# Manual Machine



## HAMP (Apr 3, 2012)

What are your thoughts on them?

I would love to hear the good and the bad. I'm thinking about building my own.


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## merk20 (Dec 23, 2017)

well the good is you can manual without consequence. the bad is (in my opinion) there not very realistic. short but informative.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

merk20 said:


> well the good is you can manual without consequence. the bad is (in my opinion) there not very realistic. short but informative.


I've never seen one in person but from what I have seen I agree with what you said. Not realistic to actual riding.

For those unfamiliar with what they are.

https://sandiegomountainbikeskills.com/2017/07/05/introducing-the-manual-machine/


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

practice is the real manual machine...


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

New winter project!


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## HAMP (Apr 3, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> New winter project!


lol...
Yes it is..

I will go back forth on manual to learn and spinner to keep the pedals moving.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Someone needs to get an old treadmill and build a manual machine on it!


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

I've never used one but I can see where it can help learn the motion to get the front wheel up without looping out. But I don't think it will help with actually learning how to manual. Two things I think are essential to learning it is finding the balance point and learning to use the rear brakes without thinking. Both of which would be difficult to learn on a machine. Another problem is a machine like that won't allow your bike to move laterally side to side as you're pulling up, so you will never master the motion correctly. The biggest problem I had learning the manual was to pull up evenly even the slightest unevenness on one side of the body will send you looping around in a circle. 

Instead of using a machine I suggest finding a nice parking lot and pulling up on your front wheel to the point you're about to loop out and then slamming on the rear brake before you actually loop out repetitively until you get comfortable with your balance point and using your rear brakes. Doing that will actually teach you the first steps to how to manual.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Lemonaid said:


> I've never used one but I can see where it can help learn the motion to get the front wheel up without looping out. But I don't think it will help with actually learning how to manual. Two things I think are essential to learning it is finding the balance point and learning to use the rear brakes without thinking. Both of which would be difficult to learn on a machine. Another problem is a machine like that won't allow your bike to move laterally side to side as you're pulling up, so you will never master the motion correctly. The biggest problem I had learning the manual was to pull up evenly even the slightest unevenness on one side of the body will send you looping around in a circle.
> 
> Instead of using a machine I suggest finding a nice parking lot and pulling up on your front wheel to the point you're about to loop out and then slamming on the rear brake before you actually loop out repetitively until you get comfortable with your balance point and using your rear brakes. Doing that will actually teach you the first steps to how to manual.


I'd shorten that and just say it's a piece of crap that gives one false hope and will take up a lot of space.

I guess if you live on a 40 acre ranch you could build one behind the barn where it will end up being used three times and then sit there rotting into the earth for the next 25 years.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I'd shorten that and just say it's a piece of crap that gives one false hope and will take up a lot of space.
> 
> I guess if you live on a 40 acre ranch you could build one behind the barn where it will end up being used three times and then sit there rotting into the earth for the next 25 years.


+1.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I think it could be helpful, I've seen skills coaches that hold students in the right position to let them know what it feels like and to get them used to being in what is (to most) a very unnatural position on the bike.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Only on MTBR... ride your damn bike if you want to learn to manual.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Seen a couple in person and that is probably the more complex version pictured above. Really it is meant for nothing more than understanding the muscle memory to get things going. For me there is no where that you can do this on the trail reliably to learn the motions, you are either in a flow downhill or climbing. Flats are located on bike paths and streets and there really are no school tracks to test it out on or flat grass. 

So yes, getting on your bike and practicing is the best way to learn however if you can't get enough realestate to actually practice on the trail then what? Are you just supposed to never learn? And really most people with even small houses will have enough spare lumber laying around that they can make one OR better yet can go grab a couple of pallets from their local auto parts store, grocery store, hardware store, or just about anywhere and make it for next to nothing.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think it could be helpful, I've seen skills coaches that hold students in the right position to let them know what it feels like and to get them used to being in what is (to most) a very unnatural position on the bike.


A bunch of ridiculous hate for something nobody here has ever tried (and few have even seen).

It's just a tool to help. Obviously you're not going to be able to learn everything you need to know on one of these, and then be able to go nail a manual on the trail without additional practice.

Yes, it does help getting comfortable in a position that feels very unnatural at first. It does help you feel where the balance point is. Obviously you have to adjust the strap on this one correctly. It can also help you rapidly repeat the motion you need to use to get the front wheel up. True, it does not help you with side-to-side balance and control. It's not supposed to. It controls those elements to help you learn OTHER aspects more quickly.

Only on MTBR...where people tell you to learn something complex by telling you to just do that complex thing.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

So I guess we are supposed to be tricked into believing that this lady on this contraption will be proficient in the art of manuals in no time.ut:

And what's worse is she's been duped into thinking so. She's in a for a world of hurt once she tries this in the real world.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> So I guess we are supposed to be tricked into believing that this lady on this contraption will be proficient in the art of manuals in no time.ut:
> 
> And what's worse is she's been duped into thinking so. She's in a for a world of hurt once she tries this in the real world.


So even though we simplify OTHER things in order to learn them, doing so for manuals is the wrong way?

Throw that toddler on a 2 wheeler pedal bike from day one! No holding the saddle for them! No training wheels! No balance bike! Let them eat $hit until they get it!
Can't do advanced calculus in 1st grade? That's okay. You don't need arithmetic, or geometry, or algebra. You'll get it if you try hard enough.
Doctors should learn to do surgery on live patients. No artificial models or cadavers for them to practice on. That's just stupid.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Harold said:


> A bunch of ridiculous hate for something nobody here has ever tried (and few have even seen).
> 
> It's just a tool to help. Obviously you're not going to be able to learn everything you need to know on one of these, and then be able to go nail a manual on the trail without additional practice.
> 
> ...


This 100%!

Now where's that old treadmill...


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## Rusnak_322 (Dec 6, 2009)

I wish something like this worked. I can wheelie over 1/4 mile (length of my street). I can go fast or less then walking pace. I can make a u-turn in a 2 lane rode on the back wheel. But even after watching dozens of videos and practicing half the summer, I can manual maybe 6 foot at a time. 
This is on a DJ bike or my 24” BMX that are supposed to be easy to manual.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Harold said:


> So even though we simplify OTHER things in order to learn them, doing so for manuals is the wrong way?


Yes, because giving one a sense of false hope on such a dangerous move can turn into a traumatic event. This machine / contraption does nothing more than hold the bike upright and stable without letting the rider go over backwards. Nothing compared to a real world manual. Comparing toddlers on a two wheeled bike and pushing them then releasing until they eat ****. A great way to start but the crashes are not nearly as traumatic compared to flipping over backwards in the wheelie position. Landing on your tailbone possibly breaking it and smacking your head straight back with serious impact or landing with arms extended backwards to break your fall [which is the natural instinct in such a situation] and landing on your wrists. This kind of crash happens in a millisecond and is a very traumatic event. Nothing compared to going along and losing your balance and tipping over. Not really a comparison in my opinion.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Isn't it? Even without one of these, I looped out hard when practicing manuals for the first time when I suddenly nailed the motion to get my front wheel up and wasn't ready for it.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Everything complex we learn, we start off small. We eliminate as many complicating factors as possible to learn the basics and slowly add them back in once we are ready to progress.

There is rarely a single way of learning something complex, and for some people, certain methods click better than others. Who are you to say that this is terrible? Ever actually used one? 



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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Harold said:


> Isn't it? Even without one of these, I looped out hard when practicing manuals for the first time when I suddenly nailed the motion to get my front wheel up and wasn't ready for it.
> 
> You have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> ...


"I have no idea what I'm talking about".

Seriously? I grew up riding motocross and mountain biking. Wheelies are in my blood. I've ridden wheelies on bikes and motorcycles since the age of 7. I have the shattered wrist joint to prove how traumatic an event it is to go over backwards in a hurry, It happens in a millisecond. I don't agree with this contraption duplicating real world manuals. Giving one a false hope on such a dangerous move with serious consequences and injury being imminent is not what I'd call a learning tool. Go out and practice on your bike if doing a manual is so important. You'll learn quicker and be a lot less likely to hurt yourself. Going from this contraption to a real world manual, sorry but it's not the same. In my opinion after practicing on this contraption you would get in the real world and think you've got this very hard move down. It only takes one bad loop out to send you in a world of hurt.

No, I've never actually used one. I stated that in my very first post with photos for all to see what this thing is.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Harold, I'd like to opolgize if I came across like a dick. Nothing towards you. I've had a migraine all day with head cold symptoms coming on.


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## HAMP (Apr 3, 2012)

Hey Harold, I agree with everything you have said. Too many positive to quote.

Hey DIRTJUNKIE, I'm saying you were being a dick like you just mentioned your last post, but the things you said did stop me from replying to anything... I was kinda scared to reply in the thread I started.. lol

DIRTJUNKIE, without a doubt, I do not expect to know how to manual from this device. I'm hoping to get the basic beginner part of the manual. 

It will all come down to practicing with or without the device. I live Michigan, and its cold and snowy out. I'm actually done riding for a few months.

I figure I can't goof with it while I spin. I hope spinning is ok with you since it's not actually on a rode outside?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

HAMP said:


> DIRTJUNKIE, without a doubt, I do not expect to know how to manual from this device. I'm hoping to get the basic beginner part of the manual.


I was just trying to warn anyone trying this device not to get false hopes and end up in a world of hurt once you get on in the real world of manuals. I've had a lot of injuries from extreme sports like ours. Broken neck, sternum, ribs, scapula, ankle, shattered wrist joint. Numerous soft tissue traumatic injuries, concussions. I must say, the shattered wrist joint was towards the top of the most painful and it being 10 years since, it's a lifelong injury with 20% loss in wrist movement. The wrist joint injury was from practicing wheelies. Perfecting a manual is harder and carries the same possible penalties with failure.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

One just needs to go to the U-toobs to see what these things are all about and what they can do for a rider. I watched the one below for a bit last night and haven't had time to look at others. All I get from the MM is that it gives you muscle memory of how to pull into a manual, which I think could be useful.


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## HAMP (Apr 3, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I was just trying to warn anyone trying this device not to get false hopes and end up in a world of hurt once you get on in the real world of manuals. I've had a lot of injuries from extreme sports like ours. Broken neck, sternum, ribs, scapula, ankle, shattered wrist joint. Numerous soft tissue traumatic injuries, concussions. I must say, the shattered wrist joint was towards the top of the most painful and it being 10 years since, it's a lifelong injury with 20% loss in wrist movement. The wrist joint injury was from practicing wheelies. Perfecting a manual is harder and carries the same possible penalties with failure.


Cool!!! This reply shows that you meant well. Sometimes the real message gets lost with misunderstanding.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> One just needs to go to the U-toobs to see what these things are all about and what they can do for a rider. I watched the one below for a bit last night and haven't had time to look at others. All I get from the MM is that it gives you muscle memory of how to pull into a manual, which I think could be useful.


After watching that video, which I faintly remember watching a few months ago. It does seem like it would help to learn in some aspects. Muscle memory and balance. Just be forewarned of and cautious of the real world differences once you try it in the real world. Great video and very personable teacher.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

A manual machine on a treadmill would be brilliant!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> After watching that video, which I faintly remember watching a few months ago. It does seem like it would help to learn in some aspects. Muscle memory and balance. Just be forewarned of and cautious of the real world differences once you try it in the real world. Great video and very personable teacher.


There is another vid that is older of a kid using one his dad built in his basement. I have a difficult time finding it, but his had no strap to hold the front down. Instead, dad put a crash pad like you use in bouldering behind it. I built one based on that design, but do not have a crash pad, so I have not used it.

As you said, there are nearly infinite ways for us to injure ourselves on our bikes. Stuff ranging from stupid and careless mistakes in lame situations to attempting truly dangerous things without the skills. Any manual machine can add risk of injury if you are not careful, but there are smart ways to mitigate most of that risk. The least risky (at least from an injury perspective) option would be to never ride a bike. But that is not why we are here, is it?

Methinks you should go chill with some strong medications until your migraine has cleared up.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Ray Lee (Aug 17, 2007)

"A bunch of ridiculous hate for something nobody here has ever tried (and few have even seen)" 

usually how half of the comments go on this site... really weird, so many people seem to hate change, anything new and especially different .... oddly if it was expensive and the marketing done by a bearded dude in a flat brim with "sick tats" they would be lining up to buy it (obviously made from steal or carbon depending on the target group) LOL 

Would not say she can manual but I was able to teach my wife how to get the front wheel up for a few feet without crank power or jerking the bars by standing behind her basically acting as her manual machine... seems like this would teach you the balance point (or at least show you how far you can go before looping out.)


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Ray Lee said:


> "A bunch of ridiculous hate for something nobody here has ever tried (and few have even seen)"
> 
> usually how half of the comments go on this site... really weird, so many people seem to hate change, anything new and especially different .... oddly if it was expensive and the marketing done by a bearded dude in a flat brim with "sick tats" they would be lining up to buy it (obviously made from steal or carbon depending on the target group) LOL


Maybe my posts were taken wrong. I don't hate what I've never tried. I was simply stating that while it may be a tool to learn some skills needed for mastering a manual. It's not the same as learning in the real world. I was simply warning those that try it to be aware and cautious going from this contraption to real world riding. There's a big difference. A false sense of what you think may be skills to master a manual on this contraption may quickly turn sour and slam you on your back in real world riding, that is all.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I was simply warning those that try it to be aware and cautious going from this contraption to real world riding. There's a big difference. A false sense of what you think may be skills to master a manual on this contraption may quickly turn sour and slam you on your back in real world riding, that is all.


Nobody ever said this tool would teach you everything you needed to know to manual. Nobody here was even suggesting they might develop a false sense of their skills from using something like this.

It just lets people take baby steps towards learning manuals.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Harold said:


> Nobody ever said this tool would teach you everything you needed to know to manual. Nobody here was even suggesting they might develop a false sense of their skills from using something like this.
> 
> It just lets people take baby steps towards learning manuals.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Well then, may I at least suggest they buy a how to manual first?


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Whoa DJ, you better get down to your local dispensary. STAT! :eekster:


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mookie said:


> Whoa DJ, you better get down to your local dispensary. STAT! :eekster:


Jeez, a guy can't even go off the deep end around here. :incazzato:


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## HAMP (Apr 3, 2012)

Hey DIRTJUNKIE,
I just came across this video and I must say after watching it, I agree with your thought 100%
Video was posted over 5yrs ago. 





They make it look like a scam or something. Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to build mine and get a basic feel for getting started.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Jeez, a guy can't even go off the deep end around here. :incazzato:


That's OK, just don't let it happen again.


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## Strafer (Jun 7, 2004)

No need to build that contraption if you have an old mag trainer gathering dust.
I was able to fit 142x12 rear after removing the mag resistance part, and works just like the "manual machine".


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## HAMP (Apr 3, 2012)

Strafer said:


> No need to build that contraption if you have an old mag trainer gathering dust.
> I was able to fit 142x12 rear after removing the mag resistance part, and works just like the "manual machine".


I don't have one of those, but I am wonder how things worked out for you?


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## Strafer (Jun 7, 2004)

Works same as the machines in the videos.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

How do these contraptions deal with side loads? Does it keep you from falling over to the side? Will that side-load stress do any damage your bike or rear wheel?


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

This whole thread does give me an idea. I did not grow up with a bike I could wheelie or manual so I did not try until I was nearly 60 years old. After landing on my tailbone in the grass four times I figured I had better give up. Building one of these would take me about an hour. My problem was knowing the position and the balance point. I am sure I can figure out the balance. 

Since then I have built an alpine skiing simulator that can be modified to allow for everything except braking action. I can be in a harness that is spring loaded to cushion/prevent injury falls including the bike. The machine has a fairly narrow window to ride in and will trigger immediate shutdown using light curtains.

Dang I did not think about this until the variety of posts in this thread. Thanks guys. 


I will try first with a light DJ type bike and work up to my 60 lb e fatbike.


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## Entrenador (Oct 8, 2004)

PierreR said:


> ...Since then I have built an alpine skiing simulator that can be modified to allow for everything except braking action. I can be in a harness that is spring loaded to cushion/prevent injury falls including the bike. The machine has a fairly narrow window to ride in and will trigger immediate shutdown using light curtains.


Post a few photos, or better yet a video of it/you in action.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> A manual machine on a treadmill would be brilliant!


A bit off topic, but I remember years ago seeing people doing something similar with motorcycles, i.e. using a dyno as a giant wheeling training machine.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

scatterbrained said:


> A bit off topic, but I remember years ago seeing people doing something similar with motorcycles, i.e. using a dyno as a giant wheeling training machine.


Pansies. . . 😂 channeling my inner Evel Kneivel.


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## bicyclemech1 (Feb 22, 2009)

I made my own with a mag trainer a couple years ago, after first seeing a super nice rig at the Lumberyard up in Portland.

I think it has been very helpful.
I mount my dirt jumper on it and practice every now and then. My buddies love playing on it when it's set up. Within minutes someone starts a timer to see who can loft a wheel the longest. 
The trainer allows me to pedal and practice switchfoot.
It helped immediately when I rode my pumptrack afterwards, made me 1 or 2 positions faster at the BMX races, and helped out on the trail too.
I still can't loft a long one out on the trail, so it's not an exact training device. But it's pretty close with some real benefits in the real world.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

Redirected from the front page: I watched the video and decided to build one. Took about an hour using scrap wood. 

Background on me: Riding for many years, amateur Enduro racer, been to the 3 day Better Rides MTB instruction, certified Fluid Ride instructor, certified Evergreen Mountain Bike instructor (IMBA), and soon to be certified PMBI instructor. I lean more towards the gravity side of riding.

Takeaways: I can do pedal wheelies all day long, but for some reason Manuals have always been a bit of a sticking point. The Manual Machine is ironing out the kinks in my technique and allowing me to get more control over my balance. I noticed that the movement to do a manual is more of a "forward - backdownward" rocking movement vs. the "down and back" I have seen in videos. I also noticed that I can get my front wheel higher for longer in real life out on the trail, with less effort. 

Downsides: It is literally like using a rowing machine: You are going to be sore. You also dont get the nuances of what to do if the bike leans to one side (turn the wheel, stick a knee out, etc). 

So, I like it. It gives me something to do when I can't go ride, and its fun. I highly recommend one to you if manualing is something you want to work on.


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## 3lakemtb (Nov 24, 2017)

Since you broke your neck, wrist, sternum and scapula to learn manuals and wheelies i wonder why one should take your advice on the matter..?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Well then, may I at least suggest they buy a how to manual first?


You mean a how to manual manual?


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

chazpat said:


> You mean a how to manual manual?


I was gonna get that, but first I had to build a contraption to turn the pages for me. Baby steps.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

3lakemtb said:


> Since you broke your neck, wrist, sternum and scapula to learn manuals and wheelies i wonder why one should take your advice on the matter..?


who are you talking to?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

noapathy said:


> I was gonna get that, but first I had to build a contraption to turn the pages for me. Baby steps.
> 
> View attachment 1214773


I recommend Manuel's Manual Manual.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

chazpat said:


> I recommend Manuel's Manual Manual.


Wouldn't it be Manuel's manual manual manual? Or is it automatic?

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I thought a manual was what you did when someone wouldn't do it for you... hand job that is 

I think wheelies are fun, but if you really wanna learn some balance, get skilled on a unicycle.


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## sethd513 (Jun 12, 2016)

I built one because I wanted to get better with my balance point with clipless pedals. Now I’m practicing much more while out riding where before I didn’t have the confidence.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

I built one. $30 and a couple hours, and I ain't no carpenter. Simpler than the one in the OP. It helped me. I got to know the basic feeling without worrying about hurting myself. Low risk experiment. Big insight for me: pulling up on bars is wrong...preloading pedals with force and getting your arse over the back wheel in a 90 degree motion is right. Different than a wheelie. Not intuitive or natural. Can I do a manual yet on the trail? Not well or for very long. But I know the feeling and what I'm supposed to do whereas before I was way off even after watching videos. It'll come. I feel like I lowered the learning curve a bit.


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## merk20 (Dec 23, 2017)

Man, it's been a year already? Guess I have been to busy mountain biking to bother. But my opion on the Manuel machine still is the same, even one year later.

Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

merk20 said:


> Man, it's been a year already? Guess I have been to busy mountain biking to bother. But my opion on the Manuel machine still is the same, even one year later.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk


I think you secretly have one.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

chazpat said:


> You mean a how to manual manual?


At least someone got that joke. :thumbsup:

Even though it took 9 months. :eekster:


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## merk20 (Dec 23, 2017)

Thustlewhumber said:


> I think you secretly have one.


I do, it's in the fire pit 

Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I built one yesterday. Cost about $6 cause i had a couple of 2x4s lying around already.

I have to say, it dramatically speeds up the manual learning process.

It went from me thinking I sort of knew how to manual but realizing all I was able to do was to pop up the front wheel for about 2 seconds, just long enough to ride off some ledges, to being able to 1 out of 4 times, hold the front wheel up indefinitely. The rest of the times it stays up for 5 seconds or so. Quite the improvement. The thing is, this improvement all occurred in about 15 minutes of total practice.

Ps. Put your bike in the lowest gear as otherwise your long cage derailler might contact the wood supporting your rear wheel.
Pss. Definitely tie the safety rope as a loop out on to jagged wood was quite painful and a bit bloody.

On edit: It doesn't really transfer to the street/ trails. I balanced on the machine multiple times but could not transfer it to the street. In fact I think I got worse!


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## Enduro SingleTracks (Oct 3, 2018)

Here is our contribution to the "manual machine debate". Hope you like it (in Spanish je je):


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

I built one for my 20in BMX. It has helped massively with finding the balance point.

Is it going to teach everything? No. Is it helpful? Yes. Is it kind of fun? Yes. 
For less then 20 dollars and maybe a couple hours building, I think it is totally worth it.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Enduro SingleTracks said:


> Here is our contribution to the "manual machine debate". Hope you like it (in Spanish je je):


Is that Manuel riding it?


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Streetdoctor said:


> Only on MTBR... ride your damn bike if you want to learn to manual.


I love the manual machine I've built. Its been used by a lot of people, a whole bunch of kids, and is the single fastest way to get riders to understand the complex relationship of rider weight distribution and bike handling. It has provided an Ahah! moment for many riders, and is a starting point for changing mountain bikers from passengers to pilots of their bikes. Unless, of course, you're as awesome as the author of the quote above.


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## Enduro SingleTracks (Oct 3, 2018)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Is that Manuel riding it?


Yeah ja ja! Manuel with the manual machine. Almost a tongue-twister -


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

You guys should get an e-manual machine and stop using those analog manual ones.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

these are great because it lets you feel the angle of the dangle w/o much consequence

knowing how steep 'feels' is huge ...but then you need to go out and start getting your ass-cracked in real riding to get good at it


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## Enduro SingleTracks (Oct 3, 2018)

127.0.0.1 said:


> knowing how steep 'feels' is huge ...but then you need to go out and start getting your ass-cracked in real riding to get good at it


Indeed! I agree that this is one of the most important learnings that you can get from the manual machine. The balance point is very high!!!


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## HAMP (Apr 3, 2012)

I almost forgot about this thread. I never did mention by bad experience on a real ride..

Rather funny.

I pretty much over built mine. I did so because of my weight. I practiced a lot with it and I felt very confident.

Where it became scary and I stopped was my fault.

I lost a lot of weight, but I still was wearing my favorite shorts, which were far to baggy. I barely tried on first attempt and of.course I didnt get any left or distance.

My second attempt with a lot more force. I gotten the wheel up, but my baggy shorts got caught the seat and it was rather terrifying. I didnt fall, but I mentally couldn't get that wheel back up. I haven't tried since then.

I've mainly used mine for storing my bike. I think I will start back to practicing.

And yes, I put away the over sized shorts.


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## Halfabrain (Jun 5, 2014)

*Rainy day SCM - new machine*

Torential rain for days.... decided to build a manual machine:









I built this with scrap wood (luckily found the 2x6x8 stashed under the house. Predrilled, countersunk, glued and clamped (will survive the atom bomb).

I have see a boatload of the videos on these and I think Mr. Tonka's (links in this thread above) is the best one. He also has good form/technique.

Here's my recommendations for a build:

1. Don't wreck your rim or derailluer for the sake of learning to manual better!

2. Do NOT build an outrigger. It is completely unnecessary if you use 2x6 base. If you start to go over sideways and can't bail, its better for the whole bike and machine to roll over so you don't warp your rim or spokes! I (almost) guarantee you will not need the additional width!

3. The rear board (vertical against the back of the tire) only needs to be 2 -3 inches above your rear axle at the most.

4. Provide as much side coverage for your tire as possible so the sideways load (hopefully not much if your technique is good) will be dispersed across as much surface area as possible. ! I used 2x6 boards at a 45 degree angle. I placed these so that I'm just clear of the rear derailleur in the manual position. Your brake rotor side will have plenty of clearance.

5. I went with a 12" tail. Don't know what the necessary length is here, but its more than zero. I bet 6" would probably be adequate.

6. Per the photo. I cut the tops of the 45 off. This was done to get the boards as high up on the wheel as possible without hitting the derailluer.

Here's what in learned in just an hour of practice (and fits with other video recommendations):

1. Keep your back straight and pull through your hips. You should be shaped like an 'L' and not like 'C'. I have seen a few videos where the rider has their back curved = failing! You should feel the muscle tension in your hips, gluts, thighs, hamstrings and not your mid/lower back. The 'down-then-back' motion sets this up.

2. This might go without saying, but its all about form... your hips must be behind the axle or you'll never make it!

3. Keep your head up just like when riding. As soon as I dropped my chin or looked down at the tire = fail.

4. Keep your arms straight.

5. Use your seat to help find the balance point. It was helpful at first to know how low I could lower my hips before I hit the tire (its much farther than I thought). After finding the balance point, I noted where my knees where in relation to the seat. I use a 150mm dropper and with the seat all the way down, my knees were at or just below the seat. This will be different for everyone depending on your bike set-up.

6. Find the spin-out point. Once I found this, it was easier to find the balance point since knew how far back I could go. Helpful for confidence!


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

I built a manual machine out of scrap wood a while back, and practiced on it a few times. It helped a little on the trail, but not a ton, but it isn't something I used enough to say I gave it an honest shot. Mostly, I just built it to use as an extra bike stand since the rack I use to hang my bikes was full. Works great for that. 

I found the manual machine helped with consistently hitting the motion to lift the front wheel with a weight shift rather than by pulling up, finding the balance point, and helped with the reflexes for covering the rear brake before looping out. 

I found a couple things that don't transfer over to the trail though. First, looping out happens a lot quicker in real life than on a manual machine since your rear wheel is in a fixed position and won't roll out from underneath you once you go past the balance point. If you're not ready for that, you might end up flat on your back.

Next thing is that on a manual machine, putting down force on your forward pedal helps lift the front wheel and will hold you up in the balance point. Once again, that's because you rear wheel is held in a fixed position. The harder a gear you put your bike in the less effect the down force on your pedals affect the balance. Put it in your easiest gear, and between a little force on the pedals and a little bit of back brake, you can hang out in the balance point all day and essentially learn nothing. 

Take your chain off completely if you want to eliminate this effect on the manual machine.


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## MP0WER (Sep 3, 2007)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> "I have no idea what I'm talking about".
> 
> Seriously? I grew up riding motocross and mountain biking. Wheelies are in my blood. I've ridden wheelies on bikes and motorcycles since the age of 7. I have the shattered wrist joint to prove how traumatic an event it is to go over backwards in a hurry, It happens in a millisecond. I don't agree with this contraption duplicating real world manuals. Giving one a false hope on such a dangerous move with serious consequences and injury being imminent is not what I'd call a learning tool. Go out and practice on your bike if doing a manual is so important. You'll learn quicker and be a lot less likely to hurt yourself. Going from this contraption to a real world manual, sorry but it's not the same. In my opinion after practicing on this contraption you would get in the real world and think you've got this very hard move down. It only takes one bad loop out to send you in a world of hurt.
> 
> No, I've never actually used one. I stated that in my very first post with photos for all to see what this thing is.


Not to resurrect an old thread to rehash an old subject, but the reason i made the manual machine video was because i didn't learn bikes at age 7. At age 7 we learn things intuitively. As you pointed out, the things we learned at age 7 are in our blood. Things like, walking, running, eating, and for some, biking. But not all mountain bikers were riding bikes at age 7. And as adults we learn new things analytically instead of intuitively. The "manual machine" allows us to learn some things that help with manuals.

For the most part, i believe it's highest and best use is to learn the muscle memory of lofting the front wheel. Outside of that, it's debatable. Second best use may be a bike stand or place to set your suspension sag. lol

Although, not many people who know how to manual have tried a manual machine, those that have tend to agree that it can be a useful training tool.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Cornfield said:


> One just needs to go to the U-toobs to see what these things are all about and what they can do for a rider. I watched the one below for a bit last night and haven't had time to look at others. All I get from the MM is that it gives you muscle memory of how to pull into a manual, which I think could be useful.


Old thread but I am just looking into learning this as a part of dealing with my midlife crises so this seems helpful.

Like MPOWER said, I never learned these things when I grew up and now things hurt more and longer, poor me ;-)






Thank you.


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## duchebhag (Mar 20, 2009)

3lakemtb said:


> Since you broke your neck, wrist, sternum and scapula to learn manuals and wheelies i wonder why one should take your advice on the matter..?


LOL
"learn the way I did and break all your bones"


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I just noticed this thread from the recent post. My neighbor has a business teaching people with motorcycles how to wheelie. He has two Triumph 1000 cc motor that he put a 3rd wheel adjustable limiter on so that the bike will not loop out. He's teaching all kinds of people how to wheelie on their own motor with this setup. 
No complaints that I know of so far.....


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