# E-Bike Full Disclosure



## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

I spent seven years working in a big successful bicycle shop as a sales person. Cycling truly is one of my life's passions. Like a lot of bike shop employees I had a very smug attitude towards E-bikes. My thoughts were people shouldn't be so damn lazy and do the work themselves. I'm in my fifties, if I can do it, anyone can do it. Blah, blah, blah. Truth be told the thing holding E-bikes back from exploding in the market place even faster are bike shop employees. There is a lot of resistance from within.

So fast forward a couple of years. I've moved to a different city, different job. Farther north with worse winters. Instead of working in a bicycle shop selling bicycles I'm working in a motorcycle shop selling motorcycles. Motorcycling is another of my passions, has been for 48 years since the age of 10. I feel fortunate that I've been able to spend the last 17 years of my life mixing my passions with my work.

I have not owned a car for 15 years. My bicycles have been my main form of transport. I have a bike for every condition I may encounter commuting in my city. We have a great river valley trail system.

Last winter my commute to work was 12.5 km each way. I average 500 km a month in the winter, less in the summer because I commute on my motorcycle some days. I ride a Surly Troll with 650b studded tires. Depending on conditions I would average 13-15 km/hr. It would take 45-60 minutes depending on conditions, last snow fall etc. 45-60 minutes is pretty much my limit when it's -20 Celsius or colder. Keeping fingertips and toes warm becomes a challenge.

As we know nothing ever stays the same. The MC shop I work at has moved a further 8 km from where I live. My 1 way commute has turned into 20 km over night. I can do the distance, that's not a problem. It's the added time to the commute.

I am faced with a few choices. Firstly, do what most people would do and buy a car. It would make life much simpler, maybe? I really don't want the added cost of the vehicle itself, fuel and insurance. Or the added stress of having to share the road with other motorists.

Or I can use an E-bike to save time. If I average 15km/hr pedalling maybe I can average 20-25 km/hr on an E-bike? Combatting wind-chill will become more important but I can deal with it with the right riding gear.

Remember what I said earlier about there being resistance from bicycle shops employees towards E-bikes. Here in a motorcycle shop we have no such qualms. The shop I work at has just received our first shipment of E-bikes. We believe it just may be a perfect fit. Everything else we sell, motorcycles, snowmobiles, ATVs, UTVs, personal watercraft etc. are powered by engines.

For me it adds another dimension to my work. I get to be our test rider. We are working directly with a factory so are able to spec. the bikes to the needs and wants that are specific to our customer base and terrain. I'm totally excited. And I have to admit that they are so much fun to ride. I never would have thought those words would have come out of my mouth 3 years ago. As I said nothing stays the same.

So if you are in the Edmonton Alberta river valley and someone comes ripping past you on an E-bike, no faster than 32km/hr of course, instead of cursing me like I would have done in the past give me a wave because I still may have a few kms to go before I can get out of the cold and could use the encouragement.

An E-bike for me is an alternative to a car. I'm not sure which model I'm going to ride yet. I'm choosing between these 2.


Echo Cycle E-Bikes by Echo Cycle, on Flickr

Echo Cycle E-Bikes by Echo Cycle, on Flickr


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## e-wa (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for sharing your experience


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It seems like the perfect application for your situation, I'd buy one for commuting as well if I had the need. My ride is short, so it's easy on a bike.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

if only they were all just commuter vehicles.... you probably wouldn't feel the need to explain yourself... because no one would care.


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

^ 2/3 of my commute is through a river valley where I have the choice of riding the shared paved pathway or off road on some pretty good single-track. If I choose the dirt am I still just commuting?


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

I don't think anyone here really has an issue with people using e-bikes for commuting. Sounds like a good solution for you.

Any concerns about the added speed when using a shared path? Some of the ones here are crazy to the point I won't even use them, others I have to myself 95% of the time. Sub freezing temps tend to empty them all out.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

I've seen a lot of negativity to e-bikes. It's, pathetic.

I bought an e-bike because of a knee injury years ago. I'm better now but there are moments where my knee kicks out and hurts to bend/walk. Let alone I haven't worked out much over the past few years due to my knee injury!

Needless to say - it sucks having to defend an e-bike, explain myself and not be accepted as just a guy who wants to enjoy something other than driving my full size SUV!

I've had my E-bike for two weeks now. I estimate I ride under my own power about 1/2 my overall 55 miles on the clock. The other 1/2 is either assisted power. A few times I've done pure throttle but that's mostly to just haul faster to a safer section of a bike path road so I don't get hit by a crazy cali driver!

Any who - They have their place. And like any mechanical hunk of metal - it really comes down the individual operating that hunk of metal. Hopefully safely and responsibly!!


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

ImaBum said:


> I've seen a lot of negativity to e-bikes. It's, pathetic.
> 
> I bought an e-bike because of a knee injury years ago. I'm better now but there are moments where my knee kicks out and hurts to bend/walk. Let alone I haven't worked out much over the past few years due to my knee injury!
> 
> ...


They do have their place, on OHV rrails. I don't know anyone that rides 55 mile rides on a regular basis. Its ok to ride for 20m and call it a day.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Saddle Up said:


> Remember what I said earlier about there being resistance from bicycle shops employees towards E-bikes. Here in a motorcycle shop we have no such qualms. The shop I work at has just received our first shipment of E-bikes. We believe it just may be a perfect fit. Everything else we sell, motorcycles, snowmobiles, ATVs, UTVs, personal watercraft etc. are powered by engines.


 Odd that employees who sell human powered bikes would be reluctant to sell ebikes but a motorcycle shop that sells things with engines wouldn't. 
Oh, wait... the main crux of the concern with access issues moving forward isn't it?


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

Is the red one a 2x2? I would sooooo love to test drive one of those things.


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

The red one has dual batteries, one in the front hub, the other on the down tube.


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

formula4speed said:


> Any concerns about the added speed when using a shared path?


None, riding an E-bike won't change that I'm respectful of other users. Now that September has arrived I'll soon have the path mostly to myself.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Saddle Up said:


> Remember what I said earlier about there being resistance from bicycle shops employees towards E-bikes. Here in a motorcycle shop we have no such qualms. The shop I work at has just received our first shipment of E-bikes. We believe it just may be a perfect fit. Everything else we sell, motorcycles, snowmobiles, ATVs, UTVs, personal watercraft etc. are powered by engines.


That makes perfect sense to me because IMO electric bikes have more in common with motorcycles than they do with bicycles. It seems more logical to think of them as ultra-light motorbikes than "enhanced" bicycles but I suppose that doesn't make as much sense financially for e-bike companies.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

I'll echo the remark about no negativity towards e-bikes used for commuting (even the Sierra Club is promoting them); it's when e-bike recreational use gets flaunted as "bicycling" do tensions mount. Want a motor? Get a motorcycle.

Speaking of; why aren't you considering a moto for your commute? I always commuted by moto until I started a family at age 36. Then again when my kids were old enough "to fend for themselves". No denial here that moto's are dangerous, but so are bicycles as a form of transportation.

Maybe what you really need is a good horse?


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Its not like any "added speed" is uncontrollable, it's (stating the obvious here, but it seems the point needs to be stressed) totally controlled by the rider. When I ride my 1500 watt ride amongst others, you think I'm going as fast as I can, hell no, I go the same speed or slower. We probably all have vehicles that can go 100 mph, but we drive them at a safe speed for the conditions, same thing for any ebike. If you're going too fast, you're a jerk, no matter what you ride. Guys bombing dh on mtbs on a crowded trail cause more problems (that I've seen anyway) then any ebiker going up.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

pp, you know that, I know that, the rest of the world with the exception of a few on this forum knows that.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

sfgiantsfan said:


> They do have their place, on OHV rrails. I don't know anyone that rides 55 mile rides on a regular basis. Its ok to ride for 20m and call it a day.


No they do not. That is such a stupid thought. Lets place a bicycle with assistance on a trail where ATVs/Motorcycles capable if MUCH higher power/speeds & much more mass share a common trail. That's like tossing a golf cart onto the highway. See how stupid that idea is? I say that because you know a golf cart sure can't keep up with a 70mph vehicle. And if it did it sure wouldn't be safe in an accident given the mass of the other vehicles on the roadway!

Now there is a cross where golf carts can (in most states) be operated on roadways of max 45mph as long as they have proper signaling. So they can go on slower roads and golf courses. You try driving your personal vehicle on a golf course and let me know how that works out for you. Until then - your argument is null.

Also - I don't ride 55miles each trip. I only do about 6 miles or so a day. I said 55 miles on the clock as in total miles combined traveled.



J.B. Weld said:


> That makes perfect sense to me because IMO electric bikes have more in common with motorcycles than they do with bicycles. It seems more logical to think of them as ultra-light motorbikes than "enhanced" bicycles but I suppose that doesn't make as much sense financially for e-bike companies.


I disagree. lets use these two examples. A motorcycle and a bicycle. We can ALL agree that yes a motorcycle and bicycle share the same common form of two wheels, levers for brakes, handle bars and tires. And I'm sure we can all agree that they are both in their own category given their function/use/handling/ect.

If you place pedals on a motorcycle will it be more in common with a bicycle? If so, why? I say it doesn't because all you did was add pedals, a 2nd mode of power to a setup that still mimics other motorcycles much more than a bicycle.

Now take the bicycle and add a small motor. Other than adding a bigger hub that turns a wheel and a battery - does it look more and have more in common with a motorcycle? If so, why?


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Its not like any "added speed" is uncontrollable, it's (stating the obvious here, but it seems the point needs to be stressed) totally controlled by the rider. When I ride my 1500 watt ride amongst others, you think I'm going as fast as I can, hell no, I go the same speed or slower. We probably all have vehicles that can go 100 mph, but we drive them at a safe speed for the conditions, same thing for any ebike. If you're going too fast, you're a jerk, no matter what you ride. Guys bombing dh on mtbs on a crowded trail cause more problems (that I've seen anyway) then any ebiker going up.


Well said.

I average around 12mph on my bike per my cycling app on the phone (usually under my own power, 7th gear). My bike can do 25mph (regulated to 20mph, state requirement).


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Its not like any "added speed" is uncontrollable, it's (stating the obvious here, but it seems the point needs to be stressed) totally controlled by the rider. When I ride my 1500 watt ride amongst others, you think I'm going as fast as I can, hell no, I go the same speed or slower. We probably all have vehicles that can go 100 mph, but we drive them at a safe speed for the conditions, same thing for any ebike. If you're going too fast, you're a jerk, no matter what you ride. Guys bombing dh on mtbs on a crowded trail cause more problems (that I've seen anyway) then any ebiker going up.


Well sure, which is why I've always been happy to see the jerks who ride too fast in inappropriate places be limited in equipment to what they have to pedal. I have rarely seen 8" travel DH rigs on our trails since there's no way to shuttle, and no lifts. You have to push them or suffer through their crappy climbing capabilities. Which no one obviously does a second time.

Now though, with a motor on them, you can easily ride a full blown DH bike up and do laps where ever you'd like. We'll see bigger bikes and guys riding more milage on them than they do now on a trailbike. Jerks will be jerks and by removing what physical limits that are currently in place, you're only enabling more of it.

Don't be misled into thinking that everyone will ride like you two (or me). The largest market share of ebikes sold in Germany in the last year has shifted from old farts to young people. Having been young once, I expect that the experience they are after is not just to be able to keep up with their buddies on the climbs.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> No they do not. That is such a stupid thought. Lets place a bicycle with assistance on a trail where ATVs/Motorcycles capable if MUCH higher power/speeds & much more mass share a common trail. That's like tossing a golf cart onto the highway. See how stupid that idea is?


I ride bikes on moto legal trails all the time, some of the best riding in the west is on moto legal trails, it's not stupid at all. The expectations of all users on a moto trail is that people will be traveling at higher rates of speed than those typically seen on non motorized, especially on sections where you normally wouldn't, which IME changes how you ride.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ImaBum said:


> Now take the bicycle and add a small motor. Other than adding a bigger hub that turns a wheel and a battery - does it look more and have more in common with a motorcycle? If so, why?


I understand the semantics argument (ploy) from e-bikers but I find it absurd. There is no debate, the moment a motor is added it ceases to become a bicycle because by definition (Webster's, not California's) a bicycle does not have a motor.

So even tough it may look more like a bicycle it has more in common with motorcycles. It's an ultralight motorcycle.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

I mix with moto's often, and its always amazing how fast they can shoot up a trail I just climbed at single digits. Never had any conflict with them, they were paying attention and good riders. The closet call I've had was with a mtbr hauling ass downhill, even that was no biggie as he too was paying attention and a good rider. I certainly didn't have a problem with him, we laughed about it! Shows to go ya that a great variety of riders can mix if all pay attention point being. Claiming bad folk are on the way.....who will cause problems, is futuristic thinking, you're guessing in other words. Deal with speeders and reckless behaviour the same way you do now, be it moto. ,mtbr, e bikes or ( my personal fear) 1 ton horses. Call them out for it. To prophecy an invasion of high powered jerk ebikers, that will raise so much hell so quickly, that anything on 2 wheels will lose access before the barbarians can be dealt with, is guesswork In the months I've been " here", nothing has changed, no actual horror stories ( and we ebikers know you guys are salivating over the possibility ("e biker on single track runs over Girl Scout and her handicapped great grandmother"), it has not happened. Meanwhile locally a while back a mtbr DID run over a 84 year old hiker on a mult. use trail, and then rode off to his car and hauled ass out of there.Too bad he wasn't an ebiker I guess.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I understand the semantics argument (ploy) from e-bikers but I find it absurd. There is no debate, the moment a motor is added it ceases to become a bicycle because by definition (Webster's, not California's) a bicycle does not have a motor.
> 
> So even tough it may look more like a bicycle it has more in common with motorcycles. It's an ultralight motorcycle.


 Maybe you should live in this Webster place since in California a bicycle can have a battery and an electric motor........ I'm pretty sure that state law takes precedence over the dictionary, no matter where one lives.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> Maybe you should live in this Webster place since in California a bicycle can have a battery and an electric motor........ I'm pretty sure that state law takes precedence over the dictionary, no matter where one lives.


California native and long time e-bike fancier here; what the Calif. law actually says is that if a bicycle has a battery and a motor less than 750 watts and travels at no more than 20 mph by electric power then it is a Class 1 or Class 2 "electric bicycle"; in other words no longer just a "bicycle" but an "electric bicycle". Just because those 2 classes of e-bikes can go where bicycles are permitted _*unless banned by local ordinance*_ does not mean they are "bicycles". They're still in reality just mo-peds with a legal loophole permitting wider use.

Also the OP is in CA as in Canada not CA as in California. YMMV.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Harryman said:


> I ride bikes on moto legal trails all the time, some of the best riding in the west is on moto legal trails, it's not stupid at all. The expectations of all users on a moto trail is that people will be traveling at higher rates of speed than those typically seen on non motorized, especially on sections where you normally wouldn't, which IME changes how you ride.


You think a low power e-bike can compete with ATVs and dirt bikes at "higher rates of speed"??

You're nuts. Seriously.

This is coming from a guy with experience with both dirt bikes, ATVs and jeeps on the off road trails of Colorado. No way in hell would I EVER ride my e-bike on those trails. I'd get beat up. That includes everyone laughing at me.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I'm afraid these guys will see a rerun of "The Wild One" and start accusing us of terrorizing their towns, raping their women and robbing banks.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Back to the "bike shop employees looking down on people who buy eBikes". That is hysterical.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Bike shop employees look down on most people that walk in the door anyways. 

If you hang out with them long enough you'll quickly figure out why. 

For one, many of them ride 2-4k mi / year and are in the top 5% of climbers, descenders, you name it. 

Secondly most people who walk through the door consider bikes these magic voodoo devices. They pay $25 to tighten hub cones. They complain that "the gears aren't working" when a quick turn of the barrel adjuster will fix it. They put their quick releases on wrong, riding one bad bump away from certain death for God knows how long. 

So that sentiment isn't just limited to ebikes.


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

pliebenberg said:


> Speaking of; why aren't you considering a moto for your commute? I always commuted by moto until I started a family at age 36. Then again when my kids were old enough "to fend for themselves". No denial here that moto's are dangerous, but so are bicycles as a form of transportation.


If this was directed at me the answer is simple. Winter. I live in Edmonton Canada.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Saddle Up said:


> If this was directed at me the answer is simple. Winter. I live in Edmonton Canada.


Yes it was and I know the winters there are harsh; personally I'd prefer to be on a moto than on a bike because with the moto it's easier to wear adequately warm (and bulky) riding gear.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Procter said:


> Bike shop employees look down on most people that walk in the door anyways.
> 
> If you hang out with them long enough you'll quickly figure out why.
> 
> ...


I would think those services to fine tune or fix a bike is very profitable for a bike shop. $25 for 20 minutes worth of work? If those little tasks from customers without the proper tools, knowledge or simple desire to support their local bike shop is a reason why shop employees look down on people walking thru the door..

It keeps the lights on and helps blend their work, passion and hobby into an 8 hour day. They should be delighted and friendly


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

Saddle Up said:


> None, riding an E-bike won't change that I'm respectful of other users. Now that September has arrived I'll soon have the path mostly to myself.


I should have worded that better, I was mostly wondering if the other users would be the speed handicap. So even though you can theoretically put down the power with the e-bike, if you have walkers/joggers/slower cyclists in front of you it wouldn't do any good. Empty path should be all good. Didn't mean to imply you'd be a jerk because you got an e-bike.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

ImaBum said:


> I would think those services to fine tune or fix a bike is very profitable for a bike shop. $25 for 20 minutes worth of work? If those little tasks from customers without the proper tools, knowledge or simple desire to support their local bike shop is a reason why shop employees look down on people walking thru the door..
> 
> It keeps the lights on and helps blend their work, passion and hobby into an 8 hour day. They should be delighted and friendly


 That's the difference between an owner and an employee. The owner is the one making the profit from the 20min jobs and the employee is the hyper-cool, serious rider who has to do BS tasks for morons... Surf shops, ski shops, stereo shops, bike shops, exotic cars shops: they all rely upon the "you are not worthy" sales model. Staff up with snobs who look down their noses at most of their customers and convince the buyers that they too can join the cool-kids club if only they spend enough.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> That's the difference between an owner and an employee. The owner is the one making the profit from the 20min jobs and the employee is the hyper-cool, serious rider who has to do BS tasks for morons... Surf shops, ski shops, stereo shops, bike shops, exotic cars shops: they all rely upon the "you are not worthy" sales model. Staff up with snobs who look down their noses at most of their customers and convince the buyers that they too can join the cool-kids club if only they spend enough.


Your self esteem seems really suspect if you think everyone operates like that. What a twisted view of the real world you have.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I guess you have never spent time in a Ducati or Ferrari dealership, nor shopped for an audiophile sound system..........


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> I guess you have never spent time in a Ducati or Ferrari dealership, nor shopped for an audiophile sound system..........


I have no knowledge of any pattern of that at the dealers, the Porsche dealership never condescends. Your parallel universe may be that fubar though.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> I guess you have never spent time in a Ducati or Ferrari dealership, nor shopped for an audiophile sound system..........


I kinda see what you're saying.

Like when I rolled up to the Tesla dealership in a 2012 Ford Fusion and wanted to buy a P85D. Not much attention. Just another guy swinging in to peak at the most desired pure electric car. Very little attention. Only after I opened my cheap gym bag and pulled out 10/10k stacks and laid it on the table did they go ahead and pull out their camera phones snapping pictures and think I was the coolest guy ever.

Everyone is judgmental. Sadly that's the world we live in.

Flip side is I don't buy gas. Which means I don't pay fuel tax. So I wear-n-tear the roadways at your expense. This is the electric world we live in now. Middle fingers up fossil fuel suckers. Kidding. I'm not like that.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ImaBum said:


> Middle fingers up fossil fuel suckers.


Those electric bikes are pretty efficient but they still run on fossil fuel.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ImaBum said:


> Middle fingers up fossil fuel suckers. Kidding.


Hold Zealots or Jihadists with the highest suspicion.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Those electric bikes are pretty efficient but they still run on fossil fuel.


That sort of depends on an individual's life situation; if you're off-the-grid and doing the solar or wind thing you'd be a long ways from the dinosaurs. Yes almost everything built these days has a huge fossil fuel footprint; once built and delivered many devices are very "green".


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Those electric bikes are pretty efficient but they still run on fossil fuel.


Speak for yourself. My 3 ebikes are 100% renewables powered. Wind, micro hydro, PV, or some combination of all three.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

pliebenberg said:


> That sort of depends on an individual's life situation; if you're off-the-grid and doing the solar or wind thing you'd be a long ways from the dinosaurs. Yes almost everything built these days has a huge fossil fuel footprint; once built and delivered many devices are very "green".


Pretty green, but for now dinosaur fuel is still building the solar panels, wires, batteries, panels, inverters, etc. etc, and some of those things (batteries in particular) have a very limited lifespan.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Speak for yourself. My 3 ebikes are 100% renewables powered. Wind, micro hydro, PV, or some combination of all three.


See above post.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Fossil fuels are used to build most of everything. But post-production - that's where saving the earth comes in. And for that - we should all hug each other while rolling around in dirt. No ****. 

Seriously tho - this debate can go on an on forever.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Back in the dark ages of electric vehicles somebody did a life cycle analysis of an EV with SLA's and came to conclude that any fossil fuel potentially saved was lost in the manufacture (and/or recycling) and transport of those batteries. (Based on battery mfg. in China and end use in USA) It was "greener" just to stick with an efficient ICE vehicle.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Pure grid tie here, " we don't need no stinking batteries! " If the grid goes down, I light a candle, no big deal, batteries are so 20th. Century.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Pure grid tie here, " we don't need no stinking batteries! " If the grid goes down, I light a candle, no big deal, batteries are so 20th. Century.


Exactly!!

Nice thing about e-bikes, unlike motorcycles (roll eyes), is that when the power goes out and you can't charge them precious batteries - you can still pedal!!

Jokes on me - Motorcycles use gasoline. BAM!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Pure grid tie here, " we don't need no stinking batteries! " If the grid goes down, I light a candle, no big deal, batteries are so 20th. Century.


I think grid tie is great but those systems are still 100% dependent on dino fuel.

And what would an electric bike be without archaic 20th century batteries?


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Procter said:


> Bike shop employees look down on most people that walk in the door anyways.
> 
> If you hang out with them long enough you'll quickly figure out why.
> 
> ...


If a guy who earns $500 an hour walks into a bike shop and pays $25 an hour to have his helmet strap adjusted, who is the idiot?

Answer: The one who looks down on the other.

All of my interactions with the shop where I got my eBike have been awesome. If they look down on me, they hide it well.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think grid tie is great but those systems are still 100% dependent on dino fuel.
> 
> And what would an electric bike be without archaic 20th century batteries?


 My utility is largely hydro powered FWIW. Doesn't matter anyway, if I'm recharging my ebike when gravity is working...... my hydro electric generator alone satisfies the bike charger (300 watts). In effect, my bike is micro hydro powered. My bike is recharged by MY power, not the utilities. Now, once winter hits, and the hydro is shut down until spring, and if the PV system is down for the night, AND there's no wind, my needed power to recharge WILL come from the grid, but it's power I put in there months earlier. Of course they sold it, moved it along to wherever it was needed, but it saved them using their hydro or maybe their Wyoming coal plant.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> Those electric bikes are pretty efficient but they still run on fossil fuel.


How much energy goes into the production of the fuel that goes into your MTB motor? ;-)


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

daven007 said:


> How much energy goes into the production of the fuel that goes into your MTB motor? ;-)


About the same amount as for the average person who sits behind a desk (or an ebike) everyday. Probably less actually.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> About the same amount as for the average person who sits behind a desk everyday. Probably less actually.


Riding burns calories. Calories come from food. Food needs to be produced. Food production requires energy.

If you live in a place where you don't know how much you pay for a kWh of electricity off of the top of your head, your bike is probably powered indirectly by coal and oil and is no more efficient than driving a car.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

daven007 said:


> Riding burns calories. Calories come from food. Food needs to be produced. Food production requires energy.


And yet the average sedentary American still consumes more calories than I do. I can easily roll a 2 hour ride on 2 bananas, how far will 2 bananas take your electric rig?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

daven007 said:


> If you live in a place where you don't know how much you pay for a kWh of electricity off of the top of your head, your bike is probably powered indirectly by coal and oil and is no more efficient than driving a car.


i guess I'll have to add delusional to the list of afflictions e-bikers seem to suffer, I'm running out of paper!

Most everything in the world is indirectly powered by coal including your electric bike.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> And yet the average sedentary American still consumes more calories than I do. I can easily roll a 2 hour ride on 2 bananas, how far will 2 bananas take your electric rig?


Assuming you are 130 pounds, and average 14-16 mph for 2 hours, you would need 10 bananas worth of energy. Not 2. Roughly 1200 calories.

That's how the human body works.

Bananas come from far away on giant ships that burn "bunker fuel" oil.

I didn't start the ridiculous discussion of energy consumption, and it is silly to go back and forth with a person who believes that they can "roll 20 miles in two bananas".


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

daven007 said:


> I didn't start the ridiculous discussion of energy consumption, and it is silly to go back and forth with a person who believes that they can "roll 20 miles in two bananas".


I agree, nearly as silly as continuing a discussion with someone who believes cars are as efficient as bicycles!


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> I agree, nearly as silly as continuing a discussion with someone who believes cars are as efficient as bicycles!


I get it. As with the rest of the anti-eBike sentiment on this eBike forum, this a religious discussion.

Yes, if you include the energy inputs that go into the production of the bananas you eat, that is factually correct.

...and that doesn't consider cost.

All this talk about bananas has me hungry.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

daven007 said:


> I get it. As with the rest of the anti-eBike sentiment on this eBike forum, this a religious discussion.


Judging from the outrageous and irrational posts from the pro electric bike crowd here it would seem so.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> You think a low power e-bike can compete with ATVs and dirt bikes at "higher rates of speed"??
> 
> You're nuts. Seriously.
> 
> This is coming from a guy with experience with both dirt bikes, ATVs and jeeps on the off road trails of Colorado. No way in hell would I EVER ride my e-bike on those trails. I'd get beat up. That includes everyone laughing at me.


Compete? Who's compteting? I've spent 30 years riding bikes on multi use, moto legal trails without being beaten up or laughed at. Ok, some of my crashes have been pretty funny, so, yeah, I've been deservedly laughed at.

You wouldn't want to ride this on your ebike? It's horrible isn't it....


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## ApolloMike (Nov 5, 2014)

Electricity is under 10 cents a kwh, and bananas come from the tree in the back yard, not a ship burning Dino fuel from far far away. 

YMMV. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Harryman said:


> Compete? Who's compteting? I've spent 30 years riding bikes on multi use, moto legal trails without being beaten up or laughed at. Ok, some of my crashes have been pretty funny, so, yeah, I've been deservedly laughed at.
> 
> You wouldn't want to ride this on your ebike? It's horrible isn't it....
> View attachment 1092243
> ...


I believe you're splitting hairs. Sure, I'll give you the fact that there are some motorized trails that are worthy to bike on. Your photos however suggest that those are not ATV compatible.

Mass majority of trails open to dirt bikes, ATVs and jeeps are not made to safely operate a class I or class II e-bike. Of course my exposure to these types of trails will vary from your exposure and knowledge. We live in a big world and no two places are alike.

Except McDonalds.

Further more - I strongly believe that class I or class II e-bikes are probably more targeted to campers, handicapped folk and city folk. I know my e-bike would make hitting true mountain bike trails easier - but it's not like I wouldn't be putting any work in waving my legs out in the air like a fairy. Just being honest here.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Random fact - I did a 9 mile bike ride today on one of the local bike trails. 7/8 of my trip was no pedal assist. I cruised along at a nice 9mph average through majority of the multi-use paved trail system. Only time I used pedal assist was up some (posted signs) 9% hills where I could use a slight boost near the top of the hill in order to keep going. 

Being my first time on this trail and I checked out the spider legs. A few "entry" points of the trail had signs posted "No motorized vehicles". Others had "No motorized vehicles or motorized bicycles". All these entry points are access points to the main trail. Max these entry points are 1k feet in length and generally come in from off the street and some park parking lots. 

Now per California state law - "An electric bicycle is not a motor vehicle." 

The entry point where I parked and entered at was a simple "no motorized vehicles". Naturally I kept on with my happy self and rode the whole trail system and enjoyed my morning. Only a single hot chick didn't say "good morning" back to me. Everyone else on the trail either gave a passing by wave or a "good morning". 

How would any of you handled your morning on this trail with an e-bike? Would the lack of clarification or inconsistent signage stop you or would you have continued with your work out?

Just trying to get some insight on what would have been the best way to approach my ride. I was only out there to enjoy what my tax dollars pay for and upon entry of the trail I did look for the rules and regulations signs which had no mention of "electric bicycles" and did follow the trails "15mph speed limit".


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> Mass majority of trails open to dirt bikes, ATVs and jeeps are not made to safely operate a class I or class II e-bike.


I wouldn't consider anything a jeep or ATV rides on a trail, singletrack is what I think of when I think of a trail. Something that wide I'd call a road, which is probably the reason for our different viewpoint.

The label "motor vehicle" is a specific one and is the class that requires lights/license/registration etc like a motorcycle or truck. To make it confusing, most but not all places consider any vehicle with a motor a motorized vehicle, including ebikes. So, if the sign says "no motor vehicles", you're good to go. If it says "no motorized" the only way to know for sure is to ask.

I wouldn't ride an ebike illegally here on bike paths since I know all the rangers, park staff etc although you could always plead ignorance. There's no specific signage yet.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

I get what you're saying. Proves there are lot of differences out there when it comes to "trails".


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

I had similar-ish experience. Trailheads to a State Recreation area that touches BLM and USFS land marked "no motorized vehicles" with no mention of motorized bicycles. Other access points said "no motor vehicles". I was shown an image by a State "person" of the sign that would include Class 1 eBikes. Right now they are hammering out the details with the Feds. The advice I received was "Don't act like a jerk, and no one will notice you. We don't patrol trails. We are stretched too thin with the idiots who don't wander more than a few hundred yards from parking lots. We have no interest in harassing people for no reason." The only looks I got where at an intersection of several trails where my group stopped for a bit. My buddy who had tried my bike on a previous ride was insisting that everyone try my bike, so passers by were curious. 

I'll be very candid and say that I was VERY self conscious when our group of four overtook people on the trail. I made sure I was in the rear so if someone noticed me they would see that the three other guys that just passed them were on regular bikes.

I did same back when I got my first front-suspension bike. It seemed like a miracle at the time. Now that bike appears comical. I certainly saw NO ONE riding anything as primitive.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

daven007 said:


> I had similar-ish experience. Trailheads to a State Recreation area that touches BLM and USFS land marked "no motorized vehicles" with no mention of motorized bicycles.


Let's pretend you're not in California and you've never heard about any legislation proclaiming that an electric bike is a bicycle.

Now, how in the fork is a motorized bicycle different from a motorized vehicle?


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> Let's pretend you're not in California and you've never heard about any legislation proclaiming that an electric bike is a bicycle.
> 
> Now, how in the fork is a motorized bicycle different from a motorized vehicle?


The levo you have to pedal, I haven't yet found a car that requires pedaling.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mojoronnie said:


> The levo you have to pedal, I haven't yet found a car that requires pedaling.


But, you continue to use the Levo as the only example of motorized bicycles and we all know that there are many more, including ones that pedaling is not required. The car analogy is a straw man argument.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Let's pretend you're not in California and you've never heard about any legislation proclaiming that an electric bike is a bicycle.
> 
> Now, how in the fork is a motorized bicycle different from a motorized vehicle?


Being a Colorado resident I can state that (in my eyes) "motorized" mean a motorcycle or ATV when there is "motorized " on a sign. Colorado is a very bicycle friendly state. Especially Boulder. You'd have to tell me an e-bike would be the same category / meaning.

Look, you're trying to pick hairs here. An e-bike is still a bicycle with its size, function, handling, interchangeable parts, ect. We all get it has a motor on it for assistance. If you removed the pedals I can see it being categorized as a motorcycle. Wtf is a moped? Another word for a motorcycle? Let that sink in for a minute.

Accept the fact an e-bike is a subcategory of a bicycle. I assume ebikes are fairly new and cheaper making them more obtainable thus more frequent. And laws will need to adjust to accept this new format of transportation. Just like when drones started to rapidly gain popularity, new laws needed to be made and existing laws needed to be modified.

Tesla cars are pure electric. Road funding comes in part with fuel tax. More tesla on the road, less money collected. Laws are now being changed to adapt to this sub-category vehicle.

"Motorized bicycle " means a bicycle with a motor. Your bike with a motor. Aftermarket motor. Factory motor.

"Motorized vehicle" I would assume would be a motorized vehicle registered with the state that must follow state laws for legal operation.

Don't try to feed us some BS about a motorized vehicle includes a bicycle. If it did then we wouldn't see signs everywhere saying "no ATVs allowed" or "no motorcycles allowed" or even "no golf carts". Then we would see (like I saw today) signs that say "no electric bicycles" so that it's clear given the new uprise.

Back to my neat Jameson


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mojoronnie said:


> The levo you have to pedal, I haven't yet found a car that requires pedaling.


If you cross the right 2 wires you don't.

-and also what tiretracks said



ImaBum said:


> Look, you're trying to pick hairs here.


_I'm_ splitting hairs? Good stuff Imabum, keep it coming!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> Being a Colorado resident I can state that (in my eyes) "motorized" mean a motorcycle or ATV when there is "motorized " on a sign. Colorado is a very bicycle friendly state. Especially Boulder. You'd have to tell me an e-bike would be the same category / meaning.


Lol, "in your eyes"

I'm a Colorado resident too, you should probably find out what your town and county considers motorized before you decide for the rest of us.

State law allows them on streets, bike lanes and state bike paths. Local municipalities control within their jurisdiction.

In Colorado Springs it is anything with a motor, motorcycles, scooters, motorized skateboards, ebikes, whatever. They don't have a sign banning every specific vehicle, it's pretty obvious if you have a motor or not. Motor = motorized

Boulder allowed ebikes, then banned them and now is testing them again on some bike paths. AFAIK, no one allows emtbs on non motorized singletrack.

You don't know what a moped is? Seriously?


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> But, you continue to use the Levo as the only example of motorized bicycles and we all know that there are many more, including ones that pedaling is not required. The car analogy is a straw man argument.


 Doesn't ,matter, throttle or no throttle. What matters is how the bike is being ridden, as in not too fast or too reckless when among others. I have both PAS AND a throttle, and there is absolutely no perceivable difference, when you see me ride by, same speed etc., that being not any faster then anyone else. Certainly not "too fast."

The next time I see a Corvette driving through town, doing 35 mph..... in a 35 zone, I'm going to get in the drivers face, and tell him/her that they have too much power available to them, their car can go 150 (or more?) and it's a hazard.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Doesn't ,matter, throttle or no throttle. What matters is how the bike is being ridden, as in not too fast or too reckless when among others. I have both PAS AND a throttle, and there is absolutely no perceivable difference, when you see me ride by, same speed etc., that being not any faster then anyone else. Certainly not "too fast."
> 
> The next time I see a Corvette driving through town, doing 35 mph..... in a 35 zone, I'm going to get in the drivers face, and tell him/her that they have too much power available to them, their car can go 150 (or more?) and it's a hazard.


No one claimed the Corvette was anything other than a motor vehicle unlike the grousings of the petulant emotorbike pilots that feel entitled to operate their motorbikes wherever they feel like it. As far as getting in their face, please do so and let us know how that works out for you.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

portnuefpeddler said:


> The next time I see a Corvette driving through town, doing 35 mph..... in a 35 zone, I'm going to get in the drivers face, and tell him/her that they have too much power available to them, their car can go 150 (or more?) and it's a hazard.


Anytime you want to go for a spin in my C7 Z06, just let me know. ;-)

To your point, it can reach 200mph.

But it never does on the street.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> No one claimed the Corvette was anything other than a motor vehicle unlike the grousings of the petulant emotorbike pilots that feel entitled to operate their motorbikes wherever they feel like it. As far as getting in their face, please do so and let us know how that works out for you.


Exactly, It'd be rediculous. Call it what you want, I ride it like a bike. At bike speeds, hell, less then bike speeds compared to all the YouTube DH bids I've seen. My ride is of zero import to to you, and I can't imagine why you'd care enough to lurk here. Relax, your continued access is fine.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

daven007 said:


> Anytime you want to go for a spin in my C7 Z06, just let me know. ;-)
> 
> To your point, it can reach 200mph.
> 
> But it never does on the street.


Down a mine shaft it will. You know how to spot a Corvette driver? You don't have to, they'll make sure to tell you.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Exactly, It'd be rediculous. Call it what you want, I ride it like a bike. At bike speeds, hell, less then bike speeds compared to all the YouTube DH bids I've seen. My ride is of zero import to to you, and I can't imagine why you'd care enough to lurk here. Relax, your continued access is fine.


As long as it has a motor it is not a bicycle.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Harryman said:


> Lol, "in your eyes"
> 
> I'm a Colorado resident too, you should probably find out what your town and county considers motorized before you decide for the rest of us.
> 
> ...


No ****. That's why I said "in my eyes". Not yours. Not his. Not hers. Was that really too hard for you to understand?

I don't live in Boulder, nor do I keep up to we'll with the current laws due to life and having two homes. One in California and one in Colorado.

I'll admit I'm not perfect but not everyone has time in their day to keep up with the fine print. That's why we rely on our local government and tax dollars to notify us to the best of their abilities. But end of the day it's all gray skies.

And yes I know what a moped is. Clearly not a "motorcycle" was that so hard to understand as well? Or are you one of those folk who draws lines and follows them thinking they are right.

So go back to your dreams, think about it and come up with a reply. An educated reply. Not the dumb shat you recently typed.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> No one claimed the Corvette was anything other than a motor vehicle unlike the grousings of the petulant emotorbike pilots that feel entitled to operate their motorbikes wherever they feel like it. As far as getting in their face, please do so and let us know how that works out for you.


He meant tesla. My apology for his lack of knowledge of automobile.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> If you cross the right 2 wires you don't.
> 
> -and also what tiretracks said
> 
> _I'm_ splitting hairs? Good stuff Imabum, keep it coming!


No you're picking hairs. Splitting hairs would be calling out multiple issues. You're hitting on one issue at this point.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Exactly, It'd be rediculous. Call it what you want, I ride it like a bike. At bike speeds, hell, less then bike speeds compared to all the YouTube DH bids I've seen. My ride is of zero import to to you, and I can't imagine why you'd care enough to lurk here. Relax, your continued access is fine.


I'm sure these guys are just jealous of our uphill speeds. Their downhill speeds are far in excess of our capabilities.

Sure e-bikes can do good speeds. But reality is - a corner turn or downhill speed are only safe at a certain speed. An e-bike going at a faster speed isn't a promise it'll be able to handle that task.

These idiots simple don't understand that. They think an ebike can handle corners faster or down hills faster because of a bettery. It's magic. Ooooooooooooooo

I'm going to use JB Weld as an example. If we hit a single track together I guarantee she would complete it much faster than I. Point is at 20 mph max, I'm sure most serious riders would show over an ebike. But let's not give them that credit. Shhhh


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ImaBum said:


> Oh, did that tickle you??
> 
> I personally don't care if it would. But because you quoted it in a negative fashion I do believe there is some truth behind it with your defensive post.
> 
> ...


I can pedal faster than 20 mph, certainly not uphill though. Emotorbike? Never. Rather see my sister working in a whore house.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> I can pedal faster than 20 mph, certainly not uphill though. Emotorbike? Never. Rather see my sister working in a whore house.


Well jokes on you I can't do better than 9mph up a hill on my bike (hill in front of my home where I live in CA). And if at a dead stop on a steep hill (we'd have to be in person to judge the steepness) my ebike cuts out and won't even try. Safety feature or just too much weight. Not sure, I'm 180lbs.

Sad you'd subject your sister to a whole house vs riding an e-bike. A material item where it's existence an function are only supercritical. Really points out the type of person you are. Say no more. It's for the best.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ImaBum said:


> Well jokes on you I can't do better than 9mph up a hill on my bike (hill in front of my home where I live in CA). And if at a dead stop on a steep hill (we'd have to be in person to judge the steepness) my ebike cuts out and won't even try. Safety feature or just too much weight. Not sure, I'm 180lbs.
> 
> Sad you'd subject your sister to a whole house vs riding an e-bike. A material item where it's existence an function are only supercritical. Really points out the type of person you are. Say no more. It's for the best.


Because I'm diametrically opposed to the introduction of motorized vehicles to non-motorized trails you believe that you can tell what type of person I am? I venture that you never heard a euphemism. Another Twilight one moment. It's almost laughable.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Boy this thread has drifted a long way from Edmonton, Alberta. I wonder how long before the moderators close it down?

My understanding is that "moped" is a contraction for "motorcycle with pedals"; technically all e-bikes are mopeds but legally in some jurisdictions they're considered a separate class of vehicles to get around some licensing and insurance requirements. Just like vanilla extract (as in for cooking) is not an alcoholic beverage even though it's 80 proof ethanol. Different industries lobby for regulations to fit their special interests.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> Down a mine shaft it will. You know how to spot a Corvette driver? You don't have to, they'll make sure to tell you.


Actually, no. I went from a Porsche to the Z06 and people who don't know cars well don't understand why. None of them track their cars, though.

So I keep a low profile with it.

My 2017 NSX that's coming in a few weeks?

I tell EVERYBODY about that. See. I just did.

And yes, the C7 Z06 will do 200mph with the Aero 1 package.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> Because I'm diametrically opposed to the introduction of motorized vehicles to non-motorized trails you believe that you can tell what type of person I am? I venture that you never heard a euphemism. Another Twilight one moment. It's almost laughable.


You are a peasant. What you think is a non motorized trail vs motorized trail is only your pathetic voice to someone of higher power to take your mouse squeak into consideration to give you what you want.

Please, don't think you're taller than you really are. Laugh all you want. Squeak squeak.

Your voice an opinion means nearly nothing on an online forum. I've accepted this. You should to. Go local


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

pliebenberg said:


> Boy this thread has drifted a long way from Edmonton, Alberta. I wonder how long before the moderators close it down?
> 
> My understanding is that "moped" is a contraction for "motorcycle with pedals"; technically all e-bikes are mopeds but legally in some jurisdictions they're considered a separate class of vehicles to get around some licensing and insurance requirements. Just like vanilla extract (as in for cooking) is not an alcoholic beverage even though it's 80 proof ethanol. Different industries lobby for regulations to fit their special interests.


It's based on power.

Sport cars. Would you consider a 200hp sedan as a sports car which is more like 600hp corvette or tesla?

It's always based on power.

That's why a moped is is considered what it is. A gas motor. It's more common with a motorcycle than a bicycle.

Is an ebike more common with a moped or bicycle?

That's like saying a tesla car is more like a golf cart than a vehicle. Because it share the same common concept of electricity it's more like a golf cart than a car even tho it acts, looks and functions like a car more than a golf cart??

Seriously guys it's not hard to understand


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ImaBum said:


> You are a peasant. What you think is a non motorized trail vs motorized trail is only your pathetic voice to someone of higher power to take your mouse squeak into consideration to give you what you want.
> 
> Please, don't think you're taller than you really are. Laugh all you want. Squeak squeak.
> 
> Your voice an opinion means nearly nothing on an online forum. I've accepted this. You should to. Go local


That's it? Not very convincing.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

daven007 said:


> Actually, no. I went from a Porsche to the Z06 and people who don't know cars well don't understand why. None of them track their cars, though.
> 
> So I keep a low profile with it.
> 
> ...


II want a ride. Seriously.

Good for you to own those types of toys and luxury. Those vehicles, no matter what, are a blast. Our mechanic at work owns a handful of porches. Loves them. I don't blame him either. He lives up by you in Placerville


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ImaBum said:


> It's based on power.
> 
> Sport cars. Would you consider a 200hp sedan as a sports car which is more like 600hp corvette or tesla?
> 
> ...


Bicycles do not have motors, they rely on human power. It's not hard to understand.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> That's it? Not very convincing.


I understand. Hard for you to reply too. Too many facts for you to fight against. Try again in the Am when you can reply with a post debunking mine.

Best of luck to you.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

ImaBum said:


> It's based on power.
> 
> Sport cars. Would you consider a 200hp sedan as a sports car which is more like 600hp corvette or tesla?
> 
> ...


Actually in California before AB-1096 changed the definitions of things e-bikes were considered mopeds aka motorized bicycles. Didn't matter if they were gas or electric powered.

E-bikes are not bicycles; they're "electric bicycles"---a new class of motorized transport. (In California)


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

tiretracks said:


> But, you continue to use the Levo as the only example of motorized bicycles and we all know that there are many more, including ones that pedaling is not required. The car analogy is a straw man argument.


Do you register an e bike with the department of motor vehicles? No you don't. Then it's not a motor vehicle.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

pliebenberg said:


> E-bikes are not bicycles; they're "electric bicycles"---a new class of motorized transport. (In California)


Venn diagram challenged?

"It's not a dog. It's a big dog. Big dogs are not dogs."

"It's not ice cream. It's chocolate ice cream. Chocolate ice cream is not ice cream."

eMountain bicycles are not bicycles, which is why the law uses the term "bicycle" to describe them.

But in Australia they might start fining people.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

daven007 said:


> eMountain bicycles are not bicycles, which is why the law uses the term "bicycle" to describe them.


California law specifically calls e-bikes "electric bicycles" for a good reason. They are not bicycles. They have motors. They don't have all the same privileges as bicycles. They can be banned from trails otherwise open to bicycles.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

pliebenberg said:


> Actually in California before AB-1096 changed the definitions of things e-bikes were considered mopeds aka motorized bicycles. Didn't matter if they were gas or electric powered.
> 
> E-bikes are not bicycles; they're "electric bicycles"---a new class of motorized transport. (In California)


And I agree with you 100%. It's an electric bicycle. And the new laws reflect that. It'd be foolish to think that it's not an electric bicycle. Even more foolish to compare it to a moped or even dumber, a motorcycle. The day an ebike swaps parts without modification from a moped or motorcycle, I'll drop my end


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

daven007 said:


> There is a point where you just have to ignore them. Eventually they will be moderated out of this forum and they can go back to fighting against each other over other nonsense.
> 
> It isn't healthy to let people who have nothing constructive to add to the conversation poison the well in such a way that drives traffic away from the site.


I realllllllly want to but they really do make it too easy to call these points out.

I mean.. "electric bicycle is not a bicycle". That statement alone is worse than smoking a pack of cigarettes, right??


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

"Electric bicycle is not a bicycle" may be poorly worded, but I think you are missing the actual point. Adding the electric motor creates a significant difference between an e-bike and regular bikes. I think most people here think it is significant enough to consider them a different class of vehicle. Not necessarily worse or better, but different, and therefore needs to be treated that way.

The better conversation might be that e-bikes have similar trail impact to regular bikes, not that they are the same thing. I'd be interested in that conversation, especially if some facts were involved instead of name calling.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> Random fact - I did a 9 mile bike ride today on one of the local bike trails. 7/8 of my trip was no pedal assist. I cruised along at a nice 9mph average through majority of the multi-use paved trail system. Only time I used pedal assist was up some (posted signs) 9% hills where I could use a slight boost near the top of the hill in order to keep going.
> 
> Being my first time on this trail and I checked out the spider legs. A few "entry" points of the trail had signs posted "No motorized vehicles". Others had "No motorized vehicles or motorized bicycles". All these entry points are access points to the main trail. Max these entry points are 1k feet in length and generally come in from off the street and some park parking lots.
> 
> ...


 Motorized bicycle. That's what you ride. Yes?


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

formula4speed said:


> "Electric bicycle is not a bicycle" may be poorly worded, but I think you are missing the actual point.


And I think most of the contributors to this thread are missing the "actual point".

The very first motorcycles were just bicycles with an added motors; it didn't take long for the description "motorized bicycle" to evolve to "motorcycle".

If it makes anybody here happier I'll concede that motorcycles are bicycles in the same spirit that e-bikes are bicycles.

BTW the very first Harleys were so under-powered they had to be pedaled given any hill at all. Modern e-bikes are way more powerful than that.

Good show:


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

formula4speed said:


> "Electric bicycle is not a bicycle" may be poorly worded, but I think you are missing the actual point. Adding the electric motor creates a significant difference between an e-bike and regular bikes. I think most people here think it is significant enough to consider them a different class of vehicle. Not necessarily worse or better, but different, and therefore needs to be treated that way.
> 
> The better conversation might be that e-bikes have similar trail impact to regular bikes, not that they are the same thing. I'd be interested in that conversation, especially if some facts were involved instead of name calling.


It's not poorly worded at all.

Having an e-bike - I use mine as comparison as I sure can't cover all e-bike setups out there. But mine is maxed out at 20mph. It won't pull me up a hill from a dead stop. It has pedal assist which to me feels a LOT like gears.. you know how pedaling is hard, then you shift down and it's easier to pedal? Well that's what pedal assist does - It's like I kicked it into a different gear making it easier to pedal!

Of course I can lazy it out and throttle my happy ass everywhere. But I'm not like that. I can see how that can be debatable tho - but even then the throttle is still limited and won't get you everywhere you want to if the hills are too steep or traction is too loose.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

leeboh said:


> Motorized bicycle. That's what you ride. Yes?


Yes. I do ride a motorized bicycle. Not a motorcycle. Not a golf cart. Not a moped. An Electric bicycle, or it could be labeled as a motorized bicycle. I'd assume that a "motorized bicycle" could use either electric, natural gas, gas, propane, hog farts or any other method to make it "motorized".

That said, I believe the correct sub-category of "motorized bicycle" would be "Electric bicycle". Would you agree?


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

leeboh said:


> Yikes. Maybe slow your roll some here. CA maybe on the cutting edge of e bikes. But what goes in CA does not go for the rest of the US. MA rider here. No motor vehicles allowed on multi use trails here in state forests and parks( most of the available riding areas) Nor on conservation area and town lands. The state park agency( the DCR) defines a bicycle as a NON MOTORIZED vehicle designed to be used on both paved and non paved surfaces. The e bikes have a motor. Not allowed here. Period.


I understand that. No one is debating that. Every state, federal land, city, suburb, town, reservation will always have different laws and definitions along with classifications. It's no different than gun laws. If you don't like the current setup - set out to change it or move. It's really that simple.

The debate here is really about how an electric bike is NOT a motorcycle nor does it act or perform like a motorcycle. Back to the golf cart thing - It's design and function makes it prime for the golf course but of course it's capable of operating safely on a public roadway up to 45mph (in most locations). But because of it's limitations, design and function - it is NOT safe for operation on roadways 45mph+.

An e-bike is simply a sub-category of a bicycle. Just like how there are bikes with single speed vs gears. Or trikes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ImaBum said:


> Yes. I do ride a motorized bicycle. Not a motorcycle. Not a golf cart. Not a moped. An Electric bicycle, or it could be labeled as a motorized bicycle. I'd assume that a "motorized bicycle" could use either electric, natural gas, gas, propane, hog farts or any other method to make it "motorized".
> 
> That said, I believe the correct sub-category of "motorized bicycle" would be "Electric bicycle". Would you agree?


If you really want to delve that deep into semantics electric power generally means motor whereas internal combustion is an engine. So technically an electric bicycle and motorized bicycle are no different.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Except that one makes noise, and produces a toxic exhaust, and the other makes no noise and has no exhaust gases. For those that don't use a renewable energy system to charge their batteries as I do, try and charge at night, past peak grid demands, when the utilities generators ( of any type) are loafing, and severely UNDERUSED as they are sized for peak demands. Like hitching a ride on a bus that's going that way regardless, even with empty seats, as opposed to calling a cab to drive across town just to pick one person up.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> If you really want to delve that deep into semantics electric power generally means motor whereas internal combustion is an engine. So technically an electric bicycle and motorized bicycle are no different.


How are they not different?

If I put a pair of wings on my bike is it a damn airplane now?

If I cover those wings with feathers is it now a bird??

If I put a remote control system on it, is it now an "rc car"?????

It's in the bicycle category. It's an electric bicycle. A sub-category of a bicycle.
A mountain bike is a sub category of a bicycle. 
A road bike is a sub category of a bicycle.

You want keep telling me it's not different? A gas motor is not anything like an electric motor. But they do the same job, in different ways.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mojoronnie said:


> Do you register an e bike with the department of motor vehicles? No you don't. Then it's not a motor vehicle.


Why then does everyone keeps quoting the CA Motor Vehicle Code in regard to them?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ImaBum said:


> But they do the same job


Then why do you consider one different than the other?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

This why I attempted to have a thread where we delineated areas of agreement. There is no reasonable argument for saying an e-bike is the same as a bike IMO. Certain models with and without motors may be classified the same but that doesn't change the facts. Also, IMO the method of propulsion would mandate different classes for each. Ergo an ICE powered bike should be another class.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Exactly, they're a new class of vehicle. And AFAIK, there's no legislation that says they ARE bicycles, just where they should be treated LIKE bicycles.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> I understand that. No one is debating that. Every state, federal land, city, suburb, town, reservation will always have different laws and definitions along with classifications. It's no different than gun laws. If you don't like the current setup - set out to change it or move. It's really that simple.
> 
> The debate here is really about how an electric bike is NOT a motorcycle nor does it act or perform like a motorcycle. Back to the golf cart thing - It's design and function makes it prime for the golf course but of course it's capable of operating safely on a public roadway up to 45mph (in most locations). But because of it's limitations, design and function - it is NOT safe for operation on roadways 45mph+.
> 
> An e-bike is simply a sub-category of a bicycle. Just like how there are bikes with single speed vs gears. Or trikes.


 I think the crux of the issue is the motor. Any motor. Hence the rules and regs about motorized vehicles. The issue is how to define this " other" kind of motorized vehicle? Not really a bike, not really a motorcycle.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Harryman said:


> Exactly, they're a new class of vehicle. And AFAIK, there's no legislation that says they ARE bicycles, just where they should be treated LIKE bicycles.


https://img.velo-centrum.cz/commodityDetailZoom/images/95216-50_LEVOFSR_COMP-6FATTIE_BLK-CHAR.jpg

What percentage of people, when asked, "Is this a bicycle?" would say "yes"?

Out of a hundred people asked "What is this?", how many would say, "It's a bike."


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Bike don't have motors. Just the one on the seat.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

leeboh said:


> Bike don't have motors. Just the one on the seat.


This is true. The definition of a bicycle (in American English) specifies that it's propelled by pushing on pedals.

Anything else, whether it has an agreed upon name or not, is not a bicycle.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

daven007 said:


> https://img.velo-centrum.cz/commodityDetailZoom/images/95216-50_LEVOFSR_COMP-6FATTIE_BLK-CHAR.jpg
> 
> Blog
> 
> ...


Do you mean if you didn't tell them it was motorized? Unless they were familiar with ebikes, all of them.

As with crossdressers, it's what's under the hood that matters.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

If you keep calling people names or quoting those name calling your posts will be deleted.

Be Civil.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

pliebenberg said:


> Boy this thread has drifted a long way from Edmonton, Alberta. I wonder how long before the moderators close it down?


I started editing posts that were name calling or avoiding the language filter by mis-spelling foul language and then decided to just start and the beginning and you are right, this train derailed a long time ago. Closing it down.


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