# New Build - 2015 S-Works Stumpjumper HT + XTR Di2



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

It's getting cold again, and a season of injuries (ankle, elbow, knee, general brain damage) tells me to shut it down early anyway. I found a new 2015 frame, so I'll move most of my existing build to it, plus I'll experiment with XTR Di2. I don't have any parts yet, but here are some of the things I'm planning on/thinking about for the build:

FRAME

142 on the rear should be more rigid, and thru axles just tighten up more consistently than the QR on the 2013 frame. 
Old frame (2013 Stumpy) was 1180g. New one will be heavier. 
New frame supports 160mm rotors natively (no adapter). I was fine with 140 on the other bike. 
I'm mixed on the internal cable routing on the new frame. Cleaner? Yes. Pain in the ass? Yes. 

However, that last point re internal routing really got me thinking about Di2. The frame seems like a decent candidate. I'm not interested in the display (only battery level is relevant - more on this later), so I'll see if I can hide 100% of the wiring.

XTR Di2


I like the idea of no more physical adjustments required.
I hate the idea of no more physical adjustments available.
I like the idea of a 64g shifter. (Mechanical M9000 is 118g.)
I dislike the idea of a 54g net increase from the battery.
I hate the idea of a $500 derailleur hanging off the end of my bike.

Will it shift better than existing? I hope so, but there's no way to know without trying it.

Stay tuned.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Awesome!

The internal wires and hoses may be a pain in the beginning. Once done, you shouldn't have to touch it anymore. Aesthetically it's much cleaner. When you get used to it...the external cables and guides will start to look clunky.

I think Shimano has the bar and stem that runs the wires inside. Curious to see how you go about that. 

When the SRAM eTap (eventually) comes out...there will be no wires.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Brilliant dude  !!! Can't wait to see it . Regarding Di2 I honestly cannot see how it benefits over mechanical . Okay so you don't have cables (as in inner cables) and you get a more precise shift but then you have the electrical wires exposed in a crash and the battery that needs juice in order for you to shift . One thing I love about it is it looks cleaner and it can be set to auto shift (i think you need to hook up a cadence sensor for this) . I think in the future MTBs will look like motocross bikes with electrical shifting, electrical forks, electrical rear shocks and electrical power meters . They won't be true mechanical machines anymore . However doing what I do I always love new tech . Can you post a pic of the frame - also one point that if it's carbon then you could sand it right down and carbon polish it which will save about 60-80grams in weight (possibly more depending on the thickness of the clearcoat and number of decals) .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

RS VR6 said:


> Awesome!
> 
> The internal wires and hoses may be a pain in the beginning. Once done, you shouldn't have to touch it anymore. Aesthetically it's much cleaner. When you get used to it...the external cables and guides will start to look clunky.
> 
> ...


No wires but you'll need extra batteries for both the shifter and derailleur .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks for the encouragement!

I would ideally sand down the decals, but I sell my frames almost yearly. (I have a mint 2013 S-Works Stumpjumper set to appear on Pinkbike BTW.) If I sand off the decals, I sand off $700-1000 of value. Like it or not, the sanding costs more than any $/gm we've documented here.

As for batteries, just one (in the seatpost/seattube), is apparently enough - charging once per month. That said, there is still a workaround to keep things entirely stealth. I'll reveal that (or reveal that it doesn't work at all) shortly - once I get the stuff.

Cheers guys - thanks for the input!


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

karimian5 said:


> No wires but you'll need extra batteries for both the shifter and derailleur .


SRAM already has that figured out. They've been testing the road versions on their pro teams for the past couple years now. It'll hit the market early next year. I played with it at Interbike this year and it was glorious. Eventually it'll head over to mountain. When it does...with a 1x...it'll just be a shifter and derailleur. No separate battery, junction boxes, control module, wires, etc.

The road version is two shifters, front and rear derailleurs...that it. Four pieces.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

Looking forward to following this build. You've given me some good ideas about weight saving in the past - though I'm way off the figures you've acheived, I've managed to get my race duelly down to a respectable weight (though not quite worthy of this forum)

I'm intrigued about your loyalty to the big S brand, when you could save +300g by looking at other brands, on frames that would handle equally as well as the Sworks?


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

xcbarny said:


> Looking forward to following this build. You've given me some good ideas about weight saving in the past - though I'm way off the figures you've acheived, I've managed to get my race duelly down to a respectable weight (though not quite worthy of this forum)
> 
> I'm intrigued about your loyalty to the big S brand, when you could save +300g by looking at other brands, on frames that would handle equally as well as the Sworks?


Don't say that dude . I'm sure your bike is of value here . Post it .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

phlegm said:


> Thanks for the encouragement!
> 
> I would ideally sand down the decals, but I sell my frames almost yearly. (I have a mint 2013 S-Works Stumpjumper set to appear on Pinkbike BTW.) If I sand off the decals, I sand off $700-1000 of value. Like it or not, the sanding costs more than any $/gm we've documented here.
> 
> ...


Where there's a will there's a way - don't know any Williams !!!

The two main points on the Di2 as far as I know are the battery and junction box . The battery I would mount in the steerer to be as close to the junction box as possible and reduce the length of the wires (some weight saving there) . Then the junction box I guess could go inside the stem with a small hole drilled either in the steerer to connect the two (a bit dodgy that one) or a hole drilled through the stem with the wires coming through the top cap (hollow bolt needed here - more weight saving) . Again just throwing some ideas here .


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

Ha, maybe 1 day when I have time to get pics. I'm at 10.5kg for a Duelly 29er. Would like to get it under 10kg but hard to justify the cost to the financial controller.

I'm sacrificing around 300g by having electronic suspension, and another 250g by using Chris king hubs.

Sorry for the thread hijack phlegm.


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

I too jumped Di2 wagon but for a CX lefty build with 10-42 cassette. I got everything but RD where I'm thinking of modified 6870 or just plain 9050. 

Good luck with the build, I'm looking forward for you extensive write-ups


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

xcbarny said:


> ...
> 
> I'm intrigued about your loyalty to the big S brand, when you could save +300g by looking at other brands, on frames that would handle equally as well as the Sworks?


I was actually looking at several frames, and almost bought a Niner Air 9 RDO. It is probably lighter by > 300g, but I couldn't find one. (Niner prevents online shipping to Canada, and Canadian dealers priced it higher than the S-Works I wound up with.)

Aside from that, by sticking with a given brand I usually know what I'm working with, and I know the geos will work for me. (Although some minor geo changes from 2013 to 2015.)

Lastly I've found that I can sell old Spesh frames pretty quickly. I think the brand recognition helps.

Fair point though - at least 3 other great frames out there for the build. Probably more.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

karimian5 said:


> Where there's a will there's a way - don't know any Williams !!!
> 
> The two main points on the Di2 as far as I know are the battery and junction box . The battery I would mount in the steerer to be as close to the junction box as possible and reduce the length of the wires (some weight saving there) . Then the junction box I guess could go inside the stem with a small hole drilled either in the steerer to connect the two (a bit dodgy that one) or a hole drilled through the stem with the wires coming through the top cap (hollow bolt needed here - more weight saving) . Again just throwing some ideas here .


I've agonized over setup combinations for 3 weeks now. I have the parts en route to me, but did not buy the e-tubes yet (Shimano's Di2 cables) because I still need to measure and see where I can fit stuff.

BTW, by "stealth", I mean that I want it to look like a regular mechanical shifting bike. Hoses and e-tubes are seen briefly as they enter the frame, but no other random e-tube runs or junction boxes should be visible. This is a bit of a challenge because Shimano intends for either the display, or junction "A" to be external.

As for battery location, the steerer does not work without a new stem. It does effectively eliminate one e-tube run, but I'm planning on the seatpost at this point.

I anticipate a fair amount of frustration as I actually attempt it.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Are you going 1 x 11? This is what I'm waiting to see. I want to do the Di2 with the medium cage RD, no display and either the water bottle mount battery or seat tube battery. My frame does not have internal cable provisions. 

A co-worker who is a staunch roadie switched from cable to electric Campy stuff about a year ago and absolutely swears by it. He says shifts are perfect every time. No thinking about anything. No edging the shifter an extra mm or so for the chain to climb onto the next bigger ring. It just plain works perfectly every single time. 

I was always a SRAM guy and in fact have been holding back to the old school X0 twist shifters from pre-2011 which have been converted to 10speed shifting. This XTR Di2 stuff might be enough for me to consider the jump to 11speed and the big S.

And phlegm in future if you are contemplating something like that Niner frame that can't be had through a Canadian source for a reasonable price, I live literally 3kms from the Can/US border and about 80% of what I purchase comes from the US. I can "acquire" the parts for you and ship from Vancouver to you.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

If there is a way for the derailleur or a control box to be plugged into a computer to adjust gearing and to allow it to be used with a 9spd/10spd then I'll go for it . I'm saving up for the Acros hydraulic system at the moment because of this .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

BlownCivic said:


> ...
> 
> And phlegm in future if you are contemplating something like that Niner frame that can't be had through a Canadian source for a reasonable price, I live literally 3kms from the Can/US border and about 80% of what I purchase comes from the US. I can "acquire" the parts for you and ship from Vancouver to you.


I appreciate the offer. Deals aren't nearly as good given the poor exchange, but I like the convenience of purchasing online.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm surprised the Rocky Mountain Vertex isn't on your radar, or maybe they're too common there?

A few local xc racers ride em with great success. My friend had one and said it was the best handling bike he'd ridden.

I think the frame is sub 1000g


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

xcbarny said:


> I'm surprised the Rocky Mountain Vertex isn't on your radar, or maybe they're too common there?
> 
> A few local xc racers ride em with great success. My friend had one and said it was the best handling bike he'd ridden.
> 
> I think the frame is sub 1000g


Yep, 1050g, size L to be exact in the flagship. The BB92 is problematic for my cranks (would need a 5mm Hirth extension), and would require me to ditch my new Chris King BB.

Great frame though, for sure.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Nooooooo stick to Spesh  !!! Don't let these demons take you away from Specialized . Only kidding !!!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

phlegm said:


> I was actually looking at several frames, and almost bought a Niner Air 9 RDO. It is probably lighter by > 300g, but I couldn't find one. (Niner prevents online shipping to Canada, and Canadian dealers priced it higher than the S-Works I wound up with.)
> 
> Aside from that, by sticking with a given brand I usually know what I'm working with, and I know the geos will work for me. (Although some minor geo changes from 2013 to 2015.)
> 
> ...


BTW, I posted this in the Niner section, but thought I'd cross-post here given the WW nature of the frame. While deciding on frames, and looking at the Niner Air 9 RDO, I found that Colorado Cyclist was offering it for $700 off. Unfortunately they only have a Medium left, and they won't ship to Canada anyway.

However, if anyone is interested, it still seems available:
http://forums.mtbr.com/niner-bikes/2015-air-9-rdo-carbo-frame-$700-off-992275.html#post12270081


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## stew325 (Jan 3, 2011)

Subscribed. Really liked your last build. Looking forward to this one.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Phlegm do you have a pic of the frame - I want to see it .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

stew325 said:


> Subscribed. Really liked your last build. Looking forward to this one.


Thanks Stew, appreciate it.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

karimian5 said:


> Phlegm do you have a pic of the frame - I want to see it .


It is this one here:


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Nice :thumbsup: Hopefully yours will have more upgraded parts


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'm not overly concerned with the colour scheme. I'd say it has a hint of vintage 80s Sun Ice ski jacket to it:


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

IMO, the Stumpjumper has nicer lines compared to the Air 9. Never got into the rounded look of the Air 9.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Ha ha great pic !!!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

RS VR6 said:


> IMO, the Stumpjumper has nicer lines compared to the Air 9. Never got into the rounded look of the Air 9.


Fair point, but it is surprisingly light. And for $1300 it would have been a steal - if only I was a M frame size. Damn you hormone-injected milk!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Early Guestimate at Weights*

At this point, I thought I'd share some of the weight expectations with Di2. I'll provide plenty of actual scale shots, but here's the rundown with the sources I have for now:

XTR Di2 Shifter: 64g (claimed) 
XTR M9000 Shifter (rear, I-spec II, no cable): 106g (actual) 
*Build Total: -54g*

XTR Di2 RD (GS): 289g (claimed) 
XTR M9000 RD (GS): 222g (actual) 
*Build Total: +13g*

XTR Di2 Internal Battery: 58g (claimed)
XTR Mech: N/A 
*Build Total: +71g*

XTR Di2 EW-90 Junction "A" (3 port): 10g (claimed)
XTR Mech: N/A
*Build Total: +81g*

+ eTube weights (the wires connecting it all up)
- cable and housing weights (old mech cable)

The "eTubes" seem rather thin, so I'm hoping they don't add too much more. Would be nice to keep the entire Di2 weight hit to < 100g. We'll see once I get the stuff, and plan out the actual installation.

The rest of these weights don't apply to my build, but if you are currently running a 2X11 XTR setup, you can see how Di2 actually winds up being lighter than its mechanical equivalent:

XTR Di2 FD: 128g (claimed)
XTR M9000 FD: 135g (claimed)
*2X11 Built Total: +74g*

XTR Di2 Shifter (Front): N/A
XTR M9000 Shifter (Front, no I-Spec, with cable): 106g (claimed)
*2X11 Build Total: -32g*

The reason this is lighter, is that with its Synchro Shift mode, you can control 2X11 (or 3X11) gearing with a single shifter on the right side. (Also, the Di2 FD is actually a wee bit lighter - interesting.) That's pretty sweet, but doesn't apply to my build.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I've always wondered why companies introduced 10/11 spd I have 10spd on my commuters and 9 spd on my semi race bike . Seriously don't need the extra sprockets (or weight) . Same goes for those ridiculous 42t sprockets . More strain on the derailleur and is seriously not needed . Again my opinion .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

It depends on the terrain you ride, and fitness level. I was actually fine with 1X10, but after moving to 1X11 started to use that extra granny. As I mentioned before, Shimano made me weaker.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

That is exactly it (I just didn't want to be insulting to anyone) . I honestly think with all the tech going into forks and all these extra gears people are losing skill level and strength . Don't get me wrong I am all for tech and the more the better but the unfortunate consequence is what i mentioned earlier .


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## Back2MTB (Jun 4, 2014)

30/40 is big enough for anything. Can go 1x that way and save a bunch of weight


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## nickcube (Jul 25, 2012)

Would you go to the XX1 cassette to offset some of that weight?


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I think the ultimate weight reduction would be the Recon alloy cassette . The downside to it is of course durability but you can always change it when racing but keep it on for the scales  !!!

If you see on my bike i have the KCNC alloy/scandium/titanium cassette and only a few little chips in the alloy teeth are visible . Has held up pretty darn well . To be fair though I am always in the high gears so rarely use the larger sprockets but still not bad going for a 148gram cassette .


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## nickcube (Jul 25, 2012)

Yeah I guess, but phlegm I know would want some practicality in the build too, what's the shifting quality like on the KCNC?


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

If I'm honest not as good as the XTR I have (or even the XT for that matter) . There is a split second delay but not that much to cause a catastrophic reduction in performance . I just have to learn to shift that little bit earlier .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Come to think of it that could be down to my derailleur . Haven't really bothered to look at fixing it as I am used to it now .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

nickcube said:


> Would you go to the XX1 cassette to offset some of that weight?


That's a good point. The XTR cassette is heavier than XX1, and Di2 works fine with other cassettes. It's something to think about for sure.


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm running X01 with XTR and it's working as expected. The only problem is XD driver where in my case I had to completely change hub. For your Torch XD body should be around $90  Or you could go with lighter hub and lose 50g there


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks for confirming it works. Always good to double-check.

Actually, I'm running Roval Control SL wheels now, with DT240 internals. XD driver is about the same price, and by all accounts it should be lighter. I'm definitely considering it.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

If you're going for a light bike with XTR Di2 you can save some weight by using custom parts.

You can use your own internal battery instead of the Shimano internal battery. That weighs around 25g:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84623

For the shifting the XTR thunderbolt shifter is quite bulky too. You can use the Dura Ace sprint shifter remote buttons, one on each grip instead. They weigh 6g per pair.

http://www.bike24.com/p248407.html

For fitting these you'd cut holes in your handlebar grips so they poke through exactly where you want them.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Great to hear from you WR! I'm always open to ideas on Di2, and your great insight in general, however it is an absolute minefield of compatibility.

I'll admit that I'm a bit afraid of crafting my own battery pack (if I do it wrong, do I fry the system?), but I believe modern Di2 batteries (the cited article was ca. 2011) also have firmware. I'm not sure how you can get around that with a DIY battery currently. (?)

I love your idea re the sprint shifters, and had looked into it myself. The default Di2 XTR shifter has springs to mimic mechanical button pushes, so if you wanted lower weight, or wanted super-light button presses the sprint shifters seem perfect. I did wonder though if it would be too easy to accidentally shift on a bump, depending on how they were mounted.

However, those shifters have a unique connector, so they don't work with standard e-Tube ports:









There are tons more of these pitfalls. I was about to order this EW67 "A" junction. It is tiny, can could be easily buried in the frame, however it is no longer compatible:









On top of that, Shimano hasn't designed the XTR version to be completely stealth, so that means either the display or a junction "A" would be outside the frame. I believe I have a workaround for that, but it could wind up being another incompatibility.


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

I'll be doing what WR linked. Not only for weight reason, but to lower the cost and to have a more durable battery.

Emphasis on lowering the cost. I thought I was done by buying R785 (shifters+brakes) and M9050 RD, but then there's battery, battery charger, junction box, cables etc it turns out to be more than $300 just to connect two parts.

The only thing for me to decide is to either get SM-EW90-A or SC-M9050. Not that I'd ever look at display but it might look cleaner. This is my inspiration for the build.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

diskox said:


> I'll be doing what WR linked. Not only for weight reason, but to lower the cost and to have a more durable battery.
> 
> Emphasis on lowering the cost. I thought I was done by buying R785 (shifters+brakes) and M9050 RD, but then there's battery, battery charger, junction box, cables etc it turns out to be more than $300 just to connect two parts.
> 
> The only thing for me to decide is to either get SM-EW90-A or SC-M9050. Not that I'd ever look at display but it might look cleaner. This is my inspiration for the build.


Interesting. Maybe you can solve some of the mysteries for me:

1. Are you building your own battery? If so, is there firmware issue to get around? I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple of references to people needing battery firmware updates, and I believe I've seen in the e-Tube software that there is a separate firmware entry for it.

2. Do you have a cross bike, with the road shifters? If so, looks like the sprint shifters would absolutely work, but otherwise I'm not sure how you could implement it.

_As an aside here for those who haven't read all the documentation on XTR Di2 - and there is tons of it - each system requires a junction "A". As diskox mentions, this can either be the display, SC-M9050, or can be a dedicated junction like the SM-EW90-A:_

















I'm trying to avoid the display, not so much for the weight, but because it defeats the stealth concept, and it just doesn't add that much. I don't need an ongoing battery display, and the current gear display is of limited value to me.

My plan is to hide an SM-EW90-A in the frame somewhere. Apparently, you can then add a second EW90 temporarily for charging externally, to the rear derailleur. The button to enable adjustment mode will not work, however you can do that via the e-Tube software anyway. Advantage is a completely stealth installation, but disadvantage is that you'd have to buy a 2nd junction.

BTW, re cost savings, I recently found out that you do NOT need the dedicated PC interface box to update the system firmware, or launch the software. The charger can do that as well, and you need a charger anyway.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

I've seen a picture of at least one mountain bike with the Di2 sprint shifters as their only shifters. It probably requires changing the connectors on the shifters to ones that plug straight into the junction box, rather than into the road brake levers.

This is a detailed guide to making your own shift buttons for Di2. They start from some of the time trial shifters. This looks like it could potentially work well for a mountain bike too.

Hacking the Heck Out of My Di2 9070 ? Dino Sarti

Here is a thread about making your own shifters from scratch.

DIY Di2 sprint shifters - Weight Weenies

Long Di2 thread to look through:

Shimano Di* do and do not. | CycleChat Cycling Forum

To try and illustrate how I see the custom shift buttons being located this is a picture of a Cannondale concept bike from 2010. The tiny buttons under the grip are the Di2 shifters. I'd have one button on each grip though, rather than two so close together (eliminating the risk of accidentally shifting up when you meant to shift down or the other way round).










2010 changes to Di2 - Weight Weenies


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

That grip solution is awesome . I agree I would have one button under each grip . I also agree that the display isn't really necessary . Just adds more 'bulk' visually and you save a few grams . If I were to get the Di2 I would make all housings out of carbon . The junction box, battery (with thermal lining) and shifter clamp .


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

I'd do cateye buttons from the first link. 

As to your questions phlegm, I'd build the battery. However, in that case I'd need PCE1 which is not cheap, so I'll have to sum up the cost of both ways doing it and see which one is cheaper.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This link has a lot of detail about compatibility between different Di2 components.

http://carltonbale.com/shimano-di2-everything-you-need-to-know/

The Shimano Dura Ace Di2 SW-9071 time trial shifters look like they could be a good starting point for creating some mountain bike shifters. They have individual buttons on each end and plug straight into an e-tube junction box. You shouldn't need to do any soldering with these as the correct connection wires are fitted to the buttons already. In terms of price they're about the same as the two button time trial shifters.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-dura-ace-9070-di2-one-button-tt-bar-end-shifters/


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks for the links WR. I also love the idea of those hidden switches!

I think I have solved the sprint shifter problem though, but not in a good way, from this thread you provided.

From the diagram of the 9070 road levers in my previous post, recall the keyed e-tube connector at the bottom for the sprint shifters. It's keyed because it is an "analog" port, for lack of a better description on my part. This means that is simple switch can be used there - no firmware, or other circuitry. As confirmation, some folks in the thread have crafted their own, cheaper sprint shifters with basic switches. However, they have to connect into that specific keyed port or they won't work. (Specifically models 6870 and 9070 road levers.)

All other e-tube ports appear to expect an "intelligent", firmware-based component at some point, even the battery.

If anyone else can confirm or deny this, would be great, as there is very little MTB-based Di2 hack discussions out there. Maybe that's what we're starting here.


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## nickcube (Jul 25, 2012)

That's correct, from what I've read the shimano sprint shifter are merely switches, which is why they can be so small. They're simply an "extension", if you like, of di2 shifters. They require the di2 shifters to work, since they don't have the chips, etc. to work independently like the climber's shifter and the like


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

phlegm said:


> From the diagram of the 9070 road levers in my previous post, recall the keyed e-tube connector at the bottom for the sprint shifters. It's keyed because it is an "analog" port, for lack of a better description on my part. This means that is simple switch can be used there - no firmware, or other circuitry. As confirmation, some folks in the thread have crafted their own, cheaper sprint shifters with basic switches. However, they have to connect into that specific keyed port or they won't work. (Specifically models 6870 and 9070 road levers.)


The Shimano Dura Ace Di2 SW-9071 time trial shifters have individual buttons on each end and plug straight into an e-tube junction box. That seems like it would be a good starting point. Take all that plastic moulding off and I suspect there's just a small pcb and switch inside:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-dura-ace-9070-di2-one-button-tt-bar-end-shifters/

For compatibility between MTB XTR and road Di2 e-tube components apparently you can use any shifters you like from either group. You can't mix front and rear derailleurs however. Both front and rear derailleurs have to be either road derailleurs (eg: Dura Ace) or MTB derailleurs (XTR).

https://fairwheelbikes.com/c/shimano-di2-synchro-shift-for-road-bikes/

Here is the official Shimano compatibility chart:

http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/pdf/20140807_compatibility_chart_en.pdf


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

WR304 said:


> The Shimano Dura Ace Di2 SW-9071 time trial shifters have individual buttons on each end and plug straight into an e-tube junction box. That seems like it would be a good starting point. Take all that plastic moulding off and I suspect there's just a small pcb and switch inside:
> 
> Wiggle | Shimano Dura Ace 9070 Di2 One Button TT Bar End Shifters | Gear Levers & Shifters


Now that gets interesting. Although modifying a $275 part scares the crap out of me. That just might work. Don't you make me do something stupid every build WR? 



WR304 said:


> For compatibility between MTB XTR and road Di2 e-tube components apparently you can use any shifters you like from either group. You can't mix front and rear derailleurs however. Both front and rear derailleurs have to be either road derailleurs (eg: Dura Ace) or MTB derailleurs (XTR).
> 
> https://fairwheelbikes.com/c/shimano-di2-synchro-shift-for-road-bikes/


Yep, was aware of that, but good to get it posted in this thread. I do think you have to be aware of older road generations though.



WR304 said:


> Here is the official Shimano compatibility chart:
> 
> http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/pdf/20140807_compatibility_chart_en.pdf


I think I have this memorized by now.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

The two buttons under the grip is beyond cool.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

phlegm said:


> Now that gets interesting. Although modifying a $275 part scares the crap out of me. That just might work. Don't you make me do something stupid every build WR?


You can buy individual Shimano Ultegra R671 time trial shifters. These are the two button shifters. $112 USD. Eg:

http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Ultegra-Di2-Remote-Shifter/dp/B00J0E8RFC

If you do the modification in the Cateye button link this would be the most cost effective solution. It does involve soldering though.

http://dinosarti.com/blog/2013/5/23/hacking-the-heck-out-of-my-di2-9070

What you could do is have the internal pcb contents of the R671 shifter underneath the stem, or maybe even hidden inside the stem or frame. The limitation is that a cable has to be connected to an e-tube port. I like the internal frame idea.

You then have a soldered wire running from each terminal on the R671 out to the small shift button on each side of the handlebars.

You can get handlebars and stems that are pre-drilled to accept internal Di2 cables. They aren't superlight though.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I was just looking at the R600, but the buttons are pretty chunky. The size of the 671 you reference seems like a better candidate.

I'm not opposed to trying both buttons on the same side. Both sides is fine - and might be more intuitive, but it involves double the wiring.

I won't be exchanging my bar and stem, as I like them, and they are foolishly expensive. However, I'm not opposed to a single wire following the brake cable into the frame, much like you'd see with mechanical shifting. I just don't want to see extra cable runs.

Plenty to plan out. I get the frame in a couple of days, so that will give me a better sense of placement.

Thx for all the ideas.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Any plastic buttons that come with the stock shifters would be removed. You'd have your own fitted instead.

Slowtwitch has a large thread with lots of information in about custom shifters. One important point to remember is that any remote buttons must be waterproof, otherwise bad things will happen. The Cateye buttons are waterproof.

Post #269 in particular has a detailed build with pictures, including where he has made his own junction box as well:

DIY Ultegra Di2 TT (Page 11): Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

There are some links on the same page to someone who sells custom batteries (e-tube compatible) and also custom Di2 wiring harnesses for remote shifters.

Di2 Seat Post Battery Kit for Ultegra 6770 6870 or Dura Ace 9070 Fits 27 2 | eBay

Here's a similar modification for a time trial bike, using a Shimano Ultegra SW-600 climbing shifter ($100 USD) as the starting point to add two buttons on the end of the aero bars by adding longer cables from the climbing shifter out to the ends of the aero bars.

Ultegra Di2 Remote? - rundtramp.se


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

nickcube said:


> That's correct, from what I've read the shimano sprint shifter are merely switches, which is why they can be so small. They're simply an "extension", if you like, of di2 shifters. They require the di2 shifters to work, since they don't have the chips, etc. to work independently like the climber's shifter and the like
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ooops, missed this reply - thx Nick.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

The functions of individual buttons are customisable using the Shimano software when connected to a computer. This is a picture of the road screen from a few years ago to show the options (the best I could find). There's a MTB screen if you have mountain bike components connected.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Something I saw on Bikerumor the other week were the new Fouriers integrated Di2 stem and bars. I know you'll be keeping the MCFK bits but it's interesting to see where the holes are drilled in their carbon bars (claimed weight 169g for the 780mm width bar). The stem has an integrated headset adjuster too.

The graphics are horrendous though!

IB15: Fouriers Goes on a Bender at the Bar, Stashes Di2 out of sight, Plus Oval & N/W Rings For Shimano and SRAM!

FOURIERS :: Products


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Phlegm - maybe worth contacting Martin to see if it's okay to drill the bar . I know his bars (well all his components ) are crazy light and very high quality . The hole on Fouriers is both in the centre and near the end where there is reinforcement so should be okay on any bar IME .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Geez, modding and soldering Dura Ace Di2 parts, drilling holes in MCFK bars. You guys are full of great ideas! 

Similar to those Fouriers (but less ghastly), I've seen Pro bars and stems in most of the MTB Di2 stealth builds online. The stem is particularly cool, but is not on my radar (pic below though). My idea at this point is to run a single e-tube right next to the rear brake line which must remain anyway. I may be able to heat-shrink both together to look like a single unit. They are only exposed briefly from the bar until they enter the frame, and I'm fine with that.









I've been visualizing the Dura Ace TT shifter buttons you recommended WR304 (Shimano R671). The actual button size is great, and the buttons differ so that one should be able to tell which one by feel alone. That means I could keep both together for single-thumb use on the right side. That part is promising, and would require no modification of the buttons or soldering, and only a single e-tube. Wins all around.

However, I'm concerned about what is inside the R671. There is bound to be a PCB in there, and additional wires. If the 2 buttons are directly on a PCB, I *might* be able to integrate them into a grip. However, if the internals effectively fill the entire R671 module, that a big lump of stuff that would definitely not work. I am still angry to have seen those sprint shifters, as they would be perfect, but won't work.

The other alternative is to modify the R671 module into a pod that attaches to the bar. So keep the entire housing, but shorten it (cut off the bare metal portion), and figure out a mounting device. Still, I think the default R671 is in the 50g range, so that's a lot of modification (and water-proofing) to save a dozen or so grams.

Still love the idea of the 2 thumb buttons though.









[EDIT] As per the EV on the Shimano site, looks like the extension to fit the aero bar comes off easily. No indication of what's inside the module though:


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

phlegm said:


> Geez, modding and soldering Dura Ace Di2 parts, drilling holes in MCFK bars. You guys are full of great ideas!
> 
> [EDIT] As per the EV on the Shimano site, looks like the extension to fit the aero bar comes off easily. No indication of what's inside the module though:


Considering the long Canadian winter you'll soon be an expert at soldering!

Sorry if I've been posting lots of links without going into too much detail about the content of each one. I've been jumping around with a few different ideas too. I know what I'm thinking of but maybe haven't been making that totally clear.

Regarding the shifters there are very detailed step by step tear down pictures of both the time trial shifters and climbing shifter in the links above. You'd use the cheaper Ultegra level parts as donors. These pictures show the internal PCB and wiring that is inside the shifters underneath all the plastic (PCB dimensions of the climbing shifter are 10mm x 15mm x 25mm). This PCB would be hidden somewhere, not on your handlebar under the grips. Extension wires run from the PCB out to the actual shift buttons by your hands.










https://dinosarti.com/blog/2013/5/23/hacking-the-heck-out-of-my-di2-9070










https://www.rundtramp.se/ultegra-di2-remote/

The ebay seller link above in post #58 is to someone who makes and sells custom Di2 wiring harnesses, just what you're looking for. If you're not happy doing the soldering yourself you could consider contacting him and have the remote shifters and custom battery made to your specifications and measurements.

For a lightweight Di2 battery you would make one that has less capacity than the stock battery (which can go for months between charges). This battery with less capacity would need recharging more frequently but would also be lighter.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I should divulge that I've been researching Di2 for a month, and have a build diagram, albeit with the XTR Di2 firebolt (SW-M950) shifter. Thought I'd stick with that until you showed the slick integration of the buttons in the grip.

Some parts arrived today for the original plan: the shifter, the RD, and 2 "A" junctions. En route is an internal Di2 battery, and charger. Initially, it appeared as though 3rd party batteries would not work, as firmware was required, hence my purchase of the Shimano one. Looks like the eBay seller has gotten around this by taking an external battery mount, and moving its PCB to his self-made battery. In any event, I'm fine with the Shimano battery, and also have an internal rubber seatpost mount for it. It should be a very clean installation.

Back to the shifters - I see what you are describing. The Swedish link shows an older model (his mod is circa 2013), but the principle is the same - run extension wires from a buried module that contain small switches. I'm not against trying that, but I would need to know the attachment points. The PCB on the R600 he shows may not match the R671 I'm debating. It also means that 2 more wires would have to make their way out of the frame to the handlebars. 

I am still leaning to buying the left hand TT shifter (R671), and seeing if it can be attached as a more stealthy shifter. I also like the idea of button shifting. I'm still unsure on feasibility though.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There's an SW-R671 time trial shifter internal picture in the post above. (I edited it in later than the original post).

I've been talking about getting Di2 shifting for my next bike too (probably a Niner RKT9 RDO), along with Fox iCTD for the full ebiking experience. It all adds up pricewise though!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Ah, fantastic - I missed that "dinosarti" URL previously, and that is exactly what I need. The actual switches are much smaller than the module, which is great. I just might go with it.

Re your proposed Di2 experience, I think the suspension piece is a smart addition. My 1X doesn't add as much value IMO.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Just making note of some claimed weights so I don't lose them. Sorry for the randomness here, but I'll come back to reference these:

SW-R671 shifters (pair): 95g
Bar Fly TT Mount: 16g
DT Swiss XD Driver (142mm): 51g
DT Swiss Shimano freehub: 60g
Shimano Di2 SM-JC41 junction "B": 4g


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Frame Weight & Details*

Bearing in mind the colour scheme on this frame, please play this video in the background as you read this post:






Now that I've set the mood, let's look at the frame. The overall weight is 1310g (including all fasteners, and chainstay protector). This is noticeably heavier than the 2013 version of this frame (from my previous build) which was 1180g:









There are several reasons for this, most of which can be seen directly:

1. The move to 142 in the rear:









2. SWAT mount point (leftmost bolt):









3. Mount points for external cable routing (there are several):









4. Access door under the bottom bracket:









...and possibly other reasons I'm not aware of.

I'm pleased to see 142 at the rear, although I can't honestly say it's a stiffness thing in my case; I just like how repeatable and easy wheel swaps are with it. I'm not concerned either way with internal cable routing, but it does facilitate the Di2 portion of the build.

Some other things of note...

Specialized has moved to a rounded cage bolt head, which make them slightly lighter than previous bottle bolts (3g for the set of 4):









The single SWAT bolt is beefier @3g by itself:









The access door under the bottom bracket reveals some routing options - just enough to fit a small Di2 "B" junction:









..and finally the decidedly "unfancy" hole-in-the-frame where a front derailleur cable would come out. Looks like something I'd design, i.e. crap:









Next up: Di2 wiring diagram.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Di2 Wiring Diagram*

Here's what I plan to do with the wiring at this point:









As touched on before, I want a "stealth" installation, and by that I mean:


no display
no additional wire (etube) runs that don't look like a "normal" bike
no external junctions, batteries

In a Di2 system, you need a junction "A", which is the brains of the operation, and is typically performed by the display on a mountain setup. Thankfully you can use the road-oriented SM-EW90A instead, which also facilitates charging:








_The button underneath initiates the adjustment mode._

This junction "A" is too big to fit into the downtube side ports on the frame, and too big to fit into the door under the bottom bracket. (In fairness to Shimano, it is not meant to be used inside the frame: EXTERNAL USE ONLY, as they say on some household products.) However, it can just fit inside the seattube, which is where it appears in the diagram. The battery is mounted in the seatpost, and it in turn connects to the EW90.

Moving to the right side of the diagram, I'll be using either the TT shifters (SW-R671) as per the great recommendation by WR304. If that does not work, I'll use the original "Firebolt" shifter, SW-M9050. One of those shifters (switches really) will connect to a smaller junction "B", the SM-JC41. These things are tiny, and I'll take some pics and weights one they arrive. They are simply 4-port hubs to facilitate connections, and are designed to fit into the frame:








_This thing is tiny, and I believe it is only 4g._

The first JC41 (the "B" in the downtube) will be exactly 600mm from the shifter lever. This is because the R671 TT-style shifters have a built-in etube that is that long. If I was just using the Firebolt instead I could have avoided the junction entirely, and just used a longer etube.

On the far left we have the rear derailleur, which connects to another junction "B" underneath the bottom bracket. This second JC41 which connects everything together and fits easily in the compartment under the BB. This central placement minimizes the etube run length, and makes for a completely hidden system.

You will see a second junction "A" (EW90) at the bottom of the diagram, outside of the bike. The dotted line indicates a temporary connection, used only for charging or connecting the system to a computer. This is required because the first EW90 is buried in the seattube, and not readily accessible. Apparently, 2 EW90s can exist in the same system, based on this thread:

How to charge a completely internal DI2 Setup?: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

Ideally, if the EW90 fit in the bottom bracket area, I'd only need one.

Design note: Alternatively, I could charge the system by connecting the EW90 to the rear derailleur. This would avoid having to open the access door under the bottom bracket. However, Shimano recommends that you do not repeatedly connect & disconnect the etubes as it may affect their water-tightedness (word?). So, for this reason, I opted to charge the system via the junction B, inside the compartment.

Design note 2: Apparently the little button under the EW90 will no longer work when 2 are connected to the same system, and thus you cannot enter adjustment mode with it. I don't see this as an issue because you can also initiate this mode (which is akin to barrel adjustments on mech shifters) from the software.

We'll see how all this goes - I'm sure something will go funky.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Don't doubt yourself dude until you test it . it all looks good to me .


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

I'll be doing something similar. However, I thought there is no need to use junction B, just to connect all three wires to A. As I'm still waiting for the frame, if it turns out that junction A can not fit under the BB shell, I thought I could reverse seat-tube order, so A is on top of battery and accessible via seat-post removal?

I'm just brainstorming and may be way off the final solution.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Right, there's no technical need for a junction B in the system. In my case I need one in the downtube because of the hardwired R671 TT shifter I want to attempt, and because a junction A won't fit in the BB compartment.

If there was room, the simplest design would have the junction A in the compartment, with 3 etubes to battery, RD, and FD - would be great if that works in your new frame.

I don't want to remove my seatpost for charging, but you can certainly do that. Alternatively, you can tuck a junction A under your saddle. Easily plugs in for charging, and you can see the battery level. Not quite as stealth, but a decent option.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Before starting the task of wiring the frame up I'd first lay all the electrical Di2 parts out on a workbench, connect them together and test that they work.

I'd also do any firmware updates that are needed at the same time.

The main downside of having a stealth setup, with the SM-EW90A junction box hidden and not visible, is that the battery charge indicator light for the system is on the junction box. You won't be able to tell at a glance what the battery level is.

What you can do for this is to have a D-Fly SM-EWW01 Wireless unit inside the frame, probably connected to the SM-JC41 in the head tube. Apparently it weighs 5g.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-sm-eww01-wireless-unit-for-e-tube-di2/

This connects your XTR Di2 gears wirelessly to a Garmin Edge 520 or Edge 1000, so that battery level and gear position is displayed as a data field on the Garmin head unit. That would let you keep an eye on the battery level whilst still having a stealth setup.

I was out with the road club a few weeks ago. Two hours into the five hour ride one of the guys using Ultegra Di2 ran into issues and lost his shifting. "Oh, my Di2 battery has gone flat. I'm going home now."

One of my friends was telling me about a sportive ride that he did in a group. One of the riders in the group had his Di2 battery go flat, losing his gear shifting. He spent the rest of the ride bombing down the hills, only to then have to get off and push the bike on the uphills!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Absolutely - the first thing I'll do is a test connection, and firmware update.

The wireless piece is cool, but I don't own an Edge, and wouldn't use it for MTB to be honest. (It certainly has value for road though.) Besides, it pretty much defeats the purpose to avoid a display, only to connect a heavier "display" just for the battery level. 

I'm actually curious if even the battery level will even work on the second EW90. Given that 2 of them would be temporarily connected, some functions may not work - such as the adjustment mode button I mentioned. It may only be visible via software, which would be a bit of a pain.

I've read that you can go literally weeks on a single charge, although that would obviously be subject to usage. I'm surprised your roadie friends could run out without notice, as I believe you can display battery level via a movement of the shifter in the horns:





BTW, I have at least 2 ideas for mounting the R671 TT shifters you suggested. The first is using a TT bar clamp (same diameter as MTB grips BTW). My estimate, based on claimed weights (post #68) would be a push-button shifting solution that weighs no more than the firebolt, and probably a bit less. The 2nd idea is to reverse the I-Spec II insert in the existing brake lever. The location might just work as a mount point for a stripped down R671.

In any event, thanks for the great ideas. This is still a work in progress, so I welcome your suggestions along the way.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Never underestimate the laziness of people. These things happen!

On a road bike you would lose the front shifting well before the rear shifting packs up. There would still be enough charge for 180 emergency rear shifts to get you home. On a 1x11 mountain bike I don't think there would be any warning though. The first you would know about it is when the rear shifting stops altogether.

According to this link pressing the gear shifter will show the battery level, but that is in the form of a light displayed on the junction box.

Something that could be important on a mountain bike is that if you crash the Di2 may go into protected mode. In order to reset it and get your gears working again you have to hold the button down on the control box for five seconds until the red light flashes. If you have the junction box deep inside the frame this could potentially be a big problem.

--------------------

*Battery Flat on a Ride*
You deserve to push your bike home for being so stupid, although the system actually goes into limp home mode. First the front shifting will stop to save energy, then the rear. You should however never be in this position as there is a battery check which should be carried out after every ride. To check the battery's charge simply hold down a shift button and look at the control box LED, solid green is 100%, blinking green is 50%, solid red is 25% and blinking red means your gear selection is about to be limited shortly.

If you do drain the standard battery you will have about 180 shifts on the rear after the front shifts stop working.

Charging time for the standard battery is approximately 90 minutes so you can get a good charge in while you get dressed for your ride. You have no excuses.

*Dropped your bike and it no longer shifts? *
These systems have a protection circuit built into them so that when the derailleur gets forced in a fall no damage is done to the system. To reset the system hold the button down on the LED control box for five seconds until the red light flashes.

http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/shimano-di-do-and-do-not.112006/

---------------

Raceware Direct do a 3d printed holder that mounts under the stem for a junction box. That's a bit tidier than using rubber bands.

http://www.racewaredirect.co/shop/di2-junction-box-holder-nylon/


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

WR304 said:


> ...
> 
> Something that could be important on a mountain bike is that if you crash the Di2 may go into protected mode. In order to reset it and get your gears working again you have to hold the button down on the control box for five seconds until the red light flashes. If you have the junction box deep inside the frame this could potentially be a big problem.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, that could be a big problem. I'll have to confirm a workaround for that instance.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Looks like there is a manual way around this, but I can't find specifics. Some talk about moving the RD forward/back, left/right, but can't really confirm it. Still seems promising - I'll contact Shimano.

"In cases where the rear derailleur is pressed in by a strong impact such as when falling from the bicycle, the protection function intentionally cuts the transmission of power between the motor and the link. The rear derailleur does not operate when the protection function is operating. If this happens, pressing the mode button on the system information display or the button on junction (A) for 5 seconds or more will restore the connection between the motor and the link and the rear derailleur will start operating normally. *The connection can also be restored manually. For details, contact the distributor.*"


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

phlegm said:


> Looks like there is a manual way around this, but I can't find specifics. Some talk about moving the RD forward/back, left/right, but can't really confirm it. Still seems promising - I'll contact Shimano.


Step 1: Remove rear derailleur from frame
Step 2: Place chain on middle sprocket of cassette
Step 3: Remove links to shorten chain
Step 4: Ride bike home as singlespeed

:thumbsup:


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

...Or you could just get the display  !!!


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

So it seems the 671 Tri bar shifters can be bought individually but only the left side is easily found. Can you reprogram it to right shifting duties without a display, but by interfacing with a laptop through the A junction box? Are we just plugging a programming interface into the A junction? If we have a 3 port A junction, is it OK to unplug either the derailleur or the battery while doing the programming?


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> So it seems the 671 Tri bar shifters can be bought individually but only the left side is easily found. Can you reprogram it to right shifting duties without a display, but by interfacing with a laptop through the A junction box? Are we just plugging a programming interface into the A junction? If we have a 3 port A junction, is it OK to unplug either the derailleur or the battery while doing the programming?


The picture in post #60 shows the Shimano e-tube software gear options.

In theory each Di2 shift button can be individually programmed, so that any shift button is able to be re-configured to your choice of function.

Here are the e-tube software manuals as PDF files.

Help Manual

MTB
http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/img/help_manual_pdf/en/HM-M.2.10.0-00-EN.pdf

Road
http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/img/help_manual_pdf/en/HM-R.2.10.0-00-EN.pdf

*Edit* See my next post down. I've removed the first section as what I wrote here about connections was wrong.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

WR304 said:


> With an internal Shimano SM-BCR2 battery you connect a micro USB cable directly to the battery from your computer. The configuration is done through this USB connection. The computer USB cable will be connected to the battery, not the junction box itself. With a 3 port junction box you would have the battery, rear derailleur and shifter all attached to the junction box whilst setting the system up.


Hmmm, I think you may have a few things mixed up here, but I don't blame you given the documentation. 

The SM-BCR2 is not a battery, but rather the charger. It does indeed have a micro-USB port on it for PC interfacing. The other cable from the charger may be a proprietary connection, and it connects to a port on either the display, or a junction A for charging. The battery itself, SM-BTR2, only appears to a have a single e-tube connection on it, and thus is not charged directly. This makes sense as the battery is intended to be buried, and thus you typically wouldn't see it directly.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

You're right. I'm wrong. *Third* try.

The simple answer is that if you have a SM-EW90-A Di2 Junction A Box - E-Tube, 3 Port there are 3 e-tube connections and then a seperate charging port on the side that the BCR-2 plugs into.










The general e-tube manual has a few pages on connecting different parts together for updates with limited connections.

https://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/img/help_manual_pdf/en/HM-G.2.10.0-00-EN.pdf

There are two methods of connecting the Di2 to a computer, the BCR-2 battery charger and also the SM-PCE1 interface.

SM-PCE1

The SM-PCE1 interface has two e-tube ports, allowing you to unplug a port from the main system and insert the SM-PCE1 as an additional device in the system, the extra plug goes into the SM-PCE1 temporarily. Once finished you unplug the SM-PCE1 and connect it back up again.










The BCR-2 battery charger has a single port. Their diagram shows it being plugged into the gear display unit. It can also plug into the dedicated port on a SM-EW90-A Di2 Junction A Box if you are able to easily access it.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Re the manual reset after a crash, or getting out of "protection mode", I contacted Shimano, but they didn't seem to know.

They mentioned holding down the button for 5 secs, etc, etc, but I again asked what the procedure was they are citing on page 49 of their dealer manual. He then said, "oh, you'd just use the shifters at that point", but er, ah, the rear derailleur is effectively turned off so the shifters won't work. He stumbled a bit, then repeated the part about holding the button down. [sigh]

I'll keep searching.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Just a thought but if the derailleur has ports to allow the wires to be disconnected then surely un-plugging them and plugging them back in is the manual way to reset the derailleur .


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Talking about flat batteries.

I was out on the Tuesday road club ride today. One of the guys was riding a blinged out Colnago C60 with Campagnolo Super Record EPS electronic shifting, Campagnolo Power2Max Type S power meter etc. £10,000+ GBP bike everything top of the range. 

40 minutes into the club ride. "My gears don't work". You guessed it, the battery for his electronic gears was flat.

He was stuck in one middle gear and the big chainring for the rest of the ride.:nono:


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

phlegm said:


> "In cases where the rear derailleur is pressed in by a strong impact such as when falling from the bicycle, the protection function intentionally cuts the transmission of power between the motor and the link. The rear derailleur does not operate when the protection function is operating. If this happens, pressing the mode button on the system information display or the button on junction (A) for 5 seconds or more will restore the connection between the motor and the link and the rear derailleur will start operating normally. *The connection can also be restored manually. For details, contact the distributor.*"


To recap, I'm trying to find out how to get out of Protection Mode, in case of a crash. My attempt at a stealth build would not have any buttons exposed, and thus I was hoping the "manual mode" Shimano lists in their documentation above is feasible.

After getting some fabricated answers in 2 previous calls to Shimano, I finally reached Austin, who gave me the gist. He mentions that the "manual piece" is somewhat misleading. He said that normally, pressing and holding the button will reconnect the RD, and force it to cycle through the gears. This is partly so it can determine what gear it is in, as well as to confirm full functionality.

However, sometimes if the impact is strong enough, the RD will be physically disconnected from its motor. In such cases you must manually "squish" (his word) back onto the motor, by pushing it in. (I assume he means towards the hub, but I'm not sure.) So the "manual" piece in this case amounts to snapping it back into place, like a dislocated shoulder.

He then confirmed you'd have to re-run the button process, and have the RD cycle through the gears as you turn the cranks.

So, thanks again to Austin for confirming, although it isn't great news. That said, I always have a multi-tool on me, so I suppose I could pull out the seatpost in the event of a severe RD impact. I may however have to use a slightly longer e-tube to give enough slack for that process.

Next up: XTR Di2 weights - most of the stuff is in.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Holy Crap! ... Holy Crap! ... Holy Crap!*

Not sure if I said "Holy Crap!" enough in the post title, but Holy Crap!

Holy Crap!

Holy Crap!

Holy Crap!

Ever have a project that should be a doddle (UK term, meaning easy - just for you WR304), but turns out to be crazy hard?

That happened to me earlier today, when I foolishly decided to remove my fork's expander:









and replace it with this one from MCFK:









So yeah, I have an existing Specialized expander, which amounts to a wedge-and-sleve system. Here's my process/instructions, with my *[mental reaction]*:

1. Disassemble bike completely, as though you've purchased a new frame. *[Check!]*
2. Loosen expander bolt, which should allow the bottom wedge to move freely, and top wedge to turn freely. *[Uh, no, crap!]*
3. Mild panic. *[Check!]*
4. Loosen expander bolt a bit more. Bottom wedge may drop into steerer. * [--Clunck noise--]. [Check!]*

4. (a) Note that if bottom wedge drops into steerer, it cannot be reused. You must remove the entire expander. *[Oh, crap. ]*

5. Simply pull expander out. *[Uh, not working. Not moving, crap.]*
6. Make a custom hook tool which slides in, and you can then pull the expander out. *[Made it. Puuuullllllll! Doesn't budge!]*
7. Moderate panic. *[Check! I am an expert at panic by now!]*
8. Try to pry the top wedge out, using the (ridiculously flimsy) bits that overhang the steerer. *[Doesn't work. I'm close to damaging the carbon!]*
9. Make an assessment on how much this could cost you. Brain SID, carbon steerer? $800-1000. *[Crap!]*
10. Accept that you must drill at this point. *[WTF, did I hear "drill" from my inside voice!]*
11. Yes, although I should not be referencing myself, I said "drill" in step 10. *[No need to be snarky.]*
12. Grab typical expensive carbon tools: Dremel and hacksaw! *[Crap, this will end poorly.]*
13. Start to drill through the expander, pushing out to the side. Ignore that you are often 0.5mm away from irreversibly damaging your fork. *[--Crap pants.--]*
14. Keep drilling sideways through the expander. * [This is taking forever.]*
15. Contemplate how the divorce will go, as you tell your wife that this $30 part will destroy a $1000 fork. *[Divorce may not be that bad.]*
16. Keep drilling sideways - you should detect a loosening... *[Of my bowels?]*
17. Done - the top wedge is removed, and the sleeve and bottom wedge falls easily out. *[Wa-hooo!!!!!]*

Here's the top wedge:








Here's some metal dust:








...and here's the weight of the original Specialized expander, minus several grams of drilled weight:








..and finally the tools of a surgeon:








Up next: OK, I swear I'll weigh the XTR Di2 stuff, but this expander thing made me kinda busy.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Great work dude  !!! I thought you were from the States ha ha !!! I am actually on my fourth Dremel in two years . I replaced the carbon brushes on all of them and each time a puff of black smoke and a small spark would occur . I have literally just ordered yet another Dremel from Amazon as my present one has given up the ghost (even after replacing the brushes) . They are great to use but just cannot handle high intensity work (which is where my angle grinder comes in) .

I have three of those MCFK plugs (one damaged), two Ultrastar 2 plugs, one Ultrastar 2 plug modified (by Extralite not me) and one Ultrastar 3 plug . I have only used two of them :eekster:!!!!!!!!! I like to buy them as I always think they will be discontinued . I'm waiting for the day Martin discontinues these as well !!!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks man. I'm Canadian, so we're a mix of US and UK terms.

It was an incredibly stressful Dremel session. I'm happy now, but it could have gone pear-shaped (weird UK expressions meaning "wrong", "poorly", "badly") very easily.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

..Or tits up  . One point though . I would have just used a bolt and a pair of pliers to force the plug out . Also invest in some threaded rods as they can be useful to remove fallen steerer plugs .


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Did you try tapping down on the expander bolt to disloge the expander that had somehow "bonded" itself to the inside of the steerer?


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

phlegm said:


> Holy Crap!
> ...
> and finally the tools of a surgeon:


You didn't resort to tin snips and then gaffer tape to stick the two halves of the carbon steerer tube back together? 

That is one issue with the carbon fibre steerer and crown. As the bottom is closed off you can't just knock out the expander from underneath.

An interesting expander that I saw is this one by trickstuff. It's supposed to weigh 12g including the tension bolt and top cap.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/09/10...re-powerful-brake-levers-more-nifty-upgrades/


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

At 12 grams it certainly isn't the lightest . Also it is a plug and not a star nut (which is how it's explained in the article) . The Ultrastar 3 is less than 6grams . That with a Schmolke bolt and Bk Composites top cap comes in at around 7.8grams (I did this a while back) .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

A few responses to posts I'm too lazy to quote (sore arms from hacksawing):

-yep, Ultrastar 3 is lighter, but I got a good price on the MCFK, and ordered it the same time as a seat clamp (to be shown later) - I'm also not concerned with +/- 5g. 

-assuming you mean to crank on the bolt using the pliers as leverage, I don't believe that would work given the Spesh expander is flush with the top of the steerer and has tines that actually sit on top of it (see photo above - that's the exact one)

-yes, I did tap on the bolt, which did fully release the bottom wedge - the top remained in place

Anyway, it is out now. I'll just get angry if anyone suggests an easier method.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*XTR Di2 Weights - Part 1*

I'm still waiting on some stuff, but here's what I have for now. I have included *dimensions* on some of the internal bits because I could not find that information anywhere. Hope you find this helpful:

RD-M9050 rear derailleur @ 290g (vs 220g for mech XTR M9000):









SW-M9050 shifter @ 64g (vs 106g for mech XTR M9000 shifter w/ I-Spec II mount):









SM-BTR2 battery @ 51g (vs N/A for mech system, duh!):








*Dimensions: * 151mm long, 56mm circumference

SM-EW90-A 3-port junction "A" @ 9g (N/A for mech system):








*Dimensions:* 44mm long, 21mm wide, 17mm height (to top of mounting clamp ridge*)

*By ridge, I mean that there are 2 raised edges on this junction to allow for stem mounting hardware, i.e. clamp & strap. These ridges are fixed, so while the actual junction box is a bit tinier, if you are mounting one of these inside your frame you'll need to accommodate for 17mm in "height". (Or I suppose you could sand them down.) More detailed pic here:


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

I am a bit confused about wiring mine and would appreciate if you guys could shed some light.

I've decided to use display SC-M9050 (reason being that I can get it for the same price as junction A thus solving battery status problems) which has 3 ports.

Two cables from R785 will occupy two slots of SC-M9050, 3rd slot will have a cable going to SM-JC41 (junction B which has 2 slots on each side) where I'll connect battery and RD. Is that how it's supposed to be done or am I missing something?

Another thing, do I need that tool to connect EW-SD50 wires to everything or can it be done by hand?

Sorry for the hijacking


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

diskox said:


> I am a bit confused about wiring mine and would appreciate if you guys could shed some light.
> 
> I've decided to use display SC-M9050 (reason being that I can get it for the same price as junction A thus solving battery status problems) which has 3 ports.
> 
> ...


If you look at the second picture in post #84 that is taken from the Shimano manual and is a 1x setup. It has the parts connected in the order you describe so should work.

Apparently the Shimano e-tube TL-EW02 plastic tool may come bundled with some part of the system, so that you don't have to buy one seperately. With the road parts it might come with the shifters. Phlegm has his XTR Thunderbolt shifter so should be able to confirm if that is the case for the mountain bike parts too.

Have a look at this youtube video showing the e-tube cable being plugged and unplugged from the rear derailleur without the tool:






In this forum thread the comments are saying that the Shimano e-tube cables unplug easily enough by hand.

http://forums.cervelo.com/forums/p/12038/82259.aspx


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yes, the etube tool comes with the Thunderbolt shifter. (And the rear derailleur comes with 3 dummy plugs, and the internal battery should have one pre-installed. You want to ensure open ports are plugged, i.e. if any are open on your junctions.)

I had read that you should always use the tool for connections. Hard to know if there's a technical reason for this, of if the tool simply makes it foolproof.

This video is a great demo on making the connections:


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

Thanks WR & phlegm. 

In that video instead of SM-JC41 he used SM-BTC1 which I guess does the same job so it's possible to use either.

I don't have etube tool but I'll manage without it as it's pretty straightforward. Don't have dummy plugs either but I guess sugru can seal that one port of junction B.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*XTR Di2 Weights - Part 2*

This isn't technically XTR Di2, but Di2 nonetheless. This is targeting the hack discussed earlier.

First up is a SW-R671 TT shifter @ 50g. These are sold out everywhere, but I found a complete set (L & R) in Japan for barely more than just one side in North America - shipped quickly too:









Next is what I may end up using. This is the housing with buttons, minus the aero bar mount piece. Down to 37g:









Last is the actual switch. I'm still trying to figure out if I can bury this in the grip, and only have a couple of larger buttons protrude. Would be great, as this bit is only 8g:









Notes: The etube is fixed, and 600mm in all cases. The buttons have a distinctive click to them - not nearly as much as the firebolt (or mechanical XTR), but I don't think so light as to cause errant shifts. The plastic housing is not watertight, but it appears that the core switch (the 8g bit in the last photo) is.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

So does anyone see an issue with me using an older Dura Ace Di2 brick battery for electronics to support a home made battery like was shown in one of the earlier threads linked above? I've bought things form Tenergy before and they've always been great to deal with. All I really need are the electronics that interface the battery with the XTR Di2 system and I see an older Dura Ace battery as the cheapest way of acquiring this. I have no intentions of using the mounting or case. I'll simply be using the circuit board and wiring to hide my home made battery inside the seat tube.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

diskox said:


> ...
> 
> I don't have etube tool but I'll manage without it as it's pretty straightforward. Don't have dummy plugs either but I guess sugru can seal that one port of junction B.





BlownCivic said:


> So does anyone see an issue with me using an older Dura Ace Di2 brick battery for electronics to support a home made battery like was shown in one of the earlier threads linked above?...


I'm going to quote a good resource that may answer both of your questions:
CarltonBale.com » Shimano Ultegra and Dura-Ace Di2 Electronic Shifting ? Everything You Need to Know


@diskox - In the article, he says it is difficult to connect the etube wires without tools. For $2-3, I don't think it is worth risking by hand:
_"Shimano TL-EW02 Ultegra DI2 E-Tube Tool: This tool is used to connect and disconnect the Etube wires. They are extremely difficult to connect/disconnect by hand, and pliers or other tools can damage the wires."_

Also, the dummy plugs are $1-2 each. Using a sealant could be a real problem if you wanted to change something.

@BlownCivic - Compatibility is so tricky, but the gist is that anything older (like the 5-wire system) is incompatible with newer stuff. I'm not sure what battery you mean, but if it has the electronics from the first gen Di2, then my guess is incompatible:
_
"Nothing from the first generation (5-conductor) Dura-Ace Di2 7970 system is compatible with any other system. It was replaced by the (2-conductor) E-tube systems. No parts are interoperable between them."_


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

It's going to be bloody hard to get the buttons under the grip looking at the size of the housing . If you can remove the housing and just have the buttons stand alone then you might be able to squeeze it under the grip . The ESI grips are a PITA to fit and these definitely won't go under them . I think if you get the Extralite foam grips (i have 3 pairs and they are so damn light) then you can get the buttons underneath minus the housing .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Random Weights*

A few more random weights as stuff arrives:

MCFK 31.8 "sub 5" seatpost clamp @ 6g (liars!):









Extralite Hypergrips @ 7g (claimed 7.8g):









Hypergrips with [email protected] 12g (claimed 11.8g):









Extralite Black Lock, for Specialized X-12 (142 rear) @ 29g (claimed 29.1g):









Extralite Black Lock, for Rockshox (15mm front) @ 27g (claimed 26.7g):









e-Tubes are in, so the Di2 battery is finally charging.

Next up: 

Di2 Firware update
Misc eTube Project (software) screenshots
Various eTube length weights
More random weights (XO1 cassette, XD driver, etc.)


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Ha ha !!! I know I was surprised when I weighed mine . All three of my MCFK seatclamps are over 5grams . The only genuine weight was my two BTP clamps . I have contacted Tune as there is a second version of the Wurger Skyline going to be available and they told me early December so I have pre-ordered it . It is supposed to be lighter than 5 grams !!! I think it will be made by Bernard again of BTP :

Neu: Würger Skyline - tune - Leichte Parts, hubs born in the black forest - built to enjoy nature

On another note I have just ordered a Rock Shox WC carbon fork . Is it any good compared to the likes of DT Swiss/Manitou/Magura (they were my other options) ?!!! I still have time to cancel (i hope) . Any help would be great Phlegm  !!!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

karimian5 said:


> ...
> 
> On another note I have just ordered a Rock Shox WC carbon fork . Is it any good compared to the likes of DT Swiss/Manitou/Magura (they were my other options) ?!!! I still have time to cancel (i hope) . Any help would be great Phlegm  !!!


All those makes are solid, so you probably can't go too wrong. I've owned Magura (are they still doing the dual arch?) and it was great, and I've owned several SIDs which have been great too, and a Reba (forget the exact model) and it was so-so. I think you'll be pleased.

Given your WW fanaticism, I'm suprised you didn't go for the Lauf:
Lauf Forks | Lauf Forks - The lightest suspension forks on the market


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Oh that thing is uuuuuugly !!! Not only that but with leaf spring suspension it has literally no adjustments or compression/rebound . What I'm planning to do with the fork is remove a few knobs/dials and use them as a mould and make carbon versions . I think that Shift Up do some aftermarket parts for it to .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Ah just discovered the ShiftUp ultralight cartridge replaces the Motion control system completely with its own . I thought it would replicate it . what the do sell is a lightweight alloy cap that believe it or not reduces the weight of the fork by 65grams so i have ordered that instead . Don't want to start messing with the internals .


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## doccoraje (Jan 12, 2004)

phlegm said:


> Given your WW fanaticism, I'm suprised you didn't go for the Lauf: Lauf Forks | Lauf Forks - The lightest suspension forks on the market


Or this one that is not as "ugly" Products - GERMAN ANSWER bike technologies GmbH & Co. KG


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Yup seen those . Also the one sided suspension fork they make (basically a front 4 bar linkage with an air shock) . i like the reputation of Rockshox and feel safer with that . Also the ShiftUp will bring the fork below 1400grams .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Di2 Weights - Part 2*

Here are some more Di2 weighs...

Di2 Dummy plugs. 7 of them made my scale fluctuate between 0-2g, so they aren't worth worrying about. At most you'd have 2 in any given junction:









Here's a shot of the SM-JC41 internal junction. It is indeed 4g as seen on the Interwebs, and with 2 dummy plugs it is still effectively 4g:
















Here are some weights for various e-Tube wire lengths...

First of the 600mm length @ 7g:









Then a 500g strand @6g:









A 250mm segment @ 3g:









...and finally the smallest size available, 150mm @ 2g:









Realizing the limitations of my scale, I can offer a formula for _approximating _the weight of any given Di2 etube length:

*g = (X / 100) + 1*

where "g" is the weight in grams of the wire, and "X" is the length of the wire in mm.

Even so, you an see that the etubes are pretty light, so I can't see them as being a dealbreaker in any WW build.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

You will save most weight in the wiring/cables (like a traditional drivetrain) . If you can get the actual derailleur's weight lower and perhaps the shifter then you're onto a winner .


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

If I were to run the A junction on the bottom of my stem, is there an E tube long enough to reach the rear derailleur in 1 segment? I foresee the A junction on the stem, the right shifter on the bar, the battery in the seat tube and the rear derailleur in it's respective home.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

The etubes range from 150mm to 1400mm, which might not be enough. If not, you'll need to use a junction "B" (SM-JC41) and a second etube.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Test Layout & e-Tube Project (Software) Screenshots*

The next step involved laying out and connecting all of the bits according to the plan.

As you can see here, I simply laid things out on a table, and connected all the bits:









I then connected the battery charger (SM-BCR2), and in turn connected that to a PC running the Shimano e-Tube Project software. It's all very intuitive, but here are a selection of screenshots that may be of interest...

First of, after selecting "MTB" from the list of bike types, it detects and updates a whole bunch of components that I don't recognize - none of the names match Di2 components:








_ Do you know what a "DU-E6010" is? Neither do I._

It then detects and updates the firmware for the battery (SM-BTR2), which is the reason why a generic battery is hit and miss - even the battery has firmware:















_ The term "written" is used by Shimano, but they probably mean "latest"._

At first I was a bit afraid that nothing else was found, but you have to initiate a Connection Test on the main screen and it will (should) find your components. In my case I have the minimum 4 items: battery, junction "A", rear derailleur, front shifter:








_ At the right of the screenshot you can see a layout tree that ensures you meet component requirements._

Once you've done the Connection Test, it will then start to check and update the firmware for remaining components:








_ This process repeats for each component - in this screenshot the rear derailleur firmware is targeted._

..and ultimately all component firmware is updated:








_ Note here that "dumb" junctions, such as the SM-JC41 "B" junctions are not seen by the system._

Once connected, I believe the next relevant thing for most MTB users would be the button assignments. You can control which button does Up/Down for shifting, and for some reason I've seen a few references to things being "reversed" for XTR Di2 over what we'd normally expect. (?) In any event, you can easily change shifter button assignments:








_ Notice that the e-Tube software correctly identifies that I've connected an aerobar/TT shifter and has an image for it._

This last shot is just for fun, because I plan to use a second "A" junction for charging purposes. (The original "A" junction is buried in the seattube and not accessible. I aim to temporarily connect a second one for charging.) Upon connecting it, and running the e-Tube Project software, it scolds me for having 2 of them:








_ So strict Shimano, so strict!_

So, after going through this, here are some notes on compatibility, etc. If you are planning an XTR Di2 build, stealth or otherwise, it may be worth reviewing:


Although you can get away without an e-Tube connecting tool ($3 item), I'd recommend it as it effectively prevents against accidental damage/incorrect connections. 
Don't forget to install the rubber boot on the rear derailleur connection prior to installing the e-Tube. 
You do NOT need to purchase the PC linkage device (SM-PCE1) as the SM-BCR2 charger can do most* things. 
The one thing* that you cannot do in the eTube software with just the SM-BCR2 is initiate "Error Checking" from the menu. I'm not sure what that does however. 

And finally some notes specific to my build that may be helpful to others as well:

The Ultegra SW-R671 aerobar/TT shifters absolutely work with XTR Di2! 
You can connect a second "A" junction (SM-EW90-A) temporarily for charging, but it will not work at all with the system. You are effectively just connecting a charging port. 
I will not be able to see the battery level LED on the buried "A" junction, but the battery charger does indicate if the battery needs charging. (Light is out when charge complete/full.) 
I may be at risk if the system enters Protection Mode after a crash, as you exit this via a button on the buried "A" junction. However I have added a longer e-Tube wire for it, so I can remove the seatpost if need be. 

Next up: the actual build in the frame.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Excellent post. Thanks so much for the amount of detail.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Thanks a million for all the info! Makes my job so much easier.

Another question for anyone: is the battery electronics/firmware contained in the actuall battery pack or in the battery pack holder?

ie - here:









or here:


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'm only using the internal battery, SM-BTR2, so it must be self-contained.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I would have thought it was in the battery . LiPo batteries already have circuits in them to protect from overcharging, internal damage or a blowout .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

LiPo? You must also spend time with remote controlled vehicles.

These batteries are lithium ion. LiPo is too risky for Shimano I suspect.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Actually I have two Ebikes (one folding and one MTB which I will be posting the MTB one soon as i got it from 26KG to 10.5kg) and they both have LiPo batteries . Very clever batteries but foooking expensive .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

If it's okay to post an electric MTB that is


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

TigWorld said:


> Excellent post. Thanks so much for the amount of detail.





BlownCivic said:


> Thanks a million for all the info! Makes my job so much easier.


Thanks for the kinds words. You guys have been a great help to me as well, so I appreciate the input.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

karimian5 said:


> If it's okay to post an electric MTB that is


No, it's not OK. We shall never discuss this again.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Ah okay man . 

If you head over to my G+ page you can check it out if you like .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Di2 Build - Part 1*

Finally onto the actual build. It's still in progress, but here's what I have thus far...

First was a test of the "B" junction, which is meant to sit in the frame. It is tiny, and I'm THANKFUL to see that it just barely fits into the internal cable opening in my downtube:








_ Apologies for not getting a manicure for you guys._

Next up is the "Deda Elementi" battery holder. I sure as heck don't use a Deda Elementi seatpost, but my guess was that their 27.2mm seatpost was the same diameter as my 27.2mm seatpost. I was MOSTLY correct. In any event, here's the listing for it on CRC as a reference:
Deda Elementi Deda Di2 Battery Holder | Chain Reaction Cycles

It is fairly light too @ 7g:








_ Deda Elementi ...Deda Elementi ...Deda Elementi ...say it with me._

...and there's also something similar from Ritchey:
Ritchey Di2 Seatpost Battery Mount | Chain Reaction Cycles

When I said I was MOSTLY correct above, it should be noted that light, boutique carbon seatposts, like my MCFK, have a reinforced (aka "thicker") area for clamping, but other areas are thinner. I noticed that the Deda Elementi - I just like typing that - wasn't super-tight. It's because the bottom portion of my seatpost is slightly thinner to save weight. However, I simply had to push the battery a bit more into the the seatpost, and it holds perfectly. Also, I can slide it out if need be.

Could I have crammed it in there with some foam padding? I suppose, and I've seen it done, but it seems a bit cheap and craptastic, especially if you are shelling out for XTR Di2 in the first place. Why skimp on a $9 rubber battery holder.

Another small advantage is that I don't need to use the clips and shims that come with the battery for typical installation methods. This saves me 7g, so net "battery holding" weight is 0g:








_ If anyone warns me that those 2 tiny plastic bags technically weigh 1 grams or so, I will slap you!_

Yet another advantage of the rubber battery holder is that you don't have to do this:






This shows the shim and clip method, but in particular you can advance to 1:12 in the video and cringe as he drives that battery holder into a carbon seatpost! Ugh.

I find some of the comments accompanying the YouTube video interesting:

_Alex R - "How do you get it out?"

Jessy Bellmann - "I don't think you can..."_

Yikes!

So, here's a shot of the battery in the sleeve. I suppose if you felt the battery holder wasn't tight enough, you could clip on the two plastic shims (the top bag I weighed above - they come with the battery) and that would boost the circumference a bit. Mine was fine:









And last pics for this post are the battery holder and battery tucked cleanly into the seatpost. It grips perfectly and solidly (I can't shake it out) when it is flush with the bottom of the post. It can however be easily removed with pliers by tugging on the edge:
















Next up: more Di2 build details.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

phlegm said:


> Next up: more Di2 build details.


Can't wait, can't wait!!!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Awesome !!!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Di2 Build - Part 2*

Some more work on the bike to share.

Of course with any build, Di2 or otherwise, there is cabling to consider. This frame allows internal routing, and it was actually very easy to move them through. (Compare this to some more cramped road frames, which were a nightmare for me.)

Before starting I referenced this video from Specialized. BTW, the 2014 and 2015 Stumpy HT frames are identical in terms of internal routing, so this was helpful:

[video]http://servicevideos.specialized.com/video/76567209[/video]

Even if you have a different manufacturer's frame, their suggestion of using a shifter cable as an initial traveller/guide is great. The knob on the end of the cable adds a bit of weight for sliding it in, and it is a nice edge to tape an e-tube against:








_ Yep, you're looking at the most boring picture I've ever uploaded._

Once the shifter cable is fished through, I recommend that you tape it in place to avoid it slipping out:








_ This is the route to the rear derailleur, inside the chainstay._

Then it's a matter of taping the shifter cable to an etube, and pulling it back through the frame:








_ Second most boring picture I've ever uploaded. _

You then wind up with a few areas like this, with the e-tube pulled through the frame. Again, you may want to tape it once routed:








_ Shot of the non-drive-side downtube port, with a brake housing, and R671 shifter e-tube._

*Craptastic*

Before continuing, I should define a word I've used in previous posts. I like what the Urban Dictionary uses:

_craptastic
(adj)

1. in a good sense, the quality of being so crappy that the object is humorous or desireable

2. in a bad sense, extremely crappy

etymology: blend of the words 'crap' and 'fantastic'
1. This place is awesomely cheesy! It's craptastic!

2. The break-up was awful. It was craptastic. _

In my last post, I poked fun at people who stuff Di2 batteries in seatposts with foam wrap. I think it is "craptastic", not to mention if you are completely wrapping the battery, you are keeping it toasty warm. I know that batteries should not overheat.

Unfortunately, I am not immune to _craptasticity_ (word?). The buried junction "A" in the steatube is dangling, and while there isn't a ton of room around it, it has the potential to rattle. As such, I made this craptastic solution to prevent it:








_ 3. Phlegm wrapped his expensive Di2 stuff in bubble wrap. Looks craptastic! _

Continuing on, all of the e-tubes, and a rear brake cable make their way under the bottom bracket, into the door-covered compartment. For some reason the brake cable (leftmost, white arrow) seems to be the same size as the e-tubes, but that's just caused by the camera. It is ~5mm, while the e-tubes are 2-3mm:









_ White arrow: rear brake hose, green arrow: e-tube from the RD, blue arrow: e-tube from battery in seatpost, red arrow: e-tube from shifter._

Hanging directly underneath, is a junction "B" that connects them all together. The 4th port is filled with a dummy plug, and is used to accept another e-tube wire for charging from time to time:









Note that it is a pretty tricky exercise to determine the e-tube lengths you'll need. You don't cut and splice these things, so you need to guesstimate the length you'll need for a given application. Even with measuring, the actual route inside your frame may differ from what you've measured.

*Tip*: Before purchasing your e-tubes (they run in lengths from 150mm to 1600mm), run a shift cable through your frame, noting the entry and exit points. I think that's about as close as you'll get to an exact route. Then, allow yourself extra so that there's some slack to make connections. If it's too tight, you'll be in trouble. Also, no harm in ordering a couple of different lengths, so long as you are confident in your ability to return unused e-tubes to the vendor.

In my case, I correctly measured the length of e-tube I'd need from my battery (in the seattube) down to the bottom bracket junction area. However, I did NOT foresee that I may have to remove the seatpost to access the button on the buried junction "A" - I need a lot of slack to allow for that without disconnecting everything. Thankfully I had ordered an extra, longer e-tube, and substituted it. I got a bit lucky.

Next up: Continuing the build.


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## daniel.peralight (Sep 20, 2013)

*Junction B*

Nice job, I also worked on "stealth" di2 version last month. Junction B is inside frame behind steerer, clean but a bit unconfortable for charging and and for system reset in a case of RD crash mode as i realized here. maybe there is option to stick it inside down part of steerer tube. I just have to think, how to get di2 wire from steerer inside frame. Still playing with idea to drill a small hole in fork and plug the wire trough there


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

^^Thats a great looking bike!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

daniel.peralight said:


> Nice job, I also worked on "stealth" di2 version last month. Junction B is inside frame behind steerer, clean but a bit unconfortable for charging and and for system reset in a case of RD crash mode as i realized here. maybe there is option to stick it inside down part of steerer tube. I just have to think, how to get di2 wire from steerer inside frame. Still playing with idea to drill a small hole in fork and plug the wire trough there
> 
> View attachment 1029490


Thanks for your interest! Yes, there are some drawbacks in having a junction "A" buried, but looks like we're on the bleeding edge of XTR stealth builds. I'm OK with losing the display, as I don't need a constant battery level (apparently lasts for months), and I pretty much know what gear I'm in.

The magic button, however, is the pain. I suppose it is convenient to initiate Adjustment Mode (effectively barrel adjustments to fine tune the shifting), but you can also initiate that via software. Also, I doubt you'd constantly have to enter this mode.

Also, current battery level I can live without , as the charger tells me if full or not, although I never know exactly where I stand. Either I'm fully charged after charging, or "something else".

The Protection Mode is the main pain. I was thinking about it, and if I crash that hard there's a decent chance I've broken the derailleur. (One Shimano guy said that half the time the derailleur is indeed damaged.) So if I have to pull out my seatpost, press a button, I'm OK with that. Hopefully this isn't a common occurrence. 

In your case Daniel, you could try one of those stems that is meant for Di2. They aren't exactly Weight Weenie, but they eliminate the need to drill holes. I'm reluctant to do that.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Di2 Build - Part 3*

This post will bring things up to where I am currently. I still have a few fiddly things to do, but will get into that later.

So, continuing with the Di2, specifically wiring, one of of the goals of this build was to not have any limp e-tubes draped over the bike. The e-tubes are thin, so they will slump if you suspend them for longer than a few inches.

Thankfully, on the rear end, it looks very stealth coming form the rear derailleur:








_ The top of the derailleur remains fixed, so you don't need extra slack. Also, the e-tube bends easily, so no need for the typical shifter housing loop._

Next up is a shot of the Aero shifter (SW-R671), temporarily suspended under the right grip. If you look closely, you can see that the e-tube is tiny enough to slip between the shift lever and the main brake body without touching. This both offers support to the droopy e-tube, and keeps it stealth:








_ Running the e-tube through the shifter lever does not affect brake lever movement at all._

*WARNING*
If you are going the full-stealth route, and have an junction "A" buried, be sure to give things a final test before buttoning everything up. Also, you should install your chain, and complete the installation of the Di2 rear derailleur. In some cases you may need to get into adjustment mode, and you'll need access to the junction "A" to do so.

My rear derailleur setup went fine, but here are a couple of notes that may be helpful:


The end adjustment screw on my rear derailleur was very loose, and my first time running through the gears I almost jammed the derailleur into one of the larger cogs. I'm not sure if that is factory default, but I'd say ensure it is turned in at least 1/2 way, and you can adjust in and out from there. Just keep an eye out the first time you attempt shifting into bigger cogs. (See first Shimano snippet below.)
I did not have to go into Adjustment Mode. This is equivalent to micro-adjustments from the barrels that you'd have in a mechanical system. If you need to do this though, you'll want the junction "A" accessible at this time.
The last step of adjustment is the limit adjustments, and they work exactly as the mechanical equivalents do. You may find that as you tighten down a limit screw that you'll slightly alter the smoothness of shifting. So do a quick check in and out of the highest or lowest gear and you may want to back the limit screw out. * Note the documentation is confusing here. The rear derailleur actually has "H" and "L" markings as you'd expect, but the manual (see second Shimano snippet below) chose "K" to represent the Low (L) and "L" to represent the High (H). * They could have just picked X and Y or anything else. Geez.








_ Just keep an eye out the first time you attempt large cogs on the cassette. If the end adjustment screw (D) is too loose, you risk damage._








_ So, "K" represents "L", but "L" represents "H". Brilliant!_

Last piece of the puzzle is cleaning up the front routing. This is the longest run of e-tube (from shifter into downtube opening), and as mentioned, I don't want any drooping, craptastic looking cable runs. For example, I don't want something like this, with cable ties, and random cable loops:









Again, I could ziptie the e-tube along the rear brake housing but I thought I'd try shrinkwrapping the two together. This gets very confusing for the build, because the shrink tubing must go over both brake and e-tube before connection, then must be slid back whilst connections made, then slide back into place. A shorter length of shrink tube makes it easy to make final connections, but defeats the purpose, while a longer shrink tube makes connections difficult. Believe me, this was a pain.

Anyway, this is a proof of concept more than anything, but here are some shots of the shifter e-tube and rear brake cable in the same tube:






















_ This last pic shows a nice clean bar layout. Actually looks like I don't have shifting at all! _

...but that was before shrinking the tube down, thanks to my wife's purple heater. (Some crafty, crappy tool.) I look super-cool using this, BTW:









...and it just makes things look a bit cleaner:























Next up: Continue the build, and figure out what to do with this little shifting switch:


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

Good job phelegm. I've done that tube thing on my flash before I sold it. It certainly tidies things up.










I'm still waiting for my fork modification so new build is going kinda slow


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yeah, I think that's a good idea, so we should pat ourselves on the back diskox. 

I have seen where the e-tube was zip-tied something like 10 times along the brake housing (can't find the pic now) and it looked terrible. 

Nice Lefty, BTW!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Di2 Build - Part 4: World's Lightest Shifter?*

Yeah, like the title says, this may be the lightest possible rear shifter solution: 11g.

First off, thanks to WR304 for some inspiration, from his post. Also in that post is a link to a SW-R671 (aero shifters) hack, and a prototype photo. I'm absolutely building on all their work.

Since that post, I've been stewing with the idea of burying the R671 shifter in the grip. I finally got around to it....

First off, I need to extend the right-hand grip in order to make room for the shifters. First step was cutting a Lizardskin DSP grip in 1/3 more or less @3g:








_ You'll want a sharp blade, and a smooth, single motion to cut this foam cleanly. I learned by failing. _

Then I cut just the tip off of another grip, and slid both pieces on to make it as seamless looking as possible:








_ I think it looks pretty good. You can see the seam if you really look, but it's not bad, and otherwise probably not noticeable. _

Then I started to cut a slot out of the 1/3 piece of grip on the end to house the R671 shifter. I traced the item, but started cutting smaller at first so that the shifter would really be held tight in the foam:






















_ I started with a small cutout, and gradually enlarged it. The white at the bottom is the double-sided tape used to install DSP grips. It hung onto the foam, but it also protected the bar from blade scratches. Note that I left the outer ring intact. _

Up next is the tricky part of sliding the e-tube underneath the outer ring. While the e-tube wires are thin (2-3mm max), the connector is ~5mm, or more or less the same as a hydraulic brake housing. Sounds silly, but it was tricky to unstick the end of the grip, and stretch it enough to get the e-tube through:















_ I had to leave the outer ring intact to ensure the grip remained solid. If I tore the ring during this step, I'd have to start all over, i.e. remove the grip(s), cut them down, and cut out the hole! _

Then it's just a matter of tucking in the R671 into the cutout in the grip. It may be hard to tell, but the shifter is slightly thicker than the grip (the DSP 32.3 mm). It actually works out perfectly, as there's a lip on both sides (where the small screw holes are) that lines up exactly with the grip's surface. It is snug, and not moving:















_ The thickness of the SW-R671 is a great match for the DSP grips. _

Here are a couple of more views of the embedded shifter:














_ In the bottom photo, you can see how the e-tube wire exits under the end of the grip. _

As mentioned, the shifter module is really stuck in there, and the only motion on it will be pushing down as I shift (with the right thumb). However, I may add 2 of the original screws. I've tested them, and they actually grab really well into the foam:








_ No scale on these, but they are tiny - think watch-style screws. _

Lastly, here are a few shots of the real "stealth" look after I eliminated the white plastic:






















_ Nothing fancy - just permanent marker that appears to be staying on, er, ah, permanently. _

_Note: The shifter buttons are lower than they appear in these pictures. They are not directly on top of the grips. See newer posts below if you want details._

What I like most about this mod/hack is that I have not damaged, or altered the SW-R671 aero shifter at all - aside from the black marker. I can throw it back into the housing if I want, or even resell it if I wind up not using it. I did cut of some DSP grips, but they are relatively inexpensive.

*Total weight 11g*: 8g for SW-R671 module and 600mm e-tube + 3g of extra Lizardskin DSP grip (above).

*Questions to self:*

I agonized over the shifter placement, and it appears to be in a comfortable spot, but hard to know until I really use it. 
I believe this module is waterproof/resistant, as the larger outer casing of the SW-R671 has several holes in it, so I assume they keep it sealed at the switch itself. 
I'll have to see how the shifting force - if you can call it that - will feel. These are bare rubber switches with tiny rubber points on them*. I wear gloves, but wonder if a slightly larger button would feel better. The trick is finding something that will fit. 

* If you can see them in the photo below, there are two tiny rubber "feet' that push onto the actual sealed switches. These are to keep the bottoms of the springs in place in the original module. However, I'll have to keep these on as they add something for your thumb to push on. I will super-glue them on, although as mentioned a larger button would be better:









Next up: 

A rattle from the internal junction in the downtube. 
Awaiting new brake hose. 
Invisiframe custom wrap.


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

Going strong  Well done. I found some cool video demonstrating similar setup



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10206497807739062



I have a question again about wiring. For some unknown reason I got both SM-EW90-A and SC-M9050. What I'm thinking is that I don't need JC41 now? If I connect shifters to SC-M9050, connect SC-M9050 to SM-EW90-A and then connect RD and battery to SM-EW90-A, can battery be charged through SC-M9050 or do I need to get to SM-EW90-A to charge it?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Ah, yes - I think the separate button idea for left and right in the video is a good one, except that I'm guessing he did the soldering of the R671, and it requires extra wiring. However that setup looks pretty clean - I like it! If I wind up hating my existing setup I will do that for sure.

You are correct - both the EW90 and M9050 will work as an "A" junction, and you only need one of them. Also, yes, if the e-tubes reach everything, you don't necessarily need a JC41 "B" junction - it's just a way of connecting multiple cables. Both the EW90 and M9050 have a charging port. If you plan to connect to a computer, you also need a spare e-tube port somewhere.


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## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

I think it'd be interesting trying to shift that in the "heat of the battle" so to speak. Definitely really cool and impressive work.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I agree. I *think* I can feel the difference between the two buttons quite well with the thumb, but my basement and the trail are two different things.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I would split the buttons and have one on each grip . Very easy to solder . Also if you can take the buttons out of the housing then they would easily fit under the grip (hopefully without activation ) .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I actually do think the one-button-on-each-side is a better system. However it means hiding the R671 shifter somewhere, and having 2 additional cable runs going to either grip - not sure how to hide that.

If you open the two-button assembly, both buttons are on the same, tiny circuit board, so you can't split them per se.

I'll test things out - maybe this will be fantastic. Could be craptastic too.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

In that case I would just leave the buttons together . I would still take them out of the housing and fit them underneath the grip - should be water tight .


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

phlegm said:


> *Questions to self:*
> 
> I agonized over the shifter placement, and it appears to be in a comfortable spot, but hard to know until I really use it.
> ...
> I'll have to see how the shifting force - if you can call it that - will feel. These are bare rubber switches with tiny rubber points on them*. I wear gloves, but wonder if a slightly larger button would feel better. The trick is finding something that will fit.


Is that your final placement for the buttons, on top of the handlebar? It doesn't look right to me. The shifter needs to be in a natural position, underneath the handlebar, where you can reach it without having to move your hand much. That upper position, operated by your thumb, is going to require relaxing your grip on the handlebar to put your thumb on top of the bar to change gear.

I'm not convinced. With your thumb on top of the bar you won't have a secure grip on the bars in rough terrain, won't be able to change gear quickly and potentially won't be able to change gear whilst braking either.

You really need some big touch targets too. One button on each grip that you can press in a hurry, instead of two small closely spaced buttons. The video of the shifters that Diskox posted looks a lot more practical.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

diskox said:


> Going strong  Well done. I found some cool video demonstrating similar setup
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10206497807739062


Is there a thread somewhere that gives more detail about the buttons used and the method of attachment in this video?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

WR304 said:


> Is that your final placement for the buttons, on top of the handlebar? It doesn't look right to me. The shifter needs to be in a natural position, underneath the handlebar, where you can reach it without having to move your hand much. That upper position, operated by your thumb, is going to require relaxing your grip on the handlebar to put your thumb on top of the bar to change gear.
> 
> I'm not convinced. With your thumb on top of the bar you won't have a secure grip on the bars in rough terrain, won't be able to change gear quickly and potentially won't be able to change gear whilst braking either.
> 
> You really need some big touch targets too. One button on each grip that you can press in a hurry, instead of two small closely spaced buttons. The video of the shifters that Diskox posted looks a lot more practical.


I should point out that the bike is rotated forward in all the pics as it is held in the stand, the bar is loose in the stem, and the camera angle also makes it look odd. When in normal riding position, the buttons are just "below the equator" of the grips, if that makes sense. Having buttons on top would be ridiculous.

I'm not sure a button directly under the grip is right either - at least for me. Consider the typical placement of a shifter: it hangs below the bar, and the motion is a pushing forward and down. Now, if you've placed an electric button directly under the bar, you have to move the side of your thumb up to contact the button. That seems awkward. Try it yourself.

I think the best location would be in a pod, hanging just below the bar, like I-Spec does. In fact, I bought a Delrin aero bar GPS mount to do just that, which is my fallback idea. However, I'll test the current idea first.

I do agree with you that the buttons are small, and close together. I'm not convinced on that bit either.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

BlownCivic said:


> Is there a thread somewhere that gives more detail about the buttons used and the method of attachment in this video?


If the video is showing current gen XTR Di2, the it would be a hack to a "smart shifter", like the thunderbolt, or most likely the same R671 I'm trying. The URL pointing to that hack is earlier on in a few posts. If it's an older video, showing an older road-based version of Di2 applied to MTB, it could be the "non-smart" sprint shifters (which look easy and tiny) but they are incompatible with modern XTR.

I like the separated shifter idea (one left, one right), but it is not as practical as people think - at least in terms of implementation. First, you'd have to hack the R671, and hide it in your frame, or steerer tube. Then, the CatEye buttons used in the hack aren't long enough to reach the grip areas unless you wire 2 extensions. Then you have to run the 2 extension wires from your frame or steerer across both ends of the bar. Then, if in the steerer, you need to figure out how to connect to the rest of your Di2 system, i.e. get a wire to your R671 that is buried. It amounts to trying to hide 3 additional wires.

If that person has a clean method, it would be great to get detail on it.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

phlegm said:


> I should point out that the bike is rotated forward in all the pics as it is held in the stand, the bar is loose in the stem, and the camera angle also makes it look odd. When in normal riding position, the buttons are just "below the equator" of the grips, if that makes sense. Having buttons on top would be ridiculous.
> 
> I'm not sure a button directly under the grip is right either - at least for me. Consider the typical placement of a shifter: it hangs below the bar, and the motion is a pushing forward and down. Now, if you've placed an electric button directly under the bar, you have to move the side of your thumb up to contact the button. That seems awkward. Try it yourself.


That makes a lot more sense. You don't say that anywhere in Post #138 currently.

I'd be inclined to edit that note into the top of Post #138 to make it clearer for all future readers. It will help them know what they're looking at.

I'd also add a picture or two at the end of the post showing the shift buttons final orientation within the grip from the side, with the brake lever installed also.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I see your point about the buttons under the grip . Maybe use another grip cut off and put the buttons inside that . You would stretch your thumb over and would be more comfortable . The key here is for stealth and I think under the grip would be awesome .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

WR304 said:


> That makes a lot more sense. You don't say that anywhere in Post #138 currently.
> 
> I'd be inclined to edit that note into the top of Post #138 to make it clearer for all future readers. It will help them know what they're looking at.
> 
> I'd also add a picture or two at the end of the post showing the shift buttons final orientation within the grip from the side, with the brake lever installed also.


Fair point. I think the final button location may be higher than you're expecting, but certainly it is not directly on the top.

I've dislocated my thumb several times, so maybe my positioning is different, but here's my reasoning. Not sure what kind of setup the bike below is, but it was the first Intrawebs shot with a nice side view. The red line is what I mean by the "equator" of the grip, which is parallel to the ground.

My brakes are tilted forward as most MTB-ers do (aside from the guy in the pic), but mine might be even lower. Either way, I guesstimated the angle of them with the black line:









Not in front of the bike now, but I believe my thumb rests a bit above the equator. I tried the buttons immediately left and right of my thumb, and both felt bad for different reasons. Below the thumb seems obvious, but it also felt strange - again maybe because of past injuries. Hard to explain, but a "regular", below-the-bar shifter location feels fine, but it is a different type of thumb movement. Immediately below the thumb though, on the grip, didn't feel great.

So the final location is a bit above the equator, from memory. Not on top of the grip, but higher than I was expecting. I'm actually now sure how ergonomic ANY on-grip location is to be honest. Nothing felt absolutely great to me so far.

Anyway, talking about it won't help anything. Snow on the ground here this week, so I'll have to wait for an indoor park in a couple of weeks for a real test, or at least dry roads. (Uh, and a brake hose. Yep, brakes are good.)


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## MichaelV8V (Aug 16, 2014)

I wonder if you could glue a small plastic ridge between the two buttons, so you could orient yourself by feel and still find the button you need when bouncing down a track?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

That could work. I'm open to anything at this point.

I have a sinking feeling that I may wind up with the Thunderbolt shifter eventually.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

phlegm said:


> Fair point. I think the final button location may be higher than you're expecting, but certainly it is not directly on the top.
> 
> I've dislocated my thumb several times, so maybe my positioning is different, but here's my reasoning. Not sure what kind of setup the bike below is, but it was the first Intrawebs shot with a nice side view. The red line is what I mean by the "equator" of the grip, which is parallel to the ground.


Shifter positioning is a subject that's dear to my heart too.

A few years ago now I had Shimano XT trigger shifters, nothing wrong with that, only somehow my combination of handlebar, grip and shifter placement conspired to give me a wicked repetitive strain injury in my right hand and thumb. I normally try and ride 6 or 7 days a week. The seemingly insignificant slight stretch that my right thumb had to make to reach the trigger shifter every time I changed gear, repeated thousands of times over a period of several months, caused shooting pains and weakness down my thumb and hand. Not good on a mountain bike!

If you were to ride with the buttons in a top of grip position I could see a similar type of injury happening with the custom Di2 setup, due to the unnatural angle you would have to move your hand through.

The way that I try and setup brake and gear lever positions is to hold the handlebar grip normally, close my eyes, and then reach out as though I was going to brake or change gear. I then angle and place the levers so that they are exactly where I reached out to. This gives a natural position - no stretch or hand movement on the grip required.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I think you said you were also considering Di2 at some point? You may be interested in this video:






The host mentions a hand injury, and his surprise at the stiffness of the default Thunderbolt springs. Might be worth a spring swap at some point, and I may consider myself if I ultimately go with the Thunderbolt shifter.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There was a recent review of XTR Di2 on Bikeradar:

Shimano XTR Di2 M9050 transmission review - BikeRadar

They were fairly critical of the XTR Di2 Thunderbolt shifters ergonomics.

_"Not all was rosy with XTR Di2, though.

Although the button feedback was a refreshing change from road-going Di2 levers, all three BikeRadar testers universally lambasted the rotary-style lever layout that Shimano has proudly touted as being more ergonomic than even its own mechanical shifters. It's nice that the paddles themselves are adjustable laterally but even so, the layout still never felt as intuitive to use as standard Shimano Rapid Fire. For example, even after living and breathing Di2 for six days at the Breck Epic (and after riding the system for nearly the entire summer), I still occasionally tapped the wrong button."_ *Bikeradar*


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Odd about the shifting paddles, and tapping the "wrong" button. Looking at them on the firebolt, they seem to be the same size and relative spacing as any XTR shifter I've used in the past. Haven't mounted it yet -wonder if it sits in a very different spot than I-Spec for example? Although they do adjust laterally, so that report is interesting.


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## kileyay (Nov 25, 2015)

phlegm said:


> Yes, there are some drawbacks in having a junction "A" buried, but looks like we're on the bleeding edge of XTR stealth builds. I'm OK with losing the display, as I don't need a constant battery level (apparently lasts for months), and I pretty much know what gear I'm in.


Nice build...For those of us who prefer battery level indicators and/or gear view on the road, Shimano makes the d-fly unit which plugs into the e-tube system and communicates both to the head unit. I've tried subbing in my d-fly unit into my XTR setup and it doesn't work--in fact, it renders the system unusable. I like having the screen below available on my head unit









Anyone know why there's not compatibility for XTR di2?

Also, with all the talk of cleaning up the cables, and maybe this was mentioned, why not bury the standard road 3-port junction in the Tharsis XC stem and/or run the cabling through the Tharsis XC handlebar? I have friends who have done DIY versions of these with 3T Integra stems and by drilling holes in base bars on TT bikes for the road, and I don't really see why the same logic wouldn't apply off road...


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

kileyay said:


> Nice build...For those of us who prefer battery level indicators and/or gear view on the road, Shimano makes the d-fly unit which plugs into the e-tube system and communicates both to the head unit. I've tried subbing in my d-fly unit into my XTR setup and it doesn't work--in fact, it renders the system unusable. I like having the screen below available on my head unit
> 
> View attachment 1031291
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks for contributing - I'll take any and all ideas. As you can see this is a work in progress.

Compatibility is hit and miss. The Ultegra R671 shifters work fine with XTR, but that doesn't mean the SM-EWW01 (D-Fly) would work. The only option you'd have is to load up the e-Tube software, initiate a Connection Check, and see if it is detected and there could be a firmware update. Mismatched firmware is a known cause of this kind of stuff. If you can, would be great if you could report back on results.

As for cabling, my intent was to have things look like a regular mechanical shifting bike. All e-tubes run inside the frame anyway, so the only exposed run is from the bars to downtube and that will be hidden next to the brake housing. You actually can't see any e-tubes without looking closely.

You could bury the wires 100%, but I'm not drilling into an MCFK bar and stem, especially given the stresses that MTBs see versus road.

Let us know how the D-Fly goes, and nice quilt BTW!


----------



## Dexter69 (Apr 18, 2015)

phlegm said:


> This post will bring things up to where I am currently. I still have a few fiddly things to do, but will get into that later.
> 
> So, continuing with the Di2, specifically wiring, one of of the goals of this build was to not have any limp e-tubes draped over the bike. The e-tubes are thin, so they will slump if you suspend them for longer than a few inches.
> 
> ...


Great report! I feel your pain with the heat shrink - I have done the exact same with an Epic WC build (w/- pro Tharsis Di2 bars and stem - these work a treat) I have been working on - what a major pain!! I am dreading re-doing it once I sort out bar height and cut the fork steerer to the correct length - the brake cable length will likely have to be shortened and I used clear heatshrink which I am not 100 % happy with and will swap to black - hopefully second time around it goes smoother. I am jealous of the large BB opening the HT frame has too - that would have made things a lot easier for my build!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Hey, thanks for the kind comment. I'm waiting on a new brake line (old one was just too short), so I have to re-do the shrink as well.

Yep, that BB compartment has been really helpful. I still have an internal junction rattle to sort out in the downtube, and while I can wrap it in foam, it may no longer fit in/out of the tiny downtube slot. So I completely take your point about the smaller frame openings being a pain.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

kileyay said:


> Nice build...For those of us who prefer battery level indicators and/or gear view on the road, Shimano makes the d-fly unit which plugs into the e-tube system and communicates both to the head unit. I've tried subbing in my d-fly unit into my XTR setup and it doesn't work--in fact, it renders the system unusable. I like having the screen below available on my head unit
> 
> Anyone know why there's not compatibility for XTR di2?


If you've taken the d-fly from your road bike when did you last check the firmware on the road bike for updates?

According to this post from the Garmin forums Shimano XTR Di2 with a d-fly wireless connection should work with your Garmin Edge 1000.

*Q:* _"I have a MTB with Shimano XTR Di2 ordered (front a 3- crank) . Does anybody know if my Edge 1000 is compatible?"_

*A:* _"Compatible with the following Di2 systems: Dura Ace 9070, Ultegra 6870, 6770 and XTR 9050 (required firmware: min. version 3.0) "_

https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?267165-Standard-Edge-1000-Shimano-XTR-Di2

It sounds like you probably need to connect your system to the Shimano e-tube software and make sure that all parts, including the d-fly wireless unit, have the latest firmware versions.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Di2 Stealth vs Mech XTR - Actual Weight Difference*

I guessed at this much earlier in this thread, but while I wait for some parts I figured I'd do some actual weight differentials. All weights are *actual*, and have a scale shot earlier in this thread:

*Items Removed from 1X11 M9000 Setup:*
XTR M9000 Shifter (rear, I-spec II, cable, housings): 158g - see pic below (106g for shifter only) 
XTR M9000 Rear Derailleur (GS): 222g

*Total Removed: 380g*

*Items Added to Create 1X11 XTR Di2 Setup:*
XTR Di2 RD (GS): 290g
Ultegra Di2 SW-R671 shifter hack (with partial foam grip): 11g 
XTR Di2 Internal Battery: 51g
Deda Elementi Seatpost Battery Holder: 7g
XTR Di2 EW-90 Junction "A" (3 port): 9g 
XTR Di2 SW-JC41 Junction "B" (4 port): 2 X 4g = 8g
Di2 eTube (600mm) : 2 X 7g = 14g
Di2 eTube (500mm) : 6g
Di2 eTube (150) : 2g

*Total Added: 398g*

*Net increase to bike weight by XTR Di2: 18g**

*My current shifter hack is experimental, and may or may not suck. If it sucks, another variant may add weight.








_ Shifter, cable, and housing weight. I forgot to post this earlier. _


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Screw You Di2 - I'll Lose Even More Weight!*

Yep, the post title pretty much nails it: I'm determined to offset the extra weight that Di2 gave me.

So, to start, I targeted the relatively "heavy" XTR M9000 cassette. The XX1 or X01 are just too much lighter to pass up, even though I didn't need the 40T that M9000 gave me, and I sure don't need the 42T that SRAM provides. Although, I'll take the 10T on the other end.

Outgoing (and already sold) M9000 cassette @ 327g (from my previous 2013 S-Works build):









..and incoming X01, which thanks to *sfer1*, I found is identical to XX1, but stealthier. It is a nice 265g:









*Important Di2 Note*: The XTR Di2 rear derailleur works perfectly with the 10-42 range of this SRAM cassette.

Next up is the incoming DT Swiss XD Driver (for a 240 hub), @ 39g:









...saving a bit over the outgoing default, @ 49g:









You may have seen the Extralite Blacklock front and rear thru-axles from my earlier post, totaling 56g:
















These are attempting to offset weight I had with a flyweight Tune DC17 skewer (rear was 135 on previous build) @ 19g:









... and a Tune DC15 for the front @ 43g:









So, if you've kept track of my _keeping-the-wheels-on-the-bike_ bits, I've managed to drop 6g, even though my new rear axle is beefier. (I realize that 6g is nothing, but I just did not want to increase here going from 135 to 142 on the new frame.)

Still more. We next have an incoming MCFK "sub 5" 31.8mm seatpost collar @ 6g that I posted earlier:









...and outgoing Specialized default (with Ti bolt) @ 17g:









Last pics - I swear. An MCFK expander, which was totally not worth it $/g savings-wise, and *COMPLETELY NOT WORTH IT TIME AND DANGER WISE*: See my Holy Crap! ... Holy Crap! ... Holy Crap! post.

Incoming MCFK @ 12g:









...and outgoing Specialized default, which was originally more than the 25g below because I hacked off large chunks, but whatever:









So, to tally everything up:

XTR M900 cassette to X01 XG-1195: -62g 
Standard to DT Swiss XD Driver: -10g 
Tune Skewer & Thru Axle to Extralite: -6g 
Specialized seatpost collar to MCFK: -11g 
Specialized expander to MCFK: -13g (Did I mention this particular one was NOT worth it?) 

*Total weight loss with these changes: 102g.*

... and from the previous post, Di2 has added 18g to my build (subject to how a hack works out), so overall, after adding Di2 and these adjustments, I have lost 84g from the bike - for now*.

Next up:

Invisiframe kit has arrived.  
 *Need to discuss some other sources of new weight added.  
Still have that rattle in the downtube to fix.  
Still waiting on the brake hose.


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

Nice, you went for x01. Mine came @ 262g. You should get this to complete the blackness 








My cables are gigantic compared to yours 
300 and 350 for two shifters, 1200 from stem to junction a (below battery), 900 from rd to junction, 650 from junction to battery (leeway to pull seatpost out). Using your math that should amount to 38g?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

diskox said:


> Nice, you went for x01. Mine came @ 262g. You should get this to complete the blackness
> View attachment 1031513
> 
> 
> ...


KMC X11 SL DLC (crazy name)? Love those jewel boxes. I just can't justify that expense any more, believe it or not.  They look nice at first though.

Re e-tubes, I get 39g when using the super-magic formula, g = (X/100) +1 , but it's a guesstimate. I think one advantage I have is that I'm able to connect the e-tubes at a central point in the bottom bracket compartment - and you have an extra shifter.

BTW, you have 2 shifters and no e-tube to a front derailleur?


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

Yes(1x11), I want to be able to down shift or up shift with either hand


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Ah, I like that idea. Kinda like having the "one button on each grip" idea we've been looking at.

Please be sure to post some pics on your build, and let us know how you like that setup!


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## Dexter69 (Apr 18, 2015)

phlegm said:


> Hey, thanks for the kind comment. I'm waiting on a new brake line (old one was just too short), so I have to re-do the shrink as well.
> 
> Yep, that BB compartment has been really helpful. I still have an internal junction rattle to sort out in the downtube, and while I can wrap it in foam, it may no longer fit in/out of the tiny downtube slot. So I completely take your point about the smaller frame openings being a pain.


No worries.

The first thing that went from my planned build was the junction box foam wrap and cable ties (to try and pin the junction box against the inner wall) due to the restricted access. Sounds like I will be hearing an annoying rattle once it is up and rolling. I hope not otherwise I might have to try and fix it to the brake hose somehow... or splice two cables to form one longer length and get rid of the J box (1x11 so I only need the J box to extend the cable) - the WW option!

It would be interesting to see if the 2016 XTR Di2 Epics have a J box rattle or if specialized have come up with a way to keep the junction box rattle free.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

phlegm said:


> KMC X11 SL DLC (crazy name)? Love those jewel boxes. I just can't justify that expense any more, believe it or not.  They look nice at first though.
> 
> Re e-tubes, I get 39g when using the super-magic formula, g = (X/100) +1 , but it's a guesstimate. I think one advantage I have is that I'm able to connect the e-tubes at a central point in the bottom bracket compartment - and you have an extra shifter.
> 
> BTW, you have 2 shifters and no e-tube to a front derailleur?


https://www.bike-components.de/en/KMC/X11-SL-DLC-11-fach-Kette-p39458/

58.78€ excl. VAT


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

THey do look very nice but like Phlegm ,mentioned over time the coating comes away and they look horrible . However with good maintenance you can still get a ot of miles out of them before they look off . I have two sets of 10spd KMC in Ti nitride gold and one set in DLC/red coating and so far they still look great but i don' ride my luxury bikes much .

Phlegm you think that costs a lot how about the YBN titanium chain (also Ti nitride coated) . The rollers are titanium (titanium being a hard metal will last longer against the teeth) and the side plates and rivets are steel (for extra strength of connecting the links) . £200.00 I paid for mine and it's on my Stumpy that i posted before . About 190grams for 102 links. Was it worth it - well not really for the weight savings (although 30grams is still pretty good) but for strength absolutely . These chains are damn strong (from the reports I have read) .


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

karimian5 said:


> Phlegm you think that costs a lot how about the YBN titanium chain (also Ti nitride coated) . The rollers are titanium (titanium being a hard metal will last longer against the teeth) and the side plates and rivets are steel (for extra strength of connecting the links) . £200.00 I paid for mine and it's on my Stumpy that i posted before . About 190grams for 102 links. Was it worth it - well not really for the weight savings (although 30grams is still pretty good) but for strength absolutely . These chains are damn strong (from the reports I have read) .


YBN titanium chains have terrible reputation. I don't know where you read that they're strong. I've read nothing but bad things about them.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Well I must be a lucky bugger then because mine is still going .


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

My YBN Ti chain was on my bike for exactly 1 ride. It broke 4 times during that ride. And to give you a bit of insight into how I ride, the X11SL Ti chain that just came off my bike had about 3,000+ miles on it without any kind of issues.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Damn bad luck dude . Hopefully mine will still keep going otherwise my DLC KMC will be going on .


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I spoke with the KMC dude at Crankworx Whistler this summer and he claimed that the DLC - diamond like coating - coating was significantly MORE durable than the Ti nitride coating on the X11SL Ti chain.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

BlownCivic said:


> I spoke with the KMC dude at Crankworx Whistler this summer and he claimed that the DLC - diamond like coating - coating was significantly MORE durable than the Ti nitride coating on the X11SL Ti chain.


Maybe I'll reconsider the DLC, because I used to use them a while back. The one drawback of a black chain though, was my inability to tell at a glance how dirty it was.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Ha ha so true man . Although you cannot deny the fact that they look ace . I want to get the blue DLC chain although a lot of folk say the green looks the best . I am still keeping my YBN ti chain but you guys are convincing me to use my KMC . Not sure what to do now . ARGHHHHH !!!


Edit : Right i have just ordered the blue KMC DLC chain as it looks nicer than my red DLC one . I REALLY HOPE YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT !!!


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Another nice one Phlegm. Are you using Your S-Works cranks on this one ? If so, might be time to dumpster the WT ring.
Carbon Ti DM 30T NW X-MonoSync.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

That looks tits XC71 and I got excited about Ti. Then I realized it appears that there's no offset engineered into these rings, and no oval. I'll stick with my Garbaruk Melon for now.


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

BlownCivic said:


> That looks tits XC71 and I got excited about Ti. Then I realized it appears that there's no offset engineered into these rings, and no oval. I'll stick with my Garbaruk Melon for now.


There is offset in form of a spacer that comes with the ring. I have it mount on these cranks to move my chain line in.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

xc71 said:


> Another nice one Phlegm. Are you using Your S-Works cranks on this one ? If so, might be time to dumpster the WT ring.
> Carbon Ti DM 30T NW X-MonoSync.


Damn you guys and your good (expensive) ideas!


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## Drider85 (Jan 12, 2009)

*I am in over my head in tech detail*

Please forgive me if the is way off base/topic. I saw the compact nature of the switch and it triggered bad ideas.

I recently had a friend horse trade me some Mavic Zap/Mecktronic shifter. They look somewhere between unsightly and awesome. At the end of the unique hood is a dual direction small shifter that seemed intriguing. I wondered if it would wire in at all. I.e remove the switch and mount it to a flat bar. They also had a sprint/flat top shifter that seems like the ergonomics might be about right.

















Sorry for a bit of rabbit trail. Also awesome work, information and inspiration for bad ideas!:thumbsup:


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Hey, I appreciate any and all replies and ideas. I haven't had a chance to test the tiny Di2 switch yet, so could be OK or could be terrible.

The "zap" switch above is interesting, and it resembles my fallback idea #2 of keeping the switch in the original Ultegra aero mount and somehow mounting it to the bar.


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## lance153 (May 28, 2009)

What do you think about WTC Goat Link? Shimano RD should shifts better with wide 10-42 cassette. Im also thinking about it










Odoslané z môjho iPhone cez Tapatalk


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'm not familiar with that. Is it means to change the location of the RD?

The 10-42 was fine with the Di2 RD by default.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

It brings it further back so the chain can wrap around the sprocket without stressing the return spring in the derailleur . The closer the derailleur the further out it has to go to accommodate the larger sprocket .


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

Like phlegm said, it's not needed for new xtr groups.

My di2 stuff arrived finally only to find out that you can't have two junction A', at least not during setup. I'm waiting for junction B to arrive to replace the A in seat tube.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Also just remembered the Di2 doesn't have a spring which is probably why it works by default .


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

It works on M9000, I've had it. There is XT 11-42 cassette from shimano where it works as well. There is also this as an alternative to goat.

To be on topic, my weights:
battery 51g
1200mm 12g
650mm 7g
350mm 4g
300mm 3g
SC-m9050 31g

which would amount to 112g(with 4g junction B) of di2 internals.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

diskox said:


> Like phlegm said, it's not needed for new xtr groups.
> 
> My di2 stuff arrived finally only to find out that you can't have two junction A', at least not during setup. I'm waiting for junction B to arrive to replace the A in seat tube.


I know this is a long thread, but I did mention here that 2 "A" junctions won't work, but you can temporarily connect a second one for charging is the first is buried in the frame.


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

Yes, I've actually seen that  I wanted to run one A junction buried in frame but later I got a good deal on sc-m9050 so I forgot about your statement and left out junction B from the order (#139 post, but I misread your answer).

Anyhow, stupidity on my part.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Phlegm if you don't want to stuff the seatpost with foam to hold the battery then just sacrifice a few grams and get this (scroll down to the video) :

Ride Magazin - Tune gewährt ersten Augenschein vor Eurobike [10287]


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## lance153 (May 28, 2009)

karimian5 said:


> Phlegm if you don't want to stuff the seatpost with foam to hold the battery then just sacrifice a few grams and get this (scroll down to the video) :
> 
> Ride Magazin - Tune gewährt ersten Augenschein vor Eurobike [10287]


That looks good!

Odoslane z môjho iPhone cez Tapatalk


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

karimian5 said:


> Phlegm if you don't want to stuff the seatpost with foam to hold the battery then just sacrifice a few grams and get this (scroll down to the video) :
> 
> Ride Magazin - Tune gewährt ersten Augenschein vor Eurobike [10287]


Looks interesting, but the rubber Deda Elementi insert is lighter and cheaper. If it slips though, I might consider that.


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## daniel.peralight (Sep 20, 2013)

small tip 
https://r2-bike.com/EXTRALITE-Screw-SS-HyperCap-bolt-M6x24-Aluminum-for-HyperCap


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks for the input Daniel. I'm already running an MCFK Ahead cap, which comes with an AL bolt. Perhaps the one you reference is slightly lighter, but I won't fit for half grams at this point.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I think he means because it is hollow you can run the wiring through the bolt .


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## lance153 (May 28, 2009)

No, it was just for weight save  you can't put cable connector trough that bolt. The hole is too small


Odoslane z môjho iPhone cez Tapatalk


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Ah, didn't notice that - smart idea.


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## DarioV (Nov 28, 2011)

Very nice project. :thumbsup:


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cheers, thanks Dario. I've slacked for a while, but will have updates over the holiday season.


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## DarioV (Nov 28, 2011)

OK , we are waiting.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Invisiframe Install*

Admittedly, the concept of frame protection isn't exactly in line with Weight Weenie goals. However, I was a bit miffed when I sold my 2013 Stumpy frame this year as the stealth/flat finish shows every minor rub, and a tiny bit of (suspected) tree sap was impossible to get rid of without risking rub marks. I wound up selling the frame with tree sap included free of charge,  , but probably took a bit of a price hit.

While the new 2015 frame has some funky neon colours, it is still a mat finish, and there is plenty of black portions that easily show rub marks.

For this reason I decided to give an Invisiframe kit a try, and I thought I'd give a review as well. As an FYI, I couldn't find a kit listed for a 2015 Specialized Stumpjumper hardtail on the site, but the owner, Lee, replied quickly saying that they did indeed have the plans (I believe it is identical to 2014), and he could queue it up. It shipped quickly from the UK to Canada - maybe 3 days via DHL, and I nicely didn't have to pay any taxes or duties upon arrival.

This particular kit comes in two sheets, shipped in a cylinder. Given that this is the Weight Weenie subforum, I wanted to weigh the sheets first, so here's the full kit @ 75g:









...plus a free decal that you could probably apply to your bike, but I didn't despite the light weight:









I then found a nicely shot video that gave a great overview of the installation process:






Some comments I'll add here:


The video is careful to suggest baby shampoo for basic lubrication without added chemicals, however it also suggests disinfectant wipes for initial cleaning. I'm not sure if there are any additives in those wipes, but I used Isopropyl alcohol to clean my frame first.

While the video shows bare hands on the decals, I used wet nitril gloves to avoid fingerprints, and also to smooth out the decals as evenly as possible before using the included plastic squeegee. Some of the curves on the frame are tough to access with the tool as well, so a wet, gloved finger works nicely.

Start with an easy piece - such as the back of the seat tube, as shown in the video.

I found that I didn't have to go crazy by spraying both the frame, and decal (both sides) with the soapy water. It was more than enough to just slather it on the decal.

I found it helpful to wipe off the excess water from the decal once it was seated - this helps improve drying time.

Go slowly - only do one or 2 decals at a time and wait until fully dried to continue - I found this less stressful.

Don't worry - the edges of the decal won't stay on until it mostly dries, especially if you are bending around a tight curve.

Try to avoid touching other OEM decals from the manufacturer. The design of the Invisiframe may come close to an existing one, and it won't adhere as well as you'd like.

Return to the bike several times as some of your decals dry - slowly push out remaining bubbles and push down edges as it dries. Eventually you should get it close to perfect and any last edges will eventually adhere.

One of the trickier things I found was figuring out what goes where. The kit does come with an exact representation of the cuts, but every once in a while it was difficult to tell which orientation, or location would be best on a particular tube. In addition, some decals will line up right next to others, so being off with one decal can have a knock-on effect of misplacement.








_The included legend sheet is well-documented, but it still takes time to identify the exact location on the frame._

Invisiframe offers a "standard" and a flat finish for their kits, so I opted for the latter. I suspected that shiny decals on a mat-finished frame would look odd. While there's still a bit of a sheen to the mat kit, I'm pleased with it, and it is actually slightly less shiny that the OEM Specialized protective decals. Here's an example next to a black portion of the frame near the bottom bracket:








_It's difficult to see here, but the decal is on the right. Although you can see some minor "blotches" in this shot, to the naked eye it looks nearly perfect, even on a challenging black background._

There was only one cutout glitch in the kit, in that the left (non-drive side) chainstay has a bolt hole underneath to accommodate external cable routing should you choose to for the rear brake. I have the decal positioned as correctly as I can, however it does not allow for this bolt hole in the frame. While I'm not overly concerned, you may see that the decal does not adhere to the metal itself. Hopefully this does not become an issue:








_It may be hard to see, but the protective decal runs well beyond the bolt hole so re-positioning it would not have helped - at least as far as I can tell._

Lastly, here's the weight of the backing sheets once all the decals have been used. Invisiframe nicely adds some rectangular and circular extras, which is a great idea. I didn't use any at this time, but may do so to avoid a rub area. So, based on deduction, I applied 42g of protective decals to the frame:








_Note that my scale rounds up .5g to 1, so the elastic on the sheets (just to keep them on the scale) could theoretically add some weight._

*Verdict*

_*Pros*:_

Quick shipping, and fast, direct responses from the company owner. Top-notch service.
A well-described legend sheet (with bike tube diagram), and solid written instructions.
Takes a bit of practice, but is generally easy to apply.
The mat finish kit is quite reasonable, and looks to be OEM quality (or better), even on a mat finish bike.
Inclusion of extra/spare cutouts is a smart idea.
Well-thought out cuts/decals - fit nicely around existing mounts and OEM protection.

*Cons:*

Sometimes difficult to tell exactly where the decal should be placed on a given tube, even with the legend/diagram.
Not inexpensive.
One decal covers an external frame mounting hole, and while I won't use that mount, it doesn't appear to stick to the metal.
It isn't weightless. 


Overall, I'm pretty impressed with the kit, and certainly the service. There remain a couple of minor edges that I'm not certain have adhered properly, and the one external mount hole that is incorrectly covered. We'll have to see how it holds up to dirt accumulation.

I'll report back on long-term resilience, but I certainly recommend this particular kit thus far.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I started vinyl wrapping frame about 6 years ago . Took a few attempts to master it but in the end looks pretty good . Use a hair dryer to get those tricky areas. Once the adhesive warms up it become tacky and the plastic becomes soft enough for those tricky bends . Then use masking tape to hold the vinyl down for a few minutes . 
A squeegee is a must as just using our thumb only presses the vinyl down slightly . It can work but a squeegee does the job much better . The kit should have come with one .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Indeed, the kit came with a squeegee, and I've used it extensively, but for the initial smooth out fingers were great. I didn't think of the hair dryer bit, so that's a great idea for the tougher curves.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Have you had a chance to ride the new bike outdoors yet?

This is quite a nice video showing how to internally wire the Pro Tharsis handlebar and stem with XTR Di2:

http://www.pro-bikegear.com/en-gb/tharsis-xc-trail-and-xtr-di2/

This is a build log for a Pivot Mach 4 carbon with XTR Di2:

http://flowmountainbike.com/tests/shimano-xtr-di2-long-term-test-installation/

.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks for the link WR. Pro Tharsis makes for a nice, clean look, but I'm not about to drop my MCFK investment at this point. Even so, the only cable up front with my setup is the shifter, and as per an earlier post I've blended it with the rear brake cable which has to route there anyway.

I have given up on my fancy shifter. I'm overdue for an update, so I'll report back with more detail.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

phlegm said:


> I have given up on my fancy shifter. I'm overdue for an update, so I'll report back with more detail.


Don't give up on the shifter dude . It looked really cool . Was it the wiring or pressing it into the grip ?!!!


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

The Pro stuff is a nice idea but pretty heavy (relatively speaking) and I don't like the cable exiting the stem by either option. Cable routing from the shifter is tricky though and there aren't many super clean options. Following the brake hose is the way to go I reckon, just as you have


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There's an aftermarket Zirbel velocity electronic shifter shown here that looks interesting. It weighs 20g apparently and is a twist shifter for Di2 on a flat bar:






http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/04/25...-control-di2-eps-even-etap-electronic-shifts/

.


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## DeiviX (Oct 2, 2009)

diskox said:


> Going strong  Well done. I found some cool video demonstrating similar setup
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More detall


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Bikerumor had an article about this Norco Revolver FS which has a nicely hidden XTR Di2 setup.

Readers' Rides: Rock and Road Bike Shop debuts Norco Revolver Terminator w/ cleanest Di2 possible - Bikerumor










The part I particularly liked was the custom junction box. They took a standard SM-EW90-B junction box and modified it to fit into the frame's internal routing ports. It allows easy charging and access to the diagnostic LEDs, whilst still having it internal to the frame.


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## lRaphl (May 26, 2007)

Looks nice for sure!


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## egebhardt (Nov 16, 2004)

Here's my 2011-2013 S-Works Epic build.

I didn't bother with the SM-BTR2 (has chip in it and $99) or the SW-M9050-R (56g and $120). Those are both heavy and expensive so I went the cheap/light route. I could also get rid of the left shifter (SW-R600 17g) and just rely on Synchro-Shifting the right SW-R600 can do, however, I don't like that it wants the top-cog to big-ring combo in it's programmed jumps. Full cross-chaining sucks so I'll do it myself and 17 grams isn't much.

I opted to take an SM-BMR1 and steal the lil chip out of it. Then solder a LiPo (Ebay China $6) to the posts of the lil chip. Look below the water bottle and you'll see what I mean.

The handlebar is pretty busy but I can cut some wires shorter to clean that up. Yes, you can cut them and re-solder. It's only 2 wires in there. The other options is to buy them shorter [email protected]$20 each, it gets old buying and waiting for shipping, which gets old fast.

Realize that I have the Fox iCD or iRD Fork (whatever you want to call it) involved there too to make it look pretty busy on the right. 22.6 lbs as pictured (with chain).


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

egebhardt said:


> Here's my 2011-2013 S-Works Epic build.
> 
> 22.6 lbs as pictured.


I was looking at those pictures trying to work out what was missing. Then I realised the bike hasn't got a chain.

The climbing shifters look to be a long way inboard from the grips. Isn't it a bit of a stretch to reach them whilst riding?


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## egebhardt (Nov 16, 2004)

Yes. 1st ride... the chain broke. I tried to re-push a Shimano pin. My bad.

Yes. The shifter is a reach. I'm not sure how I'll manage that but I hate the alternative FireBolt SW-M9050-R or monster mechcanical ST-M9000 levers always jabbing me in the side of the hand.

My 2nd test ride is tomorrow!


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

egebhardt said:


> Yes. The shifter is a reach. I'm not sure how I'll manage that but I hate the alternative FireBolt SW-M9050-R or monster mechanical ST-M9000 levers always jabbing me in the side of the hand.


From your picture I think you could trim a small section of the underside of your right hand foam grip away. That would allow you to fit the right hand climbing shifter between the brake clamp and grip as pictured here:










The Fox IRD remote dial blocks the clearance on the left side but the left hand climbing shifter for the front derailleur could stay where it is. You typically don't use the front as much as the rear so it isn't as much of an issue needing to move your hand for a shift.

The new Shimano Deore XT SW-M8050 Di2 Firebolt shifters are supposed to be an improvement over the current XTR SW-M9050 Di2 Firebolt shifters.

_"The XT-level Di2 shifters have been tweaked from the top-tier XTR version. The size of the rotary shift paddles has been increased slightly, the stroke is slightly shorter, with a single click, and they offer adjustable positioning to suit rider preference."_ *Bikeradar*

Shimano unveils Deore XT M8050 Di2 electronic MTB groupset - BikeRadar

With the launch of Shimano Dura Ace 9100 Di2 there's a new satellite shifter being released for that which may be an option for MTB Di2 setups:

_"SW-R9150" - new satellite shifter
according to one reporter it is "programmable" button
according to specs it is "pair" of shifters
there are no pics yet_ *ooo*

2016-2017 SHIMANO Product Information Web

New dura-ace 9100 - Page 44 - Weight Weenies

.


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## egebhardt (Nov 16, 2004)

Thanks!
The right shifter is a bit far away. By cutting it and making it close to the grip could be better or worse.

I'll definitely look at the new road shifters. The SW-M9050-R shifter is highly functional, however, 56g is overkill. Not to mention those audible clicks. Loud!! Totally unnecessary. The handlebars should become a video-game console eventually.

Also, the 28t - 38t chainrings make for an awesome ratio set. I also shimmed each ring 1.2mm to the left as to bias the bigger cogs. Shifting was as good as can be expected and the biggest 40t cog has a reasonable angle from the 28t ring. I still think 1x drivetrain cross-chaining sux. I can't even imagine how *BAD* the SRAM XX1 Eagle 12spd angles are.


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## egebhardt (Nov 16, 2004)

I cleaned things up on the handlebar again. I'm now using Synchro-Shift so I ditched the left shifter. I learned that Synchro-Shift is HIGHLY adjustable in the Windows Etube app. The default synchro maps (S1 and S2 on the display) involve a shift that moves the front der to big ring AND moves the rear der to a bigger cog at the same time! How stupid is that? I would never do that with a cable system. Naturally, we do one at a time.

The Etube app let me do one click to jump to the big ring. Then another to go to a bigger OR smaller cog using the left OR right button respectively. Very slick. They put a lot of thought into this.

Also, I ran the 2 fork wires up the steerer tube. I may put a carbon cap on there. The 2 wires will hold it down. Maybe dab a bit of silicon caulking on top to hold it.

Then I moved the right shifter ~3mm to the right. It's totally fine to me. I think it is easy enough to reach. I dropped ~30 grams by ditching the second SW-R600 shifter, wire, JC41 box and velcro strap. I'm down from 22.58 to 22.51 pounds now.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

egebhardt said:


> Also, the 28t - 38t chainrings make for an awesome ratio set. I also shimmed each ring 1.2mm to the left as to bias the bigger cogs. Shifting was as good as can be expected and the biggest 40t cog has a reasonable angle from the 28t ring. I still think 1x drivetrain cross-chaining sux. I can't even imagine how *BAD* the SRAM XX1 Eagle 12spd angles are.
> ...
> I cleaned things up on the handlebar again. I'm now using Synchro-Shift so I ditched the left shifter. I learned that Synchro-Shift is HIGHLY adjustable in the Windows Etube app. The default synchro maps (S1 and S2 on the display) involve a shift that moves the front der to big ring AND moves the rear der to a bigger cog at the same time! How stupid is that? I would never do that with a cable system. Naturally, we do one at a time.


The handlebars look a lot tidier now with all the wires and left hand shifter gone.

With a 1x system an unintended benefit of the Boost 148 rear spacing on newer frames is that if you use a standard chainset (non boost spacing) on the boost frame it moves the chainring in 3mm, for a better chainline on the largest rear sprockets.

Thinking about it on my bike I tend to do my front shift onto big ring, and then maybe a rear shift onto a bigger rear sprocket only once the front shift is complete. (XT M8000 mechanical gears 2x11) I don't do them together either to avoid crunching the chain or throwing it off.

Going the other way - (big ring to inner front chainring) I will frequently shift front and rear simultaneously though, pressing both front and rear shifters at once to go to a smaller front chainring and smaller front sprocket at the same time.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

OP: Is this bike finished? Are you riding it yet? How's the Di2?


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

BlownCivic said:


> OP: Is this bike finished? Are you riding it yet? How's the Di2?


I think he checked out back when the karimian5 gongshow went down.


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## lRaphl (May 26, 2007)

Yeah...Phlegm didn't post after the ridable never riden ultra light alu all mountain speci thing...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This is a picture showing the new Dura Ace SW-9150 climbing shifter.










These are standalone shifters (not the sprint shifters which have to be plugged into a road lever) and look like they could be good for a mountain bike, being smaller than the old style climbing shifter.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Update*

I'm back.

Had extremely limited bandwidth for a while, and posting here wasn't a priority, believe it or not.

Bike is completed. I ditched the aero shifter as the buttons were just too small to activate, especially with gloves on. Also, I just couldn't find a location that felt natural to the thumb. I just went with a single "Firebolt" shifter on the right side, and it works great. Wish it were I-spec-compatible to share the clamp and reduce a bit of bar clutter, but it's no biggie.

There were some concerns over ergonomics and push force with the Firebolt - I don't notice anything. Pushing force, and button location feels pretty much identical to mechanical XTR.

Shifting is quick, and perfect each time. It's not noticeably better or faster than a well-maintained mechanical setup, but I do like that I don't have to mess with cable tension.

Setup is still stealthy as I don't have the Di2 display. The smart junction under the BB is all I need to setup and charge the system. Pushing both up & down shifter buttons on the Firebolt will display the battery status light on the junction. Thus far only 1 additional top-up charge required this season, so it isn't a factor.

Weight is 17.75 lbs (with rear Furious Fred and front Thunder Burt liteskin at the time).


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Good to have you back.


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## MichaelV8V (Aug 16, 2014)

phlegm said:


> I'm back.


Yes, good to see you back here


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

RS VR6 said:


> Good to have you back.





MichaelV8V said:


> Yes, good to see you back here


Cheers guys, very kind of you.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Welcome back  !!!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks for all the great input and comments on this build, but I'm moving to a new build, here.

If you have any interest in the frame/parts have a look at used bike sites as I'm selling off several items.

Cheers, and see you in the new build thread.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Hey phlegm,

Hope it's OK to piggy back on your thread, but this is one of the more complete Di2 information repositories, so I thought this would be a good place to ask..

Can anyone say for sure or comment on whether or not a LEFT (front) XTR Di2 shifter can be reprogrammed to actuate the rear derailleur? I want to do the lightweight hidden button thing by using a gutted left shifter (they're SOO much cheaper than the right ones), but I want to be sure that it can be configured for rear derailleur control.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

NP, good to figure this stuff out.

I've never owned a left Di2 shifter, but from memory of the software, I'm pretty sure either shifter can perform the same functions. I had trouble finding anything online though, although it is mentioned in the "Bottom Line" section of this review:
Reviewed: Shimano XTR Di2 is capable, at a steep price | VeloNews.com

My understanding of it, is that the reviewer was hoping to see single-button versions of the XTR shifters so that someone could shift up from one side, down from the other, when using 1X. He set this up during the review, but of course each shifter has 2 buttons.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Thanks man. I think this is enough for me to take the plunge on a left shifter.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

BlownCivic said:


> Thanks man. I think this is enough for me to take the plunge on a left shifter.


Hopefully you can return it to wherever you buy just in case. Easy enough to test the left shifter before dismantling it I suppose.


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