# Any lightweight/ lower power 'add-on' e-bike motors to add to a standard bike?



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm curious if they make an E-bike motor/ battery product that can be added (and removed as needed) to a standard MTB?

Thanks.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Do you mean removed *quickly*? There are tons of add-on motor kits out there, but most of them require at least 30 minutes and significant tools to install/remove.

-Walt


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

https://www.instructables.com/id/5-minute-electric-bicycle/


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Walt said:


> Do you mean removed *quickly*? There are tons of add-on motor kits out there, but most of them require at least 30 minutes and significant tools to install/remove.
> 
> -Walt


Well, anything that could be removed in an hour and didn't require permanent modifications to my bike would be acceptable.

Thx

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Turd (Jul 21, 2005)

Figure if you just wanted to commute or whatever, something like this could be quick.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks. Sounds like an integrated solution is the only thing that is feasible at this time. 
Take care. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## FZBob (Apr 14, 2008)

Here ya go... 

I regularly remove it in under 5 minutes with a hex key and a screwdriver. Three screws and a hose clamp for the motor and mount. Pull three electrical connections and un-velcro the battery bag. I leave the chain ring and throttle.

Cost me $400. Adds 5 1/2 Lb total. Up to 450 watts. It really gives a nice assist up Northern California hills, and is imperceptible on the downhills.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=96769









Of course it is DIY...  
All parts are off the shelf except the motor bracket. Does require wiring (soldering). In 10 years, if anything fails, all parts are generic. (I'm curious to see what happens in 10 years when a Levo PCB frys...)


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

That's really cool!
These guys have you beat in removal time, less than a minute. You have them beat in a lot of other categories though.

https://www.ego-kits.com/en/portfolio/doubleego/


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

LIFT-MTB or a similar simple MY1018 motor with custom mounting bracket that removes in minutes. 👍


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Maybe something like this?

https://electronwheel.com/

Never mind, it requires rim brakes....


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

FZBob said:


> Here ya go...
> 
> I regularly remove it in under 5 minutes with a hex key and a screwdriver. Three screws and a hose clamp for the motor and mount. Pull three electrical connections and un-velcro the battery bag. I leave the chain ring and throttle.
> 
> ...


This is exactly (well almost exactly) what I was wishing for too.

Turnigy D2836/8 1100KV Brushless Outrunner Motor $15.02, up to 336W

Turnigy Plush 30amp Speed Controller $14.18

Vktech Gold-plated Bullet Connector (3.5 mm 40pcs) $8.99

What battery? Does it have to be 12V to fall within the 7.4 - 14.85 V motor volt range? Or can it be compatible with a more normal Li+ 24V 250W battery?

You think an LBS that works on e-bikes would even attempt to do this for someone? I guess I can get my stepson to do it for a few $$, he has a soldering kit and builds his own computers so this shouldn't be hard for him.


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## FZBob (Apr 14, 2008)

richj8990 said:


> This is exactly (well almost exactly) what I was wishing for too.
> 
> Turnigy D2836/8 1100KV Brushless Outrunner Motor $15.02, up to 336W
> 
> ...


The bike works very well! If you are seriously interested in building something like this, then I would suggest that you skim the build thread on Endless Sphere, and ask questions there. It would also be worthwhile to follow the recipe (there are Very Good Reasons!) and Make No Substitutions on critical (most) components. That way you get to take advantage of some actual engineering and development. At least read the Bill of Materials post on page 4.

I'm sure your stepson could solder everything together and set up the speed controller. He would need a cheap heavy soldering iron to do the power connections. The motor mount would be the tricky part, as all bikes are different. I could post up some drawings over on ES, and i'm sure you could find a small machine shop that could finesse the details and attach the motor to your bike.

If you have the ability to replace a chain, replace front chain rings, and tune a derailleur, you could do the rest. Otherwise, an E-Bike shop might come in handy.

Just FYI - The motor you selected will spin the PEDALS at 500 RPM, but with no power at all...


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

FZBob said:


> The bike works very well! If you are seriously interested in building something like this, then I would suggest that you skim the build thread on Endless Sphere, and ask questions there. It would also be worthwhile to follow the recipe (there are Very Good Reasons!) and Make No Substitutions on critical (most) components. That way you get to take advantage of some actual engineering and development. At least read the Bill of Materials post on page 4.
> 
> I'm sure your stepson could solder everything together and set up the speed controller. He would need a cheap heavy soldering iron to do the power connections. The motor mount would be the tricky part, as all bikes are different. I could post up some drawings over on ES, and i'm sure you could find a small machine shop that could finesse the details and attach the motor to your bike.
> 
> ...


Yeah I realized I looked at the wrong motor soon after.

FZ, you should try to patent something like this, it has way more potential than you even realize. If you or someone else can get it to the point where the chain / motor / battery can be removed within 1-2 minutes, it would be a great alternative to a mid-drive because you remove those three components and you have a perfectly normal bike that just has a large chainring on the other side. And then riders, instead of having to shuttle with two trucks, can simply ride back up faster after they are done with a long downhill session. They ride down without the components and then slap them on at the bottom. These would sell like hotcakes because they are light, cheap, and easy to take off and put in a pack.

What I'd personally like to do (and even sell on Amazon, etc.) if I had more mechanical skills:

1. Chain guard on large chainring
2. Remote wireless throttle or push button on/off for watts, no wires from the handlebar, only from/to the battery
3. Chain that's easy to remove, with a user-friendly missing link that you push in and quickly break & put in pack
4. Cassette-based 0.5 lb LiPo battery, plugged in securely to some type of housing attached to one of the tubes. I'm calculating about 2.5 miles worth of battery uphill at 250W, is that in the ballpark? The kit could come with maybe 5-6 of these batteries that you simply plug in to the housing (kind of like printer ink) and then connect the battery wire to the motor in seconds
5. Kit bag with all components, extra batteries, motor, chain, any screwdrivers, etc. for attaching at the bottom of the mountain

If someone could make a kit like that for around $250 that weighed under 10 lbs with the extra batteries...


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## FZBob (Apr 14, 2008)

craigsj said:


> Some criticisms if this:
> 
> 
> an unprotected and unmanaged LiPo pack lacking required protective structure, yet being evangelized to the naive, terrible, unsafe
> ...


Please allow me to rebut -

"an unprotected and unmanaged LiPo pack lacking required protective structure, yet being evangelized to the naive, terrible, unsafe"
1. I did not evangelize anything to do with batteries. Batteries were just not something I covered in the ES build thread. I believe I only mentioned what battery I was using in passing...
2. Your X-ray vision is faulty. I do have the pack armored. It's in the pouch. Again, not what the build thread was about.
3. The bike has three independent battery protection systems.
4. I agree. DON'T BE UNSAFE WITH BATTERIES!!! Or anything else which contains energy - Gas Cans, Air Compressors, Garage Door Springs, Moving Cars, etc.

"less than 100 Wh, grossly inadequate for many riders, easy to be light weight when there's no battery"
1. I like a minimalist assist system. I get my exercise while avoiding overstressing my knee. My standard ride is 10 miles, 1000 feet climbing and about 1 hr 15 minutes, 3x per week. I take my non-Ebike about 1/3 of the time, when my knee is feeling good, and my ride times are similar. 
2. Wow, you make me feel like Superman! Not bad for an overweight 60 year old with a messed up knee.
3. Here's a snip from a ride I reported last year:
Went for an exploration ride Friday with a couple of friends. I had the only E-Bike . Lots of long steep (22%) loose gravel grades. 11 miles, 1700 feet of climbing. I cleared all the grades (barely), the really strong rider did not clear all of the grades, and the third rider, who is somewhat stronger than me, had a tough time. If I had been on my non E-bike, I would have had a bad day... I used 87 Watt Hours, out of 100 WH available in my new Zippy 4S 8AH pack. I carried a spare (not used) 5.8AH in the fanny pack. I'm liking this light weight setup a lot

"lack of PAS, along with advocacy for removing the throttle in favor of an on/off button! is that a joke?"
1. I certainly didn't advocate for removal of the throttle in favor of a button. The individual who did, however, made some interesting points...
2. I asked for a discussion in my ES thread re PAS vs Throttle vs other. There were many interesting viewpoints.
3. The throttle is working well for me at the moment. Before the discussion on ES, I did not feel the need for PAS. Now, I'm thinking about it.

"no means of locating the chain in the proper plane, along with use of a chain not designed to tolerate it"
1. The chain is located in the proper plane within .010".
2. "Means of location"" is the motor mount...

"no chain tensioner"
1. Tried it, don't need it. You can see the leftover mounting holes...

"lack of freewheel meaning the motor creates drag while pedaling, mitigated by how small and ineffectual the motor is"
1. the motor is actually pretty effectual, as shown by MY KNEE DOESN'T HURT!
2. "lack of freewheel" was actually the big surprise of the build. I originally built it WITH a freewheel for the reasons you give, then I tried it without a freewheel. I was actually shocked by how freely it pedaled. The motor absorbs less than 10 watts (BLDC motors spin nice!). For comparison, the bike came with a Kenda Nevegal on the back. I hated that tire, as it was very draggy. It (and other draggy tires) felt far more draggy than the motor.

"9T cog wears like cheese, as evidenced in the ES thread already"
1. Yup, 700 miles on a $7 sprocket. I'm crying in my soup...
2. I got less miles out of a very pricy Ti XTR cogset.
3. I got less miles out of an aluminum 42T rear cog.
4. Chain and 9T cog wear are on par with bike chain wear. Shock!

Hey Craig - If you are in the San Jose area, lets do a ride. Seriously. (or anyone else who is curious...) You can try out my E-Bike, and I'll take my Trance. PM me. I think you might be surprised...

Here is a ride report from someone else:

My impression of FZBob's system

Weight:
I was shocked by how light this system was. When picking up the bike it feels just like a regular mountain bike.
The bike rides and respond just like a regular mtb. I am not aware of any commercial mtb ebike that can match this in weight.

Assist:
When ridding without assist, I could not feel much resistance from the motor.
Adding motor assist by feathering the throttle felt very natural. I never felt the motor "kicking in" like some middrive systems I have tried in the past. I suspect this could be the programming or the single stage reduction.

Freewheel function: present and not present
You can freewheel just fine as the resistance from the motor is not noticeable but you cannot freewheel when the motor is on. This is something I am not used to and may be something to consider for technical mtb riders who need to have pedals in certain positions during the ride.

What about the noise: 
Noise from the motor is not noticeable at low levels of assist (I think below 100W) and become more noticeable as the assist level and RPM goes up. I think slightly more than a BOSCH mid drive but I would need to test side by side to elaborate more.
I ride a completely silent Leaf hubmotor using the PHASE runner and I find the noise of this system not bothersome.

Overall, I think this system is terrific for those looking for a lightweight and low power (250W or less ) system to add on to an existing mtb or any bike for that matter without changing the characteristics of that bike.

My request:
Please consider adding torque sensing via bottom bracket. Having both the throttle and torque sensor can make this system even better.


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## FZBob (Apr 14, 2008)

richj8990 said:


> FZ, you should try to patent something like this, it has way more potential than you even realize. If you or someone else can get it to the point where the chain / motor / battery can be removed within 1-2 minutes, it would be a great alternative to a mid-drive because you remove those three components and you have a perfectly normal bike that just has a large chainring on the other side. And then riders, instead of having to shuttle with two trucks, can simply ride back up faster after they are done with a long downhill session. They ride down without the components and then slap them on at the bottom. These would sell like hotcakes because they are light, cheap, and easy to take off and put in a pack.
> 
> What I'd personally like to do (and even sell on Amazon, etc.) if I had more mechanical skills:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the compliment! I already have sufficient patents, and don't want to hassle with it.... $10K to 30K and 1-3 years... Sounds like work...

A 1/2 lb battery will give you about 30 watt hours, so at 150 watts of assist, about 12 minutes...

By the way, you don't need to break the chain, it lifts off in a loop as soon as the motor is loosened.

I think for your use case, I would consider just leaving the components on the bike, rather than on your back, unless you can hand them off at the top of the hill...


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## FZBob (Apr 14, 2008)

Craig - you seem to have a lot of rage. You are no longer invited to come for a ride with me... Have a nice life...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I think very lightweight 100w systems are what most people actually *need* who have, like FZBob, some minor ailment that makes riding painful or difficult. That's actually quite a bit of extra power. 

600w/much heavier bikes like a Levo are a totally different beast obviously and if that's what you want (to haul ass) that's great. I think if you are looking for as much of a mountain bike-like experience as possible, limiting the wattage and weight as much as possible makes a ton of sense. 

No comment on the safety or fire issues, but I think this thread demonstrates both the potential and potential downsides of DIY and kit (ie Luna) e-bikes, which is something that I'm sure we'll see more and more of. 

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Sure, sure. My point is that the current bikes are overpowered (probably by at least 200%) if the goal is just to get folks with health problems back up to even with able bodied riders. Bikes like the Levo (as anyone who has ridden one can attest) are a VERY different experience than a conventional mountain bike. That's totally fine with me, actually. I just think they should be managed as their own entities.

-Walt


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Once again LIFT-MTB:

https://www.lift-mtb.com/accueil-faq-english/

Good quality battery cells with a controller built into the battery pack are safe, work great and cost so much less than manufacturer proprietary batteries (I have 3, never had an issue).

Put a similar motor on a Niner Jet 9 and it works great. Battery pack comes off with the Velcro of the under top tube frame bag. Motor comes off with 4 allen screws and a chain link.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Luna Cycles!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Have a much better understanding of what I need/ want.

1) I'm handy and don't mind spending an hour or so installing a kit. It will be for my wife's bike and only be used when we go to Bentonville so that she can climb with me on my analog bike.

2) But it must be activated by pedaling (not a motorcycle throttle, sheesh they aren't even trying any more!) and must feel natural, be light, etc...

3) Money isn't an issue, but the quality of the product, the weight, short cranks, etc, are all real concerns.

It appears that Rival is the only commercially available product that hits all of these points.

Thoughts?

PS. I'd personally switch over my Enduro bike to a Mondraker Crafty if they were legal on TX trails, but alas, they are not.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

I have been pondering such an idea.
My idea is to use an ASTRO motor, which requires an expensive controller/esc, but is light enough to carry and it has the power I require. However, the mechanism to hold motor in place would be totally custom.

Easiest and fastest way would be to weld onto the frame a sturdy rear rack, throw on a gear onto the spokes, like what gas bicycles do, install a gear onto motor. Then you can slip the motor onto the rear rack, engaging the chain. Be totally unbalanced with the weight of the motor on the rear rack, but you can place the battery inside the triangle. You could probably do the same with lower powered rc motors, like friction drive units, rather then chain drive.

The alternative is to hide the motor.
The Kepler Friction Drive Motor uses Turnigy SK8 6354,
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=84905&hilit=Kepler+friction+drive#p1241933

Hiding a small rear hub motor.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=104679#p1529495


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I should clarify, I'm looking for a mid-drive for proper mountain biking. Thx

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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Mid drives would be harder to easily take off and on without some work and tools. Just look at how the Cyclones/BBSHD are installed and fabricate something up.

Maybe instead of using bolts with the side plates on the bb, you can use quick releases from a wheelset. Fabricate a slide in mechanism for the motor, then hold it in place. Wing nuts and threaded rod. Problems are a lot, including how the chain is going to be secured upon each removal and installation.

Alternative to that would be to just buy a small folding bicycle to bring the entire thing in with you. I once pondered buying the Montague 26" folder.

RC motors can be used as a mid drive, might be something to search for on yahoo. 
The problem there is that the RC motors spins at such a high RPM, that you require such a large reduction gear, plus they are more noisy since they spin so high. But more compact motor to take off and on, lighter motor too. Its just the reduction gearing is the hurdle, then its the mounting mechanism.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I don't think we are on the same page. 

I want to buy the best mid- drive available and can build a bike from scratch easily so taking it on and off, is no biggie. 

What's the best system? Not interested in rigging something up. 

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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Why not just get her a complete ebike, if money is no barrier?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

rideit said:


> Why not just get her a complete ebike, if money is no barrier?


Pretty sure I'm going with the Revel. It seems to hit most of the relevent points. Clean install, solid power, quick release removal, about 9#s total, battery mounts to bottle holder, and 165mm cranks.

Sure I wish it could do a few more things but all the features I desire don't seem to be available just yet.

My wife already owns a nice high end mountain bike and the e-bike would only get used annually on bike trips to Bentonville, not enough to justify the considerable cost of an additional high end mtb.

Ps. I noticed you are from Driggs. I use to have a pal in oil field named Seth Driggs from the same town. Not sure how big the town is, maybe you know him?

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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

It’s a tiny town, he is a plumber now, I believe.
And a very good one, who shows up when he says, from everything I have heard. 
I don’t know him, though.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

rideit said:


> It's a tiny town, he is a plumber now, I believe.
> And a very good one, who shows up when he says, from everything I have heard.
> I don't know him, though.


2 degrees of separation.

Seth is a super solid guy. When oil field was booming around 2012-2015 he probably spent 2 million buying used oil field trucks from me. Always really liked that guy.

~ take care


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'm curious if they make an E-bike motor/ battery product that can be added (and removed as needed) to a standard MTB?
> 
> Thanks.


Have you seen the ebikes with Fazua engine?
The are very light and you can remove the motor and battery and use a cover instead to make it a normal bike.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks, however I'm going with at least one Revel Propulsion add-on unit. It makes more sense for the amount my wife will be able to utilize an e-bike as they are illegal on TX public trails unless motorized vehicles are specifically allowed (that's very rare). I understand that we could get away with it, however that would make us poor stewards of the trail system possibly risking access for everyone. 

Attached is a template I held up to my wife's bike to check fitment as they have other sets of mounting brackets. 

Basically this product is the best fit for me. It's affordable at $1,450. It's lightweight and power dense. It only has a 378 kwh battery but that's 18% more than a Spesh SL battery and at my wife's lower overall weight, that will last plenty long. Weight is only a 9# increase, meaning my wife's complete e-bike will weigh under 37#s but have a healthy amount of power and battery life. Nothing else on my wife's bike will need to be changed, as far as the components know, instead of a 114# novice rider, it now has a 123# rider, no functional difference for anything else. 

It has a quick release system, meaning it can become a no drag normal bicycle in 2-5 minutes once the initial install is completed. Basically it will just run a special torque sensing BB, with a matching crank set. I would never consider a system with a throttle. 

Revel has the option of 165mm cranks, which is huge for my wife. 170s for me if I'm interested. 

Revel's battery is nice too because it simply bolts in to standard water bottle mounts. Very clean solution. 

The one change I want to explore is a smaller motor. She doesn't need a 650 W motor. That's larger than the new full size Bosch. The new Spesh SL only has a 240 W motor which is closer to the power range I'd want to be in. If I can save weight and size, I'd rather have a smaller motor. Heck, maybe there is money to be saved there as well. I don't want her riding a scooter with 400% assist (really, that's the human assisting the motor, not the other way around) and approximately doubling her output sounds about right, or around 300 W assist maximum. 

Eventually new battery tech will be released and adding a new lighter, yet longer lasting battery should be as simple as making a battery purchase and plugging it in. 

The last bonus is simply that I can bolt it right on to my bike if I so desire as our bikes being the same brand, all components that fit her bike, also fit mine. 

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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Don't do it. Seriously. Maybe for a commuter bike. Never for a MTB. Just a bad idea on so many levels.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Thanks, however I'm going with at least one Revel Propulsion add-on unit. It makes more sense for the amount my wife will be able to utilize an e-bike as they are illegal on TX public trails unless motorized vehicles are specifically allowed (that's very rare). I understand that we could get away with it, however that would make us poor stewards of the trail system possibly risking access for everyone.
> 
> Attached is a template I held up to my wife's bike to check fitment as they have other sets of mounting brackets.
> 
> ...


...it wouldn't survive a week around here. It would be smashed to bits on the first ride.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Why, that motor doesn't hang lower than the normal frame on a new Yeti?
Have you see the ground clearance Mondraker's have? It's like our bikes were custom made for these add on motors. 
Anyways it's for my wife, she rides pretty casually. She is not smashing logs or anything.
And I would like to use it in Bentonville and there's no ledges there either. It's heavily groomed for the most part.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Cranks positioned the same. First photo is the Levo, then my bike with the template taped in place as it would mount.

Using the cranks to assess clearance under the bike, to my eyes the kit has better ground clearance, at least on my Foxy's, then the OEM E- bike does. It's at least comparable.

Thoughts?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Now the SB130 (and several other models), they look like they are already e- bikes.

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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

It still looks permanent
https://www.revelpropulsion.com/


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

matt4x4 said:


> It still looks permanent
> https://www.revelpropulsion.com/


Well, it's not permanent. You can always remove the specially BB and cranks but that's maybe an hour to R & R carefully. I'd just leave it installed. It's not as nice as my Ti cranks for instance but not a biggie either.

A part of the quick release bracket (not pictured as it's a new product) will remain but that's out of the way.

Motor, battery, and chain come off in less than 5 min. Your probably carrying around an extra pound of hardware in the cadence sensing BB with probably a wire coming off of it, the cheap square taper cranks, and a portion of the metal brackets that are attached to the BB. Everything else is gone. 
And there are no holes or anything.

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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

What motor did you go with? I am interested in a. Motor for my intense spider 275. I am looking at the LIFT-MTB as looks easy to take on and off. The revel looks interesting too, if it as easy to take on and off.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The Revel is the best unit currently available. But I have yet to purchase. They ate actually sold out all of ther time. Really struggling with square taper cranks honestly. 
I feel there are better ways coming soon, that incorporate your current cranks and I have some ideas on that. 

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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> The Revel is the best unit currently available. But I have yet to purchase. They ate actually sold out all of ther time. Really struggling with square taper cranks honestly.
> I feel there are better ways coming soon, that incorporate your current cranks and I have some ideas on that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Is the revel better than lift-mtb or are they about the same? The only thing I don't like about revel is you have to drill a hole in your bb, not sure about lift-mtb.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

nashwillis said:


> Is the revel better than lift-mtb or are they about the same? The only thing I don't like about revel is you have to drill a hole in your bb, not sure about lift-mtb.


Revel swapped BB models and no hole has to be drilled as the wires exit off to the side now.

I'll take a look at the lift-mtb.

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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

I am still trying to decide between the 2. The lift looks like it has more power but I can’t find much on how well it pedal assist. A throttle is the main way to power it and you have to add on the pedal assist. I don’t live where there are mountains so I think both will be plenty power for me. Can any talk to how well Or the feel of the lift mtb pedals?


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