# Tired of LBS crap



## Ihitatree (Apr 18, 2012)

LBS LBS LBS!!! Yay! Craigslist evil, Internet boo!

You've never sold anything second hand? When I'm ready to upgrade, my bike will go on Craigslist and somebody will give me a few hundred bucks for a sweet ride that gets them started, and then I'll go to my LBS and buy a new one... Or maybe I won't. 

Your LBS is in competition with other local shops... They know their market. Do you exclusively support your local car dealers? Gun shops? Do you help the economy by buying newly built houses?

"well, that's different"

No it isn't. Your neighbor needs to sell their stuff, you need to sell your stuff. People need things at less than retail sometimes. Without selling used stuff, the LBS/car dealer/brake manufacturer would die anyway, because that's where money for new stuff comes from a lot of the time.

The Internet is putting newspapers out of business. You gonna quit going to CNN and get a newspaper subscription? How many of you have a land-line telephone?

I bet the makers of DIY kits and tools are pretty happy about your Internet purchase... Oh wait, they are Chinese (they don't eat or have souls)... and the middleman just takes a cut anyway... A lot like your LBS does... with their products that were made in China.

"but... but... service after the sale!!" Your LBS doesn't want you in there eating up their time, they suck it up as a way to get customer loyalty and you perusing the shelves while you wait. News flash: they aren't thrilled to tighten your spokes for the 4th time this month. They'd just assume sell you a wrench and see you again when you want a new bike. They COUNT on you becoming competent after a few months. 

Are local shops BAD? No... They look for a place where they think they can make money, they pay rent, and hope they do a good enough job to stay open. Same as Wally world, same as the website that advertises their stuff on MTBR (not free), same as the people making money off of this forum. 

Support the sport. Support your health. Support your family and friends. If you can and want to pay the premium for the brick-and-mortar shop, that's a tool for you to accomplish those goals... Just like the Internet, just like the classifieds.


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## Caffeine Powered (Mar 31, 2005)

Did you have a point?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

someone needs a hug.


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## Possum Jones (Aug 27, 2011)

Loose bowel syndrome crap?


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## wyatt79m (Mar 3, 2007)

Wow, calm down....


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

This reminds me that I need to clip my toenails.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

Mental.


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

I think he hit a tree.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

This dude is mad.


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## dirt farmer (Mar 28, 2005)

When I saw "Craigslist evil", I knew he was full of shiite. 

People here recommend buying on CraigsList many, many times a day.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

amen.


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## FujNoob (Dec 20, 2009)

If you would go out and actually ride a bike it may make you feel better. :thumbsup:


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## IRONMAN1518 (Jul 19, 2008)

VERY interesting post, but perhaps it should have been posted in the "Passion" or "General Discussion". under "political Views, maybe? Or spacebook or else where? IDK I don't get out much, and do support your right to feel/express what you wish, but in MTBR Beginner Corner is out of place. Sorry to hear u feel that way about your LBS. 

There are two shops in the town I live in and one shop I DO NOT GO TO (I have that right also) and the other I have shopped since '82, and during all this time I've been treadted verywell. too bad for you that hasn't been your luck. Sorry to hear but no need to post negativity towards LBS, in general in the Beginners Corner. Go elswhere in thei website. I wish you peace in your heart, you sound too upset at things waaaayyy beyond your control my friend. My best wishes...


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

Ihitatree said:


> Gun shops?.


without a class 1 ffl or higher you have no choice but to support your local gun shops. go ahead and try and buy a gun online without one.


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## RollingAround (Sep 26, 2011)

I have a local shop I visit....Last season I needed like two ball bearings as two fell out at the trail when I was greasing my hubs. I was like oh crap where am I going to get two balls for my bearings today? 

I went to the LBS and he GAVE me...GAVE me a handful of bearings in the right size into my hand out of a jar. 

Heck....I bought a chain from him and he transfered my cassette to my new wheel for free... Had me back on the trail riding the same day. LBS are nice to have! Dicks couldn't help me one bit and that is where I bought the damn bike! lol...

Seems you had a bad day at the LBS....brush it off man....go fo ra ride and chill.

It's all good.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

I had a response all typed out but then I realized replying to this is like finding a pile of dog **** on the sidewalk and trying to talk to it.

Anyways, I hope one day you come across a problem that you need fixed asap on your bike yet cannot do it yourself, and there are no LBS's within a 300 mile radius of wherever it is you waste oxygen


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## RollingAround (Sep 26, 2011)

Oh....they let you borrow those odd and wierd tools too! 

Oh and looking at 5,000 dollar Epics and Stumpies in the real and smellling all that new rubber.....priceless.

Biking would be a step more boring without LBS.


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## wschruba (Apr 13, 2012)

I have been to bad LBSs...but I've been to bad coffee joints and bars too. Doesn't mean they're all bad. Patronize whoever you think is deserving of your money.


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## armorlol (Apr 25, 2012)

wschruba said:


> I have been to bad LBSs...but I've been to bad coffee joints and bars too. Doesn't mean they're all bad. Patronize whoever you think is deserving of your money.


Absolutely true, if you don't like a particular bike shop then don't go to it. In this age of online shopping and craigslist you pay local B&M stores for their advice. If you already know how to work on your bike and have tools, there is little reason to go to the LBS. You are paying about 40% markup on accessories and tools at an LBS and many of us can't afford it.

But MTB can be an expensive hobby and lots of people here dish out thousands on bikes and parts every year. If you have that kind of money to spare then yeah you can afford to shop wherever you want and not have to wait on items to ship. As for me, I'm a DIYer auto enthusiast with a good mechanical skillset and tools so I buy online 85% of the time.


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## MOSZ (Oct 28, 2011)

Looks like someone doesn't have a great LBS in their area. Sorry.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Craigslist is the best thing since sliced bread! :thumbsup:


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

I guess I'm rather fortunate in that my LBS is AWESOME, and that I have 5 within 20 minutes to choose from, and 1 or 2 of those are good as well... and then there are the crappy ones. And I didn't include Performance Bike because I refuse to give them my money.

My LBS is super fair on parts and labor (too fair, almost), and with QBP shipments arriving within a day or so they get me pretty much anything I want, for basically what I'd pay online. So it's a no brainer for me to support my local economy.

Now, another LBS I went to before that, they routinely charge WAY over MSRP on components and accessories, and their labor is like $67/hr. They were great on knowledge and customer service though, but it wasn't worth the ridiculous costs.

Craigslist in my area, on the other hand, sucks. All it is is people trying to sell Michelob Light full-suspension bikes for $250, and people asking $1,000 for 15 year old Cannondales Super V's.


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## thebigred67 (Mar 29, 2005)

So far off in so many directions,... nevermind.


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## Top_Cat (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm fine with my LBS...they're a great bunch of guys...but then I only talk to the wrenches.

Now... if I could just figger out a way to get the store manager to stop telling me that a 700c cross tire won't fit on my 29" rims, I might even talk to him on occasion...


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## Bigwheel29 (Feb 9, 2012)

Slozomby said:


> without a class 1 ffl or higher you have no choice but to support your local gun shops. go ahead and try and buy a gun online without one.


I buy almost all my guns online and they come in the mail.


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

Cracks me up. Someone bucks the LBS status qou, Albiet a little aggressively. And you guys jump all over him. Yet we have to endure countless threads on how the LBS should be blindly supported. My favorite ones being the Lbs employees complaining about having to provide customer service " Another friggin know it all"
I happen to be lucky and have great shops in my area. One of them I get employee discount because I help out when I can. Ive bought 3 bikes from them and countless items. Even before the discount. I can tell you, even with that relationshhip Ill still buy things online and craigslist. Matter of fact the mechanics ask me to find good deals on specific things knowing even at cost they cant get a better deal.
I own an automotive shop. When people come to me and tell me they bought tires at tirerack, I dont have a problem with that. I still charge the same mount and balance charge as if they bought them from me. Just wont help with warranty issues. They appreciate it and will continue to spend.
with me on other ocassions.
Bottom line is you do what you have to to save money.


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## vetmotox (Mar 28, 2012)

Warning: thread derailment... why is it all my local gun shops are less than big box stores (cabelas, bps and the like) and on par with cheapest interweb, but lbs is always high? Why have they figured it out when other industries cant? I love my local gun shops!

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## OP4guy (Jul 16, 2011)

I will continue to try to support my LBS when I can but I won't screw myself financially over it. I have told them straight up several times that I can find something for less else where or online.


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

I agree with the OP, but I wouldn't be so antagonistic towards lbs supporters. I think they're great, but for us who are on a budget, lbs just can't compete vs CL or online brand. If you insist on LBS, try to get them to throw as much maintenance and tuneups as you can. Buying a bike at a lbs is like buying computer memory at staples.


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## Sean K (Mar 25, 2012)

Gotta join in on this one. Totally agree with the almost absurd 'Support the LBS' mantra one hears all the time. Why should I support them? What do I benefit from it? Should I buy computer stuff at Best-Buy because they're a failing brick and mortar business and Newegg is destroying them?

Most LBS in the USA that I've visited either overchage, are snobby/weird, or have crap for variety of parts in stock. The internet is killing the LBS for a reason; as for many things its far quicker/cheaper.

My next set of wheels will come from BWW.com.

If anything, there are simply too many bike shops. With the continuing rise/dominance of e-commerce, the proper culling of the LBS herd will continue. Eliminating the crappy and leaving only the best to thrive.


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## BradR (May 2, 2012)

Bigwheel29 said:


> I buy almost all my guns online and they come in the mail.


Between my dad and I we've probably bought 60 in a years span off gunbroker.com
he, himself, has purchased over 100 from that site
all are shipped to an FFL dealer, 
it's federal law

GunBroker.com - Help Center


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

So after your great service from the local shop, assembling those 3 bikes for your GF to test and her finding the right one, then you go to CL and find a used bike with better spec for the same price and are POd? :skep: Don't quite get the issue here and why all of a sudden the local shop is satan, are they're not giving you good service or what? 

Personally I think if a shop needs to continuously go at your wheels (4 times is way too much) to tension them and get them right, then honestly I don't think who they have there knows what they're doing when it comes to wheels, look for another shop or wheel builder.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't think anyone has ever suggested that you blindly support LBS just "because." LBS provides products and services that buying used, online shops, and ebay cannot provide. if your LBS is run by dingbats and is truly over-priced, don't shop there. if you can get a killer deal on parts online, go for it. if you find that the nearby big box stores are staffed by under-qualified workers and sell sub-par products (which is often the case), don't waste your time and money on them. if you don't have all the tools and knowledge to work on your own bike, you will probably spend more money in the long run buying a complete bike from an online shop in the cost of assembly and maintenance at the LBS. I have seen dozens of online bike purchases that frustrate the rider who has to deal with this and many of them end up regretting buying a bike online.

I think that sounds reasonable and not a mindless mantra.


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## Ihitatree (Apr 18, 2012)

LyNx said:


> So after your great service from the local shop, assembling those 3 bikes for your GF to test and her finding the right one, then you go to CL and find a used bike with better spec for the same price and are POd? :skep: Don't quite get the issue here and why all of a sudden the local shop is satan, are they're not giving you good service or what?
> 
> Personally I think if a shop needs to continuously go at your wheels (4 times is way too much) to tension them and get them right, then honestly I don't think who they have there knows what they're doing when it comes to wheels, look for another shop or wheel builder.


People seem a bit confused... I'm not knocking the LBS. I'm knocking the people who treat the LBS as though it were the white African rhino.

I posted this "rant" (fair assessment, I guess) after reading several posts since I joined that keep telling people not to buy on CL or the Internet, etc.

The purpose of this post was not to crap on local shops... It was to point out that people have a reflex reaction to simply tell confused first-time buyers that the LBS is the only valuable/ethical choice.

As to your point,I went to a shop and paid new-bike price because I needed that service, and it was well worth it. Same as is i wanted a specific bike that the shop deals, or another specific sevice But if i had known exactly what to buy, I likely wouldn't have.

Have fun out there.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

The reason most get told to buy from a shop is because most don't know how or what to look for in a used frame and can end up getting hosed buying something that's in bad condition or downright un-safe without knowing it with little to no recourse should something happen and with a local shop at least they're there and the products are new, so less chance of anything like that.


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

LyNx said:


> The reason most get told to buy from a shop is because most don't know how or what to look for in a used frame and can end up getting hosed buying something that's in bad condition or downright un-safe without knowing it with little to no recourse should something happen and with a local shop at least they're there and the products are new, so less chance of anything like that.


This is true why total newbs maybe shouldn't buy used cl bike without dedicated research time or having knowledgeable friend, but does not explain why someone can't get an online bike. There are tons of assembly instructions and video for online bikes. Even if you pay your lbs to assemble and 3-6 month TuneUp, you'll still come out way ahead with online bike.

sent from one of my 4 gold leafed iphone 4s's


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

bob13bob said:


> There are tons of assembly instructions to


you over estimate the average person's ability to follow instructions.



> Even if you pay your lbs to assemble and 3-6 month TuneUp, you'll still come out way ahead with online bike.


 or so $200 labor for assembly and tuneup. you didnt save a whole lot on a cheap bike.


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## David_315 (Apr 28, 2008)

wow


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## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2012)

trodaq said:


> I own an automotive shop. When people come to me and tell me they bought tires at tirerack, I dont have a problem with that. I still charge the same mount and balance charge as if they bought them from me. Just wont help with warranty issues. They appreciate it and will continue to spend.
> with me on other ocassions.
> Bottom line is you do what you have to to save money.


How would you feel if you gave a customer a quote for repairs (parts and labor) and he later came back with the parts he bought online to save $20, you installed them stating verbally and in writing that there's no warranty on your work due to the customer providing his own parts, the parts fail the next day, and the customer decides to take you to court to cover the cost of having another mechanic replace the defective part because you told him you wouldn't do it for free, as it wasn't something you sold him?

My father owns a garage and this happened to him. It got thrown out almost immediately, but he had to spend the day in small claims court waiting for his turn, losing a days work over absolute nonsense. He now charges time and a half for installing parts he doesn't sell.

Back to the original topic...

I'll take care of people who take care of me. If an LBS (or any other brick and mortar place) has what I want at a price that I think is reasonable, is showing/trying to sell me what I want/need and not what he wants/needs to sell, and I'm confidant that he'll take care of any issues after the sale, I'll give him my business. I have no problems spending a few more dollars for this. I shouldn't have to spend a few bucks more to get this, but this is what the world's coming to, I guess. Key words being a few bucks more. If a guy is selling something for more than MSRP when everyone else is selling for a bit less than MSRP, I won't give him the chance.

The issues brought up about LBSs aren't limited to them. It's the same thing in probably every niche market. I'm into music and stereos. It's getting harder and harder to find a good brick and mortar stereo shop who doesn't pull a bunch of crap. I've been to places where I walked by 4 guys sitting around who didn't say a word to me for the entire 20 minutes or so that I was in the shop. I guess showing me a $1k pair of speakers is a waste of time when they've got $25k speakers on the floor, yet no other customers around.

Everything's got its share of good guys and bad guys. It's on you to figure out who deserves your money. If that's the guy around the corner or the guy filling online orders is your business. If the guy around the corner gives me an honest product and service for an honest price, I'll give him my business. If not, I'll click the checkout button on someone's webpage.


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## jake01 (Sep 29, 2005)

step away from the bong.


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## big terry (Apr 22, 2012)

i now have 2 great LBS that i am torn between using, and they arent even local- both are 25 miles away, in the same town. but on separate occasions i have gone to either store (one is closed on wednesdays) and they have both dropped what they were doing to assist me, an individual who bought a bike from bikesdirect.com and not them, so i could get out on the trail and ride ASAP.

no, i aint made of money. in fact i live in borderline poverty (which is why i bought on bikesdirect). however, i value excellent customer service, and these folks have both earned MY hard-earned cash, what little there is of it, because they took the time to help a noob get on the trail and do it safely and without worry of breaking something i myself wasnt smart enough to do myself.

not to say i will buy everything i need from them. far from it- some of that sh!t is just so overpriced at retail it would be dumb to spend the money. ill shop around for deals, sure. but repair work, tune-ups, regular maintenance i dont yet feel confident enough to tackle myself- i wont bat an eye to take my bike to them. 20 bucks for a tune-up is money well spent in my book.


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## Ihitatree (Apr 18, 2012)

JR...

I never said anything about "good or bad" shops.

The shops around here are excellent, as a matter of fact. 

My point is, as stated, the constant downing on purchasing elsewhere.


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## scotteramey (Feb 10, 2012)

My LBS can do things I can't or don't have the time to do. Even though I sometimes pay more than if I bought on the internet I know that's a small price I pay to help make sure they're there when I need them - you don't get something vor nothing. It took awhile shopping around to find a shop I was happy with but once I did I've stuck with them and they've always been there with reliable customer service. End of story!


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

JR 137 said:


> How would you feel if you gave a customer a quote for repairs (parts and labor) and he later came back with the parts he bought online to save $20, you installed them stating verbally and in writing that there's no warranty on your work due to the customer providing his own parts, the parts fail the next day, and the customer decides to take you to court to cover the cost of having another mechanic replace the defective part because you told him you wouldn't do it for free, as it wasn't something you sold him?
> 
> My father owns a garage and this happened to him. It got thrown out almost immediately, but he had to spend the day in small claims court waiting for his turn, losing a days work over absolute nonsense. He now charges time and a half for installing parts he doesn't sell.
> 
> ...


 Sorry this happened to your dad. I note on the invoice parts were supplied by cutomer and warranty is the responsibility of the customer. Does this keep me from going to court? Maybe.
I wasnt talking about a "Few more bucks" . I'm saying when I get get a part for 1/2 what I pay at a local shop, Im going to buy it online. I replied to this thread only because theres a large number here who jump on people for not supporting brick and mortar businesses. I understand the concept, but its not as cut and dry as they seem to make it seem.


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## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2012)

trodaq said:


> Sorry this happened to your dad. I note on the invoice parts were supplied by cutomer and warranty is the responsibility of the customer. Does this keep me from going to court? Maybe.
> I wasnt talking about a "Few more bucks" . I'm saying when I get get a part for 1/2 what I pay at a local shop, Im going to buy it online. I replied to this thread only because theres a large number here who jump on people for not supporting brick and mortar businesses. I understand the concept, but its not as cut and dry as they seem to make it seem.


Having to go to court or not probably depends mostly on the locale. That case took all of 3 questions by the judge... 'Did the defendant state there was no warranty due to you bringing in your own parts before he did the work?' 'Did you not see it written on the work order and receipt you signed?' 'What part of any of that did you not understand?'

Took missing almost a full day's work just to hear that. At the end of the day, anyone can sue you for anything, if they win or not is another matter. He's been to court do many times in the 30 years he's owned his shop. I'm not saying this because he's my father, but he's one of the good guys. He's never done dishonest work or ripped anyone off. No matter how good you are, not every customer is a good customer.

With all that said, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page regarding LBSs and any other mom and pop business. Seek out the good ones and stay away from the bad ones. I think you interpreted the part of my post after my father's court issue as I was directing that part to you specifically. Sorry about that. I was directing that towards the thread in general, not anyone in particular.


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## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2012)

Ihitatree said:


> JR...
> 
> I never said anything about "good or bad" shops.
> 
> ...


I get where you're coming from. Too many people think their way is the right way, I guess. The way I look at it, I spend my money wherever and however I choose to, because I earned my money. I'm pretty sure you earned yours, and I treat you and everyone else the way I want to be treated. Makes zero difference in my life where anyone one shops. Live and let live.


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## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2012)

Sorry if my last post sounds like you have a problem with how anyone else spends their money. That wasn't my intent at all.


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## WarBoom (Dec 13, 2011)

You need a better outlook, maybe you are the problem and not your LBS. But, if its your LBS then Im sure there is another one that will gladly take your money with a smile


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## Ihitatree (Apr 18, 2012)

WarBoom said:


> You need a better outlook, maybe you are the problem and not your LBS. But, if its your LBS then Im sure there is another one that will gladly take your money with a smile


The owner of the shop I bought my bike from knows my first name, and I know his. He had stayed open every time I called and asked if I could bring in something 15 min before closing. When he services something, he shows me what he's doing, and explains why.

And, he wasn't pissed when I went elsewhere for another bike, because he didn't deal the bike I was looking for.

I won't buy anything until I look at his shop first, and if I pay for new, he'll have to lose the sale rather than make it.

Problem... Isn't... With... My... LBS... It's with people who treat alternatives like a disease and discourage good deals when new riders ask.


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## 101Surge (Apr 18, 2012)

Im just getting into MTB. My LBS has treated my like gold. I haven't even bought anything from them yet. Obviously they are trying to gain a sale from me, but they sure are earning that sale. They are always helpful and give me loads of help and information. It's that kind of support I want when I dive into this hobby as a beginner. If I buy off of craigslist, how much help can I expect from the guy I bought it from?


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## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2012)

I'm a newb with bike shops. I've been in several of them over the last 3-4 weeks, looking around, asking questions, etc. For the most part, they were all pretty nice to me and no one talked down to me. A radical departure from the stereo shops I've been in. Some of you aren't going to like what I'm about to say...

The one who treated me the nicest by far was my local EMS. Every place I went into, I told them I was looking around and gave them a price range. Weather has been miserable for the last few weeks, and I didn't want to ride anything just yet, just get a sense of what's out there and the shops' attitudes.

The guy at EMS put me on a Kona Lana'i in the store. Explained the fitting process, went through every part of the bike (components), explained why and how better ones are better, and told me who in the area has which brands. Didn't try to sell me anything at all. Said I should ride as many bikes as possible and buy the most comfortable frame, as for the most part the components will be equal at equal price ranges. He said hopefully what he's got will be most comfortable, but what es got isn't the most comfortable for every single person.

All the LBSs were cordial, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy from any of them based on how I've been treated so far. None of them took as much time as the guy in EMS did, while knowing I wasn't going to ride and possibly buy that day. Also, the guy in EMS wasn't some over zealous guy or anything like that, just a guy doing his job the way I'd want him to do it if I were paying him.

That Kona sure was comfortable. Now just gotta get a few days of nice weather to be able to get on a few bikes. My EMS also has an easy trail behind it for test rides. Coincidence, but it sure helps.


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## nikojan (Jun 18, 2011)

RollingAround said:


> I have a local shop I visit....Last season I needed like two ball bearings as two fell out at the trail when I was greasing my hubs. I was like oh crap where am I going to get two balls for my bearings today?
> 
> I went to the LBS and he GAVE me...GAVE me a handful of bearings in the right size into my hand out of a jar.
> 
> ...


...who greases their hubs on the trail? :madman:

EDIT: I really dont think he was just trolling. The LBS's around me are all filled with ******s that try to squeeze every penny out of you. They've adopted the business model of a sketchy mechanic. When I was looking into getting a Giant XTC the first LBS I went to didn't carry giant's and told me everything except that Giants were forged in the bowls of hell from enfant tears to get me to buy a trek (which they did carry). If you can find the same product online, go for it. You dont have any obligations to them.


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## twistie (May 29, 2012)

I have two LBS that I support, and I buy sell and trade on Craigslist all the time.


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## scotteramey (Feb 10, 2012)

twistie said:


> I have two LBS that I support, and I buy sell and trade on Craigslist all the time.


I choose my LBS like a drunk chooses his bars - can they serve my addiction with the good stuff at a price I can afford.


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## GIJosh84 (Jun 20, 2011)

I support my LBS for a variety of reasons. For one, as a former sale associate I can understand how frustrating it can be to have someone come in and look, ask for your expert opinions, and then go home and buy something online, and maybe a few weeks later ask you to fix it. 2, I dont want to have to ship something to return it. 3, I feel that my LBS has a better chance of ordering the most up to date and current products. I am weary of internet retailers who most likely buy products wholesale, and it may take many years for them to move all their stock. but in the mean time, that part may have been revised many times but Mr.com is still selling from the lot he bought 3-4 years ago. 4 my LBS helps maintain our local trails and having a local business or businesses depend on the land would make the city think twice about using our parks for a housing development or business zoning.


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## fireball_jones (Mar 29, 2009)

JR 137 said:


> The one who treated me the nicest by far was my local EMS.


Last bike I got was from an EMS, and I sent someone else there to get one. They don't need to sell bikes to stay in business, they have great end of year sales, and if they don't have your size, they're not hesitant to get it in for you to try, because if it doesn't work out they can just leave it on the shelf or send it to another store.

There are some great LBSs out there, and there are some "oh hey, I have this bike, and this is the bike you really want" LBSs out there.


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## manmythlegend (May 21, 2012)

Ive tried two LBS. Its highly dependent on whos working. Some guys are very cordial and informative others are just pushing items.
One visit I went in looking for stem piece , got it right away , and had a number of questions answered , he helped two people that came in with quick and honest answers. All 3 of us made purchases.
Next visit a different worker was there and I asked a similar question about tires and all he did was try to sell me some $100 a piece MTB slicks.
Guy came in as I was browsing around for a seat post clamp same person takes half a glance at his bike and says well it also looks like your chain is stretched you should get a new one , but youll need a cassette with that...guy says hes only been riding it a month asks how much SP says about 150$ total guy passes on it while shaking his head says he'll come back another time.

Some people/places just have an air of grime to them. Others are a joy 'YMMV' and everyone should be aware of it. LBS should always be checked out even if you dont want to purchase. How often do you get to walk into a store dedicated to your hobby ?


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

He's mad as hell and he's not gonna take it any more.


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## Corbinworks (Aug 15, 2011)

Somethings are better new...My LBS gave me free turn ups for LIFE & tons of knowledge, I was not sure what I wanted b4 I picked my bike, But with there help, Showing me different things to look for and letting me test ride a ton of bikes...I feel it was well worth it...I used to work @ one of the best hobbie shop as a kid, the owner know everything there was to know...you should have seen all the people who walked in that had gotten mail order RC cars and had no clue how to build or repair them..My boss would turn them away...thats a prime reason to buy Local...I Love C/L as much as the next guy..but something I feel are better new...


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

i had a couple of bad experiences with bike shops.
...and a few good ones.
Just know there's more than one LBS if you find a bad one.
There's some good ones too.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

No reason to get all worked up.

From what I can tell, the OP is just sick of the "holier than you" attitude, that some members sports.

I see the issue quite the same way as the people whom thinks they just saved the world, cause they bought an "organic" apple.

It gets tiring to listen to in the long run, hence you see outbursts like the one from the OP.


Magura


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Oh Man!
The hard part is when you're just getting all happy about the sport,and then...the VERY FIRST TIME you walk into a bike shop, you get treated like a pile of dog s**t.
Yeah, that'll do it.
...and once you get that bitter taste in your system, it's hard as heck to get it out.

...Amen brother.


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

manmythlegend said:


> Ive tried two LBS. Its highly dependent on whos working. Some guys are very cordial and informative others are just pushing items.
> One visit I went in looking for stem piece , got it right away , and had a number of questions answered , he helped two people that came in with quick and honest answers. All 3 of us made purchases.
> Next visit a different worker was there and I asked a similar question about tires and all he did was try to sell me some $100 a piece MTB slicks.


Always stick with the talent. If "Steve" does a wonderful job, gives you great, honest answers and leaves you feeling all warm inside, ask for "Steve" every time you go to the shop. Nothing wrong with saying "Sorry, nothing personal, but Steve did a great job for me the last time, so I'd like to wait for him to be ready and do my business with him again" when someone else approaches you in the shop.

My brother has a special car that is pretty sensitive to set up properly. He tried different mechanics, but none got it just right. Then he heard of this particular guy, Pete, at a particular shop that was supposed to know everything worth knowing about the car and apparently being a bit of a wizard, so my brother gave it a try and got the car fixed and dialed in absolutely spot on. So my brother used Pete for his car for years, getting top notch work done every time.

One day he called to book a service and found out Pete no longer worked there. My brother asked into it, and it turned out that Pete had met this woman who lived quite a bit away and Pete had decided to find work in that area instead. My brother digged some more and found the address of the new place Pete was working.

He then called the new place, presented himself and his car and said "Rumor has it you've recently hired a new guy named Pete. I want him to do the work on my car." and got the reply "Funny you should say so, I've had quite a few new customers saying the same thing, I've never had an employee that brought his own customer base before."

Bottom line, if someone does alright by you, let him/her know you appreciated it, let your friends know, let his boss know and do your business with him every time. You get proper service and the guy gets a great bargaining chip next time it's time for a raise.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Sandrenseren said:


> Always stick with the talent. If "Steve" does a wonderful job, gives you great, honest answers and leaves you feeling all warm inside, ask for "Steve" every time you go to the shop. Nothing wrong with saying "Sorry, nothing personal, but Steve did a great job for me the last time, so I'd like to wait for him to be ready and do my business with him again" when someone else approaches you in the shop.
> 
> My brother has a special car that is pretty sensitive to set up properly. He tried different mechanics, but none got it just right. Then he heard of this particular guy, Pete, at a particular shop that was supposed to know everything worth knowing about the car and apparently being a bit of a wizard, so my brother gave it a try and got the car fixed and dialed in absolutely spot on. So my brother used Pete for his car for years, getting top notch work done every time.
> 
> ...


'nuff said.
:thumbsup:


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## droanx (Jun 10, 2012)

There's a time and place for everything. I have a LBS that sponsors our local club so I tend to go there and see what they have first. I even had them order me a bike only to find a much better deal on CL in the next 2 hours. Called up the LBS and they had no problem canceling the order and were happy that I got a good deal. 

I just finished building my first bike. I ordered everything via ebay and other bike websites. I go to build it and realize that I forgot cable housing. Hop in the car and go to my LBS and told them what happened and got no grief for building my own and was given tons of housing for cheap. Then on my maiden voyage I wrecked bad and bent my front rim. Took it to the local LBS around their closing time and the mechanic had already heard of my crash from a local and asked for the rim and fixed it up right there. 

LBS have a place, ordering online has a place, CL/Ebay has a place.


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## airforceteacher (May 31, 2012)

Seems like I see this argument in every hobby I've ever tried, especially niche hobbies. People line up in both camps and fire away. I usually can't stand local stores for anything specialized at all because of the attitude "where else ya gonna go?". I think I've found a new place I like, and my wife loves it - they told her NOT to buy the bike the first day she looked at it and to come back in better clothes to try it. They knew when she was coming back and either had it ready for her or dropped everything to get it ready when she walked in. We left with it in the back of the car that day. They gave me free sizing on the bike I bought online and charged a minimal amount to adjust everything. I made sure I bought my helmet there and I'm probably going back for a light this week after they replace my stem.

BUT I bought last years model online and saved $350. Even if I have to send it backhand get a smaller one shipped out, I'm still saving $200.


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

droanx said:


> LBS have a place, ordering online has a place, CL/Ebay has a place.


Agreed, and I think we tend to make a bigger deal out of "support your local LBS" than needed.

I recently spend a month as an intern at one of my LBS. Supercool job btw.. The shop is one of those family businesses that has been there for 40 years, the guy I worked for was the grandson of the original owner. The shop was very busy, helped by the spring weather being really nice and a lot of people getting their bikes out.

It gave me a closer look at their customer base.

A lot of people were "mr. and mrs. ordinary" who came to get a flat tire fixed, get regular service down, get "those squeeky brakes" fixed and so on. They didn't care what brand or parts we used, they just wanted their bikes fixed at a reasonable cost. When taking the order, the mechanics would give the bike a quick check as when needed ask stuff like "We can put on new brake pads easily, but your rear brake cable looks really rusty and has started to break here, you want us to change that while we're at it?". It cut down on unforeseen problems and the customers liked the extra attention to details.

Some people brought in "online bikes" and "online parts" and asked us to fit it. No problem in that, we just billed them for the time. Sometimes the parts didn't fit and we would call them and ask if they wanted to buy the proper part from us and have it fixed right away or if we should spend time putting the old part back on and have them come back with a new part another day? All done "on the clock".

Finally a lot of people just stopped by to chat a bit, riding buddies of some of the mechanics, old friends, people like that. Just stopping by to chit chat, give feedback on that new gear system they bought 2 weeks ago, borrow the air hose for the tires, sometimes bringing cake! Pretty frequently they would go "oooh, is those the new gloves from xxxx? nice!" and end up impulse buying them. Other times they would spot some cool rims on a customer bike we were tinkering with, ask for prices and come back a few days later to order them.

It honestly didn't seem that online bike shopping was a big issue for them. Us internet forum rats might get all our knowledge and parts online, but there is still plenty of people that like the advise and attention of the LBS if the LBS has a reputation for treating people right.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

I wouldn't be surprised if over half the people *****ing about LBS overcharging never give the LBS a shot to match the price.

One example. Huck and Roll has the old Tallboy on sale right now. So I called my LBS and told him. Was flat out honest and told him I want to support him, but can't just hand him an extra $1100 to do it.

He came back with a very fair price on a new version, so I ordered, all over the phone.


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## elcaro1101 (Sep 1, 2011)

Most of these posts are very circumstantial. There are great LBS' and there are bad ones. If your lucky enough to have a good one near you, then support them. If not, then do what you need to get yourself out there riding.

The arguments that don't make sense to me are the ones that insist on LBS support regardless. My support is earned. If you have enough money to help them stay afloat and you pay 20% more for your stuff, and your OK with this, more power to you. Its this mindset being imposed on other people that needs to get chucked out the window.

I ride a ti Motobecane. No way would I drop the money I spent building my frame/fork from bikesdirect at the local shops where I live. I feel like a nuisance every time I go in, this is even well previous to my more expensive bike purchase. I wanted to get back into the sport and was treated like I was a waste of their time. I ended up purchasing a used FSR off CList, then built my Moto after I decided I was hooked.

Also..

A few months ago I tacod my front wheel in a crash. I skimped on my wheelset while building so I decided to find a good place to have a wheel built. I found a great builder in the town over and went to see them. I was treated like a customer, like I was valuable, and purchased a wheel build without hesitation. My business was earned and I will be back...big ups to Dave @ Redstone Cyclery.

Maby it is the experience of a good LBS that people are trying to relay to others, but realize that not everybody has the luxury of a shop that knows what they are doing and do it well, for everybody that enters the door.


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## Hundun (Jun 2, 2010)

I get my bikes from JensonUSA and Bikes Direct. They give me good value for my money and treat me as a valued customer. I don't like dealing with LBSs; it's like a gamble whether they are going to be courteous, rude, indifferent, or snobby.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Ihitatree said:


> Problem... Isn't... With... My... LBS... It's with people who treat alternatives like a disease and discourage good deals when new riders ask.


I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. every so often, some dingbat has this notion that the only way to ever purchase anything bike related is from a LBS. but i don't think this obsession is as widespread as you think it is. a few vocal forum warriors make a lot of noise about supporting the LBS, but that's just a few obnoxious people and you should not get so upset about it. very few people are that zealous about it, so don't get your panties in a bunch.

most reasonable people will check with their LBS first to find out what they have. the problem is with people who feel they are entitled to a "deal" every time they purchase something. so they go to an online retailer first and burn the LBS over a few bucks every time. as a bike shop mechanic, I meet a lot of these people and they are rather annoying. they frequently buy the wrong part and then get mad at me for not being able to, for example, make a top swing derailleur work on their Ebay special frame when they need a bottom swing. so then the bike sits in the shop for four weeks while they figure that out instead of spending an extra $10 and buying the part from us. even if they save a few bucks on the bike or parts, they pay more in the long run on labor, adjustments, and shipping.

I once met a guy who had mail-ordered a women's mtb for his fiance from a big box store and tried to assemble it himself. his fiance really wanted a bike but she insisted on spending an absolute maximum of $150 on the bike. the bike needed a proper assembly and tune-up, which we were going to charge him $75 to do, and it needed a new front derailleur because the one that came with it was damaged in shipping. He had paid $150 for the bike, plus $25 or so for shipping. now this "deal" of a bike for $150 was well over $250. i really wanted to tell the guy that this was a glimpse into the nonsense he would have to deal with if he married this crazy girl, but it was not my place to give relationship advice.

in short, if your mentality is to nickle and dime your way through your cycling hobby, then "support your LBS" is probably worthwhile advice.


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## Hundun (Jun 2, 2010)

mack_turtle said:


> .... as a bike shop mechanic, I meet a lot of these people and they are rather annoying. they frequently buy the wrong part and then get mad at me for not being able to, for example, make a top swing derailleur work on their Ebay special frame when they need a bottom swing. so then the bike sits in the shop for four weeks while they figure that out instead of spending an extra $10 and buying the part from us. even if they save a few bucks on the bike or parts, they pay more in the long run on labor, adjustments, and shipping.


It's reasonable and understandable that you would be annoyed by such people. I would be mortified having to expect an LBS to install a part I ordered on the internet. People need to learn the installs and adjustments if they are going to do internet purchases.

I also don't test ride LBS bikes to determine what I should buy online. So I'm willing to risk return shipping if I don't like the fit or the handling. These are trade-offs I'm willing to make to get substantial savings.

On the flip side, I resent being gouged for a 5 minute install. For example I asked a shop how much they would charge in labor to swap out a spring in my Tora since I already had the spring. The guy said between $40 and $80, depending on the level of breakdown involved to get to it. I knew he was BSing me as he would already know what was involved in getting to the spring. I came home and found a Youtube vid on how to do it and did it myself in under 10 minutes. This is one of many examples of LBSs lying to me over the years.



mack_turtle said:


> in short, if your mentality is to nickle and dime your way through your cycling hobby, then "support your LBS" is probably worthwhile advice.


I disagree. If you're going to _nickle and dime your way through the hobby_, learn to be your own mechanic.


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## spn4125 (Mar 25, 2008)

Definitely a case by case basis. Having just purchased a bike I went to 5 different shops at least once. My experiences were mixed, most were helpful but weren't willing to go the extra mile for the sale. My last stop the salesman spent time fitting me and swapping stems, adjusting seat height to get a better fit, gave honest opinions and wasn't pushy at all. He knew I was a beginner and was trying to give me as much help as he could right down to what is cool and what isn't. You could tell how passionate he was about bikes and riding and probably would have talked to me all day if he could. He earned my money and return business and I will recommend that shop to anyone, I can't say that about the other shops that I visited. The only unfortunate thing is that shop is 45 min away so they will not get my business for the little things.


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## Mr.Quint (Mar 22, 2012)

TwoTone said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if over half the people *****ing about LBS overcharging never give the LBS a shot to match the price.
> 
> One example. Huck and Roll has the old Tallboy on sale right now. So I called my LBS and told him. Was flat out honest and told him I want to support him, but can't just hand him an extra $1100 to do it.
> 
> He came back with a very fair price on a new version, so I ordered, all over the phone.


I did this with a local shop, regarding another LBS, and they said no, outright.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jun 6, 2012)

The car shop I go to lets me bring my own parts? But thats probably because most are performance parts or stuff they cant get but on one occasion he told me that the shocks I wanted they could get but would have to take there cut and that if I brought them myself I could save money and they would be happy to install them (knowing there quality parts). There also fair on labor prices to thats where I usually go.

Where I got my Bike on the other hand I'm a little confused. I had help getting my bike but there always busy and nobody knows anything but the manager. I argued with one guy that 29er rims were 700c rims.... he was trying to tell me they were bigger and that 700c's are like 28" I'm like yeah the tires are bigger but the rims are the same but he didn't get it. I don't get how these people work at bike shops?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

it's very difficult to find people who care enough to be willing to be paid a relatively small salary to work at a bike shop. at some shops, it's basically minimum wage with no benefits. the shop where I work actually pays very well, health insurance and all, and it's and awesome place to work with good people. however, we have had a "now hiring" sign up for a while and it's extremely difficult to find qualified people.


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

Hundun said:


> For example I asked a shop how much they would charge in labor to swap out a spring in my Tora since I already had the spring. The guy said between $40 and $80, depending on the level of breakdown involved to get to it. I knew he was BSing me as he would already know what was involved in getting to the spring. I came home and found a Youtube vid on how to do it and did it myself in under 10 minutes. This is one of many examples of LBSs lying to me over the years.


How is that lying?

Let's say it's a fork the lbs guy isn't familiar with. There are a lot of brands and models out there, so he might not be an expert on your fork. So the guy thinks: "Hmm, I may have to spend half an hour googling for an exploded view, looking on youtube for instructions or being on the phone with the supplier. I also might just have bad luck and one of the screws are rusted shut and needs to be drilled out and replaced and the customer will argue that's it's my fault and my problem. Finally he might just have gotten the wrong part so I can't finish the job and then he won't pay me for my time. Somewhere between $40 and $80 sounds about right in case **** goes wrong."


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## sternalot (Jun 15, 2012)

Both sides of this argument are extremely valid. With that said, I am leaning towards the OP's point of view. 

The problem is that on average it seems that LBSs don't provide the value-add necessary to support a 50-60% mark-up on a product. Let me support that by saying, I am a rider looking to get back into the game. I have visited a couple of LBSs in my area. While the sales force is always eager to help, the issue comes in that they can't always answer my questions as thoroughly as I would like. If I am looking at two bikes, I want to know what are the differences and why are the differences more preferable? None of my visits or questions have truly resulted in well articulated or even thorough responses. "Because its a higher end model" or "because its components are nicer" are not sufficient answers.In fact, they are lazy answers, which make me even more prone to buying elsewhere.

With that said, my first bike purchase will likely be online, where most of my questions have been answered for me by the fine topics on this and other message boards. I will likely take that bike I buy to the LBS to have it thoroughly looked over and assembled. If they act like pricks because my bike was mail-order, well they can kiss my future business goodbye (repairs, random components, or other impulse buys).


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## velveteer (Feb 28, 2012)

I have never bought a bike from my lbs, but I have done all my service (what I can't do myself) there. I had a fork get stuck in lockout so I took it in, The manager sat down and threw out options. Ultimately I decided to get a new fork and paid what I would pay on the internet ordering it straight. Which means he made very little money on that, versus the large sum of money he would have gotten for them to rebuild it. 

On the contrary, I just ordered a bike from nashbar. As for the people who advocate only buying at your LBS, I say screw them. If you can get a better deal online then go for it. If its a used bike and you're confident that the condition is favorable to the amount you are spending, then go for it. If you want to go buy a brand new bike and want to spend more at your LBS go for it. But don't jump down people's throats because they decided to take the better deal and not give their money away "just for the cause".


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

sternalot said:


> The problem is that on average it seems that LBSs don't provide the value-add necessary to support a 50-60% mark-up on a product. Let me support that by saying, I am a rider looking to get back into the game. I have visited a couple of LBSs in my area. While the sales force is always eager to help, the issue comes in that they can't always answer my questions as thoroughly as I would like. If I am looking at two bikes, I want to know what are the differences and why are the differences more preferable? None of my visits or questions have truly resulted in well articulated or even thorough responses. "Because its a higher end model" or "because its components are nicer" are not sufficient answers.In fact, they are lazy answers, which make me even more prone to buying elsewhere.


Lazy you say? Okay, try answering this question, you can take your time and google it if you like. "I'm looking for a rear derailleur, what is the difference between the Deore, Deore XT and the SLX and which is better for me?"

Seriously, just looking at the tech docs for Shimano Deore XT alone there are 21 different options to pick from for rear derailleurs alone. Add another 18 options for the Deore line and 6 for the SLX line. That's 45 different options just for rear derailleurs alone in those three series. And the have the LX series, the Alivio, Altus, Acera and a couple of other series too. And just as you figure out the differences, they modify the series for next year.

Just trying to be an expert on Shimano rear derailleurs alone is a mammoth task. Then you can add shift grips, brakes, front shifters, chains, cassettes to the mix, not to mention parts from SRAM, Suntour, Campagnolo and a bunch of other brands.

My LBS told me that one year he counted how many different front fork options were available just in those 5 brands he sold and came to 104. That was just going through one years catalog from 5 different brands. Year after that half those forks were replaced by other models.

If you focus on Giant bikes alone, they offer 28 different off-road bikes this year. Here is a list of the different front forks used on those 28 bikes:

- Fox FLOAT Terralogic w/ 15QR Thru-Axle, OverDrive 2 Steerer, 100mm Travel w/ Kashima Coat
- Fox F100 RL w/ 15QR Thru-Axle and OverDrive Steerer, 100mm Travel 
- SR Suntour, 2.0" Travel
- Rock Shox SID RCT3 w/ 15mm Thru-Axle, OverDrive 2 Steerer, 100mm Travel
- Rock Shox Reba RL w/15mm Thru-Axle, OverDrive Steerer, 100mm Travel
- RockShox Reba RL w/ Poplock Remote, 15mm Thru-Axle, OverDrive 2 Steerer, 100mm Travel
- Fox 32 F125RL w/ 15QR Thru-Axle and OverDrive Steerer, 120mm Travel
- Fox FLOAT RL Evolution w/ Remote Lockout, 15QR Thru-Axle, OverDrive 2 Steerer, 100mm Travel
- RockShox XC28 w/ TurnKey Lockout, 100mm Travel
- SR Suntour XCM V3, 100mm Travel, Women's Tuned Spring Rate
- Fox F29 FIT RLC w/ 15QR Thru-Axle and OverDrive Steerer, 100mm Travel
- SR Suntour XCT V4 80mm Travel, Women's Tuned Spring Rate 
- RockShox Reba 29 RL w/ 15mm Thru-Axle, OverDrive Steerer, 100mm Travel
- Fox Talas RLC FIT Factory w/ 15QR Thru-Axle and OverDrive 2 Steerer, 120-140mm Travel w/ Kashima Coat
- Fox FLOAT 120 RL Evolution w/ 15QR Thru-Axle and OverDrive 2 Steerer, 120mm Travel
- Marzocchi 55-R w/ 20mm Thru-Axle and OverDrive 2 Steerer, 160mm Travel
- RockShox Totem RC2 DH Solo Air w/ 20mm Thru-Axle and OverDrive 2 Steerer, 180mm Travel
- RockShox BoXXer R2C2, 203mm Travel
- SR Suntour XCM V3 w/ Lockout, 100mm Travel
- RockShox XC28 w/ Lockout, 100mm Travel

That's 20 different versions of front forks and we're only talking 2012 model Giant's. I bet that if you found a 2011 Giant catalog 8 of those 20 forks would be something different and I'll bet only about half of those current 20 forks will make it into the 2013 line up.

I could challenge you to to explain the differences between those 20 forks, but I'll keep it simple and just stick with my question about those three derailleurs mentioned earlier.. :thumbsup:

Some LBS's might be lazy, but you can't really fault them for not having encyclopedic knowledge of 104 different front forks, 200 different rear derailleurs, 78 different brake grips and a shitload of other parts.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jun 6, 2012)

Sandrenseren said:


> Lazy you say? Okay, try answering this question, you can take your time and google it if you like. "I'm looking for a rear derailleur, what is the difference between the Deore, Deore XT and the SLX and which is better for me?"
> 
> Seriously, just looking at the tech docs for Shimano Deore XT alone there are 21 different options to pick from for rear derailleurs alone. Add another 18 options for the Deore line and 6 for the SLX line. That's 45 different options just for rear derailleurs alone in those three series. And the have the LX series, the Alivio, Altus, Acera and a couple of other series too. And just as you figure out the differences, they modify the series for next year.
> 
> ...


I don't think he is saying they should know everything but they should know if its going to shift better? be more durable or something and if it comes between 2 close models they aren't familiar with they should say that the don't know for sure but should be comparable, or google it for you right there in the store. I usually get discouraged when the only thing I learn is that I know more than the person helping me. Luckily I have figured out who knows what at my LBS and they have very good prices.


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## Bald_Ben (May 2, 2005)

Curious if other LBS guys in this thread would agree with me.

I am really not offended if somebody buys parts or bikes online. If they do their own mechanical work or don't want a specialized/trek/other shop-only bike, that's fine. If asking questions in person and test riding bikes in a shop works better for them, that's fine too. If somebody spends hours doing research and then chooses their frame/component and buys it online, good for them. The only scenario that really bugs me is when somebody picks my brain for a while (which costs the shop money), then leaves and buys it online.

If your shop provides services and an attitude that people like, they'll keep coming back. If you do the same personally, you'll have customers who will follow you from shop to shop. 

It's easier to get warm and fuzzy because I now work for a shop that provides a living wage and benefits, but it really is about the love of bikes and the enjoyment of getting new people into it that fuels most LBS workers. If we can turn that into substantial value added for you, shop at your LBS. If we can't, then don't. No hard feelings.


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## mark! (Jun 1, 2012)

First LBS I ever walked in to, I was about ready to give up on biking, sadly. Being a clydesdale, you get looks from some LBS guys, knowing they're thinking, "he thinks he can ride a bike?!" I then went to another, larger shop after calling them and asking if they had anything to suit me, he said he had over 4,000 bikes on the floor, if he couldn't find me a bike in my price range, it didn't exist. I was extremely happy with the service, and the price I paid for my bike, and the perks offered as a new bike buyer.

I'll shop around online, and try to find what I want in store for around the same price. The bike I bought was $50 cheaper in the LBS than a few places I found online, and I didn't have to pay shipping, or wait. Plus I got 3 free tune ups, and was able to talk to someone who I felt knew the sport and was able to get me set up with what I needed without making me feel like they were just in it for a commission. 

As far as gun shops go, I've been in enough to know most of those idiots don't know their butts from a hole in the ground when it comes to guns. As a competitive shooter, and with the luxory of living in Texas, I buy most of my guns from guntrader and do the work myself. As with all things, if you're knowledgable enough to check things out yourself, and feel comfortable buying online or used, go for it. After spending more time in this sport and reading like I have been, I'm sure I'll feel better about buying online or used if it's a good deal.


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## Motomarco (Jun 19, 2012)

That's all very deep!


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

ScaryFatKidGT said:


> I don't think he is saying they should know everything but they should know if its going to shift better? be more durable or something and if it comes between 2 close models they aren't familiar with they should say that the don't know for sure but should be comparable, or google it for you right there in the store. I usually get discouraged when the only thing I learn is that I know more than the person helping me. Luckily I have figured out who knows what at my LBS and they have very good prices.


Yeah, but sternalot wasn't satisfied with those "Because its a higher end model" or "because its components are nicer" answers, so he'll probably not like "they shift better" or "they are more durable" either..

Anyway, I didn't seriously want a big explanation, I just wanted to point out that it wasn't really fair to shrug it off as laziness..

Rule of thumb is that when it comes to parts you get what you paid for. If you want to know in details which rear shifter has the best bearings, go google it..


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

Sandrenseren said:


> Lazy you say? Okay, try answering this question, you can take your time and google it if you like. "I'm looking for a rear derailleur, what is the difference between the Deore, Deore XT and the SLX and which is better for me?"
> 
> Seriously, just looking at the tech docs for Shimano Deore XT alone there are 21 different options to pick from for rear derailleurs alone. Add another 18 options for the Deore line and 6 for the SLX line. That's 45 different options just for rear derailleurs alone in those three series. And the have the LX series, the Alivio, Altus, Acera and a couple of other series too. And just as you figure out the differences, they modify the series for next year.
> 
> ...


how is this different from any other position where product knowledge is required for a job.


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

Slozomby said:


> how is this different from any other position where product knowledge is required for a job.


The difference is in the number of options combined with the level of details people ask for.

A car dealer will very rarely be asked if a car has shocks from Monroe or Bilstein or another brand and be asked in details to explain the difference, but the bike dealer is expected to know the difference between 17 different shock brands all with 20 different models - and be able to compare them all.

A car dealer will never be asked what supplier delivered the aircon unit or what kind of fan the unit has, but the bike dealer is often expected to know what kind of material the small cogs in the rear shifter is made of and whether the bearings are ball bearings or the friction type.

Some people will consider every bike almost a custom build and demand to have every little detail explained no matter how insignificant it might be. "What kind of grease did you use, and are the white grease better than the brown?". "Are the bearing in the head tube roller- or ball bearing and what kind does Chris King use and which is better?". Every little detail is up for debate and there's so many brands and options to choose from. They expect the bike dealer to know why the designer put that exact part on the bike rather than another one. The honest answer is "he got a better deal on front forks from Fox this year".

There just isn't enough hours in a day for a LBS to ride every bike and option in order to know which fork gives the smoothest ride and have the least amount of bop.


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

Sandrenseren said:


> The difference is in the number of options combined with the level of details people ask for.


the dealers sales guy probably wont be asked those questions. the guy at offroad specialty will be asked those questions, the guy at autozone will be asked those questions, the dealers parts shop will be asked those questions....

so i ask again how is this different than any other job that requires extensive product knowledge.


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## Rustyy117 (May 29, 2012)

my LBS has been very helpful, like with anything experience may vary,


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

you're simply asking too much if you think bike shop guys are supposed to know all that endless amounts of crap. we know WHERE to find that information and which direction send someone to find more. being a bike mechanic is not the same as being a surgeon or an architect. we learn most of what we know on the job, not from 5-10 years of education and thousands in student loan debt.


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> you're simply asking too much if you think bike shop guys are supposed to know all that endless amounts of crap. we know WHERE to find that information and which direction send someone to find more. being a bike mechanic is not the same as being a surgeon or an architect. we learn most of what we know on the job, not from 5-10 years of education and thousands in student loan debt.


again how is that different from the geek squad or the guy at autozone. both are filled with people that turned a hobby into a job, that have little to no formal training and require a fairly decent amount of product knowledge.

a lot of the "i work at a bike shop" folks on this thread would have you believe they are martyrs and can draw parts fiches from memory.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Slozomby said:


> again how is that different from the geek squad or the guy at autozone. both are filled with people that turned a hobby into a job, that have little to no formal training and require a fairly decent amount of product knowledge.
> 
> a lot of the "i work at a bike shop" folks on this thread would have you believe they are martyrs and can draw parts fiches from memory.


LOL you think the parts clerk at autozone or the geek squad know ****?:eekster:


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

TwoTone said:


> LOL you think the parts clerk at autozone or the geek squad know ****?:eekster:


i'd say on average they were at least as good as the average bike shop guy. at least none of them ever asked me to bring something in to figure out a part when there was an identical model sitting on the showroom floor ( needless to say i've never been back to that lbs). none of them acted like they were doing me a favor looking up something for me.

like any job there are good ones and bad ones. i've had a couple of good junior sys admins i've poached off the geek squad. i guess thats a difference. theres something past geek squad if you have the chops.


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## Bald_Ben (May 2, 2005)

Slozomby said:


> again how is that different from the geek squad or the guy at autozone. both are filled with people that turned a hobby into a job, that have little to no formal training and require a fairly decent amount of product knowledge.
> 
> a lot of the "i work at a bike shop" folks on this thread would have you believe they are martyrs and can draw parts fiches from memory.


How many shop folks are on this thread? How many actually expressed what you represented them as saying?

I get that you've had some bad experiences in shops and I sympathize, I really do. Hell, I've worked in shops that I wouldn't send my friends to. But please, let's keep the angry, hyperbolic generalizations to the political forums where they belong.


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

solomon707 said:


> But please, let's keep the angry, hyperbolic generalizations to the political forums where they belong.


sorry, my bad.


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## Bald_Ben (May 2, 2005)

Slozomby said:


> sorry, my bad.


No worries. I've seen customers walk out of places I've worked justifiably furious. Just remember some of us are the good guys


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

Slozomby said:


> the dealers sales guy probably wont be asked those questions. the guy at offroad specialty will be asked those questions, the guy at autozone will be asked those questions, the dealers parts shop will be asked those questions....
> 
> so i ask again how is this different than any other job that requires extensive product knowledge.


When I go to my auto parts shop and say I need new disks and pads for my car they enter my request into the computer and go get whatever part numbers it says. One car I had were available both with Girling and ATE brakes so they would ask me if my car was one or the other and I had to remember to ask for the Girling version. Any regular clerk with typing skills can do that.

You don't enter an auto part store and say "I want to change the drum brakes on my old Corvette to discs, I'm thinking about getting BMW discs because I hear they are great, will they fit with Ford calipers or should I rather get Honda calipers? Which calipers has the most braking power?".

In general you can't just fit any random brake system to your car, which makes it easy for the parts guy. He only has to ask for the year and model of your car and look up the correct part numbers and tell you if it's in stock or back order. If you want something bigger he might suggest the vented discs from the more powerful version of your particular car. If it has to be even bigger he can look if a Brembo conversion kit exists. He doesn't have to know whether a Mercedes caliper will be more efficient than a Mazda caliper as is generally not possible to mix and match car parts like that.

Bike brakes are a whole different ballgame. Unlike cars where you only have one or two options that will fit your car, you can take your pick from a wide range of brakes when it comes to your bike. So unlike the clerk at the auto parts shop, the LBS can't just say "This is the brake that fits your bike!" and be done with it, he has to get into debates about whether cables are better than hydros, which cable brake is better than the others and why he considers it better and why not that one instead and which has the lightest weight and will that be reliable enough and yadda-yadda-yadda..

I know some guys that have fitted BMW headlamps to old Alfa Romeos, but they've all done the research themselves and the guy at the auto parts shop just gave them the specific headlamp they asked for. It's not like they go to the parts shop and say "I want better lights for my Alfa, which headlamps do you suggest and how many lumen/lux do they put out?". The parts guy doesn't know that.


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## wake2dirt (Jul 22, 2008)

ghoti said:


> I think he hit a tree.


I second that!


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## sealuva (Jun 20, 2012)

Take it all with a grain of salt. Each person is entitled to their own opinion. That's all it is.


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## airforceteacher (May 31, 2012)

Mine is better than I thought. Took my old '99 Mongoose in for a tuneup. Hadnt been ridden in years, never been inside a bike store since the day I bought it. $120 to replace tires, tubes and cables and one vbrake, plus tune and true everything, and I have a beach cruise that beats anything Wally world sells for that amount!

Competition Sports - Gulfport MS


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