# Carbon vs Aluminium Frame?



## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Im sure the topic has been covered, but rather than cover the pros and cons of each Im looking to get feedback from users of both, or any stories be it good or bad. 

Anyone make a carbon purchase and end up with a broken frame and wish they had gone Alum?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Ace5high said:


> Im sure the topic has been covered, but rather than cover the pros and cons of each Im looking to get feedback from users of both, or any stories be it good or bad.
> 
> Anyone make a carbon purchase and end up with a broken frame and wish they had gone Alum?


Can't speak for carbon frame, but as far as carbon application goes for now on my bikes, I had no problem with thin china carbon headset spacers over 2 winters and more then 1 000 km. I'd like to get a carbon frame, but not for FR or DH application. AM riding to XC would be more appealing to me for the use of a carbon frame. Metal frames as never failed me, so I don't think carbon would if you are careful to periodically verify for dings and scuffs on the frame.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

It's hard to generalize carbon as a material. It's by far the most versatile material used for bicycle parts. How an engineer designs a part and how it's manufactured can make all the difference in the world. When it comes to carbon parts, stick with reputable companies and your safe.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

customfab said:


> It's hard to generalize carbon as a material. It's by far the most versatile material used for bicycle parts. How an engineer designs a part and how it's manufactured can make all the difference in the world. When it comes to carbon parts, stick with reputable companies and your safe.


If I see carbon parts as being constructed with fibers and metal ones as a solid uniform construction (generalizing a lot here), would it be right to say carbon will never fail unless the fibers themselves are damaged and that metal parts will fatigue over time due to their unibody construction ? Speaking on a general notion of CF and metal parts here.

I practice bow shooting and my alloy arrows are stronger to resist impact, but will fatigue quicker then the carbon one every time you bend it or twist it. But the carbon ones might easily split under impact because the only thing keeping the material together is the carbon housing, a bit like derailleur housing. So carbon primary weakness is his crush resistance.

And unless you crash your frame or parts, the part/frame should not fail under normal use IMO.

So if you buy from a good manufacturer who provide a few (or several) years of warranty or a lifetime warranty, you should be good. Beware of short term warranty and if the (for example, handlebars) have a sticker "not for competition or off-road use'... Carbon cannot be repaired. So the warranty can come handy.

David


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

David C said:


> Carbon cannot be repaired.
> David


There are actually several companies that repair carbon and their results look pretty good. How they hold up? Only time and a brave person could tell...


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## saxen (Jun 15, 2009)

Carbon can be repaired- and if done right it's as strong if not stronger than stock-


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

saxen said:


> Carbon can be repaired- and if done right it's as strong if not stronger than stock-


If the frame is damaged in an internal way, like let's say your seat tube have been crush for some reason, could it get repaired if it's not really a crack, but a crush of the whole fibers ?

I know most carbon frame will have metal supports into the tubings, like in the seat tube, to help withstand torsion of the crankset torque when pedaling, but that's all I know so far.

Myself I wouldn't be worry riding any carbon parts or frame since I'm fairly light and don't tend to beat up my bikes carelessly. Bad luck can happen to anyone thought.

Btw, how you did on your lbs project Saxen ?


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks guys, reason I ask is because Im sure like many others im considering if I would like to make a switch to Carbon frame. Ive never had an issue running carbon Handle Bars but to me a Frame is a lot different just given the fact that If it gives up Im much more likely to get seriously injured on a faulty frame.

Im kicking around the idea of a Tallboy build, but want to be about to ride the same rock gardens and Red trails I like to ride now without fear of ruining a $2500 frame...


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

Ace5high said:


> Thanks guys, reason I ask is because Im sure like many others im considering if I would like to make a switch to Carbon frame. Ive never had an issue running carbon Handle Bars but to me a Frame is a lot different just given the fact that If it gives up Im much more likely to get seriously injured on a faulty frame.
> 
> Im kicking around the idea of a Tallboy build, but want to be about to ride the same rock gardens and Red trails I like to ride now without fear of ruining a $2500 frame...


If a handlebar breaks your headed to the doctor. But most of the time when frames break it's predictable and is rarely catastrophic. Search for the pictures of carbon frame failures and you will see they are mostly small cracks, not the head tube sheering off.

Like I said before as long as you stay with reputable companies your fine.


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

See rule #12

SURLY BIKES MILWAUKEE - If you think your bike looks good, it does. If...


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## Bernhardt (Mar 25, 2006)

I own both. Fatigue is an issue with all materials depending on how hard they're pushed. Material build wise, think of carbon as a bunch of strings held together by glue. The advantage is that you(as a design engineer) can control the direction of the strings, and number in every direction, and thus the strength and feel of the final product. Lots of room for performance, and lots of room to totally screw up. 

As to the ride quality, the Al is a littler harsher if you will. It transmits the small bumps and vibrations better than CF(in general). Depending on what you ride and/or like that tranmission can be good or bad.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Just the fact that no one has chimed in with a Carbon Frame Breakage story yet says something...

At first I thought guys missed me saying I wasn't wanting to discuss the differences, then I realized Its probably that maybe there are not a lot of failure stories, thank Goodness


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## PerfectZero (Jul 22, 2010)

As of now my carbon Tallboy frame is proving to be far more durable than my body :thumbsup:


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## ecub (Sep 3, 2011)

I LOVE my carbon bikes. I'm wishing my fatbike was carbon as well, because it's a heavy SOB.


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## Slowup (Dec 16, 2009)

I've taken chunks out of my carbon Altitude frame with no structural issues supposedly. Also supposedly all repairable but I have yet to explore that.

I ended up going back to an alloy frame partially because I do prefer the ride of an aluminum frame - it just feels more connected to the terrain for some reason - but I also didn't like cringing everytime a rock jumped up and smacked the down tube or bb area.

Funny though I've been running carbon cranks and suspension pieces without the same concern and I will be entertaining some carbon wheels in the future. No carbon handle bars though, I still prefer the more robust feel of aluminum.

Interesting comparison!


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Ace5high said:


> Just the fact that no one has chimed in with a Carbon Frame Breakage story yet says something...
> 
> At first I thought guys missed me saying I wasn't wanting to discuss the differences, then I realized Its probably that maybe there are not a lot of failure stories, thank Goodness


There are plenty of stories of failure, just not in this thread.


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## Bob12676 (Sep 10, 2008)

I own/ride both and test rode a aluminum and carbon versions of the same bikes (when they are available in both forms) before buying. I've not had any problems with either. IMO carbon is a better choice for a hardtail for the extra bit of compliance. On the other hand, when I rode FS frames I really thought aluminum felt better. I can't explain it, maybe it has something to do with the frame being less compliant and the suspension doing more of the moving, maybe it's just my perception??? FWIW, I rode a Tallboy for a day and it was soo nice, I wish I could have come up with the x-tra $ to buy one.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

David C said:


> If the frame is damaged in an internal way, like let's say your seat tube have been crush for some reason, could it get repaired if it's not really a crack, but a crush of the whole fibers ?
> 
> I know most carbon frame will have metal supports into the tubings, like in the seat tube, to help withstand torsion of the crankset torque when pedaling, but that's all I know so far.
> 
> ...


Many of the carbon repair shops can replace an entire tube if needed. So in your crushed tube situation they would just cut out the entire damaged area and replace it with a new pre made tube then reinforce the splice. It would in theory be stronger than before but heavier and stiffer which isn't always a good thing.

There are also many carbon frames on the road side (and probably some MTB hardtails) that have zero metal molded into them. The headset cups and BB bearings press into net molded sockets.


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

From what I've seen on these carbon vs. alloy frame threads is that people who own carbon bikes love them, and people who has never owned a carbon bike thinks they will disintegrate by riding it off a 5 inch curb. 

Like most, when I first got the bike built I was babying it because I too thought it would crack in half if I ran over a rock. But after several months of hard AM poundage the frame is holding up great. The only thing I haven't done with the bike yet is ride it off a cliff.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Will Goes Boing said:


> From what I've seen on these carbon vs. alloy frame threads is that people who own carbon bikes love them, and people who has never owned a carbon bike thinks they will disintegrate by riding it off a 5 inch curb.
> 
> Like most, when I first got the bike built I was babying it because I too thought it would crack in half if I ran over a rock. But after several months of hard AM poundage the frame is holding up great. The only thing I haven't done with the bike yet is ride it off a cliff.


Good input! What are you riding?


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

The only difference I really felt is that with the FS bikes I can actually stay seated on some sections whereas on the HT I cannot sit down AT ALL even if it's just slightly bumpy on the downhills.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

I guess something to think about is that they make high end parts for jets out of CF so I wonder why some think a CF frame would break into pieces.


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## msimmons (Jun 14, 2007)

Anything can fail. I have beating up an ibis mojo SL now for about 9 mo. I have had a few crashes in the rocks and the frame is fine. I am 200 lbs and ride pretty hard, good to go so far.

When I was in the Navy I was an inspector on the F/A-18 and there was a spec in the manual that gave a tolerance for carbon delamination. The trailing edge of the carbon fiber elevators was always separating from the buffeting at speed. If a problem was detected it was repairable. As I recall the delamination had to be pretty bad to ground the A/C. It was a long time ago (1986-1990) so I can't rememeber the details, but I do remember signing off on some things and thinking "the manual says it is OK so it must be good, I really hope this thing stays together".


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## wookie (Jan 24, 2007)

I was an A-10 & F-16 mechanic for 14 years. Most of your composites (but not all ) are laminated to aluminum.


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## Genshammer (Jun 30, 2006)

*Repair*

Don't be afraid of carbon fiber. When engineered and designed correctly, it will hold up to as much or more abuse than any aluminum, steel or ti frame. And what makes carbn fiber better is that it's 100% repairable. Problem is (especially with road bikes), manufacturers always play the "who's got the lighter frame?" game. That ends up spelling trouble, leading some bikes to be brittle and vulnerable to impact.

We've repaired several MTB frames, and some of them like the Rocky Mountain Altitude and all Ibis frames are BURLY thick. You really got to try hard to damage frames like that. I've been beating the snot out of my Ibis Tranny for two years now, running it into rocks and crashing down a few boulder strewn ravines, and it hasn't so much as flinched.

A previous poster mentioned repair shops replace entire tubes - that's pretty much unheard of with the exception of Parlee (because they use lugged joints and do all their own repairs). Replacing an entire tube would be so expensive to do that you're better off just getting a new frame...unless its a bike like a Parlee which costs big $$$.

On our repairs we typically cut out the entire damaged area, bevel the remainder, foam fill the tube, shape, then vacuum bag repair plies and sand the entire tube perfectly smooth and transition free. How does it hold up?

Right now we're in the midst of load testing a carbon Serotta road bike frame that we repaired on the downtube near the head tube. This is a repair that we don't typically do, because failure at that junction can potentially cause the whole frame to break in half. But we figured for testing purposes, if our repair can hold up there, it can hold up anywhere on the frame.

Our testing machine has a ram on the end of the front fork, pushing and pulling from rest with 135 psi load. So far we've made it to 50,000 cycles and its still going.

So there you have it - frames can be repaired safely and reliably.

Check out the link below to our website or FB page for examples of our repair work.

Sincerely,


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

PerfectZero said:


> As of now my carbon Tallboy frame is proving to be far more durable than my body :thumbsup:


Amen to that.

See sig below.


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

i want an ibis mojo. they are just a little too long for me, even size small. i know i'm not growing any taller, and i already run a short stem. oh well. i was actually worrying that i would hurt a carbon frame. not because i ride hard, (i dont weigh much and i dont beat bikes) but since i'm sloppy on rocks, i assumed i'd drop the bike the wrong way and invisibly ding it. Its all about side impact, right?


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## dcubed (Jun 30, 2010)

Nicole,

The magic to carbon fiber is its strength/weight ratio. It is designed for strength/rigidity in a given direction to minimize weight. Unfortunately, the carbon is thin (for light weight) and the plastic around the fiber is relatively brittle. So, as you noted, loads applied against the direction of strength (side), especially with a quick shot (impact), produce failures. That is why I opted not to ride a CF mtn bike in New England. It is only a matter of time before the frame impacts a rock in a less-than-optimum direction.


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

i live in New England too, so you know how it is. 
really though, how much weight savings in a frame between a nice lightweight aluminum FS, vs carbon? just wondering how worth it it would really be. Price wise, and considering that a bad hit would make you have to potentially trash your frame.


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

NicoleB28 said:


> i live in New England too, so you know how it is.
> really though, how much weight savings in a frame between a nice lightweight aluminum FS, vs carbon? just wondering how worth it it would really be. Price wise, and considering that a bad hit would make you have to potentially trash your frame.


That's also a big misconception about carbon frames, is that once you crash it and the frame cracks or breaks, it's trash.

There are actually a lot of companies out there who specializes in repairing carbon frames, and considering what they do (X-ray, repair, reinforcing it better than stock, and complete new clear coat) you can have a frame even better than when you first bought it.

When an aluminum frame cracks, you can't exactly weld it back together, it really is trash at that point. Quite the contrary to popular belief.


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

so its a myth that a hard side impact to carbon is no worse than aluminum? from what i've heard, a bad ding in carbon can be hard to see. i'm not saying carbon is the devil, but i hear so many opposite arguments that i'll never know the answer.


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

NicoleB28 said:


> so its a myth that a hard side impact to carbon is no worse than aluminum? from what i've heard, a bad ding in carbon can be hard to see. i'm not saying carbon is the devil, but i hear so many opposite arguments that i'll never know the answer.


Carbon doesn't take impact well at all compared to aluminum, so for people who crashes a lot it might be better to stick with aluminum. But in terms of strength under normal riding from what I know carbon is definitely superior.

In regards to not being able to see damage in a carbon frame, that's also true. That's why the companies who does repair for carbon frames take X-rays.


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## dcubed (Jun 30, 2010)

Mr. Genshammer makes some very good points. However, I would rather not have to repair a frame that has been damaged. I rode a steel bike with high-end triple-butted tubing for ten years and, in one spectacular crash, dented the top tube. I raced it for years afterward with no ill effects.

For what it's worth, I started with steel (hardtail), went to Al (FS) and now I am on a Ti 29er hardtail. I went so far as to buy a CF FS frame, but I couldn't pull the trigger to build it and put it on the trails.

Also, not all CF is created equal. In fact, some (like Trek) might say that the engineering required to produce a light and strong CF frame is more complex than that required for steel, Al or Ti. So, if you do opt for a CF frame, do your research and know the warranty policy.

CF may be right for you, it's not for me at this point in time. Have fun with the frame selection journey.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Will Goes Boing said:


> Carbon doesn't take impact well at all compared to aluminum
> 
> In regards to not being able to see damage in a carbon frame, that's also true.


Now you made it to 2X 100% misinformation.

Time to put a cork in it

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

NicoleB28 said:


> so its a myth that a hard side impact to carbon is no worse than aluminum? from what i've heard, a bad ding in carbon can be hard to see. i'm not saying carbon is the devil, but i hear so many opposite arguments that i'll never know the answer.


Try take a look at the thread, named something along the lines of "carbon concerns".

I and a couple of others explained this quite extensively there, and debunked a whole lot of hearsay.

Magura


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

i asked earlier, what is the weight difference in the frame? vs a decent 3000 dollar aluminum bike, and a carbon one? My concerns might be dumb, since i'm 115 pounds and only ride rocky XC (not AM) so i probably wont hurt a carbon frame, but since i'm a bit "green" i've been known to slop-out and drop the bike on rocks.

honestly, i'm happy if i can have something around 26 pounds (which i can get with a non-carbon bike).


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

NicoleB28 said:


> i asked earlier, what is the weight difference in the frame? vs a decent 3000 dollar aluminum bike, and a carbon one? My concerns might be dumb, since i'm 115 pounds and only ride rocky XC (not AM) so i probably wont hurt a carbon frame, but since i'm a bit "green" i've been known to slop-out and drop the bike on rocks.
> 
> honestly, i'm happy if i can have something around 26 pounds (which i can get with a non-carbon bike).


Well, if 26Lbs is your target (I assume we are talking HT?), you can pick whatever you please. A carbon frame that is made reasonably well, is sure lighter. How much? That depends what kind of aluminum frame you compare to. 
What you can get in a carbon frame, is a frame that is rigid in the right directions, and comfy where that is needed. That is somewhat hard to get in a metal frame.

Having said that, you are most likely too light to feel much of a difference in ride compliance.
In your place, I'd get myself a super light aluminum frame, and call it a day.

Then blow the 1000$ you saved on the frame, on a nice holiday.

The only alternative I can see to that, would be to get a custom made steel or titanium frame (or make your own carbon frame, it's not as hard as it seems).

Magura


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

No matter what the material, when you push the limits of lightweight design, you will have occasional failures. 

You could make a very durable bike out of carbon fiber, but it would weigh a little more than one of the high end race bikes.


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## El Train (Apr 21, 2007)

I bought a carbon Blur xc last year, and I am nervous putting it in the back of my truck with other bikes. I just worry about the longevity. I could throw my aluminum Heckler into the truck with a pile of other bikes and not worry about anything except scratched paint. I worry about big rocks crushing a tube, etc. I think I will go back to metal frames after this one. I don't like worrying about it, regardless of how good it rides....and it is the best riding bike I have ever ridden!


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

El Train said:


> I bought a carbon Blur xc last year, and I am nervous putting it in the back of my truck with other bikes. I just worry about the longevity. I could throw my aluminum Heckler into the truck with a pile of other bikes and not worry about anything except scratched paint. I worry about big rocks crushing a tube, etc. I think I will go back to metal frames after this one. I don't like worrying about it, regardless of how good it rides....and it is the best riding bike I have ever ridden!


You worry for no reason. The reality is the other way around 

I make composite protectors for my metal frames, as they get dinged if you look at them wrong.

The only frame I have, that causes me no worries in that regard, is my Fireeye Shortfuse. A DJ 4130 frame, weighing in on the wrong side of 6 lbs.

Magura


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

El Train said:


> I bought a carbon Blur xc last year, and I am nervous putting it in the back of my truck with other bikes. I just worry about the longevity. I could throw my aluminum Heckler into the truck with a pile of other bikes and not worry about anything except scratched paint. I worry about big rocks crushing a tube, etc. I think I will go back to metal frames after this one. I don't like worrying about it, regardless of how good it rides....and it is the best riding bike I have ever ridden!


Would not worry too much about it. My Tallboy ended up at the bottom of a 9 bike pile in the back do the truck, leaning up against my tie-down cleat about halfway down the downtube for a 45 min. drive. Not even a scratch.


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

Mr.Magura said:


> Now you made it to 2X 100% misinformation.
> 
> Time to put a cork in it
> 
> Magura


Ok...

(Walks away quietly)


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

NicoleB28 said:


> i asked earlier, what is the weight difference in the frame? vs a decent 3000 dollar aluminum bike, and a carbon one? My concerns might be dumb, since i'm 115 pounds and only ride rocky XC (not AM) so i probably wont hurt a carbon frame, but since i'm a bit "green" i've been known to slop-out and drop the bike on rocks.
> 
> honestly, i'm happy if i can have something around 26 pounds (which i can get with a non-carbon bike).


Weight Isnt the only thing to consider (as far as Im concerned anyway). I dont own a CF yet and my Al frame thats used for trail riding is more than satisfactory light. One of the reasons Im looking at CF is because Ive heard they can be stiffer than a similar aluminum frame. Im sure the particular frame matters but lets assume we are talking about high end one...

Im pretty sure Ill be building a Tallboy this winter for next season, Im hoping its more ridged than my aluminum frame as well as lighter


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

Ace5high said:


> Weight Isnt the only thing to consider (as far as Im concerned anyway). I dont own a CF yet and my Al frame thats used for trail riding is more than satisfactory light. One of the reasons Im looking at CF is because Ive heard they can be stiffer than a similar aluminum frame. Im sure the particular frame matters but lets assume we are talking about high end one...
> 
> Im pretty sure Ill be building a Tallboy this winter for next season, Im hoping its more ridged than my aluminum frame as well as lighter


It depends how the carbon layers are oriented towards each other. The carbon fork on my road bike is plenty flexible, but strong. It flexes in the fore/aft positions -- this allows it to flex over road obstacles, making for a more comfortable ride. The seat stays on a carbon frame will be the same. However, the front triangle/chainstays of a frame will be made a lot stiffer, n order to improve efficiency.


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## KVW (Aug 11, 2011)

Interesting. I never knew CF bike components could be repaired. So seeing the info above, it would seem as though if you plan to go CF, you'd best not go cheap and actually go with a manufacture that actually does the R&D and crash testing. However if you did go cheap (like for example a really affordable sette frame), it's probably cheaper just to buy another than it is to send it in for repairs. 

It's really disappointing those video demonstrations don't have a follow up x-ray examination - I mean why not show it? ... unless it's not something they want to show...


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## wreckedrex (May 2, 2007)

My carbon fuji road frame failed at the seat post binder, most likely it was over torqued. Nothing dramatic, just noticed the crack one day and scrapped the frame when further inspection showed how far it had propagated.

My main ride is a blur ltc. I've put an embarassingly small number of miles on it, but so far so good. I'm not at all worried about it, the bike is a bloody tank. The example I demo'd before buying had been hucked several orders of magnitude higher and farther than I'm capable of by one of the shop guys. It was flawless.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

wreckedrex said:


> My carbon fuji road frame failed at the seat post binder, most likely it was over torqued. Nothing dramatic, just noticed the crack one day and scrapped the frame when further inspection showed how far it had propagated.
> 
> My main ride is a blur ltc. I've put an embarassingly small number of miles on it, but so far so good. I'm not at all worried about it, the bike is a bloody tank. The example I demo'd before buying had been hucked several orders of magnitude higher and farther than I'm capable of by one of the shop guys. It was flawless.


Most failures I read about deal with carbon road frames where weight is everything, Cant help but assume that reputable manufacturers like Santa Cruz are taking extra precautions to build "tough trail" carbon frames... Food for thought


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## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4oXYDQ&usg=AFQjCNFT-8g8v5qLzcvxdnA8rUIk1dPSkA


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Quick story;

My 2010 Scott CR1 carbon road bike was blown off the back of my car in a storm in the middle of Nevada. Apparently the front took the brunt of the hit. Front wheel destroyed, shifters torn up and the front fork was broken. Lots of little damage to other parts and the frame showed signs of scuffing but otherwise OK.

Insurance replaced the bike completely. It was my intent to make a quick video of myself beating the frame to death with a hammer just to see how much it could take.

My friend rescued the frame, built it up with a new carbon fork and assorted parts and has been happily riding it for just over a year now. (I had wished him luck, warned him firmly and absolved myself of all guilt if it failed).

Apparently carbon takes more abuse than I thought. Even the lightweight stuff.


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## heyyall (Nov 10, 2011)

floydlippencott said:


> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4oXYDQ&usg=AFQjCNFT-8g8v5qLzcvxdnA8rUIk1dPSkA


Some of the pictures are quite alarming but what is more alarming is that a lot of the photos were from 30mph+ collisions with cars. I'm not sure any bike would withstand such a violent accident. Sure the frames broke, but at those speeds, cars that crash are also totaled.

My experience:
Steel fully rigid: Seems bullet proof except that there is enough frame flex I can make the chain skip. When I've crashed on it, I have never felt the need to look for frame damage (but I really should have).

Aluminum road bike with carbon fork: I think I have one of a few million of these bikes on the road. I've never really crashed this bike but when I ride on the trainer, I see a lot of flex in the bottom bracket. I do worry it is getting weaker somewhere. It's not exactly butter soft on the road either.

Carbon FS MTB: Yes, there is that little voice in the back of my head that is gearing up to say "I told you so" if I break the frame. I hope I never do. I've crashed twice on the bike but these weren't really anything to write home about (no 30mph into a car or a peleton pile up). Unlike the steel frame, I look it over closely and I do breathe a sigh of relief when I don't find anything wrong.


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## dcubed (Jun 30, 2010)

@Nicole,

At your size and body weight, and considering the fact that you don't race downhill, you are in the enviable position of not placing large loads on your frame. Also, because your bike's frame will be small, the tubes will be stronger than corresponding bigger frames, all other aspects being equal. The bottom line is that you can get a lighter frame easier than larger people can.

Your decision for frame material might depend significantly on your decision on whether you will be riding a FS or HT. Based on your previous posts, I assume FS.

If so, then you can maximize rigidity in the frame members since compliance will come in the suspension. If you want a HT, then you might want to consider frame material (and geometry) to provide some compliance, in appropriate places and directions, of course.

With a small-framed FS bike, Al will provide a relatively inexpensive and light bike. CF will probably buy you reduced weight, depending on manufacturer, and probably a bit less harshness in the ride. However, I would bet that the 'feel' of FS bike would be dominated by the suspension design (VPP, etc) and geometry (angles, etc) and NOT the frame material. 

I would place my emphasis on suspension design and geometry (feel and fit), and secondarily on frame material.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Good things to consider for myself to also :thumbsup:

My decision leaning toward carbon is mainly due to #1 FS Bike #2 I dont do hardcore AM or DH riding #3 At my largest Im prob only 185lbs #4 I rarely crash (fingers crossed)


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Just out of curiosity, what would be the average weight of a FS carbon frame including rear air shock ? Think about a 150mm travel AM bike with something like a Fox Float or RP23.

Because so far I'm aware of similar metal frame tipping the scale just a few grams over 5 pounds... Let's talk about a medium sized frame btw. 17-18".


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## sopwithcamel (Oct 2, 2007)

Ace5high said:


> Good things to consider for myself to also :thumbsup:
> 
> My decision leaning toward carbon is mainly due to #1 FS Bike #2 I dont do hardcore AM or DH riding #3 At my largest Im prob only 185lbs #4 I rarely crash (fingers crossed)


One of the most important things to consider when buying a carbon fiber bike is whether or not the company has a reputable engineering department and bicycle test lab. If a bicycle company doesn't have that then they are using there customers as test dummies! Not good!

The other is a no fault replacement policy. Santa Cruz has both! Good choice!



> *Santa Cruz No-Fault Replacement*
> Santa Cruz Bicycles will make replacement parts available to the original owner at a minimal charge in the event of a crash or other non-warranty situation for the life of the bike.


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

David C said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would be the average weight of a FS carbon frame including rear air shock ? Think about a 150mm travel AM bike with something like a Fox Float or RP23.
> 
> Because so far I'm aware of similar metal frame tipping the scale just a few grams over 5 pounds... Let's talk about a medium sized frame btw. 17-18".


I would tell you, but Mr. Magura would verbal judo my arse. Due to my extreme lack of knowledge in carbon fiber bike frames, I will refrain from making further comments in an attempt to not spread misinformation. Thank you, that is all. :thumbsup:


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

I ride large frames and the difference in
weight between al and carbon is usually
between 1/2 to 1 pound.

Best, John


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

David C said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would be the average weight of a FS carbon frame including rear air shock ? Think about a 150mm travel AM bike with something like a Fox Float or RP23.
> 
> Because so far I'm aware of similar metal frame tipping the scale just a few grams over 5 pounds... Let's talk about a medium sized frame btw. 17-18".


My Blur medium frame with shock weighed 4.7 lbs.










Just under 25lbs fully built with dropper post.










Santa Cruz says their carbon frames are stronger and stiffer than their aluminum counter parts.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

John Kuhl said:


> I ride large frames and the difference in
> weight between al and carbon is usually
> between 1/2 to 1 pound.
> 
> Best, John


While I'm sure you're right about the weight difference, it is like comparing apples to oranges.

To make a real comparison, it is necessary to measure the stiffness of the frames in question, and divide the stiffness figure by the weight figure.

I think the German Bike magazine did such a test a while back, can't recall which issue though.

Any comparison beyond weight VS. stiffness, doesn't make much sense, as you can have a carbon noodle, an aluminum tank, and the opposite way around as well.

Magura


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Will Goes Boing said:


> I would tell you, but Mr. Magura would verbal judo my arse. Due to my extreme lack of knowledge in carbon fiber bike frames, I will refrain from making further comments in an attempt to not spread misinformation. Thank you, that is all. :thumbsup:


Hey Will, come on, no reason to turn into a lemon.

What I wrote earlier in this thread, regarding misinformation, was written with a smile, I kinda hoped it would shine through. 

Magura


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

[No message]


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

Mr.Magura said:


> Hey Will, come on, no reason to turn into a lemon.
> 
> What I wrote earlier in this thread, regarding misinformation, was written with a smile, I kinda hoped it would shine through.
> 
> Magura


I know Mr. Magura, hence the obvious sarcasm. I was pretty much just parroting what the LBS guys have been telling me and what I've been reading online, but of course we all know that information passed on from one person to another can be misconstrued from time to time. If I'm wrong I certainly want someone to point it out, so no offense taken.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Will Goes Boing said:


> I know Mr. Magura, hence the obvious sarcasm. I was pretty much just parroting what the LBS guys have been telling me and what I've been reading online, but of course we all know that information passed on from one person to another can be misconstrued from time to time. If I'm wrong I certainly want someone to point it out, so no offense taken.


Cool.

Obviously I'm not all that good at picking up the stuff between the lines 

Magura


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

I had an aluminum frame crack....
All my carbon bars have been great.


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## Ram4.0 (Jan 14, 2012)

Carbon! Sorry I've got a thing for it


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Ram4.0 said:


> Carbon! Sorry I've got a thing for it


We wont tell your wife...


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Obviously this guy seems to know better...

Maybe I know nothing, maybe not. But you arse hole with 30 rep power, should come post to this thread and entertain us with your carbon experience, off course if you have any experience with carbon.
Just lurking around threads, neg reping people telling them they don't know anything and not even mind to post your opinion is just F A G. I hope you're not one of the great MTBR members, because this is really not to your advantage. /rant


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

David C said:


> Obviously this guy seems to know better...
> 
> Maybe I know nothing, maybe not. But you arse hole with 30 rep power, should come post to this thread and entertain us with your carbon experience, off course if you have any experience with carbon.
> Just lurking around threads, neg reping people telling them they don't know anything and not even mind to post your opinion is just F A G. I hope you're not one of the great MTBR members, because this is really not to your advantage. /rant


The usual story.

Somebody whom can't be bothered to discuss his point of view, or is unable to defend it.

It's gonna be fun when rep is no longer anonymous, like on RBR.

Some will see a massive amount of negative attitude coming their way 

Magura


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## wookie (Jan 24, 2007)

Rep is ghey.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

mestapho said:


> My Blur medium frame with shock weighed 4.7 lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yesterday I was down in Burlington and made a stop at a nice LBS (Skirack) and they had the Blur Tr in large (19"). That thing was sweet, and even if I'm only a bit over 5'6", I could fit over it just enough to ride it around the shop (they had a big showroom). I really liked the color of the frame and the matte finish. But their frames geo are so compact I thought that frame was a medium in 18"... Funny. I would like to see how much the bright green color would fade after several years riding in sunlight.


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

David C said:


> Yesterday I was down in Burlington and made a stop at a nice LBS (Skirack) and they had the Blur Tr in large (19"). That thing was sweet, and even if I'm only a bit over 5'6", I could fit over it just enough to ride it around the shop (they had a big showroom). I really liked the color of the frame and the matte finish. But their frames geo are so compact I thought that frame was a medium in 18"... Funny. I would like to see how much the bright green color would fade after several years riding in sunlight.


The carbon will melt and disintegrate well before the color starts to wear.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

erik1245 said:


> The carbon will melt and disintegrate well before the color starts to wear.


So the carbon won't last long if exposed to sunlight ? 

I'd better let the frame inside and only ride at night then... Geez, those frame are so expensive I don't want to waste it on nice sunny rides...


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

David C said:


> So the carbon won't last long if exposed to sunlight ?
> 
> I'd better let the frame inside and only ride at night then... Geez, those frame are so expensive I don't want to waste it on nice sunny rides...


No worries.

A carbon frame will explode for no obvious reason, long before it melts and disintegrates.

Magura


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## turbogrover (Dec 4, 2005)

Mr.Magura said:


> No worries.
> 
> A carbon frame will explode for no obvious reason, long before it melts and disintegrates.
> 
> Magura


LOL, That's what I was gonna say! :thumbsup:


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## turbogrover (Dec 4, 2005)

Ace5high said:


> Most failures I read about deal with carbon road frames where weight is everything, Cant help but assume that reputable manufacturers like Santa Cruz are taking extra precautions to build "tough trail" carbon frames... Food for thought


This is where all the general misconceptions about carbon fiber come from. I've built and tested race car components made from carbon fiber, steel, and aluminum, and the carbon parts were always stronger, so we continued to make them lighter, until they were no longer stronger than the steel or aluminum parts, to find out just how much weight savings we could get away with. In the end, the parts get made stronger where needed, and lighter where possible.

I see many bicycle companies do the same thing in the quest to make lighter and lighter frames. They can successfully make the frame extremely light, but the lighter the frame gets, the more susceptible it is to damage. That's just common sense. The problem with that, is some consumers are not going to be very careful with their superlight wonder bike, and it WILL break if it's abused beyond it's limits just like anything. Regardless of the material it's made from. When something like an exotic, lightweight carbon fiber racing frame can be sold to anyone who wants one, there are bound to be examples of frame breakage.

If you compare the strength of a 3.5 lb carbon fiber frame to a 3.5 lb steel or aluminum frame, you'll get a good idea of how strong a carbon frame can be. Unfortunately, when people shop for a carbon frame, part of the allure is the light weight, so the manufacturers, focus on making the carbon frames lighter to justify the cost of purchasing one.

I myself am now riding a 2.25 lb carbon frame. It works great as a XC bike, but I realize the limitations of riding such a lightweight frame. I don't intend to launch this bike over big jumps and drop offs. I CAN stand up and motor a bike like this up hills with as much force as possible, and know it'll take it, and that's where a bike like this can shine.

I've also seen example of carbon frame failures where the assembly was the cause of the failure. The lighter the frame gets, the more care has to be given in both initial assembly and use.

There are newer, lighter weight materials being tested right now. so in time, people will be worrying about the next new wonder frame, and this same argument will repeat. The bike industry gets trickle-down tech from other sources, because it's generally a consumer and recreational sport.
Carbon fiber is already old tech in motorsports, and the people that use it in motorsports, learned very quickly how to use it's advantages. It's use in a sport where the layman has the ability to purchase the most exotic race equipment, is where the misconceptions and wives tales come from. A weekend warrior like myself can purchase a 17 lb mtb off ebay and assemble it in his garage with no prior, or limited experience with carbon fiber.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

turbogrover said:


> This is where all the general misconceptions about carbon fiber come from. I've built and tested race car components made from carbon fiber, steel, and aluminum, and the carbon parts were always stronger, so we continued to make them lighter, until they were no longer stronger than the steel or aluminum parts, to find out just how much weight savings we could get away with. In the end, the parts get made stronger where needed, and lighter where possible.
> 
> I see many bicycle companies do the same thing in the quest to make lighter and lighter frames. They can successfully make the frame extremely light, but the lighter the frame gets, the more susceptible it is to damage. That's just common sense. The problem with that, is some consumers are not going to be very careful with their superlight wonder bike, and it WILL break if it's abused beyond it's limits just like anything. Regardless of the material it's made from. When something like an exotic, lightweight carbon fiber racing frame can be sold to anyone who wants one, there are bound to be examples of frame breakage.
> 
> ...


Too much reality for one day 

You could at least have sugar coated it, no?

Magura


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

OK so everything I was going to say in this thread has already been said.

So the question was "Carbon or Aluminum what is the difference?"

Money and material, what do I win?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> OK so everything I was going to say in this thread has already been said.
> 
> So the question was "Carbon or Aluminum what is the difference?"
> 
> Money and material, what do I win?


You win moar win.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

turbogrover said:


> This is where all the general misconceptions about carbon fiber come from. I've built and tested race car components made from carbon fiber, steel, and aluminum, and the carbon parts were always stronger, so we continued to make them lighter, until they were no longer stronger than the steel or aluminum parts, to find out just how much weight savings we could get away with. In the end, the parts get made stronger where needed, and lighter where possible.
> 
> I see many bicycle companies do the same thing in the quest to make lighter and lighter frames. They can successfully make the frame extremely light, but the lighter the frame gets, the more susceptible it is to damage. That's just common sense. The problem with that, is some consumers are not going to be very careful with their superlight wonder bike, and it WILL break if it's abused beyond it's limits just like anything. Regardless of the material it's made from. When something like an exotic, lightweight carbon fiber racing frame can be sold to anyone who wants one, there are bound to be examples of frame breakage.
> 
> ...


Started off saying it was a misconception, but then reiterated the same point I was making just in many, many more words :thumbsup:

One such example is the marine industry. We've been using it for decades


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

The first carbon fiber frame I ever saw was 
around 1973. It had round carbon tubes glued
into aluminum lugs. My job was to polish all
of the lugs. If I remember right the frame was
made by a outfit called Line Seeker. So carbon
frames have been around for a long time.

Best, John


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## turbogrover (Dec 4, 2005)

John Kuhl said:


> The first carbon fiber frame I ever saw was
> around 1973. It had round carbon tubes glued
> into aluminum lugs. My job was to polish all
> of the lugs. If I remember right the frame was
> ...


Wow, that is old!
I thought Graftek made the first one.


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## lucyfek (Feb 19, 2007)

I don't have carbon frames but I have an older cdale r300 with small dents in the top tube (bike slipped on the floor and ran against door hinges of the cabinet). No structural damage but I was not happy either (any attempts to conceal it backfired on me - I don't work at body shop).


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