# I have seen the light... Vassago convert



## DualRollers (Apr 24, 2014)

Since I started riding mountain bikes a few years ago, I naturally just "clicked" with single speeding. I think it had something to do with all those years of BMX, gears and suspension just seemed overly complicated to me. I went through a handful of bikes in the few years I have been back in the saddle: starting with a Cannondale Trail (first bike back in the game) then moved onto a Spesh Fatboy that I converted to SS with a Wheels EBB. Last season I bought a Trek Stache and while I hated the extremely short chainstays, I fell madly in love with 29+. I also built a second bike last winter, an On One Inbred that I ran fixed gear for the season just for the hell of it. I knew almost immediately that I would probably never ride a non-steel frame again.

So at the end of last season I decided that it was time to build something I wanted to ride for more than one season. Something that could linger in my stable for years to come. Enter the new Jabberwocky... It's literally everything I was looking for: steel with a reputation for having amazing ride qualities, 44mm headtube, 29x3 tire fit, sliding dropouts, and a geo that allows for climbing and descending (this is important with all of our punchy climbs/downs around here). I pulled the trigger as soon as they hit the Vassago site.

What turned into a late fall/early winter addiction of strategically picking every part culminated into what is, by far, the most radical bike I have ever owned. I can honestly say that I am madly in love.

The real point of this thread though, is that a lot of people come on here interested in steel frames, frames that are versatile, or just looking for a quality starting point for a single speed build. I HIGHLY recommend Vassago. This new Jabberwocky frame ticks all of the boxes for me. It is:

*Extremely versatile
*Affordable
*Rides amazing, this is the epitome of a steel frame
*Has geo that is spot on
*Customer service from Vassago is top notch


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## bankofdad (Dec 19, 2006)

Good looking ride DualRollers, did you have to gear down a tooth or two at all because of the + size tires ?


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

Thats a great bike. All ive seen for the past year when i click on the vassago website to buy a frame is out of stock. For a year on the Verhauen 29+. 

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## DualRollers (Apr 24, 2014)

bankofdad said:


> Good looking ride DualRollers, did you have to gear down a tooth or two at all because of the + size tires ?


I don't generally gear down for anything, I just force my legs pick up the slack... I even rode my full fat bike with 5" tires SS on the same gearing as a regular skinny tire. 


LaneDetroitCity said:


> Thats a great bike. All ive seen for the past year when i click on the vassago website to buy a frame is out of stock. For a year on the Verhauen 29+.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


This is exactly why I bought one as soon as they became available. The frame ended up sitting in my shop for 5-6 months because I wasn't going to be ready to build until winter... It was like torture.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Not sure what I did wrong, but I had an older Jabber for less than one year. I crashed and got hurt on that bike more times than any other bike. Maybe it was the Manitou Tower Pro fork. Maybe it was going faster and riding new trails. Maybe someone put a hex on it. I sold it and got a Karate Monkey and then a Juice and never had problems controlling the bike again.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ yours had old geo, don't you know that's dangerous? they've updated it for the better IMO, less crashy. you know what they haven't changed? NO XL!!! 

nice bike OP. i've liked the new frame since i first read about it. glad to hear it rides as good as it sounds.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Maybe it had a 71 degree head angle. I heard those are dangerous.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

DualRollers said:


> Something that could linger in my stable for years to come.


 Nice bike! Frame looks like such a winner.


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

mack_turtle said:


> Maybe it had a 71 degree head angle. I heard those are dangerous.


Only for trail riding apparently.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I see the problem. I was riding trails on an XC bike. Silly me!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> I see the problem. I was riding trails on a *knobby tired road* bike. Silly me!


ahh, there's your problem.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> ahh, there's your problem.


I dunno if you were joking but I thought that original geo sucked. Riding mtb since 1991 and until that jabber I'd never had one I couldn't manual. Sure had a nice ride though...

New bike looks sweet - 'cept that fork needs more travel. Love the colour.

Confusing that they keep reusing that name. Maybe give it a number? This the Jabberwocky 3.0?


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## nitrousjunky (May 12, 2006)

Nice looking Jabber!! Probably the best 29+ frsame option there is IMO and at a great price.

I also had some of the previous Jabber framesets. They rode great but the geometry had some serious drawbacks, this new one has WAY better geometry.


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## DualRollers (Apr 24, 2014)

The geo on this thing is definitely fixed from the old ones. I read a review of this frame one time that said it "feels like you're sitting between the wheels, rather than over them"... pretty good description after riding it. I really enjoy it, it climbs really well and still feels playful, which seems to be something that's hard to find these days with the onslaught of super short chainstay bikes.


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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

duplicate.


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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

i regret selling my old jabber and i have recently been lusting over a SS mtb to be added back to the stable. it seems like the new geo addresses a lot of shortcomings of the older design. 

too bad all size large is out of stock. hello waitlist!


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## DualRollers (Apr 24, 2014)

jct said:


> i regret selling my old jabber and i have recently been lusting over a SS mtb to be added back to the stable. it seems like the new geo addresses a lot of shortcomings of the older design.
> 
> too bad all size large is out of stock. hello waitlist!


It's my understanding that they usually sell out pretty fast... which seems to be common among the "off the shelf" steel frames that are reputable. I think Soma has the same problems with keeping stuff hanging around for very long. That's why I grabbed one of these right when they came available. Didn't want to miss out and spend my whole winter trying to source a frame.


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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

DualRollers said:


> It's my understanding that they usually sell out pretty fast... which seems to be common among the "off the shelf" steel frames that are reputable. I think Soma has the same problems with keeping stuff hanging around for very long. That's why I grabbed one of these right when they came available. Didn't want to miss out and spend my whole winter trying to source a frame.


yea their site says Large frames are due "9/1." hopefully that's not the case. luckily i have nice bikes to ride in the interim. my problem is that when i get a frame, i have little to no patience in building them up...so end up tossing a ton of money at parts instead of slowly accumulating them. lucky though that rigid SS don't require much!


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

Im pretty sure they are out of stock because the place that built their frames in Oregon went out of business. That was early 16 and they were looking for a new builder. The same builder built turner frames and thats why they dont have alloy. 

That was the story i got almost a year ago. Seems not much has changed cause they havent been in stock since.
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## DualRollers (Apr 24, 2014)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> Im pretty sure they are out of stock because the place that built their frames in Oregon went out of business. That was early 16 and they were looking for a new builder. The same builder built turner frames and thats why they dont have alloy.
> 
> That was the story i got almost a year ago. Seems not much has changed cause they havent been in stock since.
> Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


I don't know that the builder in Oregon would affect the Jabberwocky, I think that frame is made overseas. The Verhauen and I think the Fisticuffs are made in the US, which is probably what came from the builder in Oregon.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I bet you'll love yours as much as I love mine! 
I've got a 120mm fork and Nobby Nic 2.6s on in this pic, but I just picked up a Whisky no.9 fork and some 3.0 tires, so that'll be happening soon!


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

jct said:


> yea their site says Large frames are due "9/1." hopefully that's not the case.





LaneDetroitCity said:


> Im pretty sure they are out of stock...{snip}
> 
> That was the story i got almost a year ago. Seems not much has changed cause they havent been in stock since.


Don't trust the Vassago site. Even Tom says the website is undergoing a major update. I've bought stuff from them that showed as out of stock. FB message the Vassago page, someone will respond with accurate info. I've live-chatted with them on a number of occasions.


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## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

Damn you!!! I already have a rigid SS, but I'd been looking to do a 29+ SS, but never found one that met my requirements. That is until you posted this. I have everything to build up this frame except brakes. 29+ QR wheels, CHECK. 29x3.0 Chupacabras, CHECK. Krampus rigid fork, CHECK. Pimped out Shimano Octalink cranset, CHECK. Dropper post, CHECK. Carbon cockpit, CHECK. Now for them to get medium green frames in stock.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

I'm still trying to get the 2.6 NN. I may put a 120mm fork this year but so far my rigid fork with wide rims and fat tires work pretty good.


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## Stopbreakindown (Jun 27, 2011)

Nice looking Chupawocky!

What gear combo are you running/slider location?


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## DualRollers (Apr 24, 2014)

I decided to try out the "tiny drivetrain" thing for a little extra clearance over the big shelf rock that we have a lot of here. Currently its set up 26x15, which is very similar to the 32x18 I generally run... I have a 32x18 setup on standby in case this 15t rear cog starts chewing up too many chains.

Dropout is about midway.


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## Rev440x (Oct 3, 2006)

I'll throw my 2 cents in on Vassago for what it's worth. I bought a Jabber frame back in 2012 maybe, built it up and absolutely loved it. Thru my own stupid fault I got the seat post stuck in the frame. Tried like hell to get it out and damaged the frame. Knowing Vassago offered crash replacements at a discount I said what the heck and reached out to see if they would take pity on me and help out even though it was totally my fault. To my surprise I was told no problem send in the frame and we'll hook you up, so I packed up the frame and mailed it off. A few weeks goes by and I reach out. I'm told yes we have the frame but haven't looked at it yet. Few more weeks goes by, I'm told yes they've looked at it but no frames in stock, they'd send it to their builder to be fixed for $100 plus return shipping. A month goes by and I reach out, crickets, another month reach out crickets, 6 months, crickets. At this point I am obviously never seeing my frame again and I could can less but I felt I should post my experience with the company. I know they went thru a tough period and have been bought and sold a few times but come on, to snake my frame and never respond just isn't cool. Other then my subpar customer service experience the frame rocked and I would recommend their products just not their customer service.

For what it's worth.........

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## jmctav23 (Oct 16, 2010)

The new moose knuckle gives me a chubby, wish it was available in a steel so I could justify the purchase...


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

jmctav23 said:


> The new moose knuckle gives me a chubby, wish it was available in a steel so I could justify the purchase...
> 
> View attachment 1136771


Thats super ugly. And corny shaped. Plus Vassago is a poorly ran operation. They cant even manage something as basic as keeping their website up to date.

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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

Rev440x said:


> I'll throw my 2 cents in on Vassago for what it's worth. I bought a Jabber frame back in 2012 maybe, built it up and absolutely loved it. Thru my own stupid fault I got the seat post stuck in the frame. Tried like hell to get it out and damaged the frame. Knowing Vassago offered crash replacements at a discount I said what the heck and reached out to see if they would take pity on me and help out even though it was totally my fault. To my surprise I was told no problem send in the frame and we'll hook you up, so I packed up the frame and mailed it off. A few weeks goes by and I reach out. I'm told yes we have the frame but haven't looked at it yet. Few more weeks goes by, I'm told yes they've looked at it but no frames in stock, they'd send it to their builder to be fixed for $100 plus return shipping. A month goes by and I reach out, crickets, another month reach out crickets, 6 months, crickets. At this point I am obviously never seeing my frame again and I could can less but I felt I should post my experience with the company. I know they went thru a tough period and have been bought and sold a few times but come on, to snake my frame and never respond just isn't cool. Other then my subpar customer service experience the frame rocked and I would recommend their products just not their customer service.
> 
> For what it's worth.........
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


so you never got your frame back?

this sounds par for the course. i have spoken with a few other recent customers who have had issues in dealing with Tom @ Vassago.


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## Rev440x (Oct 3, 2006)

jct said:


> so you never got your frame back?
> 
> this sounds par for the course. i have spoken with a few other recent customers who have had issues in dealing with Tom @ Vassago.


Nope. I went back thru my emails for a time line. I reached in Nov 2014 and got my last reply from Tom in January 2015. I sent several emails after that with no reply and basically gave up and bought a new El Mariachi in June 2015. It's a shame because I really liked the frame and I'd still be riding it if I had greased my seat post. Again not bashing the product, frame failed because of me, I simply take issue with the customer service and the fact that I'll never see my frame again. Life goes on and I now ride a frame purchased from my LBS that I can deal with face to face. Lesson learned.

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## Rev440x (Oct 3, 2006)

And just to be clear so no one bashes me. I never asked for anything for free, I sent frame in with the understanding I was purchasing a crash replacement for $250 which was generously offered by Tom. That never happened unfortunately and he never returned my old frame. 

Hopefully he reads this and does the right thing for anyone that has issues in the future. 

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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

The current Vassago is light years ahead of the old ownership in quality and customer service fwiw. A completely different company. And to the Tool that can only find the website to complain about , if being sold out is being "poorly run" then they're poorly running it right. I have no monetary interest in Vassago but do not suffer Fools and Morons very well.


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## earlanderson (Sep 27, 2013)

Just to add to the customer service issue, I to had a poor experience, I was on verge of buying a jabberwocky 2 weeks ago, I emailed them twice within 5 days with a few questions before I pulled the trigger but I received no replies to either of my messages. If someone can't answer a few simple questions then they're not getting my hard earned cash. I have since gone elsewhere. Pity cos I was looking forward to that frame. 

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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

Is the swoopie downtube just for cosmetics? This isn't the part of the frame one looks for "compliance" is it? Even Jones uses a straight tube here, right?

I've read almost nothing positive about titanium forks on mountain bikes. Again, it strikes me as something done in the name of vanity instead of performance or value.

I know little about frame design, metal properties, etc., so go ahead, rip into me! You can start with "You haven't even ridden it..."



LaneDetroitCity said:


> Thats super ugly. And corny shaped.


I think the larger sizes look kinda cool, but I see what you're saying.


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## Rev440x (Oct 3, 2006)

tiretracks said:


> The current Vassago is light years ahead of the old ownership in quality and customer service fwiw. A completely different company. And to the Tool that can only find the website to complain about , if being sold out is being "poorly run" then they're poorly running it right. I have no monetary interest in Vassago but do not suffer Fools and Morons very well.


It's my understanding that Tom was the original owner who sold the company then bought it back a few years ago? Thought I read that somewhere. Either way I was dealing with a gentleman named Tom. Whether or not it's two seperate Toms I'm not sure.

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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> The current Vassago is light years ahead of the old ownership in quality and customer service fwiw. A completely different company. And to the Tool that can only find the website to complain about , if being sold out is being "poorly run" then they're poorly running it right. I have no monetary interest in Vassago but do not suffer Fools and Morons very well.


There's a difference between being sold out and being barely staying in business. I know the truth i said that about the website because thats the most basic thing. I could go deeper but its not worth arguing with a bunch of strangers. Plus other brands are watching.

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## Rev440x (Oct 3, 2006)

earlanderson said:


> Just to add to the customer service issue, I to had a poor experience, I was on verge of buying a jabberwocky 2 weeks ago, I emailed them twice within 5 days with a few questions before I pulled the trigger but I received no replies to either of my messages. If someone can't answer a few simple questions then they're not getting my hard earned cash. I have since gone elsewhere. Pity cos I was looking forward to that frame.
> 
> Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


Maybe reach out on social media? They seem to be more active there I'm told. I don't do Facebook or I would've reached out that way myself.

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## earlanderson (Sep 27, 2013)

Rev440x said:


> Maybe reach out on social media? They seem to be more active there I'm told. I don't do Facebook or I would've reached out that way myself.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I would but not on Facebook either. Too late now anyway as I've spent my cash with someone that can answer an email. ☺

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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

earlanderson said:


> Just to add to the customer service issue, I to had a poor experience, I was on verge of buying a jabberwocky 2 weeks ago, I emailed them twice within 5 days with a few questions before I pulled the trigger but I received no replies to either of my messages. If someone can't answer a few simple questions then they're not getting my hard earned cash. I have since gone elsewhere. Pity cos I was looking forward to that frame.
> 
> Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


i ordered a jabber 15 days ago. after some back n forth with Tom, it's supposed to be here today...hopefully...


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## Rev440x (Oct 3, 2006)

jct said:


> i ordered a jabber 15 days ago. after some back n forth with Tom, it's supposed to be here today...hopefully...


I think you will really love the frame and the way it rides, I just hope for your sake you don't have any warranty issues in the future! A company can't survive just on the reputation of its products alone. Customer service should be priority number one. I to own a small business, so I kow first hand!

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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

Rev440x said:


> I think you will really love the frame and the way it rides, I just hope for your sake you don't have any warranty issues in the future! A company can't survive just on the reputation of its products alone. Customer service should be priority number one. I to own a small business, so I kow first hand!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


exactly my concern. i know some of this last batch of jabber frames have had to get seat tubes reamed out to get more post in.

i had a green jabber from 2011-14-ish and loved that bike. i think i'll like this one even more with shorter rear end, boost, 3" wide tires etc.

also, i think FB may be the best way to get in touch with them/him. i also pinged their many emails and also left a snarky comment on their IG feed to let them know i was done playing around. then all of the sudden i got a response. go figure.


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## Rev440x (Oct 3, 2006)

jct said:


> exactly my concern. i know some of this last batch of jabber frames have had to get seat tubes reamed out to get more post in.
> 
> i had a green jabber from 2011-14-ish and loved that bike. i think i'll like this one even more with shorter rear end, boost, 3" wide tires etc.
> 
> also, i think FB may be the best way to get in touch with them/him. i also pinged their many emails and also left a snarky comment on their IG feed to let them know i was done playing around. then all of the sudden i got a response. go figure.


I'm done trying to resolve the issue. In the unlikely event he comes across this thread and wants to make it right great otherwise I'm cutting my loses.

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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

jct said:


> exactly my concern. i know some of this last batch of jabber frames have had to get seat tubes reamed out to get more post in.
> 
> i had a green jabber from 2011-14-ish and loved that bike. i think i'll like this one even more with shorter rear end, boost, 3" wide tires etc.
> 
> also, i think FB may be the best way to get in touch with them/him. i also pinged their many emails and also left a snarky comment on their IG feed to let them know i was done playing around. then all of the sudden i got a response. go figure.


That doesnt bother you? I would read this post and think, im not giving that company money. Its not about giving them the money. Its what happens after.

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## Rev440x (Oct 3, 2006)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> That doesnt bother you? I would read this post and think, im not giving that company money. Its not about giving them the money. Its what happens after.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


Exactly

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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Super bummed to hear not everyone is getting good customer service. That's really disappointing and not at all in line with my experiences. 
I bought my frame 2nd hand (was built, ridden twice and parted out.) I pinged Vassago through FB and had responses to my questions in like an hour. A few weeks later I wanted to upgrade from 135qr to 12x142 and msgd them again about the axle showing out of stock on the website, and when I might be able to get one. Vassago FB messaged me back a little later saying he had one in hand, and wanted to know if I would prefer it mailed to me or dropped off at ShadeTree bikes, a lbs near my house, because he was headed there. I told Tom I'd be right there and asked if I could buy a t-shirt too. Both were waiting for me with my name on them when I arrived at the shop 30 mins later.


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

earlanderson said:


> Just to add to the customer service issue, I to had a poor experience, I was on verge of buying a jabberwocky 2 weeks ago, I emailed them twice within 5 days with a few questions before I pulled the trigger but I received no replies to either of my messages. If someone can't answer a few simple questions then they're not getting my hard earned cash. I have since gone elsewhere. Pity cos I was looking forward to that frame.
> 
> Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


I had a similar issue. I was set to buy one of the new Optimusti 29+ that aren't on the website yet. I even ordered a new 29+ boost wheelset for the frame. I got a couple responses to emails but they went silent before my final questions were answered. I was ready order and called, but nobody answered. The emails I did receive were basically trying to get me to purchase a $2000 frame without sharing the new geo numbers or pictures. I was told the website would be updated weeks ago but it's still unchanged. Glad my money didn't go to such poorly ran company.

After that I made a deposit on a custom ti frame with Funk Cycles. Their communication is amazing. Multiple responses per day to emails before I made a deposit. We're now working on the details for my build and they have very timely responses 7 days a week. This is more expensive than Vassago, but I feel so much better about spending my money with them. The build and design process is also a lot more fun than I thought it would be, and the great customer service is a big part of that


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## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

so what are our options for a proper 29+ SS with QR sliding dropouts?


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## Rev440x (Oct 3, 2006)

Salsa El Mariachi is what I ride now. It was a 9mm QR on alernator dropouts when I bought it. Not sure if things have changed though. I changed out the plates to 12x142 thru axle. 

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## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

Rev440x said:


> Salsa El Mariachi is what I ride now. It was a 9mm QR on alernator dropouts when I bought it. Not sure if things have changed though. I changed out the plates to 12x142 thru axle.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I didn't know and El Mar could swallow a 29x30 tire.


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

slowride454 said:


> so what are our options for a proper 29+ SS with QR sliding dropouts?


Carver, maybe a smaller brand. Nothing

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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

slowride454 said:


> I didn't know and El Mar could swallow a 29x30 tire.


It cant. Not even close. He obviously didnt read what you wrote

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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

slowride454 said:


> so what are our options for a proper 29+ SS with QR sliding dropouts?


Just because a frame comes with TA dropouts doesn't mean your stuck with them. If you want/need QR dropouts you can swap out the sliders for ~$30-40 per side. Just make sure the parts are compatible and available. Paragon Machine Works is one of the major dropout manufacturers for example.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Paragon (or paragon-style) dropouts allow for both 135 qr and 12x142ta. I have a set of SS 135s in my parts box, and I'm using the ta. Vassago uses paragons, and so do most brands that offer SS capabilities. Personally, I love them. It makes more sense than the way Salsa or Trek do it.

@*OneSpeed*- Did you mean set, not side? I bought my TA with the axle for IIRC, $45. QR dropouts should be much less for the pair.

edit: I guess I don't recall what I paid for my TA sliders. I know I got them directly from Tom, but I bought other stuff so I didn't pay attention. The Vassago website says $80 with the axle included. The qr dropouts are $15 per side.


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## Rev440x (Oct 3, 2006)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> It cant. Not even close. He obviously didnt read what you wrote
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


Sorry, didn't realize he was referring to 3.0 tires. Wasn't sure what "29+" was unil now.

And upon further research Salsa doesn't even make the El Mariachi frame anymore apparently.

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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

slowride454 said:


> I didn't know and El Mar could swallow a 29x30 tire.


I haven't tried a plus tire, but looking at a 2.4 Ardent on a 23mm rim, i seriously doubt a 3" tire on a wide rim would fit.

The el mariachi are nice bikes though. My wife and I have matching rigid singlespeeds. My only complaint is lack of stiffness in the rear when using qr. I only weigh 155 and would get rotor rub when climbing out of the saddle. A dt swiss qr helped but didn't completely solve the problem.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

ARandomBiker said:


> @*OneSpeed*- Did you mean set, not side? I bought my TA with the axle for IIRC, $45. QR dropouts should be much less for the pair.


I was kind of going from memory when I was looking for TA replacements for my old Kona Unit, those were $30 per side. A quick check of PMW website shows they are available for $15 per side. Damn, not bad.


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## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

I'm looking at a new jabber and it appears that at 6' vassago says I could ride a medium or large. Any 6 footers riding a new jabber? What size frame did you go with and was that the right size?


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

jmctav23 said:


> The new moose knuckle gives me a chubby, wish it was available in a steel so I could justify the purchase...
> 
> View attachment 1136771


That's filthy. Kinda an homage to the Trek Sawyer but better fro and pounds lighter.

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## floxy (May 17, 2008)

If any of the taller guys are looking for a Knuckle I have one for sale. Great bike but don't ride MTB enough any more.

Vassago Mooseknuckle - Buy and Sell Mountain Bikes and Accessories


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

seriously considering one of the new Jabbers. I am 5'9" and would like to run it with a 120mm fork, short stem, wide bars. medium or small?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Medium.

I'm jjjuuusssst shy of 5'9", my frame is a small.
I'm running a 90mm 0* Thomson stem with 20mm spacers under and flat 750mm bars. 

It's a small because I bought it from a friend who was shorter, and after building it, decided it too similar to their VerHauen. (first world problems, right?) So I bought it 'used' with 2 rides on it. 

I was just on the border between Sm and Med, so I took the plunge, because all Jabberwockys were out of stock at the time. Had I waited, I'd have been waiting about 5 months.

I don't regret mine for a second, but if I were offered the option to switch for free (or very cheap) I would, but not because of fit. 

I actually think my bike fits awesome. 95% because of my reason is that the small frame standover is sooooooo low that I can only get a 'short' 21oz water bottle in the back cage, and the front bottle (on the down tube) is kind of tight to get out unless you use a quality side-load cage. Also, a little bit because I'm running a 350mm post almost at max height, which is aesthetically odd to me.
I don't know if you have aspirations to bikepack, but that low standover means less volume in the frame bag too.
They're minor things, but they are things I've noted in the last 8 months of ownership.


Edit: I'm currently on 29+ wheels and bouncing back and forth between a rigid Whisky 9, and a 100mm boost Reba, but if you look at post #21, I had regular 29'er wheels and a 120mm XFusion fork on it. It was great.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> seriously considering one of the new Jabbers. I am 5'9" and would like to run it with a 120mm fork, short stem, wide bars. medium or small?


I am 5'7" and ride small Verhauen, 23.6" ETT with a 80 mm stem. My other bikes are SC Highball medium 22.9" Top tube and 90 mm stem and a large SC Solo with a 24" TT and 50 mm stem. The two HT bikes are designed to be set-up very similar. The Solo is more of and AM style build. A 60mm stem on that might help bring them all to the same ETT+Stem, but I want it a bit shorter and more upright due to what I ride with it.


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## gsteitz (Sep 9, 2011)

At 5'9" my medium VerHauen felt too big. Even with a 50mm stem. I much prefer my small Jabberwocky and I know several guys taller than me that opt for the small as well.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

interesting. I realized the other day that my last few frames had a ETT of about 600mm and I always end up putting a tall, offset post on them with the saddle slammed back and a 70-80mm stem. with that setup, I still feel cramped sometimes. I would love to ride a normal seatpost with less post sticking out and a shorter stem, so medium might work better for me.


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## gsteitz (Sep 9, 2011)

It's really hard to single out just one number like ETT, but Vassagos typically have more BB drop as part of the Wetcat/Fastcat geo. Size wise, my small Jabber felt more similar to the medium frame of another maker that I ride now (both with 70mm stem). I ran the medium VerHauen with a 50mm stem and the wheelbase just seemed too big for me. 

All the measurements work together and two seemingly similar frames in geometry can ride so differently.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I will look into that. I have a totally ridiculous spreadsheet of frame geometries that I have been using to compare frame sizes and I feel that a small Jabber's stack & reach would put me back where I started: needing a stem that is too long for the wide bars I'd like to use and a flagpole of a seatpost with ton of saddle offset that cantilevers my butt too far over the rear wheel.

I found that juxtaposing two frames on the BikeGeo.net tool helps a lot to visualize these things. unfortunately, there are very few opportunites to throw a leg over bikes are are only available as framesets to really test them out. I know someone who has a medium Verhauen so I am trying to find time to try his out for comparison.

I could be wrong, which has me a bit paranoid about spending several hundred bucks on a frame that might not fit me.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> I could be wrong, which has me a bit paranoid about spending several hundred bucks on a frame that might not fit me.


Neanderthal here... I don't understand the problem with determining fit.

Isn't it simple and non-negotiable how one positions one's ass for riding? I don't see why one would ever adjust reach with the seat position - is broken.

1) Seat height: with seat at 'correct' flat riding height, you'll want the appropriate (*) bend in your knee.

2) Set horizontal position: now that seat is set vertically, locate the seat forward back so your knee is appropriately (*) over your pedal spindle.

(*) For whatever definition your experienced self prefers.

I don't see how you could be forced to ride a seat too far back over the back axle - wouldn't that prevent correct knee location over the pedal?

I would think you would start with clear idea of where you want the seat located relative to BB, then move to what is appropriate reach for you. Goofy fitting frame that requires a setback seatpost might prevent you from using a dropper (depending on what dropper you want.)

Determine seat location, then determine what bar location you prefer. And then you can guesstimate which frame size is right for you.

Finally figure out CSL and head angle that you're wanting.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I think you're right. I have been riding "medium" frames with a 590-610mm ETT and using saddle offset to make them "fit." I do this because companies say that their "medium" frame should fit me. I end up shoe-horning myself into bikes and this is wrong on many levels. it's what I have found necessary to keep from crunching my back into an awkward position. if I properly stretch myself out so that the bike is comfortable to ride, handling suffers.

[edit] I have tried setting my bikes up my KOPS as a baseline and it always requires a seatpost with a ton of offset to make that work. I rode Truvativ seatpost for a while because they have 25mm of offset.

I am not sure what to think of KOPS. it's mostly bs and I think Keith Bontrager put the last nail in that coffin many years ago but the myth persists. I don't know exactly what makes an ideal pedaling position but gravity and plumb lines have little to do with it. that's a can of worms probably not worth hijacking the thread over. Let's talk about Vassagos!

I think I have done exactly what you suggested: "Determine seat location, then determine what bar location you prefer. And then you can guesstimate which frame size is right for you." this is why I am considering a medium Jabber- I can run an inline seatpost (and maybe a dropper when I have the extra $$) and a short stem because it has the ETT and reach measurements that I seem to need.

anything with a ~600mm ETT ends up needing extreme measures to make it not painful to ride, so I need something longer.

perhaps it's time to pony up for a proper bike fitting and take the guess work out of this. Or just worrying and just go running. bikes hate me.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> I am not sure what to think of KOPS. it's mostly bs and I think Keith Bontrager put the last nail in that coffin many years ago but the myth persists. I don't know exactly what makes an ideal pedaling position but gravity and plumb lines have little to do with it. that's a can of worms probably not worth jijacking the thread over. Let's talk about Vassagos!


Ha! Well too bad. I'd like to thank you for provoking me out of my comfort zone.

I didn't know that KOPS was rubbish. Missed that memo. Something close seems to work ok for me. Probably happiest with knee about 0-1" in front of the pedals.

A bike can be weight balanced to tolerate alternative seat positions, but I think the stuff that breaks if you stray from kops is:
- not being able to get out of saddle quickly
- not having room to pedal when out of saddle (knees hit bars)

Especially for SS that standing space seems important.

Interesting at 5'9 you feel so dramatically scrunched at 600mm. I'm 6' and am happy at 625-635 (with 60mm stem).

Maybe best thing is to try and beg/borrow/steal some time on a bigger bike and see how it goes.

Good luck.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

so far as I can tell, the difference in the ETT between the small and medium Jabber is 15mm.

They don't list the stack and reach, but I calculated it and the medium has a stack that is 6mm taller and reach that is 6mm longer. I might have calculated that incorrectly but it is probably close enough to know that that it seems rather minimal and easily adjusted to make the two sizes fit about the same.

so why would one chose a small over medium?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

eri said:


> I didn't know that KOPS was rubbish. Missed that memo. Something close seems to work ok for me. Probably happiest with knee about 0-1" in front of the pedals.


Keith Bontrager, who invented KOPS even said years later it was rudimentary at best, and only worked to start with road bike geo, it didn't apply well to mtb, especially as mtb diverged from road and geo got slacker and "front center" got longer. It's not wrong if it works for you, but it's not gospel.



mack_turtle said:


> so why would one chose a small over medium?


Using the geo calc you linked in another thread, using a 120 fork, I come up with a stack difference of 15mm, and a reach of 6mm, so theres that. 15mm of stack isn't huge, but it'll be noticeable. I know a few guys running 480 rigid forks with slammed stems. not my jam, but it's done. It'd be more pronounced if they chose to run a rigid 3.0 front and a regular 2.3 rear. I know 2 guys doing that. both on VerHauens.

could also be standover, though neither has a tall standover to begin with, so... shrug. some people like really low top tubes for that BMX feel. getting a reach similar to a med, with a very low TT, and a little less weight might be appealing to some.

for me, it was solely about availability. I looked at the difference in ett, compared it to the bike i was riding before and said "small now beats medium in 6 months"

I won't spill the beans for him, but a MTBR member friend of mine is 5'9" and just bought a LARGE VerHauen. I can almost certainly say I would feel way too stretched out on that bike unless I had a 0mm setback post, and like a 50mm stem, but to quote him, the first ride was "plain awesome"


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

This thread needs more Vassago pics.


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## Southbound (Oct 17, 2016)

mack_turtle have you ridden any of the thousand vassagos you're surrounded by down there yet?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Southbound said:


> mack_turtle have you ridden any of the thousand vassagos you're surrounded by down there yet?


I have been trying! I know some who have the older Jabbers and a few Verhauens, mostly mediums and larges. I don't know if anyone has a small to compare it to.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

ARandomBiker said:


> This thread needs more Vassago pics.
> 
> View attachment 1146614


Here ya go... My 2013 Optimus Ti (I have like a bazillion miles on it) and on the bottom my 29+ rigid Optimus Ti (Fun as hell to ride). Oh, and I have always received nothing but great service from Vassago...


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

put in an order for a medium Jabber today! after months of agonizing over what to do about my riding, I came to conclude that I need a "medium" frame with a long top tube. very few options in that regard.

I play to ride it singlespeed most of the time with a 1x10 option when I need it. 29.25-35 tires, more conventional XC setup. not sure if I want to set the fork up 120mm or 100mm. no plans for a rigid for at the moment.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Congrats! I think you'll be happy. 

I've had mine set up with both a 100 and a 120 fork, as well as a 100mm-corrected rigid and they all ride and steer great. Honestly, IMO there wasn't a significant difference in handling, but it tracked a little better (maybe) when the trail got real loose and choppy with the 120. 
I wouldn't overanalyze it. choose the fork you like the feel of best. 

I expect pics when it arrives!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> put in an order for a medium Jabber today! after months of agonizing over what to do about my riding, I came to conclude that I need a "medium" frame with a long top tube. very few options in that regard.
> 
> I play to ride it singlespeed most of the time with a 1x10 option when I need it. 29.25-35 tires, more conventional XC setup. not sure if I want to set the fork up 120mm or 100mm. no plans for a rigid for at the moment.


Sweet!! Awesome news. Hope you love it. I'm expecting lots of pics followed by ride reports.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I can't get Vassago to answer my questions, which does not fill me with confidence, but...

Does the frame come with a searpost clamp? The photos on the website look like it does but I want to make sure in case i need to go get one before it shows up.

Also, did the frame come with any instruction? What is the ideal torque on the sliders?


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## Southbound (Oct 17, 2016)

Seatpost clamp: yes.
Brass thumbscrews like the website clearly shows: no. I 3d printed some so the nuts wouldn't gouge the paint. Seems like a weird place to cut corners. You might want to pick up some washers or something.

I didn't measure torque when I did the sliders. The bolts are big and there wasn't really any "feel the bolt stretching" feedback, so I just made them really tight. I repositioned it once after a test ride and then it's just held with no fussing.

Did you order through cycle progression? When I was picking up my frame the owner dude rang up some arbitrary price that wasn't what I was quoted by email and it got awkward, so I didn't hang out to chat or look for instructions. It's a bike frame.

Edit: I realized "really tight" is pretty ambiguous. I would estimate >10 Nm.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

mack_turtle said:


> Does the frame come with a searpost clamp? The photos on the website look like it does but I want to make sure in case i need to go get one before it shows up.
> 
> Also, did the frame come with any instruction? What is the ideal torque on the sliders?


My frame had a seat post clamp. Just a clamp, not a QR, it's black and basic, but it worked just fine. I replaced it with a Blue Salsa LipLock, because I wanted bling, but not because it didn't work.

I tighten my sliders "good and snug" with a single loose allen key. I'd guess it's a few nM. There's a screw to limit any forward slipping, so as long as it doesn't creak, I figure it's good. grease it before you ride.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Southbound said:


> Brass thumbscrews like the website clearly shows: no.


Those brass screws are for the Titanium sliders on the Optimus. It's a different size screw. You're subtly implying misadvertisement when you're actually looking at the wrong bike.


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## Southbound (Oct 17, 2016)

ARandomBiker said:


> Those brass screws are for the Titanium sliders on the Optimus. It's a different size screw. You're subtly implying misadvertisement when you're actually looking at the wrong bike.


They're still pictured on the website to this day (I got a verhauen): vassagocycles - VerHauen

When I emailed about them being missing the reply was something like "Hurr durr we haven't shipped those for years geez."


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Cool story. The JabberWocky has never come with brass thumbscrews. And the'yre not pictured on any image of the JabberWocky frame anywhere on the website.

I'm not a Vassago apologist. I love my bike, and so does everyone I know with one, but I recognize their website and overall marketing approach could use a lot of improvement, but lets try and keep the misinformation to a minimum, shall we? 

The bike Mack_Turtle bought does not, and never has come with brass thumb screw slider limiters. Saying "clearly pictured" is a lie.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Southbound said:


> Did you order through cycle progression? When I was picking up my frame the owner dude rang up some arbitrary price that wasn't what I was quoted by email and it got awkward, so I didn't hang out to chat or look for instructions. It's a bike frame.


I paid for the frame already before ordering, so there should not be any additional awkwardness.


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## Southbound (Oct 17, 2016)

ARandomBiker said:


> The bike Mack_Turtle bought does not, and never has come with brass thumb screw slider limiters. Saying "clearly pictured" is a lie.


Sorry, I got the frames confused. My above posts refer to the VerHauen only.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Southbound said:


> Sorry, I got the frames confused. My above posts refer to the VerHauen only.


:thumbsup:


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

Those brass nuts are completely useless. I have like 4 pair laying around gathering dust. If you MUST have them, they are available on the Paragon website, but seriously... WHY?


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

your brass nuts are useless and gathering dust.... ha ha...


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## Southbound (Oct 17, 2016)

dirtbyte said:


> Those brass nuts are completely useless. I have like 4 pair laying around gathering dust. If you MUST have them, they are available on the Paragon website, but seriously... WHY?


They keep the adjustment bolts from coming loose? If you use a wrench you'll mangle the paint with the exposed edges of the nut.

While we're talking about this though, is there any point in leaving the bolts that use the brass piece on the bike at all? The bolts that cinch the sliders to the frame should take all the load, right?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

IMO, the brass locknuts are useless. my Jabber had springs on the screws to put tension on them. At one point as an experiment in handling I slammed the sliders all the back, and bottomed out the stop screws, so the springs had to come out. When I went back to the sliders more forward (dictated by preferred gear ratio) i never replaced the springs. To my experience the stop screws haven't moved.


I don't think they are truly doing much to secure the wheel, but they're cheap and unobtrusive insurance in case a slider bolt comes loose, or you manage to slam hard enough to slip a slider.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

They may not be super useful, and yes the bolts on the sides hold the wheel in place, but I think they're nice to have and make fine adjustments easier when centering the wheel and setting chain tension.


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## DualRollers (Apr 24, 2014)

I continue to have nothing but positive experiences dealing with Tom. I have contacted him twice now via the Vassago website, and both times he has responded within the same day and been super helpful. 

That's a bummer so many people feel like their questions are neglected. Maybe it's hard for him to keep up being such a small operation?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

18" black Jabber, looks good so far!








HT badge. I think the last tim I owned a Vassgao frame, it just came with a sticker.








tiny gusset under the downtube. nice touch.








room for two inward bottle cages and room to bolt something under the DT.








slightly curved, extrenally butted seat tube.








more room than I'll probably ever need.








chainstay yoke thing leaves lots of room for rubber and drivetrain.














dropouts and axle are meh, but they look like they will definitely do the job.

the shop did not have the headset I needed to finish the build (they dropped the ball there!) but I should be able to get it up and running by the end of the week. very pleased with the initial look of the frame. the photos on Vassago's website don't do it justice.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

"Dropouts and axle are meh, but they look like the will definitely do the job"

Blame Paragon Machine Works. Vassago just welds them to the end of the stays. 
The dropouts and sliders are, IMO, the best way to rig a SS. 
I will admit I have he same axle and I don't like it. I actually damaged the notch that the flip lever fits into by an errant rock-strike. It works, it's just takes more attention. I plan on replacing it with a DT Swiss RWS axle in the future. The sliders and inserts match, so it's just the axle to replace.


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## DualRollers (Apr 24, 2014)

ARandomBiker said:


> "Dropouts and axle are meh, but they look like the will definitely do the job"
> 
> Blame Paragon Machine Works. Vassago just welds them to the end of the stays.
> The dropouts and sliders are, IMO, the best way to rig a SS.
> I will admit I have he same axle and I don't like it. I actually damaged the notch that the flip lever fits into by an errant rock-strike. It works, it's just takes more attention. I plan on replacing it with a DT Swiss RWS axle in the future. The sliders and inserts match, so it's just the axle to replace.


You sure? I ordered a DT axle to match my Whisky fork because I loved it so much, and was super disappointed when the threads didn't match.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> 18" black Jabber, looks good so far!
> 
> HT badge. I think the last tim I owned a Vassgao frame, it just came with a sticker.
> 
> ...


Awesome!! :thumbsup: I think this will be the last one you need for a long time. Hope it all works out for you. You frame saver that sucker yet?

Looks sweet. I still wish they made XL frames.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I expected something blingier from PMW, then. Strange, Vassago does not advertize their sliders as a PMW product.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

DualRollers said:


> You sure? I ordered a DT axle to match my Whisky fork because I loved it so much, and was super disappointed when the threads didn't match.


I thought I was. I only saw 2 kinds of inserts on the PMW site, the Shimano one where the drive side has a separate nut, and the DT where the drive side nut is part of the insert. 
No one else that I can find makes anything like it, and it looks identical to the pics on the Paragon site. I guess I just assumed.

Even if it weren't, the drive-side insert is $15. I'm not fond of the operation of the current axle QR-scheme, so it might be worth it.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

mack_turtle said:


> 18" black Jabber, looks good so far!


Very cool, especially the head badge. Looks like a great frame. Congrats.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

100mm Reba
Hadely rear hub with 142x12 axle
34/21 gear with AB oval

I was hoping to get some riding in the weekend, but Harvey has other plans.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

That turned out nicely. Frame/fork look like they're made for each other.


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## Mighty Matt (Apr 22, 2009)

You got a photo of the rear seat stay clearance with the wheel/ tire in the frame? I've been looking at getting one but don't like 29+ and don't want to get the frame if the bike looks goofy without a 29+ tire in the frame.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

It's a pretty big gap, but this is a 25mm i.d. rim with a 29x2.25 Crossmark on it. I am sure that a bigger tire would look more reasonable and leave lots of room for crd to not get jammed up in the frame.

Also, I don't plan on looking back at my rear tire much while riding.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Looks good man. :thumbsup: I'm curious to hear your impression of the geometry of this frame compared to others you've recently owned.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I have owned a lot of bikes that didn't fit me well. The closest thing was my Soma Juice, which is an awesome frame.

My main reason for buying a Jabber was the longer top tube. I sold a Niner ROS 9 to buy this for exactly this reason. Might get a wet pavement/ gravel ride in tomorrow, but Harvey is pushing rainstorms into Central Texas right now, so I won't get a proper trail ride in for a while.


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## Mighty Matt (Apr 22, 2009)

mack_turtle said:


> View attachment 1154156
> 
> 
> View attachment 1154157
> ...


Thanks Man!

I don't plan on looking back there when riding either but 99% of riding is looking good while you do it.

MM


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

(I already posted this onbthe wheels forum.)

Is the 12mm thru axle that comes with this frame just crappy or is it adjustable somehow? When I thighten it, it only works in the 6 o'clock position. This is sketchy.
















How do you adjust the angle of the lever?


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## Southbound (Oct 17, 2016)

Is there no adjustable nut on the other side?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

No. Should there be? Each dropout is a single, solid piece of metal. Like this B4037: Right Side, Sliding, Hanger, DT Swiss 12 mm


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## Southbound (Oct 17, 2016)

Huh. I guess they use different 12x142 dropouts on the Jabb/Verhauen. Mine has a nut that can be adjusted similar to on a fork.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

That must be a Fox or Shimano thing because my Rockshox fork does not have such an adjustment.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Mine is like yours on the 'nut' side Mack, but the lever end is a little different. On mine, I screw the axle in with the lever 'open' to *almost* tight, then flip the lever closed like a reg QR can, and then I can reposition the lever wherever I want.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I keep looking at the pictures on the bottom, I feel like those threads or the set screw allow for adjustment, somehow.


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## Southbound (Oct 17, 2016)

I guess so. For reference, similar to this:









So, I just checked my other bikes and they use yet another system that also looks different than yours where the axle is screwed in all the way and then clamped at whatever angle is desired. Sorry I can't help.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I figured it out.

ARandomBiker, you were on the right track.


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## LuckyCharm4x4 (Dec 16, 2011)

My frame is on the way! Teaser shot.









By the way, I received GREAT service all the way through the process. He even called last night and we talked shop for quite awhile even answering all of my stupid and random questions. Tom had already made the sale, and didn't have to talk to me, but he put up with my crap and offered to help me going forward with my build. Looking forward to building it up this winter!


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## bloaker (Feb 13, 2015)

Someone say we need Vassago pictures in this thread?

My Jabber with WetCat geometry someone called a death machine earlier. 
That is laughable... it is a rock solid XC machine and has been fantastic fun everywhere I have taken it. 














My VerHauen with FastCat geometry. More relaxed than the Jabber - but it was ultimately let go so I could get Vassago #3.








The Optimus Ti. I have beaten this bike in ways a hardtail should not be beaten. But it has taken it all in stride. THe more I beat it, the more I have grown to like it.














Vassago #4 is in the works...

Regarding the customer service - a the one story is almost impossible for me to imagine. That is not to say it isn't true, just so far from my experience.

Vassago is a small shop. Tom is the key Cog to it all working... he also races, supports local races, etc... So he is not always at the office or glued to his email. I know that sucks when you want an immediate response - but if you understand that up front, it helps to understand the fast responses followed up with some slow responses.

I am not making excuses for them... but kind of throwing out there what I know about them and my experience with them. Hopefully that helps others.


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## bloaker (Feb 13, 2015)

mack_turtle - I went back and looked and see you're the one that mentioned the wetcat frame being a crasher... and you also said you loved your juice... I also own a juice and find them hard to compare. I rode the Juice at SSWC in Japan and it did great with a 100mm fork. I ultimately made the Juice geared and went up to a 120mm and my confidence in the bike has faded. So much so, I have it posted locally for sale.

Granted, I own 4 hardtails - so losing 1 isn't really a loss, but it is the one to go.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Hi all...just noticing this thread, so I’ll weigh in. Longtime MTBR member, but haven’t posted much in recent years. Just got a new Optimus Ti 29+, so totally restoked, and have been getting re-engaged here.

Some background:
- I’ve been SS’ing since ~2005, on Kona Unit 29’s (cracked two), Niner SIR9’s (cracked three), and two Optimus Ti’s (“first gen” from 2013, and the new OpTi)
- I do endurance XC riding, including 12/24 hour solo stuff. Also do moderate tech, but no crazy ****. I ride it all on my SS.

With regard to the original OpTi being a “death trap” (or whatever was referenced), I’ve got thousands and thousands of miles on mine, including lots of sketch riding/descending, and never thought that. Yes, it’s got a 71-degree HA, but it’s a racy, XC geometry, and you just need to be prepared to deal with whatever the terrain presents. NBD; it’s riding.

The new OpTi has true “trail” geometry, with a 68.5-degree HA and shorter chainstays, and it’s stable and fun as fvck. I’ve got a Fox 34 120 mm fork on it, and it can do it all. I actively switch between the three travel positions (open, trail, locked) constantly, depending on what is in front of me.

My biggest question right now is the wheels and tires, since I’m new to 29+. Given my orientation (endurance XC), I’ve favored lighter tires with less rolling resistance. I’ve used Flow EX’s for rims, because I hammer my wheels, and don’t want issues (and I’ve broken Arches). On my first OpTi, after a ton of real-world experience and experimenting on the harsh terrain of AZ, I settled on Ikon’s front and rear - 2.35 fr/2.20 r, and that proved to be the winning combo for me. On my new 29+ OpTi, I started with WTB Ranger 3.0’s on Flow MK3’s (i29mm), which was pushing it for that width on those rims. So I switched to Rekon 2.6’s, which are comfy, but draggy for my application. I will be going to an Ardent 2.4 in front and an Ikon 2.35 in back on the Flows, for races and long, “dirt roadie” rides, but, and here is where it gets good for the new OpTi, I am building up a true “plus” wheelset with sunRingle Duroc 40’s (i36mm) laced to I9’s, with an SS-specific rear. I plan on starting with the Ranger 3.0’s on that, and will see how it goes. I chose the Rangers over Bonti XR2’s (formerly Chupacabra’s) because they perform similarly and are 1/3 the cost.

Lastly, re Vassago and Tom, Tom bought out the brand, which had gone out of business, back in late-2012/early 2013. He is one guy, who was holding down another job, at the time, while he got Vassago retooled and going. He has since quit that job an is dedicated to Vassago. That said, he is one guy, and, as ARandomBiker said above in this thread, he rides a lot, races, attends races and sets up shop to support Vassago riders and wave the flag. He is very passionate and involved, and also recently got married. Did I also mention that he is one guy? Yes, the website can be wonky and/or out of date, and Tom can be slow to reply sometimes, but you just need to stay with it. “But it’s a business”, you say, and “You can’t run a business like that”. Well, whatever; he makes it work. Just be patient, and you’ll get great bikes and great support. Make sure to hit him up via e-mail ([email protected]) and Facebook (Tom Vassago), and there is also a Facebook page for the Vassago Legion. And stay on him, as he may miss it or forget about it because...see above, and did I mention he’s one guy.

Jeezus, this got LONG! How bout some pics...I’ll post some next.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

New OpTi 29+









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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Original OpTi









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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

My Vassago Verhauen in custom gray.


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## eonicks (Mar 3, 2011)

JoePAz said:


> My Vassago Verhauen in custom gray.
> 
> View attachment 1180371


Hi Joe, I see also have a Highball. I have mine set up SS (aluminum frame). How'd you compare it handling wise to your Verhauen? Looking for something less XC'ish for my next SS.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

eonicks said:


> Hi Joe, I see also have a Highball. I have mine set up SS (aluminum frame). How'd you compare it handling wise to your Verhauen? Looking for something less XC'ish for my next SS.


My highball is carbon and the 2012 model with 120 mm fork. The Verhauen runs a 100 mm fork. I have them setup to both handle the same at least to my feeling. Same tires on both bikes and same cockpit arrangement. Geometry is different, but still feel the same. Verhauen has longer Top tube, but steeper head angle. The differece is in the feel, weight and gears. The highball is geared, but lighter 21.5lbs since it has alot of carbon and high end parts (XX1, XTR, etc). The Verhauen is steel and aluminum and is 24lbs. The Verhauen is smoother and more of a sweet ride. The Highball is fast and fast over distance. I race the verhauen because I am racing singlespeed this year, but the highball is faster.

As for twichy... I don't find either bike twitchy. Both are very good bikes and confidence inspiring. I can't charge some downhill as fast as I can on my 5" Santa Cruz 5010, but that is due to the lack of rear suspension and lack of dropper post. If I have fast tight bench cut downhill where one wrong turn sends me over the edge I am on my 2 HT bikes without a doubt.


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## Driverfound337 (Sep 1, 2008)

waltaz said:


> New OpTi 29+
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought I was the only guy who rode that far out on hawes:thumbsup:


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Driverfound337 said:


> I thought I was the only guy who rode that far out on hawes:thumbsup:


LOL...we're calling that "TRW Outers", and that spiderweb of new trails has been getting a ton of traffic recently. Some fun stuff, and nice way to add some miles.

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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

Convert here also, though I wish the paint did not chip so easily. Edit: Had to remove the picture since it had gears for an upcoming bikepacking trip. Singlespeed forum :nono:


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## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

where are you guys buying your bikes?


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

slowride454 said:


> where are you guys buying your bikes?


Direct from Tom at Vassago. [email protected], or message Tom Vassago on Facebook. Don't use the [email protected] email address.


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## austin_bike (Apr 2, 2005)

I bought mine from a local dealer here in Austin, Cycle Progression. I highly recommend the black decals on a black frame, very stealth.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

austin_bike said:


> I highly recommend the black decals on a black frame, very stealth.


Couldn't agree more.

My Verhauen:


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## austin_bike (Apr 2, 2005)

Yep, that looks like mine. Put a fox on the front and a dropper post on it, change the bling to red, and we're there.

Like it so much I am thinking that maybe I also need a Verhauen geared hardtail.


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## LuckyCharm4x4 (Dec 16, 2011)

Here's my Verhauen, it's the only picture that I have of it so far, I've been too busy riding it.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

My Verhauen with Fox 32 SC and 3 bottle mounts. Finished from a 40 mile race.


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## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

waltaz said:


> Direct from Tom at Vassago. [email protected], or message Tom Vassago on Facebook. Don't use the [email protected] email address.


thank you. he replied to my e-mail. I just need to decide if I'm going to wait a couple months.


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## heartland (Oct 1, 2009)

I put a boinger on mine. And ditched the plus wheels.









Still getting little details sorted, but man do I love this thing! I know some folks dig 29+, but I feel so much more cornering grip with Forekaster 2.35s. The 3.0 Rangers slid around too much for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

mack_turtle said:


> View attachment 1153103
> 
> View attachment 1153104
> 
> ...





ARandomBiker said:


> "Dropouts and axle are meh, but they look like the will definitely do the job"
> 
> Blame Paragon Machine Works. Vassago just welds them to the end of the stays.


old news, but I just emailed PMW to ask about replacement bolts for the sliders on my Jabberwocky. I sent them these photos and they said that these are not their product.

I can't find anything on Vassago's website that says they use a PMW product. The specs on the Vehauen says "USA Made sliding dropouts compatible with Paragon sliding inserts." PMW might object to that language. these sliders are fine, but I just wanted some better bolts as mine are rusting.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

mack_turtle said:


> old news, but I just emailed PMW to ask about replacement bolts for these sliders. I sent them these photos and they said that these are not their product.
> 
> I can't find anything on Vassago's website that says they use a PMW product. The specs on the Vehauen says "USA Made sliding dropouts compatible with Paragon sliding inserts." PMW might object to that language. these sliders are fine, but I just wanted some better bolts as mine are rusting.


Those pictures are of the Jabber, Not the VerHauen. The Verhauen uses paragon sliders. The Jabber does not, and it does not say it does anywhere on the website. Just sayin. Having said that... I owned a jabber that had those sliders and was able to use the paragon bolts just fine. They were about 1mm too long, but that did not cause any issues, YMMV.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I just walked out to my garage and grabbed the ‘stock’ PMW bolts from my Verhauen off my bench, they threaded right into the 135qr sliders that were leftover from when I had a Jabberwocky. I recently replaced the stock ones with the swanky Ti ones that can be tightened with a socket because I swap cogs frequently and didn’t want to accidentally strip the hex head. 

They’re damned expensive, but IMO, worth every penny.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

dirtbyte said:


> Those pictures are of the Jabber, Not the VerHauen. The Verhauen uses paragon sliders. The Jabber does not, and it does not say it does anywhere on the website. Just sayin. Having said that... I owned a jabber that had those sliders and was able to use the paragon bolts just fine. They were about 1mm too long, but that did not cause any issues, YMMV.


thanks for the verification about PMW bolts.

I know those are photos of a Jabber, because I took those photos of my Jabberwocky. I was updating this because someone in this thread told me specifically that the sliders in the frame are PMW and I was clarifying that is not the case, verified by PMW.

I might be interested in replacing these sliders with PMW sliders if their design somehow allows me to slide my dropouts in another 1/4" or so. there's plenty of room for my tires. I might just buy the nicer bolts though.

I am not so sure that the Vehauen  uses PMW sliders or dropouts either. they might have at one time, but the current website info does not say that.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

mack_turtle said:


> thanks for the verification about PMW bolts.
> 
> I know those are photos of a Jabber, because I took those photos of my Jabberwocky. I was updating this because someone in this thread told me specifically that the sliders in the frame are PMW and I was clarifying that is not the case, verified by PMW.
> 
> ...


Ok, if you say so. I am so glad I do not own a bike company.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

dirtbyte said:


> Ok, if you say so. I am so glad I do not own a bike company.


I didn't say so, Vassago said it and Paragon Machine Works confirmed it.









where does it say that the Verhauen actually uses a Paragon product?


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

mack_turtle said:


> I didn't say so, Vassago said it and Paragon Machine Works confirmed it.
> 
> View attachment 1197250
> 
> ...


I am so confused. What was your question again?


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## akindofbrian (Jan 4, 2017)

I was so excited when I saw this thread was bolded cuz I was figuring I'd see some sweet new Vassago builds! Maybe next time.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

sorry about that. here's a Texas tradition: photos of your loved ones among bluebonnets.









in the past few months, this bike has worn three different seatposts, two kinds of pedals, two gear combos, two saddles, three tire combos, two forks, and three handlebars. I can't make up my mind.









dropper post, what!?


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## akindofbrian (Jan 4, 2017)

Yes! And bonus bluebonnets (my sis is in Texas and I see these kinds of pics a lot). These bikes look so good. Especially as singlespeeds.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

Here is my Mooseknuckle all enduro bro'ed out:


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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

regarding bolts....

Vassago does have a Ti bolt kit for about $17 for a set of 4 shipped.

if you want to use PMW hardware, you'll want part MS0032 or MS0033. 

that's what Tom told me. I currently have a rounded out bolt on my jabber that i'll need to extract and replace at some point. i'll def be upgrading to the ti bolts...prolly spring for the PMW.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Momentary identity crisis:








Yeah, that's a dropper on my rigid singlespeed.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

ARandomBiker said:


> Momentary identity crisis:
> View attachment 1197281
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's a dropper on my rigid singlespeed.


Heathen!!


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## RacerM41 (Jun 19, 2015)

My new Optimus build. She trying to look Sexy 









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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

anyone ever get accurate reach and stack measurements from Vassago? I messaged them the other day but I think I asked previously and recieved now answer. I am doing an experiment with fit and bike geometry but it's hard to do without a baseline.

I beleive the reach for a medium is about 438mm and the stack is about 600mm based on plugging in numbers on bikegeo.net but it would be nice to hear what measurements Vassago used to design the frame.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

According to the website (I own one and this is what I have been going off of in comparing various bikes)...









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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

waltaz said:


> According to the website (I own one and this is what I have been going off of in comparing various bikes)...


Thanks, where did you get that geo chart? link?

I think that is the Verhauen geo, not the Jabber. They are close but not the same. It's also based on a "120mm sagged 20% with 2.3 tires". I have a Vassago rigid fork with a A-C that's 20mm shorter, so those numbers are still irrelevant to me. I can probably sort out the correct numbers based on that if I had Jabber figures, but I don't see why they have never gotten around to just putting the S&R for the Jabber on their site.


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## akindofbrian (Jan 4, 2017)

It's on their main page for the Jabber: JabberWocky Frame

Just select "Geometry." They show it with both 120 and 100 mm forks. The latter should be exact to your 480 mm rigid fork.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

akindofbrian said:


> It's on their main page for the Jabber: JabberWocky Frame
> 
> Just select "Geometry." They show it with both 120 and 100 mm forks. The latter should be exact to your 480 mm rigid fork.


where do you see the reach and stack numbers? again they publish the R&T for the Verhauen but not the Jabber. However, they might be identical, or close enough. I used to be able to calculate that stuff on https://bikegeo.muha.cc but that site appears to be down.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> Thanks, where did you get that geo chart? link?
> 
> I think that is the Verhauen geo, not the Jabber. They are close but not the same. It's also based on a "120mm sagged 20% with 2.3 tires". I have a Vassago rigid fork with a A-C that's 20mm shorter, so those numbers are still irrelevant to me. I can probably sort out the correct numbers based on that if I had Jabber figures, but I don't see why they have never gotten around to just putting the S&R for the Jabber on their site.


Sorry...I misunderstood. That was the Optimus Ti geo chart that I posted. I see you've found where the others are. I can't speak to the Reach and Stack figures.

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## akindofbrian (Jan 4, 2017)

mack_turtle said:


> where do you see the reach and stack numbers? again they publish the R&T for the Verhauen but not the Jabber.
> 
> [/ATTACH]


Touche! Totally not there! I think I must just look at the Verhauen all the time and figured for sure it would be the same as the Jabber.

As you said, probably close enough (especially when using the alternative calculators).

Sorry for adding to the confusion.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Reviving the Jabber thread to ask for your experiences with fork options. I have been riding the Jabberwocky for about a year with a Vassago rigid fork and a 100mm Reba. In typical Mack fashion, I have found that I with the BB was not so darn low- barely 300mm off the ground puts the pedals uncomfortably close to the ground and 68mm makes the bike so stable that it's kind of annoying. The chainstay are short but I think they ought to be shorter to make up for that low-hanging BB. The reach is extremely long, which I like, but I wish I could reign it in a bit but I already have a 50mm stem on it.

I was well on my way to purchasing a new frame when I realized that I can raise the BB and shorten the reach enough to make a difference, albeit a small one, but swapping my fork spring to 120mm.

According to Vassago, the Jabberwocky geometry plays out thusly:









The changes play out differently on this calculator, but the general idea is still there:









Not sure how this will play out. It might not make a difference or it might make me love this frame again at no cost. Will report back.

Since the Jabberwocky is such a versatile frame, what's your magic setup to make it rad?

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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I bumped my Reba up from 100 to 120 with an airshaft at the beginning of the year. I've had nothing but positive to say about it. Who doesn't love more travel?

But then, I didn't have pedal-strike issues at 100mm.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't want any suspension if I can help it, I just want to get the BB closer to the axle height. I was also keeping the suspension fork 100mm to keep the bar low. Using a flat-top low rise bar with a slammed stem and no spacers now. Bumping the fork up will make getting the bar where I want it relative to the BB, which will also go up, a PITA. Might have to invert the bar to make it work. I may be the only person who wants a short head tube for this reason. I want to ride a bicycle, not a chopper.

I think the longer fork I'll be a temporary solution.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

What about a Syntace Flat Force negative rise stem? I've got a 60mm sitting around if you're interested -was using it on my Juice but I was too far forward over the front end. Ended up springing my Sid to 120mm & putting a 6 degree stem on & the Juice just about perfect for me now. But I'm drooling over mooseknuckle...



mack_turtle said:


> I don't want any suspension if I can help it, I just want to get the BB closer to the axle height. I was also keeping the suspension fork 100mm to keep the bar low. Using a flat-top low rise bar with a slammed stem and no spacers now. Bumping the fork up will make getting the bar where I want it relative to the BB, which will also go up, a PITA. Might have to invert the bar to make it work. I may be the only person who wants a short head tube for this reason. I want to ride a bicycle, not a chopper.
> 
> I think the longer fork I'll be a temporary solution.


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## coleam (Aug 8, 2009)

Just picked up a used 2018 VerHauen frame and ran into a crankset clearance snag. My original crankset idea wasn't working for non-frame-related reasons (stupid M950 and its lack of alternate chainring/spider options), so I decided to rob the X01 Eagle cranks off my full squish bike just to test it out. Unfortunately, I was getting some crank arm interference, even with a spacer on the drive side BB (technically wrong on a 73mm BB shell). Crank arm cleared (barely) once I pulled the crank boot off, but there was enough flex that I was clipping the chainstay on half my pedal strokes - no bueno. So just be aware that the X01 Eagle (and I would assume XX1 Eagle as well since they're almost identical) GXP cranks are not compatible with the 2018 VerHauen. It's not a boost/non-boost thing either, since I'm 90% sure SRAM just uses chainring offset to set the chain line. Plus the frame I pulled the cranks from is boost, so even if there is a difference, they should still be the boost version.

Either that or I'm an idiot and missing something incredibly obvious.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Are the cranks hitting both sides of the frame? If it's just one side, check that the frame is straight. You can use a frame alignment guage at a bike shop, or find a diy version that involves string.


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## The STIG (May 20, 2011)

coleam said:


> Just picked up a used 2018 VerHauen frame and ran into a crankset clearance snag. My original crankset idea wasn't working for non-frame-related reasons (stupid M950 and its lack of alternate chainring/spider options), so I decided to rob the X01 Eagle cranks off my full squish bike just to test it out. Unfortunately, I was getting some crank arm interference, even with a spacer on the drive side BB (technically wrong on a 73mm BB shell). Crank arm cleared (barely) once I pulled the crank boot off, but there was enough flex that I was clipping the chainstay on half my pedal strokes - no bueno. So just be aware that the X01 Eagle (and I would assume XX1 Eagle as well since they're almost identical) GXP cranks are not compatible with the 2018 VerHauen. It's not a boost/non-boost thing either, since I'm 90% sure SRAM just uses chainring offset to set the chain line. Plus the frame I pulled the cranks from is boost, so even if there is a difference, they should still be the boost version.
> 
> Either that or I'm an idiot and missing something incredibly obvious.


Check your Q-factor on the xx1/x01 cranks, you need to run the 168 width. It should be stamped on the edge of the crank arm


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## coleam (Aug 8, 2009)

mack_turtle said:


> Are the cranks hitting both sides of the frame? If it's just one side, check that the frame is straight. You can use a frame alignment guage at a bike shop, or find a diy version that involves string.


Just the drive side, though there wasn't a lot of space on the non-drive.

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## coleam (Aug 8, 2009)

The STIG said:


> Check your Q-factor on the xx1/x01 cranks, you need to run the 168 width. It should be stamped on the edge of the crank arm


AFAIK, X01 cranks only come in 168 q-factor. XX1 has narrower options though.

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## The STIG (May 20, 2011)

I've run xo/xo1/xx1 and seem to remember 156 or 168 options in all, but not positive. Just suggesting something easy to check. I could see a 156 hitting for sure


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## coleam (Aug 8, 2009)

The STIG said:


> I've run xo/xo1/xx1 and seem to remember 156 or 168 options in all, but not positive. Just suggesting something easy to check. I could see a 156 hitting for sure


Just checked, and there's no q factor printed on the arms anywhere. SRAM site says they only come in 168, so unless they're a one-off thing for Pivot, they should be 168.

Also checked alignment and it's really, really close. 1mm difference, if that. Hard to get a precise measurement with the string method.

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## OldHouseMan (Dec 7, 2006)

What is the max 29” tire size that will fit in the Mooseknuckle? The website simply states, clearance for any 29er tire.


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## coleam (Aug 8, 2009)

coleam said:


> Just checked, and there's no q factor printed on the arms anywhere. SRAM site says they only come in 168, so unless they're a one-off thing for Pivot, they should be 168.
> 
> Also checked alignment and it's really, really close. 1mm difference, if that. Hard to get a precise measurement with the string method.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Update on this: just tried a wider crankset (171 q-factor) and it still has clearance issues. Clears in the stand and under smooth pedaling, but as soon as I started grinding up a climb, it was rubbing. I'm convinced the frame is out of spec - alignment looks good, and clearance looks normal on the non drive side (not too big as you'd expect if it was crooked). Most likely the chainstay just doesn't have enough bend in it. Going to try to contact Tom about it.










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## coleam (Aug 8, 2009)

Anyone want to do some measuring for me? Still trying to work out this crank issue. My X01 cranks are 168 q factor (I measured) and have 138mm of clearance between the arms with the boots installed (measured at the tip). The drive side arm contacted the chainstay in this configuration, which Tom tells me should not happen. With the boots removed, it cleared in the stand, but rubbed when pedaling. Praxis cranks pictured above are 172 q factor and have 142mm clearance between the arms without boots. They rub under heavy torque, but are fine under light loads. My frame measures 136mm wide across the chainstays at the pedals (175mm cranks).

Measurements I'm looking for:
- Anyone: crank model and arm clearance between the inner surfaces at the tip of the arm (trying to find a crankset that might fit)
- 2018 VerHauen owners: frame width measured across the chainstays at the pedals on a 175mm crank (should tell me if my frame is out of spec)


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I have a Jabberwocky with 170 mm SLX M675 cranks. 12-14mm of clearance on the NDS and 10 mm on the DS.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

coleam said:


> I'm convinced the frame is out of spec -


It's entirely possible. I'd contact Tom and have him measure some frames to compare. Even if it doesn't measure as out of spec, the fact that it's flexing enough to rub is at minimum abnormal, and borderline unacceptable.

I've recently seen a very common frame from a fairly major manufacturer be totally out of spec. It was aluminum but the chainstays were so wide the crank arms hit the frame. How the hell that got through QC, paint, and assembly is beyond me? It happens.


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## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

Saw this locally, figured somebody might want it.
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/24...b8M0R2fFEgSJBvz4O9podLeoMtbCEdtkihmCP1AvyQWaY


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## Addy Marx (Jul 18, 2009)

If you ever wanted to join the gang... smokin' deals on ti frames today!
Welcome to Vassago Bicycles - Bikes are Effing Cool


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## chowdapilot (May 30, 2005)

So what is the consensus with these bikes? I just discovered the Radimus Ti and I'm tempted though I know nothing about the brand. That and there seems to be no reviews on the Radimus. As for numbers, it is exactly what I'm looking for, though again hard to purchase without more info. Also does anyone know where the Ti frames are made? I assume overseas but would love to hear more.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

chowdapilot said:


> So what is the consensus with these bikes?


are you asking about Vassago in general or the Radimus specifically? I think there's a Vassago Facebook group you can seek out for specifics.

Vassago in general- the geometry was ahead of its time. long front ends are ubiquitous now. I like mine but I wish the back end was a little shorter with room for a 29x2.4.

Vassago is not very good at staying in touch with customers. there are a few stories on this forum of people breaking frames that are within warranty and Vassago just ignoring them. I had no trouble ordering my Jabberwocky because the local bike shop that has a great relationship with them, but others have a hard time making contact as well. I asked them a question before buying mine and got a quick answer. I asked something else a short while later, no response. asked for clarification, never got a response. I can't complain about the quality of mine but I worry about the company.


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## coleam (Aug 8, 2009)

chowdapilot said:


> So what is the consensus with these bikes? I just discovered the Radimus Ti and I'm tempted though I know nothing about the brand. That and there seems to be no reviews on the Radimus. As for numbers, it is exactly what I'm looking for, though again hard to purchase without more info. Also does anyone know where the Ti frames are made? I assume overseas but would love to hear more.


Pretty sure the Radimus is a relatively recent addition to the line, so there aren't that many out there. I'm pretty happy with my VerHauen though. Finding a crank that worked ended up being a bit more difficult than I expected, I think because it's designed to have the shortest possible stays with clearance for 29+, which makes for pretty wide chainstays, but the Radimus shouldn't have that issue. Customer service wise, I have no complaints. I contacted them about the crank issue and sent a few emails back and forth with Tom (the owner - pretty sure he's a one-man operation). I'm not the original owner, but he gave me a few suggestions to try and said I could ship the bike to them for repair if it ended up being a frame spec issue. He was generally pretty quick to respond (except for the time his spam folder ate my email) and took the time to do some research on my behalf, and I appreciate that. As for where the Ti frames are made, the website says USA: Vassago Black Label Frames.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

mack_turtle said:


> are you asking about Vassago in general or the Radimus specifically? I think there's a Vassago Facebook group you can seek out for specifics.
> 
> Vassago in general- the geometry was ahead of its time. long front ends are ubiquitous now. I like mine but I wish the back end was a little shorter with room for a 29x2.4.
> 
> Vassago is not very good at staying in touch with customers. there are a few stories on this forum of people breaking frames that are within warranty and Vassago just ignoring them. I had no trouble ordering my Jabberwocky because the local bike shop that has a great relationship with them, but others have a hard time making contact as well. I asked them a question before buying mine and got a quick answer. I asked something else a short while later, no response. asked for clarification, never got a response. I can't complain about the quality of mine but I worry about the company.


This. Be wary, I am the one that originally made this thread (old username that I forgot the password for). I mention in my original post that the company is responsive, which I have found they are if you are trying to buy something. When it comes to giving them money, you can get an answer real fast. Just hope you never need anything else. I broke that frame, spent $40 shipping it back to them to "be analyzed" and they threw it in the corner for basically an entire riding season.

Their post sale customer service is absolutely awful. They also sell off all their stock and don't hold any back for warranty issues, so if you break something you're out of luck. It took the dude who runs that joint way too long to just admit that he had no Jabber frames set aside. By the end of the exchange I just wanted my $40 back for shipping the frame to him.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I just noticed that there are no steel bikes on Vassago's website anymore. ti still seems out of my price range, even on sale. if they made a steel version of the Radimus for about half the price, I would be into it! anyone know what's happening with them these days?

it's also a bit weird that so many companies that make after-market frames like Vassago and Canfield (I checked, they said they don't sell the Nimble 9 with a 142 option any more) that they suddenly dropped the 142mm sliding dropout option. did everyone really just throw their non-boost hubs in the trash already?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I asked, and there's a steel version of the Radimus coming soon. USA made, so it will cost about the same as the other Black Label frames like the Verhauen.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> I asked, and there's a steel version of the Radimus coming soon. USA made, so it will cost about the same as the other Black Label frames like the Verhauen.


You didn't happen to ask about XL's by any chance? Last time I asked (couple years ago) Tom said he had no intention of making XL frames. Bummer.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

mack_turtle said:


> I just noticed that there are no steel bikes on Vassago's website anymore. ti still seems out of my price range, even on sale. if they made a steel version of the Radimus for about half the price, I would be into it! anyone know what's happening with them these days?
> 
> it's also a bit weird that so many companies that make after-market frames like Vassago and Canfield (I checked, they said they don't sell the Nimble 9 with a 142 option any more) that they suddenly dropped the 142mm sliding dropout option. did everyone really just throw their non-boost hubs in the trash already?


Interesting, I must have got lucky. I ordered a Nimble 9 frame a couple months ago and they sent me the 142 sliders. They must have had limited stock or something.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

no XL steel Radimus frames unless you are willing to pay extra for custom work, which might put the price in the range of other custom builders. I was told they have extra stock on XL frames from their other models that no one buys. the reach on the Radimus is pretty darn long, so taller riders might be able to make them work.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

I ride a Vassago and I know Tom personally and ride with him on occasion. Good guy and he makes good bikes and 90% of Singlespeeders I ride with are on a Vassago. A few have multiple frames too. The Radimus is new and I am pretty sure it is based on a prototype he has been riding around for at least the past year. Ti frames are made in china, but he does take the time to ensure they are made with high quality Ti material and welded correctly. He has background in chemistry and material science so that helps. 

As for steel.. Well high quality steel frames are getting harder to made since the supply of steel tubing is not as it was. True Temper used to make the OX Platinum tubing that the older Verhauens (like mine) were made from. He was at time working on Columbus tubes for the new Verhauen however he may not been able to get enough supply for price that makes sense. Most of what he has been selling lately has been Ti. And yes he is a small mfg. Does not have big staff (or maybe even any staff).


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## Addy Marx (Jul 18, 2009)

JoePAz said:


> Ti frames are made in china, but he does take the time to ensure they are made with high quality Ti material and welded correctly. He has background in chemistry and material science so that helps.


So the stock ti frames are not the same as the Titanium Black Label frames that are made in the US? 
For some reason I was under the impression that all the ti frames were made in the US.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Addy Marx said:


> So the stock ti frames are not the same as the Titanium Black Label frames that are made in the US?
> For some reason I was under the impression that all the ti frames were made in the US.


nope.

You can confirm with him, but he black label stuff is/was special order only. He had a frame guy in Portland I think that did the work, but I think costs increased to the point it not feasible for even special order.

And before you think everything from China is junk there are lot aircraft parts made in China these days. Those are alot more critical that simple bike frame. So it comes down to finding a reputable place that knows what they are doing.


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## Addy Marx (Jul 18, 2009)

JoePAz said:


> nope.
> 
> You can confirm with him, but he black label stuff is/was special order only. He had a frame guy in Portland I think that did the work, but I think costs increased to the point it not feasible for even special order.
> 
> And before you think everything from China is junk there are lot aircraft parts made in China these days. Those are alot more critical that simple bike frame. So it comes down to finding a reputable place that knows what they are doing.


I was wondering what the distinction between the Black Label and stock frames was and the origins of each. Thanks for the clarification.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

JoePAz said:


> nope.
> 
> You can confirm with him, but he black label stuff is/was special order only. He had a frame guy in Portland I think that did the work, but I think costs increased to the point it not feasible for even special order.
> 
> And before you think everything from China is junk there are lot aircraft parts made in China these days. Those are alot more critical that simple bike frame. So it comes down to finding a reputable place that knows what they are doing.


In all fairness, I am not super convinced that the owner of Vassago is finding those reputable places though. The welds on my Jabberwocky looked terrible, and oddly enough that's where I broke it. I will try to find pictures, but in my opinion those welds should not have passed any kind of QC.


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

I have (I think) an original Jabber, circa. 2007 in army green. I've beat the crap out of it and she's still going. It was my main ride for 9 years until I retired her to a cruisin' with the kids or beer pub crawls. However, I've recently started to think about throwing some Salsa Woodchippers on her and heading out to Browns. I think that would bring new life to her. Although, the rear chainstays need to be sanded and repainted. 

Since you ride with him (I'm in AZ also), can you give the scoop on the company? Is Tom going straight Ti or will he offer steel again at some point?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I emailed Tom and he said US-made steel is coming back.

Jabberwocky frames have long top tubes, so it might be hard to make a drop bar conversion fit you. How long a stem does it have now? Get something higher and 25mm shorter.


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> I emailed Tom and he said US-made steel is coming back.
> 
> Jabberwocky frames have long top tubes, so it might be hard to make a drop bar conversion fit you. How long a stem does it have now? Get something higher and 25mm shorter.


The current set up is a 100mm stem with the Origin8 Bat Wing bar. The 25 degree sweep is too much. Good cheap bar to test if I like a sweep feel. I'm looking at nothing over a 60mm stem for this set up. It's a ways off since I just started thinking about it and I need to do a lot more research into what shifters, brake levers etc. I'm currently running XT 9 sp and single up ring up front. I'm a singlespeeder at heart but think I want a 2x9 set up. I just have no idea on the aforementioned shifters and brake levers. I do want to stick with my BB7 disc calipers.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

An old Jabber monstercross would be rad indeed.

FWIW, I wanted to put drop bars on a rigid mountain bike for a while. It was not worth it in the end because putting some narrow bars with comfy bar ends accomplished the same thing, for my purposes, and I didn't have a screw around with different brake levers, brakes, shifters, etc. The main reason I like drop bars is for multiple hand positions on roads (dirt or paved) for long rides. There are many multi-hand position bars out there that are not drop bars. Jones?

If you want dirt drops, look into the Soma (fixed, not a Salsa product) Gator bar. Flared drops, but the bottom of the hooks are flat bar standard 22.2mm instead of road standard 23.8, so you can use mtn brakes, trigger or twist shifters, etc with minimal hassle.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

mack_turtle said:


> If you want dirt drops, look into the *Salsa *Gator bar. Flared drops, but the bottom of the hooks are flat bar standard 22.2mm instead of road standard 23.8, so you can use mtn brakes, trigger or twist shifters, etc with minimal hassle.


Soma?


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> An old Jabber monstercross would be rad indeed.
> 
> FWIW, I wanted to put drop bars on a rigid mountain bike for a while. It was not worth it in the end because putting some narrow bars with comfy bar ends accomplished the same thing, for my purposes, and I didn't have a screw around with different brake levers, brakes, shifters, etc. The main reason I like drop bars is for multiple hand positions on roads (dirt or paved) for long rides. There are many multi-hand position bars out there that are not drop bars. Jones?
> 
> If you want dirt drops, look into the Soma (fixed, not a Salsa product) Gator bar. Flared drops, but the bottom of the hooks are flat bar standard 22.2mm instead of road standard 23.8, so you can use mtn brakes, trigger or twist shifters, etc with minimal hassle.


Great info! That's exactly why I need a lot,of research b/4 buying anything. I'm not sure I'd like bar end shifters but if I find a cheap 9 so set, it may be worth a try. But I'm thinking of some sort of Franken-bike with mountain shifters on the top of the bar. That way it's minimal cost to try.

Know what drop bar levers work with BB7 disc brakes? I've read the Tektro RL520 or something like that works but....

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Tektro and Cane Creek make levers that work with "mountain" brakes. There are also some "road" mechanical disc brakes that with with road brake/ shift levers.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Can anyone tell me about their recent warranty experiences with Vassago? I recently discovered that I will need to persue that route.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I got my Jabberwocky fixed and Vassago added stealth dropper routing and a new paint job. Looks amazing!


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

*Back to the Light!*

Just wanted to remind everyone of how great these bike are! My 2017 JaberWocky is the most versatile bike that I have ever owned. I regularly swap it back and forth from SS to geared depending on what I am doing with it at the time. Sometimes I even choose between a 2.4 tire or 3.0... Go enjoy your Vassago!


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## beantownbarry (Aug 7, 2008)

*My Vassago Optimus TI ...Super Sport model*



kustomz said:


> Just wanted to remind everyone of how great these bike are! My 2017 JaberWocky is the most versatile bike that I have ever owned. I regularly swap it back and forth from SS to geared depending on what I am doing with it at the time. Sometimes I even choose between a 2.4 tire or 3.0... Go enjoy your Vassago!


My Optimus SS 29+boost frame using carbon 27.5+Atomic wheels with 3.0 F/R. love it to death!


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## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

Optical illusion or are those some long ass cables?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

mack_turtle said:


> I got my Jabberwocky fixed and Vassago added stealth dropper routing and a new paint job. Looks amazing!


That looks super slick! I like it a lot. 
Also pretty jealous of the dropper cable port. Wonder if I could take my VerHauen in and get that done.


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## beantownbarry (Aug 7, 2008)

Long ass cables. I here ya.
They came of an XL frame. I’ve shortened the shift cable/wire, and I only need to shorten the rear brake hose now. I’ve been putting it off though because I am selling the XL frame, and could use the cash to get new brakes. Those Guide R’s are loud. I’m leaning towards getting new instead of shortening those. I’ll sell those also...get something nice! Hope are on my top choice list. XTR...or even just the XT. Maybe I need to check out some of the other companies out there.


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## AlexCuse (Nov 27, 2011)

mack_turtle said:


> I got my Jabberwocky fixed and Vassago added stealth dropper routing and a new paint job. Looks amazing!


hell yes it does!


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Just convert my Verhauen to 29x2.6

Love this bike.









Also runs 29x3.0 rigid








and with regular 29


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## STACABURY (Feb 7, 2019)

If anyone is looking to sell a large Jabber or VerHauen let me know. Looking for frame mainly, but would take complete bike if price is right. Preferably a '17 or '18.


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## jmctav23 (Oct 16, 2010)

JoePAz said:


> Just convert my Verhauen to 29x2.6
> 
> Love this bike.
> 
> ...


is that a first or 2nd gen? Considering picking up a first gen frame and wonder about rear tire clearance...


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

jmctav23 said:


> is that a first or 2nd gen? Considering picking up a first gen frame and wonder about rear tire clearance...


This is a 29 Plus verhauen. There is metal plate at the chainstay to provide extra clearance for the 29+ tires and the chainring. The normal version was just tubing. You can see it clearly in the photos.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

jmctav23 said:


> is that a first or 2nd gen? Considering picking up a first gen frame and wonder about rear tire clearance...


I believe my Verhauen is the same as Joes, but black. It fits 'almost all' 29+ tires. Sadly it's not a true 'plus bike'.

I can fit any 29x3.0, but the sliders have to be in the 'long-half'. A 3.0 will rub that fancy plate if slammed. I currently have a29x2.8 Terrene McFly on an i40 rim- measures exactly 2.8 wide at the knobs; that fits with the sliders slammed, but it's tight. I could probably get a little rub under the right circumstances. Maybe.
On a geared setup that's probably not a big deal- just put it where it doesn't rub but on an SS it meant I could run certain ratios with a 3.0

34x20 is my favorite "all-around" ratio. It fits with the sliders full-stop forward, but you have to have a 2.8 or narrower tire. 
Still a great bike, IMO and works well for the desert trails I ride , and the way I do it.

I've heard second-hand that the boost version has a little more clearance and will fit most, maybe all 3.0s. Mine is a 142.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

mine is 135/142 and currently running 135 QR drop outs. I don't worry about CS length much. I just want to keep it in good spot to run multiple cogs. Run 34 chainring with 20,19,18 cogs. Most of the time I run the 19t. Now that I have started running 2.6 my plan is keep the 19t on that, but on my 2.3's put a 18t cog for a more racy setup. Since both fit under my fork I can swap wheels to change up the bike feel.


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## jmctav23 (Oct 16, 2010)

JoePAz said:


> mine is 135/142 and currently running 135 QR drop outs. I don't worry about CS length much. I just want to keep it in good spot to run multiple cogs. Run 34 chainring with 20,19,18 cogs. Most of the time I run the 19t. Now that I have started running 2.6 my plan is keep the 19t on that, but on my 2.3's put a 18t cog for a more racy setup. Since both fit under my fork I can swap wheels to change up the bike feel.


Thanks! thinking 2.6 would be perfect for the rear.


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## one incredible donkey (Jul 19, 2007)

I have a 2010 Jabberwocky, single speed. In the last few rides, my rear wheel has slipped in the horizontal dropouts, "tilting" to the left (meaning the tire hits my non-driveside chain stay). I adjusted the chain tensioners and tightened everything but it has still slipped. 

I use Halo hex bolts for skewers. I remember reading cautionary posts when I first got my bike, recommending not to tighten the hell out of them to prevent anything from breaking.

I brought it to a shop and the mechanic tried putting a washer on the skewer, thinking the Halo skewers weren't biting well-enough into the dropouts. That helped a little, but after a 1.5 hour ride, my tire was sitting a bit crooked (though less so than before). 

I have been nervous about tightening the Halo skewers too much because I recall reading that too much force could cause them to break. The mechanic at the shop told me I should tighten them as much as I can.

So, all of the introduction aside, I came to ask:

What bolt/skewers are you all using on your Jabberwocky builds?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I had a hex bolt skewer like that and stripped the nut on one.

Most people seem to like good Shimano skewers and Salsa. DT Swiss perhaps?

Are the chain tension adjusters coming loose? Can you lock those down better so they don't move?

What hub is this? Can it be converted to 135x10 thru- bolt or something more secure? I had Stan's hub with a Hadley 10mm thru-bolt for a long time, then bought a Hadley hub with the same setup before moving to 142x12 when I got a new frame.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Do you have a tug nut or similar tensioner installed?

I had an On-One frame with horizontal track-end dropouts and the wheel would 100% not stay in place without one. I actually put one on both the drive and non-drive side.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

Impetus said:


> Do you have a tug nut or similar tensioner installed?
> 
> I had an On-One frame with horizontal track-end dropouts and the wheel would 100% not stay in place without one. I actually put one on both the drive and non-drive side.
> 
> ...


I'm honestly surprised that you've needed to resort to the tuggnut even with a threaded axle and nut. I've only ever needed them with a QR, even shimano skewers. I do see the hood on the dropout would inhibit using a crescent wrench potentially. Do you use a torque wrench or long handled 1/4" socket wrench to tighten the nuts?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

dbhammercycle said:


> I'm honestly surprised that you've needed to resort to the tuggnut even with a threaded axle and nut. I've only ever needed them with a QR, even shimano skewers. I do see the hood on the dropout would inhibit using a crescent wrench potentially. Do you use a torque wrench or long handled 1/4" socket wrench to tighten the nuts?


I borrowed this pic from the internet to show what a tuggnut is, to illustrate its function. I was using a 135 QR.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

gotcha. 

One nice thing about the Surly tuggnuts is that they come with an adapter piece for the QR skewer as the main body fits a 10mm threaded axle. There are other options, MKS makes a nice tuggnut too.


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## one incredible donkey (Jul 19, 2007)

mack_turtle said:


> I had a hex bolt skewer like that and stripped the nut on one.
> 
> Most people seem to like good Shimano skewers and Salsa. DT Swiss perhaps?
> 
> ...


As far as I can tell, the tensioners are not moving but I haven't done any scientific tests to make sure. The Halo skewer bolts are not noticeably looser when I go to adjust the wheel back into position.

The hub is a Stan's 3.30 hub that came with a Flow wheel set. I'm not sure how it could be modified.



Impetus said:


> Do you have a tug nut or similar tensioner installed?
> 
> I had an On-One frame with horizontal track-end dropouts and the wheel would 100% not stay in place without one. I actually put one on both the drive and non-drive side.
> [Photo of tugnut]


I'm using the tensioners that came with the frame (see pic below). You can see the washer that the mechanic added.










The mechanic at the shop tried throwing on a Surly Tugnut but she was having trouble figuring out how it would offer an improvement.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Unfortunately, your pic seems to be missing.

That aside, the axle is definitely moving, if the drive side isn’t moving forward, the non drive side is moving backward. 
Personally, put some tape on both dropouts, mark the position of the axle and go ride. See what moves. At least you’ll know which side of the bike to address.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Get some 135x10 endcaps for that hub and buy a Hadley 10mm bolt from Balle racing.

I think you could do it with these: https://www.notubes.com/10x135-thru-axle-conversion-for-3-30-3-30ti-type-ii-disc-rear-hub

https://www.balleracing.com/hadley-rear-hub-thru-bolts/hadley-thru-bolt-135mm-x-10mm

Or this https://www.jensonusa.com/DT-Swiss-RWS-Thru-Bolt-Quick-Release


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## one incredible donkey (Jul 19, 2007)

Impetus said:


> Unfortunately, your pic seems to be missing.
> 
> That aside, the axle is definitely moving, if the drive side isn't moving forward, the non drive side is moving backward.
> Personally, put some tape on both dropouts, mark the position of the axle and go ride. See what moves. At least you'll know which side of the bike to address.


Strange. It was appearing at first. Here's the URL https://i.imgur.com/t5u0HwT.jpg



mack_turtle said:


> Get some 135x10 endcaps for that hub and buy a Hadley 10mm bolt from Balle racing.
> 
> I think you could do it with these: https://www.notubes.com/10x135-thru-axle-conversion-for-3-30-3-30ti-type-ii-disc-rear-hub
> 
> ...


I had no idea this was possible. Thanks. You think this would solve the problem?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Not sure it will solve the problem, but you can torque those big 10mm axles pretty hard and get a ton of bite on the dropout slots.

When you use the adjusters on your frame, do they have some sort of locknut? I would rig a nylock nut on there if not, adjust the axle to just where you want it, then lock the bolts in place to make sure they are not wiggling loose while you ride. That will not prevent one side of the axle from slipping back, but it will eliminate the possibility of either side slipping forward.


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

OID, I wonder if the set screw flexes a bit and the rear axle on teh drive side is able to jump slightly above or below the set screw moving the axle forward when you crank down. Or is there a plate at the end of the set screw to keep the axle from moving forward? I'm not finding good pics online that show that dropout without a wheel in the frame.

I've not used this type of dropout adjustment, but I suspect it might be why the newer frames use Paragon sliders.


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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

one incredible donkey said:


> What bolt/skewers are you all using on your Jabberwocky builds?


i used to have an older jabber...maybe the 2nd interation i believe...i used an old XT quick release and it worked perfectly. never a problem. i'm over 200lbs too.

i have the latest jabber now. the slider bolts they come with are complete ****. swap to nice PMW ti bolts immediately.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I agree, the original bolts for the Jabber sliders sucked. I bought some nice stainless steel bolts at Ace for a few bucks to replace them. I think they took a big old 8mm allen too.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

I'm in the tugnut and shimano skewer crowd. Rode a similar bike for years without issue.


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## ericswab (Jan 5, 2012)

waltaz said:


> Hi all...just noticing this thread, so I'll weigh in. Longtime MTBR member, but haven't posted much in recent years. Just got a new Optimus Ti 29+, so totally restoked, and have been getting re-engaged here.
> 
> Some background:
> - I've been SS'ing since ~2005, on Kona Unit 29's (cracked two), Niner SIR9's (cracked three), and two Optimus Ti's ("first gen" from 2013, and the new OpTi)
> ...


Not sure where to post this ? Can you compare the Optimus Ti to the new Pivot Les your on now ? I'm on an older Sir 9 and ready for something little more trail oriented with newer geometry. Which bike are you faster overall on ? Is one more fun than the other ? How has the carbon bike been on the long races that you do ?

Thanks for your input


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

ericswab said:


> Not sure where to post this ? Can you compare the Optimus Ti to the new Pivot Les your on now ? I'm on an older Sir 9 and ready for something little more trail oriented with newer geometry. Which bike are you faster overall on ? Is one more fun than the other ? How has the carbon bike been on the long races that you do ?
> 
> Thanks for your input


Good questions. I love the LES, and have two of them: my new SS, and the same 2017 LES frame set up with gears. I love the ride and geometry, and it feels light and fast. You will definitely dig the geometry vs. your current SIR 9.

I'm faster on my LES, as it's lighter, and just feels faster and more precise. I would say they are equally fun, with the added bonus for the Optimus that you can run a plus setup, if you want. The Optimus set up with 3.0 tires is ridiculously fun and comfortable. I had a wheelset for that, but rarely ran it, so it didn't end up being important to me. But if you want to run plus, Optimus is your choice.

I've done a few long rides and races on the LES, and just did a 24 hour solo race at Enchanted Forest, in NM. A very rocky course, and I got beat up pretty good on the carbon hardtail. I did the same race and course last year on the Optimus, and don't recall getting beat up as bad. That said, I felt, as did others, that the course was rockier this year. All in all, I was much faster this year on the LES (two hours faster for the same number of laps, plus another lap this year), but I'd say the LES was not the best-suited for that course. The Optimus would have been a more compliant ride, but a bit heavier. Tradeoffs...

Hope this helps!


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## ericswab (Jan 5, 2012)

Thanks for your response, your posts are what got me thinking about the optimus in the first place. Anytime I've tried a carbon hard tail I've thought the same thing, "gee this is fast, but it beats you up more" plus I worry about breaking it.

I don't think plus tires are a big deal to me, maybe the mid-fat 2.6 stuff for the winter. My concern was that this may be a lateral move from the Sir, but I'm convinced it won't be. I tried a "new" Sir 9, it descended better, but it just felt heavy and slow overall.

It definitely helps, Thanks!


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

ericswab said:


> Thanks for your response, your posts are what got me thinking about the optimus in the first place. Anytime I've tried a carbon hard tail I've thought the same thing, "gee this is fast, but it beats you up more" plus I worry about breaking it.
> 
> I don't think plus tires are a big deal to me, maybe the mid-fat 2.6 stuff for the winter. My concern was that this may be a lateral move from the Sir, but I'm convinced it won't be. I tried a "new" Sir 9, it descended better, but it just felt heavy and slow overall.
> 
> It definitely helps, Thanks!


No problem! An Optimus Ti or a LES would be a big improvement over the SIR.

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## jmctav23 (Oct 16, 2010)

Still putting a huge grin on my face this season! Gravel adventures with the Fisticuff SS almost every weekend and most weeknights with these long evenings.


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## kgraham11 (Jan 29, 2005)

waltaz said:


> No problem! An Optimus Ti or a LES would be a big improvement over the SIR.


Hey, Walt. As well, I'm looking to replace an old scandium One9. Looking at the Optimus and fall right in the middle of small and medium frame at 5'8" and 30" inseam.

What size frame were you on and for what height/inseam?

Thanks,
Ken


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## coleam (Aug 8, 2009)

kgraham11 said:


> Hey, Walt. As well, I'm looking to replace an old scandium One9. Looking at the Optimus and fall right in the middle of small and medium frame at 5'8" and 30" inseam.
> 
> What size frame were you on and for what height/inseam?
> 
> ...


I'm the same size as you and I'm really happy with my medium Verhauen. Geo is pretty similar to the OpTi.

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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

kgraham11 said:


> Hey, Walt. As well, I'm looking to replace an old scandium One9. Looking at the Optimus and fall right in the middle of small and medium frame at 5'8" and 30" inseam.
> 
> What size frame were you on and for what height/inseam?
> 
> ...


I am actually going back to an Op Ti from the LES, for my SS. I really miss the ride of Ti on my SS.

I am 5'10", with a 32" inseam, and was on a Medium Op Ti, and am getting another Medium. They run long. All of my other bikes - LES, Yeti SB100 and Intense Primer - are/were Larges.

I would email Tom at Vassago to confirm, but I think you could actually do either, but I'd probably go up to a Medium.

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## kgraham11 (Jan 29, 2005)

Thanks, guys, for the quick replies. Geo tab for Optimus is currently blank awaiting 2020 numbers. Waiting to see if there are some changes coming. I've messaged Tom to see if I can get the scoop and his recommendation.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

At 5'8", a medium Vassago might seem a bit long. Vassago was ahead of the curve with the long reach, low BB craze. I have found that there's a great deal of personal preference involved, but I tend to like more compact-fitting bikes.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> At 5'8", a medium Vassago might seem a bit long. Vassago was ahead of the curve with the long reach, low BB craze. I have found that there's a great deal of personal preference involved, but I tend to like more compact-fitting bikes.


Agreed; which is why I prefer a Medium Vassago, and a Large SB100.

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## coleam (Aug 8, 2009)

mack_turtle said:


> At 5'8", a medium Vassago might seem a bit long. Vassago was ahead of the curve with the long reach, low BB craze. I have found that there's a great deal of personal preference involved, but I tend to like more compact-fitting bikes.


There's definitely some personal preference involved, but I'm very happy with a medium (2018 VerHauen), and I'm 5'7.5" on a good day.

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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

My Jabberwocky was the last generation they made, and at 5'9 with a 32" inseam I was very comfortable on a Medium. Vassago does have a bit more reach than most of your off the shelf steel hard tails, but it's not so much more that I would consider downsizing. I fiddled with stems 10mm in each direction, but ultimately had no problem with the Medium.


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## fixgeardan (Aug 20, 2004)

What? No you cant have it back! Well maybe for the right price!


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

kgraham11 said:


> Hey, Walt. As well, I'm looking to replace an old scandium One9. Looking at the Optimus and fall right in the middle of small and medium frame at 5'8" and 30" inseam.
> 
> What size frame were you on and for what height/inseam?
> 
> ...


I just picked up a Medium Optimus Ti. I used to be a small verhauen. I am 5'7" maybe 5'8". I have longer inseam so no issues with seat height. I really like the medium and I was happy to go with it. I used to run an 80mm stem on the Verhauen, but run a 70 on the Optimus. Plus I feel like I have more room standing on the Optimus. Handling is improved as reach is longer too. I did move the seat forward a lot as my other bikes are steeper seat tubes so I am used to 75 or 76 deg seat angles. I am running the exact bars I was on the Verhauen. Overall I am very happy and so happy I went medium.


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## kgraham11 (Jan 29, 2005)

JoePAz said:


> I just picked up a Medium Optimus Ti. I used to be a small verhauen. I am 5'7" maybe 5'8". I have longer inseam so no issues with seat height. I really like the medium and I was happy to go with it. I used to run an 80mm stem on the Verhauen, but run a 70 on the Optimus. Plus I feel like I have more room standing on the Optimus. Handling is improved as reach is longer too. I did move the seat forward a lot as my other bikes are steeper seat tubes so I am used to 75 or 76 deg seat angles. I am running the exact bars I was on the Verhauen. Overall I am very happy and so happy I went medium.
> 
> View attachment 1309537


Thanks, Joe. I got an email back from Tom today saying there are some changes to the Optimus geo for 2020. It will be near identical to current Verhauen. I'm thinking I'll be good with the medium.


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## kgraham11 (Jan 29, 2005)

JoePAz said:


> View attachment 1309537


And.... Nice ride!


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## willawry'd (Oct 3, 2005)

JoePAz said:


> I just picked up a Medium Optimus Ti. I used to be a small verhauen. I am 5'7" maybe 5'8". I have longer inseam so no issues with seat height. I really like the medium and I was happy to go with it. I used to run an 80mm stem on the Verhauen, but run a 70 on the Optimus. Plus I feel like I have more room standing on the Optimus. Handling is improved as reach is longer too. I did move the seat forward a lot as my other bikes are steeper seat tubes so I am used to 75 or 76 deg seat angles. I am running the exact bars I was on the Verhauen. Overall I am very happy and so happy I went medium.


I went from a medium VerHauen to a large Optimus and feel like I lost something in the translation. The medium seemed much more playful and compliant. The medium had more exposed seatpost (ti) so maybe that had something to do with it? Also, with the relatively level top tube, I can't get the brake levers down where I like them without hitting the top tube on the large...didn't have that issue with the medium.

* Added a blacksheep layback seatpost after this pic was taken to complement the watson bars.

Edit: This is the 2016 geo and I'm 6'.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

After years on Gen 1 and Gen 2 Optimus Ti SS's, I switched to a Pivot LES SS a year ago because I wanted to go really light on the build, and because I have a geared LES and love it. I had zero issues with the LES, and still the love the frame and geometry, but the ride is just too harsh on the rocks of AZ, and I decided a don't need a super light SS. I'm racing my Yeti SB100 more and more, vs the SS, and want my SS to be more along the lines of super fun and comfortable. Hence, back to Ti!

Anyways, just swapped everything over, and here she is! Size Medium (I'm 5'10") - 23.46 lbs, including the pedals, cages (Ti) and Garmin mount. I'm thrilled with how it came out!

BTW, don't rip me for the steerer tube and spacers - the LES has a longer head tube, and I didn't want to cut anything down until I get the cockpit dialed in to my liking.

























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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

chain is too loose. 







BTW.... Nice Walt.


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## Ruckus99ss (Aug 31, 2014)

My new optimus is together. I went crazy on the colors but love how it came out and what Vassago did the with anodizing. 20.9lbs as shown so not to bad with the dropper etc


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Need a different chain ring rainbow bright. 

btw... what does the wheelset weigh?


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## Ruckus99ss (Aug 31, 2014)

JoePAz said:


> Need a different chain ring rainbow bright.
> 
> btw... what does the wheelset weigh?


1190grams without Tires, with tape and valves


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## bloaker (Feb 13, 2015)

Here is my turd of a Jabberwocky...

Not one thing special about it except it goes where I point it an never complains. It is the least expensive bike I own, it just somehow seems to get the most ride time.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Ruckus99ss said:


> 1190grams without Tires, with tape and valves


Ok that is 300 gram savings over mine.


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## Strugglebus (Dec 6, 2017)

waltaz said:


> I am actually going back to an Op Ti from the LES, for my SS. I really miss the ride of Ti on my SS.
> 
> I am 5'10", with a 32" inseam, and was on a Medium Op Ti, and am getting another Medium. They run long. All of my other bikes - LES, Yeti SB100 and Intense Primer - are/were Larges.
> 
> ...


what length stem are you running?

at 5'11 I'm right on the edge between medium and large. All my other bikes have been a large so I'm leaning in that direction ( chameleon, spot rocker, karate monkey ) just second guessing before I pull the trigger


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Strugglebus said:


> what length stem are you running?


50mm

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## Strugglebus (Dec 6, 2017)

waltaz said:


> 50mm
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok good to know. Thanks for the quick reply.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Strugglebus said:


> Ok good to know. Thanks for the quick reply.


I'd probably go Large, if I were you, with a 40-50mm stem. I wouldn't want my size/cockpit any smaller, and have mulled over going to a 60 or 70mm stem. All of my other bikes are Large - I tend to be right in-between sizes, and usually size up, but the OpTi fits a little bigger.

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## Strugglebus (Dec 6, 2017)

waltaz said:


> I'd probably go Large, if I were you, with a 40-50mm stem. I wouldn't want my size/cockpit any smaller, and have mulled over going to a 60 or 70mm stem. All of my other bikes are Large - I tend to be right in-between sizes, and usually size up, but the OpTi fits a little bigger.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


that's the direction I'm leaning. Just waiting for an email back to confirm the new Geo numbers as it's still not on the website. If it is similar to the Verheun, then I should be good.

last question... 120 or 130 fork?


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Strugglebus said:


> that's the direction I'm leaning. Just waiting for an email back to confirm the new Geo numbers as it's still not on the website. If it is similar to the Verheun, then I should be good.
> 
> last question... 120 or 130 fork?


I have 120. They have a Radimus Ti that takes a 130 or 140mm fork, but the OpTi is optimized for 120.

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## willawry'd (Oct 3, 2005)

I thought the older OptimusTi's were optimized for 120 but aren't the 2020 models optimized for 130? ...at least that's what their listed geos are based.

VerHauen:









The Medium vs. Large debate is probably best answered by what you're used to and/or your terrain.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

willawry'd said:


> I thought the older OptimusTi's were optimized for 120 but aren't the 2020 models optimized for 130? ...at least that's what their listed geos are based.
> 
> VerHauen:
> 
> ...


That I don't know. I had the previous version before the current 2020 frame, and figured the 2020 was also optimized for 120mm.

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## jwal (Aug 10, 2013)

From my recent emails with Tom, the 2020 OptimusTi is based on the VerHauen geo that is listed. He has not had the chance to update the website.


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

Just wanted to mention what I love most about Vassago frames is the versatility of set-up with different, drivetrains, tire sizes and fork lengths. Currently in late summer pseudo bikepacking mode with matching Odis fork.


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## jchan417 (Apr 19, 2018)

Anyone have any updates on the Optimus TI? Or any first-hand input on the current VerHauen?

I'm starting to plan my next SS build (coming from a 2015 SIR 9), and I think I've narrowed it down to either a Chumba Sendero or the VerHauen (although if the new Optimus TI is close to the current geometry for the VerHauen, that may put it on the radar).


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## gsteitz (Sep 9, 2011)

jchan417 said:


> Anyone have any updates on the Optimus TI? Or any first-hand input on the current VerHauen?
> 
> I'm starting to plan my next SS build (coming from a 2015 SIR 9), and I think I've narrowed it down to either a Chumba Sendero or the VerHauen (although if the new Optimus TI is close to the current geometry for the VerHauen, that may put it on the radar).


I've had both a Chumba Stella and currently a Sendero, in my opinion I preferred both to my previous VerHauen. The Sendero is pretty much perfection!

In addition, I know more than a half a dozen riders that have transitioned from Vassago to Chumba and none the other way around.

Response, service and craftsmanship from Chumba is second to none.


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## jchan417 (Apr 19, 2018)

gsteitz said:


> I've had both a Chumba Stella and currently a Sendero, in my opinion I preferred both to my previous VerHauen. The Sendero is pretty much perfection!
> 
> In addition, I know more than a half a dozen riders that have transitioned from Vassago to Chumba and none the other way around.
> 
> Response, service and craftsmanship from Chumba is second to none.


Would you say the cost premium of Chumba is worth it over Vassago? I wanted a Stella TI for the longest time, until I heard they didn't actually fabricate the frames in-house. The Sendero seems like what I'm looking for in a new SS that is a bit more capable, and designed around a 120-130mm fork. I just happened to stumble across the VerHauen, which seems to be the Vassago equivalent of a Sendero, just with longer reach. and lower price tag.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I know several people who have broken Vassagos over the years, myself included. several cracked chainstays and I have seen a few headtubes sheared off. on mine, there was a crack at the top of the head tube/ top tube on a Jabberwocky. Vassago repaired it for me and repainted it and it turned out great, but I done with them. I know a lot of those same people who are riding Chumbas now.


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## gsteitz (Sep 9, 2011)

jchan417 said:


> Would you say the cost premium of Chumba is worth it over Vassago? I wanted a Stella TI for the longest time, until I heard they didn't actually fabricate the frames in-house. The Sendero seems like what I'm looking for in a new SS that is a bit more capable, and designed around a 120-130mm fork. I just happened to stumble across the VerHauen, which seems to be the Vassago equivalent of a Sendero, just with longer reach. and lower price tag.


See mack_turtle's reply up above, I was in the same boat.

In regards to the Ti Stella, I would't have any concerns about fabrication. It's designed by Chumba and is subject to all of their quality control. That said I love the ride of steel.

Be careful on the geo, the bikes ride very differently. Both my Vassagos rode very big, at 5'9" I preferred a small in their geometry. I also did not care for the low BB height. I ride in very rocky terrain in Central Texas and I really appreciate the more nimble feel and higher BB of either of the Chumbas.


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## willawry'd (Oct 3, 2005)

jchan417 said:


> Anyone have any updates on the Optimus TI? Or any first-hand input on the current VerHauen?
> 
> I'm starting to plan my next SS build (coming from a 2015 SIR 9), and I think I've narrowed it down to either a Chumba Sendero or the VerHauen (although if the new Optimus TI is close to the current geometry for the VerHauen, that may put it on the radar).


Hoping to get my new VerHauen soon.

For what it's worth, my OptimusTi (2017) is a little stiffer than my previous VerHauen (also a 2017). And like gsteitz said, the Vassagos do seem to ride big (or maybe I'm wheelbase sensitive). I'm 6' and going with a medium. Previous VerHauen was a medium and current Optimus is a large.


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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

my buddy who's in the market got an email from Tom saying that a new batch of Jabbers will be coming this fall.


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

Impetus said:


> Momentary identity crisis:
> View attachment 1197281
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's a dropper on my rigid singlespeed.


What are the specs on your dropper? Trying to calculate if I can run a 30.9 shimmed 170 on a large Jabber?


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

For those of you with the latest geo Optimus Ti or VerHauen, what length forks are you running? I'm considering 120 or 130. 

Just picked up an Opt ti on Black Friday.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

kustomz said:


> What are the specs on your dropper? Trying to calculate if I can run a 30.9 shimmed 170 on a large Jabber?


It's not a Jabberwocky. Sorry.

That's a Verhauen. It has a 27.2 seatpost, so that's a 100mm dropper.

I just bought a 2020 Optimus if it's any use to you, I'm 5'9", ride a medium frame, which has a 430mm seattube, and I fit a 210mm OneUp post into it.










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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

So Cal RX said:


> For those of you with the latest geo Optimus Ti or VerHauen, what length forks are you running? I'm considering 120 or 130.
> 
> Just picked up an Opt ti on Black Friday.


Vassago is very conservative with the term "optimized" IMO.

I'm running my OpTi with a 120 fork and. -2* AngleSet. I like it A LOT. I'd have no hesitation running a longer fork, especially with a regular headset. 
A friend offered to lend me his 140 Fox34. I'm tempted to try a 140 with the AngleSet. The HTA would be somewhere in the mid 60's. 
I bet it'd be RAD.

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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

Impetus said:


> Vassago is very conservative with the term "optimized" IMO.
> 
> I'm running my OpTi with a 120 fork and. -2* AngleSet. I like it A LOT. I'd have no hesitation running a longer fork, especially with a regular headset.
> A friend offered to lend me his 140 Fox34. I'm tempted to try a 140 with the AngleSet. The HTA would be somewhere in the mid 60's.
> ...


Rich Dillen rides an Optimus Ti and earlier this year, swapped out the Fox 34 SC 120mm for another Fox with 140mm of travel. He talks about it in his November 10th blog post.
https://teamdicky.blogspot.com/2020/11/forking-content.html


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

Impetus and BrianU, thanks for the responses. Both very helpful. It appears Rich Dillen has the older geo Opt ti (geo was updated earlier this year). But if that's the case, it even gives me even more confidence to run a 130 fork. His geo had a recommendation of 100-120 from what I understand. 

I'm now wondering about offset (51 vs 42 or 43). It seems the longer fork would benefit a bit from a greater offset, but as long as the steering doesn't slow down significantly, I'm leaning towards the shorter offset.


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## Garcon (Dec 18, 2020)

I just got a 2020 Optimus Ti - asked Tom and he recommended short offset fork.


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

Thanks @Garcon very helpful. I'm starting to get all the parts for my build. Will be waiting a little while for the wheels (didn't have a boost rear wheel with a SS or HG cassette body), but let's post our builds when we get there!

BTW, what fork are you going with? I'm looking at 130mm Pike Select or Ultimate, or Fox 34.


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## Garcon (Dec 18, 2020)

@So Cal RX Still trying to decide between saving some weight with one of the lighter 120 mm forks or a Fox 34 130.
The VerHauen geo chart briefly appeared on the Optimus page on the Vassago site. When it did I asked Tom about the geo - since that chart indicates a 130mm 20% sagged fork measurement. He said that the geo chart for the Optimus was for a 120mm fork. But shortly after that, that geo chart disappeared from the Optimus page. From this exchange I'm assuming that Optimus HA is 67.5 with a 120mm fork, and perhaps slightly slacker around 67 with a 130mm fork.


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

Garcon said:


> @So Cal RX Still trying to decide between saving some weight with one of the lighter 120 mm forks or a Fox 34 130.
> The VerHauen geo chart briefly appeared on the Optimus page on the Vassago site. When it did I asked Tom about the geo - since that chart indicates a 130mm 20% sagged fork measurement. He said that the geo chart for the Optimus was for a 120mm fork. But shortly after that, that geo chart disappeared from the Optimus page. From this exchange I'm assuming that Optimus HA is 67.5 with a 120mm fork, and perhaps slightly slacker around 67 with a 130mm fork.


Hmmm. ? He's told at least a few of us that the latest Opt ti geo is the same as the VerHauen, which is listed at 120-140 recommended and 67.5 for 130 20% sagged, so it's surprising he told you it's based on 120. Someone was also questioning the 130 20% sagged number, not believing it's that slack, thinking 67.5 non sagged. And HA sagged vs non sagged makes a significant difference on a hardtail, since the rear doesn't sag to compensate.

Tom was nice to work with during ordering, the Black Friday deal was awesome, and I think I'll be very happy with the bike with any of those possibilities being true, but it sure would help if he always had the latest, accurate info on the website.


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## Garcon (Dec 18, 2020)

Agreed - Tom was great to deal with.
It is a little silly for the geo to have any degree of mystery to it since it is pretty essential info for frame choice


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I realize this is far from scientific (it's an iPhone measure) but here's my Optimus:
120mm fork (51mm offset)
-2* Works AngleSet
2.6 Forekaster up front, 2.6 Rekon out back.
Level concrete floor. Obviously fork is not sagged.










Make of that what you will.

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## Garcon (Dec 18, 2020)

well that ought to be slack enough!
Even with precision limits of iphone level, that is still a little surprising.


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

After a bit of a delay, my wheels finally arrived, so I built up my Optimus ti. Still need to install my dropper since I realized afterward that I need the cranks and BB off to route it through.

Build: 
Optimus Ti- small (I'm 5'8.5")
Pike Select 130mm 42mm offset
Nox Teocallis on I9 Hydras with Surly 18t cog
Sram X0 170mm cranks with 32t ring
XT brakes (older 2-piston)
One Up bar (got the higher rise since I got the small frame with shorter head tube)
Vittoria Mezcal 2.35 rear Barzo 2.35 front (trying Vittorias after riding mostly Maxxis for years)
One Up dropper 180mm (will replace the Thomson shown)










Weighs 23.9 lbs as shown, but I threw tubes in temporarily to start, and am guessing that going tubeless and switching my seatpost will be a wash for the most part.

I also pulled the bonehead move of trying to remove the upper waterbottle bolt/boss on the seat tube, thinking it was some kinda mistake, and stripped it. Afterward found out from Tom it was an external boss to allow for deeper dropper post insertion. Totally makes sense. I was just so eager to build this thing up.

Anyway, very excited to take it for a ride!


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## Garcon (Dec 18, 2020)

So Cal RX said:


> I also pulled the bonehead move of trying to remove the upper waterbottle bolt/boss on the seat tube, thinking it was some kinda mistake, and stripped it. Afterward found out from Tom it was an external boss to allow for deeper dropper post insertion. Totally makes sense. I was just so eager to build this thing up.


Ha! I did the same thing! And also asked Tom WTF that was. Just stopped short of stripping it tho. Totally unnecessary for my post and I think it's a totally ugly way to have a boss on there. I want to run a frame bag so may end up just cutting the thing off.


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## Garcon (Dec 18, 2020)

BTW - bike looks awesome!


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

delete.

nice looking bike.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

So Cal RX said:


> View attachment 1918870
> 
> 
> SSweet!!


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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

I got my repaired jabber back from Tom yesterday. He cut out the TT and replaced it. Fresh paint.









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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

Garcon said:


> Ha! I did the same thing! And also asked Tom WTF that was. Just stopped short of stripping it tho. Totally unnecessary for my post and I think it's a totally ugly way to have a boss on there. I want to run a frame bag so may end up just cutting the thing off.


I'm not the only one! And yeah, I'll probably just use the one bottle holder, so I might cut it off too.


Garcon said:


> BTW - bike looks awesome!


Thanks!


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

So you guys don't need two bottles when you're out for 4-6 hours with the crew in the heat of summer? Must be ultra fit or wear water on your back. My JabberWocky has two bottle mounts and is a must in the midwest humidity.


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

kustomz said:


> So you guys don't need two bottles when you're out for 4-6 hours with the crew in the heat of summer? Must be ultra fit or wear water on your back. My JabberWocky has two bottle mounts and is a must in the midwest humidity.


I wear a hydration pack. For longer, hotter rides, I also do some type of hydration/energy drink mix in a bottle. I still may try to fix what I did, but I would seldom carry 2 bottles.


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## 2:01 (May 10, 2010)

kustomz said:


> So you guys don't need two bottles when you're out for 4-6 hours with the crew in the heat of summer? Must be ultra fit or wear water on your back. My JabberWocky has two bottle mounts and is a must in the midwest humidity.


I carry 2 for 3-4 hour rides and 3 for 6hrs. And sometimes that's not enough. But I hate packs. Fortunately, new Vassago's have 3 mounts.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

kustomz said:


> So you guys don't need two bottles when you're out for 4-6 hours with the crew in the heat of summer? Must be ultra fit or wear water on your back. My JabberWocky has two bottle mounts and is a must in the midwest humidity.


I sometimes carry one bottle of 'nutrition' for hot/sweaty rides. Ususally cytomax or gatorade, otherwise it's a 1.5L Osprey hip pack, or a 3L camelbak for me, year round in AZ. I still ride when its up to 110*F. I tap out when it's hotter than that.
I actually think the 'under' bottle is a terrible idea. It's literally putting something that goes in my mouth in the absolute most direct line of fire of crap coming off my front tire. 
I call that under-bottle a "downtube protector."


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

Impetus said:


> I sometimes carry one bottle of 'nutrition' for hot/sweaty rides. Ususally cytomax or gatorade, otherwise it's a 1.5L Osprey hip pack, or a 3L camelbak for me, year round in AZ. I still ride when its up to 110*F. I tap out when it's hotter than that.
> I actually think the 'under' bottle is a terrible idea. It's literally putting something that goes in my mouth in the absolute most direct line of fire of crap coming off my front tire.
> I call that under-bottle a "downtube protector."


Yep, that's why I use the Camelbak Dirt series of bottles to keep the crud out of the squirty-squirt.


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## 2:01 (May 10, 2010)

Garcon said:


> Ha! I did the same thing! And also asked Tom WTF that was. Just stopped short of stripping it tho. Totally unnecessary for my post and I think it's a totally ugly way to have a boss on there. I want to run a frame bag so may end up just cutting the thing off.


Same with me. Glad I didn't do anything until I asked him. Wish they would just post that bit of info on their site. It's a really clever solution. Allows me to run a longer dropper.


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

@Garcon @Impetus @2:01 or others with a 2020 Opt ti: what dropper posts are you running and how the heck did you route the housing? Wait, Impetus is running a One Up. That's what I'm trying to install. How did you route it? I just can't get the housing around that sharp bend and up the seat tube. I get it from the top tube, down into the BB, and pointed up into the seat tube, but it just won't go. Help!


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## 2:01 (May 10, 2010)

So Cal RX said:


> @Garcon @Impetus @2:01 or others with a 2020 Opt ti: what dropper posts are you running and how the heck did you route the housing? Wait, Impetus is running a One Up. That's what I'm trying to install. How did you route it? I just can't get the housing around that sharp bend and up the seat tube. I get it from the top tube, down into the BB, and pointed up into the seat tube, but it just won't go. Help!


Took me a little bit to figure out.

There may be a better way, but the way I did it was:
I tied a small nut to the end of a piece of string. Small enough to go through the hole on the downtube. Sent that through and up the seat tube. Then tied that to the very end of the cable HOUSING. Tied it tight then put a wrap of duct tape around it. Now when you get to that sharp bend, tug on the string and it should pull right up it.


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

2:01 said:


> Took me a little bit to figure out.
> 
> There may be a better way, but the way I did it was:
> I tied a small nut to the end of a piece of string. Small enough to go through the hole on the downtube. Sent that through and up the seat tube. Then tied that to the very end of the cable HOUSING. Tied it tight then put a wrap of duct tape around it. Now when you get to that sharp bend, tug on the string and it should pull right up it.


Thanks @2:01 I actually had a piece of yarn through, taped it to the housing, and tried to pull it, but it broke. Sounds like I just need to do the same thing with either a stronger string or cable so I can use a bit more force.


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## 2:01 (May 10, 2010)

So Cal RX said:


> Thanks @2:01 I actually had a piece of yarn through, taped it to the housing, and tried to pull it, but it broke. Sounds like I just need to do the same thing with either a stronger string or cable so I can use a bit more force.


Yes, something a bit stronger will do the trick. I just had some thicker thread from my daughter's craft bin that worked.
I initially struggled with it for a day trying to thread it through before using the string. It was done in 2 minutes.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I made Tom do it before I took possession of the frame. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Posted today...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

^Sweet. Strip and polish the crank arms, and it'd be perfect.


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

2:01 said:


> Yes, something a bit stronger will do the trick. I just had some thicker thread from my daughter's craft bin that worked.
> I initially struggled with it for a day trying to thread it through before using the string. It was done in 2 minutes.





Impetus said:


> I made Tom do it before I took possession of the frame.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I finally was able to get the housing through by routing the cable, then Gorilla-taping the housing to that and yanking it through. Thanks for your help 2:01. Even Tom mentioned it's a pain, but hopefully just a one time deal. I've been stoked on the ride even without the dropper, so I'm anxious to get out there again!

Just to close out my setup journey, my water bottle cage actually holds well even though I thought I stripped it. I also set my tires up tubeless, so I should be set for a while ?


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## xen0ph0n (Oct 16, 2018)

This seems like the right place to ask this question:

I'm around 6'1/2" with a 33in inseam. Planning to build up an Optimus Ti into a single speed XC race bike with a 100 or 120mm fork and a 60-80mm stem. I'll be using it for racing and XC singletrack riding. I assumed I'd fall solidly into the large size, but what I've noticed is that the reach and stack numbers of the Opt Ti medium frame match more closely to large size XC race bikes from Scott and Specialized.

Bike Reach Stack STA
Opt Ti Med 451 618 74.5
Spesh Epic HT Large 455 622 74
Scott Scale Large 443 618 73.6
Opt Ti Large 475 625 74.5

Has anyone around my height built up a 2021 Optimus Ti to race on? I'm leaning towards the Medium despite my height being solidly in the Large range on the VerHausen size chart.

EDIT: On the other hand, the Norco Revolver HT is sitting at 482 614 75.3 which is a lot closer to the Large Opt Ti... so now I'm thinking the large is the way to go.


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

xen0ph0n said:


> This seems like the right place to ask this question:
> 
> I'm around 6'1/2" with a 33in inseam. Planning to build up an Optimus Ti into a single speed XC race bike with a 100 or 120mm fork and a 60-80mm stem. I'll be using it for racing and XC singletrack riding. I assumed I'd fall solidly into the large size, but what I've noticed is that the reach and stack numbers of the Opt Ti medium frame match more closely to large size XC race bikes from Scott and Specialized.
> 
> ...


I went through a similar decision. I was between a S and M at 5'8.5". Never had a S frame before, but ended up going with it, and am happy with the choice. Running a 60mm stem.

In addition to comparing geo against similar options, I'd also recommend comparing against your current or past bikes and how they feel/felt to you. I did this, and the Opt ti was as big or bigger than my old M Kona Raijin, and L Soma Juice, and I liked the feel of those.

I'd also recommend the 120 fork for the Opt ti, even for XC racing. Isn't the range 120-140?


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

xen0ph0n said:


> This seems like the right place to ask this question:
> 
> I'm around 6'1/2" with a 33in inseam. Planning to build up an Optimus Ti into a single speed XC race bike with a 100 or 120mm fork and a 60-80mm stem. I'll be using it for racing and XC singletrack riding. I assumed I'd fall solidly into the large size, but what I've noticed is that the reach and stack numbers of the Opt Ti medium frame match more closely to large size XC race bikes from Scott and Specialized.
> 
> ...


I'm 5'10" on a Medium, and I'd definitely recommend a Large for you, rather than Medium. Also, the frame is designed around a 120mm fork, so I'd go with that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bluebeat007 (Mar 17, 2004)

I’m 6’ on a large Radimus. I would not want it any smaller, if anything, I’d like the reach a little longer.


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## willawry'd (Oct 3, 2005)

xen0ph0n said:


> This seems like the right place to ask this question:
> 
> I'm around 6'1/2" with a 33in inseam. Planning to build up an Optimus Ti into a single speed XC race bike with a 100 or 120mm fork and a 60-80mm stem. I'll be using it for racing and XC singletrack riding. I assumed I'd fall solidly into the large size, but what I've noticed is that the reach and stack numbers of the Opt Ti medium frame match more closely to large size XC race bikes from Scott and Specialized.
> 
> ...


Either will be fine. Just depends on your preferences. 
A Medium will get you a:
Shorter wheelbase
More exposed seatpost (more compliant)
Longer stem

I'm 6' with a 33" inseam and long arms on a medium OptimusTi.
Bike setup:
Layback ti seatpost with about 9.75" exposed (love the extra compliance)
60mm 15 degree rise stem + 30mm spacers
Watson Ti bar equivalent to Salsa's 23 degree Bend2 Bar
Niner RDO fork 490 AC + Wolftooth's lower 20mm extender

I'm not much of a racer but I keep my bars pretty much level with the saddle.


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## Garcon (Dec 18, 2020)

I'm 5'10'', 32 in inseam and M is about perfect with 50mm stem. Wouldn't want it any shorter with this length stem.


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## Garcon (Dec 18, 2020)

Any more HA measurements out there? Funny that this is so mysterious.
I tried with the iphone but the measurement is super sensitive to orientation. Best I could tell it was 66-66.5 unsagged with a 120mm fork.
I think that pretty much lines up with the 67.5 sagged estimate from Tom.


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## one incredible donkey (Jul 19, 2007)

I've been ghosted by Vassago after requesting a bike build and making progress. During the last week in April we were discussing the process and I was really excited to get a new bike. Tom was super communicative all through that week in April. Then May came. No replies. Now June is rolling through. No replies.

It's frustrating because I really wanted another Vassago but this is making it tough to be a fan. It makes me really nervous in case i experience issues with a new frame. Will they answer then?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

one incredible donkey said:


> Will they answer then?


The answer to that is no. Can confirm based on my experience.


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## Bluebeat007 (Mar 17, 2004)

I’ve had quite the opposite experience. I’ve cracked my Vassago twice. Tom was great with communication and I had both new frames in my hands within 4-5 weeks from initial contact. He was great with answering all my questions before the initial purchase too. I’m sorry to hear about the ghosting because I know it can be super frustrating. I guess I was lucky.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Bluebeat007 said:


> I've cracked my Vassago twice.


I mean, I'm glad you had a good customer service experience, but this should tell everyone exactly what they need to know.


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## Bluebeat007 (Mar 17, 2004)

Thankfuly the head tube/top tube/head tube junction has been completely redesigned. I’ve been beating the heck out of it without issue thus far. Fingers crossed for more of the same.


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## jct (Mar 26, 2004)

Bluebeat007 said:


> Thankfuly the head tube/top tube/head tube junction has been completely redesigned. I've been beating the heck out of it without issue thus far. Fingers crossed for more of the same.


you know who does the repairs for Vassago? does tom do them himself or does he hire it out? i had my Jabb fixed over the holidays. it took 2 months door to door and communications with Tom was generally pretty OK.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Bluebeat007 said:


> Thankfuly the head tube/top tube/head tube junction has been completely redesigned. I've been beating the heck out of it without issue thus far. Fingers crossed for more of the same.


The head tube was a common break point in their frames, but mine actually broke at all of the seat tube junctions. It was bad.


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## Bluebeat007 (Mar 17, 2004)

Mine was replaced twice, not repaired. The first one was replaced with the same frame but the junction on the second replacement looks so much better. I’m not anticipating any further issues. I just did a 5 day stage race on it in some of the gnarliest rockiest terrain in PA and it survived.


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## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

one incredible donkey said:


> I've been ghosted by Vassago after requesting a bike build and making progress. During the last week in April we were discussing the process and I was really excited to get a new bike. Tom was super communicative all through that week in April. Then May came. No replies. Now June is rolling through. No replies.
> 
> It's frustrating because I really wanted another Vassago but this is making it tough to be a fan. It makes me really nervous in case i experience issues with a new frame. Will they answer then?


If you were looking at the Radimus I got the last one from the last batch around the last week of April timeframe think next batch is soon like July.


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## one incredible donkey (Jul 19, 2007)

socal_jack said:


> If you were looking at the Radimus I got the last one from the last batch around the last week of April timeframe think next batch is soon like July.


Thanks, but I'm after a Verhauen.


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## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

Got the Radimus fork and frame from Tom in late April, took awhile to gather parts, biggest delay was Onyx hubs for wheelset from Nobl about 3 months. Go t to admit was looking at RSD Middlechild but they kept pushing delivery out(still are last I checked) and this was available immediately. Having said that very pleased with the bike, ride quality and handling are pretty awesome. My steel bikes are likely headed for Offerup/Craigslist.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

It's been too long since people have posted their bikes. I am looking at getting a 21 Optimus and am excited to see more bikes.


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## kgraham11 (Jan 29, 2005)

jonshonda said:


> It's been too long since people have posted their bikes. I am looking at getting a 21 Optimus and am excited to see more bikes.


Checkout the Vassago facebook group, too. Vassago Owners Club | Facebook


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## Bluebeat007 (Mar 17, 2004)

I’m still on my Radimus.


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

JabberWocky still going strong.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

If I put gears on my Optimus will I be chastised?


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## Bluebeat007 (Mar 17, 2004)

Yes


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

jonshonda said:


> If I put gears on my Optimus will I be chastised?


Maybe so, but by who, and will that matter to you? I used to switch my Kona Raijin back and forth between SS and gears, and it was fun to mix things up. My Optimus has been SS since I’ve had it, but I may switch it up at some point.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Bluebeat007 said:


> Yes


I knew it!



So Cal RX said:


> Maybe so, but by who, and will that matter to you? I used to switch my Kona Raijin back and forth between SS and gears, and it was fun to mix things up. My Optimus has been SS since I’ve had it, but I may switch it up at some point.


All the hipsters at the pump track! I am thinking about putting a 100mm Fox 36 on there as well to really get them going!


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

I cut the derailleur hanger off and squashed any internal conflict permanently.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

kustomz said:


> I cut my derailleur hanger off and squashed my internal conflict permanently.


Right?!

Build the rear wheel with a Paul Boost SS hub... freewheels only! Fully commit and get after it!


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## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

jonshonda said:


> If I put gears on my Optimus will I be chastised?


Worse, you will be judged


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

socal_jack said:


> Worse, you will be judged


Meh, I'm a trail builder.....I'm used to judgement from people who's opinion don't matter to me! My Sram 12 speed is slated for delivery today!


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## Bluebeat007 (Mar 17, 2004)

BTW…I’m totally kidding.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Bluebeat007 said:


> BTW…I’m totally kidding.


haha I had figured that my post was meant to receive smart ass remarks, so I don't take them seriously. There are very few single speeders around us, and the amount of people who will actually know what a vassago is might be fewer then the number of single speeders. So on a local level, there will be little to no harrasment.....it will be on MTBR where the trouble begins!


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## Bluebeat007 (Mar 17, 2004)

Don’t get me wrong, you will be SShuned.


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## So Cal RX (Oct 1, 2005)

To me it was almost like getting a new bike every time I switched between gears and SS. Have fun!


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I think I’m done.
I look at my OpTi and can finally say ‘I wouldn’t change a thing’.








The build list:
2020 Optimus Ti frame
Works Components -2° angleset
Fox float 36 performance elite 140mm travel
Funn equalizer 50mm stem
ENVE M6 carbon bars
Hayes Dominion A2 brakes (180f/160r)
PNW loam grips
WeAreOne Union rims
Industry Nine Hydra hubs
OneUp 210mm dropper (and lever)
Ergon saddle w/ Ti rails
Blackspire 32t oval ring
Endless Cog
RaceFace Aeffect cranks 175mm
XT spd pedals

the cranks aren’t blingy, but I like them. Maybe someday I’ll splash out for some eewings or 5Dev cranks, but I don’t feel like the RFs are ‘lacking’. AZ is super hard on cranks. Maybe it’s me, but carbon is a bad idea here.
I could swap the GRIP damper for a GRIP2, but I don’t think that’s necessary. This one works really well.

This is definitely the highest quality build of any bike I’ve ever owned. It’s absolutely perfect in my eyes.

Edit: no, I haven’t weighed it.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I've got a 2021 XL Optimus Ti for sale if anyone is interested. White industries, Paul, XX1, XO1. Really nice build. 

PM me with interest.


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