# Am I Cheating? Single Speed Race Rules.



## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

I was planning on riding a local race, the Whiskey Off Road, in the single speed category. The course is full of climbs and I was thinking of running a 2x2 and switching to a bigger gear, 100% manually, by using the EBB slack for the flats/downhills. My pal thinks this will be cheating. 

I can't seem to find any rule on this on the internet. Do such rules exist? I ask mainly because 2x2 seems almost the same as changing gears during a pit stop in a 24 hour event or actually carrying all the needed tools in a backpack and switching mid-ride.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

yes thats cheating. Single means one. as in one speed. not two. not four. one.


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## pahearn (Feb 17, 2006)

Yeah that's lame if you're racing in an SS category.


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## Caffeine Powered (Mar 31, 2005)

I say let him try it. If his chain is slack enough it'll be dropping almost as fast as he will places in the race.

On the off chance it doesn't drop. You'll be spotted by the *real* singlespeeders and banished to ride with the clueless masses of multispeeders.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Dirdir said:


> I was planning on riding a local race, the Whiskey Off Road, in the single speed category. The course is full of climbs and I was thinking of running a 2x2 and switching to a bigger gear, 100% manually, by using the EBB slack for the flats/downhills. My pal thinks this will be cheating.
> 
> I can't seem to find any rule on this on the internet. Do such rules exist? I ask mainly because 2x2 seems almost the same as changing gears during a pit stop in a 24 hour event or actually carrying all the needed tools in a backpack and switching mid-ride.


Yes, it is "cheating."

The 24hr race example is not valid. You are allowed to use more than one bike in a 24hr event. Can not do that in an XC mtb race.


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## shishku (Jun 29, 2006)

You are a cheater for asking. Why would you want to enter a SS race and not use a SS ? Just cut the course too so you are not in the way while you change gears.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Dirdir said:


> I was planning on riding a local race, the Whiskey Off Road, in the single speed category. The course is full of climbs and I was thinking of running a 2x2 and switching to a bigger gear, 100% manually, by using the EBB slack for the flats/downhills. My pal thinks this will be cheating.
> 
> I can't seem to find any rule on this on the internet. Do such rules exist? I ask mainly because 2x2 seems almost the same as changing gears during a pit stop in a 24 hour event or actually carrying all the needed tools in a backpack and switching mid-ride.


I'm guessing it will be faster to just push up the few hills you can't make than doing two gearing switches (once at the bottom of the hill, once at the top)

But, to answer your question: I don't know what the rules say, but even if it is allowed I would think someone was a real schmuck for doing it. You want multiple gears, ride with the gearies. Maybe it would be different if you actually had to remove the old cog and put on a new one....and let everyone passing you while you did it whack your a$$ with a paddle that you supply.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Sooooo cheating.


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## BikeMojo (Jan 6, 2005)

Dirdir said:


> I was planning on riding a local race, the Whiskey Off Road, in the single speed category. The course is full of climbs and I was thinking of running a 2x2 and switching to a bigger gear, 100% manually, by using the EBB slack for the flats/downhills. My pal thinks this will be cheating.
> 
> I can't seem to find any rule on this on the internet. Do such rules exist? I ask mainly because 2x2 seems almost the same as changing gears during a pit stop in a 24 hour event or actually carrying all the needed tools in a backpack and switching mid-ride.





pahearn said:


> Yeah that's lame if you're racing in an SS category.


whether there is a specific rule or not.... it is pretty lame.


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

shiggy said:


> Yes, it is "cheating."
> 
> The 24hr race example is not valid. You are allowed to use more than one bike in a 24hr event. Can not do that in an XC mtb race.


If single speed is single speed, then as far as I am concerned, the 24 hour event example is 100% valid. If a racer switches gears in the same event, it ain't single speed regardless of what the rules say. It may not be cheating, but it ain't single speed. Taking the rule issue out of it, what do you think is the difference?

There is no written rule in this event on this issue. I intend to switch gears once, at the end of the major climbing. I won't even be "racing" this ride as I have no chance or desire to finish in the top 15. Not even close. The race organizer says I should have fun with it. I was simply trying to do that. I really don't care whether I am in the gear or single speed category anyway. Under these circumstances, I don't think it is lame at all. However, I was curious as I could not find a single rule about this or anything even close.


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## SoloRider (Aug 6, 2004)

Cheating or not Geoff, you don't need the dingle. Gear for the climbs, the rest is mainly coasting downhill no flats to speak of, not even the pavement back in town. I think what you really need to do is go re-ride the course and remind yourself what you're up against.

For the record, I doubt Todd would DQ you for a dingle. I wouldn't if it was up to me.


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## bui (Mar 16, 2007)




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## anthony.delorenzo (Aug 17, 2006)

I'm not a racer so I don't know much about rules, but I always thought the singlespeed ethos was "run what ya brung." Maybe I've been reading Dicky's blog too much...

Regards, 
Anthony


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## skidmark (Mar 9, 2004)

I agree with solorider. Once you get to the top of the climb out of Skull Valley, the rest of the course is downhill singletrack where skill, not gearing will make all the difference. After that the pavement to town is best done by spinning yer ass off, or finding a gearie to draft. The gear change will not help much, if at all(you'll still be spun-out) and may actually cost you time and will probably bring you bad karma as well! Maybe stop and remove your brakes at the top of the climb?!


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## CB2 (May 7, 2006)

I would think it would take more time to stop, lossen the ebb, move the chain, and re-tighten the ebb than it would be worth.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

If you are in a single speed class, then yes it's cheating.

I swapped gears once in a 24 hour race. I never had a chance to see the course before hand, and I chose the wrong gear. There was no SS class, so I didn't feel as if I were cheating.

I've changed gears in between stages at La Ruta, and I will do it this year. No SS class, no worries. Each day offered up a new challenge.

I've kept the same gear on for seven straight days at the Trans Rockies twice.

I think any time you are racing the SS class, you should NEVER switch gears. That should include 24 hour races, but that will never be enforced (Worlds for example). SS racing is what it is. If you really want to swap cogs, and you don't care how you place just race in the geared class.


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## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

I think what we're all forgetting here is that, (I believe) DirDir is a lawyer.

Using lawyer logic, what he proposes is perfectly acceptable. 

'Nuff said.


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## tomimcmillar (Oct 27, 2005)

Dirdir said:


> If single speed is single speed, then as far as I am concerned, the 24 hour event example is 100% valid. If a racer switches gears in the same event, it ain't single speed regardless of what the rules say. It may not be cheating, but it ain't single speed. Taking the rule issue out of it, what do you think is the difference?
> 
> There is no written rule in this event on this issue. I intend to switch gears once, at the end of the major climbing. I won't even be "racing" this ride as I have no chance or desire to finish in the top 15. Not even close. The race organizer says I should have fun with it. I was simply trying to do that. I really don't care whether I am in the gear or single speed category anyway. Under these circumstances, I don't think it is lame at all. However, I was curious as I could not find a single rule about this or anything even close.


If you're registering in the *single*speed class, and you use more than one gear ratio in the event, then you are no longer riding a *single*speed. You probably can't find any 'rules' on this, because it's is one of those things that really doesn't need to be put in writing. It's a pretty simple concept.

And despite the fact that you, personally, are not after any sort of finishing 'goal' doesn't make it right. If you enter the *single*speed class, and try to pull this stunt, you're taking something away from all the honest *single*speeders who you may or may not beat. They may have goals, they may want to know where they stand against the their peers. Why do you want to muddy those waters? If you truely don't care about your placing, then enter the geared catagory that fits and be content with your ride.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dirdir said:


> I was planning on riding a local race, the Whiskey Off Road, in the single speed category. The course is full of climbs and I was thinking of running a 2x2 and switching to a bigger gear, 100% manually, by using the EBB slack for the flats/downhills. My pal thinks this will be cheating.
> 
> I can't seem to find any rule on this on the internet. Do such rules exist? I ask mainly because 2x2 seems almost the same as changing gears during a pit stop in a 24 hour event or actually carrying all the needed tools in a backpack and switching mid-ride.


oh yeah... this guy's a lawyer all right. 

seriously though dude... what part of *SINGLE* speed is getting past you???? yes that is absolutely, positively, undeniably, irrefutably, indubitably, without a shadow of a doubt cheating, and if you get caught you will be dq'ed *IMMEDIATELY*.

you cant find rules on this??? are you serious??? BAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA..... :lol:

its a *single speed* class!!!! the rule is inherently implied by the class. *single (i.e. ONE) speed*. doesnt mean you only *use* one gear ratio at a time (since every geared bike does that as well), it means you use a *single (i.e.ONE) speed* for the *ENTIRE RACE*.

no amount of logic, justification, or rationalization will change the fact that *YOU ARE CHANGING GEARS* in a single speed class. it doesnt matter that you are there to have fun and not win, *YOU ARE CHANGING GEARS*! it doesnt matter if you click a shifter on the handlebars or stop, move the chain and adjust the ebb, *YOU ARE CHANGING GEARS*. the key words here are *CHANGING GEARS*!!!

if you want to change gears run the gearie class. if youre just out to have fun on your single (i.e. *ONE*) speed and not win then pre-ride the course and gear it so you can clean most everything, then go out and have fun!


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## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

I agree with Solorider. Gear for the climbs. Once you top out, it's pretty much rolling downhill to the finish.


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

*I don't know...*

Cheating means it is against the rules....

Some time ago EPO was not detectable and therefore (some interpreted this to mean) not against the rules in pro cycling (you only had to make sure that your hematocrit was not too high). However, it was wrong, and many people died as a result.

Probably, no one will drop dead as a result of your MULTI- GEARED bike being used in a SINGLE SPEED race, but it is still wrong!

So, in summary....cheating? May be. Wrong? absolutely.


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## FODM (Dec 24, 2006)

*An analogy*

A "one way street" means you can only go "one way." Period. Not "one way at a time."


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

*yeah...*



FODM said:


> A "one way street" means you can only go "one way." Period. Not "one way at a time."


Your's is much better than mine.

but I will add this: you CAN go the wrong way down that one way street, BUT even if a cop sees you and does not write a ticket...it is still wrong!


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## bigwheelboy_490 (Jan 2, 2003)

So using a White Industry's DOS crank and cog is cheating?


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

*stick in the mud*

not to sound like a jag, but it is cheating. 
A few years ago, we were racing the SS category at a 24 hr race. I was passed by a guy who was also in the SS class, and I noticed something...one of those Rohloff hubs. 
I couldn't stand the fact that he was in our class, and him thinking that his bike was so stealth...I had a little talk with the race director. Guy was disqualified.

A few years ago, I also did the Fall Color Festival at Kettle Moranine SS cat. Two guys from Chicago showed up. Both on bikes that had a 42 ring up front, and a road cassette on the back. They let them into the SS class simply because we all knew they were noobs and they were used to flat bike path riding. One of them even asked me if there were flat sections and I said. Sure, there's an itty bitty 1/10th of a mile section.

After the race was over, these two guys showed up, hating the world forever.


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## miSSionary (Jun 29, 2005)

It is cheating to use two gears in a SS race no matter if you have to manually change the gear or not IMHO. If you want to race a SS bike than you need to race a bike with one gear, the same gear you started with. If that gear is too hard that is too bad, if that gear is too easy that is still too bad:yikes:. I see people at 24hr events with SS bikes and like FIVE cogs for "when I just can't push this one gear anymore"...ARGut: !! (I may be able to be won over by swaping a gear ONCE in a 24hr but FIVE TIMES [I said "may be"]:nono:...but seriously, why not just have a geared bike if you need to change out the gear five times?!)...IT'S A FREAKING SINGLE SPEED!! Have fun with it BUT have the pride to "run what you brung"...otherwise have fun but do it with the gearies:yesnod:, switching gears cannot be done on a SS (because SS bikes have just ONE gear, at least that is what I was lead to believe) so if you change a cog, chain, sprocket (to a different size)...whatever...the change takes the bike into the geared side of life. 
FYI~Running a 2X2 is like changing gears at a 24hr pit stop...that would make me feel I have not stayed true to the goal (IF there WAS a SS class and that WAS the class I chose to race in) because the bottom line is that more than one gear range was used...With a SS "One is all you need"!! I do believe if teamdicky can run the same gear at Trans Rockies (and quite well I must add...:thumbsup all of us can run the same gear for at least a day. Sorry, rant over, it'SS a sore spot for me, this topic.


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## ferday (Jan 15, 2004)

> So using a White Industry's DOS crank and cog is cheating?


sin·gle (snggl)
adj.
1. Not accompanied by another or others; solitary.

may not be "cheating" as per the rules....but karma will consider it cheating. not sure how some people have such bad math....you only have to add to 1.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

bigwheelboy_490 said:


> So using a White Industry's DOS crank and cog is cheating?


if you _*CHANGE GEARS*_ in a _*SINGLE SPEED*_ race you are cheating.


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

*Derailleur*



monogod said:


> if you _*CHANGE GEARS*_ in a _*SINGLE SPEED*_ race you are cheating.


your hands then are the derailleur, and I agree with monogod.


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## miSSionary (Jun 29, 2005)

bigwheelboy_490 said:


> So using a White Industry's DOS crank and cog is cheating?


Well...you can't put a white industry DOS crank on a SS because then the bike is geared. If you have a bike with one ring in front and one in back it is a SS. If you have a bike with a crank that has two gears it is a geared bike with a manual trans. on it...Simple


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Now I can't ride with Dirdir anymore because I'm afraid I'll get struck by lightning...


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Dirdir said:


> If single speed is single speed, then as far as I am concerned, the 24 hour event example is 100% valid. If a racer switches gears in the same event, it ain't single speed regardless of what the rules say. It may not be cheating, but it ain't single speed. Taking the rule issue out of it, what do you think is the difference?
> 
> There is no written rule in this event on this issue. I intend to switch gears once, at the end of the major climbing. I won't even be "racing" this ride as I have no chance or desire to finish in the top 15. Not even close. The race organizer says I should have fun with it. I was simply trying to do that. I really don't care whether I am in the gear or single speed category anyway. Under these circumstances, I don't think it is lame at all. However, I was curious as I could not find a single rule about this or anything even close.


If that is your intent, do not enter in the singlespeed class.

As far as SS "rules," if you look hard enough I think there was a SSWC or two that flatly stated that any rider on a bike with more than one ring in front and one cog in back would be severely and immediately punished.


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## mrsalty (Feb 7, 2006)

*you had no idea the flame session you were in for asking that?*

that is a rhetorical question right??

just because you can, does not mean that you should.


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## ionsmuse (Jul 14, 2005)

teamdicky said:


> I think any time you are racing the SS class, you should NEVER switch gears. That should include 24 hour races, but that will never be enforced (Worlds for example). SS racing is what it is. If you really want to swap cogs, and you don't care how you place just race in the geared class.


1) Yes.

2) Who cares? Ride what you want.


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## dumbaSS (Sep 8, 2005)

*Should have known...*

only a lawyer could argue that switching gears manually is still riding a singlespeed.:nono:

So if you're running 3 X 9 but switch the gearing manually are you legally riding a singlespeed?


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## miSSionary (Jun 29, 2005)

dumbaSS said:


> only a lawyer could argue that switching gears manually is still riding a singlespeed.:nono:
> 
> So if you're running 3 X 9 but switch the gearing manually are you legally riding a singlespeed?


You are then running a geared bike with a manual transmission.:lol:


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

This is truly funny. I never once argued that riding a 2x2 = single speed, yet many of you here seem to think that is what I am saying. It is not single speed. I know that.

My point was simple. If one is allowed to change gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour event, then why can't someone do the same thing in a non 24 hour race? The only answer of any meaning to this question is "because the rules allow it." Fine, but my point was, regardless of what the rules say, what is the difference? I say there is none.

Can someone please step up and explain why it is still single speeding to change gears in a 24 hour race but it is not single speeding to change gears in another race?

As far as I am concerned, the lap argument fails because laps are simply the measure used to determine who rode the most. To me, there is no nexus between 24 hour races and the acceptance of changing gears. The only difference is that someone has decided one is ok and one is not. If that is all there is, fine. But then those that slam me for being a poser, non-single speeding dinglepuss better realize that the distinction is arbitrary and that these same people, as long as they have changed gears in a 24 hour race, are also not single speeders. They are a bunch of posers.

I am glad that a few of you stand by the position that changing gears, even once, in any race, at any time, 24 hours or not, is no longer really single speed. I agree. In the single speeding hall of fame, all records for any racer that has changed gears in a 24 hour event should have an asterix placed next to the entry.

Also, I want everyone to fess up and admit if they have changed gears in a 24 hour event.


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## miSSionary (Jun 29, 2005)

Dirdir said:


> This is truly funny. I never once argued that riding a 2x2 = single speed, yet many of you here seem to think that is what I am saying. It is not single speed. I know that.
> 
> My point was simple. If one is allowed to change gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour event, then why can't someone do the same thing in a non 24 hour race? The only answer of any meaning to this question is "because the rules allow it." Fine, but my point was, regardless of what the rules say, what is the difference? I say there is none.


Dirdir,
Well I guess I missunderstood that you realized the 2X2 was not a SS. I agree with all you have said, there is no difference between a 2X2 and a gearie...well just the other 23 gears but a gearie is a gearie (2X2 or 3X9). I do think the Leadville Trail 100 has rules to state a SS is a bike with one gear (only example I could think of), thus not even allowing a flip flop hub. I wish other races would follow that lead.


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## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

You probably won't get a definitive answer to your question(s). However, the consensus here and the AZ forum seem to be the same regarding how you should register. 
I understand you're not doing it as a race but for the fun of it. I commend you for doing it as it is a LOT of climbing. To those of us who are doing it as a race against our own limiters AND for fun, give us the respect to see how we do in a field of our peers. Not a field of our peers and gears ( more than one ).
PS - last year I registered geared (25 proof)and rode my SS - with the geared crowd, just for fun!


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

SoloRider said:


> Cheating or not Geoff, you don't need the dingle. Gear for the climbs, the rest is mainly coasting downhill no flats to speak of, not even the pavement back in town. I think what you really need to do is go re-ride the course and remind yourself what you're up against.
> 
> For the record, I doubt Todd would DQ you for a dingle. I wouldn't if it was up to me.


I agree with ya. I don't need it. I am now leaning towards going pure.

I did speak to Todd via email before posting this thread, but even if Todd was cool with it, I will ride the proper category (geared if I bring the dingle, SS if not) because of all the responses here and on the AZ forum. I don't want anyone to get all butt tight even if I finish 38th out of 42. They are entitled to their race and 100% legit results.


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## JrockFeltaz (Jun 7, 2006)

to some people the whiskey off roard is not a race.....It's a chance to do a fully supported epic ride, and have fun. As much as you SS'ers talk about chrushing gearies all the time, you sure got yer panties in a bunch over dirdir.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dirdir said:


> I never once argued that riding a 2x2 = single speed... It is not single speed. I know that.


then why the hell do you think you can enter it in a single speed class? if you have a penis you cant race with the girls. geared bikes cant race in the ss class. its really pretty simple...



Dirdir said:


> If one is allowed to change gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour event, then why can't someone do the same thing in a non 24 hour race? The only answer of any meaning to this question is "because the rules allow it." Fine, but my point was, regardless of what the rules say, what is the difference? I say there is none.


REGARDLESS of what the rules say??? so REGARDLESS of what the rules say should you be able to race in the 14-19 female class just cuz you want to??? um.... HELL NO! (catching on here???)



Dirdir said:


> Can someone please step up and explain why it is still single speeding to change gears in a 24 hour race but it is not single speeding to change gears in another race?


technically it is NOT single speeding. however, because the blanket policy in the rules allows riders to change bikes then it is allowed. just because its "allowed" by the rules doesnt mean that it somehow changes what SINGLE, ONE, SOLO, UNO speeding is.

the fact that you can change ss bikes for one with a different gearing is to me an oversight has not yet been addressed and corrected.



Dirdir said:


> as they have changed gears in a 24 hour race, are also not single speeders. They are a bunch of posers.


RIGHT ON MAN!!! YER PREACHIN TO THE CHIOR!! :thumbsup:



Dirdir said:


> I am glad that a few of you stand by the position that changing gears, even once, in any race, at any time, 24 hours or not, is no longer really single speed. I agree. In the single speeding hall of fame, all records for any racer that has changed gears in a 24 hour event should have an asterix placed next to the entry.


aaaaaah. sweet serenity. you have seen the light, grasshopper.

just as if you enter this race on a "multi geared ss" (WTF????) and change gears halfway through you can only say afterwards...

"i did the race on a single speed*."

*that had more than one gear, and i changed gears during the race on my single speed.


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## slobiker (Nov 9, 2006)

"Can someone please step up and explain why it is still single speeding to change gears in a 24 hour race but it is not single speeding to change gears in another race?"

For the sake of argument (and as another lawyer) i'll take a shot. In a 24 hour race gears are change at the pits which are located at the start/end point of each lap. Thus you must choose a gear that you will do the entire lap with. Since you are doing the entire lap with one gear (ie the up and the down) you must push a harder gear up the hills to gain an advantage on the downhill, or you lose the ability to pedal faster on the downhills in order to push a lower gear on the uphills.

What you are proposing is to have a lower gear on the uphills and then change at the top of the hill to have a higher gear on the downhill. This is inherently different than changing gears at the start of a loop course where the net elevation gain is goint to be zero (ie you end where you started) From my perspective this this circumvents the point of the single speed racing (get as strong as you can so you can push a higher gear uphill and still pedal in the downhill) in a way that changing gears at the start of a lap does not


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## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

There goes the neighborhhood..........


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Dirdir said:


> ...My point was simple. If one is allowed to change gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour event, then why can't someone do the same thing in a non 24 hour race? The only answer of any meaning to this question is "because the rules allow it." Fine, but my point was, regardless of what the rules say, what is the difference? I say there is none.
> 
> Can someone please step up and explain why it is still single speeding to change gears in a 24 hour race but it is not single speeding to change gears in another race?
> 
> ...


In a 24hr race bike changes are allowed (unlike a short XC race). The bikes used do not have to be identical.

If you are riding in the SS class in a 24hr race, you can change bikes as long as it is still a SS. The gearing does not have to be the same ratio on every bike you use.

You still can not change the gearing (or bike) _*DURING*_ a lap of a 24hr event. Any equipment change must be done in your pit.


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## slobiker (Nov 9, 2006)

azjonboy said:


> There goes the neighborhhood..........


I resemble . . . i mean resent . . . that remark :winker:


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

slobiker said:


> "Can someone please step up and explain why it is still single speeding to change gears in a 24 hour race but it is not single speeding to change gears in another race?"
> 
> For the sake of argument (and as another lawyer) i'll take a shot. In a 24 hour race gears are change at the pits which are located at the start/end point of each lap. Thus you must choose a gear that you will do the entire lap with. Since you are doing the entire lap with one gear (ie the up and the down) you must push a harder gear up the hills to gain an advantage on the downhill, or you lose the ability to pedal faster on the downhills in order to push a lower gear on the uphills.
> 
> What you are proposing is to have a lower gear on the uphills and then change at the top of the hill to have a higher gear on the downhill. This is inherently different than changing gears at the start of a loop course where the net elevation gain is goint to be zero (ie you end where you started) From my perspective this this circumvents the point of the single speed racing (get as strong as you can so you can push a higher gear uphill and still pedal in the downhill) in a way that changing gears at the start of a lap does not


This is good. Thank god someone got it, and another lawyer no less.

I don't believe that the rules should allow gear changes, even at the end of a lap, but your argument is a legitmate one used to justify the different rules.


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

shiggy said:


> In a 24hr race bike changes are allowed (unlike a short XC race). The bikes used do not have to be identical.
> 
> If you are riding in the SS class in a 24hr race, you can change bikes as long as it is still a SS. The gearing does not have to be the same ratio on every bike you use.
> 
> You still can not change the gearing (or bike) _*DURING*_ a lap of a 24hr event. Any equipment change must be done in your pit.


Yes, but these are just the rules, not the reasoning. Moreover, I still can't find anything in writing. And, as far as I know, at least in the 24 Hours in the Old Pueblo, all stops, even in the pit, are during a lap. I am not so sure that the rules preclude mechanical assistance outside the pit. Hell, I had a base camp, but never a pit.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Dirdir said:


> Yes, but these are just the rules, not the reasoning. Moreover, I still can't find anything in writing. And, as far as I know, at least in the 24 Hours in the Old Pueblo, all stops, even in the pit, are during a lap. I am not so sure that the rules preclude mechanical assistance outside the pit. Hell, I had a base camp, but never a pit.


We will never convince you. :nonod:

I consider them "reasonable rules" as there is no one set of "rules" for SSing or 12/24hr events.

Your "base camp" is the "pit." It may be "during" the lap but it is only in a single place on the lap. As stated in another reply it is not the same as changing the gear or bike at the top and bottom of each climb on the course.

If you are racing solo it makes no sense to check in at the scoring tent, go to your pit/basecamp, go back to the scoring tent and check out for the next lap--nor is it required.

If you are on a team it makes no sense NOT to go to the scoring tent and get your team mate started on the next lap before you go to your base camp.

Of course "sense" and the law are not necessarily related.


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

*Wtf?*



JrockFeltaz said:


> to some people the whiskey off roard is not a race.....It's a chance to do a fully supported epic ride, and have fun. As much as you SS'ers talk about chrushing gearies all the time, you sure got yer panties in a bunch over dirdir.


OK troll, 
The OP made mention of RACE RULES, therefore I think it is safe that we assume he is RACING, and not doing a supported ride.
Crushing Gearies has nothing to do with anything...this is a matter of entering a RACE category specific to a SINGLESPEED bike...not sure why you brought that up.
My panties are in a bunch over the ethics that people seem to have lost or never had....does no one look inside themselves anymore and gage performance based on anything other than the height of the trophy?

If this were all about having fun and doing a supported ride why ask the question?...simply enter as a geared rider and forget the rest.


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

shiggy said:


> We will never convince you. :nonod:
> 
> I consider them "reasonable rules" as there is no one set of "rules" for SSing or 12/24hr events.
> 
> ...


Of course these things make no sense. Neither do the "reasonable" rules that allow single speeders to change gears in a single 12/24 event. One race-one gear makes sense.

The only thing I am saying is that it shouldn't be different just because one event is 12 or 24 hours and has pits and the other one is shorter and has no pits.

I thought 2x2 may be within the spirit of single speeding given that tons of racers swap gears in 12/24 hour events. It looks like not everyone agrees about the rules at 12/24 hour events.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Dirdir said:


> Of course these things make no sense. Neither do the "reasonable" rules that allow single speeders to change gears in a single 12/24 event. One race-one gear makes sense.
> 
> The only thing I am saying is that it shouldn't be different just because one event is 12 or 24 hours and has pits and the other one is shorter and has no pits.
> 
> I thought 2x2 may be within the spirit of single speeding given that tons of racers swap gears in 12/24 hour events. It looks like not everyone agrees about the rules at 12/24 hour events.


Well, that is not the way it is.

The 12/24 events are different, and not just because they have pits.

Deal with it.


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

this is so lame


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

> Dirdir whines... "but this dont make no sense to me!"


OF COURSE IT DOESNT! and that comes as no surprise to us. after all... you also think theres a such thing as a multi geared single speed that really ISNT multi geared because theres no rear der and youre stopping to change into a climbing gear by hand rather than simply hitting a bar mounted shifter. :madman:

*WTF?!?!?!?! * ut:


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## JrockFeltaz (Jun 7, 2006)

unit said:


> OK troll,
> The OP made mention of RACE RULES, therefore I think it is safe that we assume he is RACING, and not doing a supported ride.
> Crushing Gearies has nothing to do with anything...this is a matter of entering a RACE category specific to a SINGLESPEED bike...not sure why you brought that up.
> My panties are in a bunch over the ethics that people seem to have lost or never had....does no one look inside themselves anymore and gage performance based on anything other than the height of the trophy?
> ...


nope not a troll, and ride a ss, and still don't see it as cheating.


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## miSSionary (Jun 29, 2005)

Dirdir said:


> I thought 2x2 may be within the spirit of single speeding given that tons of racers swap gears in 12/24 hour events. It looks like not everyone agrees about the rules at 12/24 hour events.


Tons of gearies swap gears, true SSers ride one gear, the same gear, the whole race. A 2X2 will never be in the spirit of a SS because it is a 4 speed.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

miSSionary said:


> Tons of gearies swap gears, true SSers ride one gear, the same gear, the whole race. A 2X2 will never be in the spirit of a SS because it is a 4 speed.


amen brother...

its simple math-

2x2=4
1x1=1


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

monogod said:


> OF COURSE IT DOESNT! and that comes as no surprise to us. after all... you also think theres a such thing as a multi geared single speed that really ISNT multi geared because theres no rear der and youre stopping to change into a climbing gear by hand rather than simply hitting a bar mounted shifter. :madman:
> 
> *WTF?!?!?!?! *ut:


Nope, I know what a single speed is, but apparently anyone that has ever changed gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour event does not. I have done nothing yet except ask a question for clarification purposes. I have never cheated in a race, ever.

Finally, the black and white attitude of some of you is quite surprising, but I still have not seen anyone answer the question about 24 hour races. Anyone want to admit to changing gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour race?


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

JrockFeltaz said:


> nope not a troll, and ride a ss, and still don't see it as cheating.


Do you see it as a SS?

Help me see how using more than one gear on a single ride can be considered a single speed.


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## miSSionary (Jun 29, 2005)

monogod said:


> amen brother...
> 
> its simple math-
> 
> ...


Thank GOD you get that monogod...I really s*ck at math and chose the SS so I wouldn't have to add up all the gears anymore!!...Funny thing is I was in Moab a couple weeks ago riding from town to Porcupine Rim, I am peddling right beside this guy for like five minutes, he looks over and says, "So that's a nine speed then??"...WHAT?!...ALL YOU CAN SEE IS A SINGLE GEAR AND AN I9 HUB?! ARG!...why must all the others turn this stuff into rocket science??...BECAUSE Single Speeds are ROCKETS man!!:thumbsup:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dirdir said:


> Nope, I know what a single speed is, but apparently anyone that has ever changed gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour event does not. I have done nothing yet except ask a question for clarification purposes. I have never cheated in a race, ever.
> 
> Finally, the black and white attitude of some of you is quite surprising, but I still have not seen anyone answer the question about 24 hour races. Anyone want to admit to changing gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour race?


if you know what a single speed is, then you know that riding a single speed PREVENTS the pilot from changing gears in order to climb/descend. you want to change gears mid lap in order to facilitate climbing/descending. yet you still want to call it a single speed. hence, you have created the multi geared ss.

the result from stopping to dismount and change gears for the climb/descent is NO DIFFERENT from simply hitting a bar mounted shifter. when you change gears during a ride/lap its NO LONGER A SINGLE SPEED.

black and white attitude??? either its a single speed or it isnt. no shades of gray there and no fooling the jury, counselor.

and no, i have NEVER changed gearing during a ss 24 hour race.

now your question has been answered.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Dirdir said:


> The only thing I am saying is that it shouldn't be different just because one event is 12 or 24 hours and has pits and the other one is shorter and has no pits.


24 hr races are different in that teams don't just change bikes, but often change riders. Try that in a normal xc race. I am not too familiar with the finer details, but I assume that one rider must complete a lap before the next one begins, at a specific place. So in a way you are linking together many distinctly different segments of the race, between which very large changes (like the rider and bike) are expected to occur. Granted, some opt to go solo, but I think it could be argued that this is a race done in distinct stages.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Dirdir said:


> Nope, I know what a single speed is, but apparently anyone that has ever changed gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour event does not. I have done nothing yet except ask a question for clarification purposes. I have never cheated in a race, ever.
> 
> Finally, the black and white attitude of some of you is quite surprising, but I still have not seen anyone answer the question about 24 hour races. Anyone want to admit to changing gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour race?


OK. I rode a solo 24hr on my singlespeeds (two different bikes). They had slightly different gear ratios, one, rigid, one hardtail, different tires, different wheels, different color. I switched bikes during the event as allowed by the rules (they supplied two number plates to solos riders). Rode complete laps on each bike. I also changed shoes, socks, shorts, tights, jerseys, helmets, gloves and jackets. All allowed and expected for the event. Yes I did it singlespeed. The gearing on each bike was not changed. Switched bike for servicing and tire choice reasons.

Other than the gloves or maybe jacket, none of the above is expected in the type of event you began this thread about.


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## anthony.delorenzo (Aug 17, 2006)

*You're all gearies, dearies...*

Just thought I'd throw this out there: Technically speaking, everyone is a 'gearie' unless you're riding a unicycle or maybe a penny farthing. An SS is still a geared bike, albeit only one gear.

Also, if the _ability_ to change gears, even manually, isn't singlespeeding, then would riding with a pocket full of sprockets be considered illegal? Is it the actual changing that makes you not a singlespeeder, or just the _ability to change_? :cornut:

Regards, 
Anthony


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

monogod said:


> if you know what a single speed is, then you know that riding a single speed PREVENTS the pilot from changing gears in order to climb/descend. you want to change gears mid lap in order to facilitate climbing/descending. yet you still want to call it a single speed. hence, you have created the multi geared ss.


No, I don't want that result. Instead, I want single speed to really mean single speed such that there is a rule banning any gear changes whatsoever in all single speed categories, whether the event is a 12/24 hour one or not. This way, the fatigue or strength of a rider is not facilitated by a gear change. There is no difference between changing a gear mid lap or at the end of a lap. The bottom line is that any gear change is done to facilitate climbing/descending whether it is made mid-lap, post-lap, mid-crap or post-crap. Single speed means single speed, not different speed for different laps.



monogod said:


> the result from stopping to dismount and change gears for the climb/descent is NO DIFFERENT from simply hitting a bar mounted shifter. when you change gears during a ride/lap its NO LONGER A SINGLE SPEED.


Yes, and the result from changing gears after a lap at a 24 hour race is NO DIFFERENT than doing the same mid-lap. It is no longer single speed.



monogod said:


> black and white attitude??? either its a single speed or it isnt. no shades of gray there and no fooling the jury, counselor.


I concur. However, it seems that the rules at 24 hour events have in fact fooled the jury.



monogod said:


> and no, i have NEVER changed gearing during a ss 24 hour race.
> 
> now your question has been answered.


Great, you are a true single speeder.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

That is almost as a bad as if i were to enter the singlespeed category on my 27 speed and promising not to shift 

Seriously, If you want to race in a singlespeed category, your bike should have only a SINGLE working gear.


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

anthony.delorenzo said:


> Just thought I'd throw this out there: Technically speaking, everyone is a 'gearie' unless you're riding a unicycle or maybe a penny farthing. An SS is still a geared bike, albeit only one gear.
> 
> Also, if the _ability_ to change gears, even manually, isn't singlespeeding, then would riding with a pocket full of sprockets be considered illegal? Is it the actual changing that makes you not a singlespeeder, or just the _ability to change_? :cornut:
> 
> ...


Some good points. If we could actually enforce such a thing, I say that racing a bike with many gears but only using one gear from start to finish is indeed single speeding.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dirdir said:


> monogod said:
> 
> 
> > you want to change gears mid lap in order to facilitate climbing/descending. yet you still want to call it a single speed. hence, you have created the multi geared ss.
> ...


BOVINE EXCREMENT!!! thats EXACTLY what you asked in your initial question...



Dirdir said:


> I was planning on riding a local race, the Whiskey Off Road, in the single speed category. The course is full of climbs and I was thinking of running a 2x2 and switching to a bigger gear, 100% manually, by using the EBB slack for the flats/downhills.


dang it... dontcha hate gettin caught engaging in "revisionist history" (a.k.a. lying) with yer own words??? :lol:



dirdir said:


> Great, you are a true single speeder.


WERD! :thumbsup:


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

monogod said:


> BOVINE EXCREMENT!!! thats EXACTLY what you asked in your initial question...
> 
> dang it... dontcha hate gettin caught engaging in "revisionist history" (a.k.a. lying) with yer own words??? :lol:
> 
> WERD! :thumbsup:


Thanks for twisting things around. You forgot this part:



Dirdir said:


> I ask mainly because 2x2 seems almost the same as changing gears during a pit stop in a 24 hour event or actually carrying all the needed tools in a backpack and switching mid-ride.


I never said what we should call it because that is simply not the point. If people are allowed to change gears in a 24 hour event, why is that different than changing gears in a non-24 hour event. Neither is pure single speeding. The same elitists that are accusing me of not being a single speeder are themselves evil gear changers hiding behind poorly thought out rules and/or lack of formal rules.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Just in case my brain was lost in my original post:

If you race in an SS class I think there should be no swapping from start to finish.
If it's just an open class I don't think anybody cares what you do.

I've only done one 24 hour race with a SS class (and two 12hr races). I felt/feel strongly that riders should have to stay on the same gear based on the premise of running a gear that you can handle for the duration of the event.
BUT
Who's got enough time and manpower to enforce those kinda rules on the (usually) rather small SS class? How would they go about enforcing it? If I had two bikes and one was a 26" and one a 29" how close together would my gear inches have to be to pass the muster? If my bikes are the same size do I need to go out and buy two of each cog to make sure they're the same? What if I shear five teeth of my cog, and don't have a matching backup (I would if they were enforcing such a rule though).

Funny how laid back SS'ers (me including) can get bent out of shape on this issue. You'd think we were talking about politics.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Dirdir said:


> If people are allowed to change gears in a 24 hour event, why is that different than changing gears in a non-24 hour event. Neither is pure single speeding. The same elitists that are accusing me of not being a single speeder are themselves evil gear changers hiding behind poorly thought out rules and/or lack of formal rules.


A few posts down from this one I gave an one interpretation of why a 24 hr event is different. If you are going to insist they are the same thing, then I am interested in what you have to say about the differences I pointed out, because I think they are quite relevant.


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

kapusta said:


> A few posts down from this one I gave an one interpretation of why a 24 hr event is different. If you are going to insist they are the same thing, then I am interested in what you have to say about the differences I pointed out, because I think they are quite relevant.





kapusta said:


> 24 hr races are different in that teams don't just change bikes, but often change riders. Try that in a normal xc race. I am not too familiar with the finer details, but I assume that one rider must complete a lap before the next one begins, at a specific place. So in a way you are linking together many distinctly different segments of the race, between which very large changes (like the rider and bike) are expected to occur. Granted, some opt to go solo, but I think it could be argued that this is a race done in distinct stages.


I don't think that 24 hour races and other races are the same. Indeed, I am perfectly content with having different rules, as long as it is recognized that the rules exist simply because they exist. That is, don't get on a high horse and call me lame or a dingle-berry non-single speeding jerk just because I have a 2x2. Anyone that changes gears at a 24 hour event is doing the same damn thing I am proposing except they hide behind the rules. They are riding 2x2 or higher.

In terms of the differences you raise, none of them have a relevant nexus to the issue at hand. So what if the race is a link of segments where changes are expected. The bottom line is still the same. The winner is the one with the best time. Changing gears at the end of a lap because your legs are too tired to use the prior gear is not single speeding and the rules don't make it so.


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## pisiket (Sep 19, 2006)

anthony.delorenzo said:


> everyone is a 'gearie' unless you're riding a unicycle or maybe a penny farthing. An SS is still a geared bike, albeit only one gear.


How should we factor in the crank lengths in unicycles and penny farthings? Is a longer crank arm more gearie? Or the other way around? Unless the pedals are equal to the radius of the wheel, they are all gearie? 

Probably the first picture at this link is real singlespeeding:

http://www.pedalinghistory.com/PHhistory.html

Ali


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## EastCoast (Sep 25, 2005)

I got it - if you swap cogs in a SS race it's not singlespeed*

*unless the second cog is attached to a whole other bike 

I appreciate Kapusta's elaboration on the justification for bike swaps on 24h SS races vis-à-vis non-24h events but I am still sympathetic to DirDir's questions - why call it a SS race if an individual's gear ratio changes during the event? There doesn't seem to be a consistent principle between both events. And that's fine (again, see: Kapusta and DirDir's recent comments) but still, there's something a little 'off' about it to me.

And it would be great if some of you calmed down. And stopped using CAPS and *BOLD ITALICS* to make an argument


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## pisiket (Sep 19, 2006)

Dirdir said:


> racing a bike with many gears but only using one gear from start to finish is indeed single speeding.


Of course!

I remember reading about a race that allowed exactly that. (Can't find the link now.  ) On that race, there were some number of singlespeeders, some gearies who vowed not to shift, and some mountain unicycles (munis). Must be a non-official race?

Ali


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

pisket said:


> On that race, there were some number of singlespeeders, some gearies who vowed not to shift, and some mountain unicycles (munis).


I know that Sparrow (Tim) has organized the official/unofficial SS championship of the Black Hills near Rapid City, SD under that set of "rules". Sounded like it worked out just fine.

I'm entered in the Leadville 100 for the fourth time and I'm trying to decide whether to really go for my best time (geared) or try to break 9 hrs on a SS -- either will be a significant challenge for me. But the one thing I won't do is sign up for the SS class -- it's just part of my personal ethos. If you really are on the SS bandwagon then why not ride with everyone else? I totally respect *edemtbs* for his effort last year at the Laramie Enduro, where he would have won the SS class by almost 30 minutes if he'd signed up for it -- instead he settled for 11th out of 55 in Pro/Expert (and 13th overall out of about 250). I say bag the equipment-based class and ride what makes you happiest/fastest/safest/smuggest...


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## pisiket (Sep 19, 2006)

PeT said:


> If you really are on the SS bandwagon then why not ride with everyone else?


Good one...  I've been thinking about that for a while myself and I agree with it actually.

Ali


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

PeT said:


> I say bag the equipment-based class and ride what makes you happiest/fastest/safest/smuggest...


I'll race gearies if there is no SS class, but I feel differently about the inclusion of a separate SS class. What I love about it is there is no hiding. No rider assessed ability type classes (expert, sport, beginner), no age groups, just everybody on a relatively even playing field. 
One rider, one course, one gear (or in the case of the OP-two gears)


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Someone make a sticker for Dirdir's bike that says, "Two f*cking speeds."


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

Nat said:


> Someone make a sticker for Dirdir's bike that says, "Two f*cking speeds."


I was thinking a jersey.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Nat said:


> Someone make a sticker for Dirdir's bike that says, "Two f*cking speeds."


not to nit pick.... but since he's running a 2x2 shouldnt it be "phore phuking speeds" ?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Dirdir said:


> I don't think that 24 hour races and other races are the same. Indeed, I am perfectly content with having different rules, as long as it is recognized that the rules exist simply because they exist. That is, don't get on a high horse and call me lame or a dingle-berry non-single speeding jerk just because I have a 2x2. Anyone that changes gears at a 24 hour event is doing the same damn thing I am proposing except they hide behind the rules. They are riding 2x2 or higher.
> 
> In terms of the differences you raise, none of them have a relevant nexus to the issue at hand. So what if the race is a link of segments where changes are expected. The bottom line is still the same. The winner is the one with the best time. Changing gears at the end of a lap because your legs are too tired to use the prior gear is not single speeding and the rules don't make it so.


_So what if the race is a link of segments where changes are expected._

What do you mean "so what"? THAT is the relavent part. These types of changes or not expected in a normal xc race. THAT is the difference. I'm not understanding what part of that you don't get.

_ Changing gears at the end of a lap because your legs are too tired to use the prior gear is not single speeding and the rules don't make it so_

That's like saying that because they use their hands, a goalie is not a true soccer player, and they are just hiding behind the rules when they do so. Changing equipment is permitted for everyone, why would it be different for a ss'er? I'm sure if enough people have an issue with ss'er changing bikes then there will be a class devoted to ss'er that cannot change gearing, but that will also entail not changing ANY equipment if it is going to be meaningful. That's just not the way most 24hr races are run. If you have a 24hr race that is intended to be unsupported, then I would agree that changing bikes and/or gearing is not in the spirit. But that is simply not the case with the races we are refering to.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> No rider assessed ability type classes (expert, sport, beginner), no age groups, just everybody on a relatively even playing field.


That's certainly a valid point of view, but I'd still not like to group folks based on equipment choice. In XC ski racing we're always calculating "percentage back" of the winner (or the average of the top three places), and that really let's you know how you're progressing. In ski marathon results we get stuck into age groups and all, but everyone is much more interested in their "percent back" than in age group placing. I've carried that over to cycling and care about "percent back" and my overall placement more than age or ability group placing. Face it -- age, ability class, clyde class (the absolute lamest excuse for a category in my opinion), and SS class are just built in excuse-makers, an extension of the "self-esteem" movement. I have a female friend who is a kick-ass skier and runner and while gladly accepting swag fro winning the female side of the race bracket, she'll still measure her performance against the people who beat her -- male or female. So -- I vote for "no categories" and checking your need for validation at the door, (But as soon as the marathon nationals add a category for rigid-single-speeds-ridden-by-middle-aged-left-handed-balding-red-heads, I'm there!)

(Caveat -- I don't know if any of you have ever road raced, but you do want to group people by experience there as nothing's more dangerous than a strong novice rider trying to hang in a large field. Sometimes grouping by experience makes sense for safety reasons. But "ego-preservation" is not a valid reason...)


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## skidmark (Mar 9, 2004)

Dirdir said:


> Also, I want everyone to fess up and admit if they have changed gears in a 24 hour event.


I'll fess up and admit that at this years 24HITOP I changed from my 16t after three laps and used an 18t for the next two. However this was done in the pits when my other team-mates were out doing their laps, NOT out on the course mid-lap. All the other members of my team did so also, as did some of the racers on the two teams that finished ahead of us, and I'm sure that many other racers,solo and team did so as well. If there was a specific rule stating that no gearing changes were allowed, then I'd like to think that everyone(including myself) would have the integrity not to change gearing, but since this is virtually un-enforceable short of NASCAR/F1 style tech inspections, I don't see it happening. If I was running solo I don't think I would have the energy to be bothered with switching cogs.

So, my personal take: changing gearing in the pits at a 24=O.K., switching gearing mid-lap or mid-race on a xc/single lap/point to point/self supported race=Not O.K.

So I'm not a purist and maybe a hypocrite? Maybe, but I can live with it.


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

kapusta said:


> _So what if the race is a link of segments where changes are expected._
> 
> What do you mean "so what"? THAT is the relavent part. These types of changes or not expected in a normal xc race. THAT is the difference. I'm not understanding what part of that you don't get.


I get it. 24 hour races are not the same as short XC races. However, there is nothing about 24 hour races logically related to allowing gear changes vs. not allowing them in short XC races. The only reasoning is that that is the rule and the expectation. Changing a gear after a lap is still changing a gear mid-race no matter how you slice it.

I'd like to put this thread to an end by stating that my 2x2 proposal would not be single speeding and would be cheating if I entered the single speed division. However, I stand by my contention that changing gears after a lap in a 24 race is also not single speeding. I understand the arguments of the other side, buy my position is legitimate even if you don't agree with it.

If this still makes some people butt sore, so be it. But, please know that even if you change a gear, I consider you no less studly.


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

*I dont know...*



slobiker said:


> "Can someone please step up and explain why it is still single speeding to change gears in a 24 hour race but it is not single speeding to change gears in another race?"


I guess MY answer is this: I don't make the rules for other people, but I do reserve the right to formulate an opinion and ideals. I own one gear for my bike. I could not change it unless I buy more cogs etc. I don't buy more cogs etc. because I choose to ride one gear, and I feel good about my accomplishments. I race sometimes, and would not consider changing gears in or outside of a race. Because I don't make the rules and can not dictate ethics for others, I will shut up...but deep down I will feel superior for conquering the course with ONE GEAR.

If you can enter into a competition that specifies "single speed", change gears mid race, not get DQed for the action, win the race, AND feel good about it....go ahead. I won't let it bother me, I gage my success in other ways.

slobiker, I am not lashing out at you...I honestly can not explain these (24 hr race) rules. This response is an attempt to explain MY rules. I think you and others understand what I am saying. I am not asking anyone to agree with me, I just want to help some people understand what SSing is all about for me.


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## pacman (Jan 16, 2004)

Dirdir said:


> This is good. Thank god someone got it, and another lawyer no less.
> 
> I don't believe that the rules should allow gear changes, even at the end of a lap, but your argument is a legitmate one used to justify the different rules.


In a 24H race a dustbowl can unexpectedly change into a mudfest. If you allow tire swaps (or anything else) in the pit to adapt to new conditions why not allow gear changes too?
You still have to ride each lap with no changes - tires, suspension, cranks, or gears.

OK lawyer dudes, can I keep the same gear-inches but change crank length?


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## slobiker (Nov 9, 2006)

pacman said:


> In a 24H race a dustbowl can unexpectedly change into a mudfest. If you allow tire swaps (or anything else) in the pit to adapt to new conditions why not allow gear changes too?
> You still have to ride each lap with no changes - tires, suspension, cranks, or gears.
> 
> OK lawyer dudes, can I keep the same gear-inches but change crank length?


If you read my whole post I am actually disagreeing with Dirdr and making roughly the same point you are. I didn' t "get it" becuase I agreed with him but becuase I understood the question he was actually asking

As far as my legal opinion as to whether you can change crank length, that depends whether you hire me or not


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*I hate to enter this but..*



slobiker said:


> "Can someone please step up and explain why it is still single speeding to change gears in a 24 hour race but it is not single speeding to change gears in another race?"
> 
> For the sake of argument (and as another lawyer) i'll take a shot. In a 24 hour race gears are change at the pits which are located at the start/end point of each lap. Thus you must choose a gear that you will do the entire lap with. Since you are doing the entire lap with one gear (ie the up and the down) you must push a harder gear up the hills to gain an advantage on the downhill, or you lose the ability to pedal faster on the downhills in order to push a lower gear on the uphills.
> 
> What you are proposing is to have a lower gear on the uphills and then change at the top of the hill to have a higher gear on the downhill. This is inherently different than changing gears at the start of a loop course where the net elevation gain is goint to be zero (ie you end where you started) From my perspective this this circumvents the point of the single speed racing (get as strong as you can so you can push a higher gear uphill and still pedal in the downhill) in a way that changing gears at the start of a lap does not


This arguement doesn't work either. The Sea Otter SS course in one lap for beginner/sport, two laps for expert/pro. I don't know if this is typical @ other SS races, but nowhere in the rules does it say you can change your gears after one lap. I'm surprised that no one has brought up the point that 12/24 races are entirely different just as Cyclcross is different. The point of the race is not how fast you can ride a given distance, but how far you can ride in a given time. Since the object of the race is different, it seems logical to me that the rules would be different.

1G1G, Brad


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## wunderhorn (May 13, 2005)

If I may summarize this thread, the consensus is that this is like Chuck Robb or Bill Clinton saying they didn't cheat or have sex. There is no rule technicality that gets you out of loyalty to one thing (a principle any reasonable person can understand without reference to a technical definition; in this case loyalty to a cog-and-chainring instead of a ball-and-chain), just because you really, really want it. In short, running a 2x2 in a SS race is like getting a blow job from an intern outside of wedlock. I think that should settle everything now.


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## clarkgriswald (Dec 19, 2003)

*Easy solution...*

Dirdir can start with four distinct, single speed bikes. Ride one with the gearing needed for the current section of the course, while carrying, on his person or with an attached trailer, the other three distinct, single speed bikes. Then swap bikes/gear ratios as needed. But he must cross finish line with all four bikes.

Wouldn't be violating the spirit of competition that way.

Aren't lawyers responsible for getting warning/instuctions put on everyday items? Like ladders, power tools, toothe brushes, hair spray and such. If so, is it no wonder he has to post that question on more than one forum? He's just being a lawyer. Kinda like a skunk being a skunk. It's what they do. It is who they are.


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## slobiker (Nov 9, 2006)

unit said:


> I guess MY answer is this: I don't make the rules for other people, but I do reserve the right to formulate an opinion and ideals. I own one gear for my bike. I could not change it unless I buy more cogs etc. I don't buy more cogs etc. because I choose to ride one gear, and I feel good about my accomplishments. I race sometimes, and would not consider changing gears in or outside of a race. Because I don't make the rules and can not dictate ethics for others, I will shut up...but deep down I will feel superior for conquering the course with ONE GEAR.
> 
> If you can enter into a competition that specifies "single speed", change gears mid race, not get DQed for the action, win the race, AND feel good about it....go ahead. I won't let it bother me, I gage my success in other ways.
> 
> slobiker, I am not lashing out at you...I honestly can not explain these (24 hr race) rules. This response is an attempt to explain MY rules. I think you and others understand what I am saying. I am not asking anyone to agree with me, I just want to help some people understand what SSing is all about for me.


No worries about lashing out at me, the quote is the question from one of Dirdir posts and I was just trying to give a different perspective on it. For the record I think any person racing in any single speed event should do the whole race with only one gear ratio


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## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

clarkgriswald said:


> Dirdir can start with four distinct, single speed bikes. Ride one with the gearing needed for the current section of the course, while carrying, on his person or with an attached trailer, the other three distinct, single speed bikes. Then swap bikes/gear ratios as needed. But he must cross finish line with all four bikes.
> 
> Wouldn't be violating the spirit of competition that way.
> 
> Aren't lawyers responsible for getting warning/instuctions put on everyday items? Like ladders, power tools, toothe brushes, hair spray and such. If so, is it no wonder he has to post that question on more than one forum? He's just being a lawyer. Kinda like a skunk being a skunk. It's what they do. It is who they are.


    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## wunderhorn (May 13, 2005)

clarkgriswald said:


> He's just being a lawyer. Kinda like a skunk being a skunk. It's what they do. It is who they are.


That seems kinda' harsh. Maybe you know him and are just teasing.


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## slobiker (Nov 9, 2006)

aka brad said:


> This arguement doesn't work either. The Sea Otter SS course in one lap for beginner/sport, two laps for expert/pro. I don't know if this is typical @ other SS races, but nowhere in the rules does it say you can change your gears after one lap. I'm surprised that no one has brought up the point that 12/24 races are entirely different just as Cyclcross is different. The point of the race is not how fast you can ride a given distance, but how far you can ride in a given time. Since the object of the race is different, it seems logical to me that the rules would be different.
> 
> 1G1G, Brad


I understand what you are saying about 12/24 hour races being different from a typicial cross-country race and I think it is an excellent point. However, this doesn't explain why a 12/24 hour race would allow a rider to switch to a bike with a different gear ratio when that person is riding in a single speed class.

I personally think a person riding in any single speed race should do the whole race with one gear ration. As to Dirdir's original questions about what the rules allow, I don't know. Even if switching gears is techincally allowed under the "letter of the law" it certaintly seems to violate the "spirit of the law" in a single speed race


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## slobiker (Nov 9, 2006)

clarkgriswald said:


> Aren't lawyers responsible for getting warning/instuctions put on everyday items? Like ladders, power tools, toothe brushes, hair spray and such. If so, is it no wonder he has to post that question on more than one forum? He's just being a lawyer. Kinda like a skunk being a skunk. It's what they do. It is who they are.


Yes, lawyers are responsible for these warnings/snstructions along with the idiots who hurt themselves and choose to sue. A plaintiff once sued harley-davidson alleging that his fatboy was defective becuase it was to wide and that cause him to get side swiped. Fortunatly the idiot lost the case becuase there were good lawyers on the defense side. So while some lawyers are the skunks, others get to be skunk killers.

Having said that, have you heard that scientist are now using lawyers instead of rats for experiments? 
.
.
.
.
The scientist get less attached to the lawyers and it turns out there are certain things even rats won't do. 

edit: all the above said in jest, I am a lawyer


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## clarkgriswald (Dec 19, 2003)

*Teasing a little.*

Met him once, briefly, at one of Sring Fling parties two years ago. Seemed pretty quiet.



wunderhorn said:


> That seems kinda' harsh. Maybe you know him and are just teasing.


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

clarkgriswald said:


> Met him once, briefly, at one of Sring Fling parties two years ago. Seemed pretty quiet.


For the record, I have attended only one Spring Fling event and it was a ride, not a party. I am very quiet. I did not start the other post in the AZ forum, it was started by Skinny-Tire, and I was upset that he did so. And, this thread has nothing to do with my profession. I have no idea why some people think that they can discredit someone's stance or position on an issue by chalking it up to them being a lawyer.


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## shishku (Jun 29, 2006)

Dirdir said:


> For the record, I have attended only one Spring Fling event and it was a ride, not a party. I am very quiet. I did not start the other post in the AZ forum, it was started by Skinny-Tire, and I was upset that he did so. And, this thread has nothing to do with my profession. I have no idea why some people think that they can discredit someone's stance or position on an issue by chalking it up to them being a lawyer.


Because only a lawyer would have to have everything in writing or else he will try and find a way to cheat anything. I can't stand the way everything we do has so many "rules" because of people like you. Maybe they should just have a lawyer category so you guys can race each other on whatever you want, and then have some fun litigation instead of a beer afterwards.


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## SoloRider (Aug 6, 2004)

Dirdir said:


> For the record, I have attended only one Spring Fling event and it was a ride, not a party. I am very quiet. I did not start the other post in the AZ forum, it was started by Skinny-Tire, and I was upset that he did so. And, this thread has nothing to do with my profession. I have no idea why some people think that they can discredit someone's stance or position on an issue by chalking it up to them being a lawyer.


Oh yeah, I'm sorry. I forgot to mention that I show up to public events pretending to be you. I find that it's easier than being me. Usually I give it up for lent, but two years ago I just kept on keepin' on.

Seriously though, I think it's time for this thread to die. The debate has been wrung out and I think Dirdir has learned his lesson. Try out inflammatory thread in the home forum first, if Walt posts the only reply your ready for the rest of the SS world.


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## SoloRider (Aug 6, 2004)

shishku said:


> Because only a lawyer would have to have everything in writing or else he will try and find a way to cheat anything. I can't stand the way everything we do has so many "rules" because of people like you. Maybe they should just have a lawyer category so you guys can race each other on whatever you want, and then have some fun litigation instead of a beer afterwards.


I'm not sure if your trying to come across as funny or an ass.

BTW, it's the latter.


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## clarkgriswald (Dec 19, 2003)

*Sorry...My mistake*

Must have been someone else.

You're mindset and how you solve problems, in your work life and personal life, are influenced by your profession. I don't think you can separate the two. How you've responded to the critsim clearly demonstates that.



Dirdir said:


> For the record, I have attended only one Spring Fling event and it was a ride, not a party. I am very quiet. I did not start the other post in the AZ forum, it was started by Skinny-Tire, and I was upset that he did so. And, this thread has nothing to do with my profession. I have no idea why some people think that they can discredit someone's stance or position on an issue by chalking it up to them being a lawyer.


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## shishku (Jun 29, 2006)

SoloRider said:


> I'm not sure if your trying to come across as funny or an ass.
> 
> BTW, it's the latter.


Settle down big boy. I am sure they will have a clyde/lawyer class for you as well.:thumbsup:


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*Spirt of the law/ letter of the law..*



slobiker said:


> I understand what you are saying about 12/24 hour races being different from a typicial cross-country race and I think it is an excellent point. However, this doesn't explain why a 12/24 hour race would allow a rider to switch to a bike with a different gear ratio when that person is riding in a single speed class.
> 
> I personally think a person riding in any single speed race should do the whole race with one gear ration. As to Dirdir's original questions about what the rules allow, I don't know. Even if switching gears is techincally allowed under the "letter of the law" it certaintly seems to violate the "spirit of the law" in a single speed race


Be still my law enforcement heart. First lets not dismiss the difference between timed and distance races. Actually the difference between the two is significant. In a 12/24 race, each lap is an event unto itself, in a timed cross counrty race, laps have no meaning beyond a means to the finish line; i.e, it doesn't matter how many laps you complete, if you don't finish it's a DNF. In a 12/24 hour race many riders stop and take naps! It is a different world.

Now, let's first look at the "spirt of the law". Why would you be allowed to switch bikes? Okay, this is an endurance race. An educated guess would be that it is in anticipation of equipment failure. So rather than be penalized by faulty equipment, the rule makers have decided to let you switch out equipment, so the status of the athlete plays a more important role than that of his equipment. What, you mean singlespeed plays no part in the spirt of the law? Yes my son, the rules of endurance races could care less about how many gears are on your drive train. So it's not really about the spirt of the law, it's about the ride. Imagine that.

Brad


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

shishku said:


> Settle down big boy. I am sure they will have a clyde/lawyer class for you as well.:thumbsup:


Yeah, definitely the ass...


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## bikerideAZ (Apr 8, 2007)

Race in the geared category if you plan on shifting and stop looking for someone to try to agree with you. It's pretty effing simple really or at least you're pretty effing simple minded.


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## BrandonNorCal (Sep 16, 2006)

*If you have to ask....*

you'll never know.


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## slobiker (Nov 9, 2006)

aka brad said:


> Be still my law enforcement heart. First lets not dismiss the difference between timed and distance races. Actually the difference between the two is significant. In a 12/24 race, each lap is an event unto itself, in a timed cross counrty race, laps have no meaning beyond a means to the finish line; i.e, it doesn't matter how many laps you complete, if you don't finish it's a DNF. In a 12/24 hour race many riders stop and take naps! It is a different world.
> 
> Now, let's first look at the "spirt of the law". Why would you be allowed to switch bikes? Okay, this is an endurance race. An educated guess would be that it is in anticipation of equipment failure. So rather than be penalized by faulty equipment, the rule makers have decided to let you switch out equipment, so the status of the athlete plays a more important role than that of his equipment. What, you mean singlespeed plays no part in the spirt of the law? Yes my son, the rules of endurance races could care less about how many gears are on your drive train. So it's not really about the spirt of the law, it's about the ride. Imagine that.
> 
> Brad


I absolutely agree with you unless the endurance race has a single speed class and an open class. If there are seperate classes and you are participating in an endurance race in the single speed class I think you should do the whole race with on gear ratio. regardless fo what the rules allow.

Unless that is what you were saying in which case I just agree with you.

Ah the joys of trying to communicate in internet forums


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## FODM (Dec 24, 2006)

*This has been illuminating*

I used to think the Singlespeed forum was frequented by a pretty laid-back bunch. Now it seems increasingly like all the other boards, full of childish insult and unearned bravado. Shame.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

*Common sense...*

...tells me that it's OK to change the cog on a SS between laps of a 24-hour race, but it's not OK to change your cog during a "point-to-point" (or however you define it) event.

That seems to be generally accepted, which perhaps makes it common law. Seems clear to me what is "right" and what is "wrong."

To argue otherwise, in order to justify or rationalize, just sets you going away from using common sense.

P.S. - I know Didir, and like Dirdir, and ride with Dirdir, but I strongly disagree with Dirdir on this.


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## tvrbob86 (Aug 5, 2005)

waltaz said:


> Common sense tells me that it's OK to change the cog on a SS between laps of a 24-hour race, but it's not OK to change your cog during a "point-to-point" (or however you define it) event.


Common sense tells _me_ that one would use _one gear_ in _any_ _single_speed race. It's only from the experienced racers posting here that I know that not to be the case. Common sense has nothing to do with it.



waltaz said:


> That seems to be generally accepted, which perhaps makes it common law. Seems clear to me what is "right" and what is "wrong."


True. If _everyone_ is aware of what the rules are, it's not wrong to operate within those rules.



waltaz said:


> To argue otherwise, in order to justify or rationalize, just sets you going away from using common sense.


Not at all. I'd say that it's moving back _towards_ common sense. But again, if that's common practice or "common law," I won't argue _for_ or _against_ it. It just is.


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## mon t (Jan 19, 2004)

*points for dirdir*

look here man, a few issues that somehow got unspoken in this thread include:

1. nobody EVER does a race with one speed. your inner tube loses air over the coarse of a race, the tire sags, and so you finish with a lower gear than you started. or, perhaps you change a flat, and over-inflate the new tube and so finish with a higher gear than you started.

2. since #1 is true, it makes sense to basically go for the most simple application of what "enforceable" or in keeping with the intent of SS and say that any mechanical altering of gearing is outside that intent.

3. since 24 hour racing involves the unique use of multiple bikes, it makes sense to relax a wee mite further, given no's 1 and 2. see - your second bike is NEVER going to have the same gear as your first bike. different tires, maybe it is a 29er, maybe it is a cyclocross bike. even it it was a replica bike, its tire pressure would be off from the other bike. hence, it is the second bike concept which makes 24 racing different - and that is acceptable by most as practical and still within the intent of the SS concept. second bikes are NOT allowed in shorter mtn bike races, and so it follows that the rules there would be a bit tighter.

4. to summarize, IMHO of course - you would be pushing it by even having a 2x2 available on any one bike, in either event. it is a multi-gear bike, after all. to go ahead and use that gearing change on the bike is to utilize that multi-gear option, and is well outside the intent of SS racing in either race.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

mon t said:


> look here man, a few issues that somehow got unspoken in this thread include:
> 
> 1. nobody EVER does a race with one speed. your inner tube loses air over the coarse of a race, the tire sags, and so you finish with a lower gear than you started. or, perhaps you change a flat, and over-inflate the new tube and so finish with a higher gear than you started.


i think its fairly obvious why this wasnt mentioned in the thread.


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

mon t: *nobody EVER does a race with one speed. your inner tube loses air over the coarse of a race, the tire sags, and so you finish with a lower gear than you started.*

Aha, that is why last year I started with 32:18 and when I finished I could have sworn that it felt more like 32:18.0000000000000000000000001.


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## mon t (Jan 19, 2004)

"#1" was meant to go with the rest of them, mono, to illustrate a broader point. nice work hacking that single aspect outta that context, and critiquing it on its own. it was intended to be outrageous or extreme to help make that point. get it?

jeezus - i was even on your side. 

pretty rough crowd around here these days, for a bunch of singlespeeders. i had no idea this is what things had come to. carry on. see you at the races !!


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

serious said:


> mon t: *nobody EVER does a race with one speed. your inner tube loses air over the coarse of a race, the tire sags, and so you finish with a lower gear than you started.*
> 
> Aha, that is why last year I started with 32:18 and when I finished I could have sworn that it felt more like 32:18.0000000000000000000000001.


CHEATER! :madmax:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

mon t said:


> "#1" was meant to go with the rest of them, mono, to illustrate a broader point. nice work hacking that single aspect outta that context, and critiquing it on its own.
> 
> jeezus - i was even on your side.
> 
> pretty rough crowd around here these days, for a bunch of singlespeeders. i had no idea this is what things had come to. carry on. see you at the races !!


chill, winston....

IMHO the minute infinitesimal fraction of a difference this "gearing change" would cause is wholly and entirely irrelevant to the thread. variance in wheel circumference caused by tire deformation due to trail imperfections or pedal load, drivetrain stretch, frame flexation, and the resulting 1/100th to 1/1000th of a gear inch increase or decrease is, for all intents and purposes, NOT a gearing change.

what is in question is why he cant MANUALLY change gears in a singlespeed race. he apparently thinks that there is a difference between a der changing the gearing and stopping to manually change the gearing.

then he wants to argue another completely irrelevant point by comparing a xc race to a 24 race. its like comparing apples to pigs knuckles.

to his CREDIT.... dirdir must be one helluva lawyer, cuz he really reaches for the inane, obtuse, and irrelevant to try to make his case. id want him at my table if i was before the judge.

anyway... if youre seeking to be literal to illustrate a point then perhaps go with the point that freewheeling singlespeeds really arent singlespeeds. they have 2 gears (or speeds)... drive and neutral.

so if you REALLY want to be a singlespeed purist then ride fixie in the dirt.


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*A cop and a lawyer on the same page?*



slobiker said:


> I absolutely agree with you unless the endurance race has a single speed class and an open class. If there are seperate classes and you are participating in an endurance race in the single speed class I think you should do the whole race with on gear ratio. regardless fo what the rules allow.
> 
> Unless that is what you were saying in which case I just agree with you.
> 
> Ah the joys of trying to communicate in internet forums


 This can not be; I could lose my stripes!! Maybe it was all those years in the Detective Bureau. Trivia question. Who said, "Why can't we all just get along?"

Brad

PS. Why did the lion eat elephant dung?


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*No, No, No..*



monogod said:


> anyway... if youre seeking to be literal to illustrate a point then perhaps go with the point that freewheeling singlespeeds really arent singlespeeds. they have 2 gears (or speeds)... drive and neutral.
> 
> so if you REALLY want to be a singlespeed purist then ride fixie in the dirt.


Neutral is the absense of gears; I have a zero and I'm not afraid to use it.:aureola:

Brad


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

aka brad said:


> Neutral is the absense of gears; I have a zero and I'm not afraid to use it.:aureola:
> 
> Brad


so when i shift my m.t. jetta into neutral all 6 gears disappear?

where do they go???


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*apples and pigs knuckles*



monogod said:


> so when i shift my m.t. jetta into neutral all 6 gears disappear?
> 
> where do they go???


When's the last time you shifted into neutral on your singlespeed.

Brad


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

The argument that it is not true SS if you change gears in a 24 hour race is 100% legit. One can disagree, but to assert that the argument is illegitmate is simply absurd. I suspect these people are having cognitive dissonance issues.


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

SoloRider said:


> I think Dirdir has learned his lesson ...


Dude, I have learned a few things.

1. There are a lot of dicks on MTBR with superiority complexes. Thankfully, you are not one of them. 
2. Many people like to blame lawyers for all sorts of problems when instead they should be looking in the mirror.
3. If I really was a cheat, why would I post the initial question in the first palce? 
4. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." 
5. I continue to maintain that even if I do make lame comments from time to time, or all the time, or whenever, I almost never make negative comments directed at one person. However, I probably should make an exception for shishku.

6. WE ARE SPAAARTAAAAA!!!!!!!!!


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

aka brad said:


> When's the last time you shifted into neutral on your singlespeed.
> 
> Brad


every time i coast


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## slobiker (Nov 9, 2006)

aka brad said:


> This can not be; I could lose my stripes!! Maybe it was all those years in the Detective Bureau. Trivia question. Who said, "Why can't we all just get along?"
> 
> Brad
> 
> PS. Why did the lion eat elephant dung?


Rodney King

As to your second question, I have no idea

Finally, if it makes you feel any better about us being on the same board, I did intern in two seperate DA's offices duirng law school


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## tomimcmillar (Oct 27, 2005)

monogod said:


> .......
> 
> anyway... if youre seeking to be literal to illustrate a point then perhaps go with the point that freewheeling singlespeeds really arent singlespeeds. they have 2 gears (or speeds)... drive and neutral.
> 
> so if you REALLY want to be a singlespeed purist then ride fixie in the dirt.


uhmmm, just picking nits here, but fixies also have two 'gears'

forward *&* reverse. 
:thumbsup:


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## Cycle64 (Nov 10, 2004)

Dude ride what you want and how you want! Go up North have a great time riding and enjoy the day with the wife and kids. If the elites want to pull your time. Heck you did not care in the first place.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

tomimcmillar said:


> uhmmm, just picking nits here, but fixies also have two 'gears'
> 
> forward *&* reverse.
> :thumbsup:


wow, youre picking nits???? what a surprise tomi...  but we'd expect nothing less than catty behavior from a dude that spells his name like a topless dancer with an "i" instead of a "y". :lol:

seriously though tomi... you confuse direction of travel with "gears". yes, fixies can be pedaled in two different directions, but they still only have one gear. the direction of travel depends not on the gear, but direction of motor input.

perhaps it would be easier to grasp to think of it as a one gear direct drive transmission without a clutch. you dont change gears or shift the transmission into reverse, in fact the transmission has absolutely nothing to do with it. rather, you change how the motor acts upon the transmission.

motor turns one way, transmission transmits the movement to the rear wheel turning it forward. motor turns the opposite way, transmission transmits the movement to the rear wheel turning it in the opposite direction. it is the motor input that dictates direction of rotation, not the transmission. transmission effects nothing and is static.

hence... ONE gear. :thumbsup:


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## long hazy daze (Oct 19, 2005)

Totally Lame. :madmax: 

If ya can't hang with the rest of the ss'ers using only one gear, then why bother? :madman: 

You'll likely just end up looking like an a$$hole to the SS'ers and the gearies. :thumbsup:


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## long hazy daze (Oct 19, 2005)

*It's Single Speed cat. Not Dingle Speed!*



Dirdir said:


> This is truly funny. I never once argued that riding a 2x2 = single speed, yet many of you here seem to think that is what I am saying. It is not single speed. I know that.
> 
> My point was simple. If one is allowed to change gears in the single speed category of a 24 hour event, then why can't someone do the same thing in a non 24 hour race? The only answer of any meaning to this question is "because the rules allow it." Fine, but my point was, regardless of what the rules say, what is the difference? I say there is none.
> 
> ...


I wasn't aware that was allowed. But in the case of a 24 hr race I can see why. How long is the race you want to dinglespeed? 3-4 laps, 2-3 hrs, tops? How can you compare that to a 24 hr endurace race? If you need to gear down because you been pumping away for 12 hrs with 12 to go, sure...do what you have to do to _survive_, literally. 24 hr races are about endurance and survival. A regular XC race is about going the fastest for a substantially shorter period of time.

I see your point, but certainly you can understand why it would be lame to try to pull such shenanigans in a regular SS cat. XC race? What's the purpose, really? Are you doing it just because you can't find a rule that says you can't? Are are you doing it because you truly can't handle the course with a single gear? Are you trying to prove a point? If you're not trying to place then why bother with the gear change?

The SS'er will be saying "look at the pu$$y changing his gears...what's the matter, couldn't handle a single speed? Run what ya brung A-hole!", the gearies will be saying "look at the pu$$y SS'er that *had* to bring some gears, what, couldn't handle a single speed? hahaha..."

Ability and circumstance to do something is not a proper justification (see "Dubya"). I just don't see the point, and most likely you're going to look like a chump to the actual racers out there.


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## mtnbikeking (Oct 2, 2005)

*Quick question*

This may have already been answered, I didn't read all the posts. But if I am racing a SS in the SS category and during the race break my rear chain ring but I happen to have another ring in my camel back but it is not the same size, If I fix the break to continue the race is it cheating because I am not running the same gear as I started? should I DQ myself?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

*this is where snarky answers originate...*



mtnbikeking said:


> This may have already been answered, I didn't read all the posts. But if I am racing a SS in the SS category and during the race break my rear chain ring but I happen to have another ring in my camel back but it is not the same size, If I fix the break to continue the race is it cheating because I am not running the same gear as I started? should I DQ myself?


um.... your REAR cog, or your FRONT chainring?

let me guess.... youre NOT a single speeder, are you??? :lol:

assuming that a ss'er broke their cog, theyd also need to "happen to have" a cassette lock ring remover, wrench, and chainwhip in their camelbak as well.


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## mtnbikeking (Oct 2, 2005)

nope not a single speeder... don't you all carry chain whips and lock rings?


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## climbbikeskione (May 28, 2006)

*Truly sad this post has this much trafiic...me included!*

WTF? Sorry but it's this simple...You have no right entering the SS category after asking such a question! We may only ride one gear but we have our principles....Keep this in mind for all future life questions..."If the choice at hand raises questions in your mind...It's not the right one!"


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## climbbikeskione (May 28, 2006)

*Didir not so smart*



FODM said:


> A "one way street" means you can only go "one way." Period. Not "one way at a time."


How about: Dirdir = Jackass SS=one gear


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## Cycle64 (Nov 10, 2004)

It's a public forum where questions are asked. So freaking relax dude! If this a single speed category and performance related! Why not require all to run the same gear ratio period. That would be a true SS event for all competitors.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

long hazy daze said:


> Totally Lame. :madmax:
> 
> If ya can't hang with the rest of the ss'ers using only one gear, then why bother? :madman:
> 
> You'll likely just end up looking like an a$$hole to the SS'ers and the gearies. :thumbsup:


This thread has gotten totally lame because people don't bother reading it, so they keep saying the same thing over and over when the OP has long ago agreed that it was a bad idea.


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*Depends on the DA..*



slobiker said:


> Rodney King
> 
> As to your second question, I have no idea
> 
> Finally, if it makes you feel any better about us being on the same board, I did intern in two seperate DA's offices duirng law school


 I know most lawyers live and die by trial victories but some battles still need to be fought. Why did the lion eat elephant dung? To get the taste of lawyer out of his mouth. 



mtnbikeking said:


> This may have already been answered, I didn't read all the posts. But if I am racing a SS in the SS category and during the race break my rear chain ring but I happen to have another ring in my camel back but it is not the same size, If I fix the break to continue the race is it cheating because I am not running the same gear as I started? should I DQ myself?


If you where one of the first 10 or so that are really racing, I'm guessing DQ or not, your race result will not be an issue. My opinion is anyone with the forsight of carrying an extra chainring deserves the time he gets ("This may have already been answered"; now that's funny:lol: ); since it will never happen in our lifetime , I would suspect that it's a non-issue.

Brad


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## bui (Mar 16, 2007)




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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

climbbikeskione said:


> How about: Dirdir = Jackass SS=one gear


Wow! It took you only 8 posts to learn how to be a d!ck. Perhaps you were already one before you got here.

And yes, you are truly sad.


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

*Not Cheating, But still a Pu$$y*

I was surpirsed by some of the nasty comments I received in this thread. Well, I have decided not to cheat. I will be running a single gear in the race. However, some single speeders are still attacking me. Why? I have decided to run a 32x23 on my 29er. Apparently, some people have told me this is weak and that I am pu$$y. Oh well. Nice crowd single speeders are.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dirdir said:


> Well, I have decided not to cheat.


sounds like you knew the answer all along... :madman:


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## Klooginator (Jun 9, 2006)

Wow, Reading this thread really put a positive light on the SS community.
*sarcasm face*


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