# Manitou Mara Pro



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Edit: yes, the Mara Pro does exist









Since it was first spied at Sea Otter, the Mara Pro has been slow to come to market, even the Manitou website hasn't linked in a set up "schedule"; come on already!

I'd been riding a DPX2 and a tuned Bomber CR Coil on a 140mm travel GG Shred Dog. The Bomber felt dead no matter how it was tuned. I preferred the DPX2 for overall ride quality, but it tended to bottom out easily when run soft enough for small hits.

When I upgraded to a GG Megatrail, I needed a new shock, and since I had just ordered a Mezzer, it was only natural to get a Mara Pro 

I have a few rides now on the Mara Pro 230 x 65. Set up was easy, though I had to peruse Pinkbike and various other sites to get a sense for what some folks had run; hey Manitou, where's the set up guide?! I was able to quickly settle on a pressure that felt good on small hits, but didn't lead to excessive bottom out.

I'm 190# plus kit, aggressive "older" rider
Guerrilla Gravity Megatrail 155mm in Trail Mode, suspension design is reportedly "digressive".
125psi (Lezyne Shock Drive)
HSC 1
LSC 14
R 6
Party mode all the days 

Work Mode: Not just another lock out.
So the work mode doesn't actually lock the shock out, but instead seems to provide a second damper setting, which is pretty cool if it works out that way. What I'm working on now is trying to sync the "work mode" on the Mara Pro to an equivalent setting on the Mezzer, TBD.

Overall I find the Mara to be very supple, absorbs the small hits without being boggy, takes the big hits and g outs with bottoming out, pretty much set it and forget it. The Mara does have a big reservoir, so make sure you have room for it.

I got mine for $475 pus tax with a discount code.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Good to finally read some real world experience with the new shock. I'm currently riding and loving a McLeod, but am really interested in finding out whether and in which way the Mara is even better. Is it just extremely hard hits and sustained descents, or is it also noticeably better in other ways? If so, I might be interested.
Hopefully someone has upgraded and can chime in. Unfortunately, with the lack of reviews so far and the (fortunately) good experience people have with the McLeod, the chance of someone providing a real world comparison is very slim.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Mac1987 said:


> Good to finally read some real world experience with the new shock. I'm currently riding and loving a McLeod, but am really interested in finding out whether and in which way the Mara is even better. Is it just extremely hard hits and sustained descents, or is it also noticeably better in other ways? If so, I might be interested.
> Hopefully someone has upgraded and can chime in. Unfortunately, with the lack of reviews so far and the (fortunately) good experience people have with the McLeod, the chance of someone providing a real world comparison is very slim.


I think Dougal could give you a comparison, he has ridden the McCleod.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Mac1987 said:


> Good to finally read some real world experience with the new shock. I'm currently riding and loving a McLeod, but am really interested in finding out whether and in which way the Mara is even better. Is it just extremely hard hits and sustained descents, or is it also noticeably better in other ways? If so, I might be interested.
> Hopefully someone has upgraded and can chime in. Unfortunately, with the lack of reviews so far and the (fortunately) good experience people have with the McLeod, the chance of someone providing a real world comparison is very slim.


Dougal and both have a good amount on both shocks.

The biggest benefits of the Mara over the Mcleod is how tuneable it is. The Mcleod is a excellent shock, but it only has 4 compression settings and one of them is a lock out. With 23 clicks of LSC (there are actually 30+, but when you get past 23 out from full closed the there is no meaningful change in damping) and 6 clicks of HSC, you can fine tune the feel to a level that is just not possible on the Mcleod.

In the real world, that translates to better small bump performance while remaining more supportive, without feeling harsh on larger square edge bumps. You can get a Mcleod to feel close to as good as a Mara with a bunch a time working on a custom tune. On a mara, you just mess with the clickers to get the same result.

The other key point is that it uses a similar idea to what push's 11/6 uses, where the climb (work) mode is a completely separate valve than the main base valve. That means you don't have to compromise the base valve tune to allow for a meaningful climb mode. (You can adjust the tune on a McLeod to have 4 very usable compression settings, but you lose the lock out)

Last major benefit of the Mara over the Mcleod is oil volume. If you live in a place with extended downhills, the Mara will stay cooler and more consistent feeling than a Mcleod.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mac1987 said:


> Good to finally read some real world experience with the new shock. I'm currently riding and loving a McLeod, but am really interested in finding out whether and in which way the Mara is even better. Is it just extremely hard hits and sustained descents, or is it also noticeably better in other ways? If so, I might be interested.
> Hopefully someone has upgraded and can chime in. Unfortunately, with the lack of reviews so far and the (fortunately) good experience people have with the McLeod, the chance of someone providing a real world comparison is very slim.


I have had lots of riding on both. Not yet on the same bike due to different shock sizes. But plenty on the same trails.

The McLeod only contains ~25cc of oil and riding like downhill jump tracks could cause it to rapidly heat and cool. Giving a noticable change to the rebound speed (faster when hotter). I was able to keep that under control with a better oil spec. That's just the reality of a small and light shock.

I am a set and forget type of rider rather than a constant knob and lockout fiddler. So I like a shock that has fine adjusters also. I am still fine-tuning the Mara. Last week I had the first chairlift riding and there are more trails I want to run it down to see how my current setups will hold up.

The Mara is exactly what I need and want in an air shock. It's smooth, supple and all the adjusters do exactly what they should. Reliability has been perfect.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

A couple things worth noting in general in case this becomes the "official" Mara thread.

Lsc and rebound clicks should be counted from full closed when comparing set ups. This is because the consistent setting with the valves are closed.

The HSC is the opposite, with the consistent setting being full open. So count from full open.

My base settings:
216x63 on a Pivot Mach 6
160lbs 
King can in middle setting with 5cc extra reduction
123psi
Rebound -9 clicks from closed
Lsc -18 clicks from closed
HSC +2 clicks from open

I'm running a slightly stiffer rebound shim stack than stock. With the stock shim stack, I was around 8.5 clicks out from closed.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks Mullen and Dougal for your great answers. The McLeod doesn't overheat during my daily riding and I didn't notice severe overheating issues like with my X-Fusion O2 PVA or Fox DPS when visiting bike parks. Still, the tunability and separate valve for climbing sound interesting. 
When the Mara becomes available in the Netherlands I might give it a try, even though the McLeod performs pretty great so far.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Does it exist? Really? Not in europe unfortunately.

I'm very disappointed

I'm about done waiting for it, i will need a shock in the next month i will need to get something else


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

Bike-discount.de lists 200x56 as in stock, and the rest are available in 7-9 days.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

otsdr said:


> Bike-discount.de lists 200x56 as in stock, and the rest are available in 7-9 days.


I would take that 7-9 days very loosely. My Mezzer took 2 weeks to be told it would be another two weeks, and then it shipped a couple of days later. All in, it took a full month from order to my door. But the price was great, they were the only place that would take the order at the time, and I wasn't in a particular hurry.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

otsdr said:


> Bike-discount.de lists 200x56 as in stock, and the rest are available in 7-9 days.


Wrong, of course i've seen bike discount. A friend of mine ordered it 20 days ago and it was available, they delayed the delivery to late february, they don't have it.
He deleted the order


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mac1987 said:


> Thanks Mullen and Dougal for your great answers. The McLeod doesn't overheat during my daily riding and I didn't notice severe overheating issues like with my X-Fusion O2 PVA or Fox DPS when visiting bike parks. Still, the tunability and separate valve for climbing sound interesting.
> When the Mara becomes available in the Netherlands I might give it a try, even though the McLeod performs pretty great so far.





davideb87 said:


> Does it exist? Really? Not in europe unfortunately.
> 
> I'm very disappointed
> 
> I'm about done waiting for it, i will need a shock in the next month i will need to get something else


What sizes are you guys looking for?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

My bike would take a 200x56. Unfortunately, we had some problems with the bathroom taking a lot of spending to fix. By the time the Mara becomes available, I might be able to justify the expense again. But because of the better than expected performance of the McLeod, I'll probably need some convincing of the benefits. It's not a 'need' but more of a 'can it get even better'. The separate valve for climbing does sound great for trips to the Alps though...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mac1987 said:


> My bike would take a 200x56. Unfortunately, we had some problems with the bathroom taking a lot of spending to fix. By the time the Mara becomes available, I might be able to justify the expense again. But because of the better than expected performance of the McLeod, I'll probably need some convincing of the benefits. It's not a 'need' but more of a 'can it get even better'. The separate valve for climbing does sound great for trips to the Alps though...


Mara is available right now in 200x56mm.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Good to know. Thanks!


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm kinda curious about that flexible piston in the Mara.

When is that trickling down to the McLeod?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

PHeller said:


> I'm kinda curious about that flexible piston in the Mara.
> 
> When is that trickling down to the McLeod?


You will know when it does. Should be somewhat soon


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So I continue to be amazed by this shock. By my nature I’m a tinkerer, so I’m always playing with pressures and settings, but a few weeks after installing the Mara I haven’t touched it other than flipping it into work mode.

The Mara has transformed my bike, plush as your grandmas couch, supportive without being overly firm, and no issues with bottom out. No compromises, this shock is superb.


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## stonant (Mar 11, 2016)

Anyone have any experience on the mara pro and a DVO Topaz? I have a Topaz that needs a full-rebuild. Debating purchasing the mara pro because of its ability to be re-built easily at home.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

stonant said:


> Anyone have any experience on the mara pro and a DVO Topaz? I have a Topaz that needs a full-rebuild. Debating purchasing the mara pro because of its ability to be re-built easily at home.


What do you need to know? The topaz is a close cousin to the RS Monarch.


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## stonant (Mar 11, 2016)

Just wondering how the comparison is, and whether it would be worth the ~$300 upgrade. I think the change to the mara pro would pay for itself in the long run b/c of serviceability, but wondering if people felt there was a substantial performance increase as well.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Are there drawings anywhere of the dimensions of the Mara? 

Curious about the length of the 210x55's reservoir.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

If it's like Dougal says, the Topaz being similar to the Monarch, I'd say there is no comparison.

But if you like the Topaz then a rebuild with a little tuning could be worthwhile.



stonant said:


> Just wondering how the comparison is, and whether it would be worth the ~$300 upgrade. I think the change to the mara pro would pay for itself in the long run b/c of serviceability, but wondering if people felt there was a substantial performance increase as well.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Are there king cans available for the Mara Pro for more progressive linkages? I've been astounded at how good the McLeod has been so my interest has gone up with the Mara.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

robmac48 said:


> Are there king cans available for the Mara Pro for more progressive linkages? I've been astounded at how good the McLeod has been so my interest has gone up with the Mara.


Mara Pro has the king-can stock. They are configured for mid-volume and easily changed to full volume.
I'm running mine on full volume, works great and my bike linkage has about 17% progression.


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## greenblur (May 7, 2011)

What is involved to switch it to full volume? My frame is also 17% progressivity with a pretty low ending ratio around 2.3.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

greenblur said:


> What is involved to switch it to full volume? My frame is also 17% progressivity with a pretty low ending ratio around 2.3.


You move an O-ring that splits the outer chamber in half


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

mullen119 said:


> You move an O-ring that splits the outer chamber in half


How does that change the ride?


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## greenblur (May 7, 2011)

For just about all air shocks:

Larger air volume = easier to bottom out. 

Smaller air volume = harder to bottom out.


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## Kamao (Mar 31, 2013)

Is this shock available in 200x51?


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Kamao said:


> Is this shock available in 200x51?


https://shop.hayesperformance.com/collections/manitou/products/mara-pro


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> How does that change the ride?


Bigger volume makes the air spring more linear. Gives you a deeper mid-stroke and then relies more on compression damping and a more progressive linkage to hold up the end of the stroke.



Kamao said:


> Is this shock available in 200x51?


No. But it is in 200x57mm. You can get a spacer installed to limit travel to 200x51mm if your bike can't use the full 57mm stroke without something hitting.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Look what I found

https://singletrackworld.com/2020/02/review-manitou-mara-pro-do-you-like-to-party/

The reviewer mistakenly called the IFP chamber the negative spring (and his ifp pressure is not 150psi, it's 300psi), but other than that, his feelings seem to be very similar to what everyone else who has ridden one ends up saying.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So how would a lower pressure (150psi) in the reservoir affect ride? Less mid stroke support?

Singletrack did a fairly good review, mistakes appear to have been corrected though still reporting 150psi in the reservoir.

Agreed on the not poppy, but I suspect I could make mine poppy if I wanted it to ride that way.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

The shock could become poppy simply by stiffening up the air spring and opening up the rebound circuit. But a "poppy" shock will suffer in small bump compliance. 

IF you get the pressure too low in the IFP, there is chance for cavitation. The IFP is present to stabilize the oil as it goes through the circuit. Too little pressure and the oil can cavitate.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Any other comments on the shock not being poppy? Looking at one for my Evil Offering and really don't want to lose any pop.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bdundee said:


> Any other comments on the shock not being poppy? Looking at one for my Evil Offering and really don't want to lose any pop.


You can make it as poppy as you want. I like my suspension to be fast and active. The Mara does that nicely and can still be adjusted faster.

If you were to compare it to a RS Super Deluxe, the Mara can be set from far more playful and poppy down to the same dead blow hammer feel. But the friction in the Mara is about half of the Deluxe family. Having them both on the bench the difference is amazing.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Dougal said:


> You can make it as poppy as you want. I like my suspension to be fast and active. The Mara does that nicely and can still be adjusted faster.
> 
> If you were to compare it to a RS Super Deluxe, the Mara can be set from far more playful and poppy down to the same dead blow hammer feel. But the friction in the Mara is about half of the Deluxe family. Having them both on the bench the difference is amazing.


Thanks Dougal, kind of figured that but when I heard it a few time it had me wondering. I'm running a dpx2 but I'm guessing the same goes for that?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bdundee said:


> Thanks Dougal, kind of figured that but when I heard it a few time it had me wondering. I'm running a dpx2 but I'm guessing the same goes for that?


I do not like the DPX2 damping at all.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Has anyone fitted a Mara to an Evil Offering yet. Looks like it might be a little tight at full compression?


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

Well I'm ordering the Mara pro to go with the Mezzer "bike discount" showed them available, but then I found this thread about them. Now I'm second guessing trying to get it from them. 

@Dougal how much do you have them for and in stock? 230x65 eyelet 

How much of a pain is it to reduce these to a 60mm travel? Like for me using the same shock on megatrail and smash


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jakerfreese said:


> Well I'm ordering the Mara pro to go with the Mezzer "bike discount" showed them available, but then I found this thread about them. Now I'm second guessing trying to get it from them.
> 
> @Dougal how much do you have them for and in stock? 230x65 eyelet
> 
> How much of a pain is it to reduce these to a 60mm travel? Like for me using the same shock on megatrail and smash


I have one 230x60/65 eyelet shock and it was intended to be a demo unit. To add travel reduction spacers is a partial strip down and re-bleed.

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manito...sc_retail_international&___from_store=default


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## lachman (Jan 29, 2019)

I see they are being made in big DH sizes, any reports on using a Mara on a DH bike?


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

lachman said:


> I see they are being made in big DH sizes, any reports on using a Mara on a DH bike?


Best air shock i have had in my Enduro bikes. If people use super deluxe shocks in DH you can absokuteky not go wrobg with the Mara. Esoecciaky as you can custom shim the compression unit so easily


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

I'm buying mine for an Enduro and park bike.


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## jcmonty (Apr 11, 2015)

Can anyone point me to a drawing or dimensions for the Mara Pro? I am particularly trying to determine if I will get interference from the longer-than-typical reservoir on my bike with the water bottle mount. The size I would be looking for is 210x55mm

Thanks for the help!


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## ChocolateThunder (Jul 23, 2006)

jcmonty said:


> Can anyone point me to a drawing or dimensions for the Mara Pro? I am particularly trying to determine if I will get interference from the longer-than-typical reservoir on my bike with the water bottle mount. The size I would be looking for is 210x55mm
> 
> Thanks for the help!


I contacted Manitou directly to get this information. They did not share it with me - they shared it with the frame manufacturer (Nicolai) who then said "yes, it'll fit on your bike, with 3-4 mm to spare."


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Is the platform lever work mode compression circuit adjustable externally?


Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## ChocolateThunder (Jul 23, 2006)

So I have mine on a bike with a linear leverage ratio curve (so not a curve, actually), starts at 2.8, 19% regressive, ending at ~2.27. The shock on the bike is supple as they come, to the point that despite 30% sag, it bobs like a madman, even with LSC all the way in, HSC 3 clicks out from all-in. LSR all the way in.
I'm thinking that I need a stiffer LSC tune (if that's possible?) and a a stiffer LSR tune as well (again, possible?).

Also, when the shock is compressed a tiny bit, it rebounds VERY rapidly and essentially tops out. When I squish it a little deeper into the travel, it rebounds more slowly, and does not have such a rapid topout situation. Almost makes me think it's short on damping oil, which is only flowing through the circuit when I really cycle it. Seems odd.

So Dougal, Mullen... what are next steps? It's on a trail bike (with 130 mm travel, 210x50), and I would like it to be a little more responsive.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ChocolateThunder said:


> So I have mine on a bike with a linear leverage ratio curve (so not a curve, actually), starts at 2.8, 19% regressive, ending at ~2.27. The shock on the bike is supple as they come, to the point that despite 30% sag, it bobs like a madman, even with LSC all the way in, HSC 3 clicks out from all-in. LSR all the way in.
> I'm thinking that I need a stiffer LSC tune (if that's possible?) and a a stiffer LSR tune as well (again, possible?).
> 
> Also, when the shock is compressed a tiny bit, it rebounds VERY rapidly and essentially tops out. When I squish it a little deeper into the travel, it rebounds more slowly, and does not have such a rapid topout situation. Almost makes me think it's short on damping oil, which is only flowing through the circuit when I really cycle it. Seems odd.
> ...


Step 1. reset negative air. Take the air-can off, clean, relube and reassemble. If you have top-out it's a sign that negative air is off.

Step 2. How slurpy is the damper? Bleeding them is pretty easy, syringe half full of oil with the same M5 bleed fittings as a reverb post, shimano brake or Hayes Radar brake (do not mix in tools you use with DOT brakes).
Bleed port is on the bottom of the damper body by the eyelet. Suck and blow with the syringe at the high point to suck out air and push in oil.


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## ChocolateThunder (Jul 23, 2006)

1. Will do.
2. It does make more noise than my Storia, but they're different shocks, so I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison. Remind me, which fluid? I did get a bottle of that Motorex Power Synt 4T 5W40.


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## ChocolateThunder (Jul 23, 2006)

Dougal said:


> Step 1. reset negative air. Take the air-can off, clean, relube and reassemble. If you have top-out it's a sign that negative air is off.


I took the air can exterior off. I then unscrewed the can. I removed all O-rings, coated everything in a light coating of Slickoleum, and reassembled.



Dougal said:


> Step 2. How slurpy is the damper? Bleeding them is pretty easy, syringe half full of oil with the same M5 bleed fittings as a reverb post, shimano brake or Hayes Radar brake (do not mix in tools you use with DOT brakes).
> Bleed port is on the bottom of the damper body by the eyelet. Suck and blow with the syringe at the high point to suck out air and push in oil.


After above, I put the shock in a vise and unscrewed the bleed screw with it elevated. Fluid slowly leaked out with bubbles, maybe a few mL in total. Whatever fluid is in there is different in color (it's blue!) than the Motorex Power Synt 4T 5W40 that I used (not knowing what else to use). I was able to eek out quite a few bubbles with the suck-push method. I reassembled without any issue.

Now, jumping back on the bike, getting it to sag 30%, the shock now feels like it has a slight hesitancy each time the shock changes direction. This happens anywhere in the travel, but is worse the deeper in travel I go.
Also, this didn't fix the issue that the rebound damping is still too light, though when re-dialing in sag, I noticed that at lower pressure, the LSR, when fully closed, is quite slow, so it's not as if it's not working. It's just not slow enough.
Starting to wonder if I should replace all the damping fluid with something more viscous as that would stiffen up everything. To be fair, the shock only got a couple mL of 4T anyway, so I imagine that whatever was in there is still the predominant damping fluid.
I'm starting to wonder if this thing needs to go back to Manitou. I have no issue working on stuff, so if I can do it, I will. I just want it right. I certainly don't like that after I worked on it, there's a stiction when the stroke changes direction of travel.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ChocolateThunder said:


> After above, I put the shock in a vise and unscrewed the bleed screw with it elevated. Fluid slowly leaked out with bubbles, maybe a few mL in total. Whatever fluid is in there is different in color (it's blue!) than the Motorex Power Synt 4T 5W40


Um, crap. The 5W40 is a thick lower leg bath oil. The factory oil is Maxima 85-150 which is a blue 5wt.
The 5W40 is about 6x thicker than the 5wt.

I'd do an oil change to something better when you can. I use Motorex 2.5wt which is the same viscosity as the Maxima 5wt.


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## ChocolateThunder (Jul 23, 2006)

I have the following fork fluids to choose from:
Golden Spectro Fork Fluid 85-150 (5wt) [email protected] 14 (semi-synthetic)
Maxima Racing Fork Fluid 85-150 (5wt) [email protected] 15.9 (petroleum)
Bel-Ray High Performance Fork Oil 5wt [email protected] 17.1 (mineral)
Bel-Ray High Performance Fork Oil 7wt [email protected] 29 (mineral)
Silkolene Pro RSF 5wt [email protected] 26.7 (semi-synthetic)
This is what you recommend:

Motorex Racing Fork Oil 2.5w [email protected] 15.2 (mineral)
What do you think would be best, especially considering my issues with too fast of damping (LSR and LSC, maybe HSR and HSC too, but don't know about high-speed circuits yet)?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ChocolateThunder said:


> I have the following fork fluids to choose from:
> Golden Spectro Fork Fluid 85-150 (5wt) [email protected] 14 (semi-synthetic)
> [**]Maxima Racing Fork Fluid 85-150 (5wt) [email protected] 15.9 (petroleum)*
> Bel-Ray High Performance Fork Oil 5wt [email protected] 17.1 (mineral)
> ...


In bold above is pretty much the factory fill.

I'd hold off on changing fluids until you've got it known good and dialled in.


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## ChocolateThunder (Jul 23, 2006)

Dougal said:


> In bold above is pretty much the factory fill.
> 
> I'd hold off on changing fluids until you've got it known good and dialled in.


Any tips/guidance on the bleeding procedure? Still no documentation on Mara Pro service from Manitou.
Any input on why the funny stiction developed after the steps I took?
Any concerns about using a non-mineral based damping fluid? Like will that affect the seals (Bel-Ray is petroleum-based, stock Motorex is mineral-based).


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## ChocolateThunder (Jul 23, 2006)

ChocolateThunder said:


> Any tips/guidance on the bleeding procedure? Still no documentation on Mara Pro service from Manitou.
> Any input on why the funny stiction developed after the steps I took?
> Any concerns about using a non-mineral based damping fluid? Like will that affect the seals (Bel-Ray is petroleum-based, stock Motorex is mineral-based).


Well, I figure it out. Or at least I think I did. I figure someone will correct me eventually if I'm wrong, but here's how I did a full bleed.

Released pressure in main and reservoir
Took the air sleeve off
Unscrewed the air canister
Unscrewed the bleed screw at the end of the piston, draining what fluid I could, encouraged by cycling the piston
Unscrewed the reservoir, taking care to note the 2 little O-rings that seal the silver shim stack assembly to the rest of the shock
Drained the rest of the fluid that I could
Pushed the IFP to the end of the reservoir, with the schrader valve depressed as I pushed, until it bottomed out
Reassembled the reservoir assembly
Cycled the piston/damper numerous times, ultimately pulling it all the way out so as to maximize internal fluid volume space (not sure if that's actually necessary, but it seems to have worked)
Filled a syringe full with fluid, and pushed it all in
Filled syringe full again, and was able to inject half of it
Positioned the shock so that the bleed port is at the top (to encourage air to rise to it)
Pushed and pulled on the syringe, taking care to never push the syringe dry, nor to suck the plunger out of the barrel. This got rid of the air. I cycled numerous times until was sure that there was no air in the system.
Allowed the syringe to relax to it's natural position (not trying to shove extra fluid in).
With the bleed port set screw ready on a screwdriver, removed the bleed syringe assembly and quickly installed the screw (only a little fluid pushed out)
Reassembled the air canister
Reassembled the air sleeve
Put 150 PSI in the reservoir
Put 160 PSI in the main chamber
Installed Shock Wiz, only to find that indeed, 160 PSI leads to 30% sag
IT WORKED.
Rebound and compression now make a noticeable difference which is consistent regardless of shock position, and the slurpy/squish is gone. The shock still makes some noise, but not a concerning noise, and the LSR range goes from "too fast" to "too slow." No need to change the viscosity of the fluid. Will fiddle with LSC and HSC on the trail tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure what happened was that I received a shock that had air in the damper. Not an issue anymore. Funny stiction noted above is also gone.
Bummer that I received a shock like this, but stoked that I was able to fix it myself at home with normal tools (I like that I can actually work on suspension now, something that was not possible with other shocks.
90/55 in my 140mm Mezzer - can't wait to ride tomorrow!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

This is the bleed procedure, it assumes you already have the shock completely disassembled.

1. Install party valve, reservoir, and basevalve (with LSC needle installed and backed out 1 turn, hsc full open)

2. Fill shock body with oil, install main piston and seal head.

3. Flip shock over ( shock body pointed up, as is the reservoir). Completely compress the shock forcing oil up the center of the damper shaft.

4. Fill the reservoir with oil about 3/4 of the way, cycle shock slowly until no air bubbles come out of the oil in the reservoir. Flip between work and party mode to purge air from both flow paths

5. Fill reservoir to the top, grease IFP and install until first seal is past the threads for the end cap (this is messy)

6. Lay the shock on it's side, remove seal head bleed screw, and push the IFP to a depth of about 20mm, keeping an eye out for air bubbles coming out the bleed port (which should be pointed up). Re install bleed screw.

7. Shock back to reservoir and shock body pointed up, put a small amount of oil in a syringe and attach to shock body bleed port. Pull a vacuum with the syringe, removing any air that was trapped in the shock body. Continue to pull oil into the syringe to pull IFP down to proper depth. Depth varies between shocks, 40-44mm from memory. I will try to post the depths in the future. If you over shoot the depth, you can use the syringe to push the IFP back up.

8. Remove syringe and install bleed screw. Install reservoir end cap and charge to 300psi. Test bleed.

As of right now, all Mara's require 300psi IFP pressure. Do not go with 150psi, the shock will not perform as intended.

Stick with mineral oil based oils to avoid seal issues. I recommend Maxima RSF 3wt if you are rebuilding.


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## ChocolateThunder (Jul 23, 2006)

mullen119 said:


> This is the bleed procedure...


Thanks!
I got the 150 PSI from the Mara Pro intro video that Hayes posted where they talk about what makes it special, and he was excited to mention that the engineers worked hard to get it so that the end user can do everything at home, including pressurize the IFP chamber with a regular shock pump. He made it sound like 150 PSI was easy to achieve, but the 200-250 PSI that other shocks typically have in the reservoir was not so easy to achieve. I didn't really understand that though as most shock pumps go up to 300 PSI.
Anyway, I'm going to put 300 PSI in the reservoir, and test it out today. If I can't get it dialed, I will disassemble and reassemble following your recommendations. I'm pretty certain there's no air in my shock any longer (in the damping circuit), but there's a chance the IFP is not in the right position, which I get might affect mid- and end-stroke support.
Thx again!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ChocolateThunder said:


> Thanks!
> I got the 150 PSI from the Mara Pro intro video that Hayes posted where they talk about what makes it special, and he was excited to mention that the engineers worked hard to get it so that the end user can do everything at home, including pressurize the IFP chamber with a regular shock pump. He made it sound like 150 PSI was easy to achieve, but the 200-250 PSI that other shocks typically have in the reservoir was not so easy to achieve. I didn't really understand that though as most shock pumps go up to 300 PSI.
> Anyway, I'm going to put 300 PSI in the reservoir, and test it out today. If I can't get it dialed, I will disassemble and reassemble following your recommendations. I'm pretty certain there's no air in my shock any longer (in the damping circuit), but there's a chance the IFP is not in the right position, which I get might affect mid- and end-stroke support.
> Thx again!


I figured that was where you got it from. Unfortunately, that was marketing speaking instead of engineering.


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## ChocolateThunder (Jul 23, 2006)

So the rebound stopped working. Not sure why, but I now have a pogo stick. No evidence of oil leaking. Going to tear it apart fully and rebuild it based on your detailed instructions. If that doesn't work, it's going to Manitou.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ChocolateThunder said:


> So the rebound stopped working. Not sure why, but I now have a pogo stick. No evidence of oil leaking. Going to tear it apart fully and rebuild it based on your detailed instructions. If that doesn't work, it's going to Manitou.


I would send it in. I'm not sure what would cause that, but the engineers should take a look at it


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ChocolateThunder said:


> So the rebound stopped working. Not sure why, but I now have a pogo stick. No evidence of oil leaking. Going to tear it apart fully and rebuild it based on your detailed instructions. If that doesn't work, it's going to Manitou.


Send it in. Don't pull it apart yourself.


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

Hi all Manitou Gurus , I am thinking to switch to Mara from my DPX2 to pair with Mezzer (got rid off fox36 already) .On the other hand the dpx2 is factory tuned right for the frame and alchemy supension system , so I wonder if I ll be able to tune up Mara around that system myself to get better than factory dpx2. Could you share your inputs, I am trying to figure out myself but I am not that experienced yet to be confident. Here is link to give you basic idea of my suspension , the progression curve is there https://alchemybicycles.com/journal/sine-suspension-explained/ Thank you


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

torcha said:


> Hi all Manitou Gurus , I am thinking to switch to Mara from my DPX2 to pair with Mezzer (got rid off fox36 already) .On the other hand the dpx2 is factory tuned right for the frame and alchemy supension system , so I wonder if I ll be able to tune up Mara around that system myself to get better than factory dpx2. Could you share your inputs, I am trying to figure out myself but I am not that experienced yet to be confident. Here is link to give you basic idea of my suspension , the progression curve is there https://alchemybicycles.com/journal/sine-suspension-explained/ Thank you


My DPS was also 'factory tuned' for my frame, but was still far too linear and would bottom out on any decent jump or drop when running any pressure that managed even the slightest bit of small bump compliance. I wouldn't put much value in the factory tuning. It's usually just the bike manufacturer choosing a spacer and compression level I think. If you want the right tuning for your weight, bike and riding style, you have to get it custom tuned. 
I would try the Mara Pro. Better performance and better tunability will most likely improve your bike.


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

Hello, 
thanks for sharing your input, appreciate it. Anyway I was thinking more about how to tune Mara to fit the progression curve of my suspension, rather then my weight and style etc.. Cause that is what I understand if the vendor claims he provides custom tuned shocks for his frame.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

torcha said:


> Hello,
> thanks for sharing your input, appreciate it. Anyway I was thinking more about how to tune Mara to fit the progression curve of my suspension, rather then my weight and style etc.. Cause that is what I understand if the vendor claims he provides custom tuned shocks for his frame.


There is a lot of info on this thread https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-susp...ggy-back-shock-spotted-sea-otter-1101572.html

Progression can be tuned by using spacers, just like with the DPX2. The difference is in damper performance.


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

Can anyone comment on this, it is not exactly superb review of Mara https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/rear-shocks/manitou-mara-pro-rear-shock-review/


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

torcha said:


> Can anyone comment on this, it is not exactly superb review of Mara https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/rear-shocks/manitou-mara-pro-rear-shock-review/


On a first glance it's a falling rate bike and he didn't have enough air spring progression.

So he ran more air pressure and it felt harsh. Duh.

If you read the review on the same bike with a Monarch, the tester has exactly the same complaint:

[quote="bikerader']My main gripe was with the RockShox Monarch Plus RC3 rear shock. It caused the suspension to be harsh off the top and blow through its travel too quickly. This meant I had to run high spring pressures on the shock to compensate for the bike's in-built kinematics.[/quote]

https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/b...ain-bikes/orange-stage-6-rs-long-term-review/

So the bike felt awful. They put a different shock on it and it still felt awful. But now it's the new shocks fault!?


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

Dougal said:


> On a first glance it's a falling rate bike and he didn't have enough air spring progression.
> 
> So he ran more air pressure and it felt harsh. Duh.
> 
> ...


Thank you , I had a feeling he is missing something.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

torcha said:


> Thank you , I had a feeling he is missing something.


It seems like a poor choice of bike for a shock review. Not exactly a good representation of current suspension design trends.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Velodonata said:


> It seems like a poor choice of bike for a shock review. Not exactly a good representation of current suspension design trends.


Especially when the same complaints apply to the stock shock. The bike review is full of words about trying different shock setups and not being happy. Yet the bike still got a good review and the monarch got blamed!

Then the Mara got blamed too.

Sure you could tune around it. But you'll need a lot of air spring progression to make it feel okay on a high leverage falling rate bike. It says in the review that Manitou put a larger volume spacer in. But it obviously wasn't enough.
The tester keeps raving about a Float X2 on the same bike. The Float X2 has almost no compression damping and relies entirely on air spring progression. So that's clue #3.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

https://singletrackworld.com/2020/02/review-manitou-mara-pro-do-you-like-to-party/
"Small bump compliance is exceptional for an air shock. Coupled with good support and progression, that makes that Mara a high performing, rock-solid option for those looking to upgrade their air shock."

Tested on a different bike and wildly different outcome.
Probable conclusion: don't buy it when riding an Orange Stage 6 (or another bike with comparable linkage kinematics). Buy it if riding another bike?


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

Mac1987 said:


> https://singletrackworld.com/2020/02/review-manitou-mara-pro-do-you-like-to-party/
> "Small bump compliance is exceptional for an air shock. Coupled with good support and progression, that makes that Mara a high performing, rock-solid option for those looking to upgrade their air shock."
> 
> Tested on a different bike and wildly different outcome.
> Probable conclusion: don't buy it when riding an Orange Stage 6 (or another bike with comparable linkage kinematics). Buy it if riding another bike?


I hope I will be fine with mine


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

torcha said:


> I hope I will be fine with mine
> View attachment 1332923


Without actual measurements incl. values and units it's just conjecture, but the description seems to indicate the travel is mostly progressive with a small digressive part at the beginning and end of travel. If you ask me, it'll be fine, but Dougal and Mullen might be better qualified in answering your question.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Mac1987 said:


> Tested on a different bike and wildly different outcome.
> Probable conclusion: don't buy it when riding an Orange Stage 6 (or another bike with comparable linkage kinematics). Buy it if riding another bike?


The same guy even mentions in his review of the bike that he stuck with the older version of the frame, of which for 2020 was updated to be more progressive.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

So, I opened up my 210x50 Mara to have a look at the air can, and have a couple questions.

Am I correct on my labeling here?










As far as air can tuning goes, what are my options?

Is the adjustment purely for main chamber volume tuning, or negative chamber as well?

In the outer sleeve, there is an o-ring in the middle position. So, I can take the o-ring out entirely for full-volume, yes? How do I reduce volume?

Can I just depressurize the IFP and open the bleed screw to see if any bubbles have settled to the top, without going through a full bleed procedure?

Last one: Is this a good choice fluid to use? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DSGHLNC/


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

torcha said:


> Can anyone comment on this, it is not exactly superb review of Mara https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/rear-shocks/manitou-mara-pro-rear-shock-review/


This whole write-up is kinda comical. How does someone like that get a job writing for Bike Radar?

"I encountered a small issue when fitting the front wheel. The Mezzer fork isn't compatible with the torque caps that are fitted on the Hope Pro 4 hubs from the factory," -- If you're not familiar with the RS torque caps should you really be writing a review for anyone? Then he had to go buy "adapters" to run the Mezzer. Oh boy.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Porch said:


> This whole write-up is kinda comical. How does someone like that get a job writing for Bike Radar? "I encountered a small issue when fitting the front wheel. The Mezzer fork isn't compatible with the torque caps that are fitted on the Hope Pro 4 hubs from the factory," -- If you're not familiar with the RS torque caps should you really be writing a review for anyone? Then he had to go buy "adapters" to run the Mezzer. Oh boy.


He also described the negative/positive air equalization on the Mezzer wrong in the Mara review. Details matter.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> So, I opened up my 210x50 Mara to have a look at the air can, and have a couple questions.
> 
> Am I correct on my labeling here?
> 
> ...


You can try to use the port on the seal-head. But the one on the bottom of the damper body is better. It's a standard M5 like a lot of brakes and seat-posts.

Labelling is all good.

Air spring tuning factory options are main chamber only. You can, of course, experiment with the negative as much as you like. Others (including me) have run setups like notched cans, external valves to set pos/neg balance etc.

All it can really cost you is a few air-cans!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> You can try to use the port on the seal-head. But the one on the bottom of the damper body is better. It's a standard M5 like a lot of brakes and seat-posts.
> 
> Labelling is all good.
> 
> ...


Sweet, thanks Dougal.


So I can just pop one of those delrin spacers out and 210x50 becomes 217x57?


What's your choice fluid? (US availability)


I can't reduce volume with the o-rings right? Just large and intermediate? I can get tokens to reduce?


...and just to confirm: IFP chamber must be emptied before opening the bleed port, or it will blast out? Haven't done much with shocks besides air can service.


Grease coating was very light on all the air can components. No sign of any oil in there. Do the Manitou shocks not run a few CCs of oil on either side of the air piston?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Update on those 7mm delrin spacers: removing one doesn't change the eye-to-eye length. That must be limited internally by the damper shaft. 

Bummer. I think I could accommodate a longer shock. I guess those spacers are just there to put the foam top-out rings in the correct position. 

Sent from my 2PZC5 using Tapatalk


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## ChocolateThunder (Jul 23, 2006)

CCS86 said:


> Sweet, thanks Dougal.
> 
> What's your choice fluid? (US availability)


See post #55 for your answer. The one you linked is too light. I mean, it might work, but why not get something closer to what was intended? Also worth noting that Maxima is petroleum, but stock fluid is mineral-based.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Sweet, thanks Dougal.
> 
> 
> So I can just pop one of those delrin spacers out and 210x50 becomes 217x57?
> ...


210x50 and 210x55 are the same chassis with a shaft spacer to limit stroke. I haven't checked what effect removing top-out spacers (in air can) will give. On the McLeods they were needed to keep the top-out forces away from the compression adjust mechanism on top of the piston. The Mara is immune from that so it can be extended until the damper strokes out.

You can use o-rings and volume bands for travel reduction in the outer can. Volume bands are close to fitting or not fitting.

I am still on the stock Maxima 5wt (85/150 blue is basically the same). Normally I use Motorex 2.5wt or a special higher VI oil (Shockcraft Hot Oil Pink). This summer I've been testing stock and haven't had any issues getting the shock hot enough to need a higher spec fluid like I did with the McLeod.

Yes drop IFP pressure first. Stops it becoming an oil-pistol!

Just grease in air-cans. Slickoleum does a great job of creating a continuous lube film. Oil acts like a solvent and washes it off.


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## PhillipJ (Aug 23, 2013)

Porch said:


> This whole write-up is kinda comical. How does someone like that get a job writing for Bike Radar?


All of Bikeradar's mountain bike content is a joke. They make Pinkbike look like a peer reviewed journal.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

PhillipJ said:


> All of Bikeradar's mountain bike content is a joke. They make Pinkbike look like a peer reviewed journal.


Hahahaha

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ChocolateThunder said:


> See post #55 for your answer. The one you linked is too light. I mean, it might work, but why not get something closer to what was intended? Also worth noting that Maxima is petroleum, but stock fluid is mineral-based.


Thanks for that. I guess Dougal was saying that the physical properties are a close match, even though the base is different? Any concern on mixing the two?



Dougal said:


> 210x50 and 210x55 are the same chassis with a shaft spacer to limit stroke. I haven't checked what effect removing top-out spacers (in air can) will give. On the McLeods they were needed to keep the top-out forces away from the compression adjust mechanism on top of the piston. The Mara is immune from that so it can be extended until the damper strokes out.
> 
> You can use o-rings and volume bands for travel reduction in the outer can. Volume bands are close to fitting or not fitting.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dougal

Is there any chance of the damper shaft being internally limited, or do they just go to a different shaft altogether for the longer shock variants?

So the Rockshox bottomless rings kinda fit, but not too well? I could always 3D print a little split sleeve.

With summer in TX coming, and the downhill park opening back up, I'm sure I will put the fluid through its paces. Anything US available close to your Hot Oil Pink?

Judging by the feel of the air can coming off vs going back on, it needed a can reset. This may have skewed my air pressure low. I'll see how it rides today with a fresh negative charge before I reduce.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Made a tool to assist with the air can. Man, does it make reinstalling it easier, with no risk of damage.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CCS86 said:


> Made a tool to assist with the air can. Man, does it make reinstalling it easier, with no risk of damage.
> 
> View attachment 1333185


Err, made? That looks cool as sht! Will that work for the Mcleod? Can you make me one?


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

CCS86 said:


> Update on those 7mm delrin spacers: removing one doesn't change the eye-to-eye length. That must be limited internally by the damper shaft.
> 
> Bummer. I think I could accommodate a longer shock. I guess those spacers are just there to put the foam top-out rings in the correct position.


So you were looking to buy a longer shock (say 230x60) and run it at 210x55?

I mean, that's what I would want to do. It'd allow me to buy a shock that I might want in the future but run it on today's bike. Especially since nearly ever metric-specific frame is running either 230 or 210 i2i.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

CCS86 said:


> With summer in TX coming, and the downhill park opening back up, I'm sure I will put the fluid through its paces. Anything US available close to your Hot Oil Pink?


Also interested in this since overseas shipping is terrible right now.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

PHeller said:


> So you were looking to buy a longer shock (say 230x60) and run it at 210x55?
> 
> I mean, that's what I would want to do. It'd allow me to buy a shock that I might want in the future but run it on today's bike. Especially since nearly ever metric-specific frame is running either 230 or 210 i2i.


That would be nice since BTI and QBP (e.g., my LBS) have extremely limited stock on these shocks right now.

How much commonality is there between these shocks? I need a 210x55 as well. BTI has 205x65 and 222x68. And then of course I'd need to order spacers if these would work...


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Usually there are a lot of parts that are different. Stanchion tube, damper shaft, reservoir tube, air can body...this list would go on. Unless you happen to pick up a whole myriad of spare parts like that for virtually nothing, it usually doesn't make financial sense to adapt one size to another.

Now, from a custom standpoint, that might be different. Maybe you could get away with making some spacers.

What's interesting is that when I look at the exploded diagram of the Mara, there does appear to be some "negative spacers" stacked with the negative bumper.

All shocks have the same part for a "Bumper". The Standard sized shocks all use the same negative spacer "1" but it's different part for Metric. Metric shocks all use a second spacer "2" but those are all the same.

My best guess is that to reduce the number of parts necessary, they are using the same internals (but different reservoir, air can, stanchion) on all shocks.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Vespasianus said:


> Err, made? That looks cool as sht! Will that work for the Mcleod? Can you make me one?


Yeah, after one go at putting the air can back on, fighting the outer sleeve coming out of place, then using a giant crescent wrench to push down on the hex and get the threads started (trying not to damage the anodization), I said enough... Out came the calipers, off to CAD, then let the 3D printer work for around 5 hours. First revision worked beautifully.

Double check the size of the hex on your Mcleod (flat to flat). Even if it was different I could make a different version. Maybe $20?



PHeller said:


> So you were looking to buy a longer shock (say 230x60) and run it at 210x55?
> 
> I mean, that's what I would want to do. It'd allow me to buy a shock that I might want in the future but run it on today's bike. Especially since nearly ever metric-specific frame is running either 230 or 210 i2i.


Not really. My stock size is 210x50. I have already overforked the front, but eeking out a bit more than the 120mm rear travel is a harder game. My Rift Zone frame doesn't have much overtravel built in, but could accommodate a somewhat longer shock. I thought about buying the 216mm shock, but availability wasn't good at the time, and I didn't know for sure it would work.



Porch said:


> That would be nice since BTI and QBP (e.g., my LBS) have extremely limited stock on these shocks right now.
> 
> How much commonality is there between these shocks? I need a 210x55 as well. BTI has 205x65 and 222x68. And then of course I'd need to order spacers if these would work...


If you can't easily find a 210x55, you can get a 210x50 and remove the internal spacer. They are the same with that change.



PHeller said:


> Usually there are a lot of parts that are different. Stanchion tube, damper shaft, reservoir tube, air can body...this list would go on. Unless you happen to pick up a whole myriad of spare parts like that for virtually nothing, it usually doesn't make financial sense to adapt one size to another.
> 
> Now, from a custom standpoint, that might be different. Maybe you could get away with making some spacers.
> 
> ...


Great post! Where did you get the cutaway? (and do you have a larger version?)

I have been bugging Hayes about getting a service manual, which they claim will be published by today.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc...60055426994/Mara_Piggyback_Service_Manual.pdf


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

For higher VI fluids the Motorex 2.5wt and then the Maxima 3wt red are easy options to find. I don't recommend fully synthetic shock oils as I've seen too many corrosion issues with some brands.

I went to Hot Oil Pink in the McLeod as rapid heating and cooling of the shock in certain types of riding (i.e. whoops, stop and yarn, whoops, stop and yarn) was giving rapidly changing rebound. The higher VI of the Hot Oil Pink muted it to the point it wasn't an issue.

The Mara with more thermal mass and more oil hasn't been a problem at all in that regard with the stock oil. 

Manitou do share parts between some sizes, but not to the extent of being able to skip a whole frame size (i.e. 210x55 to 230x65).
Trunnion and Eyelet versions will have the same internals but different shaft heads. 25mm difference in length between those. So a 230x60/65 eyelet shares parts with a 205x60/65 trunnion.

They also do a special 230x60 trunnion for Trek Remedy and Slash owners sick of Re-Aktiv. I need to order some of those.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

CCS86 said:


> Made a tool to assist with the air can. Man, does it make reinstalling it easier, with no risk of damage.
> 
> View attachment 1333185


Awesome! Where can we order?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

After doing the air can service and making a more accurate bottom of stroke mark, I am finding myself bottoming too easily. I bumped pressure up to 155 psi (from 142), but still found it bottoming. I weigh 155 lbs / 70 kg + gear.

The air can is in the default "intermediate" setting. Here is my frame leverage ratio:









Does it make sense for my weight and these kinematics, that I would have to reduce volume? Or should I focus on adding damping first?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

PHeller said:


> https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc...60055426994/Mara_Piggyback_Service_Manual.pdf


_You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PHeller again._

Thank you sir!

Hayes is slacking... up on their site, still not in the directory: https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/sections/360005599233-Shock-Service-Guides


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

How many different air cans are there? Do McLeod cans fit the Mara?

I assume that the air cans vary in size to match the stroke length. So a 200x56 air can and a 210x55mm air can are the same?

Are all sizes shipping with the King can? I personally don't like that aesthetic of a shock can that's not tapered and shaped. I think the Topaz 2 looks better than the Topaz, the Deluxe Debonair looks better than the Monarch Debonair, the SR Suntour Edge looks better than TriAir. There is something about shaping the AirCan that makes the shock look svelte and light, even if there is no difference.

















There are two different reservoir sizes right?

Man it'd be easier if Manitou/Hayes just had a full parts catalog online with the ability to purchase whatever you needed, no questions asked. It's one of the more frustrating things about Manitou. Fox and RS I can look through a list of all parts available. I can call and say "I need part number so and so" and they'll send it to me, without worrying if will fit my product. If I don't ask questions, they won't either. If I ask "I want to switch from this damper to this damper in this year product" they'll tell me what works and what doesn't.

Manitou is kind silent on that stuff.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CCS86 said:


> Yeah, after one go at putting the air can back on, fighting the outer sleeve coming out of place, then using a giant crescent wrench to push down on the hex and get the threads started (trying not to damage the anodization), I said enough... Out came the calipers, off to CAD, then let the 3D printer work for around 5 hours. First revision worked beautifully.
> 
> Double check the size of the hex on your Mcleod (flat to flat). Even if it was different I could make a different version. Maybe $20?


Dude, I would do $20 and a six pack of your favorite beer!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> For higher VI fluids the Motorex 2.5wt and then the Maxima 3wt red are easy options to find. I don't recommend fully synthetic shock oils as I've seen too many corrosion issues with some brands..


Is this the Maxima 3wt you are referring to?
https://smile.amazon.com/Maxima-58901L-Light-Formula-Racing/dp/B000MYAH20/

The price is pretty negligible between that and the other Maxima fluid mentioned:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WJVGKW/

3wt vs 5wt seems like a big proportional jump in weight, but I know these are "nominal" at best. Would you recommend one over the other?



Dougal said:


> Manitou do share parts between some sizes, but not to the extent of being able to skip a whole frame size (i.e. 210x55 to 230x65).
> Trunnion and Eyelet versions will have the same internals but different shaft heads. 25mm difference in length between those. So a 230x60/65 eyelet shares parts with a 205x60/65 trunnion.


Do you happen to know where that leaves the 216x63?


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

CCS86 said:


> So, I opened up my 210x50 Mara to have a look...


So I'm looking at this.

My thought is that the 210 i2i has a specific length damper shaft, as you mentioned. Very rarely can a shorter shock be extended....but can a longer shock be artificially limited in size?

The next question would be - if you stuck in a few more of those white spacers, how long would the i2i be? As Dougal was eluding to, this is probably why Manitou isn't suggesting people tune the negative volume. If you pull those spacers out you might end up with top-out clunk. Especially if the negative pressure exceeds the main chamber volume.

With a bunch more spacers in there, what happens when things can never "rest" as in, they are prevented from topping out?

This idea was discussed on some other forums long ago for shocks that equalization ports - something the Mara and McLeod lack.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Is this the Maxima 3wt you are referring to?
> https://smile.amazon.com/Maxima-58901L-Light-Formula-Racing/dp/B000MYAH20/
> 
> The price is pretty negligible between that and the other Maxima fluid mentioned:
> ...


Yep that 3wt is the one. Same stuff RS used to use. 3wt means it's designed to be a shock fluid. 2.5wt or 5wt means it's a fork fluid which may be similar viscosity but generally lower VI and more focused on slipperyness.

216x63 is available in Mara Pro. That's what I ride.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Thanks Dougal, I got some Maxima 3wt.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> 216x63 is available in Mara Pro. That's what I ride.


I was curious whether that size, component wise, was closer to the 210 family, or the 230 family. Maybe it is just its own entity.

As far as why? Just because I still have a little hope that with a couple internal components (new or modified), I might be able to make my 210x50 a 214x54, or something like that.



Dougal said:


> Manitou do share parts between some sizes, but not to the extent of being able to skip a whole frame size (i.e. 210x55 to 230x65).
> Trunnion and Eyelet versions will have the same internals but different shaft heads. 25mm difference in length between those. So a 230x60/65 eyelet shares parts with a 205x60/65 trunnion.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

I went ahead and printed out some volume reducers to test out:


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## Bluegill (Mar 28, 2018)

Hello, I have a new-to-me Mara Pro (and Mezzer front). I contacted Hayes Performance directly and they don't have a setup or service guide available. Looking for advice on what air pressure to run and any information on the various other tune-able aspects of the shock. It rides very nicely but I feel like I'm too deep into the travel even on light stuff. I'm about 200 lbs buck naked and easily 210+ when riding with water on my back. I don't know how much the guy I bought the frame, Mara, and Mezzer weighed but I'm pretty sure he was less than me.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Bluegill said:


> Hello, I have a new-to-me Mara Pro (and Mezzer front). I contacted Hayes Performance directly and they don't have a setup or service guide available. Looking for advice on what air pressure to run and any information on the various other tune-able aspects of the shock. It rides very nicely but I feel like I'm too deep into the travel even on light stuff. I'm about 200 lbs buck naked and easily 210+ when riding with water on my back. I don't know how much the guy I bought the frame, Mara, and Mezzer weighed but I'm pretty sure he was less than me.


Look at post #95 for the service manual.

The Hayes website has the setup guide.

What pressure is in the shock now?

Also, do you know the linkage ratio curve of your frame? Looking at it, I bet it is super flat, which would mean you are going to rely heavily on shock progression. I don't even know if they sell a"standard" can for the Mara. But you will probably want to pop the air can sleeve off to see what setting it is on, and try reducing as much as possible.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I saw something awhile back that indicated a McLeod can will fit the Mara if the size is the same (210 i2i cans should be interchangeable).

Which is why I was asking Dougal how many different air cans their are: if they made air cans based on stroke _ranges_, then a 190x50, 200x50, 200x56, 210x50, and 210x55 would all be the same. However, I've noticed that even on Manitou's web site, they listed the 200x50 and 190x50 cans as being the same, but the 200x56 being different as well as the 216x63.

I suspect that 200x56 and 210x50/55 use the same air can, but since Manitou doesn't provide us with a parts list, it's hard to tell.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Well, I had been assuming that my Shimano cassette tool was going to fit the IFP chamber on my Mara... until today when I tried it.

It has the same number of splines and the size is super close. But the cassette tool is just too big.

3D printer to the rescue! Prints don't lend themselves well to tiny details and the splines on the IFP cap are VERY shallow, but I had very little to lose in trying.

End result worked perfectly!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Well, I had been assuming that my Shimano cassette tool was going to fit the IFP chamber on my Mara... until today when I tried it.
> 
> It has the same number of splines and the size is super close. But the cassette tool is just too big.
> 
> ...


A Freewheel tool fits it. Park FR1.3 etc.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PHeller said:


> I saw something awhile back that indicated a McLeod can will fit the Mara if the size is the same (210 i2i cans should be interchangeable).
> 
> Which is why I was asking Dougal how many different air cans their are: if they made air cans based on stroke _ranges_, then a 190x50, 200x50, 200x56, 210x50, and 210x55 would all be the same. However, I've noticed that even on Manitou's web site, they listed the 200x50 and 190x50 cans as being the same, but the 200x56 being different as well as the 216x63.
> 
> I suspect that 200x56 and 210x50/55 use the same air can, but since Manitou doesn't provide us with a parts list, it's hard to tell.


Mara cans have external cap threads. McLeod cans have internal cap threads. So that's a show-stopper right there.
I posted up on the McLeod thread about it: https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-susp...r-shock-956836-post14756235.html#post14756235


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> A Freewheel tool fits it. Park FR1.3 etc.


Interesting.

I have Park Tools for the bottom bracket, spoke tension, etc; but have a generic freewheel tool. It fits just fine in my Shimano freewheel nut, loose if anything, but would not fit into the Mara's cap.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

I wasn't expecting to see any fluid in the back side of the IFP. It is not a ton, but a small puddle.

Also, according to the "pre-release" service manual, the depth is too shallow. From the top of the reservoir down the top lip of the IFP, I measure 16.8mm (shock full extension), and from the top down to the bottom of the IFP "cup", 26.6mm. I'm not sure what the reference is supposed to be (I'm guessing top lip), but the table says it should be 40mm. That's quite a ways off!

I'm planning to hook my syringe to the eyelet port and pump fluid back and forth by pushing the IFP in, then the syringe. Then I'll set the depth per the manual and see how that feels.

Maybe too little IFP air volume is contributing to my issue balancing sag and bottom out.









Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I have Park Tools for the bottom bracket, spoke tension, etc; but have a generic freewheel tool. It fits just fine in my Shimano freewheel nut, loose if anything, but would not fit into the Mara's cap.


It's the tool you use to take screw-on freewheels off kids bikes. Just different enough (smaller) to a cassette tool that a lot of people have damaged cassette lockrings by using freewheel tools in them.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I stumbled across another Orange Stage 6 review. Same tester but this one on Pinkbike.

The comments are pretty good: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-orange-stage-6-rs.html


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Those comments are outstanding, hahaha

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

CCS86 said:


> Those comments are outstanding, hahaha


Word of advice, don't be drinking coffee while reading them.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Thinking more about my IFP situation...


Is fully airing down the IFP and fully compressing the shock a recipe to overtravel the IFP and burp fluid out / suck air in?

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CCS86 said:


> I wasn't expecting to see any fluid in the back side of the IFP. It is not a ton, but a small puddle.
> 
> Also, according to the "pre-release" service manual, the depth is too shallow. From the top of the reservoir down the top lip of the IFP, I measure 16.8mm (shock full extension), and from the top down to the bottom of the IFP "cup", 26.6mm. I'm not sure what the reference is supposed to be (I'm guessing top lip), but the table says it should be 40mm. That's quite a ways off!
> 
> ...


I little left over fluid behind the IFP is common from the factory. I have yet to see one that did not have the a little bit in there.

The 40mm is to the deepest part of the IFP. You can crack one of the bleed ports, with out without a syringe (messy without out but still works), and set at 40mm. Leave the shock fully extended while doing this.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CCS86 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I have Park Tools for the bottom bracket, spoke tension, etc; but have a generic freewheel tool. It fits just fine in my Shimano freewheel nut, loose if anything, but would not fit into the Mara's cap.


Technically speaking, the correct tool is the same pin spanner that is used to remove the "party" base valve from the top cap. I dont believe those are for sale to the public yet.

Good use of a 3D printer though!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

PHeller said:


> How many different air cans are there? Do McLeod cans fit the Mara?
> 
> I assume that the air cans vary in size to match the stroke length. So a 200x56 air can and a 210x55mm air can are the same?
> 
> ...


Mcleod cans do not fit, Different thread designs (Mcleod can has internal threads, Mara uses external). They will cross over in the future.

There are 2 reservoir lengths, the short is 15mm shorter than the long. For the most part, strokes 60mm and under get the short version, Over 60mm strokes get the long version. The 216x63 is the exception to this rule, shipping with the short reservoir from the factory.

Its not as easy as looking at a web page, but you can email [email protected] and ask for pretty much any part number and get pretty much anything you want.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

mullen119 said:


> I little left over fluid behind the IFP is common from the factory. I have yet to see one that did not have the a little bit in there.
> 
> The 40mm is to the deepest part of the IFP. You can crack one of the bleed ports, with out without a syringe (messy without out but still works), and set at 40mm. Leave the shock fully extended while doing this.


Thanks Mullen!

The IFP felt squishy, so I carefully popped it out to have a look. I'm in the process of re-bleeding now, and it's a little tricky. The dish in the fluid side of the IFP means that you always capture some air when installing.

It is flexible enough that just by pushing with a finger, slightly off center, you can actually burp air/fluid past the IFP. With the shock at a 45* angle, that helps get some of it out. But, I'm finding that there is more left behind.

Current technique is to leave the syringe attached to the eyelet port and with the IFP near top of stroke, rotate the shock into a normal, vertical position. This lets any bubbles in the reservoir move up towards the valving. Then I draw on the syringe, while pushing on the IFP, until I move it about halfway. Then, I flip the shock 180* to put the bleed port at the top. Give it some time for bubbles to rise, then continue pushing/drawing the IFP to the bottom. Repeat.

I think I am getting close now, but open to suggestions on a better approach.

One of the times I burped some fluid past the IFP, it appeared to be full of metallic flake. It looked exactly like anti-seize. My first thought was that it was from one of my tools, but I couldn't find any. Ever seen this?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CCS86 said:


> Thanks Mullen!
> 
> The IFP felt squishy, so I carefully popped it out to have a look. I'm in the process of re-bleeding now, and it's a little tricky. The dish in the fluid side of the IFP means that you always capture some air when installing.
> 
> ...


One thing I do personally that is not required in the Manitou bleed procedure is the following:

Before installing IFP , I remove the clip that hold the LSC needle in place, and back it almost all the way out. I then fill the reservoir up and install IFP just enough for it to seal. I then lay the shock on its side and remove the LSC needle, and tip the shock so the open port is at the highest point, and install the IFP about half way. This pushes oil and any air out of the LSC port. Reinstall needle and move on to the next step of the bleed procedure.

The clip is finicky to get seated when you reinstall it. The other option is to push on the rubber membrane of the IFP in the center to make in rounded, which in theory will push the air out the sides as its installed.

I have come across dirty oil in relatively low hour shocks that resembles metal flakes on first glance, but it never has turned out to be metal. For whatever reason, the oil color degrades quickly. Life cycle tests have shown no performance changes from this. The Mara has shown shockingly (pun intended) long life cycles before the performance starts to degrade.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Thanks for the tip Mullen. Sounds like that would save some time.

Is fully airing down the IFP and fully compressing the shock a recipe to overtravel the IFP and burp fluid out / suck air in? I don't have a normal need to do this, it just made putting a bottom out sticker on the shaft easier.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

My latest printed tool: IFP depth setter

Nice slip fit inside the IFP cup. Initial barrel is the IFP set depth (40mm). Handle is long enough to push the IFP to the bottom for bleeding. Pressure gets distributed evenly so the IFP doesn't deform and burp fluid.









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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Anyone have feedback on Mara vs DPX2? Noticable ride characteristic differences? Good, bad it otherwise?


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Finally got my delivery from DHL (~1.5 months), so the Mara is officially on my v1 Ripmo!

It looks like with the King Can on the middle setting I'm ending up with a CR of about 2.5. From prior experience on my Ripmo I need more like a 2.9-3.1. I don't see a way to do that short of cutting up some bits of plastic and putting them in the half chamber to take up space? Or finding a standard can if they even make those for this shock.

Secondly (and expectedly) Shockwiz is already recommending a much softer HSC tune, which is very common on this frame. I'm not sure what the current stack looks like, and I'm curious if anyone is willing to share some of their suggestions for softening it up. I'm also happy to pay for expert advice, but don't really want to ship the shock off right now.

The funny thing is that the Shockwiz says i'm way off on a lot of settings, but a quick trip down my neighborhood DH run felt better than my "dialed" X2.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

wildh said:


> Anyone have feedback on Mara vs DPX2? Noticable ride characteristic differences? Good, bad it otherwise?


So different they should never be compared.



ungod said:


> Finally got my delivery from DHL (~1.5 months), so the Mara is officially on my v1 Ripmo!
> 
> It looks like with the King Can on the middle setting I'm ending up with a CR of about 2.5. From prior experience on my Ripmo I need more like a 2.9-3.1. I don't see a way to do that short of cutting up some bits of plastic and putting them in the half chamber to take up space? Or finding a standard can if they even make those for this shock.
> 
> ...


You can reduce air volume with spacers in the outer can. Just like every other shock. I haven't tried the rockshox spacer rings in the Mara. However with a better damper you don't need to rely on air spring progression Like Monarchs and X2's. So don't do anything with that just yet.

Ignore shockwiz. Dial it in the right way with response, rebound, compression then ride height: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/setup-guide


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

@dougal I guess my point was that there are not ready-made spacers for the air can. You're right though, I will try to work with what I've got for now. I've read through your tuning guide before and I'll do it again!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

I could sell 3D printed spacers like I am running. 

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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

DPX2 is harder to fine tune than the Mara. 
DPX2 HSC Switch is not as effective as the two position work/party switch on the Mara.
Mara feels more bottomless and more linear (coil spring like) than the DPX2.

I don't hate my DPX2, but in time I'll probably replace it with a Mara.

Buying new? Get a Mara.



wildh said:


> Anyone have feedback on Mara vs DPX2? Noticable ride characteristic differences? Good, bad it otherwise?


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Dougal said:


> So different they should never be compared.
> 
> You can reduce air volume with spacers in the outer can. Just like every other shock. I haven't tried the rockshox spacer rings in the Mara. However with a better damper you don't need to rely on air spring progression Like Monarchs and X2's. So don't do anything with that just yet.
> 
> Ignore shockwiz. Dial it in the right way with response, rebound, compression then ride height: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/setup-guide


Dougal can you expand a bit in how they are different? I have a gt Force 27.5 with fox 36 grip 2 and dpx2. I ordered a Mezzer 29 to convert it to a mullet because I'm not in love with the 36.

I find it harder to tell differences on rear shocks though so any input would be appreciated. Is the pedaling platform better, etc.

Also.. Thanks for your input and sharing of knowledge. Your website is very informative and helpful. I placed an order for some stuff last week and look forward to putting it to use.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

CCS86 said:


> I could sell 3D printed spacers like I am running.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


I'd take some. I'll shoot you a message.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I had time for a longer ride (shuttle actually) this evening and was able to get the Mara dialed in pretty quickly. It did require a spacer for my bike, a v1 Ripmo. I used some plastic sheet I had lying around to make a 0.5" x 4" spacer, which put me at a 2.8:1 CR according to the shockwiz. I think I will go back and make this a 0.5" x 5" to get a slightly higher CR. I have the HSC as firm as it can go without getting spikey (thanks for the suggestions here and on your website, Dougal), but I'm still getting close to bottom-out on smaller jumps. These bikes have a digressive final curve so this is a bike issue and not a shock issue.

I'm coming off a 2020 Fox X2 that I felt was as good as I could get it using a combination of a shockwiz and experimentation. The Mara just smokes it all-around. I actually keep traction while standing and climbing now. The trail disappears under the rear tire. On the downhills it was extremely well composed and there was no fade on over 3000ft of rocky descent.

The Ripmo is of the "long, low, slack" category, and I've been dealing with a lot of pedal strikes since I live in an area with a lot of steep technical climbs. The biggest improvement I notice right away with the Mara is a major reduction in pedal strikes, which I assume is due to a much better mid-stroke support. My shockwiz is encouraging me to increase the LSC further, but I haven't even felt the need to. I can stand up and crank up a steep scrabbly hill now, and this is going to change the way I ride considerably. I haven't even tried the "Work" mode for climbing yet.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Does Manitou make a remote for this shock? On my GT Force I find myself switching often but it's kind of a pain to look and reach down for it.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

ungod said:


> I had time for a longer ride (shuttle actually) this evening and was able to get the Mara dialed in pretty quickly. It did require a spacer for my bike, a v1 Ripmo. I used some plastic sheet I had lying around to make a 0.5" x 4" spacer, which put me at a 2.8:1 CR according to the shockwiz. I think I will go back and make this a 0.5" x 5" to get a slightly higher CR. I have the HSC as firm as it can go without getting spikey (thanks for the suggestions here and on your website, Dougal), but I'm still getting close to bottom-out on smaller jumps. These bikes have a digressive final curve so this is a bike issue and not a shock issue.
> 
> I'm coming off a 2020 Fox X2 that I felt was as good as I could get it using a combination of a shockwiz and experimentation. The Mara just smokes it all-around. I actually keep traction while standing and climbing now. The trail disappears under the rear tire. On the downhills it was extremely well composed and there was no fade on over 3000ft of rocky descent.
> 
> The Ripmo is of the "long, low, slack" category, and I've been dealing with a lot of pedal strikes since I live in an area with a lot of steep technical climbs. The biggest improvement I notice right away with the Mara is a major reduction in pedal strikes, which I assume is due to a much better mid-stroke support. My shockwiz is encouraging me to increase the LSC further, but I haven't even felt the need to. I can stand up and crank up a steep scrabbly hill now, and this is going to change the way I ride considerably. I haven't even tried the "Work" mode for climbing yet.


This is good information.
Looking to replace the Super Deluxe Coil on my 2019 GG The Smash (29er brother to Bens Megatrail) as I am just not sold on the coil rear. RS stuff (lyrik front with mrp cartridge) just has failed to impress me over the years. Loved the McLeod on my old trail bike which is what is having me wonder if the Mara would be good for the longer travel, I LIKE GOIN' FAST, GG Smash. Seriously debating between the McLeod and Mara Pro (I know Ben would say to get the Mara), just not seriously on the fence.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

gregnash said:


> This is good information.
> Looking to replace the Super Deluxe Coil on my 2019 GG The Smash (29er brother to Bens Megatrail) as I am just not sold on the coil rear. RS stuff (lyrik front with mrp cartridge) just has failed to impress me over the years. Loved the McLeod on my old trail bike which is what is having me wonder if the Mara would be good for the longer travel, I LIKE GOIN' FAST, GG Smash. Seriously debating between the McLeod and Mara Pro (I know Ben would say to get the Mara), just not seriously on the fence.


Well now you have the new non-pro Mara to consider too!

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

wildh said:


> Does Manitou make a remote for this shock? On my GT Force I find myself switching often but it's kind of a pain to look and reach down for it.


Not for the Pro with the piggy back. The new Mara Inline looks to have the holes to fit the remote kit though: https://hayesbicycle.com/collections/xc/products/mara_z


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

CCS86 said:


> Well now you have the new non-pro Mara to consider too!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


Yeah I saw that.... I did read that the MARA is replacing the McLeod in the line-up, so that means that McLeod's are going to be dropping in price, however the MARA does utilize the same tech as the MARA PRO. So......... first world problems!


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

gregnash said:


> Yeah I saw that.... I did read that the MARA is replacing the McLeod in the line-up, so that means that McLeod's are going to be dropping in price, however the MARA does utilize the same tech as the MARA PRO. So......... first world problems!


I hope not. The McLeod is also available in standard sizing, the Mara is only available in metric sizing.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Mac1987 said:


> I hope not. The McLeod is also available in standard sizing, the Mara is only available in metric sizing.


Likely the are only offering metric at launch but will have trunion and standard later once the McLeod stock starts to diminish.


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## Santa Clauz (May 20, 2005)

Hello all,

Looking through this thread and the McLeod thread I happened to check Hayes website and saw that the Mara Pro is available in my size 190x45 for my Santa Cruz Tallboy V4. Question is, would the Mara Pro be a good fit for the lower link VPP design of the bike? I’m about 190-193lbs riding weight, ride chucky east coast (PA) trails with a lot of rocks and roots and not a whole lot of jumping. 

My options are, Mara Pro, McLeod, or send my stock DPS factory to Avay to be tuned. Obviously sending my Fox DPS would be cheapest, but he’s 6 weeks backlogged right now. So if anyone has any input on which would be best, or maybe they would all end up about the same after my shock is tuned?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Santa Clauz said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Looking through this thread and the McLeod thread I happened to check Hayes website and saw that the Mara Pro is available in my size 190x45 for my Santa Cruz Tallboy V4. Question is, would the Mara Pro be a good fit for the lower link VPP design of the bike? I'm about 190-193lbs riding weight, ride chucky east coast (PA) trails with a lot of rocks and roots and not a whole lot of jumping.
> 
> My options are, Mara Pro, McLeod, or send my stock DPS factory to Avay to be tuned. Obviously sending my Fox DPS would be cheapest, but he's 6 weeks backlogged right now. So if anyone has any input on which would be best, or maybe they would all end up about the same after my shock is tuned?


I don't know how an Avalanche tuned DPS will compare to a McLeod (stock the McLeod is miles better, but they do great work). However, a McLeod can be had for $200 on discount. I don't believe Avalanche tuning is that cheap and the complete damper design will need to be swapped to make it comparable to or better than the McLeod.
Also, a Mara Pro will always be better on long rough descents. A small inline shock like the DPS simply can't handle heat as well as the Mara does. Inline doesn't get much better than the McLeod without serious tuning and swapping of parts. And even a McLeod has its limits on lift assisted repeated double black runs at race pace.
I'd say: for cross country up to and including enduro: buy a McLeod. For frequent lift assisted double black downhills at high speeds: Mara Pro.


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## Santa Clauz (May 20, 2005)

Mac,

For reference where can I find a McLeod on discount at?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm not familiar with US shops, but the big German shops have them on discount very often. E.g. Bike24, Bike-Discount, Bike-Components, Rose, etc.
For example: https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mcleod-damper-front-shock-black-431819 for €188 = $211.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Are there any drawings for the mara pro? I would like to see if the 165x45 trunion would fit on a Sniper L and still have room for a water bottle.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Mac1987 said:


> I'm not familiar with US shops, but the big German shops have them on discount very often. E.g. Bike24, Bike-Discount, Bike-Components, Rose, etc.
> For example: https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mcleod-damper-front-shock-black-431819 for €188 = $211.


This is actually where I picked up my McLeod years ago when they were first released. Bike-discount.de is legit.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Still loving my Mara Pro. My one issue is trying to find a setting that gives me good bottom out protection. I have bumped air pressure higher than I would like to run it, added in some extra high and low speed compression, and filled the outer air chamber with spacers.


Here is my setup:

2018 Rift Zone. Leverage ratio starting at 2.85, falling to 2.1 (~36% progressiveness)

210x50 Mara Pro

Geared up, I am about 161 lbs / 70 kg

Air pressure: 142 psi (netting ~16% sag)

LSC: 10 out

HSC: 6 in

REB: 4 out


Even with these changes, it is still too easy to bottom the shock out. The extra damping and minimal sag is definitely taking away from the small bump compliance and climbing grip.

I'm just surprised that with a relatively progressive frame, I find myself in this situation. Not sure what I can do next but try to further reduce the air chamber size with custom spacers or grease.

Thoughts?


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Santa Clauz said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Looking through this thread and the McLeod thread I happened to check Hayes website and saw that the Mara Pro is available in my size 190x45 for my Santa Cruz Tallboy V4. Question is, would the Mara Pro be a good fit for the lower link VPP design of the bike? I'm about 190-193lbs riding weight, ride chucky east coast (PA) trails with a lot of rocks and roots and not a whole lot of jumping.
> 
> My options are, Mara Pro, McLeod, or send my stock DPS factory to Avay to be tuned. Obviously sending my Fox DPS would be cheapest, but he's 6 weeks backlogged right now. So if anyone has any input on which would be best, or maybe they would all end up about the same after my shock is tuned?


Interesting. So they did come out with 190x45 for the Mara Pro. Was told this was just a listing but won't be coming out, but it is indeed available to buy.

Not too sure it will fit. Maybe the regular Mara.


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

Mara 200x56 anywhere for sale? cant find it in entire world..


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

torcha said:


> Mara 200x56 anywhere for sale? cant find it in entire world..


I don't know if they ever made them. There are McLeods in 200x56 only.

You could custom make a 200x55. Take a 210x55 Mara Pro and use the 190x45 metric damper body.*

*I haven't tried this myself yet but was considering usng the same technique to make a 215x60 Mara inline with the Mcleod IFP.


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

they have 200x56 in the list on their site.. guess I ll have till they stock again


Dougal said:


> I don't know if they ever made them. There are McLeods in 200x56 only.
> 
> You could custom make a 200x55. Take a 210x55 Mara Pro and use the 190x45 metric damper body.*
> 
> *I haven't tried this myself yet but was considering usng the same technique to make a 215x60 Mara inline with the Mcleod IFP.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

torcha said:


> they have 200x56 in the list on their site.. guess I ll have till they stock again


Yes but having it in the list doesn't mean they've made them yet. It's been difficult to get anything out the door this year!


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Yes but having it in the list doesn't mean they've made them yet. It's been difficult to get anything out the door this year!


ok , considering youtr option , thing is where do I get dumper body these days , when they are hardly able to produce complete shocks.


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

PHeller said:


> So I'm looking at this.
> 
> My thought is that the 210 i2i has a specific length damper shaft, as you mentioned. Very rarely can a shorter shock be extended....but can a longer shock be artificially limited in size?
> 
> ...


I am curious to know how the negative air chamber is pressurised or is it just set at ambient pressure when assembling the air can? My knowledge isn't great on shocks but to my logic if the negative air chamber is set at ambient then the initial stroke wouldn't be that sensitive as there is a large difference in pressure to overcome between the negative and positive chambers. I presume if manitou have gone down road this there are things to mitigate this but what are they?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Shlec said:


> I am curious to know how the negative air chamber is pressurised or is it just set at ambient pressure when assembling the air can? My knowledge isn't great on shocks but to my logic if the negative air chamber is set at ambient then the initial stroke wouldn't be that sensitive as there is a large difference in pressure to overcome between the negative and positive chambers. I presume if manitou have gone down road this there are things to mitigate this but what are they?


Negative is air trapped during assembly. These do need reset occasionally.

Basically every negative air scheme has it's upsides and downsides. The big upsides to trapped air is travel adjust (nothing stopping you changing shock overall length/travel), no dead point in the stroke and no forced sag point that requires a lot of pressure for heavy riders to overcome.


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## Leicester (Jul 26, 2018)

ChocolateThunder said:


> So I have mine on a bike with a linear leverage ratio curve (so not a curve, actually), starts at 2.8, 19% regressive, ending at ~2.27. The shock on the bike is supple as they come, to the point that despite 30% sag, it bobs like a madman, even with LSC all the way in, HSC 3 clicks out from all-in. LSR all the way in.


Wait, that's not regressive... If the ratio starts at 2.8 and goes to 2.27, the shock does more per wheel travel at the end of the stroke, so it's progressive.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

CCS86 said:


> Still loving my Mara Pro. My one issue is trying to find a setting that gives me good bottom out protection. I have bumped air pressure higher than I would like to run it, added in some extra high and low speed compression, and filled the outer air chamber with spacers.
> 
> Here is my setup:
> 
> ...


Had it out to a jump line a couple days ago and continued to bottom the shock out, despite adding more damping.

I ended up with LSC -7 from closed and HSC +6 from open.

I could really use some suggestions. My latest thought is to try to reduce the negative volume, to gain some plushness back at the current pressure; and to reduce the positive chamber more, for more progressivity.

I could use grease, but am worried it will melt and migrate while riding in 100* weather. So, that leaves me with trying to blueprint the internals and find room for custom spacers.

I'm still a bit at a loss why I'm in this position, given my weight and frame geometry.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

CCS86 said:


> Had it out to a jump line a couple days ago and continued to bottom the shock out, despite adding more damping.
> 
> I ended up with LSC -7 from closed and HSC +6 from open.
> 
> ...


Just glop some grease in the main chamber and try it. There is nowhere for it to migrate to, you could also probably just use Float Fluid or something similar.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

CCS86 said:


> Had it out to a jump line a couple days ago and continued to bottom the shock out, despite adding more damping.
> 
> I ended up with LSC -7 from closed and HSC +6 from open.
> 
> ...


I'm ~185lbs with gear on a Ripmo v1 (~2.85-2.6 frame) on a 210x55 shock. I run 150psi for ~23% sag. Have never fully bottomed the shock. Couldn't tell you my damper settings off the top of my head but I could check tonight if you're interested.

I've settled on about a 3.0:1 CR to prevent bottoming, although the Ripmo is not nearly as progressive as your bike. I have home-made spacers for 2.8:1 and 2.9:1 CR. I'd be happy to mail you a 2.9:1 spacer and you could cut it up to go lower if needed.

I didn't go back and read through your post history, I'm assuming you're already at half-can? Have you verified that the o-ring and backer ring are in place and undamaged? What kind of spacers do you have in the air can?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> I'm ~185lbs with gear on a Ripmo v1 (~2.85-2.6 frame) on a 210x55 shock. I run 150psi for ~23% sag. Have never fully bottomed the shock. Couldn't tell you my damper settings off the top of my head but I could check tonight if you're interested.
> 
> I've settled on about a 3.0:1 CR to prevent bottoming, although the Ripmo is not nearly as progressive as your bike. I have home-made spacers for 2.8:1 and 2.9:1 CR. I'd be happy to mail you a 2.9:1 spacer and you could cut it up to go lower if needed.
> 
> I didn't go back and read through your post history, I'm assuming you're already at half-can? Have you verified that the o-ring and backer ring are in place and undamaged? What kind of spacers do you have in the air can?


Yes, the o-ring is splitting the outer can and I made some 3D printed spacers to fill up the top chamber as completely as possible.

I was curious about the CR I was achieving through this setup, so I just did a little test. I haven't researched the topic, so bear with me if I didn't consider something. I just set topped-out main pressure to a series of low values, then left my digital shock pump connected, forced the shock to bottom-out, waited for pressure to stabilize (shedding some heat), and recorded the result.

I know that the volume of the pump's hose, upstream of the pressure sensor will skew the results on the low side. I guess that I could calculate that affect with some pressure drop (hooking the pump up) tests.

CR seems to be a moving target, dropping as pressure increases.

I plotted the data:









Then, I forecast it out to my normal main pressure:









So, is my true CR the slope of the bottom out pressure with respect to top out pressure (~2.6) ?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

I was scanning around for a range of acceptable values and found this FOX DPX2 chart:









A quick look shows CR's ranging from 2.14 - 4.33 as valid.

In my size (210x50), they show a range of 2.42 - 3.66

If I calculated my actual CR correctly, that puts me in their range, but on the low end.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> I was scanning around for a range of acceptable values and found this FOX DPX2 chart:
> 
> View attachment 1344027
> 
> ...


I am not surprised the DPX2 runs that high. We have seen some insanely progressive setups that honestly make no sense. Women who can't get more than half travel etc.

The way to get more progression and softer top on my old McLeod was a notched air-can which fed into half the outer can. The extra negative volume kept starting rate low but then as the negative tapers off the mid to end stroke is a lot firmer.

However on that one I was tuning around weird bike geometry. Sagging the bike to slacken it out and using a lot of negative with higher positive pressures to provide mid stroke support through bottom-out.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> I am not surprised the DPX2 runs that high. We have seen some insanely progressive setups that honestly make no sense. Women who can't get more than half travel etc.
> 
> The way to get more progression and softer top on my old McLeod was a notched air-can which fed into half the outer can. The extra negative volume kept starting rate low but then as the negative tapers off the mid to end stroke is a lot firmer.
> 
> However on that one I was tuning around weird bike geometry. Sagging the bike to slacken it out and using a lot of negative with higher positive pressures to provide mid stroke support through bottom-out.


Any thoughts on my situation?

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Any thoughts on my situation?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


I'm thinking reducing IFP volume may give you enough ramp. See what you think.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> I'm thinking reducing IFP volume may give you enough ramp. See what you think.


Interesting. I hadn't thought about that.

Will that have a similar effect to an IRT, augmenting the spring rate in the last half of travel? Or will it also change the damping force?


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## Symion (Feb 6, 2009)

Sry that wont work.
The ifp diameter is so small that the force generated wont save you from bottoming out.
Its many times lower then the force generated by the air chamber. Volume spacer is your way to go.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Symion said:


> Sry that wont work.
> The ifp diameter is so small that the force generated wont save you from bottoming out.
> Its many times lower then the force generated by the air chamber. Volume spacer is your way to go.


The diameter of the IFP piston is obviously an important factor, but it is not all that matters. Just saying "it's smaller than the air piston, so it won't help" is not true.

You have to look at its ability to do work. So, in addition to the diameter, you need to consider the starting pressure (much higher than the air spring), the starting air volume, and also the fluid volume displaced over a given range of travel, since that drives displacement of the IFP piston, the CR of that chamber and the pumping work done.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

If I'm understanding your graph, a base psi of 30 (make sure you're pulling up on the saddle and pushing down on the wheel when you take that measurement) that results in a 107psi should be a 3.5:1 CR, no? Which would sound about right if you're really filling up the chamber.

I know this is a stupid question but just to be sure -- you're putting the bands in the chamber that is closest to the IFP elbow, right?

If that's the case I almost think you should just send it back, even with no damping at all you shouldn't be able to bottom a 3.5:1 shock on that bike.

For the record, I measured the stock half air can CR as about 2.5:1 and using a ~1mm thick 3/4" wide strip of plastic wrapped around inside the air can gave me a 3.0:1 CR.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> If I'm understanding your graph, a base psi of 30 (make sure you're pulling up on the saddle and pushing down on the wheel when you take that measurement) that results in a 107psi should be a 3.5:1 CR, no? Which would sound about right if you're really filling up the chamber.
> 
> I know this is a stupid question but just to be sure -- you're putting the bands in the chamber that is closest to the IFP elbow, right?
> 
> If that's the case I almost think you should just send it back, even with no damping at all you shouldn't be able to bottom a 3.5:1 shock on that bike.


All my topped out pressures were fully topped out.

If you look at the first chart I posted, you can see the orange series shows the individually calculated CR. But at each increasing pressure start point, the individual CR is falling.

That is why I think my slope method across multiple data points is more accurate (giving me CR = 2.6)

I believe that it compensates for the fact that we are reading gauge pressure, not absolute pressure. Think about it like this: if you started at 0 psi, you would still have positive pressure at bottom out, but that would give you a divide by 0.

Take that first data point and add atmospheric pressure in:

(107 + 14.7) / (30 + 14.7) = 2.7 CR

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Here is the tabular data, with a new column for "corrected" CR, using atmospheric pressure in the calculation. Now every data point agrees with each other. I'm pretty confident in this approach:


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

That's weirdly low, if that's true. Even a small strip in mine bumped it up to 2.8:1. Mine was calculated with zero psi at full extension because that's how the shockwiz has you do it. Understand that may be more difficult to read on a shock pump guage though.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm not sure you need to make the adjustment you're making though. I get what you're saying but I don't see the need to modify your formula to avoid zero. I'd just put 10psi in it and see what you end up with. Regardless of what 10psi actually represents at your elevation.

The issue with the formula is that adding 14.7 to the denominator works fine, but you should actually be adding CR*14.7 to the numerator. I would just skip that part entirely!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> That's weirdly low, if that's true. Even a small strip in mine bumped it up to 2.8:1. Mine was calculated with zero psi at full extension because that's how the shockwiz has you do it. Understand that may be more difficult to read on a shock pump guage though.





ungod said:


> I'm not sure you need to make the adjustment you're making though. I get what you're saying but I don't see the need to modify your formula to avoid zero. I'd just put 10psi in it and see what you end up with. Regardless of what 10psi actually represents at your elevation.


I don't agree.

Even if shockwiz has you start with the shock empty for their calibration, that doesn't mean they are ignoring barometric pressure. The fact that they are asking you to start at 0 psi gauge (current barometric pressure), actually suggests that they *are* accounting for it in their calculation. If you did the procedure at 30 psi starting, the device has no way of knowing what is can pressure and what is baro pressure.

I have a RS 300 psi digital shock pump, so it's very easy to read. But accuracy will always suffer near the end range, so I purposely avoided very low pressures. There is a point where the gauge will read 0.0 psi, but air will still hiss out.

You are also assuming that Shockwiz CR calculation is highly accurate. We have no information about the accuracy of their calculation. Reading other threads showed me people struggling with unrealistic CR numbers from Shockwiz, and them doing the procedure with above 0 starting pressure, in response, which I'm sure skews things.


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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

CCS86 said:


> Even if shockwiz has you start with the shock empty for their calibration, that doesn't mean they are ignoring barometric pressure. The fact that they are asking you to start at 0 psi gauge (current barometric pressure), actually suggests that they *are* accounting for it in their calculation.
> 
> If you did the procedure at 30 psi starting, the device has no way of knowing what is can pressure and what is baro pressure.


ShockWiz is measuring absolute pressure, which I learned from the following podcast.

https://www.downtimepodcast.com/nigel-wade/


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

upsha said:


> ShockWiz is measuring absolute pressure, which I learned from the following podcast.
> 
> https://www.downtimepodcast.com/nigel-wade/


Thanks for the link, I just listened to it while doing some design work.

Technically, everything is measuring absolute pressure. The decision is where to put the zero point.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Interesting. I hadn't thought about that.
> 
> Will that have a similar effect to an IRT, augmenting the spring rate in the last half of travel? Or will it also change the damping force?


More like traditional volume spacers. But it all depends how much extra force you need. It's no problem at all to build a shock with excess oil (too little IFP gas volume) that won't fully compress with all your body weight on the bench.

Of course go too far and you build too much damper pressure and can blow something!



Symion said:


> Sry that wont work.
> The ifp diameter is so small that the force generated wont save you from bottoming out.
> Its many times lower then the force generated by the air chamber. Volume spacer is your way to go.


IFP diameter doesn't actually matter. It's just piggy in the middle. It's chamber pressure and shaft diameter that matter.


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## mike156 (Jul 10, 2017)

That's not technically correct. There is a physical difference in the actual design of a gauge pressure transducer and an absolute pressure transducer. The same holds true for analog gauges too.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

I was wondering how much the extra volume from leaving the shock pump connected was skewing the result.

Ideal Gas Law to the rescue.

I derived a volume multiplier for having the shock connected; and used that to correct the recorded bottom out pressures, which gave me corrected CR.

The correction took my measured CR from 2.69 to 2.84.

Here's the whole chart:


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

mike156 said:


> That's not technically correct. There is a physical difference in the actual design of a gauge pressure transducer and an absolute pressure transducer. The same holds true for analog gauges too.


Fair enough. There is a physical difference needed in whether your zero point is vacuum or atmospheric.

My point remains though, you have to use absolute pressure to determine CR.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

And, disregarding all that, you still haven't been able to answer how a shock that is completely filled with volume-reducing bands only has a 2.6-2.8 CR. That seems illogical at best. 

I'm running half-filled with thinner bands on a frame with much less progression, and having no bottom out issues at all. Something is wrong.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> And, disregarding all that, you still haven't been able to answer how a shock that is completely filled with volume-reducing bands only has a 2.6-2.8 CR. That seems illogical at best.
> 
> I'm running half-filled with thinner bands on a frame with much less progression, and having no bottom out issues at all. Something is wrong.


And "disregarding all" what? The math and science I applied to the calculation? What is your argument here?

You are throwing out speculative claims.

What is your basis for comparison here?

Do you know the total volume of the Mara inner and outer can? Do you know the volume of the spacer bands you are using? How are you accounting for your shock having 10% more travel than mine when making a comparison?

Just saying that you aren't bottoming your shock doesn't tell us anything. What is your weight, shock pressure, static sag, damper settings? And let's see a video of your biggest hit.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Here is the CR worksheet for the IFP.

Calculated at 1.73 with the stock IFP position.

I worked this up more specifically for the idea of reducing IFP air volume. I wanted to make sure that I don't over-pressure the damper and break something. At stock IFP air volume, and 300 psi resting, it looks like I will hit 537 psi at bottom out. I'm not sure what the safe limit is, but I don't want to find out the hard way!


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I mean, disregarding the fact that knowing your compression ratio solves none of your problems.

I already listed my specs. 185lbs geared up, 210*55 shock on a v1 Ripmo at 150psi. Much less progressive frame with regression at the end, ridden hard daily with regular < 3' drops, never touched the end of the travel. Shock spacer is 1.5*18*133mm. 

Good luck with your issues.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> I mean, disregarding the fact that knowing your compression ratio solves none of your problems.
> 
> I already listed my specs. 185lbs geared up, 210*55 shock on a v1 Ripmo at 150psi. Much less progressive frame with regression at the end, ridden hard daily with regular < 3' drops, never touched the end of the travel. Shock spacer is 1.5*18*133mm.
> 
> Good luck with your issues.


You'll have to remind me where I said that knowing my CR will solve all my problems.

Knowing my CR tells me where I am in the range of acceptable CR's. If I was already on the high side, I would focus more on tuning the negative spring and damping. Being on the lower side would leave room to further reduce main chamber volume.

Okay, you are hitting drops smaller then 3 ft, and I am hitting drops and jumps significantly bigger than that. Seems pretty logical that my shock has a harder time staying off the bottom. What is your claim here?

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Your chamber is *filled* with bands, correct?

And most here would agree that if this was going to fix your problem, you would be adding more bands, right?

So one might assume that you would only be calculating your CR if you planned to add more bands to attain a specific CR. 

Since you can't add more bands, and maxing out your bands didn't solve your problems, I was suggesting that you might be barking up the wrong tree with an entire day of charts. And believe it or not, I was heading somewhere with that.

But now we've hit the point where this is your problem and not mine. It seems like one of those deep compression events might have knocked the shock loose from your bike and lodged it somewhere in your posterior. I'm out of here.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> Your chamber is *filled* with bands, correct?
> 
> And most here would agree that if this was going to fix your problem, you would be adding more bands, right?
> 
> ...


Why are you acting hurt? I don't think anything offensive has been said. If it is just your argument that fell apart (or never materialized), not any kind of personal attack, can I suggest you take your feelings out of it and be prepared to let go of wrong ideas?

I appreciate you wanting to help, but you have tried to put a lot of words in my mouth and based your position on mostly feelings and assumptions.

I have put a total of 0.38 in^3 of spacers into the outer chamber. There are no spacers inside the main air chamber. "How many" spacers you are using is an arbitrary, incomplete piece of information. Actual CR is much more meaningful.

Not sure why you are throwing shade at me for manually calculating my CR, when are have been throwing out your Shockwiz numbers like they are gospel. You really think it took me "all day" to make that simple chart? Hahaha, not so much. It seems like you are trying to claim that it wasn't worth the time, without even providing a single thought to support that.

Now I know my current CR (totally worth the effort), and even with my outer chambers filled, at least according to that Fox chart, there is some headroom to reduce volume in my main chamber.

If you bothered to look at that chart, you might have noticed that, in the DPX2, your 210x55 has a significantly higher CR than my 210x50, for the same spacer config. It's definitely possible that the same is true in the Mara (since they only differ in a bottom out spacer). The amount of difference would make my shock, filled with spacers, the same as yours empty. You have 25mm more rear wheel travel, all of which is providing additional compression damping to deal with impact energy. Then factor in that I am riding more demanding terrain, and it's not hard to see that I will use more travel than you. You seem to feel like if you can't / don't bottom out your shock, there is no possible way that I could / should be bottoming with my shock "full of spacers". There is no logic behind that.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I've used the shockwiz on a number of other shocks (X2, DPX2) and verified the compression ratio that manufacturers advertise with various spacers. I have no reason to suspect that it might be wrong in this case, especially since my 3.0:1 Mara Pro behaves exactly the same as my 3.0:1 X2 with regards to the air spring. 

I don't see what DPX2 chart you're talking about, but it doesn't matter too much. I only now realized you're trying to take an XC bike off > 3' jumps. This is an Enduro-style shock, so most people put it on an Enduro-style frame. So yes, you're going to have a lot of problems, and i'm sure this is only the beginning. Stuff the main chamber and the negative chamber and pray the rest of the bike holds up...


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> I've used the shockwiz on a number of other shocks (X2, DPX2) and verified the compression ratio that manufacturers advertise with various spacers. I have no reason to suspect that it might be wrong in this case, especially since my 3.0:1 Mara Pro behaves exactly the same as my 3.0:1 X2 with regards to the air spring.
> 
> I don't see what DPX2 chart you're talking about, but it doesn't matter too much. I only now realized you're trying to take an XC bike off > 3' jumps. This is an Enduro-style shock, so most people put it on an Enduro-style frame. So yes, you're going to have a lot of problems, and i'm sure this is only the beginning. Stuff the main chamber and the negative chamber and pray the rest of the bike holds up...


The Rift Zone is an XC bike? Yeah, okay. You clearly have it all figured out. I can't wait to see "a lot of problems" with riding my bike hard. I'm a problem solver by trade. Maybe you can write a play about it, with all your imagination.

Enjoy taking your Enduro bike off of tiny drops, confident in the fact that you haven't ever bottomed it out. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

P.S. have you ever bothered to verify where on your shock shaft bottom out actually is? (Hint: it's not the bottom)

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

Hi Guys,

I think i am finally taking the plunge and going to buy a Commencal Meta TR 2021 frame and build it up with a Mezzer, Mara and Dominions.

I think the leverage ratio on the meta will be suitable, the old Meta TR has a leverage ratio from 2.87 to 2.45 so a 14.63 progression which i think they will have tweeked to make slightly more progressive for the 2021 model as they sell it with coils as stock. So i think the Mara should work well with the frame.

I can't find anywhere with a Mara 210x55 in stock in europe, starbike is about the only place that sells it and its out of stock. Does anyone know where i can get one?

Also does the shock come with air volume reducer spacers as standard?

Cheers


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Shlec said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I think i am finally taking the plunge and going to buy a Commencal Meta TR 2021 frame and build it up with a Mezzer, Mara and Dominions.
> 
> ...


You can always buy a 210x50 and pull out the 5mm travel spacer. It does require a partial damper disassembly and bleed though.

No volume spacers are included. I don't think Manitou have even released any yet. With what is in the box, you can just remove an o-ring to open the full outer can, or leave it closed. Some of us have made our own spacers to fill the other part of the outer chamber, since it can't be blocked with an o-ring.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I also use a 210*55. I bought mine from Starbike and it took almost 6 weeks to get here via DHL. Starbike themselves were great (4 days out the door), just seems that DHL is having some major issues with covid and those may have gotten better in the past month.

210*50's are also very difficult to find. The only place stateside that stocks either is Manitou themselves in their web store. Unfortunately it's full MSRP and they don't seem to really offer sales.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Currently out of stock, but I got my 210x50 from Universal Cycles (in the US) for $468 out the door with a 15% coupon, and it arrived in a few days. I would definitely recommend putting in your email there for stock notification.


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

Cheers,

The Meta TR is on pre-order for mid Aug so I have time. I think i will just order the 210x55 from star bike and hope they come in stock by then.

I don't quite understand the settings on the air can. People are refering to mid setting but i cant find any info on this. Is there some sort of spacer which covers a air passage to a further volume? and is this for the positive or negative volume.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Shlec said:


> Cheers,
> 
> The Meta TR is on pre-order for mid Aug so I have time. I think i will just order the 210x55 from star bike and hope they come in stock by then.
> 
> I don't quite understand the settings on the air can. People are refering to mid setting but i cant find any info on this. Is there some sort of spacer which covers a air passage to a further volume? and is this for the positive or negative volume.


Yes, the outer air chamber is split into by an o-ring. If you take the o-ring out you have full volume. Mine came with the o-ring installed so only half the outer chamber is used.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## mike156 (Jul 10, 2017)

CCS86, have you tried less progressive and more air pressure?

This was just a quick comparison of using a higher volume can to a lower volume can and a coil. It's worth noting, a more linear spring rate will actually absorb more energy before bottom out while keeping peak forces lower.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

mike156 said:


> CCS86, have you tried less progressive and more air pressure?
> 
> This was just a quick comparison of using a higher volume can to a lower volume can and a coil. It's worth noting, a more linear spring rate will actually absorb more energy before bottom out while keeping peak forces lower.
> 
> View attachment 1344537


I have not tried that.

Can you tell me more about that chart? It looks like it is based on shock rate, rather than wheel rate. It would be interesting to figure in a progressive leverage curve, as it would really flatten the wheel rate.

Where is this data coming from? Is it formulaic?

I'm trying to understand the mid-stroke dip in the small-can vs the large-can. What is causing that? For the same starting pressure, a smaller can should have higher pressure and force, compared to a larger can, at any displacement.


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## mike156 (Jul 10, 2017)

Indeed, the smaller can would have higher forces if you kept pressure constant. It would also have less sag. That's why I included the higher air pressure part. The larger can has to run more air pressure to achieve the same sag/bottom out force. The benefit however is increased work being done by the more linear spring.

I honestly don't recall where I got these numbers from. I think they came from volumes I pulled out of solid works from a Monarch+. It's some what irrelevant though and just think if it qualitatively.

Adding in frame rate will change forces seen at the wheel, but not energy. Conservation of energy in full effect here.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

mike156 said:


> Indeed, the smaller can would have higher forces if you kept pressure constant. It would also have less sag. That's why I included the higher air pressure part. The larger can has to run more air pressure to achieve the same sag/bottom out force. The benefit however is increased work being done by the more linear spring.
> 
> I honestly don't recall where I got these numbers from. I think they came from volumes I pulled out of solid works from a Monarch+. It's some what irrelevant though and just think if it qualitatively.
> 
> Adding in frame rate will change forces seen at the wheel, but not energy. Conservation of energy in full effect here.


Ah, gotcha. So, that chart is normalized for a specific sag amount. That makes more sense.

For sure, from an energy standpoint, the linkage won't make a change. I was thinking in terms of feel, in different ranges of travel.

I'm watching this video right now, and will have a go at modeling the Mara in his spreadsheet. This would give a *much* more complete picture, if I can get it modeled well, without any mfg provided data.


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## mike156 (Jul 10, 2017)

I'm all about the models... But in reality, unless you are making new parts to replace things, just trying different things should get you where you want to be.

The balance of frame, spring rate curve, and (most importantly) rider all feed into it, for sure.

I'd definitely try more volume (less spacers) and more pressure though. It might not be the best method, but I'd run it without any spacers and crank the pressure up as high as your limits to comfort go. Then figure out if you need volume spacers or not based on how the balance feels and how much travel you are using.

If your fork is stuffed full of tokens though, it might start feeling weird as the stiffer mid-stroke you get from more pressure will force your weight forward if the fork isn't as stiff at that point in the travel.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

mike156 said:


> I'm all about the models... But in reality, unless you are making new parts to replace things, just trying different things should get you where you want to be.
> 
> The balance of frame, spring rate curve, and (most importantly) rider all feed into it, for sure.
> 
> ...


I agree that models aren't the end of the discussion, but they can definitely offer guidance.

I got that excel sheet dialed in for the Mara, and really have a hard time seeing how higher volume will help me, which falls in line with my intuition. Here is a chart showing my current setup, with CR=2.8 (in blue); compared to increased can volume, CR=2.4 (in green). No other changes.









My goal is to increase sag, and reduce the tendency to bottom out. For the prior, I need to reduce shock force near the sag point. To reduce bottom out, I need to store more energy across the full stroke. Near the sag point, the difference in shock force is so small, that there just isn't room to increase main pressure. To increase shock energy storage would take a huge bump in main pressure, which would reduce the sag a lot.

After pulling the shock apart yesterday, I added some grease to the top of the air piston. After calculating again, this brought my CR up from 2.84 to 2.97. It's a subtle change, but it was enough to allow slightly lower main pressure, with a slightly higher bottom out force.

I think that the ideal change to meet my goal, would be a larger negative spring volume, at the same initial pressure. This would drag the negative spring effect further into the travel, softening the shock near the sag point. That could let me run higher main pressure for more energy storage, without reducing my sag.

Here's a simulation of basically doubling the negative chamber size, at the same negative pressure (green). No other changes:









But, if I am thinking about how the Mara negative spring works, that would be tricky. Since it is using captured air, you are working with a fixed starting volume. Anything you do to increase the chamber size (like removing some of the negative spacers), is just going to drop the negative pressure.

I made a very rough CAD model to see what the negative chamber looks like at full extension. My 210x50 shock has two 7mm thick plastic spacers, and two 3mm thick foam washers. This chamber appears to be packed full and then some:









I see 4mm of interference, which means the 6mm of foam is getting packed into 2mm of space:


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Have you considered that the Mara Pro isn't the shock for your bike? They have the regular Mara now, which appears to be designed for xc bikes like yours. The original, non-king-can McLeod is also an excellent shock (and cheap) that's designed for xc bikes. It handles heat very well too.

Apparently the McLeod's moving forward will have the Mara updates. 

I'm sure you will eventually get the Mara Pro working on your bike, but what will you have gained over a McLeod or Mara?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> Have you considered that the Mara Pro isn't the shock for your bike? They have the regular Mara now, which appears to be designed for xc bikes like yours. The original, non-king-can McLeod is also an excellent shock (and cheap) that's designed for xc bikes. It handles heat very well too.
> 
> Apparently the McLeod's moving forward will have the Mara updates.
> 
> I'm sure you will eventually get the Mara Pro working on your bike, but what will you have gained over a McLeod or Mara?


Your latest suggestion is that I should sell the Mara Pro, which I already own, for a loss, and buy a lesser shock, because the Mara Pro is "wrong" for my bike?

You seem to be clinging to these bike type labels as if they are so distinct and different. When in reality, it's all a gradient. The Rift Zone is a modern, slack, 120mm trail bike, which I am building through components and geometry towards a more enduro setup. Nothing about it is optimized for XC.

What do I gain by using the Mara, over a simpler shock? It should be pretty obvious by now that I appreciate the extra tunability, and when I have a lift-served bike park an hour from my house with 90-100* high temps, the thermal stability is a big plus.


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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

CCS86 said:


> My goal is to increase sag, and reduce the tendency to bottom out. For the prior, I need to reduce shock force near the sag point. To reduce bottom out, I need to store more energy across the full stroke. Near the sag point, the difference in shock force is so small, that there just isn't room to increase main pressure. To increase shock energy storage would take a huge bump in main pressure, which would reduce the sag a lot.


Are you using more sag to lower the BB + slacken the bike? If so, offset bushing could achieve the same goal with higher pressure, which changes the frequency and stores more energy. Offset bushing + overstroke with the same spring rate could be even better. It may have the same static BB height but use more stroke to store more energy instead.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Sounds like the single can would be a good thing to try.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

upsha said:


> Are you using more sag to lower the BB + slacken the bike? If so, offset bushing could achieve the same goal with higher pressure, which changes the frequency and stores more energy. Offset bushing + overstroke with the same spring rate could be even better. It may have the same static BB height but use more stroke to store more energy instead.


No, if anything I would like to raise the rear a touch, and pull the 5mm reducer out of my 210x50. At a stock eye to eye, there's not quite enough over travel.

I wanted more sag simply because it had gotten down to like 15% and was loosing the plush feel.

Any links to offset bushings?

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like the single can would be a good thing to try.


They do make a single can for the Mara?

I'm trying to picture how it would be able to reduce volume compared to my "stuffed" outer can, when the ID and length are fixed.

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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

CCS86 said:


> No, if anything I would like to raise the rear a touch, and pull the 5mm reducer out of my 210x50. At a stock eye to eye, there's not quite enough over travel.
> 
> I wanted more sag simply because it had gotten down to like 15% and was loosing the plush feel.
> 
> ...


https://www.offsetbushings.com/pages/how-they-work

https://burgtec.co.uk

Two providers for your reference. You can use it to raise BB but will also steepen the head tube angle. Some people use angle headset to offset that negative.

https://www.workscomponents.co.uk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> They do make a single can for the Mara?
> 
> I'm trying to picture how it would be able to reduce volume compared to my "stuffed" outer can, when the ID and length are fixed.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


The Mara Inline has a standard can. I don't have part numbers for spares yet.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> The Mara Inline has a standard can. I don't have part numbers for spares yet.


Assuming that you can fully pack the outer chamber with spacers and grease, would that standard can reduce volume at all?

If I am thinking about it right, it still has to have a 40mm ID and the same overall length.

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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

upsha said:


> https://www.offsetbushings.com/pages/how-they-work
> 
> https://burgtec.co.uk
> 
> ...


Awesome, thanks for the links upsha.

I'm already +20mm on the front fork, plus a 2* Works angle set, so I am plenty slack!

Shortening the shock with offset hardware puts the assembly in a stable equilibrium. But, lengthening it would require you to lock rotation of the offset components. I emailed those guys to get their thoughts.

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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Got tired of struggling with the HSC adjuster. So, I whipped up a printed part that makes it super easy.










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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Assuming that you can fully pack the outer chamber with spacers and grease, would that standard can reduce volume at all?
> 
> If I am thinking about it right, it still has to have a 40mm ID and the same overall length.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


It'll be very close to a King-Can with the outer layer packed full. But it's difficult to get the outer layer completely packed full.

Have you posted the leverage curve of your bike?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> It'll be very close to a King-Can with the outer layer packed full. But it's difficult to get the outer layer completely packed full.
> 
> Have you posted the leverage curve of your bike?


Where is the standard can able to reduce volume compared to a king can?

I will say, after eeking my CR to about 3:1, setting the IFP depth to 35mm, and leaving a bit of fluid in there too; I have been able to drop my main pressure back to 137 psi, return compression damping to near default, and I'm staying just off the bottom now.

Here is my leverage curve again.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Where is the standard can able to reduce volume compared to a king can?
> 
> Here is my leverage curve again.


On the McLeod I thought the single can had less taper into the head. But I could just be making that up. I haven't had the Mara versions with internal threads side by side to compare can shape.

Your bike has roughly the same progression as mine. I'm running full volume and higher pressure. I've not measured sag. But I ride a bit differently.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

https://www.mtb-news.de/news/manitou-mara-pro-test/


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I've been wrong before, but I'd guess that the standard Mara has a smaller main chamber to match the non-King Air Can, and the standard air can probably changes the size of the negative chamber as well. It's designed for shorter travel bikes. 

I really doubt you'd sell a Mara Pro at much of a loss. They are extremely hard to find right now for anything less than MSRP. The regular Mara is $150 cheaper anyways, and the Mcleod is probably still only $200 from Germany...

I don't know why anyone would want to shuttle or do lift service on an XC bike, but after years of owning several Mcleods I can tell you that they handle it just fine. Just about anyone on the various Manitou threads can vouch for that.


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

ungod said:


> I've been wrong before, but I'd guess that the standard Mara has a smaller main chamber to match the non-King Air Can, and the standard air can probably changes the size of the negative chamber as well. It's designed for shorter travel bikes.
> 
> I really doubt you'd sell a Mara Pro at much of a loss. They are extremely hard to find right now for anything less than MSRP. The regular Mara is $150 cheaper anyways, and the Mcleod is probably still only $200 from Germany...
> 
> I don't know why anyone would want to shuttle or do lift service on an XC bike, but after years of owning several Mcleods I can tell you that they handle it just fine. Just about anyone on the various Manitou threads can vouch for that.


yes McLeod still for incredible 186 EUR from bike-discount.de


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> It'll be very close to a King-Can with the outer layer packed full. But it's difficult to get the outer layer completely packed full.


I can see how it is tough to fill the undercut region I highlighted in green. This time around I filled that area with some grease before reinstalling the sleeve.












Dougal said:


> On the McLeod I thought the single can had less taper into the head. But I could just be making that up. I haven't had the Mara versions with internal threads side by side to compare can shape.


Given the internal geometry of this can type, I still can't picture a smaller volume (ignoring the outer chambers); since you need to preserve the 40mm bore and the length of the bore.



Dougal said:


> Your bike has roughly the same progression as mine. I'm running full volume and higher pressure. I've not measured sag. But I ride a bit differently.


I'm curious to hear what your sag is. I know it's not the be-all-end-all, and getting an accurate and consistent measurement is very tough. My guess would be that you have very little.

I have thought more about it and decided that because my frame is more progressive, I can justify running less shock sag. Doing the sag calculation with desired rear wheel travel, and working through linkage ratios back to shock travel gives you a lower number.


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## mike156 (Jul 10, 2017)

Do you really have reasonable expectations here? It sounds like a 3' drop is barely noticeable to the way you ride? Can you realistically expect 120mm of travel to stand up to it without running a very high spring rate?

When you consider energy absorbed is related to the square of the travel, going from 120mm to 160mm is a 75% increase in energy absorption with the same spring rate. 160mm bike you can work with trading bottom out to plushness. You don't really have that luxury with so little travel.

100%, with that leverage ratio, I'd be increasing volume and cranking up the pressure. Looks like a great curve for a high volume air shock. You need to get the average spring rate higher though.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

mike156 said:


> Do you really have reasonable expectations here? It sounds like a 3' drop is barely noticeable to the way you ride? Can you realistically expect 120mm of travel to stand up to it without running a very high spring rate?
> 
> When you consider energy absorbed is related to the square of the travel, going from 120mm to 160mm is a 75% increase in energy absorption with the same spring rate. 160mm bike you can work with trading bottom out to plushness. You don't really have that luxury with so little travel.
> 
> 100%, with that leverage ratio, I'd be increasing volume and cranking up the pressure. Looks like a great curve for a high volume air shock. You need to get the average spring rate higher though.


I don't think my goal is unreasonable. Yes, I have to work within the bounds of physics. No, a 120mm bike is never going to soak up big hits like a 160mm bike.

My issue with bottom-out protection has been exaggerated a bit. I'm not bottoming out everywhere and slamming into the bump stop on larger jumps. I'm just trying to eek back a few mm of shock stroke at the bottom.

Your example of energy absorption is mathematically correct, but it isn't realistic. For a given weight rider, you don't increase travel by 40mm and leave spring rate / pressure the same. Once you adjust for the correct spring curve, the energy absorption increase wouldn't be quite so big. But, I get your point.

Most of my trails are very much trail bike trails. I just happen to have a couple areas an hour away, where I can blast sustained descents and bigger hits. Having one bike to straddle those things might be a compromise, but it's not this ridiculous thing that ungod wants to make it out to be.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> I don't know why anyone would want to shuttle or do lift service on an XC bike.


Some "XC" action just for you. Maybe you should give Marin a call and tell them they are using their bike wrong.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

CCS86 said:


> Some "XC" action just for you. Maybe you should give Marin a call and tell them they are using their bike wrong.


Why not just ride a road bike on your trails? This guy does it: 




I'm not knocking the Marin, it actually looks like a great geometry and pretty much like what I'd want for my stable. But, horses for courses...

The guy in the video you posted might as well be riding a hardtail, he's not working that suspension at all. Then again that's not a particularly demanding trail, and he landed every jump perfectly. As for me, I don't always pick the right line, and sometimes I forget to completely send every jump. That's why I ride longer travel bikes.

Anyways, I don't really care how you want to ride your bike. I was just really confused at first because you were talking about DH and > 3' drops, and then I found out you were doing all this on a 120mm bike. Or maybe you're talking about the type of riding in the video and calling that a > 3' drop? I'm still confused, but either way, hope you get your suspension where you want it.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> Why not just ride a road bike on your trails? This guy does it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it is pretty clear that you are still confused. Why you keep offering suggestions from a base of confusion is beyond me.

I posted that video because you keep making this claim that the Rift Zone is an XC bike. No, I'm not confused about what a 3 ft drop is. Thanks for asking.

Let's just clear this up and stop wasting real estate on this thread. All this banter you are injecting isn't helping anybody. I don't care what type of bike you think the Rift Zone is, or whether you think I am riding it too hard, or whether you think I should sell my Mara Pro. I needed to find a way to get a very small amount more bottom out resistance, without increasing main pressure, and I succeeded through productive discussion with other members, and some testing. All your opinions, have just displaced relevant information.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

It's not an opinion that putting a Mara or a Mcleod on your bike will fix the issues you're having. It would reduce the size of the main chamber, air chamber, and negative spring, which is exactly what you're already trying to do. You don't want to hear that? You think putting an enduro shock on an XC bike will make it "more enduro"? That's fine, but that's your problem and not mine. 

If you only wanted Dougal's advice then you should have just PM'ed him directly and then sent him some cash for his tuning advice. I'm not going to apologize for trying to help you and subsequently misunderstanding your corner-case issue. Most people who come on here are using the right tool for the job and just need some help tweaking the last ounce out of it, not trying to re-engineer parts for their bikes.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> It's not an opinion that putting a Mara or a Mcleod on your bike will fix the issues you're having. It would reduce the size of the main chamber, air chamber, and negative spring, which is exactly what you're already trying to do.


Is that so? What is the volume of a Mara pro, with the outer chambers packed? What is the volume of a Mara inline? If you don't know these things, you are just throwing out guesses as if they are fact.



ungod said:


> If you only wanted Dougal's advice then you should have just PM'ed him directly and then sent him some cash for his tuning advice. I'm not going to apologize for trying to help you and subsequently misunderstanding your corner-case issue. Most people who come on here are using the right tool for the job and just need some help tweaking the last ounce out of it, not trying to re-engineer parts for their bikes.


 Making my own volume spacers, and putting some grease on the air piston is "re-engineering parts"? Cool story. Remind me about your "helpful advice", I must have missed it in between all your unsolicited opinions.



ungod said:


> You think putting an enduro shock on an XC bike will make it "more enduro"? That's fine, but that's your problem and not mine.


What makes an enduro bike an enduro bike? Be specific. If you can't answer that question definitively, then you are in no position to keep spouting your vague, misguided opinions.


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

Anyone who is on MARA or MCLeod and can compare with Cane Creek Double Barrel Air IL shock? I mean real life experience. 
Thank you


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

What is the fastest path to remove the travel limiting spacer?

Can [18] unthread from [21], maybe with some custom soft jaws?


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Any of you 3d Printer geniuses out there want to take on a project? How about a remote lock switch that goes over the top of the existing platform lever. Or....its a 1 screw removal....you could bolt to it where the existing is. Of all the shocks on the market, this looks to be possibly the simplest to add one too.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> What is the fastest path to remove the travel limiting spacer?
> 
> Can [18] unthread from [21], maybe with some custom soft jaws?
> 
> View attachment 1345769


The fastest way is cutting it off. The best and easiest way is to undo the seal-head, take off the main piston and slide everything off the damper shaft.

You've gotta rebleed it no matter what you take apart. So may as well do it the nice way.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

wildh said:


> Any of you 3d Printer geniuses out there want to take on a project? How about a remote lock switch that goes over the top of the existing platform lever. Or....its a 1 screw removal....you could bolt to it where the existing is. Of all the shocks on the market, this looks to be possibly the simplest to add one too.


That would be great.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

I made some custom 7075 offset bushings today. They are a different design, since the typical ones lack a way to visually clock and maintain orientation during assembly.

I marked them with paint for the time being, for a quick visual check after some riding.

Installing both raised my BB height about 5mm, to 336mm. This puts me at a good top out height to pull the 5mm travel limiter, running the shock at 210x55, and rear travel close to 130mm.










Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> The fastest way is cutting it off. The best and easiest way is to undo the seal-head, take off the main piston and slide everything off the damper shaft.
> 
> You've gotta rebleed it no matter what you take apart. So may as well do it the nice way.


Is removing the seal-head and main piston pretty straightforward? Any gotchas, or special tools?

If the replacement part for the 5mm spacer was easy to find and $10, I'd probably just cut it off. But I know it has an internal groove with an o-ring or seal, so it could be more expensive.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Manitou is having a July 4th 20% off sale if anyone is looking. Not many Mara sizes in stock. Same with the Mezzer.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Lol. Was going to just post the same thing. Just ordered a Mara Pro.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

I bobbled the last few components of the stack and want to verify the order before I close it up.

* 12 x 0.2
* Machined part faces up
* 19 x 0.15
* 11 x 0.2
* 11 x 1.2 Washer
* Nut


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Hopefully that stack is correct, 'cause she is all back together.

Knowing the CR was going to rise (going from 210x50 to 210x55), I didn't put any extra grease on top of the air piston, but left the outer chamber filled with spacers and grease. So, with the same air can configuration:

210x50 CR = 2.84:1

210x55 CR = 3.42:1

This almost exactly mirrors Fox's CR chart, for 210x50 vs 210x55, with the same volume spacers. Around a 21% jump in CR.

Offset bushings are keeping the seat-stay brace out of the seat tube at bottom-out. I'll be testing soon.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Sorry if this has been answered. What size are the eyelets, on the Mara Pro? 200*56 just came back in stock so I just clicked buy. Need to get hardware, and couldn't find the eyelet size on Hayes' site. 

Will normal Rockshox hardware work? I need 22.2 x m8.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Kamkam said:


> Sorry if this has been answered. What size are the eyelets, on the Mara Pro? 200*56 just came back in stock so I just clicked buy. Need to get hardware, and couldn't find the eyelet size on Hayes' site.
> 
> Will normal Rockshox hardware work? I need 22.2 x m8.


They are 0.500" ID

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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Awesome, thanks. Means I should be able to carry over my enduro needle bearing kit and use some extra rockshox hardware I already have.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

FYI the Manitou Summer Sale of 20% off doesn't seem to apply to Mara Inline (or R7), but makes the Mara Pro nearly the same price as its reservoir lacking little brother.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

CCS86 said:


> I bobbled the last few components of the stack and want to verify the order before I close it up.
> 
> * 12 x 0.2
> * Machined part faces up
> ...


Can anyone confirm this stack?

It seems to be operating correctly.

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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Probably dumb question, but what are the signs of needing to do an aircan reset? Never had a shock without the self equalizing port. My Monarch needed to be reset once when it go stuck down in it's travel. 

Guessing if it gets stuck down in travel or feels off around sag point, or wild changes in temperature or elevation?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

The first sign is usually decreased compliance.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Kamkam said:


> Probably dumb question, but what are the signs of needing to do an aircan reset? Never had a shock without the self equalizing port. My Monarch needed to be reset once when it go stuck down in it's travel.
> 
> Guessing if it gets stuck down in travel or feels off around sag point, or wild changes in temperature or elevation?


It would actually be the opposite. It won't get stuck down, it will be topped out aggressively. The thing you would notice first, is a reduction in sag. Another quick check is to air down the shock and look for it to shorten. With a fresh can reset, you could measure this shortening and write it down to check later.

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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Is anyone else running their Mara near maximum rebound?

I'm only about 71kg, running at 140 psi, and it has been 90-100*F lately, so fluid is certainly on the thin side.

I'm finding myself only 1 - 2 clicks out on the rebound adjust.

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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Maximum rebound speed, or maximum rebound damping? 

I run mine very close to maximum rebound damping (e.g. full '+', then backed out 1-2 clicks).

At this setting I find that the LSR is still a little fast, but the HSR is about right. The shockwiz wanted me to slow down the rebound speed further than the knob would even allow, but I blame that partially on the low speed and do generally have a preference for slightly faster rebound speeds.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Yeah...I'm up there as well on the rebound. maybe 3 clicks off from full. I'm fine with that personally as long as it feels right to me on my bike. 

How much difference to you all notice on the party vs work mode? I notice some change, but its not much/subtle.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> Maximum rebound speed, or maximum rebound damping?
> 
> I run mine very close to maximum rebound damping (e.g. full '+', then backed out 1-2 clicks).
> 
> At this setting I find that the LSR is still a little fast, but the HSR is about right. The shockwiz wanted me to slow down the rebound speed further than the knob would even allow, but I blame that partially on the low speed and do generally have a preference for slightly faster rebound speeds.


Maximum damping. It sounds like you are in the same boat.

Are you considering changing the rebound stack to tune the HS/LS balance?

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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Man you guys are making me nervous. At 6'2'' 200-205lbs in riding gear, I'm hoping it has enough rebound damping. My shock arrives today, should have first shakedown/tuning ride tomorrow and bike park testing this weekend.

How is the HSR compared to LSR in terms of damping. I have a Pole Evolink, and generally the suggestion is alot of HSR and very little LSR.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

wildh said:


> Yeah...I'm up there as well on the rebound. maybe 3 clicks off from full. I'm fine with that personally as long as it feels right to me on my bike.
> 
> How much difference to you all notice on the party vs work mode? I notice some change, but its not much/subtle.


My work mode is pretty dramatic for me, enough that I don't really use it. Probably depends a little on travel and kinematics though, my bike (V1 Ripmo) is only 145mm rear travel and the DW link pedals extraordinarily well.

Then again I'm the guy who always forgets to switch back to party mode for the downhill, so if there's a real reason I don't switch that's probably it


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

CCS86 said:


> Maximum damping. It sounds like you are in the same boat.
> 
> Are you considering changing the rebound stack to tune the HS/LS balance?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


It's pretty rare that I feel the LSR spike and the adjustment knob being maxed only bugs me if I think about it. I'm happy as is, but I do think the shim stack is probably a little light on the rebound.

If someone does the math and testing on the rebound stack for me I'd probably switch it in the off season.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

It's pretty cool that they tuned the rebound stack to run pretty close to closed, means it's relying on the shim stack a good bit more than other shocks that are baiscly orfice only with how stiff rebound stacks are.

If it feels good running it close to closed I would not worry about.

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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

ungod said:


> My work mode is pretty dramatic for me, enough that I don't really use it. Probably depends a little on travel and kinematics though, my bike (V1 Ripmo) is only 145mm rear travel and the DW link pedals extraordinarily well.
> 
> Then again I'm the guy who always forgets to switch back to party mode for the downhill, so if there's a real reason I don't switch that's probably it


This is why i want a remote! It's not much weight and is such an easier way to view/know it's open or closed.

Funny yours is dramatic...mine is very light.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Whoa, just read through this thread and I'm not exactly sure what happened, seems like things got way off topic, maybe dominated even...

Anyways, just thought I'd post up a quick follow up after having ridden the Mara Pro on my Mega Trail for a season AND having just added a Mara Pro to my Pistola.

The Mara Pro continues to perform very well, the two step (Work/Play) mode is perfect for my needs, tuned to work in conjunction with the middle damper setting on my Trust forks (Shout and Message).

Two weeks ago I added a Mara Pro to my Trail Pistola (210 x 55, 130mm) replacing a DPX2, I used the same settings as I had on the larger Mara Pro (230 x 65, 155mm), adjusted air pressure, and went riding. Worked great day one, no adjustments after multiple rides.

Love this shock!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I now have Mara Pro fitment drawings. If anyone needs to know dimensions for fitment I should be able to help.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey @Dougal. I'm keen to grab one of these for my v3 spitfire. Will you ship one to Australia? I sent you an email. 

Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Interesting observation, and dumb question. Just got my mara pro 200x56 and it had 3 volume spacers installed. 

Now for dumb question. Does it matter how much you compress shock when installing air can? Barely compressed shock when installing mine, and I set air pressure and I'm at low 20s for sag when going by balancing front and rear. Just curious if I messed up neg volume on install or if thats likely normal. Ran 30% on monarch to feel balanced front and rear.

I removed volume spacers and took out middle oring to get full can volume, if that helps.


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## redux (May 25, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> Whoa, just read through this thread and I'm not exactly sure what happened, seems like things got way off topic, maybe dominated even...
> 
> Anyways, just thought I'd post up a quick follow up after having ridden the Mara Pro on my Mega Trail for a season AND having just added a Mara Pro to my Pistola.
> 
> ...


Where did you find the Mara pro in the 210 x 55 size? I haven't seen that size in stock (in the US) after 2 months of looking.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

thedrizzle said:


> Hey @Dougal. I'm keen to grab one of these for my v3 spitfire. Will you ship one to Australia? I sent you an email.
> 
> Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk


Email sent (I think that was you). Had a lot of phone calls from Australia this week!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Kamkam said:


> Interesting observation, and dumb question. Just got my mara pro 200x56 and it had 3 volume spacers installed.
> 
> Now for dumb question. Does it matter how much you compress shock when installing air can? Barely compressed shock when installing mine, and I set air pressure and I'm at low 20s for sag when going by balancing front and rear. Just curious if I messed up neg volume on install or if thats likely normal. Ran 30% on monarch to feel balanced front and rear.
> 
> I removed volume spacers and took out middle oring to get full can volume, if that helps.


I can't really think of how you would mess up the air can installation. As you slide the air can on, you start building negative pressure as soon as the air piston engages the can. That is acting to compress the shock and the only thing fighting against that is the IFP pressure. Generally, the shock will compress a little bit during the process, and you will have to fight a fair amount of negative pressure to get the can threaded on. If you reset the o-ring at that point and then air up the shock, you should see it extend maybe 10 mm or so.

I think it's relatively normal to have less sag on a shock that doesn't self equalize, especially for heavier riders.

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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Glad to know I didn't do anything wrong. First time using a non equalizing neg spring. Was just curious if I did it wrong since reduction in sag is a characteristic of needing to reset air can. 

Is this generally true that non equalizing shocks run less sag with heavier riders? Curious since I know spring rate is more important than sag, but some linkage designs are far more sensitive to sag to get right pedaling characteristics. Also concerned about conserving geometry if my rear is sitting at 20% sag vs 30%. I know I need to just ride this thing instead of pontificate on mtbr.

I chose to go full volume because I used my shockwiz to measure CR of monarch coming off which was 2.3-2.4, and full volume of Mara was CR of 2.4. Since Poles generally play well with coils, figured most linear setup would be ideal. BTW I don't rely on shockwiz, but it usually gets me 90% there and bracket the last 10% performance.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Kamkam said:


> Glad to know I didn't do anything wrong. First time using a non equalizing neg spring. Was just curious if I did it wrong since reduction in sag is a characteristic of needing to reset air can.
> 
> Is this generally true that non equalizing shocks run less sag with heavier riders? Curious since I know spring rate is more important than sag, but some linkage designs are far more sensitive to sag to get right pedaling characteristics. Also concerned about conserving geometry if my rear is sitting at 20% sag vs 30%. I know I need to just ride this thing instead of pontificate on mtbr.
> 
> I chose to go full volume because I used my shockwiz to measure CR of monarch coming off which was 2.3-2.4, and full volume of Mara was CR of 2.4. Since Poles generally play well with coils, figured most linear setup would be ideal. BTW I don't rely on shockwiz, but it usually gets me 90% there and bracket the last 10% performance.


I don't have a vast amount of hands on experience with MTB air shocks, like some of the other members here. Just a pretty good grasp on the mechanics.

A self-equalizing negative chamber, by nature, will "adapt" to the rider weight, because it equalizes with the main chamber set pressure. You could consider that a benefit. But, along with that, because the equalization port is static relative to stroke, it's pretty hard to adjust sag meaningfully. At stroke=x(mm) the pressures above and below the piston are equal, but since the negative chamber has less piston area, the negative spring is still weaker; and the shock can extend beyond this position. This tends to force a sag distance, regardless of air pressure. It also creates a weird discontinuity in the spring rate curve, near the top of stroke.

The non-equalizing negative chamber in the Mara, works only by capturing air during the can installation. So, regardless of whether you are running 120psi or 170psi in the main chamber, the negative pressure at top out is the same. This means that changing main pressure has a very direct impact on top out force and sag. But, since spring rate is the primary goal of main pressure, this causes sag to take a back seat. For an ideal average spring rate, the only way you can change the sag amount is to change progressivity with volume spacers. So, if you want more sag, you need to reduce main chamber volume, to increase progressivity and drop main pressure. It's possible that you land on an overly progressive rate curve before hitting a target sag though. Tuning the negative chamber would be the more direct way to dial in sag for an ideal rate curve (mid-stroke and beyond).

I really wish Manitou would figure out a way to adapt the negative chamber equalization from the forks, into the shock. It works so well IMO. Obviously, packaging this in a shock is more complex.

Part of me wants to modify my air can to add a negative chamber air port, so I can tune the negative pressure directly, and volume (via spacers).

We can talk about cause and effect on all this stuff, but like you said: really, you have to get out and ride it to see if it feels better or worse.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Kind of curious about sticking the aircan in freezer, before installation. In theory it should have denser air, and when it reaches normal temp, should have a higher pressure in negative chamber. Might play with that at a later date. Ugh can't wait for this evening for first shake down ride. Hate adult responsibilities.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Kamkam said:


> Kind of curious about sticking the aircan in freezer, before installation. In theory it should have denser air, and when it reaches normal temp, should have a higher pressure in negative chamber. Might play with that at a later date. Ugh can't wait for this evening for first shake down ride. Hate adult responsibilities.


Interesting thought!

You might also double check the IFP pressure before riding. Set point is 300 psi with shock at full extension. My Rockshox digital pump reads 225 psi after reconnecting a 300 psi IFP chamber.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Hopefully I'm not spamming this thread with useless stuff. But since I'm working remotely, I threw aircan in freezer for 30 min and temped it out at 10 degrees Fahrenheit, installed quickly with gloves to prevent my hands from warming it up, and got maybe 2% more sag after pressurizing it to the same pressure and letting it reach room temp.

TLDR: temp manipulation of aircan is unlikely to be a valid tuning option.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Kamkam said:


> Hopefully I'm not spamming this thread with useless stuff. But since I'm working remotely, I threw aircan in freezer for 30 min and temped it out at 10 degrees Fahrenheit, installed quickly with gloves to prevent my hands from warming it up, and got maybe 2% more sag after pressurizing it to the same pressure and letting it reach room temp.
> 
> TLDR: temp manipulation of aircan is unlikely to be a valid tuning option.


So who is going to 3D print a 2 piece sleeve to extend the air can to catch more air that can then be removed once the piston gets into the actual air can? I can't remember without having one in front of me, does the eyelet end engage the can seals before the air piston enters the can? Is it different for various sizes?


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Kamkam said:


> Is this generally true that non equalizing shocks run less sag with heavier riders? Curious since I know spring rate is more important than sag, but some linkage designs are far more sensitive to sag to get right pedaling characteristics. Also concerned about conserving geometry if my rear is sitting at 20% sag vs 30%. I know I need to just ride this thing instead of pontificate on mtbr.


 Typically on newer bikes with say a factory stock Fox DPS for example, heavy guys have a hell of a time getting enough air into the shock to not have an excessive amount of sag. The fix is typically to put the biggest available spacer in the shock and run a bunch of air. Manitou shocks are much easier to set up with way less air than they needed with the DPS, it can be a 100psi or greater difference.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Velodonata said:


> Typically on newer bikes with say a factory stock Fox DPS for example, heavy guys have a hell of a time getting enough air into the shock to not have an excessive amount of sag. The fix is typically to put the biggest available spacer in the shock and run a bunch of air. Manitou shocks are much easier to set up with way less air than they needed with the DPS, it can be a 100psi or greater difference.


You are right. Just help my 6'7'' 250lbs buddy set up his Fox DPS on his santacruz. Had it right at 300psi limit, no spacers and gets good sag and good travel usage. Trail setting works as open and firm works as trail for his giant ass, lol.

My monarch ran 245 psi, and currently toying with Mara Pro at 170ish for 25 percent sag. I'm 6'2'' 200-205ish lbs. Had to put oring back in to split can to run lower pressure to get more sag. Full can was getting 18% at 190ish psi.

Just interesting, because normally I would try to avoid any volume spacers, and never used them before to set ride height. May have to add in some of the supplied volume spacers to get the back end down alittle bit.

Would be killer if somehow Manitou could make a can with another valve for negative chamber and could tune negative independently.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Velodonata said:


> So who is going to 3D print a 2 piece sleeve to extend the air can to catch more air that can then be removed once the piston gets into the actual air can? I can't remember without having one in front of me, does the eyelet end engage the can seals before the air piston enters the can? Is it different for various sizes?


Now we're talking!

I'll look at this next time I have the can off.

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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Kamkam said:


> Hopefully I'm not spamming this thread with useless stuff.


Anything that involves making a Mara Pro work well on your bike seems on topic to me.

Even my tangent of trying to fine tune the balance between sag and bottom out prevention had a lot of solid and useful information in it.... Now if we could just prune out all ungod's posts stating his misguided opinion over and over, we could get relevant density back up.

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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Kamkam said:


> Hopefully I'm not spamming this thread with useless stuff. But since I'm working remotely, I threw aircan in freezer for 30 min and temped it out at 10 degrees Fahrenheit, installed quickly with gloves to prevent my hands from warming it up, and got maybe 2% more sag after pressurizing it to the same pressure and letting it reach room temp.
> 
> TLDR: temp manipulation of aircan is unlikely to be a valid tuning option.


This is a common trick on the Mcleod, which is a pretty similar shock. One thing you could do differently is to install the air can while the shock is _inside_ the freezer, attempting to get the cooler, denser air from the freezer inside the air can. Think of a chest freezer...

I doubt it will make much difference since the frozen aircan probably has about the same effect. It didn't do much on the Mcleods either, and with the introduction of the King Can it wasn't really necessary. I don't even think they sell the Mara Pro without a King Can.



CCS86 said:


> Anything that involves making a Mara Pro work well on your bike seems on topic to me.
> 
> Even my tangent of trying to fine tune the balance between sag and bottom out prevention had a lot of solid and useful information in it.... Now if we could just prune out all ungod's posts stating his misguided opinion over and over, we could get relevant density back up.


Hopefully you've now realized the irony of making a shitpost to criticize someone else's posts.

If not, I could poke some more fun at you to provoke another page of angry responses. Have you heard the joke about the guy who runs a 37mm stanchion fork at 140mm? He even posted some videos of himself riding a pretty basic trail.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

ungod said:


> Have you heard the joke about the guy who runs a 37mm stanchion fork at 140mm? He even posted some videos of himself riding a pretty basic trail.


Hey don't keep us in suspense. I like a good joke and I run a 37mm stanchion fork at 140mm and often ride some pretty basic trails. Let's hear it!


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Velodonata said:


> Hey don't keep us in suspense. I like a good joke and I run a 37mm stanchion fork at 140mm and often ride some pretty basic trails. Let's hear it!


That was the joke _and_ the punchline. More importantly, you're not a super sensitive little guy who will still be threadcrapping on page 5.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> Hopefully you've now realized the irony of making a shitpost to criticize someone else's posts.
> 
> If not, I could poke some more fun at you to provoke another page of angry responses. Have you heard the joke about the guy who runs a 37mm stanchion fork at 140mm? He even posted some videos of himself riding a pretty basic trail.


A quick scan back at my contributions to the thread:


Detailed measurements of an actual shock to help people figure out fitment, well before that data was available
Detailed photos of some of the internal components
CAD renderings of the air can and negative spacer configuration
Showing my own designs for 3D printed tools (air can removal, IFP depth setter, IFP cap removal, HSC adjuster, outer can volume spacers) and offering to make them available to forum members
Compression ratio calculations for the Mara in two different configurations, as well as the method to do this yourself with only a shock pump
Detailed descriptions of tuning goals for the shock, what worked, what did not.

Please remind us about all the high quality content and discussion you have contributed. Because all I remember was you telling me that I have the "wrong bike", the "wrong shock", I should sell it all, etc. And here you are trying shame me for running a Mezzer within the spec'd travel range, throwing shade at a trail I rode, and continuing to waste space in this thread.

Cheers.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Had my first shakedown ride today. Felt pretty good but with the can split with o-ring, the rear felt a little too progressive. Open can gave me too little sag, so I split can to get in the 25%ish zone. Staying a little high in travel, but when bouncing, rear might be a little too firm. Going to drop some pressure and will retest Thursday. Ran HSC fully open and LSC few clicks from full open, with rebound fully closed. Funny thing is I set 2 2nd places on Strava and I wasn't pushing it, due to paying attention to how the bike is reacting to changes. So the Mara definitely has potential. Should have it dialed this weekend at bike park. Something I am not used to is having to play with progression to get proper sag. This is something I have never done before. 

My short shake down tuning session is making me re-evaluate my old monarch. I thought it performed admirably despite all the hate they get. Now I'm thinking it had very little mid stroke support. Really didn't have complaints. Just been drooling over Mara Pro since it was released and finally became available in my size and the 20% off helped open the wallet. 

But so far that is 3 users of this thread that are either maxed on rebound or almost. I'm hoping one of the Manitou gurus publish how to change the rebound shim stack.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Velodonata said:


> So who is going to 3D print a 2 piece sleeve to extend the air can to catch more air that can then be removed once the piston gets into the actual air can? I can't remember without having one in front of me, does the eyelet end engage the can seals before the air piston enters the can? Is it different for various sizes?


I couldn't resist checking this out and trying the frozen can trick.

Unfortunately, with my 210x55, both the can and air piston seal engage at essentially the same time.

On the plus side, doing the frozen can trick got me about 6% extra sag. That is definitely a win!










Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

redux said:


> Where did you find the Mara pro in the 210 x 55 size? I haven't seen that size in stock (in the US) after 2 months of looking.


I had my eye on one, but it was outside my price range, so I decided to ride my DPX2 until they were back in stock ... then I got a message from another MTBR member who had one he wasn't using ?

It's good to be loved ?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I have two Mara Pro shocks, both work as designed, no issues with rebound.



Kamkam said:


> Had my first shakedown ride today. Felt pretty good but with the can split with o-ring, the rear felt a little too progressive. Open can gave me too little sag, so I split can to get in the 25%ish zone. Staying a little high in travel, but when bouncing, rear might be a little too firm. Going to drop some pressure and will retest Thursday. Ran HSC fully open and LSC few clicks from full open, with rebound fully closed. Funny thing is I set 2 2nd places on Strava and I wasn't pushing it, due to paying attention to how the bike is reacting to changes. So the Mara definitely has potential. Should have it dialed this weekend at bike park. Something I am not used to is having to play with progression to get proper sag. This is something I have never done before.
> 
> My short shake down tuning session is making me re-evaluate my old monarch. I thought it performed admirably despite all the hate they get. Now I'm thinking it had very little mid stroke support. Really didn't have complaints. Just been drooling over Mara Pro since it was released and finally became available in my size and the 20% off helped open the wallet.
> 
> But so far that is 3 users of this thread that are either maxed on rebound or almost. I'm hoping one of the Manitou gurus publish how to change the rebound shim stack.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Since I started this thread, I’m gonna call it like I see it:

Posting personal attacks is bullshite!

If you don’t like what someone posts, then keep your opinion to yourself.

Now back to our our regularly scheduled program.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> I have two Mara Pro shocks, both work as designed, no issues with rebound.


I wouldn't say that I have an "issue" with the rebound, just that I'm at/very close to max adjustment and I can't go any further with my tuning without making shim changes. What are you at? Ideally I'd want to be somewhere in the bell curve on all my adjustments.

One thing I really like about Manitou is that they release a single good design that gets incremental updates over the years (like to the shim stack), whereas the big players just drop a totally new design with the same old problems every few years. I fully expect I'll be riding this shock in another few years, although maybe with some minor internal changes.


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## trailhawk (Jul 29, 2020)

*Dimensions for 210x55 eyelet version request*



Dougal said:


> I now have Mara Pro fitment drawings. If anyone needs to know dimensions for fitment I should be able to help.


Dougal - I'd take dimensions on a 210x55 eyelet for my Trek Fuel EX8 to replace standard Reactiv Fox shock. Frame is a XL and fits the DPX2 no problems so I don't expect any fitment issue but having dimensions will confirm that.

Thanks!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I can't remember how many clicks from closed, but it's somewhere in the middle.

I have noticed that increasing rebound affects the ride quality more than I owuld have expected, as though it has some impact on compression...

Anyway, I love the shock and I have not had any problems using the shock off the shelf.



ungod said:


> I wouldn't say that I have an "issue" with the rebound, just that I'm at/very close to max adjustment and I can't go any further with my tuning without making shim changes. What are you at? Ideally I'd want to be somewhere in the bell curve on all my adjustments.
> 
> One thing I really like about Manitou is that they release a single good design that gets incremental updates over the years (like to the shim stack), whereas the big players just drop a totally new design with the same old problems every few years. I fully expect I'll be riding this shock in another few years, although maybe with some minor internal changes.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> I have noticed that increasing rebound affects the ride quality more than I owuld have expected, as though it has some impact on compression...


I noticed that too, and that was one reason I didn't pursue the level of rebound that the shockwiz was suggesting. Interesting.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

ungod said:


> I noticed that too, and that was one reason I didn't pursue the level of rebound that the shockwiz was suggesting. Interesting.


Are you saying that when you added rebound damping, shockwiz's suggestions were to reduce compression after adding rebound?

From my experience shockwiz is on par with rebound and airspring recommendations to my tuning in the neutral active profile, but compression damping suggestions are generally off. Usually says I have too much HSC when fully open and wants alot of LSC. But LSC suggestions are based off pedaling events. Not feel from how it stands up in corners, or preloading into jumps etc.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

ungod said:


> I noticed that too, and that was one reason I didn't pursue the level of rebound that the shockwiz was suggesting. Interesting.


Throw your Shockwiz away, they are garbage, I got one for my birthday, and never use it because it is not helpful.

Honestly, if you can't feel what needs to change by simply riding the bike, that's something to work on with a tuner not an electronic toy.

I'm not trying to harsh on you or anyone else, but tuning suspension requires experience, it is something that can be learned and can be managed by feel, but it's not something you can learn by reading or comparing suspension curves.

What I find helpful is to start with one end of your bike, doesn't matter which end, get that end feeling as good as you can, THEN try to match the other end. Let's call this the "Dougal method". Think suspension balance front to rear.

Most suspension can be made usable off the shelf as long as you start with a shock or fork that has a good damper system. So for example, I have no luck with a stock Fit4, but the Grip damper works well.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

You know what they say about opinions! 

I bought this shockwiz for my bike chapter, and I've used/loaned it out to help set up several dozens of bikes. I think it's a fantastic tool, so long as you understand that it's not the final word. I've gotten it down to the point where I have it on-and-off the bike in under an hour, with an 80-90% tune (in my mind, not the tuning score) on front and back of someone's bike. It's usually for someone who doesn't really "care" about their suspension, but just needs it to work well without knowing what the knobs do. It's great for that. 

It was also great to slap it on my Ripmo when it arrived with an X2. New frame, new shock, and I was ready to hit the trails in no time.

Back to the Mara Pro, I actually agree with the rebound assessment. There is still some rebound spikiness, especially at low speeds. The butt-o-meter isn't 100% on the HSR either, but it's at the point now where if I decrease the damping then it's definitely too fast, and if I increase the damping then something gets funky on the compression side of things. 

I'm really not complaining, these are first-world problems. It's by far the best shock I've ridden.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

I swear this is the last off topic tangent from me. I got my shockwiz back in 2018 with my first full suspension bike. It was instrumental allowing me to make changes and see how it feels and having an easy way to get a workable baseline. Now I use it because in the first 20min I can have a shock or fork really close without having to be super attentive of how its handling. Then I properly bracket and balance front and rear. Super helpful for setting up friends' bikes who are terrible at relaying feedback on how the bike is reacting. 

They have their place as long as you realize their limitations and know how to work around it. Also pretty fun to play with.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I can set up a new shock or fork in under an hour, no shockwiz needed, but I have a Shockwiz that I'd gladly pass on if anyone is so inclined 

Received in July 2019, used a few times, in great shape 

PM for deets


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> I can set up a new shock or fork in under an hour, no shockwiz needed, but I have a Shockwiz that I'd gladly pass on if anyone is so inclined
> 
> Received in July 2019, used a few times, in great shape
> 
> PM for deets


Yeah, but could you set up your friends bike when you weigh 185 and they weigh 145?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ungod said:


> Yeah, but could you set up your friends bike when you weigh 185 and they weigh 145?


Easy with my one page suspension setup guide. Which I've somehow lost from the website. Oops.

I'll link it up as soon as we find it again.

*edit*
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/catalog/category/view/id/1201


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Easy with my one page suspension setup guide. Which I've somehow lost from the website. Oops.
> 
> I'll link it up as soon as we find it again.


I like your setup guide and it's very similar to what I've always done, but I've found that many people who set up their suspension on feel do it wrong, especially with rebound speed. It feels fun to ride a bike that pogos a bit, but it's not as fast and it kills your technical climbs, which is basically all we have in my area. Almost every friends bike I've hopped on had the rebound speed set a few clicks too fast.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ungod said:


> I like your setup guide and it's very similar to what I've always done, but I've found that many people who set up their suspension on feel do it wrong, especially with rebound speed. It feels fun to ride a bike that pogos a bit, but it's not as fast and it kills your technical climbs, which is basically all we have in my area. Almost every friends bike I've hopped on had the rebound speed set a few clicks too fast.


Rebound speed is one of the most personal aspects. I run really fast rebound and it works well where and how I ride.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Dougal,

How does rebound speed change between Work and Play mode? Or does it?

Is it weird that the bike rides "softer" and deeper into the travel when I speed up rebound?



Dougal said:


> Rebound speed is one of the most personal aspects. I run really fast rebound and it works well where and how I ride.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Dougal,
> 
> How does rebound speed change between Work and Play mode? Or does it?
> 
> Is it weird that the bike rides "softer" and deeper into the travel when I speed up rebound?


The work/party switch is compression only.

from the Shockcraft mobile typewriter


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Thought I would update my feedback on my Mara. Final settings 30%ish sag, 155psi with aircan in factory setting (split can) no volume spacers, rebound 4 clicks from closed, lsc 3 clicks from open, hsc 1 click from open. I have a long bike and figured out setting air pressure by frequency is best after a short spin so my body pushes through pedals in a more realistic riding position, otherwise I end up pushing more rear biased making air spring too firm when riding. Also noticed in mid 90s summer aircan pressure goes up about 10psi from indoor temp to the time I reach the trails. That 10 psi is pretty noticeable on my Mara, firmer, sits higher in travel. 

First ride was on local trail and then dialed my Mara Pro at the bike park. Honestly felt only marginal gains at bike park vs monarch. Noticed slightly more pop from rear and just started to clear some slower table tops that I would case, and notices less rear tire lockup while dumping speed. Otherwise wasn't a dramatic difference. Not sure if the more pop is because with split can, it is more progressive than full can monarch? 

Then I hit my local trails again, and this is where I was most impressed. Somehow the rear is just super compliant and tracks amazingly over roots and rocks, and has enough pop to purposefully get airborne. Rear end is super active, and notice less rear hang up on square edge hits and bike is noticeably calmer. 

Should add I'm not easily impressed by newness of a product. I am more of the "this better prove your expense" type guy. Mara at the park somehow marginal gains at higher speeds, but at more sane trail speeds, huge improvement.


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

Couldn't help myself not to share with you. Finally received my Mara in 200x56 and switch with my dpx2 2020 away and ....... I am truly blown away . So for these wishing to compare dpx2 and Mara here, I just say go on and throw the dead piece of wood away :madman:.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

torcha said:


> Couldn't help myself not to share with you. Finally received my Mara in 200x56 and switch with my dpx2 2020 away and ....... I am truly blown away . So for these wishing to compare dpx2 and Mara here, I just say go on and throw the dead piece of wood away :madman:.


Yup, pretty much the truth.

I weigh 195# nakid, running ~120psi, R-3, LSC-18, HSC-3, 210 x 55, Shred Dogg 130mm travel


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So Dougal, how does the Work/Party switch change compression?

Does it create an alternative damper oil pathway or does it increase flow on top of the base setting?

Or something else?



Dougal said:


> The work/party switch is compression only.
> 
> from the Shockcraft mobile typewriter


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> So Dougal, how does the Work/Party switch change compression?
> 
> Does it create an alternative damper oil pathway or does it increase flow on top of the base setting?
> 
> Or something else?


It creates a flow path away from the base valve, forcing it to flow though the work valve instead. Work valve has no bypass, just a very stiff shim stack that must open to allow movement. This shim stack is tuneable to allow the user to adjust the stiffness of the work mode to their personal preference.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

mullen119 said:


> It creates a flow path away from the base valve, forcing it to flow though the work valve instead. Work valve has no bypass, just a very stiff shim stack that must open to allow movement. This shim stack is tuneable to allow the user to adjust the stiffness of the work mode to their personal preference.


Okay, so my HSC/LSC settings are only for party mode and will not change the Work mode?

How do I access the Work mode shim stack?

Is the Work mode shim stack different between shocks, ie 210 x 55 vs 230 x 65?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> Okay, so my HSC/LSC settings are only for party mode and will not change the Work mode?
> 
> How do I access the Work mode shim stack?
> 
> Is the Work mode shim stack different between shocks, ie 210 x 55 vs 230 x 65?


Correct, the adjusters only function in party mode.

Work mode valve is located at the bottom of the reservoir.

I believe the stock shim stacks are the same between sizes, but there may be a running change between production runs. The valve it self had a change, not sure about the shim stacks.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I've been tinkering with my Mara Pro settings for about a month now and I think I've got a setting I'm happy with. I'm 180lbs out of the shower with a Ripmo v1 (145mm rear travel). Note that this is not a very progressive rear suspension, for example it can't use coil shocks without HBO.

I started with:
155psi, almost full open HSC, 2 clicks from full-closed rebound. I ran the half-can and filled the half air can about 2/3 of the way* to get a 3.0:1CR. This put me right around 20% sag and rode pretty well, but I was still getting pretty close to bottom without doing any big jumps. (I like to keep about 5-7% in reserve for bigger drops and biffs)

Next up, I tried 160psi, same knob settings. Too much top-out.

Now I'm at 150psi. I'm about halfway into the HSC, I have a good amount of LSC dialed in, and I'm halfway in on the rebound. The catch is: I had to stuff my air can with more tokens and right now it's about 80-85% filled*.

Going back to the earlier discussion on rebound settings: I think I had my rebound (and HSC) way off because I was running too much air pressure in an attempt to keep the shock from bottoming. Now that I've stuffed the air can a little more, i'm not bottoming at all, and my knob settings are more inline with what I'd like to see. 

I suspect that running more tokens is not the real answer though. What I probably need is another backer shim or something to firm up the shock on real high compression events. Maybe i'll mess with it over the winter, but it's also not something I am really equipped to objectively test and report on.

* My air can tokens are 1.5mm thick plastic cut to fit.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

So are you fighting the exact same thing that I was trying improve, and in spite of constantly badgering me that I was riding the wrong bike and should sell my Mara, you followed the exact path that I reported as working (upping the CR to reduce air pressure and damping).

Glad I could help.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So I got this theory that most shocks/forks will work on most bikes for most riders in the stock setup within the range of settings provided.

I thinks we are our worst enemies when it comes to suspension set up because we go to radical ends to make the suspension perform, when in reality we should shoot for as good as it gets.

For example, putting aftermarket suspension on an XC bike will not make that bike an enduro bike.

My advice is to avoid going to extremes on your settings, start at the midpoint, then work on one thing at a time.

I'm running dead center on Rebound, LSC, and HSC, no volume spacers, no need to pu the shock in the freezer. I "may" try to tweak the Work mode shim stack as it's a little more restrictive than I need, but I may just leave it alone.

Oddly enough, the Mara Pro on my enduro bike works great in Work Mode without any tweaks and Party mode is nearly the same set up as my shorter travel bike.

So yeah, start again, put the shock back to stock, set R, LSC, HSC at their mid point, lever in Party mode, then focus on finding an air pressure that works. Ride it a while, don't fiddle, learn how the bike feels and responds in all conditions.

&#8230; and please, don't post videos of you riding off curbs and over a 4 x 4, that's silliness, no one cares about that stuff 



ungod said:


> I've been tinkering with my Mara Pro settings for about a month now and I think I've got a setting I'm happy with. I'm 180lbs out of the shower with a Ripmo v1 (145mm rear travel). Note that this is not a very progressive rear suspension, for example it can't use coil shocks without HBO.
> 
> I started with:
> 155psi, almost full open HSC, 2 clicks from full-closed rebound. I ran the half-can and filled the half air can about 2/3 of the way* to get a 3.0:1CR. This put me right around 20% sag and rode pretty well, but I was still getting pretty close to bottom without doing any big jumps. (I like to keep about 5-7% in reserve for bigger drops and biffs)
> ...


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

ungod said:


> Next up, I tried 160psi, same knob settings. Too much top-out.


What do you mean by too much top-out? Sitting too high in travel as in low dynamic sag?

If so, then running more spacers seems like the trick to get it to sit lower in its travel as been discussed previously in this thread.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> ...when in reality we should shoot for as good as it gets.


Your personal lack of need, ability, or drive to improve your suspension performance, is just that; your personal choice. Stop projecting that onto everybody else. Nobody else is obligated to stop trying because you chose that path.



Nurse Ben said:


> For example, putting aftermarket suspension on an XC bike will not make that bike an enduro bike.


I'll give you the same question I posed to ungod: What makes an "enduro" bike an enduro bike? Same for "XC" and "trail" bikes. Be specific. If you don't have an answer for this, you are in no position to be making statements as if they are fact.




Nurse Ben said:


> &#8230; and please, don't post videos of you riding off curbs and over a 4 x 4, that's silliness, no one cares about that stuff


Again, speak for yourself. Looking at suspension response over a control obstacle, and how it changes with adjuster settings, is absolutely relevant and helps to inform decisions. For example, I showed that the Mara Pro actually doesn't have a ton of range in the HSC adjuster. That knowledge can help people explore the full range of that adjuster without worrying about going too far.

In fact, Dougal (the guy who instead of reaching out directly to, you keep making forum posts and praying for him to answer you) has expressed appreciation for that type of content.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Another way to think about set up:

Do you need more pressure to prevent bottom out or do you need to slow down the response?

More pressure requires more control.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

ungod said:


> I've been tinkering with my Mara Pro settings for about a month now and I think I've got a setting I'm happy with. I'm 180lbs out of the shower with a Ripmo v1 (145mm rear travel). Note that this is not a very progressive rear suspension, for example it can't use coil shocks without HBO.
> ...
> The catch is: I had to stuff my air can with more tokens and right now it's about 80-85% filled*.
> ...
> * My air can tokens are 1.5mm thick plastic cut to fit.


Just to be clear, do you mean you stuffed the outer chamber of the can, that you are running at the half setting already?

If so, wouldn't you just be getting close to the standard size can on the McLeod / Mara IL? Instead of utilizing the extra volume of what is essentially the King Can option for the other shocks?

On my Mara IL, on a Ripley V4, I have to run a little extra grease in the standard can to keep the bottom out where I want it with my prefered air pressure. Not that is directly relevant to your setup, but sometimes a smaller can just works better.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nurse Ben said:


> So I got this theory that most shocks/forks will work on most bikes for most riders in the stock setup within the range of settings provided.
> 
> I thinks we are our worst enemies when it comes to suspension set up because we go to radical ends to make the suspension perform, when in reality we should shoot for as good as it gets.
> 
> For example, putting aftermarket suspension on an XC bike will not make that bike an enduro bike.


Not sure what you've experienced, but mine is different. Putting aftermarket suspension on my bike made it punch way above it's class. Ran stock on one of my bikes, racing DH, then aftermarket and picked up a bunch of speed, able to just sail thorugh stuff that made me lose control before.

On the smaller scale, on my XC bike, again the amount of speed I'm picking up with the custom suspension is not insignificant. The amount of stability added and control is still large. It doesn't make the rest of my components stronger, but it absolutely lets me ride faster and more in control.

I find it especially nice on the AM/enduro rig, because I'll go out and do rides that other people are doing on DH bikes, but I don't find myself "under-gunned" due to the damping and control. This is generally when traveling to different states for riding when it's just not practical to find a DH bike.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Kamkam said:


> What do you mean by too much top-out? Sitting too high in travel as in low dynamic sag?
> 
> If so, then running more spacers seems like the trick to get it to sit lower in its travel as been discussed previously in this thread.


Maybe the wrong term... I mean that the shock becomes fully extended while my wheels are still on the ground.



Nurse Ben said:


> Another way to think about set up:
> 
> Do you need more pressure to prevent bottom out or do you need to slow down the response?
> 
> More pressure requires more control.


I get what you're saying above and I agree. I've just come to a point on the shock where all indicators are pointing to a correct initial air pressure, but I'm getting too close to bottoming and I don't think it's smart to keep trying to bump the CR. I run the HSC as firm as I can without harshness. When your CR is 3.0:1 and your HSC is cranked, where do you go next?

Kinda funny, I was playing with it the other day and did a 2' HTF. The shock used the amount of travel I was expecting (e.g., not too much). After looking at it for a minute I realized the only change I had made was that the Work lever was on...oops.



Velodonata said:


> Just to be clear, do you mean you stuffed the outer chamber of the can, that you are running at the half setting already?
> 
> If so, wouldn't you just be getting close to the standard size can on the McLeod / Mara IL? Instead of utilizing the extra volume of what is essentially the King Can option for the other shocks?
> 
> On my Mara IL, on a Ripley V4, I have to run a little extra grease in the standard can to keep the bottom out where I want it with my prefered air pressure. Not that is directly relevant to your setup, but sometimes a smaller can just works better.


Correct regarding your first paragraph, and I also agree that I should probably be running the standard aircan. I don't believe it's an option to buy on the Mara Pro, and the IL wasn't released when I bought this shock. I could probably buy one from Hayes if I asked nicely enough, though.

OTOH I've measured the CR as 3.0:1 with fewer spacers than I am currently using (using a shockwiz), and at some point I have to believe that the answer isn't just a higher CR. The standard aircan probably has a smaller negative chamber which would also help. But I do wonder if I'd be better using damping and not the air spring to slow down the end of the compression. With my previous Fox X2, a 3.0:1CR was plenty to leave a good margin of error at the end of the travel. But right now, I have my HSC cranked as high as I can go without harshness in the rest of the travel.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Jayem said:


> Not sure what you've experienced, but mine is different. Putting aftermarket suspension on my bike made it punch way above it's class. Ran stock on one of my bikes, racing DH, then aftermarket and picked up a bunch of speed, able to just sail thorugh stuff that made me lose control before.


I believe Nurse Ben was trying to make a jab at CCS86 because apparently it's not acceptable to try to make your bike punch above it's weight class or optimize you bike. Interestingly, I thought that's literally why there is such a demand for aftermarket parts and a message board like this one.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

ungod said:


> Maybe the wrong term... I mean that the shock becomes fully extended while my wheels are still on the ground.
> 
> OTOH I've measured the CR as 3.0:1 with fewer spacers than I am currently using (using a shockwiz), and at some point I have to believe that the answer isn't just a higher CR. The standard aircan probably has a smaller negative chamber which would also help. But I do wonder if I'd be better using damping and not the air spring to slow down the end of the compression. With my previous Fox X2, a 3.0:1CR was plenty to leave a good margin of error at the end of the travel. But right now, I have my HSC cranked as high as I can go without harshness in the rest of the travel.


So the shock is fully extended with wheels on ground? Sounds like not enough sag as in running too high in the stroke. You can't compare the cr and travel usage to your fox x2 because the negative chamber volumes are different. There is no equalization port on the mara pro. You have to make positive chamber smaller and use less pressure to get it to sit deeper into the travel.

I am not sure what your perceived issue is. Seemed like you had a great setup at 150psi with all your spacers? Did you just feel like you were doing something wrong because you had to use spacers? The high CR making you uneasy?

I could be wrong but a smaller negative volume would be opposite of what you want as you would need to reduce the positive volume more so.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yes, you can bulk up on tires, change up your cockpit, increase braking, overfork, change out the shock, add an angleset, but you can't change the nature of a bike; that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

And yes, of course, that's partly why the aftermarket industry exists, but there's a chicken and egg thing going on; try not to let the availability of aftermarket parts guide your choices.

Most of the time you are better off getting a bike to suit your needs than trying to make your existing bike into something it's not.

...and yes, I was poking fun at another MTBR member who is an inexperienced rider, but posts like he's far more experienced, and did this very thing.



Jayem said:


> Not sure what you've experienced, but mine is different. Putting aftermarket suspension on my bike made it punch way above it's class. Ran stock on one of my bikes, racing DH, then aftermarket and picked up a bunch of speed, able to just sail thorugh stuff that made me lose control before.
> 
> On the smaller scale, on my XC bike, again the amount of speed I'm picking up with the custom suspension is not insignificant. The amount of stability added and control is still large. It doesn't make the rest of my components stronger, but it absolutely lets me ride faster and more in control.
> 
> I find it especially nice on the AM/enduro rig, because I'll go out and do rides that other people are doing on DH bikes, but I don't find myself "under-gunned" due to the damping and control. This is generally when traveling to different states for riding when it's just not practical to find a DH bike.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Kamkam said:


> So the shock is fully extended with wheels on ground? Sounds like not enough sag as in running too high in the stroke. You can't compare the cr and travel usage to your fox x2 because the negative chamber volumes are different. There is no equalization port on the mara pro. You have to make positive chamber smaller and use less pressure to get it to sit deeper into the travel.
> 
> I am not sure what your perceived issue is. Seemed like you had a great setup at 150psi with all your spacers? Did you just feel like you were doing something wrong because you had to use spacers? The high CR making you uneasy?
> 
> I could be wrong but a smaller negative volume would be opposite of what you want as you would need to reduce the positive volume more so.


Good point on the equalization ports.

By fully extended I mean that I'm sitting at only about 15% sag, so if I unweight the bike enough I end up being launched off the saddle (e.g. going through a section of "whoops"). I'm probably doing a bad job of describing the issue there, but it's the typical issue that occurs when you don't have enough sag.

I'm not unhappy at all with the performance at 150psi, but I suspect I'm at like 3.2 or 3.3:1 CR now. I'll grab the shockwiz at some point to verify. Fox had some issues with aircans at those pressures, and besides that it just seems like I've hit one of the "extremes" like Nurse Ben is talking about and I need to go another direction.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yes, you can bulk up on tires, change up your cockpit, increase braking, overfork, change out the shock, add an angleset, but you can't change the nature of a bike; that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.


...and just like ungod, you dodge the simple question I posed.

The "nature" of a bike, is just the sum of it's geometry and components. There is no magic, or genetics. Your whole assumption here is flat out wrong.



Nurse Ben said:


> ...and yes, I was poking fun at another MTBR member who is an inexperienced rider, but posts like he's far more experienced, and did this very thing.


Remind me how you know my level of riding experience.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> ...and yes, I was poking fun at another MTBR member who is an inexperienced rider, but posts like he's far more experienced, and did this very thing.


Maybe we should leave personal attacks out, especially when you don't know the other individual. I mean I'm sure some of us could quote a certain viagra thread...


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

ungod said:


> Good point on the equalization ports.
> 
> By fully extended I mean that I'm sitting at only about 15% sag, so if I unweight the bike enough I end up being launched off the saddle (e.g. going through a section of "whoops"). I'm probably doing a bad job of describing the issue there, but it's the typical issue that occurs when you don't have enough sag.
> 
> I'm not unhappy at all with the performance at 150psi, but I suspect I'm at like 3.2 or 3.3:1 CR now. I'll grab the shockwiz at some point to verify. Fox had some issues with aircans at those pressures, and besides that it just seems like I've hit one of the "extremes" like Nurse Ben is talking about and I need to go another direction.


I get what you are saying now. If you are only sitting at about 15%, than less pressure and maybe more volume reduction. What pressures was fox having issues at? Seriously doubt 150ish psi is going to have any issues, a lot of shocks run fine in mid 200s. I know it seems weird but really only workaround to the non adjustable neg volume.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Kamkam said:


> I get what you are saying now. If you are only sitting at about 15%, than less pressure and maybe more volume reduction. What pressures was fox having issues at? Seriously doubt 150ish psi is going to have any issues, a lot of shocks run fine in mid 200s. I know it seems weird but really only workaround to the non adjustable neg volume.


Now that I think about it, they were blowing up at around 3.0:1 but the initial pressures were more like 220psi, not the 150psi that I'm running on this shock.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nurse Ben said:


> Most of the time you are better off getting a bike to suit your needs than trying to make your existing bike into something it's not.


For sure that's a good point and no arguments. It's just that mtb suspension tends to be kind of a ****-show IME and sometimes the manufacturers appear to randomly "hit it" like with RC2 and the first Grip, and then they screw things up again or walk back significantly. Also the chaos with the charger damper tunes. I was just watching Vorsprung today show the difference in damping provided by the 2021 Grip2 vs. the 2020 and it's magnitudes different, meaning either something was significantly wrong before, or it's significantly wrong now, as the magnitudes of difference between means it's not an evolutionary change. It's the absolute chaos that we see in this area of mtb and some bikes+shocks seem to do pretty well together and others are just total poop and even if you have one of these fairly well optimized (say the bike and it's LR/curve/AS profile), the other variable as the OEM shock can totally screw it and vice-versa.

Maybe it's starting to get a little less as we are getting into 2021 and Fox appears to have "fixed" the DHX2 and several other company's products seem to have improved, but that's one partial season stacked up against decades and the track record ain't good IME.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Dude, seriously, what is it with people and sex?

But to the point, that guy, he needs to listen more than he posts, at least until is mountain biking knowledge catches up with his engineering knowledge.

What drives me nuts is how folks become internet experts without actual experience.

as to Viagra .. it is akin to ebikes and biking 



Kamkam said:


> Maybe we should leave personal attacks out, especially when you don't know the other individual. I mean I'm sure some of us could quote a certain viagra thread...


----------



## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> Dude, seriously, what is it with people and sex?
> 
> But to the point, that guy, he needs to listen more than he posts, at least until is mountain biking knowledge catches up with his engineering knowledge.
> 
> ...


Dude, seriously, what is with people's attachment to the second most basic human instinct after "not dying"??? Hahaha

It's funny how you are so averse to "internet experts", yet here you are, an internet expert about my level experience.

You also seem to be conflating "experience" with "expertise". Doing something for a long time doesn't actually mean that you are any good at it.

As someone who doesn't seem to be a hard charger, wants to put his clickers to the recommended settings and "just ride"; I really don't grasp why you see yourself as an authority on the subject of people riding hard and wanting to fine tune their suspension. Just stay in your lane and stop projecting.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> Dude, seriously, what is it with people and sex?
> 
> But to the point, that guy, he needs to listen more than he posts, at least until is mountain biking knowledge catches up with his engineering knowledge.
> 
> ...


I just put him on my ignore list, can't even see his posts. Like I'm going to miss out on some valuable information or something :lol:


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> I just put him on my ignore list, can't even see his posts. Like I'm going to miss out on some valuable information or something :lol:




Says the guy who was asking me for 3D printed parts a few weeks ago, and followed the exact advice I posted in this thread to improve the balance of sag vs bottom-out.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I did the same last week.

Give him time, maybe he'll settle down.



ungod said:


> I just put him on my ignore list, can't even see his posts. Like I'm going to miss out on some valuable information or something :lol:


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I think some of the suspension designs work really well, like the Fox Grip, butthen I see folks complaining about it and wanting to change to a FIT4 which I think is a terrible damper.

I could never get good damping with the RC2, it just didn't ride well.

Maybe I'm weird, but I didn't like the MRP Coil due to the harsh ride, then I added a Vorsprung Smashpot to a Bomber Z1 and it was like magic.

Of course now I ride Trust forks and everyone thinks I'm crazy, but damn if it isn't the best riding fork ever.

I finally got a decent ride out of my DPX2, it wasn't as good as the Mara Pro, but it was close.

My current Mara Pro set up:

Revved Shred Dogg, Trail Mode, Sz 3, Short position, Tall lower cup, Trust Message
Marra Pro 210 x 55
HSC 3 clicks from closed
LSC 12 clicks from closed
R 5 clicks from closed
120psi
Body weight: 195# nakid



Jayem said:


> For sure that's a good point and no arguments. It's just that mtb suspension tends to be kind of a ****-show IME and sometimes the manufacturers appear to randomly "hit it" like with RC2 and the first Grip, and then they screw things up again or walk back significantly. Also the chaos with the charger damper tunes. I was just watching Vorsprung today show the difference in damping provided by the 2021 Grip2 vs. the 2020 and it's magnitudes different, meaning either something was significantly wrong before, or it's significantly wrong now, as the magnitudes of difference between means it's not an evolutionary change. It's the absolute chaos that we see in this area of mtb and some bikes+shocks seem to do pretty well together and others are just total poop and even if you have one of these fairly well optimized (say the bike and it's LR/curve/AS profile), the other variable as the OEM shock can totally screw it and vice-versa.
> 
> Maybe it's starting to get a little less as we are getting into 2021 and Fox appears to have "fixed" the DHX2 and several other company's products seem to have improved, but that's one partial season stacked up against decades and the track record ain't good IME.


----------



## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> I did the same last week.
> 
> Give him time, maybe he'll settle down.


Yeah, you said that... then immediately showed that this was a lie, and wrote me a long PM. Is there anything more sad than lying about putting someone on your ignore list?

I just hope I don't "settle down" to your level for a longggggg time:



Nurse Ben said:


> So honestly, you old guys actually give a **** about having sex?
> 
> I have a hard time believing any women feel the same, most of the time older women are happy when their old man can no longer perform.
> 
> I'm happily married for twenty years and I won't let my penis mess that up


----------



## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> I did the same last week.
> 
> Give him time, maybe he'll settle down.


Tried to warn about personal attacks. You called him back in. He has offered far more technical info in this thread than many others, yet personal attacks about his bike and riding skills. I don't know you personally, but your projecting in another thread can open you up to a fair amount of ridicule.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I know what you're saying, but his technical experience as an engineer has limited bearing on mountain biking since his mountain biking experience is limited.

I didn't make a personal attack, but I did was call him out on his limited mountain biking experience; he did post a video of his riding. I'm sure he's an engineer, if that's what he says he is, but his biking is intermediate at best.

He's also kind of a prick toward others and he's new to the forum, so yeah, I won't lose sleep over calling him out.

I don't appreciate cubicle riders who post info based on what they read and hear versus actual mountain bike experience, it's disingenuous.



Kamkam said:


> Tried to warn about personal attacks. You called him back in. He has offered far more technical info in this thread than many others, yet personal attacks about his bike and riding skills. I don't know you personally, but your projecting in another thread can open you up to a fair amount of ridicule.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

To be fair, even pros can give bad advice, not to mention being highly biased. 

I don't think riding skill should be a prerequisite for suspension tuning advice, either. If that was the case, I think you'd find many pro mechanics out of jobs. I'm not sure how many races Craig Seekins has won, or Steve from Vorsprung, or Darrin from PUSH. It doesn't matter, people like their stuff. 

Ironic too is that as riders become racers and get sponsorship they no longer run all the "nerdy" aftermarket stuff. At some point your skills get to a point where any inadequacies in your equipment are a non-issue - mostly because all your competition is dealing with those small imperfections as well. 

There are two paths: 1 Path) do you want to be a better rider? Does the equipment prevent that? 2nd Path) Or do you want to be a better tuner? If so, does lack of riding skill prevent that? I'd argue that these are separate from one another. You can be a great rider with crappy equipment and you can be a great tuner without riding skills.

Perhaps some of the content within this thread would be better suited to a "Maximizing and Custom Tuning the Manitou Mara Pro" thread. CCS86 deserves credit for all the work he's done drawing and tinkering for this single shock. He's not offering a tuning service or selling us custom parts. I love seeing just how far down the rabbit hole you can go with fiddling - it gives a good indication of the product's current and future performance limits.

At some point, however, you run into a "free knowledge barrier". I've hit it before. You can ask knowledgeable folks, but they'll ask "why?" You can poke and prod professionals, but they know what you're asking and eventually they get worried you'll be a competitor. Eventually they say "well, you can pay me and I'll answer that." 

So far at least, CCS86 has the ability to just dig into stuff and come out on the other side to show us what he's found. Is that a problem?


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

PHeller said:


> So far at least, CCS86 has the ability to just dig into stuff and come out on the other side to show us what he's found. Is that a problem?


I'm not going to go re-read this whole thread, but from what I can recall all of the useful information was provided by Dougal and a few others in response to questions. All I really learned from CC86 is that the air volume on a 210x50 is a lot lower than the air volume on a 210x55. The rest of his posts are either him shitting all over people trying to help him, or just general thread shitting because he didn't like the help he got.

The last 2 pages could have been a PM to Dougal, or maybe he could have just paid someone to get his shock tuned for his XC geometry like everyone else does. Instead the solution was to cram has aircan with spacers and run too much pressure. Thanks for the "info".

Anyways, a-holes on the internet, what else is new. Let's just stay on subject. The Mara Pro is an excellent shock and I feel badly for anyone who has to read through all this garbage to find that out.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

You two are a trip. I'll paraphrase.

*ungod:*

"You can't get quite enough sag, and still prevent bottom outs?"

"That's because your trail bike is actually an XC bike and you are riding it too hard. It was never meant to be taken off drops over 3ft and there is nothing you can do to change that. You should sell your shock and buy something less expensive."

"You don't like my super helpful suggestion to sell your shock and you solved your problem on your own by bumping the CR, and posted results for everyone to use? What an asshole"

_... a couple weeks go by ..._

"On my 145mm travel bike I am struggling to keep it from bottoming out when I run a pressure that gives me enough sag. I had a totally original idea and added volume spacers to raise the CR. It now rides well, has enough sag, and doesn't bottom out, but I have an irrational fear of the CR value"

*Nurse Ben:*

"I just set all my suspension to the baseline settings and ride it as is. Trying to improve your suspension settings is a fool's errand."

_(to a complete stranger on the internet)_

"I won't listen to a word CCS86 says because he lacks experience and isn't a good rider"

I'll stand by all my posts on this thread. I always spoke to the issues, nothing personal or rude, and shared data I gathered. I showed appreciation for all those who tried to offer help, even if I didn't agree. Only ungod continued to offer the same "suggestion" (to sell the shock) over and over. When I directly told him that I wasn't interested in his opinion, he got butt hurt.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

At least now I am finally "guilty" of re-engineering my bike:

This "XC" bike now sits at:

Front travel: 140mm
Rear travel: 140mm
Head angle: 65.2*
Wheelbase: 1212mm
BB height: 344mm


----------



## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

ITT: CC86 doesn't understand what "block list" means, continues threadshitting.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Doesn't the whole "upsize your bike or not" argument deserve it's own thread?

There's a lot of others who would love to put their oars in. But they'll miss it tucked in here.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

CCS86 said:


> I couldn't resist checking this out and trying the frozen can trick.
> 
> Unfortunately, with my 210x55, both the can and air piston seal engage at essentially the same time.
> 
> On the plus side, doing the frozen can trick got me about 6% extra sag. That is definitely a win!


Would it be possible to slip a few chips of dry ice into the negative chamber before it seals? Once it evaporates into CO2 gas it'll pressurize the chamber nicely and should get you a lot more sag than simply freezing the shock.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I will start one just for you 



Dougal said:


> Doesn't the whole "upsize your bike or not" argument deserve it's own thread?
> 
> There's a lot of others who would love to put their oars in. But they'll miss it tucked in here.


----------



## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Doesn't the whole "upsize your bike or not" argument deserve it's own thread?
> 
> There's a lot of others who would love to put their oars in. But they'll miss it tucked in here.


Absolutely. In hindsight, I should have just ignored ungod. I thought he would be able to quickly accept that I was not going to sell my shock, but boy was I wrong. He kept pushing this "wrong bike" agenda, and I kept replying. I think all the other discussion was relatively on-topic though.



aerius said:


> Would it be possible to slip a few chips of dry ice into the negative chamber before it seals? Once it evaporates into CO2 gas it'll pressurize the chamber nicely and should get you a lot more sag than simply freezing the shock.


I had that thought pop into my head too. You want to try it and report back?


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

CCS86 said:


> I had that thought pop into my head too. You want to try it and report back?


I would, if I had a Mara Pro. My bike upgrades are currently on hold until I see what various manufacturers come up with in their 2021 models. I'm getting near the point where a new bike starts to make more sense than continuing to upgrade my current one.


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## Kamkam (Feb 25, 2019)

aerius said:


> I'm getting near the point where a new bike starts to make more sense than continuing to upgrade my current one.


Maybe I'm different, but I finally found what geo works for me and have no intentions of buying a new bike anytime soon. Plus I'm picky with what components I run, so I would end up swapping out parts, anyways.


----------



## mattp (Jul 5, 2006)

I read this entire thread, and comprehended not the entire thread.

At the risk of reviving something that might be better left to die, I have a simple question...

I am 260-280 depending on the season, riding a Santa Cruz Hightower v2 (xxl), do want the Mara or the Mara Pro?

I am just a trail rider, no bike parks.

Thanks.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

mattp said:


> I read this entire thread, and comprehended not the entire thread.
> 
> At the risk of reviving something that might be better left to die, I have a simple question...
> 
> ...


You're kind of on the line between the two like my bike is, IMO. I would probably go for the Mara Pro, but plan to install a lot of volume spacers in the air can.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Mara Pro in action:


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## trailhawk (Jul 29, 2020)

CCS86 - I've been following this thread for a while as I love my Mattoc Pro on my Fuel EX8 and wanted to swap my Fox DPS for either the Pro or Mara Inline (Pro won't fit due to length of the piggy back hitting my down tube. 

But from this video, it looks like your Pro is going through mid-stroke pretty easily. I realize videos can skew reality and you spent a lot of time on this shock on your bike!

My DPS also blows through mid-stroke to easy due to its regressive tune. 

Was this video representative of hard and quick hits?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

trailhawk said:


> CCS86 - I've been following this thread for a while as I love my Mattoc Pro on my Fuel EX8 and wanted to swap my Fox DPS for either the Pro or Mara Inline (Pro won't fit due to length of the piggy back hitting my down tube.
> 
> But from this video, it looks like your Pro is going through mid-stroke pretty easily. I realize videos can skew reality and you spent a lot of time on this shock on your bike!
> 
> ...


The shock feels great!

I have room to run it with more air, but choose not to because our trails are really chunky. I love how well it irons out the chunk and keeps the tire on the ground. It recovers really well, so it never packs down on successive hits.

This isn't the roughest trail by far, but super fun with some good flow and jumps. Here's the front view if it helps you get a better view of the terrain:


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## spokeywheeler (Dec 1, 2006)

Mounted up a new Mara Pro on my new Ripmo V2 (210 x 55mm) and started setting it up and immediately noticed an issue while trying to set the initial air pressure. Setting with sag left the spring rate way too soft, and by feel gave me about 5mm sag. It also had a hard top out unless I dialed in max rebound. So I started reading this thread and learned about the negative spring "reset". I pulled the air can today and found it pretty dry overall with minimal grease on the main air seal and nothing in the outer can. Also, as soon as I pulled the can off I found a big thick black hair laying across the main air seal. Not sure if that was the problem but definitely now what you want! Pulling the outer can I found three volume spacers installed from the factory. I added two more Rockshox bands to reduce volume a bit more. I re-greased everything and reinstalled the air can and got the shock back on the bike. All good now, sag is where it should be, spring rate is good, and no more harsh top out. Now I can start setting compression and rebound settings. Glad it was a easy fix.


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

*rebuild*

Hi all, 
got 2 questions , will be changing the frame next year. Wonder how difficult would be to convert 200x56 to 210x55(56)?
And is it possible to rotate the shock parts so that the upper mount eyelet and lower mount eyelet axes will be 90dgr against each other? Cause that's how fox's and roxkshocks are mounted in Commenzal Meta frames.
Thanks for input


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

torcha said:


> Hi all,
> got 2 questions , will be changing the frame next year. Wonder how difficult would be to convert 200x56 to 210x55(56)?
> And is it possible to rotate the shock parts so that the upper mount eyelet and lower mount eyelet axes will be 90dgr against each other? Cause that's how fox's and roxkshocks are mounted in Commenzal Meta frames.
> Thanks for input


Definitely ready to rotate for the different eyelet orientation. But I'm not sure about the size conversion prospect.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

torcha said:


> Hi all,
> got 2 questions , will be changing the frame next year. Wonder how difficult would be to convert 200x56 to 210x55(56)?
> And is it possible to rotate the shock parts so that the upper mount eyelet and lower mount eyelet axes will be 90dgr against each other? Cause that's how fox's and roxkshocks are mounted in Commenzal Meta frames.
> Thanks for input


I haven't seen a 200x56 Mara Pro yet. It may be possible to swap on the 10mm longer damper body from a 230x65 which would make it a 210x56mm.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

trailhawk said:


> CCS86 - I've been following this thread for a while as I love my Mattoc Pro on my Fuel EX8 and wanted to swap my Fox DPS for either the Pro or Mara Inline (Pro won't fit due to length of the piggy back hitting my down tube.
> 
> But from this video, it looks like your Pro is going through mid-stroke pretty easily. I realize videos can skew reality and you spent a lot of time on this shock on your bike!
> 
> ...


This is basically the issue I've been chasing on my mid travel bike (145mm). If you run an excess of air pressure you can avoid bottomouts, but then you can't use HSC because it will spike. The alternative is you can run less pressure and use HSC, and be at the correct sag, but you will bottom out on occasion.

Right now I'm running less air pressure and using HSC, which does a good job of keeping the shock from blowing through the mid stroke, but I do get really close to bottoming on even smaller drops (1-2'). Currently running 140psi at 175lbs.

I've got an email in with Hayes as of a week ago to buy a standard air can, but I'm guessing they are backed up like everyone else. I'll post up when I hear back.

I had a really similar experience on the McLeod. I had one on each of my Canfield's. The Riot (140mm) just couldn't handle the king can no matter what I did to it. The Balance (165mm) worked perfectly with the king can as it were. Swapping to the standard air can on the Riot fixed all my issues. I'm not a tuning expert but I don't think the entire issue is with the air can volume, because my CR is about maxed out on this shock. I think there is an additional issue like perhaps the matching large negative chamber on the king can. My understanding is that a large negative chamber would continue to "push" through the mid stroke to some degree. On the McLeod, the king can increased the size of the negative chamber as well as the positive, so I'm guessing it's probably the same on the Mara.

Don't mean to sound like I'm complaining. This shock in all the settings I've tried is miles better than the dialed 2020 X2 I took off. I'm just chasing my Goldilocks setting. It's an incredible match to both my RUNT'ed GRIP2 36 and my current Mezzer.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

trailhawk said:


> But from this video, it looks like your Pro is going through mid-stroke pretty easily. I realize videos can skew reality and you spent a lot of time on this shock on your bike!


I actually found that the air was a good 5psi low from my setpoint when I shot the video. That contributed.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

Picked one of these guys for my Commencal 2021 META-TR - the FOX Float DPS Performance didn't work too well for my weight (220 lbs geared up) as I had to pump it up to 285 psi to get the right sag (basically made it quite hard). The Mara Pro (210x55) only needs 165'ish psi or so to get the right sag - definitely feels a lot more supple so far.


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## ipadl (Jun 6, 2008)

I received my Mara Pro yesterday and got it installed today on my Hightower v1. The only way that it fits without concern/frame contact is if it's inverted and upside down rendering the water bottle cage useless (I can make do). However, if I somehow have the longer reservoir it might fit the other way allowing me to continue to use that water bottle cage.

Mine measures about 7cm from the seam to the air cap. Anybody know if I have the short one or the long one?

Thanks!

Seth









Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


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## torcha (May 11, 2020)

funks said:


> Picked one of these guys for my Commencal 2021 META-TR - the FOX Float DPS Performance didn't work too well for my weight (220 lbs geared up) as I had to pump it up to 285 psi to get the right sag (basically made it quite hard). The Mara Pro (210x55) only needs 165'ish psi or so to get the right sag - definitely feels a lot more supple so far.


Do you have Mezzer on that frame too? Asking cause I§d like to switch to new Meta TR aswell next spring. So I am pretty curious..


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

torcha said:


> Do you have Mezzer on that frame too? Asking cause I§d like to switch to new Meta TR aswell next spring. So I am pretty curious..


I'm running a Marzocchi Bomber Z1 (Air) in the front. 150mm travel, with 44mm offset.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

spokeywheeler said:


> Mounted up a new Mara Pro on my new Ripmo V2 (210 x 55mm) and started setting it up and immediately noticed an issue while trying to set the initial air pressure. Setting with sag left the spring rate way too soft, and by feel gave me about 5mm sag. It also had a hard top out unless I dialed in max rebound. So I started reading this thread and learned about the negative spring "reset". I pulled the air can today and found it pretty dry overall with minimal grease on the main air seal and nothing in the outer can. Also, as soon as I pulled the can off I found a big thick black hair laying across the main air seal. Not sure if that was the problem but definitely now what you want! Pulling the outer can I found three volume spacers installed from the factory. I added two more Rockshox bands to reduce volume a bit more. I re-greased everything and reinstalled the air can and got the shock back on the bike. All good now, sag is where it should be, spring rate is good, and no more harsh top out. Now I can start setting compression and rebound settings. Glad it was a easy fix.
> View attachment 1363109


Ok so I gotta ask. What travel spacers are you using to reduce the travel? I know you said RockShox but for what shock?


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## spokeywheeler (Dec 1, 2006)

gregnash said:


> Ok so I gotta ask. What travel spacers are you using to reduce the travel? I know you said RockShox but for what shock?


They are from a Rockshox bottomless ring kit for RS Monarch/Vivid Air. I had them leftover from a previous bike that had a Monarch Plus on it. They fit snugly around the Mara air can but are a bit thinner than the Manitou ones that came pre installed. Unfortunately Manitou didn't include any additional spacers in the box. Btw these are to reduce volume in the air can not to reduce travel.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Travel reduction spacers and volume spacers are two very different things.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

CCS86 said:


> Travel reduction spacers and volume spacers are two very different things.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


AH! See that is why I was asking as I was reading it as the TRAVEL reduction spacers... which had me like???:skep:

Glad that I asked.


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## ipadl (Jun 6, 2008)

Since we are on the topic of travel reduction spacers I would love some input on the steps necessary to install one. I just received my 5mm spacer from Manitou and would like to install the spacer in the upcoming weeks. Looking through the master service document it shows disassembly of the IFP (which I don't think it necessary). Would anybody who has done this procedure in the past help me understand which of the steps are necessary and which are not?

In general I'm guessing:
Steps 1-5 (pgs 6-7) - Removal of air can, bumper and volume spacers (if present)
Steps 17-18 (pg 11) - Removal of air piston from damper body and top cap from shock shaft
Step 16-17 (pg 25) - installation of bottom shims/spacers
Step 6-8 (pg 27-28) - (re)installation of top cap on shock shaft
Step 1-3 (pg 29)* - Damper bleed

*The instructions state to "add oil if needed to top off the damper once the piston is installed." Does this mean adding the oil above the piston? How would you top off the damper once the piston is installed if not above the piston?

I previously purchased (but have not used) this Maxima oil with the intent of using it in my Mara Pro and Mattoc. However, I'm seeing reference to Maxima full synthetic oil and I'm not sure that this qualifies. Anybody know?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...b_asin_title_o06_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1&pldnSite=1


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

My shock came with some air in the damper oil, a half hour into a ride it would start sounding slurpy and squeaky. There was no air pressure on the air spring side when I bought it which may have caused the ifp pressure to leak across or maybe it was just a bad bleed from the factory. When I opened the bleed screw to check for air there was quite a bit so I did a half assed bleed but probably need to do a proper one. Had a bout 220 psi on the shock pump after connecting it to the ifp chamber whick seems ok considering how small the ifp chamber is. After bleeding I used a drill press and some wooden blocks to cycle the shock. All the low speed adjustments seem to be working and I could not hear or feel any air when cycling the shock. Work mode is pretty bipolar, lots of compression damping and a lot less rebound damping. 

Out on the trails things are better but I'm still getting bucked a bit. Traction and small bump compliance are really good, sometimes I blow through travel when leaned over and pedaling hard out of a corner and encountering a bump. Overall I'd say the Mara is preforming at about 80% now, about 60% before bleeding. I'd rate the dpx2 that came with the bike around 20%. Shock is 210 x 50 on a 2020 Commencal Meta TR, I'm about 230 pounds running 190psi in the air can with the LSC and rebound adjusters closed. HSC is a couple clicks from full closed. 

The shock is pretty new and purchased directly from the Canadian distributor. I'm considering sending it back to them but this is my favorite part of the riding season and i don't want to loose any ride time. Is there anything to be gained by using a thicker damper fluid? Is there enough flexibility in the shim stacks to tune them by moving shims around or do I need to buy heavier shims?


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## Nicklz (Sep 30, 2020)

arc said:


> Shock is 210 x 50 on a 2020 Commencal Meta TR, I'm about 230 pounds running 190psi in the air can with the LSC and rebound adjusters closed. HSC is a couple clicks from full closed.


Sorry to ask stupid questions, the Mara is my first Pro shock and I'm still getting used to the dials and trying to find my setup: 
When you say LSC closed is that turned all the way clockwise and means maximum damping? 
How does it work for HSC and rebound? 
From which side are clicks typically counted and is the first notch 0 or 1?

The setup manual is not helpful at all in this respect for a newbie. Thanks!


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## ipadl (Jun 6, 2008)

Nicklz said:


> When you say LSC closed is that turned all the way clockwise and means maximum damping?
> How does it work for HSC and rebound?
> From which side are clicks typically counted and is the first notch 0 or 1?
> 
> The setup manual is not helpful at all in this respect for a newbie. Thanks!


Strangely I found the set up notes in the manual to be pretty clear on this. That said, it does count them differently depending on the setting:

1. Rebound - Start with Max (all the way to positive) and subtract clicks. Max should be slow rebound and Min should be fast rebound.

2. HSC - Start with Min (all the way to negative) and add clicks. Max should make it hard to compress and Min should be easy to compress (this might be difficult to simulate if not riding).

3. LSC - Start with Max (all the way to positive) and subtract clicks. Max should make it hard to compress and Min should be easy to compress.

Not sure why they do it that way but I recall another thread suggesting that this was the most accurate way to measure clicks. Can't remember why, though.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Just received my Mara Pro. I won't be able to ride it until next week but had a question. I thought the Work/Party mode was just that, work or party. The one I received has 2 detent settings between party and work. Is this a running change, making 4 settings of platform? Or it just how this shock is put together?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ipadl said:


> I received my Mara Pro yesterday and got it installed today on my Hightower v1. The only way that it fits without concern/frame contact is if it's inverted and upside down rendering the water bottle cage useless (I can make do). However, if I somehow have the longer reservoir it might fit the other way allowing me to continue to use that water bottle cage.
> 
> Mine measures about 7cm from the seam to the air cap. Anybody know if I have the short one or the long one?
> 
> ...


Short piggy back is 125mm from eyelet to reservoir end (on an eyelet shock). The long is 140mm.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

spokeywheeler said:


> Mounted up a new Mara Pro on my new Ripmo V2 (210 x 55mm) and started setting it up and immediately noticed an issue while trying to set the initial air pressure. Setting with sag left the spring rate way too soft, and by feel gave me about 5mm sag. It also had a hard top out unless I dialed in max rebound. So I started reading this thread and learned about the negative spring "reset". I pulled the air can today and found it pretty dry overall with minimal grease on the main air seal and nothing in the outer can. Also, as soon as I pulled the can off I found a big thick black hair laying across the main air seal. Not sure if that was the problem but definitely now what you want! Pulling the outer can I found three volume spacers installed from the factory. I added two more Rockshox bands to reduce volume a bit more. I re-greased everything and reinstalled the air can and got the shock back on the bike. All good now, sag is where it should be, spring rate is good, and no more harsh top out. Now I can start setting compression and rebound settings. Glad it was a easy fix.
> View attachment 1363109


Report back when you get some more riding in with the Mara pro on the v2. I'm looking to order a frame and was considering the x2 or just getting the stock topaz and replacing with Mara pro (like I have on my current bike and love).


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

rupps5 said:


> Just received my Mara Pro. I won't be able to ride it until next week but had a question. I thought the Work/Party mode was just that, work or party. The one I received has 2 detent settings between party and work. Is this a running change, making 4 settings of platform? Or it just how this shock is put together?


There should only be two settings. The work/party adjuster switches oil flow between 2 separate valves. Any setting in-between would serve no purpose and likely perform poorly as it would choke oil flow as it splits the flow between the two paths.


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## lachman (Jan 29, 2019)

https://hayesbicycle.com/collections/manitou/products/maraproaircan_z?variant=34635435507757

Not sure if this has been mentioned but looks like a single/standard/low volume can is available now. I'm keen to try as I'm 90kg and shock set at 210psi and I still feel like I use up my travel a lot easier than I should. I haven't played with any volume reduction yet though, what is everyone using to achieve this?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

lachman said:


> https://hayesbicycle.com/collections/manitou/products/maraproaircan_z?variant=34635435507757
> 
> Not sure if this has been mentioned but looks like a single/standard/low volume can is available now. I'm keen to try as I'm 90kg and shock set at 210psi and I still feel like I use up my travel a lot easier than I should. I haven't played with any volume reduction yet though, what is everyone using to achieve this?


My shock didn't ship with volume spacers, so I 3D printed some. Newer shocks seem to include them. Between that and packing some grease around the spacers, I think you can get pretty close to a standard volume can. It would have been nice for them to add another o-ring groove that blocked the outer chamber entirely.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Yeah I heard back from Hayes that they would sell the standard air cans, but for almost $100 I've got other things to spend money on right now. I'd like to know how they do though...if anyone gets ahold of one to test then let's hear it!


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Anyone using the Mara pro on a DW link bike like Ripmo or switchblade?

Guess my question is specifically to the Switchblade. Apparently the dpx2 was pretty specially tuned for that frame. I assume given the tunability of the Mara pro, the answer is its not bad and maybe better, but curious if others have experience good or bad.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

wildh said:


> Anyone using the Mara pro on a DW link bike like Ripmo or switchblade?
> 
> Guess my question is specifically to the Switchblade. Apparently the dpx2 was pretty specially tuned for that frame. I assume given the tunability of the Mara pro, the answer is its not bad and maybe better, but curious if others have experience good or bad.


I'm on a Ripmo v1 and very happy with the Mara Pro. Previously I had the Fox X2 on it and I was not as happy with that. The Fox seemed to like to ride deeper in the travel no matter what I did, which made technical climbs more difficult.

Honestly the biggest reason I upgraded to the Mara was because I can service and tune the Mara Pro myself without any special tools. That's not true of the X2.

I don't really know anything about the Switchblade, nor have I spent any appreciable time on a DPX2 for comparison. It looks like the Switchblade has a very progressive rear suspension, which will be good for the Mara Pro (my Ripmo is less progressive and finds bottom more frequently than I'd like).


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

What are some home brew options for air volume reduction on the mara pro? I would like to experiment with reducing volume this weekend so won't have time to order "official" volume reducers.

Evolution Training Cycles


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

As long as you use something that isn't going to degrade and migrate around inside the chamber, you should be fine (it's a very small hole, so pretty unlikely to migrate very far anyways). I happened to have a sheet of 2mm plastic laying around from another project, so I just cut that up and threw it in there. Maybe you could use the plastic from a thick bottle, like a laundry detergent container? Or cut a yogurt container/milk jug twice as long as wrap it 2x. 

If you have to go buy something you might as well just get the appropriate spacers.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rupps5 said:


> What are some home brew options for air volume reduction on the mara pro? I would like to experiment with reducing volume this weekend so won't have time to order "official" volume reducers.
> 
> Evolution Training Cycles


Some have used RS Volume bands in the outer-can. I haven't tried them on the Mara, I did on the McLeod and they were a tight fit. I used o-rings instead.

Grease works fine in the main can and is infinitely adjustable.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Great suggestions, thanks guys.

Evolution Training Cycles


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Any of you guys been into your Maras to check the bleed a few times? 

Twice now I have left it with a completely air free bleed, IFP set to the correct depth and run at 290-300 psi for the entire interval. After maybe 10 rides, I'll check it and it's full of air.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

CCS86 said:


> Any of you guys been into your Maras to check the bleed a few times?
> 
> Twice now I have left it with a completely air free bleed, IFP set to the correct depth and run at 290-300 psi for the entire interval. After maybe 10 rides, I'll check it and it's full of air.


How are you filling it with oil?.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Rick Draper said:


> How are you filling it with oil?.


RS M5 bleed syringe.

I generally pump oil back and forth using the IFP and the syringe. If I try to use suction with the syringe, there is always air in the oil. As soon as I switch to only using positive pressure, I get the bubbles bled out quickly.

I think it might be sucking air past this guy during vacuum bleeding, and if that's the case, ingesting air there during operation. Shaft is damage free and well greased.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> RS M5 bleed syringe.
> 
> I generally pump oil back and forth using the IFP and the syringe. If I try to use suction with the syringe, there is always air in the oil. As soon as I switch to only using positive pressure, I get the bubbles bled out quickly.
> 
> I think it might be sucking air past this guy during vacuum bleeding, and if that's the case, ingesting air there during operation. Shaft is damage free and well greased.


I'm having the same problems with ingesting air while riding and vacuum bleeding. I suspect my adapter is stopping on the radius and not compressing the o ring properly, I also lost my good syringe and the cheap pos I'm using might be letting me down.

I'm not seeing any images of the part you suspect is not sealing correctly. With three hundred psi in the ifp the shock would need to develop a lot of negative pressure in operation to create a vacuum at a seal. I suspect the ifp piston may be leaking a bit given the amount of oil that came out of my shock pump when I discharged it. I've been refilling with 3wt oil and it seems to leak less but haven't been riding much lately due to too much rain.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Just wanted to report Rockshox volume reducer bands fit the mara pro perfectly.

Evolution Training Cycles


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Anyone running the Mara Pro on a DW Link bike (Pivot SB ideally)? Just wondering if there is any pros or cons you noticed.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

I am on an Ibis Mojo HD4.

Been on it about a month and it works really well. 

Have been using Fox Float X2, DVO Jade X, and Storia Lok V3 on the same frame and I would put the Mara Pro just behind the Storia.

Jade X was good but not having a bottom out on the shock for this frame caused some challenges under certain conditions.

The Mara is very much like the Storia in that you don't really think about it being there while riding other than flipping the work/play switch back and forth once in awhile.

Definitely wouldn't hesitate to run this on a DW link frame and I'm running slight adjustments on the Manitou stock recommended setups.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

A better answer to your question on my part is that the Mara, like all good shocks, melds itself well to the frame versus some other shocks where they are good with the right frame kinematics but a bit funky when used outside of that if that makes sense...like some shocks seem better on specific frames and more dicey outside of that band.

Not true with the Mara for sure in my experience.

I have had some time on a Mach 6 and I can't remember off the top of my head what the differences are between the various DW Link flavors but I see the Mara as a shock that is a chameleon where it works on various frames without feeling limited or wonky.

Topaz is like that too in my experience.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks. That's quite helpful and kind of confirms what my hunches were. 

To be clear, I own a Mara Pro currently mounted on my GT Force Carbon. It replaced a DPX2 that I just wasn't in love with. I quickly found the Mara Pro to be a better shock for that frame and allowed more adjustability to overcome a few things that DPX2 didn't have. The stock DPX2 on the Force was pretty light in terms of tune and it was ok on dedicated DH runs, but for general riding which is a lot more of what I do, it really struggled for pedaling. The Mara Pro allowed for me to better adjust HSC and LSC to make for a much better all around feel. 

I'm getting a Pivot Switchblade and it runs the same shock size 185x55 Trunion and was just thinking of swapping the Mara Pro over (will definitely be running a Mezzer vs fox 36) vs the stock DPX2 it comes with. Apparently Pivot had Fox rework the DPX2 for the SB quite extensively primarily by making it more progressive and have a light early stroke, which I actually think is what was missing on the Force DPX2 tune. 

I do really like the Mara Pro and all of Manitous new stuff. 

Only thing I would maybe do is adjust the Work platform a bit as there isn't a lot of difference between the two modes on my shock. From what I saw in a quick tear down video, it looks pretty simple. Just remove the reservoir can, remove nut, add shim, reassemble, done. Is it that easy? Also, where does one get those shims?


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

I bet Manitou would send you some if you contact them and/or tell you more details on going about that to achieve what you are looking for.

I swap suspension around quite a bit with the theory being that riding lots of different stuff helps me to understand better what I like and what I don't and also helps when reading a review or forum to better appreciate context.

That means I rarely, if ever, run the same company front and rear but I have been running a Mezzer and Mara Pro at the same time and it is pretty fly.

Very well synchronized together for sure.


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## R.T.R. (Sep 20, 2005)

wildh said:


> Anyone running the Mara Pro on a DW Link bike (Pivot SB ideally)? Just wondering if there is any pros or cons you noticed.


I've been running the Mara Pro on my Ibis HD5 as well as the Mara IL on a Mojo4 and Ripley V4 with a Ripmo V2 currently under construction that is Mara Pro equipped.
IMO the Mara's compliment the DWLink nicely, much better than the stock Fox offerings.

I have to say some of the sweetest suspension I've ever been on.
All with Mezzer's on the front as well.

I guess you could say I'm all in !


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## Nicklz (Sep 30, 2020)

I occaasionally bottom out and would like to try reducing volume a bit. I got some Rockshox spacer bands, can someone guide me through installing them? 
Is it just a matter of deflate, unscrew can, install rings, screw on, pump up or more magic involved? Thanks


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Nicklz said:


> I occaasionally bottom out and would like to try reducing volume a bit. I got some Rockshox spacer bands, can someone guide me through installing them?
> Is it just a matter of deflate, unscrew can, install rings, screw on, pump up or more magic involved? Thanks


You can find the basic instructions here (50 hr service).

https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360049180473-Mara-Pro-

I've not done it. Only question I have is whether cycling the shock is necessary when unscrewing the can. Otherwise the procedure looks to be the same as nearly every other shock.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

wildh said:


> You can find the basic instructions here (50 hr service).
> 
> https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360049180473-Mara-Pro-
> 
> I've not done it. Only question I have is whether cycling the shock is necessary when unscrewing the can. Otherwise the procedure looks to be the same as nearly every other shock.


Cycling these does nothing.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Was hoping you'd chime in on that dougal! Thanks. I'll not worry about cycling it when taking the can off. Was scratching my head why that would be necessary.

Do they make a basic service kit for this (seals, wiper, foam ring)? Or only the $60 full kit?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

wildh said:


> Was hoping you'd chime in on that dougal! Thanks. I'll not worry about cycling it when taking the can off. Was scratching my head why that would be necessary.
> 
> Do they make a basic service kit for this (seals, wiper, foam ring)? Or only the $60 full kit?


They picture a shock compressor in the manual because you risk ripping off a can thread due to negative chamber pressure.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## trikwires (Nov 13, 2020)

*Physical Dimensions*

Looking for the measurement on the reservoir for the Mara Pro. It seems to hang down quite far compared to others. Read on for a some background...

I have a 2018 Trek Fuel EX-7 with an 18.5 frame size. While my riding style and experience level only needs a Mara inline, I feel like that shock and all inlines are possibly lacking in adjustment. The Mara Pro has so many useable adjustments and the inline shocks seem to have to compromise on them because of the inherent lack of real estate.

So with that said, a Mara Pro would be nice on my bike, but I am very concerned with how my frame quickly curves up after the bottom bracket. with all the air out of my current 210x52.5 Fox DPS, I am thinking that the Mara Pro reservoir may come dangerously close to hitting my downtube, especially because the Mara only comes in a 55mm travel (2.5mm longer than my stock shock).

The travel is not an issue anywhere else in the suspension, but I would need to know the exact measurements to see if this would fit. Anyone have a Mara pro that can measure the distance from the shock centerline out to the outer edge of the reservoir? Also need the length from the center of the eyelet down to how long the reservoir is. Basically so I know the outermost point of the reservoir from the top eyelet center, as that is the spot that will contact my frame.


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## trikwires (Nov 13, 2020)

Just an FYI, I was thinking about getting a Mara Pro since I liked the adjustments better than the inline Mara. Found where Manitou said the outer edge of the reservoir is 61mm out from the shock centerline and 125mm down from the center of the top mount eye. 

I knew it was a pretty long can on the reservoir and it is 3mm too long to fit on my 2018 Trek Fuel EX-7 (frame size 18.5"). The bottom outer corner of the reservoir will knock into the downtube. This clearance is something to take note of with other boke that have a vertically mounted shock like the Trek Fuel. 

Bummer! I know the Mara Pro is way more shock than I need for my riding, and I guess this "forces" me to stick with an inline Mara. I only wish there was more details on them as to what the true difference is between the McLeod and the Mara. The price difference is almost $200 now...


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

trikwires said:


> Just an FYI, I was thinking about getting a Mara Pro since I liked the adjustments better than the inline Mara. Found where Manitou said the outer edge of the reservoir is 61mm out from the shock centerline and 125mm down from the center of the top mount eye.
> 
> I knew it was a pretty long can on the reservoir and it is 3mm too long to fit on my 2018 Trek Fuel EX-7 (frame size 18.5"). The bottom outer corner of the reservoir will knock into the downtube. This clearance is something to take note of with other boke that have a vertically mounted shock like the Trek Fuel.
> 
> Bummer! I know the Mara Pro is way more shock than I need for my riding, and I guess this "forces" me to stick with an inline Mara. I only wish there was more details on them as to what the true difference is between the McLeod and the Mara. The price difference is almost $200 now...


I was wondering about this. I have a 2021 Pivot Switchblade on order and hoped to mount my Mara Pro on that frame, but looking at it, I was concerned about the same thing.

I thought that I read somewhere that they make a shorter reservoir can? Can anyone confirm this?


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## trikwires (Nov 13, 2020)

Upon looking, I found this thread that says Manitou has a shorter reservoir. I have not inquired myself yet. If the 10mm difference is true, then that would solve my issues. I do not know if the 125mm dimension I was given by another person was with the standard size or if it was shorter. I hear that the difference is due to the eyelet vs trunnion mount shocks, but that they can be swapped.


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTB/comments/dplrcm/_/f607nvy


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## trikwires (Nov 13, 2020)

I sent Hayes/Manitou a support request for technical info on the Mara Pro. I wanted to confirm a few of the things I have now read in various places about the fact that there are short IFP reservoirs. Also for them to measure the shock to know the furthest point of the reservoir for at least the 210x55 I need with the current and any shorter reservoir.

Finally I asked how to obtain these said reservoirs since they are not shown anywhere in their literature or site.

I will report back when they answer. Their support is supposedly not open again till Monday.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

trikwires said:


> I sent Hayes/Manitou a support request for technical info on the Mara Pro. I wanted to confirm a few of the things I have now read in various places about the fact that there are short IFP reservoirs. Also for them to measure the shock to know the furthest point of the reservoir for at least the 210x55 I need with the current and any shorter reservoir.
> 
> Finally I asked how to obtain these said reservoirs since they are not shown anywhere in their literature or site.
> 
> I will report back when they answer. Their support is supposedly not open again till Monday.


Hopefully this helps. It is my 210x50 / 210x55


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Fwiw on a short travel bike (145mm) I'm still having issues with bottom out on my Mara pro. Between that and reservoir fitment issues I would not hesitate to get the inline instead. 

I've got a standard air can on order that'll be here on Monday, but it was an extra $100 on top of the Mara pro price. Not something I'm super happy about, but I've got the king can pretty well stuffed and it's not even close to where I want it. Will follow up with some feedback.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

The standard can will not meaningfully reduce the positive volume compared to the large can fully stuffed. Geometrically, it can't.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## trikwires (Nov 13, 2020)

Thanks CCS86- That pic does confirm what I found elsewhere for the IFP reservoir size. Now to see if that interference point can be reduced by anything that Manitou offers. 
If it costs more than the current price of the Mara Pro, then I will probably need to step away as I cannot justify that for my riding ability. I am just stuck on the DIY rebuild-ability of the Mara Pro versus the inline Mara. I know I can always got to a DVO Topaz3 for the rebuildable nature of that shock, but not sure I want to...


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

There is a long reservoir and a short reservoir. The long reservoir is used on shocks with strokes of 60mm or more and the short is used on shocks with strokes shorter than 60mm. The exception is the 216x63 imperial size comes stock with the shorter reservoir. 

The longer reservoir extends 140mm

I have the data sheets, but I'mm not allowed to post them. Time has been hard to come by lately, but I will try harder to keep up with these threads and answer any questions.


As for bottom out resistance, the standard can does offer more progression than the king can filled with spacers. I don't remember off the top of my head how much, but it's something like 4-5cc. 

You can adjust ifp depth to gain some progression as well.


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## trikwires (Nov 13, 2020)

Thanks Mullen119, makes sense that the longer travel shocks have a larger IFP reservoir as they need to be able to compensate for the larger volume of the shock shaft. Sounds like the measurements provided in the pic a few posts ago are accurate for the 210x55 shock I would need, and therefore it would not work on the 2018 Trek Fuel.

I took a min to read the McLeod shock tuning thread that you have linked in your signature. I guess I did not realize people were also rebuilding those on their own and using the correct fitting with good shock pumps to pressurize the IFP. I was assuming they needed a higher PSI and required nitrogen, thus negating any DIY on them. 

I assume then this will be the case with the inline Mara as well, so that makes me a bit less sad to have to "settle" on the inline version.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

trikwires said:


> Thanks Mullen119, makes sense that the longer travel shocks have a larger IFP reservoir as they need to be able to compensate for the larger volume of the shock shaft. Sounds like the measurements provided in the pic a few posts ago are accurate for the 210x55 shock I would need, and therefore it would not work on the 2018 Trek Fuel.
> 
> I took a min to read the McLeod shock tuning thread that you have linked in your signature. I guess I did not realize people were also rebuilding those on their own and using the correct fitting with good shock pumps to pressurize the IFP. I was assuming they needed a higher PSI and required nitrogen, thus negating any DIY on them.
> 
> I assume then this will be the case with the inline Mara as well, so that makes me a bit less sad to have to "settle" on the inline version.


One of the test riders uses a Trek as a test bike, not sure if it's a fuel though. I'll look into it.









For a 210x55, measurement "C" is 29.6mm. not sure if that helps you figure out if it will fit.

The inline version is an excellent shock, it's not really a downgrade. It benefits greatly from years of R&D and fine tuning. I am confident you will find it's performance in stock form to exceed your expectations.

The atmosphere is 78% nitrogen. Using a regular shock pump to fill up IFP chambers on any shock is absolutely fine, assuming you have a method to hit the recommended pressure. Mara inline/McLeod IFP pressure is 300psi, which most pumps are capable of. It's one of the easiest shocks on the market to rebuild assuming you have moderate mechanical ability and work clean.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

mullen119 said:


> As for bottom out resistance, the standard can does offer more progression than the king can filled with spacers. I don't remember off the top of my head how much, but it's something like 4-5cc.


That is a larger reduction than I would expect. We are really only talking about the volume left inside the "mid" chamber, after filling with bands and the tiny passages that feed it, right? I know the outer sleeve of the can is undercut in the chamber area, so it's hard to fill completely and still be able to install the sleeve.



mullen119 said:


> You can adjust ifp depth to gain some progression as well.


Is there a safe minimum IFP insertion? I'd imagine that with a 300 psi starting charge, and a small volume, you could ramp up to very high pressures.

Have you ever seen IFP charge burp past the IFP? I keep finding air in my damper. So, it seems most likely to be bypassing the IFP or the main shaft seal.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> As for bottom out resistance, the standard can does offer more progression than the king can filled with spacers. I don't remember off the top of my head how much, but it's something like 4-5cc.
> 
> You can adjust ifp depth to gain some progression as well.


Thanks for the info, I called Hayes and they weren't really able to tell me much of substance. My hope is that it will also reduce the negative spring size, which might help me a little in the mid stroke.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CCS86 said:


> That is a larger reduction than I would expect. We are really only talking about the volume left inside the "mid" chamber, after filling with bands and the tiny passages that feed it, right? I know the outer sleeve of the can is undercut in the chamber area, so it's hard to fill completely and still be able to install the sleeve.
> 
> Is there a safe minimum IFP insertion? I'd imagine that with a 300 psi starting charge, and a small volume, you could ramp up to very high pressures.
> 
> Have you ever seen IFP charge burp past the IFP? I keep finding air in my damper. So, it seems most likely to be bypassing the IFP or the main shaft seal.


I don't recall off the top of my head, and it depends on shock size how long the chambers are.... But the roughly speaking...

1 rock shocks tuning band is 1cc, Manitou brand slightly less at around .8cc per band (they have cut outs to make sure the transfer ports can not be covered). Max bands is 5 or 6 depending on shock size (from memory) but the mid setting can is around 9-10 cc (again, from memory). I have the math somewhere, as well as emails with spring curves if I didn't delete them on accident, this was info that went passed me around a year ago so it's not super fresh in my head. It sticks out through because I remember being surprised how much volume was left when it was stuffed full of bands. If I can find time (recently had a baby), I will look for it and post it. I know your a math guy, so could do the math of the chamber volume for your shock.

The minimum depth depends on stroke length and I don't recall seeing a chart with a usable range. Let me know your shock size and I will see if I can find an answer for you. There is a good amount of volume under the IFP, so as long as it doesn't bottom out before full compression you should be fine. You can test that by compressing fully by hand before installing the air can. Keeping IFP pressure low can ease the effort.

I have not noticed IFP burping, but have noted that the oil gets discolored quickly. There are a lot of little places for air to hide when bleeding, so it may be air left behind. You can test the bleed by seeing how much you can compress the shock in "work" mode. This is easier to test with a hand dyno, but its a good indicator of bleed quality. There should be no free movement in "work" mode. Air left behind will cause some lose movement at the top of the stroke, followed by a significant increase in damping.


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

So it sounds like maybe packing the can full of RS bands may be the ticket? I am needing a little more progression on my PRO as well. Currently running 3 Manitou bands and grease


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

mullen119 said:


> I don't recall off the top of my head, and it depends on shock size how long the chambers are.... But the roughly speaking...
> 
> 1 rock shocks tuning band is 1cc, Manitou brand slightly less at around .8cc per band (they have cut outs to make sure the transfer ports can not be covered). Max bands is 5 or 6 depending on shock size (from memory) but the mid setting can is around 9-10 cc (again, from memory). I have the math somewhere, as well as emails with spring curves if I didn't delete them on accident, this was info that went passed me around a year ago so it's not super fresh in my head. It sticks out through because I remember being surprised how much volume was left when it was stuffed full of bands. If I can find time (recently had a baby), I will look for it and post it. I know your a math guy, so could do the math of the chamber volume for your shock.
> 
> ...


Using the detailed Mara cutaway drawing, with known values for scale, I have a revolved solid for the entire mid chamber of 7.5cc. I'll double check these values the next time I pull the can.

I have two 3D printed volume spacers in there, which are 3.1 cc each, plus a bit of grease. That would leave only 1.3cc of free volume in there, minus whatever grease I packed in. This is why I can't see the standard can being a noticeable increase in progressivity. I think that making some volume spacers to fit up in the volume near the bottom out bumper would be more effective.

I am running a 210x55, any info would be appreciated.

Definitely getting a good bleed. I am pumping fluid back and forth by cycling the IFP through it's stroke and out to a bleed syringe, also moving the shock shaft as well, moving the whole shock into different orientations as I flow fluid, etc. When it's done, I can't hear any air moving when I cycle the shock. Smooth damping.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

I might have a crack at casting silicone volume spacers, to fit up inside that volume at the top of the shock, with a 3D printed mold.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CCS86 said:


> Using the detailed Mara cutaway drawing, with known values for scale, I have a revolved solid for the entire mid chamber of 7.5cc. I'll double check these values the next time I pull the can.
> 
> I have two 3D printed volume spacers in there, which are 3.1 cc each, plus a bit of grease. That would leave only 1.3cc of free volume in there, minus whatever grease I packed in. This is why I can't see the standard can being a noticeable increase in progressivity. I think that making some volume spacers to fit up in the volume near the bottom out bumper would be more effective.
> 
> ...


Using homemade spacers is a variable compared to RS bands. If may be different for your situation than others. The RS and Manitou bands leave a good amount space above the band.

The volume of the mid chamber varies between shock sizes. I scanned though my emails last night and found spring curves from the prototypes, but the email says not to share the information. I will say that there is a significant difference between regular can and king can with spacers on those graphs though. Custom spacers are a variable that may close the gap. The regular can was/is considered to progressive, which is why the move to King Can stock was made.

I'm not sure what to say of the air in damper issue. I have not come across it, or heard of it being an issue. Might be worth sending an email to tech support if it's a continued problem. You may have a damaged seal somewhere.


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## cavo (Apr 18, 2011)

how does this shock compare with x2? i have x2 on my ripmo that i cant get along with and wandering if this would be suitable shock for the bike. i also have ripley with mcleod, that i swapped for stock dps and i really like mcleod on this bike.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

CCS86 said:


> I might have a crack at casting silicone volume spacers, to fit up inside that volume at the top of the shock, with a 3D printed mold.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


So I take it that means you are still having issues with the progression as well?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> So I take it that means you are still having issues with the progression as well?


It's more curiosity than anything. I still love this shock.

Doing my best to mimic a standard can volume, and setting main pressure to just barely keep me off the bottom on some fairly big drops, I end up at about 18% sag.

The shock feels very good, great small and large bump compliance. But when cornering hard, the rear comes around a little too easily. I want to see if I can get enough progressivity for ~25% sag and the same bottom out support; just to see if I prefer the feel or not.

I would so gladly pay for hydraulic bottom out. Such a key feature on the Mezzer.

I think that a far better solution for the tunability I want, is a negative air-fill port. Then I could tune main pressure for frequency, negative for sag/off-the-top, and volume for bottom out support. There is almost no real estate to mount one on the stock can. It would be a gamble, but you could try mounting one at 45* near the dust seal. The other problem is that the negative chamber is full of spacers, so you can't have a schrader valve hanging out in that space. Maybe a standard can has some more meat. Mullen, could you share a cutaway drawing of the standard can?

I do need to figure out if my shock is ingesting air though. Obviously gaps in the damping is lost ground for dissipating energy. Even when I have found air in the shock though, it hasn't been noticeable when sitting on the bike; including work mode.

The last 2 hits on this line definitely challenge the bottom out:


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

My bike just really prefers 25-30% sag in the rear. I can run more air pressure to keep the shock from bottoming but the ride quality quality suffers noticeably. I've added 5 psi several times and gone back. I'm not willing to make that sacrifice even if it means I need to pick up a different shock in the end.

I can definitely cram more stuff into the chamber, but before I try that i'm going to try the standard air can. If it doesn't fit the bill then it's going back to sender. 

Looking at the cutaway it doesn't appear that the king can increases the negative spring size like it does on the Mcleod, so I won't gain anything there.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

For that matter it might just be easier to plug the air transfer port with a small steel pin than to try to fill the air chamber with spacers...

Edit: I now see this is not really possible, at least without welding.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm curious - at the "Hayes" online shop, is that managed/distributed by the manufacturer from a centralized location?

As in - if ever there was a place that could offer semi-custom setups, I'd think that would be the place. I should be able to order to a Mara Pro with Standard Can via that shop.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> For that matter it might just be easier to plug the air transfer port with a small steel pin than to try to fill the air chamber with spacers...
> 
> Edit: I now see this is not really possible, at least without welding.


I have considered this too. I think it is possible, but you don't want that wire coming loose.

Honestly, a blob of hot glue on the main chamber side of each port could do the trick with minimal risk.

I ordered one of these to have on hand for potential negative chamber filling: https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/products/rockshox-bar-air-valve-assembly?variant=30994106693


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> One of the test riders uses a Trek as a test bike, not sure if it's a fuel though. I'll look into it.
> 
> View attachment 1377109
> 
> ...


Was planning on running my 185x55 Mara Pro on the 2020 Switchblade. Not sure if it's going to clear or not. Might be close.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

CCS86 said:


> I have considered this too. I think it is possible, but you don't want that wire coming loose.
> 
> Honestly, a blob of hot glue on the main chamber side of each port could do the trick with minimal risk.
> 
> I ordered one of these to have on hand for potential negative chamber filling: https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/products/rockshox-bar-air-valve-assembly?variant=30994106693


I was thinking that the main chamber side of that port would be in dead space, but unfortunately the air piston slides ride past it (and covers the transfer port at ~95% compression). That means anything you'd put in there couldn't stick out at all. I think the only way to properly block those holes would be with a grub screw inserted from the back side and it would have to stand up to 300ish psi. It's somewhere around a 1mm hole, which gets into screws and taps that I don't have.

On the positive side, i noticed that there's like 3-4cc of dead space milled out of the end of the reservoir end of the shock. I have some liquid polyurethane I could drizzle in there.


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## trikwires (Nov 13, 2020)

I asked Manitou to confirm the outermost point on a 210x55 Mara Pro reservoir. Since this was the spot where it was 3mm too long and would hit my Trek Fuel downtube I could not use one if they were not any shorter.

I mentioned that what I have seen is 125mm down from eyelet center and 61mm out from shock centerline to the outer reservoir corner.

They came back with this email. Not sure it jives with what was mentioned a couple days down in this thread.

The reservoir sizes are 85mm (Stock) and 70mm.

The 125mm measurement at bottomout is accurate for that size with the stock reservoir, so 110mm would be the short measurement.

We can sell you a shock direct with the short reservoir if you need it and are interested. Pricing is as listed on the website. Let me know if you're interested!

-Zac @ Manitou


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Hey Zac at Manitou, can I get a short reservoir and standard can on a Mara Pro? 

If anyone asks them that, let us know what they say.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

trikwires said:


> I asked Manitou to confirm the outermost point on a 210x55 Mara Pro reservoir. Since this was the spot where it was 3mm too long and would hit my Trek Fuel downtube I could not use one if they were not any shorter.
> 
> I mentioned that what I have seen is 125mm down from eyelet center and 61mm out from shock centerline to the outer reservoir corner.
> 
> ...


Samsonite! He was way off!

The 125mm is from the top eyelet. It does not change based on shock stroke. The measurements are 125mm (short) and 140mm (long). For some reason he did math and assumed you had a long reservoir for some reason. Makes no sense when the information is on the sheet right in front of him. 110mm is not listed anywhere for any shock size.

The 85/70mm measurements are the length of the reservoirs when they are not attached. It's irrelevant information.

The 210x55 comes stock with the short reservoir. 125mm down from the center of the eyelet. 60mm out from the center is how far it sticks out (width wise)

Center of shock body eyelet to lowest point of the reservoir is 29.6mm at full bottom out on a 210x55. That is measured with the IFP valve cover in place. (You can gain a little extra room with it removed and a normal cover is used, assuming only the corner will touch the frame like in vertical shock applications)

I will see if I can get a consumer level data sheet with this information and post it. (My copy is not consumer level, it's from engineering) The long reservoir on these shocks does make fitments a possible issue, so there should be one available.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Mullen, if you could check about IFP minimum insertion depth, or at least a maximum IFP chamber pressure, that would be awesome.

I could probably figure out the minimum insertion depth, by setting to avoid interference at bottom of stroke. Then with approximate IFP air volumes at top and bottom of stroke, figure out maximum pressure for various set points. 

Maybe a lower IFP pressure and shallower insertion could help further the goal of more sag and more bottom-out support. Is there a practical minimum IFP pressure to avoid seal instability?


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## trikwires (Nov 13, 2020)

Just got a correction to the info from Zac @ Manitou:











*Zac Smith* (Hayes Performance Systems) 
Nov 16, 2020, 17:24 EST 
CORRECTION-

Apparently (Late info) that size already comes with the short reservoir installed. So it is 125mm only. Sorry for the confusion.


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## ipadl (Jun 6, 2008)

Just a note that my Mara Pro (200x56) came with a 70mm reservoir measure from where it threads into the shock head and without the cap installed.

Memory is that shorter shocks have the smaller reservoir.









Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

I just received the same shock and the reservoir has the same measurement.



ipadl said:


> Just a note that my Mara Pro (200x56) came with a 70mm reservoir measure from where it threads into the shock head and without the cap installed.
> 
> Memory is that shorter shocks have the smaller reservoir.
> 
> ...


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I got my standard air can in the mail this afternoon. It was a busy day so I haven't had time to give it a proper test ride, but initial impression is that it's definitely not going to be _too_ progressive for my bike, which was my biggest concern.

140psi (same as I used on the king can) gives me 14mm of sag on my 210x55 shock, about 25%. Running it into and off of the curb outside my house used up 37mm of travel (67%).

For the record I'm currently 2 turns out on HSC from full closed and right in the middle on the LSC. Those settings are carryovers from the king can, and might change for the standard can.

The standard can also doesn't look dorky, which was another concern. I should have waited to put the stickers on until after it was threaded though, since there's no longer an outer sleeve that I can infinitely rotate.









I'll ride it for a week and then post up. So far, seems good.

BTW -- definitely no extra material on this for a negative spring port. It's just a thin tube from start to finish.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I really like the look of the standard can. Looks svelte. 

Per your previous posts, you were running 150psi with the King Can stuffed full of spacers getting about 25% sag. 

Now you're running 140psi and getting 25% sag. Should result in increased progression. 

Does the standard can allow for any additional volume reduction? Seems like some folks tried to create the "up above the jam nut" style spacers ala Rockshox, but they came loose. Dougal suggests grease. Any more developments on that topic?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> definitely no extra material on this for a negative spring port. It's just a thin tube from start to finish.


Still, having no outer sleeve potentially allows to come in purely radially, and maybe add extra material with a steel epoxy boss.

How much did it cost?


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

PHeller said:


> I really like the look of the standard can. Looks svelte.
> 
> Per your previous posts, you were running 150psi with the King Can stuffed full of spacers getting about 25% sag.
> 
> ...


In the past I've tried a bunch of different pressures, but even with the King Can I had settled on 140psi. 150psi kept me out of trouble for bottoming with the king can, but I was sitting at 20% sag and I don't like the way my rear suspension rides with that little sag.

There is no additional volume reduction available on the standard can. It has no ports and no chambers, just a straight tube with some seals on one end.



CCS86 said:


> Still, having no outer sleeve potentially allows to come in purely radially, and maybe add extra material with a steel epoxy boss.
> 
> How much did it cost?


I ordered it straight off the Hayes site for the full MSRP ($90 + shipping). https://hayesbicycle.com/collections/manitou/products/maraproaircan_z

I searched on the part number and wasn't able to find anyone else stocking it. I think that's a lot of money for what it is. You could definitely save some money by just filling your king can with epoxy or liquid polyurethane. I just didn't want to mess with it.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

As far as volume reducers are concerned for the standard can, they would need to be designed to work similarly to the Fox DPS and Rockshox Deluxe volume reducers, that is, sitting up inside the top body. 

I'm sure CCS86 could print something pretty quick. 

Although I'd be interested to hear if we risk a case of the compression ratio being too high.


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## spokeywheeler (Dec 1, 2006)

Finally got my first ride on the Mara Pro on my V2 Ripmo after almost a month off the bike. Overall I am very impressed. Obviously much more ride time will be needed to get a good idea of how it performs vs. other shocks I have run in the past.

After some initial setup and fiddling trailside I ended up with 170psi, rebound 8 from closed, HSC 3 from open, LSC 16 from closed. I am 190 kitted and I am running the 3 stock volume spacers with an additional 2 rockshocks bands in the outer air can which is set at the middle oring position. 170psi gives me about 28% sag and after some high speed hard compressions I still had about 6mm of stroke left, which is probably about good since I didn't hit anything too big.

Seems like my pressure is a bit higher than others but that may be because I am running very little LSC, so I may try reducing air pressure and adding LSC. The small bump compliance is amazing like this though so I may just leave it. It felt great climbing and descending. Work mode is very firm and I will probably reserve it mostly for paved/very smooth fire road climbs.

I also like how quiet the shock was and absence of the notchy equalization dimple like most other shocks have. Can't wait to get some more miles on it and dial it in more but very happy so far.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I did a quick 8 mile lunch ride on the trail out my front door. This is definitely the right air can for me. 

The trail i rode has a lippy 2' vertical huck-to-flat that you come into pretty fast (giving you about 4-5' of horizontal) that I've been using as a constant. On that drop I used 47 of my 55mm of travel, or 85% with the standard can. 

With the king can at the same pressure, with a full-size 1.5mm plastic strip in the half chamber, I was using just about all of the travel on it minus the bottom-out bumper. (Note that there's more room for a thicker strip, like 2.5mm maybe?)

Based on other suspension setups I've had, that 85% is about perfect for me. Plenty of room to take it off the 4-5' stuff at the local bike park, plus a little extra for those days when I pick the wrong line. 

I can definitely feel the progression a lot more now, and I opened up the HSC a few clicks to compensate. 

Shockwiz shows 4.2:1 compression ratio :eekster: I didn't do the whole ride with the wiz but I'll take it out on the next ride. For what i did ride with it, it showed all green for air pressure and progression, suggested another -1 HSC and +1 LSC. Pretty much nailed it right out the gate.

For posterity: Ripmo v1 (145mm, not very progressive suspension curve, i.e. no coils), 175lbs wet, 140psi in the rear shock puts me at about 30% sag while riding according to the shockwiz.

Edit: rode again today on a more typical ride. Shockwiz had me pull out 10psi. Much more supple end stroke but still plenty of unused travel. HSC and rebound are right in the middle. Feels great!


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## arno_schmidt (Nov 4, 2020)

I just installed my Mara Pro and and am surprised that the piggyback can just touches my frame when bottoming out. Size is 210x55. I heard that there are 2 different sizes available for the piggyback can. What are the sizes exactly and where can I order them?
Thanks for your help!


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## trikwires (Nov 13, 2020)

@arno...
Gotta read at least the last page of this thread and you will see the answers to your question confirmed. Your 55mm stroke metric shock will have the short reservoir already so you are kinda screwed. 

I was concerned with this on my Trek Fuel and carefully measured only to find that I cannot fit it. I will need to purchase a Mara Inline and it sounds like you will too.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

arno_schmidt said:


> I just installed my Mara Pro and and am surprised that the piggyback can just touches my frame when bottoming out. Size is 210x55. I heard that there are 2 different sizes available for the piggyback can. What are the sizes exactly and where can I order them?
> Thanks for your help!


If your Mara already has the short reservoir, you might be able to buy a tiny bit of clearance with offset bushings, what frame is it?


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

As I tried propositioning him to buy his shock, I'll answer on his behalf: he can still return the shock for a full refund.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> Shockwiz shows 4.2:1 compression ratio :eekster:


That seems crazy high. Curious if that value repeats.

I just had mine apart to check bleed and model some more of the internal volume for volume spacer design. I went ahead and added some more grease onto the top of the air piston (not measured in any way). Outer can is still packed full of custom spacers and grease, so I think it is (within margin of error) the same volume as a standard can, further reduced by the grease on the air piston.

I re-checked my CR, and found that last grease application took it from 3.39 to 3.61. A modest 6.5% change.

After riding with it at 125psi (down from 137-142ish), I stayed off the bottom with some pretty big flat landings. I might be pretty close to ideal now. Sag was at 22% (still on the lower side), but I have some room to reduce air pressure at this CR.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I'll check the CR with the wiz again in the next few days. 

I did a ride yesterday with 3700ft. of climbing/descending. I'm down about 15psi (~125psi) from where I was and still only using about 90% travel, though no big drops on this trail. The shock feels extremely good but I do think it might be a tiny bit too progressive. Shockwiz is claiming 35% sag so I should probably add a few psi. 

I'll mess with it more over the winter, possibly put some thicker bands in my king can, and maybe add some grease to see if I can come to a happy medium. It's definitely not bad where it is. I'm going to spend some time getting my Mezzer working a little better and once the fork is outperforming the shock i'll get back to it. At least I'm not bouncing off the bumpers any more...


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Can we talk a bit more about the Pros and Cons of running a standard can, if in fact we need it in order to achieve added progression? 

Obviously, we'll be denied the ability to use tokens to adjust the positive pressure chamber, but also do we also lose positive volume? Or is that handled separately in these shocks?

It sounds like the King Can could in theory made be made to the volume of the standard can, but it'll require a lot of volume reducers and grease.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PHeller said:


> Can we talk a bit more about the Pros and Cons of running a standard can, if in fact we need it in order to achieve added progression?
> 
> Obviously, we'll be denied the ability to use tokens to adjust the positive pressure chamber, but also do we also lose positive volume? Or is that handled separately in these shocks?
> 
> It sounds like the King Can could in theory made be made to the volume of the standard can, but it'll require a lot of volume reducers and grease.


Standard can with lower volume gives you a higher spring-rate and more progression. 
King Can with higher volume gives you a lower spring rate and less progression.

Sag wise, if you get the spring-rate you want (mid-stroke) and sag is too much then you need to increase volume and increase pressure.
If you get the spring-rate you want (mid-stroke) and sag is too little then you need to reduce volume and reduce pressure.


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

Does anybody know the width of the Air Can? Trying to make sure I have the tools to perform a 50 hour service but

142-37512-K033 (Wrench) costs 75$ <-- WTF (BF Sale Too)
and who knows how much that 172-32193-K001 (Air Can Seal Tool) costs..

Any alternatives? I don't have a 3D printer. I'm assuming I can find a non-marring adjustable wrench somewhere.


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## johnsogr (May 31, 2009)

Great sale, can I convert the 190 x 40 to 190 x 45 without issue at home? 190 x 45 sold out...


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

funks said:


> Does anybody know the width of the Air Can? Trying to make sure I have the tools to perform a 50 hour service but
> 
> 142-37512-K033 (Wrench) costs 75$ <-- WTF (BF Sale Too)
> and who knows how much that 172-32193-K001 (Air Can Seal Tool) costs..
> ...


It's just a 1.5" hex head. You could clamp the air can in a soft jawed vice and put a screwdriver through the mount. Or buy a crescent wrench that will open up enough at harbor freight. I happen to have a 1.5" wrench so I used that and it didn't leave any marks.

It's not worth spending a lot of money on.

Be sure you compress the shock as you get to the end of the air can threads, otherwise the negative pressure will blow the can off and potentially damage the threads.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

After more riding, I'm sticking with the standard air can. I was going to mess with the king can some more but I can't imagine needing any less progression. At 30% sag it uses what I consider an appropriate amount of travel in all situations and I haven't found bottom on it yet (though I'm getting very close). All my compression and rebound settings are right in the middle, which makes me feel like I'm on the right track.

Rode one of the local nasty dh trails last night and it performed flawlessly: (not my video, but you can see what I'm up against)


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

I just bought a new revel rail frame that will come with a rockshox super deluxe ultimate.

Looks like the mara pro is a step up above the super deluxe in terms of performance. So I am thinking of upgrading the shock to the Mara Pro.

The revel rail sideloads the shock and apparently it's something that needs to be taken into account with shock choice. Would the Mara be able to handle this?

My plan was to ride the super deluxe and if I felt like it was underperforming to send it off to vorsprung for a tractive tune. Selling off the super deluxe and buying the Mara pro would be a bit cheaper but not so much that I wouldn't be interested in the best performing solution.

Does the mara tuneability and lower friction beat out the custom tuned super deluxe?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

The Mara crushes the Super Deluxe out of the box.

No idea how durable it is against side loading.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

jmvar said:


> I just bought a new revel rail frame that will come with a rockshox super deluxe ultimate.
> 
> Looks like the mara pro is a step up above the super deluxe in terms of performance. So I am thinking of upgrading the shock to the Mara Pro.
> 
> ...


Tractive is a game changer.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jmvar said:


> I just bought a new revel rail frame that will come with a rockshox super deluxe ultimate.
> 
> Looks like the mara pro is a step up above the super deluxe in terms of performance. So I am thinking of upgrading the shock to the Mara Pro.
> 
> ...


I don't see anything in the Revel rail frame that would add side-load. The yoke, if its free pivot, should remove side-load effects.

I haven't been able to compare a tractive vs Mara on the same bike. But I might have the chance later this summer. My new bike frame came with a Super Deluxe coil and will get a Mara Pro. I'm still waiting on parts (thanks 2020).

The Tractive tunes are very good (pretty much necessary IMO) but none of the Super Deluxes have HSC adjustment and only some have useful LSC adjustment. The Mara has both those and a working climb-switch.
The friction difference is also enormous.

Like the Fractive fork kits, the Tractive shock tuning kits make such a big difference to normal riders because the stock tune is so far off. The Mara stock tune is for me ideal. 
If you are a long way from the standard rider size or application. Then custom tuning is still on the menu.


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> I don't see anything in the Revel rail frame that would add side-load. The yoke, if its free pivot, should remove side-load effects.
> 
> I haven't been able to compare a tractive vs Mara on the same bike. But I might have the chance later this summer. My new bike frame came with a Super Deluxe coil and will get a Mara Pro. I'm still waiting on parts (thanks 2020).
> 
> ...


I am 155lbs. before kitted up so I am not outside of the designed rider weight. I don't know what the leverage curve is for the revel rail but I don't think it's too abnormal.

Right now there are no 230x65mm Mara pros, but I see that there are 230x60mm ones available on the Manitou website.

Is this just a stroke limiting spacer I can take out? I wouldn't mind opening up the shock and taking the spacer out to make the stroke length I need.

I can't find a spare parts catalog for Manitou products like SRAM/Rockshox has where I would be able to see if all the part #'s are the same for different stroke shocks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jmvar said:


> I am 155lbs. before kitted up so I am not outside of the designed rider weight. I don't know what the leverage curve is for the revel rail but I don't think it's too abnormal.
> 
> Right now there are no 230x65mm Mara pros, but I see that there are 230x60mm ones available on the Manitou website.
> 
> ...


Yes it's just a 5mm spacer on the shaft under the bottom-out bumper. Every maker of metric shocks is making them at max stroke and installing spacers to create shorter stroke versions. Four basic frame sizes (230x65, 210x55, 190x45, 170x35mm) and Trunnion shock heads make them 25mm shorter.

Manitou don't have a parts catalogue like SRAM does. Probably because it's an insane amount of work to keep up with. SRAM likely has 4 people on that full-time.


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## B. Rock (Mar 9, 2011)

So looking at the pressures folks are running vs body weight, is it safe to say this is a fairly large air volume shock? I.e. not super progressive through its travel? I have an X2 that just doesn't feel great (stiff/non compliant over small bumps mainly), and while a prog coil spring might do the trick I'm not overly stoked to have a 950g shock on the bike. My frame is already ~19% progressive so I don't need a ton of extra support later in travel, but a little ramp is definitely needed for any kind of pop or playfulness.


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## jakalwil (Nov 24, 2020)

Just to double-check - the volume bands you guys are using are the Rockshox “bottomless rings” and they go on just like they would an RS shock?


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

I think so.

I have ridden a 2018 Float X2 on my Mojo 4 HD and I currently have a Mara Pro on there.

I'm 185 geared up and running 131 psi in the main can, piggyback at 300 psi, rebound is -5 from full closed, LSC is -15 from full closed, HSC is -3 from full closed.

Pretty much Manitou suggested settings other than the pressure.

Mara Pro is better all around to the point where I don't really think about it being there aside from flipping the Work/Play switch during a ride.

X2 with one spacer works really well on this frame but the Mara Pro has better mid stroke support and while I use full travel I don't get a harsh reminder of that during rides...or any reminder to be honest.

Work/Play switch is much better than X2 climb switch (2018/2019 X2 is what I was running).

I'm going to be selling my Mara Pro/Ibis in a bit and the bike that is replacing is (Warden) is getting a Mara Pro and if the Warden ran the same shock size as the Mojo I would keep the Mara Pro I have on the Mojo for sure.

A bit of a chameleon like a Topaz or X2 really.

The Mara Pro is better at handling janky stuff (vs Topaz). It doesn't feel like you are blowing through your mid-travel too quickly (vs X2) and never wallows (X2 without spacer or spacers), and really good small bump (similar to Topaz, better than X2).

For what you are describing, and the Mojo is a similar sounding frame for progression, the Mara Pro is supportive without being smothering at the end of stroke and sensitive without giving away the store as a result in the mid-stroke like the X2 can be.


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## B. Rock (Mar 9, 2011)

Funny, I just went from a Knolly 4x4 bike to a DW link bike. But thanks for the feedback, I was expecting to be blown away by the X2 but just haven't found it to be what everyone makes it out to be. I'd just as soon run a coil instead of an X2 for the mid stroke support.

That's a lower than body weight pressure in the mara pro, which is a pattern evident throughout this thread. Has to be a good thing for stiction/seals. I'm at about 110% of body weight pressure in the X2 (weigh ~160-165lb, have 180psi in it to meet sag). That alone is appealing.


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Yes it's just a 5mm spacer on the shaft under the bottom-out bumper. Every maker of metric shocks is making them at max stroke and installing spacers to create shorter stroke versions. Four basic frame sizes (230x65, 210x55, 190x45, 170x35mm) and Trunnion shock heads make them 25mm shorter.
> 
> Manitou don't have a parts catalogue like SRAM does. Probably because it's an insane amount of work to keep up with. SRAM likely has 4 people on that full-time.


Great, so to pull that spacer looking at the service manual it looks like I would just need 12 mm shaft clamp for my vise, 30mm wrench to unthread the air can.

Would I need to check the IFP depth if I don't move the shaft after depressurizing the reservoir?

Winter riding is upon us and that means ~0 deg Cel. temps. Manitou suggests 3wt oil for "cold weather" but that term is subjective. Would 0 deg. Cel. call for 3 wt oil vs the 5 wt oil they use?

Thanks for all of your help.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

I was running around 210 psi on the X2 to get 28% sag roughly so that sounds about right.

I ran the X2 for a little while on an Evil Insurgent which is a more progressive DW Link and it was fine there too.

My opinion, and it is just that, is that the X2, 36 Grip2, etc aren't garbage by a long shot but they have so much hype behind them and the reality is a bit underwhelming compared to the hype and hyperbole...the whole 'Fox/SRAM totally redid the 2027 wunderbluss with new blabbity honky wonks and a redesigned flippity flap for 2.3% more 35% better unicorn tears'...

That whole ecosystem kind of becomes a thing like the devil you know and the yardstick to compare everything against even if the everything is a Coke vs Pepsi type deal and it isn't a binary ecosystem really.

Myopians are going to myope I guess but there are definitely other options that kick mucho ass if one is willing to go seek them out and give them a shot.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jmvar said:


> Great, so to pull that spacer looking at the service manual it looks like I would just need 12 mm shaft clamp for my vise, 30mm wrench to unthread the air can.
> 
> Would I need to check the IFP depth if I don't move the shaft after depressurizing the reservoir?
> 
> ...


I've ridden my Mara Pro plenty at 0C and not noticed a problem. It is still running the Maxima 5wt blue oil. Manitou switch to the Maxima 3wt clear for -15C spec in the Mastodon forks.

But for oil reference.
Maxima 5wt blue from 40C to 0C thickens up ~5.9x
Motorex 2.5wt thickens up 5.4x
Maxima 3wt syn red thickens up 3.7x
Maxima 3wt syn clear thickens up 5.4x
Shockcraft Hot Oil Pink thickens up 3.1x.

What is really interesting is the oil viscosity isn't linear on the way down. Of those oils the Hot Oil Pink and the Motorex 2.5wt have the lowest pour points (sub -60C) and thicken up less below zero.
Maxima 3wt clear synthetic is -57C.
Maxima 3wt red is -40C but I know someone who made it turn solid in cold weather testing.


----------



## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

silentG said:


> Myopians are going to myope I guess but there are definitely other options that kick mucho ass if one is willing to go seek them out and give them a shot.


It's the worst things about the forums, people can only compare their best and worst experiences. If all you've ridden is a Walmart bike, then a Suntour XC32 on a $500 REI bike is going to feel like an amazing fork. I thought my MRP Ribbon was the **** until I got on a GRIP2 36, and I thought that was amazing until I got my Mezzer...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ungod said:


> It's the worst things about the forums, people can only compare their best and worst experiences. If all you've ridden is a Walmart bike, then a Suntour XC32 on a $500 REI bike is going to feel like an amazing fork. I thought my MRP Ribbon was the **** until I got on a GRIP2 36, and I thought that was amazing until I got my Mezzer...


It felt like a parallel universe in 2015 when all these clowns were raving about the Pike charger 1.


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## meSSican (Aug 8, 2010)

Needing a 205x62.5 shock and wondering what is needed to reduce the Mara Pro from 205x65 and is it easy enough to do with basic tools.
Thanks


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> I've ridden my Mara Pro plenty at 0C and not noticed a problem. It is still running the Maxima 5wt blue oil. Manitou switch to the Maxima 3wt clear for -15C spec in the Mastodon forks.
> 
> But for oil reference.
> Maxima 5wt blue from 40C to 0C thickens up ~5.9x
> ...


Is this the correct fluid?

https://maximausa.com/i-30497920-racing-fork-fluid-liter-33-8oz-5wt.html#!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

meSSican said:


> Needing a 205x62.5 shock and wondering what is needed to reduce the Mara Pro from 205x65 and is it easy enough to do with basic tools.
> Thanks


Depressurise the shock, remove the air-can, remove the shock body, take the piston and shims off, remove the seal-head. Install 2.5mm spacer, reinstall everything and rebleed.

Or. Just check the frame has clearance to run 65mm stroke.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jmvar said:


> Is this the correct fluid?
> 
> https://maximausa.com/i-30497920-racing-fork-fluid-liter-33-8oz-5wt.html#!


That's pretty much the stock fluid. Stock stuff is slightly green in colour but that may just be OEM drums vs aftermarket bottle identification.


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## SuperWookie (Feb 5, 2020)

Does anyone know if I can get a Mara Pro for my Megatower? It takes a 230 x 57.5 sized shock, and I just went to the Manitou website (Hayes) and don't see that size.

Is it just out of stock?

Do they even make that size?

And can I use another size that will work with the Mega?

Thanks


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

SuperWookie said:


> Does anyone know if I can get a Mara Pro for my Megatower? It takes a 230 x 57.5 sized shock, and I just went to the Manitou website (Hayes) and don't see that size.
> 
> Is it just out of stock?
> 
> ...


230x57.5mm is a 230x65 with a 7.5mm spacer in it. I don't know if the Megatower can fit a Mara with 230x60mm. Hayes may be able to confirm for you.

If you can't, then they may be able to custom build you a shock to that stroke. Any good suspension shop can fit or remove travel spacers. I do but you're probably on the other side of the planet.


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## SuperWookie (Feb 5, 2020)

Dougal said:


> 230x57.5mm is a 230x65 with a 7.5mm spacer in it. I don't know if the Megatower can fit a Mara with 230x60mm. Hayes may be able to confirm for you.
> 
> If you can't, then they may be able to custom build you a shock to that stroke. Any good suspension shop can fit or remove travel spacers. I do but you're probably on the other side of the planet.


I emailed Hayes/Manitou as well as Santa Cruz about this. To see if the bike can even fit the Mara Pro. Maybe with the smaller reservoir it will? Fingers crossed.

Edit: Manitou responded to my email and has no idea if their shock fits the Megatower. So that was a bust. Hopefully SC knows

Thanks


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## ragdasik (Aug 10, 2019)

Hi all. So it appears like the negative pressure in the Mara isn't adjustable, but what does this mean for a light rider on a low leverage bike? Will there be some preload or forced sag? And does this shock rely on a higher starting LR to make things smooth?
For reference I'm 65kg/143lbs ready to ride and my bike's LR curve looks like this:








Should add its 160mm from 65mm stroke.


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

Hey Team.. just finished reading through the 24 pages. Some interesting stuff thanks for all the effort.
I'm not yet an owner of a mara, but am seriously contemplating it.

In a video online in which the shock is introduced, I found the option of custom tuning the shim stacks really interesting. However in the forum there hasn't been much talk about the shim stacks and what can be done with them. Is there a reason you guys haven't really discussed them?


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

I also find it curious that manitou didn't fit a hydraulic bottom out to this shock (like the one from the EXT shock, who interestingly don't have it on their fork?)..
Seems the hydraulic bottom out would have really solved a major weakness of the mara


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## jakalwil (Nov 24, 2020)

Leefr said:


> Hey Team.. just finished reading through the 24 pages. Some interesting stuff thanks for all the effort.
> I'm not yet an owner of a mara, but am seriously contemplating it.
> 
> In a video online in which the shock is introduced, I found the option of custom tuning the shim stacks really interesting. However in the forum there hasn't been much talk about the shim stacks and what can be done with them. Is there a reason you guys haven't really discussed them?


I ran into the same issue when researching the shock. No additional shims are included, so tuning would require a set of custom precision-machined shims and some decent knowhow to set them up for your specific weight/riding. Since that's pretty complicated, and it's a relatively new shock, I couldn't find anyone who had started playing with custom shims yet.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Shim tuning can be done on any of the current fork or shocks of any brand. Manitou just makes it a little more public. You probably haven't heard any one tune a mara because it is pretty damn good out of the box and people have found they don't need to. The adjustments on the mara cover a wide range of tunes further negating the need to do a custom tune. The shims can be bought from many places online and around maybe $1 each. They are not something that comes with the suspension. Manitou used to sell a shim kit but I don't think they do now. It came with 8mm id shims for abs+.

So yes you can shim tune a Mara but no one has found the need to... Yet









Evolution Training Cycles


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> You can try to use the port on the seal-head. But the one on the bottom of the damper body is better. It's a standard M5 like a lot of brakes and seat-posts.
> 
> Labelling is all good.
> 
> ...


Does this mean that if I get the correct eye to eye spacers (presumably the white plastic spacers) and the correct stroke spacers, I can run my 230x60 mara pro on a 210x55 frame?

Can I build a 210x55 shock from a 230x60 shock?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Others (including me) have run setups like notched cans, external valves to set pos/neg balance etc.
> 
> All it can really cost you is a few air-cans!


Have you successfully mounted an external negative valve on a Mara Pro?

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

RE: easy access shim tuning, its kind of ironic that the shock has it but doesn't really need it.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Leefr said:


> I also find it curious that manitou didn't fit a hydraulic bottom out to this shock (like the one from the EXT shock, who interestingly don't have it on their fork?)..
> Seems the hydraulic bottom out would have really solved a major weakness of the mara


The Mara has a weakness?

The only one that comes to mind is availability

I've never had a bottom out issue with either of my Mara Pro.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Leefr said:


> Hey Team.. just finished reading through the 24 pages. Some interesting stuff thanks for all the effort.
> I'm not yet an owner of a mara, but am seriously contemplating it.
> 
> In a video online in which the shock is introduced, I found the option of custom tuning the shim stacks really interesting. However in the forum there hasn't been much talk about the shim stacks and what can be done with them. Is there a reason you guys haven't really discussed them?


Most shocks that need custom valving need it to fix a shortcoming of the original design or tuning. What Manitou acheived with the Mara Pro damper is both a base-tune that suits the majority of riders quite well and HSC/LSC/LSR adjusters that provide the range people need.

If you can get it to ride exactly how you like by turning a few knobs then there's no need to change stacks.



Leefr said:


> I also find it curious that manitou didn't fit a hydraulic bottom out to this shock (like the one from the EXT shock, who interestingly don't have it on their fork?)..
> Seems the hydraulic bottom out would have really solved a major weakness of the mara


Who needs hydraulic bottom-out in an air shock? Almost all air shocks bottom-out so little that a simple o-ring is used as the bottom-out bumper. Without any issues. I get full travel on my Mara Pro but I've never felt a hard bottom-out from it. Forks are a lot more sensitive to that.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Who needs hydraulic bottom-out in an air shock? Almost all air shocks bottom-out so little that a simple o-ring is used as the bottom-out bumper. Without any issues. I get full travel on my Mara Pro but I've never felt a hard bottom-out from it. Forks are a lot more sensitive to that.


?‍♂

What makes shocks less demanding for bottom-out protection, in your opinion? In my eyes, they could benefit at least as much as a fork, if not more, because of the rider's rearward weight bias.

I think you are a lot less likely to feel a shock bottom-out event as harsh/hard, by nature of the linkage driven actuation. There are so many flexible components in the load path, all taking some of the abuse and softening the perceived impact. It's still abusive to the components though and worth avoiding IMO.

Despite having a fairly progressive frame, I have had to fill the outer can *and* add a fair bit of grease inside the main chamber to get enough CR to balance having enough sag and enough BO protection. I would pay for an add-on HBO without a second thought. Conceptually, I think it is just a great idea. If you ever arrive to the last portion of shock travel, with a bit of velocity, using selective damping to blow-off that energy, as opposed to storing and releasing, goes a long way to keeping composure in a difficult situation.


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

Regarding HBO- I guess I misunderstood the discussion and problem solving around bottoming out issues, increasing Compression Ratio and the implications of the negative spring, to be pointing to potentially, if not weakness, a natural outer limit of awesome shock performance. 

Being a relative beginner in all things suspension, I guess I just thought that if manitou has a HBO on their fork, they could just slap one on the shock as well. But if it's not needed, then it's all good. 

I just got a Mezzer by the way, am pretty keen to get out for a spin. I'll probably buy a mara pro too, eventually.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> 🙋‍♂️
> 
> What makes shocks less demanding for bottom-out protection, in your opinion? In my eyes, they could benefit at least as much as a fork, if not more, because of the rider's rearward weight bias.
> 
> ...


It's being able to tailor progression in a way that you can't with coils.

We see very few air shocks in service with worn bottom-out bumpers and it is usually models with little compression damping. Where coil shocks the bumper is usually been worked and the end-cap polished.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Wut he ^ said 👍


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> It's being able to tailor progression in a way that you can't with coils.
> 
> We see very few air shocks in service with worn bottom-out bumpers and it is usually models with little compression damping. Where coil shocks the bumper is usually been worked and the end-cap polished.


I thought we were talking about shock versus fork, not air versus coil. Even with the stellar spring curve tuning available on the Mezzer, with IRT, the HBO function is really nice to have. I really think it would complete the Mara.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## spo0n (Nov 7, 2020)

Deleted- wrong thread


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

Would like to hear some thoughts on if you'd use a Mara Pro trunnion on a frame design (Banshee Prime V3) that would maybe make air can resets a bit of a PITA because of the shock location (and dealing with trunnion mount).

Also asking because I live at 9,000 ft and often drive somewhere that is 2,000 ft lower to ride my bike. I feel like my Mcleod got more sensitive to altitude changes when I put a king can on it. Not completely sure if it really did or it was my imagination. Seemed like I needed to add some rebound damping to slow it down when I went down in altitude.

Ideally it would be nice to be able to keep the shock on the bike when resetting- since its nice to be able to use the suspension to start re-threading the air can.

Am I overthinking this?- I've never reset my air can for a day of riding, like I said just add a little rebound damp to slow it down.

Also - I have zero experience with trunnion mounts. How burly are the Mara mounts? Sounds like lot of the suspension gurus hate them because it has a lot of possibility of destruction if a bolt comes loose, etc. When considering the Banshee I take comfort that at least their design seems pretty bomber as far as keeping unwanted twisting, etc from getting to the shock.

Thanks!

Here's a pic of the Banshee V3 "shock cage" - of course a Mara would be mounted with the air can on the top:


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

aaronka970 said:


> Would like to hear some thoughts on if you'd use a Mara Pro trunnion on a frame design (Banshee Prime V3) that would maybe make air can resets a bit of a PITA because of the shock location (and dealing with trunnion mount).
> 
> Also asking because I live at 9,000 ft and often drive somewhere that is 2,000 ft lower to ride my bike. I feel like my Mcleod got more sensitive to altitude changes when I put a king can on it. Not completely sure if it really did or it was my imagination. Seemed like I needed to add some rebound damping to slow it down when I went down in altitude.
> 
> ...


You can't mount a trunnion upside down. They only go in one way. I'm not a fan of trunnion but my new bike has it. The mounts are all robust.
With improvements in surface finish the reset intervals have stretched out a lot. On my last bike (216x63mm Mara Pro) I only reset the air can twice in 14 months.

Normally altitude effects make suspension firmer up higher and softer down lower. It may have been more temperature change impacting you.


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

Thanks Dougal!
That’s what I needed to hear.


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## ramdm (Apr 25, 2014)

forgive my ignorance but what is a can reset and why should it be necessary?

Thanks

Enviado desde mi Redmi 5 Plus mediante Tapatalk


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ramdm said:


> forgive my ignorance but what is a can reset and why should it be necessary?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Enviado desde mi Redmi 5 Plus mediante Tapatalk


You just need to remove and reinstall the air can.

The Mara doesn't have a dimpled, self-equalizing negative chamber. It is brought to pressure by capturing a volume of air when installing the can.

Eventually, that charge will leak down to some degree and doing a can reset can improve off the top sensitivity.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

A two thousand foot change on elevation is not gonna change anything, I gain and lose more than that on a long ride.


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## Mortsnarb (Apr 18, 2012)

SOooo.. thinking of swapping my super deluxe for a mara pro on a V2 Sentinel.. do you guys think the mara is a good fit for the sentinel? So far i dont really have any compliants as the bike is awesome but if there is something better out there lol...


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## Nicklz (Sep 30, 2020)

Has anyone had success in making the Work setting harder? As far as I understand only the pressure affects Work setting and I run mine already at 200psi with ~100kg kitted. Is there an straightforward-to-do shim modification to make it stiffer while pedalling?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Nicklz said:


> Has anyone had success in making the Work setting harder? As far as I understand only the pressure affects Work setting and I run mine already at 200psi with ~100kg kitted. Is there an straightforward-to-do shim modification to make it stiffer while pedalling?


Based on the video I saw, there is a shim stack in the piggyback that controls the platform in the Work setting. Stiffening that stack will increase the platform. I am sure Dougal will chime in, but you could also email Manitou and ask them for a recommendation. I have found them to be very helpful in the past.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes there is a separate shim stack in there for the work mode. You can change it but I haven't.


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

I've just written a request to manitou support for extra info about shim stack tuning on the Mara Pro.

As an end consumer with an interest in tuning, I really think manitou could do more to support this end consumer tunability feature of the mara pro. 

Do you guys know if there is any published material from manitou out there regarding mara pro shim tuning, (parts, diagrams etc)? I haven't found any yet.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Leefr said:


> I've just written a request to manitou support for extra info about shim stack tuning on the Mara Pro.
> 
> As an end consumer with an interest in tuning, I really think manitou could do more to support this end consumer tunability feature of the mara pro.
> 
> Do you guys know if there is any published material from manitou out there regarding mara pro shim tuning, (parts, diagrams etc)? I haven't found any yet.


Very few people are interested in this. I have inquired in the past about shim tuning a fork and Manitou has sent me entire booklet listing different stack combinations with dyno curves as well as shims to do the tuning. No other company does this, or when you ask about it, has an engineer respond. DVO is as close as you get, where Ronnie will go through suggested stacks on the phone and even walk you through it, but you don't get the dyno curves.

Manitou and DVO are also the only companies that if you do have an issue with a product, directly help you with resolving it quickly. Rockshox tells you to go through a dealer and then you wait weeks for them to mail it in and get the product back, hopefully fixed. Fox, good luck, I won't even have them service a fork after having to send a friend's back three times because it had no dampening and they said it was fine. It was only after a shop that had the same problem told me what the issue was and I explicitly pointed it out, they somehow finally were able to find the issue. There is a reason that some of us only use Manitou and/or DVO. This of course doesn't include the unofficial support we get from Dougal.


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

Then I would say, big apologies to manitou. Sounds like they do a great job of supporting individual customers.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Nicklz said:


> Has anyone had success in making the Work setting harder? As far as I understand only the pressure affects Work setting and I run mine already at 200psi with ~100kg kitted. Is there an straightforward-to-do shim modification to make it stiffer while pedalling?


That is a lot of air pressure. If you don't mind me asking, how much sag are you getting? What's the shock installed on? I am 180lbs (81kg), granted a decent amount lighter than you, but running 135psi.


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

+1 on Manitou factory support! I hate that you can't contact RS directly to deal with them.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Just to give you guys an idea of how well the damping in this shock works.

At 0.5 metre per second the LSC adjust has no effect. Only HSC changes what you feel.
At 0.05 metre per second there's a ~25% difference in damping force. They've acheived seperation of the damping adjusters in exactly the speed range you want.

It's difficult to show. But Santa was good to me this year.


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## Th3Bill (Jan 30, 2016)

Just put this on my Pole Evolink 158. Love the Mezzer I have and decided to match it.
Removed Cane Creek coil shock and replaced with Mara Pro...crazy how much better this shock works. 
Was planted on turns, berms, and such but still nice and lively on jumps. 
What a great shock and I did nothing other than install it and set my sag to ~25%. Left the adjusters at the factory defaults. 
Amazing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nicklz (Sep 30, 2020)

ungod said:


> That is a lot of air pressure. If you don't mind me asking, how much sag are you getting? What's the shock installed on? I am 180lbs (81kg), granted a decent amount lighter than you, but running 135psi.


Just checked and after Christmas in winter clothing I'm closer to 105kg. Bike is an XL 2019 Stumpjumper Alloy and comes to 25% Sag (measured by just sitting on the bike with feet off as this is easiest reproducible). Still feels very soft though and I am generally very happy.
Other settings (if I'm counting the right way round) is: LSC 9, HSC 2 clicks from open. Rebound 3 clicks from closed. 300psi in the small chamber and 8 Rockshox bands installed. I use nearly all the travel on my hometrails which are not rougher than S2.


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## pedantic (Sep 3, 2018)

I just purchased a 210x50 Mara Pro for my Yeti sb130. I will be converting to 210x55. Hayes informed me that the 210x55 would not be restocked till June! Anyway, I'm curious about the bleed process. I do have the manual. However, I would welcome a video of the process if anyone can point to one. It would be helpful for me to watch the process.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Nicklz said:


> Just checked and after Christmas in winter clothing I'm closer to 105kg. Bike is an XL 2019 Stumpjumper Alloy and comes to 25% Sag (measured by just sitting on the bike with feet off as this is easiest reproducible). Still feels very soft though and I am generally very happy.
> Other settings (if I'm counting the right way round) is: LSC 9, HSC 2 clicks from open. Rebound 3 clicks from closed. 300psi in the small chamber and 8 Rockshox bands installed. I use nearly all the travel on my hometrails which are not rougher than S2.


If you are unsatisfied, you can write to DZ suspension depending on where you live. He dies great things with Manitou stuff. Besudes he dies the air chamber tuning for a selfequalizing negative chamber with more sensitivity and even more support


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

pedantic said:


> I just purchased a 210x50 Mara Pro for my Yeti sb130. I will be converting to 210x55. Hayes informed me that the 210x55 would not be restocked till June! Anyway, I'm curious about the bleed process. I do have the manual. However, I would welcome a video of the process if anyone can point to one. It would be helpful for me to watch the process.


Bleed process is easy, hook on a syringe, hold it up the top and suck/blow until the shock has the oil and the syringe has the air. Repeat until done. To finish inject 2-3cc more oil than it takes with the IFP slammed/sucked down.

There's a new bleed kit. P/N 141-30694-K020 We have them in stock but no photo yet. It's got two o-ring type syringes, torx driver and 4 different bleed aluminium fittings: Damper Bleed Tool Kit (Manitou) | Shockcraft


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

Anyone running Mara pro on a tallboy4?
does it fit there?

Santa Cruz say "its tight, looks like it may touch and interfere, haven't tested"
Manitou cannot say as they did not test.

am i limited to the inline mara?
Oren


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

My new mara pro arrived today. Upon turning the dials I realised the high speed compression adjuster is really really difficult to rotate. Could something be over tightened from the factory?I can feel 6 positions but it's really hurting my fingers to turn it
Any suggestions to loosen it up? Should I send it back in to the shop?
Low speed compression turns easy, and has 36 clicks, rebound also good with 15 clicks.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Leefr said:


> My new mara pro arrived today. Upon turning the dials I realised the high speed compression adjuster is really really difficult to rotate. Could something be over tightened from the factory?I can feel 6 positions but it's really hurting my fingers to turn it
> Any suggestions to loosen it up? Should I send it back in to the shop?
> Low speed compression turns easy, and has 36 clicks, rebound also good with 15 clicks.


It's typical. Will loosen a little over time.

I 3D printed a knob extension / lever for mine. Makes it way easier.

You can also put a small allen wrench into the radial holes and get some leverage.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

OK thanks for the tip.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

That's my biggest complaint about the Mara. HSC knob is too hard to move. LSC is too easy. Detents on all of them including rebounds are difficult to feel while riding. 

Fortunately this is a "set it and forget it" shock.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Popping the LSC knob off, cleaning it and regreasing the balls and o-rings, makes a big difference in being able to feel the detents.

My add-on HSC knob makes using that adjuster very easy too. Especially since you can see the setting without counting clicks.









Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Popping the LSC knob off, cleaning it and regreasing the balls and o-rings, makes a big difference in being able to feel the detents.
> 
> My add-on HSC knob makes using that adjuster very easy too. Especially since you can see the setting without counting clicks.
> 
> ...


What material are you printing from and what slicer software are you using?


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

once again, nice work!



CCS86 said:


> Popping the LSC knob off, cleaning it and regreasing the balls and o-rings, makes a big difference in being able to feel the detents.
> 
> My add-on HSC knob makes using that adjuster very easy too. Especially since you can see the setting without counting clicks.
> 
> ...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Leefr said:


> My new mara pro arrived today. Upon turning the dials I realised the high speed compression adjuster is really really difficult to rotate. Could something be over tightened from the factory?I can feel 6 positions but it's really hurting my fingers to turn it
> Any suggestions to loosen it up? Should I send it back in to the shop?
> Low speed compression turns easy, and has 36 clicks, rebound also good with 15 clicks.


maybe work on finger strength?

it's tight on all of the Mara Pros, use a small Allen key to turn it like a pin wheel.


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

haven't you noticed, the gyms are all closed. Covid.....



Nurse Ben said:


> maybe work on finger strength?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> What material are you printing from and what slicer software are you using?


I'm a fan of PolyMax PLA for most functional parts.

Used Cura for quite some time, but recently am using SuperSlicer more often, after Cura 4.7 had some gremlins.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

Hehe, yeah finger strength should be ok considering I'm a pen pusher.. 

But seriously it's not a real major issue as HSC is not something I imagine needs to be changed alot. 

However that 3d printed part looks like a really good idea. I'm also interested in the discussion about making a remote actuation mechanism for the work/ party switch.

I have however zero experience with a 3d printer. Would you CCS86 be interested in printing a few HSC dials and shipping them around the world?

Anyone working on a remote lever system for the mara Pro? I know this topic was discussed already here but thought I would ask again.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

I would be interested in a HSC dial if any are made. My knowledge of 3d printing is limited to knowing they exist.


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## ramdm (Apr 25, 2014)

OrenPerets said:


> Anyone running Mara pro on a tallboy4?
> does it fit there?
> 
> Santa Cruz say "its tight, looks like it may touch and interfere, haven't tested"
> ...


Hi

I have just bough and mounted a manitou mara pro on a large bronson 3.

No problem at all. Piggy does not touch the frame nor the linkage

Enviado desde mi Redmi 5 Plus mediante Tapatalk


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

ramdm said:


> Hi
> 
> I have just bough and mounted a manitou mara pro on a large bronson 3.
> 
> ...


Great 

Could you please take a photo showing how it fits in?

And, much more important- how does it complement the (new, lower link) VPP ?

Thx
Oren

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ramdm (Apr 25, 2014)

OrenPerets said:


> Great
> 
> Could you please take a photo showing how it fits in?
> 
> ...






























I can't help you further because I haven't finished assembling it yet.

What am I looking for? Better rebound control, more mid-range support and better compression control.

A friend of mine has the same bike (bronson3). First of all he tryed the RS with MEGNEG can but ended changing to Ohlins because the hydraulics of the RS did not work well.

Another good option is tractive tune for the RS.


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

Hey, just stumbled upon this review of the mara Pro.



You are being redirected...



Seems this author ultimately had problems setting up the shock to get mid stroke support, and held the negative spring responsible. I haven't found detailed info on the leverage curve of the Guerrilla Gravity Gnarvana, so not sure how this influences the situation. Any ideas on alternatives the author could have tried?

Being a heavier rider myself I'm thinking about my own setup. (Haven't yet got around to fitting the mara and testing it yet)

I would have though however that reducing positive air chamber volume would be the way to go, etc, but the author in this review went the other way.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

At 165lbs he's on the lighter end of the spectrum. It would have been interesting to see how the Blister Review might have been different had they put someone at 200lbs or more on the shock.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

That seemed like a pretty reasonable review to me, and I generally like blister for being honest.

I probably would have tried adding some bands to the half can, then dropping the pressure a bit. That's essentially what I had to do to mine. 

The Mara really is a great shock, but it's not quite perfect for my particular application. I'm curious to see if Manitou releases an updated shimstack for it in the future. As is it's miles better than any other shock I've tried, which isn't a ton of them.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Can anyone directly compare the Mara against the Cane Creek Inline Coil?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Leefr said:


> Hey, just stumbled upon this review of the mara Pro.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Two quick comments:

1) In looking at the Guerilla Gravity bikes, one of the consistent comments I see is they are a bit weak in the midstroke support. This appears consistent with the limited leverage curves I have seen, which while progressive, are less so in the first 1/3 of travel than many other bikes (a lot of modern bikes are more progressive in the first third of the the travel, leveling out in the midstroke through final travel, which better complements an air shock over a coil, even if the overall progressivity is the same). As such, this could make any weakness in the Mara midstroke stand out more where it wouldn't on other bikes.

2) Data point of one: When we ran the McLeod on my son's Turner Burner he felt it was weak on the midstroke. I also ran the shock for years and we both switched to DVO Topaz shocks. The DVO Topaz with its tunable negative chamber allows for much greater midstroke support, something my son craves and much preferred. For me, the McLeod felt more baja truck, eating up chatter better, the Topaz more lively. My son was also 60 pounds lighter than me at the time (235 v. 175 pounds) so we were running significantly different pressures (the delta is down to 25 pounds, but he hasn't put on weight). His "new" Ibis HD4 came with a Mara and so far he hasn't complained. On my shakedown ride of it, it felt good, but the leverage curve of the frame very progressive before the sag point, so it doesn't need a shock with a lot of midstroke support. I also only did one ride on it and didn't push it hard.

At the end of the day, like many things, it comes down to matching. Some shocks match some frames better than others. The Guerrilla Gravity is likely a better match for a DVO Topaz, while Mara better for other designs.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Cary said:


> Two quick comments:
> 
> 1) In looking at the Guerilla Gravity bikes, one of the consistent comments I see is they are a bit weak in the midstroke support. This appears consistent with the limited leverage curves I have seen, which while progressive, are less so in the first 1/3 of travel than many other bikes (a lot of modern bikes are more progressive in the first third of the the travel, leveling out in the midstroke through final travel, which better complements an air shock over a coil, even if the overall progressivity is the same). As such, this could make any weakness in the Mara midstroke stand out more where it wouldn't on other bikes.
> 
> ...


You got it wrong, the GG bikes have a regressive curve, so it has more mid stroke support. What this means is you don't want a shock that ramps up quickly, which precludes the use a progressive coil.

Far and above, the Mara Pro has been the very best shock I have used on a GG bike. I used a Mara Pro on a Shred, Pistola, and Mega. I sold my Mara Pro to a buddy who is using it on a Smash and he loves it.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

PHeller said:


> Can anyone directly compare the Mara against the Cane Creek Inline Coil?


Coil is gonna be deader, less poppy, so it really depends on the bike and how you like to ride. I had a CC In line Coil, it's a fine shock, but I'd rather ride a Mara Pro.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

My interest is more in the initial sensitivity. Would you say the Mara is more sensitive even with less sag than other air shocks? Or like the Blister review said, is it a case where the shock likes to move into it's mid-stroke more quickly?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> You got it wrong, the GG bikes have a regressive curve, so it has more mid stroke support. What this means is you don't want a shock that ramps up quickly, which precludes the use a progressive coil.
> 
> Far and above, the Mara Pro has been the very best shock I have used on a GG bike. I used a Mara Pro on a Shred, Pistola, and Mega. I sold my Mara Pro to a buddy who is using it on a Smash and he loves it.


Do you have any support for regressive. That typically only exist on older, non linkage driven single pivots and are coil incompatible. Everything I have seen shows progressive and they market their frames as coil and air compatible. A regressive frame is not coil compatible. The one article I saw said 22% progresivity, which doesn't tell the shape of the curve but is pretty normal for bikes that are coil and air compatible.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Cary said:


> Do you have any support for regressive. That typically only exist on older, non linkage driven single pivots and are coil incompatible. Everything I have seen shows progressive and they market their frames as coil and air compatible. A regressive frame is not coil compatible. The one article I saw said 22% progresivity, which doesn't tell the shape of the curve but is pretty normal for bikes that are coil and air compatible.


Nope, this was the comment a suspension tuner gave me when I was working on tuning my Bomber CR.

I'm not a tuner, all I can speak from is experience. GG bikes don't ride well with a progressive coil, it gives it way too much ramp up so you end up with too much platform and you lose the initial plushness. Changing to a non progressive coil works fine.

GG bikes are known for their pedaling platform and support in the mid stroke, to the point that some folks don't like the firm ride, but for climbing and all around riding, it's a great suspension design.

I found that with some shocks, the ride was overly firm, the Bomber CR Coil never worked for me, the Hazzard worked fine but didn't feel poppy enough, the DPX2 worked okay though it was hard to find a compromise in support and plushness, best so far is the Mara Pro.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> You got it wrong, the GG bikes have a regressive curve, so it has more mid stroke support. What this means is you don't want a shock that ramps up quickly, which precludes the use a progressive coil.
> 
> Far and above, the Mara Pro has been the very best shock I have used on a GG bike. I used a Mara Pro on a Shred, Pistola, and Mega. I sold my Mara Pro to a buddy who is using it on a Smash and he loves it.


You loved the Mara Pro so much that you sold it?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> You got it wrong, the GG bikes have a regressive curve, so it has more mid stroke support. What this means is you don't want a shock that ramps up quickly, which precludes the use a progressive coil.





Nurse Ben said:


> Nope, this was the comment a suspension tuner gave me when I was working on tuning my Bomber CR.


So you are telling someone they are wrong, when they posted actual data of the bike's leverage curve and you just "heard" it was regressive?

Look at the posted leverage ratio curve. If you can't read that, you shouldn't be telling people they are right or wrong.

That chart shows the GG to have have a decreasing leverage ratio, and damn near linear in its decrease. This will give you a progressive wheel rate curve, with around 23% progressivity from the linkage alone.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

PHeller said:


> My interest is more in the initial sensitivity. Would you say the Mara is more sensitive even with less sag than other air shocks? Or like the Blister review said, is it a case where the shock likes to move into it's mid-stroke more quickly?


I don't know what Blister is talking about there.

My only struggle with the Mara Pro has been in getting enough sag for my desired frequency response and bottom-out support. I found a happy place after filling the outer can completely, and adding some extra grease on top of the air piston, to increase compression ratio.

That said, even at really low sag numbers (12-15%), I found the shock to be very sensitive and plush. Not even close to harsh. My former Rockshox Super Deluxe was infinitely more harsh at 30% sag. I attribute this to the Mara's low operating friction (the flexible IFP is key here), and great damper.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Nope, this was the comment a suspension tuner gave me when I was working on tuning my Bomber CR.


I would love to know who the "tuner" is so I can avoid them. If they can't even get if the suspension is rising, falling or linear, correct, how can they tune for it? Note, people not being able to use a progressive coil because of too much ramp up is indicative of a progressive suspension design. Progressive springs are used for designs that don't have enough ramp up (i.e. linear). Coils are incompatible with regressive designs.

Are you sure your tuner wasn't saying he was going to a digressive shim stack, which would lessen dampening for big hits?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Curveball said:


> You loved the Mara Pro so much that you sold it?


No, I had two Mara Pros, one on my Mega Trail and other on my Shred/Pistola.

I sold the Mega Trail and the Mara Pro for that bike.

Gosh you people are cynical.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Cary said:


> I would love to know who the "tuner" is so I can avoid them. If they can't even get if the suspension is rising, falling or linear, correct, how can they tune for it? Note, people not being able to use a progressive coil because of too much ramp up is indicative of a progressive suspension design. Progressive springs are used for designs that don't have enough ramp up (i.e. linear). Coils are incompatible with regressive designs.
> 
> Are you sure your tuner wasn't saying he was going to a digressive shim stack, which would lessen dampening for big hits?


Perhaps, hard to say, I just remember him saying a progressive spring wouldn't work because of "blank".

I didn't believe him so I tried it ... and he was right.

So that's the point I was trying to make, the GG bikes have a very supportive mid stroke.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> No, I had two Mara Pros, one on my Mega Trail and other on my Shred/Pistola.
> 
> I sold the Mega Trail and the Mara Pro for that bike.
> 
> Gosh you people are cynical.


Gotcha! I hope you realize that I was messing with you.


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## Th3Bill (Jan 30, 2016)

PHeller said:


> Can anyone directly compare the Mara against the Cane Creek Inline Coil?


Yep. Just removed a CC Dbinline coil. Being in between coil sizes, I up-sized, which did give a pretty damn good ride, but was lacking in pop.

Mara is just as composed, if not more in corners...great traction, while regaining a bit more punch on jumps.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Perhaps, hard to say, I just remember him saying a progressive spring wouldn't work because of "blank".
> 
> I didn't believe him so I tried it ... and he was right.
> 
> So that's the point I was trying to make, the GG bikes have a very supportive mid stroke.


Except the data does not support your conclusion and it appears your prior statements are simply drawn out of thin air. Here are the leverage and shock curves for the 2020 Smash. As you can see, it is progressive, but a consistent slope. This is a perfectly good rate of progressiveness, but will not provide as strong of midtravel support as if had a steeper curve up to the sag point, then more linear after that point. Likely, they are trying to find that middle ground between working well with an air shock and well with a coil.

GC makes nice bikes and it is good your like yours, but you shouldn't go just making up facts to justify your subjective view.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

PHeller said:


> My interest is more in the initial sensitivity. Would you say the Mara is more sensitive even with less sag than other air shocks? Or like the Blister review said, is it a case where the shock likes to move into it's mid-stroke more quickly?


That wasn't my interpretation of the Blister review. I don't have time to go back and re-read it, but it also doesn't fit my experience, so I'll give my perspective instead:

The shock has excellent small-bump even with excessive air pressure (my interpretation of "initial sensitivity"?). That's probably the SKF IFP. But if I were to nitpick the shock, I do feel like once it's in the mid-stroke there isn't much to keep it from going too deep into the travel. So the initial sensitivity is perfect, the HSC/end stroke is perfect, but the mid-stroke support is a little lacking. If you clamp down on the HSC then it gets harsh, so you can't use it to fix the mid stroke. In my case I switched to the smaller air can and used the air spring to ramp up the mid-stroke, and it's been great.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Curveball said:


> Gotcha! I hope you realize that I was messing with you.


okay, but sobe folks are just serious, makes me wonder if talking about anything these days is safe ?

it really is a great shock, even compared to other really good shocks, kinda surprised more folks aren't riding one.

I think GG should make it their standard bearer.

anyone interested in a 210 x 55 MRP Hazzard?


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I might be. I'd like to ride coil for a bit, but I could also skip the the in-between and just go right to the Mara. I'm thinking of the Inline for my application, though. 

Ben, as far as GG's leverage curves are concerned, whether it be Craig or Matt or Bobby, they've all said the bikes are relatively linear-progressive, and will work best with air for big guys and "ok" for coil with everyone else. Bobby himself prefers the X2 on his bike. Craig really kinda hates air shocks in general, so he's always going to suggest a coil. The reason the Progressive springs won't work so hot is that they would make an already progressive bike even more progressive. The thought being that any spring stiff enough to offer support in the mid-stroke would struggle to reach bottom out. It would be interesting however, to try a progressive spring on a shorter stroke like the Trail Pistol, and go overkill on the spring rate. I wonder if that'd provide initial stroke sensitivity, but then ramp up to being near impossible to use full stroke, creating a bottomless feel? Or being too harsh.

My complaint about the Mara right now is that is that it's the newest shock on the market and one of the few that's available so none of ya are ever selling them on the used market!


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

So I had an idea, after reading about the formula neopos, I found this video from Single-tracks..






In theory, because this neopos material gives, I guess under increasing air pressure it shrinks thereby occupying less space, it could give a bit more mid stroke support without causing a massive Ramp up at end of stroke..

Would there be any reason why one couldn't pack the mara pro air can with slices of this neopos material (instead of grease or RockShox Bands, plastic bits etc) ? Has anybody already tried it?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Leefr said:


> So I had an idea, after reading about the formula neopos, I found this video from Single-tracks..
> 
> In theory, because this neopos material gives, I guess under increasing air pressure it shrinks thereby occupying less space, it could give a bit more mid stroke support without causing a massive Ramp up at end of stroke..
> 
> Would there be any reason why one couldn't pack the mara pro air can with slices of this neopos material (instead of grease or RockShox Bands, plastic bits etc) ? Has anybody already tried it?


IMO, it wouldn't be a good fit for the Mara. You have very little volume in the outer chamber area to affect change. Even packing it completely full of plastic and grease, is a modest change in compression ratio.

I didn't watch that video, but I'm assuming it is a closed cell foam. I don't see how that would give you a different spring curve compared to putting in a similar volume of any other material (actual non-air volume, not volume of the shape).


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

The idea behind using foam in air suspension is that as the foam spacer compresses, it become harder. A large foam volume spacer acts like a bunch of tokens, makes the initial stroke nice and supple. Then, as it compresses, it becomes the density and size of maybe 1-2 tokens. 

Having experimented with foam in my fork, it does kinda work. I liked it better than hard tokens. 

Using it in a shock might having varying results. Also a lot more air pressure, so the foam would need to be considerably harder to begin with.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

If you're worried about the mid stroke you could also just get someone to tune the shock for you. I'm not any good at picking out shims but I'd bet someone has some good ideas.

Personally I'm very happy with mine after switching the air can. I'm not using every last mm of travel, but I'm also riding high and plush.


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## B. Rock (Mar 9, 2011)

So I'm currently riding a (progressive) coil because I like the consistent mid stroke support of a coil with the supple traction - especially in loose, techy climbs. Also because I tend to ride in varying temps + altitudes and don't really enjoy constantly checking air pressures. However, my bike weighs 32-33 lbs and it needs to lose some weight before a couple of flights this year. I'm on an Elkat and pulled this for the leverage ratio: 









Am I going to be fighting a Mara for mid stroke support? Or does that shift in the curve early on mean that's basically a platform for mid stroke? All of my previous bikes were essentially straight progressive, this is my first bike with any changes going on in the leverage curve.


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

I was actually just really impressed with the performance of my mezzer with its IRT system, that it got me thinking about and researching ways to create that kind of air spring tunability in a rear shock. Hence the Neopos idea. But it looks like it probably wont make much of an impact as the room for spacers is quite limited, (that's what the guys in the video said too).

The mara is probably going to work really well in stock form, from what I've read here and other places it sounds like one of the best shocks around. It's going on a Nicolai Saturn 14 ST with a leverage curve from 2,8 to 2,2, pretty much a straight line. I hope to have time in the next days to fit it. Im not going super fast or hitting really big stuff, so it's gonna probably be perfect.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

I just bought a Mara Pro about a month ago. It's for a 2021 Specialized Levo with with a cascade link to make it more progressive and add a little extra travel. I love the shock feels great most of the time, but like some have said, it seems to transition to quickly through the mid stroke. 

For me at 250psi (max pressure), I have exactly 30% sag. I have the HSC at 3 turns in and LSC compression at like 10 clicks in. I assume it has a King Can on there and it came with what appears to be 3 volume spacers in there. All 3 are still in there. 

I read in the service manual the King Can volume can be cut in half by putting the O-ring in the middle channel. I haven't taken it apart yet to see if there is an O-ring there or not. If it is not there, do I just move the O-ring from another place to there or does it require a new O-ring? I assume this is what needs to be done next to make the bike harder to bottom out? Any suggestions welcomed!
Thanks,


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

B. Rock said:


> So I'm currently riding a (progressive) coil because I like the consistent mid stroke support of a coil with the supple traction - especially in loose, techy climbs. Also because I tend to ride in varying temps + altitudes and don't really enjoy constantly checking air pressures. However, my bike weighs 32-33 lbs and it needs to lose some weight before a couple of flights this year. I'm on an Elkat and pulled this for the leverage ratio:
> View attachment 1912344
> 
> 
> Am I going to be fighting a Mara for mid stroke support? Or does that shift in the curve early on mean that's basically a platform for mid stroke? All of my previous bikes were essentially straight progressive, this is my first bike with any changes going on in the leverage curve.


I think it might be hard to get mid stroke support with that leverage curve. Compared to a linearly decreasing leverage curve, your leverage is quite a bit higher in the mid stroke region, which equates to less wheel rate and more compliance.

Feel is pretty subjective, and I think all of this varies a lot on the Mara because of the non-equalizing negative chamber. The negative spring contribution is a fixed quantity, so its relative contribution to the total spring curve can vary a lot depending on main air pressure.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> If you're worried about the mid stroke you could also just get someone to tune the shock for you. I'm not any good at picking out shims but I'd bet someone has some good ideas.
> 
> Personally I'm very happy with mine after switching the air can. I'm not using every last mm of travel, but I'm also riding high and plush.


Mid-stroke support comes from the wheel rate curve much more than the damper tune.


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## B. Rock (Mar 9, 2011)

CCS86 said:


> I think it might be hard to get mid stroke support with that leverage curve. Compared to a linearly decreasing leverage curve, your leverage is quite a bit higher in the mid stroke region, which equates to less wheel rate and more compliance.
> 
> Feel is pretty subjective, and I think all of this varies a lot on the Mara because of the non-equalizing negative chamber. The negative spring contribution is a fixed quantity, so its relative contribution to the total spring curve can vary a lot depending on main air pressure.


Got it. That might explain why I wasn't totally in love with the X2 and thought the coil felt better - especially in regards to the midstroke support.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

CCS86 said:


> Mid-stroke support comes from the wheel rate curve much more than the damper tune.


That makes sense, but I also feel like the shock has great support in the "work" mode without being overly harsh. I just don't want to switch all the time.

Ironically I forgot to switch it out of work mode on a few descents (which is the main reason I hate to use it), and I actually thought it handles the descent quite well.

Anyways, I'm really splitting hairs here. I really highly recommend the shock and don't want to discourage anyone from grabbing one. I've had very few suspension parts that I couldn't find some small fault in.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

PHeller said:


> My interest is more in the initial sensitivity. Would you say the Mara is more sensitive even with less sag than other air shocks? Or like the Blister review said, is it a case where the shock likes to move into it's mid-stroke more quickly?


2x Mara Pro owner - one a Mojo HD 4 and the other a Knolly Warden v2.

I would say the Mara is sensitive without giving away the store on sag compared to say a Float X2 which tends to hang out in the mid stroke right away. The 2021 Float X2 is better for this than the 2018/2019 I used but I didn't like the new one much really.

Mara feels to me like it rides higher without feeling like you are riding a jackhammer for low speed sensitivity.

Maybe not quite as smooth initially as a Topaz but not far off. Mara doesn't blow through mid-stroke or bail out on initial sensitivity to get to mid-stroke and handles bigger stuff better than the Topaz although I didn't take my Topaz to the limit as far as spacers to see if that would help.

One of those shocks I don't really think about when I'm riding as it handles biz without me needing to fiddle around with it once I get it installed.

If someone offered me a Topaz I would take it and if they offered me a Mara Pro I would take it as well. Beyond that for air shocks I'm not sure I would be willing to trade out for something else to be honest.

I don't have any regrets about buying a new Mara Pro for the Warden build and I don't feel like I'm missing out by not running something else...Ok, maybe a Formula coil when those start showing up.

For the record here are my settings:

Warden - 131 PSI in main can, 300 PSI in piggy, rebound is -6 or -7, LSC is -15, HSC is -3
Mojo - 135 PSI in main, 300 in piggy, rebound -5, LSC -15, HSC -3

Settings from full closed and pretty similar to what Manitou recommends as a baseline. Changes are mostly in rebound for taste. Both around 20-25% sag although I go more on feel so I'm not sure exactly how much sag they are/were at.

Driver is 185 pound meat sack riding in Arizona so lots of rock (big rocks, small rocks, rocks on top of rocks, you name it), lots of short punchy climbs with rock on them, and enough longer climbs that the work/party switch is really handy and not very punishing if you forget to switch back to party mode on the way down from work mode.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> That makes sense, but I also feel like the shock has great support in the "work" mode without being overly harsh. I just don't want to switch all the time.
> 
> Ironically I forgot to switch it out of work mode on a few descents (which is the main reason I hate to use it), and I actually thought it handles the descent quite well.
> 
> Anyways, I'm really splitting hairs here. I really highly recommend the shock and don't want to discourage anyone from grabbing one. I've had very few suspension parts that I couldn't find some small fault in.


Have you tried leaving the HSC where you like it and winding in more LSC? That should be closer to replicating the extra damping of work mode. I hesitate to use it for the same reason: forgetting to turn it off.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

B. Rock said:


> So I'm currently riding a (progressive) coil because I like the consistent mid stroke support of a coil with the supple traction - especially in loose, techy climbs. Also because I tend to ride in varying temps + altitudes and don't really enjoy constantly checking air pressures. However, my bike weighs 32-33 lbs and it needs to lose some weight before a couple of flights this year. I'm on an Elkat and pulled this for the leverage ratio:
> View attachment 1912344
> 
> 
> Am I going to be fighting a Mara for mid stroke support? Or does that shift in the curve early on mean that's basically a platform for mid stroke? All of my previous bikes were essentially straight progressive, this is my first bike with any changes going on in the leverage curve.


The Elkat has an interesting curve, it is similar to the VPP designs from Santa Cruz and Intense prior to Santa Cruz moving the links to the bottom and Intense changing their tuning. (See below). It is what would be called linear-progressive or even mild regressive-linear-progressive. Overall progressivity is about 18% which is a bit less than most modern bikes with similar travel which are in the 20-25% range. If you look at the shock forces as I attached and drew a horrible circle around, it will offer a less supportive feel in the midstroke than its competitors and less final ramp up.

Part of this also depends on how much midstroke support you like, people vary. I am going to say since you are on a coil which provides a lot of mistroke support, the Mara is not going to be the best match for you and the Elkat. I would suggest looking at the DVO Topaz, as with its adjustable negative volume, you can tune the midstroke ramp up. From my experience, the Topaz has a livelier feel than the Manitou shocks, but is not as plush feeling. You may also want to look at Rockshox and have a Vorsprung or Avalanche tune performed.

One thing we all need to keep in mind it that a huge part of performance is proper matching of the component to its use. One thing that we often get sidetracked with is if a product is "great" or the "best". That is isn't the issue, the issue is what product works best in the system it is being installed.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

silentG said:


> 2x Mara Pro owner - one a Mojo HD 4 and the other a Knolly Warden v2.
> 
> Maybe not quite as smooth initially as a Topaz but not far off. Mara doesn't blow through mid-stroke or bail out on initial sensitivity to get to mid-stroke and handles bigger stuff better than the Topaz although I didn't take my Topaz to the limit as far as spacers to see if that would help.
> 
> ...


As my son is now the proud owner of SilentG's HD4, a few comments (I have ridden it also). My son is very sensitive to midrange support and likes a lot of it. So far no complaining about it with the Mara (although he runs a bit less sag at about 25% as he likes a firmer feel). In my ride of it, it reminded me of a better McLeod, it just works, eats everything up and I don't notice anything about it. Interestingly, my son is now complaining his DVO Diamond feels harsh, which suggests that the HD4 Mara combination is plusher than the prior Turner Burner/Topaz combination that he came off of (everything else is the same, swapped frames).


----------



## B. Rock (Mar 9, 2011)

Cary said:


> The Elkat has an interesting curve, it is similar to the VPP designs from Santa Cruz and Intense prior to Santa Cruz moving the links to the bottom and Intense changing their tuning. (See below). It is what would be called linear-progressive or even mild regressive-linear-progressive. Overall progressivity is about 18% which is a bit less than most modern bikes with similar travel which are in the 20-25% range. If you look at the shock forces as I attached and drew a horrible circle around, it will offer a less supportive feel in the midstroke than its competitors and less final ramp up.
> 
> Part of this also depends on how much midstroke support you like, people vary. I am going to say since you are on a coil which provides a lot of mistroke support, the Mara is not going to be the best match for you and the Elkat. I would suggest looking at the DVO Topaz, as with its adjustable negative volume, you can tune the midstroke ramp up. From my experience, the Topaz has a livelier feel than the Manitou shocks, but is not as plush feeling. You may also want to look at Rockshox and have a Vorsprung or Avalanche tune performed.
> 
> ...


Thanks for diving into that, one of the Elkat reviews actually called out it feeling similar to that generation Bronson so that makes sense. There's a local used Super Deluxe for $150 which would put it in the range of a new Topaz after a Tractive tune, I've been thinking about both options. Heard great stuff about both options. *Edit - holy crap, that shock sold in one day.

However, isn't the Mara Pro's neg pressure adjustable? While it wouldn't be the same as adjusting volume couldn't you tune mid stroke the same way (or similarly)?


----------



## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

B. Rock said:


> However, isn't the Mara Pro's neg pressure adjustable? While it wouldn't be the same as adjusting volume couldn't you tune mid stroke the same way (or similarly)?


It is not.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

PHeller said:


> I might be. I'd like to ride coil for a bit, but I could also skip the the in-between and just go right to the Mara. I'm thinking of the Inline for my application, though.
> 
> Ben, as far as GG's leverage curves are concerned, whether it be Craig or Matt or Bobby, they've all said the bikes are relatively linear-progressive, and will work best with air for big guys and "ok" for coil with everyone else. Bobby himself prefers the X2 on his bike. Craig really kinda hates air shocks in general, so he's always going to suggest a coil. The reason the Progressive springs won't work so hot is that they would make an already progressive bike even more progressive. The thought being that any spring stiff enough to offer support in the mid-stroke would struggle to reach bottom out. It would be interesting however, to try a progressive spring on a shorter stroke like the Trail Pistol, and go overkill on the spring rate. I wonder if that'd provide initial stroke sensitivity, but then ramp up to being near impossible to use full stroke, creating a bottomless feel? Or being too harsh.
> 
> My complaint about the Mara right now is that is that it's the newest shock on the market and one of the few that's available so none of ya are ever selling them on the used market!


My buddy was asking about my used Mara for his Smash even before I'd decided to sell the bike, so yeah, no chance there 

I got lucky on my short travel Mara Pro, I was looking for one and one of the forum members had one he wasn't using.

Great shock,.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Cary said:


> The Elkat has an interesting curve, it is similar to the VPP designs from Santa Cruz and Intense prior to Santa Cruz moving the links to the bottom and Intense changing their tuning. (See below). It is what would be called linear-progressive or even mild regressive-linear-progressive. Overall progressivity is about 18% which is a bit less than most modern bikes with similar travel which are in the 20-25% range. If you look at the shock forces as I attached and drew a horrible circle around, it will offer a less supportive feel in the midstroke than its competitors and less final ramp up.
> 
> Part of this also depends on how much midstroke support you like, people vary. I am going to say since you are on a coil which provides a lot of mistroke support, the Mara is not going to be the best match for you and the Elkat. I would suggest looking at the DVO Topaz, as with its adjustable negative volume, you can tune the midstroke ramp up. From my experience, the Topaz has a livelier feel than the Manitou shocks, but is not as plush feeling. You may also want to look at Rockshox and have a Vorsprung or Avalanche tune performed.
> 
> ...


I convinced my son in law to buy an Elkat after I rode one at Outerbike. What impressed me most about the Elkat is the suppleness, didn't run out of travel, and seemed to absorb square hits better than other bikes, and all without being boggy. He was an intermediate rider, but has since progressed to advanced, we rode Sedona/Prescot/Vegas for a week at New Years and he killed it!


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

B. Rock said:


> However, isn't the Mara Pro's neg pressure adjustable? While it wouldn't be the same as adjusting volume couldn't you tune mid stroke the same way (or similarly)?


I don't think there is any current shock that has an adjustable pressure for the negative chamber. Most use an equalization port, so the pressure is equalized at a set distance into the stroke with the positive chamber. With this design the negative pressure increases with the positive and it is called "self balancing". The Manitou shocks use a fixed negative pressure, which is created when you put the sleeve on (why a sleeve reset can help and should be done from time to time). With the McLeods some people would put the shock and sleeve in the freezer and then install the sleeve after everything was cold. This would give a slightly greater negative pressure once the cooler denser air came back to room temperature, which in turn allows for a slightly greater positive pressure for the same sag and in turn more midstroke support.

While delving down this hole, it is worth mentioning negative chamber volume. The negative chamber is what lowers the stiction and give the initial plushness to an air shock. The larger the chamber, the further into the travel the negative chamber will effect the spring rate. A large negative will cause the air spring to have less support in the midstroke than a smaller negative. With the DVO Topaz and being able to adjust the volume of the negative spring, when you add spacers, the negative spring effect is terminated sooner and you can control (i.e. add) stiffness of the midstroke.


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## pedantic (Sep 3, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Bleed process is easy, hook on a syringe, hold it up the top and suck/blow until the shock has the oil and the syringe has the air. Repeat until done. To finish inject 2-3cc more oil than it takes with the IFP slammed/sucked down.
> 
> There's a new bleed kit. P/N 141-30694-K020 We have them in stock but no photo yet. It's got two o-ring type syringes, torx driver and 4 different bleed aluminium fittings: Damper Bleed Tool Kit (Manitou) | Shockcraft


Thanks for the reply, Dougal. I appreciate the help. Here's to hoping...


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> I just bought a Mara Pro about a month ago. It's for a 2021 Specialized Levo with with a cascade link to make it more progressive and add a little extra travel. I love the shock feels great most of the time, but like some have said, it seems to transition to quickly through the mid stroke.
> 
> For me at 250psi (max pressure), I have exactly 30% sag. I have the HSC at 3 turns in and LSC compression at like 10 clicks in. I assume it has a King Can on there and it came with what appears to be 3 volume spacers in there. All 3 are still in there.
> 
> ...


I think you just remove the middle o-ring to get more volume in the air can.

Had to dig around to find it but King Can Air Volume Adjustment and Installation Guide talks about it as far as the settings.


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## Nicklz (Sep 30, 2020)

silentG said:


> Had to dig around to find it but King Can Air Volume Adjustment and Installation Guide talks about it as far as the settings.


I'm new to all this, but is the graph correctly labelled? They might have swapped the axis labels or am I mistaken?


----------



## ramdm (Apr 25, 2014)

Nicklz said:


> I'm new to all this, but is the graph correctly labelled? They might have swapped the axis labelles or am I mistaken?
> View attachment 1912611


I think so

Enviado desde mi Redmi 5 Plus mediante Tapatalk


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

Yeah, more volume means more travel to work with before progression kicks in at the right of the graph, less volume means you run out of road sooner and more progressive as a result.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Nicklz said:


> I'm new to all this, but is the graph correctly labelled? They might have swapped the axis labels or am I mistaken?
> View attachment 1912611


Axis labels are swapped

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## pedantic (Sep 3, 2018)

I'm not sure how deep in the weeds I care to get about suspension kinematics and shock design. Yeti describes the sb130lr as having 12% progressivity. It shows a more linear progression curve. Does it seem like the Mara Pro is a good fit for the sb130? I have a new 210x50 Mara Pro that I'm not going to bother with it I'm going to be doing a ton of tinkering. Does anyone have experience with the Mara Pro on Yeti 130?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

silentG said:


> I think you just remove the middle o-ring to get more volume in the air can.
> 
> Had to dig around to find it but King Can Air Volume Adjustment and Installation Guide talks about it as far as the settings.


Most cans come set to middle volume. Move the o-ring to the end groove to increase volume.
Manitou have volume reducer bands to tune in between, but I don't have part numbers yet.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Most cans come set to middle volume. Move the o-ring to the end groove to increase volume.
> Manitou have volume reducer bands to tune in between, but I don't have part numbers yet.


I'm a noob at working on my shocks, usually limiting myself to only turning dials, but have gotten started delving more into the inner workings after finding this thread. Manitou sent me a bag of what looks like volume reducer bands (5 in the bag). The part number listed on the bag is 142-37512-K039, with the naming just being "SERVICE, MARA SHOCK".
Attached is a pic so you can validate.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Moosedriver said:


> I'm a noob at working on my shocks, usually limiting myself to only turning dials, but have gotten started delving more into the inner workings after finding this thread. Manitou sent me a bag of what looks like volume reducer bands (5 in the bag). The part number listed on the bag is 142-37512-K039, with the naming just being "SERVICE, MARA SHOCK".
> Attached is a pic so you can validate.
> 
> View attachment 1912730


Great find. That is indeed the spacer kit. It's new enough it's not on my order sheets.


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## Leefr (Dec 16, 2020)

I submitted a request online at Manitou (Hayes) for support regarding Shim stack info. last week. Today I received a response from Hayes EU support that there will be a tuning kit for the mara, but no info as to when it will be available and what it might consist of. I guess it must still be in development.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> My buddy was asking about my used Mara for his Smash even before I'd decided to sell the bike, so yeah, no chance there
> 
> I got lucky on my short travel Mara Pro, I was looking for one and one of the forum members had one he wasn't using.
> 
> Great shock,.


Yeah sorry about that @PHeller I was the one that stole Ben's 230x60 shock. Have to say it is incredible and feels like an upgraded version of the McLeod. I have yet to mess with Ben's original settings other than adding a click or two of rebound as the weather here is all over the place. Once things stabilize after winter I will go through and do a tuning ride on it, but luckily Ben and I are relatively same size and riding style so his settings transferred over fine.


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## SpinFactor (Jul 30, 2020)

Looking for some thoughts on a Mara Pro on a Revel Rascal. Rider weight 220lbs...

What type of pressures are people running at this rider weight?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

SpinFactor said:


> Looking for some thoughts on a Mara Pro a Revel Rascal rider weight 220lbs...
> 
> What type of pressures are people running at this rider weight?


It doesn't matter what pressures others are using, everyone is different, even on the same bike. Start with 30% sag and see how it feels. You may prefer 25%, 27%, or 35%. Until you ride it and play with it, you won't know. To give you an idea, my son has a Mara on his bike. The prior owner ran 135 psi, my son 155 psi and he is 5 pounds lighter. Prior owner like about 33% sag, my son likes it better at about 25%.


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## SpinFactor (Jul 30, 2020)

Cary said:


> It doesn't matter what pressures others are using, everyone is different, even on the same bike. Start with 30% sag and see how it feels. You may prefer 25%, 27%, or 35%. Until you ride it and play with it, you won't know. To give you an idea, my son has a Mara on his bike. The prior owner ran 135 psi, my son 155 psi and he is 5 pounds lighter. Prior owner like about 33% sag, my son likes it better at about 25%.


ya, I hear ya on that.

I am asking because I find that if I am max'd or close to the max psi setting (RS & Fix) its difficult to tune the shock (not sure about Mara) and I am giving up alot on one end of the tuning spectrum. 
That said , I am curious generally what people in that weight range are running. 
I am not looking to mimic some one else's air spring setup based on my weight.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

SpinFactor said:


> ya, I hear ya on that.
> 
> I am asking because I find that if I am max'd or close to the max psi setting (RS & Fix) its difficult to tune the shock (not sure about Mara) and I am giving up alot on one end of the tuning spectrum.
> That said , I am curious generally what people in that weight range are running.
> I am not looking to mimic some one else's air spring setup based on my weight.


Roughly 30 psi under weight. You should not be close to maxing it out. The one potential issue is too large of a positive chamber so you bottom too easily. You can use volume reducers to control. If that is not enough there is a smaller volume can available, but your bike has a moderately progressive leverage rate, making that very unlikely.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

*Mara User Setups: Google Sheets*








Mara User Setups


Mara Setup Main Air Chamber,Damper Averages:,155.8,26%,-4,2.6,14.6,4.0 Shock Dims.,Rider Weight [lb],Rider Weight [kg],Main Pressure [psi],Sag [%],PSI - Rider Weight,HSC (+) [from open],LSC (-) [from closed],Rebound [from closed],Shock Compression Ratio,Air Can V...




docs.google.com





I made a quick Google Sheet that we can track user setups with. Maybe @Nurse Ben can add a link to the 1st post.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey guys I just got my mara pro. Looking for any recommendations for setup. It's 210x55 and I weigh 100kg. 

I used similar settings to the closest weight to me in the chart above but found it it nowhere near the recommended sag and the rebound is very fast. 

Ant suggestions from riders of a similar weight will be most welcomed. 

Cheers

Sent from my AC2001 using Tapatalk


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

Q: What are the options for 200x50 or 200x51 shocks from Manitou? I don't see any options available. Currently using the Monarch RC3 Plus but I'd like something a bit more refined.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ForMartha said:


> Q: What are the options for 200x50 or 200x51 shocks from Manitou? I don't see any options available. Currently using the Monarch RC3 Plus but I'd like something a bit more refined.


200x56 exists. If your frame can't handle the last 1/4" you can put a shaft spacer in to limit stroke.


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

Dougal said:


> 200x56 exists. If your frame can't handle the last 1/4" you can put a shaft spacer in to limit stroke.


Thanks Dougal,
I'm owning the OGHT, won't the shaft limiter will effect the behavior of the shock?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

thedrizzle said:


> Hey guys I just got my mara pro. Looking for any recommendations for setup. It's 210x55 and I weigh 100kg.
> 
> I used similar settings to the closest weight to me in the chart above but found it it nowhere near the recommended sag and the rebound is very fast.
> 
> Ant suggestions from riders of a similar weight will be most welcomed.


My experience is very similar.

I would say to do an air can "reset" to make sure the negative is fully charged. You can take that a step further by freezing the air can before assembly, to get maximum airmass trapped.

Beyond that, don't worry too much about sag. Set the pressure for good response and bottom out support.

I was running my rebound essentially fully shut for a while, in order to have balance off of jumps. But I recently found that speeding up the rebound on my fork allowed me to get the Mara back to the default setting of -5 with good balance. The bike rides better overall like this. You might try running yours at -4 and then adjust the fork to match.


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## boellefisk (Nov 16, 2020)

Does anyone know if it will fit an SB150 L frame? The current X2 is a tight fit, and the oil reservoir looks a lot longer on the Mara Pro...


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

boellefisk said:


> Does anyone know if it will fit an SB150 L frame? The current X2 is a tight fit, and the oil reservoir looks a lot longer on the Mara Pro...


I'd say not a chance, but you can always measure. For 230x60 compressed....

"A" is 170mm
"C" is 54.6mm


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## boellefisk (Nov 16, 2020)

rete said:


> I'd say not a chance, but you can always measure. For 230x60 compressed....
> 
> "A" is 170mm
> "C" is 54.6mm
> ...


Surprisingly...if I'm not measuring incorrectly...it fits! with just 3-4mm between top tube and top end of reservoir. Thanks!
Edit: Damn...that "60" can't be 60mm if C is 54.6 and the drawing is to scale. So...I am still unsure if it fits.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

boellefisk said:


> Surprisingly...if I'm not measuring incorrectly...it fits! with just 3-4mm between top tube and top end of reservoir. Thanks!
> Edit: Damn...that "60" can't be 60mm if C is 54.6 and the drawing is to scale. So...I am still unsure if it fits.


The edge of the piggyback is 60mm from the centreline of the shock. And the drawing is not to scale for 230x60.


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## boellefisk (Nov 16, 2020)

rete said:


> The edge of the piggyback is 60mm from the centreline of the shock. And the drawing is not to scale for 230x60.


Right, big thanks! Then I believe it will fit. On to figuring out the hardware. Any chance one could can reuse the fox mounting hardware on the mara?


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

rete said:


> I'd say not a chance, but you can always measure. For 230x60 compressed....
> 
> "A" is 170mm
> "C" is 54.6mm
> ...


Anyone have that drawing for a 190x45 Mara pro? 
Otherwise anyone put one on a tallboy4 (successfully  )?

thanks
Oren


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

boellefisk said:


> Does anyone know if it will fit an SB150 L frame? The current X2 is a tight fit, and the oil reservoir looks a lot longer on the Mara Pro...


There is a shorter reservoir: Mara Pro Short Reservoir Kit (Manitou) | Shockcraft

It's 15mm shorter than the one on the 230x60-65mm shocks. Allegedly they fit with more careful IFP depth setting but I haven't had the time to test fit one.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

boellefisk said:


> Right, big thanks! Then I believe it will fit. On to figuring out the hardware. Any chance one could can reuse the fox mounting hardware on the mara?


Yeah, reuse the hardware. You'll have to press out the DU bushings that comes in the Mara.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

Dougal said:


> Allegedly they fit with more careful IFP depth setting but I haven't had the time to test fit one.


Probably real...


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

boellefisk said:


> Surprisingly...if I'm not measuring incorrectly...it fits! with just 3-4mm between top tube and top end of reservoir. Thanks!
> Edit: Damn...that "60" can't be 60mm if C is 54.6 and the drawing is to scale. So...I am still unsure if it fits.


I would also say IMO if you only measured 3-4mm clearance...time to double, triple and quadruple check. Perhaps contact Hayes with your measured bike clearance dimensions, or contact Yeti and ask if the shock will fit.


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

Just curious if anyone uses Manitou hardware on their Manitou shocks? No one seems to have any in stock.

Need 8 x 20 and 8 x 35 for a GG Smash.

What are folks preferred setup for hardware on a Mara?
Press out the stock DU bushing and use Fox?
Is any of the Rockshox or DVO hardware compatible?

At this point I'm just looking for something in stock - but that seems the case for a lot of bike parts these days.

Thanks for your help.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

aaronka970 said:


> Just curious if anyone uses Manitou hardware on their Manitou shocks? No one seems to have any in stock.
> 
> Need 8 x 20 and 8 x 35 for a GG Smash.
> 
> ...


I always use the fox, /Dvo, / suntour igus stuff, ddpending on what is nost cheap to get


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

Do you press out the manitou DU bushing for all those options?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

aaronka970 said:


> Just curious if anyone uses Manitou hardware on their Manitou shocks? No one seems to have any in stock.
> 
> Need 8 x 20 and 8 x 35 for a GG Smash.
> 
> ...


Rockshox stuff tends to be plug and play. Fox depends. They have two different tolerance IGUS bushings now and you need to drive out the DU to fit that.


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

So with Rockshox I can just by 8 x 20 and 8 x 35 and it will fit inside the existing DU bushing?


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

Just start with your current mounting hardware. Press out the Manitou's DU bushings, then move all the mounting hardware including IGUS bushings from your Fox over to the Mara. Chances are you'll be fine.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

aaronka970 said:


> Do you press out the manitou DU bushing for all those options?


Yes, the igus bushings replace the originals


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

I bought a Smash, frame only, no shock- so no existing hardware. I’ll ask GG for Fox dpx2 hardware parts numbers?
Thanks for the help


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

Smash would be 20 x 8mm for front shock mount (Fox 803-03-236 ) and 35 x 8mm for the rear shock mount (Fox 803-03-184)

The Lost Co shows stock on them and you can likely find them elsewhere.

Some sites will list exact size and some will list close sizes so something like 34.89 x 8mm would work but not 35.05 x 8mm for example.

I'm pretty sure I have a set of Manitou eyelets that I would send you, lemme go check my parts bin to verify I'm not talking crazy...brb


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

Meh, they are a 22x8mm

The Manitou mounting hardware is good, a bit hard to find and maybe more so in the sizes you need.


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

silentG said:


> Smash would be 20 x 8mm for front shock mount (Fox 803-03-236 ) and 35 x 8mm for the rear shock mount (Fox 803-03-184)
> 
> Fox Shock Mounting Hardware shows stock on them and you can likely find them elsewhere.
> 
> ...


Awesome! Thanks!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

aaronka970 said:


> I bought a Smash, frame only, no shock- so no existing hardware. I'll ask GG for Fox dpx2 hardware parts numbers?
> Thanks for the help


Look also at the dvo hardware. It is the same but often cheaper to have


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## jakalwil (Nov 24, 2020)

Finally about to install the Mara Pro I got back on November on Black Friday deal. (Kept my stock DPX2 on to eat all the winter salt/sludge and keep the Mara fresh for spring.) Would you guys recommend any pre-install maintenance/tinkering? I’m assuming I should at least pop the air can to equalize pressure after sitting so long?


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## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

jakalwil said:


> Finally about to install the Mara Pro I got back on November on Black Friday deal. (Kept my stock DPX2 on to eat all the winter salt/sludge and keep the Mara fresh for spring.) Would you guys recommend any pre-install maintenance/tinkering? I'm assuming I should at least pop the air can to equalize pressure after sitting so long?


I always take apart new suspension, they tend to be on the dry side by my personal experience so I would take the air can off for sure to reset it and grease everything with Slickoleum


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I re-worked my Mezzer over the winter and now my Mara is due. I'll take some tuning advice, please!

I'm on a Ripmo v1, 145mm rear, not super progressive (no coils). I've decided to move back to the King Can from the Standard can. The Standard Can was excellent in terms of bottom-out resistance, but I was completely backed out of the compression damping (full open) and it wasn't as plush as the fork especially in the mid-stroke and beyond. It just felt unbalanced.

Now I'm back on the king can. It's filled with homemade spacers and has a few dabs of grease in it to add spring progression, but it's still not as progressive as the standard can. I'm at 140psi which comes out to about 30% sag with my ~195lb geared up weight (vs. 135psi to achieve the same result on the standard can). Basically running the HSC wide open again. Travel use is good overall. A little more bottom-out resistance would be appreciated for big jumps, but any more HSC causes spiking.

So where do I go from here?

I can remove spacers, add a few psi, and try adding more HSC, but last time that resulted in harshness and bottom-outs.
Add spacers, drop psi, remove a shim from the stack so my HSC is less firm? Kind of takes me back to where I was with the standard air can, but maybe opening up the HSC more than wide open will add some plushness back. I'm kind of leaning towards going this direction, but I'm surprised I would need to lower the HSC damping at my weight. That may just be a function of my bike's rear suspension curve though.
Has anyone messed with the shim stack on these shocks?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ungod said:


> I re-worked my Mezzer over the winter and now my Mara is due. I'll take some tuning advice, please!
> 
> I'm on a Ripmo v1, 145mm rear, not super progressive (no coils). I've decided to move back to the King Can from the Standard can. The Standard Can was excellent in terms of bottom-out resistance, but I was completely backed out of the compression damping (full open) and it wasn't as plush as the fork especially in the mid-stroke and beyond. It just felt unbalanced.
> 
> ...


Ignore sag and increase pressure to get the frequency that feels good. I measured sag the other day and came out under 20%.


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## rustyspade (Apr 13, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Ignore sag and increase pressure to get the frequency that feels good. I measured sag the other day and came out under 20%.


can you please explain this as i thought you need to run your sag at say 30% to achieved ideal geo for cornering, as if the bikes corners great at 30% sag 20 would make it stand up in the rear etc?


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

Every bike reviewer will tell you for best cornering on smooth-as-glass flowtrails with man-made berms you need to run as much static sag as you need to achieve a 15mm high bottom bracket for this geo.










Otherwise your bike is from the 90's and unrideable.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rustyspade said:


> can you please explain this as i thought you need to run your sag at say 30% to achieved ideal geo for cornering, as if the bikes corners great at 30% sag 20 would make it stand up in the rear etc?


30% sag has for me been too much. Can't pedal anywhere without tapping the ground and can't climb either. Shorter cranks are not the answer.

On air springs you use air spring volume to match frequency to ride height. If you're happy with the spring feel but are sitting too high than add volume spacers and lower pressure to get the same feel with more sag.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> 30% sag has for me been too much. Can't pedal anywhere without tapping the ground and can't climb either. Shorter cranks are not the answer.
> 
> On air springs you use air spring volume to match frequency to ride height. If you're happy with the spring feel but are sitting too high than add volume spacers and lower pressure to get the same feel with more sag.


What about when you need to go the other way, happy with frequency but are sitting low? But there are no volume spacers and air chamber is fixed size? Like on a Mattoc fork?


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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

ashwinearl said:


> What about when you need to go the other way, happy with frequency but are sitting low? But there are no volume spacers and air chamber is fixed size? Like on a Mattoc fork?


Your are asking to make the spring curve less progressive. I think for a three chamber air spring is to lower the main pressure first to get more sag, and play with IRT pressure to get back to that "frequency feel". When you use the full body to sense the frequency, you use lots of mid stroke instead of just the initial part of travel.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> What about when you need to go the other way, happy with frequency but are sitting low? But there are no volume spacers and air chamber is fixed size? Like on a Mattoc fork?


You need a bigger air chamber. What are your current settings? Running the two IRT chambers closer together should give you a lower ride height for similar frequency.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> You need a bigger air chamber. What are your current settings? Running the two IRT chambers closer together should give you a lower ride height for similar frequency.


Hi Dougal,

I want to adapt my 230*65 Mara pro to Trunnion 205*60. Where can I get the trunnion shock head and how much is it?


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## boellefisk (Nov 16, 2020)

In regards to the BikeRadar review where he puts it on an Orange Stage 6 and it doesn't work as well as it should, why doesn't it work? Why would eg. an X2 work better (as I read in the comments of the article)? If the leverage curve of the Stage 6 is almost flat and the X2 (as far as I know) also have less ramp up than most other shocks, why wouldn't Mara Pro be any good? Please help me understand. What piece of information am I missing?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

boellefisk said:


> In regards to the BikeRadar review where he puts it on an Orange Stage 6 and it doesn't work as well as it should, why doesn't it work? Why would eg. an X2 work better (as I read in the comments of the article)? If the leverage curve of the Stage 6 is almost flat and the X2 (as far as I know) also have less ramp up than most other shocks, why wouldn't Mara Pro be any good? Please help me understand. What piece of information am I missing?


That review defied all logic. The same reviewer also panned the same bike with a Monarch but raved about the FLOAT X2 which has nothing special at all in air spring and less in damper. Then in the pics of the X2 shod bike review it's shown with the rear suspension flattened on a bermed corner. Which blows the argument apart.

Reviewers playing favourites?


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## spo0n (Nov 7, 2020)

Guys i think we should take no notice of anything bikeradar say, they rated yari 3rd best out of 10 high end forks


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## boellefisk (Nov 16, 2020)

It's just sad because I have a hard time finding a really solid review of the shock. For some reason it seems that a lot of the reviews featuring the Mezzer was by reviewers who didn't understand the IRT and the Mara is just not reviewed at all. I don't really have issues with my current Factory X2, but it's expensive to get serviced and I have no way to service it myself and I also really want a spare shock (maybe X2 will end up being the spare, undecided). On top of that I fear it isn't the most reliable shock as I (anecdotally) have two friends who blew their X2 within the first 6 months of use. I found out that Mara Pro fit's my bike and have it ordered now but I do so semi-blind I feel. The other option was DVO Topaz but it's more expensive and seems to be harder to get spare parts for where I live. Oh well.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

boellefisk said:


> It's just sad because I have a hard time finding a really solid review of the shock. For some reason it seems that a lot of the reviews featuring the Mezzer was by reviewers who didn't understand the IRT and the Mara is just not reviewed at all. I don't really have issues with my current Factory X2, but it's expensive to get serviced and I have no way to service it myself and I also really want a spare shock (maybe X2 will end up being the spare, undecided). On top of that I fear it isn't the most reliable shock as I (anecdotally) have two friends who blew their X2 within the first 6 months of use. I found out that Mara Pro fit's my bike and have it ordered now but I do so semi-blind I feel. The other option was DVO Topaz but it's more expensive and seems to be harder to get spare parts for where I live. Oh well.


A good German review at mtb-news.de


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## boellefisk (Nov 16, 2020)

bansaiman said:


> A good German review at mtb-news.de


Thanks! Google translate helped, but I think some parts got lost in translation. But overall good article!


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## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

boellefisk said:


> It's just sad because I have a hard time finding a really solid review of the shock. For some reason it seems that a lot of the reviews featuring the Mezzer was by reviewers who didn't understand the IRT and the Mara is just not reviewed at all. I don't really have issues with my current Factory X2, but it's expensive to get serviced and I have no way to service it myself and I also really want a spare shock (maybe X2 will end up being the spare, undecided). On top of that I fear it isn't the most reliable shock as I (anecdotally) have two friends who blew their X2 within the first 6 months of use. I found out that Mara Pro fit's my bike and have it ordered now but I do so semi-blind I feel. The other option was DVO Topaz but it's more expensive and seems to be harder to get spare parts for where I live. Oh well.


I had both on my 2020 Giant Reign Advanced and the Mara Pro blows the X2 out of the water, the damping system is so much for refined and composed that made the bike feel like a complete different bike, specially thru rocky and loose sections, bike felt super planted. I was impressed enough that now my Epic Evo S-Works is running the Mara Inline. 
On top of that they are super easy to service and they are super helpful if you have any issues, so to me between the ride quality and the user serviceability it's a win win.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

spo0n said:


> Guys i think we should take no notice of anything bikeradar say, they rated yari 3rd best out of 10 high end forks


It was Seb Stott though, he's pretty methodical, explains his testing in detail, and in general seems vastly more objective than most - including pleeeeenty on this site.

I have a Mara Pro and don't care for it's air spring. If Manitou can have advanced air chamber design on their forks, why stick to year 2010 design on their air shocks with a negative chamber that's nothing more than a top out bumper. I wish Vorsprung would start paying attention to some Manitou products; but as long as their market share remains a rounding error I guess that won't happen.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> That review defied all logic. The same reviewer also panned the same bike with a Monarch but raved about the FLOAT X2 which has nothing special at all in air spring and less in damper. Then in the pics of the X2 shod bike review it's shown with the rear suspension flattened on a bermed corner. Which blows the argument apart.
> 
> Reviewers playing favourites?


Hey Dougal, did You
oversee my question regarding tge change to Trunnion? Would be haooy if you could help me with the indo, as I change my bike but want to keep my Mara


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## boellefisk (Nov 16, 2020)

rete said:


> It was Seb Stott though, he's pretty methodical, explains his testing in detail, and in general seems vastly more objective than most - including pleeeeenty on this site.
> 
> I have a Mara Pro and don't care for it's air spring. If Manitou can have advanced air chamber design on their forks, why stick to year 2010 design on their air shocks with a negative chamber that's nothing more than a top out bumper. I wish Vorsprung would start paying attention to some Manitou products; but as long as their market share remains a rounding error I guess that won't happen.


I hope I don't have the same experience as you. 
Your complaint is that it isn't possible to adjust the negative air pressure? Or is it that it doesn't have a equalization dimple?


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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

rete said:


> It was Seb Stott though, he's pretty methodical, explains his testing in detail, and in general seems vastly more objective than most - including pleeeeenty on this site.











Manitou Mara Pro rear shock review


Can the Mara perform as well as Manitou’s new Mezzer enduro fork?




www.bikeradar.com





I only found one review about Mara Pro on bikeradar, by Alex Evans, done on an orange frame.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

boellefisk said:


> In regards to the BikeRadar review where he puts it on an Orange Stage 6 and it doesn't work as well as it should, why doesn't it work? Why would eg. an X2 work better (as I read in the comments of the article)? If the leverage curve of the Stage 6 is almost flat and the X2 (as far as I know) also have less ramp up than most other shocks, why wouldn't Mara Pro be any good? Please help me understand. What piece of information am I missing?


If your leverage curve is constant, basically your wheel spring curve now becomes your rear shock's spring curve times by leverage ratio. Which means stiff initially if you have an air spring. So having a shock with a softer initial stroke becomes relatively more noticeable. The X2 has a modern extra volume negative chamber and a softer initial spring curve than the Mara Pro - which has a tiny negative chamber and is very stiff off the top.



boellefisk said:


> I hope I don't have the same experience as you.
> Your complaint is that it isn't possible to adjust the negative air pressure? Or is it that it doesn't have a equalization dimple?


It's the off-the-top stiffness and what that means for gnarly terrain at slower speeds, especially traction while standing during steep climbing. Unfortunately I live right in the Rocky Mountains and all our terrain is actual mountain. The shock's just not active right into it's travel. The bike it's on has a 20% progressive leverage curve starting at 2.8 and I can barely budge it with two hands, I have to lean an elbow on the seat to get the shock into it's travel.

It reminds me a bit of my 2016 Cane Creek DB Air Inline. I had that shock for years, didn't use it for a while, then upgraded the damper to the latest version (didn't improve damping, just improved reliability), and finally upgraded the stanchion and air can to CC's latest modern air spring design. On the bike it's on (29% progression starting at 2.68) I can now use one hand on the saddle pressed from the side to get the shock to initiate travel - compared to a both-hands-and-press-hard before - and (to me) it is now a much better shock than the original when I bought it.

Some people like their air springs to have this curve (apparently) but they are also the same ones that will tell you to get a coil, or to get a luftkappe, or to get a megneg, or to get a secus. Of course, this criticism of mine is subjective to my situation. But companies like Vorsprung have long devoted much of their effort to improve the nature of air spring curves, starting with addressing this very characteristic years ago with the corset.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

upsha said:


> Manitou Mara Pro rear shock review
> 
> 
> Can the Mara perform as well as Manitou’s new Mezzer enduro fork?
> ...


I was referring to the comment about the Lyrik in their 10 enduro forks test.


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## boellefisk (Nov 16, 2020)

rete said:


> If your leverage curve is constant, basically your wheel spring curve now becomes your rear shock's spring curve times by leverage ratio. Which means stiff initially if you have an air spring. So having a shock with a softer initial stroke becomes relatively more noticeable. The X2 has a modern extra volume negative chamber and a softer initial spring curve than the Mara Pro - which has a tiny negative chamber and is very stiff off the top.
> 
> It's the off-the-top stiffness and what that means for gnarly terrain at slower speeds, especially traction while standing during steep climbing. Unfortunately I live right in the Rocky Mountains and all our terrain is actual mountain. The shock's just not active right into it's travel. The bike it's on has a 20% progressive leverage curve starting at 2.8 and I can barely budge it with two hands, I have to lean an elbow on the seat to get the shock into it's travel.
> 
> ...


Thanks, great info.
If you were to guess, on a bike with 26% average leverage increase starting at around 2.9 would you think this shock to be a bad choice/match? I plan on using the bike mostly for park and pretty rough enduro trails.
I also do have a coil that fits (DVO Jade) but I am hesitant to get less pop/fun and more weight, but that would for sure make a subtle and glued feel I guess.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> Hey Dougal, did You
> oversee my question regarding tge change to Trunnion? Would be haooy if you could help me with the indo, as I change my bike but want to keep my Mara


I just had another look through the price-lists and there are not any shaft assemblies available for the Mara Pro's at this point in time. They do have both top-cap and shaft assemblies for the McLeods.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

boellefisk said:


> Thanks, great info.
> If you were to guess, on a bike with 26% average leverage increase starting at around 2.9 would you think this shock to be a bad choice/match? I plan on using the bike mostly for park and pretty rough enduro trails.
> I also do have a coil that fits (DVO Jade) but I am hesitant to get less pop/fun and more weight, but that would for sure make a subtle and glued feel I guess.


Park and enduro trails you're not going to spend a lot of time in initial travel - it will be great.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

spo0n said:


> Guys i think we should take no notice of anything bikeradar say, they rated yari 3rd best out of 10 high end forks


Yeah that bugs the hell out of me too. I know they had some real shockers as competition in that test but the Yari is increidbly bad on any sharp impact. Any rocks, any roots, any jump landings it just spikes.
How could you test "Enduro" forks without constantly having that problem.



rete said:


> It was Seb Stott though, he's pretty methodical, explains his testing in detail, and in general seems vastly more objective than most - including pleeeeenty on this site.
> 
> I have a Mara Pro and don't care for it's air spring. If Manitou can have advanced air chamber design on their forks, why stick to year 2010 design on their air shocks with a negative chamber that's nothing more than a top out bumper. I wish Vorsprung would start paying attention to some Manitou products; but as long as their market share remains a rounding error I guess that won't happen.


Objectivity doesn't truely exist. Once you accept that life gets less frustrating.

The issue with air-cans is everything you do has a downside. Put a notch in and you get a dead spot in the stroke at low speeds. You also force sag to be past that point no matter how much pressure you run (debonair). Some bikes need a fast ramp-up from the top to hold the rider up. Others can run deeper into stroke.
Run a lot of negative air and the big guys end up at pressure limits. 
We've also now got something like 7 frame sizes and dozens of shock configurations to get a best-fit across.

I can tell you there's continual work and testing being done on air-cans.



rete said:


> It's the off-the-top stiffness and what that means for gnarly terrain at slower speeds, especially traction while standing during steep climbing. Unfortunately I live right in the Rocky Mountains and all our terrain is actual mountain. The shock's just not active right into it's travel. The bike it's on has a 20% progressive leverage curve starting at 2.8 and I can barely budge it with two hands, I have to lean an elbow on the seat to get the shock into it's travel.


What pressure are you running? Have you ever changed the negative air quad-ring? Sounds like it's not holding negative.

Your bike progression and leverage is pretty much what I was running on my last bike. Current bike tapers off right at the end. I'm running ~145psi on both those. Previous one I ran King Can at full volume.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> I just had another look through the price-lists and there are not any shaft assemblies available for the Mara Pro's at this point in time. They do have both top-cap and shaft assemblies for the McLeods.


1. Thus I could change a 216*63 Mcleod to a 205*60 mm trunnion mcleod?

Which number does that part have?

2. There are no parts available AT THIS TIME to swap my 230 mara pro to a trunnion 205,but they WILL COME, correct?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> 1. Thus I could change a 216*63 Mcleod to a 205*60 mm trunnion mcleod?
> 
> Which number does that part have?
> 
> 2. There are no parts available AT THIS TIME to swap my 230 mara pro to a trunnion 205,but they WILL COME, correct?


Those McLeod heads are all inline, no trunnion. I can't tell you what is coming for parts availability. I can only see what is currently offered.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

Dougal said:


> What pressure are you running? Have you ever changed the negative air quad-ring? Sounds like it's not holding negative.
> 
> Your bike progression and leverage is pretty much what I was running on my last bike. Current bike tapers off right at the end. I'm running ~145psi on both those. Previous one I ran King Can at full volume.


Around 150psi, 88kg, king can full volume.

When depressurizing the shock retracts almost 10mm on itself. But for good measure I pulled it apart again tonight, lubed, back together, went for a ride. I just cannot see how this negative spring design can ever be classed as "soft" at it's initial stroke. Generally I have no complaints when I'm bombing or the shock is weighted. It's those lightly weighted standing climbs on mountainy terrain....

I also recently switched this.....










....on my wife's ride to a 2007 RP23 with corset, of all things. I may post this up in the McLeod thread, that king can is either going to be improved or sacrificed, one way or another, in an attempt to drag this Manitou's air curve forwards a decade.


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## andyrm (Nov 12, 2018)

Just looking seriously at a Mara Pro for a new build. Hypothetically, if I wanted to shorten the eye to eye, could I use one of those nylon spacers in the negative side, under the bumper, to do this? Would seem to be a really easy way to do some fine tuning.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

andyrm said:


> Just looking seriously at a Mara Pro for a new build. Hypothetically, if I wanted to shorten the eye to eye, could I use one of those nylon spacers in the negative side, under the bumper, to do this? Would seem to be a really easy way to do some fine tuning.


You could, but that is going to make the shock much stiffer off the top. The negative spring is relying on full travel to come up to full pressure.

You'd be much better off using offset shock bushings to shorten.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## andyrm (Nov 12, 2018)

CCS86 said:


> You could, but that is going to make the shock much stiffer off the top. The negative spring is relying on full travel to come up to full pressure.
> 
> You'd be much better off using offset shock bushings to shorten.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


Aah I see, I didn't know if in fact it might be the opposite effect as the neg chamber would be slightly larger relative to the pos chamber. So does pressure have more effect than volume when it comes to a negative spring? Been reading up loads and can't find anything conclusive.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

My third Mara Pro is on the way from Germany, going on a Canfield Tilt 👍

Up front I’ll be riding a Mattoc Pro


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

andyrm said:


> Aah I see, I didn't know if in fact it might be the opposite effect as the neg chamber would be slightly larger relative to the pos chamber. So does pressure have more effect than volume when it comes to a negative spring? Been reading up loads and can't find anything conclusive.


Most of the negative spring info that is in circulation, is regarding shocks with a self-equalizing dimple. Increasing the negative chamber volume in a shock that self equalizes has a vastly different effect compared to one, like the Mara, which does not equalize.

The Mara's negative pressure is built entirely by the volume captured when the air piston first seals to the air can, as it is compressed down to its final volume at top of stroke.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## peterj59 (Feb 25, 2021)

silentG said:


> I think you just remove the middle o-ring to get more volume in the air can.
> 
> Had to dig around to find it but King Can Air Volume Adjustment and Installation Guide talks about it as far as the settings.


Ok so the King Can install guide looks simple to do, however if you go to the 


https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/360071701094/Mara_Pro_Piggyback_Complete_Service_Guide.pdf


the piggy back can has oil in it and a schrader valve you need to depress as well as a special tool to remove the piggy back. Also you would be required to refill it 
So which is it? is it as simple as the install guide or complex as the Mara Pro Piggyback Complete Service Guide (3).pdf
or Mara 50 hour Air Can and Piston Service (1).pdf


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

You don't need to open or remove the piggyback to change air cans.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

Also - the Pro has the King Can when you unbox it. If you want the standard volume can you have to order it separately.


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## peterj59 (Feb 25, 2021)

Thanks again, putting in my order !!!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

andyrm said:


> Just looking seriously at a Mara Pro for a new build. Hypothetically, if I wanted to shorten the eye to eye, could I use one of those nylon spacers in the negative side, under the bumper, to do this? Would seem to be a really easy way to do some fine tuning.


Yes, but to avoid losing negative air effect you need to have them the right size. I've got these 1.25mm spacer rings that work: McLeod Travel Spacer 28 x 39 x 1.25 mm (Shockcraft) | Shockcraft


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## kazik z racka (Aug 30, 2009)

Changing the damper stroke means removing the black o-ring or the silver element?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

kazik z racka said:


> Changing the damper stroke means removing the black o-ring or the silver element?


The silver spacer. You keep the black o-ring.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## kazik z racka (Aug 30, 2009)

Ok, thanks a lot


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## boellefisk (Nov 16, 2020)

CCS86 said:


> The silver spacer. You keep the black o-ring.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


So, if I have a 60mm stroke and wanted it to be a 65mm, could I simply remove the silver spacer without doing anything else? (IFP depth changes?)
Sorry if it was already answered, tried to look through this thread but it's soooo long


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

boellefisk said:


> So, if I have a 60mm stroke and wanted it to be a 65mm, could I simply remove the silver spacer without doing anything else? (IFP depth changes?)
> Sorry if it was already answered, tried to look through this thread but it's soooo long


If your shock has a travel limiter (not all do), removing it will increase the stroke, without affecting eye-to-eye. Since IFP depth is set at top-out, it shouldn't affect the depth setting either.

You will get an immediate bump in compression ratio, so keep that in mind, in case you want to preemptively compensate with main air volume.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

When the mara pro first launched there was talk about being able to buy different compression shim stacks to install at home. Did this ever eventuate? I cannot find them listed anywhere. 



Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

thedrizzle said:


> When the mara pro first launched there was talk about being able to buy different compression shim stacks to install at home. Did this ever eventuate? I cannot find them listed anywhere.
> 
> Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk


You can buy shims everywhere on ebay and so on. Just get some different thin and thicker ones to try out. As it is so easy wirh the loader just have a try yourself. One shim is around 1-2 dollars so it is cheap anyway


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

Question about the eyelet and shock hardware. I'm so used to the bare 15mm Fox and RS eyelets. But is the Mara 15mm without that bushing or 15mm with that bushing in?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

almazing said:


> Question about the eyelet and shock hardware. I'm so used to the bare 15mm Fox and RS eyelets. But is the Mara 15mm without that bushing or 15mm with that bushing in?


15.08mm (19/32") with an empty eyelet.
12.7mm (1/2") approx with a DU bushing or Fox style IGUS bushing installed.


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

Has anybody tried using the Mara Pro on the IBIS MOJO 4? The Fox Float DPS factory it comes with is really not meant for somebody that weighs as much as me (220 lbs). I pumped it up to 280 psi (equalizing the negative as well) but still can't hit the 25-30 percent sag. 

I have a Mara Pro on my Commencal META TR but I noticed IBIS is using the largest red volume spacer on the DPS - i'm assuming that they are relying on the progression from the shock because the frame wasn't design with much progression.

Given that there's really no good easy way to add volume spacers to the Mara Pro, should I try it or go for something else?


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

I ran a Mara Pro on a Mojo 4 HD and it was really really good.

That frame wasn't super progressive which would cause some issues when trying out coil shocks.

For my two cents the Float X2 was really good on that frame and the Mara Pro was equal or better without the downsides of the X2 (maintenance, some model years seem to have esoteric issues).

Mara Pro is one of those shocks that sort of disappears on the bike where it is there, it handles your biz, but you don't really have to think about it doing that while you are riding.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

funks said:


> Has anybody tried using the Mara Pro on the IBIS MOJO 4? The Fox Float DPS factory it comes with is really not meant for somebody that weighs as much as me (220 lbs). I pumped it up to 280 psi (equalizing the negative as well) but still can't hit the 25-30 percent sag.
> 
> I have a Mara Pro on my Commencal META TR but I noticed IBIS is using the largest red volume spacer on the DPS - i'm assuming that they are relying on the progression from the shock because the frame wasn't design with much progression.
> 
> Given that there's really no good easy way to add volume spacers to the Mara Pro, should I try it or go for something else?


The reason some shocks have such a wide variety of air-spring volume spacers is because they need it. When you've got a better damper you don't need to spend all the time trying to cover for it with spring tweaking.
There are clip-in outer can volume spacers for the King-Can Mara's (all Pro's are King Can): Mara Air Can Volume Spacer Kit (Manitou) | Shockcraft


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

Dougal said:


> The reason some shocks have such a wide variety of air-spring volume spacers is because they need it. When you've got a better damper you don't need to spend all the time trying to cover for it with spring tweaking.
> There are clip-in outer can volume spacers for the King-Can Mara's (all Pro's are King Can): Mara Air Can Volume Spacer Kit (Manitou) | Shockcraft


Thanks Dougal, I decided to order the "Mara" inline. I believe it should be better than this DPS.

The frame is spec'd for 210x50 which I believe comes with the king can, so I should be able to use the volume spacer kit if needed.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

funks said:


> "Mara" inline
> 
> 210x50 which I believe comes with the king can


Unfortunately it does not, it comes with the regular can.


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

rete said:


> Unfortunately it does not, it comes with the regular can.


Man - oh well, let's see how it works..


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## spokeywheeler (Dec 1, 2006)

funks said:


> Man - oh well, let's see how it works..


I think you may be ok with the standard can. I have a Mara Pro on my Ripmo V4, and I added 2 extra RS volume spacers beyond what it came with stock (3) which pretty much filled up the king can. Without them I have around 10% sag at the correct spring rate and it still bottoms easily. On the other hand I have a Mara IL on my Ripley V4 with the standard can and I am able to set up the spring rate no problem with the correct amount of sag and end stroke ramp up right out of the box. Overall I like it better than the Mara Pro, in terms of the spring curve, and I may consider getting a standard can for the Pro.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

spokeywheeler said:


> I think you may be ok with the standard can. I have a Mara Pro on my Ripmo V4, and I added 2 extra RS volume spacers beyond what it came with stock (3) which pretty much filled up the king can. Without them I have around 10% sag at the correct spring rate and it still bottoms easily. On the other hand I have a Mara IL on my Ripley V4 with the standard can and I am able to set up the spring rate no problem with the correct amount of sag and end stroke ramp up right out of the box. Overall I like it better than the Mara Pro, in terms of the spring curve, and I may consider getting a standard can for the Pro.


I keep meaning to list up my standard air can, it's off a 210x55. I paid $80 for it and used it for a few weeks, but went back to the king can. I'd take $50/shipped for it? Or make an offer.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

funks said:


> Man - oh well, let's see how it works..


Not to discourage you, but in my humble opinion the Mara inline is just not worth it any more at Hayes' new prices. For inlines you can get a Cane Creek DBAir IL from the German MTB suppliers for the same price in your hands as a Mara IL and the CC is a better performing shock in every conceivable way.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

rete said:


> Not to discourage you, but in my humble opinion the Mara inline is just not worth it any more at Hayes' new prices. For inlines you can get a Cane Creek DBAir IL from the German MTB suppliers for the same price in your hands as a Mara IL and the CC is a better performing shock in every conceivable way.


Any thoughts any their Kitsuma?
Considering one for a Spesh Evo.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rete said:


> Not to discourage you, but in my humble opinion the Mara inline is just not worth it any more at Hayes' new prices. For inlines you can get a Cane Creek DBAir IL from the German MTB suppliers for the same price in your hands as a Mara IL and the CC is a better performing shock in every conceivable way.


I tell people that want a Cane Creek to buy the big double barrel. It's a lot more robust and reliable.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I don't know why anyone subjects themselves to CC's garbage suspension anymore, all it takes is a peek into the mtbr thread to see that nothing has changed. That would be one thing if they didn't think their customers were all idiots... You could at least get an x2 and have the same basic design from a much better company!


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

WHALENARD said:


> Any thoughts any their Kitsuma?
> Considering one for a Spesh Evo.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


I know a local rider that snapped their Kitsuma in half. So that's always nice.



ungod said:


> I don't know why anyone subjects themselves to CC's garbage suspension anymore, all it takes is a peek into the mtbr thread to see that nothing has changed. That would be one thing if they didn't think their customers were all idiots... You could at least get an x2 and have the same basic design from a much better company!


Ah yes. Fox. The better company that doesn't half-ass their new releases. They certainly have no problems with their new X2s. None at all. Well, except for this. On a brand new 21/22 Float X2. Read the comments. This is not an isolated issue.


__
http://instagr.am/p/CPEx1QiBOh3/


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

almazing said:


> I know a local rider that snapped their Kitsuma in half. So that's always nice.


Air or coil? 
I see several have snapped the head off the the pre-Kitsuma DB air shocks but wasn't sure if Cane Creek rectified this or not with the Kitsuma. The new Stumpy Evo is prone to snapping shafts so this is a concern for sure.

X2's and larger volume air can shocks just don't work for me. With that said not sure if the Kitsuma would present the same volume issue or not having never run one of their shocks before.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

WHALENARD said:


> Air or coil?
> I see several have snapped the head off the the pre-Kitsuma DB air shocks but wasn't sure if Cane Creek rectified this or not with the Kitsuma. The new Stumpy Evo is prone to snapping shafts so this is a concern for sure.


Air and it happened on the new Spesh Enduro with the 6-bar suspension. Also, a 'Tiffany' assembled the shock. So if you buy one that Tiffany assembled, I'd be worried like the other local who just bought a Kitsuma assembled by Tiffany.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

almazing said:


> Air and it happened on the new Spesh Enduro with the 6-bar suspension. Also, a 'Tiffany' assembled the shock. So if you buy one that Tiffany assembled, I'd be worried like the other local who just bought a Kitsuma assembled by Tiffany.


Probably down to other issues outside of the suspension brand. Once Specialized can make a straight frame with linkages that all move freely I will take an interest on what happens to shocks in those frames.


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## nmxtrdr (Sep 30, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> Once Specialized can make a straight frame with linkages that all move freely I will take an interest on what happens to shocks in those frames.


Truth


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Rick Draper said:


> Probably down to other issues outside of the suspension brand. Once Specialized can make a straight frame with linkages that all move freely I will take an interest on what happens to shocks in those frames.







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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rick Draper said:


> Probably down to other issues outside of the suspension brand. Once Specialized can make a straight frame with linkages that all move freely I will take an interest on what happens to shocks in those frames.


But will they still offset the shock so every compression flexes the shock like a banana?


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## weverb (Jun 29, 2011)

Oof you people are harsh. 😅 I am seriously considering adding a Mara Pro to my '21 Stumpjumper (non-Evo). About to pull the trigger and order one. 😁


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

weverb said:


> Oof you people are harsh.  I am seriously considering adding a Mara Pro to my '21 Stumpjumper (non-Evo). About to pull the trigger and order one.


That's how specialized got suspension to work... they just eliminated the pivots 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

World first?










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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

spokeywheeler said:


> I think you may be ok with the standard can. I have a Mara Pro on my Ripmo V4, and I added 2 extra RS volume spacers beyond what it came with stock (3) which pretty much filled up the king can. Without them I have around 10% sag at the correct spring rate and it still bottoms easily. On the other hand I have a Mara IL on my Ripley V4 with the standard can and I am able to set up the spring rate no problem with the correct amount of sag and end stroke ramp up right out of the box. Overall I like it better than the Mara Pro, in terms of the spring curve, and I may consider getting a standard can for the Pro.


Got the Mara Inline installed today and only needed 165 psi to hit 28% sag (14mm) @ 220 lbs kitted up (did the air can reset). Much better than the Fox Factory Float DPS it replaced which I had to pump up to 280+ psi plus and I still couldn't hit proper sag (making sure I equalized the negative while pumping every 50 psi).


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

CCS86 said:


> World first?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have to share more than photos.


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

CCS86 said:


> World first?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's this? Obviously you weren't cc'd on *the* memo. I'll recap. _The air spring curve on these shocks is perfect, don't modify._

With that out the way, part info please.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Cary said:


> You have to share more than photos.





rete said:


> What's this? Obviously you weren't cc'd on *the* memo. I'll recap. _The air spring curve on these shocks is perfect, don't modify._
> 
> With that out the way, part info please.


Hahaha. Those who have read through this enormous thread will have seen that the spring curve is the one thing I have wanted to improve. I still love this shock, and it's amazing how good it can feel with so little sag. But, I am rarely content to just accept things the way they are... So, I have been dreaming on how best to add a negative chamber fill valve.

It's no small feat though. The air can is so well optimized for weight, that there is barely any material to tap threads. I considered trying to tap threads at an angle, sneaking the valve behind the bottom seals on the king can:










But, I decided there is just not enough meat there, and the risk of intersecting the seal groove is high.

Next, I considered using high grade epoxy to graft a chunk of material onto the outside of the air can cylinder, to hold the threads. This could definitely work, but you are relying 100% on the adhesive, and you are limited by the piggyback for how high you can go.

I may still go that route if my new plan fails. What I have going now, is a custom negative chamber spacer to replace the (2) 7mm thick delrin spacers. This printed part has threads for the Rockshox BAR air valve and an o-ring groove for sealing to the inside of the air can. There is one more printed part on the outside which just distributes force onto the can OD and gives the valve a flat flange.

The biggest question at the moment, is will the plastic threads survive. Even at negative pressures of 300 psi, the valve only sees about 10 pounds of force. So, it is totally possible. If they fail, I will make a metal thread insert for the spacer.

The beauty of this design is that I can print spacers with varying density, to achieve different negative chamber volumes. so, I have gained two new tuning parameters to iron out the spring curve.


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## mike156 (Jul 10, 2017)

Interesting approach and great idea.

Is the spacer thick enough that you could imbed a thin nut in there? Some of the Schrader nuts are very thin and steel. Then the spacer is used to hold it in position during assembly, act as a washer against the curved surface, and hold the sealing oring.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

mike156 said:


> Interesting approach and great idea.
> 
> Is the spacer thick enough that you could imbed a thin nut in there? Some of the Schrader nuts are very thin and steel. Then the spacer is used to hold it in position during assembly, act as a washer against the curved surface, and hold the sealing oring.


Yup, I have a pack of thin nuts on the way.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

CCS86 said:


> Yup, I have a pack of thin nuts on the way.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


There is a good quip to be had, I am just not finding it.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Hahaha. Those who have read through this enormous thread will have seen that the spring curve is the one thing I have wanted to improve. I still love this shock, and it's amazing how good it can feel with so little sag. But, I am rarely content to just accept things the way they are... So, I have been dreaming on how best to add a negative chamber fill valve.
> 
> It's no small feat though. The air can is so well optimized for weight, that there is barely any material to tap threads. I considered trying to tap threads at an angle, sneaking the valve behind the bottom seals on the king can:
> 
> ...


So, the outer valve you added allows you to add negative spring pressure?


CCS86 said:


> World first?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate DIY tweaks like this but it make me question if the Mara Pro spring curve is out of whack if you need to tweak it that much via drilling into the can. Does the valve allow you to create a negative spring in the can? I just ordered this shock a few days ago and I'm already questioning if I should have stuck with a Topaz. The Topaz is pretty much a set and forget shock which I appreciate since I don't have time to tinker these days.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

DirtDiggler said:


> So, the outer valve you added allows you to add negative spring pressure?
> 
> I appreciate DIY tweaks like this but it make me question if the Mara Pro spring curve is out of whack if you need to tweak it that much via drilling into the can. Does the valve allow you to create a negative spring in the can? I just ordered this shock a few days ago and I'm already questioning if I should have stuck with a Topaz. The Topaz is pretty much a set and forget shock which I appreciate since I don't have time to tinker these days.


Yes, I can change the pressure and the volume of the negative chamber now. There is already a negative spring, but it is "fixed" in a sense, since it uses captured air, not an equalization dimple.

If the Mara spring curve was "out of whack", it wouldn't be such a universally loved shock. I personally think it is a much better shock than the Topaz.

Nobody "needs" to do this mod. I want more control over the spring curve, and this gives it to me.


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

DirtDiggler said:


> So, the outer valve you added allows you to add negative spring pressure?
> 
> I appreciate DIY tweaks like this but it make me question if the Mara Pro spring curve is out of whack if you need to tweak it that much via drilling into the can. Does the valve allow you to create a negative spring in the can? I just ordered this shock a few days ago and I'm already questioning if I should have stuck with a Topaz. The Topaz is pretty much a set and forget shock which I appreciate since I don't have time to tinker these days.


Some people just need to tweak stuff in pursuit of their version of perfection.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Looks better in black.









Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## spokeywheeler (Dec 1, 2006)

CCS86 said:


> Looks better in black.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow that's rad. What are your impressions so far? Being able to adjust both negative pressure and volume gives a lot of different options to experiment with. I think the setup on my Mara Pro would be improved with increased negative pressure, and perhaps more negative volume as well. Curious to hear your thoughts!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

spokeywheeler said:


> Wow that's rad. What are your impressions so far? Being able to adjust both negative pressure and volume gives a lot of different options to experiment with. I think the setup on my Mara Pro would be improved with increased negative pressure, and perhaps more negative volume as well. Curious to hear your thoughts!


So, my only struggle with the Mara has been that in order to get enough bottom out support, I have had to run a main pressure that left me with 15% sag. I mitigated some of this by fully packing the outer can with spacers/grease, and adding extra grease onto the top of the air piston. This bumped the compression ratio enough to lower main pressure slightly.

This shock feels incredibly supple for how little sag I was running, but I really want to see how it feels with more sag.

I haven't ridden on this setup yet, but am taking it to the downhill park tomorrow. I'm super glad that my first prototype held pressure, because the next eight iterations of the design failed to hold any meaningful pressure at all. I surely would have gotten discouraged without the initial success. I finally figured out which aspects were important to success and my latest revision held 300 PSI overnight. I have a pack of steel nuts out for delivery right now, so I can ditch the plastic threads and have more confidence in the whole setup.

Impressions in the garage are great so far. With a higher main pressure than I normally run, I can basically choose my sag amount by adjusting the negative chamber pressure. Very excited to take it for a ride tomorrow and will definitely report back on the results.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> So, my only struggle with the Mara has been that in order to get enough bottom out support, I have had to run a main pressure that left me with 15% sag. I mitigated some of this by fully packing the outer can with spacers/grease, and adding extra grease onto the top of the air piston. This bumped the compression ratio enough to lower main pressure slightly.
> 
> This shock feels incredibly supple for how little sag I was running, but I really want to see how it feels with more sag.
> 
> ...


I admire your determination on this. It would be cool if Hayes offered an upgraded can with a valve for a reasonable cost. I would definitely pay for it just to have one more thing to customize. I would like to hear how it holds up at a bike park!


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

almazing said:


> Some people just need to tweak stuff in pursuit of their version of perfection.


Valid point. It's enjoyable to experiment and get an improvement even if it's incremental. I guess I'm just nervous with my weight that I'm not going to find a sweet spot with this shock after reading some of the online reviews.


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## weverb (Jun 29, 2011)

CCS86 did you try the RockShox Counter Measure spring mod too? Can't wait to read your results.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Yes, I can change the pressure and the volume of the negative chamber now. There is already a negative spring, but it is "fixed" in a sense, since it uses captured air, not an equalization dimple.
> 
> If the Mara spring curve was "out of whack", it wouldn't be such a universally loved shock. I personally think it is a much better shock than the Topaz.
> 
> Nobody "needs" to do this mod. I want more control over the spring curve, and this gives it to me.


Damn....better than a Topaz?? Wow, I'm expecting a lot then. My Topaz took a few days of experimenting with the negative and positive volume rings and once it was setup correctly it was like riding on a magic carpet. Perfect mid stroke support and SB compliance. That said, I like trying new things which is why I wanted to try a Mara Pro. My last Manitou shock was the ISX-6 about 10 years ago.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

weverb said:


> CCS86 did you try the RockShox Counter Measure spring mod too? Can't wait to read your results.


I was already balls deep in this project before someone pointed me to that thread (I should really start browsing more often).

I think that is a cool approach too (much simpler in execution) and that became a very likely backup plan if I failed. The drawback is that you wouldn't get the tuneability. It would take a pretty comprehensive assortment of springs (different rates, extended / compressed lengths) and complimentary spacers (to maintain the correct stack height), in order to dial in.

I have two extra levers now: density of my printed part to change negative volume, and set pressure. Changing volume obviously requires disassembly, but pressure changes are so easy and have a big affect.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## rete (Sep 23, 2019)

DirtDiggler said:


> Damn....better than a Topaz?? Wow, I'm expecting a lot then. My Topaz took a few days of experimenting with the negative and positive volume rings and once it was setup correctly it was like riding on a magic carpet. Perfect mid stroke support and SB compliance. That said, I like trying new things which is why I wanted to try a Mara Pro. My last Manitou shock was the ISX-6 about 10 years ago.


Other's experience may not line up with yours.

For example, I don't ride in Texas, I ride here - natural alpine, up--up--up, very little park...










...and I prefer the spring characteristics of Cane Creek's LinEair over my Mara Pro (and - for that matter - inline Mara and McLeod).


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

DirtDiggler said:


> I just ordered this shock a few days ago and I'm already questioning if I should have stuck with a Topaz. The Topaz is pretty much a set and forget shock which I appreciate since I don't have time to tinker these days.


I was running a Topaz T3 before getting the Mara Pro. The Mara is a better shock than the Topaz in every way, plusher off the top and more supportive at the end of the stroke. YMMV, but I think you'll be stoked.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

rete said:


> Other's experience may not line up with yours.
> 
> For example, I don't ride in Texas, I ride here - natural alpine, up--up--up, very little park...
> 
> ...


Wow! You are lucky. I'm mostly doing aggressive trail riding with a mix of up and down.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

RMCDan said:


> I was running a Topaz T3 before getting the Mara Pro. The Mara is a better shock than the Topaz in every way, plusher off the top and more supportive at the end of the stroke. YMMV, but I think you'll be stoked.


 Awesome - I can't wait!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

DirtDiggler said:


> Damn....better than a Topaz?? Wow, I'm expecting a lot then. My Topaz took a few days of experimenting with the negative and positive volume rings and once it was setup correctly it was like riding on a magic carpet. Perfect mid stroke support and SB compliance. That said, I like trying new things which is why I wanted to try a Mara Pro. My last Manitou shock was the ISX-6 about 10 years ago.


Completely different setup between the two. The Topaz doesn't have much compression damping at all. The Mara has a solid amount.


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

I have a Mara Pro 210x50 brand new I never ended up using but now need a 210x55...

Do I have any options to get the 55 stroke?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

TraxFactory said:


> I have a Mara Pro 210x50 brand new I never ended up using but now need a 210x55...
> 
> Do I have any options to get the 55 stroke?


Yup, just pull the internal 5mm travel limiter. You will need to rebleed the damper.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Well, my negative air mod worked beautifully during a day of beating on it at the bike park. The two things that improved the most for me:

Rear grip while braking and entering corners. Going from ~15% sag to ~25% keeps it from topping out so quickly on steeper descents, on the brakes, and turning in. I would sometimes loose the rear when entering corners, but it really feels hooked up now.
It let me open the shock rebound a couple clicks, while preserving the balance off jumps. I think the stiffer first 1/3 of stroke (before mod) forced more rebound damping to avoid the OTB jump balance. With a less aggressive return to top out, less damping is needed to control this.
Here's a quick run down the newest trail, which has a fun mix of features. It was about 96* out, and I was fading at this point. So, be gentle


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## kimochi (Jan 21, 2019)

Wonder if anybody can help -
1. How hard is it to add a travel limiting spacer? My goal is to make a 216x60. So I guess I should get a 216x63 and add a spacer? 
2. Actually, my goal is to make a 214x60. Is this possible? 
3. Will this fit my frame which currently has a FOX DPS EVOL?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Here's a quick run down the newest trail, which has a fun mix of features. It was about 96* out, and I was fading at this point. So, be gentle


It looks like you're riding in cuff-links and gardening gloves.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> It looks like you're riding in cuff-links and gardening gloves.




The last time I clipped a tree with my hand, I decided that MTB gloves and their near zero knuckle protection weren't going to cut it.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

rete said:


> Other's experience may not line up with yours.
> 
> For example, I don't ride in Texas, I ride here - natural alpine, up--up--up, very little park...
> 
> ...


May I ask what frame you ride those shocks with? So, I've had two CC inlines and one DB Air CS in the past. Still have them on my shelf from years ago. Really did not like those shocks at all since they were so stiff off the top and felt overly damped. Blew through 3 CC inlines. I finally gave up and I never bothered with the 'IL upgrade'. Is the LinEair spring that much different than the past air springs? I ordered the Mara Pro for a GG TrailPistol which is basically a horst link bike. Still a bit nervous how this will perform on this setup as it's not exactly a budget shock.


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## Carmel (Apr 21, 2014)

Has anybody here fit a Mara Pro to one of the KS2 Banshees?
I can confirm that a stock 205x65 does not fit in a Titan (got both right here ) but I was wondering if it might with the shorter reservoir. Comparing with a DVO Jade and a TriAir I have here it might still be too close, kinda hard to measure accurately.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Carmel said:


> Has anybody here fit a Mara Pro to one of the KS2 Banshees?
> I can confirm that a stock 205x65 does not fit in a Titan (got both right here ) but I was wondering if it might with the shorter reservoir. Comparing with a DVO Jade and a TriAir I have here it might still be too close, kinda hard to measure accurately.


185 fits fine on a Prime.


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

I need to figure out why my shock has as the sudden starting puking oil out of it. I think pretty much all the oil was forced out at the shaft. There is no damage or wear on the shaft. Guess I'll be pulling it and taking it apart tomorrow. I have a seal kit on the way. One day riding a couple weeks ago I thought I was low on air as it felt like it was riding way low and just felt mushy. Of course I have a Colorado trip coming up in a couple weeks! I will call Hayes Monday, I ran out of time to get that done today.

Anybody have any ideas of what could cause this to suddenly hemorrhage? The bike was in the trailer for about a week in 100 degree weather so it was probably 120 in the trailer.

@CCS86

The new Spider trails look fun! We haven't made it down since a bunch of the new stuff went in.


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

It is the set screw on the shock shaft that is the damper bleed screw that's leaking. 

Oh well it's due for a service anyway. I'll get it serviced and back up and rolling! I'm glad it was just that and nothing broken or failed.


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## gillyske (Jun 20, 2019)

I'm trying to get a shock that will work with my Merida eone sixty. It has a leverage ratio curve different to anything posted here.

The dpx2 it came with was ok, but i had to run it close to 280 psi to get sag and it felt quite harsh over repeated hits.
Im currently using a xfusion hc3 coil and I'm having trouble with settling on a spring rate and it probably feels even worse than the dpx2.

Would the Mara pro suit this bike?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

gillyske said:


> I'm trying to get a shock that will work with my Merida eone sixty. It has a leverage ratio curve different to anything posted here.
> 
> The dpx2 it came with was ok, but i had to run it close to 280 psi to get sag and it felt quite harsh over repeated hits.
> Im currently using a xfusion hc3 coil and I'm having trouble with settling on a spring rate and it probably feels even worse than the dpx2.
> ...


You have a damn near linear leverage curve, so you need a very progressive shock. It will depend to some degree on what shock size you need. Longer stroke versions will have a higher compression ratio.

You would want to get one with a standard can, or fully pack the outer can with spacers and grease, maybe even putting extra grease on top of the air piston to further reduce volume.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## gillyske (Jun 20, 2019)

CCS86 said:


> You have a damn near linear leverage curve, so you need a very progressive shock. It will depend to some degree on what shock size you need. Longer stroke versions will have a higher compression ratio.
> 
> You would want to get one with a standard can, or fully pack the outer can with spacers and grease, maybe even putting extra grease on top of the air piston to further reduce volume.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


It's a trunnion 205/65 length. 
I've tried running progressive springs on it and it's either too wallowy or too harsh. I was hoping that since the mara doesn't need as much air that it would be more supple. Are there other shocks that work well on linear bikes?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

gillyske said:


> It's a trunnion 205/65 length.
> I've tried running progressive springs on it and it's either too wallowy or too harsh. I was hoping that since the mara doesn't need as much air that it would be more supple. Are there other shocks that work well on linear bikes?


I'd say an air shock is an air shock to a certain degree. For the same stroke, there shouldn't be too vast a difference in compression ratio between brands. All can be adjusted by one means or another.

With a 65mm stroke, I'd say you are in good shape to get a Mara working well for you.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## gillyske (Jun 20, 2019)

CCS86 said:


> I'd say an air shock is an air shock to a certain degree. For the same stroke, there shouldn't be too vast a difference in compression ratio between brands. All can be adjusted by one means or another.
> 
> With a 65mm stroke, I'd say you are in good shape to get a Mara working well for you.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


Thanks for your advice. I think i will put the dpx2 back on my bike and pre order a mara pro. Was also considering the topaz but i think the problem in getting the dpx2 to work is i have the model without any compression adjustments. That's why the mara is so appealing. Also it would match my mezzer


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## weverb (Jun 29, 2011)

Finally was able to get the Mara Pro mounted on my '21 Stumpjumper. Had to purchase the regular can and still barely fits. Can slide a piece of paper between the frame and the reservoir. 😬 So much better the FOX DPS it replaced.


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## seitenryu (Oct 15, 2009)

I've seen that the Mara Pro has a short reservoir option. What stroke range is it compatible with?


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## Kiwibaconator (Jul 7, 2021)

seitenryu said:


> I've seen that the Mara Pro has a short reservoir option. What stroke range is it compatible with?


It doesn't have a short reservoir option, it has two reservoir lengths. The short reservoir comes on 210 and shorter eyelet, and 185 and shorter trunnion versions.

The long reservoir is 15mm longer than the short reservoir.

You can build any Mara Pro with any reservoir.


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## seitenryu (Oct 15, 2009)

Kiwibaconator said:


> The long reservoir is 15mm longer than the short reservoir.
> 
> You can build any Mara Pro with any reservoir.


Cool, so either will fit any shock.

My curiosity was mainly in relation to fitment on a Nicolai Saturn 14, since it only fits "sometimes". The stock size of 210 x 50 would already have the short length, there's no chance of getting more clearance. I've reached out to them, as there seems to be a little ambiguity on this.


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## spo0n (Nov 7, 2020)

Kiwibaconator said:


> It doesn't have a short reservoir option, it has two reservoir lengths. The short reservoir comes on 210 and shorter eyelet, and 185 and shorter trunnion versions.
> 
> The long reservoir is 15mm longer than the short reservoir.
> 
> You can build any Mara Pro with any reservoir.


So maybe getting one on my Titan isn't out of the question after all


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## Kiwibaconator (Jul 7, 2021)

spo0n said:


> So maybe getting one on my Titan isn't out of the question after all


It doesn't spell it out but this is the short reservoir SKU: 142-37512-K026


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

seitenryu said:


> I've seen that the Mara Pro has a short reservoir option. What stroke range is it compatible with?


Up to 65mm no problem. I haven't checked on bigger strokes.


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## spo0n (Nov 7, 2020)

Is there any chance of a coil from Manitou in the future? I would definitely be into a coil shock with Mara damper design


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## smearin (May 3, 2021)

spo0n said:


> Is there any chance of a coil from Manitou in the future? I would definitely be into a coil shock with Mara damper design


100% yes!
Coil damper with the removable shim stacks of the mara pro. Ease of servicing.
Pretty please Manitou? Imagine how nicely it would go with the new Dorado!!


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

smearin said:


> 100% yes!
> Coil damper with the removable shim stacks of the mara pro. Ease of servicing.
> Pretty please Manitou? Imagine how nicely it would go with the new Dorado!!


They could call it a Revox.


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## Carmel (Apr 21, 2014)

spo0n said:


> So maybe getting one on my Titan isn't out of the question after all


I will find out soon enough, I have the Mara Pro already and the short reservoir is on its way. I second the coil shock though, since the Titan works so damn well with the DVO Jade (which is a super tight fit as well).


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## GCLASS (Jul 30, 2021)

Hello, there!!

I installed a MARA Pro in my Orbea Rise and recently, I decided to open the Compression assembly (LSC/HSC) to verify if the shims were already installed in the Shock and they aren't. So i have two (2) questions, does anyone knows if the shims are available so we can make custom compression settings? and second question is, as a result of opening the compression Assy. now the shock have created a squishing sound, does this require priming the shock?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

GCLASS said:


> Hello, there!!
> 
> I installed a MARA Pro in my Orbea Rise and recently, I decided to open the Compression assembly (LSC/HSC) to verify if the shims were already installed in the Shock and they aren't. So i have two (2) questions, does anyone knows if the shims are available so we can make custom compression settings? and second question is, as a result of opening the compression Assy. now the shock have created a squishing sound, does this require priming the shock?


Shims are installed in the assembly from the factory, if they were not, the shock would have no dampening. You have introduced air into the assembly so will now have to bleed the shock. I would not recommend playing with the shim stacks in the shock unless you have a specific tune that has been recommended. Randomly changing shims without an understanding of what changes you want and what changing different shims will do is a recipe for disaster.


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## GCLASS (Jul 30, 2021)

Cary said:


> Shims are installed in the assembly from the factory, if they were not, the shock would have no dampening. You have introduced air into the assembly so will now have to bleed the shock. I would not recommend playing with the shim stacks in the shock unless you have a specific tune that has been recommended. Randomly changing shims without an understanding of what changes you want and what changing different shims will do is a recipe for disaster.


Thanks for advise.. i noticed there is only one shim, so no space for playing around with the configuration.

So, in order to bleed the shock, i guess i should follow the procedure mentioned on this thread, correct? or there is an easier way?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GCLASS said:


> Hello, there!!
> 
> I installed a MARA Pro in my Orbea Rise and recently, I decided to open the Compression assembly (LSC/HSC) to verify if the shims were already installed in the Shock and they aren't. So i have two (2) questions, does anyone knows if the shims are available so we can make custom compression settings? and second question is, as a result of opening the compression Assy. now the shock have created a squishing sound, does this require priming the shock?


The squishing noise is because you have air in the oil now. Do you need help finding the shims?


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## GCLASS (Jul 30, 2021)

Dougal said:


> The squishing noise is because you have air in the oil now. Do you need help finding the shims?


thanks for the feedback, can you advise on the procedure to prime the system?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

GCLASS said:


> thanks for the feedback, can you advise on the procedure to prime the system?





https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/360071701094/Mara_Pro_Piggyback_Complete_Service_Guide.pdf


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## GCLASS (Jul 30, 2021)

So, have anyone on this forum has experienced this? I have a leaky IFP.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GCLASS said:


> Hello, there!!
> 
> I installed a MARA Pro in my Orbea Rise and recently, I decided to open the Compression assembly (LSC/HSC) to verify if the shims were already installed in the Shock and they aren't. So i have two (2) questions, does anyone knows if the shims are available so we can make custom compression settings? and second question is, as a result of opening the compression Assy. now the shock have created a squishing sound, does this require priming the shock?


The compression shims on the base-valve are on the outside of the removed base-valve assembly. Stock mine have 2x 6x14x0.2mm shims on an 8mm clamp shim with a 0.25mm shim underneath to limit preload.

But initial preload appears to be adjustable with the stack thickness and possibly nut tension. So it's not a game for beginners. Mark the nut for rotational position before you do anything.


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## GCLASS (Jul 30, 2021)

Dougal said:


> The compression shims on the base-valve are on the outside of the removed base-valve assembly. Stock mine have 2x 6x14x0.2mm shims on an 8mm clamp shim with a 0.25mm shim underneath to limit preload.
> 
> But initial preload appears to be adjustable with the stack thickness and possibly nut tension. So it's not a game for beginners. Mark the nut for rotational position before you do anything.


Thanks Dougal, fortunately, i haven't done anything related the shims except for removing the entire Assembly from the shock body to verify, so i will take your advise. However, the more recent finding with the leaky / blown IFP really got me thinking on what happened..


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

GCLASS said:


> Thanks Dougal, fortunately, i haven't done anything related the shims except for removing the entire Assembly from the shock body to verify, so i will take your advise. However, the more recent finding with the leaky / blown IFP really got me thinking on what happened..


A little bit of fluid on the "dry" side of the IFP doesn't mean it is leaky or blown.

It's very possible that this fluid was present during assembly and can actually help keep the chamber walls lubricated for smooth operation.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## GCLASS (Jul 30, 2021)

CCS86 said:


> A little bit of fluid on the "dry" side of the IFP doesn't mean it is leaky or blown.
> 
> It's very possible that this fluid was present during assembly and can actually help keep the chamber walls lubricated for smooth operation.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


CCS86, I wish you were right, however, i have a video of bubbles coming out of the IFP. Not mentioning that i got oil squirted from the schrader valve when i released the IFP pressure.






The picture actually shows a bubble...


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

GCLASS said:


> CCS86, I wish you were right, however, i have a video of bubbles coming out of the IFP. Not mentioning that i got oil squirted from the schrader valve when i released the IFP pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, that is a different story!

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## gillyske (Jun 20, 2019)

Just got my mara pro.

Can anyone give me a run down of how to install volume spacers into the king can, can you do it while the bike is on the frame? Also from factory is the king can set up for full volume? What exactly does the o ring in the middle of the can do? I'm trying to increase progression on my linear frame.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

gillyske said:


> Just got my mara pro.
> 
> Can anyone give me a run down of how to install volume spacers into the king can, can you do it while the bike is on the frame? Also from factory is the king can set up for full volume? What exactly does the o ring in the middle of the can do? I'm trying to increase progression on my linear frame.


The oring in the middle is to set the can to the smaller volume and the default. I may be incorrect, but I believe you are very limited in further shrinking the volume of the king can. If your frame is very linear and bottoming, you may need to order a regular can. You can use additional high speed compression to add some bottoming control.


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## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

Cary said:


> The oring in the middle is to set the can to the smaller volume and the default. I may be incorrect, but I believe you are very limited in further shrinking the volume of the king can. If your frame is very linear and bottoming, you may need to order a regular can. You can use additional high speed compression to add some bottoming control.


You can use rockshox volume bands to reduce it a little more, think you can fit 3 or 4


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

I’m experiencing a “clunk” at top out. Only ridden three times now, wasn’t clunking until the third ride. Would resetting the air can fix this?


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

afraid said:


> I'm experiencing a "clunk" at top out. Only ridden three times now, wasn't clunking until the third ride. Would resetting the air can fix this?


replying to myself to bump this up. Gotta pick up a huge adjustable wrench to reset this air can still.

Ok got the wrench. Reset the can, lubed the threads and post thing inside (piston?). Rethreaded the can on, following Hayes instructions carefully. Also slid the outer king can off and lubed the orings and dolloped some next to the volume spacer bands (three of them are in there). While sliding the king can back into place it pushed the white guide ring out of place, ****, kinked it a little bit I was able to push it back into place, outer can now slid back on all good. Need to replace that glide ring probably.
Shock still tops out harshly. 
what a pain in the ass. 
thoughts?
I weigh 152 pounds, shock has 112 psi, LSC and HSC all the way out, rebound 5 clicks from closed. I bottomed it out once in three rides.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

afraid said:


> replying to myself to bump this up. Gotta pick up a huge adjustable wrench to reset this air can still.
> 
> Ok got the wrench. Reset the can, lubed the threads and post thing inside (piston?). Rethreaded the can on, following Hayes instructions carefully. Also slid the outer king can off and lubed the orings and dolloped some next to the volume spacer bands (three of them are in there). While sliding the king can back into place it pushed the white guide ring out of place, ****, kinked it a little bit I was able to push it back into place, outer can now slid back on all good. Need to replace that glide ring probably.
> Shock still tops out harshly.
> ...


Got a red top-out pad inside the can?


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Got a red top-out pad inside the can?


I'll check. Thanks!


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

Thanks Dougal, the red foam top out ring is there. I lubed everything up and put it all back together and the top-out clunking is gone. Weird. 
Next question…I notice people quoting the piggyback psi they’ve set, is there a range of settings or is 300 the only choice?


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

Questions on king can volume adjustment:
1. Can you get the outer sleeve off without removing the air can? Just want to try out full volume on my GG Smash. I never use full travel and would like to see if I gain a little mid-stroke support. I'm about 168 lbs riding weight and run 125 psi.

2. Would it make more sense to just take the air can off - so the negative gets reset with the larger volume setting in place?

Thanks!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

aaronka970 said:


> Questions on king can volume adjustment:
> 1. Can you get the outer sleeve off without removing the air can? Just want to try out full volume on my GG Smash. I never use full travel and would like to see if I gain a little mid-stroke support. I'm about 168 lbs riding weight and run 125 psi.
> 
> 2. Would it make more sense to just take the air can off - so the negative gets reset with the larger volume setting in place?
> ...


Technically, I think you could move the outer sleeve far enough to pull the o-rings, while installed (depending on your frame). But, you still need to crack the air can loose in order to get the snap ring off.

An air can reset is the same regardless of the positive chamber size. The negative chamber and trapped charge is unaffected.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

Could someone post a pic of the travel limiting spacer and shaft. When removing is it possible to cut the spacer off and avoid re-bleed? Have not had shock open yet.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

TraxFactory said:


> Could someone post a pic of the travel limiting spacer and shaft. When removing is it possible to cut the spacer off and avoid re-bleed? Have not had shock open yet.











Manitou Mara Pro


So the rebound stopped working. Not sure why, but I now have a pogo stick. No evidence of oil leaking. Going to tear it apart fully and rebuild it based on your detailed instructions. If that doesn't work, it's going to Manitou.




www.mtbr.com





You could cut it off, but if you knick the shaft or ever want to revert travel, you'll probably regret it.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## livefastordont (Aug 29, 2021)

This thread convinced me to get a Mara Pro.
Two separate damping circuits, extreme tunability, and it just looks really well built after looking at closeups and the shock internally.
Dove pretty deep into suspension theory after reading the entire thread and learned a ton.
I really liked reading all of the contributions of everyone here, CCS86 and Dougal in particular, alongside the other people chiming in here and there.


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## Boissal (Aug 24, 2021)

Question for the collective. I've been running a Mara Pro on an Orbea Occam for a few hundred miles now, paired with a Mezzer pro in the front. I've being moving to a more and more linear setting in the front and trying to match that in the rear. I opened the Mara a couple days ago to check how it was setup stock as I felt it was ramping up quite fast. I found a 1/2 volume king can and 3 reducing bands in there. I pulled everything out to get max volume and see if making the rear more linear balanced the bike better. Once reassembled I was surprised at how little pressure increase it took to get back to 30-ish% sag. With the 1/2 can + spacers I was running 145 psi (28%) and with full volume I only needed to go up to 157 (29%). The bike felt great in the parking lot, more of a bottomless feel than previously and no bottom out. Same when riding a really chunky trail, very different feel from what I was used to but with some moderate tweaking I felt I could get it to a happy place. I definitely used all the travel several times but never felt a harsh bottom out. 

The following day I went out for a big ride and added 2 PSI to the shock to firm things up a bit. Bouncing around the parking lot though the shock felt way too soft, I was blowing through travel and could bottom out with a hard clank at the end. I didn't have a shock pump to check things but it seemed like the shock could be losing air. Within a couple hours sag looked to be round 45% with no support and constant bottom outs. I got home and checked the pressure and it hadn't dropped. I had to go up to 185 psi to get back to 29% sag. Plenty of support, no bottom outs, everything felt right.

I'm struggling to figures this one out. Is it possible that the slickoleum I used on the split ring (the only thing left in the middle groove of the king can) somehow managed to act as a temporary o-ring and gave me an artificially low volume on my first day of riding? Seems very unlikely it would survive 1.5 hours of riding then suddenly get distributed enough on the next ride to give me access to the full can, dropping the pressure significantly.
What kind of pressure change have you guys needed when going from 1/2 to full can (or the other way around)?


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## livefastordont (Aug 29, 2021)

I had questions for CCS86.
I noticed that you map out the compression ratio of the shock, and projected how the shock would be at top and bottom out.
You then modified negative air so that you could run higher pressures to get a more ideal CR and sag without bumping up pressures, while still keeping a good sag to keep it supple r'm assuming?
Do you think that you could achieve a similar result with the countermeasure RS spring?
I'm kind of confused as to what the topout and bottomout pressures represented.
Is that total pressure inside of the shock?

Also, did you manage to stop blowing through the midstroke?
I plan on doing this by just increasing the compression damping and slightly higher pressures, with an RS countermeasure spring to keep the suppleness, but I'm wondering if your increased CR and negative air helped with that at all, or just moved it further down into the travel.

I don't have the materials to make a negative air nozzle like you did, and it seems like you had to make quite a few prototypes to get one that didn't leak.
Very cool to watch that unfold though.
The ability to tune negative air is something that really drew me towards a topaz, but the ability to learn how to and eventually modify shim stacks by just unscrewing the dials/ifp chamber really made me want to start toying around with how to figure that out with damping.

Would you think that it would also be possible to tune the negative air chamber with a notched can that equalizes?
That's something that I might be able to realistically do with a dremel.
You mentioned that the can is already super optimized for weight though, and that there is almost no material to remove.
Do you think that there would be any benefits to equalizing the negative air, or do you much prefer your tuneable nozzle method?

Thanks!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Sounds like your positive pressure is leaking into the negative chamber during compressions.

I'd pull the air can and carefully inspect the inner wall for scratches and the main seal for damage.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Boissal (Aug 24, 2021)

I just realized I left the back-up split ring in the middle groove when I pulled the o-ring that divides the can. No idea what I was thinking but I gotta get in there and remove it first then re-assess. I'll check the inside of the can for damage while I'm a it. Makes me think that this split ring + grease somehow acted as a temporary seal which eventually failed while riding, explaining the massive change in sag.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Boissal said:


> Question for the collective. I've been running a Mara Pro on an Orbea Occam for a few hundred miles now, paired with a Mezzer pro in the front. I've being moving to a more and more linear setting in the front and trying to match that in the rear. I opened the Mara a couple days ago to check how it was setup stock as I felt it was ramping up quite fast. I found a 1/2 volume king can and 3 reducing bands in there. I pulled everything out to get max volume and see if making the rear more linear balanced the bike better. Once reassembled I was surprised at how little pressure increase it took to get back to 30-ish% sag. With the 1/2 can + spacers I was running 145 psi (28%) and with full volume I only needed to go up to 157 (29%). The bike felt great in the parking lot, more of a bottomless feel than previously and no bottom out. Same when riding a really chunky trail, very different feel from what I was used to but with some moderate tweaking I felt I could get it to a happy place. I definitely used all the travel several times but never felt a harsh bottom out.
> 
> The following day I went out for a big ride and added 2 PSI to the shock to firm things up a bit. Bouncing around the parking lot though the shock felt way too soft, I was blowing through travel and could bottom out with a hard clank at the end. I didn't have a shock pump to check things but it seemed like the shock could be losing air. Within a couple hours sag looked to be round 45% with no support and constant bottom outs. I got home and checked the pressure and it hadn't dropped. I had to go up to 185 psi to get back to 29% sag. Plenty of support, no bottom outs, everything felt right.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your other issue was addressed, but on the volume setting, you might try the mid setting with no volume spacers. Your bike has a very consistent rate of progression with a total of 16.5%, which is a little on the lower side. I am running the mid setting on two bikes with 19-21% progression and find it spot on.


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## Boissal (Aug 24, 2021)

Cary said:


> Sounds like your other issue was addressed, but on the volume setting, you might try the mid setting with no volume spacers. Your bike has a very consistent rate of progression with a total of 16.5%, which is a little on the lower side. I am running the mid setting on two bikes with 19-21% progression and find it spot on.


Thanks, I am trying the 1/2 can and no spacer option since I had to re-open the shock. Bouncing around in the driveway felt great, things were ramping up faster than with the full can without feeling as poppy as with the 1/2 can & spacers. 
160psi gave me 28ish % sag which is what I was expecting based on what I've seen with 1/2 can + 3 spacers (145 psi for 28%) and full can no spacers (185psi for 29%). I definitely think leaving the backup split ring by itself in the middle groove was just enough to seal half of the can off until the shock took a big enough hit to push the slickoleum around and open the full can. 
I'm going to play with compression damping and once it's perfect I'll remove the travel reducer and go to 55 mm stroke so I can get back to tinkering, riding a fully dialed back would be too much fun!


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Got a red top-out pad inside the can?


so the red pad looks like it's a bottom out pad, not top out? I had the clunking at top out again after a couple rides, reset the air can (added more lube while I had it open), and it's not clunking right now after a big ride.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

afraid said:


> so the red pad looks like it's a bottom out pad, not top out? I had the clunking at top out again after a couple rides, reset the air can (added more lube while I had it open), and it's not clunking right now after a big ride.


The red foam is for top out.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

CCS86 said:


> The red foam is for top out.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


Ok cool. Where should I expect it to be located when I completely pull off the air can? I've found it halfway down the shaft as if it gets sucked


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

afraid said:


> Ok cool. Where should I expect it to be located when I completely pull off the air can? I've found it halfway down the shaft as if it gets sucked


Top-out pads betwen the air-can and the plastic travel spacers.


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Top-out pads betwen the air-can and the plastic travel spacers.


ok my top out pad is intact and functioning properly most likely. What would be causing the shock to top out so forcefully to cause a clunk? Something to do with the rebound being uncontrolled? Rebound doesn't feel particularly fast. Let's hope this second air can reset has fixed it.


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## spokeywheeler (Dec 1, 2006)

afraid said:


> ok my top out pad is intact and functioning properly most likely. What would be causing the shock to top out so forcefully to cause a clunk? Something to do with the rebound being uncontrolled? Rebound doesn't feel particularly fast. Let's hope this second air can reset has fixed it.


The only time I've experienced a top out clunk with this shock and with my Mara IL is when the negative chamber needs to be reset. Doing so with either shock immediately eliminated the top out clunk. As far as I can tell the proper amount of pressure in the negative chamber allows for a pneumatic top out and doesn't rely on the red pad to stop the shock at full extension.


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

spokeywheeler said:


> The only time I've experienced a top out clunk with this shock and with my Mara IL is when the negative chamber needs to be reset. Doing so with either shock immediately eliminated the top out clunk. As far as I can tell the proper amount of pressure in the negative chamber allows for a pneumatic top out and doesn't rely on the red pad to stop the shock at full extension.


excellent! Guess I'll have to travel with the 15" crescent wrench, doubles as a nightstick for those pesky grizzly bears


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## R.T.R. (Sep 20, 2005)

afraid said:


> excellent! Guess I'll have to travel with the 15" crescent wrench, doubles as a nightstick for those pesky grizzly bears


This one required a 12 gauge rubber slug in the butt ..


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## livefastordont (Aug 29, 2021)

Just got mine. Have both the standard and king size can to play with different air pressures.
The machining and quality on this thing is pretty nice.
That high speed compression knob is extremely hard to move.Anyone else notice the same? Doesn't seem to matter which damping circuit you're in.
If that's normal, it's only a few clicks anyways.
It really looks like something that will last a very long time.
Lot's of high quality machining and aluminum.
Pretty massive and heavy shock though.

@CCS86 did you see my questions on page 38?
The post was delayed for a while, so I'm not sure if anyone saw it.
Pretty curious about all of the stuff you've done to this shock.

Has anyone else had problems with tuning in the midstroke?
Ultimately, the tunability and user-serviceability of the shock made it seem like something that was worth playing around with.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

livefastordont said:


> Just got mine. Have both the standard and king size can to play with different air pressures.
> The machining and quality on this thing is pretty nice.
> That high speed compression knob is extremely hard to move.Anyone else notice the same? Doesn't seem to matter which damping circuit you're in.
> If that's normal, it's only a few clicks anyways.
> ...


Can you link the actual post?

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## livefastordont (Aug 29, 2021)

CCS86 said:


> Can you link the actual post?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk











Manitou Mara Pro


A little bit of fluid on the "dry" side of the IFP doesn't mean it is leaky or blown. It's very possible that this fluid was present during assembly and can actually help keep the chamber walls lubricated for smooth operation. Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk CCS86, I wish you were right...




www.mtbr.com


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

livefastordont said:


> I had questions for CCS86.
> I noticed that you map out the compression ratio of the shock, and projected how the shock would be at top and bottom out.
> You then modified negative air so that you could run higher pressures to get a more ideal CR and sag without bumping up pressures, while still keeping a good sag to keep it supple r'm assuming?
> Do you think that you could achieve a similar result with the countermeasure RS spring?
> ...


To calculate the compression ratio, I looked at at least three pairs of air pressures. The top out pressure was my set point. The bottom out pressure was what the pressure grew to when holding the bike in full compression.

I definitely think that the RS countermeasure spring could be a simple way to move a little bit in the direction I took my shock. But, You don't have any of the tunability that I got from adding a negative port. And I'm guessing that the spring rate probably isn't stiff enough to make a huge change.



livefastordont said:


> Also, did you manage to stop blowing through the midstroke?
> I plan on doing this by just increasing the compression damping and slightly higher pressures, with an RS countermeasure spring to keep the suppleness, but I'm wondering if your increased CR and negative air helped with that at all, or just moved it further down into the travel.


I didn't really struggle with blowing through mid stroke. For the pressure needed to give me the frequency/feel/bottom out support I want, I just didn't have enough sag.

I wouldn't recommend adding more compression damping. It really took away the plush feel for me.



livefastordont said:


> I don't have the materials to make a negative air nozzle like you did, and it seems like you had to make quite a few prototypes to get one that didn't leak.
> Very cool to watch that unfold though.
> The ability to tune negative air is something that really drew me towards a topaz, but the ability to learn how to and eventually modify shim stacks by just unscrewing the dials/ifp chamber really made me want to start toying around with how to figure that out with damping.
> 
> ...


Actually, the first prototype held pressure. Then, I made some design changes that took me the wrong direction.

Whether a self-equalizing or captured air negative chamber is better, is a subjective thing. From a performance perspective, the adjustable negative chamber I made is superior. No dead spot in the spring rate at the notch. Pick the exact top out feel that you want.

@Dougal has notched some air cans. He might have advice. You only get one shot to put the notch in the right spot, and you have to make sure it doesn't damage the seal, as it drags over it thousands of times.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## GiddyHitch (Dec 1, 2009)

How many of the stock volume spacers can you install total?


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## livefastordont (Aug 29, 2021)

Maybe something like these could be used to make a non-marring notch, or a dimple.
"Dimple pliers".

also less likely to make a seal damaging burr.

Not sure how easy it's going to be to dimple high grade aluminum, but it could potentially be heated with a torch first.

This is a while down the line though, and I'm first going to just play with pressures, settings, and sag.









Dimple-Forming Pliers, Set of 5 - RioGrande






www.riogrande.com


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Gonna be saving up for a bigger bike next season, reading this thread decided it'll have a Mara out back, not a Jade, the bike I'll go with will have at least 30% progressivity for sure, but still, I really enjoy my large adjustable negative chamber in McLeod, more supple up top and more mid stroke support (my current frame has the old style Santa Cruz leverage curve)
This got me wondering, since Manitou is making itself out as the tinkerer's suspension brand, why wouldn't they at least make an option of an adjustable negative air can, adding a valve in design stage cannot be that hard, certainly easier than adding one after the fact, you gain the possibility of tuning the negative spring volume, I assume the pressure is supposed to be a set balance with positive, but you could tune with it a little too.
Really, all you'd need is another king can sleeve with a larger positive volume (to offset lost second chamber, half volume works perfect with 18% progressive linkage for me) and a hole through the wall to the chamber+ a multiplier for the pressure. The only issue I see is that you need a 400PSI pump for heavier riders, but if it were an aftermarket option, that's not an issue really, added benefit being the only shock on the market I know of, with such tuneability (there was a prototype 2 years ago, don't know if it's avaible to buy, certainly much more expensive)
End of rant 😁


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

Cary said:


> The oring in the middle is to set the can to the smaller volume and the default. I may be incorrect, but I believe you are very limited in further shrinking the volume of the king can. If your frame is very linear and bottoming, you may need to order a regular can. You can use additional high speed compression to add some bottoming control.


Is there a good way to calculate this? I have the 210x55 Mara Pro (which came with the King Can) - basically stock setup. My bike is a Commencal Meta TR (21) and I'm bottoming out on some of the jumps in our trails ( Santa Cruz, UCSC - Mailboxes trail) - I'm pretty heavy (225 kitted up).

I believe there's only space for two more volume spacer bands on the Mara Pro - not sure if that's going to be enough or if I should spring for the standard air can instead.

Ridiculous pricing on the Mara Pro volume spacers (142-37512-K039) if bought from overseas as shipping kills it, and Hayes doesn't sell it (volume spacers) directly to consumers on their site as well. I know some people here have used the RockShox volume reducers as an alternative.


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## livefastordont (Aug 29, 2021)

I'm a little concerned about everyone complaining about the bottoming of this shock.
I have a 210x55 now, and I have yet to bottom it out, ever. Even when doing modestly sized drops to essentially flat, and when kinda putting it through the wringer on chunky stuff.

I do feel it get progressively stiffer if the section is extended and I don't slow much, but it doesn't feel harsh and only gets deflected on occasion.
Maybe once I think I did it on accident when landing on what was probably the worst area of the wheel to land on - the smallest bit of contact patch that still drops you forward instead of looping out.

Granted, I'm running pretty high pressures, but still.

What does bottoming feel like?
Maybe I'm doing it every other day and I just don't feel it but my bike feels pretty cushy compared to a hardtail.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

If you're not using the whole travel ever, even when making mistakes etc. while riding large enough features, I'd think about increasing the chamber volume, or lowering pressure (unless you're in the ballpark of proper SAG)
As for "everyone bottoming out" all I've seen is a couple people riding bikes above their designed use case and trying their hardest not to use full travel, maybe I'm blind but I didn't see anyone complaining about "bottoming out" pe se.
Bottom out is a harsh end of travel, you'll know when you experience it, using full travel without a painful bottom of the stroke is nothing to be afraid of, and I don't understand why would anyone want to have "travel left just in case", that's not how things work, when you hit the amount of force where the bike is bending you instead of you compressing the shock further, any "saved up travel" doesn't serve any purpose, as you just won't ever use it. I have my suspension set so that I use everything both on a 50cm drop to flat and on a 2m one, I have high speed damping in the shock and HBO in the fork to make up the difference, and actually I don't feel much difference, both events are not pleasant and use all the travel avaible, that's it, neither "bottoms out" the shock or the fork, by trial and error I found the sweet spot of end stroke force with my strength.
Written by a person riding an "XC" bike like an Enduro bike 😁 damn I really need to work on length of my posts 🤔


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

funks said:


> Is there a good way to calculate this? I have the 210x55 Mara Pro (which came with the King Can) - basically stock setup. My bike is a Commencal Meta TR (21) and I'm bottoming out on some of the jumps in our trails ( Santa Cruz, UCSC - Mailboxes trail) - I'm pretty heavy (225 kitted up).
> 
> I believe there's only space for two more volume spacer bands on the Mara Pro - not sure if that's going to be enough or if I should spring for the standard air can instead.
> 
> Ridiculous pricing on the Mara Pro volume spacers (142-37512-K039) if bought from overseas as shipping kills it, and Hayes doesn't sell it (volume spacers) directly to consumers on their site as well. I know some people here have used the RockShox volume reducers as an alternative.


Your bike is on the lower end of how progressive it is for its travel. "The Meta TR 29 has 14.63% progression with a starting leverage ratio of 2.87 and finishing at 2.45. " (This is the 2019, it appears the 2021 is the same frame with 5mm more shock stroke).



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/behind-the-numbers-commencal-meta-tr-29.html



Most 140mm trail bikes we are seeing now are in the 20-25% range. Given the foregoing, I am not surprised that you are bottoming occasionally. The solutions are less sag, the regular can, and/or additional high speed compression.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I'd say if he's only bottoming out occasionally, 2 more volume bands he has space for, might just be enough to avoid bottoming out.


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

Cary said:


> Your bike is on the lower end of how progressive it is for its travel. "The Meta TR 29 has 14.63% progression with a starting leverage ratio of 2.87 and finishing at 2.45. " (This is the 2019, it appears the 2021 is the same frame with 5mm more shock stroke).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Much thanks for the response. I picked up a standard air can. I'm currently only doing the 2 footer lips and I'm getting the occasional bottom out, pretty sure it'll become more of an occurrence once I start tackling the bigger jumps.

New Meta TR == 2021 (14.63%)
Old Meta TR == 2020 and below frame (10%)


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

funks said:


> Would it be a safe bet that if a frame is designed to work with coil shocks that that there's a good chance one will need the standard can?


It's the other way round, if anything. I'd say it's more dependant on the rider itself, a heavy aggressive rider may need a more progressive spring, even with a fairly progressive linkage (yours is not the most, but it's not linear either) while a lighter rider, like me, can get by with a more linear spring, even without a very progressive linkage (18%, mid volume king can with 50mm stroke is perfect), probably has something to do with percentage of energy absorbed by the damper/ IFP/ Spring/ bottom bumper.
How much travel are you using when pushong hard on a flat ground without catching air?


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## elcap23 (Sep 14, 2011)

Anyone know if the Mara Pro would fit in a Transition Sentinel XXL frame? I haver emails into Manitou and called Transition without any info...Thanks in advance.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Anyone tried the 30mm Fox roller bearing kit in a Mara?


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## johnsogr (May 31, 2009)

piciu256 said:


> Anyone tried the 30mm Fox roller bearing kit in a Mara?
> View attachment 1949196


Had success in a Mara IL, although it's pretty loose&#8230;

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

The RWC has different sized thingies for the perfect fit.


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## johnsogr (May 31, 2009)

I tried and failed with RWC on my Mara IL - bearing was way too small in the eyelet


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

For me the RWC kit is way too expensive for what it is (I don't need fancy anodized parts for example, and shipping cost more importantly, it's a separate store with nothing else useful for me) but more importantly, they somehow manage to have only sizes useless to me- no 24mm and no 35mm, just odd sizes, which I'd have to use many ugly spacers with the nice kit to accound for.
The Fox kit seems nice cause I can get it with a bunch of other stuff (and the shock) with free shipping, and more importantly, it has standard roller bearings, so I don't have to pay the high shipping fee when they go.
The only issue I see is potential lack of fit (can be remedied with a shim) and having to remove it to slip off the can, from what I read, which sucks. I'll probably go for the trusted Enduro bearing itself, has 35mm size, is 20$ and I know that it fits loose in a Manitou shock, so I use a filler gauge as a shim.


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

rupps5 said:


> Are there any drawings for the mara pro? I would like to see if the 165x45 trunion would fit on a Sniper L and still have room for a water bottle.


Digging back into a question that I dont think got answered... does anyone have drawings or dimensions on how the piggy back protrudes?
It seems there is a 165x45 trunnion model listed for sale now SKU: 192-36852-A012 (wasn't one when i looked 6 months ago) as we know these short shocks are generally jammed in small spaces on XC bikes...


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Looking at this picture, there should be no issue on this bike.








As for the dimensions, use the search bar at the top, they've been circulating several times.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

johnsogr said:


> I tried and failed with RWC on my Mara IL - bearing was way too small in the eyelet
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mine fits perfectly and made a notable difference. 
Not trying to invalidate your experience just pointing out to others not everyone experienced the same.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## johnsogr (May 31, 2009)

Very interesting, suppose not every shock and hardware are the same? Fox one fit just fine so I don’t really care.


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

Got a question for you guys that bought the Standard Air Can for the Mara Pro. No instructions at all but was wondering why it came with two glide rings? Does one have to cut and remove the existing air piston glide ring that comes OOB for use with the King-Can? Additionally, it came with a black o-ring which looks like it's for the air can. Does that black o-ring replace the o-ring inside the air can mounting cavity? Or is that o-ring meant to be slipped on to the bottom part of the air can's threaded portion?

The two glide rings in the package are exactly the same size, so I'm assuming its a glide ring for the air piston.

I have the *210x55 Mara Pro*


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Those are travel/ shock length spacers, depending on which mounting size you have, you might want to put them in, probably just use the same amount that you have in right now though.


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

piciu256 said:


> Those are travel/ shock length spacers, depending on which mounting size you have, you might want to put them in, probably just use the same amount that you have in right now though.


Much thanks!


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## Caese (Sep 22, 2021)

piciu256 said:


> Those are travel/ shock length spacers, depending on which mounting size you have, you might want to put them in, probably just use the same amount that you have in right now though.


hmm, are you shure about that? I pretty shure these are negativ spacers.
Travel-length spacer sits inside on the shaft


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Yes I worded it wrong, topout/ negative spacers, they lower the chocks travel and yey to eye length at the same time.
210x55+ 5mm spacer equals 205x50 etc.
The can might be for a longer eye to eye shock, so is provided with spacers to accommodate the shorter body, not sure about that, but I believe same spacers are inside the king can and should be same for same.


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## Caese (Sep 22, 2021)

funks said:


> Got a question for you guys that bought the Standard Air Can for the Mara Pro. No instructions at all but was wondering why it came with two glide rings? Does one have to cut and remove the existing air piston glide ring that comes OOB for use with the King-Can? Additionally, it came with a black o-ring which looks like it's for the air can. Does that black o-ring replace the o-ring inside the air can mounting cavity? Or is that o-ring meant to be slipped on to the bottom part of the air can's threaded portion?
> 
> The two glide rings in the package are exactly the same size, so I'm assuming its a glide ring for the air piston.
> 
> ...


You don t have to cut anything. Just pull down your kingcan, grease the o-rings and slide the new aircan on. You have to remove the white negativ-spacers and the red topout-pads if they are stuck in your old can. Reuse them in the new one.


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## Caese (Sep 22, 2021)

piciu256 said:


> Yes I worded it wrong, topout/ negative spacers, they lower the chocks travel and yey to eye length at the same time.
> 210x55+ 5mm spacer equals 205x50 etc.
> The can might be for a longer eye to eye shock, so is provided with spacers to accommodate the shorter body, not sure about that, but I believe same spacers are inside the king can and should be same for same.


I had to doublecheck - but thats not right. Length and stroke are not affected by thouse two white spacers.
@Dougal correct me - but a response of Hayes makes me believe these are negative aircan spacers. If you remove them you get a bigger neg-air-volume?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

This shock has fixed neg volume (a pneumatic topout really), if you increase the volume, the shock will top out later, most probably hanging from the compression piston- assembly, you'll know if that happens (knock)
Adding more spacers than you need for optimal full length top out, you get less length, but that's obvious, isn't it?


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

Much thanks, at least for the 210x55 - it came with two white spacers and the foam ring out of the box with the king can. So I left it the same with the standard air can.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

funks said:


> Much thanks, at least for the 210x50 - it came with two white spacers and the foam ring out of the box with the king can. So I left it the same with the standard air can.


My 210x55 came with 2 white spacers and 2 foam rings.

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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

CCS86 said:


> My 210x55 came with 2 white spacers and 2 foam rings.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


My standard air can only had two white spacers and one foam ring - it's for the 210x55 as we'll which I received from Manitou USA earlier this week.

Maybe they have packing issues and add extra parts in the baggies? - lol

My Mara pro with the king can stock just has two spacers and one foam ring as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

funks said:


> My standard air can only had two white spacers and one foam ring - it's for the 210x55 as we'll which I received from Manitou USA earlier this week.
> 
> Maybe they have packing issues and add extra parts in the baggies? - lol
> 
> ...


Actually my shock came as a 210x50, I modified to 55. That's probably it.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## tbtel (Sep 28, 2021)

Just spoke with the local suspension shop (Fluid Focus in Escondido) which does not service Manitou suspension. The tech explained it was because they have trouble getting the parts in for tune ups and blamed it on the company's poor service. I know Manitou is a small brand, but this seems contrary to what has been suggested in this thread. Does anyone have experience to support or refute the claim?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

tbtel said:


> Just spoke with the local suspension shop (Fluid Focus in Escondido) which does not service Manitou suspension. The tech explained it was because they have trouble getting the parts in for tune ups and blamed it on the company's poor service. I know Manitou is a small brand, but this seems contrary to what has been suggested in this thread. Does anyone have experience to support or refute the claim?


I call BS. Perhaps 10 years ago, but not since. Many shops don’t service because they don’t want to learn another product, even though Manitou is easier to service than most. Shockspital services manitou regularly and I have had them service several shocks. I do my own fork servicing.


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## tbtel (Sep 28, 2021)

Cary said:


> I call BS. Perhaps 10 years ago, but not since. Many shops don’t service because they don’t want to learn another product, even though Manitou is easier to service than most. Shockspital services manitou regularly and I have had them service several shocks. I do my own fork servicing.


Yeah, the ease of DIY service is where my initial interest in the shock came from. So hearing that shops can't get parts was a red flag.

For some more background, FF claims to service all other non-budget MTB suspension (no XFusion and Suntour), but I did get a hint of some bias towards Fox products.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

tbtel said:


> Just spoke with the local suspension shop (Fluid Focus in Escondido) which does not service Manitou suspension. The tech explained it was because they have trouble getting the parts in for tune ups and blamed it on the company's poor service. I know Manitou is a small brand, but this seems contrary to what has been suggested in this thread. Does anyone have experience to support or refute the claim?


Yes, I believe the shop. Maybe it was a single customer and the shop got so annoyed with Manitou that they decided “never again”. Maybe it was awhile ago, but they aren’t willing to try again. I contacted Manitou for part support last December for a 2.5mm bottom out bumper. Manitou’s responses went from telling me that the bottom out bumper is a negative spacer and I just needed to remove one. To sending me negative spacers. To one CS pushing me off to another, who then never responded. There were multiple emails sent to Manitou at each step. Four months later I received an email survey, so I gave them pretty low ratings. The first CS agent emailed me back apologizing that the second agent never responded to me and said that he had an engineer specially make a bottom out bumper for me. What I received was a top out bumper and no other contact from Manitou. I gave up contacting them at that point for my own sanity. All the while I was sending them pictures of the part, the exploded view picture with the part highlighted, and the part number of what I need. During that time I came to despise contacting Manitou CS and I vowed to never buy from Manitou again. 10 months later I still don’t have the correct part, but I love both my Mezzer Pro and Mara Pro, so I’ll probably purchase from them again in the future, but I am dreading the day that I have jump down that CS rabbit hole again. They didn’t charge me for any of those parts, so at least I have that positive experience.


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

Moosedriver said:


> Yes, I believe the shop. Maybe it was a single customer and the shop got so annoyed with Manitou that they decided “never again”.


Given that most shops don't really want to touch Manitou shocks and forks - be great if they actually offered all the replacement parts on their site. And fixed the pricing on their service tools as well which are ridiculously overpriced as most of us will DIY.

I'm not sure why certain parts aren't available on their site, even something simple like a volume spacer kit for the Mara Pro - *"142-37512-K039" *is unobtanium from their site.

Here's the response I got from Hayes when I asked them why they don't have the part listed on their web store? Surely, volume spacers should be 'end-user installable' right? 



> XXXX,
> 
> Thank you for the note.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, our local bike shops don't want to touch any shocks/forks that don't have Fox or RockShox printed on it, additionally - why do end users need to rely on third party online resellers to buy this stuff when Manitou has their own webstore in the US? I know Dougal has a lot of manitou parts for sale in his store from NZ, but when the shipping costs 70% of the part one is trying to buy - it doesn't make sense.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tbtel said:


> Just spoke with the local suspension shop (Fluid Focus in Escondido) which does not service Manitou suspension. The tech explained it was because they have trouble getting the parts in for tune ups and blamed it on the company's poor service. I know Manitou is a small brand, but this seems contrary to what has been suggested in this thread. Does anyone have experience to support or refute the claim?


Tell them to stop being princesses and order the parts.

I have the same problem here in NZ where shops tell customers their fork can't be fixed because they can't get parts and all sorts of other made up garbage. Because they're too lazy to even check.

Then the same customers call me all despondent and I tell them everything is in stock and no problem. Shop loses the sale, the work and possibly the customer.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Moosedriver said:


> Yes, I believe the shop. Maybe it was a single customer and the shop got so annoyed with Manitou that they decided “never again”. Maybe it was awhile ago, but they aren’t willing to try again. I contacted Manitou for part support last December for a 2.5mm bottom out bumper. Manitou’s responses went from telling me that the bottom out bumper is a negative spacer and I just needed to remove one. To sending me negative spacers. To one CS pushing me off to another, who then never responded. There were multiple emails sent to Manitou at each step. Four months later I received an email survey, so I gave them pretty low ratings. The first CS agent emailed me back apologizing that the second agent never responded to me and said that he had an engineer specially make a bottom out bumper for me. What I received was a top out bumper and no other contact from Manitou. I gave up contacting them at that point for my own sanity. All the while I was sending them pictures of the part, the exploded view picture with the part highlighted, and the part number of what I need. During that time I came to despise contacting Manitou CS and I vowed to never buy from Manitou again. 10 months later I still don’t have the correct part, but I love both my Mezzer Pro and Mara Pro, so I’ll probably purchase from them again in the future, but I am dreading the day that I have jump down that CS rabbit hole again. They didn’t charge me for any of those parts, so at least I have that positive experience.


What were you actually wanting? A stroke reducing spacer?
I can understand them being confused because I don't know what you want either.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

Yes, sorry for putting the wrong word after “bottom” in the post above. This is one of the pictures I sent Manitou CS, while using the terminology from this screenshot from the Mara Pro service guide.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Moosedriver said:


> Yes, sorry for putting the wrong word after “bottom” in the post above. This is one of the pictures I sent Manitou CS, while using the terminology from this screenshot from the Mara Pro service guide.
> 
> View attachment 1950449


Yeah those spacers aren't something Manitou have as spares. The shocks ship pre-configured for stroke either in 5mm steps (aftermarket) or whatever the bike company wants for OEM. It's something that any good service centre can handle easily though.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Yeah those spacers aren't something Manitou have as spares. The shocks ship pre-configured for stroke either in 5mm steps (aftermarket) or whatever the bike company wants for OEM. It's something that any good service centre can handle easily though.


Had they said that at any point, especially in the first response, or after any of the multiple times they said they talked with their engineers, then I would have thanked them for their time and had no input to tbtel’s question. Instead they left me feeling like they couldn’t be bothered to actually read my emails and just typed whatever random thought they had at the time. Which is why I responded to tbtel the way I did. If the shop he talked to had a similar interaction with Manitou CS that I did, I understand their refusing to deal with Manitou again.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Pretty certain I'm gonna sell off my EXT Arma that's on my SJ Evo and order a Mara Pro. Anyone ran the Mara Pro on a '21 SJ Evo?
The EXT I'm certain is a good shock for some people. But I'm just tired of the fight as I can't really get it how I want it. 
I have 3 Manitou suspension products currently and frankly all of them work beautifully and really didn't require much dialing in at all.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Moosedriver said:


> Had they said that at any point, especially in the first response, or after any of the multiple times they said they talked with their engineers, then I would have thanked them for their time and had no input to tbtel’s question. Instead they left me feeling like they couldn’t be bothered to actually read my emails and just typed whatever random thought they had at the time. Which is why I responded to tbtel the way I did. If the shop he talked to had a similar interaction with Manitou CS that I did, I understand their refusing to deal with Manitou again.


Everyone has jobs where communication just isn't working and they never get resolved. I know I get plenty that despite best efforts fall into a hole and never get out.

But if a shop needs 37mm wipers for a Mezzer service or a complete Dorado overhaul kit, that's a pretty simple thing.




Suns_PSD said:


> Pretty certain I'm gonna sell off my EXT Arma that's on my SJ Evo and order a Mara Pro. Anyone ran the Mara Pro on a '21 SJ Evo?
> The EXT I'm certain is a good shock for some people. But I'm just tired of the fight as I can't really get it how I want it.
> I have 3 Manitou suspension products currently and frankly all of them work beautifully and really didn't require much dialing in at all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


I've sold a Mara Pro for a Levo and it fit. Fitment has to be pretty similar but I never got to see the bike.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> Pretty certain I'm gonna sell off my EXT Arma that's on my SJ Evo and order a Mara Pro. Anyone ran the Mara Pro on a '21 SJ Evo?
> The EXT I'm certain is a good shock for some people. But I'm just tired of the fight as I can't really get it how I want it.
> I have 3 Manitou suspension products currently and frankly all of them work beautifully and really didn't require much dialing in at all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


I run one on a ‘19 SJ (non-Evo) and it works great. I had no problem with it fitting with the sidearm. The only small negative is that the length of the reservoir on the Mara Pro limits the size of a water bottle, the only one that I’ve found that fits is the Elite Fly 550ml bottle. If you have the SWAT water bladder, that should be less of an impact for you.


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## Nicklz (Sep 30, 2020)

Suns_PSD said:


> Pretty certain I'm gonna sell off my EXT Arma that's on my SJ Evo and order a Mara Pro. Anyone ran the Mara Pro on a '21 SJ Evo?
> The EXT I'm certain is a good shock for some people. But I'm just tired of the fight as I can't really get it how I want it.
> I have 3 Manitou suspension products currently and frankly all of them work beautifully and really didn't require much dialing in at all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


I ran a Mara pro a while on a 2019 SJ Alloy and it fit rather well. I had the (common?) issues of going through travel rather fast and ran more pressure than anyone here. I will get outer can spacers soon and then try again. 



Dougal said:


> Yeah those spacers aren't something Manitou have as spares. The shocks ship pre-configured for stroke either in 5mm steps (aftermarket) or whatever the bike company wants for OEM. It's something that any good service centre can handle easily though.


I just ordered this from a french site ( AXOREO | Box Components, Hayes, HxR Components, Manitou, ProTaper, Reynolds, Sun Ringlé et Wheelsmith ) under the impression that would be stroke reducing spacers:



142-37512-K042 

 *Travel Spacer Kit MANITOU Mara / Mara Pro / McLeod*

Is that something different then? Lets hope not  I'll need to go down from 55mm to 52.5mm to fit the stumpy properly.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nicklz said:


> I just ordered this from a french site ( AXOREO | Box Components, Hayes, HxR Components, Manitou, ProTaper, Reynolds, Sun Ringlé et Wheelsmith ) under the impression that would be stroke reducing spacers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know what is in that kit. But it's not shaft spacers because the Mara Pro and McLeod/Mara-inline are different shaft sizes.


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## ramdm (Apr 25, 2014)

@Dougal 

I have a st cruz bronson 3 2018 (very low progressivity) with a manitou mara pro.

The shock uses the entire travel very easily. I cannot give more air because I lose a lot of initial sensitivity.

I have opened the outer air chamber and I have found it filled with spacers allready.

Is there anything else I can do? 

maybe switch to the standard can? 

the feeling is like I don't have middle section at all.

With a rs superdeluxe and a megneg aircan I can tune the size of the negative section to give enough support but with the mara is imposible.

I have closed the high speed 3 clicks from open.

Enviado desde mi Redmi 5 Plus mediante Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ramdm said:


> @Dougal
> 
> I have a st cruz bronson 3 2018 (very low progressivity) with a manitou mara pro.
> 
> ...


More compression damping.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ramdm said:


> @Dougal
> 
> I have a st cruz bronson 3 2018 (very low progressivity) with a manitou mara pro.
> 
> ...


Add grease on top of the air piston.

I never liked the feel of adding compression damping to the Mara.

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## gillyske (Jun 20, 2019)

CCS86 said:


> Add grease on top of the air piston.
> 
> I never liked the feel of adding compression damping to the Mara.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


With the shock in that position could you please explain where to place the grease? I'm also having issues with using all my travel too quickly.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Gillysyke one thing i don't see mentioned, is there an oring in the half can position? Sounds like maybe you are using the whole cans volume with a few spacers on the one side.

Evolution Training Cycles


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## gillyske (Jun 20, 2019)

rupps5 said:


> Gillysyke one thing i don't see mentioned, is there an oring in the half can position? Sounds like maybe you are using the whole cans volume with a few spacers on the one side.
> 
> Evolution Training Cycles


Yep, o-ring for half volume is present. When I opened it up I found 3 spacers in the can already. So I added 2 more to fill the area and packed grease in there.

Just to be sure I put them in the right half. If the shock is orientated with logos the right side up, the spacers are in the top half of the shock.
Honestly if felt like the shock gained barely any progression.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

gillyske said:


> With the shock in that position could you please explain where to place the grease? I'm also having issues with using all my travel too quickly.
> View attachment 1950787


If the shock mounts in the bike upside down, as pictured, I'd put the grease down inside the shock body, by the yellow arrow (avoiding the air fill valve). 

If it mounts right side up, put it on top of the air piston by the red arrow.

Either way, use a very thick grease so it stays in place. Try to use a unit of measurement, like a teaspoon, so you can repeat it.









Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## gillyske (Jun 20, 2019)

CCS86 said:


> If the shock mounts in the bike upside down, as pictured, I'd put the grease down inside the shock body, by the yellow arrow (avoiding the air fill valve).
> 
> If it mounts right side up, put it on top of the air piston by the red arrow.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. Is there a grease you recommend? I only have slickoleum and white lightning crystal grease.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

gillyske said:


> Thanks for the info. Is there a grease you recommend? I only have slickoleum and white lightning crystal grease.


I have just used some Amsoil synthetic grease I had on hand. Super thick, and hasn't melted in high heat riding.

Really, worst case scenario, it gets too soft, moves around, and starts migrating past the seals. Then you do it over with thicker grease.

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## gillyske (Jun 20, 2019)

Bump if anyone can please confirm this for me.


gillyske said:


> Yep, o-ring for half volume is present. When I opened it up I found 3 spacers in the can already. So I added 2 more to fill the area and packed grease in there.
> 
> Just to be sure I put them in the right half. If the shock is orientated with logos the right side up, the spacers are in the top half of the shock.
> Honestly if felt like the shock gained barely any progression.
> ...


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

When the can is split with the oring, spacers should go to the side closest to the air fill valve

Evolution Training Cycles


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Guys, this is a long thread!

I'm ordering a new Mara Pro 210 x 55 for my '21 SJ Evo. 

The Fox DPX2 works well with a high CR and the Cascade Link (LR chart here for anyone that cares) Specialized Stumpjumper EVO LT Link (2021-Current) - cascadecomponents.bike at around a 26% progression.

Really no complaints about the DPX2 except that the other 3 Manitou suspension products I own (R7 Pro, Mara Inline & Mezzer Pro LE) just feel so superior to other products I figured I'd try the Mara Pro out.

The 210 x 55 automatically comes with the 'King' can? No idea if that's what is best for my application?

Will I experience any clearance issues with my frame or water bottle access?

I appreciate how technical some of you guys get, but I really want to just set my spring rate and knobs and just ride a well working shock. It's just an aggressively ridden trail bike with a few jumps/ drops and lift access days thrown in there. I like a solid pedaling platform combined with the ability to eat endless chunk. (doesn't everyone!)

Is this shock a good match for this bike and do I need to do anything in particular to get it working well for this application or as a good starting point?


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

EXT not working for you, Suns?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Personally, if I were to replace a stock air shock on a heavy hitter like the Evo, I would definitely want separate HSR/ LSR. To me, control for those two separate events is the biggest gain in performance. 

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

TylerVernon said:


> EXT not working for you, Suns?


Just sold it. 
Never could get it quite right. In all honesty probably user error. 
I'll say this, if I'd ever gotten it perfect (a couple of times it felt really good, but it was fleeting) I don't think it would have been 1# worth of better.
Being tied to a springrate that might need to change 30#s because of a hydration pack alone, is problematic imo. If I ever purchase a DH bike I'd try a coil again, otherwise, it's air for me from here on out.
I accept my limitations and move on. Obviously other people love them. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

WHALENARD said:


> Personally, if I were to replace a stock air shock on a heavy hitter like the Evo, I would definitely want separate HSR/ LSR. To me, control for those two separate events is the biggest gain in performance.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


My personal opinion, is that often those knobs don't particularly effect the circuits they are supposed to (i.e. everything ever made by Fox). 26 adjustments and none of them are correct. 

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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> My personal opinion, is that often those knobs don't particularly effect the circuits they are supposed to (i.e. everything ever made by Fox). 26 adjustments and none of them are correct.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


I can't speak to their shocks but on the fork side I definitely prefer grip2 over grip/fit having switched the damper back and forth a couple of times. On my previous custom air shock tunes what always stands out is how much better the rebound works. Coincidentally I also believe that's the achilles heel of the DPX2.

Anyway, I'm in the market for a better air shock too. Right now I'm leaning towards a CC Kitsuma. Definitely interested to hear your thoughts on how the Mara Pro works on it

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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Hi Guys, is there an easy way to add volume spacers without removing the shock from the bike? Something like Fox's?


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

svinyard said:


> Hi Guys, is there an easy way to add volume spacers without removing the shock from the bike? Something like Fox's?


If you have a Mara Pro, you will definitely have a King-Can stock. I'm assuming you also have it setup just like stock in MID-CAN configuration ( the o-ring is still installed in the middle limiting total volume). If so, you can remove the snap ring on the outer can, and push the outer can shell to the back of the bike and it'll expose the out of the box volume spacers. Do note that you'll most likely have three spacers in there already, and maybe have room for 3 more? If it's still not enough then you'll need to add grease in the positive portion of the inner can, or purchase the standard can.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Ah very good. So...


remove air from the shock entirely
pull the snap ring from the outer can
pull down the outer can sleeve, exposing the positive chamber (closest to the threaded part of the can and furthest from the shaft)
Add a spacer or two and put the can/ring back together.



funks said:


> If you have a Mara Pro, you will definitely have a King-Can stock. I'm assuming you also have it setup just like stock in MID-CAN configuration ( the o-ring is still installed in the middle limiting total volume). If so, you can remove the snap ring on the outer can, and the outer can shell to the back of the bike and it'll expose the out of the box volume spacers. Do note that you'll most likely have three spacers in there already, and maybe have room for 3 more? If it's still not enough then you'll need to add grease in the positive portion of the inner can, or purchase the standard can.


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

svinyard said:


> Ah very good. So...
> 
> 
> remove air from the shock entirely
> ...


Yep. Did you get a hold of the Manitou volume spacers for the Mara Pro? Or planning on using the RockShox ones?


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I have a package of the Manitou spacers (black rings that are split). Why, does that impact anything?



funks said:


> Yep. Did you get a hold of the Manitou volume spacers for the Mara Pro? Or planning on using the RockShox ones?


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

svinyard said:


> I have a package of the Manitou spacers (black rings that are split). Why, does that impact anything?


Did you get it from a US shop?


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I bought a King Can for a different McLeod shock and I think they came with that. Thanks for the help btw! Seems like everything else for that shock is documented EXCEPT how to put in a dang volume spacer without taking the shock off the bike lol. I am a huge fan of Manitou/Hayes tho...holy cow is their kids stuff INSANELY nice and their Dominion brakes too. Looking forward to what they do in the next year.



funks said:


> Did you get it from a US shop?


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## GiddyHitch (Dec 1, 2009)

funks said:


> If you have a Mara Pro, you will definitely have a King-Can stock. I'm assuming you also have it setup just like stock in MID-CAN configuration ( the o-ring is still installed in the middle limiting total volume). If so, you can remove the snap ring on the outer can, and push the outer can shell to the back of the bike and it'll expose the out of the box volume spacers. Do note that you'll most likely have three spacers in there already, and maybe have room for 3 more? If it's still not enough then you'll need to add grease in the positive portion of the inner can, or purchase the standard can.


On the subject of spacers, my Mara Pro (purchased 2 months ago) came with 2 spacers - 5mm and 10mm - and the updated spacer kit comes with 5 or so in some odd widths - 3, 5, 6, 7,10 or something. Am I remembering correctly that you can put up to 6 standard spacers in there - so 30mm?

old kit: 142-37512-K039, SERVICE, MARA SHOCK
new kit: 142-38355-K001, KIT, SHOCK NEGATIVE SPACER


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Got one ordered. 6 weeks out or so.


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## Nicklz (Sep 30, 2020)

Dougal said:


> I don't know what is in that kit. But it's not shaft spacers because the Mara Pro and McLeod/Mara-inline are different shaft sizes.


Just an Update on the travel spacers I ordered: looks like there is two sets in the package accomodating Mara and McLeod with different shaft diameters. Now I have to work up the courage to open it and install them  ...


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Hey various suspension expert dudes (talking to you Dougal!), the Mara Pro really doesn't have very good reviews. It's said to have poor off the top response combined with poor midrange support.

That said, I've had such good luck with Manitou products in the past that I decided to try one so my own Mara Pro will be here next week.

Can anyone recommend a good starting point in regards to air can volume for my Cascade link equipped '21 SJ Evo with 26% progression, 3.43 starting leverage ratio & the stock Fox shock (which works darn well really) has a compression ratio around 3.0 currently. I weigh about 193#s ready to ride. Should I be attempting any of these negative chamber tricks from the get go.

I'm thinking I'd want to keep the King Can o-ring installed to reduce positive chamber volume & possibly try setting the negative chamber while the entire shock is in the freezer. The thinking was to get the CR quite high, require a bit more air pressure to hit sag to assist with midrange support and also improve off the top response. Thoughts?

Dialing in the knobs is usually pretty easy, but getting spring rate just so has proved a challenge for me in the past.

Any good advise is appreciated.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Hey various suspension expert dudes (talking to you Dougal!), the Mara Pro really doesn't have very good reviews. It's said to have poor off the top response combined with poor midrange support.
> 
> That said, I've had such good luck with Manitou products in the past that I decided to try one so my own Mara Pro will be here next week.
> 
> ...


Air-can setting is going to depend on how you ride. I run long stroke shocks (previously 63mm, now 65mm metric) and find full can volume works best for me. But it's easy to swap between the two. More aggressive riders who don't ride on choppy terrain will want more progression.

The 50-55mm shocks need less air-volume than the longer strokes. So you may be somewhere between mid volume and mid-volume packed full of spacers.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Suns_PSD said:


> It's said to have poor off the top response combined with poor midrange support.


Not my experience at all, or the experience of two other people I know. I went from a Topaz T3 to the Mara and found the Mara better in every respect, plusher off the top and better support on big hits. One of my friends who got one called it a "cross between a racing cloud and a benevolent pogo stick"


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## tastik (Aug 25, 2021)

Anyone have any approximate shim stack suggestions for this shock for a 190-200lb rider on a Ripmo V2/AF (roughly, about 20% progression, 3.2 - 2.5)? Also what's the inner diameter of the shims?


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

RMCDan said:


> Not my experience at all, or the experience of two other people I know. I went from a Topaz T3 to the Mara and found the Mara better in every respect, plusher off the top and better support on big hits. One of my friends who got one called it a "cross between a racing cloud and a benevolent pogo stick"


Yeah not really my experience either, the initial plushness is great. I do feel like it blows through travel a little quickly in the mid range but part of that is just my frame. I've been fine tuning mine with dabs of grease in the main chamber to increase the ramp and no longer have any complaints. Great shock!


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

tastik said:


> Anyone have any approximate shim stack suggestions for this shock for a 190-200lb rider on a Ripmo V2/AF (roughly, about 20% progression, 3.2 - 2.5)? Also what's the inner diameter of the shims?


I don't believe anyone has publicly shared the stock shim stack or any tuning advice. I'm 190 with gear and on a V1 ripmo and while it took me a while to get mine figured out, most of my issues were a result of the lack of progression in the V1 suspension. I think with the V2 you're going to really like it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tastik said:


> Anyone have any approximate shim stack suggestions for this shock for a 190-200lb rider on a Ripmo V2/AF (roughly, about 20% progression, 3.2 - 2.5)? Also what's the inner diameter of the shims?


You're right in the sweet spot with the stock setup.

Base-valve shims are 6mm ID and 14mm OD.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Sorry for the dumb questions guys. Somehow I always manage to get my suspension apart and back together but I always leave it scratched and I'm going to try really hard not to scratch this one. I just pop off the C clip and the can slides off downwards? Because I really cannot get circlip off.









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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

You have to crack the air can loose at minimum (and obviously air down). I would just take the air can off to do that work. Minimizes the risk of scratching the main shaft.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## GiddyHitch (Dec 1, 2009)

I added the 6.4mm volume spacer from the Manitou kit to my shock (stock config with the thin and thick spacers from the factory) and now it's travel limited for some reason. I just unscrewed the whole can assembly from the body to do this. It should offer 55mm of travel but that measures past the chamfer on the main shaft now. Do I have too many spacers in there or am I suffering from suck down for some reason?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

So it looks like mine has three volume spacers installed as well as the positive chamber reduced by half?

Recommendations on where to start on my high LR 26% progressivity SJ Evo?

My stock DPX2 works well with a 3.0 CR in conjuction with the Cascade Link I run. However my thinking is that with better valving the Mara Pro would probably be fine around that 2.8 compression ratio range. Thoughts?

When I close it up it's important that it's collapsed for some reason? The shock Springs to full extension even with no air pressure in it so it wouldn't be easy. Is the m negative chamber the huge open space above the white bushing? Would you guys recommend doing it in the freezer so I get more mid-range support which is important to me?

Thx









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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

GiddyHitch said:


> I added the 6.4mm volume spacer from the Manitou kit to my shock (stock config with the thin and thick spacers from the factory) and now it's travel limited for some reason. I just unscrewed the whole can assembly from the body to do this. It should offer 55mm of travel but that measures past the chamfer on the main shaft now. Do I have too many spacers in there or am I suffering from suck down for some reason?


I'm assuming you are talking about negative spacers. Since there are both, you should be specific. You can't just throw extra negative spacers in. It's not meant to be tuned. Each specific shock configuration has a negative spacer configuration that helps support the shock at top out, without reducing travel. Add more and it shortens your eye to eye and stroke.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

It's also taking every bit of my full strength to close this can up, this typical?

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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Suns_PSD said:


> It's also taking every bit of my full strength to close this can up, this typical?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


Yup. That's why I made a custom can socket. You have to fight the trapped air charge. 

You can make it easier by airing down the IFP.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

CR with the positive chamber in half and 1 volume spacers is 2.9 on my 210 x 55 Mara Pro.
Based on other experiences this is a good place to start.

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## GiddyHitch (Dec 1, 2009)

CCS86 said:


> I'm assuming you are talking about negative spacers. Since there are both, you should be specific. You can't just throw extra negative spacers in. It's not meant to be tuned. Each specific shock configuration has a negative spacer configuration that helps support the shock at top out, without reducing travel. Add more and it shortens your eye to eye and stroke.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


Uuuuuuuugh, I think that you're right, especially after looking at Suns picture right above your reply. Manitou tech support gave me bad information and then sold me the wrong parts based on that bad information. I think I found the downside of using Manitou now. Ha.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Would it help getting it together to have it compressed a bit in a dyno or while on the bike?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

svinyard said:


> Would it help getting it together to have it compressed a bit in a dyno or while on the bike?


That's a good idea actually. Bolt it in the frame and just sit on the seat and it would make it easy.
There's no way I could put this thing together in the freezer to increase negative chamber pressure. 
I might come out on a 30 degree day during the winter and take it apart and slap it back together and see what happens.
That said, the off the top suppleness seems fantastic on the street ride. I was more interested in increasing the mid-range support. But I'm going to go test ride it like it is.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

svinyard said:


> Would it help getting it together to have it compressed a bit in a dyno or while on the bike?


Yes and no. 

In the bike makes access to install the can a lot harder. Plus, you would practically need a second person to sit on the bike and compress it while you install the can. Doesn't seem worth all that effort when you can just air down the IFP and achieve the same thing off the bike, with one person.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

No idea how what why the IFP even is!

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> No idea how what why the IFP even is!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


IFP on a Mara Pro is the air chamber that allows volume change in the damper. It is in the piggy back. Take off the cap and you'll see a schrader valve. 200psi is standard pressure. Vent that pressure and the shock will compress easily to allow the air-can be be installed, pump it back up before you ride. Otherwise the damper will suck in air.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Dougal said:


> IFP on a Mara Pro is the air chamber that allows volume change in the damper. It is in the piggy back. Take off the cap and you'll see a schrader valve. 200psi is standard pressure. Vent that pressure and the shock will compress easily to allow the air-can be be installed, pump it back up before you ride. Otherwise the damper will suck in air.


300 psi, no?

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## Biggs427 (Dec 8, 2017)

Dumb question: what change should I expect by playing with IFP air pressure? 

Will more psi translate into more compression damping and faster rebound and less is the other way around?

What are acceptable IFP min and max pressure?

Thanks


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> So it looks like mine has three volume spacers installed as well as the positive chamber reduced by half?
> 
> Recommendations on where to start on my high LR 26% progressivity SJ Evo?
> 
> ...


Try the mid position with no spacers to start. The more volume you run, the more midstroke support you will get (you have to increase pressure to maintain the same sag as you increase volume, which in turn increases spring rate at sag and the midstroke). You might also try the full volume setting with the spacers and play with adding a bit of high speed compression if you are bottoming too much or to hard.

On my son’s HD4, which has 12.5% progression from sag to bottom out, we found mid with no spacers gives good mistroke support and bottom control (he is a fast rider and really sensitive to midstroke support). Your bike with the Cascade link has about 16% progression would need a little more air volume for the same rider, but that is the catch, the air volume needed is very rider dependent, as preferred sag and how aggressive a rider is has a huge effect on spring rate and progression needs.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Cary said:


> Try the mid position with no spacers to start. The more volume you run, the more midstroke support you will get (you have to increase pressure to maintain the same sag as you increase volume, which in turn increases spring rate at sag and the midstroke). You might also try the full volume setting with the spacers and play with adding a bit of high speed compression if you are bottoming too much or to hard.
> 
> On my son’s HD4, which has 12.5% progression from sag to bottom out, we found mid with no spacers gives good mistroke support and bottom control (he is a fast rider and really sensitive to midstroke support). Your bike with the Cascade link has about 16% progression would need a little more air volume for the same rider, but that is the catch, the air volume needed is very rider dependent, as preferred sag and how aggressive a rider is has a huge effect on spring rate and progression needs.


Thanks for the input.

I ended up putting it together with the mid position and 1 volume spacer and this resulted in a 2.9 Compression Ratio which is right where I wanted to start really as the DPX2 is at 3.0 CR and works really well for me.

If I find the valving does a better job of holding the bike off the bump stop than the DPX2 does, I'll try pulling out the volume spacer next. It'll be fun to experiment a bit.

PS. The '21 SJ Evo with a Cascade link has 26% progression. Stock link was 19% and simply wasn't enough for the bike's intentions. Stock the bike bottomed constantly and harshly at the 3.0 CR. Once I increased the DPX2 CR to 3.3 CR (which is beyond Fox's recommendations) it was pretty good. But best is definitely the Cascade 26% combined with the 3.0 CR in the DPX2.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

My Intense is 25% progression and I loooove it with the CC coil. That's why I was so interested why you ditched the EXT. I'm putting a Mara Pro on the other bike because it's like 3% progression from sag.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Think I'm just an air shock guy. 

There was something very wooden feeling about the EXT that I could never work through. I also had already purchased 7 different springs and still wasn't happy with the spring rate/ progression combo. It was going to require yet another spring purchase and at that moment I had a chance to sell it for not too much loss so I took the opportunity.

The EXT did 2 things better: It did pedal a bit better as it's more supported right in the middle & it did look great!

As soon as I rode the dialed in DPX2 again with the Cascade on my SJ Evo I knew I had made the correct decision. Didn't need the Mara Pro as I really was enjoying the DPX2. But the 3 other Manitou suspension products I own (R7 Pro, Mara Inline, Mezzer Pro) have just blown me away even when I didn't think there was much improvement to be had beforehand.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> 300 psi, no?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


200 minimum. I run 300. More IFP pressure makes the main shaft seal tighter and gives you less air intrusion into oil.



Biggs427 said:


> Dumb question: what change should I expect by playing with IFP air pressure?
> 
> Will more psi translate into more compression damping and faster rebound and less is the other way around?
> 
> ...


Performance wise more IFP pressure loads up seals more so you have a bit more friction. I also adds starting preload force but very little spring-rate. It has no effect on damping.
I run 200psi minimum (e.g. Wife's Mara Pro) but normally 300psi.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Think I'm just an air shock guy.
> 
> There was something very wooden feeling about the EXT that I could never work through. I also had already purchased 7 different springs and still wasn't happy with the spring rate/ progression combo. It was going to require yet another spring purchase and at that moment I had a chance to sell it for not too much loss so I took the opportunity.
> 
> ...


Your EXT likely had 3x the compression damping of your DPX2. Mara Pro is in the middle.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Suns_PSD said:


> Think I'm just an air shock guy.
> 
> There was something very wooden feeling about the EXT that I could never work through. I also had already purchased 7 different springs and still wasn't happy with the spring rate/ progression combo. It was going to require yet another spring purchase and at that moment I had a chance to sell it for not too much loss so I took the opportunity.
> 
> ...


Agree with your comparison on EXT and Mara pro. The only difference being that I think I'm a well damped coil guy haha. 

I ended up prefering EXT by a bit over mara on my ride but both are fantastic shocks which vastly outperformed fox and RS stuff in my opinion.

I love that wooden/dead feel that ext gives. It's another word for composure/support which is what I value most for agressive/fast riding. 

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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

croakies said:


> Agree with your comparison on EXT and Mara pro. The only difference being that I think I'm a well damped coil guy haha.
> 
> I ended up prefering EXT by a bit over mara on my ride but both are fantastic shocks which vastly outperformed fox and RS stuff in my opinion.
> 
> ...


This is such a big factor that people forget. One person’s lively and poppy is another person’s harsh and uncontrolled. One person’s plush and planted is another’s dead and lethargic.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Pop off the top, controlled on deeper hits is where I wanna be. 

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

croakies said:


> Agree with your comparison on EXT and Mara pro. The only difference being that I think I'm a well damped coil guy haha.
> 
> I ended up prefering EXT by a bit over mara on my ride but both are fantastic shocks which vastly outperformed fox and RS stuff in my opinion.
> 
> ...


What's your bike and spring-rate? The EXT damper curves are quite different to everyone else. Cane Creek DB Coil was probably the closest.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Dougal said:


> What's your bike and spring-rate? The EXT damper curves are quite different to everyone else. Cane Creek DB Coil was probably the closest.


I actually have 2 of them on the same frame. Geometron G16 (Leverage ratio ~2.9 - ~1.9) 175mm of travel with 222x70mm shock. 165lb rider.

My long travel bike (180mm mezzer 27.5") is on a 350lb spring with a stiffer compression tune/lighter rebound (they tuned shim stack).
My "Short" travel bike (160mm mezzer 29") is on a 375lb spring with lighter comp/heaver rebound.

EXT damper is definitely on the upper end of compression dampening like you said but I would never describe them as harsh, maybe taut ride is a good descriptor. The 350lb spring setup is the hardest to bottom due to it's increased dampening. It's interesting comparing them to something like a Fox DHX2 which I ran for bit, I was on a 400lb spring and was still bottoming out all the time even with compression adjustments wound in to the point of serious harshness/grip loss. Seriously sucked lol.

Mara pro felt closer to EXT than it did to Fox DHX2 to me which is a great thing. Mara could be tuned to be pretty similar on compression to EXT from what I felt. There were 2 things which made the EXT better for ME, YMMV

1. EXT rebound tune feels amazingly spot on for me. I attempt to explain in detail here but long story short, it feels like the rebound adjuster affects ultra slow speeds/weighted rebound shaft speeds, while what I call the mid speed/and high speed rebound is handled by shim stack. Mid speed is really fast on my tune which means even if I set the rebound adjuster to full slow, it does not pack. Even though mid speed is fast, bottom out/deep stroke is relatively slow/well controlled. You have to run the LSR adjuster on Mara (which feels like it adjusts mid speed rebound) faster in comparison for it to not pack which definitely contributes to it's lively feel. 

2. Mid stroke support on Mara Pro air spring felt a little light. Led me to running high pressures with air can 3/4 open (full king can volume with some volume spacers). This got me closer to mid stroke support I wanted but ended up a little stiff off the top.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I have some suspension experience, I'm not amazing or anything. But I've ran full Ohlins on my race motorcycles, Lindeman Engineering use to set up my sport bikes for the track and I've won races on those setups, I've utilized Avy several times. I've also dialed in 2 cars at the track I owned. have a sense of what works well. And I don't feel I'm that picky either. The 3 Manitou suspension components I've been running before I just got the Mara Pro, they barely required any adjustment at all for them to feel perfect.

The EXT Arma was weird for me. I was super excited to buy it and in the beginning the Suspension Syndicate guys answered my texts and what not but eventually they quit, and I don't blame them. I was a pain in the *ss cause I was never happy with the EXT so kept trying to explore options.

The EXT arrived with a 525 & 550 and I weigh 184#s on a HL bike. Both were way too soft. So they then swapped me for a 575#, which was also too soft. The bike bottomed out often on the stock link on an average trail ride. Suspension Syndicate had valved it stiffer in the midvalve for me to improve pedaling performance, and it worked well at that and I liked that aspect. I then ordered a Springdex 550-610# spring and settled on 590#s and it worked darn well. even magical at times over fast chatter. There is this one fast chopped out high speed section that enters a trail I ride and it really was special there. However on drops it bottomed so hard it left me limping for a couple of days from ankle soreness on a 6' to flat I did 2-3x and that was with the HBO cranked nearly all of the way in.

I then ordered a Cascade link and due to the increase in LR the spring rate was pretty far off. The Springdex even turned to 610#s was sagging like 18mm (35% or so). The Springdex's work really well in their lower range, but at the end of the adjustment it's not doing nearly as much ime. Like the sag might be right but it'll feel softer when riding. I do consider a Springdex damn near a requirement for a coil shock. While waiting for a new spring I tried the stock DPX2 again, and it was fantastic with the Cascade, really good.

I then received a 650# spring from EXT. The bike didn't ride bad like this but I basically had a 120mm travel bike instead of 150mm. Couldn't use a large chunk of the travel so I sent the shock in for a full rebuild to get the valving put back to stock as it felt really harsh in the middle now that it was on the Cascade. The Cascade stiffens up the midrange due to the extra spring rate and it was just too stiff. It was the second time I had asked for an o-ring on the shock shaft and they forgot again which really bummed me out as it's an important tuning tool. I literally wrote 'PLEASE INSTALL SHAFT TRAVEL INDICATOR O-RING!' on a big piece of masking tape and wrapped it around the shock and it still didn't get done. The EXT was better when it came back but still, not enough sag. Then I ordered a new 610-650# Springdex, but the adjuster wasn't working. Then I was sent another Springdex under warranty (now for sale on PB) and ended up adjusting it all the way down to 610#s, but it still was like, the sag measured close to right but it felt like it needed to be a bit lighter, just a bit. Now I had a 130mm effective travel bike. Still couldn't use the travel (to be fair no 6' drops on this test ride). So I had tried the 550-610 Springdex on 610 and it had like 17mm sag. I had tried the 610-650 Springdex on 610 and it had like 15mm sag, and I needed something in between. The thing is that the Springdex is quite Progressive on it's own and I think combined with the Cascade, it was just too much for how I send (decent, but not huge or anything!). Still couldn't use all of the travel.

It was always a compression/ springrate/ progression issue, not a rebound issue.

So then I was about to order a new 600# EXT Spring for yet another $130 to get rid of some progression inherent in the Springdex and lighten the rate up a bit and that's when I said f*ck this. The shock with 1 spring sold for $150 less than I paid new ($200 if you add shipping and PP fees) and I bolted on the stock DPX2 using the settings I had written down, and it was just way better right away.

I'm not sure the conditions that would be required for me ever to buy a coil again. Maybe an e-bike? Maybe a VPP style bike that doesn't need such a heavy spring-rate that also has lots of progression? Maybe a DH only bike? Someone should invent like a spring that's air adjustable or something. That seems like a good idea.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

That's rough haha. I wish it was standard practice on these custom shocks to provide Dyno output considering how different they can be. Would have loved to see what tune you were on vs what I was on.

Sounds like you had opposite experience to me. My fox was a bottom out fest with little support and ext had significantly more support to the point where I could run 50lb less spring rate vs fox.

I know I started with the base geometron tune instead of suspension syndicate which might have something to do with it.



Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

croakies said:


> I actually have 2 of them on the same frame. Geometron G16 (Leverage ratio ~2.9 - ~1.9) 175mm of travel with 222x70mm shock. 165lb rider.
> 
> My long travel bike (180mm mezzer 27.5") is on a 350lb spring with a stiffer compression tune/lighter rebound (they tuned shim stack).
> My "Short" travel bike (160mm mezzer 29") is on a 375lb spring with lighter comp/heaver rebound.
> ...


There are many ways to tune a shock. The levels of damping and harshness are not the same thing. It is possible to make a fork/shock that is harsh but has little compression damping and it is possible to make a shock that has a lot of compression damping but doesn't feel harsh. It will feel bumpy and hard. But not really harsh.

It's effectively about how the damping comes in and the transitions from LSC to HSC. I tune in a similar way (shape) to EXT, but they are using a lot more compression damping than I would give almost any rider. The Mara Pro has a similar compression damping shape to EXT but it's a lot softer. The rebound shape is different and that changes the feel.

The 2016-20 Fox X2's are some of the worst for feeling harsh but offering little support. Especially as you increase HSC. The DPX2's aren't much better.

The EXT rebound adjuster has a very limited range. That's why they need to custom tune them to each spring.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Stumpjumper Evo, right? So from sag that's 2.9-2.65. Barely progressive enough for a coil. Cascade claims more progression but they count from zero not from the sag point. My Primer is 3-2.25. Works good with a coil but I don't do huge jumps.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Suns_PSD said:


> I have some suspension experience, I'm not amazing or anything. But I've ran full Ohlins on my race motorcycles, Lindeman [snip].....


Maybe I missed it but what bike were you on? It sounds a lot like you just needed the progression of an air shock.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

ungod said:


> Maybe I missed it but what bike were you on? It sounds a lot like you just needed the progression of an air shock.


'21 SJ Evo.

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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Hey Guys,

I just received my Mara Pro and mounted it on my new frame. Is there any internal damage that can be happen to the shock internals by releasing all the pressure in the main can so I can cycle the rear triangle up and down by hand. I'm try to check tire clearance and alignment on a brand new frame.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

No.

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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Thanks - I wasn't sure about cavitation or something else happening without any pressure in the shock.


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## tastik (Aug 25, 2021)

Can anyone address the concerns that I read in a few reviews about the Mara Pro regarding its non-equalizing negative air spring? Impression I got from the reviews is that the negative air pressure is the same regardless of the rider's weight/main air pressure. Is it the case then that there is one ideal rider weight (if so, what is that weight?) for this non-adjustable negative air pressure and that the heavier the rider is than that ideal weight, the harsher the small bump will be while increasing pressure to appropriate levels to retain the mid/end support needed?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Your concern isn't unfounded. Not certain the fixed negative chamber volume is ideal for a particular rider weight as much as it is about the size of your particular shock and your Leverage ratio.

I have yet to ride my Mara Pro properly as I ended up on my other bike all weekend (that runs a Mara) but the negative chamber volume and pressure not being more adjustable does seem like a really strange choice to me.

It's not a shock I would have choose if I felt my bike or weight were out of the mean.


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

tastik said:


> Can anyone address the concerns that I read in a few reviews about the Mara Pro regarding its non-equalizing negative air spring? Impression I got from the reviews is that the negative air pressure is the same regardless of the rider's weight/main air pressure. Is it the case then that there is one ideal rider weight (if so, what is that weight?) for this non-adjustable negative air pressure and that the heavier the rider is than that ideal weight, the harsher the small bump will be while increasing pressure to appropriate levels to retain the mid/end support needed?


In my 168 pound experience: I had a Manitou Mcleod on a 140mm (Canfield Riot) and now a Mara Pro on a 145mm (GG Smash 60mm stroke shock) - My experiences have been very good with both rear shocks. Obviously can't speak to a heavier rider - but it seems like big guys (in forums like this) like these shocks because they are damped so well (compared to more popular options) and you don't have to run super high pressures to run them.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Your concern isn't unfounded. Not certain the fixed negative chamber volume is ideal for a particular rider weight as much as it is about the size of your particular shock and your Leverage ratio.
> 
> I have yet to ride my Mara Pro properly as I ended up on my other bike all weekend (that runs a Mara) but the negative chamber volume and pressure not being more adjustable does seem like a really strange choice to me.
> 
> It's not a shock I would have choose if I felt my bike or weight were out of the mean.



I just put my Mara Pro on earlier today and went for a lunch ride. I need more midstroke support. It feels very nice but has a wallowing feel in the middle that reminds me of airshocks from 12 years ago. What are people using to get more midstroke support without losing the initial small bump on this shock? This thread is 45 pages long so I thought I would ask in case there is a consensus or good solution.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Increase CR or air pressure.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Do is what you'd do on any air shock, cut down on the positive air pressure volume.

First of course if the shock is new to you, is that the shock has to be opened up, then closed again to reset the negative chamber.

In addition you can install the o-rings to split the positive chamber in half. Then beyond that you can begin to add volume reducer spacers to the positive chamber that still remains.

GL


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Increase CR or air pressure.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


Thanks - I tried increasing the air pressure but the shock became too harsh off the top. I will spend some time playing with the compression but I suspect it's just going to make it harsher.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

DirtDiggler said:


> Thanks - I tried increasing the air pressure but the shock became too harsh off the top. I will spend some time playing with the compression but I suspect it's just going to make it harsher.


Too harsh with what damper settings?

How long since you last removed the air can?

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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Do is what you'd do on any air shock, cut down on the positive air pressure volume.
> 
> First of course if the shock is new to you, is that the shock has to be opened up, then closed again to reset the negative chamber.
> 
> ...


Awesome. This is super helpful. I haven't taken it apart yet nor tweaked the spring. I'm hoping to get to a place where I can set it and forget it like my old Topaz.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> Too harsh with what damper settings?
> 
> How long since you last removed the air can?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


I have the compression mostly open but in the past haven't relied on compression for mid-stroke support. I usually tweak the air spring with bands if needed. I didn't know I had to reset the negative spring before riding so I will start with that.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> Do is what you'd do on any air shock, cut down on the positive air pressure volume.
> 
> First of course if the shock is new to you, is that the shock has to be opened up, then closed again to reset the negative chamber.
> 
> ...


Other way. Increasing positive chamber value increase the midstroke spring rate as higher pressure is needed for the same sag. The downside is less endstroke ramp up. That can be somewhat compensated for with additional high speed compression.

@DirtDiggler, what frame?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Cary said:


> Other way. Increasing positive chamber value increase the midstroke spring rate as higher pressure is needed for the same sag. The downside is less endstroke ramp up. That can be somewhat compensated for with additional high speed compression.
> 
> @DirtDiggler, what frame?


Um yah... that's what I meant...

Thanks for the correction.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> Um yah... that's what I meant...
> 
> Thanks for the correction.


Happens to all of us.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Cary said:


> Other way. Increasing positive chamber value increase the midstroke spring rate as higher pressure is needed for the same sag. The downside is less endstroke ramp up. That can be somewhat compensated for with additional high speed compression.
> 
> @DirtDiggler, what frame?


Thanks for your feedback. It's a 2021 GG Trail Pistol. I'm 210#. I have the sag setup around 28-30%. The shock feels OK just not as progressive as I tend to like. However, it's possible the leverage ratio is just more linear on my new frame than I'm used to. 

One thing I noticed is the rebound is loud and it changes sound depending on how much rebound is set. Reminds me of the rebound on my old MRP Stage fork. The shock is also knocking lightly. 

Is there a guide to reset negative spring or is it just a matter of pulling the can off and sliding it back on?


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

DirtDiggler said:


> The shock is also knocking lightly.
> 
> Is there a guide to reset negative spring or is it just a matter of pulling the can off and sliding it back on?


knocking is one of the signs aircan needs reset, so maybe good news .

just remove, check you got all seals nicely clean and greased with slickoleum ( / sram butter / slick honey - same stuff), reinstall.

Oren


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

DirtDiggler said:


> Thanks for your feedback. It's a 2021 GG Trail Pistol. I'm 210#. I have the sag setup around 28-30%. The shock feels OK just not as progressive as I tend to like. However, it's possible the leverage ratio is just more linear on my new frame than I'm used to.
> 
> One thing I noticed is the rebound is loud and it changes sound depending on how much rebound is set. Reminds me of the rebound on my old MRP Stage fork. The shock is also knocking lightly.
> 
> Is there a guide to reset negative spring or is it just a matter of pulling the can off and sliding it back on?


As OrenParets said, try an air can reset. You frame has a very moderate overall leverage ratio and a consistent progression in the leverage curve, with an overall 18% progression rate. This puts it smack in the middle of most modern designs. It has slightly less antisquat than many short travel trail bikes, but only slightly. I would expect it to get along well with most shocks. Do the air can reset, run the can in the smaller volume position with no spacers, hi speed compression open, and low speed about 15 in and go from there. For rebound, I have found I am running the Mara more open than other shocks and not getting bucking, so you may try opening it up 2-3 clicks and see how that feels. 

Note that the Mara, like the Mezzer is sensitive to small pressure changes. In mine, going from 135 psi to 145 psi, is the difference between a dead feeling bike that bottoms easily, to a very lively feel and nearly never bottoms, but sag is only changing about 3-4%.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Cary said:


> As OrenParets said, try an air can reset. You frame has a very moderate overall leverage ratio and a consistent progression in the leverage curve, with an overall 18% progression rate. This puts it smack in the middle of most modern designs. It has slightly less antisquat than many short travel trail bikes, but only slightly. I would expect it to get along well with most shocks. Do the air can reset, run the can in the smaller volume position with no spacers, hi speed compression open, and low speed about 15 in and go from there. For rebound, I have found I am running the Mara much more open than other shocks and not getting bucking, so you may tru opening it up 2-3 clicks and see how that feels.
> 
> Note that the Mara, like the Mezzer is sensitive to small pressure changes. In mine, going from 135 psi to 145 psi, is the difference between a dead feeling bike that bottoms easily, to a very lively feel and nearly never bottoms, but sag is only changing about 3-4%.



Hi Cary,
Thanks for your setup advice and looking up my bikes leverage ratio!
I pushed the can off this morning. It turns out mine was already setup up with an O-ring in the middle! I took out the 3 bands and aired it back up. I'm still having the same top-out clunk. Any tips? Also, I'm still blowing through the mid stroke like I'm back in 2004 riding my old SC VP-Free ; ) I will probably put the bands back in and add few more 3D printed bands so I can lower the can pressure. The breakaway needed to get the shock moving is crazy hard. I know some of that is likely the suspension design. 

Also, my rebound doesn't seem to work until I'm 3-4 clicks away from closed. So the range is really limited. If it's fully open like you mention the top out clunk is pretty noticeable. I don't mean to sound negative and I'm not giving up yet. I did notice the counter measure negative spring some have been using. I may try that out if I can't get it sorted.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

DirtDiggler said:


> Hi Cary,
> Thanks for your setup advice and looking up my bikes leverage ratio!
> I pushed the can off this morning. It turns out mine was already setup up with an O-ring in the middle! I took out the 3 bands and aired it back up. I'm still having the same top-out clunk but it feels a tiny bit better on the initial stroke. That bad thing is i'm still blowing through the mid stroke like I'm back in 2004 riding my old SC VP-Free ; ) I will probably put the bands back in and add few more 3D printed bands so I can lower the can pressure. The breakaway needed to get the shock moving is crazy hard once my sag is set correctly.
> 
> Also, my rebound doesn't seem to work until I'm 3-4 clicks away from closed. So the range is really limited. If it's fully open like you mention the top out clunk is pretty noticeable. Don't mean to sound negative and I'm not giving up yet. I did notice the counter measure negative spring some have been using. I may try that out if I can't get it sorted.


Something is not right with your shock. Either air is leaking out from the negative or the damper is not bled right or something else wrong. You should not be getting any topout clunk and having high breakaway force indicates it is the negative spring. Contact Manitou and get an RMA to have them fix it. You will never get it to feel right until whatever is broken is fixed.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

DirtDiggler said:


> Hi Cary,
> Thanks for your setup advice and looking up my bikes leverage ratio!
> I pushed the can off this morning. It turns out mine was already setup up with an O-ring in the middle! I took out the 3 bands and aired it back up. I'm still having the same top-out clunk. Any tips? Also, I'm still blowing through the mid stroke like I'm back in 2004 riding my old SC VP-Free ; ) I will probably put the bands back in and add few more 3D printed bands so I can lower the can pressure. The breakaway needed to get the shock moving is crazy hard. I know some of that is likely the suspension design.
> 
> Also, my rebound doesn't seem to work until I'm 3-4 clicks away from closed. So the range is really limited. If it's fully open like you mention the top out clunk is pretty noticeable. I don't mean to sound negative and I'm not giving up yet. I did notice the counter measure negative spring some have been using. I may try that out if I can't get it sorted.


If you are getting top out clunk and it is very stiff at the top, I bet your negative spacer configuration is wrong.

How are you determining your rebound "does not work" at faster settings?

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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> If you are getting top out clunk and it is very stiff at the top, I bet your negative spacer configuration is wrong.
> 
> How are you determining your rebound "does not work" at faster settings?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk


Thanks! The rebound just feels the same speed all the way up to 4 clicks before closed. I'm just pumping the bike and riding it normally.
How do I check the negative spacer config?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I had an extremely positive first impression on a very solid ride on the Mara Pro. I already found it better than a well dialed in DPX2 on my SJ Evo.

I don't typically make mid-ride changes but will keep tinkering and report back when I know more, after this coming weekend most likely.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

DirtDiggler said:


> Thanks! The rebound just feels the same speed all the way up to 4 clicks before closed. I'm just pumping the bike and riding it normally.
> How do I check the negative spacer config?



This should show you which and how many spacers (white hard plastic) you need. My 210x50 came with two bumpers (red foam), not one.

I wouldn't worry so much about "feeling" the rebound while bouncing on the bike. Damping is a "minimum effective dose" thing for me, because it robs energy from you. Set it as fast as you can, without having the bike nose dive off jumps. At that point, consider leaving the shock rebound and speeding up the fork rebound.


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

DirtDiggler said:


> The rebound just feels the same speed all the way up to 4 clicks before closed.


this + clank at top out is what my Mcleod did when aircan needed reset. pretty sure your negative spring is leaking / has broken seal etc.
just to be sure - did you remove the whole aircan (not just outer sleeve) ?

Oren


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

CCS86 said:


> I wouldn't worry so much about "feeling" the rebound while bouncing on the bike. Damping is a "minimum effective dose" thing for me, because it robs energy from you. Set it as fast as you can, without having the bike nose dive off jumps. At that point, consider leaving the shock rebound and speeding up the fork rebound.


That's a very downhill-centric way to set rebound speeds. It probably doesn't matter much on downhill but on technical climbing it's working against you. 

This guy has a lot of great videos, and here's one on how to set rebound:


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> That's a very downhill-centric way to set rebound speeds. It probably doesn't matter much on downhill but on technical climbing it's working against you.
> 
> This guy has a lot of great videos, and here's one on how to set rebound:



I have watched a number of his videos and nothing in that particular video conflicts with my suggestion. He shows one method (the curb test) to help find the critical damping point, which is meant to be the *slowest* viable setting, with room to go faster. Just bouncing on the bike in the parking lot and wanting to "feel" enough rebound damping is a recipe for too slow a setting. 

Each shock will be unique in which ranges of shaft velocity it affects greatest, and affects at all. I'm speaking from experience on the Mara Pro, having run the rebound a bit too slow for a while (maintaining balance with too slow a fork setting), and finding big improvements in the bike by speeding both up. I only occasionally ride downhill, and even then, our downhill park is not all that "downhilly". I ride mostly tech / XC trails in the Austin, TX area. 

How do you think running shock rebound sufficiently fast is "working against me"?


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I thought Andre's video explained to a newbie how to set the rebound a little better, so that's why i posted it. I also don't think that "run it as fast as you can for the downhills" or "set it sufficiently fast" is very concise. Andre's method is reproducible.


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## kimochi (Jan 21, 2019)

Tried to read at least 20 pages of this thread, but I'm not sure if this has been asked - when opening the can, is it necessary to get that 'wrench' or I can use a strap wrench like I do when I open any fox/rs shock? Also, it needs be compressed first before pulling out the can right? I try not to compress fox shock before pulling out the can cuz it tends to give more 'pop' and spills oil when doing so - but seems mara pro is different. I have ordered one and will be here next week hopefully.


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## kimochi (Jan 21, 2019)

GCLASS said:


> Hello, there!!
> 
> I installed a MARA Pro in my Orbea Rise and recently, I decided to open the Compression assembly (LSC/HSC) to verify if the shims were already installed in the Shock and they aren't. So i have two (2) questions, does anyone knows if the shims are available so we can make custom compression settings? and second question is, as a result of opening the compression Assy. now the shock have created a squishing sound, does this require priming the shock?


hey - what size is your orbea rise? mara pro fits nice? no rubbing when fully compressed?


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

kimochi said:


> Tried to read at least 20 pages of this thread, but I'm not sure if this has been asked - when opening the can, is it necessary to get that 'wrench' or I can use a strap wrench like I do when I open any fox/rs shock? Also, it needs be compressed first before pulling out the can right? I try not to compress fox shock before pulling out the can cuz it tends to give more 'pop' and spills oil when doing so - but seems mara pro is different. I have ordered one and will be here next week hopefully.


You don't need the special wrench, the air can has flats so you can use any adjustable wrench that will reach 1.5". You could put electrical or duct tape on the wrench if you're worried about marring the black finish. You probably won't be able to get a strap wrench on the air can itself unless you remove the outer sleeve first, which can rotate.

You should press down hard on the canister while you're getting it off the last few threads, apparently the pressure from the negative air spring can damage the last few threads if you carelessly spin it off the shock body.


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## kimochi (Jan 21, 2019)

ungod said:


> You don't need the special wrench, the air can has flats so you can use any adjustable wrench that will reach 1.5". You could put electrical or duct tape on the wrench if you're worried about marring the black finish. You probably won't be able to get a strap wrench on the air can itself unless you remove the outer sleeve first, which can rotate.
> 
> You should press down hard on the canister while you're getting it off the last few threads, apparently the pressure from the negative air spring can damage the last few threads if you carelessly spin it off the shock body.


got it thanks. btw, I don't see in the service guide that suspension fluid is required before closing off the air can, is it really not needed?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Just to confirm, the 216x63mm shock body comes with the short reservoir? I'm thinking of making a 210x55 out of it with a little effort.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> This should show you which and how many spacers (white hard plastic) you need. My 210x50 came with two bumpers (red foam), not one.
> 
> I wouldn't worry so much about "feeling" the rebound while bouncing on the bike. Damping is a "minimum effective dose" thing for me, because it robs energy from you. Set it as fast as you can, without having the bike nose dive off jumps. At that point, consider leaving the shock rebound and speeding up the fork rebound.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this information. I decided to send it in for service since it's brand new. It just doesn't sound right (rebound) and the top-out is way too hard even after resetting the can twice. It almost sounds like it's missing dampening fluid when it decompresses. I had the rebound all the way closed and it was barely slowing the damper down. If it's all the way open it's a pogo stick.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Deleted


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

That's not how you reset the can, you have to actually unscrew the can, just popping the sleeve off doesn't affect the negative chamber.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> That's not how you reset the can, you have to actually unscrew the can, just popping the sleeve off doesn't affect the negative chamber.


I read it as removing the outer can so you can use a strap-wrench on the inner.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Anyone in the 50-60kg rider weight range running this shock on a progressive frame? Wondering if I'll have to make the compression stack softer or not. 
Relatively high 3.3-2.4 leverage ratio might make changing the stack unnecessary, but I'd rather ask, gonna tear the shock apart probably anyway, so might as well play with it a little.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

piciu256 said:


> Anyone in the 50-60kg rider weight range running this shock on a progressive frame? Wondering if I'll have to make the compression stack softer or not.
> Relatively high 3.3-2.4 leverage ratio might make changing the stack unnecessary, but I'd rather ask, gonna tear the shock apart probably anyway, so might as well play with it a little.


What do you define as progressive?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

3.3-2.4 leverage rate, almost 40% change from beginning to end of the stroke in this case.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

piciu256 said:


> 3.3-2.4 leverage rate, almost 40% change from beginning to end of the stroke in this case.


27% progression which is pretty solid. What bike? YT or Canyon maybe?

Although it's better to calculate using the numbers at sag & then at 95% travel.

Could be nearly the same, or dramatically different. 

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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Propain Tyee, don't have it yet but plan to 








Nice smooth curve, getting steeper at the end, around 3-3.1:1 at the sag point.

ps. I guess I always counted the "progressivity" wrong, I just divided the highest number by the lowest number, while you should divide the delta by the highest (starting) number.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Technically, both ways are correct.

Top leverage / Bottom leverage -1 = % additional leverage at top vs bottom

Bottom / Top - 1 = % less leverage at the bottom vs top

One may be considered the industry standard convention... Not sure.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Anyone in the 50-60kg rider weight range running this shock on a progressive frame? Wondering if I'll have to make the compression stack softer or not.
> Relatively high 3.3-2.4 leverage ratio might make changing the stack unnecessary, but I'd rather ask, gonna tear the shock apart probably anyway, so might as well play with it a little.


I'm currently tuning a Mara Pro for Mrs Dougal on a 2014 Norco Range (astoundingly good bike). The first runs were tight for time and I have more to do. 

She came off a McLeod (which we had arms twisted to sell) and the Mara Pro has different air volumes with a bigger King Can so there's a lot of things to match up.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Liking the Mara Pro very much so far. 

I'm 184#s on an S5 SJ Evo with Cascade running half an air can volume with 1 volume reducer at 165psi.

HSC ended up all the way out. Not sure where the other knobs are as I just adjusted by feel. As I recall I started in the middle with everything and added 1-2 clicks of rebound and backed off LSC 3-4 clicks. 

I don't consider SW the final say but I do find it provides a good baseline to work from. Typically I prefer a bit less sag than recommended but otherwise find it accurate to my tastes. Not like it'll ever be 100% anyways. 

The bike is bottoming out a handful of times per ride but I don't really feel them.

A bit more support in the midrange would be nice but I do prefer the shock over the stock DPX2 by a fair margin. 

It's going to get quite cold in a few days so I'm going to experiment with opening/ closing the can in cold weather to increase negative pressure and will report back on what that provides. 

Anyone know where to find revalve instructions? Want to experiment with revalving the HSC stack softer. 

Ps. Don't care about the 'work' mode.









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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Liking the Mara Pro very much so far.
> 
> I'm 184#s on an S5 SJ Evo running half an air can volume with 1 volume reducer at 165psi.
> 
> ...


Work mode will feel like an EXT. It's very firm flat stack with no external adjustment and damping forces are similar to having HSC and LSC closed. Try it for a giggle.

Base-valve tuning requires you to unscrew the whole base-valve assembly. The shims are on the outside of it when removed and the stack height must be preserved. Otherwise you'll have issues with either extra preload or no damping until you wind in the HSC.

Getting full travel without feeling it is the goal no? How much LSC are you running?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So, received the shock and from the get go I can say the rebound is probably too slow, as in fully open and I wouldn't want it any slower (but that's also with a standard, stiff bushing, while I plan to use eyelet bearings), and high speed rebound is damn loud, at the same time, initial impressions of the compression tune are very positive, doesn't seem to stiff, that's testing indoors on a lower leverage rate frame than intended, the work mode also seems to blow off quite nicely- should be useable on mellow flow trails to make it more efficient for pumping 
Also, there are way too many turns for low speed adjustment imo, 4 clicks in McLeod was perfect 
So, how do I tune the rebound? I'm guessing taking out one shim will be enough if I go that route (provided there are multiple), however, is it a standard mid valve setup, or is it located in the reservoir or smth.?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Work mode will feel like an EXT. It's very firm flat stack with no external adjustment and damping forces are similar to having HSC and LSC closed. Try it for a giggle.
> 
> Base-valve tuning requires you to unscrew the whole base-valve assembly. The shims are on the outside of it when removed and the stack height must be preserved. Otherwise you'll have issues with either extra preload or no damping until you wind in the HSC.
> 
> Getting full travel without feeling it is the goal no? How much LSC are you running?


Always glad when you respond to hear your thoughts.

Yesterday after rinsing the bike down (a rare event for me) I pedaled it around in 'Work' mode and just like you said, it's pretty stiff. Just don't see the point in these types of modes but then I don't climb fire roads so maybe that's when it would be useful.

So the 'Party' mode is the Base-valve and requires significant disassembly and more importantly 'stack height must be preserved' or whatever that means, otherwise the damping will be jacked up? This one might be out of my reach. What's involved with doing this exactly?

Tyler Vernon & I hit a pretty shreddy local secret spot on this last ride, and although it's as gnarly as anything I'll ever ride, there are places where I do larger drops. I felt like my shock was using a bit too much of it's travel. SW said I had 5 Deep Compression events, where I'd like to do a max of 1-2 and doing on both the fork & the shock. For instance, the Mezzer Pro on this ride only used about 95% of it's travel where on other rides I'll use 100% of the Mezzer travel. Just concerned I didn't leave anything in reserve at all. Also, cause I'm 50 and and a bit roughed up from MX & roadracing, a lot of times I don't notice the bottom outs while riding but feel pretty bad the next couple of days and that's the case here. My bad left knee & right foot are in pain post-ride and I take that as a direct consequence of those bottom outs.

Not certain where my other adjustment knobs are but will write down this evening and report back here.

What air spring changes would you recommend to: 1) increase midrange support if possible, 2) increase bottom out resistance, 3) but not reduce sag? Was thinking I'd just open the can up in 2 nights and in the morning when it hits about 40 degrees F I'd close the can up in the garage. The negative chamber was reset about 10 days and it was 83' F or so.

Thx


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Do you actually feel a lack of support, or are you only going by the data provided by shock wiz? I wouldn't worry about the amount of deep stroke events, only look at if you are able to bottom out the shock harshly, I'd aim for full travel use without feeling it, you can achieve it either by adding spring rate (less sag- more mid stroke support at once, or volume reducers) or adding high speed compression.
I personally don't believe in having "spare travel for mistakes" or whatever you'd call it, there is a maximum force you're able to put into the bike, and I aim for that, anything stiffer will just bend you, no matter the situation.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

piciu256 said:


> Do you actually feel a lack of support, or are you only going by the data provided by shock wiz? I wouldn't worry about the amount of deep stroke events, only look at if you are able to bottom out the shock harshly, I'd aim for full travel use without feeling it, you can achieve it either by adding spring rate (less sag- more mid stroke support at once, or volume reducers) or adding high speed compression.
> I personally don't believe in having "spare travel for mistakes" or whatever you'd call it, there is a maximum force you're able to put into the bike, and I aim for that, anything stiffer will just bend you, no matter the situation.


I wouldn't call it a lack of support as much as greed on my part. I just like that really tall pedal happy feel. SW is used as a guide and confirmation, but not a final determinant.

Not a fan of the 'just in case' method of suspension set up either, however I like my suspension to cover all of my local trails and the current shock set up doesn't quite do that and in fact left my old injuries aching from the bottom outs.

I'll mess with the spring rate a bit more. Then I might just began cranking the HSC back in.

On edit: Decided I'm going to add another volume spacer and increase negative pressure by closing that can up on a cold day. The additional CR will actually get the Mara closer to the CR that I found worked well for me on the Fox shock so it makes sense they need to be a bit closer.

* Worth noting is that the bike doesn't bob at all when pedaling with this shock, like NONE!


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

Suns_PSD said:


> ...... more importantly 'stack height must be preserved' or whatever that means.....


I believe Dougal means that the total shim stack thickness must be preserved. 
for example, if you have 3x 0.15 thick shims, total thickness is 0.45mm and you want to soften it by taking out 1x 0.15mm shim, to retain shim height you would actually have to take out 2x 0.15 and add 3x0.10 shims. So replacement shim stack is 1x0.15, 3x 0.10 total stack height 0.45 - same as original.
Alternatively you can fix by adding to clamp shim thickness.... or getting creative somewhere else, like tapered shims stacks?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> I wouldn't call it a lack of support as much as greed on my part. I just like that really tall pedal happy feel. SW is used as a guide and confirmation, but not a final determinant.
> 
> Not a fan of the 'just in case' method of suspension set up either, however I like my suspension to cover all of my local trails and the current shock set up doesn't quite do that and in fact left my old injuries aching from the bottom outs.
> 
> ...


Throw the shock and can in the freezer, then do the can reset on a cold morning to maximize the air density. You also might try a spacer less. I have found that this shock is sensitive to small pressure changes. On my Banshee Prime for my 200 pounds 135 psi gets me 15mm of shock sag, the bike won’t get off the ground, and I bottom all over the place and a wallowly feel. 145 psi only changes sag by 1.5mm, but much firmer midstroke, bike come off the ground nicely, and I only bottom if I case a landing. Maybe try 5 psi more.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

You could also add a coil negative 😁 Manitou McLeod (Mara?) Coil Negative Spring


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

All great suggestions!

I'll probably order that 'Counter-measure' to test.

Edited: they made it too easy with the link and all. Counter-measure ordered.

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## Valamorn (Nov 4, 2010)

Hello everyone!
Changed Fox dpx2 to Manitou mara pro
I'm disturbed by an incomprehensible sound, similar to the sound of a saw. What could be wrong?
I removed the royal jar, lubricated the inner rubber seals, and reassembled them.
The sound remained...

Who has versions?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

My McLeod makes the same noise when the rebound check valve doesn't close completely, I believe it's the shim stack chattering on and off. Don't think it's anything to worry about.
Does it disappear when cycling quicker?


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## Valamorn (Nov 4, 2010)

piciu256 said:


> My McLeod makes the same noise when the rebound check valve doesn't close completely, I believe it's the shim stack chattering on and off. Don't think it's anything to worry about.
> Does it disappear when cycling quicker?


I don’t know, will be disappear it if riding fast, I just installed it on my bike today. Sound was detected while adjusting sag and rebound at home.


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## kimochi (Jan 21, 2019)

This thing is beefy!


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## kimochi (Jan 21, 2019)

tried the mezzer tonight and generally felt good. i was wondering though if my psi is too low for my weight and if there's a different setup that i should try? appreciate any help from you guys thanks

riding weight 185lbs 140mm travel
psi @150
lsc +22 hsc +2 rebound -5


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Bike is a '21 SJ Evo S5 with a Cascade link.

The Mara Pro with the volume chamber reduced to half and 1 volume spacer had a CR of 2.9 and was still bottoming a bit too easily. At 184#s to hit a sag of around 29%-30% I was running 165psi. PSI was a bit high but I didn't want to experience any more sag in the mid travel area or more bottom outs.

So opened the can up and went to 2 volume spacers (overall the can volume is still reduced in half). CR is now 3.0. Which by the way is the exact CR I settled on being ideal on the stock shock also with the Cascade link. I also left the shock open overnight on our first cool night. Really, it's not that cold but still about 40 degrees cooler than it was when I first received the shock and reset the negative pressure. Well now with cooler air in the negative chamber the shock required 170 PSI to hit 31% sag so that feels like a step in the correct direction.

Will update with a ride report this weekend.

This Manitou shock would be perfect if the manufacturer provided a small plastic wrench for the air can, good valving instructions, and ideally an adjustable negative volume chamber size & pressure.


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

Is the normal can from the Mara Inline interchangeable with the King Can from a Mara Pro? Both shocks are 185 x 55 trunnion. 
Currently running the Pro on my 2019 Knolly Fugitive, can is at half volume with 3 reducing bands in place (stock configuration), plus a little extra Slick Honey which made it slightly more progressive. I’m looking to make it even more progressive. Should I buy more volume reducing bands? Or simply put on the can from the Inline?
Also, does anyone here know the leverage rate on this bike? Knolly didn’t respond when I asked them. 
Lastly, I’m selling the Inline and a Super Deluxe Ultimate, both 185 x 55 trunnion, if anyone is interested.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

afraid said:


> Is the normal can from the Mara Inline interchangeable with the King Can from a Mara Pro? Both shocks are 185 x 55 trunnion.
> Currently running the Pro on my 2019 Knolly Fugitive, can is at half volume with 3 reducing bands in place (stock configuration), plus a little extra Slick Honey which made it slightly more progressive. I’m looking to make it even more progressive. Should I buy more volume reducing bands? Or simply put on the can from the Inline?
> Also, does anyone here know the leverage rate on this bike? Knolly didn’t respond when I asked them.
> Lastly, I’m selling the Inline and a Super Deluxe Ultimate, both 185 x 55 trunnion, if anyone is interested.


Ask and you shall receive (at least in part). Your bike is moderately progressive already, 23.8% progression (pretty linear change in rate) and has a relatively low leverage rate (average 2.48). Linkage Design

I am guessing you are a pretty aggressive rider as with that progression and the king can in the small position and spacers I would not expect you to have bottoming issues. What is your sag? Have you tried playing a bit with high speed compression and a bit less sag? 

Also, keep in mind that that bike will be very active on climbs. Knolly uses much less antisquat than most bikes, Noel's belief being that if you want it to not bob climbing, use more low speed compression. As a result, the bike will tend to climb well on technical stuff, but move around more than other bikes and also sag more into its travel while climbing as there is less chain force to limit squat.


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

Thanks! Linkage Design was evaluating the 120mm travel version, I’m running the LT, 135mm travel. I’m at about 25% sag, 2 or 3 clicks in from open on both LSC and HSC, and only bottoming once every four or five rides, so…pretty good. I’m not hucking drops or doubles or anything, but I ride fast and slam it down pretty hard at times. I think I’ll do what you said, run maybe 27 or 28% sag and dial in the compression. 
Still wondering about the outer can compatibility, might be nice to run a less complicated shock and sell the Inline with a King.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

afraid said:


> Thanks! Linkage Design was evaluating the 120mm travel version, I’m running the LT, 135mm travel. I’m at about 25% sag, 2 or 3 clicks in from open on both LSC and HSC, and only bottoming once every four or five rides, so…pretty good. I’m not hucking drops or doubles or anything, but I ride fast and slam it down pretty hard at times. I think I’ll do what you said, run maybe 27 or 28% sag and dial in the compression.
> Still wondering about the outer can compatibility, might be nice to run a less complicated shock and sell the Inline with a King.


Based on what I have seen, if you are simply increasing the stroke length, just plot out the sag for the extra 15mm on its current trajectory. You will end up with a bit more overall progressiveness. I would say that if you are bottoming every 4-5 rides, you are where you should be. You want to use full travel. As long as you are not feeling a hard bottom through the pedals, you are good.


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

I agree I’m about where I should be, but I’d like to see if I can get a bit more sensitivity while climbing with more sag. Headed out now, stoked to have dry trails in November in Montana! 
Also still wondering how the normal can compares with the King progressively speaking if anyone knows.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

The standard can is more progressive than the king can.

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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

Ok, that’s what I thought, but is there any overlap with the King? If so, at what number of bands and grease stuffing does the King become as progressive as the standard can?


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

Had a great ride, downhill I felt faster and in more control with 2psi less and 3 more clicks of LSC, 1 additional HSC. Didn’t touch rebound. So then I added some clicks of LSC to the Mezzer and that felt better as well.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

afraid said:


> Ok, that’s what I thought, but is there any overlap with the King? If so, at what number of bands and grease stuffing does the King become as progressive as the standard can?


You would have to completely fill the outer volume of the king can to match the standard can. Theoretically it is possible, but practically not so likely.

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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

As a comparison, on my frame with my low weight (55kg) I wasn't able to use full travel on 50mm stroke McLeod with standard can running 40% sag, with king can in mid volume I use full travel @30% sag smoothly, as in I don't feel it.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

Does anyone know the order for the shims on the main shaft? My piston nut apparently came off the piston which I discovered when I went to service my shock and all the shims were no longer where they were supposed to be.

edit: disregard, Manitou sent me the information.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

If anyone has a Mara Pro in 216x63 they want to sell hit me up.


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## WildGeese (Jul 15, 2019)

@CCS86 ?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Suns_PSD said:


> Bike is a '21 SJ Evo S5 with a Cascade link.
> 
> The Mara Pro with the volume chamber reduced to half and 1 volume spacer had a CR of 2.9 and was still bottoming a bit too easily. At 184#s to hit a sag of around 29%-30% I was running 165psi. PSI was a bit high but I didn't want to experience any more sag in the mid travel area or more bottom outs.
> 
> ...


Got to say, the Mara Pro felt awfully good today with the air chamber in half & 2 volume spacers. Used all the travel, but no harsh a bit bottom outs this time. Pedaled great. The damping just feels so darn right.

That said my sag was only at 28% and needed to reduce air pressure but was concerned about pedaling and midrange support being negatively effected so just installed the RS Counter-Measure negative spring and decided to reset the sag to about 30-31%.

I can report on the pedal around the neighborhood it doesn't feel as damped, feels more springy. Which I consider a negative but then it was just a couple of curb hops so not definitive or anything. 

Will retest the Mara Pro on my '21 SJ Evo on proper trails & report back.

So far though, loving it. Selling off the EXT and testing the Mara Pro was the right decision for me.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

WildGeese said:


> @CCS86 ?
> View attachment 1956601


Are you wondering if I have seen it, or if it's me?

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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Suns_PSD said:


> that said my sag was only at 28% and needed to reduce air pressure but was concerned about pedaling and midrange support being negatively effected so just installed the RS Counter-Measure negative spring and decided to reset the sag to about 30-31%.


A couple percent one way or the other doesn't matter at all, how can you even be so perticular about sag? You may have just a slightly different position on the bike, eat a bit more that day or just different temperature and it'll be different, unless you're pedantic and cannot just leave it there, if the setup works, don't worry about it, personally I wouldn't exceed 30% by much, but other than that it depends on what you want.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

My idea for air can installation tool, double ended 40mm PVC connector, rubber seal inside grips the flats just enough to turn, deep enough for the shock body to fit into.
If you want more fancy, get a 32mm pipe and mould the end to the shape of the body, this works well enough for me.


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## Valamorn (Nov 4, 2010)

It is worth noting again that the Manitou Mara pro has no problems with aircan instal if the IFP chamber is first depressurized


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

True that, didn't even really think about depressurizing it, since all shocks I worded on before required an IFP adapter


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I do mine with the shock bolted in the frame which makes it super easy. 

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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Suns_PSD said:


> I do mine with the shock bolted in the frame which makes it super easy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


having it in my frame actually makes things much harder, you still have to push the can down a little, which is quite hard if you're not able to actually grip it  this frame being a great example of that, plus there is a risk of getting sand or smth. inside the air can if not sealed while on the bike.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

I have a 216x63mm Mara pro for sale with the RockShox counter spring mod. Message me if interested.

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## Boronite (Jan 25, 2014)

Would the Mara Pro fit a Pole Evolink 1.4 which has this leverage ratio?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Boronite said:


> Would the Mara Pro fit a Pole Evolink 1.4 which has this leverage ratio?


It should match well, 25% progression. Suggest starting in the default position for the can (1/2 full) and run in largest position if you aren’t getting full travel.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So, took apart my shock, factory "work mode" tune gives plenty of room for play, 4 .2x21 and 2 .2x19 shims, on the other hand, the compression adjuster only has 2 .2x14 shims and a .2x8 clamp/spacer shims on either side+ needs to have the thickness preserved, so not much to be done here, on the other hand I don't think it's overly stiff personally.
Now to the main piston, why does nobody say it's a twin tube shock? 😅 cause while not the classic twin tube layout, it pretty much is! The shaft has 2 separate tubes in it for compression and rebound oil flow, it's quite impressive how the thing is assembled really 
Now to the shim stacks, rebound goes like that:
Piston
.2x8x19
.2x8x19
.2x8x19
.2x8x19
.2x8x17.5
.2x8x16
.2x8x12 clamp shim
rebound check valve body
rebound check valve shim .15x8x19
check champ shim .2x8x11
Nut

Compression side is pretty much just a check valve and goes like this:
.1x8x19
.15x8x10
.1x8x19
.2x8x13
backer plate

At first sight I thought the mid piston assembly is valved really stiff, while the main valve is pretty soft, but then I looked at the shaft diameter and realised that there is relatively little oil flow through the mid valve, and relatively high flow through the main valve.
All in all, impressive shock, if only the piggyback wasn't so long, maybe sideways or something? That would make it compatible with more frames, as is, I'm not sure it'll fit into mine 😅 by measurements and linkage simulations it will be really close.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Ended up taking out 2 of largest shims from both rebound and work mode shim stacks (actually, moved them to the end of the stack in case of rebound, to preserve thickness)
If I guestimated correctly, this should give me an usable second stiff compression preset instead of full lockout (which I don't need) and fast enough rebound to leave some adjustment range with my 55kg weight.
@edIT 2 shims less turned out to be a bit too fast, put one more back in and seems perfect now.


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## 86cucv (Jul 8, 2019)

Dougal said:


> Yes it's just a 5mm spacer on the shaft under the bottom-out bumper. Every maker of metric shocks is making them at max stroke and installing spacers to create shorter stroke versions. Four basic frame sizes (230x65, 210x55, 190x45, 170x35mm) and Trunnion shock heads make them 25mm shorter.
> 
> Manitou don't have a parts catalogue like SRAM does. Probably because it's an insane amount of work to keep up with. SRAM likely has 4 people on that full-time.


Bringing back a post from a year ago, but just wanted to confirm before a make a purchase. I'm planning on picking up a Mara Pro 230 x 60 for a revved GG Smash and if I go the MegaTrail route down the road, I want to confirm that I can convert the 230 x 60 to a 230 x 65 by just taking out a 5mm spacer, right? If so, can someone point me to the specific spacer that needs to be removed in either one of the exploded CAD drawings or a photo?

I'm currently eyeing a DPX2 that needs a rebuild for cheap, but it seems like spending the extra money on the Mara Pro is the way to go.


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## Mr Smith PDX (Oct 9, 2011)

Can anyone confirm that the Maro Pro 200x56 eyelet mount shock will fit on a 2015 or similar year Giant Trance frame(XL, 27.5 wheels) ?
The stock shock was a Monarch 200x50, but my Mcleod 200x56 fit and there was not frame contact when it was bottomed with no air in it. Just trying to make sure the piggyback section won't contact the frame before I pull the trigger. I think there is enough room, but thought I would see if anyone has already made it work.


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## seitenryu (Oct 15, 2009)

86cucv said:


> Bringing back a post from a year ago, but just wanted to confirm before a make a purchase. I'm planning on picking up a Mara Pro 230 x 60 for a revved GG Smash and if I go the MegaTrail route down the road, I want to confirm that I can convert the 230 x 60 to a 230 x 65 by just taking out a 5mm spacer, right? If so, can someone point me to the specific spacer that needs to be removed in either one of the exploded CAD drawings or a photo?
> 
> I'm currently eyeing a DPX2 that needs a rebuild for cheap, but it seems like spending the extra money on the Mara Pro is the way to go.


It should be on the damper shaft, just below the bottom out oring. You'll need to depressurize the damper, remove the eyelet, and bleed the shock. Might wait until it needs service to do that.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm 95% happy with my Mara Pro (removed the Countermeasure btw, it sucked) but I really want to back off my HSC valving a bit (in Party mode) so I have a usable range back, because currently the adjuster is all the way out and still not quite to my liking. 

Can anyone provide an idiot/ first time guide to this procedure?

Thx

Ps. Today I went riding with my 2 regular guys and was leading most of the time, it felt like I was going oddly slow. Not that I had enough traction or skill to wiz through the trees any faster, just that my bike felt so 'quiet' underneath me. Often I had to wait for my buddies which usually isn't the case and I told them I felt slow today and they responded by assuring me that I was definitely going faster than usual. That was an interesting experience.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Just download the "Mara pro piggyback manual", it's all laid out really nicely, to change the valving all you need to do is release all the IFP pressure and unscrew the adjuster assembly (in theory you need a special wrench, I got by with 2 Allen keys and an adjustable one)
You need to bleed the shock afterwards most likely, so a freewheel wrench and a bleeding adapter as well.


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## Boronite (Jan 25, 2014)

Can someone explain what the difference is between the Manitou Mara Pro and the Rockshox Super Deluxe Ultimate, and why the Mara Pro is the better shock? And are there some bikes where the Rockshox would be a better fit, or is a Mara Pro always going to be even better?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Boronite said:


> Can someone explain what the difference is between the Manitou Mara Pro and the Rockshox Super Deluxe Ultimate, and why the Mara Pro is the better shock? And are there some bikes where the Rockshox would be a better fit, or is a Mara Pro always going to be even better?


The Super Deluxe Select Plus was terrible compared to my Mara pro.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boronite said:


> Can someone explain what the difference is between the Manitou Mara Pro and the Rockshox Super Deluxe Ultimate, and why the Mara Pro is the better shock? And are there some bikes where the Rockshox would be a better fit, or is a Mara Pro always going to be even better?


Chassis wise the Mara Pro has a lot less friction than the SDU. It also has individual HSC/LSC damping controls that work. The SDU has a three position climb switch and a LSC dial.
tune wise the Mara Pro doesn't use preloaded shims so it has a much nicer entry into the damping curves. 

Fitment wise the Mara Pro has a long piggy back which makes it difficult to fit on some bikes.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Mara has a more usable range of adjustment and much more usable factory tune, there is no reason the Super Deluxe wouldn't be able to work pretty much aswell as the Mara technically (discounting air spring differences) but it requires custom tuning, the most notable issue imo being "rapid recovery" aka, preloaded rebound shim stack, it means the shock is not as controlled on rebound stroke, and it's hard to set up not to pack down on larger repeated hits while not bucking.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

piciu256 said:


> Mara has a more usable range of adjustment and much more usable factory tune, there is no reason the Super Deluxe wouldn't be able to work pretty much aswell as the Mara technically (discounting air spring differences) but it requires custom tuning, the most notable issue imo being "rapid recovery" aka, preloaded rebound shim stack, it means the shock is not as controlled on rebound stroke, and it's hard to set up not to pack down on larger repeated hits while not bucking.


No amount of custom tuning a SD will get you the low friction of the Mara.

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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Is this really suck a big deal though? Most frames have a leverage ratio around 3, so while the friction surely makes a difference, I don't thing it's that big of a deal, depending on the frame, the small negative chamber might be more important than this, so I wouldn't call it a definite advantage, rather usecase dependant.


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## Boronite (Jan 25, 2014)

Thanks for the good info! Is the Super Deluxe Coil also plagued by the same issues as the air version?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

piciu256 said:


> Is this really suck a big deal though? Most frames have a leverage ratio around 3, so while the friction surely makes a difference, I don't thing it's that big of a deal, depending on the frame, the small negative chamber might be more important than this, so I wouldn't call it a definite advantage, rather usecase dependant.


Have you used both shocks? If not, you are just speculating.

I used both on the same frame and it is night and day difference; even with a custom tune on the SD. I'd clearance a frame to fit the Mara reservoir before I considered a SD.

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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

CCS86 said:


> Have you used both shocks? If not, you are just speculating.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


I did on the same frame, McLeod but the principle is the same, however there were too many issues with the RS Shock to say that friction was an issue, rebound was way too slow, then way too fast (when I tried tuning) the compression tune felt awful also, stock McLeod I'm happy with after removing the choke point being larger than necessary rebound shim.



Boronite said:


> Thanks for the good info! Is the Super Deluxe Coil also plagued by the same issues as the air version?


it's supposedly even worse actually, don't know if it changed in the recent version, but before it didn't even have checked rebound circuit.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

You are describing the SD as a lousy shock just like I am, but saying the Mara doesn't have a clear advantage over it? Sounds like a contradiction to me. Plus, you are talking about the McLeod and the Mara is a better shock.

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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Dude, I'm talking strictly about the air spring side of things atm, we've already figured that the damping setup is objectively superior on a Mara, however the air spring may not be, depending on the leverage curve of the frame and what the user wants.
It's true that there is less friction mid travel, but at the same time it's also true that there is less support in the middle of the travel when compared to the beginning of the travel, not an issue on frames with falling rate, but may be an issue if the LR starts low, goes higher and is the falling, there are still frames like that on the market, my frame is like that for example, and the McLeod works much better after I modded the air can for a large negative chamber, I won't bother doing that with the Mara, cause the frame it's going in is consistently progressive, so I don't see a need, might install the "counter measure" though.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Did you notch your McLeod can?

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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I wanted to, but didn't know how to calculate the proper spot, didn't want to risk trashing the can, used external valve in mid volume setting, this also allows me to go back if I want to- just need to plug the hole with epoxy, might do that actually as I'm intending to sell the bike, not everyone is keen on having to adjust such things.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Cool. I did the same on my Mara. External valve and larger negative chamber. Took the shock from 8.5/10 to 10/10 for me.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Mara Pro works really nice on the SJ Evo. I'm pleased with it and done messing with things. 
SW likes it as well.









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## Skulls Road (Jul 20, 2020)

All the 205x65s are sold out. Is there a spacer I can remove in the 205x60 to bring it back up to the stroke I need?


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## jscottyk (Jun 3, 2009)

995 posts laster, I can't believe I read the whole thing.


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

Anybody know where to buy 142-37512-K039 in the US? (Manitou US doesn't sell them directly)

These are the volume spacer reducers.


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## GiddyHitch (Dec 1, 2009)

How many volume spacers should I add if I'm using full travel on an average ride with no harsh bottom out? I usually shoot for 5-10% travel margin.


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

GiddyHitch said:


> How many volume spacers should I add if I'm using full travel on an average ride with no harsh bottom out? I usually shoot for 5-10% travel margin.


There’s only space for 2 left. It comes stock with 3 ( assuming stock mid can configuration )


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## jscottyk (Jun 3, 2009)

Looks like Hayes is out of stock on the Rear Shock Air Can Wrench with no plans for restocking. 

Any issues using a Crescent wrench and some electrical tape for protecting the can?


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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

jscottyk said:


> Looks like Hayes is out of stock on the Rear Shock Air Can Wrench with no plans for restocking.
> 
> Any issues using a Crescent wrench and some electrical tape for protecting the can?


Best yet, be nice if somebody can 3D print one for a few bucks. It's supposed to be 1.5 inch wrench. If it's 3D printed with great tolerances (tight), no need for metal (and it won't mar the aluminum).


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

jscottyk said:


> Looks like Hayes is out of stock on the Rear Shock Air Can Wrench with no plans for restocking.
> 
> Any issues using a Crescent wrench and some electrical tape for protecting the can?


No issues with that. PM me if you want a much better tool.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I made a big socket to fit. It allowed me to push on the end of the can easily to seat the threads.


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## Carmel (Apr 21, 2014)

Printed a wrench like this, based on the design @CCS86 had shown somewhere in this thread.
I imagine the normal wrench to be way more of a hassle to compress the damper at the same time as turning it.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I just clamp the end of the shock in a soft jaw vice and use a good quality adjustable wrench. There is no difficulty in starting the thread because you don't need a wrench at that point. The can threads easily until the very end, it only needs a wrench to break it loose and to snug it up.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ungod said:


> I just clamp the end of the shock in a soft jaw vice and use a good quality adjustable wrench. There is no difficulty in starting the thread because you don't need a wrench at that point. The can threads easily until the very end, it only needs a wrench to break it loose and to snug it up.


Unless you are airing down the IFP, you need to provide a lot of axial force when disengaging the last thread and starting the threads, to avoid damaging them (because of the negative spring). This is tough by hand.

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## funks (Jun 2, 2007)

When the shock is off the frame, it’s fairly easy to remove the can and put it back on with a* BAR CLAMP.* Without air in the can, just compress the shock slightly (which ain't pretty hard as it's only the negative air that's pushing back) then unscrew / screw the can.










If the shock is still in the frame, and you want to do an aircan reset - a short plastic stubby 1.5 inch wrench would definitely be a lot more help. After removing the air from the can, it's easy enough to compress the shock using the bike frame then unscrew the air can (then screw it back on). *The fancy 3D printed tool described earlier doesn't really help in that scenario.

My opinion is that small 3D printed plastic stubby wrench (with 1.5 inch wide jaw) would be more useful, to give one better grip / leverage on the can for air can resets (which works for both on, and off the frame use-case).*



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## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

What would be a good starting setup for the air can on a Giant Trance X Advanced 29? Here is the Leverage ratio for it. I'm 150lbs.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm no expert, but I'd just start with the half can and go from there.

It seems the only bikes than can utilize the stock King Can need sky high progression or a rider that really keeps their wheels on the ground.

GL


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## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

Nevermind, won't be able to run it, reservoir hits the downtube.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> Nevermind, won't be able to run it, reservoir hits the downtube.


I've got the shorter reservoirs.


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## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

Dougal said:


> I've got the shorter reservoirs.


Shorter than both of them? Mine is a 185x55 and I was under the impression that it came with the short version already


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> Shorter than both of them? Mine is a 185x55 and I was under the impression that it came with the short version already


That's the shortest factory one. I've been able to take another 9mm off the one on Mrs Dougal's bike.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Hey everyone!
I have a 2021 Radon Slide Trail 8.0 (140mm travel, 185x55 trunnion shock) with a RS Deluxe Select+. I'm thinking about picking up a new rear shock. The Deluxe works fine, there is nothing "wrong" with it, the only negative is that it feels like I blow through the travel a bit too easily. I usually run about 30% sag, and if I go to 20-25% the rear of the bike starts to feel super harsh. One other thing that I noticed (but this might be all in my head) is that rear of the bike feels much harsher on smaller bumps with the flip chip in the low/slack setting. If I could use the bike in the low/slack setting but still get the sensitivity of the high setting that would be awesome. But i'm not sure that's possible and all of this flip chip thing might be complete nonsense.
I mainly want a new shock to just experiment and experience something different, i'd also like to play around with compression damping, and i'd like to do all the servicing myself at home on the shock.
I'm looking at the DVO Topaz and Mara Pro. What do you guys think which shock would work better with my frame? It's a German direct to consumer bike so there is not a lot of info out there about the kinematics. You can find the frame in Linkage X3, I only have the demo version:










According to this the leverage ratio starts at 2.89 and ends up at 2.29.
Also, i'm a light rider at ~143lbs, not a big jump guy, love natural trails, rocks, roots and all the jank. I really want good small(er) bump sensitivity. Don't really care about a lockout, I basically never use it.
Still not a 100% sure that the shock will actually fit in my frame clearance wise, i'll message Manitou if they have any drawings for reference.


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## Notthatbryan (Aug 7, 2021)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> Shorter than both of them? Mine is a 185x55 and I was under the impression that it came with the short version already


What bike were you trying to mount it on? I'm debating upgrading the rear shock on my Trance x and it takes a 185x55 trunion.


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## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

Notthatbryan said:


> What bike were you trying to mount it on? I'm debating upgrading the rear shock on my Trance x and it takes a 185x55 trunion.


That's the bike I have, 2021 trance X Advanced. I'm waiting to hear from Dougal about how much his custom reservoir is. Otherwise I'm going to wait for Craig at Avalanche to come up with his stuff for the a float X


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## Notthatbryan (Aug 7, 2021)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> That's the bike I have, 2021 trance X Advanced. I'm waiting to hear from Dougal about how much his custom reservoir is. Otherwise I'm going to wait for Craig at Avalanche to come up with his stuff for the a float X


Well. At least you saved me buying one and finding out it doesn't fit.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'm no expert, but I'd just start with the half can and go from there.
> 
> It seems the only bikes than can utilize the stock King Can need sky high progression or a rider that really keeps their wheels on the ground.
> 
> GL





HollyBoni said:


> Hey everyone!
> I have a 2021 Radon Slide Trail 8.0 (140mm travel, 185x55 trunnion shock) with a RS Deluxe Select+. I'm thinking about picking up a new rear shock. The Deluxe works fine, there is nothing "wrong" with it, the only negative is that it feels like I blow through the travel a bit too easily. I usually run about 30% sag, and if I go to 20-25% the rear of the bike starts to feel super harsh. One other thing that I noticed (but this might be all in my head) is that rear of the bike feels much harsher on smaller bumps with the flip chip in the low/slack setting. If I could use the bike in the low/slack setting but still get the sensitivity of the high setting that would be awesome. But i'm not sure that's possible and all of this flip chip thing might be complete nonsense.
> I mainly want a new shock to just experiment and experience something different, i'd also like to play around with compression damping, and i'd like to do all the servicing myself at home on the shock.
> I'm looking at the DVO Topaz and Mara Pro. What do you guys think which shock would work better with my frame? It's a German direct to consumer bike so there is not a lot of info out there about the kinematics. You can find the frame in Linkage X3, I only have the demo version:
> ...


Your bike has 20.7% progression which is right in the middle of modern designs with that travel. Likewise your overall leverage rate is very moderate. Either shock will work well. The Mara is plusher and more ground hugging, the Topaz livelier and more mid-stroke support. Pick the one that best matches what you prefer in ride characteristics.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Cary said:


> Your bike has 20.7% progression which is right in the middle of modern designs with that travel. Likewise your overall leverage rate is very moderate. Either shock will work well. The Mara is plusher and more ground hugging, the Topaz livelier and more mid-stroke support. Pick the one that best matches what you prefer in ride characteristics.


Thanks for the info. I definitely like picking rougher lines on purpose and feeling the suspension do it's job, so I think the Mara would be a better choice. Now the only question is about clearance, I messaged Manitou for a drawing with dimensions, hopefully they can help me out. My frame does have this cutout for reservoirs, but i'm not sure if it's enough.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

HollyBoni said:


> Thanks for the info. I definitely like picking rougher lines on purpose and feeling the suspension do it's job, so I think the Mara would be a better choice. Now the only question is about clearance, I messaged Manitou for a drawing with dimensions, hopefully they can help me out. My frame does have this cutout for reservoirs, but i'm not sure if it's enough.
> 
> View attachment 1960934


I can’t say for certain, but based on just looking at your picture, I don’t think the Mara Pro will work. It looks like the piggyback will contact your frame. Back on posts #400 and #406 of this thread there are some extended and compressed dimensions, I believe they are of a 210x50, so they aren’t exactly what you’re looking for, but since the 210x50/55 and 185x50/55 use the same can and piggyback, you can probably get a close estimate.


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## batboyv (Dec 10, 2021)

Carmel said:


> View attachment 1960415
> 
> Printed a wrench like this, based on the design @CCS86 had shown somewhere in this thread.
> I imagine the normal wrench to be way more of a hassle to compress the damper at the same time as turning it.


Are you going to share the .stl file? 😀


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Dougal said:


> That's the shortest factory one. I've been able to take another 9mm off the one on Mrs Dougal's bike.


Wait, how'd you do that? I've been thinking about this, but cannot quite imagine with how the thing is shaped, do you just shorten the top cap threaded portion, or do you have to make a custom reservoir altogether?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Wait, how'd you do that? I've been thinking about this, but cannot quite imagine with how the thing is shaped, do you just shorten the top cap threaded portion, or do you have to make a custom reservoir altogether?


Change the valve cap and machine up the reservoir and reservoir end-cap. Relocate the seal etc.
I'm still looking to save another 5mm.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So not too too hard, good to know if I end up needing it for my frame, as it stands, removing the valve cap should be enough for my needs.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

I should be getting my Mara Pro back from Hayes tomorrow. When I originally mounted it to my bike it had very little rebound control. Only the last 3 clicks worked and it went from no rebound at all to way too much rebound. It also had a hard top-out clunk and initial breakaway was very hard. In the meantime I've been on a cheap little float DPS. My initial experience with the Mara Pro was so disappointing that I was going to just buy another Topaz. But 210mmX50mm is/was sold out everywhere, even in Germany. So, I'm hoping my 2nd try with the Mara Pro (w/reset can) will be much better. However, I'm wondering if the Mara (non-pro) would be a better fit for me. Is the negative spring self equalizing on the Mara or is it the same design and the Mara Pro (fixed)?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Same negative setup, smaller positive chamber, might be better for you if you don't need as much adjustability, the inline version is only less resistant to heat and doesn't have as much external adjustment, but other than that it's a fine shock.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Same negative setup, smaller positive chamber, might be better for you if you don't need as much adjustability, the inline version is only less resistant to heat and doesn't have as much external adjustment, but other than that it's a fine shock.


Thanks! I guess in that case I will probably just keep the Pro and see how it goes.


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## Carmel (Apr 21, 2014)

batboyv said:


> Are you going to share the .stl file? 😀











Manitou Mara Pro Aircan Wrench by CarmelH


This is an aircan wrench for the Manitou Mara Pro Shock. To use it the shock needs to be mounted upside down in a vise with soft jaws. It allows to unscrew and remount the air sleeve while applying pressure to overcome the negative chamber pressure.




www.thingiverse.com




Only works in a vise. For resetting with the shock installed in the frame a sort of simple open wrench would be useful.
But that won't work in my Banshee Titan.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Just a FYI, the counter measure spring is nowhere near as effective as a large negative chamber, half king can used for neg volume gave 15mm sag with 120 PSI, counter measure with standard neg volume gives 13mm sag at 100PSI, sure is a lot simpler though, quite a bit easier to use full travel as well ofc.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

piciu256 said:


> Just a FYI, the counter measure spring is nowhere near as effective as a large negative chamber, half king can used for neg volume gave 15mm sag with 120 PSI, counter measure with standard neg volume gives 13mm sag at 100PSI, sure is a lot simpler though, quite a bit easier to use full travel as well ofc.


Not an option on Mara shocks.

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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Pretty sure there was a guy in this thread exactly who 3d printed a piece to put a secondary valve in the air can, I did a similar thing on my McLeod and rode it for a year, now epoxied the holes I made since I'm intending to sell the bike.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

I'm a bit confused how you used the half king can for more negative volume? The valve idea is very cool and would solve a lot of issues heavier people have balancing mid-stroke with small bump compliance. I wish Manitou just made an aftermarket can kit with an adjustable neg volume. I contacted Vorsprung a while back to put it on their radar but they told me Manitou doesn't have enough volume (no pun intended) to put their resources into it.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

piciu256 said:


> Pretty sure there was a guy in this thread exactly who 3d printed a piece to put a secondary valve in the air can, I did a similar thing on my McLeod and rode it for a year, now epoxied the holes I made since I'm intending to sell the bike.


Yeah, that's me.

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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

DirtDiggler said:


> I'm a bit confused how you used the half king can for more negative volume? The valve idea is very cool and would solve a lot of issues heavier people have balancing mid-stroke with small bump compliance. I wish Manitou just made an aftermarket can kit with an adjustable neg volume. I contacted Vorsprung a while back to put it on their radar but they told me Manitou doesn't have enough volume (no pun intended) to put their resources into it.


In short, drilled a hole through the inside wall to allow pressure to pass from the outer can to the inner, then added an air valve to the outer air can. You could make an equalisation dimple, but that would require you to know where to put it and I didn't know how to calculate.
I don't think it would be a good thing for heavy riders though, I'm only 55kg geared up and already had to put 250psi in the neg chamber (130 in the pos) were you twice as heavy for example, there is no pump on the market that can deliver such pressure, as far as I understood also, the small neg volume is a good thing for heavy riders too, as large neg volume sort of forces a certain sag percentage, that combined with high pressures can cause some issues.
For anyone still interested, I believe only metric shocks are possible for this modification, cause in imperial lengths main air seal extends past the edge of the king can.
Anyway, I think this mod is only any useful on frames that have ither very linear leverage curve, or one that starts low, goes high for the sag point and the falls again.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> In short, drilled a hole through the inside wall to allow pressure to pass from the outer can to the inner, then added an air valve to the outer air can. You could make an equalisation dimple, but that would require you to know where to put it and I didn't know how to calculate.
> I don't think it would be a good thing for heavy riders though, I'm only 55kg geared up and already had to put 250psi in the neg chamber (130 in the pos) were you twice as heavy for example, there is no pump on the market that can deliver such pressure, as far as I understood also, the small neg volume is a good thing for heavy riders too, as large neg volume sort of forces a certain sag percentage, that combined with high pressures can cause some issues.
> For anyone still interested, I believe only metric shocks are possible for this modification, cause in imperial lengths main air seal extends past the edge of the king can.
> Anyway, I think this mod is only any useful on frames that have ither very linear leverage curve, or one that starts low, goes high for the sag point and the falls again.


Very interesting! Do you have any photos of it? 
It would be an interesting experiment just adding an equalization dimple. Would it have the same result as other shocks that equalize or just minor improvements? Anyone want to sacrifice their expensive can? No one? C'mon.....


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Use the search function in the McLeod thread, I believe even Dougal played around with the idea, I don't have the photos on my phone I don't believe, it was pretty ugly though, I lack access to proper machining tools, it would be best to order someone to make a custom valve, or better off, a custom air can or at least outer sleeve.
I have to say though, larger negative chamber does indeed increase friction mid stroke, with almost no pressure in there, the outer seal is in a relaxed state, with pressure it creates quite a bit of stiction, don't know how that affects riding compared to the arguably much better spring curve, but the difference is there and I do feel it while pushing on the saddle by hand, or maybe I feel the lower mid stroke spring rate, I'm pretty sure we humans are pretty bad at analysing things by feel 😅


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## balticmoe (Nov 17, 2019)

Hallo there,

after the installation of the mezzer, the rear triangle of my Levo SL also needs to be upgraded and I'm a complete newbie in the suspension area.

Leverage Ratio

I would like to stay with manitou and am wondering whether to go with Mara Inline or Mara Pro.

The size of the Piggybag will be a problem with the Mara Pro, as I also want to use a range extender at some point. Fox X2 and Dpx2 and Dvo Topaz should fit, but is the Mara Pro 210x55 comparable in terms of size?
Examples form the internet:














At 105 kg, I'm also a heavy rider, if that's relevant.

I would really appreciate a little advice.

Greetings after Christmas


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's comparable in size to the vivid I'd say, you could just put the reservoir sideways too.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

balticmoe said:


> Hallo there,
> 
> after the installation of the mezzer, the rear triangle of my Levo SL also needs to be upgraded and I'm a complete newbie in the suspension area.
> 
> ...


I have sold a Mara Pro 210x55 for that same bike with an even heavier rider. Despite my concerns about maybe not enough damping or air spring he seems very happy.


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## balticmoe (Nov 17, 2019)

Dougal said:


> I have sold a Mara Pro 210x55 for that same bike with an even heavier rider. Despite my concerns about maybe not enough damping or air spring he seems very happy.


Would there be a better alternative for me?

Many SL riders go for Öhlins and Push, but here I doubt that I can appreciate the shocks enough to justify the price difference for the given performance. 

The performance of my Mezzer in particular has virtually driven me in the direction of Manitou ;-)


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## tastik (Aug 25, 2021)

How do you remove the outer sleeve on the king can? How do you get that metal ring off?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's just a spring ring, you use your fingernail or a screw driver at the gap, it should just come out. Then you push the sleeve off, you should do it off the shock imo, too easy to damage the stanchion otherwise, first time is always pretty sticky.


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## tastik (Aug 25, 2021)

piciu256 said:


> It's just a spring ring, you use your fingernail or a screw driver at the gap, it should just come out. Then you push the sleeve off, you should do it off the shock imo, too easy to damage the stanchion otherwise, first time is always pretty sticky.


so just lay the king can dust seal side down on a flat surface, grab the outer can the push down toward the ground?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

nothing more to it.


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## Skulls Road (Jul 20, 2020)

Would the regular non pro mara be an upgrade over a rockshox monarch rt3?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I believe so, yes, it was a huge upgrade from my Monarch R at least, I know some people like how the monarch rides, but I just couldn't get along with it.


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## G60Dub (Mar 24, 2021)

Any news on a Mara Pro for the 2021 Transition Spire (carbon) ? Asking for a friend.

PS. I've not had a chance to measure the length and stroke yet.

Strike that; I think it's maybe a 205x65?


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

G60Dub said:


> Any news on a Mara Pro for the 2021 Transition Spire (carbon) ? Asking for a friend.
> 
> PS. I've not had a chance to measure the length and stroke yet.
> 
> Strike that; I think it's maybe a 205x65?


The piggy back might hit the downtube.


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## G60Dub (Mar 24, 2021)

POAH said:


> The piggy back might hit the downtube.


 That's a fair point. Anyone tried a Mara Pro on a Carbon Transition Spire yet?


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## jscottyk (Jun 3, 2009)

I was popping off the LSC knob (so I could install one @CCS86 handy-dandy HSC knob-mods) and was boneheaded and/or hamfisted and let the detent ball bearings get away from me. For the life of me, I cannot find those little suckers in the garage. Any idea what the spec is for them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jscottyk (Jun 3, 2009)

jscottyk said:


> I was popping off the LSC knob (so I could install one @CCS86 handy-dandy HSC knob-mods) and was boneheaded and/or hamfisted and let the detent ball bearings get away from me. For the life of me, I cannot find those little suckers in the garage. Any idea what the spec is for them?


Per Hayes customer support, "2mm stainless."


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## lotusoperandi (Aug 24, 2010)

Okay, since there are so many really smart suspension folks in here, suppose I wanted to use a Mara Pro on a bike with a linear curve, such as the Starling Murmur. I'm 165lbs kitted, semi-aggressive, like to ride fast and hit the occasional jump (nothing massive). Good shock for this? Will I be looking at adding volume spacers? Base tune should be good given my weight? What about just a Mara inline? Or should I not even bother looking at that? Thanks for any insight!


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## miles of pain (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm considering a Mara Pro, and ran across this review which is not so hot. Would anyone care to comment on their thoughts on this? 








Manitou Mara Pro rear shock review


Can the Mara perform as well as Manitou’s new Mezzer enduro fork?




www.bikeradar.com


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Read the comments under said review, you'll understand why it's not really relevant.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

lotusoperandi said:


> Okay, since there are so many really smart suspension folks in here, suppose I wanted to use a Mara Pro on a bike with a linear curve, such as the Starling Murmur. I'm 165lbs kitted, semi-aggressive, like to ride fast and hit the occasional jump (nothing massive). Good shock for this? Will I be looking at adding volume spacers? Base tune should be good given my weight? What about just a Mara inline? Or should I not even bother looking at that? Thanks for any insight!


If you are sure it's a very linear curve, frankly, I would use something else. IMO the Mara Pro works best with a slightly more progressive linkage. The negative spring doesn't self equalize so it's a little more challenging (depending on your weight) to make it super supple in the initial stroke while having a very supportive mid-stroke. It may still work great for you but that's my experience. If you want to dig deeper, read the review above using an 'Orange' bike which is very linear. That said, there are plenty of people who make it work and love it on all types of bikes so take this with a grain of salt.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It may work, it may not, depends on how picky you are, my bike has a similar beginning leverage rate and it's stays pretty much flat till after the sag point (however it does fall about 14% till the end) and I don't notice the shock hanging up, or any lack of compliance, most of the time you sit around the sag point anyway, where the native spring doesn't have any effect anymore, the only place the beginning really matters is when hitting large holes (where the wheel leaves the ground), and I do feel some hanging up in such situations, it's hard to tell how much of it is the shock, and how much of it is the relatively small amount of travel (130mm ), and I'm talking places where even downhill bikes have a hard time.
So, all in all Is say the only way to know is to try, definitely go for the Mara inline though, or at least change the can for the small one, unless you don't mind stuffing the big can full of spacers. While the air spring might not be ideal for your setup, the damper may more than make up for it, the again, custom tuning the current shock may give you better results for similar cost, so choose wisely.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I sold my old frame and the Mara Pro that was on it, but I picked up an Ohlins TTx2 for my TB4 and it came with the usual air canister bands plus a couple of main chamber inserts that I thought were pretty clever. I wish Manitou had done something like this, it would have made it easy for anyone to use the King Can with just about any frame.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

ungod said:


> I sold my old frame and the Mara Pro that was on it, but I picked up an Ohlins TTx2 for my TB4 and it came with the usual air canister bands plus a couple of main chamber inserts that I thought were pretty clever. I wish Manitou had done something like this, it would have made it easy for anyone to use the King Can with just about any frame.
> View attachment 1964339


Are all of those different types of volume spacers? How do you like the TTx2 vs Mara Pro?


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

DirtDiggler said:


> Are all of those different types of volume spacers? How do you like the TTx2 vs Mara Pro?


The white spacers are stroke adjusters, another clever thing that ohlins did. My shock can be either a 190*45, 42.5, or 40mm depending on which white spacer you install. The two black spacers and a couple of canister bands are used to adjust air progression. 

It's hard to compare the ohlins and the Mara for me because I had them on two different bikes. I didn't love the Mara on my Ripmo but it was obvious it was a very good shock... I just couldn't get it to where I was happy on the Ripmo V1 (part of that may have just been the nature of the DW link). The ohlins has been awesome on my Tallboy with a Cascade link. I think between the two it would probably be a toss up for me, mostly depending on which frame it was going on. Both great shocks, bonus points to the Mara for being tunable and rebuildable and slightly cheaper.


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## kakor79 (Jan 10, 2022)

Could someone tell me what the maximum outside diameter along the King Can on the Mara Pro? I'd like to see if I can fit it on my bike. Thanks.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

kakor79 said:


> Could someone tell me what the maximum outside diameter along the King Can on the Mara Pro? I'd like to see if I can fit it on my bike. Thanks.


Look at posts 400 and 406 on this thread for dimensions.


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## timon92 (Oct 17, 2011)

I just got brand new Mara Pro. Is there any maintenance required before first installation? Is that normal that it takes a lot of force to turn compression knobs?


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

timon92 said:


> I just got brand new Mara Pro. Is there any maintenance required before first installation? Is that normal that it takes a lot of force to turn compression knobs?


Not a bad idea to take off the air can, check lube of the air piston. Add some slick honey if it needs it. Then your air can is reset (negative spring) - especially if you live at an altitude much higher or lower than where it was assembled. I live at 9400 ft (2800 meters) elevation.

I find the high speed compression knob takes some force to turn, not as much for low speed.


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## timon92 (Oct 17, 2011)

How do I reset negative spring? I got all the manuals but don't know which step is that


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

Simply by removing the air can and then reinstalling the air can (this resets the negative spring).



https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360049180473-Mara-Pro-



See "50 hour air can piston service" - to find the instructions on removing the air can.

First step is to release your main air spring air pressure.
You need to compress the shock as you un-thread the air can, otherwise it will come off forcefully (potentially damaging the threads). I usually take the shock out of the bike, put the shock in a vice, carefully use a large wrench to loosen the air can.
I then put the shock back on the bike and weight the seat a bit as I finish un-threading the air can.
I reverse this procedure to re-thread and tighten the air can.

Others in this forum have made tools to be able to remove the air can completely in a vice, off the bike.


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

timon92 said:


> How do I reset negative spring? I got all the manuals but don't know which step is that


Remove air can from shock (totally).
Reassemble it.
Done.


Make sure to have the shock totally deflated. 
Depends on your shock and strength you may need strap wrench/gloves/etc.

Oren


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Yes - those knobs are super stiff when you first get the shock. Turn them a bunch of times and they will eventually loosen up.


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## plazzer (Sep 25, 2021)

Hi, going to perform basic air sleeve maintenance. When I unscrewing the air sleeve (i know it`s necessary to compress it because of threads / negative pressure in) - it`s safe to rotate damper body? I remember some articles from McLeod that this (rotating damper body along with unscrewing air sleeve) can loosen up some preload on shimstack or something?


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## plazzer (Sep 25, 2021)

CCS86 said:


> Made a tool to assist with the air can. Man, does it make reinstalling it easier, with no risk of damage.
> 
> View attachment 1333185


Hi, could you share the 3D model/printer file?


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## yogiprophet (Jan 9, 2006)

CCS86 said:


> Made a tool to assist with the air can. Man, does it make reinstalling it easier, with no risk of damage.
> 
> View attachment 1333185


I’ll buy one of those!


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## Carmel (Apr 21, 2014)

I put my design on Thingiverse, but credit for the idea goes to @CCS86.








Manitou Mara Pro Aircan Wrench by CarmelH


This is an aircan wrench for the Manitou Mara Pro Shock. To use it the shock needs to be mounted upside down in a vise with soft jaws. It allows to unscrew and remount the air sleeve while applying pressure to overcome the negative chamber pressure.




www.thingiverse.com


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## lkubica (Dec 9, 2021)

What do you guys think about non-pro Mara? Wondering how much worse it is from the PRO. I do not need a big can, I cannot fit Mara Pro and a water bottle in Meta AM 29 2019, shorter piggyback is not available in Europe. I do not even need edjustable HSC, just need a shock to be tuneable and serviceable. To sum up, I need a shock with good valving and progressive air spring.


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## yogiprophet (Jan 9, 2006)

lkubica said:


> What do you guys think about non-pro Mara? Wondering how much worse it is from the PRO. I do not need a big can, I cannot fit Mara Pro and a water bottle in Meta AM 29 2019, shorter piggyback is not available in Europe. I do not even need edjustable HSC, just need the damper to be tuneable and serviceable. To sum up, I need a damper with good valving and progressive air spring.


I put a Mara on my SC Hightower LT and it’s rockin’
What’s unusual is that it’s performance actually gets better on long descent. I believe the oil viscosity is a little high.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

lkubica said:


> What do you guys think about non-pro Mara? Wondering how much worse it is from the PRO. I do not need a big can, I cannot fit Mara Pro and a water bottle in Meta AM 29 2019, shorter piggyback is not available in Europe. I do not even need edjustable HSC, just need a shock to be tuneable and serviceable. To sum up, I need a shock with good valving and progressive air spring.


The Mara IL is an improved McLeod, and one stop over at the McLeod thread will tell you it's an awesome shock that gives up absolutely nothing!


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

ungod said:


> The Mara IL is an improved McLeod, and one stop over at the McLeod thread will tell you it's an awesome shock that gives up absolutely nothing!


Ran several McLeods for years, including multiple days at Northstar when I rode my trail bike instead of DH bike. Always worked great. The Pro gives a little more adjustment and heat dissipation, but I never overheated the McLeod on top to bottom runs and was 240 pounds at the time. I would expect the regular mara to work just as well.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

lkubica said:


> What do you guys think about non-pro Mara? Wondering how much worse it is from the PRO. I do not need a big can, I cannot fit Mara Pro and a water bottle in Meta AM 29 2019, shorter piggyback is not available in Europe. I do not even need edjustable HSC, just need a shock to be tuneable and serviceable. To sum up, I need a shock with good valving and progressive air spring.


It's designed to be different feel. So in the same length you'll find the inline with a single layer air-can (so it's more progressive) and the damper tune even fully open is a bit firmer.


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## rustyspade (Apr 13, 2021)

hey guys, this may sound like a silly question but when you say fully closed hsc or lsc, you mean adjusted to the positive direction (clockwise) on the red and black compression dials correct ? thanks fellas


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

rustyspade said:


> hey guys, this may sound like a silly question but when you say fully closed hsc or lsc, you mean adjusted to the positive direction (clockwise) on the red and black compression dials correct ? thanks fellas


Correct. Not silly, people are often loose with terms and descriptions.


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## kimochi (Jan 21, 2019)

Anybody knows if mara pro will fit on a SCOR bike?


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## boostinmini (Jan 29, 2013)

Hey guys.

Looking to replace a x2 on a 2021 banshee rune, how do you think the mara pro will work with the low leverage rate? Think 2.46








Rune V3 — Banshee Bikes







www.bansheebikes.com


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## Carmel (Apr 21, 2014)

boostinmini said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> Looking to replace a x2 on a 2021 banshee rune, how do you think the mara pro will work with the low leverage rate? Think 2.46
> 
> ...


I run a Mara Pro in the Titan (when not running a Jade), be aware that you will need to install the short reservoir option. 
I think the low leverage ratio works great with the Mara, because you don't need high pos. pressures and therefore the fixed negative pressure is no problem.


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## boostinmini (Jan 29, 2013)

Carmel said:


> I run a Mara Pro in the Titan (when not running a Jade), be aware that you will need to install the short reservoir option.
> I think the low leverage ratio works great with the Mara, because you don't need high pos. pressures and therefore the fixed negative pressure is no problem.


Ok thats awesome to know!! I did email banshee a few weeks ago and no response yet.

What do you think of the jade vs mara?


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## Carmel (Apr 21, 2014)

Both work great, the Mara has the benefit of a firm mode for longer rides. The slight bob when pedalling with the Jade never bothers me too much either.
In general I would say the Mara gives a firmer feeling and slightly more pop, which comes from the added progression of air. For the price the Jade is a great deal in my opinion, it slightly rubs in the shock cage though.


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## jb0000 (Mar 30, 2021)

My new Mara pro is making a clicking/knocking noise (already reset air can twice). Happens both pumped up and aired down. I've isolated it to the compression stroke, particularly with quicker compressions. With the compression fully open the rebound adjuster seems to have an effect on the noise. With it closed, to about 5 clicks from closed, the noise is gone. Any ideas?

EDIT: I think it was the white spacer in the negative knocking around. Put grease between it and the shaft, all good now.

EDIT2: it's back now


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## Mr Smith PDX (Oct 9, 2011)

Anyone know if you can stroke limit the Mara Pro with a spacer like the old Mcleod? My bike uses a 200x51 and I have 200x56 Mara Pro. I haven't been able to figure out if the reservoir is going to hit my downtube at bottom out because I need to press out the busing in the lower eyelet first or I can't get it on my bike. If there is interference, would limiting the stroke save me, or is the extra 5mm at the top of the stroke?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Yes you can limit the stroke no problem, that's how different metric strike lengths are achieved.


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## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

Hi Folks,

I searched a bit but couldn't find the answer.

What is the OD of the King Can and the standard can for this shock?

Thanks!


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Manitou Mara Pro


How are you filling it with oil?. RS M5 bleed syringe. I generally pump oil back and forth using the IFP and the syringe. If I try to use suction with the syringe, there is always air in the oil. As soon as I switch to only using positive pressure, I get the bubbles bled out quickly. I think...




www.mtbr.com




That's the large can, small is 43mm in OD.


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## Mr Smith PDX (Oct 9, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> Yes you can limit the stroke no problem, that's how different metric strike lengths are achieved.


Does anyone know how complicated that process is? Am I going to have to take the whole shock apart, put it back together and then bleed and re-pressurize it the IFP? Looking at he rebuild steps I downloaded from here it looks like I need to get all the way to page 11 where the top cap is taken off. Obviously I could skip the seal replacement and all that. However, that's a lot of steps for me to break a brand new shock and I am not sure that I have the skills for all that.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's not that hard, but you do need to take it apart quite far, so bleeding is necessary, I'd make sure limiting the stroke is for sure necessary in that case, and see if your rebound speed is good, might as well do some adjustments if needed, while you're in there.


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## GatorXman (Jun 23, 2014)

Got my Mezzer and Mara Pro mounted up on my Orbea Rise finally. The Fox Factory suspension felt fine, not great, and I already had the fork and bought a second hand Mara Pro when I bought the bike.

Just like my Ripley, even though the stock suspension wasn't bad, its a night and day difference what a Mezzer and this shock can do.

Enough praise, now I need a quick pointer. I spent my ride dialing in the fork and shock and am very happy with the shock settings I got EXCEPT when I want to get both wheels off the ground on jumps. The bike just wants to stay on the ground. I've spent the past couple years on the Mezzer, so I'm confident that's set up to my liking and style. I want to get a little more "pop" from the shock without losing ride quality.

200 lbs kitted
160 PSI (gives me about 30% sag)
HSC +3
LSC +8
R +4

Figured I'd ask you guys with experience tuning these before I start a long process of isolating settings and wasting 2 months dialing in new suspension lol.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Generally if you want more pop, you need more energy given back to you, that means either more spring rate or less compression damping, or both of them together, I wouldn't mess with rebound in this case, however you may need to add more if you do make changes to keep more energy.


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## GatorXman (Jun 23, 2014)

piciu256 said:


> Generally if you want more pop, you need more energy given back to you, that means either more spring rate or less compression damping, or both of them together, I wouldn't mess with rebound in this case, however you may need to add more if you do make changes to keep more energy.


Thanks...it was the LSC. I didn't check how many clicks of LSC my shock had (got it second hand), and it has 35 instead of 25. I had set it from closed and had way too much found a sweet spot, now just have to do some back to backs to finalize my settings.


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## Akira80 (Jul 4, 2011)

Any home mechanic has done a complete 200h service?
Can I do it without the specific tools manitou recommends in its manual, like the compression assembly Pin spanner?
Will use a soft jaw vice for clamping.

Any word of advice before I take it apart?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Imo you don't have to take apart the compression assembly unless you're changing the stack, I managed to unscrew it without the special spanner, by using 2 small hex drive adapters and an adjustable wrench, it was a bit annoying, but managed to take it apart, you could make a tool easily enough, but I'm too lazy.
Rest of the shock doesn't require anything special.


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## Akira80 (Jul 4, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> Imo you don't have to take apart the compression assembly unless you're changing the stack, I managed to unscrew it without the special spanner, by using 2 small hex drive adapters and an adjustable wrench, it was a bit annoying, but managed to take it apart, you could make a tool easily enough, but I'm too lazy.
> Rest of the shock doesn't require anything special.


That's good news.
I want to go by the service manual for the first teardown, maybe reducing work mode compression - any advice on that?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

He a couple of posts back, I believe I described just that


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## Akira80 (Jul 4, 2011)

Thank's @piciu256 
I'll look into it.


piciu256 said:


> He a couple of posts back, I believe I described just that


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## zooky (Jan 24, 2021)

Has anyone had a chance to compare the Mara Pro to a DVO Topaz?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's been discussed, the Topaz is essentially a Monarch/ Deluxe with different stickers, I really hated the preloaded rebound stack on my monarch, and the compression adjuster is vastly inferior, so decide for yourself which is better 
If the Topaz was much cheaper, sure, but they are about even in price, so imo there is no contest.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

zooky said:


> Has anyone had a chance to compare the Mara Pro to a DVO Topaz?


They're not comparable at all. The DVO has very soft compression damping and the base-valve adjuster does very little then gets really firm.
DVO need a new damper base-valve to be remotely competitive and I know they know this.


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## gillyske (Jun 20, 2019)

Sorry if it's been asked before but does anyone know if you can run these at 62.5mm stroke length?


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

gillyske said:


> Sorry if it's been asked before but does anyone know if you can run these at 62.5mm stroke length?


I'm curious about this too cuz it only comes in 60 or 65, and I also need 62.5.

Thing is, I'm sure you _can_ run it at 62.5, the question is how to get it there.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gillyske said:


> Sorry if it's been asked before but does anyone know if you can run these at 62.5mm stroke length?





masonmoa said:


> I'm curious about this too cuz it only comes in 60 or 65, and I also need 62.5.
> 
> Thing is, I'm sure you _can_ run it at 62.5, the question is how to get it there.


No problem at all. You just need a 2.5mm spacer to go on the main shaft.
All these shocks are made at full stroke and then shaft spacers used to reduce travel. 60mm shock is a 65mm with a 5mm spacer inside.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

What about the Mara (non pro) vs the Topaz? Unfortunately i'm 99% sure the Mara Pro won't fit my frame.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

HollyBoni said:


> What about the Mara (non pro) vs the Topaz? Unfortunately i'm 99% sure the Mara Pro won't fit my frame.


Mara Inline has about 2.5x the compression damping of a stock Topaz. There are apparently more valving configurations for the Topaz but you'd need to run a lot of bladder pressure to prevent cavitation. Past their stated max.


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Mara Inline has about 2.5x the compression damping of a stock Topaz. There are apparently more valving configurations for the Topaz but you'd need to run a lot of bladder pressure to prevent cavitation. Past their stated max.


Does this mean the Mara is overdamped or the Topaz under? Not being a jerk; an honest question. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Definitely not overdamped, the McLeod was at high speed before they changed the rebound stack (partially restricting compression ports) but Mara is pretty much an upgraded McLeod, as a reference I weigh 55kg, the bike felt a lot more composed than the Monarch it replaced, didn't have to run stupid amounts of progressivity to avoid bottoming out, which was really appreciated on a 130mm travel bike.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bogeydog said:


> Does this mean the Mara is overdamped or the Topaz under? Not being a jerk; an honest question.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Topaz is underdamped. Mara Inline is right where most 60+kg XC/Trail riders need it.


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## Jrp103 (May 15, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Topaz is underdamped. Mara Inline is right where most 60+kg XC/Trail riders need it.


What topaz are you talking about? What piston and tune did it have and Who built it?

What year bladder and low speed needle did it have?

or just classic Douglas making stuff up with no context or proof?


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

I have used both the Mara Pro and the Topaz and came to the conclusion that I prefer the Topaz quite a lot more. Firstly, i'm a stickler for mid-stroke support and just simply could not get the Mara Pro to give me the right amount of mid-stroke support without making the initial stroke feel very firm. It reminded me of the last shock I bought from Manitou which was an ISX-6 back in 2008. At the time, the ISX-6 was an amazing shock but now in 2022 I much prefer an adjustable negative spring to get the shock setup exactly how I want it. The fixed negative spring on the Mara Pro, IMHO, was simply a poor choice and limits it from working well with a wide variety of body weights. I wish they could go back to the drawing board and match the fantastic negative spring adjustments on the Mezzer fork. Until then, I prefer the Topaz. I no longer think about tweaking the shock - it just works well. That said, perhaps the Mara Pro is better suited towards Enduro or DH riders where the majority of riding is smashing into thing. I ride mostly tight and rooty aggressive single track with lots of climbs and a lift day thrown in 3-4 times a year. I wish I could have made it work and I know it works incredibly well for many folks on this forum. Different strokes for different folks I guess.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

What bike is it about? As in the leverage curve.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I still really enjoy my Mara Pro at my 184# body weight. I did close up the negative chamber on a really chilly day and this did improve midrange support. I think it would just be a lot more simple to have a separate air valve to adjust negative pressure as desired.

The only issue I have is that my Mara Pro & my Mezzer Pro both work best with HSC completely backed off. Otherwise at lift assist days I get some nasty chatter. Both are pretty ideal with HSC completely backed off but I'd rather be in the middle of the adjustment range. Maybe these circuits are just designed for faster/ more aggressive riders than me?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Technically speaking, having them all the way open is ideal, that means the valving is perfect, adding adjustment means adding preload, that may be what you want sometimes, but definitely not at bike parks 😜 In theory you should use the high speed adjuster to find your happy spot and then revolve accordingly.
What bike do you have? (leverage ratio)


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Interesting.

Those Manitou components are on my '21 SJ Evo with a 63.5' HTA and a Cascade link in the rear. I run the air can in half and then 2 volume spacers which gives the shock a 3.1 CR.

Every bike and set up I've ever owned before I had pretty significant complaints about the geo, suspension, pedaling or something else. Which made it very easy to always be searching for my next bike.

I swear this bike just feels so darn perfect however. I can't come up with a replacement frame that I'm certain would be better in any way at all. I am considering the Spire however, for no good reasons at all.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Have you looked at a Propain? It is perfect in my mind, but my criteria may not be the same as yours


Spoiler



I want a lot of travel, but not to feel like I have a lot of travel, as in long travel trail bike instead of small downhill plow tank, so modern, but not super slack angles, high anti squat and pretty high progressivity of the suspension with a nice curve, added points for a water bottle and the suspension layout must not have reliability issues like a yoke driven shock


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> I still really enjoy my Mara Pro at my 184# body weight. I did close up the negative chamber on a really chilly day and this did improve midrange support. I think it would just be a lot more simple to have a separate air valve to adjust negative pressure as desired.
> 
> The only issue I have is that my Mara Pro & my Mezzer Pro both work best with HSC completely backed off. Otherwise at lift assist days I get some nasty chatter. Both are pretty ideal with HSC completely backed off but I'd rather be in the middle of the adjustment range. Maybe these circuits are just designed for faster/ more aggressive riders than me?





piciu256 said:


> What bike is it about? As in the leverage curve.


It's a full carbon Trail Pistol in 130mm Pistolla mode (210mmX55mm).


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

DirtDiggler said:


> It's a full carbon Guerilla Gravity Trail Pistol in 130mm Pistolla mode (210mmX55mm).


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's interesting to me that you weren't happy with the shock, while on a frame that should be pretty well compatible, as in nice leverage curve and enough progressivity, aspecially since I was really happy with a McLeod, nice and supportive, unlike the monarch it replaced (basically the same thing as Topaz, aspecially the air can), which was wallowy and just didn't give me confidence, and my frame had a pretty bad leverage curve (rising rate till sag and then falling rate, for a similar total amount of progressivity as yours)
I do realize most of the mid stroke support came from the damper, not the spring, but I actually prefer that out back- nice and planted, makes me think you may have not given it enough time for setup.
Anyway, just posting my thoughts.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I swear this bike just feels so darn perfect however. I can't come up with a replacement frame that I'm certain would be better in any way at all. I am considering the Spire however, for no good reasons at all.





piciu256 said:


> It's interesting to me that you weren't happy with the shock, while on a frame that should be pretty well compatible, as in nice leverage curve and enough progressivity, aspecially since I was really happy with a McLeod, nice and supportive, unlike the monarch it replaced (basically the same thing as Topaz, aspecially the air can), which was wallowy and just didn't give me confidence, and my frame had a pretty bad leverage curve (rising rate till sag and then falling rate, for a similar total amount of progressivity as yours)
> I do realize most of the mid stroke support came from the damper, not the spring, but I actually prefer that out back- nice and planted, makes me think you may have not given it enough time for setup.
> Anyway, just posting my thoughts.


I tried making it work because it's a CNC'd piece of art and I can appreciate the engineering that went into it. Yes, the Topaz is basically a Monarch plus but the main difference is the Topaz uses a bladder instead of an IFP. There are some smaller differences as well but they clearly share parts. I've ridden a Monarch before and the Topaz has virtually no stiction to get it moving compared to a monarch. I chalk this up the bladder design which doesn't require o-rings like IFP's do. Apparently there is a new Topaz on the way with some more improved features - looks really nice.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Yes the engineering indeed is impressive, when I opened my McLeod up, I saw good quality, but not much more than that (though the compression adjuster was a clever idea) but the Mara? Man is this thing beutifully designed!
Speaking of engineering, I see a lot of wasted potential with the new Topaz, bigger shaft was necessary from durability standpoint (a lot of ebikes coming out with trunnion mount, big guys on heavy bikes that are hard on shocks), but what they did was make it almost impossible to get compression damping if I understand correctly, he didn't mention any main piston changes and the shaft wasn't used for a twin tube layout (huge wasted opportunity, since apparently they made a lot of production changes anyway)
I've read a topic on the DVO Jade which uses the same diameter shaft, and the guy said guys at DVO were having big trouble even getting enough rebound damping for him (big guy on a relatively high leverage frame)


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Interesting. My guess is they did not want to change the design too much since the current design generally gets positive reviews and feedback. But I hear you on the potential for making more significant changes. I've had a 3 different Topaz shocks and one of them came off a Ripmo. The only issue I've had, and it was small one, was not having a fast enough rebound at a bike park. It would be a fairly easy fix but it hasn't been an issue anywhere else. Yeah, the Mara Pro, and frankly all Manitou products, ooze quality and craftsmanship.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Just my two cents having run multiple McLoeds, Mara Pros, and Topazs. Manitou has a better damper, DVO a more tunable air spring. You can tune the DVO to have much stronger midstroke support, but if the Mara has enough midstroke support for you, it eats up chatter better and feels far plusher while still being lively. I can play with the low speed rebound on my mara pro between getting stuck to the ground velcro feeling and poppy, without suffering packing down or bucking.


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## 2xdareya (Nov 3, 2020)

Dear Mara Pro suspension gurus: I got a 210x55 Mara Pro a while ago. It really is amazing (much better than the Bomber CR coil, and infinitely better than the RS Deluxe that came with the bike) but I do have a minor issue: work and party modes aren't very different. I'd like to make work mode stiffer. I'm in an email exchange with Manitou, and, so far, their only suggestion is to send them the shock so they can do some secret sauce; I've asked them to send me shims/parts and instructions, but haven't heard back from them so far. I know that Piciu256 posted something about the shim stacks in rebound, work and party (see post # 973 and 974 in this thread) but I'm not sure I'm understanding how to access/modify only the work mode to slightly increase work mode only compression damping. Any technical advice would be appreciated.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Just add another shim, depending on how much stiffer you want, I'd make sure there is no air in the system first though, imo the mode is plenty stiff enough, but I do not expect a full sus bike to become a hard tail after switching the switch, nor do I want it to, I want to treat the switch as a second set of valving, avaible at will, so made the stack softer.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

2xdareya said:


> Dear Mara Pro suspension gurus: I got a 210x55 Mara Pro a while ago. It really is amazing (much better than the Bomber CR coil, and infinitely better than the RS Deluxe that came with the bike) but I do have a minor issue: work and party modes aren't very different. I'd like to make work mode stiffer. I'm in an email exchange with Manitou, and, so far, their only suggestion is to send them the shock so they can do some secret sauce; I've asked them to send me shims/parts and instructions, but haven't heard back from them so far. I know that Piciu256 posted something about the shim stacks in rebound, work and party (see post # 973 and 974 in this thread) but I'm not sure I'm understanding how to access/modify only the work mode to slightly increase work mode only compression damping. Any technical advice would be appreciated.


Work mode is similar total damping force to max HSC and LSC.
The work mode shim stack is inside the piggyback, it's a flat shim stack with no adjuster. The HSC/LSC shim stack is on the compression valve body with adjusters.


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## zooky (Jan 24, 2021)

Can anyone check the exact diameter of the eyelet please?

Apparently, the Mara has larger than the industry standard?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

zooky said:


> Can anyone check the exact diameter of the eyelet please?
> 
> Apparently, the Mara has larger than the industry standard?


Nope, same as everyone else.


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## zooky (Jan 24, 2021)

I got the following reply from Hayes


> "The OD of the bushings you'll need (and therefore the ID of the eyelets) is 14.03mm-14.06mm. For what it's worth the ID of this bushing is 12mm"


Getting mixed info. A guy from "offset bushings" saying "its larger than others" and now that reply from Hayes


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

zooky said:


> I got the following reply from Hayes
> 
> Getting mixed info. A guy from "offset bushings" saying "its larger than others" and now that reply from Hayes


That info is 11 years out of date.
Since ~2011 the Manitou shocks have used the same 1/2" DU bushings as everyone else. Eyelet bore is 19/32" (15.08mm).


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## zooky (Jan 24, 2021)

Thank you!!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I've got a lightly used Mara Pro 210 x 55 that needs a new home: $350 plus shipping and fees



https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/3274573/


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## Abunchahicks (Mar 12, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> I've got a lightly used Mara Pro 210 x 55 that needs a new home: $350 plus shipping and fees
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/3274573/


I hope this isn’t gone, messaged on PB. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Cary said:


> Just my two cents having run multiple McLoeds, Mara Pros, and Topazs. Manitou has a better damper, DVO a more tunable air spring. You can tune the DVO to have much stronger midstroke support, but if the Mara has enough midstroke support for you, it eats up chatter better and feels far plusher while still being lively. I can play with the low speed rebound on my mara pro between getting stuck to the ground velcro feeling and poppy, without suffering packing down or bucking.


I agree with this statement. The Mara Pro has a much better damper overall.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Use an Allen key as a lever, I'm thinking maybe one could use silicone grease to make it smoother to turn.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Use an Allen key as a lever, I'm thinking maybe one could use silicone grease to make it smoother to turn.


Thanks! Those little holes around the high speed compression knob actually do have purpose !


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## jscottyk (Jun 3, 2009)

Suns_PSD said:


> Liking the Mara Pro very much so far.
> 
> I'm 184#s on an S5 SJ Evo with Cascade running half an air can volume with 1 volume reducer at 165psi.
> 
> ...





Suns_PSD said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Those Manitou components are on my '21 SJ Evo with a 63.5' HTA and a Cascade link in the rear. I run the air can in half and then 2 volume spacers which gives the shock a 3.1 CR.
> 
> ...


After a number of weeks of mostly riding gravel (because of cold sloppy trails), I finally go to ride my '21 SJ Evo with my recently installed Mara Pro. I'm also using a Cascade link so I followed @Suns_PSD lead with my spring set up the pretty much the same. Also, I'm 186 ready to ride. Damping as follows: HSC: min +3*, *LSC: max -14, Rebound: Max -3.

My first ride pretty much mirror's @Suns_PSD to a tee. SW measured compression ratio of 3.1 and these results.









SW is not the "be all, end all" for me but is a good tool to quickly reference setups. For my '21 SJ Evo, this is the best setup I've tried.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Glad to hear it. 

I love to complain about bike parts but I was riding my SJEvo the other day and I remember thinking 'damn this Mara Pro is so good'.

Also, I threw on my SW for a ride for the first time in a good while, because well I've gained weight and like to see what it says compared to what I feel. Just added about 4 psi for the (temporary!) weight gain and all feels well.









Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

Anyone know where to get seal kits right now besides Hayes?


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

afraid said:


> Anyone know where to get seal kits right now besides Hayes?


I've gotten seal kits for their forks from Universal Cycles before.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Was thinking of trying a mara pro on a Revel bike which has a leverage ratio of 2.4 at full travel (2.65 at sag)
Is there anything I need to do in order to get the right tune? Or do I just buy if aftermarket and slap it on?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Any local store that sells sealing supplies, only the dust seal cannot be bought there (but I'd say it can be reused unless cracked).
@jacksonlui you left out the most important info, your weight.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

190lb riding weight 

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

You'll be alright with stock valving I'd say.


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

svinyard said:


> I've gotten seal kits for their forks from Universal Cycles before.


Hey thanks! I checked, they are out of stock. There's someone on Ebay in Ukraine selling kits, not sure if that's a good idea, although even if I didnt get the kit hopefully the money would help?!


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## volcanized (Sep 23, 2008)

Does anyone have extra Rockshox bottomless spacers they’d like to sell me? If so, PM me.
2 would be nice but 4 may be my favorite.

Someone mentioned that the bottomless spacers are 1cc and the Manitou ones are 0.8cc. I figure that I’ll keep one Manitou spacer near the transfer port and add 4 (the maximum possible) Rockshox spacers.

FYI, the Cane Creek volume spacer (blue rubber sheet with 5cc volume) doesn’t fit.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

@Dougal or anyone else...I'd like to "add more volume" spacers to this Mara Pro I've got...but I have the stock King Can already filled up with the black spacers. Is there another way to reduce air volume there? Can I put some extra grease somewhere? How can I do this? Fox spacers maybe?

Context: I'm running like 85 PSI on a kids Freeride XS 26" bike for an 80lb kid and I need more support on the backend for bigger hits (some really big hits actually).

Also...I've got a new Mezzer Pro 27.5 on it as well (I think). So far its doing well and I've got it running at 20PSI I think. Rebound, HSC, LSC is wide open. IRT is like 45 PSI I think. I tore it apart, reduced travel and regreased/oiled everything but that's it. Is there anything critical I should do with that?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Are you actually running enough pressure? Unless you reshimmed the valving super soft, or the leverage is super high, I cannot imagine needing more progression for such a lightweight rider, source? I'm 54kg (120lbs) "heavy" myself, and the damping does the majority of work on big hits already.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

piciu256 said:


> Are you actually running enough pressure? Unless you reshimmed the valving super soft, or the leverage is super high, I cannot imagine needing more progression for such a lightweight rider, source? I'm 54kg (120lbs) "heavy" myself, and the damping does the majority of work on big hits already.


I agree. For the fork, the rebound should be reshimmed to lighten the rebound, there is plenty of info in the Mezzer thread.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

piciu256 said:


> Are you actually running enough pressure? Unless you reshimmed the valving super soft, or the leverage is super high, I cannot imagine needing more progression for such a lightweight rider, source? I'm 54kg (120lbs) "heavy" myself, and the damping does the majority of work on big hits already.


The shocks progression (assumes air shock) and the bikes progression built in to the linkage are the vast majority of what prevents bottom outs. Damping has a slight effect since it effects the rate of suspension movement but it's not the tool to use to prevent bottom outs. You can't just crank in your HSC and back out your HSR to prevent bottom outs because then your suspension would be terrible, to just deal with the occasional big hits. That might work if you are a freestyle motocross rider and do nothing else.

The starting leverage ratio isn't a factor as you indicated in bottom out control. Only the change in leverage ratio (i.e. Progression). The starting leverage ratio just effects the required initial spring rate required to maintain proper sag.

The other part of the bottom out equation (besides the CR of the shock and the progression in the frame's rear suspension) comes down to how hard this kid rides and a bit his terrain as well. Can't just add air pressure if sag is already correct as that's a work around that screws up everything else. You have to set air pressure to get sag right based on the LR and rider weight. This really in one of the non-variables in the suspension setup equation, which is a good thing. You have a very small window to adjust this to make changes for preferences, pedal efficiency and clearance primarily.

It doesn't matter if the rider weighs 120#s or 220#s, if they both ride the same and on the same terrain and their initial sag/ spring pressure is set correctly for both riders, the required progression will be exactly the same for both riders.

The notion that a light rider needs a 2.0 CR and a like heavy rider on the same bike hitting the same stuff will need a 3.0 CR instead is so completely incorrect.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Blah blah blah, all you said is technically correct, but that would assume custom tunes tailored to the specific rider and leverage rate (preserving the damping to spring rate ratio, or whatever that's called), in reality my McLeod with the first revision slightly restrictive compression valving (rebound shim covering the comp ports slightly actually) made me unable to hit full travel no matter what I did, running 30% sag, mid volume king can, 1m drop to flat resulted in 90% travel used and so did a 2m mistake drop to flat, it did feel really stiff obviously, after removing the restriction I was using full travel everywhere, but never felt a bottom out.
Imagine a 2x heavier rider riding on the same tune, the damper does comparatively less work than the spring rate, so you need a higher Cr to avoid harsh bottom outs.
@edIT, I forgot to type the point I was actually trying to make, essentially, unless the stock valving of the shock was altered in a big way, a rider this light has no need for a super high compression ratio, because the damper is dissipating a lot of energy, unless the frame has a rising rate linkage or a crazy leverage like 4:1 or something, and the king can stuffed full imo is a pretty high comp ratio already, almost the same as the small air can, which I was unable to use full travel on with a 2.7-2.4 falling rate frame even when running 40% sag.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Also, about sag, it's literally just a starting point, the way you measure it is not very accurate or repeatable, so all you need is to fit inside a window, say 20-35% is acceptable for preserving geometry and proper kinematics, but generally adding/ subtracting 10 psi doesn't change the sag much, while it does alter the spring rate and thus bottom out support in a significant way.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Sag is set correctly, hence the volume spacers to tune the curve a bit more. Since the HSC is separate circuit from the LSC...I can tighten up the HSC to help but that's something I'd like to avoid if possible. The little guy rides hard for sure. 15ft drops and 25ft gaps off 7ft ramps. That being said, he's going through the travel too easily outside of the huge stuff too. I think with the low PSI and large can volume...its just easy to compress that air and still go through the travel. The bike suspension progression is setup pretty high too (its adjustable). If I could tailor it a bit more I could likely get the curve close enough to what he'd need. I'm not super far off.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

The thing is, from what you said, the can is pretty small already, plus I'm not saying add high speed compression, I'm saying that unless you removed a shim from the stock stack, there is more than necessary damping to prevent harsh bottom outs for a light rider.
Don't obsess about sag, try adding some air.
Do you have an idea of what the leverage graph or numbers look like?
As for getting deep into travel, the shock might be packing down, I doubt the rebound has enough range for this low pressures.
@edIT I guess what's also important is how much travel does the shock have, my experience is based off the unrestricted stroke, as in no travel spacers fitted, with the strike limited the CR will of course be lower.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

OK gotcha. Yeah thats the thing, at this PSI, the shock is likely a bit overdamped....BUT its NOTHING like my Fox suspension which is totally in maple syrup at sag for a kid this size. Dialing in stuff for kids is so hard tho and they provide nearly zero usable feedback lol. Manitou's range here is really impressive compared to our DPX2's.

SO...I can add air into it (I did this yesterday) and get like 25% sag or maybe even 20%. However with the slight overdamping already, along with an 80lb 10yro kid...I'd like to keep it as plush off the top as possible. But you are right, that's a good plan as a backup and thank you. I just need @Dougal to chime in with any wizardry he might have.

The progression listed is like "32%"...tho I'm not expert and it seems like people represent progression in different ways. With that higher amount of progression, I'm good to go there...its fairly coil friendly. I was just hoping for a way to add in a bit more bottom out support. Shock is 210x55 and 150mm of travel on 2020 Rocky Mountain Altitude XS. The Mara Pro has been great for us, just trying to dial it in even further.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

piciu256 said:


> Blah blah blah, all you said is technically correct, but that would assume custom tunes tailored to the specific rider and leverage rate (preserving the damping to spring rate ratio, or whatever that's called), in reality my McLeod with the first revision slightly restrictive compression valving (rebound shim covering the comp ports slightly actually) made me unable to hit full travel no matter what I did, running 30% sag, mid volume king can, 1m drop to flat resulted in 90% travel used and so did a 2m mistake drop to flat, it did feel really stiff obviously, after removing the restriction I was using full travel everywhere, but never felt a bottom out.
> Imagine a 2x heavier rider riding on the same tune, the damper does comparatively less work than the spring rate, so you need a higher Cr to avoid harsh bottom outs.
> @edIT, I forgot to type the point I was actually trying to make, essentially, unless the stock valving of the shock was altered in a big way, a rider this light has no need for a super high compression ratio, because the damper is dissipating a lot of energy, unless the frame has a rising rate linkage or a crazy leverage like 4:1 or something, and the king can stuffed full imo is a pretty high comp ratio already, almost the same as the small air can, which I was unable to use full travel on with a 2.7-2.4 falling rate frame even when running 40% sag.


You are the one that posted an incorrect solution. No need to condemn me for correcting your incorrect info, politely I might add.

Sure, it's true that the incorrect valving that doesn't function correctly can resist utilizing your travel like in your example. Which is exactly why we don't use valving, or spring rate, to compensate for bottom outs. You use the progression in the bike frame or the air shock.

Anyways.


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## sunshine_fab (12 mo ago)

deleted


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

svinyard said:


> @Dougal or anyone else...I'd like to "add more volume" spacers to this Mara Pro I've got...but I have the stock King Can already filled up with the black spacers. Is there another way to reduce air volume there? Can I put some extra grease somewhere? How can I do this? Fox spacers maybe?
> 
> Context: I'm running like 85 PSI on a kids Freeride XS 26" bike for an 80lb kid and I need more support on the backend for bigger hits (some really big hits actually).
> 
> Also...I've got a new Mezzer Pro 27.5 on it as well (I think). So far its doing well and I've got it running at 20PSI I think. Rebound, HSC, LSC is wide open. IRT is like 45 PSI I think. I tore it apart, reduced travel and regreased/oiled everything but that's it. Is there anything critical I should do with that?


Yes grease works. Here is the curve you get from a 55mm stroke Mara Pro on mid-volume.

You will want to reshim that fork. Speed up both rebound and compression.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

sweet. Ok where exactly do I put the grease? I have slickoleum.

Any recommendation on shim configuration?
I’m new to doing that on this fork and trying to hunt down some videos and materials.




Dougal said:


> Yes grease works. Here is the curve you get from a 55mm stroke Mara Pro on mid-volume.
> 
> You will want to reshim that fork. Speed up both rebound and compression.
> View attachment 1977914


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

@Suns_PSD nowhere did I say fix, I said that if you have a lot of damping, harsh bottom outs are not an issue.


svinyard said:


> The progression listed is like "32%"...tho I'm not expert and it seems like people represent progression in different ways. With that higher amount of progression, I'm good to go there...its fairly coil friendly. I was just hoping for a way to add in a bit more bottom out support. Shock is 210x55 and 150mm of travel on 2020 Rocky Mountain Altitude XS. The Mara Pro has been great for us, just trying to dial it in even further


The only conclusion I can get is you're measuring SAG wrong 😅 plenty progressive linkage, probably slightly overdamped shock and packed full of volume spacers on top, the leverage ratio is also pretty normal so no weird stuff going here, I cannot imagine a 30% lighter person than me bottoming out hard with this setup, unless the pressure is actually too low.
I personally measure SAG with seat slammed, arms straight on the grips and legs hovering slightly, quick, easy and completely repeatable, the last part is most important, I aim for around 30% sag this way, results in a bit less in normal seated positions good for climbing, also tried 25% with this method and worked pretty well too with this shock (didn't work at all with a Monarch, couldn't actually get to 25% 🤣), didn't feel any disadvantages and did provide a bit more pop.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Sag is set correctly. I think I've got it stacked with all of the black spacers it will take, tho I'll double check that today. I saw a guy use the red foam ring from the Manitou Small Parts Kit and put it up inside the top of a McLeod with normal can (he sliced it and slid it up to the top of the main chamber). Pic below. Can I also do this on the Mara Pro with the king can with positive effect? I also have some white hard plastic rings in that kit of about the same size. Unsure what those are for.

View attachment 1977974


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

The ring, be it foam or plastic sound like a great idea, much more repeatable than grease, could even do something fancy like pu an oring on it to stop from rattling/ sliding around.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

So I've bumped into a few reviews where the guys really complained about the suppleness off the top of the shock, potentially due to the non-adjusting negative chamber. Since I'm running such low pressure for a kid, should be setting this up in any particular way? I've been focused on getting some more progression, which I found that I still had one more black-spacer slot available to use. Seemed like the right thing on paper but is there anything else I should be considering here?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Not an issue for a low psi positive pressure situation. You already have a lot of negative pressure overcoming not a lot of positive pressure so the shock should be very supple.

I'd test opening up the shock on a good warm day and closing it up in those conditions to reduce the air mass in the negative chamber to better match to your low positive air pressure.

BTW, I've never heard anyone complain about the Mara Pro not being supple enough.

What bike is this shock on and what pressure are you running? Are you checking sag in the seated position as you should be for a shock?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Here's Erice Van Leuven on a Mara Pro that I setup for her a few weeks ago.
The Commencal Clash Jr is quite progressive and she's quite light but rides hard. Result seems very good:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Cb9gurXB2j-/

Full air can volume.
150psi air.
Rebound -9 clicks.
LSC (red), -2 clicks.
HSC (grey) +3 clicks.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

She’s a national treasure, very cool you get to work with her. Neat to see her just shredding, having a blast on a bike throwing super-woman’s and not just racing/going fast. She’s the ultimate pilot for her age. I wish she could make it up to the ladies freeride scene that’s taking off in the PNW/Utah. Those are fun events.

Can you clear up some confusion for me and tell me roughly what that % shock sagged out to please?

It’s hard with groms as they can ride basically anything and make it look good. The looser the better lol. (Is it appropriate to know her rough weight range too?). Maybe there are some other options I should be considering.



Dougal said:


> Here's Erice Van Leuven on a Mara Pro that I setup for her a few weeks ago.
> The Commencal Clash Jr is quite progressive and she's quite light but rides hard. Result seems very good:
> 
> __
> ...


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

Can anybody guide me in the right direction or tell me about swapping piggybacks? I've got 2 Mara Pros, one brand new that doesn't fit my frame, and one just a couple of months old that has the shorter piggyback. I've read the service manual, which shows directions on how to break it down to service the ISP, but I don't want nor need to pull it all apart for full service. Just swap them out. Do I need to open up the reservoir? And I know I'll have to add oil, but will I need to bleed too? Thanks.

I also need to swap out the 5mm travel spacer to a 2.5 on the new one, which I think is way over my pay grade and more than I really wanted to deal with. But this shock is so damn good, I had to put one on my other bike cuz the Float X was not cutting it.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I think if you go cautiously about it, you may get away without doing a full bleed, but at the very least, you have to remove the reservoir and fill it up with oil after replacing, should be doable if you don't have 2 left hands, good to do a spring service afterwards, while you're at it though, because why not.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

svinyard said:


> She’s a national treasure, very cool you get to work with her. Neat to see her just shredding, having a blast on a bike throwing super-woman’s and not just racing/going fast. She’s the ultimate pilot for her age. I wish she could make it up to the ladies freeride scene that’s taking off in the PNW/Utah. Those are fun events.
> 
> Can you clear up some confusion for me and tell me roughly what that % shock sagged out to please?
> 
> It’s hard with groms as they can ride basically anything and make it look good. The looser the better lol. (Is it appropriate to know her rough weight range too?). Maybe there are some other options I should be considering.


I have no idea what the sag is, I don't bother measuring it or calculating it in detail. Shock spring-rates are done on mid-stroke and I'm using a weight multiple for end-stroke progression. This one needed full can volume due to frame progression. Just under 50kg I think. She's going to rewrite a lot of the womens MTB scene over the next few years.

This tuning I'm all doing remotely. Calculating tunes, setting up shocks and forks (different bike though) on the dyno and then sending them back.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I see. I’m quickly out of my league with some of that. Do you offer a service that would do some of the same calculation for what we are running? It’s a 2020 Rocky Mountain Altitude XS. We can trade emails if so (I think I still have yours). Thanks for the mini-education.


This is apparently the curve for the bike. It has a flip called "Ride9" that changes things depending on the position its set too.











Dougal said:


> I have no idea what the sag is, I don't bother measuring it or calculating it in detail. Shock spring-rates are done on mid-stroke and I'm using a weight multiple for end-stroke progression. This one needed full can volume due to frame progression. Just under 50kg I think. She's going to rewrite a lot of the womens MTB scene over the next few years.
> 
> This tuning I'm all doing remotely. Calculating tunes, setting up shocks and forks (different bike though) on the dyno and then sending them back.


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## Starry Firmament (Sep 15, 2019)

Anyone have the pressure chart for mara pro rear shock?
i downloaded the setup guide but there is no pressure chart.
I am a 80kg rider.
Thanks in advanced.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's not possible to make one, every frame has different leverage ratio and how it changes through the stroke, a good starting point seems to be your weight in pounds, adjust for sag or frequency from there.


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> I think if you go cautiously about it, you may get away without doing a full bleed, but at the very least, you have to remove the reservoir and fill it up with oil after replacing, should be doable if you don't have 2 left hands, good to do a spring service afterwards, while you're at it though, because why not.


Thanks. But why do a spring service on a brand new shock? And another nearly brand new one with maybe 15 hours of riding? Just curious.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Because it only takes a minute when you have the shock off the bike already, plus you reset the negative spring, which may have lost some pressure over time, you don't know how long it has been sitting.


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> Because it only takes a minute when you have the shock off the bike already, plus you reset the negative spring, which may have lost some pressure over time, you don't know how long it has been sitting.


Gotcha. And ya, resetting the negative spring was already part of the plan. Kinda funny cuz I didn't do it right away when I got the first Mara, and made a big difference when I finally did.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

I am seeing lots of talk on this thread from people adding spacers to reduce the King can volume due to more linear frame designs - have many people tried to remedy this by going to the standard can rather than the king can? Wouldn't that be the best option to increase mid stroke support or is there still some benefit you are trying to gain with the king can?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Dougal said:


> Here's Erice Van Leuven on a Mara Pro that I setup for her a few weeks ago.
> The Commencal Clash Jr is quite progressive and she's quite light but rides hard. Result seems very good:
> 
> __
> ...


Some days I really wish I could ride like a girl.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

SB666 said:


> I am seeing lots of talk on this thread from people adding spacers to reduce the King can volume due to more linear frame designs - have many people tried to remedy this by going to the standard can rather than the king can? Wouldn't that be the best option to increase mid stroke support or is there still some benefit you are trying to gain with the king can?


Best option to increase midstroke support is a larger can with more pressure. A smaller can increases rampup to control bottoming.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

svinyard said:


> I see. I’m quickly out of my league with some of that. Do you offer a service that would do some of the same calculation for what we are running? It’s a 2020 Rocky Mountain Altitude XS. We can trade emails if so (I think I still have yours). Thanks for the mini-education.
> 
> 
> This is apparently the curve for the bike. It has a flip called "Ride9" that changes things depending on the position its set too.
> View attachment 1978213


Set to 9 which gives the least progression. Set compression full open air can to large. Adjust pressure to try and get 25-30% sag at the shaft and go from there. Small riders need less progression. I went through this when my son was growing and there were few options. If he is bottoming, decrease the can volume.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

Cary said:


> Best option to increase midstroke support is a larger can with more pressure. A smaller can increases rampup to control bottoming.


Are you still benefiting from the larger can if you’re someone who is maxing out positive air spacers, running smallest volume you can with that larger can?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

No need to ask obvious questions, I'd say.
I'm gonna ask another though 
I assume the work mode stack is generally stiffer than the main compression stack, since the shims are thicker and there is more of them, it is preloaded too add to that, I removed a couple of those to make it more like a second preset than a full lockout, but I'd still guess it's stiffer (unless the size of the ports has something to say)
So to the point, could it be used as a secondary preset not only for mellow trails, but also for large hucks to flat, you know, those pointless ones you do to impress your friends 😜 would it be of any benefit over cranking the main adjuster all the way in, plus can the shock body handle the pressure?
I'm thinking one in particular, slow speed, 3m in height to about 30° slope, no landing.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

SB666 said:


> Are you still benefiting from the larger can if you’re someone who is maxing out positive air spacers, running smallest volume you can with that larger can?


Start by removing some spacers and adding pressure. Use pressure to adjust midstroke support (as well as a low speed compression which will effect it some), spacers and high speed to control bottoming. You have to play around to find your best balance, but for me when in doubt more volume and higher pressure.

Keep in mind, because the negative volume and pressure is fixed, the heavier of a rider you are, the less midstroke support the shock will have. The only way to increase it is more pressure. The Mara will never have the over the top support of a Topaz, but also has much better dampening and eats chunk much better.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

Cary said:


> Start by removing some spacers and adding pressure. Use pressure to adjust midstroke support (as well as a low speed compression which will effect it some), spacers and high speed to control bottoming. You have to play around to find your best balance, but for me when in doubt more volume and higher pressure.
> 
> Keep in mind, because the negative volume and pressure is fixed, the heavier of a rider you are, the less midstroke support the shock will have. The only way to increase it is more pressure. The Mara will never have the over the top support of a Topaz, but also has much better dampening and eats chunk much better.


this is really helpful! Luckily I am 175 with gear on which is probably right at average for most suspension setup


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## cmuell89 (Jun 26, 2017)

Hey all, scouring all the reviews and forums. I'm selling a 2020 Float X2 as I couldn't get past the grounding non-poppy nature on my frame [2019 RM Instinct] despite the amazing traction performance on the downs. Looking at the Mara Pro and while it seems to be well-received performance-wise, I am curious about its serviceability. Should most suspension shops be able easily service this shock w.r.t know-how and parts?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

At home service is no problem, see the service guide to see how simple it is, no special tools necessary either, so I don't see a good bike shop not handling it, some may refuse just from the fact of it not being rock shox or Fox, so keep that in mind. Cannot comment on parts avaibility, however you can most of the important stuff (seals) at your local hardware store.

Ps. Mara pro fits a Propain Tyee 2020, just barely mind you, about 2mm clearance at the closest point, including ditching the reservoir cap, good enough for me 😁


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

cmuell89 said:


> Hey all, scouring all the reviews and forums. I'm selling a 2020 Float X2 as I couldn't get past the grounding non-poppy nature on my frame [2019 RM Instinct] despite the amazing traction performance on the downs. Looking at the Mara Pro and while it seems to be well-received performance-wise, I am curious about its serviceability. Should most suspension shops be able easily service this shock w.r.t know-how and parts?


so here’s the deal. I just threw on a Mara Pro onto my kids Altitude. Same hardware as the Instinct (my bike). The lower eyelet hardware likely wont be as tight of a fit into the Mara pro. I was worried at first but once on the bike it’s rock solid when I reef off it etc. 

These bikes are super progressive in the lower ride9 settings. Surprised you can’t get the X2 to pop?? Avalanche told me they were likely a better candidate for a coil than air shock. With the Mara being pretty linear it’s likely a good air option, tho I’m not an expert there.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I've heard just about everyone who used the X2, say that it has a tendency to sit deep into its travel, so with the progressive linkage he likely couldn't use too much pressure, which resulted in a hard to pop rear end, that or maybe something with either the dampers tune or setup itself.
That's my theory at least, maybe someone with more experience will chime in.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Ok, had my first ride on this shock, at first when setting sag, I had mixed feelings, felt way too soft, wallowy even, then I remembered there is a low speed adjustment, cranked it all the way in, that's more like it 
Combined with my frames high beginning leverage ratio, which smoothly transitions from 3.3-2.4 and rock shox counter measure spring (not sure how much it brings, since didn't try without it) there is almost no preload to overcome at the beginning of the travel, the shock actually sags a little under the weight of the bike! The small bump compliance is impressive to say the least, eats up big holes very well also, don't have real chunk to comment on though, so not sure if it's gonna pack down, on that note removing one of the rebound shims gave perfect results for my weight @55kg, running the shock @100psi and fell right smack in the middle of the adjustment range, on the other hand I removed too much shims from the platform, cause there isn't a noticeable difference when switching the lever, it is a little more supportive, but not enough to be of any use as a secondary damping preset, it does reduce pedal bob slightly though, while still providing ample traction.
Is it possible to remove the assembly without having to completely rebleed the shock?
The only issue apart from my failed guess at work mode time is that the shock, while tracking like there was no tomorrow, doesn't want to pop off the ground unless I put a lot of effort in, don't really have any range left to add spring rate without losing avaible travel either, since running full volume already and barely using full travel on biggest hits while running around 30% sag.
Will try winding out the low speed, but not really keen on that idea really.


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## cmuell89 (Jun 26, 2017)

svinyard said:


> so here’s the deal. I just threw on a Mara Pro onto my kids Altitude. Same hardware as the Instinct (my bike). The lower eyelet hardware likely wont be as tight of a fit into the Mara pro. I was worried at first but once on the bike it’s rock solid when I reef off it etc.
> 
> These bikes are super progressive in the lower ride9 settings. Surprised you can’t get the X2 to pop?? Avalanche told me they were likely a better candidate for a coil than air shock. With the Mara being pretty linear it’s likely a good air option, tho I’m not an expert there.


It’s not so much that I can’t get it to pop per se. I just feel the 2020 X2 has this weird tendency to blow through its midstroke on pedally bits and climbs. Even in the firm mode. It’s like once it passes a certain threshold through it’s stroke no amount of LSC keeps it from wallowing through its travel. Bombing Colorado chunk it is simply amazing how much traction it gives. But even on descents seemingly innocuous trail features can cause a bottom out. Granted I come from an XC background and treat the rear end suspension as something of a compromise between ultra efficiency and traction. So perhaps the X2 is just too far down the spectrum for my riding style

When I throw the stock DPS on there, the bike just feels dramatically different. It wants to pop off every little feature. So I’m of a mind to have some sort of in between like the new Float X, the Mara Pro, or something else.

Stoked to hear it’s easily serviceable.
Would anyone know the leverage ratio of the 2018-2020 RM instinct. The travel over stroke length gives about 2.6.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I’ve been at this a bit already. Try this. Remove the volume spacers and add more PSI on the X2. That will help give you more mid stroke and pop. I’ve done it with a DPX2 and it’s noticeable. With the bike being so progressive already, you are likely to have the bottom out support you’ll need too once your air curve is dialed in better.

You can also go for one of the steeper, more linear ride9 settings too. It’s a big swing in progression. Obviously the HTA gets a bit steep but a Wolftooth Geo Shift fixes this and makes it a better bike with more versatility. Hell who wants a 67hta on a 140/150mm bike anyways?



cmuell89 said:


> It’s not so much that I can’t get it to pop per se. I just feel the 2020 X2 has this weird tendency to blow through its midstroke on pedally bits and climbs. Even in the firm mode. It’s like once it passes a certain threshold through it’s stroke no amount of LSC keeps it from wallowing through its travel. Bombing Colorado chunk it is simply amazing how much traction it gives. But even on descents seemingly innocuous trail features can cause a bottom out. Granted I come from an XC background and treat the rear end suspension as something of a compromise between ultra efficiency and traction. So perhaps the X2 is just too far down the spectrum for my riding style
> 
> When I throw the stock DPS on there, the bike just feels dramatically different. It wants to pop off every little feature. So I’m of a mind to have some sort of in between like the new Float X, the Mara Pro, or something else.
> 
> ...


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## cmuell89 (Jun 26, 2017)

svinyard said:


> I’ve been at this a bit already. Try this. Remove the volume spacers and add more PSI on the X2. That will help give you more mid stroke and pop. I’ve done it with a DPX2 and it’s noticeable. With the bike being so progressive already, you are likely to have the bottom out support you’ll need too once your air curve is dialed in better.
> 
> You can also go for one of the steeper, more linear ride9 settings too. It’s a big swing in progression. Obviously the HTA gets a bit steep but a Wolftooth Geo Shift fixes this and makes it a better bike with more versatility. Hell who wants a 67hta on a 140/150mm bike anyways?


I did remove a spacer and I’ve pressured up enough to get more like 25 percent sag. Maybe a touch more? 20 percent sag will probably start to reduce its ability to soak chunder which at that point makes me think maybe I’m just chasing for something that a different shock is better suited to provide.

I ride this instinct in position 6 butI bumped the travel with 150mm Lyrik. So I got a little more slackness from that.

No doubt, this is all relative as the bike is damn good fun.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

cool, yeah I’m running mine with a 150 36 and it’s a blast of a bike. I’m not sure id want to go up to 20% sag, seems like things are getting weird. Maybe a new shock is the ticket



cmuell89 said:


> I did remove a spacer and I’ve pressured up enough to get more like 25 percent sag. Maybe a touch more? 20 percent sag will probably start to reduce its ability to soak chunder which at that point makes me think maybe I’m just chasing for something that a different shock is better suited to provide.
> 
> I ride this instinct in position 6 butI bumped the travel with 150mm Lyrik. So I got a little more slackness from that.
> 
> No doubt, this is all relative as the bike is damn good fun.


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## cmuell89 (Jun 26, 2017)

I appreciate the feedback. Sold the X2 so now I’m split between RS SD U, new float X, or the Mara pro. Decisions decisions. Anyone have any recommendations on a best fit for the RM instinct which is on the more progressive linkage side of suspension kinematics?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I'd skip the SD personally, not a fan of it's damping configuration, can be fixed by a knowledgeable tuner, but that adds cost, I can say that the Mara pro plays very nicely with a progressive frame, it did ok on a less progressive one, and apparently some people hate it on linear frames, the new Float X should be pretty good also I believe, it's a simple but proven damping arrangement.


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## megablue (Jul 20, 2020)

Anyone have time on a newer X2 and the Mara pro? Or have time on a Mara pro in a transition frame? I love my X2 to death but the constantly looming main seal is annoying. Especially on trips out of town. I’m ready to go to something else and I can get a great deal on a Mara pro


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## Akira80 (Jul 4, 2011)

Did anyone try using less than 300 psi IFP pressure?

After a full service, my Mara was much much stiffer than usual (same air spring pressure). Tried to reset the air can.
Then lowered Ifp pressure to 250psi, and then to 225 - magic hovering-tracking back again.
I never checked IFP before, so I assume it was always less than 300...or I've messed something up while servicing.

I'm 158 lb geared up on Ripmo V1, 127psi, half negative chamber and using full travel.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

You probably set the IFP depth too low, I have mine @300 and it's the most sensitive thing I've ever ridden.


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## Akira80 (Jul 4, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> You probably set the IFP depth too low, I have mine @300 and it's the most sensitive thing I've ever ridden.


///I'm pretty sure it is the right depth for the shock size but I will recheck it.
Just to be sure - releasing IFP pressure and opening it won't mess up the bleed, right?


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Is there anybody running a Manitou Mara on their Trance 29er?

Searching for DPS alternative and have Manitou forks for last 15y.


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## rain164845 (Jul 6, 2008)

megablue said:


> Anyone have time on a newer X2 and the Mara pro? Or have time on a Mara pro in a transition frame? I love my X2 to death but the constantly looming main seal is annoying. Especially on trips out of town. I’m ready to go to something else and I can get a great deal on a Mara pro


Just curious, where can you get a great deal on the mara pro?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

rain164845 said:


> Just curious, where can you get a great deal on the mara pro?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I purchased my first Mara Pro at Starbike (in Germany). They have great pricing, but shipping takes 2-3 weeks to the U.S. I bought my second one here: Manitou Mara Pro Air Shock . Takeahike is located in Maine. They have good prices and fast shipping. Do a coupon code search before you purchase. I found a 10% when I ordered.


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## rain164845 (Jul 6, 2008)

DirtDiggler said:


> I purchased my first Mara Pro at Starbike (in Germany). They have great pricing, but shipping takes 2-3 weeks to the U.S. I bought my second one here: Manitou Mara Pro Air Shock . Takeahike is located in Maine. They have good prices and fast shipping. Do a coupon code search before you purchase. I found a 10% when I ordered.


Awesome, thank you. Unfortunately, I can't find a 190x45 pro anywhere. Even the 190x40 would work though.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rain164845 said:


> Awesome, thank you. Unfortunately, I can't find a 190x45 pro anywhere. Even the 190x40 would work though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Pretty sure the Mara Pro doesn't go that small. You need the Mara Inline.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

My shock appears to be losing air slowly, double checked to make sure, 5psi in around a weeks time, including a day in the mountains, not sure it's relevant, the shock doesn't get sucked down so not going to the negative chamber, there seems to be a slight oil/ grease residual at the air can- body joint, attracting dirt and remaining wet, should I replace the oring, or is it more likely it's just a piece of debris? Don't have time to take it apart at this moment.


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## siggy85 (Feb 25, 2013)

I just received my Mara Pro in the mail and will be installing it on my Ripmo V2. I was browsing through the service manual and it instructs to fill up the piggy back to 300 PSI before riding. When I went to confirm with Manitou they told me I should only be filling the main air can. Seems like I'm getting conflicting info. Could anyone help clarify?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

You are obviously supposed to fill the piggy back after a service, so with he air can off, you may double check if it's at 300psi, but I wouldn't worry about it.


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## siggy85 (Feb 25, 2013)

piciu256 said:


> You are obviously supposed to fill the piggy back after a service, so with he air can off, you may double check if it's at 300psi, but I wouldn't worry about it.


Thank you. So I should only have to worry about filling the piggy back after opening the main air can?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Only after removing the piggyback pressure really, if you're paranoid, may as well check the pressure every time you take the can off for basic service, wouldn't hurt anything, as for myself, I made sure it hasn't come down in a months time, and left it as is.


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## siggy85 (Feb 25, 2013)

piciu256 said:


> Only after removing the piggyback pressure really, if you're paranoid, may as well check the pressure every time you take the can off for basic service, wouldn't hurt anything, as for myself, I made sure it hasn't come down in a months time, and left it as is.


I'm super paranoid. So I can always just double check and if the piggyback is below 300 psi I should fill it back to that pressure?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Ye I guess so, just remember that the volume is low, so you lose a lot of pressure just by connecting the pump, can overcome that by pre charging the hose to the expected pressure inside before screwing the adapter on all the way to open the Schrader valve.


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## Valamorn (Nov 4, 2010)

When I setup Mara pro IFP, which depth measurement is correct, 1 or 2?


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## Akira80 (Jul 4, 2011)

Valamorn said:


> When I setup Mara pro IFP, which depth measurement is correct, 1 or 2?
> 
> View attachment 1982255


Judging by one of the answers in this thread - 1 is the correct one.


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

megablue said:


> Anyone have time on a newer X2 and the Mara pro? Or have time on a Mara pro in a transition frame? I love my X2 to death but the constantly looming main seal is annoying. Especially on trips out of town. I’m ready to go to something else and I can get a great deal on a Mara pro


Don't know which frame you're looking to put on on, and my comment is probably very frame/travel specific, but the Mara Pro does not fit on my XXL Sentinel. As in the piggyback hits the frame upon full compression. I don't have any time on it yet as I still have to swap piggy backs with a shorter stroked Mara I have on another bike, so no comment yet on performance.


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## megablue (Jul 20, 2020)

masonmoa said:


> Don't know which frame you're looking to put on on, and my comment is probably very frame/travel specific, but the Mara Pro does not fit on my XXL Sentinel. As in the piggyback hits the frame upon full compression. I don't have any time on it yet as I still have to swap piggy backs with a shorter stroked Mara I have on another bike, so no comment yet on performance.


Ah, yeah I have a medium alloy spire. So I doubt it’ll fit. I figured as much with how long the piggy back is


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

How will the Manitou Mara Pro work for higher pressure and heavier weighted riders. I am 250lb on bike and I cannot wrap my head around how a pre set negative air chamber can work for higher pressured air spring? 
I have read a couple of tests that does not get the Mara Pro to work with pre set negative air pressure? How come it is not discussed here in this forum, since it should obviously be an issue?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Judging from the McLeod thread, it actually works better than a shock with a large self adjusting neg chamber, since the latter has a big issue with forced sag.


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## siggy85 (Feb 25, 2013)

olejpres said:


> How will the Manitou Mara Pro work for higher pressure and heavier weighted riders. I am 250lb on bike and I cannot wrap my head around how a pre set negative air chamber can work for higher pressured air spring?
> I have read a couple of tests that does not get the Mara Pro to work with pre set negative air pressure? How come it is not discussed here in this forum, since it should obviously be an issue?


I'm 225lbs and it's been amazing. Only had run 180psi to hit desired sag. Usually i'm above 250psi.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I still wish you could call up Manitou and order a "custom" Mara Pro. IE - shortest reservoir, low-volume air can, etc.

Personally, I do not like the lack of shaping on the Mara Pro's King Can. I don't like that same look on the CC DBA, the DVO Topaz, Suntour TriAir, Fox X2, etc. 

Alternatively, I think the Fox Float X is a sexy little shock. 










And the not yet released 2023 Super Deluxe:









I like Manitou's early prototype of the Mara Pro with its low volume can and more interesting "svelte" shape:


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

olejpres said:


> How will the Manitou Mara Pro work for higher pressure and heavier weighted riders. I am 250lb on bike and I cannot wrap my head around how a pre set negative air chamber can work for higher pressured air spring?
> I have read a couple of tests that does not get the Mara Pro to work with pre set negative air pressure? How come it is not discussed here in this forum, since it should obviously be an issue?


Well man, I'm a little bigger than you and I'm loving my Mara Pros. Was a CC fanboy up until I found the Kitsuma Air left something to be desired and I bought my first Mara. Not much time on them yet, like only a couple months, but so far, so good. 

And ya, I'm running pretty low pressures compared to other brands, even the 2 Float Xs I need to sell.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PHeller said:


> I still wish you could call up Manitou and order a "custom" Mara Pro. IE - shortest reservoir, low-volume air can, etc.
> 
> Personally, I do not like the lack of shaping on the Mara Pro's King Can. I don't like that same look on the CC DBA, the DVO Topaz, Suntour TriAir, Fox X2, etc.
> 
> ...


Proportions depend on shock size. A 190x45 looks totally different to a 230x65. But yeah being able to choose can volume and a shorter piggy back would be nice.

Fun fact, that negative volume bulge on a lot of Fox rear shocks is solid aluminium. Sizes/applications that don't need or want the negative volume have the bulge outside and straight wall inside.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Yep, likely because Fox knows the shape of the shock exudes some sort of product differentiation. Just like Manitou and the reverse arch.

or a more simplified manufacturing process where it’s cheaper to shape the outside of the air can but not the inside, but send them all through the same line.

Either way, I don’t care for the aesthetics of the King Can.

Dougal, did we ever get a LV can for the Mara Pro, or do they just expect us to reduce air can volume with reducers?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Yah, I too would like to know if I can swap for a low volume can and get the same CR.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

masonmoa said:


> Well man, I'm a little bigger than you and I'm loving my Mara Pros. Was a CC fanboy up until I found the Kitsuma Air left something to be desired and I bought my first Mara. Not much time on them yet, like only a couple months, but so far, so good.
> 
> And ya, I'm running pretty low pressures compared to other brands, even the 2 Float Xs I need to sell.


That is good to hear, but still I am confused by how the higher pressure vs. static negative spring pressure? I have had an old Fox 40 with "static" negative spring (actually a coil spring) that actually made it ride not as good as I wanted it to do. Still I am convince that the Mara Pro is awesome price/performance vise when you compare to all other. Looking at Kitsuma and X2 as well.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PHeller said:


> Yep, likely because Fox knows the shape of the shock exudes some sort of product differentiation. Just like Manitou and the reverse arch.
> 
> or a more simplified manufacturing process where it’s cheaper to shape the outside of the air can but not the inside, but send them all through the same line.
> 
> ...


I haven't been able to supply a Mara Pro LV can yet. It's certainly possible but stock shortages have been the killer.


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## boostinmini (Jan 29, 2013)

What kind of frame suspension design favors a mara shock since it does not have self equalizing air chamber? Less progressive, more progressive?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's been said before, a leverage that's progressive from the beginning would be ideal, since high leverage at the beginning "hides" the beginning of the stroke and low leverage at the end allows for use of the high volume can, imo it's the most versatile type of leverage curve in general- not much worse than linear on natural chunk, but very good on big hits as it increases both the damper and spring resistance the deeper you are in the stroke.


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## boostinmini (Jan 29, 2013)

piciu256 said:


> It's been said before, a leverage that's progressive from the beginning would be ideal, since high leverage at the beginning "hides" the beginning of the stroke and low leverage at the end allows for use of the high volume can, imo it's the most versatile type of leverage curve in general- not much worse than linear on natural chunk, but very good on big hits as it increases both the damper and spring resistance the deeper you are in the stroke.


 Great info.

I am getting a custom steel frame, comes with no shock so have had a few maras and loved them.. Absolutely transformed my banshee rune.

But the custom frame suspension kimatics are a little unknown..

Says it will come with a neatral shock shuttle but a progressive one is available..

I love the mid stroke of the mara so leaning that way..

What kind of questions should i be asking the frame builder to see how happy a mara would be?


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## Valamorn (Nov 4, 2010)

Now I noticed that my Mara pro does not compression for the full travel. About 6mm remains at full compression. Its normal? 

This 210x50mm shock with a 5mm aluminum spacer removed. The air piston now rests against the inside o-ring at full compression.

Has anyone removed the o-ring to get more shock travel?


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Valamorn said:


> Now I noticed that my Mara pro does not compression for the full travel. About 6mm remains at full compression. Its normal?
> 
> This 210x50mm shock with a 5mm aluminum spacer removed. The air piston now rests against the inside o-ring at full compression.
> 
> ...


Is there a bottom out bumper in there?


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## Valamorn (Nov 4, 2010)

If you about the red foam ring in the negative chamber it's there. 
But how does it affect shock compression?


DirtDiggler said:


> Is there a bottom out bumper in there?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It doesn't go to the end of the piston, end of story. Measure actual travel, not how far it's from the edge 😅
As for removing the "bottom bumper" in the shape of an oring, imo stupid idea, could probably damage the shock in the long run (metal to metal contact)


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## Valamorn (Nov 4, 2010)

piciu256 said:


> It doesn't go to the end of the piston, end of story. Measure actual travel, not how far it's from the edge 😅
> As for removing the "bottom bumper" in the shape of an oring, imo stupid idea, could probably damage the shock in the long run (metal to metal contact)


What was it for? Using lower tubes of the same length on shocks with different sizes?

You are probably right. I'm loss to measure the real stroke, but the lower tube length more than 55mm. Length from axle to axle 210mm.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

That's just how the legth comes out, the body is longer than the stroke, doesn't have to mean anything or be any purpose to it, I'm guessing it's a result of reusing the air can for several different shock lengths, in general "metric" sized shocks have some body left after a bottom out, while the "imperial" ones tended to go all the way to the end.
Just put a piece of tape for reference where the stroke ends, just so you know when you used full travel, if you want to know.


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

Do you need a shock pump that goes higher than 300 psi to be able to get the ifp chamber up to 300?
Lost my shock pump, shopping for a new one.

recommendations?
Thanks!


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

N"aaronka970, post: 15642543, member: 488791"]
Do you need a shock pump that goes higher than 300 psi to be able to get the ifp chamber up to 300?
Lost my shock pump, shopping for a new one.

recommendations?
Thanks!
[/QUOTE]
Just to 300, I have one of the run of the mill digital pumps.


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## rain164845 (Jul 6, 2008)

Do these shocks run the same shim stacks as the McLeod? 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Haven't compared, but doubt it. Unless you're talking about the inline version, then it's essentially the same shock, so yes.


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## rain164845 (Jul 6, 2008)

Did anyone have any shim stack diagrams for the Mara pro with various Dyno charts etc? 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rain164845 said:


> Do these shocks run the same shim stacks as the McLeod?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Totally different, they also have a base-valve which the McLeod doesn't. The Mara Inline is closely related to the McLeod but shim stacks and pistons have changed.


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## rain164845 (Jul 6, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Totally different, they also have a base-valve which the McLeod doesn't. The Mara Inline is closely related to the McLeod but shim stacks and pistons have changed.


Great, thank you!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## EVgEEk (Jan 8, 2015)

Whew! I’ve digesting all 1240 posts over the last six days, in preparation of receiving my Mara Pro. First, thanks to all that contributed REALLY valuable information to this thread, especially @Dougal and @CCS86.

My ride weight is 200lbs kitted, and ride a Ripmo AF with DVO Topaz installed. The Ripmo Topaz has a REALLY lite compression tune, and I had the option to send back to DVO (their customer service is GREAT!) for custom shim tune ($200), but I was swayed to the Mara Pro due to the extra adjustability. I was hoping to get more mid-stroke support. After reading all 62 pages of this thread, I am a bit nervous given all the mixed messages I hear about the lack of mid-stroke support for heavy riders due to the fixed neg-chamber. I think I have an idea of a starting point, but would like to hear everyone’s suggestions.

Ripmo AF (Large) numbers:


20.8% progression
Staring at 3.18 and drops to 2.52 (average is 2.68)
210x55mm shock











I’m thinking of starting with the following:


Remove air can and place O-ring in middle position (if not there already)
Biggest question: Leave the stock spacers (I think they normally come with 2 or 3) or max out the number of pos-chamber spacers? I’m hoping the Topaz spacers fit, I have extra.
Air down the IFP and re-install the air can while holding it in the back of the freezer (to increase the neg-chamber pressure)
Pump IFP back up to 300psi
Start with ~25% sag as a starting point.
I ride in central North Carolina, where the trails require pedaling, with lots of roots and rocks. But also spend a lot of time at a new local Gravity park with machine built (big) jump lines. I like the bike to respond to my inputs, and prefer a setup to be more poppy than dead. Thanks to anyone who read my long thread and provides feedback. Looking forward to it!


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Your leverage curve is pretty much ideal for mid strome support, I don't think you'll have any issues in that regard, as for end stroke support, I'd say try with half volume no spacers and add if necessary, it's easy enough to check for overall end strome support in a parking lot, if you're able to bottom out there, then it's definitely too soft, on your bike it's also possible to adjust without taking the shock off the bike, so I'd take advantage of this.


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## EVgEEk (Jan 8, 2015)

piciu256 said:


> Your leverage curve is pretty much ideal for mid strome support, I don't think you'll have any issues in that regard, as for end stroke support, I'd say try with half volume no spacers and add if necessary, it's easy enough to check for overall end strome support in a parking lot, if you're able to bottom out there, then it's definitely too soft, on your bike it's also possible to adjust without taking the shock off the bike, so I'd take advantage of this.


Thanks for the quick reply. I can also adjust the DVO Topaz spacers on the bike, but also risk exposing the neg-chamber. Is it the same for the Mara? The reason I ask, is because I plan on resetting the neg-chamber in the freezer to gain some extra pressure, and don't want to lose that if I expose the neg-chamber to ambient environment while changing out the pos-chamber spacers while still installed on the bike.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

The neg chamber is completely sealed off as long as you don't take the shock apart.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

EVgEEk said:


> Whew! I’ve digesting all 1240 posts over the last six days, in preparation of receiving my Mara Pro. First, thanks to all that contributed REALLY valuable information to this thread, especially @Dougal and @CCS86.
> 
> My ride weight is 200lbs kitted, and ride a Ripmo AF with DVO Topaz installed. The Ripmo Topaz has a REALLY lite compression tune, and I had the option to send back to DVO (their customer service is GREAT!) for custom shim tune ($200), but I was swayed to the Mara Pro due to the extra adjustability. I was hoping to get more mid-stroke support. After reading all 62 pages of this thread, I am a bit nervous given all the mixed messages I hear about the lack of mid-stroke support for heavy riders due to the fixed neg-chamber. I think I have an idea of a starting point, but would like to hear everyone’s suggestions.
> 
> ...



The Mara Pro is a really fun shock and rides very different than other shocks - especially the Topaz you have. The initial breakaway is very hard/stiff but once it's into sag it gobbles up roots and bumps better than most shocks. The Topaz is almost the opposite, it's very subtle off the top but mediocre at absorbing roots and high speed bumps. You're going to have to re-think what you require for mid-stroke support with the Mara. If you can get used to having a little less of it you will be rewarded with a shock that eats up rocks better than many air and coil shocks. At 220#'s I couldn't get quite enough mid-stroke support to make it work. But, once I went back to my old Topaz I really noticed how much better the dampening is on the Mara Pro.


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## afraid (Oct 18, 2009)

Just got my shock back from Hayes. I had requested an additional king can spacer and the rebound tune to be modified so that I wouldn't have to be half a click from fully closed most of the time. On the rare bike park or flow trail day I would close it off almost completely. This wasn't a deal breaker, but I figured why not have it tuned slightly for more options? 

Here's what they said:
Shock now has modified rebound tune as well as one King Can spacer installed, new bias spring and additional bias springs added.

What are bias springs for? Does the "modified rebound tune" involve these and a shim stack?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

DirtDiggler said:


> The Mara Pro is a really fun shock and rides very different than other shocks - especially the Topaz you have. The initial breakaway is very hard/stiff but once it's into sag it gobbles up roots and bumps better than most shocks. The Topaz is almost the opposite, it's very subtle off the top but mediocre at absorbing roots and high speed bumps. You're going to have to re-think what you require for mid-stroke support with the Mara. If you can get used to having a little less of it you will be rewarded with a shock that eats up rocks better than many air and coil shocks. At 220#'s I couldn't get quite enough mid-stroke support to make it work. But, once I went back to my old Topaz I really noticed how much better the dampening is on the Mara Pro.


Maybe it's because of my high initial leverage ratio on my Cascade equipped SJ Evo? Maybe it's because I intentionally closed my negative chamber up on practically the coldest day of the year?

However my Mara Pro's initial breakaway is considerably better than the EXT coil shock I use to run.

I find this shock to be very very good at absolutely everything.

Only changes I'd like to see is I wish I could just choose a smaller air can as my King Can is cut in half with 2 or 3 volume spacers as it is, so I'm just carrying around a lot of useless air can. Also would like to see an independently adjustable negative chamber.

I'll have to at least consider the new EXT air shock.


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## cheftuskey121 (7 mo ago)

I’ve been lurking for awhile and am so thankful for all of the knowledge here. I ride a polygon t8 27.5. It’s 150/150 from the factory. Shock is a 210x55.
I recently put a Cane Creek DB kitsuma air on my bike and it seems better than the fox dps that it replaced and there’s a lot of tweaking potential. However I am intrigued by the mara pro. Does anyone here have first hand experience with both?

I am a tinkerer by nature but also just like to ride my bike. I just bought a Mezzer pro that I have not yet installed and am wondering if it’s worth getting the Mara pro instead of the kitsuma?

I‘m in central VA and most of the stuff here is rooty and flowy with some drops and small jumps. I get up to northern VA and MD where there’s a lot of rocks, and out to bike parks like Bryce and Snowshoe as well. I enjoy parks and DH more than anything but local trails are more XC oriented. My buddy and I like to find wood features like jumps, drops, wall rides. I hope that helps some. Fwiw it’s worth I have read every page of both Mezzer threads and a decent amount of the Mara pro thread but I can only consume so much before I just have to get out and ride. I like that the Mara is user serviceable, because I like to work on my own bike in detail. Just looking to see if it’s worth swapping for any and all reasons. I realize I’m asking in a manitou thread but there’s so little info on the Kitsuma shock (settings, feedback, etc)
Thanks!


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

cheftuskey121 said:


> I’ve been lurking for awhile and am so thankful for all of the knowledge here. I ride a polygon t8 27.5. It’s 150/150 from the factory. Shock is a 210x55.
> I recently put a Cane Creek DB kitsuma air on my bike and it seems better than the fox dps that it replaced and there’s a lot of tweaking potential. However I am intrigued by the mara pro. Does anyone here have first hand experience with both?
> 
> I am a tinkerer by nature but also just like to ride my bike. I just bought a Mezzer pro that I have not yet installed and am wondering if it’s worth getting the Mara pro instead of the kitsuma?
> ...


Yes, I previously had a Mara Pro on a ‘19 Spec Stumpjumper and now have a Cane Creek DB Kitsuma air on the bike. The only reason I changed was because the SJ ate the Mara Pro and Manitou said the shock wasn’t fixable. I think the Mara Pro is a slightly better shock, but I don’t think it’s better enough to justify spending the money on buying it when you already have a Cane Creek. If you hadn’t already purchased a Cane Creek and were debating between the two, then I would say go for the Mara Pro. The next air shock that I purchase for a future bike will be a Mara Pro. My recommendation (if you do want to make a change), is to continue riding the Cane Creek and watch the Hayes site for sales, maybe they’ll have a 4th of July, Labor Day, or Black Friday sale with a good deal.

Overall, how they stack up against one another:
Ease of set-up: Cane Creek (their stock rebound/compression settings ended up being ideal for me)
Performance: slight edge to the Mara Pro
Maintenance for home serviceability: Mara Pro
Maintenance at service centers: Cane Creek (at least near me in SoCal)
Cost: Mara Pro


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## cheftuskey121 (7 mo ago)

Moosedriver said:


> Yes, I previously had a Mara Pro on a ‘19 Spec Stumpjumper and now have a Cane Creek DB Kitsuma air on the bike. The only reason I changed was because the SJ ate the Mara Pro and Manitou said the shock wasn’t fixable. I think the Mara Pro is a slightly better shock, but I don’t think it’s better enough to justify spending the money on buying it when you already have a Cane Creek. If you hadn’t already purchased a Cane Creek and were debating between the two, then I would say go for the Mara Pro. The next air shock that I purchase for a future bike will be a Mara Pro. My recommendation (if you do want to make a change), is to continue riding the Cane Creek and watch the Hayes site for sales, maybe they’ll have a 4th of July, Labor Day, or Black Friday sale with a good deal.
> 
> Overall, how they stack up against one another:
> Ease of set-up: Cane Creek (their stock rebound/compression settings ended up being ideal for me)
> ...


hey thanks moosedriver. What about the mara pro do you think makes it a better shock when it comes to performance. I don’t know that I’ve ridden the kitsuma enough to dial it in but it’s so much more supple than the dps. It seems to be working hard in a good way and has really shown how sub par the fox 34 rhythm is in comparison 

I am between 185 and 190lbs kitted depending on how many tacos I ate that day. I am looking forward to getting my Mezzer pro set up and on the bike when I get back from vacation.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

cheftuskey121 said:


> hey thanks moosedriver. What about the mara pro do you think makes it a better shock when it comes to performance. I don’t know that I’ve ridden the kitsuma enough to dial it in but it’s so much more supple than the dps. It seems to be working hard in a good way and has really shown how sub par the fox 34 rhythm is in comparison
> 
> I am between 185 and 190lbs kitted depending on how many tacos I ate that day. I am looking forward to getting my Mezzer pro set up and on the bike when I get back from vacation.


When I bought the Mara Pro I was in the same weight range as you, I’m currently at 175 lbs with full kit. I’m probably going to do a poor job trying to describe the difference, but I’ll do my best. There seems to be people who like their suspension to feel plush like a magic carpet that just tracks the terrain and feels like butter. And then there seems to be people who think that feels too dead and want more trail feedback to transmit through the shock. The Mara Pro fits more into that plush magic carpet/butter smooth category, while the Cane Creek provides more trail feedback. I’m sure you could dial in the Mara Pro to provide that feedback if that’s what you prefer, whereas I haven’t been able to dial out the feedback of the Cane Creek to match how I had the Mara Pro. On descents, when you drop your heels and gravity takes over, both shocks feel very similar. They are both extremely supple and are fantastic at tracking the terrain. When your heels are level or up while pedaling on flats or climbs, the Mara Pro maintains that plush feeling and just tracks the terrain. The Cane Creek is a little less plush and I can feel more bounce off of rocks versus the Mara Pro rolling over/tracking the rocks. We have a few trails with good stretches of breaking bumps. The Mara Pro handles them without issue, I was always amazed at how well the shock smoothed them out, even compared to the Mezzer Pro on the front. I also use a Mezzer Pro, it’s an amazing fork, but, in my opinion, its one weak area (when compared to how well it performs everywhere else) is with handling breaking bumps, it is a bit harsh. The Cane Creek handles breaking bumps very similarly to the Mezzer Pro, while the Mara Pro was just on a completely different (superior) level.

Edit: When re-reading my response, I feel like I talked up the differences between the two shocks more than they should be and made the Mara Pro sound like a vastly superior shock over the Kitsuma DB Air. These two shocks are both great, and I still believe that the Mara Pro is the slightly better shock, but it isn’t by a large margin.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

cheftuskey121 said:


> hey thanks moosedriver. What about the mara pro do you think makes it a better shock when it comes to performance. I don’t know that I’ve ridden the kitsuma enough to dial it in but it’s so much more supple than the dps. It seems to be working hard in a good way and has really shown how sub par the fox 34 rhythm is in comparison
> 
> I am between 185 and 190lbs kitted depending on how many tacos I ate that day. I am looking forward to getting my Mezzer pro set up and on the bike when I get back from vacation.


Also, with the Cane Creek Kitsuma DB Air, the compression and rebound is pre-set, so if you’re needing to make a bunch of changes, you should take everything back to the stock setting and adjust your PSI and start over. I found for me that at 30-33% sag I didn’t need to change any dials, but when I set the PSI firmer than that, around 25-28%, then I need to start making adjustments. Here’s Cane Creek’s adjustment guide if you need it.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

Hi all, just wanted to confirm that the 210x50 can be easily converted to 210x55? I imagine you just remove the air can and remove some travel reducer spacers, does that sound right?


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## rain164845 (Jul 6, 2008)

SB666 said:


> Hi all, just wanted to confirm that the 210x50 can be easily converted to 210x55? I imagine you just remove the air can and remove some travel reducer spacers, does that sound right?


I would email them and ask. It might be a pretty involved job...

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> However my Mara Pro's initial breakaway is considerably better than the EXT coil shock I use to run.
> 
> Only changes I'd like to see is I wish I could just choose a smaller air can as my King Can is cut in half with 2 or 3 volume spacers as it is, so I'm just carrying around a lot of useless air can. Also would like to see an independently adjustable negative chamber.


You can purchase an LV can from Manitou. It's not cheap. Here: Mara Pro Air Can


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

SB666 said:


> Hi all, just wanted to confirm that the 210x50 can be easily converted to 210x55? I imagine you just remove the air can and remove some travel reducer spacers, does that sound right?


It's a travel spacer on the damper shaft you need to change. The shock needs depressurised, the shock body removed, the piston/shims removed, the seal head removed then it all reassembled, rebled and repressurised.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

Dougal said:


> It's a travel spacer on the damper shaft you need to change. The shock needs depressurised, the shock body removed, the piston/shims removed, the seal head removed then it all reassembled, rebled and repressurised.


Step 5 here had me hopeful it was more straightforward :-/



https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/360071701094/Mara_Pro_Piggyback_Complete_Service_Guide.pdf


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## Symion (Feb 6, 2009)

@Dougal 
Has anyone problems with air in the damping oil an knocking sounds, especially when the shock gets hot?

I already have the third SKF IFP installed which works now. Unfortunately the oil gets airy really quick and the shock starts to knock when the oil is getting warm. Tried different shaft seals but this keeps anoying me.


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## tastik (Aug 25, 2021)

I have a question about doing the quick "vaccum bleed" with one syringe at the end of the damper body near the eyelet.. Do you keep the IFP fully pressurized doing this (worried oil would shoot out and IFP would be in a wrong position afterwards)? Or do you release IFP pressure first (again worried the IFP will be displaced during the syringe/push pull).


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

EVgEEk said:


> Whew! I’ve digesting all 1240 posts over the last six days, in preparation of receiving my Mara Pro. First, thanks to all that contributed REALLY valuable information to this thread, especially @Dougal and @CCS86.
> 
> My ride weight is 200lbs kitted, and ride a Ripmo AF with DVO Topaz installed. The Ripmo Topaz has a REALLY lite compression tune, and I had the option to send back to DVO (their customer service is GREAT!) for custom shim tune ($200), but I was swayed to the Mara Pro due to the extra adjustability. I was hoping to get more mid-stroke support. After reading all 62 pages of this thread, I am a bit nervous given all the mixed messages I hear about the lack of mid-stroke support for heavy riders due to the fixed neg-chamber. I think I have an idea of a starting point, but would like to hear everyone’s suggestions.
> 
> ...


If you measure the progression from sag it ain't 20%. That's a similar curve to the v3 Mach 6 I have, with a Mara Pro of course. I set it up to factory recs plus a couple clicks of LSC in Open position. Rides great.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Symion said:


> @Dougal
> Has anyone problems with air in the damping oil an knocking sounds, especially when the shock gets hot?
> 
> I already have the third SKF IFP installed which works now. Unfortunately the oil gets airy really quick and the shock starts to knock when the oil is getting warm. Tried different shaft seals but this keeps anoying me.


I've never seen or experienced that. I've had them very hot on the dyno too.


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

[E="tastik, post: 15663389, member: 917171"]
I have a question about doing the quick "vaccum bleed" with one syringe at the end of the damper body near the eyelet.. Do you keep the IFP fully pressurized doing this (worried oil would shoot out and IFP would be in a wrong position afterwards)? Or do you release IFP pressure first (again worried the IFP will be displaced during the syringe/push pull).
[/QUOTE]
If you open the damper bleed screw with the IFP pressurized it will blow oil out. It's actually dangerous to do as the oil would be pressurized to the pressure of the IFP pressure. 

I have started vacuum filling my dampers. It just gets done faster, and the oil is degassed and there is no gas in the damper.


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## tastik (Aug 25, 2021)

TXrocks said:


> I have started vacuum filling my dampers. It just gets done faster, and the oil is degassed and there is no gas in the damper.


can you detail the procedure? at the end, do you open up the ifp cap and push it back into place before closing the screw?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

@Symion what frame is it on? May it be that the shock cannot handle the side loading that's put on it? In such case, no amount of seal replacement etc. will solve the issue, some frames just need super robust shocks, and even then need bleeding quite often.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Can a climb switch be fitted to the Mara Pro?

Thanks!


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## EVgEEk (Jan 8, 2015)

TylerVernon said:


> If you measure the progression from sag it ain't 20%.


Can you expand on this? I am no suspension guru so I'm interested in your feedback. I got all my leverage curve info here:


https://www.pinkbike.com/news/behind-the-numbers-ibis-ripmo-v2-2020.html


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Progression should be measured from the sag point (30% for a AM bike) to 95% because of the bump stop skewing things greatly after that point.

So from 44mm to 141mm travel on this bike

The Ripmo has 8% progression (2.72-2.53 = .19/ 2.53 = 7.5%) which is essentially linear. If you do any jumps or drops I'd start your Mara Pro with the most reduced air volume you can get. However if your riding style is to stay on the ground and lots of chunder, you'll prefer a more linear set up.


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## Symion (Feb 6, 2009)

@piciu256 

This could be an answer. I ride a Nicolai G1, which shouldnt have that problem.
I hope that manufacurers will someday make 16mm eyelets, so spherical bearings can be installed. Such a bummer that this didnt happen yet.


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## EVgEEk (Jan 8, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Progression should be measured from the sag point (30% for a AM bike) to 95% because of the bump stop skewing things greatly after that point.
> 
> So from 44mm to 141mm travel on this bike
> 
> The Ripmo has 8% progression (2.72-2.53 = .19/ 2.53 = 7.5%) which is essentially linear. If you do any jumps or drops I'd start your Mara Pro with the most reduced air volume you can get. However if your riding style is to stay on the ground and lots of chunder, you'll prefer a more linear set up.


Thanks! That makes a lot of sense. I've started to tune in the shock on my local jump park, and I have already maxed out the positive chamber bands. I haven't measured but I'm sure I'm running less than 20% sag, but surprisingly it is feeling really good. Not too much chunder in central North Carolina, but will probably want to run lower pressures and more sag for the trips to the mountains in western North Carolina later this Fall. 

This shock is a bit of an enigma to me. I'm running really low sag and when I look down at the sag indicator, and after hitting jumps I am going through full travel but it still feels like I'm getting good mid-stroke support. I must have the HSC and LSC tuned correctly. I would love to install a camera on the bike facing the shock, and see if it moves through all its travel on the take off or the landing of the jump.


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> Can a climb switch be fitted to the Mara Pro?
> 
> Thanks!


I'm working on a solution for this. Especially on my Guerilla Gravity, the shock placement with trying to switch it is a handful. I have been thinking about the normal run of the mill cable climb switch. The other thought is a solenoid that can change the porting with a switch on the handlebars. Switch up for climb, down for party! Solenoid would fail to the party mode in the event of loss of power.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Just got a Mara Pro installed. The low pressure that seemed to be used is not working for me. I have 230psi on 145mm travel and I am weighing 255lb. That is approx 30% sag, and is actually needed otherwise the suspension bottom out to easy. Another issue is the rebound seem all to slow, and the shock top out when cycle it. The compression does give a bit difference, but not a lot and still with closed both HSC and LSC it seems still pretty open to me? Any suggestion if there is any issues with the shock or if it needs to be tuned for my weight/ pressure. Otherwise it seems pretty plush, but still not tested on trail yet.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Start by resetting the negative chamber by disassembling the shock. Preferably in a cool place to get more air density in the negative chamber.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

TXrocks said:


> I'm working on a solution for this. Especially on my Guerilla Gravity, the shock placement with trying to switch it is a handful. I have been thinking about the normal run of the mill cable climb switch. The other thought is a solenoid that can change the porting with a switch on the handlebars. Switch up for climb, down for party! Solenoid would fail to the party mode in the event of loss of power.


That would be super cool.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> Start by resetting the negative chamber by disassembling the shock. Preferably in a cool place to get more air density in the negative chamber.


Okay, to get a lower pressure on the negative air chamber? I am pretty sure it is much lower temperature here compared to the place it was manufactured/assembled? Here it is 15-20 C degrees and maybe half of Taiwan average temperature?


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> Start by resetting the negative chamber by disassembling the shock. Preferably in a cool place to get more air density in the negative chamber.


I might get misunderstood, since I am not dissapointed about mid stroke support, since that seems really good, compared to EXT Storia V3 with 700lb spring, it actually sits higher. It is more that it seems to blow through to easy, and that it has top out sensation when cycling the shock. It might not be an issue with top out on trail, but we will see.
I might get more bottom out resistance with air reducers in air can?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> I might get misunderstood, since I am not dissapointed about mid stroke support, since that seems really good, compared to EXT Storia V3 with 700lb spring, it actually sits higher. It is more that it seems to blow through to easy, and that it has top out sensation when cycling the shock. It might not be an issue with top out on trail, but we will see.
> I might get more bottom out resistance with air reducers in air can?


Top-out is a symptom that the air-can needs reset. No problem to do that at any temperature.
700l/bin is a pretty serious spring-rate. You may need more compression and rebound damping.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Top-out is a symptom that the air-can needs reset. No problem to do that at any temperature.
> 700l/bin is a pretty serious spring-rate. You may need more compression and rebound damping.


Okay, I forgot to tell it is an ebike, so probably a 25-50 lb rate higher then normal. Anyway, could I ask to point me towards the # of entry that explains resetting the shock? I suppose it is emptying for air and screw off can. 
When you say more compression and rebound, you men to do a different tune on the shock? Do you think it needs to be both shim stack and main valve?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Just pop off the primary air can completely and reinstall by just removing the o-ring/ clip and pulling the can off down towards the shaft. It can be hard to reinstall because air pressure fights you so you might be able to install it in the frame and sit on the bike to force it down. 

As far as if you need to reduce the air volume in the outer can, that depends. For a starting point I'd make certain the outer positive can is reduced in half unless your bike is super progressive stock, like 35%+.

GL

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> Just pop off the primary air can completely and reinstall by just removing the o-ring/ clip and pulling the can off down towards the shaft. It can be hard to reinstall because air pressure fights you so you might be able to install it in the frame and sit on the bike to force it down.
> 
> As far as if you need to reduce the air volume in the outer can, that depends. For a starting point I'd make certain the outer positive can is reduced in half unless your bike is super progressive stock, like 35%+.
> 
> ...


Popped off and reset it. That helped some with both air pressure and top out. It is needed to be completely closed rebound to not get top out. 1 clock out does top out, so it should be revalved. That is strange since it is no around 200 psi/30% ish sag, and max is 250? Also possible to use less compression damping and it wallows less. It shows some good signs on trail, but to early to tell before I get to test it more properly.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

What surprises me most with the shock, is the plush initial feel, that probably is because of the rubber IFP divider? Assume it is pretty low friction as well. Sad if it cannot be used stock, since I am not interested in spending money on tuning. Suppose I need to return it, since it is a to expensive back up shock.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

olejpres said:


> What surprises me most with the shock, is the plush initial feel, that probably is because of the rubber IFP divider? Assume it is pretty low friction as well. Sad if it cannot be used stock, since I am not interested in spending money on tuning. Suppose I need to return it, since it is a to expensive back up shock.


Tuning is worth every penny IMO. 

If you buy another aftermarket shock, you might run into the same issue. I don't think one single tune can work for all the different rider weights and all the different kinematics.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

HollyBoni said:


> Tuning is worth every penny IMO.
> 
> If you buy another aftermarket shock, you might run into the same issue. I don't think one single tune can work for all the different rider weights and all the different kinematics.


Yeah I know, but I need to ship it abroad to get it tuned. Shipping only will cost a fortune.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Who tunes them?


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> Who tunes them?


Actually not sure where I need to ship it in Europe? Maybe TFtuned in UK?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Who tunes them?


Me:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Cfut8fxvWWu/

I haven't put up pricing yet but I've tuned at least 4 of them. Usually for people who were on the edge or outside the stock range. But I've currently got my one on the tuning bench after owning it for over 18 months and never opening it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> Okay, I forgot to tell it is an ebike, so probably a 25-50 lb rate higher then normal. Anyway, could I ask to point me towards the # of entry that explains resetting the shock? I suppose it is emptying for air and screw off can.
> When you say more compression and rebound, you men to do a different tune on the shock? Do you think it needs to be both shim stack and main valve?


My tuning process starts with collecting bike and rider weights and geometry. Then we bracket riders for riding style and that's enough to calculate spring and damper rates.
It's only at that point you can know what needs done and make a plan on how to do it.

The frame progression also determines what volume you need in the air-can. These have several volume options and volume spacers that can be clipped in too.

Resetting the air-can is simply removing, lubing and reinstalling it. The negative air is trapped on reassembly but bleeds down over 3-6 months riding.


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## Bicmtb123 (Sep 26, 2021)

Hi guys,
Shock newbie here. I'm looking to buy a Mara Pro (210x50mm) for my Revel Rascal. However, I would like to be flexible and make it also fit a longer travel bike (210x55mm). I've seen posts about reducing the stroke, but I'm not sure if I can extend the stroke. Can you confirm if this can be done? Appreciate the help!


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's been discussed a milion times before, metric sized shock with different strokes are the same, just with travel/ stroke limiting spacers, remove the spacer and you get the longer stroke version.


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## Bicmtb123 (Sep 26, 2021)

piciu256 said:


> It's been discussed a milion times before, metric sized shock with different strokes are the same, just with travel/ stroke limiting spacers, remove the spacer and you get the longer stroke version.


Massive thanks from this newbie, Piciu256!


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Me:
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Cfut8fxvWWu/
> ...


It is probably cheaper for me to return mine and buy a new tuned one from you? I am not sure what it cost for shipping to Norway, but cheaper then send and return it from NZ?


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> My tuning process starts with collecting bike and rider weights and geometry. Then we bracket riders for riding style and that's enough to calculate spring and damper rates.
> It's only at that point you can know what needs done and make a plan on how to do it.
> 
> The frame progression also determines what volume you need in the air-can. These have several volume options and volume spacers that can be clipped in too.
> ...


What needs to be lubed? The o-rings in the air can?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> It is probably cheaper for me to return mine and buy a new tuned one from you? I am not sure what it cost for shipping to Norway, but cheaper then send and return it from NZ?


I have tuned fork dampers from Norway, but not yet shocks. Generally speaking the shipping isn't a big deal but customs can be a major PITA.



olejpres said:


> What needs to be lubed? The o-rings in the air can?


The quad-ring seals at the end of the air-can, the main piston quad-ring and the inner surface of the air-can. But make sure you don't end up with too much grease caught in the negative chamber.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

So tested on trail today. The shock fell totally through when it got hot. It worked like a pogo stick. I need to send back. To much things out of control for me, and disappointing since I thought it could be promising. I am not sure but problems will get even worse with negative air pressure and heat. Besides the hydraulic did not get the control I am after, when both compression and rebound got worse with higher temperature/ thinner oil.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

How do I get rid of this sound?




It didn't do it at the beginning, then got louder, and now stays like this, doesn't affect performance as far as I can tell, but is bugging me like hell, since it sounds like a seized bearing 🤣


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> How do I get rid of this sound?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That zipping noise? The laughing in the background?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> So tested on trail today. The shock fell totally through when it got hot. It worked like a pogo stick. I need to send back. To much things out of control for me, and disappointing since I thought it could be promising. I am not sure but problems will get even worse with negative air pressure and heat. Besides the hydraulic did not get the control I am after, when both compression and rebound got worse with higher temperature/ thinner oil.


How hot are you getting a Mara Pro?

I've been able to get the older inline McLeod hot enough to change damping. That was hot enough you didn't want to touch it. Maybe 50C on a 25C day. Moving to a higher VI oil and different rebound tune cured that.
I can't get the Mara Pro more than about 10C over ambient. It's got over twice the oil inside and a lot more metal for cooling.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Dougal said:


> That zipping noise? The laughing in the background?


Where the hell do you hear laughing in the background on this clip? Everything that's heard is coming from the shock, the zipping noise when cycling slowly, the scratching noise when cycling quickly.
It's been greased a week ago, my McLeod did the same, just not that loud, and without the scratching noise on faster cycling- it got quiet at that point, I was suspecting the check valve, but have my doubts, since the Mara has quite a bit different oil flow arrangement.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Where the hell do you hear laughing in the background on this clip? Everything that's heard is coming from the shock, the zipping noise when cycling slowly, the scratching noise when cycling quickly.
> It's been greased a week ago, my McLeod did the same, just not that loud, and without the scratching noise on faster cycling- it got quiet at that point, I was suspecting the check valve, but have my doubts, since the Mara has quite a bit different oil flow arrangement.


Sounds never record and play back as you'd expect. That's why the music industry spends millions on autotune to sell vapid lyrics by talentless clowns.

Zipping sound is usually air-can backup rings. They need to be a snug fit to keep everything centred. Swooshing sound is usually oil and in a test like that rebound setting has the biggest effect.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

To me it sounds just like irl, both when played back on headphones, or phones speaker.
Anyway, are you saying that probably my glide/ backup rings are worn already? That's weird, since the shock is barely half a season old 🤷‍♂️ Cannot remember how quickly the McLeod started doing this, but that one was probably normal time for wear.
Is there a risk of damage if I don't replace them soon, or can I ride safely like that till the end of the season?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> To me it sounds just like irl, both when played back on headphones, or phones speaker.
> Anyway, are you saying that probably my glide/ backup rings are worn already? That's weird, since the shock is barely half a season old 🤷‍♂️ Cannot remember how quickly the McLeod started doing this, but that one was probably normal time for wear.
> Is there a risk of damage if I don't replace them soon, or can I ride safely like that till the end of the season?


That's how new/good backup rings can sound. Worn ones don't make any noise. A customer of mine polished the inside of the air-can and he said that made it quieter.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

That's good and bad news at the same time 🤣 was hoping I screwed something up, so it could be fixed 🤷‍♂️ not gonna risk destroying the can by polishing, zero experience in that area.


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## jb0000 (Mar 30, 2021)

Hi all.
My brand new Mara pro has been knocking even after I reset the negative chamber.
I have observed that the knock only appears above a certain compression velocity. I went a step further and removed the air can and the shock still knocks without it.
To my ears it sounds like it is happening on the rebound stroke.
I will be highly interested in hearing your thoughts about the source of the issue. I am certain the knock is originating inside the shock and I would like to fix it myself without re-bleeding the entire thing, if possible.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jb0000 said:


> Hi all.
> My brand new Mara pro has been knocking even after I reset the negative chamber.
> I have observed that the knock only appears above a certain compression velocity. I went a step further and removed the air can and the shock still knocks without it.
> To my ears it sounds like it is happening on the rebound stroke.
> I will be highly interested in hearing your thoughts about the source of the issue. I am certain the knock is originating inside the shock and I would like to fix it myself without re-bleeding the entire thing, if possible.


If it's inside then bleeding is unavoidable. I'd send it in for warranty.


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## wutzzz (6 mo ago)

Hi guys, 

It took me some days to go over the 1303 posts. I would like to 👏👏 the multiple members in the thread that have contributed outstanding knowledge, craftsmanship and creativity, let alone their billable time. In specific, Dougal, CCS86 and Cary. 

*My situation:*
Recently I have decided to give a last stretch of life to my sled, and I have opened an original post here👇👇
*








Coil shock on a SC Bronson V1 2015?


Hi guys, I need all of the suspension nerds guidance that I can get. Bike: SC Bronson C V1 2015 (magenta and pink) Mods: Magura Mt7 42.5 Burgtec stem 800mm SC C handlebars 180mmrotors Pike with Luftkappe Riding style: I am making the bike work—can’t justified spending $ in newer...




www.mtbr.com




*
...after following Cary's advice, I found a good deal in bike-discount.de—the cost of the shock is much cheaper if you get it shipped to Europe—which got me sold on the shock #192-36851-A015 (200 x 56/57). Hence, I am moving my doubts to this technical thread.

*Bike info:*

2015 SC Bronson C Build S (magenta and pink) 
*Note:*_ I don't want to buy a newer bike right now, as I am in the process of relocating back to the US and to a new state_. 

Size Large
Fork:160mm Pike with Luftkappe
Rear shock: Monarch RT
on route: Manitou Mara Pro 192-36851-A015

other marginal mods
Linkagedesign and Leverage Ratio
Santa Cruz Official site kinematics-Bronson V1


















*Riding and settings:*

Weight: 170 lbs kitted
200psi rear shock and 88psi front fork (using all travel both F/R except the end 10-15%)
Aggressive riding, not spending too much on the saddle:
 5-10 feet jumps and drops. Trail speed 10-21mph. Avg 10 mph.
Location: At the moment, I am in the UK, which is mostly flat, but I have a bike park in the vicinity of where I live + Wales Bike Park and the rest of Europe. Also, I frequently ride my local single track " my gym track" that has a lot of technical berms, pumping and roots. 

*Doubts:*

Can I make it work while using a 1/2 can, lubing the thing, maxing up (+) chamber with spacers while getting close to the same volume of the smaller can that Hayes offers for $100usd? I am trying to cut corners but will follow recommendations.
Will my bike benefit from installing a counter measure spring? Rock Shox Counter Measure Spring
Should I install offset bushings?
Dougal hardware installation vs OEM hardware?
Which spacers should I use and buy? The manitou one's in hayes, the rockshox bands or the 3D printer one's from CCS86? 
_If CCS86 is still around I would buy them from you, I don't have a printer😭😭😭_

Are all Manitou Mara Pro's in Europe shipped with the King can? 
Bike discounts.de shows pictures of the pro with a slimmer can and the description mentions it is 43mm in diameter. 
They don't have it in stock now, so I couldn't get a direct answer. I am waiting for their response. 


Any help is welcome! I also wouldn't mind paying for service or guidance to set up my shock. My order will not arrive until next month.

—CH

PS: my background is scientific and while I absolutely have no engineering background, I can't get my head around why so many people are following suit with re-installing the can in the freezer kind of thing. There's a particularly important physics equation, *the Hypothetical Ideal Gas. This law applies because air molar mass is known; hence, the law is applied also to calculate density.

PV = nRT (pressure *x *volume = # of moles *x *constant R *x *Temperature). *In essence, pressure is inversely proportional to the volume and equal to the temperature (P = T and P = 1/V.) Yes, for (x) minutes the temperature inside the can negative chamber will be different, thus the pressure will also be different from the ambient pressure. However, thermodynamics will reverse this change back to whatever atmospheric pressure is outside the can (or marginally similar) and to whatever the temperature is of where you are riding. While we are at it, toss in fluid dynamics and think of turbochargers and change of altitudes. Moreover, the can is not double vacuum insulated nor hermetically sealed, so cut this temperature gain and its impact in density to minutes. Since this is a non-equalizing chamber, I get it, you might want to reset the can if you are going to ride in a drastically different location with a different altitude value while remaining at a constant. But in context, if you're going to ride mtb or lift and start at (x) thousands of feet and ride all the way to (x) hundreds of feet, are you going to stop to reset the can in the freezer halfway? If you're going to ride in cold or warm weather at a flat or constant altitude, things get hot to warm or hot to temperate? Thus, all those changes will have incremental or detrimental changes to the performance of the shock. I am all for tweaks, but the freezer thing is just not scientific, empirical sustainable nor attainable. 

Other than that, all of you that have posted in this thread rock🤘🤘!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

You are mistaken on your interpretation of gas law and the freezer can reset. It is valid.

n, R, and V stay the same and fall out, so:

P1/T1 = P2/T2

If your 1's are the freezer air, you have atmospheric pressure and below freezing air.

T2 is operating temp which is significantly higher than freezer temp. Which means you have increased your negative pressure by a factor of T2/T1 (in kelvin)

P2 = P1 * (T2/T1)

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## wutzzz (6 mo ago)

CCS86 said:


> You are mistaken on your interpretation of gas law and the freezer can reset. It is valid.
> 
> n, R, and V *(this is true I agree)* stay the same and fall out, so:
> 
> ...



Yes, I get it, *you're using Gay Lussac's law*. But your statement is focusing as if the temperature inside the can will always remain the same or come back to the same initial T; this cannot stand because it's not a perpetually controlled volume container—meaning the temperature is not kept the same inside of it. It will leak out. Transference of energy will eventually happen by thermodynamics in the same manner that osmosis would occur in a solute with a permeable membrane. Think of rubbing a cold a** beer. Will it stay cold forever after rubbing, after staying out of the freezer unopened? As with a non-controller and non-hermetically sealable container, temperature changes on the outside will exert pressure on the can and the can toward "the outside". This will excite and accelerate the particles which will try to force themselves out toward the area of lower pressure. Unless the pressure outside is higher than inside the can, which can only be achieved perpetually in a controlled manner. For example, like in a perfect vacuum or full vacuum. Hence, why turbo charger applications and intercoolers need to maintain a certain "pressurization." 

P1/T1 = P2/T2 your initial "freezer input" would be held in a controller environment. But the can leaks eventually, also, the metal acts as a conduit for transfer of energy. This will scratch your initial recorded pressure changes at X elevation. So that formula will hold but with a different initial T1 set of values—after temperature dissipation—based on real world settings. You would have to re-record your initial pressure for the formula. 

*Wait, how and when did we measure the initial P1?* *Are we applying the formula theoretically or with measurable variables?*

I can agree with you that the pressure initially will change with the freezer, but it will be totally dependent—after x minutes—to marginal differences between the "outside temperature" and the temperature inside the can matching closely the temperature of the outside (warmer or colder). The former and latter are dependent of the metallurgic properties of the can. How good is the metal for keeping the initial temperature for x time? 

If you were to ride your bicycle inside the freezer all day, then the operating temperature inside the can will maintain the formula based on that initial T. Then the variable of the pressure will change accordingly based on the imposition of temperature changes, friction, force, and temperature absorption/dissipation. But that's not how it works.

*In layman terms:*

If the freezer proposition stand. Then beer will never need to be cold, beer will never get spoiled by changes in temperature, beer will never explode in a freezer and beer will never sweat when kept in the hand at a different atmospheric temperature. If the can were to be reassembled in the freezer in the Artic and the bike was being ridden perpetually in the artic then marginal differences could remain, and your proposition could stand, in theory. 

I am not refuting your statement of the law, but only the imposition of the freezer logic upon the law.

A short layman terms clip:
A video for the freezer logic without thermodynamics

Nonetheless, thank you for your input in the thread.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I think you missed the point about using the freezer, the idea is that the colder air will heat up after a couple minutes and expand, effectively having a bit more pressure in the neg chamber, that is, assuming the air in the can is substantially colder in the first place, which is not a given, since as you said, the container is not sealed in any way. Still, even if it's placebo, people said it works, so why not? Even if it's only a temporary effect, doesn't hurt anything afaik.


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## wutzzz (6 mo ago)

piciu256 said:


> I think you missed the point about using the freezer, the idea is that the colder air will heat up after a couple minutes and expand, effectively having a bit more pressure in the neg chamber, that is, assuming the air in the can is substantially colder in the first place, which is not a given, since as you said, the container is not sealed in any way. Still, even if it's placebo, people said it works, so why not? Even if it's only a temporary effect, doesn't hurt anything afaik.


Hi,
I read it and get it. The reason I contested this is because it can be highlighted as misleading. Since, it has been champion on the thread as accurate. I am not judging who or why someone will decide to still do it. My concern, and later responses to this matter was purely scientifically.

Do let me know if you can help me out with my doubts 👇


*Doubts:*

Can I make it work while using a 1/2 can, lubing the thing, maxing up (+) chamber with spacers while getting close to the same volume of the smaller can that Hayes offers for $100usd? I am trying to cut corners but will follow recommendations.
Will my bike benefit from installing a counter measure spring? Rock Shox Counter Measure Spring
Should I install offset bushings?
Dougal hardware installation vs OEM hardware?
Which spacers should I use and buy? The manitou one's in hayes, the rockshox bands or the 3D printer one's from CCS86? 
_If CCS86 is still around I would buy them from you, I don't have a printer😭😭😭_

Are all Manitou Mara Pro's in Europe shipped with the King can? 
Bike discounts.de shows pictures of the pro with a slimmer can and the description mentions it is 43mm in diameter. 
They don't have it in stock now, so I couldn't get a direct answer. I am waiting for their response.


----------



## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

For someone so familiar with these concepts, I'm surprised you are missing the practical application so completely...




wutzzz said:


> But your statement is focusing as if the temperature inside the can will always remain the same or come back to the same initial T; this cannot stand because it's not a perpetually controlled volume container—meaning the temperature is not kept the same inside of it. It will leak out.



That is the opposite of my statement. If the temperature in the can remained as cold as the freezer, you would get zero gain in negative chamber pressure from this technique. We are relying 100% on the fact that energy will flow* into *the can and raise the pressure. You seem to have completely missed this point.





wutzzz said:


> But the can leaks eventually



So? The seals leak eventually regardless. That is why non-equalizing negative chambers need a can reset periodically. 




wutzzz said:


> *Wait, how and when did we measure the initial P1?* *Are we applying the formula theoretically or with measurable variables?*



Like I said in my last post, P1 is atmospheric pressure.

Let's put some numbers to this:

If you capture 0*F air (255.4*K), then let it warm to 90*F (305.4*K) ambient temp, you get a 1.2 multiplier on your negative chamber pressure. That's a 20% increase in pressure. Got a counterpoint to that? Placebo?


----------



## wutzzz (6 mo ago)

CCS86 said:


> For someone so familiar with these concepts, I'm surprised you are missing the practical application so completely...
> *I will agree to disagree.*
> 
> 
> ...


*Yes, this will be correct for minutes and but no more than minutes to an hour—I will be cautious with elapsed time to give a margin of error. Are you going to reset every hour? If you're going to present this why not give the whole formula to prove your point? Atmospheric pressure is not the same in no 2 points in a graph. How are you measuring at what (x) are you capturing the air? Are you using a thermometer, a barometer, a computer model depicting a virtual atm? 

Let's do a science project. Will you be so kind to add # values to P1,P2,T1,t2?

Lastly, I am not trying to dethrone your argument, I will call it a friendly hole poking. However, it's clear to me that you are not willing to cede any terrain, nor consider for 1 moment the variables that I am presenting while you're constructing your argument based on theory and not empirical data. You're preaching this as bullet proof without presenting all the numbers and information. That's why I highlighted this as misleading. *

*At the end of the day, I think by voicing my opinion I had led stray this thread to, as the British say: throwing sausages down an alley.

I will still appreciate if anybody can help me answer my doubts with this shock and my SC v1 Bronson frame. 

👍







*


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> For someone so familiar with these concepts, I'm surprised you are missing the practical application so completely...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not buying that the freezer trick adds much if anything to the negative chamber pressure. I tried it several times and didn't notice anything. What, Manitou really needs to do is offer an adjustable/or self equalizing negative spring so heavier riders can use them. I can live with the 'dead spot' in the travel. It's a bummer they have the best shock on the market that only works optimally for people that fit within a weight range.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

wutzzz said:


> *Yes, this will be correct for minutes and but no more than minutes to an hour*



Care to elaborate? 

You capture more air mass, due to the increased density. It warms to ambient temp over some period of time, increasing the pressure as it does. Now you have a chamber that has a higher pressure than one with an "ambient capture". Explain what happens over this next magical hour, where you lose the bonus pressure.




wutzzz said:


> *If you're going to present this why not give the whole formula to prove your point? *


Because a "whole formula" just distracts from the point. If you can't see the concept is valid by looking at the data I have already given, you might not have the grasp that you think you do conceptually.



wutzzz said:


> *Atmospheric pressure is not the same in no 2 points in a graph.*


What's your point? I don't know what "graph" you are talking about. If you mean "geographical locations", yes it varies. That changes nothing about this concept.




wutzzz said:


> *How are you measuring at what (x) are you capturing the air?*


You seem very stuck in the granular details that you don't fully understand. No "measurement" is needed. What "x" are you even talking about?




wutzzz said:


> *Let's do a science project. Will you be so kind to add # values to P1,P2,T1,t2?*


Seriously? I already gave you reasonable temps for T1 & T2, and showed that P2 could be 1.2 times greater than P1. P1 is your local atmospheric pressure. It doesn't matter what the final value is, it could easily be 20% larger than if you didn't use the freezer. This still isn't clicking for you?




wutzzz said:


> *
> Lastly, I am not trying to dethrone your argument, I will call it a friendly hole poking. However, it's clear to me that you are not willing to cede any terrain, nor consider for 1 moment the variables that I am presenting while you're constructing your argument based on theory and not empirical data. You're preaching this as bullet proof without presenting all the numbers and information. That's why I highlighted this as misleading.*



I'm all for rigorous debate. But, you haven't "poked" a single hole. You keep bringing up irrelevant information and distracting yourself from the overarching concept here. You are misleading yourself looking for every value to just "plug and chug" a formula.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

DirtDiggler said:


> I'm not buying that the freezer trick adds much if anything to the negative chamber pressure. I tried it several times and didn't notice anything. What, Manitou really needs to do is offer an adjustable/or self equalizing negative spring so heavier riders can use them. I can live with the 'dead spot' in the travel. It's a bummer they have the best shock on the market that only works optimally for people that fit within a weight range.



The beauty of physics is that it exists whether you "buy it" or not.

A self equalizing version would be a nice addition to the line up.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> The beauty of physics is that it exists whether you "buy it" or not.
> 
> A self equalizing version would be a nice addition to the line up.


I don't dispute the logic or science but I wonder if the 'process' of capturing the cold air inside a refrigerator has too many variables to effectively trap it at freezer temp. That said, I guess it can't hurt to try. Subjectively, I noticed zero change after I tried it, but perhaps that's because I was skeptical of it making a difference.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

DirtDiggler said:


> I don't dispute the logic or science but I wonder if the 'process' of capturing the cold air inside a refrigerator has too many variables to effectively trap it at freezer temp. That said, I guess it can't hurt to try. Subjectively, I noticed zero change after I tried it, but perhaps that's because I was skeptical of it making a difference.



Just like anything, there are ways to lose effectiveness and situations where it is less effective.

If your ambient temp is very low, closer to the freezer temp, you get less benefit. 

If you just reach it into the freezer and close it up, it probably wont work that well because all the shock parts are ambient temp and actively heating the air before you capture it. If you leave the can in the freezer for a while first (better still the shock as well), it will work much better. 

Also a deep freezer can be 10-20*F colder than a fridge freezer.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

I feel really lucky being 170lbs with this shock… out of the box recommendations, 145psi with stock spacers. Just added 2 clicks of LSC and the shock is mint. I run it on a Stumpjumper evo just like @Suns_PSD - actually bought his EXT from him before. I agree, this shock feels better! Top end feels great for pedaling but it doesn’t feel like it takes much to get into the travel… like most high volume air shocks the mid stroke leaves maybe a little to be desired but I’d say mid stroke on this shock is still better than Topaz and X2 I’ve ridden on other bikes in the past. I am on the Stumpjumper evo with WRP mullet link, about 19% progression.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

DirtDiggler said:


> It's a bummer they have the best shock on the market that only works optimally for people that fit within a weight range.


The problem with positive/negative air shocks is there is no optimal. Everything is always different. The benefits of trapped air is that bigger riders don't need as much pressure to hit sag as they would with a notched can. The big current problem with bigger riders and big negative is hitting pressure limits.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

SB666 said:


> I feel really lucky being 170lbs with this shock… out of the box recommendations, 145psi with stock spacers. Just added 2 clicks of LSC and the shock is mint. I run it on a Stumpjumper evo just like @Suns_PSD - actually bought his EXT from him before. I agree, this shock feels better! Top end feels great for pedaling but it doesn’t feel like it takes much to get into the travel… like most high volume air shocks the mid stroke leaves maybe a little to be desired but I’d say mid stroke on this shock is still better than Topaz and X2 I’ve ridden on other bikes in the past. I am on the Stumpjumper evo with WRP mullet link, about 19% progression.


At 220# mine took a lot of force to get it moving into the travel after 25-30% sag was set. Because of that the I found the grip to not be that good compared to other shocks. The midstroke felt wallowy which was fun in some instances but not when I had to negotiate sketchy lines. There was something about it I liked, and that was on medium to large hits the shock used more travel and ate it up. I need to loose some weight because I do like the shock - just not at 220#


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Would any of that be resolved with a Low Volume (Standard) Air Can?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

DirtDiggler said:


> At 220# mine took a lot of force to get it moving into the travel after 25-30% sag was set. Because of that the I found the grip to not be that good compared to other shocks. The midstroke felt wallowy which was fun in some instances but not when I had to negotiate sketchy lines. There was something about it I liked, and that was on medium to large hits the shock used more travel and ate it up. I need to loose some weight because I do like the shock - just not at 220#





PHeller said:


> Would any of that be resolved with a Low Volume (Standard) Air Can?


Yes. Lower can volume gives you higher spring rates with less pressure. 

We finally got all our std can and king can part numbers sorted out. It was a mission: Mara Pro & Mara Inline (Metric) - Air Cans - Rear Shock Parts - Manitou | Hayes | Shockcraft


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

DirtDiggler said:


> At 220# mine took a lot of force to get it moving into the travel after 25-30% sag was set. Because of that the I found the grip to not be that good compared to other shocks. The midstroke felt wallowy which was fun in some instances but not when I had to negotiate sketchy lines. There was something about it I liked, and that was on medium to large hits the shock used more travel and ate it up. I need to loose some weight because I do like the shock - just not at 220#


I think running the Mara Pro with that much sag, especially as a heavy rider, is why it felt wallowy.

Forget sag and use Dougal's frequency tuning method to balance it with the fork. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Hootbmx (Feb 20, 2012)

Hello All, I just picked up a brand Canfield Lithium frame that already had this shock and a Mezzer Pro fork. I'm a couple months away from having everything else I need to complete the build. I way 170 pounds and never heard of this shock until I bought my frame. I have a Canfield Balance and Riot but always have had coils on them. First air shock for me in a long time! Any tips or suggestions for setting it up for someone my weight? I live in Utah and ride mostly Wasatch but also get to Moab and Fruita quite often. 

Also, seems like I have heard this air shock is similar to coil in feel, is that true (I really wanted a coil to go on this frame to be honest)? Also seems like the owner reviews are mostly positive and folks love it compared to the competition but the bike company/online mag reviews don't seem to give it as much love for some reason...strange it seems.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

I thought the King Can when stuffed with volume reducers has the same volume as the standard can?


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

CCS86 said:


> I think running the Mara Pro with that much sag, especially as a heavy rider, is why it felt wallowy.
> 
> Forget sag and use Dougal's frequency tuning method to balance it with the fork.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk



Nah, that's just one sag point I tried out of MANY I tried for weeks of experimenting. It was either too hard off the top and lacked grip or too wallowy at lower pressures. In fact it was the only shock I've owned that I could not find a combination that worked decent enough to live with some compromises. That said, I ride mostly aggressive trail so I prefer a very soft initial stroke with a lot of midstoke support. It's my weight that is not compatible with this shock. Again, if Manitou offered a dimpled can for us big boys I would be all over it. I'm huge fan of the engineering and detail just not the air spring choices they made.


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## GatorXman (Jun 23, 2014)

Could you guys point me to a US based tuning shop that could shorten a 216x63 shock for me? Looking to get it down to 212x59 to fit it on my Orbea rise. TIA


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

CCS86 said:


> Just like anything, there are ways to lose effectiveness and situations where it is less effective.
> 
> If your ambient temp is very low, closer to the freezer temp, you get less benefit.
> 
> ...


I've reset my air can a few times. The most effective method for me is to open that shock all the way up on the bench overnight when we have a deep freeze. I close it up on the bike the next morning. 
Have found that closing that can up on a cold morning requires approximately 7psi more air pressure to maintain my preferred sag #. Those extra air molecules in a fixed volume/ closed space adds some negative pressure when it warms up a bit. 
Since it's very hot here, I can do this about 2x/ year. 1 time heading into the cold season, and one time at the tail end of the cold season. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

DirtDiggler said:


> Nah, that's just one sag point I tried out of MANY I tried for weeks of experimenting. It was either too hard off the top and lacked grip or too wallowy at lower pressures. In fact it was the only shock I've owned that I could not find a combination that worked decent enough to live with some compromises. That said, I ride mostly aggressive trail so I prefer a very soft initial stroke with a lot of midstoke support. It's my weight that is not compatible with this shock. Again, if Manitou offered a dimpled can for us big boys I would be all over it. I'm huge fan of the engineering and detail just not the air spring choices they made.


A dimpled air-can won't change the curve. It will only change the transition into it. You most likely need a positive chamber volume reduction to get a steeper spring rate.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

Hootbmx said:


> Hello All, I just picked up a brand Canfield Lithium frame that already had this shock and a Mezzer Pro fork. I'm a couple months away from having everything else I need to complete the build. I way 170 pounds and never heard of this shock until I bought my frame. I have a Canfield Balance and Riot but always have had coils on them. First air shock for me in a long time! Any tips or suggestions for setting it up for someone my weight? I live in Utah and ride mostly Wasatch but also get to Moab and Fruita quite often.
> 
> Also, seems like I have heard this air shock is similar to coil in feel, is that true (I really wanted a coil to go on this frame to be honest)? Also seems like the owner reviews are mostly positive and folks love it compared to the competition but the bike company/online mag reviews don't seem to give it as much love for some reason...strange it seems.


I am same weight as you and went with 145psi with the recommended compression and rebound, then added a couple clicks of LSC. The damper on this shock feels as good to me as the EXT, maybe better... As far as coil like, it is definitely smooth, but I don't know if any air shock can truly match the mid stroke support of coil. We ride the same area/terrain also, I think you will like this shock a lot


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> How hot are you getting a Mara Pro?
> 
> I've been able to get the older inline McLeod hot enough to change damping. That was hot enough you didn't want to touch it. Maybe 50C on a 25C day. Moving to a higher VI oil and different rebound tune cured that.
> I can't get the Mara Pro more than about 10C over ambient. It's got over twice the oil inside and a lot more metal for cooling.


I suppose it was not more then 10c above. The shock did barely have enough rebound damping from cold, so no surprise when it gets warmer. Also I suspect that heated air in negative chamber messed things up as well. This is a really common thing with forks running dual chamber solution (no transfer port). 

I will test for curiosity the new 2023 Super Deluxe, but I am not having any high expectation on that one.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

The shock was returned and refunded BTW.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> I suppose it was not more then 10c above. The shock did barely have enough rebound damping from cold, so no surprise when it gets warmer. Also I suspect that heated air in negative chamber messed things up as well. This is a really common thing with forks running dual chamber solution (no transfer port).
> 
> I will test for curiosity the new 2023 Super Deluxe, but I am not having any high expectation on that one.


Something was wrong with that shock. None of that behaviour is normal. Forks don't suffer from heating at all. It's really hard to get a fork even warm to the touch and that's only damper side. Air side doesn't heat.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Something was wrong with that shock. None of that behaviour is normal. Forks don't suffer from heating at all. It's really hard to get a fork even warm to the touch and that's only damper side. Air side doesn't heat.


I am talking of air chamber that gets hot, and when no transfer port, the negative chamber air pressure will change dramatically. That was also remarkable when the Mara Pro was getting hotter.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> I am talking of air chamber that gets hot, and when no transfer port, the negative chamber air pressure will change dramatically. That was also remarkable when the Mara Pro was getting hotter.


Air chambers don't really get hot. You can grab a shock that's been working hard and the damper body will be warm but the air-sleeve isn't.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

olejpres said:


> I am talking of air chamber that gets hot, and when no transfer port, the negative chamber air pressure will change dramatically. That was also remarkable when the Mara Pro was getting hotter.


You would gain pressure in the main and negative chambers, cancelling each other out. It shouldn't be heating up significantly though. Maybe your main seal was dry. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Bicmtb123 (Sep 26, 2021)

Finally caved in and purchased a Manitou Mara Pro for my Revel Rascal.

Unfortunately, there's oil leak in the compression assembly. Any experience on this certain issue?

Should I disassemble it? Looking at the service guide, there's an o-ring near the flange of the compression assembly.

What a bummer - I was very excited to try it today.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Is it actually pushing oil out of the compression assembly? Mine arrived covered in some oil in the same place and I assumed was left over from assembly. It never leaked any oil after it was setup on the bike.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

SB666 said:


> I am same weight as you and went with 145psi with the recommended compression and rebound, then added a couple clicks of LSC. The damper on this shock feels as good to me as the EXT, maybe better... As far as coil like, it is definitely smooth, but I don't know if any air shock can truly match the mid stroke support of coil. We ride the same area/terrain also, I think you will like this shock a lot


If it is as good as EXT I suppose you have not used it hard enough. The Mara Pro I tried was not even close the control the EXT have been giving. That said, I believe it it is a good air shock, and it would have been really good if it just had a balanced neg/pos air spring. I have tested the new RS Super Deluxe now and that is not bad at all, and it has better compression and rebound circuit then the Mara Pro. The width of adjustment of the RS is much broader, and the rebound can actually control the shock without closing it completely.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

CCS86 said:


> You would gain pressure in the main and negative chambers, cancelling each other out. It shouldn't be heating up significantly though. Maybe your main seal was dry.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


The size difference is not giving any balancing is it?


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Air chambers don't really get hot. You can grab a shock that's been working hard and the damper body will be warm but the air-sleeve isn't.


I am not agreeing in that. The body of the shock is heated and the increased heat on air, for both the shocks and forks are actually a big issue for the performance and change in performance.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Something was wrong with that shock. None of that behaviour is normal. Forks don't suffer from heating at all. It's really hard to get a fork even warm to the touch and that's only damper side. Air side doesn't heat.


If you ask Craig at Avy he is not agreeing at all with you, since I had a fork with separate pos/neg chamber and he told me that it would not work as it should due to the temperature change between the chambers.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> If it is as good as EXT I suppose you have not used it hard enough. The Mara Pro I tried was not even close the control the EXT have been giving. That said, I believe it it is a good air shock, and it would have been really good if it just had a balanced neg/pos air spring. I have tested the new RS Super Deluxe now and that is not bad at all, and it has better compression and rebound circuit then the Mara Pro. The width of adjustment of the RS is much broader, and the rebound can actually control the shock without closing it completely.


I've had an EXT & a Mara Pro on the same bike &: the Mara Pro is better. 
I like heavy damping but the EXT is just too much.
Furthermore, a coil shock just doesn't offer the needed progression for mountain biking, on my bike, even with a Cascade. 
With the correct sag on the EXT I was bottoming so hard on a 6' drop that my ankles were very sore for days, for example. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> I've had an EXT & a Mara Pro on the same bike &: the Mara Pro is better.
> I like heavy damping but the EXT is just too much.
> Furthermore, a coil shock just doesn't offer the needed progression for mountain biking, on my bike, even with a Cascade.
> With the correct sag on the EXT I was bottoming so hard on a 6' drop that my ankles were very sore for days, for example.
> ...


Not sure if your EXT is proper tuned and set up with correct spring rate? If you blow through travel that easy I will suspect you are having a rather difficult frame kinematic. The bike I have now that I have tried Mara Pro on and now the Super Deluxe, is not blowing through travel on the EXT, even then it obviously is made for air shocks.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> If you ask Craig at Avy he is not agreeing at all with you, since I had a fork with separate pos/neg chamber and he told me that it would not work as it should due to the temperature change between the chambers.


Explain how there would be a temp difference between the positive and negative chambers. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Not sure if your EXT is proper tuned and set up with correct spring rate? If you blow through travel that easy I will suspect you are having a rather difficult frame kinematic. The bike I have now that I have tried Mara Pro on and now the Super Deluxe, is not blowing through travel on the EXT, even then it obviously is made for air shocks.


The custom EXT tuning is basically soft- medium- or firm. It's not some Uber custom tune for you and your bike. That would be the Avy Shock. 
Yes, the shock was ordered brand new for my '21 SJEvo and we tried revalves and many different springs, both progressive and straight rate. 
If you are happy with yours, I'm happy for you. But it wasn't for me. 
I did get it working very well in one configuration and for anyone with that bike I'd happily share a working set up. But my Mara Pro was better before even being totally dialed in. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> The custom EXT tuning is basically soft- medium- or firm. It's not some Uber custom tune for you and your bike. That would be the Avy Shock.
> Yes, the shock was ordered brand new for my '21 SJEvo and we tried revalves and many different springs, both progressive and straight rate.
> If you are happy with yours, I'm happy for you. But it wasn't for me.
> I did get it working very well in one configuration and for anyone with that bike I'd happily share a working set up. But my Mara Pro was better before even being totally dialed in.
> ...


You are totally wrong regarding EXt tune. There are a lot more tunes, and ut is basically connected to coil spring weight. These are basic, then it is custom tunes. There are a lot more combinations that are performed by experiences made by the dealers regarding different frames and thongs like Cascade links and so on.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> The custom EXT tuning is basically soft- medium- or firm. It's not some Uber custom tune for you and your bike. That would be the Avy Shock.
> Yes, the shock was ordered brand new for my '21 SJEvo and we tried revalves and many different springs, both progressive and straight rate.
> If you are happy with yours, I'm happy for you. But it wasn't for me.
> I did get it working very well in one configuration and for anyone with that bike I'd happily share a working set up. But my Mara Pro was better before even being totally dialed in.
> ...


That said, I basically can confirm that the Spez is not an easy frame to tune, even then the Cascade does it not easier. So I will not deny that.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am not agreeing in that. The body of the shock is heated and the increased heat on air, for both the shocks and forks are actually a big issue for the performance and change in performance.


It is extremely difficult to heat a piggy back air-shock. To even gain 20C in the damper over ambient is very hard. Air-cans run basically at ambient I'm finding your claims a little ridiculous.



Rumblefish2010 said:


> If you ask Craig at Avy he is not agreeing at all with you, since I had a fork with separate pos/neg chamber and he told me that it would not work as it should due to the temperature change between the chambers.


Pretty sure you've lost the whole story in translation here. I guarantee Craig doesn't own or ride a Mara Pro, I've got almost four years on these shocks including lots of bike-park. Air-chambers do not heat beyond the adiabatic expansion/contraction which is part of their design and tuning.



Rumblefish2010 said:


> Not sure if your EXT is proper tuned and set up with correct spring rate? If you blow through travel that easy I will suspect you are having a rather difficult frame kinematic. The bike I have now that I have tried Mara Pro on and now the Super Deluxe, is not blowing through travel on the EXT, even then it obviously is made for air shocks.


If you want to make your Mara Pro ride like an EXT, just flip it to work mode. It gives an extremely firm linear stack with very similar damping forces and performance to an EXT.
EXT has roughly twice the compression damping of a Mara Pro in Party mode. This is why they're massively overdamped for almost all riders.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Dougal said:


> It is extremely difficult to heat a piggy back air-shock. To even gain 20C in the damper over ambient is very hard. Air-cans run basically at ambient I'm finding your claims a little ridiculous.


That's weird. The damper body and the reservoir will get warm to the touch on my Super Deluxe after a mellow 3-4 minute downhill. There is a 2 minute track near me with tons of roots, rocks, and lots of little drops. After a run there, the damper body is almost uncomfortable to touch. I thought something was off with my shock, but my friend has the same bike with the same shock and his gets just as warm as well.
Or maybe both our shocks are defective?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

HollyBoni said:


> That's weird. The damper body and the reservoir will get warm to the touch on my Super Deluxe after a mellow 3-4 minute downhill. There is a 2 minute track near me with tons of roots, rocks, and lots of little drops. After a run there, the damper body is almost uncomfortable to touch. I thought something was off with my shock, but my friend has the same bike with the same shock and his gets just as warm as well.
> Or maybe both our shocks are defective?


Warm to the touch is like 30C. So hot you don't want to touch it is like 50C.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> It is extremely difficult to heat a piggy back air-shock. To even gain 20C in the damper over ambient is very hard. Air-cans run basically at ambient I'm finding your claims a little ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What Craig said was that temperature difference change behaviour. Inconsistency in behaviour due to temp difference is the problem.
We are not talking of temperatures, we are talking og temperature differences, that occurs differently in small vs bigger air Chambers. In combination of size and pressure, two totally different like pos/neg Chambers will not work.

EXT tunes cannot be put into general overall group. Since it is actually possible to tune, they are the most universal shocks that exist. In their nature (being mono tube) they are kind of progressive and can support demanding frame kinematics. Like Mara Pro that is pretty supportive in its behavior, but does not have the hydraulic control that I wanted. In the end it is more cost effective to get EXT tuned then a Mara Pro, for me.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Warm to the touch is like 30C. So hot you don't want to touch it is like 50C.


Same with the Super Deluxe 2023 I am using now, it is super hot on the shaft, but not on the air can. This is of course giving large temperature differences. Since it is a transfer port it does not do any pressure differences.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

olejpres said:


> That said, I basically can confirm that the Spez is not an easy frame to tune, even then the Cascade does it not easier. So I will not deny that.


The LR is a dead straight line making HL the easiest and most consistent suspension design.
All these VPPs & multi-links are the ones that are problematic to tune. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> What Craig said was that temperature difference change behaviour. Inconsistency in behaviour due to temp difference is the problem.
> We are not talking of temperatures, we are talking og temperature differences, that occurs differently in small vs bigger air Chambers. In combination of size and pressure, two totally different like pos/neg Chambers will not work.
> 
> EXT tunes cannot be put into general overall group. Since it is actually possible to tune, they are the most universal shocks that exist. In their nature (being mono tube) they are kind of progressive and can support demanding frame kinematics. Like Mara Pro that is pretty supportive in its behavior, but does not have the hydraulic control that I wanted. In the end it is more cost effective to get EXT tuned then a Mara Pro, for me.





Rumblefish2010 said:


> Same with the Super Deluxe 2023 I am using now, it is super hot on the shaft, but not on the air can. This is of course giving large temperature differences. Since it is a transfer port it does not do any pressure differences.


It's maths time.

Let us say it's a 20C summer day. You manage to get the damper body to 50C (+30C on ambient) and the air-can to 30C (+10C on ambient). The positive air pressure is going to closely follow the air-can external (due to ratio of surface areas), the negative air pressure is going to be a little more exposed to damper temperature, but still mostly air-can external.
So we might have 35C in the postive and 40C in the negative.

Absolute pressure changes follow absolute temperature changes (because volume is fixed). We're expecting relative changes of 15 and 20C which are absolute changes of 5 and 7% respectively.

If you've got equalised chambers that'll be an even 5% increase instead of 5% in positive and 7% in negative.

Anyone who tells you they can feel a 2% change is making **** up.

Coilover shocks are pistons and shims in tubes. You can make any of them do whatever you want as long as you've got a set of drills and enough shims. The EXT's have an extremely narrow adjuster range that makes them less universal. They literally have to be shimmed to match your spring-rate because the window is that narrow. Change it more than one spring rate and you're going to run out of rebound range.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> It's maths time.
> 
> Let us say it's a 20C summer day. You manage to get the damper body to 50C (+30C on ambient) and the air-can to 30C (+10C on ambient). The positive air pressure is going to closely follow the air-can external (due to ratio of surface areas), the negative air pressure is going to be a little more exposed to damper temperature, but still mostly air-can external.
> So we might have 35C in the postive and 40C in the negative.
> ...


The low chamber will due to high pressure get very different pressure Craig explained. He did not recommend any use of separate neg/pos chamber. Suppose this will be equal or worse with a small negative chamber in a shock?

EXT Storia shocks are of course custom tuned to each rider/frame. But you are not right in that the valve adjuster range is narrow. Actually it is a proper valve adjuster with a proper shim stack and coil that when aplied force to it (like clicks) it really does work on the oil, opposed to mickey mouse valves on OEM products. What you are saying gets so totally wrong, because the valve on an EXT with a "middle in the road" tune would actually have a lot broader adjuster range then any other shock due to its ability to put force on the hydraulic fluid.


----------



## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

olejpres said:


> The low chamber will due to high pressure get very different pressure Craig explained. He did not recommend any use of separate neg/pos chamber. Suppose this will be equal or worse with a small negative chamber in a shock?
> .



What are you talking about? Every air sprung shock and fork have a "separate neg/pos chamber".

And no, the smaller volume of a negative chamber won't exaggerate any pressure change from temperature. You get a percentage gain on pressure based on the temp change on both chambers. Nothing becomes "unbalanced".

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> The low chamber will due to high pressure get very different pressure Craig explained. He did not recommend any use of separate neg/pos chamber. Suppose this will be equal or worse with a small negative chamber in a shock?


Chamber size and pressure do not change the pressure/volume/temperature relationships.
You've got this totally wrong. 



olejpres said:


> EXT Storia shocks are of course custom tuned to each rider/frame. But you are not right in that the valve adjuster range is narrow. Actually it is a proper valve adjuster with a proper shim stack and coil that when aplied force to it (like clicks) it really does work on the oil, opposed to mickey mouse valves on OEM products. What you are saying gets so totally wrong, because the valve on an EXT with a "middle in the road" tune would actually have a lot broader adjuster range then any other shock due to its ability to put force on the hydraulic fluid.


You've got that totally wrong too. Here's a dyno plot. The adjuster ranges are extremely small. Rebound is a pie-slice adjuster which doesn't have the resolution or range of a needle. See the yellow plot, that's rebound 6 clicks from closed and it's basically fully open.










Here is a RS Super Deluxe RCT Coil (Ultimate) for comparison. Look at the rebound range.


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Chamber size and pressure do not change the pressure/volume/temperature relationships.
> You've got this totally wrong.
> 
> 
> ...


I am not sure what you have tested there, but it is for sure not valid. I am actually riding a Storia with 700lb spring, and compares it to mara pro, super deluxe and mara inline. I know which of them that does actually control. So what your dyno shows does not prove anything. I can tell you a secret, that the compression valve is a major part of it. So do the dyno test again with the shocks you have there closed and you will see it.

Pressure in separate pos/neg with fixed pressure or fixed spring rates for that matter does not work when it is outside it's working range. So for an average weight person the mara pro might be okay, it will change behaviour because of temp changes though.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

@olejpres 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> I am not sure what you have tested there, but it is for sure not valid. I am actually riding a Storia with 700lb spring, and compares it to mara pro, super deluxe and mara inline. I know which of them that does actually control. So what your dyno shows does not prove anything. I can tell you a secret, that the compression valve is a major part of it. So do the dyno test again with the shocks you have there closed and you will see it.
> 
> Pressure in separate pos/neg with fixed pressure or fixed spring rates for that matter does not work when it is outside it's working range. So for an average weight person the mara pro might be okay, it will change behaviour because of temp changes though.


No.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> No.


Funny you guys put yourself on top of suspension knowledge.

Real life experience seems not be valid with you guys.

The truth is that some of you need to spend most of your waking time to tell other that Manitou products are the best, and all other are not.
How do you get time for biking?

I will do Manitou a favor and report these with sending them an email about what is going on here.

Mind all of you readers out there, when you are reading these threads, it is corrupted by overwhelming sales promotion!
Make up your own mind and test the products, return it if it is not working like it should.
I was reading this thread and was curious about the Mara Pro, but was afraid of the challenges about fixed neg chamber pressure. I was right in my assumption. If you buy a Mara Pro and send it for tuning, like I am obviously need to do, it will be a major part of cost of a custom EXT Storia.

Mara Pro is perhaps a really good shock for the riders that are in the right weight group, and I admit it is a really sweet shock.

All in all Manitou products are good products for the money, but please do not get overwhelmed by these thread trolls that actually do the product a disfavour.
Manitou products is not best in class overall like they say, and some of it you perhaps need to test before you decide.


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I will do Manitou a favor and report these with sending them an email about what is going on here.


What is going on here?


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

HollyBoni said:


> What is going on here?


Just want to tell what is going on with this trolling by Dougal, so Manitou does know they have an representative that is putting their products in a bad light. The way it get`s trolled by Dougal and other hanging on to him, it actually is really bad for the reputation of Manitou.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

HollyBoni said:


> What is going on here?


It's just Rumblefish2010 being Rumblefish2010.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Velodonata said:


> It's just Rumblefish2010 being Rumblefish2010.


Just sent an email to Manitou so they know about this going on here and that some in this forums are making conspiracy theories and echo chamber putting their products into a bad light.

If you track the threads on the last members just now it is no surprise to see what it is all about. Also look for how other products get`s commented?


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Just sent an email to Manitou so they know about this going on here and that some in this forums are making conspiracy theories and echo chamber putting their products into a bad light.


So you're just going to tease us like that and not share the text of your email? I'm sure many of us here could use a good chuckle to start the week.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Velodonata said:


> So you're just going to tease us like that and not share the text of your email? I'm sure many of us here could use a good chuckle to start the week.


Sent this:
Hi, I just want to inform you that your products get`s poor promotion by your sales representative. The way he promotes Manitou and other Hayes Products, in such an intensive way, I believe will make consumers wonder why it needs to be so much promotion towards Manitou/Hayes? I am pointing at threads in MTBR forums containing Manitou products, as well as other threads for competing products/brands, that get`s trolled. Also the way this puts other products in the shadow of Manitou/Hayes makes people think that you need to tell a lot to sell the products. The products should sell for itself and it will do, but in the way it get`s represented it is opposite. Just wanted to report it since I think it does put Manitou in a bad perspective by this.

Thanks!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

KarenFish2010 to the rescue! 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

There is clear bias towards Manitou products by the fan boys here, but what do you expect on a "Manitou Mara Pro" thread? I tried the Mara Pro and couldn't make the air spring work for my weight, moved on and sold it. IMO, it's a 2022 design with 2006 air spring technology. However, I am glad Dougal, CCS86 and others were available for setup advice when I was trying every combination to make it work for my weight. No need to go full Karen on them....but it is kind of funny ; )


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

DirtDiggler said:


> There is clear bias towards Manitou products by the fan boys here, but what do you expect on a "Manitou Mara Pro" thread? I tried the Mara Pro and couldn't make the air spring work for my weight, moved on and sold it. IMO, it's a 2022 design with 2006 air spring technology. However, I am glad Dougal, CCS86 and others were available for setup advice when I was trying every combination to make it work for my weight. No need to go full Karen on them....but it is kind of funny ; )


Totally positive about set up tip and so on, but when it get so "colored" like it is sometimes, the underlying truth is not told. The truth is like you say about the Mara Pro, and it have been pointed out in reviewes. Even then, these thread trolls have found out that they are wrong? Not good and useless consumer feedback. 

It is consumer feed back like yours I need, not a biased dealer or fan boy that are not giving me the true feedback I need. 

Based on all stigma I saw in this thread I tried and it did not work. I really wanted it to work since I like Manitou and some of their products.

The reason I did what I did is to help Manitou, not to Karen..


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Use whatever shock you want. 

I've used Fox, RS, EXT, Avy & Manitou. 

When I raced motorcycles I always utilized modified or aftermarket suspension components and had a good idea of what I like. 

When I bought my Manitou stuff I didn't have any huge expectations but the parts blew me away, plain & simple. If they didn't, I'd say so. 

I very well might try the new EXT air shock. The only thing I could see improving is just a hair more midrange pedaling platform. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## ToniT (Jun 1, 2018)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Funny you guys put yourself on top of suspension knowledge.
> 
> Real life experience seems not be valid with you guys.


I usually avoid other peoples "real life experience" because it's subjective and quite often has placebo.
You are like those audiophiles who buy $20k audio cables and can hear a difference - of course they won't do blind tests.

I'm always amazed at peoples reaction when actual data which was measured is presented to them and blowing their bubble.

When it comes to suspension use what works for YOU and for what YOU ride. If you want to delve deeper then you have to take measurements/telemetry.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

ToniT said:


> I usually avoid other peoples "real life experience" because it's subjective and quite often has placebo.
> You are like those audiophiles who buy $20k audio cables and can hear a difference - of course they won't do blind tests.
> 
> I'm always amazed at peoples reaction when actual data which was measured is presented to them and blowing their bubble.
> ...


Nicely said. 

It’s tough for me to read when someone asks for advice, receives answer, doesn’t like it and proceed to accuse the one who tried to help him.

Like ok, there is a bit of a bias toward Manitou, that’s what you get when there are people satisfied with the products, but the information provided was correct and truthful. 
Sometimes taking the advice you asked for and eating some humble pie is the best thing to do, even if it doesn’t fit your present biases. Hey we are human, some of the biases we have are wrong(most), but when presented with data we should update them to more closely reflect reality.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

ToniT said:


> I usually avoid other peoples "real life experience" because it's subjective and quite often has placebo.
> You are like those audiophiles who buy $20k audio cables and can hear a difference - of course they won't do blind tests.
> 
> I'm always amazed at peoples reaction when actual data which was measured is presented to them and blowing their bubble.
> ...


Yeah I agree, but consumer curiosity make us choose based on these statements, or it get you at least to take a decision anyway.
And why are we having these forums anyway? Is it not consumer experience we want to hear, not the first "taste" but the honest truth after using it?
If me and you are not getting the Mara Pro to work, it should be heard and respected, not undermined by someone that use their professionality to convince otherwise?
It would have been totally fine if it was transparent and honest, but it is so subjective and biased as it can get.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

akantus178 said:


> Nicely said.
> 
> It’s tough for me to read when someone asks for advice, receives answer, doesn’t like it and proceed to accuse the one who tried to help him.
> 
> ...


Do you really think it is okay, when reviews that point out that there is trouble with the pos/neg air spring on the Mara Pro gets undermined by professional that sells Manitou?
It is actually a big problem, it will not work for specific groups of riders (light riders or heavy riders or certain kind of frames).


----------



## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

I've always got great advise from Dougal. be it manitou or non manitou related.
really appreciate the time he takes to help others on this forum.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Funny you guys put yourself on top of suspension knowledge.
> 
> Real life experience seems not be valid with you guys.
> 
> ...





Rumblefish2010 said:


> Just want to tell what is going on with this trolling by Dougal, so Manitou does know they have an representative that is putting their products in a bad light. The way it get`s trolled by Dougal and other hanging on to him, it actually is really bad for the reputation of Manitou.





Rumblefish2010 said:


> Just sent an email to Manitou so they know about this going on here and that some in this forums are making conspiracy theories and echo chamber putting their products into a bad light.
> 
> If you track the threads on the last members just now it is no surprise to see what it is all about. Also look for how other products get`s commented?


Post above @Rumblefish2010 sends an email to Manitou telling them I'm using facts and dyno plots to hurt his feelings.



Rumblefish2010 said:


> Sent this:
> Hi, I just want to inform you that your products get`s poor promotion by your sales representative. The way he promotes Manitou and other Hayes Products, in such an intensive way, I believe will make consumers wonder why it needs to be so much promotion towards Manitou/Hayes? I am pointing at threads in MTBR forums containing Manitou products, as well as other threads for competing products/brands, that get`s trolled. Also the way this puts other products in the shadow of Manitou/Hayes makes people think that you need to tell a lot to sell the products. The products should sell for itself and it will do, but in the way it get`s represented it is opposite. Just wanted to report it since I think it does put Manitou in a bad perspective by this.
> 
> Thanks!





olejpres said:


> Totally positive about set up tip and so on, but when it get so "colored" like it is sometimes, the underlying truth is not told. The truth is like you say about the Mara Pro, and it have been pointed out in reviewes. Even then, these thread trolls have found out that they are wrong? Not good and useless consumer feedback.
> 
> It is consumer feed back like yours I need, not a biased dealer or fan boy that are not giving me the true feedback I need.
> 
> ...


Post above by @olejpres talking in first person about him contacting Manitou. Hmmm.


Rumblefish2010 said:


> Yeah I agree, but consumer curiosity make us choose based on these statements, or it get you at least to take a decision anyway.
> And why are we having these forums anyway? Is it not consumer experience we want to hear, not the first "taste" but the honest truth after using it?
> If me and you are not getting the Mara Pro to work, it should be heard and respected, not undermined by someone that use their professionality to convince otherwise?
> It would have been totally fine if it was transparent and honest, but it is so subjective and biased as it can get.





Rumblefish2010 said:


> Do you really think it is okay, when reviews that point out that there is trouble with the pos/neg air spring on the Mara Pro gets undermined by professional that sells Manitou?
> It is actually a big problem, it will not work for specific groups of riders (light riders or heavy riders or certain kind of frames).


Hey @Rumblefish2010 it looks like you forgot to switch accounts and accidentally replied as @olejpres

Which makes perfect sense as you're both parroting the same bro-physics and outraged by facts and dyno plots you can't understand.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Bwahahaha, busted. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Post above @Rumblefish2010 sends an email to Manitou telling them I'm using facts and dyno plots to hurt his feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shows perfectly what you are all about. 
You do not Hurt any feeling. You just show how obsessed You are to prove that you are right and other not. By coincident in favor of what products.

I am perfectly clear what you try to prove by dyno plots, what you say does not apply for real life and use. It is like shoe size 11 does not fit someone needing 7.

Why in the world approach it like that?
I think you got to it because I mentioned that with my alternatives, coincidently EXT, RS and Manito
I found EXT to work better.

Then the attacks to knock the fact down that someone actually should go in other direction then Manitou.

If you where honest you would tell the fact that Mara Pro might do not fit heavy rider like me, instead you avoid it by attacking with dyno plots?

Please dear consumers, read Manitou Mara Pro Shock | Blister on Mara Pro. They have explained why it does not work.
Ask the pro's here to explain you. If you hear otherwise it is false.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Oh man this stinks even more.

Go look at @olejpres profile and his only posts on MTBR have been here on the Mara Pro thread pretending to have problems and pimping EXT: olejpres

@Rumblefish2010 you smell really bad. You created this profile just to do a fabricated take-down on Manitou and pimp EXT?


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Ahh the drama!


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

olejpres said:


> attacking with dyno plots






Head back to your safe-space KarenFish2010... The internet is not going to be a fun place for you. 


Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Oh man this stinks even more.
> 
> Go look at @olejpres profile and his only posts on MTBR have been here on the Mara Pro thread pretending to have problems and pimping EXT: olejpres
> 
> @Rumblefish2010 you smell really bad. You created this profile just to do a fabricated take-down on Manitou and pimp EXT?


Yeah final dirt showelling going on....
What a stinky way......


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

CCS86 said:


> Head back to your safe-space KarenFish2010... The internet is not going to be a fun place for you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


And another one desperately dirt throwing....
Just stick your heads together.....


----------



## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

olejpres said:


> Totally positive about set up tip and so on, but when it get so "colored" like it is sometimes, the underlying truth is not told. The truth is like you say about the Mara Pro, and it have been pointed out in reviewes. Even then, these thread trolls have found out that they are wrong? Not good and useless consumer feedback.
> 
> It is consumer feed back like yours I need, not a biased dealer or fan boy that are not giving me the true feedback I need.
> 
> ...


I have Not Bern her For too Long.

You should send IT to DZ Suspension Germany.
He modified the Mara pro Air spring so that IT gets a selfbalancing negative Air chamber by adding the Ports For the Air.

So the shock gets even more supportive and sensitive while being easier adjustable for your weight.

Only Sold IT as IT went away With another frame. Die to the worlds Delivery Problems I moved to Coil,but If I would Go Back to Air, IT would be a DZ Pimped Mara pro


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)




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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Could not agree more with Blister, but what a modest way to tell it is not working:
"*Bottom Line*
The Manitou Mara Pro is an otherwise promising rear shock that just features an unconventional air-spring layout that limits the ability to eke significant midstroke support out of it without compromising small-bump compliance, especially for riders requiring higher air pressure settings. The Mara Pro features an especially good climb mode and a highly adjustable and effective damper, wrapped up in an easily serviceable package, but the air spring shortcomings hamper it significantly."


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

bansaiman said:


> I have Not Bern her For too Long.
> 
> You should send IT to DZ Suspension Germany.
> He modified the Mara pro Air spring so that IT gets a selfbalancing negative Air chamber by adding the Ports For the Air.
> ...


Why spending all that money? But the only way to fix it yes.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> Could not agree more with Blister, but what a modest way to tell it is not working:
> "*Bottom Line*
> The Manitou Mara Pro is an otherwise promising rear shock that just features an unconventional air-spring layout that limits the ability to eke significant midstroke support out of it without compromising small-bump compliance, especially for riders requiring higher air pressure settings. The Mara Pro features an especially good climb mode and a highly adjustable and effective damper, wrapped up in an easily serviceable package, but the air spring shortcomings hamper it significantly."


Still pretending to not be @Rumblefish2010 huh?

The blisterreview is a good neutral one. I recommend people read it.


----------



## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Funny you guys put yourself on top of suspension knowledge.
> 
> Real life experience seems not be valid with you guys.
> 
> ...


Manitou is a good Basis to Go from.

Give the mezzer pro brunishing of the bushings and and ootimised shim Tuning and IT competes With an Era, I Had both, and is even more sensitive,still costing a Bit more than half of the Era. Besides IT IS stiffer and Lighter.

mara pro, Air can Mod and shim tune If needed. Best Air shock I could use


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## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

bansaiman said:


> Manitou is a good Basis to Go from.
> 
> Give the mezzer pro brunishing of the bushings and and ootimised shim Tuning and IT competes With an Era, I Had both, and is even more sensitive,still costing a Bit more than half of the Era. Besides IT IS stiffer and Lighter.
> 
> mara pro, Air can Mod and shim tune If needed. Best Air shock I could use


Will not buy any Manitou or Hayes product or recommend to anyone, due to representives of the brand here. I do not doubt your experience though. There are still a lot of good and cheap products to chose from, and I do not mean EXT only. I am using other brands of forks myself like Ohlins and RS Zeb w/ Vorsprung Secus and Fast SC cartridge.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

olejpres said:


> Will not buy any Manitou or Hayes product or recommend to anyone, due to representives of the brand here. I do not doubt your experience though. There are still a lot of good and cheap products to chose from, and I do not mean EXT only. I am using other brands of forks myself like Ohlins and RS Zeb w/ Vorsprung Secus and Fast SC cartridge.


Wait, who FROM Hayes is representing the brand here?


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

olejpres said:


> Will not buy any Manitou or Hayes product or recommend to anyone, due to representives of the brand here. I do not doubt your experience though. There are still a lot of good and cheap products to chose from, and I do not mean EXT only. I am using other brands of forks myself like Ohlins and RS Zeb w/ Vorsprung Secus and Fast SC cartridge.


Dude, I hear you. I feel the same way about EXT because of that Rumblefish2010 guy that represents for them. They must be junk if they have a loon like that pimping for them.


----------



## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> I have Not Bern her For too Long.
> 
> You should send IT to DZ Suspension Germany.
> He modified the Mara pro Air spring so that IT gets a selfbalancing negative Air chamber by adding the Ports For the Air.
> ...





olejpres said:


> Why spending all that money? But the only way to fix it yes.





bansaiman said:


> I have Not Bern her For too Long.
> 
> You should send IT to DZ Suspension Germany.
> He modified the Mara pro Air spring so that IT gets a selfbalancing negative Air chamber by adding the Ports For the Air.
> ...


This sounds very interesting. Any idea on price? I think someone did similar a while back on this thread.


----------



## olejpres (Dec 20, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Oh man this stinks even more.
> 
> Go look at @olejpres profile and his only posts on MTBR have been here on the Mara Pro thread pretending to have problems and pimping EXT: olejpres
> 
> @Rumblefish2010 you smell really bad. You created this profile just to do a fabricated take-down on Manitou and pimp EXT?


Is this the way you have to go to defend?
Why are you not telling me when asking here in thread, that it is a compromised air spring design in the Mara Pro? I think this tell actually how it is, so bring it on.Instead you are blackmailing me and EXT products.
Come on and show more of this side of you, so we can really see how poor it can be. How you really promote Manitou.

Only honest Answer you should give as a pro you pretend to be, should be that you need to modify the air spring and tune it to get Mara Pro to work.


----------



## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

ToniT said:


> I usually avoid other peoples "real life experience" because it's subjective and quite often has placebo.
> You are like those audiophiles who buy $20k audio cables and can hear a difference - of course they won't do blind tests.
> 
> I'm always amazed at peoples reaction when actual data which was measured is presented to them and blowing their bubble.
> ...


To me the best thing that happened in audio, was audio science review. Real measurements with correlations to what is perceived. I am waiting for mountain bike science review with real dyno data on all products.


----------



## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

olejpres said:


> Shows perfectly what you are all about.
> You do not Hurt any feeling. You just show how obsessed You are to prove that you are right and other not. By coincident in favor of what products.
> 
> I am perfectly clear what you try to prove by dyno plots, what you say does not apply for real life and use. It is like shoe size 11 does not fit someone needing 7.
> ...


Boy are you going to be upset when you find out that Dougal also sells and tunes Fox and Rockshox.


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

olejpres said:


> Is this the way you have to go to defend?
> Why are you not telling me when asking here in thread, that it is a compromised air spring design in the Mara Pro? I think this tell actually how it is, so bring it on.Instead you are blackmailing me and EXT products.
> Come on and show more of this side of you, so we can really see how poor it can be. How you really promote Manitou.
> 
> Only honest Answer you should give as a pro you pretend to be, should be that you need to modify the air spring and tune it to get Mara Pro to work.


Dude, you're attacking a guy about how he "represents" Manitou and what kind of arguments he makes, while you have dual accounts and all you do on MTBR is post in this thread and repeat your negative experience with the Mara Pro.
How do you not see just how absolutely ridiculous that is?


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

HollyBoni said:


> Dude, you're attacking a guy about how he "represents" Manitou and what kind of arguments he makes, while you have dual accounts and all you do on MTBR is post in this thread and repeat your negative experience with the Mara Pro.
> How do you not see just how absolutely ridiculous that is?


I am not sure what dual accounts have to do? Is that disregarding what I am saying somehow? I have no intention to mislead or something with having two accounts. I give a **** about my accounts and what I say with one or both of them I can stand for.

What I mean is what I mean with both accounts and that is the misleading information or lack of important information that we do not get here.
If you are professional you should regardless brand, be honest and tell about faults. 

To me it is about if someone are so pretentious about their profession and should be objective about their answers they cannot avoid these by start pissing on other.


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am not sure what dual accounts have to do? *Is that disregarding what I am saying somehow?*


Yep, kind of. Creating another account, and pretending to be other people so some random product gets more bad press on a forum is not something that normal people do. Personally I take the word of someone who does stuff like that with a grain of salt, and I don't think I'd trust their experience with a product.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

HollyBoni said:


> Yep, kind of. Creating another account, and pretending to be other people so some random product gets more bad press on a forum is not something that normal people do. Personally I take the word of someone who does stuff like that with a grain of salt, and I don't think I trust their experience with a product.


I understand it is confusing, but it is not at all by intention or to mislead. What I say with both accounts is totally same.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olejpres said:


> Is this the way you have to go to defend?
> Why are you not telling me when asking here in thread, that it is a compromised air spring design in the Mara Pro? I think this tell actually how it is, so bring it on.Instead you are blackmailing me and EXT products.
> Come on and show more of this side of you, so we can really see how poor it can be. How you really promote Manitou.
> 
> Only honest Answer you should give as a pro you pretend to be, should be that you need to modify the air spring and tune it to get Mara Pro to work.





Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am not sure what dual accounts have to do? Is that disregarding what I am saying somehow? I have no intention to mislead or something with having two accounts. I give a **** about my accounts and what I say with one or both of them I can stand for.
> 
> What I mean is what I mean with both accounts and that is the misleading information or lack of important information that we do not get here.
> If you are professional you should regardless brand, be honest and tell about faults.
> ...





Rumblefish2010 said:


> I understand it is confusing, but it is not at all by intention or to mislead. What I say with both accounts is totally same.


Just quoting the above for prosperity incase it's deleted or edited in shame.

At this point in time I'd like to see some evidence that Rumblefish/oeljpres even owned and rode a Mara Pro. Because the claims made violate the laws of physics and I can't imagine such an EXT fan-boi even buying another brand.
Perhaps some photos and serial numbers?


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Just quoting the above for prosperity incase it's deleted or edited in shame.
> 
> At this point in time I'd like to see some evidence that Rumblefish/oeljpres even owned and rode a Mara Pro. Because the claims made violate the laws of physics and I can't imagine such an EXT fan-boi even buying another brand.
> Perhaps some photos and serial numbers?


Another distraction coming on. Could you please keep focus on what is the issue here?
Anyway this is from the vendor:
Dear Mr. ******

your order has been dispatched. Important: The tracking number will be sent to you tomorrow morning in a separate mail.

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Once the parcel is sent you will get a separate email which includes your tracking link
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Sent orders
30.06.2022 15:21
1 Manitou Mara Pro Trunnion rear shock 185x55mm


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Could we get established the fact that heavy riders (and maybe lighter riders as well as difficult frame kinematics) will have trouble with Mara Pro air spring?
Instead of distracting with dual accounts, EXT fan boi, or whatsoever?

So including VAT 531 Euros for Mara Pro. Shipping back to Germany as suggested for tuning and do an air spring upgrade for a balanced one, and shipping back to Norway, is probably another 300-400 Euros??


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## The Setlaz (Sep 23, 2018)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Could we get established the fact that heavy riders (and maybe lighter riders as well as difficult frame kinematics) will have trouble with Mara Pro air spring?


Just as much as we could establish the fact that light riders (and maybe heavier rider as well as difficult frame kinematics) will have trouble with the EXT Storia compression/rebound adjustment range?
Instead of criticizing Manitou or whatsoever?

I dunno... Just sayin' 🤷‍♂️


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

The Setlaz said:


> Just as much as we could establish the fact that light riders (and maybe heavier rider as well as difficult frame kinematics) will have trouble with the EXT Storia compression/rebound adjustment range?
> Instead of criticizing Manitou or whatsoever?
> 
> I dunno... Just sayin' 🤷‍♂️


Nope, that has nothing to do with it, since Manitou have chosen the approach to design an air spring with fixed neg air chamber. Read fixed! EXT Storia is custom tuned and will work for the rider/frame it is opposed to work for. It is like a custom made suit, and it is like saying that a big guy cannot use XS size.....Manitou Mara Pro has a design fault, at least they should have narrowed the window where the fixed negative pressure will work. Instead here in this thread it is hidden and the al mighty pro here is distracting difficult questions with dirt throwing. That is not respectable and despite all kind of pissing on me, I will not accept.

PS! I do not mind disrespect for EXT, and that is not the provoking here, it is more the way the lack of answer and the distracting answer instead of the truth.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm not that large of a guy at 191#s but on an HL bike, with a Cascade link which I found necessary, I was at the very top range of available springs. 

I was somewhere between 600-650#, but could not locate a 625# spring. 

The adjustable rate coil springs are highly progressive ime. When I tried an adjustable rate spring with the Cascade it was a wall of progression. 

The nicest set up I managed on the EXT was the stock link ('21 SJ Evo), a revalved EXT with a firmed up midrange valving stack, and an adjustable rate spring set to 590#s which was highly progressive on its own. This set up really worked quite well, pedaled amazing, although it wasn't very plush and also struggled on the big drops. I wish I would have tested it at the bike park. 

That said, the stock DPX2 with the Cascade was better right off the bat, and the Mara Pro better still. 

I'm glad we can all find something we like. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

[QUOTE
I was somewhere between 600-650#, but could not locate a 625# spring.

The adjustable rate coil springs are highly progressive ime. When I tried an adjustable rate spring with the Cascade it was a wall of progression.

The nicest set up I managed on the EXT was the stock link ('21 SJ Evo), a revalved EXT with a firmed up midrange valving stack, and an adjustable rate spring set to 590#s which was highly progressive on its own. This set up really worked quite well, pedaled amazing, although it wasn't very plush and also struggled on the big drops. I wish I would have tested it at the bike park.

That said, the stock DPX2 with the Cascade was better right off the bat, and the Mara Pro better still.

I'm glad we can all find something we like.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk
[/QUOTE]

The frame you have is probably much more suited for an air shock, like mine. It works with higher spring rates, but it will not be perfect with coil anyway. The RS Super Deluxe is working very good now on my frame. Good control but not as good as the EXT. The Mara Pro could be very good if it have been a match with my weight. Neither negative spring or compression circuit could manage my spring weight.

PS! A spring weight at 625 for your 191lb weight is in my world indicating that something is not matching and is far off. I am weighing 260lb on an e-bike at 690lb sprindex (145mm travel). I have used as low as 525lb on a Nicolai G1 (170mm travel), and as low as 600lb on a Spez Kenevo (180mm travel) and Focus Sam 6.8 ebike (170mm travel). My conclusion is that it is really frame depending and travel depending for if coil is usable.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Required spring rate is greatly effected by suspension design, LR & CS length.

The SJ Evo with the stock link requires 3x the riders weight for spring rate, ime.

Since the LR increases at sag with the Cascade link, adding the Cascade requires additional spring rate.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am not sure what dual accounts have to do? Is that disregarding what I am saying somehow? I have no intention to mislead or something with having two accounts. I give a **** about my accounts and what I say with one or both of them I can stand for.
> 
> What I mean is what I mean with both accounts and that is the misleading information or lack of important information that we do not get here.
> If you are professional you should regardless brand, be honest and tell about faults.
> ...


Well for one, it is a violation of the terms of this site. Ironic for someone that seems to think they are taking the moral high ground.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

DirtDiggler said:


> This sounds very interesting. Any idea on price? I think someone did similar a while back on this thread.


Airspring plus shimming according to my weight and Bike was under 150 Euro.

By dar the best Air shock ever ridden and my McLeod kingcan where He did the Same Treatment already was in one leaque With an float xw aß the airspring was Superior Afterwards.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Could we get established the fact that heavy riders (and maybe lighter riders as well as difficult frame kinematics) will have trouble with Mara Pro air spring?
> Instead of distracting with dual accounts, EXT fan boi, or whatsoever?
> 
> So including VAT 531 Euros for Mara Pro. Shipping back to Germany as suggested for tuning and do an air spring upgrade for a balanced one, and shipping back to Norway, is probably another 300-400 Euros??


It is an established fact. I am 210 pounds (95 kilos) have run the mara pro on an Ibis HD4 and a Banshee prime. It sucks. It sucks so bad, I bought a second one and my buddy is getting ready to buy one, as at 230 when he rode mine, he was floored how much better it felt than his Float X. Riders beware, if you are over 300 pounds this is not your shock.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Nope, that has nothing to do with it, since Manitou have chosen the approach to design an air spring with fixed neg air chamber. Read fixed! EXT Storia is custom tuned and will work for the rider/frame it is opposed to work for. It is like a custom made suit, and it is like saying that a big guy cannot use XS size.....Manitou Mara Pro has a design fault, at least they should have narrowed the window where the fixed negative pressure will work. Instead here in this thread it is hidden and the al mighty pro here is distracting difficult questions with dirt throwing. That is not respectable and despite all kind of pissing on me, I will not accept.
> 
> PS! I do not mind disrespect for EXT, and that is not the provoking here, it is more the way the lack of answer and the distracting answer instead of the truth.


Brace yourself, I'm attacking with more dyno graphs. These are spring-plots of a Manitou Mara Pro 210x50mm at 150psi and 300psi:
Smooth and controlled:









Here's a 2021 Fox FLOAT X2 at 150 and 220psi (I don't have a 300psi test handy).
Look at the dips as the equalisation port slides past.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

I'm calling Manitou!









Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Dougal said:


> Brace yourself, I'm attacking with more dyno graphs. These are spring-plots of a Manitou Mara Pro 210x50mm at 150psi and 300psi:
> Smooth and controlled:
> View attachment 1995814
> 
> ...


I call fowl.

Yea, you heard right: It’s chicken night.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Cary said:


> Well for one, it is a violation of the terms of this site. Ironic for someone that seems to think they are taking the moral high ground.


Okay, so by violation of terms, what I am saying is not valid?
In the way of a free mtb forum like mtbr, I find it a bit in place to at least speak out.


Cary said:


> It is an established fact. I am 210 pounds (95 kilos) have run the mara pro on an Ibis HD4 and a Banshee prime. It sucks. It sucks so bad, I bought a second one and my buddy is getting ready to buy one, as at 230 when he rode mine, he was floored how much better it felt than his Float X. Riders beware, if you are over 300 pounds this is not your shock.


Obviously someone that get`s it to work, and I assume you run it on low pressure. Mine did not work and other here in thread that obviously does not when they get the air spring redone with balancing port? And there are also not all that are obsessed with mid stroke support that bothers, like Blister review pointed out (btw Dougal thinks it was a good review as well).


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Brace yourself, I'm attacking with more dyno graphs. These are spring-plots of a Manitou Mara Pro 210x50mm at 150psi and 300psi:
> Smooth and controlled:
> View attachment 1995814
> 
> ...


Oh please do not do this I am crying when you show these dyno plots.......hahahaha not 

Again when dyno plot shows something and real life use proves otherwise.
I can say that the RS super deluxe 2023 have no felt dip, due to the balance port you show in your plot, when riding.
It has a supportive air spring and much better hydraulic control (both rebound/compression) then the Mara Pro. What I can say is that the RS does not feel as plush as the Mara Pro.
I have an old BOS Void air shock (I think 10 year old) that works really good on my Nicolai G1. It is smoother and plusher then the Mara Pro, but it is on a much longer travel bike.
What I am trying to say, that it is obviously a reason for the fixed neg chamber Manitou did, but in real life it does not work for some.

Funny to see that you still use so much energy to prove right, when old fashion air spring is proved to not work.

Could you confirm what weight range the Mara Pro actually works? Is it from 150 - 180 lb? When you have all your theoretical data you can of course define what force the negative air pressure will work for against the negative?


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

bansaiman said:


> Airspring plus shimming according to my weight and Bike was under 150 Euro.
> 
> By dar the best Air shock ever ridden and my McLeod kingcan where He did the Same Treatment already was in one leaque With an float xw aß the airspring was Superior Afterwards.


So with freight forth and back at 30+30 Euros and tuning for 150Euros, it will be at 260 Euros + Custom fee at 30 Eur it is 310 Total. This gives me an air shock for 841 Euros. 
This is in the range of a Bos Void3 tuned for your bike/weight and probably not far from the new EXT air shock. 
Not telling that a tuned Manitou will not be good, but cold me old fashioned when I believe that the Bos or EXT outperforms the Manitou.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Oh please do not do this I am crying when you show these dyno plots.......hahahaha not
> 
> Again when dyno plot shows something and real life use proves otherwise.
> I can say that the RS super deluxe 2023 have no felt dip, due to the balance port you show in your plot, when riding.
> ...


That's not how any of this works.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> That's not how any of this works.


??? What do you mean? It is not how it works?
You can obviously tell all of us by dyno plots and by theory how things works?
So why not tell what fixed pressure on negative chamber the Mara Pro will ideally work? I will assume it can be measured somehow? I understand that it cannot be quantified like with ie Fox 40 with negative coil spring. There it was with 3 different coil spring rates to handle different weight groups. I needed to give up since I did not get it to work with my weight and I could not get hold of a firmer negative coil spring either?

Is it possible to measure the force on the negative spring only? That could give you an indication for how much pressure it will work against for the positive chamber?


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Actually, that Dyno plot confirms what I was feeling as a heavier rider on the Mara Pro. I do feel the self equalizing bump-down on my other shocks, but when riding it's barely noticeable. I would sacrifice the small dip for a little softer transition off the top, but that's just my preference. Thanks for sharing.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> So with freight forth and back at 30+30 Euros and tuning for 150Euros, it will be at 260 Euros + Custom fee at 30 Eur it is 310 Total. This gives me an air shock for 841 Euros.
> This is in the range of a Bos Void3 tuned for your bike/weight and probably not far from the new EXT air shock.
> Not telling that a tuned Manitou will not be good, but cold me old fashioned when I believe that the Bos or EXT outperforms the Manitou.



150+30+30+30=240 but anway,when the shock Costa 400-450 in Germany IT Costs me 600 completely. But I paid 380. So my Deal was great For a shock outoerforming an x2.

But I cannot comments in the void3. Just know that manitou damping is often compared to bis when comparing their enduro forks.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

bansaiman said:


> 150+30+30+30=240 but anway,when the shock Costa 400-450 in Germany IT Costs me 600 completely. But I paid 380. So my Deal was great For a shock outoerforming an x2.
> 
> But I cannot comments in the void3. Just know that manitou damping is often compared to bis when comparing their enduro forks.


380 was a great deal. I think it is at around 500+- including VAT in german stores? Freight and VAT for me is bit higher. Manitou vs BOS damping is not comparable for shocks, since it is independent tuned on BOS. Manitou has one size fits all kind of tuning.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

DirtDiggler said:


> Actually, that Dyno plot confirms what I was feeling as a heavier rider on the Mara Pro. I do feel the self equalizing bump-down on my other shocks, but when riding it's barely noticeable. I would sacrifice the small dip for a little softer transition off the top, but that's just my preference. Thanks for sharing.


I am really impressed if you can actually see from the dyno plot how it was feeling? Can you actually tell me in words what you mean by that? I can understand you feel the the small dip for the transfer port, but you will not feel it when riding? On the RS super deluxe I do not feel the transfer port so good as I have felt on other air shocks like Fox and others. Not sure if they have done something new position or design on that as well?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am really impressed if you can actually see from the dyno plot how it was feeling? Can you actually tell me in words what you mean by that? I can understand you feel the the small dip for the transfer port, but you will not feel it when riding? On the RS super deluxe I do not feel the transfer port so good as I have felt on other air shocks like Fox and others. Not sure if they have done something new position or design on that as well?


It's almost like dyno plots are standardised tests so you can measure the factors that affect shock feel.

Transfer ports force sag and create dead spots. Doesn't matter if you can feel them or not. They're there.

Let us play a silly game. You tell us what you think is "ideal" rear shock spring curve and I'll tell you why that isn't going to work. I've measured dozens of rear shocks at well over a hundred different configurations.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> It's almost like dyno plots are standardised tests so you can measure the factors that affect shock feel.
> 
> Transfer ports force sag and create dead spots. Doesn't matter if you can feel them or not. They're there.
> 
> Let us play a silly game. You tell us what you think is "ideal" rear shock spring curve and I'll tell you why that isn't going to work. I've measured dozens of rear shocks at well over a hundred different configurations.


Nice! Can you show on dyno plot when high air pressure on Mara Pro makes it feel not good, due to fixed negative pressure? Also described in the Blisterreview just copied here to refresh:

"While the out-of-the-box tune of the “Work” mode on the Mara Pro is excellent, I had a harder time dialing in the setup of the shock for the way back down in “Party” mode. I largely put it down to the unconventional air-spring layout described above. 
Starting with the Mara Pro’s compression adjusters in the middle of their ranges, the air can set to the mid-volume setting (o-ring installed, no additional volume spacers), and the recommended 125 psi, the Mara Pro’s small-bump compliance was reasonable, if not outstanding, and I was able to use full travel reliably without bottoming harshly. But the midstroke support was lacking. Pumping the bike through compressions in the trail was met with a distinct lack of pop back out, and the rear end of the bike was settling too deep in the travel through sections of rough chop — sensations that were especially apparent when paired with the exceptionally supportive Manitou Mezzer Pro fork up front.

So, I then removed the Mara Pro’s air can o-ring to open up the can to maximum volume, and then ran higher air pressure. Doing this helped somewhat with midstroke support, but came at the expense of a great deal of small-bump compliance. Cranking up the low-speed compression had a similar effect. Despite experimenting with a huge range of settings, I struggled to find a combination that both offered the midstroke support I was looking for, while also maintaining decent small-bump sensitivity and / or avoiding excessive ramp-up deeper in the travel.

As I alluded to before, I think this is mostly down to the air spring. The tuning decisions that are in conflict with each other are as follows: running middle-of-the-road settings yields somewhat soft midstroke support. Increasing air pressure and increasing the air-can volume to still use full travel at the higher pressure does improve midstroke support, but comes more severely at the cost of small-bump compliance than with most air shocks, because increasing the positive air pressure doesn’t proportionately increase the negative pressure, and leads to the shock feeling quite stiff early in the stroke. Lowering the pressure to improve small-bump sensitivity directly reduces midstroke support (and requires lowering the air-can volume to regain bottom-out resistance, but that’s not a problem in and of itself)."


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Nice! Can you show on dyno plot when high air pressure on Mara Pro makes it feel not good, due to fixed negative pressure?


There is no point like that. This is now how this works.



Rumblefish2010 said:


> Also described in the Blisterreview just copied here to refresh:
> 
> "While the out-of-the-box tune of the “Work” mode on the Mara Pro is excellent, I had a harder time dialing in the setup of the shock for the way back down in “Party” mode. I largely put it down to the unconventional air-spring layout described above.
> Starting with the Mara Pro’s compression adjusters in the middle of their ranges, the air can set to the mid-volume setting (o-ring installed, no additional volume spacers), and the recommended 125 psi, the Mara Pro’s small-bump compliance was reasonable, if not outstanding, and I was able to use full travel reliably without bottoming harshly. But the midstroke support was lacking. Pumping the bike through compressions in the trail was met with a distinct lack of pop back out, and the rear end of the bike was settling too deep in the travel through sections of rough chop — sensations that were especially apparent when paired with the exceptionally supportive Manitou Mezzer Pro fork up front.
> ...


Dude needs to read a tuning guide. He's not setting up a shock in the correct order. I have only used pressures like 125psi on the bikes of light girls.





1 Page Suspension Setup Guide - Suspension Setup - Technical | Shockcraft







www.shockcraft.co.nz


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> There is no point like that. This is now how this works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, so the different reviewers out there are not actually knowing what they are doing? Not me either probably, since I did not got it to work? It is by coincident that the testers are getting all kind of shocks not to have these issues then? And I am just an amateur but I am pretty confident in setting up shocks, and is succeeding with most of them. Not that I have the outrageous source of shocks a reviewer has, still I have owned maybe 20+ different shocks last years.....??

Now I am just speculating, but it seems this bikeradar test of Mara Pro is really similar in conclusion of the blisterreview? But maybe that was something about the frame was it?
"After a fair amount of time testing the shock, the balance between spring rate for initial stroke breakaway, deep-travel support and low-speed compression control proved very hard to find. I ended up trying lower shock pressures (around 130psi), but with maximum low-speed compression to provide the lost support with the reduction in spring rate.

When any range of damping adjustment is maxed out, it’s going to have an effect on the other settings. When the shock was set like this I felt the high-speed compression was compromised – despite being fully open.

It also felt like I couldn’t tune in enough low-speed compression damping to keep it propped up and supportive in compressions, while having a low-enough spring rate so that the initial resistance to compress was mitigated.

I speculate that the need for this compromise was caused by the negative air spring not being big enough or having enough pressure to encourage the shock to compress. Bigger or tuneable negative air springs, such as RockShox’ MegNeg air can, help to reduce these feelings.

Manitou has identified the need for an adjustable negative air spring with its Mezzer fork – the negative air spring equalises pressure with the positive chamber automatically.

This begs the question: why doesn’t Manitou think a rear shock needs the same technology as the Mezzer, given most manufacturers have an automatically-equalising negative chamber?"


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> There is no point like that. This is now how this works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These reviewer actually interviewed Manitou about the approach to the air spring and Manitou confirm here what I have been searching for, but it is a really vague way to tell it does not work for heavy rider though :-( "*Heavy riders shouldn't expect the best response"* . From mtb-news.de:

"When asked why this meanwhile unconventional system is being used in a new development, Manitou elaborates: Every system has advantages and disadvantages. Advantage of the balancing systems: For heavy drivers, the spring struts offer a more sensitive response. There is a flat spot in the characteristic curve in the area where the chambers balance out. With a fixed air chamber pressure, however, the Mara should, according to the manufacturer, find its suspension travel very quickly and build up traction. Heavy riders shouldn't expect the best response."


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am really impressed if you can actually see from the dyno plot how it was feeling? Can you actually tell me in words what you mean by that? I can understand you feel the the small dip for the transfer port, but you will not feel it when riding? On the RS super deluxe I do not feel the transfer port so good as I have felt on other air shocks like Fox and others. Not sure if they have done something new position or design on that as well?


Firstly, I suggest that you take a look at some force/displacement graphs to get familiar. I'm far from an expert here and my only gripe has been with the 'initial stroke' or 'break away' of the Mara Pro at higher pressures. You can look at the first 0" to 0.4" of stroke on both shocks to draw your own conclusion on the initial breakaway force needed. You can get an idea of how it differs by the curve shape and force up to 0.4" and how the shocks differ at higher pressures. Take in mind it's not a direct comparison since the volume is different on each shock and the PSI is different (on the higher pressure example). As I've mentioned before, I really like the Mara Pro. I just wish they offered a 'big boy' can option with a self equalizing hole. But, many heavier guys still ride it and love it. I don't think it's appropriate to $hit all over this shock or the people who support it.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

DirtDiggler said:


> Firstly, I suggest that you take a look at some force/displacement graphs to get familiar. I'm far from an expert here and my only gripe has been with the 'initial stroke' or 'break away' of the Mara Pro at higher pressures. You can look at the first 0" to 0.4" of stroke on both shocks to draw your own conclusion on the initial breakaway force needed. You can get an idea of how it differs by the curve shape and force up to 0.4" and how the shocks differ at higher pressures. Take in mind it's not a direct comparison since the volume is different on each shock and the PSI is different (on the higher pressure example). As I've mentioned before, I really like the Mara Pro. I just wish they offered a 'big boy' can option with a self equalizing hole. But, many heavier guys still ride it and love it. I don't think it's appropriate to $hit all over this shock or the people who support it.


I will try to read the dyno plots, and i see the force at initial travel are a lot higher on Mara Pro with highest pressure.

I hope you are not saying that I am sh...ting on this shock? I am just trying to get the f....ing truth brought on the table. Not a biased sales person or a fan boi stating that all is superior, and after that starts pissing on them who dare to try to ask negative questions about Manitou or on the products mentioned by the same person. Just look above here and in other threads, same sales person and fan bois are doing the same. Actually competing with pissing on other products.

In this case, in the end we found that Manitou themself says in interview, what I wanted to know long time ago.
Contacting Manitou and getting answers directly is also going on, and I will probably get the same answer. They are in holiday at the moment in Europe.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

I have owned quite a few Manitou suspension components throughout the years - good, bad & the ugly. I'd like to consider myself an informed consumer and nowadays there should be enough information, for most, to get a good idea what they are purchasing. I had considered the McLeod and now the Mara but had read about the fixed negative and had second thoughts. As with most suspension components camps form - love, hate and somewhere in-between. Again there is enough information on this shock to get a descent buyers perspective. I consider this a Mara enthusiast post and I wouldn't expect to find any major discord here and if the shock could not be tuned for someone's liking sell and move on.


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## Pedro46 (Apr 12, 2017)

Not sure if this has been asked before on this thread - does anyone know if the Mara pro shock will fit an Evil Calling (medium frame) without any clearance issues? And does this does shock work well with the dual progressive design of the suspension?
thanks


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I will try to read the dyno plots, and i see the force at initial travel are a lot higher on Mara Pro with highest pressure.
> 
> I hope you are not saying that I am sh...ting on this shock? I am just trying to get the f....ing truth brought on the table. Not a biased sales person or a fan boi stating that all is superior, and after that starts pissing on them who dare to try to ask negative questions about Manitou or on the products mentioned by the same person. Just look above here and in other threads, same sales person and fan bois are doing the same. Actually competing with pissing on other products.
> 
> ...


Don't you have like, 10 cats to feed or something? STFU already, we get it, you are still salty from that EXT ERA fiasco and somehow you think this is your chance to finally deliver a brutal comeuppance to your enemies, when all you have done is expose yourself as a choad with more MTBR user accounts than good points to make.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

My god 😆 rumbledish your old rumbler.

The Mara pro Air spring has its disadvantage indeed, but the whole concept With the shimable climbswitch (Piston based could be shimed as a whole trail Mode as well) fast shimable compression loader and the complete damping in General is great.
IT only nerds Tod ti your Bike,of course. But even With the Tuning measure I mentioned the shock ist still a Steal as the Manufakturing and damping Qualität is better than the Main competitors.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Velodonata said:


> Don't you have like, 10 cats to feed or something? STFU already, we get it, you are still salty from that EXT ERA fiasco and somehow you think this is your chance to finally deliver a brutal comeuppance to your enemies, when all you have done is expose yourself as a choad with more MTBR user accounts than good points to make.


Hello fan boi  !!! Kiss kiss, yeah but the difference is that I actually have respect and actually owns products before I state something about it. Opposed to you guys you never owned it and still piss on it. I have at the moment 3 Manitou forks (I have owned 4 other before that), at the moment I have 3 EXT shocks (I have had 3 other EXT shocks before) and a I have couple of RS Zeb`s, Ohlins DH38 and a some air shocks like BOS, Mara Inline and RS Super Deluxe 2023. Still I do not have more then 5 bikes , so I swap around some of these shocks/forks.

But most important, I ride my products and do not sit around and make theoretical analysis or statements meant to piss on something or someone, and worst of all to make people to agree and believe in it. 

I consider myself honest to my teeth when it comes to products, and I can admit that I tested EXT Era and I did not like it, mostly because I like 38mm and DC forks. The manitou forks is fat bike forks (mastodon) and only in use at winter time. Still there are many out there that love ERA, and just saying that it is a "fiasco" is so f....ing stupid. 

Anyway just want to say one more time, I tested and made an honest chance to Mara Pro. Made a couple of questions and did not get any answer, but the pissing started.....say no more.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> .....say no more.



If only you were capable. Then this thread could get back to useful discussion.

Nobody said a fixed negative chamber is perfect for all people. It has pros and cons like anything else. If the cons are too much for you, sell it, move on and leave this thread. No one is trying to convince you to keep it.

I don't see any "fan boy" activity here. I love the shock, but have been very vocal about wanting to improve the air spring. So, I did something about it. I made a custom adjustable negative chamber on mine. It's amazing. Even without that, it absolutely crushes a custom tuned Super Deluxe.

So, goodbye, move on, you won't be missed. 


Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Hello fan boi  !!! Kiss kiss, yeah but the difference is that I actually have respect and actually owns products before I state something about it. Opposed to you guys you never owned it and still piss on it. I have at the moment 3 Manitou forks (I have owned 4 other before that), at the moment I have 3 EXT shocks (I have had 3 other EXT shocks before) and a I have couple of RS Zeb`s, Ohlins DH38 and a some air shocks like BOS, Mara Inline and RS Super Deluxe 2023. Still I do not have more then 5 bikes , so I swap around some of these shocks/forks.
> 
> But most important, I ride my products and do not sit around and make theoretical analysis or statements meant to piss on something or someone, and worst of all to make people to agree and believe in it.
> 
> ...



Manitou mezzer With polished stanionvhs and callibrated bushings,custom shimstack For 150euro was still far cheaper and much more sensitive better than the Era. Only a Bit less supportive.
but my old 34 DeVille With custom shimstack and a little smaller negative chamber Rocks Them all damoingwise and only leaves a Bit less Support and weighs top much For ITS stiffness.it still Rides fantastic. Same goes For new the DeVille 2 With callibrated bushings.

mara pro With modified negative spring was the best airshock ever and really sensitive grippy. Only havent Tester the void 3. But only Use Coil shocks now anyway. Want the Most reliable stuff With few needed spare parts in this world With more and more Delivery issues.

so habe a great working Fox Van/Bomber cr With Tuning Pistons,custom inners in my 650b 160/140 trailbike.
works great and is reliable. A storia my follows For my enduro


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I will try to read the dyno plots, and i see the force at initial travel are a lot higher on Mara Pro with highest pressure.


Yes and that's how bigger riders are able to get useful sag numbers instead of hitting air shock pressure limits.

got a 120kg rider on a bike that starts with 3:1 leverage. He's got 2/3 of his weight on the back axle.
So that's 80kgx3 = 240kg (530lb) force on the shock at sag.

On the Mara Pro (55 stroke, medium volume) at 300psi that's about 0.8" of sag (37%) and the spring-rate is almost 500lb/in.
On the Float X2 we haven't got a 300psi plot, so we'll multiply the 220psi plot by 1.36. It takes you to ~0.9" of sag (42% sag) and the spring rate is a touch lower.

As you can see, the bigger negative chambers on shocks have downsides. Too much negative means the shock needs very high pressure to support bigger riders. We often can't get enough air pressure for those guys on many shocks.
I've talked a lot of riders out of Meg-Neg cans for this exact reason.

Next step for bigger guys can be a smaller volume air-can. We have that option too.

On a fork there is no downside to more and more negative air. On a rear shock it becomes a big problem.



Rumblefish2010 said:


> Anyway just want to say one more time, I tested and made an honest chance to Mara Pro. Made a couple of questions and did not get any answer, but the pissing started.....say no more.


Yeah sure. You just created a sock-puppet account at the same time who's only posts on the whole board were targeted at this Manitou shock. Just happened to coincide with EXT releasing it's own air-shock. Your sock-puppet account just happens to conjure up unique problems that defy physics, reality and experience.

Totally legit and honest huh?


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Yeah sure. You just created a sock-puppet account at the same time who's only posts on the whole board were targeted at this Manitou shock. Just happened to coincide with EXT releasing it's own air-shock. Your sock-puppet account just happens to conjure up unique problems that defy physics, reality and experience.
> 
> Totally legit and honest huh?


Yeah totally ruin my questions.....yeah right  Anyway the Mara Pro is shipped back and money refunded. Riding the RS Super Deluxe 2023 and works so much better and even paid less then the Mara. I think it runs at 280PSI. Really good hydraulic control on both compression and rebound. Does not need to run completely locked rebound and it does not change behaveur. All much better then the Mara Pro.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Anyway the Mara Pro is shipped back and money refunded. Riding the RS Super Deluxe 2023 and works so much better and even paid less then the Mara...


Cool story bro. Why don't you make a post about it? Then you can use all your accounts and have a circle jerk over there.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Velodonata said:


> Cool story bro. Why don't you make a post about it? Then you can use all your accounts and have a circle jerk over there.


Not sure where you got that idea from, I wonder if that is what you Manitou fan bois are doing, probably in a groups  Is it with Mara Pros used as bu....p...ugs as well


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Yes and that's how bigger riders are able to get useful sag numbers instead of hitting air shock pressure limits.
> 
> got a 120kg rider on a bike that starts with 3:1 leverage. He's got 2/3 of his weight on the back axle.
> So that's 80kgx3 = 240kg (530lb) force on the shock at sag.
> ...


So you are still trying to convince that Mara Pro is useful for big riders? Did you completely avoid looking at the fact that Manitou themself means that the Mara Pro is not ideal for heavy riders?
I am really impressed how narrow sighted it can get.

As I said, the RS Super Deluxe is working just fine. Both air spring and hydraulic copes really well and it is consistent with no difference in behavior from cold to getting hot. 
Rebound does not need to be fully closed either like on the Mara Pro.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Yes and that's how bigger riders are able to get useful sag numbers instead of hitting air shock pressure limits.
> 
> got a 120kg rider on a bike that starts with 3:1 leverage. He's got 2/3 of his weight on the back axle.
> So that's 80kgx3 = 240kg (530lb) force on the shock at sag.
> ...



To get an Alternative approach For both contenders Here:

Once WE Had a small batch from a forum Tuner of a X-Fusion vector HLR whose negative chamber He modified to have a separate valve so the pressure get be adjusted similar to DVOs ott in their forks.
Of course IT would make the shock a Bit more expensive and Need more meat in the area For the valve. But IT would make a viable solution as well.

The INTEND BC highend shock HOVER has adjustable pressure in the negative chamber as Well (smoothest of the shelve Air shock) and the upcoming ext Aria and CHICKADEHILL LFB6 have 2 separate positive Chambers and thus valves as Well.

So would be e great Upgrade to Take Advantage of the fixed negative chamber and improve it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> So you are still trying to convince that Mara Pro is useful for big riders? Did you completely avoid looking at the fact that Manitou themself means that the Mara Pro is not ideal for heavy riders?
> I am really impressed how narrow sighted it can get.
> 
> As I said, the RS Super Deluxe is working just fine. Both air spring and hydraulic copes really well and it is consistent with no difference in behavior from cold to getting hot.
> Rebound does not need to be fully closed either like on the Mara Pro.


It's like you can't or won't read what anyone else writes.

The stock Mara Pro rebound range is similar to a stock MM320 Super Deluxe. Kinda weird you were running one closed and not the other.


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## jlbanta (Apr 5, 2011)

Does anyone have setting recommendations for a 140 lb rider? I didn’t see any in the google sheets file. I found 115 to be good pressure rather quickly but think I could go lower if I add more damping. When I tried 125psi and the rear end went from good to sketchy quick. This is on a highly progressive bike, YT Jeffsy.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jlbanta said:


> Does anyone have setting recommendations for a 140 lb rider? I didn’t see any in the google sheets file. I found 115 to be good pressure rather quickly but think I could go lower if I add more damping. When I tried 125psi and the rear end went from good to sketchy quick. This is on a highly progressive bike, YT Jeffsy.


Leverage ratio is everything. Got a curve and shock length/stroke?


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## miles of pain (Sep 11, 2009)

Re mounting hardware for this shock - (Apologies because I see this has been covered in this thread but I'm confused/missing some details)

The manitou hardware I need (for a guerilla gravity frame) is still out of stock. Seems like there's a bushing integrated in the eyelet, or is that whole chrome ringed bit able to be pressed out and replaced with a typical DU bushing?


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

miles of pain said:


> Re mounting hardware for this shock - (Apologies because I see this has been covered in this thread but I'm confused/missing some details)
> 
> The manitou hardware I need (for a guerilla gravity frame) is still out of stock. Seems like there's a bushing integrated in the eyelet, or is that whole chrome ringed bit able to be pressed out and replaced with a typical DU bushing?
> View attachment 1997759


That looks like a standard 1/2” (12.7mm) DU Bushing to me. They are silver on the faces. 
Fox DU Bushing


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

miles of pain said:


> is that whole chrome ringed bit able to be pressed out and replaced with a typical DU bushing?


Yes.


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## DirtDiggler (Jun 19, 2004)

You can use any typical hardware from Fox, Cane Creek or DVO. I used DVO shock hardware for my GG and Mara Pro. Also, the hardware is always out of stock at GG, online. Shoot them an email directly and ask them if they have any in stock.


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## jlbanta (Apr 5, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Leverage ratio is everything. Got a curve and shock length/stroke?


210x55 shock & the leverage ratio ranges from approximately 3.4 to 2.3 in the low position.
At the 115-120 psi in the main can, I still had around 10% travel left off a ski jump to flat. It may be fine as is, just curious if there is anything to be gained one way or the other. I started with full open (-15) LSC and +2 clicks from open on HSC.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

jlbanta said:


> 210x55 shock & the leverage ratio ranges from approximately 3.4 to 2.3 in the low position.
> At the 115-120 psi in the main can, I still had around 10% travel left off a ski jump to flat. It may be fine as is, just curious if there is anything to be gained one way or the other. I started with full open (-15) LSC and +2 clicks from open on HSC.
> 
> View attachment 1997906


35% progression which is close to coil only territory. I would start with the can set to full volume, high speed compression full open, low speed compression 15-18 clicks out, rebound 9-10 clicks out from closed. Set your pressure to get you 15-16mm sag at the shock shaft. Go from there.


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## tezzyrecords (Aug 2, 2020)

Hey everyone, I guess I need your help on this one.

I recently bought a Mara Pro, it was 210x50 out of the box and I managed to convert it to 210x55. I took my time for the bleed and Party Mode is working as it should. But when I flip the shock into Work Mode there is a hard "clonk" sound when compressing the bike. Compressing is maybe a weak word for the force I'm putting in, I literally have to jump on the saddle to get it moving. It seems to be locked out and then - when the force is high enough - it seems to be braking loose internally making the "clonk". I checked the frame hardware, the headset, the fork, the breaks, ...everything is as it should.
I cannot compare this behavior before/after 'cause I made the conversion right away.
I have to say it is a "B-stock" item and it was a stellar price, maybe too cheap as it doesn't pay off...
Any idea is much appreciated!

Some specs: Bike is a 2020 Orbea Occam (Mezzer Pro 160mm up front), came from a DVO Topaz long travelled 210x50 to 210x55. My weight is 185lbs, shock is at 165psi. Whoever owned it in the first place ruined the split-backup-ring and I stuffed the outer-lower chamber with volume spacers of the Topaz and some grease making it split-chambered. The bike has a moderate leverage curve (below 20%) so I thought, the half chamber was a good starting point. Moderate trail riding, occasional visit to the bike-park, but nothing crazy. I service my own stuff, hence my decisions for Manitou or DVO.

P.S.: One more question. My first idea concerning the clonk is that it must have something to do with the work-mode compression stack which is located at the bottom of the piggy back. But for some reason I cannot get my cassette tool in to open it up. Is there a trick to fit the tool or had the piggy a revision or something? The shock was manufactured 01/07/20.

Again, I'm happy for any input on this!

Edit: ah, I get it. It's not a modern cassette tool like for the mezzer but an old school cassette tool for 5-10-speed...


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

Anybody know where I can find some volume spacers for the Mara pro? Long shot but would topaz spacers work at all with it?


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## EVgEEk (Jan 8, 2015)

SB666 said:


> Anybody know where I can find some volume spacers for the Mara pro? Long shot but would topaz spacers work at all with it?


I used Topaz spacers and they seem to work fine.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

EVgEEk said:


> I used Topaz spacers and they seem to work fine.


Awesome! Already got those


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jlbanta said:


> 210x55 shock & the leverage ratio ranges from approximately 3.4 to 2.3 in the low position.
> At the 115-120 psi in the main can, I still had around 10% travel left off a ski jump to flat. It may be fine as is, just curious if there is anything to be gained one way or the other. I started with full open (-15) LSC and +2 clicks from open on HSC.
> 
> View attachment 1997906


That's quite progressive. First step is going to full volume on the air-can. Open up the outer layer and take out the divider o-ring and it's backup ring. Check there's an o-ring at the end position and if not move the divider o-ring down there.



tezzyrecords said:


> Hey everyone, I guess I need your help on this one.
> 
> I recently bought a Mara Pro, it was 210x50 out of the box and I managed to convert it to 210x55. I took my time for the bleed and Party Mode is working as it should. But when I flip the shock into Work Mode there is a hard "clonk" sound when compressing the bike. Compressing is maybe a weak word for the force I'm putting in, I literally have to jump on the saddle to get it moving. It seems to be locked out and then - when the force is high enough - it seems to be braking loose internally making the "clonk". I checked the frame hardware, the headset, the fork, the breaks, ...everything is as it should.
> I cannot compare this behavior before/after 'cause I made the conversion right away.
> ...


It's likely you've bled it without enough oil and sucked the flexible IFP down onto the end of the valving at full extension. The clonk is it sucking loose. Fix is to inject ~2cc more oil into the shock (deflate IFP first).


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## tezzyrecords (Aug 2, 2020)

Dougal said:


> It's likely you've bled it without enough oil and sucked the flexible IFP down onto the end of the valving at full extension. The clonk is it sucking loose. Fix is to inject ~2cc more oil into the shock (deflate IFP first).


It's very likely that you are right. Thanks for the hint.
What I did is I went to the LBS and bought the right cassette-tool. I revisited the manual and tore the shock down and performed a proper bleed including a reset of the IFP. It took some time and patience but it payed off. The shock works like a charm, the clonk is gone and it is super quiet and controlled in both modes. I love the feeling so far.

I did the bleed with WPL 2,5WT 'cause I had it on the shelf. Any thoughts on using WPL? Viscosity at 40° seems close...


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## jb0000 (Mar 30, 2021)

Hi all, I'm asking once again since I'm about done messing with this shock.

Here's what it does, since new:

- With the rebound adjuster open, there is a loud clicking noise on compression, then on compression->rebound transition, a second quieter click can be heard.

- With the rebound adjuster closed, there in no clicking noise. The farther away from closed the louder the clicking.

- Lockout and LSC/HSC adjusters have no effect on it.

- After the shock sits still for a while it takes a couple compressions to get it clicking again.

This makes me think it's something to do with the mid valve or the rebound needle. However, upon disassembly (2nd time now...), I can't find anything in wrong order, or any wrong parts for the shock size...

My only theory is that somehow the rebound needle is being sucked shut on the compression stroke.

Any clues?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jb0000 said:


> Hi all, I'm asking once again since I'm about done messing with this shock.
> 
> Here's what it does, since new:
> 
> ...


I'd agree with your theory. There's a spring on the rebound needle that can be shimmed up by about 3mm. the rebound needle o-rings could possibly be upsized to add more friction to hold it too.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

piciu256 said:


> How do I get rid of this sound?


Ok, so the scratching/ whistling noise was just a sign that the shock needs a fresh bleed. It got worse after my last bike park day, and upon opening the shock it was clear that it's the damper, not the air can, that's making the sound. Oil was quite foamed up. Is it proper for the shock to need re bleeding after ~35km vertical, 1200km of riding?
Also, there were some black specs being left by the seal head on the shaft, is there way to tell if it's pieces of the oring, or the bushings?


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## jb0000 (Mar 30, 2021)

Dougal said:


> I'd agree with your theory. There's a spring on the rebound needle that can be shimmed up by about 3mm. the rebound needle o-rings could possibly be upsized to add more friction to hold it too.


Thanks Dougal. I'm about to do both mods, hopefully it gets the job done.
This does beg the question though, how come my shock does it while others do not?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jb0000 said:


> Thanks Dougal. I'm about to do both mods, hopefully it gets the job done.
> This does beg the question though, how come my shock does it while others do not?


Dunno, but I'm trying to find out.


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## miles of pain (Sep 11, 2009)

Ok got a couple big days on my Mara pro so far - very happy with this shock! 
It's replacing a Topaz, which replaced a DPX2. The topaz was a _big_ upgrade from the DPX2, and the Mara is a noticeable upgrade from the topaz. 

The mara at 25% sag feels as plush as the topaz did at 30% sag on small bumps, and is plusher through the mid/end stroke (I assume from the bigger volume = more linear spring) - and without feeling sloppy or wallowing. It's become a meme to say at this point, but it does feel like a coil.


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## ToniT (Jun 1, 2018)

I'm thinking of buying the Mara pro, but before I do, how does it work for lighter riders?
I'm around 61-64kg, currently I run a superdeluxe on a Nukeproof Mega (2018), but it's the basic version with only rebound adjustment.
Can't decide if I should go for a coil or try the mara. The terrain I ride is steep, lots of rocks, roots and technical, don't care about jumping etc.
Just for reference I'm running the Mezzer at 38psi main and 70psi in IRT and find it fantastic for the steeps.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

ToniT said:


> I'm thinking of buying the Mara pro, but before I do, how does it work for lighter riders?
> I'm around 61-64kg, currently I run a superdeluxe on a Nukeproof Mega (2018), but it's the basic version with only rebound adjustment.
> Can't decide if I should go for a coil or try the mara. The terrain I ride is steep, lots of rocks, roots and technical, don't care about jumping etc.
> Just for reference I'm running the Mezzer at 38psi main and 70psi in IRT and find it fantastic for the steeps.


I think it would work very well for you. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It works well for me @55kg on a Propain Tyee. Running max volume @30% sag, had to soften the rebound shims stack, but other than that it's alright.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

piciu256 said:


> It works well for me @55kg on a Propain Tyee. Running max volume @30% sag, had to soften the rebound shims stack, but other than that it's alright.


What does changing the rebound shim stack entail? I have never done it... I am running my Mara Pro all the way open on rebound and could still probably go a little faster on the rebound - that would mean I need a lighter tune right?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Google it, or search shim stack in this thread. I described what I did (by guestimating) to fit the tune to my weight.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

thanks. Am I right in my understanding that “lighter” means lighter damping and so could be faster?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Yes, of course. I'm guessing the shock is tuned to work best over 70kg from factory, depending on the leverage ratio. I run mine @100psi for 30% sag with full volume king can. Rebound knob right smack in the middle position after removing 2 shims.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

SB666 said:


> What does changing the rebound shim stack entail? I have never done it... I am running my Mara Pro all the way open on rebound and could still probably go a little faster on the rebound - that would mean I need a lighter tune right?


That's the easiest one to access, drop IFP pressure, unscrew the damper body and it's there on the end of the piston.

There are two main rebound tunes I've found. The firmer tune has a 0.3mm shim which most riders are better off without.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

Dougal said:


> That's the easiest one to access, drop IFP pressure, unscrew the damper body and it's there on the end of the piston.
> 
> There are two main rebound tunes I've found. The firmer tune has a 0.3mm shim which most riders are better off without.


Thank you!


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

Just installed a mara pro on my 2022 Stumpjumper EVO with a cascade link.

I'm about 220lbs with a pretty aggressive riding style. Any tips for a starting point in terms of rebound, lsc, hsc, pressure, and tokens?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Juggafat said:


> Just installed a mara pro on my 2022 Stumpjumper EVO with a cascade link.
> 
> I'm about 220lbs with a pretty aggressive riding style. Any tips for a starting point in terms of rebound, lsc, hsc, pressure, and tokens?


I have the same bike/ set up. 

Place the o- ring in the middle position to reduce the air chamber by half. Then in addition use 2 volume reducers. 

As I recall air pressure is just a few psi less than body weight. 

I also like hsc all the way counterclockwise, but I weigh 30#s less than you. 

GL.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> I have the same bike/ set up.
> 
> Place the o- ring in the middle position to reduce the air chamber by half. Then in addition use 2 volume reducers.
> 
> ...


The volume reducers are just the bands that fit inside the air sleeve right?

I'm coming from fox shocks where volume reducers are plastic pucks inside the main chamber of the air can.


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> I have the same bike/ set up.
> 
> Place the o- ring in the middle position to reduce the air chamber by half. Then in addition use 2 volume reducers.
> 
> ...


air pressure is significantly less than body weight. I’m also on the stumpy with no cascade, weigh 175 geared up and run 145 psi with the o ring and 3 volume spacers


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Higher leverage ratio with Cascade = higher air pressure. 

I weigh 190 and use 171 in my Mara Pro. So the same percent air pressure if you use the same air can reduction and the Cascade will put you in the ball park. 


Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Bigger leverage ratio with Cascade = higher air pressure.
> 
> I weigh 190 and use 171 in my Mara Pro. So the same percent air pressure if you use the same air can reduction and the Cascade will be you in the ball park.
> 
> ...


Damn that's a high leverage: Stumpjumper EVO LT Link (2021-Current)


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Damn that's a high leverage: Stumpjumper EVO LT Link (2021-Current)


True. But it's coil supple off the top with really good midrange support (due to higher psi) and good bottom out resistance with the Cascade. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Damn that's a high leverage: Stumpjumper EVO LT Link (2021-Current)


Shockwiz reported a 4.3 ratio when measuring with the mara pro with 5 spacers. Not sure if that's correct but it's wildly high.

Shockwiz also wants me to make HSC softer but I'm running it fully open (fully counter clockwise).

Currently I'm running 198psi.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Juggafat said:


> Shockwiz reported a 4.3 ratio when measuring with the mara pro with 5 spacers. Not sure if that's correct but it's wildly high.
> 
> Shockwiz also wants me to make HSC softer but I'm running it fully open (fully counter clockwise).
> 
> Currently I'm running 198psi.


Thats the compression ratio, not a leverage ratio.


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## Bicmtb123 (Sep 26, 2021)

Been lurking in this thread for quite some time. Hope to contribute something here:

I've been using Mara Pro for a month now on my Revel Rascal. I'm about 165 lbs fully kitted.
The Mara Pro is very plush and smooth compared to the previous RS Super Deluxe Ultimate it replaced.
The compression and rebound damping effect is more pronounced/obvious than the RS SDU. Really enjoyed tuning it to my liking.

At first I had difficulties with the mid-stroke support, but have since fixed that playing around with the aircan volume and spacers.
I still experience bottom-out (probably due to Rascal's not so progressive design (??), but I barely notice it at all. It doesn't feel harsh when it does it.

To the experts here: Recently, I felt that there's a bit of friction in the damper body/ stanchion of the shock.
When I check it, I saw micro-scratches in the shaft (see attached image). I opened the aircan and saw that the aircan wiper seal has this hard/sharp groove that could've damaged the stanchion surface. Do you experience the same with your Mara's? Is there a way to smoothen out the micro-scratches in the stanchion?


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

Bicmtb123 said:


> Been lurking in this thread for quite some time. Hope to contribute something here:
> 
> I've been using Mara Pro for a month now on my Revel Rascal. I'm about 165 lbs fully kitted.
> The Mara Pro is very plush and smooth compared to the previous RS Super Deluxe Ultimate it replaced.
> ...


that seal looks pretty dry also, some slick honey could help. Could hit the stanchion with some fine wet sandpaper


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## Bicmtb123 (Sep 26, 2021)

SB666 said:


> that seal looks pretty dry also, some slick honey could help. Could hit the stanchion with some fine wet sandpaper


I cleaned the seal before I took a picture. But there was definitely some grease on it when I first opened. In fact I think it was oil, as it was less viscous.
Ok - I'll try to play around with a sandpaper then!

Interested to hear the thoughts of other Mara users here. Didn't expect the Mara to show such scratches when I am only doing light trail riding.


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

*Setup:*

2022 Stumper EVO with Cascade link
225lb rider weight
190 PSI
Air can o-ring placed in middle position
5 volume spacers
HSC 0
LSC 23
Rebound 8


I've just had a test ride on the Mara Pro and am using a Shockwiz to get to a nice baseline. Here are my initial impressions:

*Pros:*

The sensitivity is insane. Small bumps and rocks literally just disappear under the rear tire. I actually had to pull over a few times to make sure I didn't have a rear flat. I've never owned a coil in my life but this is how I imagine a coil would feel.
On medium sized hits, the rear shock is incredibly plush and soft - much more than my Float X.
I'm able to run considerably less air pressure than my Float X. On my Float X I was running 260 PSI and on the Mara Pro I'm setting at 190 PSI.
*Cons:*

The shock is much more noisy than my Float X. I'm getting a loud squish sound which is probably just the damper but I am also getting a rattly metallic sound on hard/fast impacts
The stroke is really active while pedaling. I know the shock has a work mode but I'm the kind of person who just leaves their shock wide open for fear of switching it for the descents. Seated climbing is ok but standing pedaling bobs pretty bad.
There's definitely a significant decrease in midstroke support compared to my Float X. The shock feels pretty wallowy in some situations like quick direction changes in S berms. I'm going to try adding some LSC to combat that.
Shockwiz is telling me that I need to further reduce HSC but I am running it wide open.
The party/work lever may be loose and sliding into the work mode after a few hard runs. I'm not 100% sure if this is happening or I'm accidentally or subconsciously doing it.
*Undecided:*

This shock changes the way this bike feels and rides in a significant way. With the Float X, the rear end was pretty stiff and on the harsher side but the bike rode very fast. With the Mara Pro, the rear end is exponentially more comfortable and magic carpet ride-like. I wasn't riding race pace today but even on the runs that I was riding with intention, I was still quite a bit slower than with the Float X. Tomorrow I'm going to go back to my test trail and go race pace.
I haven't had a chance to climb much single track yet but this shock seems to give me infinite rear traction. The trade-off is that the rear suspension is extremely active and may be sapping a lot of power.

If anyone has any suggestions on the metallic rattling sound or addressing any of my listed cons, it would be greatly appreciated.


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## jb0000 (Mar 30, 2021)

I can't seem to successfully bleed the shock a 2nd time. First time was a breeze. Now, after getting the oil air-free, within a couple compressions the oil in the shock body gets aerated with a million tiny bubbles.
I've rebuilt it again, inspecting every seal and undoing the rebound rod o-ring change. However, the issue still remains.
Is there a likely culprit I should be paying special attention to?


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Juggafat said:


> Shockwiz reported a 4.3 ratio when measuring with the mara pro with 5 spacers. Not sure if that's correct but it's wildly high.


This has nothing to do with your linkage, it's purely the ratio in pressure differences when the shock is aired down to when it is compressed, it's how Shockwiz determines where you are in the stroke of the shock. I would suggest doing this several times in a row, the calibration process is fairly fickle and can throw your results off.

Either that or find someone with MotionIQ or BYB, Shockwiz results are almost always garbage in my experience. You can throw the entire average off with one hit and it's easy to chase the needle with it, trying to satisfy it with wildly insane changes. The results can be useful, but it requires someone that has spent a lot of time with it and knows when it is being stupid. The tools that provide actual raw data give you much better information. 

I can probably summarize what needs to change: remove spacers, add air, speed up your rebound, and reduce compression. That's almost always where people end up.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

jb0000 said:


> I can't seem to successfully bleed the shock a 2nd time. First time was a breeze. Now, after getting the oil air-free, within a couple compressions the oil in the shock body gets aerated with a million tiny bubbles.
> I've rebuilt it again, inspecting every seal and undoing the rebound rod o-ring change. However, the issue still remains.
> Is there a likely culprit I should be paying special attention to?


Maybe the bleed screw? Check to see if there’s any oil seepage around it that might be also allowing air into the shock.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I use Shockwiz and if I ride the same, even on different but similar trails, I get the exact same result 95% of the time and that other 5% of time it'll just about always show HSC being 1 color to stiff, so still not a huge change.

Typically I enjoy messing with my suspension and getting it just so but recently I played with just riding in work mode, and honestly it's harsh but the bike just climbs so well like that. It's not a small difference with these chicken legs!

Frankly I look forward to some auto lock/ unlock rear shocks in the future.


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## jb0000 (Mar 30, 2021)

Moosedriver said:


> Maybe the bleed screw? Check to see if there’s any oil seepage around it that might be also allowing air into the shock.


Thanks for the oil seepage tip. I degreased the entire shock and only now I could see a small leak around where the shock body meets the seal head.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Juggafat said:


> *Setup:*
> 
> 2022 Stumper EVO with Cascade link
> 225lb rider weight
> ...


I would add air pressure first. Like you noticed, the shock is so sensitive that you can run it with way less sag than other shocks and still eat up small bumps. This should help with your midstroke support and "lazy* attitude.

The metallic sound isn't normal. Chase that down.

The squishy sound could be normal damper operation, or it could be air in the oil. Burping a small amount of fluid after a ride should tell you. It shouldn't be milky. 

My work mode switch is very firm. It should not move on its own. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Bicmtb123 said:


> Been lurking in this thread for quite some time. Hope to contribute something here:
> 
> I've been using Mara Pro for a month now on my Revel Rascal. I'm about 165 lbs fully kitted.
> The Mara Pro is very plush and smooth compared to the previous RS Super Deluxe Ultimate it replaced.
> ...


In the end of the air-can is the wiper seal (soft rubber), the aluminum lip that holds the seal, the PTFE backup ring, quad-ring (soft rubber) and another aluminium lip. You've circled the aluminium lip and it is clear of the shock body, the PTFE ring is your bearing surface which keeps the seals centred and the metal away from each other.

Looks like your shock needs lubed.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Juggafat said:


> *Setup:*
> 
> 2022 Stumper EVO with Cascade link
> 225lb rider weight
> ...


I've just got two recommendations.

1. Throw the shockwiz away. You've already got a lot less damping than you should ideally have (due to the really high leverage and your weight), reducing HSC is bananas. You could triple the stock compression damping and still be in range.
2. Run more pressure. 200psi is very soft for your weight and leverage.


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

Dougal said:


> I've just got two recommendations.
> 
> 1. Throw the shockwiz away. You've already got a lot less damping than you should ideally have (due to the really high leverage and your weight), reducing HSC is bananas. You could triple the stock compression damping and still be in range.
> 2. Run more pressure. 200psi is very soft for your weight and leverage.


Because the Mara Pro completely changes the feel of my bike, I'm using the shockwiz to try and get to a ballpark baseline. Maybe you're right though since it keeps asking me to decrease HSC and pressure.

With 200psi being soft for my weight, do you have a ballpark figure for where shock pressure should be? Are we talking 10% or more like 20% more?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Juggafat said:


> Because the Mara Pro completely changes the feel of my bike, I'm using the shockwiz to try and get to a ballpark baseline. Maybe you're right though since it keeps asking me to decrease HSC and pressure.
> 
> With 200psi being soft for my weight, do you have a ballpark figure for where shock pressure should be? Are we talking 10% or more like 20% more?


A year ago I did calcs for a 125kg rider on a Turbo Levo. It came out at 690lb/in. A Mara Pro at 300psi still only graphs out with a midstroke below 500lb/in. You've got a bit less weight and a little bit more leverage.

Go straight to 250psi and see how you like it.


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

CCS86 said:


> I would add air pressure first. Like you noticed, the shock is so sensitive that you can run it with way less sag than other shocks and still eat up small bumps. This should help with your midstroke support and "lazy* attitude.
> 
> The metallic sound isn't normal. Chase that down.
> 
> ...


By way less sag, how much sag are we talking here? Dougal suggested 250psi for my weight and I settled on 240psi just now. This puts me at about 20-21% sag.

How much sag are you running?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Juggafat said:


> By way less sag, how much sag are we talking here? Dougal suggested 250psi for my weight and I settled on 240psi just now. This puts me at about 20-21% sag.
> 
> How much sag are you running?


That sounds good to me. I wouldn't sweat the sag number too much. Use Dougal's frequency tuning approach to get the response / support feeling good and as long as small bump still feels good, send it. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## jlbanta (Apr 5, 2011)

Anyone have way more than 24 clicks of LSC on their shock? I have a total of 36 clicks. Manitou says you should have around 24. Is anything past 24 from max not useable?

By the way, the knob colors are backwards from Fox. I screwed up today and turned the blue knob thinking i was changing LSC. I couldn't figure out why it wasnt doing what I expected.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Juggafat said:


> By way less sag, how much sag are we talking here? Dougal suggested 250psi for my weight and I settled on 240psi just now. This puts me at about 20-21% sag.
> 
> How much sag are you running?


Ride height is the last step in tuning, not the first: http://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/wysiwyg/shockcraft_1_page_suspension_setup_guide_v0.pdf


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm looking at getting a 185x55 but the stroke on my bike needs to be 50mm, does anyone know if you can get a travel spacer to reduce the stroke by 5mm?


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## Hootbmx (Feb 20, 2012)

Loving the Mara Pro on my new Canfield Lithium build! Question though, how many of you are following the 50 hour service on this shock? For me that will be about once a month or 1.5 months which is excessive it seems. My other 2 bikes, I run coils on and have needed very little service over the last couple of years so not crazy about having to do a 50 hour service every 1 to 1.5 months!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Hootbmx said:


> Loving the Mara Pro on my new Canfield Lithium build! Question though, how many of you are following the 50 hour service on this shock? For me that will be about once a month or 1.5 months which is excessive it seems. My other 2 bikes, I run coils on and have needed very little service over the last couple of years so not crazy about having to do a 50 hour service every 1 to 1.5 months!


Actually Manitou and BOS shocks tend to easily Run a longer time than the prescribed 50 hours Intervall without any Problems


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Hootbmx said:


> Loving the Mara Pro on my new Canfield Lithium build! Question though, how many of you are following the 50 hour service on this shock? For me that will be about once a month or 1.5 months which is excessive it seems. My other 2 bikes, I run coils on and have needed very little service over the last couple of years so not crazy about having to do a 50 hour service every 1 to 1.5 months!


50 hour service is basically a clean and grease of the air-can. If you're losing air or got dirt past the wiper seal into the glide rings then put a seal kit through it.


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## jlbanta (Apr 5, 2011)

I have a wild idea to increase the negative spring volume on the Mara Pro King Can. I believe the red foam spacers "squish" after the main chamber is pressurized, but I think there would still be room to drill a hole at the bottom end of the air can to convert some of the positive volume to negative. I'm not sure how much these spacers squish, I would need to dis-assemble to find out if the seals would interfere with the new hole (in green per my photo below).

The only drawback I see is you'd loose the ability to slide the sleeve off to adjust volume spacers. You would have to remove the whole can to de-pressurize the negative air chamber. You also loose some positive volume, but most don't seem to need the full king can positive volume.

If this would work, what would it do to the air spring curve? Would it be worthwhile and would you need to make some damper adjustments to suit the new force curve?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jlbanta said:


> I have a wild idea to increase the negative spring volume on the Mara Pro King Can. I believe the red foam spacers "squish" after the main chamber is pressurized, but I think there would still be room to drill a hole at the bottom end of the air can to convert some of the positive volume to negative. I'm not sure how much these spacers squish, I would need to dis-assemble to find out if the seals would interfere with the new hole (in green per my photo below).
> 
> The only drawback I see is you'd loose the ability to slide the sleeve off to adjust volume spacers. You would have to remove the whole can to de-pressurize the negative air chamber. You also loose some positive volume, but most don't seem to need the full king can positive volume.
> 
> ...


Without a notch or valve to fill the negative you are just reducing negative pressure.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Yup, what Dougal said. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Hootbmx (Feb 20, 2012)

Dougal said:


> 50 hour service is basically a clean and grease of the air-can. If you're losing air or got dirt past the wiper seal into the glide rings then put a seal kit through it.


Easy enough then! I thought I would have to buy the seal kit every 50 hours.


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## jlbanta (Apr 5, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Without a notch or valve to fill the negative you are just reducing negative pressure.


Dang it, correct. More volume but less pressure = less negative spring forces. 
A small dimple would be a good idea, but placement would be critical.


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## Boissal (Aug 24, 2021)

jlbanta said:


> Anyone have way more than 24 clicks of LSC on their shock? I have a total of 36 clicks. Manitou says you should have around 24. Is anything past 24 from max not useable?
> 
> By the way, the knob colors are backwards from Fox. I screwed up today and turned the blue knob thinking i was changing LSC. I couldn't figure out why it wasnt doing what I expected.


I have 36 clicks as well on mine which is fairly annoying. I only go in series of 3 clicks when making adjustments and am treating things as if the adjustment range was 12 clicks total. For what it's worth I think the whole range is usable, not just the first 24 clicks from closed.

Unrelated and this may have already been answered but I can't find it: are the 190x40 and 190x45 shocks the same with an extra spacer inside? I need a 45mm stroke shock but it doesn't look like there's stock anywhere. The 40mm shows some availability. Pull a spacer, bleed the damper, call it good?


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## rtsideup (Mar 21, 2012)

Similar questions here; my frame wants a 185mm x 52.5mm trunnion mount shock. This is not a stock option from Manitou. What's involved in modifying the stock configurations to fit? Is there somewhere to buy a Mara Pro totally set up for my; stroke length, leverage ratio, ect.?
On a side note, where can I find the leverage ratio for my frame? Basic Goggle hasn't turned up any answers. 2019 Devinci Troy.


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

rtsideup said:


> Similar questions here; my frame wants a 185mm x 52.5mm trunnion mount shock. This is not a stock option from Manitou. What's involved in modifying the stock configurations to fit? Is there somewhere to buy a Mara Pro totally set up for my; stroke length, leverage ratio, ect.?
> On a side note, where can I find the leverage ratio for my frame? Basic Goggle hasn't turned up any answers. 2019 Devinci Troy.


Linkage Design look for it here...


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## Biggs427 (Dec 8, 2017)

rtsideup said:


> Similar questions here; my frame wants a 185mm x 52.5mm trunnion mount shock. This is not a stock option from Manitou. What's involved in modifying the stock configurations to fit? Is there somewhere to buy a Mara Pro totally set up for my; stroke length, leverage ratio, ect.?
> On a side note, where can I find the leverage ratio for my frame? Basic Goggle hasn't turned up any answers. 2019 Devinci Troy.


I know it is not exactly the same frame but I'm running a 185x55 Mara Pro on a small 2021 troy. (al frame) and it works great. 

I bought the Mara with the intention to de-stroke it to 52.5mm but I did test the shock and even with the it fully compressed there's plenty of clearance with a DHR2 2.4.

Thanks OrenPerets, I too was looking for these numbers


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## jlbanta (Apr 5, 2011)

Ok, last wild idea. Has anyone considered adding a counter measure spring like rockshox has used? Looking on McMaster, you could theoretically install a stacked wave spring that counters with 30-40 lbf at top out and would be active up to sag (~12mm). If you had time, I'm guessing you could find better online vendors with more options. My thought sparked from looking at at the force curve posted by CCS86 earlier in this thread., this may help to smooth out the steep part of the curve up til 20% travel. 

On the trail, I'm betting there would not be a huge difference, but its an interesting thought. I'm sure Mantiou would have included it if there was any performance benefit.


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

So any news on a coil yet?


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## ibis315 (Oct 17, 2005)

jlbanta said:


> Ok, last wild idea. Has anyone considered adding a counter measure spring like rockshox has used? Looking on McMaster, you could theoretically install a stacked wave spring that counters with 30-40 lbf at top out and would be active up to sag (~12mm). If you had time, I'm guessing you could find better online vendors with more options. My thought sparked from looking at at the force curve posted by CCS86 earlier in this thread., this may help to smooth out the steep part of the curve up til 20% travel.
> 
> On the trail, I'm betting there would not be a huge difference, but its an interesting thought. I'm sure Mantiou would have included it if there was any performance benefit.


Installed Rockshox counter measure spring in my McLeod. Works for me.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

ibis315 said:


> Installed Rockshox counter measure spring in my McLeod. Works for me.


Does anyone know where to Order those Kind of springs, perhaps in different strengths?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

They aren't strong enough to offset the loss of negative chamber pressure when you increase the chamber volume by removing the factory spacers. They are meant to be used in a self-equalizing shock.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## rtsideup (Mar 21, 2012)

Biggs427 said:


> I know it is not exactly the same frame but I'm running a 185x55 Mara Pro on a small 2021 troy. (al frame) and it works great.
> 
> I bought the Mara with the intention to de-stroke it to 52.5mm but I did test the shock and even with the it fully compressed there's plenty of clearance with a DHR2 2.4.
> 
> Thanks OrenPerets, I too was looking for these numbers


Great info thanks for posting this!
Thanks too to OrenPerets!


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

jlbanta said:


> Ok, last wild idea. Has anyone considered adding a counter measure spring like rockshox has used? Looking on McMaster, you could theoretically install a stacked wave spring that counters with 30-40 lbf at top out and would be active up to sag (~12mm). If you had time, I'm guessing you could find better online vendors with more options. My thought sparked from looking at at the force curve posted by CCS86 earlier in this thread., this may help to smooth out the steep part of the curve up til 20% travel.
> 
> On the trail, I'm betting there would not be a huge difference, but its an interesting thought. I'm sure Mantiou would have included it if there was any performance benefit.


Yep. Went through it earlier in the thread, doesn’t work. Can mail the one in my parts box if you want.


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## n1cholasj (Nov 23, 2017)

I have a couple questions about the suitability of this shock for me at ~200lbs, maybe 206-210 ready to ride. It would be going on a stumpy evo with a cascade link (LR 3.4-3.5 if I recall correctly). 

Am I going to be in the black hole of losing sensitivity of going high enough PSI for mid stroke support, or going for sensitivity and having the shock wallow on me?

My alternative is having my Mrp hazzard converted to an eHazzard, and using a sprindex spring. I have a tuner who is local to me who could custom tune the damper as well.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

n1cholasj said:


> I have a couple questions about the suitability of this shock for me at ~200lbs, maybe 206-210 ready to ride. It would be going on a stumpy evo with a cascade link (LR 3.4-3.5 if I recall correctly).
> 
> Am I going to be in the black hole of losing sensitivity of going high enough PSI for mid stroke support, or going for sensitivity and having the shock wallow on me?
> 
> My alternative is having my Mrp hazzard converted to an eHazzard, and using a sprindex spring. I have a tuner who is local to me who could custom tune the damper as well.


I think that's a bad combo of bike, linkage and rider weight. For any shock.


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## miles of pain (Sep 11, 2009)

My mara pro is pushing a bit of slick honey out into the stanchion each ride. Normal, or do I need a new wiper seal?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

miles of pain said:


> My mara pro is pushing a bit of slick honey out into the stanchion each ride. Normal, or do I need a new wiper seal?


That's normal, the wiper keeps stuff out rather than in. If your negative air is leaking you may need a new quad-ring. The shock will go firm off the top if that happens.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

How hard is it to swap the reservoir to a short one? Just tried to install on my sons Sentinel and need about 10mm more clearance at bottom out. It looks like let the pressure out of the Ifp, swap, set the ifp height, bleed and go.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cary said:


> How hard is it to swap the reservoir to a short one? Just tried to install on my sons Sentinel and need about 10mm more clearance at bottom out. It looks like let the pressure out of the Ifp, swap, set the ifp height, bleed and go.


Real easy, unscrew the piggy-back, swap the IFP and end-cap, screw back on and rebleed.


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## jb0000 (Mar 30, 2021)

Finally got the shock back together with a good bleed and had a ride. I can report that the rebound needle clicking noise is resolved by shimming it 3mm.

Two concerns however:

The HSR feels pretty slow now despite removing the 16mm shim from the stack (mine was 0.3mm thick, and I'm a light rider). Was I meant to keep the stack height the same?

The shock makes a slurping sound on rebound but is otherwise dead silent on compression. Is it because of the 2.5W Motorex oil I used? I remember it being much quieter with the stock oil.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jb0000 said:


> Finally got the shock back together with a good bleed and had a ride. I can report that the rebound needle clicking noise is resolved by shimming it 3mm.
> 
> Two concerns however:
> 
> ...


Stack height doesn't matter to the 0.3mm degree. There is the rebound check valve that needs to line up with the ports in the shaft to operate correctly.
With the softer rebound stack you will have more oil noise through the shims and piston.
If you've shimmed the needle too far you'll restrict oil flow through the needle bleed as you have more spring coils behind the LSR ports. The needle spring goes in closed end up and open end into the shaft first for the same reason.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Interested on this shock. Would this shock be comparable to float x or a float x2?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## SB666 (Aug 12, 2014)

jacksonlui said:


> Interested on this shock. Would this shock be comparable to float x or a float x2?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


I would compare it closer to the X2 as far as feel... tends to sit a little deeper in the travel, though still feels very supportive to me. Plows way better than a Float X


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## rtsideup (Mar 21, 2012)

I've hovered over the buy button on this shock so many times but, the negative reviews re. the fixed pressure of the neg chamber have always made me abort.
Unlike a fork, the specifics of a shock make resale much more challenging if I don't get along with it.
Hopefully Manitou will come up with a work-around/redesign for what seems to be an otherwise excellent shock.


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

I think she's blown boys. Just recently bled it and puked out all the oil.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rtsideup said:


> I've hovered over the buy button on this shock so many times but, the negative reviews re. the fixed pressure of the neg chamber have always made me abort.
> Unlike a fork, the specifics of a shock make resale much more challenging if I don't get along with it.
> Hopefully Manitou will come up with a work-around/redesign for what seems to be an otherwise excellent shock.


Most reviewers don't even know what a negative spring is, let alone how it works. Like our EXT friend here.



Juggafat said:


> I think she's blown boys. Just recently bled it and puked out all the oil.


That's a lot of oil. Like all of it. Did the bleed screw come out?


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## n1cholasj (Nov 23, 2017)

Dougal said:


> I think that's a bad combo of bike, linkage and rider weight. For any shock.


🤷‍♂️

Based on everything I've been reading so far, I'm not at the extreme end of the bell curve of rider weight on a stumpy evo. Should I interpret this as you steering me away from this, even if there are some heavier than I riding the same bike with a mara pro?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

n1cholasj said:


> 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Based on everything I've been reading so far, I'm not at the extreme end of the bell curve of rider weight on a stumpy evo. Should I interpret this as you steering me away from this, even if there are some heavier than I riding the same bike with a mara pro?


The Mara Pro is a pretty tough shock. I've not seen any failures caused by bike frames yet.
But I really hate the combination of high leverage, offset shock and yoke all on the same bike.


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

Dougal said:


> That's a lot of oil. Like all of it. Did the bleed screw come out?


Nope. I just bled it and checked that the bleed screw was tight. I honestly have no idea where it's coming from. Was better for me to make it down the mountain to actually look haha.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

rtsideup said:


> I've hovered over the buy button on this shock so many times but, the negative reviews re. the fixed pressure of the neg chamber have always made me abort.


I'm not convinced most bike reviewers could differentiate between what the negative spring is doing and isolate that as their issue. I'd wager for most if you said nothing at all they'd never know the difference. Some are better than others, though.

That said, it's kept me from getting it also, despite wanting to try it. Not because the pressure is fixed, but because we have such wild temp swings here during certain seasons. It can be 30 one day and 65 the next, having to reset it constantly is just too much of a chore.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Adodero said:


> I'm not convinced most bike reviewers could differentiate between what the negative spring is doing and isolate that as their issue. I'd wager for most if you said nothing at all they'd never know the difference. Some are better than others, though.
> 
> That said, it's kept me from getting it also, despite wanting to try it. Not because the pressure is fixed, but because we have such wild temp swings here during certain seasons. It can be 30 one day and 65 the next, having to reset it constantly is just too much of a chore.


You really don't have to reset it that often. Do it while it is cold, or using a freezer and leave it alone. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Adodero said:


> I'm not convinced most bike reviewers could differentiate between what the negative spring is doing and isolate that as their issue. I'd wager for most if you said nothing at all they'd never know the difference. Some are better than others, though.
> 
> That said, it's kept me from getting it also, despite wanting to try it. Not because the pressure is fixed, but because we have such wild temp swings here during certain seasons. It can be 30 one day and 65 the next, having to reset it constantly is just too much of a chore.


You don't reset negative air for temperature. You reset it every 3-6 months (depending on riding) due to air migrating out.


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## eeyore2012 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dougal said:


> You don't reset negative air for temperature. You reset it every 3-6 months (depending on riding) due to air migrating out.



When you reset it, or pull of the air can off for any reason, as your screwing it back on, how much do you compress the shock? bottomed out? just some to ease threading it back on?


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

eeyore2012 said:


> When you reset it, or pull of the air can off for any reason, as your screwing it back on, how much do you compress the shock? bottomed out? just some to ease threading it back on?



Doesn't matter, as long as both the seals are engaged. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

eeyore2012 said:


> When you reset it, or pull of the air can off for any reason, as your screwing it back on, how much do you compress the shock? bottomed out? just some to ease threading it back on?


Whatever is necesssary to engage the threads. It makes no difference to how much air is trapped.


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

Dougal said:


> That's a lot of oil. Like all of it. Did the bleed screw come out?


If the shock squirts out foamed up, aerated oil when releasing pressure, where is that oil coming from?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Juggafat said:


> If the shock squirts out foamed up, aerated oil when releasing pressure, where is that oil coming from?


Shocks ingest air through the main shaft seal and this foams up the oil. You can increase IFP pressure to reduce the rate it happens and change your damper shaft seal if it's still happening fast. It's always going to be one of the main reasons air shocks need serviced.

As for where it's coming from. If it's in the air-can then you have a damaged/leaking main shaft seal or shaft to cap seals.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

I See theadvantage of a fixed negative chamber. But manitou could rather add a second valve For it or make a Bypass in the outside which can be opened and closed manually as on the INTEND.

If WE could adjust the pressure at a similar Level as in the Main chamber that would be Killer. I do Not understand why manitou does Not do IT when there are solutions when so many reviewers and customers make so much pressure Over so many years referring to their Air shocks


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

bansaiman said:


> I See theadvantage of a fixed negative chamber. But manitou could rather add a second valve For it or make a Bypass in the outside which can be opened and closed manually as on the INTEND.
> 
> If WE could adjust the pressure at a similar Level as in the Main chamber that would be Killer. I do Not understand why manitou does Not do IT when there are solutions when so many reviewers and customers make so much pressure Over so many years referring to their Air shocks


Maybe because it isn’t really an issue. 210 pounds, run multiple McLeods and Maras, they work well as is.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Dougal said:


> You don't reset negative air for temperature. You reset it every 3-6 months (depending on riding) due to air migrating out.


Wouldn't the pressure captured in the negative change with the outside air temp? I've seen some pretty wild variations in pressure based on outside temps here, so I figured it'd be an issue. 

I also realize I can capture it while it's cold, but then I have the opposite problem, when it heats up to 60-70 degrees the pressure increases.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Adodero said:


> Wouldn't the pressure captured in the negative change with the outside air temp? I've seen some pretty wild variations in pressure based on outside temps here, so I figured it'd be an issue.
> 
> I also realize I can capture it while it's cold, but then I have the opposite problem, when it heats up to 60-70 degrees the pressure increases.


Any pressure you gain from the temp increasing is roughly proportional between the main and negative, so it's really not an issue. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

CCS86 said:


> Any pressure you gain from the temp increasing is roughly proportional between the main and negative, so it's really not an issue.


I usually check fork/shock pressure in the parking lot before rides during times of the year where there is a lot of variation, which is why I was concerned about it.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

Adodero said:


> I usually check fork/shock pressure in the parking lot before rides during times of the year where there is a lot of variation, which is why I was concerned about it.


How much of a pressure increase are you seeing in your main chamber? 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Adodero said:


> Wouldn't the pressure captured in the negative change with the outside air temp? I've seen some pretty wild variations in pressure based on outside temps here, so I figured it'd be an issue.
> 
> I also realize I can capture it while it's cold, but then I have the opposite problem, when it heats up to 60-70 degrees the pressure increases.


Yes it'll change by a few percent. You'll never notice. Same with your tyres.


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## rtsideup (Mar 21, 2012)

Cary said:


> Maybe because it isn’t really an issue. 210 pounds, run multiple McLeods and Maras, they work well as is.


I'm sure that you are correct and, I'm sure that at some point I'll have one hanging on my bike, however. I would think that it becomes an issue for Manitou when potential customers read the negative reviews and decide to look elsewhere.
I bought a Mezzer, sight unseen, largely due to the glowing reviews. If the MP reviewed similarly, Manitou would already have my money. I'd bet that I'm not the only one.


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## CCS86 (Jan 6, 2020)

rtsideup said:


> I'm sure that you are correct and, I'm sure that at some point I'll have one hanging on my bike, however. I would think that it becomes an issue for Manitou when potential customers read the negative reviews and decide to look elsewhere.
> I bought a Mezzer, sight unseen, largely due to the glowing reviews. If the MP reviewed similarly, Manitou would already have my money. I'd bet that I'm not the only one.


You can trust the magazine reviewers, who might have sub-par setup skills or other motivations, or you can trust the huge number of actual users who bought the shock with hard earned money and love it. Your choice. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## rtsideup (Mar 21, 2012)

I like to get my news, and reviews, from multiple sources so that I can make an informed decision.
The top three choices for reviews in the MTB world that I trust are; MTBR, Blister, and Pinkbike.
With the MP; MTBR seems to say 80/20, buy it. Blister and Pinkbike seem more like 50/50. This leaves me on the fence. My current shock isn't broken, I'm just looking to eek out some more performance. So for me, I'll stay on the fence and see if Manitou is listening.

On a side note. On my lunch break I could go out and test all offerings from Fox and Rockshox, back to back. With Manitou, I've only seen another Mezzer from a distance, MP never. Unless I'm an outlier, most people are buying Manitou products based mostly on internet reviews.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

CCS86 said:


> How much of a pressure increase are you seeing in your main chamber?


I'll test it and see, I've been running coils for a little over a year now and don't recall what the difference was the last time I measured.



rtsideup said:


> With Manitou, I've only seen another Mezzer from a distance, MP never. Unless I'm an outlier, most people are buying Manitou products based mostly on internet reviews.


I feel like people are more hesitant to try new products because of reviews, they read publications like Pinkbike and give way too much credit to reviewers that either lack an understanding of how it works, don't give it enough time to set it up, or have what CCS86 called "other motivations". They read a glowing, detailed review of the latest Fox or RS product, then a review that barely skims the surface of another "off brand" (words of a shop employee about my Mezzer) and assume there is no reason to upgrade or branch out. I live in a major destination and I rarely see people trying new suspension components, tires, brakes, etc from what they consider "off brands". The only people I've known personally that gave it a shot were people that had the chance to ride one and liked it, but many act like you've asked them to extract their teeth one by one using a toothpick even implying that there are other options. They see RS and Fox as a known quantity, even if it isn't as good, and reviewers often reinforce this, only to contradict themselves when the next iteration comes out (GRIP2 for instance).

I think if reviews were more objective and reviewers gave equal time to various products to let them stand on their own, you'd see more variation in the components people use. I feel like reading Mezzer reviews, you really have to read between the lines of most reviews to get a feel for how much better it is than the alternatives and most people aren't willing to do that in my experience. Their bias towards market share / stock components is reinforced by reviewers with similar biases, and not overcome by reviews on things like the Mezzer because they fail to adequately explain the product and why it's better / set it up properly / give it time / etc.

I think it's more complicated with the Mara also because the reservoir is so large, it just doesn't fit on some bikes even with the shorter reservoir. In fact, the bike I have now is the first one I've had that it would fit in.


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## jb0000 (Mar 30, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Stack height doesn't matter to the 0.3mm degree. There is the rebound check valve that needs to line up with the ports in the shaft to operate correctly.
> With the softer rebound stack you will have more oil noise through the shims and piston.
> If you've shimmed the needle too far you'll restrict oil flow through the needle bleed as you have more spring coils behind the LSR ports. The needle spring goes in closed end up and open end into the shaft first for the same reason.


After riding for a while, it seems I just had to get used to how the digressive rebound feels. It's very controlled but at the same time very poppy off jumps. And the shock is honestly phenomenal. 20% sag, 30 psi in the rear tire for my 70kg, LSC closed, gets me all the small and big bump eating capability one could want. Also, I haven't had any mid ride back pain since switching to this shock, it's the real deal!

A tip for people running into spring-rate issues here: set by feel and correct the geometry with offset bushings if possible.

Now I just wish my Mezzer had the same digressive rebound, it would be perfect. Perhaps there's a quick reshuffle I could do to my MY21 stack while waiting for your new mid valve?


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## jb0000 (Mar 30, 2021)

-


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jb0000 said:


> Now I just wish my Mezzer had the same digressive rebound, it would be perfect. Perhaps there's a quick reshuffle I could do to my MY21 stack while waiting for your new mid valve?


I'm working on it.


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## Pedro46 (Apr 12, 2017)

Hi,
I have an Evil calling size medium ,
does anyone know or has experience if the Manitou Mara PRO shock will fit my frame or is the resovoir bottle to long which then may foul the frame ?
Thanks


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

rtsideup said:


> I like to get my news, and reviews, from multiple sources so that I can make an informed decision.
> The top three choices for reviews in the MTB world that I trust are; MTBR, Blister, and Pinkbike.
> With the MP; MTBR seems to say 80/20, buy it. Blister and Pinkbike seem more like 50/50. This leaves me on the fence. My current shock isn't broken, I'm just looking to eek out some more performance. So for me, I'll stay on the fence and see if Manitou is listening.
> 
> On a side note. On my lunch break I could go out and test all offerings from Fox and Rockshox, back to back. With Manitou, I've only seen another Mezzer from a distance, MP never. Unless I'm an outlier, most people are buying Manitou products based mostly on internet reviews.


I’ve owned four Mara Pros, I just bought my fifth Mara Pro for a Zerode Taniwha Trail 👍

Truthfully, I think most reviews are shite, I trust few people when it comes to bike advice, the ones I trust only gained my trust by expressing opinions that match my experience.

So the first thing you gotta do as a consumer is put your money where your mouth is; buy the shock or don’t buy the shock, but until you’ve ridden a Mara Pro, your thoughts are … not worth consider.

I don’t remember why I bought my first Mara Pro, though I suspect it had something to do with advice I received from Dougal.

As to Manitou, they don’t care about reviews or plebes posting comments on social media, but I suspect they listen to Dougal 🤙


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## rtsideup (Mar 21, 2012)

Sanchofula said:


> I’ve owned four Mara Pros, I just bought my fifth Mara Pro for a Zerode Taniwha Trail 👍
> 
> Truthfully, I think most reviews are shite, I trust few people when it comes to bike advice, the ones I trust only gained my trust by expressing opinions that match my experience.
> 
> ...


I lost respect for your reviews 15yrs ago when you were waxing on about tele bindings.


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## eeyore2012 (Feb 5, 2009)

So Id wager this common knowledge to you guys who are mechanically inclined, but since thats not really me (I can follow directions really well, but intuiting mechanical things isnt really in my skill set), I have to ask. ... I did an air can reset and I just wanted to check how well everything was greased on my new Mara Pro. and while I was unscrewing the air can I didnt notice the shock body (not sure if thats the right term) was turning with the air can. maybe 3 or 4 revolutions. I turned it back some, but prob not what it was. so I guess the question is: is that a big deal, does that spin freely, or does it actually tighten up or loosen? 

and also concerning the 50 hour service, is anybody just inspecting, cleaning and re-greasing, or it is a better idea to just do air can seals and king can seals as recommended in the Hayes 50 hr service guide? happy to do either really, altho $40-50 every 50 hrs for seals seems a bit much

thanks!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

eeyore2012 said:


> So Id wager this common knowledge to you guys who are mechanically inclined, but since thats not really me (I can follow directions really well, but intuiting mechanical things isnt really in my skill set), I have to ask. ... I did an air can reset and I just wanted to check how well everything was greased on my new Mara Pro. and while I was unscrewing the air can I didnt notice the shock body (not sure if thats the right term) was turning with the air can. maybe 3 or 4 revolutions. I turned it back some, but prob not what it was. so I guess the question is: is that a big deal, does that spin freely, or does it actually tighten up or loosen?
> 
> and also concerning the 50 hour service, is anybody just inspecting, cleaning and re-greasing, or it is a better idea to just do air can seals and king can seals as recommended in the Hayes 50 hr service guide? happy to do either really, altho $40-50 every 50 hrs for seals seems a bit much
> 
> thanks!


Shock body rotates freely. No problem.

Do an air-can clean, inspect and grease. If it's contaminated with dirt or leaking down then put a seal-kit through it.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

rtsideup said:


> I lost respect for your reviews 15yrs ago when you were waxing on about tele bindings.


… and don’t even know who you are, so just imagine how much I give a shite about your opinion 🤣


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

I just got my mara pro back from service from hayes. Pretty stoked about it although it's just non-stop torrential downpour here in the pacific northwest.

Also being coil curious, I snagged a Fox DHX to try out too. Again, why do all the upgrades happen end of season?


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## Austin-nc (Apr 18, 2018)

Can anyone compare the Mara Pro to the Float X2? Looking to try something different than the Float X on my stumpjumper evo with cascade link.
180lbs


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Austin-nc said:


> Can anyone compare the Mara Pro to the Float X2? Looking to try something different than the Float X on my stumpjumper evo with cascade link.
> 180lbs


Yeah the Mara Pro is more reliable, has adjusters that work properly and can be fully serviced at home.

The Mara Pro only comes stock in one tune. Fox have a whole rack of tunes for the X2's but most of them are really weird and it's virtually impossible to setup HSR/LSR correctly without a dyno. That's a real dyno, not a hand powered shock tester.


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## Austin-nc (Apr 18, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Yeah the Mara Pro is more reliable, has adjusters that work properly and can be fully serviced at home.
> 
> The Mara Pro only comes stock in one tune. Fox have a whole rack of tunes for the X2's but most of them are really weird and it's virtually impossible to setup HSR/LSR correctly without a dyno. That's a real dyno, not a hand powered shock tester.


Yeah, I have certainly been leaning towards the Mara Pro, as the Manitou guru what are your thoughts on it for a Stumpjumper EVO with a cascade link? Fox Float X just feels pretty lack luster.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Austin-nc said:


> Yeah, I have certainly been leaning towards the Mara Pro, as the Manitou guru what are your thoughts on it for a Stumpjumper EVO with a cascade link? Fox Float X just feels pretty lack luster.
> View attachment 2009079


How heavy are you? The SJ is already high leverage, the Cascade link makes it even more so.
It could work for a customer under maybe 85kg. Beyond that your air pressures are going to be really high.

I've got heavy customer with a Mara Pro on the Turbo Levo. He's loving it at max pressure.......


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## Austin-nc (Apr 18, 2018)

Dougal said:


> How heavy are you? The SJ is already high leverage, the Cascade link makes it even more so.
> It could work for a customer under maybe 85kg. Beyond that your air pressures are going to be really high.
> 
> I've got heavy customer with a Mara Pro on the Turbo Levo. He's loving it at max pressure.......


I am usually around 83kg, I am not against trying it with the stock link as well. With the Float X especially with stock link it was like it was either riding just off sag or blowing through the travel running volume spacers helped a bit but just made it feel like it was blowing through to a closer but softer wall. It would also be cool to play with the valving a bit on the Mara and make the "work" circuit something I can use for when im just riding local XC stuff vs bike park and enduro trail type riding.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Austin-nc said:


> I am usually around 83kg, I am not against trying it with the stock link as well. With the Float X especially with stock link it was like it was either riding just off sag or blowing through the travel running volume spacers helped a bit but just made it feel like it was blowing through to a closer but softer wall. It would also be cool to play with the valving a bit on the Mara and make the "work" circuit something I can use for when im just riding local XC stuff vs bike park and enduro trail type riding.


I should have known the answer to this like 18 months ago. But @Mudguard is still waiting for his Evo to arrive...........


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Dougal said:


> I should have known the answer to this like 18 months ago. But @Mudguard is still waiting for his Evo to arrive...........


Ha. Exactly twelve months now. And there new colour ways on the website now 😭


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## Austin-nc (Apr 18, 2018)

Dougal said:


> I should have known the answer to this like 18 months ago. But @Mudguard is still waiting for his Evo to arrive...........


I would be more than happy to do some testing on my EVO alloy if you get a mara pro in the post to me 😄. 
Really thinking on giving one a try, especially since this bike feels so good with the ZEB on the front it just makes the rear feel so lacking.
@Mudguard what are you waiting on, a warranty replacement or a bike you ordered? Seems to be more than enough in stock atleast here in the states.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Austin-nc said:


> @Mudguard what are you waiting on, a warranty replacement or a bike you ordered? Seems to be more than enough in stock atleast here in the states.


Just waiting on a new bike. I can't actually remembered when I ordered it to be honest but it's at least a year. S3 Alloy Comp in Raspberry. They've had a few of the other colour and sizes in. Welcome to the end of the supply chain!


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## Austin-nc (Apr 18, 2018)

Mudguard said:


> Just waiting on a new bike. I can't actually remembered when I ordered it to be honest but it's at least a year. S3 Alloy Comp in Raspberry. They've had a few of the other colour and sizes in. Welcome to the end of the supply chain!


Well hopefully you get it soon, good choice on the alloy, heard quite a few issues with the carbon downtubes.


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## pedronicman (Jun 9, 2020)

Hi does anyone know if a Mara pro will fit an Evil calling ?
not sure if the reservoir bottle will foul the frame , size is a medium frame
with a 185 x 50mm trunnion shock fitting 
thanks


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## MHaager2 (2 mo ago)

Has anyone here fitted a Mara pro to a Forbidden Druid 210x55? Will it fit? I’m looking at potentially upgrading the DPX2 and I am looking at the Topaz, the new MY23 RS Super ultimate deluxe, or the Mara Pro. I’m 73 kg, moderately aggressive, prefer natural technical rough terrain to big air, and like my bike to be very versatile. Most of my riding is very rapid gradient changes, up, and down, with steep but very short (40-50m maximum elevation change) climbs with rooty, and ledgy tech climbs where I value traction the most. Wondering if the Mara Pro would be a good fit, or if the other options might be better? Thanks


pedronicman said:


> Hi does anyone know if a Mara pro will fit an Evil calling ?
> not sure if the reservoir bottle will foul the frame , size is a medium frame
> with a 185 x 50mm trunnion shock fitting
> thanks


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MHaager2 said:


> Has anyone here fitted a Mara pro to a Forbidden Druid 210x55? Will it fit? I’m looking at potentially upgrading the DPX2 and I am looking at the Topaz, the new MY23 RS Super ultimate deluxe, or the Mara Pro. I’m 73 kg, moderately aggressive, prefer natural technical rough terrain to big air, and like my bike to be very versatile. Most of my riding is very rapid gradient changes, up, and down, with steep but very short (40-50m maximum elevation change) climbs with rooty, and ledgy tech climbs where I value traction the most. Wondering if the Mara Pro would be a good fit, or if the other options might be better? Thanks


One of my customers had a Forbidden Druid with one. Fit fine.

He's since sold the frame and still has the shock. If you want a lightly used one from the other side of the world let me know.


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## kamper11 (Feb 8, 2008)

Hey Folks/experts. Been reading thru pages but the real question I have is this.

Im on the latest iteration/V2 Alchemy Arktos. Came w a X2 on the 150 rear travel build. 135 comes w Float X. X2 for me has just been a real overall puzzle. It just doesn't seem to get it right, and I've used bracketing for my tuning. FWIW - Im real decent right now, but still feel like the shock is letting me down. Same w the Float X at the 135 travel. Decent and not great.

RE the Mara Pro vs Inline - Keen to grab one of these and try it on mob Arktos. Im about 150lbs riding weight. Riding very tech/janky trails but limited "sustained" dh and big hits. The Arktos uses Earle's Sine suspension. Not coil compatible. Great bike for me and IMO a very overlooked boutique brand in the US. Just think a better shock would allow me to get a better overall ride and rear suspension feel. with then current deals out there via Manitou direct, seems a no brainer for either.

Any thoughts on a Pro vs Inline?


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

kamper11 said:


> Hey Folks/experts. Been reading thru pages but the real question I have is this.
> 
> Im on the latest iteration/V2 Alchemy Arktos. Came w a X2 on the 150 rear travel build. 135 comes w Float X. X2 for me has just been a real overall puzzle. It just doesn't seem to get it right, and I've used bracketing for my tuning. FWIW - Im real decent right now, but still feel like the shock is letting me down. Same w the Float X at the 135 travel. Decent and not great.
> 
> ...


The Mara Pro is a great air shock. I’ve never ridden the inline version, but based on the sales prices, I would personally go with the Pro. Buy the Inline, you’ll wonder how much better the Pro would have been. Buy the Pro for slightly less than the full price Inline cost and you won’t wonder what would have been on every ride.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Austin-nc said:


> Can anyone compare the Mara Pro to the Float X2? Looking to try something different than the Float X on my stumpjumper evo with cascade link.
> 180lbs


I use the Mara Pro on a SJEVO with Cascade in Austin, and it's amazing, if just a hair saggy in the midrange (worse with the stock link).

I weigh 86 kgs and run 2 volume reducers with the can already reduced in half at 170psi.


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## kamper11 (Feb 8, 2008)

bam - you think like I do @Moosedriver - done!


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## G60Dub (Mar 24, 2021)

Anyone know if the Mara Pro fits a Canyon Spectral (CFR) 2022 model?


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Going to try again...anybody running a Mara (inine) on Trance 29er (2018-2020 model), 165x42.5 (45)?

Can't get the DPS to work like I like it, either soft or can't get travel, tried volume spacers in different combos to no avail. Weight 70-75kg.

Option 1 sell the frame, option 2 get the Mara.
Anybody able to give me a nudge to option 2 with their experience?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

So do I need to send my Mara Pro somewhere for a full rebuild occasionally?

I'm still a bit interested in revalving myself but don't know where to start. 

My HSC is backed all of the way out but feels perfect. 

My LSC is cranked all of the way in and I've taken to turning the Party/ Work switch to add a bit more. I wish the LSC knob had more range. 

My Rebound is cranked all of the way in to slow rebound down, and needs another click, or 2.

To be clear, it's still the best feeling shock I've ever ridden on a mtb.

Any suggestions?


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## Juggafat (Sep 27, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> So do I need to send my Mara Pro somewhere for a full rebuild occasionally?
> 
> I'm still a bit interested in revalving myself but don't know where to start.
> 
> ...


I recently had mine done by Manitou. $150


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## tezzyrecords (Aug 2, 2020)

@Dougal: Would you be so kind to help me out one more time? Ever since I bought my Mara Pro second hand it has a defect backup ring in the outer chamber. I wrote emails to distributors and customer support and they don‘t even know what a backup ring is. But just recently I stumbled across a outer chamber seal kit for the mcLeod king can which includes the flimsy white backup Ring. Is there a chance that it is compatible with the Mara Pro king can?
Thank you in advance!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tezzyrecords said:


> @Dougal: Would you be so kind to help me out one more time? Ever since I bought my Mara Pro second hand it has a defect backup ring in the outer chamber. I wrote emails to distributors and customer support and they don‘t even know what a backup ring is. But just recently I stumbled across a outer chamber seal kit for the mcLeod king can which includes the flimsy white backup Ring. Is there a chance that it is compatible with the Mara Pro king can?
> Thank you in advance!


There is a diameter difference but it might not matter. In the past I've put two o-rings in that groove instead of using a backup ring and that worked fine.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I’ve run a Mara Pro on GG bikes (Pistola, Shred, Mega), Canfield bikes (Tilt, Lithium), and a Zerode Taniwha Trail.

In every case it was easy to tune and always felt better than the other end … it’s tough to find a fork that’s as good as the Mara Pro.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Is there any way to put a remote lock out on a Mara Pro?

If not, can anyone recommend a reservoir shock that offers this feature?

Love the shock but have become really addicted to locking out my shock for most climbs, which is constant around her, like 40x/ ride. My bike is just so much more crisp and reactive on the pedals when it's locked out. The geo is notably better as well. 

The first shock that auto locks out (no fork!) on climbs gets my money, irregardless of it's other traits.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Is there any way to put a remote lock out on a Mara Pro?
> 
> If not, can anyone recommend a reservoir shock that offers this feature?
> 
> ...


Lapierre tried implementing an intelligent auto RS system years ago :https://gizmodo.com/hello-smart-bike-hands-on-with-lapierres-intelligent-973800903


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## tezzyrecords (Aug 2, 2020)

Dougal said:


> There is a diameter difference but it might not matter. In the past I've put two o-rings in that groove instead of using a backup ring and that worked fine.


Thank you. That's a good idea.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> Is there any way to put a remote lock out on a Mara Pro?
> 
> If not, can anyone recommend a reservoir shock that offers this feature?
> 
> ...


Fox had that feature, they called it Pro Pedal.

So you have your LSC maxed and HSC minimized? And you lock out your shock 40x per ride?

I’d say you either really don’t like any movement in your suspension, which would better managed by increasing pressure or getting a hardtail , or your shock is messed up.

I haven’t seen the need for a shock or fork lockout in years, suspension designs are so good. I can’t remember the last time I locked out my suspension.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

My suspension front and rear are very plush and controlled. Unfortunately, I'm just a much faster climber, and therefore much faster overall, when my shock is locked out. As a result, I leave the Work/ Party mode about 1/3 of the way towards Work mode for everything except lift assisted where I open it all the way up. And any climb more than about 1 minute in length I just move the climb switch all of the way to the Work mode. Recently I've become much more adept at flipping the switch while moving. These compromises result in the fastest overall times for me. It would be adequate to have a manual switch on the bars, like the new Scott Genius ST incorporates.

Patiently awaiting a wireless or full auto lockout shock. My SJEvo just pedals so much better when locked out.

I called Cane Creek this morning and they didn't at all say they have anything of the sort coming, just that the guy I spoke with acknowledged the need and that they have lots of new product being released in the Spring.

I emailed Manitou and they stated, 'nothing that I can speak of' on this topic.


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Patiently awaiting a wireless or full auto lockout shock. My SJEvo just pedals so much better when locked out.
> 
> I called Cane Creek this morning and they didn't at all say they have anything of the sort coming, just that the guy I spoke with acknowledged the need and that they have lots of new product being released in the Spring.



Isn't that what the Rockshox Flight Attendant thingy is? I wasn't interested, so just skimmed all the launch articles. But I thought it was tied into AXS for manual control, or could act predictively as well as you stood up to mash.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The Flight Attendant and the other system from Fox don't really work the same as they add a lot of complexity trying to quickly make adjustments and they also stiffen the fork which is counterproductive to the steep riding I do.

I don't need that stupidity. I'm always faster when climbing or even on the flats with a locked shock, doesn't matter how rough it is. I'm always faster when descending unlocked. Therefore, the solution is simple.

A shock should just have an angle sensor built in that you get to set through a phone app. I'd make mine lock out on any terrain with a slight incline and up, and open when pointed down. easy peazy.

Anyways, I got ahold of Fox and they told me they are pretty sure they can retrofit a remote to the stock DPX2 that came on my SJ EVO. They asked me to send them the serial number and they'd let me know.

If so, I'm doing it for certain.

The valving on the Mara Pro is flat superior to anything else I've ridden. But when you are talking about a pedal bike, pedal energy and also pedal clearance take priority over actual rear shock valving performance.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> The Flight Attendant and the other system from Fox don't really work the same as they add a lot of complexity trying to quickly make adjustments and they also stiffen the fork which is counterproductive to the steep riding I do.
> 
> I don't need that stupidity. I'm always faster when climbing or even on the flats with a locked shock, doesn't matter how rough it is. I'm always faster when descending unlocked. Therefore, the solution is simple.
> 
> ...


What's the bike?


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Dougal said:


> What's the bike?


He said Stumpjumper Evo


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Dougal said:


> What's the bike?


Frankly I was hoping you'd pipe in with a better solution.

Honestly the thought of all those cables and levers kind of bums me out.

Maybe I'll just keep reaching down until technology catches up as I've gotten much better at it.

Fox has this little lever and a kit they can retrofit that does require a full rebuild. It's not a cheap or temporary experiement.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Frankly I was hoping you'd pipe in with a better solution.
> 
> Honestly the thought of all those cables and levers kind of bums me out.
> 
> ...


I've got solutions, they're just involved. My Mara Pro is the best shock I've ridden but it's got a lot going on that I can't tell you about. There's plenty of stuff I could tell you about if I could get those mods/changes/tuning ready for release. But the list is long and Christmas is coming! Again!

The first step for me on any tune or modification is calculating out how much spring and damping the rider needs. Once that's known it's easy to include or eliminate a whole lot of options.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The manner in which the Mara Pro absorbs the terrain, is phenomenal. 
However I'm beginning to feel that this comes at the expense of too much needed midrange pedaling support costing more climbing performance than the offsetting descending gains. 
It needs a 'ledge' that's hard to push through at about 28% shaft travel. 
Well what it really needs is an auto lock out feature based on terrain but we don't have that yet.


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

Suns_PSD said:


> The manner in which the Mara Pro absorbs the terrain, is phenomenal.
> However I'm beginning to feel that this comes at the expense of too much needed midrange pedaling support costing more climbing performance than the offsetting descending gains.
> It needs a 'ledge' that's hard to push through at about 28% shaft travel.
> Well what it really needs is an auto lock out feature based on terrain but we don't have that yet.


You mean like the old Specialized system? Where a cable ran from the shock and down the chain stays to the little floating piston mounted way in the back? JK. I can't remember the name, but I briefly owned one of those bikes. Was not impressed. I am impressed with the Mara Pro tho. Own f'n four of them.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> The manner in which the Mara Pro absorbs the terrain, is phenomenal.
> However I'm beginning to feel that this comes at the expense of too much needed midrange pedaling support costing more climbing performance than the offsetting descending gains.
> It needs a 'ledge' that's hard to push through at about 28% shaft travel.
> Well what it really needs is an auto lock out feature based on terrain but we don't have that yet.


I mentioned earlier the Lapierre Rockshox ei did just as you describe (Or was supposed to). Have a read: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/ei-and-RockShox-Show-Electronic-Shock-2012.html


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> The manner in which the Mara Pro absorbs the terrain, is phenomenal.
> However I'm beginning to feel that this comes at the expense of too much needed midrange pedaling support costing more climbing performance than the offsetting descending gains.
> It needs a 'ledge' that's hard to push through at about 28% shaft travel.
> Well what it really needs is an auto lock out feature based on terrain but we don't have that yet.


Everything points to you needing more compression damping.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Yes I agree, LSC is fully closed. 

It seems the HSC might be tied to the LSC and since I have the HSC turned fully open, it's leaving me with essentially no LSC.


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## Bicmtb123 (Sep 26, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> Yes I agree, LSC is fully closed.
> 
> It seems the HSC might be tied to the LSC and since I have the HSC turned fully open, it's leaving me with essentially no LSC.


I've had a similar experience with my Mara Pro on a Revel Rascal - I have the LSC fully closed but I still notice a bit of bobbing when I am standing when pedaling.
I tried to increase the air volume and pressure to improve the support, but I found the small bump compliance suffering a bit.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I've got it working better by just adding in more (unwanted) HSC.
It's pedaling much better now.


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## Bicmtb123 (Sep 26, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> I've got it working better by just adding in more (unwanted) HSC.
> It's pedaling much better now.


My HSC is 1-2 clicks from being fully closed already. So I'm a bit cautious to add more.
I don't know, maybe I am just used to the pedaling efficiency of short-travel trail bikes/ xc bikes, which makes any bobbing feels not normal.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Bicmtb123 said:


> My HSC is 1-2 clicks from being fully closed already. So I'm a bit cautious to add more.
> I don't know, maybe I am just used to the pedaling efficiency of short-travel trail bikes/ xc bikes, which makes any bobbing feels not normal.


One tune cannot fit all kinematics. A little custom shimstack Tuning should be the solution. If You have the right Person at Hand IT does Not Cost a fortune.

I weight 88 kg incl stuff,am only an advanced Amateur rider and Always let at least do a custom shimstack. No Matter what some Folks might say but I Feel a noticeable benefit from IT and Ride faster and more confident while having less pain in my Hands/keeping the Feed stuck to the Pedals.

Wegen I Came from a tuned Lyrik to a mezzer pro I immediately rode much faster due to the better Support with Same small bump sensitivity because of the better Overall fork. This improved With custom shimstack,Other oil and burnished bushings even more.

Unfortunately I Sold the 650b mezzer With a frame because of the Change to 29...
But aß I Miss the fork so much I got a new mezzer ob black friday from CRC which has DIRECTLY gotten "nsr Racing Love".
I was never satisfied With a Stock ext ERA but I think this Baby will fulfill all my wishes....referring to Riding a Bike 😄


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Suns_PSD said:


> The manner in which the Mara Pro absorbs the terrain, is phenomenal.
> However I'm beginning to feel that this comes at the expense of too much needed midrange pedaling support costing more climbing performance than the offsetting descending gains.
> It needs a 'ledge' that's hard to push through at about 28% shaft travel.
> Well what it really needs is an auto lock out feature based on terrain but we don't have that yet.


How does antisquat play into this? I haven't noticed any bad behavior during pedaling.


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## ToniT (Jun 1, 2018)

Are there any plans for a coil shock from Manitou?
I'm interested in the Mara Pro shock but would go for a coil if possible.


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## DHiggins (Jul 5, 2014)

Hi All, interested reads.

Any reason that a Mara Inline would not be okay on a Ripmo V2 (210 x 55) with the understanding I'm not doing bike parks, drops or extended (chunky) downhill greater than 10 minutes at a time? I generally prefer very efficient pedaling up fire roads and flat, but don't want to give up too much capability for the shorter technical sections.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

DHiggins said:


> Hi All, interested reads.
> 
> Any reason that a Mara Inline would not be okay on a Ripmo V2 (210 x 55) with the understanding I'm not doing bike parks, drops or extended (chunky) downhill greater than 10 minutes at a time? I generally prefer very efficient pedaling up fire roads and flat, but don't want to give up too much capability for the shorter technical sections.


Mara Inline will work great. Just keep in mind it's firmer damped than the Pro and has the low volume air can stock.


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## DHiggins (Jul 5, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Mara Inline will work great. Just keep in mind it's firmer damped than the Pro and has the low volume air can stock.


Thank you!


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## lockin (3 d ago)

Came with question here - I lately change bike to Focus Jam2 7.8 in XL frame (me 85kg, and 189cm). On my last bike (Ghost SL AMR also XL) I had RS Super Deluxe Select Coil damper and I was quite happy with it. Now Jam2 came with stock damper RS Deluxe Select 210x55 and after few rides I want to swap it. Unfortunately coil damper will not fit Jam2 frame so I am looking for something else. My option here is Mara Pro or Mara. Also I can have from local shop new RS Super Deluxe Ultimate RCT on same price as Mara Inline. Since I have not tested any of these 3 my question here is which one will be a best choice? Mara (300$), Mara Pro (500$) or that RS Super Deluxe Ultimate RCT (300$)? All three 210x55.


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