# My Broken Unit :(



## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

I was giving my bike the once over this morning, because I'd been continually getting a creaking noise when pedalling. I also had to re-tension the chain because it somehow had a lot more slack than expected after the weekend's rides. I eliminated the chainring bolts as a suspect, still being very tight. Bottom bracket was disassembled and checked. Pedals were fine. Chain was fine. All good there.

And then I found this...





































Straight back to the shop where the issue was handled very professionally. I'll let you know what happens next.


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## Johnny Come Lately (Jul 31, 2007)

Oh bummer. Hope the importer comes to the party.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm quietly confident


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## cowpat (Apr 13, 2008)

Nasty. I'd be very surprised if they don't warranty it. Good thing it didn't break on the OO.


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## Chromo (Oct 6, 2005)

Looks to be a clear cut manufacturing issue and/or material failure. Hopefully you get a speedy warranty resolution.


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## Hud (Jun 22, 2004)

Too much power!
Whose bike were you on when we went past you at the cog?
Hope you can still make it down to Forrest on over Easter.


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## Carver96er (Apr 30, 2009)

A man with a broken UNIT is always a sad affair and with 29 inches you are just so much more vunerable


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## Carver96er (Apr 30, 2009)

...........furthermore (my son hit the submit button a little too eagerly ), if we can offer you some assistance, please let us know:thumbsup:


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Hud, I was on Duncan's Yeti at Cog. Nice fast bike, but the geometry's all wrong for me, and it was a little too big as well.

Mitch offered to let me ride his Jamis SS at Forrest (he's coming down too), so all's good there. Thanks for the offers of assistance fellas, but I think I'll be OK.

Can't imagine that there will be any issue with warranty approval, but it will be interesting to see how long it takes to get a new frame.


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## Hud (Jun 22, 2004)

Great to hear Mitch is coming down, he's never been to Forrest.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

I know. He's been bugging me about it since last year.


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## panarchy (Jan 29, 2008)

Bad luck about that one, or, your new training regime is working far too well... Hope it is resolved quickly and painlessly.


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## nuclear_powered (Apr 18, 2007)

Having twice broken a bike frame and in 4 different places, I can vouch for it being a great reason to have 2 really good bikes in your stable to choose from. The wait for replacement was long, and it felt longer than it was.

Alternatives are to have a friend of equal weight/body proportions who has a fine quiver and is willing to lend, but I prefer my earlier suggestions cos hey ... more bikes.


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## John© (Jan 10, 2008)

Sorry about your probs Steve! Hope you get it sorted quick smart.

Must say I thought that spot on a sliding dropout frame always seemed a weak point to me. I really like the idea of sliding dropouts, but having the axle centre aft of the point where seatstay and chainstay meet seems less than ideal.

Good to hear you'll still get down to Forrest. See you there.


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## wannabeRacer (Feb 9, 2004)

opsie... would you get the same frame or money back and buy something else?


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## waldog (Nov 4, 2005)

Shattering Steve. I have no doubt you'll have a positive outcome from this. All they'll need to do is look at how meticulously you look after the bike and warranty it straight away.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Hopefully I'll get a 2010 model frame, which has a slightly different design for the dropout area. I have been looking after this bike mechanically better than previous ones. I just haven't been keeping it clean.

NP, there are unused frames and bits of bikes in the shed. Maybe now I'll rebuild one for this reason. I may convert the GT Avalanche to 1x9, but it'll take some time due to lack of funds.


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## casnell (Jul 25, 2009)

Bugger ! Obviously too strong for the frame...


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

After some serious deliberation this morning, I've decided that the best thing for me and my riding is to upgrade the GT for a second bike, but keep it single speed. Last night, riding Duncan's Yeti brought back memories of frustration with gears. Changing up instead of down and vice-versa. Wrong gears & broken derailleurs suck. Single speed works for me. Riding is meant to clear my head, not clog it.

So my short term plan is to get a White Industries Eric Eccentric Eno Disc rear hub and matching caliper mount, and fix the front shocks.


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## jathanas (Dec 9, 2009)

Stevob said:


> After some serious deliberation this morning, I've decided that the best thing for me and my riding is to upgrade the GT for a second bike, but keep it single speed. Last night, riding Duncan's Yeti brought back memories of frustration with gears. Changing up instead of down and vice-versa. Wrong gears & broken derailleurs suck. Single speed works for me. Riding is meant to clear my head, not clog it.
> 
> So my short term plan is to get a *White Industries Eric Eccentric Eno Disc rear hub and matching caliper mount*, and fix the front shocks.


Owner of the above mentioned hardware. Tricky to set-up initially but pretty reliable so far.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

yes, I know you've got it, and I envy it.


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## cowpat (Apr 13, 2008)

Magic ratio doesn't work for you Stevob? Tricky to set-up initially but pretty reliable so far.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Believe me I tried, but it's a little prohibitive cost wise buying different chainrings/cogs. I initially tried a chain length calculator, but that didn't work for me, so it was sort of a matter of hit and miss.

Just got a call from the shop, and the frame is getting warrantied and should be picked up this arvo. They have a replacement in stock, but the shop now wants my original receipt, which may take some time to find, if at all.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Update:

I took the whole bike to the importer today, to hurry the case along, and it's being left there overnight to be inspected in the morning by a mechanic. No problem with not finding the receipt now. The plan is to get it approved first thing, then one of the fellas from YVC will pick up the bike and new frame and have it built and ready to ride tomorrow afternoon, fingers crossed.


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## I Like Dirt (Apr 10, 2006)

Stevob said:


> After some serious deliberation this morning, I've decided that the best thing for me and my riding is to upgrade the GT for a second bike, but keep it single speed. Last night, riding Duncan's Yeti brought back memories of frustration with gears. Changing up instead of down and vice-versa. Wrong gears & broken derailleurs suck. Single speed works for me. Riding is meant to clear my head, not clog it.
> 
> So my short term plan is to get a White Industries Eric Eccentric Eno Disc rear hub and matching caliper mount, and fix the front shocks.


Yeah don't make it too complicated because then it will be unreliable :thumbsup: 
Rigid singlespeed - just ride hey Steve

Not a result of the Ridge rd excursion is it?


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

From the creaking noise I was getting from pedalling prior to that ride, I'd suggest that it was already broken, if not seriously cracked.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

The clock is ticking to have the bike ready for tonight's ride. We'll see how it pans out. The shop hasn't got the frame back in yet (an employee is picking it up), so I've told them I can build it back up if they don't have time, but that means I may not have enough time myself.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Got the bike back. Need to do a few adjustments, but riding it tonight.

Huge thanks to the fellas at Yarra Valley Cycles.


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## ilostmypassword (Dec 9, 2006)

Bummer. BUT......great to see such a quick fix!!

This happened to a mates frame in the exact same spot- just a few weeks ago. Clearly Kona have some design issues on these frames....

His was warrantied too.

http://www.derailled.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3414&start=0


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Very interesting Paul. I actually thought (from your blog) you had owned one of these also. This will come in handy when it breaks again. Thanks.

Pics of the bike with the new frame and new bars...




























The bars are bloody awesome. Really changes the handling and increases the comfort, no end. I will need to get a longer stem, as I suspected, because when I stand to pedal, it's too close. Maybe 100 or 110mm stem will fix this. It's ok for seated, perfect for flowing single track or downhill.


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## ilostmypassword (Dec 9, 2006)

Stevob said:


> Very interesting Paul. I actually thought (from your blog) you had owned one of these also. This will come in handy when it breaks again. Thanks.


no worries. the blog shows his bike- he contributed for a while when it was all about mtb's...

nice bars btw. he also rides with them- not carbon though. and swears by them.

happy trails!


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## radiusq (May 24, 2007)

Me too 

As Paul has already mentioned above, my Unit cracked in *exactly* the same way three weeks ago. I'm not happy in discovering that you have had the same problem. I was hoping that it was not a design fault, as obviously that would mean that there's a strong likelihood that it'll reoccur with the replacement frame. Hopefully, it's just a production issue and our bikes may have similar serial numbers....

You did really well to get the bike up and running in two days btw. It'll be 3weeks tomorrow and still no bike for me. In New Zealand things tend to happen a bit slower. I'm expecting to have replacement by next weekend however.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention that the 20" frame I bought came with a 120mm stem - which I felt was initially too long, but feels just about perfect with the Salsa Pro Moto bars. My bars are cut to 640mm, but even still I reckon they pull my hands back at least 20mm. I think the bars work perfect on this bike, and the 17degree back sweep is very comfortable. 

I paired my Salsa bar with some Ergon GP1 grips. They are so comfortable and work really well with the 17degree backsweep of the pro moto bars. The also solved an issue I had with the the outside of my hand going number after an hour or so in the saddle. 

I spent quite a bit of time tweaking with the cockpit of the bike. I found that getting the bars as low as possible by removing any spacers and inverting the stem *massively* improved handling on my 20" frame. The 20" frame does however have a huge head tube though, so it might not be relevant to the setup of your bike which I think is an 18" frame?

Anyway, I really love my bike, apart from the frame cracking it's been a nice bike. The only other issue I've had is keeping the freehub clean has been a pain. The hub itself is fine. I haven't needed to touch it, but the freehub needs a clean out of gunk every 6-7 rides. How has yours been?


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## hifiandmtb (Sep 3, 2007)

Hi Stevo - glad you are back on the trails after such little inconvenience :thumbsup:


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

G'day Hifi. Didn't know you were on here. Thanks mate.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

radiusq said:


> Me too
> 
> As Paul has already mentioned above, my Unit cracked in *exactly* the same way three weeks ago. I'm not happy in discovering that you have had the same problem. I was hoping that it was not a design fault, as obviously that would mean that there's a strong likelihood that it'll reoccur with the replacement frame. Hopefully, it's just a production issue and our bikes may have similar serial numbers....
> 
> ...


You beat me to the punch. I tried to join your forum as well, but I'm still waiting for the mods to activate me.

I had the same issue with the outside of the hands going numb as well. The grips I've got on are Ritchey Ergo foams, but they're only on there because they were cheap ($12.50). Ideally, I'd like to try some ESI chunkys, which our LBS has just started selling.

My bike is a 16", and came with a 100 or 110mm stem, which I had swapped back to 90mm, but with these Salsa bars, I feel like my hands want to sit about 20mm further forward, and a little higher also, so a new stem awaits senate approval. As for the sweep, it's perfect. I did try inverting the stem with the old bars, but it didn't suit me.

The importer is friends with the family that owns the bike shop where I bought my bike, so I was lucky in that respect.

I haven't touched my freehub yet, but it's long overdue. I haven't been confident enough to pull it all apart. I'll probably let the shop do that. It was binding briefly a couple of rides back, but has since loosened up. The front hub on the other hand, is nearly stuffed. The bearings have play even though the adjusters are tightened properly. Any tighter, and it wouldn't spin. It's like the wheel "clicks" from side to side at times.

Good luck with getting your frame replaced soon. Hope you have another bike to ride meanwhile.


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## radiusq (May 24, 2007)

I haven't had any luck finding how to take the formula freehub body apart. It doesn't mount to the hub in a regular way. Instead, I've been following Sheldon Brown's method of cleaning the freehub by getting excessive oil in there to wash the gunk out - http://www.sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html#lube

It's a bit messy, but has done the trick.

I've had no problems with either wheel's hub bearings btw. In fact I've been pretty impressed with how they've stayed clean considering that one of my regular trails is sand based.

I'm hoping that I'll get a 2010 frame as a replacement, but I won't know until I receive it later this week.

I've found some photos of some guys 2010 Unit on flickr -

__
https://flic.kr/p/4132609587
 I don't think the design of the drop outs has changed though, but I like the new colour.

Luckily I have another bike, but a 160mm travel trail bike makes a crap commuter. With a bit of luck I'm expecting to have the Unit up and running in a few days.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

I believe that the design of the dropout changed in that for 2009, there is one long cutout for the sliders to move in, and for 2010, there's two seperate cutouts, one for each bolt. I don't really think that would constitute an improvement over our failure causes though. To aleviate that problem, the thickness of the dropout would need to be altered where it broke.

Thanks for the link. I've tried that before on different bikes, but not this one. I'll try that.


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## greendream (Aug 7, 2006)

hey steve,
glad to see you're back on the trails, hope this frame lasts longer than its' predecessor:thumbsup: 

from a "coloured" friend on "another" forum & fellow kona rider


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

hmmm. A little cryptic, but I'll figure out who you are soon.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Hi Tony.:thumbsup:


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

*9 weeks later...*

It's started to crack in the same spot.

fcukin' p!ssed.

Supposed to race next weekend.


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## MrsH (Aug 16, 2009)

That sucks  Hope you get it sorted in time for Forrest.


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## greendream (Aug 7, 2006)

WTF???
hope it's sorted without any drama.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

me too.


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## casnell (Jul 25, 2009)

That's a bugger ! Do you need to borrow a bike?


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## waldog (Nov 4, 2005)

No way!!!! 

So sorry to hear that Steve, that is really disappointing.

Those bike gods are bastards, i hope it sorts out quickly!!


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## wannabeRacer (Feb 9, 2004)

ops..


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## cowpat (Apr 13, 2008)

You can borrow my singlespeed if your old one is not serviceable right now. Is the Cog ride on Thursday on this week?


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm taking it to the shop today. The response I get will determine whether I need to borrow a bike. What are the chances that it will be replaced as quickly as the last one?


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## waldog (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm sending good vibes your way mate. Provided that a volcano doesn't erupt over here, they should make it to you.

But seriously, crossing fingers for you.


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## ilostmypassword (Dec 9, 2006)

I'd sell the replacement and get another brand. That's a joke.

Hope you can get something sorted for next week.


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## radiusq (May 24, 2007)

There's obviously a definite issue with the 2009 Units. I think this will be number 6 that I'm now aware of to have cracked in the same spot - 1 of which was my own. 

When mine cracked it was replaced with a new 2010 frame - and the 2010 has seen a bit of a redesign at the dropouts. I've only had about 5weeks of use on the new frame, so too early to tell, but if I were you I'd push for a 2010 frame as a replacement.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

I'll be pushing for a 2010 in 18" to make it easier to sell.


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## radiusq (May 24, 2007)

In an ideal world, when your 1st frame broke, the distributor would have known that 2009 models were prone to cracking at this spot and offered you an alternative frame (or 2010 model) as a replacement.

I am just hoping that the issue is indeed fixed in the 2010 frame. All I know is that there has been a bit of re-design in the area, but I can't be certain that the re-design was to specifically fix this issue. I'm happy to ride frame though, the chance of a repeat failure causing injury are virtually nil IMO.


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## Carver96er (Apr 30, 2009)

cowpat said:


> Is the Cog ride on Thursday on this week?


The hardy folk of the 'wooly woods' *ALWAYS* do a Thursday night ride, you should know better!! (unless its cold and wet or anything other than perfect!!) 
But on a more serious note, yes it should be on.:thumbsup: Look forward to seeing you again...........stranger.


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## Carver96er (Apr 30, 2009)

Stevob said:


> It's started to crack in the same spot.
> 
> Supposed to race next weekend.


Bloody hell Steve, this is rediculous. Surely by now they've learn't and should be alerting owners so as not to tarnish the good name of Kona. Hope this has a speedy and happy ending.
There's a 96er with your name on it should the need arise for your race:thumbsup: 
Keep us informed.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks John.

Thanks to everyone for their offers to lend me a bike. I may need one.


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## waldog (Nov 4, 2005)

So... any word from the shop?


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Yeah. "Kona is aware of the problem" so they'll be getting me a 2010 frame, but it won't be in for at least 2 weeks. Now I just have to see if I can switch from 16" to 18".


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## waldog (Nov 4, 2005)

I hope they help you out Steve, very disappointing that such a nice bike has been so troublesome. 

What have you got in your sights?


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

waldog said:


> What have you got in your sights?


A singular Swift. http://www.singularcycles.com/swift.html

But it may have to wait a little while whilst i save the pennies. Looks like the golf clubs will be getting sold. In the meantime, I'll get my GT Avalanche frame modified to add V-brake mounts on the rear, so I can run my old ENO eccentric wheel on it for chain tension.


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## wannabeRacer (Feb 9, 2004)

those Singular bike looks nice, have you look at others? Dont sell that golf clubs, you'll regret it


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## chumbox (Jan 9, 2008)

I'm late chiming in but Steve that's bad news, sorry to hear.

A wise man once told me "If it moves and it shouldn't, Gaffa tape. If it doesn't and it should, WD-40". This may provide the temporary fix you need.

You'll enjoy getting 2010 frame anyhow, or you'll end up with a beautiful Swift. Either way it's win win from here.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

*News Flash*

The boys at Yarra Valley Cycles have once more left me stunned (happily) by their service. The importer has decided to dismantle a fully assembled 2010 bike with an 18" frame and will ship it to YVC tomorrow morning. The boys down there will assemble it when I can get mine down there.

So it looks like I'll be riding my own bike on the weekend.:thumbsup:


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

wannabeRacer said:


> those Singular bike looks nice, have you look at others? Dont sell that golf clubs, you'll regret it


The clubs have been used once in the last two years. They won't be missed.


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## waldog (Nov 4, 2005)

Great news Steve!!!


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## I Like Dirt (Apr 10, 2006)

Stevob said:


> The clubs have been used once in the last two years. They won't be missed.


That's one too many times


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

i agree


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## jazzle (Sep 1, 2008)

radiusq said:


> I am just hoping that the issue is indeed fixed in the 2010 frame. All I know is that there has been a bit of re-design in the area, but I can't be certain that the re-design was to specifically fix this issue. I'm happy to ride frame though, the chance of a repeat failure causing injury are virtually nil IMO.


sorry for hijacking this thread. Just want to see how you're doing with the 2010 frame?? any problem so far??


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

_That's_ not hijacking, _that's_ a relevant question.

Now if you wanted to discuss an epic bush adventure here...well...


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## jazzle (Sep 1, 2008)

haha 

hope the new design would take a much better beating than the old. =D


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

*it's green...*

Got my bike back now. Need to replace the worn bottom bracket (with one I just bought) then have a quick shakedown ride to set it all up and it'll be all go for Forrest on Sunday.

The frame definitely has revised dropouts, being much thicker through the problem area.:thumbsup: Very early to say, but this one looks like a keeper.

The other thing is that even with a blast up the footpath, I noticed the difference in the handling with the change in head tube angle from 70.7 to 72.2 degrees. I'll report back tomorrow after a quick ride.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Oh, and a big thanks to the boys at Yarra Valley Cycles once again for outstanding customer service.


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## radiusq (May 24, 2007)

Stevob said:


> The other thing is that even with a blast up the footpath, I noticed the difference in the handling with the change in head tube angle from 70.7 to 72.2 degrees. I'll report back tomorrow after a quick ride.


....there were no changes in geo between 2009 an d 2010 ...ah, but you went from 16" to 18".... I see.....

Good to hear you got your bike back up and running so quickly btw. You received much better service than I for sure - I had to wait 5weeks for my frame to be replaced (in NZ).

As you can see there have been significant changes in the drop out area. Hopefully that's the problem sorted..... I think you'd have a problem finding a better frame unless you were going to go really spendy. For a rigid 29er the frame has the perfect amount of flex IMO. I also really like the geo - it's like a knife through fast singletrack.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

What size is your frame? By the way, I also noticed that the seat stays are now straight, instead of having the "s" bend in them. Maybe the flex in these contributed to the cracking?

I really like the dark metallic green, and the understated graphics as well. Also, with the change in size, the head tube is longer, and I no longer need spacers below the stem. Looks cleaner.

I'm glad it looks like Kona have the problem sorted, because I really couldn't afford to replace the frame with something better. I always wanted the 2010 Unit, but it was at least $300 more at the time.


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## John© (Jan 10, 2008)

Pics, Steve! What are you waiting for?? We need pics!


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

blardy 'ell Johnno...two seconds please...


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

*Old vs New*

Ok, here's some poor quality low light pics to compare the 2 frames...


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## panarchy (Jan 29, 2008)

I Like Dirt said:


> That's one too many times


All golf courses should be converted to BMX tracks or 4x tracks or something useful like that!

Steve - the green meanie (or green goblin?) looks pretty special. Fingers crossed it lasts. :thumbsup: What's with the 16" sticker? Is it a 16 or 18"?


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

nah, there's photos of the old frame to compare to the new frame. The one's with the 16" sticker are from last november.


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## jazzle (Sep 1, 2008)

Hey stevob, nice to know u got the new frame back in time 

Just wondering how tall u are in centimetres? I may just get the same bike as it's too much hassle to get a monocog


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks jazzle, I'm 169cm. The choice depends on the budget, but the standard 2010 Units are better equipped than the 2009 Units. Also look at the Haro Mary, which is around the same price but has a sturdier (albeit slightly heavier) build to it. Other suggestions are Surly Karate Monkey, and Voodoo Dambala.


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## radiusq (May 24, 2007)

Stevob said:


> What size is your frame? By the way, I also noticed that the seat stays are now straight, instead of having the "s" bend in them. Maybe the flex in these contributed to the cracking?
> 
> I really like the dark metallic green, and the understated graphics as well. Also, with the change in size, the head tube is longer, and I no longer need spacers below the stem. Looks cleaner.


The new colour has grown on me. I wasn't overly fussed before, but in hindsight I do think the graphics on the black 2009 were a bit ugly.



Stevob said:


> I'm glad it looks like Kona have the problem sorted, because I really couldn't afford to replace the frame with something better. I always wanted the 2010 Unit, but it was at least $300 more at the time.


It sounds like you kind of got $300 off the price of a 2010 to me. OK... BB5 brakes instead of BB7s too, but still ...

My frame is a 20". Photo attached. We went with similar handle bars btw. I've got Salsa Pro Motos too (although alu version).

Do you prefer the steeper head tube on your 18" frame?


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

radiusq said:


> The new colour has grown on me. I wasn't overly fussed before, but in hindsight I do think the graphics on the black 2009 were a bit ugly.
> 
> It sounds like you kind of got $300 off the price of a 2010 to me. OK... BB5 brakes instead of BB7s too, but still ...
> 
> ...


I upgraded the front brake to a BB7 the day after I bought it last year. I'll do the rear when funds permit, but it'll do for now.

I've only had one big ride on it so far, but it was perfect in very slippery conditions. Some corners I expected it to slide at the front and it didn't, so very happy with the steeper head angle. I also finished the ride without a sore back, which was great.

You should see my new frame now. Even after a good clean, it looks nothing like new. Wore the paint off the chain stays with my heels, chipped & scratched the top tube when the top-tube bracket on the towbar mount worked loose on the drive home and heaps of scratches from the bike pump.

But I'm still very happy.

edit to add...That's one freakin' tall gear you're pushin' there.


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## radiusq (May 24, 2007)

Stevob said:


> I upgraded the front brake to a BB7 the day after I bought it last year. I'll do the rear when funds permit, but it'll do for now.
> 
> I've only had one big ride on it so far, but it was perfect in very slippery conditions. Some corners I expected it to slide at the front and it didn't, so very happy with the steeper head angle. I also finished the ride without a sore back, which was great.
> 
> ...


It sounds like the 18" might have been the correct sizing for you all along 

I've had about 10 rides on the new frame and have yet to chip the paint job. Maybe I'm not trying hard enough 

I'm running 42:19, *but* my local winter rides are almost completely flat, as is my commute to work. There is no way I'd consider taking that gearing up on proper hills! It would kill me! [email protected]~90RPM!

edit: One thing I noticed BTW, is that your frame doesn't have the lock nuts on the slider bolts. When the mechanics built my bike up, they didn't install them either and told me that the hadn't arrived with the new frame. I thought it might have been a mistake so got them to install the locknuts off the old frame. Hmm.... I wonder if it could be a contributing factor in the cracking of old frame..... I did have a bit of torque in the lock nut as I thought maybe the horizonta bolt was used to keep the slider from moving backwards. Perhaps the whole point of the bolt is to aid initial adjustment only and hence the lock nut is not required. I have barely torqued them on the new frame due to the new bolt hardware looking so burly.


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## ilostmypassword (Dec 9, 2006)

Spencer..you know my thoughts on this


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

At the time I bought the bike, no-one had an 18" for me to test ride and the 16" I rode felt fine with the 90mm stem and stock bars. I changed the bars to the Salsa's which shortened the ETT. It was rideable, butI never felt comfortable when standing and climbing, so I was lucky when the shop and importer said it would be no issue to change the size.

Interesting point about the locknuts. I doubt it's influence though, as the crack was below the thread. I tend to think that the seat stays were too flexible vertically, which would have weakened the dropout. The elimination of the lock nuts was probably just a precaution. In short, the design was flawed. Let's hope Kona solved the issue. I'm sick of having second thoughts about the frame lasting long enough for me to save the pennies to replace it with something better.


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## cowpat (Apr 13, 2008)

Stevob said:


> the design was flawed


I agree. The Kona Unit puts the rear axle well behind the junction of the seatstay and the chainstay. Upwards force on the rear axle would tend to try to rotate the dropouts with respect to the stays and put other than tension and compression forces on them and the joints/dropouts. This might be ok for a track bike/fixie but this is a mountain bike. The strength of the "two triangles" bicycle design is in keeping the forces in line with the tubes wherever possible. Mountain bike frames with big dropouts seem to have the rear axle either below or very close to the junction of the stays in such a way that upwards forces are translated into tension and compression. It doesn't help that the original model has what looks like cast steel dropouts with sharp 90 degree surfaces where the thickness changes. The new dropouts look much better but they're probably still Chinese cast steel items and the issue with the rearward axle remains. I expect the designers' intended use of the bike doesn't extend to the sort of punishment you're meting out.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Sounds better when an engineer says it.

The two bikes compared...









vs








note the heel rub!

Keep in mind that the gearing was changed in the second shot, bringing the rear wheel closer in. There doesn't appear to have been any redesign of the aluminium sliders themselves, other than to relocate the rearward bolt. In the older frame, I could tell that the relieved sections were actually machined, rather than stamped. The new one is harder to tell, but I'd say it's machined.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

spewin' it's raining today, because I feel like havin' a lazy spin.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

cowpat said:


> I expect the designers' intended use of the bike doesn't extend to the sort of punishment you're meting out.


C'mon now I'm just a little fella.


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## cowpat (Apr 13, 2008)

Doesn't look so bad with the axle all the way in. Plus on the new design it looks like the bolts are further apart and the slot they ride in has been split into two shorter slots so that the torque on the sliders won't try and split the slot apart.

Bet this wouldn't last if used as a mountain bike: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features...-handmade-bicycle-show-2010-part-three/108430



Stevob said:


> Sounds better when an engineer says it.


I'm not a mechanical engineer though.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

cowpat said:


> Bet this wouldn't last if used as a mountain bike: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features...-handmade-bicycle-show-2010-part-three/108430


It would probably be better if the split was designed in the same fashion as the split in the down tube is. I would expect titanium to be a little better at managing the fatigue though.


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## radiusq (May 24, 2007)

ilostmypassword said:


> Spencer..you know my thoughts on this


Not sure that I do, can you elaborate Mr Petch?


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## ikekrull (Jun 14, 2010)

*Broken Unit*

Saw this thread and thought I would chime in.

I'm from Wellington, NZ, and I also have (had) a 2009 20" Unit 29er (its too big for me offroad but as a commuter i love it - i lived up the brookyn hill so commuting involved a pretty decent hillclimb, hence the desirability of a low gear) - and my frame cracked in exactly the same place as pictured.

The most abuse i ever doled out to this bike is jumping it over judder bars on the way into work. Its offroad life was limited to some bumpy on-the-flat riding round the coast and one time down some trails on Mt. Vic.

It was replaced with the 2010 frame by Kona (i requested they replace it with the 18" frame but they said they couldn't do that).

No problem since then, and the frame feels better - springier - than the old one, and the new colour is indeed pretty sweet.

But yeah, just comfirming this is a manufacturing defect, and is not due to overstressing the frame in my opinion.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Shame you couldn't get a change in size. It's not like it costs them anything extra.

I was lucky actually, because the steerer tube was only _just_ long enough, even after removing all of the spacers. Larger head tube. I checked it the other day after the race, and there would be maybe 4mm from the steerer to the top of the stem.


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## radiusq (May 24, 2007)

ikekrull said:


> The most abuse i ever doled out to this bike is jumping it over judder bars on the way into work. Its offroad life was limited to some bumpy on-the-flat riding round the coast and one time down some trails on Mt. Vic.


So that brings the total number of snapped at the drive side chainstay 2009 Unit 2-9 frames I'm aware of to 7, including my own.

It's interesting you only ever commuted on yours too. I reckon I was pretty light on mine and only ever really rode it on timid trails to begin with.

Pity they couldn't swap out the frame size you wanted. How long did the warranty take for you? I had a long 5 week wait and felt the need to keep on top of the bike shop to make it happen at all (I hate having to do that sort of thing too). In the end the distributor had to pull a 2010 bike back from one of the shops, dismantle it and then send the frame on. Oh, I'm also in NZ btw.

Maybe you can get the bike to behave more trail friendly with a shorter / inverted stem. Initially I had problems with the way my 20" bike handled and then inverted the stock stem whilst installing some Salsa Pro Moto bars. From that moment on it's been just about perfect. The Salsa bars have a much larger than normal 19degree back sweep and are pretty flexy (which is good on a rigid forked bike).


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## ikekrull (Jun 14, 2010)

Yeah, i think it was actually the bike shop who didnt pass on my request for a smaller frame rather than Kona actually refusing to do it - You can never really tell, and I heard a few different stories about what was actually happening with the bike while I was waiting.

I had a 4-week wait for a new frame to come in, and they too had to disassemble their on-floor model (to my chagrin, an 18" one) because the new frame is incompatible with the 2009 dropouts.

Interesting that the 2010 unit is substantially more expensive than the 2009, despite only minor upgrades to the componentry. I guess Kona have to pay for all the 2009 frames that are in the bin now.

I have indeed fitted a shorter stem to my Unit, which sharpens it up a bit and unweights the front when seated - I also fitted some hydro brakes. Havent played with gearing yet, as the stock gearing was great for my hillclimb-commute. Now i'm on the flat (living in plimmerton), i think i will need to change to some taller gearing.

Despite knowing its technically too big for me (i'm 5'11), I find it a very comfortable bike. From the moment i first sat on it i loved it - its just the lack of standover thats a problem for me offroad.

I've even had road tyres on mine, but it looked a bit gangly with such wide forks so i have the knobblies back on it these days.


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## radiusq (May 24, 2007)

My warranty experience was pretty poor too. It was not helped by the fact that I bought the bike from a shop in Auckland and was instructed by the distributor to a shop in Christchurch whom technically I was never a customer of. I couldn't ***** and moan too much at them for the slow handling as they really had no obligation to me and as such it really wasn't their problem anyway. 

It was definitely a frustrating experience. I heard 3-4 different stories on route. First a new frame was going to be shipped from the US. That took a week not to materialize. Then it was going to be shipped direct from the factory - and that kept me off their backs for another couple of weeks. Anyway, I wasn't majorly fussed as I'm fortunate enough to have a 2nd bike and I only really use the singlespeed unit over the winter. But still, either the bike shop, distributor, or Kona themselves were telling porkies at some point.

re: standover height. I'm 6'0" on the dot, but have relatively short 32" inseam, so standover is a bit tight for me, but as long as I keep the bike upright not much of a problem 

If you do find the bike harsh on your hands off trail, I can't recommend the salsa pro moto bars enough. Best upgrade on the bike (crossmark tyre on the rear was a good move too btw). With the stock bars would get painful after about 30mins riding. The Salsa bars dampen much of the trail vibration out. Best 40$ I've ever spent on trademe


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

For what it's worth, this is how you make proper adjustable dropouts...

From Black Cat Bicycles.


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## cowpat (Apr 13, 2008)

Stevob said:


> For what it's worth, this is how you make proper adjustable dropouts...


Not perfect, but a huge improvement and something I could live with.

I suppose that ideally the seatstay would have a pivot/bolt at the seat junction and another at the chainstay, so the rear axle was always in line with the seatstay regardless of the chainstay adjustment.

Edit: actually IMHO the first singlespeed design I've seen preferable to an eccentric bottom bracket or rear hub, but then I don't get out much. Just cut off that derailler hanger.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Yeah, they do make a hangerless version also.

For tensioning you're describing something like the Ibis Tranny, however it's only available as a 26er. It is carbon also.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Blacksheep Bikes do a Ti frame (29er Highlight) with telescoping chainstays for yet another tensioning option.


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## chumbox (Jan 9, 2008)

The new Salsa El Mariachi is using the new swinging tensioners as well. Frame out soon.


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## John© (Jan 10, 2008)

An overly complicated solution to a simple problem, I reckon.

Spot has a good design, nice and simple. Note where the seat stay intersects, making a much stronger dropout than the type Kona uses.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Forgot about the Spot system, but for the life of me, I can't seem to figure out how the dropout separates. I can see part of the split, but that's it.


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## John© (Jan 10, 2008)

Imagine the dropout as two plates clamped together with the two bolts. The outermost plate is attached to the chainstay; the inner plate is attached to the seatstay.

I think.


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## chumbox (Jan 9, 2008)

So we've established the the EBB isn't so bad after all? Personally I really like em.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

John© said:


> Imagine the dropout as two plates clamped together with the two bolts. The outermost plate is attached to the chainstay; the inner plate is attached to the seatstay.
> 
> I think.


Thats sort of what I was thinking. Not bad.

The EBB's with a split shell are apparently very reliable also. Phil Wood does a smaller (1.84" as opposed to 2.142" OD) half link EBB which compliments a split shell design and reduces the weight further. Having said that, if you were to choose a place on the bike to add weight, it'd be at the bottom bracket.


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## Hud (Jun 22, 2004)

EBB :thumbsup:


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## nuclear_powered (Apr 18, 2007)

Apparently Niner's split EBB is the shiznit.


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## chumbox (Jan 9, 2008)

Hey Hud

how's the forward components EBB treating ya?


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## Hud (Jun 22, 2004)

Sold the ala carte and and bought a Selma, but that's another story. The FC EBB would be faultless long term. The only issue would be that there may not be enough stroke (not the right word) to allow for chain stretch which may mean a little fiddling with chain links.
The guy I sold it too is a mate and he was possibly going to break it up. Do you want me to put a word in for the EBB?


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## chumbox (Jan 9, 2008)

Thanks for the offer but I'm good for now. Appreciate it. Good to know for future reference though. Selma's are a beautiful bike, nice decision.


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## cowpat (Apr 13, 2008)

Stevob said:


> Blacksheep Bikes do a Ti frame (29er Highlight) with telescoping chainstays for yet another tensioning option.


Now that's more like it:thumbsup:.



John© said:


> Spot has a good design, nice and simple. Note where the seat stay intersects, making a much stronger dropout than the type Kona uses.[/IMG]


Anyone got a link to a pic that shows how the disc brake is mounted/adjusted? Spot website is down for development: why don't they leave the old one up when they set up the new one??? I must say those little bolts do look - well - little.


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## John© (Jan 10, 2008)

Which "little" bolts are you referring to, cowpat? The smallest bolt just acts as a stopper, the pair of bolts do all the work.


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## cowpat (Apr 13, 2008)

John© said:


> Which "little" bolts are you referring to, cowpat? The smallest bolt just acts as a stopper, the pair of bolts do all the work.[/QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks for the pic - pretty clear now. I was referring to the pair of bolts. It's all pretty minimal so I hope it's been properly designed and manufactured somewhere where quality rather than quantity is important. On the brake side it looks like the slot and the slider into which the pair of bolts go has to withstand all the torque generated by braking which will be trying to rip the slot apart. You can see braking torque is significant in that they've had to add a brace to the triangle. Even if it never fails it may flex in use and movement may have a tendency to loosen the pair of bolts. I'd be happy with the design on a road bike or smooth trails. If I was a heavy rider on rocky trails I'd be dubious about it. Just my opinion.


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## nuclear_powered (Apr 18, 2007)

Considering that's a split frame, I agree the bolts and dropout plate look a little flimsy. But I guess it must work.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

One small, and somewhat insignificant, side effect of having a sliding dropout system is that it widens the distance between the chainstays (by the thickness of the sliders) where the heel passes. The heel rub then strips any paint quick smart. It'll probably still happen on a regular dropout frame, but depends on the chainstay shape.

FWIW, I stripped the paint in this spot off my new frame in one day.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

nuclear_powered said:


> Apparently Niner's split EBB is the shiznit.


Yup. This is winning for me so far. Light weight, simple design, works perfectly, no creaking and leaves the rear end of the bike with less weight, clean lines and no weak spots. What more could you ask for?


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## Hud (Jun 22, 2004)

As a long time lurker on the Niner forum I have to say that unfortunately some people have a bad go with the Niner Bio-centric. Plenty of people have a good run with them too. At the end of the day you can have a good or bad run with any setup.
As for my Niner with the set screw EBB, it has been FAULTLESS. Setup with teflon tape and torqued correctly it has never creaked or slipped.


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## cowpat (Apr 13, 2008)

Stevob said:


> ...Light weight, simple design, works perfectly, no creaking and leaves the rear end of the bike with less weight, clean lines and no weak spots. What more could you ask for?


Magic Ratio? I am lucky because that works for me. Maybe a custom magic-ratio frame? Sure, it wouldn't be for everyone.

Does anyone still do horizontal dropouts and some way to shift the caliper independently? e.g.: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=5598005&postcount=43


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## chumbox (Jan 9, 2008)

cowpat said:


> Does anyone still do horizontal dropouts and some way to shift the caliper independently? e.g.: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=5598005&postcount=43


The last run on On-One Inbreds still had it but I think they are getting over-hauled so that may all change.

You could always get it added to your custom magic gear frame anyways. :thumbsup:


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