# 1x12 Lightweight Full Suspension Trail MTB: Let's Spend Lots of Money!



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

*Terrain:*
I'm looking to buy a mountain bike that can easily handle "trail" at the least, where the terrain I want to ride is a mixture of flowy and technical. I live in PA where we are nicknamed "rocksylvania", and the trails tend to look like hiking trails with lots of up and down elevation. Not sure what travel suspension would be best for this.

*Geometry:*
27.5 vs 29 - I am open to either, however I'd like to maybe use this to commute to and from trails where a 29er would be best. But not sure how I can have a 29er while still having a balance of nimble and downhill capability. Does that equate to a specific head tube angle I should look for?

There are often medium sized logs on trails, where I don't want to hit my bottom bracket, but nothing crazy high.

*Drivetrain:*
I'd like the drivetrain to be 1x12 for maximum range, mainly for steep climbs, but with the newer GX Eagle if it saves money.

*Weight:*
I am hoping to get a mtb that is around 30 lbs or less, if possible.

*Conclusion:*
Thanks for helping! I'd like actual bikes to compare which helps introduce me to specs to learn about. No budget, but don't want to spend money unnecessarily.


----------



## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I am not entirely sure but I don't think you will find any new bikes with the 1x12 drivetrain as stock? I could be wrong. I tried some Google magic but couldn't find any in particular.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Tallboy 3. for rocks you want rollover and a 29er is the best option.


----------



## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

To the Ops question, I'd say look for something in the 130-150mm travel range, all the brands have something in this "trail" range. As for 650B vs 29er,, that's personal preference, me, I personally have not had any issue with finding 29ers in this area that aren't nimble and fun, get out and demo any bike you can to see what you actually like.

Hope your day job does not depend on your ability to perform online searches :skep: That's just one online shop...
Mountain Bikes MTB 1x12 Speed | Jenson USA (Page 1 of 2)



Battery said:


> I am not entirely sure but I don't think you will find any new bikes with the 1x12 drivetrain as stock? I could be wrong. I tried some Google magic but couldn't find any in particular.


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

Battery said:


> I am not entirely sure but I don't think you will find any new bikes with the 1x12 drivetrain as stock? I could be wrong. I tried some Google magic but couldn't find any in particular.


I see 2 pages of 1x12 bikes here but I don't know how to decipher how to get one that fits me.

Mountain Bikes 1x12 Speed | Jenson USA (Page 1 of 2)


----------



## Dr Evil (Sep 20, 2015)

Battery said:


> I am not entirely sure but I don't think you will find any new bikes with the 1x12 drivetrain as stock? I could be wrong. I tried some Google magic but couldn't find any in particular.


2018 Trek Fuel EX-8 27.5+ is a 1x12 but that bike may not be appropriate. Although he can turn it into a 29'er.


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

LyNx said:


> To the Ops question, I'd say look for something in the 130-150mm travel range, all the brands have something in this "trail" range. As for 650B vs 29er,, that's personal preference, me, I personally have not had any issue with finding 29ers in this area that aren't nimble and fun, get out and demo any bike you can to see what you actually like.
> 
> Hope your day job does not depend on your ability to perform online searches :skep: That's just one online shop...
> Mountain Bikes MTB 1x12 Speed | Jenson USA (Page 1 of 2)


Lol I posted the same link at the same time without seeing yours first :thumbsup:

Thanks for the sus travel guideline, gives me a bearing of what I need!


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Buy a frame through Competitive Cyclist / Backcountry and put whatever you want on it. They'll build to your specs.
30 pounds isn't what I'd call lightweight. My wife's medium SB5 Turq is 25.5 pounds with 1x11, flat pedals and 2.6" tires front and back.


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

alexbn921 said:


> Tallboy 3. for rocks you want rollover and a 29er is the best option.


I would consider a Santa Cruz. Would their Hightower be better since it has more travel?

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/hightower

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/hightower-lt


----------



## Battery (May 7, 2016)

LyNx said:


> Hope your day job does not depend on your ability to perform online searches :skep: That's just one online shop...
> Mountain Bikes MTB 1x12 Speed | Jenson USA (Page 1 of 2)


I'm retired 

When I did an initial search, it sent me to Jenson's site but for some odd reason, it came up in Chinese currency and some of the bikes were 1x11.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Hightower is a great allround bike. Tallboy is a little lighter and a better climber. PA isn't that steep so you don't need the extra HTA on the Hightower.
Hightower if you want more plush and better decending.
Tallboy if you want better climbing and flat land nimbleness.
I have a 130mm fork on my tallboy with 2.5x29 tires. it's a beast even on the DH trails.


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

alexbn921 said:


> Hightower is a great allround bike. Tallboy is a little lighter and a better climber. PA isn't that steep so you don't need the extra HTA on the Hightower.
> Hightower if you want more plush and better decending.
> Tallboy if you want better climbing and flat land nimbleness.
> I have a 130mm fork on my tallboy with 2.5x29 tires. it's a beast even on the DH trails.


Ah, that puts it in perspective. So if 130mm is good on DH, that should be good enough for me.


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

MSU Alum said:


> Buy a frame through Competitive Cyclist / Backcountry and put whatever you want on it. They'll build to your specs.
> 30 pounds isn't what I'd call lightweight. My wife's medium SB5 Turq is 25.5 pounds with 1x11, flat pedals and 2.6" tires front and back.


That SB5.5 that they have looks nice as their only 29er. I would love to get in the 25 lb range.

At that weight, can it be effective as a commuter bike too, given that tires arent too aggressive?


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Any bike is a compromise, $, durability, weight,,,,
for a light weight i like a 1x11 21 pounds, 29 hardtail
for range i like an old 27 speeds 23 pounds 26in hardtail
without a car i pedal daily in snow etc and to and from the trails
do you need a rear suspension?
how much do you weight?
with say 2,500$ you could have 2 good used bikes, do you have enough room?


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

33red said:


> Any bike is a compromise, $, durability, weight,,,,
> for a light weight i like a 1x11 21 pounds, 29 hardtail
> for range i like an old 27 speeds 23 pounds 26in hardtail
> without a car i pedal daily in snow etc and to and from the trails
> ...


I believe that I do need full suspension as I feel like I will love the tough sections of single track.

I am 6'0 and 170 lbs.

Yes I have room for multiple bikes, but would like to limit it to 2. A full suspension and a rigid lightweight mtb bike for commuting and gravel grinding (something like a Salsa Cutthroat if it was 1x12).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

I ended up with a Hightower, which fits all of your requirements. Mine is a 2017 model with a Rockshox Pike and 27.5+ tires (Maxxis Recon+). 

Socal terrain is heavily rutted and dusty with loose sections, which is why I went with the 27.5+. Otherwise I probably would have gone with the 29s.


----------



## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

Your range of bikes is huge to be honest 

What Brands are in your area at your LBS's?

A Fuel EX 9.8 Plus will handle everything you want to do. Can run 27.5x2.8 or 29er wheels


Eagle, Unless you have long fire road climbs I haven't found a need for the dinner plate.

you can get something from 100-150 travel. You may like how a 120 bike feels over a 150 bike depending on how you ride, I currently ride everything on a HT that a lot of people ride on a 120-140 travel FS.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

lmike6453 said:


> That SB5.5 that they have looks nice as their only 29er. I would love to get in the 25 lb range.
> 
> At that weight, can it be effective as a commuter bike too, given that tires arent too aggressive?


I don't think a light bike would be bad for commuting because it's light. 
They have 29ers from Niner, Ibis, Evil, Yeti, and Pivot, not just the 5.5


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Keep in mind, OP, sure we have rocks, roots and logs, but it can also be pretty tight and twisty. 
Where you normally ride at?

I know I happen to really like the Trek. The rear Re:aktiv suspension really truly is excellent here, where it is chunky, but quick, short uphills that require some grinding.


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

DethWshBkr said:


> Keep in mind, OP, sure we have rocks, roots and logs, but it can also be pretty tight and twisty.
> Where you normally ride at?
> 
> I know I happen to really like the Trek. The rear Re:aktiv suspension really truly is excellent here, where it is chunky, but quick, short uphills that require some grinding.


Very true. I am just getting into it and haven't tried all of these places yet, but see here for a bucket list I intend to try. Like White Clay creek park for flow, and Jacobsburg for technical maybe:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=1055579

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

brent701 said:


> Eagle, Unless you have long fire road climbs I haven't found a need for the dinner plate.


You can gear it however works for you. If you want low range, use a smaller chainring. Want high range for speed, use a bigger chainring. Just like any 1x. The point of Eagle is the range between highest and lowest cogs.



lmike6453 said:


> *Terrain:*
> I'm looking to buy a mountain bike that can easily handle "trail" at the least, where the terrain I want to ride is a mixture of flowy and technical. I live in PA where we are nicknamed "rocksylvania", and the trails tend to look like hiking trails with lots of up and down elevation. Not sure what travel suspension would be best for this.
> 
> *Geometry:*
> ...


Ride some bikes. Pick what you like. A bike that is great on trails will be not as great on pavement. Do you want a bike for trails, or a bike for pavement? Or both? Don't bother trying to get something that will be good for both, because it'll be too much of a compromise.

Can probably find a number of carbon fs GX Eagle bikes in the $4k range. Less for aluminum, hardtails, and so on. 30lb is pretty typical for a stock build for longer travel "trail" FS bikes. Prob a touch less for a more xc bike, but with your desire for better downhill capability, you're probably looking at longer travel bikes.

As for hitting lots, bb height is only partly responsible there. With skill, you can get a big with even the lowest bb over a fairly large downed tree without hitting the bb.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Harold said:


> You can gear it however works for you. If you want low range, use a smaller chainring. Want high range for speed, use a bigger chainring. Just like any 1x. The point of Eagle is the range between highest and lowest cogs.
> 
> Ride some bikes. Pick what you like. A bike that is great on trails will be not as great on pavement. Do you want a bike for trails, or a bike for pavement? Or both? Don't bother trying to get something that will be good for both, because it'll be too much of a compromise.
> 
> ...


That was part of my point. I have a 1x11 SRAM 10-42, 32 in front but with a car i would use 28. So a bike with rolling tires, the other with more grip and geared to climb.


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

If you are ever in the Harrisburg area you could take a look at my Remedy.
It's a 2015 9.9 frame with 9.8 components, 160mm Fox 36 fork.
Size 21.5 and 28.0 lb.

I am 6 foot 200 lb.


----------



## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

I get the whole point of the eagle. 
My XTR system is lighter 

I do have a eagle GX system going on a Timberjack frame I’m building. I got it for a damn good price with a carbon cranks and it’s all brand new. 

My point was, don’t only look for Bikes with a eagle system. 

Like you said. It comes down to how someone wants to ride and what works for them along with the area they ride in 

Here in AZ. I don’t need the 50t. Would only need it for two races and that’s even if I raced them geared which I don’t. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

brent701 said:


> I get the whole point of the eagle.
> My XTR system is lighter
> 
> I do have a eagle GX system going on a Timberjack frame I'm building. I got it for a damn good price with a carbon cranks and it's all brand new.
> ...


While I like the 1x11 on my Remedy, I honestly like the XTR Di2 2x11 I have on my Scarp far better. When it's time to replace it on my remedy I will probably say screw the ridiculously overpriced Sram stuff and put a 2x Di2 on the Remedy!

Definitely do not limit yourself to that drivetrain.


----------



## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

DethWshBkr said:


> While I like the 1x11 on my Remedy, I honestly like the XTR Di2 2x11 I have on my Scarp far better. When it's time to replace it on my remedy I will probably say screw the ridiculously overpriced Sram stuff and put a 2x Di2 on the Remedy!
> 
> Definitely do not limit yourself to that drivetrain.


How is that DI2? Been looking at it a lot.

I don't limit myself with gearing 

But I also race SS. But that does have 3 speeds 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

brent701 said:


> How is that DI2? Been looking at it a lot.
> 
> I don't limit myself with gearing
> 
> ...


I really like it on the mountain bike. Absolutely precise, and if you want to run a double chainring, the front shifting is absolutely seamless with the rear. I have it on my road bike as well, and while again the shifting speed and precision is very nice, the mountain bike is definitely where I feel it has the biggest benefits. Usually the mountain bike is where you've got dirt, grime and other garbage in your cables. Obviously you do not have that with the di2. It doesn't matter how muddy or how wet the derailleur is, it works perfectly every time. I have ridden many times when it is absolutely pouring down rain. Never a hiccup.
Probably one of my favorite things is being able to just hold down the trigger and blow up the cassette when the vertical changes dramatically.

When I do ride my Remedy again, it takes me a bit to get rid of customed to what feels like cheaper shifting. 
I have never liked Shimano rapid fire shifters ever. That's one of the reason why I always ran Sram stuff. I used to always do the grip shift. Sram triggers I don't mind. The di2 shifter however while funky to some people I like it.


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

I ride Trails on my 100/100 full suspension. Lost of these bikes come in Carbon and eagle. Keep in mind eagle is heavier than 1x11. Do you really need that much range?

A good 100/120 bike is a nice all around bike. 

Not sure if all of Sedon a including Triple H, Winsor, most of Bentonville, 99% of texas constitutes trails. In the mountain last week I had an SB5.5 with eagle. I touched the 50 tooth once and immediately got out of it because it was too low. This was on an hour long climb up to Captain Jack. It would ave been pretty useful with a bigger front chainring to Harolds point. I think Eagle with a 34 (or 32) chainring would be the business.


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

Harold said:


> You can gear it however works for you. If you want low range, use a smaller chainring. Want high range for speed, use a bigger chainring. Just like any 1x. The point of Eagle is the range between highest and lowest cogs.
> 
> Ride some bikes. Pick what you like. A bike that is great on trails will be not as great on pavement. Do you want a bike for trails, or a bike for pavement? Or both? Don't bother trying to get something that will be good for both, because it'll be too much of a compromise.
> 
> ...


I plan on using this mostly off pavement, and having a separate lighter weight bike like a Salsa Cutthroat for commuting. But if this can be a commuter that would be awesome to not need another bike!


FJSnoozer said:


> I ride Trails on my 100/100 full suspension. Lost of these bikes come in Carbon and eagle. Keep in mind eagle is heavier than 1x11. Do you really need that much range?
> 
> A good 100/120 bike is a nice all around bike.
> 
> Not sure if all of Sedon a including Triple H, Winsor, most of Bentonville, 99% of texas constitutes trails. In the mountain last week I had an SB5.5 with eagle. I touched the 50 tooth once and immediately got out of it because it was too low. This was on an hour long climb up to Captain Jack. It would ave been pretty useful with a bigger front chainring to Harolds point. I think Eagle with a 34 (or 32) chainring would be the business.


I think I need the range because some single track I tried yesterday was super steep and I'm trying to minimize the amount of walking up the hill I have to do.



DethWshBkr said:


> If you are ever in the Harrisburg area you could take a look at my Remedy.
> It's a 2015 9.9 frame with 9.8 components, 160mm Fox 36 fork.
> Size 21.5 and 28.0 lb.
> 
> I am 6 foot 200 lb.


Thanks for the offer! I will definitely PM if I can make around that area.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

lmike6453 said:


> I plan on using this mostly off pavement, and having a separate lighter weight bike like a Salsa Cutthroat for commuting. But if this can be a commuter that would be awesome to not need another bike!I think I need the range because some single track I tried yesterday was super steep and I'm trying to minimize the amount of walking up the hill I have to do.
> 
> Thanks for the offer! I will definitely PM if I can make around that area.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Why on earth would you buy a cutthroat for commuting? Carbon is not exactly a "workhorse" type material. Can't bolt a rack to it. Can't bolt fenders on. Sure, carbon is light and racy (and that's what the cutthroat is). But it's also flashy and gets the attention of potential thieves. The Fargo makes a much better commuter if you want to go that way, and I chose a bike that's better suited for pavement. Give me a steel or aluminum commuter bike with plenty of braze ons for racks and fenders. Something overbuilt so it's rugged enough to load down with groceries and deal with rough pavement and bad weather. Give me a solid collection of midlevel components that work well but are also very durable.

You've not really demonstrated that you need RANGE on your mtb, either. You need a focus on low end gearing. That much is clear. But are you finding that your speed is limited by your high end gearing, too? I've seen no evidence to support that yet.


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

Harold said:


> Why on earth would you buy a cutthroat for commuting? Carbon is not exactly a "workhorse" type material. Can't bolt a rack to it. Can't bolt fenders on. Sure, carbon is light and racy (and that's what the cutthroat is). But it's also flashy and gets the attention of potential thieves. The Fargo makes a much better commuter if you want to go that way, and I chose a bike that's better suited for pavement. Give me a steel or aluminum commuter bike with plenty of braze ons for racks and fenders. Something overbuilt so it's rugged enough to load down with groceries and deal with rough pavement and bad weather. Give me a solid collection of midlevel components that work well but are also very durable.
> 
> You've not really demonstrated that you need RANGE on your mtb, either. You need a focus on low end gearing. That much is clear. But are you finding that your speed is limited by your high end gearing, too? I've seen no evidence to support that yet.


I see, please excuse my n00bness as I'm trying to learn. I saw the weight of the Fargo as 28.5 lbs. And the Cutthroat is 21 lbs.

I know that I won't have to worry about fenders and racks though, since I have bikepacking bags and plan on doing a Velcro fender to downtube if anything. Long seat bag will be on the rear.

I have the luxury of keeping my bike indoors at work which helps from the security perspective. But who knows where other bikepacking situations may take me.

For the full suspension mtb, you're right...not 100% sure that I will need the range. But also thought that the 1x12 alleviates other annoyances and problems with 1x11, such as backpedaling and chain popping.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

What on earth are you talking about? There is no issue with SRAM 10-42 1x11. 

Going with a moderate travel FS gives you a bike that can commute easily and lockout if needed and do fine on the trails. Your issues with climbs are probably not going to be fixed with an easier gear to push. How steep and how long is your singletrack that you need to get off the bike? If it is just too long and steep, commuting and fitness gained will handle that. If it is steep and short, your not going to need to be in a granny gear anyways. Look to adapting a different front chainring. With a Sram Direct mount crankset, you can go way down to say 28 and maintain proper chainline if needed. 

Eagle GX is fairly heavy, which will suck up a lot of your weight loss you are paying for. My Anthem advanced 29er has been my commuter for a long time. I do regular road rides of 30-40 miles and it is no big deal for me to ride 10-15 miles to the trailhead at a good pace and then ride home (after stopping at a 7/11 for nutrition of course). From a commuting standpoint, Sure I may be about 10-15% slower than if I was on a road bike, but if a car comes my way, I can make evasive maneuvers anywhere I want. If I spot some singletrack of a random cut through, boom suddenly I am mountain biking. 

There are tons of bikes that will work great for you. Specialized Camber, Treck fuel or top fuel!, Anthems, Tallboy, RM Element, Norco Revolver etc etc. Just pick pretty much any XC carbon FS and you will be well off. all the 2018 probably come with your 1x12 as well. A lot of these bikes will be 24-25 pounds off the showroom floor.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

lmike6453 said:


> I see, please excuse my n00bness as I'm trying to learn. I saw the weight of the Fargo as 28.5 lbs. And the Cutthroat is 21 lbs.
> 
> I know that I won't have to worry about fenders and racks though, since I have bikepacking bags and plan on doing a Velcro fender to downtube if anything. Long seat bag will be on the rear.
> 
> ...


Storing the bike indoors helps with security concerns for commuting. I will also say that for commuting it's so incredibly useful to be able to carry everything on the bike, no matter what it is. Rackless soft bags limit you pretty significantly in that regard. My commuter bike with a rack (an all-steel Salsa Vaya) is so incredibly versatile. It's definitely not light. But that doesn't matter. I'm not racing on it. But I can ride it just about anywhere and a rack with a few bungies makes it possible to carry all kinds of things. I've strapped all kinds of random $hit to my rack because I rode my bike somewhere not intending to carry anything home, but I wound up with something big and had to get it home several miles away. With a rack, no problem. Without a rack...problem.

I'm about to convert the bike to be more of a gravel road exploration bike. The fenders will be coming off. Might keep the rack on, might not. I have soft bags, too. I've just moved to an area where bike commuting is a lot less practical, but other kinds of riding are available to me. I will probably be using the bike to some degree to access fly fishing spots, which is something new to me that's interesting. The important point here is that this particular bike is built to be very versatile. I'll probably keep it in service for a very long time in one capacity or another.

All of that doesn't change the fact that the Cutthroat is meant to be lightweight and more racy. It was really built around long distance self-supported races. I'd rather bikepack on a full suspension bike, to be honest. The one guy I know who owns one bought it for gravel rides. He races the Dirty Kanza 200mi gravel race on it. Great bike. It's just a limited niche sort of thing. Salsa does a lot of those kinds of bikes, to be honest. If it was me with all the desires you have, I'd be looking at a nice all-around fs mtb and a versatile road bike to commute on. If you want to primarily ride fast on the road, then lean that direction. Maybe an alu cross bike or gravel bike with braze ons.

I don't think you've been reading the same stuff I'm reading about Eagle. The backpedal issue has many facets to it, and Eagle does not resolve them all. Many people still have problems. Some people have additional problems due to the new NW profile of the big ring. The width of Eagle is even greater than that of 11spd cassettes. That big cog just gets dished out over the hub flange some more to fit it in there, so chainline isn't improved. I personally don't have problems with my 1x11 and it's a good mix of stuff. Mostly Shimano, but with a Sunrace cassette (better gear ratios) and RaceFace crank w/ Absolute Black oval. It just works. It did have the backpedal issue, but I fixed it with a file on the cassette. Didn't cost me anything.


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

FJSnoozer said:


> What on earth are you talking about? There is no issue with SRAM 10-42 1x11.
> 
> Going with a moderate travel FS gives you a bike that can commute easily and lockout if needed and do fine on the trails. Your issues with climbs are probably not going to be fixed with an easier gear to push. How steep and how long is your singletrack that you need to get off the bike? If it is just too long and steep, commuting and fitness gained will handle that. If it is steep and short, your not going to need to be in a granny gear anyways. Look to adapting a different front chainring. With a Sram Direct mount crankset, you can go way down to say 28 and maintain proper chainline if needed.
> 
> ...


It was these youtube videos that I watched that explains problems, and then explains 1x12 and how it fixes some of them:











For how steep a hill is that I see, the best I can explain as an avid hiker is...a steep climb for 2 minutes if I was hiking. I know...vague. Here's an actual picture of a hill I tried to climb yesterday on a cheap Diamondback Hardtail. I'm in decent shape, just not for trying this on a 32lb HT with slick 45mm tires:



Thanks for the bike suggestions - I'll start looking these up.



Harold said:


> Storing the bike indoors helps with security concerns for commuting. I will also say that for commuting it's so incredibly useful to be able to carry everything on the bike, no matter what it is. Rackless soft bags limit you pretty significantly in that regard. My commuter bike with a rack (an all-steel Salsa Vaya) is so incredibly versatile. It's definitely not light. But that doesn't matter. I'm not racing on it. But I can ride it just about anywhere and a rack with a few bungies makes it possible to carry all kinds of things. I've strapped all kinds of random $hit to my rack because I rode my bike somewhere not intending to carry anything home, but I wound up with something big and had to get it home several miles away. With a rack, no problem. Without a rack...problem.
> 
> I'm about to convert the bike to be more of a gravel road exploration bike. The fenders will be coming off. Might keep the rack on, might not. I have soft bags, too. I've just moved to an area where bike commuting is a lot less practical, but other kinds of riding are available to me. I will probably be using the bike to some degree to access fly fishing spots, which is something new to me that's interesting. The important point here is that this particular bike is built to be very versatile. I'll probably keep it in service for a very long time in one capacity or another.
> 
> ...


This explains a lot about the Cutthroat that I did not know. I don't quite understand why it wouldn't be good for commuting though. Is it not durable? Or not comfortable? I'll start to check out the alu cross bike to compare and try to see what you mean more.

I think that I'll be good with frame bag + seat bag + top tube bag + handlebar bags for space. Thinking for bikepacking, the Anything Cage and jerry can bag can even extend it more if needed. That's cool that the Vaya works well for you though - it does seem versatile. Does extra weight cause you fatigue on long day rides? Say...if we were comparing 23lb bike vs 28lb.

It's great to hear that 1x11 doesn't have any serious problems, or that they can be remedied!


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

lmike6453 said:


> It was these youtube videos that I watched that explains problems, and then explains 1x12 and how it fixes some of them:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. That video is pretty bogus, and I wish I hadn't given him a view and my youtube dollars. 
-Can someone explain any reason why you would backpedal more than 3/4 of a turn to set up a technical power move
-who is putting out 5-600 watts in their 42?
- I have never had any of these issues, my bikes are set up properly, many bikes, and over 10K miles on 1x10 and 1x11
I will sate that I bend the teeth on the midrange climbing gears on GX. because of this, I will always run the CNCd version of the sram cassettes whch are $$. I am a grinder and put down big power to get up those hills like you describe.

which brings me to 
2. a 32 pound hardtail is fine for climbing that hill. You and your tires are the limiting factor.
-are you standing? 
-do you know to shift forward on the seat for climbing
-do you know to alternate riding positions on the climbs to conserve muscles (I.E. spin a bit and stand and GO as your legs fade)
-is your seat high enough? 
do you know that climbing = suffering and its ok for your legs to be on fire?

The nice FS bike you will end up buying with its capable tires will work wonders for your climbing traction, but you will also lose some of the power transfer of the hardtail. No one can truly tell you which of these will result in the ideal climbing machine for you. Its all hearsay. What will happen is, you will love the new bike, ride more because of it, and become a better climber over time. Have fun and get the bike that makes you want to get out there and attack everything. Niner puts "shutup legs" on their top tube for a reason. They want you to keep going!


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

lmike6453 said:


> This explains a lot about the Cutthroat that I did not know. I don't quite understand why it wouldn't be good for commuting though. Is it not durable? Or not comfortable? I'll start to check out the alu cross bike to compare and try to see what you mean more.
> 
> I think that I'll be good with frame bag + seat bag + top tube bag + handlebar bags for space. Thinking for bikepacking, the Anything Cage and jerry can bag can even extend it more if needed. That's cool that the Vaya works well for you though - it does seem versatile. Does extra weight cause you fatigue on long day rides? Say...if we were comparing 23lb bike vs 28lb.
> 
> It's great to hear that 1x11 doesn't have any serious problems, or that they can be remedied!


The Cutthroat, as a commuter, lacks utility. It's a fine bike, for what it was built for. It was built to be fast on gravel roads and fairly easy singletrack. It's meant to handle a fairly light load of ultralight backpacking/bikepacking gear in soft bags only. Speed is not a primary purpose of a commuter bike. Some commuter bikes focus a little more on speed capability than others, but utility is the primary function of a commuter bike. Commuting is not a place for dainty, overly precise high tech. Commuter bikes, more than most, get beat on and neglected. They need to be reliable EVERY DAY with no downtime. Even if you don't NEED to lock it up outside all the time, that should still be a consideration. You're likely to encounter situations where that will be necessary. A carbon bike locked to a rack might as well have a spotlight on it,, a theme song, balloons, and a searchlight to boot. It's going to attract attention, and not the kind you want. A commuter bike needs to blend in and disappear in the crowd. Beyond being carbon, the Cutthroat is a mountain bike with funny-looking handlebars. That's not going to reduce the amount of attention it gets.

I have never put my Vaya on a scale. That bike is a tank. It's built to handle a load and be comfortable in the process. I've ridden it in centuries and several other long day rides. No, it's not as fast as a 16lb speed machine. But honestly, the Cutthroat won't be that much faster than my Vaya given equal engines. It is more off-road capable. But we're talking riding a bike to work and around town, here. Even my Vaya is pretty fancy for that kind of bike. A ton of regular commuters wouldn't touch anything even close to that nice. They'll fix up and old mtb frame or an old steel or aluminum road bike. Something equally capable of handling a rack and fenders, but with even less cash outlay than my bike, and with far more years and "character" so it blends in even better. Even my bike is a bit on the flashy side.



FJSnoozer said:


> 1. That video is pretty bogus, and I wish I hadn't given him a view and my youtube dollars.
> -Can someone explain any reason why you would backpedal more than 3/4 of a turn to set up a technical power move


I strongly prefer leading with my my left foot for power moves. I absolutely would backpedal more than 3/4 of a turn to get my left pedal in exactly the right spot it needs to be in not only to give me the power I need, but also so that I can clear whatever is underneath me. And I absolutely do. Pisgah is in my backyard. There's chunk galore. There's occasion where I'm in 30x46 and I'm maxing out my available power, the climbs are so long and steep. And technical. So I ratchet for the above stated reasons. Dropping chain when I backpedal is non-negotiable. When I set up my drivetrain, I make sure that my bike will backpedal several rotations cleanly. I didn't have to specifically do anything to prevent backpedal problems until I put 11spd on. But I dealt with the situation and stopped the problem.



> - I have never had any of these issues, my bikes are set up properly, many bikes, and over 10K miles on 1x10 and 1x11


Just because you haven't had any issues yet doesn't mean you never will. All it means is you haven't encountered the "golden combination" of circumstances that made it an issue. Congratulations. Now STFU, because some people have had issues with it.



> I will sate that I bend the teeth on the midrange climbing gears on GX. because of this, I will always run the CNCd version of the sram cassettes whch are $$. I am a grinder and put down big power to get up those hills like you describe.


Now since I've never had that problem, I should berate you for shifting poorly and breaking parts because there's no possible way you could have problems with that. Right? Oh...right. Nevermind.



> 2. a 32 pound hardtail is fine for climbing that hill. You and your tires are the limiting factor.
> -are you standing?
> -do you know to shift forward on the seat for climbing
> -do you know to alternate riding positions on the climbs to conserve muscles (I.E. spin a bit and stand and GO as your legs fade)
> ...


Not every bike does well with the exact same positions. Have you ever hopped onto a bike that was so different from anything you've ever ridden before, and have to learn all over again which body positions to use in certain situations? I have. You probably haven't noticed if every bike is only slightly and incrementally different from your last one. But it's something I noticed after riding the same mtb for about 12 years and then buying a new one. It's real. It didn't take long, but it was something I had to think about for awhile.

You also seem to think that it's always possible to push harder and have the bike keep moving. Doesn't always work that way. Sometimes, I completely run out of the ability to push the pedals. At all. I get the burn. On some of my rides, I have a 2,000ft climb right out of the gate. I can suffer. But there's a point at which you just can't push anymore. And guess what, that happens for new riders a lot sooner than it happens for me, or for you. So give the guy a little bit of a break for wanting some lower gears.



> What will happen is, you will love the new bike, ride more because of it, and become a better climber over time. Have fun and get the bike that makes you want to get out there and attack everything. Niner puts "shutup legs" on their top tube for a reason. They want you to keep going!


Agreed. Mike needs to stop watching videos and go ride some bikes.


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Harold said:


> I strongly prefer leading with my my left foot for power moves. I absolutely would backpedal more than 3/4 of a turn to get my left pedal in exactly the right spot it needs to be in not only to give me the power I need, but also so that I can clear whatever is underneath me. And I absolutely do. Pisgah is in my backyard. There's chunk galore. There's occasion where I'm in 30x46 and I'm maxing out my available power, the climbs are so long and steep. And technical. So I ratchet for the above stated reasons. Dropping chain when I backpedal is non-negotiable. When I set up my drivetrain, I make sure that my bike will backpedal several rotations cleanly. I didn't have to specifically do anything to prevent backpedal problems until I put 11spd on. But I dealt with the situation and stopped the problem.


I can't say I have ever encountered "problems" that I have been aware of. However, yeah, there are plenty of areas around where you have logs, rocks, or other obstacles that require low speed technical prowess. I to am a "left leading" person. If I am leading left foot, and having to punch the pedals to go over, it happens where by the time everything is cleaned (and now immediately into the next obstacle requiring my left leading foot)I need to get the pedals in the proper position. The only way that's happening is a backpedal. If that chain falters off the cogs, you lose the drive which is NEEDED to clear it. 
You can't just go faster, as it's low gear, low speed.


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

The shimano 1x11 issues are known. I won't argue that. Even in the video there are no shown SRAM issues unless the drivetrain is poorly setup or he is rotating multiple high speed rotations. Just eyeballing, his b screw adjustment looks too tight for SRAM. He claims he CAN have issues. User error IMHO. Slightly tweaked frames and hangers, etc.

About GX, and I'm not here to deter anyone from GX. Yeah, the bends I encountered were coming from a combination of shifting UP under load for an uphill sprint and the fact that I wear out some freehub bearings, the cassette twists and bad things happen. But the CNCed versions don't have gaps between the pins and are well braced vs the 6 affordable stamped/pinned 1175 GX cassettes I have run which have a brace every other tooth. Guess which tooth bends? One 1150 cassette I ran I ripped two entire sections out of the ring. Its always only the same two rings that have the thinnest section. I've never once bent a trusty shimano XT 10s. Those cassettes are super stout and reliable.









28 x 10-42 is lighter and great if it is what comes on the bike. Eagle should not be a deal breaker. That gives you basically the gearing of an OeM eagle granny and the top end of a shimano 11s.

Oh, and I still know what it's like to not be a marathon/XC racer. I remember what hills were like and what I did on my first 26er 34 pound norco hardtail. I climbed the same Hill of life I try to clean now without dabbing and walking. I only tell people what I wish someone would have told me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Harold said:


> I strongly prefer leading with my my left foot for power moves. I absolutely would backpedal more than 3/4 of a turn to get my left pedal in exactly the right spot it needs to be in not only to give me the power I need, but also so that I can clear whatever is underneath me. And I absolutely do. Pisgah is in my backyard. There's chunk galore. There's occasion where I'm in 30x46 and I'm maxing out my available power, the climbs are so long and steep. And technical. So I ratchet for the above stated reasons. Dropping chain when I backpedal is non-negotiable. When I set up my drivetrain, I make sure that my bike will backpedal several rotations cleanly. I didn't have to specifically do anything to prevent backpedal problems until I put 11spd on. But I dealt with the situation and stopped the


I don't need to have a pissing match with you about who has chunky trails in our backyard.
Can you help me with the math here? You are making a full turn backwards to setup your pedals? Why wouldn't you just leave them where they are or make an 1/8 rotation forward?

I see people spinning backwards because they don't know what they are doing, or people just messing around with their freewheel like a noisemaker. I have I9s, so I am may do this occasionally to softly get the attention of pedestrians or dogs. But I wouldn't do it if I had a drivetrain issue.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

FJSnoozer said:


> I don't need to have a pissing match with you about who has chunky trails in our backyard.
> Can you help me with the math here? You are making a full turn backwards to setup your pedals? Why wouldn't you just leave them where they are or make an 1/8 rotation forward?
> 
> I see people spinning backwards because they don't know what they are doing, or people just messing around with their freewheel like a noisemaker. I have I9s, so I am may do this occasionally to softly get the attention of pedestrians or dogs. But I wouldn't do it if I had a drivetrain issue.
> ...


If pedal clearance is a problem, yes, I might. Sure, it is rare, but it is a thing. Dismissing it entirely is just as ridiculous as blaming you for bending cassette teeth. Which you apparently didn't get.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

The videos are blah, 
Each person rides differently and will run different setups for their riding and their area. 

As said. I mainly stick to my SS and call it a day. 

OP should just go find some bikes, ride them or demo them on a trail. see what he likes and go from there. The parts can be changed for whatever you want that fits you. 

Knowing what you goal is with riding would help narrow down some bike brands/models.


----------



## dmcmahan (Sep 13, 2017)

I just started and picked up a 2017 Giant Stance 2. Very pleased with it so far.


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

FJSnoozer said:


> 1. That video is pretty bogus, and I wish I hadn't given him a view and my youtube dollars.
> -Can someone explain any reason why you would backpedal more than 3/4 of a turn to set up a technical power move
> -who is putting out 5-600 watts in their 42?
> - I have never had any of these issues, my bikes are set up properly, many bikes, and over 10K miles on 1x10 and 1x11
> ...


I felt like I was climbing with decent form as I am a mid foot pedaled, leaning forward to keep the front tire down.

I was standing, but I'm sure that my technique will get better with time along with the feel of a full sus mtb squish adaptation.

That's funny that Niner prints that on the bike! I didn't know they did that haha.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## lmike6453 (Sep 14, 2017)

Harold said:


> The Cutthroat, as a commuter, lacks utility. It's a fine bike, for what it was built for. It was built to be fast on gravel roads and fairly easy singletrack. It's meant to handle a fairly light load of ultralight backpacking/bikepacking gear in soft bags only. Speed is not a primary purpose of a commuter bike. Some commuter bikes focus a little more on speed capability than others, but utility is the primary function of a commuter bike. Commuting is not a place for dainty, overly precise high tech. Commuter bikes, more than most, get beat on and neglected. They need to be reliable EVERY DAY with no downtime. Even if you don't NEED to lock it up outside all the time, that should still be a consideration. You're likely to encounter situations where that will be necessary. A carbon bike locked to a rack might as well have a spotlight on it,, a theme song, balloons, and a searchlight to boot. It's going to attract attention, and not the kind you want. A commuter bike needs to blend in and disappear in the crowd. Beyond being carbon, the Cutthroat is a mountain bike with funny-looking handlebars. That's not going to reduce the amount of attention it gets.
> 
> I have never put my Vaya on a scale. That bike is a tank. It's built to handle a load and be comfortable in the process. I've ridden it in centuries and several other long day rides. No, it's not as fast as a 16lb speed machine. But honestly, the Cutthroat won't be that much faster than my Vaya given equal engines. It is more off-road capable. But we're talking riding a bike to work and around town, here. Even my Vaya is pretty fancy for that kind of bike. A ton of regular commuters wouldn't touch anything even close to that nice. They'll fix up and old mtb frame or an old steel or aluminum road bike. Something equally capable of handling a rack and fenders, but with even less cash outlay than my bike, and with far more years and "character" so it blends in even better. Even my bike is a bit on the flashy side.
> 
> ...


Thank you for talking me off the ledge about the Cutthroat as the commuter bike and helping me understand! Honestly you probably saved me thousands of dollars of regret.

I didn't know that I can go demo bikes on the trail. You guys are right, I need to go do that. I'm going to try to call LBS to see if they can let me test ride something in my area and will report back.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

lmike6453 said:


> Thank you for talking me off the ledge about the Cutthroat as the commuter bike and helping me understand! Honestly you probably saved me thousands of dollars of regret.
> 
> I didn't know that I can go demo bikes on the trail. You guys are right, I need to go do that. I'm going to try to call LBS to see if they can let me test ride something in my area and will report back.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


 Not all shops will let you do that. Some will...it's called a rental, usually. Fortunately, most manufacturers tour the country with demo fleets you can ride on trails. You may have to hunt down demo schedules, but the info is out there. Pro tip: attend a major bike festival and bang out demo rides from many manufacturers on the exact same trails on the same day or weekend.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

For the Cassette/RD combo I would go e-thirteen 9-46 11sp with a Sram Red long cage RD with an extender like this one.

lightest high range setup you can possibly have, and is higher range than the Eagle.


----------

