# RC-4 vs.Double Barrel



## Rubberneck Goose (Aug 24, 2008)

So, I'm building up my new bike. Choosing rear suspension. Can anyone give me some advice on the Cane Creek Double Barrel vs. the new Fox RC-4? I'm putting it on a 2010 Knolly Del-T.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

The Cane Creek will be custom tuned for your weight and frame. The Fox comes in either 1 or 3 tunes, not sure.
What about buying a blown Fox Vanilla for cheap and sending it to Push for their MX tune?


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

I'm pretty sure cane creek doesn't do custom valving either, but the adjuster range is fine tunable to dial it in for most bikes if you have the patience.


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## daisycutter (Sep 18, 2005)

The Cane creek is the better shock but costs more.


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

Lelandjt said:


> The Cane Creek will be custom tuned for your weight and frame. The Fox comes in either 1 or 3 tunes, not sure.
> What about buying a blown Fox Vanilla for cheap and sending it to Push for their MX tune?


The double barrel is NOT custom tuned, the huge range of adjustments allows you to fine tune it for any bike but the IH Sunday. It is a better shock than the RC4


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

I think it is going to be tough to find people who have ridden both. 

The only complaints I have seen with the RC4 are based on the suspension carrying a bit of "effective" preload due to the shaft diameter or something of the sort.

I am a bit of a CCDB fan, so I will just say that having talked with Malcolm several times and coming from a DHX, I was blown away by the level of service and quality of product (ie: performance).


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## 4JawChuck (Dec 1, 2008)

A shock absorber is a shock absorber. The double barrel is completely externally tunable, the RC4 requires disassembly to adjust some aspects of its performance but the majority of what you need to adjust is external.

If you have a pile of dough laying around and like spending a lot of time piddling with knobs to get exactly what you want only to have to do the same again on a different track/course get the double barrel, eventually you will get tired of playing with it and settle on a general tune that is suitable for everything you ride...which is exactly what you get with a stock out of the box RC4.

Assuming of course you get a FOX shock properly set up for your bike in the first place. Then there is parts availability and durability to think of which I think FOX has a lock on since they have been in the market for so long.

I do think the double barrel may hold its value better since there are so few out there and everyone likes shiny knobs and things, if it was my money I would get a properly setup up RC4 from Fox and just ride the damn bike and leave the knobs to the polishers.

Sure is pretty though.:arf:


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

4JawChuck said:


> If you have a pile of dough laying around and like spending a lot of time piddling with knobs to get exactly what you want only to have to do the same again on a different track/course get the double barrel, eventually you will get tired of playing with it and settle on a general tune that is suitable for everything you ride...which is exactly what you get with a stock out of the box RC4.


Are you serious?

I used to mess with my DHX a helluva lot more than I do with my CCDB because it works better.

I will say that trails are different enough here in central Tejas that changing trails OFTEN warrants changing suspension setup. NO MATTER WHAT SHOCK...they are all adjustable...


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Honestly....this question shouldn't be asked...

Without a doubt I would get the Crane Creek.....Fox needs to step up to the plate in small bump sensitivity, sticky mid-stoke, and harshness on hits


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

Double Barrel has more going for it than just the adjustment range. The twin tube design is a completely different beast compared to the monotube shocks like the RC4. You get less air spring preloading, more oil flow, no cavitation, less stiction, etc. 

I tried an Rc4 and an Elka. Both have that air spring preload effect that I don't like.

Also, the Double Barrel has been redesigned to work on bikes with low leverages like the Sunday.


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## vikingboy (Nov 5, 2008)

4JawChuck said:


> A shock absorber is a shock absorber. <snip>


speechless. If that was the case then the Fox wouldnt be so plain average along side the CCDB...and its not just shiny twiddly knobs that make a difference.....its the quality of the damping.
I so wish CC & Ohlins would make a fork because it would move the market forward significantly for the current Fox/RS stuff.


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## Dominator13 (Aug 31, 2006)

*Ask Noel!*



Rubberneck Goose said:


> I'm putting it on a 2010 Knolly Del-T.


He rides with a CCDB but I'm sure he'll give you an unbiased opinion. Either way, you are starting with the correct foundation!


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## Cantil3v3r (Jan 14, 2009)

Dominator13 said:


> He rides with a CCDB but I'm sure he'll give you an unbiased opinion. Either way, you are starting with the correct foundation!


spoken like a proud father of a Knolly!


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## ustemuf (Oct 12, 2009)

I have a CCDB on my new build... is it worth it? Yes, if you know how to adjust your suspension and you actually plan on doing it. The range of adjustability and ability to fine tune every aspect of the shock made it a no brainer for me.

If you're not adept to tuning suspension and don't plan on spending the time to tinker with your settings for different conditions, you're probably better off saving a lot of money and getting neither the CCDB or RC4. Unless you have your own mechanic who will help you out.

If you do want to learn how suspension works, and you are willing to invest the time to learn, test / trial, and adjust your shock the CCDB is the way to roll. I come from racing sportbikes on the track and I am familiar with the Ohlins TTX technology, so when I started mountain biking 5-6 months ago it was an easy choice between these two shocks.


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

About the only caveat I would say that comes with the CCDB is that it is very easy to tune the shock to ride horribly... It is definitely not a shock for a beginner rider. When set up properly they are generally amazing, but all those knobs can make that proper setup a bit hard unless you know what you're doing.

The same of course is true with the RC4... the dual stage compression can be adjusted to feel great or bad depending on how knowledgeable you are. I am naturally biased more to the rc4... but that is because I own one and have a relatively good concept on how to sey up a shock.

CCDB is pricey, but if you know what you're doing and if it has a good application with your bike it's the way to go.


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

Cost of a DB wasn't that bad with the Go-Ride.com 10% discount. Also take into account that the $650 also includes the coil spring and mounting hardware. Combine all of that and you are not far from the full price of an RC4+spring. 

Expensive parts are worth the money even if they don't make your bike ride better. Anything to get you stoked to ride is worth the money.


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## MaxBS (Mar 30, 2008)

What has to be said is that the RC4 is NOT the same as the old DHX 5.0 and while were all entitled to our opinions ofcourse, SMT is so incredibly bias that his views are advice is pathetic.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

MaxBS said:


> What has to be said is that the RC4 is NOT the same as the old DHX 5.0 and while were all entitled to our opinions ofcourse, SMT is so incredibly bias that his views are advice is pathetic.


actually I rode a RC4 on a Intense 951 for 2 months....the shock sucked compared to a double barrell...we tuned it and everything...maybe it isn't fair because the 951 ramps up quick...but that shock was harsher then my dhx5.0....*Seriously the bike felt like a hardtail..the RC4 sucked that bad*

How is it biased when I rode a Vallilla R, DHX 5.0, and RC4 for a total time of over 5 years and I recommend a Swinger 6 over all those shocks and I don't like Manitou??

So either you are dumb or have a biased opinion. Anybody that thinks a RC4 is in the same league as a Double Barrel has no sense at all....the DB is the gold standard period.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2010)

CCDB hands down. I used to tweak my setup and have to worry about air almost every ride along with all the other crap that comes with crap dampers until I got my CCDB.

Now I just grab my bike and go ride and every time, the shock just works. No noticeable feedback, input, harshness or all the other things you get used to experiencing with Fox/Zoke/Manipoo, it just keeps the wheel planted to the ground and does its thing.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2010)

Oh, and for anyone thinking the CCDB is a "grip" of cash more expensive than the RC4 needs to check pricing. CCDB retails for $650 and the RC4 retails for $600. (Both without coils.)


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## Pslide (Jul 3, 2006)

I'm going to have to agree with what 4jawchuck said to a certain degree, despite it being unpopular. And I own and have ridden both shocks back to back. I would say that SMT is right in that the RC4 isn't as uber sensitive as the CCDB, BUT I doubt it would translate into faster times on the track.

The other thing is that if you want to try the overdamped compression set-up which some people prefer, you need to go with the CCDB. It might feel good at first, but I've gone back to a more conventional setup because I don't like how it deadens the response of the bike to weight shifts. So now my CCDB setup is similar to what the RC4 delivers.

If you will always be wondering what you're missing if you don't have a CCDB, then there's only one way to find out...spend the cash.


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## norbar (Jun 5, 2007)

boogenman said:


> The double barrel is NOT custom tuned, the huge range of adjustments allows you to fine tune it for any bike but the IH Sunday. It is a better shock than the RC4


Your info is sooo 2009.


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

sixsixtysix said:


> Oh, and for anyone thinking the CCDB is a "grip" of cash more expensive than the RC4 needs to check pricing. CCDB retails for $650 and the RC4 retails for $600. (Both without coils.)


Partially true. CCDB $650 includes the price of an included steel spring.

In that case, the RC4 would actually come out to the exact same price if you had to buy a spring, which everyone would have to do due to the air spring.

$600 for an RC4? WTF is Fox smoking? They really have self-inflated opinions of how great their product really is. :nono:

Schit. Just drop the $450 and buy an Elka. Better performance on the compression stroke. Easily the best feeling compression adjusters/system I've ever tried in a rear shock.

It used to be that Fox anything was the best and worth the money. Times have changed, and their prices have not.


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

MaxBS said:


> What has to be said is that the RC4 is NOT the same as the old DHX 5.0 and while were all entitled to our opinions ofcourse, SMT is so incredibly bias that his views are advice is pathetic.


SMT is bias about zokes not Cane Creek. Fox makes good forks, thier shocks are junk for the most part.


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

norbar said:


> Your info is sooo 2009.


I never had a chance to fall off the Sunday band wagon since I never got on it. :thumbsup:

Should have known better since I am sending my CCDB in for the upgrade:madman:


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

Holding my freshly shipped DB right now.    :devil:

By looks alone, this shock blows the doors off the RC4.  Pretty freakishly heavy though...


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2010)

YoPawn said:


> Partially true. CCDB $650 includes the price of an included steel spring.
> 
> In that case, the RC4 would actually come out to the exact same price if you had to buy a spring, which everyone would have to do due to the air spring.
> 
> ...


Cane Creek charges $25 for their steel coil actually. List price is $648 for the damper unit alone. But at that point, $25 is a drop in the bucket.

And yes, $600 for a Fox shock is outrageous.

Also, for anyone not familiar with certain nuances of shock design, look at the size of the damper shaft on both the RC4 and the CCDB. The RC4 is about 1/2" in diameter, the CCDB is about the size of a #2 pencil. Why is that? Well, for one, the CCDB uses an orbital bearing eyelet system instead of bushings, meaning I can literally grab the shock and it rotates on its mounts which eliminates and binding or stress to the shock induced from frame flex. Fox still uses bushings, which only move 1 way, and in order to not have the shaft bend, or wear the seals etc etc, they have to use that monster damper shaft which is where people are saying it feels "sticky".

There are a bunch of other differences with oil flow path and things that most people will never understand about suspension units, but all of them add up to the CCDB being one of the best shocks available for a bike.


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## Pau11y (Oct 15, 2004)

Screw them all. Throw down for an Avy 
If you don't have the coin, hop on pinkbike and find yourself a clapped out 5th and send that to Craig @ Avy. It WILL be a custom tune after he's dome with it, AND it'll be half the price of either of you posted choices.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2010)

YoPawn said:


> Holding my freshly shipped DB right now.    :devil:
> 
> By looks alone, this shock blows the doors off the RC4.  Pretty freakishly heavy though...


It is freakishly heavy. If you want to see the other freakish thing it does, mount it up and go bounce around your driveway for a few minutes and then touch the piggyback


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## Pslide (Jul 3, 2006)

sixsixtysix said:


> Also, for anyone not familiar with certain nuances of shock design, look at the size of the damper shaft on both the RC4 and the CCDB. The RC4 is about 1/2" in diameter, the CCDB is about the size of a #2 pencil. Why is that? Well, for one, the CCDB uses an orbital bearing eyelet system instead of bushings, meaning I can literally grab the shock and it rotates on its mounts which eliminates and binding or stress to the shock induced from frame flex. Fox still uses bushings, which only move 1 way, and in order to not have the shaft bend, or wear the seals etc etc, they have to use that monster damper shaft which is where people are saying it feels "sticky".


The new CCDB has gone to conventional mounting bushings. No more spherical bushings I'm afraid.

So what was that you were saying about the CCDB damper shaft size again? :eekster:


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

*CCDB is poo*

I have one... and it lasted all of 4 weeks

The glide bushing is f*ckeddddddddd and I blame the pinner ass shock shaft. What's even better is that Cane Creek don't want to warranty it and want $150 for a rebuild!

My DHX's were $40 to rebuild so it's like hmmmmmmm what would I rather have? Well I would have a RC4.

If anyone is in the market for a 10.5 x 3.5 Double Barrel... lemme know I want to get rid of this crap


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

sixsixtysix said:


> Cane Creek charges $25 for their steel coil actually. List price is $648 for the damper unit alone. But at that point, $25 is a drop in the bucket.
> 
> And yes, $600 for a Fox shock is outrageous.
> 
> ...


So that is why my invoice shows $650 and came with a spring? Either I got a deal for being such a stud, or they changed their pricing.

Regardless, the difference isn't enough to justify the RC4 unless someone needs to have extra progression.

My shock did not come with spherical bearings though. Seems like the eyelets are the same size as my other standard shocks. Did CC change the design or something? I thought they were much larger. If it is the 1/2 inch sizing then that's good! We can use the enduro needle bearings with it.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

4JawChuck said:


> A shock absorber is a shock absorber.


Wha?


4JawChuck said:


> If you have a pile of dough laying around and like spending a lot of time piddling with knobs to get exactly what you want only to have to do the same again on a different track/course get the double barrel, eventually you will get tired of playing with it and settle on a general tune that is suitable for everything you ride...which is exactly what you get with a stock out of the box RC4.
> 
> I do think the double barrel may hold its value better since there are so few out there and everyone likes shiny knobs and things, if it was my money I would get a properly setup up RC4 from Fox and just ride the damn bike and leave the knobs to the polishers.


Having owned two CCDB dampers, this makes me giggle. The principle behind all the adjustments is to get that sweet spot. Does it take time? Not as long as you'd think. On the three separate bikes I've used them on, I was able to find a tune that felt great for my style of riding in a few runs.

Then I stopped "piddling with knobs..."


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

Uncle Cliffy said:


> Wha?
> 
> Having owned two CCDB dampers, this makes me giggle. The principle behind all the adjustments is to get that sweet spot. Does it take time? Not as long as you'd think. On the three separate bikes I've used them on, I was able to find a tune that felt great for my style of riding in a few runs.
> 
> Then I stopped "piddling with knobs..."


Knobs you turn all the time are a bandaid for a crappy damper (like lockout switches). Thanks for setting those suckers and forgetting them!


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

Iggz said:


> I have one... and it lasted all of 4 weeks
> 
> The glide bushing is f*ckeddddddddd and I blame the pinner ass shock shaft. What's even better is that Cane Creek don't want to warranty it and want $150 for a rebuild!
> 
> ...


3.5 inches of stroke is a bit much for a small shaft.

(that's the OPPOSITE of what SHE said!)


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## giantsaam (Dec 10, 2006)

OK so anyone bashing on the rc4 probably has never ridden one tuned to them and I will call you on it. I have ridden both the rc4 and the cane creek and when tuned right I like them each for different reasons. The ccdb is a little smother in the midstroke and allows you to sink into your travel a little easier. Where the rc4 because of its massive volume wants to ride higher in its travel I actually think it tracks the rougher ground better because of this.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

K, that is one vote for the RC4, and 34 for the CCDB.

I know you are looking at OEM options to go w your 2010 DT and of the OEM options that Knolly has I would opt for the CCDB.

Only other options I would consider an "upgrade" (or alternate) would be an Elka or an Avy - but these are not OEM options.


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## brocelif (Oct 28, 2006)

*ccdb rc4*

I have ridden both(and dhx 5,revox, vivid,etc.). I think the rc4 is in the same ballpark as the ccdb. I don't think people want to accept that, because the db is so hyped.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2010)

YoPawn said:


> So that is why my invoice shows $650 and came with a spring? Either I got a deal for being such a stud, or they changed their pricing.
> 
> Regardless, the difference isn't enough to justify the RC4 unless someone needs to have extra progression.
> 
> My shock did not come with spherical bearings though. Seems like the eyelets are the same size as my other standard shocks. Did CC change the design or something? I thought they were much larger. If it is the 1/2 inch sizing then that's good! We can use the enduro needle bearings with it.


Mount it up and give it a pull side to side. Mine is a 2010, just got it a few months ago.

As for pricing, I am going by what MSRP is, what people pay is totally different usually, especially now that shops can get the CCDB through BTI.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2010)

Oh yeah, here's your answer straight from CC.

"The Double Barrel comes with hardware to specifically fit your bike. Generally, for a bike with a spacer bushing requirement over 1" wide we use a DU type bushing. For bikes under 1" wide such as the common 22mm x 8mm spacing we use spherical bearings in the shock's eyelet."

Mine is 22.2mm hardware.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

I'll reserve judgement on the RC4 until I try one. (Probably next month.) 

I sure do hate shock pumps though... That's a nice benefit of my CCDB.


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

Uncle Cliffy said:


> I sure do hate shock pumps though... That's a nice benefit of my CCDB.


Nice point...actually reminded me that I lent mine to a buddy about 8 months ago!


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

*comparing literature*

So I went back and read the DHX RC4 manual...it reads like a 101: Intro to Setting Up Your New Suspension

The CCDB manual is more a master's in fluid dynamics. The only instructions are ride it like we shipped it, if you don't love it, change settings slowly using what you have learned.


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## Rubberneck Goose (Aug 24, 2008)

*My Opinion...*

So, thanks everybody for contributing there two cents. It has been a long and arduous struggle to decide between the two. I personally have ridden the double barrel but not the RC-4. The cash difference isn't that significant and I plan on taking as long as I need to build my bike to its fullest potential, even if that means saving for an extra month or two.

In the long run, I will probably go with CCDB, as at least I know what to expect, although I would love to ride the RC-4 before deciding. I would be curious to know what people think of titanium coils vs stock steel coils (aside from weight).


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## baxterbike (Apr 2, 2009)

you can't argue that the CCDB has more oil flow, less stiction, and far far more adjustability to end user.

RC4 is a tad more foolproof, especially if it comes OEM.

RE: Ti springs. The best opinion I have seen on this matter came from Dave Weagle.... he punched his numbers and came to the conclusion that a Ti spring increases sensitivity by the same amount as removing a (18t? I forget) cog from your rear cassette. So performance benefit isn't really appreciable.

However, Ti springs WILL save weight, look bling, transfer between more bikes (Read: obtainium), and (theoretically, I don't think anyone actually reaches the limit...) last longer.

A cool upgrade for max performance is the enduro needle bearing shock hardware, and/or the obtainium needle bearing shock collar. Both drastically change the performance of your damping unit for far less bling.

If you want to make the e-monkeys ruin their keyboards, buy a CCDB with Ti spring, needle collar, and spherical bushings/needle hardware. SKEET SKEET


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## giantsaam (Dec 10, 2006)

CharacterZero said:


> Nice point...actually reminded me that I lent mine to a buddy about 8 months ago!


there is an article in last months Decline I think they stated it is a nitrogen fill from the factory and not to mess with it unless you fill it with nitrogen.


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

giantsaam said:


> there is an article in last months Decline I think they stated it is a nitrogen fill from the factory and not to mess with it unless you fill it with nitrogen.


I don't need it...running a Lyrik and CCDB.

Even my DHX didn't need it, as it was PUSH'd and they tell you where to set it.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2010)

baxterbike said:


> A cool upgrade for max performance is the enduro needle bearing shock hardware, and/or the obtainium needle bearing shock collar. Both drastically change the performance of your damping unit for far less bling.


Can't run the Obtanium collar on the CCDB, they even went to the lengths of putting a sleeve over the shock body so you can't thread on the collar for 2010.


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## KavuRider (Sep 22, 2004)

sixsixtysix said:


> Can't run the Obtanium collar on the CCDB, they even went to the lengths of putting a sleeve over the shock body so you can't thread on the collar for 2010.


That's dumb, what is the reasoning?


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

KavuRider said:


> That's dumb, what is the reasoning?


Money? I bet they sell something comparable....


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## Christiaan (Jun 23, 2004)

KavuRider said:


> That's dumb, what is the reasoning?


Not true, the sleeve is on the shock to prevent spring rub on the body, if you heat the sleeve with a hair dryer, you cna Slide it of, fit the Obtanium collar, and then refit the sleeve, no rocket science needed


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

Christiaan said:


> Not true, the sleeve is on the shock to prevent spring rub on the body, if you heat the sleeve with a hair dryer, you cna Slide it of, fit the Obtanium collar, and then refit the sleeve, no rocket science needed


Good tip.


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

Christiaan said:


> Not true, the sleeve is on the shock to prevent spring rub on the body, if you heat the sleeve with a hair dryer, you cna Slide it of, fit the Obtanium collar, and then refit the sleeve, no rocket science needed


Yep :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2010)

Christiaan said:


> Not true, the sleeve is on the shock to prevent spring rub on the body, if you heat the sleeve with a hair dryer, you cna Slide it of, fit the Obtanium collar, and then refit the sleeve, no rocket science needed


Yeah, good tip. I was under the impression that CC didn't want people running those adapters.


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## Pslide (Jul 3, 2006)

sixsixtysix said:


> Yeah, good tip. I was under the impression that CC didn't want people running those adapters.


Speaking with Luis at K-9, who deals with both CC and Obtanium, he was surprised to find the needle bearing collar didn't fit and was going to inform Obtanium - I think it was a mistake on their part in not making the ID big enough to accommodate the rub guard.

As discussed in another thread, you can simply cut the rub guard off the shock body and run the collar.


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

Got a lot of night ride tuning with my DB last night at the Colonnade bike park.   

Best place in the world to tune a shock. Got it dialed pretty good in 1 hour. 

This thing blows the doors off the Elka shocks and anything else I've tried before, including some brief runs on a properly setup RC4. AND the DU bushings are sticky as hell right now. 

Only had to tune it out 1/2 turns from stock.  Spring rate they gave me is dead mutha fruckin on. Never had a coil bike this balanced out front to rear. 

Shock plays great with the Lyrik DH coil. 

Mine is a 2.25 stroke and does not seem to have much lateral flex at all. 


I think you are just getting a better piece of engineering and execution out of the Double Barrel. Everything is just machined to perfection, and it OPENS BOTTLES OF BEER FOR YOU! NO SCHIT!  

Nothing beats pure coil and oil baby.


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

YoPawn said:


> Only had to tune it out 1/2 turns from stock.  Spring rate they gave me is dead mutha fruckin on. Never had a coil bike this balanced out front to rear.
> 
> Shock plays great with the Lyrik DH coil.


Great stoke...and that last line makes me want to at least de-FG my Lyrik, as the lyrik doesn't keep up in the small bump compliance in current form.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2010)

YoPawn said:


> Only had to tune it out 1/2 turns from stock.  Spring rate they gave me is dead mutha fruckin on. Never had a coil bike this balanced out front to rear.


Mine was the same way, 1/4 to 1/2 turn on each knob from where they tuned it and it was spot on.:thumbsup:


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## feanaro (Aug 8, 2006)

I have riden both. When I purchased my 951, I didnt even bother riding it wit the RC4 that came on it. Went straight to the CCDB. Now with a Ti spring it is almost a full pound lighter. CCDB is a far superior shock!


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## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

*Wow - how did I miss this thread???!!!*

Very cool thread and it is great to see a lot of people talking about what are currently the top range of coil shocks on the market!

As I'm sure the OP (Rubberneck Goose) knows, we will be selling several rear shocks OEM with the new Delirium frame: currently, we're listing the Rockshox Vivid 5.1, Fox' DHX 5.0 Air and DHC RC4 Coil, and the Cane Creek Double Barrel. We put a lot of thought into which products we carry OEM spec on and we try and pick a group of product that represents great value across a range of prices and - of course - matches the performance of our frames!

I don't want to get into the politics of each brand / model of shock that we spec, nor why we don't spec your favourite brand / model (we simply can't because there are too many manufacturers / models available). I also won't state which rear shock I think is the "best" because if there was only one "best rear shock", then we would only need to spec one rear shock on each frame. The truth is that the Delirium is an _extremely_ versatile frame and each customer will have a different idea on what their ideal build is. In some cases, this will change over time as well, as the customer becomes more familiar and comfortable with the Delirium - and the Delirium increases their confidence level while riding 

Additionally, this being the DH / FR forum, I know that the audience here is probably a little more than biased towards ultra high end coil shocks (just like we are at Knolly since the North Shore is our backyard and Whistler Bike Park is only an hour and a half away!). However, it would probably be interesting for many of you to know that the Fox DHX 5.0 Air has been our top selling shock with the previous generation Delirium T frame.

Here is a brief overview why we've chosen each shock - I'm not going to go into tons of detail on-line because in the end it's really the customer's choice and they can work with their dealer - and us if necessary - to figure out which rear shock is the best choice for them.

*Rockshox Vivid 5.1 Coil*: this shock is an absolutely great value: for the price, there is simply no other coil shock on the market that can compete with it performance wise. If you're on a bit of a budget - or want a shock that is fairly simple to set up and will very work well in all situations, then this is it. The addition of both high and low speed rebound adjusters provides fine tuning options as well. Do not think of the Vivid as a value shock - instead think of it as a top performance tier shock available at a very good price.

*Fox DHX 5.0 Air*: this shock is our biggest seller with Delirium framesets. Customers choosing this shock are usually a little more concerned with overall bike weight as this shock is obviously lighter than any coil shock. Bottom out resistance is easily tunable, but the mid stroke support is a bit weak compared to coil sprung shocks. However, I can quite confidently say that the Delirium's progression curve brings out the best of the DHX 5.0 Air. The easy to access Propedal lever increases the low speed compression damping stiffening up the frame's suspension for extended pedaling / climbing. Additionally, this shock has shown extremely good reliability - even for an air shock - since 2007.

*Fox DHX RC4 Coil*: obviously Fox' flag ship coil shock was completely redesigned for the 2010 model year. Some of the most noticeable changes are: the larger shaft (from 0.50" to 0.625" dia. I think which is also the reason for the increased reservoir volume) to push more oil through the compression damping circuit, separate low and high speed compression adjustment knobs for improved tuning options, and new valving. This shock modernizes the venerable DHX coil series of shocks, which really has to be one of the most successful suspension products ever in the MTB market. This is a great choice for the customer that wants a reasonably easy to tune shock that works well in all situations, included extended pedaling, big hits and complicated terrain. This shock has had in general excellent reliability over the years and servicing is available around the world through Fox' extensive distribution network.

*Cane Creek Double Barrel*: this is our high end coil shock choice on many of our frames. As many posters have mentioned, the shock is currently pretty much unique on the market with its twin tube damping (circular oil paths). The shock features both high and low speed compression and rebound circuits, allowing for a very wide range of tuning options. While it IS possible to tune the CCDB to work poorly with pretty much any frame if you're not careful, most Knolly customers will find that a CCDB shipped with their Knolly frame will need only minor adjustments to achieve the best tune for their bike. The tuning process for this shock is somewhat iterative, so you'll want to know what you're doing instead of blindly guessing when turning knobs, but it's not that hard to figure out and their manual explains things very clearly (you just might have to read it more than once to _really_ understand it. Set up properly, this shock just does pretty much everything right all of the time: it can be tuned to pedal extremely well, be able to handle big hits and to deal with complicated terrain / multiple hits easily. You just find the balance that you want and you're good to go!

Shock Weights: actually the dampers (without springs) from all three coil shocks that we spec are quite close in weight - it's usually the steel springs that make a larger difference in the overall weight of the shock (i.e. we weighed a CCDB damper next to an RC4 damper last week and the difference was only about 20g). Also different rate springs weigh different amounts - sometimes not what you would think either (occasionally a specific model / length spring might weigh more in a lighter spring rate than the next spring rate up), although in general heavier rate springs weigh more than lighter rate springs. Ti springs are expensive, but will bring the weight of all of these shocks closer together and typically drop about 150 - 250 grams (very approximately) off of the weight of a shock. My personal opinion is that the benefit of a Ti spring is to:

a) drop weight off of a bike,
b) look cool 

There are arguments as to whether they also lead to noticeable improvements in suspension feel (for all sorts of reasons: less "sprung" weight, better fatigue life, higher quality springs, etc...) but I think a fair expectation would be the two reasons above - anything beyond that is gravy. However, I would STRONGLY recommend purchasing a steel spring first while you get your shock set up and dialed (especially with the CCDB, since it's easy to overdamp the shock to compensate for it being under sprung), and then purchase the much more expensive Ti spring afterward once you are sure of the spring rate that you'll need.

I hope that helps the OP! If any moderators think that this post belongs in the Knolly Forum, then please feel free to move it (and provide a link to it from this thread).

Cheers!


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## daisycutter (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks noel. well done and very informative. Do not move this post.


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## Rubberneck Goose (Aug 24, 2008)

*Insightful and well written...Thanks!*

Noel, thanks man! Rubberneck Goose highly appreciates your input and information. It speaks for your company and your thoughtfulness for your customers to take the time to lay out the details relating to the OEM shock options.

I personally am looking to build up my frame to be uuber burly. I called my local bike shop yesterday and specified a Cane Creek Double Barrel for the back. I'm planning on putting the mythical and elusive (not unlike the B.C. sasquatch) FOX 180mm single crown on the front when availalble. Running a through axle rear, and ultimately pimping the H.E. Double Hockey Sticks out of the component package.

With my lofty and burly building goals in mind and my prior experience riding the Cane Creek Double Barrel, I ended up choosing the shock I have the most experience with. However, as you mentioned there is a rear shock for every season and every riding style, so my choice doesn't equate to the gold standard.

Once again Noel, Rubberneck Goose thanks you for your input. For everyone else reading this forum, this is the reason you should buy Knolly, apart from the fact that this man's bike designs ride like a wet dream come true!


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## glitz (Jan 27, 2010)

When are RC4's supposed to start being equipped as OEM? I first saw them in late 2008, and they're still not out there. Worse yet, Avy and Elkas are outright bargains compared to the RC4 and CCDB, not toe mention getting a DHX and having the PUSH-Avy Race mod.


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## mjsca07 (Dec 30, 2005)

YoPawn said:


> Cost of a DB wasn't that bad with the Go-Ride.com 10% discount. Also take into account that the $650 also includes the coil spring and mounting hardware. Combine all of that and you are not far from the full price of an RC4+spring.
> 
> Expensive parts are worth the money even if they don't make your bike ride better. Anything to get you stoked to ride is worth the money.


I wish I made your money. I have a house, bills, and a kid on the way so you know I'm not a big spender. I want so many parts for each bike, but if it's not going to make my bike that much better, I ride with what I have until it breaks.


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## Whistgnar (Jan 24, 2010)

YoPawn said:


> Holding my freshly shipped DB right now.    :devil:
> 
> By looks alone, this shock blows the doors off the RC4.  Pretty freakishly heavy though...


Actually its not that bad, mine is 9.5-3 with a 450 steel coil and it sits at 1100g. the shock body of the CCDB itself comes in at 25g over the rc4 (ccdb - 476g) (RC4 - 451g)

Its also lighter than the ROCO that comes in at 563g. So its actually not that bad weight wise in comparison to other shocks.


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## The_Pitbull (Nov 13, 2008)

glitz said:


> When are RC4's supposed to start being equipped as OEM? I first saw them in late 2008, and they're still not out there. .


my 2010 Scott Voltage FR10 has an RC4 out of the box


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## glitz (Jan 27, 2010)

And how is it? I'm still seeing DHX's out there, on many expensive frames, too. Few to no RC4's.


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## mjw (Feb 26, 2007)

Pslide said:


> The new CCDB has gone to conventional mounting bushings. No more spherical bushings I'm afraid.


Not True at all. I JUST got my FOURTH CCDB, picked it up from the post office this week.

Any mounting with 8mm axel and with a mounting with less than 1" should still come with spheical bushings.

My Flatline uses one in the back. I am thinking about doing the enduroforkseals.com needle bearing bushing in the front.


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