# Fixing braking ruts?



## onlycrimson (Nov 11, 2008)

A few of the trails around here have been getting some bad braking ruts at the end of downhills before turns. What is a good way to fix this, if any?


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## LWright (Jan 29, 2006)

Couple of boulders placed in the trail to slow 'em down before the turn?


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

To fix the ruts? Or to stop them from happening?


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

Maybe try adding more flow to the trail so riders don't have to hit the brakes there so much. It's pretty cool to see how making a trail faster will actually decrease the braking impact on it.


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*turns at the bottom of a hill?!!!!*

Ha, that is a common gripe of mine. On both XC ski trails and many Mt Bike trails the builders put turns at the bottom of hills. Why is that? On XC ski trails it creates icy spots in the worst places and they create braking ruts on bike trails.

Oh well. In regards to your question of fixing the braking ruts. My theory is first ya gotta slow the riders down BEFORE they get to bottom of the hill (rocks, log pyramids, sweeping turns, route choice..). Once at the bottom, have a sweeping, flowy turn and/or berms, (or put the turn an immediate uphill if possible).


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

There is alot of good feedback and options given so far. Alot depends on what type of trail you have, are the sight lines good enough to offer a fix where you can allow for downhill riders to carry their speed around the corner? Or is it a high use section with other trail users and climbing bikers where you want to slow them down.

Always the idea of using the corner itself to slow them down leads to the problem.

If you do not want to alter the trail by slowing them down before the turn either by re-shaping the tread into more of an inslope or creating a chicane, or re-routing the trail, you can purchase pavers, and reinforce the tread.


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## schneidie (Aug 30, 2008)

If riders are braking before a turn and creating braking bumps, the best way to eliminate the bumps is to eliminate the braking. I'd suggest making the corner easier to take at speed. My favorite way to do this is to build a berm that riders can use to negotiate the corner. Simple, effective, and damn fun.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

onlycrimson, we're all guessing here. Can you give us more details? Pics maybe?

Fixing the ruts is as easy as raking over and packing down. The next rider is likely to undo your work until you fix the cause.

I volunteer with a kids (8 to 15 year old) bike club and we had a trail that had a steep dip in it. The kids would skid down the hill and not make it up the other side. We fixed the skidding by putting up a sign.

"Stop skidding, you can make it."

Work on kids.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

schneidie said:


> If riders are braking before a turn and creating braking bumps, the best way to eliminate the bumps is to eliminate the braking. I'd suggest making the corner easier to take at speed. My favorite way to do this is to *build a berm *that riders can use to negotiate the corner. Simple, effective, and damn fun.


Exactly. B E R M.



























We have this at the bottom of a decline on an xc trail here in Austin. 
These pictures are from a few years ago right after a work day where we built up the existing berm. I shaped it to have a transitioned face, "bowl corner" style.


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## bweide (Dec 27, 2004)

If the braking bumps are due to panic breaking because the turn is unexpected, a small turn sign like you see on the highway will usually do the trick. Also try visually pinching the trail just before the turn. You don't actually have to pinch the trail, just make it look like there might be a pinch that requires caution and the riders will automatically show down.


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## onlycrimson (Nov 11, 2008)

Ok, this is what's going on. The trails around here often have a "downhill" (just small decline really) that has a turn near the bottom and the ruts are being caused by people braking because they aren't confident in the terrain at the corners. I know berming would be the best option, but the trail coordinators around here might not be open to that. I was wondering how to fix them temporarily, realizing they will have to be fixed again. I'll work on getting more sway behind changing the trails, but for some reason people like to think it "dumbs" the trail down.

I'll try to get photos.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Rake them out and pack the dirt down (as hard as you can) preferably on a damp but not really wet day. This fix won't last very long at all. 

All the suggestion so far are valid depending on the type of trail, pavers, berms, choke points to slow traffic before the turn, better sight lines to improve confidence.

Have the trail coordinators contact any of the builders on this forum & we'll tell them all about it.


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## ramshackle (May 6, 2004)

If you take the turn out and go straight up about the same amount of slope on the other side of the descent, riders will learn that they can stay off the brakes and mo' the section.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Do you have access to rocks? We have an abundance of good armoring rock and have had success using rock. 

Note on Armoring: just putting flat stones down won't work, they'll shift, they'll heave with freeze, and eventually pop out. Get big thick, deep anchor stones with a flat side and dig the base into the ground, place the anchors every 6-8 feet, and lock in other stones between the anchors (and dig them in a bit).


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

onlycrimson said:


> . . . I know berming would be the best option, but the trail coordinators around here might not be open to that. I was wondering how to fix them temporarily, realizing they will have to be fixed again. . . . ..


If berming is the best option, then push for that !! Just round up guys that like to move dirt because it will take a lot. (I'm about to do some drawing and calculation to tell you approximately how much).

If a berm is built correctly in the right place at a spot in trail that needs it, it becomes so obviously useful (and fun) that all the previous skeptics or complainers seem to quiet down. I have seen this happen numerous times.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

Here you go. Clearly there are a lot of other ways this could be done depending on the trail and what kind of berm you want. It could be a mellower or tighter radius, a steeper face, whatever. But, I have built one roughly like this picture, so I know it works. I did not count wheelbarrows at the time. You just keep going till you get it done. Packed clay really is pretty durable. (Sandy or silty soil may not work well at all). We have berms that have not been touched in 3 years and they are still very functional.


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*wow!*

I sincerely appreciate the math but I use a simpler method. The cross section of a berm is a triangle. Which can be approximately half the size of a square.

A curve is a straight line bent. Units equal "yards". (length x width x height) divide by 2 = amount of material. Shape to your heart's content.

But I also feel the math is useless unless they are hauling in material. If in the field, shovel 'til its done.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

cjohnson said:


> I sincerely appreciate the math but I use a simpler method. The cross section of a berm is a triangle. Which can be approximately half the size of a square.
> 
> A curve is a straight line bent. Units equal "yards". (length x width x height) divide by 2 = amount of material. Shape to your heart's content.
> 
> But I also feel the math is useless unless they are hauling in material. If in the field, shovel 'til its done.


i think if you consider the importance of a sturdy backside of the berm, you'll see it's more than just a triangle, or half of a rectangular prism (elongated cube). i estimated at more like 2/3 the dirt of a prism.

the only reason i calculated the # of wheelbarrows was to put things in perspective and show how much dirt even a small berm requires, so that anyone planning can consider how many people can accomplish it in one work day etc.

i have built many berms, rollers, jumps. with a crew and solo. i know exactly how much work and fun it is.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

onlycrimson said:


> Ok, this is what's going on. The trails around here often have a "downhill" (just small decline really) that has a turn near the bottom and the ruts are being caused by people braking because they aren't confident in the terrain at the corners. I know berming would be the best option, but the trail coordinators around here might not be open to that. I was wondering how to fix them temporarily, realizing they will have to be fixed again. I'll work on getting more sway behind changing the trails, but for some reason people like to think it "dumbs" the trail down.
> 
> I'll try to get photos.


Lot of people are pretty berm crazy. Not like i should talk as i'm currently going to build a trail with tons of berms... But i should preface to say it's going to be a one way mountain bike specific trail.

Even if you put a berm into the place you describe it probably won't help. Look at Whistler and see where many of the stutter bumps are, they are directly right in front of a berm. Reason is you have people who will still check their speed and dump on the brakes before they rail the corner.

So now you still have your original problem (braking bumps) and now you have riders carrying ridiculous speed around a corner of a trail that is probably not a one way trail. So it sounds like a prospect for conflict issues with hikers and climbing riders.

Then lastly, the description of putting a bermed turn on the bottom of a downhill just sounds like the thought of drainage doesn't compute. You could still do it but it's going to be alot of work to make the drainage correct.

i'm not saying berms are bad, and not fun, but if you are having a hard time getting the land manager to buy into berms you better make sure you put the first berms in spots that are going to be appropriate, and not cause problems. Because that will just hurt your cause in the long run.

And finally if you build a few mounds of dirt, and inslope a trail just enough you can make it where you can still carry enough speed around a corner that's good for the ride quality and not degrading the trail. (flow) A smartly place pile of dirt, and a smallish lip set strategically on the high side of an insloped trail, for a rider worth his/her salt, they can rail all the same.


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## onlycrimson (Nov 11, 2008)

Thank you for the responses so far. I have a couple pictures, but they are not the best quality. You can still kind of see what's going on. I think the ultimate "fix" will be to work out the bench cutting of the turn because I looked at it pretty good and it's fairly off camber. One picture shows the bumps from the bottom and the other shows the turn.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

My neck was hurting. Those are braking bumps from bikes? That looks more like water pooling. Any motor vehicles on that trail? Something heavier than a bicycle?

I think it's more of a drainage issue. Smoothing out the tread and getting the water off it will probably work.

I see no reason for anybody to be braking hard (or at all) for that corner.

View attachment 570946


View attachment 570947


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Hopefully this makes sense. Slope the fill towards the ditch a little. Pack everything down very well.

Note the culvert under the bermed corner to take the water from the left side to the right side (which looks lower) so it can drain away.

If the land on the left side is lower, the culvert wouldn't be required.

View attachment 570951


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

Trail Ninja said:


> Hopefully this makes sense. Slope the fill towards the ditch a little. Pack everything down very well.
> 
> Note the culvert under the bermed corner to take the water from the left side to the right side (which looks lower) so it can drain away.
> 
> If the land on the left side is lower, the culvert wouldn't be required.


here's a version without a culvert and just a drainage bar or dip before the berm.










This one is more of a turn to "bank" style versus a bowl corner style.










This 180 degree berm is ridden right to left (counter clockwise). Even though it is in the downgradient direction, because the berm is elevated, it doesn't catch water like a catchers mit.


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## onlycrimson (Nov 11, 2008)

Oh wow, thanks! That gives me quite a few ideas on what to do here. Yes, only bikes are allowed on the this trail.


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