.

Nice thing about lots of big rocks is it's tough for people to dumb them out of the trail so that they don't have to ever get off their bikes. Hell, even Lenosky dabs a few times in this video and laughs about it, which really puts in perspective how lame it is when beginners (or experienced but 'entitled' riders) think that trails should to be adjusted down to their skill level.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> Nothing handles wear and tear better than rock.
> 
> He dug up a couple lines . I did find myself yelling 'Dude- you missed it!" a bunch of times during that video LOL!.
> Kept seeing things that reminded me of some of the fun granite we have in New England.
> This is what passes for 'black' up here. Much of this stuff has been in play since the 90s too.


That trail looks amazing! I would love to have ridden that when I was younger, stronger, and had a little more testicular fortitude. Maybe being on a squishy 29er would help. My old rigid singlespeed 26er isn't particularly forgiving...but I still love it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Eric F said:


> That trail looks amazing! I would love to have ridden that when I was younger, stronger, and had a little more testicular fortitude. Maybe being on a squishy 29er would help. My old rigid singlespeed 26er isn't particularly forgiving...but I still love it.


Some of the best riders I've ever been to that place with rocked rigid SS, along with a number of the OG builders.
We used to ride there all the time on 90's hardtails. Squishy 29ers actually kind of suck in that sort of terrain IMHO; they're just not as precise or accelerate-able.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> Some of the best riders I've ever been to that place with rocked rigid SS, along with a number of the OG builders.
> We used to ride there all the time on 90's hardtails. Squishy 29ers actually kind of suck in that sort of terrain IMHO; they're just not as precise or accelerate-able.


Hmmm...valid point. I haven't ridden anything in the dirt that wasn't a rigid 26. I'm recently back to it after almost 20 years, and still riding my old Trek 9900 race bike with a couple of recent mods (singlespeed and shorter/wider cockpit). I do enjoy its maneuverability compared to the way my buddies have to wrangle their big bikes. That said, I could see myself on a rigid 29er. Maybe someday...


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## 02Slayer (Mar 5, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> Some of the best riders I've ever been to that place with rocked rigid SS, along with a number of the OG builders.
> We used to ride there all the time on 90's hardtails. Squishy 29ers actually kind of suck in that sort of terrain IMHO; they're just not as precise or accelerate-able.


Gotta disagree about 29s sucking there, just my opinion. The majority of my friends who still ride Lynn multiple times weekly are on 29ers, and this one seems to be one a few of them love. I get up there from the Cape from time to time, I used to ride there weekly from 1998 - 2010 when I lived in Sommerville & then Gloucester and 2013-2016 when I lived in Danvers. My Pivot Firebird is a great choice as well, I've had it there a couple times so far and I felt it was probably the best bike I have ridden there, which would include a '99 Cannondale Super V 500, a 2002 Rocky Mountain Slayer, a 2005 Santa Cruz Heckler, a 2013 Ibis Mojo HD (my XC bike now) and my 2020 Firebird. The Ibis was converted to 27.5 and rides OK there, but with a Fox 34 its just not quite up to the task with my 220 lbs slamming it around.

I have a theory about the OP's original point about trails getting sanitized, smoothed out, and wimpified. My theory places a good share of blame on the influence of Strava on modern riders. I remember when stopping and seshing moves WAS the ride. If I missed a ride with my crew, I would have never asked them how fast they did Bow Ridge. I'd ask them if they cleared the Route One rock, or made it up The Funnel, or succesfully pulled off the Double Drop on Surf City, which Jeff did in that video. Mad Respect. Now, I encounter a lot of riders WAY, WAY more interested in their Stava rank on every segment they ride than if they cleaned a challenging wall ride or some huge up and over boulder obstacle. And I see things going that way more and more. Not at Lynn, but many other spots.

I have a group of guys I will ride with for XC cardio training that wouldn't dream of stopping on a ride to clean a move, they avaoid them lest their AVG speed for the ride drop. These are fast guys, they ride for that purpose and I ride with them to make an effort to stay in some kind of max output for long stretches shape. And I think that's really it. *People want easy and fast so others can see their times on Strava (or some other platform) and be impressed.* I don't particularly care myself, I know many of the fast riders in my area, I'm not really fast among them, I'm in the middle to back on long XC hammer fests, but riding with them keeps me in shape (sort of). I 100% prefer the stop and sesh a feature until we all, or at least one of us pulls it off, but that's not how many people ride today, at least not around here and a lot of other places I've ridden over the last 10 years. The Lynn crews are the exception in my world. And one of those fast XC guys used to ride Lynn weekly back in the day on his VooDoo hardtail!! But he has moved onto other things, he's 54 and has had his fill of slams into giant granite blocks. Hard to blame him. Watch the video. Imagine just one of those moves going very wrong. And eventually the do. Strava segments are more important to him now than technical prowess. I'm glad he is a happy dude, one of my great friends, and if that's what he is into I'm fine with it. He's placed in races, and is considered one of the stronger XC riders around, especially in the long-distance type rides. I have another crew that I do the stop and sesh rides with, and I enjoy that tremendously. We don't have nearly as much technical stuff on the Cape as Lynn, but we do have some. And one dude who is really coming on strong is a guy that began as a Strava segment KOMer, a former roadie with that mindset. But he caught the technical riding bug so now we go out looking for stuff to hit, try it a few times, then ride really fast to the next thing to hit. At Lynn, it's move, after move, after move. Very intense and not for everybody.

This is longer than I intended, but the point is, I believe there is a social media type influence to riding that makes people want the quicker time so their followers can see it on some platform, and they may or may not even be aware of the old school technical experience laced with pain, hard work, and eventually victory (hopefully!) that I grew up with. There's also a huge emphasis in today's media on kepping everything and everyone REALLY, REALLY INCREDIBLY SAFE!! And this makes them want fast flowy trails, no stops, no hard technical moves, or minimized when at all possible. I could be way off, but I think this plays a part.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

^^I spent many years as an avid road rider, was really happy to get away from some aspects of that scene when I got a mtb bike last fall.

I honestly had no idea some mtb riders
a) clock their rides
b) ride in full Lycra


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

02Slayer said:


> Gotta disagree about 29s sucking there, just my opinion. The majority of my friends who still ride Lynn multiple times weekly are on 29ers, and this one seems to be one a few of them love. I get up there from the Cape from time to time, I used to ride there weekly from 1998 - 2010 when I lived in Sommerville & then Gloucester and 2013-2016 when I lived in Danvers. My Pivot Firebird is a great choice as well, I've had it there a couple times so far and I felt it was probably the best bike I have ridden there, which would include a '99 Cannondale Super V 500, a 2002 Rocky Mountain Slayer, a 2005 Santa Cruz Heckler, a 2013 Ibis Mojo HD (my XC bike now) and my 2020 Firebird. The Ibis was converted to 27.5 and rides OK there, but with a Fox 34 its just not quite up to the task with my 220 lbs slamming it around.
> 
> I have a theory about the OP's original point about trails getting sanitized, smoothed out, and wimpified. My theory places a good share of blame on the influence of Strava on modern riders. I remember when stopping and seshing moves WAS the ride. If I missed a ride with my crew, I would have never asked them how fast they did Bow Ridge. I'd ask them if they cleared the Route One rock, or made it up The Funnel, or succesfully pulled off the Double Drop on Surf City, which Jeff did in that video. Mad Respect. Now, I encounter a lot of riders WAY, WAY more interested in their Stava rank on every segment they ride than if they cleaned a challenging wall ride or some huge up and over boulder obstacle. And I see things going that way more and more. Not at Lynn, but many other spots.
> 
> ...


Very valid point, IMO. The Strava influence is pretty significant, both on the road and in the dirt. In my days of XC racing in the '90s, we were paying attention to times on our local climbs, but challenging trails were about trying to ride them clean. That said, I've never been the type (or ridden with the type) who backs up and repeats an obstacle during a ride. I would guess a big part of that there isn't much in my area that is the same kind of lower-speed, obstacle-fest like in the video posted by slapheadmofo. Our terrain is more long climbs and long descents.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

02Slayer said:


> This is longer than I intended, but the point is, I believe there is a social media type influence to riding that makes people want the quicker time so their followers can see it on some platform, and they may or may not even be aware of the old school technical experience laced with pain, hard work, and eventually victory (hopefully!) that I grew up with. There's also a huge emphasis in today's media on kepping everything and everyone REALLY, REALLY INCREDIBLY SAFE!! And this makes them want fast flowy trails, no stops, no hard technical moves, or minimized when at all possible. I could be way off, but I think this plays a part.


This isn't a new thing. It may be newish to some places, but when I was learning to ride in the midwest in the 90's, before GPS and Strava, people talked about their stopwatch times for a piece of trail. And some folks legitimately kept track of these in a spreadsheet and the "fastest known times" were discussed ad nauseam. I never really enjoyed that part of riding, but there also weren't very good places to stop and session or goof around on trails back then. I used to do that stuff in town. Thankfully, builders in that area HAVE built some more technical trails out there that have some sessionable stuff in other areas.

Thing is, the terrain has to support it. In some pieces of property, you're just not going to have many options for technical stuff unless it's constructed (which MANY land managers want to avoid). In large parts of the midwest, the terrain is flat or rolling at best, and mostly just clay soil. Nary a rock in sight. Logs might be the ONLY tech riders might see there. Log piles were some of the earliest tech features I learned to ride. I don't hold any particular love of them, though. Even in those early days for me, trees were generally never allowed to just sit by themselves. If they were little and inconsequential, they got removed either by someone moving brush, or in not terribly much time because they'd rot. If they were bigger, it didn't take long for someone to build a ramp out of them. Maybe it'd be an actual ramp you could jump off, or maybe it'd be ramped on both sides. The trees were never left to force people to learn to hop the tree unassisted or walk over. Depending on the location of the trail system (closer or farther from where ppl lived) and who managed it, it might take longer for fallen trees to be dealt with, but they would all be dealt with eventually. Never left indefinitely. It still works the same way, honestly. The more people use a trail, and the more different user groups use the trail, the sooner downed trees are removed.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

02Slayer said:


> ...snip...


Good stuff. 

We've probably crossed paths at some point or other. 
RIP Bow Ridge.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Eric F said:


> I've never been the type (or ridden with the type) who backs up and repeats an obstacle during a ride.


There's no other way to learn.

I guess that's why so many people these days have trouble with the slightest of technical challenges; everybody is in a big hurry to get back to the parking lot as fast as possible for whatever reason.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> There's no other way to learn.
> 
> I guess that's why so many people these days have trouble with the slightest of technical challenges; everybody is in a big hurry to get back to the parking lot as fast as possible for whatever reason.


I learned by just trying to do it better the next time I rode that trail. I've never been one to go out with the focused intent of developing my MTB tech skills in the same manner that I worked on certain aspects of fitness for road racing. In the dirt, I just ride, and deal with whatever terrain I have to deal with.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Our area has a ton of mountain bikers, so I have the luxury of riding with lots of different groups that seem to have different priorities. One group is training for their next XC or CX race and puts down the hammer for some good aerobic work and some big miles. Another likes to stop and session the technical stuff over and over until everyone gets it. Yet another is out for the social aspect and stops frequently to talk and take photos. All types are valid as long as they are not modifying the trails. 

My personal preference is slow, techy old hiking trails partially because my first several years on MTB had a lot of tech session rides. Back in the 80s there weren't really any other options where I was. These days I like that hard technical stuff as part of a long and fast ride.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> I guess that's why so many people these days have trouble with the slightest of technical challenges; everybody is in a big hurry to get back to the parking lot as fast as possible for whatever reason.


I think the type of person/rider MTB attracted has widened over the years. There are a lot of people who just want something fun to do occasionally. Some just want to get some exercise outdoors, some live for the jumps, and some are hardcore riders that want to be super fit and be able to ride everything up and down. There are plenty of young riders who are technically proficient. I think some older riders would like to believe their skill set is a lost art or something. The reality is mountain biking just appeals to a wider base now.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> I think the type of person/rider MTB attracted has widened over the years. There are a lot of people who just want something fun to do occasionally. Some just want to get some exercise outdoors, some live for the jumps, and some are hardcore riders that want to be super fit and be able to ride everything up and down. There are plenty of young riders who are technically proficient. I think some older riders would like to believe their skill set is a lost art or something. The reality is mountain biking just appeals to a wider base now.


I think you're right. As trails have gotten less challenging (for the most part) and bikes have gotten more capable (for the most part), the sport has gotten more accessible for those who would never have stuck with it bitd. Which is great (for the most part) until and unless some of those people start feeling that more and more challenge needs to be removed anywhere they come across it and try to turn every trail into something they personally can easily master.

I know and sometimes ride and build with quite a few ~HS age kids that absolutely crush it and make the stuff we used to do look silly. That's why it's not hard to find the 15-18 y/o classes beating the pro times at races these days.

From what I've found, older newbies are way more likely to want things to be made easy than younger ones. 
The 30 and 40 somethings who haven't been riding for ages are the ones taking out logs and rocks, while the kids are out building big drops and adding real lips to the jumps on our old shuttle runs. At least that's how it is around here.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

jeremy3220 said:


> I think some older riders would like to believe their skill set is a lost art or something.


Mine is. I used to have it. Now it's gone, and I can't find it.


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## blackfly (May 1, 2005)

jeremy3220 said:


> I think the type of person/rider MTB attracted has widened over the years. There are a lot of people who just want something fun to do occasionally. Some just want to get some exercise outdoors, some live for the jumps, and some are hardcore riders that want to be super fit and be able to ride everything up and down. There are plenty of young riders who are technically proficient. I think some older riders would like to believe their skill set is a lost art or something. The reality is mountain biking just appeals to a wider base now.


True and not true.

Here in Vancouver it has widened the collection of people only by limiting the entrance requirements; and I am sure this is the case everywhere else. Smooth trails require no skill to ride so anyone can do it. Tech trails take commitment, time and courage which is something most new riders don't have or want to pay the price for. Jumps are not hard for those with youth under their belt, and frankly there is an element of personality to it. You are either a risk taker or not.

I see a lot of new riders whom go down nothing but the groomed stuff and never stray from that. Worse, they don't learn any tech survival skills to prepare them for harder trails so they never get the inkling to do them. Riding is appealing only because it is made to cater to the lowest common denominator which isn't saying much. For example; Bobsled, a VERY popular trail on Fromme where I ride, is so groomed you can go down it on rollerblades (it has been done) and I have personally seen someone taking a kid down the the trail in a trailer attached to the bike. All my years I never thought I would live to see that but I did. And it had nothing to do with the fact the guy had skill, it was a 29er, or a full suspension bike. The trail is that smooth.

How is that progression?


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## 02Slayer (Mar 5, 2004)

Eric F said:


> Very valid point, IMO. The Strava influence is pretty significant, both on the road and in the dirt. In my days of XC racing in the '90s, we were paying attention to times on our local climbs, but challenging trails were about trying to ride them clean. That said, I've never been the type (or ridden with the type) who backs up and repeats an obstacle during a ride. I would guess a big part of that there isn't much in my area that is the same kind of lower-speed, obstacle-fest like in the video posted by slapheadmofo. Our terrain is more long climbs and long descents.


I understand that style of riding, based on my time out in SoCal in 2012/13. I rode Aliso Wodds and a bunch of stuff in San Clemente, where I lived. There really wasn't much tech, just long climbs and long downs, and lots of flow style trails, very smooth. I enjoyed it, and thought it was hilarious when they showed me their little "North Shore" section with a couple bridges about 4 feet off the ground. It was cute. I had a similar experience when I rode out in Jolliet, Illinois. Except those dudes built some of the most insanely gigantic ladder-bridge-corckscrew monstrosities I've ever seen. Seriously, some of them went up into the tops of the trees. The place was called Challenge Park Extreme, or CPX, and they wound up closing those stunts down. I heard it was because one of the main ringleaders finally bit it on a massive stunt and broke his back. Flattest place in the USA but the biggest stunts I've ever seen.

When you don't have technical features around I totally get riding for speed and going Strava silly. It's in the places where there is tech stuff and they try and remove the fun stuff that I can't get behind.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

blackfly said:


> Jumps are not hard for those with youth under their belt, and frankly there is an element of personality to it. You are either a risk taker or not.


I disagree. Jumping is the higher level skill. By jumping I mean actual jumps with lips, not the amorphous lumps found on a lot of public flow trails. I've never met anyone who has actual jumping skills and was bad at riding tech. They're both (jumps and tech) the same fundamental skill (row/antirow) but jumping generally requires a greater deal of refinement. I feel quit confident that I could take anyone competent at hitting a rhythm section of doubles and teach them to ride black diamond tech fairly quickly. I wouldn't feel as confident guarunteeing that someone proficient at riding tech is going to be able to learn to jump.

For example, the log people were arguing about in this thread is nothing for someone that can ride actual dirt jumps and it's kind of hilarious that people are arguing about it.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

Just to chime in on the types of riders discussion. I did some very light "mtb" biking as a teenager, mainly power line dirt trails. Was an avid road and cross/gravel rider for about the past two decades. Finally got a nice FS mtb bike used last fall from a friend of a friend. I often ride with that friend, who has been a serious mtb since he was a teenager and rides 3-4 times a week.

I ride usually once a week, all I can fit in right now. My fitness is still pretty solid because of my road years I commute 5-6 times a week and use it as a workout. My handling is pretty good from racing cross. All other skills are very much so-so. I'm pretty much land-based.

I love being in the woods, being off the road, learning new riding skills and techniques. I do it purely for fun. Can't jump, can't even hop things.

I am very much a beginner in most aspects. Don't care how fast I go, I purely ride for fun. I also thought leaving behind roadies, I'd leave behind jerks on bikes. Nah, I've realized there are plenty of egomaniacs/general maniacs who ride mtb, which is unfortunate.

All of that said, absolutely LOVE that I now have a mtb bike and have one more type of riding I can have fun with on a weekend/weekday morning.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

blackfly said:


> True and not true.
> 
> Here in Vancouver it has widened the collection of people only by limiting the entrance requirements; and I am sure this is the case everywhere else. Smooth trails require no skill to ride so anyone can do it. Tech trails take commitment, time and courage which is something most new riders don't have or want to pay the price for. Jumps are not hard for those with youth under their belt, and frankly there is an element of personality to it. You are either a risk taker or not.
> 
> ...


I agree- Bobsled is an abomination and should be removed from the Fromme trail system. Last time I was there it was recommended to me, so I tried it. 100 feet in and I was like "where are the 8' high skinnies and jank." Thankfully I wiped that nonsense off with a lap down Upper Oilcan followed by Ladies Only.


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## blackfly (May 1, 2005)

cookieMonster said:


> I agree- Bobsled is an abomination and should be removed from the Fromme trail system. Last time I was there it was recommended to me, so I tried it. 100 feet in and I was like "where are the 8' high skinnies and jank." Thankfully I wiped that nonsense off with a lap down Upper Oilcan followed by Ladies Only.


I don't know where you parked for your ride but to locals the parking lot at the top of Mountain Highway is called "The Daycare". Here. parents with kids tow their younglings up to Bobsled with ebikes or not only to have them experience the Shore for the first time, or not. Strange in that Bobsled is anything but "Shore". It is actually embarrassing in that you know that this is not something you would of seen until the parking lot was made and was able to make riding that more accessible to those whom are use to having to work it up to get a ride. Notice that this doesn't even take into account they are there in the first place because the rides are easy, smooth and non-consequential (at least to real trails that are still around like the aforementioned ones you rode).


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

blackfly said:


> I don't know where you parked for your ride but to locals the parking lot at the top of Mountain Highway is called "The Daycare". Here. parents with kids tow their younglings up to Bobsled with ebikes or not only to have them experience the Shore for the first time, or not. Strange in that Bobsled is anything but "Shore". It is actually embarrassing in that you know that this is not something you would of seen until the parking lot was made and was able to make riding that more accessible to those whom are use to having to work it up to get a ride. Notice that this doesn't even take into account they are there in the first place because the rides are easy, smooth and non-consequential (at least to real trails that are still around like the aforementioned ones you rode).


It was quite a few years back. I think I parked along Mtn Highway somewhere.

To be fair though, until Bobsled was built there was literally nothing on Mt Fromme appropriate for beginners or possibly even intermediate riders for that matter. It's just that the full machine-built, manicured dirt sidewalk was too far in the other direction. It looks way out of place. I think a flowy, yet hand-built trail could have been built in the same location and would have still accommodated entry level riders. As it is, someone could ride Bobsled a few times and then think, "okay, I'm ready for the other trails here" - and they'd be in way over their heads on the next trail.

The first time I rode the Shore was close to 20 years ago, and I was with my friend who was an intermediate rider back in the states. We went straight to Flying Circus and that just completely demoralized him (I didn't ride it either ??). It was pissing rain, foggy, and slippery conditions. We moved over to Upper Oilcan and dropped in and it was the same - he was finished within the first hundred feet. I continued on and he backtracked to a "blue" trail to descend and he ended up walking most of that too, haha. We met up and rode Ladies and again, he was mentally destroyed by that one too. We ended the day and he was more tired than me, from pushing and carrying his bike, lol.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

A bit more curmudgeon ranting, maybe on yet another aspect of trail conditions...

Somebody added a new section of trail late last year where I ride. There is a wide swath through the woods where (I think) utility departments can check on stuff that runs through there. There are sewers and a couple of visible manholes along that swath.

I'm guessing because it's mostly flat and clear, somebody got the idea they could divert the trail away from where it had been for years and add a "jump line" in that cleared out swath. Basically, there was already a hump of Earth there as a natural feature, and then somebody got to digging a couple of holes to make a couple more mounds of dirt on which to catch some air.

I'm not upset with that or anything. New trails are fun. I have to wonder who had the idea though, because I'm not entitled enough to assume I can just change the course of the trail when I get an itch for it, but that's not really the issue. The issue is since that new section was put in the clearing, and there aren't any trees to shade out undergrowth, it didn't take long for this new section to get overgrown.

Naturally, like most people, whoever put in the new trails were excited about the new features, but they don't have any desire to maintain what they created. It seems people always want new trails, but nobody wants to take care of a trail.

I strapped a swing blade to my Camelbak and hit the woods this morning. I worked on several different areas of the trail where vegetation had covered it, but the main offender was that new jump line.

Here are some before and after pictures of just a portion of it taken at various stages of the work I was doing.

This is a big picture view of a stretch of it before:










And here is the same section after:










Here's somewhere in the middle of it taken with a closer view:










And here is a picture taken from the same place after:










So, have I douched up the trails even more now?

Right when I was getting back on my bike after I was done, a young couple came walking by on the trail. I have to wonder if they were new to the system, because before I cleared that spot, I don't think that young lady with her shorts barely covering her butt cheeks and her sleeveless shirt would have wanted to go walking through that shoulder high tangle of brush. Ticks and chiggers are horrible here.

And like I've said before, I wonder how long it would be before the trail was just unusable if I wasn't out there taking care of it? It might not be some world class all mountain run, but at least it's a trail system that can be used because somebody is making sure it can continue to be. If everything just got left once it became part of the trail, I don't think it would survive.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

Ah ha ha. I enjoyed the part of your curmudgeonly rant about miniscule clothing! Nice work. Unless you are sprinting in the Olympics, I don't need to see your a** cheeks or your dangling bits, guys/girls/other.

Just put on a t shirt and some regular shorts and get on with it. I hate seeing people run around in what is essentially underwear. Completely unnecessary attire for a non-brisk 12 minute jog...or to go hit the tennis ball into the net for 20 minutes, until you get bored and leave.


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## Wheelspeed (Jan 12, 2006)

Did anyone mention that, this curmudgeon, kind of wishes dropper posts were never invented, because in the old days, you needed some talent to hop trees and manual off steep downhill stuff while a saddle was up your ass. Now every yahoo just lowers their saddle and goes down steep stuff.

(I say "kind of wishes", because the dropper post is really freakin' awesome and I love it.)


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## Wheelspeed (Jan 12, 2006)

Did anyone mention that 29er wheels seem a bit bigger than necessary, and that 27.5 really could be the sweet spot for tight turns, and playful tail-kicks, and tree-hops, etc.?


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## Wheelspeed (Jan 12, 2006)

Did anyone mention that 35mm bars are freakin' stoopid and illogical? I never broke any 25.4mm bar, much less a 31.8. And the 25.4 stuff was definitely lighter than the bigger stuff. GTFO with those claims 35mm is ligher because you can make thinner walls. Take the stem into account along with the bar.


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## Wheelspeed (Jan 12, 2006)

Did anyone mention that the new geometry isn't "all that"? Yes, a raked out front end is typically more "confidence inspiring" for noobs, but it's not needed after you learned to ride. Just lean back. Leaning back lets the rear suspension work a little, getting hopefully closer to 50/50 weight distribution. Also, without killing all your front suspension travel on a steep downhill, leaning back squishes the rear a little and lets your front retain some angle. This is for FS bikes. For hardtails, just move up slightly as needed to put your front suspension to maximum use. 

As an old curmudgeon, when I go fast down hills on my modern bike, I feel the front wheel is too far out to weight properly. I want the back weighted and I want the rear suspension to work a little, but the front wheel is too far out and not getting traction. I move forward, and the back feels weird. They're just too far apart. 

And forget playful little doubles and stuff. Most local trail-builds for "jumping" etc have table-tops and doubles built way too close for a large, raked-out 29er. And I'm just on a 29er Giant Trance which isn't nearly as long as wheelbase as some bikes.

The raked out fork is just another industry adoption to make noobs feel "this bike is safe to go downhill"!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Well this thread sure has lived up to it's name.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

I had a Giant Boulder back in the mid-90s, my first mtb bike. Took a LONG time off from dirt, did tons of road and gravel riding. Now I picked up a very fancy (used) Devinci. The fat tires alone are a game-changer for me. The FS, the dropper, the geometry, the wee fork and wide bars...I have no clue how nice those are because I was off mtb bikes for so long.

It would be like going from driving a 1995 Civic to some fancy brand new modern car (which I can't name since I am completely clueless about cars...my machine lust is confined to bicycles!)


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Wheelspeed said:


> Now every yahoo just lowers their saddle and goes down steep stuff.


That's what we always did, they just moved the lever.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Wheelspeed said:


> Did anyone mention that, this curmudgeon, kind of wishes dropper posts were never invented, because in the old days, you needed some talent to hop trees and manual off steep downhill stuff while a saddle was up your ass. Now every yahoo just lowers their saddle and goes down steep stuff.


No, my saddle was always low. Riser posts just allow me to run it at roadie height when I sit down.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

Someone has probably mentioned this, but isn't a lot of the "overbiking" due to the bike industry and shops wanting to sell new, fancy, $$$ bikes? The average person walks into a shop, they're probably going to be pitched a bike that is far nicer than their skill level. I see plenty of people riding who'd be fine on a '95 Stumjumper with modern, wide tires...but they're on a 2020 Stumpjumper.

Happens across the board though, consumerism run wild. How many guys with jacked up, hauling-grade $75k trucks use them solely to roll around town? How many joggers are in $400 worth of gear to do intervals for 14 minutes?

It's the gear-ification of the sporting world/world...you gotta have all the darn gear and look the part before you even try out something new


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Had to double check that this wasn't the 50+ forum.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

nayr497 said:


> Someone has probably mentioned this, but isn't a lot of the "overbiking" due to the bike industry and shops wanting to sell new, fancy, $$$ bikes? The average person walks into a shop, they're probably going to be pitched a bike that is far nicer than their skill level. I see plenty of people riding who'd be fine on a '95 Stumjumper with modern, wide tires...but they're on a 2020 Stumpjumper.
> 
> Happens across the board though, consumerism run wild. How many guys with jacked up, hauling-grade $75k trucks use them solely to roll around town? How many joggers are in $400 worth of gear to do intervals for 14 minutes?
> 
> It's the gear-ification of the sporting world/world...you gotta have all the darn gear and look the part before you even try out something new


Yeah can't imagine why the shops aren't selling everyone '95 Stumpjumpers.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

My point was that a lot of people out mtb biking on new FS bikes would be fine on an older, or just simpler, bike. Doesn't have to come from a shop, could be sitting in a friend's garage, at the bike co-op, craigslist, etc.

You got ahead of yourself trying to make that joke.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

d365 said:


> Had to double check that this wasn't the 50+ forum.


Uh, the thread is about being a curmudgeon, a person who, by definition, is older. So...you never know.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

nayr497 said:


> My point was that a lot of people out mtb biking on new FS bikes would be fine on an older, or just simpler, bike. Doesn't have to come from a shop, could be sitting in a friend's garage, at the bike co-op, craigslist, etc.
> 
> You got ahead of yourself trying to make that joke.


It's not possible for everyone to ride old bikes. More riders now and bikes don't last forever. Also, mountain bike geo was terrible back then. I'm not talking trends either, I rode BMX in the 90's and knew mtb geo was dumb then. No reason to buy an old crappy bike is what it really comes down to.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't miss **** breaking like it used to.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

nayr497 said:


> My point was that a lot of people out mtb biking on new FS bikes would be fine on an older, or just simpler, bike.


If they would be fine on an old klunker couldn't they possibly be even finer on a new fs bike? Believe or not people come into shops wanting to look at nice bikes. Plenty of older non-curmudgeon's happily embrace the new tech.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> I don't miss **** breaking like it used to.


Meh. **** still breaks. With current trends, it won't be long until we can't ride our bike unless it's connected to WiFi - lol


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Eric F said:


> Meh. **** still breaks. With current trends, it won't be long until we can't ride our bike unless it's connected to WiFi - lol


Everything is a **** load more reliable than it used to be.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

I've said it plenty of times... I like my '09 bike more than my '18 bike.

Here's some more old man stuff that hasn't had too much time spent on it in this thread: What about all the morons walking the wrong direction (_with_ the flow of bike traffic) that can't see you coming from behind them and can't hear you because they have their damn earbuds in their ears?

When I walk through the woods I want to hear the woods. I can listen to music or whatever anywhere. I just want to slap these people and tell them to be in the moment.


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## 02Slayer (Mar 5, 2004)

Well, I'm convinced my approach has worked in terms of "official" trail making and maintenance. After spending a bit of time riding with our local new trail maker and showing him that there definitely is a portion of the population that looks forward to more technical sections of trail, he invited me to join him and his crew last week in the task of "reclaiming" an old abandoned trail on the grounds of our local Community College. He was able to get a bit of freedom to flag the revision trail as best he thought, and he was happy to show me a couple sections that he swung wide or pushed one side or another to have the trail pass closer to some decent sized glacial erratics, ie boulders. He asked me if I'd cut in the best lead in to the obstacles, while allowing for a basic pass-by for tose not looking for drops or rolls. I was grateful he included me in the project. I think he will reconsider just tearing stuff down. I know some of you will hate this, but the crew removed a bunch of large stones from an old stone wall. The good news is he told me I can build up the right side with all the cast off stones and create an up and over stone section for people that want to get up on a skinny rock wall ride. I think its a win-win. This is the second project at the College, and his goal is connect the one created in 2019 to the secton we cleared out. It will take a while but I'm glad the tech crowd is getting some love, being included, and its all legit with permits and permission.


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