# PSA: Carbon wheels melt in exhaust flow!



## Hocky (Jan 26, 2011)

PSA: Carbon wheels melt in exhaust flow. Do not put your bike on a rack anywhere near the flow of your exhaust or it will melt the wheels on a longer drive. This is something that I already knew. In fact, I bought a 1UpUSA bike rack because it elevates my wheels a fair amount higher than my exhaust. I have used this set up on a few different cars and never really had trouble until last night, apparently. I found both of my tires flat and Enve wheels melted this morning. Quite frustrating to say the least, especially being that it is not in direct exhaust flow, but to be fair my car has a very significantly higher exhaust volume and temperature than 99.9% of cars and I think that I brought this on myself because of that. I plan to buy another set of Enve's, but I'll use my slightly more pedestrian car only with the 1Up rack going forward for mtb transport. :-(


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2016)

:yikes: thats a sad photo right there.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

major bummer! let me guess, turbo-charged car?


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2016)

*OneSpeed* said:


> major bummer! let me guess, turbo-charged car?


don't you mean a hair dryer??


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

What the hell are you driving?


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

watermonkey said:


> What the hell are you driving?


flamethrower on wheels


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## comptiger5000 (Jun 11, 2007)

That's definitely something for me to pay attention to if I get a different rack at some point. The exhaust on my Jeep gets damn hot so even tire damage might become a concern depending on how the bike sits. 

Not an issue with my current top-tube hanging rack though, as the bike can sit with one wheel up a good bit (on the exhaust side) making it a non-issue.


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## Stopbreakindown (Jun 27, 2011)

Subaru WRX STI?


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## Hocky (Jan 26, 2011)

Stopbreakindown said:


> Subaru WRX STI?


No, the wrx is my more pedestrian car that I will use going forward. . Hah. It is Camaro that makes something like 800hp on the set up I was on last night, but it has fuel flow more like a 1000-1100 horsepower car because it is a blower car on e85.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2016)

Hocky said:


> No, the wrx is my more pedestrian car that I will use going forward. . Hah. It is Camaro that makes something like 800hp on the set up I was on last night, but it has fuel flow more like a 1000-1100 horsepower car because it is a blower car on e85.


and this had a bike rack mounted??


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Live and learn, I guess. Sorry to hear that.

So is it unrideable?

I'm surprised the tire suffered no damage while the rim did.

-F


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Sorry man, major bummer. 

You should re-route to dual side-mount cat-backs, no muffler!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Been quite a while since one of those has been posted. An exhaust turnout perhaps?


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## Tinstigator (Jun 28, 2016)

Wack the wheels in a chest freezer and ride on...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Very sad photo.

Just another concern for rear mounted racks. You not only have to worry about someone texting and rear ending you. But you also have to stop every 10 miles and let things cool down.


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## Hocky (Jan 26, 2011)

Fleas said:


> Live and learn, I guess. Sorry to hear that.
> 
> So is it unrideable?
> 
> ...


Definitely not ride-able. I can feel the carbon deliminated on both wheels. Even if they could hold air, they certainly would be unsafe.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Very sad photo.
> 
> Just another concern for rear mounted racks. You not only have to worry about someone texting and rear ending you. But you also have to stop every 10 miles and let things cool down.


It depends on how your exhaust is routed. Mine goes off to the side and it's not a problem. A roof rack kills mileage and is a real PITA to load on a 4x4 truck.

I melted a tire with my old Honda that had the exhaust going out the back though.


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow. MUCH more expensive lesson than when we overheated the tube and exploded it on my buddy's BMX bike back in the day.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Hocky said:


> No, the wrx is my more pedestrian car that I will use going forward. . Hah. It is Camaro that makes something like 800hp on the set up I was on last night, but it has fuel flow more like a 1000-1100 horsepower car because it is a blower car on e85.


Sounds like a real sweet marshmallow roaster you got there. Or maybe cook up some Oscar Meyers. An E85 hot dog and a cold beer would hit the spot about now!


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## -Todd- (Jun 13, 2011)

No way to fab a heat shield of sorts that attaches to the rack? I'd look at some kind of baffle or deflector that would divert the exhaust...

Sorry to see that kind of carnage, it sucks when the learning curve slaps you in the head like that...


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

My brother has a MazdaSpeed 6, and he has a Kuat rack on it. His exhaust melted his one strap.

I told him about this, but he seems to think his is sitting up high enough when transporting. Hopefully so!


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## Hocky (Jan 26, 2011)

I just pulled the tires off of my wheels - I bet that they would still be fine to ride, still feel plenty strong you can just feel layers that are delaminated. I know I could have gambled vs buying them again, but is it worth potential serious injury over another $3k? Probably not. Another set are on the way, hopefully they arrive sooner than later.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hocky said:


> I just pulled the tires off of my wheels - I bet that they would still be fine to ride, still feel plenty strong you can just feel layers that are delaminated. I know I could have gambled vs buying them again, but is it worth potential serious injury over another $3k? Probably not. Another set are on the way, hopefully they arrive sooner than later.


So now you've got $6K invested in your wheels. :shocked:


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Welcome to what, 2010?

How do people not know this?


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

There was a discussion about this a few years ago. 

Perhaps it should be a permanently posted sticky?


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Hocky said:


> No, the wrx is my more pedestrian car that I will use going forward. . Hah. It is Camaro that makes something like 800hp on the set up I was on last night, but it has fuel flow more like a 1000-1100 horsepower car because it is a blower car on e85.





Hocky said:


> I just pulled the tires off of my wheels - I bet that they would still be fine to ride, still feel plenty strong you can just feel layers that are delaminated. I know I could have gambled vs buying them again, but is it worth potential serious injury over another $3k? Probably not. Another set are on the way, hopefully they arrive sooner than later.


Good grief....


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

And tires melt/burn too!


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hawg said:


> There was a discussion about this a few years ago.
> 
> Perhaps it should be a permanently posted sticky?


Then that would open the door for every problem known to mountain biking. We would have sticky threads for 6 pages before we got to the current topics.


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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

I just saw a video about this a few days ago:


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Interesting that the tyre is intact. 

I've seen an exhaust destroy a tyre and tube but they were hanging right in front of it. In tatters by the end of play.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Hocky said:


> I just pulled the tires off of my wheels - I bet that they would still be fine to ride, still feel plenty strong you can just feel layers that are delaminated. I know I could have gambled vs buying them again, but is it worth potential serious injury over another $3k? Probably not. Another set are on the way, hopefully they arrive sooner than later.


Nope. They're not fine to ride. Delaminated carbon is seriously compromised and is nowhere near strong enough for anything structural anymore. I doubt I'd even risk a DIY repair on them. A carbon repair shop probably wouldn't touch 'em.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Jet fuel (and car exhaust) doesn't melt carbon fiber! Its melting point is 3500˚C! This is some inside job, in which the OP is playing some part for a group that wants to wage war on carbon wheels!

 *satire* (yes, I know the resin melts at a much lower temp)


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Varaxis said:


> *satire* (yes, I know the resin melts at a much lower temp)


sneaky bastige


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Hocky said:


> No, the wrx is my more pedestrian car that I will use going forward. . Hah. It is Camaro that makes something like 800hp on the set up I was on last night, but it has fuel flow more like a 1000-1100 horsepower car because it is a blower car on e85.


Let's see a pic of that monster.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

I have a 2016 Subaru STI with an SPT exhaust and use a 1UP rack. I'm going to guess that the bottom of the tray sits about 8" above the exhaust tips, and several inches back too. I've driven a couple hundred miles before with the bike out there, including across the desert, and had no issues (I checked too). The metal above the exhaust tips was no warmer than the center of the rack.

Edit: Not saying this doesn't happen . . . just pointing out that its likely a function of specific vehicle, rack, and rim factors.


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## Danimal (Nov 18, 2004)

007 said:


> I have a 2016 Subaru STI with an SPT exhaust and use a 1UP rack. ...[snip]... The metal above the exhaust tips was no warmer than the center of the rack.
> 
> Edit: Not saying this doesn't happen . . . just pointing out that its likely a function of specific vehicle, rack, and rim factors.


Agreed; my all-powerful 1.5L Honda Fit is getting my tire and rim warm to the touch after a 30 minute flat to hilly drive at 50-60 mph. The dimensions of tire relative to tailpipe seem similar to your WRX.

Dan


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## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

Hocky said:


> I just pulled the tires off of my wheels - I bet that they would still be fine to ride, still feel plenty strong you can just feel layers that are delaminated. I know I could have gambled vs buying them again, but is it worth potential serious injury over another $3k? Probably not. Another set are on the way, hopefully they arrive sooner than later.


So your replacing the entire wheel set & not just the rims? Was there something wrong with the hubs & spokes?


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Hocky said:


> I just pulled the tires off of my wheels - I bet that they would still be fine to ride, still feel plenty strong you can just feel layers that are delaminated. I know I could have gambled vs buying them again, but is it worth potential serious injury over another $3k? Probably not. Another set are on the way, hopefully they arrive sooner than later.


ENVE has a crash replacement program, have you called to see how they may be willing to help out?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

brentos said:


> ENVE has a crash replacement program, have you called to see how they may be willing to help out?


What's he going to tell them? He was riding and crashed into a campfire.


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## Whiteroom_Guardian (Jan 13, 2013)

1100hp Camaro with a bike rack?!?!

When did Kenny Powers get into MTB?

Op we need pics asap.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Whiteroom_Guardian said:


> 1100hp Camaro with a bike rack?!?!
> 
> When did Kenny Powers get into MTB?
> 
> ...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Whiteroom_Guardian said:


> 1100hp Camaro with a bike rack?!?!
> 
> When did Kenny Powers get into MTB?
> 
> ...


What's the big deal?

I had a receiver on my Camaro SS.

I didn't manage to melt any tires or rims, but I know people that did on other cars.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Jayem said:


> What's the big deal?
> 
> I had a receiver on my Camaro SS.
> 
> ...


yoww!


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## fatcat (Mar 11, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> What's he going to tell them? He was riding and crashed into a campfire.


 LOL, right.Theyre going to say its negligence nothing to do with crash replacement. That Camaro sounds pretty good but I like Porsches.

LIMITATIONS OF WARRANTY:

Warranty does not cover parts that have been incorrectly installed, serviced, or otherwise adjusted respective to the ENVE installation manual.
Warranty does not cover damage sustained to parts used for applications beyond the scope of their intended design (ex. Using All Mountain rims for Downhill).
ENVE Grey brake pads are provided with ENVE rims and complete wheelsets. Failure to use the ENVE Grey brake pads will void the warranty.
Warranty does not apply to damage related to a crash, impact, unauthorized alteration, abuse of product, and normal wear and tear. See ENVE's Lifetime Crash Replacement. Normal wear and tear refers to:

Worn out braking surface
Worn or damaged brake pads
Damaged spokes from crashing or poor shifting adjustment
Nipple corrosion
Superficial chips and scratches on rim or components
Being on a bike rack behind a 600hp car's exhaust


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

Sea-Sucker Rack, FTW.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

....


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

So...if the exhaust can melt carbon fibre, what is the back bumper made of?


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## pop_martian (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm trying to reconcile how it can destroy the rim but the rubber of the tire looks pristine. That tire should have caught fire if your rim looks like that.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

pop_martian said:


> I'm trying to reconcile how it can destroy the rim but the rubber of the tire looks pristine. That tire should have caught fire if your rim looks like that.


Thats what I was thinking. Koenigsegg uses carbon rims on their super cars right next to the carbon brakes. We can't get bicycle rims that don't melt from an exhaust system? Sure its 1,000hp but that exhaust shouldn't be anywhere near what a car rim would be exposed to when bolted to a 250mph car's brake rotor.

I'm wondering what kind of resin they use. I don't think I'll be buying any ENVE rims unless theres a good reason they use it.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> So...if the exhaust can melt carbon fibre, what is the back bumper made of?


Plastic impregnated with carbon bits?


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Mr Pig said:


> So...if the exhaust can melt carbon fibre, what is the back bumper made of?


My current and previous car had aluminum exhaust finishers, as does the Camaro pictured here.

I will also add that both instances that I have heard where CF rims melted were from cars that were pushing a LOT of HP. For your average car, this is a non-issue.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

007 said:


> My current and previous car had aluminum exhaust finishers, as does the Camaro pictured here.


I see. If only there was some way to incorporate aluminium in the rims of bike wheels...


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Koenigsegg One:1. 1350hp on carbon wheels they manufacture in house.
Mustang 350R. 525hp. Carbon wheels made in Australia.
No melting.


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## Danimal (Nov 18, 2004)

eb1888 said:


> Koenigsegg One:1. 1350hp on carbon wheels they manufacture in house.
> Mustang 350R. 525hp. Carbon wheels made in Australia.
> No melting.


Also not carried 18" from the exhaust exit behind the car.

Dan


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Danimal said:


> Also not carried 18" from the exhaust exit behind the car.
> 
> Dan


Those carbon rims are bolted directly to brake rotors that can far exceed exhaust temperatures. I'm sure glowing red brake rotors are hotter than the exhaust tips of a high HP car.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Fajita Dave said:


> Those carbon rims are bolted directly to brake rotors that can far exceed exhaust temperatures. I'm sure glowing red brake rotors are hotter than the exhaust tips of a high HP car.


Convection != conduction


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Procter said:


> Convection != conduction


Yeah there is a difference between convection and conduction. You'd still think the rim would melt where it contacts the brake rotor.

I decided to do some research on the interwebs. It seems like polyester resin is very commonly used to bond carbon fiber. Which has a melting point of 200 degrees F. Rubber on the other hand can have a melting point of 300+ degrees which explains why the tire wasn't damaged.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Fajita Dave said:


> Yeah there is a difference between convection and conduction. You'd still think the rim would melt where it contacts the brake rotor.
> 
> I decided to do some research on the interwebs. It seems like polyester resin is very commonly used to bond carbon fiber. Which has a melting point of 200 degrees F. Rubber on the other hand can have a melting point of 300+ degrees which explains why the tire wasn't damaged.


Your rims aren't exactly bolted to your rotors. Heat must conduct through the 'spokes' of the rotor (small surface area, lots of heat loss to convection), then through to rotor bolts (which have imperfect contact to hub), in parallel there is direct rotor to hub contact but over minimal surface area,... then through spokes which also have minimal contact surfaces to hub (and, for J bend spokes, even poorer contact interface), then down the spokes which are long, thin, and lose lots of heat to convection, then through threads which are imperfect contacts to nipples... Then through nipples to rims, again a small surface area. I doubt there is any measurable heat increase at the rim at all.


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

Like fajita Dave said, the actual carbon fibers in those rims are fine. He melted the resin holding them together. You could probably ruin a CF rim holding a hair dryer on it for a while. Excessive heat isn't exactly a design parameter for bicycle rims so a high temp resin isn't needed.


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## Hocky (Jan 26, 2011)

burtronix said:


> So your replacing the entire wheel set & not just the rims? Was there something wrong with the hubs & spokes?


Nothing wrong with the hubs, but spokes shouldn't be reused. I'd rather not deal with having everything rebuilt.



brentos said:


> ENVE has a crash replacement program, have you called to see how they may be willing to help out?


Enve did offer me crash replacement, but rim cost was still $1100 plus spokes and rebuild, I would've ended up in the $1500+ range, anyway. I will sell off my existing stuff and the pricing ends up not being too much different.

Either way, new 60/40s are on and running. I went with the DT's this time and threw in the 54t star ratchet set. They're a bit lighter and engagement is similar - I like them so far. They're wider than my other set and there is a noticeable difference in the ride due to that change.


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## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

Hocky said:


> Nothing wrong with the hubs, but spokes shouldn't be reused.


What's wrong with the spokes?


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## Hocky (Jan 26, 2011)

I've never heard of a single wheel builder recommending to reuse spokes, especially not very light ones like that.


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## Scottie5150 (Mar 10, 2004)

Hocky said:


> I've never heard of a single wheel builder recommending to reuse spokes, especially not very light ones like that.


I concur.

Sent from the UnderWorld via Nexus 6P ?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Hocky said:


> I've never heard of a single wheel builder recommending to reuse spokes, especially not very light ones like that.


Why not?? I've reused them before, didn't seem to cause any problems.


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## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> Why not?? I've reused them before, didn't seem to cause any problems.


I've reused road bike spokes. Don't know why you couldn't on carbon mtb rims. It's not like you tacoed the wheel & over-stressed them.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I like this thought process. Spend big bucks on carbon wheels yet recycle and re-use spokes.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I like this thought process. Spend big bucks on carbon wheels yet recycle and re-use spokes.


What difference does the price make, what's the point in throwing away perfectly good parts?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mr Pig said:


> What difference does the price make, what's the point in throwing away perfectly good parts?


I just find it ironic. Pay big bucks on what the wheels are made from yet be cheap and re-use spokes. That is all nothing more to see here.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

This is why I only buy high tg carbon.


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## 410sprint (Oct 19, 2012)

Hocky said:


> No, the wrx is my more pedestrian car that I will use going forward. . Hah. It is Camaro that makes something like 800hp on the set up I was on last night, but it has fuel flow more like a 1000-1100 horsepower car because it is a blower car on e85.


Interested to see pictures of this car and its exhaust system.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

nvphatty said:


> and this had a bike rack mounted??


And this has a receiver hitch mounted??

FTFY


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## comptiger5000 (Jun 11, 2007)

Flamingtaco said:


> And this has a receiver hitch mounted??
> 
> FTFY


In my mind it would be more like a frame stiffener that happens to have a receiver on it.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

410sprint said:


> Interested to see pictures of this car and its exhaust system.


Same here, we've been waiting to see this fire breathing monster since this thread started.


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## Hocky (Jan 26, 2011)

Nothing terribly exciting to see - if you have seen a stock black ZL1, that is basically what mine looks like except with different wheels and a trailer hitch. hah


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hocky said:


> Nothing terribly exciting to see - if you have seen a stock black ZL1, that is basically what mine looks like except with different wheels and a trailer hitch. hah


I'll help out with that. 

Sweet ride btw.

And yours is pumped up from 580HP to 800HP? The newer one with 640HP hasn't been released yet, has it?

I can imagine a future sticker placed on the drivers side dash.
*WARNING:* Chevrolet is not responsible for melting bicycle carbon fiber wheels while operating this vehicle.


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## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

I have mine mounted on the roof. I can't afford carbon rims, but nice to know my aluminum ones are safe. Besides a little HP and a bike on the roof is sometimes fun...

After a ride with my buddies...


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## 410sprint (Oct 19, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> And yours is pumped up from 580HP to 700HP?


He said the car makes "something like 800hp"..


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

410sprint said:


> He said the car makes "something like 800hp"..


Oh, you're right. I'll go edit that.



Hocky said:


> No, the wrx is my more pedestrian car that I will use going forward. . Hah. It is Camaro that makes something like 800hp on the set up I was on last night, but it has fuel flow more like a 1000-1100 horsepower car because it is a blower car on e85.


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## Hocky (Jan 26, 2011)

Yea it is in that ballpark on boost and another couple hundred on nitrous. The new ZL1 has not hit the streets yet, but it should be a pretty stellar car. I don't think I will be going that direction, though. If I am moving on, I need to decide to live without the back seats and get into a ZR1 or a c7z.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

slowride454 said:


> I have mine mounted on the roof. I can't afford carbon rims, but nice to know my aluminum ones are safe. Besides a little HP and a bike on the roof is sometimes fun...
> 
> After a ride with my buddies...


I'm not sure how the bike on the roof is "fun". When driving aggressively I'd rather have the bike on a more secure mount than the roof. Buddy in a VW had the rack with 3 bikes ripped off a few months ago in high winds on the highway. Although both types of mounts affect handling obviously, I think having a little more rear weight bias is usually better than a higher CG and more body lean. Just my opinion.

Sweet car. I need to find something like that again that actually handles well, like my SS did. I modded my BMW suspension to help, but the handling on the Camaro SS was so far and above what i have now, it leaves me wanting something like that again, so my next car has to handle well, which is something that has gone down the toilet at BMW as of late.


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## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

Now that Pontiac is gone the only way to get a 4 door Camaro is the Chevy SS. The latest generation of Chargers handle pretty well also. The Hellcat engine sounds wicked even in production trim. I'm sure it will be downright outrageous with headers and good exhaust.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

slowride454 said:


> Now that Pontiac is gone the only way to get a 4 door Camaro is the Chevy SS. The latest generation of Chargers handle pretty well also. The Hellcat engine sounds wicked even in production trim. I'm sure it will be downright outrageous with headers and good exhaust.


A buddy of mine just bought a Scat Pack Challenger. He could have easily paid cash for a Hellcat but he opted for the Scat Pack with the 485HP version. Which can easily be pumped up to Hellcat HP ratings for a fraction of the cost of a Hellcat.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

slowride454 said:


> Now that Pontiac is gone the only way to get a 4 door Camaro is the Chevy SS. The latest generation of Chargers handle pretty well also. The Hellcat engine sounds wicked even in production trim. I'm sure it will be downright outrageous with headers and good exhaust.


I dunno about that, camaro SS was 3850 for manual, not light but not some 4000lb+ bloated monster either, and if you did get the SS with the auto-you are doing it wrong , SS sedan is a bit more, but charger is a lot more, I have a hard time believing the charger can handle nimble/hold the road during fast inputs. ZL1 ain't light, but it has the engineering to back it up, at least a lot more than the charger, but maybe I'm too biased. I came to enjoy handling a lot more than just punching it at stoplights, which was what my subaru was good at (awd+turbo=crazy initial acceleration).


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