# Carbon frame durability



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Two recent MTB videos highlight carbon frame failures:

Single track sampler





JC Trails





In the former case, the failure was catastrophic and caused injury.

These vids suggests to me that despite everything I've read suggesting carbon fiber frames are as durable as aluminum, in the real world, carbon durability is still a question.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

kpdemello said:


> Two recent MTB videos highlight carbon frame failures:
> 
> Single track sampler
> 
> ...


Man, how many aluminum frames have you heard of breaking?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

2 videos=empirical data. Screw actual data with failure rates per production number, prior unknown damage, etc, etc.... Yikes. Do you use anything someone has broken two of?


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Okay. Buy aluminum.
Next!


----------



## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

kpdemello said:


> Two recent MTB videos highlight carbon frame failures:
> 
> Single track sampler
> 
> ...


Then alu durability is questionable too. Both are mature technologies engineered for the intended user and then massively overbuilt.

I've participated in about 10 frame failures (3 in moab, 2 on enchilada, ha!), and watched several more. I'm a big athletic guy whose been an expert for a long time- it happens. Catastrophic failures like that first one are scary, rare, and rarer that they're like that video where they cause a crash. I've never seen or experienced that. His crash was a perfect storm having enough speed where a pedal strike sent him otb.

The handlebar break in that video freaks me out more. For me, i make sure the parts in the front of the bike are unquestionably durable- conservative bars/stem/tire/wheel. Personally i wouldn't run a light carbon bar on a bike where i might crash more than 1-2x per year like that youtuber, but it's his body and his judgement.

Both materials have strengths and weaknesses, and design > material. Read, pay attention, use your judgement. If anything the message is that lightness sells and doesn't matter much when it's your face on the line.


----------



## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Don't continue to bomb down parts of the Whole Enchilada after you have cracked your frame... It audibly let loose and he rode it that far afterwards over very rough terrain before it finally broke all the way. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

Anything can break. A steel super alloy turbine blade busted off a jet engine a week ago, and caused the engine to blow apart in mid air.

Two major quantitative measures of bikes are weight and price. Both come at the cost of durability. 

Buy quality and may the odds be forever in your favor.


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Joe Handlebar said:


> 2 videos=empirical data. Screw actual data with failure rates per production number, prior unknown damage, etc, etc.... Yikes. Do you use anything someone has broken two of?


Do you have said actual data? I'd like to see it.

Big concern for me is that, as I understand it, carbon frames are essentially hand built by low-wage labor. That doesn't fill me with confidence that the frames are generally well-made. If I did buy a carbon frame, it would be from one of the big guys with reputations for quality and lifetime warranties, e.g. Santa Cruz, Specialized, etc.

I realize all frames break, and I have seen aluminum frames break and read about steel frames breaking. However, based on what I have seen, aluminum and steel frames usually break either in massive crashes or after many years of use. It may be just my perception but that doesn't seem to be the case with carbon. Look at the latter video - the guy was just riding a normal trail on a relatively new bike when the frame suddenly cracked.

I've also seen and heard reports of carbon wheels cracking. One guy I met on the trail was on his third warrantied wheel. Seems questionable to me.


----------



## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

It used to be someone would get a original idea and develop it themselves in a garage. Specialized, Jimmy John's sandwiches, Randall Made Knives etc.

In 2018 a person just needs a design or a marketing scheme then orders products until they get one they like then sell it as an original lie. We all love these creative millennial names too, so original... Consumers need to be more aware now than ever.


----------



## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

Carbon is totally unreliable. That is why it is not used in any high performance engineering. They would never put it on race cars, airplanes, or other vehicles. 

After 12 years with the same Monkeylite carbon handlebar and 8 years with my Blur LTc, I know it is going to fail any moment now.......

YOU don't like carbon, congratulations. Don't buy it and move along.


----------



## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

After feeling like an idiot for years for not trusting carbon, I've had five friends in the last month break carbon bikes. I know that's hardly scientific data, but it at least makes me feel like I may not be the idiot.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

oh my, now I have to dump my 12 year old Trek OCLV Carbon, my 4 year old Giant Defy,
my 4 year old Giant XTC, numerous carbon bars and seatposts, three sets of Carbon wheels...

whew so glad you posted this while I was able to read it and truly understand the mistakes I have been making. never knew those miles have been so damn risky.

lol the only carbon anything I ever broke was a paper thin carbon saddle which I loved to death but broke from one simple drop on the side...


----------



## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Carbon frames have proven to be quite durable for a number of years now. 

My only beef with them is that some of the bottom bracket designs lead to chronic rocking chair sounds (Huffy/Niner carbon frames are notoriously squawk prone).


----------



## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

They do use carbon fiber in the aerospace industry but they have very stringent quality control. Smaller companies have zero quality control as they are buying someone else's product and relabel them. 


bankerboy said:


> Carbon is totally unreliable. That is why it is not used in any high performance engineering. They would never put it on race cars, airplanes, or other vehicles.
> 
> After 12 years with the same Monkeylite carbon handlebar and 8 years with my Blur LTc, I know it is going to fail any moment now.......
> 
> YOU don't like carbon, congratulations. Don't buy it and move along.


----------



## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

kpdemello said:


> I've also seen and heard reports of carbon wheels cracking. One guy I met on the trail was on his third warrantied wheel. Seems questionable to me.


Dingus needs to run more air in his tires.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

The break on STS's video did seem a bit odd that it broke on a drop that wasn't that big. Maybe something happened to the frame that we didn't see. 

I ride a carbon frame and bars but stick with companies that have been doing it for a long time (Santa Cruz and RaceFace). I believe in the technology but not necessarily the QC for every company.


----------



## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

kpdemello said:


> I've also seen and heard reports of carbon wheels cracking. One guy I met on the trail was on his third warrantied wheel. Seems questionable to me


You "think" something is questionable and you've "heard" reports. Got it.


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Everyone is blaming frame material for failures. Its NOT the material. Its poor engineering on the part of the brand, poor manufacturing and occasionally rider misuse. Many smaller brands dont know much about carbon fiber they rely on factories and their "engineers" to sort it out. This is why the BIG brands can offer great warranties and problems are fewer and farther between. 

Big brands have their own team and own equipment to design build and test. Then final product design is sent to the factory and has oversight. Smaller brands just order based on samples that appear ok.

Combine that with demand for light weight so material and design limits are pushed.

But if CF was so bad why can the big companies offer lifetime warranties on CF frames. Not on MTBs so much because they are ridden harder.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

04 F2000SL said:


> They do use carbon fiber in the aerospace industry but they have very stringent quality control. Smaller companies have zero quality control as they are buying someone else's product and relabel them.


He was channeling his inner Samuel Clemens and dropped a loaded satire bomb.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

To clarify; the carbon breaks I've seen have all been the rider's fault, but all but one would have been no problem on an aluminum frame. If you can be certain you'll never crash, sure carbon is best... I sure as hell can't be sure of that though.


----------



## Goldberg123 (Jun 5, 2017)

RAKC Ind said:


> Everyone is blaming frame material for failures. Its NOT the material. Its poor engineering on the part of the brand, poor manufacturing and occasionally rider misuse. Many smaller brands dont know much about carbon fiber they rely on factories and their "engineers" to sort it out. This is why the BIG brands can offer great warranties and problems are fewer and farther between.


This is explained very well in the Pinkbike video posted above.

It's not about Carbon, it's about poor manufacturing.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

It looks like the failure happened where the "living link" as Spot calls it meets the seat tube. This might be an engineering issue.


----------



## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

scottzg said:


> Dingus needs to run more air in his tires.


Lol

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

The last frame I broke was an aluminum one and failure caused me to crash. I cracked my hip because of it. All frames can and will fail. Aluminum subjected to the same loads as a carbon frame can fail catastrophically too.
I abused the **** of one of the first Santa Cruz blur XC carbon bikes made it's still going strong 10 years later. The tipping point for building new frame last year was bottoming out front and rear so hard I thought the fork was going to snap off. 4+ foot drops are not good for an XC bike.


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

RAKC Ind said:


> Everyone is blaming frame material for failures. Its NOT the material. Its poor engineering on the part of the brand, poor manufacturing and occasionally rider misuse. Many smaller brands dont know much about carbon fiber they rely on factories and their "engineers" to sort it out. This is why the BIG brands can offer great warranties and problems are fewer and farther between.


I think there is truth to this. Like I said earlier, if I were to buy carbon, it'd be from a company with a good track record and a lifetime warranty. Actually I guess that's true for my aluminum frame bikes, too.

But the handlebar on the STS video was Race Face carbon and it snapped like a twig. I highly doubt an aluminum bar would have snapped like that. The bikes frames were made by BMC and Spot bikes, which I thought were pretty reputable, but I guess no where near as large and well known as some of the bigger name brands like Specialized, Trek, Santa Cruz, Giant, etc.

I know all frames break. But carbon has this reputation for lack of durability, and I would like to know if it is warranted or not. I have yet to see a study or statistics on it, so all I have to go on are these limited empirical examples.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

kpdemello said:


> But the handlebar on the STS video was Race Face carbon and it snapped like a twig. I highly doubt an aluminum bar would have snapped like that.


After he drove it into the rocky ground at full speed. After my frame had a catastrophic failure, I would care if the bars were bent or snapped.


----------



## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

jeremy3220 said:


> After he drove it into the rocky ground at full speed. After my frame had a catastrophic failure, I would care if the bars were bent or snapped.


Considering that in the video he clearly compromised the frame (it clearly audibly cracks on an earlier drop he even remarks sounded funny), ignored it and kept riding leads me to question the attention to detail used when installing and subsequently inspecting the bars.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Lojack (Feb 16, 2018)

Spot posted a comment on STS's youtube video of the crash that is interesting and provides an alternate explanation to a manufacturing defect. It will be interesting to see how this break effects Spot's reputation long term.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Negative repping everyone for not recommending a return to steel frames.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Negative repping everyone for not recommending a return to steel frames.


I broke a full chromoly bmx frame. Guess everyone should be on adamantium frames.


----------



## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Every aluminum frame I've owned has broken catastrophically.

My brother in law broke it shortly after I sold it to him.


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Lojack said:


> Spot posted a comment on STS's youtube video of the crash that is interesting and provides an alternate explanation to a manufacturing defect. It will be interesting to see how this break effects Spot's reputation long term.


I just read that comment and Alex's responses. Apparently Spot claimed the shock was under-inflated, which led to the failure, but Alex claimed it was not. The only other evidence cited was three prior crashes on the frame. Yeah sorry but if your frame is going to crack after 3 crashes, I don't really want any part of your product.


----------



## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

kpdemello said:


> I just read that comment and Alex's responses. Apparently Spot claimed the shock was under-inflated, which led to the failure, but Alex claimed it was not. The only other evidence cited was three prior crashes on the frame. Yeah sorry but if your frame is going to crack after 3 crashes, I don't really want any part of your product.


You make no sense again.

If you run an air shock that is severely underinflated that energy gets transferred straight to the frame.

"In our initial analysis, one issue is apparent-the shock was grossly under-pressured and the compression under-damped. It should have had approximately 60psi (33%) more pressure in the shock! Although it had been reported that he hadn't been bottoming out, many frames in the footage show that the o-ring was off or at least at the end of its travel."

I lend more credence to the engineers at Spot than goofy, oftentimes unprepared, Youtube guy.


----------



## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

There is one thing I know for certain. Those of you riding on carbon frames... You WILL DIE. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but you will DIE. 

Just a fact..


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

fillaroida said:


> You make no sense again.
> 
> If you run an air shock that is severely underinflated that energy gets transferred straight to the frame.
> .


Yes but Alex, the guy in the video, said he inflated the shock to factory specs. So either Alex is lying or the Spot engineer is.

Btw, how did the Spot engineer know what the pressure was in the shock? I mean I imagine maybe they analyzed the shock after the received the frame, which could be a lot longer after the incident. And who knows what could have happened to cause that shock to lose pressure between the time of the incident and the time of the analysis.

I guess one possibility is that the shock failed and lost pressure, causing Alex to think the bike felt funny, which then led to the frame failure. But I then have to ask if this kind of failure would have happened with aluminum?


----------



## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

kpdemello said:


> Btw, how did the Spot engineer know what the pressure was in the shock?


Which part of this do you find confusing?

"Although it had been reported that he hadn't been bottoming out, many frames in the footage show that the o-ring was off or at least at the end of its travel."


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

tfinator said:


> Lol
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


I second that.

Comment seriously got me chuckling!


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

You realize that Alex responded to that comment and contradicted a lot of those supposed facts, right? And that Spot has a motive to suggest that this was something other than a manufacturing or engineering defect? 

Alex claimed the o-ring was stretched out, which was why it was off the end of the shock. Also, the o-ring being off the end of the shock is certainly not definitive evidence that the shock was bottoming out. It could simply have been that the rider physically pushed it off the shock before he started to ride, or something equally as innocuous.

Why are you a Spot apologist btw?


----------



## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

STS is fun and all, but seems to be mostly a super stoked trail bro.

If I rode like him I would not be on carbon. Notice his contemporary Seth is often on an AL bike. He's ridden steel too if I remember, in hard tail form.

His handle bar broke exactly at the brake mount. I'm suspicious if that's a coincidence. 

Him crashing, then later hearing that loud crack/ bottom out should have warranted a careful bike check.

I don't know if he deserves all the blame, maybe he got a lemon. But I am skeptical.

Regarding carbon, I've had good luck and only cracked one once. Right near the brake on the chain stay on a hard tail after an endo. 

Rode the bike 10 miles on trails back to the car that day. Got it repaired for $350. And it keeps trucking thousands of miles later.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

kpdemello said:


> I just read that comment and Alex's responses. Apparently Spot claimed the shock was under-inflated, which led to the failure, but Alex claimed it was not. The only other evidence cited was three prior crashes on the frame. Yeah sorry but if your frame is going to crack after 3 crashes, I don't really want any part of your product.


I knew right away why that frame broke. I broke a frame this way in the same manner. In my case my shock was correctly inflated, but the air spring leaked during the ride.

I found the crack on a pre ride inspection, and the bad air seal when rebuilding the bike.


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

tfinator said:


> If I rode like him I would not be on carbon.


Kinda the point of the thread, I guess. Is carbon less durable than aluminum? Steel? What would you be on instead, and why?


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

scottzg said:


> I knew right away why that frame broke. I broke a frame this way in the same manner. In my case my shock was correctly inflated, but the air spring leaked during the ride.
> 
> I found the crack on a pre ride inspection, and the bad air seal when rebuilding the bike.


I think this explanation makes the most sense, but it begs the question as to whether the same failure would occur with an aluminum or steel frame.


----------



## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

kpdemello said:


> Kinda the point of the thread, I guess. Is carbon less durable than aluminum? Steel? What would you be on instead, and why?


What you want me to stay on topic?
:Crazy:

Carbon is more susceptible to a sharp rock impact. That guy ditches his bike a lot.

I like my current ride because the rear triangle is AL, so I worry a lot less about scrapes and rock impacts. My friend who repairs carbon frames for a living validated that this is a large portion of his repairs.

If I was an all mountain guy like him I would be on an all aluminum bike, no question.

In terms of landing hard and snapping, it's been shown many times carbon can withstand just as much or more than AL. But if you dump the bike twice a week for a year, the potential to crack our gouge it is too much.

In my opinion...

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

kpdemello said:


> You realize that Alex responded to that comment and contradicted a lot of those supposed facts, right? And that Spot has a motive to suggest that this was something other than a manufacturing or engineering defect?
> 
> Alex claimed the o-ring was stretched out, which was why it was off the end of the shock. Also, the o-ring being off the end of the shock is certainly not definitive evidence that the shock was bottoming out. It could simply have been that the rider physically pushed it off the shock before he started to ride, or something equally as innocuous.
> 
> Why are you a Spot apologist btw?


Why does pointing out the repeated silliness in your posts make me a "Spot apologist"? You're still not making sense.

FTR, I have never owned, nor ridden, a Spot. I did see their carbon bikes for the first time at the Hurricane MTB fest though - both on display, out for demo on the trails, and being used for the log pulling contest. They didn't seem special.

If you really imagine that Youtube guy's seat post broke due to a engineering defect please explain why none of the other Spots on that ride broke.

Edit, update from Spot:

"Got the o-ring right here and it's in perfect functioning condition. No stretch whatsoever.﻿"


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

tfinator said:


> Carbon is more susceptible to a sharp rock impact. That guy ditches his bike a lot.
> 
> I like my current ride because the rear triangle is AL, so I worry a lot less about scrapes and rock impacts. My friend who repairs carbon frames for a living validated that this is a large portion of his repairs.
> 
> ...


This is pretty much my take as well, which is why I ride Aluminum. I considered carbon but the susceptibility to damage as compared to aluminum, along with the higher cost and negligible weight benefit put me off from it. Still, I'm carbon-curious, so when I saw these videos I decided to post them and see what other people's experiences were.

Seems like a lot of people have very strong personal feelings about it.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

JoePAz said:


> There is one thing I know for certain. Those of you riding on carbon frames... You WILL DIE. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but you will DIE.
> 
> Just a fact..


I have a will for this very reason.


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

This is why I only ride frames made from Unobtainium.


----------



## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

jeremy3220 said:


> It looks like the failure happened where the "living link" as Spot calls it meets the seat tube. This might be an engineering issue.


This. Looks like a construction/layup issue. I've had aluminium frames break in the same place. 3 times for one brand, where the tube wall was too thin. 
Carbon is only as good as the layup, and often ends up as heavy as aluminium. See how heavy carbon rims are getting...


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I watched the video multiple times, when the crack happened he bottomed out.

I didn't even know that bike brand existed lol. Thought maybe the company doing the rides put their own stickers on till reading more here.

He said "inflated to factory specs". Except factory specs are always ranges and was the pump that accurate? We know he bottomed out when the frame cracked on something he shouldn't have bottomed out on. So that screams the shock not being set right. Factory specs are always a starting point, if it was his bike then it would have been dialed. Notice the bike he got back on from the guide was the same bike down to the color. So was it a rental that others haven't set up correctly and how many bad landings and bottom outside did it endure prior to the failure?

Now granted there is a lot of things missing and unknown. Likely a list of issues from rider and set up mistakes to that part of the frame not being reinforced properly for the loads it had to deal with. All we do know is that bike had been ridden hard.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Not sure I want a frame that has the potential to crack if my rear shock happens to be low on pressure. Is that a legit concern to have?


----------



## nauc (Sep 9, 2009)

who cares if the shock was low, my aluminum hardtail wouldnt of broke


----------



## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

RS VR6 said:


> Not sure I want a frame that has the potential to crack if my rear shock happens to be low on pressure. Is that a legit concern to have?


Yeah. The bike i broke in this manner was aluminum. Granted it didn't explode and dump me on my face; i found the crack and took the steel hardtail to moab instead. ...Which was stupid fun, actually. Even enchilada.

No bike frame is designed to be able to handle a shock with hardly a spring supporting it- the forces there are enormous. If that freaks you out then get a coil.

edit- i can't believe that's how Spot responded to the video.


----------



## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

kpdemello said:


> Do you have said actual data? I'd like to see it.
> 
> Look around, you'll find it. FWIW I spent 12 years in the bike industry, 6 of those years were actually building custom frames.
> 
> ...


 I've broken every rim I've ever had from Sun Ringle. But I don't doubt aluminum rims as a whole. For the record, I've never owned a pair of carbon rims.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

So according to Spot, you should never bottom out your suspension? Even if the ring was off the shock, it just takes one bottom out to do it..


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

> Look around, you'll find it.


I have, and I have not found it. So if you have something, feel free to share.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Carbon is as strong or as weak as you make it!

Check this out.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

knutso said:


> Anything can break. A steel super alloy turbine blade busted off a jet engine a week ago, and caused the engine to blow apart in mid air.
> 
> Two major quantitative measures of bikes are weight and price. Both come at the cost of durability.
> 
> Buy quality and may the odds be forever in your favor.


That was a compressor blade and really better described as a fan blade, as it's primary function is to provide thrust (vs later compressor stages). The turbine blades ARE usually the ones with the most exotic manufacturing process (single crystal alloys, etc.). Modern fan blades are composite now, but those 737s with the cfm56 were made before that became the primary way of doing it.


----------



## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

kpdemello said:


> I have, and I have not found it. So if you have something, feel free to share.


https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm

DigiTool Stream Gateway Error

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/carbon-fiber-properties

This took like 3 minutes maybe.

My point being, It's just my opinion your basing a "judgement" on a material as a whole based on two videos. Did you even look to see how many videos, stories, articles, or anything about actual failure rates for ALL materials? Just for reference, whatever brand and model car you drive...right now...more than two of them have had a failure. This doesn't mean cars made with "that feature which failed" are all bad. Carbon as a whole has incredible properties, and yes, sometimes people make stuff that breaks. If you've heard of Zipp components, you may know the founder came from the motorsports industry which routinely designs extremely high performance parts that endure VASTLY more punishment that a bike frame. Imagine driving over 200 miles an hour in a car with carbon structural parts AND drivetrain parts. Look, please ride whatever you feel safe on, but it's rather silly to watch two videos and "be doubtful".


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Thanks for sharing. From the first link:



> A caveat, though, is appropriate: the results hold for a frame which is ridden hard but not damaged or abused: corrosion, nicks, dents, scratches and stresses due to incorrect installation of components could alter the results, as the article itself notes.


That's the primary concern here - in the real world, bikes arent just ridden hard, theyre crashed, knicked by rock strikes, etc. This study does not address which material holds up better in those circumstances.

The second link didnt work. The third didnt appear to be a study.

Fyi my opinion isnt based on two videos, but numerous experiences and empirical evidence, of which the two aboove videos are just two data points.


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

scottzg said:


> edit- i can't believe that's how Spot responded to the video.


No kidding. They'd have gotten much better press if they started out by saying they fully intend to warranty the frame, talked about their engineering and qc, and then speculated that it may have been a shock failure rather than blaming the user. My gut reaction was, geeze, never buy carbon from spot because if you have a warranty issue they'll try to screw you.


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Plenty of videos on y tube of aluminum frames breaking. Don't you guys watch Pinkbike's Friday Fails? 

I don't see anything wrong with Spot frames.


----------



## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

The problem is they order (they don't make anything) an extremely small number of frames when compared to even another small company. Really even one failure is too many when you sell such a low number.

These start up companies all begin with someone that has either been left a bunch of money or made a bunch of money from investments. Typically they own multiple start ups in hopes to sell one for a large profit to either get early retirement or invest in a larger company. Often times they aren't very involved or even interested. I'm not saying this is Spot but the point is everything is a facade. They spend way more in marketing things as fun and exciting than actual product development.

It's extremely rare for someone to have something revolutionary or even just okay then turn around and sell such a product for less than everyone else. These companies send items to "brand ambassadors" then have them post fun Instagram stories for other young professional millennials to get interested in said products. Two cents to the guy that can guess the drink mix brand that every hipster is promoting right now on the interweb. The main ingredient in every product is sugar... but it's not cheap! Money making 101 sell less for more.



Schulze said:


> Plenty of videos on y tube of aluminum frames breaking. Don't you guys watch Pinkbike's Friday Fails?
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with Spot frames.


----------



## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

kpdemello said:


> No kidding. They'd have gotten much better press if they started out by saying they fully intend to warranty the frame, talked about their engineering and qc, and then speculated that it may have been a shock failure rather than blaming the user. My gut reaction was, geeze, never buy carbon from spot because if you have a warranty issue they'll try to screw you.


Why in the world would Spot warranty the frame for Youtube guy?

If they didn't warranty the frame, why would Youtube guy be screwed?


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

fillaroida said:


> Why in the world would Spot warranty the frame for Youtube guy?
> 
> If they didn't warranty the frame, why would Youtube guy be screwed?


I think the bike was a demo. So youtube guy would not be screwed either way.
Any companies official response should be that they are sending out a new frame immediately. They are glad that Alex wasn't hurt and the failure should not have happened form the riding alone. They will investigate the frame to determine why it failed. Demo bike are abused and mistreated as a rule and nothing on the video should have broken that bike.

Shocks have a bottom out bumper in them to absorb energy at bottom out. If a hardtail can take years of abuse, a full suspension bike should be able to take a few bottom outs. I know my personal XC bike have taken much harder hits then on the video and been fine. I always try to tune my shocks so it doesn't happen though.


----------



## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

Supposedly the bicycle he was riding was brand new and not used. Spot brand talked with him on the phone for over an hour after the incident because they were obviously afraid of the very bad press probably trying to convince Alex not to post a video about the product failure. 

Then in the YouTube comments Spot brand bikes blamed Alex for the failure and said that he was incompetent. It’s obvious they are very angry.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Wow.
First ride on a new bike and 1 bottom out brakes the frame off a 3-4 foot drop. Not good. I saw maybe 1 other spot if could have bottomed not hard. You can hear the frame snap and he keeps riding.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

I'll wait for the real facts. Not that the internet facts are unreliable but,


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

alexbn921 said:


> I think the bike was a demo. So youtube guy would not be screwed either way.


Unless they charged him for the wrecked bike.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


----------



## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

alexbn921 said:


> I think the bike was a demo. So youtube guy would not be screwed either way.


Exactly. My questions were rhetorical given that kpdemello was once again posting nonsense.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

04 F2000SL said:


> Then in the YouTube comments Spot brand bikes blamed Alex for the failure and said that he was incompetent. It's obvious they are very angry.


I read that comment and I was absolutely blown away. Instead of simply saying that carbon frames come from some shop in China or Taiwan over which they have no realistic method of determining quality control, the Spot guy comes on there and blames the suspension for the fact that the handlebar and seat tube failed on their frame.

If the frame's structural integrity depends on the suspension being set up correctly, that is simply bad engineering. Sound engineering principles demand building a product that is strong enough to handle any realistic riding scenario. Nothing in that video is outside of the ordinary for the bike he was riding by any stretch of the imagination, suspension setup properly or not.

The Spot guy is angry and shooting off at the mouth and playing defense. He really ought to be more concerned about potential injuries from other bikes he's sold and make sure there isn't a serious problem!


----------



## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

jeremy3220 said:


> I broke a full chromoly bmx frame. Guess everyone should be on adamantium frames.


Yes. I want a bike called Wolverine.


----------



## ripn (Mar 31, 2004)

I bought a Spot Mayhem earlier this year. Have about 300 completely trouble free miles on it so far and love the thing. That said, the video is damn scary. After viewing it, I did a close inspection of the area on my bike and found no visible issues. 

As far as the frame failure, perhaps he didn't set the shock up correctly, or perhaps it was damaged in the crash and that's why the pressure was too low. While its not an issue I've experienced, the reviews of the Mayhem in both Pinkbike and NSMB mentioned easy bottoming with the stock volume spacer at recommended pressure. 

Spots response is a text book example of how NOT to handle issues like this. Blame the customer first? No, just no. The only correct answer is to apologize, own the issue and make it right. Maybe invite the guy to their facility in Colorado and let him film their testing protocols for carbon frames for his YouTube channel? Have a hard time believing companies like Ibis or Santa Cruz would handle something like this in such a poor way. As much as I love my Mayhem this really gives me pause.


----------



## nauc (Sep 9, 2009)

"Wolverine" lol


----------



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

twodownzero said:


> I read that comment and I was absolutely blown away. Instead of simply saying that carbon frames come from some shop in China or Taiwan over which they have no realistic method of determining quality control, the Spot guy comes on there and blames the suspension for the fact that the handlebar and seat tube failed on their frame.
> 
> If the frame's structural integrity depends on the suspension being set up correctly, that is simply bad engineering. Sound engineering principles demand building a product that is strong enough to handle any realistic riding scenario. Nothing in that video is outside of the ordinary for the bike he was riding by any stretch of the imagination, suspension setup properly or not.
> 
> The Spot guy is angry and shooting off at the mouth and playing defense. He really ought to be more concerned about potential injuries from other bikes he's sold and make sure there isn't a serious problem!


This isn't realistic, imo it's entirely wrong.

Applying QC is the name of the game when a brand has a frame built for them by a company they don't own or control. They must send engineers to Taiwan or wherever to make sure they are getting what they paid for, it is their responsibility to ensure they are selling a product made to their specs.

There are no FS bikes in existence that can handle being bottomed out harshly repeatedly. It is NOT bad engineering, it is the way it is... bikes would be much heavier if they could handle this kind of abuse.

The Spot guy has every right to defend his product. If the shock was indeed underinflated, and it was when Spot got the frame back, it's certainly going to lead to a frame failure. This is true of any bike. And it's not necessarily Alex's fault either, shocks can lose air. He did have some warning signs and should have stopped to make sure his ride was ok, but live and learn. This is life on earth, $hit happens...


----------



## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

ripn said:


> Spots response is a text book example of how NOT to handle issues like this. Blame the customer first? No, just no. The only correct answer is to apologize, own the issue and make it right. Maybe invite the guy to their facility in Colorado and let him film their testing protocols for carbon frames for his YouTube channel? Have a hard time believing companies like Ibis or Santa Cruz would handle something like this in such a poor way. As much as I love my Mayhem this really gives me pause.


Looking through the comments, it sounds like Alex, the youtuber, set up his suspension by sag, but somehow ended up 60psi lower than was appropriate. (maybe he did it with the shock locked out, or he's mechanically daft as some of the commenters say, or... who knows. It doesn't matter.) That unsurprisingly lead to a bunch of harsh bottom outs on all the moab huck-to-flats which destroyed the frame, as it would for any frame. Alex talked to Andrew, the owner of Spot, on the phone that evening, where Andrew found out about his suspension set up. Andrew was furious that Alex is giving him bad PR for what he sees as Alex's (who benefits from the drama/views) mistake and writes that unfortunate response on youtube.

If that's how it went down then that really sucks for Spot. Andrew's response is inappropriate, but it's easy to see where he's coming from if that's how it went down. It could have been an opportunity for Spot to talk about how they design a frame, the measures to make it durable, and cash in on Alex's youtube celebrity- he seems like a well-meaning guy, he'd probably do a great interview or something.

I'm inclined to think this whole parade is unfortunate special circumstances and won't judge Spot too harshly.

As i said earlier in this thread, i cracked a frame the same way. Transition warrantied it, no questions, even though i was outside my warranty period. I was totally OK with paying for a crash replacement frame before i found the leaky shock, and especially after i realized my own faulty equipment caused the failure- no fault of theirs at all. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt Transition, you good people.


----------



## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

I don’t sub to STS but I do watch his videos now and then. He’s got enough riding experience to know if he’s bottoming out and it would have happened miles before the incident.


----------



## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

04 F2000SL said:


> I don't sub to STS but I do watch his videos now and then. He's got enough riding experience to know if he's bottoming out and it would have happened miles before the incident.


It did happen miles before the incident. It's there plain as day on the video, he even remarked about it, twice actually, and kept riding both times.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

kpdemello said:


> These vids suggests to me that despite everything I've read suggesting carbon fiber frames are as durable as aluminum, in the real world, carbon durability is still a question.


The great thing about a free market is that you can ride whatever you want. You can ride aluminum. You can ride steel. You can even ride bamboo if that's what floats your boat.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

davec113 said:


> There are no FS bikes in existence that can handle being bottomed out harshly repeatedly. It is NOT bad engineering, it is the way it is... bikes would be much heavier if they could handle this kind of abuse.


I disagree totally.

I would very gladly ride a Giant, Specialized, Cannondale, or Trek with a massively underinflated fork and I can virtually guarantee you that no frame failure would result.

Any properly engineered product includes a safety factor.

Also, I wouldn't give a rat's ass if bikes were heavier. There is entirely too much emphasis on bicycle weight anyway, to the real detriment of consumers.

I hope Mr. "Spot" has a good insurance policy. I wouldn't take one of his bikes if it was given to me.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

scottzg said:


> Looking through the comments, it sounds like Alex, the youtuber, set up his suspension by sag, but somehow ended up 60psi lower than was appropriate. (maybe he did it with the shock locked out, or he's mechanically daft as some of the commenters say, or... who knows. It doesn't matter.) That unsurprisingly lead to a bunch of harsh bottom outs on all the moab huck-to-flats which destroyed the frame, as it would for any frame. Alex talked to Andrew, the owner of Spot, on the phone that evening, where Andrew found out about his suspension set up. Andrew was furious that Alex is giving him bad PR for what he sees as Alex's (who benefits from the drama/views) mistake and writes that unfortunate response on youtube.


"Andrew" is lucky someone wasn't killed or maimed. If we're all just one leaky shrader valve away from our frames exploding under our feet, then we all need some pretty serious cautions in place, including an alarm that goes off if the shock pressure falls below a certain pressure. Or to make bikes out of metal.


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

It doesn't look to me like Alex bottomed that suspension out. The remark he made earlier in the clip was about a sound, not a bottom-out.

Even so, you guys seriously never knocked the sag indicator off the shock on a ride before?

As for material choice, I wouldn't say I'm completely against carbon. I do have some issues with certain properties of it though. As a bike component, a carbon frame is an insanely expensive single part to have potentially written off from a drop against a rock (or in the case of a Spot frame, a bottom-out).


----------



## smithcreek (Nov 27, 2012)

So whose side should I take? On the one hand we have STS, a full-time youtube "celebrity" who uses his incredibly mediocre mountain biking skills, annoying personality and doofus hipster beard to make a living through internet begging, or Spot bikes, a company with a very short history of designing full suspension bikes, carbon bikes, with unknown engineering capabilities, and a demonstrated lack of PR skills? After reading this thread I feel like I should definitely choose one camp or the other, defend my choice and insult those who disagree!


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

smithcreek said:


> So whose side should I take? On the one hand we have STS, a full-time youtube "celebrity" who uses his incredibly mediocre mountain biking skills, annoying personality and doofus hipster beard to make a living through internet begging, or Spot bikes, a company with a very short history of designing full suspension bikes, carbon bikes, with unknown engineering capabilities, and a demonstrated lack of PR skills? After reading this thread I feel like I should definitely choose one camp or the other, defend my choice and insult those who disagree!


Pretty much the whole reason for the internets right there.


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Haha

Regardless of who is right in that particular instance, Spot should've just said nothing. Their reputation has taken a hit now more than if they'd simply remained silent - in which instance people would've, for the most part, just thought "yeah sometimes frames break, it happens".


----------



## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

twodownzero said:


> I disagree totally.
> 
> I would very gladly ride a Giant, Specialized, Cannondale, or Trek with a massively underinflated fork and I can virtually guarantee you that no frame failure would result.
> 
> ...


Well I mean you wouldn't be bottoming out the frame, so...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

twodownzero said:


> I disagree totally.
> 
> I would very gladly ride a Giant, Specialized, Cannondale, or Trek with a massively underinflated fork and I can virtually guarantee you that no frame failure would result.
> 
> ...


"Fork" has nothing to do with this conversation.


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Well after being totally trashed in the youtube comments it looks like Mr. Spot guy posted an apology/clarification and apparently they did agree to warranty the bike:



> Reflecting on my response, yes, I agree that it may have sounded a little too defensive, particularly by word count. Alex has been very positive and friendly to us, as has Steve. We're all on the same page in that we want to find a cause so that bikes are better in the future and rider experience and safety are optimized. Please hear me out as I provide some more context that the readers may not have been aware of...





> -We drove to Chasing Epic on Tuesday and presented Steve with a brand-new bike and picked up the broken bike and are analyzing it. So, regarding warranty, this demonstrated our support of the customer by replacing the bike without question.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Is this the Singletrack Sampler in front of the photo wearing the hat?


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

kpdemello said:


> Well after being totally trashed in the youtube comments it looks like Mr. Spot guy posted an apology/clarification and apparently they did agree to warranty the bike:


That was there yesterday.


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Sorry I was tardy. I just saw it today.

Tough crowd.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

kpdemello said:


> Sorry I was tardy. I just saw it today.
> 
> Tough crowd.


I wasn't giving you a hard time, more just adding to the discussion that it didn't even take Mr. Spot a whole day before he realized that he shot himself in the foot.


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

I guess after reading all those comments, Mr. Spot's defensiveness must be rubbing off on me...


----------



## Blaster182 (Oct 29, 2016)

My 2017 specialized Fatboy!


----------



## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

twodownzero said:


> I wasn't giving you a hard time, more just adding to the discussion that it didn't even take Mr. Spot a whole day before he realized that he shot himself in the foot.


Yeah, a few dozen replies will force some "clarification" (aka backpedaling). It's up to 142 responses as of now. :lol:

Hopefully they'll learn from the damaged frame and the poor excuse for PR.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

smithcreek said:


> So whose side should I take? On the one hand we have STS, a full-time youtube "celebrity" who uses his incredibly mediocre mountain biking skills, annoying personality and doofus hipster beard to make a living through internet begging, or Spot bikes, a company with a very short history of designing full suspension bikes, carbon bikes, with unknown engineering capabilities, and a demonstrated lack of PR skills? After reading this thread I feel like I should definitely choose one camp or the other, defend my choice and insult those who disagree!





phreeky said:


> Haha
> 
> Regardless of who is right in that particular instance, Spot should've just said nothing. Their reputation has taken a hit now more than if they'd simply remained silent - in which instance people would've, for the most part, just thought "yeah sometimes frames break, it happens".





noapathy said:


> Yeah, a few dozen replies will force some "clarification" (aka backpedaling). It's up to 142 responses as of now. :lol:
> 
> Hopefully they'll learn from the damaged frame and the poor excuse for PR.


Sounds like a total cluster all the way around. I hear on the grapevine (from people who have met him/dealt with him in person), that STS guy is high on the douche scale. Treats shop guys rather poorly and makes some ridiculous demands because he's a famous youtuber. I have absolutely no doubt that he's attempting to leverage that here. He's definitely got the "bro" title wrapped up. I don't get the impression that he's particularly mechanically proficient. The comment about "shock pressure set to mfr specifications" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. For me, suspension setup typically takes multiple rides to fine tune things. It's not a once-and-done thing.

SPOT should have kept their mouths shut online. They've been around for long enough to figure out that saying ANYTHING in the comments of a youtube video wouldn't go over well for them.

As to the original question, I'm not afraid of carbon. I've got steel, alu, and carbon all in my bike stable. Multiple frames, handlebars, and rims. One of the carbon bikes was even bought used (Santa Cruz) and has been ridden for many years with no problems. The carbon rims are Chinese (Nextie and Light-Bicycle). The Nexties have thousands of miles on them, many of which are pretty burly/chunky. They're beat on, with many nicks in the paint finish. But are structurally sound. I run my tire pressures high enough to avoid rim strikes. As I do on my alu rims, too. I ride fairly soft/smooth. I've never broken a frame or handlebar. Not saying it'll never happen, but I'm generally not that kind of rider. I don't crash frequently, and when I do crash, it's usually a low speed crash that's not so hard on bikes/parts. I take care of my stuff, too. I keep up on service and I inspect things. ESPECIALLY if a strange noise is involved. If a noise is odd enough that I comment on it, I'm stopping my ride to figure out what it is.

I do know people who ride harder than me and who do break stuff. All materials. If you wreck hard enough, you're going to break lots of stuff. IMO, with bikes being as capable as they are, allowing riders to push their limits even farther, it's going to result in lots of major failures. I started riding near the end of the weight weenie 90's. People broke crap ALL THE TIME. Things got better as manufacturers started building bikes and parts better. Now riders are catching up to that again. High-skill riders and riders who take more risks are going to expose limitations in their equipment.


----------



## The_Trail_Also_Rises (May 2, 2006)

Couldn't agree more.

In 30 years of riding I've seen everything fail - steel, aluminum, carbon. In my experience and observation, carbon has been the least prone to failure but like anything it has its limits and its integrity depends on the manufacturing process, material used and manner in which it is used. Same as aluminum and steel. I don't think anyone is safer by not riding carbon and in some cases (such as handlebars) I think the risk is greater with aluminum than carbon.

If I hear a strange sound while riding, especially after coming off of a jump or landing, then I am definitely stopping and taking some time to look over my bike. I will also usually ride more conservatively after that if I can't determine the source of the sound. This is common sense, IMO. It seems like STS ignored some warning signs before his frame broke.



Harold said:


> Sounds like a total cluster all the way around. I hear on the grapevine (from people who have met him/dealt with him in person), that STS guy is high on the douche scale. Treats shop guys rather poorly and makes some ridiculous demands because he's a famous youtuber. I have absolutely no doubt that he's attempting to leverage that here. He's definitely got the "bro" title wrapped up. I don't get the impression that he's particularly mechanically proficient. The comment about "shock pressure set to mfr specifications" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. For me, suspension setup typically takes multiple rides to fine tune things. It's not a once-and-done thing.
> 
> SPOT should have kept their mouths shut online. They've been around for long enough to figure out that saying ANYTHING in the comments of a youtube video wouldn't go over well for them.
> 
> ...


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

One lesson people who’ve watched the video should be learning is that if you hear a weird noise or if your bike suddenly feels weird then you should stop riding it and look for something broken. Don’t keep sending it off of drops.


----------



## biggazu (Dec 15, 2008)

Giant Reign Advance 2015. Bought the bike in December 2015, but I ripped my ball off the end of my arm, so no riding for 5 months. So 6 months worth of riding I found a crack near top of seat post, pictures are on here somewhere. Reported this, sent pictures to giant. Result it's okay. Stripped the bike 2 years in and found 4 more bigger cracks. One on down tude, then all round the bottom shock mounts. 3 weeks later new frame. Which I sold, and bought a used alloy reign frame instead.


----------



## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Harold said:


> I hear on the grapevine (from people who have met him/dealt with him in person), that STS guy is high on the douche scale. Treats shop guys rather poorly and makes some ridiculous demands because he's a famous youtuber. I have absolutely no doubt that he's attempting to leverage that here. He's definitely got the "bro" title wrapped up.


Hes pretty good at acting then, because there isnt a single video that he has out there that he even remotely leads to being a douche. On his own, or anyone else's for that matter.

I obviously have no skin in this game and dont know any of these "youtubers" personally, but do watch a few of them to pass the little bit of spare time that I do have outside of riding and spending time with my kids.

But, could be!


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I think we're arguing over the wrong thing. Carbon fiber is strong enough to make a car chassis out of. Unless the manufacturer designed the frame to be overly light (or with some other flaw) it should be as strong or stronger than aluminum.


----------



## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

jeremy3220 said:


> I think we're arguing over the wrong thing. Carbon fiber is strong enough to make a car chassis out of. Unless the manufacturer designed the frame to be overly light (or with some other flaw) it should be as strong or stronger than aluminum.


Right on!

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> I think we're arguing over the wrong thing. Carbon fiber is strong enough to make a car chassis out of. Unless the manufacturer designed the frame to be overly light (or with some other flaw) it should be as strong or stronger than aluminum.


As long as you don't let your water bottle touch it. 
Then it's game over.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

R_Pierce said:


> Hes pretty good at acting then, because there isnt a single video that he has out there that he even remotely leads to being a douche. On his own, or anyone else's for that matter.
> 
> I obviously have no skin in this game and dont know any of these "youtubers" personally, but do watch a few of them to pass the little bit of spare time that I do have outside of riding and spending time with my kids.
> 
> But, could be!


IMO, he just comes off as annoying in his vids, which isn't really a major character flaw. Like I said, though, I hear from shop folks he's interacted with that he's different in person.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> As long as you don't let your water bottle touch it.
> Then it's game over.


The resin hardness is lower than alloy but that's a different issue.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Harold said:


> Like I said, though, I hear from shop folks he's interacted with that he's different in person.


There could be other dynamics at play there.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jochribs said:


> There could be other dynamics at play there.


One such story:
http://forums.mtbr.com/north-south-...our-mountain-trails-1068348.html#post13536309

What other dynamics are you thinking about?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> The resin hardness is lower than alloy but that's a different issue.


I would still consider it durability-related.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> I would still consider it durability-related.


Of course it is.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Harold said:


> One such story:
> http://forums.mtbr.com/north-south-...our-mountain-trails-1068348.html#post13536309
> 
> What other dynamics are you thinking about?


The other dynamics that I'm thinking about are when people tend work or think as a group and issues or things said are embellished in order to sound like they are worse than they actually are.

Things that propel this sort of thing are often:

1) Jealousy or feeling threatened or 'less than' comparatively in some way
2) Wanting to fit in with the 'coterie', if you will. 
3) A person being prone to perpetuating rumors/gossip about another person, because they've "heard" this or that about this person, even though they've never met nor dealt with this person themselves, and possibilities 1 and 2 might have been in play in the rumor/gossip that they are perpetuating in the first place.

I'm just throwing this out there. Dude might be a total dick. But I don't know him. And he hasn't been a total dick to me or anyone that I know, so I'll reserve jumping on the bandwagon for when I do meet him in the event that he is a complete dick.


----------



## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

jochribs said:


> The other dynamics that I'm thinking about are when people tend work or think as a group and issues or things said are embellished in order to sound like they are worse than they actually are.
> 
> Things that propel this sort of thing are often:
> 
> ...


My man!!


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

R_Pierce said:


> My man!!


Pots and pans!!


----------



## Mratomix (Oct 13, 2012)

R_Pierce said:


> Hes pretty good at acting then, because there isnt a single video that he has out there that he even remotely leads to being a douche. On his own, or anyone else's for that matter.
> 
> I obviously have no skin in this game and dont know any of these "youtubers" personally, but do watch a few of them to pass the little bit of spare time that I do have outside of riding and spending time with my kids.
> 
> But, could be!


I think people in general are quite quick to certify that other humans are one thing or another, good or bad, douche or chill-ass bro.

I think the three things I'd like to be different about most YouTube channels dedicated to biking:

1) I'm not as much a gear nerd as some people seem to be and I feel like a lot of channels kinda are just capitalizing a lot on ads and make videos more to sell you stuff or experiences than to actually just show how fun mountain biking is. I don't stay up thinking about bike brands and new crap to buy and I think living that way is so weird...I like dreaming of riding trails more than riding toys!

2) This is going to contradict my first point, but whatever, humans are contradictions and often full of air and water and bile...I know I am....Since when did mountain biking become so self-conscious? I find a lot of folks are really about the scene and the look and the feel and it's dumb to me. I look like crap, smell like crap, am covered in crap and have a big smile on my face and scrapes all over my body each ride if it's a good one.

3) Where's my YouTube money?


----------



## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

R_Pierce said:


> Hes pretty good at acting then, because there isnt a single video that he has out there that he even remotely leads to being a douche. On his own, or anyone else's for that matter.


He's a certified douche. Using the videos where he rides wet clay trails after a rain with a huge group of people and then brags that there was 15 crashes (kitsuma) or where he rides past a "no skidding" signs and then attempts a "sweet step-up trail transfer gap jump" that his mediocre skills arent capable of achieving and comes up short each time destroying the bench cut of the trail (Alafia).

Also have heard about his attempts at bike shops to get service comp'ed because of his "celeb status" and he'll drop their name is his next vid. The douche is just a mediocre, broke bum who's trying to hustle through life to not work a real job and ride his bike. I respect the hustle, but don't be a douche.

This whole event is just him dramatizing an event that he directly contributed to in order to make some money. He doesn't care about Spot. Im sure hes happy it happened because it created content. The beginning of the video starts with him stating they are working on suspension set up... AKA bouncing around in the driveway. If he knew anything about Spot frames and their suspension design he would know its got great platform built in, so he probably kept dropping air until it felt "squishy" enough. Do you really think he was searching out the "manufacturers recommendations"? Next through the video he makes several comments about it feeling like he has a flat tire (low suspension pressure or frame is already broken) and it feels like he's riding on sand. But he continues to huck to flat with no inspection, even after commenting about hearing a crack (you can hear it in the video). His entire video is self incrimination.

I feel bad for Spot in this scenario, they got some smart dudes working for them and work with established manufacturers so they are hardly amateurs at this like some are suggesting. Then there's an entire forum of armchair engineers dogging the brand because some douche broke 1 frame. It didn't even break catastrophically as some are suggesting, he kept riding a broken frame until it exploded...what do you expect??

To answer the orginal question, I trust quality carbon. I have broke the last 3 aluminum frames I purchased so I figure carbon can't be any worse. Only caveat is I prefer naked carbon because the manufacturer cant hide any defects/bondo work like they do under paint.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

R_Pierce said:


> Hes pretty good at acting then, because there isnt a single video that he has out there that he even remotely leads to being a douche. On his own, or anyone else's for that matter.
> 
> I obviously have no skin in this game and dont know any of these "youtubers" personally, but do watch a few of them to pass the little bit of spare time that I do have outside of riding and spending time with my kids.
> 
> But, could be!


Yes, there is, and the dude is a monster sized douchebag who attracts other douchebags to ride with him. Why would anybody want to ride with the guy? His whole shtick is obnoxious and stupid, and the fact that he has "followers" is downright disturbing. He's bad for the sport. Period.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> He's a certified douche. Using the videos where he rides wet clay trails after a rain with a huge group of people and then brags that there was 15 crashes (kitsuma) or where he rides past a "no skidding" signs and then attempts a "sweet step-up trail transfer gap jump" that his mediocre skills arent capable of achieving and comes up short each time destroying the bench cut of the trail (Alafia).
> 
> Also have heard about his attempts at bike shops to get service comp'ed because of his "celeb status" and he'll drop their name is his next vid. The douche is just a mediocre, broke bum who's trying to hustle through life to not work a real job and ride his bike. I respect the hustle, but don't be a douche.
> 
> ...


Lol. Nailed it. I didn't even see this until after I responded.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Mratomix said:


> I think people in general are quite quick to certify that other humans are one thing or another, good or bad, douche or chill-ass bro.


Most people seem to do a pretty good job of projecting their vibe to the people they interact with. This is especially so if you are popular in some way.



> I think the three things I'd like to be different about most YouTube channels dedicated to biking:
> 
> 1) I'm not as much a gear nerd as some people seem to be and I feel like a lot of channels kinda are just capitalizing a lot on ads and make videos more to sell you stuff or experiences than to actually just show how fun mountain biking is. I don't stay up thinking about bike brands and new crap to buy and I think living that way is so weird...I like dreaming of riding trails more than riding toys!


Well, continue to be disappointed. I don't often watch riding vids on youtube or elsewhere. The good quality ones mostly have some level of corporate support behind them. The truly professional videos are a joy to watch, sure. I don't really enjoy watching much of anything else, though. Youtube "stars" like STS and others are a step above amateurs in their vid production, but it's still not as beautifully done as professionally produced content. And it's absolutely got corporate backing. So of course there's going to be some level of advertising for the brands who sponsor that channel. The raw amateur stuff is really hard to watch, honestly. I can't really even watch my own crappy riding vids I made in the past.



> 2) This is going to contradict my first point, but whatever, humans are contradictions and often full of air and water and bile...I know I am....Since when did mountain biking become so self-conscious? I find a lot of folks are really about the scene and the look and the feel and it's dumb to me. I look like crap, smell like crap, am covered in crap and have a big smile on my face and scrapes all over my body each ride if it's a good one.


People have always been self-conscious and they always will be. That can actually be a good thing in some respects, if it forces a degree of introspection that drives us to be better people. Personally, I've been in the service industry, particularly in a shop. I really try hard to be cool to shop staff and most of the time they don't let me down. If they turn around and do something cool for me (I never ask for it like a pretentious prick), I'm gracious about it. As for how self-consciousness relates to this discussion, youtube "stars" like STS and others are in the business of marketing themselves to make money. It's their job to carefully curate an image that sells. Some do a better job of it than others. So being self-conscious is a requirement of the job. First and foremost, crafting your content such that you find viewers/subscribers. What comes after that is what we're talking about now. With the higher profile you've created for yourself, you open yourself to criticism for your behavior. If you've got the right kind of self-consciousness, you'll see this and make adjustments. If not, then...

This whole youtube "star" business is rather a bit like a low rent version of Hollywood. You don't make enough money to hire an agent to manage your image. You've gotta handle all that yourself. Maybe you'll get lucky and get popular enough to pick up a more traditional gig and wind up making enough money to pay other people to handle the other stuff for you. But it's all same-same, really. The people who just have fun riding largely don't make videos of their riding. And if they do, they're typically not very good ones. Ride with a GoPro sometime and try to capture the fun of your rides. It's really not easy. I found that trying wound up detracting from my rides.



> 3) Where's my YouTube money?


The same place as your youtube subscribers.


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

mbmb65 said:


> He's bad for the sport. Period.


Is mountain biking a sport? Or just an athletic activity?

Discuss.

P.S. I agree that STS is a really mediocre rider and that his beard looks stupid.


----------



## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

STS is a alcoholic. He went through all the steps to become a school teacher then quit. He’s going to be paying off student loans for a long time when he could have just been drinking and biking the whole time. I’ve seen this situation plenty of times and many college friends became alcoholics. I used to think drinking responsibly was a good thing but the fact is plenty of people can’t drink responsibly and are still shotgunning beers at nearly 40 years old. School was out a long time ago...

This whole mtb and beer marketing crap is just making the situation worse IMO. I don’t understand how people think fitness and alcohol go together.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

kpdemello said:


> Is mountain biking a sport? Or just an athletic activity?
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> P.S. I agree that STS is a really mediocre rider and that his beard looks stupid.


LOL. Don't disrespect the beard! :madmax:


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

04 F2000SL said:


> STS is a alcoholic. He went through all the steps to become a school teacher then quit. He's going to be paying off student loans for a long time when he could have just been drinking and biking the whole time. I've seen this situation plenty of times and many college friends became alcoholics. I used to think drinking responsibly was a good thing but the fact is plenty of people can't drink responsibly and are still shotgunning beers at nearly 40 years old. School was out a long time ago...
> 
> This whole mtb and beer marketing crap is just making the situation worse IMO. I don't understand how people think fitness and alcohol go together.


Why is this subject for conversation??

That's no one's business, quite frankly. Certainly not cool to be spreading on a forum.

Man, gossip like wild fire...


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

04 F2000SL said:


> STS is a alcoholic. He went through all the steps to become a school teacher then quit. He's going to be paying off student loans for a long time when he could have just been drinking and biking the whole time. I've seen this situation plenty of times and many college friends became alcoholics. I used to think drinking responsibly was a good thing but the fact is plenty of people can't drink responsibly and are still shotgunning beers at nearly 40 years old. School was out a long time ago...
> 
> This whole mtb and beer marketing crap is just making the situation worse IMO. I don't understand how people think fitness and alcohol go together.


Unless you can back up these claims they are probably best left out of public viewing, just sayin. I'll remove my post if you remove yours.


----------



## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

I break frames from pedaling forces - always around the bottom bracket region. 

I've broken 4 steel frames, 3 aluminum, and zero carbon.

Steel is the worst frame material, right?


----------



## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

It's not about his beard.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

You guys are nuts. STS never even bad mouth Spot and you guys are going on rants about him being an alcoholic douche.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

jeremy3220 said:


> You guys are nuts. STS never even bad mouth Spot and you guys are going on rants about him being an alcoholic douche.


No, us "guys" did not, so please don't lump us "guys" together.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> No, us "guys" did not, so please don't lump us "guys" together.


I thought people would be able to parse out my statement and figure out who it applied to.


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

04 F2000SL said:


> STS is a alcoholic. He went through all the steps to become a school teacher then quit. He's going to be paying off student loans for a long time when he could have just been drinking and biking the whole time. I've seen this situation plenty of times and many college friends became alcoholics. I used to think drinking responsibly was a good thing but the fact is plenty of people can't drink responsibly and are still shotgunning beers at nearly 40 years old. School was out a long time ago...
> 
> This whole mtb and beer marketing crap is just making the situation worse IMO. I don't understand how people think fitness and alcohol go together.


Wow who invited the fun police? On behalf of all those who enjoy a finely crafted beverage after a long, hard day of pedaling, go suck on a lemon. Maybe your talents are better urilized checking people's grammar on some political internet forum.

As for STS's job choice, sounds like a lot of people are just jealous. Kid's not hurting anyone, so why do you care how he supports himself? Because he thought of it before you?


----------



## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

No I’m glad he’s living life the way he wants to but promoting alcohol as fun is stupid. Anyone that’s been to college knows a good percentage take the drinking and partying way too far. Two of my good friends are still stuck in that phase and it’s been 10 years now since class was over. 

Not to get on a soap box but alcohol isn’t any different than any other drug. Nearly everyone knows an alcoholic or a dui death victim. /rant off


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

But alcohol IS fun (if you use it responsibly).


----------



## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

For some it's impossible. Doomed from the start. Hell native Americans are a great example, just watch Alaska state troopers.

I can drink responsibly as can my entire family but for others... I used to think alcoholism wasn't even real that it was a choice but after seeing my friends who I grew up with that never drank until college I learned the truth.

Enough about alcohol let's talk crap about the Walmart carbon fiber Hyper bike that's only 400 dollars!







kpdemello said:


> But alcohol IS fun (if you use it responsibly).


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> LOL. Don't disrespect the beard! :madmax:


Beards ARE stupid. Trust me, I've got one and I hate it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

mbmb65 said:


> Beards ARE stupid. Trust me, I've got one and I hate it.


lol, when I first saw this I thought it said "*bears *are stupid."


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

mbmb65 said:


> Beards ARE stupid. Trust me, I've got one and I hate it.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


good for covering up the scars from all the crashes

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

the one ring said:


> lol, when I first saw this I thought it said "*bears *are stupid."


Bears are cool. Bears with beards are stupid.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

andytiedye said:


> good for covering up the scars from all the crashes
> 
> Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


 But, I thought scars were cool, and chicks dig them? No?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

mbmb65 said:


> But, I thought scars were cool, and chicks dig them? No?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think you're confusing that with tattoos that look like scars. Head to toe.


----------



## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

the one ring said:


> lol, when I first saw this I thought it said "*bears *are stupid."


Opinion: Bears are cool, but beers are more cool. Opinion


----------



## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

This thread very informaitve.

Carbon is bad because of shitty laminate
Beard are stupid but hide scars
Alcohol makes you an a$$hole
and chicks did tattoos

Did I get it all?


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

bankerboy said:


> This thread very informaitve.
> 
> Carbon is bad because of shitty laminate
> Beard are stupid but hide scars
> ...


Not really.

STS is bad because of shitty
Beard are gay
Being an a§§hole makes you an a§§hole
Chicks have done tattoos but not always

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

mbmb65 said:


> Not really.
> 
> STS is bad because of shitty
> Beard are gay
> ...


Where do we stand on bears with tattoos AND beards?


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Haggis said:


> Where do we stand on bears with tattoos AND beards?


Still stupid. Maybe a little extra.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------

