# #8 Because Knard



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

I recently pulled the shifty bits and drop bar off of #5 and bombed around SS for a little bit......and it was awesome. But I found that there is realistically not enough clearance for the big rubber with the dropouts at anything other than full swing. When really cranking on it I could get the tire to rub the chainstays. And in nasty mud or with a busted spoke things would grind to a halt pretty quickly.

So, #5 will give up it's Knards for some "thin" rubber and fenders. And it's time to build a dedicated Knard bike. I'll post more details as I finalize things. Or as I need to consult the internets as I'm trying a bunch of new (to me) stuff on this build.

Teaser Pic:


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

w00t, subscribed


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

Is that a Paragon Wishbone setup? I like the curved seat tube!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

davesauvageau said:


> Is that a Paragon Wishbone setup? I like the curved seat tube!


Dave caught a few new toys; Paragon Yoke, seat tube curved by Harbor Freight and Swag off road.

Other stuff: 
Aircraft Spruce order for 7/8 chainstays and seat tube sleeve. 
Paragon PF30 BB and Problem Solvers E46 eccentric.
Smith AW1A Kevlar hosed awesomeness.
Nova double cable mounts


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## JAGI410 (Apr 19, 2008)

Excited to see this one, hurry up already!


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey G;

Interested in your roll technique. I have considered a curved ST myself, but I'm always much too loathe to experiment with "expensive" tubing. i'd also like to do an s-bent DT, but...

I don't know how much you have played with it, but the tighter the radius, the more distortion you get at the end of your roll. 6" of scrap on either end of the radius. Did you simply press the bend or did you actually roll it? It looks too long to have been pressed with the roller. Did you roll right off the die each time on your BB end to give it a smooth bend? Did you vary the point at which you cranked the roll tighter to avoid one heavy spot of distortion? Or, is that radius simply slight enough that none of this came into play?


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

TM, I did come across those same issues. Even with the snazzy Swag OR dies. I practiced/fooled around a bit with some 3ft sections of 1 1/8 x .35 before attempting to ruin a single butt seat tube.

The rollers are obviously not made for bending part of a tube, but for a seat tube I wanted a straight section at the top for the seat tube and wanted to stop the bend well before the butted section at the BB end. 

So to get the gradual bend in the seat tube without the distortion at the ends:

I started with really light pressure on the top die and in the center of where I wanted the bend.

Rolled out to the end of where I wanted the bend on either side of center.

Centered the bend and added more pressure, and when rolling out didn't go as far as the previous time.

Repeated until I was not rolling much at all.

Hopefully that makes some sense, tough to write out the process. And I killed quite a bit of tubing getting a feel for what was nicely rolling and what was mauling into shape. There's juuuust a bit of distortion near the butted section, just pushed too far into the transition. I can't pick it up visually, just by feel. Not perfect but I'm going to use it anyway, I'm pretty confident it's not going to be the weak link here. I have a straight gauge tube that turned out better, but would require sleeves top and bottom and a 26.8 seat post.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Are you going to braze the two halves of the yoke together or tig them? I think your 
radius'd seattube looks fine the sleeve is a nice touch.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

No, G;

Your description makes perfect sense, and I understand completely. Maybe because the varied end point scheme had occurred to me as I contemplated trying it. In order to avoid the heavy distortion of the stop point of the roll being the same each time, you varied it, rolling a shorter distance each time. Perfect!

Not a photo meant to highlight that feature by any means, but your results look very good to me. That's why I wanted to know how you achieved them!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

todwil said:


> Are you going to braze the two halves of the yoke together or tig them?.....


I'm going to try and braze them. Get a nice toothy surface between the halves with plenty of flux and get as much brass in there without setting the thing on fire as I can. I may drill out a few of the the M5 threaded tooling holes, thread a stainless bolt through, and silver braze it in there. Haven't decided if that will do more harm than good though.

I talked to a couple experienced TIG folks in town, and the reputable places didn't want to touch it. A few other less reputable places were all too willing to tackle the project and would get to it after they were done MIG'n through paint on a trailer hitch. The reputable guys were a bit hung up on how to heat treat 4130 after welding. You see this pop up in this forum somewhat regularly as experienced/formally trained fabricators decide to build a bicycle frame. From what I can gather talking to these guys and the internets, the textbook for TIG'n chromo is thinking you are joining very thick hunks of metal. And that the HAZ is now by far the weakest point in the assembly unless the whole thing is properly heat treated again. With the wall thickness commonly used in bicycles that's not necessarily the case as even though the HAZ has  messed up the heat treatment near the weld, it's still not the weakest link.

I asked Engin across the tracks at Vsalon some PMW yolk questions. He was a big part of the design of the part, and said it was definitely intended to be TIG'd. I also had an email conversation with Mark at PMW and he thought the yolk could be successfully joined with gas welding. Why am I even bothering? Well in large part just because. The legitimate reasons are that I like a low bb, and with a huge wheel the actual chainstay length becomes shorter compared to the horizontal ctr of bb to dropout measurement. So I end up fighting "short" chainstay battles even though the horizontal bb-axle distance isn't that short. The yoke will let me tuck the wheel in close, without going nuts with bending/crimping the bb end of the chainstays. And with the 7/8 chainstays and hooded drops should be stiffer than the long pre bent/crimped stays/PMW lowrider drops I have on other frames. The EBB is essential here too, there's a narrow range where the yoke would have good clearance with the tire. So tensioning the chain with horizontal/swinger drops will have a narrow window where the clearance is acceptable.

If you are still reading at this point, sorry for the wordy poor explanation of what I've considered with this build. But I shall make up for it with plenty of pictures of the impending doom.

Dave and Jason, home brewed Surly Furious on tap if you want to stop buy and see what's going on.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I just personally leave a little ripple where the transition from curved to straight needs to be (if I'm using 28.6 tube/27.2 post). I actually think it looks sort of cool. 

With 31.8 you can just cut the ripple off and plug in a topper of whatever kind you want, then join the toptube and seatstays to the fused point and it looks great too.

-Walt


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

G-reg said:


> Dave and Jason, home brewed Surly Furious on tap if you want to stop buy and see what's going on.


Hell yeah man, I have to stop over some time and see this beast coming together!


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## FTMN (May 10, 2010)

G-reg - what torch handle did you have before the AW1A? 

I recently purchased that same torch... and DAMN! It's a HUGE difference from my big, old Craftsman I inherited. I've only used it for a couple joints, but I'm already in love.

What size tip are you using?


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

FTMN said:


> G-reg - what torch handle did you have before the AW1A?
> 
> I recently purchased that same torch... and DAMN! It's a HUGE difference from my big, old Craftsman I inherited. I've only used it for a couple joints, but I'm already in love.
> 
> What size tip are you using?


The frames # 0-7 were abused with this: "Chicago Electric" 

I'm REALLY happy with how the new Kevlar hosed/Smith/#2 tip compared to the cheapo/shitty hose/#2 I learned on.

If for no other reason I realize I'm cooking tubes because of my own motor skills, not due to shitty hoses or heavy torches.

I'm a BIG fan of NOVA's 2x cable housing guides. SUPER easy to braze into a butted section of tubing, and throw a 3rd full length housing there easily.

Nova Housing Guides


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Death to #6! Long live #8!

Full write up as things are finished, but here's a cell-tography pic of where #8 is at the moment:



A single commute to work and a MTB ride later today. So far I'm happy, will be a fun bike! I'll get some miles on this week and at the Chequemagon 40 next weekend.


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

How did it perform at Mountain View?!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

*Background info, Mtn view is a local trail, super rooty / tight / short punchy climbs.* 

The bike was still pretty rough with no suspension. But the big wheels ate up the roots. So I got beat up, but if I could hang on was able to carry tons of momentum through even really rough sections. 

I had issues with a sticky piston on the front brake, and removed it after the first lap. And the remaining rear brake needed a bleed and was lacking in power. So subsequent laps were made plowing into rough/rooty/sandy corners much faster than my brain/balls thought was reasonable. But I was still able to ride it out. 

The first singletrack ride did present a new issue, calf to tire clearance. The yoke let me use a 73mm bb on a wide 9er tire with short stays. Problem is I found my right calf getting zinged by the tire when in my left foot forward technical/costing stance.


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

Interesting problem!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Finish work is full tilt so that #8 is presentable for Cheq....Maybe it's the few pints of Surly Furious talking, but I can't help but call the brass filings that permeate my existence when polishing my hack-ass brazing as "Garro-Glitter." I hate to use the term *Glitter!* as it relates to a BadAssMcManlyMetalWorkingGod......but, there it is. :winker:


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

A little late on the Chequamegon 40 report. But, this bike was *made* to consume Wisconsin. I went into this weekend observing strict craft beer-6pack to single-energy-gel ratio......And I had a few Gels.

I haven't gotten into the Cheq since I donated my AC joint to the course around Mi12 in 2009. I was in good shape back then, and had a awesome starting spot via a 4am trip to the line. Well this year I started in the BACK of the pack in wave 7 riding, on the subject of this thread, a Krampus-wheeled Single Speed. I passed more folks than I expected on the first few miles before you properly dive into WisCo's grass hills. But that's where the Psudo-Fatbike-Singlespeed RAGE came into play. I was running 34x17 with big wheels, tall vs the SS 2:1 standard. So the race consisted of trying hook on to the draft and let the big wheels turn down hill, spin my ass off in the flats, and RAGE up hill.

Let me repeat....RAGE....up hill. I gritted my teeth and gave everything I had to the pedals.....and my tall gear.....and all that traction....more times than my cramping legs could count. And I'll be dammed if within that RAGE I didn't pass a bunch of people spinning up hills. I had to walk a few hills, only because it was standing room only. When I was able to RAGE around the outside of the preferred line, I was fine. And I was able to ride the "off line" with impunity! The big wheels were nearly more happy offline, and by nearly I mean the big rubber didn't give a F where it was. Starting from the back row I was able to pass nearly 1500 riders to finish 383 out of 1900 riders.

So the Paragon PF30+Problem Solvers E46 EBB + Paragon Yoke + 7/8 Chainstays get the thumbs up on silent-no-slip-big-crank-ability:thumbsup:


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

*Great job!!!*

As a fellow single speed rider I must give you kudo's where kudo's are due!

I also have had the RAGE at times.



G-reg said:


> Let me repeat....RAGE....up hill. I gritted my teeth and gave everything I had to the pedals.....and my tall gear.....and all that traction....more times than my cramping legs could count. And I'll be dammed if within that RAGE I didn't pass a bunch of people spinning up hills.


Great job and congratulations on a strong finish!!!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Thanks Mark, you even found my Strava account:thumbsup:

It was honestly the most fun I've had racing a bike in years.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

G-reg have you got any new pics of the knard bike painted up?


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

No real updates from me. Some family crap going on and work sent me to California for the month on a few days notice. 

I got the front triangle done for #9 before leaving. It's going to be a OX Platinum /SS - belt drive / disc copy of his trusty Trek XO1 commuter. The 36er Project will start after that one is finished up. And #8 will get PC'd along with #10(aka36er) whenever that is.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Hey Greg I think Im going to attempt one of these next so I have a couple questions? So after almost a year of riding this is there anything you would change? Also did you use the standardish 29er geo or did you make it all fit just the 3.0 tires, such as the BB height, HT angle? It looks like you are using the Krampus fork and that fork has more rake I beleive.

Thanx
Todd


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