# That new trail...it sucks!



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Well, what is it that sucks?

It's actually kind of hard for you to explain, but the gist of it is it isn't like the old trail. The old trail is something that challenges mind and body. It was old school cool, heavily eroded in the places where it plunged down the fall line, tight and twisty with massive exposed roots and rocks. The new reroute is nothing like that.

The old trail had to go though. The survey proved the neighbor's claim to the land was valid, the fence we thought was on the line, was in fact built almost a hundred yards onto his land and our trail was most definitely on his land. Not that he needs any reason, but he is an avid hunter of deer and the riders were scaring the deer off.

Why isn't the new trail like the old trail? It's like I told you. The people like you who claim to love it don't pitch in and help maintain it. The people who are new and fresh and scared, the folks who walk through the gnarliest stuff are the ones showing up to do the new trail rough in, to cut weeds and blow leaves. You told me you just aren't the kind of people who like to join organizations. And why should you? Things were fine just the way they were, if only people would leave them alone.

You claim to love the trail, but it doesn't seem bother you when inches of dirt wash away in a single year. It's only getting bad in one or two places after all. Just more gnar to challenge the skills? Someone else's problem? We'll help when it gets really bad? Sorry, we're so busy all the time!

I don't really care anymore how you rationalize away your lack of involvement, or how you maintain your self righteous superiority. I can't maintain 13+ miles of trail by myself anymore and I'm throwing in my lot with people who will put some of their precious personal time into keeping the trails open. I'm building trail for newbies, because they are the future. You are a relic of the past and fading fast. You have made yourself irrelevant to the discussion. I won't miss you at all.

Walt


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^ Hear!

I would add that the level of the sport has nothing to do with your particular abilities, they are meaningless in the grand scheme of mountain biking.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

If only it were that simple.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

mikesee said:


> If only it were that simple.


Edit/ Apologies if your comment was aimed at the first reply instead of my post. /Edit

My situation actually is exactly that simple. I've had repeated encounters that are essentially the same. I'm not saying my experience describes yours, are you claiming you know my situation better than I do?

Walt


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Are you claiming to know the minds of every rider, hiker, runner, birdwatcher that uses those trails?


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

Walt Dizzy said:


> . . . The old trail is something that challenges mind and body. It was old school cool, heavily eroded in the places where it plunged down the fall line, tight and twisty with massive exposed roots and rocks. The new reroute is nothing like that.
> 
> . . . . I'm building trail for newbies, because they are the future. You are a relic of the past and fading fast. You have made yourself irrelevant to the discussion. I won't miss you at all.


I totally get your frustration with a lot of people not showing up. I also get your frustration with people who are attached to terrain that is actually just erosion-damaged and not necessarily fun/cool.

HOWEVER, I think it's still a legit position for people to say they want trails to be fun/challenging. The issue is what does that mean to different people.

Because my background before MTB was bmx and skateboarding, and I came to mtb via dirt jumping and singlespeed freeride type stuff, I think my perspective is different in the sense that I definitely want there to be obstacles like log-ride-overs, berms, jumps, skinnies, etc. etc. . . . . . but tons of exposed roots on a plain ol xc trail does nothing for me. Especially when it is a mostly flowy/fast trail and then there is a hole or exposed root exactly in a flow-killing spot--such as the bottom of a climb. You use the bottom of the climb to pump up.... Now, exposed roots in the middle of a climb, I'm fine with that. In skateboarding terms, you would want a smooth sidewalk and then a flower bed to ollie over--in other words, smooth-->obstacle-->smooth. Similar things can be done in mtb. If you have a trail that is deep-V'd with tons of small but annoying small roots to bump down... and you want to fix the erosion.... Then you cut fill in the V with replacement dirt, BUT, leave a couple of serious log obstacles to deal with. Erosion fixed, fun preserved....

So, I think the critique of "sanitizing" can be valid. Just not as much as some people throw that word around. And people who are "fixing" trails should also be careful to add challenging elements as much as they take them away. In my humble opinion.

There are ways to build BOTH for newbs and for experts/vets.

There will always be people who don't help trailbuild. In one way, it's a blessing, because they're ONLY complaining and not literally out there undoing what you're doing. If everyone in mountain biking was a digger/builder, you'd have serious trouble.   :thumbsup:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

But then again, in my neighborhood...

That new trail...it sucks!
Well, what is it that sucks?

It's actually kind of hard for you to explain, but the gist of it is it isn't like the trail you rode when you vacationed out west. The trail that any rider could easily clean the first time, that mainly only challenged your fitness level, and was perfectly predictable and cookie-cutter in all it's grades, surfaces and radii. It was new school, with no steeps or anything other than mildly challenging obstacles hidden off to the side once in a great while, and well graded, perfectly monotonous surface. The new trail is nothing like that.

Why isn't the new trail like the trails you rode on vacation? It's like I told you. The people like you who claim to want it don't pitch in and help build it. The people who are new and scared and think they are entitled to have the trails built for them so as not to remotely challenge their novice skill level, the folks who feel they should show up and from day one, should never have to get off and walk through the gnarliest stuff. They are not the ones showing up to do the new trail rough in, to cut weeds and blow leaves. They won't be the ones out there 5 or 10 years down the road either. They'll be Frisbee golfing, or paddleboarding, or geocaching.

I don't really care anymore how you rationalize away your lack of involvement, or how you maintain your self righteous feeling of entitlement. A couple of us can and do maintain 15+ miles of trail by ourselves and I'm throwing in my lot with people who have and will continue to put lots of their precious personal time into keeping the trails open. I'm building trail for experienced riders and beginners that appreciate a challenge, because they are the future. Most newbies show up on shiny bikes and figure out that despite what the salesman said, they don't make every trail a walk in the park, and mtbing around here is a lot more challenging than the dirt sidewalks they rode on vacation, so mostly, they tend to fade fast without ever even really learning to ride. They tend to say things like 'you guys should...' which makes them irrelevant to the discussion. Luckily, you can't come miss those that don't bother to stick around long enough to get to know. 

Dennis



**this is not every beginner of course - we still get a regular trickle of people that 'get it', usually coming from BMX, moto, or some sort of other trail-based type activity. I've actually found that trail runners are pretty often good about helping out with maintenance, particularly the house-keeping type stuff.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

My algorithm for replacement trails:

- Does it meet land owner/manager requirements?
- Did the old trail make sense for its location within the park, preserve, open space?
- Does the replacement trail replace the old section/trail adequately in terms of similar flow, challenge (alternative challenges, features, character?
- Did you get more mileage?
- Did you leave the main line shared use, skill level appropriate for trail location? 
- Did you take precautions in design to mitigates user conflict?
- Do all users have positive control points and interaction?
- Did you make it so that its easier to maintain?
- Did you ask other builders to check it and give you critical feedback before final Land Manager build approval?
- Did those builders come back multiple times and seasons?
- Do the builders ride bikes?
- Did you plan/observe it over at least 3 seasons?
- Did you run it?
- Did you make the land manager happy/meet their goals and objectives?
- Did the volunteers have fun and feel a sense of accomplishment/ownership at the build days?

Notice what's not there?

I am hiking / biking to the put up or shut up camp with Walt on user input. Always gonna have haters no matter what you accomplish and how happy everyone else is.

Its a different set of circumstances if its illegal trail built by illegal/rogue trail builders, get em legal so no one messes with them. If you can't get em legal, then your mileage will vary and anything can and will happen to them, even someone else getting them legal and then fixing them the way they see fit...

Slappy - What New Englanders don't get is you add speed to make smooth trails harder, then a different set of technical skills comes to play very quickly with same or worse consequences to rock/root/boulder/ledge riding.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

mikesee said:


> Are you claiming to know the minds of every rider, hiker, runner, birdwatcher that uses those trails?


No. What is the relevance?

Walt


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> But then again, in my neighborhood...
> 
> That new trail...it sucks!
> Well, what is it that sucks?
> ...


YMMV. My experience doesn't match yours. I'd go along with your view if it wasn't for the time-sucking maintenance issues I've been saddled with combined with the user base who don't "have time" to do anything beyond ride. Glad it's working for you.

Walt


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

cmc4130 said:


> I totally get your frustration with a lot of people not showing up. I also get your frustration with people who are attached to terrain that is actually just erosion-damaged and not necessarily fun/cool.
> 
> HOWEVER, I think it's still a legit position for people to say they want trails to be fun/challenging. The issue is what does that mean to different people.
> 
> ...


Actually, I don't disagree with anything you've stated.

To me, the moment that put my entire conversation over the top was the point when I asked the rider who complained about the new trail if she had ridden the new section of old school trail we put in a couple years ago. No. Do you understand we're keeping the gnarliest parts of the loop that contains the reroute the same? Doesn't matter, you changed something and I don't like it. Did you catch that the "sanitized" part of the trail you're complaining about is mostly downhill and may end up being more fun to ride if you can let off the brakes? Just a little? But there's a part of it that's not downhill. I get frustrated because there's absolutely nothing I can say that will convince the righteous that it's not entirely about what makes them happy. The slippery slope has done been entered!

I totally get it that there should be trail which is challenging to ride. We have lots of that. We will continue to have lots. Most people I talk to have some flexibility in their character and are capable of enjoying a variety of difficulty in what they ride. An unfortunate few have apparently wedded their self image to being some kind of bad dudes who ride where no one else dare, and seem to feel threatened by any change to "their" trail. Around here, the bad dudes don't have "contributing to keeping the trails open" as part of the 'tude. The trail system I love and have devoted myself to attracts them, and it's my problem to deal with. I will do what it takes to open the trails to more users and just realize there's no pleasing some folks.

Walt


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Develop an effective smirk. A you whine at me boy and I'm going to make you wet your pants and cry in front of chicks smirk is worthwhile.


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## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

Out here in San Diego, trail maintenance can only happen in a very short window of time due to the dry environment. We can usually muster a decent crowd for for a trail day but the prolonged stuff is not as sexy. We are ridiculously low on legal established trails so each new sanctioned trail is usually appreciated by most, including the non-builders. 

The biggest problem we have is poor original design that allows for cutting of the switch backs due to them being too closely packed on a slope. Hikers and dry brush create huge problems and it is hard to educate even if the line is fixed. "How dare you make my hike up/down the mountain less than direct."

So the "trail sucks" mentality will always be alive everywhere. You can't make everyone happy all the time. You cater to the majority and hope you can educate the minority.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Short response to "The new trail sucks." that I've actually used: "I didn't see you helping build it." - at that point, I'm completely done with the conversation.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Cotharyus said:


> Short response to "The new trail sucks." that I've actually used: "I didn't see you helping build it." - at that point, I'm completely done with the conversation.


Thanks, this helps.

Walt


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

thefriar said:


> Slappy - What New Englanders don't get is you add speed to make smooth trails harder, then a different set of technical skills comes to play very quickly with same or worse consequences to rock/root/boulder/ledge riding.


Oh, we get it alright. As you know though, the thing is, our terrain doesn't lend itself to that type of trail in general. So, when some riders ask 'hey, how come you guys don't make some smooth, flowy trails like I rode when I went (insert destination here), they don't realize that to replicate something like that in NE, you're talking major construction - tons of machine work, importing materials not just for building, but also on an ongoing basis for maintenance, and also way, way more requirements for ongoing maintenance. Most of the guys that build trail around here I don't think want to get stuck spending the majority of their time keeping up with trails that they likely find monotonous and boring (I'm generalizing of course). Basically for beginners looking for easy terrain so they can feel fast, the answer usually is to go hit up the dirt roads.

It seems that once the riders who are looking for smooth and easy terrain find out what's involved in actually making that happen, they very rarely go beyond just talking about it. I think around here, the trailbuilder personality tends to not usually be the sort who's looking for easy trails, and the folks looking for easy trails don't tend to be the sort that are willing to go through the ridiculous amount of effort it would take to alter the terrain enough to get what they're looking for (hell, if they were, they'd probably just decide their time is better spent learning how to ride the terrain we already have boatloads of).

As with everything, it's all about the local situation.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Walt Dizzy said:


> YMMV. My experience doesn't match yours. I'd go along with your view if it wasn't for the time-sucking maintenance issues I've been saddled with combined with the user base who don't "have time" to do anything beyond ride. Glad it's working for you.
> 
> Walt


Likewise man. As long as trails are getting built, it's all good. And as far as what those trails end up like, those who dig, decide.


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## Joules (Oct 12, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> I think around here, the trailbuilder personality tends to not usually be the sort who's looking for easy trails, and the folks looking for easy trails don't tend to be the sort that are willing to go through the ridiculous amount of effort it would take to alter the terrain enough to get what they're looking for (hell, if they were, they'd probably just decide their time is better spent learning how to ride the terrain we already have boatloads of).
> 
> As with everything, it's all about the local situation.


This kind of echos my experience. Kind of. My philosophy now is that Mountain Biking is not just one sport. To put it in stupid buzzwords: XC and DH riding are both "mountain biking" yet they have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

The majority of riders I see are "XC" types that don't want to be challenged at all; they are the type that if a 3" branch falls across the trail, they'll ride around it. If a 5" log falls, someone will build a ramp over it; because they don't ever want the ability to hop a log. 
These are the kind of riders that are demanding "flow" trails. They are not the kind of riders that ever show up to work days.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Cotharyus has a point. I don't like to offend or alienate users, but at some point, it does come down to those that are there make decisions.

Walt, Don't beat yourself up. I'm guessing a bunch of riders still love your new lines and see the value and get the links, few people can crush a new line on sight.

There's always a (or several) local heroes that people look up to, getting them on-board if possible and understanding things can be an easy way to nip things in the bud too. If so and so says its X, Y, and Z, then its the truth.



slapheadmofo said:


> ... they don't realize that to replicate something like that in NE, you're talking major construction - tons of machine work, importing materials not just for building, but also on an ongoing basis for maintenance, and also way, way more requirements for ongoing maintenance...
> 
> ...I think around here, the trailbuilder personality tends to not usually be the sort who's looking for easy trails, and the folks looking for easy trails don't tend to be the sort that are willing to go through the ridiculous amount of effort it would take to alter the terrain enough to get what they're looking for (hell, if they were, they'd probably just decide their time is better spent learning how to ride the terrain we already have boatloads of)...


Its hard work, but doesn't require mech, importing, or any more maintenance than on going maintenance for non-flow type trail. Need a crew that knows how to build it right and doesn't cut corners.

I am starting another thread on the topic of flow = easy, upon which I call BS.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

thefriar said:


> Its hard work, but doesn't require mech, importing, or any more maintenance than on going maintenance for non-flow type trail. Need a crew that knows how to build it right and doesn't cut corners.


As I said, I'm pretty sure those people don't really have an interest in spending a ton of time pulling out most of the rocks that most of us find are more fun to just ride over in the first place.

I liken a 'flow' trail to a really long pumptrack, and I know from my own experience w/ p-tracks that they require magnitudes more work both up-front and in ongoing maintenance than typical NE singletrack does. I end up spending more time working on and maintaining our local little track than I do keeping up with 15 miles of singletrack and adding a mile or 2 a year.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

If there isn't good side slope or bench cut takes too much time, its tougher to get easy/pro flow trail in one line. But it can be done so it doesn't take on-going work, just takes effort by hand at the start and if your builders don't build it or like building it, meh. 

NEMBA Trail School had a Flow Trail building in New England for New England Builders by New England Builders, hopefully we see that back on the menu. 

Also see: Vietnam... the "flow" trail there is all rollable with go arounds and smoove.

Below is from Wilton Woods Red Trail, its flows top bottom and has go rounds for everything. The rocks are integrated into the flow.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

thefriar said:


> Also see: Vietnam... the "flow" trail there is all rollable with go arounds and smoove.
> 
> Below is from Wilton Woods Red Trail, its flows top bottom and has go rounds for everything. The rocks are integrated into the flow.


See, I don't think either of those places would fit the definition of a 'flow' trail anywhere but here in NE. I'm glad you mention 'Nam - I actually helped out on some of the building there and know a lot of those guys. Is the new stuff 'flowier' than the old stuff there? I suppose, but at the cost of incredible amounts of effort building and maintaining it, much to questionable benefit IMHO. And still, if you brought someone from most anywhere else there and said 'here's our flow trail', they'd probably think you were joking. Personally, I thought that place was the most fun back in the early 90's, before all the manicuring. Had way more real 'flow' before there were a million intersections and b-lines and they didn't spend endless hours pulling all the rocks out of the trail surface and then lining the edges of the trails with them pointy-side up.

FWIW, I'd be willing to bet you'd find the trails I build flow a lot better than anything you're going to find in Nam.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Nam everyone in NE knows or knows of, easy ref point. The flowy jump gappy trail is the only "flow" trail there I was referencing. rest of the place is point to point and a bit jumbled if you don't have a good guide.

Edit: Meh... just build what you want and when people complain... whatevs if they're not there to pitch in... but don't be a punk, give em and opportunity to have a stake in the game and hear em out when they do show.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

thefriar said:


> Nam everyone in NE knows or knows of, easy ref point. The flowy jump gappy trail is the only "flow" trail there I was referencing. rest of the place is point to point and a bit jumbled if you don't have a good guide.
> 
> Sustainable smooth flow trails can be built in new england. It takes good builders and dedicated labor.


...and to the original point - most of the main guys building there are long'time 'hardcore' bikers that tend to ride a lot of technical terrain. What's the term they like to use for their riding style, 'cross-stuntery' right?

The trail you mention "DLS" (or 'Dirty Little Secret") was originally referred to as a 'freeride' trail (one of the main reasons we purchased Nam was so that we could have a place to build things that you never would be able to on trails on public lands, such as large drops and gaps, etc). I don't think that thing would be considered a 'flow' or beginner friendly trail by any standard, specially since it would require a beginner to walk quite a ways into the woods to reach it before ever being able to get on their bike.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

If you were on the last big NEMBA group ride there a few years ago, definitely had some beginners back there, they loved it! Smiles from ear to ear even though they rode around stuff on that trail. 

If you're ever in SW CT open invite, or if you want a Millers tour, always happy to bump around there... rockland is fun but I don't know it as well, lots of smooth flow that gets trickier with speed.

Walt apologies for the hi-jack.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

bsieb said:


> Develop an effective smirk. A you whine at me boy and I'm going to make you wet your pants and cry in front of chicks smirk is worthwhile.


No question a thicker skin is the way to go. But I hope I'm making myself clear: the core problem isn't lack of respect for me, it's the resistance to necessary change.

When I started out, I was totally into the way the trails were and very committed to making the absolute minimum of changes. Unfortunately, as time has passed problems have developed. The original layout included a number of fall line sections, trail built below seeps, trail built on top of silt soil in poor drainage, trail built over the property line, and for some reason (climate change?) weed growth in the last couple of years has been...spectacular. Also, we ran into problems with inadequate documentation of authority for our most recent trail loop that has resulted in a 3 year suspension of progress, maybe it will end up worse than that.

I am dealing with all of the problems, but it's getting more and more like that cartoon where the dam is developing leaks and the main character is plugging them with a finger, then fingers, then both hands, then kicking off his shoes and using his toes to stop the leaks. I've had to make public pleas for help to keep up. I've had to abandon problem trail and reroute. The response I've gotten from the old timers can be summed up as: "How dare you make changes to our precious!" On the other hand, the attitude of newer riders has been positive, and even more to the point, they offer to help.

My age is becoming a factor. At 59 years old, I'm getting out on the tail end of being able to bust a$$ all day doing trail work. The park manager told me recently if my partner and I quit, he will probably shut the trails down because he doesn't see anyone else contributing. I'm working hard to get the maintenance issues under control, deal with the legal problems, and most importantly, to build a user base who are involved and can take over when I have to bow out.

If people want to ***** at me about "dumbing down" the trails, I get it. I'm well down the slippery slope. But I'm seeing it as a matter of survival, and by buffing some trail I can maybe save the best, most challenging stuff. I see my choice as compromise or total loss.

Walt


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

I think one thing we need to remember is that the complainers are always more vocal and obvious. You may have a ratio of 20 satisfied riders to 1 dissatisfied riders, but the dissatisfied riders are so loud, it seems like everyone hates the re-route, but in all reality, the majority like it. That's been what I've noticed over the years.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Walt...

Don't listen to the haters or whiners, they might be guilty they don't do anything and they're manifesting that as negative attitude to you since you do do so much.

You're doing the right thing and fighting the good fight.

We all have burn out, managing that is key to a successful trail system and advocacy organization. Embrace the youngins/newbs, buy em a beer, get them to take the next step. Maybe someone can lighten the load or you and the partner can say one of you is "off duty" for the next 3-6 months.

We're all in there with you, we all go through it and this forum is a great outlet and support group.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Walt, you may have to back off a bit, sometimes that forces others to act. Might not be pretty for awhile, but the torch must be passed eventually. Are your LMs private or gov't? 

In my case we have develpoed a thriving Youth Conservation Corps (YCC) program which has several experienced trail crews and a highly qualified superintendent/trail engineer. YCC is a youth workforce development program which gets state and federal money. If your state has a YCC program you might look into joining or developing a program paired with an existing youth related nonprofit or local government. You basically have people to do the actual work and engineering details and you stick to exploring and developing new routes, improving old routes, and doing riding inspections.


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## TrailYoda (Feb 23, 2009)

RYNOFREERIDE said:


> I think one thing we need to remember is that the complainers are always more vocal and obvious. You may have a ratio of 20 satisfied riders to 1 dissatisfied riders, but the dissatisfied riders are so loud, it seems like everyone hates the re-route, but in all reality, the majority like it.


As other posters have pointed out, dealing with the vocal few (especially in an internet age) can be discouraging. But staying calm, avoiding anger and bitterness is essential. It is easy to develop a martyr complex doing advocacy, but it only hurts drawing others to your cause & helping you.

In my experience I have found, "You can please some of the people some of the time, you can please most of the people most of the time. You can never please all of the people all of the time." If you ignore this truth you will be the one who is disillusioned and frustrated. Understand who it is important to please (eg. Landmanager) and who it is not, but be kind and respectful to all.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone." 
― Bill Cosby


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

TrailYoda said:


> As other posters have pointed out, dealing with the vocal few (especially in an internet age) can be discouraging. But staying calm, avoiding anger and bitterness is essential. It is easy to develop a martyr complex doing advocacy, but it only hurts drawing others to your cause & helping you.
> 
> In my experience I have found, "You can please some of the people some of the time, you can please most of the people most of the time. You can never please all of the people all of the time." If you ignore this truth you will be the one who is disillusioned and frustrated. Understand who it is important to please (eg. Landmanager) and who it is not, but be kind and respectful to all.
> 
> ...


TrailYoda speaks wisely.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

bsieb said:


> Walt, you may have to back off a bit, sometimes that forces others to act. Might not be pretty for awhile, but the torch must be passed eventually. Are your LMs private or gov't?
> 
> In my case we have develpoed a thriving Youth Conservation Corps (YCC) program which has several experienced trail crews and a highly qualified superintendent/trail engineer. YCC is a youth workforce development program which gets state and federal money. If your state has a YCC program you might look into joining or developing a program paired with an existing youth related nonprofit or local government. You basically have people to do the actual work and engineering details and you stick to exploring and developing new routes, improving old routes, and doing riding inspections.


Good point.

I did weed cutting on one loop this year, then I let anyone who would listen know I was done. I posted up on the club forums asking for help too.

Several people stepped up and handled the rest. It was a major improvement for me because I was able to spend a couple of weeks building switchbacks that would have taken a lot longer if I'd broken off to do routine maintenance. Now I have a new set of built features to show people what I can do if I get some help.

The trail in question is on state land. Not sure if there is a YCC group available, but I'll ask.

Walt


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

TrailYoda said:


> As other posters have pointed out, dealing with the vocal few (especially in an internet age) can be discouraging. But staying calm, avoiding anger and bitterness is essential. It is easy to develop a martyr complex doing advocacy, but it only hurts drawing others to your cause & helping you.
> 
> In my experience I have found, "You can please some of the people some of the time, you can please most of the people most of the time. You can never please all of the people all of the time." If you ignore this truth you will be the one who is disillusioned and frustrated. Understand who it is important to please (eg. Landmanager) and who it is not, but be kind and respectful to all.
> 
> ...


I don't get into arguments with anyone over the issues stated at the beginning of the post. No name calling, yelling, swearing, personal attacks, pouting, threats to quit, etc. It's not my style and I don't believe it's productive

As you point out, my job isn't to make everyone happy.

My hope in engaging with the person who didn't like the new trail was to maybe get her to acknowledge suckitude is relative. I didn't rip on her for not liking the trail, but if I can get her to say " I don't like the new trail because..." whatever, in my mind that is an improvement over just letting her say it sucks on whatever absolute scale trails are judged on.

Possibly this was a waste of my time and her time, but I felt better (not great, but better) about it after trying to explain my point of view. I have no illusions that I changed her mind about the value of what I trying to do. My #1 goal was to get her to dial down the rhetoric. #2 was to point out that she is going to have to share the trails with people who are willing to contribute.

I agree that it's important to be respectful to all, including people who don't like me or what I'm doing. However, I do think that anyone who is advertising their negative opinion out in public should have something to back it up-or admit it's just their opinion.

Walt


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

It's a very fine line that Walt is treading and one I am familiar with. This is not criticism of Walt, but just to say he is a victim of circumstance. Being caught between a vocal but unhelpful riding public and a land manager honest enough to say the entire trail system is on the ropes is not a nice place to be. The trouble is you know how to make things right for the LM, but do not have the manpower to do it fast enough that the riders are overwhelmed by the positive changes. If you get help from inexperienced volunteers, you have to supervise to the extent you don't build yourself and things actually don't move forward as fast as they might if you were "alone". You start to look selfish or elitist if you then stick with your little band of trusted helpers and riders can continue to say that "you" are responsible for all the unexpected and disappointing changes. 

The expectations of some people are just hard to understand. One of our guys cut up a fallen tree after a fire recently. It had been turned into a log-over made up of a few branches and partially attached limbs with gaps up to 80cm between them and no ramp up either side. It was on a fast section of moderately tech trail and completely out of place, as well as dangerous and dreadfully built. In essence it was an unrideable pile of junk, but sure enough some bozo had to have a go at him for making the trail passable again. You just have to laugh I guess.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

In my 25 years of advocacy I have found an ample supply of riders who have all sorts of ideas for what we ought to do. There are as many who complain about what has been done. There are far fewer who show up, for any number of reasons, but insist on their expertise.

I think that many do their best to move dirt and legislation and there are those who bring people together or gather resources in the best spirit of mountain biking in the context available.

It would be nice to just be able to ride great trails but those don't just appear out of thin air.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

One of our CCCMB founders has a saying, after 28 years of advocacy and building.

"No good deed goes unpunished."

When someone complains, just say this in a pleasant way with a smile. The reaction of the complainer is usually very interesting. Some just stop, I have never seen one be offended, some will ask what you mean, and that opens the door to dialog of what it really takes to get new trails approved and built. Rarely you get a new advocate, but they usually do not complain the next time they see you. I've seen a few show up at the next work day.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

TrailYoda said:


> As other posters have pointed out, dealing with the vocal few (especially in an internet age) can be discouraging. But staying calm, avoiding anger and bitterness is essential. It is easy to develop a martyr complex doing advocacy, but it only hurts drawing others to your cause & helping you.
> 
> In my experience I have found, "You can please some of the people some of the time, you can please most of the people most of the time. You can never please all of the people all of the time." If you ignore this truth you will be the one who is disillusioned and frustrated. Understand who it is important to please (eg. Landmanager) and who it is not, but be kind and respectful to all.
> 
> ...


Damn that's a good post. Speaks truth he does.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Ridnparadise said:


> It's a very fine line that Walt is treading and one I am familiar with. This is not criticism of Walt, but just to say he is a victim of circumstance. Being caught between a vocal but unhelpful riding public and a land manager honest enough to say the entire trail system is on the ropes is not a nice place to be. The trouble is you know how to make things right for the LM, but do not have the manpower to do it fast enough that the riders are overwhelmed by the positive changes. If you get help from inexperienced volunteers, you have to supervise to the extent you don't build yourself and things actually don't move forward as fast as they might if you were "alone". You start to look selfish or elitist if you then stick with your little band of trusted helpers and riders can continue to say that "you" are responsible for all the unexpected and disappointing changes.
> 
> The expectations of some people are just hard to understand. One of our guys cut up a fallen tree after a fire recently. It had been turned into a log-over made up of a few branches and partially attached limbs with gaps up to 80cm between them and no ramp up either side. It was on a fast section of moderately tech trail and completely out of place, as well as dangerous and dreadfully built. In essence it was an unrideable pile of junk, but sure enough some bozo had to have a go at him for making the trail passable again. You just have to laugh I guess.


Thanks. You understand.

The issue for me is not that someone might not like a section of trail, it's the riders who want the trail to only be the way they like it, but feel no obligation to contribute, because, hey, they just aren't the kind of people who join things. The ones who don't care if that makes the trail unusable for riders who would contribute, because those people should just learn to ride it the way it is.

These are the "everyone"s who I can't please. Not without burning myself out and letting the trails erode into ruin. It's pretty clear who my friends are.

Walt


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

Reading this thread reminded me of this one in the Ohio forum

http://forums.mtbr.com/midwest-il-o...ail-cleveland-oh-opening-june-7-a-916237.html


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

jeffw-13 said:


> Reading this thread reminded me of this one in the Ohio forum
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/midwest-il-o...ail-cleveland-oh-opening-june-7-a-916237.html


For those who won't read through the linked thread:

It starts out as a notice that there is a new mountain bike trail opening in the Cleveland OH area. It immediately degenerates into a series of complaints that the new trail isn't very good and there isn't enough challenging trail available in the state.

The guy who posts the most complaints to the thread, syklysst, is challenged by one of the guys who built the trail in question to get active and build that challenging trail.

"Although I do agree that we folks that want harder stuff need to be more active, but I did my part decades ago and really don't have the time anymore..or I would have to quit riding, which defeats the purpose.
What can be done though is..." and the post goes on to explain how people who are actually working to get trail built can make the kind of trail that syklysst likes to ride.

So, by his own admission this individual has contributed nothing in *decades*. Thanks, this illustrates my point perfectly.

Walt


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

The irony is that there's a very challenging trail only 30 miles away.

West Branch State Park - Full Tour Mountain Bike Trail, Ravenna, OH


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

We spent two intense days starting a new thrilling but safe riding area at our ski club. Back story is we've got the help of Trek's professional trail builder, had a rental mini ex, and spent much of the summer planning, using 2 ft contour maps of the place to aid getting ride of old school fall line chicken scratchings and tie all new work and the best old work together.

The new trail cuts across a classic example of rake and ride crap former racers and free riders made. Same sort of stuff Walt's eliminating. One person riding today came up the old crap trail and joked "You wrecked my favorite trail" he happened to be one of our digger stalwarts. A short while later I heard strange grunting noises and a spandex clad racer dude was coming up the miserable fall line rut that was cut off by new trail. His complaint was not a joke.

I took the high road. First pointing out everything about the project has been quite public, and suggested he get involved with the club's trail committee. What I learned from him was racers don't have time for any of that, they need brutal trail for training, and his thinking owning carbon fiber, titanium and team jerseys pays for others to do trail work. I look forward to our open house next week where I'm guessing most members will appreciate more progress toward getting ride of trails that really do suck.

At this point I'll keep going with new school design and moves that won't mean most trail work is fixing same crap.

Work in progress but a great start:

New section looking top down:










Same section view across:


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Those complainers would hate it here in Utah. We have trails shared with motos that are different every single time you ride them. And by different I mean more eroded.


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## Tom Shaw (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks for starting a really good post Walt. The ideas in here are a fantastic thing for trail builders and club leaders to think about.

"My age is becoming a factor. At 59 years old, I'm getting out on the tail end of being able to bust a$$ all day doing trail work. The park manager told me recently if my partner and I quit, he will probably shut the trails down because he doesn't see anyone else contributing. I'm working hard to get the maintenance issues under control, deal with the legal problems, and most importantly, to build a user base who are involved and can take over when I have to bow out."

Is your trail system a user pay system? 
Is there enough users to pay for trail work so that your time can be spent on organizing the work and the non helpers money can pay for workers to grunt out needed tasks?
I hate the thoughts of something that many love being lost because a couple of people cannot continue carrying the rest. Perhaps the park manager is open to helping with a money stream for these trails. Most/all people would rather ride then work, so all should help with the work by giving a bit of trail money.

Just a thought that I am sure you have thought lots about.

Again THANKS for the discussion Walt.


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## gravitylover (Sep 1, 2009)

I wish I could make the time to join official trail work days. Unfortunately when you work in the bike industry you have to work weekends (Saturdays in particular) and that's usually when work days are scheduled. I make time during the winter to do some trail maintenance and usually do 15-30 minutes worth of work each time I get out but that seems to be frowned upon because it's not authorized.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

I put out a suggestion that we be more flexible about what we require of our volunteers. There is a sense that you want them for 4-8 holr stints. Yet when someone only has a very limited time to ride (for all the reasons we all know: no judgement here) to have guys stop in the middle of their ride and toss in an hour would be welcome. 

I was struck with the resistance I got from a few of our leader volunteers for that.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I put out a suggestion that we be more flexible about what we require of our volunteers. There is a sense that you want them for 4-8 houlr stints. Yet when someone only have a very limited time to ride (for all the reasons we all know: no judgement here) have guys stop in the middle of their ride and toss in an hour would be welcome.
> 
> I was struck with the resistance I got from a few of our volunteers for that.


If we didn't have wives or kids we'd have all the time in the world! Therefore, I prefer to do my maintenance while hiking or mid-ride. It helps to have a cache of tools out there somewhere so you don't have to haul them in.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Whenever we do work we always have people riding through and saying thank you. They could lend a hand for a few minutes.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Thought I'd just throw this in for perspective. Last Sunday was Father's Day in Australia. Our hardest working volunteer decided he would go out alone and collect more rock for a walled turn we are building above a creek. A very frequent, local rider who has never helped but has suggested we get off our butt and do this or that many times passed by on a fire road. Her comment this time - "Don't make the trails too wide or smooth!". She was 20m from a rocky singletrack going the way she was going..........


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Walt Dizzy said:


> Well, what is it that sucks?
> 
> It's actually kind of hard for you to explain, but the gist of it is it isn't like the old trail. The old trail is something that challenges mind and body. It was old school cool, heavily eroded in the places where it plunged down the fall line, tight and twisty with massive exposed roots and rocks. The new reroute is nothing like that.
> 
> ...


QFT!

Simply said, if you don't show up for the work days, you have no right to b!tch about the end results.

We did a massive reroute a few months ago on an iconic trail here in Pisgah this year. From the very first planning stage (The day they walked the trail to assess what needed to be done) there was an open invitation for everyone to join and give input. Did the negative nancy's show up to say what they wanted to happen? Nope, not one. 
Did they show up to turn dirt? Nope, not one. Did they sit behind a computer screen and b!tch that the trail was getting worked? Yup, all of them. If you call them out, they all seem to have the same story about how they built xyz trail that nobody ever heard about or were on some project that nobody remembers who they are. In reality, if they really did some serious dirt turning, they wouldn't be so quick to ***** about the efforts of others because they wold know how much work went in to making it happen.

If you don't show up to help, your opinion is invalid. It doesn't matter what you did yesterday but where you are going tomorrow.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I put out a suggestion that we be more flexible about what we require of our volunteers. There is a sense that you want them for 4-8 holr stints. Yet when someone only has a very limited time to ride (for all the reasons we all know: no judgement here) to have guys stop in the middle of their ride and toss in an hour would be welcome.
> 
> I was struck with the resistance I got from a few of our leader volunteers for that.


 Most of our trail days are 1/2 days, then free lunch and a ride. Works usually OK. This week I had stuff going on so I just did trail work and lunch. I always carry my silky folding saw in my pack for mid ride tree and branch trail clean up.


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## tarp43 (Mar 1, 2007)

great thread. walt - keep up the good work and keep on keep'n on!


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Reading this is amusing. It puts into context the complaining we deal with. The industry needs to redefine what it is to be a Mountain Biker. Just because you ride them a lot, doesn't mean you know anything about Mountain Bike Trails. No dig, no ride, IMO.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

The message I got from this thread: people who say a trail sucks should at least go into more detail about why it sucks. Trail building philosophy is complex. People should be more humble, knowing that people in other areas are less fortunate, getting by with worse circumstances and conditions. There's a serious lack of people contributing to trails. Trail builders have a right to be verbally hostile to complainers who did not do trail work on the trail they're complaining about and should exercise it. Payment (perhaps trail work) maybe should be a prerequisite for earning the privilege to ride on public trails.

Did I understand correctly? Seems like the main point is relatively unclear.


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## tarp43 (Mar 1, 2007)

My take was the OP was venting his frustrations. He's a trail advocate working hard and doing good work for his trail using community only to be told by trail users that his "trail sucks". unfortunately so many trail users take the trail maintenance performed by unpaid volunteers for granted. its one thing when folks don't show up for trail work days, donate to your organization but another thing to have done the work to hear get feedback that your trail sucks.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DaveVt said:


> The industry needs to redefine what it is to be a Mountain Biker.


"The Industry" is the last entity that I think should ever have any say in what it means to be a mountain biker. The only thing that drives the industry is profit, and balance sheets have nothing to do with riding trails IMO.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> "The Industry" is the last entity that I think should ever have any say in what it means to be a mountain biker. The only thing that drives the industry is profit, and balance sheets have nothing to do with riding trails IMO.


Right. If the industry had its way, the definition of a mountain biker would be a fat slob lawyer/doctor dressed like a stormtrooper on a DH e-bike.


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## bweide (Dec 27, 2004)

"Trail builders have a right to be verbally hostile to complainers who did not do trail work on the trail they're complaining about and should exercise it."

I didn't see anything in this thread that really supports what your sentence above states. However, I agree with your sentence if you substitute the word "ignore" for the words "verbally hostile".

Trail builders have a right to IGNORE complainers who did not do trail work on the trail they're complaining about and should exercise it.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

A friend of mine was an avid volunteer at the school at which she taught for many years. She got some grief from a couple of the parents who, typically, did nothing. She was shattered.

I had a few parents on my teams who did the same thing, and complained in a foreign language, muttering at the races with each other. I have a thick skin and told my wife, who was appalled, that they simply did not matter to me and that leaders get crap like that.

This is not new.


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## ZigaK (Sep 9, 2009)

What difference does it make if they complained in a foreign language? 
If anything this should be a mitigating factor, for what you know they might as well praise you


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

It was a matter of talking behind my back. It had an undermining effect. They didn't realize I spoke a bit of the language. It is just really small and a disappointing thing to find out about people. You shake you head and move on but it is creepy.


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

A veteran trail builder shared this nugget with me today: "Build it and they will complain."


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

Maybe our new trails do suck. 

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

I've been building trails for over a decade now and I think most of the new sustainable stuff we have built is just as fun as the old stuff it replaced and a heck of a lot easier to maintain.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

RYNOFREERIDE said:


> Maybe our new trails do suck.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


I'll elaborate on this a bit I guess. We rode a flow trail in Idaho last weekend and, well, it was terrible. The trail isn't very old but erosion is already pretty bad with big chunks of dirt missing on each jump or roller. I assume this comes from people slamming on their brakes at that point because they can't really see what's ahead. Then there is the sign that says "Flow trail starts here" which gets you all psyched up for awesome, then you immediately climb up 3 switchbacks? WTF? This climbing segment is also built like the rest of the flow trail. For what? Nobody can come down this way so why not build it like the trail we just climbed to get here?

Fortunately, that flow trail wasn't very long and there was a segment of trail further down the mountain that made the climb worth it. Another trail (Imperial) down the road a ways was much better. 5 miles of DH built the old-fashioned way (not "fall-line" old-fashioned). Brutal climb to the top though!


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## bweide (Dec 27, 2004)

We recently had a Thousand Year storm. The new trails that were built to conservative sustainable guidelines came through just fine. In fact, if you were unfamiliar with the trail, you wouldn't have know there was a storm. Other new trails that pushed things a bit too far from the sustainable guidelines were seriously damaged.


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## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

bweide said:


> We recently had a Thousand Year storm. The new trails that were built to conservative sustainable guidelines came through just fine. In fact, if you were unfamiliar with the trail, you wouldn't have know there was a storm. Other new trails that pushed things a bit too far from the sustainable guidelines were seriously damaged.


Yes! Despite the fact that a lot of riders and even more than a few trail builders think the concept of sustainable trails is a large crock, the proof is in the puddin'. I've also been pleased to see how well our local trails that were thoughtfully designed and built with careful attention to siting, grade control, and drainage are holding up despite at least two "hundred-year" storms in the last few years. Why invest a lot of time, effort, and money building some piece-o-crap trail that, while being fun to ride (for a while), won't hold up to the ravages of mother nature or user wear and tear? I for one much prefer building new trails instead of futilely trying to repair other people's mistakes, anyway.

Preaching to the choir here, I know. Wish more of the trail users could see past their own grandiose senses of self entitlement and recognize that we build trails to sustainable standards for a very good reason. Yes, they may sometimes turn out to be technically less challenging than some people crave (although they don't have to be), but they are still fun to ride. The important thing is that designing and building for durability makes spending money on trails a good long-term investment instead of a losing proposition.


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## gravitylover (Sep 1, 2009)

DaveVt said:


> Reading this is amusing. It puts into context the complaining we deal with. ... No dig, no ride, IMO.


Sorry Dave but some of us work weekends. I'll remember to get a road bike so I don't make a bad impression by riding trails without volunteering to show up for "official" trail work days.

Nah, actually I'll take what free time I do have during the winter and go do all of the work that didn't get done during the season. I might even make things better but they'll never know who/why/when. Then during the riding season we'll all enjoy the fruits of our labor whether done officially or not.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

gravitylover said:


> I might even make things better but they'll never know who/why/when. Then during the riding season we'll all enjoy the fruits of our labor whether done officially or not.


I'm writing the message to others that read this and think its a good idea... not G/L specifically...

Don't just work on a trail, unless you know the builders, they trust you, and you have a plan agreed. Official work doesn't have to be done on official days, it just has to be official. If its not legal trail then I guess YMMV.

Better also is very subjective, if you didn't build it, don't "improve" it unless you have permission from a Land Manager (who will put you in touch with official/original builders).

[sorry for rant, have someone ramping logs, technical ledges, and log ride on and offs at a rather technical area in CT, and they put back whatever we take out. Every Wed and Sat dealing with their "fixes" for past 5 weeks, no response to notes left on site. Trail and all natural features are legit and many of the ramps eliminate "qualifiers" to other TTFs.]


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## gravitylover (Sep 1, 2009)

Clarified - I wouldn't undo anybodys good work and unless it's to save significant (possible) injury to body or environment I don't make things easier. I might cut out a piece of downed tree or do the most minor go 'round if that's the right option and I might clean up a poor drainage spot or armor a wet area but if it can't be done with a folding rake, handheld clipper and my hands I won't do it. No power tools, shovels or even a lopper and if the downed tree is too big for a folding hand saw it gets ramped or bypassed, I've never even cut a 1/2" sapling. I guess it's like this - if you can tell I've been there after I'm done I did too much. The land determines the line, I just flesh it out.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I've been involved with all aspects of designing, advocating for and building miles of trails and the only reviews I pay attention to are the smiles of the users I see out there on them. I'm more than happy to listen to and pay attention to those with constructive criticism. They can sometimes be enlisted to enter the process and help, hopefully they will be the next set of old guys out digging dirt.

The entitled whiners and we have them too, I do not listen to or build for. F*ck em.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

gravitylover said:


> Sorry Dave but some of us work weekends. I'll remember to get a road bike so I don't make a bad impression by riding trails without volunteering to show up for "official" trail work days.
> 
> Nah, actually I'll take what free time I do have during the winter and go do all of the work that didn't get done during the season. I might even make things better but they'll never know who/why/when. Then during the riding season we'll all enjoy the fruits of our labor whether done officially or not.


"I don't have time".....blah blah blah.

Everyone on our crew works 2 jobs. Most of the people I know that build trail as a job sacrifice a significant portion of their ride time for trail work. You make the time, and make showing up part of what being a trail user is. Then when you show up, prepare to be told how you can help.

I think part of the problem IS that the average rider is morphing into a "Storm trooper on a DH bike".

The image portrayed by bike media has a huge impact on what noobs expect out of trail riding. It has to start there.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

DaveVt said:


> I think part of the problem IS that the average rider is morphing into a "Storm trooper on a DH bike".


Unclear what you mean.

Enduro?

World Cup DH?

Rampage?

Crankworx?

Freeride and DH have been the "extreme" face of this sport for years and what people associate with first. Trail biking and enjoying nature is marketable for lite beer and nature bars, but seems to come last in selling bikes...


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

thefriar said:


> Unclear what you mean.
> 
> Enduro?
> 
> ...


It seems like the gravity side of things has gotten really cool lately. I mean, it is really cool how far those limits have moved in the last several years. However it seems like that style of use ..Bike Park.. vs trail riding has brought a client/worker vibe into the picture away from the bike parks themselves. A new generation of rider has been brought up where there has never been a lack of legal places to ride. They feel like they pay their club dues, buy their gear....2700 and up for entry level MTBS according the MTBmag this year.... and want trails...they want exactly the trails they want. They don't want to work ALSO...where the trails? I want to ride them? WTF are we? Where are the signs? Who do I call? (the last 3 are actually real from this year while on the job) Hm.

Used to be a community of people who wanted to have good riding in their towns and did what was needed to keep the trails running good...and that brought them together. Now we are a bunch of "Trail Sanitizers" because we deal with erosion and trail widening as a result of a ton of marketing and use without a significant increase in riders who help maintain the trials they ride alot.

Really we just want things to ride sweet, like they used to. And people who have fallen in love with the blown out version of the trail are pissed because without all those roots, their suspension is barely doing ANYTHING!!!


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Agree but not exactly...

I still blame 29ers, they removed the need for some [emphasis] technical bike handling skills and over inflating skillsets. Also, longer length and wheelbases means cutting corners in tight tech makes an easier line and "my bike doesn't fit so what was I supposed to do?" is a legit question in their mind. I think 29er popularity does correlate closely to dumbing down, if someone had free time it would be interesting to see a graph number of 29er forum views/posts vs. posts of dumbing down the trails.

I'm hearing more "I'm an Enduro" racer, which in their minds means they're a ligit gravity/DH rider (especially with chat that some Enduro courses on EWS are just like WC DH courses, maybe pietermaritzburg but not like Mont Saint Anne or Fort Bill)... but they're not even close to full DH capable (i.e. Blue runs not the Black Tech).

It all comes back to over inflated ego, sense of skill, and entitlement, need to dumb down the trail so their riding reflects perceived skill... and not have to work on trails because that's what their local advocacy group, that they're not a member of, does for them.

I think legit FR & DH riders get that there's a time and place and that trail is a very different discipline (and that if you have FR or DH not at a park there's another level of discipline required to keep said lines open and away from dumber downers).


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

thefriar said:


> Unclear what you mean.
> 
> Enduro?
> 
> ...


Don't agree. Regardless of what Red Bull and Mtn Dew are trying to sell, the not insignificant majority of people who actually ride MTBs do what would be classifies as "XC" or "AM" (although I still don't really understand what "AM" means).

Many people predicted lift assisted DH areas and bike parks were going to take over MTB but that hasn't happened. Those types of experiences certainly have their niche and aren't likely going away, but most people aren't into the whole armor and huck scene.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Missed my point re: "selling bikes"... new bike buyers are having enduro jammed in their face.

Regardless more people are trail biking and enjoying nature, its not what the media and new bike buyers (not newbs) are being influenced by in buying bikes.

Gravity will always have its niche and be a "sell" or marketing point for the advertisers and bike companies but only a handful will run FR or DH bikes and a smaller handful will do that regularly.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

MTB is such a fickle thing. I doubt we will ever be able to make everyone happy as they flit from fad to fad. One week it's race courses that change what riders want, then full sus, 29ers, fat bikes, flow, chunk etc etc. Every year there's a new trend. There's no way to keep up with that. Only virtual reality MTB can do it and that's probably the next fad!

What really gets me is how incapable most riders are of changing the way they ride regardless of their bike or their fad of the week. They want TTF; you give it to them and they ride past. You improve the line of an eroded corner and they ride over the new work because that's where they always rode. Put in sweet corners and unless you corral everything out the wazoo, they just ride straight. 

We are starting to think riders blurt out what they think they should say, like the chick riding the fire road next to a tight and tech singletrack telling us not to make a new trail section too wide or smooth! Perhaps it's what people embarrassed about their lack of on-trail support have to do when they face the uncomfortable situation of meeting the local trail crew for the 20th weekend in a row - they justify their lack of assistance with coreness. I shouldn't just be negative though as we are finding an increasing number of people appreciating trails that encourage their kids and wives and friends into the bush because they can be ridden without excessive suffering.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

thefriar said:


> Missed my point re: "selling bikes"... new bike buyers are having enduro jammed in their face.
> 
> Regardless more people are trail biking and enjoying nature, its not what the media and new bike buyers (not newbs) are being influenced by in buying bikes.
> 
> Gravity will always have its niche and be a "sell" or marketing point for the advertisers and bike companies but only a handful will run FR or DH bikes and a smaller handful will do that regularly.


I agree that gravity is a niche, I've gotta say that a large percentage of the guys that build and ride a lot that I know also like to hit the lifts, at least now and then. And most of the regular DHers I know also ride trail quite a bit too. I'd even venture that overall, somebody that rides DH is going to be more likely to do trail work than the average mtb trail user. Of course, being in the NE, we've got a lot of lift service, so DH is pretty accessible. It's almost a rarity to run into someone that's been riding for a good while and hasn't done some lift runs, kind of a natural progression. Hell, I've done a couple hundred days myself.

Granted, like you said, it's a niche, but it's a solid one with a lot of really dedicated and enthusiastic riders. And DHers (and BMXers) are often pretty good at throwing dirt around if they get into a project.

:thumbsup:


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

thefriar said:


> Agree but not exactly...
> 
> I still blame 29ers, they removed the need for some [emphasis] technical bike handling skills and over inflating skillsets. Also, longer length and wheelbases means cutting corners in tight tech makes an easier line and "my bike doesn't fit so what was I supposed to do?" is a legit question in their mind. I think 29er popularity does correlate closely to dumbing down, if someone had free time it would be interesting to see a graph number of 29er forum views/posts vs. posts of dumbing down the trails.
> 
> ...


Wait, what? I see more guys on 26 inch bikes around here (long travel 26ers, with 3 foot wide handle bars) cutting corners than I do people on 29ers. I blame strava and people with wide handle bars for dumbing down trails. Also tri-atheletes. Recently the only technical feature on a trail that I had to try more the three times to clean was brutally hammered out with a sledge to make it safer for an X-Terra race.

See, you're pointing fingers, and that's an easy game to play, but I ride 29ers and build trail. In fact, it's been said more than once that the trail system I'm working on at the moment is one of the most technical in the area. Several people have told me they went and bought FS bikes (27.5's all) because the trail was "unridable" on their old bikes (hard tails, 26's and 29ers) due to it's technical nature. The majority of them have never taken time to look at my bike - a rigid single speed 29er. On which I can clean everything on the trail, at least half the time.

No, the problem is people's ego, regardless of what they ride, that won't allow them to get off and walk over/around/through a feature they can't ride, and if they can't ride it, it's "dangerous" as though there is no better rider in the world than them.

Oh yeah, this super technical trail I'm building? Sustainable, largely, but not entirely machine built. And people seem to...like it.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Cotharyus said:


> Wait, what? I see more guys on 26 inch bikes around here (long travel 26ers, with 3 foot wide handle bars) cutting corners than I do people on 29ers. I blame strava and people with wide handle bars for dumbing down trails. Also tri-atheletes. Recently the only technical feature on a trail that I had to try more the three times to clean was brutally hammered out with a sledge to make it safer for an X-Terra race.
> 
> See, you're pointing fingers, and that's an easy game to play, but I ride 29ers and build trail. In fact, it's been said more than once that the trail system I'm working on at the moment is one of the most technical in the area. Several people have told me they went and bought FS bikes (27.5's all) because the trail was "unridable" on their old bikes (hard tails, 26's and 29ers) due to it's technical nature. The majority of them have never taken time to look at my bike - a rigid single speed 29er. On which I can clean everything on the trail, at least half the time.
> 
> ...


When you point fingers at people with wide bars on 26ers, you are pointing your finger at me as well as at TF. You are in the glasshouse now. I didn't make a super wide handlebar to go rad on the trail. I bought a bar that is available to anyone - 800mm. I like the way it helps me ride. I don't think it's a threat to world peace on MTB singletrack. It doesn't make me cut corners, but it does help identify poor trail location, marginal building and the selfish desire to make trail only suited to some riders.

Tech or beginner trail, you should be able to ride a trail with any available equipment, whether that be wide bars or a barge-length wagon wheeler or on a singlespeed like you and my riding and building buddy. The blame rests with us builders if we can't get it right on new trail. Even working within strict guidelines, good trail is possible. Fixing up bad old trail is much harder and frustrating.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ridnparadise said:


> Tech or beginner trail, you should be able to ride a trail with any available equipment,


By 'you', who do you mean though?

Should every trail be built so any rider will be able to clean it on any bike? Sure, very skilled riders will be able to make just about anything work in a pinch, for the most part. But some trails are just going to generally play better to different styles and equipment. If you choose to ride a bike or equipment that doesn't work all that well on certain trails or particular sections of trail, it's not the trail that's the issue. Your skills are what need to change, and if you can't overcome equipment challenges that way, then it's time to change equipment, not the part of the trail that's giving you trouble (unless of course it's blatantly built like ****). I know plenty of spots that I can only clean once in awhile, some that I only clear once in a great while, and some that I've never quite been able to nail ever and I've watched truly skilled guys on all sorts of bikes ride those spots like they were rolling down a sidewalk. Just tells me there's still lots to learn, and I have a long way to go.

Many trails have become just too damn predictable these days.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Sarcasm.

<---- Also rides SS HT 29er, but pretends its a 6'' all mountain bike.

It is ego at the end of the day. 

With newer riders plus this modern instant gratification mindset (I want everything, and I want it now!) and marketing, newer riders (2-4 year kinda of riders) think they should be able to pull a Finn Iles style whip off of a bump and ride tech like Jeff Lenosky, when in reality they need to put in real, painful, work to get there. 

Crash, recover, repeat until success, then try three more times to lock it in. But unrealistic expectations and ego of being unsuccessful and delusion that they're a better rider than they are means that its really too hard for everyone, so let me just "adjust" it for my own reality.

Our crew is doing a reroute this weekend of a seasonally wet area, the trail is now armored through the seasonally wet area, but people braid the heck out of it. Someone will be unhappy that our fast and flowy reroute will remove some tech (trail into and out of current are is fast flowy so can argue the armor didn't fit in first place). We have to think about how to repurpose the old armor so there's a challenge, but be cognisant that the folks that made 25e10 paths avoiding the wet and armor previously will avoid the armor/rock if our crew isn't thoughtful... so our reroute will be easier than the original but have a cool option or two to keep the tech riders happy.

There's always going to be someone faster, stronger, better on a bike/at trail building, and better looking than you... accepting that is tough for some people and the marketing mtb companies throw out about rugged capable individuals makes it harder for some to get there.


Its the same argument with ebikes... "well I'm getting old/fat/was injured/lazy, so now I can do what I used to!" somethings aren't for everyone. There's a reason people over a certain size and under certain heights aren't allowed on roller coasters... it would be messy and people don't like to admit reality... ces't la vie.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

From today's Pinkbike.com review of the new Bell half shell/full face combo helmet:

"There's never been a better time to be a mountain biker. Thanks to advances in frame and suspension technology, trails that were once ruled by heavy DH rigs are now doable on the latest batch of all-mountain bikes, allowing riders to push their limits on both the climbs and the descents. In response to the growing number of riders who are venturing into more and more technical terrain, or testing the waters of the enduro race scene, Bell created the Super 2R, a full-face helmet with a chin bar that can be removed for the climbs."

So:
-I have a new all mountain bike
-I should be able to ride things that used to be limited to DH rigs
-I can ride more and more technical terrain than before
-I am trying to race

Conclusion: My bike and I should be able to ride whatever we encounter in the woods.

Trail Side View: If my bike and I can't hit that, then only people on heavy DH rigs can, and this is a crazy technical trail. If I can't ride it then I should make it ridable so everyone else not on a heavy DH rig can, and since I haven't seen any heavy DH rigs on the trail here, no one else can probably ride it. So I will fix it and be helpful.

*hmmm... do we as advocates need to do more to tell people that they won't be able to ride everything on their wunda-bikes? How do we do it gently?*


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Cotharyus said:


> ... Recently the only technical feature on a trail that I had to try more the three times to clean was brutally hammered out with a sledge to make it safer for an X-Terra race.


That exact thing happened here a few months ago! The section they sledged wasn't even all that gnarly. It really pizz'd a lot of people off. I assume the problem wasn't that the riders couldn't clear it, it's that they couldn't clear it at 10mph and the pack would get stacked up pretty quick. SMH :bluefrown:


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

I am not talking about wanting easier trail to suit lack of skills. I'm talking about not having to stop completely on fast downhill sections, pulling up anyone behind me because the gap through still growing trees is less than 700mm wide. I'm talking about failure to remove baby saplings that cannot be avoided, that throw riders off their line and into larger trees and will eventually be snapped off by other riders. I'm talking about putting inadequate trail outside the line of immature trees right on the edge of a cliff. I am talking about laziness, stupidity and frankly, a selfish approach to suit only the person building the trail and their own personal likes, their own equipment and without any forethought. Calling it old-school is no excuse for poor work.

The trail belongs to all riders whether they have skills or not, whether you feel that rider should be there or not. I'll take a guess that Jared Graves, Jerome Clementz and pretty much any ace rider on any bike less than 4 years old is riding wide bars. Try telling them they need to brush up on their skills!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ridnparadise said:


> I'm talking about failure to remove baby saplings that cannot be avoided, that throw riders off their line and into larger trees and will eventually be snapped off by other riders. I'm talking about putting inadequate trail outside the line of immature trees right on the edge of a cliff. I am talking about laziness, stupidity and frankly, a selfish approach to suit only the person building the trail and their own personal likes, their own equipment and without any forethought. Calling it old-school is no excuse for poor work.
> 
> The trail belongs to all riders whether they have skills or not, whether you feel that rider should be there or not. I'll take a guess that Jared Graves, Jerome Clementz and pretty much any ace rider on any bike less than 4 years old is riding wide bars. Try telling them they need to brush up on their skills!


There's a difference between shitty building and tech trail. Sounds like your talking about new trail that was crappily built, or unfinished. But not every case of tight trees and rough boneyards is due to bad building. Sometimes, trails go through tight spots between trees. I don't care who you are, but if you can't get through a tight squeeze or turn here and there because you're decided to run 35" wheels and a 900mm bar, too damn bad. Sometimes, the trail just goes where it goes. Either figure it out, or go ride fire roads.

If I want to ride my road bike your rocky trail, are you going to smooth it out for me? No. And if you want to ride big wide bars on a trail with some tight squeezes here and there, well, learn to deal with it.

Sure the trail belongs to everybody. That doesn't mean it comes with some implicit guarantee that everyone will be able to clean 100% of it every time out. Some people just have too much of the aforementioned ego and sense of entitlement to get off their bikes, or slow down, or god forbid to look clumsy and unskilled as they try and fail to negotiate a challenging section. I like to throw in those type of sections here and there. Keeps those kind of people riding elsewhere. Not every trail suits the style, skills and equipment of every rider. Nor should they. If any of those guys you mention can't figure out how to get between a couple tight trees, then they are welcome to get off their bikes for a moment, walk through, and get back on, just like I have to do sometimes. Then, my buddy that has taken the time and has the skill to get the spot dialed will crank through in a manual with an amazingly precise wiggle of his bars and lofted wheel, like something you see in that 'Hole in the Wall' game show, and show how it's done.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> There's a difference between shitty building and tech trail. Sounds like your talking about new trail that was crappily built, or unfinished. But not every case of tight trees and rough boneyards is due to bad building. Sometimes, trails go through tight spots between trees. I don't care who you are, but if you can't get through a tight squeeze or turn here and there because you're decided to run 35" wheels and a 900mm bar, too damn bad. Sometimes, the trail just goes where it goes. Either figure it out, or go ride fire roads.
> 
> If I want to ride my road bike your rocky trail, are you going to smooth it out for me? No. And if you want to ride big wide bars on a trail with some tight squeezes here and there, well, learn to deal with it.
> 
> Sure the trail belongs to everybody. That doesn't mean it comes with some implicit guarantee that everyone will be able to clean 100% of it every time out. Some people just have too much of the aforementioned ego and sense of entitlement to get off their bikes, or slow down, or god forbid to look clumsy and unskilled as they try and fail to negotiate a challenging section. I like to throw in those type of sections here and there. Keeps those kind of people riding elsewhere. Not every trail suits the style, skills and equipment of every rider. Nor should they. If any of those guys you mention can't figure out how to get between a couple tight trees, then they are welcome to get off their bikes for a moment, walk through, and get back on, just like I have to do sometimes. Then, my buddy that has taken the time and has the skill to get the spot dialed will crank through in a manual with an amazingly precise wiggle of his bars and lofted wheel, like something you see in that 'Hole in the Wall' game show, and show how it's done.


Got to give it to you; you really are a confident person. Based on this and other threads, you continue to exemplify my last post. Do I want a car which stalls unexpectedly - no. Do I want a computer that freezes unexpectedly - no. Do I want to ride an established trail that stops to become a walk because it is impassible - no fu(k!ng way!

One person being able to thread the needle while manualing through trees narrower than their bars or turned wheel on a 30kph downhill trail might make a good Youtube experience, but I am really sorry to have to inform you that it is not normal, practical, sensible, free of litigation, acceptable to most land managers, logical or even going to happen, ever, on any trail system. There's no point trying to use indignance and arrogant confidence trying to justify what makes no sense slaphead. When you dish it to me, I think of when I started riding dirt and bush and grass and gravel and rock and hill and jumps nearly 50 years ago. We had really tight trail then as little kids, but we made it just wide enough to cut loose in a tiny little MTBer way. Made sense then. Makes sense now.

Making trail your way is really great, if only you matter. Sorry for the serve guy, but I think you need to broaden your trailwork experience and mind.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Ridnparadise said:


> When you point fingers at people with wide bars on 26ers, you are pointing your finger at me as well as at TF. You are in the glasshouse now. I didn't make a super wide handlebar to go rad on the trail. I bought a bar that is available to anyone - 800mm. I like the way it helps me ride. I don't think it's a threat to world peace on MTB singletrack. It doesn't make me cut corners, but it does help identify poor trail location, marginal building and the selfish desire to make trail only suited to some riders.
> 
> Tech or beginner trail, you should be able to ride a trail with any available equipment, whether that be wide bars or a barge-length wagon wheeler or on a singlespeed like you and my riding and building buddy. The blame rests with us builders if we can't get it right on new trail. Even working within strict guidelines, good trail is possible. Fixing up bad old trail is much harder and frustrating.


You have inadvertently proved my point, which was not pointing fingers. I see I didn't go off the mark with the wide handlebar 26" thing either - that's usually the case when someone takes a shot at 29ers, joking or not. No, the Friar and I are in perfect agreement. It's about ego. That't the problem. It's right there in my original post.

The thing is, we build easy trail, and people go ok, I can ride that, then we build intermediate trail, and put a couple rocks here and there, and people figure out how to ride around those rocks, and they figure they're ready for the advanced trail, and they get there, and there's a rock garden that there's simply no way to ride around, and they say, why didn't you build a way to ride around the rock garden? (this actually happened to me!) My reply, because I know the guy, I've ridden with him, was why didn't you figure out how to ride over the rocks on the intermediate trail, instead of around them? Skill development. Patience. Ego? No time for that. My son sees me do things, and he wants to be as good at them as I am. I had to stop him one time and say take me inside and show me your favorite video game. Then I attempted to play it. He told me I was terrible. I said yes, I've never played it. When you ride a trail, you don't have as much practice as I do. So don't get frustrated if you have to get off and walk something I can ride over. You need more practice.

It applies to everyone who rides. Your 800mm bars will fit between every try on my trails. You may have to slow down for some of them, but they'll fit. I don't build trails that are exclusive to equipment, I build trails that are exclusive to skills.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Cotharyus said:


> You have inadvertently proved my point, which was not pointing fingers. I see I didn't go off the mark with the wide handlebar 26" thing either - that's usually the case when someone takes a shot at 29ers, joking or not. No, the Friar and I are in perfect agreement. It's about ego. That't the problem. It's right there in my original post.
> 
> The thing is, we build easy trail, and people go ok, I can ride that, then we build intermediate trail, and put a couple rocks here and there, and people figure out how to ride around those rocks, and they figure they're ready for the advanced trail, and they get there, and there's a rock garden that there's simply no way to ride around, and they say, why didn't you build a way to ride around the rock garden? (this actually happened to me!) My reply, because I know the guy, I've ridden with him, was why didn't you figure out how to ride over the rocks on the intermediate trail, instead of around them? Skill development. Patience. Ego? No time for that. My son sees me do things, and he wants to be as good at them as I am. I had to stop him one time and say take me inside and show me your favorite video game. Then I attempted to play it. He told me I was terrible. I said yes, I've never played it. When you ride a trail, you don't have as much practice as I do. So don't get frustrated if you have to get off and walk something I can ride over. You need more practice.
> 
> It applies to everyone who rides. Your 800mm bars will fit between every try on my trails. You may have to slow down for some of them, but they'll fit. I don't build trails that are exclusive to equipment, I build trails that are exclusive to skills.


Yes it does apply to every rider. See, I really want to ride your trails now. Everything you said makes sense. IMBA may call it stacked loops, but whatever; it's a progressive trail system, like on snow in ski resorts. Pick your zone based on your skill. Black trail = black trail with or without optional double black TTF. Logical.

I don't recall taking a shot at 29ers, but I can give you an irreverent story. Last weekend a mate and I drove to Toowoomba (Qld) to get an old car part for him and to ride the Jubilee Park trails. It was fun. On the way home we were listening to music and talking about Rage Against The Machine. A billboard said something like the just will be preserved. Read the Bible.

I thought about that after getting home and text mate to say I think God was referring to Rage Against The Machine - "Those who ride are justified". His reply: "Justified are those that ride 26. Condemned are those that ride 29. Ash 34:18 (his singlespeed gear ratio).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ridnparadise said:


> on a 30kph downhill trail might make .....
> 
> Making trail your way is really great, if only you matter. Sorry for the serve guy, but I think you need to broaden your trailwork experience and mind.


Errr....I don't recall saying anything about building this way on high speed DH trails. Don't know where you get this, but you're totally off base. Spots like this are not at all out of place on low speed, twisty techish trails where keeping rider speeds down to avoid conflicts with other users and making damn sure no one on an ATV or moto (or Strava for that matter) will even consider them. I don't want anyone doing 30 down a trail I built where the local schools take young kids for nature walks and senior hiking groups are likely to be meandering along taking in the view of the river or lakes unless they've got major skills. It's not all about speed all the time.

I've also built highspeed lift-served DH, progressive jump/flow type trails, pump tracks, and kid/beginner friendly trails. Different trails for different target audiences are built differently. They all work well for their intended uses and are enjoyed by many riders of different styles and ability levels. Variety is the spice of life, and MTBing. IMaybe I'm not the one that needs to broaden my trailwork experience?


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Errr....I don't recall saying anything about building this way on high speed DH trails. Don't know where you get this, but you're totally off base. Spots like this are not at all out of place on low speed, twisty techish trails where keeping rider speeds down to avoid conflicts with other users and making damn sure no one on an ATV or moto (or Strava for that matter) will even consider them. I don't want anyone doing 30 down a trail I built where the local schools take young kids for nature walks and senior hiking groups are likely to be meandering along taking in the view of the river or lakes unless they've got major skills. It's not all about speed all the time.
> 
> I've also built highspeed lift-served DH, progressive jump/flow type trails, pump tracks, and kid/beginner friendly trails. Different trails for different target audiences are built differently. They all work well for their intended uses and are enjoyed by many riders of different styles and ability levels. Variety is the spice of life, and MTBing. IMaybe I'm not the one that needs to broaden my trailwork experience?


Oh man, you win. 







I'm hitting the sack


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

It all boils down in the end to that ego thing...if I hit a tree while riding, I don't blame the trailbuilder. If I can't fly up every climb on a 50lb DH bike, or a BMX bike, I don't blame the trailbuilder. If the rocks are too big and tough for me to ride at mach chicken speed on a CX bike, I don't blame the trailbuilder. If I bring a knife to a gunfight, that's on me. If I have to walk here and there, it's because I need to learn to ride better.

Sometimes trails are built badly. Much more often though, riders need to check their egos and realize that just because they can't ride it at whatever speed they think they have a God-given right to maintain at all times, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. Think about it - how often do you put a lot of effort into building something you personally can't ride well but better riders than you can? I do it often. Cuz I'm selfish, of course.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Out of frustration I passed this thread on to a very skilled rider and really skilled builder. Here's his response. I think it rings true.

*"That thread is funny, I wonder if some of them get together and have meetings about the dumbest possible opinions on topics.

Earlier tonight I was looking through my portable hard drive and found a video of Exit, Happy, Pete's, DH and Casuarina from 2011.

Old style trail is neglect, plain and simple.
People can't be genuine in their beliefs that gaps narrower than bars on fast trail sections is appropriate.
Next thing you know we will hear "We designed that erosion to be two feet deep"

After watching that old video knowing how our trails are today, i have come to the conclusion that old trail is all work and no play.
Mindlessly grinding through kms of awkward trail without the reward of stitching together sections of flow has no place in modern MTB.

I am going to take a guess and say that the guy who likes tight trees has a set of scales, a dresser full of spandex and a heart rate monitor.
Is he going to cut his bars down each year as the tree grows? I'll bet when he runs out of bar to cut down he is going to wax his legs and lube himself up with a gel pack so he can squeeze through the gap. (All while discarding the gel wrapper)"*

Luckily, over a few short years all of those trails have been extensively renovated, re-routed, or in the case of DH, closed and rehabilitated with a new trail twice as long to replace it. Result - massively increased use and pleasure. Making new trail is not rocket science and ego has no place in it. Build it to manage the terrain and the riders will choose the best line or lines. No builder can get it right based on some specific preference. When it comes to justifying stuff that no-one should have to ride, well that's just stupid. I'm not the only person that thinks so - thank goodness, but we are not a majority, apparently.


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## ZigaK (Sep 9, 2009)

Ever heard of straw man argument?


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

Ridnparadise said:


> Out of frustration I passed this thread on to a very skilled rider and really skilled builder. Here's his response. I think it rings true.
> 
> *"That thread is funny, I wonder if some of them get together and have meetings about the dumbest possible opinions on topics.
> 
> ...


That's just total dope brah. This bro must be totally core. Total ditto, especially the part about a dresser full of spandex, heart rate monitors and leg wax. This dude knows what mountain biking is all about. :lol:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ridnparadise said:


> ..... comedy gold....


Dude, that's pretty ****ed up right there.




You got a crush on me dontcha? 
C'mon, admit it...


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Dude, that's pretty ****ed up right there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could be starting to fall under your spell I guess. Love is thicker than dirt among us diggers.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ridnparadise said:


> Could be starting to fall under your spell I guess. Love is thicker than dirt among us diggers.




Would it ruin the moment to mention I left a bunch of trees in our pumptrack too? Keeps the kids on their toes.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Would it ruin the moment to mention I left a bunch of trees in our pumptrack too? Keeps the kids on their toes.


Sounds like glade skiing and I've seen pics of it in trails areas in the UK and Gorge Road NZ I think. I like the idea. If you don't lose, or can afford to lose potential lines because of the trees, drainage etc, why not. Not that it often applies to a pump track, there's nothing cooler than being able to use trees as part of a line. It's pretty cool cornering by leaning over a tilted tree or the opposite - leaning away from the tree as it leans over you. Pump tracks should be fun, not that I ride them well.

We love our trees here. These 2 attracted us. The final product will include drains either side, become more than double the width to divert water into the drains, be more than double the length on the inslope and replicate on the outslope to create a bell-shaped feature. It will also be more than double the height. Joe average gets to have fun riding through and the bold get to launch from one side to the other; pretty high too. Unless the trees grow more than I think they will they'll be whipping this for many years (in a National Park). And I can ride through with wide bars





















Sorry about the quality of the pics. It's wasn't snowing, but pi$$ing it down with fat rain under storm clouds near dusk. Good weather for adding diggin's from down the trail to the feature. There's a lot more of that to come


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> Oh, we get it alright. As you know though, the thing is, our terrain doesn't lend itself to that type of trail in general. So, when some riders ask 'hey, how come you guys don't make some smooth, flowy trails like I rode when I went (insert destination here), they don't realize that to replicate something like that in NE, you're talking major construction - tons of machine work, importing materials not just for building, but also on an ongoing basis for maintenance, and also way, way more requirements for ongoing maintenance. Most of the guys that build trail around here I don't think want to get stuck spending the majority of their time keeping up with trails that they likely find monotonous and boring (I'm generalizing of course). Basically for beginners looking for easy terrain so they can feel fast, the answer usually is to go hit up the dirt roads.
> 
> It seems that once the riders who are looking for smooth and easy terrain find out what's involved in actually making that happen, they very rarely go beyond just talking about it. I think around here, the trailbuilder personality tends to not usually be the sort who's looking for easy trails, and the folks looking for easy trails don't tend to be the sort that are willing to go through the ridiculous amount of effort it would take to alter the terrain enough to get what they're looking for (hell, if they were, they'd probably just decide their time is better spent learning how to ride the terrain we already have boatloads of).
> 
> As with everything, it's all about the local situation.


In my experience in Vermont, weather you are hand benching or machine benching, once you cut into the slope you have A LOT of dirt and not much else. You end up with a smooth bench. The trend for legal building around here (North and Central Vt) has been a lot of new construction for the last 5 years all resulting is mostly easy trail.

For the growth of the tourist industry it has been good, however, this type of construction leaves a trail that lacks the character that defines New England Single track. The local builders have mechanized to try and make their business profitable. People are put off by the "packaged" flow, whereas, you used to have to develop skill to flow, now the trail delivers it.

As a builder and rider, I want to build challenging trail, but have come to the conclusion that you have to provide easy options on all trail if you want to keep impact limited. There are all kinds of things we "see" and want to build but financials of the business mean we have to move on and focus on the basic build.

It takes time to build a well thought out and functional technical option or optional line that is technical and sustainable. Time is money. People complain that we are making their trail too easy and yet they think that 6 or 7 dollars a foot is an outrageous price tag for trail. The ways they could help the dollars go farther and allow the pro crew to build out some more interesting trail is to show up and volunteer with the grunt work or give a bunch more money to the building effort.

I don't disagree with the complainers that a lot has changed around here and a lot of the primitive, illegally built stuff was awesome, some of the best stuff to ride, and is now gone forever. I also agree with them that an expert trail is not a flow trail that makes everyone feel like an expert by delivering the speeds and jumps to people who haven't developed those skills. The way for things to change is for everyone who rides to also be involved more. Everyone rides, rides, rides, rides. Not dig. There's your problem.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Assuming we/you/they/whoever are skilled builders not dragging a rake & brake down a hill:

Legit Builders - Too few of us to do what needs to be done to keep everyone happy. We focus on keeping the land manager happy, resource cared for, and trails accessible. Will always have complainers (too hard/too easy)

Rogue/Illegal Builders - Build what we want. Complain when LM kills trail or someone adjusts trail to their liking. Can build super tech/challenge whatever whenever where ever.

Contributing Volunteer - Comes to 6+ trail build sessions a year, gets that legit builders have constraints, kinda gets Legit Builder gripeing.

Once-a-year-er - Wow, building is tough. Thanks for doing all this, depending on beer/food after event, can turn into contributing volunteer.

Saddle Loving on Bike Pro Builders (Slob-Bs) - Rider of any skill level, who because they once read an article and or rode a mountain bike in the woods is able to assess, critique, and criticize any of above's work. Probably even rode your work in process (dirt being tossed on) berm uphill before when you asked them to go around (on a trail that wasn't even open yet). Definitely heros of the building community. First to complain or gripe about anything. Maybe thought about going to trail work once, but getting out to ride is far more important than turning dirt.

Not sure if above or below in the order of authority on trail building, but the:
Trail sanitizer - May or May not be from Contributing/Once-a-year volunteer, silently think that everything should be ramped. Happy to get off their bike and ramp everything or remove pesky rocks in rock gardens. Don't complain because they take matters into their own hands, may have even been to trail school once.

What am I missing guys and gals?


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

I posted this video in its own thread but since it does a good job summarizing the design, approval and build process of a new trail I thought it might be of interest to folks on this discussion.

In this context, it begs the question, "Who be the first to complain that Little Scraggy sucks?" I'm sure it's already happening ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNmAyyOI0P8#t=32


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

thefriar said:


> Assuming we/you/they/whoever are skilled builders not dragging a rake & brake down a hill:
> 
> Legit Builders - Too few of us to do what needs to be done to keep everyone happy. We focus on keeping the land manager happy, resource cared for, and trails accessible. Will always have complainers (too hard/too easy)
> 
> ...


Combo/schizo builders - I go back and forth between all of these in varying degrees at different times or with different trails/places (and know others that do also), though rather than building illegally, I stick to doing the more...errrr..."unique" projects on private property.

And some of my favorite trails I've ever ridden have been little more than rake'n'brakes. If they're on private property, nothing at all wrong with them if the raw vibe is what you're going for.

:thumbsup:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I/we have been revising some tight tree spots because I don't want the liability exposure. I could care less about your favorite hazard spot if it would be hard to defend on the witness stand in a liability suit. That is the real bottom line in this matter.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

thefriar said:


> Assuming we/you/they/whoever are skilled builders not dragging a rake & brake down a hill:
> 
> Legit Builders - *Been there*
> 
> ...


"The Artist" Think "Digger" from Vancouver's North Shore
"The disillusioned grumpy old curmudgeon" That would be me. I still build but only on my own property for my own use.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

*And now for one way trail....*

Sorry, I couldn't think of a better thread to post this in

MTB two way trails - YouTube


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## Sofakinold (Dec 17, 2005)

Well People, I have enjoyed going thru this Thread. Even with (or maybe because of) this piss and moaning. Nothing I haven't hear before.

Mostly because it represents the better part of the last 25 years of my life. Especially since I have gone thru all the phases of building from rake and ride, to artistic snob, to grumpy old curmudgeon, and settled into the oblivious public servant. Nothing I love more than carving a clay bank into a perfectly sculpted berm. Slinging dirt and cutting bench has become second nature. Just a part of who I am. 

Loved having my own private trails on private land. Made gates thru trees 24" wide to wiggle my 28" bars thru just because I could. Hitting those at speed is a true skill that gives me real satisfaction every time I clean 'em. (PM me if you want the secret) But, I have learned that putting them in technical climbs (and yes they do exist) is probably a better idea and much easier on knuckles and shoulders.

Having had trails closed because of bad mouthing critics, I have no use for negativity toward any trail and will hit back when it gets close to home.

On the subject of "Dumbing down" the old trails to put in new more sustainable ones;
I'd like to reference the Forest Hills Park trails section of the James River Trail System in Richmond Va. The "old trails" were serious aerobic "climb and dive" type trails and were replaced by much faster, flowier new trails. As much as I loved the old stuff I have to admit that the new are much more fun and add greatly to the whole. Instead of whipping the crap out of you the new trails make it possible to enjoy the 15 miles around the whole River trails loop.

Anyway, I must reiterate the fact that the trail builder is the only one with the right to decide how a trail goes together and should be responsible enough to produce a product that meets the needs of it's intended patrons. And be willing to put egos aside to modify to meet those needs while standing on his laurels and demand the level of technical skills the trails was built to require.

The greatest compliment to the skill of a builder comes when he can put the highest level of technical challenge into a trail for the least capable rider and make it fun for everyone.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Sofakinold said:


> Well People, I have enjoyed going thru this Thread. Even with (or maybe because of) this piss and moaning. Nothing I haven't hear before.
> 
> Mostly because it represents the better part of the last 25 years of my life. Especially since I have gone thru all the phases of building from rake and ride, to artistic snob, to grumpy old curmudgeon, and settled into the oblivious public servant. Nothing I love more than carving a clay bank into a perfectly sculpted berm. Slinging dirt and cutting bench has become second nature. Just a part of who I am.
> 
> ...


Well said. I like the concept that it isn't about me but it is the best I can do for everyone who will ride it.


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## Sofakinold (Dec 17, 2005)

Ridnparadise said:


> Well said. I like the concept that it isn't about me but it is the best I can do for everyone who will ride it.


Exactly. Wish I could have gotten that across at Tar River.


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## ABud (Feb 12, 2012)

Trails are like a box of chocolates. They vary greatly by what the land gives you. Where I build in the Lehigh Valley we have areas of endless baby heads, tombstones, bricks, boulders, and logs as well as my privilege which is exclusively rolling hills of soft well drained shale, moldable modeling clay. I take great joy machine building with a New Holland C175 and hand building with pick and pro hoe. Yes dare I describe this as flow. We in the Lehigh Valley have very tech as well as flow, the area I work is probably "unfortunately" visited by more riders then most other spots in the area. Flow is a provocative word to those old hardcores, they are the cranky old curmudgeons not you skilled and experienced craftsmen of dirt. Most of us have been building for quite some time, we have progressed in our skill and produce some awesome work however we have left some behind. 

Flow v. Tech: Do you perfer skiing the east coast ice sheets or do you crave boarding 4' of fresh pow pow in Utah? and some of you need a second hobby in the off season other then lighting up this board (snarkasm) 

Walt don't give into those whining idiots, you know your true customers love your work.


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## ntm1973 (Jan 7, 2013)

I know I am a little late to this discussion and would never criticize someone else's trail building. That said.....

Walt Disney and anyone else putting in serious trail building hours,

You guys and gals are a real credit to the mountain biking community and I can understand your frustration. However, allow me to offer one comment that may be relevant.

Don't give up on some of the guys you don't see to often on your organized trail rides. Maybe he has a demanding job and can't get out much, maybe he has sick parents he is caring for or kids and a family that keep him busy. Perhaps he came to a few trail maintenance days but life got in the way so he is relegated to an unscheduled impromptu ride for a few hours here and there. That impromptu ride doesn't stop him from throwing a chainsaw or axe on his back and clearing downed trees several times a year or armoring a section of trail with local stones from time to time. I know the effort is small compared to what real trail builders do but sometimes people only have so much to give. 
I'm one of those anonymous guys that look forward to having more time to actually participate in building, but for now; I do what I can.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ABud said:


> Flow v. Tech: Do you perfer skiing the east coast ice sheets or do you crave boarding 4' of fresh pow pow in Utah?
> .


I see it more like on the groomers vs in the trees.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

ntm1973 said:


> Walt Disney and anyone else putting in serious trail building hours....


Walt Disney is a tool. All his trails are over priced, over-built, Mickey Mouse crap, with long lines, and a lot of Goofy features thrown in. And, he uses Dwarves of all things for cheap slave labor. The groms just love his stuff I guess, but I much prefer non-commercialized trails built by free-range trail gnomes. Call me a snob if you will...

Oh wait, you meant Walt DIZZY.

On a serious note, your reminder on not writing off the "sometimes" volunteers is a good one. Every builder started off somewhere. I spent a lot of years doing just as you do, clearing downed trees etc... while out riding, volunteering here and there where I could. But there weren't any good opportunities to volunteer to build mountain bike trails in our area, and the bulk of the land manager organized work parties did work that involved burying every trail feature under a foot of gravel. No thanks.

The advocacy side is not my cup of tea, so thankfully, others who have that knack were able to make in-roads with several land managers, and now opportunities to build legitimate MTB trails in our area are only limited by the number of volunteers who show up.

The other thing to realize is that picking up a shovel is not everyone's cup of tea either, but that doesn't mean you cant or shouldn't get involved. Donating money to the local trail builders is good to. Helping out with fundraising efforts, designing posters for trail work days, running the grill at a trail work day, etc.... Lot's and lots of ways to get involved, and the builders doing all the shovel work are usually the same folks doing all that other stuff too, so lightening their load helps a ton.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

ntm1973 said:


> Don't give up on some of the guys you don't see to often on your organized trail rides. Maybe he has a demanding job and can't get out much, maybe he has sick parents he is caring for or kids and a family that keep him busy. Perhaps he came to a few trail maintenance days but life got in the way so he is relegated to an unscheduled impromptu ride for a few hours here and there. That impromptu ride doesn't stop him from throwing a chainsaw or axe on his back and clearing downed trees several times a year or armoring a section of trail with local stones from time to time. I know the effort is small compared to what real trail builders do but sometimes people only have so much to give.
> I'm one of those anonymous guys that look forward to having more time to actually participate in building, but for now; I do what I can.


These efforts don't go unappreciated. I have two guys that are in situations like you describe - where present circumstances dictate that they rarely have time to even get out and ride. I would wager that most of us have one or two of these guys. What makes them Legit is that we know who they are because they either A) were regulars before circumstances became what they are or B) contact us and let us know who they are, why they couldn't make a work day, and offer to help when they have a chance.

Frequently, my guys will contact me and tell me they have some time, and are going to ride a certain place, and ask if there's anything there that can be done - a quick drainage fix, clearing, trimming, weed eating, whatever - and because I know who they are, I know what their limits are, so I can ask them to do something they are comfortable with, not something that they don't know how to do, or don't understand.

Trust me, because they get to ride once every month or two, and are willing to take time out of that one opportunity to help - they are every bit as appreciated as the guys who show up every time I say there's something going on.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Riders who know how to build trails are few. Those who can dedicate days of their time are few. So:

(good builders) X (riders with extra time) = not too dammed many.

As we form our effort our ability to parcel out tasks in ways to accommodate available manpower becomes a much needed skill. With that comes a broader view of how the community supports our work and keeps us all sane.

It has taken a while to get some of our leaders to embrace the idea that a rider passing a work crew can stop for 15-30 minutes and move dirt and that it be cool. That moves a yard of dirt, makes a 3rd hand on a large deadfall, builds a relationship.

That said, while some just see the trail in their minds eye and roll up their sleeves, some need to have a ramp-up. They need an entrance crafted to facilitate the trail work opportunity and, most importantly, buy-in.

Not everyone shows up to church on time or put much in the basket when it comes around. You just have to keep the door open.


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## Maday (Aug 21, 2008)

ntm1973 said:


> Don't give up on some of the guys you don't see to often on your organized trail rides. Maybe he has a demanding job and can't get out much, maybe he has sick parents he is caring for or kids and a family that keep him busy. Perhaps he came to a few trail maintenance days but life got in the way so he is relegated to an unscheduled impromptu ride for a few hours here and there. That impromptu ride doesn't stop him from throwing a chainsaw or axe on his back and clearing downed trees several times a year or armoring a section of trail with local stones from time to time. I know the effort is small compared to what real trail builders do but sometimes people only have so much to give.
> I'm one of those anonymous guys that look forward to having more time to actually participate in building, but for now; I do what I can.


This ^^^ sounds like the story of every trail builder. Most of us have demanding jobs, sick parents, and other life events. Life is about choices and opportunity costs. Either trail work is important to you and you choose to show up, or it is further down the priority list and you show up when you can. In any event thanks for any help you can give. Just remember the work day organizers have just as much going on in their lives as you do.


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## Sofakinold (Dec 17, 2005)

I hear ya. Trail work is not for everyone. As a seasoned builder I don't want just anyone out there trying to do what they think best. I generally just have to go back and fix it. I've said it before, The only one who should be changing a trail is the authorized builder. If you don't like something or have an idea, put it to the guy who has already invested 100's of hours in the project. Anything done without a heads up is a slap in the face. Chances are he has been thinking about the same issue you see and your idea may be a help. I certainly believe offers of hands on help, presented properly, will be taken seriously 

As far as people just putting in a little bit. That's great! Every little bit helps. So, if people are working when you ride by. And if you can offer some time. I'll never turn it down. I may never see the guy again, but thanks for the help. 

We understand life constraints. But, just to put things into perspective; I started building trails when I had 4 kids, a mortgage and 2 jobs. Would take the kids out with me regularly on the trail. Really got busy when I went back to school full time and worked full time on weekends. A lot of work was done at night with lights, ride out to the trail end and add 1/4 mile after work/school. Hacking and whacking is a whole lot better stress relief than whiskey and coke.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Another conundrum - advertising and accepting mass assistance. 

If you don't have enough experienced builders supervising (= not building faster and better themselves) to prevent the distance lust of the inexperienced overwhelming the plan for sustainable trail design, things go bad. Same if the supervisors lack understanding of trail management or construction and fail to solve problems. It's happened here in the past. Often enough that we won't risk it now. I know because I was part of the problem. Going back to sort out the mess can make all the enthusiasm and input worse than a waste of time. 

The best example was when an IMBA rep came to conduct a trail building education day. While we were away with the national park senior ranger inspecting the next part of the project, the rabid group ignored all basic trail building techniques and produced a long, falline drain under IMBA supervision! 

Although the IMBA rep was offering assistance to all volunteers on the job after earlier conducting a 2 hour power point presentation on trail building, control was lost. In the crew were a number of local riders who had experience with previous trailcare. That made no difference. Had that section of trail been left unchanged, a critical and fast section of trail would have failed and become dangerous. It took us another 30 hours to fix what resulted. 

Individuals who stop to help are always welcome. I guess the offer is appreciated because for every 100 poachers, only one person comes to help, but also on the spot volees don't make demands or do anything without instruction. It's not that they are more enthusiastic, it's just that they don't have a cumulative mind.

It is a huge pressure on anyone supervising lots of volunteers doing anything other than maintaining trail or closing old trail lines. I admire anyone doing it well and I know there are a number on this forum - 800 volunteers for a single job comes to mind - holy moly.


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## BonkedAgain (Aug 23, 2005)

I hear ya, RP. I have seen many a project devolve into disaster when well meaning and enthusiastic volunteers started flinging dirt with little or no guidance. In the end the effort required to repair the mess created can exceed the effort gained by releasing all that pent-up energy. Around here one of the first things we ask when we do a project is Who will be the crew leaders? The number of volunteers allowed to work on the project is limited by the number of experienced crew leaders we have available to manage it.

I also hear what you are saying about IMBA TCC visits. I have done a couple of those and in both cases the TCC people had little if any real world trail building experience. What I heard from the last ones is that they are picked based on many factors, like their ability to be cooped up in a small car together for weeks on end or how comfortable they feel about public speaking. Actual trail expertise can be taught to them, I'm told. The result is what you saw, good PowerPoint presentations and chaos out in the field. That's unfortunate.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I have observed a TCC boiling water on their camp stove to melt ice to "armor", and completely destroy, an awesome arroyo swoop in the process. Real bossy too...  To be fair, trail building has changed a lot, it was an enthusiastically received TCC visit that helped initially pull together the trail building community in Gallup back in the day. IMBA always had a bit of a chip on it's shoulder, though, and snubbed the local builders who had been building in the area for 10 years, and had the conditions figured out, and were producing beautiful sustainable trail. But I digress...

It has also been my experience that volunteers can quickly become a liability if they require a lot of supervision, and "supplies". Currently we have a system whereby volunteers can work with our YCC crews, under YCC workman's comp insurance, and learn trail building by working with professionals. It's been a very good way of utilizing volunteer labor for us. I realize this may not work in other locations, although it could in some, I think.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

BonkedAgain said:


> Around here one of the first things we ask when we do a project is Who will be the crew leaders? The number of volunteers allowed to work on the project is limited by the number of experienced crew leaders we have available to manage it.
> .


That mirrors what has worked for us. We have a core group of 15 experienced builders who serve as crew leaders. We have "unofficial" build days pretty much every weekend with that dedicated group of core/experienced builders with a few new and/or less experienced builders mixed in. With a lot of experienced folks on hand it's pretty easy to keep an eye on the less experienced folks and give them some instruction.

Then, we have "official" build days once a month that are more widely publicized. We'll get 30-40 people out for those, and then we have our experienced builders as crew leaders. Each crew leader gets assigned a specific task or project, and the crew sizes vary by what is needed for that project, but generally are on the order of 5-8 people per crew.

The crew leader is then responsible for the quality of that specific project, and needs to work with the folks on the crew to make sure they understand what needs to be done and how to do it.

Crew leaders also assign tasks to individual crew members based on skill and experience. Obviously, you want your experienced people doing finish work like shaping and compacting berms, whereas it doesn't take a lot of skill to move dirt with a wheelbarrow.

Even with that process in place (and it isn't as formal and rigid as it sounds) there are still things that don't quite go right or turn out as you hope and need re-work.

But yeah....high number of in-experienced volunteers with little supervision = big problems.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

It pretty much sounds like the momentum is towards professional MTB trail building, with volunteer education and maintenance duties. Certainly that is where things are going here in Australia. 

Pro building addresses so many land manager issues and the ability to bang out quality and sustainable trail in much less time allows volunteers to offer and provide basic maintenance to keep their work in top shape. Therefore land manager concerns regarding longer term outcomes are answered.

I know some riders will always argue against trail change and sterilisation. Chances are they will get to hear the same argument from new riders in the future. Over time the sanitised trail they used to hate will become one they love because it became more gnarly over time (as expected by the original builders). Then when they perform the inevitable long term repairs......... 

I have no doubt the average volunteer would prefer going out with clippers once every year and a shovel to clear drains 3 times a year than the stress of actually building new trail. Building new stuff always has added stress; often generated by the organisers. Some maintenance volunteers will progress into "builder" standard with the option of larger maintenance jobs or training for a career in professional building.

I don't know about you, but seeing an increasing number of people training to do something that actually makes a physical and tangible and emotional difference to our world is something really positive. More jobs in building great trail may be the greatest legacy of MTB other than fun. Bring it on


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

I came back and checked this thread after a long absence. Wow, it really took on a life of its own. Hope it's not out of line for me to thank everyone for their thoughts on a topic near and dear to me.

FWIW, we closed out the building season with a last minute reroute. We roughed in a bit of trail around trail sited in a poorly drained area overlaid with 12" plus of silty loam. No second guessing so far, but we completed it late in the year and it probably flew under the radar for a lot of riders.

I got myself elected to the board of directors for the park's Friends group. Hoping to convince them to invest their considerable fund-raising expertise in upgrading the bike trails. I want to sell them on the idea of tread improvement to the smallest/closest-to-the-trailhead loop to make it as beginner-friendly as possible. I'd like to hire a local trail pro to do the job, but more realistically we will probably work toward heavy machine certification for me and my partner, and do the job ourselves.

My thinking is that opening up the trail to beginner/intermediate riders will boost the ridership of the trails and we will be able to find enough help to keep the trails open after I'm forced by old age to retire.

I'm hoping that we can keep the best parts of the "expert" section of the trail largely as they currently exist. The newest trail has some great rock gardens that I also hope to keep as is, but the DNR is being extremely difficult to deal with and we may end up loosing it over issues unrelated to this thread.

Apologies if any of this is redundant or too far off-topic.

I don't hate the old-school gnar-trail lovers, I want to accommodate them, I identify with them. I just can't run my trail to suit their wishes alone and have it survive the next decade. It may just be old fart style thinking about "my" legacy, but that's where I am. I'll be out of this game before too much longer and I don't want it to go away, or leave an unworkable mess behind.

Walt


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Leaving a great trail is something of a life ambition. Building MTB trail is one tangible way to leave those positive footprints. Sounds like you are keeping on the crest of the MTB wave Walt and taking advocacy to the next level. Good on you mate. Your trail will be sound.

I have always said our land is our land and we should be able to access it. All my life there was never any opposition until the last 15 years; building opposition. Not to me being there, but to all aspects of just getting to be there, regardless of why you wanted to be "there". I never got into trouble for being somewhere I shouldn't, but did have a number of talks with land owners about what I could do on their land. More recently by doing the right thing and managing all the political hassles, there has been the chance to leave something other people like and enjoy. New riding buddies by proxy.

In this place it seems we are on the verge of a huge investment in MTB and it came via advocacy, not by riders just pillaging the terrain. We got some nice new trail built this week because of advocacy, public and land manager support. What happened this week may be a drop in the ocean if plans go through next year.



























If I lived in your place Walt Dizzy, I would feel so happy that you were on the side of MTB and cared enough to see in the next generation of trail volunteers. Someone has to and if we don't keep our face in the game, land managers may let their minds drift from our target. Merry Christmas WD. Great thread.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

This showed up on the local group facebook page tonite



> I rode BRP on New Year's Day with a group and the trails were in awesome shape, it was also nice to see so many other riders out enjoying the day. The trail maintenance has helped the trails stay in really good shape. The new(er), wider bridge, and erosion control are all good additions to the trails. It seems though that the trails are becoming "sanitized", log crossings have been removed, new trails cut to avoid technical sections, and even multiple turns being eliminated by cutting in a straight trail. This idea of "flowing single track" is a new phenomenon that has no place in true mountain biking. If someone wants to ride a straight, smooth, fast trail, they can buy a road bike. I'm not criticizing anyone, without maintenance the trails would be in terrible shape. I'm just saying they don't all need to be smooth and fast.


Just 3 weeks ago we finished a new 3/4 mile stretch with 3 log crossings, a 30 foot skinny and a rock garden 25 yards long :lol: There's no rocky areas in the park so the rock garden was created by gathering rocks in a wheelbarrow & transporting them to the site. Any new stuff put in the past 5 years bypasses old eroded fall line trail (the old lines were left open for the people who prefer that nonsense), trail damaged by logging and poor draining areas that are a constant maintenance issue.


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## Tom Shaw (Feb 19, 2014)

“ I'll be out of this game before too much longer and I don't want it to go away, or leave an unworkable mess behind.

Walt “

I share this thought with you Walt.

This thread has been such a great read and I thank all those who have posted their thoughts about the massive hours of volunteer effort that goes into building trails. After a couple decades being involved with maintaining and building singletrack I now understand that stable year after year funding is one of the most important ingredients in a long lasting trail formula. We all known and can see it in this thread that most riders will never ever help with any volunteer time. They think that the trail is just there or that some people would rather do trail work then ride. For the most part I do not see this changing over time.

So finding a way to educate the owners and users of a trail system that regular funding is required for long term enjoyment is the best way to give our work a fun future.


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