# An idea whose time has come.



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Devin Lenz is no stranger to innovation. He's been pushing the limits of what's doable and desirable with 29" wheels for over a decade. Even though every one of the big players and most of the smaller ones are finally hawking their version of big wheeled bliss, Devin's bikes remain atop the heap when it comes to uncompromised on-trail performance. It doesn't hurt his credibility that each of his designs are dreamed up, prototyped, fabricated, and ultimately produced right here in Colorado.

And while he wasn't the first to experiment with the full-suspension single speed, he was the first to do it with 29" wheels, and has been consistently doing it for longer than anyone else regardless of wheel size.

Devin shipped the first short-rear Milk Money my way many years ago, and while I loved the idea and execution, that chassis was always a little anemic for my tastes. I'm no Graham Agassiz on the bike--I just lean more toward the chunkier end of the spectrum than what the Milk Money was designed to do.

And while I've flirted with the k.i.s.s. principle on my singlespeeds for 20+ years now, the reality is that my backyard trails, and the way I like to ride them, demand a proper FS bike.

With that preamble out of the way, I'd like to introduce the first protoype of the LenzSport LunchMoney.



Astute observers will immediately 'get' the name--a combination of Devin's most capable trailbike and the aforementioned concentric-pivot xc whip.



Whole lot happening right there: Concentric pivot spinning on massive cartridge bearings and a PMW titanium bb shell. Plus stealth dropper routing and clearance for 2.5" meat.



Devin's proprietary sliders, with an older-than-old-school Boone ti cog.



A buttery 150mm of travel up front and an impossibly silky ~140mm out back. Since this is the first proto the rear travel and suspension characteristics are far from 'set'--we'll experiment with a multitude of options including different shock tunes, leverage ratios and spring curves.



Go on--show me a cleaner cockpit on a 5+" travel bike. Unseen but at least as important--try to find a quieter 5" machine than this one. Utterly silent.

And on that note? Belt drive compatible. Still unsure if I'm willing to go down that rabbit hole...



This chassis will aim to blur the lines between climbing phenom and ripping descender. In short, I _need_ it to be a capable climber, but more than that I _want _it to be fun.

Over the next few months I'll post updates as the process of getting it from _here_ to _there_ proceeds.

Thanks for checkin' in.​


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## fixgeardan (Aug 20, 2004)

Oh dang! We need one of those in Preskitt......


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## ghost_03 (Apr 29, 2005)

Yeah, that's really cool. I very much like the idea of concentric pivot faux-bar suspension, I think its the best you can do on a fully SS without making it overly complex. This sort of thing you'd really need to ride to make an opinion on, though. The pivot solves a lot of problems for a FS singlespeed, but I doubt its the optimum location suspension wise.

I look forward to updates!


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Oh. Wow. The air has suddenly gotten thin in here, and I think I'm going to need a doctor. And one of those.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

What's the old saying? "The bigger the cushion the more you'll be pushin'" or something to that effect.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

This is certainly going much better than Lynx and the Phantom. 


Well done sir!!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Wow.... as always, beautifully executed.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

fixgeardan said:


> Oh dang! We need one of those in Preskitt......


No doubt.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

mikesee said:


> and while I loved the idea and execution, that chassis was always a little anemic for my tastes.
> 
> I just lean more toward the chunkier end of the spectrum than what the Milk Money was designed to do.
> 
> With that preamble out of the way, I'd like to introduce the first protoype of the LenzSport LunchMoney.


OMG! How many times did we email back and forth about the need for this bike back in the day?

I loved proto 001 of the 3" short stay MM to death. Three years of intensely technical riding killed it. It was an XC racing frame put under stress it was never designed for. I loved it, never replaced it and it still hangs in the garage.










The Milk Money is dead. Now give me your Lunch Money!

I have not been in the market for a bike in quite some time, but I think that just changed.

I think this bike will be heavily dependent on shock selection and low speed damping for good climbing manners. There is no getting around the leverages of a concentric pivot and a large amount of travel.

Luckily there are very nice shocks out there that allow independent tuning of high and low speed damping. Do they fit the bike?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

ghost_03 said:


> Yeah, that's really cool. I very much like the idea of concentric pivot faux-bar suspension, I think its the best you can do on a fully SS without making it overly complex. This sort of thing you'd really need to ride to make an opinion on, though. The pivot solves a lot of problems for a FS singlespeed, but I doubt its the optimum location suspension wise.
> 
> I look forward to updates!


Devin has been wondering about that too--the optimum location. And knowing how to tweak spring curves the way he does, he's building himself one of these (with a der hanger and gears) so that he can ride it back to back and compare it to his LunchBox.

I've only ridden my LM enough to say that the top end feels incredibly supple, and there's no harshness at end-stroke. Need much more time to figure out what's happening in between, and where it needs to go.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Enel said:


> Luckily there are very nice shocks out there that allow independent tuning of high and low speed damping. Do they fit the bike?


As with the LB and Behe, you'll be able to run 200 x 51 or 200 x 57. Expect in the neighborhood of 4.5", 5", or 5.5" of travel, depending on how much shock stroke and which control levers.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

You have my attention....

Bad Idea Racing: Drooper Related Syndrome

I've stared at the 4.0 long and hard. Some of these questions are now answered:

Why it still uses a 27.2 post?

How it would handle a 140-150mm fjork... because that's what I want?

It's still a swing arm design. How does the brake affect the suspension?

I want to have my cake and eat it to. Hate to admit it, but I kinda want a 650b version. I saw that the 4.0 had that as an option.


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## kragu (Jun 14, 2011)

Enel said:


> Luckily there are very nice shocks out there that allow independent tuning of high and low speed damping. Do they fit the bike?


Looks like it might fit a DB Inline. I have a DB Air on my Lunchbox and it does pretty phenomenal things for that bike. Starting to break some climbing PRs I set on my RIP 9, after a bit of a riding lay off between the two bikes.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

kragu said:


> Looks like it might fit a DB Inline. I have a DB Air on my Lunchbox and it does pretty phenomenal things for that bike. Starting to break some climbing PRs I set on my RIP 9, after a bit of a riding lay off between the two bikes.


I am very pleased with my DB air on another bike.


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## wigston (May 3, 2006)

yeah. devin can pretty much make any of the bikes in 27.5" if that is what you guys want. If you're the first one, it can take some time since he has to create the drawings, but that's kind of where he's going. Everything in both wheel sizes. 

oh, and the Lunchmoney does NOT use a 27.2mm seatpost diameter. It's 30.9mm.


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## 12snap (Mar 11, 2004)

That looks like such a fun bike! Does your prototype have the shorter Punk Ass chainstays or are they the same as the normal Milk Money?


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

wigston said:


> oh, and the Lunchmoney does NOT use a 27.2mm seatpost diameter. It's 30.9mm.


I figured as much. No one has an internal 27.2 post.

This bike (in a 27.5 format with short'ish stays) might do me nicely.


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## mxer (May 27, 2006)

Glad you posted this mikesee!When I spoke with Devin last week he said you might be posting pics of it soon.Looking forward to your impressions on it.I will take mine geared!LOL


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## Thor29 (May 12, 2005)

You guys are so incredibly mean and rotten. I had finally gotten a handle on my bike lust and here you go ruining everything. I figured I'd stick with the bikes I have for a long, long time but now I can see that resistance is futile. The Lunch Money is the bike I have been daydreaming of for years. If only I could actually afford it.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

BOING!!
:thumbsup:
The decal on the seat stay should be "29 x 5.5 x 1"


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## mxer (May 27, 2006)

12snap said:


> That looks like such a fun bike! Does your prototype have the shorter Punk Ass chainstays or are they the same as the normal Milk Money?


I believe they are 17 inches but the PA is coming.


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

Props to Devin for his ongoing innovation


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## ghost_03 (Apr 29, 2005)

mxer said:


> 12snap said:
> 
> 
> > That looks like such a fun bike! Does your prototype have the shorter Punk Ass chainstays or are they the same as the normal Milk Money?
> ...


I think that with a concentric pivot its tough to make the chainstays short. You need a bridge between the chainstays to avoid crazy flex. For short chainstays you would need to relocate that bridge, instead of being between the tire and bottom bracket, you would have to put it under the bottom bracket or something else creative. That would take some work to get it right.


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

ghost_03 said:


> I think that with a concentric pivot its tough to make the chainstays short. You need a bridge between the chainstays to avoid crazy flex. For short chainstays you would need to relocate that bridge, instead of being between the tire and bottom bracket, you would have to put it under the bottom bracket or something else creative. That would take some work to get it right.


Man, I can't wait to hear how this thing works, because I want it!


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## flyinmike (Dec 17, 2005)

Absolutely beautiful....
mikey... want


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

Very cool! Can't say I'd be excited to huff a 31lb single speed around, but those crazy people are out there.

I seem to think this would be the PERFECT Gooseberry type bike...or Enel's backyard.


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## bsdc (May 1, 2006)

I owned a MM3.0 and I really like the idea of a LM5.5 but I'm guessing it would be just a little too much of a pogo stick to hammer up hill. I'm not even think about the frame so much. I'm thinking about standing and cranking on a 150mm fork. I'm thinking the perfect rig for me might be a MM4.0 with the new concentric pivot cartridge bearings and a 120mm fork. That said, I'm open minded, and look forward to reading reports and seeing video of the LM5.5 in action. 

Thanks for posting.


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## C.P. (Sep 17, 2005)

that bike looks like a frickin' party...


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## bonesetter2004 (May 27, 2007)

Padre said:


> Very cool! Can't say I'd be excited to huff a 31lb single speed around, but those crazy people are out there.
> 
> I seem to think this would be the PERFECT Gooseberry type bike...or Enel's backyard.


You've been away for too long - weight weenieing is so last year 

Look at fat bikes' weight's which are getting super popular now...


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

bonesetter2004 said:


> You've been away for too long - weight weenieing is so last year
> 
> Look at fat bikes' weight's which are getting super popular now...


I can't even fathom! I did a local loop on a 31lb 5" bike...took me 1:15. Did it a week later on a 27lb xc bike and did it in 1:03. Kinda had fun with the decent on both. I. Can't. Stop. Weight.Weeny.Ways.


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## bonesetter2004 (May 27, 2007)

Padre said:


> I can't even fathom! I did a local loop on a 31lb 5" bike...took me 1:15. Did it a week later on a 27lb xc bike and did it in 1:03. Kinda had fun with the decent on both. I. Can't. Stop. Weight.Weeny.Ways.


He he, yeah I think I'm with you really (although maybe not to your extent) - I've brought down my Fat Bike's weight to 27lb - made a nice noticeable difference

I don't know - maybe if you're riding big chunk all the time weight is less of an issue?


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

bonesetter2004 said:


> I don't know - maybe if you're riding big chunk all the time weight is less of an issue?


Totally right.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Padre said:


> Very cool! Can't say I'd be excited to huff a 31lb single speed around, but those crazy people are out there.


My fully geared/droppered LunchBox is a titch under 30# with 2.5" DHF's.

Pretty sure this SS rig is closer to 26#. Can't be bothered to weigh it until it's 'done'. New wheels built tonight, thinkering on which tires to install tomorrow...


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

mikesee said:


> My fully geared/droppered LunchBox is a titch under 30# with 2.5" DHF's.
> 
> Pretty sure this SS rig is closer to 26#. Can't be bothered to weigh it until it's 'done'. New wheels built tonight, thinkering on which tires to install tomorrow...


What...no Rohloff? =D


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Have gotten a bunch of decent, recent rides on this chassis, from Amasa/Ahab in Moab, to the Dry Lakes stuff above Flag, up on the Rainbow Rim, as well as a bunch of miles on my local stuff--Loma, Lunch Loops, Butterknife, etc... Essentially the kind of trails this bike will excel on.

Been experimenting with gearing (32 x 22, 30 x 20, 30 x 21) and the resultant differences in chainstay length--from 16.7" to 17.25".

Been experimenting with rear tires (DHF 2.3, Trail Boss 2.4, XR-4 2.35, DHR 2.3) and the subtle (and not so subtle) changes that each brings.

Have fiddled with a few different shocks and tunes, and am still doing that. Have always run a DHF 2.5 up front, can't see any reason to change.

Am currently running 30mm rims, might go to 35mm at some point. Hard to see a reason not to.

All permutations have been rideable, fun, competent. It's just a question of fine tuning some of the, um, _finer_ geo specs to get things where we feel they need to be. Probably gonna need to spend a few more months doing that before it becomes a production chassis.


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

I love a single speed as much as anyone and spent the last 8 years racing and riding one. But with today's 1x10 or 1x11 drives, narrow-wide rings and the clutch dérailleur, I struggle to see the advantages of a single speed drive on an AM bike for the average, not-so-fit rider.

But I could be wrong.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

serious said:


> I love a single speed as much as anyone and spent the last 8 years racing and riding one. But with today's 1x10 or 1x11 drives, narrow-wide rings and the clutch dérailleur, I struggle to see the advantages of a single speed drive on an AM bike for the average, not-so-fit rider.
> 
> But I could be wrong.


I think the thing you're missing is that single speeding doesn't _have to be_ advantageous. It is a lot of other things--simple, brutal, light, quiet, empowering, and fun. If it can be all of those, in a 5+" FS package, that'll make a few hundred people happy. And that's good enough.


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

mikesee said:


> I think the thing you're missing is that single speeding doesn't _have to be_ advantageous. It is a lot of other things--simple, brutal, light, quiet, empowering, and fun. If it can be all of those, in a 5+" FS package, that'll make a few hundred people happy. And that's good enough.


Good points.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

mikesee said:


> It is a lot of other things--empowering.


Ah yes, I know that "empowering" feeling of pushing my bike up a hill all too well. =D


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## bsdc (May 1, 2006)

mikesee said:


> Have gotten a bunch of decent, recent rides on this chassis, from Amasa/Ahab in Moab, to the Dry Lakes stuff above Flag, up on the Rainbow Rim, as well as a bunch of miles on my local stuff--Loma, Lunch Loops, Butterknife, etc... Essentially the kind of trails this bike will excel on.
> 
> Been experimenting with gearing (32 x 22, 30 x 20, 30 x 21) and the resultant differences in chainstay length--from 16.7" to 17.25".
> 
> ...


This is a really poor ride report. I'm looking forward to learning more.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

I bought this bike and have had a little time
To whip it into shape over three months of
Very occasional riding. Photo essay to
follow.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

Sigh.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

The original Milk Money died on the move above. Long live the new king.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)




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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)




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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)




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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)




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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

Long story short:

I tried to get really short chainstays, but had trouble with tire clearance. I ended up at 17.1" and 30X22 gearing.

Rear was too easily compressed on pedaling. Solved with increasing rear shock ramp up, increasing spring pressure and damping, and swapping to 5" levers from the original 6" levers.

Didn't like tall B, tippy geometry, solved with above mentioned rocker swap and dropping fork from 150-130mm.

Now I really like it for my particular purposes and I would say there are few bikes better in slow tech. It is lowish travel 130F, 115R. Incredibly over damped, and built brick shithouse solid. There is next to zero flex in this thing and it responds well to body english and track stands.

It is emphatically not a plush Cadillac. It is very strongly damped front and rear allowing me to keep control on square edges stuff while taking the edge off so to speak.

I like it after all the tuning and think it has a place in my quiver: Short intense SS rides in rough tech.


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## bonesetter2004 (May 27, 2007)

Nice write-up

Was just mentioning your chunk riding over on the Trek Stache pages

Stache 5- Mtbr.com


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

bsdc said:


> I owned a MM3.0 and I really like the idea of a LM5.5 but I'm guessing it would be just a little too much of a pogo stick to hammer up hill. I'm not even think about the frame so much. I'm thinking about standing and cranking on a 150mm fork. I'm thinking the perfect rig for me might be a MM4.0 with the new concentric pivot cartridge bearings and a 120mm fork. That said, I'm open minded, and look forward to reading reports and seeing video of the LM5.5 in action.
> 
> Thanks for posting.


I can see your concern, although I didn't feel there was excessive movement with the Stage set @ 150mm.

That said, the BB was too low for my liking on this first proto, which is why it ended up in Enel's capable hands. V2 is somewhere in production in Fort Lupton, I'll post more on it here when it arrives.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

mikesee said:


> That said, the BB was too low for my liking on this first proto, which is why it ended up in Enel's capable hands.


Snort...then I lowered it another half inch.

Forgot to say the Lunchmoney in current low travel form is everything I ever wanted the Milk Money to be.


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## bsdc (May 1, 2006)

Enel said:


> Long story short:
> 
> I tried to get really short chainstays, but had trouble with tire clearance. I ended up at 17.1" and 30X22 gearing.
> 
> ...


Having owned a Milk Money 3.0 and ridden a Leviathan and a Behemoth, your review is much like I would imagine. Thanks for buying, riding, tweeking, and posting your review.


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## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

Any updates on this? Thinking of purchasing one and can't find much information on it from other users.

Thanks,


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Zerort said:


> Any updates on this? Thinking of purchasing one and can't find much information on it from other users.
> 
> Thanks,


There are fewer than 10 out there, so reports might be slim for awhile.

That said, ask a specific question and you might get some responses.


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## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

mikesee said:


> There are fewer than 10 out there, so reports might be slim for awhile.
> 
> That said, ask a specific question and you might get some responses.


Has anyone built theirs with a belt drive?

What are the total weights for some of the builds?

What size fork are people choosing to run?

Do you like the short chain stays?

Thanks,


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

I have had the LunchMoney hanging, not riding it because frankly, I haven't been riding much and when I did ride, I needed as much help with gearing as possible. I have pondered selling it because I have two bikes I rarely ride already and certainly don't need a third.

In the last couple months, I have returned to the trails, mostly with gears and suspension. As my fitness improved, so did the longing for a single speed ride, so I pulled the rigid down and delighted in its responsiveness and playfulness. And I suffered from the beat down for a couple days afterwords.

Last night as I thought about where to ride this am, the LM called to me. I aired up the tires, retuned the shocks for my weight (I had been letting my son ride it), and replaced the flat pedals with clippies. I am so glad I rode it today.










I had to tweek the air pressures on the trail, it likes about 11-12mm of sag in the rear and 110-120 psi in the fork for my 200lbs of meat and gear. Once I got it dialed, I had to recalibrate myself a bit. Initially it felt nervous. But that is in comparison to the enormous wheelbase of the Prime which is unflapable, but much less playful.










My brain recalibrated around the time I hit the first extended downhill.

Click.

Wow!

Drifts as one piece. Blows through chunder no drama. Berm, manual, drop, jump, repeat! It is hard to overstate the solidity of this bike. Just a big BMX.

It is definitely short travel, but not noodle like most shorter travel bikes. Bam and gone on the hits. No secondary vibrations.










It remains a sedate climber, or perhaps that is me? Either way it is no racer and feels heavy on the ups. Down, it suits my style which involves hitting most things in the trail in an attempt to get a little mini air, or rolling over boulders and logs just off the trail.

I like that I can do this and still have the fun and quietness of a single speed without the beating a rigid can give you.

Whether or not anyone else would like this bike depends on their interpretation of the photo below: obstacle to be avoided or opportunity to be taken?


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

doesn't matter what i am riding today, just stoked after that ride report. right, on!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Zerort said:


> Has anyone built theirs with a belt drive?
> 
> What are the total weights for some of the builds?
> 
> ...


Haven't seen a belt version yet, but have (mildly) considered one.

Mine is 27# complete. 150 Pike, 140 rear end, Reverb Stealth, 35mm rims, 2.5" tires, 180/160 rotors. Could be lighter, but wouldn't be as much fun, nor nearly as capable.

I have my stays crammed down to 16.6" and yes, yes I like them very much thank you.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Great descriptive ride write-up Enel!

Gets me stoked and amped up on a fs bike real soon. Just building one now and your words make me want to get it done that much sooner. Been riding a heavy ht for 2 years now, a plus fat bike, but you reminded me just how much I miss the unstoppable feeling fs provides. Great ride and nice Lenz!~


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

Hard to believe it has been 5 years on this Lunchmoney. It has recently become my commuter. The CCDB took a dump and started squeaking. Replaced with a Fox shock of some sort I had in the tool box and rode on. I like the Fox.

I have nothing to add that I haven't other than that I still really enjoy the bike. Five years older, I wish I had left a little more on the steertube to raise the bars a touch.

And my commute to work "rocks"


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

I have re entered Mountain biking world this year biking 2-3 times a week. As my fitness improved, the Lunch Money entered the rotation so to speak. I love riding single speeds, but they take a certain base level of fitness to really enjoy.

Recently I swapped in an older 130mm Pike, raised the bars 20mm, and replaced the drive side chainstay pivot. All welcome improvements. I don't know why, but the MRP forks always feel harsh to me on small impacts and the Pike has very much met my expectations. I now have two tuning rides on the "improved" 130F, 115R Lunch Money and it continues to remind my why, for years, the Milk Money was my most ridden bike.

My only regret is the lack of ability to go with Plus tires on this chassis. I asked Devin if he would consider building a Plus Money, but he declined, so it is what it is. I doubt there are anything like the numbers of bikes needed for such a radical design change in the wild. If fact I have no idea how many of these Lunch Moneys even exist.

Love that clean cockpit.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The only reason I don't have one of these is the lack of updated geo.

I know Devin isn't going to update this bike, but I still wish he would.



Enel said:


> I have re entered Mountain biking world this year biking 2-3 times a week. As my fitness improved, the Lunch Money entered the rotation so to speak. I love riding single speeds, but they take a certain base level of fitness to really enjoy.
> 
> Recently I swapped in an older 130mm Pike, raised the bars 20mm, and replaced the drive side chainstay pivot. All welcome improvements. I don't know why, but the MRP forks always feel harsh to me on small impacts and the Pike has very much met my expectations. I now have two tuning rides on the "improved" 130F, 115R Lunch Money and it continues to remind my why, for years, the Milk Money was my most ridden bike.
> 
> ...


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Never mind.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

Hey I can reply now!

Bike is still going strong.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

Millimeters, degrees and psi matter. The Lunch Money had been not so fun to ride. After some thought and measurement, I installed a 15mm shorter stem. Devin Lenz had some 4” rockers available which slacked the head angle 1*, reduced bottom bracket height 6mm, and reduced rear travel to now 90mm. 

I think it rides brilliantly. It’s just a lot more fun. It’s easier to loft the front wheel and very confident in the rocks. We’ll see at higher speeds but usually if I can make it work in the Dells I can make it work on most trails. 

I don’t miss having a lot of travel. This is just enough cush to take the harshness off but not so much I am wallowing in suspension motion when hammering the concentric pivot. I like low, slack, short travel, burly frames. Fished my wish. 

I am excited to continue to enjoy this really unique bike. In its current form is it a burlier, slacker, lower version of one of my favorite frames ever, the Lenz Milk Money.

I also installed 2.5 DHF rear which barely fits. With rim inserts I am running 18psi front and rear which may be a little soft in the rear, but it is a lot more pleasant then the 23-25 psi I required without the inserts.


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