# Floid Landis (as Armstrong) caught by doping...



## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

It´s just surrealistic than a american riders can win so many tours, no we have a spanish winner again. The frenchies will have to wait. Good luck at baseball, but this is not your sport, sorry...       

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

MaLoL said:


> It´s just surrealistic than a american riders can win so many tours, no we have a spanish winner again. The frenchies will have to wait. Good luck at baseball, but this is not your sport, sorry...
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3


When was Armstrong caught? I guess I missed that one.

There's still the B sample that has to be analyzed.


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

yes, you missed it...


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

who's Floid? ..... Pink Floid?


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## Fort James (Jan 26, 2006)

Please post a link to the Armsrong article or point us in the right direction.

Me thinks you are full of crap though . . . . . . .


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

*....*



MaLoL said:


> It´s just surrealistic than a american riders can win so many tours, no we have a spanish winner again. The frenchies will have to wait. Good luck at baseball, but this is not your sport, sorry...
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3


toooooooooooooolbox


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

I think it's funny how this thread or one similar like it is on evey forum I've read today. At least in Passion and General Discussion it's a bit more fitting, but on the WW board? C'mon, did his doping do something to cut rotaional mass of his wheels or something? Did he dope a few grams off of his deraileur? If you've got something to add, stupid or not, why not just post in one of those threads in a more appropriate forum, or just go ot roadbikereview.com...

BM


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## go-pirates (May 8, 2006)

Armstrong was never caught doping


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*Again you show how STUPID you really are....*

It might be sad on Flyod, but we need to wait for the "B" sample.
Does not look good though.

Amstrong NEVER tested POSTIVE for anything.

Ltet's last year's Vuelta? Roberto Heras (Spaniard) gets busted for doping?
Spanish riders kicked off phonak (Santiago Perez) for doping? Oscar Sevilla thrown out for doping!

Vuelta dis-invites Comunidad Valenciana (spanish team)

Spain is the haven for dopers!


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Also if an American does not give SPAIN a gift of 28min(?) oscar does not sniff the podium!

So back to Bull Fighting and Running with bulls (God, I want to try that!!)for you guys I guess!


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

As information comes out it is being revealed that Floyd apparently didn't have HIGH amounts of Testosterone in his urine, just out of proprotion ratios. From ESPN:

Cycling analyst John Eustice thinks Floyd Landis' testosterone test could be a false positive. Landis' testosterone levels were low; just the ratio was off. Landis' cortisone shots or beer drinking could affect that, Eustice said on The Dan Patrick Show. 

Living in the age of instant information is interesting to say the least. Folks everywhere are being quoted talking about this and they certainly do not have all the information.
(Perhaps Eustice as well....) All I know is that I only know what is being leaked out through the media and then wildly and often ignorantly speculated upon in this forum.

In the ESPN News video also on that page, Eustice points out that every rider that has contested an accusation of testosterone doping has been exonerated...
And as some former cyclists have pointed out; it makes no sense to use testosterone when there are so many more undetectable "products" that can be used....


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*Please......*


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)




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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*Testosterone...*



DIRT BOY said:


> And as some former cyclists have pointed out; it makes no sense to use testosterone when there are so many more undetectable "products" that can be used....


sorry Gio - i just saw the news on swiss television:

Testosterone is known to help regeneration of muscles. small amounts are sufficient to have really big effect in short time and if taken care can't be found the next evening. there was a scientist of the swiss dope-lab explaining what testosterone can do. it's not to enhance his power but it could have helped him big time to regain strenght faster. he obviously had a VERY BAD day before just to shine on the next day...strange, really strange. on the other hand it would be real stupid to use it knowing that you get tested the next day. that's like going at 200 miles through a radar and hoping nothing would happen

so this might also allow speculation for other people trying to do harm to Landis.

anyway - fact is testosterone would have had a positive effect in this case.


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## KMan (Dec 30, 2003)

*slow day at work today?*



Time will tell - I'll hold my thoughts until I read facts and not before.

KMan


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Work? yah right....

Yep, time will tell...


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## Didier Carpentier (Jan 13, 2004)

*don't they all take something these pro cyclists?*

have you read "LA confidential" or other books on the matter?
to my opinion, it is like the tabocco company boss saying with all the confidence in the world that tabacco isn't additive...
is it 99% of the pro using dope or the other way around????
can someone may believe that Amstrong didn't use anything to win 7 tours...
look at the other recent tour winners (Pantani, Ulrich...). for some reason, lance had a talent to get away with it, like a special protection plan or so.
sometimes suspicions are better than proof.
tallk with retired pros, they'll tell you all about the doping culture.
read the numberous books on the subjet.
but simply, ride 130 miles flat out, climb 15.000 feet positive denivellation, sprint, fall, time trail.... for 3 weeks and drink plain water, than win the f*kin' thing... you are SUPERMAN.
you are a MALOLO...


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

Oh no, not the one who had to copy Dirt Boy's website's name again....


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

MaLoL said:


> It´s just surrealistic than a american riders can win so many tours, no we have a spanish winner again. The frenchies will have to wait. Good luck at baseball, but this is not your sport, sorry...
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3


Yup, you've just tested positive for being a dope.

:lol:


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

I was never surprised by Landis' resurrection after that bad day. It was not a bad "legs" day, just nutricianal. He lost 10min up the last hill, unwillingly *saving *a lot of muscle fatigue. It hurt, but he was really doing a relaxed recovering ride, setting himself up for a better next day. Unwillingly.

I'd be interested to know what would happen to us mortal's testosterone levels having just accomplished one of the greatest sporting performances in any sport, ever. Does it not at all respond to mental input? After such a ride, do you expect to deliver a "standard" sample? Does one do it without especially good form of the day?

I'd like to see test. tests done on a racing driver once after a lost race, and once after championship securing voctory. Will they be the same?

If they (the French) can't find anything on Lance with hundreds of samples to fiddle with, there's nothing there. Hey, the guy was a pro World Champion the year that Jan Ullrich won the Amateurs, why be surprised if later in his carreer he degrades all other cyclists to Amateurs?


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

Cloxxki said:


> I'd be interested to know what would happen to us mortal's testosterone levels having just accomplished one of the greatest sporting performances in any sport, ever. Does it not at all respond to mental input? After such a ride, do you expect to deliver a "standard" sample? Does one do it without especially good form of the day?


They're saying his testosterone level was extremely low, that is strange. The epitestosterone level does not rise in unison with test. when you take in test. from the outside. Usually if you're doping with testosterone, the levels will be very high compared with epitest. So his epitestosterone levels must be super extremely loooooow.  We haven't heard the last of this one.


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

For me all the high level riders are doped.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> As information comes out it is being revealed that Floyd apparently didn't have HIGH amounts of Testosterone in his urine, just out of proprotion ratios. From ESPN:
> Cycling analyst John Eustice thinks Floyd Landis' testosterone test could be a false positive. Landis' testosterone levels were low; just the ratio was off. Landis' cortisone shots *or beer drinking could affect that*, Eustice said on The Dan Patrick Show.
> 
> Beer drinking?...Hmmm?? Works for me.:thumbsup:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*Let's fist wait for the "B" sample....*

then remember NO cyclist has ever been found guilty for testosterone doping. Hundreds of cases have eben dismissed after endrocin tests.

I just fine it hard to believe with the whole Operation Puerto, once rider, any rider whoud take a chance for one stage knowing if you win you will be tested.

If he IS gulity, it's not a black eye for American riders, it's another BLACK eye for the TDF and cycling as a sport that we all love.....

Now if Spain whould adpot doping laws like everyone else, this help help in trying to clean the sport up. BUT there will ALWAYS be cheaters!!! :madman:


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## drDave (Jul 28, 2006)

*Adding Some Rational Thoughts to an Irrational Discussion*

Taxes, root canals, wet socks in cold weather and Ted Kennedy. These are some of the things I truly despite. I am getting ready to add ESPN to the mix.

This is an out of control news media (which if you have ever see the news or read books such as "Bias," know this is rather redundant). When Floyd won, they mentioned his victory for about 25 seconds, twice. When he tested positive, it is an hourly story complete with family interviews and an expose.

If that does not raise an eyebrow or two, add this to the mix. A cycling analysis went into some detail regarding the case. ESPN reported "doping" and "high levels of testosterone" in big, bold letters AT THE EXACT MOMENT the analysis was clearly stating "It is not high levels of testosterone; rather an elevated testosterone/epitestosterone ratio."

They completed the "expose" by going into detail about how this drags American cycling and the TDF down etc.

At what point do people start taking a stance against such irresponsible reporting? What needs to happen in order for accountability and accuracy to be the norm?

This is not the first time BY ANY MEANS that ESPN has done a "guilty until proven innocent and they will never be proven innocent because it is not a great story" story. They have become as slanted, biased and twisted as CNN. It is an outright disgrace.

ESPN a sports news outlet? No. They are the National Inquirer of Sports - teen age girls who love to gossip but forgot the impact their words have on others.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

From that pic he could use a few shots of Testosterone!


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## KMan (Dec 30, 2003)

*Now THAT'S Funny!!*

Like George running around "I was in the pool, I was in the POOL!

KMan



DIRT BOY said:


> From that pic he could use a few shots of Testosterone!


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## prolevel (Jun 16, 2006)

*Doping*

The biggest dope scandel ever will come out of Spain, and we thought they all were just great climbers. Hummmmm!


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

You mean like Iban Mayo? That guy is stealiing a pay check! Iban couldn't climb the Key Biscayne Bridge here in Miami or Mt. Trashmore in Broward County and ofcourse nothing in the TDF......

Every year this is is supposedly a TDF challanger and the last few he just quits!

And yes, The BIGGEST doping scandal ever will be from SPAIN that will dwarf the Festina Affair!

BUT its sad for ALL of Cycling and it's something NO cyclist want s too see....


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

KMan said:


> Like George running around "I was in the pool, I was in the POOL!
> 
> KMan


LMFAO!


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## prolevel (Jun 16, 2006)

*Climbing in Florida*

Dirt Boy

Peopole are surpreised when you tell them there is some fair climbing in florida, try Clearmount, Sugar Loaf Mt. not the TDF for sure but good stuff for Florida

Pro Level


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

KMan said:


> Like George running around "I was in the pool, I was in the POOL!
> 
> KMan


LMAO!!!!!!

:lol: :rockon: :yesnod:


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> From that pic he could use a few shots of Testosterone!


At the very least!!


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## Futurepath (Dec 30, 2004)

*Here's another article with a doctor's explanation...*

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/28/landis.lkl/index.html

Landis: Tour win due to 'heart,' not drugs
Tour de France winner defends himself against doping allegation.

Tour de France champion Floyd Landis said Friday that his victory in the world's most-famous bike race last week had nothing to do with cheating.

It was "heart and determination and 15 years of hard work" that paid off, Landis told CNN's "Larry King Live" in an interview Friday from Madrid, Spain.

The 30-year-old American tested positive for the male sex hormone testosterone -- a possible sign of the use of steroids -- after an astounding comeback to win stage 17 in the French Alps, just a day after a disastrous showing that all but knocked him out of contention. (Watch Landis tell King why this wasn't really a positive test result -- 3:52)

"I'd love to continue in this sport. It's been my passion and my dream, and it's a beautiful sport," Landis said. "I would love to keep racing, and I'm going to do my best to defend my dignity and my innocence."

Landis reiterated to King a claim he made at a news conference earlier in the day: He has never taken performance-enhancing drugs and he has no idea why the test indicated his testosterone levels were abnormal.

"This is not a doping case, but a natural occurrence," the 30-year-old American cyclist told reporters at the news conference. "I declare convincingly and categorically that my winning the Tour de France has been exclusively due to many years of training and my complete devotion to cycling."

After the 17th stage, Landis gave a urine sample that showed the ratio of testosterone to another hormone, epitestosterone, in his system was abnormally high. Specific results haven't been released, but the World Anti-Doping Agency categorizes a ratio of 4-to-1 or higher as an adverse result.

A high ratio can indicate that a competitor is using anabolic steroids, according to the anti-doping agency. But the ratio can naturally vary among people, and Landis said his normal levels have never been recorded.

"It's not a positive test in the same criteria of finding something" introduced from outside the body, Landis said. "What this test shows is an abnormal ratio of two naturally occurring substances."

Landis conceded that the storybook nature of his win has increased suspicion. Competing with an injured hip and thyroid condition, Landis had a disastrous ride the day before he made up 8 minutes on the leader and put himself in position to win.

Despite the circumstances, there is nothing suspicious about the victory, Landis said.

"It was my dream. And when you get to that point when you're inspired, and you're somewhere you've always dreamt of being and nothing else matters, you can push yourself to limits you couldn't push yourself to before," he said.

Landis was tested eight other times during the race -- six times before the abnormal test result and twice afterward -- and he has not been told that any of those tests had unusual outcomes, he said.

Regardless, Landis' physician, Dr. Brent Kay, said that testosterone would have done nothing to help Landis win the race.

"Testosterone is a body-building steroid that that builds mass over long-term use of weeks, months or even years," Kay said. "It's crazy to think that a Tour de France professional cyclist would be using testosterone, particularly in the middle of a race. It's a joke."

Also, the abnormal ratio could mean a low epitestosterone level rather than a high testosterone level, Kay said.

Landis had been taking two medications during the race -- injections of cortisone to deal with a chronic hip injury and a thyroid hormone used to treat a condition known as Hashimoto's disease, with which he was diagnosed two years ago.

Kay said it appears unlikely that either medication could have caused the result.

Landis had a waiver to take cortisone; the thyroid medication did not require a waiver because it is not considered a performance-enhancing substance.

Landis said he will request that a second sample, taken at the same time as the one with abnormal levels, be tested. If the results are confirmed, he could be stripped of his Tour de France victory and face disciplinary action from the sport's governing body, the International Cycling Union.

In the meantime, his cycling team, Phonak, has pulled Landis from the racing circuit and announced that he will be dismissed from the team if the second test confirms the results of the first.

SCREW THE FRENCH Everyone wants to come down on Floyd. I for one believe his innocence regardless of the results. The French as well as others tried and tried to crucify Lance and American cyclists in general.

In this article a good point is made. Floyds other tests did not show elevated levels of testosterone. STage 17 shows slightly elevated levels. As the doctor points out, a shot of steroids isn't going to boost your performance in one instance or stage. Steroids have to be used over a long period as the person has to workout to build muscle thus taking advantage of the steroid. If all other stages showed no elevation, how is one shot of steroids going to help a racer for one stage. Steroids don't work that way. Do the research.

I don't believe Landis cheated. There is no possible way testosterone with that low of a ratio 4:1 is going to make Floyd perform as well as he did. Unless I'm lacking, it's just common sense.


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## Didier Carpentier (Jan 13, 2004)

Futurepath said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/28/landis.lkl/index.html
> 
> SCREW THE FRENCH Everyone wants to come down on Floyd. I for one believe his innocence regardless of the results. The French as well as others tried and tried to crucify Lance and American cyclists in general.
> 
> ...


amigo,
we live in Europe and people generaly speaking regards performance and personnality much, but really much more than where the guy come from.
we love, just like you, guys like Vinokourov while most don't really know prescisely where he is from. I think most people like Landis, and even more because of his weakiness during the tour and the fact that he came back really strong when he won the stage with a 5:45 on second. Lance wasn't liked by most over here since he was recognize as a great champion but poor human being (cold, arrogant, etc...).
What is simply decieving for the mass is to face the fact that probably all pro cyclist use doping, the general feeling on that matter in the news over here, in Switzerland is sadness. But really, Lance, Hinault, Hamilton, Hincapie, Fignon.... who really care?!
they are all on the same boat, they just have to do it and not get caught.
their time is short to make glory and dollars, the pressure from team, media is very high on them....
How could it be different in the Pro level.....
It got nothin to do with yankie or euro's here, just the remaining naivety of some people that keep believing the impossible....
Yes human being is fondamentaly cheater by nature, just like you and I.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Futurepath said:


> In this article a good point is made. Floyds other tests did not show elevated levels of testosterone. STage 17 shows slightly elevated levels. As the doctor points out, a shot of steroids isn't going to boost your performance in one instance or stage. Steroids have to be used over a long period as the person has to workout to build muscle thus taking advantage of the steroid. If all other stages showed no elevation, how is one shot of steroids going to help a racer for one stage. Steroids don't work that way. Do the research.
> 
> I don't believe Landis cheated. There is no possible way testosterone with that low of a ratio 4:1 is going to make Floyd perform as well as he did. Unless I'm lacking, it's just common sense.


as i pointed out already above:

doping experts say that testosterone helps speed up recovery. sometimes just attaching a plaster with testosterone to your test!cle is enough for significant help. but you can also use tablets or other forms. experts say this would have made absolutely sense in this case since he had to recover big time from the day before. it's just that he has taken too much! usually small amounts fade away within the next day and can't be measured. so testosterone isn't to make you faster but to speed up recovery.

i'll let the judges speak but it's pretty strange what happened.

and NO - this has absolutely nothing to do with americans or french or whatever nation. this is about a clean sport without cheating. Ullrich and Basso and all the others get treated the same way. it's sad and cyclers seem to be in the spotlight. where's all the other athletes that were on that spanish list? from what i remember they found about 200 names in that list from all different sports. athletics etc. where's all the other guys? you just hear from the cyclists. there was a huge scandal a couple of years ago in italian soccer...you don't hear anything about that anymore as well.


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

I think he had the least amount of recovering to do from the day before. Yes, he rode 10min longer over the last hill than the others, but at a casual pace. It hurt for him, due to dehydration. Look how much he drank the next day, it was not going to happen to him a second time.
If you've been riding for some time, everyone's come across a true hunger bonk. I for one do not feel extra tired the day after one, if I have been allowed near some full plates of fries and meat, at least. No veggies after I've bonked please, need real food.
I had a few races where I got too cold to perform. Heartrate stayed low as with bonking, and afterwards I was not really tired. The ride itself took forever and felt like hell. I ate the finish banner though.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

After the Operation Puerto fiasco, why would ANY rider, espcially a tour favortire take a chance and dope for 1 stage to get to get time back?

I just can't see Floyd or any TOP 10 rider taking a chance like this, after the whole Spanish bust. 
Look doping seems to be part of the sport and might always will, but this race to take a chance on one satge, knowing if you WIN you will be tested!

That's what gets me thinking it's a mistake. Again stranger things have happened and these guys are desperate at times.

But if he was only going to dope for one stage, why win and risk being caught?

i don't know. I hope he is not for all of cycling. Let's also rember, the test for tesosterone is flawed and cannot be proven if it's his naturally or synthetic. They SHOULD use a test that can tell you. If it's nautral, then he is clean. Synthetic, then he is doping and should as ANY rider face a lifetime ban!

The test they use ONLY, ONLT shows if your levels are out of wack and that it.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

*Ignorant question....*

So, if testosterone levels were tested earlier (eight times in the tour?) and were found to be within normal limits why the rise on the last day of the stage? It's my understanding that these levels stay quite stable and fluctuate very little. Unless??


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

Axis II said:


> So, if testosterone levels were tested earlier (eight times in the tour?) and were found to be within normal limits why the rise on the last day of the stage? It's my understanding that these levels stay quite stable and fluctuate very little. Unless??


What evidence is there that his testosterone levels rose? All that I've heard so far is that they were slightly below normal, through John Eustice of ESPN. Maybe if the anti-doping agency would actually present their findings since they've already run Floyd through the mud, we would all know whether or not his testosterone was abnormally high or not. From what I've heard, the only thing unusual was that his epitestosterone levels were low. I believe that there are probably many possible reasons his E levels would be low, and it's pretty amateurish to just assume it's a result of doping.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Fat Elvis said:


> What evidence is there that his testosterone levels rose? All that I've heard so far is that they were slightly below normal, through John Eustice of ESPN. Maybe if the anti-doping agency would actually present their findings since they've already run Floyd through the mud, we would all know whether or not his testosterone was abnormally high or not. From what I've heard, the only thing unusual was that his epitestosterone levels were low. I believe that there are probably many possible reasons his E levels would be low, and it's pretty amateurish to just assume it's a result of doping.


c'mon guy - those guys doing the tests aren't kids. these are scientists and specialized in testing. they know exactly what's normal and what's not. as Axis II said above, Floyds levels were ok in all other tests but not at this day. strange, really strange. now Floyd tries to get a spanish (!) doctors certificate saying his levels are abnormal which would be the reason for this....no more questions on my side!! if his levels are abnormal then why didn't he have such a certificate before? they get tested throughout the year, not just during the TdF. other riders have certificates as well but they have them BEFORE and not after beeing tested. strange, really strange.

and no one is running him through the mud other than those cheap, crap newspapers. you know that kind of press who is just about cheap info in big and bold letters...regular newspapers and also television tells the story how it is and so far he hasn't been proved guilty. BUT it's hard to believe he drank pure water the night before.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Strange as it all may be, even an athelete deserves to be treated as being innocent until proven guilty. Nothing should have been leaked to the press until Landis' second sample gave the same results and/or Landis stripped of his title. If this turns out to be a wild -goose chase somebody ought to lose his f*ckng job.

The whole matter leaves me quite irritated: not the fact that yet another cyclist has been caught (which remains to be seen IMHO!), but the fact that the cycling press, yes the cycling community as a whole is circling around like a bunch of vultures. Like the starter of this thread. In 150 years ago we would have already burnt Landis at the stake......

@Scapin: I can understand such an attitude after so many dissapointments over the years, but really: there's a simple explanation for why the pros so, so much faster than us mere mortals: they're pros. They've been training and winning since they were (young) children. Their diet, lifestyle, body, yes even mindset have been shaped over 15-20 years to do only one thing: ride bikes. For those of us on the forum who race, we know what a busy season is like (outside of the full time job & quality time needed with the family). Now imagine training 3-4 times more, and that only during the off-season.

See what I'm getting at?


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

Pro's like to ride so much, and want to win so bad, that they do everything to not have to get a real job and be able to ride all day, every day. I can't be bothered to ride by myself even on decent trails, but these folks need to be restricted by trainers to not over-train.


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

nino said:


> c'mon guy - those guys doing the tests aren't kids. these are scientists and specialized in testing. they know exactly what's normal and what's not. as Axis II said above, Floyds levels were ok in all other tests but not at this day. strange, really strange.


I'm not a kid either; I have a phd in chemistry. I know medeival logic when I see it. These scientists observe a single datapoint that is consistent with testosterone doping, and PRESTO! Floyd's a doper. Well, what else is it consistent with? It's also consistent with consuming ethanol. The authors of this article made an interesting statement in their paper on the effects of alcohol on T/E ratios in athletes:

"In one of our doping-control activities, urine samples were frequently obtained from a Swedish athlete at irregular time intervals. An increased ratio between testosterone and
epitestesterone in urine was observed occasionally, and all these increases were found to have been preceded by intake of ethanol. This motivated us to study whether ethanol
consumption can affect this ratio."

What more do you need to know to realize that measuring the T/E ratio is not an absolute indicator that an athlete has doped? Clearly, the ratio can be affected by something as mundane as alcohol consumption. What else can affect it? Who knows. I'm sure that the clowns at WADA don't know. They just seem to want the easy answer. Unfortunately, it's not all black and white. They're telling us that they're protecting the sport of bicycling against doping. Well, they aren't doing a very good job if their test methods are flawed (the epo test is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, btw), and if as a result they are suspending riders who have never doped. All they're doing is adding to the problem.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*you're the man they need...*



Fat Elvis said:


> I'm not a kid either; I have a phd in chemistry. I know medeival logic when I see it. These scientists observe a single datapoint that is consistent with testosterone doping, and PRESTO! Floyd's a doper. Well, what else is it consistent with? It's also consistent with consuming ethanol. The authors of this article made an interesting statement in their paper on the effects of alcohol on T/E ratios in athletes:
> 
> "In one of our doping-control activities, urine samples were frequently obtained from a Swedish athlete at irregular time intervals. An increased ratio between testosterone and
> epitestesterone in urine was observed occasionally, and all these increases were found to have been preceded by intake of ethanol. This motivated us to study whether ethanol
> ...


you must be right - those guys don't know a sh!t about doping. all the other tests and all other athletes didn't have any irregularities yet you come out and know better? you're the man


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

I agree that it's stupid to come forward with a name before settling it all, B-sample, defence by the athlete, literature study, etc. 
The UCI (I know, not WADA) is all about taking the usual, and putting it in the law. Like MTB's which used to all have 26" wheels, they made that the law. Road bikes had narrow tires, so they made that the law. Many roadies like to sit waaaay back with their seat, so....

If would have been interesting to note whether a high epitest./test. ratio is even helping to win races. If it is, why isn't everyone taking pre-ride beers?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*having a beer with sprinter Justin Gatlin??*



Cloxxki said:


> I agree that it's stupid to come forward with a name before settling it all, B-sample, defence by the athlete, literature study, etc.
> The UCI (I know, not WADA) is all about taking the usual, and putting it in the law. Like MTB's which used to all have 26" wheels, they made that the law. Road bikes had narrow tires, so they made that the law. Many roadies like to sit waaaay back with their seat, so....
> 
> If would have been interesting to note whether a high epitest./test. ratio is even helping to win races. If it is, why isn't everyone taking pre-ride beers?


maybe Floyd and 100m Sprint world record holder Justin Gattlin drank a beer together? both tested positive with testosterone.....or maybe it's just the Buds Light that has this special effect


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## Trevor! (Dec 23, 2003)

KMan said:


> Time will tell - I'll hold my thoughts until I read facts and not before.
> 
> KMan


I couldn't agree more.

I haven't really commented on any of the forums I frequent about floyd because the facts are so minimal at the moment that I see no point.

I am actually not a Floyd fan (as a cyclist) but I respect him like any other person to know he ought to be given a chance and let all the information flow before we pass judgment.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

nino said:


> you must be right - those guys don't know a sh!t about doping. all the other tests and all other athletes didn't have any irregularities yet you come out and know better? you're the man


As a matter of fact, they do not know **** about doping. A lot of criterias used are later proven to be pulled out of their collective asses.

This is a business - not science.

Also - why do you keep mising the point that an abnormal ratio is not equivalent to a "high testosterone"? There is two way to get an elevated ratio - add one, or subtract other.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

The reality of it is that testing for banned substance use is nowhere near as foolproof or conclusive as WADA, the IOC or UCI would like the world to think. This has been shown time and time again by people falsely accused, banned, and later having their bans withdrawn.

On the other hand there's probably boatloads of dopers, considering enough atheletes get caught and simply confess. This highlights the existence of more flaws in the system: how were these guys able to get away with it for so long in the first place?

To me it appears there is no conclusive evidence Floyd Landis illegally boosted his testosterone levels, and no evidence has been presented as such either. If or when Landis is formally banned by the UCI, only then can we as the public make any judgements about his alleged doping, as the UCI won't ban him on the basis of one single result.

Until then screaming "Floid Landis caught by doping (as Armstrong)" is indeed just pulling stuff out of your @ss.


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

nino said:


> maybe Floyd and 100m Sprint world record holder Justin Gattlin drank a beer together? both tested positive with testosterone.....or maybe it's just the Buds Light that has this special effect


It's normal to get drunk after a crisis for dehydration and before a climbing stage... :madman:


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

eric said:


> @Scapin: I can understand such an attitude after so many dissapointments over the years


Exactly. I'm unbelieving.


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

nino said:


> maybe Floyd and 100m Sprint world record holder Justin Gattlin drank a beer together? both tested positive with testosterone.....or maybe it's just the Buds Light that has this special effect


supposedly it was amstel light


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

Cloxxki said:


> If they (the French) can't find anything on Lance with hundreds of samples to fiddle with, there's nothing there.


Actually, they did.
It was tested positive from EPO on a 99 sample, with a 2004 technique. The problem is that there was not another sample left to make a second test.
Common Armstrong was a friend of Dr Ferrari, notorious for his drugs.

I'm French, and this has no impact on my beliefs about pro sport, because of the nationality of the pro : All pro-athletes DO use doping. Common, open your eyes !

It is especially clear in road cyclism, where bad fitness can't be made up by technique. There was an article by a doctor at cyclingnews just before the start of the tour, that explained everything. In cycling they use:
1- testosterone patch on the crotch at night
2- growth hormone
These 2 are for the muscles. Low quantity everyday so that it looks normal
3- EPO, to get just under the UCI limit
This increase oxygene use capacity
4-auto-transfusion (effect for 3 weeks, done just before the start of a big tour)

Doping is especially clear on the track to. I'm sure that the famous French soccer player Zidane use auto-transfusion too.

There use to be some doping in MTB too. When the euro (french inculded) started to kick american ass because they had the "road culture" = use doping. Now that money has left MTB, i think most of the guys are clean.
Put money back in MTB, and doping will rise again.


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

20.100 FR said:


> Actually, they did.
> It was tested positive from EPO on a 99 sample, with a 2004 technique. The problem is that there was not another sample left to make a second test.
> .


Baloney. The problem was that they were using a test method that had never been qualified. Check out the EPO test method on WADA's site. Does it say anywhere that it's ok to let the urine sample sit around for 5 years? Don't think so. I believe they say that you need to start working on it within hours of collection, in large part because EPO is not particularly stable and it quickly degrades. The results from the tests on Armstrong's sample were complete bunk. Oh, and the fact that a French tabloid was paying for the tests doesn't exactly make them any more believable, at least not to me.


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

That '99 sample in 2005 would probably show "positive" on a pregnancy test too. While we all know Lance was already sterile in '99


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

Fat Elvis said:


> Oh, and the fact that a French tabloid was paying for the tests doesn't exactly make them any more believable, at least not to me.


This is not true.
The test was made public by "l'equipe", French most famous sport journal, and pretty serious.
This is the journal that created the tour de France, and still get a lot from it.
Nothing in common with some (english) tabloid


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

bhsavery said:


> supposedly it was amstel light


An Amstel Light with a shot of Testosterone maybe?:skep: Hmmm????


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

Axe said:


> Also - why do you keep mising the point that an abnormal ratio is not equivalent to a "high testosterone"? There is two way to get an elevated ratio - add one, or subtract other.


Or just use some stuff that can hide other doping substances, only slightly modifying testosterone ratios.

Floyd doctor can not be trusted as is statment is false. Testosterone is usefull even during the tour to protect muscle mass.

All this pro are doped. That's it. And it will never change as long as there is a lot of money involved.

They should put the medical names on the jerseys as sponsorts, so that we really now wich product is better !


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*Fro you that think the french are out to get the americans...*

at the expense of thier greatest sporting event you are NUTS! You don't realize the money and pride the TDF brings to France and the exposure it brings to the country. I have never had a desire to visit France due the how I heard americans are treated there. After having my wife and others visit there many time and have explained WHY some, some americans are not liked I can see why  .

The more I watch the TDF the more I want to spend tme in Paris and Provance!(?) 
Having the Champ DQ fro drugs would hurt there race big time and it's not good long-term for the TDF or cycling.

I bet 90% of you who hate "the French" have never met one. Look I am sure there are mnay Frech people that I woulod not like and that includes MANY AMERICANs, Spainards, Germans, Italians, Arabs, etc! If you are a a-hole, you are a a-hole no matter WHAT your nationality or race! 

Now if Floyd is found guilty afetr all this and truly cannot defend these allegations, then I will right him off and any other scumbag that cheats!

but at the same time like 20.100 FR says, we might as well right off 75-80% of athletes in all sports as drug use is there.

Maybe Zidane had a test shot/patch before his match with italy and that aggression caused him to head-butt an Italian player and probaly cost France big time in the WC :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:!!!!!


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

*Synthetic Testosterone Found?*

I dunno, it aint looking good for Floyd. You decide:

Tests performed on Floyd Landis's initial urine sample showed that some of the testosterone in Landis's body came from an external source and was not naturally produced by his own system, according to a person at the International Cycling Union with knowledge of the results.
That finding contradicts what Landis has claimed in his defense since the disclosure last week that he tested positive for an elevated ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone after his decisive performance in Stage 17 of the Tour de France. Landis won that stage in the Alps and improbably climbed to third place over all after he had struggled and plunged to 11th place the day before. He went on to claim the Tour title.

During a news conference in Madrid on Friday, Landis said: "We will explain to the world why this is not a doping case, but a natural occurrence." He explained that the testosterone levels throughout his career were "natural and produced by my own organism."

But the French national antidoping laboratory in Châtenay-Malabry performed a carbon isotope ratio test on the first of Landis's two urine samples provided after Stage 17 of the Tour de France, said the person, who works in the cycling union's antidoping department. That test was done after Landis's ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was found to be more than twice the allowed under World Anti-Doping Agency rules, the person said. The rules limit the ratio to four to one. The normal range is between one to one and two to one.
Landis's personal doctor, Dr. Brent Kay, of Temecula, Calif., said the initial result was a false positive. He did, however, acknowledge that the test found a ratio of 11 to 1 in Landis's system. He and Landis are seeking an explanation for that high level.

"I've seen body builders with numbers 100 to 1," Kay said. "Although Floyd's was elevated, it's not off the chart or anything."

The carbon isotope test examines the testosterone and determines if it is natural or synthetic. The test found that Landis had synthetic testosterone in his body, the person said.

Landis, who is in New York after canceling or postponing several talk show appearances, could not be reached for comment this evening.

The urine sample Landis provided after Stage 17 was divided into an A and a B sample. Landis received the test results of the A sample last Wednesday, and he had five business days to request an analysis of the B sample. Confirmation of the A sample result is needed for any doping violation to occur. If the B sample comes up negative, the case is dropped.
Michael Henson, who is Landis's spokesman, said Landis had sent a signed request today around 12:30 p.m. Eastern Time - about 6:30 p.m. Paris time - to the French lab to seek the analysis of his B sample.

Jose Maria Buxeda, one of Landis's two Spanish lawyers, told The Associated Press that he had also sent a fax to the cycling union this afternoon to request that the B sample analysis go forward.

But Pat McQuaid, the president of the cycling union, said this evening that the organization had never received that request. He said the cycling union had contacted the French lab at 5 p.m. Paris time and that Landis's request had not yet been received.

McQuaid said the cycling union then asked the lab to analyze Landis's B sample, which he said was allowed under the organization's rules, so the test could be concluded before the lab closed for a two-week vacation this Friday. If the tests cannot be finished before then, the results may not come until late August or early September, he said.

"It's a two-and-a-half-day job and it's imperative that the B test be done this week for the credibility of our sport, but also for the public interest," McQuaid said. "This needs to be put to rest because there is too much innuendo, too much talk, too much damage being done to our sport. We have to get this process done quickly, so we can move on."

The lab agreed to conduct the tests from Thursday through Saturday, McQuaid said. That means that Landis's fate might be known by the weekend.
If the carbon isotope test again comes back positive, however, Landis will face a two-year suspension from the sport. He also will be stripped of his Tour de France title.

Dr. Gary I. Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a professor at New York University School of Medicine, said Landis would have several options if his B sample shows the presence of exogenous testosterone.

"The rules say that it is a violation, but if you can show that the athlete had no fault or no significant fault, there could be a mitigation of the sanction," he said. "No matter how it got there, the athlete has to show how it got into his or her body. It could have been sabotage or contaminated dietary supplements, or something else, but they have to prove how the testosterone got there."


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

yes, that does not look good. problems is and yes you have to take this in accont, HOW did it get in there. Did Flyod know about it? Someone at Phonak or a bad Doctor? The lab?

Funny, but I thought they did not use this test.

If Landis is lying, he is a scum bag! But I tell you, the chance of a conspicary is hard to believe.


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## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

Axis II said:


> I dunno, it aint looking good for Floyd. You decide:


Yeah, I agree, it doesn't look good. I've got no problem with the isotope analysis. This paper explains the procedure pretty well. It's a lot more rigorous than the T/E test, which is on par with a lie-detector test. (I'm really glad that I'm not the wank that has to run the urine through a reverse-phase column, and then acetylate it in pyridine; sounds like hell). I wish they'd just put out a report, though, so that we can at least see some of the data. Everything that we read is a bit fishy; they use equivocations like "this proves that some of the testosterone found is exogenous." Well how freaking much, and what's the level of certainty? I'm not going to believe it until it's more than just a leak to the press, but I have a bad feeling now.


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> at the expense of thier greatest sporting event you are NUTS! You don't realize the money and pride the TDF brings to France and the exposure it brings to the country. I have never had a desire to visit France due the how I heard americans are treated there. After having my wife and others visit there many time and have explained WHY some, some americans are not liked I can see why  .
> 
> The more I watch the TDF the more I want to spend tme in Paris and Provance!(?)
> Having the Champ DQ fro drugs would hurt there race big time and it's not good long-term for the TDF or cycling.
> ...


Well put out DirtBoy.
I'm French, and i know the US pretty well. I worked there for 4 months. This helped me overcome the ideas i had before on the americans. Like everywhere around the world, there is some very nice people and some stupid dumbass !
I do not feel close to certain stupid French, and have some american friends. Values and behavior count much more to me than the place were i was born. I choosed my friends, not the place i was born.

This said i'm pretty sure Zidane, like the others used doping products.
Your theory on testosterone causing his agressive behavior is very rational !
Testosterone cause to loose hair. Same for epo. And Zidane is bald.....

Back to cycling,
Do you guys really think that Armstrong was able to win clean ahead of Ulrich and Basso who used doping ? Come on ! All pro riders use doping, this is a fact ! You have to ackwnoledge it. 
Armstrong was under drugs, just like the others. This does not remove the fact that he was such an incredible talented rider, as well as a very cold and distant human behing (1st reason why he is so unloved by us French. Greg Lemon, who beat Laurent Fignon but is a nice human being, is liked by the French).

Floyd used dope on this tour just like the others. He learned it while he was at Us postal, like every young pro learn it when entering a pro team if you don't want to be left behind. This is the culture in pro cycling.

Floyd is a very nice rider, he is just guilty in picking the wrong doctor unable to cheat the tests.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*good post!*



20.100 FR said:


> Well put out DirtBoy.
> I'm French, and i know the US pretty well. I worked there for 4 months. This helped me overcome the ideas i had before on the americans. Like everywhere around the world, there is some very nice people and some stupid dumbass !
> I do not feel close to certain stupid French, and have some american friends. Values and behavior count much more to me than the place were i was born. I choosed my friends, not the place i was born.
> 
> ...


very good post - there's nothing to ad.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*You to!*

I would also say, don't judge a country or people by it's leader no matter who it is! if people are nice, they are nice.
Again I can't wait to get to <st1>Europe</st1> next summer. First my families homeland of <st1:country-region w:st="on">Italy</st1:country-region>, the <st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region> and last but not least <st1:country-region w:st="on">France</st1:country-region> and <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1>Spain</st1></st1:country-region> A
And yes I told my wife, I will dress they way i like and don't mind looking like an American Tourist! 

Now back to bikes and doping ....

I will say that most athletes are on drugs of some type and it looks like Landis is BUSTED! :nono: :bluefrown:.

Now I will give you my opinion and theory and why I think Lance WAS clean post cancer!

Now I am fairly confident like most pro riders, lance doped before cancer and this might have brought on or accelerated his cancer. Now let's also remember, this guy was a freak of nature and very talented rider. He was beating older riders on the triathlon and Ironman races at the age of 16. he is one of the most naturally gifted athletes of our time with incredible genes.
During his cancer treatment, this guys was given SO many drugs of all sorts and experimental drugs to beat and recover from cancer. All these drugs in my opinion help create the rider he see today. Lance came back 20lbs lighter with the same strength! This resulted in a lighter rider with the same HUGE power output he had before.

Lance is also one of the most mentally tough and focused athletes we have seen. This guy was on his death bed and refused to let cancer beat him. He trained and trained like a mad man to prove to himself, other cancers patients and cancer itself that NOTHING was going to take him down and defeat him! His natural abilities, mental toughness and post cancer treatment made him the super human that we say win the TDF 7 times!

Add a really great team and dynamics that was SOLEY focused on getting Lance in yellow going into Paris <st1:city w:st="on"><st1></st1></st1:city>and the results are what you saw!!

I think after cheating death, this guy was not going to take nay chances with drugs that would jeopardize his health or possibly bring his cancer back.
He beat death, why risk it!

Most people don't have any idea what type on heart and fitness levels this guy has. He is a freak compared to most humans.

The guy has NEVER tested positive during ANY race that has been proven and he was tested more than anyone!

Now to play devils advocate, the drug labs that he was associated with and he supports like Squibb-Meyers could have developed drugs that were undetectable. If BALCO labs could do it, the largest of drugs companies could also.

BUT I stand by my opinion as stated above until he is TRULY proven to dope or admits it!<o></o>


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

Somebody still trust to tales... :madman:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Any you beleive 1 test on a samlpe that was waht, five years old? How the hell know what happended to that sample in 5 yrs.

The drugs and Lance's abiltiy are facts!I just try to piece the puzzle together. You believe that one test on a five year sample reported by a sometimes tabloid paper to be absolute truth? :madman: 

Maybe all that olive oil and wine over there has clouded your judgement .
 Drop the newspaper and take the canoli! <o></o>
<o>
</o>


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> Maybe all that olive oil and wine over there has clouded your judgement .
> Drop the newspaper and take the canoli! <o></o>
> <o>
> </o>


 Sì, pizza e mandolino... :skep: 
I'm only skeptical, that's all...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Just a joke...

I am too, but I think my theory holds water....


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> Now I will give you my opinion and theory and why I think Lance WAS clean post cancer!


And the other way around :
Don't you think that he was used to use so many drugs, that he was ready to absorb anything that he can to be able to recover and win a race ?
Ha has been in doctors hands since it's cancer, and never quitted them...

His relation with the Doctor Ferrari, notorious for his pro-drugs spirit, is well known.
Did you read the book "LA confidential" ? There's a lot of things in there...

Even if this guy was already an incredible athlete before is cancer, don't you think that Jan Ulrich wasn't ? He won a world title too. Do you think that there was so much differences between the level of the two so that drugs weren't suficient to help Ulrich beat Armstrong ? I doubt that.
I read a book by an ex french pro rider who confess of doping. He said that taking some stuff was like riding a motorcycle !!! If pro riders use drugs, it's because they make a difference. And a huge one. 
If you don't use them, you will be behind. Far behind.

Even if they are super freaks by nature, way more performant than us mere mortals, some things are just un-natural. I remember the EPO days. I was next to the road, near the end of an alpine stage of the tour. The riders were going incredibly fast, and moreover without blinking an eye ! Do you remember pantany looking so fresh after l'alpe d'huez ? Just like he had done nothing of his day ? This days are no gone with the Bloodtests. Everybody just use epo to get just under the normal level of oxygen in the blood.

There are some guys with a natural high oxygen level in the blood. These guys have lost their advantage other the others. So now doping is more on the muscles (with testosterone and growth hormone), and probably on efficienty to use the oxygen, with drugs we don't know (yet) about.
I can't believe there was some drug in track running that wasn't used in pro cycling. There is the money, and the guy ready to test evything in the pro ranks.

All this said, you can still admire Armstrong !
I like is technique, with a high pedaling frequency, and always avoiding crashes. I like his tactics, no very brillant, but so efficient. I like is incredibly focused mind. This guy has a really great psychology, and is all about fullfilling his goals.

But this guy is a liar. It took stuff. Just like the others. This doesn't remove him from being the best rider at his time.

V

PS :
French basketball players taking 10 kilograms of muscles in one summer when they are going to play in NBA. Do you think pro french player have never heard of musculation before ?
In NBA, NHL, and hockey, the doping is nicely done, organised and controlled by the league. This gives a nice spectacle, and not so bad health of the players (just a kidney from time to time, like Alonso Mourning...).
TDF ridders better have the same system, instead of using some unknow "pot belge" stuff.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Yes, I think all those drugs during cancer helped him in all those victories. Threy mad him even stronger than he was.

have you seen his vital stats? I think his heart can pump 2x the volume a normal human heart can. His V02 max? Power output? his numbers are off the charts!

All the TDF riders must be incrediable athletes. BUT all the drugs in the word won't make you win the TDF or any other tilte. YOU MUST already posses the skills and abilites. drugs just help you captalize on it.

Like barry Bonds. The guy could already hit the ball better than most players. Drugs just took him to another level.
So even if Lance and ALL the riders were on dope, Lance still beat them all 7 times!

I also think the demands of racing now awadays and length of races have made it nesscary in cycling to dope!

I also feel and have some knowledge of drug use going on in American Sports like the NFL, NBA, MLD and the NHL.

I heard and fell that it's controled by the leauge to a certain point. i always love when a college football player gets drafted and the analyts say "wai to he get's the the pros. They add another 20-50lbs to his body."

How? drugs IMO. You think trainer and food are that much better in the pros? Sure to a certain degree and the pro have more money.
but it's just falt out amazing how these guys get even bigger after using drugs from high school and college were they don't even test and where some coaches even tell you were and what steroids to take! yes this happened with my in HS and I know of several college programs were this happens. Corn feeding your boys only goes so far.....


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

When i see my time and Armstrong's at climbing the alpe d'huez, i for sure know that we don't share the same physiology.

It is very likely that if even if i used dugs (i do not take into account Bordeaux and Chartreuse  ) i would not ne able to even think of following him...

But as gifted as Armstrong is, there are other super athletes other there, who made it to the pro ranks. These other guys are freaks to, with incredible VO², power ratio, etc... values.
May be, if we compare all them without drugs, they are 5% slower (this is a big gap !). but the gain you can acheive with doping are strong. Much more than 5%. So i think it's still unlikely that i "clean" guy, even gifted like Armstrong, can win on pure water against other great competitor using enhancing stuff.

If Arstrong won so many times, it is very likely that he would have been the dominant rider if all the riders were clean to. I do think he would still be the best.

But we will never know. The only thing we know is that Armstrong cocktail of natural gift and enhancing drugs was faster than is competitors and their enhancing drugs.

So may be he has the best natural capacities, or may be is doctors/labs produce a better enhancing drug. In fact, i don't really care. I just take it the way it is : the guy and the drug combo. 
That's why i would like to see the pharmatecial labs name as sponsorts on the jersey. This would be more clear for everybody.


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## markom (Jan 21, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> have you seen his vital stats? I think his heart can pump 2x the volume a normal human heart can. His V02 max? Power output? his numbers are off the charts!


Just small detail, while his vital stats while excellent for a cyclist they are fairly modest compared to xc skiers stats from 90's and early '00's....
I was tested for V02 max as teenager and had something 70mmol and testers comment was something like "with values this low you're not going to waste your time in xc-skiing are you?".


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

Dirt boy: B sample positive.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

scapin said:


> Dirt boy: B sample positive.


Where did you get the info? Got a link?
Nevermind, here you go:

PARIS - Tour de France champion Floyd Landis' backup urine sample confirmed high levels of testosterone, cycling's governing body said Saturday, raising the prospect that he could lose his title.

Following the results of the "B" sample, Landis was fired by his Swiss team, Phonak. He also faces a two-year ban from USA Cycling, which is responsible for sanctions against the American rider.

"The analysis of the sample B of Floyd Landis's urine has confirmed the result of an adverse analytical finding notified by the anti-doping laboratory of Paris on 26th July, following the analysis of the sample A," the International Cycling Union said, referring to the Chatenay-Malabry lab outside Paris.
"Landis will be dismissed without notice for violating the teams internal Code of Ethics," Phonak said in a statement. "Landis will continue to have legal options to contest the findings. However, this will be his personal affair, and the Phonak team will no longer be involved in that."

The confirmed test sets off what could now be months of appeals and arguments by Landis, who claims the positive finding was due to naturally high testosterone levels. He has repeatedly declared his innocence and vowed to fight the allegations - and did so again Saturday.

"I have never taken any banned substance, including testosterone," Landis said in a statement. "I was the strongest man at the Tour de France, and that is why I am the champion.

"I will fight these charges with the same determination and intensity that I bring to my training and racing. It is now my goal to clear my name and restore what I worked so hard to achieve."

If found guilty, Landis would become the first winner in the 103-year history of cycling's premier race to lose his Tour crown over doping allegations. The title would go to Spain's Oscar Pereiro, the runner-up.

Landis' lawyer is preparing to take the case to arbitration, said a statement issued by his spokesman, Michael Henson.

The two-tiered analysis at the Chatenay-Malabry lab, which is accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency, is designed to eliminate the chance for mistakes in the first test.

Henson said this week that the rider had tested positive for an testosterone-epitestosterone ratio of 11:1 - well above the 4:1 limit.

On Friday, Henson said Landis was in the San Diego area, but no further details of his whereabouts were given.

The tests were conducted on urine samples drawn July 20 after Landis' stage victory in a grueling Alpine leg of the Tour, when he clawed back nearly eight minutes against then-leader Pereiro - and back into contention to win the three-week race.

The UCI is expected to refer the case to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency for handling. The process could take months, possibly with appeals to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Landis' Spanish lawyer, Jose Maria Buxeda, has said he still believes Landis will prove his innocence,

"He's pretty sure we will be able to prove ... that it is due to natural causes," Buxeda said.

Landis, a 30-year-old former mountain biker, says he was tested eight other times during the three-week tour and those results came back negative.

"I'm going to do my best to defend my dignity and my innocence," he said on CNN's "Larry King Live" last week.

Landis has hired high-profile American lawyer Howard Jacobs, who has represented several athletes in doping cases.

Jacobs plans to go after the UCI for allegedly leaking information regarding the sample testing.

Earlier this week, a New York Times report cited a source from the UCI saying that a second analysis of Landis' "A" sample by carbon isotope ratio testing had detected synthetic testosterone - meaning it was ingested.

"I call on the UCI to start following its own rules and to allow this process to proceed without the further taint of public comment by UCI officials," Jacobs said in a statement Saturday.

Since the Phonak team was informed of the positive test on July 27, Landis and his defense team have offered varying explanations as to the high testosterone reading - including cortisone shots taken for pain in Landis' degenerating hip; drinking beer and whiskey the night before; thyroid medication; and his natural metabolism.

Another theory - dehydration - was rebuffed by anti-doping experts and contrasted with events during stage 17 itself when Landis rode alone for hours.

So, his defense so far seems pretty weak. Beer and wisky the light before his big race? WTF!!! That's just crazy talk.


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

On an italian journal: http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Sport/2006/08_Agosto/05/landis.shtml


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*Ofcourse....*

did you think it might be differnt?

Now the FACTS are out:

His testosterone was NOT elevated. His epitestosterone was lower than normal.
The more relaible and positve carbon isotope(?) was not done yet. If it's done and comes back positive, he is DONE!
This lab is the same lab that screwed up sprinter's Butch Johnson career with false and in accurate testing.
They are very close to le Euipe who leaked possible fasle info on EPO testing on Lance.
Now if the crabon testing comes back and proves the testosterone in Landis' system is synthetic, he is guilty! I don't care how it got in him. he should NOT allow it to happen, unless it was tainted by te lab.

One of the top professors in the US on Steriods in Sports Charles Yersalis(?) thinks something is fishy/wrong with the test/findings.

But it does not look good for him and it's sad to see it happen. I am just glad that the UCI system does not run the justice system in the US .
Doping testing is so flawed so somethimes it hard to get the truth out. The lab is always procalimed right and the athlete is always lying.....


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

Is it a conspiracy? That's ridicolus... :nono:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Your never know...

Let's see, Lance and 3 of his top teamates have now been busted:
Roberto Heras, Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis. Only Levi Leipenhimer has not.

Or these guys are all dopers and stupid enough to get caught.

My thing is this. If Landis did dope on that stage, why win that stage? You KNOW the winner will be tested. Or he never pallned on winning. He thought others riders would go chase him and they did not. 
Then he screwed up!

I am honestly not sure what to think. But have you noticed one thing? most Euros think he is guilty and most of the US thinks he is clean.....

Conspiracy? I guess we will never know!

If Landis is trully guilt, good rittnes to him and I hope never to see him ride again!

What do you have to say about that lab we scrwed up an American's carreer??


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*please!!!*



DIRT BOY said:


> Your never know...
> 
> Let's see, Lance and 3 of his top teamates have now been busted:
> Roberto Heras, Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis. Only Levi Leipenhimer has not.
> ...


Gio and others,
please stop that america vs. the rest of the world thing! this has nothing to do with a rider beeing american or not. he was tested positive which is the reason he got disqualified. that's it. as simple as that. "we" non americans treat Ullrich and Basso and all the others the same way as we do with Floyd or other caught riders. it's a shame and hurts cycling in general. but we all know they dope and still we are shocked when they get punished...strange, really strange.

if you hear what the normal, non cycling people think about all this then you will understand cycling is going in a wrong direction. i think big sponsors will most likely withdraw sooner or later. this whole dope thing hurts cycling in general. sad, really sad.


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

nino said:


> Gio and others,
> please stop that america vs. the rest of the world thing! this has nothing to do with a rider beeing american or not. he was tested positive which is the reason he got disqualified. that's it. as simple as that. "we" non americans treat Ullrich and Basso and all the others the same way as we do with Floyd or other caught riders. it's a shame and hurts cycling in general. but we all know they dope and still we are shocked when they get punished...strange, really strange.
> 
> if you hear what the normal, non cycling people think about all this then you will understand cycling is going in a wrong direction. i think big sponsors will most likely withdraw sooner or later. this whole dope thing hurts cycling in general. sad, really sad.


It's true. :thumbsup:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Nino,

I am not sayng that with everyone. BUT yes, Ullrich and Basso are being treated the same and I will agree. But it it seems like the American riders get more of a guilty wrap from Euros. Maybe it's it's not as bad as I sometimes see, but it can be there. I have not heard one non-american even think that Landis is not guilty.

What about the things I posted? comments?

I am personally start to wonder about it myself. Look being an American and Italian I thnk Basso is guilty, but think maybe, just maybe Floyd is not. Ullrich, guilty and money paid to Fuentes proves that!

Cycling is going down a very bad road. the other day riding my bike, someone in a car yellped "doper" at me...yah right.....


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*US press...*



DIRT BOY said:


> Nino,
> 
> I am not sayng that with everyone. BUT yes, Ullrich and Basso are being treated the same and I will agree. But it it seems like the American riders get more of a guilty wrap from Euros. Maybe it's it's not as bad as I sometimes see, but it can be there. I have not heard one non-american even think that Landis is not guilty.
> 
> ...


might it be the US journalism? i know you get informed quite different than "the rest of the world". i have family in the US and they tell me how different the view of you guys sometimes is because all the media is kind of one view only. this is the case with wars all over the world and terrorism and might also be the reason you see things different now when a US athlete gets accused. i know you guys are quite a bit patriotic, more so than most other countries i know of (sorry for speaking in this general manner, i might be wrong as well by putting all americans in the same group). but you might understand what i mean. my english isn't good enough to express me really precise here.

i and 99% of the rest of the world don't care what the french press writes. we get the facts as they are and right now it really doesn't look too good for Floyd, Basso, Ullrich and all the others.

by the way - what happened to Tyler Hamilton? didn't he promise to show the world his positive results were false as well....no comment.


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> Cycling is going down a very bad road. the other day riding my bike, someone in a car yellped "doper" at me...yah right.....


:bluefrown: What evidences do you want? For me you never believe that ALL the riders are doped.
You too...  :lol:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

US press and as many Euro papers that I can find or read. I aslo get info from Eurosport.

The major problem is Euro and US sources that throwing crap out to get the scoop on the story without checking facts and using stupid aynomous sources.

Look the US media is not perfect and NEITHER is the Euro press. 

If you look at the facts, you will see somethingis not right!

His testosterones levels were NOT higher than normal that the US and euro press both said. Epitesterone is low. NO ONE has confrimed that Sythetic testerone has been found. Until then, there coul dbe other medical reason that the RATIO was off or the lab is wrong.

Why don't they use another independant lab chosen by Landis' team the the UCI/TDF?

If synthetic hormones are found, Landis has NO excuses.

Tyler Hamliton is guilty as hell in my eyes. And yes, what happend to him proven he is not guilty? Kinda like OJ.....


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> Tyler Hamliton is guilty as hell in my eyes. And yes, what happend to him proven he is not guilty? Kinda like OJ.....


Exactly. You tell about justice from a country that execute only who doesn't afford excellent lawyers... :nono:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

And you think Italy's justice system is perfect? UK? France? Germany?

Come on...The US justice sytem is well respected. yes I good layer can get most people off. Why, because stupid jury get mesmorzed by these sweet talker and don't always listen and understand the facts!

NO Justice sytem is perfect, but I will take my chances in a US Court any day.


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> And you think Italy's justice system is perfect? UK? France? Germany?
> 
> Come on...The US justice sytem is well respected. yes I good layer can get most people off. Why, because stupid jury get mesmorzed by these sweet talker and don't always listen and understand the facts!
> 
> NO Justice sytem is perfect, but I will take my chances in a US Court any day.


NOW, the facts tell Landis is positive, LATER Landis can prove it isn't true.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

No, the test shows his epitesosterone to tesosterone levels are off. Yes in the UCI terms this is a positive test. BUT if and they admit his testerones leveels are in FACT his noraml levels and just his epistersterone levels are off, we need to find out if anhting he did/took threw his levels off on his ratio.
BTW, the EURO press was the first to say they found Sythetic testesterone which is FALSE. that has not been tested for yet.

The facts are:

His testosterone levls are normal.
His Epitesosterone are not causing his RATIO to be off.
This is an infraction UCI rules.
No synthetic testosterone has been found.
Until the test and confrim for Sythetic testosterone, we his not truly guilt of doping. he he took synthetic test, his overall test levels would ride.

Now did some other legit medicine cause his levels up epi to go down, or a masking drug or another dope source?

This is what we truly need to find out. Regardless, this man was tired in a Jury of the Press (US & Euro) even before his A test even came back!

Until the CAS says he is guilty he is not done yet or stripped of his title.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*ahem...*



DIRT BOY said:


> No, the test shows his epitesosterone to tesosterone levels are off. Yes in the UCI terms this is a positive test. BUT if and they admit his testerones leveels are in FACT his noraml levels and just his epistersterone levels are off, we need to find out if anhting he did/took threw his levels off on his ratio.
> BTW, the EURO press was the first to say they found Sythetic testesterone which is FALSE. that has not been tested for yet.
> 
> The facts are:
> ...


he got tested before and after that as well and there his levels were normal. strange thing, don't you think? he now tries to say it was either the beer or other medicines that caused the test to show this result. ahem...sorry, that's very fishy indeed


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

No, beer or other medicine lowered his epitest! There are many medical legitimate reasons why that his epistest went lower. We just need to see if they apply to him

Let me ask you a question. If you were found GUILTY for anything, whould YOU not try to fine EVERY reason why you possibily are not?

Yes and all those tests show his test levels have remained the same. Just his Epitest is off, causing the ratio to go off one one stage.

Again, until the carbon test and CAS say he is guilty I will whithold judgement! Eevn though in my heart I am starting to sway towards guilty. Why? Because pro cycling is a dirty sport!


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

nino said:


> he got tested before and after that as well and there his levels were normal. strange thing, don't you think? he now tries to say it was either the beer or other medicines that caused the test to show this result. ahem...sorry, that's very fishy indeed


100 beers? ut: :madman:


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## go-pirates (May 8, 2006)

AP reports are saying synthetic testosterone was indeed found. Landis has been fired from Phonak, and will most likely be stripped of his TDF title. He had so many supporters who wanted to believe. What a sad day for cycling.


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## Whafe (May 27, 2004)

It sure is a sad day for cycling...............I so dont knwo what to believe anymore. We know so many dope etc..........................You want to believe they dont etc etc ...............

So feel I am dammed if I do believe and dammed if I dont...

Living in Spain now from New Zealand, there is no ill feeling towards US riders at all, form those in cycling that I speak with. They hold all TDF riders and pros in high esteem.........Not dopers though, and understandably......................


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*AP reports and others are worth as much as the*

crap I took this morning. UNTIL the UCI and the USADA release an offical report, I won't believe it,

Funny but he is not accused of taking abanned substance, just have abnormal readings.

And you know what i think too? If Floyd is guilty by the UCI and he is honstley clean or he doped due to Phonaks request or mandate, she should come clean and tell the truth! BUST Phonalk and any other team that is putting pressure or forccing these guys to dope.

This is Phonaks' what third or fourth bust? Two high profile riders in Landis and Hamiltion! Why not? His pro carer is over after this!


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## go-pirates (May 8, 2006)

Alrighty then...

News ->Latest news

05/08/2006: Press release : The adverse analytical finding from Floyd Landis is confirmed 


The UCI communicates that the analysis of the sample B of Floyd Landis’s urine has confirmed the result of an adverse analytical finding notified by the Anti-doping laboratory of Paris on 26th July, following the analysis of the sample A. 

In accordance to the Anti-doping rules, the Anti-doping Commission of the UCI will request that the USA Cycling Federation open a disciplinary procedure against the rider. 


UCI Press Service


Top

Copyright © 1997-2006 Union Cycliste Internationale. All rights reserved.

Français Printable version


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

nino said:


> might it be the US journalism? i know you get informed quite different than "the rest of the world". i have family in the US and they tell me how different the view of you guys sometimes is because all the media is kind of one view only. this is the case with wars all over the world and terrorism and might also be the reason you see things different now when a US athlete gets accused. i know you guys are quite a bit patriotic, more so than most other countries i know of (sorry for speaking in this general manner, i might be wrong as well by putting all americans in the same group). but you might understand what i mean. my english isn't good enough to express me really precise here.
> 
> i and 99% of the rest of the world don't care what the french press writes. we get the facts as they are and right now it really doesn't look too good for Floyd, Basso, Ullrich and all the others.
> 
> by the way - what happened to Tyler Hamilton? didn't he promise to show the world his positive results were false as well....no comment.


Very good post. :thumbsup:

Moreover, DirtBoy, are you able to read another language than english ? May be italian ? I think most of english and american press share a pretty close point of view. (see on the irak war or economics for a good example).

I think you should let go the French conspiracy stuff. There is no French nowhere near the podium. L'equipe sells a lot of paper from the TDF, wich they invented. They do not want to brake it. Landis was pretty popular here, and was welcome as a more charismatic guy than Armstrong. Is particular childhood (who sees so strange to us) was very intertaining !

So what, this year TDF winner was on dope ? What's new ? 
It has been for that for years. Do you remember the Anquetil years ? He confessed taking stuff.
And next year ? It will be the same. All people in pro sport are going to use stuff. Thats needed to brake records and keep the entairtainement. Next year tdf winner will use stuff too.

Sport as never been good to your body. Physical activity is ! Next year, look at the tour to see the beautiful French countryside, look at the new bikes, may be the chicks on the podium, and use the rest or the time to go riding enjoying yourself rather than supporting drug enhanced human rats !


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Still, it does not say SYNTHETIC HORMONES FOUND!


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

I amily use translators, but I can uderstand some Spanish and a little Italian.
Funny, but I find the BBC to best one of the best!

You know I don't think it's has anything to do with the French people. Just a lab that might just suck and is possibly dirty and L'Equipe being behind things.

Then agin, the TDF does NOT need bad press like this and out of 103 TDFs NO WINNER has ever been stripped.

Before someones' career and livelyhodd is stripped form them, let's be REALLY, REALLY sure he is in the wrong. Why not have another lab or two test the results? let's run a real test on Landis himself. If he is clean, submit a blood sample! If you are clean, this will let tell the truth!!!

This is really hard to say what is truly going on.....


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*blood samples?*



DIRT BOY said:


> I amily use translators, but I can uderstand some Spanish and a little Italian.
> Funny, but I find the BBC to best one of the best!
> 
> You know I don't think it's has anything to do with the French people. Just a lab that might just suck and is possibly dirty and L'Equipe being behind things.
> ...


you can take almost ALL blood samples of Tdf riders and won't be able to find anything. that's the art of doping to the limits. blood doping itself can't be seen at all if everything is done correct. that's why several top athletes never have/had any positive tests....but it doesn't mean they are clean.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> Still, it does not say SYNTHETIC HORMONES FOUND!


How's this for some gas on the fire:

Floyd Landis' doping samples contained synthetic testosterone, indicating the Tour de France champion's elevated levels were not produced naturally, the head of France's anti-doping commission said Saturday.

Pierre Bordry, who heads the French anti-doping council, said the lab found that testosterone in Landis' urine samples came from an outside source.

"I have received a text message from Chatenay-Malabry lab that indicates the 'B' sample of Floyd Landis' urine confirms testosterone was taken in an exogenous way," Bordry told The Associated Press.

The revelation could damage Landis' defense prospects. He has claimed the testosterone in his body was "natural and produced by my own organism."

The American cyclist's backup "B" sample came back positive Saturday, confirming the original "A" test. 
Landis could be stripped of the Tour title and banned for two years.

Testosterone, a male sex hormone, helps build muscle and improve stamina. The urine tests carried out on Landis after his victory in the Tour's 17 stage turned up a testosterone/epitestosterone ratio of 11:1 - far in excess of the 4:1 limit.

A report this week in the New York Times cited an unidentified source from the UCI as saying an analysis of Landis' first sample by carbon isotope ratio testing had detected synthetic testosterone, which indicated it had been ingested.

Jacques De Ceaurriz, the head of the Chatenay-Malabray lab, said the isotope testing procedure involving a mass spectrometer is totally reliable.

"It's foolproof. This analysis tells the difference between endogenous and exogenous," he told the AP. "No error is possible in isotopic readings."

Landis spokesman Michael Henson disputed that.

"There is no conclusive evidence that shows that this test can show definitively the presence of exogenous testosterone," Henson said.

But World Anti-Doping Agency chief Dick Pound said the tests were scientifically valid.

"The overwhelming scientific consensus would hold these tests are reliable and what they found is what they found," he told the AP. "Had there been any scientific difficulties or technical difficulties we would have heard about it."

Pound said confirmation of the synthetic testosterone finding would undermine any Landis defense.

"It's probably a very good preemptive move to close down yet another avenue of complaint or argument," he said. "The science is pretty well accepted. The history of these tests are pretty well established."

Associated Press Writer Jamey Keaten and AP Sports Writer Stephen Wilson in London contributed to this report.

I'm not a scientist but it appears pretty clearly that synthetics were discovered. Do you have conflicting info?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*I still want an "Offical" report saying...*

there was Synthetic tes found. If so, then Landis is guilty on tow things.

Stupid enough to dope
Stupid enough not to make sure notig he gets is tamperd with.
I wonder if the Phonak team is behind this and possibly drugs thier athletes without their consent. Phonak is a dirty team. 9 riders in 3 yrs have been busted. Yes, maybe Floyd knew about it and did on his own, maybe he was FROCED by Phonak to dope or again he is too stupid to know what goes in his body!

If he know comes to the defense that others have used "I have not knowingly too drugs" I think I wil puke! No elite athlete has any excuse not knowing what he takes with strict doping rules.

Also POscar gets the tiltle, good for him. Is he the true winner with the gift Floyd and Phonak gave him? Not sure, but we he was given the jersey we rode and defended it well!

Floyd, if you doped, *YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!! *I was not really a fan, but after watching this tour and stage 17, this guy pulled my in and I felt so great watching him! What of F'in was of time tat was .....

If Phonak is dirty, Flyod should turn the tables on them and bust this whole thing wide open showing TEAM and SPONSORS are also pressuring riders and make them dope! why not, your pro caereer is DONE!


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

Just finished to read l'Equipe.
The Landis affair only made the small titles in page 11.
They say that exogen testosterone was found. A lot of other experts hired by landis atorney were present for the test of the B sample.

Anyway, you still know my point of view. No-one of this guys are clean.


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

Surely they're not all doped. The difference between the best and the worst riders is much greater than between a clean and a doped rider, both in time trials and on climbs.
Suppose all were doped to da max, except for Lance (or Landis). would the yank be hanging from the back of the field? Even without doping regulation and testing, I would not believe that to happen. So surely many of them are clean, just using legal additives of which they don't make secrets to the UCI, just to rivals. There's so much legal to just get a little edge, for every body function you're targeting, true doping is just not worth the risk. A bit of lowered epitestosterone is not going to boost your performance over a diet of just dry bead and clear water to the level of good nutricion and smart additives.


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

...Almost makes ya wonder. After his bonk stage, he made it a point to say he was going to crack open a few beers, only to say the alcohol (beers and Jack) could be the reason for the elevated levels. Think he had the synthetic testosterone readily available and knew he was going to use it?:skep: :skep: 

Just a thought. Maybe a stretch though.


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

And now Pereiro isn't queasy anymore...


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

Cloxxki said:


> Surely they're not all doped. The difference between the best and the worst riders is much greater than between a clean and a doped rider, both in time trials and on climbs.


This is very far from true !
Read old drug users stories, or just try some products for yourself !

You will see for sure that even a really great athelete can't be ahead of good guys + products....

There was an interesting study on french tv tonight, about recent drug affairs, in the US (Landis and Gatlin). They say that the way we deal with supplements are very different. This is casual stuff in the us, but is considered "border edge" in France. But the main big difference is in mentality:
In the Us people prefere to be at the top, a winner, even if they died at 40, rather than being just average and living up to 80... This is so strange to me....

There was a nice interview with former track star Stephane Diagana, who said that it would be better to enhance financial repression against doppers. He said that you can win a lot of money in sport, and use doping for that (a nice doping program a world level cost 100 000 $). Even if this guys get caught, they just comme back 2 years latter and continue to make big bucks. Look at Marion Jones !!! He said that with this system, there always going to be able to find someone ready to take the risk to be able to go up it's social class.
Giving huge financial penalties to doppers would prevent this.


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

If you just ban dopers for life, that works too.

What I was getting at : the worst rider of the TdF isn't going to smoke a fit but clean Lance.
Festina was stuffed with EPO, at least most of them even admitted. They already were one of the strongest teams before the (1998?) scandals, but that year they were pretty dominant. All were good climbers before, but they almost faught each other on hill that year. Apparently the teams they won some ground on, were not into EPO yet. But Festina was not the "loser" team before they found EPO.

I do believe that if I'd boost my hematocrot from it's probable 44% (never checked) to 50%, I'd probably make a step up in my sports class. Maybe do nicely in elite. I won't be challenging my (clean) heroes though, they have too big a lead over me.
If you're having for instance Meirhaeghe, Absalon and Brentjens each at the peak of their ability ever, monitored 24hrs non-stop for a long time, checking everything they're taking, and only one of them gets all the dope he want, as long as he stays negative in tests, sure he'll win the race. But a random elite won't beat these guys just like that with some dope. Look at Erwin Bakker, extremely telented. when he doped he made a leap forward that everyone had been expecting from him, but he never won something big, while on EPO and steroids, with strong determination.

What I mean to say : dopers suck, but not all pro's suck that way. But I myself do take care of myself in races I value. I use sugars in my drinks, I use herbs and other additives that are not on the doping list and everywhere to buy. I have pretty wild asthma but I don't use Ventolin because I want to do without, even if I can get a waver for that pretty easily.
Don't forget that many people are too scared to cheat. In school, they didn't dare to cheap, afraid of being caugt. Who wouldn't steal a simple pen (I did once, and it made great impression on me, so I never repeated), etc, etc. Afraid of being caught, or just really righteous. You do not have to be a doper to become a pro, if you're sufficiently talented. If you unsufficiently talented, but evil enough to dope, your pro career won't be very long.

Rant over, time for bed.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*money...*



Cloxxki said:


> What I mean to say : dopers suck, but not all pro's suck that way.


don't forget that we are talking about pro riders. they all have talent or they wouldn't have be in teams...right? they make their living by riding bicycles. the better the more.

i read some interviews of a former swiss pro rider,also winner of some Tdf stage (Rolf Järmann if i'm right). after he quit riding he admittet he had doped, epo etc. he explained how it was all done and he surely knows how wide doping is used in the pro ranks. he says that a minor effect of 2% makes you earn so much more money that it's hard to stay clean.

then there was an article in TOUR magazin, europes biggest roadie magazine from germany. they explained how blood doping is done and that it can raise your power output by ca. 5%. if done right blood doping can't be tested!! only if the doctors don't work clean enough or if something goes wrong blood doping can be shown. but they say it's pretty common these days in all endurance sports.

yur theory of some guys being better than others is sure true BUT some guys, especially in past TdFs, simply rode like machines. never showing some weaknesses day after day. unlike this years tour, where you first thought things hvae changed. almost everyone had a bad day. some a really bad one. to me that really looked like some human beeings again. too bad the Landis case ruins this fata morgana again...


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

Ok I have three questions... things that don't add up to me

1. Landis' Testosterone/Epi level was 11:1, highest allowable is 4:1, right? Ok. But wasn't it also true that his Testosterone level was on the LOW end (according to what I read, ESPN)? So then the Epi level was super low. Does having a low Epi level make you better and do any doping methods leave your testosterone alone and lower Epi level? WHY would someone do that?

2. Landis was tested 7 other times in the tour and came back normal. So let's assume he takes something that makes him fail the test for that ONE STAGE. Would it really make that big of a difference or any at all for one stage? Does a testosterone or rather low epi levels make a difference for one day???

3. What were his normal Testosterone and epi levels since they had 7 other tests? Did his Testosterone level spike up or his epi level spike DOWN?

Food for thought, screw all that nationality talk


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*leave it to those who know!*



bhsavery said:


> Ok I have three questions... things that don't add up to me
> 
> 1. Landis' Testosterone/Epi level was 11:1, highest allowable is 4:1, right? Ok. But wasn't it also true that his Testosterone level was on the LOW end (according to what I read, ESPN)? So then the Epi level was super low. Does having a low Epi level make you better and do any doping methods leave your testosterone alone and lower Epi level? WHY would someone do that?
> 
> ...


if it makes sense or not isn't of interest. sometimes you'll find some stuff which only acts to cover other supplements... sometimes that's just a result of having taken something and the corps responds differently...anyway - they showed a clear discrepancy. now it's up to Floid to prove how the stuff came in there.


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

fair enough, I agree Floyd has had a bad test and needs to prove his innocence and why it came up. 

I'm just saying this seems to be a bit more obscure case then just the "we found epo in his blood" cases, do you agree? And also speculating why his test would come up like this for one day only


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

bhsavery said:


> fair enough, I agree Floyd has had a bad test and needs to prove his innocence and why it came up.
> 
> I'm just saying this seems to be a bit more obscure case then just the "we found epo in his blood" cases, do you agree? And also speculating why his test would come up like this for one day only


"...testosterone in Landis' urine came from an outside source." This is pretty straightforward. Synthetic testosterone was discovered. This is key regardless of the ratios of epi. to test. issue. It's very akin to testing for and discovering EPO on a test, to my mind. Bottom line is ya can't take in exogenous testosterone and still be a clean racer. They found it and now he's gotta come up with an argument to override this fact. Hopefully it's better then the beer and wisky argument.


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

A French 1500m runner got caught by the federation before the euro champs, and was not allowed to go to sweden by the French federation...

Marion Jones is back on the track and people applaud her :madman:


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## babar (Feb 20, 2004)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/12/sports/othersports/12cycling.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

very similar to what l'equipe was saying  ...but now it the NY times :thumbsup:



> Ex-Teammates of Cycling Star Admit Drug Use
> 
> Jacky Naegelen/Reuters
> Frankie Andreu, right, with Lance Armstrong in the 1993 Tour de France. Andreu says he took drugs to help Armstrong win the race in 1999.
> ...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Good for frankie! He admits that he doped and NEVER saw lance do it. he was not good enough like most Doms to keep up with the best and must dope to survive.

Untill someone flat outs says "I saw Lance dope" or his tests are PROVEN to be doped, then please let this die.

yes many guys in cycling dope and some will never get caught. 
IMO, you can't really say a guy is a doper, unless he is caught!

But i am glad frakie said something. he also sang like a Canary because he is now out of cycling. Sour grapes? I whish the other rider would identifiy himself. 

I would love to see a BIG TIME rider just come claean and bow the whistle on the whole damn sport, team directors, sponsors, whoever is pressuring these guys to dope.


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> Good for frankie! He admits that he doped and NEVER saw lance do it. he was not good enough like most Doms to keep up with the best and must dope to survive.


Ha Dirt Boy, you make my day !

Your will not to see the what is evident is incredible 
Well, mankind needs some heroic figures to be able to live. What would life be without dreams ? 

Last week i spoke with a pediatrist who used to work for a pro team during the tour. He told me that the tour organisation gives special garbage cans for seringles, and collects them at every stage... :skep:


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## babar (Feb 20, 2004)

it's clear that TDF organization needs ISPN media coverage$$$ and was protecting idols such as Lance from bad surprises :madman:


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

Awesome! To be able to help Armstrong, "normal" world class athletes need to dope!

Would Lance have been a doper already when he beat all of the triathlon world in a sport he just picked because it seemed like something he might do better at than ballsports? He was 16 at the time, BTW... The guy just is a genetic freakcase. If he'd take dope, he'd quit the sport out of boredom. No fun lapping the field in a world championship, each time... He's an athlete to compete, you'll know when you read his books. Not to overclass the rest of the world whatever crimes it takes.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Malol the Tool,

Can't even get Floyd's name right, implicates Lance, what a tool, looks like he could body double in the Ant Bully..


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Cloxxki, correct. this guy at 16 yrs old was beating men BADLY at triathlons.

i guesss he oped at 16yrs old. The guy is a freak like we have never seen!

yes, all those drugs (steriods and what not) from cancer made him even stronger. I say this again, without cancer Lance would have NEVER become the athlete we say today. cancer recovery and treatment made him even stronger along with his will!

remember, after cancer he came back 20lbs lighter with more muscle and more power than he had pre-cancer. That drug routine made a awesome athlete even greater!!


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

I´d like to hear again all those who defended Lance Armstrong. Where are you now?


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

Nino banned for dark business activities... Dirt Boy, tell us something about your dear Lance Armstrong now, come on...


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## WarBoom (Dec 13, 2011)

Really 6 years dead and you brought it back?


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

MaLoL said:


> I´d like to hear again all those who defended Lance Armstrong. Where are you now?


Then go speak with your hombres Contador, Indurain, Valverde, etc. They all came out in support of Armstrong, more than likely to cover their own doping (but alas Contador and Valverde have already served suspensions of their own and will have to decide now if they can truly ride 2013 clean or not).


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

So so really. Absolutely really. 6 years is the exact weight that took these guys to face the truth...

So, where are the Lance fans now? heeeellloooooo?

Losers!!!


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## limba (Jan 9, 2004)

Get rid of this guy and this thread.


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## SamoM (Nov 21, 2011)

Lance never doped!


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Testimony by people caught cheating to get sweeter deals to avoid more sanctions/prosecution from sport governing bodies isn't proof that'd pass muster in an actual court room, and it also doesn't explain how in nearly two decades of racing, he never failed any tests conducted by the UCI at the Olympics.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

WarBoom said:


> Really 6 years dead and you brought it back?


He's just a lifeless ******* who has nothing better to do than troll up old threads...


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## turbogrover (Dec 4, 2005)

I heard that MaLoL was caught, and suspended for doping at the local amateur level.


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> Testimony by people caught cheating to get sweeter deals to avoid more sanctions/prosecution from sport governing bodies isn't proof that'd pass muster in an actual court room, and it also doesn't explain how in nearly two decades of racing, he never failed any tests conducted by the UCI at the Olympics.


You are completely right. Technically. But then, going back to earth, to reality, not only that he clearly doped, a lot, but these american companies, NIKE, TREK, OAKLEY and GIRO, bought UCI. Of course, not technically, not in front of a jury. That will never happen to them, they have good lawyers. But in planet earth, they did.

So sorry...


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## JTeezy (May 1, 2006)

MaLoL is the only guy I have ever seen on MTBR with one RED square as his "rep" rating...


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

historeeteacher said:


> MaLoL is the only guy I have ever seen on MTBR with one RED square as his "rep" rating...


Uuuuhhhh, OMG a red squarein "rep"!!!!!!! what a discovery. Do you work in NASA or similar? I´m here since 2004 boy, I know a thing or two about cycling, and about american "cyclers", sweetheart.

BTW, anybody here is mentally able to go back to the thread topic, or you just don't have enough neurons?


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> He's just a lifeless ******* who has nothing better to do than troll up old threads...


The guy who lives in his mother's basement calling me lifeless???? That was funny, indeed.

Not trolling and old thread, it just happens that i opened this thread, and, dear lance "never doped" armstrong is full of ****. I even feel sorry for him. Not for those losers who defended him back then.

As always, reality goes far beyond fiction, and time puts everybody in the place they deserve. *******s in cycling forums included...  :thumbsup:


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## raganwald (Mar 1, 2011)

limba said:


> Get rid of this guy and this thread.


I don't know about "this guy," but unless someone can explain what Lance has to do with lightweight mountain bikes and/or what Performance-Enhancing Drugs have to do with lightweight mountain bikes, I really wonder if this worthy thread would be better served in a different forum.

Posts of carbon and titanium micro-dosing syringes integrated into 29er frames notwithstanding.


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## JTeezy (May 1, 2006)

Tough talk...sweetheart. 

You sound like an only-child crying to his mommy after the playground bully kicked sand in your face.


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

No Lance fans anymore? what happened? Sandy hurricane killed them all??? where did you hide?


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## JTeezy (May 1, 2006)

Wow...I'm speechless. What...did your parents not hug you when you were a kid?


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## bikerguy (Jan 28, 2004)

Over 700 posts and a red block for rep power... Seriously, how hasn't this guy been banned yet? Don't feed trolls!:thumbsup:


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

bikerguy said:


> Over 700 posts and a red block for rep power... Seriously, how hasn't this guy been banned yet? Don't feed trolls!:thumbsup:


another off-topic post. Very nice.


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## ryguy135 (Sep 24, 2010)

Lance fan here! He may have lied, cheated, and stolen (keyword MAY, let me see a positive test please!), but in doing so he progressed cycling in the US exponentially. 

Hey, let's try to get him TWO red blocks!!


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## Thatshowiroll (Jan 30, 2009)

raganwald said:


> I don't know about "this guy," but unless someone can explain what Lance has to do with lightweight mountain bikes and/or what Performance-Enhancing Drugs have to do with lightweight mountain bikes, I really wonder if this worthy thread would be better served in a different forum.
> 
> Posts of carbon and titanium micro-dosing syringes integrated into 29er frames notwithstanding.


WTF? Why is this in WW?


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## jesse101 (May 23, 2011)

this guy sis a tool! i would never in my life cast shame onto Lance Armstrong! the guys is still an american hero no matter what the outcome is! everybody during that time period did anabolic steroids, or some type of performance enhancement drugs!. I highly doubt, you give the average joe a gallon of steroids, he would never in his life achieve what lance has with those 7 tour de france wins. 

I also do not see any notable evidence specifically showing lance taking steroids during those tours. I could honestly care less! Get over it people, the guy is an awesome athlete! and by any means should they strip away those wins...that is absolute ignorance. i wonder if they will strip Mark mcguire of his world series win, or Jason Giambi or Jose Conseco..its stupid.


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

jesse101 said:


> this guy sis a tool! i would never in my life cast shame onto Lance Armstrong! the guys is still an american hero no matter what the outcome is! everybody during that time period did anabolic steroids, or some type of performance enhancement drugs!. I highly doubt, you give the average joe a gallon of steroids, he would never in his life achieve what lance has with those 7 tour de france wins.
> 
> I also do not see any notable evidence specifically showing lance taking steroids during those tours. I could honestly care less! Get over it people, the guy is an awesome athlete! and by any means should they strip away those wins...that is absolute ignorance. i wonder if they will strip Mark mcguire of his world series win, or Jason Giambi or Jose Conseco..its stupid.


I completely agree with that. Of course he was doped, and very well doped, but also he tested positive at least once, in 2001. He managed to cover that with a backdated prescription from his doctor. This is all in the USADA file.

What is very intriguing, is that the other riders who testified against Lance, in exchange, USADA promised just a 6months ban (between october and march, out of season, so no ban at all) and not to touch their money prices; USADA bought these witnesses.

If you look at other Lance team mates, like Chechu Rubiera, he said that he never saw Lance doping, although of course he saw it, just like any other riders saw doping to Indurain, or Ulrich or maybe Contador, but these guys repected the Omerta, the law of silence, not like these USPS riders who sold themselves again...

I just hope Lance tries to counter attack with th TAS, in a swiss court, where witnesses can not be bought like the USADA did.


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## turbogrover (Dec 4, 2005)

MaLoL said:


> I completely agree with that...


:lol: He called you a tool, and you agreed with him!
Awesome!


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

turbogrover said:


> :lol: He called you a tool, and you agreed with him!
> Awesome!


so cool, right?


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## SamoM (Nov 21, 2011)

Speaking of red reputation blocks...I'm a little affraid to express my opinion now, so I wouldn't get a few more. And why did I get the red block? For saying that Lance never doped. He was NEVER positive on any test, which is true. So I don't really know why you people hate so much?!


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

MaLoL said:


> I completely agree with that. Of course he was doped, and very well doped, but also he tested positive at least once, in 2001. He managed to cover that with a backdated prescription from his doctor. This is all in the USADA file.
> 
> What is very intriguing, is that the other riders who testified against Lance, in exchange, USADA promised just a 6months ban (between october and march, out of season, so no ban at all) and not to touch their money prices; USADA bought these witnesses.
> 
> ...


It was 1999, for a corticosteroid. Hamilton and Landis also alleged he paid to cover a 2001 positive for EPO at the Tour de Suisse. I am sure Nino could tell the Spaniards a thing or two about how much nicer the Tour de Suisse is than the Vuelta d'Espana but I digress. Back to cleaning up Maolo's inaccuracies, it's CAS (not TAS). Armstrong tried suing for jurisdiction already in the US, Malol. His lawyers argued that the UCI should have jurisdiction and the argument was dismissed by a US judge. It was then Lance threw in the towel on his defense, he knew he was done.

The "testimony" arrangement is typical in US courts, a lighter sentence in exchange for corroborating evidence and eyewitness testimony. It is also admissible in a US Court of Law, btw. Funny dee eight (who is Canadian) commenting on US law.

Malol-why not comment on how all of the Spaniards are frauds? Contador, Valverde, Big Mig all coming out in support of Armstrong despite overwhelming evidence that he doped. And the evidence is overwhelming, knock it off with the "never tested positive" defense. Al Capone was convicted for tax evasion, not murder and racketeering that were his most heinous crimes. But it is accepted as fact he engaged in both.

What is this doing in weight weenies? Well, Malol (who is Spanish) used to argue with Nino and Didier (who are Swiss) and dirtboy (who is American) incessantly on this forum years ago. This thread was a dig at Malol's American detractors more than anything.


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## reformed roadie (Mar 30, 2008)

Wow...what a cluster fuÇk this thread is...
Why is it allowed to exist in the W.W. forum?

First of all, who cares if you have a red square on a mountain bike forum on the internet...I hope you're not losing sleep over that.


MaLoL - not sure what your motivation is, but a Spaniard trying to call out American pro road racers as dopers is a bit hypocritical, don't you think? Two words: Operation Puerto.
Spain is widely recognized as being the dirtiest country in cycling.
Why do you think all the Americans were living in Girona?
The two biggest names in Spanish cycling at the moment recently served 2 year suspensions for doping..."Mr. Pot, I have Mr. Kettle on line one, should I put him through?"

Anyway, I have long thought LA was guilty and a fraud...and a D.B. All of this to me is well deserved, as the facts come out.


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## limba (Jan 9, 2004)

I'm giving rep to roadie then unsubscribing. Oh, before I go I vote to make Rockyuphill a mod. He's a smart, well mannered guy. If you piss him off, you're a tool and get what you deserve.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

reformed roadie said:


> Wow...what a cluster fuÇk this thread is...
> Why is it allowed to exist in the W.W. forum?


Excellent point. Not sure why Malol is not banned, he brings nothing but hatred to MTBR.


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

differences is this: spaniard dopes didn't buy UCI and what not. NIKE, GIRO, TREK and OAKLEY did buy UCI, that is the big difference, as simple as that. So cut the ********, all are dopers, that's what I say, and ****ing stupid yankees were defending LA just before this scandal, so accept reality, dont come with stupid excuses and ****ing burocracy. Face the truth.


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## JTeezy (May 1, 2006)

Two words for MaLoL: therapy


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

Dopers gonna dope!!!


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## Huskywolf (Feb 8, 2012)

The thread that nevar dies.


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## markw1970 (Oct 8, 2007)

Wow! Not been on this forum for over a year... There's no denying - MaLoL was correct. See you again in 2014


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