# Banning bikes is simply a humane way of protecting our natural areas



## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

Didn't want to post this under trail advocacy since few people visit that forum. I got an email from a co-worker about a proposal he made to construct new mountain bike trails in California. He asked me not to divulge the location to anyone at this time. He was fired up after receiving a letter from a particular conservancy who insisted mountain bike trails were bad for the environment. She made arguments about snakes being run over and bikers bringing non-native plant seeds into areas they would ride. She was also concerned about all the bikers that might need to be rescued, after being lost or injured. Then she posted a link to the following article. I wondered if land managers take these type of studies serious. What do you think?

The Effects of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --

{{{{{MV drivel edited out by moderator, do we really need to read this stuff? }}}}

Vandeman, Michael J., Ph.D. http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles/,

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande.


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*Use the search function here for the author.*

Michael J. Vandeman


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## Gatorback (Oct 9, 2007)

> Ideally, we should be working to reduce all human access to wildlife habitat.


That "idea" is ridiculous in my assessment and shows the extreme bias of the author. That study can be ripped to shreds as a legitimate academic work.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

Please don't bring that Vandeman BS to this site. I like posting here because I don't have to put up with daily crap from that troll.

His research methods are poor, his 'facts' are only his opinion and I believe the Sierra club dropped him because even they thought his ideas too extreme.

No, I don't like him.


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## dan0 (Oct 12, 2005)

well, he mixes and matches data at will , combines mtn bikes with dirt bikes and orvs and makes several missleading and outright false statements.
1 how many mtn bikers ride on 30 ft wide trails, thats a road not single track
2 he states that bikers made 4 1/2 miles of illegal trails and the result was they chased out elderly hikers , why were the elderly hikers walking on illegal mtn bike trails?
3 mtn bikes go on existing trails, noboody takes their mtn bike bushwacking through the woods
4 mtn bikes do no more harm than hikers and less damage than motorized vehicles or horses
5 how many "seeds" get delivered by horse crap or hikers boots, plus very little trash is left by bikers, cant say the same about hikers

I dont know how he got a Phd unless it was mail order


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## dan0 (Oct 12, 2005)

The Prodigal Son said:


> Didn't want to post this under trail advocacy since few people visit that forum. I got an email from a co-worker about a proposal he made to construct new mountain bike trails in California. He asked me not to divulge the location to anyone at this time. He was fired up after receiving a letter from a particular conservancy who insisted mountain bike trails were bad for the environment. She made arguments about snakes being run over and bikers bringing non-native plant seeds into areas they would ride. She was also concerned about all the bikers that might need to be rescued, after being lost or injured. Then she posted a link to the following article. I wondered if land managers take these type of studies serious. What do you think?
> 
> The Effects of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
> 
> ...


this guys an idiot,Ive highlighted some obvious gaffs, but I couldnt read it anymore he basicly wants the parks people free to save the snakes he allmost stepped on, and apparently once was scarred by a mtn biker


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

let this thread die. This troll posts on another board I read as well, no need to fuel his fire.


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

My head hurts now:madman:


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

just tell her that this guy got kick off the board of the California Sierra Club for being too whacked. He's also been voted "Kook of the Year on the Internet" numerous times. Google this guy, not too many take him seriously and PLEASE don't quote his BS on this board.


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## tomsmoto (Oct 6, 2007)

11 year old article from some crazy guy. holy dead horse beating!


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Yeah, Vandeman is to trail advocacy what Scientology is to religion. Pay him no mind.

BTW - nobody's really sure if he's actually a PhD. He just started putting it after his name on everything but nobody can find any documentation, including him.


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## Garlock (Jul 9, 2008)

There's a reason why we have zoos. It was so we could ride wherever we wanted with out caring. If you get in our way, you WILL be exterminated. You have been warned.


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## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

Clutchman83 said:


> Yeah, Vandeman is to trail advocacy what Scientology is to religion. Pay him no mind.
> 
> BTW - nobody's really sure if he's actually a PhD. He just started putting it after his name on everything but nobody can find any documentation, including him.


Vandy is a kook, but his credentials are true. He does have a degree, and a PhD. But his fields of study did not have anything to do with Biology, Environmental Science, or the like... my failing memory wants to say Math and Psychology or the like.

He's been repudiated by several governments (he sent comments to a Michigan Trails plan years ago), scientists (look on usenet), and supposedly the Sierra Club. If you disagree with him you are a liar, and advocate bulldozer racing. Then if you were persistant, it was time to try and get you fired. Never mind he'd cherry pick your argument for the 1/4 or 1/2 line that _might_ support _part_ of what he'd say.

I verbally sparred with him waaaay back, and seeing how entrenched he was in the early '90's... I started working for trail advocacy. Because of Mike's rantings - I was able to help open at least of six miles of trail, and helped maintain dozens, nay, scores more.

I do wonder if he's likewise inspired others. What effect have his butterfly wings had?

JmZ


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2008)

bulldozer racing sounds like good fun...


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## Upandatem (Apr 11, 2004)

dan0 said:


> this guys an idiot,Ive highlighted some obvious gaffs, but I couldnt read it anymore he basicly wants the parks people free to save the snakes he allmost stepped on, and apparently once was scarred by a mtn biker


You noted a portion of his study about him basically stating that human presence was a danger to wildlife, well his a protion of his own little bio...



> Passions:
> 
> Art (especially Winslow Homer, Jose Orozco, Diego Rivera, Albert P. Ryder, Utamaro, A. Paul Weber), bicycling, biology (especially frogs and snakes), bookstores (especially Black Oak and Kinokuniya), English Literature (especially Emerson, John Steinbeck, and Walt Whitman), ham radio, hiking and camping, judo, languages (especially German, Japanese, and Spanish), libraries, mathematics (especially calculus, point-set topology, and trigonometry), music (especially Bach, Crystal Gayle, John Seed, "Keep on the Sunny Side of Life", "Across the Great Divide" (Kate Wolf), Ravi Shankar, Red Gum, Sharon Burch, Stephanie Davis, Tammy Wynette, Wagner (especially "Tristan and Isolde" and "The Flying Dutchman"), and Yothu Yindi), nurses, organic food, plants (especially trees), picking up trash (get a picker-upper like the "Park Patrol" from Pikes Peak Industries, PO Box 9422, Colorado Springs, CO 80909), programming (especially assembler and PL/I), reference librarians, Synanon, teachers, the U.S. Southwest, water (especially streams), wilderness


Hypocritical?


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## Cobretti (May 23, 2005)

Prodigal Son,
I didn't read your entire diatribe, the title was enough for me. One question, banning bikes is more humane than what? Executing bike riders?


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## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

Never heard such bs in my life. I dont want to know what Id do to someone who said all this crap to me on the street. Im not normally violent but thats taking it too far. THIS is the problem with our society. When people who believe in the same thing start fighting. Destroy the environment... BAH!!! I guess we should also all pack up in a rocket ship and leave to mars (I bet sir prodigal here would agree). This is coming from a total advocate for environmentalism, electric cars, solar power, conservation of forests, and all things that are good for nature. Sad to see such morons in these well meaning organizations, but I guess you will always get the extremist retard. Pardon my rant, I cant take much more of this BS.


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

WIlderness Coalition crap.


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

*Thanks for the replys and low down on the author*

I'll be in contact with the director of the conservation corps (my boss) wanting to build new trails. I'll ask him to read all of your replies and to gather more info on this man so he can send it to the land managers. They are being bombarded by a woman running a conservancy who actually used this guys article as evidence they should not allow mountain bike trails out in...nuts, I promised I wouldn't say where in California this is being considered. Not yet.

Again, thanks for your comments. Sorry to open old wounds. He who shall not be named again, is forgotten forever.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*You showed a lot of respect to this site*

by testing these ideas here to discover some context for understanding. Yes, Land Managers can take this stuff seriously and are abused constantly by hystrionic conservancy types. The challenge is that V almost sounds smart but the more one listens to him the more twisted, vicious, and sanctimonious he appears. It is important to educate Land Managers to the broader and more reasonable view. Bring IMBA to the table for starters:

http://www.imba.com/


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## rallyraid (Jun 12, 2007)

I'm partial to Caterpillars.


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## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

The Prodigal Son said:


> but particularly the sealed bearing -- which could be ridden in dirt without getting destroyed -- are what made "mountain" (off-road) bicycling possible.)




wow, i guess nobody sent this article to SHI*MANO.


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## jmitchell13 (Nov 20, 2005)

Cobretti said:


> Prodigal Son,
> I didn't read your entire diatribe, the title was enough for me. One question, banning bikes is more humane than what? Executing bike riders?


Perhaps you should've at least read the first paragraph before attacking the OP... It is not "his" diatribe...

Next time read before you post...


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

I wonder if Vandejerkoff could name the "Olympic hopeful" who trained in Brown's Woods?

What a pile of BS.


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## glassphisheye (Feb 16, 2006)

Mountain biking actually helps to preserve wildlife and their habitats. Biking is just another reason to keep lands wild. One more reason to defend against development. Some people just like to biotch.


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## Psycho Mike (Apr 2, 2006)

The Prodigal Son said:


> I'll be in contact with the director of the conservation corps (my boss) wanting to build new trails. I'll ask him to read all of your replies and to gather more info on this man so he can send it to the land managers. They are being bombarded by a woman running a conservancy who actually used this guys article as evidence they should not allow mountain bike trails out in...nuts, I promised I wouldn't say where in California this is being considered. Not yet.
> 
> Again, thanks for your comments. Sorry to open old wounds. He who shall not be named again, is forgotten forever.


I actually reviewed his "literature review" on the effects of mountain biking....I'd call it an opinion paper rather than a literature review. Too many things taken out of context, incomplete quotes, unsubstantiated claims and generalizations. Great on the emotions, but short on fact...if you want a copy of my critical review, PM me.

Vandeman's never done any actual research (just "literature reviews") on mountain biking, but yet has claimed on usenet that he "wrote the book" on mountain bike impacts and that he's the world's only expert (i.e. he has no peers, so no one is qualified to review his work for publishing in a related journal).

As others have said...if the lady you're dealing with is using Vandeman's work to support her claims, then her position is not very strong.


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## JamR (Feb 22, 2005)

The Prodigal Son said:


> I'll be in contact with the director of the conservation corps (my boss) wanting to build new trails. I'll ask him to read all of your replies and to gather more info on this man so he can send it to the land managers. They are being bombarded by a woman running a conservancy who actually used this guys article as evidence they should not allow mountain bike trails out in...nuts, I promised I wouldn't say where in California this is being considered. Not yet.
> 
> Again, thanks for your comments. Sorry to open old wounds. He who shall not be named again, is forgotten forever.


This is a growing trend and I can tell you the from first-hand experience what I am witnessing from my perspective as a mountain biker and land manager.

Bottom line........there are extreme views and anecdotal statements that land managers are bombarded with from both sides.......the environmental end and from the user groups.

A perfect example was listed in an earlier thread here and is a common anecdotal comment that bikers use far too often and it makes them look silly to the land managers. Far too often the example is used that hikers have more impact on trails than bikers....and it is stated that scientific evidence shows that a rolling tire has much less impact than the point-load of a hiking boot. Very true.....but that's not how we ride, and we need to be willing to admit that, otherwise we do not gain credibility.

We do create accelerated errosion because of over-braking and there is no denying the amount of rutting that takes place on many trails because of it.....and it is a constant educational battle. Also drifting is becoming a common practice on many trails and there are many videos and instructional threads on the art of drifting.

The offset to this is the fact that there is no such thing as a completely sustainable trail(even if it is solely a hiking trail), and all trails require maintenance......and the bottom line is that a years worth of bike errosion on many trails is easily repaired in a couple of hours of volunteer maintenance annually (for the major part performed in my local area by bikers).

My point is that if bikers want to break the mold.....then they need to not resort to the extreme anecdotal comments that put them in the exact same category as the people they are complaining about.

The reality that I am seeing locally however is that there is a trend in conservation areas that have been won by hard battles to protect them from development and have them permanently protected as open space areas. The trend seems to be that now that the battle is over with the threat of development.......the current percieved threats that the land managers are talking about are 1)climate change, 2)fire frequency, and 3)user over-use and mis-use. The first two are tough items, but the third is ironic; because the very people who fought to get the areas protected from development have in some manner become one of the current threats.

Unfortunately bikers do get lumped into a bad reputation......much of it unjustified, but also some of it justified. Locally, the largest impact being discussed by land managers is the amount of unauthorized trails and trail use by the user groups.....and also unfortunately, mountain bikers do make up the largest population of this group (verified by credible studies, and ongoing monitoring).

So it is definitely a reality that land managers are discussing the various user groups and the over-use of protected areas; and discussions of bike restrictions or eliminations in some areas is taking place.

However, there is also clear understanding from the other land managers I work and network with that the percentage of "bad apples" in any user group is typically a relatively small number, and closures are typically the last resort.......with education and necessary enforcement being the first logical steps.

I would just suggest that in any of your conversations with the land managers, be open to constructive criticism, and be prepared to admit some culpability on the part of our sport. If we approach this subject like we are innocent lambs and victims, and make statements that our sport has no negative impact on the habitat.....we will not have any credibility.

One undeniable fact to remember............all uses and user groups have some negative impact on these areas (even the land managers presence in the areas in the process of managing and protecting the areas has some negative short-term impact).

Come to the table with an open mind and you will gain more respect from the managers.....and from my experience; most managers are smart enough to glean out the extreme anecdotal comments from all users (environmentalists and the mountain bike community).

There are definitely challenges ahead for the sport of mountain biking, but I still see positive movement.....but the bike community also has to step up to the plate in many areas and get involved in a fruitful and positive manner.

I've seen too many good things take place and see more coming down the line....but bikers do need to get involved and stay involved.

Just some thoughts.


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## LWright (Jan 29, 2006)

Can you tell us the name of the "Lady" using the garbage constantly regurgitated by the VandiKook, there are several with a history of their own.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

JamR said:


> Just some thoughts.


Agree with most you said, though it's been said a hundred times already. My one beef. True "drifting" as in scrubbing both tires under a heavy cornering load that is inertia induced, not braking induced really isn't that damaging to the trail. It can redistribute soil and form berms if you call that destructive but it doesn't rut or induce erosion like braking induced slides.

Other than that rage on brother.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

When i recieved a letter from the guy, people in the bikey community told me to think of it as an honor that you have elevated yourself in mountain bike advocacy status.

So tell your pal to feel lucky he's arrived?....:skep:


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

Many of you said this guys stuff shouldn't on this forum, I beg to differ. I am new to mtb advocacy and found this thread very informative. I had heard some of his stuff before, and now I know where it's comming from. If nothing else this should cut down on the amount of times I use the phrase,"_ Where the heck did you get that from?_"


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

LWright said:


> Can you tell us the name of the "Lady" using the garbage constantly regurgitated by the VandiKook, there are several with a history of their own.


Let me guess -- Santa Barbara?

There was (maybe still is) a sierra club sock puppet organization operating there called 'Save the Trails' or similar. Their entire website, and the basis for their arguments, was nothing but MV links.

She claimed she was not affilated with the sierra club, but someone with the identical name was listed on the Santa Barbara chapter officeholder list, and her website was hosted on the same server as the SC's... Must've just been a series of coincidences...

Back to the OP -- land managers do not take MV seriously. They listen politely to his immature ramblings, thank him for his input, and then ignore him. Even his own peers in the left-wing eco-extremist cabal no longer take him seriously. He has become something of an embarassment to the environmental industry.


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## JamR (Feb 22, 2005)

Clutchman83 said:


> Agree with most you said, though it's been said a hundred times already. My one beef. True "drifting" as in scrubbing both tires under a heavy cornering load that is inertia induced, not braking induced really isn't that damaging to the trail. It can redistribute soil and form berms if you call that destructive but it doesn't rut or induce erosion like braking induced slides.
> 
> Other than that rage on brother.


Agreed......drifting was just an example of a mtb practice that is getting noticed by managers.

What I really wanted to point out was that even accelerated erosion is pretty easy to repair and maintain on an annual basis by simple trail maintenance.....so it's not as serious of an issue as it would seem on the surface.

Good points!


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## Trevor_S (Jun 25, 2007)

JamR said:


> .and from my experience; most managers are smart enough to glean out the extreme anecdotal comments from all users (environmentalists and the mountain bike community).


Unfortunately nearly all the land managers I deal with are senior bureaucrats that got there simply because other, often good people, became so frustrated with the system they leave... and we are left with those that are close to the extreme end of environmentalists. Getting past them is an exercise in futility, their eyes glaze over at the mere mention of MTB :skep:

Often bird watching and bush walking are the only two activities that fall within acceptable use but that will help explain the constantly diminishing numbers using the facilities and the resultant reduced budgets... they are okay with the first but not the second


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## HarryCallahan (Nov 2, 2004)

Shelbak73 said:


> Many of you said this guys stuff shouldn't on this forum, I beg to differ. I am new to mtb advocacy and found this thread very informative. I had heard some of his stuff before, and now I know where it's coming from. If nothing else this should cut down on the amount of times I use the phrase,"_ Where the heck did you get that from?_"


Glad you found it helpful. I've run across the guy's info more than a few times. He's pretty relentless / obsessive on the topic, and he spreads his stuff far and wide, not just in California. And in small doses, he can sound credible, and pull in gullible folks and those pre-disposed to a no bikes attitude.

He's got the academic lingo down, so you have to push past his initial claims, as did Psycho Mike to see that he doesn't actually have the credentials to back up the claims he makes.

What he is really good at is trolling and tying up discussion lists and online forums with increasingly angry feuds, then pulling quotes out of them that make cyclists look bad. This is particularly bad when it happens in the forum section of a local paper.

There's a woman in Marin who is also very good at this, but I don't think she posts stuff to other states the way M.V. does


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

HarryCallahan said:


> "And in small doses, he can sound credible..."


That's a dangerous thing, especially with todays sound bite laden thumbnail news programs, a little mis-information can go a long, long way, and take years to debunk.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I remember back when MV himself would troll these very forums. Unfortunately, I wasn't into mtb's back in the usenet days to witness the massive flame wars that guy started there that have since become legendary.

A year or so ago, he sent a letter into one of the papers in Pittsburgh about some trail somesuch going on there. I e-mailed a bit of a rant to the editor about the guy and his history...and made sure it was just foul enough that it wouldn't get published. Hopefully I managed to educate them about this nutjob.

Discussions about him show up every few months or so, I'd guess. The topic definitely gets covered here ad infinitum.


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## sick4surf (Feb 4, 2004)

dave54 said:


> Back to the OP -- land managers do not take MV seriously. They listen politely to his immature ramblings, thank him for his input, and then ignore him. Even his own peers in the left-wing eco-extremist cabal no longer take him seriously. He has become something of an embarassment to the environmental industry.


Once the press release went out that NYC Parks were going to allow mountain biking, MV called the land managers to complain. I think he even sent the local botanical society against us. Either the land managers determined he was not playing with a full deck (after a lengthy phone conversation) or we did a very good job advocating for the trails and showing how we can be partners in caring for the park's resources. We were diligent in addressing their concerns as well as providing reams of the many science and research papers that exists.

Your work is cut out for you.


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

The Prodigal Son said:


> Didn't want to post this under trail advocacy since few people visit that forum. I got an email from a co-worker about a proposal he made to construct new mountain bike trails in California. He asked me not to divulge the location to anyone at this time. He was fired up after receiving a letter from a particular conservancy who insisted mountain bike trails were bad for the environment. She made arguments about snakes being run over and bikers bringing non-native plant seeds into areas they would ride. She was also concerned about all the bikers that might need to be rescued, after being lost or injured. Then she posted a link to the following article. I wondered if land managers take these type of studies serious. What do you think?
> 
> The Effects of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
> 
> ...


Titan Go King is back.


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

Well it seems there's only one choice................use the material for the border fence with Mexico to be put around any natural terrain, heaven forbid anyone enter! Shoot dude, nature is to be enjoyed...........some do it on bikes, some on their feet, etc. Motorized traffic sucks 'cause they've got the horsepower to shred anywhere they want, whereas I'm limited by interest and lung capacity. Bottom line is use your brains and be reasonable, I'm lucky enough to be from st.george utah where I build sweet fr singletrack without any trouble!


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## KLittle123 (Oct 27, 2007)

I really enjoyed his pictures of the destruction that mountain biking is causing...they were intense...










OH GOD NOT THE CULVERT!


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