# Araya RM-20s



## hegstad1 (Sep 16, 2010)

I'm looking at this current auction on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160492898427&ssPageName=STRK:MEBOFFX:IT

I'm thinking the vintage of these are early 90's based on the XT 730,732 cassette and hubs. Is this correct? Also, are they any good!? I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be on rims.

Thanks!


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## fat tire trader (Sep 18, 2010)

They were a top of the line rim at the time. The RM25 came out first, then the RM20. 
Chris


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Another nice outing. Love the newbies!


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## Linoleum (Aug 25, 2008)

Those are easily worth $450.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Not much of an outting though, that wheelset is spendy spendy spendy.


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## banks (Feb 2, 2004)

Tires are worth at least $125/ each...........


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## umarth (Dec 5, 2007)

girlonbike said:


> Another nice outing. Love the newbies!


VRC would have better luck with people following their silly rules if they parsed them down to twenty odd bullet points, rather than having a week's worth of reading...

The wheels look nice..


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

true!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

umarth said:


> VRC would have better luck with people following their silly rules if they parsed them down to twenty odd bullet points, rather than having a week's worth of reading...
> 
> The wheels look nice..


Its a combination of the sticky at the top of the forum and common sense. A lot of times people have trouble with both.

That said, BCNCH tends to overprice his stuff by leaps and bounds.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

umarth said:


> VRC would have better luck with people following their silly rules if they parsed them down to twenty odd bullet points, rather than having a week's worth of reading...
> 
> The wheels look nice..


reading is hard


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## Linoleum (Aug 25, 2008)

That super expensive RM-20 wheelset is MUCH cleaner than my affordable RM-20 wheelset..... that is bronze "super hard anodized" with a 6 speed cassette that is for sale. Wait what?!......


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Its a combination of the sticky at the top of the forum and common sense. A lot of times people have trouble with both.
> 
> That said, BCNCH tends to overprice his stuff by leaps and bounds.


I think he goes a little high on tires, but everything else seems reasonable to me. I've bought from him before and the stuff is always top notch.

I live in the middle of Canada and our cup isn't exactly overflowing with NOS XT stuff from the 80's. Maybe it's available cheaper where you are.


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## hegstad1 (Sep 16, 2010)

Ah, It's good to be the newb!

I guess any link to ebay or craigs could be considered an out but I was really just trying to educate myself on some old parts.


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

hegstad1 said:


> Ah, It's good to be the newb!
> 
> I guess any link to ebay or craigs could be considered an out but I was really just trying to educate myself on some old parts.


I wouldn't worry too much about it. As far as the rims go, those old Arayas are excellent. I have a pair that have held up to lots of abuse and the ano coating never oxidizes or pits. That set may be a bit over priced cosidering they don't come with the tires but they are pretty.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

You could have asked about rm-20s without the link. You can also do a search on this forum. It comes up a lot.

sandmangts, the coating NEVER oxidizes or pits? that's odd. I've seen some that was.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Wow, I bought a set like that from him about a year ago for 1/2 that set's BIN


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## hegstad1 (Sep 16, 2010)

I did a search, girlonbike, but I didn't find the info I was looking for.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

hegstad1 said:


> I did a search, girlonbike, but I didn't find the info I was looking for.


Yes they are good. Those rims with that style sticker are from 90ish, maybe late 89?

What other info do you need?


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## hegstad1 (Sep 16, 2010)

Thanks IF52. That's perfect info.


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

banks said:


> Tires are worth at least $125/ each...........


Auction says the tires aren't included. How do you figure those tires are worth 125 each? Those are Cousin's right?
Built a pair with 24" RM-20's and XTR hubs about six months back and had $268 in the pair with no cassette and chain.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

gm1230126 said:


> Auction says the tires aren't included. How do you figure those tires are worth 125 each? Those are Cousin's right?
> Built a pair with 24" RM-20's and XTR hubs about six months back and had $268 in the pair with no cassette and chain.


I think he was kidding.

The set I bought from BCNCH were NOS takeoffs from a Fisher of some flavor or other. I don't know where he drums up this stuff, but that seems to be what he sells a lot. So I'm gonna guess he has much less than that in these wheels.


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## umarth (Dec 5, 2007)

hollister said:


> reading is hard


Have you ever seen me out anything, sugar booger? I was merely stating instead of complaining every time this happens, making your "rules" more accessible will help cut back on that happening.

And unless you are a very serious collector, I don't really think not outing things is really common sense. Common sense might be sharing with other bike enthusiasts.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

umarth said:


> Have you ever seen me out anything, sugar booger? I was merely stating instead of complaining every time this happens, making your "rules" more accessible will help cut back on that happening.
> 
> And unless you are a very serious collector, I don't really think not outing things is really common sense. Common sense might be sharing with other bike enthusiasts.


reading for comprehension is even harder


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## umarth (Dec 5, 2007)

hollister said:


> reading for comprehension is even harder


I know, and I feel for you.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

mainlyfats said:


> but everything else seems reasonable to me.


I don't think I've seen him price a single thing reasonably. Not a single thing from him I've even considered bidding on due to silly stupid prices.


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

pinguwin said:


> I don't think I've seen him price a single thing reasonably. Not a single thing from him I've even considered bidding on due to silly stupid prices.


Well lucky you! Like I said, not a whole lot of NOS 22 year old XT stuff in these parts.

Let's break it down though - assuming you can build your own wheels:

Rims - They have to worth at least $40 each.
Spokes - 0.50 each, say - $32
Hubs - $100 doesn't seem unreasonable (I've paid more).
Cassette - $30
Chain - $10

Math is hard, but isn't that about $252? Where have I overvalued?


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

People are totally cranky lately.

And I think Pinguwin is talking about eBay prices in general. Generally, wheelsets don't seem to go for much these days. Frankly, some of BCNCH has listed some stuff as "NOS" and it has been loosely defined. I'm not going to list them all for you but you can check out all his completed auctions if you need actual proof. Calling something new when it's been mounted on a bike and removed is not exactly new. New should be sitting uninstalled on a rack or in back of a shop. That's my 2 cents.


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

girlonbike said:


> People are totally cranky lately.
> 
> And I think Pinguwin is talking about eBay prices in general. Generally, wheelsets don't seem to go for much these days. Frankly, some of BCNCH has listed some stuff as "NOS" and it has been loosely defined. I'm not going to list them all for you but you can check out all his completed auctions if you need actual proof. Calling something new when it's been mounted on a bike and removed is not exactly new. New should be sitting uninstalled on a rack or in back of a shop. That's my 2 cents.


I agree, if it has been mounted or a wrench has touched it you can't say it is NOS. I hate ordering parts that say NOS only to recieve them and find wrench marks.


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## rallyrcr (May 5, 2010)

but he's including the pie plate....


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

RM 20's are nice if you want to hang a vintage bike on the wall , but too HEAVY IMO for anything I want to ride . My wife has a low-low mileage polished set off her MB2 that sits in the corner along with the set off my Ritchey until I can collect a proper wheel box........good to know their is a market out there.


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## fat tire trader (Sep 18, 2010)

Hello everyone!
I disagree with some of the comments above.
The first one is the definition of New Old Stock.
It reminds me of a phrase in Greek that my friend Vlassios taught me, a way in Greek to describe an "old maid" "μενει στη ραφτη", literally "she lives on the shelf", so you could call her "new old stock". Though she may have some shelf wear. I think that something remains "New Old Stock" until it has been used. Condition of "New Old Stock" items may vary depending upon their life, so a NOS item could vary from being in "Mint Condition" to a condition that is no longer restore-able.
The second comment that I disagree with is that "RM-20 rims are too heavy to use". This comment/criticism is very personal, and depends upon the intended use of the rim, the rider, and the rider's expectations. But for me personally, since Ambrosio and Mavic started making mtb rims I have preferred their rims to Araya's. But give me a bike with RM-20s and I'll ride it without complaining.
Chris


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

We weren't talking about the auction in question (assuming it was just pulled out of a sealed oem box sitting around somebody's shelf for the last few decades). We're talking about in general.

Even eBay now has pretty strict definition of New. The installation of a product would not probably qualify no matter what the Greeks would say..


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## fat tire trader (Sep 18, 2010)

OK, What is old to you, may not be old to a Greek, that may be a problem with your vision, which might be corrected.
Anyway, in my basement is a Pro Cruiser that I assembled for my friend Don, many years ago. We never finished assembling the bike. It has never had tires nor cables. It is NOS.
A wheel that has been assembled and never ridden is NOS.
What should matter is condition. Like I said before a NOS item could be all rust.
chris ioakimedes


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

mainlyfats said:


> Well lucky you!


Yeah, lucky me. What about it?

Of the auctions from him I've tracked, 90% have not sold. What he is doing, I don't know, but basically, if it's from badcnc, I don't bother. He might be a great seller, fast shipper, etc, but I don't feel his prices are in line with the general market. If he can get it, more power to him. The RM20 auction is actually one of his more reasonable ones.

A month ago, he had a "NOS" frame for $250-$350 starting bid. Pretty reasonable until you get to the part of it being cracked. Did it crack sitting on the shelf? Can this be called NOS?:nono:

I like RM20's. Yes, they are heavier than a M231 but RM20s are very durable and at certain time periods, were as good as anything out there.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

fat tire trader said:


> Anyway, in my basement is a Pro Cruiser that I assembled for my friend Don, many years ago. We never finished assembling the bike. It has never had tires nor cables. It is NOS.
> 
> chris ioakimedes


It's not that I don't believe it exists (like in "pics or it didn't happen"), I do, I do. But..... Come on man, how about at least a little teaser photo....................

The heck with the ebay auction......
Cheers,
T


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## Stylus (Oct 9, 2008)

I would like some 32 hole Araya RM 20s, I've found some 36 holes ones to trade or make two sets of 32-36


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

fat tire trader said:


> Hello everyone!
> I disagree with some of the comments above.
> 
> The second comment that I disagree with is that "RM-20 rims are too heavy to use". This comment/criticism is very personal, and depends upon the intended use of the rim, the rider, and the rider's expectations. But for me personally, since Ambrosio and Mavic started making mtb rims I have preferred their rims to Araya's. But give me a bike with RM-20s and I'll ride it without complaining.
> Chris


You misquoted me I said "but too HEAVY IMO for anything I want to ride" .
They are quite usable if weight is not important to you.


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## cegrover (Oct 17, 2004)

fat tire trader said:


> OK, What is old to you, may not be old to a Greek, that may be a problem with your vision, which might be corrected.
> Anyway, in my basement is a Pro Cruiser that I assembled for my friend Don, many years ago. We never finished assembling the bike. It has never had tires nor cables. It is NOS.
> A wheel that has been assembled and never ridden is NOS.
> What should matter is condition. Like I said before a NOS item could be all rust.
> chris ioakimedes


Obviously, this stuff's open to interpretation, but your point about the Pro Cruiser is interesting. Personally, I would say the bike is NOS with the parts on it, but the parts, if removed from the bike and sold, are no longer NOS because they've been mounted to a bike.


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## fat tire trader (Sep 18, 2010)

How about this,
Level 1 NOS in the original, sealed and never opened box or package. Mint Condition
Level 2 NOS in the original box or package. Mint Condition
Level 3 NOS No box or package. Mint Condition
Level 4 NOS Has been previously installed, but never used, may have wrench marks, but otherwise in mint condition.
Chris


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

call it whatever you like. geez.


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## rockhound (Dec 19, 2005)

I've got some RM20's with Deore hubs...I just figured they were low end beater bike material.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Level 5 NOS They're used, but I wiped them off real good and I really need the money.


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## fat-tony (Sep 6, 2005)

wv_bob said:


> Level 5 NOS They're used, but I wiped them off real good and I really need the money.


nice one! :thumbsup:


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

RM-25s led to RM-20s which led to the RM-17s which then led to the RM-400s and finally the RM-395 Teams. I've built with the last three models myself and still have an RM-395 wheelset on one of my bikes. As to the RM-20s are heavy comment, heavy is relative in VRC land. They're certainly not as bad as Mavic M6 Oxygens (600g range) and fit into the same weight range of the Wolber AT-20s (520g).

The good ol' bikepro site as a rim tables with them listed.

http://www.bikepro.com/products/rims/rimtables.html


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## ScottyMTB (Oct 26, 2005)

In the BMX world, an NOS part is no longer NOS once you mount it on a bike, regardless of whether you ride the bike or not. "Built from NOS parts" is the term mostly commonly used in this case. I believe "Stock" in "New Old Stock" suggests it was part of a parts supply stock as opposed to have been opened and/or used in some fashion, even if that only means mounted. There are probably exceptions, for instance, a part in new like condition that was returned to stock, like a returned item. In most cases this would not be resold as new, but that probably depends on the seller's judgement, or lack there of.


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Here is another way to spend $250 on eBay and get a minty RM-20 and XT wheelset. Comes with some other stuff too.


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## Linoleum (Aug 25, 2008)

Cool Mountain Cat!


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

Finally built up my "overpriced" rims yesterday. NOS Araya RM-17s. Nice rims - weird seam, but nice otherwise and a piece of cake to build up.

Never had a bike with these before, but long ago I had some RM-25 rims that held up beautifully.

Crappy cell phone pic (don't strain your neck!):


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

mainlyfats said:


> Finally built up my "overpriced" rims yesterday. NOS Araya RM-17s.


Holy Lightweight wheels!


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

You'll be happy to know I put a few more spokes in.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

mainlyfats said:


> You'll be happy to know I put a few more spokes in.


LOL! I was fearing for your safety


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## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

mainlyfats said:


> Finally built up my "overpriced" rims yesterday. NOS Araya RM-17s. Nice rims - weird seam, but nice otherwise and a piece of cake to build up.
> 
> Never had a bike with these before, but long ago I had some RM-25 rims that held up beautifully.
> 
> Crappy cell phone pic (don't strain your neck!):


I really liked these rims. I had the on my 1994 Rhygin Ra for more than a decade (hand-built in about 1991, I think) and they remained perfectly true and round. Awesome rims. Here they are just before I dismantled the wheel:

View attachment 606469


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## ballred (Jun 11, 2009)

*Your Bike!*



mainlyfats said:


> You'll be happy to know I put a few more spokes in.


My post is more about you pic than anything. I've never seen a Fat with those forks other than mine! When did you get your bike? I got mine in '87, and in a world full of Yo Eddys I've always kind of felt like an odd duck.

Just so this isn't a total thread jack. In a massive coincidence I just took my wheels in to be re-built today. I'm glad to know that my RM-20s are something more than just my rims. On the scale above I guess they are OOS. They've got the original front SunTour front hub, and a 1st gen. Deore XT rear index. They aren't NOS either


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

ballred said:


> My post is more about you pic than anything. I've never seen a Fat with those forks other than mine! When did you get your bike? I got mine in '87, and in a world full of Yo Eddys I've always kind of felt like an odd duck.
> 
> Just so this isn't a total thread jack. In a massive coincidence I just took my wheels in to be re-built today. I'm glad to know that my RM-20s are something more than just my rims. On the scale above I guess they are OOS. They've got the original front SunTour front hub, and a 1st gen. Deore XT rear index. They aren't NOS either


You have a unicrown fork, brother. Look at the fork-ends and they should - I think - say Shimano. Mine say G.P. Wilson, but this was a weird fork they only made for a couple of years on a bike they called the Team Comp.

Check out fatcogs.com for all things Fat Chance.
:thumbsup:


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