# PSA: Cheap 20" and 24" Tubeless rim and what 28H disc hubs and spokes to use?



## stevelim (Jul 23, 2008)

*PSA: Cheap 20" and 24" Tubeless rim and what 28H disc hubs and spokes to use?*

Just bought Alienation Malice 20" rims from Dans Comp. Pretty sure these are the only tubeless compatible 20" rims around. Double wall, 325 grams, 28.5 mm wide, 28 hole, drilled for Presta. Not a lot of info out there but at $19.95 each I'm willing to take that risk!

On to my question: any suggestions for lightweight 28H disc (preferably 6 bolt) hubs? I've seen some builds with Circus Monkey and Novatec but some of the long term reviews don't seem great.

Also any lightweight spoke recommendations? Was planning on Wheelsmith DB 14 but open to other suggestions

EDIT: They have 24" 28H versions for the same price


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

I went with Bitex hubs for my son's wheel build. They really light and came recommended from my builder.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Thanks, I snagged a pair of the 24" version for my daughter's build. I think the novatec and others will be fine with kids, I suspect the main problem is inadequate bearings for heavier adults...


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

Dang, can't find them now...you got a direct link?

edit: found them

https://www.danscomp.com/products/424064/Alienation_Malice_TCS_24_Rim.html


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

Stupid question, these are rim brake compatible, yes? I assume so being BMX style and all


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

My Alienation rims showed up today, I also snagged a set of the Novatec 28h black hubs for about $85 on eBay and once those arrive on the slow boat from china will confirm measurements and order spokes. 
The rims seem like decent width and overall good quality for the price. Looking forward to the finished product... I should have them built up by Spring at this rate!


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## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

skyways can be setup tubeless also.


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## Ausable (Jan 7, 2006)

Islabikes specs Stan's Crest rims on their 20'' and 24'' Pro Series but I think they are a special run not available aftermarket.


Say goodbye to inner tubes

Nothing contributes more to the ride feel of a bike more than the wheel set. Stan’s No-Tubes Crest 20″, 20 hole rim laced to Islabikes super lightweight aluminum hubs result in a very light, smooth rolling wheel.

We worked in partnership with Stan’s No-Tubes to spec a lightweight, tubeless ready rim for the Beinn 20 Pro Series. For the first time the well-established Crest rim is available in a 20″ diameter, allowing us to bring lightweight, tubeless-ready technology to younger riders. Tubeless offers lower weight and the ability to run lower pressures with reduced puncture risk for increased grip and ride comfort.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

My Novatecs arrived from China today, wow that was fast! Now to measure these suckers up and get some spokes...


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

All in all the rims are the cheapest part ... and the part that adds the highest torque in rotating weight... 

By the time you pay for spokes and hubs it seems like false economy to go for cheap rims.


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

backinmysaddle said:


> My Novatecs arrived from China today, wow that was fast! Now to measure these suckers up and get some spokes...


Which model novatecs did you get?


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

This is how people end up with $3k full suspension bikes for their 5 year olds. Not sure about your math or the suggestion that there is some huge tradeoff as opposed to a really good deal...
Rims: Stans Crest 24 $85 each (310g) vs Malice 24 $19 (325g)
hubs: $80
spokes+nipples $1.50x56= $80

So I am building a pair of wheels for $200 that I think are pretty darn good compared to stock options, and using Stans would add $130, a significant premium. So $330 vs $200? That's a pretty big price difference for 15g of weight per rim. False economy? not the slightest bit in my mind.



Steve-XtC said:


> All in all the rims are the cheapest part ... and the part that adds the highest torque in rotating weight...
> 
> By the time you pay for spokes and hubs it seems like false economy to go for cheap rims.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

6_Myles said:


> Which model novatecs did you get?


I bought the D771SB/D772SB set. I found it advertised on ebay in GBP (GBP72.50 to be exact) and used that to get a cheaper price through more advantageous currency (paying in USD it was only $88).


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

sweet, me too. would you mind posting up your spoke calcs so i can double check mine when they get here tomorrow, i hope. it will be my first time ordering spokes, so I'd like confirmation.


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## stevelim (Jul 23, 2008)

Which ebay seller did you use for the Novatec hubs?


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

NOVATEC D771SB/D772SB hub Upgraded for D711SB/D712SB 6 bolt Disc MTB bike hub | eBay

They were $87 when I ordered though.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

I bought from seller onlycarbonwheel
It was a few $$ cheaper, like $88. Shipping took 10 days from order.


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## stevelim (Jul 23, 2008)

Also curious as to whether people are lacing 2x to improve spoke entry angle? I haven't built a wheel this small before


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

according to alienation, this rim was designed around 3x spoke angle


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

backinmysaddle said:


> This is how people end up with $3k full suspension bikes for their 5 year olds. Not sure about your math or the suggestion that there is some huge tradeoff as opposed to a really good deal...
> Rims: Stans Crest 24 $85 each (310g) vs Malice 24 $19 (325g)
> hubs: $80
> spokes+nipples $1.50x56= $80
> ...


But then you add tires so closer to 430 to 300 ... Stans go tubeless super easy ... so it depends how bad the stock wheels are ...

Mine (well kids) ended up at 1106g for both (rims, spokes and hubs) with 32h then saved about 1000g on tires/tubes over stock (and the tires actually work off-road as a bonus)

But it's all relative. The Cheapest 300g saving has to be tubes .... some tape and sealant ... then tires ... I just think the with the price of tires, rims, spokes and hubs the $100 would be better spent on tires... if the $100 is the issue but it's all relative

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

You totally lost me here. The alienation malice rims are tubeless ready. I took them out and examined them closely, they have a nice build, including angled nipple seats to reduce spoke angle on the smaller diameter 24" rim. I dare say there is nothing separating these from Stans except 1mm of internal width, 15gr and $65 per rim. Maybe I change my mind after building them up, but I can't imagine why I would buy stans for $130 more.



Steve-XtC said:


> But then you add tires so closer to 430 to 300 ... Stans go tubeless super easy ... so it depends how bad the stock wheels are ...
> 
> Mine (well kids) ended up at 1106g for both (rims, spokes and hubs) with 32h then saved about 1000g on tires/tubes over stock (and the tires actually work off-road as a bonus)
> 
> ...


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

backinmysaddle said:


> You totally lost me here.


If you just want to save weight for the best $/g then just going tubeless is cheapest (especially on 24 as there isn't much in light tubes for 24")... some tape and sealant. Then you can save on tires... but if your motivation comes from needing disk/cassette its different.



> Maybe I change my mind after building them up


That's part of my logic .... once you got spokes and built them though if the rim diameter is the same you can always change your mind, if not then its an extra set of spokes as well.

I had some Z1000's spare which were bit heavier than the Stans ... (don't remember exactly) but if they didn't turn out it would have meant buying the Stans AND an extra set of spokes ...

My build was also a bit biased as I had a limited time to order CX-Ray for GB £0.99. I wouldn't have paid full price.

As I say, its all relative.


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

@backinmysaddle, did you get your measurements yet? Just wanting to double check mine before ordering spokes.


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

my calc's


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

update on this: Built them up last night and everything worked out great...nice set of wheels


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## obikeo (Jun 22, 2016)

6_Myles said:


> update on this: Built them up last night and everything worked out great...nice set of wheels


Hey 6_Myles - How are the wheels holding up? Running tubeless?

I am considering building a set just like these for my daughter. Will be my first wheel build but i'm up for a challenge. 
The one thing i am worried about is spoke length. Is it possible to order the spokes in the correct length so i don't have to worry about cutting them?


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Thanks 6_Myles for posting the calculations, I still havent been able to get around to ordering the spokes and nipples for mine to built them up. Moved on to other things this winter! Where did you buy the spokes/nipples? I have no idea if there is even price competition on those things...


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

delete


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

obikeo said:


> Hey 6_Myles - How are the wheels holding up? Running tubeless?
> 
> I am considering building a set just like these for my daughter. Will be my first wheel build but i'm up for a challenge.
> The one thing i am worried about is spoke length. Is it possible to order the spokes in the correct length so i don't have to worry about cutting them?


They are doing great. Had to do a small amount of truing after the initial ride but doing great. I will switch them to tubeless over the summer when we are all riding a bit more frequently.

You definitely do not want to be cutting your spokes, using the spoke calculator is key.


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## 6_Myles (Sep 8, 2012)

backinmysaddle said:


> Thanks 6_Myles for posting the calculations, I still havent been able to get around to ordering the spokes and nipples for mine to built them up. Moved on to other things this winter! Where did you buy the spokes/nipples? I have no idea if there is even price competition on those things...


I got mine at Wheelbuilder.com - Handcrafted Precision Custom Bicycle Race Wheels


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

6_Myles said:


> I got mine at Wheelbuilder.com - Handcrafted Precision Custom Bicycle Race Wheels


Thanks, total novice at picking out spokes here! I've always just ordered kits in the past when I built up or re-used spokes with identical rim/hub. So I just take the number the calculator spits out (same as yours since I have same gear) and order that sized spoke? I see you have some non whole numbers, do I round up? Thanks


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## obikeo (Jun 22, 2016)

Edit - Sorry, see that the 771/772 are the ones you got. Ordered. Thanks

Thanks 6_Myles. Will definitely order proper length spokes.

Any thoughts/comments on the Novatec 771/772? Seem to be a replacement for 711/712 that can be converted from QR to thru-axel. The reason I ask is they can be had for $70 shipped on ebay right now.


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## obikeo (Jun 22, 2016)

backinmysaddle said:


> Thanks, total novice at picking out spokes here! I've always just ordered kits in the past when I built up or re-used spokes with identical rim/hub. So I just take the number the calculator spits out (same as yours since I have same gear) and order that sized spoke? I see you have some non whole numbers, do I round up? Thanks


I was wondering the same thing about rounding. I also thought at first to round up, but decided to do some research before pulling the trigger. It seems (and makes sense now) that it is actually better to round down. This way you won't run out of thread before tension. Also seems the consensus is that 1 or 2 mm either way is usually okay.

6_Myles - Would be great to hear your feedback considering you actually built a set with these parts. Thanks!


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

6_Myles
Also, assuming you used 12mm nipples, but just want to check... I want to make just one trip to the virtual store ;-)


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

Grats on the wheel building.

I built two sets of wheels, one for each kid in 24 inch. I used Answer Alumilite front rims in 28 hole for my daughter and luckily found some rare Rhyno Lite 32h for my son's. And for the rest I got everything from bikehubstore. I ended up using SLX hubs for my son's instead of the bikehubstore hubs.

Answer Alumilite Expert Rim-Front-28H-24x1.50" at J&R Bicycles


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Not cheap, exactly... But if I needed to build another 20" wheeled bike, I'd use Velocity Cliffhangers and BHS hubs. My son is twelve now but when he was five, I built him a Gary Fisher Precaliber and used Velocity Aeroheats laced to an old XT hub and an old Sun Ringle Bubba front hub. 
I didn't run them tubeless, never even tried. 
Now, I ride a Dahon with 20" wheels to work. The stock wheels were trash so I built Cliffhangers with a Bike Hub Store rear hub and a Phil Wood front hub because it had to be 74mm wide. 
I set the tires up tubeless and they did seal up and hold air perfectly but the Schwalbe Marathon tires I run on that bike need to have like 55 psi and the Stan's couldn't hold punctures at that pressure so I went back to tubes but a higher volume off road tire should be fine. 
I wish they made the Cliffhangers in 24". I'd get a 24" wheeled folding bike.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Just built the front up this evening, an easy rim and hub combo, worked well. I would do the rear as well but my local shop only included 28 nipples in the build kit they made up for me ;-)


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Crap- just noticed that these rims have a hole for a presta valve in one location and one for a shraeder valve in another location. I'm going to run these tubeless, so assume I need a plug of some sort for the larger hole? What are my options? I could probably fashion a plug with some hi grade black silicone caulk...


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## obikeo (Jun 22, 2016)

backinmysaddle said:


> Crap- just noticed that these rims have a hole for a presta valve in one location and one for a shraeder valve in another location. I'm going to run these tubeless, so assume I need a plug of some sort for the larger hole? What are my options? I could probably fashion a plug with some hi grade black silicone caulk...


Still waiting for my rims to show up but according to the website maybe they should have come with plugs??? See pic in link.

http://www.alienationbmx.com/portfolio/malice

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

obikeo said:


> according to the website maybe they should have come with plugs??? See pic in link.
> 
> Alienation Bicycle Components » TCS Malice


Damn- mine did not appear to come with these... I think I'll make a silicone plug and see if that works..


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## obikeo (Jun 22, 2016)

backinmysaddle said:


> Damn- mine did not appear to come with these... I think I'll make a silicone plug and see if that works..


My rims arrived today and I didn't get any plugs either. 
I did some more looking and found they are called veloplugs and are used instead of rim tape (for non-tubelesee). Unfortunately they come in bags of 70+ for like $15. I only need two. Might call Dan's comp to see if they'll send me a couple as according to the alienation website they should have been supplied with the rims. Or i'll just suck it up and buy a bag.


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## obikeo (Jun 22, 2016)

Oh yeah, here is a link to the plugs on ebay.

Velocity Veloplugs Rim Plugs (72/Bag) 8.5mm | eBay


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## obikeo (Jun 22, 2016)

Built up the wheels. Had a few moments of thinking the spoke were too short but in the end they turned out well. I just dropped them at the LBS for a final truing. Got them pretty close using the bike and zip ties but figured it best to get them perfect.









I'll be starting a new thread soon with the full build. Spoiler alert.... I'm way over budget.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## eric0919 (May 19, 2008)

Dan's appears to be out of the 20" Any other sources that aren't $65?


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## obikeo (Jun 22, 2016)

I tried installing the Rocket Rons tubeless last night with not much luck. 

I don't have much experience, but the only other time I did tubeless it was super quick and easy. Everything sealed up quickly and never leaked. 

I was expecting the same with this setup but no such luck. It seems that the bead on the tire is just not strong enough. The bead sets fine and pops right into place, but it won't hold pressure of more than 12 to 14 psi and eventually all the air leaks out slowly. I'm going to try the other one tonight and double tape it to hopefully make a tighter and stronger seal.

Also, I was under the impression the Rocket Rons were Tubless ready tires, but that's not the case. According to the Schwalbe website the performance line tires are NOT recommended for tubeless because the sidewalls are not strong enough.


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

obikeo said:


> I tried installing the Rocket Rons tubeless last night with not much luck.
> 
> I don't have much experience, but the only other time I did tubeless it was super quick and easy. Everything sealed up quickly and never leaked.
> 
> I was expecting the same with this setup but no such luck. It seems that the bead on the tire is just not strong enough. The bead sets fine and pops right into place, but it won't hold pressure of more than 12 to 14 psi and eventually all the air leaks out slowly. I'm going to try the other one tonight and double tape it to hopefully make a tighter and stronger seal.


Rocket Rons *on Stans Rims* are beyond easy .... I had a whole load of contingencies but first time they went on with a track pump without even removing the valve cores..(I didn't even need soapy water or to pump like mad). I did stick a tube in overnight though....



> Also, I was under the impression the Rocket Rons were Tubless ready tires, but that's not the case. According to the Schwalbe website the performance line tires are NOT recommended for tubeless because the sidewalls are not strong enough.


This is apparently the case except my experience is they work fine.
I've actually got some racing ralph's cheapo line in my XC bike and they worked fine though they took a bit extra sealant and shaking compared to the snakeskin hans damf on my trail bike...

The kids rocket rons also worked great but again needed a bit more sealant and shaking about....

Touch wood neither has ever punctured! (AGGH am I cursing myself)
I'd say the 27.5 Ralph's with my weight might benefit from a stronger sidewall but the Rockets with a kids weight seem fine and we run the front down to 15 psi or so...


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

and reason for posting back on this thread...
The Novatec D711/712's are a year old... no sign of problems from kid power levels and they have been regularly soaked in mud (indeed ridden through mud higher than the hub) and washed with a high pressure (but not power) hose


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## obikeo (Jun 22, 2016)

I was finally able to get them sealed up. Ended up using two layers of 1'' gorilla tape. Bead feels much stronger now.


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