# Fox Proframe crashed - design problem or material defect



## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

My 14 yrs son had a crash at a pumptrack with some serious consequences: concussion, maxillary sinus bone broken, his right eye is impacted. He is ok now, in positive recovery. He had the brand new Fox Proframe, bought a week earlier.








I sent a message to FOX RACING customer service a week ago, not response whatsoever.

My question is: How is it possible that chinbar can be broken the way, its moving inside helmet and crushing the face bones? At a pumtrack, NOT downhill ride, and by 110 pound boy.

I have a huge doubts about the design of mounting of the chinbar to the main body of helmet. It didn't do the work, and even more, I have no idea how this design could stand it. The chinbar/helmet joint is very weak. The integrated chinbar is patent pending, is it really well tested?

Any thoughts ?

Some more helmet pictures are here. Take a look how weak the chinbar mount is. https://photos.app.goo.gl/sE1wW5NckkvdewCZA


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## riyadh (Feb 13, 2015)

WOW, thats hectic. glad your son is doing ok.
Would love to know what fox has to say.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

On the TLD Stage, there's also a seam there, between the chin and main helmet. Only 1 small difference, is that the outer shell has a tiny bit of continuity between the chin and the front edge area of the eyeport, forward of where the chin strap is riveted on. Not sure what's behind the upholstery inside the chin bar, but it's pretty compliant, with something hard under it. Be pretty interesting to see how it's made; it feels pretty solid to me.

On a DH helmet I have, Urge Down-o-Matic, it's just straight woven fiberglass without seams, also with a 1 piece shell bonded to the entire structure. Only seam is between the internal upholstery. Looked at an old TLD D2 and it's similar (LOL @ the glue holding the velcro, which hold the cheek pads, coming off, due to age).

Definite design difference between enduro FF and DH FF, based on TLD Stage, your pictures, and what I've seen.

Honestly, the only must have design difference that the enduro FF has, over the DH, is the extra large unobstructed port in front of the mouth, because I like to be exhale without fogging up my goggles or sucking it up back through my nose. Also allows me the opportunity to drink and spit with less effort.

Thanks for informing us. Learned more about how the helmets are constructed. Looks like the Proframe's chinguard is just the plastic shell and that elastic internal part, with questionable connection between it and the rest of the helmet.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

That is concerning. I have a Proframe and love it for riding. Now i'm a little concerned. 

Perhaps the design if more centered around frontal impacts rather than side impacts?
Either way thats not good. I'm interested to hear the response from Fox. 

On a side note. Pump tracks can be hard and unforgiving. A crash on a pump track could equal or exceed the forces of a dh crash.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Fox probably forwarded your email to their lawyers. Hope your son makes a full recovery. Good luck.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

I agree with @plummet, in my view the hit was very unfortunate for this type of design. It looks like it is protecting for a more frontal impact. I'm really surprised, how light this connection of chinbar is. You expect the side impact won't make such a huge damages. Still, looking at the @ninjichor photo, i think FOX could design something more reliable. I was between Proframe and Bell Super 3R, i choose FOX because I thought a FF with a fixed chinbar will be more safe.


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

d365 said:


> Fox probably forwarded your email to their lawyers. Hope your son makes a full recovery. Good luck.


This.... I would if it was me and my kid had been injured in this manner.. I'd probably contact fox via my attorney at this point.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

wow. I have a proframe and race in it frequently but I've always said the idea of a "light" fullface is B.S. If you need full face protection there's no substitute for a real full face. I'm glad your son is relatively ok and on the mend! Interested to hear Fox's response as well.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Fox brags about passing the ASTM F1952 - 15 ("Downhill") standard. Using the testing Bell showed in this video for context, to see what these things are designed for, I see the chin guard deflecting enough to smack the headform's chin in that linear impact test.

It's like having someone at Fox Head swinging a baseball bat, made of that rubbery stuff they used for their Proframe's chin bar, and making a game out of it to get it as close as possible without touching. That's the weight weenie game in a nutshell...

Well, I guess I feel better that I chose a Stage over a Proframe, seeing that square shaped bar that seemingly extends from the chin to ear, to cover this kind of impact. I figure that it spreads the impact over more material, adding the foam from the main section to absorb some of it. I don't know for sure, but I speculate that the Proframe is just secured by a plastic tab that perhaps gets attached at the chin strap rivet. Probably just relies on being flexibility of the rubbery stuff, and the stiffness of the plastic to spread the impact out along the rubbery stuff.

Edit: apparently, the DH rating for the chinbar is: 5kg weight dropped from 0.4m, not to deflect the chinbar by more than 60mm.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I guarantee you that Fox is lawyering up right now. Their customer service isn’t going to say a thing. Sorry about your son.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I am concerned about this helmet after reading your post.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm sure Fox has a attorneys on retainer and doesn't need to "lawyer up". Their customer service is sometimes pretty lacking, at least on the suspension side.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

And you haven't served them notice of anything, as in you've not sent a return receipt letter stating the facts and giving them 10 business days to reply. And not just a reply, but hopefully what you believe is the correct outcome. Even if they didn't reply, if you stated your case well in the letter, with a return-receipt, this would show in court that Fox was well aware of your inquiry and decided not to respond, which may look bad, depending on how well you worded your letter. Often times this act alone gets a company with any kind of competent legal department/retainer to do the right thing. Otherwise, their legal counsel may advise them to not respond and see you in court, if it comes to that. In most cases, the competent lawyers are going to recommend this when they are pretty sure they are in the right. If fox is really in the wrong though and you are just "Joe Public" sending an email to fox or leaving message, they are likely going to advise to just ignore you. In other words, having not served them legal notice, it's as if no communication has actually taken place.  Serving them, you can at least show "hands down" that they got something and decided to ignore it.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

not every crash can be accounted for in helmet design

the design may be intentional to absorb energy redirect energy or whatever

I agree pumptracks are brutal. my worst injuries were taking diggers on pumptracks.
crashes in woods so far have been easier than pump track crashes
pump track is ....brutal


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

That's some cool testing by bell in the vids. Looks like the design intent of the chin guard is to dissipate force from a frontal impact. Side impacts will be less able to be dissipated due to the reduction in material at the point.

Jeese you Americans are litigious. Quick sue them.. send in the lawyers .......


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## Austin-nc (Apr 18, 2018)

No replacement for an actual full face if you are after protection that a full face offers, if you're somewhere you'd normally wear a half shell then yeah maybe the lightweight helmets are better but I see too many people wearing them at parks and such just doesnt seem worth it. Also I'm not sure there is many cases where a helmet company would be liable for a broken helmet during a crash.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

This Bell video is really great. I think you should be able to see a similar ones when you purchase this type of product


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

I'm not an expert neither about helmets & crash tests. And yes, the design might be intentional. And probably is. Now my question would if any of helmet owners are aware about such design principles ? I was not. This might be a big differentiator.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

My questions are about safety and selection of the given product over the others.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Yes, I'm not a lawyer, I'm only a frustrated and worried father. And I guess that probably I can't do about much about it. But at the same time, I believe everyone deserves an honest response. And I need to think about the next steps. Also i need to more carefully think when buying this type of products.


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## mfowler95 (Jan 9, 2012)

I’m not aware of any helmet manufacturer or any piece of safety gear that claims it will prevent an injury. Helmets are designed to help absorb some of the impact, which it did. Just think how severe the injuries would have been without the helmet or even a half shell. As for your next step, get your kid healed up, get him a new lid and get him back on the bike. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Streetdoctor said:


> I'm sure Fox has a attorneys on retainer and doesn't need to "lawyer up". Their customer service is sometimes pretty lacking, at least on the suspension side.


It's just a saying. I mean they've forwarded the message to their lawyers.

BTW Fox Head (the helmet maker) is a totally separate business from Fox Racing (the suspension company). I was reading about how the brothers decided who got to use the head logo and who got the tail logo (coin toss). It thought it was pretty interesting.

https://www.biketart.com/blog/2017/01/fox-clothing-forty-years-of-looking-great-on-a-bike/


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## pctloper (Jan 3, 2016)

Note all helmets meet the same govt standard-----from the walmart $10 up----there is no other standard just marketing claims which may be valid or not--same on the motorcycle front--I see no legal recourse---if there was everyone with a busted helmet would claim a design issue---same as for every busted wheel that causes a wreck etc--and how on earth could you prove this----beyond me---all one can do is evaluate products as best you can----of course one of those TV advertising injury lawyers would be happy to take your money.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

There is possible legal recourse, but you'd have to hire experts to evaluate the helmet and assuming there is a flaw or it doesn't meet the claims, you might have a case, but that takes money and time. In some cases, it's pretty easy to determine when this is the case, but in others, it could easily go either way. There are often valid concerns and issues brought up under analysis, but again, it could turn into those issues when someone with deep pockets is trying to get something out of a company. 

There's a good chance that this thread and what has transpired here will force them to take a re-look at it and probably re-design it in the next coming season or two. As you say, you can't account for everything and sometimes this is the way they happen upon new data.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Great point, i went through the same thinking path, which led me to the question: WHICH HELMET and WHY? The other thought I have is: there are plenty of helmet reviews: weight, comfort, breathability, etc. But not much about its major usability: crash impact. 

I can tell even more, before buying i was scanning the MTBR forum (and Internet) for any insights about Fox Proframe (which is very popular between kids here), and i didn't find anything useful.

Finally, I think this helmet did a good job. Believe me, I was thinking A LOT what it would be if my son had a normal helmet :-( Could this FF do a better job? This is what I'm trying do find out.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

I'm an engineer, in a different field, but still. On the rational side, such "real data" has a great value for designers, this is how the evolution of the products happens. Every product. And here we talk about real health and/or life impact.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

maon said:


> I'm an engineer, in a different field, but still. On the rational side, such "real data" has a great value for designers, this is how the evolution of the products happens. Every product. And here we talk about real health and/or life impact.


To true. You also know then as an engineer that behind the scenes there will be engineering meetings/discussions/evaluations of your email to attempt to determine if there is any design fault?, manufacturing fault? has the product worked as expected? what improvements if any need to be made? If the design is week or faulty should there be a product recall? etc,,,,, These questions and evaluations take time. Particularly if the answer is not glaringly obvious. From a customer service point of view they should at least respond with a "your case is being reviewed email"


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Fox helmets meet these certifications


CERTIFICATIONS
ASTM F1952 (including chin bar rigidity test)
EN 1078
AS/NZ 2063
CPSC


that being said riding a bike is inherently dangerous and there is risk involved. You are not going to get very far trying to litigate Fox on this helmet crack. If it didn't crack I would suspect the damage to the skull and face would be even worse, but of course this is all speculation. 

go for it if you want to litigate, but I suspect a dead end there. they are owned a 2.5 billion dollar company so you may find a pot of gold, or nothing here.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Having these discussions taking place would be already a win to me and all of us...


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

I'm not a US citizen, so the pot of gold is not my objective. i think helmet should/could crack, this is how energy can be absorbed. But it should retain the shape to protect a head.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

maon said:


> I'm an engineer, in a different field, but still. On the rational side, such "real data" has a great value for designers, this is how the evolution of the products happens. Every product. And here we talk about real health and/or life impact.


True, but the company has a responsibility to put out a product that meets the intentions of said product. This is where things often get pretty muddy, as in was enough testing done, was the design sound, were alternatives considered, were cost decisions made that over-rode the design, etc. The company could have done everything reasonably (key word here) possible, or investigation could reveal they cut corners. Boeing is a great example of this and the debate is exactly this right now, did they take adequate measures or did they cut corners.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> Fox *claims their* helmets meet these certifications
> 
> CERTIFICATIONS
> ASTM F1952 (including chin bar rigidity test)
> ...


And maybe they do, but there is an element of faith and assuming that they actually meet those standards or that the testing was done correctly. Strange things happen in production land. Sometimes lines are changed mid-cycle, in rare cases data is faked or never happened, sometimes the test wasn't performed correctly, and so on...


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Jayem said:


> And maybe they do, but there is an element of faith and assuming that they actually meet those standards or that the testing was done correctly. Strange things happen in production land. Sometimes lines are changed mid-cycle, in rare cases data is faked or never happened, sometimes the test wasn't performed correctly, and so on...


if you are going to pull this misquote me crap as a reply, in a serious non-comedy thread, then why not say: train your kid to not crash and smash into the ground ?

for f sake biking is dangerous. you can't strap on a helmet and expect it to keep everything safe just by being a helmet. there are a million things going on besides that helmet being there.

harden up means exactly that. WHEN the bike bites you (not if, when), heal up and ride again. or not.

FOX did not become a giant in 'dangerous offroad sports' gear by cutting corners all willy nilly. they'd have been 'found out' long ago....


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

I've been purchasing Fox protective gear for decades, for motorcycle and mountain biking. It is very unfortunate that the OP's kid crashed and was injured. There are many variables that contribute to a crash and holding a "public trial" on the internet is not in the best interest of anyone, certainly not the two parties involved in this unfortunate instance.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> if you are going to pull this misquote me crap as a reply, in a serious non-comedy thread, then why not say: train your kid to not crash and smash into the ground ?
> 
> for f sake biking is dangerous. you can't strap on a helmet and expect it to keep everything safe just by being a helmet. there are a million things going on besides that helmet being there.
> 
> ...


Yeah, because large companies are infallible. Good day.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Jayem said:


> Yeah, because* JAYEM is infallible.* Good day.


 you, infallible.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> you, infallible.


Not sure why the personal attacks are necessary, putting the words in your quote wasn't intended to be any kind of attack, just the most efficient way to make the point that we assume things that are sometimes proven wrong at a later date. Is the adding of the words why you are so angry? Do you believe a company cannot be at fault?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Jayem said:


> Do you believe *JAYEM* cannot be at fault?


well, now that you've said it that way, no, Jayem cannot be at fault.

don't quote edit, scoundrel


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Those testing standards have been criticized by many, notable Kali, saying that they're not good enough. POC and Volvo said the tests are "rudimentary".

I think this is a consumer decision to make; can't rely on big brother to make good decisions. Those certifications seemingly just increase the price of the helmet uselessly. Go with a brand that cares more about protection maybe, rather than weight, vent hole #, looks, and whatever else looks good on the advertisement.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

ninjichor said:


> Those testing standards have been criticized by many, notable Kali, saying that they're not good enough. POC and Volvo said the tests are "rudimentary".
> 
> I think this is a consumer decision to make; can't rely on big brother to make good decisions. Those certifications seemingly just increase the price of the helmet uselessly. Go with a brand that cares more about protection maybe, rather than weight, vent hole #, looks, and whatever else looks good on the advertisement.


I can show you many worthless helmets that will amaze and dazzle you, and won't pass any certifications. Then there is FOX who spends millions to sponsor factory race teams in human sport and motorsport. You may think FOX spends a large amount on the safety and analysis and development of head protection since they need to keep their own racers alive and as harm free as possible despite all the risks in these sports. and yup they do get all that testing and research, it is not some useless certification or sticker. even then, how many professional motor or human sport athletes are now dead or in wheelchairs as a result of head injury on-the-job? plenty. despite all the most advanced protection, you are gonna get dinged, even with the most advanced helmet in the world. There is likely zero inherent defect in any FOX helmet....but humans still run the factories, and humans make mistakes in design and manufacture sometimes in all industries. was this helmet defective I doubt it highly. is riding a bike on a pump track hazardous hell yes.

how the heck are you going to quantify 'go with a brand that cares more about protection' ? really ? so you mean only use Bontrager WaveCel helmets ? Oh no maybe a Koroyd ? maybe MIPS liquid ? oh you need chin protection then ? ok what brand ?

seriously, what brand 'cares the most ' ? I'd love to know *who cares the most.*


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

OP, you may find an expert on MTBR with a reasonable opinion, but otherwise trying to discern whether helmet did what it was intended to do or Fox at fault, is money and time intensive. 

Cracked a Bell Helmet, way back in the day, Superman over the bars and head first into smallish tree. Friends laughing it up when I dusted myself off. At the time Bell provided a crash replacement if you sent in a check and a story about the crash. There was probably fine print waiving Bell of liability. 

So I sent it in, got my crash replacement helmet a few weeks later, and a certificate with my name on it stating "Saved by the Bell"

Glad your son is ok and not hurt worse. 

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

127.0.0.1 said:


> I can show you many worthless helmets that will amaze and dazzle you, and won't pass any certifications. Then there is FOX who spends millions to sponsor factory race teams in human sport and motorsport. You may think FOX spends a large amount on the safety and analysis and development of head protection since they need to keep their own racers alive and as harm free as possible despite all the risks in these sports. and yup they do get all that testing and research, it is not some useless certification or sticker. even then, how many professional motor or human sport athletes are now dead or in wheelchairs as a result of head injury on-the-job? plenty. despite all the most advanced protection, you are gonna get dinged, even with the most advanced helmet in the world. There is likely zero inherent defect in any FOX helmet....but humans still run the factories, and humans make mistakes in design and manufacture sometimes in all industries. was this helmet defective I doubt it highly. is riding a bike on a pump track hazardous hell yes.
> 
> how the heck are you going to quantify 'go with a brand that cares more about protection' ? really ? so you mean only use Bontrager WaveCel helmets ? Oh no maybe a Koroyd ? maybe MIPS liquid ? oh you need chin protection then ? ok what brand ?
> 
> seriously, what brand 'cares the most ' ? I'd love to know *who cares the most.*


It isn't like it is unknowable, i.e., practical sense = which helmet is safer. Who cares most=wrong question.

Establish criteria to test, then test and evaluate data. May not be a clear winner but consumers will be better informed.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

127.0.0.1 said:


> I'd love to know *who cares the most.*


Companies care the most about making money, otherwise we wouldn't be riding around in glorified beer foam coolers on our heads.

As far as the Proframe, based on the crash it seems it's a weak point in the helmet but any joint is a weakness unless it's reinforced. I would hope that the chin guard wouldn't disloge in a crash resulting in more injuries, but I've tried on a lot of convertible helmets (yes, I know the proframe isn't one of them but still has a joint at the chin) and I don't know if they would have fared much better. Like others have said, a true DH helmet seems to be the best bet to avoid these kinds of injuries.


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## Muddy-Runs (Sep 14, 2018)

These helmets meant to fill the gap between a normal/half shell helmets and fullon DH helmets. These type of helmets are great for someone that looking for more protection (but dont need full DH helmet) on techy singletracks/full enduro days. For bike parks and pump tracks i would go with full fullface DH helmets over these kinds...

To the OP, i think the helmet did the job, even thou it got broken and your kid got injured, it could end up much worse... that been said, i hope your kid will get better as soon as possible and back on his bike. For his next helmet i would get him full DH one.


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

Thanks for this post and I hope your son recovers well.

I currently have the Bell Super and it has a metal band/hook between the helmet and chinbar so this sort of failure *shouldn't* happen.

I was looking at the Proframe, but had an issue with the fit. The Proframe is off my list now.



maon said:


> View attachment 1256093
> 
> 
> My question is: How is it possible that chinbar can be broken the way, its moving inside helmet and crushing the face bones? At a pumtrack, NOT downhill ride, and by 110 pound boy.
> ...


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

it just appears to be a lightweight foam helmet
as others said, get a real moto helmet or dh rated one

this dude crashed, and as he destroys his proframe further by throwing it around, you can see it is not very substantial structure






it is an 'all day trail helmet' and the chinbar is a joke. it masquerades as a more substantial helmet. IMHO. no defect, just not very beefy. It about equal as a standard mips road helmet... and forget about the chinbar, it may as well not even exist. I still say not FOX fault, but in seeking a helmet for pump tracks (which may as well be concrete), start with motorcycle dirtbike helmets and work your way down to what you can afford/has ventilation/lighter weight. but proframe is not that helmet.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Thanks. I have seen a lot of positive stories like yours about the Proframe too. I guess its a question of case/luck. I'm thinking about something more firm now.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Thanks! I also think helmet did a good job, no question at all. And that was my very first thought too. And i agree with your comment about this helmet being a kind of bridge between half shelf and FF helmets. This is why I'd thought its a good fit for my son's case. 
Actually I think the Fox web is misleading "Designed to perform at the highest levels for aggressive all mountain riders and enduro racers, it packs DH certified protection into a superlight shell via our patent pending, fully integrated chinbar. " 

Just read the last section "DH certified protection ...(in)... superlight shell" .... I know its marketing, but its too sensitive area for overrating safety. 

I'm still questioning this "patent pending, fully integrated chinbar". I'm really wondering what is the subject of the patent. it looks like glued or something like that. 

Fully means - "to the greatest degree or extent; totally; entirely". I fully disagree its a case here.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Thank you, he is ok and needs only time now. Good to hear you've found this post useful. I think its good to know what this product is fit for.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Thanks for this video! Yes, I'm going to look for something more reliable for sure. The shelf looks also really light indeed...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

127.0.0.1 said:


> It about equal as a standard mips road helmet


The ProFrame is definitely more substantial than a road helmet.


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

MarkMass said:


> Thanks for this post and I hope your son recovers well.
> 
> I currently have the Bell Super and it has a metal band/hook between the helmet and chinbar so this sort of failure *shouldn't* happen.
> 
> I was looking at the Proframe, but had an issue with the fit. The Proframe is off my list now.


The only one i've seen where this sort of side impact will probably not be an issue is the Giro Switchblade with a beefy metal connection mechanism, but no way to really tell without real crash data.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

matadorCE said:


> The only one i've seen where this sort of side impact will probably not be an issue is the Giro Switchblade with a beefy metal connection mechanism, but no way to really tell without real crash data.


Switchblade with the chin bar broken. Here


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## Austin-nc (Apr 18, 2018)

Muddy-Runs said:


> These helmets meant to fill the gap between a normal/half shell helmets and fullon DH helmets. These type of helmets are great for someone that looking for more protection (but dont need full DH helmet) on techy singletracks/full enduro days. For bike parks and pump tracks i would go with full fullface DH helmets over these kinds...
> 
> To the OP, i think the helmet did the job, even thou it got broken and your kid got injured, it could end up much worse... that been said, i hope your kid will get better as soon as possible and back on his bike. For his next helmet i would get him full DH one.


Agree, for some reason you see the proframe used like this more than the other lightweight helmets.

They are lightweight so you can pedal in them all day then descend. If you are at a pumptrack or a park it doesnt really provide any benefits only negatives. The first time i tried one on I was very suprised how unsubstantial it felt compared to an actual full face.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> it just appears to be a lightweight foam helmet
> as others said, get a real moto helmet or dh rated one
> 
> this dude crashed, and as he destroys his proframe further by throwing it around, you can see it is not very substantial structure
> ...


So this guy crashes hard, Gives himself a concussion doesnt smash his teeth out or injure his face other than some brusing? i say thats a win. The helmet did hits job!. This video actually makes me feel better about the helmet.

What would of happened with a more robust helmet? I reckon the same.

Also we have consider the intended use of this helmet. Its for all day riding with the advantage of some face protection. Its not indeeded for serious DH racing or hardcore stuff. For that a full on DH helmet will be superior.

So.... When a standard dh helmet is too heavy/cumbersome for normal use but you still want to hit some features what do you do? use a normal open face helmet. Is this better than a normal open face helmet for crashing on your face? yes it is.

I think the helmet is performing as per its design intent. It's unfortunate that op's son has crashed on the weakest part of the helmet. How much worse would it be if he was using an open face helmet? We dont really want to think about that outcome!


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Can we clarify something? When I read "pump track" I picture something like this, which is hard for me to imagine hitting the ground all too hard:









Now, if we're talking about something like this, I call those "dirt jumps" on which i could easily see smashing a helmet to bits:









Which one are we talking about?


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

When you contact ANY company regarding fault or liability, the first person that reads it will contact their manager. The manager will pass it on to whomever he can. It will most likely become a priority.

The 5 groups who will be in contact are
-Management
-The lawyer
-QC
-Manufacturing
-and the Standards Organization that provides the testing.
__________________________________________________________

The company, in your case Fox, won't contact you directly until they have answers themselves. If they do, it can possibly used in court. If they need to do a recall, they can. But that's up to them and the team mentioned above. If too many helmets are faulty then the CPC can step in and make a recall notice. 

Don't expect a call today and them to be like "Hey, we screwed up. Here's a new one!". That can admit fault in a court of law. 

The shop I used to work at found that out the hard way about 30 years ago. 

Ttyl, Fahn


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## Captain_America1976 (Mar 15, 2005)

Nat said:


> Can we clarify something? When I read "pump track" I picture something like this, which is hard for me to imagine hitting the ground all too hard:
> 
> View attachment 1257097
> 
> ...


There is also the asphalt version. Like the first one, but a hell of a lot faster and harder.

Totally unrelated a Fox Flux MIPS helmet saved my head 2 weeks ago. I ended up with 6 stitches in my arm, and 4 rib fractures(2 breaks each in 2 ribs)















I have a Proframe that I got for some light DH this summer, so following this thread with interest.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Nat said:


> Can we clarify something? When I read "pump track" I picture something like this, which is hard for me to imagine hitting the ground all too hard:
> 
> View attachment 1257097
> 
> ...


This one, smaller, but the asphalt version. So its a harder version (when crashing) for sure.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Thanks Fahn, this sounds logical indeed. As I'm very passionate about it for obvious reasons, I'm going to initiate a more official case.


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## bikedreamer (Mar 27, 2010)

Thank you, maon, for sharing this. I was seriously contemplating getting a Fox Proframe, but am having some second thoughts now.

If you decide to pursue legal action, let me offer some advice. 
1) Document _everything_. How your son is doing. The effects this injury had on him, you, and the rest of the family. Expenses incurred. Time away from work. Have your son keep a journal on his experiences.
2) Never, ever speak to Fox's rep without consulting your lawyer. They can be very sneaky, and will try tricking you into saying something you don't necessarily mean.
3) Be prepared for the long haul on the case. It can take years to resolve.

I wish your son a speedy and thorough recovery.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Bikedreamer, thank you for capturing your thoughts. This definitely is very useful. I'm very disappointed they didn't respond to any of my emails, but based on feedback collected so far, this seems to be the company strategy to customers' complaints.


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## MeatyChi (Feb 6, 2015)

maon said:


> Bikedreamer, thank you for capturing your thoughts. This definitely is very useful. I'm very disappointed they didn't respond to any of my emails, but based on feedback collected so far, this seems to be the company strategy to customers' complaints.


Hope your lads better now. Were there any further developments with your complaints?


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

MeatyChi said:


> Hope your lads better now. Were there any further developments with your complaints?


My lad is better, he's just more careful now :thumbsup:
Perfect timing for your question, just 2-3 days ago I got a msg from Fox Customer Service that they want to run an investigation of the product and they asked how they can pick it up. Better later then never.
Ps. I've found a few other posts on pinkbike re fragile chinbars in this model.


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## ksj (Aug 31, 2019)

I would speak with an attorney before I let them just have the helmet. You haven't heard from them because they were expecting to hear from your legal advisor.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

I'm based in Poland, and finding the legal advisor experienced in such cases was not a easy task. Also legal authorities are not very responsive....


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## matim (Apr 11, 2018)

*Just crashed my Proface*

Thanks for the entire thread I find it extremely helpful and disturbing.
Had a minor fall yesterday into a gravel hill. 
My fox proface broke completely at the chin bar split into half and got off my head during the crash. It cut my entire face, lips, chick nose and next to the eye. Still at the hospital after a serious surgery. 
Guess I am not the first.
Extremely disappointed from the helmet, not sure what to do next.
What came out with Fox representatives?
Will surely contact them when I am out of the hospital.
Thanks



maon said:


> I'm based in Poland, and finding the legal advisor experienced in such cases was not a easy task. Also legal authorities are not very responsive....


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## matim (Apr 11, 2018)

*Proframe broke in half*

Thanks for the thread!
Very helpful and disturbing indeed.
I had a minor crash on the trail yesterday, into a dirt pile. 
My fox proframe broke on impact into two pieces, slashing my chick, nose and lip.
Was evacuated by helicopter to a hospital straight into surgery. 
I have no injuries except my face it wasn't a big fall.
Seeing this thread definitely make me feel an easy, I did not expect that from a full face helmet.
Will definitely contact fox once I am out of hospital.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

matim said:


> Thanks for the thread!
> Very helpful and disturbing indeed.
> I had a minor crash on the trail yesterday, into a dirt pile.
> My fox proframe broke on impact into two pieces, slashing my chick, nose and lip.
> ...


Hi matim, this is terrible story, sorry to hear it. Hope you are ok and wish you not to suffer from it long term. Take your time to recover, this is a priority. Back to your question, I don't have any further news, despite I contacted my local fox distributor a month ago. We agreed to contact in mid April, but things got complicated due to the lockdown .....


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Damn, does this helmet need to be recalled?

I've got a Bell 3R, that video was pretty good, but I can see how it woudl only do so much.

Of course, I also need to start installing the chin bar ...


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## matim (Apr 11, 2018)

maon said:


> Hi matim, this is terrible story, sorry to hear it. Hope you are ok and wish you not to suffer from it long term. Take your time to recover, this is a priority. Back to your question, I don't have any further news, despite I contacted my local fox distributor a month ago. We agreed to contact in mid April, but things got complicated due to the lockdown .....


Thanks for the update @maon!
I am finally home recovering slowly, thank you for your concern!
It was a relatively minor fall, and I seriously think they should evaluate the product and possibly notify owners about the potential consequences, I fell several times in my life, including a serious crash that dented my Bell super 2. But nothing even close to that.
I will follow with Fox and keep this thread posted.
Thanks again


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

That's alarming that the only thing connecting the chin bar to the main helmet is the shell, which happens to have a thin part at the seam. A brake rotor is ~1.8mm thick, for reference, and that plastic looks narrower.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Damn, does this helmet need to be recalled?
> 
> I've got a Bell 3R, that video was pretty good, but I can see how it woudl only do so much.
> 
> Of course, I also need to start installing the chin bar ...


Bell Super DH is the only convertible I'd consider, it's far more sturdy vs the 3R and the 2-layer foam seems like it might be far better at preventing concussions. 1st point is fact, it's DH certified, 2nd point is a guess, but there is more space between the shell and your head with 2 layers of foam of different types. Differences in comfort or weight are inconsequential.

----

I've heard some less than positive feedback on the proframe and switchblade, would avoid both personally as I don't think the design is good. My head doesn't fit Fox helmets anyways...

I have not seen the stage in-person but always like TLD fit and quality.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I have a TLD Stage. Been using it full time as my only helmet for over a year. I love the open mouth guard's convenience, allowing me to breathe easier and also drink without taking off my helmet. The vents on the top make it comfortable at lower speeds, or while stopped, compared to more protective full face helmets.

Not a fan of the cheek pads and how they contact with my ears. A lot of wind noise gets through, which is especially noticeable after wearing a half shell with car ear wind suppressors. If I wanted better protection, I'd be wearing a 6D full face helmet.

Looks like there's also a separation for the TLD, between chin and main helmet. There's more area to spread the impact over, and not likely to break at the split at the foam, so no jagged edge going into the side of the face.


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## maon (Oct 8, 2007)

Varaxis said:


> That's alarming that the only thing connecting the chin bar to the main helmet is the shell, which happens to have a thin part at the seam. A brake rotor is ~1.8mm thick, for reference, and that plastic looks narrower.


You got the point, when i saw it after it had broken, I was literally shocked.


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

On the stage Jaw Pads, you can 'flip' them around, if they are touching your ear lobes. Pretty easy, I did a video on my instagram 
https://www.instagram.com/stories/highlights/18074395015195095/



Varaxis said:


> I have a TLD Stage. Been using it full time as my only helmet for over a year. I love the open mouth guard's convenience, allowing me to breathe easier and also drink without taking off my helmet. The vents on the top make it comfortable at lower speeds, or while stopped, compared to more protective full face helmets.
> 
> Not a fan of the cheek pads and how they contact with my ears. A lot of wind noise gets through, which is especially noticeable after wearing a half shell with car ear wind suppressors. If I wanted better protection, I'd be wearing a 6D full face helmet.
> 
> ...


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## Sendit2020 (Nov 6, 2020)

*Troy lee stage helmet*

Just sharing pic of Troy Lee Stage helmet. Accidental low speed faceplant into wood platform. Front impact of chin bar smashed it, turned head sideways to impact orbital face area. The exposed hard plastic is very sharp and will cut face slightly. 
Not harping on this helmet at all. It most likely save me from broken jaw and missing teeth. Having seen that dudes video trying to break a Fox proframe, the PF may be stronger than the Stage but we need to see video testing of all helmets. 
Considering the velocity and height, I feel the chinbar should not have broken into pieces. Then again, maybe by breaking it reduced neck damage. I don't know. Falls suck but knowledge and choices will benefit the consumer. 
My previous helmet was a Bell Super 3r which chinbar folded sideways upon impact causing facial impact to rock. 
I think the head design for protection on all these helmets are all top notch and should save you but clearly, these 3 helmets are lightweight and provide limited protection for a face fall. I feel all the video Reviews are useless unless you can see impact results and explanation of what should occur with the design. That is the whole point - protection.

I feel Fox, TroyLeeDesigns and Bell are all good companies that make good product lines. I don't think you can go wrong any of them if you make the right choice for your riding. I think the lesson is that anything lighterweight is going to break easier and you may be getting less protection than you are thinking you are getting. More durable material in your lid means more weight which means more protection.

There should be a review video with a bowling ball in all DH rated helmets swinging into a rock. Then everyone can see the impact results.


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## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

So, is the Leatt DBX 4.0 the lightweight full face “Enduro” helmet that we all should be riding now?


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

127.0.0.1 said:


> it just appears to be a lightweight foam helmet
> as others said, get a real moto helmet or dh rated one
> 
> this dude crashed, and as he destroys his proframe further by throwing it around, you can see it is not very substantial structure
> ...


Unlike some companies like Bell (in some of their models), it would appear the same external shell size is used for more than one helmet fit size. You can see in this helmet the EPS foam and the pads are both fairly thin, likely due to being a large or XL sized helmet.

In my Small sized Proframe there is noticeablely thicker foam and I use the thicker pads in some areas which gives more protection.

The downside is the helmet looks quite big on my smaller head.

It is time that manufacturers provide different sized external shells to cater for each fit size, so that the level of protection is more consistent across different riders.


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## edeltoaster (Sep 5, 2018)

06HokieMTB said:


> So, is the Leatt DBX 4.0 the lightweight full face "Enduro" helmet that we all should be riding now?


That one is actually high on my list ...


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## Shadowman944 (4 mo ago)

My 16 year old son had just received his helmet and we havent hit the trails yet. He was practicing wheelies at our local mtb park the area is somewhat compact dirt. Fell back hard on his back and head. He got up and was dazed. When I checked him for further injuries he was some slight scrapes on his elbows, But was ok. As for the helmet the back of helmet had cracked from cente rear of helmet to top almost reaching top center of helmet. I did call fox they just said send photos and the will decide what happened via email. Never heard back from them. So damage was on a fall with brand new helmet that never saw a single trail ride. Cracked on wheelie practing in the dirt. Just imaging taking a full drop from one of your fav jumps. Helmets good as long as you dont land on your head impact the helmet in any way. My giro flint has taked multiple crashed that were bad and other than scratches then helmets in one peice and Ive had it for over 10 years. Light isnt better. Go with a more structural safe helmet thats breathable. Not a foam float noodle molded into a helmet.


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## Muddy-Runs (Sep 14, 2018)

Shadowman944 said:


> My 16 year old son had just received his helmet and we havent hit the trails yet. He was practicing wheelies at our local mtb park the area is somewhat compact dirt. Fell back hard on his back and head. He got up and was dazed. When I checked him for further injuries he was some slight scrapes on his elbows, But was ok. As for the helmet the back of helmet had cracked from cente rear of helmet to top almost reaching top center of helmet. I did call fox they just said send photos and the will decide what happened via email. Never heard back from them. So damage was on a fall with brand new helmet that never saw a single trail ride. Cracked on wheelie practing in the dirt. Just imaging taking a full drop from one of your fav jumps. Helmets good as long as you dont land on your head impact the helmet in any way. My giro flint has taked multiple crashed that were bad and other than scratches then helmets in one peice and Ive had it for over 10 years. Light isnt better. Go with a more structural safe helmet thats breathable. Not a foam float noodle molded into a helmet.


Even though its annoying coz its a brand new helmet that never saw trail riding, it did the job and saved your son from serious injury, and thats the most important.

Ps, can you post pics of the damaged helmet?


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## john.ecc (8 mo ago)

Shadowman944 said:


> My 16 year old son had just received his helmet and we havent hit the trails yet. He was practicing wheelies at our local mtb park the area is somewhat compact dirt. Fell back hard on his back and head. He got up and was dazed. When I checked him for further injuries he was some slight scrapes on his elbows, But was ok. As for the helmet the back of helmet had cracked from cente rear of helmet to top almost reaching top center of helmet. I did call fox they just said send photos and the will decide what happened via email. Never heard back from them. So damage was on a fall with brand new helmet that never saw a single trail ride. Cracked on wheelie practing in the dirt. Just imaging taking a full drop from one of your fav jumps. Helmets good as long as you dont land on your head impact the helmet in any way. My giro flint has taked multiple crashed that were bad and other than scratches then helmets in one peice and Ive had it for over 10 years. Light isnt better. Go with a more structural safe helmet thats breathable. Not a foam float noodle molded into a helmet.


Buy POC. They take multiple impacts as part of the design and don't just fall apart.


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## Danhikeski (Jun 30, 2021)

Just like my motorcycle, if my helmet takes an impact, I’m probably replacing it. My head is worth it. Yours should be too. 
Similar to a Carbon frame, you don’t know what damage is not visible/under padding or fabric. At least a good go through if it was light. Looking at my helmet, (not the one in questioned in this thread), looks to have taken some damage, but I don’t remember ever a hit in those spots. I’m seriously considering replacing it, it’s about a year old.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Was there a head injury? If not the helmet probably did its job.


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