# I can’t do it anymore. Hydration and food a must - can’t rely on fat.



## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

I simply can’t jump on my bike and ride anytime I want. I am 6’6” and 240 lbs. not thin but not fat. I do have a bit of a belly.

i have to make sure I have plenty of water and have eaten something before I ride it I just tank. 
My body must be really bad at using stored fat because I feel like crap if I don’t prep myself. 

how can I get my body to use more of the stored energy / fat?


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

You might wanna get checked out. 

I have reactive hypoglycemia, and as soon as that started, I can’t ride on an empty stomach.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Presumably your body is like that of the vast majority of other human bodies, and your muscles and liver store glycogen.

Your body generally won’t burn fat (during exercise) until that is exhausted.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> Presumably your body is like that of the vast majority of other human bodies, and your muscles and liver store glycogen.
> 
> Your body generally won’t burn fat (during exercise) until that is exhausted.
> 
> ...


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Bassmantweed said:


> I simply can’t jump on my bike and ride anytime I want. I am 6’6” and 240 lbs. not thin but not fat. I do have a bit of a belly.
> 
> i have to make sure I have plenty of water and have eaten something before I ride it I just tank.
> My body must be really bad at using stored fat because I feel like crap if I don’t prep myself.
> ...



Pace dictates a big part of the answer to your question.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Bassmantweed said:


> how can I get my body to use more of the stored energy / fat?




Have you tried a keto diet? From what i understand it takes awhile for your body to achieve ketosis and efficiently burn fat.

Personally I just accept that I need to fuel well for rides and carry lots of calories onboard for longer rides. Good hydration is a given.


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## NS-NV (Aug 15, 2006)

When I started intermittent fasting, I already had a low sugar/ low carb diet (not keto tho), and 23% body fat. I also started measuring my blood glucose and ketone levels daily.

I was shocked how long it took for my body to adapt, and my blood glucose to drop during my fasted state (glucose down, ketones up = bye bye dadbod). It took a few weeks. Once I got to that point tho, I started loosing fat, without increasing my caloric mix (what I took in, and how much I burned). I got injured, but that positive trend still held for a couple weeks (I was still I-Fasting). I got down to 19% body fat.

Changes in what you eat, keto, intermittent fasting are all ways to get to that point. A blood glucose meter will help you figure out which one works for you (I’ve done them all, and IF works best for me). When I plateau, I go back to checking my blood regularly, and find that I’m not getting that drop by the end of my fasts.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> Presumably your body is like that of the vast majority of other human bodies, and your muscles and liver store glycogen.
> 
> Your body generally won’t burn fat (during exercise) until that is exhausted.
> 
> ...


And...it will feel horrible. I'm about to do a 350 mile race in the winter next week and you can't take down enough calories while this is going on, but the way you feel, it's hard to describe in words. Go pull a 40lb sled for 16 hours a day with no wheels, wake up the next day and do it again, repeat. You'll be burning fat for sure.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

There is not much to say. You should start by saying way more about you.
Are you pushing yourself too much?
What activities have you done regularly in the past 5 years?
It sounds like you have been asleep for a year.
You should ask someone who knows you.
Good luck getting better.


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## Danimal (Nov 18, 2004)

stripes said:


> You might wanna get checked out.
> 
> I have reactive hypoglycemia, and as soon as that started, I can’t ride on an empty stomach.


My first thought as well. Go to your physician for a check up/physical just to rule out something more than 

My situation for reference; I’ve become pre-diabetic over the last year and now bonk quite easily. I’ve constantly got to think about food, and it sucks. I do long (typically 12 hour) adventure races and pre-diabetes could easily keep me from being able to do these going forward. The bonk in the middle of my last one was epic and really alarmed my teammates.

And yes, I did this to myself - I’m not a victim or anything. Diabetes runs in my family and I’ve spent the last few years eating and drinking too much and now have a belly.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

About 3 years ago i was carrying dates and peanuts and i got tired of snacking every hour. 
Now i carry nothing, no food no liquid. That works too for me but we should know what works for us.


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

Intermittent fasting got my body to ultiize fat very well. The trade off is no more sudden burst of 100% effort.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Danimal said:


> My first thought as well. Go to your physician for a check up/physical just to rule out something more than
> 
> My situation for reference; I’ve become pre-diabetic over the last year and now bonk quite easily. I’ve constantly got to think about food, and it sucks. I do long (typically 12 hour) adventure races and pre-diabetes could easily keep me from being able to do these going forward. The bonk in the middle of my last one was epic and really alarmed my teammates.
> 
> And yes, I did this to myself - I’m not a victim or anything. Diabetes runs in my family and I’ve spent the last few years eating and drinking too much and now have a belly.


@Bassmantweed seriously, go to a doctor. Get checked out. Reactive hypoglycemia and diabetes are no joke.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

stripes said:


> @Bassmantweed seriously, go to a doctor. Get checked out. Reactive hypoglycemia and diabetes are no joke.


 
Good advice – I lost my GP about 3 years ago and I am due for a physical. With COVID, the last place I have wanted to go was to a Dr’s office. There is no instruction book for getting old. I feel overall in good health but should get checked. I will do that.



Afternoon/evening rides are no problem – I have ample time to get up, have my coffee plan my meal and hydrate – then I usually crush my rides.

Morning rides - When I wake up on weekends, drink half a pot of coffee, don’t really hydrate or eat a good breakfast then try and ride I just BONK.

No surprises here I guess. I used to be able to find a way to muscle through when I was younger. Those days are gone.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Bassmantweed said:


> I simply can’t jump on my bike and ride anytime I want. I am 6’6” and 240 lbs. not thin but not fat. I do have a bit of a belly.
> 
> i have to make sure I have plenty of water and have eaten something before I ride it I just tank.
> My body must be really bad at using stored fat because I feel like crap if I don’t prep myself.
> ...


Your story is pretty similar to mine only I went on thinking eating and water was the answer. 
I eventually landed in the hospital with one of my bonks. I had a bonk but was still functional enough to finish and go home. About three hours after finishing, I landed in the hospital with high fever and cramping. When I checked in my BP was 68/54 and my heart rate was very high. I was also peeing coffee. I was diagnosed with dehydration, low sodium and rhabdomyolsis. I never fully recovered my stamina after that. I was in for two weeks of hell fighting for my life. 
What I learned was heart rate % of maximum matters on what is used for fuel and heart rate can be driven by factors other than exercise. Fat burning range is in the lower end of greater than resting pulse but less than max. The glycol buring range is greater than fat burning but less than maximum heart rate. Near maximum heart rate the perfered fuel is protein.
In my case, the low sodium levels caused functional dehydration, even though I was drinking enough water and eating carbs. That low sodium caused a big increase in heart rate on my normal "pushing it" single track run. The prefered fuel was protein and my body took if from my muscle mass, including my heart. That flooded my blood stream with breakdown products that temporarily shut down my kidneys. Being on a ketosis diet might have killed me, I don't know. 
After that, I was careful but still ended up in ER again. This time with a BP of 54/38. I was put on a high saline IV and was fine in a couple of hours. I had not gone long enough to develop the Rhabdomoylsis. 
I still cannot maintain good sodium and don't know why but, since I can't recognize it easily, I went to an e bike that keeps me off the high heart rate peg and more in the fat burning range. Even if I am a bit dehydrated. 
My point is: be careful. If you cannot properly burn glycogen because of pre diabetes, then you might be at risk of burning muscle instead of fat, when and if, your heart rate goes way up.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Bassmantweed said:


> I simply can’t jump on my bike and ride anytime I want. I am 6’6” and 240 lbs. not thin but not fat. I do have a bit of a belly.
> 
> i have to make sure I have plenty of water and have eaten something before I ride it I just tank.
> My body must be really bad at using stored fat because I feel like crap if I don’t prep myself.
> ...


You need to train your body to burn it's fat stores through a diet that's low in carbohydrates (keto, carnivore, paleo, etc.) and intermittent fasting (12-23 hours without eating every day). Once you're "fat adapted", you won't need anything but water and electrolytes to ride as long as you want, and really, for rides of less than 2-3 hours, you're probably drinking too much water anyhow.

.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Danimal said:


> My first thought as well. Go to your physician for a check up/physical just to rule out something more than
> 
> My situation for reference; I’ve become pre-diabetic over the last year and now bonk quite easily. I’ve constantly got to think about food, and it sucks. I do long (typically 12 hour) adventure races and pre-diabetes could easily keep me from being able to do these going forward. The bonk in the middle of my last one was epic and really alarmed my teammates.
> 
> And yes, I did this to myself - I’m not a victim or anything. Diabetes runs in my family and I’ve spent the last few years eating and drinking too much and now have a belly.



There are two main ways biochemically to get to diabetes: consistent high blood sugar, and high/low blood sugar swings. The consistent high blood sugar path that most people take to diabetes tends to be _metabolic syndrome_, which is associated with high blood pressure, a lot of abdominal fat (apple shape), family history of heart disease, and tends to affect ethnic groups from the more temperate and tropical areas. 

A minority of people go the blood sugar swing path, where they may have low blood sugar for years and then eventually get diabetes because the excessive cortisol (stress hormone) concentration ends up inhibiting insulin utilization downstream of the insulin receptor. So insulin levels could be normal or high but there is still glucose intolerance and (relatively mild) diabetes eventually. This 2nd path to diabetes is not as bad as the first and is more reversible. The person above that said they have reactive hypoglycemia for sure is in this 2nd group, although reactive hypoglycemia doesn't take hours to happen --- it usually happens within 15-30 minutes of some activity. Reactive hypoglycemia is a controversial diagnosis most doctors are probably afraid to even talk about because there is no hard clinical evidence for it test-wise. That's not to say it doesn't happen but it's psychosomatic: the nervous system is 'preparing' for what it predicts to be glycogen depletion before it actually happens in real time. Not so different than getting stage fright before the actual, physical stage. So in your case, consciously or subconsciously, you have conditioned your nervous system to predict a blood sugar crash before it happens, which means your symptoms may be worse than the actual blood sugar level crash itself --- the glucose level could still be OK at 70-80 mg/dl but it feels like it's 50-60. 

It's really hard to say which group you are in above if your relatives have diabetes and you have a belly now. I for one eat small meals about 8 times a day; if I have a huge meal I can go maybe 6-8 hours at the most (awake, not sleeping) before I need another meal. That would fall into the 2nd category above. Remember that it's no coincidence that fasting is very popular in India, a temperate country that would fall into category 1 (metabolic syndrome and not low blood sugar). That's why they can fast because their metabolism is resistant to blood sugar crashes but susceptible to high blood sugar if they don't exercise enough. Hence the 'Happy Buddha' figurine in Southeast Asia with the large belly that is sitting peacefully for hours at a time.

Temperate / tropical regions tend to have lower metabolic rates because it's hot and humid; there is no reason for generating excessive heat through metabolism. So ironically their metabolism is more efficient even though they tend to be overweight because they are 'efficiently' storing energy instead of wasting it as heat. Compare that with the 2nd group, that often has Northern ethnicity, as in Northwestern European. Cold climates need more heat generation. Heat is generated by metabolism. 40% or so of carbohydrate / other macromolecule catabolism for energy is lost as heat --- but in the 2nd group that could be higher, possibly as high as 60% because they need more heat to survive the cold. This was an adaptation that took tens of thousands of years after migration from Africa. If you are from that ethnic group, you need to eat heavier foods more, period. It's not bad, it's good. It's necessary. Fruits, vegetables, smoothies, and bean sprouts all day long are just not going to cut it for the 2nd group. They need to eat politically incorrect foods. If you still need to be convinced: the French, most of whom are originally from Germanic tribes after some major migrations between 100 BC and 700 AD, eat four times as much fat as Italians on average and yet have lower rates of heart disease. Ah but it's the red wine, no? Italians drink red wine too...

Evolutionarily speaking, moving 100-200 years ago from Northwestern Europe to America is but a tick on the evolutionary clock. Those ancestors went from a latitude that averages 55 north to one that is around 40 north. That's a big difference. For comparison on the North American continent, 55 north in Canada is the Southern border of the Nunavik province, which has a high of 60F in the summer and a low of -20F in the winter. It can't even get up to a warm temperature in the summer. Transplant those Northwestern European ethnic groups suddenly into a warmer American climate and they are fish out of water: they still genetically have a higher metabolism but in the warmer climate they don't need it, so there is a metabolic conflict that ends up in blood sugar crashes if they don't eat enough heavier protein and fat-rich foods to slow down their overactive metabolism. So in the Southern US, it may not just be the fried food and physical inactivity that is doing them in, it could also be that they live in an area that's far too warm for their intrinsic metabolism.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

richj8990 said:


> ….. you have conditioned your nervous system to predict a blood sugar crash before it happens, which means your symptoms may be worse than the actual blood sugar level crash itself --- the glucose level could still be OK at 70-80 mg/dl but it feels like it's 50-60.


Very thoughtful and informative reply thank you. 

i found this particularly interesting.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

That's not how your body works (using fat as a source of energy). You're right that you need proper hydration and nutrition.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Bassmantweed said:


> Very thoughtful and informative reply thank you.
> 
> i found this particularly interesting.


I think you’d be better off going to a doctor than asking people with no credentials on the internet but sure


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Speaking of doctors, the OP might want to check out this book.









Lies My Doctor Told Me Second Edition: Berry, Ken: 9781628603781: Amazon.com: Books


Lies My Doctor Told Me Second Edition [Berry, Ken] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Lies My Doctor Told Me Second Edition



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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

Find a GOOD doctor and get a full blood panel/physical. Past 45 years old you can’t screw around and guess/play internet Dr. If something feels off, there’s usually a good reason. Also when you Dr pulls blood work get testosterone tested as well. Normal blood work usually does not look at test levels! I found out 3 years ago I was type II diabetic, even with meds and huge diet change (low/no carbs and sugar) I struggled with weight loss and energy levels. Luckily my Dr is also my best friend from HS and he takes to time to really dig. We did testosterone check and bingo. 200 - normal is 600-1000. Got on TRT and pounds have fallen off and energy levels are back to normal like in my 30s. 

I can lose fat and build muscle again as well, so look at everything! And don’t be embarrassed about testosterone levels/TRT therapy. I sing it from the roof tops now as without it I’d still be overweight and tired all the time. Just know with TRT - keep it below 700 and blood thickness under 50 and you won’t have any issues per my Dr who also does TRT. Worth checking at the VERY least. Good luck, report back what Dr says.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Brules said:


> Find a GOOD doctor and get a full blood panel/physical. Past 45 years old you can’t screw around and guess/play internet Dr. If something feels off, there’s usually a good reason. Also when you Dr pulls blood work get testosterone tested as well. Normal blood work usually does not look at test levels! I found out 3 years ago I was type II diabetic, even with meds and huge diet change (low/no carbs and sugar) I struggled with weight loss and energy levels. Luckily my Dr is also my best friend from HS and he takes to time to really dig. We did testosterone check and bingo. 200 - normal is 600-1000. Got on TRT and pounds have fallen off and energy levels are back to normal like in my 30s.
> 
> I can lose fat and build muscle again as well, so look at everything! And don’t be embarrassed about testosterone levels/TRT therapy. I sing it from the roof tops now as without it I’d still be overweight and tired all the time. Just know with TRT - keep it below 700 and blood thickness under 50 and you won’t have any issues per my Dr who also does TRT. Worth checking at the VERY least. Good luck, report back what Dr says.


I will say this: find a GOOD doctor for diagnosis, then if it turns out to be a blood sugar or sodium issue, find a GOOD licensed nutritionist who can help you. 

The last one has been a struggle for me. A lot of them make assumptions that you know how to eat (or your SO does), and it’s a long journey to figure this **** out, despite what some people say. And none of this is imagined, because it’s what you’re experiencing. 

Recently, I hit some struggles too. For me, a lot of it relates to sugar intake, as well as caffeine. I’m in the process of cutting back caffeine significantly, and it’s a big help so far. It’ll be interesting to see what it does for riding season. That’s when i have to increase my carbohydrates and sugar to keep from bonking on longish rides.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

stripes said:


> i have to increase my carbohydrates and sugar to keep from bonking on longish rides.


If you stop eating carbs, your body learns to burn it's own fat, and you never bonk. It's like a super-power once you get it worked out.

.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

_CJ said:


> If you stop eating carbs, your body learns to burn it's own fat, and you never bonk. It's like a super-power once you get it worked out.


I can't cut them out entirely. I have to reduce them. Cutting them out entirely cold turkey really fucked up my system big time, and everyone is different.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> If you stop eating carbs, your body learns to burn it's own fat, and you never bonk. It's like a super-power once you get it worked out..





I think that can work well for lsd but not convinced it will for longer high intensity rides. At any rate carbs certainly aren't your enemy in that situation, same as putting gas in the tank imo.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

I cut carbs for normal everyday. If riding I’ll eat them as when you are doing Heavy cardio/physical type activity when you eat carbs then your body will instantly use them and not store them as fat. If diabetic you def need them to keep from sugar crashing.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Brules said:


> I cut carbs for normal everyday. If riding I’ll eat them as when you are doing Heavy cardio/physical type activity when you eat carbs then your body will instantly use them and not store them as fat. If diabetic you def need them to keep from sugar crashing.


Yep, or any other blood sugar issue. Sugar crashes are really scary, and trying to do no-carb wasn't the solution for me. While I know it's the in-thing to do no carb and IF, it doesn't work for everyone.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

If you are doing any kind of intensity, carbs are your only option.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

These are all great suggestions but maybe adding common sense will help. 
You want to ride 3 hrs do it. Just do not decide the distance and elevation.
What about starting from scratch.
You put on your helmet, your shoes and go ride.
Just carry a multitool, some dates and some peanuts.
Forget any distance device, any phone, just remember your address.
If you are an athlete change coach.
Do what you can and if that does not make you smile, try badminton or whatever.
If you want to do more just make healthy choices.
At 64 i do more than many my age but some at 70 can beat me.
I still sleep well knowing i am not the best.
They only # i know is i ride about 3.5 H daily.
It sounds like you want to achieve what you could if you were healthy.
Do choose to eat and drink healthy, it will happen.
Why not start by fasting for a week? Just plain water.
Go visit people with diplomas, they extracted $ from my mom regularly for 70 years.
Yesterday she turned 90 but zero quality of life for too many years.
She is a pillsss popper.
Your choice man, you are an adult.


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## DannyHuynh (Sep 13, 2011)

i used to eat or put some sort of shake or smoothie on my stomach before a ride. I would still bonk after around 16-18 miles in. I only drank water in my hydration pack. Then i started putting sports drinks in a bottle and drinking that during the ride and the bonks disappeared. Then I tried riding on an empty stomach but drinking sport drink during rides and I still don't bonk. Maybe you should try a good sports drink that feeds you easily absorbable carbs and minerals like sodium and magnesium and potassium. I use Cytomax. It seems to work for me. Im sure all the brands are generally the same ingredients.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think that can work well for lsd but not convinced it will for longer high intensity rides. At any rate carbs certainly aren't your enemy in that situation, same as putting gas in the tank imo.


Going low carb hasn't effected my speed, according to Strava. I can still lay down times on par or better than my old sugar fueled days of 5+ years ago. There was certainly an adjustment period, but the ability to ride at a high intensity level is there when I want it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Going low carb hasn't effected my speed, according to Strava. I can still lay down times on par or better than my old sugar fueled days of 5+ years ago.



That 750w motor probably helps some eh?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

All carbs aren't the same, avoid the processed ones but real food carbs are your friend.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

chazpat said:


> All carbs aren't the same, avoid the processed ones but real food carbs are your friend.


I agree billions of poor humans mainly eat rice or corn or potatoes.
Guess what? They do not pop pills, do not visit doctors often, do not try to apply the latest fad from a book
that was written to get rich.
That is what i have been doing for 30 years and it works.
Why not do what has been working for centuries?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> That 750w motor probably helps some eh?


It does!....because I spend more time riding, and less time on the couch, so I'm in better shape than I would be if I only rode analog. 

also, it's only a 250w motor, like virtually all other mid-drive class 1 eMTB's on the market that serve dual purpose duty in the USA and EU.

.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> also, it's only a 250w motor, like virtually all other mid-drive class 1 eMTB's on the market that serve dual purpose duty in the USA and EU.


\



Most class 1's will do at least 500w, you got robbed!


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## Stanceslao (Nov 5, 2021)

_CJ said:


> You need to train your body to burn it's fat stores through a diet that's low in carbohydrates (keto, carnivore, paleo, etc.) and intermittent fasting (12-23 hours without eating every day). Once you're "fat adapted", you won't need anything but water and electrolytes to ride as long as you want, and really, for rides of less than 2-3 hours, you're probably drinking too much water anyhow.
> 
> .


^^^ This ^^^

Also find Dr. Stein Ekberg on youtube, he has tons of informative videos about intermittent fasting, blood sugar, etc...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Stanceslao said:


> ^^^ This ^^^
> 
> Also find Dr. Stein Ekberg on youtube, he has tons of informative videos about intermittent fasting, blood sugar, etc...




No disrespect to chiropractors but I'm sure not taking his word as the end all about nutrition. I don't know much about him but he does seem to be somewhat of a carb fear monger.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> No disrespect to chiropractors but I'm sure not taking his word as the end all about nutrition. I don't know much about him but he does seem to be somewhat of a carb fear monger.


He doesn’t even make the bottom of this pyramid:


__
http://instagr.am/p/CO8bczzh-k1/


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> No disrespect to chiropractors but I'm sure not taking his word as the end all about nutrition. I don't know much about him but he does seem to be somewhat of a carb fear monger.


He has his own shop on Amazon, "Master Your Health, Products to Help You Get Healthy" and sells "Whole Food Supplements" on his website. How's he gonna sell this stuff if he just tells you to eat healthy? Don't you know people evolved to need pills and supplements?

His practice is also 45 minutes from me.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

_CJ said:


> It does!....because I spend more time riding, and less time on the couch, so I'm in better shape than I would be if I only rode analog.
> 
> also, it's only a 250w motor, like virtually all other mid-drive class 1 eMTB's on the market that serve dual purpose duty in the USA and EU.


Hold on a minute, you're on an e bike & you're making statements like this??



_CJ said:


> If you stop eating carbs, your body learns to burn it's own fat, and you never bonk. It's like a super-power once you get it worked out.


And this?



_CJ said:


> Going low carb hasn't effected my speed, according to Strava. I can still lay down times on par or better than my old sugar fueled days of 5+ years ago. There was certainly an adjustment period, but the ability to ride at a high intensity level is there when I want it.


I think you may have a much different definition of "high intensity" than the rest of us. I don't doubt you can ride for quite some time at a relatively relaxed pace without carbs, I do it often. I've been intermittent fasting to cut weight & I think it's helping my body burn fat. I'm doing mild strength training & eating much more protein than normal to minimize muscle loss. My body feels very different right now, stronger, more energetic & just quite good. However, there is absolutely no way my body can do much high intensity work without carbs. If I'm going to be working in training zones above tempo, I simply need carbs or I can't do the work. As I continue to reduce body fat, I'll stick with what I'm doing but when I get close to target body fat percentage, I'll continue doing a fasted portion of a training ride for 2+ hours weekly but I'll be adding carbs back in & start doing high intensity work to get ready for a few races I have on the calendar. The primary fuel for that work will be & has to be carbs.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

I posted a link to a blurb about a book by Matt Fitzgerald called the Endurance Diet. He did loads of research about the eating habits of elite level endurance athletes world wide & found that one of the core habits was adequate carbohydrate intake sufficient to fuel their training energy requirements. You won't find info about fat fueled high performance endurance athletes because elite cyclists, swimmers, rowers, etc. don't rely on fat for fuel.

Mens Journal blurb about Endurance Diet

Years ago, I used Fitzgerald's Racing Weight books to learn about losing weight with sports nutrition specifically in mind & then how to eat for performance. It taught me about an initial period of loss that promotes a higher protein intake, strength work & lower intensity training efforts to include weekly fasted training rides. I still use these methods to lose unwanted offseason weight a decade later.


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## slim (Jan 21, 2004)

Another good book explaining refined carbohydrates / sugar breakdown effects on our blood sugar and energy levels is Dr. Jason Fung's the Diabetes Code. The book is much more than diabetes and weight loss. He does state to work with your doctor before beginning any of the suggested methods because everyone is different.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

People who espouse low to no-carb diets for athletes (or anyone who takes care of themselves) is to immediately be discounted.


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## Stanceslao (Nov 5, 2021)

.....


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## Stanceslao (Nov 5, 2021)

Le Duke said:


> He doesn’t even make the bottom of this pyramid:
> 
> 
> __
> ...





chazpat said:


> He has his own shop on Amazon, "Master Your Health, Products to Help You Get Healthy" and sells "Whole Food Supplements" on his website. How's he gonna sell this stuff if he just tells you to eat healthy? Don't you know people evolved to need pills and supplements?
> 
> His practice is also 45 minutes from me.



How can you discount what he has to say? Many 'doctors" on youtube say the same thing, I just like his video's because it's direct to the point unlike some, and I have watched many. Are you also doctors ? Just asking, because if you are not, then I will trust what he says more than what you say against him ...


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

i would first see a Dr. You can do a low / no carb diet but realy learn about it and how athetes do it. There is an adaption phase with low to moderate effort riding. Than carbs are used for hard effort long duration rides. Im a big advocate of Keto but 15+ miles with lots of max efforts Ill time carbs around these times.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Stanceslao said:


> How can you discount what he has to say? Many 'doctors" on youtube say the same thing, I just like his video's because it's direct to the point unlike some, and I have watched many. Are you also doctors ? Just asking, because if you are not, then I will trust what he says more than what you say against him ...


Well, he's a chiropractor so not really what I consider a medical doctor. And I'm always suspicious when someone is selling pills and supplements to go along with what they are claiming. Eat right and you don't need that stuff. But hey, if you want to follow him, have at it.

I also live 10 minutes from Life University btw, one of the biggest chiro schools around, they are a dime a dozen around here.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> \
> 
> 
> 
> Most class 1's will do at least 500w, you got robbed!


560 peak watts, the nominal rating (power the motor can sustain for an extended period) is 250w.


.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

redwarrior said:


> Hold on a minute, you're on an e bike & you're making statements like this??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Believe it or not, some of us ride both analog, and digital. No, I'm not comparing the two.

I raced at a very high level in the distant past, so I doubt we have different definitions of "high intensity". I did long 6+ hour training rides back in the day without food, but also depended on carbs like you because I wasn't fat adapted.

To be clear, I'm not saying carbs don't work, or won't allow for higher intensity efforts, but that doesn't mean they're good for you, or "healthy". They're essentially like doping imho, and recreational riders should be more worried about overall health than speed.


.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> No disrespect to chiropractors but I'm sure not taking his word as the end all about nutrition. I don't know much about him but he does seem to be somewhat of a carb fear monger.


Here you go. MD saying the same thing.



https://www.youtube.com/c/KenDBerryMD




.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Bassmantweed said:


> I simply can’t jump on my bike and ride anytime I want. I am 6’6” and 240 lbs. not thin but not fat. I do have a bit of a belly.
> 
> i have to make sure I have plenty of water and have eaten something before I ride it I just tank.
> My body must be really bad at using stored fat because I feel like crap if I don’t prep myself.
> ...


To be honest, the only true remedy is to get on a healthy diet and exercise. Like you said, at 6'6 240lbs certainly isn't fat, but that's a lot of weight to carry, and it'll only get more difficult as time goes by.

I'm a big believer of "you are what you eat" and having a healthy pre and post meal is important. Try drinking at least a liter (4 cups) of water before you ride. I'll eat pasta the night before, but some people do better without carbs. Keep coffee/caffeine minimal before your ride, and bring some orange slices and nuts along for your ride.

If you try shortcuts though, like only taking an energy bar or protein shake before a ride, that's not really gonna help much. Unfortunately there are no shortcuts.

And just for the record, I'm far from peak fitness level, usually the winter I kinda let myself go a bit, but when I keep fit, I always feel better and my diet is the reason why.

Sleep is important too, but if you want lasting results, try getting down to 220lbs.

EDIT: Like others said, best to take advice from a doctor. Glad you decided on that route!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Crankout said:


> People who espouse low to no-carb diets for athletes (or anyone who takes care of themselves) is to immediately be discounted.


10 years ago I did some pretty low carb extreme diets to build the look I was after, and it absolutely worked as I was ripped. These diets are for 'super hero' aesthetics however and do not result in the best athletic performance. For proof, look at nearly any pro athlete of nearly any sport. However with these diets, even just going for looks, you can go to far as I found out.

That sort of diet is not an endurance diet and no amount of 'fat adaption' can change that significantly.

It does crack me up around here when I see people giving all of this 'diet advise' and all the improvements they have experienced and then they casually mention that they are 'down to 23% bf' or whatever. Literally a fourth of their body weight is lard and they are online providing diet advise. For perspective I'm essentially the chubbiest I've been in my 50 years at 12-13% bf currently.

Be cautious from whom you take diet advise online from.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

NS-NV said:


> When I started intermittent fasting, I already had a low sugar/ low carb diet (not keto tho), and 23% body fat. I also started measuring my blood glucose and ketone levels daily.
> 
> I was shocked how long it took for my body to adapt, and my blood glucose to drop during my fasted state (glucose down, ketones up = bye bye dadbod). It took a few weeks. Once I got to that point tho, I started loosing fat, without increasing my caloric mix (what I took in, and how much I burned). I got injured, but that positive trend still held for a couple weeks (I was still I-Fasting). I got down to 19% body fat.
> 
> Changes in what you eat, keto, intermittent fasting are all ways to get to that point. A blood glucose meter will help you figure out which one works for you (I’ve done them all, and IF works best for me). When I plateau, I go back to checking my blood regularly, and find that I’m not getting that drop by the end of my fasts.


I'm a huge believer in intermittent fasting. I had ulcerative colitis, got my entire lower intestine removed, so diet plays a huge roll in my life. I also started fasting all day every Wednesday. I don't know the science behind it, but I know how I feel, and since I started doing it my overall digestion has improved.

Another thing that helped is I started eating until I'm satisfied, not til I'm full. It shrinks your stomach and eventually less will make you full.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> 10 years ago I did some pretty low carb extreme diets to build the look I was after, and it absolutely worked as I was ripped. These diets are for 'super hero' aesthetics however and do not result in the best athletic performance. For proof, look at nearly any pro athlete of nearly any sport. However with these diets, even just going for looks, you can go to far as I found out.
> 
> That sort of diet is not an endurance diet and no amount of 'fat adaption' can change that significantly.
> 
> ...


I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but there's people who know about proper exercise/nutrition but are overweight. It's like the doctor smoking outside the hospital, or football coach who never actually played football.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

_CJ said:


> Believe it or not, some of us ride both analog, and digital. No, I'm not comparing the two.


Sorry about the way that came off -I didn't need two questions marks or the snarkyness. My opinion on ebikes is evolving past my initial knee jerk reaction. In any case, my thinking was that a boatload of e assist, you probably weren't at all that high of an intensity level.



_CJ said:


> To be clear, I'm not saying carbs don't work, or won't allow for higher intensity efforts, but that doesn't mean they're good for you, or "healthy". They're essentially like doping imho, and recreational riders should be more worried about overall health than speed.


I don't disagree with this, generally. A rider going out for a 3 hour ride once a week does not require 48ounces of poweraide to get through a ride.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

So much nutrition science! Awesome. I'm too old now to indulge in what me and my friends (in our early 20's) used to call "bonk training" - 

Consisted of a couple of strong cups of coffee and a few bong hits before a ride. Obviously less than 2 hours, or we would have to stop and eat something.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

_CJ said:


> Believe it or not, some of us ride both analog, and digital. No, I'm not comparing the two.
> 
> I raced at a very high level in the distant past, so I doubt we have different definitions of "high intensity". I did long 6+ hour training rides back in the day without food, but also depended on carbs like you because I wasn't fat adapted.
> 
> ...


Again I'm a big beliver in being fat adapted. but carbs them self are not unhealty. even your fat adapted athletes use carbs during the need for peak perfomance. you dont need carbs for your daily life and to sit on the couch, this is when carbs are bad. a quick after work ride or a ride under 80 cadance you dont need carbs. But 90+ cadance for long duration takes at least 6 months to adapt to on keto. Or you risk just burning muscle tissue.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

mlx john said:


> So much nutrition science! Awesome. I'm too old now to indulge in what me and my friends (in our early 20's) used to call "bonk training" -
> 
> Consisted of a couple of strong cups of coffee and a few bong hits before a ride. Obviously less than 2 hours, or we would have to stop and eat something.


We used to take "Barker Bong Hits" in college. Coincidentally me and my roommates didn't have class at 11:00 one year (that's what time the Price is Right started). Back when Napster was the most popular thing on campus and [email protected] was still available!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Cerberus75 said:


> Again I'm a big beliver in being fat adapted. but carbs them self are not unhealty. even your fat adapted athletes use carbs during the need for peak perfomance. you dont need carbs for your daily life and to sit on the couch, this is when carbs are bad. a quick after work ride or a ride under 80 cadance you dont need carbs. But 90+ cadance for long duration takes at least 6 months to adapt to on keto. Or you risk just burning muscle tissue.


There seems to be this ongoing thing of comparing what top competitive athletes do to win races being an example of optimum health, but it's not, at all. It's like say that we should all be running nitro methane in our cars, because that's what the fastest drag racers use in their cars. Never mind that they have to tear down the engine and rebuild it after almost every 1/4 mile run.

Carbs cause inflammation, inflammation causes damage, therefore inflammation is bad. Hell, even just riding at "high intensity" for long periods is bad, regardless of what you eat.

I'm not saying people shouldn't ride fast, and never eat sugar. I mean, you gotta live right? I just bought some Paczki's for fat Tuesday, and I'm going to enjoy the hell out of them, but I'm not going to pretend they're anything other than what they are.

And not specific to your reply, but there's a lot of people here telling the OP he needs to "eat healthy", without defining what they think that is. I know what I used to think it meant, and what doctors told us was "healthy", and as it turned out, that was 100% wrong. Science evolves, and anyone who thinks low fat, lean meat (or no meat), with lots of grains and fruit is a good idea, really needs to stop talking and start reading about how bad that advise is/was, and go study what modern science is finding is actually "eating healthy".

.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I'll follow sources such as the Mayo Clinic rather than some "modern science" doc on YouTube.









Nutrition rules that will fuel your workout


What you eat, and when you eat it, has a huge influence on your available energy level and how well you recover from a workout.




www.mayoclinic.org


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Science evolves, and anyone who thinks low fat, lean meat (or no meat), with lots of grains and fruit is a good idea, really needs to stop talking and start reading about how bad that advise was/is, and go study what modern science is finding is actually "eating healthy".



Are you saying it's unhealthy to not eat meat?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Are you saying it's unhealthy to not eat meat?


Yes, without question. It's virtually impossible to get all the nutrients required for good health without animal products. This isn't even in question anymore. Anything to the contrary is either outdated, or misinformed, or propaganda from those who have taken on veganism as a religion, or part of a religion.


.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Yes, without question. It's virtually impossible to get all the nutrients required for good health without animal products. This isn't even in question anymore. Anything to the contrary is either outdated, or misinformed, or propaganda from those who have taken on veganism as a religion, or part of a religion.




lol, you've been watching too much Dr Ekberg. Millions of healthy vegans and much peer reviewed science strongly disagree with you.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Doctors aren't nutritionists.
I'd rather look to cultures that live the longest or better yet live the healthiest into old age for nutrition advice. It's really not that complicated. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

WHALENARD said:


> Doctors aren't nutritionists.
> I'd rather look to cultures that live the longest or better yet live the healthiest into old age for nutrition advice. It's really not that complicated.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Neither are overweight amateur bicyclists. 

* not directed at you just adding to the discussion.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Billions are healthy without meat but you want proof?
Look at the numbers of rich doctors where people eat meat.
You can be a meat eater just like some are smokers.
Saying your formula is the best, well you will never be able to prove it
so keep your belief but keep it quiet it is wrong.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

As some say they cant do keto. I cant be vegan. I did it "right" and had the worst enery, loss of lean tissue, high inflamation and horrific lipids. I understand from an ethical point of veiw...but not a health point of veiw.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

_CJ said:


> There seems to be this ongoing thing of comparing what top competitive athletes do to win races being an example of optimum health, but it's not, at all. It's like say that we should all be running nitro methane in our cars, because that's what the fastest drag racers use in their cars. Never mind that they have to tear down the engine and rebuild it after almost every 1/4 mile run.
> 
> Carbs cause inflammation, inflammation causes damage, therefore inflammation is bad. Hell, even just riding at "high intensity" for long periods is bad, regardless of what you eat.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone needs to list a meal plan, nobody here is trying to be his dietician, and people have different goals and expectations. I think for an online forum, we can all figure out what "healthy diet" means without going into specifics. 

Not trying to be combative, just a disagreement, but basic rules still apply. We can't account for everyone's allergies or specific circumstances, but eating healthy isn't just about what to eat, but what not and when not to eat. Less alcohol and soda, more water, cut out the midnight ice cream and eat more vegetables, exercise and good sleep habits. Those are pretty much universal, and we're just sharing our personal experiences to somebody who solicited advice. 

Most posts could be summed up with "ask your local bike shop" or "ask your doctor" but the whole point of this website is to have dialogue and share opinions. Maybe somebody didn't know what keto was, or in my case, learned a bit about diabetes I wouldn't have otherwise known.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cerberus75 said:


> As some say they cant do keto. I cant be vegan. I did it "right" and had the worst enery, loss of lean tissue, high inflamation and horrific lipids. I understand from an ethical point of veiw...but not a health point of veiw.



By definition vegans are vegan only for ethical reasons, health considerations aren't a driving factor.

I know it didn't work out for you but there is a lot of solid science that points to a thoughtful plant based diet as being one of the healthiest options available so from a health standpoint I think it's generally good.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

2021Mach6 said:


> I don't think anyone needs to list a meal plan, nobody here is trying to be his dietician, and people have different goals and expectations. I think for an online forum, we can all figure out what "healthy diet" means without going into specifics.
> 
> Not trying to be combative, just a disagreement, but basic rules still apply. We can't account for everyone's allergies or specific circumstances, but eating healthy isn't just about what to eat, but what not and when not to eat. Less alcohol and soda, more water, cut out the midnight ice cream and eat more vegetables, exercise and good sleep habits. Those are pretty much universal, and we're just sharing our personal experiences to somebody who solicited advice.
> 
> Most posts could be summed up with "ask your local bike shop" or "ask your doctor" but the whole point of this website is to have dialogue and share opinions. Maybe somebody didn't know what keto was, or in my case, learned a bit about diabetes I wouldn't have otherwise known.


I do agree.
About 10 months ago i asked about a terribly itchy skin.
Some answered go see a doc.
Well i knew (or i was confident) with the number of readers i had a better chance.
Thanks to Sparty he had a similar situation and he gave me good advice.
Since last july i have no skin problem.
For me many forums are about asking and sometimes about answering.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> By definition vegans are vegan only for ethical reasons, health considerations aren't a driving factor.
> 
> I know it didn't work out for you but there is a lot of solid science that points to a thoughtful plant based diet as being one of the healthiest options available so from a health standpoint I think it's generally good.


Im not arguing, that is why I tried it. Seeds and beans are highly inflamitory and this effects some more than others. I can eat a ton of saturated fat from ethically raised sorces and have perfect blood test results while a freind of mine dose better on a plant baced diet.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cerberus75 said:


> Im not arguing, that is why I tried it. Seeds and beans are highly inflamitory and this effects some more than others. I can eat a ton of saturated fat from ethically raised sorces and have perfect blood test results while a freind of mine dose better on a plant baced diet.



I'm not arguing either but research has shown that for most beans are anti-inflammatory. Nuts & seeds can cause inflammation for some people (seems like they did for you). For most meat is highly inflammatory.


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## Stanceslao (Nov 5, 2021)

chazpat said:


> Well, he's a chiropractor so not really what I consider a medical doctor. And I'm always suspicious when someone is selling pills and supplements to go along with what they are claiming. Eat right and you don't need that stuff. But hey, if you want to follow him, have at it.
> 
> I also live 10 minutes from Life University btw, one of the biggest chiro schools around, they are a dime a dozen around here.


How about the famous Dr. Gundry from California who is a medical doctor, and he says the same things as Chiropractor Ekberg? Will you believe Dr. Gundry? Dr. Gundry also sells supplements, even olive oil, etc...

He also have guest on his podcast/youtube channel that say the same things Chiropractor Ekberg is saying...



https://www.youtube.com/c/DrGundry


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Try intermittent fasting. I’m saying FASTING not starving. Start small and work your way up.
Few will support fasting, most will purport on myths. Be mentally strong, amigo.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not arguing either but research has shown that for most beans are anti-inflammatory. Nuts & seeds can cause inflammation for some people (seems like they did for you). For most meat is highly inflammatory.


Most of the time meat is inflammatory due to not properly raised. Grassfed vs Corn fed, wild vs farm raised ect.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

33red said:


> I do agree.
> About 10 months ago i asked about a terribly itchy skin.
> Some answered go see a doc.
> Well i knew (or i was confident) with the number of readers i had a better chance.
> ...


I can relate, Sparty cured my athlete's foot 🙃


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

33red said:


> I agree billions of poor humans mainly eat rice or corn or potatoes.
> Guess what? They do not pop pills, do not visit doctors often, do not try to apply the latest fad from a book
> that was written to get rich.
> That is what i have been doing for 30 years and it works.
> Why not do what has been working for centuries?


Problem in the US though is our grains etc are SO over processed and bleached etc that there is literally nothing good left in them. Same with Rice. They’ve genetically modified them so much and then over process them. In Japan they eat tons of rice with little to No obesity vs the US. Same in Europe. So I avoid them here because they are nutritionally deficient and just make us fat. It sucks.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> Be cautious from whom you take diet advise online from.


This topic is a 'Top 5' MTBR Forum thread-length generator.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Well, he's a chiropractor so not really what I consider a medical doctor.


Picard would like to know if a chiro can cure an itchy ball sack.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk



I love his Brule stuff...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Brules said:


> Problem in the US though is our grains etc are SO over processed and bleached etc that there is literally nothing good left in them. Same with Rice. They’ve genetically modified them so much and then over process them. In Japan they eat tons of rice with little to No obesity vs the US. Same in Europe. So I avoid them here because they are nutritionally deficient and just make us fat. It sucks.






Easily avoided, just visit your local co-op grocery store.

Also the Japanese population has gotten larger since the advent of bleached, processed rice


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

EKram said:


> Try intermittent fasting. I’m saying FASTING not starving. Start small and work your way up.
> Few will support fasting, most will purport on myths. Be mentally strong, amigo.


This isn't bad advise. There's a growing body of evidence that suggests it doesn't matter what you eat, if you only eat once a day.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> lol, you've been watching too much Dr Ekberg. Millions of healthy vegans and much peer reviewed science strongly disagree with you.


"Peer reviewed science" relative to vegan diets almost always compares a poor diet, or standard American diet, to veganism, so yes of course, veganism comes out the winner. Unfortunately, it's not sustainable for the vast majority of those who try it.









Most Vegetarians Lapse After Only a Year


The vast majority of vegetarians return to eating meat




www.smithsonianmag.com





"In a survey of around 11,000 Americans, the organization found that 84 percent of vegetarians and vegans return to eating meat, says the Huffington Post. Most lapse within a year, while nearly a third don't last more than three months. "

.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

WHALENARD said:


> I'd rather look to cultures that live the longest or better yet live the healthiest into old age for nutrition advice. It's really not that complicated.


Be careful with that one. Do you know what most the centenarians in the "blue zones" (places where people live longer) have in common? Pension fraud. 

All these idiot scientists spent decades researching their diets, and it never occured to them to verify these people's identities. 🤣


.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> "Peer reviewed science" relative to vegan diets almost always compares a poor diet, or standard American diet, to veganism, so yes of course, veganism comes out the winner. Unfortunately, it's not sustainable for the vast majority of those who try it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A similar percentage (probably more) of people who try keto fail to stick with it too. That doesn't prove much.

I found the transition super easy, no difficulties whatsoever and I remain in very good health. Especially for someone in a diet that's impossible to achieve proper nutrition on 🙃


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> By definition vegans are vegan only for ethical reasons, health considerations aren't a driving factor.
> 
> I know it didn't work out for you but there is a lot of solid science that points to a thoughtful plant based diet as being one of the healthiest options available so from a health standpoint I think it's generally good.


Whose definition?

Perhaps in the beginning some folks choose to be vegetarian or vegan for ethical considerations, but many if not most do it because it's healthier.

I'm bridging the gap t being vegan, for me it's mostly a health consideration, but I've always considered the consumption of animal products as being very bad for the environment.

If we really want to reverse negative global changes in the environment, cutting back on consumption of animal products is one sure way to help.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

2021Mach6 said:


> I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but there's people who know about proper exercise/nutrition but are overweight. It's like the doctor smoking outside the hospital, or football coach who never actually played football.


I gotta agree, I'm a medical provider and I'm surrounded by people who say one thing and do another, BUT, the knowledge they are sharing can still be valid.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

_CJ said:


> "Peer reviewed science" relative to vegan diets almost always compares a poor diet, or standard American diet, to veganism, so yes of course, veganism comes out the winner. Unfortunately, it's not sustainable for the vast majority of those who try it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's actually really interesting. Surprised it's that high ... I think a lot of vegans just go through a phase, and eventually justify going back to eating meat with contingencies (humanely raised, no hormones, grass fed, etc). 

I started eating local foods about 10 years ago, and it ain't easy and especially nowadays, it ain't cheap. Amazing that eating "real" food requires so much effort, and IMO that stuff should be taught to kids starting in the 1st grade.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Crankout said:


> Picard would like to know if a chiro can cure an itchy ball sack.


Well maybe Sparty can help with that, too!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> Whose definition?



The most common ones as far as I know. If you Google "vegan definition" most of the ones that come up specifically mention ethical considerations as a reason for being vegan and most say little or nothing about health considerations. It really doesn't matter much but a common way to differentiate them is plant based diet (health) or vegan (ethics)

I do think a plant based diet is healthier and definitely better for the environment but the main reason I stopped eating animals was for ethical reasons. Win/win/win for me.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

2021Mach6 said:


> That's actually really interesting. Surprised it's that high ... I think a lot of vegans just go through a phase, and eventually justify going back to eating meat with contingencies (humanely raised, no hormones, grass fed, etc).
> 
> I started eating local foods about 10 years ago, and it ain't easy and especially nowadays, it ain't cheap. Amazing that eating "real" food requires so much effort, and IMO that stuff should be taught to kids starting in the 1st grade.


How does "I think" equate to fact?

I've always wondered how perceptions influence what people think, kinda wierd that perceptions can overcome facts.

I've been a vegetarian continuously for thirty five years, my wife is going on twenty years, my mom is going on twenty five years, my son in law is vegan from birth (31 yo now) ... doesn't seem like your perception matches my facts.

Maybe it's due to what we eat


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> the main reason I stopped eating animals was for ethical reasons.


So how do you rationalize the millions of creatures being killed so that you don't have to eat them? All the pesticides killing millions (billions?) of insects. Combines grinding up millions of mice, rabbits, gophers, etc. which end up in your food by the way. All the run-off poisoning the water supply? All the water being wasted, period? mmmmm, almond milk, pay no attention to the water wasted on it's production?

On the other hand, a person could kill one cow/buffalo/elk a year to eat, and be in exceptional health.

And the environment thing is just complete nonsense when you look at the totality of the effects of farming vs, ranching.

I think the only way to be a truely ethical vegan would be as a "fruititarian" who only eats wild fruits that have dropped from their trees voluntarily. I read about a guy doing that. His health of course has been in steady decline. He probably dead by now, or eating meat again. 🤣


.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

I would be vegan if it worked for me. I eat a lot of venison. also a lot of eggs from chicken Ive meet personally. Same with grass fed beef.


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## Stanceslao (Nov 5, 2021)

So can anyone explain what are the ethical reasons for eating or not eating meat? Thanks


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> So how do you rationalize the millions of creatures being killed so that you don't have to eat them? All the pesticides killing millions (billions?) of insects. Combines grinding up millions of mice, rabbits, gophers, etc. which end up in your food by the way. All the run-off poisoning the water supply? All the water being wasted, period? mmmmm, almond milk, pay no attention to the water wasted on it's production?
> 
> On the other hand, a person could kill one cow/buffalo/elk a year to eat, and be in exceptional health.
> 
> ...




That's super easy to debunk with facts and math. Suffice it to say that most plants grown in the us are used to feed livestock and as far as total animals killed between vegans and meat eaters isn't even close. Also over 100 gallons of water used to produce 1 oz of beef vs about 20 gallons for 1 oz of almonds. 





Stanceslao said:


> So can anyone explain what are the ethical reasons for eating or not eating meat? Thanks



Really?


----------



## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Easily avoided, just visit your local co-op grocery store.
> 
> Also the Japanese population has gotten larger since the advent of bleached, processed rice


And since the inclusion of the standard American diet type crap.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Stanceslao said:


> How about the famous Dr. Gundry from California who is a medical doctor, and he says the same things as Chiropractor Ekberg? Will you believe Dr. Gundry? Dr. Gundry also sells supplements, even olive oil, etc...
> 
> He also have guest on his podcast/youtube channel that say the same things Chiropractor Ekberg is saying...
> 
> ...


I've looked into him in the past. Just google "Dr. Gundry scam"

Here's a little of what you'll find:

Gundry

cherry-picks and misrepresents studies that he references
Uses flawed studies
pushes expensive junk supplements, like "Lectin Shield" and "Total Restore" with unproven benefits
His supplements includes something he invented called vitamin G6 and a "lectin shield" that's "designed to neutralize the effects of lectins." Priced on his website at $79.99 (last checked). And six jars of Vital Reds cost $254.70.
He pushes for-profit books; like "_The Longevity Paradox_", filled with junk science
Dr. Gundry's book, "_Diet Evolution_", published in 2008, doesn't even mention lectins... which is the basis of his claims.
Gundry targets less people who are vulnerable to scams such as those who are not educated in science and want to lose weight and are interested in dieting, keto, intermittent fasting and health supplements in general.
His theories ignores a hundred years of credible scientific research and studies conducted and peer-reviewed by credible researchers and universities.


Again, a snake oil salesman.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chazpat said:


> I've looked into him in the past. Just google "Dr. Gundry scam"
> 
> Here's a little of what you'll find:
> 
> ...





Yeah definitely smells like snake oil. It's like LeDukey said way back when in this thread, you gotta look at the quality of science pyramid. I Don't mean to keep thumping my chest but a plant based diet holds up pretty well in that regard.


----------



## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Stanceslao said:


> So can anyone explain what are the ethical reasons for eating or not eating meat? Thanks


Stand at the business end of a slaughterhouse for a while and watch sentient creatures screaming and dying in terror.
It goes on hour after hour, day after day, week after week, year after year.
Auschwitz for animals.


----------



## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> How does "I think" equate to fact?
> 
> I've always wondered how perceptions influence what people think, kinda wierd that perceptions can overcome facts.
> 
> ...


When did I say it was fact? I specifically used the words "I think" and "most" because that's obviously an opinion ... I mean, I literally used the "IMO" 🙃 I mean gimme a break. And just cause your family is vegan doesn't mean everyone is or everyone sticks to it. I know A LOT more people that have tried going vegan and quit, then stuck with it for decades. That IS a fact, which is why I have the perception I have and the opinion I shared. 

And you know nothing about what I eat cause I never shared it other than saying "local." 

Sounds like you're the one with the questionable perception. Funny how that works.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Although I consider a vegetarian diet lacking and I've discussed why, there is zero doubt that most American's health would improve moving to vegetarianism just because it naturally cuts out so much crap. The one request I'd plead with any vegetarian for, is please do not feed your child this lacking diet. Once they are developed that's fine, but before that you are holding back their potential, never to get some aspects back. Notice that all higher intelligence animals are omnivores. This is critical for development.

Regarding slaughterhouses, I think the way we raise, kill & process meat is unethical. CA is the only place trying to do something about it, and they will be widely criticized for the ensuing price increases and lack of pork availability. 

To be clear, animals eat animals, and it's violent. In nature animals attack babies, kill the offspring of females they want to mate with and so on. People try to romanticize nature in many ways which is not only silly, but usually wildly inaccurate. Rest assured that if a cow was a meat eater, it would eat you in a heartbeat if it could with no consideration for 'your feelings'.

That said, as a civilized society I think we can treat animals better before we slaughter them. Not only for common decency, but also for our own health. The stress hormones & poor diets of the animals we eat are not healthy for us. 

Whenever you aren't certain of how far to take something remember one very important rule: everything in moderation. 

Taking anything to the extreme is never the correct (or healthiest in this case) choice.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> The one request I'd plead with any vegetarian for, is please do not feed your child this lacking diet. Once they are developed that's fine, but before that you are holding back their potential, never to get some aspects back. Notice that all higher intelligence animals are omnivores. This is critical for development.





That's misinformation. Studies have shown that a vegan diet can be safe and healthy for all stages of life, including childhood.

These are well researched studies at the pointy end of the hierarchy of scientific evidence pyramid.

As for as intelligent herbivores, elephants? Parrots?


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's super easy to debunk with facts and math. Suffice it to say that most plants grown in the us are used to feed livestock and as far as total animals killed between vegans and meat eaters isn't even close. Also over 100 gallons of water used to produce 1 oz of beef vs about 20 gallons for 1 oz of almonds


You're using vegan propaganda numbers. For example, the water "used" to raise cattle in your data includes water in grass, that grows naturally, and rain that falls on the pastures where cows spend at least 70% of their lives, roaming freely, eating grass that grows there.

And the plants that some cows eat in feed lots are generally industrial waste, like the corn stalks left over from ethanol production, etc. so you can't attribute those plants, or the resources used to grow them to the meat production either....but that won't stop the vegans from trying.

Nice side-step by the way on the question about how ethical vegans rationalize killing millions of "sentient life beings" so they can eat plants.


----------



## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Are you guys mostly diabetic? 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's misinformation. Studies have shown that a vegan diet can be safe and healthy for all stages of life, including childhood.


Wrong. Studies have clearly demonstrated that children raised on vegan diets have stunted growth, and poor brain development, among other things. Some babies even die because thier idiot mothers try to give them vegan baby formula instead of their own breast milk.

And here's an interesting one I learned the other day. 50% of humans can't convert the beta-carotene in plants or plant sourced vitamins into vitamin A. The only other source of vitamin A? Animal products.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Nice side-step by the way on the question about how ethical vegans rationalize killing millions of "sentient life beings" so they can eat plants.


Didn't sidestep at all, I pointed out the fact that you're killing all those sentient beings in the fields plus cattle, pigs, etc. 


lol, "vegan propaganda". Yep, we're trying to take over the world!!

I'm through debating, the information is clearly available and there is consensus. We each make our own choices.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Wrong. Studies have clearly demonstrated that children raised on vegan diets have stunted growth, and poor brain development, among other things. Some babies even die because thier idiot mothers try to give them vegan baby formula instead of their own breast milk.
> 
> And here's an interesting one I learned the other day. 50% of humans can't convert the beta-carotene in plants or plant sourced vitamins into vitamin A. The only other source of vitamin A? Animal products.





That's ridiculous, all of those claims have been soundly refuted, and again refuted using scientific methods at or near the top of the hierarchy pyramid.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Didn't sidestep at all, I pointed out the fact that you're killing all those sentient beings in the fields plus cattle, pigs, etc.
> 
> 
> lol, "vegan propaganda". Yep, we're trying to take over the world!!
> ...


Yup, there is a consensus, meat and animal products are human food, and they're required for a healthy diet.

Vegans trying to take over the world? Believe it. There's a reason Bill Gates is buying up farms and farm land (one of the largest farm owners in the world now), while simultaneously pushing a vegan agenda and a diet of industrially processed chemical slop for the masses, like impossible burgers, etc. If people like him get their way, it'll be illegal to eat meat, or at the least too expensive for most people.

That's the difference between meat eaters and "ethical vegans", for the latter, it's a belief system, and they want to force everyone to do as they say, while the former just want people to have the freedom choose their own diets.

.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's ridiculous, all of those claims have been soundly refuted, and again refuted using scientific methods at or near the top of the hierarchy pyramid.


Tell that to the parents who believed the propaganda, and killed their own children in the process.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

2021Mach6 said:


> When did I say it was fact? I specifically used the words "I think" and "most" because that's obviously an opinion ... I mean, I literally used the "IMO" 🙃 I mean gimme a break. And just cause your family is vegan doesn't mean everyone is or everyone sticks to it. I know A LOT more people that have tried going vegan and quit, then stuck with it for decades. That IS a fact, which is why I have the perception I have and the opinion I shared.
> 
> And you know nothing about what I eat cause I never shared it other than saying "local."
> 
> Sounds like you're the one with the questionable perception. Funny how that works.


Thinking about something and saying it as if it must be true doesn't make it so.

That's kinda why I used a similar example.

Do some real research, there are facts out there if you are okay with them overturning your perceptions.


----------



## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> Thinking about something and saying it as if it must be true doesn't make it so.
> 
> That's kinda why I used a similar example.
> 
> Do some real research, there are facts out there if you are okay with them overturning your perceptions.


We'll have to agree to disagree ... Or not. I honestly have no clue what you're going on about. All I've said is in my circle I've noticed more people quit than go decades. Maybe 98% of vegans stick to it, and the 2% just so happened to be the ones I was exposed to. Hence my perception.

I don't care enough to do any research. I eat healthy and enjoy eating meat. I can careless who is vegan and that doesn't make me ignorant, it simply means I don't care.

Congrats you and your family are vegan. I'll think of you next time I'm eating broccoli. In fact, I'll call it Benjamin!!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

What really makes me wonder is why folks ask so many questions about my diet once they ;learn that I'm a vegatarian.

I know what you're thinking: "it's because you talk about it".

Actually, I don't talk about it at all, after thirty five years it's second nature. 

What usually happens is I'll be out to dinner or eating with friends/family, and they start the conversation.

The part that makes me wonder is why I care not at all about what they eat, but they seem to care an awful lot about what I eat.

Curiosity? Making conversation? 

I mean look at this thread, it wasn't about what we eat, it's about the OP saying he can't go for a ride without eating first... then the next thing you know it's cavemen vs hippies


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Picard said:


> Are you guys mostly diabetic?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


No, why do you ask?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I'm not surprised a lot of Americans fail at being vegetarian/vegans, just look around, the majority of Americans have little self control.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Wow this is some thread. Folks should read up in their nutrition and biology. Because sometimes your intuition doesnt tell you the truth.

Good book: advanced sports nutrition by bernardot. Explains the basics.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chazpat said:


> I'm not surprised a lot of Americans fail at being vegetarian/vegans, just look around, the majority of Americans have little self control.




It doesn't surprise me either. People are creatures of habit and prone to addictions. We all love our comfort food. I think people have a hard time adhering to *any *good diet because of those and other reasons.

For me eliminating animal products from my diet was easy, it reminded me of quitting smoking but without the withdrawals. I just keep feeling better and better.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> It doesn't surprise me either. People are creatures of habit and prone to addictions. We all love our comfort food. I think people have a hard time adhering to *any *good diet because of those and other reasons.
> 
> For me eliminating animal products from my diet was easy, it reminded me of quitting smoking but without the withdrawals. I just keep feeling better and better.


It sounds like it worked for you but I think a lot of people fail because they try to go cold turkey, no pun intended. I had a roommate for a couple of years right after college who was a vegetarian and just got used to eating with him, though I would still eat meat at times. Then I took a job in another city and my folks took me to a steak restaurant before I left and I remember feeling sickish afterwards. Once I got moved, I just decided to give up meat. I didn't find it difficult at all at that point.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> What really makes me wonder is why folks ask so many questions about my diet once they ;learn that I'm a vegatarian.
> 
> I know what you're thinking: "it's because you talk about it".
> 
> ...


I was hoping you took my broccoli named Ben as the white flag it was meant to be!! I'm sure we have a lot more in common than we don't. We wouldn't be here if we didn't. It'd be weird and boring if we agreed on everything 🏳✌


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Bottom line guys, from what I've learned from this thread, DO NOT TRUST ADVICE YOU GET ON INTERNET FORUMS!!* It's also wise not to trust YouTube, nutritionists, or your doctor. 

*unless you need help with dry and itchy skin, hemorrhoids, or jock itch - then see sParty.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Fugg it. I'm going back to booze and ice cream sundaes for my meals.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The title of this thread is actually pretty funny.

Like, whoever thought that they could participate in an endurance sport and not hydrate or eat?!


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

Crankout said:


> Fugg it. I'm going back to booze and ice cream sundaes for my meals.


might as well enjoy the time we have left! 😅


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

2021Mach6 said:


> I was hoping you took my broccoli named Ben as the white flag it was meant to be!! I'm sure we have a lot more in common than we don't. We wouldn't be here if we didn't. It'd be weird and boring if we agreed on everything 🏳✌


I'm sure we do, it just gives me a friggin headache, after all these years I still questions about why I don't eat meat!

Seriously, how often do meat eaters get asked why they eat meat?

I certainly don't bug my friends and family about what they eat ... mostly cuz I could give a shite 

People got some weird hang ups on food.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm sure we do, it just gives me a friggin headache, after all these years I still questions about why I don't eat meat!
> 
> Seriously, how often do meat eaters get asked why they eat meat?
> 
> ...


I didn't ask you one single time about why you don't eat meat. TBH I agree with a ton of stuff you say on here and I've noticed you do the same with me. I didn't judge, I didn't even ask. I simply said "it seems" and went out of my way to say that's from my own personal experience. I didn't even insinuate it was a bad or weird thing. You came at me aggressively, and seems like you been tired of dealing with it and assumed I was in that same camp. I don't think I even shared if I'm a vegan or not cause I don't care to discuss it. I didn't pass judgement, I didn't ask a single thing about who, what, why, when or where.

Dropping it and really not bothered by the conversation or back and forth, it's been civil and I respect that, so that's why I'm taking the time to respond. I think you judged me based off an incorrect assumption though. If I have something to say, I'll say it. I wasn't insinuating or implying anything. There's nothing between the lines, it's all in black and white so take it as you wish.

Ok. I sound like a teenage ex right now! We're good ✌


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Can we get back to OP's question? Why can't it simply be a case of really poor aerobic fitness? This isn't an issue of diet - its an issue with him exercising too hard against his current fitness.

Perhaps start with 90 minute walks drinking when thirsty. Keep your breath easy. Just as easily you can do the same with road cycling. You need to spend time to develop your aerobic system. Its not a matter of carbohydrates its that you need your effort to be low enough that you can operate within your aerobic process which mostly burns fat. If your aerobic system isn't developed you'll need to go very slow and thats ok.

There's a system a lot of ultra-athletes advocate called "Maf Training" where you workout with your heart rate below (180 - age). A lot of people are doing endurance sports while operating way above what their aerobic system can produce, the excess is provided with stored sugars. Once you run out of stored sugar you're bonked.

The maf training is used by runners to train themselves to stay within their aerobic system and also to grow its capacity. Some elite competitive runners have found themselves having to walk to keep their heart rate down far enough, their entire career they've been operating with carbohydrate. Lots of discussion about how frustrating it is at the start. Generally takes at least a few months before aerobic capacity improves enough that they can start hitting their old speeds - sometimes its a year.

Athletes that train with maf might still be carb dependent during races, its not an either or. Aerobic process is the bodies clean burning all day energy but its still healthy to eat.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

eri said:


> Can we get back to OP's question?


Sadly, probably not. 🙃


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

What was the OPs question?

It was more like a failed dieting plan, ie I’m gonna ride without eating and survive on my fat surplus 😆

Has there ever, in history of the world, been a conversation about diet that didn’t elicit differing opinions?

It’s all dumb, fill the time talk, few folks are willing to change their diet because it usually means changes in lifestyle.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Nurse Ben said:


> few folks are willing to change their diet because it usually means changes in lifestyle.


I've known a TON of people who have gone keto/carnivore, had life altering improvements in their physical and mental health, lost weight, gotten off all the meds their doctor had them on, and have sustained it for years without issue.

I think it's really a matter adopting a way of eating that you can live with, for the rest of your life, and too often people try "diets" that make life miserable, and end up going back to their old habits.

.


----------



## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> What was the OPs question?
> 
> It was more like a failed dieting plan, ie I’m gonna ride without eating and survive on my fat surplus 😆
> 
> ...


Sure seems like most people took it as a diet question. I think its just a matter of OP being older and not having good aerobic fitness. Question isn't so much about diet as how to handle having less aerobic fitness and recovery than before. Not sure why he thinks its ok to train without food or water because thats a bunch of stress. Answer is to go slower and train bodies aerobic paths, build up some fitness.

And eat.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm sure we do, it just gives me a friggin headache, after all these years I still questions about why I don't eat meat!
> 
> Seriously, how often do meat eaters get asked why they eat meat?
> 
> ...


It's easy to find out if someone is a vegan or a marine, they'll usually tell you within the first 5 minutes of meeting them


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

nOOky said:


> It's easy to find out if someone is a vegan or a marine *SINGLE SPEEDER*, they'll usually tell you within the first 5 minutes of meeting them


FIFY! 🙃


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## WillDB (Jul 15, 2020)

_CJ said:


> I've known a TON of people who have gone keto/carnivore, had life altering improvements in their physical and mental health, lost weight, gotten off all the meds their doctor had them on, and have sustained it for years without issue.
> 
> I think it's really a matter adopting a way of eating that you can live with, for the rest of your life, and too often people try "diets" that make life miserable, and end up going back to their old habits.
> 
> .


There are countless anecdotes about folks who forego meat and dairy who enjoy the same benefits without the increased risk of coronary artery disease and cancer. Why don't you cite some peer-reviewed literature instead of meaningless anecdotes.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> I've known a TON of people who have gone keto/carnivore...


So about ten 200 pounders?

Most who attempt carnivore diets fail.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> ... Most who attempt carnivore diets fail.


I suspect a carnivore diet would be quite healthy if you hunted down your prey on foot and killed it with your teeth and a rock.

Sitting in McDonald's eating burgers, or a fancy restaurant eating prime steak slathered in sauces, maybe less so.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Velobike said:


> I suspect a carnivore diet would be quite healthy if you hunted down your prey on foot and killed it with your teeth and a rock.
> 
> Sitting in McDonald's eating burgers, or a fancy restaurant eating prime steak slathered in sauces, maybe less so.




Well maybe not



https://www.livescience.com/62689-otzi-iceman-mummy-heart-disease.html


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Well maybe not
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.livescience.com/62689-otzi-iceman-mummy-heart-disease.html


On the other hand how long would have lived otherwise?
_Given that Ötzi wasn't overweight, didn't smoke tobacco, regularly exercised and likely didn't have a high-fat diet (at least by today's standards), it appears that his genes — and not his daily routine — explained his health condition.
"I suspect that lifestyle didn't play a major role in his development of plaque," Dr. Philip Green, an interventional cardiologist at New York-Presbyterian who wasn't involved with the study, told Live Science. Despite the suggestion that Ötzi go vegetarian, Zink sees it another way. "Compared to modern standards, he would not be considered as a risk patient," Zink told Live Science. "So, I think a different diet, such as vegetarian or vegan, wouldn’t have helped Ötzi."_


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> It’s all dumb, fill the time talk, few folks are willing to change their diet because it usually means changes in lifestyle.


Yup!


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Velobike said:


> On the other hand how long would have lived otherwise?
> _Given that Ötzi wasn't overweight, didn't smoke tobacco, regularly exercised and likely didn't have a high-fat diet (at least by today's standards), it appears that his genes — and not his daily routine — explained his health condition.
> "I suspect that lifestyle didn't play a major role in his development of plaque," Dr. Philip Green, an interventional cardiologist at New York-Presbyterian who wasn't involved with the study, told Live Science. Despite the suggestion that Ötzi go vegetarian, Zink sees it another way. "Compared to modern standards, he would not be considered as a risk patient," Zink told Live Science. "So, I think a different diet, such as vegetarian or vegan, wouldn’t have helped Ötzi."_




Well I did say "maybe". Still, there is much credible science that supports my point in that post.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Tuna sandwich on scali bread with some chips. I think someone earlier was asking what I had for lunch today, so there you go.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

atomiccityfun said:


> There are countless anecdotes about folks who forego meat and dairy who enjoy the same benefits without the increased risk of coronary artery disease and cancer. Why don't you cite some peer-reviewed literature instead of meaningless anecdotes.


Here you go. I can post tons of them that back up the lie that carbs are safe:









Fat Cell Metabolic Rate Slowed by High-Carb Diets


Scientists discovered high-carb diets slow the rate of fat tissue metabolism compared to low-carb diets.




highintensityhealth.com


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Brules said:


> Here you go. I can post tons of them that back up the lie that carbs are safe:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, looky, he's selling stuff!


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

y 769638"] I've known a TON of people who have gone keto/carnivore, had life altering improvements in their physical and mental health, lost weight, gotten off all the meds their doctor had them on, and have sustained it for years without issue. I think it's really a matter adopting a way of eating that you can live with, for the rest of your life, and too often people try "diets" that make life miserable, and end up going back to their old habits. . [/QUOTE] I fully get the keto diet. But the Carnivore diet has some holes in it that don't seem to understand how vegetables are good for you. Some vegetables on the surface trigger a negitve state to trigger the body to pruduce antibodies.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Velobike said:


> On the other hand how long would have lived otherwise?
> _Given that Ötzi wasn't overweight, didn't smoke tobacco, regularly exercised and likely didn't have a high-fat diet (at least by today's standards), it appears that his genes — and not his daily routine — explained his health condition.
> "I suspect that lifestyle didn't play a major role in his development of plaque," Dr. Philip Green, an interventional cardiologist at New York-Presbyterian who wasn't involved with the study, told Live Science. Despite the suggestion that Ötzi go vegetarian, Zink sees it another way. "Compared to modern standards, he would not be considered as a risk patient," Zink told Live Science. "So, I think a different diet, such as vegetarian or vegan, wouldn’t have helped Ötzi."_


People love to romanticize 'nature' in many ways. One version is the 'nature gives us all we need...' reasoning.
No it doesn't! Animals in captivity live much longer that animals in nature. Genetics are naturally selected by their propensity to be passed on and the offspring reproducing. That's it. 
Nature doesn't care if you drop dead after reproducing unless it negatively effects your offspring's chance of reproduction.
Nature doesn't care that we fall apart in old age, it's irrelevant for natural selection. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Brules said:


> Here you go. I can post tons of them that back up *the lie that carbs are safe:*


They are safe. Not sure where the controversy lies when it comes to nutrition and biology. Like anything, the right amount is what counts for the most part.


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## WillDB (Jul 15, 2020)

Brules said:


> Here you go. I can post tons of them that back up the lie that carbs are safe:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where in my comment did I say anything about carbs being safe or unsafe?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

atomiccityfun said:


> Where in my comment did I say anything about carbs being safe or unsafe?


Post 143


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## WillDB (Jul 15, 2020)

Crankout said:


> Post 143


You’re mistaken, someone quoted me. I said nothing about carbs.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Leaving Nikolai on the ITI this year I had a peanut-butter and banana sandwich made to-go. That was amazing out on the trail, kind of like soft-serve banana-peanut-butter ice cream. 10/10.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

atomiccityfun said:


> You’re mistaken, someone quoted me. I said nothing about carbs.


Apologies, but I'm confused because I was replying to Steve Brules.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Jayem said:


> Leaving Nikolai on the ITI this year I had a peanut-butter and banana sandwich made to-go. That was amazing out on the trail, kind of like soft-serve banana-peanut-butter ice cream. 10/10.


That is always my go-to trail lunch, except I usually use a tortilla instead of bread (doesn't get as soggy or smashed). I also add honey. Packs the energy, easy to digest, and doesn't make my stomach feel weird once you get going again.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

atomiccityfun said:


> Where in my comment did I say anything about carbs being safe or unsafe?


I think someone else was saying that crabs were unsafe in an earlier post and that created some confusion. While not necessarily harmful, they can itch like hell unless treated with medicated shampoo.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

d365 said:


> That is always my go-to trail lunch, except I usually use a tortilla instead of bread (doesn't get as soggy or smashed). I also add honey. Packs the energy, easy to digest, and doesn't make my stomach feel weird once you get going again.


Coat the bread with a light layer of PB, it keeps jelly or whatever from making the bread soggy.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Jayem said:


> Leaving Nikolai on the ITI this year I had a peanut-butter and banana sandwich made to-go. That was amazing out on the trail, kind of like soft-serve banana-peanut-butter ice cream. 10/10.


Love, love, love! PB and nana sandwich on the trail, so good


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Love, love, love! PB and nana sandwich on the trail, so good


Way too many carbs, or crabs, in that snack...bad for you.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

PB, banana, honey, & bacon. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Crankout said:


> Way too many carbs, or crabs, in that snack...bad for you.


Need carbs here.


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