# Fitness differences between eMTB and old fashioned bike?



## lone_tree (Jan 22, 2015)

I've heard a few people claim that there's a fundamental difference in the type of workout you get with a eMTB vs a regular MTB. I rented one for a couple of days once and I got a better workout than on my regular bike. Some of that I attributed to the novelty of it. But on a normal riding day, my goal would be to keep my cadence at a certain level. I'm not going to push myself less just because I have pedal assist. I'm just going to go farther and higher than without.

My question is: Is there any actual science showing differences in workouts between the two types of bikes?

The only thing I can show to support that I wouldn't get an inferior workout on an eMTB is the fact that I don't take it easy when I could. For example, going downhill. This screenshot is from my ride today, and it's pretty typical-my heart rate is about the same downhill as it is on the way up. I'm extrapolating here, but I don't see why a similar outcome wouldn't happen on any other bike. Is there significantly more to it than heart rate?


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

You are handling a heavier bike going down so it could be more work. Obviously electric motor assist is independent of the level of rider input although due to psychology and other factors it may impact how much effort a rider exerts. My only concern with ebikes is all the extra watts doing more damage to trails that are intended for non motorized use. I dont care what people ride or how fast they go for their given efforts as long as everyone does their part to keep trails in good shape.


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## lone_tree (Jan 22, 2015)

I share your concerns. In my totally unscientific perspective, it’s the hooves and boots in my area that do more damage per capita than bikes. One horse going up a muddy trail does more damage than a dozen bikes on the same trail in the same condition.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

On an unscientific test I rode my bike up a hill. Then I rode an e-bike up a hill, at the same speed as my normal bike.
Normal bike over 3.8kms and 170m
Heart Rate average was 161bpm
Heart Rate average ebike 127bpm
So maybe 20% easier?


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

lone_tree said:


> I share your concerns. In my totally unscientific perspective, it's the hooves and boots in my area that do more damage per capita than bikes. One horse going up a muddy trail does more damage than a dozen bikes on the same trail in the same condition.


that horse is heavier than a hiker and puts more watts down on the trail. so they do more damage.

if an ebiker runs twice the distance on their ride then they did twice the trail damage that would normally occur from that individual.

im not too concerned about bikes doing damage to bike trails. but from a scientific view point you cant argue the facts. its just a very small effect.

more important

imo

is why do they make e bike specific components that are supposed to be stronger.

im 255lbs.

there is no way a 165lb guy on an ebike needs more brakes than i do!

guess ive been risking my life on unsafe equipment all this time. lol.

actually i expect its just them trying to extend component durability and diminish the perceived effect of the heavier bike to the rider. making ebikes easier to accept mainstream.

eg. no comments like. its good but too bad the bike has such poor braking compared to what im used to.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Fuse6F said:


> is why do they make e bike specific components that are supposed to be stronger.


Money.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

It’s impossible to track fitness differences scientifically between the two types of bikes. Every person it will vary depending on a million different factors. For example, I never stand up and sprint on my ebike. But I also take far fewer breaks after climbs when on my ebike. Stuff like this will vary from rider to rider.


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## itsky (Jul 26, 2011)

ebikes take out the hard part if the ride, so it’s way easier


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## mtbfree (Aug 20, 2015)

Fitness could probably be the same in theory if you put the same amount of workout into ride (except you would ride longer).
But in RL on my local trails all i see on e-mopeds is clueless unfit middle-aged riders fully equiped like MX riders with matching colors bike+clothes+helmet. Running on Turbo mode all the time.
And they bought e-stuff primary to avoid workout and they don't care about fitness 😁


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

The limit to how fast one can go is in the trail, not in the rider or the bike.
If you are on an easy trail, the ebike can go very fast. If you start to add turns and obstacles, the ebike speed gets closer to the pedal bike speed. If you are very fast on an ebike, you have to ride farther/longer so that your workout is the same duration as on the pedal bike to make it equivalent. It _could_ be the same workout, but I doubt it works out that way very often.

I know 2 guys who are the same size, but one guy is faster. The fast guy pedals while the other rides an ebike. At some point, the pedal guy gets tired and they switch bikes. As a team, they can ride much longer than as individuals, and they both get about the same workout.

-F


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Fleas said:


> The limit to how fast one can go is in the trail, not in the rider or the bike.
> If you are on an easy trail, the ebike can go very fast. If you start to add turns and obstacles, the ebike speed gets closer to the pedal bike speed. If you are very fast on an ebike, you have to ride farther/longer so that your workout is the same duration as on the pedal bike to make it equivalent. It _could_ be the same workout, but I doubt it works out that way very often.
> 
> I know 2 guys who are the same size, but one guy is faster. The fast guy pedals while the other rides an ebike. At some point, the pedal guy gets tired and they switch bikes. As a team, they can ride much longer than as individuals, and they both get about the same workout.
> ...


Another example of your point is steep climbing pitches. On a regular bike, you may not have a choice but to go over your threshold to ride up it. An ebike can potentially have enough power to get you up without you going anaerobic. And anaerobic work is super taxing on your body (in a good way for building fitness). Assuming identical pain tolerance, I suspect most people will avoid maximal efforts when given the choice.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

bikeranzin said:


> Another example of your point is steep climbing pitches. On a regular bike, you may not have a choice but to go over your threshold to ride up it. An ebike can potentially have enough power to get you up without you going anaerobic. And anaerobic work is super taxing on your body (in a good way for building fitness). Assuming identical pain tolerance, I suspect most people will avoid maximal efforts when given the choice.


Good point! I have tried to duplicate that anaerobic effort that only comes with steep, nasty climbs by simply shifting into a high(er) gear on a more moderate climb, but it's not the same. And I _know_ that those anaerobic climbs make me a better rider, but only the oldest trails still have them, so they are hard to find.

-F


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

I have a good body of data on this from riding both my MTB and eMTB on the same trails many times. Rough estimate is 15-20% less physical effort for 10-15% higher average speed. I've had outlier rides (and an eMTB race) where my HR was pegged every bit as hard as if I was on my MTB or 'cross bike. 

Also, terrain is a limiting factor to the point that, unless you turn off your motor completely, you're just not going to need to put in the same effort as on a regular MTB. For example, a twisty bit of singletrack where your speed and traction limit you more than fitness. On those trails, the eMTB is usually less effort. Again, you can turn down the assist if you want a hard workout on trails like that, but if you have both an MTB and an eMTB, just ride the MTB that day. 

I've found that I average 80% of my rides on the regular MTB and 20% on the eMTB. That changes a bit seasonally - when training for events its more MTB of course, and in the winter it's a bit more on the eMTB.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I live in Utah and have numerous routes with 3000+ feet of climbing.
I probably will get an ebike at some point. I was going to get one next year for my 70th birthday.
If they don't make climbing easier, I'm NOT getting one!


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

In my experience, with the only data I have to go on being a heart rate monitor, the emtb ride is just a slightly less intense, but longer workout. I tend to ride my emtb about the same way as I ride my regular mtb. I pedal about as hard as I can at any given moment and use the assist just to pick up more speed when I can to get more miles. 

The result is a longer ride with a more consistent heart rate throughout the entire ride, whereas my heart rate tends to spike more in the red zone and come back down more often on the regular mtb. They're both good workouts, just a different kind of workout. 

One thing I will say though, is that if you're riding higher speed trails that are rough and chunky on an emtb, my arms and shoulders tend to be much more fatigued than they are when I ride those same trails on a regular mtb, likely due to manhandling a heavier bike through the rough stuff at the slightly higher speeds.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

MSU Alum said:


> I live in Utah and have numerous routes with 3000+ feet of climbing.
> I probably will get an ebike at some point. I was going to get one next year for my 70th birthday.
> *If they don't make climbing easier, I'm NOT getting one*!


Make no mistake, and emtb will make climbing much easier on your legs, especially if you want to do the climbs in the full power mode.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

MX9799 said:


> Make no mistake, and emtb will make climbing much easier on your legs, especially if you want to do the climbs in the full power mode.


Yeah. Seems obvious!


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## CraigE (Oct 1, 2008)

Mudguard said:


> On an unscientific test I rode my bike up a hill. Then I rode an e-bike up a hill, at the same speed as my normal bike.
> Normal bike over 3.8kms and 170m
> Heart Rate average was 161bpm
> Heart Rate average ebike 127bpm
> So maybe 20% easier?


Your 20% less effort riding an eBike, based on heart rate, is exactly the number I came up with after many years of riding the same trails and then switching to eBikes.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

itsky said:


> ebikes take out the hard part if the ride, so it's way easier


What's the hard part? Come ride with me and I can guarantee the hardest part will be the downhills. Uncontrollably steep chutes with no run out, loose off-cambers on the edge of a cliff, mandatory jumps and gaps, step downs, road gaps, etc. The climbs are just to recover and get the heart rate back down from all the butt puckering moments many experience. With or without an ebike.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Training load is quantified nowadays by something call TSS. (Training Stress Score). If is basically a measurement of how hard a training session is. If you know your threshold heart rate and upload your ride to a training analysis software it give you a numeric value of training load.

Last week I did the exact same ride on my XC-hardtail and E-bike. The scores were 98 for the hardtail and 86 for the E-bike. But because I did the ride faster on my e-bike the training load per hour of riding was pretty well the same.


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## lone_tree (Jan 22, 2015)

mtbfree said:


> Fitness could probably be the same in theory if you put the same amount of workout into ride (except you would ride longer).
> But in RL on my local trails all i see on e-mopeds is clueless unfit middle-aged riders fully equiped like MX riders with matching colors bike+clothes+helmet. Running on Turbo mode all the time.
> And they bought e-stuff primary to avoid workout and they don't care about fitness ?


That's certainly true in some cases (your stereotype of the type of e-bike rider on the trail). I've seen some of that in my area. But for some people, having an e-bike is the difference between riding or not riding (at least on trails). You can argue forever about whether or not they should. I like to think it's good they're at least getting out there.

In "real life", as you say, it's going to be different for everyone. For me, the few times I've ridden one, I've put in the same or more effort on the e-bike as I do on my normal rides. The difference is I go farther.

What I'm trying to either prove or disprove is if there's a meaningful difference between riding the two types of bikes, controlling for as many variables as possible. E.g. Same trails (but going farther on the e-bike), same cadence, same heart rate, etc. I don't see how, all else equal except for the distance, you have an inferior workout on the e-bike.


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## lone_tree (Jan 22, 2015)

LMN said:


> Training load is quantified nowadays by something call TSS. (Training Stress Score). If is basically a measurement of how hard a training session is. If you know your threshold heart rate and upload your ride to a training analysis software it give you a numeric value of training load.
> 
> Last week I did the exact same ride on my XC-hardtail and E-bike.  The scores were 98 for the hardtail and 86 for the E-bike. But because I did the ride faster on my e-bike the training load per hour of riding was pretty well the same.


Ah, this is interesting and helpful. I wonder what the results would be if you had gone 20-30% farther on the e-bike.


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## lone_tree (Jan 22, 2015)

RBoardman said:


> What's the hard part? Come ride with me and I can guarantee the hardest part will be the downhills. Uncontrollably steep chutes with no run out, loose off-cambers on the edge of a cliff, mandatory jumps and gaps, step downs, road gaps, etc. The climbs are just to recover and get the heart rate back down from all the butt puckering moments many experience. With or without an ebike.


So true. Look at my heart rate profile in my original post at the top.  This isn't a fluke. I consistently see similar results: More consistently elevated heart rate on the descent (often _averaging_ as high or higher) compared to the ascent.


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## mtnbeer (Jul 2, 2007)

You'll get a better workout on a motocross bike than an E-bike. A Yamaha YZ125 is about the same price as a good E-bike.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

mtnbeer said:


> You'll get a better workout on a motocross bike than an E-bike. A Yamaha YZ125 is about the same price as a good E-bike.


I used to ride MX and I agree. Places to ride that YZ 125 are getting fewer and farther between though. All the tracks within 2 hours of where I live shut down, so there's really no good place to ride MX anymore.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

mtnbeer said:


> You'll get a better workout on a motocross bike than an E-bike. A Yamaha YZ125 is about the same price as a good E-bike.


Very true.
But I do find it amusing when people point out that motocross riders are among the most fit athletes. While it's likely correct, it doesn't mean an overweight 50 year old couch potato will get in shape by riding motocross. It's because they're 25 year old motocross dudes who would probably be world class athletes regardless. I have a friend who is sort of in that category (not the 25 year old) who snowmobiles. Last winter, he was sucking wind skiing and attributed it to not snowmobiling enough. That probably wasn't the cause.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

MSU Alum said:


> Very true.
> *But I do find it amusing when people point out that motocross riders are among the most fit athletes.* While it's likely correct, it doesn't mean an overweight 50 year old couch potato will get in shape by riding motocross. It's because they're 25 year old motocross dudes who would probably be world class athletes regardless. I have a friend who is sort of in that category (not the 25 year old) who snowmobiles. Last winter, he was sucking wind skiing and attributed it to not snowmobiling enough. That probably wasn't the cause.


They are from an endurance perspective. In an MX race, a racer's HR will spike into the red zone soon after the gate drops, and stay there for 30 minutes plus 2 laps (unless they find themselves in a position to run a comfortable/easy pace for a period of time in the moto). They have to pretty much be able to operate with a very high HR for a good amount of time, and do that twice on a given race day. There aren't many other sports that put that much stress on the cardiovascular system.

However, I'm sure there are athletes from many other sports that, on average, are stronger, faster, more flexible, etc. than MX racers.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

MX9799 said:


> They are from an endurance perspective. In an MX race, a racer's HR will spike into the red zone soon after the gate drops, and stay there for 30 minutes plus 2 laps (unless they find themselves in a position to run a comfortable/easy pace for a period of time in the moto). They have to pretty much be able to operate with a very high HR for a good amount of time, and do that twice on a given race day. There aren't many other sports that put that much stress on the cardiovascular system.
> 
> However, I'm sure there are athletes from many other sports that, on average, are stronger, faster, more flexible, etc. than MX racers.


Allow me to repeat the salient point, only because I wasn't disputing the fitness of MX racers:
"While it's likely correct, it doesn't mean an overweight 50 year old couch potato will get in shape by riding motocross."

I flew fighters and typically stayed over 200bpm, during ACM. THAT didn't get me in shape. I was able to do it, because I was in shape.
Now, of course, I'd just sh*t my pants.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

MSU Alum said:


> Allow me to repeat the salient point, only because I wasn't disputing the fitness of MX racers:
> "While it's likely correct, it doesn't mean an overweight 50 year old couch potato will get in shape by riding motocross."
> 
> I flew fighters and typically stayed over 200bpm, during ACM. THAT didn't get me in shape. I was able to do it, because I was in shape.
> Now, of course, I'd just sh*t my pants.


You have a rather solid understanding of training.

Sort of like, needing to strong arms to be able to mountain bike, but mountain biking doesn't build strong arms.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

lone_tree said:


> Ah, this is interesting and helpful. I wonder what the results would be if you had gone 20-30% farther on the e-bike.


20-30% further and it wouldn't have been an e-bike. It would have been a really slow bio-bike.

What was most interesting is the e-bike was only a bit quicker and actually slower than when I ride the same route really giving it on a good XC bike.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

My experience is that the training load on an e-bike is very similar to that of a road bike. I ride at average of 135bpm and generally stay within a 15 beat range of that. Where as on a bio-bike I might average the same but the range is much high. Bio-bikes require more effort on the climbs and but less effort to descend at pace.


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## itsky (Jul 26, 2011)

MX9799 said:


> I used to ride MX and I agree. Places to ride that YZ 125 are getting fewer and farther between though. All the tracks within 2 hours of where I live shut down, so there's really no good place to ride MX anymore.


I'm afraid this will be the case with many of the mountain bike trails I like to ride. ebikes that are not allowed, riding anyways going to get the trails shut down for MTB riders.


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## itsky (Jul 26, 2011)

lone_tree said:


> So true. Look at my heart rate profile in my original post at the top.  This isn't a fluke. I consistently see similar results: More consistently elevated heart rate on the descent (often _averaging_ as high or higher) compared to the ascent.


I don't understand, you're agreeing that the downhills are the hardest part. Then you share that your heart rate on the downs is equal to that of the climbs. The post you quote is again saying heart rate is higher on the downs.

How does an ebike equate to higher heart rates than a MTB on the downs?

How does an ebike not equate to a lower heart rate on the ups?

I understand that it could enable you ride longer (due to easier effort per climb).


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

LMN said:


> 20-30% further and it wouldn't have been an e-bike. It would have been a really slow bio-bike.
> 
> What was most interesting is the e-bike was only a bit quicker and actually slower than when I ride the same route really giving it on a good XC bike.


So you're saying that once the battery dies, the e-bike is a fantastic workout?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

bikeranzin said:


> So you're saying that once the battery dies, the e-bike is a fantastic workout?


Is being miserable a fantastic workout?


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

LMN said:


> Is being miserable a fantastic workout?


Correlated, but the causal direction is the other way, at least sometimes.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

MSU Alum said:


> Allow me to repeat the salient point, only because I wasn't disputing the fitness of MX racers:
> "While it's likely correct, it doesn't mean an overweight 50 year old couch potato will get in shape by riding motocross."
> 
> I flew fighters and typically stayed over 200bpm, during ACM. THAT didn't get me in shape. I was able to do it, because I was in shape.
> Now, of course, I'd just sh*t my pants.


Yeah, I wasn't trying to argue with you about it. Guess I was just trying to expand on what you were talking about.

Back in the day, I would race MX all spring and summer. I never really felt like it racing made things any easier on me come early August when football practice started back up.


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## stevenfallover (Jun 5, 2004)

My average heart rate is a few beats lower when I ride my E-bike, and I will ride longer and further on my E-bike compared to when I ride my banjo bike. Either way, I don't care, it is all about having fun for the most part. If I want to get serious I'll ride my road bike (not pedal assist).


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Bikes generally arent the best for workouts unless you are really pushing like race workouts or giant all day endurance rides. They usually don’t burn all that many calories per hour, compared to say lifting weights (not powerlifting, but core building) and running. An e-bike obviously waters it down much further.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I have a Yeti SB115 and an Orbea Rise (e-bike). I can get whatever workout I want on the Orbea by simply adjusting the assist level (Off, Eco, Trail or Boost) and how hard I pedal. I can pin my HR if I want, but that’s not why I got the Rise, nor how I choose to ride it. If I want anaerobic peaks, I’ll ride my 115; when I ride the Rise, it generally smooths out those peaks, and keeps me in Z3/Tempo, and low Z4.

Having done a bunch of structured training, I would say a benefit of an e-bike is enabling much more tempo riding on varied terrain, where an analog/pedal bike would have you going anaerobic in Z5/6 much more. I think it’s a fantastic training tool, when used in conjunction with other bikes and training devices/programs, and regardless, contributes positively to one’s overall fitness.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## itsky (Jul 26, 2011)

waltaz said:


> I have a Yeti SB115 and an Orbea Rise (e-bike). I can get whatever workout I want on the Orbea by simply adjusting the assist level (Off, Eco, Trail or Boost) and how hard I pedal. I can pin my HR if I want, but that's not why I got the Rise, nor how I choose to ride it. If I want anaerobic peaks, I'll ride my 115; when I ride the Rise, it generally smooths out those peaks, and keeps me in Z3/Tempo, and low Z4.
> 
> Having done a bunch of structured training, I would say a benefit of an e-bike is enabling much more tempo riding on varied terrain, where an analog/pedal bike would have you going anaerobic in Z5/6 much more. I think it's a fantastic training tool, when used in conjunction with other bikes and training devices/programs, and regardless, contributes positively to one's overall fitness.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Good take and I can appreciate this side of things.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

waltaz said:


> I would say a benefit of an e-bike is enabling much more tempo riding on varied terrain, where an analog/pedal bike would have you going anaerobic in Z5/6 much more. I think it's a fantastic training tool, when ....


I don't see the point in riding an emtb just to get the same hr training as a mediocre road ride.

If riding a mountain bike is just too hard, maybe get a road bike....and you can stay in z3 all week long, and get that fantastic workout you guys all rave about.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I don't see the point in riding an emtb just to get the same hr training as a mediocre road ride.
> 
> If riding a mountain bike is just too hard, maybe get a road bike....and you can stay in z3 all week long, and get that fantastic workout you guys all rave about.


Did I say it was too hard?

I'll ride my Rise when I want to do alot of hard climbing for repeated laps on fun downhill-ish runs without blowing myself up. Or, if in a training block, ride varied terrain while staying in a particular zone. The latter is much more fun and safer than road riding, which I don't do.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I don't see the point in riding an emtb just to get the same hr training as a mediocre road ride.
> 
> If riding a mountain bike is just too hard, maybe get a road bike....and you can stay in z3 all week long, and get that fantastic workout you guys all rave about.


You take every opportunity to troll e-bikes.

Riding an E-mountain bike > road bike

What about us mountain bikers that ride both E-mountain bikes and mountain bikes?

I just did a 37 mile ride with 4000 ft of climbing on my motorless Stumpy in the Cedro/Otero area a couple of days ago. I'm confident in my fitness, and I ride my E-bike 50% of the time.

Do I get a pass gate keeper?

Top of Bear Scat -


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## mtbfree (Aug 20, 2015)

lone_tree said:


> That's certainly true in some cases (your stereotype of the type of e-bike rider on the trail). I've seen some of that in my area. But for some people, having an e-bike is the difference between riding or not riding (at least on trails). You can argue forever about whether or not they should. I like to think it's good they're at least getting out there.
> 
> In "real life", as you say, it's going to be different for everyone. For me, the few times I've ridden one, I've put in the same or more effort on the e-bike as I do on my normal rides. The difference is I go farther.
> 
> What I'm trying to either prove or disprove is if there's a meaningful difference between riding the two types of bikes, controlling for as many variables as possible. E.g. Same trails (but going farther on the e-bike), same cadence, same heart rate, etc. I don't see how, all else equal except for the distance, you have an inferior workout on the e-bike.


You should slowly read one more time my post.....i was saying about RL situation ON MY LOCAL trails - there are ONLY riders as i described - there are no riders with health condition which allows only e-stuff riding, there are no racers using e-stuff for training etc... so i don't have a "stereotype" if i tell you how it is on my local trails.
Point of my post was that it COULD be the same workout - BUT it all depends on rider - if he put the same amount of workout into ride it will be the same workout. On LOCAL trails i can see no such riders. I'm glad that you and probably many more out there are not like that. Local e-riders which i see decided they just want to ride uphill in turbo mode ( with seats fully lowered) trying to avoid workout as much as possible


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Ebikers: "I love my ebike because I can ride farther!"

also ebikers on group rides: "hey guys is this ride going to be over 15 miles? If so my battery might die"


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

To get the same workout on a mtb going 14-15 mph you have to do 20+ mph. Most modern trail are designed around 29'r mtb and don't flow well at those speeds. The only good riders at that speeds have to use motocross skills or risk wreaking with higher damage. If you want a workout get a mtb just fun ride an emtb.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

waltaz said:


> when I ride the Rise, it generally smooths out those peaks, and keeps me in Z3/Tempo, and low Z4.


The idea of going out on a ride and just getting a nice aerobic workout, while enjoying the trails seems okay to me!


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

mtnbeer said:


> You'll get a better workout on a motocross bike than an E-bike. A Yamaha YZ125 is about the same price as a good E-bike.


Totally different workout though. I find different muscles tend to be engaged/fatigued on the KTM dirt bike vs the MTB/eMTB.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

mlx john said:


> You take every opportunity to troll e-bikes.
> 
> Riding an E-mountain bike > road bike
> 
> ...


Hey - clipped in, Thomson post and touring grips on that Tallboy? I hope you at least ditch your lycra for your off road adventures


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

mlx john said:


> You take every opportunity to troll e-bikes.


Not all ebikers....

Just the braggarts and the insecure.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Jack7782 said:


> Hey - clipped in, Thomson post and touring grips on that Tallboy? I hope you at least ditch your lycra for your off road adventures


Not my bike. Lycra feels pretty good when you hit the 25+ mile mark. 
Flat pedals suck btw


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I don't see the point in riding an emtb just to get the same hr training as a mediocre road ride.
> 
> If riding a mountain bike is just too hard, maybe get a road bike....and you can stay in z3 all week long, and get that fantastic workout you guys all rave about.


Some folks ride mtb, or emtb, because it is fun, and the training aspect of it is just an adjacent benefit that comes along with it.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Not all ebikers....
> 
> Just the braggarts and the insecure.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Fleas said:


> The limit to how fast one can go is in the trail, not in the rider or the bike.
> If you are on an easy trail, the ebike can go very fast. If you start to add turns and obstacles, the ebike speed gets closer to the pedal bike speed. If you are very fast on an ebike, you have to ride farther/longer so that your workout is the same duration as on the pedal bike to make it equivalent. It _could_ be the same workout, but I doubt it works out that way very often.
> 
> I know 2 guys who are the same size, but one guy is faster. The fast guy pedals while the other rides an ebike. At some point, the pedal guy gets tired and they switch bikes. As a team, they can ride much longer than as individuals, and they both get about the same workout.
> ...


I agree 100%.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yeah, noodley forks and weak brakes often get replaced on my emtb. As far as work out goes, who cares? Turn the ***** off and blow up!


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

One thing that does get a better workout because of e-bikes: your mouth. You used to be able to say "bike" and people would know what you meant. Now you have to say one of [analog, acoustic, banjo, etc.] bike.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

*delete


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I don't see the point in riding an emtb just to get the same hr training as a mediocre road ride.
> 
> If riding a mountain bike is just too hard, maybe get a road bike....and you can stay in z3 all week long, and get that fantastic workout you guys all rave about.


Maybe you are missing that fact E-bikes are also seriously fun.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Not all ebikers....
> 
> Just the braggarts and the insecure.


Like the OP who it seems has to boost his ego by calling bicycles "old fashioned". _Some _ebikers do seem to be insecure with what they're doing and look for ways to make themselves feel better about it.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Isn’t there a performance pill for “insecurity or performance” when the lights go out!😵‍💫 Nu genex??!! This is when the real riding begins..


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Gutch said:


> Isn't there a performance pill for "insecurity or performance" when the lights go out!‍ Nu genex??!! This is when the real riding begins..


So you're saying eBikes are a performance pill for the guys who never had it, or lost it? Got it.

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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> So you're saying eBikes are a performance pill for the guys who never had it, or lost it? Got it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, I'm saying I ride an ebike and am i insecure? Hell no. I was joking around but the guys still running bar ends may not get it&#8230;


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Ride what you wish Leduke, idgaf. Real cyclists don’t judge. Just saying.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Everyone is always looking for a fitness shortcut IMO. They want the magic pill or device that works them out without feeling that they are working out. It doesn’t exist, but marketing and businesses will tell you otherwise and lots of people will try…


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

*Member has removed content due to fundamental disagreement with this site owner's views favoring expanded access for electric mountain bikes (eMtb) on multiuse singletrack in public lands.*


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Jayem said:


> Everyone is always looking for a fitness shortcut IMO. They want the magic pill or device that works them out without feeling that they are working out. It doesn't exist, but marketing and businesses will tell you otherwise and lots of people will try&#8230;


It's not ebikes! If I want to workout, I'll go to my gym in my shop


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Bar ends can keep you in Zone 3 for, like, 37 miles.


I once got 38 out, but I took a big dump and ate a few bananas. That was Mt Tam. 😄


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

This thread is gettin good.


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## lotusdriver (Sep 15, 2013)

After 13,000 miles on regular MTB l bought an ebike this year.
lt's very hilly around here, l live in the Peak District National Park.
My shortest 7 mile loop from home has 1,000 feet of climbing.

So far l've done 1500 miles on the ebike. As for my fitness level, l went out on one of my regular MTB routes on my old bike last week and posted a similar time as before l got my ebike.
As already said, it depends on how you ride the ebike.
l never use turbo, l ride in eco or trail, l put in as much effort as l can sustain without having to back off, and let the motor add whatever it can.
That way l get home and still feel like l've done a bike ride, but my rides are twice as far as l was doing on my regular MTB.
So it's opened up a whole new set of trails from my home.
Oh, and the ebike is so much fun. Ebikes should come with a towel, to wipe the grin off your face when you get home!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Gutch said:


> No, I'm saying I ride an ebike and am i insecure? Hell no. I was joking around but the guys still running bar ends may not get it&#8230;


Who still runs bar ends?

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Who still runs bar ends?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I put some on an old hardtail last year. They are awesome, at least until you hook them on a tree.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Jayem said:


> Everyone is always looking for a fitness shortcut IMO. They want the magic pill or device that works them out without feeling that they are working out. It doesn't exist, but marketing and businesses will tell you otherwise and lots of people will try&#8230;


I ride bikes because they are fun. I haven't gone on a ride once in the past few years and concerned myself if I was getting a good workout or not. I'll just ride until I'm tired or stop having fun (Which sometimes can last way past the point of being tired).


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

RBoardman said:


> I ride bikes because they are fun. I haven't gone on a ride once in the past few years and concerned myself if I was getting a good workout or not. I'll just ride until I'm tired or stop having fun (Which sometimes can last way past the point of being tired).


Exactly. If all you want is a good workout, a gym membership is MUCH cheaper. Bust out some high intensity workouts there and you'll get fit AND ripped. There'll likely be a lot more hot chicks to look at in the gym than on the trail as well.

I'll hit up the gym 3 days a during each work week, and honestly, I think that's where most of my fitness comes from. The weekends, for me, are for having a blast on something with two wheels.


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## CEB (Mar 17, 2005)

Get a bike, regardless of electronic or "standard". Ride that bike today, then again tomorrow. Use your body...... lots of good input on the subject here. I've ridden both and BOTH can be a "workout".


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

CEB said:


> Get a bike, regardless of electronic or "standard". Ride that bike today, then again tomorrow. Use your body...... lots of good input on the subject here. I've ridden both and BOTH and be a "workout".


^^This!!

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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

IMO eBike makes you pedal more to get assist,heavier in most cases. Equal workout but the payout is a farther ride. 

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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

2old said:


> IMO eBike makes you pedal more to get assist,heavier in most cases. Equal workout but the payout is a farther ride.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I don't think it's an equal ride. You have to ride further or longer. As I said in my earlier post, as close to an apples to apples comparison I could do resulted in my heart rate being 20% lower on the e-bike.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I don't see the point in riding an emtb just to get the same hr training as a mediocre road ride.
> 
> If riding a mountain bike is just too hard, maybe get a road bike....and you can stay in z3 all week long, and get that fantastic workout you guys all rave about.


This is just BS. He never said it was too hard. Just that some of us who ride most days don't want to ride in Zone 5 or 6 every time we ride. I just got back from Crested Butte, CO for a week of riding. Those climbs are long and STEEP, and at 61 I couldn't have had much fun riding there day after day without my e-bike. It allowed me to enjoy the DH more and be able to recover enough to go every day. I know, I know, "just ride more". Well, ****, I ride 450 hours a year and I'm not gonna ride anymore than that. And I bet you don't either...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I rode my local trails yesterday and there is a short jumpline trail. I saw a bunch of young guys (like 15) and one older guy on ebikes who just kept riding the line over and over. There really is not much elevation change at all, not a long nor steep climb back to the top and I was just wondering, why? Saw them later in the parking lot loading up a Sprinter Van decked out with a vertical bike rack on the back. Seemed like a case of just having too much money to burn. Hopefully they get out on some more elevation rides (lift served) that make it make more sense but that would be a pretty good drive from here.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

I discovered that I can do my "mediocre road rides" on my Trek Rail.








(I have a second wheel set for the road)


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

I have put in a lot of eBike miles alongside my analog bikes. Base aerobic fitness actually improves with eBikes because people tend to ride them longer. Downside is that you lose a LOT of top end power and it is not easy to gain back. 

So if you are riding up smoother singletrack or fire roads on a regular bike you will probably feel better. If you are turning yourself inside out on an Enduro stage or grinding up a technical singletrack climb that requires some hard efforts it is going to be very painful.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

For me, fitness is exponential over an analog...I ride my bike, I didn't ride my old bike.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Personal attacks are not allowed. If you are not a fan of eBikes, go post elsewhere on the forum.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Jack7782 said:


> I discovered that I can do my "mediocre road rides" on my Trek Rail.
> View attachment 1947059
> 
> (I have a second wheel set for the road)
> View attachment 1947060


I've been riding the Rise on my gravel rides all summer, my poor Salsa gravel bike is catching dust. Wouldn't mind trying a diff set of wheels w/some proper tires but I already ride faster and farther than I ever did on the Salsa.


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## lone_tree (Jan 22, 2015)

mtbfree said:


> Local e-riders which i see decided they just want to ride uphill in turbo mode ( with seats fully lowered) trying to avoid workout as much as possible


But wait, riding with your seat fully lowered is harder on the legs, so maybe they're doing that to get more of a workout.


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## lone_tree (Jan 22, 2015)

chazpat said:


> Like the OP who it seems has to boost his ego by calling bicycles "old fashioned". _Some _ebikers do seem to be insecure with what they're doing and look for ways to make themselves feel better about it.


I'm the OP and maybe "old fashioned" was a bad choice of words. What would you call them? Traditional? Pedal bikes? Pick your term, it's all the same--just trying to differentiate. I don't even own an e-bike. I own an old-fashioned pedal bike and I love the purity of it. My regular rides are 800-1200 vertical feet in 7-9 miles. Not a ton (at least not for my area), but I'm earning every pedal stroke. At least for now.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

lone_tree said:


> I'm the OP and maybe "old fashioned" was a bad choice of words. What would you call them? Traditional? Pedal bikes? Pick your term,


I vote: bike


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

lone_tree said:


> But wait, riding with your seat fully lowered is harder on the legs, so maybe they're doing that to get more of a workout.


With motor assistance, you can lower your saddle and shift your weight back to clean those "unridable hills" Way more fun than the hike-a-bike of the old days


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I still think if I bought an e-bike I'd never ride my normal bike. I play a lot of golf and there are a few who play with retro sets (think actual wooden woods instead of metal, and tiny old school blades), whereas I cannot see the point even though I actually own a retro set, there's no way I'm going to waste my one round a week on playing with old fashioned gear.

I do wonder how often those with a pair of similar bikes, one electric, one not, how often they take the unassisted one out. I could understand if you say had a 120mm XCish normal bike, and a 170mm e-bike that there would be a difference. But if I had two the same I couldn't see me riding unassisted.


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## stevenfallover (Jun 5, 2004)

When I ride my E bike think that I will never ride my Banjo bike again. But than I ride my Banjo and realize how much fun it still is! I really like them both and that is what really counts. They are both fun,


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Mudguard said:


> I still think if I bought an e-bike I'd never ride my normal bike. I play a lot of golf and there are a few who play with retro sets (think actual wooden woods instead of metal, and tiny old school blades), whereas I cannot see the point even though I actually own a retro set, there's no way I'm going to waste my one round a week on playing with old fashioned gear.
> 
> I do wonder how often those with a pair of similar bikes, one electric, one not, how often they take the unassisted one out. I could understand if you say had a 120mm XCish normal bike, and a 170mm e-bike that there would be a difference. But if I had two the same I couldn't see me riding unassisted.


I'll bite... er, bike.

I have:
140mm FS (Guerrilla Gravity The Smash) pedal bike
163mm FS (Canfield Lithium) pedal bike
160mm FS (Trek Rail 7) ebike

I ride the two pedal bikes twice as much as I ride the ebike. And this includes doing trailwork, where I take the ebike to pull a BOB trailer to get my tread tools, chainsaw & lopper into the backcountry.
I love doing trailwork as much as I love riding bicycles.
If any of my three bikes had to go, and the choice was mine, I'd say 'adios' to the ebike first.
That said, it's a blast to ride. Just not as addictive as many said it would be.
I also ride off-road motorcycles, so I'm used to having a vehicle that combines two wheels with power.
I've often said that an ebike is an underpowered electric motorcycle with an awkward throttle because this is exactly what it is.
Put that throttle on the grip, where it ought to be.
Oops, then we can't ride on all those trails where we're allowed to ride with the awkward pedal throttle system.
Well, okay then.
=sParty


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Sparticus said:


> I'll bite... er, bike.
> 
> Well, okay then.


I should probably rephrase that. I'm not in a position to own two new bikes. 
A new Enduro is about $8.7K here vs the Turbo Levo at $9500 (1113 and 1216 Big Macs) so I would have to choose one.


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## mtbfree (Aug 20, 2015)

lone_tree said:


> But wait, riding with your seat fully lowered is harder on the legs, so maybe they're doing that to get more of a workout.


Agreed - it must be hell of a workout going up 25% uphill with cadence of something like 5 with seat fully lowered. They will have Chris Hoy legs in no time from "workout" they do 😁


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Sparticus said:


> I also ride off-road motorcycles, so I'm used to having a vehicle that combines two wheels with power.
> I've often said that an ebike is an underpowered electric motorcycle with an awkward throttle because this is exactly what it is.
> Put that throttle on the grip, where it ought to be.
> Oops, then we can't ride on all those trails where we're allowed to ride with the awkward pedal throttle system.
> ...


I used to live in Montana, where dirt bikers (as in off-road motorcycles), mountain bikers, hikers and equestrians all milled about on the same trails. Of course, that attitude is being "tested" as the population grows, but I think if I could live in an area like that again (and I may) I'd really like to get my hands on a good electric dirt bike.


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

Amazing to me on the amount of comment on how EMTB's ride from those who don't have one. Anyway, my background is started riding off road on bikes in 1985, met my wife in 1996 who started riding and kept with it ever since. Riding has always been a part of out activity which also includes Ski, ski touring and wind sports like kiting and now wing sailing. So a pretty full plate. We average about 3-4 days a week riding during the season and occasionally during the Winter since we live near Tahoe. We are old but strong and got Ebikes about 1.5 years ago. We didn't get them because of being old or disabled but we had some friends who got them, all good MTBERs and we decide to get Ebikes to ride with them as well as being able to get more mileage too. At first we rode our new bikes just about all the time and did rides that would have been huge pedaling. Now we ride E about 2-3/wk and pedal 1-2wk. 

Anyway, for us our pedal rides are legs and lungs and ebiking is upper body,core and judgement. HR wise riding hard our #'s are 20-30% less on our Ebikes and Ebikes are a big handful riding hard going downhill and judgement is a huge part. 

Lastly, our gear: 
Me XL HighTower, Custom HT, Orbea Wild FS
Wife M Ibis Mojo, Orbea Wild FS


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I rode my e-bike last year and I did maintain decent cardio. I probably used the middle or Trail setting most, with flats on Low at times. Then I hopped on my regular bike and holy moly...I had much less power. I could ride a longer time if I kept my power output really low. So this year, I had to just put the e-bike in the basement and ride my regular bike. Now my power is back and the one ride I did on my e-bike, the battery lasted way longer than usual. 😆. So the poor e-bike is in trouble, but I think I could do recovery rides on it. The e-bike makes me feel like I'm a really strong Pro rider, so there is that benefit too.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Our you could lift weights for your legs

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rod9301 said:


> Our you could lift weights for your legs
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


Please explain how that will help his sustained power output.

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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Flyer said:


> I rode my e-bike last year and I did maintain decent cardio. I probably used the middle or Trail setting most, with flats on Low at times. Then I hopped on my regular bike and holy moly...I had much less power. I could ride a longer time if I kept my power output really low. So this year, I had to just put the e-bike in the basement and ride my regular bike. Now my power is back and the one ride I did on my e-bike, the battery lasted way longer than usual. 😆. So the poor e-bike is in trouble, but I think I could do recovery rides on it. The e-bike makes me feel like I'm a really strong Pro rider, so there is that benefit too.


That is almost exactly my experience from last year. Been pushing the manual pedals most of the time this year and just riding the e-bike for fun here and there (or when I've put in a big effort the day before and want to take it easy) and I feel much stronger.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Please explain how that will help his sustained power output.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The stronger your legs are, the less taxed they will be.

There's a lot of research on this.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rod9301 said:


> The stronger your legs are, the less taxed they will be.
> 
> There's a lot of research on this.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


Perhaps this belief is why you ride an eBike and not an actual human powered bicycle..

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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Ok, I'm riding an e bike because i like the downhill and i can get twice as much.

But now i ride 12-13 hours an week instead of 8 on my Enduro bike and I'm in a lot better shape aerobically.

And again, i lift weights to keep my legs strong, biking was never enough. 

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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Yeah, I have been (and was) lifting and doing some light running too. Physically I was strong and relatively fit, but my power output dropped significantly over time, even though I was doing 3-4 hour rides on the E and never in the highest setting. I thought I was working pretty hard on the e-bike but I guess I forgot how much suffering and burst power climbing here involves. We have a lot of sustained climbs here in Colorado and many at high altitude, so that made things worse from a fitness/power standpoint. My e-bike is really nice (a di2 Pivot Shuttle) so I'll ride it for recovery or fun rides like you are. It is probably silly to do that with such an expensive bike but I can't afford to lose that much fitness again. It takes too long to build that back up around here.


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## bdamschen (Jan 4, 2006)

Spent a week riding as much gnarly DH and even dirt jumps as I could on my ebike in Tahoe this summer. I thought I was in pretty good shape, but throwing a 47 lb bike around definitely left me with sore shoulders and arms. I had to take a few days off from riding that bike when we got back because my right shoulder was so sore (turns out I need to learn to whip both ways).


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

e-bikes have power meters, don't they? I see a lot of talk in this thread about HR data, but HR data is close to useless for measuring fitness (as a sole indicator). Is there anyone lurking in this thread who happens to know their pre-e power, and how that's varied with time spent on the e-bike?

The counterpoint to using HR is that yes, you could have ridden at 160 bpm average on the old bike, and over time you're seeing 160 bpm average on the e-bike, but your power numbers could be radically different, and thus your fitness be radically different over time.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

LMN said:


> Training load is quantified nowadays by something call TSS. (Training Stress Score). If is basically a measurement of how hard a training session is. If you know your threshold heart rate and upload your ride to a training analysis software it give you a numeric value of training load.
> 
> Last week I did the exact same ride on my XC-hardtail and E-bike. The scores were 98 for the hardtail and 86 for the E-bike. But because I did the ride faster on my e-bike the training load per hour of riding was pretty well the same.


You had less training load and for less time on the ebike?

Did i read that correct?


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

bdamschen said:


> Spent a week riding as much gnarly DH and even dirt jumps as I could on my ebike in Tahoe this summer. I thought I was in pretty good shape, but throwing a 47 lb bike around definitely left me with sore shoulders and arms. I had to take a few days off from riding that bike when we got back because my right shoulder was so sore (turns out I need to learn to whip both ways).


we do what ever amount of work we want, how and when we want.

We can move a yard of earth with a backhoe or with a shovel. We got the satisfaction of moving a yard of earth.

One bike has a motor and one doesnt. No diff than the backhoe and a shovel.

our motivation for use is the same.

wearing yourself out riding an xc bike is the same as wearing yourself out riding an ebike

Just go out and have fun.

So congrats for getting out and having some fun


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

Threads like this never come to a resolution because actual results can vary so widely depending upon a ton of variables. If you're ghost pedaling down the road on a cadence sensing bike, no, you aren't getting much exercise. However, on a torque sensing bike it's much easier to get a good workout and the sky is the limit--results will depend on the bike and how it's ridden. For me, I'm not finding a huge difference in cardio workout (vs time, not distance obviously) between my E and non-E bikes when riding for fun, if anything the nod goes to the E-bike. I seem to be able to maintain a higher average HR on it. Here's a comparison I did a while back as an example.

Riding the same 5-mile loop (nothing extremely difficult but quite a few ups and downs, ~400 ft of climbing) on our ranch twice, back to back each day, here's my best effort on a manual bike, from the second run:


















Doing the same thing on the same loop with the E-Bike, here were the stats from the second run:


















And I didn't do it by turning the motor down or off. That's a 1500W (Peak) motor, I was using the middle PAS mode (my choice for about 90% of "fun rides," ~850W Peak) and burned through 240 watt hours of battery. If you look at the average speeds, you can see that energy wasn't going to waste, more than doubling my average speed on a manual bike (guess which was more fun!).

I have this bike tuned for a pretty dynamic power output, similar to "Tour+" or "EMTB" modes on other brands, where if you pedal lightly you only get a little bit of power and you need to pedal pretty hard to get max power for a given mode--that certainly helps you get a good workout.

I've never come close to an average HR of 171 on any of my manual bike rides. I think the reason I can maintain a higher average on the E is because it helps reduce peaks and valleys, smoothing it out. Here's the manual ride:










And here's the E ride:










With the manual bike, the hills last longer and the HR spikes more quickly. I find I have a tendency once I reach the top of the hill, to take it easy down the other side to recover. With the E-bike, the hills don't last as long and you have the motor as a crutch to keep your HR from spiking out of control. I find myself pedaling hard down the other side of hills because I feel up to it and going fast is fun! So my theory is smoothing out the peaks and valleys allows me to maintain a higher average HR. You can see at one point I kept my HR over 180 for 3/4 of a mile...I can never do that on a manual bike. Maybe it's different for Roadies riding on a flat road where they can regulate speed/output, but offroad where the hills provide the resistance and they are where they are it's pretty difficult to regulate smoothly on a manual bike, for me, anyway.

So that's in line with what the OP posted. While it's certainly not universal, on the right bike if ridden hard one can certainly get at least an equivalent workout on an E-bike (again, vs. time, not distance) while going faster and riding farther.

All the above is with respect to cardio only. I think what some have said about leg strength/power is true. Simply going for a fast hard ride on the E-bike on a regular basis probably isn't going to be enough. If one is concerned about that he needs to make a point of riding some hills with the motor power turned down or even off. The button is right there and it's easy to do for anybody who wants to do it.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

So in cardio world is 17 minutes at 170bpm better or worse than 35 minutes at 158bpm?


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

That wasn't the point as it was specifically mentioned three different times in my post, I was demonstrating workout intensity--*VS. TIME*, *not* *DISTANCE*. When the goal is an equivalent workout and I want to ride the E-bike at that power level instead of a manual bike, I ride twice as far in the same amount of time (2 laps instead of one, etc).


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

time is the duration of the activity in seconds.

180bpm for 60 seconds is not better than 120bpm for 60minutes.

i had my blood pressure checked in the dr office and it was great. i told the nurse that i would meditate on the stress of driving our busy local highway for 2 minutes. then check it again. bp went up measureably and i never left my chair.

watching the greatest play of the superbowl from the couch can raise your heart rate.

i suspect that there was more at play here. run the same trail again at the same 8mph speed and see what happens on the ebike.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> time is the duration of the activity in seconds.
> 
> 180bpm for 60 seconds is not better than 120bpm for 60minutes.
> 
> ...


Except you are comparing relatively sedentary activity like driving a car or watching a scary movie and something excites you. Of course your HR, goes up. No one is denying that. How can you compare that to an ebike, that you have to pedal for motor to come on?

when I ride my ebike solo, I generally choose trail mode. My heart gets to within 5bpm from when I use to ride mtb Climbing. When I go downhill, my HR is the same level as before and higher then when climbing, because I love the DH! When I ride with my with other emtbs buddies, all bets are off and all of our HRs are pegged for the majority of the ride. This is climbing, so nothing really exciting going on except doing your best to keep up with the leader. Just like any other group rides.

For me, I'm looking for *FUN/EXERCISE* and not peak MTB shape. I think a lot of people fall into this category. I believe an emtb comes close to the same fitness value as a MTB, but you do lose some leg power.

The people against ebikes, tell the same stories: lazy people, cheaters, trail damage, trail closures, got to earn your downs and ebikes are for the old or wounded. Did I miss one? None of my ebike friend fit any of these descriptions as we all come from many years of MTB riding. We can all easily ride a MTB with out any issues, but like other people on this forum we ride for fun and exercise. This is coming from a person with over 30years of experience riding MTB and dirt bikes. Ebikes brings an even bigger smile to my face then either of those two activities. This is the main common theme you'll hear from just about every single emtb rider, more fun than they have ever had! For most people that don't own an ebike, find this hard to believe.

Me personally, I get up 4am Mon-Fri. 5am in the home gym for an hour workout and I try to get a ride in at least 2 times during the week, plus weekends. I don't train for max strength anymore, as I'm 52yrs old. I just rep and I rep with 225lbs on bench, squats and dead lifts, reps of ten. That's pretty good for any person at any age. So please stop assuming ebikers are *LAZY* and *UNFIT*!


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

Fuse6F said:


> time is the duration of the activity in seconds.


Yes, it is.



Fuse6F said:


> i suspect that there was more at play here.


Like what? Maybe I did a few lines of coke before getting on the bike?

If it makes you feel better, here are the stats from the first lap on the Ebike:



























I didn't push it as hard on that lap as I was still getting a feel for how fast I could cover that ground without killing myself, but it was still similar to the manual bike lap. Add the two together and you can get 40 minute average numbers. While the averages go down a bit, the point certainly still stands--I'm certainly not getting a more intense workout on the manual bike. For the way I like to ride, with _that_ bike, if I go on a "fun ride" for any period of time it isn't going to matter whether I'm on the Ebike or a manual bike as far as cardio fitness goes. The difference is I'll cover a lot more ground and have a lot more fun on the Ebike.



Fuse6F said:


> run the same trail again at the same 8mph speed and see what happens on the ebike.


You mean shut off the motor? I'm not sure what that would tell me about Ebikes. Even in the lowest assist mode, I think I'd need to take it pretty easy to only average 8 MPH on that course. Maybe I'll try that one of these days. Of course with an Ebike I do have that option--it can be a very useful "transportation device" in a way a manual bike can't. I can crank up the assist, take it pretty easy and get somewhere faster than an all out effort on a manual bike. Hell, if my legs are destroyed from walking up and down hills all day I could even throttle my way home requiring no effort at all. It's a useful tool.



mtbbiker said:


> For me, I'm looking for *FUN/EXERCISE* and not peak MTB shape. I think a lot of people fall into this category. I believe an emtb comes close to the same fitness value as a MTB, but you do lose some leg power.


Yeah, me too. I was a pretty decent distance runner in college (gasp, nearly 30 years ago!) so I'm well aware of what being in absolute top physical condition is all about. I'm also well aware of the diminishing returns one gets per hour of training as you approach it. Unless fitness is your hobby/obsession (not that there's anything wrong with that) or you're training for competition, at some point you're in "good enough shape." At that point I prefer to spend my time doing things that are more fun. Climbing a steep/technical hill at 5-10 MPH is a whole lot more fun than climbing it at 3 MPH....


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

Jack7782 said:


> With motor assistance, you can lower your saddle and shift your weight back to clean those "unridable hills" Way more fun than the hike-a-bike of the old days


Exactly. When you don't need to be in optimum pedaling position, you can lower the seat and lower the center of gravity of the bike by a large amount, keeping the front tire on the ground so you can climb steeper slopes. It's also much easier to maintain traction pedaling smoothly than it is "standing and mashing." I was pretty shocked when I got my Ebike at the slopes I could climb that a manual bike would have zero chance of making.

One of the many things the guys beating their chests about how much they "don't need" and Ebike don't understand--they're capable of doing things manual bikes are not. So they're only "not needed" if you don't want to do those things--in this case getting somewhere without having to push your bike. It reminds me of people who own sub-compact cars and brag about how they "don' need" a "truck." Well, if you never go offroad, haul anything large, tow anything...pickups are popular because they are useful for many things that simply can't be done with a small car. Much the same is true with Ebikes. Besides getting places you wouldn't even try on a manual bike, they're useful as "transportation devices" in ways a manual bike simply isn't. If I need to get from one side of our ranch to the other, I can jump on the Ebike and get there about as fast as I could in a side by side or a pickup. And I won't be too tired to do whatever I needed to do when I get there. My manual bikes simply can't do that job. OK, enough rant...


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

mtbbiker said:


> Except you are comparing relatively sedentary activity like driving a car or watching a scary movie and something excites you. Of course your HR, goes up. No one is denying that. How can you compare that to an ebike, that you have to pedal for motor to come on?


i didnt. i said that excitement raises your heartbeat. your feeling some additional effects of adrenaline or something ripping down the mtn at double the speed you normally ride it.

why not ride the same trail at ave 8mph then we get an apples to apples comparison.

same trail, same average speed, same rider, just a motor is the diff and we will see the diff in your heart rate. use the same assist mode you did earlier. dont sand bag it, pick a gear that gives the assist you have the bike set for, etc.

i predict a huge drop in heart rate on average.

as an aside....
today i took a friend on his first real mtb trail ride. by chance, we met his coworker and his coworker's wife on the trail on ebikes. later as the two of us carried along with our ride, i commented that we are likely burning 200w right here. that ebike has a 250w motor. so your coworker is essentially ghost pedalling right now. if he wanted. for the next two hours solid...

doubt he was getting the same workout we did no matter how fast he went down the mtn. but he might have had more fun!


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Fuse6F said:


> Why not ride the same trail at ave 8mph then we get an apples to apples comparison.
> 
> same trail, same average speed, same rider, just a motor is the diff and we will see the diff in your heart rate. use the same assist mode you did earlier. dont sand bag it, pick a gear that gives the assist you have the bike set for, etc.
> 
> i predict a huge drop in heart rate on average.


That's how I did my test. First hill climb on my bike. Second hill climb on the ebike at _same _speed. Heart rate averaged 20% lower.


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

Fuse6F said:


> i didnt. i said that excitement raises your heartbeat. your feeling some additional effects of adrenaline or something ripping down the mtn at double the speed you normally ride it.


OK, I see what you're getting at. Although there is certainly something to this, I don't think it's any big driver. A huge portion of the difference in time/average speed happens when going uphill. While going uphill at 10-12 MPH is certainly more fun than 3-4 MPH, it's not the most exhilarating thing to do on either bike. The most exhilarating thing to do on either is down really big/difficult hills, and there the speed difference isn't much. I checked the times down biggest hill on that route which is very rough, curvy with lots of really loose dirt, and the Ebike averaged 19.3 MPH while the manual bike averaged 17.8 MPH, so not a huge difference. But you are right, on smaller or less technical hills and flatter ground the Ebike averaging a higher speed (that's where the fun comes from!) certainly keeps you on your toes more than the manual bike so it is probably contributing.

But I think by far the more significant "other factor" is the upper body workout. Going faster over rough ground on a bike nearly twice as heavy gives a significantly more intense upper body workout. It's hard to measure with any data, but my arms, shoulders and core certainly feel the difference.



Fuse6F said:


> same trail, same average speed, same rider, just a motor is the diff and we will see the diff in your heart rate. use the same assist mode you did earlier. dont sand bag it, pick a gear that gives the assist you have the bike set for, etc.
> 
> i predict a huge drop in heart rate on average.


Of course it would. Like I said before, my Ebike has a lot of power and on the same PAS mode I would _have to_ sandbag it a great deal to keep the same average speed. Pedal with one leg only? Stop and have lunch along the way? It would certainly have nothing to do with fitness, or even "fun."

Of course I can, do and will ride the bike in such a manor quite a bit when using it as a "transportation device," another area in which Ebikes can be so useful. But at such times I'm not going to be wearing a HRM or bother to start my Garmin watch because...I'm doing something else that's more important at the time, using the bike as a tool--a "transportation device." Keeping the HR low when you just want to get somewhere is a benefit. But that's a completely different use case than riding for fun, fitness or "sport."

I guess for people who do a lot of group rides where they're slowing to the speed of the group this may come up on a "fun" ride, so I see how it could happen. But I don't personally do much of that so I have no data to share. I have gone on a few rides with slower riders, but each time I kept the motor shut off...and I was still waiting for them--doing it for their benefit, not mine.


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## Francine (May 26, 2004)

mlx john said:


> You take every opportunity to troll e-bikes.
> 
> Riding an E-mountain bike > road bike
> 
> ...


AMEN to that


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Another reason I had to get fitter is that I only have 4 friends I ever I ride with. All are much younger (up to 20 years younger) so if I start losing fitness, I can really tell on rides with them (none of them ride e-bikes, ever. One is an ex XC racer). I joined them after maybe 3-4 months on the e-bike and man, did I suffer! That was a nice wake-up call, I suppose.

That was one other reason I also had to get back on the regular bike and crank out those 2K-4K 10-30 milers when I could. My fitness is finally back to its peak but I'll keep going. I just can't use the e-bike as much anymore. I will use it today for a recovery ride where I can keep my HR low and just ride along nice and easy and enjoy the mountain scenery. We have a lot of newer e-bike riders here, but I'm old school and have no desire to make new friends, so I'll wait till I start running into the old guys on e-bikes.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

E-bikes would be funner with a throttle and pegs instead of cranks.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Nosdeho said:


> E-bikes would be funner with a throttle and pegs instead of cranks.


No doubt! But then we wouldn't have access to many of the trails we're allowed on with pedal assist.

Now, fasten your seatbelt...
=sParty


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Nosdeho said:


> E-bikes would be funner with a throttle and pegs instead of cranks.


I have one of those, it just has an internal combustion engine and about 50HP.


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## motox155 (Jan 27, 2006)

Flyer said:


> I rode my e-bike last year and I did maintain decent cardio. I probably used the middle or Trail setting most, with flats on Low at times. Then I hopped on my regular bike and holy moly...I had much less power. I could ride a longer time if I kept my power output really low. So this year, I had to just put the e-bike in the basement and ride my regular bike. Now my power is back and the one ride I did on my e-bike, the battery lasted way longer than usual. 😆. So the poor e-bike is in trouble, but I think I could do recovery rides on it. The e-bike makes me feel like I'm a really strong Pro rider, so there is that benefit too.


This is pretty much exactly how I felt. When I first bought mine I rode it a bunch. Did a lot of rides in Eco just to get a bit more of a workout and conserve battery. I wear a HR monitor so I could see right off I was maintaining a lower HR than I do on similar rides with the regular bike. When I started riding my regular bike again I could really notice my cycling fitness took a hit. I think mainly it's because on the E you just don't suffer, you always have that help available. Most people on E bikes are not going to start suffering on a climb in Eco, they are going to bump it up.

That being said, I still think Ebikes are awesome. Super fun and for a lot of people a great form of exercise. Some of my life long friends swear by them. Most of them have been mtn bikers for years but due to age, injuries etc. they gave up on it. E bikes get them back out there having fun, what it's all about. I still ride and completely enjoy my E maybe once a week. Or sometimes the wife will cruise it with me on my normal bike. Just got to make sure there's not too much climbing on those rides, or she'll drop me.


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## Telewacker (Oct 5, 2005)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I don't see the point in riding an emtb just to get the same hr training as a mediocre road ride.
> 
> If riding a mountain bike is just too hard, maybe get a road bike....and you can stay in z3 all week long, and get that fantastic workout you guys all rave about.


But boring af.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

motox155 said:


> This is pretty much exactly how I felt. When I first bought mine I rode it a bunch. Did a lot of rides in Eco just to get a bit more of a workout and conserve battery. I wear a HR monitor so I could see right off I was maintaining a lower HR than I do on similar rides with the regular bike. When I started riding my regular bike again I could really notice my cycling fitness took a hit. I think mainly it's because on the E you just don't suffer, you always have that help available. Most people on E bikes are not going to start suffering on a climb in Eco, they are going to bump it up.
> 
> That being said, I still think Ebikes are awesome. Super fun and for a lot of people a great form of exercise. Some of my life long friends swear by them. Most of them have been mtn bikers for years but due to age, injuries etc. they gave up on it. E bikes get them back out there having fun, what it's all about. I still ride and completely enjoy my E maybe once a week. Or sometimes the wife will cruise it with me on my normal bike. Just got to make sure there's not too much climbing on those rides, or she'll drop me.


if we look at things from an activity level, whether your fit/unfit, you will ride it until your fitness limits you. 

an e may provide the ride satisfaction distance/time without the suffering. overall fitness improvement in that scenario should quickly plateau.

people will work as hard on something as they want to. conceptually, picking an e (for most) is because it makes it e-sier so coming from that mindset to start with, i dont see them turning the motor off on a climb. they will turn it up.

but enough fuss... e or not, greet everyone with a smile and see what happens next!!!


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Nosdeho said:


> E-bikes would be funner with a throttle and pegs instead of cranks.


I guess if one was being pedantic you could say an ebike does have a throttle, you just have to constantly spin it! 

Now this is an ebike. Not sure my tow bar rack would hold it though.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

If I could ride that anywhere near my house I would have one!


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

alexbn921 said:


> If I could ride that anywhere near my house I would have one!


There are probably a dozen different places less than an hour of San Jose you can ride that legally. Also the neighbors would be much happier than ripping the trails/tracks on our normal motos.

But I don’t think you can buy them anywhere in the US.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Fitness difference beween ebike and old fashioned is whatever you want it to be.
Set the pas off or to minimal or to max, ride up a hill at minimal assist or max the power out.
I always avoided certain hills because I knew my hub motor at my power levels couldnt assist me up the hill in an easy manner. But now I prefer to get a good workout, but sometimes I dont feel like getting a good workout when a hill comes my way.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

matt4x4 said:


> Fitness difference beween ebike and old fashioned is whatever you want it to be.
> Set the pas off or to minimal


Yes, more watts from you - but at the expense of FUN - like driving a loaded minivan vs a BMW on a country road.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

RBoardman said:


> I have one of those, it just has an internal combustion engine and about 50HP.
> 
> View attachment 1951286





RBoardman said:


> I have one of those, it just has an internal combustion engine and about 50HP.
> 
> View attachment 1951286


Braaaaaap vs Zaaaaaap!


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

In ref to original question, riding with an e-bike is making me stronger! Guy i often ride with got one, i now dont need to wait for him. Is he getting in better shape, no. And then theres the groups ill sometimes join in where im lone Me-bike. They get me on the climbs and it pushes me to hammer and then when i catch up theres barely a pause before they take off. Takes me back to the years when first starting that youd just catch ip to the fast riders and then theyd take off. So as long as i make sure i recover, e-bikes are making me a stronger rider!


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

And then you have the 'ebikers' in NYC careening down the avenues at highway speed. Mopeds, really.


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## itsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Here is a mic drop for those who say it's the same workout as mountain bike:


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

itsky said:


> Here is a mic drop for those who say it's the same workout as mountain bike:


45 minutes! what's the reader's digest version?


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## itsky (Jul 26, 2011)

MSU Alum said:


> 45 minutes! what's the reader's digest version?


Less time than reading this thread!


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

MSU Alum said:


> 45 minutes! what's the reader's digest version?


The mtb version would be less than 20 minutes and far more anaerobic.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

D. Inoobinati said:


> The mtb version would be less than 20 minutes and far more anaerobic.


I figured it was just one of those videos where someone gets voted off the island.


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## itsky (Jul 26, 2011)

MSU Alum said:


> I figured it was just one of those videos where someone gets voted off the island.


It’s a good episode, I recommend. It’s on topic and good demonstration of the debate here.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

MSU Alum said:


> 45 minutes! what's the reader's digest version?


SPOILER ALERT... don't want to ruin it for people that want to watch. Don't read ahead if you don't want it ruined.












ebike guy starts 10 minutes after they do a 3 lap race, he still beats everyone and is able to have a nice conversation and joke around at the finish line VS everyone else who comes in collapses in exhaustion and can barely communicate because they are breathing so hard.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

We've got a problem of ebikers taking the safety's off and riding them on mountain bike trails like dirt bikes. So far this year a couple of dislocated body parts two concussions and a couple of yard sales. I am all for people having fun but these insurance companies want their money and will sue land managers and any one they can. We have responsible e-bike riders but this crew is giving them a bad name. One of them was running people in front of him off the trail. Like e-bikes because they are fun realize you are a representative of your sport and don't be a dick. Trail workers have enough problems I don't need to be the ref between ebikers and land managers too.


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

lone_tree said:


> I've heard a few people claim that there's a fundamental difference in the type of workout you get with a eMTB vs a regular MTB. I rented one for a couple of days once and I got a better workout than on my regular bike. Some of that I attributed to the novelty of it. But on a normal riding day, my goal would be to keep my cadence at a certain level. I'm not going to push myself less just because I have pedal assist. I'm just going to go farther and higher than without.
> 
> My question is: Is there any actual science showing differences in workouts between the two types of bikes?
> 
> ...


there is no fitness in ebikes


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