# Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead 29er build



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

So there's an obscene amount of snow melt going on in my area lately, so it's a good time to geek out on bike building/shopping. This is a pretty slow build, so I don't currently have a whole lot to share, but I'll continue to update it as I progress.

I picked up the frame in September, it was lightly used (less than a yr old).


0920181240~2 by Nate, on Flickr

Decided to put a MRP Ribbon air fork on it. 140mm travel, 51mm offset (longer travel than stock, but stock offset).


1120181735 by Nate, on Flickr

The guy I bought the frame from included an FSA headset, but I decided for giggles to keep this bike to as many North American-made parts as possible. Cane Creek is just down the road from me, so I got a CC 110 headset (there were already 3 110 headsets on different bikes in my house, and a 40, so it was sortof an obvious choice). The headset was delivered yesterday. I pulled out a parts bin stem for now, so I could put my parts together. The seatpost is one I use occasionally when I need to pull the dropper post from another bike for service. It just so happens to fit this bike, so that's a pleasant circumstance that allows me to throw this one in the workstand while I work on it.


1214182256 by Nate, on Flickr

I've decided that I'm going to build the wheelset for this bike. I'll be using Industry Nine hubs (another local company) with the new microspline freehub body (for the new XTR 9100 bits). Not sure which rims yet, but I'm leaning towards RF Arc30. Either way, there's a cool wheelbuilding class locally that I can take.

http://appalachianbicycleinstitute.com/


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## pulsepro (Sep 13, 2007)

Awesome! Looking forward to the final build.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Subscribing


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Aw yeah. Got the all clear to sign up for the wheel building class to make sure I get a spot.

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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

My Pedalhead has been sold!

It's such a great frame 

Enjoy the build!


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

You know that bike can take a 2.6" 29 tire. Depending on the tire you can use in your area and terrain I'd consider an Arc35 and you could go 40 if you can run xr2 or xr4 2.6" without chopping up the sidewalls. Depends on the tire you need.
Good luck. Building your own wheels is the best.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

This is going to be good.

I built a set of wheels in college and it was a very enjoyable experience. I used a wheelbuilding book by Jobst Brant and they turned out great.

I think that will be a very fun bike.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> Harold, I'm gonna Spam your thread ... my size Large Pedalhead needs a loving home, so if anyone reads this thread and is in the thneed.
> 
> It's such a great frame
> 
> Enjoy the build!


I wish I could afford it for a mud season bike to save wear on my Megatrail.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

eb1888 said:


> You know that bike can take a 2.6" 29 tire. Depending on the tire you can use in your area and terrain I'd consider an Arc35 and you could go 40 if you can run xr2 or xr4 2.6" without chopping up the sidewalls. Depends on the tire you need.
> Good luck. Building your own wheels is the best.


Just stop right now.

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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Ohhh, so you’re looking for wheel building ideas!

Well then, I build most of my wheels, got started on muni wheels a while back.

There are a few 29” rims I like for a balance of cost, weight, and durability: Duroc 40/50 are tough rims, build up well. Velocity has improved their quality, I like the Duslky. WTB Scrapers are good rims too. 

The Pedalhead will easily fit s 2.8 tire, wider rims spread out the tire and increase volume.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Ohhh, so you're looking for wheel building ideas!.


Not really. And I am especially not looking to go as big as absolutely possible. I already have a fatbike. I want something different than that with this bike.

I might try 2.6 tires, but still want to be able to run 2.4/2.5 tires to get the tread pattern/casing combo I want. So def not interested in 40mm rims. Going to stay around 30mm wide. Maybe as wide as 35, but no more than that.

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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Duroc 40 have a 35mm ID. I’ve run 3” on them and it was okay, nice middle of the road rim width, gives you choices. I can’t remember a time when I had rims that were too wide.

What hubs are you gonna use?

I’ve had pretty good luck with the OneUp Dropper 170mm. On a large frame it fit just right for full extension on 165mm cranks, 33” inseam. OneUp dropper levers duck, go with Wolftooth.

It’s a super fun riding frame.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Duroc 40 have a 35mm ID. I've run 3" on them and it was okay, nice middle of the road rim width, gives you choices. I can't remember a time when I had rims that were too wide.
> 
> What hubs are you gonna use?
> 
> ...


Industry Nine hubs. Made just a few mi from my house. This build has a heavy local/US/NA made influence, so that's a consideration. Part of why I'll be putting the I9 stem on it, whenever they release the 31.8 clamp version. But I also have access to a few good deals, and I'm going to use them where possible. There will be a bit of Race Face on this build, because that's one brand I have access to good pricing.

This bike cannot fit 29x2.8 as far as I've been able to tell, so that's not even in consideration. I don't think I want wheels that large in diameter, anyway. MAYBE one day in the future, I'll build a 27.5+ wheelset for this bike, and I'll be looking at 2.8-3.0 tires. But not now. I just want a "vanilla" 29er build.

Rims can be too wide when they square off the tires too much, and make too abrupt of an edge when cornering. Don't want that. I've got multiple wheel builders I trust recommending 30mm wide for what I want. So that's what I'm going to get. My wife's 26er has 31mm rims and 2.4ish tires and they're a touch on the square side (about as much as I'm willing to tolerate), so I expect I'll like the shape of 2.5-2.6 on that rim size.

I'm pretty sure I won't be able to fit a 170mm Oneup dropper post based on initial measurements I've made. The 150 should fit, though. Not sure what would work if I got the 170 and shortened it. My measurements aren't that detailed. I haven't put TOO much effort into choosing a dropper yet, but I've looked a little. I seem to remember reading in the Pedalhead thread that folks have had issues with the actuator on Fox Transfers (and therefore the RF Turbine R) interfering with the seat tube bend. So I'm paying some attention to the shape of dropper actuators. About all I've decided is that any post with an actuator that offsets towards the rear of the post (ie: Fox Transfer/Turbine R) is out of contention. The dropper post is going to be one part where neither price nor location of manufacture is going to be a major consideration. It's going to be the dimensions/fit first, and reliability/function second.


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## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

Harold said:


> Not really. And I am especially not looking to go as big as absolutely possible. I already have a fatbike. I want something different than that with this bike.
> 
> I might try 2.6 tires, but still want to be able to run 2.4/2.5 tires to get the tread pattern/casing combo I want. So def not interested in 40mm rims. Going to stay around 30mm wide. Maybe as wide as 35, but no more than that.
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Hey,
I recently built a set of Praxis AL32s with hope pro 2 evos. I really like the look and weight of the rims (3mm asym). Haven't had a chance to ride them yet, unfortunately. Here's a pic:








Depending on your budget, you probably might lean towards their carbon 32 offerings.
The rims shipped with a fitting tubeless ready rimtape, nice touch  And they're based in Santa Cruz, fwiw.

PS: just read your note regarding the dropper. Chainreactioncycles has the Crank Bros Highline for sale, in case this is of interest.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

29 x 2.8” fit fine, already running them. Of course you need a fork to manage the tire, Pike 27+/29 works fine, regular Pike won’t fit a fatter tire than 2.5


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Rynee said:


> Hey,
> I recently built a set of Praxis AL32s with hope pro 2 evos. I really like the look and weight of the rims (3mm asym). Haven't had a chance to ride them yet, unfortunately. Here's a pic:
> View attachment 1229843
> 
> ...


Those are some interesting rims. What I'm not clear on right now is how the build would be affected by using an asym rim, being that the frame itself has an offset. Talking to the course instructor about that.



Nurse Ben said:


> 29 x 2.8" fit fine, already running them. Of course you need a fork to manage the tire, Pike 27+/29 works fine, regular Pike won't fit a fatter tire than 2.5


Either way, not interested in 29x2.8.


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## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

Harold said:


> Those are some interesting rims. What I'm not clear on right now is how the build would be affected by using an asym rim, being that the frame itself has an offset. Talking to the course instructor about that.


Glad I could provide some inspiration  
I cannot make a statement with regards to the offset frame in particular. But the asymmetric rim itself has the advantage that the spoke tensions between drive side and non-drive side spokes are closer to eachother than with symmetric rims.
I'm using this spoke calculator to get the required spoke length, and it also shows you the recommended tensions:
https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/
I'm curious what your instructor will say regarding the offset frame.
and I can second the statement made above - buiding your own wheels is quite a satisfying afterwork pastime.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Rynee said:


> Glad I could provide some inspiration
> I cannot make a statement with regards to the offset frame in particular. But the asymmetric rim itself has the advantage that the spoke tensions between drive side and non-drive side spokes are closer to eachother than with symmetric rims.
> I'm using this spoke calculator to get the required spoke length, and it also shows you the recommended tensions:
> https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/
> ...


My understanding of the frame offset (it is also 3mm, to the drive side, which means the wheel needs to be offset 3mm to the NDS to compensate) is that it also allows for more equal spoke tensions. So it seems to me that putting an asym rim in combination with a frame offset would negate that benefit. That's without running the numbers, of course. But maybe the result would be even better spoke tension. I'm not at the point just yet to run those numbers to get the final answer.


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## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

Harold said:


> My understanding of the frame offset (it is also 3mm, to the drive side, which means the wheel needs to be offset 3mm to the NDS to compensate) is that it also allows for more equal spoke tensions. So it seems to me that putting an asym rim in combination with a frame offset would negate that benefit. That's without running the numbers, of course. But maybe the result would be even better spoke tension. I'm not at the point just yet to run those numbers to get the final answer.


ah, very interesting. please let me know what your instructor's opinion is on that topic. cheers, and good luck with the build. looks rad by the way!


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Harold said:


> My understanding of the frame offset (it is also 3mm, to the drive side, which means the wheel needs to be offset 3mm to the NDS to compensate).


Just passing thru but I don't think I get your concern... Frame stays are offset in relation to each other so they drive train has good chainline/clearance - a rim will be right where it needs to be without modifications to dish to compensate. Theses rims are hole offset to try and provide more even tension/bracing. At the end of the day, it wouldn't matter - hub is where the hub is... rim will be dished accordingly. Any offset built into the frame would have no bearing whatsoever - everything lines up and a properly tensioned and dished wheel is just that... Maybe I'm missing some nuance here tho.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> Just passing thru but I don't think I get your concern... Frame stays are offset in relation to each other so they drive train has good chainline/clearance - a rim will be right where it needs to be without modifications to dish to compensate. Theses rims are hole offset to try and provide more even tension/bracing. At the end of the day, it wouldn't matter - hub is where the hub is... rim will be dished accordingly. Any offset built into the frame would have no bearing whatsoever - everything lines up and a properly tensioned and dished wheel is just that... Maybe I'm missing some nuance here tho.


You are missing something. Rim has to be dished 3mm to nds to account for the frame offset, which shifts the hub to the drive side. Manufacturer states this clearly.

Without redishing the rim, it will not be centered on the frame.

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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Harold said:


> You are missing something. Rim has to be dished 3mm to nds to account for the frame offset, which shifts the hub to the drive side. Manufacturer states this clearly.
> 
> Without redishing the rim, it will not be centered on the frame.


Heh. That is wild. For the record, I still didn't believe you. Went to the site - only saw "12 x 148 Boost rear hub, offset 3 mm to the driveside for optimal chainline and clearance"... And said, that's still vague - asymmetrical or really offset? Finally saw what you referenced in the owner's manual (they called it 'wheeled trued with 6mm spacer')...

https://ridegg.com/Shared/images/Pedalhead-Owner-s-Manual-RevC.pdf

"Assembly - Rear Hub Offset
12x148 Rear Hub, Offset 3mm to the Drive Side
6mm Spacer on Non Drive Side True Wheel With 6mm Spacer
Center rim
6mm spacer
Note: You do need to use a 6mm spacer on a traditional truing stand to offset the hub 3mm."

No horse in this race. I'll just call it different and leave it at that.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> Heh. That is wild. For the record, I still didn't believe you. Went to the site - only saw "12 x 148 Boost rear hub, offset 3 mm to the driveside for optimal chainline and clearance"... And said, that's still vague - asymmetrical or really offset? Finally saw what you referenced in the owner's manual (they called it 'wheeled trued with 6mm spacer')...
> 
> https://ridegg.com/Shared/images/Pedalhead-Owner-s-Manual-RevC.pdf
> 
> ...


A little different, but not new. Cannondale has been doing a similar offset for years. They have been doing it since before boost was a thing.

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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

I am also looking forward to seeing how this turns out. You will really dig building your own wheels. It takes the satisfaction of building your own bike to a whole new level. I am in the process of building up a Canfield N9 and although I pretty much have everything for the build sitting on my work bench, so far have just got the wheels built. Hoping with some time off for the upcoming holidays to get her finished. Hope Pro 4s with WTB i35 Asym rims and going to give Bontrager XR4 2.6 tires a try.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

So I've got my reservation set for the wheelbuilding class near the end of March. It's awhile off, but it also means I can take my time to save up and buy the parts for that wheel build with no rush.

I've decided on the bones of the wheel build at this point.

Industry Nine hubs (boost, centerlock, microspline freehub body).
Race Face Arc30 rims. I hear good things about these from other wheel builders. I think the 30mm width is going to fit what I want better than something wider. Also going with the symmetric rims. A couple reasons why. After speaking to the course instructor, it's simply not necessary with the offset frame. But also, she recommends against asym rims for all mountain builds, because there is a bit of twisting on hard impacts that reduces the life span of the rims.
DT Competition spokes and brass nips.

Hopefully I'll be ready to order the hubs within the next couple of weeks.


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## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

Hey, thanks for the feedback. Those are interesting inputs. I haven't had any issues with my asyms yet. Hope it will stay that way 
Your build plans sound awesome, especially the i9 hubs. Would be great if you kept on sharing info and pics!, Unfortunately those are way above my budget...
All the best
Rynee


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Rynee said:


> Hey, thanks for the feedback. Those are interesting inputs. I haven't had any issues with my asyms yet. Hope it will stay that way
> Your build plans sound awesome, especially the i9 hubs. Would be great if you kept on sharing info and pics!, Unfortunately those are way above my budget...
> All the best
> Rynee


As for the asym rim thing, she didn't speak of it like asym rims would suddenly fail on an AM build. It's a long term thing. She said that the offset spoke bed will result in slight twisting of the rim on impacts, which will cause extra spoke tension variances. Those things result in less long term stability (reads to me like more frequent truing over the long term).

Fun thing about this build is that I have no absolute budget. I just wait and save to buy parts when I have the cash. The only limit on budget is really time. More expensive = takes longer to build. My goal is to be able to start riding it this spring.

And now, no matter what, I won't be finishing it until the wheelbuilding class in March at the earliest. But probably a bit after that. Parts availability will be an issue at some point. It always is when building a bike like this.

I think after I get everything purchased for the wheels, the drivetrain is going to be the next step. That'll be where parts availability will be the biggest issue. I'll be tying myself into the new XTR 9100 by getting the microspline freehub body, so it's not like I'll have any alternatives for the shifter, RD, and cassette.

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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

Nice parts for the wheel build. This class that you are going to be taking, do they provide instruction on how to determine actual rim ERD and required spoke length?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

BrianU said:


> Nice parts for the wheel build. This class that you are going to be taking, do they provide instruction on how to determine actual rim ERD and required spoke length?


Good question. The information here is all I've got for the class "curriculum" so far.

APPALACHIAN BICYCLE INSTITUTE

I'm going to assume that something like that will be included. According to the instructor, they usually use parts for instruction that the institute has on hand for wheel builds, but you can bring your own parts if you want to keep the wheels you build.

I've asked the instructor if I also need to supply my own spokes (and therefore determine the needed lengths before class). I assume that I'll need to bring the spokes I want to use, also.

I've looked a little bit into spoke calculators (a couple different ones) and I've definitely seen that determining spoke length appears to be the biggest PITA of the whole process. Race Face provides an ERD for their rims and then tells you need to add twice the nipple head height, which is a spec I can't find ANYWHERE (but some spoke calculators ask for, of course). Another spoke calculator detailed a method for measuring the actual ERD, which requires you to have the rims in hand, a couple of sacrificial spokes (and I assume the same nipples you'll be using in your build) and actually measure. Which is great if you have a bunch of spoke lengths on hand already and you can just choose what you need...but sucks ass if you don't have any spokes at all and need to order what you need.


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## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

BrianU said:


> Nice parts for the wheel build. This class that you are going to be taking, do they provide instruction on how to determine actual rim ERD and required spoke length?


I use manufacturers data for erd, and this for spoke length calc:
https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/
Has served me well so far.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Rynee said:


> I use manufacturers data for erd, and this for spoke length calc:
> https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/
> Has served me well so far.


Yeah, that was one of the ones I looked at. And the one where I got stuck because Race Face's ERD measurement spec requires that you add twice the nipple head height to get the "true" ERD.

https://www.raceface.com/media/RF Arc rim info sheet rim.pdf
https://www.raceface.com/media/RF ERD calculation.pdf

The asym field is also assuming an asym rim. My frame is offset, so I'm not quite sure how to account for that in the calculator.

DT's calculator didn't even give me any way to account for a frame offset.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

Harold said:


> I've looked a little bit into spoke calculators (a couple different ones) and I've definitely seen that determining spoke length appears to be the biggest PITA of the whole process. Race Face provides an ERD for their rims and then tells you need to add twice the nipple head height, which is a spec I can't find ANYWHERE (but some spoke calculators ask for, of course). Another spoke calculator detailed a method for measuring the actual ERD, which requires you to have the rims in hand, a couple of sacrificial spokes (and I assume the same nipples you'll be using in your build) and actually measure. Which is great if you have a bunch of spoke lengths on hand already and you can just choose what you need...but sucks ass if you don't have any spokes at all and need to order what you need.


While it is possible to get away with using the data provided by the manufacturer, it can be a real crap shoot. When taking your own the actual measurements, it is very common to find the manufacturer's provided information varies from your own values. No idea why, but if you search over in the Wheels and Tires forum, this is a very common subject. That is why I asked if they covered this in the class. I figured it out, but man....it sure would have been nice to have had the opportunity to done it first hand with an experienced wheel builder.

I would buy your rims and nipples now, then pick up a couple spokes from a LBS. Something around 290mm. For measuring ERD, you do not need to use the same spokes you are going to use for the build. Considering that cut spokes are typically a non-returnable item and 64 are not exactly cheap, I prefer to know exactly what I need. And like most things, the first time is a PITA, but it gets easier with experience. I have had good luck with the following website for information.
Wheels

This wheel builder's site has many of the most common rims and hubs in their spoke calculator database.
https://www.prowheelbuilder.com/

Interesting about the 3mm offset rear hub spacing and not sure how to figure that into the equation. I would check with GG, but I bet you will be able to use the same spoke length for the drive and non-drive sides.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

No change on spoke length with a 3mm offset, the difference is insignificant.

Just build it like a normal wheel, then offset 3mm.

Honestly, you don’t have to offset, you have plenty of clearance ... 3mm is less than an 1/8”.

Building wheels is not that hard, just learn the pattern and the reason for the pattern, lace the wheel, then start tensioning. You don’t learn to build wheels in your first wheel build, you simply overcome your anxiety over building wheels and get a overall understanding of how the process works.

Even if you build a couple wheelsets every year, you’ll still need to freshen up your brain with a read through.

and don’t blow a bunch of money on a tensionometer, either borrow one in the future or learn to pluck spokes. Learning to true the wheel and take out/prevent flat spots is the hardest part.

No alloy nips! Brass is badass!!


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

For offset rims or frames, you can simply adjust the hub center to flange distances you put in to the calculator to compensate. A common situation might be using rim with 3mm offset in the rear with the nipple holes shifted to the NDS. Decrease the NDS flange to center distance by 3mm and increase the DS center to flange distance by 3mm. Agree that 3mm is pretty small and usually won't significantly change the spoke length, unless the spoke cone angle is pretty large, which can happen with wide hubs, big flanges, and small ERDs. IMO, it's best to input the data accounting for the offsets to minimize the chance of surprises.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Lone Rager said:


> For offset rims or frames, you can simply adjust the hub center to flange distances you put in to the calculator to compensate. A common situation might be using rim with 3mm offset in the rear with the nipple holes shifted to the NDS. Decrease the NDS flange to center distance by 3mm and increase the DS center to flange distance by 3mm. Agree that 3mm is pretty small and usually won't significantly change the spoke length, unless the spoke cone angle is pretty large, which can happen with wide hubs, big flanges, and small ERDs. IMO, it's best to input the data accounting for the offsets to minimize the chance of surprises.


Good tip. Yes, the instructor recommends accounting for the frame offset in calculations to minimize surprises. She rides a mtb with a frame offset, too (she didn't say which one), and has experience with it. She likes to figure out spoke lengths down to the mm.

I've been fiddling with some spoke calculators this afternoon, and I'm going to have to get the rims and measure them. Only one calculator (pro wheelbuilder) has the rims I'm using in their database, and they're only adding 2mm to RF's posted ERD spec. Seems awful small to me to assume the nipple head height is 1mm. But if I used that number in all the calculators I used, I got the exact same spoke lengths, so at least there's consistency in the calculators.

I can't even use Sapim's calculator right now. The dimensions it's asking for, I can't measure or calculate until I get the rims AND the hubs in hand. I can fudge the rim dimension since sapim just separates eyelet-to-eyelet distance and the rim thickness (which, combined, would be the ERD that RF provides), but based on the dimensions I9 supplies for its hubs, Sapim wants the opposite.

https://www.sapim.be/spoke-calculator

The Pro Wheelbuilder calculator spits out those dimensions, but I don't trust them. It didn't have the correct dimensions for I9 hubs in its database, anyway, and I had to correct them.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

Lone Rager said:


> For offset rims or frames, you can simply adjust the hub center to flange distances you put in to the calculator to compensate. A common situation might be using rim with 3mm offset in the rear with the nipple holes shifted to the NDS. Decrease the NDS flange to center distance by 3mm and increase the DS center to flange distance by 3mm. Agree that 3mm is pretty small and usually won't significantly change the spoke length, unless the spoke cone angle is pretty large, which can happen with wide hubs, big flanges, and small ERDs. IMO, it's best to input the data accounting for the offsets to minimize the chance of surprises.


This about what I was thinking. The Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead owner's manual states that you do need to use a 6mm spacer on the NDS with a traditional truing stand to offset the hub 3mm.


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## Mike2MTB (Mar 22, 2018)

Harold, so cool to watch you build out the GG PedalHead frame ... and the Made In America theme ... nice. Just started researching this bike. Looks like fun. Good luck on build.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Harold said:


> I've looked a little bit into spoke calculators (a couple different ones) and I've definitely seen that determining spoke length appears to be the biggest PITA of the whole process.


This is so funny. You're getting some good advice here - I'm going to break this down with an analogy... It's like losing your virginity.. one might just want to get the job done, another wants to learn how the music is made so to speak. I assume you're in the latter camp, so you'll need to set your expectations accordingly - no one is going to learn the ins and outs of anything with a experience of 1 but you'll know more than you did before and, if you are a keen observer, you'll learn many of the things that are important. You have an analytical mind so once you get a frame of reference for this it'll all make more sense and you'll learn what matters and where to place your trust.

Some random tidbits:

Spokecalc, DT Swiss are decent calculators - steer clear of prowheelbuild one. FYI - DT Swiss assumes DT Swiss nipples which can be a problem if you are using a different mfgr in longer length ones that thread differently. Google this if you want or we can revisit if you have questions.

ERD is most important measurement you'll take. I think it's good for you to do this long-hand w/ the nipples you'll use and 2 sacrifice spokes on your actual rims in hand.

Most reputable hub mfgrs will have correct specs on their hubs. I don't usually bother remeasuring this anymore unless I have some strange hub. A quick search to see if there's a know spec issue is smart.

I run my numbers thru several spoke calcs and almost always round my fractions down when given a choice. It is always better to have slightly short than slightly long. Too long and you'll never achieve proper tension. The adage: measure twice, cut once. When it matters, my personal sanity check is 2 calcs from scratch with my input numbers resourced.

If you just want the job done, know that if you get a proper number on your spoke length this minor dish amount is of little consequence - it is within tolerance. I do encourage you to play with the spoke calcs and see what numbers actually have influence. Play with the flange distance, offset, spoke hole size, etc use the calcs that show the visual so you can see the effect. You'll find many of the numbers have little influence (to a point) and certain numbers matter greatly.

Given that you are taking a course, you should have access to proper tools. That's a great baseline. Use the dish tool. Learn it in this context. Also I personally own and like the tensionometer. I've built ummm 100s of wheels and it's a time saver and useful tool for me. For one time wheel build, probably not an investment but since you'll have access - get the right tension via tool and as Ben says learn the pitch and feel in your hand.

Also as Ben said, you're just getting comfortable with this and learning along the way. Unless you totally miss something, you'll have a nice wheelset by the end. And if you do miss something, a great learning lesson.

Ok... Here's the other deal-e-o and something to be mindful when you get there - yeah, spoke length is the PITA part as it requires calcs and measurement. The real craftsmanship in the build comes down to the refinement during the build. Lacing your pattern is basic - I'm assuming you've done the basic right to this point. But working the tensioning and adjustment thru the final steps is what differentiates the wheelbuild. Knowing what to address (trueness, hops, dish, runout, etc) at the correct time is what to keep your eye open for.. It'll be more apparent in future builds where you see the effect.. Anyway bringing the tension in increments, with precision and destressing the spokes (ABD - always be destressing) is your mantra.

^All that said, and maybe this relieves some anxiety - but I've built wheels from recycled junk.. reused and wrong spoke lengths, rehab'd rims, barely spent any time on the build - going thru the motions while having conversations and done in like 15-20min. And you know what? I have wheels like this in use 20 years later and they're fine. Not the mark to shoot for but, more to the point, is while doing it perfect is your north star, there's a lot of wiggle room that will yield a completely functional wheel.

Roger Musson's book is a great read and value. Recommended and easy to understand. Get it on pdf.

(crap this got long - I blame coffee)

Enjoy the process!!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> (crap this got long - I blame coffee)
> 
> Enjoy the process!!


Good stuff.

My thought process on this is that because it's a class and I'll have access to all the tools, I'm going to do this 100% "by the book" so I want to account for the frame offset in the wheel build, whether it makes a notable difference in the calculated spoke lengths or not. I'm not exactly going to be building full wheelsets in my garage frequently, but I do want to deal with anything I need to on the bikes in my garage, and this is pretty much the last thing I've not done. I'll at least be buying a respectable truing stand after the course (and after I get this bike finished) so I can handle truing duties at home. I also have a feeling that my fatbike wheels are going to need rebuilding again before too long. I've already had to have them rebuilt once. Damn Nextie rims. A truing stand has been on my list of wanted shop tools for quite a long time as it is.

Also, I've also done individually many of the steps in the wheel building process, but have never dealt with final tensioning or adjustment before. I've replaced individual spokes. I've done minor in-frame truing. I've laced up hubs before. Hell, I even did a hack-job wheel once. I was given a wheelset back in college, where the drive side spokes were chewed to hell from the chain jamming behind the cassette. I replaced all the drive side spokes on that wheel, trued it in the frame, and rode it for years.

I do plan to use DT spokes and nipples on this build, so there's that. Any particular reason you don't recommend the pro wheelbuilder calculator? Aside from the fact that it didn't have the correct dimensions of the hubs programmed in, it gave the same outputs as the others so long as the input dimensions were the same.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Harold said:


> I do plan to use DT spokes and nipples on this build, so there's that. Any particular reason you don't recommend the pro wheelbuilder calculator? Aside from the fact that it didn't have the correct dimensions of the hubs programmed in, it gave the same outputs as the others so long as the input dimensions were the same.


Yeah, you'll do great. I think your "by the book" process is the right way; you'll learn the most. Just don't get paralyzed.

You're right that the prowheelbuild calc 1) has bad numbers 2) will often result in the same lengths given basic scenarios

But - as soon as you deal with some, ummm, less typical you'll find it has assumptions built into it that you'd need to understand the inputs more intimately to massage the results. At that point, you'd have been better off with a calc that has full measurements built into it explicitly (eg: drilling offsets, etc).

Bottom-line: gives false sense of 'out of the gate' accuracy since it has (wrong) programmed #s, the 'assumptions' are blackbox so it's just better using a reliable calc where you can either provide the inputs explicitly or know what the assumptions are. I do think the visual presentation is nice tho.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> Yeah, you'll do great. I think your "by the book" process is the right way; you'll learn the most. Just don't get paralyzed.
> 
> You're right that the prowheelbuild calc 1) has bad numbers 2) will often result in the same lengths given basic scenarios
> 
> ...


Nah, I don't tend towards getting paralyzed. I could figure it out myself with a good book, a truing stand, and some cheap parts to screw around with. the point of taking the class is to cut down on on the screwing around and reduce mistakes. I do better when I'm given a systematic approach and the tools to address "complications" that might arise.

Good point about baked-in assumptions. I did notice that some of the calculators had additional fields for different variables.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

Carl Mega said:


> Roger Musson's book is a great read and value. Recommended and easy to understand. Get it on pdf.
> 
> (crap this got long - I blame coffee)
> 
> Enjoy the process!!


Very well written and informative post Carl! 2nd the recommendation on the book, can't believe I forgot to mention that.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Isn't it nice to build just what you want? No one to answer to but oneself. I did that with the Canfield EPO project. I ended up with some parts that ran the spectrum of lower priced, mid-priced, expensive and over priced. The Expensive parts were the DVO fork which I thought best for the travel. Overpriced parts were for bling, hey a little bling never hurts except the wallet. Lower priced parts for those that would take a beating and get replaced quickly anyways. Mid-priced for good value and reputation.


Other than cleaning and oiling, not a tweak was made since August. two- four rides a week and lots of mud.

Hope you have the same fun as I did. I'm sure you will! LOL


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

scycllerist said:


> Isn't it nice to build just what you want? No one to answer to but oneself. I did that with the Canfield EPO project. I ended up with some parts that ran the spectrum of lower priced, mid-priced, expensive and over priced. The Expensive parts were the DVO fork which I thought best for the travel. Overpriced parts were for bling, hey a little bling never hurts except the wallet. Lower priced parts for those that would take a beating and get replaced quickly anyways. Mid-priced for good value and reputation.
> 
> Other than cleaning and oiling, not a tweak was made since August. two- four rides a week and lots of mud.
> 
> Hope you have the same fun as I did. I'm sure you will! LOL


The bikes I've built have been the most reliable I've owned by far. The specialized I bought stock and upgraded over the years eventaully got to that point but it took some time while I replaced the crappy parts.

It's nice when I can just grab a bike and go ride.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Placed my order for rims today.

Looks like Race Face has decided to clear out their symmetric Arc rims. Not sure what that's about, but it appears the Arc 30 rim is the most popular one. They don't have any stock left at all in house, and availability at other mail order houses is iffy.

Rather than screwing around with trying to source them somewhere (not even CRC has them), I decided to go with DT Swiss XM 481 rims. Looks like DT wants these built with washers (the rims come with washers and nipples).


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Bought a couple tools today to allow me to measure out the ERD on these hoops.

Bought the Park spoke/cotter/whatever ruler/gauge and a Helios vernier caliper.

I've wanted to buy a good vernier caliper for awhile, but they're expensive when new (good ones start at about $75 and can go well into the hundreds). Not interested in a battery-powered one or a dial caliper with its sensitive mechanisms. Vernier FTW for reliability and simplicity. Ebay turns out to be a good source for quality used ones for really good prices. I don't buy much of anything there anymore, but I don't need brand new calipers when used ones are plentiful and cheap.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

That's some expensive wheel building you got going on 



Harold said:


> Bought a couple tools today to allow me to measure out the ERD on these hoops.
> 
> Bought the Park spoke/cotter/whatever ruler/gauge and a Helios vernier caliper.
> 
> I've wanted to buy a good vernier caliper for awhile, but they're expensive when new (good ones start at about $75 and can go well into the hundreds). Not interested in a battery-powered one or a dial caliper with its sensitive mechanisms. Vernier FTW for reliability and simplicity. Ebay turns out to be a good source for quality used ones for really good prices. I don't buy much of anything there anymore, but I don't need brand new calipers when used ones are plentiful and cheap.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> That's some expensive wheel building you got going on


Nah. Look on ebay for yourself. Those calipers are very affordable on the used market. Like I said, I have wanted a good set for awhile, anyway.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Rims and brass squorx nipples arrived today (from different mail order houses - I'm impressed).


0107191445 by Nate, on Flickr

My cat, Stitch, wanted in on the unboxing fun. I set the box down, turned my back, and she immediately went inside to check it out.


0107191442 by Nate, on Flickr


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Nice... Actually I have found wheelbuilding to be incredibly fun. Roger Musson's stuff (wheelbuilding.co.uk?) is great and is what I have used and done awesome with on my couple builds. Looking at building up a Smash this season and really debating on whether I want to go the way of building everything myself or going with one of their build kits sans wheels and just stick to those.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I ended up buying Musson's book so I can read through it prior to the class.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Build em yourself, it just takes some time. We'll do it together, just need pizza and beer 



gregnash said:


> Nice... Actually I have found wheelbuilding to be incredibly fun. Roger Musson's stuff (wheelbuilding.co.uk?) is great and is what I have used and done awesome with on my couple builds. Looking at building up a Smash this season and really debating on whether I want to go the way of building everything myself or going with one of their build kits sans wheels and just stick to those.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I've been poking around and reading on other components for this build. Pretty sure I want to put 4 piston brakes on this bike. I also am interested in trying out something a bit different. Currently on bikes in my garage, there are a bunch of Shimanos, some SRAM Level T (wife's bike), BB7, and TRP Spyre (also wife's bike). I have no interest in willingly installing a SRAM brake on my bike.

I've been reading a bit about the Hayes Dominion brakes. I'm liking what I'm reading about them so far, and they're a strong candidate for this build, I think. The caliper adjustment set screws look really clever.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Harold said:


> I've been poking around and reading on other components for this build. Pretty sure I want to put 4 piston brakes on this bike. I also am interested in trying out something a bit different. Currently on bikes in my garage, there are a bunch of Shimanos, some SRAM Level T (wife's bike), BB7, and TRP Spyre (also wife's bike). I have no interest in willingly installing a SRAM brake on my bike.
> 
> I've been reading a bit about the Hayes Dominion brakes. I'm liking what I'm reading about them so far, and they're a strong candidate for this build, I think. The caliper adjustment set screws look really clever.


I'm putting TRP Slates on my Megatrail this week. I'll let you know how they work.

My SLX/XT combo will go from my bike to my son's to replace his Level T's.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Curveball said:


> I'm putting TRP Slates on my Megatrail this week. I'll let you know how they work.
> 
> My SLX/XT combo will go from my bike to my son's to replace his Level T's.


I'll be curious about your thoughts. I wasn't aware of these, but I was aware of the Quadiem, which more or less look like a top level version of the Slates.


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## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

Harold said:


> I've been poking around and reading on other components for this build. Pretty sure I want to put 4 piston brakes on this bike. I also am interested in trying out something a bit different. Currently on bikes in my garage, there are a bunch of Shimanos, some SRAM Level T (wife's bike), BB7, and TRP Spyre (also wife's bike). I have no interest in willingly installing a SRAM brake on my bike.
> 
> I've been reading a bit about the Hayes Dominion brakes. I'm liking what I'm reading about them so far, and they're a strong candidate for this build, I think. The caliper adjustment set screws look really clever.


Have you also given a thought to Magura's MT Trail set? 4 piston front, 2 piston rear, and there are two versions - a quite competitively priced one (the set w/o discs can be had online for about 150 euros) and a higher end one (520 euros). 
Ah, but your build is US-focused, then they're not really an option...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Rynee said:


> Have you also given a thought to Magura's MT Trail set? 4 piston front, 2 piston rear, and there are two versions - a quite competitively priced one (the set w/o discs can be had online for about 150 euros) and a higher end one (520 euros).
> Ah, but your build is US-focused, then they're not really an option...


I have had Magura brakes in the past (Julies from the early 2000's) and was happy with their performance for a long time before I wore them out and got unresolvable sticky pistons. Big thing I didn't like about them was that sourcing pads was a PITA. Not as big of a deal now that online ordering is more prevalent, but that and the shitty bleed procedure are the big reasons I went Shimano years ago.

As for the US thing, I'm being a lot more flexible WRT that for things like brakes and drivetrain.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Have been watching Race Face's website for a few months now. I have a pro deal I can use with them (but has to be on THEIR website). They've been out of stock on 170mm Turbine cranks for awhile. Finally saw them back in stock and placed the order so I could be sure I got a set. 

Here's hoping that someone releases a Shimano 12spd friendly chainring before I finish the build. According to the folks in the Shimano 12spd thread, the new Shimano quick link isn't friendly with most existing narrow/wide chainrings. It rides up on them, at least until they're somewhat worn. Some have taken to using a SRAM Eagle quick link as a fix. I suppose doing that would be my worst case scenario, which isn't a horrible thing.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

TRP Quadiem are solid brakes, no issues with them after three months of hard use, temps over 100deg, temps under 30deg. Big levers for big hands. Very durable, nice feel, highly adjustable levers. They stop like a four piston brake. The Shimano XT four piston are a nice brake too, got a set on my wife's Pivot.

That said, I doubt you'll need a four piston brake on a hardtail in the Asheville area, it just aint steep or long enough to warrant the cost. A nice set of Shimano twins will work fine and cost half as much.



Harold said:


> I've been poking around and reading on other components for this build. Pretty sure I want to put 4 piston brakes on this bike. I also am interested in trying out something a bit different. Currently on bikes in my garage, there are a bunch of Shimanos, some SRAM Level T (wife's bike), BB7, and TRP Spyre (also wife's bike). I have no interest in willingly installing a SRAM brake on my bike.
> 
> I've been reading a bit about the Hayes Dominion brakes. I'm liking what I'm reading about them so far, and they're a strong candidate for this build, I think. The caliper adjustment set screws look really clever.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> TRP Quadiem are solid brakes, no issues with them after three months of hard use, temps over 100deg, temps under 30deg. Big levers for big hands. Very durable, nice feel, highly adjustable levers. They stop like a four piston brake. The Shimano XT four piston are a nice brake too, got a set on my wife's Pivot.
> 
> That said, I doubt you'll need a four piston brake on a hardtail in the Asheville area, it just aint steep or long enough to warrant the cost. A nice set of Shimano twins will work fine and cost half as much.


My Bucksaw currently has XTR M9020's with 203F/180R, and it's just a 100mm xc-ish sort of bike. I could absolutely make use of better braking. I don't really deal with fade issues so much. That's not what I'm looking to address. I'd like a little bit smoother and more consistent modulation (wandering bite point annoyance). I also find myself at times even with the 203mm rotor on the front, using the top end of my available braking power more than I'd like. To the point where my braking finger cramps up on me on the longer, chunkier downhills where I'm using the brakes more.

And who knows, maybe I'll put the bigger brakes on the Bucksaw and the XTR's on the Pedalhead in the end. Or maybe I'll like the bigger brakes on the Pedalhead and want some for the Bucksaw, too.


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## nitrousjunky (May 12, 2006)

Cool seeing you're taking the time to build this thing up exactly the way you want. Also cool to see a Pedalhead being built by someone here in WNC!



Harold said:


> She rides a mtb with a frame offset, too (she didn't say which one)


Guessing her By:Stickel.

I'm going to take that class at some point as well!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

nitrousjunky said:


> Cool seeing you're taking the time to build this thing up exactly the way you want. Also cool to see a Pedalhead being built by someone here in WNC!
> 
> Guessing her By:Stickel.
> 
> I'm going to take that class at some point as well!


Fwiw, I bought the frame from a guy in Charlotte who is also on mtbr. Amazingly, he has never come out here to ride.

I am stoked for the build. Can't wait to get it on some dirt.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## nitrousjunky (May 12, 2006)

That's interesting! 

BTW you picked a good time to have a build to be focused on too. This has been a miserable winter.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

nitrousjunky said:


> BTW you picked a good time to have a build to be focused on too. This has been a miserable winter.


That's no joke. I have a fatbike and didn't even get to ride it in the big snowfall we got. My neighborhood got 18" which was WAY too deep to ride in. And I couldn't drive to ride somewhere with less snow, because the snow was too deep for my little car to get out of the neighborhood. My wife needed the Subie that weekend to get to work, so I was left with my little Honda. And 20hrs with no power, so I had to keep the fireplace going.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I was ready to order hubs, and started seeing I9's teasers (I was going to get Torch Classic hubs for my build), so I decided to wait and see. The super duper high engagement was a take it or leave it feature for me, but the claims of improved durability over Torch got me. I'm a sucker for better durability (cheap, light, strong - pick 2, right?). I went ahead and ordered a set of the Hydra Classic hubs for my wheel build (with Micro Spline FHB, so I'm now committed to XTR M9100, too). I'm going to confirm spoke lengths in the next week or two, and get those ordered, too. I've already run the numbers through the DT spoke calculator. I just need to confirm with others. At that point, I'll be ready for the wheelbuilding class next month.


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## nitrousjunky (May 12, 2006)

Awesome, yeah the increased durability on these new hydra hubs sounds great. Bearing life has been my only nit pic with my previous i9 hubs.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Got all my wheel parts now. Wheelbuilding class will be in just under a month.


0226191747 by Nate, on Flickr


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Harold said:


> Got all my wheel parts now. Wheelbuilding class will be in just under a month.


Nice! I'm having fun following this thread.
=sParty


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Very nice and good selections... What are you initial thoughts on the Hydras?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

gregnash said:


> Very nice and good selections... What are you initial thoughts on the Hydras?


Nice. The externals are the same as torch. All that has changed is inside. Sure, engagement is super high and you can hear and feel that, but the major part of it, the extra pawl engagement from flex in the system, is something you just can't tell until you ride them. I have handled several sets of hydras now, but have not ridden any.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Wheel building class is this weekend.

I've got all the rest of the parts on order, except for the bash guard. Will hopefully get that on the way soon.

And will hopefully be able to get it on the trail in a couple of weeks.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Harold said:


> Wheel building class is this weekend.
> 
> I've got all the rest of the parts on order, except for the bash guard. Will hopefully get that on the way soon.
> 
> And will hopefully be able to get it on the trail in a couple of weeks.


What happened to the very slow build you were talking about?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jcd46 said:


> What happened to the very slow build you were talking about?


Wife got tired of a pile of bike parts growing veeeerrrrryyyyy slowly in the office, and authorized me to just buy all the rest of it (this evening, in fact).

I was really only down to relatively few parts needed, anyway.

Drivetrain (bought as a kit), brakes, seatpost, pedals, and a bunch of small parts.

All together, cost maybe about as much as the wheels or a touch more.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Harold said:


> Wife got tired of a pile of bike parts growing veeeerrrrryyyyy slowly in the office, and authorized me to just buy all the rest of it (this evening, in fact).
> 
> I was really only down to relatively few parts needed, anyway.
> 
> ...


Nice!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jcd46 said:


> Nice!


Pretty excited for the build, and to be able to finally get it on the trails.


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## Millennial29erGuy (Feb 5, 2017)

Harold said:


> Pretty excited for the build, and to be able to finally get it on the trails.


Sweet. So you got xtr 12speed? Which brakes did you end up getting?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

the_joe said:


> Sweet. So you got xtr 12speed? Which brakes did you end up getting?


Yep. With the 10-45 cassette.

Brakes are Hayes Dominion

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

OOOOOhhhhh I am interested to hear what you think of the Dominions when you get riding!

And I thought XTR 12spd was 10-51?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

gregnash said:


> OOOOOhhhhh I am interested to hear what you think of the Dominions when you get riding!
> 
> And I thought XTR 12spd was 10-51?


either 10-45 (with med cage derailleur) or 10-51 (with long cage derailleur). You can run 2x with the 10-45 if you use the long cage rd, also. 10-45 is plenty of range for me if I get the right chainring to set the low gear where I want it. I was hoping someone would release a 28t compatible chainring for CINCH cranks, but the lowest available right now is a 30t from Wolftooth. So I'll run it for awhile and hope I don't kill myself on the climbs. The 11spd 10-45 was the one that Shimano got rid of, even though the shifter still has the 11/12spd switch.

I have read really good things about the Dominions. I have liked Shimanos a lot, but feeling I want to try some 4 piston calipers and felt like trying out a new brand of brake that's not SRAM. I have enough braking power for the riding I do with XTR M9020 brakes with 203/180 rotors, but I feel like to get that power, I need to squeeze the levers harder than I want, which contributes to hand/arm fatigue on fast/sketch downhills. Also the fine touch of Shimano 2 pots requires quite a bit of precision to hit the amount of braking force I need, which contributed to hand fatigue on long descents with lots of braking.

My wife's bike has Guides and I absolutely hate the feel. Reviews are saying the Dominions feel a good bit different. Not quite as on/off as Shimano, but moreso than SRAM. Sounds like I'll probably be happy. We'll see. I really like the idea of the little caliper adjustment set screws. Such a little thing, but so clever to simplify the process.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Went to the wheel building class the other day.

Man, I'm a sloooowwww wheel builder. To be fair, I was also the only "home mechanic" signed up for the class. The other guys were all shop wrenches adding skills. I got them mostly built on Saturday. The front wheel just needs an adjustment to dish and tension (can probably be taken care of at the same time). The rear is assembled with most of the tension it needs, but I haven't looked at the dish or true of that one yet, so it'll need some more work. Headed back to ABI on Wed to finish up.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Yeah my builds are never quick but I would rather do it slowly, taking my time to make sure it is right than try to speed through it.. Built two full sets and one random and after years of hard riding they have barely gone out of true.

Did they teach you any special tricks for taking the load out of the spokes when you are tensioning up? Most books I read say just to put a thick glove on and squeeze the spokes together (parrallels) but that rarely does enough for me. I took a 2x4 and drilled a hole in it large enough for just the thru-axle caps to sit in and then put my weight on it. That always gets me nice tension releases but can't remember where I learned that?

And I built the Roger Musson truing stand out of his book and with the Park Tools tensioning app, their tension meter and the stand I was able to get everything nice, tru(ish) and dished pretty quickly.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

gregnash said:


> I took a 2x4 and drilled a hole in it large enough for just the thru-axle caps to sit in and then put my weight on it. That always gets me nice tension releases but can't remember where I learned that?


Sounds similar to what I do. I have an old thick phone book and lay it on the garage floor. I lean over and press down on the wheel, doing it in increments by turning the wheel and grabbing it in a different location until I get a full revolution. Or until I do not hear any pops or pings. Also read that and cannot remember where. Seems to work great. Three sets trouble free and never a sound when riding.

The last set I built, lacing the spokes to the hubs and rims went quick. Almost looked like I knew what I was doing. Still like to go real slow when it comes to the tension work on the stand, always striving for that perfect build.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

gregnash said:


> Yeah my builds are never quick but I would rather do it slowly, taking my time to make sure it is right than try to speed through it.. Built two full sets and one random and after years of hard riding they have barely gone out of true.
> 
> Did they teach you any special tricks for taking the load out of the spokes when you are tensioning up? Most books I read say just to put a thick glove on and squeeze the spokes together (parrallels) but that rarely does enough for me. I took a 2x4 and drilled a hole in it large enough for just the thru-axle caps to sit in and then put my weight on it. That always gets me nice tension releases but can't remember where I learned that?
> 
> And I built the Roger Musson truing stand out of his book and with the Park Tools tensioning app, their tension meter and the stand I was able to get everything nice, tru(ish) and dished pretty quickly.


No, my instructor didn't cover anything different than the thick glove and squeezing the parallel spokes method. I HAVE read more than one place about doing very frequent tension releases, so I have been doing that a whole lot more frequently than the instructor specifically said to. Probably part of why my build has taken much longer than the other students.

I'm also the only student who didn't have access to the necessary tools at home or at work to finish and/or tweak my wheel build, which is why the instructor is letting me come back on Wed to finish. She's teaching a custom class for a couple folks that day, so there's some extra room in her shop for me to work.

I might sit down at some point and make Musson's truing stand. I was just looking at it and most of it seems perfectly doable, though I might need to track down a neighbor with more extensive tools for a couple tasks. I'm also not a big fan of his jaws for thru axles. I might make a 2nd set that are thru axle friendly to hold the hub instead of needing to buy a bunch of qr axles to fit all the different hub dimensions I have.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

I purchased something similar to this for the jaws and they work perfectly.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

gregnash said:


> I purchased something similar to this for the jaws and they work perfectly.


good point. do you still put a skewer in with Musson's stand? It seems like a little bit of clamping force at the axle is kinda important with his design just to keep everything in place, since his stand doesn't handle clamping force at the base like Park's does.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Harold said:


> good point. do you still put a skewer in with Musson's stand? It seems like a little bit of clamping force at the axle is kinda important with his design just to keep everything in place, since his stand doesn't handle clamping force at the base like Park's does.


Negative. I just skoot the arms of the stand close enough together to put enough tension the the adapters that it holds the wheel in there nice and firm. Since really only one of the arms is "mobile" I put in a couple wingnuts to allow for pushing the mobile arm to create the tension and then tighten the wingnut down to hold things in place. Never has caused me any issues.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

gregnash said:


> Negative. I just skoot the arms of the stand close enough together to put enough tension the the adapters that it holds the wheel in there nice and firm. Since really only one of the arms is "mobile" I put in a couple wingnuts to allow for pushing the mobile arm to create the tension and then tighten the wingnut down to hold things in place. Never has caused me any issues.


Cool. Just found these, which look to offer a touch more axle diameter flexibility. I do have some wheels with 10mm endcaps, as well as the more common 15 and 12mm diameters.

https://problemsolversbike.com/products/tools/truing_stand_accessories_-_25444


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Looks like I'll be able to finish this build and get the Pedalhead on the trail next weekend. There's currently rain in the forecast. Hopefully the chances drop throughout the week and it ends up being limited time/amount. But, I currently have practice with the NICA team scheduled for Sunday, so worst case, I wind up doing a gravel ride on it for the inaugural shakedown ride, and maybe sneak off onto some singletrack after practice.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I9 did a demo event at a local shop tonight (the one where I bought my Hydra hubs) so I stopped by to heckle them about when the 31.8 stem is coming.

I bought an inexpensive stem to use in the meantime, but the I9 stem is really what will complete my build.

They were vague about timing, but were very clear that it is definitely coming.

Was worth it just for the free beer they were handing out. Plus, I needed a cable for my dropper post, anyway.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

Hi Harold,
Great to hear you had a good experience with the wheel building class, and that your build is coming along nicely. Any new pics you'd like to share? 
Cheers!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Rynee said:


> Hi Harold,
> Great to hear you had a good experience with the wheel building class, and that your build is coming along nicely. Any new pics you'd like to share?
> Cheers!


Not yet. Once I finish the wheels I will. The wheelbuilder got a couple of me actually building the other day. I thought about taking my own, but I was trying to actually finish on Saturday.

Then this weekend appears to be the big finish, so I'll have some completed pictures to share. Depending on how early the last bits arrive on Friday, I might be able to take it out for a spin on Saturday afternoon, which would be nice. Sunday's forecast is kinda iffy.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold, it only takes a couple hours to build a set of wheels, what are you guys doing, drinking beer and watching You Tube videos??

Get to it!!



Harold said:


> Not yet. Once I finish the wheels I will. The wheelbuilder got a couple of me actually building the other day. I thought about taking my own, but I was trying to actually finish on Saturday.
> 
> Then this weekend appears to be the big finish, so I'll have some completed pictures to share. Depending on how early the last bits arrive on Friday, I might be able to take it out for a spin on Saturday afternoon, which would be nice. Sunday's forecast is kinda iffy.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Harold, it only takes a couple hours to build a set of wheels, what are you guys doing, drinking beer and watching You Tube videos??
> 
> Get to it!!


lol. like I said, I'm slow.

I also made a bonehead mistake that set me back on time. Forgot the nipple washers at home when I collected my parts the day before. so I laced everything for the first wheel before lunch without the washers so I could follow along with the instruction. then at lunch I had to drive home and get the washers, then remove each nipple and install them so I could proceed with tensioning. I never really did manage to catch up to everyone else. thankfully the class was held fairly close to home.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Endless frustration with the wheel build. Wouldn't be as much of an issue if I had a truing stand at home right now to be able to sit down and finish. But having to drive 10mi each way to the shop where I took the class each time the instructor has a couple hours to let me work just got to be too frustrating for me. The front wheel is done, at least. The rear is close, except something I don't quite understand has resulted in the dish of the wheel being significantly off in the frame (even though it was dead center on the stand). I probably picked a wheel build that's too complicated for my first one (the whole Guerrilla Gravity frame offset business). Anyway, the instructor is finishing off the rear wheel for me sometime today. She thinks that the particular truing stand adapters she uses in her shop might be related to the problem. Anyway, she's dealing with that and I'll be picking up the bike and wheels from her tomorrow (I took the frame over yesterday so we could check alignment in the frame, and it's a good thing I did).

My box o parts from Germany arrived with my drivetrain and brake bits today, a day sooner than estimated.


0328191354_HDR~2 by Nate, on Flickr


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Wheels are done. Building the rest of it tonight.









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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Nice job Harold! We are all anxious to see the build!

Not even a teaser of the progress


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jcd46 said:


> Nice job Harold! We are all anxious to see the build!
> 
> Not even a teaser of the progress


Tonight's progress. Major parts bolted on. Trimming and adjustments tomorrow. Probably need to track down the correct hydraulic fluid for these brakes. Def gotta trim the hydro lines. I just ought to assume I will need to bleed them afterwards. I always do.

These WTB tires were absolute monsters to install. Especially the Trail Boss in the rear where I installed the Huck Norris insert. I think I may also try Orange Seal instead of Stans. Need to get more sealant anyway.

Won't be installing the dropper till I'm ready to take it out of the workstand. Absolute last thing.

The Dominions, interestingly enough, came with both resin and sintered pads. Resin were installed, so I will try them out at first. They will certainly be different than shimano's resin pads (which I don't care much for). But I may try half resin half sintered, too. I have read about folks doing that, but have not done it myself.

This bike is just sick, though.









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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

That drive train is so shiny!

Thanks for the update!


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## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

Coming together very nicely Harold, congrats! Wheels look mint as well, solid job. Lusting for more pics..! 
Cheers


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## Millennial29erGuy (Feb 5, 2017)

Looking good with the black and red


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## nitrousjunky (May 12, 2006)

Looking good! Go with the Orange seal, I've been using it or TruckerCo in everything. Stans of late, sucks IMO.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Wooohooo!

All done.


0330191909_Burst11 by Nate, on Flickr


0330191911 by Nate, on Flickr

I'm really surprised...the shop I have been using as my main shop actually had EVERYTHING I needed today. Bunch of little things, but particular stuff. Walked in, walked out, got everything finished. The brake bleed took me a little longer than I'm used to. But then again, I'm used to Shimano brakes. Once I got the hang of these Dominions, it went great. Love the 3 bleed ports. Didn't need all of them today, but they're there if I do. They feel incredible. Really solid grab similar to what Shimanos offer, but with a bit wider band of modulation than Shimano offers. Yet not so far as to feel like mush like SRAM. Installation and alignment was dead easy. Easiest brake for caliper alignment that I've ever messed with.

The adjustment of the Oneup dropper was easy...and a pain in the ass. LOL. So at first, I couldn't figure out why the post wasn't actuating and why the cable end kept falling out. Turns out, there's a little washer inside the actuator that was tilted and messing things up. The shortening process was a pain in the ass because I only needed to shorten the drop length by 14mm. At least Oneup warns you that it gets more fiddly the shorter you cut the shim.

The bike rides great. The M9100 is really nice. The shifter has firmer clicks than the M9000 (which is firmer than previous gen stuff), but the derailleur is absolute BUTTER. My driveway is steep AF, and downshifting under power is so smooth you might as well be on level ground soft pedaling.

I still have the tires at 30psi, ensuring that they seal up. Even with the tires pretty much rock hard, the bike rode great. I'm sure once I get the pressure down to riding pressure, the bike will come alive.

Weather would have been ideal for an inaugural ride today, but I just didn't have time. I'll get it out tomorrow, though. Less than perfect, but perfectly decent weather. Riding with the NICA team tomorrow at Dupont. Taking them up to the top of Cedar Rock. I'll probably be with the beginners or slow intermediates, so we'll probably out-and-back the more gradual side. But after practice, I'll head back up so I can rip down Big Rock.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Cool!! When you get a chance can you weight it? The PH is a bit more modern than my 2017 EPO so if I want to go to steel that's a good choice. Riding a 25lb bike spoils a person.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

scycllerist said:


> Cool!! When you get a chance can you weight it? The PH is a bit more modern than my 2017 EPO so if I want to go to steel that's a good choice. Riding a 25lb bike spoils a person.


Sure. I had it in a shop yesterday and thought about it, but I wasn't totally done yet and didn't want to weigh it just yet.

I will check my old fish scale, but it might be dead if I remember right.

Most everything is reasonably light, except the frame and the tires, fwiw. Based on lifting it onto the roof rack, I am gonna guess 29lbs. We'll see after I get it on a scale.

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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Congrats Harold, looking sweet!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

This bike is absolutely killer.


0331191500a by Nate, on Flickr

I was taking it a bit easy at first, because I'm still feeling it out and getting used to it, but damn this thing is rad. I started playing around a bit more as the ride went on. Aiming over and through the chunky stuff rather than seeking out the smooth lines. Got a rim strike because the rear tire didn't totally seal and had a slow leak all day. I'm retaping the rim now (more accurately, letting the rim dry off after I've scrubbed it clean). Pretty sure the tyvek tape I used instead of stans tape was the culprit. At any rate, the Huck Norris insert did its job well. Softened the rim strike just enough that I didn't have to worry about rim damage.

Stopped at The Hub after my ride to grab some tubeless tape, and had them throw the bike on the scale just for giggles. It comes in at 31.25lbs, which is a touch more than I expected. Must mean my Bucksaw is heavier than I thought.  At any rate, the Pedalhead rides way lighter than it is. Of course, I bet with lighter tires and no insert, I could get it below 30lbs.

I'm going to have a blast on this bike this summer.


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## AOK (Jan 25, 2004)

Harold said:


> damn this thing is rad.


Pedälheads are awesome and very fun. Best hardtail I have owned.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

She's lookin' good, Vern!
=sParty


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

That's awesome and good job on the wheels. Yeah the offset for the rear is a bit weird from what I have heard from those that build their own. But many frames have a slight offset aren't dead straight. 

Anyways, get out there and shred on her!!


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

Looks great! What do you think of those hubs?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Rim re-tape is exactly what the rear tire needed. Pressure held all night.

Might get out and goof off in the neighborhood later this afternoon. I forgot to put the wheel sensor for my Garmin on before my ride yesterday, so I need to get it calibrated (it used to be on my road bike) before I ride more trails. A friend is in the area with his family for spring break right now, and we're talking about riding later this week. More flowy singletrack (perfect for this bike) at Tsali and again at DuPont.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

BrianU said:


> Looks great! What do you think of those hubs?


The Hydra hubs are incredible. Definitely quieter than Torch. It's kinda obvious when I'm riding with folks who have Torches (and there are a LOT of those on the trails around here), but the sound type is close enough that most probably won't be able to tell that they're something different. Time will tell if they're still loud enough to be used to signal my approach on busier trails. They also roll really nice. I haven't ridden anything especially slow and technical yet to take advantage of the engagement.

It's kinda funny - for this being a black hardtail, it's already grabbed a bit of attention at the trailhead. So far, only one person has picked up that the drivetrain is different. And probably only because of the 3 black cogs on the cassette. I think it's the square tubing on the frame that catches people's attention. Not many GG's in the area, and most of those are full suspensions.

So far I'm really happy with the fork, too. Hits a nice balance between plushness and supportiveness for me.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

The bike looks awesome Harold.

Glad it's working great for you.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

@Harold What do you think of the Hayed Dominion A4s?!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

gregnash said:


> @Harold What do you think of the Hayed Dominion A4s?!


They feel great. Better than shimano. Better than sram guide.

Also, bleeding, while more complicated than shimano by a bit, is still easy. and 3 bleed ports help you make sure you get ALL the air out. Definitely glad I bought a generic kit with fittings for almost every manufacturer. All I needed was the fluid.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Harold said:


> They feel great. Better than shimano. Better than sram guide.
> 
> Also, bleeding, while more complicated than shimano by a bit, is still easy. and 3 bleed ports help you make sure you get ALL the air out. Definitely glad I bought a generic kit with fittings for almost every manufacturer. All I needed was the fluid.
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Nice... aside from the fork that is probably one of the first things I will be upgrading on my GG The Smash. Heard decent things about the SRAM Code R that it comes with but still not 100% on them. Fork is definitely going to be a must in the near future (Stock YARI RC).


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

gregnash said:


> Nice... aside from the fork that is probably one of the first things I will be upgrading on my GG The Smash. Heard decent things about the SRAM Code R that it comes with but still not 100% on them. Fork is definitely going to be a must in the near future (Stock YARI RC).


I've heard good things about the Codes, but I'm leery after SRAM's demonstrated ability to repeatedly make shitty brakes.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

gregnash said:


> Nice... aside from the fork that is probably one of the first things I will be upgrading on my GG The Smash. Heard decent things about the SRAM Code R that it comes with but still not 100% on them. Fork is definitely going to be a must in the near future (Stock YARI RC).


GG can get you a good price on an MRP down the road if you become interested.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Curveball said:


> GG can get you a good price on an MRP down the road if you become interested.


Thanks for the info... thats good to know.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

0403191425_HDR by Nate, on Flickr

Loving this bike!

Took it out for a mellow Pisgah ride (Headwaters Rd. to Cove Creek Trail) and it was such a ripping good time. It climbed great up the gravel. I dialed myself WAAAAY back to make sure I didn't drop my wife on the climb, and it was so much easier than climbing with my Bucksaw in the same sort of conditions.

Once the trail pointed down, it got even better. There were a few occasions where it was very obvious I was riding a hardtail, but they mostly weren't the times you'd think. The most technical spots on the trail, I couldn't tell. It was very obvious when I was on high speed chattery stuff, but small drops were nothing. Roots weren't an issue. Slow, techy rolldowns weren't an issue, either. Didn't have anything too big on this ride, but I'm certainly not intimidated to step it up on this bike at all.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Also...my tire pressure woes in the rear tire continued. 

I appear to have found the culprit, though. Soon enough before my ride that I was able to get it fixed without futzing with my tires on the ride. Valve core on the rear e13 valve was leaking. Damaged seal, it looks like. Orange seal may have contributed to it...there were glitter pieces jammed in there and causing problems.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Replacement cable guides from GG came yesterday while I was out riding, so I put those on today. Much better than the ghetto trimmed plastic packaging I was using to get by.


0405191833 by Nate, on Flickr

I also switched the semi-metallic pads to metallic pads on the Dominions. I was getting an occasional vibration thing on the semi-metallic pads, especially under hard braking. It was weird. I could modulate the brakes to exactly the point where they would start to howl and vibrate and play a tune with my rear brake, it was that consistent. I've been wanting to try the metallic pads out, anyway, so figured it'd be a good time to try them.

Yesterday's ride.


IMG_20190405_002558_131 by Nate, on Flickr


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

FWIW, switching to the metallic pads made all the brake noise go away.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Looking great man! I've always enjoyed build threads and building my own bikes from scratch.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Not sure how many have seen this thread, but another PH owners is getting some serious brake mount flex on his, wasn't sure if any of the other owners could shed some light on this 
https://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/entire-caliper-moving-laterally-1101085.html


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

LyNx said:


> Not sure how many have seen this thread, but another PH owners is getting some serious brake mount flex on his, wasn't sure if any of the other owners could shed some light on this
> https://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/entire-caliper-moving-laterally-1101085.html


lol, I commented in that thread. no, mine does not do that


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Rode Spencer Gap in Pisgah yesterday.

If you know the trail, the upper part of the descent has been reworked a bit and it's pretty fast and flowy, but with a fair number of rocky sections. Not the chunkiest trail in the area by far, but it presents a nice combination of flow, opportunities to get some speed, and rocks. It was kinda the next step in increasing the rockiness for riding this bike.


0413191646 by Nate, on Flickr

And since I've said before that there are times where it's hard to tell I'm on a hardtail, moving to this one definitely made it clear that I was on a hardtail. The bike is still fast, and I set several PR's (on both climbing and descending segments), but hitting those rocks at speed was rough. I need to work on riding more smoothly, that's for sure. Too many years on a full suspension bike.

Also, I can certainly see where stiffer shoes are going to be beneficial for me moving forward. And possibly with more cushion, even.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

I've had foot problems riding fast through rocky terrain. After a couple hours the bottoms of my feet were numb even with gel insoles. Adidas has a BASF midsole that got rid of that for my riding. Looks like white Styrofoam in the Supernova(enough for me) and Ultra(thicker) models. Called Boost. They offer models with Goretex also in trailrunners.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

eb1888 said:


> I've had foot problems riding fast through rocky terrain. After a couple hours the bottoms of my feet were numb even with gel insoles. Adidas has a BASF midsole that got rid of that for my riding. Looks like white Styrofoam in the Supernova(enough for me) and Ultra(thicker) models. Called Boost. They offer models with Goretex also in trailrunners.


Just a few minutes of a particularly rocky spot was enough to make my feet a bit sore. Had to stretch and walk around a bit after that section until they eased up. My 5.10 Freerider Contacts are a couple seasons old and will probably need replacing this season. I think I primarily need sole stiffness, but a little extra cushion wouldn't hurt.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

How's the Ribbon fork working for you?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Curveball said:


> How's the Ribbon fork working for you?


it's outstanding. I think I might soften it up just a touch, but it's easily the best fork I've ever used.

I appreciate how supportive it is when I'm out of the saddle with just a light bit of low speed compression damping. the ramp cartridge works as advertised for bigger hits. I just think I want it a touch more linear earlier in its travel so the ramp cartridge can work a bit more later.


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## stixxs (Mar 12, 2018)

Heard he stole it.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Harold said:


> Just a few minutes of a particularly rocky spot was enough to make my feet a bit sore. Had to stretch and walk around a bit after that section until they eased up. My 5.10 Freerider Contacts are a couple seasons old and will probably need replacing this season. I think I primarily need sole stiffness, but a little extra cushion wouldn't hurt.


I don't have efficiency as a higher priority than comfort. I need to be able to ride to have fun. I have Freerides in a closet. I only used them once for my trails. I'm out of the saddle for most of the time up and down with weight on the pedals. Got to have the cushion. The Boost layer in Adidas doesn't wear out like in other shoes. Continental tire material for the tread. The uppers stay cool in the Summer but that's a tradeoff because the material that works for ventilation isn't as hard-wearing. I'm trying the Goretex versions now.






Good interface with stubby pins or rounded pins.

.







The white stuff is the BASF Boost.
https://www.adidas.com/us/supernova-gore-tex-shoes/B96282.html

I'm using these for morel season too. They run a half size small or more.


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## Frosty2019 (Jan 27, 2019)

eb1888 said:


> I don't have efficiency as a higher priority than comfort. I need to be able to ride to have fun. I have Freerides in a closet. I only used them once for my trails. I'm out of the saddle for most of the time up and down with weight on the pedals. Got to have the cushion. The Boost layer in Adidas doesn't wear out like in other shoes. Continental tire material for the tread. The uppers stay cool in the Summer but that's a tradeoff because the material that works for ventilation isn't as hard-wearing. I'm trying the Goretex versions now.
> View attachment 1247527
> Good interface with stubby pins or rounded pins.
> 
> ...


They are great shoes, I have several pairs, but they would be absolutely useless as bike footwear for me. Too soft on the upper and zero toe protection.

Big supportive pedals and impact pro's for me and that seems to keep foot fatigue away and comfort at a good level on the hardtail.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Frosty2019 said:


> They are great shoes, I have several pairs, but they would be absolutely useless as bike footwear for me. Too soft on the upper and zero toe protection.
> 
> Big supportive pedals and impact pro's for me and that seems to keep foot fatigue away and comfort at a good level on the hardtail.


Yeah, I am definitely feeling more like this on the shoe matter. Never had a chance to try on any impacts, but the ones I have seen on the trail have been bulky and hot-looking. Being that I ride in the southeast, that's a concern, too. I did a ride recently where there were 15 major stream crossings that soaked my shoes. And more I didn't even bother counting that were smaller.

So, I think something different might be on order when I replace my Freerider Contacts (which eb doesn't seen to understand are totally different from the regular Freeriders, which I also own, but have been retired from riding duty). Not totally sure what it is yet.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

I love these!
https://www.adidasoutdoor.com/five-...U-GwbIESQaAqQ5EALw_wcB&dwvar_FT45_color=Black


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Harold said:


> My 5.10 Freerider Contacts are a couple seasons old and will probably need replacing this season.


I replace my Freeriders every year as they get soft. They are fine in every other respect, but my feet need a bit more support then they offer once beaten up for a full year.

That said I have tried much stiffer shoes and didn't like them due to the lack of pedal feel. So it's a bit of a balancing act to get the right level of stiffness vs. flex.

We ride year round here so if a shoe lasts a year I can live with that.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jncarpenter said:


> I love these!
> https://www.adidasoutdoor.com/five-...U-GwbIESQaAqQ5EALw_wcB&dwvar_FT45_color=Black


How do they compare to other 5.10 shoes? Freerider series? Impact series? You don't exactly offer up any details, especially regarding my concerns about stiffness and shock absorption. I am currently leaning towards the Freerider Pros, in all honesty. I had the opportunity to demo a pair of them on the trail a couple years ago. They were definitely stiffer and had more cushion than the regular Freeriders I was using at the time, but I felt they deadened feedback from the trail too much, so I bought Freerider Contacts (which are intermediate between the regular Freeriders and the Freerider Pros on stiffness and cushion). Now I'm seeing the advantages of even more stiffness and cushion, and for that matter, 5.10 says the Pros dry faster, which is something else I want.

I will probably also be looking at other options on the market before I buy anything, though. The last time I bought shoes, most of the competitors to 5.10 weren't available. So I plan to look around.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

vikb said:


> I replace my Freeriders every year as they get soft. They are fine in every other respect, but my feet need a bit more support then they offer once beaten up for a full year.
> 
> That said I have tried much stiffer shoes and didn't like them due to the lack of pedal feel. So it's a bit of a balancing act to get the right level of stiffness vs. flex.
> 
> We ride year round here so if a shoe lasts a year I can live with that.


That's a good point. Riding here is also year round (except on days like today where we've had 2 inches of rain by noon and my phone is blowing up with flood warnings).


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

vikb said:


> I replace my Freeriders every year as they get soft. They are fine in every other respect, but my feet need a bit more support then they offer once beaten up for a full year.
> 
> That said I have tried much stiffer shoes and didn't like them due to the lack of pedal feel. So it's a bit of a balancing act to get the right level of stiffness vs. flex.
> 
> We ride year round here so if a shoe lasts a year I can live with that.


Have you considered THESE? I now have them on all my bikes...yes, road bike too!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

jncarpenter said:


> Have you considered THESE? I now have them on all my bikes...yes, road bike too!


I've tried some my friends have and I didn't like them. The friends who bought them have all gone back to normal platform pedals. They would have given me their pedals if I wanted them. I'm glad they work for you. Some people seem to love them. Other people not so much.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

vikb said:


> I've tried some my friends have and I didn't like them. The friends who bought them have all gone back to normal platform pedals. They would have given me their pedals if I wanted them. I'm glad they work for you. Some people seem to love them. Other people not so much.


Pedal width is a far more critical dimension for me, and those pedals are simply too narrow for my feet. I am not interested in super long pedals. While they might address issues from overly flexible shoes, SOME shoe flex is actually helpful as it lets you wrap your foot around the pedals some. These overly long pedals prevent that from ever happening. Bike James should stick to his fitness programs.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Harold said:


> Pedal width is a far more critical dimension for me, and those pedals are simply too narrow for my feet. I am not interested in super long pedals. While they might address issues from overly flexible shoes, SOME shoe flex is actually helpful as it lets you wrap your foot around the pedals some. These overly long pedals prevent that from ever happening. Bike James should stick to his fitness programs.


Correct. He has sold a lot people on what is nothing more than his interpretation of the mechanics and kinesthetics behind the pedal stroke. What he doesn't tell you is that really it takes more than the 100days of riding to really feel whether or not the pedals are a true fit for you. Much like cockpit and saddle adjustments when moving to a new bike, these things take time. He runs off the misconception that you will know right away that they are the best pedal in the world, which they are far from.

If his claims were actually that true then you would see TONS of professional (both well known and lesser known) riding them constantly, regardless of sponsorships. Pedals like the Deity T-Macs or the Nukeproof Sam Hills are pedals that are developed with the help of riders, ridden by their named riders through multiple professional races, and have shown to stand up to what their sponsors and developers say are "the best".

Bike James relies on smoke and mirrors to get people to buy his stuff. Hey if they work for you that is awesome, go ahead and pay the super expensive price for them. I will stick with my DMR Vault which offer incredible support and power from my size 11 shoe.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

gregnash said:


> I will stick with my DMR Vault which offer incredible support and power from my size 11 shoe.


Vaults are my faves as well. Width is just right for my feet (very similar shoe size to yours). I also really like that service kits are actually affordable (not the case for some pedal brands).


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Harold said:


> Vaults are my faves as well. Width is just right for my feet (very similar shoe size to yours). I also really like that service kits are actually affordable (not the case for some pedal brands).


Same here, and like the way the pins are. That was really the main seller for me, the easily replaceable nature of the pins. Even if the head where the allen key goes get deformed you can usually fit a wrench around it to get it off.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Has anyone tried the Reebok Classic Skate Steel Toe Oxford? I bash my feet sometimes so I'm considering them but can't try them on locally.


I just switched to cheapo Roc Bros wide pedals and notice an improvement for support.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

scycllerist said:


> Has anyone tried the Reebok Classic Skate Steel Toe Oxford? I bash my feet sometimes so I'm considering them but can't try them on locally.
> 
> I just switched to cheapo Roc Bros wide pedals and notice an improvement for support.


Why steel toe? Get yourself a proper pair of riding shoes that have the reinforced toe and you won't have problems. My old 5.10 VXi Elements were stellar in that regard, nice toe cap that was heavier duty but you pay the weight penalty.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

looks like my decision to go with the micro spline freehub body early because I knew Shimano was going to be trickling that down to XT and SLX eventually turned out to be rather prescient. Looks like those bits will be showing up in a few weeks, and I'll be able to get a less expensive replacement cassette when that time comes.

Interesting about the derailleurs, though. The only GS cage is the XTR one that I have. The rest are all SGS cages. One optimized for 1x12 wide range (10-51) cassettes and the other optimized for 2x12 on the 10-45.

I did wind up needing to order the little plastic cassette spacer, though. My cassette has started making an awful racket when I put power down. Cost me a whole $1 at the lbs. Couldn't find the damn thing online anywhere except Germany and I just couldn't abide buying a $1 part and having it shipped across the Atlantic. Hopefully should arrive soon so I can have a quiet bike again.


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## norbyd (Aug 30, 2009)

Looks sick! I'm very curious about Guerilla Gravity!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

The more I ride this thing and the more comfortable I get with it, the more I'm loving it.


0528191146 by Nate, on Flickr


0727191337 by Nate, on Flickr

I'm not taking many pictures of it out on the trail, and the people I ride with don't take very many pictures when riding, either. We mostly just ride and BS. I've been taking it on some burlier trails and some downhills where most people around here start to default to longer travel FS bikes. I may not be as fast as the people on those bikes who just let it rip (because that's not how I tend to ride, anyway), but I'm still there, hitting as much or maybe a a little bit more than I have on my previous/other bikes and feeling confident about the way the bike is handling the whole time. Even some fairly awkward drops.

Then when I end up on the grinding gravel climbs or the smooth slickrock (the stuff I was climbing today), I'm generally feeling pretty good about things.

I only wish someone made a 28t chainring that would both fit my crank AND the Shimano 12spd stuff. The only company who hasn't told me they're not making one is Oneup, but it's going to be awhile before they have ANY chainrings at all that will fit Shimano 12spd. I'd switch to Eagle quick links and a standard 28t ring before changing my crank so I could use the M8100 variant with a 28t chainring.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm glad you are enjoying the PH. Looks like a nice bike. :thumbsup:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Finally fessed up to the fact that I'm a wimp and can't quite push a 30-45 low gear on some of the longest, steepest climbs in my area. Did a 13mi 3,000ft climbing ride on my Pedalhead last weekend and though I PR'd the climb, I completely destroyed myself in the process. Had to stop SO.MANY.TIMES to catch my breath. Got stung by 2 yellowjackets during one of my breath-catching stops.

No PR's on the downhill segments (full Black Mtn trail in Pisgah), but did get a lot of 2nd fastest times. Since I was descending that trail already exhausted and being a bit careful because of the thunderstorm at the top and the slippery conditions, I'd say I did pretty well on that trail on a hardtail. I keep getting people asking me about my back for taking a hardtail down that trail (or anything else rowdy). It's funny, my back is the least of my worries. My legs cramp up on any bike on some of those trails (length of downhill, and amount/speed of the 2-3ft drops over and over and over), and my shoulders get sore from the amount of upper body input I need to launch off all those drops, or to roll down stuff, or boost off of stuff, or whatever. NEVER my back, not even on the hardtail.

Speaking of spots of soreness, I had ZERO arm pump this time, and this is a trail where I've dealt with that on my Bucksaw in the past. Something about the combination between the Vibrocore bars, those Hayes Dominion A4 brakes (omg, my fingers/grip NEVER got tired), and the longer travel fork. Just not an issue. Such a beautiful thing. I almost grabbed my Bucksaw for that ride, and the reason I didn't was because I've always felt like this particular descent was the one place that pushed the limits of the brakes on that bike (Shimano M9020 with 203/180 rotors).

Of course, nobody other than Shimano makes a 28t chainring that will slot right into Shimano 12spd drivetrains without making accommodations. I have RaceFace cranks, so I ended up going the "inexpensive" route and buying a steel 28t RF chainring and some SRAM quick links. Of course, in doing that, I mucked up the chainline. Have to flip the ring so it'll fit my frame. But since the ring has more offset (I think it's a 5mm offset, though it's not labeled anywhere) than my 30t Wolftooth ring, I had to remove the top guide from my MRP AMg for now. It only barely fit as it was, so I did what I should have done awhile ago and bought the 143mm spindle kit for my cranks.

Everything works now, though my chainline isn't quite as good.

Also had a local shop go over my wheels that I built to check tension and all that. They were in pretty good shape. I'd have done it, but I still don't have a truing stand or tensiometer yet. And my "touch" certainly isn't trained enough to do a really good tension check without a tensiometer yet.

I have a feeling I'll be needing to replace the tires sooner than I'd prefer. Traction-wise, the Vigilante is a great tire for Pisgah. Especially when it's wet. It grabs all kinds of off camber slippery, wet stuff and holds on almost regardless. I'm less impressed with the Trail Boss. The side knobs are too aggressive, and they fold over and become vague in corners. It's not a good thing. I rode in Knoxville, TN a couple weeks ago and rode some bermy hardpack bike park-ish stuff and that folding knob business got SCARY. Both of them are wearing faster than I'd like. 300mi on them and I'm seeing wear on the side knobs that looks like it'll progress to ripping knobs off entirely. I'm sure all of the gritty gravel and granite slickrock climbs are murder on any good, grippy tire.


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