# We need a better helmet for all mountain riding



## Jaybo (Mar 5, 2008)

While I enjoy the light feel of light mountain bike helmets, I am concerned the lack of face covering. The Switchblade sounded fragile. Do you think it is possible to build a full face helmet that doesn't turn your head into an oven or wear your neck out with weight? 

Jaybo


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## blackagness (Mar 1, 2005)

If we can put a an on the moon?



If I were to damage my face, I'll just die!


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

Jaybo, there have been some spirited discussions about this on this forum about this issue, and they are worth looking at further down the pages here. That said, here's the one I wear all the time for hours on end...even in the hot temps I live in.


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

I tried that Deviant for a few rides - it was HOT.

I actually snatched up an NOS Switchblade on ebay for $40. While it's definitely an improvement over my reg XC lid in terms of protection, I think something just a tad burlier would be ideal.

Ant


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

I gotta go with TNC here. The Deviant is the only true Full-face that has XC ventilation for gnarly rides. I have one, I don't use it for most of my "AM rides" but I do use it for those days I plan on climbing fire-roads to my DH chutes. I just strap it to my pack for the fire-road climbs and rock it on the DH sections. I also have used it for exploratory shuttle runs and it is bearable on short climbs in hot temps. It's not a standard helmet for sure but it is nice to have when the downhill gets gnarly but there is some climbing ahead. I'm shocked that Spesh has the market cornered on this particular full-face style. The switchblade does not even compare, I've handled one and seen a guy use one and I wouldn't put that thing on my head for a second.


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

Clutchman83 said:


> I don't use it for most of my "AM rides" but I do use it for those days I plan on climbing fire-roads to my DH chutes.


So, are you saying you use the Deviant as a DH helmet, but not as an AM helmet? (gotta love these labels)

I've worn a Deviant riding singletrack in 70 - 80 degree weather, and I was very uncomfortable.

If I were flying down a steep mountain at high speeds I wouldn't use the Switchblade (a proper DH helmet would be in order). But if I'm tackling a rocky, steep, technical section at a slower pace, and I mess up and face plant, it's nice to have the added face protection of the Switchblade.

Again, I would like something a bit burlier than the Switchblade but, for me, the Deviant is overkill. However, I don't ride DH chutes.

Ant


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## BanzaiRider (Jan 15, 2004)

Jaybo said:


> While I enjoy the light feel of light mountain bike helmets, I am concerned the lack of face covering. The Switchblade sounded fragile. Do you think it is possible to build a full face helmet that doesn't turn your head into an oven or wear your neck out with weight?
> 
> Jaybo


I think this is like car wipers Jaybo, the companies will never figure it out!  TNC and a few others are really sold on the Deviant. I just tried it in a store but the mouth guard doesn't feel ventilated enough for me to climb. I had a Switchblade for a year, now a Casco Viper, both are very light which is fine for AM but breathing with the mouth guard on is like breathing with a plastic bag over your head so I always have to take the mouth guard off. The only one I tried that does have the potential of having a mouth guard that you can leave on for climbing is the MET Parachute but when I tried one the fit was not good with my head and the mouth guard felt so flimsy that I don't think it really offers protection.

Basically what we need is a regular XC helmet with a MET Parachute like mouth guard that is both relatively strong and so ventilated that it feels like you don't have any.

If we keep talking about it maybe some day Giro, Fox, Spec or another will finally listen and give us something nice!


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## SpecialK (Feb 23, 2005)

*Full Face AM Helmet*

As far as I can tell, they just don't make a good AM helmet.

I have a Giro Switchblade and a Specialized Deviant. The Giro is nice and light but I am wary of the lack of real protection (plus they don't make them anymore). The Deviant is comfortable but if its over 70 degrees it gets really hot. Don't even think about wearing it in August.

Overall I would say I grab the Switchblade more often, especially for the XC side of AM. I had a bad ear injury two years ago so I am stuck with a full face for the rest of my riding days. Sadly, the Switchblade is the only helmet that protects my ears and face and feels even remotely like a standard bike helmet.

Anyway want to draft a group letter to the helmet companies demanding an AM lid?


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## BanzaiRider (Jan 15, 2004)

SpecialK said:


> Overall I would say I grab the Switchblade more often, especially for the XC side of AM. I had a bad ear injury two years ago so I am stuck with a full face for the rest of my riding days. Sadly, the Switchblade is the only helmet that protects my ears and face and feels even remotely like a standard bike helmet.


Try to get yourself a Casco Viper, I'm quite sure you will like it much more then the Switchblade and it definitely protects better while being as ventilated and lighter. I don't know if you saw some of the crashes with the Switchblade mouth guard cutting the face of the person but when I saw those I immediately ditched my Switchblade.


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## nufenstein (May 18, 2004)

wire guard, ala football/hockey helmets...super ventilated and when secured properly would have good impact resistance right?


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## SpecialK (Feb 23, 2005)

*Casco*

Is the Casco Viper available in the US or do I have to order one from Europe? I checked the prices on Chain Reaction Cycles and they are asking $200 US plus shipping. Ouch.

Though, as one of the guys in another forum put it, its cheaper than a trip to the dentist...

CK


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

BanzaiRider said:


> I don't know if you saw some of the crashes with the Switchblade mouth guard cutting the face of the person but when I saw those I immediately ditched my Switchblade.


Hmmm. That's a bit worrisome, actually. Do you have a link? I'm curious as to how it happened.

If industry insiders do poke their heads in these forums, maybe we should start a poll?

Ant


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

Antonio, did you remove the lower padding on the Deviant? It's designed to be removed, especially for trail riding. If one leaves the padding in, it's going to be hot. 

Banz, I still don't understand the part about the jaw piece being too restrictive and too close where it would affect breathing. I've had some motorcycle helmets that had this issue, but the Deviant has what I believe is an "almost" too long chin/jaw guard...and realize that I have a fairly large head. The Deviant is aggressively ventilated, relatively light, and lets air flow all around your head. In fact it flows enough air that on days when the temps are below 60, I use my Pryme Al...another "decently" ventilated helmet...because the Deviant flows about as much air an XC lid. Here are some pics of the Deviant. Look at the inside pics. With the appropriate padding removed...as allowed by its design...it looks very much like an XC cranial bucket and flows air very much like one. I've had some very good getoffs wearing a Deviant, and the helmet works. Those edges where the jaw and ear padding were removed are far enough away that even during a crash, it seems impossibe for them to touch or harm any part of your face or head. The pic of the three of us standing out at Bartlett Wash in Moab shows a side profile of me in the middle and a guy on the left with a Deviant and a guy on the right with a Giro Remedy. You can see the room between my big mouth and the chin guard, and you can see the difference in facial room between the two helmets the other guys are wearing...and trust me...all 3 of us have huge melons...LOL! When fitting a Deviant, don't be tempted to try the next size lower than what you perhaps should be wearing. Fit your head to the cranial portion of the helmet and adjust the adjustable headband at the back of the helmet. If checking one at a shop, pull out the velcro attached chin and ear pads, or you won't get the full effect of how much air space there is around your head for air flow.

My take on many of these debates about the Deviant and other trail style full coverage helmets comes down to this...many riders are just not full coverage helmet candidates regardless of the type of helmet that gets designed. This debate comes up once or twice a month and always ends the same. Many seem to want something that will never exist because they just won't "feel" right regardless of how the helmet is designed. Personally, coming from a background of dirt motors, I was the opposite in feeling that riding aggressive trail without some sort of chin/jaw protection was a little disconcerting.

On the Giro Switchblade and simiarlarly designed "snap on" attached chin/jaw guard helmets, I had 4 Switchblades over the years because nothing else was really available back then. I broke all of them relatively easily, but at least they were better than nothing. I will say, however, that I don't believe my Switchblades allowed any better air flow than the Deviant. The Switchblade fits much closer around the ears and jaw and does give that closed-in effect compared to the Deviant. While I'm sure some will accuse me of holding stock in the Deviant or something, the only reason I personally give it props is because it works, and it's about the only real and effective trail full coverage helmet available IMO.

Helmets can be very preferential pieces of equipment...maybe even emotional. They're like hats...10-gallon cowboy models for some, wool beanies for others, goofy sherpa types, baseball caps...well, you get the picture. In off road use, however, they have to do quite a bit in the way of protection while providing adequate air flow. Full coverage helmets will not be for everybody no matter how they design them. 

One last comment...on the suggestion that bike helmets could be designed with chin/jaw guards that have a wire or bar design like a hockey, football, or other sports setup, I would bet the last penny of my stock portfolio that it would never fly successfully. I don't care how efficient and safe it might be, it would look goofy, and most all of us would run at full speed the other way if it came down to wearing one...LOL! Yes...we really are that vain...LOL!


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

Good points, TNC. BTW - I did try my (large) Deviant w/o the padding, but it was just too loose, no matter how hard I cinched the straps and the retention system. The medium just did not fit.

Ant


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## mcflan (Feb 5, 2008)

I may sound like a turd, but I think that the Flux is kind of a good compromise. Granted, it doesn't give you full face protection, but it covers the back of your head as a full face would. 

Whats wrong with taking a fall on your face?


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## Purs (Jan 30, 2008)

just to add more fuel to the fire... Although the Deviant never seemed noticeably "hotter" than my DecibelI, it took me 2 or 3 good rides before I got acclimated to the Full Faced Deviant. Mainly it was 2 things: 

1. It was a little difficult using my camelbak than with my open faced helmet.

2. I didn't like hearing myself breath, more like huffing and puffing when riding fast.

I will say, that after just a couple of rides, I have no problem using my camelbak and I don't even notice my breathing anymore. My advice, don't give up on the helmet after just 1 ride.

Great helmet if you need AM protection. JMHO


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## PaMtnBkr (Feb 28, 2005)

*Amen!*



nufenstein said:


> wire guard, ala football/hockey helmets...super ventilated and when secured properly would have good impact resistance right?


I am totally with you on this one! I never understood why we can't have an XC style helmet w/a wire guard type face covering? Even if it was like a NFL kickers single bar type guard it would be adequate if the rest of the helmet stayed in place when you crash. Makes sense to me at least. If a field hockey style helmet was better ventilated it might make a good one?


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

antonio said:


> So, are you saying you use the Deviant as a DH helmet, but not as an AM helmet? (gotta love these labels)


Well, it depends. If I know there is going to be alot of climbing I tend to go for the more XC style helmet, but I don't mind the Deviant for short climbs (meaning under an hour, or no more than a couple miles). I guess I'd say I think it's suitable for super-d style rides, where you shuttle to the top but there is still climbing involved down the trail. I didn't think about removing the padding in the front though, I may have to try that for some trail rides later in the year!

So yeah, I use it more as an DH helmet I suppose. There is no way I'd use any of the other pressure-cooker full-faces out there if I knew there was any climbing at all though so thats where it makes the difference for me.


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## BanzaiRider (Jan 15, 2004)

antonio said:


> Hmmm. That's a bit worrisome, actually. Do you have a link? I'm curious as to how it happened.
> 
> If industry insiders do poke their heads in these forums, maybe we should start a poll?
> 
> Ant


No, it was a while ago. I think some photos were posted here on MTBR. Basically the mouth guard of the Switchblade is just a thin slice of plastic so when it break if the broken part happens to move towards the inside then it will scratch/cut you skin in the process. If I remember well I had seen one picture of someone that was cut and another that was a close call, the person was not cut but he was showing the broken mouth guard. I've never been able to validate for sure if that was the reason Giro stopped producing it but I wouldn't be surprised is it was. My Casco Viper's mouth guard is not at all like the Swithchblade, it has some of the foam on the just like the inside of the helmet itself so I don't think it would be subject to the same problem as the Switchblade.


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## BanzaiRider (Jan 15, 2004)

TNC said:


> Banz, I still don't understand the part about the jaw piece being too restrictive and too close where it would affect breathing. With the appropriate padding removed...as allowed by its design...it looks very much like an XC cranial bucket and flows air very much like one. ...If checking one at a shop, pull out the velcro attached chin and ear pads, or you won't get the full effect of how much air space there is around your head for air flow.


You're right TNC, when I checked it out at a shop I was too shy to pull out the pads. I guess I'll have to go again. Ho well, I wanted to go check flat pedals and shoes so might be a good timing to open up the wallet AGAIN!!!!!


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## Yardstick (Jan 10, 2007)

There seem to be a couple of options in the land across the pond:


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## Freerydejunky (Sep 21, 2006)

Yardstick said:


> There seem to be a couple of options in the land across the pond:


I just LOL'ed ahahahah  
Suck it up guys, I wear a skate lid for 50% of my riding which is all FR and DH. 
Strap on some goggles for the ultimate look.


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

i DON'T THINK A WIRE FACE GUARD WOULD WORK GOOD. tHINK ABOUT HOW A FOOTBALL HELMET IS MADE AND WHATS IT IS MADE OUT OF. Sh!t, sorry for the caps.
Anyways, a football helmet is made out of very heavy thick plastic. The wire guard attaches to the helmet with nylon clamps and screw/screw posts. Unless the helmet was made out of solid heavy plastic, the wire guard would just break off the helmet causing more danger than protection. It's not really doable without making the helmet weigh 3-5 lbs IMO.
You could use carbon bars, but have you ever seen broken carbon fiber? Imagine a saw that has razor blade teeth. Thats pretty much how sharp broken carbon is.
IMO, I will stay away from carbon helmets of any style for that reason. I'd rather have a helmet that weighs a little more, protects as good and costs a fraction of the price.
There is really only a few options here. Either wear a FF helmet and sweat while protecting your pretty mug.......................
Wear a regular helmet and risk bashing your face in...................or wear a "fake" FF helmet giving you a false sense of security.
What I mean by "fake" is a helmet that looks like a FF, but doesn't really offer that much protection, and could end up being a danger if the guard unsnaps or cracks durring a crash.
Lets face it (no pun intended) there aren't alot of options here. Our heads and faces are very important to us, so we protect them as best as we can. I'd rather have sweat pouring into my face than not have a face left to protect.
Also, helmets are really only rated for 1 good impact. Thats another inportant thing to factor in here. Replacement cost after 1 crash. I wear a Giro Remedy 2007 model. Cost me about $80. I hope it to last me through at least this season of riding. Next year I will buy a 2008 remedy on closeout.
They can only take the helmet technology so far with materials available to the market.....they have pretty much done that. Don't expect to find anything really striking (no pun again) hitting the market anytime soon that will offer the same protection of a regular FF helmet.
I strap my FF to my pack for the hills, then put it on when I get to the top. Works good for me.
I also have an assortment of skate helmets and XC helmets I use for other rides. But for AM, its FF all the way.

BTW, the devient looks pretty sweet, but is the minimum I would wear for AM riding. I haven't tried one yet so I can'6t comment on the vents/heat. but my Giro Remedy vents pretty damn good.


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## Wiz (Dec 2, 2004)

I saw the met & wanted to order, but out of stock (large) at CRC. Any idea who has em in stock?


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## tald (Jun 28, 2004)

TNC, thanks!! Removing the lower paddings sounds really interesting. I am currently looking for something a little more serious than the MET parachute, and this may be just the ticket. Did anyone here try this trick with a Troy Lee D2? I wonder how cool it would be. I'll find out tomorrow...


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

TNC, good info!

I gotta check out that Deviant. 

After paying nearly $4000 dollars for ONE dental implant of my #8 tooth (front right tooth), I'm all over a full face rig!


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

TNC,

You used to wear the Pryme AL helmet, correct? I know the Deviant provides more protection, but wouldn't the Pryme fit what the OP is looking for?


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

*Deviant is cooler*



Boulder Pilot said:


> TNC,
> 
> You used to wear the Pryme AL helmet, correct? I know the Deviant provides more protection, but wouldn't the Pryme fit what the OP is looking for?


Yes, and I still wear the Pryme when it's cooler out. The Deviant is slightly cooler...flows more air. I don't really think the Deviant has any more protection. They're fairly equal there.


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## Wiz (Dec 2, 2004)

Some laugh at the Met, but I think it fits a small niche very well. I've been tossing on my ski racing "slalom" wire guard helmet for spur of the moment "backyard" fooling around, I have others, a dot MX and a Fury. Laugh as you may...but my buds got stitches in his face, because he didn't toss on a lite ff lid before heading down the back deck staircase. (btw: played quite a bit of football & saw many face masks blow out, apples & oranges, anyway IMHO. Ones dual purpose; full face contact on a regular basis & general protection - the other; just protection, if you bash it...toss it) The Met would fit the bill after several brewskis, good bike-bar hopping tool.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

I've tried a few "AM" helmets...

The Deviant is a HUGE POS. You will glue almost everything back into place, it should come with bottles of superglue. The chin guard is so far away from your face I believe it is not safe. The XC style "fit system" is fragile and breaks, and makes it uncomfortable to take the helmet on and off if you don't loosen it first, which is a pain. The paint chips off the fiberglass if you look at it wrong, and will keep on chipping off unless you superglue the edges of the chip. Finally, the styrofoam seperated from the shell, so It's in for warranty. 

The Casco Viper... is ok, but has issues as well. The fit system on the helmet is uncomfortable, and has edges that dig in here and there, especially around the forehead. The largest size is barely big enough (even though my head size is 1cm smaller than the maximum size for a large), and the fit is so tight that most regular full face helmets are much more comfortable in comparison when the chin guard is on. The removable chin guard is great, but the clips that hold it onto the helmet crack at the base of the clip. Both of my clips are cracked after a year. However, this is the best option for rides with a good bit of climbing. I'm just not sure how effective this helmet will be if you really need it... 

I just bought a TLD D2. If you don't want to spend the cash, don't try it on.  For some rides I may bring this plus a light xc helmet and retire the Casco.


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## MartinS (Jan 31, 2004)

I'm still surprised mouth guards aren't more popular in mountain biking, they are being seen more and more in BMX in combination with full face helmets. So far the only mtber I've heard of using a mouthguard is George W., - I know, probably a bad example, but if a supposed Moron is wearing one what does that make the rest of us? 
They are pretty cheap, around $75 usually for a custom fit one (at least that's what I charge...)

BTW I've got a Remedy CF and it's pretty nice for aggressive all mountain.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

*Helmet abuse!*



davec113 said:


> I've tried a few "AM" helmets...
> 
> The Deviant is a HUGE POS. You will glue almost everything back into place, it should come with bottles of superglue. The chin guard is so far away from your face I believe it is not safe. The XC style "fit system" is fragile and breaks, and makes it uncomfortable to take the helmet on and off if you don't loosen it first, which is a pain. The paint chips off the fiberglass if you look at it wrong, and will keep on chipping off unless you superglue the edges of the chip. Finally, the styrofoam seperated from the shell, so It's in for warranty.
> 
> ...


Well Dave...don't carry your helmet in the trunk of your car with your bowling ball...and quit using it to transport rocks for the flower bed.

On your shell separation, this indeed was a problem on the first generation of some of these. In fact, the one I've owned since January of '07 was a freebie because it was one where the liner detached from the shell. I got a new one under warranty, but I was curious and inspected the original. It's nothing but a bonding issue and frankly the original looked like it was just hot-glued or something. I reattached my original liner to its shell by using a much better non-foam-eating adhesive...and in more strategic points...and I'm still wearing the same helmet. Spec didn't want the original helmet back as they were aware of the poor bonding, so I have a brand new one still in the box ready for when this one wears out or crashes out. Here's a pic of the shell and foam liner.

On the "huge POS" statement, you're obviously entitled to your opinion, but your results and those of others in our area have differed greatly. Mine is well over a year old now, and at the end of the month, it'll be on its second 2-week Moab trip. As I said before, I wear this helmet almost exclusively with constant yearly riding of usually 3-5 rides a week. I've had many get-offs with it, but the shell and foam liner are holding up well. The attached pic shows plenty of scrapes and such, but everything original is still attached. A fairly serious and competent freerider in our area is using a Deviant, and he's been on the ground with it quite impressively numerous times. He just broke his Session 77, but his Deviant is still going strong.

And please understand, Dave, that I'm not saying that your situation didn't occur, but making the leap to "huge POS" seems pretty harsh. You mention your TLD...yes...an excellent helmet...as is my old Giro Mad Max. But there's no way to really use either of those helmets for true trail and AM riding in most situations. And therein lies the compromise with anything resembling a full coverage AM/trail helmet. The very application requires giving up something to get something useable in the overall trail riding setting...heat, long distances, long time in the saddle, etc. I also know that airwreck, one the moderators, wasn't too impressed with his Deviant when he hit a tree or some other type of significant impact...though he did agree it protected his head and face in that incident.


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

Funny, I have recently worn a mouth guard riding. Teeth are expensive. I hope more people than GWB and I wear them........I don't really wanna be lumped into the same boat as him.
I'd never heard about anybody wearing them before I tried it.....Just seemed like a good idea. I don't wear it all the time, but whenever I am doing really rocky technical singletrack, or fast DH stuff I bring it along. I just use a football guard.


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## rfields4013 (Jul 10, 2004)

motormonkeyr6 said:


> I just LOL'ed ahahahah
> Suck it up guys, I wear a skate lid for 50% of my riding which is all FR and DH.
> Strap on some goggles for the ultimate look.


Agreed!
These "all mountain" threads crack me up.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Oh, and I forgot... the pull tab to loosen the chin strap is frayed to threads, so its very difficult to loosen the chin strap. Yours has held up a lot better than mine, I don't know what I do with the thing, I've never crashed it hard. 

Another thing... they are frikken' HUGE, it makes you look like a baloon head. The distance between your face and the chin guard is almost comical. I'm not sure its going to work very well that way. 

...and the TLD doesn't seem much hotter so far, although I haven't tried it in very hot weather yet. For me, the TLD was just a perfect fit, I almost wish it wasn't because its 2x the price of the Deviant. The Remedy didn't fit at all, I'm right between a M and L...


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Clutchman83 said:


> I gotta go with TNC here. The Deviant is the only true Full-face that has XC ventilation for gnarly rides. I have one, I don't use it for most of my "AM rides" but I do use it for those days I plan on climbing fire-roads to my DH chutes. I just strap it to my pack for the fire-road climbs and rock it on the DH sections. I also have used it for exploratory shuttle runs and it is bearable on short climbs in hot temps. It's not a standard helmet for sure but it is nice to have when the downhill gets gnarly but there is some climbing ahead. I'm shocked that Spesh has the market cornered on this particular full-face style. The switchblade does not even compare, I've handled one and seen a guy use one and I wouldn't put that thing on my head for a second.


For hevans' sake, wear a Xc helmet on the way up and wear a true DH helmet on the way down. I've had too may friend of mine think the specialized Deviant was a true freeride helmet and end up in the hospital with a concussion. The deviant IS NOT A HARDCORE RIDING HELMET!!! I tis a joke. It WILL NOT SAVE YOUR HEAD if you go big. Period.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

BanzaiRider said:


> I think this is like car wipers Jaybo, the companies will never figure it out!  TNC and a few others are really sold on the Deviant. I just tried it in a store but the mouth guard doesn't feel ventilated enough for me to climb. I had a Switchblade for a year, now a Casco Viper, both are very light which is fine for AM but breathing with the mouth guard on is like breathing with a plastic bag over your head so I always have to take the mouth guard off. The only one I tried that does have the potential of having a mouth guard that you can leave on for climbing is the MET Parachute but when I tried one the fit was not good with my head and the mouth guard felt so flimsy that I don't think it really offers protection.
> 
> Basically what we need is a regular XC helmet with a MET Parachute like mouth guard that is both relatively strong and so ventilated that it feels like you don't have any.
> 
> If we keep talking about it maybe some day Giro, Fox, Spec or another will finally listen and give us something nice!


seriously, don't climb in a full-face helmet. Buy a Dakine pack that will hold both a XC and DH helmet and climb with the XC and DH with the DH helmet. Is this rocket science???


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Yardstick said:


> There seem to be a couple of options in the land across the pond:


seriously...... Really...... Don't kid yourself. That Met chin guard will fold faster than a 4-5 pair in Texas hold-em. Why in the world would anyone thrust their face in that helmet???


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Khemical said:


> seriously, don't climb in a full-face helmet. Buy a Dakine pack that will hold both a XC and DH helmet and climb with the XC and DH with the DH helmet. Is this rocket science???


This isn't a bad idea, I just think most riders don't want to have to deal with the redundancy of carrying two helmets around, let alone the weight. I agree with you the Deviant isn't a huck-monster helmet but it's a great option for somebody looking for a lighter weight helmet that offers some full face protection. As long as they understand the limitations of the helmet it offers quite and advantage over a standard XC helmet.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

*Not always an option.*



Khemical said:


> seriously, don't climb in a full-face helmet. Buy a Dakine pack that will hold both a XC and DH helmet and climb with the XC and DH with the DH helmet. Is this rocket science???


Khem, this method works fine when you're riding at a place where the uphills are truly long sustained uphills followed by long sustained downhills. A place like the traditional start of Porcupine Rim at Moab brings to mind the 3 mile "almost" continuous uphill to High Anxiety point, which is then followed by "mostly" downhill to the end. Even then, there are some decent short climbs in that mostly downhill section that will heat up your head pretty darned well inside a heavily padded full coverage helment.

I think most of us here are talking about riding that involves frequent up and down efforts where constantly taking your helmet off and on would get to be a PITA. This is where the compromise of the Deviant-style helmet comes into its own.

One other thing I've wondered about concerning the Deviant's crash worthiness is its Snell bicycle rating. From what I've heard and seen, this is a fairly decent crash rating for any bike helmet. I'm a dirt motor guy too, so I know the value of a deadly serious off road helmet. My Giro Mad Max is fairly well ventilated...basically just like the Remedy...but there's no way I can wear that when riding aggressive trail.


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

Not all of us live in places where you climb for an hour, then descend for 1/2 an hour.

Ant

*_edit: TNC beat me to it._


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## blackagness (Mar 1, 2005)

If I owned a Deviant, I'd wear it, and just take it off on long climbs. I'll be damned if I'll get a concussion climbing.

I wear a regular XC helmet, and if it's hot enough for me to think of it, I'll just take it off when I start a long climb anyway.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

Yeah, but BA, you are known for being a hothead.


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## BanzaiRider (Jan 15, 2004)

Khemical said:


> For hevans' sake, wear a Xc helmet on the way up and wear a true DH helmet on the way down. I've had too may friend of mine think the specialized Deviant was a true freeride helmet and end up in the hospital with a concussion. The deviant IS NOT A HARDCORE RIDING HELMET!!! I tis a joke. It WILL NOT SAVE YOUR HEAD if you go big. Period.





Khemical said:


> seriously, don't climb in a full-face helmet. Buy a Dakine pack that will hold both a XC and DH helmet and climb with the XC and DH with the DH helmet. Is this rocket science???


Khemical, maybe you should start by reading the subject before lecturing people about going "big" and "rocket science"!!!

People participating in this thread are talking about all mountain riding, not going BIG, fast DH, 50 foot gaps and so on!!!


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## blackagness (Mar 1, 2005)

TNC said:


> Yeah, but BA, you are known for being a hothead.


Why that's PERPOSTEROUS!!! :incazzato:


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## blahwtf? (Aug 6, 2005)

the mace one i have is relatively light. it has a large open front. vents. and it doesnt cost too much, i dont think its collapsible though.. and x2 on the met. they call that full?? look s like it might cover your goatee from getting road rash, but if you went into the trees youd get a nice eye-level limb right through one of them holes + into your grill

nobody mentioned the cratoni one is for "youngsters" good thing im the size of a xl teenager. i like that design.


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## Luigiugueto (Oct 16, 2007)

I say stop being so careful about your face..
Not that i'm careless and love to land on my face but damn..
how about using your hands when falling and not your teeth to break the fall??
seriously, it's actually pretty hard to fall on your face. Never happened to me anyways, and i've had some pretty nasty spills.
And Khemical, you've got to be nuts to ride with two helmets, you just got to decide where you're gonna make a sacrifice.. going uphill or downhill. I think it's more logical to make the uphill sacrifice.. falling uphill is kind of stupd but it still happens, but falling while going downhill is a bit more complicated.

No offense to the original poster or anyone else.. just speaking my mind.

BTW Those helmets posted up there (The MET and the other one) are scary... if you want face protection wear a fullface... that would just add "plastic thrusted in his eyes, chin and cheeks" to the fall.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

BanzaiRider said:


> Khemical, maybe you should start by reading the subject before lecturing people about going "big" and "rocket science"!!!
> 
> People participating in this thread are talking about all mountain riding, not going BIG, fast DH, 50 foot gaps and so on!!!


Oh i was more venting at certain people I know that wear deviants and try road gaps, not directed at the OP.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

TNC said:


> Khem, this method works fine when you're riding at a place where the uphills are truly long sustained uphills followed by long sustained downhills. A place like the traditional start of Porcupine Rim at Moab brings to mind the 3 mile "almost" continuous uphill to High Anxiety point, which is then followed by "mostly" downhill to the end. Even then, there are some decent short climbs in that mostly downhill section that will heat up your head pretty darned well inside a heavily padded full coverage helment.
> 
> I think most of us here are talking about riding that involves frequent up and down efforts where constantly taking your helmet off and on would get to be a PITA. This is where the compromise of the Deviant-style helmet comes into its own.
> 
> One other thing I've wondered about concerning the Deviant's crash worthiness is its Snell bicycle rating. From what I've heard and seen, this is a fairly decent crash rating for any bike helmet. I'm a dirt motor guy too, so I know the value of a deadly serious off road helmet. My Giro Mad Max is fairly well ventilated...basically just like the Remedy...but there's no way I can wear that when riding aggressive trail.


true, true. I like the fact that you take solid helemets and modify to fit your needs but people that buy a devaiant and expect real-full-face protection are only kidding themselves.


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## BanzaiRider (Jan 15, 2004)

Khemical said:


> true, true. I like the fact that you take solid helemets and modify to fit your needs but people that buy a devaiant and expect real-full-face protection are only kidding themselves.


To the non believers of light full face helmets here. Keep in mind we are in the All Mountain forum, not the DH/freeride forum. Most people here ride trails, sure technical trails but still trails where you have to pedal up a bit, go down a bit, take a breath and start again. The nature of All Mountain in most cases implies relatively slow speed, not the high speed you usually achieve on a DH lift serviced slope or on a freeride shuttle run.

The Deviant and some of the other helmets mentioned here can easily give a certain level of protection for someone who is pedaling through a rock garden, isn't able to maintain enough momentum/speed to make it through, falls on the side and by accident happens to land face first on the side of a rock. Also, for someone slowly coming down a particularly steep section of a trail, hit a rock the wrong way and goes above the handlebar, very slowly but still happens to land half hands first half face first. Anyway I guess you get the picture.

Sure, the Deviant is NOT for someone coming down a DH slope full speed and is launched several feet in the air to land face first in a tree or tumbles down a rock garden for 10-20 feet of rolling and head banging in rocks.

There is a market for light weight, light protection, very well ventilated All Mountain type full face helmets and the best proof of it is that Europe has several models like the Met, the Casco, etc. The only thing I can see is that North American companies are afraid to come up with more models here because they could get sued by people who do not use their judgment before buying protection equipment. At least Specialized was brave enough to come up with one model.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

BanzaiRider said:


> Sure, the Deviant is NOT for someone coming down a DH slope full speed and is launched several feet in the air to land face first in a tree or tumbles down a rock garden for 10-20 feet of rolling and head banging in rocks.


Hell, I've done that with a XC helmet before. I've got to disagree with you BanzaiRider, I know AM is a fuzzy grey line but to me it means you just climb to the top of the trail that everybody else is shuttling to. I ride just as hard with my Deviant on as I do with a XC helmet, I do not however attempt road gaps or anything too massive, I just go fast for the most part  . I will say I've wrecked 3 XC helmets so far, but no broken bones (I think, never went to the doc) or severe injuries save for jammed fingers scraped up face and sore joints for a couple weeks. I started using a full face as a precaution on shuttle days but I've had great experiences with the XC helmets, they really do save your noggin in a bad situation. The way I look at it, the Deviant is just that much better as it'll protect your grill in the same situations.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

Banz, you may be right as it pertains to the U.S. market. With a greedy lawyer under every rock, there may indeed be a fear factor with these helmets. It may also be why the Deviant has a bike rated Snell certification.


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## airwreck (Dec 31, 2003)

TNC said:


> I also know that airwreck, one the moderators, wasn't too impressed with his Deviant when he hit a tree or some other type of significant impact...though he did agree it protected his head and face in that incident.


actually I would consider the impact that broke my deviant considerably less significant than many other crashes I've had that did not damage the helmet I was wearing. Slow speed, and onto a cedar wood surface. I also experienced cuts to my face, a fat lip, and thought I was spitting out teeth but turned out to be peices of fiberglass. When I called Specialized, they didn't really want to see it, but I encouraged them to let me send it in so they could see first hand what happened. They sent me a 20% off coupon for a new one, but not about to throw money away on one again. Also agree on the bad paint and other bits falling off.

Great concept, poor execution.


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## BanzaiRider (Jan 15, 2004)

TNC said:


> Banz, you may be right as it pertains to the U.S. market. With a greedy lawyer under every rock, there may indeed be a fear factor with these helmets. It may also be why the Deviant has a bike rated Snell certification.


Yes, no matter what I think I'll get one of those Deviant soon before Spec decides to take it out of the NA market like Giro did with the Switchblade. As far as I'm concerned it should be illegal to sue a protection equipment company in a sport like mountain bike unless it can be proven out of no doubt that the helmet had a manufacturing defect. It should also be illegal to sue downhill mountain resorts when an idiot doesn't control his bike/speed and breaks his neck. This is so ridiculous, it's the main reason hurting our sport here. Insurance fees are so high that most don't want to let bikers use their land by fear of being sued and that includes regular trail land, not just DH resorts. Ho well, I had to vent a bit!


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

Also, the term AM is so losely thrown around, everybodies version of it is slightly different.
My version of AM leans a bit more towards the DH side of the sport, while keeping the bikes light enough to still be able to pedal uphill.....yet strong enough to be able to take some abuse. Other peoples version of AM may differ quite a bit. Either way, I did a 10 mile ride yesterday with 1000' of climbing (maybe more) and over 2000' of descent, all the while wearing my Giro Remedy, and had no issues of heating up and had plenty of air flow. Only took it off for about 30 seconds to scratch my ear, otherwise I was wearing it the whole time.


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## flyag1 (Jun 9, 2007)

*Helmet Manufactures, you listening?*

I just wish someone would post up a positive reply, we all are looking for answers... not nay sayers....

any manufactures listening..... we need light weight protection and we are willing to pay the price!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**** we pay $300 plus for brakes, $300 plus for cranksets, $300 plus for hubs, we damn well will pay $300 for a light weight well ventilated full face helmet.


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

I'd pay $300 for a lightweight well ventilated helmet. As long as it protected my face well.


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## Truckee Trash (Sep 18, 2007)

I duno . . . Ive started with the XC helmet took a nice endo and got a Full Face Pro Bravo 661 and rocked that up until a month ago when I moved back to AZ and decided that I would be better with an additional helmet I got the Protec Cyphon and it rocks. Great helmet and its got the BOA adjustment system. Plus its heralded as a multiple impact lid, though that can be loosely interpreted. 

I wore the full face in AZ from september through december. . . Only once in the middle of the day at 115+ did it get to hot (and yea I almost passed out half way up a pretty bad climb). . .but thats all my own fault. Get used to it if you want the protection right? 

That being said I ride as hard as I can in both, more courage at faster speeds in the Full Face, but again, I bought that to help progress and protect. It gave me more courage to work on more technical freeride stuff. . . and Ive only hit my head once, smashing my Fox helmet. . . and it freaking saved my life. Cant have everything perfect can we now?


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

*Giro Remedy vs. Pro-tec Shovelhead*

I've been reading this thread- Right now I have a Giro Havoc for XC and a protec Ace for dh, I like both but I'd like some face protection.I've been thinking about getting a low-profile full face, I like the look of the Viper but now I'm leaning more toward either a Giro Remedy or a Protec Shovelhead, both seem lightweight, low profile and won't braek the bank. Any opinions on which one is better ventilated, offers more protecion, etc.? Is the Giro Remedy good for multiple impacts like the pro-tec? On a side note, is there a time interval during which you should replace your helmet even if no crashes in case the plastic or foam gets brittle over time? I've had both my current helmets for over two years now.(only crashed the Pro-tec). thanks.


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## BanzaiRider (Jan 15, 2004)

flyag1 said:


> any manufactures listening..... we need light weight protection and we are willing to pay the price!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> **** we pay $300 plus for brakes, $300 plus for cranksets, $300 plus for hubs, we damn well will pay $300 for a light weight well ventilated full face helmet.


I'll second that, seems like some suspension and frame manufacturers sometimes participate on MTBR but helmets... designers are probably coming from moto and road, no mountain biker designs helmets!


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## MFDOOM (Mar 26, 2008)

Hell, I just use my trusty Giro Nine.9 with the earpads removed/unclipped


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## congarong (Jan 17, 2008)

This is a friend of mine. Face plant into a north shore drop off. He was wearing a Brian Lopes style piss pot helmet. I feel very exposed when i wear an open face helmet, i have a giro Xen which is super comfy but does not promote confidence when the flow is with you. I have also got a very comfortable giro Remedy for the more daring stuff but it does get a bit hot and it is not nice to breathe heavily when climbing a hill, especially after a night of drinking.


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## TheDon (Oct 18, 2005)

I think that full face helmets are well worth it.

First proper DH session I went on, my friend had the luck to have a spare full face helmet and I had the miss-fortune to not be able to figure out the line through an especially steep section of rocks (rock garden is perhaps the name for it). And before I know it, I was flying through the air with a nice face-plant landing.

It was in the following seconds that I realized the benefit of a full face and will never ride DH or serious trails without one.


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

And that protects your face how?



MFDOOM said:


> Hell, I just use my trusty Giro Nine.9 with the earpads removed/unclipped


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

Well, if we've all taken the time to partake in this thread, then we may as well take another minute or two and write to the people that matter, the helmet makers themselves.

Tell 'em what you want guys. Give them real feedback.


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## glacierangel (May 15, 2006)

For more technical/dangerous trails I carry the remedy helmet up and wear it down. No overheating, and safe. If it is a simple (gravel road) climb, I wouldn't worry about a helmet on the way up .


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

glacierangel said:


> If it is a simple (gravel road) climb, I wouldn't worry about a helmet on the way up .


Word. I require my buddies to have a helmet if they ride with me but if I'm climbing a fireroad I find it to be over-cautious. If you fall of your bike on a gravel road you shouldn't be riding singletrack.

Now, rolling trails are different... helmets are good!


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## Perfect_Drift (Nov 2, 2007)

i don‘t have a helmet…………


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## tald (Jun 28, 2004)

TNC, your suggestion to remove the front paddings did wonders to the breathability for my TLD D2. I am now able to use it for the full ride, climbs and all. I just hope it will still give me some added benefit to the MET parachute it replaces without those paddings in place, but its hard to believe it won't.


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## flyag1 (Jun 9, 2007)

Perfect_Drift said:


> i don't have a helmet&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


Well then please don't ride my trails!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
I don't want to pickup your gray matter!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Nor does anyone else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My point is simple: if you don't have respect for yourself I don't care, but please have respect for the rest of us, as the governing body of most trails (be it city, state, or BLM) require that all riders wear helmets. If riders don't follow the rules then we all face the real possibility of having OUR trails closed... Believe me, if I see you on OUR trails without a helmet we will have a face-to-face talk:nono:


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## Luigiugueto (Oct 16, 2007)

Perfect_Drift said:


> i don't have a helmet&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


DUMBASS


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## Singletrakin Mike (Jun 7, 2008)

I just got the Flux helmet from FOX... its a good inbetween it doesnt have the full face and chin protection a downhiller had but it has alot more that a regular xc helmet its sort of a blend of a skate park helmet and a xc helmet


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## dougj13 (Sep 6, 2006)

talk about heat, i use an hjc motorcross helmet from my atv... i guess u could say it gets hot lol


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## Bull_D (Apr 9, 2008)

Perfect_Drift said:


> i don't have a helmet&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


gee........1st post. could he be fishing??:eekster:


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