# I don't get this trend



## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Seems lots of the "cool" riders these days are flicking the rear tire in turns to dig up and throw dirt off the trail. Does it look cool? Maybe a bit, but it also digs up the trails a lot.

Here in the PNW, it's probably not a problem, but as this cool trick spreads to all the kids who wanna be as cool as the video rider stars, it'll spread to places where digging up the trails is as bad as skidding... or at least as bad as skidding used to be. Yet while we still shame those who skid ("skidiots") for tearing up the trails, we applaud the digging in and flicking dirt off the trails in turns and don't think it's bad form for tearing up the trails.

Is there a difference between the two? Is the digging and flicking less damaging to the trails than skidding?


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

As far as I can tell this "flick" is basically a skid with a little wiggle thrown in. Yes, it'll mess up the trails. Yes, it's bad form because of this.

Trends don't always make sense and they're not always a positive thing.


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

Action camera / pose driven I suspect.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

skiahh said:


> Seems lots of the "cool" riders these days are flicking the rear tire in turns to dig up and throw dirt off the trail. Does it look cool? Maybe a bit, but it also digs up the trails a lot.
> 
> Here in the PNW, it's probably not a problem, but as this cool trick spreads to all the kids who wanna be as cool as the video rider stars, it'll spread to places where digging up the trails is as bad as skidding... or at least as bad as skidding used to be. Yet while we still shame those who skid ("skidiots") for tearing up the trails, we applaud the digging in and flicking dirt off the trails in turns and don't think it's bad form for tearing up the trails.
> 
> *Is there a difference between the two? Is the digging and flicking less damaging to the trails than skidding?*


I've noticed it too. Looks cool in the vids but doubt it's less damaging...Maybe it creates fewer brake bumps but more displaced dirt equals a low-spot to hold moisture. 
Looks a little harder on your rear wheel too.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

When done by a skilled rider, I think it's similar to how BMX riders without brakes check their speed, or possibly the effect of a pronounced counter-steer. Then lesser skilled people try to recreate the effect by mid-using brakes to break the wheel loose. People don't seem to get the difference between a drift and a skid I guess.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> When done by a skilled rider, I think it's similar to how BMX riders without brakes check their speed, or possibly the effect of a pronounced counter-steer. Then lesser skilled people try to recreate the effect by mid-using brakes to break the wheel loose. People don't seem to get the difference between a drift and a skid I guess.


You bring up another question... isn't a drift nothing more than a fancy skid?

And if so, isn't drifting no better for the trails than skidding, since it's basically the same thing: a tire dragging across the dirt, rather than rolling. OK, in a drift, the tire is rolling, but not in a 1:1 ratio to the ground the tire is covering, so still tearing up the trail to some degree.


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

I think you also have to be dressed like an enduro-bro, to really pull it off.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> People don't seem to get the difference between a drift and a skid I guess.


Drifting is a controlled skid. Still effs up the trail, so in this context it's no different.


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## demonlarry (Jun 20, 2011)

Sideknob said:


> I think you also have to be dressed like an enduro-bro, to really pull it off.


I think that's most things now.


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

demonlarry said:


> I think that's most things now.


Damn.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

It is a problem in the PNW at least as much as anywhere else.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

All the bros there have to do it to be cool. These are the same people who remove obstacles from the trail because it ruins their strava time. 


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

This so called trend has been going on for 7everal years. It's all hyped up for video and advertisement reasons. Those that do it on a regular basis in real life riding are twats, twats? Did he just call them twats? Yes he did. Don't worry it's not something that happens in most riders everyday riding. It's just for pushing products to make our sport cooler to the outsiders and the clueless in out sport.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

So over done. Prolly why I can barely make it through any mtn bike vids anymore.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Smithhammer said:


> So over done. Prolly why I can barely make it through any mtn bike vids anymore.


Yep, and I can only handle so much of a ride video with music as the background [and I Love music] and over editing. What ever happened to raw footage with natural sounds of the trail? To me it gives a more realistic feel to actually going on the ride as you view it.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Sideknob said:


> I think you also have to be dressed like an enduro-bro, to really pull it off.


Enduro-bro with go-bro helmet cam. Tele tubbies unite!!!


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## Weaponized (Oct 22, 2017)

Playing in the dirt, even going all the way back to my childhood, has always been something that was done with reckless abandon. To this day I still like to just sit in the dirt and play with it sometimes. I generally don't do those things but I do skid once in awhile, more out of necessity or wanting to get my bike into a position that I couldn't attain otherwise but at the end of the day anyone that tells me the right or wrong way to play in the dirt will likely be told to STFU and turn in their man card at the door. It's dirt for **** sake. You're not going to break it.

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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

On machine built "flow" trails I drag knob as much as possible because F machine built "flow" trails hahaha.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Weaponized said:


> Playing in the dirt, even going all the way back to my childhood, has always been something that was done with reckless abandon. To this day I still like to just sit in the dirt and play with it sometimes. I generally don't do those things but I do skid once in awhile, more out of necessity or wanting to get my bike into a position that I couldn't attain otherwise but at the end of the day anyone that tells me the right or wrong way to play in the dirt will likely be told to STFU and turn in their man card at the door. It's dirt for **** sake. You're not going to break it.


Do a day's work on a trail and come back when you've actually earned a man card.


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## Weaponized (Oct 22, 2017)

noapathy said:


> Do a day's work on a trail and come back when you've actually earned a man card.


A day's work on the trail is earning your man card? You've led sheltered life.

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## smithcreek (Nov 27, 2012)

Have any of you ever actually seen someone do this in real life or are you bored and just need something to get your panties in a bunch about? The obsession with other people who don't ride the right bikes the right way or wear the right clothes is pathetic.


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## Weaponized (Oct 22, 2017)

smithcreek said:


> Have any of you ever actually seen someone do this in real life or are you bored and just need something to get your panties in a bunch about?


I think it's the latter. Apparently when you burn around in the dirt on a machine with knobby tires you must be careful to not leave marks or grooves in the dirt. Dirt has feelings too. Leaving tire tracks in it is no different then failing to rake a sand trap on a golf course and we all know the results of that... Some old guy with a bad comb-over will chase us down and give us the finger wave

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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Weaponized said:


> A day's work on the trail is earning your man card? You've led sheltered life.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


#de-weaponized.


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

Weaponized said:


> To this day I still like to just sit in the dirt and play with it sometimes.


Yeah bro, I do that after I fall off my MTB.

Sit there, cry, and play with the dirt.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Weaponized said:


> I think it's the latter. Apparently when you burn around in the dirt on a machine with knobby tires you must be careful to not leave marks or grooves in the dirt. Dirt has feelings too. Leaving tire tracks in it is no different then failing to rake a sand trap on a golf course and we all know the results of that... Some old guy with a bad comb-over will chase us down and give us the finger wave


Dumbass attitudes like this is exactly why we get shut out of certain areas. Go back and finish high school and then read up on what actually goes into building and maintaining a trail. Until then, please refrain from making idiotic statements in an attempt to sound cool. #endurobro


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)




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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

smithcreek said:


> Have any of you ever actually seen someone do this in real life or are you bored and just need something to get your panties in a bunch about? The obsession with other people who don't ride the right bikes the right way or wear the right clothes is pathetic.


I've been mountain biking for over 30 years and only seen it once. I saw John Tomac do it at Snow Summit in 1994 at the Big Bear Norba National.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Vader said:


> I've been mountain biking for over 30 years and only seen it once. I saw John Tomac do it at Snow Summit in 1994 at the Big Bear Norba National.


I was at that race. Couldn't tell you one way or another if he did that. Getting old sucks.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

skiahh said:


> You bring up another question... isn't a drift nothing more than a fancy skid?
> 
> And if so, isn't drifting no better for the trails than skidding, since it's basically the same thing: a tire dragging across the dirt, rather than rolling. OK, in a drift, the tire is rolling, but not in a 1:1 ratio to the ground the tire is covering, so still tearing up the trail to some degree.


Not saying anything about trail wear, just remarking on the move itself. It's a totally different thing than a skid, actually takes quite a bit of skill to pull off, as you don't use any brake. From what I've seen from some guys I ride with, most often on trails they / I have helped build and maintain, it can be a really fast way to get around certain corners.

I think you're just a bunch of old style-less bastards like myself.
If your trails are built well, they should likely handle a a little sliding around here and there. Not that I think it's something that everybody should try to do at every turn or anything, but seriously, you gotta break 'em loose here and there.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Weaponized said:


> Playing in the dirt, even going all the way back to my childhood, has always been something that was done with reckless abandon. To this day I still like to just sit in the dirt and play with it sometimes. I generally don't do those things but I do skid once in awhile, more out of necessity or wanting to get my bike into a position that I couldn't attain otherwise but at the end of the day anyone that tells me the right or wrong way to play in the dirt will likely be told to STFU and turn in their man card at the door. It's dirt for **** sake. You're not going to break it.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


Usually the first one that tells everyone else to either get or to turn in a man card is the one pining for one.



smithcreek said:


> Have any of you ever actually seen someone do this in real life or are you bored and just need something to get your panties in a bunch about? The obsession with other people who don't ride the right bikes the right way or wear the right clothes is pathetic.


Yes, I had the opportunity to do lots of youth rides last summer and all the teens were trying to get the move down in pretty much every turn they could. And I've seen adults doing it to on some of our trails.



slapheadmofo said:


> I think you're just a bunch of old style-less bastards like myself.


I'm absolutely an old style-less bastard with only a modicum of ability. Doesn't mean I still can't look at it and wonder why tearing up the trail one way is frowned upon and another, celebrated.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I thought skidding always involves locking up a wheel whereas drifting is sliding a bit through a corner with no breaking. The only way to avoid drifting through corners around here is to go slow so I'll be continuing to drift through some of them. I see no measurable trail damage.

Flicking the rear tire in a corner is neither a drift or a skid IMO.


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## Weaponized (Oct 22, 2017)

noapathy said:


> Dumbass attitudes like this is exactly why we get shut out of certain areas. Go back and finish high school and then read up on what actually goes into building and maintaining a trail. Until then, please refrain from making idiotic statements in an attempt to sound cool. #endurobro


You're a brainless little sissy. show me one trail that got shut down because somebody made a skid marks on it you freaking dumbass. You act like we're talking about tearing them up with a damn bobcat. Go bow up against someone else Tinkerbell.

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## Weaponized (Oct 22, 2017)

skiahh said:


> Usually the first one that tells everyone else to either get or to turn in a man card is the one pining for one.
> 
> Yes, I had the opportunity to do lots of youth rides last summer and all the teens were trying to get the move down in pretty much every turn they could. And I've seen adults doing it to on some of our trails.
> 
> I'm absolutely an old style-less bastard with only a modicum of ability. Doesn't mean I still can't look at it and wonder why tearing up the trail one way is frowned upon and another, celebrated.


I'm not the one crying like a little girl because somebody got dirt on my dirt

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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Weaponized said:


> I'm not the one crying like a little girl because somebody got dirt on my dirt
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


Then what are you crying about?


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## Weaponized (Oct 22, 2017)

You guys must really freak out when it rains. I'll bet some of you actually stand out there and yell at the clouds for eroding the dirt

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## Grassington (Jun 24, 2017)

skiahh said:


> You bring up another question... isn't a drift nothing more than a fancy skid?
> 
> And if so, isn't drifting no better for the trails than skidding, since it's basically the same thing: a tire dragging across the dirt, rather than rolling. OK, in a drift, the tire is rolling, but not in a 1:1 ratio to the ground the tire is covering, so still tearing up the trail to some degree.


Nah, they're different. A skid will be gouging the trail, but a drift is just skittering sideways over the loose surface, wheels still rolling 1:1 to the ground. You'd have to really pu55yfoot* round a loose corner to avoid drifting.

That rear wheel snatch-and-flick move is a technique to get around a tight corner; acceptable in some races maybe, but rightly frowned upon when performed on groomed trails. I don't ride groomed trails but I still don't use this move; bit too hooligan. I prefer the Scandanavian flick, endo turn, or (more usually) biasing my weight for oversteer.

There is one circumstance where I'll employ the rear wheel snatch-and-flick, and that's to ward off aggressive dogs. I'll have hounds chase me on the trail all the time: most are friendly and just want to play so with these I'll stop, circle round and bring them back to their owners, but every now and then I'll get a dog that's snapping at my bike and getting a bit close. These dogs get a puff of dust to the face - does no harm and works a treat. If you think I'm being harsh, it's for the benefit of the dog, not me, as I'm not so much worried about being bitten as I am concerned that the dog will stick its snout through my spokes. This happened to a friend of mine once - he was cycling down a country lane when a farm dog came running after him and lunged at his front wheel, sticking its snout through the spokes. The rotation brought the dog's snout to the fork leg, whereupon "the black bit of the dog's nose flew off" and the front end of the bike crumpled, sending its rider OTB and into a very nasty faceplant. I would not like to be the mechanism whereby a dog loses its nose.

* Stupid auto-censor! This word refers to the delicate and deliberate nature of a cat's walk.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I have to skid/drift, otherwise the sheer force of my cornering prowess will set the Earth off its rotational axis. Just doing my part to mitigate global warming. You're welcome.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Grassington said:


> Nah, they're different. A skid will be gouging the trail, but a drift is just skittering sideways over the loose surface, wheels still rolling 1:1 to the ground.


I like how that doesn't even agree with itself...


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## willowbeast (Jul 10, 2017)

noapathy said:


> As far as I can tell this "flick" is basically a skid with a little wiggle thrown in. Yes, it'll mess up the trails. Yes, it's bad form because of this.
> 
> Trends don't always make sense and they're not always a positive thing.


This, think of all the people who have their keys on lanyards.....WTF is that about. Looks dumb having 2 feet of lanyard hanging from your pocket it also dangles I would think when your keys are in the car....


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

skid-









drift-


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Never really paid attention to this issue till I watched some Youtube videos last night and noticed that, yes indeed, they do it every turn. Why? It may look cool once in a blue moon, but every corner is a bit absurd and just damages the trail. 

On the other side of the video watching, and no these guys weren't flicking every turn, I watched a video on the trails around Rotorua in New Zealand. OMG did I miss out! I was there last year twice and rode Woodhill Park and hiked, but never hit the trails in the area. BIG mistake from the looks of it!


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

Sideknob said:


>


that was hilarious 
1st few minutes I was noticing his weak skills (because they look so familiar) then started wondering if it was a send-up and not another escaped wild ego. 
Some people are so creative, new spin on what's become mundane. 
Back to the thread, Mr. wepon has a point about dirt, but he is failing to communicate how much it sucks to tear up trail. Yes we ride it (use it) but we all need to care for it as well.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Weaponized said:


> You guys must really freak out when it rains. I'll bet some of you actually stand out there and yell at the clouds for eroding the dirt
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


 Simpsons' episode.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Vader said:


> I've been mountain biking for over 30 years and only seen it once. I saw John Tomac do it at Snow Summit in 1994 at the Big Bear Norba National.


Ah...the heyday of pro xc racing!


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

I think you all are referring to what they call a "cutty"

They had a "how to" video on on it on pinkbike back in mid December:






https://www.pinkbike.com/news/how-to-cutty-with-brendan-fairclough.html


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

My father told me until I started paying for the tires that I was never to skid, ever.

Now I skid every time, everywhere, whenever I want and no one can stop me!


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Weaponized said:


> Blah blah blah - insult insult. Blah blah idiotic statement. Blah blah.


I don't have time for you troll boy. #endurobrotroll


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## rangerbait (Jul 15, 2007)

Sideknob said:


>


That's about 8 Bitcoin worth of speeding violations right there


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Where I live, there are a lot of very good riders and the dirt is also very slippery. Mid-summer if you are riding with any kind of pace you are sideways a lot.

Now I look after the trail maintenance for one of the main riding areas and honestly IMHO people drifting through turns does zero damage to the trail. Actually quite the opposite, over time flat turns that people drift through develop a natural berm to them. 

I think the whole "Ride don't slide" was a statement that was used to appease hikers and environmentalist in the early days of mountain biking. Those of us who live in communities where trails made, maintained and primarily used by mountain bikers don't have to worry about appeasing hikers. 

And in all fairness even if it does wear trails that is why we have work parties. And at least in my neck of the woods you can always count on the guys/girls who ride the most and the hardest to be their for work parties.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Drifting creates berms on trails that are on flat open land. But it also erodes trails that are cliff side. On trails with plenty of flat space along side of the trail drifting builds berms which enhances the trail in some cases but not always. Which brings to mind a slippery slope this discussion is.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

noapathy said:


> I don't have time for you troll boy. #endurobrotroll


Actually he's not even an edurobro. He's a beginner who doesn't understand the larger picture.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Drifting creates berms on trails that are on flat open land. But it also erodes trails that are cliff side.


I don't think too many people are drifting next to cliffs, that population keeps itself small by nature.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Like so many things mtb, it depends on your trails. Drifting across a loose over hard surface is to be expected. Purposely digging into the trail surface and throwing dirt off creating a rut because "it's cool" is purposely damaging the trail; not cool.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't think too many people are drifting next to cliffs, that population keeps itself small by nature.


LOL
As you know the more skilled you get the temptation is there. I've done it before, more so in downhill skiing, I always enjoyed it.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

I keep trying to drift in chunky baby head corners, doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Drifting is when you are sliding from losing traction, but without the use of excessive (usually no) brakes. Think of it like if you are in a car going around a corner too fast and the rear end starts to slide. You aren't slamming on the brakes to make it slide, you are drifting. You control the drift with lean over and brake pressure. In a car you control it with the throttle (though you may initiate it with the brake)

Skidding is slamming on the brakes to lock up the wheel. You might do it to initiate a drift, but not typically.

I will skid into corners, or drift through them, depending on the terrain and speed. If I am going down a fast, loose trail, getting the rear end stepped out into a corner and squaring it off might be the faster way through then trying to control the roll through. Usually if there is a berm, it becomes a drift as I release the rear brake and the rear tire starts to spin while the bike is leaned over and sideways.

I don't use just one technique to corner. There are multiple ways through, I try to use the one I feel will be best suited for the corner I'm in.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

leeboh said:


> I keep trying to drift in chunky baby head corners, doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?


Nothing. You're riding actual trails, not highways through the woods.

Some of the "flow trails" I've seen are wide enough to drive a car down. They look suspiciously like old Forest Service roads, but were apparently specifically built to ride bikes on. Crazy, eh?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> I keep trying to drift in chunky baby head corners, doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?


Believe it or not, I saw a guy bang out a 360 drift on a rigid fatbike 2 years ago at the Wicked Ride, on some good chunk in front of a ton of people conga-lining at a choke point, then go straight into some fairly obscene dance moves. It was one of the coolest things I've ever seen someone pull off on an XC ride.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Weaponized said:


> I'm not the one crying like a little girl because somebody got dirt on my dirt


In fact, you're the only one in this thread crying. Perhaps it's because the rest of us simply don't take you as seriously as you take yourself.



Grassington said:


> Nah, they're different. A skid will be gouging the trail, but a drift is just skittering sideways over the loose surface, wheels still rolling 1:1 to the ground. You'd have to really pu55yfoot* round a loose corner to avoid drifting.


OK, but if the wheel is skittering along sideways, isn't it still putting a gouge in the trail? And since it's going sideways, a bigger gouge, at that? The wheel isn't rolling 1:1 to the ground in a drift. At least not one inch of revolution to one inch of forward travel. It is sliding, so can't be 1:1.

Sure, I agree that on loose corners, there will be inevitable - if not intentional - drift. But on trails with good traction? And that Cutty move, whether drifting or something else entirely is the topic, not specifically drifting, or are we putting that move in with drifting?



cookieMonster said:


> I have to skid/drift, otherwise the sheer force of my cornering prowess will set the Earth off its rotational axis. Just doing my part to mitigate global warming. You're welcome.


First definitive answer of the thread! 



J.B. Weld said:


> skid-
> 
> View attachment 1177423
> 
> ...


OK, if we're going to put into picture perspective...


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> Nothing. You're riding actual trails, not highways through the woods.
> 
> Some of the "flow trails" I've seen are wide enough to drive a car down. They look suspiciously like old Forest Service roads, but were apparently specifically built to ride bikes on. Crazy, eh?


So crazy. And the time, money, and impact going into building these flow roads is even more crazy. Not MTB trails.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> skid-
> 
> View attachment 1177423


Where did you find a picture of weapon boy? :lol:



J.B. Weld said:


> drift-


That's a road or maybe a DH park? Drift/skid all you want there. Just take note of all the dirt it's throwing up. Some trails can handle it. Where I live we have places that water will pool if the level of the trail is lower than the ground and it doesn't take much. Typically, people end up having to bring in dirt to level it back out. This "flick"/drift/mini-skid would only exacerbate the problem.

As DJ mentioned, some trails can handle it better than others but in most instances eventually it's going to require work to get it back in shape.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

LMN said:


> Where I live, there are a lot of very good riders and the dirt is also very slippery. Mid-summer if you are riding with any kind of pace you are sideways a lot.
> 
> Now I look after the trail maintenance for one of the main riding areas and honestly IMHO people drifting through turns does zero damage to the trail. Actually quite the opposite, over time flat turns that people drift through develop a natural berm to them.
> 
> ...


I don't see this as a problem on our corners either, and we have a lot. People who can't control the brakes, while they pee in their chamois on the steep sections do real damage though.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

noapathy said:


> That's a road or maybe a DH park?


It's a road, I just posted it because the football helmet cracked me up.

I don't go gonzo but on the loose stuff we have around here you're either drifting a little or throttling back. I love the feeling of pulling off a nice controlled (brakeless) drift at speed, all part of the fun and I don't notice any trail damage.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> So crazy. And the time, money, and impact going into building these flow roads is even more crazy. Not MTB trails.


You need to expend the old horizons a little bit man.
Or at least come to terms with the fact that just because you limit yourself to one tiny little niche style of riding, that doesn't mean your take on biking defines it. Get a little variety in your life; trust me, there's a lot of ways to have fun on an MTB.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> It's a road, I just posted it because the football helmet cracked me up.
> 
> I don't go gonzo but on the loose stuff we have around here you're either drifting a little or throttling back. I love the feeling of pulling off a nice controlled (brakeless) drift at speed, all part of the fun and I don't notice any trail damage.


I believe you and I understand the difference in what causes real measurable damage and what's no biggie, but the inexperienced and undereducated might not. I've managed a 2 wheel drift in loose over hard stuff a few times (without dying) and the trail was no worse for wear. And it was really fun to boot!

I really think we're on the same page with this, but here's an example to illustrate my perspective. There's actually this one video that comes to mind where one rider was doing the "skid" manoever around turn after turn and throwing loose soil and rocks each time. So much so that when they stopped, his rear tire/wheel was covered in the stuff. If a teenager just starting out saw that and thought it was cool (never happens, I know) and proceeded to pass it on to his fellow teen riders...well, you see where I'm going. That's the real concern and that's the thread title. If it continues to be popularized or portrayed as acceptable, real damage could be done. Then there are the hikers and horse riders - this is just more ammo for their trail access arsenal.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

leeboh said:


> I keep trying to drift in chunky baby head corners, doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?


Go faster and send it harder. GoPro on, of course.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^^^ Hmmm, faster is always better. I also have some giant house sized granite and slab. How's the drifting on that? Consistent tire release? But faster, got it.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

leeboh said:


> ^^^^^ Hmmm, faster is always better. I also have some giant house sized granite and slab. How's the drifting on that? Consistent tire release? But faster, got it.


I'd suggest dropping tire pressure to about 2 psi. It'll give you better tip-in performance.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Riding bikes, period, is gona cut up the ground. Without the bikes riding the same lines over and over, most trails would not be trails so who decides what level of erosion is correct and acceptable? It is totally subjective. 

Even with maintenance, both trail-center trails and natural trails change constantly. I've seen trails go from ok to impassable within a few years either from vegetation growth or natural erosion. You might not like it but welcome to the real world. 

Is a trail damaged by skidding? I think it depends on how you define damage. Personally I wouldn't say the trail is damaged, it's just different.

There is a short free-ride decent we ride that is not really maintained at all any more and is pretty rough in bits. I like it as it's more challenging and fun. It only take a few minutes to do it but it's hard work and tricky. So is that trail damaged or better?


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

leeboh said:


> I keep trying to drift in chunky baby head corners, doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?


Are you dressing like an enduro-bro?

If not, that could be the problem.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

noapathy said:


> That's a road or maybe a DH park?


It looks an awful lot like a vintage Marin Repack Downhill image (dirt road).


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> You need to expend the old horizons a little bit man.
> Or at least come to terms with the fact that just because you limit yourself to one tiny little niche style of riding, that doesn't mean your take on biking defines it. Get a little variety in your life; trust me, there's a lot of ways to have fun on an MTB.


Hey, that comment should have been directed at my post on this thread. I'm behind the times again. Dang.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

for me, drifting was always a result of taking a poor line, or mis judging the line and having to bail the turn...so I tried to get drift out of my riding style...I never really thought of the "trail damage" side of it because it happened so rarely around my circle of friends...and we ride on non-groomed single track through terrain that is already mostly rocks, roots and chatter...< -and because of this, skidding is sometimes just part of the ride. you hit a patch of gravel hidden by a pile of leaves, or bounce off of a bunch of half buried baby-heads, and you are skidding no matter what


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## smithcreek (Nov 27, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> You need to expend the old horizons a little bit man.
> Or at least come to terms with the fact that just because you limit yourself to one tiny little niche style of riding, that doesn't mean your take on biking defines it. Get a little variety in your life; trust me, there's a lot of ways to have fun on an MTB.


Pffft! He doesn't limit himself to anything and does it all better than anyone including you... on a rigid hardtail... like real men do it. At least that's how he tells it in just about every post.


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

I hear there's a lot of drifting, in Tokyo.

IIRC Toto had a song about it, in the 80's.

"I bless the drifts down in Tokyo...." etc.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> Riding bikes, period, is gona cut up the ground. Without the bikes riding the same lines over and over, most trails would not be trails so who decides what level of erosion is correct and acceptable? It is totally subjective.
> 
> Even with maintenance, both trail-center trails and natural trails change constantly. I've seen trails go from ok to impassable within a few years either from vegetation growth or natural erosion. You might not like it but welcome to the real world.
> 
> ...


Definitely a valid argument. I'd say damage is when the trail is "changed" beyond its intended use requiring intervention. Of course that'll vary location to location.

In your example of the rough, challenging section if the deterioration was brought on by erosion or other natural processes then it would have happened anyway. Proper trail building practices isn't really the topic here, no? The OP was pretty specific. I'd still say that specific trail is better in that case, too (at least for now). Then again I think we had a thread about sanitizing trails already...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DeadGrandpa said:


> Hey, that comment should have been directed at my post on this thread. I'm behind the times again. Dang.


There's nothing wrong with having a favorite style of riding and there's no 'requirement' to ever do anything different. But everyone should appreciate that there are a lot of different aspects to the sport. I'd also recommend dabbling in at least a few, or preferably, a bunch.

Though the vast majority of my riding has always been XC/trail, and I've got a soft spot for narrow, tight and twisty N.E. singletrack, I've mess with BMX bikes pretty regularly now and even built a pumptrack for my town, and from 2000-2008 or so, managed to put in over 200 lift served days. Late 90s were a combination of taking my car off the road for a few years and just pedaling everywhere, endless miles of XC exploration, bikepacking trip and breaking bikes like it was going out of style. Now I've got a 13 y/o kid who kills it on anything with wheels, but really loves the DH flow trails. Lots of guys I ride trails with these days also are regular DHers; one of the best and strongest XC riders not only has commuted over 100,000 miles, but is also the regional Masters enduro champ. There's nothing wrong with different styles of riding at all. Though sometimes it's hard not to make fun of fatbikers.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> You need to expend the old horizons a little bit man.
> Or at least come to terms with the fact that just because you limit yourself to one tiny little niche style of riding, that doesn't mean your take on biking defines it. Get a little variety in your life; trust me, there's a lot of ways to have fun on an MTB.


Ha you know very little of how I've spent time on a MTB over the last 30 years there sparky.

I do not care for machine built brown sidewalk dirt roads. That's all I was saying here.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Ha you know very little of how I've spent time on a MTB over the last 30 years there sparky.
> 
> I do not care for machine built brown sidewalk dirt roads. That's all I was saying here.


Actually, you said they were "not MTB trails". 
Though they may not be to your taste, I'd argue that they are, in fact, undeniably MTB trails.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

smithcreek said:


> Have any of you ever actually seen someone do this in real life or are you bored and just need something to get your panties in a bunch about? The obsession with other people who don't ride the right bikes the right way or wear the right clothes is pathetic.


I have never seen this in real life. Other riders are always behind me. How am I supposed to know what they're doing?


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Yep, and I can only handle so much of a ride video with music as the background [and I Love music] and over editing. What ever happened to raw footage with natural sounds of the trail? To me it gives a more realistic feel to actually going on the ride as you view it.


dirtjunkie, you get nothing but enthusiastic agreement from me on the music thing.

remember what i my sig used to be?


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually, you said they were "not MTB trails".
> Though they may not be to your taste, I'd argue that they are, in fact, undeniably MTB trails.


Well if they are undeniably MTB trails then so is the mountain road that I was riding laps up Monday and today. only difference is one is dirt and one is paved, but the dirt may as well be paved.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually, you said they were "not MTB trails".
> Though they may not be to your taste, I'd argue that they are, in fact, undeniably MTB trails.


Out of curiosity:

At what point is a fire road a trail?

And at what point is a trail a road?

I mean, people like to lampoon double track. What about a smooth path 10ft wide? If I can drive a car down it, is it a trail or a road?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

shekky said:


> dirtjunkie, you get nothing but enthusiastic agreement from me on the music thing.
> 
> remember what i my sig used to be?


Hmmm. . I can't say I recall what your sig line was. But it is good to hear someone agrees with my video music statement.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

noapathy said:


> Definitely a valid argument. I'd say damage is when the trail is "changed" beyond its intended use requiring intervention.
> 
> In your example of the rough, challenging section if the deterioration was brought on by erosion or other natural processes then it would have happened anyway.


My point is that by creating a trail, you are almost by definition damaging the terrain. The ground is no longer in its natural state and some people could, quite justifiably, argue that mountain bike trails of any kind damage the environment.

The people who build mountain bike trails see things differently. In their view the trail is a reasonable use of the land and provides people with access and enjoyment. I agree.

But the land is not theirs. It was there before they were born, it'll still be there when they are buried in it. Who are they to decide that they can now define exactly what the ground should look like and tell people they can only enjoy it in a certain way? The whole point of a mountain bike trail is that people can have fun riding bikes on it. It serves no other purpose. If skidding around is what some riders get a thrill out of what is to say that they are wrong?

Years ago one of the guys who rode with us suggested forming a club. He wanted to come up with a name, buy shirts etc. I told him that if he wanted to buy a shirt then go for it but count me out. Once you have a name and are a club, then you have meetings, then you get a comity and then you get rules. Some people like being on comities and like rules, often the people you might least want in that position, but I'm not one of them. Rules often make the rule makers happy and a larger number of people unhappy. You need some rules obviously but it's where you draw the line. If riders are posing a hazard to other people or heading out with spades to dig up the ground then ok, that's not good but telling people they can only ride in a certain way? Come on. Isn't that fairly contrary to the whole spirit of mountain biking?


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2018)

Skilless here, yea i can skid but prefer not to if at all possible, drift has only occurred a few times when i've overcooked a corner with a moment of "oh ****" damn that hurt.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Hmmm. . I can't say I recall what your sig line was. But it is good to hear someone agrees with my video music statement.


I agree too. Hearing the tires scratching dirt is way better than hearing someone else's choice of musical score. For example, Semenuk's videos usually have "natural" sounds:











I'll make an exception for unReal though. That one is totally badass, music and all:


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

damn mountain bikers complain a lot. You guys must suck to ride with.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Streetdoctor said:


> damn mountain bikers complain a lot. You guys must suck to ride with.


Maybe. I definitely suck to watch tv with.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Sideknob said:


> Are you dressing like an enduro-bro?
> 
> If not, that could be the problem.


 Everything except the man bro bra, dang.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2018)

Streetdoctor said:


> damn mountain bikers complain a lot. You guys must suck to ride with.


if you rode with us, just think you too would suck by association.



Nat said:


> Maybe. I definitely suck to watch tv with.


i don't do much tv so i'm safe in this arena, however behind the wheel of a vehicle i would suck to ride with.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Well if they are undeniably MTB trails then so is the mountain road that I was riding laps up Monday and today. only difference is one is dirt and one is paved, but the dirt may as well be paved.
> View attachment 1177550
> 
> View attachment 1177551


For some folks, that's their thing. 
Seems pretty similar to where it all started to me.

Mountain biking or not mountain biking?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


>


^no chamois

also note that 1 finger braking didn't begin with hydraulic discs


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Love those pics.

But it's worth pointing out that those are dirt roads, not trails. Do whatever the hell you want on dirt roads, please don't tear up trails just cuz you saw ____ _____ do it on some closed track that was built just for the video.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Hmmm. . I can't say I recall what your sig line was. But it is good to hear someone agrees with my video music statement.


my sig used to be a link to my podcast. i was a DJ at KUSF 90.3 FM in san francisco beginning in 1993 and became music director of san francisco community radio (the phoenix from the ashes of KUSF) in mid 2011.

i gave up all this at the beginning of 2017 due to burnout.

i can provide you all with lots of violent music to dig up trails by if you're into that kind of thing...


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Anyone who sits there and judges others on what is or is not "real" mountain biking has a worthless opinion.

If you call your bike a mountain bike and you ride it, it's mountain biking. The details are irrelevant, ride your own ride.



shekky said:


> my sig used to be a link to my podcast. i was a DJ at KUSF 90.3 FM in san francisco beginning in 1993 and became music director of san francisco community radio (the phoenix from the ashes of KUSF) in mid 2011.


I'm trying to remember what I listened to before I started listening to when I was up there, besides CD's. I was stationed in Alameda 2000-2006.


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## Dougr (Jun 15, 2006)

What I don't like are the chatter marks that show up on descents, just before steep, sharp turns. I think most of these are caused by inexperienced riders who just don't know how to modulate their braking and end up locking up.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

shekky said:


> my sig used to be a link to my podcast. i was a DJ at KUSF 90.3 FM in san francisco beginning in 1993 and became music director of san francisco community radio (the phoenix from the ashes of KUSF) in mid 2011.
> 
> i gave up all this at the beginning of 2017 due to burnout.
> 
> i can provide you all with lots of violent music to dig up trails by if you're into that kind of thing...


I guess I never clicked on your link. I do remember clicking on a photography blog of yours in your sig line, I see it's still there.:thumbsup: Some good photography in there.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Smithhammer said:


> Love those pics.
> 
> But it's worth pointing out that those are dirt roads, not trails. Do whatever the hell you want on dirt roads, please don't tear up trails just cuz you saw ____ _____ do it on some closed track that was built just for the video.


My point in that post was not about skidding/sliding/drifting, it was about people narrowly defining what mountain biking is based on nothing but their personal preferences, then proclaiming that any riding that happens outside of those preferences isn't even part of the sport.

See Sidewalk's post for more detail.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> My point in that post was not about skidding/sliding/drifting, it was about people narrowly defining what mountain biking is based on nothing but their personal preferences, then proclaiming that any riding that happens outside of those preferences isn't even part of the sport.
> 
> See Sidewalk's post for more detail.


Gotcha. And agreed. :thumbsup:


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

J.B. Weld said:


> ^no chamois
> 
> also note that 1 finger braking didn't begin with hydraulic discs


Yeah it started back in the 1970's via me at 12 years old on my dirt bike. I invented that sh*t.  Funny how things transitioned over into mountain biking.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> My point is that by creating a trail, you are almost by definition damaging the terrain. The ground is no longer in its natural state and some people could, quite justifiably, argue that mountain bike trails of any kind damage the environment.
> 
> The people who build mountain bike trails see things differently. In their view the trail is a reasonable use of the land and provides people with access and enjoyment. I agree.
> 
> ...


Really? Going philosophical? So nobody's wrong in anything they do and take zero responsibilty for their own actions "because mountain biking". Except thare are others who use trails besides you and I (some don't even ride bikes, gasp). Oops, forgot about your fellow man and future generations in the argument.

Count MrPig out of society in general, check! :lol:


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I don't think it's *that* terrible when used sparingly, for a certain specific purpose.

I'm getting really sick of the shreddits where some jack-hole in a FF helmet and goggles does it 100 times in a 90 second clip. 

Like, really, a$$hole? EVERY corner, huh? 

I saw one a week or so ago, that was the dude's default means of turning. I wanted to punch him in his stupid head.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> My point is that by creating a trail, you are almost by definition damaging the terrain. The ground is no longer in its natural state and some people could, quite justifiably, argue that mountain bike trails of any kind damage the environment.
> 
> The people who build mountain bike trails see things differently. In their view the trail is a reasonable use of the land and provides people with access and enjoyment. I agree.
> 
> ...


I'm a clubbie and this attitude is common and pisses me off. I see it purely as a rational people use to excuse not lending a hand. 
Our club builds trails for every sort of riding, runs events (up to and including EWS and UCI level), provides kids coaching, operates shuttles three times a week. 
People who slag us off are still happy to use our trails, attend events and use the shuttles.... 
The simple fact is things have to reasonably organised - new trails have to be sanctioned and approved otherwise the land owners/local council gets upset and we lose access. Our club works hard to allow people to submit ideas and build their trails but we don't allow open slather - that's how dumb, unsustainable and dodgy trails happen.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Dougr said:


> What I don't like are the chatter marks that show up on descents, just before steep, sharp turns. I think most of these are caused by inexperienced riders who just don't know how to modulate their braking and end up locking up.


Oh no no no no!!!!! It must be the trail builders fault for routing the trail incorrectly!!!!!! 


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> My point in that post was not about skidding/sliding/drifting, it was about people narrowly defining what mountain biking is based on nothing but their personal preferences, then proclaiming that any riding that happens outside of those preferences isn't even part of the sport.
> 
> See Sidewalk's post for more detail.


Again I'm just not into machine built "not MTB" flow trails and all that they nurture and represent. They bring a whole lotta ghey to the MTB table IMO. Hahaha.

i promise to rut and brake jack the F out of any I happen to come across!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Again I'm just not into machine built "not MTB" flow trails and all that they nurture and represent. They bring a whole lotta ghey to the MTB table IMO. Hahaha.


Wow. That's a really impressive level of arrogance and ignorance on display right there. 
Congrats on that.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Whatever.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Oh no no no no!!!!! It must be the trail builders fault for routing the trail incorrectly!!!!!! 


That is actually an example of a maintenance need that can be anticipated and prevented by thoughtful alignment.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

evasive said:


> That is actually an example of a maintenance need that can be anticipated and prevented by thoughtful alignment.


Hahaha here we go again 😀


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Again I'm just not into machine built "not MTB" flow trails and all that they nurture and represent. They bring a whole lotta ghey to the MTB table IMO. Hahaha.


Booooooo.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

evasive said:


> That is actually an example of a maintenance need that can be anticipated and prevented by thoughtful alignment.


I dunno - braking bumps are just something that happens, even on well built and maintained trails. Has a lot to do with the level of traffic IME.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Whatever.


Whatever yourself. 
I have lots friends and family that enjoy riding in lots of different ways. 
Who the frig are you to pass judgement?


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Hahaha here we go again 


Yeah, that's pretty much the way I feel about it, too. [sigh]



slapheadmofo said:


> I dunno - braking bumps are just something that happens, even on well built and maintained trails. Has a lot to do with the level of traffic IME.


To a degree. But where they're really a recurring problem, there are predictable elements that cause people to squeeze the brakes. Brake bumps don't develop on wide open fast stretches, at least in my experience. You don't have to like dirt sidewalks to realize that some 'flow trail' concepts work equally well with narrow singletrack. For example, sight lines and using grade reversals as natural speed checks before turns. Our worst brake bumps are always where people are locking up above a turn or switchback. That's predictable.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Well, this has devolved far enough to include...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

evasive said:


> Yeah, that's pretty much the way I feel about it, too. [sigh]
> 
> To a degree. But where they're really a recurring problem, there are predictable elements that cause people to squeeze the brakes. Brake bumps don't develop on wide open fast stretches, at least in my experience. You don't have to like dirt sidewalks to realize that some 'flow trail' concepts work equally well with narrow singletrack. For example, sight lines and using grade reversals as natural speed checks before turns. Our worst brake bumps are always where people are locking up above a turn or switchback. That's predictable.


Definitely, but depending on style of trail and level of traffic, they're just going to happen in certain places. Just something that has to be dealt with as part of routine maintenance sometimes. I usually only run into them at lift-served places personally.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> Definitely, but depending on style of trail and level of traffic, they're just going to happen in certain places. Just something that has to be dealt with as part of routine maintenance sometimes. I usually only run into them at lift-served places personally.


Trails here are generally longer than a mile, wide open, and not technical. You can ride fast. We have a number of trails with problem spots that develop big bumps within a few days. They're all locations where you're carrying a lot of speed and have to shut it down for a switchback, or a there's a turn that scares beginner/intermediate riders into grabbing their brakes.

These issues will never go away because people are really attached to the current alignments. Going forward, we'll make an effort to reduce them by design by using grade reversals where we can to cut speed prior to turns. That's a safety consideration on multi-use trails, too.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Going forward, designing trails that won't require much of any skills at all to ride. Nor require a rider to learn any.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

egos and hidebound thinking are beginning to dominate this thread. it's not everyone, just a few. 

a very few.

open your eyes, some of you, and try to get it through your skulls one man's reality might not be the same as yours due to geographic location.


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## Hawseman (Jun 1, 2007)

Common courtesy......it's done with this idiot generation. Night all!


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## Hawseman (Jun 1, 2007)

Sorry, one more comment.

I build trails for the biking community. If somebody alters my trail by moving dirt from it and doesn't fix it, I put a shovel in their azz. Night all...again!


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

Hawseman said:


> Common courtesy......it's done with this idiot generation. Night all!


Baby boomers?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## Hawseman (Jun 1, 2007)

IPunchCholla said:


> Baby boomers?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Hehe...."idiot generation" is a bad phrase. That can span decades, including mine (not baby boomer). It's the latest american "I don't give a **** about the other guy" mentality. This is cell-phone driver, prescription drug user, millennial.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Just another comradery thread in the world of mtbr. ut: And for those that don’t agree with my stance on this > :ciappa:


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Just another comradery thread in the world of mtbr. ut: And for those that don't agree with my stance on this > :ciappa:


one of my more acerbic co-workers in the trade-show rackets always told me to "smile and nod"...


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Hawseman said:


> Sorry, one more comment.
> 
> I build trails for the biking community. If somebody alters my trail by moving dirt from it and doesn't fix it, I put a shovel in their azz. Night all...again!


You would have gone bonkers in the Preserving Moore thread. :lol:


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## Hawseman (Jun 1, 2007)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Just another comradery thread in the world of mtbr. ut: And for those that don't agree with my stance on this > :ciappa:


Agreed....I think. Based on your posts in this thread, I can't tell where you stand.

Personally, my philosophy, you do whatever you want, just give it back to the next guy. It's not difficult.


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## Hawseman (Jun 1, 2007)

Mookie said:


> You would have gone bonkers in the Preserving Moore thread. :lol:


Awww...missed it. I'm only in Passion, because I posted a dog pic recently.

I do like building. Not as much as riding, of course. Riding is still my passion. I don't want to see abuse overtake compassion. Historically, it's got a bad outcome.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Haggis said:


> I'm a clubbie and this attitude is common and pisses me off. I see it purely as a rational people use to excuse not lending a hand.


In the UK there is a saying, maybe you have it in NZ too, 'My bat, my ball'. It stems from childhood days when the kid who owned the bat and ball felt that the dependency on him that others had gave him the right to dictate how they played the game.

I understand that if you've built the trails you feel a strong connection to them but to stomp you're feet and try dictate how people ride them is being a spoiled child. Did you build the trails for others or because you wanted to ride them? Building for others is a generous thing to do but kindness is undone if you demand something in return, especially something unreasonable. Not allowing motorbikes on mountain bike trails is fair enough but when you start saying that kids can only ride their pedal bikes on the trail in a particular fashion you've crossed the line. Do you agree?

That's what the thread is about but to answer your point, the 'club' my friend wanted to start was for road riding, very different from your situation, but if we talk about yours. It's always a minority of people who do the work. Why do you do it? Like I said, if you give trails to the community then you have to accept that they can use them as it suits them. If you give something away it's not yours anymore, you've gifted it, and you can't make demands on someone because you've given them something they didn't ask for. They might be happy and grateful to receive it but even that is not an obligation. If it pisses you off that some trail users don't want to come and dig with you then your motives are wrong. What would you say to the walkers and conservationists who are pissed off that you built the trails in the first place?


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

nvphatty said:


> if you rode with us, just think you too would suck by association.


It would never happen, I ride because it's fun.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Mr Pig said:


> I understand that if you've built the trails you feel a strong connection to them but to stomp you're feet and try dictate how people ride them is being a spoiled child. Did you build the trails for others or because you wanted to ride them? Building for others is a generous thing to do but kindness is undone if you demand something in return, especially something unreasonable. Not allowing motorbikes on mountain bike trails is fair enough but when you start saying that kids can only ride their pedal bikes on the trail in a particular fashion you've crossed the line. Do you agree?
> 
> That's what the thread is about but to answer your point, the 'club' my friend wanted to start was for road riding, very different from your situation, but if we talk about yours. It's always a minority of people who do the work. Why do you do it? Like I said, if you give trails to the community then you have to accept that they can use them as it suits them. If you give something away it's not yours anymore, you've gifted it, and you can't make demands on someone because you've given them something they didn't ask for. They might be happy and grateful to receive it but even that is not an obligation. If it pisses you off that some trail users don't want to come and dig with you then your motives are wrong. What would you say to the walkers and conservationists who are pissed off that you built the trails in the first place?


To try and bring this thread back on topic, let's use your example/questions.

If trail builders say skidding is bad for the trails, is that "fair enough"? If the clubs and land owners and others who sponsor the trails say skidding is bad for them, is it "fair enough" to say don't skid because it damages the trails... or is that crossing the line? Do trail builders, sponsors and owners "give a trail away" or do they let others enjoy them while maintaining either ownership or management of those trails? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, so builders do, in deed have a say in how those trails should be ridden. Or not ridden, I guess. No skidding is pretty widely accepted as not acceptable, right? I'd guess that riders didn't make that "rule", but rather trail builders and land managers did.

So... is a cutty skidding? If not specifically skidding, is it still damaging to trails? And if so, is the "cool" factor of the move overshadowing the damage they cause to trails?

(For the record, it does look to me to cause as much damage to a turn as skidding into one does simply by moving dirt out of the turn. But maybe, over time, if done enough, it would cause a natural berm and improve the turn/trail? Or changes the drainage of turns that would allow water to damage the trail?)


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2018)

Streetdoctor said:


> It would never happen, I ride because it's fun.


that should be the 1st priority.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

noapathy said:


> Drifting is a controlled skid. Still effs up the trail, so in this context it's no different.


Maybe I understand it differently, but skidding is locking the wheel with the brake. Drifting uses no brake.

When done properly (and yes I realize that's a can o' worms) I don't think drifting hurts anything. I don't even think you can easily tell (by looking at the trail) that it's happened, though i guess that depends on the soil type.

FWIW, I've drifted maybe 10 times in 35 years of riding, so it's not like it's my go-to or anything. Usually happens on accident, and I'm thrilled if I can ride it out.

Drifting *on snow* on the other hand, is effing awesome and I've done it half a dozen times already this season. I wasn't much of a fan of grooming snow for bikes until I learned to drift the corners. Holy shiznit is that addictive...


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Ya agree drifting on snow is a pretty amazing feeling. Skinny tire a bit more thrilling than on fat IMO.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

mikesee said:


> Maybe I understand it differently, but skidding is locking the wheel with the brake. Drifting uses no brake.
> 
> When done properly (and yes I realize that's a can o' worms) I don't think drifting hurts anything. I don't even think you can easily tell (by looking at the trail) that it's happened, though i guess that depends on the soil type.
> 
> ...


My favorite local trail to descend on a fat bike is 7 switchbacks over about 600 feet. It gets a lot of traffic, so it rides like it's groomed. The turns are just open enough to drift, and it's crazy fun.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

mikesee said:


> Maybe I understand it differently, but skidding is locking the wheel with the brake. Drifting uses no brake.
> 
> When done properly (and yes I realize that's a can o' worms) I don't think drifting hurts anything. I don't even think you can easily tell (by looking at the trail) that it's happened, though i guess that depends on the soil type.
> 
> ...


Check out my other post. I have a feeling we basically agree.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

skiahh said:


> If trail builders say skidding is bad for the trails, is that "fair enough"?


I fear this is going to be another interminable thread of perpetual repetition and angst.

No, it's not fair enough. Their unilateral decision that skidding should be outlawed is based on their narrow and jaundiced view of what constitutes reasonable use of the trail. A view heavily coloured by the fact that they are responsible for maintaining the trail and see anything that might increase that workload in a biased fashion. It's one-sided and unreasonable.

Say you all get together and talk about the impact of skidding. You've got a group of people who are all involved in the building and maintenance and you'll all be of similar opinion on the issue. This peer affirmation will strengthen and exaggerate your opinion and you end up with the blinkered and illogical rhetoric internet forums thrive on!

Skidding destroys trails. Really? Does that make sense?

Let's take for example the trail center I've been to the most often, Glentress in the Scottish borders. It's a large trail center with all grades of trail and it's very busy. 300'000 visitors in 2014 and I know for a fact it's busier now. There are no signs telling riders not to skid or limiting the type of bike and riding allowed in any way. They even allow eBikes. Have I seen evidence of skidding destroying the trails? No. Which doesn't surprise me very much as the idea doesn't make that much sense.

The pastern of substrate dispersal seen in corners is going to happen anyway. Look at a flat bend in the road and you'll see a deposit of stones and dirt around the outside edge. Cars generally don't skid around corners but turning the corner still has the effect of throwing debris outwards.

Or the more destructive practice of locking up brakes in a straight line, popular with ten-year-old's of all ages. Again, normal braking, say approaching a corner for example, is still going to dig into the dirt and cause wear. Locking a wheel does the same type of damage, just a bit more of it.

So pulling numbers out of the air, you could maybe say that one rider who skids or slides causes surface displacement that is equivalent to twenty riders who don't. Total guess but it doesn't matter. The point is that the same damage will occur whichever the type of riding, just at different rates.

Now think about another number. How many of the trail users skid or slide? From what I've seen, not that many. It takes some skill, most riders don't have it, and even those who do don't all choose to drift every corner. I think it's obvious that the vast majority of trail wear comes not from skidding but from the sheer volume of trail users.

I'm sure the fun part of trail building is designing the trails and riding them. Who wants to keep going out to fix the same trail over and over again, right? So I can see why you'd get grumpy about trail damage and look for someone to blame but let's be serous, you could just as justifiably blame normal trail users and propose a limit to the numbers to reduce trail damage!

You see the problem? Mountain bike trails exist to provide riding enjoyment for the people riding them. The only way you can reduce wear on the trails is to restrict the freedom riders have to ride them. Whether that is by reducing rider numbers or banning skidding, good luck with enforcing that by the way, you are bringing into question the very reason for the existence of the trail in the first place!

Maintain the trails or don't maintain the trails but stop whining about it. It's a brilliant thing you guys are doing, taking on the responsibility of building and maintaining trails, but remember what they are for. So maybe it does create a little more work but don't take the fun out of riding. That's the reason we all get on bikes.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

No amount of DH skidding or cornering technique erodes trails nearly as fast as XC racer geeks feeling like they have to go "train" and ride clearly directional trails in reverse in their granny gear. 

Skidding and drifting on DHs may be a problem in specific soil types, or on very popular shuttled runs in loam or otherwise not compacted dirts. The force vectors on the tread are at a very shallow angle and don't "Dig" at the tread with anywhere near the applied force of the tire of a climber in a very light gear. Direction of force vector and torque make climbers WAY more erosive then dh traffic. 
Stop riding **** backwards ya'idiots.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DaveVt said:


> Direction of force vector and torque make climbers WAY more erosive then dh traffic.
> Stop riding **** backwards ya'idiots.


Can't say I've ever noticed trail damage from climbing, guess it must be a regional thing.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Drifting and skidding are two completely different acts. In a skid the rider is activating the tire's braking knobs and forcing them to dig into the ground. In a proper drift the tire's lateral acceleration threshold has been exceeded and results in the tire losing grip and sliding to the outside of a turn. In this instance the tire is not digging into the ground. It is skimming over the top of the trail. There is a marked difference in damage between the two. 

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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> Can't say I've ever noticed trail damage from climbing, guess it must be a regional thing.


You've never seen a root create a step in the trail with the down hill side eroded away several inches? Must not have tree roots on your trails.

I think the cutty or roost is more damaging in terms of physics than a skid. I love the technique and use it where applicable. I also do a lot of trail work and generally fix my own mess.

If this "new" style is changing your trails, you have too many users and not enough contributors. Trails can sustain this use if the riders are engaged in all aspects of trail use, including trail work.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DaveVt said:


> You've never seen a root create a step in the trail with the down hill side eroded away several inches? Must not have tree roots on your trails.


Trees?

I'm sure tires may instigate it but water really does a number on the down side of ledges.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> Trees?
> 
> I'm sure tires may instigate it but water really does a number on the down side of ledges.


In my studies I find this phenomenon to not be exclusive true. I've watched it happen where water is not an issue. Climbers also seek lines around things a dh rider makes no considerations for. A steeper dh is far more sustainable than a steep climb, skidding, roosting, and all.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I think you more have an issue with that style of rider than anything else, based on your wording.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Mr Pig said:


> I fear this is going to be another interminable thread of perpetual repetition and angst.
> 
> No, it's not fair enough. Their unilateral decision that skidding should be outlawed is based on their narrow and jaundiced view of what constitutes reasonable use of the trail. A view heavily coloured by the fact that they are responsible for maintaining the trail and see anything that might increase that workload in a biased fashion. It's one-sided and unreasonable.
> 
> ...


Speaking of whining... that was quite the whiiiine. Wahhh.... the trail builders are all lazy and don't know anything about the trails they build. But they don't want to do any extra work, so they all conspire to say skidding is baaaad.

But, of course, you know better. You're onto the conspiracy and you know they really don't know anything about proper trail building and maintenance. They just don't want to have to go do more work so the smart ones, like you, can use and "abuse" the trails to their heart's content knowing those lazy trailbuilders will come out and fix any damage that _may_ occur, but mainly because of normal riding. Or uphill riding, as DaveVT says.

Thank you for your wisdom and setting us all straight. Hopefully, those pesky, lazy, inconsiderate *volunteer* trailbuilders are reading this and have learned some valuable lessons from the wisdom you've so thoughtfully shared.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

skiahh said:


> Wahhh.... the trail builders are all lazy and don't know anything about the trails they build. But they don't want to do any extra work, so they all conspire to say skidding is baaaad.


I didn't say that trail builder are lazy, just not right about everything. In fact I'm not talking to all trail builders, just petulant ones like you. Why don't you just chill out and let the kids ride their bikes?


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## RobLyman (May 8, 2006)

*Loam*

Some riding techniques are more fun than other techniques, but may also be more damaging. We kind of hope everyone will choose a technique that prolongs the best condition of the trails. Just remember:


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

tealy said:


> The people arguing that no one should ever tear up a trail having fun are like the old people yelling at skateboarders for marginally damaging ledges in the park.
> 
> They don't understand the art of shredding because they can't shred and it makes them bitter.


No, marginally tearing up a ledge that does not belong to you is willful destruction of property and is already illegal. Same goes with a trail, probably not illegal, however if Hacksaw ever gets caught "brake jacking" and rutting up a trail his words here might catch him a vandalism charge, it is still disrespectful. If you built the trail on private land you have access to and it is intended to be for your private use, ie you and friends, do whatever you like. However, you have no right to destroy other's, or public, work and property.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

DaveVt said:


> No amount of DH skidding or cornering technique erodes trails nearly as fast as XC racer geeks feeling like they have to go "train" and ride clearly directional trails in reverse in their granny gear.
> 
> Skidding and drifting on DHs may be a problem in specific soil types, or on very popular shuttled runs in loam or otherwise not compacted dirts. The force vectors on the tread are at a very shallow angle and don't "Dig" at the tread with anywhere near the applied force of the tire of a climber in a very light gear. Direction of force vector and torque make climbers WAY more erosive then dh traffic.
> Stop riding **** backwards ya'idiots.


"Clearly directional".

No such thing. Unless it's actually marked as such, it isn't a "directional" trail. Sorry. Your opinion doesn't make a trail something it isn't.

Also, I'd be willing to bet than an "XC racer geek" does less damage to a trail in a year (or more) than one PinkBike shreddit. I'm pretty quick uphill, and I've never had dirt spray out from under my tires while climbing.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/brendog-shreds-in-pila-video-2017.html

Pretty good example as well. Comparing someone maintaining traction while climbing uphill at 8mph vs. the video below is just absurd. Come on.

https://nsmb.com/articles/trail-destruction-matty-miles/


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Same goes with a trail, probably not illegal, however if Hacksaw ever gets caught "brake jacking" and rutting up a trail his words here might catch him a vandalism charge..


Superb! Have you thought of joining the police? In 1930's Germany?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> Superb! Have you thought of joining the police? In 1930's Germany?


It didn't take Godwin long to show up. No, I was just brought up to have a healthy respect for other people's property and work.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> Superb! Have you thought of joining the police? In 1930's Germany?


As to the legality of him being prosecuted. First you're making a strawman. Second, he's made clear that destruction by him on a flow trail is malicious and willful. If a gung-ho DA decided to they would have a case.

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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> As to the legality of him being prosecuted. First you're making a strawman.


I'm not making anything, I quoted you.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nobody is getting prosecuted for skidding. 
Never going to happen, ever, anywhere. 

Stop the insanity!


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> I'm not making anything, I quoted you.


And why should I join the police? Because I think he should catch a vandalism charge?

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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Nobody is getting prosecuted for skidding.
> Never going to happen, ever, anywhere.


It doesn't matter. This lets you see the mentality you're dealing with. America produced some of the best skateboarders and BMX riders in the world precisely because people like this were _not_ running the country.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> It doesn't matter. This lets you see the mentality you're dealing with. America produced some of the best skateboarders and BMX riders in the world precisely because people like this were _not_ running the country.





tuckerjt07 said:


> And why should I join the police? Because I think he should catch a vandalism charge?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Answer the question please

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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Hahaha!!! I'm gonna come down to the NWA and knob drag the krap out of your trails!!!!

Go ahead and call the WHAAAAMBULANCE you sissy!!!😂


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Answer the question please.


Are you sure you're not in the police?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> Are you sure you're not in the police?


Quit dodging the question. Why should I join the police?

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Hahaha!!! I'm gonna come down to the NWA and knob drag the krap out of your trails!!!!
> 
> Go ahead and call the WHAAAAMBULANCE you sissy!!!😂


Though nobody is getting prosecuted, I can guarantee I know places where you'd better be ready to dodge a shovel if someone catches you purposefully going out and trashing their hard work out of childish spite. Which is as it should be.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Quit dodging the question. Why should I join the police?


I think you might be a natural. Not everyone can be Tony Hawk. Although I appreciate that on principal you might not want to be anyway.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)




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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Though nobody is getting prosecuted, I can guarantee I know places where you'd better be ready to dodge a shovel if someone catches you purposefully going out and trashing their hard work out of childish spite. Which is as it should be.


Heh, catching me in the act would be unpossible, unpossible I tellz ya. I am the 👻 Rider.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> I think you might be a natural. Not everyone can be Tony Hawk. Although I appreciate that on principal you might not want to be anyway.


In other words you talked yourself into a hole with your implication before you realized you thought I said something I didn't, classic strawman Got it thanks.

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Heh, catching me in the act would be unpossible, unpossible I tellz ya. I am the 👻 Rider.


They've got these things now called 'game cameras'. 
They work.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Though nobody is getting prosecuted, I can guarantee I know places where you'd better be ready to dodge a shovel if someone catches you purposefully going out and trashing their hard work out of childish spite. Which is as it should be.


Out of curiosity:

How is that any different than the average PinkBike shred/roost video?

The result is the same, the intent is effectively the same.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Out of curiosity:
> 
> How is that any different than the average PinkBike shred/roost video?
> 
> ...


The ones like the one you linked usually leave the trail in better condition than they found it when filming is done.

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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> They've got these things now called 'game cameras'.
> They work.


Hahaha oh no!!!!!😱😂


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> The ones like the one you linked usually leave the trail in better condition than they found it when filming is done.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


What about the non-"pros" that film their own videos, then leave for the day?

Those guys were actively widening trails; this is how we go from a shoulder wide ribbon of dirt to a 7ft wide "trail".

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Out of curiosity:
> 
> How is that any different than the average PinkBike shred/roost video?
> 
> ...


Intent is not the same.
One is incidental to riding, one is deliberately just being a dick.

For example:
I don't get upset if a rock flies off up from someone's tire on the highway and hits my car.

I do get upset if some asshole purposefully throws a rock at my car.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> What about the non-"pros" that film their own videos, then leave for the day?
> 
> Those guys were actively widening trails; this is how we go from a shoulder wide ribbon of dirt to a 7ft wide "trail".
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


In that case yes, they may be causing damage, but still not as much as a full on skid for the most part. The industry needs to do a better job of making the cleanup part more visible in their films.

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Hahaha oh no!!!!!


Oh yeah!

So far we've only actually needed them to help keep the teen drinkers from trashing stuff and for a couple ATV riders that needed a visit from the local PD to get them to play nice with the MTB trails. None of the actual mountain bikers I've met in my entire life have been the sort of douchebags to purposefully go out of their way to try to damage trails simply out of juvenile selfishness and spite.

Well, until now I guess.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> In that case yes, they may be causing damage, but still not as much as a full on skid for the most part. The industry needs to do a better job of making the cleanup part more visible in their films.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Agreed.

But, trail work doesn't sell bikes.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But, trail work doesn't sell bikes.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


There have been a couple, usually someone like Semenuk or another slopestyler, where trail work features heavily and is artfully done, but yes I agree. Interestingly enough I've never once watched an industry video and said I have to have that lol.

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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

I freaking love skidding!


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

Wow, the SJW is strong in this thread.

Now watch me cutty!


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

raisingarizona said:


> I freaking love skidding!


This!!!^^^^^

I'm gonna skid bulldozah trails so hahd that the game cameraz are gonna get smoke screened out!


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

what is skid
To me it's a mistake. When I feel my tires slipping because of the brake being over-applied, I try to adjust the pressure I'm using. On the other hand I love feeling all hooligan by speeding loosely through the turns like crazy, and flying off any little feature I can find.
And D J, your damn squirrel is phunnny I'm printing that to use with a few co-workers.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

jim c said:


> what is skid


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Cornfield said:


>


Good perspective!

Now... where does the cutty fit into this hierarchy?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Mr. Pig, this trail centre you speak of? Full time trail crew? Seems like a huge amount of riders for a year?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Ya'll got it wrong, skidding means you are using the brakes. Wrong. Those just slow you down. Are you a fast rider or one that goes slow? Flow on the trail. Be the rock. Become the wheel. Roll. Roll on. That is all.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

leeboh said:


> Mr. Pig, this trail centre you speak of? Full time trail crew? Seems like a huge amount of riders for a year?


I don't know. The site is owned by the Forestry Commission and they are responsible for the trails as far as I am aware, but I could be wrong. You do regularly see guys working out on the trails or trails closed for maintenance.

To be honest, I really don't see a lot of damage that might be attributed to skidding or sliding. None really. The post common sights are 'bomb craters'. Water collects on low points, the ground gets soft then thrown out when bikes pass through it. The resulting hole is even better at collecting water so the hole gets bigger!

But heck, who cares? Is this mountain biking or what? Suddenly we can't deal with a small hole in the ground?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Mr Pig said:


> I don't know. The site is owned by the Forestry Commission and they are responsible for the trails as far as I am aware, but I could be wrong. You do regularly see guys working out on the trails or trails closed for maintenance.
> 
> To be honest, I really don't see a lot of damage that might be attributed to skidding or sliding. None really. The post common sights are 'bomb craters'. Water collects on low points, the ground gets soft then thrown out when bikes pass through it. The resulting hole is even better at collecting water so the hole gets bigger!
> 
> But heck, who cares? Is this mountain biking or what? Suddenly we can't deal with a small hole in the ground?


 Well it's kind of the point. 300,000 riders a year I'm sure has a full time trail care crew. That's WHY you don't see the damage. Are they one way trails? Lots of different areas in the US ( And Afar) for terrain, trail style and dirt types. MA rider here, lots of rock, little dirt, almost no wide dirt roads type mt bike trails. Mostly volunteer trail builds on state and local conservation lands. NOT paid trail crews doing weekly upkeep. A little protective of their hard work I'm sure. Loose over hardpack? I keep reading about that, never pedaled on it. The skidding thing I'm sure is very regional, dirt specific type thing. How about this, ride nicely, don't be a d bag?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

leeboh said:


> Well it's kind of the point. 300,000 riders a year I'm sure has a full time trail care crew. That's WHY you don't see the damage.


I guess they must like bomb craters then? Are you suggesting they ignore the hundreds of bomb craters I see but sort skid damage instantly? That doesn't make any sense.

Yes, virtually all of the trail are one-way. Some of the access roads are two-way and bikes share some gravel roads with cars too but the single-track is all one-way.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tuckerjt07 said:


> The ones like the one you linked usually leave the trail in better condition than they found it when filming is done.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Umm no they do not.

I live in Kamloops BC, one of the most filmed mountain bike areas on the planet. As someone does a lot of trail building and maintance I can tell you first hand the film crews certainly do not clean up after themselves.

My wife is president of our local cycling association and she gets contacted by land manager all the time asking if we know anything about the latest trail segment built for a film. (I say segment because they carve 100 feet out of grass land in a nature preserve).

This rather famous shot is on a trail I built. The corner was modified for the shoot. If you can ride like Matt it is a rad corner otherwise it is now a rather awkard one. At first I was rather annoyed about it, but after seeing the video I have spent hours unsuccessfully trying to drag my bars through the turn.
:


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

LMN said:


> Umm no they do not.
> 
> I live in Kamloops BC, one of the most filmed mountain bike areas on the planet. As someone does a lot of trail building and maintance I can tell you first hand the film crews certainly do not clean up after themselves.
> 
> ...


That's great that you have your own anecdote and I have mine. My experience is opposite of yours. So maybe it is crew or locale specific?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tuckerjt07 said:


> That's great that you have your own anecdote and I have mine. My experience is opposite of yours. So maybe it is crew or locale specific?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Maybe. But film crews from around the world come to film in Kamloops. And although it made Kamloops a well known place, for years the local riders had to deal with fall out of the damage they did.

And FYI the trail destruction video was shot in Kamloops.....


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Mr Pig said:


> I guess they must like bomb craters then? Are you suggesting they ignore the hundreds of bomb craters I see but sort skid damage instantly? That doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Yes, virtually all of the trail are one-way. Some of the access roads are two-way and bikes share some gravel roads with cars too but the single-track is all one-way.


 So how many days a year do you do trail work? Member of a mt bike group? For formal, org days I get about 8-10. More on my own for my local stuff, say 4-5 half days, depends on storms and wind damage.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Owned.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

leeboh said:


> So how many days a year do you do trail work?


Is that how you try to obliterate opposing views? If you don't do trail work your opinion means nothing?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Mr Pig said:


> Is that how you try to obliterate opposing views? If you don't do trail work your opinion means nothing?


 Not at all. Your view is valid as any other. Just getting you to try to see MY view. Not riding at a trail center, sculpted one- way riding experience. Or a lift served place where your money goes to upkeep. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Try on forest trail in a state park, volunteer work on your days off, with plenty of sweat involved. Walk the line with the land manager, flag and evaluate for water, vernal pools or some kind of rare plants. Schedule a build day, org the volunteers, hope for good weather, get the tool trailer there, and plan for some lunch/beverages to feed the hungry masses. Moving rocks, digging dirt, clearing duff, chainsaw work, rock work, hauling lumber, standing in mud to clear that brook or wetlands, repeat as needed. Going on 18 years or so for me. Not boasting, just stating some info about how trails get to be a trail here in MA and lots of places in New England and the US. Is a little skid here or there a huge issue? Nope. It's more of about mindset and attitude. Nemba( my mt bike org) has like 5,000 members and 30 chapters that cover most of New England. ( VT has their own thing) Most folks I ride with do some kind of trail stewardship, leading rides, support of many kinds, digging dirt, hosting events, and such. It's my trail, it's their trail, it's whoever worked on it, it's their trail. No one with ownership is going to trash it. Ever. 18 years out I still get to ride some awesome trails, always evaluating,looking at a grade or turn that needs work. Picking up sticks and kicking( clearing) out some drains spring and fall. 99% of the time I carry a 12" folding saw in my pack to cut up downed branches and limbs. So that's my view and experience. Cheers, enjoy the ride. Really that's what its all about. For me, riding and being a good trail steward is what its all about. Yesterdays ride was 2.5 hrs at my local. Cut up 2 branches and stopped to pick up at least 10 branches to clear the trail.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Clearing duff, SHAME ON YOU^^^^^^^^^


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Clearing duff, SHAME ON YOU^^^^^^^^^


Do you do anything USEFUL or just like to criticize everyone?


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## Len Baird (Aug 1, 2017)

I don't really give much of a crap about how other people ride.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Len Baird said:


> I don't really give much of a crap about how other people ride.


Maybe that's the problem, you need to get your panties in a wad about other people like many others on mtbr.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

The laws of physics apply to mtn. A bike tire attempting to slow or change direction will never exert as much force on the tread as a rider moving up hill. While spinning up a very steep section may not throw dirt in your face, it displaces the dirt knobby by knobby. You can watch countless riders roll down a steep section of compacted trail with almost no trace of traffic. Even a back tire skid is superficial. Then watch a climber in a very low gear climb that section. Now only will most meander a widen the impact area, but every block and lug of tire tread will dig. Just the facts. 
Drifting is more impact than a skid. Drifting on 2 wheels is ****ing awesome. Skidding is the correction needed after a rider error. Fun? Yeah, riding bikes is fun.
In a trail network, when there is a completely sustainable climb leading to a single track that mostly descends, in some cases over steep ledges that virtually everyone rides in the same direction, it s directional. 
Do we really need to sign everything?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

DaveVt said:


> The laws of physics apply to mtn. A bike tire attempting to slow or change direction will never exert as much force on the tread as a rider moving up hill. While spinning up a very steep section may not throw dirt in your face, it displaces the dirt knobby by knobby. You can watch countless riders roll down a steep section of compacted trail with almost no trace of traffic. Even a back tire skid is superficial. Then watch a climber in a very low gear climb that section. Now only will most meander a widen the impact area, but every block and lug of tire tread will dig. Just the facts.
> Drifting is more impact than a skid. Drifting on 2 wheels is ****ing awesome. Skidding is the correction needed after a rider error. Fun? Yeah, riding bikes is fun.
> In a trail network, when there is a completely sustainable climb leading to a single track that mostly descends, in some cases over steep ledges that virtually everyone rides in the same direction, it s directional.
> Do we really need to sign everything?


Are you sure about your physics?

A 70kg ride climbing at a constant velocity on a 15 degree slow will exert about 180N of force parallel to the slope The same rider slowing at a rate of 5m/s^2 will exert approximate 350N of force parallel to the slope. (If my math is a bit off it is because doing trig. in my head is difficult).

I do know what your are talking about. A rider coasting downhill experts minimal force parallel to the surface, where as a climbing rider is always exerting force. However, rapid trail wear happens where people are accelerating rapidly (turning, breaking, and perhaps sprinting out of turns).

To argue that a climbing rider does more damage the a descending rider is more than a bit of a reach. I have 25 years of riding in some heavily ridden areas and I have never observed a climbing trail getting "blown out".

However, trail wear happens. It is a fact of life. Fortunately mountain bikers are very passionate about trails and if there is organized trail days people will show up and do the work.

I am a firm believer, ride aggressive, and have fun but do your part and help with trail maintenance.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

No one slows to a stop on a short steep section of trail with good run out and sight lines. Most don t brake or do so very minimally.

Also, no one climbs ay a.consyant velocity. It is always a series of accelerations. A climber is constantly accelerating. Most descendents are feathering brake to maintain speed. 

I also have over 2 decades of experience and over the last 10 have created a trail network from scratch. Some machine build, some hand built. I have watched it happen, do....it does. In particular where a climbing tire meets a small abrupt feature like a root. Many of those roots are polished and black from spin puts on the dh edge where a dh tire will never make contact with it. Go to your favorite short steep trail section and roll down it. Then pedal up it. Assuming you're not intentionally dragging brakes you 'll see what I mean. You can see every pedal stroke represented in the up-tracks. You could roll down it 100 times with almost no trace. Can t climb it once without visible impact.

Point being.....both old and new school riders do their share of damage. No trail short of pavement is sustainable for unlimited traffic without an engaged community of KNOWLEDGABLE trail workers.

Typos....sorry
Fat fingers tiny phone.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Maybe that's the problem, you need to get your panties in a wad about other people like many others on mtbr.


YES!!! Don't knock it till you try it!!!🤗


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

DaveVt said:


> A bike tire attempting to slow or change direction will never exert as much force on the tread as a rider moving up hill. While spinning up a very steep section may not throw dirt in your face, it displaces the dirt knobby by knobby.


Yes it may seem counter-intuitive, but certain climbs wear faster than the same hill side that only sees descents. That is true until riders start allowing rear tire lockup. Here in SoFla the trials get heavy use. I hate to see it when newbies take on a black section and over use the brake until they get a handle on how it's done. Our tech climbs have been slowly eliminated as the managers decide to re-route instead of endless repair.


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## DirtyHun (Jan 9, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> For some folks, that's their thing.
> Seems pretty similar to where it all started to me.
> 
> Mountain biking or not mountain biking?


Having just watched _Klunkerz _(and it is a great film), I think that it is clear that they were mountain biking. That part of one of their courses was definitely a fire road, but some parts of the "Repack" race were a pretty nasty mix of singletrack, runoff channel and bushwhack.

Regarding the tail flick, it sure seems to be as one member pointed out by way of BMX-a bit like downhill skiing. I doubt it's only form; it seems to have some function.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

DaveVt said:


> You've never seen a root create a step in the trail with the down hill side eroded away several inches? Must not have tree roots on your trails.
> 
> I think the cutty or roost is more damaging in terms of physics than a skid. I love the technique and use it where applicable. I also do a lot of trail work and generally fix my own mess.
> 
> If this "new" style is changing your trails, you have too many users and not enough contributors. Trails can sustain this use if the riders are engaged in all aspects of trail use, including trail work.


Lol. Not much trail building experience? It's water, not uphill riders. As water flows down the trail and over the log, it holds on to the log and drops underneath it, causing the dirt underneath to erode.

Don't believe me? Look at any picture of any natural waterfall.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Ken in KC said:


> Not much trail building experience?


Hahaha, you have no idea who yer talking to.

As someone who loves to climb steep grades, I can tell you that when yer laying down watts into every individual pedal stroke, you are basically leaving a dig mark into the trail surface with every one of those pedal strokes. It's like brake jacking uphill. Now add roots and ledge ups into the mix and yer really digging in.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ken in KC said:


> Lol. Not much trail building experience? It's water, not uphill riders. As water flows down the trail and over the log, it holds on to the log and drops underneath it, causing the dirt underneath to erode.
> 
> Don't believe me? Look at any picture of any natural waterfall.


Yep, water over ledges can wreak havoc in a hurry. I'm not discounting DaveVt's account because I'm not there but I've just never noticed any rider caused trail damage on uphills around here and I have seen some on downhills. A little rut and some water = a big rut.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

DaveVt said:


> The laws of physics apply to mtn. A bike tire attempting to slow or change direction will never exert as much force on the tread as a rider moving up hill. While spinning up a very steep section may not throw dirt in your face, it displaces the dirt knobby by knobby. You can watch countless riders roll down a steep section of compacted trail with almost no trace of traffic. Even a back tire skid is superficial. Then watch a climber in a very low gear climb that section. Now only will most meander a widen the impact area, but every block and lug of tire tread will dig. Just the facts.
> Drifting is more impact than a skid. Drifting on 2 wheels is ****ing awesome. Skidding is the correction needed after a rider error. Fun? Yeah, riding bikes is fun.
> In a trail network, when there is a completely sustainable climb leading to a single track that mostly descends, in some cases over steep ledges that virtually everyone rides in the same direction, it s directional.
> Do we really need to sign everything?


Incorrect, drifting, a true drift, has much less impact than a skid. A drift is due to loss of traction. Almost counter-intuitive but a skid is actually a result of too much traction.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Hahaha, you have no idea who yer talking to.
> 
> As someone who loves to climb steep grades, I can tell you that when yer laying down watts into every individual pedal stroke, you are basically leaving a dig mark into the trail surface with every one of those pedal strokes. It's like brake jacking uphill. Now add roots and ledge ups into the mix and yer really digging in.


I skid uphill.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

DaveVt said:


> No one slows to a stop on a short steep section of trail with good run out and sight lines. Most don t brake or do so very minimally.
> 
> Also, no one climbs ay a.consyant velocity. It is always a series of accelerations. A climber is constantly accelerating. Most descendents are feathering brake to maintain speed.
> 
> ...


As I said I am aware what you are saying. I know you are also missing a whole lot of details if you actually want to say "Physics".

I agree a rider coasting down a trail without using their brakes does minimal wear to the trail, and a rider climbing the trail same trail does leave marks. Now is the climbing rider actually wearing out the trail? No, they are not.

As I said I have we have some very high traffic trails, in the summer 200-400 riders per day, climbs that are 10 years old have never had to be touched. The DH trails, definately need some maintance, once a year we have to in and do some work. And nobody rides up our DH trails, too steep and a good way to get killed.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> I skid uphill.


I drift uphill


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> I drift uphill


When going up hill I drag my brakes and create braking bumps.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

LMN said:


> When going up hill I drag my brakes and create braking bumps.


I pedal downhill and drift with the front, simultaneously creating ruts with each pedal stroke and wear with the front wheel. Now that's some physics for ya!


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

LMN said:


> When going up hill I drag my brakes and create braking bumps.


I drag my brakes uphill for a better workout. If I'm feeling mosochistic I'll wear a borrowed camelback pack, swap for a borrowed droppah post and get my drag brake free rider freak on up the climbs.

Ok back to shoveling snow....😐


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I drift uphill


E-bike?


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

HacksawReynolds said:


> I drag my brakes uphill for a better workout. If I'm feeling mosochistic I'll wear a borrowed camelback pack, swap for a borrowed droppah post and get my drag brake free rider freak on up the climbs.
> 
> Ok back to shoveling snow....


I thought I recognized you! Subtle use of the word "drag" gave it away though. This explains so much.









Ok back to the thread....


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> I drift uphill


Rank amateur, I skid in mid air.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

noapathy said:


> I thought I recognized you! Subtle use of the word "drag" gave it away though.


I've never neg-repped anyone before, but posting that photo is almost neg-rep worthy! I'm going to go bleach my eyes now, thank you very little!


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## demonlarry (Jun 20, 2011)

twd953 said:


> Rank amateur, I skid in mid air.


Thanks a lot...

I can feel the wind buffeting on my favorite trails now.

no mid air skids...


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yep, water over ledges can wreak havoc in a hurry. I'm not discounting DaveVt's account because I'm not there but I've just never noticed any rider caused trail damage on uphills around here and I have seen some on downhills. A little rut and some water = a big rut.


I'm discounting it because it's mostly ridiculous. If it's a small root, you're rolling over it and any force is applied against the tire knobs and root. If it's a larger root, you're performing some variation of a J-Hop to get your rear wheel up on the root before you apply force.

If you're spinning out at the root vs. speeding up and gaining momentum to roll over it, you're doing it wrong.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Incorrect, drifting, a true drift, has much less impact than a skid. A drift is due to loss of traction. Almost counter-intuitive but a skid is actually a result of too much traction.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


To me a drift is a skid on a rolling tire vs static. The tire is biting. More energy I think would result in more impact...tough one to really say.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

DaveVt said:


> To me a drift is a skid on a rolling tire vs static. The tire is biting. More energy I think would result in more impact...tough one to really say.


Except your thought is completely off base. A drifting tire is not biting. Sure it may displace detritus but it is not biting into the hard pack . A skid on the other hand is a result of biting into the soil to the point it has dug up enough soil that the tread is clogged and is now plowing the ground.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Ken in KC said:


> I'm discounting it because it's mostly ridiculous. If it's a small root, you're rolling over it and any force is applied against the tire knobs and root. If it's a larger root, you're performing some variation of a J-Hop to get your rear wheel up on the root before you apply force.
> 
> If you're spinning out at the root vs. speeding up and gaining momentum to roll over it, you're doing it wrong.


This.

I'm not as smooth as Christopher Blevins, but this is how you should get over large roots and rocks whenever possible. Speed is your friend.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BeB-h3shE9A/


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

noapathy said:


> Ok back to the thread....


You mean, back to your couch....


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Except your thought is completely off base. A drifting tire is not biting. Sure it may displace detritus but it is not biting into the hard pack . A skid on the other hand is a result of biting into the soil to the point it has dug up enough soil that the tread is clogged and is now plowing the ground.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


you tell em tiger!???


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Except your thought is completely off base. A drifting tire is not biting. Sure it may displace detritus but it is not biting into the hard pack . A skid on the other hand is a result of biting into the soil to the point it has dug up enough soil that the tread is clogged and is now plowing the ground.


Ummm...unless you're doing twd's mid-air drift there's a tire sliding across dirt. What you call "biting" is just friction. How much depends on the rider weight, speed, soil composition, tread pattern and probably a few other factors. But it's never zero. On hard packed stuff it's not much. On soft, loamy surfaces it can scoop out quite a bit, especially if a few endurobros decide to be extra cool that day and do it on every turn. But hey, it got them extra youtube cred so who cares, right?


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Cue in the "Masterdebater"


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

noapathy said:


> Ummm...unless you're doing twd's mid-air drift there's a tire sliding across dirt. What you call "biting" is just friction. How much depends on the rider weight, speed, soil composition, tread pattern and probably a few other factors. But it's never zero. On hard packed stuff it's not much. On soft, loamy surfaces it can scoop out quite a bit, especially if a few endurobros decide to be extra cool that day and do it on every turn. But hey, it got them extra youtube cred so who cares, right?


It still does not approach the friction level of a tire actively engaged in braking. Of course the level is not zero. Otherwise we could achieve perpetual motion. If it was operating with the same friction level, with no brake, the rider would struggle to stay upright. A sideload being resisted as effectively as braking while still sliding would result in a low side as soon as a tiny slip occurred. Likewise biting that hard in mid-slide a high side is inevitable.

Yes, one looks dramatic, especially in loose soil. However, it's long term impacts range from none to small. Those "dirt showers" are not moving dirt that is significant to a well built trail. Soil of that composition will migrate just as readily due to wind and water.

The issue occurs when people lock the rear brake to emulate what they see. That is poor riding.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

HacksawReynolds said:


> You mean, back to your couch....


Just because I let you crash on my couch doesn't mean you can trash the place. #endurotrash


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> It still does not approach the friction level of a tire actively engaged in braking. If it was operating with the same friction level, with no brake, the rider would struggle to stay upright. A sideload being resisted that effectively while still sliding would result in a low side as soon as a tiny slip occurred. Likewise biting that hard in mid-slide a high side is inevitable.
> 
> Yes, one looks dramatic, especially in loose soil. However, it's long term impacts range from none to small. Those "dirt showers" are not moving dirt that is significant to a well built trail. Soil of that composition will migrate just as readily due to wind and water.
> 
> The issue occurs when people lock the rear brake to emulate what they see. That is poor riding.


That last one is true at least, and I'm pretty sure that's how this thread got started in the first place.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

noapathy said:


> That last one is true at least, and I'm pretty sure that's how this thread got started in the first place.


The whole post is true.

Let's try this another way. One, a drift, occurs because the knobs are not doing their job and effectively gripping the trail. The other, a skid, occurs because the knobs are performing their job so well that they cannot clean themselves of the dirt they dig up while gripping.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> The whole post is true.
> 
> Let's try this another way. One, a drift, occurs because the knobs are not doing their job and effectively gripping the trail. The other, a skid, occurs because the knobs are performing their job so well that they cannot clean themselves of the dirt they dig up while gripping.


I know there's a difference. No matter how you explain it, the tires are still grabbing dirt. It's just a matter of degree, agreed? Done on purpose, both can be harmful (and definitely disrespecful to the trail crews).

As far as a skid, I always thought it's more about putting more weight on the rear tire than dirt clearing, but it could be both.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

noapathy said:


> I know there's a difference. No matter how you explain it, the tires are still grabbing dirt. It's just a matter of degree, agreed?
> 
> As far as a skid, I always thought it's more about putting more weight on the rear tire than dirt clearing, but it could be both.


No, it's the type of displacement. Sliding over the top and displacing detritus is not the same as digging into a base layer. Rear weight bias plays a roll in the skid but what causes the marks is the build up and subsequent displacement.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> No, it's the type of displacement. Sliding over the top and displacing detritus is not the same as digging into a base layer. Rear weight bias plays a roll in the skid but what causes the marks is the build up and subsequent displacement.


I think that's about half right, but I still believe it has a lot more to do with the surface than what type of skid. I can bias my weight onto my front wheel and the rear will skid forever and not do real damage. But whatever...I tire of this nonsense. It's still not good for the trail.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Oh but the Masterdebater will get his last word, just you wait!


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

noapathy said:


> I think that's about half right, but I still believe it has a lot more to do with the surface than what type of skid. I can bias my weight onto my front wheel and the rear will skid forever and not do real damage. But whatever...I tire of this nonsense. It's still not good for the trail.


Exactly, unless you are in deep powder you're not going to be drifting with a rearward bias. In fact, your example of weighting the front is one of the key base concepts of a cutty, minus the rear brake of course.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Exactly, unless you are in deep powder you're not going to be drifting with a rearward bias. In fact, your example of weighting the front is one of the key base concepts of a cutty, minus the rear brake of course.


Yep. That's why I've been saying stuff like "it depends" or "not always". Everything has an effect is all I'm saying and when you have a train of 20 endurobros in training a little bit adds up pretty quick.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

noapathy said:


> Yep. That's why I've been saying stuff like "it depends" or "not always". Everything has an effect is all I'm saying and when you have a train of 20 endurobros in training a little bit adds up pretty quick.


Except when you use the term drift it really doesn't as that is executed a specific way. What you are lamenting is a sideways skid a completely separate act.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Except when you use the term drift it really doesn't as that is executed a specific way. What you are lamenting is a sideways skid a completely separate act.


Uh, sure. :lol:


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Except your thought is completely off base. A drifting tire is not biting. Sure it may displace detritus but it is not biting into the hard pack . A skid on the other hand is a result of biting into the soil to the point it has dug up enough soil that the tread is clogged and is now plowing the ground.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I don't think a tire has to be full of dirt to skid. Come ride here on some hard pack clay
and skid all you want. Your tread won't be clogged, it will be skipping across the surface. I stick with what I said. A drift is a skid on a rolling tire. It has the potential to displace more dirt, organic or mineral, if not compacted.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

noapathy said:


> Uh, sure. :lol:


See what I mean? Lol.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

LMN said:


> As I said I am aware what you are saying. I know you are also missing a whole lot of details if you actually want to say "Physics".
> 
> I agree a rider coasting down a trail without using their brakes does minimal wear to the trail, and a rider climbing the trail same trail does leave marks. Now is the climbing rider actually wearing out the trail? No, they are not.
> 
> As I said I have we have some very high traffic trails, in the summer 200-400 riders per day, climbs that are 10 years old have never had to be touched. The DH trails, definately need some maintance, once a year we have to in and do some work. And nobody rides up our DH trails, too steep and a good way to get killed.


You contradict yourself. Marks are dirt moved....the definition of erosion. Climbs built to IMBA standards, benched dirt sidewalk type trails will obviously wear better. The type of trails IMBA would not approve of, trails that break the rules but are sustainable for limited use are my favorite to build and ride. I have watched them burn in then blow out for my entire life as a trail rider. Many blown out spots are because while pedaling, users ride around tread features. My primitive trails are routed to avoid steep climbing unless on rock, but do include steep DH sections that are short and have good run-out and sight lines to encourage not braking. As people have started riding them in reverse, what-are-now short steep climbs have slowly widened and eroded.

Saying that your specific trails don't erode on the climbs is great. Sounds like you have a nice easy climb with good soil types. Saying it doesn't happen on MTB trails is just incorrect. I could give you a very long list of trails in my area of Vt that are climbs, that are horribly eroded, and not just from water, in may cases this erosion is happening where the run off is not flowing.

In the end, complaining and trying to control how other behave is a fail. It remindes me of the battles we used to have back in the late 90s early 2000 trying to get people to not ride during very wet cycles. Useless. In the end we needed to just keep improving the trail because trying to chase down every rider with a muddy bike sucked, and made us sound like dicks.

I agree 100 percent with the images the industry and other marketeers put forward. In the mean time "Let the Children Play".....and go do some trail work.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

DaveVt said:


> I don't think a tire has to be full of dirt to skid. Come ride here on some hard pack clay
> and skid all you want. Your tread won't be clogged, it will be skipping across the surface. I stick with what I said. A drift is a skid on a rolling tire. It has the potential to displace more dirt, organic or mineral, if not compacted.


True, about the clay which is why it really isn't pertinent to this discussion beyond the fact that that is how a drifting tire behaves as well.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Skidding always happens during braking, drifting never does. Is that so hard?


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Skidding always happens during braking, drifting never does. Is that so hard?


Exactly my understanding, and both are affected by weight bias. I run a skinny/fast tire on the rear so it's critical I get my weight correct whether I'm climbing/descending or in a flat turn. It can be a fine line in those turns, forward enough to keep that tire in traction , but the rear is quick to step-out if I go too far.
Addressing the point of this Thread, I know I could do something better if I feel a skid, or if that rear step-out slows me too much. If however, both tires drift in a corner it is so much fun I have no regrets and will look for that combination of speed/balance/trail condition so I can do it again. We don't have much loose loam around here, mostly hard pack.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Holy crap you guys are dorks.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Holy crap you guys are dorks.


Indeed.

I wish we could say, "end of discussion," but I'm sure someone will want to continue debating this...


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

I finally got my drift in. Faster corner, sped up. Hard pack snow/ice under 1 inch of soft snow, totally drifted off trail on my left cheek/thigh. Thanks much.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

leeboh said:


> I finally got my drift in. Faster corner, sped up. Hard pack snow/ice under 1 inch of soft snow, totally drifted off trail on my left cheek/thigh. Thanks much.


Sick! I hope you Go-Pro'd it!:cornut:


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Holy crap you guys are dorks.


Thanks for caring!
Well aware of the pathetic nature of writing about riding instead of riding. I'd rather be riding for sure, but at least I'm not reading then complaining.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jim c said:


> t at least I'm not reading then complaining.


Uh....actually, yes you are. And it appears to be your only 'contribution' to this thread.

Go back to your glass house and pipe down. See if you can find a sense of humor on your way.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> See if you can find a sense of humor on your way.


You should follow your own advice, jim c's post seemed pretty lighthearted to me.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> You should follow your own advice, jim c's post seemed pretty lighthearted to me.


So was mine, obviously.

"I don't like when people make posts to complain about posts. Think I'm going to make a post to complain about that..."

Dorks. All of you.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> So was mine, obviously.


Not so obvious as jim's, but I'm a $hitty writer too so probably my posts also come off as a little mean spirited sometimes, unintentionally of course.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Dorks. All of you.


You mean all of *us.*


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> You mean all of *us.*


Touche!


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

skids or no skids, drifts or no drifts, all i know is that i love to ride my bikes and make trails...


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

There are a couple of MTB sayings that come to mind with this thread-"Ride it- don't slide it" and "The trail is "blown out". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the relationship.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> Holy crap you guys are dorks.


So.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

Complaining? I thought I was bench-racing! Of course I am posting in a thread that started with a complaint, soo there I go... It's drying up around here after the rain we had for NewYear and the corners are getting looser. On my ride last night I was looking for the edge of traction in a few spots where if you lean it enough you can ride it out. GOTTA LOVE IT, but now I'm crowing; when I finished at sunset it was 59* f.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

slapheadmofo said:


> Holy crap you guys are dorks.


Exactly my take as I was reading down this.:lol::lol::lol:ut:

Skids = brake induced.
Drifts = momentum induced.

Hello! Anybody home? 

Tread clogged with dirt enhances both to happen but does not always have to be for it to happen.

Tires pumped up too full or composition of dirt or combination there of.


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## scaryfast (Apr 23, 2004)

Sorry, not sorry.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

scaryfast said:


> Sorry, not sorry.


Being indecisive would drive me crazy. Just choose a cereal and be done with it. >  = sarcasm.


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## scaryfast (Apr 23, 2004)

LOL. I tried to come back with something witty but being indecisive I came back empty handed.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

scaryfast said:


> lol. I tried to come back with something witty but being indecisive i came back empty handed.


lol


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

scaryfast said:


> LOL. I tried to come back with something witty but being indecisive I came back empty handed.


Cold feet, no sweetheart (or blow the turn, whichever's appropriate).


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)




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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Smithhammer said:


>


TuckerNWA!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^lol😂


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

tealy said:


> This isn't a question with a simple answer.
> 
> The "cutty" or "flick" is not inherently bad or good. It's a tool in the skills tool box that works in certain situations. For some rider's, like Sam Hill, it's a default turning style. Is it overused? Totally. Is it unnecessarily accentuated with the back brake. Absolutely.
> 
> ...


I would say that's the best post of the bunch. All those slow motion videos of dirt rooster tails seem to glorify the technique.


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