# Delorme PN-20



## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

Anyone use one for MTB? Pros/cons? The bike mount for the unit is fugly, and it looks like the unit is susceptible in certain crashes.

I'm seriously considering the unit. It looks perfect for lots of applications, including my line of work. The ability to integrate satellite imagery and raster images is way cool. Did I mention that it seems like alot of unit for the price? Plus, you get the XMap software for 1/2 price and you can register paper maps, effectively allowing you to use any map within the GPS unit.

The software looks and reportedly is a bit clunky and non-intuitive, but with time I'm sure it could become second nature.

So, anyone out there gonna talk me outta this purchase?


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## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

Bump.

Hey, I've searched the forums and found only one thread discussing the PN-20, and that was from six months ago. I figured that some people may have had a bit more time to work out the bugs and form an informative opinion.


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## bebrianbike (Feb 5, 2008)

*The DeLorme PN-20 rocks*

Hey Imnop, I use a DeLorme PN-20 for MTBing and I love it. :thumbsup: The Topo USA software that comes with it is super powerful, but with that comes a learning curve, of course. The device had a couple of bugs at first but DeLorme was very quick to issue firmware updates and now it is pretty slick. Seeing where you are riding on a color aerial photograph and then toggling back to a topo map when you want to is just too cool. The company is great with customer service, and are great to their customers.
I also use the GPS for car routing (great for getting to a new trailhead), kayaking, hiking, geocaching, etc. It's a great all-in-one type device. The screen, though super-bright, is a bit small for in car use, but that's not what it was built for, specifically. The RAM mount cradle itself is really solid, but the bike mount version sold by DeLorme has a small issue. The clamp that actually goes around the bars is too small for 31.8 "oversized" bars. I use standard 25.4's and it works fine for me. I thought RAM might have a better clamp on their site, but I didn't see one. Anyway, I love the device, you should definitely look into it. 
Check the reviews at REI.com and look at this map, which was made using the Topo USA software. http://bradburymountain.com/page.cfm?pageID=53

-B


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## 3034 (Apr 12, 2006)

Bebrianbike can you see your position overlayed on top of
a USGS quandrangle map ? (24k detailed quad map not the Garmin 100k type)
while riding ?


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## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

3034 said:


> Bebrianbike can you see your position overlayed on top of
> a USGS quandrangle map ? (24k detailed quad map not the Garmin 100k type)
> while riding ?


From everything I've read, YES! Better be able to, this is one of the main reasons I'm considering the unit.

One caveat, the USGS quad needs to be in geotiff file format, or you can literally scan in a portion of the quad and "register" two points on the map using the Xmap software from Delorme (yes, you need to purchase Xmap, but you get it at half-price with purchasing the unit).

Okay, you got me. I don't own the unit, yet..


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## gps_dr (Feb 27, 2007)

I've been using the PN20 and DeLorme Software (for editing tracks) along with a Garmin 76CSX to map bike trails.








Topo layer with 3 bike trails in draw layer (Longmont, Colorado).








Satellite layer with one tracklog (old software), 








Bike setup using two ram-mounts.

The older version (Topo 6) would only show the tracks on the TOPO layer.
The new Topo 7 allow cutting tracks along with the imagery & quad maps.
I bought their USGS qaud maps for the state some years ago ($50 now for PN20 users I believe)
and have 10M satellite from an Xmap purchase years ago. Tempted to update to the new Xmap for $100 to get the ability to bring in other imagery.

The software is quite powerful, takes a little getting used to.
I've been working on converting my network of a thousand miles of bike trails into
routable trails in TOPO USA. This task will compete with playing with the new Garmin Colorado 400t I received yesterday. Looks like I will be using it's bike mount on the stem and run with 3 units for a while......Sure hope the trails dry out quickly!


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## bebrianbike (Feb 5, 2008)

3034,
Yes, you can definitely see yourself overlayed on the USGS 1:24K maps while navigating, riding or otherwise. Your tracks and waypoints also overlay on all of the different types of data you can view on the PN-20. And, sorry to contridict, Imnop, but you don't have to have the extra Xmap software to do so. You can download all types of different imagery right from the Topo USA software that comes with the PN. Delorme even gives you a certificate for $100 worth free. From what I can tell, the USGS quads cost 5 cents per sq. km. So you can get a lot of that stuff for your $100 worth! You can also purchase the entire state's worth of USGS 7.5's on disc from Delorme for $50 if you're a PN-20 owner. What I did was get my state on DVD and use my $100 certificate for aerial imagery and NOAA charts for my paddling excursions.

As for the Xmap Pro software, which I got recently as as add on/upgrade (Delorme gives a discount on this a well) gives you the ability to "register" any imagery you can find on the web, from state GIS sites and the like, and then transfer that data to the PN. Same thing goes for paper maps, if you can get them scanned into a jpeg or tiff format then you can register them and transfer them to the PN. Which is pretty sweet... think about it... any map you can find on the internet, or on paper, on your GPS. 

gps_dr,
Do you find yourself adjusting your fork preload often with that much extra weight?  Thanks for posting those pics, they look pretty sweet, let me know when you the Colorado mounted up! By the way, my Topo 6 showed my track files over imagery just like topo 7, yours did not?

Sorry for the long post, hope I didn't rant... as you can tell, I like DeLorme a lot.

-B


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## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

Brian,

No worries, I stand corrected. Thanks for the 411. 

What kind of battery life do you get out in the field with the imagery showing?


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## gps_dr (Feb 27, 2007)

bebrianbike said:


> 3034,
> 
> gps_dr,
> Do you find yourself adjusting your fork preload often with that much extra weight?  Thanks for posting those pics, they look pretty sweet, let me know when you the Colorado mounted up! By the way, my Topo 6 showed my track files over imagery just like topo 7, yours did not?
> ...


I couldn't get TOPO 6 to show the tracks on the PN-20 for anything other than the vector TOPO 6 data. Maybe it was before I converted the tracks to a draw layer?

Rails 2 Trails requires trail data providers to use a Garmin 60/76 series for data collection, so I'll probably be using 3 GPS units on those trips. Total weight w/mounts for the gadgets should be < 2 pounds..
Will be doing some comparative pics w/them all mounted with some screen captures too.


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## bebrianbike (Feb 5, 2008)

Imnop, 
I use the rechargable battery (Li-ion) setup from DeLorme, and I'm really good about keeping it charged up, so I might not be the best example. I have definitely gotten 5 or 6 hours use out of it with backlight on high, marking waypoints and leaving tracks, toggling between imagery, with WAAS enabled (which, I hear, can be a big battery drain), and the battery showed still having at least 1/3 of it's life left, and that was below freezing temps (snowshoeing). The device has settings for what battery type you are using, and it adjusts the battery life meter accordingly. Once I had it set for the Li-ion, and it was running low, so I switched to regular alkaline duracells and forgot to change the setting. I was very confused for about 20 mins while the batts that were brand new showed 1/4 life left.  
Anyway, the battery life is good, no worries on an epic ride. :thumbsup: 

-B


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## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

Brian,

Thanks for the info. I went ahead and pulled the trigger today, especially when I found out about the rebate offer the PN-20 bundle has for the next ten days!

http://delorme.com/retailmatch/


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## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

Okay, so I've had the PN-20 for a week or so. This thing rocks! I wish I had picked one up sooner. I also purchased the USGS quads for So Cal. 

While I had some reservations about the TOPO 7 software, these were mostly unfounded. The ability of the unit to disply the raster 7.5-minute quads (and aerial photos, satellilte imagery) rules and is a feature you don't find in many units costing much more.

I can't recommend this thing highly enough!


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## aetters (Jun 26, 2007)

*Contour Lines*

I am considering this unit for locating and laying down new trail. Does it show contour lines in great detail?


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

Yes, and the contour detail is adjustable. Give it a shot, the 30 day return is hard to beat.


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## aetters (Jun 26, 2007)

From what I can read, it does not contain a altimeter or a compass. Are these major drawbacks?


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

Well, not for me they aren't. For MTB'ing I'm only using it to track where I've been, so I don't care much about the compass. This is only a problem when you aren't moving anyway, as once you are moving the GPS calculates your direction of travel. The PN-20 also calculates the elevation and keeps track of that, but the accuracy is not as good as an electronic altimeter. I also don't really care about that much as long as I have a general indication of vertical that's good enough for my use.


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## aetters (Jun 26, 2007)

*Software Recomendations*

Looks like a ton of options for downloads for the PN-20. What are some of the software combos you guys are running?


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

aetters said:


> ...software combos you guys are running?


Not sure what you mean - the PN-20 comes with the TOPO software, it is no additional cost (unlike Garmins Mapsource). You also get $100 worth of free downloads for imagery, NOAA charts, etc. TOPO does what I need and the imagery is very useful for geo-referencing your tracks later... TOPO is as good or better than any of the other mapping software, DeLorme maps are second to none.


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## aetters (Jun 26, 2007)

fishbum,
I see. So no additional software is required, just options to add aerial imagry etc. Would you recommed any of the imagery downloads over another. Also, I would like to upload, GIS info from my county GIS, do I need xMap Pro to do this?


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

For the best imagery it depends on your area - check the hires color city imagery if you can get it, otherwise the black and white DOQQs are all that may be useful.
Not sure about the GIS data, I don't know whether TOPO can import it or not, sorry.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Garmin GPS receivers can handle vector GIS data. You can generate your own topos and import via a few freeware programs into Mapsource (and then to your GPS). With MN DNR Garmin, you can put shapefiles onto your GPS (basically, MN DNR Garmin automatically converts them into .gpx format files).

If you really want to play with GIS in the field, get a pocketpc-based PDA with a gps receiver of some sort and buy ArcPad. It'll make use of more or less any type of GIS data.


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## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

Xmap Pro can handle shape files, and export them as well to the PN-20!


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## aetters (Jun 26, 2007)

*Im in*

Thanks lmnop for the info. I though that the xMap made that possible. Im going with the PN-20. Ill post up my feedback in a few days!


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## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm really digging the PN-20! The RAM mount leaves a little to be desired, though. I was riding some rough trails out in Sedona and the unit ejected! No harm, no foul to the PN-20. The mount failed as a screw eventually wore down the plastic threads. Hmm, back to the drawing board.

On another note, the unit tracks just fine when placed within a Camelback, in a vertical position.


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

Well we can blame RAM for that design!
Odd, but my RAM mount has thru-bolts and locknuts on all the connections... One thru the bar mount to hold it on the bar, and the second is thru the GPS mount to the bar mount. So I have no threaded plastic threads on mine...
To be safe I always loop the lanyard around the bar, just in case...


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## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

In my haste to get the RAM mount on, I didn't see the little hole on the side that allows for the locknut to slide in for the GPS mount to bar mount connection. I should have been a bit more careful, obviously, but I got the mount just a couple of days before my Sedona trip. The "issue" has been corrected, ahem...


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## ROAD WARRIOR (Jan 9, 2005)

*PN-20 Mount*

Took one look at the handle bar mount and pitched all the loose parts in the big Misc. box. Took the PN-20 holder and used a miter saw blade to cut slots into the bottom of the mount, slid a hose clamp through it and clamped it to the stem. That's the short version , A little padding to protect the stem will get the basic job done, I also went to work with a file for a cutom fit and, drilled a bunch of holes in the non stress areas Looks cool weighs almost nothing. Not as light or compact as a Garmin Vista set up but should surive a crash a lot better.


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## saldman (Aug 5, 2003)

*How about receiver sensitivity?*

No one has mentioned how well the receiver is. I have a older Garmin Etrex Legend that I use and it loses satellite lock in heavy tree coverage and in valleys. I know that the new batch of Garmins correct this but they specifically specify that fact.

How des the PN-20 stack up to the task?

Sal


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## ROAD WARRIOR (Jan 9, 2005)

Haven't tried the new high sentisvety reciver. But I would say the PN-20 works a little better in tree cover than my 2 year old color vista, and is a lot better than my old grey scale legend.


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## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

I live in So Cal, so my opportunities to ride under cover are few and far between. I am, however, able to often get a 3-D lock with the unit inside my house. There are Delorme forums that discuss the receiver sensitivity to death! http://forum.delorme.com/index.php


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## benjamin921 (Sep 1, 2006)

The DeLorme rocks for mountain biking. Using the XMap and free aerial imagery on the web, I have recent, 2005, color imagery. Then I have my mountain bike trails overlaid on top of that (you can turn that overlay on/off). Plus the Topo quads maps as well.


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## benjamin921 (Sep 1, 2006)

Here are the Topo Quads.


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## aetters (Jun 26, 2007)

*Accuracy*

Does anyone know at what level of accuracy they work down to. (3 ft, 10ft, etc).
I will be building trail in a small area (30-50) acres so knowing where my property lines are is critical. Also, in a small piece of land switch backs are going to used frequently to extend the milage of the trail. If I had two trails running parrell at 10ft apart, would the PN-20 show them seperatly?


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

I think you would be hard pressed to find any consumer GPS that could resolve that level of accuracy - unless you want to spend $3-10K on a pro model! 

Normally in ideal conditions most GPS can give you +/- 30 feet, but thats clear sky, no foliage and no signal reflections. Ride the same trail repeatedly even on the same day and they will not likely line up. Add foliage and the accuracy can worsen.

Your best bet is to use the GPS for key control points like stream crossings, intersections, stone walls, property boundaries etc. and then let the trail layout follow the land in between. You can plan the trails on DeLorme's TOPO software, transfer the key control points to the PN-20 with the trail layout, and then once you get in the field you will need to change the routing anyway to accommodate natural features like cliffs, rock gardens, or steep hills. I would use the GPS to get a general trail layout, but in the field you can tune your trail plan to fit the terrain. My 2 cents anyway.


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## lmnop (Jan 10, 2005)

As far as your "critical" property lines, have a land surveyor mark a few property corners. Knowing the distance and bearing along the property lines, you could use a compass at a property corner to point you accurately along the bearing. If the terrain isn't too severe and the brush not too thick, you might even be able to put some chalk lines down using a 100' tape.


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## TX_Shifter (Aug 14, 2007)

aetters said:


> From what I can read, it does not contain a altimeter or a compass. Are these major drawbacks?


It shows a compass here: http://www.delorme.com//images/sampleMaps/PN20/Compass/default.htm


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

Thats the GPS direction derived compass, not an electronic compass, although the PN-40 is supposed to have an electronic compass and altimeter.


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## benjamin921 (Sep 1, 2006)

http://blog.delorme.com/2008/06/25/announcing-the-delorme-earthmate-pn-40/

* NEW! Super high-sensitivity 32-channel Cartesio chipset by STMicroelectronics delivers near-instantaneous signal acquisition and ConstantLock™ satellite retention
* NEW! Dual-core processor for rapid screen re-draws, even with large aerial imagery files
* NEW! 500 MB of onboard Flash memory (1 GB total hard drive)
* NEW! 3-axis electronic compass with included accelerometer performs when held in any position-while in motion or standing still
* NEW! Sensitive barometric altimeter for reliably accurate altitude readings
* NEW! Supports SDHC high-capacity SD cards-32 GB or higher
* NEW! Fast USB 2.0 data transfer to internal memory or SD card in device
* NEW! More detailed onboard base map data for the U.S., now with secondary and connector roads (along with major highways and thoroughfares for the entire world)
* 65K-color daylight-readable TFT screen for clarity in any light conditions
* WAAS-enabled for accuracy within 3 meters
* Topo USA 7.0 software with complete U.S topo and street maps included-no extra purchase required. Also displays USGS 7.5-min quads, aerial imagery, and NOAA nautical charts via online download from DeLorme
* PN-40 scheduled for Fall 2008 release

Some quick specs!


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## saldman (Aug 5, 2003)

benjamin921 said:


> http://blog.delorme.com/2008/06/25/announcing-the-delorme-earthmate-pn-40/
> 
> * NEW! Super high-sensitivity 32-channel Cartesio chipset by STMicroelectronics delivers near-instantaneous signal acquisition and ConstantLock™ satellite retention
> * NEW! Dual-core processor for rapid screen re-draws, even with large aerial imagery files
> ...


PN-20 user and believer here. I am getting the PN-40 and letting go my PN-20 in case anyone is interested. I just wish they get here already.

Sal


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## benjamin921 (Sep 1, 2006)

The release date of mid November looks pretty good so far.


Chip Noble said:


> Firmware went gold today, everyone's very excited. Accelerometer is squared away and things are rolling. Caleb's updated mid-November is looking solid. Everyone hates a delay so we definitely appreciate the patience being shown here on the forums.
> 
> Again, thanks for the patience while we get these devices ready for shipping.
> 
> -Chip


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