# Peace breaks out in CA eBike dispute



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I had a nice chat today with the Santa Monica Mtns Conservancy ranger today about my fat eBike: he looked it over and told me to have a nice ride. A few minutes later I was at the gate to the Hub Trail where two National Park Service Rangers were unlocking the gate to pass their pickup through. The one outside looked at my eBike and asked: "Class 1?", I said "yes" and he said: "you're legal, go have fun!"

A bit later at the Hub, a crew of MBA volunteers in their yellow jerseys checked out the eBike and then made some suggestions of fun single track I could try later.

It looks like in CA and in some National Parks the war is over. 


Let the Healing begin.......:thumbsup:


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

Why do you need a motor on your bicycle again?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Isn't the Hub a dirt road?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

MTBMILES said:


> Why do you need a motor on your bicycle again?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 'Cause it's fun.....


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> Isn't the Hub a dirt road?


 Yes, that's why the MBA folks were telling me how to find the single track, it's all new to me. All of the parkland up there is under the same two jurisdictions: NPS and SM Mtns Conservancy, they seem to have decided to follow the same rules as in the new state eBike law that goes into effect on Jan 1.


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

I guess you're just lazier than most?


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Good for you. Now doesn't that just feel all warm and fuzzy inside? Warm and fuzzy? Warm? Fuzzy? Yeah? Good. Now you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Inside. In. Side.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

MTBMILES said:


> I guess you're just lazier than most?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Who knows, maybe? But what does that have to do with eBike access to public lands in CA anyway? Did trail access used to be some sort of phys ed exam?


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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

Yay, you ride a moped. Want a cookie? Yes trail access is a phys ed exam. Your payoff for working your ass off to get up a hill is the trail ride down.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

If they are not banned or limited, then Woodland is good to go.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Rock Surf said:


> Yay, you ride a moped. Want a cookie? Yes trail access is a phys ed exam. Your payoff for working your ass off to get up a hill is the trail ride down.


 I bet you say that to all the DH bikers at the top of the chair lift.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

WoodlandHills said:


> I bet you say that to all the DH bikers at the top of the chair lift.


Ignore the negative Nancies. They just be jealous. They hate us cuz they anus. Guys like you and me gotta stick together. Don't let anyone tell you that an e-bike it not a real mountain bike. Sure we are lazy and don't like to pedal a bicycle and are total pus$ies, but we are having just as much fun as the next guy. Fun is what it's all about. Heck, just the other day I went and ran 22miles through town...on my Segway, not everyone can do that. Ride on brotha, ride on!


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Such tender fee fees, such fragile egos......

It looks like someone needs a hug! Poor widdle boo boo, you're still my big boy even if the girlie man on the eBike did pass you on the long hill...... Mommie will wait for you at the top of the mountain with Grammy and her eBike club from the Senior Center, don't worry.

Seriously, you people need to get over yourselves: this is not private property were are talking about and it is definitely not YOUR private property! It is public land that you need to learn how to share with your fellow citizens.


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> my fat eBike


Good God. Why.

(I don't really need an answer)


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

the-one1 said:


> Ignore the negative Nancies. They just be jealous. They hate us cuz they anus. Guys like you and me gotta stick together. Don't let anyone tell you that an e-bike it not a real mountain bike. Sure we are lazy and don't like to pedal a bicycle and are total pus$ies, but we are having just as much fun as the next guy. Fun is what it's all about. Heck, just the other day I went and ran 22miles through town...on my Segway, not everyone can do that. Ride on brotha, ride on!


Sweet! That made me smile.

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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

WoodlandHills said:


> I bet you say that to all the DH bikers at the top of the chair lift.


Riding a chairlift at a DH resort and riding a moped to the top of a hill are two different things. Nice try though. What ever it takes to fool yourself into thinking you're an actual MTBer.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Rock Surf said:


> .. What ever it takes to fool yourself into thinking you're an actual MTBer.


WoodlandHills is a cyclist as is anyone who pedals. Elitist exclusionists have been the bane of cycling from the very start with petty snobberies.

If you want to be a "real" cyclist then presumably you will do as Henri Desgrange (the originator of the Tour de France):

_"I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting soft. Come on, fellows. Let's say that the test was a fine demonstration--for our grandparents! As for me, give me a fixed gear!"_


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Velobike said:


> WoodlandHills is a cyclist as is anyone who pedals. Elitist exclusionists have been the bane of cycling from the very start with petty snobberies.
> 
> If you want to be a "real" cyclist then presumably you will do as Henri Desgrange (the originator of the Tour de France):
> 
> _"I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting soft. Come on, fellows. Let's say that the test was a fine demonstration--for our grandparents! As for me, give me a fixed gear!"_


Good point. Along with gears, what about killing recumbents, Y framed bikes, anything that is not of diamond frame design. If you want real purity, where are the penny farthings? A pedal assist is harmless. I don't need one myself and won't ride one until I need to. But why all the heat over bike type? When I need one, I would wisely avoid trails for more practical 'roads' that would get me out and about.

The only real progress being made on bikes has more to do with over-sizing every dimension of componentry and refinement of existing parts. There really is no revolution taking place and E-bikes hardly threaten anyone who chooses to ride their bike by their own means.

Eric


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

Oh no, the snobbery is spreading from roadies. We need to quarantine.


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

syl3 said:


> Oh no, the snobbery is spreading from roadies. We need to quarantine.


As an Ex roadie, the major difference that I encountered was that there was no snobbery amongst the MTB crowd. I found that the MTB'rs didn't make distinctions because if we rode a trail and we went through a mud section, we came out the same. Also, they loved to have fun more than being competitive. They like to conquer an obstacle and perfect technical bike skills. They would stop and help if a problem arose.

I hope those tenants still hold.

Eric


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

EatsDirt said:


> Good God. Why.


To haul the beer?


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Eric Malcolm said:


> As an Ex roadie, the major difference that I encountered was that there was no snobbery amongst the MTB crowd. I found that the MTB'rs didn't make distinctions because if we rode a trail and we went through a mud section, we came out the same. Also, they loved to have fun more than being competitive. They like to conquer an obstacle and perfect technical bike skills. They would stop and help if a problem arose.
> 
> I hope those tenants still hold.
> 
> Eric


Not anymore. Most are cool but there are many willing to tell others how to spend their money. Personally I see ebikes being a small niche. It's a expensive, potentially dangerous outdoor activity which still requires some physical activity. The expense and easing of effort is selective for our age group and I don't know of too many of us lining up risk injury, at least on the trails around here. Just because I can buy a Z06 doesn't mean I'm capable of driving it in the environmental context it's designed for.

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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Eric Malcolm said:


> Good point. Along with gears, what about killing recumbents, Y framed bikes, anything that is not of diamond frame design. If you want real purity, where are the penny farthings? A pedal assist is harmless. I don't need one myself and won't ride one until I need to. But why all the heat over bike type? When I need one, I would wisely avoid trails for more practical 'roads' that would get me out and about.
> 
> The only real progress being made on bikes has more to do with over-sizing every dimension of componentry and refinement of existing parts. There really is no revolution taking place and E-bikes hardly threaten anyone who chooses to ride their bike by their own means.
> 
> Eric


It's simple, motor vs no motor.


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

What does this have to do with being over 50?


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

I have no opinion on the ebike thing but I find it funny that the ones talking **** would never do so face to face and then call the ebiker a pu$$y.


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## cbrossman (Mar 23, 2004)

While I am not fond of eBikes on the trail, I do see the hypocrisy in that opinion, just like I can't ride my mountain bike in the wilderness because it is mechanical.

I am not at all against dirt bikes, they do an awful lot of trail maintenance locally with downed trees, and most riders I know are also bikers. But I have to wonder, where is the line between an off road motorcycle and an eBike? 
If dirt bikes are not allowed on a trail, why should an eBike be allowed?

The same can be said of bike paths. Here in Durango, Segways are not allowed on the paths, presumably because they are motorized. Should eBikes be prohibited as well?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

cbrossman said:


> ...But I have to wonder, where is the line between an off road motorcycle and an eBike?..


Various legislations will have their different rules, but the fundamental difference is a throttle. An electric motored bike with a throttle is effectively a motorbike. An assistive e-bike only applies power when pressure is applied to the pedals and usually has no more than 250 watts, and it has no throttle.


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## cbrossman (Mar 23, 2004)

Velobike said:


> Various legislations will have their different rules, but the fundamental difference is a throttle. An electric motored bike with a throttle is effectively a motorbike. An assistive e-bike only applies power when pressure is applied to the pedals and usually has no more than 250 watts, and it has no throttle.


Still feels fuzzy to me. There are lawn mowers that only move forward when the pedal is pressed. I don't know if you can apply different levels of power. And what about an eBike that has 251 watts.
Not trying to be a smartass (which is sort of natural for me), I know you get my point.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

cbrossman said:


> If dirt bikes are not allowed on a trail, why should an eBike be allowed?
> 
> The same can be said of bike paths. Here in Durango, Segways are not allowed on the paths, presumably because they are motorized. Should eBikes be prohibited as well?


I agree, too fuzzy. USA is a land of law breakers and from 5 feet away nobody can tell the difference between an 'assistive' ebike and an electric motorcycle. Battery and motor technology improving at a rapid rate so what is impossible now will be old hat in a few years.

I also think they should be kept off of bike/walking only paths unless their top speed is limited to the lowest common average, say around 12-15mph. The whole point of pedestrian paths is to create a safe, stress free environment void of race car ya-yas.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

BuickGN said:


> I have no opinion on the ebike thing but I find it funny that the ones talking **** would never do so face to face and then call the ebiker a pu$$y.


I generally avoid calling people names, but I'd have the same comments for you in person as I do here.

My beliefs don't change with my mode of communication.


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> I agree, too fuzzy. USA is a land of law breakers and from 5 feet away nobody can tell the difference between an 'assistive' ebike and an electric motorcycle. Battery and motor technology improving at a rapid rate so what is impossible now will be old hat in a few years.
> 
> I also think they should be kept off of bike/walking only paths unless their top speed is limited to the lowest common average, say around 12-15mph. The whole point of pedestrian paths is to create a safe, stress free environment void of race car ya-yas.


All of the bikes I tested in Germany all cut out - in terms of the pedal assist - at 15.5 mph (25 kilometers per hour). The bike/walking paths there are full of eBikes and in the 4 months of riding I did covering miles and miles of trail there was nothing unsafe about the amount of trail traffic. Germans all have bells on their bikes and were very confused when I called out - in German of course, as it's not normal protocol there to do that. I ended up buying a cheap bell to "fit in". That being said, 97% of my riding was on my own personal road bike, the 4 separate days during the 4 months I was there, I tested the eBikes a bit on bike paths, but mainly up in the mountains on fire roads and dirt trails. I go faster on my road bike than I did on any of the eBikes on the bike paths were able to propel me.

I routinely ride my road bike in the 16 - 22 mph average on the bike/walking only paths using proper trail etiquette of calling out if coming up on a walker/runner/cyclist I want to pass while riding my road bike. Obviously, while doing top end intervals and really pushing the pace for training, higher speeds are used, but one must be safe when doing that on a trail used by many. Actually, the most unsafe issue I face on the bike/walking paths are trail users who have earbuds or headphones on while exercising who do not hear you calling out - or the ringing of a bell.

I could see certain applications quite useful for the pedal assist - on a bike as a parent pulling a trailer or hitchhiker with a kid to help with the starts and on the hills being one. Been there done that many years ago and remember the strain on my knees at the time. Using the bike to haul groceries or purchases or office "stuff" while commuting to and from work being another. In terms of dirt trails - although I have no need for one for riding and training - I would love to have one to help out when I am doing trail work (which I do a lot of) to haul gear and help me get around the trail system when fatigued by all of the work.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

And here I thought the crusty geezers in this forum would have more sympathy.


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

Phillbo said:


> What does this have to do with being over 50?


This.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Glide the Clyde said:


> And here I thought the crusty geezers in this forum would have more sympathy.


For your laziness?

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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> For your laziness?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Sure, why not.


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## OldGringo (Oct 2, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> I generally avoid calling people names, but I'd have the same comments for you in person as I do here.
> 
> My beliefs don't change with my mode of communication.


I'm with the Ranger and will add that what I have to say does not change based on my proximity to the person I'm saying it to.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BruceBrown said:


> All of the bikes I tested in Germany all cut out - in terms of the pedal assist - at 15.5 mph (25 kilometers per hour). The bike/walking paths there are full of eBikes and in the 4 months of riding I did covering miles and miles of trail there was nothing unsafe about the amount of trail traffic.


I'm sure it has the potential to work fine in most situations, I am just pointing out how it could also be potentially damaging. Most of the ebikes I've read about top out at around 20mph, not blazing fast but faster than the average speed on most bicycle/pedestrian only trails. Models already exist that double or quadruple the power of those machines (and look nearly identical) and I would suggest that a healthy portion of Americans would choose those options over the lower powered ones, and available power and battery life will only increase over the years.

Cities like Durango are awesome because of the bicycle and pedestrian infrastructures, and one of the reasons they're so great is because of the relaxed, family friendly pace of them. I believe ebikes will prove to be incredibly popular in the near future and I hope the legal decisions being made now regarding them will be thoughtful enough to preserve the best parts about motor-less infrastructure, which for me is that they're motor free.

They don't belong in the wilderness IMHO. I don't mind being relegated to hiking in places like Arches Monument, Grand Canyon, etc, so I don't think it should be such a big deal for ebikes to be excluded from many mtb accessible trails.


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## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

cbrossman said:


> The same can be said of bike paths. Here in Durango, Segways are not allowed on the paths, presumably because they are motorized. Should eBikes be prohibited as well?


I agree and on top of that I've almost been run down by Segway riding security idiots in malls a couple of times. Fat idiots that need to walk... 
The kids in my neighborhood with electric scooters already copy mom and dads road rage behavior as well. 
Those little scooters go at least 25mph.
The examples of crappy behavior with electric transportation are already all over the place.


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## cbrossman (Mar 23, 2004)

I extended this conversation with a friend who is anti eBikes. His view is simple; if it has a motor, it should only be allowed where motorized vehicles are allowed.
OK, I get it, simple, easy (or easier) to enforce, less grey area.

Yet for the overall health of the planet, I would rather have 10 eBikes on trails and path, used for commuting, shopping trips, etc and 10 less cars on the road.
Maybe a rule like this: you can have an eBike *or* a car, but not both


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## OldGringo (Oct 2, 2015)

cbrossman said:


> I extended this conversation with a friend who is anti eBikes. His view is simple; if it has a motor, it should only be allowed where motorized vehicles are allowed.
> OK, I get it, simple, easy (or easier) to enforce, less grey area.
> 
> Yet for the overall health of the planet, I would rather have 10 eBikes on trails and path, used for commuting, shopping trips, etc and 10 less cars on the road.
> Maybe a rule like this: you can have an eBike *or* a car, but not both


This is a MTB forum, so I'm guessing almost nobody cares if e-bikes proliferate anywhere off of MTB trails. City streets, designated e-bike pathways, country jeep, motorcycle trails, logging roads? All for it.


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## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

OldGringo said:


> This is a MTB forum, so I'm guessing almost nobody cares if e-bikes proliferate anywhere off of MTB trails. City streets, designated e-bike pathways, country jeep, motorcycle trails, logging roads? All for it.


This^


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

OldGringo said:


> This is a MTB forum, so I'm guessing almost nobody cares if e-bikes proliferate anywhere off of MTB trails. City streets, designated e-bike pathways, country jeep, motorcycle trails, logging roads? All for it.


Yup. I think they're awesome for transportation, any butt that moves from a car seat to a ebike seat is a win IMO.

There isn't a visible distinction between different classes now in the early days of ebikes, it's only going to get worse as ebike tech advances. If it's got a motor, it can go where motorized travel is allowed is the only sensible way to control access. If municipalities want to allow them on their bike paths, it's up to them.


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

What's the electrical equivalent sound for "braap"?


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

It's a really crappy sound as I've heard it a few times.
If you love your Ebike I'm sure it's a wonderful sound.


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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

net wurker said:


> What's the electrical equivalent sound for "braap"?


Derpity Derp Derp


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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

cbrossman said:


> I extended this conversation with a friend who is anti moped. His view is simple; if it has a motor, it should only be allowed where motorized vehicles are allowed.
> OK, I get it, simple, easy (or easier) to enforce, less grey area.
> 
> Yet for the overall health of the planet, I would rather have 10 mopeds on trails and path, used for commuting, shopping trips, etc and 10 less cars on the road.
> Maybe a rule like this: you can have an Moped *or* a car, but not both


fify :thumbsup:


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

How about "the guy with the ebike hauls the beer"?


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

Too the mall.... Who goes to a mall anymore?


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## OldGringo (Oct 2, 2015)

NEMBA asks IMBA to clarify position on electric bikes - Mtbr.com


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

on the plus side all the sierra club folks are also electric car ebike aficionados (save the environment, low carbon etc). The tide for bikes in parks can change if they come on board.

ebikes allow lazier people to ride, which means more riders, which means more political pressure to open trails.


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## TheUnknownRider (Oct 2, 2015)

net wurker said:


> What's the electrical equivalent sound for "braap"?


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