# 1X vs 2X gearing for us



## chasejj (Sep 22, 2008)

Preface: I am a pretty active and powerful climber at 6-3 285. Sounds impossible , but I look for climbs and grind them.
I resisted 1X for quite a while, but when Raceface came out with their new NextSL crank and the options for 1X,2X or 3X I jumped all over it. Great crank BTW. Amazing crank actually and I have broken several lightweight cranks in 1/2 BITD.

Anyway, In a conversation with Dave Turner a while back we got to discussing 1X and my concerns with gearing on 29ers and 27.5 wheels vs 26ers . He mentioned some EWS racers who run a 1X NW chainring 32/34 like a DHer and mount a 2nd CR(non NW) on the 94mm inner spot. But NO FD!!

Handshift down to the climbing gear since they either go flat or down in the 32/24 and climb steeps in the 22/24. 

So I tried it after running 1X at 26/42 for a low gear a long time, but want more gear on flats,rollers and DH. 
So I rigged up a 30T Wolftooth NW and a 22T inner and mounted it up.
In a word AWESOME!
I ride 50% in the 30T NW and when entering steep and longer climb sessions I handshift at a reststop to the 22T. Which gives me much more flexibility and keeps me out of the aluminum 42T gear which I spent too much time in when running the 26/28/30 1X setups. 

I recommend this as an option if you do much climbing and feel like 1x limits your choices. The handshift is really easy once you do it a few times.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

so how is this easier than using a front derailleur? 

your running a 2x setup but have to shift by hand? by hand shift you mean you have to stop riding, lift the rear tire while cycling the pedals so you can manually move the chain to the smaller chainring so you can climb easier? 

i don't see the benefit, saving a few grams? 

am i missing something?


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

BENKD29 said:


> so how is this easier than using a front derailleur?
> 
> your running a 2x setup but have to shift by hand? by hand shift you mean you have to stop riding, lift the rear tire while cycling the pedals so you can manually move the chain to the smaller chainring so you can climb easier?
> 
> ...


Yes, front derailleurs are not cool ! and hand shifting makes you a better rider ! Where have you been ?


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## Kajjal (Dec 14, 2013)

Be careful going 1x11 that you have all the gear ratios you need. 2x give a wider gear range with smaller gaps. It depends where you ride and how you ride.


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## Bttocs (Jun 21, 2014)

OK, lets see if I understood the OP's post. He has changed to a 1X11 setup, but found he wanted more climbing power. That makes sense to me if you ride up steep hills or long med steep hills. So he added a second front ring and changed the sizes so he has a 2X11 setup now. This gives him good range for high and low gears. He didn't add the front derailer, cable and thumb shifter and shifts by hand. Well, my chain is oily, and I hate touching it because I get oil/grease on my grips and everywhere else. Maybe just me, but I would make a light weight bracket or widget that would shift the chain without touching it with your fingers. I can see if you don't use one of the ranges very often, then "hand" shifting for something rarely used could make some sense. That would also assume you stay with something close to the original 1X11 ratios and just add a better low end. Not sure if that is what he did. Guess I would like to understand how you hand shift the front rings. I can think of a few different ways, none of which I would give up the normal derailer mech's for.

I ride a 2X10 setup w/front derailer setup and love it. I ride steep hills, and some road and couldn't be happier. I basically ride the small front ring in the dirt and the large ring on the road. I don't shift the front very often, but I wouldn't want to do it by hand. Especially on the road, on my ride to work it ends with a monster climb up a very steep, 1/2 mile long hill, that I use the small ring for. I don't think I could make it on my big ring. Wouldn't want to touch the chain just before getting to my desk job. I suppose gloves help, but you will still get grease on the grips.


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## chasejj (Sep 22, 2008)

BENKD29 said:


> so how is this easier than using a front derailleur?
> 
> your running a 2x setup but have to shift by hand? by hand shift you mean you have to stop riding, lift the rear tire while cycling the pedals so you can manually move the chain to the smaller chainring so you can climb easier?
> 
> ...


Maybe I wasn't clear as I could have been. Love the 1X setup , love the quiet, les complexity, no thoughts about being in the right front ring, no dropped chains or chainsuck on shifts. Wouldn't go back unless maybe Shimano Di2 drops way down in price and more options become available.

The hand shift idea has nothing to do with being hip or cool. I am not that in any way.
The EWS riders doing this feel the same as I do about the 1X and the lack of a need for a chainguide, FD, shifter, etc. 
This idea is only valid if you ride extended periods in the 30+T NW as your main gear. The 94mm BCD climb gear is only needed when facing steeper climbs for extended stretches. It will save your legs on these rides. 
This idea fails miserably if you aren't committed to the 30+T NW chainring in most situations. Essentially it is a 1X with a bailout. If you are not a 1X fan and are totally happy with a 2X/3X and FD then just ignore the idea.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

Well, I'm grateful to the OP for making me laugh. Whether or not it was intended, it's definitely the most amusing post I've read in a long time.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

to each his own. if it makes you happy then rock on. 

i however will not be converting using this method. I'm a fan of 1x, but have no desire to have two chainrings and no front derailleur.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

BENKD29 said:


> so how is this easier than using a front derailleur?
> 
> your running a 2x setup but have to shift by hand? by hand shift you mean you have to stop riding, lift the rear tire while cycling the pedals so you can manually move the chain to the smaller chainring so you can climb easier?
> 
> ...


Just to put a number on the weight saving
1. XTR Front Derailleur = 132
2. XTR Front Shifter with cable = 107
3. XTR 22T ring= 23g
4. XTR 44T ring= 76g
5. MRP chain guide : 60 grams ( chosen randomly )

Have I missed anything ?

Saving of a 1X purist : 278 grams
Saving of a 1X with 2X granny ring handshifting : 202 grams

Hand cleaner, moisturiser, wipes & plasters will probably weigh over 202 grams as I prefer to buy the bigger value bottles.


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## Bttocs (Jun 21, 2014)

chasejj,

It would help to understand how you shift by hand, please describe how you do this. If you don't have to touch the chain and its easy, I can see advantages with your approach. You do have to shift both down and up when done with the climb I assume.


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## chasejj (Sep 22, 2008)

Bttocs said:


> chasejj,
> 
> It would help to understand how you shift by hand, please describe how you do this. If you don't have to touch the chain and its easy, I can see advantages with your approach. You do have to shift both down and up when done with the climb I assume.


Just so we all understand. This is not anything I want to do frequently. Part of the reason of this mod is to keep the Narrow Wide CR for chain retention. I frequently would drop chains before I went 1X. But as you go from 26" to 27.5" and 29" you essentially lose a gear per upsize in wheels. This leads to the desire for the climbing ger you had when on 26".

That said the shift is easy peasy.

grab the chian and pull at the 5 o'clock position of the larger CR and slide the slack chain to align with the smaller climb CR and seat it. Then rotate cranks backward. I use the Wax chain lube so my chains are pretty clean. But washing gloves is no big deal for me if they get messy.

So for my typical training ride I would do the downshift once and at the rest stop at the top of the climb I upshift. No big deal.


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## NytrostarSS (Mar 6, 2006)

It's a simple thing to do by hand, easier than putting a dropped chain back on. I think it's a good idea if you want the simplicity of a single speed and an optional "bail out" gear to keep you on your way through a ride. To be used with any regularity you'd probably find yourself wanting a regular 2x10 setup again. All in all, great option for some!


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## chasejj (Sep 22, 2008)

NytrostarSS said:


> It's a simple thing to do by hand, easier than putting a dropped chain back on. I think it's a good idea if you want the simplicity of a single speed and an optional "bail out" gear to keep you on your way through a ride. To be used with any regularity you'd probably find yourself wanting a regular 2x10 setup again. All in all, great option for some!


FWIW-I didn't invent this by any means. In fact Brian Lopes does this on his Enduro race bike. Several others as well since they have stops at start and tops of climbs very similar to any trail ride you would do.


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## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

Manual 22er right here. I have a 30t Wolf up font for 99% of my Maryland and VA riding. Just took a trip to Salt Lake City and Park city where I used that 22t like a lil' *****. I shifted down with my toe and shifted back up at the top of the hills, by hand, when we were all gassed. Made a trip of 5 days straight riding and over 12k of climbing totally possible without buying back my old front shifter and derailleur.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

Crockpot2001 said:


> Manual 22er right here. I have a 30t Wolf up font for 99% of my Maryland and VA riding. Just took a trip to Salt Lake City and Park city where I used that 22t like a lil' *****. I shifted down with my toe and shifted back up at the top of the hills, by hand, when we were all gassed. Made a trip of 5 days straight riding and over 12k of climbing totally possible without buying back my old front shifter and derailleur.


Am amazed.

What's next on the list of things to remove ?


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

I'm occassionally dropping chains, and N/W with a clutch derailleur should tidy all of that up - so I've been toying with the idea of a 34T or 36T N/W on the big ring and keeping the 22T there for annoyingly long boring climbs. I'd also like to use the old front shifter location for a KS Southpaw on my all mountain bike.

As GX stuff gets cheaper, I might wind up going to an XD driver based setup, but what I've been trying to work out is if a 32T out in front of the 10-42T cassette would end up negating my need for the dinky 22T that would still only be accessing the bottom three gears.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

wow, some real 'mountain bikers' in this thread
(in baby voice) 'l dont want to touch a greasy chain', god help me, your out riding (presumably) in mud/dust/dirt, sweating, and you whinge about some grease, thats some funny sh!t, what do guys do when you flat?



As for the ops idea, its a great idea, lve thought about it myself, as yet have not got around to it, but another possibility which has perked my interest is the new 11-40, 11-42 & 11-44 cassettes coming out, l thinking of then swapping the 30t out for a 32, 34 or even a 36, but leaving the 30 on with a 11-44 cassette would give you a good granny gear,.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

cmg71 said:


> wow, some real 'mountain bikers' in this thread
> (in baby voice) 'l dont want to touch a greasy chain', god help me, your out riding (presumably) in mud/dust/dirt, sweating, and you whinge about some grease, thats some funny sh!t, what do guys do when you flat?


No-one is whinging about grease. I am just amazed that someone has tried converting to 1X but found they really need 2X but rather than adding back those fantastic inventions namely, the shifter and derailleur, they have opted to hand shift to save 200 grams.

Have you ever raced and won ?. Anyone who races knows a dropped chain loses them time. This will also be the case if a rider stops to hand shift. The impact of riding with an extra 200 grams is far less than the impact of racing a course where one has to hand shift up, down a few times. The impact is even greater on an unfamiliar course where little to no preparation was performed beforehand.


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## Maday (Aug 21, 2008)

c8stom said:


> Am amazed.
> 
> What's next on the list of things to remove ?


How about Thumbs?


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

c8stom said:


> Anyone who races knows a dropped chain loses them time. This will also be the case if a rider stops to hand shift.


I truly doubt this is for any sort of racing setup. This is just for those long annoying uphill grinds until you get to the fun stuff. For a race setup, it sounds like he wouldn't need the 22T anyway because of the 42T in back. the OP just wanted the 22T to save some wear and tear on those 42T aluminum cogs. With the price of those things, I don't blame him. Looking forward to see what new cheap 10-speed carrier mounted cassettes come out soon.

I currently have a 24/32 2x setup with derailure and shifter. This is something I might do, but weight saving isn't the reason to do it. The only real reason is for the narrow wide ring up front. You can drop a chain with a 2x up front. Much harder with a NW. Unfortunately, very difficult to shift a NW ring.


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## Tystevens (Nov 2, 2011)

Crockpot2001 said:


> Manual 22er right here. I have a 30t Wolf up font for 99% of my Maryland and VA riding. Just took a trip to Salt Lake City and Park city where I used that 22t like a lil' *****. I shifted down with my toe and shifted back up at the top of the hills, by hand, when we were all gassed. Made a trip of 5 days straight riding and over 12k of climbing totally possible without buying back my old front shifter and derailleur.


Yep, there can be a bit of climbing out here. This sounds like a decent idea, actually. On many rides, I'll climb for 30-90 minutes without shifting out of my small ring (usually just bouncing between the largest 3 cogs). Shift to the big ring at the top and don't touch it again. So, it would be a feasible setup for places like Utah where you get all your climbing done in one chunk.


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

c8stom said:


> No-one is whinging about grease. I am just amazed that someone has tried converting to 1X but found they really need 2X but rather than adding back those fantastic inventions namely, the shifter and derailleur, they have opted to hand shift to save 200 grams.
> 
> Have you ever raced and won ?. Anyone who races knows a dropped chain loses them time. This will also be the case if a rider stops to hand shift. The impact of riding with an extra 200 grams is far less than the impact of racing a course where one has to hand shift up, down a few times. The impact is even greater on an unfamiliar course where little to no preparation was performed beforehand.


I'm only looking at this because my riding follows the formula of :
I'm either climbing up slow, steep, arduous single track for an extended period of time, and not doing so on the clock (I'm not the right size or shape for XC racing), or 
I'm going as fast as possible on flat and downhill sections to amuse myself, and my alternative for making this work is the added cost of a chainguide.

So, either I go out, buy a chainguide (since dropped chains tend to happen at the worst possible time going down mildly chunky stuff at speed for me, but I'm not running stuff that's super-aggressive to where I'd need chainguide+N/W), and run my current 22/36T setup and rely on the front derailleur, or I spend that money instead on a Praxis cassette or 42+16T cogset to change my XT cassette into a wider range one, buy a 104 narrow/wide ring, and then omit the shifter/FD (since going narrow/wide means the front derailleur is pointless). Net price difference is about the cost of the narrow/wide ring, but that difference in weight is about 350g with the chainguide added in, and lets me mount the dropper remote where I would have had a front shifter.

I just can't jump to full 1x because some of my favorite rides are basically gaining almost 1000ft in 40 minutes of uphill slogging in the bottom few gears, then shooting back down that same altitude difference in 5 minutes, so I'm using pretty much all the gearing range I have already. I could afford to give up 20 seconds to faff with a chain (I'll have time anyway to rearrange/reset kneepads and make sure that the sweat dripping into my eyepro is cleared up) at the bottom and top in order to have a nice wide range setup ready to roll the rest of the time.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

6'6" 240 here and run a 32T ring on SRAM 1x11 on a 29er. Only rarely do I wish for lower gearing on steep NorCal trails. Plenty of 300-400+ ft per mile climbs.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

tehllama said:


> I'm only looking at this because my riding follows the formula of :
> I'm either climbing up slow, steep, arduous single track for an extended period of time, and not doing so on the clock (I'm not the right size or shape for XC racing), or
> I'm going as fast as possible on flat and downhill sections to amuse myself, and my alternative for making this work is the added cost of a chainguide.


Fair enough...


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## HBSURFDAD (May 29, 2014)

This makes sense to me. If I am in my 22/36 I am going way to slow and should be walking anyway (I mash as you can guess). I think a 32 1x10 with a 11/42 would be all I "Should" need 99% of the time but leaving that 22 on as an emergency bail out makes sense. If I can keep from "pussing out" and stay in my 22/28 I do ok, but I tend to shift right past it and keep going lower. The 32/42 is basically the same gear but will keep everything easier. 
If I blow up I just flop to the 22 up front and get home. I have not done this, but I do like the concept.


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## some dude (Jan 1, 2014)

Some folks just don't get that even a powerful clyde needs more gear range than a similarly fit light weight. I'm getting hosed in the Yeti forum because I'm not real happy their new SB4.5c they just announced and I've been waiting for has no provision for a front derailleur,...WTF? They are all telling me I need to lighten up and just go 1x but what most don't realize is I have spent a ****-ton on 1x extended range 10 and 11spd set ups to find what works for me as I'm very much into the best of the best and have found that on an XC bike for 15-25 mile rides with 2-3k feet of gradual elevation and no long climbs I'm fine with 1x11 XTR 42-11 with 36nw front Oval ring. However put me in CO on a 40+ mile ride with 4500' of climbing at 9500 feet and I better have a damn 3x10 or 2x11 to get a climbing final ratio of around .67 or so vs the .86 of a 36/42 low gear. I managed a KOC (king of the clydes) on both a 5 mile climb and 7 mile Continental Divide section on same 40 mile ride that day while others with 1x of my size and local were dying (I live at 1,200' elevation) So being able to save legs with high cadence climbs being a Clyde is essential in my opinion. Too bad they keep making these bicycles for all the small guys out there. It's alot easier to get by with a 1x on a 27.5 or 26 for sure but on the 29 or Fat Tire 26 as said earlier there's that much more tire circumference to overcome. I think Yeti totally dropped the ball on a 29" trail bike offering and no FD option, but I'm supposedly the only one who feels this way. The manufacturers are forcing the 1x down our throats, it works great for many applications, but not for an big guy on an long grinder of a ride,..which is exactly the guy who buys a solid 29" trail bike for better roll over.


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

I was super stoked about the Yeti SB95 replacement too... until I realized that SB4.5 we got was more expensive than an Evil Following, had less travel, steeper HTA, and was 1x-only compatible. 

I'm really sure the Yeti will rip for anybody on the east coast, and be the most awesome general use trail bike set up with a 130mm fork... but I'm using up every bit of travel on my 150/130 rig, and both extremes of the gear range all in the same rides still means I want more. I'm coming to realize that I'm not in good shape, but living at 6000' my ability to pedal up steep things wouldn't be improving drastically even if I was back in really competitive shape... I'd still be quicker with a 2x system.


What I've been intrigued with here of late is:
a) trying to throw a road compact or CX crankset on my XC hardtail (that sees as much road use as off-road - wears 2.1 Aspens) and running an 11-40T cassette. I'd be on the edge of not having enough granny for climbs, but I get spun out chasing nerds in lycra on local roads with my 38-11 tallest gear.
b) looking at running a 26-39 XO crankset in front of a GX 2x11 kit - same granny gear I have now, only missing one gear from a compact road setup

1x really makes sense in flatter areas, or for racing. My principal goal for having a 1x setup is just to get a clear spot on the bar for a dropper lever - but I'm so used to where I have mine now, and better levers (like Raceface/Easton's new one) make that irrelevant. As long as 2x10 XT setups stay so cheap and so good, I don't see a tremendous amount of need there (when I can fund wheels and tires that withstand my stupidity).


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## mark! (Jun 1, 2012)

I stopped reading the thread when it went full retard. Weight saving in the Clydesdale section. 

Keep your 2x/3x set up, drop the pizza. Done


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## HBSURFDAD (May 29, 2014)

"Full retard", thank you for your contribution.

I like the simplicity of 1x, it is not at all about saving weight. I run a 33 front ring with my 11/42. That is all the gears I need on my rides. My crankset was a double so I just left the 22 on the inner (added weight). If I do ever find myself in need is lower gear I can just make a little flick and I have a 33% cut in all my gears (ever bonked on an epic ride?). My intent is to have a 1x, I just have 2 different front single rings. I don't want a 2x, I want a 1x, I just have an emergency back up ring.

Different bikes, different trails, different riders, different approaches, you can learn a lot with an open mind (even what not to do).


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## loopsb (Aug 9, 2004)

I would surmise a good way not to Bonk is to ride appropriately low gears before you do, and not try to mash higher gears because it is currently in fashion. 

" but Mom........all the cool kids are running 1x these days"

"I know Son, but you don't want to really commit to that, so you have to just accept the fact that you are still a 2x'er, and be happy"

" aawww Mom , but this way nobody will have to know at least.....right?" :blush:


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## HBSURFDAD (May 29, 2014)

To be clear, I have not needed it. Just making the effort to remove it seems dumb and trendy. It just sits there just in case.

I was not aware the only way to bonk is climbing in too big a gear, thank you for that new insight.

So being prepared for something that might not happen is a bad idea, and riding 1x is a bad idea. Thanks for the enlightenment.


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## loopsb (Aug 9, 2004)

Just seems they haven't worked all the functional bugs out of them, at least for riders in certain parts of the country or those who ride steep, lengthy, and grinding sustained climbs. Add in being a Clyde , and the need for wider ratios become more pressing. Most everyone I talk to running them tout the advantages and say the're great, but then when I look at their bikes most seem to have some sort of "pie plate" add on sprocket, or have to change front sprocket depending on the ride and terrain. Personally not big on band aid solutions, especially when one is paying a premium for the technology. Sounds like a good idea though


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## HBSURFDAD (May 29, 2014)

My XT 11 shifts better then my old x9 10. 

The 42 rear is scary to me, but then so was the 36 when I first got it. I remember 28's being huge and trying to find a 24 tooth front just to get up my local hill.

A 22/36 is just too low for me to functionally ride on my climbs. The 1x just removed my 2 bottom gears because I can't help but shift into them then just crawl along. I am faster on all my climbs I have done after the switch (faster than old me, not fast in reality). It is working for me for now.

Going to mammoth in a few weeks, I might be singing a different toon then!


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## Joules (Oct 12, 2005)

Alias530 said:


> Plenty of 300-400+ ft per mile climbs.


that's steep to you? 7.5% grade... wow, no wonder you aren't worried about low gears.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

This is why I always have a laugh on internet forums. It would be one thing is everyone in this thread was sharing experience from the same EXACT trail system, but we aren't. 

Gearing that works for me would be totally different than gearing that works for someone out west. If you want to keep your 2x drivetrain....then keep your ****ing 2x drivetrain. If you want to know what 1x is like, then figure out the gearing ratios you would hve, and limit yourself to using them the next time out on trail.


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## some dude (Jan 1, 2014)

Additionally the 2x 10 or 11 setup with normal range cassette has less gaps and better shifting. I recently installed 1x11 XTR on my XC bike with 11-42 cassette and it's shifting is not as crisp as my 2x10 XTR on my fatbike. Additionally Shimano restricted down shifts to 2 at a time on the 11spd vs 4 on the 10 spd I think,..definitely 3 down at a time. Both setups will do 4 gears up on a single shift for climbing. Other difference is the 11spd XTR only allows double down shifts with a thumb push rather then trigger finger like that of the 2x10, which I prefer for my absent minded head. So 1x is nice but also a compromise but almost all of my experience is with shimano products.


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## GeneralGee (Mar 18, 2017)

Just stumbled across this... and it's hilarious, I'm glad I did. My only question is: did this seem as ridiculous in 2015 as it does in 2020?


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

What is the beef with having a front derailleur?
1) Looks
2) Another failure point, miss-shift
3) Chain can come off crank gear in the rare occasion.
4) Another shift gear on handlebar
5) Save money on not having a front derailleur and a cable and a gear.
6) Cassettes are more expensive since being 11spd and all


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

https://www.berkshiresports.org/bicycle-gear-ratio-comparison-calculator/

Development comparison of 22/32 on 11-42 and oval 28 on 10-50

22/42 49" 22/36 57"
32/42 71"
Big jump can see why this helps

eagle 28t oval
26/50 48" then 30/50 56" seems close to what the op is running

Downside is high end remains 28/10. Which sometimes makes me wish for another gear.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

I would like to take a look at the gearing charts. I remember seeing a great one someone wrote up on an article comparing the 1x to the 2x and 3x. I just havent been able to find it. I like the ability to have a 52T/11T combo for speed, but also have a 22T/36+T for hill climbing. No FD have the capacity for that of course. But a 44T/##/22T is possible for a crank combo on a 3x.

At first the 1x made no sense, but I am coming around to seeing the overlap and the chainline advantage. But I am cheap and seeing the cost of them expensive cassettes is jaw dropping.

The cheapest 12s r.cassete (10-50) is $120usd! from Chain Reaction Cycle.
The cheapest 11s r.c. (11-32) $44 11-46 $61 which is a bit better $ wise.
The cheapest 10s r.c. (11-32) $30 11-36 $47
The cheapest 9s r.c. (11036) $30
Ut Oh, I just noticed Chain Reaction Cycle dont sell no Shimano/SRAM no more.


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