# Platform vs cage pedals...



## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

hello; i keep reading that platform pedals provide more grip than cage type...and i am trying to understand why? is it as simple as there being more surface area on the pedal?

with that said i have seen many recommendations for the wellgo MG1's. can you suggest any other bargain pedals for me? weight is not so much as a concern for me...i would rather have them be more rugged.

thanks!

*8/1/2011 update:*
ended up picking up some forte convert pedals from a local shop (Performance Bicycle) this weekend. I was surprised on how much of a difference it made compared to the factory cage pedals as far as grip...I got to spend a few hours on a trail with em sunday morning.









https://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1085037_-1___


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## ckropp (Jun 20, 2007)

clipless


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## Heavy Fluid (Mar 31, 2011)

I don't recommend cage at all for off road use. Either platform, or as mentioned above, clipless.


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

lol...i just abandoned the clipless notion.

i just started riding tight single track with lots of obstacles....which include lots of oppertunities to bail...and the occational crash where i don't get a chance to bail. i have already been thrown over my handlebars and tossed sideways off the bike in the last two outings.

call me stubborn...but i don't want to re-learn how to eject from my bike.


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

Urbansniper said:


> lol...i just abandoned the clipless notion.
> 
> i just started riding tight single track with lots of obstacles....which include lots of oppertunities to bail...and the occational crash where i don't get a chance to bail. i have already been thrown over my handlebars and tossed sideways off the bike in the last two outings.
> 
> call me stubborn...but i don't want to re-learn how to eject from my bike.


flats fer sure....

the clips (cages) are a bugger to get your feet in since they flip over...striking rocks/roots/squirrels causing general havoc and eventually injury

which we all know leads to tourette's type of language scaring other trail users...and that gives us all a bad name....


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## chilly79 (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes it just comes down to surface area. Cage pedals basically just have the grip around the perimeter but platforms are wider and have grip in the middle as well. They are just better than cage pedals. 
+1 for Clipless though.


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

i am resisting the clipless empire as of right now...mabye something i would like to try later. 

but for now i ride with a mixed skill level group...and there are frequent stops at inconvenient places (terrain/incline/decline) to unclip and clip back in. 

singletrack trail we ride also includes plenty of tree roots, inclines and declines which to me seems pretty technical...so as a novice, i have my fair share of bails. 

when i get decent enough in skill level to ride most of the trails without frequent stops...i will re-consider clipless


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

It's the pined platforms that work so well. You can change the size of the pins or remove them all together. Pinned platforms paired with a flat style, like a skate or basketball shoe, or even better some 5.10's.
It'll be hard to find a set of pedals that match MG1 for their price. Atomlabs, and Straightline makes some nice stuff too taht are reasonable, but you can go throu 2 sets of MG1 for the same price. I currently have Atomlabs Pimplite and like em. I also have MG1 on another bike and they've lasted plenty long.
Don't wanna start a hole nother clipless/platform debate but, have been riding clipless for years, still do, and while they have their advantages, a good platform with the right type shoes are still my fav.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Heavy Fluid said:


> I don't recommend cage at all for off road use. Either platform, or as mentioned above, clipless.


Agreed. I don't see any reason to use cages on a trail.

Flat pedals with good pins are key, as are shoes with a flat grippy surface (i.e. FiveTens). You will have massive amounts of traction with that combo but can still just lift your foot off the pedal when you need to.


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

theMeat said:


> Don't wanna start a hole nother clipless/platform debate but, have been riding clipless for years, still do, and a good platform with the right type shoes are still my fav.


yup, that's why i didn't name the thread platform vs cage vs clipless...heh
I want to take baby steps right now...nothing too drastic = would like to go from cage pedals to platform.

thanks!


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## regionnus rattis (Jun 27, 2011)

I ride whatever pedals I like to ride with and could care less what other riders think of me. That being said, I like my platform pedals


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Heavy Fluid said:


> I don't recommend cage at all for off road use. Either platform, or as mentioned above, clipless.


Yep, ain't that the truth:thumbsup: at least for most people.


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## Adam_B. (Apr 7, 2011)

I know you're reluctant to go clipless but after you get used to them it becomes second nature to clip in and unclip. Bailing and dabbing become a non-issue. I used platforms for a while and was also reluctant to switch to clipless. But the advantages of having the pedals connected to your feet are great. Your pedaling motion is smoother because you can pull the pedal as well as push effectively using the full 360 degree motion of the crank. This helps a lot with traction as well as saving energy.

edit: FWIW I've only had 2 incidents where my clipless pedals had any negative effects. Both were the day after I intalled them. One was a dummy fall when I stopped and tried to step off the pedal, didn't unclip, panicked and fell over. The other happened riding an area I had no business riding on flats or clipless. I endo'd hard and one foot didn't unclip. That happened because I had the tension of the binding way too tight. After some practice I haven't had any more issues.


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## sluggo69 (Sep 14, 2009)

*pedals*

i ride sun ringle zuzu's and 5.10s.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Everyone wants you to go clipless because they've been told it's the best ever. Just run what you're comfortable with. There's nothing you can't do on platforms what you can do on clipless and with the big flats with sharp pins out there then you aren't missing out on anything.

Save a few dollars and get the nicest flat pedals you can afford. Look for big, sharp pins and nice large body pedals. The Deity Decoys are a good pedal but sort of pricey, and the suggestions above on flat pedals are good for budget. Personally, I spent way too much and got Straitlines and I couldn't be happier, they are the best I've ever been on.


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## Heavy Fluid (Mar 31, 2011)

I was never told that clipless was the best ever. I found that out on my own, for the type of riding that I do. It really depends on the riding that you do as to what type of pedals you should use. If I rode more downhill or really sketchy terrain, I wouldn't be clipping in.


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## msmolly46 (Nov 8, 2008)

*Pedals*

Clipless better pedal stroke


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

msmolly46 said:


> Clipless better pedal stroke


Well, that's not true. You just have to learn how to pedal.


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

zebrahum said:


> Well, that's not true. You just have to learn how to pedal.


+1

its kinda like trying to scrape mud off the bottom of your shoe...

kinda...


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

uhm yeah...didn't want this thread to be debate about clipless...



Heavy Fluid said:


> If I rode more downhill or really sketchy terrain, I wouldn't be clipping in.


i get my kicks off hazardous/sketchy terrain...just looking for a good platform right now.
looking at various designs, i like the ones with the option for grip screws on the axel.

these look promising; they are not out yet i don't think:
HT EVO


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

Why not both?


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## Tony777 (Jul 19, 2010)

I've been monitoring these studed pedal threads, a lot of them seem like you have to remove the studs from the top end as a lot of them don't seem removal from the back (i.e. HT EVO). If you can only remove the studs from the front to replace them, is it that difficult once they get banged up from rocks and logs, etc.?


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## XCSKIBUM (Mar 15, 2010)

TraumaARNP said:


> Why not both?


Those would be next to worthless as platform pedals.

In my somewhat limited experience, platform pedals W/O prominant (insert) hard metal studs will NOT keep the feet on the pedals in rough terrain.

Since my experience is "somewhat limited" that would tend to lend more credence to that statement as it didn't take much time to discover the vast difference in metal studs Vs monolthic construction, composite or otherwise.

Any molded in traction features will soon start to be worn smooth & diminish in effectiveness.


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

XCSKIBUM said:


> Those would be next to worthless as platform pedals.
> 
> In my somewhat limited experience, platform pedals W/O prominant (insert) hard metal studs will NOT keep the feet on the pedals in rough terrain.
> 
> ...


It's apparent you have very limited research skills...there are studs on the non-clip side. 

















Do some research before you flap those inexperienced jaws.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

There is nothing worse than trying to clip in and hitting the flat pedal side. You can get a pair of decent clipless pedals for very cheap, just get platforms first then if you want get another set of pedals. Don't compromise or you'll be unhappy with both the platform and clipless side.


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## Steeljaws (May 2, 2010)

Urbansniper said:


> hello; i keep reading that platform pedals provide more grip than cage type...and i am trying to understand why? is it as simple as there being more surface area on the pedal?
> 
> with that said i have seen many recommendations for the wellgo MG1's. can you suggest any other bargain pedals for me? weight is not so much as a concern for me...i would rather have them be more rugged.
> 
> thanks!


Ignore the dilitante's, those Wellgo WAM D-10's are the best dual purpose pedal bang for the buck. When you think it makes a difference to go with either all platform or all clipless, then do so; beginners need to start somewhere, and those pedals are perfect. BTW, long term riders use those dual purpose pedals for the practicality and ease of goiung either way.


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

Tony777 said:


> If you can only remove the studs from the front to replace them, is it that difficult once they get banged up from rocks and logs, etc.?


that's a good point. i'm thinking the hex insert is deep enough to where once you notice some wear and tear...just replace them, and not wait until it's just a nub...lol


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> There is nothing worse than trying to clip in and hitting the flat pedal side. Don't compromise or you'll be unhappy with both the platform and clipless side.





Steeljaws said:


> BTW, long term riders use those dual purpose pedals for the practicality and ease of goiung either way.


how stable of footing would i get with some clipless trail shoes (example: Shimano MT33) that are not clipped into a clipless pedal with a cage/platform (examples: wellgo WAM D10, Time X Roc)?

i am thinking about dabbing scenarios where i don't have a chance to clip in...and step on the side that has the SPD mechanism. wouldn't the footing/traction be horrible due to metal on metal (cleat on top of SPD)?


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## Qyota (May 25, 2011)

I think you're worried too much about falling over. 

FWIW - I use eggbeaters and love 'em. Used SPD for years before that and loved 'em. I've used the Nashbar-equivalent Wellgo WAM D10, and those are nice too. Still have them, and use them on my older MTB for around-the-neighborhood stuff, pulling the kid and so forth.

Pedals/cleats aren't terribly expensive. Try a few different things and see what works best for you. If you start with something like the WAM D10, you'll have the option for either shoe style depending on the ride you're planning.


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## XCSKIBUM (Mar 15, 2010)

TraumaARNP said:


> It's apparent you have very limited research skills...there are studs on the non-clip side.
> 
> View attachment 625739
> 
> ...


It's apparent that you have limited picture posting skills.

Why didn't you post PIX of both side in your 1st post? If you had done that in the 1st place, I would not have made that post.

Learn how to post complete information before you start throwing out negetive rep when someone responds to the ambiguous information you post..


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

Qyota said:


> I think you're worried too much about falling over.
> 
> FWIW - I use eggbeaters and love 'em. Used SPD for years before that and loved 'em. I've used the Nashbar-equivalent Wellgo WAM D10, and those are nice too. Still have them, and use them on my older MTB for around-the-neighborhood stuff, pulling the kid and so forth.
> 
> Pedals/cleats aren't terribly expensive. Try a few different things and see what works best for you. If you start with something like the WAM D10, you'll have the option for either shoe style depending on the ride you're planning.


you must be young, and/or heal quickly...heh. 
I'm not so much worried about falling over; i just hate downtime due to injuries.

i hear you though, clipless setup is not too expensive. when i have some spare $ and extra time to learn how to ride clipless, i will consider.

me and my buddy were at first considering something like the WAM D10...actually we were considering the XLC dual sided pedal.

XLC:


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

looking at the WAM D10's (i have not seen them previously)...i am thinking you could take the SPD side of the pedal and tap your own holes for hex screws. the pedal is aluminum and will be easy to work with.

then adjust the height of the screws to give just enough clearance to clip/unclip.
or say there is a trail you want to ride with regular shoes, it wouldn't take long to back out the screws a bit.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Hi,

I have the Wellgos you mention, combo platform, clipless, and about anything a bike nut has tried in almost 50 years of riding.

The Wellgos are light and my favorites that also don't break the bank are Transition Step Downs.

I switched to platforms and sticky shoes nearly full-time when something made my balance get worse about my 50th birthday. I do admit I can have an occasion where I'll spin the pedal where clipped in would help but I've stopped hurting myself as much and find I will ride skinnies or elevated stuff where others clipped in wont.

Air time and crashes make platforms valuable. You can escape your bike and really get the neat feeling of flying instead of what I see with many who are clipped in - the just lifting up your bike via cleats and thinking you're flying.

Oh, another advantage. I wear shin guards for much riding and am spared poison ivy, and other problems.

I get the idea and sometimes use my clipped setup for easy and racer boy trails but the most fun and best riding happens when I've got platforms.

The only downside for my having the Wellgos you mention and the Transitions is the Transitions weigh more. I don't really notice that when riding and their design lets me climb stuff where I'll spin the Wellgos.


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## Steeljaws (May 2, 2010)

XCSKIBUM said:


> *It's apparent that you have limited picture posting skills.*
> 
> Why didn't you post PIX of both side in your 1st post? If you had done that in the 1st place, I would not have made that post.
> 
> Learn how to post complete information before you start throwing out negetive rep when someone responds to the ambiguous information you post..


Lighten up Frances, no need to go all hormonal on us all; if you had intimate knowledge of these pedals, OR did the research (which you did not), you wouldn't have had an Exorcist like spew of these pedals are worthless BS. It's on you Pappy, no matter how you want to spin it, so get over it.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Urbansniper said:


> how stable of footing would i get with some clipless trail shoes (example: Shimano MT33) that are not clipped into a clipless pedal with a cage/platform (examples: wellgo WAM D10, Time X Roc)?
> 
> i am thinking about dabbing scenarios where i don't have a chance to clip in...and step on the side that has the SPD mechanism. wouldn't the footing/traction be horrible due to metal on metal (cleat on top of SPD)?


Depends on the pedal really, the D10 would probably be pretty stable even with a clipless shoe as long as the cleat didn't hit the pedal body. A shoe like the MT33 has a good rubber sole surrounding the cleat so you have a better chance of stepping on rubber than say a "cleat style" shoe. Your goal should be to pedal on that side only long enough to get your momentum up so as to be able to hit the clip in side.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

spikey platforms + soft soled shoes provide all the grip you'll need. I use Nike Free's they are very lightweight and durable and the pins grab hold of them


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

I rode them wam D-10 for a few years, and they're plenty durable, but now they're in my parts bin. IMO they don't do either well and when you wanna clip in you must flip the pedal which can be a pain on the trail.
But they can be found on ebay on the cheap.
Love it when people think outside "the box", but by puting pins on the clip side than not only will you be annoyed when trying to clip in, but it could be downright impossible to get clipped in or out. Guess with the right size shims for clip reach, and texture and compound on shoes, and the right size pins you could get it to go. Just seems like a lot of r&d for some pedals that might work, and there's so many pedals that are already great at what they do.


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

just came back from a ride...15 or so miles on a trail i haven't hit in a long long time. very enjoyable...but more than a few spots i had no choice than to bail last minute. yup...no clipless for me.



theMeat said:


> Love it when people think outside "the box", but by puting pins on the clip side than not only will you be annoyed when trying to clip in, but it could be downright impossible to get clipped in or out.


lol...i was thinking about doing this (above post)...


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## clay_smith (Oct 25, 2008)

Urbansniper said:


> uhm yeah...didn't want this thread to be debate about clipless...
> 
> i get my kicks off hazardous/sketchy terrain...just looking for a good platform right now.
> looking at various designs, i like the ones with the option for grip screws on the axel.
> ...


those look great.


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## texredr (Jul 16, 2011)

Platform.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Urbansniper said:


> just came back from a ride...15 or so miles on a trail i haven't hit in a long long time. very enjoyable...but more than a few spots i had no choice than to bail last minute. yup...no clipless for me.
> 
> lol...i was thinking about doing this (above post)...


Yep, I'm payin attention


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

ended up picking up some forte convert pedals from a local shop (Performance Bicycle) this weekend. I was surprised on how much of a difference it made compared to the factory cage pedals as far as grip...I got to spend a few hours on a trail with em sunday morning.









https://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1085037_-1___


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## raleigh5 (May 30, 2011)

good choice on going with platforms. i swapped the cages that my ( used )bike came with for some wellgo platforms last week. i am much more comfortible riding with the platforms. i can detect no loss of pedalling power AND i feel more at ease with 1 less thing to worry about when maneuvering thru certain areas. just fyi: i've ridden with cages/toe clips on my roadbike for 20 years and probably always will.


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## dirtnut (Jul 30, 2011)

NEVER get cage. Too dangerous. Platform or even better clipless!


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## sgtcurry (Mar 27, 2011)

I have the same pedals. Just be careful when you dismount those pins really really hurt when they hit your shin, that and you can adjustment any lower than how they came.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Are some of you guys actually saying you can get the same pedaling efficiency with flat pedals as with clipless? Hard to believe. No matter how well you "learn to pedal" you can't pull up on a flat pedal to nearly the degree you can when you are clipped in. 

I love my clipless pedals, but a lot of my rides include walking, climbing etc where the shoes really become a problem. Yesterday we were at a place where you could climb and scramble on giant boulders and rock formations for miles, but with my shoes with clips, I could hardly enjoy it.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> Are some of you guys actually saying you can get the same pedaling efficiency with flat pedals as with clipless? Hard to believe. No matter how well you "learn to pedal" you can't pull up on a flat pedal to nearly the degree you can when you are clipped in.
> 
> I love my clipless pedals, but a lot of my rides include walking, climbing etc where the shoes really become a problem. Yesterday we were at a place where you could climb and scramble on giant boulders and rock formations for miles, but with my shoes with clips, I could hardly enjoy it.


The only thing that makes platform pedals less efficient is the stiff soled shoes from clipless pedals. Proper pedaling stroke has nothing to do with "pulling" pedals. The "pull" stroke in proper pedaling is an unweighting of the rising foot, but everyone is told to pull up on the pedal by the guy who told them clipless pedals are superior because that guy was told by another guy who was told by...

Here's the first non-video result from a google search on proper pedaling technique:
http://www.bikesplit.com/bsa4.htm

Your leg muscles are not strong in the pulling position but are very strong in the push, so that means you can achieve proper pedaling technique with clipless pedals, flat pedals, toe clip pedals, whatever you'd like to use.


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## allenfstar (Jul 7, 2011)

i run two sets of shoes/pedals one clipless set for xc and a platform set for all mtn


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

zebrahum said:


> The only thing that makes platform pedals less efficient is the stiff soled shoes from clipless pedals. Proper pedaling stroke has nothing to do with "pulling" pedals. The "pull" stroke in proper pedaling is an unweighting of the rising foot, but everyone is told to pull up on the pedal by the guy who told them clipless pedals are superior because that guy was told by another guy who was told by...
> 
> Here's the first non-video result from a google search on proper pedaling technique:
> http://www.bikesplit.com/bsa4.htm
> ...


+ rep for this reality based post.:thumbsup:


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Don't wanna start another clipless/platform debate but since it's started already....
Clipless are more effecient period. You can push, and pull, and use the entire rotation for power with both legs. There's just no way of explaining that fact away no matter how scientific, or how many links you post. You also stay connected to the pedals over any drops or rugged terrain better than with any platform shoe combo period. Your mechanically attatched. 
There's also very textured bottom flexible shoes that you can buy for clipless, and very stiff shoes for platform, so althou that might be your issue, it doesn't have to be.
With that being said, you just can't tell someone what to like or like better. You can like 1 more than the other but you can't change the facts or laws of physics to prove you're right, althou many try.
I ride clipless on all my road bikes, and platform on all but 1 of my mtb's because I like platforms better on dirt. No matter how good or fast you get at uncliping, it's just faster not to when you have to bail.

As a famous man used to say, "This is Howard Cosell, telling it like it is"


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

theMeat said:


> Don't wanna start another clipless/platform debate but since it's started already....
> Clipless are more effecient period. You can push, and pull, and use the entire rotation for power with both legs. There's just no way of explaining that fact away no matter how scientific, or how many links you post. You also stay connected to the pedals over any drops or rugged terrain better than with any platform shoe combo period. Your mechanically attatched.
> With that being said, I ride clipless on all my road bikes, and platform on all but 1 of my mtb's because I like platforms better on dirt. No matter how good or fast you get at uncliping, it's just faster not to when you have to bail.


Links; scientific proof and/or research based quantifiable (objective) evidence vs. qualitative (subjective) opinions??


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

theMeat said:


> Don't wanna start another clipless/platform debate but since it's started already....
> Clipless are more effecient period. You can push, and pull, and use the entire rotation for power with both legs. There's just no way of explaining that fact away no matter how scientific, or how many links you post. You also stay connected to the pedals over any drops or rugged terrain better than with any platform shoe combo period. Your mechanically attatched.
> With that being said, I ride clipless on all my road bikes, and platform on all but 1 of my mtb's because I like platforms better on dirt. No matter how good or fast you get at uncliping, it's just faster not to when you have to bail.


You can't make a sensible argument with phrases like "no matter how scientific" my points might be. Try and educate yourself and you'll learn that biomechanically our bodies are not made to pull our legs upward.

Just because your feet attached to the pedals means that you can propel the pedal in any direction you wish doesn't mean that your muscles are made to propel your feet in that direction. Think about it logically; how much more weight are you legs capable of pushing away from the body vs how much weight can the legs lift toward the body? How much more weight can your leg pull backward vs how much it can push forward? You body is made up of muscles pairs all over it and in the case of the legs, the much larger muscles are meant for very particular movements like walking and running. The smaller muscles are meant to return the leg to the position where it can do the most efficient work. Now, I'm no expert on physiology but it's pretty clear to see what movements the legs are meant to produce efficiently.

Now if you would like to make an argument that you get less tired pedaling like that, well that's subjective and entirely valid. But don't sit there and bash biomechanic analysis of pedaling movements just because you feel like it isn't right. I'm sure there must be some studies out there, please try and actually back up your points before you go and bash established data. I'd happily accept data that says my viewpoint is incorrect, I'm always excited to learn new things.


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

^^^^ gets another + rep, just have to switch to one of my sockpuppets.:thumbsup:


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

theMeat said:


> No matter how good or fast you get at uncliping, it's just faster not to when you have to bail.


yup, as far as the type of mountain biking i am interested in...what ever benefits there are to being clipped in, I am willing to trade them all in for the ability to exit my bike as quickly as possible. but for now, that's just me.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Ha ha ha, you're funny Trama. + rep for making me laugh. I'm not looking to argue, and yes it is my opinion. I'm not gonna post up any links or such. I ride clipless and know that I get tired faster when I'm using all my muscle to go faster, and that I can go faster because I'm using all my muscles. Sure the legs are designed to work a certain way but that doesn't mean any and all muscles can't be used, help, or made stronger. If you use your pulling muscles for a while, and then your pushing of coarse you can go longer. At the same time thou, it should be an "of coarse" you can go faster and it's more efficient because you're clipped to the pedal and you can use the entire rotation, No? IDK, maybe we're just looking at the word efficient in different ways.
I still remember the first time I went clipless. I felt like all of a sudden I was turbo charged


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

There's a benefit to be able to push and pull your clipless pedals but is it more efficient? No. I put clipless on my SS because I needed on the climb where efficiency is not the most important, cleaning the climb is:thumbsup:. Racing is another good reason to go Clipless, because you are not judge on how efficient you ride, you are judge on how soon you can cross the finish line, how cares how much your stroke is sloppy.

I doubt that avg riders would be able to tell if flats with 5.10 is more efficient than Clipless, pulling on the pedals does not make it more efficient it simply gives you an ability to pull. It's hardly more efficient, large muscles on the downstroke overwhelm any small muscles that make good strokes. 

I was a big clipless advocate, I had a nice platform and some cheap 661 shoe that were too stiff and useless til I got my first pair of 5.10, now I'm a convert. I do almost 50/50 now between clipless and flats.:thumbsup: 

I don't need study to back up either side of the claim as I read them both and they support their side of the claim. The test study I valued most is my own.


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## sgtcurry (Mar 27, 2011)

^ + nothing is like learning it and experiencing it for yourself. You can always get advice but if its not for you then its not for you. I ride platforms because I still tend to stall a bit on the larger climbs and for me its worth it to be able to get my feet off immediately without needing to unclip to save myself.


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## Gatorjaw (Jun 17, 2011)

Been useing platforms for 18 years. I would use clipless if i had a rode bike though


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

zebrahum said:


> You can't make a sensible argument with phrases like "no matter how scientific" my points might be. Try and educate yourself and you'll learn that biomechanically our bodies are not made to pull our legs upward.
> 
> Just because your feet attached to the pedals means that you can propel the pedal in any direction you wish doesn't mean that your muscles are made to propel your feet in that direction. Think about it logically; how much more weight are you legs capable of pushing away from the body vs how much weight can the legs lift toward the body? How much more weight can your leg pull backward vs how much it can push forward? You body is made up of muscles pairs all over it and in the case of the legs, the much larger muscles are meant for very particular movements like walking and running. The smaller muscles are meant to return the leg to the position where it can do the most efficient work. Now, I'm no expert on physiology but it's pretty clear to see what movements the legs are meant to produce efficiently.
> 
> Now if you would like to make an argument that you get less tired pedaling like that, well that's subjective and entirely valid. But don't sit there and bash biomechanic analysis of pedaling movements just because you feel like it isn't right. I'm sure there must be some studies out there, please try and actually back up your points before you go and bash established data. I'd happily accept data that says my viewpoint is incorrect, I'm always excited to learn new things.


I'm keeping an open mind. My post was not meant to doubt anyone, just an observation as I have never heard or imagined the arguement that platforms could be just as efficient. 
If they are, that is great news for me. As I said, I would love to be able to get off my bike and be able to hike and climb without those silly cleats on my soles.

From the article you posted:

_I've identified three points of your pedal stroke where you can gain energy output: Pushing forward over the top, pulling back at the bottom, and lifting the weight of your leg as it moves back up to the top during the 'backstroke.'_

The article does not differentiate between pedal types so doesn't address this question directly, but from the quote above, it seems intuitive to me that 2 of the 3 points he mentioned would benefit from being attached to the pedal: Pulling back at the bottom and lifting up from bottom to top.

Your arguement that your pulling muscles are weaker makes no sense to me. So what? They are important muscles in your leg (hip flexors, hamstrings) that are used for almost all leg activities. Even if they could only contribute 10% to the force on the cranks, 10% is huge.

The article says that if your leg weighs 15 pounds and you don't lift it during the upstroke, 15 pounds of force from the other legs downstroke is wasted lifting your upstroke leg. That makes sense. So, if it is beneficial to relieve that upward pedal of the 15 pounds of weight on it, wouldn't it be more beneficial to lift with 20 pounds of force instead of 15, and give a net benefit of +5 from that leg, instead of zero, or -15?

Like I said, I'm keeping an open mind. Like you, I am willing to learn new things. I will read up on it and post anything interesting I find.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> Your arguement that your pulling muscles are weaker makes no sense to me. So what? They are important muscles in your leg (hip flexors, hamstrings) that are used for almost all leg activities. Even if they could only contribute 10% to the force on the cranks, 10% is huge.
> 
> The article says that if your leg weighs 15 pounds and you don't lift it during the upstroke, 15 pounds of force from the other legs downstroke is wasted lifting your upstroke leg. That makes sense. So, if it is beneficial to relieve that upward pedal of the 15 pounds of weight on it, wouldn't it be more beneficial to lift with 20 pounds of force instead of 15, and give a net benefit of +5 from that leg, instead of zero, or -15?


Again, I'm no expert on physiology so take my word for what you will but with the usage of muscle groups that aren't made for exertion comes the very real risk of damaging those muscles. So when everyone tells a beginner to get out there and start pulling the pedals on the upstroke not only is that person expending greater amounts of energy on a muscle group that has a smaller potential for energy output but they are potentially going to damage those muscles because the assumption is that the upstroke should provide as much power as the down. You only get so much energy for a bike ride, I don't see where the value of wasting the energy on inefficient muscle groups comes into play. I've not done enough research on coaching pedaling stroke but the little bit I've done all says the same thing, use the muscles to lift the leg not to pull the pedal. I have to imagine that expert opinion trumps my uninformed opinion so I passed on the information.

But to each their own, if it works for you then go for it. I just thought I'd share the findings that I have come across that show that you could develop a sound pedal stroke on whatever pedal type you choose to ride. There's plenty of benefits for clipless pedals and I would even say that the ability to pull up is one of those benefits. There's nothing like the ability to panic hop your bike by pulling up or when I'm struggling to crest that nasty climb on my SS give the pedal a pull to get some more effort out of it. But you can develop an efficient pedal stroke on good flat pedals just the same as you can on clipless.


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

theMeat said:


> Ha ha ha, you're funny Trama. + rep for making me laugh. I'm not looking to argue, and yes it is my opinion. I'm not gonna post up any links or such. I ride clipless and know that I get tired faster when I'm using all my muscle to go faster, and that I can go faster because I'm using all my muscles. Sure the legs are designed to work a certain way but that doesn't mean any and all muscles can't be made stronger. If you use your pulling muscles for a while, and then your pushing of coarse you can go longer. At the same time thou, it should be an "of coarse" you can go faster and it's more efficient because you're clipped to the pedal and you can use the entire rotation, No? IDK, maybe we're just looking at the word efficient in different ways.
> I still remember the first time I went clipless. I felt like all of a sudden I was turbo charged


Thanx; while yor post is purely subjective, and open to a thorough beatdown by the prevailing scientific evidence, I give you the respect you deserve for sheer moxy, if nothing else. I can't return the + rep favor since I used it up with another + rep I gave you a while back, but I'm sure I can convince one of my 8 sockpuppets to throw one your way.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

zebrahum said:


> You can't make a sensible argument with phrases like "no matter how scientific" my points might be. Try and educate yourself and you'll learn that biomechanically our bodies are not made to pull our legs upward.
> 
> _Biomechanic? Unless they make the pedals similar to Avatar $hit then I'll be the first one to go full time clipless._
> 
> Just because your feet attached to the pedals means that you can propel the pedal in any direction you wish doesn't mean that your muscles are made to propel your feet in that direction. Think about it logically; how much more weight are you legs capable of pushing away from the body vs how much weight can the legs lift toward the body? How much more weight can your leg pull backward vs how much it can push forward? You body is made up of muscles pairs all over it and in the case of the legs, the much larger muscles are meant for very particular movements like walking and running. The smaller muscles are meant to return the leg to the position where it can do the most efficient work. Now, I'm no expert on physiology but it's pretty clear to see what movements the legs are meant to produce efficiently.


So true, not to mention that pulling up on the pedals require twice the concentration/focus it's not bad when you do 45 rpm but going at 80+rpm is not easy, it's much easier to put the power on the downstroke and rest on the upstroke.



smilinsteve said:


> I'm keeping an open mind. My post was not meant to doubt anyone, just an observation as I have never heard or imagined the arguement that platforms could be just as efficient.
> If they are, that is great news for me. As I said, I would love to be able to get off my bike and be able to hike and climb without those silly cleats on my soles.
> 
> Your arguement that your pulling muscles are weaker makes no sense to me. So what? They are important muscles in your leg (hip flexors, hamstrings) that are used for almost all leg activities. Even if they could only contribute 10% to the force on the cranks, 10% is huge.
> ...


Most studies done in the lab were on the road bike not mountainbike there's big difference when it comes to traction and power delivery. One great thing about Clipless pedals is the fact that it restrict your pedaling movement, once clipped in you are always would pedal in circle one less thing to worry, but that's also a downside because we get lazy and just pedal. If you don't think about smoothness the result can be horrible sometimes. A lot of people would stop and rest around the tech climb, on a steep loose one you can hear the tires break traction if the riders don't pedal smoothly, I hardly see experienced riders on flats make that kind of mistake, not that they are better but flats are unforgiving if you don't pedal smoothly you'd ended up walking the rest of the way up.

I remember the first time I was on a flat I kept lifting my foot off the pedal on the steep climb, I know it's bad habit the sad thing is we all do it, flat cured that problem for me. I believe that if you hook me up to a machine to calculate the power the number would be pretty close between the 2 pedal formats.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Well like Smilinsteve pointed out, there's not much evidence in that link, and like Mimi said, in so many words, I don't need scientific evidence to tell me what's better/works for me, And I'd have to say that you (Trauma) can prolly beat me down anytime just because I'd be rolling on the floor from laughing. LOL


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

TraumaARNP said:


> Thanx; while yor post is purely subjective, and open to a thorough beatdown by the prevailing scientific evidence,


Yes. Can you please point me to that prevailing scientific evidence?


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

mimi1885 said:


> One great thing about Clipless pedals is the fact that it restrict your pedaling movement, once clipped in you are always would pedal in circle one less thing to worry, but that's also a downside because we get lazy and just pedal. If you don't think about smoothness the result can be horrible sometimes. A lot of people would stop and rest around the tech climb, on a steep loose one you can hear the tires break traction if the riders don't pedal smoothly, I hardly see experienced riders on flats make that kind of mistake, not that they are better but flats are unforgiving if you don't pedal smoothly you'd ended up walking the rest of the way up.


So you are saying that riding flats can improve your technique? I'd believe that, and that's a good thing to consider!



> if you hook me up to a machine to calculate the power the number would be pretty close between the 2 pedal formats.


Interesting.


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> Yes. Can you please point me to that prevailing scientific evidence?


Google is your friend, shipmate.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

TraumaARNP said:


> Google is your friend, shipmate.


Ok thanks!!!!!!!

I just figured that since you are so familiar with the research and your mind is completely made up, you must have some really good suggestions for reading material!


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

I found a few from betterride.com. Clipless VS Flats. And this interesting read as well.

I also read somewhere when they hook up a roadie to a powertap and what not, it showed that clipless without upstroke focus produce the most power, follow with a big gap by clipless with the upstroke focus, and last place pretty close number to the 2nd place by flats.

It goes without saying that each type has it pros and cons. You can't learn wheelie or manual on manual, well you can but it can be painful and contrary to popular believe flats/5.10 has no float, that's right zero float you can't slide your foot out you must lift, that's how good the shoe is.

Use both and have the best of both world, you'll become a better rider. I know it's not cheap to add a decent flat set up.


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