# 'Corduroy road' a stream crossing?



## ForrestJones (May 25, 2009)

The problem: A year-round mud hole on a trail used by bikes (well me anyway), hikers/hunters (very few), and ATV's (illegally). Its a small stream crossing and the trail bed has depressed, making a pond. There's a few nice rocks but its mostly mud, I can't pedal through without bogging down, followed by a wet shoe exit. With cursing.

A solution?: On another trail in the area I see where the builders put in a corduroy section that has been there for a long time (I estimate 25 years at least). Still works very well so I want to copy that idea. Some trees fell across the trail very close by. The best one is a hemlock about 18" diameter at the butt and is very solid. There is also a red maple, some of that was solid too. I cleared them and bucked the logs into sections about 2.5 ft each.

So the question- I tried this last year in another spot (not a stream crossing, just a low spot) and when it rains heavily, like now, the logs all floated out of position. I had anticipated that and had dug a shallow trench for each log, didn't help. That tree was a dead spruce and was very light. Maybe the denser hemlock and maple would be better? 

Is there a good technique to keep them in place? I'd prefer to use rocks but there aren't many around. There are 2 nice ones but I need more than 10 times that to do the job.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

The trick to getting corduroy right where it's exposed to water is having 7 foot logs where you need 2.5 foot, and digging the ends in, then burying them. The ground over top of them holds them in.

Rock will always be better if you can find enough of it. Maybe you need to expand the area you're searching for rocks. Some of the rock work I've done on trails I've had to move fairly large rocks over 1/4 mile to get them where I needed them.


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## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

US Forestry Service Trail Construction and Maintenance Notebook advises against corduroy road construction:

https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm07232806/page10.htm



> Corduroy is notorious for decaying quickly and consuming large amounts of material. It should be used only as a temporary measure and is not recommended for new construction. The use of corduroy may indicate that your trail has been poorly sited.


Cyclists that can't negotiate muddy, slippery logs will ride or walk around it, widening and braiding the trail and increasing erosion. ATV traffic will accelerate the decay process. Once the logs rot, (and they will rot; it's just a question of time) they will add to the organic material present, trapping more water, making the area even more of a mudhole.

The preferred solution is to reroute to higher, better draining ground.

If that's not an option, then a bridge.

If that's not an option, then better rock armouring.

Corduroy roads should be your last option.

Take a look at the manual I linked to above. It has diagrams for solutions to water issues, including corduroy road construction.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

ray.vermette said:


> US Forestry Service Trail Construction and Maintenance Notebook advises against corduroy road construction:
> 
> https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm07232806/page10.htm
> 
> ...


I've seen a couple of terrible crashes on corduroy. In this particular instance, the material they placed on top of the corduroy, a fine clay, was great when dry. When wet, it was like riding on grease. It was made worse by the fact that the logs placed underneath had a very fine bark to them, so there was no traction to be had at all.

The worst part was that the logs used as a "railing" on each side, to keep the clay in, (very) effectively trapped water that might have otherwise run off.


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## ForrestJones (May 25, 2009)

Thanks all for the input. It sounds like the corduroy isn't the best plan...for one thing I've already cut the logs too short to give them a proper burial at the trail edges to hold them in place. For another this spot is on a curve in the trail so wet logs would likely be a no-traction mess of wipe outs. I hadn't thought of that-other places I've ridden over corduroy were straight. I was thinking this could be the easiest way since the material is abundant and close by, but I might go back to the tried and true method of rock armoring. There are more rocks around I'm sure, often just under the duff layer.

The next time I pass through I will assess the site again, maybe a short bypass/reroute would work too as this stream is quite small upstream and down from the crossing (you can hop across it), so a bridge wouldn't have to be very long. The only reason the mud hole is so extensive is the trail.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

The other nice thing about a bridge, if you make one that's only 18" or so wide, it can easily be restricted to foot traffic, because the ATV's likely won't try to cross it. That will make your re-route stay cleaner.


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## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

ForrestJones said:


> Thanks all for the input. It sounds like the corduroy isn't the best plan...


That did not go the way I thought it would go.

Usually, someone posts in this forum saying they want to fix a problem by doing "X".

A few people reply, saying "X" is not a good idea, do "Y" instead.

The OP replies back that they don't fully understand his situation, and he's going to go ahead and do "X" anyway against all recommendations.

I'm giving you an up rep for being open minded!  :thumbsup:

Cheers!


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## ForrestJones (May 25, 2009)

Cotharyus said:


> The other nice thing about a bridge, if you make one that's only 18" or so wide, it can easily be restricted to foot traffic, because the ATV's likely won't try to cross it. That will make your re-route stay cleaner.


Agreed. This has worked on another trail in the same area. A dirt biker rode across my bridges at least once, causing no damage. An ATV would be another story.

Btw I 'dig' Trail Cast, keep them coming.


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## ForrestJones (May 25, 2009)

ray.vermette said:


> That did not go the way I thought it would go.
> 
> Usually, someone posts in this forum saying they want to fix a problem by doing "X".
> 
> ...


Thanks Ray. 
I've got bad news for you though, I'm going back to the corduroy idea, against all recommendations. I will also fill in the gaps between the logs with sawdust, coffee grounds, whatever is in the compost, old barbed wire, and rusty nails. That should stick everything together nicely! If it doesn't, there's always dynamite and start over, lol.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

ForrestJones said:


> Agreed. This has worked on another trail in the same area. A dirt biker rode across my bridges at least once, causing no damage. An ATV would be another story.
> 
> Btw I 'dig' Trail Cast, keep them coming.


Thanks. They're slow coming along compared to some other shows, but I've got another one in the works. As it will reveal, I've been very, very busy.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

New England rider here, rock armoring, done right lasts and is maintenance free. Just need rocks, no shortage here. Think trash can lid size, big and flatish. Space them apart if needed to allow water to go around the gaps. Got a wheelbarrow to move stuff?


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

If ATVs can get in there, they could haul some nice big rocks.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

Corduroy isn't ideal but theres a time and place for everything. We have used it for short sections of trail where absolutely no rock was available, boardwalk bridging wasn't financially-possible, the land is perfectly level, and so no reroute would help. We have a lot of large storm fallen red cedar that we cut into 2.5' lengths, dug into the wet ground, and which have held tight. It's dense purple-red heart wood that won't rot anytime soon.
I've also seen black locust used as well in a pinch. That stuff doesn't rot either. As long as you don't get rushing water through the area, corduroy can stay put.


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## ForrestJones (May 25, 2009)

leeboh said:


> New England rider here, rock armoring, done right lasts and is maintenance free. Just need rocks, no shortage here. Think trash can lid size, big and flatish. Space them apart if needed to allow water to go around the gaps. Got a wheelbarrow to move stuff?


Wheelbarrow would be good, especially if I could leave it on site for a while. Hmm, maybe a garage sale wheelbarrow. Getting it there would take some doing.

I have used a steel cable to drag rocks, it works reasonably well. If the rock is close to the site I have used a come-along for big ones.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Add another vote against corduroy for this application. Being that this is a stream crossing (i.e. moving water) and not just a low lying wet area, if you place corduroy across the stream channel, you will restrict flow and back up water making your drainage problem even worse. 

That, and if you get intense rainfall events, the corduroy may also wash out. You're probably better off elevating your tread on the approaches to the stream crossing without blocking flow, and bridging across the stream channel itself.

As always in these threads, a picture of your location would be worth a 1,000 posts trying to describe it.


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## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

ForrestJones said:


> I have used a steel cable to drag rocks, it works reasonably well. If the rock is close to the site I have used a come-along for big ones.


Use one of these:

Rope Pullers - Maasdam

Come-alongs generally have short cables. The rope puller comes in lengths up to 100 feet. I find 20 feet is good enough most of the time.

3/4 ton capacity of the rope puller is plenty; especially if the rock is placed on top of log rollers. I have moved some truly massive boulders with the rope puller.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I keep a rope puller in my car year round.

I've used it to pull cars out of ditches on snow covered roads, haul logs, etc.

Another thing to consider, if your trails are near a road, is hooking up a rope/pulley system to your car. Less acute angles are better; the generate less friction from the rope/pulley.

We've used an elevated cable, and pulley, to move large rocks and logs up slopes as well. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Maday (Aug 21, 2008)

If it is worth doing it is worth doing right...


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## ForrestJones (May 25, 2009)

Hmmm...it seems like when I bought the come-along I should have gone with a rope puller instead, for the reason Ray mentioned. For instance last winter I used the come-along to move a log onto a trail to make a skinny bridge. It worked fine but I had to stop and re-set my anchor once due to the limited cable length. That's another project that needs to be finished.

I think I know what I needed to complete this one, thanks all. I started it during a slow work season, now I don't have much time for it so its going on the back burner.


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## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

ForrestJones said:


> ...I had to stop and re-set my anchor once due to the limited cable length...


That's the shortcoming of come-alongs with often short cable lengths: if you are moving anything a decent distance, you need to stop and reset the anchor point repeatedly, which takes a lot of time. Also, it's rare that you find an anchor point that is exactly the full distance of the come-along cable in exactly the right direction, so you pick a closer anchor point. By the time you do that and you wind up the slack in the cable, you only have a few feet of cable left to use, and then you need to stop and re-set again.

The rope puller is only limited by the length of the rope and strength of you and the device. If you have 200 feet of rope in the puller and you can pull it, then you can pull from 200 feet away and not reset once. But I have found the 20 foot rope version to be good enough most of the time. If a rock is more than 20 feet from where I need it, I find another rock. I initially bought the 100 foot version, but found it was too much rope and the excess rope just kept getting in the way.


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## endo_alley (May 28, 2013)

We , if the land manager allows it, use PVC or galvanized steel culvert pipe (24", side by side if necessary) to allow water flow. And build a turnpike over it. Or in many cases a bridge might be the best answer. We move reasonably large rocks with some home made rock carriers. Usually two 8' pieces of steel tubing with some kind of webbing between them. Semi truck sized tire chains slightly re-worked to allow the tubing to connect to them seem to last a long time in the field. With six people lifting you can pick up a 300lb to 600lb boulder and move it a good distance.


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## endo_alley (May 28, 2013)

Used steel well casings make better culverts than corrugated CMP for trail and greenway drainage water crossing, railtrail corridor study, recreation path system, linear National state park, develop process public input, adjacent landowner, state fed


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