# The Future of the ebikes



## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

*Here is what I think the next generation mountain ebike will be, which will be common within 10 years to the point that most quality mountain ebikes and most people buying new ebikes will ride:*

eBike. All of these modern bikes will have an electric drivetrain. The bike makers will offer a smaller and smaller category of manual bikes.
Relatively light (between 32 and 40 lbs) with no range compromise. This will be achieved by advances in eBike motors, battery technology, and frame and component advances.
No derailleur: complete gearbox built into the electric drive as one unit with electronic, wireless shifting which may optionally be automatic. The automatic will have infinite gearing, changing 'gears' on the fly in relation to the torque that the rider is applying.
Not just torque, but heart rate will drive the pedal assist engine.
No visible cables. The brakes may be wireless or at a minimum, the cables will be routed starting inside the handlebars.
Regenerative braking, like on electric cars. So after burning some battery life on the climb, on your way down the mountain, you'll be charging the battery when applying your brakes. Regeneration may occur at certain speeds also without applying the brakes.
Sophisticated integration of software with the bike so riders can customize aspects of the electric drive, as well as the electronic brakes and even adjustments to frame geometry.
A more sealed off design when it comes to the entire drivetrain.
Adaptive suspension common: suspension that adapts to the terrain you're on, adjusting travel accordingly.
Sealed rear shocks where both front and rear shocks are digitally adjusted with software.
Integrated decent size screens built into the bikes with a host of information effectively operating like a smartphone in certain ways.
*Some unknowns:*

Frame geometry?
Wheel size?
Front and rear shock design?
Frame material? Expecting Carbon Fibre...


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## zvonler (Jun 22, 2010)

Regenerative braking will be quite a challenge with a mid-motor design. I had a hub motored bike that would do it but it was a very small effect, both in terms of charge and deceleration.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

The OP article should be more like the next 25 years. 
Technological upgrades as mentioned could be expensive so my feeling is small bike annually improvements to entice/force consumers to pay a rising amount for a bike of any kind.


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

rockymountaindude said:


> Relatively light (between 32 and 40 lbs) with no range compromise. This will be achieved by advances in eBike *engines*.....


let's hope not. all engines are motors, but all motors are not engines.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

We're definitely not going to have sub 40lb ebikes with gear boxes, regenerative braking and those other add-ons.


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## uintah (Apr 21, 2020)

26 inch wheels


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Right now I would bet against anyone's prediction of the future, and on balance come out way ahead.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

I've been mountain biking since 1990, from Vancouver, BC. I found this forum some time back because I was looking for information about a mountain bike I had in highschool in the 90s made by Tech, which I posted in a thread here months ago.

I own a 2021 Rocky Mountain Altitude C50 and a Rocky Mountain Altitude PowerPlay (eBike) C90. I also have on order a 2022 Rocky Mountain Element C50. Each bike has a purpose. The Altitude C50 is for downhill/the bike park. The PowerPlay is for non-bike park riding (all around trail riding). And the Element will be for lighter trail riding and urban riding. If I'm not at the bike park, I take my PowerPlay everytime. I can dart up hills 2-3 times faster than when on a manual bike and I can ride for long periods of time through big mountains. By the end of the day, I'm exhausted. The PowerPlay makes effectively no frame geometry compromises and has 160 mm travel in the front, and 150 mm in the back. It's excellent going down the hill as well.

The responses to this thread so far are predictable. I find that there is a general bias toward eBikes in the mountain biking community and their saturation rate at this point is low. However, after riding the PowerPlay for a year regularly on Mt. Seymour, Mt. Fromme, Cypress, all around Squamish, and up throughout Whistler and Pemberton, I'm never going back to a manual bike for non bike park riding. This is because the electric drivetrain enables me to power up the mountain extremely quickly and then ride down with a fully capable bike. I still get a workout because I leave it in the lowest assist setting and I can climb sections of mountains that a manual bike could never climb where I'd be walking the bike. My heart rate gets elevated quite high in these sections.

Product Managers from some of the big bike makers are saying what I'm saying. They see that there will be some form of electric assist in most of the mountain bikes in the future. And I agree with Wade Simmons (2001 Red Bull champion) as he refers to his experience first riding the Rocky Mountain PowerPlay:

"I probably just had the most fun in the past 5 years of mountain biking in the last 2 seconds. My mind is just racing with the idea of what's possible. " - Wade Simmons"

Wade is currently riding a few different bikes, but one is a custom Rocky Mountain PowerPlay which he says he gets criticism from people about riding an "eBike" and he doesn't understand why. He loves it and rides the same difficult mountains as me.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

kapusta said:


> I don't see eBikes ever fully displacing real MTBs, at least not in the foreseeable future. I think they will continue to do what they are doing now: selling_ in addition to_ real MTBs. THIS is why the industry is pushing them so hard. They will likely eat into real MTB sales some, but the idea that all high end MTBs will be electric is absurd, IMO.
> 
> Also, is it me or is electronic shifting not taking off in the MTB world the way we were told it would? Seems to get a lot more buy-in on the Road side of things. I do think that what eShifting there is will continue along the lines the OP describes.
> 
> ...


Everyone I've talked to who's tried electronic shifting (myself included) really like it. I think price point is what's holding it back from getting more popular. Guys buying $3000 bikes don't want to spend another $1000 on a derailleur and shifter, and most of the stock bikes that have it are in the $8000+ range.

I could see it taking over one day, but someone is going to have to find a way to make it accessible for everyone.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Everyone I've talked to who's tried electronic shifting (myself included) really like it. I think price point is what's holding it back from getting more popular. Guys buying $3000 bikes don't want to spend another $1000 on a derailleur and shifter, and most of the stock bikes that have it are in the $8000+ range.
> 
> I could see it taking over one day, but someone is going to have to find a way to make it accessible for everyone.


That and the fact that it's hard to get anything these days. I wouldn't judge adoption of electric shifting when people struggle just to get a bike or components.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Karmatp said:


> Well that would be pathetic if all bikes came with motors, how lazy can america get. I'm 48 and ride single speed most of the time because I want to challenge myself and get a fun workout. I love my geared, full squish bike but it makes me soft, never mind riding a bike with a motor.
> 
> Maybe when I'm 60 I will get a ebike, but I truly hope I am in good enough shape to still ride a normal bike.


I am the same age. My goal is 65. I figure then, maybe, a little assist. I passed a couple of hikers yesterday on a climb (meaning I crawled by) and was happy when they said: "self powered, good job."


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

My prediction: stanchions will be bigger, more needless standards will be invented, not much meaningful will change, bike industry will bust hard


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Don't batteries only generally last a few hours though? Im not at all interested in ebikes so I'm just asking out of curiosity. I thought someone said a few hours was all you could reasonable expect out of the average ebike?


I keep my bike in Eco mode, the lowest assist setting. I've ridden for 3 hours and my battery was drained only about 35%, meaning I had 65% battery life left. I could have ridden for 9 or 10 hours before I'd have to worry about charging. My PowerPlay has a relatively large battery at ~650 Kwh rated at 120 km range, but in tough terrain with a lot of climbing it won't go that distance, but it's crazy efficient in Eco mode. I also have the Rocky Mountain Overtimepack. It's an extra external battery that clips onto the frame and gives you more juice if needed, although I've never needed it other than I've clipped it onto the bike when my bike has been on my bike rack and it immediately starts charging the internal battery. So you can drive over to another mountain and while you're driving your internal battery is charging. It's called "jerrycanning".

Check out the video on the Overtime pack:


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

I'm 54 and absolutely love my Intense Tazer Ebike! I ride mainly,at an ebike specific shuttle park in North Carolina. @ridekanuga I can get double and even triple the laps in than my peddle bike. If US Forest Service legalizes class 1 ebikes,I can see a shift in ebikes becoming more popular. Like OP says,I'm having more fun than the last several years of riding!


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## underblu (Aug 24, 2021)

One of the nice things living in a free society. Those that enjoy traditional mountain bikes can ride their bikes. Those that enjoy ebikes can ride their bikes.

A couple points of fact:

An ebike is a real mountain bike with a pedal assist motor. Any doubt on that watch a few YouTube videos and enlighten yourself.

ebikes are not for the lazy. What a load of bullcrap. It can be as physically challenging as the rider wants it to be based on terrain, gear selection and level of pedal assist. 

ebikes helps democratize MTB riding. Now less physically fit or physically gifted people along with older people and people who have sustained injuries can participate in the sport with less worry and potential for issue.

ebikes can help a rider gradually build their endurance which again provides wider access to those considering the sport. 

And seriously, for those riders that perpetuate this MTB vs eMTB snobbery BS. Do me a favor. If advances in technology that help make biking more accessible are so vile to you, get rid of that 29lb carbon 12 speed MTB and get a nice 40lb steel bike with a single gear. 

Afaic, this current supply shortage not withstanding, we are in a new golden age for bikes with a wide range of choices and options and that is something we should all be happy about. Pedal assist, multiple gears, dropper posts, electronic shifting are all positive advances that have helped open the door to new riders while providing existing riders with beneficial enhancements. Their is no downside just the man made us vs them noise from a few angry pseudo traditionalists.


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

I think you meant the *future of ebike*.

We will see motorized and non motorized both popular, like we do today.

With *non motorized bike*s, I assume we will just see the current trends continue. The exception is suspension that need a big upgrade. With core technology, the last 5 years solved decades long problems of the mountain bike, specifically geometry and drivetrain.

With motorized bikes many of the ideas hinge on using a gear box for ebikes, which is just a matter of time. The lightweight high efficiency chain based drivetrains that we have on bikes today are not relevant with a motor. Some would say not relevant even without a motor ?

One thing I don't think we would see is big digital displays. From the same reasons they are not common on off road motorcycles. Small compact displays, with better integration. Specialized is doing this already.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

I think it's useful to look at what things were ten years ago and compare. Nearly everything we think of as mainstream now was niche or gimmick or too expensive then, not invented since... or a natural follow-up, like electronic shifting becoming wireless shifting.

I think you could see more vertical integration instead of having basically a frame-and-build industry and a component industry that are not very closely related.

On e-bikes, I could totally see a lot of automotive and motorcycle stuff... Assisted braking, ABS, traction control, active suspension. 2WD is going to make a showing after ABS and traction control. I don't think you are going to see all the customization imagined by the OP. Not that it's impossible, more that the companies who make it like to lock that stuff down unless it's harmless _and_ fashionable (see Apple or Tesla).

You are absolutely _not_ going to see regenerative braking replace friction brakes. It's just a power issue. A city bike gimmick at best, not for MTB. The motor is capable of <1hp and is going to make less as a generator, and it's just not nearly enough. A motor as powerful as a brake is going to be bonkers, and you need two of them. That's why AWD Teslas have so much useless power. But on a bike they're just too big to lug around. For a MTB where you are _counting _on freewheeling downhill unless you _need_ to brake, you are not going to be recovering the uphill energy, and on the level it's all getting eaten by wind drag and not ever coming back.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's an easy win for full suspension - hard lines for hydraulic brakes instead of making it backward compatible with cables.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

While the OP has his opinions, I think that it's going to be longer than the 10 year cycle he thinks.

I also am not sure anything is going to be a real improvement for what the industry drives vs what people want/need.

E-bikes and electronic shifting are still in the early stages. People are going to want these expensive parts to last more than a few years.

I still prefer riding a metal bike as opposed to plastic. I don't like the feel of carbon rides, and I'm pretty old school in that way. 

I have electronic shifting, but it's not because of any reason other than my right wrist has limited mobility and this is the only way I can really ride without running single speed, and I don't ride hardtails anymore. If I still rode a hardtail, running a singlespeed definitely would be intriguing.

I think electronic shifting and gearboxes aren't necessarily inclusive. As they get more refined, I'd expect to see more electronic shifting than gearboxes, or the other way around. I'm not sure we'll see electronic gearboxes anytime in the next 10 years--both are still being shaken out. Warranties, repairs, replacements, how much they're liked, etc. Mountain bikers (both e- and pedal) are fickle.

I think we'll still be not settled on a wheel size (not everyone is a fan of wagon wheels), or geometry. I think we'll still see yet another dumb standard with hubs.

We might have electronic ways to have dropper posts too, other than the $800 Reverb that I don't see the point of throwing money at (my left wrist works fine, so I don't need it like I do the shifting).

Mullets will still be a thing for some people, but not everyone.

We will have at least 3-4 new suspension designs.

Companies will still find a way to push old tech as something new.

I think we'll see more separation on e-MTBs and MTBs, as we are heading that way anyway--specific parts for e-MTBs vs MTBs.. Cost is going to be a big thing. Someone said that e-MTB make the sport more inclusive--I don't see how since they start at $4k AFAIK, and an MTB you can get for less than half that. Also, there are luddites like me who have zero interest in an e-MTB and are more interested in just pedaling. It's enough to check the battery on the derailleur every so often, that I don't want to troubleshoot the pedal assist either.

I still expect air shocks to suck, and people still argue over wheel size and carbon vs AL.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> You shut your dirty mouth.


Haha. I do think we will see some sort of front shifting again just not anything like a front mech. I can see a hammershmidt 2.0 type thing with a compact cassette to give us similar 11/12 speed range in a much more compact system. It will use a small front ring to provide tons of clearance to go with even lower BB's that reflect the machine built sanitized trails we ride. Shifting will be electronic via one shifter. I don't say this because it's what I would like to see. I'm a fan of mechanical analog shifting but I would be very surprised if E shifting doesn't take over the high end market in 10 years. E droppers will take over too with programable auto drop/rise for certain gears if you so choose.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Random prediction for 10 years from now: dropper posts go away and Thudbusters get super popular again.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

Darth Lefty said:


> I think it's useful to look at what things were ten years ago and compare. Nearly everything we think of as mainstream now was niche or gimmick or too expensive then, not invented since... or a natural follow-up, like electronic shifting becoming wireless shifting.
> 
> I think you could see more vertical integration instead of having basically a frame-and-build industry and a component industry that are not very closely related.
> 
> ...


We can agree to disagree on the regenerative breaking because other solutions are possible in application to eBikes. However, I like your comment about 2WD, that makes sense, and could be a game changer where there is a motor driving each wheel independently and traction control becomes possible.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

Harold said:


> ebikes have a motor. period. older access rules were extremely clear on this. and since an ebike is driven at least partially by a motor, it was prohibited from nonmotorized trails. some places have been quicker than others to change access rules to group ebikes with nonmotorized bicycles. I think some places will continue to prohibit ebikes. And the biggest reason for that is the faster climbing speed of ebikes. Faster speeds bring about increases in user conflicts. Speed differentials are a real thing. I've encountered more than one ebiker who fails to dial it back when encountering other trail users. That's the real problem.
> 
> In places that are more specifically oriented towards bikes (rather than multi-use traffic) or places that see very little traffic at all, it's not such a big deal. But places that are really busy with a wide variety of trail users, it's a big problem.
> 
> ...


You're generalizing your location it seems to everywhere else. Here, in Vancouver, Squamish, Whistler, etc., it doesn't matter if you have an eBike or not. Trails are open to both. Whistler bike park also allows eBikes. I've had mine at the park a few times. I'm not saying your situation isn't real, but we can't generalize to the rest of the world that eBikes won't be allowed on trails just from your situation.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

rockymountaindude said:


> You're generalizing your location it seems to everywhere else. Here, in Vancouver, Squamish, Whistler, etc., it doesn't matter if you have an eBike or not. Trails are open to both. Whistler bike park also allows eBikes. I've had mine at the park a few times. I'm not saying your situation isn't real, but we can't generalize to the rest of the world that eBikes won't be allowed on trails just from your situation.


I would say you're ignorant of what it's like in many parts of USA. I've watched hostility between user groups grow over the years. E bikes are exacerbating tensions in many areas. I'm really blown away with how E bikers don't see how motors change the game. You're living in a bubble. You need to view things through the lens of other user groups too.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

chazpat said:


> I suspect a lot of ebikers, especially ones that don't come from riding a mountain bike, would choose a non-pedal, throttle only ebike if they could, or even a gas bike but those are allowed on a lot fewer trails so they compromise that they will do some pedaling to gain trail access. This is one reason I think ebikes are bad for the sport of mtb. Yes, I know that at this time, a lot of ebikers do come from an mtb background and many still ride mtb, but as time goes by, there will only be more and more ebikers who never ride an actual mountain bike. You can argue that that just means the sport changes from a non-motorized sport to a motorized sport, maybe it becomes traditional mountain biking and mountain biking in that case. But adding a motor fundamentally changes the sport, no matter what some people want to think. Ebikes might even push to do away with the pedal requirement and allow access to throttle only bikes. You know, democratize the sport, right?
> 
> And weight wise, consider that a emtb uses a lot of the same parts as a mtb and are moving toward a lot of their own parts that will be heavier. Plus the motor, electronics and battery. They'll get lighter but they won't be anywhere near 35lbs for an off the shelf full suspension ebike. Mountain bikes today are heavier than they were 10, even 20 years ago.


I don't think manual bikes will go away, I just predict that eBikes will dominate new offerings and purchases in 10 years. Nobody is saying we're creating motorbikes or want to. eBikes are very unique as it works well for bikes since it enables the same bike design and manual pedal, just with pedal assist as needed.

And your comment about weight is totally incorrect. The future is here, today. Trek has one of the lightest eMountain bikes at just under 35 lbs! And you can easily remove the battery and motor out and use it as a manual bike at just 27.5 lbs. This kind of innovation is another example of how, in 10 years, there are already markers today that indicate a dominant eBike future. That future is one where saturation is high and price is reasonable.









Trek's new e-bike is the 'lightest full-suspension electric mountain bike' in the world


Trek recently unveiled its new 2021 E-Caliber line of electric mountain bikes. The highest-end version of the pricey e-bike line...




electrek.co


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

I don't mind ebikes per se. If people want to be lazy, too bad for them. For the few who really need the help, bless 'em. eBikers who pass unannounced or exhibit other dick behavior piss me off, just as it would with any rider. For dick ebikers I wish I had the super power to discharge their batteries at a glance, forcing them to peddle their 80 pound "bike" home.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

CRM6 said:


> I think you are missing the pulse of mountain biking.... I live in the East Coast mountain biking mecca and Ive seen more issues with bikers facing angry horse people than hostility towards ebikes&#8230;.. Lots of kids riding ebikes and or parents on ebikes to keep up with or tow their kids to the top. Time to face facts: Ebikes are here to stay and will grow with the sport.


I learned to ride in the pisgah which I"m assuming is your east coast mecca. I've lived in many "meccas" because I'm old and have structured my life around riding. I've seen tensions from east coast to west coast grow over the decades. Mostly just because traffic has increased dramatically, and we ride much faster then we used to. We also braid out trails like we never used to. Of course other user groups get sick of us. Motors just exacerbate this situation. I most certainly don't have my finger on the pulse as you say, but I have eyes.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

rockymountaindude said:


> You're generalizing your location it seems to everywhere else. Here, in Vancouver, Squamish, Whistler, etc., it doesn't matter if you have an eBike or not. Trails are open to both. Whistler bike park also allows eBikes. I've had mine at the park a few times. I'm not saying your situation isn't real, but we can't generalize to the rest of the world that eBikes won't be allowed on trails just from your situation.


Hardly. Nothing you said refutes what I said. You're just referring to places that were quicker to permit ebikes. Bike parks are among the first places to do it, and I'd argue that they're by far the most appropriate places for emtbs.

You sound like someone who's brand new to this. I've been around the mtb community for decades. Many others have been around longer and have seen the landscape change. I still very strongly remember when there were zero legal places to ride my mtb in dirt within probably 100miles of where I lived. I remember the work it took to get permission to ride, and the effort needed with trail etiquette.



rockymountaindude said:


> Your bit about cost is totally incorrect. Non eBike mountain bikes are extremely expensive, and there are many models that are MORE expensive than eBikes. Rocky Mountain full suspension PowerPlays start out around $5500 USD and for Carbon Fibre around $7200 USD. These are expensive but there are many manual bikes that cost more, even north of $10,000.
> 
> Spec for spec manual bikes will generally be cheaper today, but in 10 years with a lot more sales prices will improve.


What planet are you living on? Someone can walk into a bike shop and buy a respectable, trail-worthy hardtail for less than $1,000. You can walk into any department store and purchase a bike that you can ride on greenway paths and around your neighborhood for less than $100 (USD). No ebike is going to approach that for the capability. You'll never get a trail-worthy emtb for less than $1,000. You'll never get a cheap neighborhood ebike for less than $100.

Comparing the entry point for an emtb with the top end pro caliber race-worthy mountain bikes is not apples-to-apples, either. You're comparing completely different things. You forget, I have been around the mtb community for a couple of decades. I've also worked at a few retailers over the years. I'm not approaching this with blinders on the way you appear to be.



CRM6 said:


> I think you are missing the pulse of mountain biking.... I live in the East Coast mountain biking mecca and Ive seen more issues with bikers facing angry horse people than hostility towards ebikes&#8230;.. Lots of kids riding ebikes and or parents on ebikes to keep up with or tow their kids to the top. Time to face facts: Ebikes are here to stay and will grow with the sport.


I don't think he is missing the pulse of mountain biking. I think you're seeing a pretty limited part of it. I've had more problems with ebikers on the trails than I have with horses, and I have encountered orders of magnitude more horses than ebikers. I can't wait to see how ebikers and horses get along.  Assholes are everywhere, and THAT isn't going away. The increased speeds that ebikes permit make interactions with assholes worse. They allow people who were already assholes to be even bigger assholes than they were before. People who aren't assholes aren't (probably) going to automatically become one if they ride an ebike, of course. That's not what I'm saying.

LOL @ parents on ebikes to try to keep up with fast kids. I've seen how that one goes. Not uncommon for the faster speeds the ebike permits to let parents get in over their heads and injure themselves. I know parents who have stopped trying to keep up with their kids _because_ they went down hard on their ebike (lacking the skill to go that fast). Ebikes have their place, but that is NOT one of them.

I saw an e-cargo bike in town this morning with 2 small kids on the back. The emotor wasn't being used to allow the rider to go "faster" or to "get more runs in" but rather to enable mom to go for a casual bike ride while towing the kids. That's the real growth area for ebikes. People who just want to burn through the climb faster so they can get more downhill runs in a given amount of time are going to keep emtbs relegated to smaller pieces of land because that activity style is aligning them more closely with motos than with bicycles.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

slimat99 said:


> I learned to ride in the pisgah which I"m assuming is your east coast mecca. I've lived in many "meccas" because I'm old and have structured my life around riding. I've seen tensions from east coast to west coast grow over the decades. Mostly just because traffic has increased dramatically, and we ride much faster then we used to. We also braid out trails like we never used to. Of course other user groups get sick of us. Motors just exacerbate this situation. I most certainly don't have my finger on the pulse as you say, but I have eyes.


Just because you have eyes,doesnt mean you can see.... The community here in Pisgah district isn't anything that you are claiming.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

LOL @ parents on ebikes to try to keep up with fast kids. I've seen how that one goes. Not uncommon for the faster speeds the ebike permits to let parents get in over their heads and injure themselves. I know parents who have stopped trying to keep up with their kids _because_ they went down hard on their ebike (lacking the skill to go that fast). Ebikes have their place, but that is NOT one of them.

The parents are riding an ebike shuttle park and Ive seen many families enjoy the mix of ebikes and manual bikes..... Any by the way,the mother's and the father's are shredding!


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

Harold said:


> Hardly. Nothing you said refutes what I said. You're just referring to places that were quicker to permit ebikes. Bike parks are among the first places to do it, and I'd argue that they're by far the most appropriate places for emtbs.
> 
> You sound like someone who's brand new to this. I've been around the mtb community for decades. Many others have been around longer and have seen the landscape change. I still very strongly remember when there were zero legal places to ride my mtb in dirt within probably 100miles of where I lived. I remember the work it took to get permission to ride, and the effort needed with trail etiquette.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your opinion but all you're doing is focusing on where you live and you aren't saying much otherwise. You and I cannot take our local experience and generalize to 170 plus countries. It's pointless. And I'm not sure why you keep referring to how much experience you have mountain biking. I'm from Vancouver, BC and have been riding mountain bikes since 1990. But what is the point in mentioning that? Not much, really.

eMountain bike cost. Obviously my focus on the prediction isn't entry level mountain bikes like a $1000 mountain bike, it's around good, full suspension mountain bikes. In Rocky Mountain's case, their eBikes are about 30% more expensive then their manual counterparts. It's more expensive, but not crazy. As discussed, prices will improve with economies of scale, and manual offerings will still be around.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

rockymountaindude said:


> I appreciate your opinion but all you're doing is focusing on where you live and you aren't saying much otherwise. You and I cannot take our local experience and generalize to 170 plus countries. It's pointless. And I'm not sure why you keep referring to how much experience you have mountain biking. I'm from Vancouver, BC and have been riding mountain bikes since 1990. But what is the point in mentioning that? Not much, really.
> 
> I've read more than one article about the issues you guys have in Vancouver. Booby trapped trails, angry lunatic hikers, destroyed trails..... And you guys have a much better bike culture than we have in USA. Just take a second to think about what motors on bikes means to all the non bike people in your area. The world is bigger than you and your interests.


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

10 years in the future: eBike debate still rages, MTBR still won’t allow political posts, bikes with 36” front tires and a 27.5” fat back tire are the new vogue


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Just because you have 10 grand burning a hole in your pocket doesn't mean you automatically get a seat at the table. You may be used to thinking that way, but it doesn't make it right.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I'm not sure you understand what a democracy is. But, I guess that's one of the nice things about living in a free country: you don't have to understand the basic principles of anything.


I'm not sure he understands how sports work either. "Let's lower the hoop so that everyone can make a basket" goes away once you reach a certain age.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Two wheel drive!

Light weight Pinion style gearboxes with electronic shifting. 

BFO will reduce a super environmentally friendly version of their H2O brake that you can top up mid ride when you need a toilet break.

Specialized will be up to the letter 'S' in their alphabetical list of companise to sue, and realize they're in a lot of trouble!


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Since this has become a mountain bike vs E bike thread, let me take the time to thank all the E bikers out there for cock blocking wilderness access. Appreciate that! Happy motoring!


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

I think we all need to stop thinking about ebikes in terms of bicycles, and start thinking about ebikes as a community. I personally wouldn't consider owning an ebike but they don't bother me in the slightest. What does bother me is the enormous amount of the ebike community I see ignoring signs and bulling their way around the trails, forcing people off the side of exposed trails so they can pass at obnoxious speeds on climbs.

I'm not saying there aren't plenty of respectable ebikers, I've passed many older fellas who ride like they would on a regular bike and follow all of the trail etiquette they're used to. On the flip side, I've seen plenty of ebikers act like twats. I've had people force me off the trail, ride my ass on climbs and seen them sitting and chatting right next to No Ebike signs.

At this point I look at most ebikers the same way I look at boomers out on the trail with their dogs unleashed. They think the outdoors belongs to them and no one else's experience matters.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

rockymountaindude said:


> I guess in your part of the world - one region and one country - out of 200 countries, that's your experience. Out here in Vancouver, North Vancouver, Squamish, Whistler, Mount Sumas etc., there really isn't a trail that bans eBikes. They're looked at as one and the same. Perhaps you should discuss your concerns with the government there and look at options for new trails on additional mountains as the sport grows and makes riding busier, etc.


What exactly would discussing my concerns with local government do? I don't think the local government can make a rule against people being douchebags. As far as Im concerned it's just something we will have to learn to live with.

I'm not opposed to ebikes using the same trails as me as long as the trail manager and land owner say it's cool, and they're not blowing out corners with their 60lb bikes. It's the attitude that annoys me.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> At this point I look at most ebikers the same way I look at boomers out on the trail with their dogs unleashed.


Show us on the doll where the boomers touched you.

Or should we add boomer to the buzzword thread?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

bikeranzin said:


> Show us on the doll where the boomers touched you.
> 
> Or should we add boomer to the buzzword thread?


If you've got a better way to describe people of a certain age other than using the official name for their generation, I'm all ears.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

It will be like a cartoon I once saw in the back of Dirt Rag in the mid 90's. Two older riders sitting on a park bench clowning two younger riders about the good ol days. Working for it, breaking a sweat ect. The two newer riders are looking at them like WTF. The last frame of the cartoon shows the younger riders ride away, their bikes attached to rails.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> What exactly would discussing my concerns with local government do? I don't think the local government can make a rule against people being douchebags. As far as Im concerned it's just something we will have to learn to live with.
> 
> I'm not opposed to ebikes using the same trails as me as long as the trail manager and land owner say it's cool, and they're not blowing out corners with their 60lb bikes. It's the attitude that annoys me.


Presumably government owns a lot of land and is responsible for trail management. If that's not the case there and it's private property, then take up your grievances with the property owner.

In Canada a lot of land is owned by the Crown (our Federal government) as well as provincial and local governments. Our municipalities are responsible for managing these lands and any trails on them. Regulations, etc. would be their responsibility and they would be the folks to lobby and bring grievances to.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

rockymountaindude said:


> Presumably government owns a lot of land and is responsible for trail management. If that's not the case there and it's private property, then take up your grievances with the property owner.
> 
> In Canada a lot of land is owned by the Crown (our Federal government) as well as provincial and local governments. Our municipalities are responsible for managing these lands and any trails on them. Regulations, etc. would be their responsibility and they would be the folks to lobby and bring grievances to.


I understand what you're saying, but how exactly do you think they're going to enforce the things I'm talking about? They put signs up that say No Ebikes and people ride right past them. They could put another sign next to that saying "don't ride other people's asses and force them off the trails on climbs" but they're going to pay just as much attention to that sign as they do the others.

This is why people advocate for having ebikes removed completely and actually enforced. I'm not sure I'd personally go that far, I just want people to not act like dickbags.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I understand what you're saying, but how exactly do you think they're going to enforce the things I'm talking about? They put signs up that say No Ebikes and people ride right past them. They could put another sign next to that saying "don't ride other people's asses and force them off the trails on climbs" but they're going to pay just as much attention to that sign as they do the others.
> 
> This is why people advocate for having ebikes removed completely and actually enforced. I'm not sure I'd personally go that far, I just want people to not act like dickbags.


It's called bylaw enforcement if it's local government and fines can be levied against people now and then for compliance. Otherwise, for private land, creative solutions can be discussed. For instance, while I don't know the federal and state laws in the US for context around this, but the private land owner may contract at common law with delegates who can levy fines against people using the trails in a prohibited way. Those people using the trail must agree to the posted trail rules. Also, there could be restricted (locked access) where each trail user has to sign up and agree to terms, etc. etc.


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> If you've got a better way to describe people of a certain age other than using the official name for their generation, I'm all ears.


In my experience the most common owners of dogs on trails seem to be women. Maybe you should direct your bigotry in their direction.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> In my experience the most common owners of dogs on trails seem to be women. Maybe you should direct your bigotry in their direction.


Bigotry, lol. Now calling boomers boomers is bigotry? If I call a millennial a millennial is that also bigotry?


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

rockymountaindude said:


> eBike. All of these modern bikes will have an electric drivetrain.
> No derailleur: complete gearbox built into the electric drive as one unit with electronic,
> Regenerative braking, like on electric cars. So after burning some battery life on the climb, on your way down the mountain, you'll be charging the battery when applying your brakes. Regeneration may occur at certain speeds also without applying the brakes.
> Sophisticated integration of software with the bike so riders can customize aspects of the electric drive, as well as the electronic brakes and even adjustments to frame geometry.
> ...


I agree you're exactly right-they will move *all* MTB drivetrain into a motor-gearbox drive unit that'll be in the bottom bracket area. For some reason, the industry is hellbent on pushing motorbikes and this is the obvious way to integrate the motor. Further, the presence of the motor will finally overcome the intractable problem of internal gearboxes--that they're not as efficient as chain drive on sprockets.

I disagree about regen braking tho. Too hard to do blended braking and there's not enough traction in the rear wheel to make it worthwhile on a downhill. Also, it would have to be shaft-drive to power the motor as a generator during braking (you can't push on a chain).


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## underblu (Aug 24, 2021)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Just because you have 10 grand burning a hole in your pocket doesn't mean you automatically get a seat at the table. You may be used to thinking that way, but it doesn't make it right.


lmfao. What? are you another internet tough guy with your little cadre of "locals", Reminds me of that scene from Point Break. Grow up.

Is that what irks you? that I have a nice new 10k bike. Are you jealous of people that have worked hard and made something with their life?. Btw, I have a whole lotta more to spend on this sport. I'm an MTB advertiser's dream

What gives me a seat at the table is the fact that I own a bike that I ride, I joined this forum, and as per the rules I have one voice to speak up with and voice my opinion. My seat at the table is as good and rightful as yours

If you don't like my opinion then oppose it with your own opinion. If you don't like my seat at the table then start your own safe space where you can censor whomever you'd like. The weak and the cowardly and those that lack well reasoned ideas always prefer cancel fascism and bullying over freedom and tolerance.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

underblu said:


> Btw, I have a whole lotta more to spend on this sport. I'm an MTB advertiser's dream


This.

This is the future of mountain biking: an aging, wealthy demographic, targeted by manufacturers who will produce ever more expensive, motor-focused, high tech bikes. With their money, this demographic will legislate fee-based access to public lands that they'll share exclusively with equestrians, and people riding Boston Dynamics hiking robots.

The future. Smell it coming.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Let's see...where were we 10 years ago?


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

I don’t think age and selfcenteredness have any correlation for what it’s worth


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## underblu (Aug 24, 2021)

D. Inoobinati said:


> This.
> 
> This is the future of mountain biking: an aging, wealthy demographic, targeted by manufacturers who will produce ever more expensive, motor-focused, high tech bikes. With their money, this demographic will legislate fee-based access to public lands that they'll share exclusively with equestrians, and people riding Boston Dynamics hiking robots.
> 
> The future. Smell it coming.


Aging? Every demographic is aging. That's what people do.
I would vehemently oppose fee based access to parks as that is anti-democratic. So speak for yourself. (Not to mention the fact there are already many parks with fees) 
The idea here is to get more people biking and hopefully opening more public lands to trail riding if it can be done in an ecologically sensitive manner,

See with democracy and capitalism, hard work, effort and innovation are virtues as is individual humanity and liberty. While not without it's flaws, It has marked the updward swing of mankind and fought off the brutal oppression of fascism and communism. There have been more equal "utopias" but they needed to build a wall to keep people in not out. There's still Venezuela and Cuba, maybe the "egalitarian" riding trails there would be more to you liking.

That's the other future. You can smell the sewer water, death and political prisons.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I read the first dozen or so posts in this thread.
That was enough to see where this thread was going.
After doing so, I suggest the thread title be changed to: "The future of the ebike."
You see, mountain bikes don't have motors.
To clarify for those not following along: mountain biking and ebiking are two disparate sports.
Anyone who doesn't grasp the fundamental difference between the mountain bike and the ebike might easily confuse yet another two-wheeled contraption into the mix: the dirt bike.
So let's either bring dirt bikes into this conversation or more appropriately, do one of the following:

Rename the thread as suggested above
Keep the discussion to the mountain bike as the thread title suggests. That is to say, the mountain bicycle. That's the two-wheeled thing that lacks any motor whatsoever.
Thank you.
=sParty


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## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Bigotry, lol. Now calling boomers boomers is bigotry? If I call a millennial a millennial is that also bigotry?


No, he's saying you are
lumping all persons of a certain age in with a small group you have seen with dogs.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> At this point I look at most ebikers the same way I look at boomers out on the trail with their dogs unleashed. They think the outdoors belongs to them and no one else's experience matters.





SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> In my experience the most common owners of dogs on trails seem to be women. Maybe you should direct your bigotry in their direction.





SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Bigotry, lol. Now calling boomers boomers is bigotry? If I call a millennial a millennial is that also bigotry?





downcountry said:


> No, SSS, he's saying you are, as usual,
> lumping all persons of a certain age in with a small group you have seen with dogs.


Gathered the relevant points, and fixed some wording to preserve the (likely to be mod deleted) point. This boomers-are-the-boogeyman schtick is completely ridiculous and banal.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

downcountry said:


> No dumbass, he's saying you are, as usual,
> lumping all persons of a certain age in with a small group you have seen with dogs.





bikeranzin said:


> Gathered the relevant points, and fixed some wording to preserve the (likely to be mod deleted) point. This boomers-are-the-boogeyman schtick is completely ridiculous and banal.


Christ you people are so dramatic. I never said people with their dogs off leash are the Boogeyman, I said they were an annoyance. I'm not sure what you want me to say when the vast majority of people I see on the trails with their dogs unleashed are of a certain age bracket.

Would it make your guys feelings feel better if I pointed out something annoying that my generation does?


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Christ you people are so dramatic. I never said people with their dogs off leash are the Boogeyman, I said they were an annoyance. I'm not sure what you want me to say when the vast majority of people I see on the trails with their dogs unleashed are of a certain age bracket.
> 
> Would it make your guys feelings feel better if I pointed out something annoying that my generation does?


Perhaps your worldview is too narrow. Where I live, all ages and genders appear to be walking their dogs, and it's probably 50/50 whether or not the dog is on leash.

Why did you choose to embed yourself among a generation of people that frustrate you enough to prattle on about them in thread after thread?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

bikeranzin said:


> Perhaps your worldview is too narrow. Where I live, all ages and genders appear to be walking their dogs, and it's probably 50/50 whether or not the dog is on leash.
> 
> Why did you choose to embed yourself among a generation of people that frustrate you enough to prattle on about them in thread after thread?


It's an observation, not a world view. When did I say that all boomers frustrate me? I was making an analogy to another subset of trail users that do slightly annoying things.

As far as my "prattling on", maybe you should go read my posts a little closer. I rarely mention boomers and if I do, it's usually just poking fun at older members here who I know can dish it out just as much as they take it.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Trophies for everyone!

Now let's move on.
=s


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Sparticus said:


> Trophies for everyone!
> 
> Now let's move on.
> =s


damn boomer


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## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

bikeranzin said:


> Gathered the relevant points, and fixed some wording to preserve the (likely to be mod deleted) point. This boomers-are-the-boogeyman schtick is completely ridiculous and banal.


You're right, and I should have been more diplomatic, so I edited my post.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Crankout said:


> Let's see...where were we 10 years ago?


We can round off to 2012. So what kind of bike tech did we have in 2012:

1x with clutch just hit the market.

800mm bars were popular with the cool kids and the masses were steadily working their way past 750mm

people were skeptical about carbon but it was arguably tougher than today because it was a little heavier (other than rims which we have now learned need to be as heavy as metal to be durable) We learned those early carbon frames were so tough we could shave a few grams.

Tapered forks dominated with some lingering straight options. 1.5 head tubes were giving way to tapered. Straight head tubes were dead.

twin tube damper shocks were only offered by Cane Creek because the patent they purchased from Ohlins in 06 hadn't expired yet. To my knowledge Fox jumped in on twin tube as soon as they could get their hands on that sweet 06 technology that of course predates 06 in the motor world

Brakes were basically the same as today with plenty of very powerful 4 piston options in dot or mineral. Organic, metal, or a mix for pads.

Tires were basically the same in regards to construction with hard, med and soft compounds in singly ply or DH with a few mid weight casings but we have WAY better mid weight options today. Schwalbe just put out super gravity which eventually forced maxis to offer double down.

Long travel droppers existed

Basically every popular suspension design today existed though some were under patent. I think 4bar (horst) become open in 2012? This includes high pivot idlers which are all the rage now. Corsair comes to mind. Guess they went under around 2012?

Flat pedals were thin and trending larger in platform size. Clips still used the same mechanisms with platform options. Shoes were basically the same other than now we have a million crappy flat pedal shoe options to confuse us. In 2012 there was 5.10, and scary options that were great if you wanted to learn no footers.

Axle standards were 142x12. 150, and 100x15 with a few 110x20 options. BB's were threaded with longer lasting 24mm bearings.

Wheel size was a mix of 29 and 26 with the latter dominating bikes with more than 140 travel. Rims were narrower than today with 25mm being pretty new but go back another 10 years and we have 30mm they just never caught on. Same goes for 2.6 to 3.0 tires we just didn't call it plus.

Geo was leaning towards slacker than 67 for aggressive bikes but anything slacker than 66 was considered too slack. Short reach and wheelbase was still where most thought bikes should be. Cool kids used angle sets and offset bushings to go DH slack on their trail bikes.

When you look only at technology almost nothing has changed other than E shifting/ E droppers. Geo has changed radically. I remember when Roskopp, former owner of santa cruz, said the "nomad 2 is rated for a 180 but we feel it becomes too slack so we recommend 160" (65.5ish with a 180) Of course wheelbase, reach, ST angle.... completely changed how bikes handled. Axle and BB standards are all over the place. 27 replaced 26 save for SS, DJ and some FR. 29 has come to dominate pretty much everything that doesn't involve tricks or cornering. For sure the landscape has changed dramatically over the past decade, but when we look just at technology, bikes have been pretty stagnate actually. I'm not going to include E bikes because they aren't mountain bikes.


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## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

slimat99 said:


> We can round off to 2012. So what kind of bike tech did we have in 2012:
> 
> 1x with clutch just hit the market.
> 
> ...


^^
Just proves "e-" ing a bike is the biggest leap in mtb technology in a long time.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Christ you people are so dramatic. I never said people with their dogs off leash are the Boogeyman, I said they were an annoyance. I'm not sure what you want me to say when the vast majority of people I see on the trails with their dogs unleashed are of a certain age bracket.
> 
> Would it make your guys feelings feel better if I pointed out something annoying that my generation does?


You mean like riding around with cheese stuck to their bumper like they're something special?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

chazpat said:


> You mean like riding around with cheese stuck to their bumper like they're something special?


Damn millennials


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I think it would be interesting to compare forks in particular. I still have some old coil forks circa 2005/6 on bikes that I'm still amazed how well they ride even now. The biggest difference is probably the weight. I think the Travis on one of them is 2.92kg for a single crown fork and 150mm of travel


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Mudguard said:


> I think it would be interesting to compare forks in particular. I still have some old coil forks circa 2005/6 on bikes that I'm still amazed how well they ride even now. The biggest difference is probably the weight. I think the Travis on one of them is 2.92kg for a single crown fork and 150mm of travel


 Like you said, the main difference is weight. Funny thing is materials didn't change, they just shaved material from the chassis, and ditched open bath for sealed cartridges to cut fluid weight. Shim stacks, twin tube.... All stuff that's been with us a long time. Lowers have been made from magnesium, with aluminum uppers starting around 06 I think? Now we're seeing a resurgence of heavier chassis's just with 38mm stanchions bringing us back to pre 2015 when chassis's were a little heavier. Nothing new really. I had the totem and 66 so 38mm is just old school to all the old dogs out there. What's old is new! We even dug up 110mm spacing from the year 2001 just with 15mm now haha.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

slimat99 said:


> Like you said, the main difference is weight. Funny thing is materials didn't change, they just shaved material from the chassis, and ditched open bath for sealed cartridges to cut fluid weight. Shim stacks, twin tube.... All stuff that's been with us a long time. Lowers have been made from magnesium, with aluminum uppers starting around 06 I think? Now we're seeing a resurgence of heavier chassis's just with 38mm stanchions bringing us back to pre 2015 when chassis's were a little heavier. Nothing new really. I had the totem and 66 so 38mm is just old school to all the old dogs out there. What's old is new! We even dug up 110mm spacing from the year 2001 just with 15mm now haha.


Yeah I suspect going to air, and shorter tapered steerers probably shaved most of the weight. Most of my old forks are 20mm too.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Slimat99 did some research!
Thanks slimat99!


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

Sparticus said:


> I read the first dozen or so posts in this thread.
> That was enough to see where this thread was going.
> After doing so, I suggest the thread title be changed to: "The future of the ebike."
> You see, mountain bikes don't have motors.
> ...


You're entitled to an opinion but it's not some conclusive authoritative fact. The very discussion is around a prediction that 10 years out, a lot of new, good quality mountain bikes will have some form of electric drive. If you want to contribute cool, otherwise you don't need to hijack a thread. Better would be why you think they are separate and why would the prediction fail.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

rockymountaindude said:


> You're entitled to an opinion but it's not some conclusive authoritative fact. The very discussion is around a prediction that 10 years out, a lot of new, good quality mountain bikes will have some form of electric drive. If you want to contribute cool, otherwise you don't need to hijack a thread. Better would be why you think they are separate and why would the prediction fail.


Similar to the doom and gloom reports of climate change...


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

rockymountaindude said:


> You're entitled to an opinion but it's not some conclusive authoritative fact. The very discussion is around a prediction that 10 years out, a lot of new, good quality mountain bikes will have some form of electric drive. If you want to contribute cool, otherwise you don't need to hijack a thread. Better would be why you think they are separate and why would the prediction fail.


Your prediction isn't relevant to mountain biking because E bikes aren't mountain bikes. E bikes are a hybrid between a full electric motorbike, and a mountain bike. Just as you can't call a hybrid plug in car an EV or ICE, you can't call an E bike a mountain bike or E moto. This is your thread which is supposed to be about what mountain bikes will look like in 10 years. Keep it to mountain bikes which means no hybrid motor systems. This isn't complicated. Mountain bikes don't have motors. They never have, they never will.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

slimat99 said:


> Your prediction isn't relevant to mountain biking because E bikes aren't mountain bikes. E bikes are a hybrid between a full electric motorbike, and a mountain bike. Just as you can't call a hybrid plug in car an EV or ICE, you can't call an E bike a mountain bike or E moto. This is your thread which is supposed to be about what mountain bikes will look like in 10 years. Keep it to mountain bikes which means no hybrid motor systems. This isn't complicated. Mountain bikes don't have motors. They never have, they never will.


This is your own definition, nobody else's. You don't define what a mountain bike is. The industry does define eBikes as mountain bikes. In the attached image, for instance, Specialized lists an electric mountain bike as the very first bike under the section "Mountain Bikes".

Product Managers from some of the biggest bike makers state that they think all mountain bikes will have some form of electric drive in the future.

The thing that makes eBikes so unique is the way they work. It's still a bicycle in every respect, just that there is assistance to pedalling. But you must pedal, and with an eBike, you can pedal with no assist.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

rockymountaindude said:


> This is your own definition, nobody else's. You don't define what a mountain bike is. The industry does define eBikes as mountain bikes. In the attached image, for instance, Specialized lists an electric mountain bike as the very first bike under the section "Mountain Bikes".
> 
> Product Managers from some of the biggest bike makers state that they think all mountain bikes will have some form of electric drive in the future.
> 
> The thing that makes eBikes so unique is the way they work. It's still a bicycle in every respect, just that there is assistance to pedalling. But you must pedal, and with an eBike, you can pedal with no assist.


Like I said in my first post, if this comes to pass, then I'm going to be just another cranky old hiker. And I'll be trying to get all of the motorized abominations out of the woods.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Harold said:


> Like I said in my first post, if this comes to pass, then I'm going to be just another cranky old hiker. And I'll be trying to get all of the motorized abominations out of the woods.


I'll meet up with you to ride the last of the actual MTB designated trail systems. Motos can do their own thing...


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

OP, the bike industry muddies the waters because they want to sell E bikes. I don't need the auto industry to tell me a Prius is a hybrid between an EV and an ICE just as I don't need the bike industry to tell me an E bike is a hybrid between a motorbike and mountain bike. You just keep pedaling that Prius bike of yours thinking it's a mountain bike all you want. Anyone with a brain can see what's going on. Many choose to ignore the obvious because mountain biking is too hard for them and they can't accept that they quit mountain biking to pedal a Prius.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

slimat99 said:


> OP, the bike industry muddies the waters because they want to sell E bikes. I don't need the auto industry to tell me a Prius is a hybrid between an EV and an ICE just as I don't need the bike industry to tell me an E bike is a hybrid between a motorbike and mountain bike. You just keep pedaling that Prius bike of yours thinking it's a mountain bike all you want. Anyone with a brain can see what's going on. Many choose to ignore the obvious because mountain biking is too hard for them and they can't accept that they quit mountain biking to pedal a Prius.


You're not saying anything. You're free to have an opinion like anyone else. What are the specific issues you see with eBikes.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

rockymountaindude said:


> You're not saying anything. You're free to have an opinion like anyone else. What are the specific issues you see with eBikes.


It's not an opinion that E bikes are a hybrid between a full E motorbike and a mountain bike. That's just a fact. My specific issue with E bikes is they want access to non motorized trails. I have no issues with those that prefer to ride hybrid motorbikes instead of mountain bikes assuming they don't threaten access to non motorized multi use trails. If riding hybrid motorbikes is your jam great. It's not mine. It will never be mine regardless of how old and beat up my body becomes. If I'm too weak to climb, I'll be too weak to shred the DH bro. So what's the point? Pedal a prius around the woods wishing I could still shred?


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

rockymountaindude said:


> You're not saying anything. You're free to have an opinion like anyone else. What are the specific issues you see with eBikes.


Why assume people who feel differently than you do have problem with ebikes?
I have one. I enjoy it.
Also have mountain bikes -- yeah, actual mountain bikes (which lack a motor of any kind).
Also have a dirt bike.

As for the hate that permeates the ebike vs mountain bike brouhaha, the main contributing problem is the people who can't tell the difference &/or insist that there is no difference.
In other words OP, you're part of the problem.
Bike manufacturer opinions don't count. They try to blur the lines so that they can sell more bikes. They do this for money, not for purity of sport.

Enjoy your ebike.
But while riding it, stop trying to masquerade as a mountain bike.
It's not a mountain bike.
It's an ebike.
=sParty


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

Sparticus said:


> Why assume people who feel differently than you do have problem with ebikes?
> I have one. I enjoy it.
> Also have mountain bikes -- yeah, actual mountain bikes (which lack a motor of any kind).
> Also have a dirt bike.
> ...


It's a mountain bike.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

... and that's why they're not allowed technically on most trails here.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

rockymountaindude said:


> It's a mountain bike.


You're the problem.

Whew, don't we feel better now that we've successfully persuaded one another of the truth?


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

Sparticus said:


> You're the problem.
> 
> Whew, don't we feel better now that we've successfully persuaded one another of the truth?


The real problem is old thinking.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

rockymountaindude said:


> The real problem is old thinking.


Again we disagree.

The real problem is closed minds.

I embrace ebiking -- I love it as much as I love off-road motorcycling. It's an awesome new sport.

Too bad you don't see that ebiking is a new sport -- the motor makes it fundamentally different than a mountain bike inasmuch as mountain bikes lack motors of any kind.

Mountain bikes are human powered. Just as all bicycles are.

Just because ebiking is a new sport doesn't mean it's bad. Why are you so defensive about this?

By the way, after owning three types of two-wheeled contraptions (mountain bike, ebike, dirt bike) I'd put the ebike closer to the off-road motorcycle than to the mountain bike on that continuum.

After owning and riding one, my literal & accurate ebike definition is this: an underpowered electric motorcycle with an awkward throttle.

Why not call the ebike an electric dirt bike since it's closer to being that than it is to being a mountain bike?

Your argument about one thing being the same as something else -- something that it's not -- would justify such an error in equal measure as calling an ebike a mountain bike.

Or you could continue to roll in your delirious confusion about mountain bikes and ebikes being one and the same -- your choice.

In any case the last word will be yours -- I'm done here. Adios.
=sParty


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Sparticus said:


> After owning and riding one, my literal & accurate ebike definition is this: an underpowered electric motorcycle with an awkward throttle.


I like that definition. But it raises a thorny administrative point. If it's considered a motorized vehicle, then trail use guidelines have to be adjusted. The standard restriction is "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES". Electric bikes wiggle around this by being "pedal assist" rather than twist throttle activated, although this distinction is becoming meaningless as ebikes become more powerful and easily converted. And if electric motors are allowed then why not internal combustion engines? Trail access wars commence!


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Gasp4Air said:


> I like that definition. But it raises a thorny administrative point. If it's considered a motorized vehicle, then trail use guidelines have to be adjusted. The standard restriction is "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES". Electric bikes wiggle around this by being "pedal assist" rather than twist throttle activated, although this distinction is becoming meaningless as ebikes become more powerful and easily converted. And if electric motors are allowed then why not internal combustion engines? Trail access wars commence!


All true. My definition isn't based on legalities -- that's up to land managers. My definition is based on what the vehicle literally is. In this regard, my definition is accurate.
Here's another MTBR thread that includes interesting content on this subject:








Big back country routes


After reading the slick Shimano eBike mag-advertisement supplement (Further)included with my last FreeHub or Mountain Flyer issue, I got all excited to go tackle some big mountain routes with massive elevation on my(wife's) eBike this past weekend. All I can say is, I'll be doing more of this...




www.mtbr.com




Perhaps, like that thread, this thread will get locked if close-minded attitudes about ebikes lead to unacceptable disagreement.
=sParty


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

Not trying to defend eBikes here but to say you can’t see the difference between an electric motor and an internal combustion motor is a little rich. Noise and exhaust come to mind right away.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Sparticus said:


> Too bad you don't see that ebiking is a new sport -- the motor makes it fundamentally different than a mountain bike inasmuch as mountain bikes lack motors of any kind.


Exactly. the presence of a motor is a critical difference. That motor makes it a different thing. I agree less with adjusting the definition of nonmotorized to include pedal-assist ebikes than I do with adjusting the status of certain trails to include the use of e-assist bikes. It's a very subtle difference on its surface, but it's a huge difference in practice.


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

Squirrel in the Spokes said:


> Not trying to defend eBikes here but to say you can't see the difference between an electric motor and an internal combustion motor is a little rich. Noise and exhaust come to mind right away.


Instead of the exhaust coming out of the tail pipe it comes out of the electricity power plant. Big difference.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Instead of the exhaust coming out of the tail pipe it comes out of the electricity power plant. Big difference.


from a management perspective, though, there's really little difference. both make their respective vehicles go faster than human power is capable of.


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Instead of the exhaust coming out of the tail pipe it comes out of the electricity power plant. Big difference.


Don't worry we can just make those power plants nuclear and then nothing bad can ever happen! As for the dead batteries&#8230; launch them into the sun?


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Squirrel in the Spokes said:


> Not trying to defend eBikes here but to say you can't see the difference between an electric motor and an internal combustion motor is a little rich. Noise and exhaust come to mind right away.


Squirrel, I don't know if you're talking to me because you didn't employ MTBR's nifty 'quote' feature when you replied. But if you are talking to me, then I suggest you go back and re-read what I wrote, which has nothing to do with confusing electric motors with internal combustion engines.
Or did you already know this and just decided to stir the pot? You generally come across as a perceptive fellow on these forums so I'm leaning toward the latter explanation.
=sParty


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

It was in response to the post above yours: “And if electric motors are allowed then why not internal combustion engines? Trail access wars commence!”


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Squirrel in the Spokes said:


> It was in response to the post above yours: "And if electric motors are allowed then why not internal combustion engines? Trail access wars commence!"


Thanks for clarifying and sorry I came at you.
May I respectfully suggest, whenever replying to a specific person or comment, that you employ the "Reply" button in the future so it's clear who your comments are directed at.
Thanks for considering this.
=sParty


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

rockymountaindude said:


> This is your own definition, nobody else's. You don't define what a mountain bike is. The industry does
> 
> View attachment 1948381


The industry defines what they want to SELL.

They see a loophole where they can get motorized vehicles onto trails that someone fought for under the understanding they were going to be for human-powered use. They make money exploiting this loophole, so they will.


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

Squirrel in the Spokes said:


> Don't worry we can just make those power plants nuclear and then nothing bad can ever happen! As for the dead batteries&#8230; launch them into the sun?


Unfortunately the people who have been freaking out the most about global warming are the same nutters who did everything they could to prevent nuclear power. So we are basically screwed. I guess we could shut all the nuke plants down and go back to coal like the Germans. Of course then we will all be paying several times more for electricity like the Germans are now.


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

I may be weird but one of the the issues I have with eBikes is the lack of affinity I feel for their riders. When I am out MTB riding or hiking or trail running or even road cycling and I see another person engaged in one of those activities I feel a sense of kinship. I know they suffered and sacrificed, that they are putting up with the same things I am. When I see an eBiker I feel about the same way I feel when I am Nordic skiing and am passed by a snowmobiler.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

It will be a really sad state if in the next ten years all the bike industry can come up with is more motors, electronics, and hidden wires/cables/hoses.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> I may be weird but one of the the issues I have with eBikes is the lack of affinity I feel for their riders.


I'm a bit the same. At one of my favourite riding spots there is a nasty pinch at the end of a climb. Everyone crests it and pulls over for a rest. It's rare that the e-bike riders need to stop and catch their breath.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

ugadawg said:


> I don't have a desire for an e-bike, but I'm confused about how they mess up access to trails. I've seen that some trails don't allow e-bikes. What's the reason for that? Of someone wants an e-bike, then they can buy one, but I'm like several other posts in that I don't want anything else that requires charging, including electric shifters. I can see where electric shifters could be better than manual, but I don't want to miss a ride because I forgot to charge them.


There are local trail systems that were built with grant money based upon non-motorized use. You can imagine how e-bikes would affect that.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Unfortunately the people who have been freaking out the most about global warming are the same nutters who did everything they could to prevent nuclear power. So we are basically screwed. I guess we could shut all the nuke plants down and go back to coal like the Germans. Of course then we will all be paying several times more for electricity like the Germans are now.


If only there was a way to power a bicycle without electricity.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

C’mon guys, there will always be bicycles.
It’s the greatest invention ever.
Yeah, it’s a new age so there will probably always be ebikes, too.
But just, well, let’s not lose sight of the fact that the bicycle — the human powered thing — will always be with us.
Because it will.
=sParty


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

I live in one of the world's best Mountain Biking areas. Vancouver, British Columbia. I regularly mountain bike Mt. Seymour, Mt. Fromme, Cypress, Squamish, and Whistler Bike Park. Including also places like Sun Peaks in Kamloops, Myra Canyon in Kelowna, etc. I grew up out here riding mountain bikes as a kid all the way back to the 90s. Today, with my Rocky Mountain PowerPlay, not one trail at any of these places disallows eBikes. Not one that I have seen. Nobody cares. It's full access. 

When it comes to trail access, I see a few Americans discuss their local, regional trail access issues but that does not in any way translate to the rest of the planet. You may have that issue but that issue may not be big enough worldwide to affect the onslaught of eMountain Bikes and be an issue accordingly.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

rockymountaindude said:


> Today, with my Rocky Mountain PowerPlay, not one trail at any of these places disallows eBikes. Not one that I have seen. Nobody cares. It's full access.


No one cares until someone turns up on a KTM E-XC, points to the battery and says E-Bike. That said, there are logistical issues with electric motos, trailer required as opposed to just going onto an existing bike rack, and not being able to ride them on the road etc.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

I think it 10 years the world is going to be in such a state of collapse that we are barely going to be worried about mountain biking and most of us won't be able to afford new bikes. 

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

93EXCivic said:


> I think it 10 years the world is going to be in such a state of collapse that we are barely going to be worried about mountain biking and most of us won't be able to afford new bikes.


I, unfortunately, think you are probably closest to the correct answer.

As for std vs e. There will always be both just from the cost perspective. You can buy a $400 cheapo intro bike that you can treat as a throw away commuter or give to a child to thrash, but the same in e costs $2K. I do believe that e-bikes will take over the majority of the MTB market share eventually.

Being almost half a century old, I would add that 10 years is not as much time to "evolve" as you think. I've lived through many of the "huge" technological advances, and there has always been a "feel" to it. Go back and watch Apple's initial iPhone release unveiling. Everyone knew it was coming, there was a palatable buzz around mobile phone/blackberry/iPod/technology that if you were in the market, you knew change was coming.

e-bikes has the start of that feel, but I don't think it will reach the "superbike" level as quick as you think. However, I will say they are already pretty amazing, and honestly, being as good as they are will actually slow innovation down for a few years until most of the public gets onboard.

Once eMTBs make up the majority of the market, that's when we will see huge leaps in technology.


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

I'll split my post in two sections: Where I see MTB going in the next 10yrs and where I'd like MTB to be going.

First the prediction. Bikes are going to become even more expensive. SRAM will release an even cheaper and crappier groupset than SX that will somehow find it's way on complete 3.500€ bikes. Since carbon FS frames are getting chunkier and e-bikes are slowly getting slimmer, it will be hard telling one from the other. Some frames may offer the ability to retrofit or remove the battery and motor (a few Fazua powered e-bikes already do that). Motorized or not, all frames will feature size specific rear centers. Electronic groupsets will become more affordable. Wheelbases will stop getting longer. All mtb's will have 29" wheels apart from youth models.

And what I'd wish to see in the next 10yrs: Tyre materials evolving so we can have light and durable carcasses. Say 850gr with the durability of a 1200gr. New rubber compounds that grip in the wet but last much longer than current offerings. More nice bikes made of metal. Smaller drivetrain manufacturers gaining market share. Storage space on aluminum downtubes (Trek already do that on the new Slash). Bike designers focusing on actual handling regardless of trends (not saying that these two don't align at times). Even lower standover heights (I'm 5'4"). Manufacturers offering the option to recycle or refurbish old components. Longer product cycles (the model year thing doesn't help anyone).


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

rockymountaindude said:


> I live in one of the world's best Mountain Biking areas. Vancouver, British Columbia. I regularly mountain bike Mt. Seymour, Mt. Fromme, Cypress, Squamish, and Whistler Bike Park. Including also places like Sun Peaks in Kamloops, Myra Canyon in Kelowna, etc. I grew up out here riding mountain bikes as a kid all the way back to the 90s. Today, with my Rocky Mountain PowerPlay, not one trail at any of these places disallows eBikes. Not one that I have seen. Nobody cares. It's full access.
> 
> When it comes to trail access, I see a few Americans discuss their local, regional trail access issues but that does not in any way translate to the rest of the planet. You may have that issue but that issue may not be big enough worldwide to affect the onslaught of eMountain Bikes and be an issue accordingly.


Apparently,
BC == World
Anywhere else != World


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

bikeranzin said:


> Apparently,
> BC == World
> Anywhere else != World


I didn't imply that. I used my area to demonstrate that trail access as a few others have mentioned does not carry to every part of the world. I don't know if it will become a worldwide problem but can't generalize your region to the rest of the world.


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## TanMan (Aug 31, 2014)

justwan naride said:


> I'll split my post in two sections: Where I see MTB going in the next 10yrs and where I'd like MTB to be going.
> 
> First the prediction. Bikes are going to become even more expensive. SRAM will release an even cheaper and crappier groupset than SX that will somehow find it's way on complete 3.500€ bikes. Since carbon FS frames are getting chunkier and e-bikes are slowly getting slimmer, it will be hard telling one from the other. Some frames may offer the ability to retrofit or remove the battery and motor (a few Fazua powered e-bikes already do that). Motorized or not, all frames will feature size specific rear centers. Electronic groupsets will become more affordable. Wheelbases will stop getting longer. All mtb's will have 29" wheels apart from youth models.
> 
> And what I'd wish to see in the next 10yrs: Tyre materials evolving so we can have light and durable carcasses. Say 850gr with the durability of a 1200gr. New rubber compounds that grip in the wet but last much longer than current offerings. More nice bikes made of metal. Smaller drivetrain manufacturers gaining market share. Storage space on aluminum downtubes (Trek already do that on the new Slash). Bike designers focusing on actual handling regardless of trends (not saying that these two don't align at times). Even lower standover heights (I'm 5'4"). Manufacturers offering the option to recycle or refurbish old components. Longer product cycles (the model year thing doesn't help anyone).


This 

Adding to what I'd like to see the world of mtb headed- Manufacturers on this continent bringing manufacturing expertise back and increasingly sourcing sustainable raw materials by reducing need on global transportation. 
Ibis and WAO are starting to do that with the latter taking it further by sourcing parts and components from partners within a 500 mile radius.

Longer product cycle. I tend to hold on to my things instead of upgrading every year or two. Selfishly I'll like to know the shiny new bike I just bought won't be outdated in a year or 2. Without compromising innovation, perhaps manufacturers can offer retrofittable improvements that still keep the current models relevant. Ibis had done this when the industry started to move towards boost standards by offering a retrofit boost swingarm upgrade for the HD3 model. I still lament not getting one back then thinking it was too expensive, now I am finding it harder to find non-boost wheel replacements.

Nothing against the future of e-bikes because this is what the thread is starting to look like, instead of looking at mtb as a whole. A world of mostly just ebikes sounds like a dystopian future of the sport. Technology advances simply added another tier of product group (ebikes) and IMO, not totally replace everything that came before. And yes, ebikes are here to stay. But so are what people are now calling "acoustic bikes" - Full suspension ones, Hard tails, SS HT, fat etc. they all have a place in the wonderful world of this sport. Gives folks variety and choices. I for one, love mountain biking because it gets me away from the electronics, screens and batteries- I have enough of that in my day to day.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> I may be weird but one of the the issues I have with eBikes is the lack of affinity I feel for their riders. When I am out MTB riding or hiking or trail running or even road cycling and I see another person engaged in one of those activities I feel a sense of kinship. I know they suffered and sacrificed, that they are putting up with the same things I am. When I see an eBiker I feel about the same way I feel when I am Nordic skiing and am passed by a snowmobiler.


Well-stated. I've worked hard for decades to remain in excellent shape for someone my age. I'm no fan of seeing someone get something for nothing. It's certainly not a solid argument against e-bikes, but it's a feeling that I've yet to shake.

Of course we all know there are exceptions for those with physical limitations, but that's not the norm. Kind of like vaccinations.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Assuming my prediction of complete societal/economic collapse doesn't come true, what I would like to see from the bike industry are more affordable choices of bike packing/rigid mountain bikes as I think these make a lot of sense for a lot of riders. Basically around the price of beginner hardtail type stuff sub $1000 and so a rigid fork instead of a Suntour pogo stick and serviceable but not fancy components and some mounts (couple bottle mounts+rear rack mount+fork mounts). I know so many people that a bike like this would serve perfectly but there are so few options. 

The other thing I'd like to see is a slight resurgence in 26 and 29+. I think each has a use case. 26in for freeride and jibbing around and fun. 29+ for bikepacking/single speeding/ rigid riding. 

But I seriously doubt we will see either of those things happen. What probably will happen is more electronics, more stupid standards, more cost.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

Crankout said:


> Well-stated. I've worked hard for decades to remain in excellent shape for someone my age. I'm no fan of seeing someone get something for nothing. It's certainly not a solid argument against e-bikes, but it's a feeling that I've yet to shake.
> 
> Of course we all know there are exceptions for those with physical limitations, but that's not the norm. Kind of like vaccinations.


The biases against eBikes are very interesting and they just keep going. This thing about eBikes not requiring much energy or condition to use is such bullocks. For instance, in my case, I just went biking the other day with my Rocky Mountain PowerPlay. I run at a Special Forces pace and am quite fit. I was soaked sweating by the time I was done. True, the climb is easier, but I keep my bike in the lowest assist setting at all times, and even though the climb is easier, it takes effort and if you go faster you need to expend more energy on the climb. The downhill is brutal. It was Mount Seymour, Dale's Trail, Black Diamond. It's a notoriously difficult technical trail (YouTube videos on it). The guy ahead of me was soaked as well. I've biked with others who have eBikes and the same result for them. eBikes don't magically allow you to float down a hill. You expend in some cases more energy on them downhill because they're heavier. In some spots when you have to peddle a technical uphill part of a downhill they can help. Overall, having an eBike offers very little advantage over a manual bike when it comes to energy expenditure except for the climb, which I grant is half the adventure. However, manual bikes can have smaller crankrings that makes it easier to climb because the first gear is so easy, and the weight of manual bikes are materially lighter than eBikes.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

93EXCivic said:


> what I would like to see from the bike industry are more affordable choices of bike packing/rigid mountain bikes as I think these make a lot of sense for a lot of riders. Basically around the price of beginner hardtail type stuff sub $1000 and so a rigid fork instead of a Suntour pogo stick and serviceable but not fancy components and some mounts (couple bottle mounts+rear rack mount+fork mounts). I know so many people that a bike like this would serve perfectly but there are so few options.


I actually see this as something likely to occur/is occurring (slowly). With the hyper-specialization of bikes and with most mountain bikes going towards the rowdy side of the spectrum, there's a hole in most manufacturers' product lineups right now. I was talking to a coworker recently about this exact thing, and we both agree that gravel bikes are exploiting (one side of, anyway) this hole. The rigid bikepacking/adventure mtb, IMO, exploits the other side of this hole, and it's lagging a bit behind drop bar gravel bikes.

I do agree that this sort of bike _can_ be made less expensively, but most mfrs have not begun offering it (yet). The drop bar gravel bikes are always going to be more expensive, because drop bar controls cost SO MUCH MORE than flat bar controls. The parts already exist to do it quite affordably. Something like a Microshift Advent or Advent X drivetrain, basic Deore brakes, inexpensive OEM wheels, basic metal frame, rigid fork (but compatible with suspension if one so chooses), etc. I think that should be able to hit a sub-$1k price point easy for an entry model. Salsa was close to this sort of idea when they came out with the Fargo. But the drop bar setup on that bike pushed the price point higher.

I have a Salsa Vaya that I really like, but there's a lot of gravel in my area where it's much less than ideal. 40mm tires make for some sketch handling when the gravel is loose/soft and it pitches steeply downhill. I manage, but the descents aren't exactly enjoyable. My wife got rid of her drop bar gravel bike for this reason. She wants a mtb for this purpose. And the more I think about it, the more I think that such a bike would suit me a bit better, too.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

looks like OP is trying to turn this into the humble brag thread


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Harold said:


> looks like OP is trying to turn this into the humble brag thread


Or even convince himself of something.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Harold said:


> I actually see this as something likely to occur/is occurring (slowly). With the hyper-specialization of bikes and with most mountain bikes going towards the rowdy side of the spectrum, there's a hole in most manufacturers' product lineups right now. I was talking to a coworker recently about this exact thing, and we both agree that gravel bikes are exploiting (one side of, anyway) this hole. The rigid bikepacking/adventure mtb, IMO, exploits the other side of this hole, and it's lagging a bit behind drop bar gravel bikes.
> 
> I do agree that this sort of bike _can_ be made less expensively, but most mfrs have not begun offering it (yet). The drop bar gravel bikes are always going to be more expensive, because drop bar controls cost SO MUCH MORE than flat bar controls. The parts already exist to do it quite affordably. Something like a Microshift Advent or Advent X drivetrain, basic Deore brakes, inexpensive OEM wheels, basic metal frame, rigid fork (but compatible with suspension if one so chooses), etc. I think that should be able to hit a sub-$1k price point easy for an entry model. Salsa was close to this sort of idea when they came out with the Fargo. But the drop bar setup on that bike pushed the price point higher.
> 
> I have a Salsa Vaya that I really like, but there's a lot of gravel in my area where it's much less than ideal. 40mm tires make for some sketch handling when the gravel is loose/soft and it pitches steeply downhill. I manage, but the descents aren't exactly enjoyable. My wife got rid of her drop bar gravel bike for this reason. She wants a mtb for this purpose. And the more I think about it, the more I think that such a bike would suit me a bit better, too.


Yeah I am going to build one with a custom Marino frame.

I have several friends that either want to ride greenways/gravel roads/double track/tow kids trailers/some around town bike and some of them also want to do bikepacking but they don't want dropbars. The choices for them are either shitty hybrids, a hardtail even though a suspension fork doesn't make sense for them or spend a bit more then they want to on a Kona Unit or Surly KM. I love that the whole bikepacking/adventure/gravel riding thing is much bigger now because it is a great way to get people into bikes that aren't interested in either racing or going full send. I just wish there were more inexpensive flat bar choices tailored to it.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

rockymountaindude said:


> True, the climb is easier, but I keep my bike in the lowest assist setting at all times,





rockymountaindude said:


> and even though the climb is easier, it takes effort and if you go faster you need to expend more energy on the climb.


Can't you just put your bike in a faster "mode" and go faster given the same level of input? To go faster on a bike, yes, you need to exert more energy to go faster (or get better at biking, situation dependent).



rockymountaindude said:


> However, manual bikes can have smaller crankrings that makes it easier to climb because the first gear is so easy, and the weight of manual bikes are materially lighter than eBikes.


Gear ratios are not like modes. Sure, you can stick a small chainring on your bike, but you'll be climbing slower at the same cadence (a.k.a. power is the same). Also, you can stick the same ring on your e-bike, if you'd like. Unless I'm totally mistaken, the "low assist mode" is at least able to overcome the e-bikes own weight, right? I can't imagine the point of them if that wasn't the case.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

Haha, so the moderators moved this discussion to the “e-bike” safe space because motorbikes were getting flamed in the “General” forum.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

steadite said:


> Haha, so the moderators moved this discussion to the "e-bike" safe space because motorbikes were getting flamed in the "General" forum.


I don't think that was why. /looksattitleandgoesuhyeahthisbelongsintheebikeforum


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

roughster said:


> I don't think that was why. /looksattitleandgoesuhyeahthisbelongsintheebikeforum


The title was changed as well. Probably why it's kinda awkward now.

I'm sure in the next decade, ebikes will change a lot more than mountain bikes. They may actually diverge more as manufacturers design specifically for ebikes rather than just adding a motor to a mtb design and using mtb parts, just like how mtbs used to be designed more based on road bikes but it was realized that there are advantages of not doing that.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I hear this a lot as justification for ebikes. I'd argue that France, Switzerland and other countries in the Alps regions aren't a good indicator of anything. The Alps are some of the steepest terrain on the planet, and one of the few places I see ebikes making a lot of sense. It's more of a "right tool for the job" scenario and less an "ebikes are taking over, just look at France".


That's everywhere in France, Mediterranean, Atlantic. Nobody is buying non e bikes.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

slimat99 said:


> Yeah just writing it out is depressing to me. We are all way too hung up on what bikes are going to be like without thinking about where we'll be able to ride them. Ebikers think motors won't cause access issues. The bike industry doesn't care how increased traffic will affect access, they only want to sell more bikes.
> 
> MTB was better before apps blew up trails. Mountain bikes don't have motors period. As far as I'm concerned when you're talking about e bikes, you're not talking about mountain biking. Anyone that prefers riding with a motor that's none of my business. Have at it, just stop acting like every mountain biker is going to be like you on day. And don't stick your head in the sand over the impact your desire to have a motor will have on non motorized trail access.


Are you worried about your Strava times?

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Harold said:


> If I can't get the sorts of nonmotorized bicycles that I like, or the parts to maintain what I have, then I'll stop mountain biking. Riding an ebike is not what I want. Just like how I don't want electronic shifting. I don't want to plug my bike in just so I can ride it (assuming the batteries don't catch fire and burn my house down). If I get too decrepit to ride my nonmotorized bicycle in the mountains, then I'll stop riding my nonmotorized bicycle in the mountains. I'll ride it on flatter, smoother terrain. Things like paved greenways, or even just around my neighborhood. I'm not _entitled_ to ride.
> 
> Honestly, I feel that if my health and mobility are not in great shape, then it's not responsible of me to go deep into the forest/mountains where a problem with my ebike means that I'm screwed. And before you go thinking that my health has always been in peak condition, you might want to take it easy. It most certainly has not been, and there was a time that my health was NOT appropriate for venturing deep into the forest. Would an emtb have allowed me to do so? An emtb absolutely could have taken me deeper into the woods than was safe or responsible for me to go. And it could have taken me at a higher speed than was safe or responsible for me in my health condition. Guess what I did during that time? I didn't ride my bike in the woods. For awhile, I pedaled on a trainer, exclusively, using a HRM to ensure that my heart rate stayed below a certain threshold (which was a surprisingly light work load - one which an ebike would have put me at speeds dangerous for me in my condition). Then, I pedaled on the streets in my neighborhood and on smooth greenways. Again, with a fairly light workload. Keeping speeds (and consequences) low were important. Higher speeds from an ebike for a given workload would have been very bad for me. And once my health improved to the point that I could get back on the trails again, I still had a lot to work on to build back my technical skills. An ebike would not have helped me there. Being heavier would have made it more difficult for me to work with. So no, ebikes don't democratize anything. There are still people who are excluded.
> 
> ...


Ok, Karen

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

rockymountaindude said:


> Your bit about cost is totally incorrect. Non eBike mountain bikes are extremely expensive, and there are many models that are MORE expensive than eBikes. Rocky Mountain full suspension PowerPlays start out around $5500 USD and for Carbon Fibre around $7200 USD. These are expensive but there are many manual bikes that cost more, even north of $10,000.
> 
> Spec for spec manual bikes will generally be cheaper today, but in 10 years with a lot more sales prices will improve.


I actually think that in 10 years non e bikes with be more expensive, because there will be so much fewer being built.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

I see the tread has been moved and the title changes since I posted, making half of my text off-topic. 

Anyway, to be on topic, I believe e-bikes are at their early infancy and will change drastically. Lighter, slimmer, more power, more range. Design, geometry and components might also change to cover specific needs (already happening with ultra short cranks). I agree that over time they might become very different beasts to regular bikes. On another note, I actually like that EWS-E include a technical climbing stage in their races. 

I don't own one and I probably won't in the future unless my situation changes a lot (esp.financially, haha). I rarely shuttle, prefer to ride to the top. I can see the benefits of both pedal assist and shuttling/lifts, but the reasons I ride don't align with these practices. I'm not a fan of the "more" mentality (more trails, more laps, more pr's). I also dislike having to charge devices before going out. Finally I hate "greenwashing" passionately, and e-bikes, unless they replace a car, are anything but "green", esp. their batteries.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

chazpat said:


> Or even convince himself of something.


Or earn a paycheck. Pushing it pretty hard


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

justwan naride said:


> I don't own one and I probably won't in the future unless my situation changes a lot (esp.financially, haha). I rarely shuttle, prefer to ride to the top. I can see the benefits of both pedal assist and shuttling/lifts, but the reasons I ride don't align with these practices. I'm not a fan of the "more" mentality (more trails, more laps, more pr's). I also dislike having to charge devices before going out. Finally I hate "greenwashing" passionately, and e-bikes, unless they replace a car, are anything but "green", esp. their batteries.


This is where I am at. But if why work situation ever changed to where I was working from home or had a commute where I would die twice a day if I tried to bike it, I'd totally buy a Surly Big Easy or something similar to partially replace a car.

That does point to the one thing I'd love to see more affordable cargo e-bikes.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

In regard to enduro E racing at least, you need it all - fitness, skills and mental toughness
Check out the " power stage" concept - even the top pros are still learning etc.








And it looks like the mainstream OEs better get their act together ha ha


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

rod9301 said:


> Are you worried about your Strava times?
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


Yes I'm top 400 in Florida! I can't afford to lose a single spot!


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Jack7782 said:


> In regard to enduro E racing at least, you need it all - fitness, skills and mental toughness
> Check out the " power stage" concept - even the top pros are still learning etc.
> View attachment 1948693
> 
> And it looks like the mainstream OEs better get their act together ha ha


Ebike racing may be the lamest thing in cycling I have ever heard of.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Jack7782 said:


> In regard to enduro E racing at least, you need it all - fitness, skills and mental toughness
> Check out the " power stage" concept - even the top pros are still learning etc.
> View attachment 1948693
> 
> And it looks like the mainstream OEs better get their act together ha ha


Most the top Pros do not race the Ebike series or if they do it's just to get more practice for the real race. They only have the ebike events at a few rounds also. While I love ebikes, ebike enduro racing hasn't quite caught on on the west coast anyways. The classes are usually really small, and my group of friends usually makes up most the racers as well.


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

rod9301 said:


> Ok, Karen
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


I don't think you know what a Karen is


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

kapusta said:


> Ebike racing may be the lamest thing in cycling I have ever heard of.


I know I'll regret asking, but why do you say that? You don't have to like the category of bike/motorcycle, to acknowledge the sport or racing.

I want nothing to do with horses or race cars, but I don't think their sports and races are lame.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Squirrel in the Spokes said:


> I don't think you know what a Karen is


Karen wants to speak with your manager.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

RBoardman said:


> I know I'll regret asking, but why do you say that? You don't have to like the category of bike/motorcycle, to acknowledge the sport or racing.
> 
> I want nothing to do with horses or race cars, but I don't think their sports and races are lame.


I don't know enought about race cars, horses, or motorcycles to express an opinion about what is and is not lame in those worlds.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Some of what the OP said is already true! I have wireless shifting and dropper seat post! I experience the some the best shifting ever no matter what the condition are. The dropper post works awesome and I love the easy actuation. 

I ride a Levo & there is already a HR driven mode! Set your HR average you want to keep and it’ll keep adjusting the wattage to match what you set. 

I’m looking forward to smaller/lighter motors putting out class 1 power and batteries getting smaller and gaining WH. 

I think it would be neat a drive train gearbox design like the Rolf hub, but inside the motor case. 

I’d say smaller displays, but Specialized display is already top notch, but the other brands needs to get more compact. 

I love that we already have a choice to offer people a lighter weight and less power ebike. I think those are going to also keep getting lighter. 

I’d be happy when a class 1 ebike is between 40 to 42lbs. 

I think min travel on an ebike should start off with at least 150mm. I’m a big fan of mullet bikes and I like slack head angles! 


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

mtbbiker said:


> Some of what the OP said is already true! I have wireless shifting and dropper seat post! I experience the some the best shifting ever no matter what the condition are. The dropper post works awesome and I love the easy actuation.
> 
> I ride a Levo & there is already a HR driven mode! Set your HR average you want to keep and it'll keep adjusting the wattage to match what you set.
> 
> ...


Awesome. Yes a chunk of my predictions are true today. It's about reaching critical mass and getting costs down. Question for you: after riding the eBike you do, has it changed the way you look at non eBike mountain bikes?

For me, having all of this technology in my bike and how effective it is at increasing performance makes me look at non eBike mountain bikes as antiquated. I still like them and I have a second bike that is a non eBike but it's like going back in time in certain ways. Thoughts?


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

eBikes will become passé when memory implantation helmets become widely available. You can enjoy the memory of that ass kickin' ride with no effort at all. Call it Total Recoil.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

rockymountaindude said:


> Awesome. Yes a chunk of my predictions are true today. It's about reaching critical mass and getting costs down. Question for you: after riding the eBike you do, has it changed the way you look at non eBike mountain bikes?
> 
> For me, having all of this technology in my bike and how effective it is at increasing performance makes me look at non eBike mountain bikes as antiquated. I still like them and I have a second bike that is a non eBike but it's like going back in time in certain ways. Thoughts?


Myself and all my emtb friends all come from MTB's and some still go back and forth. I look no different at them, except at times when they are walking up a long steep grades and just suffering. You can see the suffering on their face. I get to the top and instantly go into DH mode.

I don't understand the desire of: single speeders, fat bikes, gravel bikes, but I never ever have gone into those forums to troll. It sad when non-Emtb people come into the ebike forum to give an opinion on something most have never tried.

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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> Myself and all my emtb friends all come from MTB's and some still go back and forth. I look no different at them, except at times when they are walking up a long steep grades and just suffering. You can see the suffering on their face. I get to the top and instantly go into DH mode.
> 
> I don't understand the desire of: single speeders, fat bikes, gravel bikes, but I never ever have gone into those forums to troll. It sad when non-Emtb people come into the ebike forum to give an opinion on something most have never tried.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I knew this was going to happen. Here is some needed background to this thread:

The OP posted this in *General Discussion* (NOT the eBike forum). Also, the original titlle was "Future of the MTB".

It stayed there for a quite a while before having the title changed and being moved to the eBike forum.

So yeah, start a post in general saying that we will all be riding eMTBs in 10 years and you are going to get some pushback.

BTW, you just blew the argument that folks on eMTBs ride just as hard as those on regular MTBs.

But I do respect your being honest that riding an ebike is easier. We all know that it their appeal, but so few will just come out and say it.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

kapusta said:


> I knew this was going to happen. Here is some needed background to this thread:
> 
> The OP posted this in *General Discussion* (NOT the eBike forum). Also, the original titlle was "Future of the MTB".
> 
> ...


Explain how people on eBikes don't ride as hard as those on non eBikes.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rockymountaindude said:


> Explain how people on eBikes don't ride as hard as those on non eBikes.


Is it that hard to just read the post I was responding to?

Ask him why his friends on non-ebikes are suffering on the climbs and he is not.


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

kapusta said:


> Is it that hard to just read the post I was responding to?
> 
> Ask him why his friends on non-ebikes are suffering on the climbs and he is not.


That doesn't mean people don't ride as hard on eBikes. There are sections of climbs that can be impossible to pedal manually, where an eBike can get you through it. But that in itself doesn't mean people in some general sense don't ride as hard as those with non eBikes.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rockymountaindude said:


> I'm not sure if you realize it or not but I am the OP. Ya, I agree it is about the future of mountain biking and I believe it's eBikes, and yes many don't agree, you're right.


No, what you are predicting is not the future of mountain biking.

What you are predicting is the waning of mountain biking as people opt instead for a motorized sport.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

kapusta said:


> I knew this was going to happen. Here is some needed background to this thread:
> 
> The OP posted this in *General Discussion* (NOT the eBike forum). Also, the original titlle was "Future of the MTB".
> 
> ...


Not sure what you are talking about with my friends on non-Ebikes. I said when I pass people on MTB and they are walking a climb to steep, I can see the hurt on their face.

It seems you have a reading comprehension as I clearly stated Ebikes comes pretty close to the same fitness you get on an MTB. You do lose some leg power if you are looking to be in top MTB shape. But most people are not and are just looking for fun and exercise. I believe I said that a few post above the one you quoted me on.

When I do ride with my non-ebike friends I don't expect it to be a hard ride. But when I ride with my emtb friends then all our HR are close to pegged and when the ride is up, we are beat!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rockymountaindude (Jun 9, 2021)

kapusta said:


> No, what you are predicting is not the future of mountain biking.
> 
> What you are predicting is the waning of mountain biking as people opt instead for a motorized sport.


It can still be mountain biking with pedal assist. The problem is people confound a motorized vehicle with eBikes.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

kapusta said:


> No, what you are predicting is not the future of mountain biking.
> 
> What you are predicting is the waning of mountain biking as people opt instead for a motorized sport.


I prefer pedal assist, but I respect your opinion.

If it weren't for all this Covid parts shortage, I bet there would be so many more Ebikes on the trails now! There are so many good Ebikes to pick from, but not many in stock. Just about every brand out there sees the ebike future including Yeti. I bet the other brands out there have their ebike test mules running and are waiting for parts so they can launch their Ebikes.

I'd put money on you having an ebike in a few years or less. All it takes is one person in your group to get one and the rest will follow. And I bet you know exactly what I'm talking about!

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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rockymountaindude said:


> It can still be mountain biking with pedal assist. The problem is people confound a motorized vehicle with eBikes.


Yeah, the problem is people know when they are being gaslighted by someone telling them that a bike with a motor is not a motorized bike.


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

Perhaps some of us enjoy the suffering and our bikes being usable for the rest of our life and not just the life of a battery


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Squirrel in the Spokes said:


> Perhaps some of us enjoy the suffering and our bikes being usable for the rest of our life and not just the life of a battery


Nothing wrong with that

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> I prefer pedal assist, but I respect your opinion.
> 
> If it weren't for all this Covid parts shortage, I bet there would be so many more Ebikes on the trails now! There are so many good Ebikes to pick from, but not many in stock. Just about every brand out there sees the ebike future including Yeti. I bet the other brands out there have their ebike test mules running and are waiting for parts so they can launch their Ebikes.
> 
> ...


Oh, I'm already planning on getting an eBike. I think they are a fantastic for a lot of transportation and utility purposes, and as a car alternative in many cases.

But if you are talking about an eMTB.... What timeline are you thinking? And how much you willing to bet?

As far as how popular eBikes will get? Sure, they will sell boatloads.

Look, I get it. Motors are fun. I've ridden eBikes. They are fun. So are motorcycles, electric scooters and one-wheelers. Ebikes are a great way to get more people into a motorized sport by letting them ride places they were previously not allowed to. I have no doubt that they have a big future. Motorized vehicles have been more desirable than bicycles to most people for the past 100 years.


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

kapusta said:


> Yeah, the problem is people know when they are being gaslighted by someone telling them that a bike with a motor is not a motorized bike.


Speaking of gaslighting.... You're basically saying that two of the three items in these charts are so similar, they're basically the same thing and should have the same rules applied to them. The third thing is so different from the other two, it should have special rules applied to it. I agree with you 100%.










Err, wait a minute...you're trying to say which is thing is not like the other two?


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## Silent Drone (Jun 7, 2013)

Obviously the future of this sport is self driving electric bikes. Just put your destination and ride preferences into the onboard computer and it will calculate the optimum ride, and then sit back while the bike does everything for you. Engage the ludicrous rad mode and it will even do sick whips for you that your camera drone can video for your social media feed. And you can even catch up on some emails, or post on these forums, while the bike shreds up and down the trail for you. It’s gonna be sick. I can’t wait.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> I'd put money on you having an ebike in a few years or less. All it takes is one person in your group to get one and the rest will follow. And I bet you know exactly what I'm talking about!


It's already happened, those friends who have bought e-bikes have left the riding group. There is no sense for them to cruise around while the rest slog their guts out for 20km. They can do 40km rides instead.

What I'm curious about is that I fly away to ride several times a year to ride, what do you do with batteries? We aren't allowed to take over a certain size on domestic flights. I know this mainly because I have an electric trundler for golf and couldn't fly to a tournament with it. 
Our domestic limit is 160Wh.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Jon A said:


> Speaking of gaslighting.... You're basically saying that two of the three items in these charts are so similar, they're basically the same thing and should have the same rules applied to them. The third thing is so different from the other two, it should have special rules applied to it. I agree with you 100%.
> 
> View attachment 1948848
> 
> ...


 First of all, I am not the one who is now debating access issues, you are. I simply stated a fact that they are being allowed into a lot of places.

But let's take a look at your graphs, anyway.

For one thing, the second graph is flat out wrong, because there should not even be a bar for mtbs because their power output is a null value. It is a nonsensical measurement for a bike. Its like measuring the airspeed of the color red. So that does in fact make the MTB the outlier. It does not even have a power output to measure.

And as far as the first graph... if eMTBS are only a small percentage faster, then why are all these people talking about covering twice the mileage with eMTBs for the same time and effort?

But what I do get from the point you are making is that you think dirt bikes with limiters on them (which could make the first two graphs much closer) should be treated like MTBs?


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

I hope they become more reliable AND more serviceable. Otherwise they will continue to become yet another (stationery) monument to progress… 

Anyone want a secondhand ebike with a flogged motor and worn battery? No one?


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

kapusta said:


> For one thing, the second graph is flat out wrong, because there should not even be a bar for mtbs because their power output is a null value.


So you can coast up hill? Gotta teach me how to do that. Feel free to mentally adjust your max rider power to the correct level for you in that graph. It was also added to the Ebike graph.



kapusta said:


> And as far as the first graph... if eMTBS are only a small percentage faster, then why are all these people talking about covering twice the mileage with eMTBs for the same time and effort?


They're called hills. When you average 3-4 MPH on a manual bike up a hill, that really hurts your average speed. A mere 10-12 MPH on such hills allows you to cover a lot more ground total.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Why can't I stop staring at this dumpster fire?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Jon A said:


> They're called hills. When you average 3-4 MPH on a manual bike up a hill, that really hurts your average speed. A mere 10-12 MPH on such hills allows you to cover a lot more ground total.


Thank you. You just gave one good reason why that first graph does not tell you much. Here is another, on highly technical, steep downhill sections, the gap between all three collapses almost entirely. If we made a bar chart of those speeds, we might conclude there is little difference between an MTB and a KTM 300.

But far more importantly, it does not escape me how the KTM 300 (one of the top performing dirtbikes) was alone picked for comparison. The Honda xr100 that I rode in my teens (it was my friend's loaner bike) had less than 1/5 of that horsepower. Was that not a dirt bike?. There are mini bikes out there with 1/10 of that HP. Are those not dirt bikes?



Jon A said:


> So you can coast up hill? Gotta teach me how to do that. Feel free to mentally adjust your max rider power to the correct level for you in that graph. It was also added to the Ebike graph.


Oh, so we are going to pretend that the rider and the motor are the same thing? Hey pick whatever works best to make the graphs look good, regardless if it makes sense. OK fine, let's entertain that. AFAIK, Class 3 are limited to 750-1000w in most states. A PRO cyclist averages 200-300w over the course of a few hour race (nobody here is a pro cyclist, but I'll be generous). so lets call that 250W. A typical fit cyclist could sustain that for maybe 15-30 minutes. So on an MTB we have 250W, on a 1000W eBike we have 1,250W. That is a five fold difference. Now replace the KTM 300 with the XR100 I mentioned above, and that graph is going to look a lot less convincing.

I should also point out that by sticking all three of those values on the same power graph, it makes the very large relative difference between the MTB and eMTB (which is a key thing to know) hard to see.

Yes, through careful cherry picking of what to show (and how to show it) we can almost hide the the elephant in the room: it is a motorized bike.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

kapusta said:


> And as far as the first graph... if eMTBS are only a small percentage faster, then why are all these people talking about covering twice the mileage with eMTBs for the same time and effort?


I mean I average 6mph on an ebike vs 4mph on a normal bike up my local (steep) hills. But I can go twice as far because I'm using less energy so I don't need to stop for breaks and I get less fatigued throughout the ride.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Good call on moving this


mtbbiker said:


> I prefer pedal assist, but I respect your opinion.
> 
> If it weren't for all this Covid parts shortage, I bet there would be so many more Ebikes on the trails now! There are so many good Ebikes to pick from, but not many in stock. Just about every brand out there sees the ebike future including Yeti. I bet the other brands out there have their ebike test mules running and are waiting for parts so they can launch their Ebikes.
> 
> ...


I don't get why you E bikers keep thinking every mountain biker is going to want a motor. I love climbing. I wouldn't enjoy mountain biking without it. Remove the 100% human powered component of the sport and I would quit. I was climbing 40 pound FR bikes up monster climbs 20 years ago. I love that shi!. Now I'm on a super enduro plastic bike that weighs 29lbs. How much easier do I need to make mountain biking?


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

I love climbing too. That is why I dig riding my Emtb. I can ride trails that have steep, rocky, loose (technical) climbs and it is fun picking and choosing my line, shifting my weight around - and counting my dabs as a personal challenge for next time. Most of these trails are hike-a-bike so you only piss off hikers now?


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Jack7782 said:


> I love climbing too. That is why I dig riding my Emtb. I can ride trails that have steep, rocky, loose (technical) climbs and it is fun picking and choosing my line, shifting my weight around - and counting my dabs as a personal challenge for next time. Most of these trails are hike-a-bike so you only piss off hikers now?


But E bikes change everything about climbing. Because you get so much speed from a single power pedal stroke you end up using that to get up tech sections. I like having to ration my energy strategically. Sometimes I put in a few power pedal strokes to use momentum, other times I low gear ratchet. Low gear ratcheting on an Bike feels like pulsing a throttle. Power pedaling to use momentum feels like cheating. It removes the challenge and physicality I like. As I've said before, if that's your jam fine, but it's not mine. The idea that everybody is going to prefer that style of riding is assuming other riders don't enjoy the nature of climbing 100% under their own power which requires different techniques. Techniques that are fundamental to the sport itself. Motors change the game. Not everyone will be into that which for some reason E bikers don't get? I get what you guys like about E bikes. Why is it so hard to see the other side of the coin?


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

slimat99 said:


> Motors change the game. Not everyone will be into that which for some reason E bikers don't get? I get what you guys like about E bikes. Why is it so hard to see the other side of the coin?


Because we are talking about formerly un-rideable trails that used to be hike-a-bike even for young super-fit riders!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slimat99 said:


> Good call on moving this
> 
> I don't get why you E bikers keep thinking every mountain biker is going to want a motor. I love climbing. I wouldn't enjoy mountain biking without it. Remove the 100% human powered component of the sport and I would quit. I was climbing 40 pound FR bikes up monster climbs 20 years ago. I love that shi!. Now I'm on a super enduro plastic bike that weighs 29lbs. How much easier do I need to make mountain biking?


Buy an ebike. Turn it off and climb your brains out! Maybe that will fulfill your climbing needs. 
I find it very interesting that there are actually more anti ebikers in the ebike forum, than actual ebikers. And, most haven't even ridden one. If y'all don't think the future is electric everything, you need to wake the F up. Maybe electric bicycles aren't for everyone, who cares?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

50% of riders will be on ebikes in the next five years. IMO. Generation change is taking place and that doesn’t mean that they’re lazy or unskilled riders.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Gutch said:


> Maybe electric bicycles aren't for everyone, who cares?


This ^^^.

It's interesting how many mountain bikers don't want me to ride an ebike.

It's just like 35 years ago when I took up mountain biking -- hikers didn't want me to ride a mountain bike.

The backcountry problem children have changed from hikers to mountain bikers.

Interesting...
=sParty


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Can someone please make a chart comparing the horsepower of 2-horse drawn carriage to a model T (or original VW Beetle) to a Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat Redeye so we can claim model Ts/VWs weren't actually cars? After all, they would be way closer to the 2-horse carriage than the Charger.

Not being anti-ebike, just pointing out how ridiculous those charts are.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

RBoardman said:


> I know I'll regret asking, but why do you say that? You don't have to like the category of bike/motorcycle, to acknowledge the sport or racing.
> 
> I want nothing to do with horses or race cars, but I don't think their sports and races are lame.


How easy would it be for people to cheat by hacking the software to allow a little more speed? I guess the way to avoid that would be to make the course technical enough that they wouldn't be hitting top speed where the motor would provide an advantage. Would various ebikes have different acceleration rates? Just wondering about equipment advantages, though that can be true in mtb racing as well.


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

kapusta said:


> Thank you. You just gave one good reason why that first graph does not tell you much. Here is another, on highly technical, steep downhill sections, the gap between all three collapses almost entirely.


Now you're getting it. The largest speed differences in reality between manual bikes and E-Bikes, happens when speeds for both bikes are relatively low. And yet it's the "top speed" than anti-E people drone on and on about "some trails aren't safe at 20 MPH!" "A bike riding 28 MPH on MY trails would be DANGEROUS!!!" Now you're starting to get how stupid those arguments are--the reality of speed differences on the trail have very little to do with the top speed limit--the highest speeds for each bike on many trails will be very similar for both--while going downhill, often when the motor isn't being used at all.

Going fast on flat ground takes lots of power. The 50, 60, 70 MPH blasts a dirt bike can make over flat ground puts it in a whole different world. Ebikes can't do that.


> But far more importantly, it does not escape me how the KTM 300 (one of the top performing dirtbikes) was alone picked for comparison.


I know nothing about dirt bikes. I simply picked one of the highest rated, most often recommended bikes from the dirtbike sites as a representative example of what you could expect to see (and ride with) on a "motorized vehicle" trail. Which trails are there that will allow your XR100 but won't allow the KTM 300?



> Hey pick whatever works best to make the graphs look good, regardless if it makes sense.


If I wanted to make the chart look good, I would have picked one of the high end EMTB's which are lighter, rated at 250W nominal and limited to 20 MPH. I was purposely as hard on the Ebike as possible by picking a heavy, full power bike, using peak watts instead of nominal rating, adding some rider power on top of that and picking Class 3 with a 28 MPH limit even though many, many trails are/will be limited to Class 1 at 20 MPH. If I wanted to skew the chart, it would have been easy.


> I should also point out that by sticking all three of those values on the same power graph, it makes the very large relative difference between the MTB and eMTB (which is a key thing to know) hard to see.


Now you're getting it. It is hard to see. Because it's very, very, small relative to what's allowed on "motorized vehicle" trails. If you're saying Ebikes are "motorized vehicles" and should be on those trails, you need to be honest enough to compare them with the motorized vehicles they'd be sharing the trails with.

I really doubt dirtbike riders who enjoy 50MPH blasts across straight/flat sections enjoy encountering a group of clods on Ebikes chugging along at 20 MPH blocking the trail, ruining their ride. I sure wouldn't. Doesn't sound very "safe" either.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Can you take your ebike on a plane in the US?


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Gutch said:


> 50% of riders will be on ebikes in the next five years. IMO. Generation change is taking place and that doesn't mean that they're lazy or unskilled riders.


Even the US military has had to dial back basic training standards to accommodate the lazy and unskilled due to this "generational change" of which you seem to be happy to be a part of.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

1980s hiker: "Mountain bikes don't belong on trails! They cause erosion, overuse and endanger other trail users! Ban them!"

Today’s mountain biker: "Ebikes don't belong on trails! They cause erosion, overuse and endanger other trail users! Ban them!

I looked "hypocrite" up in the dictionary, where I found a picture of an egocentric mountain biker who doesn’t seem to know his sport’s history.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Sparticus said:


> 1980s hiker: "Mountain bikes don't belong on trails! They cause erosion, overuse and endanger other trail users! Ban them!"
> 
> Today's mountain biker: "Ebikes don't belong on trails! They cause erosion, overuse and endanger other trail users! Ban them!
> 
> I looked "hypocrite" up in the dictionary, where I found a picture of an egocentric mountain biker who doesn't seem to know his sport's history.


And they're both right.

The question is do you want to share what have been traditionally non-motorized trails with this?


https://m.pinkbike.com/news/field-test-2022-norco-range-vlt-the-power-wagon.html



That's a mountain biking review site featuring a "bike" that literally throws roost in the video.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Jack7782 said:


> Because we are talking about formerly un-rideable trails that used to be hike-a-bike even for young super-fit riders!


Where I live there are hike a bikes no e bike can climb, but I hear you. For me if I can't do it with my legs lungs and tech skills, I'm fine with shouldering the bike. I'll go ahead and bail out of this now that this thread has moved to the E bike forum. I don't belong here. You won't see me here again unless a thread starts in the mountain bike forum and moves to the motorbike forum.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Gutch said:


> Buy an ebike. Turn it off and climb your brains out! Maybe that will fulfill your climbing needs.
> I find it very interesting that there are actually more anti ebikers in the ebike forum, than actual ebikers. And, most haven't even ridden one. If y'all don't think the future is electric everything, you need to wake the F up. Maybe electric bicycles aren't for everyone, who cares?


I'll just tape a bowling ball to my down tube and spend the 10K I saved on bike trips. You must have missed how this thread started in the mountain bike forum and was supposed to be about what mountain bikes will look like in 10 years. You won't see me here again unless something starts in the MTB forum and moves to the motorbike forum.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I looked up "straw man argument" in the dictionary, and there was a picture of Spartacus.
> 
> Oops, spell check won't even let me spell Spartacus incorrectly....


Quoted for evidence & reported.
Let's keep this from getting personal, shall we?
=sParty


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Wow.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I looked up "straw man argument" in the dictionary, and there was a picture of Spartacus.
> 
> Oops, spell check won't even let me spell Spartacus incorrectly....


I have no problems with Spartacus, Gutch, Fos'l and some of the other ebikers (or part time ebikers), they are all 100% honest about what ebikes are and what they aren't. It's the ones that claim emtbs are just the evolution of mountain bikes and pay no attention to the motor behind the curtain types I have problems with.

Probably the biggest mistake people make on this site, not just about ebikes but lots of things, is that they assume the situation, trails, etc. that they experience are the same everywhere else.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ok, not limited to ebikes but…

Chase drone that carries all of your gear (spare tube, pump/CO2, snack, tools, etc) while also filming. Hmm, maybe even a spare battery for your ebike?

Actually, I hope this doesn't come about.


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

A feature where the motor moves your feet for you


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Even the US military has had to dial back basic training standards to accommodate the lazy and unskilled due to this "generational change" of which you seem to be happy to be a part of.


Yes, I am happy to be part of because I have two lovely children in that generation change. It's life, and life has changes. I would have started them on ebikes if they were available at the time. And that may make ya'll cringe, but they are way more fun than any bike I've ridden my entire life. Btw isn't fun the reason why we ride anything?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> And they're both right.
> 
> The question is do you want to share what have been traditionally non-motorized trails with this?
> 
> ...


What's wrong with roost?!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slimat99 said:


> I'll just tape a bowling ball to my down tube and spend the 10K I saved on bike trips. You must have missed how this thread started in the mountain bike forum and was supposed to be about what mountain bikes will look like in 10 years. You won't see me here again unless something starts in the MTB forum and moves to the motorbike forum.


Nice, don't let the motor kick you in the butt on the way out! Jk! Enjoy whatever moves you.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Unlikely that batteries and motors will get much lighter.

The biggest users of batteries are electric cars and it doesn't seem like there's much progress.

Electric motors have been made for over 100 years in huge volumes and they probably got as efficient as possible. 

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

A slight thread jack, but I wonder if e-bikes become increasingly common, will we see trail builders react? At the moment at the main bike park I ride at (there's no shuttle service) the climbs have all been built to reduce the gradient. But if you have lots of ebikes, you can remove this requirement, create black climbing trails, or trails that are just steeper in general specifically for e-bikes.

I think that would solve the real pain point, and that's the climb where a bike is doing 5kmh and e-bike can do 20kmh, the descents and flats are less of an issue.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Jon A said:


> Now you're getting it. The largest speed differences in reality between manual bikes and E-Bikes, happens when speeds for both bikes are relatively low. And yet it's the "top speed" than anti-E people drone on and on about "some trails aren't safe at 20 MPH!" "A bike riding 28 MPH on MY trails would be DANGEROUS!!!" Now you're starting to get how stupid those arguments are--the reality of speed differences on the trail have very little to do with the top speed limit--the highest speeds for each bike on many trails will be very similar for both--while going downhill, often when the motor isn't being used at all.
> 
> Going fast on flat ground takes lots of power. The 50, 60, 70 MPH blasts a dirt bike can make over flat ground puts it in a whole different world. Ebikes can't do that.


So what?

Yes, an ebike is not as fast as a KTM 300. So? My old diesel VW rabbit had 1/20 the horsepower of an F1 race car. Are you suggesting my Rabbit was not really a motorized vehicle because it was so much slower than an F1? Because that is exactly the logic you are trying to use here for eBikes. My rabbit was a slow motorized 4-wheel vehicle, and an F1 is a fast one. Your eBike is a slow motorized 2-wheeled vehicle. A KTM 300 is a fast one.



Jon A said:


> I know nothing about dirt bikes. I simply picked one of the highest rated, most often recommended bikes from the dirtbike sites as a representative example of what you could expect to see (and ride with) on a "motorized vehicle" trail. *Which trails are there that will allow your XR100 but won't allow the KTM 300? *


None. that's my whole point. YOU are the one who seems to think that lower horsepower motorized bikes should have their own trails free from more powerful ones. You want to start letting XR100s on non-motorized trails?



Jon A said:


> Now you're getting it. It is hard to see. Because it's very, very, small relative to what's allowed on "motorized vehicle" trails.


Sure, I'm getting it. Unfortunately, YOU are not. There should not even BE a bar for for the MTB. But even if one entertains your screwed up logic why there should be, the difference is still 5 fold. To say a 5 fold difference in power is not a hugely significantis simply ludicrous. It is hard to see because you are MAKING it hard to see through cherry picking the dirtbike and employing bad data vis practice.



Jon A said:


> If you're saying Ebikes are "motorized vehicles" and should be on those trails, you need to be honest enough to compare them with the motorized vehicles they'd be sharing the trails with.


Why? Are XR100s (or even less powerful mini-bikes) entitled to non-motorized trail use due to there being much slower than a KTM 300? Should my Diesel Rabbit be considered non-motorized and be allowed on the sidewalk becuase there are Ferraris on the highway? Of course not, that's nonsense. And so is the point you are making for the exact same reason.



Jon A said:


> I really doubt dirtbike riders who enjoy 50MPH blasts across straight/flat sections enjoy encountering a group of clods on Ebikes chugging along at 20 MPH blocking the trail, ruining their ride. I sure wouldn't. Doesn't sound very "safe" either.


 Are you actually suggesting that slower motorized vehicles should be considered non-motorized because the motorized trails are too dangerous for them? OMG that is priceless.

Can you point me to all the complaints you are hearing from dirt bikers have about eMTBs? I'd like to see this.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

I know I shouldn't look at this thread because it's just going to be a train wreck, but I can't help it. It's kinda like being a Jets fan.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

WHALENARD said:


> And they're both right.
> 
> The question is do you want to share what have been traditionally non-motorized trails with this?
> 
> ...


Complete hyperbole. If you call that roosting then every single rider that has ever gone up a steep hill on every single bike is capable of and consistently does "roosting".


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## TanMan (Aug 31, 2014)

nilswalk said:


> I know I shouldn't look at this thread because it's just going to be a train wreck, but I can't help it. It's kinda like being a Jets fan.


I know. Can't we all just get along? E-bikes, Full squish, HT, HT SS, Fat, Mid Fat, Full rigid (these guys are true beasts but I digress) etc. To me, these are all mountain bikes but with different flavors.

Everybody just calm down and get some perspective. Because the real enemies here are the gravel bikes!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

WHALENARD said:


> The question is do you want to share what have been traditionally non-motorized trails with this?
> 
> 
> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/field-test-2022-norco-range-vlt-the-power-wagon.html
> ...


You're joking, right? You did notice the rider wasn't pedaling, at the time? You do know what "pedal assist" means? The monster motor (actually a quite weak 250W unit) in that bike was outputting zero watts at the time. Do you know what a "roost" is? You generally don't see people pedaling while doing one....


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## Jon A (Jan 4, 2021)

kapusta said:


> Should my Diesel Rabbit be considered non-motorized and be allowed on the sidewalk becuase there are Ferraris on the highway? Of course not, that's nonsense. And so is the point you are making for the exact same reason.


Oh, the logical leaps, quite entertaining for a while, and yet get boring quite quickly.

I dipped my toe in this thread to try and get an understanding of why the anti-E people (who ride MTB, people who don't ride bikes at all are a whole other story) were so anti-E. Hoping they may point out some legitimate issues that worry them that would make me ponder and could be investigated and discussed. Unfortunately I'm still waiting, so let's try this again.

I'm a data driven person and frankly don't care much for doing things for semantic reasons--the "definition" of "motorized" in your own mind which matters to only you. I want to know why it matters in real world impacts that can be measured.


kapusta said:


> to say a 5 fold difference in power is not a hugely significantis simply ludicrous.


How? Why? Please explain its significance. Why does it matter to you? 5 times zero is still zero. 5 times a small number is still a very small number. Explain the real world impacts that you are worried about. I can think of a few so I'll help you out:

Safety: I'm sure some are legitimately concerned about this. Though as we discussed above, the actual top speed differences aren't going to be huge, but if this is your concern make your case. If you think bikes riding up hills at a slow jogging speed instead of a slow walking speed is a real safety hazard, make your case for that. I've heard of several studies being done on the subject and don't think any have found much data to support it, but maybe you know of some that I don't. If so, please present them. This sort of reminds me of when skiers didn't want snow boarders on "their mountain" because they would be "dangerous" a couple decades ago. If there's more to this, let's hear it.

Trail Damage: Is this your concern? If so, just say that. The Forest Service and other groups have done quite a few studies on this and as far as I know haven't found much of a measurable difference, but if you know of other data, please present it. We can discuss it. I saw a Forest Service expert testifying in a hearing recently, describing the differences in design, maintenance, etc, between motorized vehicle and non-motorized vehicle trails and there are very real differences. When asked about E-bikes he basically said none of the "motorized" aspects really applied as their needs/impact was so similar to regular bicycles. But if this is your concern and you have other data, let's hear it.

Barrier of Entry: I think this is probably a pretty common reason people are anti-Ebike, whether they'll admit it or not. If Ebikes are allowed on a trail, a lot more people will use the trail and that might make it less fun for you. I'm not passing judgement, saying that's right or wrong, it's a very natural human feeling for people to have. But if that's the only reason one has, be honest about it and let's discuss. Over use can cause real problems, so what are the real solutions? Maybe higher fees so the money could be spent on more trail maintenance? I don't know, I'm open to suggestions. But at least this is a real reason to object.

So if it's none of those, what is it? I hope you wouldn't suggest public policy which affects other people be made on your semantic idea of what a "motorized vehicle" is or isn't if you can't point to a single real-world impact that is measurable as a reason for your objection.

To get an idea where I'm coming from, somebody above said E-Bikes "Don't belong in the Back Country." Well, OK. I've met a whole lot of people "in the backcountry." And most of them say no bicycles--of any sort--belong there. If you want to go to the "backcountry," be a real man and walk or ride your horse like we've been doing on this trail for 100 years. Damn Yuppies.

These people will be very difficult to convince to agree with access for any type of bike. And they do have some very legitimate reasons for it, and some not so legitimate. This is why I see this squabbling between "bike people" over minutia very silly--or at least it would be if it wasn't so self-destructive. It gives a lot of ammo hikers and horse people can point to in order to reinforce their arguments. I don't think the MTB people realize when they make silly or specious arguments against Ebikes, those very same arguments can and will be used against _them._


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## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

Jon A said:


> Oh, the logical leaps, quite entertaining for a while, and yet get boring quite quickly.
> 
> I dipped my toe in this thread to try and get an understanding of why the anti-E people (who ride MTB, people who don't ride bikes at all are a whole other story) were so anti-E. Hoping they may point out some legitimate issues that worry them that would make me ponder and could be investigated and discussed. Unfortunately I'm still waiting, so let's try this again.
> 
> ...


The answer to all the above is-
Semantics. 
They can't really argue any real, practical reasons why they are so full of anti e- bike rage, so they
usually resort to arguing about the difference between e and non-e. The MOTOR.
Yes, goddammit anti boyz, we all know about the frickin MOTOR. 
And then, usually what happens when you admit the obvious, and go to the REAL elephant in the room-yes or no to trail access for e-bikes- they , and often the moderator, jump in and start waving their arms about
that is not the subject of this thread. KEEP IT TO SEMANTICS BOYZ!!


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

downcountry said:


> Yes, goddammit anti boyz, we all know about the frickin MOTOR.


Well, it's about time!


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## durask (Nov 16, 2020)

Very good first post. In addition I predict:

1. Always-on ebikes - meaning ebikes that will not work without an always-on internet connection. 
2. Like software, you will not own ebikes but will purchase "license to use" as such license will not be transferrable if you decided to sell it.
3. Monthly ebike use fee (see #1 and #2).
4. Built in integrated screen will show you a serious injury or death disclaimer every time you start riding that you will have to digitally acknowledge. Similar disclaimer will also pop up if you ride too fast or down too much of an incline or corner too aggressively (arbitrarily decided by the manufacturer).
5. Data collected on your bike riding habits will be used to deny warranty services on the basis of " overly aggressive riding".


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Jack7782 said:


> I love climbing too. That is why I dig riding my Emtb. I can ride trails that have steep, rocky, loose (technical) climbs and it is fun picking and choosing my line, shifting my weight around - and counting my dabs as a personal challenge for next time. Most of these trails are hike-a-bike so you only piss off hikers now?


I don't think you understand "climbing". Ebiking up a hill is to climbing, as walking up a running escalator is to mountain climbing.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

durask said:


> Very good first post. In addition I predict:
> 
> 1. Always-on ebikes - meaning ebikes that will not work without an always-on internet connection.
> 2. Like software, you will not own ebikes but will purchase "license to use" as such license will not be transferrable if you decided to sell it.
> ...


Will they shift to a free-with-ads model too? If so, what will the ads be?

Another prediction: Similar to the swat opening on the downtube of spec bikes, e-bikes will have a mini-fridge compartment for a beer.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

...one more:

Future eMtb drivers will re-write the history of mountain biking and claim that early pioneers of the sport always had motors in mind when fighting for access to trails.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Yawn ...


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## durask (Nov 16, 2020)

Tesla will pioneer a self driving E-MTB. Always wanted to bomb down that black trail but too afraid? Well, tap on that disclaimer and off you go...


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

chazpat said:


> How easy would it be for people to cheat by hacking the software to allow a little more speed? I guess the way to avoid that would be to make the course technical enough that they wouldn't be hitting top speed where the motor would provide an advantage. Would various ebikes have different acceleration rates? Just wondering about equipment advantages, though that can be true in mtb racing as well.


People are racing DH on factory teams on a Giant Glory frame that was released in 2015. There is no way that bike still compares to what Specialized, Trek, Commencal team riders are on. Even a sport like F1 the cars are noticeably faster on the top teams.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Mudguard said:


> A slight thread jack, but I wonder if e-bikes become increasingly common, will we see trail builders react? At the moment at the main bike park I ride at (there's no shuttle service) the climbs have all been built to reduce the gradient. But if you have lots of ebikes, you can remove this requirement, create black climbing trails, or trails that are just steeper in general specifically for e-bikes.
> 
> I think that would solve the real pain point, and that's the climb where a bike is doing 5kmh and e-bike can do 20kmh, the descents and flats are less of an issue.


Yes, Kanuga Bike Park in Hendersonville,NC is basicially an ebike shuttle park. Owned by Neko Mulally. 2 choices to climb up the 500 feet of elevation: 1.5 mile single track or a .5 mile double track road. Once at the top you have 7 trails to choose to go down. 1 green,2 intermediate,2 black diamond,& 2 double black.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Jon A said:


> Oh, the logical leaps, quite entertaining for a while, and yet get boring quite quickly.
> 
> I dipped my toe in this thread to try and get an understanding of why the anti-E people (who ride MTB, people who don't ride bikes at all are a whole other story) were so anti-E. Hoping they may point out some legitimate issues that worry them that would make me ponder and could be investigated and discussed. Unfortunately I'm still waiting, so let's try this again.
> 
> ...


I decided a while back never to visit the eBike forum and engage in an argument about where eBikes should or should not be allowed. YOU are the one who turned this into that sort of discussion between you and me. Go back and read through our posts. I did not first bring it up, YOU did, and have done so repeatedly with no prompting from me. And furthermore, in your itching for an argument about trail access, you assumed you knew what my views were and assigned them to me. You have been so busy playing out the arguments in your head (like in the post above) to even notice that I have not said that there should be a blanket ban on eMTBs. All I have really said on the matter is that they are motorized and should be acknowledged as such. Everything else has been my pointing out the flaws in your graphs and arguments as to why eMTBs are the same thing as real MTBs, and playing back to you analogies of your own arguments to point out their flaws.

Lets back up, here. This thread was first posted in General, informing us that we would all be riding eBikes in 10 years. Predictably it was not well received. Some of us have stated in this thread (which was NOT started in the eBike forum) that we simply do not want to ride motorized bikes, as they are antithetical to one of the key aspects of what we love about the sport. Our complete disinterest in eBikes was apparently an insult that could not stand for some folks, so you demand that we defend and justify why we feel that way and in the process insist that the presence of a motor is an utterly trivial matter and really changes nothing. Which is utter nonsense. And when we start to give our reasons and debate whether or not it does, you then turn this into a trail access argument. So now my disinterest in motorized bikes somehow became an argument in your mind about me wanting to ban all eMTBs.

Go back and look at our conversation. All the trail access arguments you raise (both for and against) are between you and yourself. You keep throwing up "anti-eBike" arguments that I never even brought up and start arguing with them.

My point that you first jumped on was simply that an eBike is motorized, and to pretend its not is to simply deny the obvious. That I will stand by.

FWIW, I do not think there should be a blanket ban on eBikes. But I also don't think there should be a blanket pass, either. My view is more nuanced than that, but in short comes down to them being a new class that needs to be considered separately from both MTBs and 50hp dirtbikes. But as long as people insist that the motor on an eBike is irrelevant and that they are just like manual MTBs, this discussion is going nowhere.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

If you don't acquiesce completely, you must be against them. There can be no middle ground!


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

A fun-o-meter that makes sure you always having a much fun as possible. If fun starts to drop, the bike will play a little jingle bring the excitement back. If fun continues to drop the bike will transform to cradle you until fun can be had again.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

kapusta said:


> I decided a while back never to visit the eBike forum and engage in an argument about where eBikes should or should not be allowed. YOU are the one who turned this into that sort of discussion between you and me. Go back and read through our posts. I did not first bring it up, YOU did, and have done so repeatedly with no prompting from me. And furthermore, in your itching for an argument about trail access, you assumed you knew what my views were and assigned them to me. You have been so busy playing out the arguments in your head (like in the post above) to even notice that I have not said that there should be a blanket ban on eMTBs. All I have really said on the matter is that they are motorized and should be acknowledged as such. Everything else has been my pointing out the flaws in your graphs and arguments as to why eMTBs are the same thing as real MTBs, and playing back to you analogies of your own arguments to point out their flaws.
> 
> Lets back up, here. This thread was first posted in General, informing us that we would all be riding eBikes in 10 years. Predictably it was not well received. Some of us have stated in this thread (which was NOT started in the eBike forum) that we simply do not want to ride motorized bikes, as they are antithetical to one of the key aspects of what we love about the sport. Our complete disinterest in eBikes was apparently an insult that could not stand for some folks, so you demand that we defend and justify why we feel that way and in the process insist that the presence of a motor is an utterly trivial matter and really changes nothing. Which is utter nonsense. And when we start to give our reasons and debate whether or not it does, you then turn this into a trail access argument. So now my disinterest in motorized bikes somehow became an argument in your mind about me wanting to ban all eMTBs.
> 
> ...


The stealth re-title and change of forum did nobody any favors on this one. Probably would've been better to create a new thread and link to it.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

durask said:


> Very good first post. In addition I predict:
> 
> 1. Always-on ebikes - meaning ebikes that will not work without an always-on internet connection.
> 2. Like software, you will not own ebikes but will purchase "license to use" as such license will not be transferrable if you decided to sell it.
> ...


I can see 4 and 5 happening.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

D. Inoobinati said:


> ...one more:
> 
> Future eMtb drivers will re-write the history of mountain biking and claim that early pioneers of the sport always had motors in mind when fighting for access to trails.


Drivers??


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Mt. Tam 1989? I ripped it. I’m not trying to re - write time, just glad ebikes came along and sparked my interest into continuing to ride. I have zero health issues. Well, take that back. I do enjoy a few adult drinks!


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Gutch said:


> Drivers??


Jockeys.


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## EdWiser (Feb 3, 2021)

Look at this YouTube video of Eurobike this year. 
Tons of eMTB's. Tons of new tech. ABS disc brakes. To make disc brakes actually safe.


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## durask (Nov 16, 2020)

Is there any evidence that current disk brakes are not safe for bicycling?

Granted if you are making electric *motorcycles* and electric *mopeds* then yes it makes sense to put ABS on them.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

EdWiser said:


> ABS disc brakes. To make disc brakes actually safe.


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## Peetey (Jul 14, 2004)

10 years from now, the motorized bicycle market will be going strong. I suggest we immediately stop calling these rolling monsters "E-bikes". Motorized Bicycle is more accurate. This wording allows the general acceptance of them as they work their "foot in the door" in every location that there is good mountain biking via human power. This is the issue folks. They are motorized and are simply the easy button answer to effortless pedaling without the noise of an engine. I have heard here they somehow increase the effort required and you get a better workout. Really? Maybe lifting it off and on the rack on your car requires more effort? 10 years from now the majority of purchasers will be obese. 10 years from now the seats will be transformed into a motorcycle seat. Batteries will be bigger or better for more range. Steel will be the material of choice cause they can be heavy and bulky because the bike requires little or no effort. Cool MTB towns with good trails will try to ban them, but clueless or obese users will be poaching trails that exclude them regularly, no matter the local regulations. Motorized mountain bike makers will scream foul. 10 years from now the "Industry" will push from every conceivable direction to allow them on ALL trails no matter what the regulations state as there is waaaay too much money to leave on the table. Obese or lazy riders will carry additional backup battery packs in their now backpack-sized packs to go even further with less effort and more weight. Pedals will disappear. Foot-pegs are born. Fit riders, falling for the easy-button effect of the motorized thrill of the motor will soon become obese while ignoring their now-unridden fleet of MTB's....this is what it will look like 10 years from now.. 
The OP asked a loaded question to begin with regarding how "good" they would become so we would all fall into the trap of explaining it away, apologizing for them then purchasing one. The big-money players/makers of current high-end mtb's understand the easy-button nature of the market and this is driving them to capitulate and build what "looks" like a mountain bike while attempting to re-define what a "mountain bike"...."Is".. Motorizing it excludes it from entering into an mtb discussion to begin with...IMO.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Jon A said:


> Do you know what a "roost" is?


Aw sorry, mate, wrong vid!





Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Peetey said:


> 10 years from now, the motorized bicycle market will be going strong. I suggest we immediately stop calling these rolling monsters "E-bikes". Motorized Bicycle is more accurate. This wording allows the general acceptance of them as they work their "foot in the door" in every location that there is good mountain biking via human power. This is the issue folks. They are motorized and are simply the easy button answer to effortless pedaling without the noise of an engine. I have heard here they somehow increase the effort required and you get a better workout. Really? Maybe lifting it off and on the rack on your car requires more effort? 10 years from now the majority of purchasers will be obese. 10 years from now the seats will be transformed into a motorcycle seat. Batteries will be bigger or better for more range. Steel will be the material of choice cause they can be heavy and bulky because the bike requires little or no effort. Cool MTB towns with good trails will try to ban them, but clueless or obese users will be poaching trails that exclude them regularly, no matter the local regulations. Motorized mountain bike makers will scream foul. 10 years from now the "Industry" will push from every conceivable direction to allow them on ALL trails no matter what the regulations state as there is waaaay too much money to leave on the table. Obese or lazy riders will carry additional backup battery packs in their now backpack-sized packs to go even further with less effort and more weight. Pedals will disappear. Foot-pegs are born. Fit riders, falling for the easy-button effect of the motorized thrill of the motor will soon become obese while ignoring their now-unridden fleet of MTB's....this is what it will look like 10 years from now..
> The OP asked a loaded question to begin with regarding how "good" they would become so we would all fall into the trap of explaining it away, apologizing for them then purchasing one. The big-money players/makers of current high-end mtb's understand the easy-button nature of the market and this is driving them to capitulate and build what "looks" like a mountain bike while attempting to re-define what a "mountain bike"...."Is".. Motorizing it excludes it from entering into an mtb discussion to begin with...IMO.


I'm obese and lazy, am I not allowed to ride?


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Peetey said:


> This wording allows the general acceptance of them as they work their "foot in the door" in every location that there is good mountain biking via human power. This is the issue folks. They are motorized and are simply the easy button answer to effortless pedaling without the noise of an engine.


"This is the issue folks." Is the issue?? I missed it, I think.

The amount of effort is the issue, perhaps? I don't care if someone is riding with less effort than me. If I did, I would push to ban carbon fiber bikes since they are lighter and require less effort to ride. Carbon fiber riders, following your e-bike logic, are fatter and less fit, than those of us on heavier bikes. And ban people with better shifters or components that ride with less effort and frustration.

They pedal,... it is good. The more options to pedal the better.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Unfortunately the people who have been freaking out the most about global warming are the same nutters who did everything they could to prevent nuclear power. So we are basically screwed. I guess we could shut all the nuke plants down and go back to coal like the Germans. Of course then we will all be paying several times more for electricity like the Germans are now.


Things change...


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

mlx john said:


> Things change...
> View attachment 1949234


Notice the portion of renewables drops severely when the wind does not blow and it is cloudy. Biomass is a euphemism for burning wood. Great! Instead of burning coal, let's burn wood in the form of pellets, and we will get much of Europe's supply of pellets from clearcutting trees in the U.S. This sounds suspiciously like the current administration doing what it can to reduce hydrocarbon production in the U.S. while begging OPEC members to pump more oil.

Meanwhile the nuclear plants will be shut down during 2022, and the coal plants will continue until 2024. What genius decided shutting down nuclear before coal? Of course the coal plants will be switching to biomass. It is not just idiocy. It is a greenwashing scam, and Germany's electricity prices show it.


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## durask (Nov 16, 2020)

Peetey said:


> 10 years from now, the motorized bicycle market will be going strong. I suggest we immediately stop calling these rolling monsters "E-bikes". Motorized Bicycle is more accurate. This wording allows the general acceptance of them as they work their "foot in the door" in every location that there is good mountain biking via human power. This is the issue folks. They are motorized and are simply the easy button answer to effortless pedaling without the noise of an engine. I have heard here they somehow increase the effort required and you get a better workout. Really? Maybe lifting it off and on the rack on your car requires more effort? 10 years from now the majority of purchasers will be obese.


Lazy and obese will buy a bike like that and then ride it on a rail trail once every 3 years.

If you are obese and out of shape and try riding downhill on even a blue track, you are guaranteed to have a nasty fall which may or may not require a medevac. I really don't see out of shape ebikers overtaking anything but the flattest cross country trails.


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## EdWiser (Feb 3, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


>


I know you don't follow professional cycling closely. But there have many crashes this year do to rear wheel lock ups of the disc brakes. Lock a bike going 60 miles an hour down a Moutan road.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

EdWiser said:


> I know you don't follow professional cycling closely. But there have many crashes this year do to rear wheel lock ups of the disc brakes. Lock a bike going 60 miles an hour down a Moutan road.


I don't even know where Moutan is, and you have no idea what you're talking about.









THE CAUSE OF A CRASH - FAKE NEWS WHEN VIDEO PUNDITS GUESS WRONG - Road Bike Action


The post-crash analysis of one YouTube expert reveals the problems with passing a misguided opinion about disc brakes as fact.



roadbikeaction.com


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

This thread is all over the place. Wow


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Biomass is much better from a COs


EdWiser said:


> I know you don't follow professional cycling closely. But there have many crashes this year do to rear wheel lock ups of the disc brakes. Lock a bike going 60 miles an hour down a Moutan road.


I just assumed you were joking.... now I'm not so sure.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

EdWiser said:


> But there have many crashes this year do to rear wheel lock ups of the disc brakes. Lock a bike going 60 miles an hour down a Moutan road.


If you death grip your brake lever at 60 mph, you're going to have a bad time, mmmmk.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> This thread is all over the place. Wow


Must be the disk brakes.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Must be the disk brakes.


If you ride an ebike with the brakes dragging can you still roost?

Maybe that should be a standard feature on ebikes, dragging brakes that can't be adjusted...


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

crank1979 said:


> If you ride an ebike with the brakes dragging can you still roost?
> 
> Maybe that should be a standard feature on ebikes, dragging brakes that can't be adjusted...


SRAM used to make those. Anyone who rode guides in warm weather with the sticky piston issue knows exactly that feeling.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

If anything, this thread has taught me most antagonists to ebike access / use still literally have no clue what riding an ebike is actually like.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

roughster said:


> If anything, this thread has taught me most antagonists to ebike access / use still literally have no clue what riding an ebike is actually like.


So you're saying most avid mountain bikers that participate here who likely ride 3 to 4 days a week over many many years haven't ridden one or encountered them on the trails? Sounds totally plausible.

For me these threads are an exercise in repetitive self-delusion.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

WHALENARD said:


> So you're saying most avid mountain bikers that participate here who likely ride 3 to 4 days a week over many many years haven't ridden one or encountered them on the trails? Sounds totally plausible.
> 
> For me these threads are an exercise in repetitive self-delusion.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Yes, lol. Seeing one doesn't equal understanding what it is like. Riding one in a parking lot doesn't equal understanding of what it is like on a trail. Riding one on a single trail for a limited amount of time doesn't equal understanding what it is like to ride them routinely in diverse environments / trail styles.

For me these threads are an exercise in repetitive self-mandated ignorance.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

roughster said:


> Yes, lol. Seeing one doesn't equal understanding what it is like. Riding one in a parking lot doesn't equal understanding of what it is like on a trail. Riding one on a single trail for a limited amount of time doesn't equal understanding what it is like to ride them routinely in diverse environments / trail styles.
> 
> For me these threads are an exercise in repetitive self-mandated ignorance.


Fair response.
Unfortunately I can't add anything that hasn't already been said ad nauseam.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

Integrated Bluetooth speakers and lights


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## rakerdeal (Oct 28, 2008)

My guess? The future is e-bikes of all kinds dominating.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

The future for ebikes surely has to be gearboxes? I have a feeling why they haven't gone down that route yet. 
But why have 500% range and vulnerable derailleurs when you could tuck it all away? 
The drag becomes a non issue because of the motor, servicing and longevity of pinions and rohloffs is easy and long lasting. 

But I suspect it may be difficult to package, and it would be a decent step away from still looking like a bicycle.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Mudguard said:


> The future for ebikes surely has to be gearboxes? I have a feeling why they haven't gone down that route yet.
> ...
> But I suspect it may be difficult to package, and it would be a decent step away from still looking like a bicycle.


I suspect two different things:

First, it's just such a big (and risky) change to do all at once. Much easier, cheaper, and less risky to make small changes to existing bikes one bit at a time and then iterate and improve gradually.

But the 2nd thing I think is probably closer to the truth - what does it really do for an e-bike? As someone who has smashed an XX1 AXYS derailleur off his Levo I would certainly love it but that seems like a pretty rare problem. And the motors make the gears less important, who really cares about wide range with an e-bike? As long as you're in a gear that's sort of in the ballpark it's good enough. Efficiency? meh who cares. So I feel like MTB company product managers are probably thinking "here's a fairly complex, difficult, and expensive product feature to develop and produce that doesn't really make the bike much better and we'd have to charge a lot more for it."


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Please delete.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

nilswalk said:


> I suspect two different things:
> 
> First, it's just such a big (and risky) change to do all at once. Much easier, cheaper, and less risky to make small changes to existing bikes one bit at a time and then iterate and improve gradually.
> 
> But the 2nd thing I think is probably closer to the truth - what does it really do for an e-bike? As someone who has smashed an XX1 AXYS derailleur off his Levo I would certainly love it but that seems like a pretty rare problem. And the motors make the gears less important, who really cares about wide range with an e-bike? As long as you're in a gear that's sort of in the ballpark it's good enough. Efficiency? meh who cares. So I feel like MTB company product managers are probably thinking "here's a fairly complex, difficult, and expensive product feature to develop and produce that doesn't really make the bike much better and we'd have to charge a lot more for it."


But it does make the bike much better if done correctly. And the big bike companies have definitely tested gearbox ebikes out already. At this time, the gearbox is not efficient enough, and not developed enough to be cleanly integrated.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

RBoardman said:


> But it does make the bike much better if done correctly.


I mean, * I * agree with you that it does. I just wonder if enough other people would care to offset the cost of development and production.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Let's just jump right to the end and have a CVT.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

integrated screen for Android eBike/eBikePlay - never post in the _Does Anyone Get Lost Anymore?_ thread again.

App to set desired heart rate or calorie burn rate, etc and ebike will adjust the pedal assist to accomplish. Just like a treadmill, you can select a course with "hills", i.e., less pedal assist (or even resistance) to do hill-climb intervals on greenway paths.

Lowrider type suspension hydraulics to adjust slackness/steepness.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

How about teaching a young person to ride a bike? ebike or pedal? balance bike or training wheels?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

EKram said:


> How about teaching a young person to ride a bike? ebike or pedal? balance bike or training wheels?


Gyro self-balancing ebike. Gyro effect can be adjusted as brat learns to balance.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

EKram said:


> How about teaching a young person to ride a bike? ebike or pedal? balance bike or training wheels?


E-balance bike






Something weird lately - battery-bikers have been showing up wanting to bring e-bikes on my pumptrack. A couple of the e-scooters, a handful of pedal-assist and a few dudes on Sur Ron X electric dirt bikes.

I'm like, ummm...do you have any idea at all what a pumptrack even is? 
WTF would you bring a motor on one for? Defeats the entire purpose.
And no, you can't.

Then they ask if there's any trails around they can ride. 
Sorry, no again.
🙄


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> E-balance bike
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You own the pump track and surrounding trails? Or just like acting like you do?


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

chazpat said:


> integrated screen for Android eBike/eBikePlay - never post in the _Does Anyone Get Lost Anymore?_ thread again.
> 
> App to set desired heart rate or calorie burn rate, etc and ebike will adjust the pedal assist to accomplish. Just like a treadmill, you can select a course with "hills", i.e., less pedal assist (or even resistance) to do hill-climb intervals on greenway paths.
> 
> Lowrider type suspension hydraulics to adjust slackness/steepness.


Specialized's new TCU is not far off since it already has Bluetooth and gps. Would not be hard to integrate navigation and connect it to a heart rate and power meter.


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## EdWiser (Feb 3, 2021)

Mudguard said:


> The future for ebikes surely has to be gearboxes? I have a feeling why they haven't gone down that route yet.
> But why have 500% range and vulnerable derailleurs when you could tuck it all away?
> The drag becomes a non issue because of the motor, servicing and longevity of pinions and rohloffs is easy and long lasting.
> 
> But I suspect it may be difficult to package, and it would be a decent step away from still looking like a bicycle.


They already make gearbox eMTB's


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

nt


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RBoardman said:


> You own the pump track and surrounding trails? Or just like acting like you do?


Resident-owned and managed recreation land, deeded for residents only, as well as private land.
Track and trails created, built, maintained and managed by me for my neighbors and their guests and friends.
People want to go try to build own tracks in their own towns, they can ride whatever they want there; I'm in charge of what goes on at this one.

Anyone who thinks a motor makes sense on a pumptrack is a moron.

Any other questions?


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Resident-owned and managed recreation land, deeded for residents only, as well as private land.
> Track and trails created, built, maintained and managed by me for my neighbors and their guests and friends.
> People want to go try to build own tracks in their own towns, they can ride whatever they want there; I'm in charge of what goes on at this one.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, you didn't answer his actual question. Do you personally have the official authority to make up the rules of what can and can't be used on the PumpTrack or trails (resident owned)? I would assume it would be the HOA not you personally who makes that decision.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

roughster said:


> Just to be clear, you didn't answer his actual question. Do you personally have the official authority to make up the rules of what can and can't be used on the PumpTrack or trails (resident owned)? I would assume it would be the HOA not you personally who makes that decision.


Just to be clear, you're wrong.
He asked whether I owned the track and trails.



RBoardman said:


> You own the pump track and surrounding trails?


There's no HOA - I would never belong to one of those nightmares.

There's a committee that manages the recreation land; I've been on it since inception and am solely responsible for all aspects of the track,. I share responsibility for the trails on the property with another person. Where they venture on to private land, I follow the wishes of the landowners.

Yes, I have the authority to personally decide what is allowed on it, as well as which non-resident users get a pass as far as access.
So far, everyone who's brought a motorized bike or RC car, etc is someone who isn't technically allowed to be there in the first place.
Same with anyone who's complained about it. Ahem.

You have to ignore a number of very obvious 'No Public Access' signs to reach it and then ignore a number of very obvious 'No Motorized Vehicles' signs as well as common sense to think it's a good place for a motorized vehicle. Like I said, everyone is welcome to go build their own tracks and allow whatever they want. Let me know how yours comes out.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Could I take the battery out of my ebike and then pump it?
=sParty


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> ...
> So far, everyone who's brought a motorized bike or RC car, etc is someone who isn't technically allowed to be there in the first place.
> Same with anyone who's complained about it. Ahem.


Sounds to me like it could get pretty interesting when a resident shows up with an ebike ... and one will eventually. Might want to check your state law to see if ebikes fall under the definition of "motorized vehicles" as that is not the actual legal case in all states. As for my tracks, they are coming out just fine, thanks for asking. Rapidly closing in on 30 miles


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> Resident-owned and managed recreation land, deeded for residents only, as well as private land.
> Track and trails created, built, maintained and managed by me for my neighbors and their guests and friends.
> People want to go try to build own tracks in their own towns, they can ride whatever they want there; I'm in charge of what goes on at this one.
> 
> ...


Ebikes can work on a pump track....Just saying..


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Pump track, eBike.... just two different ways to not have to pedal much.


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

Yeah, riding downhill too!


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm like, ummm...do you have any idea at all what a pumptrack even is?
> WTF would you bring a motor on one for? Defeats the entire purpose.
> And no, you can't.





slapheadmofo said:


> Anyone who thinks a motor makes sense on a pumptrack is a moron.
> 
> Any other questions?


I'd say the primary purpose of a pump track is to have fun, and I think it's definitely possible for a 4 year old kid to have fun on a little electric bike while on a pump track. But what do I know, you're the trail boss.

All forms of scooters should be banned though. Especially if it's a paved pump track. And Sur-Ron's. Hate those.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

RBoardman said:


> I'd say the primary purpose of a pump track is to have fun


pumping.

There are all sorts of things one could have fun on outside their intended purpose, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. For example, one could fill part of the local skate park with water and have an awesome pool party.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RBoardman said:


> I'd say the primary purpose of a pump track is to have fun, and I think it's definitely possible for a 4 year old kid to have fun on a little electric bike while on a pump track. But what do I know, you're the trail boss.
> 
> All forms of scooters should be banned though. Especially if it's a paved pump track. And Sur-Ron's. Hate those.


So 4 year olds can't have fun on scooters?
What if they want to have fun digging holes, kicking lips apart, running around randomly, riding in wet conditions, trying to drive RC cars or running around with Fido while people riding (which some parents think is a good idea too)?
You think those activities are the primary purpose as well? Got any pics of trails or tracks that you've built where you promote those uses?

It's a dirt track, easily the largest and best maintained within a few states (aside from probably Highland Mountain's).
There are a million other places to play with motors, scooters, shovels, dogs, paintball, whatever. This is a place built for a very specific purpose, and motors don't fit.

Truthfully, I've at times not-so-seriously considered requiring smooth tires, as some DJ spots do. Most MTB riders seem to be clueless about how to ride over some bumps without tearing the **** out of them, and I think I've only seen 1 or 2 in many years who actually take the time after riding to fix what they've dug up. I'm sure anyone who thinks they need a motor for a pumptrack is even worse. (FWIW, BMX riders show far, far more appreciation for the work of others, are always the most willing to lend hand, and also as a rule have the best etiquette. Go figure.)

I've taken a few Sur Ron X's for a spin; I would buy one of those before some anemic pedal-assist moped-wannabe any day of the week. Things are a hoot!



roughster said:


> Sounds to me like it could get pretty interesting when a resident shows up with an ebike ... and one will eventually. Might want to check your state law to see if ebikes fall under the definition of "motorized vehicles" as that is not the actual legal case in all states. As for my tracks, they are coming out just fine, thanks for asking. Rapidly closing in on 30 miles


Actually, they have, and no, it won't. It's not public land, as I clearly explained. The rules can be whatever we (I) decide they are.
Besides of course that definition in state law doesn't apply to the vast majority of actual MTB trails (e-bikes are allowed pretty much nowhere in N.E., including state parks).

A 30 mile pumptrack? I call BS.
MTB trails are a completely different animal; they are much easier to build and require far less ongoing maintenance.
I really don't care personally whether people take pedal assist bikes on the ones around here, but motors were an enormous sticking point when getting permission to build them and I for one actually respect the wishes of landowners. The first time some dickhead pulls out that stupid 'but the State Law says...' crap with one of them, the trails will be closed to everyone, guaranteed.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bikeranzin said:


> pumping.
> 
> There are all sorts of things one could have fun on outside their intended purpose, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. For example, one could fill part of the local skate park with water and have an awesome pool party.


ATVS can be really fun on certain MTB trails. 
I'm sure he'd be completely behind that.
🙄


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> Could I take the battery out of my ebike and then pump it?
> =sParty


Yes. If you bribed me with a beer.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yes. If you bribed me with a beer.


Deal. Thanks.

But as much as I defend the ebike here on these forums, I much prefer riding a pedal bike, manual bike, acoustic bike, analog bike, mountain bike or whatever anybody prefers to call the genuine human powered bicycle. I've used my ebike for hauling my BOB trailer full of trail tools and for recovery rides more than anything else. So far, anyway -- I've only had it since February.

I also bought a Canfield Lithium this year (in June) and I've already ridden it at least 5 times as much as the ebike.

Ebiking is fun and there's no question it's a whole 'nuther sport compared to actual human powered mountain biking (I can't understand people who don't get this) but having been an avid cyclist for 50 years, I'm not likely to switch horses in the middle of this stream. As nice as it is to cruise up a 2000' gain without sweating so that I can bomb back down and then do another lap, there are a couple ebike factors I don't like as much compared to the pedal bike. For one, I'm ambivalent about missing the burn from earning the gain. It really could feel like cheating if I chose to look at it that way. This is one of the reasons I choose to look at ebiking as a separate sport from bicycling (which it is). The other thing I'm not keen on is the weight of the thing -- my Trek Rail weighs 54 lbs and let me tell you, when you land a 54# bike it feels like landing a tank, even with great suspension. Not nearly as fun as handling / flying a lighter bicycle.

I digress.

Thanks for the offer to hit your track and if I'm ever out your way (wherever that is), I'd love to hit your pump track (on a pedal bike) and buy you and whoever helps you build / maintain / ride it a beer. 
=sParty


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> So 4 year olds can't have fun on scooters?
> What if they want to have fun digging holes, kicking lips apart, running around randomly, riding in wet conditions, trying to drive RC cars or running around with Fido while people riding (which some parents think is a good idea too)?
> You think those activities are the primary purpose as well? Got any pics of trails or tracks that you've built where you promote those uses?
> 
> ...


Of course 30 miles of trail. My point on the state law is if you are relying on private property signs and they are a residence, that is mute. If you are relying on "motorized vehicle" language it may not apply to ebikes depending on your states definition. Just more of a heads up if you really want to put a stranglehold on everyone to acquiesce to your own personally defined "what is acceptable and what is not".... I am sure you are a cool dude that I'd love to ride with and have some beers with after, but it sure doesn't seem like it from your post.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

roughster said:


> Of course 30 miles of trail. My point on the state law is if you are relying on private property signs and they are a residence, that is mute. If you are relying on "motorized vehicle" language it may not apply to ebikes depending on your states definition. Just more of a heads up if you really want to put a stranglehold on everyone to acquiesce to your own personally defined "what is acceptable and what is not".... I am sure you are a cool dude that I'd love to ride with and have some beers with after, but it sure doesn't seem like it from your post.


The vehicle definition you keep bringing up don't apply outside of areas specifically governed by the state Motor Vehicle Code. The overwhelming majority (if not the entirety) of off road MTB singletrack trails and tracks are not within that purview, as evidenced by the fact that e-bikes are not allowed on those trails in any state parks here.

Trust me, they people in town are more than happy to "acquiesce". The amount of gratitude I get for putting thousands of hours into creating a place for them and their kids to ride (at the town and public's request btw) so far outshadows the possible hurt feelings of some dink of an e-biker who only exists as a figment of your imagination, it's not even funny.

Stop pretending you know anything at all about my local situation. You don't.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> The vehicle definition you keep bringing up don't apply outside of areas specifically governed by the state Motor Vehicle Code. The overwhelming majority (if not the entirety) of off road MTB singletrack trails and tracks are not within that purview, as evidenced by the fact that e-bikes are not allowed on those trails in any state parks here.
> 
> Trust me, they people in town are more than happy to "acquiesce". The amount of gratitude I get for putting thousands of hours into creating a place for them and their kids to ride (at the town and public's request btw) so far outshadows the possible hurt feelings of some dink of an e-biker who only exists as a figment of your imagination, it's not even funny.
> 
> Stop pretending you know anything at all about my local situation. You don't.


Cool story. I don't know your specific local situation and honestly could give a crap less. Thought I'd point out some potential loopholes, but clearly you feel you got it all covered. I'm just thankful you have a spot where you could proudly beat your anti-ebike chest on a thread titled "The Future of ebikes" in an ebike forum...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

roughster said:


> Cool story. I don't know your specific local situation and honestly could give a crap less. Thought I'd point out some potential loopholes, but clearly you feel you got it all covered. I'm just thankful you have a spot where you could proudly beat your anti-ebike chest on a thread titled "The Future of ebikes" in an ebike forum...


I have it all covered. There are no 'loopholes'.

That fact that you don't know what you're talking about doesn't mean I'm "anti-e-bike", it just means you don't know what you're talking about.
There are plenty of places I have zero issues with e-bikes, and that includes many trails where they are not actually legal.
You can easily find countless posts where I come out in support of them, and I'm absolutely sure that you yourself have seen many of them already, but that might mess up the simplistic absolutist take you're going for here and we couldn't have that.

There are plenty of places for e-bikes, as well as other vehicles and recreation of all types. Not every single patch of trail or track in the world is one of them. 
Not so complicated really. 🙄

Part of the future of e-bikes is e-bikers being so annoying and entitled that they alienate other trail users who would have supported them otherwise.
Admit they have motors, stop pretending they're the same thing as bicycles, stop trying to twist clearly stated laws and guidelines into something they're not, go do your own legwork instead of insisting on riding the coat-tails of MTB advocates, and you'll find a lot more support. Or keep crying 'it's the exact same thing, you have to let us go wherever we want" and wonder why so many people don't take e-bikers seriously as a user group.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

This could go on and on, but I'll just invite you to consider re-reading your first relevant post on this thread (yes, I know you posted laughing emoji to the ABS thing):









The Future of the ebikes


You mean people have posted things that aren't totally relevant to the OP's initial post? That's never happened before! What;s this forum coming to? I heard that one time, it happened so much that an entire thread had to be moved and renamed. 😢 .




www.mtbr.com





Your ebike stance from that and this latest response makes it pretty clear where you stand on the topic. I don't think you can really debate your way out of being anti-ebike.


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## Squirrel in the Spokes (Apr 9, 2021)

Wheels attached to the back tire to help you balance!


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

As long as we’re discussing “the future of the ebike,” appropriate places to ride should be part of that future.

Couple months ago my GF & I were riding our ebikes at Alsea Falls, one of western Oregon’s excellent “winch & plummet” bike specific trail systems. The main loop in this system includes a 2000’ gain to the top, followed by a rollicking singletrack roller coasteresque romp back down to the vehicle parking area. It’s one of my favorite places to ride and to practice getting in the air inasmuch as there are dozens of drops & jumps plus a few doubles. We’ve ridden it many times on our HPBs (human powered bikes) so we thought we’d take our ebikes and do multiple laps instead of the (typically) one lap we have the energy to complete on our HPBs.

While climbing, we overtook a couple who were riding HPBs. First we caught the woman, to whom we said hello. She asked, “Are those legal here?”

Yes, ebikes are legal here. Her question got me thinking… what better place for the ebike than a bike-specific, one-way, winch & plummet trail system? These are not multi-use trails, there are no hikers, there is no two-way traffic and the trails — all downhill — are built specifically for bikes. I’d cheerfully turn off my ebike motor at the top if doing so would have made her feel better but it was clear by her posture and attitude that she did not like being passed on the climb.

Even though I was participating in a different sport than she was. She did not want to share — this much was clear.

Once we caught her boyfriend, the attitude got worse. This guy was a STRONG climber. He was determined not to let us get away from him once we passed. I was impressed — his performance reminded me of my racing days. I’d like to think I was as strong at the peak of my ability. Anyway, we did indeed get away if for no other reason that it would be rude to pass someone and then go slower than they were going.

Once we reached the upper junction, my GF & I stopped to discuss route logistics; the couple did likewise but wouldn’t speak to us when we greeted them at the junction.

We never saw them again. Even when the Alsea Falls parking lot is crowded, riders don’t often see one another on the descent — everyone is traveling in the same direction and at a similar speed.

I live within local driving distance of 4 such trail systems (Alsea Falls, Black Rock, Sandy Ridge, Magic Carpet) where ebikes are allowed. If bike specific trail systems like these don’t make sense for ebike riding, then what does? To me, such systems seem like the perfect place for ebike riding. Even more so than XC or multi-user systems.

So my point in this post is to say that perhaps the future of the ebike includes more bike specific, one-way trail systems where everyone that likes to ride in the forest can do so together. I hope so.
=sParty


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

roughster said:


> This could go on and on, but I'll just invite you to consider re-reading your first relevant post on this thread (yes, I know you posted laughing emoji to the ABS thing):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Right. Informing people of the fact that motors (including e-bikes) aren't allowed on particular trails where they actually aren't allowed makes me anti-e-bike.

I tell people they can't let their dog run around on the track.
Does that mean I'm anti-dog?

I don't let the local kids ride ATVs or dirt bikes on the trails.
Does that make me anti-moto, even though I've got a garage full of them?

Am not anti-e-bike, I'm anti-entitled-whiny-e-biker crying victim.
There's a difference.

Try using just the slightest bit of logic instead of letting your e-emotions get the better of you.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> ATVS can be really fun on certain MTB trails.
> I'm sure he'd be completely behind that.
> 🙄


Sure. Bring out the moto to any trails I build and maintain. No issue here.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> So my point in this post is to say that perhaps the future of the ebike includes more bike specific, one-way trail systems where everyone that likes to ride in the forest can do so together. I hope so.
> =sParty


Agree, except I'm not a fan of one-way trail systems myself.
Should be no reason that e-bikers can't control their bikes well enough to co-exist on regular trails.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

slapheadmofo said:


> Should be no reason that e-bikers can't control their bikes well enough to co-exist on regular trails.


Agreed. Meanwhile our terrain out here (Oregon) makes one-way / winch & plummet systems appropriate. We have some really well designed ones. Due to mandatory drops & jumps plus often just the grade itself, climbing would be impossible. So fun!

&#8230;if you're into that kind of thing.
=sParty


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Right. Informing people of the fact that motors (including e-bikes) aren't allowed on particular trails where they actually aren't allowed makes me anti-e-bike.
> 
> I tell people they can't let their dog run around on the track.
> Does that mean I'm anti-dog?
> ...


Like I said. on and on, but yes do please elaborate on _"how informing people of the fact that motors (including e-bikes) aren't allowed on particular trails where they actually aren't"_ is relevant to the OP...

_"*Here is what I think the next generation mountain bike will be, which will be common within 10 years*"_

I'm anti-control freak uptight anal people, but I try not to hold grudges


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

There are really two trail systems locally that allow eBikes. They're also the flatest around. Until that changes, there's literally zero reason for me to even think about one.

So, here, that's pretty relevant.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

You mean people have posted things that aren't totally relevant to the OP's initial post? That's never happened before! What;s this forum coming to?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

roughster said:


> Like I said. on and on, but yes do please elaborate on _"how informing people of the fact that motors (including e-bikes) aren't allowed on particular trails where they actually aren't"_ is relevant to the OP...
> 
> _"*Here is what I think the next generation mountain bike will be, which will be common within 10 years*"_
> 
> I'm anti-control freak uptight anal people, but I try not to hold grudges


As relevant as a number of your own posts, in case you've forgotten.

I'm anti-hypocrite, but...


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> As relevant as a number of your own posts, in case you've forgotten.
> 
> I'm anti-hypocrite, but...


_yawn_ on and on and on


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gasp4Air said:


> You mean people have posted things that aren't totally relevant to the OP's initial post? That's never happened before! What;s this forum coming to?


I heard that one time, it happened so much that an entire thread had to be moved and renamed.

😢
.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

roughster said:


> _yawn_ on and on and on


You're welcome to STFU and/or block me any time.

Or just keep ?.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

This post got put into the ebike section after it got pretty big and now it’s just to big to get back under control. 

Ebikes are going to get more popular in the future! We are going to see a lot of advancements in motors and batteries. At the same time bikes are not going anywhere. 

Locking thread down. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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