# Frame Building Forum FAQ



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Frame Building Forum FAQ - READ ME FIRST!*

Welcome to the new (as of October '07) MTBR Frame Building forum. I imagine we'll be getting a lot of similar questions here, so I'm in the process of doing an FAQ.

A few notes:
-All standard MTBR rules apply for dealers/manufacturers/bike industry insiders. A complete guideline can be found at http://www.mtbr.com/messageboard/postingguidelines.shtml#manuguidelines
-All the other usual forum rules apply too. Let's keep things friendly and constructive - this is NOT the place to come to bash someone or some company (for whatever reason). Constructive criticism and questions are always ok, of course.

I'll add questions and answers that come up in the forum to the FAQ when appropriate.

*FAQs follow, threaded for your convenience* Note that the thread is locked - if you think you have something that should be added (either a question, answer, link, or what have you) please post it to the board and a mod will move it to the FAQ if appropriate.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*-How can I get started in framebuilding?*

The first step is to read all 35 parts of Jay's great WWT project in which he exhaustively documents building his first frame (he's since built many more) from start to finish, including all the hiccups and mistakes. You can find the first post here:
https://www.google.com/#q=site:forums.mtbr.com+wwtp001

To find posts 2-35, just change the "1" (ie "wwtp002" will turn up the second thread)

If you don't read these, you will ask stupid questions that have already been answered and people will think less of you. If you do read them, you'll learn a ton and impress everyone by starting out with a solid background in a whole lot of what goes into building a frame. So read them all. Too lazy? Too bad, you're also probably too lazy to build a bike...

More:

You can go the self-taught route, or you can enroll at one of many framebuilding clinics/schools around the US. Here's a good thread with a semi-comprehensive list:
Frame Building Clinics......

You may also want to check out some of the following sites:
http://henryjames.com/order.html Read the "tech info" link. This has a lot of great basic information about frame tubing.
Lunarpages Contact Support Page - many pro and amateur framebuilders hang out here. (note, now closed)
www.phred.org Home Page (click on the "framebuilders" link to search the archive).
Little Fish Bicycles - A good intro to lugged framebuilding with pictures.
How Frames Are Made | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES - "How frames are made" by tons of different builders! A goldmine of info.
Many professional framebuilders have extensive websites and blogs that have lots of useful ideas and info as well.

*In many cases, the answers to even fairly obscure questions can be found on one or more of these sites. Posting questions without having done at least some background reading of the various archives is disrespectful to the others on the forum - please do your best to do the legwork before posting!*


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*-Can I find an apprenticeship somewhere?*

Realistically, no. Finding such a position will require that you make lots of personal connections within the cycling industry and/or get very lucky. Very few framebuilders have the time or inclination to deal with an apprentice. Posting "want ad" style requests for apprenticeships on this forum or elsewhere is extremely unlikely to work.

If you really want to cut your teeth working in the US cycling industry, look at finding a position at a small manufacturer (ie, one with multiple employees) where you can spend some time sweeping the floors and answering the phone before they let you out on the shop floor.

Remember that building frames for yourself and perhaps your friends doesn't mean becoming a full-time professional. There are many hobby builders who enjoy framebuilding as a hobby and make their money (and usually a lot more of it) at a "regular" job.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*-Where can I purchase framebuilding supplies/tubing?*

See the master supplier list here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=595808

Yeah, ok, but I'm dead broke - what's the cheapest way to get basic framebuilding materials?

Go dig through the trash! 70s vintage lugged road frames are, quite literally, free for the taking at landfills, garage sales, and recycling centers everywhere. They are great to cut apart and inspect, then attempt to braze back together. Of course, you'll still need some basic brazing supplies, but you can be set up to build frames for under $500 if you're thrifty and smart about it.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*-What frame material is "best"?*

I don't have an answer for you on this one, but please take the time to do some searching on the various sites mentioned above. You'll find that this subject has been argued to death (on various MTBR forums as well). If you *really* think you have something new to say, please feel free to post. Suffice to say that most reasonable people agree that pretty much all the materials in common use (steel, titanium, aluminum, carbon fiber) are great for building really fun, safe bikes.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*What about frame geometry? How does it affect handling and fit?*

First, remember that bicycle handling is pretty subjectively experienced - what may seem "twitchy" to you might feel nice and stable to another rider who has different preferences, expectations, or fit issues. Arguing about whether the geometry of a particular bike is "good" for a given purpose or not is a bit like trying to convince someone that vanilla is "better" than chocolate - it's a judgement call to a significant extent. The beauty of custom frames is that, if you understand some basics, you can predict some things about how the bike will probably feel.

First, check out some vocabulary: Anvil Bikeworks: Professional tools for the professional bike builder

The most important number to consider when comparing mountain bikes is usually trail (read that description above again, or check out Bicycle Steering Geometry for a little bit easier explanation) - which you can think of as a lever that tries to keep the front wheel straight as the bike moves along. The longer the lever (the greater the trail number), the more stable the bike will be at high speed, but the less stable it will be at low speed (low speed instability is often referred to as wheel flop).

Of course, all those other variables come into play as well. And there are a LOT of them. A good design will take all of them into consideration, as well as the proportions of the rider, to arrive at a bike that fits and handles in the desired manner.

In general, when discussing any particular frame geometry variable, keep in mind that it's only one of many - every variable contributes to the overall handling of the bike, and discussing one in isolation is usually not that productive.

That said, here's a good thread about an oft-neglected variable: Front Center.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*What are the basic tools I'll need to start building frames?*

If you're strapped for cash, here's a list of the very most basic stuff you'll need to build a fillet brazed or lugged frame. If you're careful and precise enough, you can do a great job with just this stuff. If you're in a hurry and sloppy, expect to get something not too straight and not too nice. Like anything, you get out of framebuilding what you put in, and there's no free lunch.

Item 1: Oxy/Acetylene tanks, regulator, and torch. Go to your local welding supply for these. Keep in mind that if you've never worked with acetylene, it's REALLY DANGEROUS. You should take a basic welding/brazing safety course, or at the very least, read up about handling these very flammable gases online. Expect to spend about $500. If you don't have a well-ventilated area available, consider purchasing a mask and filters to protect your lungs - the fumes from brazing are very hazardous.

Item 2: Set of half-round fine tooth files, hacksaw. 10", 12", and 14" will allow you to cut almost any miter you might need to on a bike frame, because the radius of the files matches up nicely to 1 1/8", 1 1/4", and 1 1/2" tubes. Remember to only file by pushing, if you're pulling the file back across the tube, you're just dulling the teeth. A hacksaw is good for roughly cutting out a big hunk of the material you need to remove, hence saving you time with your files.

Item 3: Low-fuming bronze (I recommend 1/8" rods, but smaller ones are usable as well) and All-State 1113 flux. There are lots of other options here, but these items are available at any welding supply and will work well for building bike frames. A pound of LFB will last you 3 or 4 frames.

Item 4: Lugs (if you want to build a lug bike) and tubes/dropouts/brazeons. See the "supplies" section of the FAQ for advice on where to get tubes.

Item 5: Rulers, tape measures, string, true/dished front and rear wheels. These will be your alignment tools. There are also lots of ways to make fixtures and jigs, but I'm going to assume that you'll do this bike without one to save money. It's easier to build a lugged bike without a fixture than a fillet brazed one, but either is possible with care and attention to detail.

Item 5.5: Simple drafting equipment. Read this link for more info on how to draw up a frame by hand: http://www.ivycycles.com/Tutorial.html

Item 6: Workspace. You'll want, at a minimum, a workbench and vise to hold your tubes. Basements are usually bad, at least for the actual brazing part of the process, because they don't have any ventilation.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*How can I add a disc mount to an existing non-disc frame or fork?*

Read this thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=359918

If you need to add a rear disc mount, follow the same instructions, but use a rear wheel (duh) and think about adding a strut between the chainstay and seatstay (see picture) to reinforce things. In this case, I've used a piece of an old disc rotor, but a small piece of tubing or even some 3/16" plate would work fine as well. It's easy to break the seatstay with a disc mount if you don't spread the load out a bit.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*What is "Friday Show and Tell"?*

I'm trying to restrart an old tradition from frameforum, in which anyone who has done a cool project posts about it (including pictures if possible) on Friday. It could be your first attempt at mitering a tube, or your latest polished stainless lug 953 wonderbike - doesn't matter, just something that you're proud of. Logically, most of us aren't working quite as hard as we could be on Friday, and we're in a good mood, and we've (hopefully) done a long week of good work, hopefully some of which is worthy of being posted. So post some of that cool stuff and share your expertise (or excitement, if you're still getting the expertise).

You're welcome to post anytime, of course. I just think the friday tradition is nice.

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*What if I want to start a framebuilding business?*

For some interesting discussion, see this thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=4252212#poststop


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Should I put gussets on my frame? If so, how?*

Most frames don't need them, but if you're curious about gussets, check out this thread.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*What about Lugs?*

So, want to build a mountain bike using lugs?

Check out this link for some good info:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=565904


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*How about raw/clearcoat only frame finishes?*

Discussed here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=560965

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*How should I protect my lungs? Do I need a respirator?*

Great discussion here:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=6489659#poststop


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*What are my seat tube options?*

Read this thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=616440

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Where can I get my bike painted/repainted?*

Dave Bohm has put together a great list of painters/powdercoaters:
http://bohemianbicyclepainting.wordp...painters-list/


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Can I use my MIG welder to make a bike frame?*

No.

Don't believe me? No problem. Go for it, and come back and post your success story. I'll be happy to eat crow.

But you won't be back, because you'll have blown big holes in your fancy frame tubing and made a big steel mess, not a bike. Save your money for an Oxygen/Acetylene or TIG setup and do things right the first time. You'll save yourself time, money, and heartache.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*I want to get started with TIG - where can I find advice?*

Read this thread, and follow links, there are lots of good tips for the beginning TIG welder:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=672822


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*How do I make a jig?*

If you're not buying a jig, and you don't want to build without one, Dr. Welby has done a great writeup on using 8020 extrusion to build your own:
http://www.instructables.com/id/The-simplest-bicycle-framebuilding-jig-I-could-com/


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*What is the "WWTP" thread?*

In 2008, I gave away a set of tubes to one lucky fellow who promised to document his build process as he constructed his first frame. Jay did an *awesome* job, and you can learn a lot by reading all about his (very well documented) experiences.

Here's a link to the first article in the series:
http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/wwtp002-front-half-478127.html

To find the rest, just go to the big "search" field at the top left/portion of the forum page, and search for "WWTP". They are in reverse chronological order in the search results, so you'll need to scroll down to find the earliest entries.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Can my broken _____ frame be repaired?*

First, any post with this type of question that does not include pictures will be immediately binned. Take some pictures or nobody can give you any useful advice.

Second: If your frame is steel or ti or carbon, yes, it can be fixed. Whether it's worth the money or not is a different question. If the frame is worth $500+ or has sentimental value, most problems are worth fixing. If not, scrap it.

If your frame is aluminum, throw it away and get another one. Here's a good thread on an aluminum repair (spoiler: it didn't work out).


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