# Best low cost welder



## cottonball (Sep 5, 2004)

I am thinking about trying to build my own frame. I welded years ago with but not for years. I want to look for a low cost welder and need advice on what to look for. Thanks for any help.


----------



## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Look for a good used TIG with foot pedal. Often you can find someone selling a DC only TIG like the Miller MaxStar line. If you are working with steel you don't need an AC/DC machine and as such you can save a little money. I got a used Miller MaxStar 150 STH, this is the least expensive Miller machine and works well.


----------



## cottonball (Sep 5, 2004)

*Welder*

As of right now I think I'd only be interested in a steel frame. I have a lot to think about before I would try doing a frame project. So DC for steel?


----------



## blackgt (May 27, 2010)

Depends on what your definition is for "low cost".

I bought the Miller Diversion 180 a couple years ago and have been very happy with it for steel welding. Its an AC/DC machine so it can weld aluminum as well. Comes with a foot pedal and thumb-troll torch. I added a gas lens and it welds a lot better than my skill allows!

Diversion

I occasionally see them for sale in the local classifieds for ~$1500, I got mine new for about $1800.

I also considered the Hobart Tig, which is the same machine as the Diversion, but different accessories and paint...and lower cost.

Jeremy


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*If you're short on cash..*

...just fillet braze. A set of O/A tanks/regulators/torch can be had for pretty darn cheap. TIG is a very expensive way to join tubes, and unless you are planning to build lots of bikes, it often doesn't make a lot of sense financially.

-Walt


----------



## cottonball (Sep 5, 2004)

*welder*

I'm not sure when I might try to build a frame but it is a hobby only. I checked prices of used tig welders on my local CL and they are more than I'd spend just to try out my hand at a frame. For the money I should just get a custom made frame. I don't have a need for spending a lot for something I won't use. I'm lucky to work with a lot of people who are part time mechanics so I might be able to get some help from them. The O\A tanks might be the way to go but I've haven't used them.I'll keep looking at ways to do this.


----------



## midamore (Jul 30, 2011)

What's it cost to get a frame painted after its built?


----------



## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

midamore said:


> What's it cost to get a frame painted after its built?


From 40 to 500+ dollars....Sorry, not being a turd, the range is really that much. 150 is a good estimate for a powder job, 250+ for a wet one.


----------



## midamore (Jul 30, 2011)

Thanks. I didn't realize there was such a range. I'll check out your website


----------



## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

Rustoleum is a good option for a 1st frame - cheap, easy to touch up, easy to remove and reapply if you do some mods to the frame. No need to spend a bunch on $ on a 1st frame.


----------



## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

Look for a used Miller Syncrowave. That machine is the workhorse of the tig welding world. They are easy to find, last forever and are dead built reliable. I wouldn't even waste time looking into a inverter machine like the dynasty/maxstar range.


----------



## sonic reducer (Apr 12, 2010)

fillet brazing isn't for everyone, but i will say that for those with minimal tools a little O/A rig is one of the best tools you can own. it has SO many uses. you can weld steel, aluminum, braze, cut, bend, heat stuck bolts, etc.

for a tig I would start watching craigslist tool section in your area and use tig in the search function. a friend of mine scored a near new Thermal Arc inverter machine ready to weld with a pedal, regulator and all for $500. the little inverter machines are a good way to go for a first tig because they are small, ease of storage/portable, usually capable of running off of 110v, etc.
I have also seen some good deals on older large tigs. lots of power and capability but heavy, physically large, and probably well used.
another thing thats very important when buying used is if the welder comes with a lot of the attachments such as pedal, torch, assortment of torch pieces, regulator, and other stuff. that stuff can nickel and dime the hell out of you.


----------



## cottonball (Sep 5, 2004)

*Thanks*

Thanks to everyone for answering the thread. Glad to get more answers. I need to start looking at what would be good for me.


----------



## Metalhack (Aug 13, 2011)

Walt said:


> ...just fillet braze. A set of O/A tanks/regulators/torch can be had for pretty darn cheap. TIG is a very expensive way to join tubes, and unless you are planning to build lots of bikes, it often doesn't make a lot of sense financially.
> 
> -Walt


This....


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

customfab said:


> Look for a used Miller Syncrowave. That machine is the workhorse of the tig welding world. They are easy to find, last forever and are dead built reliable. I wouldn't even waste time looking into a inverter machine like the dynasty/maxstar range.


You know, I've been using a Dynasty (borrowed and the guy is moving and taking it with him in a couple of weeks) for the past couple of years and love the machine.

This got me looking around though and I'm wondering if a Syncrowave wouldn't be a better machine for me. Comparing a new Dynasty 200DX and a new Syncrowave 250DX, I'd be out just about the same amount of cash.

One of the big benefits of the (current) Syncrowave is that there is some new on demand cooling majig on the cooler so the welder isn't making all kinds of racket unless the torch is hot. Both machines seem to have an on demand fan for the machine itself, but the on demand cooler for the Syncrowave sounds great to me. That's my biggest complaint with the Dynasty is just how loud the cooler is on it. I'm not sure if the pre/post flow is user configurable on the Dynasty either, but I know it is for the Syncrowave, so it's got that going for it too. Finally, the Dynasty would only do half of the thickness (not a problem for frame building but I may build something else) that the Syncrowave will do, all for the same cost again. That's sounding hard to beat. Of course, it's a physically larger unit but the shop footprint doesn't look all that much bigger than the Dynasty on the cart from what I can tell in the pictures.

From the pictures, it appears that the cooler plugs into a 110VAC port on the back of the Syncrowave, so no need to plug two power cords into the wall. Is that correct? Granted, it would be a 220 instead of 110 machine but I have plenty of 220 in my shop so that's not a problem. Having one less power cord to deal with sure would be nice though.

I suppose it isn't portable like the inverter machines, but that isn't a deal breaker for me either. I mean really, am I going to gather it all up and go weld at someone else's place? I don't think so really.


----------



## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

Syncowave has 50A and duty cycle advantage. Post flow is configurable on the dynasty. Pre is not (I just tap the pedal once before starting out of habit.) If you're not using the high speed pulsing, AC, or really thin matarials on the dynasty there shouldn't be much weld difference. You can weld any thickness w/ multiple passes. Not sure how they compute 25% more amps is 100% thicker material(?) - maybe stick mode? FWIW, the syncro takes a HEAVY ac service. Look at the running/welding amps between the two. The dynasty is pfc and the syncro isn't. In welding shops the energy savings alone can pay for a new dynasty (but obviously we aren't at that level.)

Interesting the syncro does on demand cooling now. Would be pretty easy to parallel a time-delay-off relay on the gas solenoid to get the same thing on any machine. Hmmmm, thats a good project idea...

FOR ME, the AC on the dynasty is so superior its a no brainer. I've played w/ the HF pulsing on DC but don't have it mastered yet but everything I read says its the way to go. My dad has an older syncro 350 and it wont do thin stuff even remotely as well as the dynasty 200 will (but not really an apples to apples comparison either.) We've done a side-by-side comparison of them.


----------



## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

jay_ntwr said:


> You know, I've been using a Dynasty (borrowed and the guy is moving and taking it with him in a couple of weeks) for the past couple of years and love the machine.
> 
> This got me looking around though and I'm wondering if a Syncrowave wouldn't be a better machine for me. Comparing a new Dynasty 200DX and a new Syncrowave 250DX, I'd be out just about the same amount of cash.
> 
> ...


I've been using one of those new torch cool on demand syncro's at a PT fab gig I picked up. At first I was kind of wigged out by it. But once I realized it was supposed to do that I thought it was kind of nice. (except the air compressor was next to the welder so it's all kind of moot)

I have a Dynasty 200 and although it's a great machine I would never have bought it if I hadn't gotten a solid deal on it. And yes the pre and post flow is settable on the deluxe version, along with a lot of other bells and whistles I don't even know about. Even in my cramped garage that is only a frame building shop for about 10 weeks a year I could find space for a syncro. I really don't think the small size of the Dynasty is that big of a deal. And I sure as hell don't think they weld DC any better than a syncro, if anything they are slightly worse.

The best DC welder I've used is the Lincoln precision tig 185. Best low amp arc stability and arc starting of any machine I've ever used. It's a pretty compact unit as well. Add a home grown cooler and it's a very capable machine for way more than bicycle frames. Plus they go for about ~$2k at your local weld supply store, which isn't chump change but it's better than a maxstar DC only machine any day.

My thoughts having burned through a few tons of filler, take them for what you will.


----------



## tamen00 (Mar 10, 2004)

customfab said:


> The best DC welder I've used is the Lincoln precision tig 185. Best low amp arc stability and arc starting of any machine I've ever used. It's a pretty compact unit as well. Add a home grown cooler and it's a very capable machine for way more than bicycle frames. Plus they go for about ~$2k at your local weld supply store, which isn't chump change but it's better than a maxstar DC only machine any day.


I have only ever used one machine - a precision Tig 225, so it is good to hear your thoughts on it. I have spent countless hours practicing with it and it works great - not sure what the difference would be if I had a different welder, but for a newbie I am getting pretty decent consistent DC welds. I picked up the machine with everything included (except a cooler) for $1200 off craigslist in pretty much brand new condition (I could not tell it had ever been used) and the lincolns seem to pop up on a pretty consistent basis.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

customfab said:


> I've been using one of those new torch cool on demand syncro's at a PT fab gig I picked up. At first I was kind of wigged out by it. But once I realized it was supposed to do that I thought it was kind of nice.


How quiet is it compared to the Dynasty? I know that the Dynasty when not running is nearly silent. During welding, of course the fan kicks on and it gets loud with the aircooled torch. The cooling unit on it sounds like it's broken though--that's one loud cooler for such a small welder. Is that sort of the same thing with the Syncrowave and cool on demand unit? Or, to ask what I'm really interested in I suppose.... If the cooler cycles off, how loud is the welder if I'm just tacking up a frame? BTW, I'm putting my compressor outside this time. It's on my list to do in the new shop as soon as I do all the airlines.

I'm still leaning toward that I think. One of the main reasons is that they never seem to lose value. I'm finding a ton of them on Craigslist (that are way old) and they're all $3-4k on the used market. That's not bad when you consider that they would have cost that new but now the things are $5k today. I figure drop $5k today and I've got a welder for life. And if during that life I don't need it at some point, it's $5k I can get back when they cost $8k.

I'm in this for the long haul and I'm just probably going to get a shiny new machine... Now this Lincoln is looking pretty sweet for half the price too....


----------



## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

jay_ntwr said:


> How quiet is it compared to the Dynasty? I know that the Dynasty when not running is nearly silent. During welding, of course the fan kicks on and it gets loud with the aircooled torch. The cooling unit on it sounds like it's broken though--that's one loud cooler for such a small welder. Is that sort of the same thing with the Syncrowave and cool on demand unit? Or, to ask what I'm really interested in I suppose.... If the cooler cycles off, how loud is the welder if I'm just tacking up a frame? BTW, I'm putting my compressor outside this time. It's on my list to do in the new shop as soon as I do all the airlines.


Turn the radio up and get your ass to work!


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

customfab said:


> Turn the radio up and get your ass to work!


That's exactly why I'm concerned actually.... The tunes get drowned out by that stupid cooler and it makes me nuts. I just turn the cooler off and hope that I remember to turn it back on before I strike an arc. I like hearing the music between arcs and don't want to fiddle with turning things on and off.


----------



## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

jay_ntwr said:


> That's exactly why I'm concerned actually.... The tunes get drowned out by that stupid cooler and it makes me nuts. I just turn the cooler off and hope that I remember to turn it back on before I strike an arc. I like hearing the music between arcs and don't want to fiddle with turning things on and off.


I run a home brewed fan less cooler on the dynasty. Having a 5 gallon cooler has been more than sufficient in cooling the 200 amps I have on tap. Even when doing multi passes on heavy steel the cooling capacity hasn't fallen short of the duty cycle on the power source. My plan B was to use a junk yard radiator as a resivor. Something out of a full sized truck would have netted more water capacity and a massive improvement in cooling capacity over the 6 gallon plastic bucket I use now.

Or you could turn your radio up a little


----------



## cottonball (Sep 5, 2004)

When I'm looking a welder, what thickness of steel should I be thinking about building. To start out I might try a heavy steel and then if I really want to keep going it might be a lighter steel frame. Also thinking about Alu.


----------



## CBookman (Sep 9, 2008)

cottonball said:


> When I'm looking a welder, what thickness of steel should I be thinking about building. To start out I might try a heavy steel and then if I really want to keep going it might be a lighter steel frame. Also thinking about Alu.


I would get a welder that can go down to .020 if possible.


----------



## cottonball (Sep 5, 2004)

*Is a Mig ok?*

A friend at work bought a small mig welder and really likes it. Is mig welding a good start for steel frames? Please remember that this is a project and only as a hobbie.


----------



## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

cottonball said:


> A friend at work bought a small mig welder and really likes it. Is mig welding a good start for steel frames? Please remember that this is a project and only as a hobbie.


MIG frames are likely okay if you use heavy gauge mild steel tubing. May walmart bikes seem to be MIG welded. On the other hand, using MIG on thin wall 4130 or similar high end lightweight tubesets may not be safe.


----------



## NSCustoms (Dec 7, 2011)

*Everlast PowerTig 250 EX*

Im probably going to get blasted for suggesting an overseas made welder but if you are buying a new inverter type tig machine you can't beat the features and performance for the price. I don't like the bulky European style torch it comes with but that can be changed. Also, a quick note. In my opinion, using a water cooled torch while welding thin wall 4130 is unneccesary. Save you money and buy a bunch of .035 straight gauge to refine your skillset.


----------



## CBookman (Sep 9, 2008)

cottonball said:


> A friend at work bought a small mig welder and really likes it. Is mig welding a good start for steel frames? Please remember that this is a project and only as a hobbie.


I would probably consider a brazing rig like sonic reducer says and forget the MIG welder. It seems as if you're trying to get the most bang for your buck. If you're only looking to test your ability to do this, I would get the O/A setup and run with it. A welder is a serious investment IMO. You said yourself you aren't that serious about it...


----------



## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

NSCustoms said:


> Im probably going to get blasted for suggesting an overseas made welder but if you are buying a new inverter type tig machine you can't beat the features and performance for the price. I don't like the bulky European style torch it comes with but that can be changed. Also, a quick note. In my opinion, using a water cooled torch while welding thin wall 4130 is unneccesary. Save you money and buy a bunch of .035 straight gauge to refine your skillset.


When did the frame building world get hung up on inverter machines? I've got one and I really don't think they are anything special. I'd much rather have a Lincoln or Miller capacitor machine than an Asian built inverter.


----------



## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

customfab said:


> When did the frame building world get hung up on inverter machines? I've got one and I really don't think they are anything special. I'd much rather have a Lincoln or Miller capacitor machine than an Asian built inverter.


Inverters are smaller, so I suppose size and portability are important to some people. You don't have to buy Asian crap. There's plenty of other foreign machines from Germany and Italy that are just as bad, if not moreso.


----------



## NSCustoms (Dec 7, 2011)

I think we would all prefer a capacitor type, they last forever and they are inexpensively servicable. If you can find one used that is in you price range then that is def. the way to go.


----------



## cottonball (Sep 5, 2004)

*cheap mig*

There is a mig welder on Craigslist, smaller one for $450. Cam a mig weld steel tubes or is it not good for thin steel tubing. I am in the dark about which welders can do what.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

cottonball said:


> There is a mig welder on Craigslist, smaller one for $450. Cam a mig weld steel tubes or is it not good for thin steel tubing. I am in the dark about which welders can do what.


Yes;

You can MIG weld SOME thin wall steel tubing, but it can be very difficult to control the heat well enough not to burn it up. You and your machine must be working at peak efficiency to do it well. Although it can be done, it will never look very good. You CANNOT MIG CroMo. Smaller MIG welders tend to be... um... _difficult _to use.


----------



## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

cottonball said:


> There is a mig welder on Craigslist, smaller one for $450. Cam a mig weld steel tubes or is it not good for thin steel tubing. I am in the dark about which welders can do what.


MIG is not recommended for thin wall tubing and is not recommended for the higher strength alloys like 4130 and other steels used for high performance bicycles.

If your main goal is building just one or two bikes fillet brazing is probably the best way to proceed.

The other approch is to use TIG. Start with Tig only if you see building bikes as something you want to commit a lot of resources to. TIG takes a lot of time and effort to learn plus it is expensive and complex. It is very rewarding as well but be prepard for lots of frustration along the way.


----------



## BungedUP (Aug 18, 2003)

NSCustoms said:


> I think we would all prefer a capacitor type, they last forever and they are inexpensively servicable. If you can find one used that is in you price range then that is def. the way to go.


Do you mean transformer type? A Syncrowave or PrecisionTIG uses a large transformer to change incoming AC to high current/low voltage, then rectifies that cycle to DC. That method is inefficient electrically, and current control is really rather crude in some instances - though modern mid level machines have come a long way.

In an inverter welder, the current is first rectified to DC, then transformed to the needed voltage at unbelievable frequencies - 40,000 - 100,000 khz using IGBTs. The efficiency of this system is far better than the inherently leaky "transformer" based welders, and gives a lot of stability to the current. If you look at the numbers for a comparable Syncrowave - they operate down to 5 amps (Sync 200) or 3 amps (Sync 250DX). A Dynasty 200 DC operates at 1 amp - comparable to the Aerowave. A PrecicionTIG225 goes to 5 amps. PrecisionTIG 275 goes to 2 amps - still not Dynasty territory.

Among others, I've used a PrecisionTIG 275, and it's a good machine - no doubt about it. Is it better or more stable than a properly grounded and set up Dynasty? Nope - at least not discernable by standard human senses. They both are really good when set up properly. One difference IS the sound - in a quiet environment, you can hear the IGBTs in the inverter machine, and so one gets the feeling that something is processing the current, and therefore something isn't quite right with the welder. With a transformer machine, you don't hear that, and I think that may make some people feel that is somehow more stable. I personally have never seen that it is. Maybe under some circumstance it's the case, but I've never seen it, nor heard anyone give a good explanation of what that is.

When it comes to AC control, it is no contest - hands down winner is the inverter machine. The only possible contender would be the Aerowave, and that was a hybrid machine, so in most respects it was an inverter based machine in AC mode anyway. The only area the Aerowave can't compete is with the new Dynasty machines that have AC waveshape control. On the flip side, its a 375 amp machine that runs down to 1 amp. Ohhhhhhhhhh..........

Edit: These are not normally low cost machines however.


----------



## axelbaker (Jun 17, 2011)

NSCustoms said:


> Im probably going to get blasted for suggesting an overseas made welder but if you are buying a new inverter type tig machine you can't beat the features and performance for the price. I don't like the bulky European style torch it comes with but that can be changed. Also, a quick note. In my opinion, using a water cooled torch while welding thin wall 4130 is unneccesary. Save you money and buy a bunch of .035 straight gauge to refine your skillset.


I will second NS's comment. I used one the other day for a small job and honestly liked it as much as the Syncrowave 250 at work. I also second the comment that the torch and pedal sucked. All the connectors were normal DIN connectors so if I was buying one I would get a nice weldcraft torch and nicer pedal. But for $700 it was a fantastic machine and would serve any aspiring welder for years. :thumbsup:


----------

