# New bike. 27.5+ or 29?



## d.gibson (Sep 10, 2018)

Hi all, I am a new rider having only been riding for about 5 months. I am 49 years old, 6'1 and 240 lbs. I currently have a 10 year old Cannondale 26" that I purchased off Craigslist to make sure that mountain biking is something that I want to stick with. Well, needless to say I am hooked!

I am now looking to upgrade. My budget is no more than $1500 and I do not want to get a full suspension, therefore that is why my budget is what it is.

I am looking at a Trek Roscoe 7 and Roscoe 8 as well as a Giant Fathom. Both that I have looked at are 27.5+. I have a friend that is very convinced that I must get a 29er. He feels that I should save my money, get a full suspension 29er. I fall under the belief that the fewer moving parts the better and I also want to be able to do most of the work on the bike myself. 

I am not worried about setting personal records when i go ride and I do my best to keep both wheels on the ground! I am not going to race. I just want to have fun, not kill myself, and do something to try to stay in shape. I struggle climbing and put obstacles on the climb and I almost have to walk it up the hill. But that is with my current bike. I do want to get better and make it easier to climb with my new bike.

My questions are:
How are the forks on both of the bikes? I do believe that I need to get air forks on whatever I get.

Is there that much difference between RockShox and Suntour forks?

Is there that much difference between 27.5 and 29er and will it really matter to me?

Anything else I need to consider?

Thanks for all the help.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I used to have a 2018 Fathom and didn't like it. For $1,500, Giant could do so much better with the Fathom 1. Granted my model was a 2018 Fathom 29 2, I still have a hard time understanding Giant's thinking when they built the Fathom series. 

There is a pretty big difference between Rockshox, Fox, and Suntour forks. Suntour forks are budget friendly but they can't compete with some of the models offered by Rockshox, Fox, and other manufacturers. They need to meet a specific price point with their forks hence why Suntour forks are simplistic in design and receive mixed reviews. If you are going to use the maximum end of your budget, definitely get a bike with Rockshox or Fox (most likely it will be Rockshox). 

Just like your Cannondale, you will want to choose a bike that fits you properly. Also, 29ers are great all-round wheels. They can run over everything and maintains speed pretty well. The 27.5" wheels are very nimble feeling and have quite a bit of agility. Both of my mountain bikes are 29ers. I've learned how to be agile on my 29ers and the wheel size fits how I ride very well. 

Have you looked into the Santa Cruz Chameleon? It's very close to your max budget. You might find one right at $1,500 too.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

27.5+ or 29er is 100% up to you on which you enjoy riding. I'd personally get a bike that can run both 27.5+ and 29er. 
Staying HT, look at the Trek Stahce or a Pivot Les. If you want to look into a FS, look at the Trek fuel. Lots of other bikes can support both wheel sizes also. market is huge for that. 

Good luck


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## d.gibson (Sep 10, 2018)

I haven't looked at the Santa Cruz bikes. The shops that are closest to me have the Giant and Trek. I think one of them can get the Santa Cruz but they don't have a HT in stock.

Another bike that I have looked at is the Trek Roscoe 7. That bike has the Rockshox Judy Silver TK forks on them which I believe are air ready and for $80 I can make them air shocks.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Battery said:


> I used to have a 2018 Fathom and didn't like it. For $1,500, Giant could do so much better with the Fathom 1. Granted my model was a 2018 Fathom 29 2, I still have a hard time understanding Giant's thinking when they built the Fathom series.
> 
> There is a pretty big difference between Rockshox, Fox, and Suntour forks. Suntour forks are budget friendly but they can't compete with some of the models offered by Rockshox, Fox, and other manufacturers. They need to meet a specific price point with their forks hence why Suntour forks are simplistic in design and receive mixed reviews..


This all depends on specific model - there are definitely certain Suntour forks that are nicer than certain RockShox forks. At a given price point, they're pretty equal IME.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

The Roscoe 7 isn't a bad bike. It uses entry level trail components which will work perfectly for you. The Trek website says it comes with 2.8" tires. I am not too familiar with tires that big so hopefully someone else here can chime in on how they ride. I tend to stick around 2.3" tires for my bikes. The hubs are boost which is awesome because if you want to get new wheels later, you can find boost wheels just about everywhere these days.

If anything, just buy yourself a nice set of composite pedals like RaceFace Chesters. They will give you excellent grip. You can buy them from just about any bike shop. You can also ask the Trek shop to give you a saddle fit too. Ask them how it works. I think they can do a saddle swap for you in store to ensure you have the correct fit. I don't know if this is a straight swap without cost or if there is a minimal cost involved. Someone here might know something about it. My local Trek shop was talking to me quite a bit about proper saddle fit in the past when I purchased my Trek Emonda.

I know some Trek stores use a "Precision Fit" program where they charge you for their services to have a professional fit done. This is mostly for road bikes. They might hook you up with a quick saddle fit for your bike to ensure you are riding with the least amount of ass pain.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

Salsa timberjack can also do 27.5+ or 29, if that's available near you.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> This all depends on specific model - there are definitely certain Suntour forks that are nicer than certain RockShox forks. At a given price point, they're pretty equal IME.


True. I wasn't too fond of my old Raidon fork that's all 

I've seen their 160mm travel forks on the Kona Process SE but it seems that many riders stay away from it. Maybe it just needs time before riders give it a fair shake.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I was in the same situation a few months ago with same goals as you except 3 years younger. I ended up finding a good deal on a used Salsa Timberjack. I also looked at the roscoe and a giant fathom. If I didn’t find the Timberjack I would have went with the roscoe from LBS. I am very happy with the salsa SLX with 27.5+ tires. Feels very stable and rolls over everything compared to a very old GT with 26” wheels. I honestly never rode or compared to a 29erso can’t give any feedback in that. My thought was it was going to be such a change coming from a 26” that I haven’t rode for 15 years so went with the 27.5*+ for maneuverability and stability. I don’t need to go fast anymore. See my thread in beginners corner called new bike needed salsa or ghost.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Another bike to the mix Marin Pine Mountain 1. 27.5+ steel frame, and under budget.


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## Uwibami (Apr 26, 2017)

Pretty close to you in age and size. sounds like the type riding you want to do a Hardtail is perfect. I only have 2 FS bikes but can chime in on tire size. My Santa Cruz is a 27.5+ .
my Kona is a 29er. the 27.5 will roll a bit slower, turn quicker, have crazy traction ( depending on tires ) and have a bit more cushion. The 29s will be faster, hold speed much better without as much work and will plow over just about anything. so, if riding slower, tighter stuff, go with the plus, I myself prefer faster flow / jump filled runs and more downhill type stuff so, I lean more toward the 29. either will take you where you want to go and, I feel sure you will be happy with either one.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> I was in the same situation a few months ago with same goals as you except 3 years younger. I ended up finding a good deal on a used Salsa Timberjack. I also looked at the roscoe and a giant fathom. If I didn't find the Timberjack I would have went with the roscoe from LBS. I am very happy with the salsa SLX with 27.5+ tires. Feels very stable and rolls over everything compared to a very old GT with 26" wheels. I honestly never rode or compared to a 29erso can't give any feedback in that. My thought was it was going to be such a change coming from a 26" that I haven't rode for 15 years so went with the 27.5*+ for maneuverability and stability. See my thread in beginners corner called salsa or ghost.


this is his thread


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

For 27.5+/29 compatible bikes around this pricepoint, I've ended up steering a few buddies towards the Haro Subvert line. Good price, good availability, good warranty support. Worth a look/test ride.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

You're talking about spending enough money that you really need to consider being willing to travel a bit to try bikes other than the ones your local shop(s) offer. If your profile is correct about where you live, you really don't have to travel terribly far.

I've driven several hundred miles (round trip) to test ride bikes. I did a weekend trip with 16hrs of driving round trip so my wife could demo a bike she was having a really difficult time finding locally. She loved it, and bought one immediately after getting home. I once drove around 5hrs round trip to buy a used canoe that cost me less than half of what you're proposing to spend on a bike. The last bike I bought, I drove 3hrs round trip to test ride it, and then a few months later, did that same trip again to buy the frame from the guy.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

27.5+, period (says the man that has not ridden a 29" yet lol)


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## mannyfnz (Aug 30, 2014)

The main differences between the Roscoe 7 and 8 are the forks and drivetrain. The 8 has an air fork and the 7 has a coil sprung fork. The 8 also gives you wider range gearing..50t vs 42t. For the extra $400 or whatever it is, I'd opt for the 8 for sure. Good luck.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Better components are BETTER, After five months on a given bike you will feel better components.

27.5+ shines in loose stuff and lets a rider screw around more, lets a rider take the crappy lines and have fun, lets a rider relax a little more.

29er's are faster out in the open, hold speeds better, feel more precise and demand a bit more skill in the tight stuff.

Air fork, yes absolutely
There Is no escaping the fact that In most cases a $2,000 hard tail will ride far better than a $1200 hard tail.

Full suspensions are different animals entirely, I think everyone should own one even if only once.
After three seasons on a full squish I am back on a hard tail plus bike and happy.
Will I get another full susser ? Sure, as soon as I got five grand burning a hole in my pocket. You get what you pay for and a good full springy will cost more..

Buy the bike that helps you the most where you are the weakest.

Go long low and slack, get strong, ride often...


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## awkwordz (Jul 27, 2017)

I mentioned it to another person looking for a HT, but Diamondback has some pretty nice HT's for good prices. Look around online for their corporate discount and you can get a really good deal, sometimes 30%+ off.

I was riding a cheaper Fuji 29er HT to make sure I was going to stick with riding. I was somewhat in your boat with going with a HT. The less moving parts, the better. But after riding my local trails and getting used to them I wanted to get a FS. I ended up going with a 27.5+ FS that can be swapped to a 29 if I want later.

Does your LBS rent bikes out? I think that would help a lot to be able to take the potential bike or just see the difference in the 27.5/27.5+/29 on the trail and see how you like it.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Of the 3 bikes you've mentioned, I would go with the Roscoe 8.
27.5+ seems ideal for your needs (really, 29 would work as well, but the cushion of + with a hardtail might be nice to have), and the 1x12 drivetrain and dropper post will be nice to have.


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## 351 (Nov 10, 2011)

jcd46 said:


> Another bike to the mix Marin Pine Mountain 1. 27.5+ steel frame, and under budget.


+1, with the price being under budget you'll have extra for pedals, shoes, etc. Steel frame is very nice and the component set and Rockshox Recon fork is hard to beat at this price.


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

Ok, here’s my $0.2.... I work at a trek/specialized/surly shop and work and ride all different brands of bikes that come through the store! I started off on a 29” hardtail and it was ok, I could take it absolutely anywhere I wanted as long as I didn’t mind being beat to death in the rear..... then I got a job at the bike shop and I went bike crazy, one month into working and I bought a 2016 trek remedy 8, 29” full squish! It WAS the best bike I had ever ridden because it was my first true mtb. I rode it for a year, did many races, completed a 106 mile race on it, it was great, but I started focusing on race times more and a 32 pound enduro bike isn’t the key to being faster..... I wanted a bike The was light, had the ability to get rowdy at the park for some freestyle riding (im 16, so “sending it” off of large jumps matters!), and most of all, it had to be fast! Initially I looked again at a 29” hardtail, but realized that it would beat me around way too much and would be slower due to the trail vibrations sapping my energy. The solution? A plus hardtail! I bought a trek stache 9.7 with 29x3” tires, it’s awesome! Plus tires aren’t any slower than a regular 29er if you simply use a lower tread profile! The plus tires take out trail vibrations, grip like crazy, spin up fairly fast, go over obstacles really well, and absolutely fly over everything without hesitation! I can climb just as fast as the guys on devoted XC bikes, but decend so much faster, a plus hardtail is truly the pinnacle of the all around bike! You will probably be a bit disappointed with a 29” hardtail in my opinion..... as for the bike you should get, forget the Roscoe 7 and just get the 8, but if possible, get the stache 5! The stache 5 is lighter, faster, more fun due to the ridiculously short chainstays, and climbs almost like an ebike! The Roscoe is great and a blast to ride, but it has the weird boost 141 qr standard so if you ever need a different wheel or want to upgrade wheels you can’t, it’s also aimed at the budget crowd and moderate riders. The stache (for only $200 more) has a superior fork, has universal standards, and is marketed as a piece of space age engineering for the elite..... I’ve ridden both, the stache is definitely better, but you really can’t go wrong with either one! Remember, always spend as much as your budget will allow you to on bikes or you’ll be wishing you’d have spent more! Hope my mini novel I just typed up helps! ;-)


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

^^^Good advice, but...OMG paragraphs please! Wall of text is difficult to read.

TLDR, his advice is Roscoe 8 or if you can swing the extra ~$200 get a Stache 5.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

fwiw, qr 141 boost isn't really all that weird. Some hub manufacturers don't make anything for it (yet, but they will), but any hub that uses swappable end caps for different axle standards can convert a boost 148 hub to 141 qr just by using qr end caps in place of the thru axle end caps. It's the same difference as qr 135 and 142 thru axle.


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

My bad..... I’ll work on more paragraphs! 😂 it’s not super strange, but it’s still a limiter and since it was designed for budget minded bikes it’s likely that it won’t make its way into many high end wheels.....


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## BufaloBill (Sep 27, 2016)

$1500 is a great budget that gives you a lot of excellent options. I think your are on the right track looking at a hardtail, as you said they have fewer moving parts and are cheaper and have less parts to maintain. Wheel size is really personal preference, i happen to like 29ers.
I do happen to work at a trek shop and have first hand experience with both the roscoe 7 and 8. The bikes both have an adequate spec and are trail ready. However, they both have downsides. The suspension fork on the 7 is only 1 or 2 steps above terrible; it is really flexy and is very basic. Also, they both have quick release rear axles (it isn't a deal breaker but at 1500 you can get thru axles.)
With that being said, here is a list of other bikes i would research:

Nukeproof Scout- from Chain Reaction Cycles online, 29er, multiple builds and price points, great value.

Vitus Sentier- Similar to the scout, also at Chain Reaction.

Commencal Meta HT AM- A little more "hardcore" than the others, better frame/fork than the roscoe.

I havent been overly impressed with the Salsa Timberjacks i've seen, they are really similar to the roscoes, again adequate, but not impressive. The downsides of the bikes i mentioned is that you would have to buy them sight unseen, the tradeoff is more for your dollar.


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## d.gibson (Sep 10, 2018)

Thanks for everyone's input. It is very helpful.

I did just get back from the shop that sells Trek. I looked at the Roscoe 8 and a Stache 5. The Stache 5 is an 18 model and is on sale. The Roscoe is a 19 model. I can for sure see the benefit of buying the Roscoe 8 instead of 7. 

A lot of people are talking about switching wheels and hubs and for me right now, all of that is foreign!! I don't think that I will be to the point where I buy different wheels and swop them out. At least for now.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Yeah, don't worry about wheel swaps. Have fun on the set you (will) have and go from there.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

I've been looking into grabbing a new hardtail lately (my first "real" mountain bike as well, as i'm on a 6 year old 26'er XC bike right now).

I've looked at what feels to be every single hardtail in the $1000-$1500 price range.

The best deals I've found, in terms of value (not absolute cheapest, but most for the money).

NukeProof Scout Race. $1350, comes in 27.5+, or 29'er models, 140mm travel air fork, dropper post, 1x11, and good geometry and tires (2.6in)

Vitus Sentier VR. $1200, comes in 27.5+, or 29'er models, 140mm travel air fork, fixed position seat post, 1x11, and good geometry and tires (2.6in)

Whyte 901. $1400, 27.5+ only (I mean, it only comes in one variant, but you could probably fit 29in tires on it), 130mm travel air fork, dropper post, 1x11, good (even slacker geometry), and good tires(2.8in).

I looked at the Trek Roscoes, but the coil fork on the 7 wasn't appealing, and neither was the slack seat tube angle. Plus, when I looked at what I was wanting, I found more for my money in these other bikes.

That said, I haven't purchased anything yet. Those are just the front runners in my mind at the moment.

So if you get one... let me know how you like it .


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AKRIDERK9 said:


> My bad..... I'll work on more paragraphs! ? it's not super strange, but it's still a limiter and since it was designed for budget minded bikes it's likely that it won't make its way into many high end wheels.....


High end wheels are exactly the ones that have no problem with this.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

d.gibson said:


> A lot of people are talking about switching wheels and hubs and for me right now, all of that is foreign!! I don't think that I will be to the point where I buy different wheels and swop them out. At least for now.


Some room for upgradeability is worth considering. In the case of inexpensive stock wheels, it isn't even necessarily the fact that you'll want to upgrade them just to upgrade them. But rather there's a not too small of a chance that you'll damage a wheel and need to replace it. Those are good times to do little upgrades if you can afford them, and wheel upgrades are a place you can make very noticeable performance improvements.

I honestly won't worry about a hardtail with a qr 141 rear wheel right now. That standard is becoming more widely used reasonably quickly, and hub/wheel availability won't be any sort of limiting factor in a pretty short amount of time.

The ONLY case where I'd avoid that standard right now would be if you planned to put the bike onto a stationary trainer over the winter. Right now, the trainer companies are not offering compatibility options for qr141 hubs.

You NEED to look at more shops (and more bikes), though. seriously, I don't even think twice about driving an hour to a good shop if they've got what I need. I prefer not to if I can avoid it, but shopping for a bike is worth it if you have more options within that radius.


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

Yeah, wheel swapping is something that shouldn’t be on your radar, but it’s something to keep in mind now so you don’t run into issues down the road..... is 141 a huge issue? No, but no one can deny that it does limit your opinions, literally everyone makes a 148 wheel! If you can get last years model stache for a discount, do it! 29+ is so unbelievably fun and fast, you’ll never look back and wish you went 27.5+! Bottom line, the stache is a far better bike that’s worth upgrading down the road, the Roscoe isn’t. Don’t make the same mistake as me and buy a bike that you’ll outgrow in a year, get a bike that fits you now and upgrade as you become more advanced and picky about your components. I know you aren’t thinking about that now or think it’ll ever happen to you, but believe me, it will!


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

ocnLogan said:


> I've been looking into grabbing a new hardtail lately
> 
> NukeProof Scout Race. $1350, comes in 27.5+, or 29'er models, 140mm travel air fork, dropper post, 1x11, and good geometry and tires (2.6in)
> 
> Whyte 901. $1400, 27.5+ only (I mean, it only comes in one variant, but you could probably fit 29in tires on it), 130mm travel air fork, dropper post, 1x11, good (even slacker geometry), and good tires(2.8in).


I vote for these 2!


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

Also, 29+ fits us tall guys better, I’m 6’2”, I can flick a 29+ bike as well as a 26” bike, it’s just a different feel. If you need proof of how awesome the stache is, type in “cam mical and the 29+ challenge”. The bike can do all of that and still be a killer bike for 100+ mile endurance races!


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

29+ also virtually eliminates obstacles fwiw, it rolls over everything due to larger wheel diameter


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

To answer the original question, 29 and 27.5+ have the same diameter tire. 27.5+ has more air volume and better rollover characteristics, and sucks up small trail chatter better. Tell your friend that 29ers are just a gateway drug to 27.5+ and that HE needs to upgrade.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Thustlewhumber said:


> To answer the original question, 29 and 27.5+ have the same diameter tire. 27.5+ has more air volume and better rollover characteristics, and sucks up small trail chatter better. Tell your friend that 29ers are just a gateway drug to 27.5+ and that HE needs to upgrade.


I was under the understanding that while close, the 27.5+ size (at least in the more common, 2.8in width) was actually around 1/2" - 3/4" smaller in diameter than a normal 29'er.

However, the extra volume will make the tire absorb things better, which is also a component of rollover, so maybe its a wash?

Personally, I've decided that If I'm going with a hardtail, I'm going to go with a plus sized tire, most likely 27.5+. The extra volume and lower pressure will help the small bumps feel less noticeable, the extra grip may help me climb a bit better, and maybe even helm me learn to turn a bit harder/carry more speed in corners.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Thustlewhumber said:


> To answer the original question, 29 and 27.5+ have the same diameter tire. 27.5+ has more air volume and better rollover characteristics, and sucks up small trail chatter better. Tell your friend that 29ers are just a gateway drug to 27.5+ and that HE needs to upgrade.


They're also slower if you know how to pick a line and handle like a bus comparatively. Big tires and heavy wheels are fun and all, but not everyone would consider them an upgrade. For casual riding or winter/sand, :thumbsup: .


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

ocnLogan said:


> Personally, I've decided that If I'm going with a hardtail, I'm going to go with a plus sized tire, most likely 27.5+. The extra volume and lower pressure will help the small bumps feel less noticeable, the extra grip may help me climb a bit better, and maybe even helm me learn to turn a bit harder/carry more speed in corners.


29x2.6 is a tire size you could want to try. Bikes are listing they will fit that size tire. Keep and eye out for rear clearance for that size. 27.5+/29 fork will fit a 29x2.6 with the 15x110 Boost axle.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

ocnLogan said:


> I was under the understanding that while close, the 27.5+ size (at least in the more common, 2.8in width) was actually around 1/2" - 3/4" smaller in diameter than a normal 29'er.


I believe you are correct. That's why manufacturers build in a way to change the BB height based on which wheel size/tire you use.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MSU Alum said:


> I believe you are correct. That's why manufacturers build in a way to change the BB height based on which wheel size/tire you use.


sometimes, but not always, especially when talking about hardtails.

they all handle differently, though, and this is why you need to ride bikes with these wheel sizes if something like them is in your consideration pool. there's a chance you might not like the handling at all, or you might not want the sort of handling a given wheel/tire size offers for the particular bike you're trying to purchase at the time.


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## GiddyHitch (Dec 1, 2009)

If you are analytically inclined, make your spreadsheets and optimize your choice to your heart’s content. If you’re not, rest assured that any bike in the same price range from a major company is going to be pretty darn good, so don’t sweat it too much.

Try to demo if you can, especially to determine if 27.5 or 29 works better for you. You do have two things working against you however - demo programs typically cater to a higher price point and full sussers.

Don’t forget to factor in your relationship with the shop when making your purchase. As someone new to the sport, you will end up needing their help a lot with adjustments, repairs, gear recs, etc. It helps a lot if you buy from a shop that’s convenient for you and whose staff you get along with. Shops will typically throw in free adjustments and maintenance for a period of time after purchase.

It’s ok to be drawn to a bike because of the fork, drivetrain, frame design, graphics, etc. Anything that gets you out riding more and increases your stoke/enjoyment is the whole point of this process.

A HT makes a lot of sense on your budget and a plus size tire will take the edge off by acting as a small amount of suspension front and back. Every serious mountain biker has at least one HT/rigid in their quiver so your HT purchase doesn’t have to be a waste if you decide that you want a FS in a year or two (a la How to Buy a Mountain Bike video). I’ve been riding intermittently for 20+ years and rode a HT exclusively up until recently. I instinctively pick my lines and ride lightly for my weight and am blown away by how capable my “outdated” and old FS bike is because of all that time on a hardtail.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AKRIDERK9 said:


> 29+ also virtually eliminates obstacles fwiw, it rolls over everything due to larger wheel diameter


LOL! Now THAT's funny!

Maybe if all your "obstacles" are smaller than 6 or 8 inches. Makes **** for difference once you get over axle height; approach angle/roll-over advantage is pretty much nullified at that point. So yeah, they eat up chatter better, but if the trails you ride have actual obstacles there's less of an advantage IME. Just more weight and slower acceleration to make you have to work harder getting up and over stuff; notice you don't see any trials riders competing on 29+ wheels. There's a good reason for that.


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## krumme (May 6, 2018)

I am beginner myself for 8 months and have 2 new high end bikes and 4 new wheelset. 27.5 and 29. Yeaa I am sold on mtb and ride 4 times a week.
27.7 with 2.6 or 2.8 tyres is my favorit up till now. For ht as well fs. With your weight I would go for 2.8 certainly.
Be sure to get a Dropper. That 240 lbs is better near the earth.
Hardtail is super fine. A Hardtail with dropper big tyres and relatively slack geo is very fun.
Lots of good ht out there.

Don't believe the hype about 29 2.35 tyres on a full suspension is all that works. Next year it's probably something else. Obviously it's best if you can try it though.

I am 180.5cm and 72kg fui.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

krumme said:


> Don't believe the hype about 29 2.35 tyres on a full suspension is all that works


huh?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

AKRIDERK9 said:


> 29+ also virtually eliminates obstacles fwiw, it rolls over everything due to larger wheel diameter


1. this is not true.
2. is that the goal? what's the point of riding trails if you ride a bike so plush that it's no longer a challenge? just point and pedal and plow over everything sounds kind of boring.


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## MarcusBrody (Apr 1, 2014)

I think that you've gotten good advice overall. A plus hardtail with 2.6-2.8 tires seems like a nice compromise between a lot of factors.

I couldn't quite tell in your first post if you wanted a hardtail and so set your budget or set your budget and realized you could get the best bike as a hardtail for that. But if it's the latter, there are a number of respectable full suspension bikes coming into that range as the year comes to a close (e.g. Marin Hawk Hill, Giant Stance, Diamondback Release, etc.). For my ever older back, I think a full suspension is great and it helps with maintaining traction on rough climbs.

Now, hard tails are awesome, but if price was your main reason for going HT, I'd consider a couple of the FS bikes as the would seem to fit your needs as well.


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

The outer diameter of a 29+ is actually 30.5”, I simply meant that roll over is better and it’s definitely noticeable, not that trails suddenly become bike paths, but that they can be ridden faster and with more confidence! Trials riding is far more about really short chainstays and light, hoppable weight, not large tires to roll over obstacles..... you hardly pedal on a trials bike, it’s like comparing apples and oranges. 

Anyways, back to the main topic, as a general opinion, get a plus hardtail, my opinion is to get a 29+ bike if you can, atleast ride one and try it! I think it’s so much better, but there’s obviously some controversy over it, but almost everyone that has ridden a stache says it’s the best thing ever. Is it just a crazy that stems from plus mainia? I thought so, then I bought one and the hype is real


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AKRIDERK9 said:


> it's like comparing apples and oranges.


Depends on your trails. The more they lend themselves to just staying planted in the saddle and pedaling, the better fit they are for oversized wheels. Smaller wheels seem to lend themselves much better to more dynamic riding.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

A lot of people feel a 29+ is overkill, but a bike should be in proportion to your own size to feel comfortable. Hard to say without trying. You might like the more spritely 27.5+, or you may need the extra heft from the 29+. 

Test ride. Drive and find models that you can take for a spin. Even if you have to try other brands to compare wheels. Though ideally, you need to try the correct models, because frame makes a huge difference. 

I feel the same way you do about mountainbikes. More simple. Less moving parts. My single speed Karate Monkey works for me.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

Harold said:


> I've driven several hundred miles (round trip) to test ride bikes. I did a weekend trip with 16hrs of driving round trip so my wife could demo a bike she was having a really difficult time finding locally. She loved it, and bought one immediately after getting home. I once drove around 5hrs round trip to buy a used canoe that cost me less than half of what you're proposing to spend on a bike. The last bike I bought, I drove 3hrs round trip to test ride it, and then a few months later, did that same trip again to buy the frame from the guy.


I've done this also, more than once. I wanted to try a semi-custom bike. That trip resulted in my Karate Monkey purchase.  Which, BTW, is suspension corrected to 120 mm, and takes 27.5+ or 29".

Though I wouldn't mind a Timberjack. It's on the N + 1 list.


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Depends on your trails. The more they lend themselves to just staying planted in the saddle and pedaling, the better fit they are for oversized wheels. Smaller wheels seem to lend themselves much better to more dynamic riding.


You quite obviously have never ridden a stache..... I've ridden everything from bmx to DH, to dirt jumpers and cruisers, even some enduro bikes, but nothing is as snappy or as nimble as the stache. I know I may sound like a mad man and a blind follower of an overtalked craze, but honestly, until you ride one you'll never understand how amazing it is. On paper it makes zero sense, on the trail it often preforms better than every other bike out there..... fwiw, this isn't the only plus hardtail I've ridden, I've ridden the specialized fuze, the Roscoe, timberjack, farley 9.8 with plus wheels, a framed plus bike (can't remember the model name), and a surly plus bike..... I'm no stranger to them, the fuze was very good and so was the Roscoe, I absolutely hated the timber jack though, it fit a bit strange, had a lower spec, and weighted 2 pounds more than the comparable Roscoe


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

At your size and weight, the 29+ Stache (of any build level) would be my suggestion. If you must, 27+ over 29x2.3, although where you're at, you probably couldn't go wrong on any of them.

I would want, at minimum, 1x10 or 1x11, an air fork, hydraulic brakes, and some kind of dropper seatpost. The rest is details.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Does it "preform better than every other bike out there" while being the "nimblest and snappiest bike on the entire planet" just like it "eliminates obstacles and rolls over everything"?

Seriously, it's great you like your bike, but let's get a grip here.


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

I know, sure, when it comes down to a matter of seconds a XC bike will be marginally faster, I’m sure a good dirt jumper is a bit snappier, heck, there’s no denying that a full suspension enduro bike will probably decend better, but can any of these bikes overlap all tge categories as well as a stache? No. As far as being out on the trail and coming into contact with numerous conditions, the stache out performs others overall, maybe not in specific nitch areas, but through its ability to concour all obstacles. For the money, the stache is the most versatile bike out there


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I wonder if there's a 12-step program for people who can't stop using absolutes.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> I wonder if there's a 12-step program for people who can't stop using absolutes.


There absolutely is! (probably) :lol:

OP, this will roll over ANYTHING!









OK, it's an exaggerated example, but the bigger it gets the less nimble it is. Everything is a compromise in some way.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

twodownzero said:


> I would want, at minimum, 1x10 or 1x11, an air fork, hydraulic brakes, and some kind of dropper seatpost. The rest is details.


This is what I've slowly been realizing. For the last few weeks I've been obsessed with figuring out the difference between bikes that differ by a mm or two here or there, and a half a degree of HTA on the geometry.

When in reality, anything compared to my 26in tired (2.3in max width), XC bike with a 3x10 drivetrain, no dropper, QR front and rear, and coil suspension... will be an upgrade.

I think at this point I'd be best served by buying something that I know will be reliable, and be capable of multiple types of riding. That way as I ride it I'll be able to determine what I like more, and what preferences I have, so I know what to get in a theoretical future bike.

Twodownzero list is basically what I've boiled down my own list of actual "requirements" to as well. Everything else is just gravy.


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

ocnLogan said:


> This is what I've slowly been realizing. For the last few weeks I've been obsessed with figuring out the difference between bikes that differ by a mm or two here or there, and a half a degree of HTA on the geometry.
> 
> When in reality, anything compared to my 26in tired (2.3in max width), XC bike with a 3x10 drivetrain, no dropper, QR front and rear, and coil suspension... will be an upgrade.
> 
> ...


That's just it, get a bike, enjoy it, and learn from it so YOU can make decisions that fit you best. Us admittedly biased forum guys each have our own opinions, but what works for us doesn't always work for you! As for you guys that are STILL in denial about the stache, please go out and put 1500+ miles in the saddle on one over a diverse range of terrain, then I'll start listening. I'm honestly doubtful that most of you guys have even sat on one much less put as many miles on one as I have, on paper you guys may be correct, but sometimes paper is wrong, the stache is one of those exceptions. Its not that much more rotating mass, the tires are lighter than the tires that come stock on a Roscoe and the rims weigh exactly the same, the tire weight neutralizes the larger diameter..... it's ok to not care for the stache, though I really can't see why, but to point him towards an inferior bike like the salsa or Roscoe is ludicrous especially when he can get one on sale


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

^^^Dude, let it go already. We all know you love your bike. It doesn't make all others inferior. And before you say go ride one, I've been on a top end Salsa Beargrease that'd smoke the Stache. Still handles like a potato truck.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

Do you have a moment to talk to about the gospel of the stache?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Did eb clone himself?


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Harold said:


> Did eb clone himself?


Sent his son to AK to spread the word. :lol:


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I rode a Stache once. I enjoyed the novelty of how cumbersome it was.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AKRIDERK9 said:


> As for you guys that are STILL in denial about the stache, please go out and put 1500+ miles in the saddle on one over a diverse range of terrain, then I'll start listening.


Once you put in like miles on a sub-14" CS bike, I'll start listening to you regarding what constitutes 'nimble'. 

Don't get me wrong, Stache is a fine bike and great choice for the price. After almost 30 years of riding and owning lots and lots of bikes, I don't know that I find it the be-all and end-all though. There are plenty of other great bikes out there too.


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

Alright, this is the last I'm saying on the topic.....

OP, go ride a ton of bikes, document what you did and didn't like about each one. Like others have said, try multiple brands and travel around some to look at bikes and remember that a local shop will often offer incentives after the purchase like free tuneups and whatnot.

To everyone else that seemingly hates 29+..... who knows, maybe it's just Alaska that the stache handles so well with it's slick clay and rock gardens? I was tge second person in my area to get a stache, now it's one of the most popular bikes around after just a year..... and please define "cumbersome" after you've ACTUALLY ridden one and watched this


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

^^^Don't put words in my (and others') mouth. I'm of the same mind as slapheadmofo. I don't hate the big wheels, but they're not the best for MY trails and MY riding right now. There are a lot of great bikes out there, none of which are the best for everyone. Variety is good.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

McCaul could do the same stuff on any bike, so what? Guys backflip snowmobiles, Harleys, monster trucks, UTVs...pretty much anything.


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## AshBorer (Oct 2, 2018)

delete


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I've been riding a 29er full suspensions and recently got a 27.5+; though one that can also accommodate 29s if I want. I was concerned I would find the + to feel sluggish and heavy but I haven't. It is a SS so it is different, but I haven't once regretted it. I very well may be faster on my 2.2 29s but as long as I don't perceive the wider tires as a hinderance, who cares?


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## AshBorer (Oct 2, 2018)

man I truly cannot decide between the nukeproof scout 275 and 290


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AKRIDERK9 said:


> To everyone else that seemingly hates 29+


Who said they hated the bike? Please respond with quotes from the relevant posts, 'cause I'm not seeing it.

What I AM seeing are statements telling you to chill out. You love your bike. That's great. That doesn't mean it's the best bike for every rider everywhere all the time. OP can test ride one and decide for himself if he likes it or not.

There are LOTS of great bikes out there. How many of them have you ridden for 1500mi? How many different bikes have you ridden for 20mi? I have ridden, at most, MAYBE a dozen or so bikes that much over the course of 20yrs. You can probably add a couple dozen more bikes I've ridden on trails for less than 5mi. Even more if you count parking lot rides, but the less you ride a bike, the less you know about it. Limited sample sizes really restrict the kinds of conclusions you can make. And there's really not a very good way to extrapolate your own conclusions onto other people, as you are making a concerted effort to do.

So just f*cking relax.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

AshBorer said:


> man I truly cannot decide between the nukeproof scout 275 and 290


Get the 275. Later you can build a wider set of 29 wheels if you want than those that come on the 290. Two better bike setups than if you go the other way. The Comp has a Revelation fork with Charger damper like a Pike. Sektor is 32.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

For what its worth, I've also decided on the 275.

I'm wanting high volume tires. So it was as simple as seeing that the 290 comes stock with smaller tires, so if I wanted wider, I'd have to buy them straight away. And that basically adds another $80-150 onto the price of the bike, and I'm already pushing my comfort level on my budget.

I've looked at the comp vs the race, but I'm just not sure its worth the extra outlay. Is the revelation that much better than the sektor?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

AKRIDERK9 said:


> and please define "cumbersome" after you've ACTUALLY ridden one and watched this


please be aware that Cam McCaul is a professional rider who would probably ride like that on an Electra Townie if he wanted. no one is saying that 29+ sucks. it works for some riders in some places, but it's not for everyone. this forum is absolutely full of hyperbolic superlatives about bikes that people have ridden. we appreciate your enthusiasm, but damn! please chill out and don't contribute to that atmosphere.

your suggestion is relevant and anyone interested in a new bike should try a 29+ if they have the chance, but don't shove it down anyone's throat. I get the impression that you're a younger person, so keep in mind that some of the people who are responding to your over-the-top praise of a bike platform have been working in the industry and riding mountain bikes since before you were born.


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## AshBorer (Oct 2, 2018)

eb1888 said:


> Get the 275. Later you can build a wider set of 29 wheels if you want than those that come on the 290. Two better bike setups than if you go the other way. The Comp has a Revelation fork with Charger damper like a Pike. Sektor is 32.


Ok, you've convinced me 

Yeah I'd love the comp for the 1x12 drive train and stiffer fork but I'm just not comfortable with spending that much for now, tbh.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> keep in mind that some of the people who are responding to your over-the-top praise of a bike platform have been working in the industry and riding mountain bikes since before you were born.


Yeah, his profile says he started riding in 2014, so I would tend to agree with your impression that he's young with limited experience.

Considering that I've been riding mtb's fairly "enthusiastically" for half my life, and that people half my age are now adults, I'm probably not far off of that. Hell, there are a few people on this forum who have been riding mountain bikes since before I was born, even.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

AshBorer said:


> Ok, you've convinced me
> 
> Yeah I'd love the comp for the 1x12 drive train and stiffer fork but I'm just not comfortable with spending that much for now, tbh.


It's stiffer at the 140 travel depending on your weight and trail speed 32 vs 35mm stanchions. The Sektor performance is good for small bump hopefully with the Debonair air spring. Nobody has reviewed that yet. The RL damper in the other leg can get overloaded on faster downhills. The Revelation has a Charger damper.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

chazpat said:


> I've been riding a 29er full suspensions and recently got a 27.5+; though one that can also accommodate 29s if I want. I was concerned I would find the + to feel sluggish and heavy but I haven't. It is a SS so it is different, but I haven't once regretted it. I very well may be faster on my 2.2 29s but as long as I don't perceive the wider tires as a hinderance, who cares?


I feel the same way. Plus tires are not slower on Strava and don't feel slower on the trial, so why not? I can't keep up with my friends on 29ers, but I doubt I would be able to keep up with them on a 29er, either.


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

Yes, your impressions are correct! I’m 16, I might have mentioned that in an earlier post..... i can list off 4 bikes I’ve taken over 1500 miles and 1 that’s at 3500 and going! I ride a ton and have a farly diverse group of friends who have everything from sub 20 pound HT race bikes to downhill bikes and I get to ride other bikes fairly frequently! I’m also not just doing one style of riding, I do bike packing, endurance XC races, cyclocross, road riding, downhill, dirt jumping, and used to do lots of bmx. I appreciate a diverse spread of bikes! ;-) I do sound a bit overbearing about the bike, my bad, but I still fully agree with what I said. Will there be a better bike than the stache in the future? Absolutely. Is there currently bikes better than the stache? Without a doubt, but for the price, I’m HIGHLY doubtful that the OP will find anything better..... backflips are one thing, but I’d love to see someone whip the tail all the way around on a townie..... anyways, go ride one at a demo, I’m pretty sure your opinion will change! ;-)


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AKRIDERK9 said:


> Yes, your impressions are correct! I'm 16, I might have mentioned that in an earlier post..... i can list off 4 bikes I've taken over 1500 miles and 1 that's at 3500 and going! I ride a ton and have a farly diverse group of friends who have everything from sub 20 pound HT race bikes to downhill bikes and I get to ride other bikes fairly frequently! I'm also not just doing one style of riding, I do bike packing, endurance XC races, cyclocross, road riding, downhill, dirt jumping, and used to do lots of bmx. I appreciate a diverse spread of bikes! ;-) I do sound a bit overbearing about the bike, my bad, but I still fully agree with what I said. Will there be a better bike than the stache in the future? Absolutely. Is there currently bikes better than the stache? Without a doubt, but for the price, I'm HIGHLY doubtful that the OP will find anything better..... backflips are one thing, but I'd love to see someone whip the tail all the way around on a townie..... anyways, go ride one at a demo, I'm pretty sure your opinion will change! ;-)


So you've ridden a few bikes fairly extensively. That still occurred in a fairly short period of time, so the diversity of them is still going to be very limited. Just chill. There are people on this forum who are putting big miles on bikes that are older than you are. And they love their bike as much as you love your stache (but because they've got some maturity, they don't evangelize the way you do).

What you need is to recognize that not everybody wants what you do. Not everyone prioritizes what you do. I can find you a bunch of riders easy peasy that would like bikes OTHER than the stache (for the price) for the kinds of riding they do. Just from a fit standpoint, the stache is not going to be the best for everyone. You can give someone the greatest $20,000 whiz-bang race quality bike with the most cutting edge innovations and if it doesn't fit, then it's simply not going to work.

You needed to stop this a long time ago.


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## BobBracket (Jun 6, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Once you put in like miles on a sub-14" CS bike, I'll start listening to you regarding what constitutes 'nimble'.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Stache is a fine bike and great choice for the price. After almost 30 years of riding and owning lots and lots of bikes, I don't know that I find it the be-all and end-all though. There are plenty of other great bikes out there too.


Hi SlapHead, you mentioned a sub-14 lb CS bike. What is a "CS bike"? Carbon Suspension?


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

BobBracket said:


> Hi SlapHead, you mentioned a sub-14 lb CS bike. What is a "CS bike"? Carbon Suspension?


I believe he is referring to the chainstay length.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Battery said:


> I believe he is referring to the chainstay length.


Yessir, hence the inch symbol.


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## BobBracket (Jun 6, 2018)

Battery said:


> I believe he is referring to the chainstay length.


Oh wow, a 35 cm chainstay is extremely short, even I know that! VERY zippy backend with a long front centre for stability and control.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

BobBracket said:


> Oh wow, a 35 cm chainstay is extremely short, even I know that! VERY zippy backend with a long front centre for stability and control.


Nope, tight as **** all around. 
Throw in a BB that rises instead of drops and kiss any semblance of stability goodbye. 

Thing will swap ends on you in a heartbeat, and all of a sudden you find yourself looking back up the trail you just came down! Total handful, but quite a bit of fun IMO. Easiest bike to pick the front end up I've ever ridden, by a longshot.


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## BobBracket (Jun 6, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Nope, tight as **** all around.
> Throw in a BB that rises instead of drops and kiss any semblance of stability goodbye.
> 
> Thing will swap ends on you in a heartbeat, and all of a sudden you find yourself looking back up the trail you just came down! Total handful, but quite a bit of fun IMO. Easiest bike to pick the front end up I've ever ridden, by a longshot.
> ...


Oh yeah look at that picture it's tight alright!


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## AKRIDERK9 (Mar 4, 2018)

What brand bike is that? HAd a bmx bike with a 13” chainstay, I couldn’t keep my nose on the ground and my butt off the earth each time I pedaled! 😂 I’ve always liked that high 15” or low 16” CS, always felt like a good balance of stability and snappy!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

It's a custom build - actually a semi-prototype for a fatbike frame. 

You're right about the nose - if I stop on a slight upward grade and don't consciously keep weight on the bars, I'll flip right over backwards


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

I know of someone with this All City 29/27+ bike, and it's another on my short list. Handling is supposed to be exceptional, and the price is good for such a high quality bike.

https://allcitycycles.com/bikes/electric_queen


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