# Carousel Design



## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

Is this company still in business? After speaking with Jeff I sent them a deposit and a tracing in June 2011 and haven't heard anything since. No responses to phone messages or emails. 

Any help in contacting them would be appreciated.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Jeff was a good guy and made some nice stuff. I managed to get a set of his bags back in the day. Recently I heard he is difficult to get a hold of and a few people are without bags. I really hope he is still around as he was a good guy. I would not hold your breath though it might be a while.


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## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

crux said:


> Jeff was a good guy and made some nice stuff. I managed to get a set of his bags back in the day. Recently I heard he is difficult to get a hold of and a few people are without bags. I really hope he is still around as he was a good guy. I would not hold your breath though it might be a while.


Maybe he caught what Matt Chester had...I'm still waiting on a frame from MC I ordered in 2005.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

2xPneu said:


> Maybe he caught what Matt Chester had...I'm still waiting on a frame from MC I ordered in 2005.


Sorry to hear about the MC frame. Hope you can track him down in Canada to get some of your $ back. Think MC took a few individuals $$$ over the years.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2012)

Jeff is a great guy. I swung by his shop a few month ago and picked up some bags. I would be patient but give him a call every once in a while. You will be stoked with his work.


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## SingleTrackLovr (Apr 25, 2007)

Frame ordered 2005 still waiting, bags ordered 2011 still waiting........
Hell man you'll be dead before you get this bike built.


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

CDW has gotten hammered a lot for failing to deliver and for not responding to inquiries. I've never met Jeff, so I have no idea whether he's a "good guy." Many of people seem to think that he is, despite running a terrible business--so I'm not going to rip him personally.

But after not getting an responses from Jeff about a year ago, I bought bags from Phantom (custom frame bag) and Revelate (seat bag, harness, gas tank). Both companies are terrific, and they are run by great guys.


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## bmike (Nov 17, 2009)

He's too busy riding... Assuming its the same Jeff.

Multiday Self-Supported Mountain Bike Rides | Bicycling Magazine


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

*Caveat emptor*

I'm one of the people who got burned by Carousel. Gave him a meticulous pattern, a deposit and 6 months to do a frame bag. After several non-replied inquiries I finally caught him by phone. He admitted he "didn't even reply to any emails" during the period in question, and had no explanation why my bag was not even started beyond the desired completion date. Quickly changed the subject to how I'd be first in the queue to get a bag made. No dice. It's been a year and a half, so I assume he has no intention of refunding my deposit. Sure, he's a nice guy, but that's irrelevant. He failed at communication and production, and stole my (and apparently others') deposit.

Conversely, Scott F. at Porcelain Rocket was spot on with communication and delivered several custom pieces-on time and for a nice price.

Jeff screwed himself more than he screwed anyone else. I have to wonder if he even realizes that. As if people in a small community such as bikepacking don't talk to each other... Truly pathetic.


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

She&I said:


> Jeff screwed himself more than he screwed anyone else. I have to wonder if he even realizes that.


As one of the guys who pioneered the whole ultra-light bag movement, it's tough to watch him fail. But ripping people off isn't cool, and diminishes my sympathy. If he doesn't want to (or can't) make bags anymore, he could simply refund everyone's deposits and take down his website.


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## SingleTrackLovr (Apr 25, 2007)

She&I said:


> I'm one of the people who got burned by Carousel. Gave him a meticulous pattern, a deposit and 6 months to do a frame bag. After several non-replied inquiries I finally caught him by phone. He admitted he "didn't even reply to any emails" during the period in question, and had no explanation why my bag was not even started beyond the desired completion date. Quickly changed the subject to how I'd be first in the queue to get a bag made. No dice. It's been a year and a half, so I assume he has no intention of refunding my deposit. Sure, he's a nice guy, but that's irrelevant. He failed at communication and production, and stole my (and apparently others') deposit.
> 
> Conversely, Scott F. at Porcelain Rocket was spot on with communication and delivered several custom pieces-on time and for a nice price.
> 
> Jeff screwed himself more than he screwed anyone else. I have to wonder if he even realizes that. As if people in a small community such as bikepacking don't talk to each other... Truly pathetic.





TobyGadd said:


> As one of the guys who pioneered the whole ultra-light bag movement, it's tough to watch him fail. But ripping people off isn't cool, and diminishes my sympathy. If he doesn't want to (or can't) make bags anymore, he could simply refund everyone's deposits and take down his website.


Toby,
Two long time mtbr members have reported their money has been taken and no goods received from this vendor. I think you should remove this vendor from the Bikepacking gear bags - who makes 'em? list.

I don't want to check the list for a vendor then post a question to see if I can trust the vendor before placing my order.
just my 2 cents


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

SingleTrackLovr said:


> Toby,
> Two long time mtbr members have reported their money has been taken and no goods received from this vendor. I think you should remove this vendor from the Bikepacking gear bags - who makes 'em? list.
> 
> I don't want to check the list for a vendor then post a question to see if I can trust the vendor before placing my order.
> just my 2 cents


I've been struggling with this for a while. There's really no perfect answer. In the end, I've decided to leave him on the list for now. I'm really not in the business of policing a business's customer service, beyond posting a warning or two.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

TobyGadd said:


> I've been struggling with this for a while. There's really no perfect answer. In the end, I've decided to leave him on the list for now. I'm really not in the business of policing a business's customer service, beyond posting a warning or two.


I appreciate discretion, Toby. OTOH, when a moderator on a site called MTB Review includes a vendor in a list, it is (to my mind) an endorsement. Where would you post said warnings?

What would a vendor have to do to be nixed from the list? Would there have to be a certain number of different bikepackers corroborating the same bad behavior? A certain dollar amount of theft? A firsthand experience?

Not goading, just curious. Cheers...


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

She&I said:


> I appreciate discretion, Toby. OTOH, when a moderator on a site called MTB Review includes a vendor in a list, it is (to my mind) an endorsement. Where would you post said warnings?
> 
> What would a vendor have to do to be nixed from the list? Would there have to be a certain number of different bikepackers corroborating the same bad behavior? A certain dollar amount of theft? A firsthand experience?
> 
> Not goading, just curious. Cheers...


It's a good question, so I know that you're not goading.

The minute I decide who NOT to list, is the minute that I inherently start endorsing the remaining vendors. And, for all I know, some of them may also be guilty of the same stuff that CDW stands accused of.

MTBR is a review site. You'll find all sorts of crappy products and vendors listed on this site--and the members (like you!) rip them to pieces. By not listing CDW, there would be nothing to review.

I'm not here to police vendors, but rather allow members to speak their minds.


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## eugenemtbing (Nov 16, 2010)

I am new to bike packing (but not MTBR). When I started looking at bag manufacturers, I read the listings in this forum's stickies and looked at websites created by the various bag makers. The Carousel website is pretty nice, and it looks like it is up to date. I had no idea it would have been a risky venture ordering from them, had I not seen this thread. 

I think many people look to the experienced voices on MTBR for guidance on technical issues and for advice on the best way to make investments in their hobby. The more clearly certain warning signs can be posted, the better.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

TobyGadd said:


> It's a good question, so I know that you're not goading.
> 
> The minute I decide who NOT to list, is the minute that I inherently start endorsing the remaining vendors. And, for all I know, some of them may also be guilty of the same stuff that CDW stands accused of.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, Toby. I see your point, although I have some ethical issues with the net result. To be fair, MTBR is not in the business of ethics.

Thanks for the discussion.

PS: RE "rip them to pieces": I reported exactly what happened. I'm not sure how that can be characterized as vindictiveness, which it sounds like you have. I simply don't want the uninformed to have to go through what I and others have with this vendor. I'd say Jeff ripped himself to pieces when he treated some of us the way he did.


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

She&I said:


> Fair enough, Toby. I see your point, although I have some ethical issues with the net result. To be fair, MTBR is not in the business of ethics.
> 
> Thanks for the discussion.
> 
> PS: RE "rip them to pieces": I reported exactly what happened. I'm not sure how that can be characterized as you have. I simply don't want the uninformed to have to go through what I and others have with this vendor.


I've entered the grey area and made a change. See what you think.

FYI, my "rip them to pieces" comment didn't refer to your response to CDW. Please re-read my post. I was referring to the fact that MTBR members can--and sometimes do--post scathing reviews on MTBR. That's how the site works--members post reviews (glowing, positive, negative, hateful, etc), and moderators only intercede in rare instances. Your review was appropriate, polite, and well-received.


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## SingleTrackLovr (Apr 25, 2007)

> -Carousel Design Works (Moderator TobyGadd: based on MTBR-member feedback, CDW may not be delivering on all orders).


thank you, as someone who is outfitting a new bike right now my confidence in the list has improved. This has taught me a lesson when dealing with small home run businesses. Contact them, talk to them on the phone if possible before putting down big $$$


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Hey, Toby, I appreciate your balancing act here, and putting forethought into your decisions is a good thing. I think your addition to the list is apropos–in a positive light that fewer (hopefully no one) will get hosed on their big ride.

I did as you suggested and re-read your post. It still (IMO) infers what I took away from it, but that's neither here nor there. Thanks for your explanation.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

TobyGadd said:


> I'm not here to police vendors, but rather allow members to speak their minds.


Makes 100% sense to me.

A vendor makes their own path. Over the years this board has been a great source of information. Think the information should be available good, bad or otherwise.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

replying here seems a bit petty, but for the sake of others who might lose out: i put a significant deposit down with jeff several years ago. communication reduced then stopped. no bags, no explanation. i would strongly suggest that anyone looking for bags avoids jeff. i know of 3 others personally who have had very similar experiences. beware.


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## dream4est (May 21, 2003)

As a small business owner who sells a product to cyclists, I find this conduct absolutely criminal. If you order an item online, over the phone or through email exchanges, it is a binding agreement. To not finish the deal is theft and negligence. 

As a bikepacker, I feel that people like Jeff and Matt are no better than any other scammer in this industry. But for some reason they get treated like victims. Trust me these guys are straight con artists. Just like the mail order guys who scam people. I would recommend to them to never show for a bikepack race. The people you have ripped off are not going to be happy.

Since everyone looking at this thread is interested in bikepacking bags, I suggest what I have recently done. Make your own gear. Why? Well for starters you wont have to wait in some queue because some ego freak thinks he is better than his customers. 

Second- you are not bound to the same standard "we all copy each others bike bags" from the big boys. The seat bags sway in four directions after a couple of hours riding, the harnesses crunch cables and hold dry bags down but not tight enough thus allowing play to develop, the top tube bags are way overpriced and the frame bags rely on too much zipper tension through attachment methods (Zippers fail in 20-30 overnighters. We buy frame bags to stuff until nearly exploding- not to look cool on the bike. It takes longer to replace a zipper on a big boy frame bag than it takes to make your own new bag). 

Third- it aint that hard. My bags look nice but are not as nice visually as Revelate or Porcelain Rocket. But they outperform the big boys where it counts- they dont move at all. No loosening of straps ,degrading of performance and readjusting during the ride. This is simply not possible with the big boys- they cant make the bags for someone elses bike and test, rework and dial in. It doesnt take sewing skill to make these bags- it takes only the ability to visualize the bag from inside out and correctly plan your steps to complete the bag. Make a mistake and use your seam ripper and start over. Cant sew it all inside out? A little top stitch never hurt anyone- it would only be noticed by bag makers. Same color thread as material hides most errors or extra seams and generally the bag loaded on the bike will hide most of the seams anyway.

Did i make mistakes? Sure, but I learned and reworked and tested and sewed some extra straps and velcro to make it happen. And I paid 1/7th of what I would have paid to wait for big boy bags. In two weeks spare time I made 4 bags and 3 dry sacks, for the price of one gas tank plus shipping from Revelate. I used some patterns and ideas from bikepacking.net MYOG forum, and I looked at everyones websites to compare my ideas to theirs. But I really used my own experience in bikepacking to design bags that fit my needs.


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

Howdy all,

For better exposure and more relevance, I moved a few great DIY posts to: Make Your Own Bikepacking gear - Mtbr Forums


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## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

*Better Business, or maybe not*

FWIW I decided to file a complaint with the BBB on Oct 4. After receiving no reply from CDW after several attempts by the BBB, Jeff finally replied to the BBB with the following:

11/19/2012	BBB	RECEIVE BUSINESS RESPONSE : Thank you for contacting me about this matter. This custom order has gone uncompleted for a variety of reasons, but I am making efforts to resolve the matter and will be completing the work and shipping the order as originally agreed upon this week. I will contact the customer to notify them of the status, completion and delivery ASAP, and I will contact you with shipping information for this order this week. If I can do more to assist you in resolving this complaint, please let me know.
Jeff Boatman
Carousel Design Works

"This week" was last week, and I haven't heard fvck-all from CDW. Granted it was Thanksgiving, but if he was sincere about it one would think he would have at least touched base with me and told me it was in the works. I assume he's simply slow rolling the BBB as he's been slow rolling me since June 2011.

Between him and Matt Chester I'm suicidal. Why me? Why me? :madman:


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

It's good that you posted a complain, although I don't know if it will change how CDW operates. The BBB is a toothless organization, with no enforcement powers beyond sending official-looking nastygrams.


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

BBB is a joke, if you become a paying member the complaints will go away. The purpose of the BBB is to collect money from businesses.


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## dookiedoodle (Jan 28, 2012)

*Issue resolved*

I have a good friend who has actually been on bikepacking trips with Jeff who said he is a good guy who makes the best bikepacking bags. I figured if you spend time in the woods with someone you should know them right? So I ordered a frame bag and fuel cell. After many attempts to contact Jeff without reply my bags showed up 2 months late along with an extra fuel cell, map case, small parts organizer bag and a full refund. I don't know what happened but my faith in mountain people has been restored. Jeff Boatman did the right thing. The bags are sweet.


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

dookiedoodle said:


> I'm yet another sucker ripped off by Jeff Boatman. I have a good friend who has actually been on bikepacking trips with Jeff who said he is a good guy who makes the best bikepacking bags. I figured if you spend time in the woods with someone you should know them right? So I contacted Jeff about a frame bag and fuel tank. I had a pleasant timely email exchange with him about specs, price, when I needed the bag for a trip and he even confirmed that he got the pattern for my bag I sent him. After I sent him the money via paypal I haven't heard a thing from Jeff, 4 months, 50 emails and a report to the BBB (he didn't bother to reply to them about my complaint). I don't see how he could be a "nice guy." *JEFF BOATMAN IS A THIEF*. He is not nice at all. He is a con-man, a grifter, a criminal. MTBR you should remove him from your vendor list. Please do not help Carousel Design Works fish for more suckers.


Lots more complaints these days. I've updated his listing to reflect the new reports. I'm not going to delete the listing though, as a warning is more helpful than a void!


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## dookiedoodle (Jan 28, 2012)

Carousel design works


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

Hey dookiedoodle,

I've deleted your duplicate posts. I feel your pain, but please keep it in one thread. Thanks.

Cheers,
Toby


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## FrontRanger (Apr 28, 2004)

I am bummed to read all this. I picked up a seatbag and h-bar bag several years ago (before problems started I guess). He was extremely professional and easy to work with. Quality was impeccable. I wanted to do more business with him but never got replies to email.

That said I'll take this opportunity to point out that there are several "little guys" doing great work. Jpaks in Denver was awesome to work with(he is local to me) and the stuff from Porcelain Rocket looks top notch as well.


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## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

dookiedoodle said:


> Carousel design works


So how was the issue resolved? My sh!tty situation with jeffthefvckingthiefboatman is still completely unresolved.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

Please ignore!


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## bmike (Nov 17, 2009)

bikeny said:


> This situation definitely sucks for those who are out money. Unfortunately, not uncommon in this industry. I actually ordered a couple of things from his website (before I saw this thread of course), and they are on a truck right now to be delivered. I made sure they were in stock before ordering though. He seems to be making his stock items still, as well as bags for Salsa/Surly/907. Maybe he is just too busy making that stuff that he doesn't have time to make the custom stuff anymore. BUT, that is no excuse for lack of communication and crappy customer service! I hope this doesn't turn into a Matt Chester or HBC saga!
> 
> PS: They are really nice bags though!


Are you sure you haven't mixed up Revelate with Carousel?
CDW's 'stock list' is dated 2011.
http://www.carouseldesignworks.com/cdwofferings.pdf

Eric @ Revelate makes the stuff for Surly / Salsa, etc.

Don't mix em up. Eric is great to work with (when he was doing custom), returns emails, and ships when he says.


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## VO2 Lax (Jan 2, 2011)

Yes, please do not mix Revelate Designs up with Carousel. My rig is complete Revelate Designs and Eric is a true craftsman that offers exceptional products and customer service! I had one small issue, sent it back, got it fixed with an upgrade at no charge along with communication throughout the process. I'm sticking with him for anything that's bikepacking related. He's got a loyal customer for life.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

CRAP! I sure did mix them up! My bags are Revelate, NOT Carousel, sorry about that! Carry on.


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## bmike (Nov 17, 2009)

bikeny said:


> CRAP! I sure did mix them up! My bags are Revelate, NOT Carousel, sorry about that! Carry on.


Can you edit your post below?


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## mangoman (Oct 25, 2005)

Has anyone heard from Jeff Boatman? His site looks like it's been sold and filled with garbage/spam content. I'm asking from a purely human standpoint, wondering if the guy is alive.


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## TobyGadd (Sep 9, 2009)

mangoman said:


> Has anyone heard from Jeff Boatman? His site looks like it's been sold and filled with garbage/spam content. I'm asking from a purely human standpoint, wondering if the guy is alive.


I've never met Jeff, but it looks like things haven't gone well for him. He went from being one of the original visionaries of bikepacking gear, to a scammer, to a ghost. I hope that he's OK. Life can be damn hard on people sometimes, and it's tough to watch someone get crushed. I hope that he reappears in happier days!


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