# DH back in the days



## Fevilion (Mar 21, 2007)

Hi. I would like to know more about the early stages of downhill mountainbiking.
When did this become its own genre, how where the tracks, and how did they customize their bikes for downhill use. 

I got into mountain biking in 94 and we used to customize our steel xc bikes with riser bars, maguras, and suspension(rockshox mag and marzzochi xc) to make them work more like todays freeride bikes, and used them for dh, street, and dual slalom.. 
I remember when i was a young kid working after school at the local bike shop, dreaming about riding the sintessi verlicchi they had hanging at the wall.
Well, the sintessi doesnt hang there anymore, and todays dh bikes are way out of my league. So i would like to take it back to the days of high speed on short travel and rim brakes, and learn more about how this part of the sport developed.

Articles and pictures of oldschool downhill and kamikaze bikes will be much appreciated. Especially sintessi`s, kasttle`s(italian), and diamond back`s who where the first downhill bikes i ever saw, but cant seem to find anywhere today.

Sorry if my english is a little rusty..
Fevil.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

*How about a sidehack?*

I can't remember when this was taken but I know who the riders are.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

geckocycles said:


> I can't remember when this was taken but I know who the riders are.


I can help, because I put on that race.

It's from the 1984 Repack Downhill, the last one, photograph by Harley Parson. It even says so on the photograph.

Steve Boehmke is driving and I'm pretty sure it's Kye Sharp on the sidecar.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Fevilion said:


> Hi. I would like to know more about the early stages of downhill mountainbiking.
> When did this become its own genre, how where the tracks, and how did they customize their bikes for downhill use.


Since I was at the first "unofficial" downhill race and the first two "official" downhill races, I'll just direct you to the page on my website that answers your questions. *Click this.*

Click the various links on the page for more detailed information.


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## Fevilion (Mar 21, 2007)

Thank you very much guys. this was realy kool! I didnt realize how far back in time this have been going on.. Even before i was born Some of the bikes actualy looked more like bmx`s with 26" weels. realy cool bikes! (im into oldschool bmx aswell)
I would love it if anyone has more info about, or photos, of the first suspension bikes used in DH. What did the bikes look like from the late 80`s to the mid 90`s.? 

I hope i dont ask to many questions, i just find this realy interesting, and this seems the best place for good answers.


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## stubecontinued (Mar 14, 2007)

That site is one of the coolest, most informative mountain biking sites I have seen. I love history. I love bikes.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Fevilion said:


> I would love it if anyone has more info about, or photos, of the first suspension bikes used in DH. What did the bikes look like from the late 80`s to the mid 90`s.?


Here is the advertising sheet for the first suspension bike that I know got into a race, Brian Skinner's Descender, which he raced at the last Repack event in 1984.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Kye is the Monkey for sure but I believe, by the Jersey and pants, the driver is Skinner. Do you think that could be? I am going to look through my photos to see. We wore motorcycle leathers back then mostly. I went through 2 pairs as I recall. 

I have Kye's number and will ask him. 

Late


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

search for early suspension bikes here. This is one of them. http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=82430

Our early DH bikes were all rigid and were cruisers with high rise or motorcycles handle bars. Coaster brakes and or drum or BMX MX1000 side pull brakes with motorcycle levers. Tires usually had liners in them of some kind. Some early MTB tires had virtually no tread and we cut the beads off and used them as liners. I am talking about late 70's. Later we converted Schwinn Varsity's, spread the stays and put ballon tires on them. This was because they had hangers on the rear drops and were much lighter. After a while, even your best girl got tired of driving us up the mountain.
I'm sure RepackRIder has some photos.
I believe Skinner had a rear suspension bike in 82. He used Landing Gear forks. Hanabrink came out with his version after Skinner.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

I talked to Kye this AM. He was the monkey and that is Steve as the pilot. You were right. Both Steve and Brian had the same gear. 
Kye told me that thehack was done for at the end of the race. 2 flats, and frame had come apart in multiple places.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

geckocycles said:


> Kye told me that the hack was done for at the end of the race. 2 flats, and frame had come apart in multiple places.


Hehehehe... Those guys showed up from SoCal, ready to show us what was what, but they were not ready for a hill like Repack. Their bikes weren't either. Maybe they thought it was some kind of big BMX track or something. I think Brian's Descender had problems also.

Tell Kye to start posting here, and if you ever run across Skinner, tell him to get in touch. Haven't seen the boy since... Well, you know what happened.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

I'm sure the boys just through that hack together. Repack was a great course. I only rode it once and it was with you, Fisher, Charlie Cunningham, Kurt Brown and I can't remember who all else from some sandwich shop Co-Op? We had a blast and didn't get caught. I think we took a single track off of Repack to the bottom. Those sure were the days.
Anyway I didn't remember it being that rough. Just fast! with lots of cool turns. I think most So-Cal rides are dryer and rockier. How this has evolved. I remember seeing tracks and you could tell who they were from.

Kye said that the Desender did break at the ST. Kye said it was one of Hannabrinks.

I'm still pulling out the stops trying to locate Skinner. Kye thought he had his number but no luck. RC emailed me his cell and home numbers but I've only been able to get his voice mail. I need to try harder. Been busy moving and working when I can. I'm moved out but not in.

Kye is not computer literate and has dial up and AOL but is never dialing in. He's married, moved to Frazier, Colorado and is a Plumbers helper. We hope to caravan to Ca. the first week of July.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

*check out the Skinner desender completed thread*

CK,

Getting closer on the contacts. I have new info that I got from Boehemke for Skinny and Harlow. The email sent to Skinner hasn't been returned, so there is hope. PM or call me and I will give this info to you. My info is on my website.


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

Believe it or not, it wasn't unusual to see bar ends on downhillers in the early / mid 90's....


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

*Skinner is located*

See the Desender completed thread for some straight info.
'81 first Desender produced by VVA. Square stays.
'82 Hannabrink produced round stays with progressive linkage.
'83 to '84 bikes were produced by Champion with all square stays. 2 bikes total with disk brake mods. These were Champion production with the roller cams studs cut off and disk mounts welded on. They had nitrogen shocks.


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## lazyracer (Apr 11, 2004)

If anybody cares, the "original" Mountain Cross Racing DESCENDER frames were built by Dan Hanebrink in Big Bear CA, I watched him build the first batch. The shock had something like 300+ p.s.i. of nitrogen or something like that, not too practical. The frame was a mutation of a S.E.Racing cruiser frame and a rear shock. In my opinion it was not engineered enough to handle the stress of a high pressure shock.

I was approached to race one of these things, wasn't convinced of the safety or functionality of this rear shock design without a front suspension to go along with it. The DESCENDER needed a suspension front fork, which Dan Hanebrink later perfected.

At the time this bike was introduced, there was a 30-35 mile mega-downhill fireroad 'race' from Big Bear to Mentone in 1984 that this DESCENDER thing was supposed to win, and bag a big publicity splash on the local DH scene, the superior suspension bike would be kicking everyone's tailside with it's speed and shock absorption. 

Unfortunately I won the big DH on a no-suspension hardtail, and pissed off a few peeps. 
ho-hum ...

'lazyracer' jim harlow


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## ssulljm (Sep 3, 2006)

Lazyracer, AKA Wiley Coyote?


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## lazyracer (Apr 11, 2004)

lazyracer = Wiley Coyote, 
from the Coyote Derby era 1980-1984
flying low under the radar 
trying to keep the wheels round
trying to keep the wheels rolling 
under the beast behind the bars mostly


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

lazyracer said:


> lazyracer = Wiley Coyote,
> from the Coyote Derby era 1980-1984
> flying low under the radar
> trying to keep the wheels round
> ...


You always did have a way with words! DNF reports were so cool. "Had to see a man about a Horse" Hilarious! 
Your race reports were classic reading! They just don't do reports like that anymore.
http://geckocycles.com/some_old_stuff.htm

It really saddens me where the sport has gone to. I am partly to blame as most of us pioneers were. We all wanted better equipment and worked with the big Mfg's to have them bring those ideas and needs we had to market. Now there is so many of us that we are restricted from the planet unless you pay and play at ski resorts for the most part.

I remember when we could tell who was out riding by the tire tracks. Now you can't even ride in those places.


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## ssulljm (Sep 3, 2006)

http://www.completesite.com/mbhof/page.cfm?pageid=7&categoryid=6&memberid=140

Yep,
We bumped elbows a few times decades ago, thought I recognized your kkkristian name.


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## Howley (Nov 23, 2005)

*1984 Repack*

Here are some more from that fine day...



















Album Slide Show

Klunkerz rule...


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

sweet!


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

The Repack Downhill events from 1983 and 1984 (shown in Howley's photos) were the first sanctioned DH races in the history of cycling as far as I know. At the time, the future of DH looked bleak, because we had burned out our welcome at Repack, and no one else was willing at that time to take up the mantle.

Take a moment right now to lift a glass to Don Douglass, who stepped up in 1985 and put on the Mammoth Kamikaze. He is the man who saved downhill.

Of course, the wildly popular event was taken away from him the next year by Mammoth, but Don had the vision and the guts to make it happen, and downhill did not die with the end of the Repack series.

A filmmaker named Rob K has put together a short film with me on Repack, and you can check it out on YouTube.






During the recent *Specialized press op* at Tamarancho, I put on an informal Repack event, and one of the English riders, against all advice, decided to show us rubes how it's done. Here is his video:


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Repack Rider said:


> The Repack Downhill events from 1983 and 1984 (shown in Howley's photos) were the first sanctioned DH races in the history of cycling as far as I know. At the time, the future of DH looked bleak, because we had burned out our welcome at Repack, and no one else was willing at that time to take up the mantle.
> 
> Take a moment right now to lift a glass to Don Douglass, who stepped up in 1985 and put on the Mammoth Kamikaze. He is the man who saved downhill.
> 
> Of course, the wildly popular event was taken away from him the next year by Mammoth, but Don had the vision and the guts to make it happen, and downhill did not die with the end of the Repack series.


For over 30 years I have been listening to your story of how you invented the mountain bike and DH racing. You are pathetic CK and it makes me gag that you keep telling everyone and yourself these lies. I don't know how you can live with yourself. I guess if you tell yourself something often enough you will believe it yourself.

Harlow remembers in 1961 hiking up a 8 mile dirt road for 2 hours with 30 to 50 guys just to have a mass start mayhem on modified multispeed cruisers. Cooling the drum brakes with canteen stops, wearing football helmets taken from the school. This was a weekly event.

Although I never was in rides of this caliber so early I certainly had several of the buds do basically the same thing in the mid to late 60's as well.

Of course you have heard this and many other stories like them but just keep telling the F'in world how you were the first.

How many pictures do you need sent to you with groups of guys on bikes on top of Mt McKinley in the late 1800's. Were they not Mountain Bikes? Some even had some kind of suspension too. Brake technology was certainly not there but they and their bikes were! There were guys on fixed gear bikes doing that ****. If YOUR definition of a Mountain Bike is multispeed there were 10 speed bikes in the early 60's too because I had one of those as a young kid. It was heavy SOB. I put gears off early road bikes on my cruiser in the 5th grade. I have always been a dirt monger and had a need for speed in the dirt.

Just because Repack died doesn't mean DH racing died. You think Repack was the only place in the world that DH events were run? You live in a very small world of your own here. I wish we had pictures our early experiences. Just because we didn't document everything that we did doesn't mean that it didn't happen. I'm sure someone out there has photos someplace. It was rare that we even had a camera between several families not to mention someone lugging on up a mountain to use it taking pictures of crazy kids.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

One thing for certain about Repack. It was the first trail that was closed to MTB's. This started a huge domino effect felt around the world. I fought very hard to keep our trails open in SB. My main argument is that you can't close the trails on a perceived threat and being MTB'ers were and still are the main user groups and do the most on trail days to maintain them the trails are still open for the most part. Thanks to the forest service for keeping an open mind!

I now live just outside Boulder, CO and EVERYTHING here is closed to MTB's We have but 2 trials that are with in 40 mins drive that are "multi use" and they are packed on the weekends. I don't understand why the hikers and horse people would choose to use these trails with all the MTB's packed in but they do and it is miserable.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

_One thing for certain about Repack. It was the first trail that was closed to MTB's._

I've been riding Repack for about 35 years now, and I never heard that.

When did it happen? When did it open again?


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

_For over 30 years I have been listening to your story of how you invented the mountain bike and DH racing. You are pathetic CK and it makes me gag that you keep telling everyone and yourself these lies._

Wow. Such hatred.

I never claimed to have invented the mountain bike, so you didn't hear that from me. But the name came from the company that Gary and I started, which we called MountainBikes, and we were the first company that made nothing but off-road bikes. Maybe you noticed that until about 1985 every company that made "mountain bikes" just copied our design, and also used our company name to describe the product.

Can you show me a printed reference to mountain bikes by that name before September 1979? Didn't think so.

_Just because Repack died doesn't mean DH racing died. _

Correct, and I gave credit to Don Douglass for keeping it alive. Who do YOU give the credit to?

_You think Repack was the only place in the world that DH events were run?_

Of course not. I was aware of the Morrow Dirt Club's races, and there was the Bidwell Bump in Chico. Every group that ever rode dirt raced down the hills. If you want to break out the posters advertising some of the DH races that took place before Repack, I'll be happy to take a look at them. I have all the results for every Repack race also, so why don't you break out the results for the races you are talking about, and we can compare dates?

What, no record of the results? Maybe that's your problem. You didn't document anything.

Repack was where the first sanctioned, OFFICIAL DH races took place. Look it up.

Ken, I never knew you had all these issues. Go take a ride.


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## FairfaxPat (Jan 29, 2008)

Yo Geocycles-you sure are good at slinging the mud without anything but your words to back it up. You come across to me as a whining loser wannabe who wasn't ever there.


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## ssulljm (Sep 3, 2006)

I'll step on to the plank, and I ain't no lap dog.
From a 25+yr mt biker, My heartfelt thanx to CK and the many 60-70's era Marinnites,we can distill what we choose out of any web cybertyping.
I enjoy the hell outa the input CK has provided this forum, also many of the articles he's spent the energy to meet a deadline with.
Back to lurk and riding Montara Mt today, my legs speak best for me.


ride like horse
eat like pig
sleep like baby


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

from what i understood CK and Gary Fisher invented the NAME Mountain bike. Also they were clever enough to market it right.
i have ridden cruisers w/ big tires and 3 speeds since 1966 and i didn't invent a mountain bike because there was NOTHING TO BE INVENTED. those were bicycles, that's all.
the 26in wheeled shimano/ suntour geared fat knobbed tire is sure a cool thing but not really any invention at all. it's just another marketing experience. plus some great builders and great bikes to ride on trails. everything else is balloney.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

FairfaxPat said:


> Yo Geocycles-you sure are good at slinging the mud without anything but your words to back it up. You come across to me as a whining loser wannabe who wasn't ever there.


You obviously don't know who I am or you wouldn't say that.
I got your wannabe hangin punk!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Not. Helping. Cause.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

colker1 said:


> from what i understood CK and Gary Fisher invented the NAME Mountain bike. Also they were clever enough to market it right.
> i have ridden cruisers w/ big tires and 3 speeds since 1966 and i didn't invent a mountain bike because there was NOTHING TO BE INVENTED. those were bicycles, that's all.
> the 26in wheeled shimano/ suntour geared fat knobbed tire is sure a cool thing but not really any invention at all. it's just another marketing experience. plus some great builders and great bikes to ride on trails. everything else is balloney.


+1 on that


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

I really think it is funny though, that with as many GF haters as there are, CK is straight up saying that GF and he invented mountain bikes (or coined the term at least)


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## FairfaxPat (Jan 29, 2008)

Yo Geocycles-I obviously don't know who you are-did you do something to make yourself famous or are you just some guy with a big opinion of himself?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

FairfaxPat said:


> Yo Geocycles-I obviously don't know who you are-did you do something to make yourself famous or are you just some guy with a big opinion of himself?


who is famous? john travolta is famous. michael jackson, madonna, eddy merckx, lance armstrong... those guys at TV reality shows; they are also famous.


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## sho220 (Aug 3, 2005)

colker1 said:


> who is famous? john travolta is famous. michael jackson, madonna, eddy merckx, lance armstrong...


haha...true...no one on this forum is famous...regardless of how important they think they are...

this is just sad...like listening to Al Bundy talk about his old football days...


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Wow. Gotta say that the direction this is going is not in character with this forum. Might be the first VRC thread recycled. There's obviously a difference of opinions. I'd sure like to see it left at that.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

ssulljm said:


> I'll step on to the plank, and I ain't no lap dog.
> From a 25+yr mt biker, My heartfelt thanx to CK and the many 60-70's era Marinnites,we can distill what we choose out of any web cybertyping.
> I enjoy the hell outa the input CK has provided this forum, also many of the articles he's spent the energy to meet a deadline with.
> Back to lurk and riding Montara Mt today, my legs speak best for me.
> ...


I'm not saying that CK doesn't have lots to offer the sport because he does. I enjoy his memorabilia and the time he takes contributing to this site. That is not what I am talking about. Bold statements are what I have trouble with coming from a closet full of capitalists. Just because you market something or say it to as many people who will listen doesn't make it fact. But as in journalism the real truth is never told correctly. CK may or may have not coined the term Mountain Bikes for their shop. It doesn't mean they invented Mountain Bikes or DH racing.
A very short story here. I trademarked Gecko Cycles. This doesn't mean that I invented the Gecko. There is a company that wants to own the name Gecko in every sense of the word and they have the money to push people into conceding. This doesn't mean they invented the word Gecko. I blocked their attempts to own Gecko in the sporting goods category. This is a 10 million dollar a year company. After 3 years of battling them we came to an agreement. I'm happy but that doesn't mean I invented a word.

If CK owned the word "Mountain Bike" then he would be getting royalties from anyone who called their bikes Mountain Bikes. This isn't the case.

This isn't about Mountain Bikes so much as is the film he made or helped make that said he had the first DH race and Repack is the origin of the sport of DH racing and or Mountain Biking was invented in Marin or northern California.

This reminds me of a small tourist town mentality trying to make a buck on anything they can anyway they can.

DH racing on fat tire bikes in general was for the most part a covert gathering of friends. I miss those days as I'm sure CK does too. Mountain Bikes were not any different except we were able to pedal for the most part instead of push. We all needed to get away and dirt is and was the place to do it. I won't go into our reasons for getting away for they all differ per individual.

My email is getting bombarded with support from those who don't want to say anything themselves. I don't know why but this is part of the problem. With the internet these days a simple Google search reveals anything that is said within a website and with or without merit. It saddens me that people can get misinformed. The coolest thing about the internet is that I can search for answers for just about anything and it is wrong to have to make a judgment call on what is fact and what is fiction. The more you post something on the web the higher up the search engine results it becomes. This doesn't make it fact just a fact of life.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

ssmike said:


> Wow. Gotta say that the direction this is going is not in character with this forum. Might be the first VRC thread recycled. There's obviously a difference of opinions. I'd sure like to see it left at that.


You are so right. Something of this magnitude should be in a thread of it's own. I would like to see some people come out of the closet on this issue though.

As for me being famous. HA! 
I am just a humble mountain biker who builds the best quality product I can and what I think is available. I don't do it to make money but to provide the safest possible quality work of art that you can ride. Some day maybe it will pay the bills it generates.

I have been around for as long as anyone almost. This is why I can say the things that I say. I have seen this sport grow from a few friends in the dirt having fun to a pathetic over regulated sport where the average joe can't afford to compete without some kind of sponsorship.
I miss the days when the only rule was first one to the finish line wins and your $5 got you an entry and a bandanna or T-Shirt. Now you have to even wear a shirt for god sake and don't stand a chance in the top 50 unless you have a $5000+ bike and watch every aspect of your life as far as health goes.

I have to drive almost an hour to ride a trail legally and I live in the mountains and do trail maintenance on trails I can't ride on.. Sure there's some dirt paths but it isn't the same. I've seen the closure of most every trail I grew up on. The ones that are still open are like freeways on the weekends. Over crowded because there is limited places to ride. Excuse me, excuse me, On your right, sorry......


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## XR4TI (Sep 6, 2005)

OK OK. If I ease everyones minds and take full responsibility for this thread going array. Can I have all your knowledge, experience, contributions to the MTB society, achievements, historical significance to the sport and maybe a frame or two? If not, I'll still take full responsibility. Because I will you know.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

geckocycles said:


> I have to drive almost an hour to ride a trail legally and I live in the mountains and do trail maintenance on trails I can't ride on.. Sure there's some dirt paths but it isn't the same. I've seen the closure of most every trail I grew up on. The ones that are still open are like freeways on the weekends. Over crowded because there is limited places to ride. Excuse me, excuse me, On your right, sorry......


You, my friend, need to get out of Colorado and move to Idaho. The majority of our trails are still empty.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

laffeaux said:


> You, my friend, need to get out of Colorado and move to Idaho. The majority of our trails are still empty.


Sounds like heaven, but are there any mountanias there? LOL Not that I can breath up here enough to get any kind of a workout besides LUNG BURN anyway!

I may be moving back to AZ where the environment is too harsh for the masses. It's hot, rocky, sandy, hot, plants that bite you, steep, hot, and desolate, Oh yea did I say HOT! I might even get my Indian heritage color back again. At least there I will be able to crawl under a rock and die in peace, when the time comes, although if my youth didn't kill me old age doesn't stand a chance! You may quote me on that too. Going into a partnership making off road vehicle parts for Samurais and Track/Kicks which is mostly what I use my shop for now days anyways. Coming full circle but staying in the dirt as I built off road VW's of all kinds before I started building bikes in 79.

I make an intake and cooling manifold setup for the 8v Samurai and Kick motors so you can run a 4 carb setup from a GSXR motorcycle. Makes these little engines SCREAM!


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

http://www.kenbeach.com/about.htm

http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/

I'm Switzerland here gang, we didn't invent anything on the east coast...

I just thought the players should be known.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

KDXdog said:


> http://www.kenbeach.com/about.htm
> 
> http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say I'm a player nor do I take credit for for being the first anything although I did have some innovations. To my knowledge I was the first builder to nail down the industry standard geometry 71/73 with sub 17" stays in early 83. Just a little known fact. Correct me if I am wrong there. It may have been earlier with Todd Campbell's bike which I can't remember the year I built that. I did build a road bike with those angles before that bu twe are talking mountain bikes here. I'll have to see if I can find some kind of record of when his bike was built.

That's so funny. I forgot all about that site. Probably should be updated since 2000. It was a quicky for school but I did add the Sammy page last year.

I like CK's site. Now that's a cool site! I remember so much of what he has on his site and am grateful that he was there to capture all this history. I wish he was down south to document what was happening there too. VVA was a major player in the early days too. He should be asked when he built his first mountain bike. I bellieve he promoted the Puerco DH/ Hill Climb race in 79.


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

KB, with your resume, you are absolutely a "player" in my book!

We all owe a "nod" to you guys who were there in the (for arguments sake) the "beginning" of the movement. 

I wonder...who were the OG's in Europe at that time? I'm sure somebody was bombing down the alps way back then.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Thanks but I really am not. I just smoked allot and had the means to make things! LOL. Lots didn't work at all. I never promoted myself really, mostly word of mouth sales except when MTBA got a hold of the first proto of the Genesis in 89 when I left it at RC's shop and went skiing.

One thing is that we, being the whole world probably, were on parallel tracks all about the same time. CK was the only one who captured what was happening in his small piece of the world and we all thank him greatly for preserving it. This didn't mean that it all happened there first. Like I said we mostly were a covert bunch of renegade stoners for the most part just wanting to not be known about. It was all underground. It very well could of been a north/south Ca thing but east coast had their guys too. When I was in Junior high we had DH chat pile races as did my dad when he was a kid all on ballon tire bikes. We took the chains off and coaster raced with no brakes at all. LOL. There were no mountains in OK but we had lots of insanely steep chat piles with a transition at the bottom that sent most of us to the hospital. That didn't stop us though. I even did those races on refrigerator doors and car hoods. Kind of like the cardboard on grass DH runs except they got orange hot on the run. LOL

I, for many years, enjoyed his Fat Tire Flyer Magazine. What's up with that bro? Get off your A** and get that thing back up. It was awesome!


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Repack Rider said:


> _For over 30 years I have been listening to your story of how you invented the mountain bike and DH racing. You are pathetic CK and it makes me gag that you keep telling everyone and yourself these lies._
> I'm sorry I missed this. I didn't get an email.
> Wow. Such hatred.
> Yes this was a bit strong and I'm sorry.
> ...


 I guess I and many other people have been in the closet on this issue. I just opened the door. 
I hope I can ride. It has been well over year. Last time I rode my knee hurt so bad, just trying to keep up with my 8 year old, that I was nearly in tears. I'll give it another try and give you a ride report. If you recall when I lived up there in Point Reyes my knee was on it's way out then and needing iced daily. Remember me riding with you all with tube socks with the toes cut out pulled up over my knees? LOL. Thanks for thinking of my mental state. That video just gave me a manic moment.


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## sho220 (Aug 3, 2005)

Can't we all just get along???...lol...


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## sho220 (Aug 3, 2005)

colker1 said:


> concede on what? on wrong being right?
> you keep enjoying ignorance and being a smartass. read a book defining what constitutes an art object and then come back. start w/ Heidegger.


Hard to believe someone would write a whole book about what constitues an art object. Even harder to believe someone would bother to read it.


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## mrkawasaki (Aug 2, 2006)

*View from...*

As part of the unashamed outsiders, the 'new wave' of late 80s/early 90s European offroaders, I see that our debt is fundamentally rooted to those that documented, those that shared, those that spread the word. I take the point about keeping movements underground and that other significant stuff must surely have been happening elsewhere (no doubt it was a lot of fun if one was in the clique, albeit in a selfish, tribal and local act) - but to be giving enough to include and embrace others, to vocalise and extend the fraternity - to that I doff my cap. The momentum that ensued was obviously unpredictable, sometimes farcical, sometimes big business, (sometimes A.R.T...) but ultimately global, unifying, healthy etc. etc. for us end users.

To this day most bike fans are assured a warm welcome in Fairfax (I know I got one last year - and an icecream at the Scoop...) - even Johnny-come-lately's from the other side of the pond - this social spirit I applaud, support and hope that I can bring to what we call 'retrobiking' in the UK.

Ask what you can do for your 'sport' - to paraphrase one of your native peers, might be wise counsel at this point...

Mr K


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

mrkawasaki said:


> As part of the unashamed outsiders, the 'new wave' of late 80s/early 90s European offroaders, I see that our debt is fundamentally rooted to those that documented, those that shared, those that spread the word. I take the point about keeping movements underground and that other significant stuff must surely have been happening elsewhere (no doubt it was a lot of fun if one was in the clique, albeit in a selfish, tribal and local act) - but to be giving enough to include and embrace others, to vocalise and extend the fraternity - to that I doff my cap. The momentum that ensued was obviously unpredictable, sometimes farcical, sometimes big business, (sometimes A.R.T...) but ultimately global, unifying, healthy etc. etc. for us end users.
> 
> To this day most bike fans are assured a warm welcome in Fairfax (I know I got one last year - and an icecream at the Scoop...) - even Johnny-come-lately's from the other side of the pond - this social spirit I applaud, support and hope that I can bring to what we call 'retrobiking' in the UK.
> 
> ...


Well put but now you said the "A" word again! LOL

A few too many 3 sybille words though, but the point remains that just because you documented, a DH race for example, doesn't doesn't make you the first one to do one. It may be the first documented and or publicized on a larger scale, I guess I can give him that until someone else comes up with something to the contrary.

Looks like their great marketing got to you. See what I mean?

I'm going to let it go unless this wants to be further discussed in another thread. Personally I don't want to spend the time trying to gather data based on such negative energy. I said my point enough.

Get on the bike and try to find a good downhill and lets talk about that. Trails and fire road DH's should be found and ridden before there is a sign put up banning us from the good times. Oh Yea and keep it a secret or you will surely loose it.

I do have a picture of Kurt Brown and myself at the top of Repack with a international NO sign with a MTB crossed out on it. The photo was taken by none other than CK himself on my camera on the post that the Repack sign was stolen from as I was told. I will have to digitize it. we did the downhill anyway with several other notable rides of the time. Took a single track bypass just before the bottom to avoid any rangers or cops. That single track was awesome by the way.

Another guy who doesn't get a whole lot of credit is another CK. Charlie Cunningham. Although you hear of the company WTB you seldom hear of the man himself. Way ahead of his time and one hell of a rider too. My best friend rode for him. Todd DeAngelis. He had both a road and MTN bike of his and I believe maybe even a cross bike. He was on the National Olympic Team and one of the fastest overall riders of his day. He just sold the road bike for no good reason. SO SAD!! Known as the "Wonder Kinder" was a fearless DH racer. He also rode for VVA , I believe and Mantis.
In the Woman's DH division was Cindy Whitehead. She excelled in DH and gave Alice B. Toeclips (Jacquie Phelan) a good run for her money later in the cross country events. She eventually beat Jacquie but it took a broken seat post to do it which is now a pretty famous race result in itself. I think that was the first time she beat her and not sure if it happened again. Memory fails me there. If I recall correctly Jacquie soon stopped racing opening the door to other women riders to compete. In her day she was unbeatable except on a pure DH event. You try doing a DH on drop bars!


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

YEP! Double track now.
Fats I'd question that and I never heard of a SyCip.
Both Cunningham's Charlie and RC. Although totally different styles. One a hammered crude look and the other grace and flowing. Both technically speaking the best.
Trimble too. 
I have a MCSE, CIW and a BFD. Does that account for something?
Man I got to get to work and make some manifolds. The Fat Tires are gone too so it is time get off the computer.

HEHE> I'll give you Fats but don't forget Land Shark, the most wildest of paint jobs.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

geckocycles said:


> Another guy who doesn't get a whole lot of credit is another CK. Charlie Cunningham. Although you hear of the company WTB you seldom hear of the man himself. Way ahead of his time and one hell of a rider too. My best friend rode for him. Todd DeAngelis. He had both a road and MTN bike of his and I believe maybe even a cross bike. He was on the National Olympic Team and one of the fastest overall riders of his day. He just sold the road bike for no good reason. SO SAD!! Known as the "Wonder Kinder" was a fearless DH racer. He also rode for VVA , I believe and Mantis.


Hey!  Actually Todd sold his road bike a while ago and the person that he sold it to then used it as collateral for some sort of loan, which was defaulted on. The debtor sold the bike to recoup losses, but the bike has now come to rest and is happy to be in NYC.

Todd did ride for Mantis too. Another interesting but sad factoid is that another of his Hams was stolen from him at San Francisco airport by someone pretending to be a porter who offered to take of it for him. Ouch.


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

> Fats I'd question that


No love for us on the right coast...sigh


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## dookie (Sep 6, 2005)

HEY!

how 'bout those vintage DH bikes?


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

bushpig said:


> Hey!  Actually Todd sold his road bike a while ago and the person that he sold it to then used it as collateral for some sort of loan, which was defaulted on. The debtor sold the bike to recoup losses, but the bike has now come to rest and is happy to be in NYC.
> 
> Todd did ride for Mantis too. Another interesting but sad factoid is that another of his Hams was stolen from him at San Francisco airport by someone pretending to be a porter who offered to take of it for him. Ouch.


Sorry, I knew he raced for Mantis. I couldn't remember if he raced for VVA before that.
I wanted a Sherpa after seeing one unpainted at the show. RC wouldn't sell me one unless I went through a dealer so I got an order for 3 together so Europa could become a dealer and Todd D, John Durst, and myself all got custom Sherpa's together. Soon after Ron Harford from Europa got his made.

Yea I now remember the stolen bike. That was his MTB. I can't believe Todd sold his road bike for any price. I need to catch up with him a bit. I got an email from him a few weeks ago when I sent him my photo bucket link of my Crawler Sammy. He sent me picts of his Land Cruise raising a leg!


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

Does BFD stand for something besides Big F'ing Deal?


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

muddybuddy said:


> Does BFD stand for something besides Big F'ing Deal?


 nope


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## mrkawasaki (Aug 2, 2006)

geckocycles said:


> Well put but now you said the "A" word again! LOL
> 
> A few too many 3 sybille words though, but the point remains that just because you documented, a DH race for example, doesn't doesn't make you the first one to do one. It may be the first documented and or publicized on a larger scale, I guess I can give him that until someone else comes up with something to the contrary.
> 
> Looks like their great marketing got to you. See what I mean?


So are you saying that others were there 'first' but ssssh! They didn't want to talk about it or share how good it was with others? And then, many years later, you apparently take it upon yourself to want to share out new credits to these ghost riders, credit they patently didn't want in the first place??!

If they didn't want to talk about being 'first' then, I don't see why you seem so bothered in claiming a right to be considered these unknown soldiers to be 'first' now...

So by this 'great marketing' these guys lived their story and tried to popularise it through making better bikes (not just for themselves now, but for sale to others; to be replicated by better businessmen etc.). Why be so bitter when some choose to be altruistic about sharing such a great pastime??

History would seem to have been written and written well, the milk, racefans, has been drunk....

Mr K


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

KDXdog said:


> No love for us on the right coast...sigh


I'll give you the Fat. One of the earliest Tig machines. I don't know much about their shop and how many employees Chris has. I like the ART category to be individually built with some exceptions I guess. Early Ritcheys for sure and they looked equally as good later in the production era. Even his tig bikes have classic lines but I prefer the hand work era myself.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

dookie said:


> HEY!
> 
> how 'bout those vintage DH bikes?


This was before the CS were lengthened to 22"









Aaron Cox custom VVA Mixty









Kye Sharp Puerco Cyn 









Steve Boehmke 81









VVA Puerco Cyn 









Reseda to the Sea I believe in1980









Here's an old one. Staging for a lemans start race. Had to run to the bikes. Hole Shot Racing event


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Nice~!


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

dookie said:


> HEY!
> 
> how 'bout those vintage DH bikes?


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

bushpig said:


> Nice~!


I resized all the pictures by 50% so they would fit better on the thread. If you want the full size that I have take out the "800/" in the url and you will have it full size.

Sorry I was in hurry. In between welding cycles. Now back to work!


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

This is a great thread. I can not thank some of the names I have seen in this thread enough. I have seen some names that I have learned to know of being the origionators. But, none the less, any one of you guys who got this sport going and spread the word, I can not thank enough. Your dedication, skills, and passion have allowed me to enjoy what I enjoy most,... going fast downhill on constant improving technology. I would love to have a beer with you guys and hear some stories first-hand...


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

sodak06 said:


> This is a great thread. I can not thank some of the names I have seen in this thread enough. I have seen some names that I have learned to know of being the origionators. But, none the less, any one of you guys who got this sport going and spread the word, I can not thank enough. Your dedication, skills, and passion have allowed me to enjoy what I enjoy most,... going fast downhill on constant improving technology. I would love to have a beer with you guys and hear some stories first-hand...


Amen.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Here's a bike I made for my 5 yr old son with 10" aloy wheels, custom CK 20 hole ft hub, CK headset, Ty pivot pins, custom 100 mm cranks, 28 hole rear, snap ring BB with MCR spindle and 4.25" travel.









Is this art?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

geckocycles said:


> Here's a bike I made for my 5 yr old son with 10" aloy wheels, custom CK 20 hole ft hub, CK headset, Ty pivot pins, custom 100 mm cranks, 28 hole rear, snap ring BB with MCR spindle and 4.25" travel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats cool. And better than some of my bikes.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Rumpfy said:


> Thats cool. And better than some of my bikes.


Thanks. He never rode it till he out grew it. I rode it once 7 years ago.
It's for sale. Just have to clean the dust off it and put some air in the shock.
Fillet Brazed and filed HT w/gusset, Y-File it crap stem off a proto and tig throughout.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Here's a 1990 proto that never made it to market. Just testing the design and then I did the Mr Mom thing and moved to Boulder where I had no shop for some time. There were 2 versions of the rear shock that I made. One Hydro with steel springs and one with full urethane. The shock was in the lower strut that bolted on. Had 6" travel in the rear with no change in chain stay length! Pivot bearing was oil impregnated synthetic material.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

geckocycles said:


> Here's a bike I made for my 5 yr old son with 10" aloy wheels, custom CK 20 hole ft hub, CK headset, Ty pivot pins, custom 100 mm cranks, 28 hole rear, snap ring BB with MCR spindle and 4.25" travel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it's an interesting bike. and a couple of nice illustrations.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Repack Rider said:


> Here is the advertising sheet for the first suspension bike that I know got into a race, Brian Skinner's Descender, which he raced at the last Repack event in 1984.


man Canoga Park was 213 area code....so cool


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

More DH stuff and less or no more on the Art stuff please.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

geckocycles said:


> More DH stuff and less or no more on the Art stuff please.


Amen! Art posts are now in a handy Art of Bikes thread. Now let's see some more killer bikes!


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

I have never insulted anyone here, but I sure got in the way of some recently.

I'll discuss anything, but I don't care to participate in flame wars.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Rumpfy said:


> Thats cool. And better than some of my bikes.


These kids of mine don't know how good they have it. Can you imagine having a bike this rad when you were 5? LOL.

My second son ( Victor, and yes named after VVA) didn't ride but he sure pushed it around at the Worlds in Vail and ate up the attention he got! It was a media circus around him and Real TV had some film of it on one of their issue's.

You can't imagine how easy it was for a kid to learn to ride this bike. My first son Jason couldn't ride anything without training wheels and then when he got this he just took off. I could go on and on on why it was so easy to learn on. He won his share of the local races on his. This one has minor changes to it and a rad fade flame paint job. But still he wouldn't ride it. He didn't ride a bike till I got a Tag Along in SB and did the Elwood Boogie. Then he was hooked but by then he had out grown this and now has a Trek.

I think kids need to have heavy steel wheels though. The mass in motion helps keep it upright. But after they learn to ride then the 15 straight gauge with alloy nips on alloy hoops are a real benefit.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

bushpig said:


> Amen! Art posts are now in a handy Art of Bikes thread. Now let's see some more killer bikes!


Thanks, I have resubscribed!


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Repack Rider said:


> I have never insulted anyone here, but I sure got in the way of some recently.
> 
> I'll discuss anything, but I don't care to participate in flame wars.


I rode my bike and put out the fire! Too much negative energy.


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

Wait, you changed your answer. I was racking my brain trying to figure out what it stood for, and I'm usually pretty good at that kind of thing.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

muddybuddy said:


> Wait, you changed your answer. I was racking my brain trying to figure out what it stood for, and I'm usually pretty good at that kind of thing.


I miss read your question. You asked if it meant something other than Big F'in Deal and I originaly said Yep. What I meant is that is what it stands for. LOL


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## SamL3227 (May 30, 2004)

this is sweet!


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## Whacked (Sep 29, 2008)

too bad this thread got a bit derailed into a pissing contest of who was "first".
Hey, me and a buddy used to thrash tricycles down a steep dirt trail, does that count? ROFL! 
Its all about the sport, the fun of downhill racing.
I raced for one season in the early '90's. I had fun altho I sucked  To me it was about meeting other riders, watching and riding in the races, and more importantly, a weekend of FUN!

yea the almighty dollar got into the sport just like any other. But nobody says you have to race at a sanctioned event. Some of the best rides i've been on involved a small group and just head on out, anywhere really. Old jeep roads, abandoned railroad grade, game trails that proved to be some wicked singletrack. Just outside with friends riding.

Who cares who was 'first'.
Get out, ride & have fun.


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