# 4-cross spoke pattern on 32hole rims?



## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

Is this possible/good to do? I found a few websites(courtesy of Jm., thanks) and they have diagrams of how to lace up 36hole wheels with the 4 cross pattern, they say most of the time 32holes use a 3...but seeing as how I don't wanna screwup at all, would it be easier to do 4cross and follow the pattern online?ANy help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks,
Tony

(p.s. hopefully i'll be lacing up my first wheelset in a week or so after i get rims/parts delivered)


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

COmtbiker12 said:


> Is this possible/good to do? I found a few websites(courtesy of Jm., thanks) and they have diagrams of how to lace up 36hole wheels with the 4 cross pattern, they say most of the time 32holes use a 3...but seeing as how I don't wanna screwup at all, would it be easier to do 4cross and follow the pattern online?ANy help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks,
> Tony
> 
> (p.s. hopefully i'll be lacing up my first wheelset in a week or so after i get rims/parts delivered)


The pattern for 32 spokes will work out fine, dont worry about it. The difference is 4, and each of those 4 spokes go in different directions, and then it's repeated throughout the wheel. If you build a 32 spoked wheel 3x, it's all going to work out. It does take a little understanding of the "cross", but I have used sheldon browns site quit a few time and never had much trouble.

I've never heard of anybody doing 4x for 32 spoked wheels, there is a limiting factor about how many spokes you can put in there, and it doesn't work for some reason (but I've never tried to see what it is).

Lace up 32 spoked wheels 3x, thats the way to do it.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

it is not possible to lace a 32 holed rim with a 4x patern


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## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

Jm. said:


> The pattern for 32 spokes will work out fine, dont worry about it. The difference is 4, and each of those 4 spokes go in different directions, and then it's repeated throughout the wheel. If you build a 32 spoked wheel 3x, it's all going to work out. It does take a little understanding of the "cross", but I have used sheldon browns site quit a few time and never had much trouble.
> 
> I've never heard of anybody doing 4x for 32 spoked wheels, there is a limiting factor about how many spokes you can put in there, and it doesn't work for some reason (but I've never tried to see what it is).
> 
> Lace up 32 spoked wheels 3x, thats the way to do it.


Thanks, do you know if the sheldon browns site or anywhere else has a pattern/diagram online with pics of the 3x?


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

The diagram on sheldons site IS 3x. I think its 36 spokes, but that part is not important. You wont get messed up because of this. Sheldons site describes 3x wheels. Read the text under the pictures.


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## Buck (Jan 21, 2004)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> it is not possible to lace a 32 holed rim with a 4x patern


I'm sure it is possible but it is not really necessary. At a certain point more crosses doesn't mean more strength. Check out www.bikeschool.com(they have a great tech forum). It is the UBI website, when I was there they talked about this, It is possible if I remember correctly, but I think they told us that you don't get much more strength out of the wheel, and to point this out you don't see alot of people doing it. Also if you do decide to do it, make sure you firgure out correct spoke length, with that extra cross the spokes will need to be longer.
L8R
Buck


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

What rims are they going on. If they are the Mavic 823's, they come in36 spoke too.


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## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> What rims are they going on. If they are the Mavic 823's, they come in36 spoke too.


Vuelta FR Excalibur, and Mavic D521, I already bought both and they were in 32holes. Plus, the Mavic was on sale at cambria for $29 so I had to buy it


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## damion (Jun 27, 2003)

*Questions?*



COmtbiker12 said:


> Vuelta FR Excalibur, and Mavic D521, I already bought both and they were in 32holes. Plus, the Mavic was on sale at cambria for $29 so I had to buy it


I had a set of the Vuelta FR on my Jekyll, in a 3 cross pattern. I weigh 230lb, and was very abusive to those wheels.

What is your weight, and riding style? The FR rim is going up front, if I remember from an earlier post, right?

Not sure about the 4 cross thing, but I just wanted you to know the build my rims were, and what not. Good luck.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

some hubs cant support 4x anyways, because the spokes will cross the spoke heads at the hub.


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## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

damion said:


> I had a set of the Vuelta FR on my Jekyll, in a 3 cross pattern. I weigh 230lb, and was very abusive to those wheels.
> 
> What is your weight, and riding style? The FR rim is going up front, if I remember from an earlier post, right?
> 
> Not sure about the 4 cross thing, but I just wanted you to know the build my rims were, and what not. Good luck.


Cool! I'm like 200#ish, and this'll be going onto an On-One Gimp, and seeing as how I haven't ridden a hardtail for many many months it'll only be light urban at first, but I intend to start doing some decent djs and some park once I get up my skills a bit. yes it is going up front, i think i will go with the 3cross pattern. hopefully they'll come mid-next week along with my rear rim/hub also. after that i should build them up and post some pics following the completion of that, along with my almost done hardtail. i think after i build them i'll take them to the lbs just to make sure they're built right and are true/tensioned enough to be safe.lol


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## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

zedro said:


> some hubs cant support 4x anyways, because the spokes will cross the spoke heads at the hub.


wow...weird. thanks for the info, i think i'm gonna go with 3 cross. know a good place to get spokes/nipples for cheap? Jm_ posted www.oddsandendos.com on a thread on the Wheels forum, and they seem to be pretty nice... i'll probably get their double butted wheelsmith spokes that are like...49 cents and include brass nipples too.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

yeah, stick with brass nipples for your first wheel, heck for any kind of freeride and downhill wheel or one that has to hold up to a strong/heavy guy. Aluminum nipples are not evil, and they have their uses, but it is way easier to manipulate brass nipples. 

I supported my local bike shops last week when I got spokes and nipples


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## damion (Jun 27, 2003)

*Great idea.*



COmtbiker12 said:


> Cool! I'm like 200#ish, and this'll be going onto an On-One Gimp, and seeing as how I haven't ridden a hardtail for many many months it'll only be light urban at first, but I intend to start doing some decent djs and some park once I get up my skills a bit. yes it is going up front, i think i will go with the 3cross pattern. hopefully they'll come mid-next week along with my rear rim/hub also. after that i should build them up and post some pics following the completion of that, along with my almost done hardtail. i think after i build them i'll take them to the lbs just to make sure they're built right and are true/tensioned enough to be safe.lol


Do the lacing, but leave the tensioning, truing, and re-tensioning to a good wheelbuilder. Good luck.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Buck said:


> I'm sure it is possible but it is not really necessary. At a certain point more crosses doesn't mean more strength. Check out www.bikeschool.com(they have a great tech forum). It is the UBI website, when I was there they talked about this, It is possible if I remember correctly, but I think they told us that you don't get much more strength out of the wheel, and to point this out you don't see alot of people doing it. Also if you do decide to do it, make sure you firgure out correct spoke length, with that extra cross the spokes will need to be longer.
> L8R
> Buck


Its not possible because the first crossing would have spokes physically touching while passing over each other's elbows, which would lead to extra stress there. The max # of crossings possible is to divide the number of spoke holes by 9.


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## summitlt (Jan 30, 2004)

Not to be an ass, or call myself good or anything. But I laced and built my own rim. I used sheldon browns site for help with lacing and that, but I did everything ymself, and had great results out of the rim. No problems at all. I didnt use a truing stand either. Just used the bike and some zip ties.

And for a dish stick, I made my own.

Its not really that hard.


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## Eagle1 (Feb 21, 2004)

Buck is right. When I took the class at UBI there were several demo wheels through out the shop and we discussed 1, 2, 3, 4 cross patterns. Technically there is no strength gain from 4 cross. If you think about it, the spokes will be longer, so it might be a hair weaker. Zed mentions crossing on different types of hubs. I know from using a Razor Rock hub in the past that there was no way it would accept 4x. The flanges are huge.

Coming from the BMX side of things you'll notice a lot of wheel builders use 4x on a 48 spoke wheel. I really think that is just do to availability of pre-cut spoke, not strength. Especially now that a lot of BMX bikes are going back to 36 spokes to save weight.

Stick with 3x and make sure your spoke tension is even. The key to a strong build is optimum spoke tension. If you forsee yourself building more wheels, Park makes a pretty good tension meter at a good price. It's worth the investment.

http://www.parktool.com/tools/TM_1.shtml



Buck said:


> I'm sure it is possible but it is not really necessary. At a certain point more crosses doesn't mean more strength. Check out www.bikeschool.com(they have a great tech forum). It is the UBI website, when I was there they talked about this, It is possible if I remember correctly, but I think they told us that you don't get much more strength out of the wheel, and to point this out you don't see alot of people doing it. Also if you do decide to do it, make sure you firgure out correct spoke length, with that extra cross the spokes will need to be longer.
> L8R
> Buck


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## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

Eagle1 said:


> Buck is right. When I took the class at UBI there were several demo wheels through out the shop and we discussed 1, 2, 3, 4 cross patterns. Technically there is no strength gain from 4 cross. If you think about it, the spokes will be longer, so it might be a hair weaker. Zed mentions crossing on different types of hubs. I know from using a Razor Rock hub in the past that there was no way it would accept 4x. The flanges are huge.
> 
> Coming from the BMX side of things you'll notice a lot of wheel builders use 4x on a 48 spoke wheel. I really think that is just do to availability of pre-cut spoke, not strength. Especially now that a lot of BMX bikes are going back to 36 spokes to save weight.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the help everybody!!! Somehow ICYCLES sent my rim/hub out quick and i got it here today(ordered saturday and was told usps ground and paid like $10 for it) hopefully i can get my mom to drive me to the lbs to get some spokes/nipples. I think i'm gonna go with the 3-cross. I just wanna check something real quick....so when I'm starting to lace it up, i start on the spoke right next to the hole for the valve, and then since i'm doing 3-cross, skip one hole on the rim if i'm doing one side first? but not skip one hole on the hub? Again, thanks for all the help. 
Tony
(I'll post pics when I'm done, even though I doubt i'll be able to get the spokes today)


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## Bence Gabor Slezak (8 mo ago)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> it is not possible to lace a 32 holed rim with a 4x patern


Do you want pictures?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

In my BMX days, I learned to build wheels from George French of G-Sport hubs. 48 hole, 4x was the standard, and I'd cross the third spoke rather then the fourth: under, under, over, under. It seemed to make for some strong AF wheels!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> In my BMX days, I learned to build wheels from George French of G-Sport hubs. 48 hole, 4x was the standard, and I'd cross the third spoke rather then the fourth: under, under, over, under. It seemed to make for some strong AF wheels!



That spoke count might have had something to do with it...


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

mikesee said:


> That spoke count might have had something to do with it...


It certainly did, but all the extra tension in the additional crossing was noticeable when you need it. George French knows wheels.

Most bmx wheels are now 36 spokes and I don't know if 4x would work at all. I haven't built a bmx wheel in over a decade, though.


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