# Handicapped Vetran On An Ebike



## Bfromaz (Sep 24, 2016)

I’m a veteran in my mid 50’S with severe spinal issues. My walking/hiking and running days are long gone. My legs routinely give out even on short walks.
About 4 months or so ago I tried a friends bike and found it was very low impact. After thinking about it I realized I had to have a way of getting home if I could not peddle.
That started my e-bike adventure. Not being rich I purchased a Diamondback bike and a bafang 1000w mid drive kit out of china. A kit for me and one for my wife. I put the bikes together for around $1300 each.
I still cannot believe the world this opened up for me both exercise wise and mobility wise.
From day 1 I set the bike up for exercise. A lot of folks in this forum seem to not to understand ebikes and exercise. On my Bafang I have 3 modes and a top speed. My programmed top speed is 18mph. Mode 2 give me assist to 12mph then sharply falls off. This means the faster I go over 12mph the harder it becomes. My normal street speed is 13-15mph with me doing most of the work. This ends up giving me a very good workout.
My weight and the bike top out at at 285lbs. If you think pushing that much weight around past the PA assist point is easy… go try it.
For dirt I drop down to mode 1 and at times mode 2.
I average 250-300 miles a month. I ride daily. I ride for the exercise buzz I get afterwards. That buzz does as much for me as all the drugs I’m on do.
Not everyone riding an E-bike is a lazy slacker. Some of us are old or handicapped. Or both in my case.
I cannot skydive, climb, dirtbike, hike, 4 wheel drive etc anymore. With the E-bike the trails are open once again. If I get in trouble I can always throttle out.
Next time you see an E-bike don’t be so fast to judge… 

Fyi... Had an awesome sunrise ride out here on some trails in AZ this morning. Still buzzed lol.

Bfromaz


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## matuchi (Jun 9, 2008)

It's nice to hear you have found a way to exercise and have fun. Be careful out on the road. :thumbsup:


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Ride on bro-


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

And thank you for your service!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Bfromaz said:


> Not everyone riding an E-bike is a lazy slacker. Some of us are old or handicapped. Or both in my case.


Careful, I'm the same age as you and got lambasted here for suggesting that I was getting on in years. Since you're a kindly pro e-bike veteran you might avoid that same treatment though.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

Im not sure what being a veteran has to do with it ?????

but if you've found a way to get out on a bike and further enjoy life, then god speed to you.


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## Bfromaz (Sep 24, 2016)

Veteran has everything to do with it. There are tons of vets or other wise disabled folks who could benefit from e-bikes. Even those that came back with PTSD. B


cmg71 said:


> Im not sure what being a veteran has to do with it ????? but if you've found a way to get out on a bike and further enjoy life, then god speed to you.


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## Bfromaz (Sep 24, 2016)

Thanks for the replies... 

B


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

Great to hear! Have fun out there!


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## fleboz (Apr 22, 2015)

cmg71, its okay that you don't get what a veteran has to do it with. But for those of us that do, we get it.
now does god speed on a ebike, because thats really not what they are meant for.


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

I'm a VET and I've built one so I can keep up with my daughter who is now 9. I tell you this. This forum is FULL of rude people over ebikes and the Government evidently has rules out in Moab that helps spread their offensive rudeness all over this dag on forum. Every time you mention ebike around here people want to slam it or its build worthiness without even checking why the person has an ebike in the friggin first place. I can't stand people who want to use their wits to destroy disabled VETs confidence on a forum even! Even if the government is giving them righteousness through stupid laws like banning an ebike on trails. I can't believe the bike community would sit back and let our government even do that. Oh wait. Yes I can. Because nobody cares anymore if the government takes their rights away. Just because you don't use an ebike now. Does not mean that you won't get into an accident some day and wish..."man. if the government would only let me on this trail like I use to....but I need an ebike to be able to do it"....then you will wish you had fought for your rights. That concept bleeds into EVERYTHING the government wants to take from you. Just because it's something you don't use currently does NOT mean it won't be something you will NEED in the future. How ARROGANT!

Signed, 
A real person



















Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Uh boy...

Dude, there's another yet another government conspiracy out there you should get all paranoid and indignant about. It's called the ADA. It says that disabled people can take almost any vehicle they want on almost any trail almost any where. 
Stupid government.

:skep:


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

If you truly are disabled, it should be quite easy to get an ADA placard, which would give you access to any and all multi-use trails on BLM and USFS land.

Please stop using the "handicapped veteran" schtick as a soap box to rail against the "oppressive government". They have these rules in place to protect access for everyone. Not just little ol' oppressed you. You're embarrassing the rest of us.

Love,

Le Duke


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> I'm a VET and I've built one so I can keep up with my daughter who is now 9. I tell you this. This forum is FULL of rude people over ebikes and the Government evidently has rules out in Moab that helps spread their offensive rudeness all over this dag on forum. Every time you mention ebike around here people want to slam it or its build worthiness without even checking why the person has an ebike in the friggin first place. I can't stand people who want to use their wits to destroy disabled VETs confidence on a forum even! Even if the government is giving them righteousness through stupid laws like banning an ebike on trails. I can't believe the bike community would sit back and let our government even do that. Oh wait. Yes I can. Because nobody cares anymore if the government takes their rights away. Just because you don't use an ebike now. Does not mean that you won't get into an accident some day and wish..."man. if the government would only let me on this trail like I use to....but I need an ebike to be able to do it"....then you will wish you had fought for your rights. That concept bleeds into EVERYTHING the government wants to take from you. Just because it's something you don't use currently does NOT mean it won't be something you will NEED in the future. How ARROGANT!
> 
> Signed,
> A real person
> ...


Why would we ask if you are differently abled?

If you posted that you rode illegally on a trail, on a public forum and got called out on it, you would say "I'm disabled I have every right to be on this trail". Everyone would say "ok, ride on".

Hiding it and raging against the machine doesn't help anyone, especially other disabled users that might come here.

In case you don't know each state seems to have differing standards as to what can be use on trails. If it says no motorized vehicles and someone uses one then it is against the trail use rules, just like if someone told you you can't ride these trails. Same thing. Rules are rules.

Respect that we want all trail users to follow all rules. You can't be mad that legal trail users don't want illegal uses on their trails but then want to make sure your legal right to use the same trails is respected.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

This probably wont go down well but.....



Voaraghamanthar said:


> I can't stand people who want to use their wits to destroy disabled VETs confidence on a forum even!


I find telling everyone you are a VET for no apparent reason pretty sh!t, you may be physically disabled and need an e-bike, no worries, but the reference to being a VET is like a joke l once heard.......

How do you know if someone is a vegan?
Dont worry, they'll tell you

and nobody is forcing you to read/use this "dag" forum, lm sorry (EDIT: actually lm not) but as said above, you are giving VETs a bad name with posts like that.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

cmg71 said:


> This probably wont go down well but.....
> 
> I find telling everyone you are a VET for no apparent reason pretty sh!t, you may be physically disabled and need an e-bike, no worries, but the reference to being a VET is like a joke l once heard.......
> 
> ...


My big problem with his posts is that he's making it sound like veterans are being persecuted and robbed of their rights.

We aren't. He's a victim in his own mind.

ADA placard holders have more accessibility than ever before. He brings the veteran thing into it in order to win additional sympathy, when it has nothing to do with the argument at hand.


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

Yeah like THAT is a valid reason to shut your eyes....even if it were true.

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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Yeah like THAT is a valid reason to shut your eyes....even if it were true.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


As one Vet to another, feel free to stow that **** and stop victimizing yourself.


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

I don't even know what you are talking about. All I know is I got all these complaints gathered on paper from different handicap organizations that say they are being treated unfairly and I've chose to point out this forum. All I'm saying is I keep seeing a lot of accusations against me that not a single person can honestly validate...so there must be some truth in these complaints. I'm documenting everything said here and moving it right on up the chain of command. The evidence on what the normal is in this community is staring several lawyers right in the face from what I'm being told. This has turned out to be a good start to build a case evidently. Just reporting the facts. Sorry you don't like it.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

If you're disabled, and you have an ADA placard, I fully support your right (thanks to that horrible intrusive government passing laws about it) to ride your e-bike on trails to your heart's content. Veteran or not, vegan or not. 

There is really nothing to discuss here, since nobody is trying to take away the rights of any disabled person. I just better not find pictures online of you dropping 5 footers and ripping off 3 hour fast strava rides, because that means you *don't* need an e-bike or deserve an ADA placard, you're just being lazy. 

-Walt


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> I don't even know what you are talking about. All I know is I got all these complaints gathered on paper from different handicap organizations that say they are being treated unfairly and I've chose to point out this forum. All I'm saying is I keep seeing a lot of accusations against me that not a single person can honestly validate...so there must be some truth in these complaints. I'm documenting everything said here and moving it right on up the chain of command. The evidence on what the normal is in this community is staring several lawyers right in the face from what I'm being told. This has turned out to be a good start to build a case evidently. Just reporting the facts. Sorry you don't like it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


You're document what we're saying, as private citizens, in order to do what, exactly?

To document us providing you with facts re: OPDMD, ADA, land managers, regulations, etc?

Sweet. Keep on copying and pasting. Enjoy.

What ARE the facts, as you see them?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> I don't even know what you are talking about. All I know is I got all these complaints gathered on paper from different handicap organizations that say they are being treated unfairly and I've chose to point out this forum. All I'm saying is I keep seeing a lot of accusations against me that not a single person can honestly validate...so there must be some truth in these complaints. I'm documenting everything said here and moving it right on up the chain of command. The evidence on what the normal is in this community is staring several lawyers right in the face from what I'm being told. This has turned out to be a good start to build a case evidently. Just reporting the facts. Sorry you don't like it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I doubt documenting anything here will make any difference in a class action suit. You will be fighting the federal, state and potentially local governments over the DOJ ruling. I suggest you read up on the ruling and ensure that your understanding is correct. From what I can discern this is what land managers need to do to be complaint with the DOJ ruling on trails:



> What do you need to do for your trail to be ready for March 15th when the DOJ rules on other power-driven mobility devices go into effect?
> The DOJ rules requires an entity open to the public to make reasonable modifications in its policies, practices, or procedures to allow the use of other power-driven mobility devices by individuals with mobility disabilities, UNLESS: that entity can document that it has completed an assessment of the facility, trail, route or area, before the person requesting use of the device arrived onsite, and the entity found that class of other power-driven mobility device could not be used in that location due to one or more of the following DOJ assessment factors:
> DOJ Assessment Factors:
> 
> ...


If a land manager makes this determination then this is what they have to do:


> Policies and public notice:
> DOJ rule states: "A public entity that has determined that reasonable modifications can be made in its policies, practices, or procedures to allow the use of other power-driven mobility devices should develop a policy that clearly states the circumstances under which the use of other power-driven mobility devices by individuals with a mobility disability will be permitted. It also should include clear, concise statements of specific rules governing the operation of such devices. Finally, the public entity should endeavor to provide individuals with disabilities who use other power-driven mobility devices with advanced notice of its policy regarding the use of such devices and what rules apply to the operation of these devices."


So if you come to a trail and it says no ebikes or opmd greater than a certain size or speed or type then there is no legal standing to file suit as the land managers have determined that certain devices can't be used on these trails. If you come to a trail and it says no e-bikes but nothing about opmd restrictions you are free to ride your bike wherever you please.

I suspect you will see a lot of bureaucracy and a slow process when you take suit, as this isn't private land that most trails are on but government lands and as such this takes time. I would make sure that the complaints that you have received are from legitimately denied users and that there isn't a opmd judgement posted somewhere. If could easily be on their website or posted in their main office. It is the government, they might not necessarily post it at the trail head.

I am not sure what a handicap organization is but I know that there are groups of people that assess buildings and raise suits against nonconformance. That is usually against a private owner and the result will usually be revision to the building, with judges rarely handing down punitive judgments unless it was especially egregious.

If in you one month at MTBR you have seen cases where legitimately differently abled people have been stigmatized, discriminated upon or shown disrespect I would be interested in seeing these posts. Now you can't argue that someone has been discriminated against if they weren't open about having a title II and III disability. As I said being legal on the trails is being legal. Without a disability you can be illegal on many trails with an ebike. With a disability you are legal on trails that have been determined by the land manager as being appropriate for use with your particular OPM device.

Title III: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/titleIII_2010/titleIII_2010_regulations.htm#a311 Section 36.311



> 36.311 Mobility devices.
> 
> (a) Use of wheelchairs and manually-powered mobility aids. A public accommodation shall permit individuals with mobility disabilities to use wheelchairs and manually-powered mobility aids, such as walkers, crutches, canes, braces, or other similar devices designed for use by individuals with mobility disabilities in any areas open to pedestrian use.
> (b)
> ...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Sorry you don't like it.


I'm not sure if I like it or not since I have no idea what you're trying to say. Are you saying you're trying to get a class action suit going against mountain bikers in general because forum posts are denying you a right to something?

Might be time for a check-up from the neck-up. 
For serious.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> If in you one month at MTBR you have seen cases where legitimately differently abled people have been stigmatized, discriminated upon or shown disrespect I would be interested in seeing these posts. Now you can't argue that someone has been discriminated against if they weren't open about having a title II and III disability. As I said being legal on the trails is being legal. Without a disability you can be illegal on many trails with an ebike. With a disability you are legal on trails that have been determined by the land manager as being appropriate for use with your particular OPM device.


Quoted for Emphasis. I have been pretty active on this sub-forum and have yet to see anyone attacking someone with an ADA Placard for illegal trail access when that person was upfront about having an ADA Placard.


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

I'm just reporting over what's been said. There's a couple people reviewing the inquires. Have no idea how far it will go. Just know it's got their interest. .Pretty much it.

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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> I'm just reporting over what's been said. There's a couple people reviewing the inquires. Have no idea how far it will go. Just know it's got their interest. .Pretty much it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Been said by whom and where? Are you talking about users posts here in MTBR?


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

It's bigger than just here.

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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> It's bigger than just here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


But that is my point, I don't think it is here. Please point us to posts where you think this is being done, I have yet to see them.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> It's bigger than just here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


We really are on your side, we are sympathetic to your needs. But to attempt to connect this sub-forum and its members to some vast policy that promotes institutional discrimination is quite the stretch imo.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> I'm just reporting over what's been said. There's a couple people reviewing the inquires. Have no idea how far it will go. Just know it's got their interest. .Pretty much it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


You either have to be more forthcoming with what you are talking about or less cryptic.

I have laid out what the Federal Government established with Title III which is what guides your use of trails and as I said discrimination on the trails have nothing to do with anything anyone has said on MTBR. People might have been mean on MTBR, but that isn't the same as discrimination. Perhaps you could get a potential hate speech judgement against users here but frankly most of the posts I see that have to do with accessible use are not hate filled. There is certainly a sense that some people get ADA placards to abuse them and certainly using an ADA placard to use an ebike on trails that are illegal for use with Ebikes and then posting jumping photos or strava splits seems like it is abusing the privilege afforded by the ADA guidelines but again that is not discrimination, just personal opinion.

Frankly I feel like you might be up at arms about something that is misunderstood. A good example is the WA state OPMD regulations:


> Non-motorized trails within state parks:
> 1. OPDMD use is permitted, except in classified Natural Area Preserves, provided
> the OPDMD meets the other criteria in this section.
> 2. In classified Natural Areas, Natural Forest Areas, and Heritage Areas, OPDMD
> ...


They have laid out the explicit use of OMPD's on these trails including a speed limit. Use outside the boundaries of these requirements nonconforming OPMDs would be the same as using an illegal motorized device on the trails. Each area can have different interpretations of this guideline which is intentionally vague as it allows the Land Managers to develop use strategies that won't allow an ATV on to hiking trails or bicycles into wilderness areas. Believe it or not a lot of users here have a lot of experience with Land Managers and trail development. You will get more bees with honey than vinegar.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Good lord, this has gone off the rails. Whining about the meanies at MTBR and vaguely intimating that you're going to sue someone (for what?) is a joke. You get nothing out of that kind of behavior. 

If you're disabled, go ride your e-bike. You might have to jump through a couple hoops (phone call to the park manager, etc). Such is life.

If you're not disabled, keep your e-bike off nonmotorized trails. Advocate for access and enjoy the moto trails and prove you're responsible by not poaching. Maybe you'll get access in the future.

-Walt


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

It's not my lawsuit. Never was.

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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> It's not my lawsuit. Never was.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


ah well that clears that right up.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> It's not my lawsuit. Never was.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


That's not what you said before:



> All I know is *I* got all these complaints gathered on paper from different handicap organizations that say they are being treated unfairly and *I've chose to point out this forum*. All I'm saying is I keep seeing a lot of accusations against me that not a single person can honestly validate...so there must be some truth in these complaints. *I'm documenting everything said here and moving it right on up the chain of command*. The evidence on what the normal is in this community is staring several lawyers right in the face from what I'm being told. This has turned out to be a good start to build a case evidently. Just reporting the facts. Sorry you don't like it.


So are you suing us (some of us? MTBR in it's entirety?) or not?

-Walt


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

Nobody said sue. That's a figment of imagination.

Nobody said MTBR or whatever it is your reference is to. Another figment of imagination. 

Just stop. Everything has been collected. ..it's all locked up in a vanilla folder someplace for when the day comes that these individuals wish to prosecute the state and or government. So no need to carry on the misinformation and spin. 

Thank you everyone for participating 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Nobody said sue. That's a figment of imagination.
> 
> Nobody said MTBR or whatever it is your reference is to. Another figment of imagination.
> 
> ...


No, thank you. So really it's "The Man" that's the problem. BRB, gotta call my lawyer back.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

You're going to "prosecute" the government for stuff people said on MTBR in the e-bike forum?!?

I have no idea what to make of that statement, but I guess I'll put file it away in my vanilla folder (or maybe chocolate, this might just be serious enough for the chocolate folder) for later use.

Sigh. Anyone want to talk about trail design that would help mitigate user conflict?

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Walt said:


> Anyone want to talk about trail design that would help mitigate user conflict?
> 
> -Walt


To mitigate speed differentials I would think that parallel trails would be required in most cases. That's going to rule out a lot of new trail development though, tough enough to fund them as it is. Open to other ideas/work arounds though.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Or. Parallel uphill sections. A P-line and an E-line? That could go a long way towards eliminating the uphill disparity in speeds.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I think directional trails would help a ton. Making tight radius turns and some care to keep sightlines open/add chicanes all over the place would be good too. Even just grade reversals/rollers/dips can help because speeds just have to drop to deal with those obstacles. Speed down, fun up, win-win.

I'd bet good money I could build you a trail on almost any terrain that full on motos could share with bikes and the speed differentials wouldn't be a problem. And they'd be fun as hell. Now, hikers would not go for the motos, of course, but we could do something where e-bikes would fit right in. 

But most of the legacy stuff around the west, no freaking way unless a lot of work happens.

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Walt said:


> .
> 
> But most of the legacy stuff around the west, no freaking way unless a lot of work happens.
> 
> -Walt


Therein lies the rub, that's where most people aspire to ride. Directional is a great idea but the hikers and walkers still pose something of a problem. There are many places that I simply cannot imagine for a moment hikers and e-bikes co-existing. I hesitate to name any though for fear of derailment.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Ah. A "vanilla" folder filled with statements from private citizens who don't work for the government, saved as evidence to be used to sue the government for... something.

I must say, this takes the cake for MTBR craziness.

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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Walt said:


> I think directional trails would help a ton. Making tight radius turns and some care to keep sightlines open/add chicanes all over the place would be good too. Even just grade reversals/rollers/dips can help because speeds just have to drop to deal with those obstacles. Speed down, fun up, win-win.
> 
> I'd bet good money I could build you a trail on almost any terrain that full on motos could share with bikes and the speed differentials wouldn't be a problem. And they'd be fun as hell. Now, hikers would not go for the motos, of course, but we could do something where e-bikes would fit right in.
> 
> ...


If you build new motorized trail, anyone who chooses to use it, can. It pretty much limits you to BLM or USFS, but it can happen in teh right districts. I've designed moto trail, it's essentially the same as for bikes except you have to be even more particular about grades.

I can't see parrallel trails being practical, too much localized impact. Directional trails are not allowed around here either, park policy. Cherish the legacy trails since we can't build them like they used to anymore.

I'm glad to see we've spun this completely off topic. :eekster:


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Harryman said:


> I'm glad to see we've spun this completely off topic. :eekster:


I'd say we're closer to the topic than we were with the black-helicopter sovereign-citizen stuff. I was considering trying to get a Wesley Snipes reference in there somewhere.

-Walt


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I just rode my e bike down pikes pike and ride with my ADA placard will ride Capt Jack tommower , I just turned 60 my e bike gives me the freedom to be young again it really saddens me to read the hate from the same ole haters on here. The guy is a Disabled Vet posting in a e bike forum how a e bike allows him to get out and ride again , and just like every post the e haters come out to spew there hate . Nothing good comes out of posting on this forum .


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rider95 said:


> I just rode my e bike down pikes pike and ride with my ADA placard will ride Capt Jack tommower , I just turned 60 my e bike gives me the freedom to be young again it really saddens me to read the hate from the same ole haters on here. The guy is a Disabled Vet posting in a e bike forum how a e bike allows him to get out and ride again , and just like every post the e haters come out to spew there hate . Nothing good comes out of posting on this forum .


wow, just wow. Please point us to the users hating on someone with an ADA Placard? I am not seeing it.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I have no problem with e-bikes as mobility devices for the disabled, nor (AFAIK) does anyone else here. Please do point us to the threads/posts where ADA folks are being attacked?

-Walt


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Your kidding right?? no hate for handicap e bike riders ??? lol please I have only been on here for a few months but my skin has gotten a lot thicker thanks to all the e hate .


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> I just rode my e bike down pikes pike and ride with my ADA placard will ride Capt Jack tommower , I just turned 60 my e bike gives me the freedom to be young again it really saddens me to read the hate from the same ole haters on here. The guy is a Disabled Vet posting in a e bike forum how a e bike allows him to get out and ride again , and just like every post the e haters come out to spew there hate . Nothing good comes out of posting on this forum .


Did you ride down Barr? The first couple of miles should have been interesting for you.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> Your kidding right?? no hate for handicap e bike riders ??? lol please I have only been on here for a few months but my skin has gotten a lot thicker thanks to all the e hate .


Please repost/quote any post that has indicated anything like that.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Harryman said:


> Did you ride down Barr? The first couple of miles should have been interesting for you.


That's what I was wondering. I used to ride Barr every once in a while in the 90s and we'd just park our bikes a few miles from the summit and hike the remainder. I can't imagine anyone but a pro trials rider doing it up or down.

-Walt


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Please repost/quote any post that has indicated anything like that.


This.

I have not seen anyone directing any hate or ill-will directly towards users who have made it clear they have an ADA Placard.

If you can give examples the Moderators will be happy to investigate.

Really the best thing you can do is use the report button to inform the moderators of any of these attacks you are mentioning.


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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

rider95 said:


> Your kidding right?? no hate for handicap e bike riders ??? lol please I have only been on here for a few months but my skin has gotten a lot thicker thanks to all the e hate .


Ehate is different than hating on HC riders. If and when someone discloses that they are handicapped and need the bike to ride, support is very forthcoming and understandable.

However the other thing I have seen in the disabled threads is that an ADA placard doesn't give you carte blanche right to ride all trails. Many states have varying requirements for where you can and can't ride other disability devices. Some have speed limits for those devices on trails and some ban them outright on non motorized trails. As a rider that is using ADA to access trails, it would pay to ensure that you have the permission from the land manager to use those trails. It isn't a blank check as it shouldn't be. I'm not saying that you have done this, based on your post history here, but I saw that soquel demo forest jump thread and realize that if you want to ride with something that you think is legal, it does pay to check the actual legality of it before you go ride.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

It's being done right now when stating "they can be used as mobility devices". NO! They can be used in the same manner as everyone else. When the topic of physically challenged individuals using e-assist was first approached, some self-serving individuals worried the physically challenged would get stuck in the woods implying they were mentally challenged too.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> It's being done right now when stating "they can be used as mobility devices". NO! They can be used in the same manner as everyone else. When the topic of physically challenged individuals using e-assist was first approached, some self-serving individuals worried the physically challenged would get stuck in the woods implying they were mentally challenged too.


That's quite a leap.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> It's being done right now when stating "they can be used as mobility devices". NO! They can be used in the same manner as everyone else. When the topic of physically challenged individuals using e-assist was first approached, some self-serving individuals worried the physically challenged would get stuck in the woods implying they were mentally challenged too.


Have you seen some of the recent posts here? 
Could be they might have a point. 

Far as I can tell, people are just referring to the them using the actual ADA terminology that earns them the hall pass for disabled use. "Other Power-Driven Mobility Device" defines what they are in these cases, but has nothing to do with how you use them.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fos'l said:


> It's being done right now when stating "they can be used as mobility devices". NO! They can be used in the same manner as everyone else. When the topic of physically challenged individuals using e-assist was first approached, some self-serving individuals worried the physically challenged would get stuck in the woods implying they were mentally challenged too.


How does that imply that someone is mentally challenged?

Please, explain this statement.

If someone is using an e-bike as an OPDMD, through the ADA, to access USFS, BLM, or other lands that do not allow e-bikes, yes, that is using them as mobility devices, as the name OPDMD implies.

I'm not sure what else it could possibly be, really.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

fos'l said:


> It's being done right now when stating "they can be used as mobility devices". NO! They can be used in the same manner as everyone else. When the topic of physically challenged individuals using e-assist was first approached, some self-serving individuals worried the physically challenged would get stuck in the woods implying they were mentally challenged too.


I don't think that is the case either. However I think land managers recognize that some that needs to use a mobility device to access trails will not be going as far or as deep as someone that doesn't need mobility assistance. In WA there is a 5mph max speed limit on OPMD's on trails. This is because trails are difficult and technical here and if you require mobility assistance you will be limited to the trails that are designed around a mobility device that can go 5mph. If you can get onto trails that are more difficult it is implied that you get there under your own power. This goes for bike or hiking trails and there is not hiding behind the ADA, this is per the ADA.

The DOJ requirements of Title III give land managers the option of defining what trails are accessible to what types of OPMDs because they, the Land Managers, are not only responsible for maintaining and managing these trails but also for rescue and recovery and understand how difficult a trail is.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Too big a leap; guess I was wrong & sorry. Caught shooting off my mouth when I should have been shutting it.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Too big a leap; guess I was wrong & sorry. Caught shooting off my mouth when I should have been shutting it. Thanks for the correction, and feel better now.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> Caught shooting off my mouth when I should have been shutting it.


Story of my life.

:thumbsup:

Personally, if I were using an e-bike under an ADA exemption, I would make it a point use the terms OPDMD and mobility device regularly and also doing some research and becoming a bit of an armchair expert on the subject. That American Trails site is a great resource, seriously. I actually like the idea of e-bikes as an OPDMD for folks that legitimately need them a lot. I can think of plenty of scenarios where they could make the difference between riding and not riding for someone.

Basic facts and requirements of Department of Justice Rule on Other Power Driven Mobility Devices

With knowledge comes power!


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> Story of my life.
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


I also think that many land use managers think an OPDM is a rascal scooter and are afraid that people will use these on the trails or they think people will use ATV's on the trails. They probably don't realize that people with different disabilities might use an ebike on trails and that limiting the access to just a speed limit or a wheel base length is limiting legitimate users who could use the trails.

After doing research on a local area I would call the Land Management office if the guideline interpretation is out of line with expectations. At minimum they will issue you a use permit for your vehicle and they may readdress their guideline restrictions. Colorado seems like one of the states that will possibly issue you a permit for use on trails for example and it seems the Soquel Demo forest manager will as well. I think most of these permits will be a time duration, like 1 year, so it isn't something that someone would have to do each time and if it isn't I would push the Land Manager to either issue it for a year or change the guidelines or at minimum the signage if any.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Walt said:


> That's what I was wondering. I used to ride Barr every once in a while in the 90s and we'd just park our bikes a few miles from the summit and hike the remainder. I can't imagine anyone but a pro trials rider doing it up or down.
> 
> -Walt


 I started at 7 bridges trail head up Chutes gold camp rd which was a single track on the side of a steep MT I ended up at 665 Parking lot then took spring creek single track to combine trail all the way down back to town .


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> I started at 7 bridges trail head up Chutes gold camp rd which was a single track on the side of a steep MT I ended up at 665 Parking lot then took spring creek single track to combine trail all the way down back to town .


Spring Creek is an old design project of mine, as well as a section of 665. I bet you're getting used to gravel surfing by now.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I should have just rode up High Climb rd and caught the trail there , there was a sign That said spring creek was a new trail a connecter trail to combine which had a lot of hikers on it . But I liked spring creek SO were is the sweet flowing trail through pine forest ?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

You want more trails like Spring Creek? 

A popular loop in the Canyon is Chamberlain/Chutes/Gold Camp/Buckhorn/Capt Jacks(665)/Gold Camp/Chutes/Chamberain. Which, you might have done, I can't really sort it out.

Cheyenne State park is all flowy on the S side, rocky and tech on the N side.

Falcon Trail at the USAF

Lots of loops in Red Rocks Open Space/Intemann trail/Bear Creek Park area

Palmer Park and Ute Valley Park are fun sandstone tech

Rampart Reservoir outside of Woodland Park, also Buffalo Creek which is more of a drive.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

This whole discussion is making me miss the Springs. Or maybe I miss being 19 and indestructible, which coincided...

-Walt


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