# Having issues getting my front wheel up for Manuals and Wheelies



## TheHuth (Jul 22, 2015)

I've been watching some good videos on youtube. They moves some very straightforward. In both cases its all about shifting your weight as far back as possible. But I'm having a major issue with both. I'm barely able to do a wheelie, and am finding it impossible to do a manual. For the manual I can only get the wheel about a half off the ground. It doesnt matter how far back I move my weight.

I'm a short guy. I come in at 5'7" and 140lbs. I am riding an older Klein hard tail thats a 17.5" frame. For all intents and purposes, it should be an appropriate frame size.

Anyone have any thoughts on what I could be doing wrong?

Edit - Also one note. I lowered my seat as low as it would go for practice today.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

How much time have you spent on it?

Made any modifications to facilitate it?

I'm the first to admit I can't hit the balance point for either of these moves. Several years ago, I spent an hour or two in each of a few sessions practicing, and I found it very helpful. It doesn't just magically happen - I spent a couple practice sessions on it, and some decent time in each. I should revisit the project, but have to admit it bored me a little - I'd rather be riding. However, I think it did improve my riding a lot.

I used flat pedals and dropped my saddle a couple inches to practice. I found dropping it all the way kind of weird, at least for wheelies. But definitely drop it below your usual pedaling height.


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## TheHuth (Jul 22, 2015)

I'm definitely going to hire an instructor in a couple of weeks. I'd really like someone to show me exactly what to do and what I'm doing wrong My only concern now though is; is a medium size frame too big for me?

Sorry, didnt answer your first question. How much time have I spent on it? I've only picked back up riding for about a month. Used to ride lots when I was young, and rode dirt bikes when I got older. But I've been out of the game for 10+ years. And I dont think I ever had the proper technique previously.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I was asking you something one would answer more along the lines of "twenty minutes, once" or "an hour a day, all week."

Could you wheelie when you were younger?

I don't know if your frame is too big. Does it feel like it's too big? A frame the right size, and set up well for you, would give you a lot of range of motion and let you get behind your saddle without feeling cramped. You should also be able to take your hands off the bars without having to change your position radically.


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## Lou Z. Ryder (Sep 9, 2014)

What do you mean by "wheelie?" I mean, are you trying to get the front tire over obstacles or are you trying to show off how rad you are?


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## TheHuth (Jul 22, 2015)

I see what you're saying. I've only spent maybe 15 minutes a day for the last few days practicing. I understand I'll need to spend allot more time. But my thought is that these moves should be more of a finesse thing. Basically I should be able to thrust my weight back and the front end should come up pretty easily. Its the finesse that would take time to build up where I could control it better. Since I've been pretty much unable to get the front end up at all, I'm wondering if I'm doing something very wrong, or if the bike is just not set up properly.

For the bike size, it feels right to me. But I dont have a frame of reference. (no pun intended). It could be perfect, or to big. No way for me to know.


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## TheHuth (Jul 22, 2015)

Lou Z. Ryder said:


> What do you mean by "wheelie?" I mean, are you trying to get the front tire over obstacles or are you trying to show off how rad you are?


Its practice for eventually getting over obstacles. I'm a bit old to be showboating.


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## Lou Z. Ryder (Sep 9, 2014)

It's way, way easier to do a wheelie on a bmx bike than on a mtb, so if that's what you're used to it may just take some time to adjust.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

It doesn't feel like thrusting my weight back to me.

Manuals feel like lifting my front end and shoving my rear wheel out in front.

Wheelies feel like leaning back and driving the wheel out front by pedaling. It's kind of odd.

You're right, it should be more of a finesse thing. Finesse skills are tricky. You're going to thrash around for a while and try things that don't work until you find something that seems like it's maybe working less badly. Then, develop that.  Later, you'll probably realize something you thought was crucial was actually getting in your way. You'll let go of it, and suddenly get a lot better and work a lot less hard.

But it's something you feel. Kind of like handling a balance-steered vehicle in the first place. So it's going to take some doing.

I find them to be somewhat similar skills except that it's easier for me to wheelie uphill and manual downhill.

Do you feel like you're getting either of them to at least kind of work?


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Should add, sometimes wheelies feel like I'm just allowing the front end to rise instead of holding it down. That would be on a steep climb.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

They make it look so easy, don't they? I'm over a year into my latest effort to learn this, and getting nowhere. You can at least wheelie, you are doing better than me.

In the interest of better weight distribution, I tried a short stem and put the seat all the way back, as recommended by many here. Didn't help.

No matter what combination of slamming the handlebars, throwing my weight around, and pedaling I use, I never get the front wheel more than about 8" off the ground for 1/2 a second.

Beginning to think this must be part of the curse of being slow-twitch.


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## TheHuth (Jul 22, 2015)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Do you feel like you're getting either of them to at least kind of work?


Thats a great question. The wheelie, yes kind of. That one is definitely a timing thing, but when I do get it, I fall to the left side every time. The manual, not at all. Everything about it feels awkward, and it feels like I'm trying to pull a strong magnet up. It just slams right back down every time.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

That's interesting. My problem with the wheelie was that I could get some of the way up and come back down or loop out. I never felt like I fell to the side. I could swear, if I could hit that balance point for just a little longer, I'd be able to get it in control. Really.


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

The most common mistake I think is to pull up on the bars. That move will only drag you back on the cockpit and land it. 

Instead, compress your arms before doing a wheelie like when doing push-ups. Then extend your arms violently _and leave them straight_, just slightly out of locked elbows. Time this with a strong push on either pedal. 

To get the feel start at a slow walking pace and deliberately over-do it, so you land on your feet behind the bike.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

i know some very skilled riders who admit they just can't master the wheelie. i think some people just have a harder time with it. 

this however does not stop them from being able to ride very challenging obstacles on the trail, and unless you had a wheelie contest you would never know.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Saul Lumikko said:


> The most common mistake I think is to pull up on the bars. That move will only drag you back on the cockpit and land it.


This has been my usual way of screwing them up. Also, not getting low enough and my ass back far enough behind the axle for holding manuals. BMX bike has helped with being able to keep them going longer.

Funny thing is, I have never really had much problem getting the front wheel up for obstacles, even stuff as tall as my wheel, but I can't for the life of me keep it up there for any serious length of time. I know guys that can wheelie for miles on XC 29ers and manual DH bikes or BMX bikes for really impressive distances, but I tend to either go off to the side or push my front end back down in pretty short order. Even learning how to ride a uni hasn't really helped me. Some of us just don't have the damn wheelie gene I guess.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I can't ride a wheelie very long but I can loop any bike over the top with ease, it's not really a power move. I don't think it's necessary to be a good wheelier to ride mtb's well but I do believe one should learn to lift their front wheel as high as necessary at will in order to safely clear obstacles. 

Manuals? Someday.............


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## TheHuth (Jul 22, 2015)

Thats all really good insight. Thank you everyone.


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## banditpowdercoat (Aug 13, 2015)

Getting in on this. Having a real hard time with my 29er as well. I'm sure it's a wheel size thing for me as I used to wheelie and Ollie a bmx no problems


Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

All I'm trying to do is clear minor obstacles, but can't keep the wheel up long enough even for that.



Saul Lumikko said:


> ...compress your arms before doing a wheelie like when doing push-ups. Then extend your arms violently _and leave them straight_, just slightly out of locked elbows. Time this with a strong push on either pedal....


That's what I'm doing, but not strong enough it seems.



Saul Lumikko said:


> To get the feel start at a slow walking pace and deliberately over-do it, so you land on your feet behind the bike.


 Can't loop out. The wheel only comes up 8-10" and immediately goes back down again.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gotta lean back like you mean it.


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## Lou Z. Ryder (Sep 9, 2014)

I think the trick on a mtb is to use to obstacle to your advantage. You don't have to do a full-fledged wheelie to get over stuff, just get the wheel high enough that it will continue to roll over. Even on a big log, that isn't very high if you're moving at the right speed ...
And having some momentum definitely helps.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

one weird trick is being super fit and have abs and arms of steel



it takes a lot of power and commitment to make a bike do anything other than roll in a straight line

like slapheadmofo said, you ride like you --mean it-- you have to command and strangle the bike and use some force.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Get in a good gear, Push down on the fork to compress, power stroke the pedal at the top of the rotation with your dominate foot. Start there. I usually can get 2-4 pedal stokes before it starts to go bad. But getting the front wheel up 1-2 feet to get over trail stuff is a great skill.


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## MadPainterGrafx (Oct 3, 2014)

You don't need abs and arms of steel to wheelie or manual. Learning to do it properly and it will not take as much effort as most think. I'm not a wheelie or manual expert but I do know that Saul Lumikko described it perfectly. Here is a link to GMBN on youtube in their how-to section that has a huge amount of info for anyone looking to learn things. Maybe this will help some.

GMBN's how to manual video:


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

I assume legs of steel will do for wheelies (don't have).

Funny thing is, my abs actually are quite strong, but what good do they do me here?

I think the link to that video may be bad, but I searched down the GMBN videos on Youtube, and I found their video on manuals. I think I have the movement correct, just don't have that explosive super-duper-ultra-fast-twitch strength. Best I can do is a slow burn.


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## MadPainterGrafx (Oct 3, 2014)

It goes to the video everytime I click it. Well those guys doing the video for gmbn are eert/pro riders so if you still can't get it have someone video you and I'll bet you aren't doing it like he says. Me and my son are still working on it but we haven't worked on it as much as we should. Lol


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

any pictures of you riding that old Klien Hardtail. 

Wheelies and manual can be a ton harder to do on older bikes due to their low front ends.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

TheHuth said:


> ...Since I've been pretty much unable to get the front end up at all, I'm wondering if I'm doing something very wrong, or if the bike is just not set up properly.
> 
> For the bike size, it feels right to me. But I dont have a frame of reference. (no pun intended). It could be perfect, or to big. No way for me to know.


I'm 5'-8" and ride 17.5"-18.5" frames. Your frame size/setup is not the problem.

After many years of riding, I've been back to attempting to learn the "manual" technique of lifting the front wheel. Most of the time the wheel only comes up 10-12" and right back down. However, I'm at the point now where I do get the movement correct on occasion and when this happens, the wheel comes up 20-24" with little effort and hangs there for a moment.

Follow the motion shown in the gmbn video and think of it more as thrusting the bike forward with your legs rather than throwing your weight back. As often recommended, dropping the seat out of the way while practicing makes it easier to get the feel for the correct movement.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

In the tail end of my teens and my early twenties, I trained pretty seriously in ballet. I think of that often when I'm trying to improve a technical skill in mountain biking.

I really think that wheelies and manuals are about balance and timing, not strength. But it's hard not to get into working too hard and being too tense. With pirouettes, tours, and pretty much any other men's move that involves spinning or direction change, identifying the one or two muscles that really motivate the movement, keeping a moderate amount of core engagement, and relaxing make the moves suddenly a lot easier. More explosive, too. 

I think it's similar with my bike. I mean, these are not strength moves. Really. They're finesse moves. Doing a J-hop onto a park bench is pretty hard to imagine as anything but explosive. But practicing wheelies and manuals and lofting and floating my front end out on the trail, I find I'm all about moving my CG and giving a push with one or both legs. And it's not a strong push, like doing step-ups or leg press. It's a timed, coordinated push, like releve into a little jump.

I know ballet is out of context for a lot of y'all, but you can look it up. 

Point being, if you feel like you're not strong enough, you're working too hard and you're probably getting in your own way.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

I didn't read the entire thread but this is what works for me.

I started with learning to wheelie. Mostly to deal with log crossings and not really for show boating. With a wheelie you don't need to lean back a whole lot. You just need a well timed pedal stroke with a rearward pull from your torso on the handlebars. For me it does "feel" like I pull with my arms but in reality they stay 90% extended (letting your elbow go to full lock will destroy your joints after a while). You really don't need to use much effort, its just good timing from two different actions (a single pedal stroke and rearward weight transfer). Once the front tire is up just keep pedaling to maintain the wheelie. If you're on the balance point and don't need to pedal, its pretty much a manual at that point. The falling left or right thing just takes more practice to sort it out. You aren't really doing anything wrong regarding that.

After I got good at doing a wheelie and learned to ride them for about 10 feet I tried to learn manuals. With the seat fully down I could not for the life of me get the front wheel high enough to reach the balance point. So I combined the techique with a wheelie. A really quick and short pedal stroke is all it takes with your weight fully back and you can loop over backward easily. Again it shouldn't take much effort. Then just LOTS of practice to find the balance point and learn to ride it.

For both techniques keep a finger on the rear brake. I do encourage you to purposely loop the bike out at lower speeds to learn how to land on your feet if you need to bail. Looping out wont let you learn how to ride on the balance point but its a good place to start. After that try to find the balance point and use the rear brake if you feel that you've gone past it.

Also for me a manual is really not an important skill for riding trails. Your weight is to far back to realistically approach an obstacle. The wheelie keeps your weight more centered keeping you in a good position for log crossings and more control for drops.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Fajita Dave said:


> Also for me a manual is really not an important skill for riding trails. Your weight is to far back to realistically approach an obstacle. The wheelie keeps your weight more centered keeping you in a good position for log crossings and more control for drops.


Good post otherwise but I disagree with this^ Manuals aren't really necessary, you _can_ get by without them but it's still an important skill IMO. I'm not real good at them but even my little mini ones are super helpful (and fun!) when crossing small dips and water bars at speed.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I use manuals constantly to ride off little ledges on descending trails without letting my bike's attitude get too badly screwed up. And for stuff just a little too big to roll...


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

Can you get your butt behind the rear axle? That may be the key to being able to manual. I dont think I will ever be able to manual with my current bike because I cant get my weight behind the axle, my frame is probably too big and too heavy.

There are ledges here I have to walk down because I cant keep the wheel up long enough to go off without nosediving, and theres not enough room to get enough speed to "jump" off.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Honestly, I'm not sure if I can get my butt that far back or not. If I can, it's not by much and I highly doubt I can get my CG that far back.

For me, it's a dynamic move. I'd like to find my balance point because I think I'd be able to handle lippier and lower-speed ledges. But if I'm descending with reasonable speed and there's not something to mess it up, I feel pretty comfortable pumping up my front wheel at the right time.

The low-speed stuff is why I'm revisiting it right now. I think a wheelie drop is one of the missing pieces for being able to handle descents that mean it.


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## bjames (May 5, 2014)

I spent a week trying to learn them earlier this summer, I improved finding my balance point but failed to get it consistently.

One mental breakthrough for me was actually understanding that I was balancing over my rear axel. That helped me understand why it took more effort on my 29er XC bike than my friends 27.5 setup with shorter chain stays.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> Good post otherwise but I disagree with this^ Manuals aren't really necessary, you _can_ get by without them but it's still an important skill IMO. I'm not real good at them but even my little mini ones are super helpful (and fun!) when crossing small dips and water bars at speed.


Yeah I agree with that. I probably should have been more specific. I use mini manuals for lofting the front wheel over mud holes or small drops (like 2ft or less). But a mini manual that just gets the front wheel slightly off the ground never gets your weight behind or even much over the rear axle. A bunny hop does start with a manual! Its just not a full balanced manual over the rear axle. Your weight is more forward which is what lets you make the hop.

For a full manual that can find the balance point your butt is to low and far back to effectivly absorb larger bumps or hop something like a log crossing. You also give up some control for drops. A wheelie puts you in a better position to pedal and raise the front if it starts dropping. The last thing you want to happen on a 3ft+ drop is for the front end to start falling before the rear leaves the ledge.

In a wheelie position your butt should only be slightly behind your seat. This puts you in a stable position to either pedal to raise the front, hop to get the rear tire light (like for log crossings) or still use the rear brake if the front end gets to high. The first two of which are hard to do with your butt low and over the rear axle like in a manual.

This is just what works for me though! At a certain point theres definitely a gray area between whats a wheelie and whats a manual. Pros can do some crazy stuff from a manual. So I'm not saying you can't do much from a front end high manual. Just that wheelies give you more control to correct mistakes. Thats just arguing about details though.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

my point is

if you want to get good, really good, you'll have to crash a bit practicing it


if you don't have strong arms and abs you are gonna get beat to sh*t and not want to practice anymore. I don' see many fat guys being good at bike handling, is that by chance ?


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

TheHuth said:


> I'm definitely going to hire an instructor in a couple of weeks. I'd really like someone to show me exactly what to do and what I'm doing wrong My only concern now though is; is a medium size frame too big for me?
> 
> Sorry, didnt answer your first question. How much time have I spent on it? I've only picked back up riding for about a month. Used to ride lots when I was young, and rode dirt bikes when I got older. But I've been out of the game for 10+ years. And I dont think I ever had the proper technique previously.


Try doing it slightly down hill on grass, wear a camelbak, try to loop out. On the grass with your back protected you wont worry about falling backwards as much. Once you can get the balance point in the grass, work on the street.

I like this video


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

idividebyzero said:


> Can you get your butt behind the rear axle? That may be the key to being able to manual. I dont think I will ever be able to manual with my current bike because I cant get my weight behind the axle, my frame is probably too big and too heavy.
> 
> There are ledges here I have to walk down because I cant keep the wheel up long enough to go off without nosediving, and theres not enough room to get enough speed to "jump" off.


This isnt the right technique. Instead of lifting your wheel up to do a wheelie crouch down towards the bars and then push your bars forward. You can drop ledges with very little speed. You can also find youtube videos showing how it is done.


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## jonorok (Feb 14, 2015)

I am still physically trying to master the wheelie. I am relatively big yet light. With a 34.5" inseam and only 168 lbs of weight, I don't have much leverage on my 29er xc bike. I am strong, just not heavy. I love the ballet approach.

What I have found works for me is a combination of proper pedal timing and body movement. Push the bars, pull the bars, it all sounds so confusing to me. First things first, I need to start with the pedal in the 7 o'clock position. Just a little bit of power, of movement, and then the other pedal is in a full power stroke a moment later. Now, more importantly, is where my body weight is. The trick to a manual or wheelie is all balance. With these, we are trying to balance our weight solely over the back wheel, or the axle. Since I have relatively little body weight compared to my wheel base, I have to use all of it. I start by standing on the pedals, and moving all my weight forward. I'm practically leaning over the bars. Then, as I pedal, I throw my body backwards behind the seat, and keep pedaling. The front end comes up every time.

Now if only I could control it after that...


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## twistedlizard720 (Apr 3, 2006)

I think you should get the wheelie down before moving into manuals. This will allow you to find your balance point and maintain it. Once you can ride a wheelie for a ways, stand up out of the saddle while riding a wheelie. Then you'll get a feel for where you need to be to manual. As you progress, you'll develop some finesse and refine techniques to make it happen on the fly.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

BushwackerinPA said:


> Wheelies and manual can be a ton harder to do on older bikes due to their low front ends.


I suppose that my 1997 Stumpie M2 might be in that category as well, though I did put a shorter stem on it and move the seat as far back as it would go. I have been using that bike to practice this because those changes totally mess up the hill climbing, so I didn't want them on my main ride (2013 Marin Mount Vision XM8) which isn't any easier. Both bikes have 17+ inch chainstays.



slapheadmofo said:


> Gotta lean back like you mean it.


I interpret that as "throw my weight backwards as hard as I possibly can". That gets the wheel up a few inches for a fraction of a second. Pedaling (if I use a low enough gear) brings it up a few more inches, but still only for the same fraction of a second. Continuing to pedal only increases my forward speed without slowing down the return of the front wheel to terra firma.



leeboh said:


> Get in a good gear


What do you consider a good gear? For me it has to be one of the granny gears to get any lift at all.



jonorok said:


> I am still physically trying to master the wheelie. I am relatively big yet light. With a 34.5" inseam and only 168 lbs of weight, I don't have much leverage on my 29er xc bike. I am strong, just not heavy. I love the ballet approach....
> I start by standing on the pedals, and moving all my weight forward. I'm practically leaning over the bars. Then, as I pedal, I throw my body backwards behind the seat, and keep pedaling. The front end comes up every time....


Would it still come up so easily if you were 20 pounds lighter and your legs were 6" shorter? You might be on a smaller frame, but chainstay length doesn't scale with frame size. I do the same, and the wheel comes up for me too, but only 8-10 inches and only for a split second before it goes right back down again. This also means that I cannot get back far enough to push forwards with my legs to any useful degree. Nearly all the force goes down, and pushes the bike down, no matter how much I point my toes upward and try to push forwards from an impossible angle.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

It's definitely not a weight/strengh issue. My son only weighs about 75 lbs soaking wet and can loop his XS 26" bike out at will. Definitely get up in the middle ring though; the granny won't do it for you.


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## banditpowdercoat (Aug 13, 2015)

I can manual my daughters 24. Wife's 26 but my 29er is tough to impossible still. 


Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

On my 26" bike, I have the best luck with something just above 1:1. So middle ring and a largish cog.

For me, it's not really about doing it with a lot of force. It's all timing and articulation. And I noticed working on it the other day that dropping my saddle 4" is too much, but 2" lower might be helpful. Probably equivalent to a little more than that, since my flat pedals are crazy thick and my running shoes probably have a little more stack than my cycling shoes.

It reminds me a lot of using a plie to drive a little jump, to revisit ballet. For those of you who never did that, think jumping from bent knees vs. jumping from straight legs.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

This is Andy from Dirtsmartmtb explaining the how/why of wheelies (he took down his video on how to manual, otherwise I would link it)
Video: Pedal Wheelie Technique - DirtSmart MTB

Here is Dblocks doing a no-handed wheelie - proof positive you don't need alot of upper body strength or massive legs... it's all in how you can un-weight your front end. 





And last but not least, here is the link to Ryan Leech's 30 day wheelie challenge. I HIGHLY recommend it. I had issues with not getting more than 1 or 2 pedal strokes in on a wheelie and somewhere around day 19 it "clicked" for me. 
30 Day Wheelie Challenge | Ryan Leech


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## banditpowdercoat (Aug 13, 2015)

After trying for a few hrs around town. Manual off and up curbs. And a couple hrs in the back alley. I'm getting 3-4 pedals in wheelie now. I'm progressing. Yayyy. 


Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

*Yay!*



banditpowdercoat said:


> After trying for a few hrs around town. Manual off and up curbs. And a couple hrs in the back alley. I'm getting 3-4 pedals in wheelie now. I'm progressing. Yayyy.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers


That's awsome. You have inspired me!

I've been following this thread for a while.

Sadly I've come to realize I have been getting this whole manual thing all wrong. I thought all you needed to do was load your front forks and roll over the obstacle.

I haven't practiced wheelies much and never used them on the trails. I just learned to ratchet and pull up with my arms however, it's not working out to well.

Before watching some of these videos I was confused about when to wheelie and when to manual. I think you wheelie on a uphill and manual on a down but, what about on the flats?

I never knew your suppose manual off drops either.

After observing all these new techniques, it occurred to me that timing is more critical then I thought. There is far more to think about now. I admit I'm quite overwhelmed.

I see the need to get these this stuff ingrained into my mind so they become second nature. Last time I was on the trail I forgot what to do in certain situations. Sometimes I would panic and come to a complete stop.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Looks like he unweighted his front end by removing his front wheel.


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## banditpowdercoat (Aug 13, 2015)

What I got today was most times just pulling up on the bars for little manuals. Like 6-8" wheel height. But then I started pushing down then moving my body back. Straightening my arms to get the wheel up. Once wheel was up I pulled my arms to my chest and that gained even more wheel height and starting the wheelie. 


Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

For me, applying this stuff to real trails is about sessioning features.

When I roll up to something that stops me, and that I think I could be doing better, I'll think about how I should have tried it. Then I'll go back up the trail and ride back to the obstacle and try it. Sometimes it can take a couple attempts and sometimes I end up leaving things for later, but I think I've become a lot better at MTB this way.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's definitely not a weight/strengh issue. My son only weighs about 75 lbs soaking wet and can loop his XS 26" bike out at will.


I am sure your son is a fine athlete, and athletes his age often have amazing strength-to-weight, especially for fast-twitch strength, which is all that matters here.

I have noticed that many of the newer bikes have a seat position almost on top of the rear axle. I suppose such a bike would be easier to wheelie and manual, but how do you climb hills with it? Out of the saddle all of the time?

On my Stumpjumper, leaning back as far as I can reach unweights the front wheel by 7 pounds, compared to a normal seated riding position (measured by bathroom scale). Standing on the pedals with my ass behind the seat as far as it will go is about the same. Note that I have already changed the stem to be as short as possible and with more rise, and moved the seat back as far as it will go, and it is a small frame.



slapheadmofo said:


> Definitely get up in the middle ring though; the granny won't do it for you.


I have tried to do it in the middle ring, as recommended by practically everyone, and I get no lift, but if I am persistant, I get sore knees.

It is the very fact that I have to use such a low gear to get any lift that is most convincing about this being some kind of fast-twitch strength issue. I'm reasonably fit by ordinary standards, but not so much compared to the MTBR racerboys and racergirls. And it is entirely possible that everything I do have is slow-twitch. Not sure how one determines such a thing.



Thustlewhumber said:


> This is Andy from Dirtsmartmtb explaining the how/why of wheelies (he took down his video on how to manual, otherwise I would link it)
> Video: Pedal Wheelie Technique - DirtSmart MTB
> ...And last but not least, here is the link to Ryan Leech's 30 day wheelie challenge...
> 30 Day Wheelie Challenge | Ryan Leech


The part of the 30-day challenge that covers getting the front wheel up is the part he lets you view for free, and that's the part I'm interested in. Couldn't really tell from the video how he was getting the wheel up though. As so often happens, the important stuff goes by too fast. Won't be buying the series.

Dirtsmart's approach is to use massive leg strength to get the wheel up. 
That's what he says, and that is what is depicted in the video.
I guess this would work if my legs were that strong.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

AndrwSwitch said:


> In the tail end of my teens and my early twenties, I trained pretty seriously in ballet. I think of that often when I'm trying to improve a technical skill in mountain biking.
> 
> I really think that wheelies and manuals are about balance and timing, not strength. But it's hard not to get into working too hard and being too tense. With pirouettes, tours, and pretty much any other men's move that involves spinning or direction change, identifying the one or two muscles that really motivate the movement, keeping a moderate amount of core engagement, and relaxing make the moves suddenly a lot easier. More explosive, too.


I have certainly experienced that on the dance floor. Never did ballet. My dancing is of the dance underground, of the forest and the mountains. Not the sort of thing one takes lessons for, more like finding your dances than learning to dance. But the above does apply nonetheless. Can't seem to find a way to apply that here though. I have been trying to turn this into a dance, but my bike doesn't want to dance with me.



AndrwSwitch said:


> I think it's similar with my bike. I mean, these are not strength moves. Really. They're finesse moves. Doing a J-hop onto a park bench is pretty hard to imagine as anything but explosive. But practicing wheelies and manuals and lofting and floating my front end out on the trail, I find I'm all about moving my CG and giving a push with one or both legs. And it's not a strong push, like doing step-ups or leg press. It's a timed, coordinated push, like releve into a little jump.
> 
> I know ballet is out of context for a lot of y'all, but you can look it up.
> 
> Point being, if you feel like you're not strong enough, you're working too hard and you're probably getting in your own way.


Moving my CG does very little. I cannot move it far enough.
Leaning back as far as I can only takes 7 pounds off the front wheel compared to a normal seated riding position.

If it was a matter of timing, I'd get it right at least once in a while, wouldn't I?


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## Misterg (Jul 17, 2014)

It's definitely not a strength thing - it's all about technique and timing. (I can pop the front wheel up as high as I want, but can't wheelie for more than 4 or 5 pedal strokes.)

My take on it, in case something 'clicks':

In response to "lean back like you mean it":



andytiedye said:


> I interpret that as "throw my weight backwards as hard as I possibly can". That gets the wheel up a few inches for a fraction of a second.


IMHO: No, that sounds wrong to me. It shouldn't be a violent movement; Start from sitting tall on the bike, with your butt shuffled towards the rear of the saddle, arms straight and head up. Lean forwards over over the handlebars by bending your arms, then push off the bars, straightening your arms and allowing your whole body to swing back smoothly like you were in a rocking chair, aiming to go back through that 'sitting tall' position and beyond (keep your arms straight!). It's commitment rather than speed, I think.



> Pedaling (if I use a low enough gear) brings it up a few more inches, but still only for the same fraction of a second.
> 
> ...For me it has to be one of the granny gears to get any lift at all.
> 
> ... the wheel comes up for me too, but only 8-10 inches and only for a split second before it goes right back down again.


IMHO: Your weight is still too far forwards - that's why the front end is coming crashing back down straight away. If your weight is back, even if you can't keep the front up, it drops more gently.

Likewise, that's why you can only get the front to lift in the granny gear: it sounds like you're trying to use brute-force to lift your whole weight, rather than technique.



> This also means that I cannot get back far enough to push forwards with my legs to any useful degree. Nearly all the force goes down, and pushes the bike down...


IMHO: That statement is quite telling. Getting the front up, and getting back aren't two separate things. You should be on your way back before you step on the pedal. As far as I can tell, you need to start pedaling roughly when your arms straighten out, and your body is passing through the vertical, sitting tall position. Use the middle ring and gear 1,2 or 3 on the back. The pedal power and the weight shift work together. Neither on their own will work without a huge effort (if at all).



andytiedye said:


> Moving my CG does very little. I cannot move it far enough.
> Leaning back as far as I can only takes 7 pounds off the front wheel compared to a normal seated riding position.


That means very little, to be honest. You'll never raise the front of a mountain bike just by a static shift of your CG. When the front of the bike comes up, the seat moves further over the back wheel, and you will have plenty of weight to balance things. If you want to prove it to yourself, put the bike next to a wall with the front wheel raised about 18" in the air on a box, or something. Climb onto the bike and grab the back brake. Use the wall to steady yourself while you try moving your weight about.



> If it was a matter of timing, I'd get it right at least once in a while, wouldn't I?


Only if you're aiming at the right target. Practicing the wrong thing only makes you better at failing! 

Like I said, this is just my take on it, in case another angle helps.

Try and video yourself practicing - what I *thought* I was doing was nothing like what the video showed!

Good luck, and don't give up.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Misterg said:


> It's commitment rather than speed, I think.


What does "commitment" mean in this context, if it is not giving it everything you've got?



Misterg said:


> IMHO: Your weight is still too far forwards - that's why the front end is coming crashing back down straight away.


I know, but I can't get back any further. Already the seating position is so far back as to be totally unsuitable for climbing, and I am sitting and leaning back as far as I can.



Misterg said:


> You should be on your way back before you step on the pedal. As far as I can tell, you need to start pedaling roughly when your arms straighten out, and your body is passing through the vertical, sitting tall position. Use the middle ring and gear 1,2 or 3 on the back.


I have received a lot of conflicting advice on this, and have been trying everything from pedaling and pushing back at the same time, to pedaling when I'm all the way back.



Misterg said:


> When the front of the bike comes up, the seat moves further over the back wheel, and you will have plenty of weight to balance things....


That is only helpful if I can get the wheel up that high, and I am a long way from that.
(And I think it would be a lot more than 18" to get near the balance point on my bikes)



Misterg said:


> don't give up.


Getting kinda close to that point actually.


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## Misterg (Jul 17, 2014)

andytiedye said:


> What does "commitment" mean in this context, if it is not giving it everything you've got?


It's more about having the courage to rock your weight backwards without regard for the consequences; making the leap of faith that you can abandon your current state of equilibrium and arrive at a new state of equilibrium without knowing what it will feel like, and without necessarily being in control in the meantime. As an analogy, how about the difference between stepping across a creek or leaping across? Jumping off a diving board or springing off one into a dive? The latter require 'commitment' in each case - they can't be achieved by step-wise progression from the former. One has to 'go for it'.

...So that's what I meant by commitment.

Anyway, I've found that this is going over stuff which has already been discussed in another thread - my apologies.

Remember that it is possible to talk oneself into not being able to do something, regardless of the reality:

_"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."_

If you're not feeling positive, maybe work on something else for a while and come back to this?


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

I agree with the above. I still suck at manuals but I can do them now. For the longest time I could only get the front off the ground a few inches and it turned out that I was scared to really go for it. Once I got over being scared it was pretty easy and I did not consciously realize I was scared for the longest time. 

I have to be careful when I have a lot of weight in my pack, especially when I've been doing short rides with no pack. I've had to hit the rear brake numerous times due to the weight in the pack making me go too far. 

Obviously the bike has something to do with it. I can't manual on my friend's Haro hardtail (haven't tried to more than a handful of times) and just by the looks, the Trance looked like it would be very hard to manual on since it's a larger bike but it turned out to be incredibly easy on that bike.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm getting my front wheel up a lot easier(but can't keep it there, just long enough to clear stuff) after reading up on fit and discovering that I had my seat too high, and was at a mechanical disadvantage with too much leg extension, etc.
Being on a long 30+lb. bike probably didn't help.
Bike really came alive after lowering my stem/bars, and dropping my seat. 
I'm obviously no expert, but agree with others about strength. I'm 5'7" on a 17.5" hardtail, too, but 190-200lbs and it's not fat. Strength is definitely not one of my issues, and watching some of these youtube videos of skinny little guys making bikes do stuff that seems impossible to me makes it pretty clear that bike geometry and lack of proper technique are. So I'll just keep trying to do better...:madman:


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

So I'm on a bit of a staycation right now and one of the things I decided to do with the extra time was to work on wheelies and manuals. I also got the McCormack/Lopes book recently.

Something I think is really important is that the rock-back and the major pedal stroke have to happen at the same time. I think when I'm riding trails and just trying to get my wheel over things, I do that anyway. But it's easy for me to overthink wheelies and I was trying different things with timing.

Just to continue the overthinking vein, both the big pedal jab and tossing my upper body back are movements that can drive the front wheel into the ground. Which isn't what I'm trying to do, but the force to get everything rotating back has to come from somewhere. If I don't do them at the same time, they basically oppose each other. Like if I toss my upper body back and then shove on my pedal, I'm just as likely to shove the bike back into the ground. And if I'm getting some lift from my pedals and I try to toss my upper body back, that movement has to come from somewhere and with nowhere to come from, I'm really just putting my bike back on the ground.

Really committing to it remains hard for me. Which is silly in a sense because I've looped out plenty of times in the past. You'd think there'd be no mystery left there. At this point, I'm kinda thinking I just need to keep revisiting and practicing, and as I get more comfortable with it, I think it should get easier to do it like I mean it.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

Andrw,

I'm was on a staycation and now I should be working. I'm OCD so here I am. 

I went out and practiced for the first time yesterday. I got my front wheel up about 6 or 7 inches doing a wheelie. I found timing the pedal stroke and rocking back super difficult. I was also getting tired. Not sure what that was all about.

I found the manual to be easier. I think I got my wheel pretty far off the ground. It was a little scary.

I practiced on the grass so I would not have the issues with committing as much. I pictured in my mind what I needed to do. I also tend to over think and confusion sets in.

Fast forward to the future and I'm now worried about control. Really worried! How do you control the amount of lift or are we already discussing that?

I worried about looping back on a trail and not getting enough lift going over a rock and crashing. I feel a need to master these skill before I use them on the trails.

I will just keep practicing and I will check out that book.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

You can always feather your rear brake.

When people who are good at it do it, it looks like it's similar to balancing on one foot or doing a trackstand.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I've yet to master the rear brake feather technique but if you practice with flat pedals it's no big deal if you pull up too high and loop over. It does freak me out a little when clipped in so when I'm riding those I don't go too crazy.


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## soarftb (May 18, 2015)

Good thread, I just stumbled upon it.

More info on this same topic here in a thread I started in the Clydesdale forum:
http://forums.mtbr.com/clydesdales-...g-trouble-unweighting-front-wheel-983247.html

I have to admit I still have not practiced manuals specifically more than 1.5 hours over two sessions. I am still having trouble with it but I am better at going over log-overs on the trail just by getting more experience with the bike. I am better at riding over the top of things and finessing with body language to surmount an obstacle. Getting over trail features was my main goal with manuals and I can get over all but the one toughest log-over on my group ride. I still want to get better at manuals though and be able to do drops at speed and span dips, for example.

I do think the bike type has something to do with it. I ride an XC 29er in a Scott Scale and I am convinced the stable geometry designed for speed counteracts lifting the front wheel. I may be getting a Kona Taro which is a more "aggressive" all mountain HT with a slacker head tube angle and a much higher stack than the Scale. I will report back if it helps at all. I also went from a 100mm to a 60mm stem on my Scale which helped on downhills but I am not sure if it helped for manuals.


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## banditpowdercoat (Aug 13, 2015)

Yea I agree type makes a difference. Size too. I can air my wife's Kona fire mountian 26er not bad. 15" frame. My lava done 19" 29er. Not so much. And when I rent a rocket mountian flatline at the lift park I can get it higher than my 29er as well. Even though it heavier dh bike


Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers


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## soarftb (May 18, 2015)

banditpowdercoat said:


> Yea I agree type makes a difference. Size too. I can air my wife's Kona fire mountian 26er not bad. 15" frame. My lava done 19" 29er. Not so much. And when I rent a rocket mountian flatline at the lift park I can get it higher than my 29er as well. Even though it heavier dh bike
> 
> Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers


If you can't air your Lava Dome maybe I shouldn't get the Taro.

I would like to know what the ideal bike geometry is for lifting the front wheel.


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## banditpowdercoat (Aug 13, 2015)

Wouldn't say can't. I'm getting better. Just that mine is a large. I'm 5'10". I can get it up over 6" high roots now. But that's about the max for a bunny hop thing. More practice I need. I'm still using too much muscles not enough body momentum and timing I think


Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Ideal would be a dirt jump bike or BMX.


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## soarftb (May 18, 2015)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Ideal would be a dirt jump bike or BMX.


What is it specifically about the geometries of a dirt jump bike or BMX bike that make them easy to manual? Stack, reach, TT length, HT angle, BB drop? What mountain bike model would be ideal?

I am thinking wheel size has a lot to do with it. The smaller the wheel the better.


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## TheHuth (Jul 22, 2015)

I think I may know why I've had such difficulty up to this point. I'm riding a 1996 Klein Pulse Comp hardtail. The front fork is completely blown out. It compresses flat as soon as I sit down on the bike. I'm thinking that the action of leaning back, pulling up hard on the handlebars is being wasted on uncompressing the front fork.

Thoughts?

Edit - I can test theory. On my lunch break I'll pump the front fork up to a high PSI, and then try again. The pressure wont stay long, but it will be there long enough to test it out. I'll post my results.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Everything. I mean, these are bikes that are designed from the ground up to be good at pumping, push manuals, and jumping.

Stack height is a bit of a red herring. People put mountain or BMX risers on anyway, and end up plenty high.

The same size rider typically chooses something less reachy.

They're actually pretty conservative about head angle. Kind of surprising, but I think it's about handling quickly, rather than tolerating chunky natural surface trails.

Haven't really looked at BB drop. There's not a ton on a dirt jumper and it's negative on a BMX.

They're not mountain bikes like your Scott is a mountain bike. Isn't that the point, though? A mountain bike is a collection of compromises designed to be capable, fun and fast on natural surface trails with some balance between climbing, descending, and flow lines. You're not asking for a bike to do any of those things. You're asking for a bike designed to be as easy as possible to get onto its rear wheel, something that's useful on its own on a pump track and also a precursor skill to a ton of other BMX and trials skills.

So what I'm telling you is if you're really going to go out and buy a bike specifically for purposes of learning trials and pump skills, it's not a part of the traditional mountain bike XC-to-DH spectrum


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

TheHuth said:


> I think I may know why I've had such difficulty up to this point. I'm riding a 1996 Klein Pulse Comp hardtail. The front fork is completely blown out. It compresses flat as soon as I sit down on the bike. I'm thinking that the action of leaning back, pulling up hard on the handlebars is being wasted on uncompressing the front fork.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Edit - I can test theory. On my lunch break I'll pump the front fork up to a high PSI, and then try again. The pressure wont stay long, but it will be there long enough to test it out. I'll post my results.


I bet it helps a lot.

You might consider a rigid fork.


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## TheHuth (Jul 22, 2015)

A rigid fork may be a very good idea in this case. The bike is not worth enough to fix or replace the fork with another similar one. I'm likely going to buy a full suspension bike within the next year and keep this as my around town bike.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

AndrwSwitch said:


> You can always feather your rear brake.
> 
> When people who are good at it do it, it looks like it's similar to balancing on one foot or doing a trackstand.


I will give it a try. Thanks!


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

J.B. I do ride with flat pedals. I decided that it's the best choice for me at this point since I'm trying to master the art of being a good technical rider.

I'm pretty excited about how well I did yesterday trying the manual for the first time on my XC 29nr. Maybe I have low expectations. Andrw made a good point about bikes being made for specific purposes. 

I'm committed at this point to XC. I accept my bikes FS 29nr's limitations and appreciates it strengths. It's much different then my McMahon TI 26 HT which is way more nimble. Now I have different wants and needs so I made a change. I do have one question. I just want to get some sort of base line as what to expect from my bike.

This thread is making me think more deeply. It's like math and science...ha ha!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

soarftb said:


> If you can't air your Lava Dome maybe I shouldn't get the Taro.
> 
> I would like to know what the ideal bike geometry is for lifting the front wheel.


Tiny back wheel, big front wheel, dramatically swept back apehanger bars above your shoulder height, pedals and seat behind and below the rear axle.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

FWIW, I've been practicing on a XC hardtail in my usual size. I dropped the saddle 2" (lower just feels weird and awful for me) and put on a short, high-angled stem and flat pedals.

I am thinking about buying a BMX, just want to wait until I'm back at work and see if someone has one gathering dust.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

I thought BMX was for kids till I learned my 48 year old Pediatrician neighbor still races. He likes riding around the neighbirhood in his baggy shorts and wife beater. It's pretty funny.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Fuzzle said:


> I thought BMX was for kids till I learned my 48 year old Pediatrician neighbor still races. He likes riding around the neighbirhood in his baggy shorts and wife beater. It's pretty funny.


Probably a much better overall rider than the vast majority of mountain bikers on multi-thousand dollar over-engineered plastic-fantastic machines though. 
Which I find even funnier.

And I'll bet he can manual like a bastard.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

I totally agree! Very skilled rider. He is also the coolest, nicest and down to earth guy. We're good friends. He is going to work with son and hopefully he will race and get off the freakin I Pad!!!


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

*Sorry*

I never got the chance to finish my post.

I hope no one took my BMX comment the wrong way. I was only being facetious.

I was mainly referring to my neighbor who cracks me up because basically he acts and dresses like a big. I'm the same way myself.

I just like joking around with people and sometimes it get taken the wrong way. I will try to be more careful.

Yeah, my neighbor can manual like a bastard .

This is a really good thread and I've learned a lot from you guys .


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Do you find it easier with a longer bike and short stem or a shorter bike with a longer stem? 
Let's assume the saddle to bars distance stays the same.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

IME, BMX riders can typically handle their bikes better because they spend a lot more time riding and practicing than contemplating theoretical 'magic bullet' equipment scenarios. It's no coincidence that a majority of the most talented MTBers have a BMX background. Spending a few hundred on a little bike and a bunch of hours riding it around in your driveway or the local skatepark will teach you a ton.


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## Scpage (Aug 21, 2015)

First post...but fitting nonetheless. Not an expert by any means. Embarked on the wheelie journey about 44 hours of practice ago. At this point, I can pretty much ride a wheelie balanced as far as I'm willing to pedal. I'm 43 going on 44 years of age and my neighbors likely think I'm crazy. I never learned as a kid because I was always riding motorcycles.

A few things that helped me along the way (wheelies):
1) Slightly lower rear tire pressure helped when I was first learning
2) Keep arms relatively straight. A good pedal stroke and lean back while covering the rear brake (it takes very little pedal kick and weight shift to bring the front end up...not a violent movement at all - think smooth). Here is the part that helps with lateral balance...Immediately follow thru pedaling the other pedal side. The gyroscopic rotation helps with balance...keep pedaling and bouncing off the rear brake. In the beginning I found myself pedaling too hard with the right pedal and then trying to compensate by throwing a left knee out or shifting weight, causing my side-side balance to hinder progress. 
3) Practice bouncing off of the rear brake downhill. Trust the rear brake and lean back.
4) Practice riding out each pop up to a balanced wheelie. Soon you will be able to wheelie each and every pop up even if it doesn't start out perfect
5) Keep your knees in during the initial pop up. Effects of weight shifts show up a little delayed, so don't over compensate. Try a small weight shift first and verify the correction. Do this in small increments until straight.
6) I used small front ring and 4th gear on a 2x10 setup
7) I learned to wheelie on a 2015 Santa Cruz Chameleon. Although I find it easier to get the front end up on this bike, I find it easier to maintain the wheelie on my Santa Cruz 5010 full suspension. It seems the rear shock allows the bike to squat once up and the leaning/side to side effects of balance are dampened versus the hard tail.
8) I found it easier to wheelie with higher seat. It seems to translate into a more rearward body weight position once up.

I'm about 15 hours into Manual practice. Still need much more practice but learning to wheelie downhill and coaster wheelie certainly helps me feel more balanced during learning the manual. Manual seems more of a push with hips motion but I'm still not comfortable with the stretched arms/butt behind seat part.

I must say the sweet spot for learning a new skill for me seems to be around the average of 30 hours of practice mark. Some more, some less.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

MadPainterGrafx said:


> GMBN's how to manual video:


I just took a free rider class and one points they emphasized that was not in the video, is the use of your legs. At the same time you're thrusting your weight back, drive your legs forward into the pedals - whole body involvement. One point that came out in the class, also emphasized by people in this thread, is practice time. Most people aren't going it get the manual down without putting in serious practice time.

Unfortunately for me, I'll have to wait a few weeks to practice more since I separated my AC joint and cracked a couple of ribs riding down from the class. Had nothing to do with the class per se, just caught a soft pocket and pitched OTB's. Maybe if I was laying the bars down more in turn I might have rolled the soft spot. End of day, near end of the run - I let my concentration stray and paid the price.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

There is a new pump track in my neighborhood. 

I'm thinking of taking my kids BMX out there since I now have free time. I know you guys said helps build skills. I took a look at this little bike and it scares me! 

I did ride a little BMX when I was 14. I use to catch air off ramps but, never learned to wheelie or corner fast. It's also a size small and I'm 5'4".

Is it harder to manual and wheelie on a little bike? I also tried to catch a little air on my 29er without much luck. Maybe that's a dumb idea.

It's also a size small. He is 10. I don't have room in my garage for another bike.

Anyone?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

If it's a decent BMX, it should be fine. 
If it's a Walmart job, probably not so much.
Any pics of it?

One thing that made a huge difference for me as far as riding BMX was tossing on a set of extra tall and wide bars.

Trust me, there's always room for more bikes; just start hanging them from hooks in the rafters.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

I can only swap bars if it benefits my kid as well. I will ask my neighbor who races and is going to fit my son. 

It's a nice little Redline. Similar to mine back on the late 70's. I will send a pic when I get a chance.

We have lots of bikes. Cross, road, TT, and MTB, as well as equipment for other sports. Yeah, we need a system but someone I know is the King of procrastination . I can't do it alone or I would.


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## TheHuth (Jul 22, 2015)

Hey everyone. I posted a bit back in this thread that I suspected my blown out front fork may be the root cause of my problem. It turns out that that was absolutely correct. I bought a rigid fork this last week, and put it on today.

First notable thing is that it now feels like I'm riding an adult bike. With the old fork, i must have been sloped forward 3 inches. Now that I'm riding at the appropriate height it feels much more natural. I think the balance was way off to begin with.

First I tried a wheelie, and I couldnt believe how little effort it took to get the wheel up. Then I tried for a manual. Before I was throwing all of my weight back. So I tried that, and looped out hard. I was lucky that I landed just right, because I was not expecting it. I tried again with allot less effort, and it came right up.

I can tell its going to take allot of practice. But my major roadblock is cleared now. Should be much easier to learn now.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

I was out on a ride one time and something was way off and I couldn't figure it out. Then I realized my fork was blown out. At first I thought it was me.

My kids BMX bike is way to small and way to light so I'm giving up that idea.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sounds like your son's bike might be a race bike? 
In that case, yeah, totally different than a 'regular' BMX.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 31, 2015)

It's a race bike. My boy will race next year if I can get him off the i-pad.


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## Justin MD (Sep 30, 2013)

My Spesh E29 is WAY easier to wheelie/manual than my Trek Superfly rigid SS. Geometry does play a roll IMO.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

Jumping in real quick about stem length: I have a Trek 69er SS that "had" a 40mm stem on it, and it was very easy to wheelie. I just put the original 100mm stem back on and inverted it, and now it is almost impossible to get the front wheel off the ground. 

fwiw .02


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## Boomchakabowwow (Sep 8, 2015)

wow. 

just spent way to many work hours reading about the Manual. 1 day ago, i didnt know it (the move) even had a name. i will work on it a few moments each ride. i can unweight the front enough to clear most obstacles, but i canNOT manual like a boss enough to turn it into a proper bunny hop.

i can pull a wheelie, i cant ride a wheelie.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Scpage said:


> ...Embarked on the wheelie journey about 44 hours of practice ago.


I must be getting close to that many hours by now, but have nothing to show for it.



Scpage said:


> A good pedal stroke and lean back while covering the rear brake (it takes very little pedal kick and weight shift to bring the front end up...not a violent movement at all - think smooth).


The wheel comes up a few inches and slams back to the ground half a second later.

If I start at the slowest possible speed and mash as hard as I can and throw my weight back as hard as I can I get 10" for half a second. Futher pedaling does not delay the return of the front wheel to terra firma. A "little pedal kick and weight shift" doesn't even get the wheel off the ground.



Scpage said:


> I'm about 15 hours into Manual practice. Still need much more practice but learning to wheelie downhill and coaster wheelie certainly helps me feel more balanced during learning the manual. Manual seems more of a push with hips motion but I'm still not comfortable with the stretched arms/butt behind seat part.


Been struggling with manuals for much longer than wheelies, and running into the same problem. I'm OK with the behind-the-seat position, but never could get the wheel up more than about 6 inches, and again it always slams right back down again.

I'm usually behind the seat on a steep downhill anyway, just to keep the rear down. Can't get any further back than I already am.



Scpage said:


> I must say the sweet spot for learning a new skill for me seems to be around the average of 30 hours of practice mark. Some more, some less.


It must be awesome to learn new skills so quickly.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

andytiedye said:


> ...If it was a matter of timing, I'd get it right at least once in a while, wouldn't I?


As previously stated...not if you are practicing the wrong thing.



andytiedye said:


> I must be getting close to that many hours by now, but have nothing to show for it....


Another bit of evidence that you are not making the correct movement.

Concentrating on the "L" shape movement (shown in the GMBN video) has helped me considerably since the start of this thread. While I still can't coast along with the front wheel 2' off the ground, I can now cross 14" tall logs with ease and that was my original purpose for wanting to be able to manual. FWIW, I'm 62 years old in average condition for my age and suspect I am low on "fast twitch muscles".

MadPainterGrafx got it right in this post....



MadPainterGrafx said:


> You don't need abs and arms of steel to wheelie or manual. Learning to do it properly and it will not take as much effort as most think. I'm not a wheelie or manual expert but I do know that Saul Lumikko described it perfectly. Here is a link to GMBN on youtube in their how-to section that has a huge amount of info for anyone looking to learn things. Maybe this will help some.
> 
> GMBN's how to manual video:


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

andytiedye said:


> I must be getting close to that many hours by now, but have nothing to show for it.


This seems to be a bit of a theme for you. Didn't you say in some other thread that you have a disability or a neoromuscular challenge or something?

We all come to this with different levels of talent. I don't believe that there's any amount of practice that will turn me into Danny McCaskill. Once upon a time, I trained pretty seriously in ballet, but after I got a look at who gets jobs in that field, I moved on. Doesn't mean it wasn't rewarding for me. Mountain biking and skill building for mountain biking are rewarding for me too. Also, lower stress. My self-worth isn't that tied in with what I can do with a bicycle.

My wife and I just had a baby. I'm not going to compete seriously next season (not that being a local Cat. 2 is ever that serious) and I'm riding less than I would under other circumstances. The ride time I get, I'm spending on the parts I love the most. I have to confess that since going back to work, I've pretty much shelved my wheelie project. I'm sure I'll come back to it, probably later rather than sooner.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

andytiedye said:


> I must be getting close to that many hours by now, but have nothing to show for it.


30 Day Wheelie Challenge | Ryan Leech

You have the tenacity it takes to stick with trying to wheelie, so I would recommend you go ahead and drop the $30 and sign up for Ryan's course. It's well worth the time/effort/$$ to learn it correctly.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

soarftb said:


> What is it specifically about the geometries of a dirt jump bike or BMX bike that make them easy to manual? Stack, reach, TT length, HT angle, BB drop? What mountain bike model would be ideal?
> 
> I am thinking wheel size has a lot to do with it. The smaller the wheel the better.


Short Chain stay and seat post angle. You want to be over the rear axle

29ers had long chain stays. New ones are in the 17 inch range instead of 17.8 and it makes a big difference


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

andytiedye said:


> I must be getting close to that many hours by now, but have nothing to show for it.
> 
> The wheel comes up a few inches and slams back to the ground half a second later.
> 
> ...


What bike do you have? Also try wheelies up a grassy slope. Think about how the front unweights when climbing that is a wheelie.

Might be the geometry of the bike is bad.

I tried to wheelie on my daughter's hot rock and it was really hard.my tallboy ltc is hard but doable. Turner czar is easy


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

has anyone ever been able to manual a bike that was too big for them? In the right gear I can wheelie ok but I dont practice it because its not really useful outside of showboating, but a manual is necessary for a lot of areas on the trail here because of awkward down sloping drops that dont have a lip to help pop the wheel up. I have an XL bike when I should be on a L or big medium, at full arm stretch I cant get my weight very far back so manuals seem impossible, it also doesnt help that its a 35lb heifer from 2006.


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## TheHuth (Jul 22, 2015)

I'm certainly no expert on bikes (far from it), but basic physics says you are at a huge disadvantage here.


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

While I would say 29ers with a long wheel base make it 'harder' to control your wheelie, it doesn't make it impossible if you know how to do it. I can sit on my saddle, pop the wheel up and ride it going <5mph, and that is on a 29er. 

Doing it at higher speeds is a bit harder as you don't have as much torque to apply to your pedals to assist with popping the tire up. 

In my opinion, there are a couple of ways to wheelie. The first is the so called "power wheelie" which is what I described above. Using high torque gears to power up the front wheel and hold it. Very little arm support is needed here besides helping with balance.

The other method, which is actually the more "correct" method is using your suspension and/or balance points. This is front loading the front suspension and quickly shifting your weight backwards with a slight pull up on the bars. (I mean VERY slight. Think of standing still in the garage next to your bike, how much pull does it take to lift up the bars? Not much right. Same amount in the wheelie.) It is even easier with a rear suspension as you can use it to "bounce" which further reduces the amount of pull necessary. This is where you could easily transition into j-hopping, or trials work, as you are no longer using rapid acceleration of the rear tire to get the front up.


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## 8burst (Oct 28, 2015)

*A couple of things*



goodmojo said:


> Try doing it slightly down hill on grass, wear a camelbak, try to loop out. On the grass with your back protected you wont worry about falling backwards as much. Once you can get the balance point in the grass, work on the street.
> 
> I like this video


No expert here and haven't read the whole thread. A suggestion when front end drops down immediately is to see if you are actually looking down at your front wheel. Looking way ahead with your chin up (but cover that rear brake) might help. Another interesting video I didn't try, showed reversing the stem to shorten the reach, thus getting your rear further behind the rear axle. Of course you couldn't ride the bike for anything but practicing manuals.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

soload said:


> Could you wheelie when you were younger?


No.


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