# Steel Full Suspension Bikes



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

These seem to be gaining popularity in the small brand/hand made bike market. I love the short travel 29er segment with progressive geometry and the lure of steel makes me want one!

Cotic FlareMAX, Swarf Contour, Starling Murmur (or SS Beady Little Eye!!!), who else? Seems to be gaining momentum, especially in the UK.

There's also custom frame builder options like Waltworks, and I've seen a few at NAHBA the last few years, but I'm wondering how long it will be until a semi major manufacturer starts offering production steel full suspension bikes/frames?

What other full suspension steel bikes are available?

Edit: Updated with links


Cotic- https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/
Myth Cycles Zodiac- Zodiac
Ferrum- https://ferrumbikes.com
Swarf- Frames
Starling Murmer- https://www.starlingcycles.com/bikes/murmur-enduro/
Production Privee Shan No.5- Shan Nº5 Classic Frame
Stanton Switch 9er FS- Switch9er FS - Stanton Bikes
Project 12 Cycleworks- http://projectxii.nl/en/vertigo-2/
BTR Fabrications Pinner (27.5)- The Pinner - BTR Fabrications
Curtis- https://www.curtisbikes.co.uk/frames/am-enduro/
Portus- https://portus-cycles.de/der-flotte-karl-unsere-maschine-fuers-grobe/
Caminade- https://caminade.eu/en/chilleasy-572000-20.php
Waltworks- https://waltworks.com
Castellano Zorro- http://www.castellanodesigns.com/Zorro.html
Morph- https://www.morphcycles.co.uk/first-edition-frames
Pipedream Cycles The Full Moxie- https://www.pipedreamcycles.com/shop/the-full-moxie/?v=7516fd43adaa
Ra Bikes- https://www.ra-bikes.com
Chromag- https://us.chromagbikes.com/collections/29/products/darco
Zoceli- https://www.shredwear.cz/zoceli?lang=en


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

There are a few others, seems most are based in the UK or EU.
Other one you didn't list was Production Privee, french company and Stanton Bikes, another UK company. One of the smaller mtb rags online did a review about a year or so ago of some of the top steel bike builders, I was dead set on getting myself a Cotic RocketMAX (wanted more travel) as I love my old On-One Inbred 29er steel hardtail, but the logistical cost of getting it to the US added a bit.


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

Stanton are another brand making them.

Personally, I don't see any advantage for a FS bike being made out of steel vs alloy or carbon (obviously different story with a hardtail) but I've never ridden one so that's not based on much.


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## eshew (Jan 30, 2004)

They are cool, no doubt. But steel has 3 things going against it

Heavy
Flex
Rust

Of course benefits are

Strong
Easy to repair

Cant remember the brand, but the raw steel bike with brass brazing... straight up eye candy.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

eshew said:


> They are cool, no doubt. But steel has 3 things going against it
> 
> Heavy
> Flex
> ...


I thought Stanton bikes are treated internally to prevent rust but I guess in the event of a crash and subsequent paint removal that would rust and leave a good looking scar. By the time a steel frame ever rusted through it would be beyond the normal life of any bike though.

I've been considering the Stanton FS for some time now as a race bike, just something about them that appeals to me and that little bit of extra weight just adds to the stability. The rear leverage rate is solidly progressive and looks almost perfect to me.


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## eshew (Jan 30, 2004)

I'd say go for it, historically speaking I'm reluctant to try anything new... it may also be because I'm incredibly cheap.

I agree with you from the rust standpoint, sure you may get some surface rust, but certainly not destructive in terms of weakness.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

eshew said:


> They are cool, no doubt. But steel has 3 things going against it
> 
> Heavy
> Flex
> ...


Add: Poor suspension designs. Seriously, if there was a steel frame that was engineered with a DW suspension, that would be a cool bike.

That Swarf Contour looks great until you read single pivot and 445mm chainstays.

I get that complicated suspensions are challenging to design and build, but if I'm springing for a high end frame, it needs a high end suspension, otherwise I'd be riding rigid.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

David R said:


> Stanton are another brand making them.
> 
> Personally, I don't see any advantage for a FS bike being made out of steel vs alloy or carbon (obviously different story with a hardtail) but I've never ridden one so that's not based on much.


If you want a flexy frame, in theory the flex can be designed in to be a positive attribute, though in my experience a flexy frame means tire and chain rub.

So heavier, flexier, yeah, no real advantages, just different to be different kinda like Ti.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Yup, should have had Stanton and Production Privee on the list, good call.



Nurse Ben said:


> Add: Poor suspension designs. Seriously, if there was a steel frame that was engineered with a DW suspension, that would be a cool bike.
> 
> That Swarf Contour looks great until you read single pivot and 445mm chainstays.
> 
> I get that complicated suspensions are challenging to design and build, but if I'm springing for a high end frame, it needs a high end suspension, otherwise I'd be riding rigid.





Nurse Ben said:


> If you want a flexy frame, in theory the flex can be designed in to be a positive attribute, though in my experience a flexy frame means tire and chain rub.
> 
> So heavier, flexier, yeah, no real advantages, just different to be different kinda like Ti.


Yes, clearly these bikes are not for you. You've made your opinion clear.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Like many long time bikers, the mantra steel is real reasonates, but to bring steel into the modern age, the designs must reflect modern geometry. A short travel single pivot FS bike with a 445mm chainstay is crap.

Who's gonna buy a bike just cuz it's "pretty", esp when it's priced the same as a quality carbon frame?

Face it, to compete with other frame materials, steel had to be as good or better than aluminum or carbon: better geo, better suspension, better design.

Personally I'd buy an FS steel frame for a one pound penalty, if it was any good, otherwise I'd buy a steel hardtail and leave the full suspension duties to my other bikes.

Reality check, 3k gets you into Ti territory.



*OneSpeed* said:


> Yup, should have had Stanton and Production Privee on the list, good call.
> 
> Yes, clearly these bikes are not for you. You've made your opinion clear. Please find your way to another thread that suites your taste better.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> Add: Poor suspension designs. Seriously, if there was a steel frame that was engineered with a DW suspension, that would be a cool bike.
> 
> That Swarf Contour looks great until you read single pivot and 445mm chainstays.
> 
> I get that complicated suspensions are challenging to design and build, but if I'm springing for a high end frame, it needs a high end suspension, otherwise I'd be riding rigid.


Nice sweeping generalization mate. Check out the rear suspension on the Stanton FS.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Agree to disagree but keep it civil please. Posts edited accordingly.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

https://www.curtisbikes.co.uk/

Brian Curtis (as far as I know) hasn't yet built a 29er FS bike but if I had the budget I'd ask him to do it.

I've always (for 20+ years) loved his bikes.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

This thread is intended to discuss what steel full suspension bikes are available. Not argue their validity. 

I don't think what I said was taunting, just asking a persistently negative and strongly opinionated person to move on to another thread instead of derailing and plugging up this conversation with a bunch of argumentative BS.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Mone Cycles has been showing off a brazed steel FS. You can order a custom steel full sus from Marino Cycles. BTR Pinner as well. The DMR Bolt Long is a steel full sus (and 26") but kind of in between a slopestyle bike and a regular full sus.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Here's a couple articles with a pretty awesome collection of option. I'll update the OP with a list when I get time.

https://singletrackworld.com/2017/04/10-steel-full-suspension-bikes/

https://www.mbr.co.uk/news/steel-full-suspension-358049

These are more enduro but I'll include them here
https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/trail-enduro-bikes/five-steel-enduro-mountain-bikes.html

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/m...roudfoot-cycles-primed-29er-test-ride-review/

https://bikerumor.com/2013/07/19/st...eel-full-suspension-amenduro-mtb-by-caminade/

https://theradavist.com/2018/04/adams-prototype-sklar-rover-single-pivot-steel-full-suspension/#1

https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/Sick-Bicycle-Co-Introduces-the-Gnarpoon,2428


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

David R said:


> Stanton are another brand making them.
> 
> Personally, I don't see any advantage for a FS bike being made out of steel vs alloy or carbon (obviously different story with a hardtail) but I've never ridden one so that's not based on much.


Steel is an alloy.

Steel is stronger than aluminum and lasts forever, and if it's heavier, the difference is marginal.

I hope we see a steel FS bike for sale somewhere in the US soon outside of the unreachable custom market for me. I may have to bite the bullet and buy an aluminum bike someday, but I don't really want to.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

There was an article (will have to do some searching to see if I can find it) that much of what is needed out of steel to attain the same rigidity and strength of current "burly" aluminum bikes is quite a bit less thick tubes and large tubes. Much can be attained from the new 4130 Chromoly, Reynolds, or other alloys out there to attain similar results, still have that "warm" feeling that steel has but be close to the same weight (if not the same weight) as many of the aluminum bikes. 

I think the generalization of heavy, flexy, rusty, etc. was all true 10yrs ago but today the processes to be able to "mold" steel tubes and the advances in geometric understanding, kinesthetics, leverage ratios and all the stuff to be able to "build" those awesome bikes we have now transfers over to steel. This is why we are starting to see a resurgence of steel bikes popping up. If this weren't the case we would not see as many people starting companies with steel bikes. They are no longer just the ss or city commuter type bikes they used to be.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

*OneSpeed* said:


> This thread is intended to discuss what steel full suspension bikes are available. Not argue their validity.
> 
> I don't think what I said was taunting, just asking a persistently negative and strongly opinionated person to move on to another thread instead of derailing and plugging up this conversation with a bunch of argumentative BS.


Then let people express their opinions without feedback. My comments are no less or more important that yours. And I really don't appreciate negative reps for BS.

Edit: I'm gonna add you to my ignore list, you might want to do the same to me, then we won't trigger each other.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

gregnash said:


> I think the generalization of heavy, flexy, rusty, etc. was all true 10yrs ago


Nope, it wasn't.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

robmac48 said:


> Nice sweeping generalization mate. Check out the rear suspension on the Stanton FS.


The Stanton 27.5 bike looks good (CS 435), but again the 445mm chanistays on the 29er are looong.

As to suspension design, I'd have to be convinced that a boutique builder has designed something that's as good or better than something like the established brands who have R & D out the wazoo. Even if the steel builder copies a known design, just as long as it works.

I totally support small brands which is why I ride Guerilla Gravity, Lenz, etc... but like Greg suggested, a steel frame has got to be competitive with the other materials. Even Ti can suck if it's poorly designed.

I am in the USA, so UK brands are probably not going to make into my quiver due to no test ride options and concerns over warranty, but a domestic option might be intersting if the geo was "normal".

Anyone got kinematics to compare some of these steel FS frames with the known designs?


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

twodownzero said:


> Steel is an alloy...


That's why I'll only settle for an iron FS bike.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I love these steel suspension bikes from the UK. Probably not gonna order a FS from the UK but I have ordered a hardtail. These guys are much more at the forefront of geometry than the big brands. A steel frame is going to be heavier than a carbon wonder bike but will still be going strong when the former is landfill. 

Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Nurse Ben said:


> Like many long time bikers, the mantra steel is real reasonates, but to bring steel into the modern age, the designs must reflect modern geometry. A short travel single pivot FS bike with a 445mm chainstay is crap.
> 
> Who's gonna buy a bike just cuz it's "pretty", esp when it's priced the same as a quality carbon frame?
> 
> ...


I'm quite certain my single pivot will out perform your unicycle all over the mountain, but that doesn't stop you from riding one...


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## WilliamK (Jul 29, 2009)

I agree with gregnash, the old generalisation doesn’t sit as well with the new wave of FS steel bikes. They are streets ahead of past iterations.

They have turned around a negative trait to a very positive trait. The grip a new FS steel bike can get is often quite a lot better than the flashy brands from my experience and that’s just not me saying that, all of the recent reviews have lauded the handling of these bikes.

They are back in vogue due to a confluence of recent developments. Up to date geo, great fabrication/execution/material, 29er wheels and 1x12 gearing. All these things help them carry the extra pound well and the bikes just plain rip.

The whole ride feel is tactile, alive, and invigorating, if you want an engaging, exciting and fast ride, try the new steel.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

WilliamK said:


> The whole ride feel is tactile, alive, and invigorating, if you want an engaging, exciting and fast ride, try the new steel.


Heck, that describes my old chrome moly Bridgestone MB5 frame that has been collecting dust. I can't bring myself to throw the frame out and keep thinking I need to refurbish it and build something up. I loved the feel of that bike.


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

I've always wondered why there aren't more steel FS rides out there. I know some of the smaller builders had one or two but it wasn't a large part of their business I suppose. I seem to recall a builder named Culver or something like that that I was looking at years ago. I have zero interest in riding a plastic bike on mtn trails. My roadie is an old Lemond half carbon half ti and that's as close as I'll get to carbon. 

I prefer smaller builders if I can find one I gel with when talking on the phone. I would like a FS again someday and steel would be my #1 choice. I've ridden nothing but steel MTB's for over 10 years and just love the ride quality and feel. I'm not a weight weenie so an extra pound is nothing. 

So yea, I'm highly interested in this subject.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I've got a set of 26x2.8" tires&wheels, I'd like a steel 27.5er with tire clearance to replace my 26" aluminum Camber. I'm definitely interested.


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## sirsam84 (Sep 20, 2006)

I’ve had a Waltworks steel 29+ 160mm FS for about 3 years now. He did it with 425mm chainstays and it is both stable and super nimble for its size. (530mm reach and 720mm stack) Nicely complements the XXL GG metal Smash. Both excellent bikes!


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I think the ability to easily hydroform aluminum has really changed the game for bikes in general. My google fu didn't turn up much for hydroforming steel other then low carbon steel, and in that case idk if that would make a great material for bike frames. 

Pound for pound steel tubing doesn't stand a change against a hydroformed aluminum tube designed specifically for the application. And hydroforming is much more precise and repeatable with much tighter tolerances when compared to bending steel tubing. 

All the arguments above totally overlook this.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Lone Rager said:


> That's why I'll only settle for an iron FS bike.


Fair enough. I resent the term "alloy" to represent aluminum. It demonstrates ignorance about the precise topic these threads are already about, which is discussing which metal makes the best bike. Even saying "aluminum" really doesn't tell you anything about the material either (since there are so many types), but it at least identifies that we're talking about a narrower class than all alloyed metal.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Most of the arguments against building from steel seem to apply a lot more to online geekery and marketing mumbo-jumbo than actual riding IMHO. My Al hydroformed and carbon fiber bikes don't actually ride any better than my steel HT and FS bikes. I'm sure some people can go full dork and pull out spreadsheets and diagrams showing fractions of percentages gained in some areas, but in the real world, I can't feel the difference and I'm betting the majority of others couldn't either.


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## supermoto65 (Apr 1, 2014)

Just saw an ad for this company .. made in USA claims modern geo etc.

https://ferrumbikes.com/


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

supermoto65 said:


> Just saw an ad for this company .. made in USA claims modern geo etc.
> 
> https://ferrumbikes.com/


Crazy! Never heard of them and they are semi-local to me (at least in my state). Looks to be a single pivot suspension design similar to something like an Orange bike. Frameset is only $1300 USD which is nice.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Stanton's full sus is an aluminum rear triangle.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

supermoto65 said:


> Just saw an ad for this company .. made in USA claims modern geo etc.
> 
> https://ferrumbikes.com/


Enduro frame 7#, not too bad.
Chainstays are a tad long, but adjustable 440-455mm
Made locally I guess, the business is located in Vegas, I suspect the frame is out of Asia.

Check this out:
Warranty: Original Owner: 5 Years, Second Hand Owner: 5 years


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Steel single pivot, done right:


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ I love seeing those every time. Can we hang out so I can test ride all of them?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

*OneSpeed* said:


> ^ I love seeing those every time. Can we hang out so I can test ride all of them?


Most of those are scattered around New England being thrashed by riders far better than myself. 

But if you find yourself in White Mountains of NH at some point, I could maybe get you on something interesting for a spin.

:cornut:


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

Re Ferrum Bikes

Just ordered a frame through these guys. They were great to deal with and really were there to help as one of us that wanted to order was hoping to use the PayPal credit option so we could order at the same time. Unfortunately not available yet to us Canadians but these guys went above and beyond looking for other options to help us out. 

I highly recommend them and will be posting up the build once completed. Going to be kind of a mix and match of new/used parts to get rolling when it arrives until I can get older parts upgraded.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

I was thinking about this thread earlier today. Perfect timing.



rherman said:


> Re Ferrum Bikes
> 
> Just ordered a frame through these guys. They were great to deal with and really were there to help as one of us that wanted to order was hoping to use the PayPal credit option so we could order at the same time. Unfortunately not available yet to us Canadians but these guys went above and beyond looking for other options to help us out.
> 
> I highly recommend them and will be posting up the build once completed. Going to be kind of a mix and match of new/used parts to get rolling when it arrives until I can get older parts upgraded.


Yup, will need more details. Specs, geo, design, pics. Give us something.

More details please.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

*OneSpeed* said:


> I was thinking about this thread earlier today. Perfect timing.
> 
> Yup, will need more details. Specs, geo, design, pics. Give us something.
> 
> More details please.


Well I decided to go with the large frameset almost as is. The only thing I changed was the reach and I am more comfortable around the 460-465 range so it will be somewhere in there.

170mm 29er build
DVO topaz shock, onyx fork and the garnet dropper 150mm as part of the frameset. 
HA - 64
ST - 76
RC - 440-455
Reach I requested as above.

No photos yet as I just placed the order. I asked for a rough color match to either the blue or orange from the first banshee rune v2 color options as I always liked those and want something that stands out more than straight black.

Not too sure how to post photos but link to frameset here
https://ferrumbikes.com/product/nv-chromoly-steel-29er-enduro-frameset/

And their gallery
https://ferrumbikes.com/instagram-gallery/

I am pretty excited to try something new with the steel frame and in the process of selling both bike to go down to one.

Plus these guys totally went the extra mile to try and accommodate the situation and totally earned my business. Anything else you want to l know that I can provide without actually having it in hand fire away.


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## gfourth (Apr 12, 2009)

I've been on a Starling Murmur for this year and I love it. It rides beautifully. Never really made sense to me why we need the absolute stiffest material to go down rough terrain. Or why everyone believes that a more complicated suspension design is automatically better. Especially with how adjustable and how much more efficient shock technology has become recently. 

It rides dead silent, it's super comfortable and has traction for days. It is not soft. It has a springiness/liveliness to it, if you are accustomed to board sports you know the feeling of a poppy fresh deck, or the snappiness of a fresh surfboard. I even took it to the bike park and my friends with the latest carbon super bikes/suspension were dying from arm pump at the end of each run. I felt perfectly fine. 

Compared to my last bike with pedaling platform shock and active braking pivot I'd much rather take a well placed single pivot, a halfway decent 4 way adjustable shock, and the mechanical feel of anti squat.

As a bonus I don't worry about paint chips or even dents. I don't feel susceptible to the new model year hype anymore. The frame takes 2 bearings that I could find at an Ace hardware, and in a couple years I'll just powder coat it a fresh color and slap on the latest metric shock and fork.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

I read a lot of reviews of the murmur before I made my decision. I am going down to one bike and I think you are absolutely right. Something simple that is built to last makes a lot of sense.

Also having a bike kitted out with dvo should help get around any single pivot issues as you mentioned. 

Looking forward to getting it and building it up. I have a usual loop I do when short on time and I'm pretty excited to see the difference between this and my giant.


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## WilliamK (Jul 29, 2009)

Again, I agree with gfourth. I have recently been on a new AL steed for a few weeks and also a week in Whislter. On the first day I was wishing for the feel of my steel. I found I was searching for that greater connection with the trail. The following days I tuned into the AL bike and got on with some park fun.

I am back on the steel steed now and I am super happy. The difference became stark again. It is the feel, it is the engagement with the trail. There is a purity to the ride.

Here is my murmur.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

From reading/watching reviews of the murmur your comment is exactly what I am looking for in my next bike. With something that is longer travel it will hopefully be a true do it all bike and back to just having one bike. That thing just looks like it is ready to rip and have fun on.

Also anyone over in NA I am thinking of seeing if there is some sort of interest in working with Ferrum if I can get them to come up with a group buy price. Anyone interested shoot me a note. As mentioned they really went above and beyond to help come up with a solution so I really want to get their name out and help them out. 

Looking forward to my first experience on a steel bike, cant come soon enough.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

WilliamK said:


> It is the feel, it is the engagement with the trail. There is a purity to the ride.


+1 and rep for that :thumbsup:


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## WilliamK (Jul 29, 2009)

*Dry and dusty here*

A nice morning out on the murmur









Crunchy leaves for the photo op









Murmur is so fast, it is burning trees


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## OldHouseMan (Dec 7, 2006)

rherman said:


> Well I decided to go with the large frameset almost as is. The only thing I changed was the reach and I am more comfortable around the 460-465 range so it will be somewhere in there.
> 
> 170mm 29er build
> DVO topaz shock, onyx fork and the garnet dropper 150mm as part of the frameset.
> ...


Interesting bikes. Do you know the tire clearance with the sliders in the forward position?


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

OldHouseMan said:


> Interesting bikes. Do you know the tire clearance with the sliders in the forward position?


Not too sure yet. I have 29x2.6 Goodyear escapes that came with a wheelset I bought used. When I get the frame and start building it up I will see how they fit on there. The wheels are WTB STP i29's and I really don't have any experience with 29ers so this is going to be a whole new experience for me.

Ill definitely takes some pictures and post them as I build it up.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Another review of a Starling bike.

https://bikerumor.com/2019/09/23/re...k-steel-enduro-charger-straight-outa-bristol/

Cool back story.

https://bikerumor.com/2019/07/12/wo...ame-building-with-starling-cycles-joe-mcewan/


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## gfourth (Apr 12, 2009)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Another review of a Starling bike.
> 
> https://bikerumor.com/2019/09/23/re...k-steel-enduro-charger-straight-outa-bristol/
> 
> ...


I highly recommend the Downtime Podcast featuring Joe. It's what convinced me to buy a murmur.

On a side note I can't see how Joe and many others are running a coil on the murmur. I ran one for a while and it felt good despite having to run HSC maxed out slow. But at 145# I had to run a 500# spring. It was great on the DH but overall made the bike feel too slow/sluggish.


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

https://m.facebook.com/DarkOwlBicycles/

The headbadge is lustworthy alone.

I hope troy figures his production out.


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## BikeBro (Nov 13, 2012)

Stoked to see your order went well so far with Ferrum - I am currently thinning the quiver and getting ready to place an order for the 170 semi custom w/ 63 HTA and a slightly longer reach in the 490 range. Cant wait:thumbsup:


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

*Just Ordered Mine*

I just ordered my Castellano Zorro.

Lot's of folks dismiss all URT designs out of hand, but I'm not going into this blind. I like the design, particularly as an SS.

The Zorro is the latest version of JC's "Sweetspot" design first used on the Ibis Szazbo and Schwinn Homegrown beginning in the mid 90s. I have a '99 Schwinn currently and have been riding it as my GoTo bike for about three years now. It has some shortcomings, but those are due to the XC inspired geometry, more than anything.

The Zorro is now available with a tapered headube, a more relaxed head angle and is designed around a 160mm front fork. The rear travel is adjustable from 5 to 7 inches and it can accommodate 26, 27.5 or 29 inch wheels. The dreaded pogo/catapult which everyone claims is inherent in the design simply does not happen with the Zorro. To tell the truth, I've never had it happen on my Schwinn either. Apparently, modern shocks took care of that issue once installed in place of the original coil sprung rear.

I had the pleasure of riding John C's personal ride for a couple of weeks in August and was STOKED how well it descended. I got together with him last week and got measured for my build and gave him the deposit to get started. Between his schedule and mine, we agreed to a delivery sometime around the first of the year.

Here's a pic of his as ridden for two weeks in August. I get to pick colors when it's time and am thinking of honoring the original as built by Schwinn, with a bassboat color. We'll see.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

chuckha62 said:


> I just ordered my Castellano Zorro.
> 
> Lot's of folks dismiss all URT designs out of hand, but I'm not going into this blind. I like the design, particularly as an SS.
> 
> ...


That is awesome! If they made a cheaper model, I'd be buying it.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

Looks like the frame is done and is now ready for the powdercoater. Just need to finish ordering some parts and Ill be ready for when it arrives.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

Did you end up ordering the frame?



> Stoked to see your order went well so far with Ferrum - I am currently thinning the quiver and getting ready to place an order for the 170 semi custom w/ 63 HTA and a slightly longer reach in the 490 range. Cant wait:thumbsup:


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Here's a prototype of a new bike. Only one size so far, similar geo, design, and travel to others. Looks pretty sweet though.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-morph-cycles-new-steel-full-suss.html


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## mnt_goat (Aug 24, 2018)

rherman said:


> Looks like the frame is done and is now ready for the powdercoater. Just need to finish ordering some parts and Ill be ready for when it arrives.
> View attachment 1288015


Really looking forward to hearing what you think about the frame once you've had a chance to ride it. I can't find any info about this frame other than what's on this thread, Ferrum's website and instagram page.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

Will do. I plan on posting as much as I can about it. They are pretty new as a company so there is not a whole lot out there yet. Both my tenant and I will do our own reviews riding it. Im coming from a 2014 26" Giant Reign X so its going to be quite the difference. 

I should have the frame in about a week or so. Just working on getting some final parts together to complete the build. Kind of went over budget on the frame so getting a mismatch of parts together to get riding and will upgrade from there. Ill post photos/video and a review as soon as I can. I am trying to help get a more information out there about them and the frames.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Another UK manufacturer. Project 12 Cycleworks Vertigo.

Vertigo - project12 Cycleworks

Fillet brazed, lots of adjustability built into the frame to adjust geo, travel, wheels size, etc. Sounds pretty cool.

https://www.instagram.com/project12.cycleworks/?hl=en

It's a good lookin bike too. I like that it's a little shorter travel. 115mm rear or 137 rear.


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## Tristan Wolf (Oct 21, 2019)

I understand somewhat their appeal. Also, in the custom frame market steel is by far the easiest material to work with (unless you are some bamboo master). However FS and „steel" in the same sentence reads out as HEAVY.
Still I wonder what its like cause one of the main points of regular steel HT crowd is that steel is more forgiving. But given that fact, I wonder does that mean its even more laterally flexy (thx to those pivots).
However I guess one would not make linkages out of steel? I guess CNCd aluminium makes much more sense.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

What is the intended use for these bikes, downhill? They do weight in at 35lbs depending on build. I wonder if there's any advantage on trails. I'm not a weight weenie but I am spoiled and jaded riding a sub 25lb hardtail. I really do like the looks of the Ferrum and cost is reasonable for semi-custom US builds. I have an email to them to see if they'll adjust the angles for 140mm fork and shorten chain stay some.


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## WilliamK (Jul 29, 2009)

Around the 140mm travel mark they are super fun trail bikes. Playful and rewarding. These newer ones pedal really well and are a pleasure to trial ride.

31lb (14kg) is very achievable.


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

I have six bikes currently. Five of them are steel--four rigid bikes of various types, and one hardtail. I like steel. However, the sixth bike is an aluminum frame FS bike. As far as I know, typical FS designs are meant to work such that the suspension handles the wheel movement, and you want the frame--both front and rear triangles--to be as rigid as possible. The exception that I know of is that on some FS bikes, including some Konas and Orbeas, the rear triangle is designed to flex, to obviate the need to have pivots merely to accommodate a few degrees (<5 degrees) of movement around/near the rear hub. This works fine for carbon, but seems a bit iffy for aluminum (though Kona had at least one flex triangle design in aluminum a couple of years ago, I know). If there is a frame designer or structural engineer here who knows better, please correct me, as i am neither.

If I am right, then the flex that you get from a typical rigid steel frame, which is the source of the legendary steel ride, is not needed or desired in a full suspension frame. A good hydroformed aluminum frame is really good at being rigid at a relatively low weight. I like aluminum FS bikes because 1) they are cheaper than carbon and 2) I believe carbon frame production is bad for the environment. I see one advantage of a steel FS frame vs aluminum, though, which is that it is probably less likely to fail catastrophically than an aluminum frame.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Steel 'flex' is something that CAN be, not something that HAS to be.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

From what I'm gathering, weight is a pound or two more than aluminum which is fairly expensive to get below 32lbs. The real question is...do you like single pivot suspension? That seems to be used in the majority of the builds. I wonder how hard it is to create other suspension designs with mixed AL, CF and chromo.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Another UK manufacturer. Project 12 Cycleworks Vertigo.
> 
> Vertigo - project12 Cycleworks












Amazing looking bike. They are from the Netherlands not the UK though just to give credit where it's due. 

I'd love to swing a leg over one. :thumbsup:


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Steel single pivot, done right:
> 
> View attachment 1250465
> View attachment 1250466
> ...


Who makes the silver bike with the snow in the background? That one looks like it'll have no kickback and still be a light enough trail ride.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

scycllerist said:


> Who makes the silver bike with the snow in the background? That one looks like it'll have no kickback and still be a light enough trail ride.


They're all made by the same person.
The idler helps a lot as far as 'kickback'. The silver one doesn't have a floating brake, but most of the others do, which also helps out on single pivots.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

scycllerist said:


> What is the intended use for these bikes, downhill? They do weight in at 35lbs depending on build. I wonder if there's any advantage on trails. I'm not a weight weenie but I am spoiled and jaded riding a sub 25lb hardtail. I really do like the looks of the Ferrum and cost is reasonable for semi-custom US builds. I have an email to them to see if they'll adjust the angles for 140mm fork and shorten chain stay some.


Well my Ferrum just arrived. I only managed to get it opened up last night out in the dark on the deck. Im Super pumped and think it looks sick. The quality seems to be top notch and I cant wait to build it up. I tried to do a bit of an un-boxing video but it was dark and cold and don't think it will look all that great when I upload it. It was also well below zero and I didn't want to spend all that much time standing out there.

Attached are some photos. Special thanks to the guys from Ferrum as they were amazing to deal with and I think anyone would be pleased to order one. I will be building it up this weekend with the parts I have on hand which is a mix of older used stuff from previous bikes and some newer parts. Ill let you know how the first ride feels compared to my older reign x.

Cheers


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Looks good. Enjoy the new bike.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Nice!! what's our intended use? Keep us posted.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

Its going to be my one bike for everything. A few days in the park, an Enduro or two this next summer and the usual trails around the area.


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## phongvo666 (Jan 4, 2018)

Oh man, that look awesome, I'm having my Marino full suspension on progress , inspired by the Starling MurMur, can't wait.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

What's it weigh as we're seeing it?!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

scycllerist said:


> What's it weigh as we're seeing it?!


If you're concerned with the weight, a steel full suspension frame probably isn't for you.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

*OneSpeed* said:


> If you're concerned with the weight, a steel full suspension frame probably isn't for you.


Maybe, like I keep saying I'm spoiled with the EPO. However, steel FS isn't much heavier than AL and a FS is on the radar. I'm going to follow this thread through and figure it out from there. I'd love to support Ferrum and may just do that, don't know yet.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

scycllerist said:


> Maybe, like I keep saying I'm spoiled with the EPO. However, steel FS isn't much heavier than AL and a FS is on the radar. I'm going to follow this thread through and figure it out from there. I'd love to support Ferrum and may just do that, don't know yet.


It's rad. Don't weigh rad.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

*OneSpeed* said:


> It's rad. Don't weigh rad.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to *OneSpeed* again.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> It's rad. Don't weigh rad.





slapheadmofo said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to *OneSpeed* again.


Signature worthy.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Very nice! Looking forward to seeing it built and ridden.

I believe it weighs right at awesome.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

scycllerist said:


> What's it weigh as we're seeing it?!


With the shock, bottom bracket and rear axel it's 10.4 lbs. (incorrectly stated this prior to editing) I think built up will be around 37. No carbon anything and all cheaper components to get rolling. About what all of the bikes I have had in the past have weighed between 34-37 lbs and have no problem pushing them around. So it will be at the top end of weight but not running tubeless if that makes much of a difference.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

Well got it out on a snowy ride and it feels so good. Unfortunately it was on a road a short single track due to time limitations. I am hoping that I can get out this weekend if time permits for a proper ride. One of my usual quick loops, connector and Rocky screech in the Crawford riding area in Kelowna.

It's one that I know quite well and will be able to get a good feel coming off an older giant reign x 26er.

Built it up on as much of a budget as possible as I originally wasn't planing on buying a whole new frame set from Ferrum but it was too good of a deal. So the rest of the parts are about as budget as you can get. Had to pretty mich beg, borrow and steal parts off the old bike to get it completed. But it rides super nice and can't wait to get it out on a proper trail.

Weight as it stands is 37 lbs of steel and AL goodness


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

An interview/podcast with Starling Cycles.






(the first 12-14 minutes is a little OT and slow, gets better after that)


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## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

Steel bike are heavy. Cool story bro.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Zerort said:


> Steel bike are heavy. Cool story bro.
> 
> View attachment 1303273


You set a bad example. You've ruined the myth that steel bikes are heavy. Clearly your scale is broken. 

At least it looks sweet though. Nice build!


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## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

*OneSpeed* said:


> You set a bad example. You've ruined the myth that steel bikes are heavy. Clearly your scale is broken.
> 
> At least it looks sweet though. Nice build!


Thanks.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I've had 2 single pivot Ellsworth Jokers since 2000. I've always loved the ride and the pedaling efficiency. The 2000 frame, a medium, cracked at the TT/ST junction, which I realized was using an awful lot to the Thomsen 400 mm seat post on, that undeniably was putting too much tension on that part of the frame. 

Tony E. was very good with me.....he coulda denied the warranty claim based upon me ordering a frame a size too small for me; I'm 6' tall have a 32" inseam, and weighed 200#, the long legs making the need for so much hence the need for so much post. But 
instead, he sent me a size L frame, with a special cnc'd shock attachment I could just bolt to the to mount of my shock, and thus keep it the 6" travel bike I was used to. Eventually, I opted for taking it off, and swapping the RP23 for a Man. 3-way swinger, the 
air version. This made the frame a 175mm travel one, that retained it's climbing and pedaling performance at the same level that blew my buds away on long FR climbs. I slipped a 170 mm Lyric to replace the old 'Zoke 250 mm fork, and on the DH it was like a new bike. 
My rambling, pseudo point here is that I'd love to see somebody try to replicate my size L frame in steel, and check out it's ride. 
I've also been thinking about taking the existing Joker frame and turn it into a 69er, but the issue of a straight HT on my frame seems to be a solid block to that idea. 
At any rate I love the ride of this existing Joker too much to dread ever losing it. It's one 26er that never even got close to no "ash-heap of history". 

I'm sure someone here has got something to say about it. Whaddya think? I think that however maligned, Tony came with the perfect single pivot placement for this bike.
It's sturdy, stiff, and somehow, under 30 lb#s.

Whaddya think that might be with the same build/components, in steel? I loves me that steel, too.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Zerort said:


> Steel bike are heavy. Cool story bro.
> 
> View attachment 1303273


Very Nice!! Please share the details!!

Thanks


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## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

scycllerist said:


> Very Nice!! Please share the details!!
> 
> Thanks


Size Large Cotic Flaremax 29er
Fox 34SC
Carbon post, bars
Wren stem
Manitou Mcleod rear shock
Selle Italia carbon rail saddle
EE Wings crank with Look pedals
Nox Skyline wheels with 321 hubs
AliExpress 12 speed cassette
AXS shifter and derailleur
Specialized Body Geometry grips
Wolftooth oval 34T
Hope seatpost clamp and headset
Schwalbe Rocket Ron rear, Racing Ray front tire
Sram G2 4 piston brakes

Obviously no dropper so that adds a pound, and add some beefy tires like DHF and DHR II would be another 2 pounds, but it would still be under 30 pounds at that.

Even with a 130-140 Pike you would probably be right on 30 pounds even which is only about 1 pound heavier than a decent trail bike.

So anyone that says steel is heavy is full of it.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

The only weight that matters for comparison purposes is frame weight. If two frames are 1lb different the builds will end up 1lb different if you use the same parts. 

The quality steel FS frames I've looked at weigh about 1lb more than the comparable AL bike I ride. A comparable carbon frame is ~2lbs lighter than the steel frames. Does 1-2lbs really matter in terms of frame weight? In general I'd say no. The ride quality and material characteristics of a metal frame would be worth 1-2lbs extra weight to me.

That said there are examples of each type of frame where some poor engineering was done and they weigh a couple pounds more than other frames of the same type. Would I buy a steel frame that was 4-5lbs more than a carbon frame? Probably not. I'd buy one of the better engineered steel frames that was ~2lbs heavier than carbon and reward the company that put the effort in to make an efficient design. 

Since bicycles are human powered you can't add endless amounts of weight without having an impact on performance, but if you are talking differences of 1-2lbs of non-rotational weight than I can't see how it matters. Beyond MTBR/parking lot bragging rights.


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## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

vikb said:


> The only weight that matters for comparison purposes is frame weight. If two frames are 1lb different the builds will end up 1lb different if you use the same parts.
> 
> The quality steel FS frames I've looked at weigh about 1lb more than the comparable AL bike I ride. A comparable carbon frame is ~2lbs lighter than the steel frames. Does 1-2lbs really matter in terms of frame weight? In general I'd say no. The ride quality and material characteristics of a metal frame would be worth 1-2lbs extra weight to me.
> 
> ...


Like I said above. 1 pound difference


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

vikb said:


> That said there are examples of each type of frame where some poor engineering was done and they weigh a couple pounds more than other frames of the same type. Would I buy a steel frame that was 4-5lbs more than a carbon frame? Probably not. I'd buy one of the better engineered steel frames that was ~2lbs heavier than carbon and reward the company that put the effort in to make an efficient design.


Back in the 90s, the poor engineering went the other way as well. They were able to come up with steel hardtail frames around 3.9, 3.8lbs maybe close to 3.5, but they were unacceptably noodly and the tubing too thin. You don't see anyone going as extreme anymore. So while they could get the weight down, there were compromises. One of the benefits of a steel bike should be lots of lateral stiffness, but you can't build it like a toothpick (even if it looks like a toothpick because steel tubing is stiffer and stronger in smaller sizes).


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

vikb said:


> The only weight that matters for comparison purposes is frame weight. If two frames are 1lb different the builds will end up 1lb different if you use the same parts.
> 
> The quality steel FS frames I've looked at weigh about 1lb more than the comparable AL bike I ride. A comparable carbon frame is ~2lbs lighter than the steel frames. Does 1-2lbs really matter in terms of frame weight? In general I'd say no. The ride quality and material characteristics of a metal frame would be worth 1-2lbs extra weight to me.
> 
> ...


All good points. That leaves the suspension differences. I don't know if there are any single pivot kick back concerns. I know it can be engineer out with sprocket at the pivot but that adds some complexity. It's a shame it's so hard to do more test rides.


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## Herdwick (Dec 18, 2014)

any marino steel fs owners here? just placed an order of a custom geo one and although I looked around not much info on the net, went for it any way as when contact them they were pretty good to work with and straight forward on what they offer


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

rherman said:


> With the shock, bottom bracket and rear axel it's 10.4 lbs. (incorrectly stated this prior to editing) I think built up will be around 37. No carbon anything and all cheaper components to get rolling. About what all of the bikes I have had in the past have weighed between 34-37 lbs and have no problem pushing them around. So it will be at the top end of weight but not running tubeless if that makes much of a difference.


So about the same an an Aluminum Transition Sentinel... maybe a touch heavier?


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

Herdwick said:


> any marino steel fs owners here? just placed an order of a custom geo one and although I looked around not much info on the net, went for it any way as when contact them they were pretty good to work with and straight forward on what they offer


it's interesting how you order a frame from marino - not by size, but by dimensions. pretty much guarantees custom fit if true. $550 for a FS frame? did i read that right?


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

Probably pretty close. Maybe still a bit heavier than the Sentinel. Ill have to do a final check on the weight now that it is finally built up and ready to ride. Its just too bad its been dumping snow here the last few weeks. Im itching for a proper ride so I can put up a solid review of the bike.

As for the comments on Marino, my tenant ended up going that route due to the price and a bit of the flexibility. Ill put up some comparisons of the build between the two frame makers once it arrives. I almost went with a Marino but the build kit with Ferrum was pretty much going to end up almost the same as a Marino frame and buying all new parts that came with the kit. I know I could go used but I like the full warranty for the expensive bits and the lifetime warranty for the frame.

Ill post more once I actually get a chance to ride and even compare both frame builds.


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## Herdwick (Dec 18, 2014)

starts at 550 depending on what you add, like internal cable routing, sliding dropouts, internal rear brake and shifter routing etc, but yes the custom geo/size is what made up my mind.
I hope works out good, fingers crossed !


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## Herdwick (Dec 18, 2014)

rherman said:


> Probably pretty close. Maybe still a bit heavier than the Sentinel. Ill have to do a final check on the weight now that it is finally built up and ready to ride. Its just too bad its been dumping snow here the last few weeks. Im itching for a proper ride so I can put up a solid review of the bike.
> 
> As for the comments on Marino, my tenant ended up going that route due to the price and a bit of the flexibility. Ill put up some comparisons of the build between the two frame makers once it arrives. I almost went with a Marino but the build kit with Ferrum was pretty much going to end up almost the same as a Marino frame and buying all new parts that came with the kit. I know I could go used but I like the full warranty for the expensive bits and the lifetime warranty for the frame.
> 
> Ill post more once I actually get a chance to ride and even compare both frame builds.


it would be interesting to see both compared!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Herdwick said:


> it would be interesting to see both compared!


Indeed! If it's a good/detailed comparison it may even deserve its own thread, But make sure you (rherman) at least post a link here.


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

the ferrum looks really nice.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Good article. The frame builders discuss the benefits of building with steel.

https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-ge...t-steel-full-suspension-mountain-bike-frames/


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Good article. The frame builders discuss the benefits of building with steel.
> 
> https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-ge...t-steel-full-suspension-mountain-bike-frames/












That Project 12 Vertigo is hot. I won't be surprised if I buy one. They won't sell to the US/Canada for liability reasons under their current insurance so I'd have to go to the EU for a holiday and come home with a frame. Sounds like a reasonable plan.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

The gullible go flocking to the new thing bicycle companies are putting out there.
They have the money to waste.



eshew said:


> I'd say go for it, historically speaking I'm reluctant to try anything new... it may also be because I'm incredibly cheap.
> 
> I agree with you from the rust standpoint, sure you may get some surface rust, but certainly not destructive in terms of weakness.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Huh? I don't think using steel for bikes is a new thing...


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Very nice looking bikes. Makes me want to be a stronger rider so I could justify one. Up coming medical issues have me sticking with my light tight hardtail.


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## Lenz43 (Jan 31, 2008)

This to share my new Vertigo by Dutch Fabricator Project12 Cycleworks mentioned above
https://projectxii.nl/en/.

Mock-up on frame ready for paint









A few months ago I was pondering a new 100mm XC frame for 2020; Santa Cruz Tallboy, Yeti SB100 and the likes. In an online discussion topic Michiel of Project12 Cycleworks suggested why not custom steel? Love for steel all right, but that does not make a competent XC bike. And mind you, this is to be my Go-To every Sunday weekend-warrior-50km-ride-with-my-mates bike.

So I tested the green prototype Project12 Vertigo shown in the pictures in this thread, and another Vertigo owned by Lars a former bikemagazine test editor, a size Large XC oriented Vertigo in 29". And we talked bikes over a coffee, and another coffee.

Both bikes ride really well, I will say remarkably well for a small builder. Turns out some really savvy Dutch bike designers supported the development, and did good. The 27,5" bike with real trail tires mounted and a sturdy parts spec never "felt" sluggish. And the 29" XC bike was outright fast, Strava medals fast. And not unimportantly, both bikes were mechanically solid and quiet. No creaks, no bolts loose, no play in the pivots. That's an achievement, and thus the Vertigo became a contender.

So we exchanged ideas and drawings, fired Q&A over WhatsApp and landed on a design. Plus we developed a good understanding, so I confirmed the order and Vertigo Project 12.023 was GO, the tubes could be ordered.










With the Project12 signature dropouts









This is another area where Michiel earned my respect. I gave him a spec sheet: 100mm travel, Boost spacing, 29x2.4 and 27.5 x 2.8-3.0 tires to fit and a single 36t chainring on the crank. With sound engineering and creativity he consolidated it all in a new Yoke design in his Vertigo concept.










The concept centers around the spine that is the seat tube and bottom bracket cluster. It contains all hardpoints for the rear suspension pivots and damper mounts. And in the useable seat angle range a full custom geometry can be spec'ed by the client. And it works, giving an array of options. What is left to do is "just" to express the client fitting and build requirements in steel. And that takes a combination of communication, creativity and craftsmanship.

And this is the product, a vision in steel









It has been really special to see Michiel craft this frame step by step. The expression of a vision in steel that began as a concept on a napkin over a coffee. Every detail what is on the frame or not on the frame for that matter has been thought through to make a conscious choice. With the frame now being prepped for paint waiting for it to be ready is getting nigh-on impossible to do.

The pictures are of a mock-up with some choice parts to give an idea of the bigger picture,

Enjoy!!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ that is SWEEEET! Congrats!

I've seen this thing on Instagram for the last week, so cool! I want one!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Yes. That's a beauty for sure.


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## JimmyC (Dec 19, 2005)

Beautiful bike!!


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## j-t-g (Aug 15, 2013)

Alright, I'll bite.

Here's my 2017 Daambuilt. Peter Daam builds bikes out of Montreal, Canada (Formerly of North Van). Mine's I think the longest travel bike he's done, most are hard tails or trail-ish. He's done some pretty wild stuff but most of the full-sus bikes seem to be developing somewhat of a signature look.

Peter is an engineer by trade and was awesome throughout the design process of this bike. Rolling in to the year 2020, there's a few things I'd change about it, but when you also consider what else was around in 2017, I think we were pretty on point with most of our geo and Peter did a great job designing the suspension.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

Just found this via the Formula instagram account, high pivot goodness.


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## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

shapethings said:


> Just found this via the Formula instagram account, high pivot goodness.


This or the Druid? Hmmmm


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Pipedream is teasing their FS Full Moxie. The product page is PW protected, but I imagine the full release should be soon. 

https://www.pipedreamcycles.com/?v=3e8d115eb4b3


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## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

I used to have a Pipedream Sirius. That bike was incredible.

That bike was Reynolds 853. If you look closely at the seat tube, I don't think this one is. - Bummer

When this one comes out, if it's not seriously heavy, it should be a contender.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

vikb said:


> Pipedream is teasing their FS Full Moxie. The product page is PW protected, but I imagine the full release should be soon.
> 
> https://www.pipedreamcycles.com/?v=3e8d115eb4b3


-edited-

out now&#8230;


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

shapethings said:


> Looks like they're using all-mountain style protective frame guard with the honeycomb pattern in that photo. Anyone use it?


I have used:

- Shelter Tape
- AMS frame protection
- various clear protection tapes [ie. Bike Armor]

I'd rank them in that order for protection.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

Zerort said:


> This or the Druid? Hmmmm


If I were to buy a carbon bike, Druid would probably be it. But that AC TO 5 bike (without knowing anything about it, ride characteristics etc) is pretty amazing looking.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

already posted this bike in the Twist thread, haven't taken legit glamour shots yet, but here is my Starling.

First photo the bike is angled slightly, so the mullet looks more extreme than what it really is.


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## SpartyinWI (Jun 24, 2016)

Cotic FlareMAX. They ship to US for free.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

eshew said:


> rust


Think of rust as.....

Anti Theft Measures


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

The Full Moxie. Great lookin' frame!









https://www.pipedreamcycles.com/shop/the-full-moxie/?v=7516fd43adaa

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pipedream-cycles-adds-a-bit-of-bounce-to-the-moxie-the-full-moxie.html

Doesn't come in XL, bummer. Also I find it extremely irritating that the PB article specifically mentions the sweet head badge but neglected to show it in any pictures. So I went to the Moxie website, again no pictures of the head badge. What's a guy gotta do to get a peek at a head badge??


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

*OneSpeed* said:


> The Full Moxie. Great lookin' frame!
> 
> View attachment 1323003
> 
> ...


Pipe Dream has only long and longer sizes. Users rely on the seat post for height. Longer has a 510 reach.

Looks like they finished a batch and are shipping soon. US buyers can have it shipped directly and save costs.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Well it looks like Ferrum has come out with a new short travel bike (125mm rear/ 130-150 fork). https://ferrumbikes.com/product/mv-125mm-rear-travel-chromoly-steel-full-suspension-mtb-frame/

This has got my full attention. One of the few shorter travel options I've seen. I want more details!


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## mrsa101 (Jul 19, 2011)

Had my Murmur for a year now, Its got adjustable shock mounts so im running a little shorter travel as my "trail" bike. 

I bought it almost purely out of curiosity, theres no lack of shreddy short travel bikes out there but i've always wondered what a steel full suspension would ride like. I've run it with one set of carbon wheels with no inserts, light but stiill grippy tires, and another set of aluminum wheels with cush cores and an assegai/aggressor combo. with the light tires, its a FAST bike, pedals ridiculously well. it just doesnt have the tire grip to match what the frames capable of so i've spent more time on the burly setup. 

The grip and ground tracking they talk about with a steel bike is definitely a thing, I dont think i've ridden a bike that does better in off camber and flat corners. my biggest frustration with it, and i'm still not sure what the cause is, is suddenly losing the front end on fast, rough corners. Had some really big falls, and plenty of sketchy moments. I'll have the bike leaned over in a fast corner, hit a couple rocks that im used to being able to handle on my other bike, and the front end seems to ping off and completely lose any traction. all my bikes before this were 160 f/r travel, and this only has a 140 front, so im wondering if its more the fork, or if this flex in the frame on those big hits with the bike leaned is causing the front to flex out of the way, rather than say a stiff carbon bike keeps forcing the front tire into the ground? It does it on both wheelsets, surprisingly almost less with the carbon.

anyway, dont want to knock the frame because theres a good chance that im just expecting to be able to hit these corners on my 140 fork at the same speed i hit them with a 160, and i probably shouldnt be, im just surprised it happens as much as it does.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Well it looks like Ferrum has come out with a new short travel bike (125mm rear/ 130-150 fork). https://ferrumbikes.com/product/mv-125mm-rear-travel-chromoly-steel-full-suspension-mtb-frame/
> 
> This has got my full attention. One of the few shorter travel options I've seen. I want more details!
> 
> View attachment 1329651


Yup, darn close to nailing it. Or should I say....


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## Lenz43 (Jan 31, 2008)

*Project12 Cycleworks Vertigo*

My Project12 Vertigo is back from paint

Enjoy!!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Lenz43 said:


> My Project12 Vertigo is back from paint
> 
> Enjoy!!


Damn...she's nice.


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## OldHouseMan (Dec 7, 2006)

All of these English steel FS bikes look really nice. The biggest factor holding me back is North American support. Cotic is doing some cool stuff with the RocketMax and FlareMax, but the chainstays are a bit long for my taste, so it would be nice to ride one first. They do offer a return policy if you're not satisfied, but I would feel like a dick returning it knowing that I may not like it going in.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

OldHouseMan said:


> All of these English steel FS bikes look really nice. The biggest factor holding me back is North American support.


There is not much to go wrong with a steel single pivot bike. I get stuff from the UK in the mail to Canada in a week so not particularly terrible wait for a small part. I have considered the Cotic RocketMAX as I rode with a guy here who had one and it looked great. If I ordered one I'd get a spare derailleur hanger and a spare set of bearings when I had the bike shipped to me since those are the two items I'll need at some point.


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## Millennial29erGuy (Feb 5, 2017)

Lenz43 said:


> My Project12 Vertigo is back from paint
> 
> Enjoy!!


wow that thing is cool


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## field_c (Jul 29, 2005)

I've had my Murmur for a couple of months now. I'm running a CC Coil IL shock with progressive spring with 145mm travel and a 160mm Lyrik fork up front.

Totally agree with the "grip like velcro" feeling on corners and over the rough stuff. I've had many carbon and alloy bikes, and it does feel uniquely planted. This has its disadvantages when trying to get up climbs quickly though, and I've just got used to the idea of "getting there when I get there" rather than pushing it harder to get up climbs quicker. I'm not having any of the problems mentioned with losing the front end on corners, so maybe try out a 150 or 160mm travel fork. BTW - I'm also running a 35mm stem and 800mm wide handlebar.

I'm also riding my 29er alloy Lenz Behemoth with CC IL Coil shock with 125mm travel a lot. Shorter travel and shorter chainstays make it feel incredibly snappy and nimble in comparison, but does feel sketchier on rooty sections and steeper downhills than the Murmur.

DrChris



mrsa101 said:


> Had my Murmur for a year now, Its got adjustable shock mounts so im running a little shorter travel as my "trail" bike.
> 
> I bought it almost purely out of curiosity, theres no lack of shreddy short travel bikes out there but i've always wondered what a steel full suspension would ride like. I've run it with one set of carbon wheels with no inserts, light but stiill grippy tires, and another set of aluminum wheels with cush cores and an assegai/aggressor combo. with the light tires, its a FAST bike, pedals ridiculously well. it just doesnt have the tire grip to match what the frames capable of so i've spent more time on the burly setup.
> 
> ...


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## Lenz43 (Jan 31, 2008)

*Project12 Cycleworks Vertigo Build pics*

The Vertigo is almost GO 

Thanks to Michiel of Project12 Cycleworks who also deserves credit for the pictures and Lion of Cyclepapint Goes for the Artwork. (Both in the Netherlands)

Full build as pictured including pedals and 2.4"tires on 30mm rims weighs in at 28 lbs or 12.6 kg. That will do me fine. But no shakedown ride just yet, front brake needs tweaking a bit to fit the RS-1.

Enjoy!!


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

Anyone here have any experience with Marino Bikes?


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

mrpercussive said:


> Anyone here have any experience with Marino Bikes?


I've seen a couple threads on them, not sure about the full suspension stuff though?

https://forums.mtbr.com/bike-frame-...full-sus-frames-anybody-have-one-1115251.html

https://forums.mtbr.com/26-27-5-29-plus-bikes/plus-bike-marino-owners-chime-1122687.html


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

OldHouseMan said:


> All of these English steel FS bikes look really nice. The biggest factor holding me back is North American support. Cotic is doing some cool stuff with the RocketMax and FlareMax, but the chainstays are a bit long for my taste, so it would be nice to ride one first. They do offer a return policy if you're not satisfied, but I would feel like a dick returning it knowing that I may not like it going in.


Riders on the other side of the pond seem to like a longer chain stay. Maybe their trail systems are not as tight as in central PA. GMBN shows more open systems.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Marino full sus frame I had came with poor alignment and rear swingarm flex. Pivot bearings toast in 600 miles. The cross brace had its threads stripped, which I suspect was due to flex. I fear for the health of my rear shock. It was basically like a taste of a Murmur.

Good for geo experimentation I guess. If I try Marino again, I'd stick to HTs. You get what you pay for.

Here's a new one from Swarf. Seems longer travel than the Contour (green frame in attached pic), with comically extended top/downtubes and a little bend in the downtube by the lower shock mount. I think the beefier stays might be an experimental thing. Was named Vortex in proto stage, but it was trademarked. Longer seat post insertion too.

Specs: 29” wheels, 155mm rear travel, 160mm fork, 77degree seat angle, 63.5 head angle, threaded BB, external cable routing, metric trunnion shock, air or coil.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Interesting that they are using flex stays instead of a rear pivot.

People on PB were lampooning a carbon Enduro frame that used that design last week. Pretty common on XC race bikes (Orbea, Spec, Cannondale, Scott, and plenty of others) but not really used for longer travel applications.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> Interesting that they are using flex stays instead of a rear pivot.
> 
> People on PB were lampooning a carbon Enduro frame that used that design last week. Pretty common on XC race bikes (Orbea, Spec, Cannondale, Scott, and plenty of others) but not really used for longer travel applications.


In this video, he shows how little resistance that flex stay has.

https://videos.mtb-news.de/52987/ihr_fragt_wir_antworten_last_tarvo


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

That Swarf looks nice. Too bad they won't sell bikes to Canada or the USA.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Interesting that they are using flex stays instead of a rear pivot.
> 
> People on PB were lampooning a carbon Enduro frame that used that design last week. Pretty common on XC race bikes (Orbea, Spec, Cannondale, Scott, and plenty of others) but not really used for longer travel applications.


I agree it seems less common on longer travel bikes.

My carbon Hei Hei uses flex stays. They don't move much when you cycle the rear end. I think there's plenty of flexibility in both steel and carbon to handle it (assuming proper engineering).


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> Marino full sus frame I had came with poor alignment and rear swingarm flex. Pivot bearings toast in 600 miles. The cross brace had its threads stripped, which I suspect was due to flex. I fear for the health of my rear shock. It was basically like a taste of a Murmur.
> 
> Good for geo experimentation I guess. If I try Marino again, I'd stick to HTs. You get what you pay for.


Rad thanks! What about Majin? I remember them from a decade ago... seems like they're coming back?


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

mrpercussive said:


> Anyone here have any experience with Marino Bikes?


I just emailed pipedream to see what the non-Vat cost of the full moxie is, I think that would be the ticket.

Also posted above: Ferrum bikes out of Las Vegas have some good prices for US made.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

Actofive article on Pinkbike today, that thing is a beauty.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-genesis-of-actofives-high-pivot-trailbike.html


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

shapethings said:


> I just emailed pipedream to see what the non-Vat cost of the full moxie is, I think that would be the ticket.
> 
> Also posted above: Ferrum bikes out of Las Vegas have some good prices for US made.


those Ferrum frames look pretty sick! The pipedream geo might be a little too long for me...


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

mrpercussive said:


> those Ferrum frames look pretty sick! The pipedream geo might be a little too long for me...


Full Moxie geo seems on par with Enduro 2020, Sentinel V2...

The smaller of the two sizes is an incremental step longer than the current mainstream bikes, which run about 435mm CS, 1230mm WB, 76 STA and 460-470mm reach.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

mrpercussive said:


> those Ferrum frames look pretty sick! The pipedream geo might be a little too long for me...


I recently built up my Starling and was sketched on how long the large was. But Joe @Starling convinced me that is the way to go and it actually feels great. I'm 5'10.5" for reference if that helps.

"Long" Pipedream: Effective TT 604mm; Reach 470mm
L Starling Twist: Effective TT 628mm; Reach 485mm

The Ferrum build kits seem pretty reasonable.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Is that a brake brace on the drive side? That will hit the chain...

Also concerned about the braces being stress risers on the pivotless design.


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## rherman (Jul 29, 2019)

mrpercussive said:


> those Ferrum frames look pretty sick! The pipedream geo might be a little too long for me...


Can confirm the Ferrum bikes are amazing. I came from an older Reign X 26er and love the big wheels and updated geo. I have had some decent rides on it but not as much as I was hoping due to family time and home projects. I also sold the bike before I could get out to do back to back laps between the Giant and Ferrum to get a good feel of the differences.

I can say of all of the bikes I have owned, borrowed or rented, I am now a believer of steel is real. There is something about the compliance of the frame tracking over rough bits that adds something to the ride that just makes it feel different. As mentioned before Ferrum was great to deal with and I am super happy with the frame. I cant wait until the BP is open so I can really push it and see how it handles some bigger stuff.

As for Marino, my tenant ended up going that route and had a pretty good experience. The lead time was much longer and communication was a little slower but in the end his bike looks similar to mine but completely custom designed. As for a comparison, Marino painted the frame as opposed power coating that Ferrum provided. One other note is that my tenant is a larger guy, in the 250Lb range and ended up cracking his frame. Looks like there was an area that Marino didnt fully weld and it seems some water got in there and maybe caused some rust to form and allow it to crack. But to Marinos' credit he will be sending off a new replacement frame once he catches up in orders and said to just get that spot cleaned up and welded so he can still ride the bike. Ill see if he can post some pictures over on PB. For anyone interested on Ferrum I have added some additional photos and that on the Ferrum thread over there as well.

Sorry for the longer post but just wanted to share some info. If anyone has any questions about either the Marino or Ferrum shoot me a message. I can get some responses for Marino questions from my tenant and answer any on the Ferrum.

R


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## Sanctifer (May 19, 2020)

Hey guys,
I am Gilles from France and i went there to ask rherman a few questions ( and thanks again for answers ) about Ferrumbike.
In France we have a big MTB forum with a thread about Steel Frame.
Some of them aren't in your thread so if you want you can take a look there for some new steel frames.
here is the link: Les aciers ludiques suspendus- Page 43 - Velo Vert : le VTT, tout le VTT
See you :thumbsup:


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## OldHouseMan (Dec 7, 2006)

I've been emailing with the guys at Cotic about the RocketMax. They have been very responsive and helpful. I'm close to pulling the trigger on a RocketMax with a Fox X2 shock, I just need to figure out sizing. I'm 5'9" and leaning toward the small. The medium frame size seems a bit large to me. Cotic is telling me the small will be fine, but the 15.7" seat tube is short. Any opinions on sizing?


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## Sanctifer (May 19, 2020)

I am 5'10" and would definitively go for a medium with a 40mm stem.
In your case, i would go for a medium with 35mm stem.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Living a PipeDream

https://www.pipedreamcycles.com/sho...d=60b49cac7e&mc_eid=d50cb8b0c4&v=79cba1185463


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## WilliamK (Jul 29, 2009)

*Super steel*

Wow how good are all these steel bikes. Love the Vertigo, looks amazing, but the Starlings and the Moxies, it is steel heaven.


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## happybiker (Jan 19, 2004)

More Starling pics...



Regarding being pinged off line with a 140mm fork, the bike is designed around a 150-160 fork, I wonder if that's the reason? Mine is really stable on corners, just reduced the Lyrik from 160 to 150 and have a CC DBair IL on the way.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Not a production bike but pretty cool frame. 3D printed lugs, polished stainless tubing, interesting stuff.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-m...ed-frame-hoping-to-make-steel-sexy-again.html


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

*OneSpeed* said:


> This thread is intended to discuss what steel full suspension bikes are available. Not argue their validity.
> 
> I don't think what I said was taunting, just asking a persistently negative and strongly opinionated person to move on to another thread instead of derailing and plugging up this conversation with a bunch of argumentative BS.


It's MTBR. Threads are gonna derail all the time.

I'm kinda curious to how this goes. I rode a Pedalhead for a few rides, and if my body could handle the hardtail, I would have kept it. GG at one point did the pretty welds with it, but moved away from that a couple of years ago.

Kinda interesting that steel has become a boutique thing, and I'm interested to see what full suspension designs come up.


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## bvachon (Apr 3, 2014)

I'm surprised the Actofive bike didn't get more attention. That thing looks amazing!


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## bvachon (Apr 3, 2014)

Here's a another US made one to add to the list. Hopefully they make it to production!

https://singletrackworld.com/2020/0...single-pivot-steel-full-suspension-prototype/


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## Erichimedes (Jul 30, 2010)

Really loving this thread, I'm so glad to see the love for all the steel duallies!

Wanted to post up some pics of the prototype I've been riding for about a month now. I've been planning this bike for years, and finally got enough of the design figured out and put the time aside to build it. I learned a ton from this first one, and the next proto will be even better. I plan to offer these as part of the Myth Cycles lineup soon, so hopefully you guys like the looks of it!

Quick stats:
Clearance for 29 x 2.6
145/160mm travel
65.5 HTA
76 STA
444 CS length
355 BB height (in high mode)
824 Front Center

I did a writeup on this bike, so there's more info here:
https://mythcycles.com/2020/06/21/project-z-full-suspension-prototype/


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Erichimedes said:


> https://mythcycles.com/2020/06/21/project-z-full-suspension-prototype/
> 
> "There is a bit of extra room in the swingarm, and it gives me space to use a different way of preventing swingarm flex. One of the reasons I haven't powder coated this bike is that I started out with less bracing in the swingarm, and I've been adding more in between rides to see how it affects flex. I still have one final piece of bracing to add to test the final design, but so far it's already very stiff."


That's really cool


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Good to see taller stacks on bikes too. Not sure why stacks dropped back down to 600mm, but the earlier E29 with 650mm stack felt pretty good to me at 5' 7". I think my ROS9 had a similar stack height too.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> Good to see taller stacks on bikes too. Not sure why stacks dropped back down to 600mm, but the earlier E29 with 650mm stack felt pretty good to me at 5' 7". I think my ROS9 had a similar stack height too.


At 6'3 i disagree. We can get riser bars and leave some spacers on the steerer to bring the bars up, but you can't lower the bars beyond a certain point w/o something colliding with something else. Head tube should be as tall as it needs to be to build a sturdy front triangle, and no more.

Raising the bars up like that interacts with the reach measurement, but Reach is stupid anyway.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Varaxis said:


> Good to see taller stacks on bikes too. Not sure why stacks dropped back down to 600mm, but the earlier E29 with 650mm stack felt pretty good to me at 5' 7". I think my ROS9 had a similar stack height too.


I'm all for taller stack heights. I have 80mm rise bars and some spacers on one of my bikes. There are few bar shape options as you want higher rise which is not great.

I'm 5'11" and my GF is after higher stack as well at 5'6" so we are not exactly giants.

The stack on my custom bike is 665mm and if I was rebuilding that bike today I'd make it 680mm.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Stack: I'm 6'3" and OK with a little more Stack height on bigger size frames. My last full suspension trail bike purchase has a Stack height of 625mm for size XL. It's just too short for that size and style of bike. Had to make some mods. 

I don't mind a race bike being set up aggressively with the handlebars 1.5" ish below the saddle, even for endurance racing, but on a Trail bike or a SS where I'm standing most of the time I appreciate more stack. 

I have multiple bikes with an uncut steer tube, none of which have the handlebars more than .5" above the saddle. 

We're way off topic but obviously there's a lot of variables and personal preference involved.


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## Lenz43 (Jan 31, 2008)

It is a personal thing and depends a lot on where you ride. At 6'2" my custom Vertigo above has a 1,5" drop from seat to hands by design. And since the Vertigo pictures were taken I have changed the stem from 50mm to 60mm. With 60 it feels even more balanced, keeping the front end weighted through turns. 

My 2 trail bikes are close to even, a HT with 140mm fork and a suspension rig with 160mm fork respectively. YMMV


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Portus's steel version of Alutech's ICB 2.0 (internet community-designed bike)

Doesn't look bad with the long head tube.


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## LowLow (Sep 18, 2007)

I am very close to purchasing a Murmur, but just saw the Full Moxie on this site. The Full Moxie appears to be a bit longer, slacker, etc. than the Murmur if you compare the "long" Full Moxie to the medium Murmur, which is the size I was planning on getting. 

Other than the geometry, are there any other differences between these two bikes that would cause you to choose one over the other? The Full Moxie is a bit cheaper and also available now whereas the Murmur has a 12-week wait. 

I'm guessing the Moxie will be heavier since it's 4130 steel, but don't really know much about the differences between 4130 and 853.


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## field_c (Jul 29, 2005)

I've had a Murmur for 6months and have followed the Full Moxie release eagerly:

1) Murmur is Reynolds 853 steel (if you value that more)
2) Murmur front triangle is hand welded in UK and can be customised. Rear triangle is still 853 but made in Taiwan. Moxie is a custom 4130 all made in Taiwan. I got my shock mount custom mounted at 200mm eye-to-eye length so I can run it in 127mm and 145mm mode by switching shocks (or putting a spacer in my coil shock shaft). You can get a sliding shock mount option too on the Murmur.
3) Little frame detail touches on the Murmur are really nice.
4) Suspension design is simpler on Murmur - no suspension link, just one pair of bearings to maintain.
5) Murmur has an integrated seat clamp (just a bolt) - I was a bit skeptical but have had no issues with it.
6) I chose a custom colour for my Murmur.

I've followed Pipedream for years and had a 29er Skookum for a while. You can't go wrong with either bike. Both offer exceptional customer services as well, in my experience.

Dr Chris



LowLow said:


> I am very close to purchasing a Murmur, but just saw the Full Moxie on this site. The Full Moxie appears to be a bit longer, slacker, etc. than the Murmur if you compare the "long" Full Moxie to the medium Murmur, which is the size I was planning on getting.
> 
> Other than the geometry, are there any other differences between these two bikes that would cause you to choose one over the other? The Full Moxie is a bit cheaper and also appears to be av


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## LowLow (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks, that's really helpful! Any pics of your bike?

Can you let me know how tall you are and what size you got? I'm 5'9" so I'm in-between sizes. I'm planning on getting a medium because that's pretty close to what my ride is now. The Murmur has about 10mm longer reach and ETT than my current ride and 40mm longer wheelbase. Not sure if I should go longer or not...

Also, what shock are you running? Joe suggested I get a coil shock, so I was looking at the Ohlins, but am open to anything else that might be as good or better. If it wasn't for Joe's recommendation, I'd probably get an air shock to have more adjustability and save a bit of weight.

What color did you get? I was thinking of just getting the basic color to save money and because none of the available colors "spoke to me" other than the bronze, which doesn't look to be available now.

Do you notice much of a difference between the 127mm and 145mm version of the bike? Joe seemed to think it wasn't worth the hassle...


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## field_c (Jul 29, 2005)

I got a Large (I'm 6'0") and fits perfectly. It does feel longer than my other Large size bikes (I've got lots of Knollys, and had Santa Cruz bikes, Lenz Behemoth etc) but I run a 35mm stem and 800mm bars which feels very comfortable. The seat tube angle does put you in a more forward position when seated, so it doesn't feel unusually long when climbing.

I've run both CC Coil IL with progressive coil (145mm) with a 160mm Lyrik fork and currently running CC Inline IL Air (127mm) with a 150mm MRP Ribbon Air Fork. It makes a HUGE difference. It is like a monster truck in long travel coil mode, which is great for hard core technical riding. But since switching to short travel mode, the bike has come alive and is so much more nimble but can still take the big drops. Even when I had a progressive coil on my coil shock, I would bottom out the rear suspension despite fiddling with the HS and LS compression settings. But switching to an air shock, I feel it suits the suspension design more. Or maybe I need an even heavier coil spring. But I've got a CC 450-550lb progressive spring and I weigh 85kg. 450lb springs are what I normally use. So I'm a bit hesitant to drop more money on a heavier spring.

I went for a dark blue colour. I think Joe has made it a standard colour now. I've attached a couple of pics in long travel setup.


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## Lenz43 (Jan 31, 2008)

*Project 12 Vertigo Pinion full suspension*

Michiel from Project12 Cycleworks created this piece of engineering art for Kilian Reil and the European Bike Challenge:

























More about the project here:
https://m.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-kilian-reils-custom-steel-framed-gearbox-european-bike-challenge-build.html


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Shout out to Isak Leivsson https://www.instagram.com/isakleivsson/ for building his own DH race bike. He's at Snowshoe this weekend on a slightly revised rear triangle.

Original









Ugh, bummer.









Revised


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## LowLow (Sep 18, 2007)

field_c said:


> I got a Large (I'm 6'0") and fits perfectly. It does feel longer than my other Large size bikes (I've got lots of Knollys, and had Santa Cruz bikes, Lenz Behemoth etc) but I run a 35mm stem and 800mm bars which feels very comfortable. The seat tube angle does put you in a more forward position when seated, so it doesn't feel unusually long when climbing.
> 
> I've run both CC Coil IL with progressive coil (145mm) with a 160mm Lyrik fork and currently running CC Inline IL Air (127mm) with a 150mm MRP Ribbon Air Fork. It makes a HUGE difference. It is like a monster truck in long travel coil mode, which is great for hard core technical riding. But since switching to short travel mode, the bike has come alive and is so much more nimble but can still take the big drops. Even when I had a progressive coil on my coil shock, I would bottom out the rear suspension despite fiddling with the HS and LS compression settings. But switching to an air shock, I feel it suits the suspension design more. Or maybe I need an even heavier coil spring. But I've got a CC 450-550lb progressive spring and I weigh 85kg. 450lb springs are what I normally use. So I'm a bit hesitant to drop more money on a heavier spring.
> 
> ...


Thanks. That's a sick looking bike! I may have to steal some of your ideas.  I did read in a couple of different places that the bike requires a heavier spring than you'd think, so it might be worth looking into...


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## ferrumbikes (Jul 6, 2018)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Well it looks like Ferrum has come out with a new short travel bike (125mm rear/ 130-150 fork). https://ferrumbikes.com/product/mv-125mm-rear-travel-chromoly-steel-full-suspension-mtb-frame/
> 
> This has got my full attention. One of the few shorter travel options I've seen. I want more details!


Thanks *OneSpeed* :thumbsup:

We put that on hold, it was super popular, which is crazy cool. Were trying to retool for it to be less work to fabricate so it's on hold right now. We did go slack on the geo so you can still handle rougher and rowdy trails. It was a blast.

How do you all feel about 125mm/lower travel frames? Should we keep making them? Would you buy it?



eshew said:


> They are cool, no doubt. But steel has 3 things going against it
> 
> Heavy
> Flex
> ...


I have to inform you, please know this is for informational purposes. I'm not trying to jab, you brought up great points.

"Heavy"
Sprung vs Unsprung weight does carry over into bikes too. Having a little more sprung weight will keep you planted and make you feel more stable.
Our complete built bikes with mega budget parts are coming in about 2-3 lbs heavier vs aluminum counterparts and 2 lbs heavier with mid end parts. Weight placed correctly is ideal and aids in providing a more ideal perception. If weight is placed correcty, the perception of it is diminished compared to a lighter bike (of course I'm talking 2-4lbs here, not 10-20). Carbon bikes shatter and aluminum bikes snap, they're both being beefed up quietly and gaining weight silently. The weight gap is a moot to most, to some, they can't bear the thought of a bike being 2-3 lbs heavier. I prefer it because of how it handles. For each their own.

"Flex"
That's why we love steel! Even carbon has more flex than aluminum and that's what great about it too (we're not carbon fans, too many have snapped in front of us and on us, that's why we do steel). You can engineer flex out of steel easier than you can safely engineer flex into CF and AL.

"RUST"
Coated or non coated, they'll all display some surface rust with time. There is a lot of non ferrous chemistry in chromoly so if the bike were to be overcome by rust it would be from serious ignorance, negligence or abuse. If coated internally or not the best thing since sliced bread is the 
"ProGold Steel Frame Protector Aerosol"
You blast/fog it into the seat tube, the purge holes and bb shell etc. and let it set up. It starts out super thin then it sets up as tacky as tar. They borrowed chemistry from the marine world. I know because MSDS and this other product I've used to protect my watercraft since the late 90s being identical and that stuff worked.
This stuff is a dream. Its a little messy if you're not careful but if you are it's amazing and will protect your frame for many years with proper care. Being mindful will go a long way, that's basically it.

I hope that satisfies the worries you guys may have.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

ferrumbikes said:


> Thanks *OneSpeed* :thumbsup:
> 
> We put that on hold, it was super popular, which is crazy cool. Were trying to retool for it to be less work to fabricate so it's on hold right now. We did go slack on the geo so you can still handle rougher and rowdy trails. It was a blast.
> 
> How do you all feel about 125mm/lower travel frames? Should we keep making them? Would you buy it?


I did notice it's no longer on the website, bummer. For the record I'd rather pay a little more and have a well designed, well built frame, as opposed to a more budget friendly option where some corners were cut to lower manufacturing costs.

In other words raise the price a little if necessary, just don't cheap out.



> I have to inform you, please know this is for informational purposes. I'm not trying to jab, you brought up great points.
> 
> "Heavy"
> Sprung vs Unsprung weight does carry over into bikes too. Having a little more sprung weight will keep you planted and make you feel more stable.
> ...


Don't make excuses for the products you offer. Clearly this will never be a bike for the masses, or anyone who shops at the local "Big S" department store.

These are bikes for people who know what they want.

I'd also be curious to know who we're talking to, if you don't mind.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

@FerrumBikes I noticed that the only real picture you have of the NV170 is that purple metallic photo. All the others are LV145.

+1 on *OneSpeed*'s comment about having quality manufacturing. I have a Marino with Grim Donut geo (but with ~60.5 HTA and more sensible BB height), and it came with pretty questionable clearance, alignment, and tolerance issues. I like the geo and ride quality, but wish the quality were a bit higher. I put budget parts on it, and even purposely weighed it down to over 40 lbs, but it carried it well. I was keeping pace on group rides no problem, convinced to the point that I sold all my bikes except for my emtb (super commuter).


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I've had two exact bikes with the same components and suspension. The first had a steel front triangle, the second was aluminum. Both had the exact 140mm Ventana rear with a CCDB coil and a Zoke Coil RC3 with 150mm of travel. My takes.

The first front triangle was fillet brazed by Curtlo with gussets. It was seven ozs heavier than the Al front triangle. I wouldn't use the word flex, but 'give'. The Tange Pristiege tubing could be led into a turn at speed like a slingshot effect. Think tow in surfing. Unfortunately that frame died in a head on with a dirt bike at speed.

The frame was repairable but the wait time was unbearable so I contacted Ventana who had a front triangle to me in three weeks, with Christmas in between.

The Ventana front had gussets in the same places but I had them add a chain guide mount. This front triangle was stiffer with no give but lacked the playful feel of the steel front. I felt no weight difference in the saddle.

The reason I was messing with custom full suss frames is because current geo hadn't been invented yet. The geo between the two frame was the same besides the HTA which was 1* slacker. They both were 18", 24"TT, 13"BB and 74* STA. HTA was 66.5 on the V and a degree steeper on the C. I had the C ordered in 2006 and the V ordered at the end of 09.

If it wasn't for the agonizing wait time, I would've stayed with steel.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

field_c said:


> I've run both CC Coil IL with progressive coil (145mm) with a 160mm Lyrik fork and currently running CC Inline IL Air (127mm) with a 150mm MRP Ribbon Air Fork. It makes a HUGE difference. It is like a monster truck in long travel coil mode, which is great for hard core technical riding. But since switching to short travel mode, the bike has come alive and is so much more nimble but can still take the big drops. Even when I had a progressive coil on my coil shock, I would bottom out the rear suspension despite fiddling with the HS and LS compression settings. But switching to an air shock, I feel it suits the suspension design more. Or maybe I need an even heavier coil spring. But I've got a CC 450-550lb progressive spring and I weigh 85kg. 450lb springs are what I normally use. So I'm a bit hesitant to drop more money on a heavier spring.
> 
> I went for a dark blue colour. I think Joe has made it a standard colour now. I've attached a couple of pics in long travel setup.
> View attachment 1364887


It's likely that the bike has a falling-rate or at the very least, very low amount of progression. Typically, single pivots with the shocks orientated like that are falling-rate, so they tend to not work well with a coil shock. For those types of designs to have a decent amount of progression, you have to mount the frame-side of the shock further down, so the shock makes a downward angle towards the front wheel, rather than being level. It's not really possible for a SP solid-rear triangle bike to be linear, but if the bottom-out position (compressed) was as pictured, it would be linear at that point. Once it moves past that, it's falling rate. This is likely why it works better with an air shock. Even though they made some "progressive"-damped coil shocks a few years back, they were all poor.

This is why the Guerilla Gravity has the rear triangle and shock layout that it does, to provide progression:


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Looks like Jayem is trying to say something like this, regarding the shock placement with a single pivot to get progressivity:






Craig Seekins from Avalanche isn't optimistic about progressive rate springs being able to fix the problem, compared to a progressive leverage ratio curve:


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## Erichimedes (Jul 30, 2010)

Varaxis said:


> Looks like Jayem is trying to say something like this, regarding the shock placement with a single pivot to get progressivity:
> 
> (video)
> 
> ...


Yup, exactly. Most monopivot steel full suspensions I've seen are either rising or falling rate designs, with the Starling design being the most common, and of the falling rate variety.

The whole reason I used a yoke on Project Z was to move the effective rear shock mount point _behind_ the pivot, so that I get a progressive leverage ratio. The vast majority of steel single pivots have falling-rates. However, contrary to what I would have guessed, that hasn't seemed to prevent folks from running coils on them left and right.

One advantage to the Starling design is that you get a lot of rear triangle stiffness by being able to bolt the seatstays together at the rear shock mount. With a yoke like Project Z has, you lose that and need to find stiffness elsewhere, which is where all the bracing at the front of the swingarm comes in.

But I digress. Myth is going for a rising rate FTW. 

Edit: One thing I'll add is that Craig seems to allude to rising rates only being possible with a linkage, which isn't necessarily true. Although the vast majority of the bike world uses linkages, so that's probably why he used that term.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

ferrumbikes said:


> How do you all feel about 125mm/lower travel frames? Should we keep making them? Would you buy it?


My current FS bike is a mid-travel aluminum bike with aggressive geo. A GG Smash with a -1.5 deg headset. When I get a new FS bike it will most likely be a metal short to mid-travel design [120-145mm] 29er with aggressive geometry. :thumbsup:

Of my 3 MTBs 2 are steel and 1 is aluminum. I'm not quite ready to get a Steel 4 Life! tattoo on my forehead, but I am intrigued by steel for a FS bike. When the time comes that will be one of the factors that will draw me towards a specific bike, but I wouldn't be totally shocked if I ended up on an aluminum or even a carbon frame. My choice will be based on a bunch of factors of which frame material is an important criterion.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Erichimedes said:


> Yup, exactly. Most monopivot steel full suspensions I've seen are either rising or falling rate designs, with the Starling design being the most common, and of the falling rate variety.
> 
> The whole reason I used a yoke on Project Z was to move the effective rear shock mount point _behind_ the pivot, so that I get a progressive leverage ratio. The vast majority of steel single pivots have falling-rates. However, contrary to what I would have guessed, that hasn't seemed to prevent folks from running coils on them left and right.
> 
> Edit: One thing I'll add is that Craig seems to allude to rising rates only being possible with a linkage, which isn't necessarily true. Although the vast majority of the bike world uses linkages, so that's probably why he used that term.


I think you run into 1 of two situations (from my experience with them):

1. You have to run very over-sprung, the upside is it'll pedal well, but you'll be running like 10% sag to try and achieve enough force and it'll be a rough ride.

2. You don't run it over-sprung and it works for most things, but there's a big catch: When you need it the most, it'll fail, like on the botched over-shot jump, or the drop that is bigger or flatter than you were planning after you already committed, etc. The further you go in the travel, the easier it'll get to compress. It's kind of like having to do an emergency stop in your car and that being the one time your brakes don't work well.

You can try to run a coil with the band-aids like an old fat-shaft Fox RC4 or original DHX. Crank the bottom out up all the way and use a heavier spring. These were position sensitive dampers like the 5th element. It'll still be a rough spikey ride compared to a different bike, but still an option. The problem gets to be, the harder you ride, the more you start to run into the limitations.


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## LowLow (Sep 18, 2007)

Hey Jayem. What you say makes sense to me, but I’ve asked joe at starling and he recommends coil for his bikes, so that’s what I was going to go with. Any idea why Joe feels this way? He recommended a 434lbs spring for me and I weigh 165lbs.


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## BikeBro (Nov 13, 2012)

Well, finally got my rig together earlier this week. I wanted to get a few rides in before posting/commenting. I went with a large 170mm (actually 165mm with my setup) with the DVO Onyx SC @180 and the Jade X with MRP progressive spring. Build is Hope tech V4's with stainless lines, White Industries crankset/BB and headset and MRP bash\guide. RF Atlas cash money bars, I9 stem, OURY lock ons, One Up 180mm post, One Up pedals, Hadley Hubs on Stans Flow EX (mullet) Maxxis DH/dual ply DHF both ends, Deore driveline (tired of chewing through aluminum climbing gears on pricier cassettes and eating nicer deraileurs).

So how's it ride? The thing rips. Bike absolutely eats up the chunk and takes bigger hits very well. Climbs tech uphill very well too with the Jade X. Absolute weapon and I couldn't be happier with how it's performing. Still dialing suspension in here and there, but out of the box the Jade X gets along very very well with the frame. Also super pleased with the Onyx SC (first time on DVO) and the OTT future is killer.

The guys at Ferrum were super cool throughout the whole process and very helpful. Everything was packet well and they even included a jar of touch up paint Which is over the top attention to detail in my book. To anyone on the fence, pull the trigger, you won't be disappointed


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Here's a nice review of the Full Moxie, and a brief comparison to two other steel FS bikes.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-pipedream-the-full-moxie.html


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

A new one coming down the pipes: https://theradavist.com/2020/11/kri...es-full-suspension-steel-mtb-the-snakedriver/

So far only a prototype, but looks slick to me.


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## Jetman46 (Oct 22, 2007)

Steel is Real. Here is a pic of my Starling Mumur. https://forums.mtbr.com/asset.php?fid=1272203&uid=356309&d=1606697719


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## LowLow (Sep 18, 2007)

Do any of you steel FS owners have experience running both AL wheels and carbon wheels on the same steel frame? If so, do you think the carbon wheels take away from the ride quality of the steel bike? Just trying to figure out what to do with a new Murmur frame I have on order.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

LowLow said:


> Hey Jayem. What you say makes sense to me, but I've asked joe at starling and he recommends coil for his bikes, so that's what I was going to go with. Any idea why Joe feels this way? He recommended a 434lbs spring for me and I weigh 165lbs.


Sounds like you already ordered your Starling. Listen to Joe regarding the coil, I got my Öhlins tuned from him when I bought mine.

Despite what internet keyboard warriors claim, the Starling rides like a dream with a coil (will concede a specific Starling tune might work better than off the shelf). I'm not sure if I've ever bottomed-out the rear (145mm), if I did, I couldn't tell. I've definitely went through my entire 150mm fork travel with a violent clunk on some really stupid line choices.

Carbon wheels are just going to sit in the landfill for eternity when they're broken. I would just buy some nice alloy DT Swiss or I9 wheels.

My L Starling with zero carbon is 35lbs. I just built up a 2021 Meta TR because I wanted to A/B test it against the Starling and that thing is 38lbs+!


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## Lenz43 (Jan 31, 2008)

I have got this experience but with my Inde Fab 29er hardtail. In 2011 I changed up from a nice handbuilt Stan's Flow Aluminium rim wheelset to a carbon rimmed set by the same wheelbuilder (Zoran). Both rims 23?mm internal width (remember this was 2011)

The ride of the bike transformed, light, crisp, responsive. Still looking for any downsides.
I have stuck with carbon rims ever since. Now on my 5th set (every 2nd year it seems)

I am 210 lbs, ride mellow Dutch trails mostly, but make few trips to middle mountains and once a year 2 weeks to the Alps, all on the carbon rims.

Enjoy!!


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## LowLow (Sep 18, 2007)

shapethings said:


> Sounds like you already ordered your Starling. Listen to Joe regarding the coil, I got my Öhlins tuned from him when I bought mine.
> 
> Despite what internet keyboard warriors claim, the Starling rides like a dream with a coil (will concede a specific Starling tune might work better than off the shelf). I'm not sure if I've ever bottomed-out the rear (145mm), if I did, I couldn't tell. I've definitely went through my entire 150mm fork travel with a violent clunk on some really stupid line choices.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. I did get a Starling with the Ohlins coil shock, so I think I'm set, though I'm still waiting on it.

I agree with you about the carbon wheels. But I have a set of e13 LG1 carbon rims from an earlier bike, which I was thinking about using. If I was starting from scratch, I'd go AL.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

Yeah, use what you got. Having less rotational weight is never a bad thing. 

Pandemic component shortages have been no joke. 

I gave up looking for a specific I9 wheel as they told me it would be 2021 before they were caught up.


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

mrsa101 said:


> Had my Murmur for a year now, Its got adjustable shock mounts so im running a little shorter travel as my "trail" bike.


How are the bolt holes on the adjustable plate holding up? I'm curious about their open figure-8 design, and the durability of the "tooth" between the eyes, in what seems to be potentially a fairly high stress spot.


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

New hotness from France. Madnes Stellar. https://m.facebook.com/pg/madnesbicycles/

I love that rear triangle.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

looks easy from here said:


> New hotness from France. Madnes Stellar. https://m.facebook.com/pg/madnesbicycles/
> 
> I love that rear triangle.


Does look good. Always a fan of orange bikes.


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## scoon (Aug 26, 2005)

BikeBro said:


> View attachment 1370341
> View attachment 1370343
> View attachment 1370345
> View attachment 1370347
> ...


I've been seriously considering their hardtail. This is good to hear!


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## Slow & Steady (Nov 4, 2018)

.....


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Erichimedes said:


> Really loving this thread, I'm so glad to see the love for all the steel duallies!
> 
> Wanted to post up some pics of the prototype I've been riding for about a month now. I've been planning this bike for years, and finally got enough of the design figured out and put the time aside to build it. I learned a ton from this first one, and the next proto will be even better. I plan to offer these as part of the Myth Cycles lineup soon, so hopefully you guys like the looks of it!
> 
> ...


I see you went live with the final version a couple months ago: Zodiac

Absolutely gorgeous.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Nice review of the Cotic FlareMax with updated frame. I love that this is a little shorter travel, a little different than most in this category which tend to be longer travel.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/cotics-updated-flaremax-gen4-2021-up-down-roundabout-country.html


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

I just saw another new beautiful slim frame posted up on pinkbike.












https://devlincc.com/



It gave me sticker shock, though: $9000 AUD for just the frame.


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## matther01 (Mar 18, 2018)

A couple more UK FS steel bikes if you haven't seen them yet. The Coalbikes 84' (left) and Swarf 155 (right).


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## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

Anyone got a long term review on either a ferrum Lv145 or a pipedream full moxie? Also interest in how much mud room both of these bikes have when running a 29x2.6” tire.


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## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

BikeBro said:


> View attachment 1370341
> View attachment 1370343
> View attachment 1370345
> View attachment 1370347
> ...


Hey BikeBro, you still on the Ferrum? What do you think now that you have had lots of time on it? Are you running a progressive coil in the Jade?


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Dream has become reality. Now just waiting for all the other parts to come in.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

I updated the OP with links. Let me know what's missing and I'll add it. Thanks









Steel Full Suspension Bikes


These seem to be gaining popularity in the small brand/hand made bike market. I love the short travel 29er segment with progressive geometry and the lure of steel makes me want one! Cotic FlareMAX, Swarf Contour, Starling Murmur (or SS Beady Little Eye!!!), who else? Seems to be gaining...




www.mtbr.com


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Here's a couple of custom bikes from the recent Bespoked show.

I love the look of this frame from Coal Cycles, great color scheme. Dual link, 29 or 27.5, 160/170. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/coal-...ravel-steel-vpp-frame-bespoked-show-2021.html










Also this Howler 150/160 27.5 high pivot bike. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/howler-frameworks-high-pivot-steel-frame-bespoked-show-2021.html


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## RETROROCKS (Sep 25, 2004)

*OneSpeed* said:


> These seem to be gaining popularity in the small brand/hand made bike market. I love the short travel 29er segment with progressive geometry and the lure of steel makes me want one!
> 
> Cotic FlareMAX, Swarf Contour, Starling Murmur (or SS Beady Little Eye!!!), who else? Seems to be gaining momentum, especially in the UK.
> 
> ...


Wondering if steel vs aluminum on a FS bike makes a big enough ride difference.
For sure on a hardtail!!
The look of it would be cool though!!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

RETROROCKS said:


> *Wondering if steel vs aluminum on a FS bike makes a big enough ride difference.*
> For sure on a hardtail!!
> The look of it would be cool though!!


Read some reviews. There are more than a handful of guys on here that swear the steel frame allows them to do things they just can't on an aluminum bike.


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

.20 : MTB Suspension | rabike







www.ra-bikes.com


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## phazedalx (Jun 22, 2007)

Have my eyes on this:


__
http://instagr.am/p/CU83rJKl57V/


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ Interesting. I like the 'outside the box' shock mounting location that allows for a straight seattube, and that they worked out the linkage for it. The only thing that strikes me as a minor drawback is the double chain tension/idler pulleys, but definitely not a deal breaker.

Never heard of Contra, thanks for sharing. Hope it makes it to production!


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## phazedalx (Jun 22, 2007)

*OneSpeed* said:


> ^ Interesting. I like the 'outside the box' shock mounting location that allows for a straight seattube, and that they worked out the linkage for it. The only thing that strikes me as a minor drawback is the double chain tension/idler pulleys, but definitely not a deal breaker.
> 
> Never heard of Contra, thanks for sharing. Hope it makes it to production!


me too!

Very interested in this. Im on a druid now and the only thing that would make it better is if it was steel!


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## misterha (Apr 15, 2011)

looks easy from here said:


> Dream has become reality. Now just waiting for all the other parts to come in.
> 
> View attachment 1949964


curious what size is the frame? The bottle position is only available on large or bigger wondering if I can get away with it on a medium if I get a little custom done.


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

misterha said:


> curious what size is the frame? The bottle position is only available on large or bigger wondering if I can get away with it on a medium if I get a little custom done.


Large

You can differentiate between the L and XL by absence/presence of a gusset from the seattube to the top tube.

You could email Joe. He's very responsive. Maybe if you get your shock mount lower and run a shock with a shorter eye-to-eye, and are willing to give up the option of a piggyback you could get him to slide it aft some? But I'm betting it will be more complicated than that, like having to raise the top tube on the seattube, which would probably push you into his full custom territory.

You could ask some of the guys on pinkbike how much clearance they have and how far back a bottle could go without interfering with anything on a stock build: https://m.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=227910


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## Hobine (Jun 16, 2004)

Maiden Voyage on this today. So smooth and quite on the trail.


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## misterha (Apr 15, 2011)

looks easy from here said:


> Large
> 
> You can differentiate between the L and XL by absence/presence of a gusset from the seattube to the top tube.
> 
> ...


thanks for the info! Yup I'm following it on there too trying to debate between the twist or murmur. How does the shock plate adjust the geo? Figure I can ask Joe that too.


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

@Hobine Gorgeous Zodiac. That was a very serious contender for me before I settled on the Murmur.

@misterha I'm not sure exactly how all it changes geo. Joe was vague about it, and I haven't been able to build it up yet to try it out and find out. If you get some specific numbers I'd love to hear them.


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## Wilbyman (Dec 13, 2016)

Hobine said:


> Maiden Voyage on this today. So smooth and quite on the trail.


That bike is actually beautiful.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Ra Bikes from the UK. They use T45 stainless which is a little different from the norm and pretty cool. They've got a 140mm Trail bike and an 165mm Enduro bike. (plus a hardtail and a few gravel bikes). I'll be interested to read a ride report. The Trail bike has a 4 position flip chip that's supposed to give a lot of adjustability. 






HOME | rabike







www.ra-bikes.com





PB Overview: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/r-bikes-stainless-steel-12-full-suspension-enduro-bikes.html


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## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

The bikes look spectacular. Interesting material choice. Even Curtis has forgone the T45 material route years ago, or at least it's not mentioned on their site nor I have ever noticed anywhere mentioned that it's stainless. Makes it even more interesting.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

New company in the UK has released details on their new "made for fun not speed" and/or "made with BMX vibes" short travel trail bike. 110/140mm. 27.5 wheels. Slack angles but sounds like they are intent on avoiding the low BB of modern 'progressive' bikes. Thoughts? 

Blurb: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-e...all-european-manufacturers-february-2022.html

Details

Frame made in UK
Custom geometry
Front travel: 140 mm
Rear travel: 110 mm (190x45 mm shock)
73mm BSA / IS disc mount / 44 mm headtube
Rear axle: 142x12 mm, 148x12 mm or 157x12 mm
Price: £3,350 (includes frame, Rock Shox Deluxe shock, stem & Wizard Works frame bag)
Website: The Combe : Clandestine
Instagram: clandestine.cc


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Starling Spur. 170/170, gear box, dual crown compatible, meant for shuttle laps. 



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-starling-spur-no-derailleur-no-worries.html


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Contra Bikes have updated the suspension layout and rear triangle. Looks pretty sweet! 

(somehow missed this article last fall). https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first...s-a-steel-high-virtual-pivot-enduro-bike.html

Warning, paywall- In Deep: Evan Turpen, Contra Bikes, and the Next Step in High Pivots










The suspension layout is pretty clever, uninterrupted seattube. I can't wait to read more about how it rides.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

REEB looks to be throwing their hat in the ring, which is awesome! 120mm! Love the shorter travel option. Every day trail bike, not full send Enduro. Good to have options! 



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/reeb-cycles-unveils-prototype-steel-sst-full-suspension-bike.html


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## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

*OneSpeed* said:


> REEB looks to be throwing their hat in the ring, which is awesome! 120mm! Love the shorter travel option. Every day trail bike, not full send Enduro. Good to have options!


This one is looking gooooood.


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## misterha (Apr 15, 2011)

*OneSpeed* said:


> REEB looks to be throwing their hat in the ring, which is awesome! 120mm! Love the shorter travel option. Every day trail bike, not full send Enduro. Good to have options!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking very slick. Also interested to see how they got that flex chainstay to give it a horst link kinematic


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Starling announced Beady Little Eye, their single speed steel full sus, in multiple sizes and 27.5 and 29in options.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I do find it interesting how Reeb is sorta riding on the popularity of steel full suspension bikes. 

It was like they said "hey, all these small UK shops are selling steel full suspension bikes like crazy, and we make steel bikes, so why don't we make a steel full suspension?" 

Then, to up the anti, they used 3d printed lugs and CNCed rockers. 

I feel bad because the Reeb is like a Made in USA Swarf 130, which was one of my favorite steel FS designs. That might not impact Swarf a whole lot for its EU sales, but anyone from the USA looking at both might be inclined to go with the Reeb. 

I'll be curious to see how big of a tire the SST can fit. If its limited to a 2.4 I'll probably be out, if it'll fit a 2.6 or larger...hmm


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Yeah, I want to say the difference between many 2.4's and 2.6's isn't that big in reality, but I also feel like if you're designing a new frame and you DON'T factor that in, it feels a bit short sighted. 

I felt this way with the Transition Smuggler a few years ago which was limited to a 2.3. They killed it after two seasons or so.


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## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

*OneSpeed* said:


> REEB looks to be throwing their hat in the ring, which is awesome! 120mm! Love the shorter travel option. Every day trail bike, not full send Enduro. Good to have options!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This one looks awesome! 130f/120r steel FS is very high on my want list!


----------



## misterha (Apr 15, 2011)

PHeller said:


> I do find it interesting how Reeb is sorta riding on the popularity of steel full suspension bikes.
> 
> It was like they said "hey, all these small UK shops are selling steel full suspension bikes like crazy, and we make steel bikes, so why don't we make a steel full suspension?"
> 
> ...


Though fyi Swarf doesn't sell to the US as they don't see it cost efficient.


----------



## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

PHeller said:


> I'll be curious to see how big of a tire the SST can fit. If its limited to a 2.4 I'll probably be out, if it'll fit a 2.6 or larger...hmm


If it could fit 2.6-2.8" range that would be awesome!


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Redlands R&C said:


> If it could fit 2.6-2.8" range that would be awesome!


Just looking at it, short travel, Downcountry ish, looking at the tires that they put on it, etc. No way they engineered enough room for a 2.8. I'm hoping a 2.4-2.5 is an option. I'd love to be wrong though.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

New from Reeb: 120mm flex stays

Nice looking bike, no specs yet, announced on PB a few days ago, made in Colorado 👍


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I'll probably see it this weekend, so I'll be able to report back. (on rear tire clearances)


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

PHeller said:


> I'll probably see it this weekend, so I'll be able to report back. (on rear tire clearances)


If you can jump on it for little test ride, I’d be curious as to how that flex design feels.

Ask about timeline to batch production too.


----------



## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Might be losing one. BTR sounds like it's closing its doors.


__
http://instagr.am/p/CawnM5WsIci/


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Got a real hard look at the Reeb SST.


2.6 Max (Designed around the Reeb favorite Vittoria Agaro 2.5)
30lbs depending on coil shock, tires and inserts.
5 year warranty but Reeb is confident flex stay will outlive the bike.
Similar pricing to the Squeeb ($2750ish)
Any color as long as it’s not raw or translucent (even clear has issue with rust)
Ride is fantastic, not the most stiff bike you’ve ever ridden, but definitely feels like an all day type bike
Im a bigger rider and I could not tell there was no pivot in the rear - is was also a very damp, quiet riding bike
top tube and seat stay lines are maintained across sizing, with the seat tube length and brace changing, and larger sizes getting a head tube gusset. Ie, rear triangle is identical between sizes.
leverage ratio avg is 2.4 and uses a 185x55 trunion
could potentially fit two water bottles in triangle

I did get the feeling that the bike is ”designed for intent” ie it’s limited to 29x2.6 tires and 120mm rear travel, but Reeb fully expects people to rock tough tires, inserts, and 150mm forks on the frame, so it’s warranty will likely be very broad.

I was told “the bike was designed to be simple and as light as a steel full suspension could get, making it longer travel would make it heavy and overbuilt, and we feel aluminum is better for that application.”

Pictured with Vittoria Syerra 29x2.4 tires:


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

*OneSpeed* said:


> View attachment 1970971



Dear god no.

Going from SS to a derailleur bike I'm always bummed at the amount of inefficiency caused by the changes of direction in the chain as it wraps through the der.

And it always feels like coming home to get back on direct drive.

This thing -- no matter how good it feels coming back down -- would kill my desire to climb or cover ground in any meaningful way.


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

MIke, I assume you're referencing the Contra?


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

PHeller said:


> MIke, I assume you're referencing the Contra?



Yes. I quoted it with the pic, but it didn't come across.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

mikesee said:


> Dear god no.
> 
> Going from SS to a derailleur bike I'm always bummed at the amount of inefficiency caused by the changes of direction in the chain as it wraps through the der.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that about this specific bike because of the suspension layout or because it's a high pivot thing with an idler? 

In other words do you feel the same way about all HP/idler bikes or is there something specific about this one that is different and I'm missing it?


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Are you saying that about this specific bike because of the suspension layout or because it's a high pivot thing with an idler?
> 
> In other words do you feel the same way about all HP/idler bikes or is there something specific about this one that is different and I'm missing it?



Neither. And, both.

A der-based bike with an idler _and_ a sprung tensioner? Good god.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Generally I think people in the market for such a bike know that going in, it's not going to pedal like a Pivot 429. And as ever, #tradeoffs.

I have a 135mm Trail bike. It's pretty sturdy and built stout with 2.5" Minions. While it initially felt significantly slower than my short travel bike, duh, I'm totally over it and realize there are only a few situations where I am notably slower, like a road climb, oh well. It's super confidence inspiring and fun in other ways.

I guess I'm saying I don't need my Enduro bike to pedal like a hardtail. Horses for courses.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Generally I think people in the market for such a bike know that going in, it's not going to pedal like a Pivot 429.



If they didn't, they will have learned quickly.


----------



## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Starling has a prototype ebike.


__
http://instagr.am/p/Ca15jzTIUqd/


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

My eyes! MY EYES!!!


----------



## misterha (Apr 15, 2011)

PHeller said:


> Got a real hard look at the Reeb SST.
> 
> 
> 2.6 Max (Designed around the Reeb favorite Vittoria Agaro 2.5)
> ...


Do you recall what the fork the frame was designed around? I'm assuming 130-140mm.


----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

looks easy from here said:


> Starling has a prototype ebike.
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Ca15jzTIUqd/


Gearbox ebike..... Fugly but I dare say its just a prototype


----------



## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Took me a while, but my new ride's finally dialed.


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

misterha said:


> Do you recall what the fork the frame was designed around? I'm assuming 130-140mm.


Designed for 130mm-150mm fork.


----------



## lotusoperandi (Aug 24, 2010)

Truly my favorite bike I've owned. Just built it up. I am loving this thing.


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

theMISSIONARY said:


> Gearbox ebike..... Fugly but I dare say its just a prototype


It's a singlespeed with pedal assist.

A jack drive isn't a gearbox. In this case, it's to allow FS and singlespeed to go together without resorting to a low-pivot bike, which typically pivot at the BB shell.






^ Starling has used a jack drive on their singlespeed DH bike.










Wonder why more external batteries aren't mounted hanging under the downtube like the Thok MIG-R. Looks like they added armor and put the battery right-side up, assuming this shot is of an earlier prototype.


----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

Varaxis said:


> It's a singlespeed with pedal assist.
> 
> A jack drive isn't a gearbox. In this case, it's to allow FS and singlespeed to go together without resorting to a low-pivot bike, which typically pivot at the BB shell.
> 
> ...


If you read the thing I quoted you will see it states it is an Ebike


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

theMISSIONARY said:


> If you read the thing I quoted you will see it states it is an Ebike


I quoted you calling it a gearbox ebike. I'm calling BS. It's a single speed with pedal assist. What part of it has a gearbox?

I didn't believe that it had a gearbox in such a compact space. Look into it yourself - FreeFlow Technologies, "harmonic wave gearbox (non-planetary)". They don't say that it can shift. They just point out that they can customize the gear reduction ratio for the bike's intended use. A single speed has a gear reduction ratio too (just one).






Basically, it's a replacement for the typical helical gears used inside competing motors. They're doing it to package the motor into a smaller cylindrical shape. Other motors can "shift" into various power modes, but these guys are trying to market this feature as a transmission... I guess you can call each power level "speeds", but that's like saying soft-pedaling, cruising, race pace, and sprinting are speeds on a single speed.






Home


E-bike motors to power road, mtb & hybrid bikes.




www.freeflowtechnologies.com


----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

Fair call I was partially wrong.... it is still fugly 

I thought it was a Kervelo Motor/gearbox sort of thing

another of the prototypes


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

*OneSpeed* said:


> These seem to be gaining popularity in the small brand/hand made bike market. I love the short travel 29er segment with progressive geometry and the lure of steel makes me want one!
> 
> Cotic FlareMAX, Swarf Contour, Starling Murmur (or SS Beady Little Eye!!!), who else? Seems to be gaining momentum, especially in the UK.
> 
> ...


it prob weight more than ebike 🥩


----------



## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Jig is up: The ‘Starling Fallacy’ Marks The Final Chapter For Our Brand - Starling Cycles

😆


----------



## phazedalx (Jun 22, 2007)

Anyone order one of those REEB SSTs?

I demoed one for the last few days and was quite impressed.

Great climber and a rocketship when you put the hammer down.


----------



## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

phazedalx said:


> Anyone order one of those REEB SSTs?
> 
> I demoed one for the last few days and was quite impressed.
> 
> Great climber and a rocketship when you put the hammer down.


I have not but I think this might be my next ride. I've been on primarily xc hardtails for the past 15 years but I want something a little more capable & this would suit me & my nearby trail networks in western MA very well.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

A couple of good ones in here. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/4-steel-bikes-from-the-2022-handmade-bicycle-show-australia.html


----------



## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

phazedalx said:


> Anyone order one of those REEB SSTs?
> 
> I demoed one for the last few days and was quite impressed.
> 
> Great climber and a rocketship when you put the hammer down.


I ordered one. I'm sooo excited for it. 
Do you remember what shock the demo had?


----------



## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

redwarrior said:


> I have not but I think this might be my next ride. I've been on primarily xc hardtails for the past 15 years but I want something a little more capable & this would suit me & my nearby trail networks in western MA very well.


Eastern MA here and I'm looking forward to my SST


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-chewmac-bikes-steel-frame-fabricators-from-quebec-2022.html


----------



## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

*OneSpeed* said:


> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-chewmac-bikes-steel-frame-fabricators-from-quebec-2022.html
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 1989620


No mention of this bike??









Disappointed in you @*OneSpeed* 

The Chewmac does look pretty.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Redlands R&C said:


> No mention of this bike??
> View attachment 1989621
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, I'm still reading about the second one. It's only been 30 minutes! It's a lot to take in. 

Don't call me out like that, I miss nothing!


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Redlands R&C said:


> Disappointed in you @*OneSpeed*


Please do try and keep up. 😜 Madnes Bicycles - Cadre VTT acier français - Fabriqués en France


----------



## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Dude, I'm still reading about the second one. It's only been 30 minutes! It's a lot to take in.
> 
> Don't call me out like that, I miss nothing!


To be fair, the second one is very.... uh...

hmmm..

"a face only a mother could love" comes to mind.


----------



## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

*OneSpeed* said:


> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-chewmac-bikes-steel-frame-fabricators-from-quebec-2022.html
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 1989620


That thing is ugly.


----------



## N-K (Feb 13, 2016)

I just built up a bike with one of those Madnes Atlas frames.








It's a really stiff frame. Great quality and not too heavy.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

93EXCivic said:


> That thing is ugly.


But the concept is quite intriguing. Do you understand what's going on there? The linkage is super cool to me! 

Generally prototypes are quite ugly and merely proof of concept. Just part of the process. 

I applaud anyone who thinks outside the box and is willing to invest their time and money on something that may lead to future improvements. 

I dig it!


----------



## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

*OneSpeed* said:


> But the concept is quite intriguing. Do you understand what's going on there? The linkage is super cool to me!
> 
> Generally prototypes are quite ugly and merely proof of concept. Just part of the process.
> 
> ...


I'd ride it. I don't understand what is going on there, but I'd give it a shot and have a blast riding it anyway.

I also like the bolt on dropouts that allow for the different wheel sizes.
And it is a nice color combo.


----------



## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

*OneSpeed* said:


> But the concept is quite intriguing. Do you understand what's going on there? The linkage is super cool to me!
> 
> Generally prototypes are quite ugly and merely proof of concept. Just part of the process.
> 
> ...


No idea. But the linkages don't bother me. It is the bent top tube plus the bent down tube and the head tube gussetting that I think makes it ugly.


----------



## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

N-K said:


> I just built up a bike with one of those Madnes Atlas frames.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This one right here.


----------



## phazedalx (Jun 22, 2007)

badsneakers said:


> I ordered one. I'm sooo excited for it.
> Do you remember what shock the demo had?


Sorry just saw this. I demo'd it with the can creek coil. Took a little bit to dial in but was good once I did. What size did you end up ordering and how tall are you?


----------



## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

phazedalx said:


> Sorry just saw this. I demo'd it with the can creek coil. Took a little bit to dial in but was good once I did. What size did you end up ordering and how tall are you?


Sweet. I was hesitant to get a coil, think I'm going to try the Topaz 2. 

I ordered a medium and I'm a little under 5'9"


----------



## snow snakes (Sep 13, 2021)

phazedalx said:


> Sorry just saw this. I demo'd it with the can creek coil. Took a little bit to dial in but was good once I did. What size did you end up ordering and how tall are you?


I ordered a Large, I’m 6’1”. Had the coil my first ride on it, didn’t love it, swapped over to the Super Deluxe Ultimate (air) and was in LOVE. going to build mine up a little lighter than my demo rig - between DPX2, DPS, or DBair IL.


----------



## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

snow snakes said:


> I ordered a Large, I’m 6’1”. Had the coil my first ride on it, didn’t love it, swapped over to the Super Deluxe Ultimate (air) and was in LOVE. going to build mine up a little lighter than my demo rig - between DPX2, DPS, or DBair IL.


Sweet! I think I'm going with the Topaz 2 on mine. If not a Super Deluxe Ultimate. I picked up a heavily discounted Pike Ultimate and some Crankbrothers synthesis wheels.


----------



## phazedalx (Jun 22, 2007)

Oh rad, psyched to hear what yall think. Im 99% sure im going to place an order this winter for next season.

Are you guys going 140 or 150?


----------



## snow snakes (Sep 13, 2021)

phazedalx said:


> Oh rad, psyched to hear what yall think. Im 99% sure im going to place an order this winter for next season.
> 
> Are you guys going 140 or 150?


My 34 is currently at 130, but I’ll probably bump it up to 140 in the long run. That seems like the sweet spot IMO.


----------



## Radu5283 (Nov 15, 2020)

Downhill steel bike?

I own an scott gambler 710 2019 and I want something else ,been riding the same bike for 3 years. I saw this bike https://www.armybikesperu.com/ds05.html

It's a steel dh bike that looks good wtih nice geo (looks like a specialized demo) ,the frame new is 950 euro, 5 years waranty.

The bike is made with 304 steel wich is meh

Looking at the rear of the bike is overbuilt and I feel like it isn't going to flex but again is steel so I really don't know.

Two friends of mine have the freeride hardtail (hammer t83) from them wich is made out of the same material and they feel great and the welds are really nice.

Should I give it a pass and look for something else?

Are steel full sus weaker than aluminium ones?

Will steel break at the first huck to flat?(big drop at bike park in my area 5-6m)


----------



## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

snow snakes said:


> My 34 is currently at 130, but I’ll probably bump it up to 140 in the long run. That seems like the sweet spot IMO.





phazedalx said:


> Oh rad, psyched to hear what yall think. Im 99% sure im going to place an order this winter for next season.
> 
> Are you guys going 140 or 150?


I'm going 140. I think that will best match my riding.


----------



## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

Steel is real at Sour with Double Choc enduro full-suspension & DM tubular Cybercrank prototypes!


Sweet Sour steel is real! 2 new prototypes tease German-made Double Choc full-suspension bike & welded tubular CrMo direct mount Cybercranks!




bikerumor.com


----------



## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

I love the bike and the cranks.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Yeah, I saw this today. Good stuff.


----------



## misterha (Apr 15, 2011)

Any reeb sst ride report? curious how it rides compare to other bike in it's category ie banshee phantom, tallboy, spur etc.


----------



## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

misterha said:


> Any reeb sst ride report? curious how it rides compare to other bike in it's category ie banshee phantom, tallboy, spur etc.


I would love to hear more too and wish I could give you a first hand report. However I like some others received an email a few weeks ago that some of the frames would be delayed do to a problem with the 3d printed yoke. My frame was one of those. 😔

I'm guessing I'll receive it towards the end of September. Hopefully sooner rather than later as I had a big race at the end of September that I wanted to use the SST for.


----------



## snow snakes (Sep 13, 2021)

misterha said:


> Any reeb sst ride report? curious how it rides compare to other bike in it's category ie banshee phantom, tallboy, spur etc.


Unfortunately I haven’t ridden any of the mentioned bikes, but I HAVE ridden an SST. My experience was that it's definitely a firm pedaling platform (rode it from the Reeb barn to the trails multiple times) when you want it to be, and the high-ish bottom bracket makes winching over stuff or pedaling straight through chunk dreamy. Only slipped out once when I was trying to get over a big square edge the Pirelli Scorpions had no business trying to grip. I live at sea level and was riding in colorado, and it definitely didn't make that suck any worse from a pedaling standpoint. Pointed downhill, it was a nice combo of poppy enough to jump over the real chunky stuff and planted enough to blast through some of it. Pure speculation, but it feels like the flex stays contributed to a pleasant amount of bottom out resistance. Pretty much a goldilocks bike if I've ever ridden one, and now I'm mad again that I can't get one right now


----------



## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

@snow snakes what shock and fork were on the one you rode? I'm guessing 140mm fork? 
Nice ride report, I'm dieing for mine to show up. Haha


----------



## snow snakes (Sep 13, 2021)

badsneakers said:


> @snow snakes what shock and fork were on the one you rode? I'm guessing 140mm fork?
> Nice ride report, I'm dieing for mine to show up. Haha


My demo had a 140mm Helm up front, and a 500# DBcoil which I quickly got swapped over to a Super Deluxe Ultimate. Honestly, I think the Ripley AF is going to tick a lot of the same boxes for me, and the geometry is really close, but that higher bottom bracket height is just irreplaceable. I was lucky enough to ride with Adam and chat with him about it, and he opined that pedal strikes cause more crashes than just about anything in rocky terrain, and I would reckon it had a great deal to do with me not crashing a single time in a half week of riding with much faster folks on unfamiliar terrain. I'm going to try to find some 165's for the Ripley and go with canfield cranks if it doesn't make enough difference, but I'm still hoping for an SST in my near future.


----------



## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

@snow snakes nice! I planned on running 170 cranks on the sst. The Ripley AF is sweet for sure. I'm sure its a bit heavier out the box but you could build it lighter and so come in at a cheaper price point. All those dudes seem to ride coil out there and I don't think that would be my best bet here in the north east. I did give it some thought though. I was having them send me a dvo topaz II shock with the frame but I'm still thinking of asking about a super deluxe ultimate.


----------



## joecx (Aug 17, 2013)

I've gotten in a few rides on my new Cotic Flaremax and getting it dialed in. It replaced a '18 Transition Smuggler that I was always paranoid about smacking a rock and cracking the carbon stays. It's just under 30 lbs. without pedals.


----------



## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

The Chromag Darco Ti was outed at Crankworx, but I'm curious if anyone knows anything about the steel version. I think that will rival the Reeb SST in both fun and cost.


----------



## phazedalx (Jun 22, 2007)

snow snakes said:


> My demo had a 140mm Helm up front, and a 500# DBcoil which I quickly got swapped over to a Super Deluxe Ultimate. Honestly, I think the Ripley AF is going to tick a lot of the same boxes for me, and the geometry is really close, but that higher bottom bracket height is just irreplaceable. I was lucky enough to ride with Adam and chat with him about it, and he opined that pedal strikes cause more crashes than just about anything in rocky terrain, and I would reckon it had a great deal to do with me not crashing a single time in a half week of riding with much faster folks on unfamiliar terrain. I'm going to try to find some 165's for the Ripley and go with canfield cranks if it doesn't make enough difference, but I'm still hoping for an SST in my near future.


I demo'd the sst on an extremely chunky trail and I've never climbed it that well. I think ill still run 165 cranks on mine though. Hoping to order this winter to have it for next season. I had a hard time with the DB Coil as well. I think I figured it out by the end. What was the air shock like on it?


----------



## snow snakes (Sep 13, 2021)

phazedalx said:


> I demo'd the sst on an extremely chunky trail and I've never climbed it that well. I think ill still run 165 cranks on mine though. Hoping to order this winter to have it for next season. I had a hard time with the DB Coil as well. I think I figured it out by the end. What was the air shock like on it?


165 cranks would be sweet, you'd never pedal strike again. The only word I can use to use to describe it with the air shcok is POPPY. Despite not being the lightest build ever, pushing just a little into the bike bounced it right up into the air.


----------



## phazedalx (Jun 22, 2007)

didnt realize the contra was up for pre order








MC


Hand-made in Santa Cruz County out of 4130 chromoly steel. The Contra MC is a long travel high-pivot frame utilizing a dual-link "Virtual High-Pivot" suspension design. Built to climb all day comfortably and descend like a bat out of hell.



contrabikes.com





anyone get one?

PB review should drop next week


----------



## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

phazedalx said:


> Anyone order one of those REEB SSTs?
> 
> I demoed one for the last few days and was quite impressed.
> 
> Great climber and a rocketship when you put the hammer down.


Mine came in last week and I got it built up, I've got 4 rides on it so far. I ordered it with the DBCoil IL, as well. 

I love it so far. I haven't ridden the latest batch of trailbikes (Spur, etc), but compared to my SBG Smuggler Carbon, this bike is far faster and the suspension performance is much better. Despite running a coil on my Smuggler, it would still have this tendency to hang up on square edges or get bogged down, to the point I felt an air shock was more appropriate on that bike to help it kindof skip over those types of things rather than try to absorb it. The SST just seems to float and glide over that stuff, continuing to accelerate, I've yet to feel where it gets bogged down. You definitely feel it more than you would on a much bigger enduro bike, but it lets you engage with the trail a lot more. When you first sit on the bike, it doesn't feel super squishy, which is a weird feeling for me coming from bigger bikes. When I first sat on it, I actually thought the rear wasn't compressing at all until I checked the bottom out bumper. It's a weird sensation but doesn't really translate to harshness on the trail IMO. I've also sent it off a few decent size drops, nothing massive, and despite bottoming out the fork the rear of the bike still stayed composed and didn't feel like I hit bottom. So it lets you engage with the trail, but it doesn't bog down or bottom out harshly from what I can tell.

I've found it fairly forgiving and composed, as well. There were a few instances I ran into something wrong or unprepared and it seemed to handle it fine. It's definitely not going to track like a big bike would, it does transmit some of the impacts to the rider, but it doesn't bog down or get out of control when it gets rough or chunky. It also pedals well and I've found it fairly easy to get the front wheel aloft on climbs. I haven't done any real technical climbs yet but finding moderately sized rocks and steps to get it up on, it does fine. It's a modern, long bike, so it isn't going to whip around like a XC bike on a climb, but it doesn't require you to take a straight line approach like a big enduro bike would.

As with all my REEBs (I've had 4 long term now, 6 total), it appears to be made really well and everything was put together properly. Despite putting it down some pretty chunky, rough descents, I've found no loose pivots or anything of that sort. I almost always find a loose bolt somewhere on new bikes, especially after a few rides (and sometimes out of the box), but that hasn't been an issue here yet. They are a great company to deal with also, IMO, but you will have to deal with the waits.

For tuning, I'm currently 215-220lbs geared up with a 650 spring. That'll be dialing down in the coming months (I'm getting out of a COVID riding/fitness rut), but despite all of that, I found I run most of the adjusters fairly open. When I had the default Coil IL settings in, it was very clearly overdamped even just bouncing in the parking lot. I opened up most of the adjusters based on this and it seemed to balance the bike out really well. Keep in mind I'm used to running my rebound a bit on the faster side than most, my RXF36 m.2 coil up front is almost full open on the adjuster with a black spring and full open with the white spring. 

The build was smooth with no issues. I haven't had a flex stay bike before, it seems to require pulling the linkage up to install the shock to preload the stays, which was a little weird but normal according to the folks at REEB. I'm running a 2.5 Teravail Ehline in the back and there is plenty of clearance, but I don't think you'll fit a large 2.6 in the back. I'll try and see later on. The rest went about as expected and I didn't see any glaring issues or faults like I have building some other bikes.

The only issue I'm having is trying to decide what fork to stick with. I liked my RXF36 on my last bike at 170, but it feels noticeably harsher at 150, mainly because it seems like I'm between the white and black springs. The white spring is too soft and the black spring is too firm. It never felt too linear and I never had issues bottoming out with it on my last bike, but it seems to be hitting the last 20-30% travel range more frequently than I have before and I'm finding it a bit harsher, so I may go to another Mezzer or air fork up front, even though I don't really want to move from coil.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

phazedalx said:


> didnt realize the contra was up for pre order
> 
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.pinkbike.com/news/field-test-contra-mc-the-steel-steamroller.html 

They reviewed in the field test already.


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## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

Adodero said:


> Mine came in last week and I got it built up, I've got 4 rides on it so far. I ordered it with the DBCoil IL, as well.
> 
> I love it so far. I haven't ridden the latest batch of trailbikes (Spur, etc), but compared to my SBG Smuggler Carbon, this bike is far faster and the suspension performance is much better. Despite running a coil on my Smuggler, it would still have this tendency to hang up on square edges or get bogged down, to the point I felt an air shock was more appropriate on that bike to help it kindof skip over those types of things rather than try to absorb it. The SST just seems to float and glide over that stuff, continuing to accelerate, I've yet to feel where it gets bogged down. You definitely feel it more than you would on a much bigger enduro bike, but it lets you engage with the trail a lot more. When you first sit on the bike, it doesn't feel super squishy, which is a weird feeling for me coming from bigger bikes. When I first sat on it, I actually thought the rear wasn't compressing at all until I checked the bottom out bumper. It's a weird sensation but doesn't really translate to harshness on the trail IMO. I've also sent it off a few decent size drops, nothing massive, and despite bottoming out the fork the rear of the bike still stayed composed and didn't feel like I hit bottom. So it lets you engage with the trail, but it doesn't bog down or bottom out harshly from what I can tell.
> 
> ...



Cool build! Any pics?! 

Having little to no coil experience I stuck with air, which I also think matches my intended use and riding best.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

badsneakers said:


> Cool build! Any pics?!
> 
> Having little to no coil experience I stuck with air, which I also think matches my intended use and riding best.


I may get an air shock at some point to try. I put some photos below, I've since changed the wheels back to my 315c carbons off my hardtail and swapped bars around a bit, I'm gonna try some Titanium bars soon to see how they feel.


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## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

Adodero said:


> I may get an air shock at some point to try. I put some photos below, I've since changed the wheels back to my 315c carbons off my hardtail and swapped bars around a bit, I'm gonna try some Titanium bars soon to see how they feel.
> 
> View attachment 1999812
> 
> View attachment 1999811


Looks so nice! I've been ti bar curious for awhile now. Might be the bike to try it out on! 

Also there is a thread dedicated to the Reeb SST over here- 









Reeb SST


Thank you. IMHO, the routing is sensible and to my liking. It is all external except for the dropper in the seat tube. The rest of the bits run down the top of the down tube held in place by braze on guides (screw in bottle mounts). Under the swing-arm has typical cable-ty mounts. The only...




www.mtbr.com


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## Telebikes (Nov 3, 2014)

Adodero said:


> I may get an air shock at some point to try. I put some photos below, I've since changed the wheels back to my 315c carbons off my hardtail and swapped bars around a bit, I'm gonna try some Titanium bars soon to see how they feel.
> 
> View attachment 1999812
> 
> View attachment 1999811


Have you ridden it on any flatter trails? Wondering if the slack head angle would be too slack for the Midwest. Our trails here are punchy up and down, but can get technical. I am currently on a 67 degree head angle Intense Spider, but I am dreaming of owning this bike. Yours looks so good!


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Telebikes said:


> Have you ridden it on any flatter trails? Wondering if the slack head angle would be too slack for the Midwest. Our trails here are punchy up and down, but can get technical. I am currently on a 67 degree head angle Intense Spider, but I am dreaming of owning this bike. Yours looks so good!


I live in the mountains, so we don't have a ton of flat trails around here. We do have flat sections of trail that can be somewhat technical (ledges, roots, etc), I can tell you it pedals really well and there is little to no discernible pedal bob even out of the saddle and I have the compression on my shock fairly open. It's stable, responsive, and composed, I feel like it responds well to pedal inputs when you are trying to climb ledges or over roots. 

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on headtube angle alone, there are a lot of other variables (wheelbase, kinematics, reach, top tube, etc) that determine how a bike is going to ride. The geo on the SST is fairly typical of most trailbikes coming out now and I don't think it feels too extreme, but most of my other bikes have been more aggressive. 

If I were living somewhere flatter, I'd probably keep it and put a lightweight air inline shock on it, a Pike at 140, "trail" wheels, and a less aggressive tire on the front. You'd lose a few pounds of weight (probably dropping below 30) and it would help speed things up a bit on flat ground by reducing rolling weight and resistance. The frame itself though, I'd have no hesitation about riding it in flatter areas. That said, it's not a true XC bike, so if that's what you are after then you'll lose some efficiency over a lighter/less aggressive bike, but it is one of the more efficient trailbikes I've ridden.


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## snow snakes (Sep 13, 2021)

Telebikes said:


> Have you ridden it on any flatter trails? Wondering if the slack head angle would be too slack for the Midwest. Our trails here are punchy up and down, but can get technical. I am currently on a 67 degree head angle Intense Spider, but I am dreaming of owning this bike. Yours looks so good!


Coming off the Spider, I bet you’d be a happy camper with the a 130mm fork on this guy, which would put it at 66 degrees HTA. You’d get used to it quickly!


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## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

Telebikes said:


> Have you ridden it on any flatter trails? Wondering if the slack head angle would be too slack for the Midwest. Our trails here are punchy up and down, but can get technical. I am currently on a 67 degree head angle Intense Spider, but I am dreaming of owning this bike. Yours looks so good!


I'm in the greater Boston area and often head to the northern mountains but my day to day trail riding is flatter. Tight, twisty, lots of rock and roots with punchy techy climbs. My SST is eating it all up. I'm finding it to be perfect for me. I'm running a 140 fork and personally wouldn't bother with 130.


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## Telebikes (Nov 3, 2014)

Thank you all for the responses! I think I am gonna order one soon.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Here's a thread I've been following closely personally. Really interesting who's getting involved in the conversation. 









Reeb SST


Thanks a ton for the reassurance on sizing! I’m a big fan of coil shocks on short travel bikes. It just fits my style. Will most likely be going the CC in-line route. @Prosauce how does the fox float x pair with the SST as an air can option? In the land of REEB, I dont think anybody here has...




www.mtbr.com


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## scurry4 (Nov 28, 2009)

Has anyone ridden a Cotic Jeht? Very curios, but slightly worried about my 6'4" 215lb, agressive riding style flexing the frame all over the place.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

I got to go to the Philly Bike Expo last weekend for one day and saw some amazing stuff including a few steel full sus bikes and getting to meet the guys and gals who made them. I got to talk to Kristofer Henry (44 bikes), Zach from Acoustic Cycles, and there was a Reeb SST at the Ignite booth. Super nice people that were happy and excited to talk to anyone who was checking out their work. Great atmosphere. (I also got to meet Paul himself and talk bike parts! )

44 bikes fun facts. Steel frame, MUSA Vari Wall tubing, with 3D printed Stainless steel parts like the yoke. Good looking bike. Super nice guy.



















Acoustic fun facts. 150mm rear. The rocker was design by Adam Prosise from Reeb Cycles. The headbadge was made by his wife. Super nice guy. Great lookin bike. 



















Last is the Reeb SST. This one was in front of the Ignite booth. (notice their cranks on the Acoustic too) Oddity handlebar. CNC'd aluminum saddle which was pretty wild.



















Fun to see them in person and get to talk to the builders. Check them out.



https://www.44bikes.com







Custom Bicycles | Acoustic Cycles | Pine | Mountain Bikes


Here at Acoustic Cycles, we design, build and handcraft custom bicycles in Pine, CO.




www.acousticcycles.com












REEB Cycles


REEB Cycles is 100% American Made, hand welded one at a time in Lyons, Co.




reebcycles.com













2022 Philly Bike Expo: The Show and Custom Bikes Part 01 – 44 Bikes, Bishop, Breadwinner, Coast, Hot Salad, Junkyard Cats, Maiorossé, Royal H, and WZRD – john watson


When I lived in New York City, we rode our bikes to Philadelphia every year for the Philly Bike Expo. At the time, the event was hosted inside an old armory in the city, and featured a handful of framebuilders, makers, and companies with roots mostly in commuter cycling. Back then, the Philly...




theradavist.com






https://theradavist.com/2022-philly-bike-expo-gallery-02/


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## badsneakers (Dec 12, 2015)

*OneSpeed* said:


> I got to go to the Philly Bike Expo last weekend for one day and saw some amazing stuff including a few steel full sus bikes and getting to meet the guys and gals who made them. I got to talk to Kristofer Henry (44 bikes), Zach from Acoustic Cycles, and there was a Reeb SST at the Ignite booth. Super nice people that were happy and excited to talk to anyone who was checking out their work. Great atmosphere. (I also got to meet Paul himself and talk bike parts! )
> 
> 44 bikes fun facts. Steel frame, MUSA Vari Wall tubing, with 3D printed Stainless steel parts like the yoke. Good looking bike. Super nice guy.
> 
> ...



I'm picking up a hardtail this coming week from 44 I believe. Hopefully I can check out that full suspension while I'm there. 

I want those oddity bars for my reeb 🤤


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## j-t-g (Aug 15, 2013)

What in the sweet love of Cthulhu is that headbadge on the Acoustic???


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

j-t-g said:


> What in the sweet love of Cthulhu is that headbadge on the Acoustic???


Definitely some wendigo vibes there, but still less monstrous than putting a brown saddle on a yellow and purple bike.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

Stolen from Vital, which were stolen from Pinkbike…

Chromag finally publicly revealing their steel and Ti Darco and the Lowdown FS on Tuesday.


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## misterha (Apr 15, 2011)

Chromag has a write up on their bikes now 









Our Full Suspension Story


A big thank you to Ollie Jones, Hailey Elise and Kaz Yamamura who did a fantastic job capturing the spirit of Chromag in the video. Chromag Bikes and ‘full suspension’ almost seems like a bit of a contradiction. As a brand who built our reputation on producing only hardtail bikes for the last 19...




chromagbikes.com


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## snow snakes (Sep 13, 2021)

And here is the NSMB first impressions article. It kind of makes sense, given it's lineage from a hardtail brand, but it very much seems that the Darco is essentially a softtail. My initial instinct is to compare to it to the REEB SST (steel, boutique, 120mm rear with quite a bit more up front), but they seem very disparate machines (which is good).


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

shapethings said:


> Stolen from Vital, which were stolen from Pinkbike…
> 
> Chromag finally publicly revealing their steel and Ti Darco and the Lowdown FS on Tuesday.
> View attachment 2013410
> ...


So is the rear end steel or aluminum? It definitely looks like aluminum on the Lowdown, so only "half-steel" bike...are the others only half-steel too?


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## snow snakes (Sep 13, 2021)

Jayem said:


> So is the rear end steel or aluminum? It definitely looks like aluminum on the Lowdown, so only "half-steel" bike...are the others only half-steel too?


Alloy rear triangles, yeah.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

snow snakes said:


> And here is the NSMB first impressions article. It kind of makes sense, given it's lineage from a hardtail brand, but it very much seems that the Darco is essentially a softtail. My initial instinct is to compare to it to the REEB SST (steel, boutique, 120mm rear with quite a bit more up front), but they seem very disparate machines (which is good).


That review makes me think it would be right up my alley except for the super steep seat tube angle. The reach is super long though.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Jayem said:


> So is the rear end steel or aluminum? It definitely looks like aluminum on the Lowdown, so only "half-steel" bike...are the others only half-steel too?


I think just the chainstays are aluminum, the seatstays are steel. (bolted together at the pivot)

Edit: yeah here it is.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

gregnash said:


> There was an article (will have to do some searching to see if I can find it) that much of what is needed out of steel to attain the same rigidity and strength of current "burly" aluminum bikes is quite a bit less thick tubes and large tubes. Much can be attained from the new 4130 Chromoly, Reynolds, or other alloys out there to attain similar results, still have that "warm" feeling that steel has but be close to the same weight (if not the same weight) as many of the aluminum bikes.
> 
> I think the generalization of heavy, flexy, rusty, etc. was all true 10yrs ago but today the processes to be able to "mold" steel tubes and the advances in geometric understanding, kinesthetics, leverage ratios and all the stuff to be able to "build" those awesome bikes we have now transfers over to steel. This is why we are starting to see a resurgence of steel bikes popping up. If this weren't the case we would not see as many people starting companies with steel bikes. They are no longer just the ss or city commuter type bikes they used to be.


Keep in mind every steel alloy, old or new, has the same stiffness. The only thing you can to change stiffness is to change the shape and thickness. Chemistry and heat treatment have no effect on stiffness whatsoever. They can increase yield, tensile, and fatigue strength, but bike frames aren’t made from especially high strength steel. There’s been no new technology for many decades in terms of alloying or heat treat for welded steel tubing, just marketing spin. 

Big bike makers use complex forming processes to tweak aluminum shapes to moderate its stiffness. Carbon layups allow great variations in different direction and sections. However, anyone working with cylindrical steel tubes is limited to changing tube diameter, wall thickness, and overall geometry. Maybe there are some bigger builders tweaking sections/shapes with hydro forming, but that’s unlikely for smaller frame builders.


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## shapethings (Feb 17, 2014)

Edit: answered


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

*OneSpeed* said:


> I think just the chainstays are aluminum, the seatstays are steel. (bolted together at the pivot)
> 
> Edit: yeah here it is.
> 
> View attachment 2013601


Lowdown has aluminum seatstays as well as chainstays.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

looks easy from here said:


> Lowdown has aluminum seatstays as well as chainstays.


Not a steel bike then


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Jayem said:


> Not a steel bike then


Maybe we can co-opt the term "alloy" to describe mixed metal bikes, instead of strictly aluminum ones.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

looks easy from here said:


> Maybe we can co-opt the term "alloy" to describe mixed metal bikes, instead of strictly aluminum ones.


Well every metal bike is alloy…


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Jayem said:


> Well every metal bike is alloy…


I know. Which is why it drives me a little more bonkers everytime I see a post referring to "steel vs alloy" frames, when they mean "steel vs aluminum". But Chromag (and another steelish brand, Cotic, maybe? I can't recall right now) is using a mix of steel and aluminum in their frames, and a word for a mix of metals is...


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## Karluz (Jan 1, 2020)

N-K said:


> I just built up a bike with one of those Madnes Atlas frames.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m quite interested on a Madnes Stellar myself.
Any feedback regarding the suspension bushings used in place of bearings? How do they hold up?
I saw a video of a Madnes frame being assembled when the linkage was moving there seemed to be quite a bit of stiction in those bushings. Can anyone give any insight if that’s the case in real world use?

thanks


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## N-K (Feb 13, 2016)

Karluz said:


> I’m quite interested on a Madnes Stellar myself.
> Any feedback regarding the suspension bushings used in place of bearings? How do they hold up?
> I saw a video of a Madnes frame being assembled when the linkage was moving there seemed to be quite a bit of stiction in those bushings. Can anyone give any insight if that’s the case in real world use?
> 
> thanks


The bushigs seem to work just fine and the rear end is incredibly stiff sideways. No play at all.
The frame comes in parts and when I initially assembled it I might have overtightened the linkage bolts a bit too much (there is no guide to the required torqe to my knowledge) and that pretty much made the rear end just bounce on everything and not absorb the terrain. Later, I realized my mistake and loosened some of the bolts and it got a lot better.
It's still not quite as plush as my previous Radon Slide Trail, but the shocks are different as well.
The difference might also be just about this being VPP and the Radon was Horst link. Atlas simply climbs so well it's hard to believe.
I haven't checked the bushings in a while. Haven't noticed any grittyness or anything yet.

I'm happy with this bike. It's just perfect for jumping and extremely technical climbs.

I also used to have a Cotic Rocket (V2?) and compared to that, it's a completely different type of bike. 
The Cotic was super supple, but not fun to ride. The geo wasn't good for me either and I didn't get along with it.


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## r-mm (Jul 6, 2019)

Happy to find this thread as I’m looking for a new full suspension XC/downcountry rig to replace my trusty, beautiful US-made Ellsworth Truth. Wonder what you all think its spiritual successor would be in a modern geo 29er? 

Forgive me if this is a threadjack but if folks are making alum FS bikes today I’d be interested in tips.


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## misterha (Apr 15, 2011)

r-mm said:


> Happy to find this thread as I’m looking for a new full suspension XC/downcountry rig to replace my trusty, beautiful US-made Ellsworth Truth. Wonder what you all think its spiritual successor would be in a modern geo 29er?
> 
> Forgive me if this is a threadjack but if folks are making alum FS bikes today I’d be interested in tips.


Two big players would be Banshee and Reeb. Banshee Phantom is a 115r/130f. Reeb sqweeb starts at 135mm rear however so not so much downcountry.


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## xjbaylor (Sep 22, 2006)

r-mm said:


> There are plenty of great aluminum FS bikes out there (Ripley AF, Bird Aether 9, Stumpjumper, Top Fuel) - for a steel bike I would take a hard look at the Reeb SST.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

r-mm said:


> Happy to find this thread as I’m looking for a new full suspension XC/downcountry rig to replace my trusty, beautiful US-made Ellsworth Truth. Wonder what you all think its spiritual successor would be in a modern geo 29er?
> 
> *Forgive me if this is a threadjack but *if folks are making alum FS bikes today I’d be interested in tips.


If you are specifically asking about steel full suspension bikes than this is a fine place to ask. You could also post your own thread here. What bike to buy?

As far as thread jacking don't preemptively apologize, just don't do it.


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