# RV thread



## sisu (Sep 16, 2006)

WTF? The 50+ forum doesn't have an RV thread yet? I hope my entire life revolves around RV life when I retire...

First I have to convince my wife, tho. Maybe we'll start with a smallish version, like those based on the Sprinter.

Any current RVers care to post their thoughts?


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## sisu (Sep 16, 2006)

*thread. Sheesh. For some reason Tapatalk won't let me edit the title.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

RVs are goofy, you end up with a bunch of money tied up in a rapidly depreciating vehicle that has more upkeep costs than a small home, and you still have to pay to park the thing!

I bought a short/low Dodge Promaster van, it's my daily driver, we're setting it up as a gear hauler, fan, sunroof, heater, portable fridge, convertible dinnette/bed.

It replaced a truck and an Element, it gets 22/25, and with front wheel drive it's a snowmobile in the winter.

I love being able to haul tons of gear, sleep wherever we want, it's super agile and it's really fun to drive.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

^^^ Yep. Those are some of the cons but there are pros too and I know some who have been very happy with RV ownership, and a few who have lived solely and happily in their RV for many years. I've also known a few with huge 6 figure motor coaches for whom the cost was not a significant consideration.


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> RVs are goofy, you end up with a bunch of money tied up in a rapidly depreciating vehicle that has more upkeep costs than a small home, and you still have to pay to park the thing!
> 
> I bought a short/low Dodge Promaster van, it's my daily driver, we're setting it up as a gear hauler, fan, sunroof, heater, portable fridge, convertible dinnette/bed.
> 
> ...


I did exactly the same. Love the Promaster.


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## sisu (Sep 16, 2006)

I've thought about renting RVs but have heard horror stories about breakdowns. I think it would be better to buy used, get to know the vehicle inside and out and maintain it well.


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## Jing (Sep 4, 2013)

I have a full size truck with a slide in camper. I think this is a versatile setup and it gives you pretty comfortable living quarters. We aren't into the RV park thing and having the truck allows us good dirt road capability.


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

I know a guy who retired at 50 and spent years traveling around the SW mostly dry camping in his large RV, riding and building trails where ever they wanted to be. This is what you're talking about? His house in Ca has been a rental for all these years, they eventually bought another house in northern Az and spent a few years there but I hear they're spending most of their time in the RV in Utah now. It can be done if you have your financials right and you and your SO are into the nomad lifestyle. Large RVs can be bought cheap, like-new used is the way to go. He had some serious health issues pop up that were a real hassle to deal with, something to consider as well.

We're setting things up to hopefully take month long tours here and there then return to the home base. 3/4 ton truck & small 5th wheel is our thing right now but that might change before we pull the plug.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Screw the RV, they end up being an albatross around your neck. 

A Sprinter 4x4 with low range is the ticket. A simple shelf bed, portable kitchen and porta potti. That's my goal. When you aren't camping, you can carry enormous amounts of stuff. Even a short wheelbase Sprinter can carry 10' lumber and full 4x8 sheets of plywood inside and covered. You can't even do that with the stupid pickups these days, most of which have 5 or 6 foot beds. 

I'm sorry, but as the owner of an FCA vehicle, I'm wise to them, and I'm not dumping money into a Fiat van. You might save $10K on a Promaster initially, but you'll lose it in repairs and resale. That transmission is a tragedy.


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## mactweek (Oct 3, 2011)

I bought a tall lwb Ford Transit, set it up with water, cabinets, a removable bed (the bikes fit underneath) solar power and a refrig and galley. I can be fully self contained for the type of camping we like to do. I will be retired in October and my wife has 5 day weekends every other week. We are ready for long weekends and occasional multi week trips. We have taken it out a few times already and it suits us great...


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

Pretty sure the OP's "RV life" is being out for months on end. A basic DIY Sprinter conversion is going to be a big NO from the S/O for many of us. Mine requires the ability to get clean at the end of the day, a decent bed, and proper "facilities". Least I can provide for putting up with me.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

I have a travel trailer and love it. At 30 ft long it has all the amenities and comforts -- shower, microwave, fridge, real bed, air conditioning, TV and DVD, et al. If you plan on extended trips -- weeks/months at a time -- you will want the amenities. In inclement weather you spend a lot of time inside and a van conversion or pickup camper gets old real fast. 
I have solar panels on the roof, so the batteries stay charged. 60 gal fresh water tank, 2-7gal propane tanks. The pickup tow vehicle carries the bikes, a canoe, and generator. 
Joining one of the various RV memberships gets the cost down. I am currently near Bend, OR, and I am in a full hookup site (water, electric, and sewer) for $27 total for the week. Leave it parked for the day while we go do fun stuff in the pickup.
Retired, so no job commitments. We have spent more time in our trailer so far this year than time at home. Convert all your banking and bill paying to online and get a cell/wifi booster.

Downside: gas mileage while towing is nonexistent. I have to stop every 150-180 miles for a fillup. Get a credit card with cash back for gas stations.
You spend a lot more time in laundromats.


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## gravitylover (Sep 1, 2009)

Yup our plan is to sell the houses and get a nice 35-38 foot coach. I'd like to pull an enclosed trailer with a small car and all of our toys, this would also give me the opportunity to have a garage and workshop to maintain everything. We still have some time to figure out the details though because I don't even turn 50 for another 3 weeks.


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

honkinunit said:


> I'm sorry, but as the owner of an FCA vehicle, I'm wise to them, and I'm not dumping money into a Fiat van. You might save $10K on a Promaster initially, but you'll lose it in repairs and resale. That transmission is a tragedy.


If you're getting a 4x4 Sprinter you're going to pay a lot more than $10k more than for a FWD Promaster, probably like $25k more. Funny, Promaster owners are always citing the high cost of maintaining a Sprinter as a reason they didn't go that direction. Many are former Sprinter owners. YMMV.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

panchosdad said:


> If you're getting a 4x4 Sprinter you're going to pay a lot more than $10k more than for a FWD Promaster, probably like $25k more. Funny, Promaster owners are always citing the high cost of maintaining a Sprinter as a reason they didn't go that direction. Many are former Sprinter owners. YMMV.


4x4 is required, so the Sprinter or a Quigley or other conversion are the only options, but even if FWD would do it, neither a mini-van 6 speed auto nor a goofy single-disk automated manual are good ideas if you are actually going to carry a load. Do some internet research and you'll find that people who actually carry stuff with Promasters have transmission issues with either transmission. I think the Transit is a better idea if you don't need 4x4. Of course, you can get a Transit 4x4 as a conversion, but it won't be any cheaper than a 4x4 Sprinter.

The resale on a Sprinter justifies the initial cost. It is crazy how well they hold their value.

As for the RV thing, I guess if you can't deal with campgrounds, then seriously, you need to at least consider a 5th wheel or a trailer rather than an RV. Why would you want to be stuck in a campground without a way to get around? And if you tow a vehicle, the only advantage to an RV is the ability to wander around the back of the thing going down the road, right? Towing a vehicle is no more fun than towing a large trailer.

RVs are notorious for being money pits. I've known a LOT of people here in CO who went the RV route and regretted the decision, in fact, I don't know a single person who didn't end up in a trailer or 5th wheel eventually if they continued to "camp". Do the math. A co-worker swore to me a Class A pusher was a better financial decision than hotel rooms at 100/night for he and his wife to go to craft shows around the southwest. He was spending 40-60 nights a year in the thing for about five years, and put about 15,000 miles on it each year. So after five years, that was 250 nights in a hotel - $25,000 he would save, right? After five years, he was so fed up - the RV left them stranded several times, the fuel costs (this was when diesel was $3-4 a gallon) killed them, the maintenance was outrageous, and the repair costs were crazy. He had an $11,000 transmission repair once. The thing ate tires and brakes. He had a $4000 bill for suspension repair. He needed to be towed several times, and those ranged from $600-1500. Every time it broke it was days or weeks before it could be fixed. He had to fly home a couple of times and go back and pick up the RV later. That was just the chassis. The interior was a stream of electrical shorts, broken plastic, and appliances flat out failing.

He paid $105K for it and he got $35K when he sold it five years later. High mile, high use RVs have terrible resale. $70K in depreciation, plus $20K in repairs and maintenance, plus many unexpected nights in hotels/plane tickets, plus the fuel cost for 7-10MPG meant he could have bought a nice van and stayed in hotels for 250 nights at $100/night, eaten every meal in a restaurant, and come out way ahead, with less aggravation.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

RV's look nice like a boat looks nice. I'm very cautious about that. Maybe stick my toe in some day with a smaller sized used something or other and move up from there if it is working out.

For now, I have a deluxe canvas tent that is 10 x 14 with a 7 foot ceiling. I have a deluxe folding cot, a deluxe self inflating pad, and my old sleeping bag. I sleep extremely well on my cot. I've been in downpours, and stayed completely dry. Takes less than an hour to setup. Works well for camping near the trails, and I've got less than a grand invested in everything, including the cook stove and numerous other items that make camping enjoyable. I've got my wifi speaker in there connecting to my phone for music. Roughing it is not what I do.

When I'm setup, I don't envy the people around me in their rv's.

Here's my tent a couple months ago on a mountain biking trip.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

sisu said:


> *thread. Sheesh. For some reason tapatalk won't let me edit the title.
> 
> Sent from my iphone using tapatalk


fify.


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

I love the range of options here. Whatever floats your boat.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

panchosdad said:


> I love the range of options here. Whatever floats your boat.


Go to a couple of RV shows and look around. Then you can get familiar with all the different types, floorplan, options,etc.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Ladmo said:


> RV's look nice like a boat looks nice. I'm very cautious about that. Maybe stick my toe in some day with a smaller sized used something or other and move up from there if it is working out.
> 
> For now, I have a deluxe canvas tent that is 10 x 14 with a 7 foot ceiling. I have a deluxe folding cot, a deluxe self inflating pad, and my old sleeping bag. I sleep extremely well on my cot. I've been in downpours, and stayed completely dry. Takes less than an hour to setup. Works well for camping near the trails, and I've got less than a grand invested in everything, including the cook stove and numerous other items that make camping enjoyable. I've got my wifi speaker in there connecting to my phone for music. Roughing it is not what I do.
> 
> ...


This ^^^^

Our REI Base Camp 6 has logged more nights than we can count, approaching 100 at this point.

I also once spent two weeks in our 6x12 enclosed utility trailer. It was mid-May at 7000 feet and it was below freezing at night, with snow one night, too. I camped at a state park that had electric hookups, and slept on a cot in the trailer with a little electric heater running when necessary.

You can google up a lot of utility trailer camper conversions that are quite nice.

I'll be the first to admit that camping in very hot/humid conditions without A/C is something you have to get used to. If you have an electric hookup, a big ass electric fan or one of those portable swamp coolers can help. If you don't have an electric hookup, there are battery powered fans called O2Cool that can save you.


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## ilanarama (May 20, 2010)

We used to have an RV. Long story: we sold everything for a midlife crisis and bought a sailboat, spent 3.5 years on the boat, then came back to the real world. We bought a small used RV to get us and our stuff around the country to visit friends and family and and to live in while we figured out where we wanted to live.

After the solid quality of the boat, the RV - lightweight for fuel mileage reasons - felt like a rickety piece of junk. (Well, okay, it was a cheap model.) But worse was that - before we bought the sailboat, we used to have a VW Westfalia Synchro. Not having 4WD and low clearance meant we couldn't just pull off onto forest service roads and hide out. We couldn't get to the interesting trailheads we used to love.

We eventually decided to move back to Colorado, bought a house, sold the RV, and eventually sold the boat. At which point we bought a Sportsmobile. It's like the old Westfailure on steroids - it's a little longer, a little wider, and we can actually go highway speeds over highway passes. Plus it gets way better mileage than the RV ever did, and has high clearance, 4WD, and granny gear.









No toilet, no shower - but we have a sunshower rig we use, and a set-up for wag bags. Some friends of ours installed a composting toilet in their van and we're thinking about that. I wouldn't want to live in it full-time for more than a month or two, but we're not looking to do that anyway.


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

A couple photos of the van. Built a rack that attaches to the door so you can still open the door with the bikes on.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

panchosdad said:


> If you're getting a 4x4 Sprinter you're going to pay a lot more than $10k more than for a FWD Promaster, probably like $25k more. Funny, Promaster owners are always citing the high cost of maintaining a Sprinter as a reason they didn't go that direction. Many are former Sprinter owners. YMMV.


That would be moi 

MB started the big euro van trend in the US, but the europeans have been wise to these vans for decades.

I had a Sprinter 118, it was a fine vehicle, but it had wimpy sheet metal (rust is a big problem with MB), also the rear wheel drive is ****e in slippery conditions.

The Promaster (Fiat Ducato) is the second most popular big van in Europe, second to the Ford Transit. I love my Promaster, the diesel engine and auto manual tranny are amazing, but the fwd is darn near as good as awd, but half the cost. I use my van as a daily driver, for hauling, and for construction. It has great ground clearance, did the drive out to Gooseberry without a problem. I get 25mpg 

I know the OP was talking about extended stay RVing, but that lifestyle is very different from what most people do with their RVs.

I like my house, there's nothing as fine as having a real bed, your bed, and a nice big shower with a rain can 

We take the van on trips, crash in ut when we don't wantbto fuss with a hotel, most of the time we eat out, get the occassional hotel to cool off and clean up.

I greatly dislike campgrounds, dry camping is my intetest, and for that you just need shade, a bed, and food.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

panchosdad said:


> A couple photos of the van. Built a rack that attaches to the door so you can still open the door with the bikes on.
> 
> View attachment 1088216
> View attachment 1088217


You should drop that rear suspension, it'll reduce load height and smooth out the ride , send me a pm if interested in how to or check out the Promaster forum.


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

If I quit working I'd consider it, but right now I need the towing capacity.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

My bike is my RV.


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

What kind of mileage do the ProMasters get?


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

azjeff said:


> What kind of mileage do the ProMasters get?


Mines a gas engine, 18-20. Diesels are more like 22-25 I think.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Travel trailer and my 3/4 ton Suburban work perfect for us. I do wish the 'burb was available with the Duramax though.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

azjeff said:


> What kind of mileage do the ProMasters get?


24-25mpg in my TD, 4k load rated, 5k tow rated, carries 4 x 8 sheets of plywood with room to spare, 74" interior width so you can sleep crossways, fwd works excellent in the snow, turn radius that puts a CJ to shame.

There's just something so cool about going for a ride, and having your campsite ready no matter when and how you return. My wife often naps or reads while I ride, she loves the big van 

Best vehicle I've ever owned....and I've had a few.

Edit: 27mpg on my last tank, just gets better with time, got 20k on odometer now.


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## Mtroadie (Jul 27, 2010)

This is my mountain bike race/ride home away from home. A 15' ParkLiner with full head, cooktop, A/C, furnace, etc. it's suitable for boondocking or full hookup cush.


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## BR46 (Nov 15, 2015)

I picked up a used class c and love it. Have not been staying at camp grounds but mostly boondocking where ever we can. 
I built a bike rack for the back so I can take along all 4 bikes and still pull my motorcycle trailer.


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## MTB Dad (Sep 22, 2012)

Pulled a small toy hauler (24ft)we bought new in 2007 all over the western states. It was an inexpensive Carson we paid $15k for and never had a single problem with it. We did dirt bike but used it more for biking. We dry camped and used parks and loved it. Being a smaller size we pretty much could go anywhere with it. My son raced a lot, all over CA, OR and Idaho for Nationals and the trailer was fantastic for it. Nothing better then staying right at or near the race for pre riding and hanging out.
Sold it last Nov. to a coworker of my brother for $7k. Probably could have gotten more but we were happy. Plan is to buy a nicer all season travel trailer,again not a big one.


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## BeanMan (Jul 6, 2006)

We love our pickup truck with a slide in camper. We don't camp in campgrounds and since we live in western Colorado we are close to lots of great camping and riding all over the southwest. It works great for us and I don't have pack up a wet tent.


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

We have a Chevy 6.6l duramax that carries either my 25 year old, recently refurbished, 4 wheel poptop camper or a camper shell. We use the shell when we tow our 1995 Kit Companion 20' travel trailer that I bought when I retired.

We use the trailer for campground trips when we stay in only a few places for a week or so at a time like Waldo Lake in Oregon or Lassen Park. That way, we have a powerful and fuel efficient pickup with a shell to hide stuff that we can drive to trailheads, the grocery store, etc. I also park the trailer at the Mt. Shasta KOA in the spring for tele in the morning and mtb in the afternoon. Repeat for a month or so!

We use the slide in pop top camper much more for road trips. In 25 years, I've spent over 3 years of nights in this camper skiing, paddling, and of course mountain biking. On the big 4wd truck, the poptop slide in can get many places that the sprinter, the promaster, etc will not ever get to, never mind return from. We'll park next to the guy driving the SportsMobile at the end of the road.

If you're full timing, then by all means get a big coach or a big fifth wheel. Otherwise, your huge behemoth will be a nightmare on the road. Try parking one in any city in the US; try a restaurant parking lot, a shopping center, a busy gas station. Try camping in the backcounty or going to one of those more remote forest service campgrounds. Forget Chloride city or titus canyon or 95% of anza borrego state park.

If you get a motor home, go small and go Mercedes diesel sprinter. Most van based and cheap coaches are a huge mass of poorly assembled 2 x 3's and particle board on an overstressed chassis. The inside will still look good when the engine and transmission wear out.

A pickup and a trailer is a better option. Again, keep it smaller than the ones RV guy wants you to buy. A humpbacked fifth wheel is not a good option if your at all interested in real boondocking. I've watched one get stuck under a big limb on a big oak tree. That RV needed some serious roof work! I've also seen one stuck in the narrow end of a shopping center. Everything he did made it worse!

Another advantage of a tow behind vs a fifth wheel is that you can put a shell on the truck. Then, you can carry your bikes, generator, etc without posting an armed guard 24 7.


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## MTB Dad (Sep 22, 2012)

telemike- your exactly correct and I shared your same line of thought with many people over the years. Always go with the smallest TT you'll be comfortable in...The bigger the trailer the harder to get in and out of places. The small toy hauler I owned we pulled all over. I had ordered it with a beefier suspension and it went on several offroad camping trips. I pulled it with and still have our 4x4 P/U. I plan on a little bigger TT next as I don't see as many offroad trips in our future but whatever we buy it'll be under 30'.


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## mrcyrus16 (Dec 31, 2011)

Been camping most of my life, luckily my wife enjoys it just as much as I do. We started camping in the typical Coleman tent, got tired of having wet bedding/clothes during the monsoon rains here in AZ. Bought a 1966 Stevens M-416 military trailer, modded it to accommodate a RTT and a few other items...








Sold that and went to this...








and this year we purchased this baby for longer, further away trips...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Wife and I will be renting a teardrop trailer in a little over a week for a mtb festival.

We're taking that opportunity to get a feel for the options we'd want for our own, and have one custom built. We're renting from the actual builder, who's willing/able to do a LOT of custom work.

We like keeping things small/simple, and the teardrop concept appeals to us. The trailer itself is mostly just a warm/dry place to sleep, and to carry the stuff that usually fills the Subaru. And that's really all we want at this point.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

A place to nap and get out of the weather

The Scamp 13, it was our favorite.



Harold said:


> Wife and I will be renting a teardrop trailer in a little over a week for a mtb festival.
> 
> We're taking that opportunity to get a feel for the options we'd want for our own, and have one custom built. We're renting from the actual builder, who's willing/able to do a LOT of custom work.
> 
> We like keeping things small/simple, and the teardrop concept appeals to us. The trailer itself is mostly just a warm/dry place to sleep, and to carry the stuff that usually fills the Subaru. And that's really all we want at this point.


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## BADDANDY (Feb 20, 2012)

I've had either a truck n camper/truck n shell/truck n travel trailer my whole adult life until 4 years ago.
Last rig was a truck and camper for 15 years.
Then the Jeep and M101 trailer 1 year.
Now the Jeep and tent trailer for the last 2 years, and also the Sprinter this past 6 months.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

This one is what the wife and I are renting and considering having built:

Hiker Trailer -

Our rental will be the 5x10. It's small enough I could even pull it behind my Honda Fit.

Major reason we're looking at these is because of the two spots in the country the company builds 'em, one of them is right in town, so it's maybe a 30min drive to pick it up.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

My wife wants to do a big month-long cross-country trip in an RV next summer. We have a 9 year old son, so there will be 3 of us. We don't own an RV and are still researching options.

We were thinking of renting an RV, but the rental would be so expensive for a month that I was thinking I could buy a used RV, use it for the big trip and maybe a few other shorter trips, then I could sell it for close to what I paid for it and it might cost less than a rental. Plus, it would be a nicer RV with more amenities than a rental unit.

A priority for my wife is having a comfortable place to hang out with the kid in the back of the RV while the other person drives, so this rules out travel trailers.

I like the idea of something like a Class B that is easier to drive and park than a big RV, but most have the little combo toilet/shower and limited sleeping and hanging out space. I think the ideal for us would be something with an over-the-cab bunk plus a bed in the back, which generally puts us in a Class C RV. There are some Class B-Plus RVs that would probably be okay, but the Mercedes Sprinter chassis units are super expensive, and even the Ford and Dodge based ones are pretty pricey.

I welcome any thoughts and advice.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I went back and forth on RV versus trailer and finally decided the best bet for us was a trailer. I can unhook my trailer use the Suburban for day trips. WAY easier than breaking camp. Some people like to tow a car behind their RV and that's an option, as well. Either way, you'll be relegated to trailering speeds in states where they're enforced.


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## Chuck the Walla (Jan 22, 2004)

Here's what my wife and I came up with. We've had a pop up trailer for 20 years while we were raising kids, and schlepped it all over the west. Now, since its just us and the dog, I wanted an easier setup and take down option. This i don't even have to unhook from the truck. Tow vehicle is a little underpowered but that will change in the next year or so when i upgrade my truck. We are very happy with it, after using it once. My son and I are taking it to Indio for Desert Trip next week since there are no motel rooms to be had. Its kind of small to be living out of for a long period of time, but we plan to spend a week or two at a time on the North Rim of the GC, Durango, and who knows where?


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## DudeDowne (Jun 18, 2012)

Great thread! I have been itching to change out my current 30' travel trailer. With the wife and kids I need really need a wet bath. After two years I have come to loath campgrounds and want to do more boondocks style stuff. I am currently liking the Littleguy [email protected] Max S Outback Edition. With the add on side tent/screen room I think it would work great for my needs. 

Anyone have experience with this one? Real reviews seems sparse on the Interweb.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## MichaelInOr (Aug 16, 2016)

I had a 27' trailer with a pop out that I pulled behind my 25' crew cab Duramax. It was great for a trip to Yellowstone but I sold it shortly afterwards because is was just too long for the good (non-hookup) camping spots around here.

If I were to do a trailer again I would definitely get a Toy hauler even though I am not into motor sports. A toy hauler would be a whole lot less work carting bikes, kayaks, sups etc. Most toy haulers have a generator or a generator compartment for dry camping. Most trailers I have seen do not. The toy haulers with dual drop down queen beds look like a great option. Lots of sleeping room, one of the queens becomes sofa during the day and tons of cargo room while moving! I also really like having our bikes and stuff inside instead of flapping in the wind and getting encrusted with road grime during nasty weather or caked with dust during the summer.

I have been looking at slide in campers for my Duramax which has an 8' bed. I think I am going to prefer a camper to a trailer for the type of camping we like to do. I figure I will pull a utility trailer setup for toys (Bicycles, Kayaks, paddleboards, etc.). I might have to figure out some type of hitch mount platform bike carrier for day trips. I think this setup will also work nice for XC ski day trips... warm dry change of clothes and hot chocolate!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

jabrabu said:


> My wife wants to do a big month-long cross-country trip in an RV next summer. We have a 9 year old son, so there will be 3 of us. We don't own an RV and are still researching options.
> 
> We were thinking of renting an RV, but the rental would be so expensive for a month that I was thinking I could buy a used RV, use it for the big trip and maybe a few other shorter trips, then I could sell it for close to what I paid for it and it might cost less than a rental. Plus, it would be a nicer RV with more amenities than a rental unit.
> 
> ...


A month is not as long as you think. Between the hassle of finding, buying, maintaining, and storing an RV, there is the reality that your wife will ultimately want to stay in hotels at least a few times a week.

Also, one month of staying places, not a month of driving, so there will be a lot more parked time to enjoy a homey trailer. You should not be up and moving around in an RV while it's on the road, not safe, esp in an RV which have terrible crash protection.

If you have a small truck or minivan, that would be plenty for towing a small trailer, which is all you need for a family of three. A Scamp or similar, get one used, keep it until you have the need more trailer or until you get tired of looking at it sit unused.

The money you save in gas, maintenance, and headaches can be spent on hotel rooms, fine dining, and spa treatments for your wife.

My wife agrees with the above statement


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> A month is not as long as you think. Between the hassle of finding, buying, maintaining, and storing an RV, there is the reality that your wife will ultimately want to stay in hotels at least a few times a week.
> 
> Also, one month of staying places, not a month of driving, so there will be a lot more parked time to enjoy a homey trailer. You should not be up and moving around in an RV while it's on the road, not safe, esp in an RV which have terrible crash protection.
> 
> ...


My wife is actually the one who is pushing the RV thing. I would prefer to drive our minivan and stay in hotels since an RV would be a hassle to maneuver and park, and may not even be allowed on certain national park roads. In her mind, the big advantage is being able to hang out in the back during the driving and use a computer, watch movies, play games with our son, take a nap, etc. For her, it's more about the comfort during the driving than the camping/sleeping. This rules out the travel trailer option.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

My wife wants me to build one of these:









https://books.google.com/books?id=B...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

andytiedye said:


> My wife wants me to build one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's pretty funny. You see all kinds if homebuilt campers in Moab. My favorites look like tiny houses built in the back of pickup beds.

I'd prefer being a little more under the radar, like the cargo van that looks like a cargo van on the outside, but which is fully decked out on the inside.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

jabrabu said:


> My wife is actually the one who is pushing the RV thing. I would prefer to drive our minivan and stay in hotels since an RV would be a hassle to maneuver and park, and may not even be allowed on certain national park roads. In her mind, the big advantage is being able to hang out in the back during the driving and use a computer, watch movies, play games with our son, take a nap, etc. For her, it's more about the comfort during the driving than the camping/sleeping. This rules out the travel trailer option.


Maybe you could set up a van conversion as your tow vehicle? It would be easy enough to set the back up comfortable for your wife and kids and get the towing package to handle a travel trailer too...


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

We've done two cross-country trips in an Astro van with a Coleman tent trailer. My wife and I and our two sons did one in '98 and another one in '01. These are the memories that last a lifetime. My sons are now 26 and 28 and still talk about the things we did on those two trips. We planned an approximate route and then gave them an atlas and a National Parks guide and said that virtually everything along the route was fair game. 

When they returned to school at summer's end, they had some great stories for "What I did on my summer vacation". In fact, we got a call from my youngest son's teacher, she was concerned about him exaggerating his summer activities.

Great times and great memories!


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## Jake21 (Nov 25, 2006)

Been full timing in a 40 foot motorhome for 4 years now. Love the lifestyle. I carry a hardtail, FS, cross and road bike off the back. We get to ride in some great places and there are so many more on the list. I love Tsali in the Fall, Moab in the Spring, CB in the Summer, and currently in So Cal. We have met many full timers. Mostly older and retired, but some younger families with kids. Not a lot of serious bikers. Happy hour starts pretty early in the RV world. Depreciating asset? Of course. Life is a depreciating asset. I dont know why so many people focus so hard on that.

Now heading out to do wind sprints in San Diego.


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## binrat (May 25, 2005)

After many, many years of tent / bivy bag camping I have persuaded the better half we should get off of the ground. So we went with this, which was ok for dry nights.







After a very wet holidays to the Yukon this past August she went and bought something bigger. We have a choice of trucks to pull it with so now we can camp in the Canadian Rockies in comfort.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jake21 said:


> Been full timing in a 40 foot motorhome for 4 years now. Love the lifestyle. I carry a hardtail, FS, cross and road bike off the back. We get to ride in some great places and there are so many more on the list. I love Tsali in the Fall, Moab in the Spring, CB in the Summer, and currently in So Cal. We have met many full timers. Mostly older and retired, but some younger families with kids. Not a lot of serious bikers. Happy hour starts pretty early in the RV world. Depreciating asset? Of course. Life is a depreciating asset. I dont know why so many people focus so hard on that.
> 
> Now heading out to do wind sprints in San Diego.


Biggest detractor to that full time RV lifestyle is work. Gotta have income that is compatible with a mobile lifestyle.

I am getting into mtb coaching and guiding, which is compatible. My minor 2nd income source of cartography can also be handled out of an rv to a degree (but the power needs of the robust computing power that requires are no joke). But my wife is a veterinarian, which requires state licenses and such. Her job, not so much. Lots of other people have incompatible income sources.

Doing the RV thing full time after retirement is definitely attractive, though.


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## Jake21 (Nov 25, 2006)

If you are going to full time after retirement, better start binge drinking now just to prepare. These old farts out here make my college partying days look like kindergarten.



Harold said:


> Biggest detractor to that full time RV lifestyle is work. Gotta have income that is compatible with a mobile lifestyle.
> 
> I am getting into mtb coaching and guiding, which is compatible. My minor 2nd income source of cartography can also be handled out of an rv to a degree (but the power needs of the robust computing power that requires are no joke). But my wife is a veterinarian, which requires state licenses and such. Her job, not so much. Lots of other people have incompatible income sources.
> 
> Doing the RV thing full time after retirement is definitely attractive, though.


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## MTB Dad (Sep 22, 2012)

Maybe not full time but very much interested in several weeks/months per year. Retired earlier this year and working a fun (bike job) a couple days a week. Pension is solid and will hold us fine, especially once my youngest heads to college in June. Been looking at trailers a long while, we had a toy hauler for 8 yrs and used it for biking. I have so many areas on my list, can't wait!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jake21 said:


> If you are going to full time after retirement, better start binge drinking now just to prepare. These old farts out here make my college partying days look like kindergarten.


I have some friends who RV part time (big mtb destinations and LOTS of beer destinations) and they definitely resemble that statement. They are approaching retirement and I think they do want to full time when they get there.

One thing I have learned from hanging out with them is to look like I am drinking hard without actually drinking that hard. Fake it till you make it, right?


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## R3D24 (Jan 26, 2016)

*New Set Up*

Hitting the roads in our new set up. Well worth the expense for the added comfort and convenience as compared to the tent.


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## MTB Dad (Sep 22, 2012)

Sweet set up R3D4!

Been focused on a ORV Timber Ridge trailer for a couple years now. I like how they are put together. Not sure we will stay in our home or sell and move elsewhere now that we are technically retired. We do really enjoy RVing and we have the time. I figure we could move our home base and save quite a bit and we'd have the RV to escape whenever we like.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

I can't get away with RV life or van life yet. So I'm going with Roof Top Tent life and get my butt off the ground. 

Got a Tacoma and had a custom rack built to accommodate the tent and the bikes on the tailgate.


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

I just don't get the roof top tent appeal. How is it different from just a tent on the ground? Isn't a pain to have to breakdown every time you want to move the truck? Wouldn't just leaving the tent as a basecamp be simpler?


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## Boomchakabowwow (Sep 8, 2015)

panchosdad said:


> I just don't get the roof top tent appeal. How is it different from just a tent on the ground? Isn't a pain to have to breakdown every time you want to move the truck? Wouldn't just leaving the tent as a basecamp be simpler?


i have always agreed with this. when i camp near my truck, i use a big 6 person tent wtih a cot in it. super comfy, and i can stand up to pull on my hunting pants.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

Boomchakabowwow said:


> i have always agreed with this. when i camp near my truck, i use a big 6 person tent wtih a cot in it. super comfy, and i can stand up to pull on my hunting pants.


I have a similar campsite setup. Large canvas tent, deluxe cot, plenty of room even for my recliner lounger if I want to bring it in. Add in my wireless speaker playing music from my phone and there is nothing about this picture that resembles roughing it. I bring my bike inside over night for piece of mind and still plenty of room left over. No crawling around or getting dressed laying down.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

panchosdad said:


> I just don't get the roof top tent appeal. How is it different from just a tent on the ground? Isn't a pain to have to breakdown every time you want to move the truck? Wouldn't just leaving the tent as a basecamp be simpler?


The way I understand them, they're popular in the overlander crowd. Where you're likely to be moving camp fairly regularly. At least the ones I've seen vids of, they look a little less complicated than freestanding tents to setup/takedown. They also look to be nice for adding capacity to a teardrop type trailer. Speaking of which, putting a RTT on a burly teardrop or otherwise offroad trailer gets you an overland setup you can detach from your Jeep/truck.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Better get some jackstands under that first rig, otherwise they're gonna get a suprise!

Rooftop rigs are just tents, I'd sooner have a tow behind.

Vans are da bomb!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Better get some jackstands under that first rig, otherwise they're gonna get a suprise!
> 
> Rooftop rigs are just tents, I'd sooner have a tow behind.
> 
> Vans are da bomb!


Most of the non offroad teardrops do not come with jack stands. Mine will not, but I will be getting some leveling stands separately in case I wind up with a campsite on a slope somewhere. One of my favorite local parks has some sites with pretty steep grades. They can cause some problems for people with long travel trailers.

I suspect the pic I shared is just a marketing shot.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Great thread. I am inching toward retirement and am considering lots of options. I currently have a Eurovan Weekender Westfalia (& formerly owned an '84 Westy full camper). It is an awesome rig and being able to set-up or take down the top in under a minute without stepping outside is pretty killer. Downside is low clearance, FWD and lousy winter performance, plus lack of kitchen facilities. So in winter it goes in the garage and a 1st gen. Tacoma takes over for our salt-encrusted roads. 

One of those microtrailers is super appealing for extended trips. Thanks for that link, Nate. However trailers can be a PITA and I really like the simplicity of one self-contained rig. Previously rented Cruise America campers (25' length on a Ford E350 chassis) on some family trips but the kids are grown up and only need to accommodate 2 adults and bikes. A front receiver hitch gives options for bike hauling and ideally a small dual sport moto would be pretty handy.

A smaller 4x4 Sprinter has a lot of appeal but i can appreciate the maintenance and repair cost issues. Sportsmobiles are a solid option too. Nice to have so many sweet options (1st world problems),


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I responded previously about our trips with a pop up, but never updated with our current set up.

In August of '14 we picked up a near pristine '09 24' Cougar. I've already towed it to Moab and to Oregon and we use it for weekend excursions more locally. So far, it's been trouble free and we love it!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Let's talk van conversions and campers. A tow behind is out of the question for us as we tow a flatbed rafting trailer. We haven't started looking yet, just in the dreaming/beginning research stages.
Vans - Sportsmobile, Sprinter, Promaster, travato.... what's the big deal with Sprinter? I hear that these names a lot. 
Pre built or build your own?
4x4 or not?

Campers... How do ya'll like the low profiel ones that pop up?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

formica said:


> Let's talk van conversions and campers. A tow behind is out of the question for us as we tow a flatbed rafting trailer. We haven't started looking yet, just in the dreaming/beginning research stages.
> Vans - Sportsmobile, Sprinter, Promaster, travato.... what's the big deal with Sprinter? I hear that these names a lot.
> Pre built or build your own?
> 4x4 or not?
> ...


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...4.html&usg=AFQjCNHpwxbMAcrxGz0rKiqxrY1trtJ6LQ


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

doh, maybe that's the thread I couldn't find earlier, thanks. I had no idea until today that there was a car forum.


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## High Desert (May 22, 2017)

Pros and cons to each position here when you start talking about RV's, tents, slide ins, etc. Biggest thing, I think you have to sort out first is what kind of camping do you want to do? Then how many people, bikes, etc. Of course there is also the budget. We have gone the RV route for the past 30 years: tents (not an RV), tent trailer, slide in, travel trailer, 5th wheel (4X) and now a class C motorhome. We do not like RV parks, crowded areas on concrete, and prefer boon docking on BLM lands to national forests. Biggest problem we encountered with BLM and NF campsites is what size RV you can fit in it. Most of these sites, 25 or 26 feet is about the max. with out 24 foot Mercedes Sprinter MH, piece of cake. Just have to have somewhat decent road to get in and out. I have seen lot of people lately taking the Sprinter van and making conversions on them for camping. Some have been pretty slick and others, well.....The smaller class C's are easy to drive, gets around town and food center parking lots with with ease, as compared to TT's or 5th wheels. Like buying a really nice bike, you need to sort through priorities and affordability. None of these options discussed are a bad idea.


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## Jing (Sep 4, 2013)

Formica, We have had two different Pop Up Campers and loved them both, our last one is this picture. It is an 8' model and is really very spacious. Ours had an outside shower with hot water but no bathroom. This model is about 1400# which was not a problem for our truck but could be a consideration for a smaller truck. It has a cooktop, propane fridge, heater, queen size bed and plenty of storage.

Our style of camping is never in an RV Park, sometimes in a FS campground, but mostly off a dirt road in the forest. The Pop Up works perfectly for this as it is small and light enough for extensive dirt road driving.

If you already have a truck capable of holding a camper I would suggest looking into this option. If you are starting from scratch maybe a van conversion makes sense. For my lifestyle a truck is mandatory so a slide in camper works well for us.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

thanks


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

formica said:


> Let's talk van conversions and campers. A tow behind is out of the question for us as we tow a flatbed rafting trailer. We haven't started looking yet, just in the dreaming/beginning research stages.
> Vans - Sportsmobile, Sprinter, Promaster, travato.... what's the big deal with Sprinter? I hear that these names a lot.
> Pre built or build your own?
> 4x4 or not?
> ...


The Pro master is amazing, fwd with all terrain tires and you're good for all but the serious off road excursions. I've got 40k on mine, been out and back to Gooseberry and never scraped a rock.

The Sprinter 4 x 4 is quite capable "for a big arse unibody van", but it's not an off road excursion vehicle by any stretch. It's also a large van, only available as a long wheelbase tall.

It's important to decide on must haves, want to haves, and don't really need.

Very few people "Boony bash" in their very expensive RV, so buying AWD might fall under the don't really need column. AWD costs more up front, mpg suffers, and it costs more to maintain.

I live in the central Cascades, drive on ice and snow four months out of the year, drive up to the ski resort multiple times a week, drive up into the Methow, etc... and I don't have studs or chain.

FWD is the ticket. Diesel, averaging 25mpg, can get as much as 28mpg if I keep my foot out of the floor


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

thx that is what I'm looking for


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

I am not 50 yet (1 month from 43), but I did just get an RV to use as basecamp for Mtn biking rides, 24 hr races, XC races and general camping.

I had two requirements. 1) Towable with my existing car 2) fit in my garage. My Aliner checks off both.

Box is 12feet long, 15ft with tongue, 1750lbs dry, Has water/heat, 3 way fridge, A/C, outside shower. rear sofa converts to bed and front dinette that turns to bed.

I considered a driveable RV (like van or truck camper) and the issue that if use the RV as "basecamp" I have to move camp every time I drive to a TH. Last year I used campground just outside Durango as base and drove each day to different TH's. With this set-up I can unhook and drive vs taking the RV every time. Of course a trailer is harder to maneuver in places.

Here is my first trip pictures. I used a NF Campground, but will also use dispersed camping when possible. I do have some RV park trip booked mostly because wanted to "work" from the RV using internet and bridging a longer trip.

Joe's Biking Adventures and other Ramblings


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

JoePAz said:


> I am not 50 yet (1 month from 43), but I did just get an RV to use as basecamp for Mtn biking rides, 24 hr races, XC races and general camping.
> 
> I had two requirements. 1) Towable with my existing car 2) fit in my garage. My Aliner checks off both.
> 
> ...


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

SteveF said:


> I'm thinking about a pop-up, but one of the concerns I have about the tent sided option is that it doesn't offer any sound blocking advantage over a tent. I hate having noisy neighbors in camp but it happens. Hos does the A-liner do in this respect? I'd imagine it's quieter than a tent camper, not as quiet as a travel trailer? Thanks...


Well the soft dormers at a tent so no sound proofing at all. However I don't have raise them up. Most models don't come with them anyway. I chose them for added space and a more open feel. Some models have hardside dormers. These use hard walls just like the rest of the Aframe. Those don't have the same open fee, but should do better on sound reduction. Really everything is a compromise so you just have to decide what is more critical for you.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

JoePAz said:


> Well the soft dormers at a tent so no sound proofing at all. However I don't have raise them up. Most models don't come with them anyway. I chose them for added space and a more open feel. Some models have hardside dormers. These use hard walls just like the rest of the Aframe. Those don't have the same open fee, but should do better on sound reduction. Really everything is a compromise so you just have to decide what is more critical for you.


Ah, I don't know why I assumed the dormers were knock-down panels-soft panels there would make at least as much sense. Thanks for the feedback, and enjoy your camper! I'm still not sure what way I'll go but I'm not in a huge hurry...


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## YJ Bill (Jul 16, 2013)

RV = Repair Vehicle. That said we spend 3 or 4 months a year in our Class C Motorhome.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

We had a pop up, they are a serious pain in the backside, it takes time and effort to put one up and take one down, try doing that in a rain or wind storm and it's really exciting! Popups y are the most breathable system, but they also got hotter and colder than an enclosed camper/van.

Folding campers in general are prone to problems, the A Liner is no exception, just think about the moving parts, stress, and the idea that the assembly is bouncing down the highway at 70 mph for hours on end, any joint or fastener will fatigure, plumbing and electrical will fail, them RV's are not that durable.

We had the most enjoyment out of a Scamp 13', lightweight, easy to maneuver, ready to use, just open the door, not heavy, not expensive, weather proof.

I drive a Promaster van that I've converted for sleeping, it's not an RV as I use it as a daily driver and for hauling building materials, dogs, etc... I love my van, but it would be nice to have a camper we can park and come back too, but at this point the van serves my needs.

As to all those extras: shower, AC, water, heat... I think you need to pay attention to what you really need. We never cook in our campers, it's too hot and it makes them smell. We never stay places where there isn't a shower or a lake/river to use for bathing. 3 way fridges are fine, but the pilots often blow out and 110 is rarely available unless you're in a developed park.

Reality is this: You will cook/eat out side if you don't go out to eat. You will not shower often, face it, mountain bikers are grubby. For keeping things cool a 12v fridge or icebox is ideal. In terms of heat, nothing works as well as a sleeping bag or a nice down blanket. If it's that cold and nasty, odds are you will be at home or in a hotel. Water, propane, and electrical systems are a weak link, they fail, they get gunky due to non use, and they require maintenance.

A fiberglass egg with a nice full or queen sized bed, 12v fridge, propane heater if you must, storage for gear. Skip the water system, toilet, and cooking. Get a port-a-pot, some water jugs, a folding table and chairs, and a coleman stove. Spend your money on a solar system and a good 12v battery set up.

If you must have 110, buy a really quiet, high end generator, use it to run AC if you dry camp in hot places and to charge the batteries. YOU DO NOT NEED A MICROWAVE!

Here's my top choice for a new lightweight camper: The 17 Foot Escape

The idea behind fiberglass is durability, fixability, insulation, and lightweight. The Scamp has a composite wood floor bonded into a two piece fiberglass shell, not ideal. Casita is about the same, but the bottom is fiberglass shell wraps the composite floor.

There are a few others out there worth considering, I can't remember names, but it's worth going on the Fiberglass RV forum for ideas.

Stay away from aluminum and composites, the aluminum is cold and damp, the composites are rattletraps and rot/fall apart. The fiberglass "eggs" last forever and are re-buildable.



JoePAz said:


> I am not 50 yet (1 month from 43), but I did just get an RV to use as basecamp for Mtn biking rides, 24 hr races, XC races and general camping.
> 
> I had two requirements. 1) Towable with my existing car 2) fit in my garage. My Aliner checks off both.
> 
> ...


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Stay away from aluminum and composites, the aluminum is cold and damp


You mean on of these? I have no idea how people can afford them (or the bigger units). I like the concept of the Basecamp, bike washing station too.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

temporoad said:


> You mean on of these? I have no idea how people can afford them (or the bigger units). I like the concept of the Basecamp, bike washing station too.


That Basecamp is obscenely expensive for its size. It def caters to the high end market.

Why I went with a camper that has a wood/alu exterior cladding. Much less expensive. Yeah, the insulating properties could be better. But it is small enough that it doesn't take much to warm the interior. And it stays surprisingly cool even on 90F+ days.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Haha, must have some sort of shower capabilty. Nurse Ben, good post - thank you.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Solar showers work nice

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Camping trailers are ridiculously over priced, especially the "boutique" ones. That nice fiberglass one Nurse Ben linked to STARTS at $25K and it doesn't have A/C or other stuff that would put it close to $30K by the time it had what I wanted. 

Unfortunately, lower end trailers are pretty cheaply built. But, they are functional. Jayco makes a 3000lb (sticker weight) fully-self contained trailer with a tub/shower/toilet, A/C, microwave, ect., and you can get it factory lifted. They run about $13K. 

Google "Jayco Jay Flight SLX 145RB Baja". They are hard to find, but I'm pretty sure that is the least expensive fully self contained rig out there, and you can get it into some tighter places.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> Camping trailers are ridiculously over priced, especially the "boutique" ones.


Why I bought what I did. Nice feature set and within my reach. No bathroom inside, but I don't need that anyway.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

andytiedye said:


> solar showers work nice _when the sun is shining_


fify


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Wow, that unit that Ben posted is pricey! Generally speaking a nice travel trailer, at the end of a model year can be had for $1K per foot; i.e, a 20 foot trailer should be $20K new, or less. Lower end models with fewer features can be had for much less. 

Finding a used trailer in good condition is generally where the bargains lie. Our Cougar was five years old when we bought it and it still had the stickers in the sink and shower from new. It still smelled new. We picked it up for $16K while it booked at over $20K.

I'll almost always let someone else take the depreciation hit.


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## MTB Dad (Sep 22, 2012)

@chuckha62- agree 100% good used trailers are out there as often people buy and for whatever reason decide it's not what they thought and sell cheap....

I bought a small brand new (21') Carson toy hauler years ago for under 20k, served my family fantastically for 9 years. Not top quality but it held up fine for a family of 4 and having a full bath, full kitchen, A/C and heater


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

*This just happened...*

2018 Travato.

The custom conversion thing was starting to give me a headache. Too many options: which builder, which van, which configuration, how long do you want to wait.....This ticks off most of the boxes and is turnkey.

21'
Bed is big when converted
shower/bath (non negotiable item for hub)
2 burner galley w/propane-electric stove
solar
awning
non-hitch bike rack (we tow a raft at times)
FWD

other goodies I'm usre.

What's not to love? An eclipse getaway will be the shakedown.


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## cbrossman (Mar 23, 2004)

Really cool!
I probably have 2 more years of planning, but I hope a class B is in our future,


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

formica said:


> 2018 Travato.
> 
> What's not to love? An eclipse getaway will be the shakedown.
> 
> View attachment 1152072


What's not to love? $100k+ price tag.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Planning, saving, budgeting... nothing wrong with that.


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## CrashCanipe (Jan 12, 2004)

formica said:


> Planning, saving, budgeting... nothing wrong with that.


Exactly. Just made a similar move to a Class A diesel pusher 40 foot RV.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

temporoad said:


> You mean on of these? I have no idea how people can afford them (or the bigger units). I like the concept of the Basecamp, bike washing station too.


Not an Airstream, I was talking about aluminum pop ups. Airstreams are pricey.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

formica said:


> 2018 Travato.
> 
> The custom conversion thing was starting to give me a headache. Too many options: which builder, which van, which configuration, how long do you want to wait.....This ticks off most of the boxes and is turnkey.
> 
> ...


Good choice, the Promaster is the best base vehicle for an RV build.

I assume you got diesel.

I love my Promaster, it's my everyday driver, hauls my dogs and gear, great for carrying construction materials, can pull a trailer if needed, averages 24mpg if I drive "normal".


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Congrats on the new rig, Formica!


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## Jing (Sep 4, 2013)

Sweet rig Formica, I'm sure you'll get some good use out of it. Are the bikes going on top? Another option would be a front mount hitch. I did this for my truck so I could access the camper without the bikes in the way. When you aren't towing the raft you can use the hitch off the back.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Sweet rig, formica! I wish I had a camping outing planned in combo with the eclipse, but that isn't gonna work until I get a 2nd vehicle that can tow the camper. My wife will be working that day. I really would like a smaller pickup truck again. I miss my old Ford Ranger.

Fortunately, our new home is maybe 20min from the path of totality, so either I will be happy with where we are and enjoy it here (I have my glasses and camera filter ready to go) or I will make a short drive to the totality. Haven't decided yet.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

- This rig is V6 gas, no diesel option
- bike rack that came with it is on the door. You can open the back door with the bikes on it. This way we can tow our raft and have bikes on rack.








-nope, don't have to put them on the top.
We are thinking about haveing a front mount fabricated for the spare. For all the $$ they only put a fix a flat kit in. "Call our roadside service!!!"
WTF!We told the dealer a full size spare was a deal breaker so they put a real spare on a stinger mount in the package. We don't love that mount but it will work for now.


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## cbrossman (Mar 23, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Good choice, the Promaster is the best base vehicle for an RV build.


Ben,
I'd like to be convinced of that. I've read that the transmission is just plain weird as are the ergonomics. And something in my head thinks towing with a front wheel drive is not as efficient as rear wheel drive, maybe that is just me.


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

cbrossman said:


> Ben,
> I'd like to be convinced of that. I've read that the transmission is just plain weird as are the ergonomics. And something in my head thinks towing with a front wheel drive is not as efficient as rear wheel drive, maybe that is just me.


The only thing I find "weird" about the transmission is the auto downshift going down hills. It's the first automatic I've owned, and I was surprised at how much I liked it. Ergonomics are fine for me, but I could see how you might not like the cab if you were tall. Tows fine, I've had a 3000# load on my flatbed, but I don't tow a lot.

Two things sold me on the Promaster, FWD for winter driving and the price. No problems in 2.5 years and 30k miles. Love how it drives.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

cbrossman said:


> Ben,
> I'd like to be convinced of that. I've read that the transmission is just plain weird as are the ergonomics. And something in my head thinks towing with a front wheel drive is not as efficient as rear wheel drive, maybe that is just me.


Yup, all in your head, towing with a fwd works fine, it's an old wives tale likely dreamt up by the big three to reinforce the American truck culture.

I had a rear wheel drive Sprinter, it was terrible in the snow, downright dangerous on ice, even chains weren't enough to give it traction.

The Promaster with snow tires absolutely kills it, two winters in heavy snow, up and down the ski resort, driving in the Methow and up into BC, lots of backroad driving, never got stuck, never needed chains.

Tows 5k, hauls 4k, gets up to 25mpg, runs like a top, turns tight as an old Jeep, and it's the least expensive large commercial van.

I love my auto manual, I shift manually in town, use auto on the road, downshifts automatically as you slow down, very cool. I'd take a manual if it was offered, but this tranny is not bad.

I actually go off road quite a bit, old Jeep roads and such, ground clearance is pretty good, got out to Gooseberry no problem.

The only thing that would make it better would be AWD, but the cost would be higher and mpg lower. It's just about perfect as it is.

You can keep your rear wheel drive van, I'll never go back!


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## JillRide45 (Dec 11, 2015)

formica said:


> - This rig is V6 gas, no diesel option
> - bike rack that came with it is on the door. You can open the back door with the bikes on it. This way we can tow our raft and have bikes on rack.
> View attachment 1152451
> 
> ...


Does the Promaster run on rear duallies? If so maybe that is why no spare, you can always use one of the inner wheels. Beautiful rig, enjoy!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

I have a 25ft Thor Mercedes Sprinter motorhome. I have owned it 2 years and put 40k miles on. Totally love it. I'm getting 16-18mpg (diesel) depending on water tank load. It has a King size bed which is awesome, it sleeps 6 total. 

Not 50+ sorry for the thread bomb.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yup, all in your head, towing with a fwd works fine, it's an old wives tale likely dreamt up by the big three to reinforce the American truck culture.
> 
> I had a rear wheel drive Sprinter, it was terrible in the snow, downright dangerous on ice, even chains weren't enough to give it traction.
> 
> ...


Did you put Sumo springs on it? The clearance on the Travato is pretty marginal but we did manage to make it up the designated for for our eclipse camp.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I actually dropped the back end by removing the secondary leaf springs and adding HD rubber bumpers to maintain load rating.

My rear deck height unloaded is ~1-2" higher than the front. Factory new the rear deck is at least six inches higher than the front. You can see my review on the Promaster forum.

I suspect you are running smaller tires, probably have some added equipment under the floorboards, also riding low due to weight.

I'm looking at getting my rear wheel tubs modified so I can run larger tires.



formica said:


> Did you put Sumo springs on it? The clearance on the Travato is pretty marginal but we did manage to make it up the designated for for our eclipse camp.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

yah, with the Travato everything is underneath.


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## centershot (Nov 21, 2008)

Wife and I have been enjoying a small pop up camper I picked up last spring. Great little camper. I pull it with my Nissan Frontier and have no problems at all. Comfortable, warm and big enough to stand in or sit at a table if its raining. Bikes in the truck with a tail gate pad and kayaks on top of the camper. Works great for 2-3-4 day trips. Paid $3K for it, worth every penny.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Anyone have a Trailmanor? There's one for sale locally and it's an intriguing option, sort of a hard-side pop-up/collapsible traveltrailer...


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## rvbiker (May 28, 2017)

This thread is a prime example of RV/camping culture. You have every possible variation represented from Tent to popup, to Van to Sprinter, Class C, Camper, 5er, and ClassA. I love the diversity of this culture.

I have just bought a lightly used '01 45' coach in tiptop shape and have a '09 Outback 2.5t mt toad. Selling house now and hitting the road. Not 50 yet, but closing in at a rapid pace... I will mainly stay in parks, but have all the ability in the world with the Outback to strike out. Will spend most of my time from Arizona to Canada on both sides of the rockies. See you guys out there!


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## YJ Bill (Jul 16, 2013)

Started out with a 1978 Ford Van back in the 80's. Over the years we have owned a couple of smaller class C's and when we retired we moved up to this Super C. Travel for up to 2 months at a time so now its nice to have a larger rig (Happy wife, Happy life!). Been to all the western states, spend most of our time in Colorado and Utah when not at home in SoCal.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

We like the trailer approach, though our Sprinter has a 3-panel platform bed that adds flexibility.

Currently without RV, but started with a Chalet (similar to A-Liner), then went to a bigger model. Of course, once you get where you're going, bigger is better, but we'll be back to another Chalet as the best compromise for us.

Built well, decent privacy, up and down faster and smoother than you can believe unless you've done it yourself, and such easy towing.

Our 07 Sprinter seems like a lifetime vehicle, but there is a new one coming, which should be engineered for 4WD right from the get-go, so that might be intriguing. The current 4wd version was kind of reverse engineered by MB, and requires lifting the van quite a bit to attain a reasonable angle on the front driveshaft. 

I'm tall, and sat in a Promaster, and that was the end of that test drive (plus it isn't well suited to towing my wife's small horse trailer).


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

kosmo said:


> Our 07 Sprinter seems like a lifetime vehicle, but there is a new one coming, which should be engineered for 4WD right from the get-go, so that might be intriguing. The current 4wd version was kind of reverse engineered by MB, and requires lifting the van quite a bit to attain a reasonable angle on the front driveshaft.


Are you saying the next 4WD Sprinter will sit lower and thus be worse offroad?

Other than the cost, the current 4x4 Sprinter would work great for the same things for which I use my F150. I was extremely jealous a few weeks ago as I tied some lumber into the bed of my truck with the tailgate down, while the guy next to me stacked 10' 2x6s into his Sprinter. I just wish you could get a 144" WB High Roof crew 4x4 Sprinter for around what I paid for my F150 4x4. $35K for an F150 4x4 that can tow 10,000 pounds in relative luxury vs. $52K for a stripped Sprinter 4x4 is just too much of a difference to swallow. I decided towing a travel trailer wasn't so bad.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

You want an F350 4 x 4 van conversion or similar, that's the only way you'll get 10k towing from a van. Personally, towing 10k is a dually job, but it's your life. I've seen bad things happen when a small vehicle is towing a big load.

I use my Promaster for traveling, camping, and construction. Fold up dinette gives me the space to haul two tons of material that is safe and protected from the weather. There is nothing better than loading sheetrock into your van laying flat and not having to worry about breaking sheets in the back of a truck.

I'm sure the Sprinter 4 x 4 is great, BUT they are expensive, suck fuel like crazy, and they really aren't made for rugged off road use. The only reason a Sprinter needs to be 4 x 4 is because rear wheel drive sucks in ice/snow and off road; kinda like a truck.

I keep telling folks that they need to get over their preconceived notions about front wheel drive vans. The Promaster tows great, it gets great traction, and it's very efficient. I go offroad all the time, going places I could never go with a rear wheel drive Sprinter... and I average 22-24mpg depending on the season. High of 26.5mpg 

The least expensive option is towing a trailer. We did that for years, it works fine, but I prefer to have a daily driver that meets all my needs in one package. I h



honkinunit said:


> Other than the cost, the current 4x4 Sprinter would work great for the same things for which I use my F150. I was extremely jealous a few weeks ago as I tied some lumber into the bed of my truck with the tailgate down, while the guy next to me stacked 10' 2x6s into his Sprinter. I just wish you could get a 144" WB High Roof crew 4x4 Sprinter for around what I paid for my F150 4x4. $35K for an F150 4x4 that can tow 10,000 pounds in relative luxury vs. $52K for a stripped Sprinter 4x4 is just too much of a difference to swallow. I decided towing a travel trailer wasn't so bad.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I've got a big 32' class C motorhome. About a year ago we bought a 24' class C, which honestly was big enough for our family of 3. I liked the driveability of the smaller size. I could do U-turns on most city streets, and could usually find a place to park by taking up a couple of parking spots at the end of a parking lot. But my wife wanted more living space. The bed in the back corner was a pain to make and tough to get in and out of. There was no place where we could all comfortably sit and watch a movie, and when we brought our 2 big dogs along it got pretty crowded.

The new RV has a walk-around bed with doors that close it off. It has bunks, which gives our son his own private space and allows us to bring grandparents and/or cousins along. There is a sofa where we can all sit comfortably. A full wall slideout gives lots of room inside. It is less maneuverable around town, and the turning radius is huge, but it hasn't been a big problem.

For just me or just me and my wife I'd prefer a class B, but for our family at this point in our life the big class C is nice.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

My van would fit in your bedroom 



jabrabu said:


> I've got a big 32' class C motorhome. About a year ago we bought a 24' class C, which honestly was big enough for our family of 3. I liked the driveability of the smaller size. I could do U-turns on most city streets, and could usually find a place to park by taking up a couple of parking spots at the end of a parking lot. But my wife wanted more living space. The bed in the back corner was a pain to make and tough to get in and out of. There was no place where we could all comfortably sit and watch a movie, and when we brought our 2 big dogs along it got pretty crowded.
> 
> The new RV has a walk-around bed with doors that close it off. It has bunks, which gives our son his own private space and allows us to bring grandparents and/or cousins along. There is a sofa where we can all sit comfortably. A full wall slideout gives lots of room inside. It is less maneuverable around town, and the turning radius is huge, but it hasn't been a big problem.
> 
> For just me or just me and my wife I'd prefer a class B, but for our family at this point in our life the big class C is nice.


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## BADDANDY (Feb 20, 2012)

Replaced this; (For sale)









With this today;


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

^^^ Schweet!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

You went with the slightly bigger than the travoto one I see.


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## BADDANDY (Feb 20, 2012)

formica said:


> You went with the slightly bigger than the travoto one I see.


I wanted a giant sports car. No negative reviews I've seen. I'm a Ford guy by heart. My Sprinter van was a great preamble though.


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## denyski (Jan 10, 2018)

First Post! My wife and I are practising for retirement. We are currently living in out 41 5er with the plan on taking next year off to travel and hit all the great MTB spots along the way! ( june 2018 to Sept 2019 ) We have a unique floor plan with the ability to hide our 4 bikes under our living room. We are set to be off the grid with 12 solar panels ( 1960 watts ) and 800 amps of Lithium. We are planning on going to Moab this March. We will have friends with us so we will be at an RV park Any good suggestions? I know about the great BLM spots there but I find its easier for all to be in a RV park? Looking forward to all the great riding and to hopefully meet some of you along the way! Denis and Val


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

denyski said:


> First Post! My wife and I are practising for retirement. We are currently living in out 41 5er with the plan on taking next year off to travel and hit all the great MTB spots along the way! ( june 2018 to Sept 2019 ) We have a unique floor plan with the ability to hide our 4 bikes under our living room. We are set to be off the grid with 12 solar panels ( 1960 watts ) and 800 amps of Lithium. We are planning on going to Moab this March. We will have friends with us so we will be at an RV park Any good suggestions? I know about the great BLM spots there but I find its easier for all to be in a RV park? Looking forward to all the great riding and to hopefully meet some of you along the way! Denis and Val


Pics!!!


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## denyski (Jan 10, 2018)

kosmo said:


> Pics!!!


Here are a couple of Pics. Rooftop pictures coming soon (-:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

denyski said:


> We will have friends with us so we will be at an RV park Any good suggestions? I know about the great BLM spots there but I find its easier for all to be in a RV park? Looking forward to all the great riding and to hopefully meet some of you along the way! Denis and Val


I like your garage setup. Be careful with private RV parks. I found them very hit-or-miss on my trip to AZ last spring (from Indiana). I have a teardrop, so my setup is very different, but you've gotta be careful about the rules at some of the private RV parks. A lot of them are EXTREMELY restrictive. They cater to retirees who live out of their RV's, and who don't do anything else. Common (and ridiculous) rules I encountered included no sitting outside by the fire (no fires at all - not even a propane firepit). No outdoor cooking, period. STRICT hours (which are problematic for starting early rides, or riding late). Basically, you're allowed to sit outside during daylight hours only, more or less completely silent.

IME, if you MUST have facilities, state park campgrounds are better. For stops on the road, I usually use a combination of truck stops (if I'm okay with not showering at sketchy truck stop showers) and KOA campgrounds (especially if I want a shower).


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

We have stayed at a variety of campgrounds from primitive camps to luxury RV resorts. I have never encountered rules against campfires except at Disney's Fort Wilderness, which only allows specific covered fire pits. One other place had some burning restrictions because it was in a drought and there was a high fire danger. I have never heard of no outdoor cooking. This is just my experience.

We typically prefer state parks for camping. They are usually beautiful and quiet and offer nice woods and privacy, and they cost half of what a KOA does. But you usually don't get any wifi and cellular service is often bad too. Most of the KOAs are like parking lots with rows of RVs parked next to each other, and that doesn't appeal to us. They do offer more activities for families, though, if that's what you enjoy. There are a few that have some nice private wooded sites, though, and we do stay at KOAs on occasion.

For the private campgrounds, it's very hit and miss. We have stayed at some really nice ones and some that were really weird.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jabrabu said:


> We have stayed at a variety of campgrounds from primitive camps to luxury RV resorts. I have never encountered rules against campfires except at Disney's Fort Wilderness, which only allows specific covered fire pits. One other place had some burning restrictions because it was in a drought and there was a high fire danger. I have never heard of no outdoor cooking. This is just my experience.


One place I looked at required you to be inside your rig from 10pm to 7am. This one didn't prohibit fires outright, but that single rule makes it really hard to just sit quietly by the fire when it's dark. With a teardrop camper, it also severely restricts meal prep times. It's one of those rules you might barely even notice if you've got a big self-contained camper, but that's not what I have, so rules like that stick out to me.

The no fire thing seemed to be a one-off. The place did not provide fire pits. It was in an area that frequently experienced high fire danger, and that's probably why. But they didn't even allow you to use your own propane firepit.

One private place I investigated staying at (but wound up avoiding) looked like it might be a nice place, but the online reviews for the place were a big red flag. The owners were apparently nutso, and would threaten guests. Sometimes with death threats. Just because the guests would tell the attendant that the TP was empty in the bathroom or something innocuous like that.

A KOA type place is certainly not my idea of a great vacation, but they're commonly placed along major travel routes and the facilities are a step up from a truck stop.

State park amenities vary quite a bit. I've been to state parks that had pretty good wifi, actually.

The best place I've stayed so far is Mulberry Gap, though. Private, for sure, but those folks know hospitality well. They don't have room for big RV's, but for a little camper like mine, it's perfect. Apparently the Bike Farm in Pisgah is cool with little campers like mine, too, but the place seems to me like it'd be tough to get situated with any sort of trailer there.


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## 2melow (Jan 5, 2004)

denyski said:


> We are set to be off the grid with 12 solar panels ( 1960 watts ) and 800 amps of Lithium. We are planning on going to Moab this March. We will have friends with us so we will be at an RV park Any good suggestions? I know about the great BLM spots there but I find its easier for all to be in a RV park? Looking forward to all the great riding and to hopefully meet some of you along the way! Denis and Val


Screw the RV park! With that much power why do you need to even think about being on the grid? I guess unless you want the comfort of being in town, which I could see some benefit if in a group with freinds.

We're not even close to retirement or 50+ for that matter (42, or even should be in this forum) but we do have about 30+ weeks of Moab experience over the years if you add it all up. We've camped pretty much everywhere and in all the "in town" campsites - we have 2 kids 10 and 13 who do like the pool. So we typically go primitive 1/2 the week and 1/2 time in town at a RV resort campground.

As a few noted, each campground has their own rules. Some have better showers, better hot tub(s), heated pool, charcoal grill, grassy spot or "premium site" for you dog to pee, etc. Best to make a list of your needs and write them down. We really like Moab Valley RV Resort because it is right by the river right after you cross the bridge and has the fastest getaway to MTB'ing up north where we mostly ride (wife and kids like Navajo, Horsethief, Deadhorse, Klonzo, Bar-M, etc) and they also have a super sweet pool and hot tub to chill out in after a long day riding and in the sun. Down side is its super close to the highway, so more road noise. Slickrock Campground has the most mature trees (shade) but seems to be more partying and late night riff-raff at night with the river/kayak crowd. Better campground for sure though for later in the season (late May/June) simply due to tree cover. Those big Cottonwoods are awesome and drown out the highway noise. But you have AC so really not an issue anywhere you go. 

Here is a courtesy bookmark for you that we've used and have in our Moab bookmark folder.. Moab Commercial Campgrounds

We do like to "primitive RV camp" a lot in our 36' Outback 324CG to get away from the people and quite frankly, a fast growing Moab town. I dream of a setup like yours though! We just made the last payment on our toy hauler trailer and it feels really good. For camping/work stuff I've been able to pull 4g pretty much everywhere primitive camping in Moab, the last spot we were a few miles north of Horsethief campground and I had to take calls from the roof for that extra "bar" (see pic below) we like to play hard but self employed so have to make sure emails and phone calls get returned!

Have fun in Moab, we will be there in March for a week too. 

Brett


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

Anyone know the in's/out's of RV camping ( 32' ) around Pisgah? Bets places to try when everything is booked up ( first come first serve spots ) . Ive been to Lake Powhatan once , very nice, but is seems to get booked up fast !
thnx


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

spleeft said:


> Anyone know the in's/out's of RV camping ( 32' ) around Pisgah? Bets places to try when everything is booked up ( first come first serve spots ) . Ive been to Lake Powhatan once , very nice, but is seems to get booked up fast !
> thnx


Davidson River might be worth a shot. It is just busy here so to fit a big rv somewhere, you have to plan well ahead. Especially during busy times. Another Pisgah USFS campground is in the N. Mills River area.

Also Mt Pisgah on the Blue Ridge Parkway has a NPS campground if your rv will fit through the tunnels.

I made a last minute trip with my teardrop last spring, before I moved here. There were some big events in Asheville and the only place I could find was a KOA. I was not willing to gamble on finding a pulloff site in Pisgah. Some will fit my camper but many will not. You will be even more limited on those sites.

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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Here's our new (last year or so) rig. Not over the top, everything we need for boondocking or glamping. Boondocking is preferable, and we hit the desert with a 35 gallon drum of water in the back of the truck to extend our "dry" time. The topper is the rolling kennel for the herd of dogs. Note the bike rack on the side of the topper, there's one on the other side as well, and one on top of the topper - all of them can take standard mtbs or our fatbikes too. I don't like having the bikes on the trailer, because we often use camp as basecamp and drive to various trailheads, and we'd need another bike rack for this.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

For those of you who carry bikes outside of the camper, how do you protect them from theft? I have a truck camper and rack, but I'd be bummed if one of the bikes disappeared. I know not many people in an rv park would be interested in a bicycle, but I'd prefer to remove all temptation.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

twodownzero said:


> For those of you who carry bikes outside of the camper, how do you protect them from theft? I have a truck camper and rack, but I'd be bummed if one of the bikes disappeared. I know not many people in an rv park would be interested in a bicycle, but I'd prefer to remove all temptation.


Many locks. I keep a few around.

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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

twodownzero said:


> For those of you who carry bikes outside of the camper, how do you protect them from theft? I have a truck camper and rack, but I'd be bummed if one of the bikes disappeared. I know not many people in an rv park would be interested in a bicycle, but I'd prefer to remove all temptation.


The bike racks have built in locks, but I'd never leave them overnight in, say, a hotel parking lot. When we're camping, in camp the bikes get locked with a long cable, or are back on the truck racks. If anyone were to get close to the truck, they'd be greeted by three large dogs raising holy hell. If we leave camp for an extended period of time, but aren't riding, then they go inside the camper. Sad to say, I heard of more than one occasion where bikes have been stolen from a campsite.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

watermonkey said:


> The bike racks have built in locks, but I'd never leave them overnight in, say, a hotel parking lot. When we're camping, in camp the bikes get locked with a long cable, or are back on the truck racks. If anyone were to get close to the truck, they'd be greeted by three large dogs raising holy hell. If we leave camp for an extended period of time, but aren't riding, then they go inside the camper. Sad to say, I heard of more than one occasion where bikes have been stolen from a campsite.


It'd definitely be a tight fit inside my camper for two bikes, but I may test this idea this weekend and see if I can even get two bikes inside. The cable locks on the bike racks (and, in fact, cable locks of any kind) are so easy to cut that they really won't buy you much time, but they're better than nothing I guess.

I do have transport chain and a heavy duty lock. I couldn't leave that on the bikes when driving, but I could install it when parked if I wanted to leave them on the rack while I was sleeping inside.

I guess the next camper I buy should have a garage in back, even if it's not a huge 5er.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

twodownzero said:


> It'd definitely be a tight fit inside my camper for two bikes, but I may test this idea this weekend and see if I can even get two bikes inside. The cable locks on the bike racks (and, in fact, cable locks of any kind) are so easy to cut that they really won't buy you much time, but they're better than nothing I guess.
> 
> I do have transport chain and a heavy duty lock. I couldn't leave that on the bikes when driving, but I could install it when parked if I wanted to leave them on the rack while I was sleeping inside.
> 
> I guess the next camper I buy should have a garage in back, even if it's not a huge 5er.


If I have to leave the bikes, I rely on multiple locks of multiple different types. Storage/weight isn't such a concern, so I double down...or more. I should probably add a chain to the mix, but yeah. u-locks, multiple cables, etc.


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## BADDANDY (Feb 20, 2012)

Hard to see, but I have a 1/2" cable wrapped around and thru bike and carrier locked to trailer hitch. There's enough cable to route thru the wheels if need be.


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## byost34 (Jan 19, 2018)

I am new to the forum and I can't believe there is an over 50 section let alone an RV section! Here is a couple of pictures of our home base for weekend riding trips I bought this unit used 2 years ago. My wife and I wanted to get into RVing but, we weren't sure how much we would use a full size RV. we looked at class C's and travel trailers before we settled on this 2000 Damon Challenger. when we bought it it only had 14,000 miles on it, the first owner used it only for tailgating football games and the second owner never camped in it the 2 years he owned it. The maiden voyage for this RV was quite an adventure. I drove it solo to the 2016 Brown County Epic in Nashville Indiana. I had no experience driving anything this big so I thought I would make the 150 mile trip taking 2 lane highways instead of fighting truck traffic on the interstate. Wrong! once these dudes are rolling,don't stop! About 3-4 miles from Nashville I overheated the brakes on the hills of Brown County.At one point I had no brakes and I was looking for a ditch to crash into when I remembered the emergency brake, which luckily is hydraulic and stops the driveshaft. By the time I found a place to pull over the caliper had caught fire! Got that put out and managed to limp it into a repair shop where my son and I camped for the weekend. Since then I have learned to stay on the interstate as much as possible and never pull into someplace that you don't want to back out of.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

byost34 said:


> Since then I have learned to stay on the interstate as much as possible and never pull into someplace that you don't want to back out of.
> View attachment 1179019


I hope you also learned how to downshift your transmission and let engine braking hold your speed on a long downgrade. If you didn't, then please avoid I-70 in Colorado.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> I hope you also learned how to downshift your transmission and let engine braking hold your speed on a long downgrade. If you didn't, then please avoid I-70 in Colorado.


Yeah, probably not. Those hills are pretty much nothing compared to I70 in CO. Steep and twisty, sure...but not all that long. Yeah, if you are cooking your brakes in Indiana, you're doing it wrong.

So many midwesterners have no idea when it comes to mountain driving. I once drove to the top of Mauna Kea to the telescopes. It is a very long climb, mostly gravel. The rental car companies DO NOT want you going there. I rented a 4wd jeep for that and a few other prohibited places. It is the sort of slope where you put the jeep into 4 lo and coast. They have had so many problems with people cooking their brakes and driving off the mountainside because so many visitors are clueless because they have never been exposed to it before.

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## rvbiker (May 28, 2017)

Here's my setup, older '01 Bus/Coach build. In process of going full time and selling house.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I can cut that 1/2" cable in ten seconds.

Never leave your bikes locked on the rack, even while having dinner, it's way to enticing for bike thieves.



BADDANDY said:


> Hard to see, but I have a 1/2" cable wrapped around and thru bike and carrier locked to trailer hitch. There's enough cable to route thru the wheels if need be.
> 
> View attachment 1178509


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## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

twodownzero said:


> I do have transport chain and a heavy duty lock. I couldn't leave that on the bikes when driving, but I could install it when parked if I wanted to leave them on the rack while I was sleeping inside.


That's what I do... it's still only a deterrent, but much better than a cable.

Beast #8018L â€" OnGuard Locks

Plus

Boxer #8046 â€" OnGuard Locks


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## BADDANDY (Feb 20, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> Never leave your bikes locked on the rack, even while having dinner, it's way to enticing for bike thieves.


I apparently don't live where you guys do because that cable has secured my bikes on racks and trailers for over 10 years. Saying that, I'll be making a bike stand INSIDE the van as I did in the Sprinter. Outa sight, outa mind!


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Harold said:


> I once drove to the top of Mauna Kea to the telescopes. It is a very long climb, mostly gravel. The rental car companies DO NOT want you going there. I rented a 4wd jeep for that and a few other prohibited places. It is the sort of slope where you put the jeep into 4 lo and coast. They have had so many problems with people cooking their brakes and driving off the mountainside because so many visitors are clueless because they have never been exposed to it before.


I, too, rented a 4wd with low range to drive to the top of Mauna Kea.

I found the drive to be far less scary than they made it sound and would gladly do it again in a front wheel drive car.

That said, taking care of one's brakes is not a bad idea for mountain driving.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

twodownzero said:


> I, too, rented a 4wd with low range to drive to the top of Mauna Kea.
> 
> I found the drive to be far less scary than they made it sound and would gladly do it again in a front wheel drive car.
> 
> That said, taking care of one's brakes is not a bad idea for mountain driving.


The Mauna Kea drive, sure, I'd do in a FWD car. I have done gnarlier drives in cars in the past. A legit 4 low to just roll down the mountain sure made for an easy, low stress return trip, however (especially as I watched people ahead of me riding their brakes the whole way).

But I also drove down into Waipio Valley and forded the river to get to the beach. There was a guard present at the top to turn back folks lacking 4wd. And I planned on going out to the green sand beach but could not fit that into my trip in the end.

Ppl in the midwest aren't even taught to downshift in their auto transmission cars to save the brakes on downhills. I grew up there. I did not learn mountain driving (especially with 4wd) until I worked for the USFS in Utah after college.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Every RV/camper is a basketful of compromises. These are the ones we selected:

https://mikesee.exposure.co/clifford


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## eonicks (Mar 3, 2011)

*Family of 5 setup*

Here's our trailer at Sedona last week.


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## owtdorz (Apr 26, 2012)

Much nicer than our Jeep and Popup. Refrigerator, hot showers, comfy bed and flush toilet (wife's happy)


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## jsg (May 26, 2005)

We've camped in a pop up for 8 years. It's great in good weather, not as nice in heat or extended rain. all campers are compromises.

 by -MN Gudes-


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I've always enjoyed this thread, but it has gone a little quite...maybe time to generate some more interest.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Cleared2land said:


> I've always enjoyed this thread, but it has gone a little quite...maybe time to generate some more interest.


Agreed!

We're still "on the hunt". RV shows, wandering around lots, etc.. No hurry. Current cool things on the list for consideration:

1. A Liners. Had an A-frame before. Loved towing it, but we may have aged out of that level of basic approach.

2. Hymer GT Touring. Kinda new to the states. Have not seen one in the flesh, yet. Should be in Oregon in December.

3. Safari Condo. Made in Quebec. If I didn't have to drive across North America to get one, I think I'd own their new-ish, 21 footer.

4. Knauss Deseo. A really cool, lightweight, high-end toy hauler. Not available on this side of the Atlantic.

Things we thought we'd love, until we actually saw them:

1. All the fiberglass trailers. Obviously built to last forever, but they just seem like caves inside. Escape seems like it might be the best one of these going. Have to drive to BC for delivery, which would be fine by us, coming from OR.

What we'd buy if we had to pick one tomorrow: Lance 1475. Pretty traditional but high quality, and my wife's current favorite (a bit larger in height and width than I would ideally prefer to tow, but happy wife, happy life and all that).


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

After owning our little Jayco for a few years, I'll say this:

1) Know how you are going to camp. A trailer that is great for commercial campgrounds with shore power and water/sewer hookups may not be as great for boondocking. Pay attention to the size of the water and gray/black tanks for example. The bigger the better if you are away from a dump station or hookup. How big are the battery or batteries, and the gas tank(s)? 

2) Get a 3-way refrigerator so you can keep things cold on the road. Actually look at the refrigerator and verify that it is three way, instead of relying on the BS the dealer is feeding you (more below).

3) Manufacturers generally put crap tires on their trailers. Pay attention, or suffer the flat after midnight on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. Be sure your spare has air in it. 

4) Do you really need a huge A/C on a small trailer? A little window unit can run on a 2000 watt generator, that huge roof unit will come in handy once a year when you are camping in the desert, but will require a much bigger generator if you are not on shore power. A/C is hands down the biggest power user. Also, the roof units add another foot to the overall height of the trailer. 

4) Be sure you have an adequate tow vehicle. Add 30% to any manufacturer weight rating on their trailer to be closer to reality. Keep in mind that weight is *not* the major factor at 70-75 MPH, wind resistance is the major factor. Your little 6 cylinder SUV may tow fine at 55 MPH, but going 70-75 MPH is different ballgame for a trailer with a full sized frontal area. 

5) I have found RV dealers to be %&^$ing terrible, at least in Colorado. They are worse than any car dealer. They don't know their products, and they will lie to you about anything and everything to get a sale. After the sale, the service is ridiculously bad. I've heard story after story from other RV owners of all brands, even super high end ones. The industry is full of shysters. Buyer beware. 

6) Hopefully you won't be served with three different recalls like our Jayco has, and hopefully your dealer won't be so stupid as to require you to drive your trailer for an hour each way so they can "inspect" the unit before they actually order the parts, even though they have the VIN number and KNOW what parts they need, and KNOW they must be replaced. Then have fun trying to get an appointment scheduled after the parts arrive at the dealer, and sit for six weeks because they forgot to call you.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> After owning our little Jayco for a few years, I'll say this:
> 
> 1) Know how you are going to camp. A trailer that is great for commercial campgrounds with shore power and water/sewer hookups may not be as great for boondocking. Pay attention to the size of the water and gray/black tanks for example. The bigger the better if you are away from a dump station or hookup. How big are the battery or batteries, and the gas tank(s)?
> 
> ...


So glad I bought a small trailer directly from the guy who built it.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

I'll jump in.
Ive been posting/learning in the Ford Truck and RV forums but I'm sure you'all have lots of RV knowledge here too.
After months of research, Wife, dog and I are looking to purchase a toy hauler ( Cruiser Stryker 2613 ) and I have a special order F 350 6.2 due in any day. We've tent camped a ton over the years but are ready for a little convenience these days. After considering all the RV possibilities , truck camper / regular tow trailer camper / 5th wheel, weve decided on toy hauler simply to be able to store all toys worry free from the elements/ theft/ etc and we really like the open floor plans. Any of you taller people ever try sitting at a RV kitchen dinette???!!! They are built for 4' tall 10 year olds !!! The Strykers all have true King size beds too, a must have for us.
Planning on boondocking through glamping / have the Onan gen as part of the Toy hauler purchase with planned upgrades to batteries/charger/bat monitor/ and eventually solar. 
We are total RV newbs so I plan on shorter / closer trips at first, while keeping close track of amps used so as to get a bead on upgrading battery bank / solar / etc .
Only thing going in the "garage" will be three mountain bikes ( I just got into Mbiking about 4 years ago ) , and a bunch of surfboards/ Sups / kiteboarding gear / tools.
Obviously looking to find rv camping at surf spots all over the East Coast at first, along with exploring places to mountain bike with big lakes near for Supping and possibly kiteboarding. We're also avid poker players so plan on using RV to boondock in the parking lots of Casinos everywhere, ( most allow and encourage it ).
Ive never been out west in the summer so that will be a big part of the bucket list !! 
Do you'all have any suggestions as to camping possibilities? Will have 30' RV in tow and able to boondock.
Ive been researching the State parks / RV camping places from Nova Scotia to Florida using google and "Hipcamp" but maybe someone has a gem they want to share?? Soem of these private RV parks are crazy with the costs and rules !!!
Thanks for any help / suggestions !


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

spleeft said:


> Some of these private RV parks are crazy with the costs and rules !!!
> Thanks for any help / suggestions !


You're not kidding about this. It's true pretty much anywhere, though.

I think true boondocking (at least in the woods, not casino parking lots) is going to be tough for such a big camper in the east. Hell, mine is TINY and there aren't many boondock sites I can use in the southern Appalachians. I live here and ride past many roadside boondock sites - many of them can fit a camper van at most and only a couple have enough space for a smaller trailer like mine or a popup.

It seems like many of the sites USED to be able to handle bigger campers on the roadside sites, but the land managers have placed big boulders to prevent that. I think at least some of that has happened within the past 15yrs. I think it has at least something to do with itinerant populations who push the limits of the usfs free roadside camping limits (2 weeks). Like the Rainbow Gathering types. I have definitely noticed since moving here that there's a population of people who use these free roadside sites and really take up RESIDENCE while they're using them.

There's a fee-based primitive USFS campground nearby that can fit small trailers like mine, so at least I have those kinds of options. For you, though, I think even places like that might not work, because they don't have room for bigger campers.

It seems to me like out west, you'll have better choices. IME with roadside sites in UT and AZ, that many of them fit bigger vehicles, and since public lands are more expansive, you get access to more/larger flatter sites. The terrrain works against you in the eastern national forests, I've seen. More tighter/twistier roads through more incised terrain leave the roadside sites perched a bit more precariously on hillsides or between the road and a cut wall.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I love my Promaster 118 van, it's my every day driver, hauls gear, construction materials, and takes care of us on trips. I can average 25mpg if I keep my foot out of the floor.

I have a minumum build out, folding dinette, ventilation, and a fridge (pending). I still need to build the fridge cabinet and do some bulkhead storage, also thinking about a vertical bike mount with the front wheel off.

Only thing I'd do on version two is go with a 136 high roof and have the bed ona platform that stows into the ceiling with a variable height so I can stow gear or bikes underneath when the bed is in use.

The Promaster is a great all terrain vehicle for those who find the cost and mpg of the 4x4 Sprinter to be excessive.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

*Alex's Van*

Geezzz....I can only add one YouTube at a time.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

*Part 2*


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Mike tells the truth, there's no such thing as perfect.

After pop ups, tow behinds, tenting, we found that an efficient euro van to use as a daily driver and for for the occasional camping was a nice way to have our cake and eat it too.

What we hated most about campers: they sit unused most of the time.

What we love about a minimalist van conversion: it gets used everyday.

Last weekend I was camping in Moab, now I'm back at work, my bike and gear are safely stored in the van, so then after work I went riding and comfortably changed clothes at the trail head parking lot.

This weekend I'll be hauling construction materials in the van, the following weekend we're drving to SLC to see the kids.

One van for all your lifestyles 



mikesee said:


> Every RV/camper is a basketful of compromises ...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Great vids. thanks for sharing C2L.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I really like the offering afforded by having an RV, but most of my travels are remote backcountry FS roads with a significant healthy mix of 4x4 roads.

Remote accessibility has its advantages. And, I have an upper deck to sleep on.


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## Jing (Sep 4, 2013)

C2l, put a pop up camper on that truck you have. They offer nice amenities in a pretty compact package that still allows you to get back into most dirt roads.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Cleared2land said:


> I really like the offering afforded by having an RV, but most of my travels are remote backcountry FS roads with a significant healthy mix of 4x4 roads.
> 
> Remote accessibility has its advantages.
> 
> ...


I put an insulated camper shell on my F150. I got the tallest one I could find that was not a flat out utility tool carrier type, a Century T-Class. It slopes up from front to back, and by the back window, I only have to crouch a little bit while standing. I have the 6.5 foot bed so sleeping inside works great.

I use the F150 to tow my little camping trailer. We can park the trailer in a campground for a few days, and take 4x4 overnight trips, sleeping in the back of the truck.

I need to get one of those little catalytic heaters for the back of the truck. Currently, if it is really cold, we take out generator and use it to run an electric heater, but that is a pain and overkill for what we need. We have a little 12V OTooCool fan to move air in summer, but sometimes we just sleep outside under the stars because it is too warm to sleep in back. We sleep on cots in the bed of the truck or outside, but I have thought about trying to rig a hammock back there. Hard to do, since you really don't want that kind of load on the walls of your shell.

My next project for the truck is to build a platform that rests on the wheelwells so we can sleep on the platform and store stuff underneath.


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

honkinunit said:


> I use the F150 to tow my little camping trailer. We can park the trailer in a campground for a few days, and take 4x4 overnight trips, sleeping in the back of the truck.


I love this idea!!!! thanks


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I forgot to share my first major addition to my camper. A propane tank and holder. 11gal, which should last awhile. For now, it's just for cooking. But I'm eventually going to install a propex heater for cold weather boondocking. Maybe an on-demand water heater, as well. But the propex will come first.


0727181346 by Nate, on Flickr


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## bcaronongan (Nov 8, 2006)

Here is our setup at Hesitation Point back in 2017 during the Brown County Epic.

It was nice because it rained on Saturday late afternoon. We were dry. Took showers. Cooked food. After the rain passed we meandered to the tent.

Love our rig.

We did have to upgrade the tow vehicle...that F150 was starting to wear out pulling the toy hauler.


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## JohnnyTwoSheds (Dec 31, 2018)

I’ve been full-timing for over 4 years now. Currently have a 17’ Jayco hybrid trailer. Put my 2 bikes on the back of my Yukon XL tow vehicle. As an itinerant chef, I can’t see ever going back to a sticks & bricks house! Two years to retirement and already collecting SS.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

My Promaster just turned 65k, love the vehicle, tows, hails, vamps, and it tears up snow and mud. Going for 200k, then who knows, maybe a 136 High with a sleep platform that stows in the ceiling.


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## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Who votes for a Dodge Diesel, like in the video? What is the best choice for back woods forest service roads?



Cleared2land said:


>


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

chrisx said:


> Who votes for a Dodge Diesel, like in the video? What is the best choice for back woods forest service roads?


Fiat dropped the diesel for 2019. I heard horror stories about the "automated manual" transmission on those.

Apparently the only engine offered is the Chrysler 3.6L V6 which Chrysler puts in just about every vehicle they sell. It is only available with a six speed auto. I had that engine in a Wrangler, and I had THREE serious issues in just 60,000 miles. I dumped it. It is also seriously the wrong engine for hauling large loads - it is biased toward horsepower on the high end, whereas in a van you want torque at low RPMs. Jeep gets around it by putting low gearing on the Wrangler. The new RAM pickup gets a battery assist as standard with that engine. With the van, you are stuck with the six speed auto and no hybrid assist.

You are probably better off with a 4x4 Sprinter for backroad use. Of course, you will pay a lot more for one of those. You can even get low range. Unfortunately, a 4x4 Sprinter with just a few options is over $60K.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

We picked our rig with a mind toward family vacations. I look at it more as a "rolling timeshare" than a camper. Meanwhile, bikes can be tucked out of sight in the basement.



DSC05638.jpg by tltichy, on Flickr


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I have the auto-manual with a diesel and I love it! Hauls great, no issues.

Don't believe everything you read. For every dissatisfied customer there are thousands who are satisfied.

They dropped the diesel due to costs to produce the engine/emissions and less US demand for diesel.

I'd get the Penstat gas motor if that all they offered, it's a solid performer, got one on my Jeep Wrangler, no issues there either.

Bottom line, the Promaster gives the biggest bang for the buck, only large front wheel drive van, most efficient large van, lowest load height, and widest body. You can even get it with dual sliding doors ?



honkinunit said:


> Fiat dropped the diesel for 2019. I heard horror stories about the "automated manual" transmission on those.
> 
> Apparently the only engine offered is the Chrysler 3.6L V6 which Chrysler puts in just about every vehicle they sell. It is only available with a six speed auto. I had that engine in a Wrangler, and I had THREE serious issues in just 60,000 miles. I dumped it. It is also seriously the wrong engine for hauling large loads - it is biased toward horsepower on the high end, whereas in a van you want torque at low RPMs. Jeep gets around it by putting low gearing on the Wrangler. The new RAM pickup gets a battery assist as standard with that engine. With the van, you are stuck with the six speed auto and no hybrid assist.
> 
> You are probably better off with a 4x4 Sprinter for backroad use. Of course, you will pay a lot more for one of those. You can even get low range. Unfortunately, a 4x4 Sprinter with just a few options is over $60K.


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## Iowagriz (Jan 14, 2008)

scatterbrained said:


> We picked our rig with a mind toward family vacations. I look at it more as a "rolling timeshare" than a camper. Meanwhile, bikes can be tucked out of sight in the basement.
> 
> 
> 
> DSC05638.jpg by tltichy, on Flickr


I keep looking at class A's with the idea of bikes in the basement as well. I don't find many that seem to be able to do the trick. Can you post up a photo of how you pull this off? I assume wheels and seatpost off the bike.


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## CrashCanipe (Jan 12, 2004)

I've found that for class A's it depends on whether it is gas or a diesel pusher. One (of many) of the reasons we went diesel is because it doesn't have the driveshaft cutting straight down the middle of the storage area. I can easily get my mountain bike on one side and my road bike on the other without removing any wheels or bars. It is a little bit of a contortion to get the mountain bike in with the 780mm bars though.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

scatterbrained said:


> We picked our rig with a mind toward family vacations. I look at it more as a "rolling timeshare" than a camper. Meanwhile, bikes can be tucked out of sight in the basement.
> 
> 
> 
> DSC05638.jpg by tltichy, on Flickr


In the evenings you can drive Uber/Lyft using the MKT and pay for your fuel!


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Iowagriz said:


> I keep looking at class A's with the idea of bikes in the basement as well. I don't find many that seem to be able to do the trick. Can you post up a photo of how you pull this off? I assume wheels and seatpost off the bike.


. My coach is on a raised rail chassis so the basement is tall enough to sit in. Not all coaches have that kind of clearance. The bikes still need to have the front wheel removed and be laid on their side though. The kids bikes are small enough that dropping the seats and removing the front wheels allows for them to be stood up in the basement. 
I've been contemplating buying some solid travel cases, but just can't justify it right now as we haven't done much traveling since getting to San Diego.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

There is a new (?) Promaster lift kit for $2600 that will add 3.5".


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

JoePAz said:


> I am not 50 yet (1 month from 43), but I did just get an RV to use as basecamp for Mtn biking rides, 24 hr races, XC races and general camping.
> 
> I had two requirements. 1) Towable with my existing car 2) fit in my garage. My Aliner checks off both.
> 
> ...


Also not 50, but tired of PNW rain and counting the days to retiring to a sunnier locale. IME, A frame trailers are very functional. In our case, we just moved from a Chalet A frame to a Ford Transit conversion with Sportsmobile poptop. Every option has pros and cons. The van is far more expensive then the poptop, but much faster to take off on a trip and get back into the garage on return, and very importantly to me, bikes are kept inside. We can also travel at higher speeds on the highway, and an issue perhaps unique to greater Seattle, we don't get hit with overlength charges on the WA ferries. The biggest downside other than cost is that we can't unhitch and leave camp set up. That's a minor nuisance in places where the rides are all a driver from camp. Overall, the van works well and I'm happy with it, but it is hard to justify the cost vs an A frame popup.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

ACree said:


> The van is far more expensive then the poptop, but...
> 
> Every option has pros and cons.
> 
> Overall, the van works well and I'm happy with it, but it is hard to justify the cost vs an A frame popup.


Careful evaluation of finding that Cost/Value/Disposable Income/Needs ratio that works for you. There's a trade-off for every aspect of this game, unless the disposable income component is a non-issue. Then, it's game on.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Iowagriz said:


> I keep looking at class A's with the idea of bikes in the basement as well. I don't find many that seem to be able to do the trick. Can you post up a photo of how you pull this off? I assume wheels and seatpost off the bike.


If you want Class A to do a lot of MTB trips I'd look at the Newmar Canyon Star or the Thor Outlaw. Nothing beats having a full garage built in. The Safari Trek uses a drop down bed, so the bedroom can be an office or bike space during the day.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

Cleared2land said:


> There's a trade-off for every aspect of this game, unless the disposable income component is a non-issue. Then, it's game on.


Case in point, this new dinghy Jerry Jones just bought himself...

Now that's what I call an RV!


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

formica said:


> There is a new (?) Promaster lift kit for $2600 that will add 3.5".


Does it lift the whole thing, or just the rear axle? Floor clearance is fine, and I like that it's not too high off the ground. Only clearance issue is the rear axle. We've managed to get into what seemed like high clearance only destinations as is though.

I'll put in a plug for the Promaster too. Wide enough that sub 6' people can sleep sideways, front wheel drive, surprisingly nimble and fun to drive (I've got a 144 low roof). It serves double duty as my daily driver contractor work rig and as a weekend and vacation road trip camper. Two of us and two dogs fill it up pretty well, and our setup means bikes are outside on the back.

Been very reliable for 4 years/50K miles FWIW.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

panchosdad said:


> Does it lift the whole thing, or just the rear axle? Only clearance issue is the rear axle.


Only bigger tires/wheels can lift the axles. The lift kit lifts everything above the axles, including the front end.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

This thread reminds me of the many gigantic lifted trucks I see in Colorado, that have less actual ground clearance than my Subaru. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

*Here's an RV that can get you high...*



Ladmo said:


> Case in point, this new dinghy Jerry Jones just bought himself...
> 
> Now that's what I call an RV!
> 
> View attachment 1232626


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## kuuk (May 26, 2008)

I started out with a truck camper on an F350 crew cab but I got tired of loading it on and off the truck for trips but I got a lot of use out of it. Decided to go with a class B+ that is 26' long and has a slide out. I've owned it for about 5 years have loved it but I'm thinking of getting rid of it before it is worthless. Maybe take a break for a bit and then try the van thing or maybe a small trailer.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

kuuk said:


> I started out with a truck camper on an F350 crew cab but I got tired of loading it on and off the truck for trips but I got a lot of use out of it. Decided to go with a class B+ that is 26' long and has a slide out. I've owned it for about 5 years have loved it but I'm thinking of getting rid of it before it is worthless. Maybe take a break for a bit and then try the van thing or maybe a small trailer.


Yeah, I was wondering at what point it makes sense to sell an RV before it depreciates too much. I have a class C that is a couple of years old, and I have finally fixed most of the issues and have made some nice upgrades to it, so I'd like to keep it for awhile. But is there a certain age or mileage where it makes more financial sense to sell it.

That's an interesting B+ there. It looks lifted. Is it 4WD?


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## kuuk (May 26, 2008)

Yes it has a 3.5 inch lift with heavier duty front springs and 32" all terrain tires. Not 4WD as I just wanted some ground clearance, it actually drives better than stock. Mine is a 2008 with only 31k miles on it, but yeah I think it's time to sell as much as I'd like to keep it.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Kudos to Ladmo from another thread.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^ Karma prevails!


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cleared2land said:


> ^^^^ Karma prevails!


Ya gotta love it.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

Friend is getting a Promaster with a Wayfarer Walter interior.



> WALTER CAMPER VAN CONVERSION KIT
> This is the complete Walter Camper Van Conversion Kit for the RAM Promaster 1500 or 2500, 136″ wheelbase, high roof van. If you're looking for the Wally Conversion Kit for the RAM Promaster City Cargo, click HERE.
> 
> The complete Walter kit comes with: flooring, with integrated cargo management tracks, wall and ceiling paneling with 100% natural wool insulation, perimeter shelving, a kitchen galley with 5 gallon fresh and grey water tanks, sink and hand pump, bed platform, boot box and privacy paneling for the sliding and rear door window areas.


I'd hop on this if were available in the US (currently UK only):  Swift Basecamp The promo video makes it obvious it's ideal for mountainbikers.

Or this wee thing -- again, only available in UK:


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

That Swift Basecamp is nice! Someone needs to tell the guy in the video: No tights (or leg warmers) with a short sleeve jersey.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

ddoh said:


> That Swift Basecamp is nice! Someone needs to tell the guy in the video: No tights (or leg warmers) with a short sleeve jersey.


wtf bicycle fashion police?


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

June Bug said:


> Friend is getting a Promaster with a Wayfarer Walter interior.
> 
> I'd hop on this if were available in the US (currently UK only):  Swift Basecamp The promo video makes it obvious it's ideal for mountainbikers.
> 
> Or this wee thing -- again, only available in UK:


If you want something small that can hold bikes inside the Forest River No-Bo 10.6 series might be right up your alley. I've seen them with roof mounted tents as well, turning the actual trailer into a sitting and storage place.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> You want an F350 4 x 4 van conversion or similar, that's the only way you'll get 10k towing from a van. Personally, towing 10k is a dually job, but it's your life. I've seen bad things happen when a small vehicle is towing a big load.
> 
> I use my Promaster for traveling, camping, and construction. Fold up dinette gives me the space to haul two tons of material that is safe and protected from the weather. There is nothing better than loading sheetrock into your van laying flat and not having to worry about breaking sheets in the back of a truck.
> 
> ...


You think towing 10k with a SRW 1 ton is suicide, but a few paragraphs later you're advising pulling a trailer with a fwd van?


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

formica said:


> wtf bicycle fashion police?


No, I believe in 'ride your own ride'. I'd always heard that rule, but never really thought about it. But that guy really kinda jumps out. Made me think of it.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

ddoh said:


> That Swift Basecamp is nice! Someone needs to tell the guy in the video: No tights (or leg warmers) with a short sleeve jersey.





formica said:


> wtf bicycle fashion police?


Lol
I don't see a problem with it.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Just brought a new Lance 1475 home. It won't see use for several months, but it turns out that January is a great time for lowball offers in Oregon.

I would have gone a more spartan route, but Mrs. Kosmo is very excited.

Which will mean more mtb road trips and that is always good!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Clearly you have never towed with a Promaster. You must think that the weight needs to be over the drive wheels to keep from slipping, but consider the max tongue weight for a dually is 500#, do you honestly think that this "little bit of weight" will make a RWD truck or van rear end get good traction?

The Promaster with 2k over it's front drive wheels gets fat better traction than a RWD van or truck, hence my comment about an AWD or FWD van

I've towed loaders and excavators in the 5-6k range and the van is beast. With all the weight up front, the van pulls like a pack of sled dogs, very well balanced vehicle., excellent traction.

You should look up the videos where they raced the Promaster around a track, it really does handle better than any other van out there by a large margin.

The Promaster is far and away the best big van on the market unless you want AWD.



twodownzero said:


> You think towing 10k with a SRW 1 ton is suicide, but a few paragraphs later you're advising pulling a trailer with a fwd van?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Clearly you have never towed with a Promaster. You must think that the weight needs to be over the drive wheels to keep from slipping, but consider the max tongue weight for a dually is 500#, do you honestly think that this "little bit of weight" will make a RWD truck or van rear end get good traction?
> 
> The Promaster with 2k over it's front drive wheels gets fat better traction than a RWD van or truck, hence my comment about an AWD or FWD van
> 
> ...


I believe you said you have the diesel version? Fiat killed that, and the 3.6L V6 is the only engine offered in the Promaster now. I had the same engine in my 2014 Wrangler, and it would barely tow my 3500lb camping trailer, and that was even with a manual trans. Granted, I was towing over 11,000 foot passes on a regular basis, but no way would I go with that engine to do any kind of towing. Also, I had three *major* engine issues in 60,000 miles, which is why I dumped the Wrangler. Thank goodness Wranglers have insane resale value. I had a Wrangler Unlimited and the tow dynamics were fine, it was just the crap power that made me hate towing with it. The 3.6L has very little torque on the low end, so you had to rev it to the moon to get it to go up a hill. Normally aspirated made it really suck at high altitudes.

When I get a van to do a camping conversion three-four years from now, it is probably going to be a Transit with the 3.5L Ecoboost and a Quigley 4x4 conversion. Same cost as a Sprinter 4x4, but heavier duty and tons more power.

A 2019 Sprinter 4x4 Crew, 144" WB, high roof, with just a few options, is over $60K. The 4x4 option alone is over $12,000! If you can cut a good deal on the Transit, you can get it converted and come up equal or even a little less than the Sprinter 4x4. Quigley uses 90% standard F150 parts to do the conversion and you get the same warranty as the van itself. They have been converting vans to 4x4 for decades.


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> I believe you said you have the diesel version? Fiat killed that, and the 3.6L V6 is the only engine offered in the Promaster now. I had the same engine in my 2014 Wrangler, and it would barely tow my 3500lb camping trailer, and that was even with a manual trans. Granted, I was towing over 11,000 foot passes on a regular basis, but no way would I go with that engine to do any kind of towing. Also, I had three *major* engine issues in 60,000 miles, which is why I dumped the Wrangler. Thank goodness Wranglers have insane resale value. I had a Wrangler Unlimited and the tow dynamics were fine, it was just the crap power that made me hate towing with it. The 3.6L has very little torque on the low end, so you had to rev it to the moon to get it to go up a hill. Normally aspirated made it really suck at high altitudes.
> 
> When I get a van to do a camping conversion three-four years from now, it is probably going to be a Transit with the 3.5L Ecoboost and a Quigley 4x4 conversion. Same cost as a Sprinter 4x4, but heavier duty and tons more power.
> 
> A 2019 Sprinter 4x4 Crew, 144" WB, high roof, with just a few options, is over $60K. The 4x4 option alone is over $12,000! If you can cut a good deal on the Transit, you can get it converted and come up equal or even a little less than the Sprinter 4x4. Quigley uses 90% standard F150 parts to do the conversion and you get the same warranty as the van itself. They have been converting vans to 4x4 for decades.


And you'll have ford maintenance costs rather than MB, and F150 like parts availability and dealer network. What pushed me to ford was lower maintenance cost and better dealer network than MB, and fear of Fiat/Dodge quality. The square sides of the promaster are tempting, but life is too short to gamble on their QC.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

No issues in four years and 70k of use, still makes me smile when I walk out to it in the mornings.

I waited a few years for this van to come to the states.

Hands down best van I've ever owned.

Love Fiat and love what they've done/doing for Chrysler.

Take the test: drive each of the big euro styled vans, back to back, then pick the one that rides and handles best. It's a no brainer, the Promaster is the boss.

It is sad the diesel motor is reportedly being cut, but it may just be a one year thing while they switch over to the eco diesel used in the trucks.

I'll drive mine for 200k, then see what's new.



ACree said:


> And you'll have ford maintenance costs rather than MB, and F150 like parts availability and dealer network. What pushed me to ford was lower maintenance cost and better dealer network than MB, and fear of Fiat/Dodge quality. The square sides of the promaster are tempting, but life is too short to gamble on their QC.


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

Been looking to get out of my tent and into a van. 

Currently have a Dodge Ecodiesel and will never buy another FCA product.

Have a few friends with Sprinters and they all love them. Biggest drawback to getting a 4x4 is the wait. About 9 months. 

Ordered a 144 wb diesel 4x4. Not loaded but not stripped either. Cockpit of the 2019s is much nicer than the previous years. 

Not doing a conversion. Cot. Arb fridge. Done. 

Can't wait for it to show up. 


Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> No issues in four years and 70k of use, still makes me smile when I walk out to it in the mornings.
> 
> I waited a few years for this van to come to the states.
> 
> ...


It could ride like a Cadillac and handle like a Porsche, but a new one would still have that POS 3.6L engine. They put that engine in just about everything they make, and it blows up in every application. Cylinder head problems, rear main seal problems, oil pan seal problems, oil cooler leaks, sludge build up in the cooling system, misfires, rocker arms, cam followers, the list goes on and on. On top of that, Fiat electronics fail at an alarming rate, so even if you miraculously get a solid 3.6L, your engine controller, fuse box, CAN bus and everything else are ticking time bombs. And then try to get a Fiat dealer to support you. LMAO. They push back on *everything* until you rub their noses in it.

My Chevy pickups go over 200K without major issues. My 4Runners hit 300K without major issues. Wake me up when a Fiat van can go even 150K without causing a ton of grief. I learned my lesson with my Jeep Wranglemon.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I am sorry you feel like life has given you such a sour turn, but my experiences are very different from yours.

My posting is to provide information to those who can appreciate it, not to argue with a negative nancy.

From my expereince, the Promaster has many positive attributes that make it a wise choice for an RV chassis or stand alone van including lowest price to purchase, front wheel drive, lowest load height, and widest body.

I have had nothing but positive experiences with my Promaster as I previously mentioned. I can say the same about all Chrysler products I have owned including my wife's current vehicle, a 2012 Jeep Wrangler, which also brings a smile to her face every time she drives it.

Let's try to focus on the positives and leave the negatives at home, ie if ya got nothin' good to say, then don't say nothin' at all 



honkinunit said:


> It could ride like a Cadillac and handle like a Porsche, but a new one would still have that POS 3.6L engine. They put that engine in just about everything they make, and it blows up in every application. Cylinder head problems, rear main seal problems, oil pan seal problems, oil cooler leaks, sludge build up in the cooling system, misfires, rocker arms, cam followers, the list goes on and on. On top of that, Fiat electronics fail at an alarming rate, so even if you miraculously get a solid 3.6L, your engine controller, fuse box, CAN bus and everything else are ticking time bombs. And then try to get a Fiat dealer to support you. LMAO. They push back on *everything* until you rub their noses in it.
> 
> My Chevy pickups go over 200K without major issues. My 4Runners hit 300K without major issues. Wake me up when a Fiat van can go even 150K without causing a ton of grief. I learned my lesson with my Jeep Wranglemon.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

:thumbsup:


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> I am sorry you feel like life has given you such a sour turn, but my experiences are very different from yours.
> 
> My posting is to provide information to those who can appreciate it, not to argue with a negative nancy.
> 
> ...


I just think your experience with FCA products is not typical. Couple that with the Uber fan boy posts and those that have had dissimilar experiences find it a bit much

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Spring is just around the corner and I'm probing to what others have in the works for their RV or camping vehicles this travel season.


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> I am sorry you feel like life has given you such a sour turn, but my experiences are very different from yours.
> 
> My posting is to provide information to those who can appreciate it, not to argue with a negative nancy.
> 
> ...


I've had similar positive experiences with the Promaster, FWIW.


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

Cleared2land said:


> Spring is just around the corner and I'm probing to what others have in the works for their RV or camping vehicles this travel season.


Wsup C2L,
We've spent the last 8 months or so researching RV's ( and pickup trucks/ my Element has 300k+ on it !) after much consideration we've decide on a Stryker 2613 Toy Hauler. Ive never been a fan of / or been able to fit in those rv dinettes that are built for humans 4' tall and under so the toy hauler is a great option. It has a huge garage area for bikes / surf boards / etc, ( designed for Harleys / ATV's etc ) . The wife required a full bath / king size bed and a decent kitchen and this has it, ( I dont mind those things either now that I'm in my 50's !) At 31' and 7.7k#'s empty it still gets me in most State / Federal parks, and Ive upgraded the batteries/ charger for optimal boondocking, ( came with a 4k generator and I'll be getting solar I'm sure at some point).
We have lots of Mountain bike camping excursions and surf trips planned ! Ill add a pic later!


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^ I have seen a few do some cool mods in the garage of toy haulers. You got any plans to customize?


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

Cleared2land said:


> ^^^^ I have seen a few do some cool mods in the garage of toy haulers. You got any plans to customize?


Ive already removed one side of the Happijack to make room for three SUPs/two bikes/ kitchen table. this way I can have the other couch/seat down while all that stuff is in the garage, table can be open also. I'm considering drilling extra holes to have more height options for the upper queen bed. That happijack is a unique contraption that takes getting used too! Also made a wooden "rack" to hold all that stuff secure while riding down the road. 
Considering a mod to the window/door screen that came stock that is used while the garage door is in deck mode, we'll see how it works first. 
I said earlier , I added some upgrades to the electric system , Progressive Industries hard wired EMS, PD Wildkat upgrade converter/charger, Victron BMV 712 battery monitor, and two Fullriver 6v 220ah AGM batteries w RVLockbox. solar to come later prolly. 
The wife has loaded the kitchen/bath/bedroom with cool stuff.
I was obsessing over wheel chocks for a while ...got that handled, lol !! Those plastic ones from the RV shops are garbage, I have to park it on a 3% grade in my drive....wasnt messing around. Got some really nice heavy duty chocks online.
As with rvs in general, Ive fixed a ton of stuff that was put together half-assed from factory.
What mods / ideas have you seen?!!!


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I have seen some complete toy hauler garages with bike stands, full tool boxes, spray wash, power & lights.


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

Cleared2land said:


> I have seen some complete toy hauler garages with bike stands, full tool boxes, spray wash, power & lights.


 Google searching that now ! Thinking of using these to build a bike rack when travleing, https://www.amazon.com/Kuat-Dirtbag...BKQQGGKBF9J&psc=1&refRID=7ZPQ95KRDBKQQGGKBF9J


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## cbrossman (Mar 23, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> When I get a van to do a camping conversion three-four years from now, it is probably going to be a Transit with the 3.5L Ecoboost and a Quigley 4x4 conversion. Same cost as a Sprinter 4x4, but heavier duty and tons more power.


FYI, 2020 Transits will have an AWD option along with 10 speed transmission and perhaps the Gen 2 Ecoboost


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

cbrossman said:


> FYI, 2020 Transits will have an AWD option along with 10 speed transmission and perhaps the Gen 2 Ecoboost


Why do people think the Quigley Transit is more HD than the Sprinter 4x4?

More power for sure but I don't see the HD aspect

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

sbd said:


> Why do people think the Quigley Transit is more HD than the Sprinter 4x4?
> 
> More power for sure but I don't see the HD aspect
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Quigley basically puts the F150 4x4 drivetrain under the Transit. F150s can tow over 12,000lb, and the axles, transmission, driveshafts, and transfer case have to be able to handle the torque of the 3.5TT while pulling 18,400 lb (GCWR - Gross combined weight rating). The Quigley Transit GCWR is not rated that high, apparently either due to towing dynamics or some kind of frame flex, but the drivetrain can handle it.

The 2019 Sprinter has a max GCWR of 15,000lb, but that is the 3500 version with dual rear wheels. I'm sure it rides like a buckboard. The 2500 version is 13,550, still impressive.

I think if the new Sprinter AWD/4x4 proves itself for a few years, it will gain a great reputation.

I don't know much about the 2020 Transit AWD system, but I am sorely disappointed there is no low range available. That alone would tip me to either a Quigley Conversion or a Sprinter. I live on a very steep dirt road, and I back my F150 into its parking spot in 4-low every single day.


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> Quigley basically puts the F150 4x4 drivetrain under the Transit. F150s can tow over 12,000lb, and the axles, transmission, driveshafts, and transfer case have to be able to handle the torque of the 3.5TT while pulling 18,400 lb (GCWR - Gross combined weight rating). The Quigley Transit GCWR is not rated that high, apparently either due to towing dynamics or some kind of frame flex, but the drivetrain can handle it.
> 
> The 2019 Sprinter has a max GCWR of 15,000lb, but that is the 3500 version with dual rear wheels. I'm sure it rides like a buckboard. The 2500 version is 13,550, still impressive.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info.

Other than a new transmission I don't think the Sprinter 4x4 drivetrain is any difference

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yup, looks interesting, better price point than Sprinter, no diesel option with AWD, nor is is it designed for rock crawling (no hi/lo), but for a daily driver it'd be a nice option. It'll also be less expensive to fix and better dealer access.

My biggest issue with these big vans is fuel mileage. I get 22-24 all day long in my Promaster, and though it's not AWD, the front wheel drive is very capable in slippery conditions. Having had a rear wheel drive Sprinter, I'd never ever get another van without FWD or AWD ... but it's gotta get at least 20 mpg.

I have the shortest euro van now, a Promaster 118, set up with a convertible dinette/bed. It's a great daily driver and works fine for trips, but I'd like to have s little more height and length. My plan was to get a Promaster 136 high, put a sleep platform on height adjustable riders, leave the bed installed full time and adjust height to my needs. Pressed into the ceiling I'd still have decent height underneath and with bikes underneath I could still sleep on the bed; like s bunk bed, way up high 

If the AWD transit gets decent mpg without diesel, that'd reduce fuss, reduce fuel cost, and I'd get added traction for moderate iff road and slippery conditions. No added deck height with the AWD is nice, though I still want a larger wheel diameter for clearance. Hopefully they plan out the wheel wells for larger tires.

I'll have over 100k on my Promaster by the time the AWD Transits are out and about, gonna see how year one goes before buying, but it's a nice option for sure.



cbrossman said:


> FYI, 2020 Transits will have an AWD option along with 10 speed transmission and perhaps the Gen 2 Ecoboost


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> I have the shortest euro van now, a Promaster 118, set up with a convertible dinette/bed. My plan was to get a Promaster 136 high, put a sleep platform on height adjustable riders, leave the bed installed full time and adjust height to my needs. Pressed into the ceiling I'd still have decent height underneath and with bikes underneath I could still sleep on the bed; like s bunk bed, way up high


How about posting some photos of your setup? I have heard of another that did a similar bed lift, but commented that they never had the need to lift it up, it always remained in a fixed position.



> I'd get added traction for moderate iff road and slippery conditions. No added deck height with the AWD is nice, though I still want a larger wheel diameter for clearance. Hopefully they plan out the wheel wells for larger tires.


Added traction? Tires? Traction mats?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

If I get a minute I'll post pics, you can probably find my build details on the Promaster forum. I have a folding dinette now, the bed lift would be for a high roof van.

Since my van is a daily driver and I haul construction materials, bikes, dogs, etc... on a daily basis, my bed would be up unless we were sleeping on it. I'd probably have a fold down gaucho bed for the wife to nap, though she seems to do pretty well with the swivel seat and reclining.

I have such a compact little van now, it'd be hard to go to a bigger van for daily use.



Cleared2land said:


> How about posting some photos of your setup? I have heard of another that did a similar bed lift, but commented that they never had the need to lift it up, it always remained in a fixed position.
> 
> Added traction? Tires? Traction mats?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Having a daily driver can place a crimp on those dream builds.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ah, got my camper out the other day. Just a single overnight, but conditions were glorious. Got some riding in, and some much needed relaxation. Finally finished installing the brake controller on the subie, so of course I needed a test trip. For that matter, my wife is going to Roam Fest in May, and will be taking the camper by herself. So she needed practice hooking the trailer up, setting it up, and such. She's pulled the thing hundreds of miles already, so that's not an issue. But it's been a little while.

Nice thing about Tsali is that it sits in the shadow of much more popular riding areas. It's nice xc trail. Nothing terribly fancy these days (but I remember when it was hot news shortly after it was built). As such, it's never hugely crowded. There always seems to be someone there...but you might ride everything open that day and never see another rider. Word from the campground host is that mt bikers outnumber horses 30-1 even still (which tells me horse use is REALLY light). He thinks more trails should be open to bikes every day. Honestly, I think the trails should be open to everyone every day. The place doesn't seem busy enough to warrant the alternating use system it currently employs.


0423191439 by Nate, on Flickr

The campground was probably less than 1/4 full. Got my pick of sites and was able to find one that was both level enough for easy setup of the camper AND reasonably shady with an easy walk to the showers.


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

Nice!

My SO never did want to drive with a trailer (Chalet A frame pop up), which was one consideration in moving to a van instead.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Cleared2land said:


> Having a daily driver can place a crimp on those dream builds.


Not in the least. I find the daily driver makes me more realistic about my needs vs focusing on thneeds.

It's like going backpacking and choosing a pack that limits what you can carry. This concept is really helpful in creating a way of living that is not excessive and more manageable.

I own a home, ten acres, surrounded by BLM, three miles of trails built in, all kinds of critters, just a wonderful place to be. Literally, my home is a vacation.

A daily driver with benefits is a nice tool for avoiding the RV yard art that adorns many homes.

I really doubt that I'll ever live in an RV, it's just not my style, but if I ever do locums work far from home, I'd probably have a dedicated RV that I could park and use as a temporary base camp.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> ah, got my camper out the other day. Just a single overnight, but conditions were glorious. Got some riding in, and some much needed relaxation. Finally finished installing the brake controller on the subie, so of course I needed a test trip. For that matter, my wife is going to Roam Fest in May, and will be taking the camper by herself. So she needed practice hooking the trailer up, setting it up, and such. She's pulled the thing hundreds of miles already, so that's not an issue. But it's been a little while.
> 
> Nice thing about Tsali is that it sits in the shadow of much more popular riding areas. It's nice xc trail. Nothing terribly fancy these days (but I remember when it was hot news shortly after it was built). As such, it's never hugely crowded. There always seems to be someone there...but you might ride everything open that day and never see another rider. Word from the campground host is that mt bikers outnumber horses 30-1 even still (which tells me horse use is REALLY light). He thinks more trails should be open to bikes every day. Honestly, I think the trails should be open to everyone every day. The place doesn't seem busy enough to warrant the alternating use system it currently employs.
> 
> ...


Tsali gets busy enough for the rotating use, you just ain't been there when it's busy. But I'll agree, I find the system annoying as hell, but it's just how they set it up.

The trails are just XC, not anything to write home about, often covered in mud pits, there are certainly better trail networks in that area that are more worthy.

Check out riding in the Knoxville area, Oak Ridge (Haw Ridge), Panther Creek, Norris, etc... There's also some great stuff in SW Virginia and down around Charttanooga.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Tsali gets busy enough for the rotating use, you just ain't been there when it's busy. But I'll agree, I find the system annoying as hell, but it's just how they set it up.
> 
> The trails are just XC, not anything to write home about, often covered in mud pits, there are certainly better trail networks in that area that are more worthy.
> 
> Check out riding in the Knoxville area, Oak Ridge (Haw Ridge), Panther Creek, Norris, etc... There's also some great stuff in SW Virginia and down around Charttanooga.


Meh. Tsali is an hour from my house, it is never that busy when I go, and the campground is the sort of place where I can ride out of camp.

Mud has never been any more of an issue for me there than it is anywhere else I go. And compared to some, much less of one.

The trails are nice enough for me to visit a couple times a year. Sure, there are a ton of options in the general area, but the particular combination of characteristics Tsali has means it will always be one of my options. Especially when I want a short trip. Finding a campsite site in Pisgah can be a challenge at a lot of places, so I welcome a spot where I usually don't have to worry.

Besides, it's a place my wife likes. So when she wants to go, I don't argue.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Nice rig, Harold.


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

Harold said:


> Meh. Tsali is an hour from my house, it is never that busy when I go, and the campground is the sort of place where I can ride out of camp.
> 
> Mud has never been any more of an issue for me there than it is anywhere else I go. And compared to some, much less of one.
> 
> ...


Ya nice rig H !!
We visited Tsali on 4/16 first time. Wanted to scope out a future trip with our 31' Toy Hauler. Looked like it was doable on a few campsites. Did Thomson and Mouse . Def a great place to get away to with wife who isnt hard core biker. Nothing over the top but still fun trails ! Looking forward to the other side someday ! ( we were staying at Happy Holiday up in Cherokee...hit Fire Mountain every morning !


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## mtn_cyclist (Oct 29, 2013)

My toy hauler.


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

mtn_cyclist said:


> My toy hauler.
> View attachment 1249388


How did you get your dinette table to attach to the Happijack?! I like it. Is the table heavy?


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## mtn_cyclist (Oct 29, 2013)

It's a double decker thing. The bottom level is a big passion pit couch thing that also turns into a dinette. The upper level is a bed.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Finally got back to working on my van, two year hiatus while I remodeled a couple houses.

Adding bulkhead "shoveit" storage over the folding dinette, driver side wall mounted full height jump seats with shoulder harnesses installed on L Track, Dobinson 40L portable fridge under the jump seats, battery/converter/breaker system under the driver seat. Also installed low seat bases on both seats, this makes it more comfortable for the passenger and it allows me more adjustability on the driver side.

My van doubles as a dog transporter, construction material hauler, and all around grubby vehicle and daily driver, so think of it as a truck with benefits 

Someday I will go a little fancier, figuring on a Transit AWD mid height 140 wheelbase with a adjustable height platform bed and some more build it stuff.

Love this van, averaging City 22mpg/Hwy 26mpg, even in in winter when diesels typicall do poorly and driving locally I still get 20mpg.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

mtn_cyclist said:


> My toy hauler.
> View attachment 1249388


You can keep the bike wheels on your bike if you use a wall mounted clamp that attaches to the seat post. To keep the bike from squirming around, attach to the floor a short piece of 3-4" PVC pipe with the center cut out, the cut out will "trap" front wheel or you can use a strap.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Nice rigs, guys. This all makes men miss my Sprinter, which got rear-ended and rolled. 
I'm driving a '13 Chevy express van now, excellent mech. but looks like a beater.


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## rob214 (Apr 18, 2019)

this thread has been very educational for me so thanks, I'm wondering where do I go to learn about camping? I'm like you guys and I ride Mtb and road bikes. as I approach the idea of one day retiring I'm thinking some sort of small camper that my wife and I can travel around in to different cycling destinations as well as see the country and state parks. but it seems as I'm learning it's not really as inexpensive as I would think. I really need to learn the ins and outs of traveling this way before I just jump in with an investment I may regret.
any websites or suggestions you could make to help me I greatly appreciate 
rob


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## YJ Bill (Jul 16, 2013)

rob214 said:


> this thread has been very educational for me so thanks, I'm wondering where do I go to learn about camping? I'm like you guys and I ride Mtb and road bikes. as I approach the idea of one day retiring I'm thinking some sort of small camper that my wife and I can travel around in to different cycling destinations as well as see the country and state parks. but it seems as I'm learning it's not really as inexpensive as I would think. I really need to learn the ins and outs of traveling this way before I just jump in with an investment I may regret.
> any websites or suggestions you could make to help me I greatly appreciate
> rob


Rv.net and irv2.com


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## rob214 (Apr 18, 2019)

thanks


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

Here's my rig, Escape 17B, and here's a link that should help your learning curve.Escape Trailer Owners Community
View attachment 1252690


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## rob214 (Apr 18, 2019)

so as a Mtb 'er and road biker and possibly a one day camper. how and what do you do to secure your bikes and gear while out doing other things like grocery shopping or sight seeing or out to dinner at night or whatever would take you away from the campsite. I know I'm thinking like I'm at my home but here at home I can look my stuff in my garage and out of sight and reasonably secure.
I see so many great photo's of camping in beautiful places but it looks awful far out into the boonies what about hanging with other riders or do you guys ride alone which I don't really like to do. my wife doesn't really ride much or far but I would not like to get hurt and be somewhere she couldn't get to me. also I've never been to a Mtb park as there are none around here but they seem to be pricey and would not be something I could do often on a fixed income? I don't really think I would like to be in an rv park and maybe I have a wrong idea of them but the only times I have ever been to some we're with my ex inlaws and it was filled with old folks who just sat around and gossiped about other old folks . 

thanks
Robert


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

rob214 said:


> so as a Mtb 'er and road biker and possibly a one day camper. how and what do you do to secure your bikes and gear while out doing other things like grocery shopping or sight seeing or out to dinner at night or whatever would take you away from the campsite. I know I'm thinking like I'm at my home but here at home I can look my stuff in my garage and out of sight and reasonably secure.
> I see so many great photo's of camping in beautiful places but it looks awful far out into the boonies what about hanging with other riders or do you guys ride alone which I don't really like to do. my wife doesn't really ride much or far but I would not like to get hurt and be somewhere she couldn't get to me. also I've never been to a Mtb park as there are none around here but they seem to be pricey and would not be something I could do often on a fixed income? I don't really think I would like to be in an rv park and maybe I have a wrong idea of them but the only times I have ever been to some we're with my ex inlaws and it was filled with old folks who just sat around and gossiped about other old folks .
> 
> thanks
> Robert


Camping can be a lot of different things depending on what's available and what you want.

The bigger your rig, the less "out there" you can generally get with it. You can have a camper that requires shore power to be comfortable, or you can get something that will be awesome parked off the side of a 4wd trail in the middle of the desert. I generally prefer something smaller and more flexible so I can use as many facilities as I can. You have to decide your priorities.

My little camper can be pulled by a 4cyl vehicle, I can make use of shore power, I can boondock it, and I can use truck stops and parking lots. I can squeeze it into tight places. I cannot off-road with it. Many private rv parks require you to be inside your camper within certain hours and mine won't work for that because it is so minimal that I have to cook outside.

Park campgrounds are almost 100% fair game. I can use some free boondock sites in national forests in my area if they have enough space to park.

As for bike security - locks. Lock them to your rack, or to trees, or picnic tables. Some setups let you store bikes inside out of sight. Toy haulers, vans, pickup trucks w/camper shells, etc if that is a priority for you.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

rob214 said:


> so as a Mtb 'er and road biker and possibly a one day camper. how and what do you do to secure your bikes and gear while out doing other things like grocery shopping or sight seeing or out to dinner at night or whatever would take you away from the campsite. I know I'm thinking like I'm at my home but here at home I can look my stuff in my garage and out of sight and reasonably secure.
> 
> thanks
> Robert


I have never had any problem while boondocking, even when gone all day. I boondock pretty far off the beaten track, on backroads seldom traveled. If I feel a need to lock up my bikes or other items, a simple cable lock around the bumper deters the opportunistic grab-and-scrams. Place them on the back side of where you are parked, so they are not readily visible from the road, and throw a camo tarp over them (a couple yards of camo cloth from Walmart). The casual drive by may not readily see them, where a uncovered brightly colored object may stand out. In a developed campground, RVers tend to watch out for one another. Someone slowly driving around looking at rigs gets spotted right away, and most RVers whip out their cell phone cameras and record suspicious vehicles.

Three times someone has broken into and stolen something from my RV. All three times it was parked at a storage lot with security.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

dave54 said:


> Three times someone has broken into and stolen something from my RV. All three times it was parked at a storage lot with security.[/QUOTE
> 
> ht's a bit surprising, but I hear that in many places thieves zoom right in on the 'stealth-type" rv rigs. As the real world economy sinks lower and lower, the level of sophistication among thieves goes higher and higher.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Necessity is the mother of invention. 

A universal phrase that applies across all platforms.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

rob214 said:


> so as a Mtb 'er and road biker and possibly a one day camper. how and what do you do to secure your bikes and gear while out doing other things like grocery shopping or sight seeing or out to dinner at night or whatever would take you away from the campsite. I know I'm thinking like I'm at my home but here at home I can look my stuff in my garage and out of sight and reasonably secure.
> I see so many great photo's of camping in beautiful places but it looks awful far out into the boonies what about hanging with other riders or do you guys ride alone which I don't really like to do. my wife doesn't really ride much or far but I would not like to get hurt and be somewhere she couldn't get to me. also I've never been to a Mtb park as there are none around here but they seem to be pricey and would not be something I could do often on a fixed income? I don't really think I would like to be in an rv park and maybe I have a wrong idea of them but the only times I have ever been to some we're with my ex inlaws and it was filled with old folks who just sat around and gossiped about other old folks .
> 
> thanks
> Robert


Right now If I have my bike with me it goes in the basement of the rig (wheels off) when not in use. We've been thinking of picking up one of these though. . . lockable and can hold several bikes


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Personally I could not tolerate the RV life. After 45 years of touring in the concert biz, and living most of my working life on tour buses from the old Eagles to the newer Van Hools, I am done with that! 3 years ago I had an epiphany on the side of a Florida freeway next to a broken down bus at 4am: I did NOT need that **** any more! I did actually need a ****, but in deference to my fellow bus mates, decided not to partake. I do confess that I would whenever possible on a long day off driving, find a lake or something where we could blow the hotel money on boats and beer for some fun times, and I enjoyed that, but the moving lifestyle ain't for me any more.
2 of our best friends did actually finish the process of selling everything up and downsizing into a 5th wheel and truck, and 2 weeks ago set off on their retirement plan. They are doing the seasonal workamper thing, interspersed with bumming round to places they have always wanted to see but never did. It is a choice, and I hope they like it. They are not young tho, so I think they're gonna find the work thing a struggle, but they are locked in now... Myself I am into having a real bathroom, a big tub to soak in, and a couch that does not rock n roll...


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

rockerc said:


> Personally I could not tolerate the RV life. After 45 years of touring in the concert biz, and living most of my working life on tour buses from the old Eagles to the newer Van Hools, I am done with that! 3 years ago I had an epiphany on the side of a Florida freeway next to a broken down bus at 4am: I did NOT need that **** any more! I did actually need a ****, but in deference to my fellow bus mates, decided not to partake. I do confess that I would whenever possible on a long day off driving, find a lake or something where we could blow the hotel money on boats and beer for some fun times, and I enjoyed that, but the moving lifestyle ain't for me any more.
> 2 of our best friends did actually finish the process of selling everything up and downsizing into a 5th wheel and truck, and 2 weeks ago set off on their retirement plan. They are doing the seasonal workamper thing, interspersed with bumming round to places they have always wanted to see but never did. It is a choice, and I hope they like it. They are not young tho, so I think they're gonna find the work thing a struggle, but they are locked in now... Myself I am into having a real bathroom, a big tub to soak in, and a couch that does not rock n roll...


I imagine there'd be a sizeable difference to living in a proper DPRV vs. a tour bus. A decent sized RV with multiple slides, built for two people to live in, is not the same as a tour bus. Granted they aren't cheap either. . . .

That said, as much as we love our RV (we just got back from a 10 day trip) I couldn't see living in it full time. I like having all the space a house provides, and all that can be done with it. On the flip side of things, I really don't get the "#VanLife" nonsense.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I have a cousin who retired and she has been RVing full time since 2015. She has a 5th wheel and is traveling all over the country, and she loves it. She and a couple friends are currently hiking the entire Appalachian Trail, and just passed the half way point.

i think the ideal for me, if I could afford it, would be to travel around the country in an RV about 3 months out of the year.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

rob214 said:


> so as a Mtb 'er and road biker and possibly a one day camper. how and what do you do to secure your bikes and gear while out doing other things like grocery shopping or sight seeing or out to dinner at night or whatever would take you away from the campsite. I know I'm thinking like I'm at my home but here at home I can look my stuff in my garage and out of sight and reasonably secure.
> 
> thanks
> Robert


I get this. I (unfortunately) live in a city where bike thieves are rampant. I do not ever leave my bikes on my rig, even locked to a rack. If I don't have line-of-sight, or bring them in with me, I go home and drop the bikes off into the secure home location.

That being said, when hub and I travel with the bikes and van, either one of us stays with them while the other grocery shops, or we cram both of them inside the vehicle.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

JillRide45 said:


> Does the Promaster run on rear duallies? If so maybe that is why no spare, you can always use one of the inner wheels. Beautiful rig, enjoy!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The 24' has dual. I've got the 21' version, no duals. The generator, propane etc take up the spare location. We ended up putting the spare on the roof.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

I'm looking at 2-3 VERY small campers and I'm seeing something called a cassette toilet, where the 5-gallon waste tank is removable and you can wheel it away and dump it in a station or bathroom. Looks like kind of a cool idea, but at 57 years of age, I'm concerned about being able to muscle it around and empty since a full tank is 40-50 pounds. Anyone on here used or using such a system?


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

SteveF said:


> I'm looking at 2-3 VERY small campers and I'm seeing something called a cassette toilet, where the 5-gallon waste tank is removable and you can wheel it away and dump it in a station or bathroom. Looks like kind of a cool idea, but at 57 years of age, I'm concerned about being able to muscle it around and empty since a full tank is 40-50 pounds. Anyone on here used or using such a system?


There was one in my Prolite trailer I just sold. You wouldn't let it get full, empty it each day or two max. You only would want to do a #1 in it as it would be a chore to clean out anything else. We didn't even put paper in it. Can be done, but I would't want to do the cleaning. Don't forget to drain the flush fluid out for winter storage. I put in windshield washer fluid as antifreeze, put it in the car in the spring.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

temporoad said:


> There was one in my Prolite trailer I just sold. You wouldn't let it get full, empty it each day or two max. You only would want to do a #1 in it as it would be a chore to clean out anything else. We didn't even put paper in it. Can be done, but I would't want to do the cleaning. Don't forget to drain the flush fluid out for winter storage. I put in windshield washer fluid as antifreeze, put it in the car in the spring.


Thanks, I mostly want it for overnight peeing, so that shouldn't be a problem. Depending on the trim level of the camper, I could get one with no toilet at all, and maybe just get one of those free standing camping toilets. It's a similar style tank, just not built into the camper. Then I could just take it out in the winter and store it in the basement, no winterizing to worry about! Or just use a jug like I use now when I'm tenting it.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

rob214 said:


> so as a Mtb 'er and road biker and possibly a one day camper. how and what do you do to secure your bikes and gear while out doing other things like grocery shopping or sight seeing or out to dinner at night or whatever would take you away from the campsite.


That's easy: my RV is a toyhauler and all of those things go inside in the garage!


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

SteveF said:


> Thanks, I mostly want it for overnight peeing, so that shouldn't be a problem. Depending on the trim level of the camper, I could get one with no toilet at all, and maybe just get one of those free standing camping toilets. It's a similar style tank, just not built into the camper. Then I could just take it out in the winter and store it in the basement, no winterizing to worry about! Or just use a jug like I use now when I'm tenting it.


My wife appreciated the indoor toilet, at night I did too.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

SteveF said:


> I'm looking at 2-3 VERY small campers and I'm seeing something called a cassette toilet, where the 5-gallon waste tank is removable and you can wheel it away and dump it in a station or bathroom. Looks like kind of a cool idea, but at 57 years of age, I'm concerned about being able to muscle it around and empty since a full tank is 40-50 pounds. Anyone on here used or using such a system?


Got one, never use it, want it?


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

temporoad said:


> My wife appreciated the indoor toilet, at night I did too.


Heh, yeah, it's handy. It'll just be me so I don't really need a sit down terlet, just something to pee in. Hoping to keep this simple, one step above a teardrop, basically. How did you like your Prolite? I looked at those online, seem nice but they're a bit more money than I hope to spend.



Nurse Ben said:


> Got one, never use it, want it?


What, a camp toilet? I haven't even got a trailer yet, so probably not. Thanks, though!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Let's talk heating:

So I have played with various ideas including small generator and electric heat, propane heater, and diesel heater.

I decided against the generator for noise and aesthetic reasons.
I decided against the diesel heater for cost, complexity of install, and maintenance (carbon build up)

So it comes down to propane heating, though has it's own issues such as O2 depletion, CO build up, propane leak risks, and propane tank storage.

I started with a Camco Olympian Wave 3 (3000btu) catalytic heater, temporary set up using a flex line to a bottle set outside the van. Temps got as low as upper teens, heater put off heat, but I froze my arse off, the difference was marginal at best. At temps closer to freezing, the heater took the edge off, but still not all that effective.

As a catalytic heater without a fan, it's radiant heat so it does take more time and heat to warm a space, but I ran a ceiling fan and cracked a window, so the air in the van was moving.

I returned the heater and did some navel contemplation ....

I almost went with one of the other alternatives, but since I already had a tank and line, I decided to upgrade to a Wave 6 (6000btu). The Wave 6 is quite a bit larger, so instead of mounting it on a cabinet I bought a stand and a cover with the plan that it'll sit at the head of the van, behind the seats, pointing at the bed.

I just got the heater, it's been warm, so no testing yet.

The biggest issue now is where to put the propane tank. Technically, any tank larger than one of those 1# coleman disposables is not approved for use inside a vehicle due to offgassing/venting. Placing the tank on the outside of the vehicle is sketch (no bumper or rear door installs allowed due to safety), so it's only recommended if I do an under vehicle install which is costly and not worth the effort. 

So there's this thing called a propane tank "vault", essentially a sealed box that accommodates the tank, lid or door that is sealed, allows for tank off gassing through a bottom mounted vent. I have a 11# tank which holds 2.5 gallons of propane, it's tall and narrow so it'll fit between the rear door and fenderwell. 

I think this is the easiest way to go, so I guess it's time to build a box. 

I also have a hardwired propane gas sensor, a CO detector, and a Smoke detector. 
I always run the ceiling fan and I crack a window.

Pics to follow


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Ever since I met a coworker's brother who was inside a Suburban when a propane tank in the very back rolled over and exploded, I refuse to put a propane tank inside of a vehicle. Period. Luckily, I have a pickup and haul my cylinders in the bed when I refill. It freaks me out when I see people pull a 20lb tank out of the footwell of their car.






I hope that "vault" can contain a similar explosion. **** happens. I hope that vent doesn't go through the floor. Mud happens as well.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

^^^ I was very lucky once. I refilled a 20# tank on a frigid day on my way to a work site. Put it in my SUV and drove to the site. It was a lengthy drive so the car heated up nicely. I got to the site went in side to talk with co-workers. When I returned I opened the vehicle to a VERY strong smell of propane. I expect due to the tank getting warm the PRV went off releasing gas into the car. Thank God a spark was not created when the dome lights went on...


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> Let's talk heating:
> 
> So I have played with various ideas including small generator and electric heat, propane heater, and diesel heater.
> 
> ...


My pop top camper has an 18,000 BTU propane forced air heater. It heats the interior of the poptop pretty well even in winter with outside temps at zero. The heater is good for about 50 degrees with the insulated liner over the fabric portion of the poptop.

The propane bottle, used for heat and cooking, is inside a vault that opens to the outside through a ventilated door. The heater itself is about 18" x 18" by 10" or so and uses a concentric vent/intake for combustion gasses. The fan system in the heater has one motor that drives a two part fan box. One part runs the combustion system and draws and vents outside. The other side of the fan draws air from the inside of the camper and runs it through a water filled susceptor before returning it to the interior.

The problems:

1. The heater draws 4.4 amps continuous when running. This doesn't sound like much but remember that the camper batteries (three deep cycles) have about 30% to 40% of their full advertised charge at 20 degrees F. I don't leave the heat on at night and I dress quite warmly. Positive: No combustion gasses inside the camper.

2. The tank is also cold and I have to fill it in the mountains in the winter to get the proper vapor pressure at ambient temperatures. Lowland propane is not volatile enough at low temperatures.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yeah, that's why I went with a catalytic non-electric heater, I didn't want any draw down on my batter system.

I may pick up one of those heat activated fans to put on top of the heater.

I just have a little Promaster 118 van, two passenger, 8' x 6' cargo area behind the seats, so quite cozy. I insulated, but it's still a big steel box suspended in the cold air.

I'm thinking 6k btu should be sufficent, if not, then I'll wait till I upgrade before springing for a better system.



telemike said:


> My pop top camper has an 18,000 BTU propane forced air heater. It heats the interior of the poptop pretty well even in winter with outside temps at zero. The heater is good for about 50 degrees with the insulated liner over the fabric portion of the poptop.
> 
> The propane bottle, used for heat and cooking, is inside a vault that opens to the outside through a ventilated door. The heater itself is about 18" x 18" by 10" or so and uses a concentric vent/intake for combustion gasses. The fan system in the heater has one motor that drives a two part fan box. One part runs the combustion system and draws and vents outside. The other side of the fan draws air from the inside of the camper and runs it through a water filled susceptor before returning it to the interior.
> 
> ...


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

^^^ 6,000 btu should be ample for that size vehicle. Sorry I did not read the full description of your van, but some thermal drapes between the cab and cargo area would certainly help to reduce cubic footage heated and reduce heat lost through front and side windows.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

BlueCheesehead said:


> ^^^ 6,000 btu should be ample for that size vehicle. Sorry I did not read the full description of your van, but some thermal drapes between the cab and cargo area would certainly help to reduce cubic footage heated and reduce heat lost through front and side windows.


I thought 3000 btu would be enough, then my engeering buddy did a back of the hand conversion comparing a 1500w electric heater to my 3000btu gas heater and the electric heater was warmer!

Hopefully 6000 btu is enough, can't imagine it wouldn't be, though those Webasto heaters are 6k to 16k plus a fan.

And yeah, I should be covering the windows too ... but I like looking out the windows


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

honkinunit said:


> Ever since I met a coworker's brother who was inside a Suburban when a propane tank in the very back rolled over and exploded, I refuse to put a propane tank inside of a vehicle. Period. Luckily, I have a pickup and haul my cylinders in the bed when I refill. It freaks me out when I see people pull a 20lb tank out of the footwell of their car.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So yeah, it doesn't sound like you're to familiar with how propane is stored in an RV. The "vault" system is very common, most RV's have a vault for propane with exterior access unless the tank is under the vehicle and has a remote access.

and no, a propane vault is no more capable of containing an explosion than the gas tank that sits under your feet.

But I agree it is really stoopid to carry a propane tank unsecured in your vehicle and it is risky to keep an unvented tank in your vehicle.

People should read up about propane, most folks don't know the risks even in their own homes. How many folks who burn LP in their home for heat, water heating, etc... have a CO detector near each device? Even more important, how many have an explosive gas detector?

I'd bet my inheritance that very few folks have a propane detector in their homes BECAUSE it's not required by code unlike a CO detector.

Explosive gas detectors use a fair amount of electricity to operate, so they are hard wired in homes and RV's. They're not cheap, expect to pay $45 + for a good one.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Let's talk heating:
> 
> I decided against the diesel heater for cost, complexity of install, and maintenance (carbon build up)


I installed an Espar D2 diesel heater in my van this time last year.

Pretty amazing little unit. Not exactly easy to install, but if *I* could do it, in one (short, cold) day, it ain't all that hard.

Biggest problem now is that even set on low it *cooks* inside the van. At 0*f last winter, at 8k in Idaho, we had to have two small side windows open and we still kicked the covers off. #firstworld

So stinking nice to be able to step out of a river at 40* in the rain, push a button, then by the time I'm done stashing the boat and wet gear away in back the front is already into the 60's.

Great for drying gear overnight too.

Definitely not cheap. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Actually wish I hadn't waited so long -- we winter "camp" with our fatbikes a lot more than before, and get to explore a lot more zones that we'd never have bothered with before having the heated van.


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

SteveF said:


> I'm looking at 2-3 VERY small campers and I'm seeing something called a cassette toilet, where the 5-gallon waste tank is removable and you can wheel it away and dump it in a station or bathroom. Looks like kind of a cool idea, but at 57 years of age, I'm concerned about being able to muscle it around and empty since a full tank is 40-50 pounds. Anyone on here used or using such a system?


I had a cassette toilet that I bought for our pop up. I think I used it once before I realized it wasn't worth the added hassle and I would rather dig a hole. Since then I have moved to WAG bags along with the bucket and seat and absolutely love it. Clean, cheap, simple, relatively odorless, foolproof, and easy to use. As a lifelong camper this is by far my favorite system.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

There's always composting toilets.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Did you get the 6k or the 16k?

I'm tempted, but I hate to put the money out when I'll probably upgrade to a bigger van in not too long.

Propane is so easy and total package is 1/3 the Espar.



mikesee said:


> I installed an Espar D2 diesel heater in my van this time last year.
> 
> Pretty amazing little unit. Not exactly easy to install, but if *I* could do it, in one (short, cold) day, it ain't all that hard.
> 
> ...


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Link to a pretty sanitary diesel heater a buddy of mine recently completed:

https://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/threads/chinese-diesel-heaters.77800/

Enjoy!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Did you get the 6k or the 16k?
> 
> I'm tempted, but I hate to put the money out when I'll probably upgrade to a bigger van in not too long.
> 
> Propane is so easy and total package is 1/3 the Espar.


I got the smallest one.

A big part of why I wanted a heater for winter camping was the ability to dry wet clothing -- whether after a bike ride or a winter whitewater run. Propane is actively pumping moisture into the air. Diesel is drying the air out.

Not wanting to fill my van with condensation every night of a 2-week (or even 2 day) winter roadtrip made it an easy choice.


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

...Propane is actively pumping moisture into the air. Diesel is drying the air out.

Not wanting to fill my van with condensation every night of a 2-week (or even 2 day) winter roadtrip made it an easy choice.[/QUOTE]

Correction: Propane catalytic heaters put CO2 and water into the interior air. This is Mr. Heater stuff. An RV gas forced hot air heater puts the combustion air outside and does not put water into the interior air.

I've used hydrotherm heaters in my camper for 25 years. The only issues I've seen with them are:

1. The battery draw is about 4.4 amps continuous and draws batteries down overnight in cold weather when the cold has reduced the battery capacity. Your diesel heater has at least that amount of draw and will exhaust the batteries also.

2. The fan is a bit noisy. Picky, picky. Of course the diesel heater has a noisy fan also.

Propane is not difficult to manage. I would NOT want diesel in my van - it stinks!! Literally - I know, my camper is on a duramax. And, having propane for heat allows a gas stove top (and oven in larger vans). How is this better than induction? Camp for a few days in the snow and tell me how your batteries did. Electricity is much harder to get than propane.

By the way, I carry a Honda EU 1000i and a spray can of starting ether along with a 750 watt electric heater. Belt and suspenders, at least when it is 5 degrees outside.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

< - only 41 years old here, but I stumbled across this thread and loved the info in it. My wife and I have tent camped for 20 years, but this past May we purchased a 23 foot trailer to make it easier now that we have 2 small children and one that is still in diapers. we found a Bunk House unit where the previous owner built the bottom bunk into a crib using a baby gate, so it was perfect.

The trailer is a 1997 model (fitting considering we got married in 97) and in really good shape, at $5500 it was a good price too. We have already used it a number of times and will be taking it out again in a few weeks for a family camping trip.

We did a Yosemite trip a few weeks ago with a stop in Hungry Valley on the way home.

So far I am really liking the ability to get up in the middle of the night for a bathroom break without having to get dressed and leave the tent to go pee on a tree.

Also with 29 degree nights in Yosemite the Propane Heater was amazing.

It is small enough that it tows easy behind my suburban and fits in my driveway, but big enough that my wife and I have a california king to sleep on. And since we keep it at home it is easy to pack up before our trips and take out time cleaning up after them.

The only thing I would change is the way the toilet is placed, I have broad shoulders and it is in a narrow spot.

some pics.

In the driveway








Campsite in upper pines Yosemite Valley








Campsite in Hungry Valley with most of our crew from the Yosemite trip.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I've had a trip scheduled for several months now to take a recert course for the mtb instructor certification I got years ago. Well, I'm 2 weeks out and no word on it being rescheduled yet. It's kinda weird because the county where the course is located has campgrounds shut down and is requiring self quarantine for 2 weeks for anyone who has spent the night outside the county, so I can't pay for a campsite yet. I don't have the most current info, but the state's considering starting its phase I reopening this week if the infection data meets the benchmarks.

So for now, I have to assume that everything is still happening. Even though it may well get cancelled/postponed between now and then.

Which means I have some study materials to run through, and I need to get my camper prepped. It's mostly good to go, but it could use a good power wash since it's been in the garage for awhile gathering dust and cobwebs.

I got a new tow vehicle recently, so I'm kinda excited about getting it out. If all goes well with Rona, I'm going to be taking this thing out camping as frequently as possible this summer.


0430201205 by Nate, on Flickr

Interim solution to carry bikes around.


0503201549_HDR by Nate, on Flickr

I'd say silver and chrome on the truck coordinates well with the white and chrome on the trailer.


20170422_190650 by Nate, on Flickr


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Since you were towing with the Subie, I suspect the truck will be a game changer.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Cleared2land said:


> Since you were towing with the Subie, I suspect the truck will be a game changer.


Absolutely. I expect roughly the same fuel economy when towing (19mpg in the Subie on a 3200mi trip), but the truck will be straining far less, so fewer fuel stops, less concern about revving the engine too high climbing mtn passes, and a whole lot more comfortable.

Plus, with bikes in the bed instead of on the roof, I won't have that extra sail to deal with.

Not to mention, the backup camera alone is game changing. It's got a center marker to line up the hitch. The truck's blind spot system even accounts for the extra length of the trailer.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

The cameras and sensors on new trucks are pretty remarkable. I used to think just a backup camera was awesome but the all-around array is pretty sweet. I even find the front parking assist camera a lot more useful than I expected.


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

Harold said:


> Absolutely. Plus, with bikes in the bed instead of on the roof, I won't have that extra sail to deal with..


I hate to bust your bubble but a minivan would have been your best choice. Bikes and other stuff ...lots of other stuff kept inside safe and sound, dry and out of sight.

all the best.


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

Were planning on getting a 40ish foot toy hauler. Hopefully I'll pull the trigger in the next few weeks. I was thinking of having the aluminum tent racking for the truck so the places that the trailer can't fit into we can camp on the truck.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

evasive said:


> The cameras and sensors on new trucks are pretty remarkable. I used to think just a backup camera was awesome but the all-around array is pretty sweet. I even find the front parking assist camera a lot more useful than I expected.


Yeah, those front sensors have come in handy pulling into parking spaces. I totally can't see anywhere near the front bumper of this thing. Just sucks when there's nothing in front of me except a white line and empty space. I've got nothing to go on!

Also, this is my first vehicle with anything more than a basic radio. It has the Sync3 system in it, and this whole Android Auto thing is pretty rad, too.



temporoad said:


> I hate to bust your bubble but a minivan would have been your best choice. Bikes and other stuff ...lots of other stuff kept inside safe and sound, dry and out of sight.
> 
> all the best.


Seriously? I never asked you or anyone else. There was a lot more that went into my decision process. It was a decision I spent years examining my various options before replacing my Honda. A truck is the right choice for the needs and wants I had.


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

Harold said:


> Seriously?


yep, seriously, as I said, all the best, which in my local culture means ..... all the best .. best wishes... have fun....good for you....thumbs up.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

temporoad said:


> yep, seriously, as I said, all the best, which in my local culture means ..... all the best .. best wishes... have fun....good for you....thumbs up.


In my culture, that phrase, along with your entirely unwarranted and unsolicited "advice" reads entirely the opposite.

A minivan would have been great fun (or not) moving a few cubic yards of shredded hardwood mulch around my yard right after buying it. For the truck, no issue. I bought a truck to keep dirty cargo outside.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Harold said:


> ... I never asked you or anyone else...


Harold, I'd have though that with 28k+ posts, you'd be inured to getting unsolicited advice by now. You dish some out yourself, on occasion.

I see a lot of restless locals getting the RVs prepped for the season and wonder where they'll be going.


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

Harold said:


> A minivan would have been great fun (or not) moving a few cubic yards of shredded hardwood mulch around my yard right after buying it. For the truck, no issue. I bought a truck to keep dirty cargo outside.


Very true, I have heard of a person doing that before, said they lined it with a tarp. That is were a utility trailer comes into play. Pick up the mulch disconnect the trailer from the vehicle when you get home and unload the mulch when you have time available. One would need to have the space to store such trailer or rent one.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Lone Rager said:


> Harold, I'd have though that with 28k+ posts, you'd be inured to getting unsolicited advice by now. You dish some out yourself, on occasion.
> 
> I see a lot of restless locals getting the RVs prepped for the season and wonder where they'll be going.


The perceived superiority of the tone is what set me off.

Yeah, my camper prep may wind up being far too early. The county where the class is to be located still has campgrounds and hotels closed (so I can't make reservations) and a pretty strict self-quarantine order if you've spent a night in another county. It's pretty much just a wait-and-see game at this point, hoping that the state/county relax things enough that campgrounds can open up again. At least one county adjacent to me lifted its campground closure order already, so it's possible.



temporoad said:


> Very true, I have heard of a person doing that before, said they lined it with a tarp. That is were a utility trailer comes into play. Pick up the mulch disconnect the trailer from the vehicle when you get home and unload the mulch when you have time available. One would need to have the space to store such trailer or rent one.


Look, it's not like I didn't consider all of those things and many, many more in the years I spent deciding what sort of vehicle would suit my needs as I prepared for the purchase. My decision was not made lightly. I posted in many threads over the years about that decision process, and if you wanted to chime in, THAT was the time. Not now, after I made said purchase and am happy with it. A minivan just isn't it for me. Give it up already.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I will reinforce the good choice in picking up a Ranger.


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

Our new rig isn't really an RV but it's a huge step up from our previous tent life. So nice to have a real bed and a secure place for the bikes and gear.









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^^ Nice! Have more photos? I like the 80/20 Slide Tray. Did you build this rig?


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

Take a look at almost any North Carolina Beach cam, quarantine looks like its over ! https://www.surfchex.com/cams/wrightsville-beach/
RV prep, Ive done a full solar install, a bunch of DC upgrades, new entry steps, suspension / axles greased, along with the usual de winterizing. I even hooked it up and drove around the neighborhood just because I dont want the first time I take it out to be after sitting for 6 months ! Def getting restless
Nice rig set up Harold !


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Nice slide out tray. If I had a high roof van I'd do the same and use a swing away rack, but with the low roof I barely have the room for a bike under my platform, so I have them inside with wheels on or on the rack.

Speaking of platforms, that looks like an aluminum tubed frame with plywood, homemade or purchased?

I bought a spool gun for my Mig and welded up a two panel playform using 1 x 1 6061, overlain with 1/2" ply, ledgers are aluminum 2 x 2 angle mounted on the load tie downs, so super strong and easy to remove for carrying tall items.

I had previously used a custom foam mattress, but opted for a double wide inflatable mattress (ExPed Megamat DUO) whcih is adjustable and stowable. A couple throw pillows and it's just like home 

So no fridge, just a cooler? If you can do it, a cooler is amazing, just need a secondary battery system to provide juice, no more ice ever! There's nothing like coming back from a ride to a cooler stocked with chilled beverages. I keep a variety of drinks in my cooler year round.

Nice van!


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## iliketexmex (Oct 29, 2016)

Episodes 27, 28 & 31 of the Bike Rumor Podcast interviews the guys from VanDoIt, which is a van conversion company. They discuss all the considerations of design depending on the type of camping you want to do. While it is a little bit company biased (they do work for VanDoIt),  it is very insightful for the considerations of power use, material selection, feature priorization, etc. If you are seriously considering #vanlife, definitely listen to these as part of your research. It might save you a misstep or two.


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> Nice slide out tray. If I had a high roof van I'd do the same, use a swing away rack, but with the low roof I barely have the room for a bike under my platform, so I have them inside with wheels on or on the rack.
> 
> Speaking of platforms, that looks like an aluminum tubed frame with plywood, homemade or purchased?
> 
> ...


My bed is a kit from Overland Sprinter. Reasonable and well made but definitely a lot of DIY.

After many bad experiences with air matreses this was one thing we were excited to ditch. We have a foam queen from Amazon. Inexpensive, comfy, no fiddling. We leave the bed made so we can bail at any time.

I would like to get a fridge at some point but our coolers are very good. Time will tell.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## bcaronongan (Nov 8, 2006)

Boondocked this past weekend. It was awesome weather.
Did a ride with the boys in the morning and then a ride with the wife and kids in the afternoon.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> If you can do it, a cooler is amazing, just need a secondary battery system to provide juice, no more ice ever! There's nothing like coming back from a ride to a cooler stocked with chilled beverages. I keep a variety of drinks in my cooler year round.
> 
> Nice van!


I definitely plan to go the fridge route at some point. Got to check some out in person at the Overland Expo a few years ago.

I just need to figure out how I'm going to arrange everything. I'm not sure if the galley on my camper has room for a fridge slideout (height underneath the middle shelf), but that would be the easiest spot to put it as far as wiring goes. I've already got the power system in place, and most likely plenty of capacity for a weekend trip. I have a small solar panel if I need it, but I'll probably upgrade my solar if I go the fridge route. Doing it that way would probably be the most bear secure method at my disposal. Local regs permit keeping your food/cooler inside a locked vehicle as an appropriate storage method. They aren't SO habituated around here that they're tearing into vehicles (yet).

That will definitely mess around a bit with my general storage layout, though, and I'll need to spend some time reorganizing stuff.

I've considered a Goal Zero solar generator to power the fridge in the bed of the truck, but that's obviously not remotely secure from bears, raccoons, or much of anything else.

I think I'm going to wind up buying one of these, too, in my goal to be better equipped for boondocking. The Nomad kit is pretty full featured. I'd probably want to bring an extra propane tank so I can set it up far enough away from the camper that I'm not leaving a muddy puddle right next to it anytime I shower. I really like that I don't need to have water tanks permanently mounted to anything, and it can even pull straight from a stream/lake.

https://www.joolca.com/products/hottap-v2

Of course a cartridge toilet is in the plan, too.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

sbd said:


> My bed is a kit from Overland Sprinter. Reasonable and well made but definitely a lot of DIY.
> 
> After many bad experiences with air matreses this was one thing we were excited to ditch. We have a foam queen from Amazon. Inexpensive, comfy, no fiddling. We leave the bed made so we can bail at any time.
> 
> ...


Nice! I used Overland's build as my model, I was hoping he'd weld one up for me but I have a Promaster 118 which is atypical so not worth the effort.

For sure, building out a van is a learning process. This is my second van, but each one went through stages of remodel, current van is on bed three and cabinet two, last bed was a folding dinette whcih was realy cool but never worked as I'd hoped, the welded aluminum removeable platforms are awesome!

I hear you about the cooler, we used a Yeti for a few years until I had time to build out my electrical. Once you have a second battery trickling from your main, you'll never worry about cold beer again 

I just added a center console jump seat, so I finally have a safe place for people to sit, also added a side mounted seat belt on my bench behind the driver, so seating four for short distance is doable.

Having a van is like building a cabin off the grid, it's a work of love, things always changing, fun if you like to build things and you're handy.

I need to post new pics


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> I definitely plan to go the fridge route at some point. Got to check some out in person at the Overland Expo a few years ago.
> 
> I just need to figure out how I'm going to arrange everything. I'm not sure if the galley on my camper has room for a fridge slideout (height underneath the middle shelf), but that would be the easiest spot to put it as far as wiring goes. I've already got the power system in place, and most likely plenty of capacity for a weekend trip. I have a small solar panel if I need it, but I'll probably upgrade my solar if I go the fridge route. Doing it that way would probably be the most bear secure method at my disposal. Local regs permit keeping your food/cooler inside a locked vehicle as an appropriate storage method. They aren't SO habituated around here that they're tearing into vehicles (yet).
> 
> ...


How do you heat your camper? If you plan to add Propane, you need a propane vault whcih keeps you safe from venting. I run a catalytic propane heater off a small gas tank (same as Rhino), it works nice, though I did end up getting a larger heater for sleeping in single digit weather. You coudl use that same gas tank for your stove/grill.

I have a cartridge toilet, yours if you want it, cost $100, never used it; I guess I'm more like a bear 

The fridge is a little power hungry, esp in the summer, so a second battery system is key; solar is not quite enough. Generators are cool, but a second battery will keep the fridge going all the time. You'd need shore power with a converter to keep it running when your at home and it's off the truck.

EDIT: Did you buy a slide out camper or are you still pulling the trailer pictured above? In that case, you can mount your gas can up front on the hitch, no need to worry about venting


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

Harold said:


> Give it up already.


Yes sir will do that, as per your command.

Have a good summer.

PS. you are the one that brought up the mulch thing, I just offered a viable solution.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> How do you heat your camper? If you plan to add Propane, you need a propane vault whcih keeps you safe from venting. I run a catalytic propane heater off a small gas tank (same as Rhino), it works nice, though I did end up getting a larger heater for sleeping in single digit weather. You coudl use that same gas tank for your stove/grill.
> 
> I have a cartridge toilet, yours if you want it, cost $100, never used it; I guess I'm more like a bear
> 
> ...


I don't currently heat it. I've done a couple shoulder season trips where I needed some warmth, but I've managed well with an A/C powered heated blanket while on shore power so far. I'd like to get an external Propex HS2211 propane heater at some point. They're pricey and the install will be some work, but since it burns and vents outside, safety considerations will be easier.

I already have a battery system on my camper. With my current power usage, I've gone a week without needing to charge at all (solar OR shore), so my little solar panel can extend that by a decent amount under current power draw conditions. In discussions about fridges (particularly Dometic), I'll be fine for a long weekend on the system I have with no shore power. I can certainly add another battery without too much trouble, but keeping that topped up with solar would require big wattage output on the panels.

I'm still pulling the same camper. But since that pic was taken, I added a propane tank holder to the exterior side. I wanted to put a single 20lb up front, but couldn't find a suitable single tank holder that could just bolt on, and I didn't really have the ability to fab anything up myself.


0727181346 by Nate, on Flickr


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Nurse Ben, hows about posting up some photos of your vehicle?


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Minivan
Full size passenger van, extended rear length or not.
Camper Vans same format as pass vans.
Mercedes Benze Type Workvan campers are nice.
Truck Campers
Tent Trailer
Small Travel Trailer
^Med....^Large....^XL..... T.T.
Small Motorcoach....med....Lg....XL
Old, New

Budget allows you to get whatever you want. A minivan is good if its in good shape, but they break down too easily, too compact. Great on gas though! Cant go offroad. 
An old passenger van is good because its easy to work on, lots available at the junk yard. Those same old vans come in camper shells too, I like the ones with a foot out from each side right behind the front doors. Rip everything out, the cabinets are a waste. Live compactly. Keep the sink. Buy some telescopic rollers so you can have a Doubleback, like the VW. Then also install a roof popup. The hard raised roof isnt good for manuevarbility in tight spots, parkades will be hit and miss even with a normal height. 

Also do you want to blend in, urban camo camping. Need your rig to look like a work vehicle. Do you really want windows, not like your going to sit inside and look out the window, for van.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

2015 Ram Promaster 118 Diesel, shortest full sized eurovan, low roof so I can actually pull into my garage, everything built and installed by your truly:

Sunroof
Fantastic Van Roof Vent
Center Jump Seat/Console
Running Steps
Hitch/Hanging 5 Bike Rack
Bench behind driver: Propane Vault, Fridge, Seat Belt
12 V Electrical, Second Battery System with trickle
Converter, Shore Power, USB and Auto Style 12v plug ins, Led Lights
Volatile Gas Detector, Smoke Detector, Fire Extinguisher
Aluminum Two Panel Sleep Platform, Mega Mat Duo Inflatable Sleep Pad, under bed single bike strorage, dual bike upright storage.
Overhead Storage, Clothes Drying Lines
Reduced ride height: Removed secondary leaf spring and added overload jouncers.
90k and no issues!
Bonue: Best MPG, road trip to OR, 28.6mpg, no joke!!

Pics to follow:


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> Also do you want to blend in, urban camo camping. Need your rig to look like a work vehicle. Do you really want windows, not like your going to sit inside and look out the window, for van.


I don't camp anywhere that I would need to look like a work vehicle. I definitely want windows to see where I do park and camp.


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

matt4x4 said:


> Minivan
> Full size passenger van, extended rear length or not.
> Camper Vans same format as pass vans.
> Mercedes Benze Type Workvan campers are nice.
> ...


All really good points.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So my van is a daily driver, I use it to haul cargo, construction equipment, bikes, dogs, and for camping.

During the quarantine we will go out to eat, set up inside with a couple camp chairs, put on some music, and have dinner.

Once you have a van, it's hard to go back, there's nothing like having a place to change clothes, keep a cool drink, or just hang out.

I used to have an awning, but gave it my son for his van (Ford E350 EXT)

Next time around I'll probably get a Ford Transit High Roof AWD 140 Diesel, then I'd have a high roof so no more stooping and a little more storage options under the bed platform.

All told I probably have ~200 hours in my build and materials ~ $3000.


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

Cleared2land said:


> ^^^^^ Nice! Have more photos? I like the 80/20 Slide Tray. Did you build this rig?


The tray is a Bedslide made for pu trucks. But the dimensions were good for the van so in it went.

I looked at various adapters for fork mounts and the were all stupidly expensive bit I also didn't want to hard mount them.

Since the slide already had tracks down the side I made some 8020 pieces that connect to them.

I can take it out. Move it back and forth. I can move my mounts side to side. About $80 precut by 8020.









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> All told I probably have ~200 hours in my build and materials ~ $3000.


this is a nice build.

this is a good comparison


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

temporoad said:


> this is a nice build.
> 
> this is a good comparison


The Metris is waay too small, a bed platform takes up the whole cargo area without leaving any headroom, it's not much different than a Sienna and it's RWD.

Unless you never drive in snow and ice, AWD or FWD are necessary.

I had a gen one Sprinter, it was RWD, and even with chains it was terrible on ice.

The Promaster is a snowmobile, FWD and mud tires, it kills it on and off road.

The Metris woudl have been a cool option if they gone AWD, that would have been a worthy build esp with pop top.


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> The Metris is waay too small, a bed platform takes up the whole cargo area without leaving any headroom, it's not much different than a Sienna and it's RWD.
> 
> Unless you never drive in snow and ice, AWD or FWD are necessary.
> 
> ...


Yes I have lived in slow and ice my whole life. RWD does suck (that was the only thing available then unless you bought a Buick Riviera back in my day) but FWD with 4 snow tires works great.

It is very rare when the average person needs AWD.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

The snub nose vehicles would be something I would steer clear of. Even though its new crash technology in the crumple zone of the engine compartment there is just not enough space in front of you. I'd like a normal sized engine compartment, any truck with a cube on it and little to no divider between the front seats and rear access. A car incident doesnt look too bad, but a higher vehicle like a truck I just dunno.











This is a test to look for, small overlap crash test.




Quest minivan is the worst, Sienna is rated as "Acceptable" but still intrusion.


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## BeerCan (Aug 29, 2006)

Went through a few trailers before we settled on the AS. After our kids left the 5er was to big. We've put about 22k on this one so far. It works for us


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

BeerCan said:


> Went through a few trailers before we settled on the AS. After our kids left the 5er was to big. We've put about 22k on this one so far. It works for us
> View attachment 1330137


I have such memories in an Airstream. My grandparents had one for the longest time and took my cousins and I out in it multiple times per year. Unfortunately, they sold it off when I was in college, and I didn't know until it was already gone. I SO would have wanted to work out some sort of agreement with them to take it over.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Now that my son's baseball is cancelled, that frees up a lot of time for camping. Unfortunately, I still need to add trailer brakes to the new truck and the RV shop is closed. Since my truck has the tow package, I guess I could order a brake controller from Amazon and plug it in.

I wonder how this new Tacoma will do pulling the trailer. It seems to have more power than my '05, but perhaps less torque.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

matt4x4 said:


> The snub nose vehicles would be something I would steer clear of. Even though its new crash technology in the crumple zone of the engine compartment there is just not enough space in front of you. I'd like a normal sized engine compartment, any truck with a cube on it and little to no divider between the front seats and rear access. A car incident doesnt look too bad, but a higher vehicle like a truck I just dunno.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those were some nasty crashes!

Toyota Sienna for the win!

But to be quite honest, no crash is good and some crashes are real bad


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## BeerCan (Aug 29, 2006)

Harold said:


> I have such memories in an Airstream. My grandparents had one for the longest time and took my cousins and I out in it multiple times per year. Unfortunately, they sold it off when I was in college, and I didn't know until it was already gone. I SO would have wanted to work out some sort of agreement with them to take it over.


That stinks, they are a little pricey and the best way to get one IMO is through family. My kids joke that when I die this is the only thing they are going to fight over.

At first I was kind of hesitant with the AS, but my wife really liked this one (its the pendelton) and made me buy it. Well after a couple of outing I really started to like it, and now I am totally sold. I'll never need another trailer again. This one is perfect size, tows well and functional enough for what we do.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Curveball said:


> Now that my son's baseball is cancelled, that frees up a lot of time for camping. Unfortunately, I still need to add trailer brakes to the new truck and the RV shop is closed. Since my truck has the tow package, I guess I could order a brake controller from Amazon and plug it in.
> 
> I wonder how this new Tacoma will do pulling the trailer. It seems to have more power than my '05, but perhaps less torque.


do it yourself. it should be no big deal. My Ranger just had 4 wires under the dash, so I had to get a pigtail harness compatible with the controller I have and use butt splices. Annoying, but it was easy enough. I THINK the Taco has an actual wiring harness plug, so the hardest part for you should be deciding where to attach the controller.

Definitely easy compared to putting a brake controller on the subie. The subie was relatively easy to do a 4pin harness, but moving to a 7 pin required a bit of work, and wiring up the brake controller required that I pull a bunch of trim panels all over and run all the wires myself. That one took a few hours, a nice day, and some cursing.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

BeerCan said:


> That stinks, they are a little pricey and the best way to get one IMO is through family. My kids joke that when I die this is the only thing they are going to fight over.
> 
> At first I was kind of hesitant with the AS, but my wife really liked this one (its the pendelton) and made me buy it. Well after a couple of outing I really started to like it, and now I am totally sold. I'll never need another trailer again. This one is perfect size, tows well and functional enough for what we do.


Yeah, I've seen used ones a similar size to my grandparents' old one that were going for around $9k. Still not bad price wise. I think my grandparents probably would have insisted on selling it either way, though. They needed the money.

Sorta like how my grandfather on my other side had family property not far from where I live now for sale. It was already on the market when I learned about that, but he wasn't willing to accept anything other than an outright sale of the property because he wanted the money now.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

I had a 32 foot AirStream trailer about 20 years ago. Kinda wish I had it today but I don't have anything to tow it with. Then I towed it with an E350 Diesel Van. Went many places with it. Very good memories. 
Now I carry $10k+ bikes in a $2k Ranger pickup.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

PierreR said:


> I had a 32 foot AirStream trailer about 20 years ago. Kinda wish I had it today but I don't have anything to tow it with. Then I towed it with an E350 Diesel Van. Went many places with it. Very good memories.
> Now I carry $10k+ bikes in a $2k Ranger pickup.


At least you've kept your priorities straight!


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

PierreR said:


> I had a 32 foot AirStream trailer about 20 years ago. Kinda wish I had it today but I don't have anything to tow it with. Then I towed it with an E350 Diesel Van. Went many places with it. Very good memories.
> Now I carry $10k+ bikes in a $2k Ranger pickup.


A flat head screwdriver and buh bye to it all.

The Airstreams are nice, never been inside one. Seen lots on yt and tv, Jay Leno did a yt on one and they sure look cush.


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## PNW MTB (Apr 17, 2020)

Had a travel trailer for many years. all the comforts of home and room for the family, but not as mobile as some options. Somewhat limited as to where to park/camp.









Sold camper and bought this when the kids left home. All the comforts of home (albeit much smaller!) flush toilet, shower, refrigerator, freezer, heat.
Fairly easy to load and go, and many more parking/camping options.

















I am now considering selling the truck camper and going to a Sprinter/Promaster/Transit van conversion with it setup similar to this one. I think this checks all the boxes, but is the most expensive option of all the others I have had through the years.






I really have enjoyed having RV's over the years to enjoy the great outdoors and to participate in gatherings and events surrounding my hobbies. My yellow cargo/utility trailer is currently set up for my other hobby, but can easily be converted for biking and/or camping as well.

















If I engineer the garage under the bed of the conversion van properly, I think I can configure it to carry my airplanes or bikes, maybe even both!


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

PNW MTB said:


> I am now considering selling the truck camper and going to a Sprinter/Promaster/Transit van conversion with it setup similar to this one. I think this checks all the boxes, but is the most expensive option of all the others I have had through the years.
> 
> If I engineer the garage under the bed of the conversion van properly, I think I can configure it to carry my airplanes or bikes, maybe even both!


Go for it. Pursue the dream. These things are all consuming, fun as heck and guaranteed to deplete whatever disposable income budget you have.

Document your endeavor and report the progress.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Just pull the trailer with the van, you already have it, just keep it and use it.

Yeah, you could combine both in a van, but you won't have a place to sleep ?

The advantage of the van is you can drive it everywhere, all the time, never have to mess with a slide in, gear, bed, fridge is with you always.

Those planes are kinda small for an adult to ride in ?



PNW MTB said:


> Had a travel trailer for many years. all the comforts of home and room for the family, but not as mobile as some options. Somewhat limited as to where to park/camp.
> 
> View attachment 1331365
> 
> ...


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## PNW MTB (Apr 17, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> Those planes are kinda small for an adult to ride in 🙄


Yeah, but the neighbors keep wondering where all their cats have gotten off to......


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

twodownzero said:


> You think towing 10k with a SRW 1 ton is suicide, but a few paragraphs later you're advising pulling a trailer with a fwd van?


Astro Vans can be a good boogie van, maybe a 10' trailer, maybe.
Hey some are even 4x4 
Did they ever come stock awd? Tons of conversion kits out there. Compact, get the expandable roof and your set.

I like the classic Ford E150 full size, RWD vans myself, not the extended versions. Jack them up, convert to 4x4 and it can still get high centered too easily. You see tons of the Ford F450 crew cab 4x4 monster trucked up, which aint good for wheeling most of the time. Mud bogs is all.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Not sure where Matt got that quote from twodownzero, but towing with a front wheel drive van, esp a commercial van like the Promaster, is easypeazy.

My max tow rating is 6k, enough to pull a small excavator which I’ve done more than a few times. It’s never made sense that folks think a RWD truck with no weight over the drive axle is going to pull better than a FWD van with 5k over the drive axle.

So yeah, fear not, the myth of FWD vans being inadequate for towing is just that: a myth.

What I really like about FWD vehicles is how well they handle at speed and in unpredictable situations. The Promaster handles really well, way better than a truck; I sold a very nice 4 x 4 truck to get my Promaster, it was a great choice!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Not sure where Matt got that quote from twodownzero, but towing with a front wheel drive van, esp a commercial van like the Promaster, is easypeazy.


https://forums.mtbr.com/fifty-years-old/rv-thread-1020084.html#post13959281



Nurse Ben said:


> My max tow rating is 6k, enough to pull a small excavator which I've done more than a few times. It's never made sense that folks think a RWD truck with no weight over the drive axle is going to pull better than a FWD van with 5k over the drive axle.
> 
> So yeah, fear not, the myth of FWD vans being inadequate for towing is just that: a myth.
> 
> What I really like about FWD vehicles is how well they handle at speed and in unpredictable situations. The Promaster handles really well, way better than a truck; I sold a very nice 4 x 4 truck to get my Promaster, it was a great choice!





> 4. Drive System
> 
> Having a tow vehicle that has rear-wheel drive, four-wheel drive, or all-wheel drive is important to have when choosing a tow vehicle. You want to have a vehicle that has the option for a rear-wheel-drive so that when you are towing the engine's power is directed to the axle that is bearing the most weight. With a front-wheel-drive vehicle, you have more of a chance to lose control of the rear of the vehicle.


https://www.transwest.com/blog/7-features-you-should-look-for-when-shopping-for-a-towing-vehicle/



> Is your load balanced?
> Weight packed near the front of a trailer has an outsized impact on front-wheel-drive cars, Popular Mechanics explains. That's because front-loaded weight pulls down on the trailer's hitch, and that hitch, in turn, pulls down on the rear of the car. When the back of the car moves down, the front of the car moves up. Even if the front tires don't leave the road, a lighter front end affects how your car handles.
> 
> Keep this in mind when loading your front-wheel drive car for towing. Take care distributing the weight, and make sure your trailer isn't front-heavy.


https://www.motorbiscuit.com/heres-why-you-can-tow-with-a-front-wheel-drive-car/


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

A hitch weight of 250-500# is not gonna change much when the vehicle has 5k over the front wheels, same with saying that the rear wheel drive is gonna have more control, that's nonsense. My back end weighs more than a rear end of a 4wd truck, so same hitch weight would mean equal control, but add in 5k over the front wheels and the FWD has far more control and more traction. 

The only vehicle that could touch the level of control is a 4wd truck, but who runs their truck in 4wd when towing?

Reality is, if the back end of a RWD vehicle gets pulled to one side by a trailer, all hope of correction is lost, but if the same happens with a FWD you can literally accelerate through.

Old argument, having lived it I am gonna call bullshite. Towing with the Promaster is awesome, but don't trust me, just look at European applications.

EDIT: Almost forgot about braking which is the real concern when towing. Frint brakes provide the majority of stopping power, weight increases friction, now what stops faster a truck or FWD van. Yeah, it's pretty simple physics.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Look at the towing capacity sticker on the vehicle itself. You can tow anything you want, until the transmission over heats and cooks. You want some leeway, I know people who had 2500's and 3500's and blown transmissions frequently. They were well within their towing capacity, yet they are on yet another transmission. I never got a straight story to the circumstances behind the blown transmissions, but a long, steep hill can cook transmissions easy enough.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So Matt, you have a habit of talking about everything as though you're an expert, but here's the thing, I actually own a Promaster, I was one of the early buyers who started build threads on the Promaster forum, I did the research to inform the dealers.

I'm also a good mechanic from way back. Heavy metal, motos, etc ...

Yes, any transmission can overheat, and your point is what?

The engine and transmission in the diesel Promaster has many millions of miles of use in Europe, so calm me crazy, but I'm just seeing these failures you speak of.

BTW, there's no difference in the engine and transmission between a 1500, 2500, and 3500. The only difference is rear suspension and load rating.

So ya know that screw driver ....



matt4x4 said:


> Look at the towing capacity sticker on the vehicle itself. You can tow anything you want, until the transmission over heats and cooks. You want some leeway, I know people who had 2500's and 3500's and blown transmissions frequently. They were well within their towing capacity, yet they are on yet another transmission. I never got a straight story to the circumstances behind the blown transmissions, but a long, steep hill can cook transmissions easy enough.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

matt4x4 said:


> Astro Vans can be a good boogie van, maybe a 10' trailer, maybe.
> Hey some are even 4x4
> Did they ever come stock awd?


I owned 3 of those Astro vans and loved them. Built on a full frame chassis like a truck, strong V6, and seats 8. Towed great and made some killer road trips for us. Yes, there was AWD offered but never saw a 4X4 conversion, not saying they didn't have one though.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Dirtrider127 said:


> I owned 3 of those Astro vans and loved them. Built on a full frame chassis like a truck, strong V6, and seats 8. Towed great and made some killer road trips for us. Yes, there was AWD offered but never saw a 4X4 conversion, not saying they didn't have one though.


Yeah, I've seen solid front axles, but not sure if that was independently done or a conversion kit, or a conversion company. I just dont like that there isnt a lot of metal between the front bumper and your body.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> So Matt, you have a habit of talking about everything as though you're an expert, but here's the thing, I actually own a Promaster, I was one of the early buyers who started build threads on the Promaster forum, I did the research to inform the dealers.
> 
> I'm also a good mechanic from way back. Heavy metal, motos, etc ...
> 
> ...


A transmission cooler is practically necessary if you're going to do much towing at all. A temp gauge for the transmission would also be a good idea.


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

Curveball said:


> A transmission cooler is practically necessary if you're going to do much towing at all. A temp gauge for the transmission would also be a good idea.


Indeed. Both pretty standard nowadays on anything intended for towing.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Last fall I bought a 1993 Damon Adventurer 22' on a ChevyVan30 dually chassis on an impulse. It was too good to pass up even though I didn't really need it. My wife has always wanted to live the RV life so I thought this was a good place to start even if it was just for weekends. Life has changed and we are now moving from the Northeast coast to the Southern California sunshine and will be shipping our stuff and RV'ing across the country. Hopefully things will be opened up enough by late June to do a little sight seeing or visiting as we go. Once we get there,I'll start figuring out how to carry to bikes on this creampuff.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Good luck with your journey and report back.


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## BeerCan (Aug 29, 2006)

looks to be in good shape for 27 years old


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

BeerCan said:


> looks to be in good shape for 27 years old


When i went to check it out I could tell by the guy's garage that it was going to be cherry. 25,400 miles and always stored inside. The previous owner liked to work on cars so all the hoses, belts and fluids were regularly changed - every 5 years- so I'm confident in her ability to keep going. I put shocks, tires, brake pads and brake lines on so i feel safe driving it. Just have to put the rear view monitor and the tpms in and we are ready to roll in late June.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Got out for the first time with the new truck as my tow vehicle.


0615201313 by Nate, on Flickr


0615202104c by Nate, on Flickr


0616201035e_HDR by Nate, on Flickr

The first two days we had really persistent wind off the water. It was really frustrating because only sites with a certain orientation caught the wind at all. So many others were super calm. No awning, as a result. It also played hell with the camp stove. I set up a tarp as a windblock so we could have enough shelter to cook our food. No way I was taking a canoe meant for rivers out on a windy lake like that, either. Thing gets tossed around in wind pretty bad. The wind had us talking about a camper upgrade. Something that'd be a little more comfortable to deal with persistent crap weather.

Wasn't all bad, though. The wind cleared for Wed, so we got to take the canoe out on the water. Mac did REALLY well in the canoe for his first time!


0617201350 by Nate, on Flickr

Saw an osprey and its nest.


9238 by Nate, on Flickr


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Well, you STILL got some super good pics, Harold.


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

The first 4 days of camping with our new rig was at the beach in pouring down rain, good with the bad right?!! 
Awsum little rig ! 
We have the Blackstone Tailgater and ALways have issues if its windy , the griddle doesnt get as hot as required. You should see the surfboard / Sup / random wood configurations to block wind Ive had set up ! I have some idea for mods, we make it work though...all in good fun when camping ! 
Have you thought about getting Stand up paddle boards ? The dog can go and you can do it in virtually any water conditions / sightly easier to strap to a roof? Just a thought, I totally understand having a nice dry boat.
What lake is that?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

spleeft said:


> The first 4 days of camping with our new rig was at the beach in pouring down rain, good with the bad right?!!
> Awsum little rig !
> We have the Blackstone Tailgater and ALways have issues if its windy , the griddle doesnt get as hot as required. You should see the surfboard / Sup / random wood configurations to block wind Ive had set up ! I have some idea for mods, we make it work though...all in good fun when camping !
> Have you thought about getting Stand up paddle boards ? The dog can go and you can do it in virtually any water conditions / sightly easier to strap to a roof? Just a thought, I totally understand having a nice dry boat.
> What lake is that?


Here's the wind blocking setup we used. Cheap 12x12 tarp, and the poles and orange lines are from the awning system on the camper. It was stressing the poles even with all the extra support (I think I had 8 stakes out), so I took it down as soon as food was done.


0616201816 by Nate, on Flickr

Here's where our campsite was:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7552333,-82.2272984,16.08z?hl=en

I've seen multiple names for the reservoir depending on what map I'm looking at, but it's one of several along the Savannah River.

My wife has used paddle boards in the past, and didn't like them, so they haven't really been on our radar. I would like a couple of solo paddle craft, however, because there are times when the 16ft river canoe is too much to deal with, and solo paddling it just sucks unless you load it with 500+lbs of sandbags. The owner of Bellyak is a riding buddy of mine and his boats look pretty cool. They don't look like something that would be easy to paddle comfortably with a dog, though. I've kinda been leaning towards sit-on-top kayaks, honestly.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Oh, man. Wife's hankering HARD for a new camper. We went to a couple spots today to look at different models. Turned out one we liked the floorplan on was a hard no. At only 5'8, headroom was a PROBLEM for me. But found another we hadn't seen online yet that checked all the boxes. She's working hard to figure out how to buy it.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ That didn't last long.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Cleared2land said:


> ^^^ That didn't last long.


we've owned the one we have for a few years. It's nice in good weather, but persistent bad weather is exhausting with it. The wind on this trip made that really obvious. It gives a small shelter space that doesn't give a whole lot of room to move. I seemed better able to deal with that than my wife was. She seemed amped up with nervous energy that wouldn't allow her to just relax in the space we did have.

We had already been talking a little bit about upgrading. For me, because my aging (and cancer-ravaged) bladder means I have to get up in the middle of the night. I don't enjoy needing to get dressed (the colder it is, the more I need to dress), grab glasses and a light so I can see, and stumble in the dark to find a spot to go (the bucket toilet seat I ordered a couple weeks ago didn't show up until we were gone). Or, in a developed campground, make it all the way to the bathhouse. This is less an issue for my wife, who through much training at work, frequently holds it for 12hrs at a time. She would like at least an option to cook inside out of the weather, and the ability to stand up to change. Inadequate showers are annoying, too. The place where we camped this time involved a lengthy walk to the bathhouse, and the showers simply weren't worth it. They were tepid, about the same temp as the water supply in the campsite. So not worth the walk.

I had wanted to take our time to decide on something. Spend time looking at options, decide which ones were important and which weren't. That kinda thing. I wanted the dry weight of the trailer to be close to 3,000lbs for the sake of the truck we have. But also something with a good floorplan that makes sense. Too many campers have terrible floorplans.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

It's all about what works for you. It's a medium to get out and about.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Cleared2land said:


> It's all about what works for you. It's a medium to get out and about.


Pretty much. I think I'd prefer a smaller camper, but I haven't found any floorplans on smaller campers that work for me. Definitely won't buy anything with a less comfortable bed than we already have.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

For us, a slide make a big diff. It doesn't have to be big. Even 18" in width makes it seem more open and lot less claustrophobic. Smaller trailers really benefit, IMO.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Lone Rager said:


> For us, a slide make a big diff. It doesn't have to be big. Even 18" in width makes it seem more open and lot less claustrophobic. Smaller trailers really benefit, IMO.


Theoretically, I agree. Problem I'm running into is that I'm not seeing floorplans I like as much with slides.

She's really pissed at me right now. She wants to buy one NOW, and I'm putting the brakes on hard. I know that I'm the one who's going to be doing all of the work maintaining the thing and I'm realizing that there's a lot I don't know the basic maintenance that goes into these (obviously, the more equipment, the more there is), and it seems like there's a pile of issues that practically everyone has which become huge hassles. We don't have a place to keep one at the house, so we'll have to store it, which brings its own set of costs and hassles.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

All of the (recent) above is why I see us getting a Black Series HQ15 in the next year or two. I could get by with a teardrop, but my GF wants to have a bathroom. I don’t really have an argument against that. And well, if we’re towing a trailer, let’s make it worthwhile. Black Series builds theirs with marine or household grade components, so I’d expect at least slightly less wear and tear, and their suspension looks perfect for surviving USFS gravel roads. I don’t need something trail-rated, but vibration kills trailers and ours will see a lot of bad roads.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

evasive said:


> All of the (recent) above is why I see us getting a Black Series HQ15 in the next year or two. I could get by with a teardrop, but my GF wants to have a bathroom. I don't really have an argument against that. And well, if we're towing a trailer, let's make it worthwhile. Black Series builds theirs with marine or household grade components, so I'd expect at least slightly less wear and tear, and their suspension looks perfect for surviving USFS gravel roads. I don't need something trail-rated, but vibration kills trailers and ours will see a lot of bad roads.


Of course, it's made in Australia. Nice to see a dealer in GA, though. They have an HQ19 on the lot right now, it looks like.

That's the sort of floorplan I like (esp with the bed lengthwise). I'm mostly sketched out by build quality issues (it seems many are due to the fact that so many trailers are unable to deal with simple road vibrations) and the additional maintenance and prep involved. There's a LOT more involved with owning a real travel trailer over a teardrop. I REALLY like the fact that the teardrop is SO EASY to own. My wife doesn't deal with any of these things, so for her it doesn't matter what extra maintenance needs to be done, or what considerations need to be made for towing.


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## Fat-in-Fundy (Feb 21, 2015)

Harold said:


> Of course, it's made in Australia. Nice to see a dealer in GA, though. They have an HQ19 on the lot right now, it looks like.
> 
> That's the sort of floorplan I like (esp with the bed lengthwise). I'm mostly sketched out by build quality issues (it seems many are due to the fact that so many trailers are unable to deal with simple road vibrations) and the additional maintenance and prep involved. There's a LOT more involved with owning a real travel trailer over a teardrop. I REALLY like the fact that the teardrop is SO EASY to own. My wife doesn't deal with any of these things, so for her it doesn't matter what extra maintenance needs to be done, or what considerations need to be made for towing.


I think you're spot on here with the advantages of the teardrop, I really like your setup.
Easy to tow, store and maintain and best of all gives you a comfortable nights sleep out of the elements while still maintaining that camping atmosphere. While I can appreciate why people desire a little more comfort, especially when the weather turns sour, when you start trying to drag all the comforts of home into the woods you lose some of the experience of getting away from it all IMO. That and all of the extra hassles you've mentioned sometimes means you end up going less.
That said, Happy Wife Happy Life, so I guess there's tradeoffs!


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

I’ve done enough homework that I’m comfortable that the Black Series campers will avoid a lot of the issues you see in cheap campers, because of their better construction and materials. We visited an RV show for giggles, and the VOCs in them gave my GF some respiratory issues after about an hour. Lots of cheap laminates and glue in the average RV. 

It really comes down to how and where you’ll use it. If I had unlimited resources, I’d like a rugged teardrop for boondocking. But we’ll spend a lot of nights in ours at bike parks and enduro races, so then we’d want more space and a bathroom. Compromises everywhere.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Fat-in-Fundy said:


> I think you're spot on here with the advantages of the teardrop, I really like your setup.
> Easy to tow, store and maintain and best of all gives you a comfortable nights sleep out of the elements while still maintaining that camping atmosphere. While I can appreciate why people desire a little more comfort, especially when the weather turns sour, when you start trying to drag all the comforts of home into the woods you lose some of the experience of getting away from it all IMO. That and all of the extra hassles you've mentioned sometimes means you end up going less.
> That said, Happy Wife Happy Life, so I guess there's tradeoffs!


I'm currently investigating whether there is anything we can ADD to our teardrop to give us better foul weather comfort. Maybe a straight awning off the driver's side with an attached room or something like that. The Foxwing awning I already have isn't really a foul weather accessory. It's pretty much for shade and short bouts with rain.

Before this trip, I was already investigating what to do in order to get a warm shower and I already have some options there. My bucket toilet was delivered, and that technically addresses my nighttime needs (especially for boondocking).

I also kinda can't get over the fact that I got over 20mpg pulling the teardrop on a ~400mi round trip with my Ranger. But it looks like a bigger camper (big frontal area being the biggest factor) will realistically cut that in half, especially dealing with some of the longer mtn grades.

Add to that the fact that it looks like my teardrop has a better quality charge controller than most campers on the market, which allows me to pretty much plug it in and forget it when I'm not camping, regardless of which type of battery I've got installed (I will probably upgrade to a Lithium 100Ah when my current AGM is done).


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

I took the family over the mountains for a camping/riding trip last weekend. It was the first tow for the new truck and it did great. Much better power over the steep mountain pass than the last truck. Better mileage too. We went across the mountains to flee the rain that seems to appear every weekend here. We had great riding weather and stellar trail conditions with hero dirt.

Our little trailer is pretty comfortable and tows very well. We're taking it on vacation to Utah this summer since Canada is closed. I'm really looking forward to that.









I really need to wash all the green crap off the trailer now.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Harold said:


> we've owned the one we have for a few years. It's nice in good weather, but persistent bad weather is exhausting with it. The wind on this trip made that really obvious. It gives a small shelter space that doesn't give a whole lot of room to move. I seemed better able to deal with that than my wife was. She seemed amped up with nervous energy that wouldn't allow her to just relax in the space we did have.
> 
> We had already been talking a little bit about upgrading. For me, because my aging (and cancer-ravaged) bladder means I have to get up in the middle of the night. I don't enjoy needing to get dressed (the colder it is, the more I need to dress), grab glasses and a light so I can see, and stumble in the dark to find a spot to go (the bucket toilet seat I ordered a couple weeks ago didn't show up until we were gone). Or, in a developed campground, make it all the way to the bathhouse. This is less an issue for my wife, who through much training at work, frequently holds it for 12hrs at a time. She would like at least an option to cook inside out of the weather, and the ability to stand up to change. Inadequate showers are annoying, too. The place where we camped this time involved a lengthy walk to the bathhouse, and the showers simply weren't worth it. They were tepid, about the same temp as the water supply in the campsite. So not worth the walk.
> 
> I had wanted to take our time to decide on something. Spend time looking at options, decide which ones were important and which weren't. That kinda thing. I wanted the dry weight of the trailer to be close to 3,000lbs for the sake of the truck we have. But also something with a good floorplan that makes sense. Too many campers have terrible floorplans.


You're pretty well describing my trailer Harold. It has everything you want and is light enough to tow with a compact pickup.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Curveball said:


> You're pretty well describing my trailer Harold. It has everything you want and is light enough to tow with a compact pickup.


I didn't like the lightweight jaycos that I looked at. Headroom was a PROBLEM (and I'm not tall).


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Harold said:


> I didn't like the lightweight jaycos that I looked at. Headroom was a PROBLEM (and I'm not tall).


I'm 6' and have no problem with headroom inside the trailer. I wonder what Jayco's you were looking at?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Curveball said:


> I'm 6' and have no problem with headroom inside the trailer. I wonder what Jayco's you were looking at?


Jay Flight SLX 7. That and the Hummingbird (we also looked at, and headroom was better, but we didn't like the floorplans) are the only single axle trailers they have right now.

I think I was able to withstand the wife's push for long enough to get her to start considering additions to our current setup for other conditions. For wind and other persistent bad weather, in particular, big screen rooms with wind-blocking panels and a rainfly. $550 is a whole lot better spend than $20k, especially considering that I just had a roofer trying to figure out why my roof was leaking yesterday, and I won't know for a bit if insurance is going to cover it or not.


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

Geo Pro makes some nice small trailers with slides.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Harold said:


> Oh, man. Wife's hankering HARD for a new camper...


I got the opposite problem. We are currently camperless and wify-boo is not interested. I could certainly still get one, but kinda un-fun if she's not into it. I'm thinking suggesting a trip to AK my change her mind.

As far as cooking transmissions, depending on the vehicle, you may be able to get an OBD2 reader that will read out your TX temp, which can be informative. Many of these communicate via BT with a phone app. Another common one has a little dedicated display that shows 4 selected parameters at all times so no need to mess with the phone.


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## frana (Jan 5, 2008)

Any recommendations on VWmodels that are better than others, or things to beware/aware of? Certain years?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Lone Rager said:


> I got the opposite problem. We are currently camperless and wify-boo is not interested. I could certainly still get one, but kinda un-fun if she's not into it. I'm thinking suggesting a trip to AK my change her mind.


If I'm being honest, I think I'd rather a much smaller camper than the one my wife wants. Sure, my truck can pull it and it's well within the safety limits, but the enormous height and frontal area means I'm likely to get around 10mpg. That kind of fuel economy will be tedious as hell to deal with on road trips.

I keep coming back to the Scamp/Casita type fiberglass design. Or at the high end, an Oliver.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

That Black Series trailer is pretty cool but $57K :eekster: https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2020-Black-Series-HQ-19-CARAVAN----HQ19-5007081193

Bad weather is what led us to a toy hauler years ago. Back when the kids were at home, we used to tent/dry camp in the desert to ride dirt bikes. Sometimes it was HOT, sometimes it was COLD but what tipped the scales was a windstorm for the ages one weekend. My wife instantly became a fan of my desire for a toy hauler/enclosed RV.

While the tear drops have their attributes, once you have a REAL bathroom and HOT shower while being able to be safe from all elements, there's no going back. We don't currently have any type of RV but once my wife stops working full time in (2) years, we'll probably get a travel trailer. She'll need something comfy enough to hang out in while I ride


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

k2rider1964 said:


> That Black Series trailer is pretty cool but $57K :eekster: https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2020-Black-Series-HQ-19-CARAVAN----HQ19-5007081193
> 
> Bad weather is what led us to a toy hauler years ago. Back when the kids were at home, we used to tent/dry camp in the desert to ride dirt bikes. Sometimes it was HOT, sometimes it was COLD but what tipped the scales was a windstorm for the ages one weekend. My wife instantly became a fan of my desire for a toy hauler/enclosed RV.
> 
> While the tear drops have their attributes, once you have a REAL bathroom and HOT shower while being able to be safe from all elements, there's no going back. We don't currently have any type of RV but once my wife stops working full time in (2) years, we'll probably get a travel trailer. She'll need something comfy enough to hang out in while I ride


Yeah, cost gets pretty rough on those premium/luxury campers.

I was doing more research/educating myself today, trying to dive into some details. I think I found the deal-killer on the camper the wife wants. One of the things that intimidated me about towing it was the fact that it's so BIG. Not so heavy, but BIG. The top of the thing is 10.5ft into the air. Digging into the towing guidelines for my truck, I found a bit about trailer frontal area. Looks like without the towing package, they don't want you towing a trailer with more frontal area than the truck itself (30 sq ft). WITH the towing package, they bump that to 55 sq ft. The trailer my wife likes has a massive 84 sq ft. The whole thing is complicated by the shape of the front of the trailer (sloped fiberglass, so more slippery), but given that the truck is still just a 4 banger, the extra drag (and holy smokes, the suction on the totally square back end of that box) would push the engine a lot harder than I want.

Yeah, I think this solidifies the fact that I ought to be looking at trailers that are smaller and slipperiererer (though the weight is fine) given my truck.

I have some friends several states away with a Casita, and I need to convince them to take a mtb trip down my way so I can see their camper. Sure, they did just take a mtb trip to AR, but they can make another one.


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## Jing (Sep 4, 2013)

Harold,
You might want to look at Escape trailers. I had a friend with the 19', not huge but comfortable. They seem to be better made than a lot of the light weight models. Built by friendly Canadians.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jing said:


> Harold,
> You might want to look at Escape trailers. I had a friend with the 19', not huge but comfortable. They seem to be better made than a lot of the light weight models. Built by friendly Canadians.


That's exactly the sort of trailer I'm looking at with Casita and Scamp. Same sort of fiberglass construction, but more sizes available. The 19ft covers a lot of bases and still gives a permanent queen bed. A bit more expensive, but looks like a nice camper.

Being located where they are, though...yowza. That's either an enormous road trip to go pick it up (would be a pretty awesome road trip, though), or a pretty hefty delivery fee to have it brought to me.

The Olivers are built a LOT closer to me, but the bigger double axle trailer is also a lot heavier than the Escape (I assume it's the double hull construction they use that puts it over 1500lbs heavier than a comparable size Escape).

Happier Camper is another fiberglass camper I've got my eye on. But the bigger of the two has a layout that looks a bit more cramped to me.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I was out there on the web looking around I came across Escape fiberglass trailers from Canada. Just saw the web site so not much to say. Here's a 19' model:

https://escapetrailer.com/the-19-foot-escape/


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jing said:


> Harold,
> You might want to look at Escape trailers. I had a friend with the 19', not huge but comfortable. They seem to be better made than a lot of the light weight models. Built by friendly Canadians.





Lone Rager said:


> I was out there on the web looking around I came across Escape fiberglass trailers from Canada. Just saw the web site so not much to say. Here's a 19' model:
> 
> https://escapetrailer.com/the-19-foot-escape/


lol. you're about 2hrs late.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Harold said:


> If I'm being honest, I think I'd rather a much smaller camper than the one my wife wants. Sure, my truck can pull it and it's well within the safety limits, but the enormous height and frontal area means I'm likely to get around 10mpg. That kind of fuel economy will be tedious as hell to deal with on road trips.
> 
> I keep coming back to the Scamp/Casita type fiberglass design. Or at the high end, an Oliver.


Good point. I get about 12 MPG and we'll be making a lot of gas stops on our way to Utah this summer. I agree that it's the height and frontal area causing a lot of drag.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Harold said:


> lol. you're about 2hrs late.


I've never seen the Escape until that post but it looks good. I say you get it and do a full report. At half the cost of the Black Series stuff, it's a screaming deal. I've only owned a toy hauler so nit much to compare but the Escape only has a 28 gallon fresh water capacity :eekster: I didn't realize they went that small. My toy hauler capacity was 150 gallons!!


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

Harold,

You've given me so much great advice with my newb bike mechanic adventures so I hope I can help you here!
We spent a good full year researching for our first TT ( we were looking at 30' 9000-11000# Toy Haulers ), but everything I have to offer goes for smaller ones too, maybe ha ha !. Just a quick few notes.... 
1. My next go around I will look at certified used RVs that would have most of the "new" bugs worked out that plague most new RV's and they often have lots of great upgrades. Your looking at higher quality brands so maybe this does not hold true for you.

2. We opted for a 4k generator thinking we would need it for really hot days to run the ac , and after our first summer realized that we hardly ever used it for AC. We were either camping where they had electric hook ups or it just wasn't that hot. And with the 110 amhr capacity I have with the upgraded AGMs (220 total ) , I would still have to run the generator for 8 hours to charge the batteries from 60% to full and is noisy and kinda sucks. I guess what Im saying is, I would invest in solar ( which we did ) . It is soooo much better and more efficient at keeping batteries topped off for many reasons. I researched that intensely and can go into it more if you like. There's just a lot of misconception to what you actually get when an RV manufacturer says things like "WIred for solar" or "Solar panel included" so be careful . 
3. Easy access to all of the plumbing and electrical components are something Ill make sure of on our next RV purchase. Before our first trip I upgraded the batteries, added a Victron Battery monitor, installed a proper hardwired EMS voltage drop/surge protector ( for the same price as the ones you hang on the pedestal , repaired endless loose connections ,upgraded the Converter charger and geez it was difficult because my RV has limited access to all the electric components. 
4. We upgraded out tires shortly after our first trip and got rid of the cheap ones that came with the RV. Just didn't want any blow outs because of cheap tires. But maybe this isnt as critical with a light single axle.
I could go on but Ill wait to see what choices you narrow down too.
PS - just wondering , any chance for a bigger truck in your near future?? What are you towing with now?


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I really like the Little Guy Max trailer. It's a teardrop, but has a full stand-up wetbath and they are really nice inside. Dry weight is 3140 lbs and GCVW is 4200 lbs. so you could tow it with some SUVs. They are made in PA (near Seven Springs).
https://golittleguy.com/lg-max/

They also make a smaller one that you could tow with some crossovers or a minivan.
https://golittleguy.com/lg-mini/


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

spleeft said:


> Harold,
> 
> You've given me so much great advice with my newb bike mechanic adventures so I hope I can help you here!
> We spent a good full year researching for our first TT ( we were looking at 30' 9000-11000# Toy Haulers ), but everything I have to offer goes for smaller ones too, maybe ha ha !. Just a quick few notes....
> ...


Nice tips. I have a 2019 Ford Ranger XLT with tow package. It's rated for 7500lbs, but realistically something that heavy in a boxy RV format is going to guzzle gas. I want to keep dry weight close to or below 3k for this truck. Plus, I'm a fan of easier maintenance. I may still keep the teardrop in all honesty, and not buy a bigger RV. I really like the easy maintenance aspect of the teardrop. It's also much more simply built, and easier to work out upgrades and repairs.

I have been looking at various standalone kits that would add comforts. My basic bucket toilet finally arrived (a necessity right now if I want to do some local camping, as all the USFS restrooms and vault toilets are closed in the area) and I have a tent for it. Of course, as a result of this, these things are harder to get than usual, so it didn't arrive in time for my trip.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075BZVVLD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This thing is rad as hell, and I've seen a few plans for DIY versions, too.

https://www.joolca.com/products/hottap-v2

Also portable fridges from companies like ARB, Dometic, and such.

This has been on my radar for a long time.

https://www.propexheatsource.com/

This shelter was recommended to me, because you can put wind-blocking panels on it.

https://www.amazon.com/Clam-Corpora...JK3MCN2VD0B&psc=1&refRID=A3AETDBYKJK3MCN2VD0B



jabrabu said:


> I really like the Little Guy Max trailer. It's a teardrop, but has a full stand-up wetbath and they are really nice inside. Dry weight is 3140 lbs and GCVW is 4200 lbs. so you could tow it with some SUVs. They are made in PA (near Seven Springs).
> https://golittleguy.com/lg-max/


Yeah, that's about the size that I like.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harold said:


> Not to mention, the backup camera alone is game changing. It's got a center marker to line up the hitch. The truck's blind spot system even accounts for the extra length of the trailer.


Probably the best use for the backup camera on my Suburban.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harold said:


> Of course, it's made in Australia. Nice to see a dealer in GA, though. They have an HQ19 on the lot right now, it looks like.
> 
> That's the sort of floorplan I like (esp with the bed lengthwise). I'm mostly sketched out by build quality issues (it seems many are due to the fact that so many trailers are unable to deal with simple road vibrations) and the additional maintenance and prep involved. There's a LOT more involved with owning a real travel trailer over a teardrop. I REALLY like the fact that the teardrop is SO EASY to own. My wife doesn't deal with any of these things, so for her it doesn't matter what extra maintenance needs to be done, or what considerations need to be made for towing.


I feel like you are overestimating the "increased" maintenance needed for a real travel trailer over a tear drop.

I bought a 20+ year old trailer and since doing that over a year ago and using it 5 times the only thing I have had to fix is a hose on the toilet. My wife accidentally ripped it off. The part was a little pricing because we were in a small town far from home when it happened, but it was not difficult to fix.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Klurejr said:


> I feel like you are overestimating the "increased" maintenance needed for a real travel trailer over a tear drop.
> 
> I bought a 20+ year old trailer and since doing that over a year ago and using it 5 times the only thing I have had to fix is a hose on the toilet. My wife accidentally ripped it off. The part was a little pricing because we were in a small town far from home when it happened, but it was not difficult to fix.


I dunno. I've been speaking to RV friends who have owned something or other for decades. The bigger the trailer, the more seams you need to pay attention to caulking to prevent leaks (because more seams on the exterior panels, more caulk, and more potential spots for leaks to form). I've been told they need checked prob every 6mo if parked outside. Maybe annually if garaged. Gotta winterize the plumbing and clean the tanks. A bigger trailer requires more cleaning after use than a smaller one. A lot of the bigger, more expensive trailers have cheaper batteries than my teardrop has, which require more attention. Plus, I have a VERY good tender built in to my teardrop that does a better job than what it seems like many larger RVs include (based on what I've been able to read).

Some of the increased hassle is due to the fact that my teardrop fits in my garage where it's covered, I have a constant power supply, and it's easily accessible to do whatever it needs, and I'd have to store a larger trailer offsite. Other increased maintenance comes from increasing the number and complexity of the systems on the trailer. It seems anyone who is experienced with RV's tells me that just about anything you buy will need to have some things redone or modified as soon as you take it home, and a fair number of things repaired after your first couple trips because they get rattled loose. They say buying used can avoid a lot of those issues, but the other factor with buying used is that campers are often built so cheaply that they don't hold up well if they're used a lot or not cared for, so you have to be extra careful about that.

My teardrop was built-to-order by a guy I've come to consider a friend, and was built to a higher standard than most of the mass produced campers on the market. To get a similar build quality on a larger camper, the cost goes up FAST on those things.

I'd almost rather buy something vintage (Airstream, or a Shasta, or something along those lines) that I can gut and built out as I wish, except for the lack of space at home to do the work. HOA doesn't allow RV storage in the driveway, so it either needs to be small (teardrop) to fit in the garage I already have, or I need to build a garage just for the RV, and that'll cost way more than the camper itself.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm at 90k on my "horrible" automatic manual, no issues, hands down best transmission/motor combo of all time, so sad that Chrysler Fiat dropped the option, but it's understandable considering it was not a popular option and pricey.

I'm sure the Penstar is fine, won't get great mpg, but likely on par with other gas powered euro vans.

If I had to choose a gas van, the Promaster still wins out for Initial Cost, FWD, lowest deck height, and widest interior.

If I was looking to get a new van, I'd buy a used Ford Transit 150 in a short length mid height RWD diesel, then have Sportmobile add a transfer case and a front drive unit.



honkinunit said:


> Fiat dropped the diesel for 2019. I heard horror stories about the "automated manual" transmission on those.
> 
> Apparently the only engine offered is the Chrysler 3.6L V6 which Chrysler puts in just about every vehicle they sell. It is only available with a six speed auto. I had that engine in a Wrangler, and I had THREE serious issues in just 60,000 miles. I dumped it. It is also seriously the wrong engine for hauling large loads - it is biased toward horsepower on the high end, whereas in a van you want torque at low RPMs. Jeep gets around it by putting low gearing on the Wrangler. The new RAM pickup gets a battery assist as standard with that engine. With the van, you are stuck with the six speed auto and no hybrid assist.
> 
> You are probably better off with a 4x4 Sprinter for backroad use. Of course, you will pay a lot more for one of those. You can even get low range. Unfortunately, a 4x4 Sprinter with just a few options is over $60K.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harold said:


> I dunno. I've been speaking to RV friends who have owned something or other for decades. The bigger the trailer, the more seams you need to pay attention to caulking to prevent leaks (because more seams on the exterior panels, more caulk, and more potential spots for leaks to form). I've been told they need checked prob every 6mo if parked outside. Maybe annually if garaged. Gotta winterize the plumbing and clean the tanks. A bigger trailer requires more cleaning after use than a smaller one. A lot of the bigger, more expensive trailers have cheaper batteries than my teardrop has, which require more attention. Plus, I have a VERY good tender built in to my teardrop that does a better job than what it seems like many larger RVs include (based on what I've been able to read).
> 
> Some of the increased hassle is due to the fact that my teardrop fits in my garage where it's covered, I have a constant power supply, and it's easily accessible to do whatever it needs, and I'd have to store a larger trailer offsite. Other increased maintenance comes from increasing the number and complexity of the systems on the trailer. It seems anyone who is experienced with RV's tells me that just about anything you buy will need to have some things redone or modified as soon as you take it home, and a fair number of things repaired after your first couple trips because they get rattled loose. They say buying used can avoid a lot of those issues, but the other factor with buying used is that campers are often built so cheaply that they don't hold up well if they're used a lot or not cared for, so you have to be extra careful about that.
> 
> ...


Maybe I am just super lucky that the Previous owner of my trailer took good care of it. He had it stored in his Driveway in Ventura, CA. I used to live up there and they get a lot of fog moisture during the winter and have mild summers. I am now keeping it in my driveway, it is partially covered by a sun shade and tucked in next to my garage. Here in San Diego we have very mild weather compared to many other parts of the country, so keeping it outside 24/7 is not gonna be much of a problem.

I don't have to winterize anything, so that is a plus for me.
I can keep it in my driveway, so that is a plus.
It came with Solar that works really well. I put new batteries in it last year and the solar keeps them topped off at all times, so they act as the tender for me.
Since we bought it a year ago I have towed it right about 1700 miles and nothing has rattled loose.

Keeping the black water tank clean is not hard at all, I bought some tabs you drop into the toilet after you have flushed out the tanks that help keep the water soft during storage, they also deodorize.

That said, you can be in for trouble if you do get a roof leak and mold starts growing in the walls. My buddy just dealt with that in the trailer he has had for a long time. he had been borrowing it from a friend for like 5 or 6 years cause he could store it and his friend did not have a place to keep it. a few months ago his friend finally sold it to him. they went to remodel the bedroom and found mold when they pulled the cabinets off. Ended up being a bigger job then they planned and he got the roof rhino lined to prevent future leaks.

I think if I do anything I will look into getting the bedliner stuff sprayed on the roof, pretty cheap to get some great protection.

I would chalk the condition of my trailer to good owners and a high quality build. Fleetwood has been around a long time and the Prowler line has been a staple of what they make.

It sounds like your biggest issue is storage, and I totally understand that. I am very fortunate I can keep mine at home. That is why we went with this size. It is 28 feet from the front wall of the side of my house to the sidewalk, so a 25' with 3' for the tongue is the longest we could go without poking into the public sidewalk. The 23' is perfect because I can park it slightly angled meaning I don't have to be exactly precise when backing it in and it leaves room behind it without it poking into the sidewalk.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Climate considerations are a major factor for exterior maintenance in my case. I live in a pretty warm and wet climate and anything stored outside is going to grow mold, algae, and/or moss in pretty short order. Even if left under a carport cover. Just ask the siding on my house. This means somewhat regular power washing and some scrubbing, which is additionally going to be hard on caulked seams. Wintertime means pretty much daily freeze/thaw cycles. So winterizing plumbing is essential unless I can garage it. Quite a few people with money and enough land build RV garages to help with the maintenance side of things. 

The maintenance by itself is only part of it. The addition of the offsite storage is where it's at. And considering that my driveway is steep AF, I can't even park the camper for a couple of days before/after a trip to deal with most of that maintenance the way some of my neighbors (with a flat driveway) do. I have a small flat-ish spot just in front of the driveway that's just enough space for my teardrop that I use for washing. I MIGHT be able to work with a short 16ft or so camper in that space.

If I do buy a larger camper, reduced exterior maintenance is one reason why I'm liking the fiberglass ones.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harold said:


> Climate considerations are a major factor for exterior maintenance in my case. I live in a pretty warm and wet climate and anything stored outside is going to grow mold, algae, and/or moss in pretty short order. Even if left under a carport cover. Just ask the siding on my house. This means somewhat regular power washing and some scrubbing, which is additionally going to be hard on caulked seams. Wintertime means pretty much daily freeze/thaw cycles. So winterizing plumbing is essential unless I can garage it. Quite a few people with money and enough land build RV garages to help with the maintenance side of things.
> 
> The maintenance by itself is only part of it. The addition of the offsite storage is where it's at. And considering that my driveway is steep AF, I can't even park the camper for a couple of days before/after a trip to deal with most of that maintenance the way some of my neighbors (with a flat driveway) do. I have a small flat-ish spot just in front of the driveway that's just enough space for my teardrop that I use for washing. I MIGHT be able to work with a short 16ft or so camper in that space.
> 
> If I do buy a larger camper, reduced exterior maintenance is one reason why I'm liking the fiberglass ones.


Sounds like you just need to move to a different house where the weather is better and you have a flatter driveway. There Problem Solved! haha.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Klurejr said:


> Sounds like you just need to move to a different house where the weather is better and you have a flatter driveway. There Problem Solved! haha.


I love it here, though. the weather suits me well enough, except days like today where it breaks 90F.

I could built an RV garage and keep the HOA happy (my yard's big enough for it), but it'd be a pretty expensive project. I'd have to pay for storage for a good, long time to break even.

I might move one day, but getting something that has more of the things I want than the house I'm in now is currently out of the budget. Found one recently that was well over $600k, around twice what my place would sell for. Tried to convince some family members to pool our resources (it had a 2nd apt/living unit on the lower level) for it, but no takers. Haha.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I lived out there for twenty years, I could never do it again, the heat and humidity are brutal.

I remember losing my Birkenstock's one summer, found them a year later in the back of the closet covered in green mold.

Seriously, it's gross living in the southeastern USA.



Harold said:


> Climate considerations are a major factor for exterior maintenance in my case. I live in a pretty warm and wet climate and anything stored outside is going to grow mold, algae, and/or moss in pretty short order. Even if left under a carport cover. Just ask the siding on my house. This means somewhat regular power washing and some scrubbing, which is additionally going to be hard on caulked seams. Wintertime means pretty much daily freeze/thaw cycles. So winterizing plumbing is essential unless I can garage it. Quite a few people with money and enough land build RV garages to help with the maintenance side of things.
> 
> The maintenance by itself is only part of it. The addition of the offsite storage is where it's at. And considering that my driveway is steep AF, I can't even park the camper for a couple of days before/after a trip to deal with most of that maintenance the way some of my neighbors (with a flat driveway) do. I have a small flat-ish spot just in front of the driveway that's just enough space for my teardrop that I use for washing. I MIGHT be able to work with a short 16ft or so camper in that space.
> 
> If I do buy a larger camper, reduced exterior maintenance is one reason why I'm liking the fiberglass ones.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> I lived out there for twenty years, I could never do it again, the heat and humidity are brutal.
> 
> I remember losing my Birkenstock's one summer, found them a year later in the back of the closet covered in green mold.
> 
> Seriously, it's gross living in the southeastern USA.


Yeah, the humidity can feel gross, but I love the green intensity that comes with it. Nowhere is perfect, but this kind of environment feels like "home" to me. I've spent enough time in different places out west to know that I like to visit, but not sure I want to actually live in most of the places I've been. I got a lot of nose bleeds due to the dryness of the air.

Getting out on the river here is nice when it's hot in the summertime. The water's nice and cold. There's some nice spots where you can combine a morning bike ride with a jump into a cold stream, too.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Harold said:


> Yeah, the humidity can feel gross, but I love the green intensity that comes with it. Nowhere is perfect, but this kind of environment feels like "home" to me. I've spent enough time in different places out west to know that I like to visit, but not sure I want to actually live in most of the places I've been. I got a lot of nose bleeds due to the dryness of the air.
> 
> Getting out on the river here is nice when it's hot in the summertime. The water's nice and cold. There's some nice spots where you can combine a morning bike ride with a jump into a cold stream, too.


If you go all the way west, the air is not so dry. Also really great mountains.

Of course I could list a heap of reasons not to live here.


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## Drew43 (Oct 23, 2015)

We picked up a used sprinter about three years ago. It’s a 170wb sportsmobile. I spent some on upgrading the suspension and it’s been all dirt roads all over the PNW. We hardly ever stop at a rv park. We’ve had birthday parties in it and lots of shuttle days with friends. I’ve had larger rigs and feel smaller is better.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

drew43 said:


> we picked up a used sprinter about three years ago. It's a 170wb sportsmobile. I spent some on upgrading the suspension and it's been all dirt roads all over the pnw. We hardly ever stop at a rv park. We've had birthday parties in it a lots of shuttle days with friends. I've had lager rigs and feel smaller is better.


pics!


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I will second the Sprinter Sportsmobile pics!


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## Drew43 (Oct 23, 2015)




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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I hope that you will provide more photos than just the bike rack?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Curveball said:


> If you go all the way west, the air is not so dry. Also really great mountains.
> 
> Of course I could list a heap of reasons not to live here.


yeah, I would say don't move to Cali, it is horrible here.......... ;-)


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## Drew43 (Oct 23, 2015)

Sorry about that. Had to figure out how to post pics on here. Obviously still don't have it down...


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

I hope I never want an RV. Way too much hassle and won't go where i want it to.

My p*R*e*V*ia


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Drew43 said:


> Sorry about that. Had to figure out how to post pics on here. Obviously still don't have it down...


Nice. I like when van conversions don't get too over-the-top.

I see all kinds out my way. Over the top outfitted rigs and stealthy conversions that look little different than a work van.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah. I had been contemplating a work-van-ish every-day-driver type RV, but my vehicle got totaled before I was ready to take the plunge, so got an SUV that could tow a reasonable trailer when/if the time comes (waiting on a major external factor).


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

OldBlue950 said:


> I hope I never want an RV. Way too much hassle and won't go where i want it to.
> 
> My p*R*e*V*ia
> 
> View attachment 1347069


Howzit work out for an extended period of time?


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## Drew43 (Oct 23, 2015)

Lone Rager said:


> Yeah. I had been contemplating a work-van-ish every-day-driver type RV, but my vehicle got totaled before I was ready to take the plunge, so got an SUV that could tow a reasonable trailer when/if the time comes (waiting on a major external factor).


I hear ya! We looked at a small trailer but would have had buy a truck to tow it with...the van fell in our lap. If someone already has a suitable vehicle, there a lots of great options out there!


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

We got our trailer about a month ago. Its sweet. Couple riding trips so far, trip to the bike park was great as the kids could make runs till they were tired and go back to the trailer and get some food and rest up. I need to build a rack for the back to make it easy to get the bikes ready to go down the road. Looking forward to a Bentonville trip as soon as the weather starts to cool off.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

TXrocks said:


> We got our trailer about a month ago. Its sweet. Couple riding trips so far, trip to the bike park was great as the kids could make runs till they were tired and go back to the trailer and get some food and rest up. I need to build a rack for the back to make it easy to get the bikes ready to go down the road. Looking forward to a Bentonville trip as soon as the weather starts to cool off.


I bought a full size receiver that mounts to the 4x4 square rear bumper that is standard on most Travel Trailers. Then I just put my Hitch-Mount Bike rack on the back. Works great.

Here it in in Yosemite last year:


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

^^^ One advantage of rear mount bike rack is it reduces the tongue load, which often is relatively heavy to begin with. It's good to keep track of the tongue weight and keep it between 10-15% of the loaded trailer weight for best towing stability. Also tongue load has to be included in the vehicle load, so if your tow vehicle has a 1200 lb load limit, and the trailer 500 lb tongue weight, you're down to 700 lb you can load into the vehicle, including passengers.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Radium said:


> Howzit work out for an extended period of time?


I camped in a Previa for 66 straight days once, and done many 4-8 week trips.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> I bought a full size receiver that mounts to the 4x4 square rear bumper that is standard on most Travel Trailers. Then I just put my Hitch-Mount Bike rack on the back. Works great.
> 
> Here it in in Yosemite last year:
> 
> View attachment 1347437


This has been gone over a fair amount in the cars and bike racks thread, but be careful of the 4" bumper mount receiver hitch setup for bike racks. Your particular setup might be robust enough, many are not. Travel trailers amplify movement at the rear end, and adding mass on a lever (ie: bike rack), generates some massive loads. There's more than a few stories of catastrophic failure of these setups. On all the recreation vehicles we've had, those 4" bumpers are designed more to hold your sewer hose than be particularly structural - pretty thin walled.

We had a spare tire mounted bike rack on the rear of an offroad tent trailer. Spare mount was bomber, and could manage the weight. Highway speed dips generated so much force at the rear end of the tandem rig, that large grade 8 bolts sheared in half. If it hadn't been for copious use of backup river straps, bikes would have been drug till dead.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Gotta be super careful about bike racks on the back of campers. Lots of extra dynamic loading going on that most hitch mount bike racks aren't built to handle. One risky point is the receiver/bumper of the camper itself. The other is the rack.


0718180753 by Nate, on Flickr

Failures here can result in bikes being dropped on the freeway.

This is why I never got a receiver put on the back of my teardrop. You CAN do it safely, but you need to be careful with the full setup you're using and make sure you've got a bit of safety margin built-in. It's a process I simply decided not to mess with.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

watermonkey said:


> This has been gone over a fair amount in the cars and bike racks thread, but be careful of the 4" bumper mount receiver hitch setup for bike racks. Your particular setup might be robust enough, many are not. Travel trailers amplify movement at the rear end, and adding mass on a lever (ie: bike rack), generates some massive loads. There's more than a few stories of catastrophic failure of these setups. On all the recreation vehicles we've had, those 4" bumpers are designed more to hold your sewer hose than be particularly structural - pretty thin walled.
> 
> We had a spare tire mounted bike rack on the rear of an offroad tent trailer. Spare mount was bomber, and could manage the weight. Highway speed dips generated so much force at the rear end of the tandem rig, that large grade 8 bolts sheared in half. If it hadn't been for copious use of backup river straps, bikes would have been drug till dead.


Truth. One feature on our Cougar is the bumper pulls out about 2' and there's a fold down bike rick between the spare tire and the trailer body.


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## Rajflyboy (Jan 30, 2020)

You folks have me wanting to get a camping rig set up of some sort 😜.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ It can be a wonderfully fun money funnel.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Harold said:


> Gotta be super careful about bike racks on the back of campers...


I happened to be looking at hitch racks at Saris and they have at least one they say is "RV rated". It's 2" only, not 1.25" like the non-RV version.

I'm using a 2" Rocky Mounts Monorail that is hella strong. IDK if they rate racks for RV use, per se, but I'd have no qualms using it on the back of a trailer with a suitable strong receiver.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Lone Rager said:


> I happened to be looking at hitch racks at Saris and they have at least one they say is "RV rated". It's 2" only, not 1.25" like the non-RV version.
> 
> I'm using a 2" Rocky Mounts Monorail that is hella strong. IDK if they rate racks for RV use, per se, but I'd have no qualms using it on the back of a trailer with a suitable strong receiver.


The size of the stinger is one factor. For example, Kuat specifically says that their racks are NOT rated for RV use. I had an NV already (2"), and wasn't about to buy a new rack (rated for RV use) just for the camper. I don't know all the factors that go into whether or not a rack is rated for RV use, but I suspect hinges/pivots are one factor. I'm fairly sure that typical bouncy trailer suspension is part of the equation, too. Also rear overhangs past the axle. So, rather than making sure that the rack is sufficiently overbuilt to handle all those variables, most manufacturers just say no.

Looks like Rockymounts says no to offroad use and for use on the back of trailers.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1455/3830/files/MonoRail_Instructions.pdf?264403160156462892


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah. Certainly easier/cheaper to say no than have to deal with any repercussions of having said yes, and performing the tests to back it up over all the variables RV and off-road use would entail. Of course if enough potential buyers used that as a criterion for purchase, it might make sense to certify for RV use. 

FWIW: Those RM instructions are also for the 1.25" rack. The 2" will handle 2 x 60lb bikes or 3 x 45lb bikes. So, in my considered opinion and having used one for ~ 1yr, it'd be OK with two ~35 lb bikes on the back of a trailer in normal towing on paved roads, and assuming gentle and infrequent use on rough surfaces. It's certainly way better than most of the rigs I see out there.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

*Time to start think'n backcountry winter RV'n*


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

Klurejr said:


> I bought a full size receiver that mounts to the 4x4 square rear bumper that is standard on most Travel Trailers. Then I just put my Hitch-Mount Bike rack on the back. Works great.


Keep an eye on the trailer bumper, there have been many reports on the RV forums of the bumpers cracking due to the torsional stress of those tube mounts with bike racks.

An industry rep did some research among the manufacturers and found that most specifically state "do no mount anything on the bumpers". They say the bumpers are too thin and the welds are not intended to support that torsional loads.

Keep in mind that as you go down the road, that bumper is moving up and down 12 or more inches which generates a lot of g force.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

OldBlue950 said:


> I camped in a Previa for 66 straight days once, and done many 4-8 week trips.


That is truly impressive. 66 days!


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## Wired29 (Jul 23, 2009)

Harold said:


> Gotta be super careful about bike racks on the back of campers. Lots of extra dynamic loading going on that most hitch mount bike racks aren't built to handle. One risky point is the receiver/bumper of the camper itself. The other is the rack.
> 
> Failures here can result in bikes being dropped on the freeway.
> 
> This is why I never got a receiver put on the back of my teardrop. You CAN do it safely, but you need to be careful with the full setup you're using and make sure you've got a bit of safety margin built-in. It's a process I simply decided not to mess with.


Seen it happen first hand. I was one car behind a guy up in Copper Harbor a few years ago when his rack broke and dropped two bikes and dragged the other one. The driver right behind him hit the two bikes but not hard, they were savable. The one that got dragged was done. It took me about 2 miles before I could pass him and pull him over. Turned out it was a guy in the same camp ground as us that I talked to the day before. Felt bad for him as he was from Germany and rented the camper but brought his own bikes.


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## Simon789 (Jun 29, 2019)

I like camping. Since our family became bigger (we have two children, our son is 5 and daughter is 1.5 years old), we decided to buy a bigger car for traveling together. I'm thinking about VW Tansporter T6 or Renault Traffic. And of course, I can always rent an RV. The only thing I have to do is to pass pcv theory test. I'm currently practicing online on this site, and I hope to pass the test in two weeks.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ Good Luck!


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## bouncy_rig (Aug 22, 2007)

We have made several trips this past summer in our camper I have to say watching kids ride bikes around the campground without masks and laughing and playing. Is the most Norman Rockwell type thing I have seen since March.


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## Rajflyboy (Jan 30, 2020)

bouncy_rig said:


> We have made several trips this past summer in our camper I have to say watching kids ride bikes around the campground without masks and laughing and playing. Is the most Norman Rockwell type thing I have seen since March.


it's so hard to find normalcy right now ?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Rajflyboy said:


> it's so hard to find normalcy right now ?


A text book reason for getting out and enjoying the outdoors. It gives you the flexibility to find what is normal.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

We just got back from a 12-day trip to Park City with our little trailer. It was awesome camping at Wasatch State Park. I don't think we could have done the trip during these Covid times without it. I don't think I would have survived the Utah heat without the AC in the trailer. Having our own bathroom behind the truck was also a great way to social distance on the way there and back. Everything worked out nearly perfectly for our annual family vacation.

We did hit some high winds on the way back through eastern Washington which made for tough driving.


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> I bought a full size receiver that mounts to the 4x4 square rear bumper that is standard on most Travel Trailers. Then I just put my Hitch-Mount Bike rack on the back. Works great.
> 
> Here it in in Yosemite last year:


That is part of the reason I bought a toy hauler, I want the bikes inside, out of sight out of mind....Its the inside the toy hauler rack I need to make. I was originally going to make a "tailgate" that can be ratchet strapped down and use my tailgate pad since that works excellent in the back of the truck. Plus I could use that same rack outside to park them when there sitting outside.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

TXrocks said:


> That is part of the reason I bought a toy hauler, I want the bikes inside, out of sight out of mind.


Yepper, I want my bikes inside and out of sight, dust and rain. We travel many miles on 4x4 and forest roads with way too much dust.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

*Comes With Heliport?*


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Helipad.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

Good to find a little bit of normalcy in these times. Just went up to Bass Lake a few weeks ago to get away with our setup. Also fortunate enough to live right by Carlsbad State Beach so we check for cancellations pretty regularly and go down for a night or two.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Getting ready for my first fall camping trip. It's not technically fall, but it's certainly starting to feel like it. I pulled out my flannel a couple days ago, and we're going to be getting some nighttime temps in the 40's.

Campground is on a small lake in eastern TN hiding in the mtns, so I'm bringing the canoe. Thought about bringing bikes, too, but this is a fairly short trip and we won't really have enough time to enjoy all of it. Meeting a small group of folks there who own the same brand of camper we do, so there's a little bit of socialization on tap.

Got another trip lined up for Big South Fork (TN side) in about 3 weeks and the bikes are coming along on that one.

Then after that, a third short trip to Boone, NC at the end of Oct that's a bike trip just for me.

Getting the camper ready right now is an interesting project. I've got 1600 sq ft of hardwood floor in the garage right now to be installed (most of the house is getting new floors) next month. Bunch of rain headed in tonight and tomorrow, so I want to keep the trailer in the garage for as long as I can, for dry loading/prep.


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## Rajflyboy (Jan 30, 2020)

Cleared2land said:


> Yepper, I want my bikes inside and out of sight, dust and rain. We travel many miles on 4x4 and forest roads with way too much dust.


Very smart way to travel. :thumbsup:


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Picked up a new NuCamp Tab 320s for a decent price last December (last in stock 2019 unit). They also agreed to store it til spring and I picked it up in June. I'd been thinking about and shopping for a trailer for a few years, kind of casually, and this one really grabbed me. The quality and features are there, and it's the smallest trailer I could find that had pretty much everything I wanted. It only weighs around 1900 pound dry and my GMC Canyon gets 15-16mpg pulling it down the highway, a reduction of only 8-10 mpg. (though I go a bit slower with the trailer) I got to use it on three occasions this past season, it makes a great base camp for pedaling adventures. It's now winterized and ready for storage, but I'm already planning and looking forward to using it more next year.

The day I picked it up:










Sleeping Bear Dunes, Empire, MI:










Marquette, MI:


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^ Steve, where do the bikes go? in the back of the truck?


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Cleared2land said:


> ^^^^ Steve, where do the bikes go? in the back of the truck?


 Yep! :thumbsup:









Usually a bit more neatly than this, this was a quick load job for a shuttle ride. If you look close, there are 3 bikes in there! I ride small bikes so I can put them in upright, wheels on, and pad between with bike or tv boxes. Works great.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

25k for a camper, dang, that's pricey!

You can get a used euro van for that kind of money.

I went the camper route for a few years, got a van, now I don't need a camper 



SteveF said:


> Picked up a new NuCamp Tab 320s for a decent price last December (last in stock 2019 unit). They also agreed to store it til spring and I picked it up in June. I'd been thinking about and shopping for a trailer for a few years, kind of casually, and this one really grabbed me. The quality and features are there, and it's the smallest trailer I could find that had pretty much everything I wanted. It only weighs around 1900 pound dry and my GMC Canyon gets 15-16mpg pulling it down the highway, a reduction of only 8-10 mpg. (though I go a bit slower with the trailer) I got to use it on three occasions this past season, it makes a great base camp for pedaling adventures. It's now winterized and ready for storage, but I'm already planning and looking forward to using it more next year.
> 
> The day I picked it up:
> 
> ...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Last trip a couple weeks ago had my camper's electrical system acting wonky. I was connected to short power, so keeping a charge wasn't a problem. But maintaining constant current to DC stuff (lights, fan, USB charging) was wacked, especially when I increased the power draw. Turns out, the battery was in its death throes (3.5yrs on an AGM battery is about its functional life).

After some research, I opted to upgrade to a 100Ah LiPo battery from Dakota Lithium. Supposed to be delivered this afternoon/evening, and I'll be changing out my battery and battery box either this weekend or next week (old box doesn't fit the new battery). Doing a trip next weekend that'll have me off grid for a few nights, so I need a battery that can actually hold a charge.

While I have the battery out, I'll be adding a battery shutoff switch so I can safely work on the electrical system and do future battery changes.

This is part of a plan to swap out my current tongue mounted toolbox for a larger tongue box with a slideout drawer for a fridge. 100Ah is WAY overkill for my current power needs, but should suit nicely for a fridge for a few days (and longer if I add more solar capacity).


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> 25k for a camper, dang, that's pricey!
> 
> You can get a used euro van for that kind of money.
> 
> I went the camper route for a few years, got a van, now I don't need a camper


Heh, buying the previous model year in December I paid a LOT less than that! I'd actually been aware of this model trailer for quite a while but thought it was out of reach for my budget. They made me an offer on this one that I couldn't walk away from.

I do get the appeal of camper vans but a small trailer simply works better for me at this point in my life.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> 25k for a camper, dang, that's pricey!


Lol, that's what I'd call "average" money. I've been looking at small campers that cost in the neighborhood of 50k. Things like Oliver, the new Sylvansport (damn, that thing is rad...a toy hauler that fits mtn bikes inside with a convertible living space and weighs only 2500lbs), etc.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The only camper purchase that makes sense to me is buying an antique like an old Airsteam, then gut it and make it modern.

But yeah, ten of thousands of dollars for fancy yard art is not my thing.

My van is an every day driver.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> The only camper purchase that makes sense to me is buying an antique like an old Airsteam, then gut it and make it modern.
> 
> But yeah, ten of thousands of dollars for fancy yard art is not my thing.
> 
> My van is an every day driver.


Don't get me wrong, I've definitely thought about doing a reno job on an antique. Problem is, I don't have a spot to do the work even if I wanted to spend that kind of money.

I like being able to fit my camper in the garage. I'll bet that Tab would fit.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Nurse Ben said:


> The only camper purchase that makes sense to me is buying an antique like an old Airsteam, then gut it and make it modern.
> 
> But yeah, ten of thousands of dollars for fancy yard art is not my thing.
> 
> My van is an every day driver.


Different people have different priorities. I'd rather set a camper and have the freedom to be mobile during the day without breaking camp. If it's just 1-2 nights and we don't want to haul a camper, we'd sleep in the truck bed.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

evasive said:


> Different people have different priorities. I'd rather set a camper and have the freedom to be mobile during the day without breaking camp.


Very true. I do like that flexibility.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Harold said:


> Don't get me wrong, I've definitely thought about doing a reno job on an antique. Problem is, I don't have a spot to do the work even if I wanted to spend that kind of money.
> 
> I like being able to fit my camper in the garage. I'll bet that Tab would fit.


It's close but it's just a few inches too tall for a standard 7' garage door. If you have an 8' door, it would go in fine.

Me working on a classic/project trailer would be a disaster. I'm probably the last person that should own any trailer-I'm very much not mechanically inclined. Not to mention that I have no space and no time. The Tab's reputation for quality and great customer service definitely contributed to my decision when I bought it. It's been largely issue free so far. (touch wood!)


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

evasive said:


> Different people have different priorities. I'd rather set a camper and have the freedom to be mobile during the day without breaking camp...


Exactly!


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Although if it’s 2 days in a bike park parking lot, I’d tow a camper.


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## Buzz Cut (Jan 16, 2007)




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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SteveF said:


> It's close but it's just a few inches too tall for a standard 7' garage door. If you have an 8' door, it would go in fine.
> 
> Me working on a classic/project trailer would be a disaster. I'm probably the last person that should own any trailer-I'm very much not mechanically inclined. Not to mention that I have no space and no time. The Tab's reputation for quality and great customer service definitely contributed to my decision when I bought it. It's been largely issue free so far. (touch wood!)


My garage has an 8' tall door and I think 12' ceilings. My garage at my last place had 14' ceilings, but I think a 7' door. With the awning bolted to the roof rack on my camper, it's about 6' 5" tall so I've got plenty of space.

I ended up cancelling my campsite reservations for the weekend. Delta looks like it's going to be bringing a lot of rain to the southeast this weekend and I'm not really enthused about the prospect of just sitting inside it all weekend. I can do that at home. Was already considering leaving the bikes home and at that point, the whole trip kinda fell apart.

Wife has tomorrow off of work, and we would have spent it driving. Well, since it looks to be the best day of the weekend, we're staying home so we can actually do something fun instead of driving.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Harold said:


> My garage has an 8' tall door and I think 12' ceilings. My garage at my last place had 14' ceilings, but I think a 7' door. With the awning bolted to the roof rack on my camper, it's about 6' 5" tall so I've got plenty of space.
> 
> I ended up cancelling my campsite reservations for the weekend. Delta looks like it's going to be bringing a lot of rain to the southeast this weekend and I'm not really enthused about the prospect of just sitting inside it all weekend. I can do that at home. Was already considering leaving the bikes home and at that point, the whole trip kinda fell apart.
> 
> Wife has tomorrow off of work, and we would have spent it driving. Well, since it looks to be the best day of the weekend, we're staying home so we can actually do something fun instead of driving.


I might upgrade to an 8' door down the road-I think I have clearance to do it. But we have a very conventional, suburban ranch w/attached 2 car garage and we have two garage-kept cars. So there's not really room to put it in there anyway.

Smart to adjust travel plans due to weather if you have the option. Better luck next time!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I recently scored a killer deal on a Dometic fridge for my camper at the local REI garage sale.


1018201724 by Nate, on Flickr

It's the next larger model than the one I had been planning to buy, but it was a deal I couldn't refuse. That larger size has proven to be a challenge to figure out how to use with the camper, being that my teardrop has limited space to begin with. My original plan was to use a tongue box with a slide. Turns out, making that happen will cost at least twice as much as I spent on the fridge.

My next option was to put it in the galley. It's my less preferred method, because I have to change the shelf layout. But I don't have too many other options. The camper already has the battery capacity for it, so putting it in my tow vehicle (pickup truck) is a waste of money on the big battery I just put in the camper. Not to mention I need to be able to comply with food storage restrictions for bears, and the open bed of my pickup truck doesn't make that possible.

I found this example of someone else who has done what I want to do.


fridgeslide by Nate, on Flickr

It's not a common way to mount drawer slides, but Accuride (slide manufacturer) lists this mounting method in their product specs, and gives a weight capacity for it (which is just as much as the fridge slides I've found for sale for $300-$500 that occupy more space). I'm tweaking my build compared to what's in the pic just a touch. I'm going to use slides with locks so I don't have to deal with them moving during transport, and the fridge stays where I want it when I'm in camp. I also learned that my fridge JUST fits into a 26x18 alu baking sheet, so I'm going to attach that to the slides, and run bolts through the bottom of the pan into the threaded holes in the bottom of the fridge to securely keep it in place. The person who shared the pic above only used HD velcro to hold the fridge in place, and I don't trust that on gravel forest roads with lots of bouncing.

I'm hoping I get all the parts before my trip next week. At minimum, I'll have the electrical connectors so I can plug the fridge in. And since I know the parts I'm using for the slides, I can also modify the shelving to get ready, and worst case, I just haul the fridge without the slide next week. I'll be dry camping, so I'll get a chance to see how the battery does with the fridge for 3 days.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Looks like my drawer slides won't arrive in time, but the electrical connections should.

Took some time today to raise the shelf in my camper to make room, giving a little extra clearance for the sliders underneath it when those arrive. It JUST fits.


1024201506 by Nate, on Flickr


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

evasive said:


> Different people have different priorities. I'd rather set a camper and have the freedom to be mobile during the day without breaking camp.


That approach works out pretty well for us. We'll set up the trailer in a campground then roam around to different riding areas, etc. with the truck.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

it's time for a bump. Anyone have winter upgrades or new toys?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Crossed over 100k on the Promaster, Fiat replaced my DPF system and the radiator, I popped for new belts and thermostat, so it's ready for another 100k.

I got some new black spoke wheels and snow tires, plus sized with lower offset, so it looks wide and mean.

Trimmed the wheel wells for clearance and added a 1.5" block to boost the rear end a touch; I was already running a single leaf spring and heavy duty bouncers.

Propane heat, fridge, led lights, fan, sunroof, overhead and under bed storage, platform bed, jump seat console, two bikes inside, five bikes outside, 20/26 mpg.

I got a new job, sixty miles round trip, so I'm getting a commuter car to save wear and tear on the van, looking at a Prius V.

On average, with the kids eight hours away in Utah, friends and riding in Oregon/Washington, and good winter riding six hours away in Vegas, we spend at least two nights a month sleeping in the van.

It's hard to go back once you go van.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

At the beginning of December we went camping at Carpinteria State Beach, Just south of Santa Barbara, CA.

Sunny and 70 degrees everyday, nice and cool for a campfire n whisky at night.

In the photo below my Trailer is on the far left, My black suburban parked next to it. It was a short hop over the sand dune to the beach, we spent a lot of time sitting in this spot in the chairs:


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

I am so jealous of this. I literally started salivating looking at that beach. I love the snow and mountain home, but somehow I've got into my head that this whole covid thing won't be over for me until I'm camped on a beach somewhere.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

watermonkey said:


> I am so jealous of this. I literally started salivating looking at that beach. I love the snow and mountain home, but somehow I've got into my head that this whole covid thing won't be over for me until I'm camped on a beach somewhere.


It was one of the best camping trips I have ever done. We camped there the year before, on the opposite side of that loop, and it rained pretty much everyday... was miserable.


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## MrIcky (Oct 2, 2007)

Has anyone started getting reservations for summer '21? I have found that many of the state campgrounds in my state (ID) are already close to full.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

MrIcky said:


> I have found that many of the state campgrounds in my state (ID) are already close to full.


I suspect a repeat of 2020 in limited availability.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Cleared2land said:


> I suspect a repeat of 2020 in limited availability.


Yup.

Makes me glad to have a little thing I can boondock with. I set up accounts with Hipcamp and The Dyrt this year when I was working on a particular weekend trip. I ended up able to dirtbag camp that weekend, but I suspect if I want to go somewhere, I'll be checking those services as part of my planning process.

Not many free sites on public land in the eastern half of the country, so I'm not going to be banking on using one after a long drive. I might only try to get one of those close to home so the driving penalty is lower trying to hunt for an open one.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

We rarely stay in campgrounds, mostly we dry camp on NF or BLM.

I like to think of camping as something you do to get away from people, campgrounds are full of people.

I feel for folks who don’t have access to extensive public lands. My property backs up to BLM, public lands iterally surround my town, quite a lot of NF land if I head toward the mountains.

Harold, didn’t you use to live out West?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Harold, didn't you use to live out West?


Yeah, I used to. I wouldn't say there's no such thing as dry camping out there, but it's EXTREMELY LIMITED. As in, most people aren't even aware that it's possible to do. Let alone where they might be able to do so.

Less limited where I am now, but people being dickwads about the available sites have caused the land managers to make it hard to find sites that fit a camper, for one. It's even hard to find sites that comfortably will fit a van. Sure, you can park in the available parking spots for those sites along the side of the road, but you're RIGHT ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD. So if someone passes by in the middle of the night, they'll probably be inches from you.

I think the biggest culprits are the rainbow gathering type folks who essentially live out of their old-ass campers, and the land managers had to keep chasing them around every 2 weeks. Now, there are only a few sites where they can park those RV's, so when they finish up their 2 week stay, they have to go somewhere else entirely. Not just half a mile down the road.

The vast, vast majority of the available roadside sites are pretty well limited to tent camping. Folks with vans can get away with dirtbagging in many USFS trailhead parking lots. I MIGHT be able to do so with my teardrop camper, but I haven't tried. I dirtbagged once this year, and I don't necessarily care to get into a habit of that. The trailheads will get traffic during the day, at minimum, so it's not like you can spread out and enjoy "camp" so much.

I might look into reserving one of the USFS group camps in the area. There are 3 that sit in the middle of different parts of the local trail network, so there's plenty of riding to be had right out of camp. They're big enough so even if you invite a few people to hang out with you, you can still spread out and feel like you're pretty secluded. 2 of them, I KNOW I can get my teardrop into. The other one, I'm not sure about as there's a gate that the USFS keeps locked. It's possible that they only unlock it to drive service vehicles back there.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yeah, I spent twenty years in the south, it’s very tough finding free camping and campgrounds are often full.

It’s so damn good out here, never have an issue finding camping, for the most part they’re even cool about sleeping at trail heads.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yeah, I spent twenty years in the south, it's very tough finding free camping and campgrounds are often full.
> 
> It's so damn good out here, never have an issue finding camping, for the most part they're even cool about sleeping at trail heads.


Oh, I'm pretty sure that there's no rule prohibiting sleeping at the trailheads here. At least the USFS ones. You can park to go ride or hike whenever, even overnight. I just don't WANT to do that if I don't have to. I want to be able to spread out a little bit and relax. The trailheads get busy enough that it's just not a place I'd enjoy the same.

The trailhead I dirtbagged at in Oct was okay to do so. Some other folks showed up one night and did the same thing in an actual RV. It just wasn't enjoyable. It was exposed to the wind, and I ended up riding out a tropical storm up there. It also happened to be THE weekend that the park managers locked the restrooms for the season. So I had to drive a mile down the road to find a toilet at a grocery store. The shelter I knew existed happened to sit in a low spot, so it got flooded out by the tropical storm. Therefore, no dry, covered spot to set up my campstove for coffee. And with restrooms being a mile away, I didn't exactly need that gastrointestinal stimulant.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harold said:


> Yeah, I used to. I wouldn't say there's no such thing as dry camping out there, but it's EXTREMELY LIMITED.


I have a different definition than you apparently.


Dry Camping - any Campground that does not have water/power hookups in the sites.
Most campgrounds that do not cater to RV's are like this. They have bathrooms, a water source - generally a spigot. The sites have Tables, fire rings, generally with a flip over grill. There is general use bathrooms and sometimes outdoor sinks.

Dispersed Camping - Area's that allow camping, but "if" they have "sites" the most they would have there is a fire ring made of rocks, no tables, no bear/squirrel boxes, no grill or fire ring grill. No "campground" water spigot. no bathrooms.
many Dispersed Camping area's have no official sites. For Example, many BLM OHV area's are like this. Random "sites" that are just nice places to park where others have made a small ring of rocks for a fire.

Boondocking - The same as Dispersed camping, but not in an area that officially allows it. - Just pulling down a random dirt road and parking, etc.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Klurejr said:


> I have a different definition than you apparently.
> 
> 
> Dry Camping - any Campground that does not have water/power hookups in the sites.
> ...


Here, the USFS maintains marked sites alongside some of the gravel roads for dry camping. They are free. But have 2 week time limits, IIRC. Most of them have no space for anything bigger than a van, and the parking spot is less than desirable. To get off the road, you have to have a tent to get back to the marked site. Some are right off the road. Others require a bit of a walk. But they are marked, designated, and maintained by the USFS. They have a metal fire ring and usually a picnic table.

You can boondock/dirtbag camp in many (if not most) roadside parking areas in the forest, as far as I understand (by these, I mean the little bitty parking lots at trailheads or overlooks that might fit as few as 1 or 2 vehicles). There is generally no place to spread out here. Most of them are also right off the road, so desirability is low. But they exist.

Here, with the thick forests and general lack of level ground, dispersed camping is pretty much reserved for backpacking/bikepacking. Some people do the minimum required walk off the road to do this, and they sometimes bring a massive pile of crap with them, but around here, you're not driving to the campsite. You're either parking in a wide spot in the road, or in a little parking lot, basically.

I'm using the words mostly interchangeably with regards to what's available/accessible around here. Dry camping might be at a campground, but might not. The only thing relevant is that there's no hookups. If you want to refer specifically to campground dry camping, it's still pretty rare here. I know of 1 actual campground that works this way. But dispersed car camping basically doesn't exist here. The way I guess I'm using it, boondocking is basically the same as dry camping, except without a campground where you can park. The only difference is really the concentration of people as I use the words.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I never really thought about it it until I started camping with an RV that had water tanks. That is when I learned the term "Dry Camping" to refer to anywhere you camp that you cannot connect shore water or shore power to your RV.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Shore power?


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Oh please, there is no limit to dry camping if you're motivated enough. A truck stop, a random road pull off, a gas station, a rest area....out here in the west nobody cares.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

twodownzero said:


> Oh please, there is no limit to dry camping if you're motivated enough. A truck stop, a random road pull off, a gas station, a rest area....out here in the west nobody cares.


You might be able to do those things, but I wouldn't say that they're all necessarily desirable.

I've slept in truck stops and such out of necessity while in transit. But that's not what I want as a destination.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

twodownzero said:


> Oh please, there is no limit to dry camping if you're motivated enough. A truck stop, a random road pull off, a gas station, a rest area....out here in the west nobody cares.


I think we're talking about dry camping in places that don't suck.

So yeah, out West it's pretty good if you're away from urban areas, but in the East it's not so simple because most of the land is private.

If the East was more like the West; more large expanses of public land, I'd consider living out there again, but now I'm just too spoiled.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

twodownzero said:


> Oh please, there is no limit to dry camping if you're motivated enough. A truck stop, a random road pull off, a gas station, a rest area....out here in the west nobody cares.


A guy I know at work is an avid snow boarder. He just did a weeklong trip to Mammoth Mountain in California and "dry camped" in his Jeep SUV at the Vons Shopping center parking lot. Said the lot had a bunch of other "campers" in Vans n mini-motorhomes. He said he used the bathrooms at the mountain to "clean up" at the end of the day.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I definitely enjoy those large expanses of public land.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Last I lived in the east it was still pretty easy to boondock camp from say N Jersey up and Arkansas South. Pennsylvania was quite easy but given that you kinda needed to know general areas. Heck even Southern Jersey you could easily get away from everything in the pine barrens.

I live in a major metropolitan area now and could easily dump a body 30 minutes out no one would ever find. This past summer all the easy...and nice off road spots were chuck full of the meth head element and their trash. Mind blowing just how much of that was around. 

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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I never had an issue overnighting or longer in a resort parking lot. Here's Baker a couple of weeks ago









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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

WHALENARD said:


> I never had an issue overnighting or longer in a resort parking lot. Here's Baker a couple of weeks ago
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that rain?

Yeah, resorts up north don't seem to care, only seems to be an issue where there's lodging (Tahoe)


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Got my fridge slide done today. Haven't been motivated to work on this project in the cold garage over the winter, and it warmed up enough that I wasn't freezing my azz off laying on the concrete floor.


0313212110 by Nate, on Flickr


0313212113 by Nate, on Flickr

I measured it out pretty well (and moved the shelf just enough). it _just_ fits.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^ What size?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Cleared2land said:


> ^^ What size?


CFX3 55IM

Maybe a little bigger than I wanted originally, but couldn't pass it up at the REI garage sale where I found it.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Looks great Harold!


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

2 months...this thread has been quite. Time to wake up thread.


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## Jing (Sep 4, 2013)

I've reconfigured my RV situation, about 3 months ago I sold my truck and camper and bought a van. I got the Promaster 159" wb, wanted to buy used but the market is crazy now so I bought new. Just a big metal box when I got it, slowly building out around trips. Great way to travel, I love that the bikes are inside and always secure.

















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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I much prefer to able to keep bikes inside, clean and secure.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Looking good, I've got 110k on my diesel Promaster 118, looking to upgrade to a gasser 136 tall ... might splurge for an AWD Transit.


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## Jing (Sep 4, 2013)

Been a long time since I’ve had a non 4WD, hope the FWD works out, we’ll see...


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## iliketexmex (Oct 29, 2016)

That van looks great. What a nice way to travel.


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## ElTortoise (Jul 27, 2015)

First time seeing this thread and toying with the idea of buying a Sprinter based RV. Yes, I need to be able to pack at least 1 mountain bike preferably inside. Just curious if anybody has one and a particular model or setup they would recommend? Any particular cons or caveats of a Sprinter based RV? Leaning towards diesel, not sure if I really need 4WD but open to suggestions...


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

With the used car market what it is right now, and the whole "van life" craze, used cargo vans are stupid expensive and most that are affordable need lots of work. If you have the skills to build it yourself and all the repairs needed, it wouldn't be too bad. I keep toying with a 12' cargo trailer conversion, which would be more roomy than a van plus a lot less expensive and easily customizable.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Yeah, the RV market is even worse than the used car market, so if you're thinking of buying one that's already been converted to an RV, then I think you're looking at some pain.

I have a teardrop camper that's done well for me for awhile. There have been a few occasions it hasn't, though. The lack of indoor living space for bad weather has been the major challenge. I'm okay holing up inside it for a bit during bad weather, but my wife is one of those people who has a difficult time disconnecting, and she starts getting nuts pretty quick. A cargo trailer conversion just might be the ticket. I could keep some of the items from my teardrop and move them over to a cargo conversion to save a little bit of money (mattress and fridge, in particular). With the RV market what it is, I'm pretty sure I could sell my teardrop for close to what I paid for it and get a pretty good start on a new build. Maybe wait until this summer season is over to start a new build.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ElTortoise said:


> First time seeing this thread and toying with the idea of buying a Sprinter based RV. Yes, I need to be able to pack at least 1 mountain bike preferably inside. Just curious if anybody has one and a particular model or setup they would recommend? Any particular cons or caveats of a Sprinter based RV? Leaning towards diesel, not sure if I really need 4WD but open to suggestions...


Cons:

Cost of entry with a fully built one
Cost of time to build one yourself
You have to drive your home anytime you want to leave camp for something and need a vehicle (i tow a trailer and once camp is setup my tow vehicle is free for driving around as needed.)
Pros:

You can travel faster on the freeway
Better MPG's in most cases (compared to towing a trailer)


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The time has come for a new van build, my 2015 Promaster 118 low diesel has served us well, but I'm ready for all wheel drive and more head room 

Criteria: More head room, a little more length, more reliable, gas only, AWD/4WD

I went through the usual hemming and hawing, looking at build options which included:

Sprinter AWD 140 High - Highest base price, diesel only, higher cost to maintain, hard to find used or new, highest resale
Nissan NV High with AWD after market - Fugly, available used, not cheap to build out, gas motors, lowest MPG of the bunch, poor resale, easiest to find, they are being discontinued
Transit AWD 130 Mid Crew - New only, not cheap but less costly than a Sprinter, gas motors
Transit 130 Mid with AWD after market - New or used, not cheap to build out, gas motors, price approaches an AWD Transit
Promaster 136 High - My default, an overall good vehicle, best bang for the buck, lowest deck height which means lowest overall height with a tall roof, fewest options.

The winner: Transit AWD 130 Mid Crew, non turbo, 54K out the door, ouch!
Second Place: Used Promaster 136 High, least costly, easiest to build, no frills.
Runner Up: Nissan NV High with AWD after market. I really like the idea of the Nissan, but the low roof is too low and the high roof is too high. Great tow vehicle and the only one truly overland capable. But damn, it's a fugly thing!!

Why no Sprinter? Frankly, I had a Sprinter once, they are expensive to buy and even more expensive to maintain. If they made the AWD with a gasser, I'd consider one.

Why no diesel? Emissions, emissions, emissions. Trust me, it's the five hundred pound gorilla that rarely gets mentioned.

Why no turbo? K.I.S.S.

The market has gone from easy pickings to slim pickings... order now and wait six months for delivery


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Congratulations on your selection and your homework.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Anyone here have the pleasure of changing the release chute on the Black Water tank?

When we last camped in December I noticed a constant drip from it. We camped at the beach so I was able to dump a pile of sand under it to catch the leak..... it was gross.

We dumped the tanks at the campground before leaving and I tossed a blue pack and a few gallons of water into the tank. When we got home it still was leaking, but now it was mostly just the blue water.... still gross.

Last week I ordered a replacement, and opened the hatch and cleaned it out, removed the old chute and let it dry for a day. Putting the new one on was easy enough and it no longer leaks.... but man that was not fun. Could have been worse I guess.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ The life of an unpaid plumber.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Truth be told, I'll probably buy a used Promaster for 25-30k, that's a whole lot easier on the pocketbook than spending 50k on a Transit AWD.

These days we have three vehicles, so it's not as necessary to have a new vehicle.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Harold said:


> Yeah, the RV market is even worse than the used car market, so if you're thinking of buying one that's already been converted to an RV, then I think you're looking at some pain.
> 
> I have a teardrop camper that's done well for me for awhile. There have been a few occasions it hasn't, though. The lack of indoor living space for bad weather has been the major challenge. I'm okay holing up inside it for a bit during bad weather, but my wife is one of those people who has a difficult time disconnecting, and she starts getting nuts pretty quick. A cargo trailer conversion just might be the ticket. I could keep some of the items from my teardrop and move them over to a cargo conversion to save a little bit of money (mattress and fridge, in particular). With the RV market what it is, I'm pretty sure I could sell my teardrop for close to what I paid for it and get a pretty good start on a new build. Maybe wait until this summer season is over to start a new build.


LOL! I had some guy knock on my door to ask if I wanted to sell our trailer. He offered $5,000 cash on the spot.... For a $20,000 trailer. Yeah, no thanks. Even if he offered more, I have no inclination to sell it since we really love it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Curveball said:


> LOL! I had some guy knock on my door to ask if I wanted to sell our trailer. He offered $5,000 cash on the spot.... For a $20,000 trailer. Yeah, no thanks. Even if he offered more, I have no inclination to sell it since we really love it.


ha! you're in the driver's seat! I bet you could get 25k for it easy right now. saw an ad for a trailer company in my facebook feed the other day. first comment was a question about lead time. manufacturer responded and said reservations made that day (this was asked 8wks ago, mind) were scheduling delivery in summer of 2023. no question people will pay more for something they can get right that moment. the problem for you is that YOU can't just go and grab something to replace it right away, no matter how much money you have in hand.

I have a feeling cargo trailers have something of a shortage right now, too. have driven by a few lots where they're sold lately, and their stock is super low. Will probably keep up with what I have and just add some accessories to address at least some of the comfort issues we have. most of them will be items we could use no matter what we're sleeping in.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

In my research I learned a couple things:

Adding four wheel drive is not just expensive, but the installation is custom, so custom machined parts, which means a failure could be expensive and tough to fix.

Adding a pop top is similar in many ways to adding four wheel drive,, lots of room for error, numerous bad results.

Best bet: Buy a vehicle with four wheel drive and a high top.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> Truth be told, I'll probably buy a used Promaster for 25-30k, that's a whole lot easier on the pocketbook than spending 50k on a Transit AWD.
> 
> These days we have three vehicles, so it's not as necessary to have a new vehicle.


FWIW, my brother drives a Transit for his work van and has had some very serious problems, including complete brake failure with it.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Curveball said:


> FWIW, my brother drives a Transit for his work van and has had some very serious problems, including complete brake failure with it.


Yeah, anything is possible, but that's not a common problem with Transits, in contrast to issues with diesels emissions systems and turbos which are known to fail.

When you look at commercial vans for conversions, there are lots of compromises, you just try to pick the one that has the least troublesome issues and the least expensive issues.

Most reliable van is the Transit

Most expensive van to purchase is the Sprinter (it's a Mercedes)

Most expensive van to repair is the Sprinter (diesel, turbo, it's a Mercedes)

Most difficult van to find service is a Sprinter

Want lowest cost to buy and maintain? Avoid aftermarket AWD, Poptop, Turbos, Diesel.

My 2021 Transit AWD Crew Cab 148 3.5 Gas with all the trimmings will run 52k plus tax and licensing. An equivalent Sprinter would cost at least 10k more. Long run costs of ownership would be significantly higher with the Sprinter, figure 5k additional costs per 100k miles.

It's curious that Sprinters are so popular,. I suppose looks tend to trump all other things


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Adding four wheel drive is not just expensive, but the installation is custom, so custom machined parts, which means a failure could be expensive and tough to fix.


A friend of mine welds at a shop that does 4wd conversions (among other custom work) on Fords exclusively. Part of the reason they do Fords is because there's a degree of parts interchangeability that you don't get with other vans. Still, there's a lot of custom work they do, and it's common for rich folk to show up with a van, 70k cash, and ask them to have at it.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's curious that Sprinters are so popular,. I suppose looks tend to trump all other things


I think it's all about status.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I think somewhere between 1and 2 years the market is going to be absolutely flooded with vehicles from people that tried van life for a month. The market could even be further favorably driven down if the home delivery market slows, which it could on several fronts. 

In my humble opinion, you need nothing more than a limited slip diff in a van. Vans are big, awkward, and top heavy, they simply aren't cut out for any serious wheeling. I think most would be very surprised at just how capable a limited slip diff is in sand, snow, mud, and steep pitches. Obviously that excludes front-wheel drive like the ProMaster.

For my terrain, here in the Cascades, I simply couldn't get to where I want to in a high roof van. Six vans owned in the last 24 years... don't see that changing anytime soon. Going to be a great summer, already is. 

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Curveball said:


> I think it's all about status.


to a degree. but I think that part of it is also that the sprinter was the first euro style van to hit it big stateside (esp for the popular van conversions), so it's riding the wave of familiarity


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> diesels emissions systems and turbos which are known to fail.


Unless you have a defined turbo need that you can argue its need and added expense, normally asperated is unquestionably the way to go.



WHALENARD said:


> I simply couldn't get to where I want to in a high roof van.


That's what keeps me from a high top vehicle. I go places these simply would not be able access from a height standpoint.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

My wife and I firmly made the decision to upgrade to a new trailer this year. I know prices for new and used are higher than ever... but we use it like 6 times a year for camping and occasionally as a guest room at the house since it fits in the driveway.

We have our hearts set on a Keystone Passport SL 221BH:









It is 26 feet from tongue to bumper and will just fit in the driveway.

Anyone here had much experience with the Keystone Brand? Seems I can find mixed reviews on the different review sites and see the same exact complaints and praise for all the different brands.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Holy cow, I just had another person come to my door to ask about buying it.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Sell it and buy a


Curveball said:


> Holy cow, I just had another person come to my door to ask about buying it.





Curveball said:


> Holy cow, I just had another person come to my door to ask about buying it.


Sell it and buy a van, it's hard to go back once you got the sweet ride ?


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> My wife and I firmly made the decision to upgrade to a new trailer this year. I know prices for new and used are higher than ever... but we use it like 6 times a year for camping and occasionally as a guest room at the house since it fits in the driveway.
> 
> We have our hearts set on a Keystone Passport SL 221BH:
> View attachment 1935437
> ...


My good friend has a Keystone and loves it. He's had it for 6-7 years without much trouble. My Winnebago 2108DS has almost an identical layout as the Keystone you are looking at, minus the bunks. The thing you will love about that setup is the Murphy bed. It makes so much more living space in the trailer. Whatever you get, make sure it has the Murphy bed, you won't be disappointed


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> Sell it and buy a
> 
> Sell it and buy a van, it's hard to go back once you got the sweet ride ?


For one thing, vans are hard come by. Also, I don't think that would work for the whole family.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Sir kayakalot said:


> My good friend has a Keystone and loves it. He's had it for 6-7 years without much trouble. My Winnebago 2108DS has almost an identical layout as the Keystone you are looking at, minus the bunks. The thing you will love about that setup is the Murphy bed. It makes so much more living space in the trailer. Whatever you get, make sure it has the Murphy bed, you won't be disappointed


Nice! Thanks for the personal experiance ofYeah the Murphy bed is the way to go, being able to just shove it up and have a big living space is amazing.

we gotta have the bunks for the kids. The lower bunk folds up for storage of chairs or kids bikes. There is even a small hatch door on the back for loading it.

We have looked at a number of similar sized trailers it's Bunk House setups, but this one tics all the boxes for us.

the new models are a bit taller than my 1997 fleet wood prowler, so I think we need to trim the eves back a bit on the side of the house to make some room.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Curveball said:


> For one thing, vans are hard come by. Also, I don't think that would work for the whole family.


get a really big van, one of those short school buses ?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> get a really big van, one of those short school buses 👍


Oh yeah, a hippie bus! I could then follow Phish around the country.

I could go on a family voyage like Captain Fantastic.


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## SoDakSooner (Nov 23, 2005)

Whew, just read most of the thread. New to the party here. Have only recently gotten bitten by the RV bug. We have had a military trailer and a roof top tent for several years that we pull behind the jeep, and like to boondock and get out in the woods. Would also like to start doing some beach type camping at some point. SOOO...We've been researching a camper that is made by a company called Imperial outdoors in Wisconsin. Very pricey for the size but is rated to -40 f to +140f. Appears to be very well built and solid. Suspension is fully independent and can be raised or lowered depending on terrain.

It is heavy for the size so the Jeep would have to go in favor of a dedicated tow rig. Now if a 4 x 4 sprinter was rated to tow the weight it would be perfect but as of now it looks like a heavy half ton to pull it.

Anyone heard of these guys or seen one of these? Found out yesterday that they are only about 45 minutes from my brother and he was in that area mountain biking last weekend. They got their start making tow on ice houses. Hey if nothing else they use 1upUSA racks in their literature.

Kids are gone..mostly. We are downsizing to a smaller house (I could live in the camper full time but not gonna happen) so now seems to be a good time(once we move). We would sell the trailer and the jeep (and our boat) and be able to pay for either the trailer or truck with no financing, so seems to be a decent move at this point. (we don't currently have a car payment either)

Top pic is current setup (tent is behind kayak)

Thoughts?


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

SoDakSooner said:


> Whew, just read most of the thread. New to the party here. Have only recently gotten bitten by the RV bug. We have had a military trailer and a roof top tent for several years that we pull behind the jeep, and like to boondock and get out in the woods. Would also like to start doing some beach type camping at some point. SOOO...We've been researching a camper that is made by a company called Imperial outdoors in Wisconsin. Very pricey for the size but is rated to -40 f to +140f. Appears to be very well built and solid. Suspension is fully independent and can be raised or lowered depending on terrain.
> 
> It is heavy for the size so the Jeep would have to go in favor of a dedicated tow rig. Now if a 4 x 4 sprinter was rated to tow the weight it would be perfect but as of now it looks like a heavy half ton to pull it.
> 
> ...


I have been reading for a year and my little suggestion would be to go on facebook a VanLife page could offer answers. I am in Quebec so for my area i am on a french one. I am sure that movement is so big in 3 clicks you can be in a very helpfull group of experienced people.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> My wife and I firmly made the decision to upgrade to a new trailer this year. I know prices for new and used are higher than ever... but we use it like 6 times a year for camping and occasionally as a guest room at the house since it fits in the driveway.
> 
> We have our hearts set on a Keystone Passport SL 221BH:
> View attachment 1935437
> ...


We have a very similar Keystone Passport Ultralite. Also 26ft w/ a murphy bed. It's been trouble free (we've had it for four years). Get a pillow top to lay over the stock mattress for the murphy bed, our stock mattress was hella uncomfortable. You can roll the pillow top up and store it behind the murphy bed when you put it up.

We love this trailer.


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## kamper11 (Feb 8, 2008)

been reading the thread a bit over the weeks as we decided "what" will fit our small family. 3 of us. energetic 4 yr old.

Looked at every facet of camper vs van vs real rv etc... I've owned campers when single so have a decent reference point.

We chose the Cross Trek 20xg. 3.5ecoboost w AWD. huge storage under the bed in back with a lot of flex to that space as the current version has the elevator version and access from the coach. add the dinette/bed, legit shower separated from bathroom and a win as a fam unit, small profile functional "RVan"....

Plus - at $26k under list w some 2022 features due to supply chain we scored a deal IMO. Cant buy the skinny Transit and upfit with what we will have for the money - which inc 4 battery bank battery/380w solar. Large fridge/freezer and afroementinoned bath etc..

Its not as high ground clearance as say the sprinter - which my buddy has, but my first service won't be $1200 for an oil/filter change either. 3000 Ford dealers vs 300 MB dealers... f150 drivetrain... pretty excited about it. Plus will use as a ski hill lodge this winter as the lil guy moves into that phase in greater capacity(likely without water in the coach even tho it has heated tanks). I was surprised it comes w Hankook Dynapro AT's... had em on a truck and a solid AT tire.

Wont lie about finding what we did - we almost gave up and one emerged w a cancelled pre sell where credit fell thru.

Ill post up after I fly in and drive home.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

kamper11 said:


> been reading the thread a bit over the weeks as we decided "what" will fit our small family. 3 of us. energetic 4 yr old.
> 
> Looked at every facet of camper vs van vs real rv etc... I've owned campers when single so have a decent reference point.
> 
> ...


It seems you made a great pick. For upnorth one thing is clear RUSTPROOFING is a must.
I read a lot of positive about Ford but also a lot of rust problems. Kind of every year $ spent
on that is a big saver.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mlx john said:


> We have a very similar Keystone Passport Ultralite. Also 26ft w/ a murphy bed. It's been trouble free (we've had it for four years). Get a pillow top to lay over the stock mattress for the murphy bed, our stock mattress was hella uncomfortable. You can roll the pillow top up and store it behind the murphy bed when you put it up.
> 
> We love this trailer.


Where is "behind" the Murphy? We were planning on the pillow top, we have one in our current trailer. Do you have to memory foam topper? I was wondering if we could just leave the memory foam topper on and fold it up into the Murphy.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

SoDakSooner said:


> Whew, just read most of the thread. New to the party here. Have only recently gotten bitten by the RV bug. We have had a military trailer and a roof top tent for several years that we pull behind the jeep, and like to boondock and get out in the woods. Would also like to start doing some beach type camping at some point. SOOO...We've been researching a camper that is made by a company called Imperial outdoors in Wisconsin. Very pricey for the size but is rated to -40 f to +140f. Appears to be very well built and solid. Suspension is fully independent and can be raised or lowered depending on terrain.
> 
> It is heavy for the size so the Jeep would have to go in favor of a dedicated tow rig. Now if a 4 x 4 sprinter was rated to tow the weight it would be perfect but as of now it looks like a heavy half ton to pull it.
> 
> ...


If we did not have the small kids we would still be tent camping. I love the idea of those old military trailers with a rooftop tent, slide out kitchen stove, etc. then we could pull one into the backcountry.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Where is "behind" the Murphy? We were planning on the pillow top, we have one in our current trailer. Do you have to memory foam topper? I was wondering if we could just leave the memory foam topper on and fold it up into the Murphy.


We have a 4" memory foam mattress on top of ours. It stays there when we fold it up


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

WHALENARD said:


> I think somewhere between 1and 2 years the market is going to be absolutely flooded with vehicles from people that tried van life for a month. The market could even be further favorably driven down if the home delivery market slows, which it could on several fronts.
> 
> In my humble opinion, you need nothing more than a limited slip diff in a van. Vans are big, awkward, and top heavy, they simply aren't cut out for any serious wheeling. I think most would be very surprised at just how capable a limited slip diff is in sand, snow, mud, and steep pitches. Obviously that excludes front-wheel drive like the ProMaster.
> 
> ...


Top heavy and awkward?...Pffffft!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

last summer when my wife and I looked at some travel trailers, we considered a murphy bed, and I honestly thought the ones in the campers we looked at were a bit flimsy/fiddly. it was easy to get crooked and jam. maybe it was just the particular brand/model of RV we were looking at and how they chose to implement the murphy bed.

but I honestly kinda like not converting my bed every day.

the memory foam mattress in my teardrop is foldable and I can make it into a couch, but I never do because it's just annoying to have to do something with the bedding when I want to make a couch, and then when I want a bed, I have to get all the bedding and make the bed. meh.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

TNC said:


> Top heavy and awkward?...Pffffft!
> View attachment 1935852
> View attachment 1935852


Funny you post that. I actually saw a van on its side this weekend on a forest road. It was a mint condition Uncle Rico type van. Didn't take much either, maybe an 8-10" rut.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Harold said:


> last summer when my wife and I looked at some travel trailers, we considered a murphy bed, and I honestly thought the ones in the campers we looked at were a bit flimsy/fiddly. it was easy to get crooked and jam. maybe it was just the particular brand/model of RV we were looking at and how they chose to implement the murphy bed.
> 
> but I honestly kinda like not converting my bed every day.
> 
> the memory foam mattress in my teardrop is foldable and I can make it into a couch, but I never do because it's just annoying to have to do something with the bedding when I want to make a couch, and then when I want a bed, I have to get all the bedding and make the bed. meh.


That's the beauty of the Murphy bed. Don't have to do anything but tilt it up when not in use, let it down at night. It has a strap with a buckle but we never use it. Everything stays in place, even the pillows. But ours doesn't have a space behind it big enough for the pillows to fall into. Works perfectly


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)




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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Anything can be rolled if you don't know how to drive, clearly the van driver was clueless.

Vans are not top heavy unless you outfit them that way, so avoid mounting stuff on the roof, don't jack up the suspension, keep your weight down low, even something simple like having a full gas tank can help.

In the case of Mr Rollover ^, he was pulled over by the trailer after taking a bad line.

What you need to ask your self is whether you should be driving a fully loaded van off road while towing a trailer.

What should have happened: park the trailer somewhere, then goes off roading or better yet, don't use your van for offroading.

I use my van for what it was designed for: Driving on roads

I use my mountain bike for what it was designed for: Riding on trails

The two should not be mixed.



TNC said:


> Top heavy and awkward?...Pffffft!
> View attachment 1935852
> View attachment 1935852


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## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

mlx john said:


> View attachment 1937030


Do the bikes ever contact the tongue jack or the trailer when you're turning or backing at tight angles? Using a fork mount rack for now

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

No, the front wheels are on opposite sides of the tailgate. They have to be at an angle because a third of the tonneau cover is still in place, covering the generator and a propane tank. Works pretty well though. 

I've had three bikes back there before w/out the tonneau, generator and tank, no issues.

Next trailer (when our last kid gets through college) will have a 2" receiver for a hitch rack.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Anything can be rolled if you don't know how to drive, clearly the van driver was clueless.
> 
> Vans are not top heavy unless you outfit them that way, so avoid mounting stuff on the roof, don't jack up the suspension, keep your weight down low, even something simple like having a full gas tank can help.
> 
> ...


Ben, I guess you're referring to my pic there? If so, that's not a van with a trailer. That's one of those Mercedes Unimogs. The pic does look funky due to the severe articulation between the cab and camper back. In that pic it does kind of look like a trailer back there...LOL! This pic is from Big Bend NP on the Old Ore Road. That route actually has some decently rough places in it for an NP.

Where he turned it over here, there was nothing challenging. It's a hard left turn on a slight downhill on smooth dirt/gravel with a slight few feet dropoff to the right. He got too close to the right edge, overcorrected to the left and just fell over. This is one of the most popular routes in the park, and it is highly recommended 4WD in some critical spot. This truck laid out there for weeks with different yahoos trying to figure out how to set it back up. There's little room to work with on either side. Four wheel people were pissed because this thing blocked the road the whole time. We dirt motor guys just squeezed past it on the bottom side against the short dirt wall and continued on...LOL!

Eventually some big truck wrecker guy came in and used airbags and creative winching to set it back up. With very little heartburn they got it running, and the owner drove it out. I'm an ex-van camper guy for dirt motor riding and mountain biking in the western U.S. and never abused it like treating it like an off road vehicle even camping in some pretty remote areas.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

kamper11 said:


> Its (Ford Transit) not as high ground clearance as say the sprinter - which my buddy has,


These, or something similar, at least help a bit with the rear ground clearance:









VC High Clearance Shock Brackets for Transit (2013+) - Agile Off Road


Bolt-on Transit high-clearance rear lower shock mounts move the shock 2" up from the factory location for additional ground clearance.




agileoffroad.com


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mlx john said:


> No, the front wheels are on opposite sides of the tailgate. They have to be at an angle because a third of the tonneau cover is still in place, covering the generator and a propane tank. Works pretty well though.
> 
> I've had three bikes back there before w/out the tonneau, generator and tank, no issues.
> 
> Next trailer (when our last kid gets through college) will have a 2" receiver for a hitch rack.


On mine the tongue jack gets suuuuper close, but haven't had any trouble yet. If I loaded up with more than 2 bikes, it probably would, though.

Be leery of putting a receiver on your trailer. The vast majority of hitch racks absolutely shouldn't be installed that way. And most of the ones that can be put on the back of a trailer are junk. I think the 1upUSA HD is the only one I'd use, and it's only rated for 2 bikes when installed that way. Also, most of the receivers installed on trailers like that are far too weak for bikes or cargo platforms. I know that it's possible to get stronger, reinforced receivers installed. But they're definitely not the standard. I see so many dangerously bent or otherwise droopy bike racks and cargo platforms on the backs of trailers and motorhomes because either the receiver is substandard or because the extra dynamic forces on the rack/platform hanging off the extended back end exceed the capacity of the rack/platform.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

A month ago I scraped the awning on a redwood. The crew at Happy Daze RV in Antelope fixed it _fast_, dropped off Monday afternoon and they called us to come get it Wednesday. Can recommend.

Our trailer is a medium-big one with full size bunk beds in the back and a queen in the front. The slide contains only the dinette. There are things I like and things I don't... a lot of the things that seemed difficult for my dad when I was a kid have been solved, that's nice. But god it's chintzy, there are sharp edges everywhere and it's fragile. I wish the queen bed was transverse instead of in line, the cabinetry around it and the pass-thru make it pretty awkward. The counter has an L shape and contains a uselessly large sink and makes it hard to get into the cabinet. The dinette would be better if it were like a 4-person booth and not a U.

We go out two weekends a month in the summer. We still mostly go to RV parks like KOA's and Jellystone. Wife is not very interested in fewer amenities in more interesting places like national parks. I find this frustrating, but as long as the kids are little and we are not doing much ambitious, I guess it's ok.

I put the bikes on the tailgate pad. I scoot it up out of the way during hitchup and then scoot it down to load the bikes. Grownup bikes on the ends with the wheels pointed outboard, kid bikes over the hitch. Have considered just scissoring out the part that covers up the camera and wrapping the edges in gorilla tape and maybe some velcro to keep it from flapping. Can't see doing any real sewing on it... We have also put bikes inside the trailer, which worked ok for the bikes but blocked access to the bathroom during the drive.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

We've gone through many iterations of recreational vehicles, from platformed out toppers on the back of a full sized truck, to slide in pop-ups, to tow behind offroad cargo decked tent trailers, to hard side bumper pulls and now onto, by far, the best rig yet. 26ft RV on an E-450 chassis. From parked to setup is a minute or two. Its small enough that we're getting into places we'd never get with either trailer, and setup and breakdown can be so fast that we'll readily move between locations on any given trip. There's room for my wife and I, our 14 year old and two full sized dogs to live comfortably, boondocking for over a week without resupplying. That includes military style showers at will. Accommodates gear for three for mountain biking (or fatbiking in the winter), 2 IK's and a paddleboard + paddles and pfd's/helmets, flyfishing gear, and backpacking gear if we're pulling overnight hikes away from basecamp (when we leave for longer trips it looks like our garage has been robbed of all its toys). If you've ever driven any kind of commercial vehicle, then this thing is a rocket by comparison. Seriously, we drive it like we stole it. There's overload springs on the rear, upgraded sway bar and steering stabilizers up front. There are few places in Colorado and beyond that we can't comfortably do 70. We are not the RV at the front of the line slowing everybody down. There are very few places that this thing can't go that a 2 wheel drive sprinter can (or worse...a transit). Besides, if we want to go off road, we go offroad for real and tent camp. We can flat tow the Jeep or tow the raft behind. I love this rig. The fly rod rack pivots on a mast I fabricated and rotates to horizontal for flyrod access. That's a 4 bike north shore rack on the back. Couldn't find a cover to completely go over 3 full sized mtbs, but it does a great job of covering the drive train from road spray and salt. Sprinters are stupid, and more expensive.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

watermonkey said:


> We've gone through many iterations of recreational vehicles, from platformed out toppers on the back of a full sized truck, to slide in pop-ups, to tow behind offroad cargo decked tent trailers, to hard side bumper pulls and now onto, by far, the best rig yet. 26ft RV on an E-450 chassis.


I have thought about it, would certainly be easier to travel in. Just the problem of not having a run around vehicle once you get to your destination. We just camped last week and I needed to drive the burban into town a few times, we visited my grandparents one day, we out to lunch the next and attended a zoom funeral another day. Was very odd and probably the most I have ever driven around when on a camping trip. but it is something to consider.

Here was our setup last week at Hurkey Creek near Idyllwild, CA


















This was my first time disengaging the awning poles from the trailer and pinning them down, waaaaaaay better than having the poles getting in the way when walking under the awning.


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## J_Bone (Dec 14, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> I have thought about it, would certainly be easier to travel in. Just the problem of not having a run around vehicle once you get to your destination. We just camped last week and I needed to drive the burban into town a few times, we visited my grandparents one day, we out to lunch the next and attended a zoom funeral another day. Was very odd and probably the most I have ever driven around when on a camping trip. but it is something to consider.
> 
> Here was our setup last week at Hurkey Creek near Idyllwild, CA
> View attachment 1939793
> ...


I concur! I like to have the transportation available and leave the trailer setup at camp.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

I want to drive a motorhome to my destination so I don't have to tow, then magically have a separate trailer/tow rig once I get there, for run around purposes.

Every single RV-ing decision is a compromise!


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

kosmo said:


> I want to drive a motorhome to my destination so I don't have to tow, then magically have a separate trailer/tow rig once I get there, for run around purposes.
> 
> Every single RV-ing decision is a compromise!


The solution might be simple. Get an Ebike, fun in trails and usefull to go from A2B. I do not own a car


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

kosmo said:


> Every single RV-ing decision is a compromise!


 That is absolutely true.


33red said:


> The solution might be simple. Get an Ebike..


 That is absolutely NOT true.


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## kamper11 (Feb 8, 2008)

I'm learning daily just methodically inspecting and documenting the new cross trek, just how many compromises were made when built... I get that covid MFG was tuff, but man - what a comedy of errors, workmanship and no quality controls before releasing to the dealers... if I could literally get them to "buy it back" I'd probably go for that in a heart beat. have some legit buyers remorse. Will give Coachmen a shot to address the growing list, but - compromises of this magnitude are not acceptable IMO


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

kamper11 said:


> I'm learning daily just methodically inspecting and documenting the new cross trek, just how many compromises were made when built... I get that covid MFG was tuff, but man - what a comedy of errors, workmanship and no quality controls before releasing to the dealers... if I could literally get them to "buy it back" I'd probably go for that in a heart beat. have some legit buyers remorse. Will give Coachmen a shot to address the growing list, but - compromises of this magnitude are not acceptable IMO


one thing that's had me holding off on a larger RV is that I simply don't like the build quality of so many of them. I can't imagine how much worse it got during covid when demand ramped up and the factories were really stretching to try to meet it.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

We like our '09 Cougar well enough that my wife has decided to remodel the interior. I've replaced the sinks, repainted the cabinets (and changed the hardware), added stick-on subway tile as a back splash and removed the built in couch/sleeper and replaced it with a loveseat sleeper. 

We bought new flooring last weekend and have found carpet that will work. 

"Her" project is really my project and I didn't really need another one.  It does look good so far though. There's more to do, but we're keeping it usable as we renovate. That means small, complete-able steps and so far it's working.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

My wife assigns me with her projects all the time.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Cleared2land said:


> My wife assigns me with her projects all the time.


It's a (not so secret) club.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

kamper11 said:


> I'm learning daily just methodically inspecting and documenting the new cross trek, just how many compromises were made when built... I get that covid MFG was tuff, but man - what a comedy of errors, workmanship and no quality controls before releasing to the dealers... if I could literally get them to "buy it back" I'd probably go for that in a heart beat. have some legit buyers remorse. Will give Coachmen a shot to address the growing list, but - compromises of this magnitude are not acceptable IMO


Yup, this seems to be a thing. Bathrooms seem especially prone to needing some "attention".

Is the only real solution to rebuild a lot yourself, or go upmarket?

We once looked at an Oliver trailer. Built like a brick shithouse, heavy, and expensive. None of those worked for us at the time, and we ended up with a Lance, which for us at least, fell into the "damn good" category.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

chuckha62 said:


> We like our '09 Cougar well enough that my wife has decided to remodel the interior. I've replaced the sinks, repainted the cabinets (and changed the hardware), added stick-on subway tile as a back splash and removed the built in couch/sleeper and replaced it with a loveseat sleeper.
> 
> We bought new flooring last weekend and have found carpet that will work.
> 
> "Her" project is really my project and I didn't really need another one.  It does look good so far though. There's more to do, but we're keeping it usable as we renovate. That means small, complete-able steps and so far it's working.


I have tossed that idea around in my head. The problem for me with out trailer is to get what I want I would need to move the bathroom and the fresh water tank. All the things I don't like about our layout that I do like about the new model layouts are just not worth the time and effort to remodel ours.

Saw this article:








Vanlifers Are Parting Ways With Their Vans As The World Reopens


Van life took off during the pandemic, but some have found out that it's not what they expected.




jalopnik.com





I think most of us here knew that was gonna happen. I just wonder when the Travel Trailer and Motorhome market will start to change directions. I sorta wanna sell my Trailer now while prices and demand are high and then buy again in the fall.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> I have tossed that idea around in my head. The problem for me with out trailer is to get what I want I would need to move the bathroom and the fresh water tank. All the things I don't like about our layout that I do like about the new model layouts are just not worth the time and effort to remodel ours.


Yeah, fortunately we like our trailer's layout and build quality, so everything we're doing is really cosmetic. I put this sink and faucet in though and it is WAY nicer than what came out of it:


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

chuckha62 said:


> Yeah, fortunately we like our trailer's layout and build quality, so everything we're doing is really cosmetic. I put this sink and faucet in though and it is WAY nicer than what came out of it:
> View attachment 1940217


looks amazing!

I would have to gut me interior and basically start fresh. I don't have the time for such a project.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> looks amazing!
> 
> I would have to gut me interior and basically start fresh.* I don't have the time for such a project*.


Neither do I.

I'm still trying to finish up my '66 FJ and I have a few more items to sort out on my '65 Chris Craft. Between those, working full time and building furniture after hours and on weekends, I'm still trying to find time to ride. I didn't need this one dropped in my lap, for sure.

I figure I owe my wife this one just for putting up with all my **** the last 35 years. I'd like to have this one done about the time she wraps up chemo around the end of August.

We'll see.


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

I have a couple of RVs. One is a 1986 Coachmen 5th wheel, 36' that came with a space we purchased at a private membership campground near Truckee, CA. The space around the pin has been enclosed to turn it into a storage shed and a "snow roof" has been built over it to support the weight of the winter snow. We gutted it and have slowly remodeled it when we're up there on weekends.










We also picked up a smaller travel trailer around the start of the pandemic. Found on Craigslist, the seller bought it to live in in his drive way while his home was remodeled. Project was cancelled and he put it in storage for a year before bothering to sell. We got it for 40% off new. Still had all of the stickers, everything inside still wrapped in plastic. Picture below is earlier this year at Laguna Seca Raceway (Sea Otter/Ft. Ord and yes, I leveled it side to side after taking the photo).


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Just bought a new van, Nisan NV high top, V8. it’ll be converted to 4 x 4.

It’s fugly, but what it lacks in good looks it makes up for in performance.

People keep talking about the van life bubble bursting, I say don’t count on it, lots of disposable income out there and available van inventory is at an all time low.

Good luck finding a van!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Just bought a new van, Nisan NV high top, V8. it'll be converted to 4 x 4.
> 
> It's fugly, but what it lacks in good looks it makes up for in performance.
> 
> ...


Congrats. How ya gonna build it out? Quigley doing the 4x convert? Gonna garage it?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

mikesee said:


> Congrats. How ya gonna build it out? Quigley doing the 4x convert? Gonna garage it?


Tim Dahle Nissan does a factory job using parts from a Titan, even covered under factory warranty. Gonna add a 3" lift, got lots of wheel well so I'm running 275/65 R18.

Nothing fancy inside, solar/trickle to a couple AGM, small fridge between the front seats, Maxx Air fan, Propex heater, storage over wheel wells with a fresh water tank, storage bench behind the driver for electrical/heat/LP/jump seats

The novel idea is using gas filled struts to make a drop down bed, it'll be a trial to get the strut poundage right.

I love my Promaster, but I need more traction, like you I had a few times where I could get up my driveway, it's got 115k so it's time to build a new van.

We tried to get an AWD Transit, but our 2021 order was cancelled and the 2022 order window is not opening &#8230;

The Nissan is interesting, ride quality is much better than a same size Sprinter, power is second to none, shifting is smooth, handling is surprisingly good. The ugly factor and low mpg are my only complaints.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Tim Dahle Nissan does a factory job using parts from a Titan, even covered under factory warranty. Gonna add a 3" lift, got lots of wheel well so I'm running 275/65 R18.
> 
> Nothing fancy inside, solar/trickle to a couple AGM, small fridge between the front seats, Maxx Air fan, Propex heater, storage over wheel wells with a fresh water tank, storage bench behind the driver for electrical/heat/LP/jump seats
> 
> ...


First thing that came to mind is the MPG. That engine with that profile and those tires = single digits?

Amazing that you can get factory 4WD with warranty. Congrats on that.

I miss two things about my PM: The mileage and the turning radius. That said, for all the problems it gave me I'd not ever take it back, for any price.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

I'm just beginning to seriously look at what will fit our needs and fortunately we're in no hurry to make a selection.
I already have a truck with 10k lbs towing capacity, tow package and tranny cooler. So what we select WILL be a trailer type RV. It WILL be under 30'.

Question based on what I'm seeing thusfar: when an ad (CL or other) decribes a trailer as "lite", "ultalite", "light towing", etc.... does that necessarily mean that it won't be winter capable? I'm thinking light weight = little insulation as the trade off.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

TheBaldBlur said:


> I'm just beginning to seriously look at what will fit our needs and fortunately we're in no hurry to make a selection.
> I already have a truck with 10k lbs towing capacity, tow package and tranny cooler. So what we select WILL be a trailer type RV. It WILL be under 30'.
> 
> Question based on what I'm seeing thusfar: when an ad (CL or other) decribes a trailer as "lite", "ultalite", "light towing", etc.... does that necessarily mean that it won't be winter capable? I'm thinking light weight = little insulation as the trade off.


I don't know if there's any real industry consistency when they refer to the various lightweight options. I do know that a whole lot of them are still too big/heavy for me to pull with my truck (7500lb towing, but I want to keep closer to 3500lb for long distance fuel efficiency). but then again I've also encountered models light enough for me to pull that advertise sufficient insulation of the pipes underneath (and sometimes even heating systems for the tanks and pipes) for winter use.

given where things are going in the RV industry WRT demand, availability, pricing, and difficulty with getting sites, I'm going to be holding tight with my current teardrop for awhile, making smaller mods and adding accessories (that I can use later with just about anything) for comfort and extending capabilities. Big advantage with my teardrop compared to something bigger is that its small size gives me more options for boondocking in the east.


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## Offspring (Jan 29, 2006)

I've had an arctic fox 26z since '07, and we've been all over the west with it. It's all season rated but after spend some time in really cold weather it really struggles to get and stay warm, but the best part of that package is we didn't damage any of the water system.

This one has the triple bunks and short queen bed, but tongue to bumper comes in at 30' which has caused issues in older campgrounds. It's got a small 18" slide that I really like, it can be deployed anywhere and still stay within the lines but opens up the inside nicely. This is way more trailer than I need now but it's paid for. I'd like to get in something smaller but at the same time I want a bed that doesn't have to be put together to use, or is jammed up against a wall.

These are heavy trailers at 10k gvwr and it took several years to get the towing set up correct, but once it was it's a dream to tow. Get a good quality hitch, I have a blu Ox. If you can get a set up with 16" wheels so you can put e rated light truck tires on it. Weight the combo when you are loaded and on the road. Out in the west OR leaves their commercial scales on the roads not major interstates, active when closed, this is where I really got my set up dialed-in for real world conditions. I've had a 7.3 excursion since new and had to replace the stock springs with F250 springs to get it right, I didn't like using airbags for this deficiency. It's not high hp/torque of new trucks but its plenty and far less complicated.

This combo has been to Whistler twice, first time was just before the olympics and the day before we were to leave the highway had a massive rockslide that they said would take weeks to clear. It forced us to re-route to the NE and around, to some of the most beautiful scenery we've ever seen. Never regret buying the rv, it has made a lifetime of memories.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

mikesee said:


> First thing that came to mind is the MPG. That engine with that profile and those tires = single digits?
> 
> Amazing that you can get factory 4WD with warranty. Congrats on that.
> 
> I miss two things about my PM: The mileage and the turning radius. That said, for all the problems it gave me I'd not ever take it back, for any price.


Same here, I loved the MPG (high of 28.6) and the turn radius, but after spending $$ replacing the DPF earlier this year I just don't trust it enough to keep it. What I understand is the DPF is a once a 100k replacement item, as are turbos, but with the PM it's big job to get at the DPF; engine pull.

The Nissan is averaging 17 mpg with AC and mountain driving, not bad considering, though I do drive it like it's a Prius 

I got some 275/65 R18 on the way, Cooper ATP tires, nothing too aggressive, I could have gone bigger with stock lift: the wheel wells are huge!

I expect 15 mpg with the 4 x 4 conversion, which isn't bad considering...

Is your Transit conversion done? Turbo or non turbo? 148" What do you average round town and hwy?


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

TheBaldBlur said:


> Question based on what I'm seeing thusfar: when an ad (CL or other) decribes a trailer as "lite", "ultalite", "light towing", etc.... does that necessarily mean that it won't be winter capable? I'm thinking light weight = little insulation as the trade off.


Not necessarily. We had a pretty light (15' and mayb 2,500 pounds?) Lance and it was superbly insulated.

We didn't test it much below 23 degrees, but it was no problem keeping warm at those temps.



Nurse Ben said:


> The Nissan is averaging 17 mpg with AC and mountain driving, not bad considering, though I do drive it like it's a Prius


We test drove the Nissan. Loved the V8. IMO, if it ticks all your boxes, the slightly lower mileage is just the price you pay to have what you want.

Nice factory 100k warranty to boot.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

kosmo said:


> Not necessarily. We had a pretty light (15' and mayb 2,500 pounds?) Lance and it was superbly insulated.
> 
> We didn't test it much below 23 degrees, but it was no problem keeping warm at those temps.
> 
> ...


If you can ignore the looks and some body quality issues, the engineering is solid and it drives great, never thought I'd have a V8 but it works. Warranty is pretty good.

Sadly they are discontinued, perhaps Toyota will step into the void?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> If you can ignore the looks and some body quality issues, the engineering is solid and it drives great, never thought I'd have a V8 but it works. Warranty is pretty good.
> 
> Sadly they are discontinued, perhaps Toyota will step into the void?


it's their own damn fault for making something so fugly. for me, a vehicle's appearance DOES play a role in whether I'll consider it. I'm willing to consider something mildly ugly, but there's a certain point I'm not willing to cross.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> it's their own damn fault for making something so fugly. for me, a vehicle's appearance DOES play a role in whether I'll consider it. I'm willing to consider something mildly ugly, but there's a certain point I'm not willing to cross.


You can't tell it's ugly when you're driving down the road


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> You can't tell it's ugly when you're driving down the road


true, but you see it every time you walk up to it. or you see it in the driveway at home.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> true, but you see it every time you walk up to it. or you see it in the driveway at home.


Don't tell your wife you feel this way


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Don't tell your wife you feel this way


I'm pretty sure she'll agree that the van is ugly, too.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> I'm pretty sure she'll agree that the van is ugly, too.


Wwoosh, the sound of something wizzing by your head 😆


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Wwoosh, the sound of something wizzing by your head 😆


oh no, it certainly didn't do that. I chose to respond the way I did


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## idinomac (Apr 5, 2009)

kamper11 said:


> I'm learning daily just methodically inspecting and documenting the new cross trek, just how many compromises were made when built... I get that covid MFG was tuff, but man - what a comedy of errors, workmanship and no quality controls before releasing to the dealers... if I could literally get them to "buy it back" I'd probably go for that in a heart beat. have some legit buyers remorse. Will give Coachmen a shot to address the growing list, but - compromises of this magnitude are not acceptable IMO


Well sadly covid hasn't any affect on the quality + or - well if any it would be more so on the minus side, we started back in 2011 with a pop-up trailer as nice as it was i really didn't like pulling a single axle trailer and have to do all that wiping down after getting home and it had rained when closing it up leaving the campground, then we moved on the a few others but then retirement was coming up and we ended up with a open range 346flr 5th wheel having the rear bedroom raised the trailer had a basement that we put two 12ft kayaks in and two fat bikes at the rear inside the door it wasn't a toy hauler the door was 3ft by 4ft we had it 30 days we were on our way up through Marquette Mi and I turning right into the parking lot of the visitor information place and some guy rear ended us we were going about 3mph turning the guy never hit his brakes; he was doing about 50mph it destroyed the trailer and his truck.

That was a 42ft trailer then after the insurance dust settled we ended up going back to a pull behind TT another open range a 337rls journeyer.... what a pos! The walls had to be replaced under warranty but they didn't get to it until it was just about out of warranty then after the warranty period was over one of the walls started delaminating again but this time they acted like never heard of us, I can fix it cheaper than getting a not for sure attorney, it's been good because we do love having the room with the three slides oh and speaking of the open range cable slides >all three gear boxes and slide motors had to be replaced within the first two years. We had 4 dogs but now three and one is getting very old, we're now in it up in Ely Minnesota until mid September then when we get back home to Florida we're selling it and totally getting away from the RV thing and going back to a tent and hotels, insurance, tires, something always needs fixed or it's about to need it, then the cost of fuel prices have dubbled in a year and we get great fuel mileage anywhere from 10 to 14mpg depending on wind.
But get like 23mpg at 70mph, may go to a lighter trailer like something around 5000 lbs this one fully loaded is around 9500 to 10,000lbs we use to go out for 6mos at a time and now since moving to Florida we're only looking for getting away for a much shorter time period, with the prices of everything going way up it's this industry that's going too be felling the pinch very soon, right now everything has been good but rest assured when fuel prices go up people will stay home, I'm hoping I'm wrong or things go good long enough for us to sell this trailer.

Within the industry of RV's Thro Inc owns most of the names/name brands like Jayco, open range, Keystone and so on, if you are just getting into this the best travel trailers is Outdoors Manufacturing and don't get caught up in the long term financing <that's actually a way for them to turn a 4% lone into 8% if you finance a 15 year loan and also the trailer at the half way point of a 15 year lone "will most likely" only be worth what you owe on it, that's keeping it in tip top shape.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Anybody checked out the new Ekko? Box on wheels for pure utility. Reminds me a bit of an RV Honda Element.

Of course, not cheap........


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Dots between complete thoughts does wonders for the reading audience.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

kosmo said:


> Anybody checked out the new Ekko? Box on wheels for pure utility. Reminds me a bit of an RV Honda Element.
> 
> Of course, not cheap........


*EKKO*
The all-new Winnebago® EKKO™ combines the efficiency of a camper van, the added capacity of a Class C coach, and the enhanced capability of AWD to create not just a new model, but an entirely new type of RV.

*Starting At: $163,662 *

^ WTF!!!!


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> *EKKO*
> The all-new Winnebago® EKKO™ combines the efficiency of a camper van, the added capacity of a Class C coach, and the enhanced capability of AWD to create not just a new model, but an entirely new type of RV.
> 
> *Starting At: $163,662 *
> ...


Right?!

But some fairly interesting ideas in there for do it yourselfers.


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## SoDakSooner (Nov 23, 2005)

Nurse Ben said:


> *EKKO*
> The all-new Winnebago® EKKO™ combines the efficiency of a camper van, the added capacity of a Class C coach, and the enhanced capability of AWD to create not just a new model, but an entirely new type of RV.
> 
> *Starting At: $163,662 *
> ...


Damn! It is nice, but for that kind of $$$ there are a lot of things I would like that aren't there, like a full size bed....


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

SoDakSooner said:


> Damn! It is nice, but for that kind of $$$ there are a lot of things I would like that aren't there, like a full size bed....


First thing that jumped out at me.

For the price of a small home (albeit one with better traction...) I don't think it's asking a lot to have an actual bed.

Lots of gear storage tho.


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## SoDakSooner (Nov 23, 2005)

mikesee said:


> First thing that jumped out at me.
> 
> For the price of a small home (albeit one with better traction...) I don't think it's asking a lot to have an actual bed.
> 
> Lots of gear storage tho.


I did like the storage and the outdoor shower and the 270 degree awning. Lots of stuff to like, but damn are they proud of it.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

SoDakSooner said:


> Damn! It is nice, but for that kind of $$$ there are a lot of things I would like that aren't there, like a full size bed....


I'm trying to figure out how it "sleeps 4" with a twin bed set up.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

SteveF said:


> I'm trying to figure out how it "sleeps 4" with a twin bed set up.


4 kids or 4 adult Hobbits.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I've become hooked on BringaTrailer auctions. I was surprised to see this travel trailer on there. I was even more surprised to see the final price.



https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1950-westcraft-capistrano/


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

chuckha62 said:


> I've become hooked on BringaTrailer auctions. I was surprised to see this travel trailer on there. I was even more surprised to see the final price.
> 
> 
> 
> https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1950-westcraft-capistrano/


Sweet jeebus! The word beautiful doesn't do that justice. But daaaanng the $$$$$$!!!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I’m building a Nissan NV 2500 high top, it’s new, out the door it was 40k, 4x4 conversion with 3” lift us 15k, oversized wheels 2.5k, DIY conversion cost with solar, windows, furnace, bed system, fridge, etc will run 10k.

I’ll probably have 150-200 hours in the van conversion. It’ll be our trip mobile but it’ll double as a hauler and daily driver.

Less than 70k for a new V8 4x4 conversion van 👍


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Sir kayakalot said:


> Sweet jeebus! The word beautiful doesn't do that justice. But daaaanng the $$$$$$!!!


Right?! Would you actually use it to "camp" in?


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

chuckha62 said:


> Right?! Would you actually use it to "camp" in?


No way. I'd be scared just pulling it home. That RV belongs in a museum


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

My friend and his wife picked up this '64 Shasta STS in way North CA a few years ago and did a complete resto. on it.









Welcome to my blog of our new restoration project.1964 Shasta SCS


Super excited for the iconic Shasta Magazine rack Diamond in the rough, found in Hayfork, CA. Has a shower...:) Turquoise...




64shastascs.blogspot.com





I built the cabinets for them but they did the rest.

In some ways it is over-restored. They've been at car shows and people just walk by and say, "Oh, that's one of those repops." When she over hears that, my friend's wife goes nuts!

Before:









After:










It works:


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

chuckha62 said:


> My friend and his wife picked up this '64 Shasta STS in way North CA a few years ago and did a complete resto. on it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a very nice restoration!!!!

did they ever consider putting it on the back of that truck? haha


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm building a Nissan NV 2500 high top, it's new, out the door it was 40k, 4x4 conversion with 3" lift us 15k, oversized wheels 2.5k, DIY conversion cost with solar, windows, furnace, bed system, fridge, etc will run 10k.
> 
> I'll probably have 150-200 hours in the van conversion. It'll be our trip mobile but it'll double as a hauler and daily driver.
> 
> Less than 70k for a new V8 4x4 conversion van ?


Sounds awesome.

Venmoing you 72k for mine.

Delivery required before the annual April trip to Moab!


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

1086 PlayMor 2. Full frame off resto


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

sikocycles said:


> 1086 PlayMor 2. Full frame off resto
> View attachment 1945008
> View attachment 1945009


That's a little dandy. Any pics of the inside?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I've always liked those Shasta trailers. I don't have space to do a resto on my own, and don't much care to just drop something off for someone else to do the same. I'd probably be more likely to buy one that someone else restored. Assuming I could avoid over-paying for it.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

chuckha62 said:


> My friend and his wife picked up this '64 Shasta STS in way North CA a few years ago and did a complete resto. on it.


Way cool! I like that car haul'n truck!


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> That is a very nice restoration!!!!
> 
> did they ever consider putting it on the back of that truck? haha


Not enough space between the fenders. But... somewhere, I have a picture of this:









...on the back of the hauler with the Shasta trailer behind it. They were going to Hot August Nights (in '18, I think). If I can find it I'll post it.

edit: Found it!


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Sir kayakalot said:


> That's a little dandy. Any pics of the inside?


Will post tomorrow


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Just got it back from Tim Dahle Nissan: 4 x 4 + 3" lift. It's got enough wheelwell for 35" tires, but I went conservative with 275/65-18.

It's much bigger in person, like I gotta use the grab handle to pull myself up and in


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Here are some pics of the inside.





















When I started working on it. Was gross.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

More pics.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

That turned out really nice.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

sikocycles said:


> More pics.


How long did all that resto work take? Being a small and relatively simple camper, I don't imagine that it was a super complicated job, at least.

I don't envy the cleaning part of the job, though. I can only imagine how gross it was in there.

I do like fiberglass trailers, though. If I was going to get one, though, I think I'd want one in the 17ft range. If/when I upgrade from what I have, an enclosed bathroom is a priority.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Took about a year and a half. Was a ton of fiberglass work and alot of sanding. The frame had 2 cracks in it that I repaired and also welded on a hitch in the back.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> How long did all that resto work take? Being a small and relatively simple camper, I don't imagine that it was a super complicated job, at least.
> 
> I don't envy the cleaning part of the job, though. I can only imagine how gross it was in there.
> 
> I do like fiberglass trailers, though. If I was going to get one, though, I think I'd want one in the 17ft range. If/when I upgrade from what I have, an enclosed bathroom is a priority.


Size has little do with the amount of work required to rehab a trailer, they have the same structure and systems as a larger trailer.

Fiberglass is a great material, but it takes some special skills and good prep, I did a Scamp 13 restoration a few years ago, it had rotten wood in the floor from a cracked shell, looked good when it was done.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Size has little do with the amount of work required to rehab a trailer, they have the same structure and systems as a larger trailer.
> 
> Fiberglass is a great material, but it takes some special skills and good prep, I did a Scamp 13 restoration a few years ago, it had rotten wood in the floor from a cracked shell, looked good when it was done.


it matters from an amount of materials standpoint and area of work. but at a certain size, you DO start to eliminate systems. when you compare trailers that have/lack a bathroom, there's a notable difference in complexity there.

this one looks to lack a bathroom.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

No bathroom but it was a ton of work.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Often, a labor of love.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

I dug through a handful of pages here in this thread. While I think my setup might be a little spartan for an actual RV thread...it sure works well for what I like using it for! This time last year I was laid off from work. This afforded me the opportunity to build out my truck setup and head out for a month traveling through NM, CO, UT and AR. After it was all said and done, I was ready to come back home, but man I was pleased with my system.

I already owned the truck, it could travel down the road at 75-80 mph with little issue, I could take it as far into the backcountry as I desired, I could fully stealth-camp it in urban areas, and best of all I had a total of $500 in the setup. Lately this summer I'd removed everything so me and my boys could do some MX riding, but just 2 weeks ago, I put it all back together and took my youngest son with me to Angel Fire for a brief trip to ride South Boundary and then the bike park. Honestly, I'm sure it wouldn't prove practical for (near?) full-time living, but for what I want to use it for it fits very well.










This is my initial test fit of everything. I can successfully store both bikes inside with me while I sleep in the truck.


















This is the setup up for when it I use it as a 'double bed' for 2 sleepers. Then I've incorporated a portion to convert into a desk/table for when weather might not permit being outside.










Here is my actual-use setup for when I was headed to Arkansas sans road bike.


















Here is the truck in the wild...top photo is Molas TH and then the lower photo is halfway up to Bolam Pass (behind Purgatory).

Cheers,
CJB


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Picked up a new to us 2016 passport to replace our 1997 fleetwood prowler. Parked it at the DMV while we do some work to a wall in my yard before I pull it in. It is about 2 feet longer than the old one so I need to park it with less angle, hence the wall removal. Taking it camping in a week.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Took the new RV out for a test run this past week at Mount Laguna in Eastern San Diego:










Got a few niggles to work out, but man this trailer has a much better layout than my last one. The slide out makes for so much room inside, having a dedicated bedroom up front is so much better than having to turn the table into our bed each night. Got all the interior and exterior lights swapped from Halogen to LED. I had to run the generator a few times to help top off the batteries cause this spot had a lot of shade. The weather dumped rain and wind on us most of Monday afternoon and evening so having the extra space inside was appreciated since we had to stay inside. Most of the week we had this view where one of the campground loops backs up to the main meadows and trail entrances.


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## dktxracer (Oct 30, 2019)

We bought our first motorhome (Renegade Super C) earlier this year, after having had a travel trailer previously. Love being able to take our Jeep with us to the mountains and offroading, and we've managed to bring 4 bikes with us (2 MTB, 2 road). So far so good.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Thinking about taking the plunge on a travel trailer. Already have a crew cab 2500 so towing isn't an issue. My father has a big class C and has had a ton of problems with it, mostly relating to the slides and the rear cap separating (and the related water damage). I've decided I want to go as simple as possible, but there are a few constraints I have to work with:
1. Wife HAS to be able to take a shower. Non- negotiable.
2. Has to sleep 5, the whole family rides and love taking trips to the mountains.
3. Has to have room for the doggo. Big part of why we want the camper so he doesn't have to be kenneled all the time.
4. No slides. i know the extra space is nice but I'm not willing to deal with the weight/ potential added issues.

So we visited the local RV place and found a bare bones model we were interested. Asking price is around 25% off sticker, and I let them work up some numbers with the F&I guy.

Now I've worked as a mechanic in dealerships for close to 20 years and I've always said the F&I guys were the most crooked people in the biz. Dealership guys have got NOTHING on the RV guys. Holy hell!. $995 freight, $495 prep, $499 doc fee. Then- "Term is 144 months at 6.99%. This is the base payment with out any thing added to it.
But if you add 6 year Extended Service plan, Tire & Wheel , Gap, Paint & Fab Care plan, and Last is 5 years Road Side Service payment is $239.74 @ 180 months and 6.49%. Please let me know what way you like to go. You don't have to get all the services offered but *need to be over 25K financed to get the rate*."

So wait. I'm supposed to agree to all these addons without any idea what they cost? And extend payments three more years? Without the addons it would be $156/ month for 12 years (not gonna finance that long) but they expect me to buy so much other crap that I'll pay an extra $85/month and for three more years?!?! Do people really do this? Are they that focused on the payment that they don't look at whet they are paying for? I would go from paying $22,580 (at 144 months) to $43,153 (at 180 months) by the end of the loans. Sweet Jesus!

Don't think he liked it when I said I would talk to the Credit Union about what options they offered. Wife is so disgusted with the financing shenanigans she's ready to walk away from the whole idea. Good times.


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## dktxracer (Oct 30, 2019)

RV dealers make used car dealers look like saints. It sounds like you know how to spot the BS and get a fair deal from this place, but you might consider finding a different dealer. If they treat you this badly before the sale, imagine what it’ll be like when you need any warranty work.

I hear you on keeping it simple, including avoiding slides. One thing I’ve noticed though. Unless you get an Airstream ($$$), the travel trailers I’ve seen without slides are usually the entry level cheaply made models that fall apart. Hopefully that isn’t what you’re looking at, but something to consider.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

My 1997 fleetwood prowler 23LS is for sale. No slides. Big shower, sleeps 5 and room for a doggy.









Fleetwood Prowler 23LS Bunkhouse - rvs - by owner - vehicle...


1997 Fleetwood Prowler Triple Bunkhouse, 23 foot box, total length from Hitch to Bumper is about 26 feet. We have owned this RV for 2.5 years and are the third owners. Previous owner custom built a...



sandiego.craigslist.org


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Thinking about taking the plunge on a travel trailer. Already have a crew cab 2500 so towing isn't an issue. My father has a big class C and has had a ton of problems with it, mostly relating to the slides and the rear cap separating (and the related water damage). I've decided I want to go as simple as possible, but there are a few constraints I have to work with:
> 1. Wife HAS to be able to take a shower. Non- negotiable.
> 2. Has to sleep 5, the whole family rides and love taking trips to the mountains.
> 3. Has to have room for the doggo. Big part of why we want the camper so he doesn't have to be kenneled all the time.
> 4. No slides. i know the extra space is nice but I'm not willing to deal with the weight/ potential added issues.…





dktxracer said:


> One thing I’ve noticed though, Unless you get an Airstream ($$$), the travel trailers I’ve seen without slides are usually the entry level cheaply made models that fall apart. Hopefully that isn’t what you’re looking at, but something to consider.


Klurejr‘s doesn’t look too bad. I dig the bunk set up.

We went the airstream route and picked a used airstream over the summer. Was looking at buying a brand new non-airstream trailer, but for about the same price, ended up with a significantly nicer trailer than what we could have bought new. And it looks like this airstream should keep its value unlike a new camper.

Here is a used one that will fit 5 and all your other constraints. My guess is you could sell it for the same price in the future when you go to sell it.









1998 Airstream 30FT Classic For Sale in Granbury - Airstream Marketplace


1998 Airstream I have owned for 10yrs; Replaced brakes two yrs ago, Tires two Yrs ago, Front lift replaced last yr; We have found that we are not using the Airstream as we are now in our 70’s; It is in great shape; Can be seen in Granbury TX My cell is 817-202-5534




www.airstreammarketplace.com





and here is a shinier one, but not sure if it would sleep 5…








1973 Airstream 29FT Land Yacht For Sale in Knoxville - Airstream Marketplace


1973 Airstream Ambassador M- 29T, $28,500 Vintage Original -Very good condition. Covered Storage Purchased out of New Mexico in August 2017 – Located in Knoxville, TN Serial Number: I29T3-S2901 Dry Weight: 4825 lbs. Fresh Water Tank: 45 gal Holding Tank: 17 gal Two twin beds and ¾ couch/bed –...




www.airstreammarketplace.com


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

I live in a 30ft trailer just outside Yellowstone National Park for 4 months every year. As a remote base it works well not moving constantly. Good used trailers are widely available that have only been used 2 weeks a year. But there is one very important caveat. We are on our second used trailer. The first one had a tire explode taking out the wheel well and all the infrasture that ran just above the wheel well. That includes the ac, dc, sewer, water and propane lines. It was impossible to fix without removing all the cabinets and appliances on that side of the trailer. Happened to my buddy on his 5th wheel tool. The trap is that even tho the used Trailer has been lightly used and looks great including the tires the tires have a fixed life. The rubber degrades over time and the lifespan is only 5-6 years. We never see it in our cars because we wear them out before they get end of life. So if you get a 10 year old trailer in like new condition, get new tires. Period.

I was a backpacker all my life. Never thought I would end up with an RV, never attracted me. But as you get older you adapt so you can keep riding. A used trailer is a great route just do the homework.

P.S> SLide outs really make a difference in the space inside.


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## J_Bone (Dec 14, 2014)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Thinking about taking the plunge on a travel trailer. Already have a crew cab 2500 so towing isn't an issue. My father has a big class C and has had a ton of problems with it, mostly relating to the slides and the rear cap separating (and the related water damage). I've decided I want to go as simple as possible, but there are a few constraints I have to work with:
> 1. Wife HAS to be able to take a shower. Non- negotiable.
> 2. Has to sleep 5, the whole family rides and love taking trips to the mountains.
> 3. Has to have room for the doggo. Big part of why we want the camper so he doesn't have to be kenneled all the time.
> ...


I was just going to list my 24’ Winnebago trailer. If interested, shoot me over a PM and I can give you details and pictures?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mike_kelly said:


> The rubber degrades over time and the lifespan is only 5-6 years. We never see it in our cars because we wear them out before they get end of life. So if you get a 10 year old trailer in like new condition, get new tires. Period.


Part of that is that the typical trailer tire has a different construction than your car/suv/truck tire. Bias ply vs. radial. My teardrop tires are hitting that time frame in 2022, and I'm looking to replace them with radial A/T tires for better gravel road handling.

The other thing, too, is that the lifespan depends on how much sun they've been exposed to. If stored outside without tire covers, then 5-6yrs is probably too much. My teardrop is garaged (part of the reason I stayed small was so that I could store it in my own garage), so I'm not getting the UV exposure.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Be careful putting car tires on a trailer. The sidewall construction on a car tire does not allow for side loading like a trailer tire does. You can turn a trailer tight enough to side load the tire and roll the bead off the rim. NOT nearly as likely with a single axle trailer, as with a double axle, though.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

chuckha62 said:


> Be careful putting car tires on a trailer. The sidewall construction on a car tire does not allow for side loading like a trailer tire does. You can turn a trailer tight enough to side load the tire and roll the bead off the rim. NOT nearly as likely with a single axle trailer, as with a double axle, though.


it's a teardrop. EXTREMELY common to put A/T tires on these.


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## dktxracer (Oct 30, 2019)

Harold said:


> it's a teardrop. EXTREMELY common to put A/T tires on these.


Plus, teardrops are typically single axle trailers. They rotate easily and don’t have nearly the side scrub / sidewall loading as a double axle.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

J_Bone said:


> I was just going to list my 24’ Winnebago trailer. If interested, shoot me over a PM and I can give you details and pictures?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure, some pics would be great. [email protected]

Although my wife is very intrigued by the Airstream in TX. Appreciate the heads up on that one.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Thinking about taking the plunge on a travel trailer. Already have a crew cab 2500 so towing isn't an issue. My father has a big class C and has had a ton of problems with it, mostly relating to the slides and the rear cap separating (and the related water damage). I've decided I want to go as simple as possible, but there are a few constraints I have to work with:
> 1. Wife HAS to be able to take a shower. Non- negotiable.
> 2. Has to sleep 5, the whole family rides and love taking trips to the mountains.
> 3. Has to have room for the doggo. Big part of why we want the camper so he doesn't have to be kenneled all the time.
> ...


We were in the market for a trailer back in 2017. Went to Camping World, found a model we liked. The salesperson totally misjudged us or something. We were planning on buying it outright. He started talking all of the aformentioned nonsense (the ridiculous interest rate, monthly payment, add-ons). We were a bit confused when he quoted a monthly payment. Then he told us it would be a 10 year loan. My wife actually laughed and asked him if he was joking. Have never set foot in a Camping World since. 

We ended up buying a Keystone Passport (Just like Klurejr's) at a local family owned dealer. They were great, no BS. Loved that Passport, and we've used it so much over the last 4 years. Now that we've got the RV bug, want to do some more winter RV'ing, last kid is on the way to college in a year and half, so traded the Passport in and bought a used '17 Lance 2285 at the same dealer.

If you're anywhere near Albuquerque, it's Rocky Mountain Marine and RV. Don't have any affiliation w/them, they are just good people. Gave us about 5.5k over what we were willing to settle for on the Passport trade in and saved about 15k on getting the used Lance.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Harold said:


> Part of that is that the typical trailer tire has a different construction than your car/suv/truck tire. Bias ply vs. radial. My teardrop tires are hitting that time frame in 2022, and I'm looking to replace them with radial A/T tires for better gravel road handling.
> 
> The other thing, too, is that the lifespan depends on how much sun they've been exposed to. If stored outside without tire covers, then 5-6yrs is probably too much. My teardrop is garaged (part of the reason I stayed small was so that I could store it in my own garage), so I'm not getting the UV exposure.


UV yes. I think trailer tires have extra chemicals in them to help fight UV damage. Part of what makes them different from car tires. 

Watch too for a tire that has been neglected and towed while it has low air pressure. The tire will run hot from excess flex while towing. The carcass will then delaminate from that abuse and not necessarily fail then but will fail later. Fail even if re-pressurized to the right pressure for the next tow. I think previous abuse of low pressure is part of the reason someone will see a failure on the road.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

mike_kelly said:


> But there is one very important caveat. We are on our second used trailer. The first one had a tire explode taking out the wheel well and all the infrasture that ran just above the wheel well.


Crap RV tires -- new or used -- is a common topic on RV sites. With a new RV, it isn't too hard to "dig down" on the interweb and figure out whether or not you're getting decent tires. With a used RV, I'd proceed directly to a knowledgeable tire store and get fitted up with quality shoes.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

All tires have a date code. THey changed the format at a certain year but you can look it up on the internet and find out when the tires were made.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mlx john said:


> We were in the market for a trailer back in 2017. Went to Camping World, found a model we liked. The salesperson totally misjudged us or something.


Is that a rule for Camping World or something. Salespeople that are not only pushy, but dumb.

After a horrendous weekend trip with incessant winds, my wife was pushing hard for a full travel trailer with a kitchen, shower, the works.

My Ford Ranger has a 7500lb towing capacity, but the fuel economy goes to absolute hell when you push that capacity and with a smaller 18gal gas tank, I'm not pulling anywhere close to max capacity for a long road trip, and that's the kind of thing a camper is actually for. Found one she liked that was in the 3500lb dry weight range. RV dealer was trying hard to sell us on it. I wasn't convinced because even though it was in the weight range I wanted, the thing had a HUGE frontal area on it, in addition to the fact that it was lifted for gravel roads. That's another thing that'll absolutely suck the gas tank dry. Dude was really pushing hard and when I told him that keeping fuel economy as high as possible so I'm not stopping for gas all the time, he acted like I was killing babies or something.

We visited a couple other dealers that didn't treat us remotely that way.

The other thing I'm not thrilled about is that if we size up, we're going to be on the hook for a monthly fee for someplace to store it. Our neighborhood doesn't prohibit RV storage outright, but it does have requirements on screening it from the road, as well as parking it on concrete or asphalt, not gravel. All of that would be a pretty major landscaping project and I'm not convinced that we even have a suitable spot with the slope and layout of our lot.

So rather than an RV upgrade, I think I'm going to prioritize purchasing some property. Then I could purchase a larger travel trailer much closer to the max towing capacity of my truck and pretty much just park it there, only moving it when necessary for maintenance or whatever. And no storage fees. Then use that for lodging for awhile, building a cabin and pole barn later.


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## dktxracer (Oct 30, 2019)

Harold said:


> …After a horrendous weekend trip with incessant winds, my wife was pushing hard for a full travel trailer with a kitchen, shower, the works.
> 
> My Ford Ranger has a 7500lb towing capacity…


Trucks have massively overrated tow capacities. They’re marketing driven numbers, unfortunately. Your Ranger, as a practical matter, has more like a 5K lb towing capacity. Look at the payload sticker on your door jamb, divide that number by 0.15, and that’s a better approximation. The 0.15 represents a 15% tongue weight.

Also, I’ve seen quite a few examples of travel trailers flipped over because they’re being towing by Ranger size trucks. These were all double axle trailers. I think you would be okay with a single axle RV though, because single axle by definition means it’s a smaller and lighter RV.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dktxracer said:


> Trucks have massively overrated tow capacities. They’re marketing driven numbers, unfortunately. Your Ranger, as a practical matter, has more like a 5K lb towing capacity. Look at the payload sticker on your door jamb, divide that number by 0.15, and that’s a better approximation. The 0.15 represents a 15% tongue weight.
> 
> Also, I’ve seen quite a few examples of travel trailers flipped over because they’re being towing by Ranger size trucks. These were all double axle trailers. I think you would be okay with a single axle RV though, because single axle by definition means it’s a smaller and lighter RV.


The one we were looking at was a single axle.

Sure, towing numbers are marketing driven. But consider that outside the US, most vehicles have much higher towing ratings than they do here because ours are required to be more conservative.

You also have to consider the application. For a long road trip, I'd absolutely want to be well under the max limits. For me, I want to be around 50% of max for long drives. For ease of handling, fuel economy, component strain, all of it. But I wouldn't hesitate to tow near max across town for a short trip.

I've seen a lot of dumb stuff and I'm convinced that it has more to do with people being idiots (doing what the salesperson at CampingWorld told them?) than anything.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

My first trailer I did my homework. The 6 cyl S10 pickup was rated for 6600lbs towing capacity. I purchased a 23ft ultra light trailer that came in a 3700lbs. The S10 pulled it fine on the flats but when we hit the Rockies it just about killed the pickup. I don't trust company towing capacities any more.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mike_kelly said:


> My first trailer I did my homework. The 6 cyl S10 pickup was rated for 6600lbs towing capacity. I purchased a 23ft ultra light trailer that came in a 3700lbs. The S10 pulled it fine on the flats but when we hit the Rockies it just about killed the pickup. I don't trust company towing capacities any more.


what about the mtns was trouble for you? I'm surprised that truck was rated that high. it was MUCH smaller than my current one. my dad had one (maybe a 1999?), fwiw.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

It had a terrible time getting over the passes. Overheated. Ruined the whole distributor shaft from stress. Just could not handle it.


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

Drag is what kills those little trucks. Big difference between a 5,000 pound boat and a 5,000 RV. There are usually frontal area limitations on the maximum rated towing specs for most vehicles. In addition to the fact that you normally can't physically load the trailer in a manner that doesn't exceed axle or hitch ratings usually. As Harold correctly noticed, the frontal area and drag is what makes it a stressful experience. I recently pulled a 5,500ish scaled enclosed trailer with my V6 Colorado. Didn't die, but wouldn't want to do it for hours on end and it was screaming on any significant hill (did manage to keep up with traffic, just annoying). Slapped the same trailer behind my 1 ton van and felt like nothing was back there in comparison. Other than leaving more space between myself and the car ahead in the event of a hard braking maneuver being needed.

For occasional trips though, meh, just deal with it. If you put a couple thousand miles a year with the trailer behind you, I would look for a teardrop or other really lightweight. Just IMHO and I know people drag all sorts of loads for millions of miles a year just fine. But a personal story of mine is my buddy had a half ton Chevy Avalanche and was well versed in pulling his ski boat with it. Bought a 27 foot RV that technically fit all the weight limitations. I took one look at it and told him he better buy a bigger truck despite the salesperson's insistence it would be fine. Got a text a few hours later of the truck and trailer upside down on the highway. Fortunately his wife was following behind with their infant. He now drives a 3/4 ton.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mike_kelly said:


> It had a terrible time getting over the passes. Overheated. Ruined the whole distributor shaft from stress. Just could not handle it.


yeah, I wondered. big mountains are certainly a case where I'd want extra extra towing capacity.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

shakazulu12 said:


> Drag is what kills those little trucks. Big difference between a 5,000 pound boat and a 5,000 RV. There are usually frontal area limitations on the maximum rated towing specs for most vehicles. In addition to the fact that you normally can't physically load the trailer in a manner that doesn't exceed axle or hitch ratings usually. As Harold correctly noticed, the frontal area and drag is what makes it a stressful experience. I recently pulled a 5,500ish scaled enclosed trailer with my V6 Colorado. Didn't die, but wouldn't want to do it for hours on end and it was screaming on any significant hill (did manage to keep up with traffic, just annoying). Slapped the same trailer behind my 1 ton van and felt like nothing was back there in comparison. Other than leaving more space between myself and the car ahead in the event of a hard braking maneuver being needed.
> 
> For occasional trips though, meh, just deal with it. If you put a couple thousand miles a year with the trailer behind you, I would look for a teardrop or other really lightweight. Just IMHO and I know people drag all sorts of loads for millions of miles a year just fine. But a personal story of mine is my buddy had a half ton Chevy Avalanche and was well versed in pulling his ski boat with it. Bought a 27 foot RV that technically fit all the weight limitations. I took one look at it and told him he better buy a bigger truck despite the salesperson's insistence it would be fine. Got a text a few hours later of the truck and trailer upside down on the highway. Fortunately his wife was following behind with their infant. He now drives a 3/4 ton.


Makes sense to me. I pull from Wisconsin to Montana and the flats of the Dakota's always have strong winds moving east. I got a used Suburban and it pulls it fine. But when the first trailer was killed by the tire explosion I did not trust the towing rating of the Suburban for the much heavier second replacement trailer. Got a 9500lbs towing vehicle for the 7000lbs trailer and it works fine.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

I learned a lot on the first purchase, not knowing anything about rv's that I should mention to others. I first thought I should get a super light trailer for towing gas mileage and to match the towing capacity of the S10. There were costs to that decision. First there are liabilities to a super light trailer. The floors were lightened by making them from a sandwich of 1/8" plywood and two inch foam board. You spill any water and the plywood softens, the foam cracks and your floor becomes mush. Example two was the plastic molded wheel well. Expired tire exploded taking out the whole wheel well liner, which was held in by three staples, destroying all the water, sewer, electric, propane lines that ran right above the wheel well. The trailer looks cosmetically good inside and out but is unrepairable and useless. All the cabinetry would have to be removed to solve either problem. Food for thought. Look beyond the cosmetics when you purchase a unit.

For those on a budget, like us, being a volunteer for the Forest Service or Park service is a way to get out to the wild places and having a full hook up site for 25 hours of work a week. We love it. We spend our summers 6 miles outside of Yellowstone National Park. Our RV enables us to be there. Go to volunteer.gov to search for opportunities.


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

In recent years American truck sellers have had to meet the J2807 federal standards for towing. Prior to its implementation each company could do as they pleased and higher tow numbers were used for marketing and sale purposes. 

I care about safety and how long it takes with a trailer in tow to accelerate to a high enough speed to merge with trucks and trailers and speeding pickup truck drivers while I am getting onto the highway. My last pickup was a 1-ton diesel and I could merge as easily with a 13,000 lb trailer as with my Prius. In the past I towed two-horse trailers with a 1/2 ton pickup with a small gas engine and 3-speed transmission and I did this one time as a favor for a friend. I would not do this ever again. 

If you buy a used tow vehicle and get one with a good size engine and a truck frame (as with the larger SUV's like the Tahoe) and it only gets 15 mpg the amount you spend on gas will be far less than the financing and sales tax on a new tow vehicle. If you are only towing a matter of a dozen days out of the year then there is no need to go to a smaller lighter duty tow vehicle. 

The hard side popup trailers are also going to provide far less air drag and be much easier to tow and less subject to the forces of cross winds.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

My F150 has a max tow capacity of 10,700. I'd guestimate that our current Lance w/water (we do a lot of boondocking) comes in close to 6000#. The Passport was probably closer to 5500# w/water. Have the 3.5 ecoboost which has 470 ft pounds of torque, transmission cooler and the twin turbos are appreciated at elevation/mountain passes.


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## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

My 2015 f150 with the ecoboost twin turbo has been a disappointment towing.
Fuel mileage tanks (5.7 mpg) while towing my 4300 lb camper. Truck dealer told me to" suck it up, you're towing a trailer with the aerodynamics of a cinder block."


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## dktxracer (Oct 30, 2019)

1spd1way said:


> My 2015 f150 with the ecoboost twin turbo has been a disappointment towing.
> Fuel mileage tanks (5.7 mpg) while towing my 4300 lb camper. Truck dealer told me to" suck it up, you're towing a trailer with the aerodynamics of a cinder block."


I had a similar year F150 eco boost and got rid of it for that reason. I was towing long distances, and the terrible mileage + tiny gas tank meant stopping frequently to refuel, which isn’t easy when towing a trailer. 

I traded it in for an F250 diesel and it was worlds better. 10-12 mpg, much better power, and better stability. Plus, with diesel, you can add or replace the fuel tank. I swapped out the OEM tank for a 55 gallon. I could go 400+ miles between refueling when towing. When not towing, I could go almost 700 miles.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

1spd1way said:


> My 2015 f150 with the ecoboost twin turbo has been a disappointment towing.
> Fuel mileage tanks (5.7 mpg) while towing my 4300 lb camper. Truck dealer told me to" suck it up, you're towing a trailer with the aerodynamics of a cinder block."


Weird. With the Passport we would get about 10-12mpg. Now about 9-11mpg. This is mostly at elevation 5000ft+.

When looking at Ford trucks the 23 gallon tank was a deal breaker. Had to have the 36 gallon tank.


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## mpowers (Mar 9, 2015)

This is my rig as we drove across country this year from Williamsburg Va to Sedona, Moab, Zion (pic), Santa Cruz and many more places. I went with the PowerBoost F150 for several reasons, fuel mileage, generator, etc. trailer loaded was roughly 4200lbs on Cat scales. Mileage was all over the map. Which was heavily influenced by my speed or the speed of the oncoming wind. Some places I ran 70mph with a returned 13/14mpg others with a 35-50mph headwind, 5-6mpg. Those days I did lots of drafting off truckers or other campers. Typically avg an easy 13mpg on the east coast rolling 65. We try to stay lite and small to keeping moving easy. Previous tow vehicle for the camper was a Subaru Ascent, which did well. When we decided to go west, decided it would probably die in the process and I’m sure the wind we hit would have killed it. Otherwise for short trips, it was good. I could stuff the Subie and trailer about anywhere and was stable. Camper has a dry weight of 3200lbs.
Years ago I did have a f250 7.3l diesel which I used to tow 14000lb race car and trailer. It didn’t give a sh!t what was behind or in front. The built in genny of the f150 is what’s really sweet, park anywhere and have a/c, microwave, etc. with no noisy stand alone generator. Or worry someone would steal it. Also was great at those dry campsites that didn’t allow generators after xx hour. No one even heard my truck idle for a minute or two every so often. Sorry, I’m only 45, so don’t shoot me for poaching in the over 50 crowd, 😝


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## propchef (Apr 20, 2014)

Calsun said:


> In recent years American truck sellers have had to meet the J2807 federal standards for towing. Prior to its implementation each company could do as they pleased and higher tow numbers were used for marketing and sale purposes.
> 
> I care about safety and how long it takes with a trailer in tow to accelerate to a high enough speed to merge with trucks and trailers and speeding pickup truck drivers while I am getting onto the highway. My last pickup was a 1-ton diesel and I could merge as easily with a 13,000 lb trailer as with my Prius. In the past I towed two-horse trailers with a 1/2 ton pickup with a small gas engine and 3-speed transmission and I did this one time as a favor for a friend. I would not do this ever again.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I think the Tahoe or any of the full sized GM SUVs is a poor choice. The same running gear as their pickup counterparts but they weigh much more right out of the gate. This limits their cargo capacity. Then there's the issue of the live axle, the suspension points, and the overhang all contributing to a poor ride. If new is out of the question, then one of the best tow vehicles available in the half-ton range is the Porsche Cayenne/Volkswagon Taureg. The BMW X5 is another excellent vehicle and is one of Europes favorite tow vehicles. Any of the larger European SUVs will tow as well but handle much better than almost any current half-ton PU. 

Choice of wheels and tires on the tow vehicle as well as the shape of the trailer are important for stability. The transmission, rear gear ratios, and running gear cooling systems all factor in. 

GVWR is not a safety rating, and staying under it does not mean you're safe because many other factors come into play. 

It's fun to see the towing debate on a mtn bike forum! lol RVer's never agree.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

propchef said:


> If new is out of the question, then one of the best tow vehicles available in the half-ton range is the Porsche Cayenne/Volkswagon Taureg.


stay away from the reliability reviews of the touareg, then.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

mpowers said:


> This is my rig as we drove across country this year from Williamsburg Va to Sedona, Moab, Zion (pic), Santa Cruz and many more places. I went with the PowerBoost F150 for several reasons, fuel mileage, generator, etc. trailer loaded was roughly 4200lbs on Cat scales. Mileage was all over the map. Which was heavily influenced by my speed or the speed of the oncoming wind. Some places I ran 70mph with a returned 13/14mpg others with a 35-50mph headwind, 5-6mpg. Those days I did lots of drafting off truckers or other campers. Typically avg an easy 13mpg on the east coast rolling 65. We try to stay lite and small to keeping moving easy. Previous tow vehicle for the camper was a Subaru Ascent, which did well. When we decided to go west, decided it would probably die in the process and I’m sure the wind we hit would have killed it. Otherwise for short trips, it was good. I could stuff the Subie and trailer about anywhere and was stable. Camper has a dry weight of 3200lbs.
> Years ago I did have a f250 7.3l diesel which I used to tow 14000lb race car and trailer. It didn’t give a sh!t what was behind or in front. The built in genny of the f150 is what’s really sweet, park anywhere and have a/c, microwave, etc. with no noisy stand alone generator. Or worry someone would steal it. Also was great at those dry campsites that didn’t allow generators after xx hour. No one even heard my truck idle for a minute or two every so often. Sorry, I’m only 45, so don’t shoot me for poaching in the over 50 crowd, 😝
> View attachment 1959600


I have a 4000 watt inverter generator that I run off of propane, powers everything, but that 7200 watt onboard generator is sweet. Something for me to think about when the kiddo finishes college.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

propchef said:


> Sorry, but I think the Tahoe or any of the full sized GM SUVs is a poor choice. The same running gear as their pickup counterparts but they weigh much more right out of the gate. This limits their cargo capacity. Then there's the issue of the live axle, the suspension points, and the overhang all contributing to a poor ride. If new is out of the question, then one of the best tow vehicles available in the half-ton range is the Porsche Cayenne/Volkswagon Taureg. The BMW X5 is another excellent vehicle and is one of Europes favorite tow vehicles. Any of the larger European SUVs will tow as well but handle much better than almost any current half-ton PU.
> 
> Choice of wheels and tires on the tow vehicle as well as the shape of the trailer are important for stability. The transmission, rear gear ratios, and running gear cooling systems all factor in.
> 
> ...


I have a 2012 Suburban LTZ with the 5.3L LS motor. It makes 320hp and 335lb tq. Because it is the LTZ it has air ride suspension and self levels under load, and I run the sway bars on my trailer. It is not as quick up grades as a diesel, but it tows our 27 foot 4730lb trailer without struggling and can still manage 65 to 70 on all but the steepest grades. It has 136k miles and I am very happy with it. I generally tow without filling up the water tanks since 50 gallons of water is 800lbs. But I will have bikes on the back, bikes inside, generator, ice chest, full fridge, extra propane etc, so I would guess at least 1k lbs extra on the load, plus some gear in the vehicle itself.

if you go older you can find 3/4 ton models, some with the 454, some with the 6.2 diesel, those 80’s diesels had low hp numbers, but we’re solid for towing and the hd versions of the burban could handle bigger loads than mine can.
They are fine for towing if you stay within your capabilities and drive smart.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I think we have 3 RV threads now. Any objections to me merging them all and them all residing in the automotive and vehicle section?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Klurejr said:


> I think we have 3 RV threads now. Any objections to me merging them all and them all residing in the automotive and vehicle section?


nope


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> I have a 2012 Suburban LTZ with the 5.3L LS motor. It makes 320hp and 335lb tq. Because it is the LTZ it has air ride suspension and self levels under load, and I run the sway bars on my trailer. It is not as quick up grades as a diesel, but it tows our 27 foot 4730lb trailer without struggling and can still manage 65 to 70 on all but the steepest grades. It has 136k miles and I am very happy with it. I generally tow without filling up the water tanks since 50 gallons of water is 800lbs. But I will have bikes on the back, bikes inside, generator, ice chest, full fridge, extra propane etc, so I would guess at least 1k lbs extra on the load, plus some gear in the vehicle itself.
> 
> if you go older you can find 3/4 ton models, some with the 454, some with the 6.2 diesel, those 80’s diesels had low hp numbers, but we’re solid for towing and the hd versions of the burban could handle bigger loads than mine can.
> They are fine for towing if you stay within your capabilities and drive smart.


We have GMC Yukon XL with the towing package; self leveling air suspension, 3.42 axle ratio, external transmission cooler, engine oil cooler and other goodies. Plenty of power. Live in the Sierra Nevadas so pretty much always towing in the mountains or down and then back up. No problem towing our 25’ airstream up steep grades loaded over 6’500lbs (5,100lbs dry). Average about 10-12mpg towing as most is in the mountains. Towed other trailers as well, hardly noticed this 23’ wolf pup going from Truckee to Fort Brag and back. Wife had to remind me I was towing. Have an expensive sway/distribution hitch that we haven’t used yet as the long wheel base of the XL handles highway cross winds and big rigs fine and winding mountain roads without fuss. Not so sure a shorter wheelbase suv like the X5 would handle that well without a sway/distribution hitch.

Quite nice to drive too with multi adjust cushy leather air conditioned seats, heated steering wheel/seats. Heated captains chairs in second row, multiple climate zones, dual tvs. Plenty room for the 2 kids and 2 large dogs. Of course, all those extras eat up the payload, so most everything is loaded into the trailer. We have about 200 lbs of payload left over after all our body weight is accounted for along with the >10% tongue weight.

Works for now, but eventually will need to get a 3/4 ton truck when the boys are teenagers. Would love to find a good, used 2500 Yukon XL with about 1k more payload.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

singletrackmack said:


> We have GMC Yukon XL with the towing package; self leveling air suspension, 3.42 axle ratio, external transmission cooler, engine oil cooler and other goodies. Plenty of power. Live in the Sierra Nevadas so pretty much always towing in the mountains or down and then back up. No problem towing our 25’ airstream up steep grades loaded over 6’500lbs (5,100lbs dry). Average about 10-12mpg towing as most is in the mountains. Towed other trailers as well, hardly noticed this 23’ wolf pup going from Truckee to Fort Brag and back. Wife had to remind me I was towing. Have an expensive sway/distribution hitch that we haven’t used yet as the long wheel base of the XL handles highway cross winds and big rigs fine and winding mountain roads without fuss. Not so sure a shorter wheelbase suv like the X5 would handle that well without a sway/distribution hitch.
> 
> Quite nice to drive too with multi adjust cushy leather air conditioned seats, heated steering wheel/seats. Heated captains chairs in second row, multiple climate zones, dual tvs. Plenty room for the 2 kids and 2 large dogs. Of course, all those extras eat up the payload, so most everything is loaded into the trailer. We have about 200 lbs of payload left over after all our body weight is accounted for along with the >10% tongue weight.
> 
> ...


Yeah when my kids get a bit bigger we will get an HD truck and change the travel trailer for a toy hauler. But for now this vehicle is great. You have the 6.2L and I think over 400 hp in your Yukon, so yeah you tow better than me.w


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## propchef (Apr 20, 2014)

singletrackmack said:


> We have GMC Yukon XL with the towing package; self leveling air suspension, 3.42 axle ratio, external transmission cooler, engine oil cooler and other goodies. Plenty of power. Live in the Sierra Nevadas so pretty much always towing in the mountains or down and then back up. No problem towing our 25’ airstream up steep grades loaded over 6’500lbs (5,100lbs dry). Average about 10-12mpg towing as most is in the mountains. Towed other trailers as well, hardly noticed this 23’ wolf pup going from Truckee to Fort Brag and back. Wife had to remind me I was towing. Have an expensive sway/distribution hitch that we haven’t used yet as the long wheel base of the XL handles highway cross winds and big rigs fine and winding mountain roads without fuss. *Not so sure a shorter wheelbase suv like the X5 would handle that well without a sway/distribution hitch.*
> 
> Quite nice to drive too with multi adjust cushy leather air conditioned seats, heated steering wheel/seats. Heated captains chairs in second row, multiple climate zones, dual tvs. Plenty room for the 2 kids and 2 large dogs. Of course, all those extras eat up the payload, so most everything is loaded into the trailer. We have about 200 lbs of payload left over after all our body weight is accounted for along with the >10% tongue weight.
> 
> ...


The wheelbase isn't used as a metric by the manufacturers for towing capacity. The Yukon (and those built like it) have a live rear axle and an overhang over 40%. The X5 is closer to 23%. This makes a HUGE difference in the towing stability. My X5 would handle that Wolf Pup like it wasn't even there, without WD/Sway bars, since the BMW is programmed to have anti-sway built-in to handle trailers up to 3500 lbs. That trailer also lists a 400 lb tongue weight, but it's likely really around 500+ but still not heavy enough to be problematic. 

Everyone uses what they are comfortable with, but the notion that only a huge American-made PU (or SUV) can handle a trailer is simply not true.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I think we have 3 RV threads now. Any objections to me merging them all and them all residing in the automotive and vehicle section?


Yes. Objection. I enjoy this thread, and seldom if ever visit the auto section. 🙃

Also, I really enjoy the level of civility in this Old Fogeys Forum!


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

kosmo said:


> Yes. Objection. I enjoy this thread, and seldom if ever visit the auto section. 🙃
> 
> *Also, I really enjoy the level of civility in this Old Fogeys Forum!*


Wait until they have their coffee and try to answer these. Fogeys debating RV's are next level.

1. What half ton should I get to pull my triple axle fifth wheel?
2. Gas or diesel?
3. Using only capital letters, what is the best oil? Exclamation points are encouraged.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harold said:


> nope





kosmo said:


> Yes. Objection. I enjoy this thread, and seldom if ever visit the auto section. 🙃
> 
> Also, I really enjoy the level of civility in this Old Fogeys Forum!


So one vote for the merge, one vote to not merge. Anyone else care to chime in?

To me is it pointless to have 2 big threads for the same thing, I would consider merging the one from the Vehicle section to this one and leave it hosted in the 50+ section.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> So one vote for the merge, one vote to not merge. Anyone else care to chime in?


I said no. What else do you need?! 🙃


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Makes sense to merge them. Where and how is up to you


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

So the Airstream that was linked above sold before I got a chance to have someone look at it. Walked away from Camping World, wife was just really turned off by their sales tactics. Went to an independent dealer an hour north of us and found a trailer we really like. Turns out once my wife was in a trailer with a slide I was overruled and we had to have one. Looking at a 30" Keystone Springdale 280BH. Has double bunk beds for the kids, front queen for the grownups, u-shaped dinette and a couch. Outside kitchen, hose port for washing bikes, and an outside shower for when we get muddy. Has a HUGE (in rv terms) pantry, big enough it has hookups for a washer/ dryer. Not planning to use it for anything but storage but the space is nice.

How does everyone haul bikes while towing? I have a Velocirax 5X on my truck and my wife has a Thule T2 Classic for when they ride without me. Thought about a front hitch but decided didn't like the bikes out front. Afraid the Velocirax will be too heavy for the rear bumper of the trailer. Leaning toward starting with the tailgate pad I have in the basement and eventually upgrading to a Yakima Bedrock rack with trays over the bed of my truck. Thoughts?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> How does everyone haul bikes while towing? I have a Velocirax 5X on my truck and my wife has a Thule T2 Classic for when they ride without me. Thought about a front hitch but decided didn't like the bikes out front. Afraid the Velocirax will be too heavy for the rear bumper of the trailer. Leaning toward starting with the tailgate pad I have in the basement and eventually upgrading to a Yakima Bedrock rack with trays over the bed of my truck. Thoughts?


You don't just have to worry about the weight of your rack (sure, that's a big factor), but rather whether your rack is going to be able to handle the extra dynamic loading it'll get being mounted onto the back of a trailer with lots of vertical movement. 1UpUSA HD racks are, but only for 2 bikes. I see too many people putting excessively heavy stuff back there.

I only tow a teardrop, but rolled through all these considerations on my own years ago. Figured that using the pickup bed for bikes was easily the best choice (I can also go roof mount). I'm using an Exodux Multitaskr, though the bikes' front wheels get a little close for comfort to the tongue jack on the trailer. So my backup plan is to use fork mounts on a board in the bed when towing, and then use the exodux when the trailer isn't attached (it folds up really well, so that's generally not a problem).


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## dktxracer (Oct 30, 2019)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Turns out once my wife was in a trailer with a slide I was overruled and we had to have one. .....
> 
> How does everyone haul bikes while towing? ....


I totally get the simplicity and reliability of no slides. But as you saw, they make a huge difference on the interior space. You can do a few things in advance to prepare yourself in case of slide issues. First, figure out what kind of slide (cable, Schwintek, etc.). Find out how to override and operate the slide manually in the event of a motor failure. Usually you can use a drill with a socket attachment (and bring those tools with you). Find out where the slide controller is because they often have a reset button that you may need to use. Find the specific instructions for your slide controller and read it. Many state that you should keep the slide open / shut button for a few seconds AFTER the slide is fully extended / retracted because it helps to keep the slide mechanism calibrated.

I have a motorhome now, but if I had my old truck / travel trailer, I would get a cap for the truck bed so that I could store the bikes inside the cap. Fully protected that way. It would require removing the front wheels. You could even get fancy and install them on a flat sliding surface so that you could install bikes stagged (facing front, facing rear, facing front, facing rear). You can fit more bikes that way.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

MTB_Underdog said:


> So the Airstream that was linked above sold before I got a chance to have someone look at it. Walked away from Camping World, wife was just really turned off by their sales tactics. Went to an independent dealer an hour north of us and found a trailer we really like. Turns out once my wife was in a trailer with a slide I was overruled and we had to have one. Looking at a 30" Keystone Springdale 280BH. Has double bunk beds for the kids, front queen for the grownups, u-shaped dinette and a couch. Outside kitchen, hose port for washing bikes, and an outside shower for when we get muddy. Has a HUGE (in rv terms) pantry, big enough it has hookups for a washer/ dryer. Not planning to use it for anything but storage but the space is nice.
> 
> How does everyone haul bikes while towing? I have a Velocirax 5X on my truck and my wife has a Thule T2 Classic for when they ride without me. Thought about a front hitch but decided didn't like the bikes out front. Afraid the Velocirax will be too heavy for the rear bumper of the trailer. Leaning toward starting with the tailgate pad I have in the basement and eventually upgrading to a Yakima Bedrock rack with trays over the bed of my truck. Thoughts?








Futura GP bike racks - Cars, RV, travel trailers and fifth wheels


The Futura GP bike racks adapts to all vehicles, especially travel trailers, and can carry all types of 2 wheels bikes.




www.futuragp.com


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## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

I don't hit the age requirement here, but we use a Swagman tension bar fork mount rack in the truck bed. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mlx john said:


> Futura GP bike racks - Cars, RV, travel trailers and fifth wheels
> 
> 
> The Futura GP bike racks adapts to all vehicles, especially travel trailers, and can carry all types of 2 wheels bikes.
> ...


yeah, those work well if the tongue arrangement on your trailer works with how the rack attaches to it.

Some trailers have storage boxes up there that block access to the frame for mounting points. 

Also with any of the between-trailer-and-tv-racks (there are a few variations on this idea out there) it's worth considering the length of the tongue and whether mounting bikes up there would interfere with potential articulation when you'd like to turn. I once used a double receiver so I could bring along a hitch rack for bike transport to various trailheads after camp was set, and even when folded up, the hitch rack (a Kuat NV) did limit articulation a bit. Thankfully it wasn't a severe amount and I was able to complete my trip with only making the barest contact (and not bending anything when it happened) just one time at a gas station.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

mlx john said:


> Futura GP bike racks - Cars, RV, travel trailers and fifth wheels
> 
> 
> The Futura GP bike racks adapts to all vehicles, especially travel trailers, and can carry all types of 2 wheels bikes.
> ...


Something like that would be great but we are bringing 5 bikes when we travel. Bed of the truck is doable, just start running out of room for stuff like generator and fuel if we don't have hookups. Wife is really sensitive to gas smell and I don't want to put that stuff in the TT if I can avoid it.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Turns out once my wife was in a trailer with a slide I was overruled and we had to have one.


Been there. Gotta pick the hill you want to die on!  


MTB_Underdog said:


> ...just start running out of room for stuff like generator and fuel...


Simple. Just buy one of the new pickup trucks with a built-in generator.

Happy to help you spend your money!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Something like that would be great but we are bringing 5 bikes when we travel. Bed of the truck is doable, just start running out of room for stuff like generator and fuel if we don't have hookups. Wife is really sensitive to gas smell and I don't want to put that stuff in the TT if I can avoid it.


I want one of those racks for my trailer.

Right now I have a bumper mounted receiver and put 1 or 2 bikes on a rack back there, but never 4 bikes fully loaded. I have a dinette slide out and put down a old sheet and lay my more valuable bikes there. I tow with a suburban so not much room for anything inside.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Any recommendations for insurance companies for the travel trailer? Waiting on a quote from the agent we have our home/auto with, but open to ideas if anyone has anything to suggest. TIA!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

We use travelers for our home amd auto insurance, they also cover our trailer.

Oddly enough they dont do motorcycles so I insure my motos via progressive.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Any recommendations for insurance companies for the travel trailer? Waiting on a quote from the agent we have our home/auto with, but open to ideas if anyone has anything to suggest. TIA!


Varies wildly from state to state so you might want to mention which you're in to get useful advice. I'm in Michigan and just added my trailer to my car insurance. It doesn't cost me much, around $100-130 annually as I recall. I'm with citizens insurance, fwiw.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Any recommendations for insurance companies for the travel trailer? Waiting on a quote from the agent we have our home/auto with, but open to ideas if anyone has anything to suggest. TIA!


buy a teardrop and insure it as a utility trailer


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

SteveF said:


> Varies wildly from state to state so you might want to mention which you're in to get useful advice. I'm in Michigan and just added my trailer to my car insurance. It doesn't cost me much, around $100-130 annually as I recall. I'm with citizens insurance, fwiw.


Wow, had no idea it could be that cheap. Here's hoping it's similar in NC!



Harold said:


> buy a teardrop and insure it as a utility trailer


Hard to fit beds for 5 and a shower in a teardrop!


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I'm in CA and insuring mine costs about $250/yr.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Hard to fit beds for 5 and a shower in a teardrop!


Not so hard to work out the sleeping arrangements for 5 (you just need a rooftop tent). But it can't have an indoor shower and still be insured as a utility trailer. ;-) Can do an outdoor shower, though. Even with hot water.

I was half joking, anyway.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Harold said:


> Not so hard to work out the sleeping arrangements for 5 (you just need a rooftop tent). But it can't have an indoor shower and still be insured as a utility trailer. ;-) Can do an outdoor shower, though. Even with hot water.
> 
> I was half joking, anyway.


If you could see the eye roll that got me you'd laugh!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> If you could see the eye roll that got me you'd laugh!


Don't laugh too hard. I know of people actually using such an arrangement. A bit too crowded for me, also. But it's possible.


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

The Chevy Tahoe has a 2500 class ladder truck frame and rear leaf springs so not different from a pickup truck in terms of towing. The only deficiency was the braking which did not compare to a diesel pickup with an exhaust brake. But then the cost of ownership with the diesel pickup as double that of any gas SUV or gas pickup.

In terms of larger gas tanks they can be special ordered with Ford and Ram but not with GM/Chevy trucks. Toyota Tundera trucks have come with a large gas tank as standard. The advantage of diesel is being able to go 20% or more miles on a tank of fuel and so fewer pit stops and more options as to where to stop for fuel (although partly offset by fewer places availabe that sell diesel). 

In the past the Ford turbo powered V-6 engines have had serious problems with suddenly shutting down while towing and leaving their owners stuck by the side of the road. Most likely it is from overheating of the turbo lubricant and the shut down is to protect the bearings. If I was going to buy a Ford it would only be with the V-8 engine. 

Separate issue with pickups is that the factory standard gears are very tall, in the 3.27 range and this is to make their fleet mpg numbers as good as possible. For towing I want 3.73 or lower gears with a gas engine to allow the engine to stay within its peak torque band as much as possible. With a diesel engine the max torque is at roughly half the rpms of a gas engine and so this is not a concern.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Calsun said:


> The Chevy Tahoe has a 2500 class ladder truck frame and rear leaf springs so not different from a pickup truck in terms of towing. The only deficiency was the braking which did not compare to a diesel pickup with an exhaust brake. But then the cost of ownership with the diesel pickup as double that of any gas SUV or gas pickup.
> 
> In terms of larger gas tanks they can be special ordered with Ford and Ram but not with GM/Chevy trucks. Toyota Tundera trucks have come with a large gas tank as standard. The advantage of diesel is being able to go 20% or more miles on a tank of fuel and so fewer pit stops and more options as to where to stop for fuel (although partly offset by fewer places availabe that sell diesel).
> 
> ...


The biggest issue with the Tahoe would be the trans, my 2500 gasser has a much heavier duty unit than the 1/2 tons. The spring rate on the Tahoe is also significantly softer than on a 2500. The trailer it looks like we are going to wind up with it 7k empty, not sure I'd want to pull it at close to 10k loaded up with a 1/2 ton (even if is within manufacturer recs). As you also noted my truck has a 36 gallon tank and 4.10 gears, and the longer wheelbase will make it a fair amount more stable than a Tahoe.


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

I choose to keep my tow load at less than 70% of the tow rating by the manufacturer for anything that I am going to tow on a regular basis or where I will be towing in the mountains. Never mentioned is handling and stopping distances with a trailer in tow and how effective trailer brakes tend to be, or not be as the case. 

With my 2500 diesel pickup the factory payload capacity was 2800 lbs but I added a double leaf set of SuperSprings and increase the payload capacity to more than 4,000 lbs for the truck. With a 3700 lb slide in camper in the bed of the truck there was no sag and the bed was level. With adequate load support there was far less sway and the shocks were much more effective. The SuperSprings cost me $445 and took less than 1 hour to install. 

With so many pickups being built for smoother rides the manufacturers are using coil springs at the rear wheels and so improving payload capacity is not practical. The air suspensions add $4,000 to the price of the truck and when they fail the repair costs are very high.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

MTB_Underdog said:


> The biggest issue with the Tahoe would be the trans, my 2500 gasser has a much heavier duty unit than the 1/2 tons. The spring rate on the Tahoe is also significantly softer than on a 2500. The trailer it looks like we are going to wind up with it 7k empty, not sure I'd want to pull it at close to 10k loaded up with a 1/2 ton (even if is within manufacturer recs). As you also noted my truck has a 36 gallon tank and 4.10 gears, and the longer wheelbase will make it a fair amount more stable than a Tahoe.


You can get a 2500 Suburban, they dont currently make new ones, but there are some as new as 2009 I believe. Modern ones have the 6.0 gasser, 3/4 tons from the 1990s had the option of the 454 gas or the 6.0 and 6.2. Diesel.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Calsun said:


> I choose to keep my tow load at less than 70% of the tow rating by the manufacturer for anything that I am going to tow on a regular basis or where I will be towing in the mountains. Never mentioned is handling and stopping distances with a trailer in tow and how effective trailer brakes tend to be, or not be as the case.
> 
> With my 2500 diesel pickup the factory payload capacity was 2800 lbs but I added a double leaf set of SuperSprings and increase the payload capacity to more than 4,000 lbs for the truck. With a 3700 lb slide in camper in the bed of the truck there was no sag and the bed was level. With adequate load support there was far less sway and the shocks were much more effective. The SuperSprings cost me $445 and took less than 1 hour to install.
> 
> With so many pickups being built for smoother rides the manufacturers are using coil springs at the rear wheels and so improving payload capacity is not practical. The air suspensions add $4,000 to the price of the truck and when they fail the repair costs are very high.


I did a single add a leaf to my 2007 silverado 1500. Cost me $70. I paid for a mechanic to install them because I have small kids and it is hard to find time for projects like that. I dont know what the payload increase is, but it is better than stock now am8d it gave me a 2 inch lift in the rear so with the leveling kit up front I got 1 inches all around with factory running gear. A little more bouncy on the freeway with no load, but I dont care about it.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Although add a leafs do help with squat, I’m pretty sure they don’t legally increase your payload. If you’re over stock payload and you get in an accident you’re still SOL for being overweight whether you have an AAL or not 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

socalrider77 said:


> Although add a leafs do help with squat, I’m pretty sure they don’t legally increase your payload. If you’re over stock payload and you get in an accident you’re still SOL for being overweight whether you have an AAL or not
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hmmm, interesting. 

I dont plan to overload the truck so that wont be an issue for me.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

socalrider77 said:


> Although add a leafs do help with squat, I’m pretty sure they don’t legally increase your payload. If you’re over stock payload and you get in an accident you’re still SOL for being overweight whether you have an AAL or not
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yeah, that's my understanding. They don't increase payload, but they might help keep the truck more level when loaded.


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## Offspring (Jan 29, 2006)

I tow with a '01 excursion 7.3. The OEM spring package in it is a complete joke, they were trying to get a car ride but kept the 10k spec. I put f250 springs all around and it was night and day better. Got rid of the air bags; which are just a crutch meant to get headlights pointed back down. With single rear tires it can be real easy to be too heavy on the rear axle, especially if you have about 1k on the ball. Check your tire weight specs. What worked for me to get a clear picture of where i stood and where I needed to make changes was to weight each axle of both vehicles when loaded for travel. This is hard to do unless you are actually traveling with real world weights. We like to travel to OR, and in Oregon they leave the scales activated 24/7. I always stopped on off-interstate facilities to get actual weights, for free, at your leisure. I used these weights to properly set my weight distribution hitch. The dealer set-up was way off, they purposefully set the tongue too low to keep everything in line. I raised the set-up up the shank and it took a bunch of weight off the ball and put it back where it belonged, on both axles, while still maintaining proper tongue weight. It took a while, but I got it perfect and have pulled all over the west. Good luck!


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

So how far out do most people make reservations for popular campsites? A big part of the reason we are getting the TT is so we can spend time in the mountains riding and visiting family. Started looking at the park service website and it seems like availability over the summer is 0 at this point, already booked solid at Powhatan and Davidson. Winter/spring has openings and I'm sure I'll find other campgrounds as I dig in, was just surprised to see everything sold out already.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

MTB_Underdog said:


> So how far out do most people make reservations for popular campsites? A big part of the reason we are getting the TT is so we can spend time in the mountains riding and visiting family. Started looking at the park service website and it seems like availability over the summer is 0 at this point, already booked solid at Powhatan and Davidson. Winter/spring has openings and I'm sure I'll find other campgrounds as I dig in, was just surprised to see everything sold out already.


Popular ones here in CA 6 months in advance on the dot, with multiple computers trying


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

MTB_Underdog said:


> So how far out do most people make reservations for popular campsites? A big part of the reason we are getting the TT is so we can spend time in the mountains riding and visiting family. Started looking at the park service website and it seems like availability over the summer is 0 at this point, already booked solid at Powhatan and Davidson. Winter/spring has openings and I'm sure I'll find other campgrounds as I dig in, was just surprised to see everything sold out already.


6 months for most of them is when reservations open for spots. But you can find spots easier in private campgrounds. KOA's tend to have more spots open, but they are also more expensive.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

chuckha62 said:


> I'm in CA and insuring mine costs about $250/yr.


I just sold my 1997 Prowler and removed it from my insurance. this is how the Premium changed:









Sooooo it was costing me $6 every 6 months? I am not sure if that is totally accurate, but maybe it was? I think we only had collision on it. My new trailer is a 2016 and I opted for better coverage when I added that one on.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> So how far out do most people make reservations for popular campsites? A big part of the reason we are getting the TT is so we can spend time in the mountains riding and visiting family. Started looking at the park service website and it seems like availability over the summer is 0 at this point, already booked solid at Powhatan and Davidson. Winter/spring has openings and I'm sure I'll find other campgrounds as I dig in, was just surprised to see everything sold out already.


Pisgah sites are hardcore. For desirable times of year, you gotta be submitting your reservation the second it goes live.

I was trying to get one of the Pisgah group camps for next summer and kept striking out. I tried for months. So I said f*ck it and took an open date during a less busy time of year (first weekend of March).

On short notice, I've been going after Hipcamp (and other similar types of places) sites. Gotta be flexible about location, though.

I can boondock with my teardrop (one of the major reasons I went that route), but the boondock sites in Pisgah tend to fill up fast, too. Especially the ones that can fit a camper.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Harold said:


> Pisgah sites are hardcore. For desirable times of year, you gotta be submitting your reservation the second it goes live.
> 
> I was trying to get one of the Pisgah group camps for next summer and kept striking out. I tried for months. So I said f*ck it and took an open date during a less busy time of year (first weekend of March).
> 
> ...


Had not heard of Hipcamp, looks like a great resource. Thanks!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Had not heard of Hipcamp, looks like a great resource. Thanks!


Also consider TheDyrt. And for that matter, AirBNB has campsites as a sortable lodging type, too. The bigger your RV, the more challenging these become, but there are some real gems among private campsite providers. I found a Hipcamp listing last year just north of Knoxville that was a real winner. Not terribly close to mountain biking, but excellent facilities. So long as you could boondock, there were a couple spots you could fit a larger RV. And the provider had a building that had clean bathrooms and even a kitchen.

Some of them are real stinkers, though. Think backpacking, but legit in someone's backyard in a subdivision. And they even provide you with a walmart tent.

The more traditional private campgrounds have also been putting listings up on these sites lately. The one thing that's really helpful about this is the accessibility of reviews of these places. There have been a couple over the years that I've stayed a LONG way away from because of some terrifying reviews on google and whatnot. But I've had to specifically hunt these reviews down, and I'm glad I did. One place near Sedona, I read about the owners being so unstable that they would threaten guests who asked for the TP to be refilled in the bathrooms.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Is there a boondock version of hipcamp? 
Also how about one that just shows all public (state, federal) sites & if they're open and stuff? 

I'm going to be driving from Portland OR to Asheville NC and will be sleeping in my van along the way. In the past I have simply used an Atlas to shoot for campgrounds along my route. For a multitude of reasons this is only successful a percentage of the time. Obviously everything is digital now and I'm a bit of a Luddite. What apps or websites would be advantageous to this? 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

WHALENARD said:


> Is there a boondock version of hipcamp?
> Also how about one that just shows all public (state, federal) sites & if they're open and stuff?
> 
> I'm going to be driving from Portland OR to Asheville NC and will be sleeping in my van along the way. In the past I have simply used an Atlas to shoot for campgrounds along my route. For a multitude of reasons this is only successful a percentage of the time. Obviously everything is digital now and I'm a bit of a Luddite. What apps or websites would be advantageous to this?
> ...


lots of hipcamp sites _are_ boondocking because it takes a lot of money that most operators don't have to install electric and whatnot.

you basically just have to filter for the type of site you're looking for. whether you just want space for a tent, or you need to park a van, or if you have a trailer of whatever size, etc.

then there's this site (and others similar to it).

Free Camping Near You | Go Camping for Free! (freecampsites.net)

they simply cannot show whether the sites are available or not, because free sites are typically first-come-first-served and nobody keeps track of occupancy.

here's a list of apps:

9 Camping Apps You Should Download Before Your Next Trip (thedyrt.com)


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^Perfect, thank you. 

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## dktxracer (Oct 30, 2019)

MTB_Underdog said:


> So how far out do most people make reservations for popular campsites? A big part of the reason we are getting the TT is so we can spend time in the mountains riding and visiting family. Started looking at the park service website and it seems like availability over the summer is 0 at this point...


It's possible that the dates you want can't be reserved yet. For the state parks we visit, those systems only allow reservations 6 months in advance.

Either way, make your reservations as soon as you can. RV'ing is crazy popular now, and state and national parks are by far the cheapest places to camp so they fill up quickly. 

I just made my reservations for a Colorado trip next June. I was able to book everything I wanted, but even some of the private RV parks only had a few sites left.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dktxracer said:


> It's possible that the dates you want can't be reserved yet. For the state parks we visit, those systems only allow reservations 6 months in advance.
> 
> Either way, make your reservations as soon as you can. RV'ing is crazy popular now, and state and national parks are by far the cheapest places to camp so they fill up quickly.
> 
> I just made my reservations for a Colorado trip next June. I was able to book everything I wanted, but even some of the private RV parks only had a few sites left.


Pisgah is difficult because for as much traffic as it gets, there are extremely limited numbers of public campsites, and the Brevard area has more than some other parts of the forest.

The place is absolutely lousy with AirBNBs and other vacation rental type places. 

So it tends to be extra difficult to grab camping here.

I miss when I was growing up and my family could basically pack up and drive to our favorite campground an hour from home and pretty much be guaranteed a campsite anytime except a major summer holiday weekend like memorial day, the 4th, or labor day. those weekends we'd have to plan more than a day or two in advance and make reservations over the phone.


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## Offspring (Jan 29, 2006)

Most counties ( CA anyway) have their own campgrounds with separate reservation systems.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Offspring said:


> Most counties ( CA anyway) have their own campgrounds with separate reservation systems.


def not in the east. lots of places where there's not a single campground of any sort (public OR private) in the entire county. and plenty of places where the only "campgrounds" are the sorts of places where they pack big RVs in like sardines and it's either not possible to find tent sites or they're not enjoyable because of the tight quarters.

I'm hoping the new state park that's getting acquired near me (state put a bunch of money in the budget for next year to buy the land) will get a campground. the land had one many years ago that the landowners closed (to focus on their bed-and-breakfast lodgings), so the facilities are probably there and just need touched up. the area certainly needs public campgrounds, though I doubt it'll relieve any demand - it's more likely to be just as booked up because of unfulfilled demand.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Harold said:


> I miss when I was growing up and my family could basically pack up and drive to our favorite campground an hour from home and pretty much be guaranteed a campsite anytime except a major summer holiday weekend like memorial day, the 4th, or labor day. those weekends we'd have to plan more than a day or two in advance and make reservations over the phone.


Just visited Brevard for the firsts time in a long time, holy CRAP has it blown up. I could not believe how much things have changed. Went to Brevard College in the early 90's and it was just a sleepy little town that rolled up the sidewalks at night. 

Was at Kanuga a few months ago and ran into a kid with Brevard College kit, said he rode for the school team. TEAM?!?! When I was there I had the only MTB on campus. Took a mountain biking PE class and a whopping 6 people signed up, and the instructor was the only one besides me that had their own bike. There was one roadie that rode the Parkway all the time and that was it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Just visited Brevard for the firsts time in a long time, holy CRAP has it blown up. I could not believe how much things have changed. Went to Brevard College in the early 90's and it was just a sleepy little town that rolled up the sidewalks at night.
> 
> Was at Kanuga a few months ago and ran into a kid with Brevard College kit, said he rode for the school team. TEAM?!?! When I was there I had the only MTB on campus. Took a mountain biking PE class and a whopping 6 people signed up, and the instructor was the only one besides me that had their own bike. There was one roadie that rode the Parkway all the time and that was it.


My first visit to the area was 2003 and it's changed a lot since then, too.

But the comment of mine you quoted references a different part of the country. It's more of a commentary on how camping has exploded in popularity (especially with an RV) since the pandemic began.

But yeah, my first visit in 2003, my dad and I drove down from Indiana. We got a site at Tsali for a couple days and then we got one of the free roadside sites on Avery Creek Rd. with zero planning for either. In late May. You can't do that now.


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

I continue to see posts warning about being overloaded per the manufacturer's rating and not having insurance coverage or being cited as a result. This is utter nonsense in the USA. I see overloaded vehicles on the road every single day with the rear sagging and I have never seen a non commercial truck or car pulled over as a result. Many vehicles are sold by dealers that are unsafe to begin with for their use as tow vehicles. 

My diesel pickup was rated to tow over 17,000 lbs but with such a load if there was a problem with the trailer's brakes I would be in serious trouble if I needed to quickly stop for any reason. My Tahoe was rated for towing 7500 lbs but with a 2000 lb trailer load I found myself nearing t-boning a car that stopped in the middle of the freeway in front of me. Fortunately I was driving at 50 mph on this section of the highway and managed to stop with only inches to spare. 

The reason I bought a Tahoe is that it had leaf springs unlike the Ford Expedition that had coil springs. Many complaints by owners of the Expedition SUV's with regard to towing problems. For serious towing one now needs to buy a 2500 class pickup truck. 

For "camping" we now look for locations on BLM that are open for dispersed camping. Many places now are closed to tent camping as when there are no toilets available too many people leave their crap behind when they leave.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Harold said:


> My first visit to the area was 2003 and it's changed a lot since then, too.
> 
> But the comment of mine you quoted references a different part of the country. It's more of a commentary on how camping has exploded in popularity (especially with an RV) since the pandemic began.
> 
> But yeah, my first visit in 2003, my dad and I drove down from Indiana. We got a site at Tsali for a couple days and then we got one of the free roadside sites on Avery Creek Rd. with zero planning for either. In late May. You can't do that now.


Oops, had you confused with another forum member from that area. Sorry 'bout that.  

Kind of like bikes I think RV inventory is starting to catch up, will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years. Will people keep camping or do they start selling off RV's once they are willing/able to travel normally again. Strange times...


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Calsun said:


> Many vehicles are sold by dealers that are unsafe to begin with for their use as tow vehicles.


Generally agree with your posts on tow rating -- I'm a two thirds of the rating guy myself -- but not sure on this.

I've got two friends who purchased RVs and when they arrived to actually take possession were told that 1) you can't tow this with that SUV and 2) we can't put this camper into that truck.

Maybe responsible outlier dealerships?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

kosmo said:


> Generally agree with your posts on tow rating -- I'm a two thirds of the rating guy myself -- but not sure on this.
> 
> I've got two friends who purchased RVs and when they arrived to actually take possession were told that 1) you can't tow this with that SUV and 2) we can't put this camper into that truck.
> 
> Maybe responsible outlier dealerships?


totally varies.

I went to a Camping World dealer in summer of 2020 to kick some tires and see what was out there. Found a trailer that caught my attention, and my wife was ready to buy it on the spot. We had no arrangements for storage or any of that, so I wanted to take my time.

The dry weight was around 50% of the capacity for my truck, which was good. But it was _extremely_ tall. I was reading through the manual on my pickup truck and found the statement about frontal area. That sent me down a massive rabbit hole on the topic, and of course, the RV manufacturer said absolutely nothing about it. The dealer wanted to sell that camper and brushed off concerns about the frontal area because it had a "smooth, aerodynamic shape" but I couldn't find anything about the shape functionally reducing the frontal area. Information on this critical data point is terrible from the RV manufacturers.

My truck could pull it no problem, I'm sure. But only short distances at slower speeds where aerodynamics matters less. But that's not how I like to use a camper. My wife and went into this world because we like to go farther afield, so longer drives on the freeway were going to be part of the equation. My tow vehicle would have struggled with that camper in that kind of scenario because of the aerodynamics of it.



MTB_Underdog said:


> Kind of like bikes I think RV inventory is starting to catch up, will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years. Will people keep camping or do they start selling off RV's once they are willing/able to travel normally again. Strange times...


I'm already seeing at least a little bit of this on the local FB marketplace. Lots of old aluminum-clad campers from the 60's and 70's (and some older). Most of them look like they were bought as pandemic remodel projects that were never completed, so they're in some stage of semi-gutted. But quite a few were projects that actually got completed and they were used a few times. Most are too big for what I would want to pull, of course (more than a few triple axle Airstream Land Yachts and stuff). But I think that a lot of folks have realized one or more of a few things.

They aren't using them as much as they thought they would.
Campsites are too much of a PITA to get.
Maintenance is more work than they expected.
Storage is not what they expected - either it takes up too much space/looks tacky/whatever at home or storing at a storage facility is too expensive and inconvenient.

I know for me, storing at a storage facility is a strong deterrent of getting something bigger. I'm not outright prohibited from storing one at home, but there are definitely a lot of restrictions on doing so (from the HOA) that make it prohibitive. The ability to fit a camper in my garage is really important to me right now.

I do hope that it means demand for camping drops some. But I also hope that we get some projects to relieve some of the pent-up demand. Expand some existing campgrounds, build new ones, public, private, whatever.


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## BillyBicycle (Jul 4, 2016)

Solis 59PX (no pop top) on a promaster 3500 159" extended wheelbase. Fits in our garage (had the door header raised from 8' to 10') so no HOA problems. We use it daily for even local MTB. A place to get warm fat biking, a place to change clothes etc after sweaty summer rides. We were in TN and it got dark fast and we were tired. We slept in the parking lot no problems. Great for boondocking. Free parking is the best ! Most important for Mrs BC-Bike, a toilet and shower.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Kind of like bikes I think RV inventory is starting to catch up, will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years. Will people keep camping or do they start selling off RV's once they are willing/able to travel normally again. Strange times...


I can speak to my own experience. 

We bought our 1997 Fleetwood Prowler 23LS (23 foot box, 26 foot hitch to bumper) in June 2019 for $5,500.

Normal maintenance, replaced the batteries and tires, etc.

Bought our new Trailer 3 months ago and put the Fleetwood up for sale. I started really high because that is what the market looked like, people were asking over $5k for absolute junk that needed full restoration. We had a place to keep it at a friends house so we did not entertain any low offers.

Started at $10,500, dropped the Price to $9,500 and then to $8,500.

From the start I was going to be happy getting anything near what we paid for it, but my wife really thought we would get a lot more. 

Then our Friends bought a new RV and needed their spot back.

I finally got an interested Buyer who offered me $6,000 and I sold it last week to her.

I don't know what this means, but I still see tons of RV's for sale right now and all listed pretty high.

In a normal depreciation world I think I might have only been able to sell the trailer for $5k max, probably less. But getting six for it meant we did not have to pay storage fees while trying to sell it, the only local storage place we could find was going to be $250/month, and was only open 8-5 M-F with limited call ahead hours on the weekends.... It would have been a nightmare to try and sell it while stored there.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

So we did end up getting the Springdale 280BH, got it sitting in the driveway now. Inverter has been ordered for the second time, first order got cancelled when the retailer realized prices had jumped. It's listed on their site for $200 more now. Backordered from the second vendor, hopefully the wait isn't too long. Going to add a second battery, hoping that between the 2 batteries, the inverter, and the 200w solar we should be able to get by with minimal generator use when boondocking.

First trip is planned for the 23rd, travelling about 1.5 hours for a local MTB short track series the kids are competing in. We could day trip it but it would mean getting up at 5:30 every Sunday for 5 weeks in a row. Instead we will drive down Saturday afternoon, cook dinner, and get a good nights sleep. Breakfast and lunch before races (girls at 9:00, boy around 2:00) then home for dinner.

March will be the first trip to the mountains, kids and (teacher) wife have a Monday off from school so we are driving to Brevard on Friday March 11th, spending the weekend riding and visiting family, then coming home on the 14th. Can't wait!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

MTB_Underdog said:


> So we did end up getting the Springdale 280BH, got it sitting in the driveway now. Inverter has been ordered for the second time, first order got cancelled when the retailer realized prices had jumped. It's listed on their site for $200 more now. Backordered from the second vendor, hopefully the wait isn't too long. Going to add a second battery, hoping that between the 2 batteries, the inverter, and the 200w solar we should be able to get by with minimal generator use when boondocking.
> 
> First trip is planned for the 23rd, travelling about 1.5 hours for a local MTB short track series the kids are competing in. We could day trip it but it would mean getting up at 5:30 every Sunday for 5 weeks in a row. Instead we will drive down Saturday afternoon, cook dinner, and get a good nights sleep. Breakfast and lunch before races (girls at 9:00, boy around 2:00) then home for dinner.
> 
> March will be the first trip to the mountains, kids and (teacher) wife have a Monday off from school so we are driving to Brevard on Friday March 11th, spending the weekend riding and visiting family, then coming home on the 14th. Can't wait!


Awesome! Take some pics of it all setup in camp! We are doing some beach camping next week, I cant wait!


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

Hard sided popup camping trailers have expanded in number over the years with their increasing popularity. They cut the wind drag for the tow vehicle by at least 50%. Separate but import aspect of SUV's and trucks is that the majority come with high gears to maximize the theoretical mpg for the fed fleet numbers but make it much more difficult to accelerate quickly to safely merge with freeway traffic.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Calsun said:


> *Hard sided popup camping trailers* have expanded in number over the years with their increasing popularity.


Truth. Our RV journey started with a hard-sided, pop-up Chalet (similar to A-Liner) and we loved it. Then we did the bigger and bigger thing, until we kind of aged out of RV-ing, for a bunch of boring reasons.

In retrospect, I really wish we'd just stuck with the Chalet. So easy to pull and set up. Of course, the bigger ones were awesome once we arrived at our destination, but I grew to flat out hate towing them. Seemed like I was always bucking a headwind! 🙃


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

propchef said:


> The wheelbase isn't used as a metric by the manufacturers for towing capacity. The Yukon (and those built like it) have a live rear axle and an overhang over 40%. The X5 is closer to 23%. This makes a HUGE difference in the towing stability. My X5 would handle that Wolf Pup like it wasn't even there, without WD/Sway bars, since the BMW is programmed to have anti-sway built-in to handle trailers up to 3500 lbs. That trailer also lists a 400 lb tongue weight, but it's likely really around 500+ but still not heavy enough to be problematic.
> 
> Everyone uses what they are comfortable with, but the notion that only a huge American-made PU (or SUV) can handle a trailer is simply not true.


I have heard the Porsche Cayenne is a good tower for medium to smaller trailers. Airstream actual uses one in a video to show off the handling of the their trailers.


Shows the Porsche on a slalom course at about 2 min in…





That wolf pup is smaller that what we tow now with our Yukon. I think our 25’, 7k lbs loaded trailer we currently tow would be too much for a mid sized suv like the X5. We also live in snow country so something like the that wouldn’t be a good match as an everyday driver.

Having a proper 4 wheel drive with 4 low and a locking rear diff like the Yukon is also good to have for some camp grounds. It’s also nice for our back driveway


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

That is our trailer on the right. We back up to a small sand hill covered in ice plant. 

The beach is just beyond.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

MTB_Underdog said:


> So we did end up getting the Springdale 280BH, got it sitting in the driveway now. Inverter has been ordered for the second time, first order got cancelled when the retailer realized prices had jumped. It's listed on their site for $200 more now. Backordered from the second vendor, hopefully the wait isn't too long. Going to add a second battery, hoping that between the 2 batteries, the inverter, and the 200w solar we should be able to get by with minimal generator use when boondocking.
> 
> First trip is planned for the 23rd, travelling about 1.5 hours for a local MTB short track series the kids are competing in. We could day trip it but it would mean getting up at 5:30 every Sunday for 5 weeks in a row. Instead we will drive down Saturday afternoon, cook dinner, and get a good nights sleep. Breakfast and lunch before races (girls at 9:00, boy around 2:00) then home for dinner.
> 
> March will be the first trip to the mountains, kids and (teacher) wife have a Monday off from school so we are driving to Brevard on Friday March 11th, spending the weekend riding and visiting family, then coming home on the 14th. Can't wait!


You’re on the right track with 200w solar and an inverter. The key is your battery bank. Just adding another small battery like the one that came with the trailer will help, but not much. You need to upgrade the batteries to those with more AHs. The best bang for the buck is two Trojan 6v wired together to make 12v. It’s money well spent trust me. If money isn’t an issue the you’ll want to go with lithium. With the inverter, my wife can run her hair dryer, coffee pot, microwave , etc. I installed 200w solar on the roof which is good, as long as there’s plenty of sunlight. I also have a 100w suitcase solar panel with 30’ leads that I can set up wherever the sun is shining


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

I added an awning to my Tab 320 last summer. It's pretty slick-made in the U.S. and custom designed to integrate with the trailer. (the companies are related somehow, near each other geographically, and able to coordinate their products.) It's made by AllPro and the trailer side hem has a rope sewn in that slides into a slotted "keder" rail on the trailer. Slide it in, insert support poles, stake it down, good to go! It works well for keeping rain off me and my stuff when I'm going in and out in bad weather, and offers a nicely shaded patio when I want to sit and relax. Some pics of my initial install and use:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SteveF said:


> I added an awning to my Tab 320 last summer. It's pretty slick-made in the U.S. and custom designed to integrate with the trailer. (the companies are related somehow, near each other geographically, and able to coordinate their products. It's made by AllPro and the trailer side hem has a rope sewn in that slides into a "keder" rail on the trailer. Slide it in, stake it down, good to go! It works well for keeping rain off me and my stuff when I'm going in and out in bad weather, and offers a nicely shaded patio when I want to sit and relax. Some pics of my initial install and use:



That's a nice low profile way to mount an awning. Have you used it under windy conditions at all?

I have a Rhino Rack Foxwing awning and the coverage it offers is awesome. But it's not so great in wind. It can handle more wind once set up and staked down than it can during setup/takedown. By a pretty big margin. I've already had to do repairs to it once because a sudden gust took it during setup.

I've been looking pretty hard at the Clam Quick-Set. They're supposed to be very sturdy in the wind, but you definitely pay for them. It's not an awning, but probably sturdier in the wind than any awning.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> That's a nice low profile way to mount an awning. Have you used it under windy conditions at all?
> 
> I have a Rhino Rack Foxwing awning and the coverage it offers is awesome. But it's not so great in wind. It can handle more wind once set up and staked down than it can during setup/takedown. By a pretty big margin. I've already had to do repairs to it once because a sudden gust took it during setup.
> 
> I've been looking pretty hard at the Clam Quick-Set. They're supposed to be very sturdy in the wind, but you definitely pay for them. It's not an awning, but probably sturdier in the wind than any awning.


Wind and awnings do not go together, ever.

If you leave your awning up and it gets windy, have fun getting it back in without damaging it or yourself.

After a few awning expereinces, my next "sun screen" will be a simple sun shade triangle with a couple mounts on the roof ~ 10' apart and a single tie out that can go to a pole/tree.

Cheap and easy.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> Wind and awnings do not go together, ever.
> 
> If you leave your awning up and it gets windy, have fun getting it back in without damaging it or yourself.
> 
> ...


Yep, I’ll second that. I’ve personally witnessed two different occasions where the wind sent an awning up over the roof of RVs. That tears up all kinds of stuff. Even when staked down on the corners it’s a no-go. So to anyone just getting an RV…..NEVER leave your awning out when you’re away from camp, and you should bring it in at night while sleeping.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Wind and awnings do not go together, ever.
> 
> If you leave your awning up and it gets windy, have fun getting it back in without damaging it or yourself.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I attach a tarp similarly to the non-awning side of my trailer. With a teardrop/squaredrop style camper, outdoor space is essential since the indoor space is pretty much just for sleeping and gear storage. The awning is useful, but wind limits that usefulness. With good staking and using the sidewalls, the Foxwing can withstand a good bit once set up. But you're absolutely right about setup/takedown. There have been plenty of occasions where even light winds were just too much for me to set it up, even though once set up, I would have had no problems.

That's why the Clam with wind panels is high on my list. Gives some somewhat protected space to move around during windy weather. And it's designed to be used in those kinds of conditions.


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## mpowers (Mar 9, 2015)

Harold said:


> Pisgah sites are hardcore. For desirable times of year, you gotta be submitting your reservation the second it goes live.
> 
> I was trying to get one of the Pisgah group camps for next summer and kept striking out. I tried for months. So I said f*ck it and took an open date during a less busy time of year (first weekend of March).
> 
> ...


Hell, I’ve got sites booked for this summer 13 months ago when they went live. One of the hard lesson to learn was to plan really far in advance and cancel it if you for some reason can’t make it. Most have minimal or no cancel fees.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mpowers said:


> Hell, I’ve got sites booked for this summer 13 months ago when they went live. One of the hard lesson to learn was to plan really far in advance and cancel it if you for some reason can’t make it. Most have minimal or no cancel fees.


sometimes it's really hard to make plans like that so far in advance. weekend plans, by their nature, tend to be more spur of the moment, when I know both my schedule and my wife's schedules coincide. I don't like asking for time off work for that sort of thing (I work most weekends, my wife does not).

I try to save requested time off for bigger trips and more important stuff. if I'm doing a longer trip with camping, then I'll want to plan out my sites more in advance.

One thing that seems to be a growing problem are people who reserve as many sites as they possibly can and then attempt to resell them for a profit. I keep hearing about cases where people notice this and I never heard of this before 2020.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Harold said:


> That's a nice low profile way to mount an awning. Have you used it under windy conditions at all?


Not that I can recall. I don't use it every time I use the trailer and I'd probably not try if I knew it was going to be windy.


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## mpowers (Mar 9, 2015)

Harold said:


> sometimes it's really hard to make plans like that so far in advance. weekend plans, by their nature, tend to be more spur of the moment, when I know both my schedule and my wife's schedules coincide. I don't like asking for time off work for that sort of thing (I work most weekends, my wife does not).
> 
> I try to save requested time off for bigger trips and more important stuff. if I'm doing a longer trip with camping, then I'll want to plan out my sites more in advance.
> 
> One thing that seems to be a growing problem are people who reserve as many sites as they possibly can and then attempt to resell them for a profit. I keep hearing about cases where people notice this and I never heard of this before 2020.


Yeah, getting away last minute for a weekend is difficult at best to find sites. Especially if you want to be at xx place. 

BLM is one option, if that’s available to you. I was envious of the folks who knew where to park out west. Just show up, set up and enjoy. All mine was planned well in advanced as I did not want that learning curve with a family and trying to enjoy other activities. 

Another is simply constantly check sites as people do cancel. Time consuming but has worked for me. Not something I banked on coming through, but if it worked

I have not ran into people flipping sites. I do rent sites out to people with my camper through Air BnB and RV share. Great way to make a few bucks on a depreciating asset. Again, I picked up the sites well in advance.

My favs are state parks and small private camps. KOA and Thousand trail places are okay, just not my cup of tea. Although I’m not opposed to staying at one if all else fails.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mpowers said:


> Yeah, getting away last minute for a weekend is difficult at best to find sites. Especially if you want to be at xx place.
> 
> BLM is one option, if that’s available to you. I was envious of the folks who knew where to park out west. Just show up, set up and enjoy. All mine was planned well in advanced as I did not want that learning curve with a family and trying to enjoy other activities.
> 
> ...


definitely don't have BLM on the east coast.

It's possible to boondock for free on the nearby USFS land, but sites are EXTREMELY limited due to thick vegetation and steep terrain. It's pretty much regulated such that you can only camp in designated spots. I haven't checked out all the possible sites, but the last one I used almost 20yrs ago is nothing like it was back then. Namely, it and the other ones near it are much less clean/sanitary. People don't keep the sites clean.

Definitely no way I'm going to rent out my trailer when I'm not using it. I don't trust other people with my stuff. I know people who do this and it doesn't take long before they get burned, even using the established services like you mentioned. The potential to make money is there, I get it. But the only way I'd consider doing it would be for a camper that I had no intent to actually use myself.

The only times I've ever used a KOA have been times when I've been travelling and I want a clean bathroom when I get up in the morning. The ones I've used have not been the sorts of places I'd want to actually spend a weekend. Way too densely packed.

I've looked at smaller private campgrounds for a few trips but have been scared away by terrifying reviews about the owners. One place near Sedona I looked at had many reports of the owners threatening guests for things like letting them know the TP was empty in the bathroom. With a teardrop, I am somewhat limited when it comes to the private places. Many private places are specifically built for larger self-contained RVs and have explicit rules about being inside your camper during certain hours, rules related to cooking outside, and so on. All things that are very burdensome for anyone using a teardrop style trailer.

Sometimes I think about larger-but-still-small campers, but none of those will fit in my garage and storage becomes burdensome. But at that point I also lose out on the ability to use the very compact boondock sites in my area and I have to rely more heavily on developed campgrounds and insane reservation systems.

The ability to boondock and pull into very small spots does give me lots of options on Hipcamp and such where I'm mostly just competing for sites with people who have tents or rooftop tents or whatever, not bigger RVs and campers. For shorter notice campsites, hipcamp has become my go-to. Locations are often less desirable, though, but that's the climate we're in right now, it seems.

I'm hoping to improve my ability to boondock this year. I want to upgrade my solar capacity. Right now I just have a small portable panel. I want to get one (or two) rooftop panels with a lot more capacity than my current little portable. Renogy has nice mounts that allow you to remove the panels and move them around for optimal sun exposure and I think that's how I'd like to handle it. I also want to get bigger wheels and tires for better clearance and handling on gravel roads and parking on undeveloped fields and such (common for the Hipcamp sites I use) and also move my spare tire from an undermount to a tongue mount (improves departure angle, weights the tongue more for generally improved towing). And maybe if I have enough money left over, get a heater. I like the idea of the suitcase diesel heaters that I could attach as needed, but I'm not excited about diesel fumes. I could potentially do similar with a propex propane heater, since I already tote around a propane tank, but I'd have to figure out how to handle the power and the thermostat control for it.

I do have that big group campsite reserved for early March, but unfortunately it seems like the people I've invited have lost interest. I'm going to need to start working to drum up interest again. I need to check up on the status of some of the construction work in that area...there was a new bridge getting built to replace a stream ford, and then in August that location got hit with some massive flooding from over a foot of rain in less than a day.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Anybody recommend some bed foam and where to get it?

Going to go ahead and build a permanent bed in my van for 6 months. I'll be driving across the country here in about 2-3 weeks and would like to have that part done for the trip. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

WHALENARD said:


> Anybody recommend some bed foam and where to get it?
> 
> Going to go ahead and build a permanent bed in my van for 6 months. I'll be driving across the country here in about 2-3 weeks and would like to have that part done for the trip.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


I bought a Milliard memory foam mattress on Amazon. Can get different thicknesses, sizes, folding or not. Lots of options.

Mine is a queen, 6" thick tri-fold

Milliard Bedding | The Ultimate Sleep Experience


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Harold said:


> I bought a Milliard memory foam mattress on Amazon. Can get different thicknesses, sizes, folding or not. Lots of options.
> 
> Mine is a queen, 6" thick tri-fold
> 
> Milliard Bedding | The Ultimate Sleep Experience


Thanks.
Safe to assume you're happy with it then? 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

WHALENARD said:


> Thanks.
> Safe to assume you're happy with it then?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


I'm happy with it. I don't think I'd want one thinner than 6" in all honesty.

will you be putting your mattress on a solid base, or something ventilated with slats? if a solid base, you might want to consider some ventilation underneath to help prevent mold growth from condensation.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Harold said:


> I'm happy with it. I don't think I'd want one thinner than 6" in all honesty.
> 
> will you be putting your mattress on a solid base, or something ventilated with slats? if a solid base, you might want to consider some ventilation underneath to help prevent mold growth from condensation.


Solid. Haven't considered the mold growth angle. I reckon slotted wouldn't be too terrible difficult to build though. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

WHALENARD said:


> Solid. Haven't considered the mold growth angle. I reckon slotted wouldn't be too terrible difficult to build though.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


You can just lay down some slats on top of the solid base to give a little ventilation. There are also ventilation layers you can buy, but those things can be more expensive than the mattress.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Ha, don't know where the "solid" came from.
Thanks for the tips, Harold, appreciate it. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

try pricing this stuff out sometime.

HyperVent Fights Condensation (hyperventonline.com)


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

All right, got a question for you experienced RV'ers. We (family of 5) have a 52 gallon water fresh tank (60 grey, 39 black). Planning to use bottled water for drinking and cooking, just need the fresh tank for shower, brushing teeth, and Navy showers. What are the odds we can make it from a Friday check in to a Monday check out without having to dump and refill fresh? Our first trip to the mountains has power but no water or sewer in the campsites. The good news is they have a dump station and fresh water fill so if we need it we have options, but clearly hooking up the truck and moving in the middle of the weekend is suboptimal.

I feel like we should be able to make it work but I'm just guessing and would love some opinions. TIA!


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

MTB_Underdog said:


> All right, got a question for you experienced RV'ers. We (family of 5) have a 52 gallon water fresh tank (60 grey, 39 black). Planning to use bottled water for drinking and cooking, just need the fresh tank for shower, brushing teeth, and Navy showers. What are the odds we can make it from a Friday check in to a Monday check out without having to dump and refill fresh? Our first trip to the mountains has power but no water or sewer in the campsites. The good news is they have a dump station and fresh water fill so if we need it we have options, but clearly hooking up the truck and moving in the middle of the weekend is suboptimal.
> 
> I feel like we should be able to make it work but I'm just guessing and would love some opinions. TIA!


That’s do-able. Only use the shower to soap up then rinse. You can drain your grey water at night with a separate hose out into the grass away from camp with a black tank cap that has a hose bib built on like this….










Just make damn sure not to open the black valve. Your black tank should hold for the wknd, especially if there is a public restroom nearby that you can use some of the time


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Sir kayakalot said:


> That’s do-able. Only use the shower to soap up then rinse. You can drain your grey water at night with a separate hose out into the grass away from camp with a black tank cap that has a hose bib built on like this….
> 
> View attachment 1964904
> 
> ...


I agree with sir k. I literally got home today from a trip that started monday. I still have water in my fresh tank. Skip as many days as possible between showers, and if there is a water spicket at the campsite use that to rinse dishes if possible, or just partially fill a sink with soapy water for the washing and do a quick rinse all at once at the end. I find dishes can be the most wasteful. We also have a 50 gallon fresh. Our trailer only has 30 black and 30 grey, but we never come close to filling them.
Luckily we were at a state campground that had paid showers, so I used that for the one shower I took while camping, just finished a much better shower this evening. We used the RV shower to clean sand and grime off the kids every few days, so it was used.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

If there is water available at the campground you can fill up as needed with a small folding two wheel dolly and a water jug like this. The nipple fits perfectly into the fresh water fill on your RV so very little is spilled. This is a mandatory setup for me when camping in forest service campgrounds where there are no hookups but water spigots are spread out through the area.


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## Offspring (Jan 29, 2006)

Also use the restrooms on site as much as possible. Flushes with 5 will use a lot of water. Given the circumstances of this trip, perhaps use disposable plates, cup and utensils to cut down on dishwashing.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Sir kayakalot said:


> If there is water available at the campground you can fill up as needed with a small folding two wheel dolly and a water jug like this. The nipple fits perfectly into the fresh water fill on your RV so very little is spilled. This is a mandatory setup for me when camping in forest service campgrounds where there are no hookups but water spigots are spread out through the area.
> View attachment 1964906
> 
> 
> View attachment 1964907


I have thought about something like this for that very reason. My buddies 5th wheel has a small 30 gallon tank, which is horrible for dry camping. We tried to rig up a rubber boot with hose clamps onto the water spigot, but it was very awkward, we got a few gallons into the tank to help them last a few more days.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> I have thought about something like this for that very reason. My buddies 5th wheel has a small 30 gallon tank, which is horrible for dry camping. We tried to rig up a rubber boot with hose clamps onto the water spigot, but it was very awkward, we got a few gallons into the tank to help them last a few more days.


Yep, been there, done that. The water jug I posted is the best way I have found to refill without spill, plus it’s about the cheapest one too. Win win. My RV only has a 30 gallon fresh water tank, so I can relate


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

For years I used a 2" thick piece of high density foam that was wrapped in thick naugahyde by the foam shop. It was more than enough for sleeping and when I retired the truck from camping duty the pad was much loved by my two sheepdogs where is kept them off the concrete floor. 

My wife and I used a slide-in camper for years and we never had a problem with its 30 gallon freshwater tank. More than enough water for cooking, toilet, and a navy shower. But then I was used to doing sailboat deliveries and being out at sea for a couple weeks or more and we carried one gallon per person per planned day. Now there are many more options with desalinators and generators but I still conserve water, even at home, and don't let the water run when shaving or brushing my teeth.


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## Offspring (Jan 29, 2006)

Calsun said:


> I still conserve water, even at home, and don't let the water run when shaving or brushing my teeth.


Folks on pumps are electicity _and_ water savers by nature, or at least after the first electric bill.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

So I've got a question about our first trip. Going to Rock Hill, SC for the kids to race the winter short track series next weekend. Driving down Saturday and back Sunday. The issue is it's going to be 20 degrees Saturday night. We have full hookups but I'm guessing if we hook up to city water the hose will freeze and we won't have any water by morning. Sound about right?

The bottom of the trailer is enclosed and the furnace ducts run through that area so as long as we run the heat the pipes shouldn't freeze, figure we will fill up the water tank and use that and shore power. Also have an electric fireplace that can provide heat so staying warm shouldn't be a problem.

Anything else I'm not thinking of with regard to camping in that kind of cold? New to all this, any advice is appreciated!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> So I've got a question about our first trip. Going to Rock Hill, SC for the kids to race the winter short track series next weekend. Driving down Saturday and back Sunday. The issue is it's going to be 20 degrees Saturday night. We have full hookups but I'm guessing if we hook up to city water the hose will freeze and we won't have any water by morning. Sound about right?
> 
> The bottom of the trailer is enclosed and the furnace ducts run through that area so as long as we run the heat the pipes shouldn't freeze, figure we will fill up the water tank and use that and shore power. Also have an electric fireplace that can provide heat so staying warm shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Anything else I'm not thinking of with regard to camping in that kind of cold? New to all this, any advice is appreciated!



It strikes me that city water + furnace + shore power + electric fireplace might best be described by some term other than "camping".


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> So I've got a question about our first trip. Going to Rock Hill, SC for the kids to race the winter short track series next weekend. Driving down Saturday and back Sunday. The issue is it's going to be 20 degrees Saturday night. We have full hookups but I'm guessing if we hook up to city water the hose will freeze and we won't have any water by morning. Sound about right?
> 
> The bottom of the trailer is enclosed and the furnace ducts run through that area so as long as we run the heat the pipes shouldn't freeze, figure we will fill up the water tank and use that and shore power. Also have an electric fireplace that can provide heat so staying warm shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Anything else I'm not thinking of with regard to camping in that kind of cold? New to all this, any advice is appreciated!


there is a reason that some RVs are winter rated and others are not.

and it's only one reason why I use a teardrop.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

mikesee said:


> It strikes me that city water + furnace + shore power + electric fireplace might best be described by some term other than "camping".


I don't disagree, but a house on wheels is the only way to get momma on weekend mtb trips/race weekends. Happy wife, happy life.

And while a hotel might be cheaper, by the time you add in food for 5 and a kennel for the dog the expenses work out ok.

#mtbfam #yaybikes


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> I don't disagree, but a house on wheels is the only way to get momma on weekend mtb trips/race weekends. Happy wife, happy life.
> 
> And while a hotel might be cheaper, by the time you add in food for 5 and a kennel for the dog the expenses work out ok.
> 
> #mtbfam #yaybikes



Neither criticizing nor judging -- you do you.

Just call it something other than the C word...


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mikesee said:


> Neither criticizing nor judging -- you do you.
> 
> Just call it something other than the C word...


Glamping


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## Rock (Jan 13, 2004)

MTB_Underdog said:


> So I've got a question about our first trip. Going to Rock Hill, SC for the kids to race the winter short track series next weekend. Driving down Saturday and back Sunday. The issue is it's going to be 20 degrees Saturday night. We have full hookups but I'm guessing if we hook up to city water the hose will freeze and we won't have any water by morning. Sound about right?
> 
> The bottom of the trailer is enclosed and the furnace ducts run through that area so as long as we run the heat the pipes shouldn't freeze, figure we will fill up the water tank and use that and shore power. Also have an electric fireplace that can provide heat so staying warm shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Anything else I'm not thinking of with regard to camping in that kind of cold? New to all this, any advice is appreciated!


Just disconnect the hose before you go to sleep. You have a fresh water tank that you can use overnight that will not freeze. If you drain the outside hose before you put away, you can probably hook it up first thing or mid morning and be ok if you plan on using it right away for showers or whatever. They also sell insulated water hook up hose, but if it's just a few nights, I'd just disconnect and reconnect when temps recover.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> Glamping











Electric Airstream concept is the RV industry's 'iPhone moment'


The Electric Airstream "eStream" and Thor TVV concept motorhome get to share in the RV industry's 'iPhone moment'.




electrek.co


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

singletrackmack said:


> Electric Airstream concept is the RV industry's 'iPhone moment'
> 
> 
> The Electric Airstream "eStream" and Thor TVV concept motorhome get to share in the RV industry's 'iPhone moment'.
> ...


Very interesting


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Like a trolling motor on boat. I reckon if it's reliable and uncomplicated then really useful. Next up they need to drive themselves. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Rock said:


> Just disconnect the hose before you go to sleep.


Yup, that's all it takes!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

singletrackmack said:


> Electric Airstream concept is the RV industry's 'iPhone moment'
> 
> 
> The Electric Airstream "eStream" and Thor TVV concept motorhome get to share in the RV industry's 'iPhone moment'.
> ...


The self drive feature is really nice both for the highway travel to increase range / mileage and the remote parking thing was really cool.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Supposed to take our first overnight tomorrow evening after my NICA first aid training, but we have several inches of snow now. High tomorrow is only 34, not looking good for getting out of the neighborhood. BOO!!!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bummer dude.

You probably dont wanna hear it but it was sunny and 69 today, supposed to poke into the 70s tomorrow......


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

Best gain in battery capacity is with a lithium-phosphate battery. A lead acid 100AH battery can only be drained 50% without greatly shortening its life and so provides 50AH for use. A 100AH lithium battery can be drained by 90% with no issues and so it provides 90AH for use or 80% more capacity in the same amount of space. 

The lithium-phosphate batteries also can be charged at a higher voltage level and charge three times faster, whether from a generator or solar panels. That means less generator run time and less need for 12 hours of sunshine to keep the battery at 100% SOC.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)




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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

Adding wireless cameras and a split screen monitor (can show 4 cameras' views at the same time) is a great way to avoid needing to have a spotter when backing up an RV. There are many being made for truckers and so have a 70 foot or greater range from the camera to the monitor. 

Choice of an RV depends on the number of people on a trip and how long you stay at one location. Simplest approach is with a crew cab pickup truck pulling a travel trailer. Greatest amount of payload per dollar spent and the pickup provides safe seating for up to 6 adults. Even with two people the crew cab pickup provides a place for gear to be used during the day in the back seat area, a bed that with a cap can hold camping gear or bicycles safely inside and out of sight, and a way to mount a rack for a small boat or a couple of kayaks. 

Travel trailers provide the most interior space and most have a dry bath and larger galley area for preparing meals, larger fridge, and can sleep more people. Often the RV manufacturers provide a "can sleep" number that is a fraud as the dinette may be fine for people less than 5.5 feet in height but not the average adult. 

Class B motorhomes are the easiest to drive and park but they require setting up the sleeping area each night and not much space to work inside the RV. They are good for a couple traveling light and happy to use campground showers on their travels.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Supposed to take our first overnight tomorrow evening after my NICA first aid training, but we have several inches of snow now. High tomorrow is only 34, not looking good for getting out of the neighborhood. BOO!!!





Klurejr said:


> Bummer dude.
> 
> You probably dont wanna hear it but it was sunny and 69 today, supposed to poke into the 70s tomorrow......


So NC spring can be interesting. Two weekends ago we were in Brevard and riding in 25 degree temps. Got lucky and it didn't snow on our side of the mountain though. Then this weekend my son had his first NICA race and it was over 80 degrees with pollen covering everything. Never know what you're gonna get!

As an aside, about that Springdale "Arctic Package." Apparently it doesn't get very cold in whatever part of the "Arctic" they are referring to. First trip back in January it got down to 25 and everything was fine, the weekend we spent in Brevard it got down to 15 and not so much. Kitchen and bathroom sink were ok, but the water lines to the toilet and shower both froze. Fortunately they thawed without splitting, and at least we know what doesn't work.


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## MtnBkrBob (Aug 15, 2007)

Just reupped Harvest Host. Time to hit the road.


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

Moved to AZ and actually have RV parking at the house now. Starting to think about a teardrop or small TT. Nothing huge, just want to simplify getting out of town more. Currently eyeballing the Intech trailers as well as the Bean trailers. Though it's likely this is something I don't move on for another year or so while we do a bunch of tent camping the first year here to get a lay of the land. Pulling with a 1 ton diesel van, so not worried about weight at all. Just want a bit more comfort than the tent, without pulling a castle behind us.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

shakazulu12 said:


> Moved to AZ and actually have RV parking at the house now. Starting to think about a teardrop or small TT. Nothing huge, just want to simplify getting out of town more. Currently eyeballing the Intech trailers as well as the Bean trailers. Though it's likely this is something I don't move on for another year or so while we do a bunch of tent camping the first year here to get a lay of the land. Pulling with a 1 ton diesel van, so not worried about weight at all. Just want a bit more comfort than the tent, without pulling a castle behind us.


Look hard at availability. A lot of the small mfrs do build-to-order and have been a year+ out on builds since well before the pandemic.

I love teardrops, but if I was going to upgrade, I'd be looking hard at the smallest I could get that would allow me to keep the bed made full-time, have a small dinette, and a bathroom. Something like a Casita or one of the other small fiberglass egg type trailers.


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

Harold said:


> Look hard at availability. A lot of the small mfrs do build-to-order and have been a year+ out on builds since well before the pandemic.
> 
> I love teardrops, but if I was going to upgrade, I'd be looking hard at the smallest I could get that would allow me to keep the bed made full-time, have a small dinette, and a bathroom. Something like a Casita or one of the other small fiberglass egg type trailers.


Yeah, after my GF and I checked a few out in person. We are liking the Intech Sol Horizon for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Though we will absolutely check out the Casita trailers. I know it's going to be forever before we get our hands on anything, just the nature of the beast. Fortunately we aren't in any huge rush. We are enjoying getting out in the van and tent camping for now.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

my boss has an intech. one of the smaller ones, but I'm not sure which. he's happy with it from what he's told me.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

shakazulu12 said:


> Moved to AZ and actually have RV parking at the house now. Starting to think about a teardrop or small TT. Nothing huge, just want to simplify getting out of town more. Currently eyeballing the Intech trailers as well as the Bean trailers. Though it's likely this is something I don't move on for another year or so while we do a bunch of tent camping the first year here to get a lay of the land. Pulling with a 1 ton diesel van, so not worried about weight at all. Just want a bit more comfort than the tent, without pulling a castle behind us.


I've been really happy with my NuCamp Tab 320 if you want another option to consider. TAB 320 S Teardrop Campers - The Iconic Teardrop Camper


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## Joshhuber2 (May 2, 2021)

Klurejr said:


> View attachment 1975781


I have my 9 year old son do the backup guiding. He's better at it and i can't get mad cause he's 9.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I continue to be tempted to put a backup camera on my teardrop. Usually backing it up isn't an issue. Being short, it maneuvers very well (maybe too well) and it's easy to see around most of the time. But my driveway is a steep drop from the street to my garage, and I can't see squat back there. My wife isn't really helpful to direct me. All she's good at doing is letting me know if I'm close to hitting something. So backing my trailer down my driveway is basically a blind operation.

If I did it, I'd probably look for one that has a battery-powered camera so I don't have to wire it in. I'd use it so infrequently, and I don't exactly have a lot of real estate for mounting. Most of which I took away when I mounted a 3rd brake/tail light for improved visibility.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harold said:


> I continue to be tempted to put a backup camera on my teardrop. Usually backing it up isn't an issue. Being short, it maneuvers very well (maybe too well) and it's easy to see around most of the time. But my driveway is a steep drop from the street to my garage, and I can't see squat back there. My wife isn't really helpful to direct me. All she's good at doing is letting me know if I'm close to hitting something. So backing my trailer down my driveway is basically a blind operation.
> 
> If I did it, I'd probably look for one that has a battery-powered camera so I don't have to wire it in. I'd use it so infrequently, and I don't exactly have a lot of real estate for mounting. Most of which I took away when I mounted a 3rd brake/tail light for improved visibility.


I want one too, but in the 3ish years of owning an RV I have improved on my ability to back into this spot:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

just seeing what you have to back into that spot FROM gives me anxiety.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harold said:


> just seeing what you have to back into that spot FROM gives me anxiety.


oh yeah, my street can be awful depending on time of day. I try to have us getting home from trips either middle of the day mid-week or early/late on a Sunday when traffic is less. It is a 30mph zone, single lane each way with the center lane. But the street is a bit of a connector between cities due to our being on the border of a nature preserve that is a giant road block for east/west travel. On the few occasions I have been forced to back it in when it is busier I get all sorts of angry drivers going in the wrong lane to get around because they cannot wait 2 min.....


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Klurejr said:


> On the few occasions I have been forced to back it in when it is busier I get all sorts of angry drivers going in the wrong lane to get around because they cannot wait 2 min.....


Yup, that's what gives me anxiety.

It gives me a little anxiety to hold up one person in my neighborhood trying to back my trailer down my driveway, because I usually have to rest a few times to straighten out. I'm getting better, but it still takes a few tries.

My old house in Indianapolis was on a busy road, but I had a long, flat driveway with a turnaround. So I could just pull in, park, switch the trailer to a trailer dolley, and push it where I needed to put it. All I can do with the trailer dolley at my current place is get it in/out of the garage. Of course, tiny camper and nonmotorized trailer dolley so while it's not too hard to move it, I still have limits.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I wish I could move mine with a dolly. My driveway has a pretty steep slope. To keep it level when parked the trailer jack is on an block made of four pieces of 4x4 fence posts screwed together and I still extend it a ton and drop the front stabilizer Jack's way down onto the big lego brick things.

Before I bought this trailer my buddy helped me cut this section of wall up by the sidewalk that was sticking out into the parking area. With that cleared backing in is way easier now.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Harold said:


> I continue to be tempted to put a backup camera on my teardrop. Usually backing it up isn't an issue. Being short, it maneuvers very well (maybe too well) and it's easy to see around most of the time. But my driveway is a steep drop from the street to my garage, and I can't see squat back there. My wife isn't really helpful to direct me. All she's good at doing is letting me know if I'm close to hitting something. So backing my trailer down my driveway is basically a blind operation.
> 
> If I did it, I'd probably look for one that has a battery-powered camera so I don't have to wire it in. I'd use it so infrequently, and I don't exactly have a lot of real estate for mounting. Most of which I took away when I mounted a 3rd brake/tail light for improved visibility.


I used to stick a 6-foot tall orange bicycle safety flag on the back of my dirt bike trailer for backing up when empty.

Otherwise, it was invisible behind the sprinter until it was trouble time.


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## Doedrums (Mar 7, 2010)

Here is my Class B. A '99 Coachmen Saratoga DRT built on a Dodge B3500 Maxi Van. Has everything. Shower, toilet, a/c, furnace, microwave, fridge and generator. We've taken it on two cross country trips, with lots of regional camping and mountain bike trips. Boondocking in the forest outside of the Grand Canyon and spending a week in Yellowstone are some of our favorite trips. One of the best things we have ever bought. One day I'd like to upgrade to a Coachmen Beyond or a Tiger Adventure Vehicles Bengal.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Just wanted to throw out another thanks for the recommendation. Just booked our second Hipcamp reservation. First was for a week in scenic Candler, NC (near Berm Park, decent base camp for a week of riding WNC). Kiddos are racing 2.5 hours from home this weekend, and an 8:30 start time was giving me serious reservations. Found a place 20 minutes from the race site for just $35/night, can go up tomorrow and preride and don't have to get up at 4:00am race day now. Much better! 



Harold said:


> On short notice, I've been going after Hipcamp (and other similar types of places) sites. Gotta be flexible about location, though.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Just wanted to throw out another thanks for the recommendation. Just booked our second Hipcamp reservation. First was for a week in scenic Candler, NC (near Berm Park, decent base camp for a week of riding WNC). Kiddos are racing 2.5 hours from home this weekend, and an 8:30 start time was giving me serious reservations. Found a place 20 minutes from the race site for just $35/night, can go up tomorrow and preride and don't have to get up at 4:00am race day now. Much better!


What'd you think of Berm Park? For as close to home as it is (as close or closer than Bent Creek), I still haven't ridden there.

Wife's been working on me hard to get a bigger camper for awhile now. I've been resistant for a variety of reasons, but she's wearing me down and we're getting close to submitting an order for a Casita.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

The Casita looks nice, would definitely pull a lot easier than the 10k monstrosity my wife decided was necessary. 

Berm Park was fun, we went on a weekday so it wasn't crowded. Was fun working up to clearing the jumps, having the tabletops vs gaps makes it easy to build up confidence. The runs were WAY shorter than I realized. We spent most of the day on High Roller, it's only about a 20 second ride so you just keep looping around. On the Fly had was a little longer (45s, my max speed was 23mph) and had big berms, but the jumps are longer than I am able to clear. I wouldn't travel to ride there again, but if I was local it would be cool if I had an hour or two to kill. We did about 9 miles with 1150 feet of climbing.


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## MtnBkrBob (Aug 15, 2007)

Wife and I just got back from about a month of traveling around the upper east coast with our travel trailer. Didn't bring the mountain bikes but brought our Trek Verve +3s. Lots of nice rides along old dirt rail lines through the forests and mountains of New England. 

A word of caution - lots of ticks in New England right now. Use bug spray! I didn't and was infected with Lyme Disease. No biggie - but it'll take me off my bikes for a while.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I contracted STARI in AR. Haven't had a tick or even seen one in 15 years since moving away from the Northeast... vile creatures.

Thank GOD STARI is not as bad as lymes. I had about three or four episodes with alpha- gal. Very weird, and the first one was quite unpleasant If not downright scary. Like having an intense panic attack even though I've never experienced one before. Had to get out of bed, out of my van, stand up, walk around a bit, and focus on my breathing. Felt like I couldn't get enough oxygen and my heart was racing. Came thiiiis close to going to the hospital. Problem was I was towards the end of Beef Bottom Road, the very definition of the middle of freaking nowhere . My bite was necronic like and took a long time to heal. Maybe 3 weeks of symptoms and I've been fine since.

Good luck👍


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## hit4bag (7 mo ago)

We have a 28’ Open Range TT. It’s a labor of love. However, we try to get out at least once a month. We booked a trip to Vail Lake KOA in November and we’ll hit Vailocity, which is convenient as it’s close to the campground.


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