# Shout out for Revel Propulsion



## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

I installed a Revel on a Santa Cruz Hightower and I am very pleased with its performance and most of all how light it is.
I have ridden a Haibike/Bosch CX for 3 years and 2300 miles and the only comparison I can make with the Revel assist is to the Bosch CX.

I had Revel make me longer mounting plates so the motor is inside the triangle versus hanging down like an udder as would be the case with Bafangs........Revel (with stock length mounting plates) because of how the frames are shaped around the bottom bracket shell.


Haibike/Bosch with coil shock and coil converted fork weighs 53 pounds.

Hightower/Revel without coil shock or fork
31 + 10 = 41

The big plus with the Revel versus the Bafangs..........is that you can get a 30t narrow/wide chainring and a near perfect chain line.

Part of the reason the Revel is so light is that it comes with smaller than usual 380 wh battery.
By timing a moderately steep climb that takes about 6-1/2 minutes, the Revel makes the climb about 10 -15 seconds faster than the Bosch with pedal assist only and 30 seconds faster than the Bosch if I use the throttle plus maximum pedal effort for me.

If I were to do it again I would not pay the extra for the throttle because I do not use it 
plus the legal issues on some trails.
I have not done a throttle only climb without pedaling to assist.
I know it would slower than when I assist with peddling.

The Revel can be removed in say 5 minutes or less if you leave the side plates in place.
4 fasteners, 3 wire connections, battery and loosen the chain tensioner.

Plus I feel the Revel looks nice and simple


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

"if I use the throttle plus maximum pedal effort for me."

This doesn't make any sense to me as maximum pedal effort should be rewarded with maximum torque assist level and strange that the throttle provides that much more power? 

Don't you find the throttle to be useful for starting out? It's all I use mine for and I wouldn't own an eBike without one for that purpose alone. Also as a walk assist when necessary. I never use it for actually riding the bike once the PAS is active which is usually within the first 20' while I get my position right and start pedaling and in fact am way more apt to use my rear brake slightly to keep it active while timing my cranks via slowing cadence in tight situations. 

Once in awhile I do admit to using it to ford water crossings so I don't have to get my feet wet and a few times in rock gardens to avoid pedal strikes. 

Maybe post up a pic of your bike so we can see how nice and simple it looks.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

How about some pictures? I assume you can get bigger batteries? 
Thanks 


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## bplaizier (Feb 1, 2011)

mtbbiker said:


> How about some pictures? I assume you can get bigger batteries?
> Thanks
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree with the pictures. You know what they say, pictures or it didn't happen....!

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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I had the first generation Revel too, and constructed a 35 pound Kona that worked well for me (an old guy) but not for most on this forum.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Big wheel 

I asked Revel the same question and the answer they gave if I understand correctly is that the controller is programmed to give more assist when the throttle is used then when only pedal assist is used.
Seems like it was 550 watts in pedal assist and 750 is throttle assist.

I never thought about using the throttle to get started after riding the Bosch for 3 years without throttle.

Going thru water makes sense to use the throttle.

I have found that using the throttle is like driving a stick shift car which makes total sense, you need to be in the appropriate gear when starting out on the flat versus on a hill to allow the motor to spin up and not stress it.

I would gladly post photos if someone could tell me a simple way to do so with an I-phone.

The Revel also has the smallest display and assist selector that I have seen.

Highroad 2


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks so much for posting this review! Please post photos.

Paul at Revel has suffered through like 10 of my question filled emails, but I'm getting close to pulling the trigger.

The Revel seems pretty 'right sized' for my tastes.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Highroad, log onto mtbr on your phone. Select the attachment feature from the menu bar above







Hit "Add Files"

Hit "Browse"

Select your photo(s)

Hit "Upload" If your picture file isn't too big it will show in the lower bar

Hit "Done"

Get your cursor where you want the picture to be placed screen. Go back to the first icon and hit the down arrow and double click on the link and that should do it

As far as the throttle explanation goes I guess it makes sense to Paul but not to me....My TSDZ2 system seems to provide the same amount of throttle output no matter what mode I am in which is actually good because it is about the equivalent to the lower modes and for starting off you don't want it too be too abrupt, just an easy way to get the momentum flowing while you get settled aboard and start pedaling. Works well enough on flat and even steep terrain as I have miffed many times during a climb and gotten going again using it.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Ghost thread....


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

fos'l said:


> I had the first generation Revel too, and constructed a 35 pound Kona that worked well for me (an old guy) but not for most on this forum.


Your battery is tiny. Is that their standard 380 wh battery? If so, dang that's impressive.

Anyways, I'm going with the Revel unless there is some major development that allows me to keep my current cranks. I'm waiting for the quick release version. It's for my wife's bike, primarily for Bentonville trips, but I'm certain I'll play with it as well.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

I could perhaps see the approach that the OP suggested (inboard mounting) but an external mount like the Kona above would be crushed to pieces on some of our local rides.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

RickBullottaPA said:


> I could perhaps see the approach that the OP suggested (inboard mounting) but an external mount like the Kona above would be crushed to pieces on some of our local rides.


People overstate the ground clearance issue.

Here is a photo of my bike with the template for the Revel system taped in place, and a typical E-bike. Compare the location and clearance around ther cranks. The only difference is the add-on Revel system doesn't have plastic between the motor and the frame downtube. Otherwise, no difference. Now I'll admit that my Foxy is particularly well suited to adding an E- bike kit.










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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> People overstate the ground clearance issue.
> 
> Here is a photo of my bike with the template for the Revel system taped in place, and a typical E-bike. Compare the location and clearance around ther cranks. The only difference is the add-on Revel system doesn't have plastic between the motor and the frame downtube. Otherwise, no difference. Now I'll admit that my Foxy is particularly well suited to adding an E- bike kit.
> 
> ...


It's not clearance though, it's exposure. We have some heinous rock gardens around here and rock ledges that won't do much damage to an armored downtube but would not be nice to that motor housing.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Suns_PSD said:


> Your battery is tiny. Is that their standard 380 wh battery? If so, dang that's impressive.
> 
> Anyways, I'm going with the Revel unless there is some major development that allows me to keep my current cranks. I'm waiting for the quick release version. It's for my wife's bike, primarily for Bentonville trips, but I'm certain I'll play with it as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


That's the stock battery. The mounting system is impressive since it can be removed easily but is very secure for off road use.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Bigwheel said:


> "if I use the throttle plus maximum pedal effort for me."
> This doesn't make any sense to me as maximum pedal effort should be rewarded with maximum torque assist level and strange that the throttle provides that much more power?


That assumes the maximum torque assist level is equivalent to the max/peak watts. If it isn't, then turning up the throttle all the way may give just a bit of extra juice up the hill to get over tricky technical parts. This is an apples to oranges example, but I'm doing this with the front hub drive a lot more lately: around 400W of constant power uphill and then using the throttle to go over that, up to around 850W if I need more help up certain sections where 400W starts to slow down. This is only temporary as the front tire really starts to slip over about 500W (although not has much as you'd think) and I don't want to burn out the nylon gearing inside. Note that this is not torque assist-based, just as a disclaimer. But even if a mid-drive is tuned for 100% torque assist, it still in reality may not make max watts with max pedaling and/or pedal pressure. So the throttle could allow the rider to utilize those last unused watts at the top end.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Bigwheel sent me a message regarding how to send a photo and now I can’t find it and what he said to do is not working for me.

He said go to menu and find attachments.
Is menu the 3 horizontal lines on the top left? If so I cannot find attachments there.

I assume I am looking for the image of a paper clip to send a attachment.

Do I start by tapping on “reply to thread”?
Then tapping on the reply box which highlights it in blue.
Then type the message but how do you ad an attachment/photo?
Thanks
Highroad


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

highroad 2 said:


> I installed a Revel on a Santa Cruz Hightower and I am very pleased with its performance and most of all how light it is.
> 
> Haibike/Bosch with coil shock and coil converted fork weighs 53 pounds.
> 
> ...


First, their website could really use an upgrade. I get that it's a startup company, but next to zero information on their products and it looks like it was made for $100 under the table from some teenage programmer. They need a real, informative website.

I thought the motor and battery weighed 12 lbs total (8 + 4). Had to go to a different website just to even get those numbers.

The Bafang BSS02 mid-drive weighs 9.5 lbs.

My 850wH 48V HailongII battery weighs 9.0 lbs, that's 2.23x the watt-hours and 2.25x the weight. I guess if you don't mind spending another $300 for a 2nd 36V battery and putting it in your pack, it's an interesting mid-drive option.

But overall, unless you are just going for a short 10-15 mile ride, or a longer one just on pavement, I don't see a real advantage in weight loss.

The smallest 48V battery (that I've found) is 10.5 Ah and weighs 6.8 lbs.

So as a weight comparison: Revel 12 lbs total motor and battery, Bafang BSS02 16.3 lbs with smallest battery and on paper 33% more range.

If 4.3 lbs is really important then yeah the Revel is an interesting choice. But if you have to carry two batteries then that extra weight is the same as the Bafang, although that 4 pounds is in your pack and not on the bike. For 40-50 lb bikes, 4.3 lbs is a decent amount of weight loss but not night and day.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Rich
Actually the Revel weighs total of 10 pounds.
I only ride single track, prefer technical trails and my time allotment allows for 10-15 miles each ride.
I prefer my 41 pound Revel bike over the 53 pound Haibike on steep downhills and jump trails.
Some riders are so obsessed with weight that they rather ride a non assisted bike.
Serious riders which I am not, are willing to pay $1000/pound to make their bikes lighter.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

To me it's all about what feels the most like a true mountain bike. 

As such it needs to be as light as possible and with only a mild bump in power. I'm already a strong climber, I just want my wife to be able to keep up on the long climbs but she should still be working her ass off. It's a bicycle, not a motorcycle after all.

The net 9-10# gain with the Revel is a big deal as my full Enduro bike only weighs 30.2#s ready to ride and my wife's is 27# I believe. The more that weight gain is reduced, the better. It also allows me to keep our current specs. Not requiring the addition of any heavier or slower rolling components.

The power density of the Revel battery pack, is really impressive and very right sized imo.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

RickBullottaPA said:


> It's not clearance though, it's exposure. We have some heinous rock gardens around here and rock ledges that won't do much damage to an armored downtube but would not be nice to that motor housing.


I ride very technical and rough terrain on a regular basis, but don't recall whacking my downtube ever. I hit my bash guard often for sure, and rocks flick up on my frame often.

Either way, this kit is 90% for my wife's bike and frankly she isn't smashing anything.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

highroad 2 said:


> Rich
> Some riders are so obsessed with weight that they rather ride a non assisted bike.
> Serious riders which I am not, are willing to pay $1000/pound to make their bikes lighter.


Crazy isn't it. I'd wonder how much total my ebike hub weighs including battery. DD Hub would be easy to find out, but my battery is huge and stuffed into the triangle. Some people can afford that $1000/pound, or pay $3k+ without the blink of an eye on a store bought ebike. Weight concerns would mean, an under-powered motor, and a small battery. I can think of a rc motor friction drive that is uber small, how many tires would be trashed though. The Revel sure looks nice for sure, I have not seen it prior to the OP post. For casual riding, weight is not too much of a concern as a technical trail rider or a work commuter, or a vehicle-less ebike rider.

Either way, whatever is the best choice, for a reasonable price and gets the job done.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

matt4x4 said:


> Crazy isn't it. I'd wonder how much total my ebike hub weighs including battery. DD Hub would be easy to find out, but my battery is huge and stuffed into the triangle. Some people can afford that $1000/pound, or pay $3k+ without the blink of an eye on a store bought ebike. Weight concerns would mean, an under-powered motor, and a small battery. I can think of a rc motor friction drive that is uber small, how many tires would be trashed though. The Revel sure looks nice for sure, I have not seen it prior to the OP post. For casual riding, weight is not too much of a concern as a technical trail rider or a work commuter, or a vehicle-less ebike rider.
> 
> Either way, whatever is the best choice, for a reasonable price and gets the job done.


If you run a hub e-bike, I suspect we are participating in 2 entirely different sports.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Highroad2's bike with a Revel kit:










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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Also, is that a remote lock out you rigged up in your shock? Nice!

What are the zip ties on the left side chain stay? Is that some sort of speed sensor? Is this required with the kit?

That looks like a lot of battery to have only gained 20#s. What is it?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Here is what I don't get: I understand why the motor must have a free wheel, so that the rider can pedal a dead motor with little motor resistance. 
However, if you are aren't ever going to utilize a throttle, where the motor would spin and the pedals would remain still, if you don't ever want to do that, why have an additional freewheel at the cranks?

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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Here is what I don't get: I understand why the motor must have a free wheel, so that the rider can pedal a dead motor with little motor resistance.
> However, if you are aren't ever going to utilize a throttle, where the motor would spin and the pedals would remain still, if you don't ever want to do that, why have an additional freewheel at the cranks?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


On my Shimano motor, when I stop pedaling, I noticed the motor doesn't stop instantly and the chainring will turn another 1/4 turn to 1/2 turn depending on mode.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

mtbbiker said:


> On my Shimano motor, when I stop pedaling, I noticed the motor doesn't stop instantly and the chainring will turn another 1/4 turn to 1/2 turn depending on mode.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So that's understandable.

There is room for serious improvement here. If they can get a motor that's very responsive to power no longer be applied or even include a simple magnetic crank speed sensor, then they can run a longer chain and drive the cranks on 1 chain, similar to how 'Lightest e-bike motor sets up their standard mount.

The goal of course is for the product to be less expensive (no crankset, 2nd chain or BB needed), lighter, less complicated, higher end cranks of the length you prefer can be maintained, etc...

Photo attached of single chain system for reference.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

There are after-market motors with the crank set and motor as one piece, aside from the store bought ebikes. But similarly the after-market motors with crankset and motor as one piece, need specific frame as its not a bolt-on to any frame. I believe they changed the layout, where they had a belt drive system on one side, and the normal chain drivetrain on the right. I did not follow the changes, but was mentioned in the es forum posts. In depth reviews, obviously on the other website forum. 

The Elite peaked my interest a few months ago, browsing the usual spots to grab affordable ebike motors. I just didnt like that the new fad is enduro style bicycles, with the box in the middle, thats never been my cup of tea. But the Elite bicycle they sold was not enduro style, it was just a normal full suspension bicycle with a mounting for the crank motor one piece. It has a wide options of motors to suit whatever requirement you desired.

I'd still prefer the Revel or similar BBSHD, BBS02, Cyclone-TW. But the sleekness of not having a motor stick out, and having it as one with the crank is desirable. The motor ends up looking like the crank, which slips by just about everybody, as do store bought major mid drives brands.

Having rotated the motor to right above the crank, is a solution to not damaging it, but impedes on a battery placement in the triangle. 

We need more options for the crank/motor one piece, but its hard to standardize anything in the ebike industry, as the makers are a dime a dozen in China, trying to make a buck.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Suns 
Thanks for posting photos for me.
I wanted to show what the motor looks like when mounted inside the triangle.
A hard tail would probably have room for the battery also.

I ride with a guy that has a Bafang BBSHD.
When we approach fallen trees and rock ledges he gets off and carries his bike for fear of damaging the hanging down motor.
I enjoy the challenge and only fear damaging a chain ring.

Zip ties on left chain stay are for the speed sensor.
The speed sensor is not required on the Revel; it is needed only if you want speedo or odometer info.
Whereas on my Bosch CX, if the speed sensor is damaged you will be pedaling the hard way out.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> On my Shimano motor, when I stop pedaling, I noticed the motor doesn't stop instantly and the chainring will turn another 1/4 turn to 1/2 turn depending on mode.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I find this fact useful as a shifting aid personally. I don't have a shift sensor so I just back off on the pedals and let the over run make the shift. Works every time and there is a bit of loss of momentum but it's best to anticipate shift points as I have always done to pro-long drivetrain life.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

For those considering a kit, according to the site (and Paul on ES), they're sold out.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

fos'l said:


> For those considering a kit, according to the site (and Paul on ES), they're sold out.


Sold his entire order out in like 24 hours. Next batch in June.

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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Other small motor options are like the TSDZ2.
Not sure of the motor removability factor. The one side looks easy to unbolt, but who knows about the other side.

Revel is a good, if its in stock when you want to purchase it. With the covid-19, who knows what delays will happen, email, PM on ES.


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

Highroad 2 how are you liking the revel? How many miles do you get out of it?


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Nashwillis
I will do my best to simply answer your questions. 

I can only compare the Revel performance to the two Haibike/Bosch bikes I have been riding for a few years.

I very pleased with the Revel in that it allows me to assist quality Mt bikes that I already own and end up with a package that is 10 pounds lighter than what you can buy with equal assist performance and battery mileage.

The assist feel of the Revel is very similar to the Bosch in what I will describe as a natural riding feel because they are torque assist.

I have ridden a BBSHD bike which is 20 pounds heavier, has twice the range and more assist and cadence assist.

I prefer less weight and the torque assist feel


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

I have reached out to Paul a coupe times to see when this would be available but no response. I will probably get a LIFT-MTB kit as I am not sure any other options that can fit in the triangle.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Nashwillis
I am also interested in the Lift-mtb kit if they have one that works with the 120mm bottom bracket of a fat tire bike.
I would have preferred a Revel but it is not available for 120mm BB.
Please share what you know about the Lifts.
Weight, cost , torque sensing assist?, ease to install, availability, battery options........
Thanks
Highroad


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

Highroad,

I don't know all the technical specs but will do my best. They have 5 different battery sizes so you can find what you need. https://www.lift-mtb.com/accueil-faq-english/choose-your-battery/

They have a bottom and internal frame options. They are a throttle system that you have to add on a pedal sensor when checking out. That is one reason I wanted to do revel to make sure everything was legal on trails ( I also don't know all the laws but think throttle isn't legal, I could be wrong). https://www.lift-mtb.com/accueil-faq-english/p-a-s-pedelec/

Take on or off in 10 minutes, I think it is about like revel. It weighs around 7lbs I think
https://www.lift-mtb.com/accueil-faq-english/weight/

They other motor I looked to isn't out yet. 
https://electrek.co/2020/04/08/new-...c-bike-conversion-kit-offers-up-to-1200w/amp/


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

highroad, how is the long term review in the revel? Thanks


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

even though this thread might be old i'm glad i found it. looking to get into the e side of biking and can't find a heckler demo anywhere so i feel like giving the industry a middle finger by possibly going the way of mounting a motor to my rascal. highroad2 thanks for showing it's possible to mount it in the triangle even with a dt mounted shock. revel propulsion's site is a joke as mentioned earlier. does this guy want to be in business at all? anyhow, how are you liking the setup, how many hrs/miles on it, any issues, and how is the battery life? i guess i'll try touching base with him, but seems like i'll hear crickets.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

On the contrary, I've found Paul extremely accessible, friendly and helpful. Additionally, there are YouTube videos on all aspects of installation.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

There are high end cranks out there meant for normal bikes that have freewheels built in to them. Intend makes a set as does someone else.

I had reached out to Paul sometime ago about using these instead of the hokey *ss cranks that are common on these conversion kits. He had concerns about the total cost getting really up there. I'd like to see him use a high end crank with the freewheel built in, and only 1 chain instead of 2.

The kit really needs to be updated imo. Paul would just need to source a modern torque sensing bottom bracket instead of these crappy square taper ones. I'm sure an email to a manufacturer in China could get that part done, unless it has already been done by one of the competitors.

My wife's Mondraker is absolutely perfect for an add on e-kit, because of the shape of the frame. I could have her on a low powered e-bike that weighed about 35#s which would just be phenomenal.

Hoping the kit gets updated in time.


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