# What's wrong with fire roads?



## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

So in the year or so since I've gotten into mountain biking...I've noticed what (to me, anyway) looks like a definite "fire roads suck" mentality among mountain bikers.

What's wrong with fire roads?

I guarantee in the U.S., there are MANY more miles of unpaved fire roads than there are singletrack or doubletrack. A lot of 'em traverse some really beautiful areas...and I've found many of them are great to ride. And they're not always boring...in many places, the terms "fire road" and "gnarly, rocky doubletrack" are interchangeable.

Fire roads are also a great way to introduce people to mountain biking...instead of taking people down singletrack on their first ride where they crash and burn and say "F this!" (I've seen that a lot.)

Don't get me wrong—I love good singletrack as much as anyone...but I don't discriminate against fire roads, and even seek them out sometimes.

Scott


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## scienceseuss (May 27, 2008)

I've noticed this from some MTBers too. I really think it's just part of the whole "real mountain biker" "gotta be 'core" bravado so common in our sport. The truth is, if you're on two wheels on dirt you are mountain biking, I don't care whether it's the most pristine buff singletrack, an old dirt logging road, or a trail through the park... it's all mountain biking. Just ride.

Just my $0.02

- Jared


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Yup, there are fire roads out here that make some singletrack look boring....

Second bombing off the last 15 km of fire road at 50 km/h. Is a great way to finish the day.

Besides it only takes 20 minutes.


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## jdreher55 (Jun 26, 2010)

My feelings too, this sport seems to carry it's weight in the "uptight" competition. I just enjoy riding and i'll ride anywhere that is safe and fun.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

They're great for connecting interesting sections of single track.

They're easier to ride up than single track.

They're often the only place I use the big ring on the flat.

They allow the body to rest and recover a bit before the next down hill section.

Drifting a loose off camber bend at speed on a fireroad is as grin inducing as any single track ride.

They often dry out way before the single track under the trees.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

I would think a lot depends upon what first attracts someone to what we term "mountain-biking". (possibly "dirt-pathing" might be a better term). Were we attracted by the challenge of threading a bike through the trees without crashing? Or were we attracted to the scenic rides through woodlands where we didn't have to worry about getting run over by cars? 

Then there is the amount to which we've overloaded the term "mountain-biking". Honestly, I don't consider a gravel road as "mountain-biking". But I still ride gravel roads and enjoy them, so who cares what I call it when I do that, right?


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## mondaycurse (Nov 24, 2005)

I think it depends where you live. Here in IL, our fire roads are pretty tedious, but some members post fire road pics that blow our singletrack out of the water.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

In my area, anything I can call a "road" is usually a bit too civilized for me to find it interesting on a MTB. They do have their positive sides, though, as listed by marzjennings. I find the parts about connecting trail sections and giving the body a rest between pieces of single track the most relevant in my case.

... and my usual local rides almost always include paved sections too, for connecting the trail sections.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Depends on the fire road , some of them are pretty sketchy , better than a lot of single track .


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

mondaycurse said:


> I think it depends where you live. Here in IL, our fire roads are pretty tedious, ...


Very good point. Fire roads where I live tend to be well-groomed and have zero technical features. You could drive an RV down most all of them and not have a worry in the world.

They are dusty too, or can be if there's much car traffic.

OTOH, old logging roads of the double-track variety can be quite fun. Some of the lesser-used fire roads in the national forest can be ok too, as far as scenery and such, but again, no technical features.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

JonathanGennick said:


> Very good point. Fire roads where I live tend to be well-groomed and have zero technical features. You could drive an RV down most all of them and not have a worry in the world.
> 
> They are dusty too, or can be if there's much car traffic.
> 
> OTOH, old logging roads of the double-track variety can be quite fun. Some of the lesser-used fire roads in the national forest can be ok too, as far as scenery and such, but again, no technical features.


you guys don't get winter deadfall across roads???

What about washouts and runoff...

What about rockfall...

What about bears in the middle of the road...well I guess bears are technically technical.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

It depends, like many others have said. I've ridden some interesting fire roads or doubletrack that have been every bit as good as a lot of singletrack I've ridden. The better fire roads I've ridden have been in North Carolina and Utah.

However, I've also ridden some supremely terrible fire roads. Tops on that list would be some in northern Michigan and East Texas that are little better than trying to ride your bike in a f'n sandbox.

That's not fun no matter how you cut it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jeffscott said:


> you guys don't get winter deadfall across roads???


No, but we get hurricane deadfall over fire roads that makes the whole forest look like Paul Bunyan decided to play pick-up sticks. Better to leave the bike at home and put on some hiking boots.


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

Burning calories out in nature... potential hot jogger wimmenz - fire roads seem to be a better alternative than cooping yourself up in a stupid gym. 

P.S. I'm off to the gym now.


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## The Sagebrush Slug (Jan 12, 2004)

There are fire roads and there are fire roads. Riding over blocky basalt, stutter bumps, and/or unshaded dusty loose gravel just is not fun.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

jeffscott said:


> you guys don't get winter deadfall across roads???


I'm sure there must be some, but it gets cleaned up pretty quickly.



> What about washouts and runoff...


Tends to be near the edges of the road, if it's a problem at all. I see more washouts and ruts on old two-tracks and logging trails than on what I would term a "fire road".



> What about rockfall...


Sadly, we have mostly sand in my county. Even our "rock" is mostly sandstone  .



> What about bears in the middle of the road...


We do have those. I do see the occasional black bear when out riding. I don't catch them often, but once in awhile I get lucky and spot one.


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## magsdad (Oct 26, 2005)

*Nothing wrong with them.*

They are useful for a number of applications, do dry out faster than most trails, and should not be overlooked as a useful training area for beginners getting used to shifting under load, first use of clipless pedals, or just for common bike setup.

Some are not as lucky as others when it comes to what/where they ride. If its what you have, then cool. A friend of mine from Kansas was really impressed with our riding here in Dallas. On the flip side, my last three places to live were Phoenix, Boulder, and Durango. That's some good ridin' there.

Fire roads are fine and do NOT separate you from the "serious" mountain biker contingent.

That's roadie thinking...:thumbsup:


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

Here is a photo showing a typical fire road in my area. I took the photo to show the end of the plowed portion of the road, but it shows enough to give you the idea.










The area in question is actually quite scenic. I've pedaled through it more than once. There are actually many two-tracks in the area that are much more fun and scenic to ride on than the dirt road that you see in the photo. So I drive out, park, ride two-tracks for awhile, and take the road back to my car.


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## dirt farmer (Mar 28, 2005)

If it can be plowed, is it really considered a fire road??!!


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

I'm gonna dig up some photos of great fire roads I've ridden and post them---maybe others should do the same.

Just as there is a pretty wide spectrum of what we call "trails," I guess it's the same for fire roads. I mean, I've never ridden a fire road like the one in the pic above. Most that I've ridden are really more like doubletrack logging roads (so I shouldn't call them fire roads). And I've ridden plenty of doubletrack logging roads that were so technical I had to get off and walk (seriously deep trenches, sections choked with pumpkin-sized rocks, etc.)

And let's not forget there are plenty of singletrack trails that are a snooze too.  

Scott


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## tromano (Aug 23, 2007)

Most of the fameous rides in MOAB are on double track jeep roads.


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## ferday (Jan 15, 2004)

fire roads can be great riding on their own, and usually they offer access to great singletrack. the definition of fire road is pretty broad IMO...some are doubletrack, some are damn near paved. it's just good to be riding...


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I like fire roads, but quality singletrack is what gets my juices flowing. Nothing hardcore about that.


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## Mtn-Rider (May 21, 2010)

There's no exclusivity in riding fireroads, that's why mtb'ers don't like them. They want the singletracks only they can get to, where no vehicles and few hikers dare go. I'm not one of those, I'll ride a fireroad any day as much as singletrack. However, there are places that the fireroads make such a huge maze that getting disoriented is way too easy. Some fireroads I've been on weren't even marked, branching all over the place with few visual references. They can make for a very long day without a gps and some planning.


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## Redmon (Jan 12, 2004)

> There's no exclusivity in riding fireroads, that's why mtb'ers don't like them


DING DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner!


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

ferday said:


> fire roads can be great riding on their own, and usually they offer access to great singletrack. the definition of fire road is pretty broad IMO...some are doubletrack, some are damn near paved. it's just good to be riding...


:thumbsup: That looks epic. I'd love to load up a Salsa Fargo and well... go far. Especially if the scenery looks like this.

I love singletracks, but mountain touring, overnighting or day trekking has such a nice appeal to it. Not every ride has to be a race.


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## yetipop (Jul 27, 2009)

It's all good! I use to prefer single-track 100% more than fire roads, but now that I have to pull a Trail-A-Bike with a 4yr old, the fire roads are safer and the grade changes less severe. The smells of pines and views are still great.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

Woot! Ferday, I'll ride those roads any day. That scenery looks fantastic.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

I don't see how you can be a true mountain biker and not like fireroads. Personally, I like them as much as I do singletrack.


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

Whats wrong with fire roads? They are generally boring, featureless and offer little protection from the elements. Having narrow trails with trees close by adds to the sense of speed.

To *me* MTB is about jumping and pumping your way down the trail, or grinding out a nasty techy climb at 2mph. Anything else feels too much like road biking - not there is anything wrong with road biking, just not my cup of tea.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

There are dirt roads... and then there are fire roads
There needs to be some disambiguation.

a typical 'fire road' in Annadel:









a _real_ fire road near Whiskeytown:


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## DavidR1 (Jul 7, 2008)

Like others have said, depends on where you are. We have some fire roads here that require 4wd to navigate. Of course other is as smooth and flat as can be.

I just got a cross bike to ride on much of this fire road. It really is great for training and is often a very fun ride. Something different for sure. In the winter, it is often the only place to ride. I would much rather ride on fire roads all day then not ride at all (or ride on the road).

BTW: the forestry dept has built more fire roads then there are paved roads in the US. This constant creation of fire roads drives clubs like the Sierra club crazy! All while some forests are being killed one tree at a time on the east coast from diseases that can be treated.


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## Hack (Jan 10, 2004)

fire roads should be left for hikers. bikes ruin them


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## DavidR1 (Jul 7, 2008)

Hack said:


> fire roads should be left for hikers. bikes ruin them


Maybe in your area, but in my area the are all covered in crushed gravel. You can't even tell if bikes have been on them. Not sure what these roads are like in your area that bikes ruin them??


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## sherijumper (Feb 19, 2007)

Hack said:


> fire roads should be left for hikers. bikes ruin them


Sorry , I`m confused ........Please explain !


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

I think that's sarcasm


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

DavidR1 said:


> I just got a cross bike to ride on much of this fire road.


I ride my cross bike on everything, even the most sketchiest of rock gardens. MTB'ers think it's nuts, but it's all very doable. We've done creek crossings, singletracks, etc. Pretty much anything except hardcore downhill stuff is doable with a 'cross bike. That being said, I'd climb on my 1X10 (granny is 34-28) 'cross bike any day over my MTB.

CX on the trails FTW!


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## Hairllama (Oct 27, 2006)

SWriverstone said:


> I guarantee in the U.S., there are MANY more miles of unpaved fire roads than there are singletrack or doubletrack.


Quantity does not equal quality. Just because there are more miles of double track does not make it better. Singletrack is better for me because it's rare and a technical challenge. Ride some really good singletrack and you'll answer this question for yourself.


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## karpiel666 (Jan 7, 2005)

The fireroads here are typically gnarlier then the trails, to the point they are only rideable downhill on a strong bike.


SWriverstone said:


> So in the year or so since I've gotten into mountain biking...I've noticed what (to me, anyway) looks like a definite "fire roads suck" mentality among mountain bikers.
> 
> What's wrong with fire roads?
> 
> ...


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## FloridaFish (Mar 29, 2004)

Steve71 said:


> Whats wrong with fire roads? They are generally boring, featureless and offer little protection from the elements. Having narrow trails with trees close by adds to the sense of speed.


yup, 
my dreams are not filled with riding pristine fire road.


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## cquigdownunder (May 21, 2006)

Hairllama said:


> Quantity does not equal quality. Just because there are more miles of double track does not make it better. Singletrack is better for me because it's rare and a technical challenge. Ride some really good singletrack and you'll answer this question for yourself.


Yep !!! What he said !!! You gotta admit Hair we do have some awesome fire roads around here though !!:thumbsup: 
CQUIG


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Hack said:


> fire roads should be left for hikers. bikes ruin them


2 bites. Not bad. :thumbsup:

To the OP... dust, that's my only problem. If I'm by myself, it's not a problem.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Absolutely NOTHING wrong with fireroads. Fireroads are a part of the personality of mountain biking itself. Mountain bikes are designed for "off road" use. The term "off road" describes a path that is not paved. Fireroads are not paved.

For me, fireroads are where I develop my lungs and build up my legs. They are STEEEEEP around where I live! Grinding up a fireroad gets me the most in touch with my body. I get into a rythum. I get a MUCH BETTER workout riding fireroads. Fireroads have made me a healthier individual. Fireroads have built my endurance level.

Fireroads take me away from the fast paced B/S of humanity. Fireroads are a cheap high for me. An escape. Getting away from people in mass is 50% of what mountain biking is for me. 

But don't get me wrong, I like S/T trails equally. The truth is that I find myself on fireroads more often, though...


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## Hairllama (Oct 27, 2006)

ambassadorhawg said:


> Absolutely NOTHING wrong with fireroads. Fireroads are a part of the personality of mountain biking itself. Mountain bikes are designed for "off road" use. The term "off road" describes a path that is not paved. Fireroads are not paved.


. . . fireroads by name are "roads", so not technically "off-road", but still mountain biking if done in the mountains, otherwise it's just dirt road riding. I don't have a road bike, but I do have a "dirty roadie" machine specifically for these types of roads. Again, single track is the goal. I ride dirt roads to be in better physical shape for single track.

No true mountain biker ever rode single track to train for fireroads.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Hairllama said:


> . . . fireroads by name are "roads", so not technically "off-road", but still mountain biking if done in the mountains, otherwise it's just dirt road riding. I don't have a road bike, but I do have a "dirty roadie" machine specifically for these types of roads. Again, single track is the goal. I ride dirt roads to be in better physical shape for single track.
> 
> No true mountain biker ever rode single track to train for fireroads.


YOU ARE *WRONG!!! *:nono:

The ultimate goal of a downhiller is NOT singletrack. The ultimate goal of ALL mountain bikers in NOT singletrack.

Mountain bikes consist of XC, All Mountain, Downhill and so on....not all of these bikes are designed specifically for singletrack.

I am a true mountain biker and I ride singletrack to train for fireroads, just as I ride fireroads to train for singletrack...

It is NOT all about singletrack!

It IS all about DIRT.........


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## jdreher55 (Jun 26, 2010)

ambassadorhawg said:


> YOU ARE *WRONG!!! *:nono:
> 
> The ultimate goal of a downhiller is NOT singletrack. The ultimate goal of ALL mountain bikers in NOT singletrack.
> 
> ...


I think you read too much into that.... WAY too much into that... but hey... I think we all ride to have fun and I don't think the type of ground beneath us determines that all the time.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

jdreher55 said:


> I think you read too much into that.... WAY too much into that... but hey... I think we all ride to have fun and I don't think the type of ground beneath us determines that all the time.


Oh, I'm just having a little fun! I'm not serious...seriously!


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## sherijumper (Feb 19, 2007)

Trail Ninja said:


> 2 bites. Not bad. :thumbsup:
> 
> To the OP... dust, that's my only problem. If I'm by myself, it's not a problem.


 Guess I`m too quick to respond sometimes


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## jdreher55 (Jun 26, 2010)

ambassadorhawg said:


> Oh, I'm just having a little fun! I'm not serious...seriously!


We are all just having a little fun. At least that is what I keep telling my wife!


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

Nothin' wrong with big rig jamming.


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## Robb Thundr (Apr 16, 2010)

if you ever get a chance and want a change of pace, hit up a fire road on a cyclocross bike. a little road, a little trail, nice way to mix it up. But when i want to fly downhill i definitely reach for my fs.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

jdreher55 said:


> We are all just having a little fun. At least that is what I keep telling my wife!


Sure, it's fun... until somebody gets hurt.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Around here there is about a zillion miles of unpaved road on private timberlands. Most of the road systems are gated and closed to vehicles. You can ride all day and not see or hear another vehicle or person. The area gets so little public use the wildlife are not spooked by a bike. 

Because the private forest is access-controlled, it is often more pristine than nearby open-access national forest, where litter and old campfire rings are constantly in sight. Even though it is nominally a 'road' I am leaving the first tire tracks of the year.

So I'll let the losers diss dirt roads. It's their loss, not mine.


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## sprunghunt (May 14, 2006)

Singletrack is the natural state of a trail. 

If you leave a fire road alone it'll become singletrack. It takes a lot of work from a bulldozer to go the other direction.

So singletrack is the 'proper' state for a trail :thumbsup:


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## CycleAddict (Aug 8, 2009)

highdelll said:


> There are dirt roads... and then there are fire roads
> There needs to be some disambiguation.
> 
> a typical 'fire road' in Annadel:
> ...


Exactly^

To the OP-

It depends on where you are and what the fire roads are like. In the Bay Area especially, many MTBers aren't real fond of fire roads because there are trail access issues that keep us off plenty of beautiful singletrack. The fire roads are not fun to be completely limited to in many parks. There are a few fire roads that I consider to be fun because they have some variation in terrain and technical features. However...many of them are either trampled by cattle or just completely groomed with little variation. Some people also like to use them as a dog park. I got bit by a dog when riding on a fire road, so riding through packs of them off leash isn't real comfortable. These are just local issues for me, and really have little to do with fire roads in general.

Fire roads can certainly be fun, but they aren't all the same. Wilderness type roads that require 4wd are awesome.


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

rmanla said:


> if you ever get a chance and want a change of pace, hit up a fire road on a cyclocross bike. a little road, a little trail, nice way to mix it up. But when i want to fly downhill i definitely reach for my fs.


I share the same story. :thumbsup:


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

ambassadorhawg said:


> I am a true mountain biker and I ride singletrack to *train* for fireroads, just as I ride fireroads to *train* for singletrack...


Arrrghhhh :madmax:

that five letter word. I will have none of it!

I refuse to t*a*n!


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

perttime said:


> Arrrghhhh :madmax:
> 
> that five letter word. I will have none of it!
> 
> I refuse to t*a*n!


right!?!:thumbsup:


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Great responses from all! :thumbsup: 

This discussion is somewhat analogous to when some whitewater boaters say stuff like "I'm not wasting my time on class 2-3 water...that's not REAL whitewater!" (Then I show 'em moves on a class 2 rapid they can't do, LOL)

Everything is a continuum. With riders, the continuum is between adrenaline-seekers at one end and outdoor lovers at the other. Not to suggest adrenaline seekers don't appreciate the outdoors...but many can't appreciate the outdoors UNLESS there's adrenaline involved. I've always felt sorry for those folks.

Your desire for adrenaline influences the kind of riding you like. People who only like singletrack are most likely adrenaline junkies, because they love flying through trees at top speed, risking injury crawling over gnarly rocks, and generally being on the edge of blowing out. (Ditto for DHers.)

Riding fire roads (for the most part) isn't about adrenaline, nor is it about being on the edge. It's about loving your surroundings, just getting your heart rate up, and generally being high on being outdoors, period. If you enjoy fire roads, you definitely aren't an adrenaline junkie. 

Interestingly, in the east, the best scenery is often NOT on singletrack...because you're always in the woods and basically don't see squat except trees, trees, and, uhh...more 
trees.  (I know that's not true out west.)

Scott


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## Hack (Jan 10, 2004)

ambassadorhawg said:


> YOU ARE *WRONG!!! *:nono:
> 
> The ultimate goal of a downhiller is NOT singletrack. The ultimate goal of ALL mountain bikers in NOT singletrack.
> 
> ...


Wow. never met anyone like you. Do you like riding construction sites also? For every Rider I know it's about the singletrack. Maybe you have no good trails where your from. i'll ride dirt roads when I'm 70 and even then I'll fight it.


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## Pawndream (Mar 17, 2004)

I enjoy riding fire roads, dirt roads, rail-trails, and forest roads.

Where I live they are a welcome reprieve from the constant rock-fest that passes for "singletrack" in this area (Sacramento mountains - southern New Mexico).

Sometimes it's just nice to spin with a little rolling resistance, enjoy some awesome scenery, and not have to worry about navigating a rock garden for hours on end.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

For the fire road bashers...  ...here's why I love riding these roads...









































































I get weepy just looking at those pics as I sit here at my desk...and dream of being right back on those fire roads again! 

Scott

PS - Yes, one pic was from a dual-sport motorcycle ride. :-D


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## shoryuken (Mar 24, 2008)

Whats awesome about fire roads? *Water Bars!* 
In Sydney there is alot of Fire roads which put single tracks to shame. 
Both from massive long hills to technical rocky terrain. Without a FS, your in alot of trouble.
Its awesome flying 10 feet into the air speeding down a super steep rocky hill.
And there is so many around, some with insane views or landscapes.

edit: Ill be taking some pics of a local trail this week, ill update to show you


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## powpig2002 (Sep 13, 2009)

would you rather intercourse or oral. they are both friggen awesome. nuff said.
thankyou, thank you very much


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

shoryuken said:


> Whats awesome about fire roads? *Water Bars!*
> In Sydney there is alot of Fire roads which put single tracks to shame.
> Both from massive long hills to technical rocky terrain. Without a FS, your in alot of trouble.
> Its awesome flying 10 feet into the air speeding down a super steep rocky hill.
> ...


I used to live and MTB in Sydney and at the time, both the single track and fire roads were pretty average IMHO. This was back in 96 so I hope things have improved - looking forward to seeing some pics. 

Hell even the Thredbo DH was just a lame fire road back then.

Most of the front range single track in Jefferson County (Colorado) is littered with huge water bars that make awesome jumps - lots of natural berms as well.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

ambassadorhawg said:


> The ultimate goal of a downhiller is NOT singletrack. The ultimate goal of ALL mountain bikers in NOT singletrack.


What is the ultimate goal of a downhiller? You seem to know. I'd disagree and say ST is what a DHer craves. It's all about tight trails that require you to thread the needle where a couple inches one way or the other = bad day. Fire road doesn't give you that feeling, technical descents are possible, but where you have to thread the needle, no. If it wasn't about a tight threading the needle down, people would just ride down the roads they shuttle up and ignore the singletrack.

What is the ultimate goal of ALL mountain bikers? How can you be sure it categorically is NOT singletrack? You seem very enlightened and I am afraid of your snake avatar so I'll be nice.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

thefriar said:


> What is the ultimate goal of a downhiller? You seem to know. I'd disagree and say ST is what a DHer craves. It's all about tight trails that require you to thread the needle where a couple inches one way or the other = bad day.Ha never had to thread the needle on a fire road, try a water bar at 60 kph just around a corner Fire road doesn't give you that feeling, technical descents are possible, but where you have to thread the needle, no. If it wasn't about a tight threading the needle down, people would just ride down the roads they shuttle up and ignore the singletrack.
> 
> What is the ultimate goal of ALL mountain bikers? How can you be sure it categorically is NOT singletrack? You seem very enlightened and I am afraid of your snake avatar so I'll be nice.


Sorry plenty of technical riding available on fire roads.

Sweeper deadfalls

Washouts

Corners, Switchbacks

Water bars

In the TranRockies zero injuries on single track....all injuries occurred on high speed fire road descents...water bars, loose goatheads, drifting corners...


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

"Running" is...

Usain Bolt (sprinting on a track)
Scott Jurek (ultramarathoning on a trail)

Both pretty different, huh?  

-----

"Skating" is...

Johnny Weir (figure skating)
Alex Ovechkin (hockey)

Both pretty different, huh?  

-----

"Paddling" is...

Eric Jackson (whitewater rodeo champion)
Greg Barton (flatwater kayaking champion)

Both pretty different, huh?

-----

My point (already echoed by others) is that "mountain biking" is NOT one monolithic sport. Maybe once upon a time...but no more.

Now it's multiple specialties and sub-specialties. So much so, that it's almost stupid to have one, all-encompassing "mountain biking" forum! (With respect to MTBR.com.)

Fire roads...singletrack. Very different...some people like one, some like the other, some like both.

It's all good. 

Scott


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## Blksocks (Dec 22, 2009)

If you're riding on a mountain whether it be a trail going up/down a mountain or a dirt/rocky road going up/down a mountain it's all mountain biking and I sure as hell enjoy fire/forest roads more than trails.


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## KERKOVEJ (Jan 23, 2004)

Love fire/mining roads.....especially in Colorado when you get to the top of a big climb and see this......


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## tromano (Aug 23, 2007)

I like fire roads. I love single track. I think roads and 1-track offer different challenges and require different skills. Learning how to ride open loose corners at speed is a challenge and if you haven't flown down a fire road at speed... Well me those are alot of fun, but are over too quickly. The speeds on roads DH are much higher than single track and that has its own sort of challenge. Stuff that seems trivial at 15mph is rough at 25 and bone jaring at 35. 

As far as who gets the most adrenaline... I always get more from climbing and XC than from DH runs whether biking or skiing.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

tromano said:


> I like fire roads. I love single track. I think roads and 1-track offer different challenges and require different skills. Learning how to ride open loose corners at speed is a challenge and if you haven't flown down a fire road at speed... Well me those are alot of fun, but are over too quickly. The speeds on roads DH are much higher than single track and that has its own sort of challenge. Stuff that seems trivial at 15mph is rough at 25 and bone jaring at 35.
> 
> As far as who gets the most adrenaline... I always get more from climbing and XC than from DH runs whether biking or skiing.


I guess it depends on the rider. Its EASY to go fast on fire road, its HARD to go the same speed on single track, stuff that seems trivial at 10mph is rough at 25 and bone jarring at 35, especially deflections off trees.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Absolutely nothing wrong with it..*.close* this crazy thread and go ride.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

thefriar said:


> Its EASY to go fast on fire road...


Uhh...not on some of the fire roads I ride!

This is a fire road...










...and this is a fire road too...










...and this is a fire road too...










I'm not saying all fire roads are harder than all singletrack...just that there are HARD fire roads and EASY singletrack. 

Scott


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

KERKOVEJ said:


> Love fire/mining roads.....especially in Colorado when you get to the top of a big climb and see this......


Awesome pic! :thumbsup: 
Scott


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## shoryuken (Mar 24, 2008)

Can i like both?


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

jeffscott said:


> Sorry plenty of technical riding available on fire roads.


Did I say no tech on fire roads? I'm more concerned at Ambasshawg's knowledge of DH.

Lets make all else equal, tech, grade/steepness, exposure, waterbars, jumps, everything. Would you rather go 60mph down a surface built to accommodate a truck/4x4 or 60mph down a trail built to be about 3-4' wide? If you say 60mph on the fire rd., I ask why? Wouldn't the trail be tougher, hairer, and more exhilerating?

Edit: If you're encountering uphill vehicular traffic that you'd have to avoid at the same time that'd be pretty interesting.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

thefriar said:


> Did I say no tech on fire roads? I'm more concerned at Ambasshawg's knowledge of DH.
> 
> Lets make all else equal, tech, grade/steepness, exposure, waterbars, jumps, everything. Would you rather go 60mph down a surface built to accommodate a truck/4x4 or 60mph down a trail built to be about 3-4' wide? If you say 60mph on the fire rd., I ask why? Wouldn't the trail be tougher, hairer, and more exhilerating?
> 
> Edit: If you're encountering uphill vehicular traffic that you'd have to avoid at the same time that'd be pretty interesting.


Sorry making all else equal is just not reality....

Secondly none of the fire roads around here are built for 60 MPH, maybe you can push 60 KPH.

Thirdly none of the single track I know of allows for much over 30 KPH and that is pushing it.

Nope two different things both fun, both exhilarating...

Also we have a single track climb (excellent) right beside the fire road.
Sometimes we ride the fire road to get to the top faster so we can do the higher trails in one evening, the single track ride adds about 30 to 40 mins to the climb.


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## beagledadi (Jul 18, 2004)

Love me some double track too :thumbsup: 

Matt


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

jeffscott said:


> Sorry making all else equal is just not reality....
> 
> Secondly none of the fire roads around here are built for 60 MPH, maybe you can push 60 KPH.
> 
> Thirdly none of the single track I know of allows for much over 30 KPH and that is pushing it.


You should watch some world cup DH action.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

thefriar said:


> Lets make all else equal, tech, grade/steepness, exposure, waterbars, jumps, everything. Would you rather go 60mph down a surface built to accommodate a truck/4x4 or 60mph down a trail built to be about 3-4' wide? If you say 60mph on the fire rd., I ask why? Wouldn't the trail be tougher, hairer, and more exhilerating?


@thefriar - Keep in mind there are many people _who are actually real mountain bikers_ who aren't looking for an adrenaline rush.

"Mountain biking" doesn't equal "high speeds, gnarly terrain, big air, etc." for everyone. For many of us, mountain biking means *"hiking through the wilderness on two wheels."*
:thumbsup:

Scott


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

OP's question was: What's wrong with fire roads?

And reading into it, the question wants to know why some look down upon fire road riding. I'm taking an extreme point in trying to answer the question and try to drill home why or how some might look down on others for fire road riding.

I personally have no problem with riding fire road, one of my beasts to slay is a serious technical fire road section called Ned's Left Lung. I'm just trying to beat it in that there are some out there that hear people say fire roads are just as good/technical/demanding as ST and then look down on the fire rd proponents. 

Hopefully I'm not being too pushy in trying to illustrate how they might feel that way about fire rd. as it seems to be an under-rep'ed point of view here.

On the point of "real mt bikers who aren't looking for an adrenaline rush," many aren't doing it for the rush but trying to enhance their skills, to take that tough line faster and more precisely. Its like going on the golf course and trying to shave a stroke off each round.


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## scienceseuss (May 27, 2008)

Hack said:


> For every Rider I know it's about the singletrack.


Wow, "rider" with a capital R... they must be pretty 'core.


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## tromano (Aug 23, 2007)

thefriar said:


> I guess it depends on the rider. Its EASY to go fast on fire road, its HARD to go the same speed on single track, stuff that seems trivial at 10mph is rough at 25 and bone jarring at 35, especially deflections off trees.


If you can go 35 on gnarly sinuous tech single track then you can go alot faster on less gnarly less technical less sinuous fire road. And that speed presents different challenges. The margin for error at higher speeds on fireroads is much less and the costs of a mistake as spees increase are greater.

I don't know anyone who goes 60 down a fire road Nor who does 60 down a regular single track trail with limited visiblity and the possibility of uphill trafic. Its simply reckless behavior.

As far as who get the most adrenaline, for me Jumping off stuff and goign 60mph =/= adrenaline. Long tought climbs and high aerobic exertion = adernaline.


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## salpic (Jun 15, 2010)

shoryuken said:


> Can i like both?


Absolutely not. Pick a side, hippie.


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Nuttin' wrong with them.

http://vintageone.blogspot.com/2008/09/heres-to-dirt-roads.html


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## Stevirey (Jul 16, 2005)

*fire roads*

In 1965 this lady (bike shop owner) suggested we try these knobies .(We kept flat spotting the slicks on our Stingrays).And try some fire roads for a change.What a blast! They are still fun if fast enough. I mean if you got to use your brakes fast.It really is about the first form of down hill racing. I don't really ever ride single track.Almost don't know what it is. I've seen some cool fast single track on dvd.Looks like fun.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Ride Chiva falls trail in Tucson. It is a very rugged 4 wheel drive road, technical, remote, beautiful, with a waterfall (either spectacular or a trickle depending on time of year). The long loop above the falls is extremely rugged remote country where you rarely see anyone. It is one of the best rides in Tucson, which is a town full of great single track rides as well. When you ride it, you will never feel singletrack envy.
The downside is that occasionally on weekends you will see a caravan of jeeps etc, but on a weekday it is usually empty. 
So, great rides don't have to be singletrack, but great 4WD roads and fire roads are not easy to find. Picking a dirt road off a map is not likely to give you a memorable experience. On the other hand they are good for work outs or general exploring of an area.


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## Hairllama (Oct 27, 2006)

SWriverstone said:


> mountain biking means *"hiking through the wilderness on two wheels."*


Exactly! To me singletrack fills this need. I ride my mountain bike to access areas that can not be reached in a car/truck.


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## davidarnott (Feb 28, 2007)

*they're not "hardcore"*

dude


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

thefriar said:


> OP's question was: What's wrong with fire roads?
> 
> And reading into it, the question wants to know why some look down upon fire road riding. I'm taking an extreme point in trying to answer the question and try to drill home why or how some might look down on others for fire road riding.


Good points thefriar. Actually, my original point in the thread was really to defend fire roads, since many people think they're lame.  (So my thread title was somewhat rhetorical.)

Scott


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

tromano said:


> If you can go 35 on gnarly sinuous tech single track then you can go alot faster on less gnarly less technical less sinuous fire road. And that speed presents different challenges. The margin for error at higher speeds on fireroads is much less and the costs of a mistake as spees increase are greater.
> 
> I don't know anyone who goes 60 down a fire road Nor who does 60 down a regular single track trail with limited visiblity and the possibility of uphill trafic. Its simply reckless behavior.
> 
> As far as who get the most adrenaline, for me Jumping off stuff and goign 60mph =/= adrenaline. Long tought climbs and high aerobic exertion = adernaline.


So if an individual is going faster on fire roads there is a higher cost of a mistake and that higher speed on the fire road allows for less margin of error than a comparable speed on single track?

Exhilerating was a poor word choice as it is easily associated with adrenaline. Let me clarify it to "sense of accomplishment".


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

davidarnott said:


> dude


Apparently some folks cannot understand what "fire road" means and will post pictures of any old dirt road based upon that lack of understanding.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Remember...people have been living in the Eastern U.S. for over 200 years. There are a LOT of old, old (unpaved) roads in the forests that almost nobody ever passes along for any reason-whether they were originally for wagons, logging, or fire control.

I can't say how many times I've been in the woods and found these roads...and they were NOT on any maps (USGS topos, NatGeo maps, none of 'em). And they're definitely roads-not singletrack. Great fun to explore.

Here's a pretty typical one...(and they get gnarlier and more overgrown from here!).










Scott


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

My buddies and I did a race in PA in April. Getting to the fire road was a relief for everything, and just about the most enjoyable part of the 9-mile loop. Granted, that's mostly because the trails were unmaintained, overgrown, rocky, and just plain BRUTAL.

Still, there's one section of fire road I enjoy riding regularly. It's at the beginning of one of the rides I do. Several hundred feet of climbing up the Job Corps Campus, then into the woods on the fire road for a bit more climbing, then a couple hundred yards of flat/slightly down to catch your breath (or let the slow folks catch up), then crank away to gain speed before ducking into the singletrack.

Also, as mentioned before, water bars can be jolly good fun, if they're the right shape.


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

SWriverstone said:


> Not to suggest adrenaline seekers don't appreciate the outdoors...but many can't appreciate the outdoors UNLESS there's adrenaline involved. I've always felt sorry for those folks.


I don't enjoy (for the most part) *mountain biking* without endorphins and adrenaline. Nature on the other hand is something I enjoy constantly.


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## ep-gnar (May 16, 2009)

sputnik said:


> Apparently some folks cannot understand what "fire road" means and will post pictures of any old dirt road based upon that lack of understanding.


What is a fire road anyway? Not that it really matters I've just always wondered...

Edit: I'm guessing repack is a genuine "fire road" that looks like a hell of a lot of fun!


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

ep-gnar said:


> What is a fire road anyway? Not that it really matters I've just always wondered...
> 
> Edit: I'm guessing repack is a genuine "fire road" that looks like a hell of a lot of fun!


Probably the best question so far.

Around here we have many definitions.

FSR (Forestry Service Road) maintained by province and industrial users, open to all..

Can be full width 80 km/h speed or double track maybe 20 km/h max.

Logging Roads used to access cut blocks, and often over passes....Maintained only during active logging, then allowed to washout.

Exploration Roads (cat tracks) can be straight or curved, opened once and allowed to decay.

Pipeline Right of ways, no motorized access, wide flat, maintained for life of pipeline.

and so on and so on...


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

ep-gnar said:


> What is a fire road anyway? Not that it really matters I've just always wondered...


By definition they are firebreaks that are used for fire fighting equipment access as well. They are often maintained on a yearly basis to ensure that said equipment can still get through and to keep them brush free. That's what can make them so uninteresting compared to singletrack.

Hence, the picture of a old mining road in the middle of the desert is kind of a silly example of a fire road, since it isn't one.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

I enjoy mountain biking that involves a lot of turns and grade changes, plain and simple. In general doubletrack (yes, I have ridden both more and less technical doubletrack) comes up short on these characteristics, so I prefer singletrack by far.

Mountain vistas in of themselves actually don't really do anything for me. If you gave me a choice of a twisty, technical singletrack in the middle of a city versus doubletrack out some mountain range, I'd choose the singletrack. My tires ride the trail, not the surrounding view. YMMV.


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## Hack (Jan 10, 2004)

scienceseuss said:


> Wow, "rider" with a capital R... they must be pretty 'core.


i Always seem to HiT the Cap lock by accident


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## Hack (Jan 10, 2004)

Zachariah said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with it..*.close* this crazy thread and go ride.


then what will all you people do at work?


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## trboxman (Jul 7, 2010)

Some folks only feel good about themselves if they can find something over which to look down upon others. They also seem to be the ones who actively seek out people similar to themselves so they can all cluster together and be "different" from everyone else....


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

So the consensus is, it depends on
the bike, 
the rider, 
the location of the fire road, 
the construction of the fire-road
the topography
the reason for riding in the first place.

That is, there is no consensus!!! If you're enjoying the ride, then don't worry about what other's say. Most of us don't care where you ride. The people that complain that something "isn't MTBing" or "is not what it's about" are just trying to compensate for some insecurity. Anyone that tries to tell you that the rides you enjoy are or aren't is a D----bag

Riders who go on about "hardcore" are the same personality type that brags about being "mo gangsta". The truly hardcore guys I've met were laid back and above voicing stupid opinions about a trail type. It's extremely petty


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## Mtn-Rider (May 21, 2010)

Sure there's consensus: there's singletrack and there's non-singletrack, fireroads fall in the second group.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

thefriar said:


> What is the ultimate goal of a downhiller? You seem to know. I'd disagree and say ST is what a DHer craves. It's all about tight trails that require you to thread the needle where a couple inches one way or the other = bad day. Fire road doesn't give you that feeling, technical descents are possible, but where you have to thread the needle, no. If it wasn't about a tight threading the needle down, people would just ride down the roads they shuttle up and ignore the singletrack.
> 
> What is the ultimate goal of ALL mountain bikers? How can you be sure it categorically is NOT singletrack? You seem very enlightened and I am afraid of your snake avatar so I'll be nice.


I like your reply! Your opinion of fireroads is noted. But lots of riders like fireroads, just read the replies. Super tight technical stuff scares me now because I am self employed and if I get hurt, NOBODY can replace me. No work, no income.

I use to crave only the most technical ST around but I was never a "pro rider" at it.

Nowadays, I just like to get off pavement and away from the masses.............

..........surely we can agree on this aspect?

Didn't mean anything insulting directly at you. I'm just saying that mountain biking is not _only_ about ST riding.

It's not wrong to like to ride fireroads. I have been riding for 10 years, seen all that my 2004 & now 2009 FSR bikes could handle. I like to mix it up. Some days I do fireroads, other days I do ST. But my favorite days are long rides with a combo of both.

Perhaps YOU should start a poll. But to be completely fair to all, you should consider leaving muliple choices. Not just whether or not mountain biking is categorically biased to ST.

The question could be: What do you like about mountain biking?

Choices could be: carving ST, blasting downhill, climbing fireroads, AND (this is the one I think most will choose), getting off the pavement and hitting the dirt to escape from the rigors of the rat race and to enjoy: the fresh air, lack of people, lack of cars, lack of idiots, beauty of nature, and the feeling of freedom if only for a little while.

'hawg

p/s- Don't be afraid of my Cottonmouth avatar. Snakes are wonderful people, too!


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

sputnik said:


> Apparently some folks cannot understand what "fire road" means and will post pictures of any old dirt road based upon that lack of understanding.


 ..and people are accusing me of being over critical here??? LOL!!!


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

ambassadorhawg said:


> ..and people are accusing me of being over critical here??? LOL!!!


Since when did merely stating a simple fact become "over[sic] critical"?


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

sputnik said:


> By definition they are firebreaks that are used for fire fighting equipment access as well. They are often maintained on a yearly basis to ensure that said equipment can still get through and to keep them brush free. That's what can make them so uninteresting compared to singletrack.
> 
> Hence, the picture of a old mining road in the middle of the desert is kind of a silly example of a fire road, since it isn't one.


So then you are right and the US Government is wrong, LOL?! I've seen posted "fireroad" signs by the Dept of Forestry along highways, on maps and so on. A firebreak is not a fireroad. A firebreak is a break in foliage to help contain a fire from advancing. A fireroad is an unpaved roadway that is maintained and commonly used by utility companies to access utilty towers, by fire fighting vehicles to access open land to cut firebreaks, by law enforcement to catch crazy people like me, and by mtn bikers, hikers, walkers...

My best friend who is a CDF Captan has his crews cut firebreaks, not fireroads. Two totally different animals....A fireroad is permanent, a firebreak is not permanent.


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## Timo (Jan 13, 2004)

Whats wrong with fire roads? They can sometimes be at high altitude and too steep to climb up! That is what is wrong!!!!!


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Timo said:


> Whats wrong with fire roads? They can sometimes be at high altitude and too steep to climb up! That is what is wrong!!!!!


 You could say that about ST, too!


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## Timo (Jan 13, 2004)

So I assume you will soon post a thread on "What's wrong with singletrack?" :skep:


ambassadorhawg said:


> You could say that about ST, too!


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Timo said:


> So I assume you will soon post a thread on "What's wrong with singletrack?" :skep:


GREAT IDEA! I think it should be..."what's wrong with mountain bikers?"....


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## Timo (Jan 13, 2004)

LOL....thanks for the good laugh! 


ambassadorhawg said:


> GREAT IDEA! I think it should be..."what's wrong with mountain bikers?"....


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Is this a fire road? Well, I don't know what this road was built for, but yes, fire roads are needed in the desert. Regardless, I think this makes the point about the potential for non-singletrack challenge, excitement, precision, technicality, etc.
Its hard to tell in the picture, but there is no easy way down this rocky section, and although this is one of the toughest sections, the whole road is full of similar challenges.


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## Coach Hoski (Oct 22, 2009)

SWriverstone said:


> Remember...people have been living in the Eastern U.S. for over 200 years. There are a LOT of old, old (unpaved) roads in the forests that almost nobody ever passes along for any reason-whether they were originally for wagons, logging, or fire control.
> 
> I can't say how many times I've been in the woods and found these roads...and they were NOT on any maps (USGS topos, NatGeo maps, none of 'em). And they're definitely roads-not singletrack. Great fun to explore.
> 
> ...


Scott, if you are in Harper's Ferry, I'm in your neck of the woods. I live 3/4 of the year in Winchester, VA. The other 1/4 in metro Detroit. Ironically (I say ironically because MI doesn't have mountains, VA does), I like the Michigan trails MUCH more because there is a larger, more vocal, more prominent biking community that diligently maintains some GREAT singletrack. In VA, I found some okay ST in the George Washington National Forest, but definitely no fire roads like that! The fire roads I've ridden are extremely underwhelming, flat gravel that generally maintains a steady incline up a mountain.
Where were those pictures taken? I was 100% on the ST side of this argument until I saw your pics, but I would love to ride that when I move back to VA this fall.


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

ambassadorhawg said:


> So then you are right and the US Government is wrong, LOL?! I've seen posted "fireroad" signs by the Dept of Forestry along highways, on maps and so on. A firebreak is not a fireroad. A firebreak is a break in foliage to help contain a fire from advancing. A fireroad is an unpaved roadway that is maintained and commonly used by utility companies to access utilty[sic] towers, by fire fighting vehicles to access open land to cut firebreaks, by law enforcement to catch crazy people like me, and by mtn bikers, hikers, walkers...
> 
> My best friend who is a CDF Captan[sic] has his crews cut firebreaks, not fireroads. Two totally different animals....A fireroad is permanent, a firebreak is not permanent.


Sorry, you're confused, once again.

Fireroads are firebreaks, by definition. It's a defensible line just as a firebreak is.

All firebreaks are not fireroads however. I'm sorry that that not so subtle distinction was too difficult for you to understand.

p.s. I've ridden on singletrack that used to be a fireroad so fireroads are not as permanent as you wish them to be.


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

Timo said:


> Whats wrong with fire roads? They can sometimes be at high altitude and too steep to climb up! That is what is wrong!!!!!


Why do you refer to that rocky road as a "fire road"?

It seems that for many folks anything that is wider than singletrack, that vehicles can navigate, is a "fire road" regardless of the road's history, intended use, proximity to combustibles, etc.

Can a rocky road be a fire road if there is no fire danger in that area?


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

sputnik said:


> Sorry, you're confused, once again.
> 
> Fireroads are firebreaks, by definition. It's a defensible line just as a firebreak is.
> 
> ...


Are you kidding? If fireroads are firebreaks, then so are ST trails, paved roads, state boundaries, country boundaries, shorelines, flash floods, hurricanes, tornado destruction paths, and the dust flying off my 26er as I fly down the FIREROAD at full speed, hee hee!


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

ambassadorhawg said:


> Are you kidding? If fireroads are firebreaks, then so are ST trails, paved roads, state boundaries, country boudaries, shorelines, flash floods, hurricanes, tornado destruction paths, and the dust flying off my 26er as I fly down the FIREROAD at full speed, hee hee!


No.

Once again you are struggling with understanding what I posted.

Please find someone to help you understand this part of my previous post:

"By definition they are firebreaks that are used for fire fighting equipment access as well."

Unless you are using itsy bitsy fire trucks that can roll down singletrack, then singletrack is not being used as a firebreak, as fireroads all over are.

Around here it works like this:

Grass fire starts
Local agencies respond and set up containment lines
If the fire is at the urban margins the open space that's burning typically has established (boring) fire roads
Local agencies establish a fire line at the appropriate fire road and prevent the fire from jumping that fire break

Here's a recent example that you might find helpful:


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

sputnik said:


> No.
> 
> Once again you are struggling with understanding what I posted.
> 
> ...


No, no....A fire break is just that...a line of defense to stop a fire in it's tracks, generally a crude form of brush clearing, built w/o the intent for use as a means of transportation.

A fireroad, at least here in CALIFORNIA, is a tool used REGULARLY by vehicles (not only firetrucks) to access undeveloped areas (such as broadcast towers at the top of a mountain).

While each could be used as the other, the main purpose of a firebreak is to stop fire. The main purpose of a fireroad is for transportation. Perhaps "fireroad" is an incorrect name. Perhaps they should be renamed, "Steep dirt road that Ambassadorhawg likes to grind up and then fly down".

The mountain I regularly grind up has both. If you'd like, I will gladly take a picture of both and attach them tomorrow. In fact, if I can get into the correct angle, I think I can get a shot of one of the FIREROADS I ride on with a FIREBREAK coming off of it.

Now, if you live in another state or country, a firebreak may very well be exactly what you are defining it as. So, if that's the case, I apologize....


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

ambassadorhawg said:


> No, no....A fire break is just that...a line of defense to stop a fire in it's tracks, generally a crude form of brush clearing, *built w/o the intent for use as a means of transportation.*
> 
> A fireroad, at least here in CALIFORNIA, is a tool used REGULARLY by vehicles (not only firetrucks) to access undeveloped areas (such as broadcast towers at the top of a mountain).
> 
> While each could be used as the other, the main purpose of a firebreak is to stop fire. The main purpose of a fireroad is for transportation.


You need some help. I found it for you here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebreak

*"Firebreaks may also be man-made, and many of these also serve as roads, such as a logging road, jeep trail, secondary road, or a highway."*

p.s. I live in CA. The picture of the fireroad posted above, that was also used as a fire break, is also in CA.

Here's a picture of a fire break, that is not a fire road, from that same fire. The fire jumped this newly cut fire break.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

sputnik said:


> Why do you refer to that rocky road as a "fire road"?
> 
> It seems that for many folks anything that is wider than singletrack, that vehicles can navigate, is a "fire road" regardless of the road's history, intended use, proximity to combustibles, etc.
> 
> Can a rocky road be a fire road if there is no fire danger in that area?


Answer: OK, "fireroad" is a misused term for dirt road, but in California, everywhere is a fire hazard, so every dirt road here is a "fireroad".


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

ambassadorhawg said:


> everywhere is a fire hazard, so every dirt road here is a "fireroad".


Nope.

There are plenty of old stage/mining roads that are now impassable by fire vehicles. They might be able to be used as a fire break if a hand crew went to work on them but they are no longer roads that can be used by fire fighting equipment.

Also, please explain what the fire hazard would be on a California road like this one.










I don't think that is a fire road.


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## mtb 4ever (Jun 14, 2008)

I went over the bars on this fire road in WV.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

Anyway... if it suits where you want to go, or has other positive sides, ride it.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Coach Hoski said:


> Scott, if you are in Harper's Ferry, I'm in your neck of the woods. I live 3/4 of the year in Winchester, VA. The other 1/4 in metro Detroit. Ironically (I say ironically because MI doesn't have mountains, VA does), I like the Michigan trails MUCH more because there is a larger, more vocal, more prominent biking community that diligently maintains some GREAT singletrack. In VA, I found some okay ST in the George Washington National Forest, but definitely no fire roads like that! The fire roads I've ridden are extremely underwhelming, flat gravel that generally maintains a steady incline up a mountain.
> Where were those pictures taken? I was 100% on the ST side of this argument until I saw your pics, but I would love to ride that when I move back to VA this fall.


Hi Coach...

There are definitely plenty of underwhelming, flat gravel roads in GW National Forest...but there are piles of smaller, more interesting rocky roads and doubletrack. I honestly don't remember which road is in that pic, but I know it's in GWNF in the area north of US33.

I did a lot of off-pavement motorcycling before I got into mountain biking. In fact, The switch was because I got morally/ethically tired of blasting through the wilderness on a gas-engine-powered vehicle. Anyway, a motorcycle is an awesome tool for exploring hundreds and hundreds of miles of unpaved roads throughout a given region---you can cover a helluva lot more terrain that way! And many of the places I'm still trying to get to on my mountain bike I first discovered on the motorcycle.

Anyway, there are some long stretches of fire road in GWNF that switchback up mountains and are so covered in large loose rocks that they might actually be he'll on a mountain bike! Another fantastic road I'm dying to do on my mountain bike is Long Run Road, just southwest of Harrisonburg---this is an epic traverse across the mountains along the VA/WV line, and this fire road has everything---grassy doubletrack, sections that are nothing but sloping bedrock ledges, stream crossings, sandy sections---the works!

In my experience, mountain bikers are often only aware of a tiny percentage of these kinds of logging/fire roads...because you simply can't explore a lot of terrain on a bicycle without taking months to do it...and mountain bikers tend to only ride where other mountain bikers have ridden before. I almost never hear about true "MTB Exploration," where bikers ride places completely unknown to other bikers---that's the kind of thing I live to do!

Scott


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

SWriverstone said:


> I almost never hear about true "MTB Exploration," where bikers ride places completely unknown to other bikers---that's the kind of thing I live to do!


I too like to get out and explore, as does a good friend of mine who is retired. But as you point out earlier in your post, the exploring does take some time. And sometimes the end result is a miserable ride or a dead-end. So when I'm time-constrained, I tend to ride what I know. My friend gets in more exploring than I do. Neither of us has scratched the surface of all the old logging roads in the area.


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## idbrian (May 10, 2006)

Boring fireroads are boring. 

Boring singletrack are boring, but less boring than boring fireroads. 

Hope that helped.


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## JPinFL (Jun 6, 2010)

All I know is I am happier on a fire road, dirt road, or gravel road than when I am riding on a paved road.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

JPinFL said:


> All I know is I am happier on a fire road, dirt road, or gravel road than when I am riding on a paved road.


:thumbsup:

+1. Though I will admit to enjoying some of the lesser-traveled paved roads. I also know a couple short stretches of abandoned pavement to enjoy.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

sputnik said:


> Nope.
> 
> There are plenty of old stage/mining roads that are now impassable by fire vehicles. They might be able to be used as a fire break if a hand crew went to work on them but they are no longer roads that can be used by fire fighting equipment.
> 
> ...


It's not a "fireroad", it's a "dirt road". As I mentioned in an earlier reply, the term "fireroad" is misused. But I am still going to use the term because it drives you crazy and I like that! If you really want to know what the fire hazard is on that road....how about a volcanic eruption, terroristic attack, aircraft crash, fuel tanker truck crash, and so on. the possibilities are endless....ANYTHING can burn if you get it hot enough, LOL!

Have you ridden Twenty Mule Team road? How about Titus? How about Hunter? How about Racetrack rd.?


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

ambassadorhawg said:


> It's not a "fireroad", it's a "dirt road". As I mentioned in an earlier reply, the term "fireroad" is misused.


Whether misused or not, the term is colloquially used for many different types of road. Hence the controversy in this thread where there needn't really be any. If we were all standing together and physically looking at the same stretch of road, we'd probably be much more in agreement as to whether it is "interesting".


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

JonathanGennick said:


> Whether misused or not, the term is colloquially used for many different types of road. Hence the controversy in this thread where there needn't really be any. If we were all standing together and physically looking at the same stretch of road, we'd probably be much more in agreement as to whether it is "interesting".


Yeah I don't give a crap about the "real" definition of fire road. It is clear that the OP's intention is to discuss the potential riding opportunities on this country's non-paved roads, of which there are many types, and also many variations in steepness, roughness, remoteness, etc.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

smilinsteve said:


> Yeah I don't give a crap about the "real" definition of fire road. It is clear that the OP's intention is to discuss the potential riding opportunities on this country's non-paved roads, of which there are many types, and also many variations in steepness, roughness, remoteness, etc.


I agree. And the OP makes a good point.

Where I live, there is exactly one singletrack loop. That's it -- just the one. So unless you want to go round-and-round the same nine mile loop all the time, you branch out and begin riding the logging roads, or the ATV trails.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

mtb 4ever said:


> I went over the bars on this fire road in WV.


it was the G2 geometry not the trail!


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## JPinFL (Jun 6, 2010)

JonathanGennick said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> +1. Though I will admit to enjoying some of the lesser-traveled paved roads. I also know a couple short stretches of abandoned pavement to enjoy.


Oh yeah. Definitely. Plus there are some paved bike paths that are great for nice leisurely rides.


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## fattirefreak (Jun 7, 2008)

tromano said:


> I like fire roads. I love single track. I think roads and 1-track offer different challenges and require different skills. Learning how to ride open loose corners at speed is a challenge and if you haven't flown down a fire road at speed... Well me those are alot of fun, but are over too quickly. The speeds on roads DH are much higher than single track and that has its own sort of challenge. Stuff that seems trivial at 15mph is rough at 25 and bone jaring at 35.
> 
> As far as who gets the most adrenaline... I always get more from climbing and XC than from DH runs whether biking or skiing.


I agree. Out here in the high country (CO) I like to mix it up, while the goal for me is not FR, DH or Cross Country alone, but reaching and descending mt passes. I utilize fireroads, single tracks, jeep trails, double tracks etc. Whatever it takes and they are all knarly rock-strewn, washed out, tree/brush barricaded. Whether on a tight trail or other, as long as it is offroad. I'm all about conqueoring its uncommon path.


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## hado_pv (May 26, 2006)

*Fire-Roads*

They are fine if there are no other options. Most of the trails I've built in the past 3-4 years are specifically so we don't have to ride the steep, washed out, unmaintained stuff that proliferates in the New England woods.


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## chris1911 (May 26, 2009)

I guess i just find them boring. I love singletrack that winds through the woods.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

What a bunch of purists. I ride any surface and I'm happy as long as I'm on a bike. Some regions are not blessed with the singletrack I have, but I wouldn't suggest that the locals there give up mountain biking.

One of the most famous fire roads in mountain biking is "Repack," the site of the first downhill races. It's not singletrack and anyone with reasonable skills could get down it, but getting down it in less than five minutes will challenge anyone's skills.

As Gary Fisher observed a long time ago, "It's not the hill. It's the competition."


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## Slee_Stack (Apr 14, 2010)

I've yet to come across an interesting dirt/fire/logging/whatever road to ride around here. Everything has been gravel and generally exposed.

I prefer singletrack which is mostly in the woods here. It gives me:

More technical riding and
Protection from the sun (which is huge when the average temp is already 90-95).

If someone presented me a 'fireroad' with some of the technical features and woods showns in some pics above, I would definitely ride it.

But around here, fireroads = suck. 

Disclaimer: I probably haven't found any good ones yet...Maybe there are a few somewhere. I have lots of places to discover yet.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Food for thought...

I believe "mountain biking" means you can ride *anywhere*, period. Not only can you ride anywhere, but you *enjoy* riding anywhere. It's about *exploration* and taking *the path less-traveled*...and having the ability to handle whatever the path throws at you.

-----

What mountain biking is becoming: A hyper-specific activity requiring a *highly specialized, groomed, even manmade environment* with *particular surface characteristics*, *particular corner bank angles*, *specific path widths*, and* carefully-designed "moves" at predetermined places.*

-----

Sadly, it seems mountain biking is becoming more and more the latter-an activity focused exclusively on "parks" purpose-designed and built for the activity. I don't think these types of venues are bad, but the reality is that they tend to spoil people-why go ride in the *dirty, unpredictable, random outdoors* when you can get maximum bang for your time in a carefully-controlled environment?

A very similar thing has happened in whitewater paddling. Once upon a time, whitewater paddling was all about *running rivers.* Not any more-now it's about rodeo moves, play holes, and specific river features. Nobody runs rivers anymore...they put their 4-foot-long clorox bottle kayaks in the trunk of their sedan and drive to a hole, get out, paddle out to the hole and spin donuts and throw ends for an hour, then get back in their sedan and drive home. LOL

Someday, actually *riding a bike across the mountains *and *running rivers* will become popular again...but it's probably a ways off...

Scott

EDIT: The ironic thing is, I've actually been directly involved in the design and construction of artificial whitewater courses. (What was I thinking?)


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

It's kind of odd that people are getting their knickers in a knot because some people prefer single track and shun boring fire roads. Each to their own, I don't care what you ride, why on earth would you care what I prefer to ride?

"It's all riding" does not ring true for me, but I'm happy if it does for you.


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## Slee_Stack (Apr 14, 2010)

SWriverstone said:


> Food for thought...
> 
> I believe "mountain biking" means you can ride *anywhere*, period. Not only can you ride anywhere, but you *enjoy* riding anywhere. It's about *exploration* and taking *the path less-traveled*...and having the ability to handle whatever the path throws at you.
> 
> ...


Why would you exclude road biking from your original definition? Just because roads are paved, means they are heavily traveled? Maybe in LA. Not in rural America. How is a 'fire road' NOT man-made? Was that the point of the OP?

Also, with your second definition, why would you put down people for riding a certain type of trail? Should someone WANT to pack up their car, drive 30mi, to go riding on a flat gravel road? Not me. I live in a city. I ride a bike in the city. When I want to trail ride, I need to travel to get to a decent place to do it. I sure as heck ain't gonna take a road trip to ride a gravel road. Maybe some would and like that. Fine. Not me.

'Designed' trails serve many purposes, not the least of which is eco-consciousness. 
Perhaps what you mean is that you view mountain biking as only 'real' if you are bushwhacking, since any trail (path) that currently exists obviously was worn (aka man-made) by other riders/walkers/whatever. Maybe you think its fine and dandy to ride willy-nilly 'anywhere' but IMO, that's the perfectly IRRESPONSIBLE way to ride. You probably didn't mean that though.

So are 'paths' OK to ride or not? And while you're riding them (on your manmade implement BTW), aren't you just the same as those you appear to malign by going to those gadawful 'manmade environments' (aka trail systems)?

But you probably don't mean anything that you wrote in retrospect now do you? :skep:


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Well gosh Slee_Stack...no, I didn't mean ANY of those things.  I think you took my words too seriously and/or personally. They were meant to be taken the same way you'd take some old fart rocking on his porch eating peanuts and saying "Damn baseball players today don't know what the REAL game is any more!" LOL

I totally agree purpose-built parks serve a useful purpose (and mentioned I've actually built artificial whitewater courses). And I think it's ALL "real" mountain biking.

My original post was simply to suggest fire roads can be great to ride. I posted it because I've seen many other posts about rides with words like...

"...had a god-awful death-haul on a fire road before we got to the good stuff..."

or

"No way man, too many fire roads on that ride"

or

"It was fun til we got to the fire road..."

I'd say chances are good that if I posted a ride report that said...

"It was an awesome ride, except for that F'd up stretch of twisty singletrack we had no choice but to use to connect the two best fire roads!"

...I'd probably catch hell from all kinds of people! LOL 

Scott


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

SWriverstone said:


> Not only can you ride anywhere, but you *enjoy* riding anywhere.
> 
> What mountain biking is becoming: A hyper-specific activity requiring a *highly specialized, groomed, even manmade environment* with *particular surface characteristics*, *particular corner bank angles*, *specific path widths*, and* carefully-designed "moves" at predetermined places.*


That's a load of bullshoot right there.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

sputnik said:


> That's a load of bullshoot right there.


I hope you're right sputnik. I can say in the Mid-Atlantic region, almost every mountain biker I know would rather spend their time at purpose-built MTB trail networks than just head off into the mountains.

Yeah-I like the MTB trail parks too-and yeah, I realize people only have a little time, need to bike close to home, etc. etc.

But what I seem to notice more and more is that even when people have a *choice* (e.g. a whole free weekend) they'd still rather stick to the MTB parks in the 'burbs than head off to the mountains.

*Nothin' wrong with this. *

I wouldn't be surprised if in 10 or 20 years, we have a whole generation of urban bikers who have never even ridden in the mountains...and only ride indoor MTB parks like www.raysmtb.com

*Nothin' wrong with this.*

But I do think in certain parts of the country it does reflect a growing trend.

Scott


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

for the record, I refuse to water down my answer by acquiescing to the opinions presented in replies posted previously.

fireroads are great fun... if i need a day of "road" riding on the gravel-tourer with the trailer.
but it's not mountain biking, not to me.
I want terrain where I barely see 3 corners ahead, terrain that winds by necessity around trees and rocks bigger than me.
not terrain that cuts a swath 8 feet wide through the forest.
will I ride fireroads? yup
but it isn't my version of mountain biking.

that said; I'm on the Canadian shield, so turf-wise we're talking evergreen and deciduous forests and tons of alluvial upheaval.
so in the few trails I have access to, nothing like those rock-chip fireroads.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Scott, what are you talking about? I have no idea what you mean besides your reference to Ray's. Check out crankfire.com and add the trails layer, we don't have to ride fire roads here unless we have to, but most of the time we need to drive to get to the trail heads.

Raystown in PA is MTB specific trail, purpose built, purpose spec'ed, and fast and fun, worth a drive IMHO. 

Laurel Mt State Park in PA has great trails, is that the mountains? They're hiking trails that riders ride. 

Same thing in most East Coast places, we ride where hikers hike and share the trails with them. There are bike parks, but not everyone like blasting downhill through rock gardens and doing tables/gaps/jumps, rock rollers, etc. To my knowledge there are very few 100% purpose built trail systems around... KT, Raystown, White/Middle Creek, Ray's... what am I missing?


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

You're right *thefriar*-and I didn't mean to suggest that NOBODY rides trails in the mountains anymore. I'm in the Greater Washington D.C. area where there are several excellent MTB trail systems (Fountainhead, Wakefield, Schaeffer Farms, etc.)-these are all great trail systems and the MTBers I hear from seem obsessed with them-probably because they're so great! 

And I rode Raystown Lake for the first time a few weeks ago and it was fantastic!

I guess my point is this: if a club or other group takes the time to literally "hand sculpt" an amazing set of MTB trails, and create awesome banked corners, cool whoops, a variety of skinnies and ramped log-overs...who *wouldn't* want to ride there all the time? Places like that are AWESOME places to ride!

Some people who ride places like that frequently get accustomed to that level of purpose-built trails...to the point where if they ride a hiking trail in GW National Forest (which plenty of riders still do) the park-nuts are going to (rightly) say "This sucks-it's all rocky and off-camber and has miles-long climbs and no fun skinnies or cool ramped log-overs!"

BUT! There's one type of mountain biker who will always love riding non-MTB-specific trails in the mountains-and that is often the same kind of rider who enjoys fire roads (which brings us back on topic, LOL).

Because people who enjoy fire roads (more often than not) simply love being in the mountains and forests...away from the city and the burbs...and they love the roughness and unpredictability of it all...as well as the scenic vistas, the wildlife, the wildflowers, etc.

Anyway, I'm gonna shutup or I'll just dig myself deeper. :thumbsup:

Scott


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## tromano (Aug 23, 2007)

SW I hear you about the midatlantic. I grew up in the DC burbs and so many of the places people ride are developed by bikers for bikes. And thats cool. I tink they do a great job to build the trails they have given what they have to work with. I liked riding there alot. But... I like the riding better in now I am in UT.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

scienceseuss said:


> The truth is, if you're on two wheels on dirt you are mountain biking, I don't care whether it's the most pristine buff singletrack, an old dirt logging road, or a trail through the park... it's all mountain biking. Just ride.
> 
> Just my $0.02
> 
> - Jared


In general fire roads ARE boring. Now for beginners, okay, fine. Not a problem, you gotta start somewhere. But just cuz your tires are on dirt dont mean your mountain biking.

There is a difference between "Trail Riding" and "Mountain Biking". A HUGE difference.

Keep your two pennies.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

JonathanGennick said:


> I agree. And the OP makes a good point.
> 
> Where I live, there is exactly one singletrack loop. That's it -- just the one. So unless you want to go round-and-round the same nine mile loop all the time, you branch out and begin riding the logging roads, or the ATV trails.


That has to suck. You should move.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

SWriverstone said:


> Some people who ride places like that frequently get accustomed to that level of purpose-built trails...to the point where if they ride a hiking trail in GW National Forest (which plenty of riders still do) the park-nuts are going to (rightly) say "This sucks-it's all rocky and off-camber and has miles-long climbs and no fun skinnies or cool ramped log-overs!"
> ...
> Because people who enjoy fire roads (more often than not) simply love being in the mountains and forests...away from the city and the burbs...and they love the roughness and unpredictability of it all...as well as the scenic vistas, the wildlife, the wildflowers, etc.


You make some bold assumptions and it sounds like you're bored with your local trails, but I think you are trying to make two points here:

1. Some people don't get the concept of improve your skills, not the trails.

2. Fire road riders enjoy being away from city and burbs more than ST rides.

The 1st I can't agree with more. I can't stand trail sanitization and dumbing down of tech, either up your skills or walk, no shame in walking.

The second, I think you're taking your microcosm of the MTB universe and broadly applying it across the spectrum. Hence the bold assumption. Most ST out here in New England is rough and unpredictable, you must be in an area though where all your ST is designed to USFS guidelines with amazing TM crews working around their buns off to keep it that way.

I suggest you come ride Blue Mountain, Wilton Woods, Trumbull, Ringwood, Miller's Pond or some of the other techy singletrack trails that litter the NJ/NY/CT area and are in an easy ride for you from where you are in the DC metro. Heck even Highbridge Trails IN/ON Manhattan are techy, rough, unpredictable trails.

Also if you don't ride a place all the time, its going to be unpredictable no matter who built it and what they built it for. Try riding new places.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

byknuts said:


> fireroads are great fun... if i need a day of "road" riding on the gravel-tourer with the trailer.
> but it's not mountain biking, not to me.


Really? So, there is not one fire road in the whole world that would meet your high standards for mountain biking? He he. 
I know fire roads I have to walk down, or up, because they are so loose, steep and rutted, and singletracks that a 6 year old could do on her 16" huffy. 
When you paint such a broad stroke, you're asking to have it picked apart. 
Sure its easy to generalize that fire roads can be boring, or are in general more boring than singletrack, but most people use terms like "in general" to show that they understand that there are cases that are far outside the generalization.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> Really? So, there is not one fire road in the whole world that would meet your high standards for mountain biking? He he.
> I know fire roads I have to walk down, or up, because they are so loose, steep and rutted, and singletracks that a 6 year old could do on her 16" huffy.
> When you paint such a broad stroke, you're asking to have it picked apart.
> Sure its easy to generalize that fire roads can be boring, or are in general more boring than singletrack, but most people use terms like "in general" to show that they understand that there are cases that are far outside the generalization.


True. They are all different. But "generally" 99% of all fire roads are traversely flat and boring. They have to be. Thats the whole point of the road. Get the heavy equipment, water tankers, and personnel that arrive by school bus in and out of there quickly without getting stuck or breaking the vehicles on rough terrain. I feel no sense of accomplishment riding in the mountains on a road plowed by a bulldozer or grader whose intent was to make a path for a school bus full of firemen.

If anyone wants to call riding a bike on a road designed for buses and tankers mountain biking.... well lets just say you don't get the Spirit of our Sport.


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## JPinFL (Jun 6, 2010)

It's all preference. Some people enjoy singletrack, some enjoy fireroads. Others would rather ride their cruiser on the beach, while others would rather ride on the road. Who cares? It's all about riding your bike. 

I'd rather be "bored" on my bike riding around a parking lot than being bored in front of the television.


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## davidarnott (Feb 28, 2007)

*the only time I'm ever BORED*

is when I'm not BAKED


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

davidarnott said:


> is when I'm not BAKED


Now thats badass!!:thumbsup:


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## Earthpig (Jan 23, 2004)

I think this thread deserves a haiku:

Mountain biking on
dirt roads is just like circle
jerking with your mom.


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## scienceseuss (May 27, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> If anyone wants to call riding a bike on a road designed for buses and tankers mountain biking.... well lets just say you don't get the Spirit of our Sport.


No, let's _not _just say that. In fact, I would be inclined to say just the opposite is true (not that I would tell everyone to think that way).

Please stop telling people they "don't get the spirit of our sport" 'cause they don't ascribe to your particular ideas. This kind of preachy dogma is what helps makes narrow minded noobs.

- Jared


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## Hack (Jan 10, 2004)

anyone like to freeride on fire roads?


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

JonathanGennick said:


> I agree. And the OP makes a good point.
> 
> Where I live, there is exactly one singletrack loop. That's it -- just the one. So unless you want to go round-and-round the same nine mile loop all the time, you branch out and begin riding the logging roads, or the ATV trails.


I had the same problem where I live. So I built another 30 miles of singletrack and encouraged other people who complained about the shortage of trails to do the same. In 15 years, 4 or 5 people have added 50 miles of great mountain bike specific single track and another 20 miles or so of multi-use trails to our local system.

I still like to ride logging roads.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

@TrailNinja: Believe it or not, I do work on trail. Recently I took two full days off work to help revamp the one trail that we have. And I've helped with bits that we've created for a once-a-year, linear race. I haven't been able to build 30 miles worth though. I'd have to do that bootleg, and that's a can of worms I've so far preferred to avoid. 

Good that you've managed to build so much though. I just haven't had the right combination of time, opportunity, and the nerve.

We do have a club that is working with landowners to try and secure permission. That's been a long process, full of delay and frustration. We aren't there yet.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Trail Ninja said:


> I had the same problem where I live. So I built another 30 miles of singletrack and encouraged other people who complained about the shortage of trails to do the same. In 15 years, 4 or 5 people have added 50 miles of great mountain bike specific single track and another 20 miles or so of multi-use trails to our local system.
> 
> I still like to ride logging roads.


Trail Ninja...just out of curiousity, where the heck do you live that you're just able to go out and build 30 miles of trail!!!??? LOL

That would be just about impossible around here-unless we found some mystical owner of thousands of acres of land who also happened to be a mountain biking nut, LOL

Now...if you've done it bootleg...then I'd love to hear how you got away with it! 

Scott


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## RBowles (Jun 1, 2010)

We have a fire road that is a 1000 ft. climb. I love it, because when I get to the top there is some awesome trails there.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

If your real interest in mountain biking is this...










...then you probably don't enjoy fire roads. LOL

Scott


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

SWriverstone said:


> If your real interest in mountain biking is this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Were you sober when you took this shot??? Hmmmm?


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## yater (Nov 3, 2006)

Hack said:


> anyone like to freeride on fire roads?


"Freeriding" is gay.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

See that road in the picture? That is one bad ass road.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

scienceseuss said:


> No, let's _not _just say that. In fact, I would be inclined to say just the opposite is true (not that I would tell everyone to think that way).
> 
> Please stop telling people they "don't get the spirit of our sport" 'cause they don't ascribe to your particular ideas. This kind of preachy dogma is what helps makes narrow minded noobs.
> 
> - Jared


Hey its not "my idea". It's the norm and it is what it is. If you don't get it, then you might as well be riding a horse. Perhaps, what you call "preachy dogma" needs to be there to edge-u-ba-cate so called noobs. I'm not gonna tell someone they are a mountain biker or are mountain bike riding if their idea of mountain biking is a few miles up and back on a nice smooth road.

Just cuz you ride a mountain bike does not make you a "Mountain Biker"..... any more than riding a race bike makes you a "Bike racer".


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

What I often see in forum discussions is the participants redefining the premise of the discussion to fit their own argument:
For example, if you want to argue that fire roads are not worth riding, then you describe them as nice and smooth. etc.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

smilinsteve said:


> What I often see in forum discussions is the participants redefining the premise of the discussion to fit their own argument:
> For example, if you want to argue that fire roads are not worth riding, then you describe them as nice and smooth. etc.


Yeah, and I think that's the root of some of the craziness in this thread. The image that springs to mind in response to the term "fire road" varies widely amongst us.

Like I said once before, if we were all standing together on the same road, we'd probably find ourselves much closer to agreement than what our comments in this thread might suggest.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> Hey its not "my idea". It's the norm and it is what it is. If you don't get it, then you might as well be riding a horse. The preachy dogma needs to be there to edge-u-ba-cate noobs. I'm not gonna tell someone they are a mountain biker or are mountain bike riding if their idea of mountain biking is a few miles up and back on a nice smooth road.
> 
> Just cuz you ride a mountain bike does not make you a "Mountain Biker"..... any more than riding a race bike makes you a "Bike racer".


Just to play devil's advocate, lets not forget that much of the early mountain biking got it's start on roads, not trails. In fact I think Repack was/is a fire road.

I don't know that I have ever biked a "fire road', but I have ridden some pretty nice national forest roads out west with beautiful views, thousands of feet of elevation gain, and miles of total solitude. It's pretty fun to rip back down on the descent and I would most definitely classify it as mountain biking.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

6bobby9 said:


> Hey its not "my idea". It's the norm and it is what it is. If you don't get it, then you might as well be riding a horse. Perhaps, what you call "preachy dogma" needs to be there to edge-u-ba-cate so called noobs. I'm not gonna tell someone they are a mountain biker or are mountain bike riding if their idea of mountain biking is a few miles up and back on a nice smooth road.
> 
> Just cuz you ride a mountain bike does not make you a "Mountain Biker"..... any more than riding a race bike makes you a "Bike racer".


But posting a response like that makes you a jerk. :thumbsup:

I don't GAS what anyone rides, where they ride, or if they ride at all. Sheesh, some people's kids

No wonder this world's such a train wreck - everyone is an expert on what everyone else should do or think


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

SWriverstone said:


> Trail Ninja...just out of curiousity, where the heck do you live that you're just able to go out and build 30 miles of trail!!!??? LOL
> 
> That would be just about impossible around here-unless we found some mystical owner of thousands of acres of land who also happened to be a mountain biking nut, LOL
> 
> ...


You're almost exactly right Scott. I believe they own hundreds of thousands of acres. They own about 10% of Vancouver Island. A logging company that's MTB friendly. That's where the MTB singletrack goes.

The multi-use trail goes in regional parks. The regional government also "gets" biking.

I've done bootleg building in my time. As long as I make all the trails "carry in" it's not hard for me. I don't use any power equipment.

Take a look at the undergrowth in this video and you can see how easy it would be to hide a trail if you wanted to. http://www.pinkbike.com/video/147811/ (Not my trail but near one of mine.)

*
@JonathanGennick* I have to admit I am a little spoiled that I have access to so much land and time to build. I'm semi-retired and I put in 20 to 30 hours a week building trails. I sometimes forget that other people have limited time available to them.

I'm glad that you are part of the solution. In my opinion, if you work on trails *then* you have the right to complain about them. Complain away.


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## davidarnott (Feb 28, 2007)

*we ARE all in agreement*

aren't we?


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

@Trail Ninja...pretty cool video! Now I'm thinking I need to find some land that's owned by a logging company and approach them about trails...hmmm....  

Scott


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

> *we ARE all in agreement*
> aren't we?


Seriously. Call me a roadie if you want. I'll gladly ride that.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

SWriverstone said:


> @Trail Ninja...pretty cool video! Now I'm thinking I need to find some land that's owned by a logging company and approach them about trails...hmmm....
> 
> Scott


That boy can ride. 
Anyone who hasn't watched that video, watch it. Pretty cool.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

wv_bob said:


> But posting a response like that makes you a jerk. :thumbsup:
> 
> I don't GAS what anyone rides, where they ride, or if they ride at all. Sheesh, some people's kids
> 
> _No wonder this world's such a train wreck - everyone is an expert on what everyone else should do or think_


HAHA!! You sound old, bitter and cranky. There's obviously a few generation gaps between you and I.

Look I'm sorry. I apologize if you cant handle the debate here. I don't know what you thought you would find in the thread but it is titled

*"What's wrong with fire roads?"* and is an obvious invitation for opinions. Sheesh, some peoples granparents. lol

If you cant keep you cool maybe you should go here.

http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=39.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

davidarnott said:


> aren't we?


Nice. Where is that?


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

No doubt that Bob is a cranky old fart, and no doubt you are a jerk. To presume you can decide what is, or is not, mountain biking. Ha.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

Trail Ninja said:


> I'm glad that you are part of the solution. In my opinion, if you work on trails *then* you have the right to complain about them. Complain away.


I didn't mean my earlier comment as a complaint. Sorry if it came out that way. I was trying to emphasize how little singletrack we have where I live, and hence the need to ride other options such as the surfeit of old logging trails. Some of those old logging trails are quite good too.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

6bobby9 said:


> Nice. Where is that?


Why are you asking? I didn't think it would meet your standards.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

@davidarnot: Dude! Awesome trail. Or road. Oh, who cares what it is. Just tell me _where _it is.

Good photo, btw.


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

Trail Ninja said:


> Seriously. Call me a roadie if you want. I'll gladly ride that.


Another one who GETS it.

This site hasn't changed at all in over ten years. Back then it was HT versus FS, or V versus Canti, DH versus XC...and so on and so on.

Why do some people need to try to take the piss out of someone that was enjoying themselves? Seriously, getting angry because it's not and 8" wide path? Nobody is forcing the "hardcore" (lol) riders on to fire roads

To all those that are so defensive against riding fireroads, what are you trying to compensate for?.

*Most of them do suck, so what's it's too you if someone wants to ride a boring trail? You aren't being herded off the single track by stormtroopers, why do you guys care so much? *

I know what it is. All the guys that hate fireroads SO MUCH, don't have girlfriends. Or at least aren't trying to introduce one to MTBing. They are angry because they aren't getting laid. When you get some on a regular basis, you don't care if people are riding fireroads or freaking Mount Everest. Stop trying to impress us with your hardcore-d-ness and get laid once in a while. You'll be much less angry.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

froggy97 said:


> I know what it is. *All the guys that hate fireroads SO MUCH, don't have girlfriends.*


:lol:

Yeah!

I guess since broad generalities work so well here, that one fits right in.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> Why are you asking? I didn't think it would meet your standards.


Ahh, you now qualify for the JERK standard as well.:thumbsup:

Well, If you must know, or didn't know, there's gotta be some single track in there somewhere for the "core".


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

JonathanGennick said:


> I didn't mean my earlier comment as a complaint. Sorry if it came out that way. I was trying to emphasize how little singletrack we have where I live, and hence the need to ride other options such as the surfeit of old logging trails. Some of those old logging trails are quite good too.


Maybe I used the wrong word. I just hear a lot of "complaints" from people who think that "somebody" should build more singletrack. That's obviously not you.

Back to the topic of fire roads. I've got thousands of miles of logging roads outside my back door and hundreds of miles of "trail". I'll ride it all eventually (or die of old age first). I'll even ride pavement to get to some of it.

Anyone who thinks I'm not a mountain biker....


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## Mtn-Rider (May 21, 2010)

Where the heck is this cool trail?








</img>


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

froggy97 said:


> Another one who GETS it.
> 
> This site hasn't changed at all in over ten years. Back then it was HT versus FS, or V versus Canti, DH versus XC...and so on and so on.
> 
> ...


Twisting the thread topic I see? Somehow anyone not liking to ride fireroads now is due to no girlfriends or getting laid? you've gotten a lil angry and gone I little of topic haven't ya? You sound sexually frustrated.

I don't see where anyone is saying NOT to ride fireroads and neither am I but its 4 pages long so maybe someone did. In my comments I tried to explain "Whats' wrong with fire roads".... as I see it. I'm not asking anyone to agree, I am just giving my opinion in an opinion oriented thread.

If you don't agree. Its ok.
But if you cant handle the answer. Then don't ask.



smilinsteve said:


> To presume you can decide what is, or is not, mountain biking. Ha.


I live in the Rocky Mountains. So I have have a pretty good idea of what mountain biking is.
.


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> Really? So, there is not one fire road in the whole world that would meet your high standards for mountain biking? He he.
> I know fire roads I have to walk down, or up, because they are so loose, steep and rutted, and singletracks that a 6 year old could do on her 16" huffy.
> When you paint such a broad stroke, you're asking to have it picked apart.
> Sure its easy to generalize that fire roads can be boring, or are in general more boring than singletrack, but most people use terms like "in general" to show that they understand that there are cases that are far outside the generalization.


wow, misquoted, misunderstood, missed every point that I made.

what's broad-stroke about "can't see past 3 corners away, terrain that winds by necessity around trees and rocks, not a swath through the forest 8 feet wide" ? 
that's pretty specific about what I like in a trail isn't it?
fireroads are by necessity cut and designed for truck access there's nothing wrong with that and some are challenging but rutted fireroad is not winding forest.

if you re-read my post you'll clearly see that "challenge" isn't the point of my post, "terrain" is. the fun for me is chasing the wind through the trees never knowing what's around the corner and GREENERY.

big sandstone country might be your thing but it's not mine, moab is NOT on my list of places to go either, is that really so hard to believe?
post pics of beautiful chiprock trails all you want, I'll admire their beauty, but it's not why I got into riding offroad.
sorry if you can't grasp that.

BTW  I never used the words "in general" in my post. 
but you use it in your argument against my post... 
I think you should try not to generalize about "difficulty of the trail" as being why I don't like fireroads.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

byknuts said:


> wow, misquoted, misunderstood, missed every point that I made.
> 
> what's broad-stroke about "can't see past 3 corners away, terrain that winds by necessity around trees and rocks, not a swath through the forest 8 feet wide" ?
> that's pretty specific about what I like in a trail isn't it?
> ...


YES! Well Put.:thumbsup:

Another one who GETS it.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Alright everybody, calm down. :rockon:

I'm officially declaring the thread from this point on to be...a thread in SUPPORT of riding fire roads! :thumbsup: So if you think riding fire roads isn't mountain biking, we _politely_ ask you to leave the room. 

On the other hand, if you enjoy riding fire roads (even if only once in a while) and have more good fire road pics to post (or good fire road stories), post 'em up!

:rockon:

Scott

PS - As an aside...I'd say that ANY form of bicycling that's NOT done on paved roads is, for the present, mountain biking. UNTIL someone comes up with a universally-accepted alternative name to describe those "inbetween" riders who may not enjoy hardcore technical singletrack...but enjoy fire roads!  (But wait...what if someone enjoys technical singletrack...AND fire roads? What are they??? Doh...)


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

6bobby9 said:


> I live in the Rocky Mountains. So I have have a pretty good idea of what mountain biking is.
> .


You're starting to sound like Sarah Palin. 
You know, the "I can see Russia from my house" thing.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> You're starting to sound like Sarah Palin.
> You know, the "I can see Russia from my house" thing.


lol!! Below the belt man. 

But it could have been worse. I could have voted for Obama:nono:

Be safe guys and have good rides this weekend. Its time to hit the mountains!!!


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

byknuts said:


> wow, misquoted, misunderstood, missed every point that I made.
> 
> what's broad-stroke about "can't see past 3 corners away, terrain that winds by necessity around trees and rocks, not a swath through the forest 8 feet wide" ?
> that's pretty specific about what I like in a trail isn't it?
> ...


Ok, I did re-read your post, which said this:



> fireroads are great fun... if i need a day of "road" riding on the gravel-tourer with the trailer.
> but it's not mountain biking, not to me.


So you obviously have a pre-conceived notion of what a fire road is, and are not entertaining anything outside of your narrow definition. Gravel tourer with trailer? I think people here have already made it abundantly clear that there are fire roads where that set up would not do so well. Ignore it if you like, but just because you want to stubbornly stick to the picture in your head, that doesn't make it reality of what fire roads are.

As for your ideal trail, I have no problem with that. But it surprises me that anyone would have no interest in something outside what they already know and like. No interest in Moab? Yes that does surprise me. 
Personally, I've ridden in many parts of this country, AZ desert to Southern forests, rockies, pacific NW, Hawaii, blue ridge, No Cal, and parts of Mexico, etc. I've loved it all, and could not imagine having a mentality to think "I don't like this, cause its not like that".
But that's how you are, ok. Now I understand. You want trees blurring by and nothing else. Ok.

But, whether you like other things or not, words have meaning. The term mountain biking certainly encompasses more than what you describe for your ideal. Trying to re define the term to fit your own mentality comes off as snobbery.

As an example, if this was a skiing forum and people were posting pictures of their favorite runs, blue diamonds, green circles, whatever, it would be obnoxious to jump in and say 
"that's not skiing, not to me".
"I like heli skiing in 8 foot deep powder on slopes at least 45 degrees where no one has ever gone before." 
Great, you can like that, but that doesn't diminish what others like. And likewise, it doesn't change the definition of mountain biking. 
Considering mountain bikes and the term mountain biking was invented by guys bombing down dirt roads, it's kind of a silly argument.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

This is "REAL" snowboarding...





Terje Haakonsen First Decent from unloved on Vimeo.

fukkin bad-ass though


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

ambassadorhawg said:


> As I mentioned in an earlier reply, the term "fireroad" is misused.


It does not matter. As long as the anal retentive dictionary police is ignored, we all know what we are talking about.

I like riding on wide trails. I can ride faster and see more things. And wide trails can be technical.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> In general fire roads ARE boring. Now for beginners, okay, fine. Not a problem, you gotta start somewhere. But just cuz your tires are on dirt dont mean your mountain biking.
> 
> There is a difference between "Trail Riding" and "Mountain Biking". A HUGE difference.


You completely and utterly failed to get it.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Curmy said:


> You completely and utterly failed to get it.


Right?!
6Bobby9, did you miss Charlie's post?

He's one of the reasons why 'Mountain Biking' is even why it's called that - literally (due to a missed Patent/TradeMark opportunity)


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

highdelll said:


> Right?!
> 6Bobby9, did you miss Charlie's post?
> 
> He's one of the reasons why 'Mountain Biking' is even why it's called that - literally (due to a missed Patent/TradeMark opportunity)


Sorry for the delay. It was time to ride. Where I'm from, people have been riding in the mountains since WWII. Notoriety and patents just dont mean a whole lot when it come years after its already something thats already been in existence. Theres no one person or group who can claim to be the "inventor" - literally. My father and grandfather had a hand in some of the trails here in New Mexico. My great-grandfather owned much of the land at the time. Its not recorded in history books or patents but the trails are there and have been there for 60-70 years and most dont know how they got there. But they were there decades before History records the dawn of the mountain bike age in the 70's.

Dude, do you realize you have almost 8000 posts in 2 years? You should spend more time riding than arguing on the interwebz.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

6bobby9 said:


> Dude, do you realize you have almost 8000 posts in 2 years? You should spend more time riding than arguing on the interwebz.


8000 in 2 years is nothing. My son will do 8000 texts in a month (seriously!)
I don't know why you had to go for the personal attack.

It is true that people have been biking on dirt for a long long time. Bikes have been around since before there were paved roads! But that doesn't change the fact that modern mountain biking is a sport that began around 30 years ago by guys on dirt roads developing bikes that were up to the task. It is a point in time where people went from doing their own thing, to a mass enlightenment of the potential for a new sport.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> ...
> 
> Dude, do you realize you have almost 8000 posts in 2 years? You should spend more time riding than arguing on the interwebz.


I wasn't trying to argue
Just got back from a ride
and I love this place:thumbsup:

+ I'm trying to beat SMT


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

there are all different kinds of fireroads, and just as many ways to use them. Even the flatest most boringest cinder trail/road can have cool rocks and lauches just off the sides, to be riden up/over/down or used as jumps. I've ridden fire roads you'd be hard pressed to drive up with anything short of a hummer or rm250.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> 8000 in 2 years is nothing. My son will do 8000 texts in a month (seriously!)
> I don't know why you had to go for the personal attack.


Man, your not kidding on the texting. I have a 13 yearold.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> I don't know why you had to go for the personal attack.


Substitute for an actual argument.


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

thats only 10-12 posts a day, kind of easy if you keep them short,


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

herbn said:


> thats only 10-12 posts a day, kind of easy if you keep them short,


good guess 
"Total Posts: 7,882 (12.19 posts per day) "

I've got a bit to do before I can catch SMT
"Total Posts: 39,540 (16.67 posts per day) "


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## mwayne5 (Apr 4, 2009)

I like fire roads, they can be a bi*** to climb on a hardtail sometimes.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Who could complain about cruising down a road like that?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> Who could complain about cruising down a road like that?


Not enough jumps and beer stations.


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## mwayne5 (Apr 4, 2009)

highdelll said:


> Not enough jumps and beer stations.


oh those are just around the corner


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

mwayne5 said:


> oh those are just around the corner


Watch OUT!
I'm coming in HOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## CEB (Mar 17, 2005)

If the terra firma ain't so firma then it's for a mtbike. Go ride somewhere.......


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

*WARNING!!! FIRE ROAD MTB VIOLATION DETECTED!!!*

https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=7106640&posted=1#post7106640











(These guys clearly didn't get the "Singletrack ONLY!" memo...)

Scott


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

SWriverstone said:


> (These guys clearly didn't get the "Singletrack ONLY!" memo...)


Neither did all those old Kamikaze Downhill riders. They destroyed the purity of mountain biking by not sticking to riding paths under 4 feet wide.


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## simian23 (Aug 13, 2004)

It's an American thing. 99.999% of mountain bikers in Europe (central Europe from my experience anyway) ride fireroads (Forststrassen) almost exclusively. I'm the weird American riding all the hiking trails.

To be fair, even the fattest oldest slowest Euro rider will crush the average American rider on any uphill, and the .001% that do ride the singletrack can REALLY ride it...and will ride uphills like a roadie. But even that is done weirdly - mostly they fixate on trialsy sort of downhill singletrack.

So it depends on where you ride. Personally, I don't mind riding fireroads uphill, but they feel like wasted fun going downhill, unless I'm racing.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

simian23 said:


> To be fair, even the fattest oldest slowest Euro rider will crush the average American rider on any uphill.


Exaggerating much? (..and I am not a U.S. native, so I do not take that as a personal insult)

Folks I meet on the trails around here (California) are all quite fit. Maybe it is the Midwest that drags the "average" down. No idea, never found a reason to go there..


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

it's the dakota's that drag down our collective climbing ability,all the fat floridians also.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

How we roll in "my neck of the woods". Pun intended. Vid recorded yesterday by Poacher567. Be sure to toggle HD


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## dm1333 (Jun 27, 2010)

An e-assist would help you get more air on some of those jumps.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

dm1333 said:


> An e-assist would help you get more air on some of those jumps.


I do not think he needs any more air.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

dm1333 said:


> An e-assist would help you get more air on some of those jumps.


You cant read. Try again. Maybe when you get to 10 posts you can take the training wheels off your e-bike and and hit the narly pro-core fire road. HAHAHAHA!!!

loser. Go charge the battery on your e-bike so you dont have a heart attack tomorrow.


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## scienceseuss (May 27, 2008)

Sweet trails 6bobby9, but no matter how much fun I'm sure I'd have fun riding that, I bet there are some amazing long fire/logging road treks, or even short dirt road sections to link up other trails, and I'd probably enjoy riding those on any given day too. See, like many of the other posters have expressed, I just love riding my bike pretty much anywhere where I'm out in nature on dirt (and even sometimes even on pavement... oh the horror! :yikes. Can you at least admit that maybe there is more to "the spirit" of MTBing than singletrack?


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

To the singletrack purists (and this is NOT an attack!)...if riding fire roads isn't really mountain biking, then what do you call it?

Seriously...I've never heard a term/name for bicycling unpaved surfaces that aren't singletrack. Maybe we need one? (Again, I'm not joking!)

I mean, every sport typically has a "generic" term that covers the WHOLE sport...then lots of subspecialty names for the various disciplines within the sport.

If we have downhill, freeride, XC, etc...then what do you call riding fire roads, nice smooth doubletrack, towpaths along canals, etc?

Scott


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

SWriverstone said:


> To the singletrack purists (and this is NOT an attack!)...if riding fire roads isn't really mountain biking, then what do you call it?


Someone on another thread awhile back threw out the term "dirt-pathing". I had to laugh, because that's actually a pretty good description of most of my riding. There are no mountains where I live, and there's only one trail nearby that I'd call "technical". Mostly, I'm out there just "dirt-pathing" on old logging roads and ATV trails.

Not sure a Dirt-Pathing Bike would sell too well though. The Specialized Dirt Pather? The Dustjumper? The Gravelhopper? Maybe Dustjumper could work.


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## dm1333 (Jun 27, 2010)

> You cant read. Try again. Maybe when you get to 10 posts you can take the training wheels off your e-bike and and hit the narly pro-core fire road. HAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> loser. Go charge the battery on your e-bike so you dont have a heart attack tomorrow.


Oh, I can read just fine Bobby. You got me with that 10 post jab, 'cuz we all know a high post count means you get smarter, faster and better looking as your post count goes up. Not only would I like to ride that gravel road that SWriverstone posted a picture of, I'd love to ride it on one of my recumbents. That way there wouldn't be _any_ sore asses around, unlike on this thread! 

SWriverstone, I don't think we need another name for what amounts to riding a bike. Mountain biking does just fine for a whole bunch of things, especially when mountain biking was born on a gravel road on Mt. Tamalpais. Riding fire roads is getting back to the roots of the sport, the "spirit" if you will.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Yeah, I agree dm1333...the phrase "mountain biking" is fine with me.

I never cease to be amazed at how differently people interpret it though. I mean, some people around here love nothing better than literally crawling over ridiculously technical rocky trails-I'm talking trails where there is *not even a single track*-at a pace slower than I could hike with a backpack. (In other words, it's basically trials riding from point A to point B.)

To me...that's not "bicycling"-that's* "balancing on two wheels while trying to climb over sharp rocks."* LOL

But hey, richness in diversity, right? :thumbsup:

Scott


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

CLEARLY, people have widely different definitions of the term "fire road". 

Most of what I call "fire roads" you would need a fairly capable 4wd truck with good clearance to drive on. They are NOT intended for buses or cars. They are no more level than the trails systems that surround them. I think what some people here are considering to be fire roads are what I call dirt/gravel roads . 

Dirt roads may or may not be mountain biking, but fire roads are absolutely an aspect of it.

I think it is really sad when people get so wrapped up in one aspect of something like mtb that they lose sight of what else it has to offer. Yes, the biggest adrenaline rush is usually on singletrack, but fire roads give you more of a chance for you to look around a bit. Also, there are remote areas where only fire roads can get to. Or many times it is fire roads that link up sections of single track. When I am riding with my buddies, these are the sections we get to talk to each other.

Finally, look at what many of the early "mtb" crowd were actually riding on. It is what I would call "fire roads".


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

scienceseuss said:


> Sweet trails 6bobby9, but no matter how much fun I'm sure I'd have fun riding that, I bet there are some amazing long fire/logging road treks, or even short dirt road sections to link up other trails....


If you are talking about the video, some of that IS what we call "fire road" around here, and not just the ones he crossed. Wide clearing, and you could drive a capable 4wd truck on it.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

scienceseuss said:


> Sweet trails 6bobby9, but no matter how much fun I'm sure I'd have fun riding that, I bet there are some amazing long fire/logging road treks, or even short dirt road sections to link up other trails, and I'd probably enjoy riding those on any given day too. See, like many of the other posters have expressed, I just love riding my bike pretty much anywhere where I'm out in nature on dirt (and even sometimes even on pavement... oh the horror! :yikes. Can you at least admit that maybe there is more to "the spirit" of MTBing than singletrack?


I gotcha. Look. I dont care what everyone calls it. I was never trying to convert anyone to what I believe mountain biking is or is not. I just shared my opinion and a few peeps got offended and some flamin ensued. Obviously there is a line somewhere on what is mountain biking is and what it is not. Not everyone will agree. No surprise there and that's okay. The whole point of this thread was to lend opinions. I gave mine and others gave theirs. If you like riding roads, I don't care. If anyone wants to call it mountain biking, I really dont care about that either. Call it whatever you want. To me riding fireroads is not mountain biking but I dont mind if you ride there. That just means there is less people on the single track.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> That just means there is less people on the single track.


:thumbsup:


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

dm1333 said:


> especially when mountain biking was born on a gravel road on Mt. Tamalpais.


Wow.


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## Slee_Stack (Apr 14, 2010)

SWriverstone said:


> To the singletrack purists (and this is NOT an attack!)...if riding fire roads isn't really mountain biking, then what do you call it?
> 
> Seriously...I've never heard a term/name for bicycling unpaved surfaces that aren't singletrack. Maybe we need one? (Again, I'm not joking!)
> Scott


Touring? Path Riding? Wagon Wheeling? Shitclouding?


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

sputnik said:


> Wow.


Go on.. 

I think this thread does not have enough arguments.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Slee_Stack said:


> Touring? Path Riding? Wagon Wheeling? Shitclouding?


Hump biking. Not quite mountain. Or just - humping.

:skep:


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

Curmy said:


> Go on..
> 
> I think this thread does not have enough arguments.


The depth of his ignorance is astounding.

Repack is not on Tam nor is it a gravel road.

But what can you expect from a 'bent freak whose ass is so tender that he needs to lay on his back in order to ride a bike...


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

cindercross,,,have you seen how the roadys bounce around on the cobblestones of the tdf not to mention paris roubioux(sp?), if you'r using a special bike for that is it still roadbiking?


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## Bodie6 (Sep 17, 2009)

:thumbsup: Some fire roads give me the pemi-grin!


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

herbn said:


> if you'r using a special bike for that is it still roadbiking?


You mean Cancellara's electric assist?


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

sputnik said:


> The depth of his ignorance is astounding.
> 
> Repack is not on Tam nor is it a gravel road.
> 
> But what can you expect from a 'bent freak whose ass is so tender that he needs to lay on his back in order to ride a bike...


Mr Smarty pants!
Who said Repack was the beginning of Mountain biking? 
The Larkspur Canyon gang raced down Mt. Tam in 1971, 3 years before the first repack race. 
Not saying that was the beginning either, but we're getting pretty close.
Not a gravel road? Then what?

Good info:
http://www.sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/repack.htm
http://www.sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/seminar.htm
http://www.mtnbikehalloffame.com/page.cfm?pageid=13206


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## magsdad (Oct 26, 2005)

*Wow, just read the entire thread.*

I like to ride bikes.


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

smilinsteve said:


> Who said Repack was the beginning of Mountain biking?


http://www.mtnbikehalloffame.com/page.cfm?pageid=14



smilinsteve said:


> Not a gravel road? Then what?


Old ranch road that became a fire road and service road but not a gravel road.

No gravel was brought in to create the road bed (thus, not a gravel road).


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

sputnik said:


> Old ranch road that became a fire road and service road but not a gravel road.
> 
> *No gravel was brought in to create the road bed (thus, not a gravel road).*


I'm all for smart-ass semantics, but this takes the cake


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

highdelll said:


> I'm all for smart-ass semantics, but this takes the cake


It's simply the truth.

Anyone who has ridden Tam and the surrounding lands understands that they aren't gravel roads.

Heck, even Railroad Grade which must have had gravel laid down for the railbed ago) isn't a gravel road.

Apparently some people don't understand what "gravel road" means, just as many folks don't understand what "fire road" means.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

sputnik said:


> It's simply the truth.
> 
> Anyone who has ridden Tam and the surrounding lands understands that they aren't gravel roads.
> 
> ...


Oh, I get it - just givin' you sh!t - see my original post on disambiguation :thumbsup:


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

sputnik said:


> http://www.mtnbikehalloffame.com/page.cfm?pageid=14


The link is the history of Repack. It doesn't say that repack is the origination of mountain biking. 
No doubt repack needs to mentioned as part of the history and origination of modern mountain biking, as does Mt. Tam.



> Old ranch road that became a fire road and service road but not a gravel road.
> 
> No gravel was brought in to create the road bed (thus, not a gravel road).


You are right, he should have said a gravelly road with gravel on it that looks gravelly. Yawn.
Do you happen to have first hand knowledge that no gravel was ever brought in as part of the construction or the maintenance of that road, ever?


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> How we roll in "my neck of the woods". Pun intended. Vid recorded yesterday by Poacher567. Be sure to toggle HD


Looks too crowded for my tastes.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

I'm going to fire-ride some fire-road on my fire-bike tonight. Hopefully I don't get confused and take my gravel-bike:eekster:


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> ...
> Do you happen to have first hand knowledge that no gravel was ever brought in as part of the construction or the maintenance of that road, ever?


ooooh...interesting...
what about screened material actually from the site. Surely that makes a form of gravel? no?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

boomn said:


> I'm going to fire-ride some fire-road on my fire-bike tonight. Hopefully I don't get confused and take my gravel-bike:eekster:


Don't do it man!!
unless you have your nomex jersey on...if so, carry on - carry on


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## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

smilinsteve said:


> You are right, he should have said a gravelly road with gravel on it that looks gravelly. Yawn.
> Do you happen to have first hand knowledge that no gravel was ever brought in as part of the construction or the maintenance of that road, ever?


I've ridden Repack dozens of times. Have you?

It's not a gravel road.

Please share your experience with the fire roads that are being discussed.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

highdelll said:


> Don't do it man!!
> unless you have your nomex jersey on...if so, carry on - carry on


I love the discussion. Reminds me of a few years back when I was earning a paycheck by sitting on various standards committees - computer related.

We could go on discussing some utterly irrelevant crap for hours before switching to choosing a restaraunt for dinner.

Oh, the good old times... Not so gravely road beds and stuff.


----------



## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

BumpityBump said:


> Looks too crowded for my tastes.


Real mountain bikers do not shoot video. That was video-biking.


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## tjeepdrv (Aug 14, 2008)

The fire roads around here are gravel roads with gates at the ends to keep cars out. There's paths where ATV's go around them. They're perfectly smooth and boring. Some of the pics in this thread look like fun places to ride though.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

BumpityBump said:


> Looks too crowded for my tastes.


Yeah it was crowded last weekend. It was a two day event and drumroll: please....) there was beer from a couple local brewers and Live Music:band: . So yeah... it was a party weekend:thumbsup:



Curmy said:


> Real mountain bikers do not shoot video. That was video-biking.


Wrong, wrong, wrong. Real mountain bikers not only record the ride (well, once in a while...), they drink beer after.

Did I mention there was beer. :thumbsup:

HAHA!! I love this but Curmy, you gotta get more original. Your disappointing me. If your gonna post something at least entertain me with it. Your replies have stalled to the point your making me want to go ride a fireroad to get an adrenaline rush.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> Wrong, wrong, wrong. Real mountain bikers not only record the ride (well, once in a while...), they drink beer after.


I guess even single track will not save me now, as I do not drink, and do not pose for cameras.



6bobby9 said:


> Your disappointing me.


I am really happy to hear that.


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## fattirefreak (Jun 7, 2008)

SWriverstone said:


> Yeah, I agree dm1333...the phrase "mountain biking" is fine with me.
> 
> I never cease to be amazed at how differently people interpret it though. I mean, some people around here love nothing better than literally crawling over ridiculously technical rocky trails-I'm talking trails where there is *not even a single track*-at a pace slower than I could hike with a backpack. (In other words, it's basically trials riding from point A to point B.)
> 
> ...


Guilty as charged. When I started mtbing back in the 90s in MN I was fine with the definition of the sport as merely offroading on two wheels, but since moving to CO almost 10 years ago, Mountain biking has become just that. A masochistic ride up the steep, knarly tracks (single-double-4wd) for 10s of miles. The reward for your effort: reaching an incredible vista and flying down a technical track for like ever. As far as singletrack purists go, I think you guys are missing the point. Its not "my way or the highway", its whatever way as long as its not paved and/or boring.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> Yeah it was crowded last weekend. It was a two day event and drumroll: please....) there was beer from a couple local brewers and Live Music:band: . So yeah... it was a party weekend:thumbsup:


Well that I can understand then. :thumbsup:


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

*For all the "fireroad haters":*

I'll make a deal with you...

I will stop calling the unpaved roads (that I often ride upon) "fireroads" if you stop calling the trails (that I also often ride upon) "singletrack", LOL!

Sure there's different widths of TRAILS and singletrack generally defines the narrow, single lane trails but in fact they are all just TRAILS, whatever the width. Just like "fireroads" are in fact unpaved, dirt roads which can be the width of one vehicle or two...LOL!!!

In other words, if keep it simple or complicate everything and remain ANAL! :crazy:


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

*Didn't know biking had fundamentalists*

All he asked was why the hate?

Fundamentalist MTBers?!! Seriously, this thread has knobbie fundamentalists (KFs)!!! We can't have divergent views of how we enjoy our time?

Is there a sacred holy book in mountain biking that says it's a sin to kick back and enjoy a simple ride?

The anger and vitriol over such a simple thing is reminiscent of the religious wingnut fundamentalists that only see the world through a narrow lens. Now we have the KFs

Are we headed for a terrorist group called Al Kenda (had to) forming cells? Are they going to firebomb roadie bike shops? What about those of us that use the fireroad to get back to the trail head? Are we gonna be sniped by some knobbie fundamentalist (KF) right after they scream infidel!!!.

Everyone stay off the fireroads!!! It's only a matter of time before Al Kenda operatives kidnap an unsuspecting biker and behead them. Or bury them up to their heads and slowly stone them with gravel. These are not rational people, you cannot reason with them.

WE WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH AL KENDA!!!!


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

froggy97 said:


> WE WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH AL KENDA!!!!


I took the brake off my fork - now I have a Suicide Bomber!


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

For all those whining and complaining that fireroads are wrong, read your history. Ritchey, Fisher, Breeze, Scott. Phelan, Cragg all rode 'Klunkerz' down fireroads.

The trails that you fundamentalists say are pure were created after the fact.

To all you "purists" (read: fundamentalists) back in the day they had no suspension. Kamikazee was done on klunkerz.

Imagine running this fireroad on a rigid cruiser, the above mentioned names did





.






I've done the pilgrimage to Mammoth years ago and Kamikaze was an epiphany.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

froggy97 said:


> For all those whining and complaining that fireroads are wrong, read your history. Ritchey, Fisher, Breeze, Scott. Phelan, Cragg all rode 'Klunkerz' down fireroads.
> ....


Don't forget Charlie Kelly AKA Repack Rider who posts here quite often 

He's even got his own wiki entry :thumbsup:


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

meh. Some of the strongest emotions in this thread seem to be from the people offended that not everyone loves fireroads. Many riders these days do strongly dislike fireroad, but some of you guys seem to strongly dislike those other riders.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

froggy97 said:


> For all those whining and complaining that fireroads are wrong, read your history. Ritchey, Fisher, Breeze, Scott. Phelan, Cragg all rode 'Klunkerz' down fireroads.
> 
> THAT'S WHERE THE SPORT WAS BORN!!!! The trails that you fundamentalists say are pure were created after the fact.
> 
> ...


No.I just rode a trail in White Mesa, NM. It has been there since 1938. There are many other old ass trails as well. This has already been discussed in this thread. Go back and read it.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

highdelll said:


> Don't forget Charlie Kelly AKA Repack Rider who posts here quite often
> 
> He's even got his own wiki entry :thumbsup:


Yep , CK posted earlier in this thread in case some of you missed it .


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

Sorry CK, there are more names to list I cut the list of pioneers short, no offence

6bobby9. Saying that anything is born in a locale is over-the-top, mea culpa. Are we going to now have a tangential debate about equestrian trails and bikes. Did you enjoy that trail? Did it matter how old it was, what it was made of, or if it had a prior purpose?

This sport, regardless of it's specific origin, was created out of a desire to have fun. Ironically, fundamentalists don't usually focus on fun, and prefer to label things right or wrong. As I write this someone is probably having a grand old time with a mountain bike in Nebraska


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

froggy97 said:


> Sorry CK, there are more names to list I cut the list of pioneers short, no offence
> 
> 6bobby9. Saying that anything is born in a locale is over-the-top, mea culpa. Are we going to now have a tangential debate about equestrian trails and bikes. Did you enjoy that trail? Did it matter how old it was, what it was made of, or if it had a prior purpose?
> 
> This sport, regardless of it's specific origin, was created out of a desire to have fun. Ironically, fundamentalists don't usually focus on fun, and prefer to label things right or wrong. *As I write this someone is probably having a grand old time with a mountain bike in Nebraska*


Or even, maybe ... On another planet somewhere in space... :idea:


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

highdelll said:


> I took the brake off my fork - now I have a Suicide Bomber!


Please also take the rear brake off your bike....then shuttle to the top of the mtn....point your bike downhill at the head of the trail....mount your cycle...put on a blindfold...and go!
:idea:


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## davidarnott (Feb 28, 2007)

*sorry*

been out in the "bushes" for a while, that's the road that drops into Hey Joe Canyon, the green river, northwest of Moab, it's cut out of solid red rock and if you sneeze it's a thousand feet straight down, I think it's officially called spring canyon road, the road that drops into Mineral Canyon, white rim trail, is also awesome



6bobby9 said:


> Nice. Where is that?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

ambassadorhawg said:


> Please also take the rear brake off your bike....then shuttle to the top of the mtn....point your bike downhill at the head of the trail....mount your cycle...put on a blindfold...and go!
> :idea:


AH HA!!

Little do you know that I have a mini methane-powered engine hidden throughout my frame. The intake port runs directly up the seatpost to the saddle-scoop.
If I need to slow down, I blow my ass-trumpet and flip-on the jake-brake!

"BBBBRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BRAAAP!! BRAAAP!!"


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## davidarnott (Feb 28, 2007)

*Forststrassen!*

That's a word I want to remember. I'm a Forststrassencyclist! Yer all so ripped because you don't drive 10,000 pound diesel pickup trucks to McDonald's for a "meal" of genetically modified wheat, completely toxic "meat" that is loaded with pesticides, herbicides, chemical fertilizers, antibiotics, plastics, other cows, cow poop, etc etc etc, and a nice plastic sixty four ounce super tanker of mercury laced high fructose corn syrup to wash it all down. I mean. Freedom Isn't Free.



simian23 said:


> It's an American thing. 99.999% of mountain bikers in Europe (central Europe from my experience anyway) ride fireroads (Forststrassen) almost exclusively. I'm the weird American riding all the hiking trails.
> 
> To be fair, even the fattest oldest slowest Euro rider will crush the average American rider on any uphill, and the .001% that do ride the singletrack can REALLY ride it...and will ride uphills like a roadie. But even that is done weirdly - mostly they fixate on trialsy sort of downhill singletrack.
> 
> So it depends on where you ride. Personally, I don't mind riding fireroads uphill, but they feel like wasted fun going downhill, unless I'm racing.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

^^ meh, not the kinda 'boobs' I wanted to see from your post Dave 

(though, you got a Hi-Rez version of that? - I dig the pic)


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

froggy97 said:


> Sorry CK, there are more names to list I cut the list of pioneers short, no offence
> 
> 6bobby9. Saying that anything is born in a locale is over-the-top, mea culpa. Are we going to now have a tangential debate about equestrian trails and bikes. Did you enjoy that trail? Did it matter how old it was, what it was made of, or if it had a prior purpose?
> 
> This sport, regardless of it's specific origin, was created out of a desire to have fun. Ironically, fundamentalists don't usually focus on fun, and prefer to label things right or wrong. As I write this someone is probably having a grand old time with a mountain bike in Nebraska


You've missed everything I've wrote. Go read it before replying to one of my posts so u dont look like an ass..

Anyways, White Mesa (some call it Little Yellowstone) is a Mountain bike specific trail. Horses are not allowed. Other than sight seeing there is no prior use of the trail. It circles a large canyon and is very similar to yellowstone at the far end with springs and such. Shear cliffs encompass 80% of the 12 miles. I'll post some pics in the next few days.

http://www.blm.gov/nm/st/en/prog/recreation/rio_puerco/white_mesa_bike_trails.html


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> ..
> Anyways, White Mesa (some call it Little Yellowstone) is a Mountain bike specific trail. Horses are not allowed. Other than sight seeing there is no prior use of the trail. It circles a large canyon and is very similar to yellowstone at the far end with springs and such. Shear cliffs encompass 80% of the 12 miles. I'll post some pics in the next few days.


I have heard it is on the chopping block for some new wilderness? Or maybe it was some other Mesa I have heard about..

Frigging wilderness - the whole Sierra Nevada is off limits.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Curmy said:


> I have heard it is on the chopping block for some new wilderness? Or maybe it was some other Mesa I have heard about..
> 
> Frigging wilderness - the whole Sierra Nevada is off limits.


I've been tryin to find (on and off) for a few years, a pic of my best bud and I about to head up to the Caribou Lakes in the Trinity Alps.
It was pic from ~1990? He's pointing at a 'no bikes allowed' sign - (It looked like "no white fixies") and I'm makin' an "oh dear!' face (kinda like 'Oh sh!t face' from home alone).

We ALWAYS took our bikes - hiked them a bunch - waited for bear - lamented that our packs weighed 80lbs and we were pushin an extra 25 - rode a bit - took pics - and saw almost no one!.

We CHUM'd the fukk out of it! Yeah it was kind of a pain going up, but, once we drained our packs of most weight and we were pointed DH, it was on!
What took two days to get in, was 4-5 hours out!
Anyone we ever did see throughout the years was always stoked to see us, tell a quick story and move on.
what a blast! - we never messed up nothing, packed out what we took in (-turds&pee).

The last time I checked, the Alps are doin great. Me and my buddy are plannin' a reunion chum. It's gonna be tits!

[my bad - I guess that's not the sierra nevada! -  ]

no matter, some day I plan on doing the PCH - rangers be damned


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

highdelll said:


> I've been tryin to find (on and off) for a few years, a pic of my best bud and I about to head up to the Caribou Lakes in the Trinity Alps.
> It was pic from ~1990? He's pointing at a 'no bikes allowed' sign - (It looked like "no white fixies") and I'm makin' an "oh dear!' face (kinda like 'Oh sh!t face' from home alone).
> 
> We ALWAYS took our bikes - hiked them a bunch - waited for bear - lamented that our packs weighed 80lbs and we were pushin an extra 25 - rode a bit - took pics - and saw almost no one!.
> ...


Basically all the best mountain ranges in California are taken away from cycling by this idiotic regulation. 
http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&latitude=37&longitude=-120&zoom=5

Trinity Alps. Main Sierra Nevada Range - from South Tahoe to the deserts - no crossing. Ventana wilderness. San Rafael.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

Curmy said:


> I have heard it is on the chopping block for some new wilderness? Or maybe it was some other Mesa I have heard about..
> 
> Frigging wilderness - the whole Sierra Nevada is off limits.


Must be some other Mesa. This one just got another small fenced parking lot in the last few weeks a mile away from the original.


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## davidarnott (Feb 28, 2007)

*Forststrassen!*

Here is a fire road I'd like to recommend to visitors to Moab in June July and August. La Salle Pass in the La Salle range, it's an easy drive up two mile road. And what a trip down!


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## ProfGumby (Feb 27, 2008)

DavidR1 said:



> Like others have said, depends on where you are. We have some fire roads here that require 4wd to navigate. Of course other is as smooth and flat as can be.
> 
> I just got a cross bike to ride on much of this fire road. It really is great for training and is often a very fun ride. Something different for sure. In the winter, it is often the only place to ride. I would much rather ride on fire roads all day then not ride at all (or ride on the road).
> 
> BTW: the forestry dept has built more fire roads then there are paved roads in the US. This constant creation of fire roads drives clubs like the Sierra club crazy! All while some forests are being killed one tree at a time on the east coast from diseases that can be treated.


That's because the Sierra club is a pack of knee jerk reactionary people who base nothing on science and have an axe to grind. It is the evil man destroying our pristine forests not fire or diseases. And the mass and main of their population are people who are emotionally moved do do something good to protect the poor environment. You will never get sane decisions out of a group such as that.


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## dm1333 (Jun 27, 2010)

> The depth of his ignorance is astounding.
> 
> Repack is not on Tam nor is it a gravel road.
> 
> But what can you expect from a 'bent freak whose ass is so tender that he needs to lay on his back in order to ride a bike...


sputnick,

While you were posting crap like this I was actually out riding my MTB. You know, one of those upright, sort of diamond frame thingies with the wedgie seat. Considering the fact that well over half of my mileage gets logged on an MTB it can't be a sore ass that made me start riding bents. Hopefully one day I'll be cool enough to get your approval, but until then I'll just keep riding gravel, dirt, logging and all other types of non paved roads. On all kind of bikes. I've even ridden my road bike on some of the better logging roads around here.

What I ought to do is start a seperate thread for 'bent riders who like to ride on gravel roads. That will send some of the people on this thread into a meltdown.


----------



## sputnik (Apr 11, 2010)

dm1333 said:


> sputnick,
> 
> While you were posting crap like this I was actually out riding my MTB.


Sweet! So you rode for the 15 seconds it took me to post?

I've been riding a bunch over the days that it took you to respond. Riding a mountain bike. On fire roads and on single track. What type of feeble point were you trying to make?



dm1333 said:


> You know, one of those upright, sort of diamond frame thingies with the wedgie seat. Considering the fact that well over half of my mileage gets logged on an MTB it can't be a sore ass that made me start riding bents. Hopefully one day I'll be cool enough to get your approval, but until then I'll just keep riding gravel, dirt, logging and all other types of non paved roads. On all kind of bikes. I've even ridden my road bike on some of the better logging roads around here.


Your extreme insecurity that stems from your 'bent love is duly noted.



dm1333 said:


> What I ought to do is start a seperate thread for 'bent riders who like to ride on gravel roads. That will send some of the people on this thread into a meltdown.


You're confusing a "meltdown" with people laughing.

At you.


----------



## zxtwou2 (Jul 16, 2010)

6bobby9 said:


> Sorry for the delay. It was time to ride. Where I'm from, people have been riding in the mountains since WWII. Notoriety and patents just dont mean a whole lot when it come years after its already something thats already been in existence. Theres no one person or group who can claim to be the "inventor" - literally. My father and grandfather had a hand in some of the trails here in New Mexico. My great-grandfather owned much of the land at the time. Its not recorded in history books or patents but the trails are there and have been there for 60-70 years and most dont know how they got there. But they were there decades before History records the dawn of the mountain bike age in the 70's.
> 
> Dude, do you realize you have almost 8000 posts in 2 years? You should spend more time riding than arguing on the interwebz.


man, i've been out of the sport for too long, but i had no idea that mountain bikers had developed elitists. IMHO, a mountain bike is used for mountain biking. trail riding on a mountain bike = mountain biking to me. we can't all be hardcore, or fortunate enough to live near mountains, either. when i used to mountain bike, it was a friendly sport, maybe a little competitive, but by no means did anyone think their brand of doing it was any better than the other.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

I have a riding companion who is ever so solicitous about how and what I ride. He gives me advice on how to set up my bike, and where I should ride it, and I usually ignore what he says unless I already agree with it. Yesterday during our ride I had to interrupt his non-stop stream of advice by pointing out that I rode a bike once and I had a pretty good idea how to do it.

I often wonder why he cares so much about my experience, since I do not care how he sets up his bike or where HE rides it. I see a lot of that here. Why would anyone care what floats another's boat?

I'm sure the experience depends on where you live and what is available to ride on. Big wave surfers who live in Hawaii might look down on surfers who have to make do with 5-foot waves, but you can only ride what nature brings you. 

There are boring fire roads, and there are fire roads that are not boring, but you can't call someone and have an exciting one delivered from Colorado to Nebraska. No one claims that the Kamikaze on Mammoth is boring.

Yesterday I hit Repack, my namesake road. The approach is fire road, but much of it might as well be singletrack because the useful line up the steep approaches is a foot wide and the road is all watermelon sized rocks that do not qualify as "gravel." I "cleaned" one of the approach climbs, but not the other, because they are challenging for anyone. Maybe one rider in ten cleans the tough one. On a "fire road."

Riding in shorts on the XC bike, with no armor, I don't really attack Repack, but I got a little sideways a few times on the off-camber and I managed to scare myself. I can only assume that people who do not think fire roads are fun have never hit that one.


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## dm1333 (Jun 27, 2010)

> Your extreme insecurity that stems from your 'bent love is duly noted.


And what exactly is it that makes you write any of the stuff you have written in this thread?


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## Wild Wassa (Jun 4, 2009)

ep-gnar said:


> What is a fire road anyway? ...


Perhaps something that looks like these two tracks?

Redgrounds Fire Trail with smoke ... the Northern Budawang Ranges.










... at sunrise the following morning I found the reason for the smoke. Burnt ground and lingering smoke on the Alum Mountain Fire Trail, the ash was still fragile. The edge of a dismal swamp, the Northern Budawang Ranges. Budawang Wilderness.










I used to be a volunteer rural fire fighter. There was a saying about fire trails, "It is not a fire trail if you can't turn the appliance around ... it is a death trap."

We used to make our own fire trails in the paddocks when putting out grass fires.










In Australia, many of the fire trails in the National Parks, in State Forests and on other Crown Lands were once (or still are) the unformed roads of the Travelling Stock Route network.

The only thing wrong with some of the fire trails in National Parks (but particularly in the Kanangra-Boyd Wilderness) is, bikes can be denied access and National Parks pollutes the only access to a wilderness or kills the spirit of entering a wilderness with their overly paranoid signs. Next three photographs, are in the Kanangra-Boyd Wilderness, in the Southern Blue Mountains.



















Honestly, only 60 kilometres of dirt (each way) and there is a sign like that? .. on one of the best and smoothest tracks in this country. As bike riders, imagine if we ever had to fix a puncture while alone, forgot the tonic water for our gins during our midday mechanical or were late for our post-ride stress debriefings ... in the presence of National Parks.

The main thing wrong with fire trails, is that overly-paranoid and patronising public servants, who obviously care more about our lives than we do, impact on my overall enjoyment of visiting *their* dumbed-down wild places ... I've almost forgotten what it is like to live in a world where I'm not expected to be a stupid person.

The "4* CREEK CROSSINGS*" by the way, were all 2-3 metre long concrete fords, with 1" deep water on only one of the fords. I must admit, I did feel cheated.

I rode into the wilderness to confront the wild animals and evil mother nature and her tempestuous elements head-on ... and all I saw were 23 lame-arsed warning signs that I banged my head on. When I finally got to Scott's Main Range Fire Trail after travelling over 60 kilometres to reach my intended goal ... all I saw was *NO BIKES AREA UNDER SURVEILLANCE Penalty $11,000* and surprisingly, I didn't have that much cash on me, nor was I looking in my usual broadcast quality best. So I turned the bike around and headed back.

Kanangra-Boyd's fire trails were a great deal of fun in the bush once ... before this wilderness became the over signposted 'Greater Blue Mountains UNESCO World Heritage Biosphere Park or Region' ...or whatever.

Just recently National Parks has also closed Limburner's Fire Trail to bikes. This was part of the Bicentennial National Trail joining the Range Fire Trail to the campsite on Murruin Creek.

Fire trails can be fun ... but are a threatened and endangered species in Kanangra-Boyd and check out the MTB proof gates!










Warren.


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## OSM (Jan 22, 2009)

Fire road up, single track down.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

You make some excellent points Warren (besides the great pics!). I'm sort of amazed that you find this sort of over-regulation and paranoia in Australia—we here in the US just assume that Oz is the Land of All Things Wild and Unregulated, LOL...but clearly that's not the case. If they're that paranoid about things down there, the world truly is coming to an end!

Scott


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

I'm glad the outdoors is not that regulated here in Northern Europe.

Sure, there's some Protected areas where you are required to stay on existing tracks and may even be restricted to going by foot. But that is a really minor part of all the land.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks for the tour Wild Wassa!


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## wrongway (Jul 26, 2005)

*old skool rocks*

If fire roads are boring, you're not going fast enough:






55+ mph two-wheel drift on the first corner, 2" travel, V-brakes. The biggest rush you've ever had.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

wrongway said:


> If fire roads are boring, you're not going fast enough:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can do just under 30 MPH on my local, steep fireroads. Is that fast enough?

How fast can you gon on your fastest ST????


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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

Nothing.


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## BeaverTail (Aug 12, 2009)

I mainly ride in NYC, But when I can I get up to Sprain Ridge in Greenberg NY. The fire roads there are some of the roughest terrain I have ever seen. They are largely abandoned and eroded. It is like riding on Martian terrain and it is a ****ing blast. You get thrown around like nothing else. I have even see rocks so sharp they would slice your entire tire. 


I look for fire roads as well as other abandoned trails and path, they tend to be far more fun.


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## Mighty Matt (Apr 22, 2009)

what about logging roads?


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## mythosman (Aug 19, 2010)

The yawning is probably what's wrong with fire roads. 

'Course everyone rides a bike for their own reason, and if it's fun for you, then go for it! :thumbsup: 

Seems like fire roads are mostly used by those biking for the workout aspect of it, as opposed to the thrill junkies. I myself am an adrenaline junkie, so the whole spandex thing ain't for me.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

mythosman said:


> Seems like fire roads are mostly used by those biking for the workout aspect of it, as opposed to the thrill junkies. I myself am an adrenaline junkie, so the whole spandex thing ain't for me.


... besides working out and thrill seeking there are such things as recreation, sightseeing, spending time with friends and your family and kids, travel and touring, various types of racing - such as adventure racing (try navigating fireroads at night, after a full day of running, kayaking and such. I guarantee you will get your fix..)


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

I like to ride bikes. Uphill, downhill, on wide trails, on narrow trails, of buff, on technical, on pavement, to work, to the store. 

Riding a bike is never boring. There is always something to look at, sensations to feel, moments to be in. That so many people seem to need constant high level stimuli to not be "bored" is IMO quite sad.


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## Copes_X3 (Oct 17, 2010)

Mountain biking is all about diversity. Diversity in terrain, surfaces, locations, elevations, styles, disciplines etc.
To focus on one element is to deprive yourself of all the fun the others offer.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Sometimes there are rules about such things, and it's wise to follow them.


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## dm1333 (Jun 27, 2010)

> I like to ride bikes. Uphill, downhill, on wide trails, on narrow trails, of buff, on technical, on pavement, to work, to the store.
> 
> Riding a bike is never boring. There is always something to look at, sensations to feel, moments to be in. That so many people seem to need constant high level stimuli to not be "bored" is IMO quite sad.


:thumbsup:


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## MrEconomics (Aug 23, 2004)

As a racer, fire roads are great for training and a nice break from road riding. Some of the fire roads have VERY steep hills that work great for hill sprints, etc. Could I ride fire hills all day? No. But by no means would I degrade somebody who wants too. I'm for people doing what makes them happy. Having any other attitude is rather immature.


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## mythosman (Aug 19, 2010)

Curmy said:


> ... besides working out and thrill seeking there are such things as recreation, sightseeing, spending time with friends and your family and kids, travel and touring, various types of racing - such as adventure racing (try navigating fireroads at night, after a full day of running, kayaking and such. I guarantee you will get your fix..)


For sure. And there are definitely some really fun fire roads around.. with some beautiful scenery that one couldn't experience in the woods on a single track... and some the best rides can involve a combination between the two. Around here though you have to worry about running into horses or joggers on many of them..

Bottom line is that this is one of those things that has NO absolutes and comes down to personal preference, in which no one is "right" or "wrong". It's good to experience all types of terrain accessible via bike, as many of the best hidden gems are in the most unexpected places.


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## gobriango (May 3, 2006)

Riding on fireroads isn't MTBing ... it is riding a bike on dirt.


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## The Understater (May 6, 2007)

Last weekend I got to re-live my early days of mountain biking. I took my wife and son to a small beach community in New Zealand's Coromandel where my parents used to have a beach house. I have been there maybe once in the last ten years, but I used to spend a great deal of time there in my late teens, and a great deal of that time was spent up in the forest on my bike with my father and brothers. We found some truly great single-track hidden there in those days, but the bulk of our riding was done on what we called Fire-roads. Don't bother me with any semantics... They were mostly gravel, with lots of rocks on some of the steeper and less used roads, and we called them Fire-roads. Many of our early rides involved struggling uphill for an hour or so and then bombing back down as fast as we could, doing sketchy high speed slides though the corners and spinning out our biggest gears. My first bike was a local brand with a 28-28T granny gear, fully rigid (because shocks didn't exist yet) with straight blade forks that had absolutely no give in them at all. Pinch flatting was always a huge risk. I once flatted the front mid-corner and by the time I had skidded to a halt I had put 10 holes in the tube. I later fitted that bike with a Scott Unishock before finally upgrading to a GT Karokoram with Mag 10s. My bother bought a Marin Pine Mountain and then Dad made us all jealous by buying a GT RTS-3 full suspension rig. We loved riding single-track but it lacked the high speed element of blasting Fire-roads, and we used to marvel at Mountain Bike Action magazines showing riders kitted for the Mammoth Kamikaze, with dinner plate sized chain rings on their bikes. MBA editor Richard Cunningham wrote an editorial set ten years into the future where he envisioned downhill racing progressing like downhill skiing, with riders doing 100mph plus in full aero-tuck on specially groomed ultra-steep downhill tracks.

And so last weekend I spent an hour climbing a once familiar gravel road up to a once familiar lookout. The distinctive scent of the Coromandel pine forest brought back a bunch of great memories, and the nostalgia definitely set in. Then I turned around to bomb the descent. My how things change. The suspension on my trail bike just ate the bumps that used to shake my arms so much I wondered how long I would be able to hold on. One finger on my disk brake levers was easily enough to wash off speed when approaching a tight corner, where once I would have used all four, hauling on those lifeless levers with all my strength hoping my glazed cantilever brake pads would do enough for me to make it round the bend. On a corner where I once skidded off the outside, slammed into a bank and somersaulted into the bushes.._( At the time I blamed the cornering characteristics of the Specialized Team Control tire I was using on the front, as I couldn't get the damn thing to turn in, but no-one ever believed me..)_... this time I railed it effortlessly without even a hint of a break in traction. At the bottom I wiped the wind induced tears from my eyes, pondered the stupidity of forgetting my sunglasses, and felt.... well, underwhelmed.

I realized that the equipment, the available terrain, and my riding has progressed so much, that the high speed gravel blasting I used to enjoy so much just doesn't do it for me anymore. The sights and smells of the forest were as good as they ever were, but I go riding for that feeling of flow and synergy that comes from riding a great trail, and locally at least, fire-road riding no longer offers that. 
We all ride for our own reasons, and no one person has any claim to define "true mountain biking". Some, like me, love the progression, and the shiny new trick stuff that keeps coming out, while others love the simplicity of a rigid single-speed or the isolation of the wilderness. I would never be so arrogant as to claim my way is better than another's, but I personally will go looking for my jollies on the most fun trails I can. Around here, that usually means single-track.

b.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

bshallard said:


> I realized that the equipment, the available terrain, and my riding has progressed so much, that the high speed gravel blasting I used to enjoy so much just doesn't do it for me anymore.


During yesterday's ride I picked a route that included some dirt roads and smooth dirt paths (aka. groomed ski trails, with lights and all). As long as it was going up and down, I found it a pleasant change of pace, compared with the twisty and rooty singletrack. One of the flat sections was not much fun, at least on the rigid singlespeed  Those paths are smooth enough that suspension makes no difference. Also just loose enough that I recommend knobby tires.

I like variety. Sometimes rocks and roots get monotonous too.


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## albatrosnh (Sep 22, 2007)

6bobby9 said:


> In general fire roads ARE boring. Now for beginners, okay, fine. Not a problem, you gotta start somewhere. But just cuz your tires are on dirt dont mean your mountain biking.
> 
> There is a difference between "Trail Riding" and "Mountain Biking". A HUGE difference.
> 
> Keep your two pennies.


Wasn't the Repack run on a fire road? Didn't that define Mountain Biking?


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

gobriango said:


> Riding on fireroads isn't MTBing ... it is riding a bike on dirt.


And if you don't surf the North Shore of Oahu or Mavericks, your surfboard is just a prop for your ego.

What a freaking elitist attitude. Do you take a good trail with you when you visit another part of the country?


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2010)

Repack Rider said:


> And if you don't surf the North Shore of Oahu or Mavericks, your surfboard is just a prop for your ego.
> 
> What a freaking elitist attitude. Do you take a good trail with you when you visit another part of the country?


well said. THANK YOU!!!!

try the tail end of the pine mountain loop north of mt tam and let's see what you have say about fire roads after that.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

mikeb said:


> well said. THANK YOU!!!!
> 
> try the tail end of the pine mountain loop north of mt tam and let's see what you have say about fire roads after that.


I think repack's point is a little different than that (as I understood it)..

fire road doesn't have to be hard to justify it as mountain biking, and the same goes for singletrack.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2010)

boomn said:


> I think repack's point is a little different than that (as I understood it)..
> 
> fire road doesn't have to be hard to justify it as mountain biking, and the same goes for singletrack.


you make good points as well.

mountain biking is what we make it...with what we have...


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I ride my bike up a fireroad that climbs 1500+ feet to access some gnarly descents on one of the mountains near my home. The fireroad itself is kind of tough going down, due to all the loose rocks, dirt, gravel, and ruts combined with the steepness and turns, but I prefer the other ways down since they better suit my style. One of the ways down, white trail on Mt Beacon, would require a lot of walking if you were to try to climb it to the top of the peak rather than take the fireroad.

Ride whatever suits your style.

Not sure why people say leave fireroads to hikers. As a hiker, I prefer to take routes I can't take my bike on, including climbing walls and around waterfalls. Combine both for some great outdoor experiences.


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## Wild Wassa (Jun 4, 2009)

The fire trails on Mount Stromlo's western slopes in the Australian Capital Territory were recently used as part of the course for the World Solo 24 Hour MTB Championships. I wonder if the doubters here would say to the competitors that they weren't mountain biking ... but merely riding on dirt?



















Mount Clear FT, the Great Dividing Range, ACT ...the next 26 kilometres are a slow and steady climb.




























The Lone Pine FT, below the Scabby Range, the GDR, NSW ... once you reach the saddle from Yaouk, its all downhill. You can see to Mounts Jagungal and Kosciuszko (about 120 kilometres away) and the Brindabella Ranges including Mounts Bimberi and Morgan, to the north. Then only a few kilometres further to Oldfield's Hut and a dozen further to Coolamine Homestead, some of the best huts of the high country you will ever stay in.




























The Range FT the Southern Blue Mountains New South Wales. From Mount Werong to Mount Chalker.



















Mount Fatigue FT, the Southern Blue Mountains, GDR, NSW. Mount Fatigue tires me out just looking at it. Best ridden starting from Mount Werong over Mount Chalker then downhill all the way to Wairborough Creek. A fire trail well worth the trouble.



















Caves Creek FT crossing the creek, Coolamon Mountains, in the GDR, NSW. Shot from a spur on Black Mountain. Descending to the 'Frost Plains of the North'.










Leura Gap FT, below Mount Murray, in the GDR, NSW. Riding this fire trail is like riding several kilometres of north shore structure.










Warren.

PS, If you enjoyed these fire trail photos and can cope with more but somewhat different? ... I did a tour into the Northern Budawang Ranges last Christmas, which I posted on 'crazyguy' ... https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=RrzKj&doc_id=7644&v=A9


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## jtyler05si (Sep 12, 2010)

Is riding a road bike through singletrack more of a MTB activity than riding a MTB on a fire road?


I'm just trying figure this out. One of these days I hope to be elite.


edit: Awesome pictures ^^


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## Wild Wassa (Jun 4, 2009)

jtyler05si, G'day and thank you.

Depending on your level of tolerance for putting up with a definite lack of comfort, defines everything one could call a road bike ride on dirt. It also depends on how often one likes or don't like washing-out if they don't have appropriate tyres consistent with their skills in the conditions and whether the road bike is sturdy enough for the conditions to complete a so called MTB ride. 

For 20 years I rode, pushed or carried and washed-out often a road bike around the fire trails, the mammalian trails, the sheep paths and the unformed roads of the Travelling Stock Routes of the Great Dividing Range. I didn't even know the term mountain biking existed then for what is off-road riding. Then 2 years ago I bought a hardtail and I still find it hard to believe I hadn't purchased a more appropriate bike for the mountains, several years earlier. Then in September last year, my hardtail was stolen (and the car vandalised to get at the bike) ... it didn't seem like it at the time, but the guy who stole my 4 month old 2009 XTC Alliance actually did me a big favour, apart from doing damage to the car.

There is nothing better than going boing-boing out in the bush, I think. It is easier on the feet, ankles, shins, shoulders and its easier on the arse. The specific MTB gearing of an MTB is easier on the knees and will prolong my riding life no doubt, by delaying the onset of Patellaritis, that can afflict riders with a slow cadence ... and the Anthem boing-boing tracks like she's on rails not dirt. 

To answer your question ... I wouldn't really know Mate but I do know that I trust the bike in the mountains more nowadays and I take on far more than I did when riding a rigid bike with no suspension except for the air that was in the tyres.

I was a spectator at the World Solo 24 Hr MTB Championships two weeks ago and the two things that I noticed more than any of the other amazing things that I saw, were the number of rigid riders who had obviously fallen within the first couple of laps, but the glaring thing was the number of single speed riders who were walking up the fire trails out on the western slopes of Stromlo at 5.30 pm, about 6 hours into the race. It was turning into a long night for the SS riders, even well before sunset.

The results of the winning dual suspension riders compared to riders of rigid and single speeds ... were laps apart (hours apart). I only glanced over the results, there may have been good results compared to the better performing boing-boings, but I didn't see any. SS and rigid riders no matter how courageous they are, certainly do make racing hard work for themselves.

Warren.


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

I have seen pictures of the fire roads you speak of and i agree. However , most of the fire roads here in ny/nj are not that kind of smooth,i've been out on fireroads by powerlines (jh comes to mind) and they were pretty rain washed with rock gardens, naturally occuring jumps, and in some areas big moab style rocks to descend . Lots of times they were like two parallel tech single tracks and you pick the one that seems more doable. The climbs seem to be more epic and if you tire out easily they might be a drag. Most of the time fireroads are access to single track or connectors between sections of single track


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## Copes_X3 (Oct 17, 2010)

Wild Wassa said:


>


Thanks you so much for these beautiful photos. They are unmistakably Australia. The Aussie bush is like nowhere else on earth. Sometimes I forget just how beautiful it is when I'm concerntrating on the trail. Wow.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Copes_X3 said:


> Thanks you so much for these beautiful photos. They are unmistakably Australia. The Aussie bush is like nowhere else on earth. Sometimes I forget just how beautiful it is when I'm concerntrating on the trail. Wow.


If not for some Eucalyptus leaves in the foreground, I could have confused it with some parts of California.

Not that it would make it any less beautiful.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Curmy said:


> If not for some Eucalyptus leaves in the foreground, I could have confused it with some parts of California.
> 
> Not that it would make it any less beautiful.


California has TONS of eucalytpus trees!


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