# Mystery steel frame - unusual features



## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

I saw this frame advertised as a 14" Ritchey frame, I bought it out of curiosity and I can tell it's something a bit special, but I need some help to pin down it's ID. i e-mailed jeff at first Flight and he suggested I try here, so here goes.....

First off it's very light, the frame with front and rear derailleurs weighs in at barely 5 pounds, I'm not an expert on frame weight but I think this is probably pretty light for a steel frame. It's an 17 inch frame (centre BB to top of seat tube) and has a 21 1/2" top tube (centre to centre), chainstays are 17" (center BB to centre axle). Headtube is 4 1/2" long sized for an 1 1/8" steerer and is straight gauge, no butting or reenforcement, no downtube gusset either.

Cable routing is along the top tube with all three guides in a cluster on the upper right (when sitting on the bike) of the tube. The rear brake stop is brazed (uniquely in my experience) onto the top of the integrated seat clamp. The seat clamp itself is somewhat unusual in that it comprises of two machined steel blocks brazed to the tube giving the initial impression of a removable clamp, the (presumably original) binder bolt is titanium with an alloy nut.

The frame has two bottle cage size bolt holes brazed onto the underside of the drive side chainstay, (preumably to mount an anti-chainsuck device a la bontrager), there are cage mounts on downtube and seat tube as you would expect and unremarkable brake bosses but that's it for braze-ons, there are no rack mounts on this bike, obviously the ritchey dropouts have none, but in addition there is no chainstay brace and the seatstay brace serves only to alleviate braking flex - it has no holes for mounting racks or mudguards. This frame gives the impression of being a thoroughbred race chassis.

Tubing wise the toptube had an 1 1/4" OD and the downtube has an 1 3/8" OD. seat tube is 1 1/8" and is ovalised where it meets the BB shell. Seatstays are unremarkable, chainstays have a tapering oval profile with flat vertical sides, custom drawn without a doubt. Dropouts as mentioned before are very nice cast Ritchey units, all welds are minimal, neat and precise.

Phew! that's about all I can tell you about the frame, the front derailleur is a very, very nice Sachs unit with a little 'O' design on it that means nothing to me. The rear mech appears to be a Sunrace 595, I've never seen its like before but it seems very well made, a notable lack of plastic parts compared to most Shimano/Suntour units.

I've included some pictures and I'm sure someone on here must be able to ID this thing, I would of though the rear brake stop alone must be unique to one manufacturer....





































Someone on Retrobike suggested it might be a Salsa as they have the cable stop on the seatclamp, but they have downtube gear cable routing and a sleeved seattube, unlike this frame.


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## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

The brazed on anti chain suck plate mounts are found on old Brodies. The welds look filleted, another Brodie trait, if I am not mistaken.

I doubt it was stripped to it's primer before repainting. You might try lightly sanding with a fine grit paper over the spots where decals are likely to be. 

Any serial number?


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

I don't think it's a Brodie as the seat tube extension is quite short, whereas most older brodie frames I've seen are longish like Konas. The paint you see is an awful rattle-can job, underneath is a three coat presumably original finish consisting of white primer, metallic silver base-coat and deep purple clear top coat, no decals. Might be a serial number buried under the red paint I suppose.


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## Joe Steel (Dec 30, 2003)

disease said:


> The brazed on anti chain suck plate mounts are found on old Brodies. The welds look filleted, another Brodie trait, if I am not mistaken.
> 
> I doubt it was stripped to it's primer before repainting. You might try lightly sanding with a fine grit paper over the spots where decals are likely to be.
> 
> Any serial number?


I believe the ovalized downtube (at the bb) is also a Broadie trait.


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## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

This sounds like a mystery that only Dee Eight can solve.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

"ovalized" seattube at the bottom bracket isn't a "insert brand here" trait but a trait of Tange, Ishiwata and Ritchey tubesets. True Temper, Columbus and Reynolds tubesets used in MTB frames were all round seattubes, but Ritchey (being made by Tange), Tange and Ishiwata all employed on their higher tubesets seattube ovalizing and flaring to increase the weld area at the BB shell and stiffen the seattube laterally at this junction.

The triple-butted Ishiwata 4130 tubing on early 90s Rocky Mountain Fusions for example had these seattubes, and it was an option if not standard feature to many Tange tubesets. MTB, Prestige, and Prestige O.S. it was an option, Prestige Concept and Ultimates it was standard. 

Ritchey dropouts just means its a frame likely made with japanese tubing so its probably a Tange something. As to the frame weight, it'd be nice if you weighed it without the derailleurs. 4 pounds or so for a 17" is good for the period so its probably a higher level tubeset, like Tange Prestige. The top-routed cables without a braze-on for a roller in the seattube puts it after oh, 1991 when shimano finally started offering top-pull front derailleurs. A 4.5" headtube suggests its not suspension corrected, and the absence of gussets just discounts it being a bontrager since few mtb brands used gussets on their steel frames back then.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Seat clamp is facing the wrong direction to be a Salsa.

A serial number should clear up quite a bit I think.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> "ovalized" seattube at the bottom bracket isn't a "insert brand here" trait but a trait of Tange, Ishiwata and Ritchey tubesets. True Temper, Columbus and Reynolds tubesets used in MTB frames were all round seattubes, but Ritchey (being made by Tange), Tange and Ishiwata all employed on their higher tubesets seattube ovalizing and flaring to increase the weld area at the BB shell and stiffen the seattube laterally at this junction.
> 
> The triple-butted Ishiwata 4130 tubing on early 90s Rocky Mountain Fusions for example had these seattubes, and it was an option if not standard feature to many Tange tubesets. MTB, Prestige, and Prestige O.S. it was an option, Prestige Concept and Ultimates it was standard.
> 
> Ritchey dropouts just means its a frame likely made with japanese tubing so its probably a Tange something. As to the frame weight, it'd be nice if you weighed it without the derailleurs. 4 pounds or so for a 17" is good for the period so its probably a higher level tubeset, like Tange Prestige. The top-routed cables without a braze-on for a roller in the seattube puts it after oh, 1991 when shimano finally started offering top-pull front derailleurs. A 4.5" headtube suggests its not suspension corrected, and the absence of gussets just discounts it being a bontrager since few mtb brands used gussets on their steel frames back then.


I don't see any ovalizing on this frame. Someone above said it had an ovalized downtube, which is something I've never seen except for on Columbus Max OR tubesets which this is not. The ovalized seat tube is something Ritchey started doing in the 70s on road bikes and mtbs and got the idea from some CA road builder (the name escapes me right now, Simpson?). Apparently in the 90s lots of tubesets and builders started copying that.

To me, the frame does not look fillet brazed, as someone mentioned.

the seat clamp looks nothing like a Salsa regardless of the orientation.

My guess is you just have an early 90s frame made by a smaller builder that isnt really well known. Looks to be decently made.

By the way, not to burst a bubble or anything, but those derailleurs don't look like theyre too nice. youre probably looking at a ~4lb frame w/o the ders. That's fairly light.


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## Boy named SSue (Jan 7, 2004)

I can't tell from the photo. Is the bottom bracket shell threaded? It looks like it isn't. The use of a press in BB would also be a clue.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Wow, thanks for the response! I shlould answer a couple points and give more information.



> True Temper, Columbus and Reynolds tubesets used in MTB frames were all round seattubes


 I don't wan't to cause trouble here but my 1994 GT Corrado frame which uses a True temper GTX tubeset has a seattube that is ovalised at the BB.(was this a tubeset made onlt for GT bicycles (which this frame is obviously not)



> Seat clamp is facing the wrong direction to be a Salsa.


In this picture of a 1990 Ala Carte the seatclamp is oriented the same and has the similar cable stop:











> I can't tell from the photo. Is the bottom bracket shell threaded? It looks like it isn't. The use of a press in BB would also be a clue.


The BB is threaded, english threads.


> A serial number should clear up quite a bit I think.


There is no evidence of a serial number (or it's removal) on the BB shell or the headtube, there's really nowhere else on this bike you could safely punch an SN - prototype or one off custom then maybe?


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## grawbass (Aug 23, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I don't see any ovalizing on this frame. Someone above said it had an ovalized downtube, which is something I've never seen except for on Columbus Max OR tubesets which this is not. The ovalized seat tube is something Ritchey started doing in the 70s on road bikes and mtbs and got the idea from some CA road builder (the name escapes me right now, Simpson?). Apparently in the 90s lots of tubesets and builders started copying that.


Giant ATX frames from the early 90s had ovalized down tubes, but I think Giant was producing their own tubes.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mechagouki said:


> In this picture of a 1990 Ala Carte the seatclamp is oriented the same and has the similar cable stop:


Well I'll be! :thumbsup:


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## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

This old Salsa on eBay has a good close up photo of an identical seat clamp detail. It also has a Ritchey dropout, although the tube mitering at the dropout is not quite as good as on your mystery frame. It does not have the chainsuck plate mounts.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1990-SALSA-ALA-...ryZ98083QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

disease said:


> This old Salsa on eBay has a good close up photo of an identical seat clamp detail. It also has a Ritchey dropout, although the tube mitering at the dropout is not quite as good as on your mystery frame. It does not have the chainsuck plate mounts.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/1990-SALSA-ALA-...ryZ98083QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


I have seen that frame before and there are certainly similarities, but every Salsa I've seen has downtube gear cable routing (even the current frames have it) and the older Ala cartes have that sleeved seattube. Also, whilst the seatclamp/rear brake stop setup is very similar the clamp is not made of two machined blocks as on my frame.

The person I bought the frame from told me he bought the whole bike simply to get some of the parts which included Cooks cranks and an older Bomber fork, he really couldn't tell me anything about the frame though.

So, a prototype maybe, or a (talented) imitation of a Salsa frame with some (perceived) improvements? (I've never been a fan of downtube cable routing)


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Now this is very similar! guess I jumped to conclusions about salsa cable routing............










Belongs to a member of this forum I believe, hopefully they can tell me more (anyone know whose it is?)


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

A Salsa would have a serial number starting with "SM." The brazing of the dropout would also look like this fish mouth style:


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

mechagouki said:


> The rear mech appears to be a Sunrace 595, ... a notable lack of plastic parts compared to most Shimano/Suntour units.


...as well a notable lack of aluminum parts.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

mechagouki said:


> ... every Salsa I've seen has downtube gear cable routing ...


Top tube cable routing was an option.



mechagouki said:


> So, a prototype maybe, or a (talented) imitation of a Salsa frame with some (perceived) improvements? (I've never been a fan of downtube cable routing)


IMO, I don't see any thing about that frame that would suggest Salsa and certainly don't see it as a talented improvement.


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## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

*How would Sherlock Holmes solve this frame mystery?*

He would start by getting into the right "frame" of mind...

"SHERLOCK HOLMES took his bottle from the corner of the mantelpiece, and his hypodermic syringe from its neat morocco case. With his long, white, nervous fingers he adjusted the delicate needle and rolled back his left shirtcuff. For some little time his eyes rested thoughtfully upon the sinewy forearm and wrist, all dotted and scarred with innumerable puncture-marks. Finally, he thrust the sharp point home, pressed down the tiny piston, and sank back into the velvet-lined armchair with a long sigh of satisfaction.

Three times a day for many months I had witnessed this performance, but custom had not reconciled my mind to it. On the contrary, from day to day I had become more irritable at the sight, and my conscience swelled nightly within me at the thought that I had lacked the courage to protest. Again and again I had registered a vow that I should deliver my soul upon the subject; but there was that in the cool, nonchalant air of my companion which made him the last man with whom one would care to take anything approaching to a liberty. His great powers, his masterly manner, and the experience which I had had of his many extraordinary qualities, all made me diffident and backward in crossing him.

Yet upon that afternoon, whether it was the Beaune which I had taken with my lunch or the additional exasperation produced by the extreme deliberation of his manner, I suddenly felt that I could hold out no longer.

"Which is it to-day," I asked, "morphine or cocaine?"

He raised his eyes languidly from the old black-letter volume which he had opened.

"It is cocaine," he said, "a seven-per-cent solution. Would you care to try it?""

Sherlock Holmes-The Sign Of Four.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

I said a talented imitation with perceived improvements, as in perceived as improvements by the talented individual who built this rather nice frame, doubtless not seen the same way by Ross Schafer or his many fans.



ssmike said:


> Top tube cable routing was an option.
> 
> IMO, I don't see any thing about that frame that would suggest Salsa and certainly don't see it as a talented improvement.


Perhaps you might suggest some other manufacturers who use the seatclamp cable stop then.

IMO the dropouts on the mystery frame are attached in a far neater manner than either of your example pix.



ssmike said:


> ...as well a notable lack of aluminum parts.


 who rattled your cage? the mech (decent or not) is mainly alloy, I assume your comment refers to the front linkage plate which is cut and pressed steel, similar to many Shimano, Suntour, Simplex etc. etc. derailleurs. I simply hadn't seen this mech before and mentioned it in case it was a clue to the bike's origins.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

mechagouki said:


> Perhaps you might suggest some other manufacturers who use the seatclamp cable stop then.


There are hundreds of frame builders who have built frames. To be honest, I would have no suggestions, other than the Brodie, as to who may have made your frame. But you seem intent on identifying it as a Salsa when it isn't. So it won't surprise me when it appears on ebay as a "Salsa" as so many folks who fish for frame information are so fond of doing. And if you have no intention of auctioning it off, then I apologize.



mechagouki said:


> who rattled your cage? the mech (decent or not) is mainly alloy, I assume your comment refers to the front linkage plate which is cut and pressed steel, similar to many Shimano, Suntour, Simplex etc. etc. derailleurs. I simply hadn't seen this mech before and mentioned it in case it was a clue to the bike's origins.


Your mech is actually a high-end Sunrace. However, this means it's also the equivalent to a low-end Shimano/Suntour. Components like this don't usually lend themselves to identifying a particular frame.

You asked for opinions, I gave mine after all the blathering about Salsa this, Salsa that. Sorry if I offended.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

ssmike said:


> There are hundreds of frame builders who have built frames. To be honest, I would have no suggestions, other than the Brodie, as to who may have made your frame. But you seem intent on identifying it as a Salsa when it isn't. So it won't surprise me when it appears on ebay as a "Salsa" as so many folks who fish for frame information are so fond of doing. And if you have no intention of auctioning it off, then I apologize.
> 
> Your mech is actually a high-end Sunrace. However, this means it's also the equivalent to a low-end Shimano/Suntour. Components like this don't usually lend themselves to identifying a particular frame.
> 
> You asked for opinions, I gave mine after all the blathering about Salsa this, Salsa that. Sorry if I offended.


 Sorry if I was a bit aggressive, I actually had no real belief it was a Salsa until I saw the Jellybean frame I posted a pic of. I would never sell any bike part under false pretenses and I'm actually thinking of building this frame into a bike for the Arrowhead Elite endurance race.


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## GonaSovereign (Sep 20, 2004)

It's not a Brodie. They never did seat clusters like that, and it lacks the dropped top tube/extended seat tube that was on every bike. Almost all the seat binders (except the first few) faced forward as well. 
Looks like a pretty decent frame whatever it is.

g


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

My vote is for some small production community-type builder. Interesting mix of fillet brazing and TIG. Some of the finishing, e.g. pin-holes at the rear dropouts, is kind of rough. Features are a patchwork of early 90s frame ideas.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

bushpig said:


> My vote is for some small production community-type builder. Interesting mix of fillet brazing and TIG. Some of the finishing, e.g. pin-holes at the rear dropouts, is kind of rough. Features are a patchwork of early 90s frame ideas.


Having seen your collection of MTB exotica I can safely say you are one person whose knowledge of bicycles I will not argue with, guess I'll strip it, spray it, put my name on the downtube and build it into a rigid endurance bike, build suggestions anyone?


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Lots of Deore DX then if "vintage endurance bike" is the theme.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Incidently the seatpost diameter would have helped narrow it down.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> Incidently the seatpost diameter would have helped narrow it down.


That I can tell you! It's good old 26.8.

I like the idea of the DX build, single 38 ring at the front, 6 speed cluster at the back, one thumbshifter...................


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mechagouki said:


> Having seen your collection of MTB exotica I can safely say you are one person whose knowledge of bicycles I will not argue with, guess I'll strip it, spray it, put my name on the downtube and build it into a rigid endurance bike, build suggestions anyone?


SSMike is his mentor.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Rumpfy said:


> SSMike is his mentor.


Well I guess I owe him an apology then.....................

:blush:


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

SSMike is seriously something of a vintage guru. A lot of knowledge there.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

disease said:


> This old Salsa on eBay has a good close up photo of an identical seat clamp detail.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/1990-SALSA-ALA-...ryZ98083QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Identical? Maybe from 50 yards away...

The Salsa work looks much nicer IMO.


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## timbercomp (Jan 16, 2004)

Go with Rumpfys favorite build kit of all time....Shimano STX, or if you really wanna splash down the big bucks go for STX-RC


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

timbercomp said:


> Go with Rumpfys favorite build kit of all time....Shimano STX, or if you really wanna splash down the big bucks go for STX-RC


I actually really like STX-RC, the cranks in particular.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

mechagouki said:


> I actually really like STX-RC, the cranks in particular.


we are not surprised 

Carsten


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Carsten said:


> we are not surprised
> 
> Carsten


:lol:


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

bushpig said:


> SSMike is seriously something of a vintage guru. A lot of knowledge there.


:blush: But I still don't know squat about Mouldens or Gilmours. What is it about the 'ou' thing anyway


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

ssmike said:


> :blush: But I still don't know squat about Mouldens or Gilmours. What is it about the 'ou' thing anyway


I know one guy with a Moulden and one guy with a Gilmour....both jerks. Go figure.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

timbercomp said:


> Go with Rumpfys favorite build kit of all time....Shimano STX, or if you really wanna splash down the big bucks go for STX-RC


You son-of-a-b!tch.


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Rumpfy said:


> You son-of-a-b!tch.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> I know one guy with a Moulden and one guy with a Gilmour....both jerks. Go figure.


what is a Moulden? (seems like Ive asked that before)

Gilmour, arent those frames made for women?


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Huge Bump! 

I now have a frame number: 042095 (presumably date of manufacture), stamped around the drive-side edge of the BB shell. And as may have mentioned elsewhere, rear end is fillet brazed, headtube is TIGed on.

Anyone have any idea?


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Hmm interesting. I think it will stay a mystery.. looks like a hobbiest build to me, or maybe a pro who wasn't well known or around long. Not a Salsa or Brodie, although Brodie did mix brazing/tig quite often.
As stated Salsa did use use those drops, but the treatment was way different. Salsa also offered choice of routing. Never seen that clamp before, but looks like the stop is part of it so was likely available to all builders. Can't think of any Konas or Rockys that would have looked like that.

-Schmitty-


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Def. not a Salsa but you knew that already.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

a down tube ovalized at the head tube and bb... not exclusive to columbus. tange had those.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

mechagouki said:


> I actually really like STX-RC, the cranks in particular.


becuase they are heavy? or is the chrome?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

i think that's a mountain bike.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Builders can easily make round tubes into ovalized tubes, so I'm not sure that would lend much of a clue as to tubeset or builder. The mix of tig and brazing seems to be the biggest clue.

-Schmitty-


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Where are the front cable stops mounted? Are the vent holes in the BB shell really large? How do the welds look from inside the head and seat tube? Would A-rod or Manny ride it?


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## WTB-rider (Jul 25, 2004)

IF52 said:


> Would A-rod or Manny ride it?


I think A-Rod might ride Manny given the chance.


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

Off-Road toad? 

No chainstay bridge makes me lean towards a small builder....

Seems like a small shop could easliy make a "one off" for an employee.

Many would ride it if it had 3 wheels. A-Rod will ride it after his ex wife takes him to the cleaners.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

HA! Good ones!


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

KDXdog said:


> Manny would ride it if it had 3 wheels.


Ha-ha, I've been trying for months to find those pictures. (not the recent tricycle episode) That's what the fat tub gets for showing up to spring training out of shape. He was still with the tribe then right?


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Go Giants!


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

I still want to see more details of that frame based on my earlier questions.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

KDXdog said:


> Off-Road toad?
> 
> No chainstay bridge makes me lean towards a small builder....
> 
> ...


Nah, not a Toad.

Any decals under the paint? Looks like a repaint.

-Schmitty-


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

IF52 said:


> Where are the front cable stops mounted? Are the vent holes in the BB shell really large? How do the welds look from inside the head and seat tube?


New pix as requested:

Front stops









Inside BB shell









Inside head tube









Frame from rear









Frame number









Seat binder









Manny or A-Rod? Probably neither - not enough class; ShamWOW guy though maybe.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Hmm, kind of ruled out my guess. The back end looks a lot like my wifes 180 Proof, but the welds look way less heavy handed and the stops are different. I also didn't expect the unvented tubes, other then the BB. Maybe not Manny, but perhaps Albert Belle


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## haaki (Sep 15, 2008)

*those TT guides*

are/were quite common. Was the 'only' method for routing cables for cx bikes long before the advent of MTB


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## bigkraut (Mar 20, 2009)

ssmike said:


> :blush: But I still don't know squat about Mouldens or Gilmours. What is it about the 'ou' thing anyway


It is not a Moulden, Moulden seat clamps faced sideways to the left.


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## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

I have those chainsuck bolt holes on the bottom of my '00 Fisher frame, too. Never knew what they were for until I asked on here recently.










BTW, *mechagouki*, will you post pics of that frame once it's painted?


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## da'HOOV (Jan 3, 2009)

bigkraut said:


> It is not a Moulden, Moulden seat clamps faced sideways to the left.


If you mean on the side of the seattube...incorrecto 

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=439676&highlight=moulden


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

It had "Dirt Devil Brothers" on the down tube and "Brownstein" on the top tube in rub-down vinyl lettering at one time - you can still just about make this out where the stickers were removed and then the frame painted without stripping it. I've googled both names to death in the hope of maybe finding the original owner (and returning the frame if it turns out to have been stolen ), no luck at all on that front. I considered the Off Road Toad option for a while until I actually saw some pictures of a mid 1990s toad. It is a very light frame though. I'll definitely post pix if I ever get around to painting it.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

How about Serotta? The T-max had the brake housing stop on the seat clamp and they would have mixed brazing and tig welding if requested. They used columbus tubing exclusively in 1991. Dirt Devil Brothers could be a bike store name, perhaps a house brand bike?


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