# Non Skid wood walkway



## dfrancefort (Sep 25, 2004)

Need to build another low walkway at a local park and the land manager wants it non skid for when wet and in the winter. The decking will be 5-1/4 PT decking. The walkway spans a wet area and will be around 60 feet long. Any recommendations for making the surface non skid and needs to be mountain bike and dog paw friendly? Was thinking the metal lathing for stucco, which I have used ion some log rides, it comes in 4x8 foot sheets and is easily cut up into strips and nailed down with roofing nails. Not sure if that is too sharp. Also was thinking, chicken wire.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Polyurethane , sprinkle in sand when wet.


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*rough cut decking*

People are going to suggest all types of solutions, but the best and easiest is to use rough cut pressure treated deck. The surface isn't slick so you don't need anything added to it.

Ben


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

metal is tough on dogs feet and does not seem to last. rough cutting decking splinters and wears out faster... the best method i used was with roofing cement as glue and high quality shingles nailed down with galvanized roofing nails. it's also cost effective and easy to apply. just make sure you goop on enough roofing cement to cover the bottom of the cut shingle (3"x shingle width) and space your roofing nails every 2"-3" inches. even if the shingle breaks the roofing cement will hold it. i've also used old mtb tires with this method, though it looks a little bit rough.










of course you can put on as many traction strips as you want...


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Rough Cut Decking !*

Okay, so your answer is Shingles, man I will go to battle with you over this one, keep the garbage out of the WOODS!! All of the structures at Santos and a number of other projects I have worked on use rough cut decking and NONE of them are splintered and warn out, they all still have amazing traction, even with mold growing on some of them because of all of the moisture. These are heavily ridden structures at destination spots, not just some backyeard project. Trust me find rough cut decking, everything else is amature.


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## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

*Rough Cut Cedar*

Here in Indiana, we found a local saw mill that can supplie rough cut cedar. True 2"x6"x8'. The rough cut provides traction and the bridges look great.


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## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

Rough split cedar if you have access to it. Grippy even when wet, dog paw friendly, lasts a long time, looks good too! :thumbsup:


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

redriderbb said:


> Okay, so your answer is Shingles, man I will go to battle with you over this one, keep the garbage out of the WOODS!! All of the structures at Santos and a number of other projects I have worked on use rough cut decking and NONE of them are splintered and warn out, they all still have amazing traction, even with mold growing on some of them because of all of the moisture. These are heavily ridden structures at destination spots, not just some backyeard project. Trust me find rough cut decking, everything else is amature.


oh bs, what works for you might not work for someone else. i should qualify by saying dimensional lumber. i have deck in over 5 years and going strong. where people have rough cut it all fell apart. in my neck of the woods the wood comes from the hopeless despot. we don't have the option of using split cedar or the like. the cost of buying cedar to use is insane (most projects are payed for by ourselves). all the tree's where cut out over 100 years ago and if you are lucky enough to find a cedar deadfall big enough the conservation area won't let you mill/split it.


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## Megashnauzer (Nov 2, 2005)

http://www.trex.com/
i have not used it but i think it would work.


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

Megashnauzer said:


> http://www.trex.com/
> i have not used it but i think it would work.


it is a good idea, the trail structures can even have a waste content from the trash generated in that area. the only problem is it will be slippery to a certain extent unless there can be a texture added to the surface during manufacturing (can be done). with a galvanized steel substructure you can make the whole bridge recyclable... the cost will be high though...


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

singlesprocket said:


> it is a good idea, the trail structures can even have a waste content from the trash generated in that area. the only problem is it will be slippery to a certain extent unless there can be a texture added to the surface during manufacturing (can be done). with a galvanized steel substructure you can make the whole bridge recyclable... the cost will be high though...


Insanely high cost .


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Time to Battle...*

Okay, the home depot is not your only option. It is a matter of laziness and cheapness on your part...don't ever skimp on materials, that is rule number one. Where are you located, give me a general area if it scares you to tell me the exact town. I will hunt for a supplier for you and list rough cut suppliers on here. You should also look into manufacturing your own planking if money is a huge issue. I know you can't do it there in you park, but you could find someone who has some hardwoods to take down and either take them to a mill or split them with a few gluts and mauls yourself. Also look up a froe, mans best friend when it comes to building your own decking. Your excuses are amature, seriously, don't use crap like shingles and wire for tration, learn how to do it right.

Ben


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

redriderbb said:


> Okay, the home depot is not your only option. It is a matter of laziness and cheapness on your part...don't ever skimp on materials, that is rule number one. Where are you located, give me a general area if it scares you to tell me the exact town. I will hunt for a supplier for you and list rough cut suppliers on here. You should also look into manufacturing your own planking if money is a huge issue. I know you can't do it there in you park, but you could find someone who has some hardwoods to take down and either take them to a mill or split them with a few gluts and mauls yourself. Also look up a froe, mans best friend when it comes to building your own decking. Your excuses are amature, seriously, don't use crap like shingles and wire for tration, learn how to do it right.
> 
> Ben


ok mountain man...

it's not crap if the system works, lasts, is solid... so i guess every house/structure built with these materials is trash? 
downtown toronto... knock yourself out to make it cost effective


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Local sources...don't skimp*

http://www.centralfairbank.com/cedar.html toronto lumber supplier. Also does PT stuff.

http://www.torontowoodworkingshow.com/resawingyourownlumber.htm a lumber show that comes through toronto. These guys would be a good network to talk to about materials, log home builders might even have scraps you could get for free.

http://maps.google.com/places/ca/toronto/steeles-ave-w/6815/-alpha-lumber-mills-ltd

Lumber Project Inc.-- http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...,-79.543762&spn=1.058905,2.246704&z=8&iwloc=A

Okay there are four leads. Have you already tried all of these sources, or do you only know about HD, that place is a joke when it come to Lumber and for the record, shingles were never intended to be walked or ridden on. Man, I am not trying to personally insult you, but this whole discussion is one that raises my hackles, and we will just say I am tired of the trash that is out there. Please call these sources and ask if they have or have knowledge of rough cut, full-dimensional materials, that is what you want in either PT or Cedar, since you are in Canada. Good luck in the hunt, and remember DO NOT SKIMP ON MATERIALS...and the galvi nails are not intended to be directly in contact with the elements, they are usually layered under the shingles on a roof, before building trails I did a fair bit of roof work, so I know all about tar paper babies.

Ben


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

redriderbb said:


> http://www.centralfairbank.com/cedar.html toronto lumber supplier. Also does PT stuff.
> 
> http://www.torontowoodworkingshow.com/resawingyourownlumber.htm a lumber show that comes through toronto. These guys would be a good network to talk to about materials, log home builders might even have scraps you could get for free.
> 
> ...


yeah let me open wallet here and buy lumber from a boutique yuppy contractor supplier (better be cheaper then 25 cents a liner ft) and have you been to the woodworking show here in town? i have and it is not what you think. my building techniques are sound and do work for my location (and been proven to last). your pretty arrogant and closed minded in your assumptions that this does not work or my work building technique is shoddy. as a matter of fact i got the idea looking at old wood bridge and railroad trestle around here. since they are still around... i've also used a similar technique in a couple free stall dairy farms near ashville/gastonia nc to stabilize surfaces when i was in the ag biz. annnd the dynamic point load of a mtber is a feather compared to the sharp hooves of a monster holstein...


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## HarryCallahan (Nov 2, 2004)

redriderbb said:


> Okay, the home depot is not your only option. It is a matter of laziness and cheapness on your part...
> Ben


No need to be abusive. It undercuts anything helpful you might say.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

.........:thumbsup:


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Stand by what I say...*

I know it is brash. But, like I said, turns up my hackles. I am in the Asheville area, with an E. I am sure you feel confident in what you have done. My point is this: If you are going to build a wooden structure don't skimp on materials, what you have had to do is amature, as I stated above. If it were pro you would buy the right materials for what you need. The OP is asking about non skid solutions - THE BEST is to use rough cut lumber. Your solution is a simple tar band-aid pun intended. You cannot possibly argure that for a riding surface it is BETTER to use a cheap surface treatment, than it is to use a rough cut material. I will stand by that statement ROUGH CUT LUMBER IS THE !! BEST !! SOLUTION. Everything else is compromise. Your compromise is money...and for the record Home Depot is not your only option...as you stated.

Ben - sorry to offend.


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

HarryCallahan said:


> No need to be abusive. It undercuts anything helpful you might say.


and rough hewn wood is not a option in all areas, nor should it be considered the
the only best option... my money is on stone work... but you have to be flexable with the materials you have at your local and utilize them in the best possible and innovative ways...


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## thumpduster (Nov 19, 2008)

redriderbb comes across as a jerk, and I don't agree with the 'tude, but my experience with shingles as traction enhancers is that they are poor materials for the application. 

I used to pay for trail materials myself, too. These days I'd rather spend a little time fundraising at local shops and from friends (everybody knows some doctor/lawyer types who ride) and spend other's money on quality stuff than skimp on materials or build quality. (ahem, which I've done in the past...)

Singlesprocket, I don't think you're lazy, if you were you wouldn't be out doing trail work. But if its a matter of what to buy with a limited budget, maybe expanding the budget would offer more options. Have you ever asked home depot (or Lowes, or 86, or...) for a donation? We did, thinking they wouldn't even give us the time of day. Two truckloads of lumber, fasteners, and a new sledge hammer later we were mighty glad we asked.

BTW, if rough cut just isn't around my vote goes for treated lumber cross-hatched with a circular saw blade set to cut 3/8" deep. Do what you want, but don't take the burden of purchasing materials all on yourself. Work smarter, not poorer.


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## HarryCallahan (Nov 2, 2004)

woodway said:


> Rough split cedar if you have access to it. Grippy even when wet, dog paw friendly, lasts a long time, looks good too! :thumbsup:


Woodway, that is a very cool looking structure.

To the OP, does it have to be wood? It sounds like part of your route has to be a bridge. Or could you do a raised surface trail built on top the ground? I've seen a causeway in my area built across a seep zone. The causeway is two parallel lines of pressure treated lumber, with filter fabric on the soil surface and baserock and fines filling the space between the two lines of lumber that form the edges.


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Thumpduster.*

Well stated and susinct.

Ben


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Utility companies can also be valuable resources , they usually have a fund for community projects . Good luck .


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## thumpduster (Nov 19, 2008)

A fund or a big ass pile of utility poles out back. Bingo.


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## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

If you are a registered non-profit, you can also apply for a Home Depot "building better communities" grant. We just applied for one for a project we are doing in a local park, and I am hopeful we can make the cut!

http://corporate.homedepot.com/wps/portal/Grants

We are lucky that around here (Seattle Area) it's pretty easy to find Cedar rounds for free. Rough split, they make great decking.

Here is a photo of another Cedar decked bridge we built that spans a seasonally wet area. It's about 130 feet long, and we gave it the twists and undulations to make it more fun to ride. The bridge has been in place for almost a year, and the decking remains nice and grippy.


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## Berkley (May 21, 2007)

I like rough cut wood. In my experience, it is available almost everywhere - any lumber yard should have some. If you ask them, they can often supply you with flawed lumber (I forget the technical term for it). It is flawed in that it is imperfect for most other building purposes (may be warped etc.) but will work fine for making mountain biking TTFs.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Try splitting a 4X4 & see what you get. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

redriderbb said:


> Okay, the home depot is not your only option. It is a matter of laziness and cheapness on your part...don't ever skimp on materials, that is rule number one. Where are you located, give me a general area if it scares you to tell me the exact town. I will hunt for a supplier for you and list rough cut suppliers on here. You should also look into manufacturing your own planking if money is a huge issue. I know you can't do it there in you park, but you could find someone who has some hardwoods to take down and either take them to a mill or split them with a few gluts and mauls yourself. Also look up a froe, mans best friend when it comes to building your own decking. Your excuses are amature, seriously, don't use crap like shingles and wire for tration, learn how to do it right.
> 
> Ben


Amen to that. We don't have cedar forests around me (Central NY) but we manage. Just got a bunch of below-grade lumber DONATED by a local lumber mill/specialty woods distributor. All that took was a few minutes to find the place's number, a fairly-well-written email to the man in charge, and a 5-minute phone call. And that's just a college student asking for it.

Shingles belong on the roof of a house. Not on a falling-apart bridge in the middle of otherwise attractive singltrack. Use the shingles to build a lean-to in which to store your tools for cutting/splitting wood (then you still get to use your shingles, hooray!). I've seen chicken wire and the like put to good use, to me, the fewer layers you have, the fewer layers need to be fixed/replaced five years down the road. Just my two pennies. Cheers!

Sam


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

i appreciate the info, though the area i build in is very urban. (not alot of lumber mills)
i have used scrap steel in the past to build bases (see pic) and hybrid steel wood laminations.










around here we have to be careful of our sources of wood due to the asian long horn beetle. https://www.toronto.ca/parks/asian-long-horn-beetle.htm. knowing the wood is 100% clean (no maple etc) is important. every piece of wood is stained and roofing cement is used as an adhesive between laminations.

example of a hybrid steel/wood ramp/drop installed










small bridge structure with my glued shingle method... high traffic area with trail runners/hikers/dogs/mtbers. no degradation/delamination to traction surface.


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## Woodman (Mar 12, 2006)

thumpduster said:


> redriderbb comes across as a jerk, and I don't agree with the 'tude, but my experience with shingles as traction enhancers is that they are poor materials for the application.
> 
> Ben is not a jerk, to the contrary he is one of the best guys out there and is willing to help anyone. He did some research on locating rough cut PT deck boards and shared with all, that took some work.
> 
> ...


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

If you are building in a public park of some sort it's a given that you should probably go with a more natural look. That being said my profession is a roofer and i have created a few bridges using shingles and it is the best traction you can get for a wooden structure bar none. Making sure you round the corners and nail it correctly, it's a hundred times better than chicken wire.

But it is a bit ghetto haha.

That being said we considered using a granulated torch down application on some structures at Colonnade, but i personally was not keen on advocating for it. When the granules wore down then you are left with a rubberized tar patch where you can re-heat and add more granules, but we just never moved on it, and i'm glad for a few reasons. One of them being it would likely be me going back with a torch and adding more granules all the time haha.


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## mtbikernc69 (Mar 23, 2004)

I can tell you what I've used and you can take what you want from it. First, if you're building a walkway in a public park that's going to be wide with MTBs on it I would suggest using 2x lumber instead of 5/4. Yes the 5/4 will probably work OK, but I've found I like to over build these types of structures. Plus it will be stronger and last longer and most importantly...it will help CYA if it is in a remote area that doesn't get inspected on a regular basis.

Now on to the grip. I use an exterior, flat latex paint and have it tinted an earth tone. I actually use a color called "earth". It's a med to dark brown and blends in quite well with the trail surface. I then add play sand and apply with a brush. Don't use a roller cause it clumps up and doesn't spread the sand evenly. My formula is 1 gallon of paint with 20 lbs of sand in a 5 gallon bucket. It's help up for at least 3 years so far in a high wear application. I don't recommend metal lathe (dogs feet, falling pedestrian/cyclist) and I don't recommend shingles as they don't give as good a grip and look out of place in a natural setting. IMHO shingles belong on a roof, not a trail. 

Here's a picture of the finished product. I used tape on the edges to define the boundaries of the bridge and add my own artistic flare (I know, it looks kind of ghey).


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## Woodman (Mar 12, 2006)

Sound advice for sure. I also really don't like anything under 2" for deck boards. One of the advantages of a 2" rough sawn (whether PT-Pine or something like white oak) is you get a full 2" board and these are strong as hell.

I have seen a number of different paint applications with an additive, saw this when I was doing some work up in Dayton OH a month or so back. This works pretty good in all the applications I have seen. One note however: be careful with your paint if working near water.

I recognize the TTB on the bridge, now I have another reason to get to Fisher Farm to check out the trails and the fine work of the Tarheel Trail-Blazers. Maybe when I come down to Charlotte for a day next week (weather dependent).

Woody


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## dburatti (Feb 14, 2004)

Woodman said:


> I have seen a number of different paint applications with an additive, saw this when I was doing some work up in Dayton OH a month or so back.
> 
> Woody


Were you at the Five Rivers Metro Parks Huffman Park?

D


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## mtbikernc69 (Mar 23, 2004)

Thanks, Woody. It was actually Mike Riter that turned me on to that. We're building 6 more bridges on the new Phase III at Fisher. We got a $7000 REI grant to build and put Water bOB to work for 3 weeks to boot!

You should see the trail of PT wood I just picked up.... Woa!...


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## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

*Eagle Scout Project*

I had an eagle scout looking for a project. They did the framing today.










And they had more workers than needed for the bridge so I intoduced them to bench cutting.










Rough cut decking is on order.

Paul


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## YELLA-ONE (Dec 7, 2009)

I would have to agree with Singlesprocket on this one , it is awfully hard to come by rough cut lumber in Toronto for a decent price . I just finished building a 60' ladder bridge to 6' drop just the other month , all decking was dimensional lumber from Home depot . I was lucky in the fact that I bought "seconds" (in other words , crap that nobody else will buy) and I still shelled out $270 in lumber and about another $240 on nails , and people donated even more nails (about 4 boxes , aprox $100) so that brings my build to $510 . 
Had I used rough cut lumber I'm pretty sure the costs would have double for the lumber , so that would have brought the total cost $780 !!! I am not going to spend that kind of money on a build just because it the "best option" get a life !! 
I did manage to get some donations after it was built ($80) and I was also lucky that there was an old fence that I could reclaim the posts of , they became the supports and stringers . Had I needed to buy all the supplies I'm pretty sure I would have been out of pocket to the tune of approximately $1400 !!

I just want you to remember that we live in The Largest City in Canada with a population of 5,113,149 and the people that run this city would not hesitate to tare all our builds out at any given minute . So that means what we build we must say goodbye to the moment we finish them , because they could disappear the next day . But we don't let that stop us , but we do try and do it on the cheap , and I am pretty sure you would agree with our building technique given our situation 

Heres the build that I have been talking about


































I have been toying with the idea of scoring the decking with a chainsaw then brushing on thinset (the stuff you would use to stick down floor tiles) it sticks to wood REALLY well and is durable and grippy as all heck.......just think fresh sidewalk :thumbsup: 
I wouldn't do it to the whole ladder , I would do the climb and from the bank that leads to the drop all the way to the edge . But I have to wait for winter to go away before I get a chance to give it a try . What do you guys think ? Or dare I ask !? :lol:

Paul


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Guess I pissed off the Canadians*

When backed against a wall with no choice but dimensional lumber my vote is for cross hatching the wood (Only if you are using a 2x dimensional piece or bigger. Again adding more surface treatment is not a good option in my opinion. We surface treated a few things at Santos as experiments, but the suface treatment didn't last, if you use ACQ the wood typically does not allow adhesives to stick very well.

That bridge looks pretty good, I like the timber frame-ish base, it would be better if you used a different framing joint, for better vertical support, but hey don't want to piss you guys off. It is kind of funny through that you had a bunch of free wood poles you could have planked, but instead bought slick dimensional tread for the top, but hey I don't want to piss you off. I have worked all over the place and the only time I have been forced to use dimensional lumber was while working for a NASCAR race team in Charlotte, they were sponsored by Home Depot, so I understand. BUT ROUGH CUT LUMBER IS THE BEST OPTION FOR TRACTION AND APPEARENCE. I don't undestand why you guys just can't admit that, everything at Whistler is rough cut cedar, except the plywood, but hey don't want to piss you guys off.

And it sounds like no matter how much you spend you guys are throwing your money away anyhow. I would, personally, invest more time in asking people to donate for your little projects rather than use subpar materials, but that's just me, if I do it, I do it well.

Ben


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## YELLA-ONE (Dec 7, 2009)

redriderbb said:


> When backed against a wall with no choice but dimensional lumber my vote is for cross hatching the wood (Only if you are using a 2x dimensional piece or bigger. Again adding more surface treatment is not a good option in my opinion. We surface treated a few things at Santos as experiments, but the suface treatment didn't last, if you use ACQ the wood typically does not allow adhesives to stick very well.
> 
> That bridge looks pretty good, I like the timper frame-ish base, it would be better if you used a different framing joint,better vertical support, but hey don't want to piss you guys off. It is kind of funny through that you had a bunch of free wood poles you could have planked, but instead bought slick dimensional tread for the top, but hey I don't want to piss you off. I have worked all over the place and the only time I have been forced to use dimensional lumber was while working for a NASCAR race team in Charlotte, they were sponsored by Home Depot, so I understand. BUT ROUGH CUT LUMBER IS THE BEST OPTION FOR TRACTION AND APPEARENCE. I don't undestand why you guys just can't admit that, everything at Whistler is rough cut cedar, except the plywood, but hey don't want to piss you guys off.
> 
> ...


Ben , I would have to agree with you that natural is better......but in cities like Toronto it is almost impossible to come by , and ALL builds are rouge . I honestly would have liked to split all the cedar posts for decking but there just wasn't enough , so I settled for using it for the under structure (longevity in mind) and really had no other option for the decking .

The thinset that I am talking about adheres best to untreated wood (just think of what you would use as subflooring when dealing with tiles) and if it didn't adhere well to wood all tiled floors would come loose within months of laying them (I would know , I am a contractor by trade) 
In terms of support for the structure......it is solid as a rock , I had 15 people standing up on the drop platform and there was absolutely no movement.....none , nada , nothing :thumbsup: 
All of the posts are more then 3' into the ground with the exception of the 4 posts holding up the platform , they are 4-5' in the ground . Even Jay Hoots was impressed with the quality of the build when he was in Toronto on some consultation work for the city.......I know shameless name dropping eh !?

And Ben you are not pissing us off . We are just trying to explain ourselves because we seem to have different opinions and we also live in a different climate zone which entails different building technique , but you seem like a pro at this so you should already know that what works for some doesn't work others 

Paul


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Right-on*

I would be suprised if it adhered well to ACQ (Treated) lumber. Typical subfloor is designed for that stuff. ACQ treating, which is what all decking should be if not hardwood for longevities sake, has a very high chemical moisture content.

In this discussion I wish to take the stance that using rough cut treated, or hardwood lumber is the BEST option everywhere. It is an option, but you have a multitude of limiting factors which keep if from being your CHOICE. Money, proximity to materials, and no thought of longevity are your primary limiters. Yes, every project is different, but if we all strive for perfection, fewer people get hurt and building these types of things becomes a legitimate ammenity in communities all over. Maybe if that happened, you could go from building homes to building trail structures. Your techniques may work for you, but at least do the greater riding community the favor of taking a bit of the advice that has been offered by me and a few other people on here about OTHER options. Make some phone calls, or use your contractor hook-ups to get supplies donated or discounted.

Ben


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## YELLA-ONE (Dec 7, 2009)

*really !?*



redriderbb said:


> I would be suprised if it adhered well to ACQ (Treated) lumber. Typical subfloor is designed for that stuff. ACQ treating, which is what all decking should be if not hardwood for longevities sake, has a very high chemical moisture content.


All the decking is standard untreated 2X4 which WILL allow thinset to ADHERE to it . There are plenty of TTF's that are 10+years that use the same decking material that are doing just fine in the Valley , i.e not rotting or splitting . Anything that has been treated should not be used in sensitive areas due to leaching of the chemicals....you should know this already , you do after all do this for a living !



redriderbb said:


> Your techniques may work for you, but at least do the greater riding community the favor of taking a bit of the advice that has been offered by me and a few other people on here about OTHER options. Make some phone calls, or use your contractor hook-ups to get supplies donated or discounted.
> 
> Ben


Did I mention that all builds are rouge in Toronto !!

In order for people to donate material , $$ or whatever , they tend to want it to be a legitimate build so that their donations are not in vane . I'm not saying that there isn't any donations . I'm saying that we are limited in where we get them from , most of the times it is just riders that throw us a few bucks because they feel guilty that we put in all this work and money to something that they ride .

We are doing the greater riding community a favor.......we are building them some really amazing trails and features !!! 
I have personally spent more than 10,000hrs building in the Don Valley , don't preach to me like I know nothing about what I do :nono:

Paul


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## JamR (Feb 22, 2005)

Just some thoughts to keep in mind when adding these features to public property.

We have had some of the same issues here on local bridges that we installed. The decks are out of RS lumber and work fine for the vast majority of users, but peridocially someone who uses the a bridge on a moist morning and may carry some moist soil onto the bridge complains about slipping.

The problem with installing after-market non-skid material on an exposed trail structure is that now you have to maintain it. Once you put it down and let it go into disrepair; then (believe it or not) the manager for the area now becomes liable if someone slips. In our letigous society, if someone slips on an area, and can prove that the once installed non-skid surace has worn off and has not been maintained; they actually have a case.

Managers are generally protected for conditions on natural surface trails and we are also protected with our bridges if they are fabricated with proven approved materials....ie, lumber.

Locally, we leave our bridges just as they were designed, and don't add any after-market non-skid treatments. We simply keep the bridges in a state of good repair making sure the decking is sound and that the deck screws are intact and not protruding.

Just some thoughts.

Thanks!


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Defensive much..*

We are talking best practices. It is BEST to use rough sawn PT or rot resistent wood in all of your structures. That being said, there will be things that limit what you can use, as you have shown. Environemtal concerns, money, availability of materials, kegitimacy of the trail project, All of these are FACTORS in the CHOICE you make on materials. If these factors can be worked around, then ROUGH CUT PT or ROT RESISTENT WOOD DECKING IS BEST, no matter what. You are a contractor, does TORONTO's building code allow for non PT decks on houses...just curious?

That response was me being nice and you seemed to be even more offended by that, so back to bashing I guess. Ever think about spemding half that 10K hours on trying to get a legal bike park? Let's see, just for discussion. You spend 5000 hours getting the spot legalized and you are allowed to build. You spend 1000 hours securing appropiate building materials for free, then since it isn't rougue you have an army of helpers. This leaves you with better stunts, a legal riding spot and enough money left in your walet for a new bike, by my calculations. You are not unique in your pusuit. I know, I do this for a living, as you keep pointing out. Isn't there a legit bike park going in, in Geogena? Hasn't Hoots built a ton of them in Canada? I simply want people that have the skills to look past their nose and get stuff done right. I don't think you are an idiot or lazy, but from experience, there is a better way.

Ben


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## YELLA-ONE (Dec 7, 2009)

redriderbb said:


> We are talking best practices. It is BEST to use rough sawn PT or rot resistent wood in all of your structures. That being said, there will be things that limit what you can use, as you have shown. Environemtal concerns, money, availability of materials, kegitimacy of the trail project, All of these are FACTORS in the CHOICE you make on materials. If these factors can be worked around, then ROUGH CUT PT or ROT RESISTENT WOOD DECKING IS BEST, no matter what. You are a contractor, does TORONTO's building code allow for non PT decks on houses...just curious?


I hear what you are saying , and I am glad you follow the BEST POSSIBLE OPTIONS rule , but like you said they are OPTIONS not something that is set in stone ! Yes , Toronto does allow for none PT decking to be used on decks .



redriderbb said:


> That response was me being nice and you seemed to be even more offended by that, so back to bashing I guess. Ever think about spemding half that 10K hours on trying to get a legal bike park? Let's see, just for discussion. You spend 5000 hours getting the spot legalized and you are allowed to build. You spend 1000 hours securing appropiate building materials for free, then since it isn't rougue you have an army of helpers. This leaves you with better stunts, a legal riding spot and enough money left in your walet for a new bike, by my calculations. You are not unique in your pusuit. I know, I do this for a living, as you keep pointing out. Isn't there a legit bike park going in, in Geogena? Hasn't Hoots built a ton of them in Canada? I simply want people that have the skills to look past their nose and get stuff done right. I don't think you are an idiot or lazy, but from experience, there is a better way.
> 
> Ben


If that was you being nice I would like to see you being judgmental  :lol:

The hours that I have spent building is just that , building hours ! I don't even want to begin on estimating the hours I have spent talking to city counselors , designing skills parks , and so on .
We are trying to work with the city to get things legitimized , but the city seems to be stuck back in the 90's for some odd reason . When things do get approved it takes YEARS to actually get implemented , why do you think Jay Hoots has agreed to consult with Toronto........could it be that we are so far behind that he feels that it is necessary to get involved ? 
There is NO simple way of getting an area set aside for just MTB in Toronto , everything is a drawn out grueling process that takes years.....yes YEARS !!! 
Six years ago the city put forth the Crothers Woods Management Plan in which they said that trails would be moved to allow for environmentally sensitive areas to regenerate back in to the full fauna , and that all TTF's were to be cataloged and re-built into one location , a skills park . 
Two Years ago trails were rerouted and they made good on that , but they are still standing around with their proverbial thumbs up their asses wondering how to go about making a skills park , and I am not just talking about the actual physical park , I am talking about....land appropriation , build guide lines , skill levels , standards for skill levels and so on and so on......
They don't seem to get it ! There are already proven methods out there that are successful , but they still seem to think that it is best that they figure it all out by themselves . Hopefully having someone like Jay Hoots will change their ways because of the success that he has had in many other cities struggling to do the same thing . 
Don't get me wrong , I love Ontario , but we are SO FAR BEHIND the rest of the world when it comes to biking infrastructure its not even funny ! We are working on making it better , but as you can see it is a long grueling trek down an even longer more grueling road.....but we WILL get there , its just going to take time 

Paul

P.S Where is Georgena ? How far is that from Toronto ? I looked but I can't seem to find it on any map


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## Woodman (Mar 12, 2006)

dburatti said:


> Were you at the Five Rivers Metro Parks Huffman Park?
> 
> D


Yup. I doubt the boardwalk structures had been built when you were up there. They did a good job with the structures, though they used 5/4" board for the decking. The non slip surface stuff they painted on worked well, but I would have prefered 2" rough cut decking.
Nice little trail system.

I did 2 weeks of assessment and education work for them this fall looking at a lot of their trails in many different parks. The MOMBA mountain bike trails were the best trails they had. Much of every other trail was crap, fall line and problematic.

I will be back up there in 2010 for some more work.


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## Woodman (Mar 12, 2006)

"We're building 6 more bridges on the new Phase III at Fisher. We got a $7000 REI grant to build and put Water bOB to work for 3 weeks to boot!"

Congrats on the REI grant, you folks seem to be good at getting those. Glad to learn you are putting waterbob to work some more with this. I need to call him as we have some project lining up for 2010 and hope to use him some more this coming year. 

Woody


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## Woodman (Mar 12, 2006)

You Hoosier folks kick arse, keep up the good work.

Where are these photos from? It sounds like Obannon is coming along. Maybe I can run up there when I am working in Lville something this spring.

W.


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## Woodman (Mar 12, 2006)

YELLA-ONE said:


> Ben , I would have to agree with you that natural is better......but in cities like Toronto it is almost impossible to come by , and ALL builds are rouge .
> 
> Very nice looking structure, though higher quality photos would do it more justice. It looks well designed, has great flow, and the quality of construction is spot on. You did however forget one important aspect of good building: Getting Permission.
> 
> ...


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## ortedd (Jan 14, 2008)

Trail Ninja said:


> Try splitting a 4X4 & see what you get. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.


Split clean (knot free) 4x4s are pretty close to split cedar in terms of initial grippieness, heck you can even get them presure treated. . .

And if you are comfotrable building with white wood. . . you can usually pick up fir 4x4s from drywall distributors, or sheet metal fab shops that have them as pallets, or spacers to allow forks trucks to pick up the sheets.


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## Woodman (Mar 12, 2006)

Here are a few photos from a large structure designed/built by Trail Dynamics. Total length is 180 linear feet, and it gets 12+ high off the ground. Decking is 2x6 rough cut PT pine.


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## Woodman (Mar 12, 2006)

Here are some photos from some structures up in Dayton OH. These used 5/4" decking and some type of paint on non-slip surface. I can't remember what they used to mix in with the paint, it was a commercial non-slip product. I know ground up walnut shells also works as does sand. Most of these additives do wear over a period of time.


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Paul*

We are on the same team, I am just blowing off some steam and you and SS seem to have gotten into the mix. Sorry about that. But, you have to admit it is a bit weird you telling people how to do things, when your projects aren't even legit. I know it takes a lot of time to get things built well and right. Hoots and I know each other from working, so I am sure he will have opinions about how I operate. But, this forum has brought up a slew of great points and some quality photos as well. So all is not lost. I don't know the spelling of the town, but when I talk to the design build team again I will get directions for you. I believe it is a Toronto suburb. Your frustrations are expressed all over the world, but it is the way when dealing with public lands. If you want to go build crazy you have to find a friend with deep pockets and lots of land. This is why I try to split my projects between private and public spots. Bottom line, building rogue stuff only helps you ride rogue stuff. I know where do you think I came from? Do it right, then do it well.

Woody, come on man, did they stretch the budget a bit more so you could do the bike park element? There was barely enough money to do the trail work that needed to be done. When are you supposed to start? You keep talking about it being a bike park, I am curious what you all will build.

Ben


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

Singlesprocket, I understand your frustration with the lack of authorized areas to practice your sport, and since you have chosen to build rouge you are funding your trailbuilding. Which explains some of your functional yet ghetto approach to resolving trail issues. As posted by others, if you don't agree with the lack of areas to practice your sport, do something positive to change the situation. If you choose to do nothing, you are as much to blame for your situation as the city you blame for doing nothing.

YELLA-ONE, you have to keep your city's attention focused on what you want. Bother them. Organize. Make some noise. The more you have researched and prepared, the better you will be able to answer or direct questions from your city. You have to keep your proposal active. And while your pic of your work looks better than SS, the facts remain you are trespassing on someones property. And it looks like you have cut tree limbs to make way for "your" trail. If that is not your tree, you are destroying someone elses property. While I believe your city is "stuck back in the '90's", trespassing and destroying others property, especially with the whole "green environmental" thing, is definitly not the best way to promote mtb'ing in the next decade.

Ben, save yourself a lot of aggravation next time and confirm if the features are authorized. Personnally, if I saw those contraptions on my trails, authorized or not, I would haul them to the dumpster.


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Bp*

No worries about being frustrated, we had a nasty snowstorm here so I was stuck in front of the computer for a while, seemed like as good a place as any to let off some steam. And you are right, some of the pics on here ain't so hot, but I already pissed people off, so glad someone else said it first. Okay, guess I will call it done on this, we just dug out. Everybody have fun !!

Ben


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## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

*Southwestway and O'Bannon*

The pictures are from Southwestway Park in Indianapolis. We raised funds by getting bridge sponsors.










Mountain bikers lost access to this park 10 years ago, and we are just now getting back in. We mobilized the mountain bike community during the last Indy Parks 5 year planning session by going to meetings and filling out surveys. This paid off in getting mountain biking into the master plan for the park. Not sure how things work up North, but it is important to understand that you can use the same system to your advantage that is often used against us. Learn the system. Go to park board meetings. study the public planning process for your parks and show up.

Woody, O'Bannon is moving forward full speed ahead. No wood bridges needed as we have all the rock needed to use rock work in stead of wood.


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## sick4surf (Feb 4, 2004)

Nice work Woody. Looks like a much "safer" version of a "river runs through it" trail.

I heard folks have used an epoxy marine deck coating on PT dimensional wood for traction but I'll look into rough cut PT.

BTW folks lets keep this section of the forum as a safe haven for sharing trail building info and refrain from the flaming.


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## dburatti (Feb 14, 2004)

Woodman said:


> Yup. I doubt the boardwalk structures had been built when you were up there. They did a good job with the structures, though they used 5/4" board for the decking. The non slip surface stuff they painted on worked well, but I would have prefered 2" rough cut decking.
> Nice little trail system.
> 
> I did 2 weeks of assessment and education work for them this fall looking at a lot of their trails in many different parks. The MOMBA mountain bike trails were the best trails they had. Much of every other trail was crap, fall line and problematic.
> ...


They brought me in (via IMBA IIRC) to do the initial assessment and design work. Greg wanted to squeeze as many miles as possible on that piece land, and I think more was added after I left. I was to new in the business to get bonded when the construction bid went through, unfortunately. I haven't gotten to ride it, either.

D


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## HarryCallahan (Nov 2, 2004)

Got a question for all the builders on this thread: 

What would be the pros and cons of spacing your decking surface materials, so as to avoid a continuous smooth surface that could get slick? I'm picturing using 2x2s or 2x4s, spaced 1/2 an inch apart or so. You could roll right over the gaps, and you couldn't catch a foot in one if you were walking. But it seems like it would last a lot longer than scoring the surface or putting on a non-skid coat, while also allowing space for debris to fall through and air to circulate, keeping the wood from rotting.


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## dburatti (Feb 14, 2004)

Woodman said:


> YELLA-ONE said:
> 
> 
> > Trail Dynamics will be in Tally FL this winter doing a design/build contract on a mountain bike trail system and including a bike park. If Tally FL can approve a bike park, then so can Toronto Canada.
> ...


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

you hit the nail on the head yellow one... might i add also the conditions here are very varied and they take quite a toil on the structures that are built. ice, snow, floods all play a factor with regards to the builds...


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

HarryCallahan said:


> What would be the pros and cons of spacing your decking surface materials, so as to avoid a continuous smooth surface that could get slick? I'm picturing using 2x2s or 2x4s, spaced 1/2 an inch apart or so. You could roll right over the gaps, and you couldn't catch a foot in one if you were walking. But it seems like it would last a lot longer than scoring the surface or putting on a non-skid coat, while also allowing space for debris to fall through and air to circulate, keeping the wood from rotting.


It's absolutely the best idea, the only problems i anticipate are as such. Doggies have a hard time running across these types of bridges.

The spacing does minimize the gathering of organics. When wet organics collect and expedite the breaking down of wood.

Also something else for everyone to consider. If you are going to apply a non-skid surface of any type, i would recommend encapsulating whatever you are using for a runner surface. If you coat the top, water will soak in the sides/bottom, even if you coat the top and sides, water will still wick in the underside. BIG DEAL you may say, as it would if it were not coated at all. Well now what you've done is created a situation where the woods is not able to dry as it has a waterproof coating capping it. (steam rises)

An equal to or worse situation for the long term strength of the structure than even having organics and moss growing inbetween your runners/planks.

Part of good maintenance to a bridge you're talking about is going in with a stick or shovel or whatever works and "flossing" the bridge every year after fall.


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## 9.8m/s/s (Sep 26, 2005)

stole that from GREMF on crankfire and paula's trailwork at where's waldo in southbury, but it might solve the problems.


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## Buffrider1 (Jan 21, 2014)

I guess this answers my question on the decking. You built a sweet bridge. Here in the northeast US, red cedar would cost me a small fortune. I just want to use local branches. Maybe cut off the trees I use for stringers. Mine is likely to be pretty slick. For the record, I think asphalt shingles sound silly. Glue and tar don't seem like they belong in the woods.
p.s. Thanks for the advise on romoving hte bark. I probably wouldn't have done that.

Did you use decking screws to hold that decking down?


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## Buffrider1 (Jan 21, 2014)

deleted


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## Buffrider1 (Jan 21, 2014)

*decking*

I'm trying to repy to Woodway's comment but I guess this thing adds your comments to the end of the t hread every time.

Woodway-
I guess this answers my question on the decking. You built a sweet bridge. Here in the northeast US, red cedar would cost me a small fortune. I just want to use local branches. Maybe cut off the trees I use for stringers. Mine is likely to be pretty slick. For the record, I think asphalt shingles sound silly. Glue and tar don't seem like they belong in the woods.
p.s. Thanks for the advise on romoving hte bark. I probably wouldn't have done that.

Did you use decking screws to hold that decking down?

-Gerry


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## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

Buffrider1 said:


> Did you use decking screws to hold that decking down?
> -Gerry


Not decking screws, we used 5" galvanized twist nails.


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## Dave_schuldt (May 10, 2004)

If it's a bridge make the trail such that people ride on to it straight and slow.


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## Buffrider1 (Jan 21, 2014)

*smart*



Dave_schuldt said:


> If it's a bridge make the trail such that people ride on to it straight and slow.


Excellent advice. It is really helpful to have a straight lead in to a bridge crossing and a smooth transition onto the bridge. Falling face first off a bridge into an icy creek can end a ride prematurely.


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## Wrench Monkey (Sep 23, 2007)

Wow, lots of good ideas.
We have used mostly cedar split with a froe. This gives a nice rough finish with tons of traction in the wet. But, after 7 rainy winters in the PNW the split cedar has become slick. Our solution is to cover the deck with used fish net or nylon net used to keep birds out of gardens. The fish net is a heavy thick guage string, not the thin nylon type. The bird net has been on a couple of bridges that have some horse use, and are still in good shape after at least 5 years. The down side is that the net does catch leaves, so we rake the bridges a couple of times a year. I have used the roof shingle method on some log rides on my private property and don't like it. It is great when new, but the shingles hold moisture between shingle and wood. Have also used the chain saw cross hatch method on some log rides. Works for a few years, but now they all have net on them. We have used both nails and screws. We now only use screws. Screws hold much beter than nails, have never had a screw come loose. We have had to repair a few bridges, and had to move a few bridges. This was so easy with screws.
I hope this helps.


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

city of toronto... better bring a very large wallet. by the way i have structures in now going on 7 years... still going strong. just because a method is not what you use does not mean it is wrong. for example i'm now using all the discount cracked and warped lumber and laminating it together with construction adhesive and threaded rods. practically indestructible, and i've even experimented with flame proof coatings. the bottom line is my methods work very well and it uses the materials at hand.



redriderbb said:


> Okay, the home depot is not your only option. It is a matter of laziness and cheapness on your part...don't ever skimp on materials, that is rule number one. Where are you located, give me a general area if it scares you to tell me the exact town. I will hunt for a supplier for you and list rough cut suppliers on here. You should also look into manufacturing your own planking if money is a huge issue. I know you can't do it there in you park, but you could find someone who has some hardwoods to take down and either take them to a mill or split them with a few gluts and mauls yourself. Also look up a froe, mans best friend when it comes to building your own decking. Your excuses are amature, seriously, don't use crap like shingles and wire for tration, learn how to do it right.
> 
> Ben


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

you didn't look at the prices did you? all the cedar is shipped in from out west and costs a small fortune.

to bring a load of wood in from up north will cost you over a grand, then you need to rent a location to store it safely so it is not stolen as well as a bobcat to unload the truck... by the way that wood working show is not what you think. i know i've attended. my methods work, proof is in the pudding as they say... the surfaces have lasted on structures on the busiest singletract trail in a city of over 6 million people for years... think outside the box. sure i would like to build structures out of artisanal wood lovely cut by elves in the moonlight on a warm summer day... but the reality is wood scrounged from the discount pile...



redriderbb said:


> Central Fairbank Lumber toronto lumber supplier. Also does PT stuff.
> 
> torontowoodworkingshow.com a lumber show that comes through toronto. These guys would be a good network to talk to about materials, log home builders might even have scraps you could get for free.
> 
> ...


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

i now what you are saying thumpduster. but keep in mind that just because the materials are cheap or recycled does not mean the end result is cheap and won't last. i've used your method of hatching before. it is very easy for rot to get into the wood (water/dirt collects) and requires additional treatment ($) of the wood to make it last. it is amazing how fast stuff rots in some of the areas we build. once the wood is wet/damp can get carpenter ants moving in. lots of old structures i've pulled out have shown signs of the ants galleries (just an interesting side note). since stuff rots so easily (even cedar) i've been experimenting with other methods that don't use wood. reclaimed steel trusses from industrial buildings is great for larger spans and you can even get an engineers stamp on the finished structure. but the most exciting method is the use of mycelium to reinforce/stabilize threads and features. i've created a couple of test sites of built features and find this method of seeding the feature interesting.

a paper that kinda describes what is happening... 
http://topsoil.nserl.purdue.edu/nse...stainingTheGlobalFarm/P021-Ceasar TonThat.pdf



thumpduster said:


> redriderbb comes across as a jerk, and I don't agree with the 'tude, but my experience with shingles as traction enhancers is that they are poor materials for the application.
> 
> I used to pay for trail materials myself, too. These days I'd rather spend a little time fundraising at local shops and from friends (everybody knows some doctor/lawyer types who ride) and spend other's money on quality stuff than skimp on materials or build quality. (ahem, which I've done in the past...)
> 
> ...


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