# flat pedal fail- technique or equipment?



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I decided to give the flat pedal thing another go today. I am riding Giro Jacket sneakers and VP Vice pedals. I have used this combo a few times over the past year or so and always go back to my SPD-style pedals and shoes after one or two rides.

I cut short my ride on familiar neighborhood trails this morning because I felt so sketched out by my feet slipping off the pedals at inopportune times, usually while _clmbing_ and scrambling over rocks and roots. I would approach a short hill that I have flown up a million times and loose my footing after one or two jolts from objects on the trail and then have to fight to get my shoes back in a solid spot on the pedals. I felt a total lack of confidence on the bike and was not having fun because of that. I made an active effort to keep my heels low but still lost footing several times.

contributing factors:

riding "clipped in" for years, need to adapt technique
shoes are not sticky enough
pedals are not sticky enough
early morning ride- stuff was still wet from dew, trails slightly muddy
just added gears to my bike; I ususally ride singlespeed but I am giving gears a try. I might be trying to climb punchy, rocky uphills in too low a gear (lowest gear is 34-36 on my 29er HT). however, previous experiences riding SS have been similar.

what do I need to learn to love the flat pedal phenomenon?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Stickier shoes
Stickier pedals
Time riding with the above.

Actually, those shoes and pedals may be fine, you may just need to get used to it all.

I switched about six months ago after spds for about ten years. I would keep trying for more rides before deciding if flats are for you or not.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I can't comment on those shoes, but if they're not sticky enough, it's shoes and technique. If you had the technique down, those shoes would be fine I'd imagine.

The only way to get good on flats, and it's not that hard, is to commit to using them and learning how they work. What you learn will transfer straight over back to clipless as well. It's just like riding clipless for the first time, until you put the time in and it becomes automatic, you'll spaz out from time to time.


----------



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

I run the same pedals with 5-10s and get lots of grip!

My technique needs work, but this combo works really well. Got the 5-10s from their outlet for $59 I think.


----------



## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

Slipping off or BOUNCING off? Pins and rubber wont do anything if your feet are bouncing off. The bouncing problem is usually caused by the gear being too easy and preventing you from putting enough weight on the pedals. When I switched to flats I had to use harder gears since the granny gear would pop my feet off the pedals whenever things got bumpy.

I would guess the problem is technique and has nothing to do with shoes, just need to learn how to keep weight on the pedals while spinning easy gears. Its very difficult to spin your way up a rock garden on flats.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

"bouncing off" is probably more accurate. I have learned to rely on my pedals to literally hold my shoes in place when things get bouncy and will have to learn how to keep the weight on my pedals in that case. thank you for clarifying.


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

There's nothing wrong with the pedals. Shoes may not be the stickiest.

But it's mostly technique.

Truly clipless creates "laziness". Basically allows now having to learn or pay attention to proper techniques since your attached to the pedals.

I wear a pair of vans and was riding the same pedals on my precious bike. Worked rather well.

I will say that composite pedals seem to hold my feet better than alloy though. I'm rolling composite aka plastic pedals (still have full steel pins like others) now and my feet stay put a bit better. The pedals flex a bit more when bouncing around so seems that even less of a chance of a foot getting kicked off.

Also big technique matter if your not pedaling, DROP YOUR HEALS a bit.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

Totally different technique. And it takes some time. And likely you'll still get bounced off or caught off guard now and again.

Climbing is WAY harder with flats than with SPDs. Takes a lot of practice to really get the power. Practice standing up (that's my rec) and try to transfer that feeling to sitting and spinning. You can't spin wildly like with clipless, have to be smooth, smooth, smooth, well timed, and overall, it's not as efficient, so it takes a bit more grunt (no cheating by pulling up obviously).

On chunk you'll likely have issues too... learn to dip the heels and point the toes to keep contact with the pedals even if "weightless".

I can't comment for the gear, it might not be the best. I'm loving my Spank Spikes and 5.10's for flats. I've used some less aggressive pedals and it was a bit harder.

There aren't (IMO) a ton of advantages for flats. They are bulkier and get caught on stuff easier, they are less efficient, even getting on them with big spikes can be problematic - you have to place your foot just right and you can't wiggle it into place, they hurt when your leg hits them, you can't cheat and pull up the bike, and I think they are heavier. The only real advantage is the ease of putting a foot down. And maybe a simpler pedal (but increased strikes have proven to me to beat them up a bit more). But it's a different technique and it builds character


----------



## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

The biggest thing is learning to always keep a little pressure on the pedal no matter where it is in crank rotation. You gotta do even if the rear wheel suddenly slips and the crank rotates very quickly as a result. Without some pressure, there's nothing holding your foot on the pedal.

I rode exclusively clipless for going on 20 years. It was a steep learning curve switching to flats about 2 years ago. I much better at it, but still learning.


----------



## BykerMike (Aug 3, 2016)

You are not the first I've heard having a hard time with flats coming from clipless. They must really teach bad habits for it to be so difficult for so many riders. I've never used clipless myself but also never had any problems with flats. I would imagine over time it will become second nature, then at that point you can decide truly what is best for you.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

not to kick the hornet's nest, but is it possible that, if riding clipless "teaches bad habits," then so does riding a 29er, a plus bike, exotic lightweight materials, a dropper post, disc brakes, tubeless tires, or suspension in general? does carrying a 3 liter hydration pack teach us to rely on water?

every technology makes riding more efficient and comfortable in some way. I am surprised to see people with the most high-tech bikes moving "backward" to flat pedals. I am not saying it's wrong, just interesting to see how we learn to embrace some technology and methods and abandon others. I make no judgement either way of any of these things, it's just an observation.


----------



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

It all boils down to personal needs/preferences. Isn't this why most have different bikes for different experiences?


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Here's Fabien's video on technique.





Basically when you come to a rock etc. that could bounce you get off the seat. This puts weight on your pedals. Next lower your heels. Now when you go over the rock and the bike moves up the interference angle between the pins and the tread indentations in your shoes means the pedal has to be scraped out of your shoe. With your weight on them it's not likely. For non DH riding and speeds I prefer a shoe with deeper more open tread. Like a trailrunner or open tread running shoe. More negative depth to catch and you can use rounded stubby pin pedals that do not cut up your shins when you crash.

So my suggestion is try the low heels with some of the running shoes you've got in your closet already.


----------



## Strafer (Jun 7, 2004)

I wear Jacket mids, and used to run VP Vice pedals until recently.
At first I was like you, try for a ride or two then go back to clipless.
But I really wanted to adapt to flat pedals, so I started riding clipless more like flat pedals.
By that I mean I moved the cleats as far back as possible, and got even further back by dremeling the clip slits so my shoes sat on the pedal more like flats.
And I consciously kept my heels down and not pulling up, and and rode clipless like I was on flats.
After few weeks I switched to flats and had no problem adapting.


----------



## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

They aren't bad habits, they only are when you apply them to flats.

You may find, that when you master flats, you will use those techniques on SPDs.

It's a one way street - flat techniques work on SPDs, but SPD techniques don't work on flats. Some people call that bad technique, but really if you always ride SPDs, you'd never know.


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

How stiff are those Giros? I've got 4-5 pairs of Tevas and the ones I like best are the thin soled ones. The first pair I bought were really stiff and I couldn't tell where my feet were on the pedals, and that made me very nervous. After I got thin ones I could feel the pedals under my feet, which made me confident I wasn't on the edge of a pedal ready to slip off. 

I tried on a 5-10s and put it on a pedal and it stuck, I'd have to lift my foot off to reposition, didn't like that either so I sent them back. I like being able to move my feet around and prefer not being stuck to the pedals, so I don't need huge pins or sticky shoes. I guess it must be technique since flats are all I know and never seem to bounce off.


----------



## Strafer (Jun 7, 2004)

I also have a pair of 510 Impacts, and don't really feel any difference in stiffness of the soles, both are plenty stiff for me which I like.


----------



## Strafer (Jun 7, 2004)

And not really a problem, but the nice tread pattern on the bottom of Giro soles get quickly messed up by the pins on the pedals.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

the Jacket sneakers are firm but not board-stiff like my other shoes. they feel like old Etnies that I used for BMX in th it is doubtful that the additional grip of Five Ten shoes would help me much in this situation. I probably could have answered my own question by searching some basic flat-pedal technique, but I wanted to make sure I was not putting myself at a disadvantage with the wrong equipment.

I know technique is 99% of what I need, but I wonder if a convex-shape pedal would help a bit too. I bought the Vice pedals because they are so flat but I can feel the ball of my foot slipping on the middle of the pedal. I might try putting some skateboard grip tape in the middle like the old Fly Ruben BMX pedals:










maybe I would prefer a concave shaped pedal!


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Strafer said:


> And not really a problem, but the nice tread pattern on the bottom of Giro soles get quickly messed up by the pins on the pedals.


yeah, I was going to post some photos, but the tread on the shoe started getting torn up quickly.


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Mack, if you're interested in trying some different pedals to see if they're part of the issue, there's some good info on cheap pedals here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/components/what-best-flat-pedals-trail-1045950.html

I'm leaning towards the Nukeproof Neutrons that huckleberry hound recommended.


----------



## Strafer (Jun 7, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> I bought the Vice pedals because they are so flat but I can feel the ball of my foot slipping on the middle of the pedal


I think you need to try different position, with the ball of your foot further forward.
I never had that issue with my Giro/VP Vice combo, but my feet are further forward.


----------



## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> ...I felt so sketched out by my feet slipping off the pedals at inopportune times, usually while _clmbing_ and scrambling over rocks and roots. I would approach a short hill that I have flown up a million times and loose my footing after one or two jolts from objects on the trail and then have to fight to get my shoes back in a solid spot on the pedals...


If you have been climbing with clipless for years it will take time learn how to do that on flats. I have learned there are things I do with clipless that are much harder with flats. I put alot of bike "english" through pedals. This more pronouced when standing climbing technical sections of trail. Singlespeeding is worst since there are times you need to put every once of force in to the pedals so you don't stall. So you push down, pull up, scrap etc. what ever it takes. Flats you can't do all that stuff. So I learned that what I do naturally does not work with flats. I am not going to get into which is better/worse or one being a crutch or not, but it is different. So different that for me I just prefer to ride clipless. Flats to me are only good for when I ride with daughter in sandals. Other will disagree and that is fine. They are different and if you really want to use them you will have spend time learning how to use them.


----------



## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> not to kick the hornet's nest, but is it possible that, if riding clipless "teaches bad habits," then so does riding a 29er, a plus bike, exotic lightweight materials, a dropper post, disc brakes, tubeless tires, or suspension in general? does carrying a 3 liter hydration pack teach us to rely on water?
> 
> every technology makes riding more efficient and comfortable in some way. I am surprised to see people with the most high-tech bikes moving "backward" to flat pedals. I am not saying it's wrong, just interesting to see how we learn to embrace some technology and methods and abandon others. I make no judgement either way of any of these things, it's just an observation.


Time for a servo controlled GPS enabled E-bike, huh?


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Zowie said:


> Time for a servo controlled GPS enabled E-bike, huh?


nah, I'll skip all that and just watch Pinkbike videos in my Oculus headset from here on out. that's where all this is heading.


----------



## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> nah, I'll skip all that and just watch Pinkbike videos in my Oculus headset from here on out. that's where all this is heading.


Ohhhh this isn't gonna be another Oculus vs. Vive thread, is it?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

l'oiseau said:


> They aren't bad habits, they only are when you apply them to flats.
> 
> *You may find, that when you master flats, you will use those techniques on SPDs.*
> 
> It's a one way street - flat techniques work on SPDs, but SPD techniques don't work on flats. Some people call that bad technique, but really if you always ride SPDs, you'd never know.


Good observation, I especially agree with the bolded part. I'm by no means a master of flat pedals but time spent on them has improved my technique when using clips.


----------



## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Good observation, I especially agree with the bolded part. I'm by no means a master of flat pedals but time spent on them has improved my technique when using clips.


Mine too, and I'm by far a master on either. I still find clipless to be easier all around, except for falling.

In general, I'd say riding flats has made me a better rider though. Two years ago, I couldn't do what I can now.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm perfectly comfortable riding flats for park/pump/DJ/BMX and general messing around, but when it comes to trail riding, it's clipless all the way for me.


----------



## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

After about 20 years clipped in I went to flats, two years ago I think. I still also clip at times, but prefer flats except on techy climbs.

There is a learning curve. Give it time. Learn how to grip the pedals with your feet. Pick a side walk with a curb. Ride off it a hundred times. Trying feeling how to grip you pedals with your feet.

Also, learning how to load or preload a bike properly is key. This is where clips allow you to cheat and never learn this key riding technique. It's really more than a technique as it is so essential to properly riding a bike. It is what gets you connected, literally, to the bike. Cant stress that enough. 

Riders who can't jump well ... I bet they've spent most of their time learning with clips.
Just watch bmx guys or better yet Danny MacAskill. They have so much control over their bikes. What about motocross guys, who are not clipped in?


I learned more about handling a bike in two years on flats than the prior ten on clips. With only a few exceptions I'm very comfy on flats. It's the best thing I did to help me progress skill-wise.


Riding flats on a HT or rigid on rough terrain is hard but you will be forced to learn how to stay connected faster.

Climbing tech... That is even harder, and takes a while, and you'll likely never climb tech as well as on clips.


Your pedals look beat. More pins! I like slightly concave. Tried a few flavors. The RF Atlas is my favorite, with. DMR Vaults a close second.


My kids mtb. I won't let them ride clips for a long time.


----------



## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> every technology makes riding more efficient and comfortable in some way. I am surprised to see people with the most high-tech bikes moving "backward" to flat pedals. I am not saying it's wrong, just interesting to see how we learn to embrace some technology and methods and abandon others. I make no judgement either way of any of these things, it's just an observation.


For me, it really boils down to having fun on the bike, and I really like the feeling that flats give compared to clipless. I wouldn't ever try to argue that flats are more efficient - they aren't - but I don't ride to get the most efficient energy transfer I can. I ride to have fun.

If clipless is more fun for you, no reason to change anything. For me, it'll be flats forever. I've done both, and there is no comparison in terms of the fun factor.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

this morning I asked my chiropractor, who's an avid cyclist as well, about riding flat pedals. I assumed that he would tell me to stay clipped in to work on balancing my leg muscles but he is all for riding flats to force-learn technique. (he did recommend that I ride with gears for a while before going back to single-speed though.) he's been through the same thing and said that riding flat pedals increased his skills and confidence ten-fold, and that getting clipped in again allows you to bring those skills with you. pretty stoked on that, now I have t face the learning curve. heavy feet, light hands, right?


----------



## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

mack_turtle said:


> pretty stoked on that, now I have t face the learning curve. heavy feet, light hands, right?


I say light where it needs to be light, even with flats, for example, say going over a log, I still pop up my front end and my back end as I go over to be as smooth as possible. For that, I preload and point my toes to maintain contact with the pedals as the rear tire gets light.

I suppose you could just keep the feet heavy and stomp through everything, but that's not the most graceful way to do it.

One cool technique to try to get used to that toe point is just practice kicking up the rear wheel. Point the toes and kick your heel to your hamstring.

The alternate technique is the heel drop. I use this more for coming into an obstacle, braking and cornering... basically when you want your weight back on the bike.

The pedal is just a pivot and it has a degree of friction based on how much weight you put on it. Transferring the weight and the angle of the pedal changes how much friction you'll generate, and thus how attached you'll feel.

Another thing to work on is pumping over stutters or roots and stuff. Especially on a hardtail, they can bounce you right off the pedals if you don't flow with the bike.

It's true, it does make you better because it almost forces you to pump and flow with the bike.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

So, begs the question, why go to flats?


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I was hoping to start taking on some more technical terrain. I ride the same trails every week and know of some trails that are a lot more challenging. riding those trails clipped in sketches me out, as the consequences of falling can be severe. look up some videos of Emma Long Park and the Barton Creek Greenbelt in Austin; my goal is to confidently ride stuff like that, stuff that I normally avoid.

riding flats and sneakers inspires confidence at first, but the feeling of loss of control negates that. I feel that, with time and practice, I can regain that confidence and ride everything. I rode BMX for over 15 years and could bunnyhop onto the vertical surface of walls, hop and manual ledges, 180 staircases, etc and of course never used any sort of clip to do that. mountain biking is not BMX, but I want to regain that sort of strength and skill and take it to the trails. my heavy bike doesn't help, but if you ever watched NYC riders like Edwin DeLa Rosa's and Bob Scerbo's bunyhop skills on 30+ pound bikes in the late early 2000s, weight is not that big a deal.

I probably ought to start with riding my regular trails with the flats before I attempt the gnarly stuff.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

leeboh said:


> So, begs the question, why go to flats?


For me, after riding clipless since they came out, it was initially for the challenge to learn something new a couple of years ago, and I was curious with what it was like with the new (to me) tech, sticky shoes and pinned up pedals. I started in the late fall, so I could mess about over the winter and work on it.

I have no plans to go back, it forces me to ride more dynamically and it's hard to explain why, but it's just more fun. As far as power transfer goes, unless you're worried about every last %, it's really a wash. You CAN pull up as long as your shoes are engaged, which they are a lot. The only real downside is that even with thin pedals, you'll have more rock strikes, on the other hand, instead of your shoe and foot taking the impact on side strikes with clipless, the pedal will on flats. And being able to simply walk out the back with flats can save your bacon at times. There's pros and cons either way, flats are my preference on all but my road bike now.


----------



## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

Harryman said:


> And being able to simply walk out the back with flats can save your bacon at times.


Another advantage that I forgot about (it's kind of obvious). My flat shoes are also my daily drivers.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

For me, riding flats allows me to take more risks in pushing my limits. I can push into corners much harder knowing that I can dab my feet like motocross riders. Once I know the limits of grip, I then try to do the corners with both feet on the pedals. I can also do technical stuff knowing I can bail at anytime if things don't work out . But I agree that technical climbing is much harder.


----------



## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

l'oiseau said:


> They aren't bad habits, they only are when you apply them to flats.


That's not necessarily true. Tugging up on the pedals to do a bunny hop or go off a jump is a bad habit. Sure, it works sometimes, but you can only take that technique so far. No decent mtb coach is going to teach that technique.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

s0ckeyeus said:


> That's not necessarily true. Tugging up on the pedals to do a bunny hop or go off a jump is a bad habit. Sure, it works sometimes, but you can only take that technique so far. No decent mtb coach is going to teach that technique.


Nor do clipless force you to do that if you've got the skills developed to do it properly.


----------



## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Nor do clipless force you to do that if you've got the skills developed to do it properly.


Yeah, but if your skills are developed properly, you wouldn't be relying on bad habits all the time either. That kind of goes without saying...


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

l'oiseau said:


> Climbing is WAY harder with flats than with SPDs.


I don't find that to be true at all.

I DO agree that riding with platform pedals is very different than riding clipless. I rode clipless pedals for around 14yrs before putting platforms on my mtb. At first it was just for winter riding so I could wear warmer boots. But I was developing an interest in improving my tech riding skills and felt like I had hit a wall while riding clipless.

Turns out, I had been riding with some of the aforementioned lazy techniques with clipless pedals, which were holding me back. I decided to give platforms a go for a year and re-evaluate after that which ones I wanted to use most of the time. I decided to stay with the platforms most of the time and use clipless pedals on a case-by-case basis. I just have more fun on the platforms.

I will also say that if you're going to try a different pedal from what you've been using for years, you need to COMMIT to it so you can train yourself to adapt to the differences. You simply can't expect to nail platform pedals after a couple of rides after you've been using clipless for years. Just like you can't expect to be proficient with clipless on your first couple rides with them after riding platforms for years. Put the pedals on and leave them there until you get it.

Once you figure it out, THEN decide if you want to stay with the new pedals or go back to your old and trusty pedals.

Ryan Leech does his flat pedal challenge for 12 rides with various drills to work on learning the proper techniques.

https://learn.ryanleech.com/p/the-flat-pedal-challenge

Even though I didn't do this specific program, I found that after the first couple months of my own transition to platforms, my feet did not bounce off anymore. These days, I'm hitting more chunk and getting more air than I used to, and am having no problems with my foot/pedal interface. I'm staying planted exactly how I want. No trouble with climbs, tech or not. No trouble bombing through chunk. Crappy shoes can be problematic. My winter boots don't stick to the pedals near as well as my 5.10's, but winter riding isn't nearly as aggressive, so it's fine.


----------



## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

For the longest time, I even had flats on my road bike. 

I went to clipless last year to try stiffer shoes. Clipless allows you to be alot more free in your body position while really hammering. 

Flats feel ALOT better when coasting/descending/cornering or generally cruising. 

You certainly have to be in a more upright position to ride flats vs clipless, you just cannot be as free getting out in front of your crank. Try bumping your bars up and in.


----------



## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Harold said:


> I don't find that to be true at all.


Me neither. In most instances, there's not a whole lot of difference.

I changed to flats for many of the same reasons you did. I've been riding flats for the past 5 winters or so and also on my commuter and on the trainer. This year, I've only done one ride on clipless. My hopping is better. My jumping is better. My pedaling is better. Just about everything is better. I've done a lot of work other than changing out pedals (and changing bikes), but I don't know that I would have made the same improvements if I had stayed clipped in.


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I just rode on some chunkier terrain and tried to analyze what I was doing. I noticed that when coasting with the cranks parallel to the ground, my leading right foot was heel down and my trailing left foot was toes down. I'm not sure if this allowed me to grip the pedals or not, but it seemed like it did. I wasn't really paying attention to what my feet were doing while pedaling thru the chunk, but I have a feeling they were moving with the bike, if that makes any sense. The balls of my feet were just in front of the axles and at no time during the ride did my feet get bumped off the pedals. I wasn't being heavy on the pedals and light on the grips, I think it was more of being neutral at both and using my knees and elbows to follow the terrain.


----------



## garcia (Apr 10, 2008)

When I switched to Spank Oozy's and Five10's, there was no learning curve, my feet were glued right away. So much so that I still rotated my foot to 'unclip', which didn't work because my feet didn't want to rotate on the pedal. So, I am going to say its a combo of the shoes/pedals, however I have no experience with either.


----------



## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Funny reading many of above posts...

I ride both. 

I prefer clipless on raceday b/c of slightly better efficiency gains.
Plus, when true fatigue sets in I have one less thing to think about.

The rest of the time I prefer flats i.e. more casual, can pop into bar for an Ale & not get stared at.

I can ride up anything on flats that I can ride up on clipless... 

In fact it's easier on technical stuff to ride flats, due to a dab being easier to do.

Tis interesting that people that ride flats, can ride clipless easy enough (ymmv)...

Yet those that rely on clipless have difficulty going to flats o_0

We have an extra string to our bow?

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


----------



## man.cave (Nov 8, 2014)

If you have never used clipless, then you are just quoting internet crap about them teaching bad habits. I ride 4 different mtn bikes, I keep one bike with flats, just to keep things interesting. What you call bad habits, some would call advantages. If someone is pushing 800+watts on a fast climb standing, Clipless is by far the way to go. Ride what you can, and that fits your style.


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Maybe I should try clipless...

Not sure if this is correct or maybe covered already; After some thought I'm fairly certain my leading foot is heel down at the front of the stroke and trailing foot toes down at he back. I'm applying outward force to the pedals while pushing down on the leading and pulling up with my toes on the trailing pedal.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Cornfield said:


> Maybe I should try clipless...
> 
> Not sure if this is correct or maybe covered already; After some thought I'm fairly certain my leading foot is heel down at the front of the stroke and trailing foot toes down at he back. I'm applying outward force to the pedals while pushing down on the leading and pulling up with my toes on the trailing pedal.


Sounds about right, especially when pedaling. It's those angles that REALLY glue your shoes to the pedals. It's very important when the bike is in the air and no longer pushing up into the bottoms of your feet.

Not sure why that makes you think you need to try clipless?


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Harold said:


> Not sure why that makes you think you need to try clipless?


Not sure if I was serious, lol!


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

There's really no reason not to if you're at all interested. 
I know some people that stick with them and end up swearing by them and some that are just 'meh' and go back to flats. Only way you can know if they're for you is try some out.


----------



## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

targnik said:


> Funny reading many of above posts...
> 
> I ride both.


What's funny? I ride both too.

I can say with great certainty that:

I can push a bigger gear easier up climbs with my clipless vs my flats. I think the hoards of XC racers still using them supports this.

I get less pedal strikes on technical climbs because my clipless pedals are much smaller, and like was said in another post, a strike with clipless is sometimes the sole of your shoe which is less disruptive to your pedaling.

I find easier to bail out on technical climbs or rock gardens with flats, obviously. Still doesn't mean strikes are lesser.

I actually prefer pumping, jumping and cornering with flats though. The float on the clipless makes this kind of stuff a little less positive, and once you learn to point the toes and drop the heels, getting air with the bike is no issue with flats.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I came from a dirt bike background where there are no clips on the foot pegs. So the idea of being attached to the machine struck me as really odd at first. I see a lot of guys riding clipless being somewhat "stiff legged" (standing with legs in full extension very upright) whereas you rarely see that with motocross riders. I think standing with knees bent and flexible (arms bent and flexible too with body crouched forward rather than upright) so that your arms and legs are like shock absorbers will keep the feet on the pedals much easier. You want the bike to move a lot but your upper body to remain relatively stable.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

l'oiseau said:


> I can push a bigger gear easier up climbs with my clipless vs my flats.


I don't really find this to be true, either.

What I DO find to be true about clipless vs flats is that I'm not thinking as much about foot placement all the time, and making adjustments to it when I'm using clipless. And for that reason, I like clipless better for long road rides and mtb races. Did my first road century last year, and used clipless for most of my training and for the event itself. I had a brutal stretch along the route that was about 5mi through a corn tunnel with 20+mph sustained headwinds. I could ignore my foot placement and disappear into my own mind and just push through the pain. I don't think that would have been so easy if I was thinking about whether my feet were in the optimal placement. I also did the 30mi Iceman Cometh mtb race last fall, and used clipless for that one. Not thinking about foot placement was nice.

I've done up to 50mi mtb rides on flats and I'm undecided still as to whether I'd prefer clipless for such a ride. With the pace I was keeping (pretty slow), I don't recall my feet/pedals being anything I thought about at all. I mostly remember the good company, the pain, and finishing the ride in the dark. My sample size is probably too small.

At this point, I don't think you can even really use shoe stiffness as a difference between them. Sure, some flat pedal shoes are quite flexy and are less efficient. But some flat pedal shoes are super stiff (like the 5.10 Freerider Pros) and make for a pretty efficient ride. I have Freerider Contacts now, and they're somewhere in-between regular Freeriders and the Freerider Pros on stiffness. I found the Pros to be so stiff that they deaden the feedback I get from the bike through the pedals too much. A little flex lets me feel the terrain and I tend to prefer that with flat pedals. I don't tend to care with clipless.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

midwestmtb said:


> I came from a dirt bike background where there are no clips on the foot pegs. So the idea of being attached to the machine struck me as really odd at first. I see a lot of guys riding clipless being somewhat "stiff legged" (standing with legs in full extension very upright) whereas you rarely see that with motocross riders. I think standing with knees bent and flexible (arms bent and flexible too with body crouched forward rather than upright) so that your arms and legs are like shock absorbers will keep the feet on the pedals much easier. You want the bike to move a lot but your upper body to remain relatively stable.


This is great for going down, but not so great for pedaling specially up and/or for a long way.


----------



## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

l'oiseau said:


> What's funny? I ride both too.
> 
> I can say with great certainty that:
> 
> I can push a bigger gear easier up climbs with my clipless vs my flats. I think the hoards of XC racers still using them supports this.


Apologies,

I thought we were discussing 'real' mountain biking 

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


----------



## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

I find it funny how people say clipless pedals make someone lazy, or that somehow it seems flat riders are superior in their skills or technique - yet it usually seems like people want to get AWAY from clipless for fear of falling, and inability to get out of the pedals. 

Sounds like flat pedals is the easy way out, not making someone rely on their skills, technique, balance, line choice, and such, to prevent a tip over. 













Just stirring the pot.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I went on a long (for me) ride today. Felt good about my skills and confidence, took some chutes and ledges that I might have been too timid to do if I was clipped in.

However, my quads are dead now. Quads specifically, way more sore than I have ever felt. Saddle position, limit of power from flats, just being a wussy?


----------



## Strafer (Jun 7, 2004)

DethWshBkr said:


> Just stirring the pot.


Just getting old.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> just being a wussy?


This. 

I did about 37mi today, 3200ft of climbing, mix of difficulty ranging from beginner stuff to double black. Slippery as hell limestone sent me into the dirt several times, and I was frequently just too tired to make a serious attempt at some of the climbing tech sections. Platform pedals and FiveTen Freerider Contacts. I'm ready for a hot shower and bedtime.


----------



## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

https://learn.ryanleech.com/p/the-flat-pedal-challenge

/thread


----------



## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

DethWshBkr said:


> I find it funny how people say clipless pedals make someone lazy, or that somehow it seems flat riders are superior in their skills or technique - yet it usually seems like people want to get AWAY from clipless for fear of falling, and inability to get out of the pedals.
> 
> Sounds like flat pedals is the easy way out, not making someone rely on their skills, technique, balance, line choice, and such, to prevent a tip over.
> 
> Just stirring the pot.


I think of it the other way i.e. people ride clips b/c they're scared their feet will slip off flats 

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> This is great for going down, but not so great for pedaling specially up and/or for a long way.


Yep good point. I should have clarified that I was talking about preventing your feet from come off when going through chunk or downhill. A couple guys I ride with are nearly vertical on their bikes even when going down.


----------



## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

l'oiseau said:


> There aren't (IMO) a ton of advantages for flats. They are bulkier and get caught on stuff easier, they are less efficient, even getting on them with big spikes can be problematic - you have to place your foot just right and you can't wiggle it into place, they hurt when your leg hits them, you can't cheat and pull up the bike, and I think they are heavier. The only real advantage is the ease of putting a foot down. And maybe a simpler pedal (but increased strikes have proven to me to beat them up a bit more). But it's a different technique and it builds character


Why do you ride flats if you feel that way?

I can't argue that pedal strikes are bit more common when I'm on flats, or that they'll tear your legs up if not careful. But I've got scars on my legs from both types of pedals.

Heavier? Not necessarily, and not enough to matter with what I have. I currently have RF Atlas 355g, M8000 XT Race 343g, and M8000 XT Trail 408g.

I feel like there are at least a couple more advantages to flats.

Flats are way easier in snow. Important for me as I ride year round. Never have to worry about ice and packed snow in the way.

I can use technique I learned naturally as kid who practically lived on a bmx bike.

Except for pulling up, I feel more connected on flats. All that grip, no float. Because of that I ride more aggressively, more dynamically, and i feel with more style on flats. I feel like I can pump better and drive the rear end around corners better on flats because there's no float. I guess the next thin I need to try are clipless pedals with pins and grippy spd shoes.

Lastly, I like to use a couple different foot positions. On long climbs I'll ride back a bit, more mid-foot, and if feels like it takes some stress off my calves and quads. Feels more like power from hips and gluts. If its more technical I ride more on ball of the foot like I did on BMX bikes and I feel, as above, that I can ride harder in that position.

Basically, the only thing I can't do on flats that I can on clipless is pull up. And I don't pedal that way much.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

can I delete my own thread? I regret posting something else for the nerds to argue about.


----------



## sinfony78 (Dec 2, 2012)

hey Mack, when you're riding just straight up flat stuff, can you easily reposition your foot on your pedal? I'm on straitline amps and 510s and they're so grippy, I have to pick my foot up to move them

also, just saw your post that you're in Austin. I actually ride Emma long every time I'm in town (I'll be there tomorrow and probably brushy on Wed). I've climbed everything at Emma on flats (gave up clipless 5 years ago). you'll have to give it some time tho, I went through many a bloody shin, but now I pretty much never have an incident, only when I'm trying a new climb and I don't know what gear I need to be in, usually ending up too low


----------



## dfiler (Feb 3, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> can I delete my own thread? I regret posting something else for the nerds to argue about.


lol, look what you started

Just have fun is my advice. I switched back to platforms after a decade clipped in. For me, I was willing to trade a slight efficiency loss for the advantages of platforms. I am more likely to try log stunts and jumps. There are more options on how to bail off a bike, like jumping straight upward off of the pedals simultaneously. Safer when crashing. And best of all, I can hike or walk into a bar conveniently and comfortably.

It takes a while to get back to the same level of skill and comfort though. If you've spent many years clipped in, it could take a year to be reach that same level on platforms. You know you've reached that level when slipping off a pedal becomes no more likely than when clipped in.

My take is that some people will prefer clipless and others will prefer platforms. Neither is better. But I do think peer pressure has made some people go clipless when they would be happier on platforms. This is likely a more common situation than being peer pressured to use platforms.


----------



## pakdoc (Dec 4, 2005)

Here's some thoughts as I have made the conversion this year.
1) I use 5-10's and VP pedals....new...no missing pins
2) Ride like a gorilla....think like you are gripping the pedal with the cup of your foot
3) Put the pedal in the middle of your arch stay off the ball of your foot
4) Yes drop your heal or at least stay flat
5) When jumping/bunny hopping.....learn to Manual, hence, learn to push into the handlebar and point toes down and wedge your core in between. Look up videos to help show you. I have been thinking some Ergon grips could make this part easier.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

a buddy just gave me his old Chromag Contacts. the bearings are a bit worn but they are bigger and have a better shape than the Vices. woot.

riding this weekend felt much better. I have to re-learn and gain strength to bunnyhop once a again. I can't beleive how weak I have become!


----------



## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> can I delete my own thread? I regret posting something else for the nerds to argue about.


Yeah, so who's left after all the nerds leave?


----------



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Harold said:


> I don't find that to be true at all.
> 
> I DO agree that riding with platform pedals is very different than riding clipless. I rode clipless pedals for around 14yrs before putting platforms on my mtb. At first it was just for winter riding so I could wear warmer boots. But I was developing an interest in improving my tech riding skills and felt like I had hit a wall while riding clipless.
> 
> ...


What Harold said. My experience was almost exactly the same.


----------



## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> the Jacket sneakers are firm but not board-stiff like my other shoes. they feel like old Etnies that I used for BMX in th it is doubtful that the additional grip of Five Ten shoes would help me much in this situation. I probably could have answered my own question by searching some basic flat-pedal technique, but I wanted to make sure I was not putting myself at a disadvantage with the wrong equipment.
> 
> I know technique is 99% of what I need, but I wonder if a convex-shape pedal would help a bit too. I bought the Vice pedals because they are so flat but I can feel the ball of my foot slipping on the middle of the pedal. I might try putting some skateboard grip tape in the middle like the old Fly Ruben BMX pedals:
> 
> ...


Am I missing something here? There seems to be a lack of pins on that pedal. Some, sure, but many missing which doesn't help keeping the foot in place.

You could also try the Catalyst pedal: https://pedalinginnovations.com/

I've been riding mine for about 3 months now and really like them.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

those are BMX pedals that are made to stick to your shoes until you need to take them off to do a trick, so they don't have a ton of traction. they're also a bit worn out. my point is that the center beam of a lot of pedals don't have much grip, so you could get that little extra bit by putting grip tape on them.

I contacted James about his pedals before they came out to tell him that using set screws would be a bad idea and a deal-breaker for me, but he made them that way anyhow. i think the Chromag Contacts I have now are plenty big and grippy.


----------



## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

mack_turtle said:


> I contacted James about his pedals before they came out to tell him that using set screws would be a bad idea and a deal-breaker for me, but he made them that way anyhow. i think the Chromag Contacts I have now are plenty big and grippy.


Probably better in the long run anyway. The whole concept behind the Catalyst pedals seems like a gimmick to me. The studies James points to on the Catalyst site don't even back up his claims, if you actually take time to skim over them. Not a fan.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

s0ckeyeus said:


> Probably better in the long run anyway. The whole concept behind the Catalyst pedals seems like a gimmick to me. The studies James points to on the Catalyst site don't even back up his claims, if you actually take time to skim over them. Not a fan.


Bike James is full of ****. Always has been. He should stick to workouts.

I agree that set screw type pins are trash, for a lot of reasons. I have 2 sets of DMR Vaults right now and I'm very happy with them.


----------



## Maddog852 (Feb 23, 2013)

Hey mate, not sure if this has been posted. Some good tips From Ryan Leech.

https://learn.ryanleech.com/p/the-flat-pedal-challenge


----------



## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Harold said:


> Bike James is full of ****. Always has been. He should stick to workouts.


LOL. I was trying to be nice...but I totally agree.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

s0ckeyeus said:


> LOL. I was trying to be nice...but I totally agree.


I do find the marketing of the Catalyst pedals to be a little suspect. Reminds me of some of the fad diet and nutrition marketing gimmicks I've seen. But I will say this: I do like the pedals after I rode with them because I don't have to worry about foot placement as much as other flats I've ridden. After dabbing my feet, there is so much surface area it doesn't much matter where my foot lands. However, I didn't notice much difference in efficiency and some of the other claims that he makes.


----------



## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

idividebyzero said:


> Slipping off or BOUNCING off? Pins and rubber wont do anything if your feet are bouncing off. The bouncing problem is usually caused by the gear being too easy and preventing you from putting enough weight on the pedals. When I switched to flats I had to use harder gears since the granny gear would pop my feet off the pedals whenever things got bumpy.
> 
> I would guess the problem is technique and has nothing to do with shoes, just need to learn how to keep weight on the pedals while spinning easy gears. Its very difficult to spin your way up a rock garden on flats.


This has been my experience too. I'm trying out switching to flat pedals now, and one of the biggest issues I'm seeing is the need to always have to keep in a high enough gear to be able to put pressure on the pedals especially if I need to power. With SPDs it didn't matter if you're spinning out a little through dips or something because no pressure is required to keep feet on the pedals. With flats it's making me shift gears much more often.


----------



## garcia (Apr 10, 2008)

TNTall said:


> This has been my experience too. I'm trying out switching to flat pedals now, and one of the biggest issues I'm seeing is the need to always have to keep in a high enough gear to be able to put pressure on the pedals especially if I need to power. With SPDs it didn't matter if you're spinning out a little through dips or something because no pressure is required to keep feet on the pedals. With flats it's making me shift gears much more often.


It is a skills issue to some for sure. There is a mild learning curve, but it leads to overall better bike handling skills, both pedaling (can't be lazy) and bunny hopping (have to really use technique rather than rely on pedals). I believe I am a better rider now than I was before I started using them.

Also, FYI to anyone shopping, universal has Spank Oozy's in silver for $79.99. Ordered another set for a gravel bike and a set for a neighbor who has wanted gripper than stock flat pedals.

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=85574


----------



## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

garcia said:


> It is a skills issue to some for sure. There is a mild learning curve, but it leads to overall better bike handling skills, both pedaling (can't be lazy) and bunny hopping (have to really use technique rather than rely on pedals). I believe I am a better rider now than I was before I started using them.
> 
> Also, FYI to anyone shopping, universal has Spank Oozy's in silver for $79.99. Ordered another set for a gravel bike and a set for a neighbor who has wanted gripper than stock flat pedals.
> 
> https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=85574


I don't see how skills have to do with what I said. If I shift to low gear approaching a hill, I have no resistance to press down on the pedals to keep my feet stuck while spinning fast. So with flats I have to wait until I slow down enough to be able to pedal again. With clips I can spin fast in those transitions and not lose as much speed.

Are you saying it takes skill to be able to spin as fast with flats as you can with clips?


----------



## garcia (Apr 10, 2008)

TNTall said:


> I don't see how skills have to do with what I said. If I shift to low gear approaching a hill, I have no resistance to press down on the pedals to keep my feet stuck while spinning fast. So I have to wait until I slow down enough to be able to pedal again. With clips I can spin fast in those transitions and not lose as much speed.
> 
> Are you saying it takes skill to be able to spin as fast with flats as you can with clips?


Yes. Riding SS with flats and a REALLY low gear taught me to spin a LOT faster than I was accustomed to (160 rpm for brief spells), which negates the issue of no resistance after shifting, just pedal faster. I have zero issues with lack of resistance causing my feet to come off the pedals. Although shifting more to stay in a more correct gear is also a good habit to be in.


----------



## Corey Trevor (Apr 24, 2017)

Get off the balls of your feet. Clipless makes you ride on your tip toes, which is no good for flats. You are describing to a tee the issues that arise with flats when your foot is not in good position. Get off the balls of your feet, and ride more in the arches.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

TNTall said:


> Are you saying it takes skill to be able to spin as fast with flats as you can with clips?


I think it does.

Using too low a gear can sometimes be detrimental whether on flats or clips.


----------



## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

garcia said:


> Yes. Riding SS with flats and a REALLY low gear taught me to spin a LOT faster than I was accustomed to (160 rpm for brief spells), which negates the issue of no resistance after shifting, just pedal faster. I have zero issues with lack of resistance causing my feet to come off the pedals. Although shifting more to stay in a more correct gear is also a good habit to be in.


That's interesting. So it sounds like what you are saying is you have to train yourself to spin in a more circular motion instead of the pedals guiding your feet. And also it is necessary to shift more often.


----------



## garcia (Apr 10, 2008)

Corey Trevor said:


> Get off the balls of your feet. Clipless makes you ride on your tip toes, which is no good for flats. You are describing to a tee the issues that arise with flats when your foot is not in good position. Get off the balls of your feet, and ride more in the arches.


Interesting... this I definitely do NOT do. I have been riding on the balls of my feet on flats. I'll have to give this a shot!



TNTall said:


> That's interesting. So it sounds like what you are saying is you have to train yourself to spin in a more circular motion instead of the pedals guiding your feet. And also it is necessary to shift more often.


Correct. There were a few reasons to switch to flats, all of them good, but two that really stood out were that it can correct improper pedaling technique developed from clips: relying on the secured connection to guide your foot around, and bunnyhopping by lifting on the pedals. On my road bike, down a hill, in the small front/big rear, I could pedal REALLY fast, without worry, as I am connected. Doing the same on flats took a bit of practice. Now, with gears rather than SS, that is less likely to be an issue since you can shift, but I think the technique is still an important one to learn, as it trains your legs to pedal properly rather than hang on for dear life since they have no choice because they are clipped.

Also, practice bunny hops! I did it wrong for soooo long, but once I got the proper technique down, having to do one on the fly is no problem anymore. It takes practice, sure, but I find them for more useful when done correctly, and they can save you (or some poor woodland creature that darted out) in a number of situations.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

TNTall said:


> And also it is necessary to shift more often.


Lots of single speeders on flats might disagree with that


----------



## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Corey Trevor said:


> Get off the balls of your feet. Clipless makes you ride on your tip toes, which is no good for flats. You are describing to a tee the issues that arise with flats when your foot is not in good position. Get off the balls of your feet, and ride more in the arches.


This kind of relates back to the Bike James discussion. My personal opinion is that riding with the axle in the arches is OK for some uphill stuff (especially when cranking a tough gear), but it's not great for most riding. I like having the axle pretty much directly behind the "knuckle" of my big toe, which is basically right behind the ball of the foot. This position seems much more explosive and powerful to me. My foot position is pretty much identical on clipless and flats.


----------



## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

s0ckeyeus said:


> This kind of relates back to the Bike James discussion. My personal opinion is that riding with the axle in the arches is OK for some uphill stuff (especially when cranking a tough gear), but it's not great for most riding. I like having the axle pretty much directly behind the "knuckle" of my big toe, which is basically right behind the ball of the foot. This position seems much more explosive and powerful to me. My foot position is pretty much identical on clipless and flats.


I was thinking it would take a big adjustment for me to ride on the arch of my foot. Feels like running flat footed, but I'll try it.


----------



## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

TNTall said:


> I was thinking it would take a big adjustment for me to ride on the arch of my foot. Feels like running flat footed, but I'll try it.


Maybe it works for some people, but it doesn't feel good to me at all. I guess running or jumping flat footed is a good analogy. It just feels clumsy and unathletic.


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

i say it's neither. you just need to get used to the "floating feet" feeling...


----------



## mrFreelancer (Apr 25, 2017)

Ok, I'm out of the closet too. I just "transitioned" a month ago to flats from 15+ years of clipless. I too am experiencing lots of slippage, scarred shins and back legs. After reading this post, perhaps I should switch to those jacket sneakers or similar. This past weekend, scratched up my leg pretty good after hitting a small gap and downside, my left foot just slipped right off.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I am finding that it's mostly a matter of technique, BUT using shoes and pedals that don't like to stick together to some degree certainly puts you at a disadvantage. the same applies to tires; a skilled rider can maintain traction on a bald tire, but something with big, sharp lugs certainly helps.


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> I am finding that it's mostly a matter of technique, BUT using shoes and pedals that don't like to stick together to some degree certainly puts you at a disadvantage. the same applies to tires; a skilled rider can maintain traction on a bald tire, but something with big, sharp lugs certainly helps.


i run plastic pedals and they all pretty much have the pins ground off from rock strikes. i'm sure my feet slip all over, but it's nothing i notice since i've always ridden flats...


----------



## small adventures PGH (Jun 12, 2017)

RAKC Ind said:


> I wear a pair of vans and was riding the same pedals on my precious bike. Worked rather well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Skate shoes and sambas are great shoes for grip on the pedals, there is a good reason messengers and bmx rides swear by them.


----------



## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

DethWshBkr said:


> I find it funny how people say clipless pedals make someone lazy, or that somehow it seems flat riders are superior in their skills or technique - yet it usually seems like people want to get AWAY from clipless for fear of falling, and inability to get out of the pedals.
> 
> Sounds like flat pedals is the easy way out, not making someone rely on their skills, technique, balance, line choice, and such, to prevent a tip over.
> 
> Just stirring the pot.


See now I am the opposite, I believe that both bring positives and negatives to the game based on the particular rider and their available skills. I started out on flats and received clipless as a gift from my brother (who is an XC racer and specifically rides clipsless). The only reason that I really (remember) switched is because it was available, nothing really more. However, what I have found over the years is that I "relied" on the clips to keep me in the pedals instead of learning to shift my weight, position, etc. When I got my trailbike and started learning these techniques a few years ago I began to find the clipless a hindrance in some situations.

The statement people have made about the fear of NOT being able to unclip at certain times is a true one. Something that I experienced this time last year. Because of my inability to unclip in enough time during a fall I subsequently broke my fibulae and blew out my ankle (again) requiring surgery, extensive PT and months on crutches/walking boot/etc, not to mention the loss of an entire season of riding. This all simply because I was going down and my foot was not able to unclip causing my heel to catch on a root/rut with full speed and body weight almost directly into the leg.

Funny part was, on that ill-fated ride I had literally purchase a pair of 5.10s the night before and was looking for flats. Not because I was scared of being able to unclip but I was attempting to learn better skills (like bunny hopping without using the clips to pull the rear end up) that would ultimately make me a better rider.

So while some have "lost confidence" in their skills because of the change, think of it conversely where you are "sketched out" simply because of the crash you had and are attempting to regain the confidence. I have only been back riding on my normal trails for about three months now, but I can tell you it will probably be a full year FROM NOW that I will be back to where I was before the injury. I am not talking strength or endurance wise, but rather confidence wise and the feeling that my body and bike know what I am looking to do as though it is instinct instead of that nagging feeling in the back of my mind saying "are you sure you got this? are you sure you want to go THIS fast? etc...."


----------



## cogman60 (Nov 14, 2015)

*trying flats*



small adventures PGH said:


> Skate shoes and sambas are great shoes for grip on the pedals, there is a good reason messengers and bmx rides swear by them.


I finally have put some flats on my tallboy and am using a pair of Zioc Prophet shoes. My main reason for the change from the clipless pedals I have ridden for 20 years is simple I got tired of ending up on my butt when I couldn't get my foot loose on technical uphills. Part of my problem is I'm just not as strong anymore but enough is enough. Everything people are saying about flats is in my experience true. Bottom line for me is I haven't had any dork falls since switching to flats for trail riding. I still keep the clipless on my XC rig but that may change too. The flats have saved me from a nasty fall or two so far and I am committed to using them despite popping off occasionally. I usually need the rest break anyway


----------



## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


----------



## cogman60 (Nov 14, 2015)

*thanks!*



tealy said:


> Nothing wrong with those shoes and pedals. The problem is your (lack of) technique.
> 
> These tips will help you...
> - Lower your seat about a half inch (at first, later you can put back higher)
> ...


Thanks Tealy, all good pointers. I have been experimenting with the mid foot placement which seems foreign to me after doing ball of the foot cleat placement for so long but I notice an advantage to it with the flats. I will definitely lower l the seat and practice my bunny hop.


----------



## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


----------



## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

Harold said:


> I don't find that to be true at all.


Not to be a dick, but you really provided no evidence for that rebuttal.

I happened to take a ride on my flats bike yesterday after riding clipless for quite a while, the difference was immediately noticeable to me, and it made me think of a simple test to show why.

Take a bike with flats and remove one pedal. You might be able to get along on a flat by using momentum to get through the dead spot, but then try even going up a slight grade. You'll stall.

Now try the same thing with a clipless pedal. I think you'll be able to see where I'm going without even actually trying this.

If you don't see the difference, then I don't know how else to prove it. Whether it is bad technique or not, you can simply put more power, smoother, to the cranks with a clipless pedal. Those who exploit that advantage to get some extra grunt up climbs will immediately notice the difference with flats.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

l'oiseau said:


> Not to be a dick, but you really provided no evidence for that rebuttal.
> 
> I happened to take a ride on my flats bike yesterday after riding clipless for quite a while, the difference was immediately noticeable to me, and it made me think of a simple test to show why.
> 
> ...


I don't know how else to put it for you, but if you're having problems then you're using bad technique and illustrating the point that it's easy to develop bad habits with clipless pedals that flat pedals will expose in no time.

When pedaling, drop a heel on the downstroke and when on the upstroke, point your toe sorta like you're trying to wipe dog crap off of your shoe. This is ACTUALLY how you're supposed to ride with clipless pedals, too (the fitter I visited for my road bike fit worked with me on my pedaling form in clipless pedals with this technique). Guess what - the techniques work great for both types of pedals on the upstroke.

And guess what - I actually do one-legged drills from time to time on platform pedals and the above technique works fine.

I'm pretty sure that most losses in efficiency of platforms come from the shoes (namely, flexy soles) and not the pedal/shoe interface.


----------



## Maddog852 (Feb 23, 2013)

"life is too short to ride a bike you don't love". Sums it up


----------



## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

Harold - there is still a dead spot right before TDC on the upstroke. If you can spin fast enough to carry momentum through that point, hooray. If not, you'll stall or have to ratchet your pedals.

I know how to maintain traction with flats by angling them, but you simply cannot pull up. Can you provide upward force in certain pedal positions?

Efficiency is a bit of a misnomer as well. It's been shown in tests, at steady state, that there is no difference in efficiency between the two. It's when you need to expend a burst of energy for a steep climb, you can transmit more power for short burst... my wording before was "spin wildly", but really I meant push and pull as hard as you might with no dead spots.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

l'oiseau said:


> Harold - there is still a dead spot right before TDC on the upstroke. If you can spin fast enough to carry momentum through that point, hooray. If not, you'll stall or have to ratchet your pedals.


Like I said, I do not find in practice that this causes problems.

If I stall on a climb, this is not why. Typically, it's because the climb is steep AF and/or I'm really tired. I stall because even with my pedals in the supposed optimal location for power, I can't put down enough.


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

It's also been tested and well documented that except for fully trained pro racers and the like that you are not pulling up with any power.

I don't have the problem you describe at all because of something I stumbled on and learned early on. All "pulling up" actually is, your simply removing the weight of the leg that's not producing power (up stroke).

Proper technique and there is 0 issues that you described. The issue is simply learning the balance point before your shoe looses grip with the pedal. And since this is climbing, your not being bounced around so no concern of being kicked off the pedals.

I ride flats exclusively because I'm not a pro racer so nothing to gain except one less thing to screw with and not have to worry about my knees or ankles getting trashed in a crash.

Nothing wrong with riding clipless. They make life easier as they require much less effort into learning proper techniques

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

l'oiseau said:


> Efficiency is a bit of a misnomer as well. It's been shown in tests, at steady state, that there is no difference in efficiency between the two. It's when you need to expend a burst of energy for a steep climb, you can transmit more power for short burst... my wording before was "spin wildly", but really I meant push and pull as hard as you might with no dead spots.


I agree. I'm pretty comfortable on flats but feel more powerful with clipless. Doesn't matter to me what any tests or studies say, I just prefer them.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

let's get back to talking about _me_!

No, really, I hope my experience will help some other people.

I have been riding and enjoying the flat pedals for several rides now. Last night, I drank too much strong, black tea and had an urge to ride my bike around the block at 10 p.m. I have a relatively new frame and I am still playing around with the fit on it. it has an eccentric bottom bracket, so I wanted to see how the various positions possible on the BB might affect how the bike handles regarding some basic agility skills. I moved the BB around and practiced manualling and bunnyhopping in various positions while pacing up and down the street in from of my house for about 30 minutes. it was a pathetic display that got some odd looks from a neighbor, but I learned some things that are not relevant to this discussion.

early then next morning when I should have been fast asleep, I was wakened by an excrusiating sensation in my leg. I had an atomic charly horse in my right calf that spasmed so hard that I had to get out of bed and put my full body weight on my foot to get it to release. I massaged it and went back to sleep. this was not the first time I have experienced this sensation, but I usually get it from doing a lot of uphill walking, not riding my bike.

earlier the next evening, i went on a short-ish ride on my neighborhood trails and practiced some manuals on my way to the trail entrance, trying to be mindful of my form. I realized that I ride almost exclusively right-foot-foward and actually point my toes down, contracting my calf muscle hard, to control the bike with my right foot. no wonder it cramped up! I think I do this regardless of where I put my foot on the pedal or what kind of pedals I am using (clipped in or flats).basically, my foot looks like this when i attempt anything technical:









(just shaved my legs for this photo shoot with the new prototype sneakers from Five.Ten. don't tell them I leaked this photo!)

TL;DR any tips for dropping the toes-down habit for a heel-dropping habit?


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Ya, smash them on a rock or root a couple times (drop the bb all the way down). You learn real fast when your limping by the time you get back to the car.

Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. Honestly just takes conscious efforts to reprogram. I had no idea in was doing it wrong just thought I was timing my pedal strokes poorly. That too but started watching technique videos and practicing. Just like learning deal with clipless.

Even more so convincing your body that you dont always have to lead with the same leg. Get your legs more ambidextrous and it helps A LOT. It's not as bad as being right handed and trying to learn to write with your left. But we all have a dominate leg. 



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Oval-tine = no dead spots ;-P

Now get off my lawn!!

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Paint the fence, with your feet.


----------



## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

RAKC Ind said:


> Ya, smash them on a rock or root a couple times (drop the bb all the way down). You learn real fast when your limping by the time you get back to the car.


Exactly what I was thinking.

MT - you are doing the correct thing by finding some easy terrain and cruising around just trying to find the correct feel. Find a curb with a nice smooth approach and landing and run off it a hundred times. Your feet will get the feel.

Unfortunately, seems you managed to pick up a not great habit by letting your lead toe drop. Lead foot should usually be more flat or heel down IMO. My rear foot lets my toe drop when I "hook" the pedal when I really need to have a lot of control over the rear end. But, I make sure my toe is not hanging over the pedal too far as it can get caught on a rock.


----------



## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

Haha - it's strange people keep telling me what I can and can't do. Only on the internet! I keep telling you, I can climb steeper stuff in a bigger gear easier with clips. I guess it's magic! I'm more likely to stall with flats. No oval gears on either bike.

And I'm SURE I'm pulling up, I can feel it in my shoes. I can flip the whole back of my bike up without toe pointing with clips. Anyone can. You need to be a well trained pro to do that? Sorry, don't buy it...

I ride flats because I like the wide platform for cornering, and I like the confidence I have knowing I can push hard and "bail" out easier than with clipless. I can pedal hard, sprint, pick up the back of the bike, etc with them, but it's not the same. I also cannot pull up on my pedal stroke. It's just simple physics...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I use the force to pull up with flat pedals.


----------



## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I use the force to pull up with flat pedals.


Bahaha!


----------



## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> I use the force to pull up with flat pedals.


I also use the force to push down with flat pedals, as well as side to side.

The force is really the only thing that works in these situations.


----------

