# 2016 fox 36 - harsh!



## -C- (Oct 26, 2006)

Hoping I can get some pointers here for some issues with my fork.

I had an early 2015 36, than Fox actually ended up replacing under warranty for a 2016 model for me (stanchion wear and cartridge issue).

I've been riding it for about 3 months now & it's always been on the harsher side of damping for me. So much so I got the Fox guys to look at it (and subsequently do a full service) at the Whistler EWS. Initially it felt a little more supple on the top stroke, but by no means could it have been called buttery.

A few weeks ago I had a bit of a crash, and aggravated an old hand injury, and have since got back out onto the bike, and am suffering with the fork. 

Short point is, I'm a reasonably fast rider, won and podiumed a few DH and enduro races over the years and when I'm charging, the fork feels 'OK' at best - problem is when I'm not, it feels brutally harsh. I've gone so far as to wind off all the compression, and drop air, yet this thing is killing me.

By chance, I hopped on my buddies Nomad with a BOS Deville on the front, he's a good 30lbs heavier than me, and his bike is set up for him, yet his fork literally felt like butter compared to mine, almost instant relief when riding. Amusingly, first thing he says about mine? Man, that fork is hard!

So, anything I can do? Part of me thinks suck it up and get a Deville, I've ridden one before and know they do have that amazingly supple initial stroke feel, or send the 36 off again? I'm going to be rehabbing my hand for at least 6 months, and am not sure I can literally take the pain for that long.

Could I have damaged the cartridge? The LSC has a small effect from open to closed, the HSC not so much at all. The range of adjustment does seem tight on this fork. 

Any ideas?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

I would not get a Bos -everyone is complaining about the complete lack of service. I would stay way clear of those guys. 

If you want another fork, look into the offerings from Manitou, Rock Shock, DVO and MRP, who are all making good forks. 

IF you keep the Fox, you could get the fork Pushed for $250, which should give you the ride you want.


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## -C- (Oct 26, 2006)

The BOS side of things I'm not too concerned about, as there are a number of tuners in the UK who can work on them, servicing is easy for a home user, and stuff like bushing replacement etc can all be done away from BOS.

It potentially is only an issue with creaking crowns etc, but I would pick up something second hand anyway, so using the bathtub failure curve model, that shouldn't be something I would have an issue with.

RS I haven't been impressed with, 2 Pikes, both went with creaking crowns & a blown Charger cartridge, I genuinely didn't get the hype with them. Way too much plastic inside for my liking.

The other 3, I'm not sure they are going to give me what I want, that first 1-2" of travel for me moving forward with this injury, I'm going to need to feel like a Marzocchi of old, super supple - but then some nice midstroke support and a good ramp up.

I even started considering a 350 NCR ti for that reason!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

-C- said:


> The BOS side of things I'm not too concerned about, as there are a number of tuners in the UK who can work on them, servicing is easy for a home user, and stuff like bushing replacement etc can all be done away from BOS.
> 
> It potentially is only an issue with creaking crowns etc, but I would pick up something second hand anyway, so using the bathtub failure curve model, that shouldn't be something I would have an issue with.
> 
> ...


Ah, the Marzocchi of old. Are we talking Z-1? 

If you can deal with the BOS and like the ride, I would go with that.

Personally, I love my Manitou Mattoc an incredibly smooth and plush fork that is amazing on the big and small stuff. Also, an amazing climbing fork as well.

People have also commented that the DVO is really nice. The DVO is lead by the old Marzocchi USA folks, so you may like their idea of suspension!

I have ridden a 2015 Fox 36 and also found it harsh. OK in the bigger stuff but way too progressive and not very plush or fun.


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## Jaxxx (Jun 16, 2014)

After paying $1000 for a fork it should ride like butter, sucks you have to pay another $250 to get it to ride good.


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## -C- (Oct 26, 2006)

Ive read a few hit & miss reviews of the DVO, and still being a new product, I'm not 100% keen on being a beta tester on it. Also I have a slightly more personal dislike for the UK distributor, so would rather they never got a penny of my money...

The Manitou in the UK is a rare beast, I don't think I've ever seen one on the trail, I might investigate it further though.

BOS seems to be the logical choice - it's not without its faults though, they literally have zero tyre clearance, as they use the same lowers as the 26" fork, which is a bit of an issue in our somewhat wet climate, it's enough to make me question the choice.

What I really want, is the 36 to feel a bit more supple. Other this, it's pretty much ideal.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

Do you have the LSC and HSC set right?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

-C- said:


> What I really want, is the 36 to feel a bit more supple. Other this, it's pretty much ideal.


Originally you said this "it feels brutally harsh".

I would really say that try to get a fresh tune from Fox or get it Pushed (TF Tuned). I think that is your best option.


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## Idaho (Sep 29, 2013)

Sucks you are unhappy with your DVO distributor there. I have had nothing but good experiences with mine from XC to riding lift-service DH runs. With the Diamond, if you were to consider it, the OTT settings can really make that initial part of the travel very soft.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Jaxxx said:


> After paying $1000 for a fork it should ride like butter, sucks you have to pay another $250 to get it to ride good.


Well yes but you buy a Fox because it can be modified. I think the only reason I got a Fox shock is because it can be Pushed. You also buy a Fox because all the cool kids have them.


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## hardboiled (Jun 10, 2006)

before you throw alot of money at the problem I would service the fork yourself. race tech support is great, but I'm sure the Fox tent at an EWS was super busy and prioritizing Fox athletes, so unless you watched exactly what they did, it may have been a rushed/superficial lower bath oil service only. I and several others have had issues with the air spring needing maintenance, that's the first place I would look, and while you have the lowers off you should cycle the damper and make sure there is no air in the cartridge. 

most folks are pretty happy the new 36s so if yours feels way "off" and you are competent at basic sag/compression/rebound tuning, there's probably more going on than just a setup issue. if it feels pretty close and you're just trying to dial in the setup, try adding a token and reducing PSI to get a softer feel in the initial stroke while maintaining mid- and end-stroke control.


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## -C- (Oct 26, 2006)

Can you elaborate a bit more on the air spring side of things? What sort issues needed addressing?

Ref the service, I hung around as they spent quite a bit of time trying to help with setup etc after, yep they had the thing fully apart, so can only assume the service was good.

I've just dropped another volume spacer in and reduced the air pressure again, to see how it feels today. Using an RS pump I'm now low 60's in PSI, which at ~175lbs is pretty low for 20% sag. I'll see how it feel though & if it starts bottoming out everywhere.


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## hardboiled (Jun 10, 2006)

mine started feeling really sticky so I assumed it was due for a lower/bath oil service. when I put it back together, the air spring became the obvious culprit -- it was rock hard at my normal psi. burped the lowers in case I had gotten air trapped down there when I reassembled, but that didn't totally resolve the issue either. took it on a couple rides and it was feeling ok at speed at this point and getting more or less normal amount of travel on my usual test trails, but still not feeling like my Pike and not like I remembered the 36 feeling out of the box. so I did a full service on the air spring and it turned out there was some kind of vacuum/air trapped under/around the main piston. it wasn't released until I had the lowers off, top cap/air transfer rod out, and then manually extended the air shaft all the way to the bottom of the uppers (in advance of removing the air spring from the uppers) that the vacuum was released. removed the air spring to check for any damaged seals/o-rings, looked good so I put it back together and all is good now -- drastic improvement.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

I think this is just the fork. At warp speed it's superb, at anything less it's not that amazing. I'm tempted to try either a avy cart in it or a Lyrik, I'm not a RS fan but I don't fancy BOS or DVO. I wish I could find the feel others have but I've tried everything and it's not happening for me. I'm trying starting over from the very start.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I have a 2016 Fox 36 with the FIT4 and have had a similar experience. I'd suggest dropping the pressure further. I also weigh 175lbs and I'm currently running mine at 55psi and planning to drop it to 50psi for more testing (that seems to be the minimum recommended). My rebound is set to the minimum. I ride an E29....i suspect a big part of the pressure equation is how much of the rider's weight is over the fork.

I've wondered if there's something wrong with mine, but honestly at 55psi it feels pretty good and i'm hitting the 20% sag mark and using most of the travel, so who knows.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

They're going to fix all the issues for 2017!


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

One Pivot said:


> They're going to fix all the issues for 2017!


No no, they're going to make *changes* for 2017 and everyone on the forums will talk about how much better they are. They'll still be the same **** quality though.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Porch said:


> I've wondered if there's something wrong with mine, but honestly at 55psi it feels pretty good and i'm hitting the 20% sag mark and using most of the travel, so who knows.


Actually, that sounds pretty good. Feels pretty good and uses most of its travel. That is what a dialed fork should do!:thumbsup:


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Porch said:


> No no, they're going to make *changes* for 2017 and everyone on the forums will talk about how much better they are. They'll still be the same **** quality though.


I meant 2018. They'll be fixed by 2018 

Before condemning it completely, Id drain the lower leg oil and measure it. If its over spec, refill and ride for a few weeks, then drain and remeasure. If its over spec again, you've got a damper leak into the lowers which will cause harshness.

If its in spec, well... its a fox. Id jump ship.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Ahhh man, I have to stick my foot in my mouth here a little bit.

Last night on a ride i decided to try the "zip tie trick" on a whim. My sag doubled and small bump compliance got 1000% better. I had to bump the fork back up to 70psi to get the sag correct. 

OP, give that a try. Clean off the seals and stick the zip tie between the seal and the stanchion. Mine feels awesome now.


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

Porch said:


> Clean off the seals and stick the zip tie between the seal and the stanchion. Mine feels awesome now.


Do you do that on both legs? Damper leg only? (Air) Spring leg only?

Thanks
Oren

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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

Porch said:


> Ahhh man, I have to stick my foot in my mouth here a little bit.
> 
> Last night on a ride i decided to try the "zip tie trick" on a whim. My sag doubled and small bump compliance got 1000% better. I had to bump the fork back up to 70psi to get the sag correct.
> 
> OP, give that a try. Clean off the seals and stick the zip tie between the seal and the stanchion. Mine feels awesome now.


I remember reading about this "fix". Is it only required on the left side where the air spring is located? How far down do you need to get the zip tie down before the air is released?

Cheers
J


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Between binding legs and trapped air, I'm not surprised. Those two things have been "features" on mtb forks for years and years. The motorcycle industry has employed solutions for both for years and years as well........


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Do it on both legs. I pushed the zip tie down as far as it would go, which wasn't very far on the Fox 36, maybe 1/2". Make sure everything is clean so you don't push dirt down inside!

I talked to the owner of my LBS about it today and he showed me that his Fox 40's actually have a valve on them (on both legs) to do the same thing.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

I have let the air out while pulling the fork up and down creating a vacuum effect - I can't raise the fork with the valve closed. Then air it up and tune. I never totally depend on sag or recommended pressure..


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## -C- (Oct 26, 2006)

Just as a little update, I rode all day with the setup I mentioned above, and the fork was a lot better. It's certainly not 'butter' and it rides deeper in its travel most of the time, but I only bottomed it out once (for those who know, the rock roll/chute) on the start of the second part of In Deep @ Whistler.

I'm conscious of it riding deeper in its travel though, maybe it's just because I'm not used to it.

Seems odd though, setting sag I can almost have a variance of 10-15psi and the smallest position change on the bike can see me hovering around the 20% point. 

I'll keep playing with it for now.


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## livewr06 (Nov 7, 2013)

What is this 'zip tie' trick? I remember hearing about it sometime ago. I'm still tuning my 2016 36 and feel the ride should be softer. I weigh 140 geared up and wondered about whether removing a volume spacer would help use the full travel of the fork.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

I'm in the same boat. My 16 36 feels super harsh. With proper sag I've even tried high speed compression all the way out and it still feels horrible. im going to drop the pressure a bit and try it but so far pretty disappointed with the ride quality. Kind of glad to hear I'm not the only one having issues. I think tomorrow I'll pull it apart and check oils levels and see if I can find anything wrong.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

livewr06 said:


> What is this 'zip tie' trick? I remember hearing about it sometime ago. I'm still tuning my 2016 36 and feel the ride should be softer. I weigh 140 geared up and wondered about whether removing a volume spacer would help use the full travel of the fork.


It is used when you have air trapped in your lowers. This can come from air escaping from the main air leg to the lowers or from other reasons. To remove the air, you can "vent" the lowers by slipping a zip tie between the seal and the stanchion. This will work on a Rock Shock and Fox but not on forks such as the Manitou Mattoc which have an oil seal. Also, if you use an enduro fork seal, they use an oil seal as well and won't allow you to vent the lowers using this trick.


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## mtnbiker831 (Sep 19, 2011)

This is very odd, I have had many forks in the past and the 2016 36 rc2 is the best single crown fork I have ever ridden. Not only does it feel great, traction is noticeably better than the pike rct3 that I came from, and now that I rode one for a bit, the pike on my trail bike felt like an un-dampened pogo stick in comparison. Ended up selling the pike on that bike too and got a new 34 that is almost equally as impressive as the 2016 36.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

mtnbiker831 said:


> This is very odd, I have had many forks in the past and the 2016 36 rc2 is the best single crown fork I have ever ridden. Not only does it feel great, traction is noticeably better than the pike rct3 that I came from, and now that I rode one for a bit, the pike on my trail bike felt like an un-dampened pogo stick in comparison. Ended up selling the pike on that bike too and got a new 34 that is almost equally as impressive as the 2016 36.


That's exactly what I would have expected from the fork. I've had plenty of 36's in the past. I have a 40 float on the big bike and I've had a bunch of other forks. This is one of the worst. It feels like there's too much hsc even if I open it all the way up. It's hard to believe that a fork that feels so frictionless in the parking lot can be so harsh in the woods. I opened it up today just to make sure it had oil and eveything in the lowers and air spring seemed to be in order. Rode it again with 5 less psi today and it used more travel but didn't really ride any better. It makes me wonder if they put the wrong shims in or something. I may just send it to push to get it sorted out.


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## mtnbiker831 (Sep 19, 2011)

jimarin said:


> That's exactly what I would have expected from the fork. I've had plenty of 36's in the past. I have a 40 float on the big bike and I've had a bunch of other forks. This is one of the worst. It feels like there's too much hsc even if I open it all the way up. It's hard to believe that a fork that feels so frictionless in the parking lot can be so harsh in the woods. I opened it up today just to make sure it had oil and eveything in the lowers and air spring seemed to be in order. Rode it again with 5 less psi today and it used more travel but didn't really ride any better. It makes me wonder if they put the wrong shims in or something. I may just send it to push to get it sorted out.


Are you positive that you have a 2016 fork? I know that the earlier production 2015 36 had this issue by description...maybe it is a 2015?

For reference, I weigh 195 with gear and run:
70psi
2 orange av spacers
6 from closed rebound
Hsc and lsc 15 clicks from closed


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## lefty1983 (Nov 13, 2010)

-C- said:


> Can you elaborate a bit more on the air spring side of things? What sort issues needed addressing?


I don't know if you've had a look at my thread in here regarding my TALAS 5 cartridge sticking. There was enough stiction in the TALAS assembly to prevent it from returning to full travel and it made the first part of the travel a little sticky (which prior to replacing the seals I put it down to lower legs needing serviced). 2 seals replaced as per the guide on ridefox.com TALAS 5 air seal replacement and the stiction has gone completely. I've not ridden them yet but they feel way better in the car park test so far!

Not sure if this is anything to do with the issue you describe however it's not somewhere I would have thought to check as part of my routine maintenance. Going by the difference it made and how relatively simple it is to do I think I'll add it to my regular lower leg service in future.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

mtnbiker831 said:


> Are you positive that you have a 2016 fork? I know that the earlier production 2015 36 had this issue by description...maybe it is a 2015?
> 
> For reference, I weigh 195 with gear and run:
> 70psi
> ...


It is without a doubt a 2016. I'm 210 and my last ride I ran 80psi with 2 blue av spacers and similar compression settings to you. I've tried a pretty wide range of compression and rebound settings.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

jimarin said:


> That's exactly what I would have expected from the fork. I've had plenty of 36's in the past. I have a 40 float on the big bike and I've had a bunch of other forks. This is one of the worst. It feels like there's too much hsc even if I open it all the way up. It's hard to believe that a fork that feels so frictionless in the parking lot can be so harsh in the woods. I opened it up today just to make sure it had oil and eveything in the lowers and air spring seemed to be in order. Rode it again with 5 less psi today and it used more travel but didn't really ride any better. It makes me wonder if they put the wrong shims in or something. I may just send it to push to get it sorted out.


Push it. What is the difference between a $1000 fork and a $1250 fork anyway!


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

Vespasianus said:


> Push it. What is the difference between a $1000 fork and a $1250 fork anyway!


Haha that's what I was thinking too, especially after nutting up for an elevensix. I got the 36 for $820 so even with push it will put me close to retail cost.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Could sell it and buy a buttery mattoc! Im seeing them under $600 brand new online.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

-C- said:


> Just as a little update, I rode all day with the setup I mentioned above, and the fork was a lot better. It's certainly not 'butter' and it rides deeper in its travel most of the time, but I only bottomed it out once (for those who know, the rock roll/chute) on the start of the second part of In Deep @ Whistler.
> 
> I'm conscious of it riding deeper in its travel though, maybe it's just because I'm not used to it.
> 
> ...


I didn't see you mention it...did you try sticking a zip tie in between the fork stanchion and the outer seal?


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## Jaxxx (Jun 16, 2014)

One Pivot said:


> Could sell it and buy a buttery mattoc! Im seeing them under $600 brand new online.[/QUOT
> 
> really? I have to look into this


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> Could sell it and buy a buttery mattoc! Im seeing them under $600 brand new online.


I haven't seen a Mattoc pro under $800 yet, where?


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## Jaxxx (Jun 16, 2014)

How does the matrix compare to the fox 36 or pike?


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## elsinore (Jun 10, 2005)

Have you checked the damper out? A lot of these forks come with overfilled dampers. Pull out the damper, if the bladder isn't sucked in a touch at full extension then you have too much fluid in there. This was the case with my 36. I burped some oil out and it was much more supple on the beginning part of the stroke. This is a pretty common issue.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

fsrxc said:


> I haven't seen a Mattoc pro under $800 yet, where?


27.5:

Manitou Mattoc PRO 160mm Tapered 27.5 matt black | 27,5" Suspension fork All Mountain / Enduro (140-160mm) Shop

or 26"

Manitou Mattoc 26" PRO 160mm Tapered QR15 matte-black | Manitou Shop

In addition, if you have any old Manitou fork, you can trade it in for 40% off a new Manitou (makes is similar in price ~$500). Do to this, you need to have your LBS call Manitou directly (not QBP) and get it arranged.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> 27.5:
> 
> Manitou Mattoc PRO 160mm Tapered 27.5 matt black | 27,5" Suspension fork All Mountain / Enduro (140-160mm) Shop
> 
> ...


Dang, the 27.5 is out of stock.
Thanks for reminding me about the trade-in plan, I happen to have an '05 Minute IT in my basement. Cdn LBS prices are silly, but it can't hurt to ask...


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

jimarin said:


> That's exactly what I would have expected from the fork. I've had plenty of 36's in the past. I have a 40 float on the big bike and I've had a bunch of other forks. This is one of the worst. It feels like there's too much hsc even if I open it all the way up. It's hard to believe that a fork that feels so frictionless in the parking lot can be so harsh in the woods. I opened it up today just to make sure it had oil and eveything in the lowers and air spring seemed to be in order. Rode it again with 5 less psi today and it used more travel but didn't really ride any better. It makes me wonder if they put the wrong shims in or something. I may just send it to push to get it sorted out.


Don't suppose it's an OEM spec fork. I've had some rubbish OEM spec tune fox forks before.Maybe all the OEM designers are 200lb + and like their forks to pump up their arms? I personally like the Giant tune. Fox has at least two[maybe three] optional shim stacks for the aftermarket forks these days. Give them a ring.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

elsinore said:


> Have you checked the damper out? A lot of these forks come with overfilled dampers. Pull out the damper, if the bladder isn't sucked in a touch at full extension then you have too much fluid in there. This was the case with my 36. I burped some oil out and it was much more supple on the beginning part of the stroke. This is a pretty common issue.


Thanks for the tip. All I did was cycle the damper making sure it didn't have air in it. I didn't remove it from the stanchion. I'll give that a shot.


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## TahoeBC (Apr 11, 2006)

Man my 2016 36 was really feeling like crap last weekend, really harsh, I have the 36 with the FIT4 damper. On Monday I did an oil service and slick honeyed the wiper seals. Rides better than brand new, so plush during last nights ride.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

It's getting better. I took the bladder out and it wasn't overfilled but the last couple rides it's been improving. Maybe it just needed a little break in time.


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## -C- (Oct 26, 2006)

Coming back to this again, as there is clearly something wrong with my fork.

It's developed a nasty clunk, it's not a top out issue, but when the wheel is off the ground & has a sharp, quick impact - it's a loud audible knock that I can feel through the bars too, coupled with a nasty, spikey rebound.

Any ideas? I expect it's going back to fox, again.


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## -C- (Oct 26, 2006)

For the sake of closure on this thread, my fork went back to Fox, and they did some more warranty work on it.

Ended up with another new RC2 cartridge, and a full service. I rode the fork once when it came back - and decided there & then to sell it. I was fed up with forever chasing a balanced set up. I still maintain that for a pure 'race' fork it was great, but I race maybe once a month, and for all other rides, it just rode too harsh, unless I was riding super aggressive. 

2 rebuilds in a short space of time didn't really inspire confidence in the longevity of the fork for me either. I can only assume due to my previously mentioned hand issues i'm more sensitive to setup than most, but I never got that 'butter' feel that some seem to have without running the fork way too soft. The Pike & Lyrik are both better in that respect, but none can match the BOS from what I have used.

Anyway, it went and I replaced it with a new Lyrik. Which basically felt like a slightly stiffer, and more supple Pike. 2 volume spacers in air side, pump it up to ~20% sag, set rebound, few clicks of LSC & first run on the first ride it was better than the 36.

My hands are thanking me.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

-C- said:


> Anyway, it went and I replaced it with a new Lyrik. Which basically felt like a slightly stiffer, and more supple Pike. 2 volume spacers in air side, pump it up to ~20% sag, set rebound, few clicks of LSC & first run on the first ride it was better than the 36.
> 
> My hands are thanking me.


I have just taken delivery of the new Lyrik in 170mm Solo air guise. Not got any ride time on it yet but I have to say initially I am very pleased. It has zero stiction off the top where as the 2016 36 always had to have a little push to break that after it had been sat. I got these out of the box after they had been sat since been assembled and there was no stickiness at all.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

Nice, a lyric may be in my future too. I can say I'm still not satisfied with my 36. Once you guys get some more time on them let us know what you think.


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## zhendo (Aug 31, 2011)

Rick Draper said:


> I got these out of the box after they had been sat since been assembled and there was no stickiness at all.


This is because of how the fork was stored. Fork boxes allow the fork to be stored horizontally, which means bath oil is in contact with the dust/oil seals. Your Lyrik will have the same dryness at first cycle after being mounted on the bike and sitting for a while.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

zhendo said:


> This is because of how the fork was stored. Fork boxes allow the fork to be stored horizontally, which means bath oil is in contact with the dust/oil seals. Your Lyrik will have the same dryness at first cycle after being mounted on the bike and sitting for a while.


My 36 is stored horizontally too. Ps it's the air spring that causes the stiction.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

Rick Draper said:


> My 36 is stored horizontally too. Ps it's the air spring that causes the stiction.


I agree the spring is the culprit. It just takes way too much force to get it to move from sag. Medium and big hits are fine. at this point I'm I've tried every adjustment and reasonable air pressure with no improvement. I give up on it. Back to the pike for me for now. Glad I held off on selling it.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

After a prolonged climb, I looked forward to the descent. My fork felt like a POS. It's the newer of the two 36s I have. I don't know why the performance fell off. 


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

DrDon said:


> After a prolonged climb, I looked forward to the descent. My fork felt like a POS. It's the newer of the two 36s I have. I don't know why the performance fell off.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Pressure in the lowers? Have you read the first page of this thread?


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## Zatoichi (Oct 25, 2014)

*Fox E16 Tune*

Those with a FIT 4 damper may be interested in this new shim stack tune from Fox. They're using a different kind of shim.

I wonder if these shims will make it into future RC2 tunes...



> "It was a question," says Jordan, "of how we could get a little more sensitivity off the top of the stroke without sacrificing the support. "
> 
> "Feeling those new shims in your hand is the best way to get a sense of what's going on here," explains Angeley. "The center portion is still stiff and strong, but the edges want to curve out and flex under pressure, which is what allows for oil flow and that supple feeling when your tire is hitting the small rocks and roots. The oil hits the shim, it can't go through the center, so it flows to the edge which bends so the oil can pass through, which gives the fork that great sense of support with just the right amount of suppleness."


Here's the full article on Bike Mag:
First Ride: Fox E16 Tune | BIKE Magazine


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> Pressure in the lowers? Have you read the first page of this thread?


I actually let all the air out and cycled my older fork with the lowers on before I came upon this thread. It worked before, so I'll try that first. Fingers crossed. My older 36 which is throughly broken in and serviced by Suspension Experts is the best fork I have ever ridden in regards to performance. It did develop the typical 3-6 month Fox oil leak.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## -C- (Oct 26, 2006)

I'm glad it appears not to just be me.

After all the reviews of the 36, suggesting they were back in the game, the fork is brilliant, superb supple initial travel, good mid & end stroke support, it's been one of the biggest letdown products I have ever experienced after the hype.

Along with my Lyrik, I manage to pick up a cheap, used Deville, just to mess around with, if the Lyrik didn't do as I wanted. If journo's & others want the definition of butter, with good mid stroke support, they should probably try Bos. Nothing i've ridden has come close to getting that balance right.

I chucked it on for this weekend, just for a basis of comparison, as it's been a few years since i've ridden one. As good as the Lyrik is, it still doesn't touch the Bos. There is enough support in the UK from aftermarket suspension tuners now to run a Bos fork, especially picking one up secondhand. 

It won't make me any faster, but it means I can finish my rides pain free. Should have saved myself the hassle & just kept running what I had already.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

-C- said:


> I'm glad it appears not to just be me.
> 
> After all the reviews of the 36, suggesting they were back in the game, the fork is brilliant, superb supple initial travel, good mid & end stroke support, it's been one of the biggest letdown products I have ever experienced after the hype.


So why do you think that is? Even the 2015 fox were lauded as being "pike level" in plushness. Every mag said so, from this side of the pond to yours. But than came the bad early shim stack and other issues. The 2016 was supposed to fix the 2015 issue. Do you think you got a lemon or is the 36 just not the fork for you (or me for that matter).


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## mtnbiker831 (Sep 19, 2011)

I have had multiple pikes and have never felt a fork as good as the 16 fox 36. Traction is on another level than any rockshox I have ridden. With that being said, the rc2 damper I think is far superior on the dh than the fit4, although it sounds like they are trying to change that with the new e17 tune.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I just bought a RC2 36, and my lbs included sending it for custom tuning by Suspension Werx. It will replace my Pike next week.


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## mattwright999 (Jun 25, 2014)

Travis Bickle said:


> I just bought a RC2 36, and my lbs included sending it for custom tuning by Suspension Werx. It will replace my Pike next week.


Also just had a new fork tuned by SuspensionWerx (16' 170mm RC2), still waiting on my frame to come in so I have not had the chance to try it yet.

Let us know how yours is!


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## hardboiled (Jun 10, 2006)

I think the performance knock on the new 36 is limited to low speed/early travel sensitivity, and I too think it's down to stiction in the air spring. but I think it just needs frequent maintenance. out of the box, they are pretty smooth. with the pike, I could get away with just servicing the lowers without worrying too much about the air spring. with the fox, seems like I need to do air spring every time I do the lowers, which if you ride alot is going to be every couple months (about the same as the pike). 

having owned both, I don't think one is significantly better than the other (and if you read the reviews, I don't think anyone with any credibility claims there is a clear winner between the two), but they have different strengths and weaknesses.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

I released all the air and put in slightly less air than my other 36. I'm getting close to full travel after opening the HSC more. I then had to dial in more LSC. Still a little choppy on medium speed hits but I do like a firmer platform when JRA. I I'm not at the point to take it apart since I only have about 12 rides on it. 


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

DrDon said:


> I released all the air and put in slightly less air than my other 36. I'm getting close to full travel after opening the HSC more. I then had to dial in more LSC. Still a little choppy on medium speed hits but I do like a firmer platform when JRA. I I'm not at the point to take it apart since I only have about 12 rides on it.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Again, have you read the first page? After sustained use, pressure can build in the lowers. You can either use the zip tie trick or remove the lower bolts to "burp" the fork. Letting all the air out of the air spring will not accomplish the same thing.


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## jimw (Aug 10, 2004)

-C- said:


> The other 3, I'm not sure they are going to give me what I want, that first 1-2" of travel for me moving forward with this injury, I'm going to need to feel like a Marzocchi of old, super supple - but then some nice midstroke support and a good ramp up.


If you're not a weight weenie, here is the solution to this problem. Find a used 2015 Van RC2. Problem solved. 

(But seriously, that thing is the best feeling, lowest maintenance fork I've ever had. Sh1t just works.)


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> Again, have you read the first page? After sustained use, pressure can build in the lowers. You can either use the zip tie trick or remove the lower bolts to "burp" the fork. Letting all the air out of the air spring will not accomplish the same thing.


Read and understood. I'm being lazy I don't have many hours on it or long sustained west coast type downhills and because of the leaf fall I'm afraid of pushing too hard. I realize forks don't require the break in time like they did previously but I'll give it a week or two.

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## ban (Jul 24, 2004)

I did the zip tie trick this weekend and now the fork is working as it's supposed to...it's just a 2-minute work


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## hardboiled (Jun 10, 2006)

ban said:


> I did the zip tie trick this weekend and now the fork is working as it's supposed to...it's just a 2-minute work


another way to address this issue without risking damage to your fork seals or stanchion is to attach your shock pump, hold the release valve open and compress the fork. this is how fox recommended purging air from the lowers (although they also acknowledged that using a zip tie is equally effective and easier to do out on trail).


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

hardboiled said:


> another way to address this issue without risking damage to your fork seals or stanchion is to attach your shock pump, hold the release valve open and compress the fork. this is how fox recommended purging air from the lowers (although they also acknowledged that using a zip tie is equally effective and easier to do out on trail).


I get how compresssing the fork and spreading the seal with a zip tie on the stanchion vents the lowers but how would doing what you are saying reach the lowers to vent them?


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## hardboiled (Jun 10, 2006)

ac1000 said:


> I get how compresssing the fork and spreading the seal with a zip tie on the stanchion vents the lowers but how would doing what you are saying reach the lowers to vent them?


you keep the air chamber open (by holding open the air release button on your shock pump) and compress the fork past the point where the pos and neg air chambers equalize.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

hardboiled said:


> you keep the air chamber open (by holding open the air release button on your shock pump) and compress the fork past the point where the pos and neg air chambers equalize.


got it thanks


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

hardboiled said:


> another way to address this issue without risking damage to your fork seals or stanchion is to attach your shock pump, hold the release valve open and compress the fork. this is how fox recommended purging air from the lowers (although they also acknowledged that using a zip tie is equally effective and easier to do out on trail).


Well that's what I did and DMB yelled at me Seriously though, I took my other bike out today and it's 36 is much more supple. I'm going to try the zip tie trick.

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## hardboiled (Jun 10, 2006)

releasing the air out of the positive air chamber is not the same thing, which was DMB's point.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

I was referring to his post #67 and compared it to your post #71. I did let the air out while at the same time I compressed the fork. I guess I'm a little lost. Can you clarify? Thanks. 


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

The fork will naturally have air trapped in the lowers when compressed. As long as when its fully extended there is no air trapped or vacuum in the lowers then everything is fine and dandy.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Thanks


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

hardboiled said:


> you keep the air chamber open (by holding open the air release button on your shock pump) and compress the fork past the point where the pos and neg air chambers equalize.


I tried this on my new float 34 that has the same issue the OP describes, and there was still air in there that was released using the zip tie trick. Wouldn't have known about it if not for this thread, fork feels great now.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

First ride on the Lyrik today and its just a whole different world. Night and day different to the 36.


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## Wolfboy (Nov 18, 2006)

Rick Draper said:


> First ride on the Lyrik today and its just a whole different world. Night and day different to the 36.


Tell me more! A step up from the pike as well?


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## -C- (Oct 26, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> So why do you think that is? Even the 2015 fox were lauded as being "pike level" in plushness. Every mag said so, from this side of the pond to yours. But than came the bad early shim stack and other issues. The 2016 was supposed to fix the 2015 issue. Do you think you got a lemon or is the 36 just not the fork for you (or me for that matter).


IME It's not even close to the Pike - Maybe the review forks were 'worked on' before the reviews, but mine, and others i've ridden haven't been anywhere near as supple as a Pike/Lyrik/Deville (in that order).

It's a shame, because the 36 does have good mid stroke & bottom out support (better than the Pike, comparable to the Lyrik, not as good as the Deville) and as i've mentioned in my previous posts, when racing, the fork felt good. The problem is normal riding and messing about is not race pace, balls out to the wall speed.

Maybe initially I had a lemon, but I would like to think 2 rebuilds later, and some in depth conversations with the technicians they could have rectified the issues. But I can accept the fork maybe wasn't for me. It got shifted on for what it cost, so it wasn't a costly disaster 

FWIW, I did try the zip tie trick a few times & it made a small difference, but nothing of any real note.

It's a shame, as i'm clearly a fashionista & now my forks don't match my X2!

I would describe the Lyrik as a slightly stiffer. more supple Pike, that doesn't seem to suffer the deeper travel big hit issue the Pike did (spikey compression & rebound). I can't say i've extensively tested this though as the weather in the UK has been pretty rough and everything is waterlogged - flat out at the moment is about 50% of summer speed!

Is it telling that I haven't taken the Deville off my bike yet though? Who knows.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

My older 36 rides better than my old Pike. It didn't do so originally and has recently had the oil seals replaced by Suspension Experts under warranty. I haven't a chance to try my new 36 since I burped it. 


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

I think the bushing used in the negative bulkhead is causing most of the issues with stiction.


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## nightnerd (Mar 5, 2007)

Sorry to Hijack the thread but I bought a 2015 36 RC2 that came with the 15mm axle only. If someone got a 20mm axle(+shims?) that is not used I would be happy to buy it from him.


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## notphaedrus (Mar 19, 2016)

I've been disappointed with my 2016 FOX 36 RC2 ever since owning it. At times it feels like there is no suspension effect at all e.g. rocky steps at speed. The 2016 Lyrik was far plusher than my fork and held up well under braking. But, having spent £800 I wanted to make it work. I got Mojo to put a lighter shim stack in, and low friction seals. Apparently they didn't know anything about the E16 shim tune that is coming out for 2017, so this could be interesting. The thing that has made by far the biggest difference is a modification I have made to the negative spring volume, by mounting the final negative air spring seal right near the end of the fork leg (like a really short negative spring plate). Finally the plushness I was expecting!!! I'm looking to get a production run of these adaptors made, and will be selling them on forums for those looking for a Lyrik type plushness on the 2015 & 2016 Fox 36s...  Let me know if you are interested.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

notphaedrus said:


> The thing that has made by far the biggest difference is a modification I have made to the negative spring volume.


After been given a tip off ;-)


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## notphaedrus (Mar 19, 2016)

Rick Draper said:


> After been given a tip off ;-)


Definitely! Thanks for the inspiration... one free volume adjuster coming your way when they are made....


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## nightnerd (Mar 5, 2007)

notphaedrus said:


> I've been disappointed with my 2016 FOX 36 RC2 ever since owning it. At times it feels like there is no suspension effect at all e.g. rocky steps at speed. The 2016 Lyrik was far plusher than my fork and held up well under braking. But, having spent £800 I wanted to make it work. I got Mojo to put a lighter shim stack in, and low friction seals. Apparently they didn't know anything about the E16 shim tune that is coming out for 2017, so this could be interesting. The thing that has made by far the biggest difference is a modification I have made to the negative spring volume, by mounting the final negative air spring seal right near the end of the fork leg (like a really short negative spring plate). Finally the plushness I was expecting!!! I'm looking to get a production run of these adaptors made, and will be selling them on forums for those looking for a Lyrik type plushness on the 2015 & 2016 Fox 36s...  Let me know if you are interested.


I'm interested! Please keep us posted. Will you provide a installation guide?


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

notphaedrus said:


> I've been disappointed with my 2016 FOX 36 RC2 ever since owning it. At times it feels like there is no suspension effect at all e.g. rocky steps at speed. The 2016 Lyrik was far plusher than my fork and held up well under braking. But, having spent £800 I wanted to make it work. I got Mojo to put a lighter shim stack in, and low friction seals. Apparently they didn't know anything about the E16 shim tune that is coming out for 2017, so this could be interesting. The thing that has made by far the biggest difference is a modification I have made to the negative spring volume, by mounting the final negative air spring seal right near the end of the fork leg (like a really short negative spring plate). Finally the plushness I was expecting!!! I'm looking to get a production run of these adaptors made, and will be selling them on forums for those looking for a Lyrik type plushness on the 2015 & 2016 Fox 36s...  Let me know if you are interested.


Could you elaborate more on this please?

Which pieces in this picture get moved/modified?


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## Gadub (Mar 24, 2016)

Just get a DVO Diamond and be rid of all these issues. I've ridden them all and it's my favorite by far. Super plush at the beginning of the stroke, great mid stroke and I can't bottom the thing out. Adjustability for different riding conditions is superb, holds its line better and feels stiff and predictable in the corners. I'm in love...


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Gadub said:


> Just get a DVO Diamond and be rid of all these issues. I've ridden them all and it's my favorite by far. Super plush at the beginning of the stroke, great mid stroke and I can't bottom the thing out. Adjustability for different riding conditions is superb, holds its line better and feels stiff and predictable in the corners. I'm in love...


It does seem odd that people need to mod a $1200 fork to make it feel correct. I would agree with you, get another fork (like a lyric).


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

Yes I'm not at all thrilled about having to do any modifications to get rid of the nasty 1/4 stroke spike from this thing (16 float rc2 160mm) that's a week old.

If there's a slam drunk fix for this issue that isn't going to involve many follow-up visits into the fork to get it sorted out, I'll give that a try, but I'm over doing unpaid development work for these companies.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I agree^^^

I got my 2015 Fox 36 last fall and while it felt awesome (stiff, no stickiness), I had to send it in for the to get damper upgrades after I started developing some harshing knocking... I also had trouble dialing it in. I ended up going to a local Fox tuner to installed the Ohlins piston, updated damper internals, shim stack and custom settings. It feels awesome now but to throw money at a new fork is silly.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Vespasianus said:


> It does seem odd that people need to mod a $1200 fork to make it feel correct. I would agree with you, get another fork (like a lyric).


Who pays 1200 for a Fox 36?


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

TwoTone said:


> Who pays 1200 for a Fox 36?


£800 is close to $1200.


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

I could need some help/advice:
At the weekend I've serviced my 2016er 36 FIT4 (160mm) for the first time; I've released old oil, cleaned the lowers filled in new oil in there, and released the air. 

But: I've now (don't know exactly how it was before) such an vacuum in the neg chamber that I have to pump it up at least to 65psi to have all the 160mm (below 65psi the travel reduces more and more). I haven't open the air spring side - shall I do that? How can I remove the vacuum from the neg chamber (I'm pretty sure the issue comes from this chamber)?

Even if I'm able to handle this I'm not that satisfied with the FIT4; still thinking about replacing it by a lyric. I'm more a cozy rider and think I don't really benefit from the more "race nature" of the Fox. Any advice? After all waiting for the E16 Tune?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

aenduro said:


> I could need some help/advice:
> At the weekend I've serviced my 2016er 36 FIT4 (160mm) for the first time; I've released old oil, cleaned the lowers filled in new oil in there, and released the air.
> 
> But: I've now (don't know exactly how it was before) such an vacuum in the neg chamber that I have to pump it up at least to 65psi to have all the 160mm (below 65psi the travel reduces more and more). I haven't open the air spring side - shall I do that? How can I remove the vacuum from the neg chamber (I'm pretty sure the issue comes from this chamber)?
> ...


If you don't like the "race" type set-up for the 36 (which I call heavily damped), sell it and get another fork. The best thing about Fox Forks is that there are profession tuners for them and they have a good resale value. Pick one of those options.


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## Stalkerfiveo (Feb 24, 2015)

-C- said:


> By chance, I hopped on my buddies Nomad with a BOS Deville on the front, he's a good 30lbs heavier than me, and his bike is set up for him, yet his fork literally felt like butter compared to mine, almost instant relief when riding. Amusingly, first thing he says about mine? Man, that fork is hard!


Have you tried going the other direction with your fork setup? Coming from dirtbike racing, many times a setup that is too soft will feel harsh because you aren't riding high enough in the stroke. Could be the same here. Not having enough air pressure could give the wrong fork sag and ride too low in the stroke and your first 1-2" of travel is already into the mid stroke.

I'd go 10 lbs over recommended air spring pressure and see if it is any better if softening it up is making it worse.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Stalkerfiveo has a point... That happened to me with my Avy 888.

The Fox 36 chassis is good so don't give up on your fork. It's just your damper may be buggered somehow. I say send your fork to Push Ind. I still think it's pretty damn shitty of Fox to release stuff onto the market that is faulty. 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

I live in GER, so sending it to Push ind. could become expensive and time-consuming. I guess atfer all I will keep the Fox and go for the E16 tune. 
What I've read the fork just needs more rides and more active pushing - think I simply have to get used to this. thanks.


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## ohjonnyboy (Apr 3, 2014)

notphaedrus said:


> Let me know if you are interested.


Definitely interested. I read you had worked some magic on the Patrol PB forum. Just what the fork needs


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## TwistdSpokes (Aug 11, 2009)

I am having issues with my 2016 Fox 36/160 RC2 - I cannot get it to use "most" of the travel. With the blue spacer installed it was leaving about 1 3/4" left of unused at 20% sag. So I removed the blue spacer and set at 25% sag and still have 1 3/4" left unused. I rode with the HSC/LSC backed out and it made 0 difference. I have no clue what is going on with it - geared up I am probably 190 lbs. 

I have had some pretty hard hits on the front fork that should have been close to bottoming it out but it always stops 1 3/4" short. When I let the air out of the fork and compress the fork it does bottom out so nothing internal stopping it, but just feels like an overly progressive air spring.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Yeah I'm in the same boat. I find my 36 feels awesome but for some reason I can't get the last 1.5 of travel. A local shop that tuned my fork with some custom stuff told me for my particular frame and fork combo, I have to really lean on it while riding aggressively. Tried that but it's still hard to get close to bottoming. Overall it feels great anyway so I'm not too concerned. 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## epicxcrider123 (Nov 28, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> I think the bushing used in the negative bulkhead is causing most of the issues with stiction.


I was having trouble with stiction after a recent rebuild, my fix was to put ~7cc of 20wt oil above the bushing in the negative bulkhead. Fork feels amazing now and no problems after about 10 hours hard riding so far.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Christopher Robin said:


> Yeah I'm in the same boat. I find my 36 feels awesome but for some reason I can't get the last 1.5 of travel. A local shop that tuned my fork with some custom stuff told me for my particular frame and fork combo, I have to really lean on it while riding aggressively. Tried that but it's still hard to get close to bottoming. Overall it feels great anyway so I'm not too concerned.
> 
> Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


Suspension travel is all about quality not quantity. I would rather ride a shock that holds a little back but feels great as opposed to one that uses all its travel but feels like crap.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Suspension travel is all about quality not quantity. I would rather ride a shock that holds a little back but feels great as opposed to one that uses all its travel but feels like crap.


No I agree. Even my 888 with Avy cartridge doesn't bottom out. I also don't get the last 1.5 - 2" or so of travel (partly because of the hydraulic bottom out system) but it stays up in the travel, doesn't pack up and hauls ass.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

Seems I should have read this thread before dropping money on a 2017 36 HSC/LSC for my Bronson (coming off a lyrik). I've got 100kms+ on it now and I have not been able to get it anywhere near as good as my lyrik was.

Just hope you guys can sanity check for me, I'm around 90kgs/200lbs kitted. Recommended pressure is around 80 PSI which very firm and only ~10% sag. I get 20% sag at 67 PSI but the ride is too harsh. So far the best setup I have found is ~60 PSI and LSC tuned to keep the fork up, which works well for most riding but when it does hit hard enough to bottom the bottom out is hard.

I haven't changed the tokens yet which is my next course of action and I'll also do the cable tie trick as well in case it's had air trapped from new. Hoping it's just tuning and I can get it right, the fork feels so burly and looks so great, it would be a shame to get rid of it.


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

Even though I have the 2016er 160 FIT4 (your actual LC2 should act similar), I've struggled with similar issues in the first few months.
With 170lbs (geared up), I run 20% SAG / ~65psi, the factory token and 5 clicks LSC in. I had only one bottom out the last months and after doing a service (oil) and checking if there's any air in the casting I can't complain about harshness anymore.

The cable tie trick works fine, but I would recommend to open the fork (air champer, changing oil) and check if everything is well greased. The important thing is to release the air slowly- the neg. air chamber is a bit huffy.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

I may be asking a lot of my 36. I ride mostly rocky trails. The fork opens up on the fast steep choppy downs. Since it is a enduro/AM fork, I wonder if it's tune is too aggressive for less sedate riding. 


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

I added some slickoleum or Slick honey to the inside of the fork bushings instead of the usual 20wt fork oil. This made a huge difference. 

I also leave my bike upside down until I ride. 

Over the weekend I added another blue volume spacer "Now 2", and am running a lower PSI but have not had a chance to check it out.

I have both HSC & LSC completely open. Fork set to 150mm and weigh 180. My goal now is to get the rear "CCDB CS" to match the front until a fork rebuild is necessary.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

Creg said:


> Seems I should have read this thread before dropping money on a 2017 36 HSC/LSC for my Bronson (coming off a lyrik). I've got 100kms+ on it now and I have not been able to get it anywhere near as good as my lyrik was.
> 
> Just hope you guys can sanity check for me, I'm around 90kgs/200lbs kitted. Recommended pressure is around 80 PSI which very firm and only ~10% sag. I get 20% sag at 67 PSI but the ride is too harsh. So far the best setup I have found is ~60 PSI and LSC tuned to keep the fork up, which works well for most riding but when it does hit hard enough to bottom the bottom out is hard.
> 
> I haven't changed the tokens yet which is my next course of action and I'll also do the cable tie trick as well in case it's had air trapped from new. Hoping it's just tuning and I can get it right, the fork feels so burly and looks so great, it would be a shame to get rid of it.





DrDon said:


> I may be asking a lot of my 36. I ride mostly rocky trails. The fork opens up on the fast steep choppy downs. Since it is a enduro/AM fork, I wonder if it's tune is too aggressive for less sedate riding.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


First the fork takes about 8-12 hours to break in properly and it does not feel great out of the box. Secondly as stated above Slick Honey or some other high quality suspension grease on the bushing and stanchions makes a huge improvement in the ability of the fork to soak up small chatter. I have found that it is very sensitive to service intervals at around 60-80 hours. It does not require an oil change, but instead a re-grease of the bushings and stanchions. Hope this helps.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I'm close to 210lbs with kit (which is a fanny pack with two water bottles) and I'm somewhere near 85psi with pretty much 20% sag. I have an orange token and 3/4 blue token (it was machined down slightly for me). I'm about 10 or 12 clicks out from full hard on all settings. Mine is a 2015 Rc2 so I'm not sure if it's different from yours. 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Made my 170mm fork come alive by making a number of modifications to the air spring. Its now truly superb, supple off the top like a Lyrik but more controlled through the stroke.

I am about 200lbs RTR and run 80psi, one orange and one blue volume spacer and only occasionally achieve full travel. Before I was running one blue spacer and 70psi ish and it was harsh and never got anywhere near full travel.


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

Thanks for the help guys, jammed the cable tie in and a huge amount of air was trapped in the legs from new. I now need 75 PSI to get 20% sag and it feels much plusher when I push on it. Time to get tuning!


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

So, I'm still having issues with my fork. While it's still not what I would call plush, I've now noticed it makes a metal-on-metal noise/hard stop when it reaches full travel. Is this normal? My experience is mostly with rockshox forks and they didn't make this sort of noise/feeling at full travel, to me it feels like something is configured wrong inside. The forks are brand new so I am sending them back for inspection.


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## LastDetail (Apr 2, 2014)

Creg said:


> So, I'm still having issues with my fork. While it's still not what I would call plush, I've now noticed it makes a metal-on-metal noise/hard stop when it reaches full travel. Is this normal? My experience is mostly with rockshox forks and they didn't make this sort of noise/feeling at full travel, to me it feels like something is configured wrong inside. The forks are brand new so I am sending them back for inspection.


Sounds like you were bottoming them out hard. You can help avoid this by adding volume spacers to ramp up the travel through the compression as well as adding a few clicks of hi-speed compression as well.


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

I have done that but my question is whether it's normal for 36s to make a metal hitting metal noise at the end of the travel? I would have expected a rubber stop or something.


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## svj (Feb 1, 2014)

I have a 2016 36 running ~80 psi- one orange and one blue spacer, I'm 215 geared up. HSC is wide open and it feels great everywhere from rocky descents to jump trails, but if i go anywhere with small chatter (think fire road at 15-30mph) it feels like garbage. Zero suspension movement. Is this air spring stiction, or do I have damping issues? Seems odd to be wide open on hsc, but I'm not bottoming on anything.

FWIW, I dropped the lowers and greased the bushings, seals and air spring and filled with fresh fox gold after about 10 hrs of riding. Now close to 30.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

svj said:


> I have a 2016 36 running ~80 psi- one orange and one blue spacer, I'm 215 geared up. HSC is wide open and it feels great everywhere from rocky descents to jump trails, but if i go anywhere with small chatter (think fire road at 15-30mph) it feels like garbage. Zero suspension movement. Is this air spring stiction, or do I have damping issues? Seems odd to be wide open on hsc, but I'm not bottoming on anything.
> 
> FWIW, I dropped the lowers and greased the bushings, seals and air spring and filled with fresh fox gold after about 10 hrs of riding. Now close to 30.


What travel is the fork?


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## svj (Feb 1, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> What travel is the fork?


160mm


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Weird stuff happening everywhere... 
-Running LSC and HSC completely open should be making the fork feel worse. That damping is needed to keep the fork up in its travel and to give you traction. 

@Creg. I've never felt the metal on metal, but I've never bottomed. My last few suspension forks didn't have bottom out bumpers...I guess because the goal is to never bottom out, which equals to loss of traction. I'd say make sure the metal on metal sound is really the stanchion tubes hitting the bottom of the lowers, and not something banging around in the damper.

@svj. Strange. How's does your fork move when you're pedaling on a normal trail? Damper issue maybe?


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## svj (Feb 1, 2014)

Christopher Robin said:


> Weird stuff happening everywhere...
> 
> @svj. Strange. How's does your fork move when you're pedaling on a normal trail? Damper issue maybe?


I'd say that it feels like it doesn't move much until I encounter a bump large enough to overcome whatever is holding it from moving. Standing and mashing results in expected bob.

For the most part I am pleased with it, it just seems strange to me that someone my weight would be able to run HSC wide open and that it has so much resistance to absorb small chatter. I am almost willing to overlook this because it works so well at speed through rougher stuff.


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

Creg said:


> I have done that but my question is whether it's normal for 36s to make a metal hitting metal noise at the end of the travel? I would have expected a rubber stop or something.


Just to follow up, there is a rubber stopper in the legs. Mine had been squashed and captured by the stanchion. All fixed now with no damage


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## wizard604 (Jul 10, 2011)

I have an older fox talas 36R (2011) which I just upgraded to the 2016 RC2 damper.

Anyways I have none of the harshness that others have mentioned here. In fact it's quite the opposite. The fork is now sooo plush. No more brake dive, good mid stroke support and hugs the ground. It's totally transformed my ride so much that I am totally shocked. All this while still running my old original talas air spring. 

Just for reference, I have ridden the pike as well as boxxer with charger. The rc2 performs every bit as well and just as plush.

I'm light weight 135 lbs. Settings are 50 psi, +12 hsc, +16 lsc, +16 lsr. 

It probably would have been better just to buy a brand new fork rather than upgrade my old one. But I got a pretty sweet deal.


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

Has anyone tried the low friction wipers from racing bros? They have good reviews for improving small bump compliance


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Rick Draper said:


> What travel is the fork?


What about adding another spacer and dropping pressure?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

svj said:


> I have a 2016 36 running ~80 psi- one orange and one blue spacer, I'm 215 geared up. HSC is wide open and it feels great everywhere from rocky descents to jump trails, but if i go anywhere with small chatter (think fire road at 15-30mph) it feels like garbage. Zero suspension movement. Is this air spring stiction, or do I have damping issues? Seems odd to be wide open on hsc, but I'm not bottoming on anything.
> 
> FWIW, I dropped the lowers and greased the bushings, seals and air spring and filled with fresh fox gold after about 10 hrs of riding. Now close to 30.


I think there are definite stiction issues which is why I asked about the aftermarket wipers - I notice a big difference in the initial break-away when I leave my bike upside down before I ride.

That aside, I've made improvements by adding tokens and dropping the pressure. I'm ~200lbs kitted up and running 2 orange spacers, 67psi (equates to 25% sag in attack) and about 4-5 clicks of HSC and LSC from open.


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## svj (Feb 1, 2014)

Creg said:


> I think there are definite stiction issues which is why I asked about the aftermarket wipers - I notice a big difference in the initial break-away when I leave my bike upside down before I ride.
> 
> That aside, I've made improvements by adding tokens and dropping the pressure. I'm ~200lbs kitted up and running 2 orange spacers, 67psi (equates to 25% sag in attack) and about 4-5 clicks of HSC and LSC from open.


I'll look into the wipers. I am now ~68psi, same issue. Bike is stored inverted, so that shouldn't be an issue.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I'm not sure what exactly they did to the fork but it has been amazing. I can't think of anything I would improve on.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

The 36 air spring is incredibly tuneable, you just have to think outside of the box and do things differently.


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## esku (Jul 26, 2005)

Travis Bickle said:


> I'm not sure what exactly they did to the fork but it has been amazing. I can't think of anything I would improve on.


Exactly :thumbsup:


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I'm almost 210 fully kitted (fanny pack with water) and I'm at 95psi. My settings are all about -10 clicks from full closed. 1 orange and 1 blue spacer. Sag is around 20% or so. I got the Push Industries full rebuild and it's pretty awesome.


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

Christopher Robin said:


> I got the Push Industries full rebuild and it's pretty awesome.


I just got mine back from my suspension centre for their "blueprint service" and they honestly feel like a different fork. The tune involves sizing the bushings, use of different oils in damper and bath, changes to the shim stacks, and a modifications to the air shaft which they don't go into detail about.

The stiction and harshness is gone and they feel at least as plush as my lyriks.


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## EJ_92606 (Jul 11, 2004)

I've tried 3 different size zip ties on my fox 34 and none of them are strong enough to push past the seal. Any advice?


Porch said:


> Do it on both legs. I pushed the zip tie down as far as it would go, which wasn't very far on the Fox 36, maybe 1/2". Make sure everything is clean so you don't push dirt down inside!
> 
> I talked to the owner of my LBS about it today and he showed me that his Fox 40's actually have a valve on them (on both legs) to do the same thing.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

EJ_92606 said:


> I've tried 3 different size zip ties on my fox 34 and none of them are strong enough to push past the seal. Any advice?


You have to sharpen the edge with a knife or with your teeth.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

Finally got a good set up on my fork. Ended up with one orange, two blue tokens, 68 psi, slow rebound (3 clicks from closed), and 5-6 clicks from open on both HSC/LSC. I'm around 190lbs.

As mentioned I had the stiction addressed by my local suspension workshop, who also recommended the very slow rebound. The fork has rapid recovery so the slow rebound does not affect big hit rebound performance. When tuning I found that anything above 70 psi (with less tokens) impacted the small bump compliance, which is why I started running more token/less pressure.


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## reformed roadie (Mar 30, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> The 36 air spring is incredibly tuneable, you just have to think outside of the box and do things differently.


Care to elaborate? Other than the obvious tokens. Did you mod the negative spring? 
I have my 2015 RC2 @ 150mm. 
It is due for an oil change, and I was planning on swapping one of the blue spacers for an orange and drop pressure a bit.
My 'problem' is that the new shock I got (CCDB Inline...while it lasts, right?) now makes the front seem less plush. Before with the stock Fox float CTD, it was the other way around.


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## cmrocks (Sep 30, 2013)

What about the Ohlins / Andreani piston kit? Suspension Werx in North Vancouver sells them for $150 CAD and they supposedly make a big difference.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

cmrocks said:


> What about the Ohlins / Andreani piston kit? Suspension Werx in North Vancouver sells them for $150 CAD and they supposedly make a big difference.


The are nice pieces of kit. 2 compression tunes supplied and a high flow rebound piston and new rebound tune.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Yup. The Ohlins kit + full Push tune = good! 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## crankarms (Nov 13, 2011)

travman said:


> I am having issues with my 2016 Fox 36/160 RC2 - I cannot get it to use "most" of the travel. With the blue spacer installed it was leaving about 1 3/4" left of unused at 20% sag. So I removed the blue spacer and set at 25% sag and still have 1 3/4" left unused. I rode with the HSC/LSC backed out and it made 0 difference. I have no clue what is going on with it - geared up I am probably 190 lbs.
> 
> I have had some pretty hard hits on the front fork that should have been close to bottoming it out but it always stops 1 3/4" short. When I let the air out of the fork and compress the fork it does bottom out so nothing internal stopping it, but just feels like an overly progressive air spring.


Weighing in late here but am in the same boat. I'm about 175-180 lbs kitted up and am running just below 50 psi to achieve 25-27% sag (silly) and never ever see last 1.5+ inches of travel no matter how hard I hit it. HSC and LSC are almost wide open and rebound is about 8 from closed. I won't say it's horrible, but is a lot less plush than I thought it would be... Do I have a lemon or is this salvageable? All advise welcomed.


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## mtnbiker831 (Sep 19, 2011)

Weird. I weigh 195 and run 78.5 psi and am able to use all the travel. I had push do a rebuild and custom tune on the fork and they took a great fork and ruined it. They took most of the compression damping out and it had tons of stiction. I sent it back for a retune, and it came back with tons of stiction and an odd delay between rebound and compression movements that it never had before. I then had fox fix what was done, and traction has never been better. It is better to set up the fork with the proper amount of sag and not bottom out (akarobably not riding things that warrant 160mm of travel) then have a fork that is sagged into the midstroke but uses all the travel.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

crankarms said:


> Weighing in late here but am in the same boat. I'm about 175-180 lbs kitted up and am running just below 50 psi to achieve 25-27% sag (silly) and never ever see last 1.5+ inches of travel no matter how hard I hit it. HSC and LSC are almost wide open and rebound is about 8 from closed. I won't say it's horrible, but is a lot less plush than I thought it would be... Do I have a lemon or is this salvageable? All advise welcomed.


pressurized lowers?


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## crankarms (Nov 13, 2011)

Thanks, yes weird indeed! Your psi setting make sense. 
It's like I'm in "NoMansLand" with this, it just doesn't make sense. Curious on why you sent it to Push in the first place... what was the problem?
I 'm certainly not looking to bottom out, but there is a fair amount of travel that I'm not using and where I ride is very rocky and rooty that gets exposed due to lack of soil... needless to say, some suppleness would be helpful.
Not sure about adding spacers.as I'm uncertain how that would help given bottoming out isn't the problem but that said, I may be missing something.
What was the process for getting fox in the mix. Did you talk to them directly or did you go through your lbs? Thanks


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## crankarms (Nov 13, 2011)

fsrxc said:


> pressurized lowers?


Possibly, is this the issue that can be resolved with the zip tie fix and if so is there a video post of this somewhere... or does this pertain to something else?

Thanks for the suggestion?


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## mtnbiker831 (Sep 19, 2011)

crankarms said:


> Thanks, yes weird indeed! Your psi setting make sense.
> It's like I'm in "NoMansLand" with this, it just doesn't make sense. Curious on why you sent it to Push in the first place... what was the problem?
> I 'm certainly not looking to bottom out, but there is a fair amount of travel that I'm not using and where I ride is very rocky and rooty that gets exposed due to lack of soil... needless to say, some suppleness would be helpful.
> Not sure about adding spacers.as I'm uncertain how that would help given bottoming out isn't the problem but that said, I may be missing something.
> What was the process for getting fox in the mix. Did you talk to them directly or did you go through your lbs? Thanks


I blew the damper up, so it needed a service and I figured why not send it to push, I have heard good things. I have done both ways getting service with fox, direct and lbs. Usually a pretty quick turn around as well.


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

I would replace fluid in the lowers & add either sram butter, slickoleum or some other grease to the bushing before modding or sending it in for tuning.


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## crankarms (Nov 13, 2011)

Okay, thanks folks, just wanted to confirm that something doesn't seem quite right... sounds like you agree.
I will give the lowers a go before I send out for service.

Is it true I need a special socket to disassemble or is the a workaround (tool) that will do the trick?
Thanks again for all responses.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Then people should be on coil forks. But the masses keep wanting lighter components, lighter suspension. I believe you shouldn't be bottoming out all the time. That defeats the purpose of "suspension". You should be using close to full travel but usually that last inch or so is for complete disasters where you're almost in endo-ing. 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

Christopher Robin said:


> Then people should be on coil forks. But the masses keep wanting lighter components, lighter suspension. I believe you shouldn't be bottoming out all the time. That defeats the purpose of "suspension". You should be using close to full travel but usually that last inch or so is for complete disasters where you're almost in endo-ing.
> 
> Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


Best forks I have ever ridden were 2011 Coil Lyrics with an avalanche damper. Almost as heavy as my bike but were perfect & paint free!


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

crankarms said:


> Possibly, is this the issue that can be resolved with the zip tie fix and if so is there a video post of this somewhere... or does this pertain to something else?
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion?


Yes, read page 1 of this thread.


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## crankarms (Nov 13, 2011)

Creg said:


> I think there are definite stiction issues which is why I asked about the aftermarket wipers - I notice a big difference in the initial break-away when I leave my bike upside down before I ride.
> 
> That aside, I've made improvements by adding tokens and dropping the pressure. I'm ~200lbs kitted up and running 2 orange spacers, 67psi (equates to 25% sag in attack) and about 4-5 clicks of HSC and LSC from open.


Just curious, everybody seems to be changing out tokens/spacers no problem. What tools are people using to remove the Top Cap on the fork without damaging it. Following fox instructions I need a 32 mm chamferless socket or a grinder to smooth out a regular socket... I don't have a grinder and it would appear trying to find one of these Chamferless sockets is like trying to find a unicorn. Any advise?


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

crankarms said:


> Just curious, everybody seems to be changing out tokens/spacers no problem. What tools are people using to remove the Top Cap on the fork without damaging it. Following fox instructions I need a 32 mm chamferless socket or a grinder to smooth out a regular socket... I don't have a grinder and it would appear trying to find one of these Chamferless sockets is like trying to find a unicorn. Any advise?


Send one to me and I'll machine one flat for you. PM me for the socket you should buy.


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

crankarms said:


> Just curious, everybody seems to be changing out tokens/spacers no problem. What tools are people using to remove the Top Cap on the fork without damaging it. Following fox instructions I need a 32 mm chamferless socket or a grinder to smooth out a regular socket... I don't have a grinder and it would appear trying to find one of these Chamferless sockets is like trying to find a unicorn. Any advise?


I bought one of these Lunar Bike Tools


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## crankarms (Nov 13, 2011)

Creg said:


> I bought one of these Lunar Bike Tools


Thanks for getting back to me Creg. Does it fit pretty snug and any concerns cranking it back on? Do you us much force to tighten it down?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Rick draper, what air spring mods did you do?


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

That is pretty cool & defi easier than buying a socket & grinding. Thanks!


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## EJ_92606 (Jul 11, 2004)

crankarms said:


> Thanks for getting back to me Creg. Does it fit pretty snug and any concerns cranking it back on? Do you us much force to tighten it down?


This tool looks good. I think I'll get it. I just used an adjustable wrench but I was a bit careless with it and it damaged one side of the fastener. Still tightens fine though.


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

Which fork seals do you guys prefer? Push, enduro or Fox.

I add slickoleum or slick honey during every lower maint so I don't think stiction is an issue.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

ttchad said:


> Which fork seals do you guys prefer? Push, enduro or Fox.
> 
> I add slickoleum or slick honey during every lower maint so I don't think stiction is an issue.


SKF or Racing Bros.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

I am in the same situation with my fox 36 . Good on the big stuff but zero small bump compliance. I'm about 90Kg/ 200ib . 79psi is recommended but I am down to 53psi. At this pressure is OK on the small stuff but I have had some harsh bottom outs on jumps. HSC fully open. LSC two clicks from open. rebound two clicks faster than recommend. one blue token. Stuck a tie wrap in this morning which did release a little bit of air. Will test it Wednesday. Ordered SKF seals and kit for lowers. I will keep you posted if I find something that works.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

I have removed the top cap with just an adjustable wrench in a pinch. A standard 32mm socket has worked as well.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

Glenn 10 said:


> I am in the same situation with my fox 36 . Good on the big stuff but zero small bump compliance. I'm about 90Kg/ 200ib . 79psi is recommended but I am down to 53psi. At this pressure is OK on the small stuff but I have had some harsh bottom outs on jumps. HSC fully open. LSC two clicks from open. rebound two clicks faster than recommend. one blue token. Stuck a tie wrap in this morning which did release a little bit of air. Will test it Wednesday. Ordered SKF seals and kit for lowers. I will keep you posted if I find something that works.


Have you done a service on it recently? Lubing the bushings and foam ring does wonders for sensitivity. To maintain optimal functionality it should be done every 40-50 hours of riding. For those that complain about this, it is the same for the Pike/Lyrik. Everyone says 100 hours now, but there is a definite drop in sensitivity in the time frame that I mention.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

The fork is at around 50 hours now so I have stuff ordered to service it. It has been harsh from new. I've been tweeking it every week for the last 5 months. This week I will see if zip tie trick works.....if that doesn't work I will try something next week. I believe I am missing something.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Glenn 10 said:


> The fork is at around 50 hours now so I have stuff ordered to service it. It has been harsh from new. I've been tweeking it every week for the last 5 months. This week I will see if zip tie trick works.....if that doesn't work I will try something next week. I believe I am missing something.


What travel is your fork?

One persons harsh feeling fork is another persons ideal setup. Everyone likes a different feel.


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## crankarms (Nov 13, 2011)

Salespunk said:


> I have removed the top cap with just an adjustable wrench in a pinch. A standard 32mm socket has worked as well.


Thanks Salespunk, I decided to purchase a chamferless socket just to be safe as I'm expecting I will be in and out of the fork on a semi-regular basis.

Just curious, I was following you on another thread from 2015 (Fox 36 on HD3) similar topic - Fox 36. I'm curious as to where you have landed with your settings... PSI/Rebound/LSC/HSC/Spacers?
I'm obviously still trying to sort out my 2016-RC2 36... 175-180lbs. The fox site recommends 71 psi and Pivot (Mach 6) recommends 55 psi... interesting. I understand the tuning of a shock is very specific to the bike however I didn't think there was any specific tune/recommendation for a fork. Thoughts??

Thanks again


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

160mm. It is subjective but I doubt that anyone likes loosing traction on the front when the wheel is bouncing off the chatter instead of tracking.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

I tried out the fork after doing the trick with the cable tie and it did feel better on the small stuff at 53psi. I tried going back up to 75psi (4psi lower than fox recommend) to see if I could now use factory settings and have more support. The fork had no small bump compliance at 20% sag. I noticed at 75psi the fork wasn't returning to full travel. When I measured the stanchion it was 10mm short. It took a bit of force to pull it out. I'm baffled and would appreciate some advice.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Glenn 10 said:


> I tried out the fork after doing the trick with the cable tie and it did feel better on the small stuff at 53psi. I tried going back up to 75psi (4psi lower than fox recommend) to see if I could now use factory settings and have more support. The fork had no small bump compliance at 20% sag. I noticed at 75psi the fork wasn't returning to full travel. When I measured the stanchion it was 10mm short. It took a bit of force to pull it out. I'm baffled and would appreciate some advice.


When you put the zip tie in did you compress the fork and then remove the zip tie with the fork compressed?


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

No. should I have? I just released to air.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

Glenn 10 said:


> No. should I have? I just released to air.


i would say no. sinking the the forks down while letting out the trapped air in the lowers can create an artificial negative spring and suck down your forks lower. it wouldn't last long since the movement past the seals would eventually equalize and then build up pressure again. i do what you did. just slide the zip ty in and listen for the air to come out.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks Justin. I'll play around with pressure and settings now that I have released the air.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Glenn 10 said:


> No. should I have? I just released to air.


No you should not but some people say to do so and that would account for the missing travel.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks Rick. The bike was hanging by the front wheel when I used the zip tie so It was not compressed. Can anyone tell me how the negative pressure works?


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

crankarms said:


> Thanks for getting back to me Creg. Does it fit pretty snug and any concerns cranking it back on? Do you us much force to tighten it down?


The fit is good, I don't use much force to tighten it. You have to be a little careful not to scratch the CSU with the outside edge of the wrench tho



Glenn 10 said:


> Thanks Rick. The bike was hanging by the front wheel when I used the zip tie so It was not compressed. Can anyone tell me how the negative pressure works?


If you burp the lowers with the forks compressed you'll create a vacuum in the legs when they are extended, so like having two negative chambers and also cause a loss of travel.

It's normal to lose about 5mm travel from the negative spring acting on the fork but it should be easy to extend, if it's difficult then your forks could be hydrolocked.

Your pressure of 53psi seems quite low to me. I'm 190lbs and I get ~22.5% sag in attack position with 75psi and one orange token. My small bump was drastically improved by running slower rebound, 3 clicks from closed. The fork has rapid recovery so you don't need to worry about it packing up.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Hi Creg. the forks were not compressed when I burped them. I will take your word on the expected loss of travel due to negative spring and therefore accept this aspect.
Since burping the fork I have tried it with 75psi, one blue token and rebound set to 3 clicks. I too am around 190lbs. I found this to work very well in rock gardens and provides great support. However, with this setup the fork offers very little small bump compliance which equals poor traction on bumpy corners. Now that the forks have been burped I will try 60psi and see what happens.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Still harsh at 60 psi. I had a chance to have a good look down at the fork on a stoney fire road this evening. The fork simply doesn't move and the wheel bounces off the stones. Same as a rigid fork. 
At 53psi and below the fork is plush over small stuff but dives through the travel.
So.... If I keep the fork at 53psi and load up with tokens would the fork stay plush at the start of the travel and ramp up to provide support further up in the travel?


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

Glenn 10 said:


> Still harsh at 60 psi. I had a chance to have a good look down at the fork on a stoney fire road this evening. The fork simply doesn't move and the wheel bounces off the stones. Same as a rigid fork.
> At 53psi and below the fork is plush over small stuff but dives through the travel.
> So.... If I keep the fork at 53psi and load up with tokens would the fork stay plush at the start of the travel and ramp up to provide support further up in the travel?


It's worth a try but that didn't work for me. When I tried 3 tokens (1 orange 2 blue) I found the ramp jarring on big impacts. I can't recall what PSI that was, maybe around 65


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Maybe it's a case of finding the right token combo?


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

Glenn 10 said:


> Maybe it's a case of finding the right token combo?


I would agree with that but I think if you're running really low pressure to compensate for something else then your set up will be compromised. Good luck!

FWIW I ran 2 orange tokens and 70 PSI today and that was nearly perfect for me.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Don't use an adj wrench on the crown / al top caps...it will make your fork - harsh!


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Creg. What are your other settings now? I have my lowers serviced and an equivalent amount of tokens to you now. An initial trial today at 53psi was just too soft and i still flew through the travel. I will be trying the fork tomorrow starting at 72psi.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Creg. When you say nearly perfect what would you like to improve?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Try resetting your negative air spring. Deflate it all the way. Cycle travel a few times. Try to get more air out. Then undo top cap and pull transfer rod out. Then reinstall and ulpump everything up again.


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## pmanfred (Nov 7, 2010)

My experience was three tokens provided too much ramp-up. I am 180 lb body weight and perfect with 2 blue tokens at 55 psi. My 36 is the 2015 model however (with version 2 valving).


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

92SE-R said:


> Try resetting your negative air spring. Deflate it all the way. Cycle travel a few times. Try to get more air out. Then undo top cap and pull transfer rod out. Then reinstall and ulpump everything up again.


If the fork extends fully then the negative air spring is fine and should be equalised unless the transfer port is blocked. Pumping the fork with no pressure in is a waste of time.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

He specifically said it wasnt extending all the way and he struggled to get it to full extension


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks 92se-r I did say that. I have been reading that 5mm is normal. I'm between 5 and 10mm. I will get back to this maye its normal. I'll try new setup after service and report back.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

What would make it perfect? What were your other settings at?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Also allows u to see if there is no grease or excessive grease


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## Creg (Nov 6, 2014)

Glenn 10 said:


> Creg. When you say nearly perfect what would you like to improve?


My current setting is 2 orange tokens, 70psi, 4 clicks from open of both HSC and LSC, 3 clicks from closed rebound.

Overall it's working very well but I'd like a little more compliance on small square edge hits.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

[QUOTE=92SE
When I was servicing the lowers I found that there was grease in the transfer port. (in the holes and in the dimple on the shaft) This is not going to help so I cleared the holes and used less grease on the transfer shaft.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Creg said:


> My current setting is 2 orange tokens, 70psi, 4 clicks from open of both HSC and LSC, 3 clicks from closed rebound.
> 
> Overall it's working very well but I'd like a little more compliance on small square edge hits.


After the I serviced the lowers and put in extra tokens I found the following setup worked well. 67psi, HSC open, LSC 1 click from open, Rebound 6 clicks from full closed. (72psi felt good too)
Like you I felt that it would be nice to have a little more compliance so I dropped the pressure to 60psi. Here's where it gets strange. At 60psi the fork became very harsh in the small stuff again.
Is it possible that once you go below a certain pressure (SAG) that the positive/negative transfer port is running too deep into the lowers not allowing the fork equalise pressure on the small stuff?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

At lower pressures, especially at your weight, you are diving too deep into your travel and hitting the steep portion of the curve ramp up on the air spring.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

92SE-R said:


> At lower pressures, especially at your weight, you are diving too deep into your travel and hitting the steep portion of the curve ramp up on the air spring.


that makes sense. I'm going to go back to 69psi and ride for a while. maybe this is as good as it's going to get.
What baffles me is that at that pressure and less tokens I only used about 2/3 of my travel on a particular trail. With extra tokens I used nearly all my travel.


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## mrazz001 (Dec 23, 2009)

Maybe pulling out the transfer rod released some additional trapped air. I swapped to an orange spacer and found I consistantly use more travel too, but the bike feels better overall. There was a pretty big gust of air when I pulled the rod out. Now I'm actually using a few psi more to get desired sag.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

mrazz001 said:


> Maybe pulling out the transfer rod released some additional trapped air. I swapped to an orange spacer and found I consistantly use more travel too, but the bike feels better overall. There was a pretty big gust of air when I pulled the rod out. Now I'm actually using a few psi more to get desired sag.


I'm becoming convinced it is something to do with the air transfer rod. Maybe due to over greasing in the factory affecting air transfer or as you and others have said trapped air. My fork is now plush on small stuff and takes big hits well but feels a little harsh on the mid sized stuff. For this reason I believe I should reduce the amount of tokens to reduce ramp up. So essentially I will be back to where I started except that the fork should work well now.


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

I've tried just about everything to get this fork dialed in. I've tried lower pressure, higher pressure, more tokens and less, more compression and less. I've taken it apart and changed oil, lubed seals. Big stuff feels great but high speed medium to small chunky stuff is almost unridable. It feels like I'm holding on to a jack hammer. 

I would sell it if I would lose so much. I pretty sure I'm just going to get the Avy cartridge and be done with it.

In the end I regret not keeping my Vengeance or not buying a Metric. The Vengeance was very easy to dial in and buttery smooth.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

mrgto said:


> I've tried just about everything to get this fork dialed in. I've tried lower pressure, higher pressure, more tokens and less, more compression and less. I've taken it apart and changed oil, lubed seals. Big stuff feels great but high speed medium to small chunky stuff is almost unridable. It feels like I'm holding on to a jack hammer.
> 
> I would sell it if I would lose so much. I pretty sure I'm just going to get the Avy cartridge and be done with it.
> 
> In the end I regret not keeping my Vengeance or not buying a Metric. The Vengeance was very easy to dial in and buttery smooth.


I agree with the jack hammer analogy.
This fork is getting great reviews elsewhere so I am hopeful that there is something small that we are missing.
I too have tried just about every setting so I think it is likely to be something internally in the fork.
I will keep you posted if I find anything that works. 
We are not the only ones with this issue.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Pull them apart and make the negative air volume bigger. I have rank mine like this for quite a while now.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Rick Draper said:


> Pull them apart and make the negative air volume bigger. I have rank mine like this for quite a while now.


How does your fork feel now after riding for a while?


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> Pull them apart and make the negative air volume bigger. I have rank mine like this for quite a while now.


I added the 2 spacers on the bottom when I changed my fork from 180 to 160, your saying take those spacers out?


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

Rick Draper said:


> Pull them apart and make the negative air volume bigger. I have rank mine like this for quite a while now.


Is the negative spring mod explained somewhere? I am interested in doing this to my fork.


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## goride4 (Apr 12, 2009)

I had a 2016 36 160mm rc2 27.5 and hated it, it beat the **** out of my hands. I picked up a 2016 180mm rc2 and already it feels way better. I called fox and they suggested putting a 10mm negative plate spacer and keeping the transfer Rod the same length to get a more supple small bump. This makes the transition to the negative air quicker and it feels amazing and completely transforms the fork. I think it only works with certain forks though. 

I run it in the 170 mode most of the time so I can actually climb but can now easily go to 180 with amazing performance with only one screw and one beer.


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm on it. Taking the spacers out ASAP and I'll report back.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

goride4 said:


> I think it only works with certain forks though.


It only works on say a 160mm fork if its set lower than 160mm or a 170mm fork set at 170mm or lower. If you run the format 180mm travel its not possible to make the negative air spring any bigger unless you remove the top out bumper.

You can however buy the 170/180mm air spring and fit it into the 160mm fork to allow you to adjust the negative air chamber.


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## ptd (Oct 18, 2012)

Rick Draper said:


> It only works on say a 160mm fork if its set lower than 160mm.


Sounds interesting.... So to be sure, if you have a 160mm fork set to 150mm you then leave the transfer rod at 160mm, and this makes the negative spring stronger by closing it off sooner?


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

ptd said:


> Sounds interesting.... So to be sure, if you have a 160mm fork set to 150mm you then leave the transfer rod at 160mm, and this makes the negative spring stronger by closing it off sooner?


No.

If you have a 160mm fork set to 150mm travel remove the lowers, remove the 10mm alloy travel limiter from the negative air plate and reinstall the air spring. As you inflate the fork make sure you cycle it as you fill it as the fork will try to raise to 160mm travel. However once the negative air spring pressure is equalised with the positive the fork will settle at 150mm travel.

I myself have my fork set to 180mm travel, with the transfer rod set to 170mm travel setting and no rubber bump stop in the air spring. I have ran it like this for ages and its been spot on and the fork is transformed. Its very similar to what Vorsprung do to the Pike.


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## ptd (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok thanks for the clarification.
I would guess you could extend the fork by force after its settled, is that the case in reality?


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## QuickSilverZ (Oct 23, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation Rick. I am going to try this out on my fork before my next ride. I'll be sure to report back with how it feels. May be a few days though, been getting some rain out here for once.


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

Thanks Rick, your explanation was very clear. I just finished the modification to my 170 RC2. I'm in the same boat as QuicksilverZ, i'm also in SoCal and it's raining, so I'll report back when I can get a ride in.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

danny.mendes said:


> Thanks Rick, your explanation was very clear. I just finished the modification to my 170 RC2. I'm in the same boat as QuicksilverZ, i'm also in SoCal and it's raining, so I'll report back when I can get a ride in.


I'm trying to comprehend this, but I must be having a brain fart. So if you have a 170mm fork and the fork is set at 170, what needs to be removed from the air spring to increase the neg chamber? Where you located in CA? Want to do my fork? ;p


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

justin83 said:


> I'm trying to comprehend this, but I must be having a brain fart. So if you have a 170mm fork and the fork is set at 170, what needs to be removed from the air spring to increase the neg chamber? Where you located in CA? Want to do my fork? ;p


FORK- 2015-2016 36mm FLOAT Internally Adjusting Fork Travel | Bike Help Center | FOX

Follow that guide and assuming you have a 170mm fork, remove the "neg plate spacer" from the air shaft but LEAVE THE TRANSFER ROD in the 170mm setting.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> FORK- 2015-2016 36mm FLOAT Internally Adjusting Fork Travel | Bike Help Center | FOX
> 
> Follow that guide and assuming you have a 170mm fork, remove the "neg plate spacer" from the air shaft but LEAVE THE TRANSFER ROD in the 170mm setting.


got it. so this won't change the travel of my fork? i should still be at 170? confused on how removing the plate spacer doesn't change my travel lol


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

justin83 said:


> got it. so this won't change the travel of my fork? i should still be at 170? confused on how removing the plate spacer doesn't change my travel lol


The position of the transfer shaft sets the travel and you will have a pneumatic top out instead of a mechanical one. Basically once the negative and positive chambers are equalised unless you physically stretch the fork to full extension then there is no way it will extend fully as the negative air pressure prevents it happening.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Oh I also use a little float fluid in the positive air chamber to see the fork supple for longer. It always returns to the quad ring so its keeps it plusher for longer.


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> The position of the transfer shaft sets the travel and you will have a pneumatic top out instead of a mechanical one. Basically once the negative and positive chambers are equalised unless you physically stretch the fork to full extension then there is no way it will extend fully as the negative air pressure prevents it happening.


So if I have a 180 fork set at 160, I can take the plate spacers (2 of them in my case) out and it will do what you are saying?


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

justin83 said:


> I'm trying to comprehend this, but I must be having a brain fart. So if you have a 170mm fork and the fork is set at 170, what needs to be removed from the air spring to increase the neg chamber? Where you located in CA? Want to do my fork? ;p


I live in Ontario CA. If you are close, I'll be glad to do your fork. Shoot me a PM if you are.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

mrgto said:


> So if I have a 180 fork set at 160, I can take the plate spacers (2 of them in my case) out and it will do what you are saying?


I have done that before and it makes it even more plush off the top. You have to be careful when filling the fork though as initially the transfer shaft is not located in the air piston and it does require a little fiddling to get the chambers to balance. Once filled though its all spot on.


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> I have done that before and it makes it even more plush off the top. You have to be careful when filling the fork though as initially the transfer shaft is not located in the air piston and it does require a little fiddling to get the chambers to balance. Once filled though its all spot on.


Roger that. I think I can figure it out. Thanks!


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

danny.mendes said:


> I live in Ontario CA. If you are close, I'll be glad to do your fork. Shoot me a PM if you are.


I think I can get it off Rick's instructions. Have you had a chance to ride with your fork set? Are you liking it?


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> The position of the transfer shaft sets the travel and you will have a pneumatic top out instead of a mechanical one. Basically once the negative and positive chambers are equalised unless you physically stretch the fork to full extension then there is no way it will extend fully as the negative air pressure prevents it happening.


one more question on this regarding the top out. is it possible for the fork to extend too quickly/too far in to the top out and possibly start bleeding air out and extending the fork travel further?


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

justin83 said:


> I think I can get it off Rick's instructions. Have you had a chance to ride with your fork set? Are you liking it?


Not yet. Between the lousy weather and work, I haven't had time.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

justin83 said:


> one more question on this regarding the top out. is it possible for the fork to extend too quickly/too far in to the top out and possibly start bleeding air out and extending the fork travel further?


I have never had any issues with this at all.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Sounds like he's asking how many of those 10mm screw positions until the rod could be too short to reach the port @ full extension (no spacers installed)


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

10mm and the rod will stay in place. 20mm and the rod can come out. However you can run it like that as once the negative pressure is set it won't extend further than the transfer rod dimple.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

i plan on doing this tonight. just need to find a tool i can use to grab the holes in that lower piston to unscrew the assembly.


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## titusquasi (Jan 5, 2006)

Rick Draper said:


> 10mm and the rod will stay in place. 20mm and the rod can come out. However you can run it like that as once the negative pressure is set it won't extend further than the transfer rod dimple.


I have a 160mm 29er fork and don't have the option to run negative spacers in a longer orientation. Do you have any suggestions for this situation? Can you just remove the bottom spacer of the negative chamber that has that taper that sits on the retaining clip. This would mean that the bottom seal of the negative chamber would have to sit on the retaining clip. Is this a possibility?


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

Jesus Christ. Did you guys have a hell of a time getting the negative plate and the spacer to separate?? I've bent 2 Allen wrenches ripping on this thing and it hasn't even budged.


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

justin83 said:


> Jesus Christ. Did you guys have a hell of a time getting the negative plate and the spacer to separate?? I've bent 2 Allen wrenches ripping on this thing and it hasn't even budged.


Mine was pretty tight. I do have a spanner wrench and a good quality Phillips screwdriver that fits the spacer holes and doesn't bend much. I held the spacer with in a vise. With the right tools it makes it pretty easy.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

Finally got it! Initial thoughts, there is next to no breakaway stiction. I feel like I can breathe on the handlebars and the fork starts moving. Hopefully this will transfer over to better small bump out on the trail and my hands will feel better. Will post back after I ride this weekend.


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

It's going to be cold and snowy here this weekend. This fix is on my to do list for the weekend


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## Btownrider (Aug 24, 2013)

can this be done to a 160 max fork? my small bump sensitivity is awful, even with the Avy cartridge


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Btownrider said:


> can this be done to a 160 max fork? my small bump sensitivity is awful, even with the Avy cartridge


If you have access to a machine shop you can make a new negative plate tube thats 10mm shorter. Or if you want the easier route you can order a new air spring for the 170mm fork 820-02-324.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

titusquasi said:


> I have a 160mm 29er fork and don't have the option to run negative spacers in a longer orientation. Do you have any suggestions for this situation? Can you just remove the bottom spacer of the negative chamber that has that taper that sits on the retaining clip. This would mean that the bottom seal of the negative chamber would have to sit on the retaining clip. Is this a possibility?


No you cannot do that, I guess you could use a 170mm air spring from a 27.5 fork and it should work.


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

Well I finally got a ride in today after doing the negative spring mod that Rick explained a few posts ago. I have to say it definitely helped with small bump sensitivity. Front end felt more planted :thumbsup:.
Hey Rick, I didn't have any Float fluid when I did the mod and I ended up adding 5cc of Fox Gold fork oil in the positive air chamber (that's all I had). Would Float fluid work better?


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

For those who find your Fox 36 to be harsh how many rebound clicks do you run? Or to rephrase do you run fast or slow rebound? 

What is strange to me is that the tunning guide from Fox has a range of 0-9+ clicks suggesting 5 for my weight / psi combo but in reality my 2017 Fox 36 has 24 clicks which means that with the suggested 5 clicks the fork would be most probably very slow and packing down resulting to a much harsher ride.

Also are there any guidelines from Fox regarding reducing the psi for every volume spacer that you add? For example RS suggests removing 5 psi for every token added so what I have done in my Pike was to to add 3 spacers, reduce the psi by 15 and run a faster rebound that overall resulted in a much more active fork with good small bump sensitivity, middle stroke support and bottom out resistance.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

First ride after running the rebound much faster and the fork was so much better. I will test again but I think that my Fox 36 easily outperforms my Pike.


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

gpgalanis said:


> For those who find your Fox 36 to be harsh how many rebound clicks do you run? Or to rephrase do you run fast or slow rebound?
> 
> What is strange to me is that the tunning guide from Fox has a range of 0-9+ clicks suggesting 5 for my weight / psi combo but in reality my 2017 Fox 36 has 24 clicks which means that with the suggested 5 clicks the fork would be most probably very slow and packing down resulting to a much harsher ride.
> 
> Also are there any guidelines from Fox regarding reducing the psi for every volume spacer that you add? For example RS suggests removing 5 psi for every token added so what I have done in my Pike was to to add 3 spacers, reduce the psi by 15 and run a faster rebound that overall resulted in a much more active fork with good small bump sensitivity, middle stroke support and bottom out resistance.


The Fox tuning guide on rebound is kind of worthless. I am a light rider (145 geared up) running 45 psi and I am at 19 clicks out from closed. I guess that's 9+ according to the guide, lol.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Yes. I totally agree.


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## tadmcmichael (Mar 19, 2012)

Rick Draper said:


> FORK- 2015-2016 36mm FLOAT Internally Adjusting Fork Travel | Bike Help Center | FOX
> 
> Follow that guide and assuming you have a 170mm fork, remove the "neg plate spacer" from the air shaft but LEAVE THE TRANSFER ROD in the 170mm setting.


Will this same thing work with a Float 34? It's currently at 150mm. Do I need to buy anything or just follow the same procedure you describe?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Without the rubber topout bumper, have you ever had a harsh topout? Or is the larger negative volume still enough to prevent topout?


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

92SE-R said:


> Without the rubber topout bumper, have you ever had a harsh topout? Or is the larger negative volume still enough to prevent topout?


I've done four rides with the negative spring mod and no harsh top out.


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

tadmcmichael said:


> Will this same thing work with a Float 34? It's currently at 150mm. Do I need to buy anything or just follow the same procedure you describe?


Rick can correct me if I'm wrong, but it won't work on a 34. The 34 does not use an adjustable transfer rod to equalize the two chambers. The transfer port is part of the stanchion and not adjustable.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

i've only done a couple rides with this mod, but i don't have any hard top out either. still not super impressed with this fork like others are here. for hard charging really chunky sections, this fork is good. as far as smoothing out all of the little nuisances on the trail, there are better options out there.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Justin, what are your settings again


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

92SE-R said:


> Justin, what are your settings again


i have the retarded 2017 fit4 with the 3 position compression
27ish% sag with 2 blue spacers, 83psi
4-5 clicks in on compression
5-6 clicks out on rebound


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I noticed an improvement running a lot more rebound than I'm used to. One of the techs recommended this was how he had his setup. Unfortunately you cant adjust hsc. It was nice for me to have some low speed support but back out high speed and my setup is close now. Have you tried removing spacers?


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

i tried riding with no spacers and i didn't like it. with my sag set and no spacers, the fork dove too much. tried to compensate with compression and it just rode shitty.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Try some more rebound. I'm a lot lighter than you and running 6 clicks out. Also try running less compression. How much travel are you using?


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

titusquasi said:


> I have a 160mm 29er fork and don't have the option to run negative spacers in a longer orientation. Do you have any suggestions for this situation? Can you just remove the bottom spacer of the negative chamber that has that taper that sits on the retaining clip. This would mean that the bottom seal of the negative chamber would have to sit on the retaining clip. Is this a possibility?


Why not just go 150mm? Set up the transfer rod to 150mm with no travel spacer (160mm setting)

Edit* nevermind, was still thinking of the 180mm air spring version


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*29" 36*

A2C @ 160 vs 150mm on those has a bit more deflection/flex...neg chamber feels too small @160 imho


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

on the hardest hit i've been able to take on it, i've got about 15mm left. which is about where i want it. i want that last little bit to be for like extreme situations. i feel like with slower rebound it's just packing up especially over braking bumps or washboards, but i'll give it a shot. and 4-5 clicks in on compression is barely anything. from there it's like do i just run it wide open? lol


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## goride4 (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm about 190 lbs. Here is what I run with two tokens 
36 fork rc2 170mm
70 psi
13 hs from open
12 ls from open
7 rebound from open


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Can i ask you guys that are not happy with your fork what head angle your bike has and are you running on aluminium or carbon wheels.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Carbon wheels, 66 head angle


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

92SE-R said:


> Carbon wheels, 66 head angle


Thanks. Anyone else?
Also, What tyre pressure are you running up front?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

23-24psi


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

After trying every setting possible with the fork and after having Fox team inspect it thoroughly and service it I'm starting to question bike geometry combined with carbon wheels. I have read that carbon wheels are much stiffer resulting in a more harsh feel at the bars. I also believe that the steeper the head angle is, the more a fork will be affected by stichion. (due to an increased bending moment)
The forks feel smooth when compressed independently and they got great reviews but like me others find them harsh on non-aggressive sections of trail.
Could the geometry and rims be the difference?
I too am riding carbon rims and have a steep head angle.(65.5°)
I would like to know what others are riding.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I don't buy the carbon wheels flex has anything to do with it when you have over an inch of flex in tires. I've noticed drastic changes in how it feels from the adjustments. That tells me that's the root of the problem. My last mod I need to do is the negative air spring mod. I believe I'm getting close. 

Justin83, I personally don't like setting suspension by sag because head angle, forward/rear bias seems to cause too many variables. Have you tried lowering air pressure and doing it by feel? Also try the compression backed out, mine has plenty of support. 4 clicks of hsc seemed to make a big difference. Fortunately I could dial in a few clicks of lsc. In your case you can't. Do u know if your compression dial is tied to both lsc and hsc?


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

95 kg
Fox 36 160 Grip 2017
1 spacer
80 psi
Fast rebound (I don't remember how many clicks)
Open compression
Plus tires 3.0 (13 psi front - 15 back)
66.5 head angle

Really happy with the fork!


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

gpgalanis said:


> 95 kg
> Fox 36 160 Grip 2017
> 1 spacer
> 80 psi
> ...


Wheels?


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

92SE-R said:


> I don't buy the carbon wheels flex has anything to do with it when you have over an inch of flex in tires. I've noticed drastic changes in how it feels from the adjustments. That tells me that's the root of the problem. My last mod I need to do is the negative air spring


You may be right but it's worth investigating. I've felt most improvement by lowering pressure to18psi. I'm going to go lower just to see. I will consider negative spring mod when I've run out of setup options.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

lowering psi to compensate for stiff wheels


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

92se-r
What are your settings at now?


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Glenn 10 said:


> Wheels?


Aluminium. 40mm internal width. In my opinion the secret is to use spacers, lower the psi a bit and have faster rebound. This worked both in my previous Pike and in my 36.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

gpgalanis said:


> Aluminium. 40mm internal width. In my opinion the secret is to use spacers, lower the psi a bit and have faster rebound. This worked both in my previous Pike and in my 36.


Thanks. I've tried every variation at this stage.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Got a chance to look down at the fork today while on a wide trail. The fork simply does not compress at all going over small rocks. It just bounces off them.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

This video shows what I think may be happening to the fork on trail chatter.


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## Btownrider (Aug 24, 2013)

Glenn 10 said:


> This video shows what I think may be happening to the fork on trail chatter.


THIS!! Thats exactly the way I feel about my fork. It doesn't move on small trail chatter. it just bumps my handlebars up. This is with an Avy damper also, so I know it's a shitty air spring design. My pike feels way more plush on regular trail riding.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Justin, I was playing around with the negative spring tonight and remembered your post. Holy crap man, 27% sag. You need to run more air pressure. I bet it feels like a jackhammer because you are hitting the hard ramp up of the air spring. Especially now that your negative volume is larger, you need to run more air pressure because the spring curve is more linear


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

18psi? No way. I'm nervous at the pressure I'm at now. With the rocks here, my wheels wouldn't last a ride and it feels too squirmy.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

8 clicks out for rebound. 53 psi. 4 clicks in of lsc. 0 clicks of hsc. Feels almost there. Small bump is ok, I feel like it could be better. I plan on bumping up to 160mm soon so the negative spacer mod will not work. I might have to have a talk with my machinist buddy.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Glenn 10 said:


> This video shows what I think may be happening to the fork on trail chatter.


I think that your rebound is really slow. Maybe I am wrong. If you have set it based on the Fox tuning guide then the rebound clicks are completely wrong since the suggested clicks from closed for me were 5 for 80psi of a total of 22 clicks if I remember correctly.

As a result of this the fork was really slow to return and felt almost dead so I have moved from 5 to 15 (again if i remember correctly) and the fork completely transformed.

And this is a common thing in many of the forks that I have owned because in order to have good small bump sensitivity and mid stroke support without bottoming out I use volume spacers, reduce the psi (around 5 psi for every spacer), leave the compression open and speed up the rebound.

In my 2017 36 Grip I have done the above and I am quite happy but I plan to add an extra spacer (or two) in order to experiment a bit more.

PS. A friend of mine has just received a new Fox 2017 Kashima so I will set it up for him and report back in case there are some differences vs mine.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

I'll try bumping up air pressures. 25% sag?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Try 20%. And how many spacers are you using again?


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

92SE-R said:


> Try 20%. And how many spacers are you using again?


2 blue spacers


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

With more air pressure, you can probably go down to 1 spacer too and still have the support you need.


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## epicxcrider123 (Nov 28, 2008)

Glenn 10 said:


> Got a chance to look down at the fork today while on a wide trail. The fork simply does not compress at all going over small rocks. It just bounces off them.


I had this exact same problem on my fork, felt great hitting big features and bumps at high speed but when going slow or on small hits it deflected. Basically felt like lots of stiction.

I took the fork apart and noticed that the bushing on the negative air spring plate seemed to be causing this problem. I'd rebuild the fork with grease as recommended and it would solve the problem temporarily but would come back after a few rides.

My long term solution (has been working great for 8 months now) has been to add about 5cc 20 wt oil above the negative spring plate when I rebuild the fork. This keeps the bushing adequately lubricated and the fork feels perfect.


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## voob (Jan 14, 2011)

Here are some simple tips that would work for the 36

Race Prepping a Fox 40 - Pinkbike


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

voob said:


> Here are some simple tips that would work for the 36
> 
> Race Prepping a Fox 40 - Pinkbike


Resizing the bushing is a simple tip?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Pretty simple only $1100 tool


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## voob (Jan 14, 2011)

I guess for us simple riders bushing resizing means break in time for the bushings to be smooth.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Hi guys. When you measure your sag do you do it seated or in the attack position? I see that Fox suggests 15-20% sag and I find it too low for my liking since I usually run 25-30% with some spacers in it.

Do you know if there is a rule about how many psi should we remove per spacer? For example in Pike it is 5 psi per token.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Attack. With slack head angles and full suspension, you'd be lucky to get 5% sag sitting


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Attack


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

I also measure it in attack position but 20% is way too low for me not only for the 36 but also for all my previous forks


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## Btownrider (Aug 24, 2013)

epicxcrider123 said:


> I had this exact same problem on my fork, felt great hitting big features and bumps at high speed but when going slow or on small hits it deflected. Basically felt like lots of stiction.
> 
> I took the fork apart and noticed that the bushing on the negative air spring plate seemed to be causing this problem. I'd rebuild the fork with grease as recommended and it would solve the problem temporarily but would come back after a few rides.
> 
> ...


Rebuilt my fork over the weekend. got a chance for a very quick ride (f*&king snow). felt noticeably better and more sensitive. Will give full report when I can get out and spend more time on it. Thanks epicxcrider123


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

epicxcrider123 said:


> I had this exact same problem on my fork, felt great hitting big features and bumps at high speed but when going slow or on small hits it deflected. Basically felt like lots of stiction.
> 
> I took the fork apart and noticed that the bushing on the negative air spring plate seemed to be causing this problem. I'd rebuild the fork with grease as recommended and it would solve the problem temporarily but would come back after a few rides.
> 
> ...


Hi epicrider
Thanks for to tip. Sounds like a good idea. I will definitely be giving it a go.


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## Grizzy (Sep 12, 2009)

Also check out pinkbike's fox 40 race prep vid. The section on tightening the axle changed my ride quality a bunch because apparently it can be tightened slightly askew causing stiction. 

So you tighten the axle first, then slightly compress the fork, tighten the left (disc) side pinch bolts, then compress the fork and tighten the right pinch bolts (im keeping it weighted while tightening). Doing this significantly increased my small bump compliance. Results may vary - but it works for me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

For the guys with maxed out travel fit4s I significantly improved small bump sensitivity while retaining mid strike support by installing an E16 shim kit ($15) and skf seals ($25). Greasing the bushing heavy really helps too.


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

How long are you guys running between Damper rebuilds "RC2"? I knock out my lowers monthly but have over 900km's on my fork & shock. 

Thinking my Cane creek CCDB needs to be done first. I'd love an avy damper but need to sell a kidney first.


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## Btownrider (Aug 24, 2013)

ttchad said:


> I'd love an avy damper but need to sell a kidney first.


I'm the first person to tell you to buy an Avy damper from Craig cause that is the best your fork will ever feel. Fork is unbelievable when you're pushing it hard, but you can't tune out the harshness at low speeds. I have one and it's awesome but it can't make up for a bad air spring design which is what the F36 is currently. There seem to be just too many places the seals get caught up. Fox knows the hangy rod is a bad design and am willing to bet the new 36 air spring will get rid of this and move towards how the 34 and RS line equalizes Neg spring.

On the same note, try the oil above the neg spring plate trick. Seemed to make it move a little more smoothly on the initial ride.


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

Btownrider said:


> I have one and it's awesome but it can't make up for a bad air spring design which is what the F36 is currently.
> 
> On the same note, try the oil above the neg spring plate trick. Seemed to make it move a little more smoothly on the initial ride.


I am kind off tempted to pick up an old Bos devill. I would have to worry about tire clearance but the idea of not having to send out the fork for maint would be nice. That was what originally led me to the AVY. Plus I miss my 2010 Lyrik/coil/avy fork. Besides being heavy it could do it all.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

I got my Fox 36 back from Fox. They inspected the fork but didn't find any obvious faults.They sized the bushings and rebuilt it using minimal grease. They recommend 80psi, two blue and one orange token, HSC 11clicks from fully closed, LSC 22 clicks from closed and 9 clicks rebound. (I'm around 90kg with gear on.)
The fork felt fantastic for about 3 hours but gradually became harsh again. 

This could mean that a correctly placed drop of oil such as epicxcrider123 suggested is all the fork needs to make it great.
I really hope that it doesn't mean that the fork is simply harsh.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

We have similar weight but I find 80 psi and 3 spacers too much.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

gpgalanis said:


> We have similar weight but I find 80 psi and 3 spacers too much.


At this stage I literally have tried every setting and spacer combination. I've had the fork around 9 months. You may be right but I think there is something aside from settings at fault her.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

I wonder if there is a link between spacers and psi. For example Rockshox suggests removing 5 psi for each token installed so if the same thing applied to Fox also then you should have 79 (based on Fox tuning guide) -15 psi.

For me usually the combination of tokens - lower psi - faster rebound seems to work quite well but sometimes if I am in bad shape everything is wrong.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

I think I'll give the oil in the negative chamber a go.


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## freddok (Aug 8, 2013)

@ gpgalanis : Any news or comparaison of the 2017 Fox 36 Kashima of your friend ?


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

I haven't ridden it yet but he seems to be quite happy with it. On the other side he is not that sophisticated when it comes to suspensions so it is difficult to get a solid feedback form him. Most probably when we meet again I will take his bike for a quick ride and I will compare it to my 2017 Performance.

What I know though is that despite the fact that he is around 98 kg without any gear he runs his 36 quite soft with 70 psi and 1 orange and I blue spacer and despite riding quite aggressively (without any jumps) he still doesn't bottom it.

The same thing also applies for me because in order to have good small sensitivity I have to run much lower psi than recommended (plus 2 spacers) and still don't bottom the fork. On the other hand I believe that the 36 really icomes alive when pushed hard so usually my impressions depend on my form rather than the actual fork performance. If I ride it like a log then it may feel harsh but if I keep my body active then it feels so much better.

Still I am not 100% happy so I will keep experimenting.


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## freddok (Aug 8, 2013)

gpgalanis said:


> I haven't ridden it yet but he seems to be quite happy with it. On the other side he is not that sophisticated when it comes to suspensions so it is difficult to get a solid feedback form him. Most probably when we meet again I will take his bike for a quick ride and I will compare it to my 2017 Performance.


Maybe your friend is Konstantinos P ?


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Yes. That's him!


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## freddok (Aug 8, 2013)

gpgalanis said:


> Yes. That's him!


:thumbsup: I'm the seller... The world is small...


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Yes it is. And for what is worth the fork arrived in perfect condition!

Why did you sell it if I may ask?


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## freddok (Aug 8, 2013)

gpgalanis said:


> Yes it is. And for what is worth the fork arrived in perfect condition!
> 
> Why did you sell it if I may ask?


I try to sell and ship parts in good (or perfect) conditions and I'm happy when the buyer is... happy. (like Santa Claus...) 

I buy it for my next bike project, but since, changed of frame (and fork)wish ...


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

gpgalanis said:


> We have similar weight but I find 80 psi and 3 spacers too much.


With the negative spring mods I'm now running 3 orange and one blue and 85 psi and its spot on. Either float fluid or gold on the top of the negative air plate and also on top of the air piston.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Rick Draper said:


> With the negative spring mods I'm now running 3 orange and one blue and 85 psi and its spot on. Either float fluid or gold on the top of the negative air plate and also on top of the air piston.


How does the fork feel?Are you completely happy with it now?
Does four tokens fit on the transfer rod?


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Today I tested a slightly different setup and I have to admit that it worked quite well.

89kg without gear
Fox 36 Performance
70 psi 
25 sag in attack position
12/22 rebound clicks from full closed

The ride wasn't buttery smooth but the fork performed really well with good support and control in a rather rocky terrain. Potentially I could lower the psi a little bit more to make it more supple but then together with my Float X I am afraid that the ride will be too mushy.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

epicxcrider123 said:


> I had this exact same problem on my fork, felt great hitting big features and bumps at high speed but when going slow or on small hits it deflected. Basically felt like lots of stiction.
> 
> I took the fork apart and noticed that the bushing on the negative air spring plate seemed to be causing this problem. I'd rebuild the fork with grease as recommended and it would solve the problem temporarily but would come back after a few rides.
> 
> ...


I think your on to something here. I have 4 hours of riding done with 20wt oil in the negative chamber and the fork feels much more compliant on the small stuff. 
Anyone with a harshness issue give this a go.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

For anyone trying this I would also recommend storing the bike upside down regularly.


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

*36 lower casting*

I have heard of casting issues on the lowers for 2015 &2016 issues. Has anybody else seen this issue?


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## HoJo (Jan 26, 2004)

Warning for those considering adding oil to the negative or positive air chambers to improve you initial stiction. Any oil added to the positive air chamber is likely to migrate into the 
neg chamber as you ride. The result is a reduction of the neg air chamber volume which in theory increases initial stiction and if you add too much fluid or oil it will cause suck down on your fork. I did a test, added oil to the Pos chamber when for a few rides, then took the air spring apart and all the oil migrated to the neg chamber. Left some oil in neg chamber and added less than 5cc to the pos chamber. 15 min into ride my fork was down to 80mm of travel, on strip down all the oil was in the neg chamber.
I'm back to Slick Honey as my air spring lube, it doesn't migrate. Fork rides great.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

I concur. Oil ends up in the negative chamber after a short space of time. After around 8 hours riding I feel the fork is slowly heading back to its old tricks. Oil in the negative chamber is much less useful.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

It should be noted that the fork had been excellent up to eight hours.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

*Fixed it!*

FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT!

It was a long rainy winter here in Socal so I had some time to do some maintenance on the bike. I decided to tear apart the Fox 36, even though it had been just rebuilt from Fox. I was still getting the harshness and wanted to try the negative volume spacer trick.

However, this doesn't work if you run 160mm, so I decided to design a new air seal piston which expanded the negative air spring volume at any travel setting. While playing around with different seal heights, I had a typo on my drawing and the machinist machined the diameter where the seal sits on the piston 0.005" too large in diameter. HOLY CRAP. STICTION CITY. Just hand cycling the air rod by hand I had a hard time. I couldn't believe how bad it was just from a 0.005" oversize.

This got me thinking. The plastic air piston I wonder if they had crappy tolerances from the factory. This could be from something as simple as accelerated tool wear when machining plastic. In the past, I have seen issues machining plastic because it does not heatsink well, it runs the cutting tool extremely hot say when compared to machining aluminum. This can cause accelerated wear on the cutting tool and now you aren't cutting the plastic air piston as much as you think you are.

I decided to machine the new air piston 0.005" smaller in diameter where the seal sits. This affects how much compression the seal has when inserted inside the stantion. This has an incredible impact on stiction. It was night and day. I believe this is the root cause of why some people love their Fox36's, and some people like me have had a terrible experience. It is a tolerance issue, not a design issue. That is why guys trying to just run larger negative volume only have a marginal change on the feel. The vast majority of the stiction is from this air piston being too large.

For the guys running way lower pressure than they should be to compensate for this stiction, it still feels crappy because now it dives too deep into the travel, hitting the steep part of the ramp up in the air spring curve. Trying to add volume spacers only exasperates the problem. With the new air piston, I increased negative air spring volume and solved the issue of too much air seal compression against the stantion. At the same time, it also decreases positive air spring volume. I did this because I do not know of a single person running no spacers on their Fox36.

The results? I've only had a few rides on this new air piston, but holy crap, now I understand why people love this fork. I am running over 5psi more air than I was before. The fork has amazing support, and moves by barely touching it, even with more air pressure. Small rocks where my front end would skip on now actually make the fork move. I've had to start over with all my settings because of how drastic of a change this was. I might even run more air pressure because it feels so good. I took out the one blue spacer I was using as well.

















Also, Maxima Assembly lube is mixed with the Slick Honey on the negative air spring bushing and on the main air seal. Works like a charm.

The black piece is the original air piston. Bottom right is the new air piston. Bottom left is the travel spacer some have removed to try to increase negative air spring volume.

















New air piston installed

















Comparison of the original plastic air piston versus the new air piston. Notice the larger negative air spring volume and smaller positive air spring volume.

















Comparison of the volume the travel spacer mod adds to the negative spring, and how much volume the new air spring adds.

Feel free to ask any questions. I'm totally stoked how well this worked out. It's only taken me over a year of messing with it. It's nice to have a fork that actually works as well as advertised.


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

This is REALLY common actually. It's not even plastic sealheads either. I recall rebuilding an old Avalanche shock (remote reservoir version) which has an aluminum sealhead. The rod action in the sealhead outside of the shock was nice and free, the piston action inside the shock body was nice and free, but once you installed the sealhead, drag city. I even removed the piston from the shaft to verify that it was just that interface encountering the change (no possibility of bent shaft). It had enough drag where it was audible. Damping backed out completely in both directions and still harsh as hell.

Common in moto shocks and in certain fork cartridges too. It's ridiculous at times how fragile some of these things can be.


It's nothing short of an absolute insult that these forks and shocks have been through more than a decade of development and refinement, and the big manufacturers charge over $1k/fork for this kind of garbage and can't even be bothered to address this during servicing either. How's it feel paying for the privilege of doing R&D for Fox now? You really should be sending Fox a bill for your time.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Yeah I'm not too happy about it. However, I got a killer deal on the fork and I'm just happy it wasn't too ridiculous in terms of time and money for me to finally figure it out. Way cheaper than Push or Avalanche and still not fixing the issue. My machinist is holding like less than 0.0005" tolerance, so its solid.



GH28 said:


> This is REALLY common actually. It's not even plastic sealheads either. I recall rebuilding an old Avalanche shock (remote reservoir version) which has an aluminum sealhead. The rod action in the sealhead outside of the shock was nice and free, the piston action inside the shock body was nice and free, but once you installed the sealhead, drag city. I even removed the piston from the shaft to verify that it was just that interface encountering the change (no possibility of bent shaft). It had enough drag where it was audible. Damping backed out completely in both directions and still harsh as hell.
> 
> Common in moto shocks and in certain fork cartridges too. It's ridiculous at times how fragile some of these things can be.
> 
> It's nothing short of an absolute insult that these forks and shocks have been through more than a decade of development and refinement, and the big manufacturers charge over $1k/fork for this kind of garbage and can't even be bothered to address this during servicing either. How's it feel paying for the privilege of doing R&D for Fox now? You really should be sending Fox a bill for your time.


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

92SE-R said:


> Yeah I'm not too happy about it. However, I got a killer deal on the fork and I'm just happy it wasn't too ridiculous in terms of time and money for me to finally figure it out. Way cheaper than Push or Avalanche and still not fixing the issue. My machinist is holding like less than 0.00005" tolerance, so its solid.


Your machinist is holding less than a micron tolerance on a turned surface in a groove on aluminum? Send me his number. I'll hire him and his equipment right away if that's the case.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Lol i spazzed on the 0. I meant half a mil. 0.0005"


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

92SE-R said:


> Lol i spazzed on the 0. I meant half a mil. 0.0005"


That's a little more realistic!

I used to work for a company designing and building (what I think were) the highest precision CNC lathes in the world for precision optics. Fairly basic tools, but the motion works on air bearing spindles and slides. <1um is considered in good working condition for those and a couple steps of precision beyond that of a standard lathe. These were built for certain types of plastic and glass though - not the best for aluminum/steel.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Badass. I had to unretire my solidworks skills for this project. It was fun.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Nice work 92SE-R.
Your solution/ makes sense and sounds very promising. Will you keep us posted on performance over time?
What diameter are you using for the air seal?
We need to be careful here because metric and imperial measurements are being quoted on this forum.


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## hitechredneck (May 9, 2009)

92SE-R said:


> Lol i spazzed on the 0. I meant half a mil. 0.0005"


Plus or minus 5 tenths is not a super tight tolerance to keep on smaller production runs we do it daily(I'm a machinist). However this gets VERY expensive quickly for larger production run parts. The scrap rate goes through the roof. Tooling cost can get out of hand. Plus labor cost go up. You cannot have a lower wage factory worker run those parts with any real amount of confidence. So sadly now your $1100 for turned into a $1120 fork. Do that over the course of every part in the fork and now things get really expensive. I'm glad you got your problem solved, hopefully fox can address the issue in the future so people do not have to deal with that. I must have been lucky, my 36 feels great!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Will do. Ive had a few rides on it, and keep making adjustments. It is like a totally different fork. The seal itself is a 1" seal. The tolerance numbers i am talking about dont matter if its metric or imperial. End result is the same. Also, i think the machinists here prefer imperial, , their dials are all in imperial.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

I've noticed this fork is very sensitive to temperature changes. In areas that have daily temps that fluctuate 20-30 degrees this can be a little bit of an annoyance. It performs better above 70 degrees. I do think flipping the fork helps. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

DrDon said:


> I've noticed this fork is very sensitive to temperature changes. In areas that have daily temps that fluctuate 20-30 degrees this can be a little bit of an annoyance. It performs better above 70 degrees. I do think flipping the fork helps.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


If you are using fox gold for the bath oil, that could be the culprit. Anything below 50 degrees causes the oil to become very thick and really problematic. Above that and anywhere near 70 the stuff is magic.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Very cool man! Nice job. The issue I've had with mine is the fork is getting air in the positive chambers over time, so the fork gets stiffer over time and won't use full travel. This is verified by letting all of the air out while compressing the fork and the fork won't fully stay fully compressed, because there is air trapped inside. It will rise back up a couple inches, (my 36 for 26" and has 180mm with no spacers). I've temporarily remedied this by letting out the trapped air from time to time by slipping a small zip tie under the seal, on both sides. You can hear the air release and then the fork will stay fully compressed. The fork then feels great for about 10 rides or so, then stiffens back up again. The fork was serviced under warranty 2 times because of this and the second time, they replaced the air seal with an updated one. It was an improvement, but it still happens, just not as quickly. Any tips or ideas for a permanent fix?:???:


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

Bike parts are designed in metric for production in Taiwan. Domestic machining is basically all done in imperial.

The other thing you HAVE to watch out for when designing a sealhead like that is to try and get the center bushing/seal seats machined on the same setup as the outer interface. This gives a much better control over the rod centering versus the inside of the stanchion. If that's off by even a little bit - binding city.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> If you are using fox gold for the bath oil, that could be the culprit. Anything below 50 degrees causes the oil to become very thick and really problematic. Above that and anywhere near 70 the stuff is magic.


That's good to know. What should be used during colder temps?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Sure, but if they spec a 1" seal, theyre converting imperial to metric.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I would check to see if the lower oring is ripped from the last time you had it apart.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

92SE-R said:


> FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT!
> 
> It was a long rainy winter here in Socal so I had some time to do some maintenance on the bike. I decided to tear apart the Fox 36, even though it had been just rebuilt from Fox. I was still getting the harshness and wanted to try the negative volume spacer trick.
> 
> ...


I think you are constantly mistaking the air piston with the air sealhead. The sealhead seals the end of the stanchion where the air shaft exits.

Did you design the gland on the air piston to utilize backup rings? If not, I would advise you to redesign it right away because without a soft bearing/sliding surface it could scratch the inside of the stanchion and also cause wear on the air piston. That's why you either use a plastic piston (like Fox and almost all RS air forks) or backup rings (like Vorsprung Luftkappe, Boxxer WC air piston etc.) to stop metal-to-metal contact.

Other than that, kudos for making your own mod!


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Good catch. This was already in the plans. This aluminum piece was just a prototype. The run I am doing will be plastic.


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## cws196 (Apr 12, 2010)

Many interesting posts, thanks!

I have a 2015 34 which has been converted to the 36 style air-spring. I've never found the fork overly sensitive to smaller hits and reading through various posts, they mirror my experiences. Sometimes it is as if the fork has initial stiction and also is pumping-up (like on Pike).

I'm interested in the option of increasing the Neg. volume on the air-spring - the fork is currently in 150mm config. with 1 alu neg. spacer fitted (can go up to a max of 160mm). To increase the Neg. volume am I correct in thinking I remove the single alu. Neg chamber spacer BUT leave the Positive shaft set-screw as is i.e. in the 150mm position?

Also thinking of adding around 3cc of FLOAT fluid to the Positive chamber as well (never made sense to me to only run slick-honey).


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## bonusheft (Jun 15, 2007)

Quite happy to find this thread right now. As there might be similar issues with my 2017 36 Float Performance FIT4. 
I just had a closer look at my fork because I find it some sort of harsh on rocky sections. Already tried various settings of air pressure and extremely slow and very fast rebound. So I removed the lower legs and the top cap on the air side.
When I am moving the air rod by hand it feels like running smooth on slow movements. But when moving faster something in the stanchion seems to cause friction and it feels as if the seal head is rubbing in the stanchion. Although there is plenty of that slick honey. 
What do you think? Is this sort of behavior normal or maybe related to the tolerances described by 92SE-R?


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

Shredman69 said:


> Very cool man! Nice job. The issue I've had with mine is the fork is getting air in the positive chambers over time, so the fork gets stiffer over time and won't use full travel. This is verified by letting all of the air out while compressing the fork and the fork won't fully stay fully compressed, because there is air trapped inside. It will rise back up a couple inches, (my 36 for 26" and has 180mm with no spacers). I've temporarily remedied this by letting out the trapped air from time to time by slipping a small zip tie under the seal, on both sides. You can hear the air release and then the fork will stay fully compressed. The fork then feels great for about 10 rides or so, then stiffens back up again. The fork was serviced under warranty 2 times because of this and the second time, they replaced the air seal with an updated one. It was an improvement, but it still happens, just not as quickly. Any tips or ideas for a permanent fix?:???:


there is no fix for this. this is just a trait of suspension forks. turns out when you pump a sliding tube into another, you create pressure. motorcycle forks do the same thing which is why they have bleed screws in the top caps.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Yeah, they just need to be burped regularly, best to do it @ the footnut so ust seals don't let in the grit...also not sure if this has been mentioned yet, the spring inside the bulkhead is something that needs adjusting for those that use over 90psi (or if your rebound is mostly closed)


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

And quite a bit of aluminum dust/shavings inside the bladder from breaking in period has been normal in these. Definitely do the damper coupl'a times the 1st year


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

Great investigation and proto work 92SE-R

Seems like someone who doesn't want to do the neg. volume change could just take 0.05/0.1mm off of the original piston head (provided it was tight in the stanchion) and reap the benefits of a free running seal. Curious to see how tight mine is... Will check it out tonight and get back. However machining up a new piston head to increase neg volume is very enticing! 2017 EVOL Special Edition. 

Nice work guys.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Whats even more exciting is the MRP ramp control cartridge thats just been released for the 2015-17 36.

It removes the transfer rod and turns it into a air spring like the old RockShox dual air forks.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

ttchad said:


> I have heard of casting issues on the lowers for 2015 &2016 issues. Has anybody else seen this issue?
> View attachment 1125740


Can't quite see what's happening with your lowers but yes, I had an issue with my 2015 lowers when I had my fork Push upgraded. The guys at the shop tested the lowers for 'porosity' and found they were able to poke holes in them! They spoke to Fox who warranteed it (I was well past 1 year warranty) and they gave me new 2017 lowers.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Rick Draper said:


> Whats even more exciting is the MRP ramp control cartridge thats just been released for the 2015-17 36.
> 
> It removes the transfer rod and turns it into a air spring like the old RockShox dual air forks.


Yeah they're selling them now for $179. I also can't wait to see Push's coil upgrade.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Whered you guys hear about the Push coil upgrade?


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I can't find it for the life of me. It's in one of these threads in this forum. I'll keep looking. But there was a sneak peek sorta of a coil in a cutaway section of a fork tube. It looked legit and everyone was saying to keep an eye out at Sea Otter. 

I then emailed a local suspension shop that does Push tuning and they told me they couldn't confirm it, and to check out Push's stand at Sea Otter.


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## rnm410 (Mar 19, 2012)

Has anyone measured their stanchions before and after the negative air spring spacer mod?

Looking at these drawings I think you are doing more than increasing the negative spring air volume.

http://www.ridefox.com/img/help/page566-QPDbnx/2015 36 140-180mm FLOAT NA Air Spring Assysa.pdf

http://www.ridefox.com/img/help/page566-QPDbnx/2015 36 FLOAT NA Air Shaft Assembliesq.pdf


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

What do you mean?


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## rnm410 (Mar 19, 2012)

I see now... Disregard my previous post. 

What is the max difference in travel vs negative spacer removal before the transfer shaft doesn't set, or will pop out during a hard top out event?


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## Techspec360 (Jun 21, 2011)

Rick Draper said:


> It only works on say a 160mm fork if its set lower than 160mm or a 170mm fork set at 170mm or lower. If you run the format 180mm travel its not possible to make the negative air spring any bigger unless you remove the top out bumper.
> 
> You can however buy the 170/180mm air spring and fit it into the 160mm fork to allow you to adjust the negative air chamber.


For a 160mm set at 160mm, what if you added the 10mm neg air spacer (for 150mm) and shaved 10mm off the top out bumper?


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## Techspec360 (Jun 21, 2011)

tacubaya said:


> I think you are constantly mistaking the air piston with the air sealhead. The sealhead seals the end of the stanchion where the air shaft exits.
> 
> Did you design the gland on the air piston to utilize backup rings? If not, I would advise you to redesign it right away because without a soft bearing/sliding surface it could scratch the inside of the stanchion and also cause wear on the air piston. That's why you either use a plastic piston (like Fox and almost all RS air forks) or backup rings (like Vorsprung Luftkappe, Boxxer WC air piston etc.) to stop metal-to-metal contact.
> 
> Other than that, kudos for making your own mod!


That is a sick mod! Nice work. How did you determine how "much" positive chamber volume you wanted to displace with the height of the new air piston?


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

rnm410 said:


> I see now... Disregard my previous post.
> 
> What is the max difference in travel vs negative spacer removal before the transfer shaft doesn't set, or will pop out during a hard top out event?


I'm open to correction but it looks to me like the piston connects with the top out bumper at around the same point that it engages with the air transfer dimple ±5mm. The transfer dimple is 30mm from the end of the rod. So, lets say we have 25mm to play with. The next question is how much does the bumper compress on harsh top out?
If it only compresses 5mm (which I'm guessing is the case) you have 20mm left before the rod pops out. If you reduce the air spring head by 10mm thus increasing the negative spring chamber you are now left with 10mm before the rod pops out.
This is ok as long as the bumper never fails or is not forgotten after a service. The danger is that there is potential for the piston to over travel in this scenario or for any reason the bumper compresses more than expected.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Techspec360 said:


> For a 160mm set at 160mm, what if you added the 10mm neg air spacer (for 150mm) and shaved 10mm off the top out bumper?


This would reduce negative air spring volume. The mod is intended to increase it.


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## Techspec360 (Jun 21, 2011)

Glenn 10 said:


> This would reduce negative air spring volume. The mod is intended to increase it.


That's what I was thinking. Misunderstood what the others were saying. So In order to do this on a 160, a 170 air shaft used with the 10mm top out spacer and leaving the transfer rod at 160 would be what is needed?

What would shortening the transfer rod 10mm and leaving travel at 160mm do?? Seems like it would change the position of travel at which the chambers equalize, effectively allowing more initial travel that has the negative air pressure??


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## rnm410 (Mar 19, 2012)

Glenn 10 said:


> I'm open to correction but it looks to me like the piston connects with the top out bumper at around the same point that it engages with the air transfer dimple ±5mm. The transfer dimple is 30mm from the end of the rod. So, lets say we have 25mm to play with. The next question is how much does the bumper compress on harsh top out?
> If it only compresses 5mm (which I'm guessing is the case) you have 20mm left before the rod pops out. If you reduce the air spring head by 10mm thus increasing the negative spring chamber you are now left with 10mm before the rod pops out.
> This is ok as long as the bumper never fails or is not forgotten after a service. The danger is that there is potential for the piston to over travel in this scenario or for any reason the bumper compresses more than expected.


No need to correct, y'all are right. I haven't serviced my 36 yet so I do not have a feel for where the transfer shaft set's in at, nor have I found an assembled drawing. I might give this a try when I change the seals, running a 180 at 160 now, not opposed to going 170 with an added 10 mm of negative air volume, however many cc's that is... Going to try push seals too. I will comment that I've never felt my 36 was harsh, but any reduction in stiction for the first 1/4 of travel is welcome. Especially at $0.

Has anyone experimented with a Pike? Example, if I fill my 130mm pike to 130 psi, remove the pump, equalize the chambers, compress the fork with weight, use a tool to empty the positive chamber the fork will "suck down". If I refill to my riding pressure (60 psi) the previous 130mm fork is now at 100mm, meaning I've effectively increased the negative air chamber volume. Let's assume the fork can't rebound back to the solo air eq point at some distance (10/20...mm) Does anyone see this hack as non beneficial? This is to the same effect we are accomplishing here. I'm thinking I could run a 140 or 150 shaft and "suck it down" to 130.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

I have push seals ordered. I never owned a pike.


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## Techspec360 (Jun 21, 2011)

For those who've had these apart, for example on 160mm, wouldn't shortening the transfer rod 10mm (to 150mm) and leaving travel at 160mm do the same thing as those who are lengthening the travel (ie. taking out a 10mm spacer) but leaving the transfer rod set to previous? 

Seems like it would change the position of travel at which the chambers equalize due to the shorter transfer rod, resulting in 10mm more initial travel that has the negative spring air pressure working with it??


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Techspec360 said:


> For those who've had these apart, for example on 160mm, wouldn't shortening the transfer rod 10mm (to 150mm) and leaving travel at 160mm do the same thing as those who are lengthening the travel (ie. taking out a 10mm spacer) but leaving the transfer rod set to previous?
> 
> Seems like it would change the position of travel at which the chambers equalize due to the shorter transfer rod, resulting in 10mm more initial travel that has the negative spring air pressure working with it??


Just shortening the transfer rod would let the fork sit further into its stroke. 10mm more sag but has the ability to be extended to 160mm.
Shortening the air spring head/lengthening the travel will result in normal sag but with the ability to extend to 170mm.
In both cases there is a sort of 10mm buffer at the top out end of the stroke before the bump stop. 
I'm not sure if this is good or bad.


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## Techspec360 (Jun 21, 2011)

Glenn 10 said:


> Just shortening the transfer rod would let the fork sit further into its stroke. 10mm more sag but has the ability to be extended to 160mm.
> Shortening the air spring head/lengthening the travel will result in normal sag but with the ability to extend to 170mm.
> In both cases there is a sort of 10mm buffer at the top out end of the stroke before the bump stop.
> I'm not sure if this is good or bad.


Seems simple worth while try to maybe offset some of the small bump harshness that occurs early in the travel...


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

Techspec360 said:


> For those who've had these apart, for example on 160mm, wouldn't shortening the transfer rod 10mm (to 150mm) and leaving travel at 160mm do the same thing as those who are lengthening the travel (ie. taking out a 10mm spacer) but leaving the transfer rod set to previous?
> 
> Seems like it would change the position of travel at which the chambers equalize due to the shorter transfer rod, resulting in 10mm more initial travel that has the negative spring air pressure working with it??


I am running my 180mm 36 with the transfer rod set at 160mm and I removed all travel spacers AND the rubber bump stop. I have ran it this way for a couple of months now with no problems. I did make a difference in the small bump sensitivity. I am a light rider and I probably still need a custom tune on the damper because I run the High and Low speed wide open and it's still not right for me.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Just for you tacubaya.












tacubaya said:


> I think you are constantly mistaking the air piston with the air sealhead. The sealhead seals the end of the stanchion where the air shaft exits.
> 
> Did you design the gland on the air piston to utilize backup rings? If not, I would advise you to redesign it right away because without a soft bearing/sliding surface it could scratch the inside of the stanchion and also cause wear on the air piston. That's why you either use a plastic piston (like Fox and almost all RS air forks) or backup rings (like Vorsprung Luftkappe, Boxxer WC air piston etc.) to stop metal-to-metal contact.
> 
> Other than that, kudos for making your own mod!


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

danny.mendes said:


> I am running my 180mm 36 with the transfer rod set at 160mm and I removed all travel spacers AND the rubber bump stop. I have ran it this way for a couple of months now with no problems. I did make a difference in the small bump sensitivity. I am a light rider and I probably still need a custom tune on the damper because I run the High and Low speed wide open and it's still not right for me.


How much of the stanchion is exposed when the bike is standing without a rider on it?


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

Glenn 10 said:


> How much of the stanchion is exposed when the bike is standing without a rider on it?


160mm. The transfer rod position determines where the fork pressures equalize, which determines where the fork settles with no weight on it. This setup makes changing travel length easy, pull off top cap, adjust transfer rod length, reinstall top cap.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks. That confirms what I was thinking


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## hardboiled (Jun 10, 2006)

hey 92ser, half your pics aren't showing up, from your original post and the most recent update. great work, keep us updated on your results. 

I had issues with my 2016 36 and I thought the problem was the air spring too, but it came back from fox with new uppers, new bushings and a fresh service and felt great from then on. they didn't mention anything about the air piston or air spring assembly. wonder if the upper tube on the air spring side could have been out of spec, that could probably cause similar problems causing the main piston seal to have excessive drag. my 2017 36 has been amazing from day one.


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## slim2none (Jun 3, 2009)

hardboiled said:


> my 2017 36 has been amazing from day one.


I have a 2017 Fox 36 as well. Although I don't notice/have any major issues with it, I find my 3 year old Pike was much better in the first 1/3rd of travel. No doubt the Fox is stiffer and just tracks better.

I believe this is why Fox tried to improve the air-spring for 2018.


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## hardboiled (Jun 10, 2006)

slim2none said:


> I have a 2017 Fox 36 as well. Although I don't notice/have any major issues with it, I find my 3 year old Pike was much better in the first 1/3rd of travel. No doubt the Fox is stiffer and just tracks better.
> 
> I believe this is why Fox tried to improve the air-spring for 2018.


the air spring on the 34 line was updated last year with the air transfer dimple, so at least that aspect was an expected update for the 36. now they all get the larger EVOL negative spring volume. anyway, my 2017 36 feels head and shoulders better than any fork I've ever owned, much better than my 2014/2015 Pike was. my Pike needed the lowers and air spring serviced every 4 weeks to stay smooth. I only just got around to servicing my 36 after 4 months of wet weather riding and it didn't even need it, I just felt negligent going so long without checking it. that said, it is pretty clear there is still a lot of variability in QC for suspension components from all of the big players.


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## Techspec360 (Jun 21, 2011)

How much O-ring is remaining when you let all the air out and compress the fork fully?? I have about 7.7mm between o-ring and crown??? Stock 160mm no-mods.....any thoughts, normal??


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## Techspec360 (Jun 21, 2011)

Techspec360 said:


> How much O-ring is remaining when you let all the air out and compress the fork fully?? I have about 7.7mm between o-ring and crown??? Stock 160mm no-mods.....any thoughts, normal??


LOoks like it must be normal.....measures 160mm from seal to oring


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## bedell99 (Jan 5, 2007)

For $180 MRP now has ramp control and a tunable negative air spring. Pretty awesome. 

Erik


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

92SE-R said:


> Just for you tacubaya.


:thumbsup:


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Techspec360 said:


> LOoks like it must be normal.....measures 160mm from seal to oring


mine is like that too. Once you have 160mm of travel I presume it's normal.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

bedell99 said:


> For $180 MRP now has ramp control and a tunable negative air spring. Pretty awesome.
> 
> Erik


came here to post this. i will be ordering one this weekend!


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## rnm410 (Mar 19, 2012)

For you out there running this mod I have a question.

Say you have a 180mm Fox 36 fork, you keep stock settings without any negative plate spacers, but you mod the fork to 160mm by moving the transfer shaft up 20mm (2 holes). You now have increased the negative air volume by some area times 20mm, but the total fork travel is still 180mm. Statically (unweighted) the bike will sit at 160mm of fork travel and when you sag in, it will be 20-25% less. The top end and mid stroke feel better due to that increased negative volume. But what happens when the spring on rebound stroke pushes the fork to full extension? The transfer shaft will not be sealing (open air transfer between pos/neg chambers) when the fork is at 160-180mm. You've now created 20mm of travel that are unsprung but damped. How could this be a predictable, stable platform?

Please correct me if I am wrong to assume this scenario.

An easy test would be to pull up on the fork and look for movement if you have this mod done.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Personally thats why i never liked the spacer mod. 10mm is probably not an issue, but i was always concerned about transfer rod coming out of piston bolt hole.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

rnm410 said:


> For you out there running this mod I have a question.
> 
> Say you have a 180mm Fox 36 fork, you keep stock settings without any negative plate spacers, but you mod the fork to 160mm by moving the transfer shaft up 20mm (2 holes). You now have increased the negative air volume by some area times 20mm, but the total fork travel is still 180mm. Statically (unweighted) the bike will sit at 160mm of fork travel and when you sag in, it will be 20-25% less. The top end and mid stroke feel better due to that increased negative volume. But what happens when the spring on rebound stroke pushes the fork to full extension? The transfer shaft will not be sealing (open air transfer between pos/neg chambers) when the fork is at 160-180mm. You've now created 20mm of travel that are unsprung but damped. How could this be a predictable, stable platform?
> 
> ...


You're missing the way that this mod works. Removing the negative plate spacers does not change the travel. Changing the position on the negative transfer shaft changes the travel. Unfortunately I do not think this mod works for forks at 180mm since you are already at the end of the negative transfer shaft.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Ur misreading his comment. The concern is under certain conditions, you have chance of transfer rod coming out of piston bolt hole.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

i wouldn't say i'm misreading, as the mod doesn't work at 180mm as i noted... if you have a 180mm travel fork set at 170mm and remove the negative plate space but leave the transfer shaft rod in place, there is no possible way for the shaft to come all the way out of the top of the piston. there's more shaft exposed than what the fork travel can use.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

We are talking removing more than one spacer. So 20mm and up. Like in his example of 180mm set at 160mm. Like you said as well, another issue is this mod doesnt work if you use max travel of fork.


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## rnm410 (Mar 19, 2012)

justin83 said:


> You're missing the way that this mod works. Removing the negative plate spacers does not change the travel. Changing the position on the negative transfer shaft changes the travel. Unfortunately I do not think this mod works for forks at 180mm since you are already at the end of the negative transfer shaft.


I think you misunderstand my scenario.

Looking at the drawing, the transfer shaft up allows the chambers to equalize in pressure. The the transfer shaft hits a seal in the air piston at some point sealing the positive and negative. Moving the transfer shaft up will allow for the piston head to move further in (or up) the forks. On the other end the air shaft (bolted to the lowers) will move out till it hits the top out bumper. When negative spacers are placed in, they prevent full extension of the air shaft. There are two different length airshafts for different travel fork. There are two seals on the piston, one to the stanchions inner creating the air spring, and one in the center of the piston which seals to the transfer shaft. The transfer shaft seal does not let air pass from the positive chamber through the piston to the negative chamber. The point which the transfer shaft seals is dependent upon transfer shaft length, i.e. the hole placement. The air shaft is free to move its full length until a top out or bottom out is reached independent of transfer shaft placement. With less negative spacers you effective change the air shaft length, i.e. the top out point. When the transfer shaft and air shaft length are in discord you either: 1.) seal the negative chamber yielding a harsh fork (i.e. 50+ psi pressure differential across the negative/pos chambers) , or 2) allow air to pass from pos/neg chamber which prevents gas from pressuring and ultimately the loss of the air spring.

Maybe explain to me how the transfer shaft dictates both directions of fork travel if it is free to move relative to the piston head, or why Fox has two different length air shafts for different travel classes, and why Rockshox air shaft length dictate the travel of the forks?

Refer to the last two drawings:
https://www.ridefox.com/help.php?m=bike&id=566

And think about what would happen if we remove the transfer shaft all together? An air seal would not be made, you could still pressurize the forks, and you would be able to cycle the fork the length allowed by the air shaft.

I think what we are doing here is increasing the negative air volume at the cost of removing the spring at full extension. I will agree this will improve small bump compliance, small shaft movements and improve the feel across the first 1/3 (or so) travel of the fork. Alternately, and arguably, we could just be playing within the tolerances of the transfer shaft seal, maybe for the 10mm mod, but no more. Otherwise what would the purpose of these unnecessary extras be?

As always, correct me if I'm wrong, I am just doing my homework before I change things up. I'm only basing this on Fox's drawings.


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## rnm410 (Mar 19, 2012)

And FYI a 180mm fork with the transfer shaft set to 160mm is the same as a 160mm fork with two negative spacers removed (assuming they have the same airshaft)


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

Fixed my fork. Ordered the MRP ramp cartridge and did away with fox's shitty air spring and shitty negative transfer shaft. Silky smooth now and I have full control over how much negative pressure I want to run. Oh and I don't have to mess with guessing with spacers anymore. Just turn the knob for more ramp up. Done!


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

I was also thinking about this but the cost is quite high. I will wait for some long term reviews and then most probably order it as well.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

I ordered from Jenson, $165. So far, worth every penny. I love the idea of being able to set my own negative pressure.


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## rnm410 (Mar 19, 2012)

To answer my own question, about 1'' up the transfer shaft is a notch. I assume this notch is the point air will equalize. I would also think no more than 2 negative spacers for a given travel setting should be removed.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Does anyone know what thread is on the negative plate spacer?


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

justin83 said:


> I ordered from Jenson, $165. So far, worth every penny. I love the idea of being able to set my own negative pressure.


Justin 83
Are you still happy with the MRP after riding for a while? Is it the answer?


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

If anyone here is on the fence about getting either the full MRP kit or just lower air valve, do it! I don't have either but I have a custom seal head that increases the negative air spring... Made a huge difference right off the bat. It still blows my mind that an expensive fork like this would still need upgrades.


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

Christopher Robin said:


> If anyone here is on the fence about getting either the full MRP kit or just lower air valve, do it! I don't have either but I have a custom seal head that increases the negative air spring... Made a huge difference right off the bat. It still blows my mind that an expensive fork like this would still need upgrades.


Is the the custom seal head from another forum member ? Please tell me more regarding how its changed the action of the fork, i.e. more supple, less seal friction, using more travel etc etc.

And if anyone has used this custom part combined with MRP negative air spring mod, but without the ramp control I would love to hear more.

Thanks


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

Yep, still loving it. My hands used to be on fire after a couple of runs down some of my local trails and now they don't hurt at all. Small bump sens is awesome.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

karpiel said:


> Is the the custom seal head from another forum member ? Please tell me more regarding how its changed the action of the fork, i.e. more supple, less seal friction, using more travel etc etc.
> 
> And if anyone has used this custom part combined with MRP negative air spring mod, but without the ramp control I would love to hear more.
> 
> Thanks


It's the custom seal head 92SE-R had made. There were picks above but they're not showing for me anymore.

Here's what I noticed:
-Much less initial seal friction. The fork moves when barely putting weight on it.
-The action of the fork, or the stroke of the fork is smoother. High speed hits feel much less jarring. 
-Using all travel?? That still depends on how progressive you make your air spring with volume spacers.

Not sure why you would want this custom seal head with the MRP lower air valve. I think the air valve would have the same effect. The custom seal head makes your negative air spring larger to counteract the positive air spring. The MRP kit lets you increase the pressure in the negative air spring to do the same to the positive air spring.


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

Christopher Robin said:


> It's the custom seal head 92SE-R had made. There were picks above but they're not showing for me anymore.
> 
> Here's what I noticed:
> -Much less initial seal friction. The fork moves when barely putting weight on it.
> ...


Of coarse one benefit of using the MRP lower air valve is to eliminate the transfer rod to the negative chamber and so but not having the seal for it will reduce friction as you can then use Supergliss on top of the piston for constant smooooth lubrication without the worrie of the lube transfering into the negative air side.

Its just a thought !


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

I think we are all starting to merge at the same conclusion. I ordered the negative air spring valve conversion kit on its own yesterday. It's only 45 dollars from MRP. I've been doing a lot of experimenting with my fork and I'm pretty convinced that in my case the problem is purely sticktion. The conversion gets rid of one of the two dynamic seals and alows the use of float fluid or similar above the positive spring. 5cc of fox gold in the negative spring is also an improvement.
I think you would still need to use grease in the positive chamber if you want to use the MRP ramp control.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Personally I think grease is a waste of time. After a couple of hours of riding it is pushed up the stanchion wall away from the areas that it is needed most. A liquid lubricant will keep flowing back down the to the piston head seal.


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

Also for anyone running an Avalanche cartridge and finds spring rate far too progessive towards end of travel can now run less pressure in negative side for a slightly less progressive spring rate.

Once installed I will report back.


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## JPJonny (Dec 9, 2016)

Glenn 10 said:


> I think we are all starting to merge at the same conclusion. I ordered the negative air spring valve conversion kit on its own yesterday. It's only 45 dollars from MRP. I've been doing a lot of experimenting with my fork and I'm pretty convinced that in my case the problem is purely sticktion. The conversion gets rid of one of the two dynamic seals and alows the use of float fluid or similar above the positive spring. 5cc of fox gold in the negative spring is also an improvement.
> I think you would still need to use grease in the positive chamber if you want to use the MRP ramp control.


Where did you order the conversion kit, can't find it anywhere.


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

JPJonny said:


> Where did you order the conversion kit, can't find it anywhere.


Go to store, suspension, then upgrades.

Godd luck !


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

*Follow the link*



JPJonny said:


> Where did you order the conversion kit, can't find it anywhere.


Direct from MRP.

Follow the link below.

Shop Online â€" MRP


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## JPJonny (Dec 9, 2016)

Thanks!


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I just find it irritating that companies come out with new products and all the reviewers use lines like "game changer". Meanwhile you get the end user saying "uh, not so much..." Luckily we have guys like MRP, Push, Avy, Vorsprung, and others, that also say the same and make things better for us.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

karpiel said:


> Also for anyone running an Avalanche cartridge and finds spring rate far too progessive towards end of travel can now run less pressure in negative side for a slightly less progressive spring rate.
> 
> Once installed I will report back.


I always wondered how the cartridges would work with air springs. I wonder if or how Craig tunes the valving to compensate for the end stroke progressiveness.


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

Christopher Robin said:


> Not sure why you would want this custom seal head with the MRP lower air valve. I think the air valve would have the same effect. The custom seal head makes your negative air spring larger to counteract the positive air spring. The MRP kit lets you increase the pressure in the negative air spring to do the same to the positive air spring.


That is not correct. I have the MRP "Fulfill" installed on my 36 170mm RC2 that eliminates the transfer rod and allows independent filling of the positive and negative chambers. A lot of confusion on how to set up and work with this modification. MRP's instructions don't help.

You cannot run more pressure in the negative spring without losing travel, the fork will suck down until the pressures equalize. Plenty of people posting about this issue on other threads. I removed all of the travel spacers AND the top out rubber bumper from my fork to increase the negative spring volume. I am currently running the fork at 160mm. I simply add or remove air from both the positive and negative spring until the fork travel settles where I want it and the pressures are what I need for the right sag.



karpiel said:


> Of coarse one benefit of using the MRP lower air valve is to eliminate the transfer rod to the negative chamber and so but not having the seal for it will reduce friction as you can then use Supergliss on top of the piston for constant smooooth lubrication without the worrie of the lube transfering into the negative air side.
> 
> Its just a thought !


That is the reason I purchased the MRP "Fulfill". Transfer rod friction on the rod seal is gone and more important, I can run 5cc of float fluid on the positive spring without it migrating to the negative spring. I also run 3cc of float fluid in the negative spring.

I have one ride on the fork since the mod and i feels better. I can run a little more psi for better midstroke support with the same small bump feel with less psi.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Glenn 10 said:


> The conversion gets rid of one of the two dynamic seals and alows the use of float fluid or similar above the positive spring.


You lose one dynamic seal with the kit.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

danny.mendes said:


> You cannot run more pressure in the negative spring without losing travel, the fork will suck down until the pressures equalize. Plenty of people posting about this issue on other threads. I removed all of the travel spacers AND the top out rubber bumper from my fork to increase the negative spring volume. I am currently running the fork at 160mm. I simply add or remove air from both the positive and negative spring until the fork travel settles where I want it and the pressures are what I need for the right sag.


I am running 8 PSI more in the negative chamber than the positive and mine has not sucked down.


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## danny.mendes (Mar 11, 2013)

Rick Draper said:


> I am running 8 PSI more in the negative chamber than the positive and mine has not sucked down.


On my fork if I have the bike on a stand with the front wheel off as soon as I exceed 2-3 psi on the negative spring, the fork moves up and the pressures equalize. With the front wheel on, it takes around 6-7 psi to move and the negative spring will have a little more psi because of the weight of the front wheel. When the bike is taken off the stand and the fork cycled a couple of times, the pressures are equalized again.

The surface area of the piston is the same on both sides. As long as the piston is free to move and there are no external forces acting on the fork, the two chambers will equalize.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

danny.mendes said:


> On my fork if I have the bike on a stand with the front wheel off as soon as I exceed 2-3 psi on the negative spring, the fork moves up and the pressures equalize. With the front wheel on, it takes around 6-7 psi to move and the negative spring will have a little more psi because of the weight of the front wheel. When the bike is taken off the stand and the fork cycled a couple of times, the pressures are equalized again.
> 
> The surface area of the piston is the same on both sides. As long as the piston is free to move and there are no external forces acting on the fork, the two chambers will equalize.


I need 12+ psi for mine to start to sag in to its travel.


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

Christopher Robin said:


> I always wondered how the cartridges would work with air springs. I wonder if or how Craig tunes the valving to compensate for the end stroke progressiveness.


I'm not sure he can, its more severe in 180mm so I reduced back down to 170mm and lowered oil height by a few mm's which helped a bit !


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## bedell99 (Jan 5, 2007)

I really think people are looking in the wrong place. 

If you let the air out of your fork and the stancion get sucked down you have a vacuum in the lowers. 

I realized this the other day and the once I broke the vacuum it was like a completely different fork. 

Erik


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Rick Draper said:


> You lose one dynamic seal with the kit.


That's what I said. 
I should have said you get rid of one of the three dynamic seals.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

*Use positive spring to set sag*

If the weight of the wheel and fork lowers hanging from the fork is omitted the the pressure in both chambers will equalise. Any extra pressure in the negative chamber is only to overcome sticksion and to counter balance the weight of the wheel and fork lowers.
Pump the positive chamber to the manufacturers recommend pressure. 
Ensure that all the air is out of the negative chamber.
Then set the desired sag by increasing or decreasing the positive spring pressure.
Once happy with sag then pump the negative chamber to the same pressure as the positive and you should be good to go.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

If you have removed the top out bumper then the setup will be more awkward. The piston head will over travel when you pump the positive spring and when you pump the negative spring to achieve an appropriate sag then the pressure will increase in the positive spring thus increasing the spring rate.
Having the bumper in place positions the lowers to approximately where they should be when the fork is extended. Pressurising the negative is to create equal pressure on both sides at this point to dampen top out.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

bedell99 said:


> I really think people are looking in the wrong place.
> 
> If you let the air out of your fork and the stancion get sucked down you have a vacuum in the lowers.
> 
> ...


I think most of us have tried the zip tie trick at this stage.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

From my experience, if you have harshness issues, it is probably due to stiction issues. The air transfer rod seal, negative air bushing, main air piston seal all cause stiction. The vast majority of the stiction is caused by the main air piston seal. You can verify this by removing the air piston seal and cycling, and then repeating that with removing the air transfer rod seal. The air transfer rod seal is insignificant. With the MRP kit, you are reusing the main culprit of your stiction.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

92SE-R said:


> From my experience, if you have harshness issues, it is probably due to stiction issues. The air transfer rod seal, negative air bushing, main air piston seal all cause stiction. The vast majority of the stiction is caused by the main air piston seal. You can verify this by removing the air piston seal and cycling, and then repeating that with removing the air transfer rod seal. The air transfer rod seal is insignificant. With the MRP kit, you are reusing the main culprit of your stiction.


I think you are probably right. Losing the transfer rod is surely a step in the right direction though. Getting rid of the transfer rod means I can use float fluid in the positive spring without it migrating. I'm hoping this will help with stiction in the piston seal. Fox gold in the negative spring should help with the negative air bushing. I'm hoping all these things combined will make a difference.
If not I will try remaking the piston head with a smaller diameter.
While experimenting with the fork as you did I found that the greatest resistance came from the dust wiper seals. I tried the push seals and thought they had more resistance than the fox ones. They may need to be broken in first though.
The forks also moved more freely when I pushed the lower legs towards each other. Therefore there could be a tolerance issue here too.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I think you should only try to cycle it bolted to a hub, so you dont stress the lowers casting. See if there is bushing bind or dust seal stiction then


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Christopher Robin said:


> I always wondered how the cartridges would work with air springs. I wonder if or how Craig tunes the valving to compensate for the end stroke progressiveness.


For full on DH at the park/racing, it was dialed. For normal day-to-day trail riding, I took out a volume spacer (out of the lyrik). With the spacer installed, in most day-to-day riding I'd come up about an inch short of full travel, even pushing pretty hard. At the park, it was set.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

92SE-R said:


> I think you should only try to cycle it bolted to a hub, so you dont stress the lowers casting. See if there is bushing bind or dust seal stiction then


Agreed.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

A little review of the revised main seal head made by 92SE-R:

I decided to give this a try since Push Industries still hasn't come out with their rumored coil conversion kit for the Fox 36. My current setup is a 29er Fox 36, 160mm with Andreas/Ohlins piston and Push factory tune (revalve and highspeed spring). After all of that, I still found the fork was harsh in the high speed hits and found the lousy small bump sensitivity was hurting technical climbs. My hands would hurt after an extended descent over rocks and rough terrain. I hated air springs and wished I had a coil fork like my Marzocchi 888 with Ti spring and Avalanche cartridge.

My base settings were 95psi, 1 orange and 1 blue spacer, Rebound -8, LSC -10 and HSC -12.

After installing the new seal head, I noticed the sensitivity of the fork increased dramatically; you barely had to press down on the fork to move it. I increased my air pressure to just around 100psi just in case. I didn't noticed a difference really riding on flat ground or on fire roads, but did when I had to start climbing over rocks and roots. Basically I found the fork much more supple in the initial stroke and I found the front wheel tracked better while climbing; I was able to climb sections that I've had trouble with before. On the regular ups and downs of trails I rode, when the fork absorbed an impact, I felt the impact a lot less through the handlebars. Overall it was just smooth! Descending: I was worried the fork was going to dive a little too much during the steeper trails but it wasn't that bad. I can't expect much from the RC2 damper since it doesn't have dedicated mid-valves so I had to rely on the spring curve of the air spring and HSC. Either way, descending was smooth and controlled. Not harsh at all and I felt like the fork at higher speeds really matched up well with my Push'd rear shock. At the end I found I used just a little over 4" travel of my total 6". There's a section leading back to the parking lot that's made up of just rocks and switchbacks. This section usually hurts my hands and I've tried alleviating that with different grips and possibly a different handle bar... but this time I felt fine!! 

I think for next ride I'm going to stay at 100psi and go to 2 blue spacers and see if I get deeper into the travel. 

Now I can finally stop throwing money at this fork.


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

92SE-R said:


> I think you should only try to cycle it bolted to a hub, so you dont stress the lowers casting. See if there is bushing bind or dust seal stiction then


I just sent you a PM. Thanks.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Christopher Robin.
Thanks for the review.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Can anyone tell me what thread is on the travel spacers?


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## Mithrandir (Nov 25, 2010)

Just to double check, so if I were suffering the seal tolerances issues, would the MRP conversion kit fix it?
Shop Online - MRP


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

No it would not. You reuse the piston that is the culprit for all the stiction.


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## chuckiebruster (Dec 5, 2016)

92SE-R said:


> No it would not. You reuse the piston that is the culprit for all the stiction.


You got anymore seal heads?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Yah i have the air pistons.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Just confirmed, the new air piston is compatible with the full MRP Ramp Control kit at full bottom out and fixes the notchiness in the air spring that the Ramp Control doesnt fix.


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## chuckiebruster (Dec 5, 2016)

I was the test mule for 92SE-R. So my fork has now been through the ringer!!

I have the MRP kit installed (ramp control and neg spring schrader), SKF seals, and 92SE-R's piston. I had the notchy feeling only on the air spring side up until Sat night. With the lowers off, the air side is now as smooth as the damper side. I'm not running any fluid on top of the piston, just an ass load of slick honey.

In Big Bear a few weeks ago, I was running about 25 PSI in the positive and about 40 in the negative - it felt OK but it was still pretty harsh. On Sunday, I started out with 60 in pos and neg and it was really good until we hit a super chunky trail. Knocked it down to 50 PSI and i could probably still take a small amount out and use the ramp control to add a smidge of progression at the end.

My fork now feels like a thousand dollar fork. Thanks to 92SE-R!!


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## TwistdSpokes (Aug 11, 2009)

I gave the seal head made by 92SE-R a shot to see if it would help out my 2016 36, I will say that it has greatly reduced stiction and the initial stroke is very supple now. I had to increase air pressure to get the same sag and the fork felt much better over small bumps and chatter on the trails. I have been tweaking the fork between 25-30% sag to find a happy medium as the seal head did increase the progressiveness of the spring. 

Overall I am very pleased with how the fork feels now, if you had a harsh feeling fork this might just help you out.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Does anyone know the part number for the foam ring that was in the 2011 fox 36 air piston?
I fitted the shrader valve to the negative spring and the fork felt great while the fluid stayed above the piston. Unfortunately the fluid still migrates south after a couple of hours of riding. I'm thinking of doing the piston head mod but with the addition of a foam ring below the seal. 
The foam ring caused problems for people in 2011 as it caused fluid to enter the positive spring......this would be ideal in my case.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Try maxima assembly lube. Seems to move to where you need it better than slick honey without migrating.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

92SE-R said:


> Try maxima assembly lube. Seems to move to where you need it better than slick honey without migrating.


The reviews seem good. Worth a go. Thanks.
I still can't find the foam ring anywere. Ironic when everyone was trying to get rid of them in 2011.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Maxima ordered


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## chuckiebruster (Dec 5, 2016)

I ordered 2 pistons from 92SE-R; one for my fork (160 27.5) and one for my buddies fork (160 29). The 29er has only the negative mod from MRP. Initial settings were 62.5 PSI in the positive, 72.5 PSI in the negative, 3 orange and 1 blue volume spacer. Sag was measured at nearly 37% (fork was really beating my friend up - he verbally assaults the fork on a regular basis).

After installing 92SE-R's piston - 70 PSI in positive and negative, 1 orange and 1 blue volume spacer. Sag measured at 20% on the dot. Comments after riding, "feels much better than before, way less divey, actually feels like a 160 fork"

I beat the crap out of my bike @ Trestle over the weekend of the fourth. Took 3 days of hot laps before my hands felt destroyed. That is a win in my book!


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

chuckiebruster said:


> I ordered 2 pistons from 92SE-R; one for my fork (160 27.5) and one for my buddies fork (160 29). The 29er has only the negative mod from MRP. Initial settings were 62.5 PSI in the positive, 72.5 PSI in the negative, 3 orange and 1 blue volume spacer. Sag was measured at nearly 37% (fork was really beating my friend up - he verbally assaults the fork on a regular basis).
> 
> After installing 92SE-R's piston - 70 PSI in positive and negative, 1 orange and 1 blue volume spacer. Sag measured at 20% on the dot. Comments after riding, "feels much better than before, way less divey, actually feels like a 160 fork"
> 
> I beat the crap out of my bike @ Trestle over the weekend of the fourth. Took 3 days of hot laps before my hands felt destroyed. That is a win in my book!


So with this piston, you are still able to use the MRP negative chamber set up? So what is the difference between his air piston and the standard Fox piston? I am having a hard time believing simply replacing the piston in an air spring can make that much of a difference.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I have a big post earlier in the thread that explains the technical parts of it with lots of pictures. Cliffs notes: fox has tolerance issues with their air piston. Some air pistons cause excessive stiction from too much compression on the quad ring seal. This seal is responsible for probably 75% if not more of the total stiction in the air spring side so it is very noticeable. People compensate by running too little air pressure, which causes the fork to be extremely divey and ride like crap.


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

92SE-R said:


> I have a big post earlier in the thread that explains the technical parts of it with lots of pictures. Cliffs notes: fox has tolerance issues with their air piston. Some air pistons cause excessive stiction from too much compression on the quad ring seal. This seal is responsible for probably 75% if not more of the total stiction in the air spring side so it is very noticeable. People compensate by running too little air pressure, which causes the fork to be extremely divey and ride like crap.


Do you know if there is a seperate part number from Fox if they are offering an "in spec" piston ?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

The design is already at the limit of recommended compression for the 214 sized quad ring seal. I have gotten measurements where some pistons were almost 0.010" oversized. This is a tolerance and IMO a design issue. Some people will have no issues, and some people will hate the fork. There is no way Fox has a separate part number for an in spec piston when this is probably their allowable tolerance because it is more expensive to have their production facility machine to a 0.001" tolerance.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

I work for an engineering company. Any toolmaker should have no problem producing parts from a CNC lathe with a tolerance of +/-0.001" (+/- 0.0254mm). This is not a particularly tight tolerance. The parts would need to be checked regularly as they come off the machine but that's good practice anyway. The notion of working to a tolerance of +/- 0.01" is laughable for such an important component.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

92Se-R 
What diameter do you reckon the piston head should be?
Mine is 1.0551" (26.80mm)


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Glenn, i agree. 0.001" is easy, say for aluminum. But for plastics and high volume manufacturing, its more expensive, fox cut costs. Its easy to do, but fox chose not to spend the extra time and money to keep the tight tolerance. Just qa like you said would take more labor. Easy but costs money.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Regardless of material 0.01" accuracy is not good enough for this application. What happens if the seal is on the large side also and the inside diameter of the stanchion is on the small side? A bit like a carpenter guessing measurements because measuring things takes too long.

What should the diameter be?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I hold 0.001" tolerance on my part. Fox holds a lot looser tolerance like up to 0.010". I think bean counters decided it was too much of a cost to hold a tighter tolerance. Keep in mind, it works in this application because the cross sectional area of the seal is 0.139". Does it feel like ****? Yes, but will it still seal? Will it cost us an extra $5 in labor per fork to hold a tighter tolerance? Yup, so they probably said good enough.


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

Can you tell me what the diameter should be so I can check mine?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I dont know what Fox's drawings say the diameter should be. But your measurement is outside the recommended compression of the 214 quad seal, so i wouldnt be surprised if you are fighting some stiction issues.


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## slim2none (Jun 3, 2009)

92SE-R said:


> I dont know what Fox's drawings say the diameter should be. But your measurement is outside the recommended compression of the 214 quad seal, so i wouldnt be surprised if you are fighting some stiction issues.


Ok, so then what is the ideal piston head measurement required to obtain the recommended compression of the 214 quad seal?


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## Glenn 10 (Dec 4, 2016)

What is the inside diameter of the stanchions?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

slim2none said:


> Ok, so then what is the ideal piston head measurement required to obtain the recommended compression of the 214 quad seal?


Start with a ballpark squash figure of seal section.

But if you guys are having stiction issues from excessive seal squish then undersizing the seal can be an easy fix.


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## Btownrider (Aug 24, 2013)

92SE-R said:


> I dont know what Fox's drawings say the diameter should be. But your measurement is outside the recommended compression of the 214 quad seal, so i wouldnt be surprised if you are fighting some stiction issues.


92SE-R I sent you a PM inquiring about your product. Hope it gets to you. Could really use the product.


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## Heiril (Nov 2, 2015)

Just put in the Andreani piston kit and soft shim stack in my 2017 FIT4 160mm Fox 36.

1st ride review, not plush at all.

At 60psi (nitrogen), 22% sag, LSC, HSC full open, rebound 7 from slowest, 85kg ride weight. Front tyre at 20 PSI, Continental Trail King 2.4, 30mm internal rims.

In fact, my friend's stock 2015 Fox 36 on 2.8 Scwalbe tyres felt way plusher immediately after mounting and first 1km of ride.









Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Maybe your rebound is too slow for your size?


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## Haim (Jun 21, 2017)

Agree with Purplemountainslayer your rebound is slow, but also for 85kg the pressure at 60psi also seems low, so the combination of slow rebound and low psi may leave you deep in the progressive part of the stroke, contributing to the harshness. Lots of tokens may exacerbate this. Maybe try 65 psi and 8 clicks rebound to see if this helps?


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## Heiril (Nov 2, 2015)

Thanks mates. Will increase the rebound and feedback. Now using just 1 blue token.

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## Haim (Jun 21, 2017)

Hmm that's not a lot of tokens for your weight, if anything would have thought you would have bottoming out issues as well on bit hits. Another one to eliminate as well as upping the pressure/rebound would also be to try the zip tie trick to equalise lower leg pressure, you can create a vacuum in the lowers on reassembly and that can also suck you deeper into the travel..


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

At that weight he should be closer to 70-75psi. 6-8 clicks out on rebound should be fine at that air pressure.


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## Heiril (Nov 2, 2015)

92SE-R said:


> At that weight he should be closer to 70-75psi. 6-8 clicks out on rebound should be fine at that air pressure.


That's what I thought too for the PSI and my ride weight. Holding myself back from the MRP with separate positive and negative chambers now. Well, will play the settings bit more for now.

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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

At your weight, with zero compression damping, something is up. You should need a significant amount for support, if the fork gets even harsher with it, the damping is probably whacked. Having to run HSC and LSC wide open is definitely a red flag.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Or he has an air piston issue causing excessive stiction. Heiril, scroll up a few pages on this thread. Some of my posts might interest you.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I have the Andreani/Ohlins kit with hard shims I believe. I'm about 95Kg and my settings are pretty much in the middle... something must be up with yours. I'm also running 95-100psi.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

92SE-R said:


> Or he has an air piston issue causing excessive stiction. Heiril, scroll up a few pages on this thread. Some of my posts might interest you.


I thought about adding that to my post originally, but check out his weight. A heavier guy. The main issue could very well be the air piston and the damping may only be a symptom. Fox loves to use highly restrictive HS circuits that force you to run stuff pretty wide open for sharp hits.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

The best way to get an idea of whether your air spring or your damper has the issue is to remove the lowers and cycle each side. Typically with an air piston issue, with the top cap off, hand cycling the rod will be very notchy and not smooth. Also, you can see if you have tight bushings by seeing how well the uppers slide into the lowers. They should fall down under their own weight after the dust seals are broken in and well lubed.


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

@92se-r, what is the cost of the air piston thing you manufacture? Including shiping to Europe 
Im thinking about getting 2017 fox 36 fit4, im a bit torn apart between if i need performance of this fork vs much cheaper Yari. Also the stiction problem on fox36 makes me worry about it, extra costs to make it work


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

@shiremux I have a Yari it is NOT suitable for aggressive riding. However, I installed an avalanche cartridge and now it far exceeds the performance I ever got from my '17 fox 36 in every situation I've experience. It was also cheaper than the Fox, close, but still cheaper. I believe Avalanche has a U.K. distributor for their products now too.


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

i know it is not very suited for aggresive riders, im not one od the fortunately  im switching my 160mm rig for a 140mm soon anyway, so this in a combo with yari should be mogę than enough for where i live
btw did u install it urself? Hows the small bump senditivity compared to stock yari and fox?


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## Heiril (Nov 2, 2015)

Jayem said:


> At your weight, with zero compression damping, something is up. You should need a significant amount for support, if the fork gets even harsher with it, the damping is probably whacked. Having to run HSC and LSC wide open is definitely a red flag.


True that. Definitely a big flag.

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## hojong (Jul 25, 2006)

I've got a new 2017 27.5 fox 36 170mm and it seems to have a harsh top out. If I just jiggle the handlebar slightly up and down without the brakes it almost feels like there's play in the front hub, but I have checked the hubs and they are fine. My pressure is set at 65psi. If I pull the brake arch away from the crown (as if I am topping out) it feels like the fork stops immediately.

For reference my 2016 26" fox 36 180mm on another bike feels really smooth if I do the brake arch pull as above; the fork seems to dampen that motion a little bit.

Is there something wrong with my negative air spring? Anything I could try to do before getting warranty involved?


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## Heiril (Nov 2, 2015)

92SE-R said:


> Or he has an air piston issue causing excessive stiction. Heiril, scroll up a few pages on this thread. Some of my posts might interest you.


Yep saw your posts and mods. Awesome job!

That's why I am puzzled as the fork is fresh from full service the night before the ride. The piston and o ring at airside swapped out.

Always love the Fox 36 for composure at high speed and big hits. But intention of adding the Andreani kit is to have the small bump as close possible to my Bos fork on the DH rig.

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## Heiril (Nov 2, 2015)

shiremux said:


> @92se-r, what is the cost of the air piston thing you manufacture? Including shiping to Europe
> Im thinking about getting 2017 fox 36 fit4, im a bit torn apart between if i need performance of this fork vs much cheaper Yari. Also the stiction problem on fox36 makes me worry about it, extra costs to make it work


@92se-r, you got a fan too here in Singapore. Am considering your piston.

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## marshalolson (Jun 27, 2007)

Finally got my 92SE-R air piston installed! super stoked, made all the difference for me.

Rider:
2015 rc2 at 140mm
205lbs rider

Before-
100psi w/ 1 blue spacer
LS: 4 from open
HS: 4 from open

After-
105psi (also added 2 orange volume spacers would be at 115psi with 1 blue)
LS: 13 from open
HS: 10 from open

Descended 13k of fast rough natural trails on Sunday with no hand pump and fork felt great! Previously was getting hand pump after 2000 vert on the fork.


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

Got my fox36 fit4, it rly felt gr8 first day, then it got hars, will the FulFill MRP help a little bit with the small bump sensitivity?


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

shiremux said:


> Got my fox36 fit4, it rly felt gr8 first day, then it got hars, will the FulFill MRP help a little bit with the small bump sensitivity?


If it felt great, then got harsh, it's probably the air seal letting in air into the pos air chamber. Try letting out all of the air and compress it all the way to let all of the air out. If it comes back up at all from full compression, then you have air in the positive air chamber. You can slip a small zip tie under the seals and compress it to get it back out, but it will likely return after a few rides. I would send it back to fox for new air seals. My 2015 36 did the same thing and they put an updated air seal in under warranty. I'm not sure about the MRP though. Fox can also update the internals to 2018 spec which would get rid of the issue too. My 2018 36 is awesome!


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Shredman69 said:


> Fox can also update the internals to 2018 spec which would get rid of the issue too. My 2018 36 is awesome!


Its not a update, its half a fork. You need a new CSU and air spring. In most instances its not viable. Only worth it if you fall off and gouge a stanchion really bad.


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

i've seen a news somrwhere that fox will update forks for a little less money, anyone seen it?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Hate to say it, but it sounds like fox has not fixed their piston tolerance issue on 2018 models. Seems like some people still have stiction issues.


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

Shredman69 said:


> If it felt great, then got harsh, it's probably the air seal letting in air into the pos air chamber. Try letting out all of the air and compress it all the way to let all of the air out. If it comes back up at all from full compression, then you have air in the positive air chamber. You can slip a small zip tie under the seals and compress it to get it back out, but it will likely return after a few rides. I would send it back to fox for new air seals. My 2015 36 did the same thing and they put an updated air seal in under warranty. I'm not sure about the MRP though. Fox can also update the internals to 2018 spec which would get rid of the issue too. My 2018 36 is awesome!


I did what you said, the fork compressed to 0 with no air in chaimbers comes back like for like 1 cm. Does it mean what you said? I pumped the fork again to 5psi lower setting than before and i got a feelign that its even harder than before, can this be possible or my mind is just fixing?
The fork is just 3 days old..


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

shiremux said:


> i've seen a news somrwhere that fox will update forks for a little less money, anyone seen it?


Yes, this is what I was referring to in my previous post. :thumbsup:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/fox-factory-tuning-program.html


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

So, 2 options now, stick with the 2017 and buy the FulFill kit from MRP or update to 2018 without future possibility to install the FulFill, dont know what to do honestly.
The MRP thing seems to be a good option but some ppl repoted few problems with air leaking etc


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Shredman69 said:


> Yes, this is what I was referring to in my previous post. :thumbsup:
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/fox-factory-tuning-program.html


I called Fox about this, upgrading to Evol requires new uppers which is not a lot less $$ than a new fork entirely. That seems to be the upgrade most folks are asking about.

They also pointed out they've always offered this service, but that this publication was just about making it more widely known and addressing the international market.

Truthfully, if it were me, I'd go with PUSH over this. My experience with them is that they take a lot of factors into account and they have a lot of experience doing this for end consumers. In comparison, Fox may offer the service, but their experience may be more oriented at addressing minor issues rather than tuning for you as the rider, which is a more complete option.

As for actual comparisons, I have a Fox tuned fork and a PUSH tuned fork, the PUSH definitely feels better and required less adjustment on my end than the Fox did. The PUSH tune was much more user friendly and descriptive.


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

what exactly did Push do to your fork, what fork is it and how much did it costs?


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

shiremux said:


> what exactly did Push do to your fork, what fork is it and how much did it costs?


I bought it directly from them, but the result is the same. They take your riding style, bike (HA matters on the compression/rebound settings), bodyweight, and so forth, then give you a custom tune in the stock dampener. They also provide you a card with the recommended sag/air pressure, compression/rebound settings, spacers, and any other info you need. I believe on some forks they also change out springs or valves. It's also a full rebuild, I think they use some of their own seals that are supposed to be lower friction, but I can't speak to whether that's the case or not.

It's nice because they give you a starting point on your settings that is much more dialed to your riding style and bodyweight rather than having to debug it yourself. My experience being that both rebound and compression were within 1 click of where they needed to be. The custom tune in the dampener takes care of the rest.

I think it's $225-$250 for 36s, which is about $75 more than Fox charges for a rebuild. IMO it's worth it. The fork definitely is more balanced than my stock tune.


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## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

Shredman69 said:


> Yes, this is what I was referring to in my previous post. :thumbsup:
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/fox-factory-tuning-program.html


sorry if this is a noob question, so does this just mean you send fox your fork or shock and they tune it for a price(hopefully cheaper than push/avalanche/3rd party)?


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

useport80 said:


> sorry if this is a noob question, so does this just mean you send fox your fork or shock and they tune it for a price(hopefully cheaper than push/avalanche/3rd party)?


According to my conversation with them, that's correct, but you won't get it cheaper than PUSH. They have to couple it with a rebuild ($175) and I think the custom tune cost was somewhere in the $30-$40 range, which is in line with what PUSH charges.

Note that Avalanche is entirely different, they don't tune the stock dampener, they replace it entirely which is why it's more expensive.


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

Im happy with my mid support of my 2017 fit4 fox36, all i want is more small bump sensitivity... Not sure what to do, probably Ava and Push is not a good idea for what i want, its either the mod from 92SE-R or FulFill from MRP


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## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

shiremux said:


> Im happy with my mid support of my 2017 fit4 fox36, all i want is more small bump sensitivity... Not sure what to do, probably Ava and Push is not a good idea for what i want, its either the mod from 92SE-R or FulFill from MRP


im pretty much looking for the same thing. im not sure what 92se-r is but the mrp ramp control cartridge looks interesting. it seems like the mrp ramp control is more geared towards improving midstroke and bottom out performance. there's 'some' small bump and initial stroke improvements, but i dont know how much or if it would be worth a purchase considering it's not completely designed to improve small bump compliance.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

I've heard a lot of people say that tuning your spring's performance is much more important than your damper. But I'm not sure I buy it. The goal is to have as linear spring rate curve as possible. So that means an actual coil spring or a large volume air spring. Putting something like the ramp control in a long travel fork will make a progressive airspring even more progressive, even with the minimum amount of volume reduction. This is the opposite of "Coil like" performance.

I run my 170 mm travel Yari with no volume spacers, but don't get excessive brake dive or bottom outs. With normal air pressure to get sag at 22% it feels a lot more plush than my '17 36 ever did with just as much mid support and no high-speed spiking. I think it's because it's got a lot more compression baked into the shim stack but no preload so the blowoff threshold is lower and smoother.

This should be the case for any fork with a decent damper and valving tuned for the rider and terrain. Mine was tuned by avalanche.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> I've heard a lot of people say that tuning your spring's performance is much more important than your damper. But I'm not sure I buy it. The goal is to have as linear spring rate curve as possible. So that means an actual coil spring or a large volume air spring. Putting something like the ramp control in a long travel fork will make a progressive airspring even more progressive, even with the minimum amount of volume reduction. This is the opposite of "Coil like" performance.


The MRP ramp control for the 36 also includes a valve to allow you to fill the negative air chamber to a specified PSI rather than the auto-equalized pressure. So you could fill the negative chamber with more pressure than the fork usually uses.

I think that's why people refer to it improving the performance of the airspring.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Not everyone likes coil like performance. Personally I prefer a more forgiving initial stroke followed by a more progressive one.


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

Exactly, i dont want the mrp ramp control just the thing to pump my negative chamber. Thing is if and now much will it improve the fork


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

I was just trying to make the point that adding spacers to lower psi and prevent bottom out is a poor solution to harshness when it is probably a compression damper issue.

I agree a little progressiveness is nice. I'm really surprised there are no dual rate coil springs for MTB.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> I was just trying to make the point that adding spacers to lower psi and prevent bottom out is a poor solution


Indeed and your quote can stop there.



PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> I agree a little progressiveness is nice. I'm really surprised there are no dual rate coil springs for MTB.


When you're set up with the correct, linear, spring rate you usually don't hanker for dual rates.


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

Just a heads up. I had the looseness/subtle rattle at full extension that's been described. Fork didn't seem overly harsh but not supple either. 
Anyway, had FOX service the fork- all seems perfect again- hard to tell from the invoice precisely what was changed, besides the normal stuff- but it's awesome again hope it lasts


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## jakster (Feb 5, 2012)

*92SE-R you beaut!*

Hi all, so I pulled the trigger on one of user 92SE-R piston seal heads (all the way to South Afica!) and I can honestly say, my 2017 Fox36 FIT4 is transformed into what I think Fox intended the fork to be. Buttery smooth, with no initial breakaway stiction. Hitting some proper rough rockgardens at an enduro race at full tilt, and my arms feels like new. Also, each adjustment (rebound, low-speed, PSI, tokens) has a much bigger impact, due to the lack of initial stiction, thus, its much easier to dial the fork in to your preference. Thanks 92SE-R... hit him up guys, he should be a Fox employee soon  :thumbsup:


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

So, it looks like the 2017 36's STILL have this stupid piston seal issue...

Does anyone know for sure if the 2018's are having this issue as well?

I'm ordering a frame/fork kit for my next build. I'm hoping it just works out of the box like a normal fork. I will be VERY pissed if this is still an issue in its 4th model year. Has anyone sent Fox a bill yet for what it takes to get their forks working properly?


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

I'm kinda disappointed with my Polish authorised Fox dealer, i mailed them the issue and they are always like "we are not aware of the problem", yeah, right. Had the same answer from them once i asked if there's a fix for the MZ stanchion marks (they are Fox and MZ dalers) - same scenario, not aware of anything, this is normal wear and tear - they said.
This is not aftersale service i expected from a company that sells hi-end forks for lots of $$.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

You should be pissed at fox/marzocchi that they sells **** like this. Distributor have nothing to say or they can swap your piston for another with the same issue. The answers you got came from general fox/marzocchi and distributor just react as producer suggested. The same with rockshox.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Ive gotten a couple PMs with people complaining anout the 2018s. Not enough people own them to really say if problem is fixed or still there. It could be setup issues still. Time will tell if there is a new thread for 2018 fox 36 harsh.


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

92SE-R said:


> Ive gotten a couple PMs with people complaining anout the 2018s. Not enough people own them to really say if problem is fixed or still there. It could be setup issues still. Time will tell if there is a new thread for 2018 fox 36 harsh.


Got it, thanks.

Have you done anything to verify that the looser fit on your piston isn't causing any blow-by?


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

GH28 said:


> So, it looks like the 2017 36's STILL have this stupid piston seal issue...
> 
> Does anyone know for sure if the 2018's are having this issue as well?
> 
> I'm ordering a frame/fork kit for my next build. I'm hoping it just works out of the box like a normal fork. I will be VERY pissed if this is still an issue in its 4th model year. Has anyone sent Fox a bill yet for what it takes to get their forks working properly?


My 2018 36 is great, not harsh at all. Super plush, but stays up in the travel better than my 15/16 and soaks up small to big hits.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

If there was, people would be complaining about stuck down forks. I could have pushed design more aggressive but I did not, so I am nowhere close to being at limit of sealing of the quad ring seal.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GH28 said:


> Got it, thanks.
> 
> Have you done anything to verify that the looser fit on your piston isn't causing any blow-by?


If it's too loose people will see air loss from positive to negative and the forks sticking down.
Problems tend to surface after a few months to a years riding. I'm seeing the occasional (stock) Pike with this problem.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

My 2018 seems harsh. Immediately post letting all the air out with the fork fully compressed it subjectively feels much better for one, maybe two rides. I added one volume spacer. It's going to Avalanche soon. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## TXNavy (Apr 7, 2004)

I'm at Whistler this weekend and my 2018 - bought from PUSH so I already have the tuning part - is beating me to death. Felt great on local trails but I haven't been this beaten up on a trail in a decade. The 11/6 in the back feels great but the fork is way, way harsh. It reminds me a lot of when the FIT dampers first came out in 2011 and almost immediately we all cut the viscocity in half to make them rideable. I tried every air pressure, token, and damping combination I could over the last couple days and nothing is making it better.

If I had my Pike with me (2014, but with the newer lower stanchion seals) I would have reinstalled it. It's less stiff but way, way more plush. Capable of blowing down bike park braking bumps at full speed, no problem.


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## mrazz001 (Dec 23, 2009)

I got the 92-E piston and the MRP ramp kit. To me the combo is insanely good. You have a super plush initial storke by adding more negative pressure, so the small bumps disappear. With the new piston, you get smoother action and larger negative volume, so the mid and end stroke support increase noticablly. Finally, the end stroke is just a smoother transition, so it just feels better. I was having bad hand pain on longer runs. It's practically gone lately and the bike feels amazing now. The front can keep up with the 11/6 rear.


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## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

sorry for the stupid questions, this is my first time sending my fork into fox service.

i just sent my 2017 fox 36 fit4 to fox for service, is there anything that fox service can do to make it less harsh? any special requests i should ask of them?


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

I'd call who ever you shipped with and have them re-route it to push or Avalanche. Fox service will do very little for you.


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## mrazz001 (Dec 23, 2009)

Most changes any company does will affect the damper side. I think many are finding the more problematic side is the air side. That's where the aftermarket parts come in. You can install them yourself. I could be wrong, but Push doesn't touch the air side.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Mrazz is correct. My point was Fox isn't going to work with you to get the perfect damper tuning set up for you. These other suspension vendors have to provide good service and take care of you or they'll go out of business. So you'll get a lot more value from them. They might even install an aftermarket air piston for you if you send it to them.


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## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

ah ok. yeah i figured fox wouldn't do much in terms of tuning. im gonna look in to the push acs-3 coil system after i get the fork back. i had to send the fork to fox for a creaky CSU anyways. my fork has only had about 500-600miles of riding. 

thanks for the info!


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

If you can articulate it, tell them exactly what riding conditions it feel harsh in and see what they say. Maybe even mention the airspring issues and tell us what they say .


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## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> If you can articulate it, tell them exactly what riding conditions it feel harsh in and see what they say. Maybe even mention the airspring issues and tell us what they say .


haha i'll try my best to describe the harshness with small bump compliance.


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## titusquasi (Jan 5, 2006)

92SE-R said:


> Ive gotten a couple PMs with people complaining anout the 2018s. Not enough people own them to really say if problem is fixed or still there. It could be setup issues still. Time will tell if there is a new thread for 2018 fox 36 harsh.


My 2018 is so much smoother than my 2016...it's not even close. Now, will it stay that way. This is even in comparison to a freshly serviced '16. I have your piston on order for the '16. I'm hoping for smoother action like the '18 that will remain over time.


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## titusquasi (Jan 5, 2006)

92SE-R said:


> If there was, people would be complaining about stuck down forks. I could have pushed design more aggressive but I did not, so I am nowhere close to being at limit of sealing of the quad ring seal.


@92SE-R

Your message box is full and private messages are not functioning.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Well now I'm a little torn. I already have 92SE-R's piston which made a world of difference in my '15 Fox 36. Do I stay the course and get the MRP cartridge kit, or do I abandon the air spring and get the coil setup form Push...


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## Tomick (Sep 30, 2011)

Just mounted piston from 92SE-R, huge difference from first ride and speed control now working in the middle, not fully open.


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## El_Zilcho (Feb 4, 2013)

Does 92SE-R piston increase negative volume?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

It increases negative volume as well


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## reformed roadie (Mar 30, 2008)

92SE-R - Best way to order pistons? do you have an e-store or something set-up, or PM you?


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

reformed roadie said:


> 92SE-R - Best way to order pistons? do you have an e-store or something set-up, or PM you?


send nudes


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

I am interested How much? I need to replace oil in the lowers anyways. Had a few dusty days.


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm curious when the forks are fully extended--ie when climbing--do you guys feel like they are loose?? hard to describe--but feels like the ng air chamber is waay over pressurized. Sent it to fox--worked great for 2 months now its back


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## ButtersNZ (Jan 15, 2014)

A question for 2017 Fox 36 Fit4 model with MRP Ramp Control cartridge;

I have about 1/2" at the top of the fork that I haven't been able to move the black travel ring past. I've had some big hits, and aren't running too much pressure in the fork. Any suggestions as to what might be happening?


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

Christopher Robin said:


> Well now I'm a little torn. I already have 92SE-R's piston which made a world of difference in my '15 Fox 36. Do I stay the course and get the MRP cartridge kit, or do I abandon the air spring and get the coil setup form Push...


I have installed the Piston and have had great results. I also have the lower part of the MRP kit. I cannot imagine spending anymore on the F36 unless its for an AVY damper.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Just got my 92se mod. I also got a air spring seal kit and skf wiper seals. First thing I noticed is how much stiction my current seal head had. I pulled it out, added some slick honey and put it back in so I knew what a fresh top cap would feel like. Then I put the mod on. It moves much easier but you can tell there is still a seal.

I dropped a blue volume spacer in. I didn't have any before but now I blow through the travel! 

It's a strange feeling, I was going for that super soft up top feel but this combined with the volume spacer has really changed the characteristics of the fork throughout the travel.

Still playing with the settings but I do believe this mod has been a fantastic add to the fork. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

I agree with Juner! I am still running HSC completely open while I play with my rebound & LSC.
Before I could ride down steps with a hand full of front brake & remain high in my travel. I thought that was caused by a mid-valve. Nope just stiction. Next i will probably play with 1 -2 PSI less in the Neg "lower" Spring.


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## tt-r (Oct 18, 2017)

I've torn my 2015 F36 apart and done some measuring. Also did a lot of reading and calcumulating (not my strong side, so I could wery well be wrong) on the Float piston quad seal.

Inner stanchion diam. = 32.7mm
214 Quad seal listed bore diam. = 32mm - resulting in 7% seal stretch, witch is beyond the recommended max 5% strecth.
Float piston seal groove diam. = 26.75mm - production tolerances means this could variate.
214 Quad seal spec only list stretch/cross section reduction up to 5%, so I havent found the precise actual seal cross section, witch is needed to calculate seal squeeze, witch in turn affects friction and stiction. They say that Quad seals need 10-15% squeeze to seal properly, and more squeeze is needed for lower pressure applications.
By carefully measuring outer diameter of the seal mounted on the piston, I concluded the squeeze to be just a hint over 10%, ie at minimum required for a proper seal.

I know this is a total geek-out on the matter, but I like fiddling with this stuff, though I'm no expert and don't claim to be 100% right. I did this only to check my own air spring for tolerances, and correct them if needed. If my calulations are correct, I will have to settle with the - IMO - poor sensitivity of my fork.


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

Or just replace the seal when you change the fluid in your lowers.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Would doing the negative spacer trip rick draper used change my a-c measurement? It seems like the air spring would not have 160 mm travel but the a-c would be the same as if it was set at 170?


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

to adjust travel on 2017 fox 36 float do i need spacers or whole new air shaft?On the help center manual it says 2015-17 requires spacers only but then 2018 requires a new shaft, form what i,ve heard the internals are the same. What is correct then?


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

shiremux said:


> to adjust travel on 2017 fox 36 float do i need spacers or whole new air shaft?On the help center manual it says 2015-17 requires spacers only but then 2018 requires a new shaft, form what i,ve heard the internals are the same. What is correct then?


If you have 2017 then you have a transfer shaft which mean you just need to adjust the transfer shaft length and add/remove a spacer.

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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

Junersun said:


> If you have 2017 then you have a transfer shaft which mean you just need to adjust the transfer shaft length and add/remove a spacer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


100% possitive about that? I almost ordered a new air shaft for 2017


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

shiremux said:


> 100% possitive about that? I almost ordered a new air shaft for 2017


Easiest way to know is letting out your air and removing the top cap to the air shaft where you go to put in air. You'll know right away if you have a transfer rod or not.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Another happy customer with the 92 SE-R piston. My friend was complaining about his 36 being harsh. We were running it at 85 psi with the high speed open, 3 clicks in on rebound, and 2-3 clicks low speed for a 230 pound rider. The front would just skip over smaller stuff. When I tore it apart, you could feel the stock piston stick then slip, despite being properly lubed. 

It now rides great and we are running it at 100 psi with the rebound and dampening in the middle. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Update: I had a chance to chat with 92SE after my initial install. I like my fork to behave as linear as possible but with a nice ramp up in the end. Think coil! Anyways I added a volume spacer and the ramp up was extremely noticeable.

He suggest I go back to no volume spacers like I like and pump up the air pressure to get that mid stroke support.

Before: 80 psi, 2 click hsc, 4 click lsc, 2 lsr from close.

Now: 95 psi, 14 hsc, 14 LSC, 2 lsr from close.

Just insane. Now I understand what everyone was raving about with the 36. The small square edge bumps have now disappeared underneath me. I notice this the most when I'm climbing and I have to umph my way over a root. 

Turn that around and when the big hits come, I have the damper actually doing its job because the air spring is working like it should. 6-8 foot drop just had so much mid stroke support due to the air pressure increase, I'm starting to scare myself of what I'm going to try next haha.

Has anyone played with the negative spacer trick Rick draper was talking about? Does remove one than required actually put the transfer rod in a position where it could come out of the air shaft? 

Also the rubber bump stop is there something else I could replace that with to open up the volume but still keep it from a hard kunk top out? Now I want even more pressure for midstroke support to see how far I can take this fork!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## remix84 (Oct 20, 2017)

Hi,

I registered here to share my experience with my Fox 36 RC2 2016 170mm.

Firstly, I was not disappointed with it, but I felt something harsh in the first mm of travel, and I dealt with it. The most negative point was my hands really hurt in the bike park session. I tried every settings, and I ended with :

- 1 blue spacer
- 45-50 psi (72kg-160lbs) which is very low compared to PSI recommended by Fox.
- HSC open
- LSC 15 clicks from closed
- rebound 10 clicks from closed

But even with low PSI, and HSC open, I could not ride during long session without having hard time with my hands.

Then I started to read internet, and I've seen several concerns about harsh fork.

Zip trick could not fix the issue, or maybe during a short time. Then I saw this custom piston story from 92SE-R, negative mod etc.

As I understood the stiction issue, it could come from a too high diameter of the piston head groove, or a too big outer diameter of the seal itself (Q214, tolerance of +/-0.25mm), or a combo between both.

As I did not know how to order this 92SE-R custom piston (first question, and if it's possible to ship to France ?), I tried to order 2 seals from a dedicated website.

First one has the same dimensions compared to the stock seal (Q214, 24.99x3.53 NBR 70 shores), and a second one smaller. Not a Q213 (23.39x3.53), because I think it's too small and could cause leak issue. I found a 23.99x3.53 but with NBR 80 shores, that means it's stiffer.

When I disassembled the fork to change air spring seals, I tried to mount the smaller one, but it was too stiff to be inserted correctly in the groove. There had a small gap and I was not confident to leave it like this.

I measured the stock seal which was in place with a caliper, and I compared with the seal from the Fox kit, and with the one bought in internet. I kept the smaller one, which was 0.3mm smaller to reduce stiction.

I bought in same time MRP ramp control. I wanted only the Fulfull valve, but it was not possible to order it alone in France, without having 50 dollars shipping.

I tried the new assembly yesterday for the first time during short session, and I had great feeling. Small bump compliance is so much better, it feels smoother in average, I want to try now on long DH if my hands will hurt again, I hope it will solve the issue.

I'm currently 55-60 PSI in the positive chamber, and 65 PSI in negative.
5 HSC from open, and same LSC/rebound for now.

I don't know if it could feel even better with the 92SE-R piston.

Another concern with my fork, I saw this crack when I put back the wheel :

https://reho.st/self/fa0ef311969cedc8081b2aac5916e4098ca4014c.jpg

I don't think this crack is dangerous in this location, but I want your opinion (could it be because I screwed much the axle ?)

Thanks !


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Regarding that crack, I'd show it to Fox. When I had my 2015 fork serviced in eary 2017 (I think..or late 2016), the shop did a big once over and were able to poke a hole in the lowers with a pick to check porosity; they poked through the outer surface. Point is, your issue might also be a defect.


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

I suspect that to get worse!


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## nmxtrdr (Sep 30, 2008)

Sold


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## El_Zilcho (Feb 4, 2013)

nmxtrdr said:


> I've got a 92SE-R piston for sale, like new. $30 shipped.


I'm interested. I'll pm you for more details


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## TwistdSpokes (Aug 11, 2009)

Looks like I am moving to the Push ACS-3, ordered today - if anyone is interested in my 92SE-R piston shoot me a PM.


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## Buggyr333 (Apr 8, 2010)

Another satisfied customer of the 92SE-R piston head. Installed easily, took it out on a ride today and the fork feels like an entirely different animal. Supple off the top but still supportive. 

Was thinking of getting a Push ACS, but at ~230lbs geared up I am on the edge of their supported weight range. I don't plan on gaining more weight, but I can't say the last 20 pounds were planned either.

The new piston head makes me feel like I don't need to do any additional upgrades to the fork.


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## albuht813 (Sep 26, 2015)

Any idea how to order this piston? 92SE-R mailbox is full. Thanks


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

You can buy mine. $40 shipped. PM me.


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## brkel (Jan 10, 2011)

*Dissembling a Fox 36 fork with pressure stuck in the negative chamber*

Has anybody here taken their F36 lowers off with pressure in the negative chamber? I've never dissembled a fork before but would like to as my 2017 F36 is sucking down / losing travel. It's down from 160mm to 145 mm at about 67 psi in the positive chamber.

I've tried burping the fork with a zip tie and no air comes out from the lowers.

I've also tried pumping the fork up to 110 psi to get the visible stanchion back to 160 mm, and then slowly draining the air while cycling the fork, but it still keeps sucking down as the pressure drops so I'm fairly confident that the port between the positive and negative chamber is plugged.

Any thoughts on if there is a danger of having parts go flying and damaging the fork if I dissemble while there is still pressure in the negative chamber? My two particular concerns are; 1) when take the retaining nuts off the bottom that the air shaft assembly rod will get slammed up into the air shaft assembly and 2) when I remove the retaining ring for the air shaft assembly that parts will be flying across the room or worse into my face!

Any thoughts from previous experience with this are much appreciated.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

brkel said:


> Has anybody here taken their F36 lowers off with pressure in the negative chamber? I've never dissembled a fork before but would like to as my 2017 F36 is sucking down / losing travel. It's down from 160mm to 145 mm at about 67 psi in the positive chamber.
> 
> I've tried burping the fork with a zip tie and no air comes out from the lowers.
> 
> ...


You should be fine. The negative chamber is small. It will hit equilibrium as you let air out before you remove the lowers. Likewise it will be at equilibrium when you remove the snap ring, so will not come flying out.

All the above said, I thought the 2017 uses a transfer shaft for the negative chamber that is accessed by pulling the top cap. Have pulled it and cleaned it off?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## brkel (Jan 10, 2011)

Cary said:


> You should be fine. The negative chamber is small. It will hit equilibrium as you let air out before you remove the lowers. Likewise it will be at equilibrium when you remove the snap ring, so will not come flying out.
> 
> All the above said, I thought the 2017 uses a transfer shaft for the negative chamber that is accessed by pulling the top cap. Have pulled it and cleaned it off?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Hi Cary,
Thanks for the reply!
I haven't pulled off the top cap yet, but yes it's my understanding that there is a transfer shaft on that model year. I didn't know that was what the transfer shaft did, makes sense though that it would transfer pressure between the two chambers.  I was assuming the transfer between positive and negative chambers was as per this video 





This is going to by my first kick at taking a fork apart so I'm looking forward to this being a learning experience! I appreciate your help!


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

brkel said:


> Hi Cary,
> Thanks for the reply!
> I haven't pulled off the top cap yet, but yes it's my understanding that there is a transfer shaft on that model year. I didn't know that was what the transfer shaft did, makes sense though that it would transfer pressure between the two chambers.  I was assuming the transfer between positive and negative chambers was as per this video
> 
> ...


The 36 uses a dimple on the transfer shaft. No need to drop the lowers yet. Just remove the air and take the top cap off. 32 and 34 use the dimple on the fork wall and I think the 2018 36 also does.

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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

So I have a 2018 Fox Performance 36 RC2 on the way. Is this fork still likely to have this problem? What's the cost/lead time for a new piston now?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

GH28 said:


> So I have a 2018 Fox Performance 36 RC2 on the way. Is this fork still likely to have this problem? What's the cost/lead time for a new piston now?


There is no way to tell. It doesn't appear Fox has done anything to improve the tolerances of the air piston. Keep in mind, not all forks suffer from this issue. On some the air piston is great from the factory. The best thing to do is ride it first and see how it feels.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

GH28 said:


> So I have a 2018 Fox Performance 36 RC2 on the way. Is this fork still likely to have this problem? What's the cost/lead time for a new piston now?


This piston will not work with your fork.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

GH28 said:


> So I have a 2018 Fox Performance 36 RC2 on the way. Is this fork still likely to have this problem? What's the cost/lead time for a new piston now?


I'd get a vorsprung lufkappe that was recently announced for a 36

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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Funny you guys ask. I have a 2018 fox36 air spring in my hand. I had already designed one a while back for the 2018+ but was wondering if it was even worthwhile. Turns out, Fox has not fixed the tolerance issues and while increasing the negative volume helps mask some of this, doesnt seem to fix it completely for some people.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

92SE-R said:


> Funny you guys ask. I have a 2018 fox36 air spring in my hand. I had already designed one a while back for the 2018+ but was wondering if it was even worthwhile. Turns out, Fox has not fixed the tolerance issues and while increasing the negative volume helps mask some of this, doesnt seem to fix it completely for some people.


THE man himself! Well that sucks for vorsprung....

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## philstone (Mar 14, 2011)

92SE-R - if you make one then I’d definitely be interested. I’ve got a ‘18 FiT 4 on it’s way to me. Your piston transformed my 15 RC2!


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Junersun said:


> Well that sucks for vorsprung....


How come?


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> How come?


Vorsprung luftkappe is expensive (if 92 decides to make it for the 18)

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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Junersun said:


> Vorsprung luftkappe is expensive (if 92 decides to make it for the 18)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But they are both different things, plus I would guess Vorsprung will be selling thousands more Luftkappes.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

How is it different? You're prob right about selling more but those knowing about 92 are winning... woo woo!


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Junersun said:


> How is it different? You're prob right about selling more but those knowing about 92 are winning... woo woo!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The vorsprung increases the negative air volume considerably more.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> The vorsprung increases the negative air volume considerably more.


Ahh ok understood. I buzzed you a little while back about the negative spacers and whether I could get away with 160 travel and 170 spacer config without the transfer rod coming out of the transfer shaft. Do you think that would be the case? I think at 180 (20 mm different between travel and spacer) it would which for me is worrysome...

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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Im not sure how you know how much volume increase my design has when no one has seen my prototypes yet for the 2018+. The design is completely different from my 2015-2017 piston due to the lack of air transfer rod and need to keep the quad seal in the same location.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

92SE-R said:


> Im not sure how you know how much volume increase my design has when no one has seen my prototypes yet for the 2018+. The design is completely different from my 2015-2017 piston due to the lack of air transfer rod and need to keep the quad seal in the same location.


I was commenting on what IS available and not what might become available. Steve has a product on the market NOW to a vast market, he has it out, not something that might happen.


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## chuckiebruster (Dec 5, 2016)

Rick Draper said:


> I was commenting on what IS available and not what might become available. Steve has a product on the market NOW to a vast market, he has it out, not something that might happen.


92SE-R's piston is currently for the old 36. Again, how would you know that Luftkappe has more negative air volume than 92SE-R's new piston for 2018 36? Simple, you don't.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

chuckiebruster said:


> 92SE-R's piston is currently for the old 36. Again, how would you know that Luftkappe has more negative air volume than 92SE-R's new piston for 2018 36? Simple, you don't.


Good luck to him, he seems to have a enthusiastic following on here.


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## Duffman1976 (Aug 27, 2015)

Another happy 92SE-R customer here. My ‘17 fox 36 had always felt dead and harsh. 
Finally got around to installing his piston seal. Man, what a difference!!! I was using maybe half the travel on the fork before with harshness everywhere. Now it’s nice and supple and even sensitive on the super small hits. This is what it should have felt like from the factory! Was running 70psi. Added 10psi so now up to 80 to get the sag around where I wanted and the feel to match the rear of the bike.

Another issue I discovered when I took it apart was that whoever assembled it at fox slapped on about 1.5” of solid grease below the piston seal. Basically acting like another volume reducer. Wiped that clean and put a thin grease in its place. 

I really can’t believe how good the fork feels now. Before it would bounce off small chatter and not follow the terrain well. On bigger hits and drops it would spike up bad. Now it’s like butter!


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

So, I have the 2015 36 RC2 NA-- Ive played with this a lot yanking things apart/etc. I have 92s air piston which I have yet to install. Seems on my forks, the primary issue for me is air getting trapped in lowers--when I empty is via a rebuild or zip ties--things are awesome for a few rides. If I redo the zip tie to depressurize the lowers all is good again--for a few rides. Seems like there should be a better way to keep the pressure out of the lowers. Seems this in going to come up regardless on the model year/MRP/New pistons--whatever--it would be nice get to the bottom of this issue.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Trackho said:


> So, I have the 2015 36 RC2 NA-- Ive played with this a lot yanking things apart/etc. I have 92s air piston which I have yet to install. Seems on my forks, the primary issue for me is air getting trapped in lowers--when I empty is via a rebuild or zip ties--things are awesome for a few rides. If I redo the zip tie to depressurize the lowers all is good again--for a few rides. Seems like there should be a better way to keep the pressure out of the lowers. Seems this in going to come up regardless on the model year/MRP/New pistons--whatever--it would be nice get to the bottom of this issue.


If air is getting trapped int he air side lower then you need to rebuild the air spring as the negative air seal head is leaking air.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I agree with Rick. That oring for the bottom sealhead is tiny and can be compromised easily.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Rick Draper said:


> If air is getting trapped int he air side lower then you need to rebuild the air spring as the negative air seal head is leaking air.


I've had this same problem with my 15 and now it's also happening with my 18 although not as frequently and air is/was, (I don't have the 15 anymore) getting trapped in both legs, not just the air side. Will the Vorsprung Luftkappe or 92 air spring fix this issue? Also mine is a 180 if it matters.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Neither affects air in the lowers. The small oring on the lower sealhead at the bottom of the stanchion is the culprit for negative air pressure migrating into the lowers. You will need to get an air spring service kit from Fox and replace that oring, unless someone has figured out the part number for it.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

92SE-R said:


> Neither affects air in the lowers. The small oring on the lower sealhead at the bottom of the stanchion is the culprit for negative air pressure migrating into the lowers. You will need to get an air spring service kit from Fox and replace that oring, unless someone has figured out the part number for it.


Cool thanks man.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Shredman69 said:


> I've had this same problem with my 15 and now it's also happening with my 18 although not as frequently and air is/was, (I don't have the 15 anymore) getting trapped in both legs, not just the air side. Will the Vorsprung Luftkappe or 92 air spring fix this issue? Also mine is a 180 if it matters.


How are you discovering the trapped air in the lowers? Not by putting a zip tie past the seals and compressing the fork?


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

Rick Draper said:


> How are you discovering the trapped air in the lowers? Not by putting a zip tie past the seals and compressing the fork?


So I notice the lowers being pressurized when climbing--it feels like a loose headset with minimal compliance at full extension

Yes the pressurized air comes out with a zip tie when fork is at full extension--on both sides. It generally cycle the fork with the zip ties in and yank them when fork is at full extension

So the compressed air in the lowers comes out of both sides (both the dampening side and the air spring side) and I am NOT seeing any reduction in positive airspring pressure which would indicate a leaking neg airspring. The fork was rebuilt by FOX in June--and this pressurized lower phenomenon started in August


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Rick Draper said:


> How are you discovering the trapped air in the lowers? Not by putting a zip tie past the seals and compressing the fork?


The fork starts off plush and uses full travel. Over time, it becomes harsh and doesn't use full travel. I let all of the air out while compressing the fork all the way until all of the air is let out. When I release the fork, it rises back up a few inches. Then I use a small zip tie under each seal, 1 at a time and u can hear the trapped air escape and the fork will stay fully compressed when done. Re inflate, pump the fork to equalize the air chambers and it's like new, for awhile.


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

92SE-R said:


> I agree with Rick. That oring for the bottom sealhead is tiny and can be compromised easily.


Would I be able to see bubbles if I dunked it w/o lowers in a bucket of water--or sprayed soapy water on it?? Still doesn't explain the dampening side


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Air is getting inside the chambers, not escaping. So you wouldn’t be able to see air or bubbles with air going in.


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

Shredman69 said:


> The fork starts off plush and uses full travel. Over time, it becomes harsh and doesn't use full travel. I let all of the air out while compressing the fork all the way until all of the air is let out. When I release the fork, it rises back up a few inches. Then I use a small zip tie under each seal, 1 at a time and u can hear the trapped air escape and the fork will stay fully compressed when done. Re inflate, pump the fork to equalize the air chambers and it's like new, for awhile.


Exact same as mine--well said


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

Shredman69 said:


> Air is getting inside the chambers, not escaping. So you wouldn't be able to see air or bubbles with air going in.


 Agreed--I wanted to eliminate the possibility of a neg air spring leak--but doesn't explain the air getting into the damper side--so we are on the same page. Id love to hear the theory how the air gets in the lowers--I'm guessing sucking thru the fork seals is the only answer. Its a hassle emptying them every other ride to get the fork to work well


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Shredman69 said:


> The fork starts off plush and uses full travel. Over time, it becomes harsh and doesn't use full travel. I let all of the air out while compressing the fork all the way until all of the air is let out. When I release the fork, it rises back up a few inches. Then I use a small zip tie under each seal, 1 at a time and u can hear the trapped air escape and the fork will stay fully compressed when done. Re inflate, pump the fork to equalize the air chambers and it's like new, for awhile.


What you are doing is totally wrong. The lowers will pressurise to ambient pressure at full extension, when you compress the fork the air in the lowers will remain trapped, it cannot escape. You should only check the lowers for pressurisation at full extension.

You are trying to compensate to other issues by creating a vacuum in the lower legs, a vacuum in the lower legs is something you do not want.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Trackho said:


> So I notice the lowers being pressurized when climbing--it feels like a loose headset with minimal compliance at full extension
> 
> Yes the pressurized air comes out with a zip tie when fork is at full extension--on both sides. It generally cycle the fork with the zip ties in and yank them when fork is at full extension
> 
> So the compressed air in the lowers comes out of both sides (both the dampening side and the air spring side) and I am NOT seeing any reduction in positive airspring pressure which would indicate a leaking neg airspring. The fork was rebuilt by FOX in June--and this pressurized lower phenomenon started in August


You are reading too much into it all IMHO. You don't have a issue with the negative air spring leaking, you would know if it was.


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

Rick Draper said:


> You are reading too much into it all IMHO. You don't have a issue with the negative air spring leaking, you would know if it was.


Thx- this has been driving me nutz for almost 2 years. I'd love to sort a long term fix- seems like bleeders is the only real solution. Once the fork is working correctly- it's aggravating to have it pack up. At least I know how to undo it now- just a hassle


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Rick Draper said:


> What you are doing is totally wrong. The lowers will pressurise to ambient pressure at full extension, when you compress the fork the air in the lowers will remain trapped, it cannot escape. You should only check the lowers for pressurisation at full extension.
> 
> You are trying to compensate to other issues by creating a vacuum in the lower legs, a vacuum in the lower legs is something you do not want.


I'm not sure what the f you are talking about. I'm letting all of the air out of the shrader valve when I compress the fork. When I let all of the air out, the fork should stay fully compressed, not rise back up. That means there is air trapped in the chambers. When I slip a small zip tie past the seals, that trapped air comes out. You can hear it and the fork stays fully compressed. How is that wrong or creating a vacuum? That pressure builds more and more over time. If I don't bleed out that trapped air, the fork just gets worse and worse. Ambient air pressure doesn't keep building.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Iirc you are only supposed to do the zip tie trick at full extension. I don’t know but maybe compressing the fork with the zip ties in will ultimately create a vacuum down there. Perhaps that’s RDs point. Some of the other guys on this thread are a lot smarter than me. If I was having this issue I would take their advice and do the airspring and lowers overhaul. It’s the best case scenario for a fix, cheap, and just standard maintenance.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

A part of me thinks if both sides are trapping air, its obviously not the lower sealhead leaking since that is only on one side. Makes me wonder if the oem skf seals are too stiff and too good at sealing. I noticed the green skf seals are made of a more soft compliant compound, maybe allowing any trapped air to escape. Just a thought.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Purple and RD, that makes no sense to me. First of all, once the air has been let out of fork, through the air valve and there is still air inside how else do you get the trapped air out without putting in the zip ties? When you do that, it fully compresses and there is no more air inside. Also, as trackho said, changing the air seal doesn’t address the damper side, so how do we keep air from getting in both sides?


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

92SE-R said:


> A part of me thinks if both sides are trapping air, its obviously not the lower sealhead leaking since that is only on one side. Makes me wonder if the oem skf seals are too stiff and too good at sealing. I noticed the green skf seals are made of a more soft compliant compound, maybe allowing any trapped air to escape. Just a thought.


That would make more sense. I suppose I could try that.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Shredman69 said:


> I'm not sure what the f you are talking about. I'm letting all of the air out of the shrader valve when I compress the fork. When I let all of the air out, the fork should stay fully compressed, not rise back up. That means there is air trapped in the chambers. When I slip a small zip tie past the seals, that trapped air comes out. You can hear it and the fork stays fully compressed. How is that wrong or creating a vacuum? That pressure builds more and more over time. If I don't bleed out that trapped air, the fork just gets worse and worse. Ambient air pressure doesn't keep building.


A fork when compressed SHOULD NOT stay sucked down in its travel. It should return to almost full travel as there WILL ALWAYS be a air inside the lower legs to extend it back up. What you are doing is totally wrong, when the fork is aired up the lower legs then have a vacuum in them until air is drawn back into the lower leg, likely past the wiper seals and at the same time potentially drawing muck into a fork.

Anyhow this is my last post on this subject.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Rick Draper said:


> A fork when compressed SHOULD NOT stay sucked down in its travel. It should return to almost full travel as there WILL ALWAYS be a air inside the lower legs to extend it back up. What you are doing is totally wrong, when the fork is aired up the lower legs then have a vacuum in them until air is drawn back into the lower leg, likely past the wiper seals and at the same time potentially drawing muck into a fork.
> Anyhow this is my last post on this subject.


Ok, whatever. Your saying what I'm doing is wrong, but your not saying what I can do to fix the problem. It's more than ambient air pressure getting inside, both sides. It keeps building over time until the fork becomes harsh and doesn't use full travel. That's not normal. Prior to 15, no fork I've ever owned has done that. Also my last post. Thanks for everyone's input. I'll just redo the air seals and try skf wipers.:thumbsup:


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

Shredman69 said:


> Ok, whatever. Your saying what I'm doing is wrong, but your not saying what I can do to fix the problem. It's more than ambient air pressure getting inside, both sides. It keeps building over time until the fork becomes harsh and doesn't use full travel. That's not normal. Prior to 15, no fork I've ever owned has done that. Also my last post. Thanks for everyone's input. I'll just redo the air seals and try skf wipers.:thumbsup:


What RD is saying is that there is a natural air spring in the lowers which was thought out in the FOX design--in their service procedure, they recommend to fully extend the air spring with 50psi, before installing the lowers which keeps the air pressure at ambient at full extension--however what we are experiencing is air pressure in the lowers that exceeds ambient considerably--thus the Pssst of air via the zip tie at full extension. I often cycle the fork with no aircap/rod with the zip ties I the seals--just to get all of the air pockets out--if the zip ties are left in the seals the whole time until the forks are fully extended, its all good--I think whether you yanked the zip ties when the forks were fully compressed was RD's issue. This issue is pretty well known--Noah from MRP recommended cycling the fork with the zip ties in place--which is usually what I do.

Regarding--replacing the seals

Not sure Id bother--this was all done on my fork by FOX service and I had the same problem a few weeks later. Since I have pulled things apart--looked at everything, relubed, things were awesome for 2-3 rides, then it was back. I was thinking about this very issue on my ride this am feeling my forks "clunk" on the climb. I wondering if giving the fork seals a healthy dose of slick honey might help them not suck in air for a brief amount of time (I do this when I rebuild as does FOX). I guarantee that after servicing the fork it will perform fantastic for the first few rides as ALL the compressed air is out of the lowers--but, based on my experience, it will be back. I know 92E has gotten rave reviews for his piston, which I believe--but people's first impressions have no build up in air in the lowers via the rebuild--so the forks perform really well regardless of the piston. Anyway, Ill be trying the 92E pistons shortly, so we'll see what happens--but I suspect the pressurized lowers will continue.

Absolutely keep us posted as Id love to sort the answer


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Thanks for the info. I’ll keep you posted. :thumbsup:


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## SoCal-Rider (May 25, 2009)

@Shredman69 I went thru the same thought process as you regarding burping the stanchion seals at full compression. The additional vacuum (negative pressure) this created made for a very supple initial feel to the fork. And I too noticed the effect would go away over time (due to air (and dirt?) getting sucked back in thru the stanchion seals). I ran my thinking by Vorsprung and they told me this was a no-go. Burping should only be done at full extension, like others are saying above.


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## cws196 (Apr 12, 2010)

I have a set of 34's (2015) upgraded to the NA airspring and have been following this thread for over a year, having struggled with sporadic performance of my fork since making the NA upgrade in May 2016. I rebuilt my fork over Christmas with new Fox wipers and dropped the damper oil to 5wt (it's the final version of CTD adj. type) - this is in addition to having increased neg. volume via the base-plate adjustment. First hour of the ride and the fork was great and then performance crashed-fork and would struggle to reach even 50%. I inserted a zip-tie via the wiper seals - only damper side hissed due to air-release, and the fork immediately felt so much better. I then inserted the zip-tie again on both wipers and cycled the fork - there was an audible sound of air being suck-in/expelled on the spring side. So having been repeatedly told by Fox that their forks never pump-up and never require burping, I now think burping is the way forward to maintain supple performance.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Hi guys. From time to time I am also not that happy with my 36 but overall I am quite satisfied and consider it the best fork I've ever had. 

Out of curiosity when you say that your 36 is harsh what do you mean exactly? Is it overall harsh, is it not that great when it comes to small bump sensitivity?


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

gpgalanis said:


> Hi guys. From time to time I am also not that happy with my 36 but overall I am quite satisfied and consider it the best fork I've ever had.
> 
> Out of curiosity when you say that your 36 is harsh what do you mean exactly? Is it overall harsh, is it not that great when it comes to small bump sensitivity?


For me the harshness came off the top of the stroke. Trying to get the fork active was a chore which lead to sore hands. Once the fork was moving along then it was less noticeable because I was compensating for the stiction by running hardly any compression and keeping my air spring pressure light.

I'm just about to do my damper oil change as well as my lowers. Took a negative plate off like Rick suggested earlier and I'm going to use a lighter oil in the damper since I'm no where near maxed out on the knobs.

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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

My 36 isn't buttery smooth (what a cliché) when it comes to low speed and small bump sensitivity but when I start rolling and the faster I go the better it gets. 

Usually I prefer to add a couple of tokens, lower a bit the pressure and have the rebound fast enough so it will be quite active and supple but also supportive.


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## Duffman1976 (Aug 27, 2015)

Mine was hard to get moving off the top as well. Also felt overdamped all the way around despite running little rebound or compression. At speed on medium speed stuff it felt better but still not great. Drops and jumps to flat would also spike up and feel harsh. Both of my hands were sore after rides which never happened with other forks. I also never used full travel, not even close. 

Installed the 92SE piston and all is well now. When I had the lowers off and top cap unscrewed I cycled the air side with the oem piston in and it was difficult to move even in this situation and would get almost stuck towards the top of the stroke. With the 92SE piston it cycled easily and smoothly. Also mine came from the factory with way too much grease packed into the neg air chamber and smothering everything around it which didn’t help matters either.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Another happy 92se piston owner gave me some feedback. He’s my buddy who doesn’t work on bikes. I offered to help rebuild his suspension and I recommended the 92se for his ‘15 36 rc2. We did a lowers service, a damper bleed, the new piston and an air spring rebuild. I put it back together with slick honey and x-fusions ultra slick fork fluid. So there’s a lot going on, but after dialing it in he set a pr on all the gnarly dh trails around here. He said it feels both more supportive and also blows off easier on hard hits.


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## 7four8 (Sep 9, 2007)

Want to give another thumbs up to the 92se piston. Incredible what a small tolerance makes. 
I'm light weight so really noticed the stichtion and my hands would hurt and go numb after fast speed chatter. 
I have taken out all the tokens and added more pressure. Now the fork behaves beautifully. I don't have a death grip on fast rocky section and the fork just absorb and tracks everything yet still staying up in it's travel. 


Just like other riders it soaks big hits better too with no diving.


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## AbMTB (Jan 24, 2018)

More props to 92se for the piston. Works great!


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## toronte (May 28, 2013)

I'm also happy with the new piston. It simply does what they say. I no longer have to compensate running lower air pressure with more tokens. Now it feels like the fork is performing how it should have from the factory. Plush enough at small speed, still supportive when going gets rough.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

gpgalanis said:


> My 36 isn't buttery smooth (what a cliché) when it comes to low speed and small bump sensitivity but when I start rolling and the faster I go the better it gets.


Same here. Mine definitely isn't the most comfortable at low speeds but it does perform well at high speeds but I guess that makes sense considering the bike it came on (Hightower LT) really likes going fast.


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## durkind (Jul 8, 2005)

So for a real light rider (my wife weighs under 120 all kitted) in general is it better/smoother off the top to run low pressure with more tokens or higher pressure with less. Bottoming out is not her problem but less chattery over chunk is. Thanks


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

durkind said:


> So for a real light rider (my wife weighs under 120 all kitted) in general is it better/smoother off the top to run low pressure with more tokens or higher pressure with less. Bottoming out is not her problem but less chattery over chunk is. Thanks


Generally I would say low pressure more token to keep the sensitivity high up top. But there comes a point where your fork will cycle too much because there's not enough air spring to keep her upright.

In general spring keeps you upright, damper keeps you stable.

A lot of people on this forum is having a hard time with their 36 because of the stiction that 92 solved with his topcap. That stiction made it quite difficult to figure out what "upright" really was.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

durkind said:


> So for a real light rider (my wife weighs under 120 all kitted) in general is it better/smoother off the top to run low pressure with more tokens or higher pressure with less. Bottoming out is not her problem but less chattery over chunk is. Thanks


Generally less tokens for lighter riders. At her weight I would run no tokens and the 92ser piston and consider having the fork revalved as she is outside the designed tuning range. You might also consider swapping the fork out for a Manitou Mattoc with lighter fluid. Several people are running those for riders that weigh 110-120 pounds with good results.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## durkind (Jul 8, 2005)

Sorry to be clueless but where do you get these 92se-r pistons from? Google is helping me!!


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Send him a dm and he’ll send you a PayPal invoice


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## durkind (Jul 8, 2005)

Who’s “him”?


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

durkind said:


> Who's "him"?


Look back a few pages. He's a member on the forums

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

Just an update. I finally installed the 92SE piston. Works fantastic- I'll keep all posted to see if it remedies the compressed air in lowers issue or if that wasn't a proper diagnosis- so far the new piston has provided a huge improvement


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## nightnerd (Mar 5, 2007)

I have a 92SE piston for sale if anyone is interested. Just sold the 36 it was in so I have no more use for it. Just Pm me.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Trackho said:


> Just an update. I finally installed the 92SE piston. Works fantastic- I'll keep all posted to see if it remedies the compressed air in lowers issue or if that wasn't a proper diagnosis- so far the new piston has provided a huge improvement


Did you rebuild the rest of the air spring when you installed the piston? From my experience the pressurized lowers issue is due to air escaping past the air spring base plate. It's a super easy rebuild, basically just orings. I'm guilty of opting to just clean and grease the guts and dust rings on my forks. But when I recently installed the 92se on my friends '15 we did the whole airspring rebuild, his old rings were flat on the sides from wear.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Vorsprung have a new air piston and negative plate tube coming out for the 2015-17 36 NA air spring.


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

Without reading all 7 pages, I'm looking for a little advice on setting up my new to me '17 36 RC2. I set it according to the factory tuning guide, 100psi for my 260 lbs of rider weight, 32mm sag, 15 clicks of HSC/LSC and rebound fully closed. I'm going to be riding it for the first time on real trails this weekend. I've ridden twice on tame beginner trails, so I can't really use that as an effective metric. I'm planning on renting a ShockWiz for my riding this weekend. Is that a good idea or a waste of money? I've always been a set it and forget it kind of guy. I had a Manitou Magnum Pro riding at 400 lbs, that I ran according to the stock tuning guide actually really liked. I had a '17 Pike RCT3 that I chased my tail on for two months, never really getting it to where I liked it, which is why I went with the Fox.


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## dp400 (Jul 27, 2011)

askibum02 said:


> Without reading all 7 pages, I'm looking for a little advice on setting up my new to me '17 36 RC2. I set it according to the factory tuning guide, 100psi for my 260 lbs of rider weight, 32mm sag, 15 clicks of HSC/LSC and rebound fully closed. I'm going to be riding it for the first time on real trails this weekend. I've ridden twice on tame beginner trails, so I can't really use that as an effective metric. I'm planning on renting a ShockWiz for my riding this weekend. Is that a good idea or a waste of money? I've always been a set it and forget it kind of guy. I had a Manitou Magnum Pro riding at 400 lbs, that I ran according to the stock tuning guide actually really liked. I had a '17 Pike RCT3 that I chased my tail on for two months, never really getting it to where I liked it, which is why I went with the Fox.


Rebound fully closed ( full clockwise - in ) ? If you ran it like that it would pack so bad your teeth would fall out. That can't be the recommended setting! At the very least I think you would want to start somewhere in the middle. 
You will probably want to run less compression as well - at least low speed. 
It's all trial and error. 
I've been tweeting my 2018 36 forks for 2 months and just getting happy with the settings.

Good luck.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> Vorsprung have a new air piston and negative plate tube coming out for the 2015-17 36 NA air spring.


Any rumors on when?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

askibum02 said:


> Without reading all 7 pages, I'm looking for a little advice on setting up my new to me '17 36 RC2. I set it according to the factory tuning guide, 100psi for my 260 lbs of rider weight, 32mm sag, 15 clicks of HSC/LSC and rebound fully closed. I'm going to be riding it for the first time on real trails this weekend. I've ridden twice on tame beginner trails, so I can't really use that as an effective metric. I'm planning on renting a ShockWiz for my riding this weekend. Is that a good idea or a waste of money? I've always been a set it and forget it kind of guy. I had a Manitou Magnum Pro riding at 400 lbs, that I ran according to the stock tuning guide actually really liked. I had a '17 Pike RCT3 that I chased my tail on for two months, never really getting it to where I liked it, which is why I went with the Fox.


For a 230 pound rider on that fork I am showing 100 psi and rebound 6 out from closed. Try 105 psi and 5 from closed for rebound to start.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Junersun said:


> Any rumors on when?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Steve posted photos on Instagram yesterday so I guess its very close.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Neat! I am excited to hear about how much though and smile about how much I saved on my mod.

Vorsprung is legit though...


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## 7four8 (Sep 9, 2007)

durkind said:


> So for a real light rider (my wife weighs under 120 all kitted) in general is it better/smoother off the top to run low pressure with more tokens or higher pressure with less. Bottoming out is not her problem but less chattery over chunk is. Thanks


I'm also light at 135 and fox service has told me directly that if psi is below their recommendation (50psi) the neg chamber will not equalize with the pos chamber. This will make the fork even harsher as there is no neg air pulling down the fork. Suggestion was to run at recommended min or pump up the fork and push down on the fork at least halfway to get air in the neg chamber then at full extension release air to desired level below 50 psi.


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## 7four8 (Sep 9, 2007)

Cary said:


> Generally less tokens for lighter riders. At her weight I would run no tokens and the 92ser piston and consider having the fork revalved as she is outside the designed tuning range. You might also consider swapping the fork out for a Manitou Mattoc with lighter fluid. Several people are running those for riders that weigh 110-120 pounds with good results.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


This is what I did. New piston and recommended psi on fox web page and fork feels much better.


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

So what would it take to change a 2015/2016 short travel F36 and make it a along travel F36.? I was thinking about treating myself to an AVY damper. I have a short travel max 160 cm & if all I need is the Air spring & damper I may do it. Thoughts? Will the air spring work even though I'm happy with the MRP neg & 92SE-R piston.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

You just need to remove the spacers. http://www.ridefox.com/fox17/help.php?m=bike&id=576


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

In a long travel configuration the mrp and the 92se-r piston would take up too much space in the positive air chamber, causing too much ramp up. If I were you I’d just get the travel where I want it, remove the MRP, leave in the 92SE-R piston and tune it from there.

If you’re still not happy you could go with an Avi. I love mine. It’s amazing how smooth and plush it feels, big hit, small hit, doesn’t matter. And it doesn’t dive or pack down. 

Mine is in a Yari chassis. You might consider just selling your fox. You can probably get $500 for it. Buy a used Yari for like $300 or less and an Avi damper for ~$500. You will love the set up!


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

Right now I am just using the lower MRP to play with the diff upper & lower air pressure. You do lose some travel when you bump the Neg pressure higher but the small bump compliance is great. I lose about 1.5 cm of travel and have already removed the spacer. 

Most of the riding I have been doing is shuttled and I am having a hard time keeping up with the downhill bikes. They can plow but I have to pick a good line. I think running a 180 with a lil more sag would be the ticket.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

I didn’t know about the mrp neg. Just took a quick look. It’s pretty interesting. 

Not sure where I fall on the spring tuning vs damper tuning debate. I would love to try more forks with varied set ups.

I know people who swear by the newer dual chamber airsprings combined with simple, light compression dampers. Then there are people who swear by coil springs and stock dampers. All I know is most stock forks suck. And the Avi damper with a stock RS air spring is really good. That said I do like my friends f36 w/ 92se-r piston, low friction seals and light weight damper oil.


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

So finally installed the 92SE upgrade- works awesome- I’m super stoked with this modification and have dropped DH times noticeably. Compressed air in lowers still bugs me on climbs- we’ll sort that next but seems to have little effect on DH


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Trackho said:


> Compressed air in lowers still bugs me on climbs- we'll sort that next but seems to have little effect on DH


So the air seals on the negative air chamber are leaking. I guess you are seeing a pressure drop on a ride?.


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

How does the 92SE upgrade compare to the MRP Ramp Control system? I got my first good ride in on my 160mm '17 Fox 36, and it seemed pretty harsh even though it was pretty dialed according to the ShockWiz I had hooked up. I'm about 260 kitted up, and I like to go fast and roll over everything. I'm horrible at picking a decent line at speed. I really son't know that I would need the whole MRP kit, only the negative air upgrade, My ramp up was good with no spacers installed.


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

I do not have the full ramp control but just the neg spring valve. It does allow you to fine tune the air spring. You can have more neg pressure which makes the small bump really compliant. But you will start losing travel as they try to balance.


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

Rick Draper said:


> So the air seals on the negative air chamber are leaking. I guess you are seeing a pressure drop on a ride?.


Nope pressure in positive stays constant


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## briggerh (Mar 13, 2018)

Trackho said:


> So finally installed the 92SE upgrade- works awesome- I'm super stoked with this modification and have dropped DH times noticeably. Compressed air in lowers still bugs me on climbs- we'll sort that next but seems to have little effect on DH


Are you running the stock transfer shaft or mrp kit?


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## remix84 (Oct 20, 2017)

I've finally found correct settings with 92SE-R upgrade.

I've MRP kit installed too.

Previous settings were around 45-50PSI, HSC open or 1-2 clicks, and LSC around 15-18 from close, and fast rebound.

Too harsh, that was a little bit better with MRP but still hand pain.

Then, I put his piston, air shaft was moving much easier, and I started with 55-60 PSI (72kg without gears), 12 clicks rebound from close, 18 HSC from close, 15 LSC from close and MRP 0 clicks.

I was still not happy even if small bumps were better. I was still suffering in long DH.

And I found my happiness with 75 PSI, 22 HSC and 15 LSC, 9 rebound from close.

Mid stroke is amazing, and fork is much more responsive. Thanks you 92SE-R :thumbsup:


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## Unbrockenchain (Aug 21, 2015)

What is the difference between the 92SE piston and the Luftkappe piston?


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Unbrockenchain said:


> What is the difference between the 92SE piston and the Luftkappe piston?


Probably the negative air spring volume each of them create. I'm sure they both determined the cap diameter differently too.

I'm content with 92 though. I'm going to guess vorsprung will be twice the price too.

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## briggerh (Mar 13, 2018)

Junersun said:


> Probably the negative air spring volume each of them create. I'm sure they both determined the cap diameter differently too.
> 
> I'm content with 92 though. I'm going to guess vorsprung will be twice the price too.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Vorsprung does not work with the transfer shaft, 92's does.


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## remix84 (Oct 20, 2017)

They will release a compliant piston soon, according to their recent instagram post (fox 36 2015-2017)


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

briggerh said:


> The Vorsprung does not work with the transfer shaft, 92's does.


Steve has a piston coming shortly that works with the 2015-17 36 with a far larger negative air volume.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> Steve has a piston coming shortly that works with the 2015-17 36 with a far larger negative air volume.
> 
> View attachment 1188069


I want to think that if you are do the negative air chamber trick (works on anything less than 170 mm on a 180 fork) and you throw 92s piston on, you'd achieve about the same. Stevie does look like his mod takes into account the transfer shaft dimple for equalization much more straight forward.

I've been running that setup (thanks to you for the spacer mod) and have had no problems so far!

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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

With the number of mods that are now available, Fox should just sell their forks without any guts. Then you could get whatever you want and make the fork great the first time around. Right now, they're overpriced garbage that need extra money to have them work properly.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Although I partially agree with you Chris I don't have much of a problem with the damper side with it being RC2. Wish it was a R2C2 but there's no mod for that...

I certainly like the 36 damper more than the charger damper right now...


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

My problem is I had a 2015 model, which were known to have damper issues. I had that fixed under warranty, and the lowers replaced under warranty as well since the casting was fubar'd. Then the air spring...


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Christopher Robin said:


> My problem is I had a 2015 model, which were known to have damper issues. I had that fixed under warranty, and the lowers replaced under warranty as well since the casting was fubar'd. Then the air spring...


What damper prob and lowers did you have? Maybe I got lucky...

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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Junersun said:


> What damper prob and lowers did you have? Maybe I got lucky...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They didn't have damper issues, they just sold the first ones with a very stiff HSC tune.


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## ULEWZ (Dec 10, 2017)

My wife is 120lbs with the 2016 Fox Fit4 and was not happy, so I purchased a custom 92SER piston for her (not the standard piston due to her low weight). I rode the bike and loved the results, but she still didn't. $400 later, I installed the Push ACS-3 coil and she is now happy. Not a cheap fix, but worked for her.


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## RaggedEdge (Feb 18, 2004)

Glad to hear that Vorsprung is rolling out a 2016. I didn't read all 7 pages but has anyone tried the SD Components Dynamic Volume Chamber? I cannot get the small bump compliance where I want it and not bottom out and this looks like it will fix it.

https://flowmountainbike.com/tests/tested-sd-components-dvc/


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

RaggedEdge said:


> Glad to hear that Vorsprung is rolling out a 2016. I didn't read all 7 pages but has anyone tried the SD Components Dynamic Volume Chamber? I cannot get the small bump compliance where I want it and not bottom out and this looks like it will fix it.
> 
> https://flowmountainbike.com/tests/tested-sd-components-dvc/


That would only work on a 2018 fork or a 2015-17 fork fitted with the MRP fulfil valve so you can remove the transfer shaft.


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## RaggedEdge (Feb 18, 2004)

Thanks and the article mentioned another mod for the Fox. Any input on if its worth it?


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

Christopher Robin said:


> With the number of mods that are now available, Fox should just sell their forks without any guts. Then you could get whatever you want and make the fork great the first time around. Right now, they're overpriced garbage that need extra money to have them work properly.


Honestly they could still charge the same amount for them and people would still buy them!


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Rick Draper said:


> They didn't have damper issues, they just sold the first ones with a very stiff HSC tune.


Don't quite remember what the issue was but it would cause the damper to knock.


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

briggerh said:


> Are you running the stock transfer shaft or mrp kit?


Stock transfer


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## commplex (Apr 17, 2009)

Got my 92-SE piston in the mail today and immediately threw it on. I cannot believe how much of a difference it makes. Way less harsh and now my bike feels balanced which was my biggest gripe about the fox 36 prior to the mod. I was running 70psi and 6 clicks out but now I am at 95psi and 4 clicks out. Fork feels like butter. I hope it rides this way forever! 

ANOTHER happy 92-se mod guy here.


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## briggerh (Mar 13, 2018)

Trackho said:


> Stock transfer


Something has to be leaking slightly. The other thing I can think of major temperature changes. I am going to ask around.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Trackho said:


> Stock transfer


Are you compressing the fork fully, releasing any air pressure in the lowers then pumping it up to full extension?


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## Trackho (Sep 23, 2011)

Rick Draper said:


> Are you compressing the fork fully, releasing any air pressure in the lowers then pumping it up to full extension?


No-This was all covered a month ago. There is compressed air in the lowers at full extension. I do cycle the forks to get air out but zip ties are yanked at full extension. The "looseness/harshness" is most noticeable at full extension whilst climbing. Bushings/other have all been checked. Not a big performance issue- just bugs me


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Trackho said:


> No-This was all covered a month ago. There is compressed air in the lowers at full extension. I do cycle the forks to get air out but zip ties are yanked at full extension. The "looseness/harshness" is most noticeable at full extension whilst climbing. Bushings/other have all been checked. Not a big performance issue- just bugs me


So you need to rebuild the air spring as its leaking slowly.


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## mideas (Feb 22, 2018)

Another 92-se mod revelation - the harshness is gone.

Prior to the mod, I did the lowers service, installed SKF (green) wipers and immediately did a test run on a (very) rooty / rock garden trail, followed by a section with a lot of small bumps...a different fork.

At the moment, I don't have any need to further mess with it apart of fiddling a bit more with the settings - it does need a different setup as before - another challenge.


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## DawnVoyager (Jan 28, 2017)

FYI Vorsprung has just released their Luftkappe for the 2015-2017 NA Float 36's. It replaces a too fat stock piston with one that fits better and adds negative chamber volume. It works with the existing transfer shaft, like the 92SE-R unit and unlike the MRP independent air chamber mod. I guess the MRP has the advantage of getting rid of problems/stiction associated with the transfer shaft, and 92SE-R and Vorsprung deal with piston stiction. I just ordered the Luftkappe and have hopes this will make my wooden 2017 fork work more like the old 2009 it replaced.


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

Which of the three options, 92SE-R, Luftkappe, or MRP negative air shaft is the best option? I've been riding my '17 36 for about a month now and to say it is harsh is an understatement.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

askibum02 said:


> Which of the three options, 92SE-R, Luftkappe, or MRP negative air shaft is the best option? I've been riding my '17 36 for about a month now and to say it is harsh is an understatement.


Although I don't have any plans to get the luftkappe since I use the 92 piston at 160 mm with one negative spacer removed, achieving close enough what luftkappe is doing at about half the price, I would be interest if anyone ends up doing both.

I can't imagine the difference being game changing. Big benefit I see luftkappe is that custom negative spacer which would allow you to open the negative space even at 180 mm travel.

No experience on mrp but a few people here are running both mrp and 92 piston

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## chuckiebruster (Dec 5, 2016)

Get the MRP kit and a piston. MRP Ramp control is great, the negative air adjustment is great, and the piston helps a ton too. You may get away with a properly specced o-ring on the piston too.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Junersun said:


> Although I don't have any plans to get the luftkappe since I use the 92 piston at 160 mm with one negative spacer removed, achieving close enough what luftkappe is doing at about half the price, I would be interest if anyone ends up doing both.
> 
> I can't imagine the difference being game changing. Big benefit I see luftkappe is that custom negative spacer which would allow you to open the negative space even at 180 mm travel.
> 
> ...


Vorsprung piston is limited to 150-170mm travel.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> Vorsprung piston is limited to 150-170mm travel.


Oh good catch. Well... everyone be their own judge with this. I'm pretty happy with 92 + negative spacer removal.

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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

I have a 92SE-R piston to sell if someone needs one - $25


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Junersun said:


> Oh good catch. Well... everyone be their own judge with this. I'm pretty happy with 92 + negative spacer removal.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dont know the reasoning, hopefully Steve will say why soon!


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

djjohnr said:


> I have a 92SE-R piston to sell if someone needs one - $25


Pm you

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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Rick Draper said:


> Dont know the reasoning, hopefully Steve will say why soon!


Update: we were still double checking a few things with the travel limits. Anywhere from 180 to 120mm is fine


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Thanks for the update Steve!


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

I know it just came out, but has anyone installed a Luftkappe for a '17 36 yet? I'm happy with everything on my fork except small bump compliance, it's very harsh on the little stuff. Trying to decide between this, the MRP FullFill upgrade, and the 92SE-R piston. I may or may not have asked this already, what are the advantages or disadvantages of each? I know in the end they all do the same thing, increase negative air volume, but which one would offer the best bank for the buck? I don't think I need to go whole hog on the MRP ramp control, ramp up is good with just the spacers.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

askibum02 said:


> I know it just came out, but has anyone installed a Luftkappe for a '17 36 yet? I'm happy with everything on my fork except small bump compliance, it's very harsh on the little stuff. Trying to decide between this, the MRP FullFill upgrade, and the 92SE-R piston. I may or may not have asked this already, what are the advantages or disadvantages of each? I know in the end they all do the same thing, increase negative air volume, but which one would offer the best bank for the buck? I don't think I need to go whole hog on the MRP ramp control, ramp up is good with just the spacers.


you're missing the other half of what the MRP ramp control does for the fox fork which is get rid of the weak negative air transfer rod and replaces it with a completely separate negative chamber where you can control the air pressure. this means you can make it as soft as you want to on the beginning stroke. you're also eliminating another set of seals that the air transfer shaft has to slide through which reduces stiction. i put the MRP kit in my fork and it was night and day.


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

justin83 said:


> you're missing the other half of what the MRP ramp control does for the fox fork which is get rid of the weak negative air transfer rod and replaces it with a completely separate negative chamber where you can control the air pressure. this means you can make it as soft as you want to on the beginning stroke. you're also eliminating another set of seals that the air transfer shaft has to slide through which reduces stiction. i put the MRP kit in my fork and it was night and day.


That's the only part I was interested in, the negative air chamber/valve. I don't need the ramp cartridge.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

justin83 said:


> you're missing the other half of what the MRP ramp control does for the fox fork which is get rid of the weak negative air transfer rod and replaces it with a completely separate negative chamber where you can control the air pressure. this means you can make it as soft as you want to on the beginning stroke. you're also eliminating another set of seals that the air transfer shaft has to slide through which reduces stiction. i put the MRP kit in my fork and it was night and day.


Can you explain why the transfer shaft design is weak? I'm not defending it, just want to understand more why I should get a mrp valve myself.

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## Dagonger (Dec 8, 2011)

I just had my 2016 Fox 36 160mm RC2 full dampner serviced and Luftkappe installed by Full Flow Suspensions, Auburn, CA yesterday. Great service and quick 2 days. First ride tomorrow in loamy Santa Cruz mtns...will report back


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Anyone here play with the mrp +\- air chamber mod with the 92 piston? Any problems with getting the bolt installed inside the 92 piston head?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

A lot of people here have used the MRP valve kit with my piston with great success. I really like the combo and it allows you to have a very compliant and linear setup


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

Hey folks,

I've scanned the whole thread but since english is not my native lang I struggle with all these tech terms, so:
I have a "naked" (non-tuned) 2016er Fox 36 FIT4 and I'm looking for anything which improves the small pumb sens (primarly). I don't wanna cram the fork with every tuning available on the market but just check if I can work on the thing above with less investment (I'll also install the low-fric SKFs soon).

Any recommendations?


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## remix84 (Oct 20, 2017)

Go for a new piston only then. Luftkappe or 92SE-R.


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

thanks man, I wrote 92SE.
I'm a bit confused about the Luftkappe: it's available in the shop for 36 NA in the dropdown menu, but in the installation guide:


> NA stands for Negative Air... These were used in 2015-17 36 Floats ... all NA spring systems are NOT compatible with the Luftkappes.


:idea:


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## remix84 (Oct 20, 2017)

I think they did not update this installation page.

Concerning questions on compatibility with tuning kits, I'm running with MRP kit and 92SE-R without issues. Additionally, I removed one spacer to get 180mm. Then negative chamber is filled to get around 170mm.


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## DawnVoyager (Jan 28, 2017)

Since you have a FIT4 damper, for completeness I'll mention this product, which converts your 3 click compression control to a genuine HSC: https://vorsprungsuspension.com/collections/frontpage/products/fox-fit4-piston-kit

Check compatibility as it looks like it only works with Factory, not Performance 36.

By far your first priority should be to improve the air spring first though-- 92SE-R or Luftkappe piston kit. On the latter, the product definitely exists for the 2015-17 NA airspring (I have one) but instructions haven't been updated yet-- Steve says he'll be doing that "really soon". 
. 


aenduro said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> I've scanned the whole thread but since english is not my native lang I struggle with all these tech terms, so:
> I have a "naked" (non-tuned) 2016er Fox 36 FIT4 and I'm looking for anything which improves the small pumb sens (primarly). I don't wanna cram the fork with every tuning available on the market but just check if I can work on the thing above with less investment (I'll also install the low-fric SKFs soon).
> ...


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## aenduro (May 29, 2013)

DawnVoyager said:


> Since you have a FIT4 damper, for completeness I'll mention this product, which converts your 3 click compression control to a genuine HSC ...
> By far your first priority should be to improve the air spring first though-- 92SE-R or Luftkappe piston kit. ...
> .


Exactly this!
I first came across the new Vorsprung fractive tuning, then I came here (know this thread since a while) for eventually further tuning infos and read about the 92SE - which will most probably please my primary needs. The hsc update might be the next update.

Btw, love this thread with all its knowledge and helpful ppl!


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## DawnVoyager (Jan 28, 2017)

Instructions / details for the 2015-17 NA Luftkappe are now available on the Vorsprung website. Steve should hire me as his publicist.


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## Dagonger (Dec 8, 2011)

yeti575inCA said:


> I just had my 2016 Fox 36 160mm RC2 full dampner serviced and Luftkappe installed by Full Flow Suspensions, Auburn, CA yesterday. Great service and quick 2 days. First ride tomorrow in loamy Santa Cruz mtns...will report back


First ride Sun in Santa Cruz loam and trails I have been familiar with and ridden many times...Luftkappe made enough noticeable difference. mid stroke support was great, increase in small bump and increase in traction. I pr a trail by 4 seconds due to the traction and confidence from the new modified fork. I didnt touch my hsc/lsc or hsr/lsr from prior to the install. I did remove 1 token (ran 3 now at 2) and psi stayed the same....


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## notphaedrus (Mar 19, 2016)

Interesting Steve VS ..... When I showed you photos of my prototype of the fox 36 negative plate that I had been tuning in my fork to increase negative volume, you said 'it will be excessively progressive'. Then 2 years later you make one which is functionally exactly the same! Hmmm... Lol


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

I just ordered my 92SE-R piston. Does anyone have install instructions and or video?


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## Duffman1976 (Aug 27, 2015)

askibum02 said:


> I just ordered my 92SE-R piston. Does anyone have install instructions and or video?


It will come with written installation instructions. It's pretty straightforward.


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## Buggyr333 (Apr 8, 2010)

So I have a 36 that I have put the 92se piston head in, and it for sure was a night and day difference in plushness off the top if the travel, when bouncing the fork stationary there is almost no friction off the top. What is strange though, is while riding, when the fork is at the sag point and I hit a small bump, the fork almost feels locked out. When I hit a larger bump or if I push on the fork, it feels as plush as expected.

Upon closer inspection, the fork does move slightly on the small hits, but only a tiny amount, not enough to effectively absorb the hit. I'm thinking it's something with the damper, since the air spring itself is super plush (like seriously, no friction off the top). Might be overdamped as some have reported. Any suggested fixes for that?

I'm pretty over Fox, this is my second 36 to have issues like this. The lyrik on my other bike is way better in every way.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

See if the damper is overfilled.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Buggyr333 said:


> So I have a 36 that I have put the 92se piston head in, and it for sure was a night and day difference in plushness off the top if the travel, when bouncing the fork stationary there is almost no friction off the top. What is strange though, is while riding, when the fork is at the sag point and I hit a small bump, the fork almost feels locked out. When I hit a larger bump or if I push on the fork, it feels as plush as expected.
> 
> Upon closer inspection, the fork does move slightly on the small hits, but only a tiny amount, not enough to effectively absorb the hit. I'm thinking it's something with the damper, since the air spring itself is super plush (like seriously, no friction off the top). Might be overdamped as some have reported. Any suggested fixes for that?
> 
> I'm pretty over Fox again, this is my second 36 to have issues like this. The lyrik on my other bike is way better in every way.


You can quickly check the damper by making sure it's fully extended and then breaking open the fill port. If oil gushes out it was probably overfilled...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Junersun said:


> You can quickly check the damper by making sure it's fully extended and then breaking open the fill port. If oil gushes out it was probably overfilled...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You cannot check this without removing the lowers or undoing the damper from the CSU to fully extend it.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> You cannot check this without removing the lowers or undoing the damper from the CSU to fully extend it.


Good point. In my mind that was pretty quick job

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

The other thing is the damper can only become overfilled by sucking up lower leg fluid which all sealed cartridge dampers will do with use. If its got a swollen bladder then you want to strip it and rebuild it as the damper will have ingested some lower leg fluid (20wt gold if Fox oil is used) and you really want to get that out of the damper.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

I’ve replaced a few MRP fulfill kits with a luftkappe and got great feedback, going back to only using 1 valve for adjustment is a huge benefit to me as well as the better performance from the larger neg chamber


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

JohnnyC7 said:


> I've replaced a few MRP fulfill kits with a luftkappe and got great feedback, going back to only using 1 valve for adjustment is a huge benefit to me as well as the better performance from the larger neg chamber


Why replace them? You can run both Luftkappe and MRP Fulfill in the NA1 forks.

There is a bolt compatibility issue. But its solvable.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Dougal said:


> Why replace them? You can run both Luftkappe and MRP Fulfill in the NA1 forks.
> 
> There is a bolt compatibility issue. But its solvable.


Because multiple valves confuse a lot of people


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Because multiple valves confuse a lot of people


Just tell them to set them both the same. Because realistically that's all you can do anyway.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Dougal said:


> Just tell them to set them both the same. Because realistically that's all you can do anyway.


Then there's no point having it? And if they go to change pressure and do it in the wrong order boom they have a fork with 50% travel.

You would be amazed at the level of mechanical ability in the people we see


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Then there's no point having it? And if they go to change pressure and do it in the wrong order boom they have a fork with 50% travel.


It has reduced seal friction and more tuning options. Including being able to set travel wherever you want it externally.

It's not for everyone but those who want it really appreciate it.



JohnnyC7 said:


> You would be amazed at the level of mechanical ability in the people we see


Probably not. Most of us have worked retail.


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## Haim (Jun 21, 2017)

I think you can set it up with a larger negative chamber with benefits of something like the luftkappe. I do that on mine initially by getting the chambers to equalise at the same pressure, takes a bit of time but gradually add more air to the negative chamber until it equals the positive chamber psi and the air piston stops moving, you are now at equilibrium, then add more pressure to the negative chamber (in my case 3-4psi). The system will equalise again but at a slightly higher psi and a larger negative chamber. Works well and I lose very little travel.


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## rhynohead (Jun 4, 2009)

real quick: Is the consensus to use SKF seals over the Fox factory ones? Will be doing a lower service soon


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

rhynohead said:


> real quick: Is the consensus to use SKF seals over the Fox factory ones? Will be doing a lower service soon


I do when I work on any fox fork.


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## Haim (Jun 21, 2017)

Rick I have a question- I thought the Fox Factory seals are now made by SKF too (black seals) and the SKF green seals were basically the same with some extra additive for a bit less friction- I have both the black and green on various forks and I don’t notice a difference- is there one in your opinion?


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Haim said:


> Rick I have a question- I thought the Fox Factory seals are now made by SKF too (black seals) and the SKF green seals were basically the same with some extra additive for a bit less friction- I have both the black and green on various forks and I don't notice a difference- is there one in your opinion?


No real noticeable difference IMHO. SKF make them for Fox, in a lab it might be the SKF green material is X% slippier than the fox but on the trail you would not notice it.

Depending on where you are in the world one might be cheaper than the other.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I think the killer combination if you want to stay air, is the green skf seals, not factory black skf seals, and my piston or the luftkappe piston, and the mrp fulfill valve. You can get a really linear spring rate with the extra volume and extra pressure in negative spring, with some good support and ramp up. I also find the green skf seals to be a lower durometer material than the black skf seals. My theory about pressurized lowers is that the softer green seals trap less air in the lowers. This combo can basically get you a fork where there is virtually no initial force required to get the fork moving with a very tuneable spring rate.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

92se-r knows his stuff. I’ve heard a lot other knowledgeable people say they don’t make a difference. Also the air spring seals have like 100x more stiction. So if you’re getting a benefit is likely like 92 says, less trapped air. One is likely better at not allowing dirt into the lowers too, but idk which.


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## steveveevee (Mar 7, 2018)

Gotta say I only joined this site because of 92se-r. I didn't know what would fix the stiction issues I was having=harshness and after installing his piston 250mi ago I can definitely say its the best fork I've had. Settings have completely changed and I mean completely, this fork runs better in trail mode(with piston mod) than it did before wide open with not enough rebound. Glad I finally get to thank him here, thought this post might have been dead by now


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

My first ride on my 92SE-R piston. What a difference! It was only five miles but I could actually feel the fork working on the rocky trail instead of feeling it in my hands and wrists.


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## chuckiebruster (Dec 5, 2016)

I installed the Grip2 cart on my 2016 with 92SE-R piston and MRP negative chamber/ramp control.

I was able to take a lot of sting out with the piston and MRP setup. Dumping the fit4 has completely removed all harshness from my 36. The Grip2 is much easier on the hands. Very smooth, no spiking, no diving. For $300, it was a great upgrade to a fork that I already invested a bit of time and money into.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

chuckiebruster said:


> I installed the Grip2 cart on my 2016 with 92SE-R piston and MRP negative chamber/ramp control.
> 
> I was able to take a lot of sting out with the piston and MRP setup. Dumping the fit4 has completely removed all harshness from my 36. The Grip2 is much easier on the hands. Very smooth, no spiking, no diving. For $300, it was a great upgrade to a fork that I already invested a bit of time and money into.


Why did you go this route over getting your fit 4 tuned?


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## chuckiebruster (Dec 5, 2016)

PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> Why did you go this route over getting your fit 4 tuned?


I wasn't totally sold on the tuning. After hearing feedback regarding the difference between the RC2 and Grip2 - I was willing to give it a shot rather than put lipstick on a pig.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

chuckiebruster said:


> I wasn't totally sold on the tuning. After hearing feedback regarding the difference between the RC2 and Grip2 - I was willing to give it a shot rather than put lipstick on a pig.


Did you just call fox for the new damper? Is it a easy drop in replacement part?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Junersun said:


> Did you just call fox for the new damper? Is it a easy drop in replacement part?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, you need to really clean the lowers throughly of 20wt gold though.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

So you paid $300 for the entire damper assembly through your lbs? Sounds like a pretty good deal. Especially cause you could probably sell your stock damper for a decent amount. Do you know if there is a light or heavy tune available in addition to a standard?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rick Draper said:


> Yes, you need to really clean the lowers throughly of 20wt gold though.


You're not using that teflon 5wt are you?


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## chuckiebruster (Dec 5, 2016)

I picked my cart up from Fanatik. I didn't see any options for alternative tunes (light or heavy).

Dougal, what's up with the 5wt? I used it as bath oil as instructed on Fox's website (40cc's).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

chuckiebruster said:


> Dougal, what's up with the 5wt? I used it as bath oil as instructed on Fox's website (40cc's).


It's pointless. The grip dampers don't have any more or less oil migration in/out of the cartridge than any other cartridge damper. Just use damper oil in the damper and bath oil in the bath.

Teflon doesn't float in oil and it makes oil recycling a PITA. That 5wt is also neither a good bath or damper oil.


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## chuckiebruster (Dec 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> It's pointless. The grip dampers don't have any more or less oil migration in/out of the cartridge than any other cartridge damper. Just use damper oil in the damper and bath oil in the bath.
> 
> Teflon doesn't float in oil and it makes oil recycling a PITA. That 5wt is also neither a good bath or damper oil.


Interesting - what about the hole near the top of the cartridge. Oil squirts out of the port (don't ask how i know )


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

chuckiebruster said:


> Interesting - what about the hole near the top of the cartridge. Oil squirts out of the port (don't ask how i know )


Oil squirts out when it's had too much migrate in. So you gain 0.5cc of bath oil over 3 months and you'll squirt out 0.5cc out the top (if the damper was already full to that point).

You might need to ingest 2 or 3cc before it squirts out the top. It may never happen.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Teflon is a terrible additive, that stems from snake oil in the 80s. Its a solid particulate that separates from oil. I bet Marzocchi 7.5wt open bath oil, same as Golden Spectro, would work decent.


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## chuckiebruster (Dec 5, 2016)

92SE-R said:


> Teflon is a terrible additive, that stems from snake oil in the 80s. Its a solid particulate that separates from oil. I bet Marzocchi 7.5wt open bath oil, same as Golden Spectro, would work decent.


I'll keep that in mind when I change the oil in a few months.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Dougal said:


> You're not using that teflon 5wt are you?


Nope I use maxima.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Do you guys find the Maxima 5wt has enough tackifiers to stick to the bushings?


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

92SE-R said:


> Do you guys find the Maxima 5wt has enough tackifiers to stick to the bushings?


I use Maxima 10wt.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

How do you find it performance wise as a lower lube? Do the bushings feel dry when u drop the lowers?


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

92SE-R said:


> How do you find it performance wise as a lower lube? Do the bushings feel dry when u drop the lowers?


Feels good and doesn't thicken up like 20wt in the cold weather.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Good to know. Lately my go to has been Fox 20wt with Maxima Assembly Lube. However i am in socal so 50 degrees is colf weather. Im always open to alternatives


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

92SE-R said:


> Good to know. Lately my go to has been Fox 20wt with Maxima Assembly Lube. However i am in socal so 50 degrees is colf weather. Im always open to alternatives


I was using Fox 10wt green in the lowers but have moved to the maxima as both are less effected by temperature change.


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## jsnowut (Jan 5, 2010)

92SE-R said:


> I think the killer combination if you want to stay air, is the green skf seals, not factory black skf seals, and my piston or the luftkappe piston, and the mrp fulfill valve. You can get a really linear spring rate with the extra volume and extra pressure in negative spring, with some good support and ramp up. I also find the green skf seals to be a lower durometer material than the black skf seals. My theory about pressurized lowers is that the softer green seals trap less air in the lowers. This combo can basically get you a fork where there is virtually no initial force required to get the fork moving with a very tuneable spring rate.


Sorry to be dense - but I am one of the many pilgrims seeking awesome performance out of this fork - please confirm if my understanding is correct:

1. replace the piston with either 92SE-R or Luftkappe custom piston. This reduces stiction and allows more responsive air spring action.

2. install MRP fulfill valve - this allows a separate negative air spring and a greater amount of negative air spring can be added to allow the fork to push down better into negative trail spaces/bumps.

3. SKF green seals - helps keep positive air in the positive air chamber.

Ok, help me out if I have gone off the rails anywhere thanks!


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Rick Draper said:


> I was using Fox 10wt green in the lowers but have moved to the maxima as both are less effected by temperature change.


I've used Xfusion's Pure Slick Fluid on my last few lower services, it doesn't dry out and sticks to the bushings. Xfusion says to add 5cc above the air piston, which I think keeps it feeling fresh a little longer.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

jsnowut said:


> Sorry to be dense - but I am one of the many pilgrims seeking awesome performance out of this fork - please confirm if my understanding is correct:
> 
> 1. replace the piston with either 92SE-R or Luftkappe custom piston. This reduces stiction and allows more responsive air spring action.
> 
> ...


You're correct in three things that will improve the performance but the reasoning is a little off. I'd suggest looking for labeled diagrams of fork assemblies or some cut away type videos so you can get the idea of how the thing works. Especially try to understand how the air spring works, cuz that's what you'll be addressing with points 1 and 2.

1. 
2. No. The goal is to help the fork move into its travel with less stiction. The valve allows you to manually add or reduce air from the negative side of the air spring. If you add more air it will push the piston up the station and move the fork into its travel. 
3. No. The goal is to keep the lowers from becoming pressurized. The lowers should have ambient air pressure. As the fork is used air can be sucked into the lowers through the wipers and get trapped, pressurizing the lowers. The green seals might help keep air out. You were thinking of a different problem, of air within the spring (positive or negative) migrating out of the air spring into the lowers. Solving this problem requires an air spring assembly rebuild.


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## jsnowut (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks for clarifying - let me try to dumb it down a bit more:

If I ride straight into something like a curb and the shock absorbs it like butter, but then roll over a V indent in the road and it feels like I road over a train track on a road bike - what explains that? 

I thought it was because the negative pressure in the shock wasn't pushing the wheel down to stay in contact with the surface - but sounds like that's not it.

Thanks again!


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## zhendo (Aug 31, 2011)

jsnowut said:


> Thanks for clarifying - let me try to dumb it down a bit more:
> 
> If I ride straight into something like a curb and the shock absorbs it like butter, but then roll over a V indent in the road and it feels like I road over a train track on a road bike - what explains that?
> 
> ...


Negative pressure doesn't push on the wheel at all - negative pressure is an opposing force to the positive air spring (bigger spring that supports your weight) and helps to overcome initial stiction and resistance inherent in air spring designs. This top-end assistance helps move the shock into its travel in the early travel, making the shock feel more plush and sensitive off the top.

When you're running into a curb, especially at speed, you're blowing through the early travel, and the force of the impact is past the point where the initial sensitivity from the larger negative spring might help. In the case of running over smaller bumps, you won't use much travel, so the added sensitivity at the top of the stroke from the negative spring will have an effect. You can also reduce low speed compression damping for more sensitivity over small bumps.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I think pressure buildup in the lowers is caused by off-gassing from oils. That's why even the damper side will have pressure build up. I'm not a chemist though so I don't really know


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

92SE-R said:


> I think pressure buildup in the lowers is caused by off-gassing from oils. That's why even the damper side will have pressure build up. I'm not a chemist though so I don't really know


Interesting hypothesis


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## meamadbiker (Jun 14, 2018)

*piston*



nightnerd said:


> I have a 92SE piston for sale if anyone is interested. Just sold the 36 it was in so I have no more use for it. Just Pm me.


yes ill buy it


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

I would think bottles of oil would explode in Autozone if this were the case considering there's only 10-30cc of oil in lowers.  I've never opened a pressurized bottle of oil.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Oil sitting on a shelf is much different than the high temps and cavitation it sees in use, where oil starts breaking down.


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

Bath oil in the lowers experiences high temps and cavitation??


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Maybe less so with cavitation, but you definitely get hot spots at the bushings. Its not like the old Marzocchi open bath forks where they get 100-200cc oil baths. Modern forks have 20-30cc of oil in the lowers so yes, i believe the oil breaks down faster.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Also, just to clarify, im not really 100% convinced on what is causing the buildup in lowers, both in the air side and the damper side. Im just floating a theory and have no data to back this up.


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## jsnowut (Jan 5, 2010)

Just wanted to express thanks to those that replied to my request for confirmation of what turns out to be a lack of understanding of how my fork works. Good to know how much I don't know.

Thanks!!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

92SE-R said:


> I think pressure buildup in the lowers is caused by off-gassing from oils. That's why even the damper side will have pressure build up. I'm not a chemist though so I don't really know


Yes that happens. It happens most with elevated temperatures: Installed motocross fork air bleeders in my Fox 36.- Mtbr.com

Bath oil is usually a very small contributor. Due to the small volume of oil. Oil naturally contains about 8% air by volume. Unless vacuum degassed.


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

Two very quick questions please for those who know...

Would I notice any difference in damping between a 15cst and 16cst fluid in my open bath damper ?

Can I remove some material from my air shaft black bump stop to get back to 180mm travel ? Currently have MRP pos neg air kit and 92SE-R piston, its only at max 175mm ?

Thanks in advance

Richie


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

karpiel said:


> Can I remove some material from my air shaft black bump stop to get back to 180mm travel ? Currently have MRP pos neg air kit and 92SE-R piston, its only at max 175mm ?


Likely you aren't on the bump stop. I guess you are running more air pressure in the negative air chamber than the positive?


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

Rick Draper said:


> Likely you aren't on the bump stop. I guess you are running more air pressure in the negative air chamber than the positive?


Nope, this is whilst I was reassembling after an oil change, pumped up pos air to fully extend air shaft, reinstalled lowers, nothing in neg air side, I guessing its something to do with compatability between the different parts ?


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

karpiel said:


> Nope, this is whilst I was reassembling after an oil change, pumped up pos air to fully extend air shaft, reinstalled lowers, nothing in neg air side, I guessing its something to do with compatability between the different parts ?


Sorry folks, dont mind me I still had one negative plate spacer in, oops !


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## alan1 (Mar 22, 2007)

First time out on my bike after fitting the 92se piston, what a difference this is how the fork should work


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## 1SlowSLC (Jun 20, 2018)

Hello, this is my first post as a member to this site. Just got a new bike and it came with the fox 36 fork. Its a 2017 model.

I have not ridden the bike as of yet, still ordering pieces to complete the build. I am reading here about this fork, and I want to improve on the fork, since I have ordered RWC needle bearings for the shock as well. I feel the best place to improve the bike is suspension performance.

Can I get 92se's piston, a MRP ramp control, and the grip 2 damper upgrade and use them all together? What is the difference from the MRP ramp control kit and the MRP fulfill valve?

I figure while I'm in there working on the fork, replace everything I can at once to improve performance. I will be PMing 92SE very soon to get the first piece of the puzzle.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

@1slowslc I am no expert but the two mrp offerings are very different. Do you know how volume spacers work? If not google it. Their ramp control is basically an externally adjustable volume spacer. Many people, myself included, do not like using volume spacers for tuning as it’s more of a bandaid than a solution and requires you make a trade off. I prefer to use no spacers then use psi to control bottom out, but if you try his on a shitty air spring like the stock one the fork will feel too harsh on small hits and misc trail chatter. Back to volume spacers the 92ser piston is going to make the end of the spring rate increase, like 2 volume spacers would. Also the ramp control cart set to the lowest amount of ramp up will still be like adding a couple volume spacers. So you will have a very progressive spring rate with that set up. All of this, of course, changes with the travel of the fork: if this is a long travel fork, about 150mm or more the above should hold true, if your fork is shorter travel some number of volume spacers are needed and the ramp control may be nice to have. The fulfill valve simply allows you to pressurize the negative spring to your desired psi. Stock the fork will equalize the pressure between the pos and neg springs.


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## MarinCRO (Jul 31, 2013)

To refresh this thread a bit.

I've ordered Luftkappe for my 2017 NA 36 and I'll see how it goes. 
So far, everyone here seems to be happy with it compared to stock. 

Can anyone tell me about the seals and whether I can use fox seal kit on Luftkappe when I have to change them? 

I'm running the fork on Pivot Switchblade and was wondering if I should set it up to 160mm instead of 150mm travel because people say the Luftkappe sags more.

How happy are you guys with it? Are there any negatives that were not evident at first? How are seals holding and is there air leak?


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## yemff (Feb 18, 2018)

Delete


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## 1SlowSLC (Jun 20, 2018)

Bringing this topic back up with some new ideas....

I purchased the neg. volume piston from 92ser. It helped make the fork function better. Now it has me wondering if there is another way to add even more neg. air volume.

I've been looking over the fork schematics on the fox webpage, and my thought is, why not modify the bottom seal or top out bumper assembly to add more neg. air volume?

Looks as though it would be doable. I am a machinist, with access to regular and cnc machines, so reverse engineering/redesigning the internals should be a pretty simple task.

Anyone of the suspension experts in here have any input or advice on this possibility?


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## ripn (Mar 31, 2004)

The Vorsprung Luftkappe increases the negative volume like you describe. Works great.


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## 1SlowSLC (Jun 20, 2018)

ripn said:


> The Vorsprung Luftkappe increases the negative volume like you describe. Works great.


Yes I know. I have a special piston installed that increases neg. volume, similar to a luftkappe. I'm looking for more volume by modifying or replacing the other internals inside the negative air chamber to squeeze out a bit more volume without changing the actual "length" that the negative chamber encompasses. (Unless the length can be changed, not really 100% sure on how all the internals react, that's why I posted here to get some info.)

https://www.ridefox.com/fox17/img/help/page862-6YKG/2019-36-Air-Spring-Assemblies.jpg

https://www.ridefox.com/fox17/img/help/page862-6YKG/2019-36-Air-Shaft-Assemblies.jpg

In these pictures I am looking to modify or remake the topout spacer, topout bumper, or negative plate subassembly to get more volume in that area, and increase small bump compliance. Its worth a shot, worst that can happen is it doesn't work favorably, and I return it back to its previous configuration.


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## yemff (Feb 18, 2018)

1SlowSLC said:


> Yes I know. I have a special piston installed that increases neg. volume, similar to a luftkappe. I'm looking for more volume by modifying or replacing the other internals inside the negative air chamber to squeeze out a bit more volume without changing the actual "length" that the negative chamber encompasses. (Unless the length can be changed, not really 100% sure on how all the internals react, that's why I posted here to get some info.)
> 
> https://www.ridefox.com/fox17/img/help/page862-6YKG/2019-36-Air-Spring-Assemblies.jpg
> 
> ...


what travel is your current fork?


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## 1SlowSLC (Jun 20, 2018)

yemff said:


> what travel is your current fork?


160mm. I have no tokens installed, MRP fulfill valve to separate pos. and neg. chamber, which also eliminates the transfer shaft, and 92ser's piston (which increases neg chamber volume).... just looking for more neg. volume/small bump compliance.

If this doesn't work, Ill probably go with the ACS coil setup from PUSH.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

You shouldnt be having small bump sensitivity issues still. Have you played around with rebound settings after the piston?


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## 1SlowSLC (Jun 20, 2018)

92SE-R said:


> You shouldnt be having small bump sensitivity issues still. Have you played around with rebound settings after the piston?


I have tuned it some, but not totally sure what I should be doing. I have 2 clicks in from open on compression to keep it from bobbing too much while pedaling. What should I do with rebound?

And what do you think about my ideas to increase the negative chamber more? I don't think it would hurt things, only make it better. What's your opinion on my ideas for remaking other internals of the negative chamber to increase its volume?


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

I have found that some can mistake harshness to be due to lack of small bump sensitivity. This includes me. It was an eye opener for me once I was able to start really tuning the fork after getting rid of the stiction, how much rebound affects the feel of harshness. I found myself running much less rebound, and literally 2 clicks can make a big difference between harshness on rocky stuff and the fork feeling completely plush. When you start packing up, you lose small bump sensitivity because subsequent hits are deeper into the forks travel, at a higher spring rate.


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## 1SlowSLC (Jun 20, 2018)

Ok, I get all of that. 

So which way should I be adjusting my rebound? More or less? Do you find after installing the new piston you increase or decrease rebound compared to how it was setup with the stock piston?


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

1SlowSLC said:


> Yes I know. I have a special piston installed that increases neg. volume, similar to a luftkappe. I'm looking for more volume by modifying or replacing the other internals inside the negative air chamber to squeeze out a bit more volume without changing the actual "length" that the negative chamber encompasses. (Unless the length can be changed, not really 100% sure on how all the internals react, that's why I posted here to get some info.)
> 
> https://www.ridefox.com/fox17/img/help/page862-6YKG/2019-36-Air-Spring-Assemblies.jpg
> 
> ...


The Vorsprung kit replaces the negative plate tube that screws into the negative plate assembly with one thats a lot shallower than the Fox one to further increase negative air volume.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

What air pressure are you running? How much do you weigh?


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## yemff (Feb 18, 2018)

Since you have the MRP you could play with your pressures to increase your negative volume, this of course decreases travel but might give you some idea to the feel with a larger negative spring volume.

There are various other ways to increase negative spring volume, personally I put an EVOL airspring and the MRP fulfill in my 2017 fork. I can adjust fork travel and negative volume by adjusting the positive and negative air pressure.


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## 1SlowSLC (Jun 20, 2018)

92SE-R said:


> What air pressure are you running? How much do you weigh?


I have 60psi in positive chamber, 55 in neg. I weigh 155lbs.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Put 65 in the negative chamber. From full out(completely counter clockwise), how many clicks of rebound?


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## 1SlowSLC (Jun 20, 2018)

5 clicks in from full open for rebound.

And I was mistaken ine the psi. I have 55psi in positive and 60psi in negative.

EDIT: had negative and positive pressures backwards... have more in neg. then the positive


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Put more pressure in negative chamber. Use 1 or 2 clicks rebound from full open


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## MarinCRO (Jul 31, 2013)

So, I finally got to install Luftkappe on my MY17 36.

It's not difficult at all but I can't say I noticed huge difference in a parking lot test. I rode it just once in trails but so far it seems smoother but this could just be from fresh service... 

What I noticed is that the fork is sucked down now and there's only ~14cm of available travel (measured like before to the top of Kashima lettering).

No, it's not sag under weight because when I lift the front end up with one hand and pull on the lowers with the other, I can extend it by around 1-1.5cm but it goes back in as soon as I let go.

Furthermore, pressure equalization didn't really happen in an instant when it reached the equalization point but it took literally some jumping on the bike to get it to equalize. 

Looking at MRP Fulfill upgrade, I can't see a reason it wouldn't work with Luftkappe, or am I wrong?


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## greginaz (Oct 14, 2008)

Got my 92SE-R piston installed over the weekend. You can see the Factory one in white, and I am holding it in the position it would be in, so you can see the extra volume the negative chamber gets. The diameter of his piston was also smaller by a pretty significant number as well. I haven't ridden it yet, but seeing that the changes are obvious, and what everyone else has said, I expect the same results. I'll find out tomorrow morning!


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

greginaz said:


> Got my 92SE-R piston installed over the weekend. You can see the Factory one in white, and I am holding it in the position it would be in, so you can see the extra volume the negative chamber gets. The diameter of his piston was also smaller by a pretty significant number as well. I haven't ridden it yet, but seeing that the changes are obvious, and what everyone else has said, I expect the same results. I'll find out tomorrow morning!
> 
> View attachment 1215877


I have he 92SE-R piston installed too, and it does feel much better than stock. I think the improvement is due to reduction of the seal drag. Overall increase in negative chamber volume is very small. If you remove one of the travel spacers from the lower air assembly, but keep the transfer shaft rod in the same place, you get the increase in negative chamber volume (assuming you're not at max travel already)


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## MarinCRO (Jul 31, 2013)

Ok, so I've installed Vorsprung Luftkappe and as it was due for small service anyway, I changed the bath oil and lubed everything up.

First time I aired the fork up it was sagging in it's travel about 1cm and I went for a ride hoping it would fix on it's own. The fork behaved much better than before, more supple definitely.

Then as it didn't fix it, I removed the air transfer shaft and obviously normalized both negative and positive chambers to ambient air pressure by doing so. To my disbelief, the fork stayed sucked down and would stay like that even if I pulled on the lowers to extend them.*

This meant there was 3rd air chamber somewhere, causing vacuum and I did the zip tie trick on both air and damper legs with 100 psi in the fork.
This seemed to do the trick as the fork measures 15cm again.

After that, I reduced the pressure to around 90 psi and cycled the fork several times to balance the air springs. Travel remained at 150mm so that's good.

Then, I went for another ride and this time the fork works amazing. It's probably both fresh service and Luftkappe, but the fork is just smooth as a butter, incredible - by far the best feeling fork I've ever ridden.*
I had removed blue spacer as the Luftkappe takes some positive volume and Vorsprung did a very nice trick with the shorter negative seal head so there's even more negative volume than by just using another air piston.

I did few jumps and drops and to my surprise the fork didn't use whole travel like it would've done before but it felt a lot smoother and with less dive. Some riding that would use 80-90% travel before now only used 60-70% but with much softer feeling and more composure.

What I'm planning now is getting Slackerizer headset for my Switchblade to make it even more agressive, I'd also increase travel to 160mm to compensate for slacker and lower front end, this would make the bike really interesting, but I'm unsure how detrimental would this be on climbing and undulating terrain.



ibis315 said:


> I have he 92SE-R piston installed too, and it does feel much better than stock. I think the improvement is due to reduction of the seal drag. Overall increase in negative chamber volume is very small. If you remove one of the travel spacers from the lower air assembly, but keep the transfer shaft rod in the same place, you get the increase in negative chamber volume (assuming you're not at max travel already)


Not true, negative air chamber is between the piston and negative air seal head. Spacers attach to the bottom of the sealhead, under the negative air chamber.

Doing so would increase travel as the positive spring would have more volume that was previously occupied by that spacer and would push the whole assembly down thereby extending the fork.

Keeping the transfer port at the same spot would just raise the equalization point so the pressure would equalize beyond sag point.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

MarinCRO said:


> Not true, negative air chamber is between the piston and negative air seal head. Spacers attach to the bottom of the sealhead, under the negative air chamber.
> 
> Doing so would increase travel as the positive spring would have more volume that was previously occupied by that spacer and would push the whole assembly down thereby extending the fork.
> 
> Keeping the transfer port at the same spot would just raise the equalization point so the pressure would equalize beyond sag point.


Ibis315 is right, the transfer rod sets the forks travel, it would have a pneumatic top out. I used to run my 36 with the air shaft at 180mm travel and the transfer rod at 160mm travel, it had 160mm travel overall.


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

Rick Draper said:


> Ibis315 is right, the transfer rod sets the forks travel, it would have a pneumatic top out. I used to run my 36 with the air shaft at 180mm travel and the transfer rod at 160mm travel, it had 160mm travel overall.


Rick is the expert on this topic 

MarinCRO. By removing the extra travel spacers and setting the travel with the transfer rod, overall negative chamber volume is increased. This should give you better mid-stroke support and supple initial feel


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## Skerby (Sep 10, 2018)

Hey guys, I have a 2017, fit 4, 160mm 36 on my Patrol that I have kind of struggled with since I bought it.

It never feels sticky and I have serviced the lowers. Anyone else wonder if the damper just sucks? Rebound is good, but I have run the LSC completely closed and it hardly decreases dive at all. If I try to hold it up with air pressure it gets unreasonably harsh, and Im talking about the difference between like 72 - 76 psi. My hands feel like they would happily put up with more LSC as an alternative to bouncing around on the last 40mm of low volume travel in corners.

Anyone try a thicker damper oil? Maybe a stiffer shim stack?


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## Buggyr333 (Apr 8, 2010)

I've always felt like the RC2 dampers are overdamped, not underdamped.
More than anything that probably just says something about fox's quality control.


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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

I've got a Push ACS3 Fox 36 150mm kit with black spring for sale. 1 month of use. It's up on eBay.


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## MarinCRO (Jul 31, 2013)

I got to try different things regarding my issues with Luftkappe and I can't get it to work correctly. 

Having installed it and running 150mm travel (with one travel spacer), the negative air chamber seems to be dominant over positive air chamber causing me to lose a lot of travel. 

When I cycle the fork for few times and put it in resting position, it's showing only around 14.5cm of stanchion, so just 13.5cm travel.

When I push it down hard few times and lift the front wheel up so the fork extends as much as possible and then very gently put it down, I only get 14.2-14.3cm of travel.

Pulling down the fork lowers I can get around 1.5-2cm extra but fork packs down as soon as I let go of the lowers. 

Transfer shaft is in the correct position, I even removed the air spring and had it inflated to 50 psi before installing the lowers to prevent the air spring from creating vacuum but nothing seems to work. 

This extra "travel" that's present when pulling on lowers is only simptomatic to my fork. I tried various other stock fox and dvo fork and neither exhibits this behavior. 

How do I fix this? I bought the Luftkappe hoping it would increase the performance but it only caused me issues and I can't say I notice increased performance.

Vorsprung were not very helpful saying that it's either wrong position of transfer shaft or that the foot bolts were done without fork extended fully creating vacuum in the lowers but it's neither of those things.

Could the seal on the luftkappe be too tight and prevent effective equalization? Because when I let all the air and then inflate the fork it takes lot of coaxing it for the negative spring to equalize.


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

MarinCRO said:


> I got to try different things regarding my issues with Luftkappe and I can't get it to work correctly.
> 
> Having installed it and running 150mm travel (with one travel spacer), the negative air chamber seems to be dominant over positive air chamber causing me to lose a lot of travel.
> 
> ...


Luftkappe installation instruction step 22 moves the transfer rod's equalization slot up by 1 position. So with the standard air piston, your travel was at 150mm, but with Luftkappe, the position of the equalization is changed as well. With the transfer rod's position now at "140mm" and change in where the air piston sits, the equalization happens somewhere between 140mm and 150mm like you're seeing. With additional neg volume, air pressure also increases thus reducing travel.


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## MarinCRO (Jul 31, 2013)

I moved the transfer shaft by instruction so it's in the correct spot.


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

Marin, this is from Vorsprung's Luktkappe install page:

"Q: I can forcibly extend my fork about 20mm past where it extends to before it hits a hard stop, what's going on?

A: This is pneumatic topout in action - topout bumpers are not necessary in this fork. Being able to forcibly extend it a considerable distance past its proper topout point is normal and will not occur in use?"

In other words, your fork, and mine, is operating the way the Luftkappe was designed to work, and it's a bummer. I'm removing mine and putting in the 2019 Lyrik air shaft.

May The Loam Be With You


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## EJ_92606 (Jul 11, 2004)

MntnMan said:


> Marin, this is from Vorsprung's Luktkappe install page:
> 
> "Q: I can forcibly extend my fork about 20mm past where it extends to before it hits a hard stop, what's going on?
> 
> ...


The sentence above what you quoted makes it clear that the response relates to 34 not 36 forks which do retain top out bumpers.


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

MarinCRO said:


> I moved the transfer shaft by instruction so it's in the correct spot.


At the correct spot, but you will lose some travel. From the installation manual :

"Once equalised, the fork will be "sucked down" from its over-extended state and will now be at its correct amount of travel, +/-2mm. You can expect a couple of mm more travel to be used up as sag under the weight of the bike alone - this is normal and due to the exceptionally low forces at pneumatic topout."


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

EJ_92606 said:


> The sentence above what you quoted makes it clear that the response relates to 34 not 36 forks which do retain top out bumpers.


The title above what I quoted makes it clear that the instructions are for Lyrik/Pike/Yari. Fox is on another page.

https://vorsprungsuspension.com/pages/luftkappe-installation-setup


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## EJ_92606 (Jul 11, 2004)

MntnMan said:


> The title above what I quoted makes it clear that the instructions are for Lyrik/Pike/Yari. Fox is on another page.
> 
> https://vorsprungsuspension.com/pages/luftkappe-installation-setup


Marin is talking about his Fox 36 I believe.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Luftkappe moves the position of the transfer hole? Thats interesting, curious why they did that. Thats not necessary to get more negative volume. Also, increasing negative volume does NOT increase negative pressure. Big difference. You will not suck down more because of more negative volume. That can only happen if you use the MRP Fulfill valve where you can manually set pressure higher in the negative chamber. That is why I made sure not to touch the transfer port hole in my piston.


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## MarinCRO (Jul 31, 2013)

Luftkappe increases piston height by moving the positive air piston up. This increases negative air chamber by reducing positive somewhat. 

However, they also provide shorter sealhead tube to offset reduced positive chamber.
I guess it's similar to removing one travel spacer. 

That's why the transfer shaft needs to move up by 1 spot to compensate for the difference in height of new equalization point.


My issue is that it takes ages to equalize, I have to cycle the fork slowly dozen times for the negative spring to fill up with air. There's no grease obstructing the transfer port either.


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

Having read this entire thread, here's my thoughts on what I want to do to my 140mm 2016 Performance 36 w/3POS FIT4 damper which came stock on my recently acquired 2016 Trek Remedy 29. 

I weigh about 220 lbs. and primarily want to improve sensitivity to rocks, etc. It is currently pretty harsh. I'm running about 80 psi and still not typically using the last inch of travel. I'm 56, so I'm not hucking or hitting anything big - I slow down for that stuff!

Install Luftkappe piston (already acquired used)
Install Fox's E18 valving (not sure if E16 would be better?)
Showa/Honda 5wt for damper fluid (I have it on hand)
Fox 20wt for splash (is this critical? or would mobil 1 motor oil work as well?)
Install new seal kits - both damper and air spring (necessary, or not usually?)

Should I change my travel to 150mm to compensate for the Luftkappe's inherent reduction of travel?

Thoughts on my plan? Has anyone compared the E16 vs E18 shim stacks?

AM.


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

I am mostly a lurker in these forums and very, very rarely post but here are my .02$ after living with a 2016 Fox 36 which has gone from it's original 140mm configuration from my Trek Remedy to it's present 170mm on the front of my 2017 Patrol. 

I have spent countless hours fiddling and bracketing this same fork to get it to where I am happy with it. These are my cliffs: 

I have run several iterations of air piston from stock, 92SER, MRP with fullfill, Luftkappe to the hybrid that it is now. The only thing I haven't run is the Push ACS3 conversion, which would probably be the plushest and best solution.

If you already have it: install the Luftkappe and follow Steve's instructions to the letter. The fork will sag under it's own weight and I added a 2mm spacer to bring the bars back up.

I would also advise to bump the travel in the fork to 160 to help out the bike's geometry. Lower your controls to suit. It will get you in the realm of a 67* HA and make the bike much more predictable. Lose the ReAktiv damper in the back and the bike will come alive.

The Remedy was designed around forks with a taller axle to crown than the 36 so a 10mm bump from the stock 140 to 150 will give you the 67.5*HA the bike is spec'd with. Another 10mm will slacken it just a scosche more adding some stability. RS has a bolt-on rear replacement shock that gets rid of the trouble prone fox and eliminates the reaktiv. I preferred the bike without.

Fluids: yes, you want 20wt gold. The difference is in the tackifier package that allows it to stick to the stanchions. In a pinch, chainsaw bar oil works as well.

Damper fluid: the OEM damper in the fork is junk. It is where a majority of the harshness comes from. Swapping fluid will only move the problem somewhere else because the valving internally is designed for the factory fill. 

Swapping to the RC2 damper with adjustable HS/LS is a step in the right direction and the new Grip2 is the best solution. You will have to learn how to tune the circuits however to get the most of either of those.

As far as measured travel: You will need to fall out of a building in order to get all of the exposed stanchion on a 36. Effectively, if these forks had the kashima logo, that would be max travel you would achieve normally. The only times I have ever buried the oring were a botched gap jump in the middle of an enduro and mistimed drop which resulted in landing heavily nose-first. Don't be concerned with the oring. Quality of the travel is much more important.

Hope that helps. Feel free to message for specifics.

-Randy


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

Randy, thanks for sharing your experiences. I'd like to start by trying some relatively low cost changes first before spending hundreds on new damper cartridges, etc. I stumbled into the used Luftkappe pretty cheaply when my son acquired a used fork that came with an extra one. 

I haven't found much feedback on people trying the different shim stacks available from Fox (E-16 and E-18). I haven't checked with my LBS, but apparently those kits are only like $15 or so. Between the two sides, it costs about $50 for the two seal kits. Is it necessary to buy those, or are there really only a couple o-rings you really need to replace? The damper side kit even comes with a new bladder which seems unnecessary barring damage to it.

I had a Yamaha WR250 in 91 that had a fork that acted a lot like this Fox. It just was incapable of moving quickly enough to be effective at absorbing all the trail debris. Yamaha had made a mistake in wanting the compression adjuster screw located at the top of the fork. This resulted in a design that reduced maximum oil flow capacity resulting in HSC spikes. I was glad to sell that bike and move on!

I don't know if this damper design is similarly flow-restricted, but first it feels to me like there's simply too much compression damping and stiction overall. Perhaps even going to the lightest viscosity damper oil I can find would help in combination with the softer valving from Fox.

Interesting thoughts on the Remedy geometry. I've read that the EWS riders who rode this bike tended to run either 150 or 160 mm of travel. I'll probably start with 150 since I spend so much time climbing here in the Rockies. I love the bike - just not the fork.

AM.


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

AM,

I have run the e16 tune in the fit4 3 position damper with open mode: not worth it in comparison to the RC2 damper. You can find used RC2 dampers with low miles cheap enough. Trust me, it is worth the upgrade.

I have tried a number of fluids in the original 3 position damper and all you will do is blow through the stack and have no support. It will be more comfortable through the chatter but will not hold you up when things get rougher. After studying the viscosities of fluid, it was apparent that this was not the solution. I was also unwilling to dive that far into the fork (valving) when a better solution existed.

Go straight to 160 and adjust your controls to suit. I thought the same about climbing but it was all unfounded: the front end will stay down with a bit of body position change and you will be much more composed in the rough. You may need to shove the saddle forward a little but its worth it. My experience riding the bike/fork in PA, OR, WY and CO.

In summary: Install the luftkappe per instructions, bump the travel, lose the OEM damper and go with the RC2 and dial in your settings as needed. The 36 has one of the best chassis available and should be viewed as such. They seem to have figured out most of the harshness with the 18-19 fork but that's a significant amount of money when you can make near the same changes to your existing fork.


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## areks (Jan 30, 2016)

tomacGTi, have you tried running Luftkappe with MRP Fulfill?


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

It won't work. 

The plug for the Fullfill will not tighten down into the top of the Luftkappe air piston. Not without grinding a socket paper thin or opening up the top of the air piston. It will work with the 92SER piston however.

At the travel above 160mm, raised air pistons make the fork extremely progressive which is why they suggest removing tokens and adjusting air pressure when you use them. In a way, it mimics a token-heavy setup with a soft initial stroke and a very firm mid-to-bottom of the stroke.

It also makes setting the rebound difficult in a single rebound system. Too little and its enough to work until the airspring gets so progressive that it can't control the bottom of the stroke; enough to control the bottom of the stroke: the top of the stroke is over damped. The Grip2 damper would work wonders here.


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

Hmmmmm.... perhaps I DON'T have a Luftkappe. I went to the Vorsprung site to get the intstructions to install the Luftkappe and it appears I have a Luftkappe for a 2018+ EVOL air spring.

According to their site, the Luftkappe for a 2016 NA fork should look like this:









The one I have looks like this:








Puzzling why this Luftkappe would come with a 2015 fork that my son purchased used. Or is there something I am misunderstanding?

AM.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

do you want to sell it?


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> do you want to sell it?


Probably so. I paid my son $60 for it, so was hoping to recoup my investment. I see someone has a brand new one on eBay for $65.

Mine does have most of an air shaft assy attached. It has the shaft, spacers, and seal head. I don't know how to determine what travel it is.

I'll probably try to sell it for $65 shipped, but if I was you, I'd buy that new one on eBay before it's gone.

AM.


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

All is not lost: buy the fullfill kit from MRP, remove the lower footnut from the airshaft and you can still use the 2018/19 airshaft and luftkappe in your fork. You will have independent positive and negative air chambers to fill but that isn't a bad thing.

Obviously do some measuring. Fox has the numbers as far as measurement goes on their website. You should be able to correlate and figure it out easily enough.


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

I wondered about that. My son's 2016 (I originally thought it was a 2015) Factory RC2 fork was supposedly owned by a tech at a well-known suspension service company. It came with an MRP ramp control system installed which precluded using the Luftkappe. What you're saying makes sense, as the original owner probably used the 2018 system along with the fullfill as you said. Perhaps the mystery is solved!

Here's what I got. The "lower footnut" appears to be missing already:









From what I've read, the Fulfill is a worthy upgrade anyway, so that may be the way to go. Still thinking about the RC2 damper. They seem to be going for about $150. For $305, you can buy the new Grip 2. I wonder if it would be worth the extra $$?

Thanks for all your help!

AM.


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## evildos (Aug 17, 2015)

Attacking Mid said:


> Hmmmmm.... perhaps I DON'T have a Luftkappe. I went to the Vorsprung site to get the intstructions to install the Luftkappe and it appears I have a Luftkappe for a 2018+ EVOL air spring.
> 
> According to their site, the Luftkappe for a 2016 NA fork should look like this:
> 
> ...


Hi !

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I think the upper picture is an installation tool for the Luftkappe, and the lower picture is the actual Luftkappe.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

evildos said:


> Hi !
> 
> Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I think the upper picture is an installation tool for the Luftkappe, and the lower picture is the actual Luftkappe.


The top picture is a 2015-17 36NA Luftkappe and the bottom picture is a 2018-on 36 NA2 Luftkappe.


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## evildos (Aug 17, 2015)

Well, double sorry, then :aureola:


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

AM,

Your call as to what damper would be best, either are an improvement over what comes stock now. I personally would like to upgrade to the Grip2 but can't honestly justify it. I'll just get one with a new fork one of these days. My current fork has been flogged mercilessly for four years, creaky crown and all. All being equal: the Grip2 would be the way to go. The RC2 is good but not as good as the newest damper.

Another part that looks semi-strange is the lack of a top out bumper on your airshaft. It looks like they're using volume reducers for a Lyrik DP. I would at least get that part from Fox as the initial spacing of the negative chamber will make a difference in the positive chamber size when first inflating, especially with the Fullfill. Its a whopping $12. Since there is no equalization port to move the air around, starting point is pretty crucial to determine chamber sizes. You can find it easily enough:

https://store.manticoreshock.com/product/fox-shox-air-shaft-top-out-update-parts-2018-36mm-nls/

Hope that helps.

-Randy


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## Yody (Jan 21, 2008)

man I tried taking out a negative spacer ( have a 2015 fox 36 180 that was reduced to 160, had 2 spacers, now I have one. #3 on the transfer rod (for 160mm travel). Now for some reason the fork is going to full 180mm travel?? I've tried various different assembly techniques and it still goes full travel and I never once touched the transfer rod arrangment. I also don't feel a very strong negative spring, maybe the transfer port is plugged?


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

You need to physically push and cycle the fork past the sag point for it to equalize multiple times until it does. And this isn't a quick bounce either. You'll hear and feel the transfer happen, it makes a sucking sound.

This is the reason that they say to inflate it in 20psi increments and cycle it through: you have to overcome the positive spring with no negative assistance. Equalization for 160mm occurs at about 140mm. After it equalizes, you'll need to air up again until your pressure doesn't change when you equalize the chambers.

Either do it in 20psi increments or man up and do the big push. Either way you haven't gone down far enough to equalize the chambers.

-Randy


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## Yody (Jan 21, 2008)

Thanks Randy for the quick reply, I appreciate that (solid info too!). What I did was, instead of going off what fox said and having air shaft fully extended before airing/assembling I started it halfway in to build up some neg air spring pressure. And yeah really cycling it hard and a bunch of times after doing that, did the trick!. Was driving me nuts. I just installed a grip2 damper on my 2015 36 . and since I was smart enough when I bought the fork and got the 170, I was able to do the negative spring trick with the 170 spacer/160 rod deal.

Forks feels awesome now, but Im thinking its ramping up fairly quickly with just a blue token sawed in half. I might run no tokens and a lil more air pressure to reduce brake dive and increase mid support. Doesn't seem like it has any kind of bottom out problem right now. I'll have to say the LSC is a WAY lighter tune than my 15. Not sure if I like that yet or not.

On another note. Ive been reading thru this thread...... I have no idea how all these guys are running monster negative air springs, a gang of tokens, and low main chamber psi (50???) with a bunch of compression to bandaid it. That sounds like the worst setup ive ever heard of. Talk about a mushy pile bike that won't do anything but track the ground. These guys, if they stepped their riding game up would realize thats a bandaid setup and is only nursing along poor riding skills. I suppose if you're an older rider and have bad joints, and never aspire to do anything but go for leisure rides and you dont' want to feel anything that may work lol. The only way an average rider (I know we all wanna think were special but if you post on mtbr you prob aren't lol) should be using more than one token, or 2 max, is if they're doing 10 foot drops to flat or going really big. Espcially with a stronger negative spring which already acts as a token..... Rant off.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Yody said:


> Thanks Randy for the quick reply, I appreciate that (solid info too!). What I did was, instead of going off what fox said and having air shaft fully extended before airing/assembling I started it halfway in to build up some neg air spring pressure. And yeah really cycling it hard and a bunch of times after doing that, did the trick!. Was driving me nuts. I just installed a grip2 damper on my 2015 36 . and since I was smart enough when I bought the fork and got the 170, I was able to do the negative spring trick with the 170 spacer/160 rod deal.
> 
> Forks feels awesome now, but Im thinking its ramping up fairly quickly with just a blue token sawed in half. I might run no tokens and a lil more air pressure to reduce brake dive and increase mid support. Doesn't seem like it has any kind of bottom out problem right now. I'll have to say the LSC is a WAY lighter tune than my 15. Not sure if I like that yet or not.
> 
> On another note. Ive been reading thru this thread...... I have no idea how all these guys are running monster negative air springs, a gang of tokens, and low main chamber psi (50???) with a bunch of compression to bandaid it. That sounds like the worst setup ive ever heard of. Talk about a mushy pile bike that won't do anything but track the ground. These guys, if they stepped their riding game up would realize thats a bandaid setup and is only nursing along poor riding skills. I suppose if you're an older rider and have bad joints, and never aspire to do anything but go for leisure rides and you dont' want to feel anything that may work lol. The only way an average rider (I know we all wanna think were special but if you post on mtbr you prob aren't lol) should be using more than one token, or 2 max, is if they're doing 10 foot drops to flat or going really big. Espcially with a stronger negative spring which already acts as a token..... Rant off.


People did this because there's been a known issue with major Stockton in the air spring. To compensate that people were doing what you said. Now with vorsprung and 92se mods I don't think people using them are having to do what you're saying.

I have started playing with oil viscosity in my 2015 damper. Too bad I don't have hsr but now I can actually use my compression adjusters! Stoked

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## Yody (Jan 21, 2008)

mmm Iunno, Ive had this fork since first week they came out in 15, had it warrantied once, and have rebuilt it again since then, and have ridden the **** outta it. Never felt some crazy stiction that made me run such a whack setup. Sticition helps with brake dive. Me thinks people trying to be a passenger on the bike... like a motorcycle. But this isn't a motorcycle. Our body influences the bike. Suspension is just there to help you not get beaten up. Its not there to make everything disappear like a magic carpet. Thats just not how high performance suspension or riding is about. But maybe I jumped gun. I reread some and it's not like everyone is running it like that. Just stuck out to me a few times had me scratching head lol


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

From what I've observed with my FIT4 with only 3 position adjustment, what some may be calling stiction is more like HSC that is too restricted to allow the fork to move quickly when encountering a rock or root in the trail. Rather than absorbing these things, the front wheel tends to just ping off of them. This is a critical function of a bike fork. I would easily sacrifice "big hit" capacity for a supple ride through the rocks/roots/etc. I can slow down a bit for the big hits if necessary, but 99% of my ride is spent riding over rock-infested trails.

AM.


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## Skerby (Sep 10, 2018)

Another satisfied NA1 luftkappe user. Rode one big ride and so far it's really made a huge improvement. 

I knew I needed it as soon as I threw in the 3rd volume spacer and still clanked the thing in a bumpy high speed berm. The fork was just always diving so hard under braking. And it felt like a purpose built freeride fork if I set it up with adequate pressure and fewer/no tokens.

Anyways added 6.5 psi so far and pulled out two blue tokens, felt amazing. Just running one orange now and 79 psi. Gonna try 1 blue and 81. 

Finally feels like a 700$ fork! Well, at least 800 now lol


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

AM: That was the issue I had with the OEM Fit4 damper. Unless you were going mach chicken, the fork wanted to rattle your hands off. To be honest, the FIT4 damper with adjustable open mode and the e16 tune wasn't much better. RC2 is a big, big improvement over both and the new grip2 is better yet.

Juner: Yes, the stiction is a bit of an issue but the undersized negative chamber is a bigger one: there isn't enough airspace and pressure to help the fork get moving. All of the modifications to make the negative chamber bigger help. To me, the more slippery piston is the bonus. That's the big gain once you mod the fork for this through either a new air piston, a full kit like the Luftkappe, the MRP kit or even the negative plate mod. Why do you think the factory went evol? Even Fox had suggested the negative plate mod to someone if you read through the thread.

Another thing I read here many, many pages ago and realized myself: although this fork is capable of being anything from 120 to 180mm, it's primarily designed around an air chamber for 160mm of travel. That's why volume reducers exist and why you don't need them at more than 160 of travel. Something to think about when fiddling. The 160 air chamber is the same size as the 180 and the 170 shares the same size as 150.

Yody: To be honest, good suspension should be a magic carpet ride. It should make you feel like you can attack instead of hang on. There is always a compromise and personal preference, that's up for the end user to decide. Once you nail that compromise though, it's pretty damn sweet.

And re: being an older rider with bad joints etc: Guilty. I'm still racing enduro though and doing pretty ok with what little time I have to train. We all get old and injuries add up. Enjoy the rubber bones and joints while you can, thank god the equipment is as good as it is now. 

-Randy


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

Randy,

I bit the bullet and bought a new 2017 RC2 damper tonight. Won't have it for a couple weeks as it's coming from Canada. The trails around here look like Canada right now, so that's okay. Now I just have to figure out what I'm going to do to the air spring side.

Is the MRP fulfill worth the expense/hassle?

AM.


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

AM,

The MRP Fulfill works well but I think a bigger negative is even better. I'd honestly recommend the Luftkappe if I were to start from ground zero. At 160mm of travel 92SER's air piston works very well. 

The issue that the MRP setup has are the features it brings: an independent positive and negative chamber. Filling the both of these takes a little getting used to and if you run a bigger negative, the extra pressure if you don't space the seal head internally causes huge ramp up. The Luftkappe stays the same as stock after installation. 92SER's piston does as well. 

If you are after the simplest solution: the negative plate mod. If you're going to 160mm, that won't work so I'd recommend 92SER's piston or the Luftkappe. MRP's fulfill works well but is finicky if you are a set and forget guy.

-Randy


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## Skerby (Sep 10, 2018)

Luftkappe is really good at 160 travel. Still plenty of volume for the positive side. Im 10 psi over recommended with a volume spacer and its plenty linear towards bottom out. Feels so much better with a little help from the negative side ott.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

For the people doing the negative spacer mod to their fork, what is the general consensus for the top out bumper? Removing that would add more negative space as well but it’s also probably saving the fork from big hit total bottom out... 


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

The fork will have pneumatic top out. It would only affect the over-travel of the fork on return. Has nothing to do with bottom out.

When I ran the negative plate mod, I took it out. Just be sure to slide the negative plate back on over a piece of saran wrap to prevent nicking the o-ring. If you damage it, it will lead to air leakage to the lowers.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

tomacGTi said:


> The fork will have pneumatic top out. It would only affect the over-travel of the fork on return. Has nothing to do with bottom out.
> 
> When I ran the negative plate mod, I took it out. Just be sure to slide the negative plate back on over a piece of saran wrap to prevent nicking the o-ring. If you damage it, it will lead to air leakage to the lowers.


Thanks. With the removal, did bottom out feel different? Did you get harsh hits? I'm thinking I just want to carefully cut it out or melt it off instead of being concerned about oring damage like you mentioned.

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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

Like I said: bottom out unaffected. Neither was top out. 

I would recommend not to just cut it off: too much risk in damaging the airshaft.

Use some heat on the footnut and clamp the airshaft in a vice wrapped with innertube: should unthread pretty easily and allow you to slide everything off. All you need is a little saran wrap to prevent the edge of the airshaft from catching the oring. A little lube helps as well.

Cut it off if you like but caveat emptor. That and you will have to call fox for a new one if you choose to revert back.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

tomacGTi said:


> Like I said: bottom out unaffected. Neither was top out.
> 
> I would recommend not to just cut it off: too much risk in damaging the airshaft.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Did you red licktite it back on? What kind of torque should I use when reinstalling?

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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

The threads are quite fine so it doesn't need much torque. I would have to look at the tech doc but I don't think its more than 10nm. 

It is also o-ringed so the chances of it coming loose are slim, I reinstalled with a tiny dab of blue. The loctite is there just to keep it from spinning out when undoing the footnut at the bottom of the fork.


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## Skerby (Sep 10, 2018)

Manual says 50 in*lb for anything that threads into or onto the airshaft . That comes out to basically hand tight, use red loctite for your own sanity if nothing else.

i used blue on the luftkappe piston stud and Im stressing out about it pretty hard.


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## Skerby (Sep 10, 2018)

Has anyone tried to go to 170mm of travel in a 160 fork with the luftkappe?

Im wondering because part of the install procedure is to move the transfer needle up one hole, in order to maintain equalization point with the taller piston.

Makes sense to me that moving the needle back down would increase the forks travel by 10mm, also losing as much negative volume but there is no replacement for displacement.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Skerby said:


> Has anyone tried to go to 170mm of travel in a 160 fork with the luftkappe?
> 
> Im wondering because part of the install procedure is to move the transfer needle up one hole, in order to maintain equalization point with the taller piston.
> 
> Makes sense to me that moving the needle back down would increase the forks travel by 10mm, also losing as much negative volume but there is no replacement for displacement.


You don't want to do that, you will damage the damper.


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## Skerby (Sep 10, 2018)

Sry, disregard the damper, I would get a long damper too


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Just something I noticed today:

I have a 2016/2017 Fox 36. I started with a Push tune to the RC2 damper and it was okay. Then I got 92seR's air piston and that helped some more by increasing the negative air spring. The fork was still kinda harsh but that was the damper tune I'm sure. Then I got the Push ACS3 kit and it wasn't bad. The small bump sensitivity went up for sure although the fork was diving a bit, like when I had the air spring. The RC2 tune still wasn't any good. Then I found a used Avalanche cartridge that I wanted to try. It was valved close enough to my weight, but I have the tools to pull it apart and add some support to the mid valves (I've had lots of Avalanche stuff in the past so I knew what I was dealing with). Even though it wasn't valves for my weight, it still out performed the RC2 damper I had. I decided to try something... How would the Avy cartridge work with the air spring?? So I swapped back to the air spring, and yes, it holds air...the ACS3 didn't chew up in the insides of my fork luckily enough. You know, I always found the air assist thing with the ACS3 didn't really work for me. Anything more than 15psi and I couldn't get full travel. Anyways, I put in more than 10cc of Fox gold and inflated that bastard up to 92psi (I have that aftermarket piston so I put in more air now)....Wow. The fork worked well! I increased the rebound damping by two clicks and left the compression as-is. The diving is still there although not any worse than before really. I increased the pressure to 95psi at then end of my ride just to get a little more support but it's the mid valves I need to deal with. Oh yeah, no volume spacers. 

The point is for me: 
Avalanche cartridge plus the air spring with 92seR's piston is pretty damn good! I'd say it's easily as good as the RC2 damper with ACS3 kit.


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## rwalker (Nov 7, 2018)

Hi All - I have a 2018 36 evol at 170mm travel. Been reading at Fox harsh threads for weeks but not familiar with the negative plate mod. Assuming this would work for my 36, can someone point me in the direction of where this mod is technically explained in a thread or elsewhere? A video of it would be ideal. Many thanks!


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

rwalker said:


> Hi All - I have a 2018 36 evol at 170mm travel. Been reading at Fox harsh threads for weeks but not familiar with the negative plate mod. Assuming this would work for my 36, can someone point me in the direction of where this mod is technically explained in a thread or elsewhere? A video of it would be ideal. Many thanks!


You cannot do any negative plate mods on that fork. You want a 36 NA2 Luftkappe.


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## rwalker (Nov 7, 2018)

Rick Draper said:


> You cannot do any negative plate mods on that fork. You want a 36 NA2 Luftkappe.


Gotcha. Thanks Rick. Been waiting weeks now for that Luftkappe to be back in stock. Hopefully soon...


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Make sure you have at least 1 token if you are installing a Luftkappe other wise the fork will be to progressive at 170. They recommend removing 2 tokens and this is what I did with a my 160 fork. It's a great upgrade. It has an air top out, so you loose 3-5mm of top out travel.


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## rwalker (Nov 7, 2018)

Thanks for the intel!


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

Got my RC2 damper in the mail yesterday and headed out into the garage to swap it out..... only to discover I needed a 26mm non-chamfered socket to remove the FIT4 damper. In over half a century on this earth, I don't believe I've EVER encountered a 26mm fastener - let alone one that only stands about 3mm tall! I tried removing it with various tools, but I was starting to damage the flats so I stopped. Socket will be here Tuesday.

AM.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Annoying eh?


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

Finally got my new RC2 damper installed last night and went out for a lunch ride today. Definitely an improvement over the FIT4 I had. The front end feels much more planted. I wouldn't go so far as to call it plush, but at least it moves now when rolling over rocks, roots, etc. I started with about 5 clicks (from open) on both HSC and LSC. Shortly, I stopped and opened up the HSC. A while later, I finally opened up the LSC also. I think wide-open is where I liked it the best, though it was only about 45 degrees out and my pace was tempered by occasional ice in the shadows.

I tried not to make too many changes all at once, but I did bump the travel to 150mm (from 140), and I removed one of the two orange tokens that were in there. Otherwise, just a quick clean, re-grease, and new bath oil in both sides. I didn't have an oring kit for either side, so I re-used everything for now. The prior owner had said he had done a basic oil service on the fork last winter, and everything appeared properly lubed inside.

Next mod will likely be a Luftkappe. If anyone has a used one they'd like to sell (15-17 Fox 36 NA), please pm me.

Thanks, Randy, for all your help/advice along with the many other contributors to this thread. I think your description of the new damper being a step in the right direction is spot-on. If that Luftkappe will further improve the suppleness, I think I'll be mostly satisfied with the fork.

AM.


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## Dagonger (Dec 8, 2011)

I love my luftkappes. I have one in 2016 rc2, pike 150mm and installing in new 2019 36. 

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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Attacking Mid said:


> Finally got my new RC2 damper installed last night and went out for a lunch ride today. Definitely an improvement over the FIT4 I had. The front end feels much more planted. I wouldn't go so far as to call it plush, but at least it moves now when rolling over rocks, roots, etc. I started with about 5 clicks (from open) on both HSC and LSC. Shortly, I stopped and opened up the HSC. A while later, I finally opened up the LSC also. I think wide-open is where I liked it the best, though it was only about 45 degrees out and my pace was tempered by occasional ice in the shadows.
> 
> I tried not to make too many changes all at once, but I did bump the travel to 150mm (from 140), and I removed one of the two orange tokens that were in there. Otherwise, just a quick clean, re-grease, and new bath oil in both sides. I didn't have an oring kit for either side, so I re-used everything for now. The prior owner had said he had done a basic oil service on the fork last winter, and everything appeared properly lubed inside.
> 
> ...


I'm in the same position as you are with the rc2 damper. Wide open... I'm actually experimenting with different viscosity oils at the moment trying to get the oil to flow through the circuit better in hopes that I can get some adjustability out of the damper.

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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

Can you tell any difference? Since it comes with 5wt., there's not a lot of room to go to a lighter viscosity. Redline has a 5.5 cSt fluid that is the lightest I've seen (stock is 15ish cSt). I guess it might be worth a try. I haven't looked to see what's involved in altering the shim stack, but that would be the next option. It would be nice to get some adjustment range back rather than just having to run it wide open.

AM.



Junersun said:


> I'm in the same position as you are with the rc2 damper. Wide open... I'm actually experimenting with different viscosity oils at the moment trying to get the oil to flow through the circuit better in hopes that I can get some adjustability out of the damper.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Attacking Mid said:


> Can you tell any difference? Since it comes with 5wt., there's not a lot of room to go to a lighter viscosity. Redline has a 5.5 cSt fluid that is the lightest I've seen (stock is 15ish cSt). I guess it might be worth a try. I haven't looked to see what's involved in altering the shim stack, but that would be the next option. It would be nice to get some adjustment range back rather than just having to run it wide open.
> 
> AM.


Currently have golden spetro ultra light which is 2.5 wt(I forget the viscosity rating but much thinner). Only one ride so far so I can't really say. Also can't get back on the bike for a bit with the holiday.

There is also redline like water oil too which is even thinner

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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

I recently took the top out bumper and now I’m at 180 negative plate but set at 160 travel (2015 fork). I can’t get the fork to equalize. At zero pressure I compress the fork as far down as I can then add 20 or so psi and slowly bring it up but I’m having a hard time hearing the hiss indicating the chambers have equalized. Any suggestions? Right now without the top out bumper I have a solid clunk top out sound when the bike is unweighted....


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Update, really slowly waited for the air to equalize and now I’m at 190 mm of stanchion showing... did I still go too fast


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Just keep cycling it about a third in to the travel, fairly slowly and you should feel the pressure “let go”

Or let it back down, add 20 psi, cycle several times, add 20 more and so on. It should settle around 160mm between each fill


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Just keep cycling it about a third in to the travel, fairly slowly and you should feel the pressure "let go"
> 
> Or let it back down, add 20 psi, cycle several times, add 20 more and so on. It should settle around 160mm between each fill


Ok thanks. So the fact that it's at 180-190 is not right. I'll give it another try later tonight

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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Ugh I can’t get the fork to get any less than 180 mm of stanchion showing... I don’t get it...


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Stalkerfiveo said:


> Have you tried going the other direction with your fork setup? Coming from dirtbike racing, many times a setup that is too soft will feel harsh because you aren't riding high enough in the stroke. Could be the same here. Not having enough air pressure could give the wrong fork sag and ride too low in the stroke and your first 1-2" of travel is already into the mid stroke.
> 
> I'd go 10 lbs over recommended air spring pressure and see if it is any better if softening it up is making it worse.


The culprit was I had a huge amount of pressure built up in my lowers. I don't know how thta happened but it was the loudest hiss I've had doing the ziptie trick. I have exactly 160 mm of stanchion showing and for good measures I burped it on more time before calling it a night.

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Well folks I figured out my problem and I thought I’d share it in case others run into this problem too. When I have the top out bumper and set at 180 (I’m trying to achieve 160 mm of travel), it’s entirely possible for the transfer rod to come out. It’s even more likely if you have a shuttle vertical rack like I do (recon rack).

I didn’t feel like measuring whether the top out bumper volume was more of a compromise than adding another 10 mm plate back in so since it was easier to just add the plate back in I did that. 160 mm travel with 170 mm of negative spacer and no top out bumper and I am no longer popping the transfer rod out of the air spring.

I still get air pressure in my lowers... I’m not sure if it’s leaking from my air spring or not... maybe I’m due for an air spring service... any other thoughts? I would hate to bust out a zip tie every time I went riding....


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Junersun said:


> Well folks I figured out my problem and I thought I'd share it in case others run into this problem too. When I have the top out bumper and set at 180 (I'm trying to achieve 160 mm of travel), it's entirely possible for the transfer rod to come out. It's even more likely if you have a shuttle vertical rack like I do (recon rack).
> 
> I didn't feel like measuring whether the top out bumper volume was more of a compromise than adding another 10 mm plate back in so since it was easier to just add the plate back in I did that. 160 mm travel with 170 mm of negative spacer and no top out bumper and I am no longer popping the transfer rod out of the air spring.
> 
> ...


Your air spring is leaking into the lower leg and that is causing all the issues.

The force required to drag the transfer shaft past the hydraulic top out point so it disengages with the lower shaft is such they there is little chance of it happening unless you are swinging on the handlebars and holding the front wheel on the ground.


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

O-ring in lower seal head. The one the shaft travels through.

Either get an air piston rebuild kit or play mix and match with o-rings at the hardware store.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> Your air spring is leaking into the lower leg and that is causing all the issues.
> 
> The force required to drag the transfer shaft past the hydraulic top out point so it disengages with the lower shaft is such they there is little chance of it happening unless you are swinging on the handlebars and holding the front wheel on the ground.


With my recon rack the hard hit on the car is disengaging the transfer shaft but now that I added a 10 mm negative plate back on, top out stops at 180 mm of stanchion.

I suppose all the times I spent taking the air spring on and off probably messed up that oring...

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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

tomacGTi said:


> O-ring in lower seal head. The one the shaft travels through.
> 
> Either get an air piston rebuild kit or play mix and match with o-rings at the hardware store.


That makes the most sense. Any luck at Lowe's? That's my closest hardware store...

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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> Your air spring is leaking into the lower leg and that is causing all the issues.
> 
> The force required to drag the transfer shaft past the hydraulic top out point so it disengages with the lower shaft is such they there is little chance of it happening unless you are swinging on the handlebars and holding the front wheel on the ground.


Sorry gotta ask. So if I seal up that leak then do you think I can run a 180 negative plate with no top out bumper at 160 mm and not have problems with the transfer shaft disengaging when carrying my bike vertically at the front wheel?

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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

tomacGTi said:


> O-ring in lower seal head. The one the shaft travels through.
> 
> Either get an air piston rebuild kit or play mix and match with o-rings at the hardware store.


I basically removed it, measured it with a caliper and brought it with me to the plumbing section.

I know I found one but it was a scosche too tight. Your best bet is to spend the extra dosh and get the Fox NA o-ring kit and be done with it.


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

For reference sake since I just had to replace the OEM o-ring in the lower sealhead on my fork:

ID: 9.9mm
OD: 14.5mm
DIA: 2.5mm

These were with digital calipers so obviously not perfect, trying to measure rubber afterall.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

tomacGTi said:


> For reference sake since I just had to replace the OEM o-ring in the lower sealhead on my fork:
> 
> ID: 9.9mm
> OD: 14.5mm
> ...


Thanks! I ended up just buying the kit and replacing it all. The fork is pressurized and hanging from my bike stand. So far no pressure build up in the lowers. We'll see if the build up after riding is also non existent.

So far so good...

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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

For those who are interested here is how I have my 36 setup:

Airspring negative plate set at 170. travel at 160 mm with no top out bumper. I chose to stay at 170 because that still keeps the transfer rod inside the air spring assembly even when I extend it out past 160 mm travel (my vertical bike rack can easily do taht over a speed bump). If I had a tray style rack I would def take it to 180...
Damper oil replaced with golden spectro untralight 2.5 wt.

This will not be for everyone but it's working out really well for me. I am 4 ish click from close on rebound, 6 clicks in for LSC and 4 clicks in for HSC. I keep dialing the compression in the more I ride.

Here's the kicker though, if you like your rebound on the slower end, this will not work for you as rebound fully closed is still not very dampened. I've been riding my rebound quicker and quicker though because of the added confident and comfort this setup is providing me.


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## Skerby (Sep 10, 2018)

I figured this was probably the best place on the internet to ask this question.

Does this Fit4 cartridge look like it has sucked air/oil to anyone? Recently replaced with an RC2 cartridge and noticed that the bladder on the Fit4 didn't suck in quite as much, although it seemed to function fine before i pulled it out, was able to bottom it etc.

i can tell, cycling with my hand, that the lockout has an effect on the travel, but it does not fully lock. Idk if they are supposed to lock out or if this is normal, Im not a lockout guy, I never used it.

Fit4 is 160 travel, RC2 that replaced it is 180, maybe another reason for the fuller bladder.

Anyways, I would appreciate if anyone has an opinion, don't want to sell it if it's messed up at all, but don't feel like bleeding for no reason.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Bladder will have different states of full depending on the bleed and oil getting threw the seal. No way to tell there is air by looking at it from the outside.
If you cycle the shock, do you feel air or steps in damping?


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## Skerby (Sep 10, 2018)

It feels smooth and consistent until the last probably 5mm of travel where it basically blows through.

The pictures were taken with the damper fully extended


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Skerby said:


> It feels smooth and consistent until the last probably 5mm of travel where it basically blows through.
> 
> The pictures were taken with the damper fully extended


That's a good sign that there is air in it.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

If that Fit4 damper is fully extended then yes its sucked in lower leg fluid.


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## Skerby (Sep 10, 2018)

Im gonna give it a bleed before i sell it. Thanks for the advice guys.


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## MarinCRO (Jul 31, 2013)

After some tinkering with my Luftkappe on MY17 Fox 36, I've came to a conclusion.

Luftkappe's raised piston seal head increases negative air volume by quite a bit, but Vorsprung also provides shorter negative plate tube to further increase the volume.

This creates one massive negative chamber that's overpowering the positive and causing some travel loss. After numerous attempts to remedy this issue (my 150mm Float 36 would suck down to 140ish, max 145mm), I've decided to go against the recommendation by Vorsprung and keep the transfer shaft at same lenght as before the conversion.

Considering the piston is raised now, this should increase travel by 10mm while slighty reducing negative air volume. However, since there's shorter negative plate as well as added air volume from new positive piston, the loss is minimal and negative spring is strong enough that it perfectly balances the positive air spring.

Since I've done this, I get around 155-157mm of travel and that's great by me especially since the fork no longer sucks down and there's more usable travel. The fork also seems to perform smoother and I don't notice any issues with small bump sensitivity.

I like it far more now than it was before using Vorsprung's settings that called for moving transfer shaft up one hole.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

MarinCRO said:


> After some tinkering with my Luftkappe on MY17 Fox 36, I've came to a conclusion.
> 
> Luftkappe's raised piston seal head increases negative air volume by quite a bit, but Vorsprung also provides shorter negative plate tube to further increase the volume.
> 
> ...


I'm confused, how much travel did you want? What is the transfer rod set to when you got 140 mm of travel?

I have my setup using 92 piston with no top out bumper and negative plate set to 170 (160 mm of travel at the transfer rod) and I don't get that effect. Not even when I had it at 180 negative plate.

If you equalize your chambers correctly then the bike should sit at whatever your transfer rod is at. Otherwise you have a leak somewhere...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MarinCRO (Jul 31, 2013)

92 piston doesn't affect negative spring. It's just different tolerance to fix issues fox had on some of it's seal heads causing stiction.

Luftkappe raised the piston seal head and further increased negative spring by using smaller negative plate (effect similar to removing one of the negative plate spacers).

This caused negative spring to overpower the positive, eating into the fork travel, at least at 150mm.

Vorsprung recommendation was to move transfer shaft to 140mm (by one hole up) to compensate for the raised seal head which now contains transfer port higher up. However, that means you'd lose some travel and the fork would be sucked down at rest by about 15-20mm and measuring the travel at rest would be at 140ish mm for 150mm fork.
There's no leak because there's no air loss nor pressure buildup in the lowers.

I think Vorsprung designed the Luftkappe around 160 or 170mm fork and didn't test or check how much bigger negative spring would affect smaller 140 and 150mm positive springs on shorter travel configuration.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

MarinCRO said:


> 92 piston doesn't affect negative spring. It's just different tolerance to fix issues fox had on some of it's seal heads causing stiction.


Just want to clarify this... it does. The 92SER's piston has the seal head raised as well to increase the negative air spring.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

MarinCRO said:


> 92 piston doesn't affect negative spring. It's just different tolerance to fix issues fox had on some of it's seal heads causing stiction.
> 
> Luftkappe raised the piston seal head and further increased negative spring by using smaller negative plate (effect similar to removing one of the negative plate spacers).
> 
> ...


I don't understand how the sealhead position has anything to do with travel when the transfer shaft determines this.

And yes 92 does provide a bigger negative chamber. Maybe not as slick as vorsprung. Regardless, something funky is going on with your air spring...

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## MarinCRO (Jul 31, 2013)

Ok, I didn't realize it does, but nevertheless, Luftkappe moves transfer port up, so it calls for shorter transfer shaft to maintain same travel 
With these forks, travel is regulated by how long the transfer shaft is, or bettery yet by the distance from top cap to the transfer port on the positive piston.

I don't know what's wrong but it's much nicer now with far less fork being sucked down by negative spring.

Before, if I let the air go from the positive spring, fork would get sucked down almost completely. This shows that the dimple on the transfer shaft was under the transfer hole on the seal head so that when the fork started to compress, no equalization would occur since the equalization point was already beyond the travel.

If it was working correctly, the fork would equalize when it reached equalization point at 20ish percent sag and balance both air springs.


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## jodi (May 10, 2016)

Hello,
s.o. switched to 2018/2019 and has a se92 piston head to sell?
Plz PM
jörg


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## maucina (Nov 13, 2011)

Anyone has idea how to get one of these 92se pistons in europe?


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## alan1 (Mar 22, 2007)

Just pm 92se, he posted 1 to Scotland for me, make's a huge difference.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Ok, so I’m going to service my 2018 Fox 36 180. Which fork seals/dust wipers are best? SKF green seals from Vorsprung, Push Ind low friction seals or stock Fox no flange low friction?


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

If you not worried about a few dollars difference, get the Push ulf seals. They work well. Also - a fork always feels so good after a good service.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Shredman69 said:


> Ok, so I'm going to service my 2018 Fox 36 180. Which fork seals/dust wipers are best? SKF green seals from Vorsprung, Push Ind low friction seals or stock Fox no flange low friction?





kwapik said:


> If you not worried about a few dollars difference, get the Push ulf seals. They work well. Also - a fork always feels so good after a good service.


Yeah, I don't care if they are a few $ more. I just wanted to see if anyone had experience using all of them and which they thought is best and why. Thanks for the input. :thumbsup:


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## Kelvinbenedictmtb (May 10, 2019)

For those who have tried them is there an effect when using the skf seals? Is it worth the extra money?


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Kelvinbenedictmtb said:


> For those who have tried them is there an effect when using the skf seals? Is it worth the extra money?


It's the only ones I order (green skf)

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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Get the push seals. They are the best.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

alexbn921 said:


> Get the push seals. They are the best.


Ok, 2 votes for Push, 1 for SKF so far... Anyone who has tried both and has a preference?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Kelvinbenedictmtb said:


> For those who have tried them is there an effect when using the skf seals? Is it worth the extra money?


The SKF green seals outlast all the other low friction seals I have seen. They also have no issues with the thickest and heaviest bath oils.
Out of the hundreds of sets we fit and sell every year we've replaced 2 that leaked. One we couldn't find any issue. The other were assembled dry and likely got a lip damaged then.

You've got two major players (SKF and Trelleborg) making pretty much everyones seals these days.


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## nmxtrdr (Sep 30, 2008)

Shredman69 said:


> Ok, 2 votes for Push, 1 for SKF so far... Anyone who has tried both and has a preference?


For dry conditions Push are better than SKF. The Push seals have less stiction and are better at keeping dust out than the previous set of SKF Green seals.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

nmxtrdr said:


> For dry conditions Push are better than SKF. The Push seals have less stiction and are better at keeping dust out than the previous set of SKF Green seals.


Good to know. Seems like either would be a good choice, but since I live in the dry dust bowl of So Cal, that makes the decision easier. Thanks for the info.:thumbsup:


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

SKF makes push and fox seals. Push use the maximum amount of friction reduction material and that's why they cost more. I've used Fox, SKF and Push. Push ones are my favorite.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> SKF makes push and fox seals. Push use the maximum amount of friction reduction material and that's why they cost more. I've used Fox, SKF and Push. Push ones are my favorite.


The profile of these seals screams "Trelleborg":








https://www.pushindustries.com/products/push-ultra-low-friction-fork-seal-kit

RS Trelleborg OEM:









SKF use a completely different lip profile to SKF that can be clearly seen in all their OEM and aftermarket seals.

RS SKF OEM:









SKF Green aftermarket: https://www.jensonusa.com/globalass...all-assets/skf/fk209f01.jpg?w=1000&quality=85


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

alexbn921 said:


> SKF makes push and fox seals. Push use the maximum amount of friction reduction material and that's why they cost more. I've used Fox, SKF and Push. Push ones are my favorite.


That's what I was looking for. Thanks for the info.:thumbsup:


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Shredman69 said:


> That's what I was looking for. Thanks for the info.:thumbsup:


You may wish to check that info.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Dougal said:


> You may wish to check that info.


You may be right. recently push was intentional vague about who made there seals.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

Dougal said:


> You may wish to check that info.


I don't really care if the Push seals are made by SKF or Trelleborg. If the consensus is that they are better in dusty conditions and they have less friction than the competition, then that's most likely what I'll go with. Like I previously said, I'm sure they're both really good, but I want to go with what's best for my conditions.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

alexbn921 said:


> You may be right. I was told 10 plus years ago that SKF made the push seals and they don't seem to have changed over that time. Although recently push was intentional vague about who made there seals.


I don't believe the Push seals have been out 10 years?.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Rick Draper said:


> I don't believe the Push seals have been out 10 years?.


Damn my memory must be going. I looked it up and they came out at the beginning of 2015.


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## BossLog (Jan 28, 2015)

OP Any luck getting that 36 feeling less harsh and riding right? 

Been 3 months on a stock Ripmo GX with the 36 Performance and it feels just like your description. One last tuning rock to turn over for me is lowering air to 60PSI (165lb rider), adding volume spacers and using the single compression adjustment of the Performance to increase general compression. If that doesn't work I'll probably get it serviced and add a Luftkappe. 

I'd take the DVO Diamond or Lyrik I rode previously all day over this fork TBH.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

BossLog said:


> OP Any luck getting that 36 feeling less harsh and riding right?
> 
> Been 3 months on a stock Ripmo GX with the 36 Performance and it feels just like your description. One last tuning rock to turn over for me is lowering air to 60PSI (165lb rider), adding volume spacers and using the single compression adjustment of the Performance to increase general compression. If that doesn't work I'll probably get it serviced and add a Luftkappe.
> 
> I'd take the DVO Diamond or Lyrik I rode previously all day over this fork TBH.


Luftkappe will help but won't affect the damper, I recommend starting with using a lighter weight oil. Mine feels much more manageable after doing that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slurry (Dec 23, 2008)

I bought a lightly-used 2018 Fox Factory 36 with the RC2 style damper (high/low speed compression, low speed rebound; is this just a 'FIT' damper?). Has the EVOL air spring (which I was told was a 2019 product that the original owner installed on this 2018 fork).

45 PSI and 1 token gives me the support I want (which is odd as the listed pressure for my 200LBS is 80-90 PSI, which would be unrideable).

My LSC and HSC are almost always completely open, and I have between 7-9 clicks of rebound (from open). The initial stroke of the fork is super plush, and overall the compression damping is fine: perhaps a bit harsh on trail rides, but really nice when riding harder/faster.

However, when the weather gets colder, I feel like I want even less compression damping to make the fork not so harsh. If my LSC/HSC are already fully open, do I need to run a lighter weight oil in the damper?


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Slurry said:


> I bought a lightly-used 2018 Fox Factory 36 with the RC2 style damper (high/low speed compression, low speed rebound; is this just a 'FIT' damper?). Has the EVOL air spring (which I was told was a 2019 product that the original owner installed on this 2018 fork).
> 
> 45 PSI and 1 token gives me the support I want (which is odd as the listed pressure for my 200LBS is 80-90 PSI, which would be unrideable).
> 
> ...


Not necessarily lighter, but a good quality oil that is less temperature sensitive would be a good idea. The stock oils thicken up a lot in the cold. Also change the bath oil to something thinner will help too.

45psi is incredibly low so I would maybe double check your gauge is accurate? If it is then sweet as, whatever works!


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Shredman69 said:


> I don't really care if the Push seals are made by SKF or Trelleborg. If the consensus is that they are better in dusty conditions and they have less friction than the competition, then that's most likely what I'll go with. Like I previously said, I'm sure they're both really good, but I want to go with what's best for my conditions.


Hey, Shred. 
I'm Socal also. I don't care if the seals are made in Lockheed's Skunkworks or a guy in a hut in Pakistan, Push's seals perform well for me. If someone wants me to work on their fork, Push seals are among the parts that they need to bring.


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## Slurry (Dec 23, 2008)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Not necessarily lighter, but a good quality oil that is less temperature sensitive would be a good idea. The stock oils thicken up a lot in the cold. Also change the bath oil to something thinner will help too.
> 
> 45psi is incredibly low so I would maybe double check your gauge is accurate? If it is then sweet as, whatever works!


Just to be clear, would a thinner (lower VG) oil allow me to get more use out of my compression adjusters?

I have been doing lowers services with the normal Fox 20wt Gold. What would you use instead of this?

No idea if shock gauge is accurate, but 45-50 PSI has been the sweet spot for me.


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## Shredman69 (Apr 1, 2007)

RustyIron said:


> Hey, Shred.
> I'm Socal also. I don't care if the seals are made in Lockheed's Skunkworks or a guy in a hut in Pakistan, Push's seals perform well for me. If someone wants me to work on their fork, Push seals are among the parts that they need to bring.


Good to know. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find Push seals in stock anywhere so I ended up going with SKF. Next time I need to service the fork I'm going to try the Push seals. No complaints with the SKF so far either. So far so good. :thumbsup:


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

Slurry said:


> Just to be clear, would a thinner (lower VG) oil allow me to get more use out of my compression adjusters?
> 
> I have been doing lowers services with the normal Fox 20wt Gold. What would you use instead of this?
> 
> No idea if shock gauge is accurate, but 45-50 PSI has been the sweet spot for me.


It did for me. Certainly a first step before you start messing with shim stacks.

I was wide open with stock oil. I am now around 5-8 clicks from open (I know typically count from closed)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Slurry said:


> Just to be clear, would a thinner (lower VG) oil allow me to get more use out of my compression adjusters?
> 
> I have been doing lowers services with the normal Fox 20wt Gold. What would you use instead of this?
> 
> No idea if shock gauge is accurate, but 45-50 PSI has been the sweet spot for me.


The lighter oil will give you a small change in the range of low speed compression, but no effect at high speed

How cold are you talking? Depends on availability but Rockshox 0w-30 is a very good alternative, or roughly any 10wt oil branded as "fork oil" (instead of shock or damper oil) with a VI around 150 or less should work better in theory if you can't find anything else. Below about 10*c is where oils start to change quite rapidly so the further you are below that, the more important it is

Dougal has a comparison of viscosity change with respect to temperature here -

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-oils/fork-bath-oils


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## Slurry (Dec 23, 2008)

JohnnyC7 said:


> The lighter oil will give you a small change in the range of low speed compression, but no effect at high speed
> 
> How cold are you talking? Depends on availability but Rockshox 0w-30 is a very good alternative, or roughly any 10wt oil branded as "fork oil" (instead of shock or damper oil) with a VI around 150 or less should work better in theory if you can't find anything else. Below about 10*c is where oils start to change quite rapidly so the further you are below that, the more important it is
> 
> ...


So I tried a lighter weight oil, and it didn't make much of a difference.

PUSH in the USA says they can rework the compression circuit to improve the fork, specifically a highspeed compression spring that is half as stiff, and some reworking to the low speed compression shim stack. They don't sell just the parts, only the complete service; I'm fine spending the money but only if it makes a difference.

They also have $400 coil conversions but I don't know if I'm ready for that.

Anyone have their Fox36 RC2 reworked by PUSH?


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

Here's the thread on the Push ACS-3:

https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/push-acs-3-coil-conversion-kit-1050590.html

Vorsprung also has a coil conversion called the Smashpot:

https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/vorsprung-smashpot-coil-conversion-1090922.html


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## Slurry (Dec 23, 2008)

kwapik said:


> Here's the thread on the Push ACS-3:
> 
> https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/push-acs-3-coil-conversion-kit-1050590.html
> 
> ...


Yeah I was looking at both of those, but as I mentioned earlier, im not sure if I'm ready for $380-420 for a coil if a $120 damper change will get me what I need.

I converted another old fork with a poorly designed air spring over to a coil and it improved the fork dramatically, so I'm familiar with the coil feeling. That particular conversion only cost me $70.


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## bemmer (May 12, 2013)

Please, give me advice: Will I get an improvment if I change my 36 Fit4 2017 to 36 Grip2 2020? Now my fork is feeling harsh on small bumps and my handpalm hurts after riding rock gardens. Or it will be better to spend my money to upgrade existing fork with luftkappe piston?
I'm 78 kg equipped, 65-67 Psi with 1 orange+1 blue tokens. Fork use a 90% of full travel, but i don't ride jump drops.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I would start with a Luftkappe, push seals and fresh fluid. Just servicing it should bring back the new fork feel.
The grip2 is a drop in upgrade too. Cycle your fit4 damper with the lowers off and see if it is hard to move. If it slides smooth then a Grip2 will only be a upgrade as far as adjustments go. If the Fit4 has a ton of sticktion then it needs serviced or replaced.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

I'd go with tractive and bushing tolerance check. You can have best damper and with tight bushing fork is still crap.


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

IMHO, that FIT4 damper is terribly harsh. I installed an RC2 damper with noticeable improvement. I imagine the GRIP2 damper would help at least as much. It's still not a plush fork, but it literally pinged off of rocks and roots with the FIT4. Now it moves, though I'd still dial in a lighter HS comp damping if I could. I will probably install a Luftkappe soon and see if that further helps.

AM.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

Hey guys,

so, I am reading that previous versions of 36 had problems with a tolerance of the air piston. 92SE-R (also luftkappe) was supposed to solve that.

Is this potential issue also present with newer versions (2019, 2020)? How can a fork be reliably tested for this? If you measure the piston, what should the size be? If it is on the larger side, can it be carefully sanded down a bit?

tnx


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

This is how air spring piston looked like on my 36:









full of grease.


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

Very common occurrence


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## bemmer (May 12, 2013)

bemmer said:


> Please, give me advice: Will I get an improvment if I change my 36 Fit4 2017 to 36 Grip2 2020? Now my fork is feeling harsh on small bumps and my handpalm hurts after riding rock gardens. Or it will be better to spend my money to upgrade existing fork with luftkappe piston?
> I'm 78 kg equipped, 65-67 Psi with 1 orange+1 blue tokens. Fork use a 90% of full travel, but i don't ride jump drops.


Small update: installed Luftkappe. During installation i didn't move internal shaft 1 hole up, so now I have 170-174 mm of stanchions from seals to crown (was 165 mm before).
Added 8 psi and removed 1 orange token (no tokens now). Sag 20-22%.
Had a short ride, with small drops and gaps, but due to cold weather (-4,5С) I didn't feel any improvments. Usually my fork use 70-80% of travel (at a home spot), now it was only 50-60%. At home inital stroke was a little softer.
Complete test and report will be only after big mountains in the Spring.
Is it possible to remove top out bumper now (to increase negative chamber a little more) or it's still necessary?


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

bemmer said:


> Small update: installed Luftkappe. During installation i didn't move internal shaft 1 hole up, so now I have 170-174 mm of stanchions from seals to crown (was 165 mm before).
> Added 8 psi and removed 1 orange token (no tokens now). Sag 20-22%.
> Had a short ride, with small drops and gaps, but due to cold weather (-4,5С) I didn't feel any improvments. Usually my fork use 70-80% of travel (at a home spot), now it was only 50-60%. At home inital stroke was a little softer.
> Complete test and report will be only after big mountains in the Spring.
> Is it possible to remove top out bumper now (to increase negative chamber a little more) or it's still necessary?


You need to move the internal rod or else you won't have the full increase in negative volume. If you remove the top out bumper you might risk the bushings not overlapping properly at top out


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

s-master said:


> This is how air spring piston looked like on my 36:
> 
> View attachment 1293457
> 
> ...


Be sure to recoat the inside leg or stanchion. It will ride like a new fork & may need a few more PSI. Slickoleum is pretty cheap.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

When installed properly is the Luftkappe the best VFM option?


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

ttchad said:


> Be sure to recoat the inside leg or stanchion. It will ride like a new fork & may need a few more PSI. Slickoleum is pretty cheap.


I did. 
For the similar "percieved harshnes" I could increase pressure from cca 62PSI to 72PSI. It feels much better.

Mind you, this was 3 weeks old fork.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

I have installed the Luftkappe and experimented with psi & rebound and I have to admit that the 36 performs so much better.


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## panzer103 (Jun 23, 2008)

I freaking hate my 36. You guessed it-harsh.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

panzer103 said:


> I freaking hate my 36. You guessed it-harsh.


Have you serviced it?


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

Yeah... Get an aftermarket air piston, take the thing apart, thin coat of grease, you're good to go!


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

Aftermarket air piston as a luftkappe? Are there any other options for the 2019+ forks? Who is installing these in central europe?


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

s-master said:


> Aftermarket air piston as a luftkappe? Are there any other options for the 2019+ forks? Who is installing these in central europe?


That's the best upgrade you can do for your fork. Also I like push seals the best.

Friction is the enemy of performance. Take your fork lowers off and depressurize your air spring. Your air spring shaft should move with very little force. Next cycle your damper and it should move easily too. the last steep is to check the bushing. Slide your lowers onto the fork with both the air spring shaft and damper shaft pushed into the fork legs and feel for friction.

If something is sticking then this is your harshness and needs addressed. Every part of my fork slides butter smooth and the Grip2 damper has the least friction of any damper I've ever cycled.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

My 2016 Fit4 was uncomfortably harsh until I installed the Luftkappe and removed all of the volume spacers. It works very well now. Very happy with the Luftkappe.


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

So I have a 2015/2016 with the original bushings. Is it necessary to replace bushings annually if you drop the lowers several times a year & apply a lot of Slicko or slick honey on the bushings? I have not noticed any stanchion wear & really do not want to add any stiction!

Fork rides great, Soft off the top and holds a line well even through breaking bumps or gnar.

Half of an MRP kit to separate pos/neg pressure. 92S piston on the air side spring side. Originally 150 then bumped up to 180. 0LSC & 0 HSC or full open. 1 Blu spacer cut in half or ground down.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

No if the fork is well looked after the bushings will almost last indefinitely.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

Here's my story.

I have been riding a Transition Bottlerocket for the longest time with a Pike RC (650b fork from a 2015 Nomad). I LOVE how that fork feels.

A couple of weeks ago, I took the plunge and got a "modern" bike... a brand new 2018 Cannondale Jekyll Carbon 1 that came with a Fox Factory 36 (FIT, RC2). After the new bike stoke wore off, I noticed that the fork felt harsh on the chattery stuff and my first course of action was to lower psi to 40 and remove the one blue token (and burped out the seals). I don't think that made any improvement. But riding it around I noticed that it was packing a fair bit so I sped up the rebound and reverted back to the recommended pressure settings for my weight (160 lbs geared, around 60 psi). I will test this set-up to see if I was just experiencing "packing".

If it does turn out that it is too harsh, how would be the sequential course of action? Again, this is a new fork. With no air spring pressure, I can definitely feel significant stiction. I am not looking for ultimate performance, just something Pike-supple. Also looking for the most economical route. Should I start out with the MRP Fulfill ($50?) as the best combo of performance improvement + value?


----------



## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

ron m. said:


> Here's my story.
> 
> I have been riding a Transition Bottlerocket for the longest time with a Pike RC (650b fork from a 2015 Nomad). I LOVE how that fork feels.
> 
> ...


Lowers service and bushing resize will be your quickest gain vs value, followed by a luftkappe

I wouldn't bother with the Fulfill personally


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Lowers service and bushing resize will be your quickest gain vs value, followed by a luftkappe
> 
> I wouldn't bother with the Fulfill personally


Thanks JohnnyC7. I must have missed the bushing resize discussion. Can you elaborate? Thanks!


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## digev (Mar 7, 2019)

Bushings (inside your lowers) can be tight sometimes but they can be honed/resized, to provide just the right fit for stanchions.

So 36.1mm for example so your 36mm stanchions can slide freely without too much frictions.

In order to do that you need a special tool or ask Fox to do it when you send it in for service or you need a tuner to do it for you (using the same tool)

I got one made recently and it makes a very clear difference to the feel of the fork.


----------



## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

digev said:


> Bushings (inside your lowers) can be tight sometimes but they can be honed/resized, to provide just the right fit for stanchions.
> 
> So 36.1mm for example so your 36mm stanchions can slide freely without too much frictions.
> 
> ...


Ahhh... those bushings. Thanks!

You're not in Norcal are you? =P


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## digev (Mar 7, 2019)

ron m. said:


> Ahhh... those bushings. Thanks!
> 
> You're not in Norcal are you? =P


Nope. A bit further east ... France


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## donohugeballs (Dec 17, 2015)

Does anyone know if 92-SER is still selling his custom air piston for the 2017 36 forks? I sent him a PM a few days ago but haven't heard anything back.


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## maucina (Nov 13, 2011)

I tried to reach him about a year ago but didnt get any response


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## donohugeballs (Dec 17, 2015)

Okay, thanks for the info. I guess I'll pull the trigger on a Luftkappe then.

I rode my 2017 36 Performance fork with a fresh service over the weekend and it was SO much better. I bought it used and this looks to be the first time it was serviced, as there was way too much grease on the air piston seal. No idea how much a difference that made vs. fresh grease and oil, but the fork is much smoother now...I suspect it won't last too long before excessive stiction returns but we'll see.


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## maucina (Nov 13, 2011)

I ended up selling the fork and getting used lyrik ultimate for only about 150 dollars more. That it about the price of luftkappe and i got much better fork.


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

donohugeballs said:


> Okay, thanks for the info. I guess I'll pull the trigger on a Luftkappe then.
> 
> I rode my 2017 36 Performance fork with a fresh service over the weekend and it was SO much better. I bought it used and this looks to be the first time it was serviced, as there was way too much grease on the air piston seal. No idea how much a difference that made vs. fresh grease and oil, but the fork is much smoother now...I suspect it won't last too long before excessive stiction returns but we'll see.


Try MRP Fulfill to improve the initial suppleness. For $50, it's better value and easier upgrade. I also have the SE-92R piston and DSD Runt along with MRP Fulfill. So good.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

Okay, I'm back on this thread. 

I bought a brand new bike early this year with the Fox 36 Factory fork (NA1). It was harsh so I sent it back to the factory for warranty service. They inspected it and said it had too much grease (also replaced some seals).

Anyway, it was marginally better BUT still harsh. I opted to upgrade to MRP Control/Fulfill combo. This seemed to make the fork better but still not Pike plush (oddly, the negative chamber will suck down travel when it is even remotely equal to the positive air pressure, so right now, positive air > negative air). MRP Control is full open.

A friend has the NA2 assembly, but I was under the impression that you can't do this conversion. Is this right? (NA1 to NA2)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ron m. said:


> Okay, I'm back on this thread.
> 
> I bought a brand new bike early this year with the Fox 36 Factory fork (NA1). It was harsh so I sent it back to the factory for warranty service. They inspected it and said it had too much grease (also replaced some seals).
> 
> ...


NA2 needs a notch inside the stanchion to work. That's the show stopper trying to upgrade.

Smashpot should be good to go through.


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## Junersun (Jun 10, 2014)

What Dougal said. Some mods being done on earlier posts with top cap and the negative spacer. I also changed my damper oil to a lighter one. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 10, 2004)

I had my 2016 working.... "okay" after swapping the 3-position Fit4 damper for an RC2 damper and keeping the seals greased. I recently replaced the whole fork with a 2019 NA2 with Grip2 and it is a noticeable improvement. Much more supple for absorbing rocks,roots, and other trail debris.

AM.


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

ron m. said:


> Okay, I'm back on this thread.
> 
> I bought a brand new bike early this year with the Fox 36 Factory fork (NA1). It was harsh so I sent it back to the factory for warranty service. They inspected it and said it had too much grease (also replaced some seals).
> 
> ...


Can you describe what is harsh about the fork? Beginning, mid, or end stroke? What travel setting? Did you remove all of the travel spacer in the bottom plate?

I have 160mm NA1 with RC2 damper, 92SER air piston, MRP FulFill, and DSD Runt, and it feels great. Having the neg chamber pressure higher can suck down the fork a little, but that is the case with Pike and Volsprung Luftkap modified Fox forks.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

ibis315 said:


> Can you describe what is harsh about the fork? Beginning, mid, or end stroke? What travel setting? Did you remove all of the travel spacer in the bottom plate?
> 
> I have 160mm NA1 with RC2 damper, 92SER air piston, MRP FulFill, and DSD Runt, and it feels great. Having the neg chamber pressure higher can suck down the fork a little, but that is the case with Pike and Volsprung Luftkap modified Fox forks.


Beginning (small bump, chatter) and maybe a smidge of mid-stroke.

I know some people don't care, but I get tired just hanging on to the bike.

I've got MRP Ramp Control + Fulfill. It's supposed to be 170mm travel but it's sucked down to 165mm right now . Just made some more adjustments. LSC and HSC open, two clicks of rebound. Positive air at 48 psi, negative at 38 psi (30 mm of sag, approx 20%). Added two clicks of tokens. I'm 155 lbs.


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## geek_inside (Sep 3, 2020)

Same kind of problem here, harshness or no good small bumps sensitivity. 
I'm 137 lbs and runs 45 psi without any token, which makes me use all my 150mm travel. 
Burping the fork helps a little definitively. I'll see during the service if there's too many grease there as it's neven been serviced yet, 2020 fork.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

geek_inside said:


> Same kind of problem here, harshness or no good small bumps sensitivity.
> I'm 137 lbs and runs 45 psi without any token, which makes me use all my 150mm travel.
> Burping the fork helps a little definitively. I'll see during the service if there's too many grease there as it's neven been serviced yet, 2020 fork.


I'm intrigued. From people I talk to, the NA2 + Grip2 damper combo solved the harshness issue. I don't think these forks were made for lighter people... lol! I joke with my buddies that Fox shouldn't be consulting Gwin for suspension tuning.


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## geek_inside (Sep 3, 2020)

ron m. said:


> I'm intrigued. From people I talk to, the NA2 + Grip2 damper combo solved the harshness issue. I don't think these forks were made for lighter people... lol! I joke with my buddies that Fox shouldn't be consulting Gwin for suspension tuning.


I have the Fit4 
I'll talk to the suspension pro guys when I'll service it to see what's the best solution for me.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Fit4 was classically harsh. You need to revavle it.


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

ron m. said:


> Beginning (small bump, chatter) and maybe a smidge of mid-stroke.
> 
> I know some people don't care, but I get tired just hanging on to the bike.
> 
> I've got MRP Ramp Control + Fulfill. It's supposed to be 170mm travel but it's sucked down to 165mm right now . Just made some more adjustments. LSC and HSC open, two clicks of rebound. Positive air at 48 psi, negative at 38 psi (30 mm of sag, approx 20%). Added two clicks of tokens. I'm 155 lbs.


[email protected] and [email protected] doesn't sound right. They should be equal at least, but optimal setting should be higher neg pressure than pos. The fork should not suck down if the pos chamber pressure is higher. First try setting the pos and neg chamber same. Forget about the fork sucking down. See how it feels with even pressure. Then try increasing the neg pressure.

Rebound at 2 clicks from fully open or closed? What damper, FIT4 or RC2? At your weight, you need revalved or try GRIP or GRIP2.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

ibis315 said:


> [email protected] and [email protected] doesn't sound right. They should be equal at least, but optimal setting should be higher neg pressure than pos. The fork should not suck down if the pos chamber pressure is higher. First try setting the pos and neg chamber same. Forget about the fork sucking down. See how it feels with even pressure. Then try increasing the neg pressure.
> 
> Rebound at 2 clicks from fully open or closed? What damper, FIT4 or RC2? At your weight, you need revalved or try GRIP or GRIP2.


Thanks for the input. It's FIT RC2. Rebound two clicks from open. I tried equal pressure, and it's sucking down more than an inch. MRP says you can have negative up to +/- 10 psi from positive from what I recall.


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

ron m. said:


> Thanks for the input. It's FIT RC2. Rebound two clicks from open. I tried equal pressure, and it's sucking down more than an inch. MRP says you can have negative up to +/- 10 psi from positive from what I recall.


At equal pressure, fork should not suck down. Standard air springs NA1/NA2 including RockShox Debonair keep equal pos and neg without any suck down. Have you burped the lowers? If lowers were installed with air spring not inflated, pressure created in the lowers cause suck down and harshness.

My riding weight is 180lbs. 70psi pos, 80psi neg, no LSC/HSC, fast rebound. No suck down what so ever.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

ibis315 said:


> At equal pressure, fork should not suck down. Standard air springs NA1/NA2 including RockShox Debonair keep equal pos and neg without any suck down. Have you burped the lowers? If lowers were installed with air spring not inflated, pressure created in the lowers cause suck down and harshness.
> 
> My riding weight is 180lbs. 70psi pos, 80psi neg, no LSC/HSC, fast rebound. No suck down what so ever.


Yep, burped it. Interestingly, I'm not an isolated case on this one. And honestly doesn't make much sense.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

ron m. said:


> Yep, burped it. Interestingly, I'm not an isolated case on this one. And honestly doesn't make much sense.


burp it on full extension, both sides and reset pressures


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

ron m. said:


> Yep, burped it. Interestingly, I'm not an isolated case on this one. And honestly doesn't make much sense.


Burp it at max extension as Nikon255 says. To do this easily, depressurize the neg, pump pos to ~100psi. That should extend the fork fully. Burp both lowers, set correct sag, then pump the neg +10psi higher than pos.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

ibis315 said:


> Burp it at max extension as Nikon255 says. To do this easily, depressurize the neg, pump pos to ~100psi. That should extend the fork fully. Burp both lowers, set correct sag, then pump the neg +10psi higher than pos.


Thanks, guys. I just tried your suggestion a while back... same result. Pumped it up to 100 psi on positive side (took out negative air pressure), confirmed full extension, burped, lowered pressure to weight recommendations initially and started adding negative pressure. Again, I could see it sucking down even 10 psi lower than positive. I ended up around where I was (48 positive, 38 negative) with 7mm loss of exposed stanchion. Who knows, that might be the ticket. I'll give it a shakedown tomorrow. Feels a bit better (also sprayed the stanchion with stanchion spray). =)


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

To answer some questions about Ramp Control/Fullfil:

The one issue with this that NA2 addresses: volume of the negative chamber. If you place the NA1 and NA2 airsprings side to side, you will see that natively, the NA2 negative chamber is nearly 2x as big as NA1 even before equalization. Even if you go 10psi over, the volume of the negative chamber isn't any bigger, it's just under more pressure than before. Although it will help in initial suppleness, it will cause a very noticeable ramp up towards bottom out starting just past midstroke. Moreso than tokens.

The other issue is that since the bottom out bumper is very deep in the negative area, if you pressurize the positive first, you are further shrinking the negative area and introducing more ramp up. Of course, the common response is to add even more negative pressure and this will make it worse yet. No amount of burping the lowers will fix this problem, it is all in the airpsring itself. 

You can address this by adding the NA2 bottom out assembly which is a spacer and bumper and use a tape measure when adding pressure to the negative chamber. The 36 NA1 commonly sits about 5mm above it's stated travel at rest. When I ran the system, I would pressurize the positive and when pressurizing the negative, press down on the fork gently until it was 5mm over it's travel (rest). I typically went about four PSI over. It's a PIA. It will make you appreciate a self-equalizing system. This is where the relationship between positive and negative volumes also shows and it is not purely about pressure.

And regarding burping: it is temporary as when you do that at full extension, all you do is introduce a vacuum that will eventually equalize. If you have to burp the system due to pressure in the lowers, especially the air side, you have a leak either in the lower seal head or negative plate.

If you want ease of use, I would recommend either 92ser's air piston or better yet the NA1 luftkappe. Cheapest would be the negative plate mod if you have enough travel spacers to play with. And yes, I have run all of these options.

And at 145lbs, you are on the ragged edge of a revalve for the RC2 setup. Most suspension is designed around a 165lb rider with a 20 lb swing in either direction. The issue I had with RC2 even at 165lbs was that there was not enough HSR to control the airspring deep in the travel (I ran my 36 at 170mm and the ramp up is big even without tokens). I would have to run the rebound in fairly far to get control which would compromise the stroke early on. Grip2 fixed that for me anyway, it just needs more frequent service. The oil gets dirty quickly.

And Ramp Control. At first I liked it but later on, I realized I preferred the constant support of tokens versus the way RC works. To me it was very on-off and I really set it once and never fiddled with it again. YRMV.

Take this information however you wish. This is from five years of playing with the same fork in varying levels and the same travel (170).

-Randy


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

tomacGTi said:


> To answer some questions about Ramp Control/Fullfil:
> 
> Take this information however you wish. This is from five years of playing with the same fork in varying levels and the same travel (170).
> 
> -Randy


Thanks for this extensive explanation, Randy.

Well, I did contact MRP and they recommended that I release built-up vacuum on the lowers by loosening the bottom cap, and then pressuring the positive side. Surprise, surprise... this didn't really work.

Anyway, was chatting with another guy and he pointed out that my RC2 is a big reason for the harshness (as I am sure it was mentioned here already). I found a Grip 1 damper for $80 and yes, the fork is a bit more supple but strangely, the fork is over-sprung for my weight (60 psi to my 153 lb weight, no gear). Dropped it down to 55 psi (I had it at 48 psi at some point but did not like how it blew through travel despite Ramp Control set to the middle).

*Last point... how can I change the static travel on this severely altered NA1fork (MRP Ramp + FulFill + Grip1)? The negative plate does not have spacers anymore, and I want to go from 170 to 180 mm. Thanks!*


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

Mine has quite a bit of binding. The bushings are not tight, they were properly sized by a reputable suspension shop. There is no play, or at least nothing excessive. But it still quickly binds on the forces that are not in line with the fork (shearing force). If you press in line with the fork, it is very smooth, but if you are sitting on your bike and riding around, you can feel that it is binding. If you turn the bike upside down and give a fork a few pushes, you force some oil into the bushings and it is a bit better, but after riding it quickly wears off and starts binding more.

Does anybody else has problem like this with their fox 36 2020 fork? I am lost at what could be done to improve the situation...


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

s-master said:


> Mine has quite a bit of binding. The bushings are not tight, they were properly sized by a reputable suspension shop. There is no play, or at least nothing excessive. But it still quickly binds on the forces that are not in line with the fork (shearing force). If you press in line with the fork, it is very smooth, but if you are sitting on your bike and riding around, you can feel that it is binding. If you turn the bike upside down and give a fork a few pushes, you force some oil into the bushings and it is a bit better, but after riding it quickly wears off and starts binding more.
> 
> Does anybody else has problem like this with their fox 36 2020 fork? I am lost at what could be done to improve the situation...


I'd say thats normal.


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## Baz113 (Jan 15, 2021)

Anyone with a spare 92SER piston? I didn’t have any luck sending a PM. Have a 2017 36 and I’d like to try the piston upgrade


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

Baz113 said:


> Anyone with a spare 92SER piston? I didn't have any luck sending a PM. Have a 2017 36 and I'd like to try the piston upgrade


You could just get NA2 airspring and MRP Fullfil. Ditch the transfer shaft and set the neg pressure manually. You get the benefit of EVOL with better control of initial feel of the fork.


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## Baz113 (Jan 15, 2021)

ibis315 said:


> You could just get NA2 airspring and MRP Fullfil. Ditch the transfer shaft and set the neg pressure manually. You get the benefit of EVOL with better control of initial feel of the fork.


My understanding is i don't have the extra dimple for volume transfer in the 2017 fox 36 stanchions. MRP fulfill is just to help with changing the air volume more precise than the air tokens.


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

Baz113 said:


> My understanding is i don't have the extra dimple for volume transfer in the 2017 fox 36 stanchions. MRP fulfill is just to help with changing the air volume more precise than the air tokens.


MRP Ramp Control does that. Fullfil allows pre-dimpled forks to ditch the transfer shaft to manually set the negative chamber pressure.









FulFill™ Spring Conversion for Fox 36


Convert your 2015-2017 Fox 36 from a self-equalizing to an independent positive/negative chamber layout! This gives you additional control of the initial stroke and allows you to tune suppleness. Compatible w/ 2015-2017 26/27.5/29 Fox 36 forks in all travels w/ Float Air Spring. Not compatible...



mrpbike.com


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## Baz113 (Jan 15, 2021)

you’re right, thanks for the correction. Would still prefer just a piston upgrade just for the ease of not needing to worry about 2 chamber pressures. I also have a coil which I must admit is nice in that I dont worry about checking air pressures every few rides.


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## neil_240 (Jan 2, 2010)

ibis315 said:


> MRP Ramp Control does that. Fullfil allows pre-dimpled forks to ditch the transfer shaft to manually set the negative chamber pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could this Fullfil be using on newer forks that have the dimple?

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

neil_240 said:


> Could this Fullfil be using on newer forks that have the dimple?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk


No. The dimple connects positive and negative chambers together allowing pressure equalization between the two. With Fulfill, filling up the negative chamber will pressurize the positive chamber at the same time.


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## neil_240 (Jan 2, 2010)

ibis315 said:


> No. The dimple connects positive and negative chambers together allowing pressure equalization between the two. With Fulfill, filling up the negative chamber will pressurize the positive chamber at the same time.


I was thinking about this more as I have a Z1 and there is no Luftkappe for it to help with the negative volume.

My fork came 170, and I've changed it down to 150 for my bike. Next time I drop the lowers I might look at if the 170 spring could be spaced passed the dimple. Then this part might work to make it a dual air. I remember reading about a few people doing a simple change to some rockshox revealtion forks.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

neil_240 said:


> I was thinking about this more as I have a Z1 and there is no Luftkappe for it to help with the negative volume.
> 
> My fork came 170, and I've changed it down to 150 for my bike. Next time I drop the lowers I might look at if the 170 spring could be spaced passed the dimple. Then this part might work to make it a dual air. I remember reading about a few people doing a simple change to some rockshox revealtion forks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk


Secus is what you want!


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

neil_240 said:


> I was thinking about this more as I have a Z1 and there is no Luftkappe for it to help with the negative volume.
> 
> My fork came 170, and I've changed it down to 150 for my bike. Next time I drop the lowers I might look at if the 170 spring could be spaced passed the dimple. Then this part might work to make it a dual air. I remember reading about a few people doing a simple change to some rockshox revealtion forks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk


Stick a spacer between the air piston and the top-out bumper. That increases the neg volume and pushes the air piston past the dimple thereby keeping the pos and neg chambers separate. If Fulfill valve fits Z1, then you'll have a dual air setup.

Another "free" hack I've done is fill the stock air spring to higher air pressure and equalize both chambers. Then while compressing the fork drop the pos air pressure to allow neg pressure to push the air piston above the dimple. This reduced overall travel but made the neg chamber larger. Tuning is harder since it's trial and error to find the initial and final pressure to balance the pos/neg volume to find the right static riding height, sag, and feel.

Your 170 spring would create a huge neg volume if your travel goal is 150.


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## 69tr6r (Mar 27, 2007)

Digging up this old thread because I just bought a used 2016 Fox 36 170mm fork. It seems the fork was lightly used, and was serviced by Fox in June of 2021 with paperwork included, and then never ridden again before I bought it. The first few rides, after coming from a Fox 34, were really great. I felt the fork to be much stiffer (in a good way) and with the extra travel I was pretty happy. 

Now my hands go numb from small bumps and chatter. I can see the fork doesn't budge when riding slowly over small stuff. I tried adjusting air pressure, zip tie air release trick, opened all of the compression dials, and storing the bike upside down. Nothing has helped - stiction, I feel, is the problem. 

I read most of this thread, and it seems like the 92SER piston was a great, inexpensive upgrade. But now unavailable?

What is the next best thing if I can't get a new air piston? If I remove my existing air piston, and have the O-ring groove turned down a bit by a machinist, will it perform better?

I was hesitant to tear into a freshly rebuilt fork, but I have to correct this problem, and would rather not throw huge money at it.

Thanks!


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

NA1 Luftkappe and run as few tokens as possible.

If you have an RC2 damper, obviously you can dial in damping to suit, if you have the Fit4 3 position, you're kind of stuck. I could never get that damper to feel good even in comparison to the RC2.


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## maucina (Nov 13, 2011)

69tr6r said:


> Digging up this old thread because I just bought a used 2016 Fox 36 170mm fork. It seems the fork was lightly used, and was serviced by Fox in June of 2021 with paperwork included, and then never ridden again before I bought it. The first few rides, after coming from a Fox 34, were really great. I felt the fork to be much stiffer (in a good way) and with the extra travel I was pretty happy.
> 
> Now my hands go numb from small bumps and chatter. I can see the fork doesn't budge when riding slowly over small stuff. I tried adjusting air pressure, zip tie air release trick, opened all of the compression dials, and storing the bike upside down. Nothing has helped - stiction, I feel, is the problem.
> 
> ...


Best option would be selling it and buying second hand 2018 or newer fox or lyrik. Problem is to small negative air chamber and only solution would be luftkappe or similiar upgrade but for that money it is better to just get another fork


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## tomacGTi (Aug 11, 2017)

If you can find a Lyric or other equivalent fork for around $100, you're either the king of deals or buying someone else's problem.

I have spent more money and time on my 2016 36 than I care to admit and also own a 2019 Grip2 36. The Luftkappe is as close as you will get to making it feel like the newer fork before spending hundred of dollars on another platform. I know: I have both. 

The newer fork obviously addressed many of the shortcomings of the older fork but the older fork can be brought pretty damn close via the aftermarket. It's your money and this is the internet. Do with the information/money as you see fit.

-Randy


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## maucina (Nov 13, 2011)

tomacGTi said:


> If you can find a Lyric or other equivalent fork for around $100, you're either the king of deals or buying someone else's problem.
> 
> I have spent more money and time on my 2016 36 than I care to admit and also own a 2019 Grip2 36. The Luftkappe is as close as you will get to making it feel like the newer fork before spending hundred of dollars on another platform. I know: I have both.
> 
> ...


I meant selling old fork and buying another. I sold by old fox 36 factory fit4 2017 and bought used lyrik ultimate 2020 for just 100 dollar difference. And those 2 forks cant even compare to each other.


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## 69tr6r (Mar 27, 2007)

Thank you guys! I have the RC2 damper. I have considered selling the fork and buying a new DVO, since I've heard nothing but good things. Plus I'm kind of done with used forks, since you never really know what you're getting. 

I see the Luftkappe is about $155 plus shipping. Not terrible, but that hurts to add on top of the price I paid for the fork too. At least this fork is in very good condition, and it fits my non-boost wheel.


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## maucina (Nov 13, 2011)

69tr6r said:


> Thank you guys! I have the RC2 damper. I have considered selling the fork and buying a new DVO, since I've heard nothing but good things. Plus I'm kind of done with used forks, since you never really know what you're getting.
> 
> I see the Luftkappe is about $155 plus shipping. Not terrible, but that hurts to add on top of the price I paid for the fork too. At least this fork is in very good condition, and it fits my non-boost wheel.


You can always get adapter for non boost wheel to boost. Very simple and cheap


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## 69tr6r (Mar 27, 2007)

Agreed maucina.

Do you guys think I can reduce stiction by turning the Air Piston O-ring groove down a few thou? I feel like I've got nothing to lose by trying that.

Anyone have a 92SER piston they want to sell?

Thanks!


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## maucina (Nov 13, 2011)

For me stiction was not the problem. Mine was really smooth when testing on parking but was very non active on first part of travel. First part of travel is to stiff because of small negative air chamber. Evol air spring fixed that in 2018 but is not backwards compatible


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## 69tr6r (Mar 27, 2007)

maucina said:


> For me stiction was not the problem. Mine was really smooth when testing on parking but was very non active on first part of travel. First part of travel is to stiff because of small negative air chamber. Evol air spring fixed that in 2018 but is not backwards compatible


Yes, I suppose that I should prove what is the cause of my initial harshness. I'm assuming it is stiction, but it very well could be the small neg air chamber.

I was also considering dropping my travel from 170mm down to 160mm, for geo purposes. Does this give me a different option to increase neg air chamber, since I will be adding a 10mm neg plate spacer?


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## maucina (Nov 13, 2011)

69tr6r said:


> Yes, I suppose that I should prove what is the cause of my initial harshness. I'm assuming it is stiction, but it very well could be the small neg air chamber.
> 
> I was also considering dropping my travel from 170mm down to 160mm, for geo purposes. Does this give me a different option to increase neg air chamber, since I will be adding a 10mm neg plate spacer?


I dont know about that but i heard removing bottom out bumper will size up neg air chamber. But all that are just partial fixes.


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## DeoreDX (Jul 28, 2007)

69tr6r said:


> Yes, I suppose that I should prove what is the cause of my initial harshness. I'm assuming it is stiction, but it very well could be the small neg air chamber.
> 
> I was also considering dropping my travel from 170mm down to 160mm, for geo purposes. Does this give me a different option to increase neg air chamber, since I will be adding a 10mm neg plate spacer?


Adjust travel by just changing the transfer rod length. Then leave out the negative plate spacer. Viola larger negative chamber. I'm running my '16 Fox 36 at 140mm with no negative spacers. It's a much better fork at 140mm than it ever was at 160mm for me. Still not what I would describe as super plush but better than what it was.


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## 69tr6r (Mar 27, 2007)

DeoreDX said:


> Adjust travel by just changing the transfer rod length. Then leave out the negative plate spacer. Viola larger negative chamber. I'm running my '16 Fox 36 at 140mm with no negative spacers. It's a much better fork at 140mm than it ever was at 160mm for me. Still not what I would describe as super plush but better than what it was.


Aha! So I don't actually need the Neg Spacer Plate? I will definitely try that. Thanks DeoreDX!

Also, what about volume reducers? Idk what is in the fork now, but I read somewhere that the fork comes stock with one reducer installed, so I'm assuming that is the case since my fork was just rebuilt by Fox.

Should I add any volume reducers, or leave them out?


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## ttchad (Jun 28, 2007)

I can honestly say my bushings have finally broken in after 6 years. Still overly damp but no stiction, Backed out HSC/LSC, MRP valve at the bottom of the leg for fine tuning & 92SER piston. Sucks on cobblestone but great everywhere else.


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## 69tr6r (Mar 27, 2007)

I took out my air cartridge, and I had been planning on reducing the travel from 170 to 160. But when I measured my old fork and this "new" Fox 36 they had the same A-C dimension. So I left the fork at 170mm travel.
There was 1 volume reducer in there, and I removed it just to see how it rides. I feel like it is an improvement, so I will leave the fork with no volume reducers and ride it for a while. If I start bottoming on bigger hits, then I will have to decide what I want to do.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

69tr6r said:


> Agreed maucina.
> 
> Do you guys think I can reduce stiction by turning the Air Piston O-ring groove down a few thou? I feel like I've got nothing to lose by trying that.
> 
> ...


Get a smaller o-ring and stretch it on. This reduces the cross-section a little to reduce friction. Go too far and it'll leak in the cold. But it's reversible.


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## Yasera (May 10, 2020)

Hey does anybody know if 92SE-R still sells his pistons. I have an older 17 fox 36 that I'd like to get a piston for but I am new to mtbr and can't for the life of me figure out how to send a pm to him. It would also be great if someone had a luftkappe piston or 92SE-R that he/she wants to sell. 

Thanks in advance!


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## jack_steel (May 17, 2013)

Could anybody probably tell me the diameter of the seal groove of a 92SE-R piston? Unfortunately they aren't available anymore.


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