# Removed by Author



## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

*Member has removed content due to fundamental disagreement with this site owner's views favoring expanded access for electric mountain bikes (eMtb) on multiuse singletrack in public lands.*


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

always worked for me, but it depends 'what clothing item' and 'doing what function'

100% it has to be sandwiched between layers of something else, as by itself it's weak and useless under tension

it's off patent, now many others make the same basic material with better qualities


for me the best benefit was repeat days in the alps snowboarding with
spud boots [crampon cleat/snowboard cleat] my boots would
dry out very well overnight in the hotel in the absence of a boot dryer device.

and my own walkaround shoes or boots, great for puddles and slush


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I hate it with anything regarding footwear. Jackets are meh.. but I'm a sweater... 

does that actually make sense? I'm not sure, English is weird  Ok, I sweat. A lot.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

At one point eVent was a big challenger to GoreTex. I still have an eVent jacket although it has started to delaminate, but when it was new I remember being out with my wife who was wearing GoreTex Paclite. She runs cold and I run hot and it was a warm rainy day. She was getting sweaty in her GoreTex and I was perfectly comfortable in eVent.

I'm not sure if it's still the case but at the time GoreTex made it a stipulation in their licensing agreements that brands couldn't use GoreTex and one of their competitors products, which is why most of the brands have their own version of a breathable fabric e.g.North Face HyVent, Patagonia H2No etc...


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

D. Inoobinati said:


> It vents moisture too slowly: I always end up sweating in it and getting wet even on cold dry days.
> It's never been waterproof, except when brand new. Re-waterproofing with sprays works but then kills breathability.
> It's super expensive: 3-5X the cost of coated fabrics.
> It's delicate: has to be kept clean, often flakes off the fabric.
> ...


that is 1 expensive brand 😇


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> At one point eVent was a big challenger to GoreTex. I still have an eVent jacket although it has started to delaminate, but when it was new I remember being out with my wife who was wearing GoreTex Paclite. She runs cold and I run hot and it was a warm rainy day. She was getting sweaty in her GoreTex and I was perfectly comfortable in eVent.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's still the case but at the time GoreTex made it a stipulation in their licensing agreements that brands couldn't use GoreTex and one of their competitors products, which is why most of the brands have their own version of a breathable fabric e.g.North Face HyVent, Patagonia H2No etc...


I have an eVent rain jacket and tent. The way that stuff breathes is incredible!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

it's never been good for high exertion activities. I don't go anywhere near it for riding unless it's pouring hard.

but it's plenty good for what it's designed to do.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

davec113 said:


> I have an eVent rain jacket and tent. The way that stuff breathes is incredible!


Recent purchases?


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Gore-Tex fan here.

I was a bike messenger ('89-'96) in Washington D.C. and then Chicago. Gore-Tex was my best friend. I even had GT socks (worn over actual socks).

The original GT membrane (which is still available) was 100% water proof and breathable. DWR was applied to the outside for water repellency. If it wore off over time, the membrane was still waterproof. The outer layer would get wet, the membrane kept me dry. 

There are newer GT products (infinium) which are water resistant, not waterproof. It's effective for light water and is wind-proof, but would be severely lacking for riding a bike in 38 degree rain for 8-10 hours.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Harold said:


> it's never been good for high exertion activities. I don't go anywhere near it for riding unless it's pouring hard.
> 
> but it's plenty good for what it's designed to do.


What was it designed to do? Keep you dryish while watching football?


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

depends on which GT membrane your are using. Was it paclite? Gore tex active and pro have never let me down from commercial fishing boats in the gulf of Alaska to 50 mile bike rides in the rain. I prefer GT active, but am really liking the infinium membrane which for all intents and purposes has proven out to be essentially fully water proof.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> At one point eVent was a big challenger to GoreTex. I still have an eVent jacket although it has started to delaminate, but when it was new I remember being out with my wife who was wearing GoreTex Paclite. She runs cold and I run hot and it was a warm rainy day. She was getting sweaty in her GoreTex and I was perfectly comfortable in eVent.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's still the case but at the time GoreTex made it a stipulation in their licensing agreements that brands couldn't use GoreTex and one of their competitors products, which is why most of the brands have their own version of a breathable fabric e.g.North Face HyVent, Patagonia H2No etc...


Paclite has never been great. I stay away from it. Active membrane has really made it pointless IMHO


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> What was it designed to do? Keep you dryish while watching football?


It's always been better for hiking and other lower exertion activities.

frankly, when you get to high exertion stuff, breathability becomes a lot more important and highly water resistant softshells work so much better.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Harold said:


> It's always been better for hiking and other lower exertion activities.
> 
> frankly, when you get to high exertion stuff, breathability becomes a lot more important and highly water resistant softshells work so much better.


I sweat through it doing that stuff too.  So I've really never found it useful.

That guy with the salt marks? Yea, dat me. I look at my bike and my body starts to cool me down🤣


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> I sweat through it doing that stuff too.


when I'm hoofing it up a steep climb, yeah, I start sweating through it, too.

I have a goretex jacket that was given to me through work. I use it, but usually not when I'm actually riding. typically when I'm guiding hiking programs or when I'm doing some kind of instructional activity where I do a lot of stopping and standing (which sometimes include mtb skills clinics).

I have a specialized "windbreaker" thin softshell that works a TON better for riding. It's really not even marketed for being good in rain, but it works quite well under the more common lighter rain. it gets overwhelmed when it starts pouring for very long, but that doesn't surprise me much.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Wind blocking softshells are nice but they usually come with a football team logo, or some half marathon, or car dealership, or medical supplier, or......you get the picture.

I have a reversible hooded windbreaker that I bought for less than 20 bucks, but I wish it had pit zips. Patagonia once made a hooded, coated shell that packed down into a fist sized package that looked ideal but sold for $100 (!)

What are those clear shells you see TDF riders throw on when it starts drizzling?

It's interesting how different everyone's experience is with this one fabric.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Patagonia once made a hooded, coated shell that packed down into a fist sized package that looked ideal but sold for $100 (!)


Sounds like the Houdini, I love mine, I think I paid ~$75 are REI in a sale, packs down to nothing, keeps the wind off and does ok in a light shower, but not for heavy rain. I chuck mine in a Wolf Tooth B-RAD bag on my downtube along with REI's basic down vest, which also packs down to nothing. For a fall ride in New England, with a merino base layer you can regulate your temp pretty well.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Wind blocking softshells are nice but they usually come with a football team logo, or some half marathon, or car dealership, or medical supplier, or......you get the picture.


where are you finding softshells that only come with logos plastered all over them?

there are lots of outdoor-chic types of things out there that companies will give to employees (my wife has more than a few of these). that's not the type of gear I'm talking about (though it's often made by the same companies because it lines their pockets). I'm talking about actual technical gear.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Harold said:


> where are you finding softshells that only come with logos plastered all over them?


I have two Rab softshells, a lightweight jacket for general use, hiking etc… and an Upslope which is my primary ski jacket. Paired with the right layers underneath it’s good into negative temps, really breathable, completely windproof and reasonable good in the rain.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

No shell is great for everything. You just have to know when to use what.


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## 11053 (Sep 19, 2009)

Goretex effectiveness is a very simple calculation.
However, it takes significant in the field experience( or garment fabrication/testing experience) to understand where it succeeds/fails.
The membrane works off of the pressure differential of two temperature extremes( basically what is inside the membrane and what is outside the membrane).
Humidity is the wild card=the membrane can get overwhelmed on either side=hot steamy you during physical exertion or hot steamy environment that you are exercising in.
It works amazingly well if the outside temps are low and there is minimal humidity outside the membrane. In those situations it works great.
It fails to deliver if it is raining and you are exercising hard= not enough temp differential to facilitate transfer moisture through the membrane and very little variance in humidity on either side of the membrane.
Goretex does not deliver in humid high temp environments. in those situations it doesn't transfer moisture vapor and although it keeps moisture on the outside, it allows condensation to build up on the inside.
It does great in cold/dry environments.
Here's a fun fact= put on a Goretex garment and step in to a very hot/steamy shower. Water in liquid form will not get through the membrane...but water in vapor form will. The wearer will get wet as the water vapor(steam) in the shower will migrate across the membrane to the lower temp and drier environment close to the wearer of the garment.


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## bcriverjunky (Jul 8, 2014)

I only shop Swix gear from now on. Pants are amazing. Men | Swix USA


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Not a fan of GoreTex either. There is a reason why most goretex jackets have huge armpit vents.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

I have a 20 year old 3-ply mountain parka that works flawlessly. I’ve spent a week in nearly nonstop rain in it in the Boundary Waters and skied a lot in it, with pit zips open as needed. The 3-ply fabric is crinkly/noisy but absolutely waterproof and reasonably breathable. Having a single bonded layer might help? I’ve always found GT boots too hot, although again nicely waterproof.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I don’t do well with Goretex jackets when exerting hard under pretty much any conditions. I find them good for hiking of casual biking (like when I used to commute).

But I seem to do fine with Goretex shoes/boots, even during high exertion. .


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Gore-Tex is optimal in a smaller subset of conditions than most clothing manufacturers would have you believe... but they do mitigate the worst suffering/outcomes when weather conditions for that manifest. Therefore I carry a Gore-Tex shell more often than I actually use it... but when I have to use it, I'm generally very glad to have it.

I find that a good windbreaker/softshell and a (or a couple of) well-chosen baselayer(s) better covers the conditions I'm normally likely to be out recreating in.

That said, I have found Gore-Tex shoes/boots to be generally fine in all but the hottest conditions.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Once again I find myself in the small minority of being very happy with a product others seem to hate.

My Arc’teryx Alpha AR GoreTex Pro shell sees a lot of use. It’s a workhorse. I would say it gets even more ride time than my beloved Patagonia Houdini. Then again, I use the massive pit zips lots, as well as the full length zipper, to vent the body heat I am producing. And that’s not to say I don’t stop to shed it completely, long before I start to overheat.

Plus, I’m in Canada - my ride the other night was at minus 22. Underneath it I was wearing an Arc’teryx Cerium LT vest. Perfect combo for the conditions.

My critical riding outerwear includes my Patagonia Houdini for 6 month 3 season use, and my Arc’teryx Alpha AR GoreTex Pro shell for 6 month winter and shoulder season use. I don’t need any other outer wear. Those two shells nail every condition I ride in, year round 👍


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

D. Inoobinati said:


> It vents moisture too slowly: I always end up sweating in it and getting wet even on cold dry days.
> It's never been waterproof, except when brand new. Re-waterproofing with sprays works but then kills breathability.
> It's super expensive: 3-5X the cost of coated fabrics.
> It's delicate: has to be kept clean, often flakes off the fabric.
> ...


What you are experiencing is what we have come to understand as the rule here in AK. 

MTB is a pretty high exertion sport much of the time, at least as compared to say, walking. Maybe not as high as running, but close. As such, there really is no "waterproof and breathable". Nothing waterproof breathes enough to avoid drenching in sweat, at least most of the time. Change a few parameters and the "waterproof" layer is ineffective. I find around 40 degrees or so, light to moderate rain, it can work for a while, but you raise the temp, the lack of breathability kills you, your temp skyrockets trying to cool off. You increase the rain or simply the time in the rain, the "waterproof" membrane is overwhelmed and starts to pass water like crazy. 

Luckily, a lot of our winter riding is in significantly sub-freezing temps where water isn't a concern. A few people will still use "waterproof" layers, and suffer the breathability issues, but most of us will use better venting stuff, because you don't really have to worry about getting wet anymore. When your outer layer is below freezing...you don't need waterproof anything. Like today, I was backcountry skiing. It was freezing fog (unfortunately) down low, but 25 to 28 degrees and it just instantly freezes on your outer layer. It doesn't go any further. As it gets colder, this is more and more the thing. 

Our shoulder seasons are the big issue and we get a good amount of rain in the late summer. Packable jackets are nice, and even further, two packable "waterproof" jackets may be necessary. You aren't exactly trying to stay "dry" anymore, you are just trying to trap heat in a layer, which two of these will do pretty well. They also dry pretty fast if you get into those kind of conditions. Hand and foot-warmers help a lot. Vapor barriers or winter boots for the shoulder seasons can help for the same reasons. There are also full side-zip packable rain pants. Again, won't keep you totally dry, but will trap some heat. 

When it gets real cold, or cold and windy, the "waterproof" layers are nice because of how they block wind. But you need some significantly cold temps or wind to keep that from causing you to sweat, but again, they do block wind, and that can be a positive.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

DtEW said:


> Gore-Tex is optimal in a smaller subset of conditions than most clothing manufacturers would have you believe... but they do mitigate the worst suffering/outcomes when weather conditions for that manifest. Therefore I carry a Gore-Tex shell more often than I actually use it... but when I have to use it, I'm generally very glad to have it.
> 
> I find that a good windbreaker/softshell and a (or a couple of) well-chosen baselayer(s) better covers the conditions I'm normally likely to be out recreating in.
> 
> That said, I have found Gore-Tex shoes/boots to be generally fine in all but the hottest conditions.


Yes, exactly. Light exertion. Light to moderate precip. If you increase the precip or time, you need rubberized rain gear, and you aren't going to stay "dry", but you will stay warmer.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

chiefsilverback said:


> Recent purchases?


No, had the gear for a while now. There's some comparable alternatives these days but not sure what's good. I'd probably check out 7Mesh if I needed a rain jacket.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

davec113 said:


> No, had the gear for a while now. There's some comparable alternatives these days but not sure what's good. I'd probably check out 7Mesh if I needed a rain jacket.


I love 7Mesh. But in my view, nothing tops Arc’teryx for outer wear. Just my view of course.


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## Caligata (Dec 30, 2020)

GORE-TEX is a scam. 
W. L. Gore & Associates conspires with garment manufacturers and influential retailers to defraud consumers.


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## NuclearNachos (Sep 25, 2021)

chiefsilverback said:


> I have two Rab softshells, a lightweight jacket for general use, hiking etc… and an Upslope which is my primary ski jacket. Paired with the right layers underneath it’s good into negative temps, really breathable, completely windproof and reasonable good in the rain.


what rab softshells do you have? looking at getting a borealis for multiuse activities (biking, hiking, climbing, just a general jacket) and some layers for colder weather


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I love 7Mesh. But in my view, nothing tops Arc’teryx for outer wear. Just my view of course.


From google:

_Who started 7mesh?


The three founders, Tyler Jordan (you'll hear him often being referred to as TJ), *Ian Martin and Calum Davidson* aren't three people who randomly got together to do a passion project. They were three early staff members and integral to the success of outdoor clothing juggernaut, Arcteryx.Jan 25, 2021_


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

davec113 said:


> From google:
> 
> _Who started 7mesh?
> 
> ...


https://www.zafiri.com/cycling-apparel-7mesh-founding-story/

I wouldn’t say necessarily that the former Arc’teryx guys took what they knew and used it to catapult 7Mesh over Arc’teryx. Only that they used their knowledge to focus on cycling specific attire (Arc’teryx has its roots in climbing, and always will). Sounds like they wanted to escape the growing corporate matrix too, that ended up consuming Arc’teryx.

I am 100% sold on both brands. 7Mesh is biking specific and MUCH less expensive (especially since I can always get it at a discount). And the design genius shows through on the trails. Arc’teryx, generally, is nothing short of awesome but does not make a lot of biking attire I require (for example, chamois shorts, bibs and outer shorts). Arc’teryx does not seem as progressive either (for example, 7Mesh has THE BEST side/rear quad pockets which magically make my massive phone instantly disappear). Both fit me as though I have a personal tailor sewing the stuff for me in the next room. Sizing is personal but both companies are consistent - absolute perfect sizing for me is one of many reasons I love both companies.

I love wearing my Arc’teryx shells and mid layers - a _tiny_ bit more than my 7Mesh stuff. But both make stuff I wear and will wear for years and years, with no problems, and no reason to replace it. Despite its sometimes…errrr…slightly lofty price tag, it’s way cheaper in the end to buy it once and never feel the need to replace it, than having to replace over and over some of the less expensive stuff I have, that has ended up with blown seams and zippers, and which has not performed nearly as well on the trail - especially in adverse conditions, which can arise at altitude quickly and with no warning. That’s when these two quality brands continue to perform effectively, effortlessly and indefinitely. I have Arc’teryx attire well over 10 years old, with massive mileage, that’s as good as new, including…back to the topic…GoreTex attire 🙂


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## ice29 (Nov 11, 2011)

I am a huge fan of Gore-Tex jackets, but of course their membranes differ...
Actually probably the best clothing upgrade in my whole cycling "carreer" is when I bought the Gore C7 Shakedry Stretch jacket (link). Expensive, yes (though got it on sale), but it is so universal it's unbelievable. Fully waterproof, packs into a pocket, breathes unbelievably well (for a jacket), I can wear it all 4 seasons (when climbing in autumn/winter and it's not raining I simply unzip it completely, otherwise I leave it closed). Saved me lots of money for other special jackets (agains wind, cold, etc.) since I can simply put some warm merino under it and voila, I have my winter jacket for riding in the cold wind.
The only issue with it will come when I hit the ground, since I guess it will rip to pieces immediately  (that is why I also most of the time don't wear it when riding MTB, the branches etc. on trail would rip it apart)


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

@davec113 I took a stroll downtown today. Found this:









I think I need to take back what I said above. Or at least reconsider it. That 7Mesh Co-Pilot jacket is incredible. And the fit!!! Wow.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Wind blocking softshells are nice but they usually come with a football team logo, or some half marathon, or car dealership, or medical supplier, or......you get the picture.
> 
> I have a reversible hooded windbreaker that I bought for less than 20 bucks, but I wish it had pit zips. Patagonia once made a hooded, coated shell that packed down into a fist sized package that looked ideal but sold for $100 (!)


I have waterproof windbreakers from both both Columbia and North Face. Both have pit zips too. I paid around $30 to 40 for them. Columbia has sales on their jackets quite often at pretty significant discounts. I was happy to have a waterproof jacket when I got caught in a random downpour in Mammoth and rain shower Vegas.

Only thing I have that's Gore-Tex are some arm warmers for road riding. They seem to work pretty well for its intended purpose.


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

Caligata said:


> GORE-TEX is a scam.
> W. L. Gore & Associates conspires with garment manufacturers and influential retailers to defraud consumers.


Obviously you have some scientific research -or at least some reasonably intelligent & logical testing results to back that up?


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I like Sugoi for rain protection and the vents. Castelli for the under layer.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Soaks through in prolonged moderate or heavier than moderate precip.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

D. Inoobinati said:


> What are those clear shells you see TDF riders throw on when it starts drizzling?



According to Phil Liggett and Paul Sherwin, those are "racing capes!"

I wear soft-shell stuff until it's really nuking, and then I'll throw on a W/B membrane jacket of some sort, _and_ slow the pace way down so that I don't soak myself from the inside.


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

D. Inoobinati said:


> What are those clear shells you see TDF riders throw on when it starts drizzling?


I've got a hand-me-down from my spouse who raced back in the day. They are completely waterproof, but with massive side-venting. The actually work okay because the parts of your torso that are subjected to wind won't get wet and you vent off a lot heat through the sides ...they do "yellow" after while though. Never seen one in stores.


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## Igotsoul4u (May 11, 2019)

I have a few things from Gore Tex that are cycling specific and always had it in my ski jackets. The cycling jacket I have is really awesome for my winter rides and bright orange so hunters don't kill me. I also have a wind proof gore tex base layer with a fully vented back. The combo works really well for 32-50 degree temps. I have a castelli base layer that gets all the 10-40 degree temps with the jacket on top. Wind does not get through at all. Doesn't seem to get smelly very easily and washing it isn't difficult. I mainly buy gore tex for truly cold weather when breathability isn't as important as keeping heat in. I got all my stuff on a 50% off sale so the price wasn't a huge factor. Hopefully it lasts a while, but I'm pretty happy for the moment.


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