# U.S. made DH manufacturers?



## BRMBA MONKEY! (Aug 9, 2007)

Finally in the market for beginning assembly of a downhill bike and I'm wanting to do it piece by piece, but first I'd need a frame and I'm wanting a U.S. made bike, since I'd like atleast one of my steeds to be made here. Starting this thread to compile a list of U.S. made dh bikes, any input and all suggestions are welcome.


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## shakedown94 (Apr 10, 2007)

turner dhr..... great company and go-ride has em cheap :thumbsup:


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## kipdrunner (Aug 9, 2007)

Intense


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## specializedbeta18 (Jul 31, 2008)

BRMBA MONKEY! said:


> Finally in the market for beginning assembly of a downhill bike and I'm wanting to do it piece by piece, but first I'd need a frame and I'm wanting a U.S. made bike, since I'd like atleast one of my steeds to be made here. Starting this thread to compile a list of U.S. made dh bikes, any input and all suggestions are welcome.


Foes is USA made in Southern Cali. My friend ride a Foes Fly and its awesome. Also, the Curnutt racing suspension is amazing!


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## Rb (Feb 28, 2007)

Turner
Intense
Foes
Ventana
Yeti (sorta)


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Intense
Turner
Sinister
Yeti
Foes


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## niklaroot (Sep 21, 2005)

Cannondale ! Way to go !

Just kidding...they wouldn't turn out a decent DH bike if their lives depended on it


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## rep_1969 (Mar 25, 2004)

Rb said:


> Turner
> Intense
> Foes
> Ventana
> Yeti (sorta)


Aren't the high-end/expensive DH frames made here in Colorado, with the cheaper frames made in Asia? Or something like that?


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Trek Session 88.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Canfield?


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## DHgnaR (Feb 20, 2008)

DHidiot said:


> Intense
> Turner
> Sinister
> Yeti
> Foes


Is Sinister still in the US? I thought they were moving production to Canada?


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

Clutchman83 said:


> Trek Session 88.





Khemical said:


> Canfield


Sorry but no those are not made in the USA


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## RickyD (Jan 28, 2004)

Rotec


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## amorphous (Jul 7, 2006)

Santa Cruz


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## DHgnaR (Feb 20, 2008)

What about SuperCo and BMW? Where are Chumbas made?


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2009)

DHgnaR said:


> What about SuperCo and BMW? Where are Chumbas made?


SuperCo and BMW are US, Chumba is Taiwan.


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## Jettj45 (Jul 25, 2004)

niklaroot said:


> Cannondale ! Way to go !
> 
> Just kidding...they wouldn't turn out a decent DH bike if their lives depended on it


Actually the Judge is a really good bike. So was the Gemini DH. However, I think they recently announced they are outsourcing just about everything to china now...bastards


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## CountryBoy (Oct 24, 2006)

amorphous said:


> Santa Cruz


All Santa Cruz bikes are actually welded in the Giant bikes factory in Taiwan starting in late 2008. Giant has been welding the single pivot Santa Cruz for a few years now.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Are Lessworths made in the US?


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

sixsixtysix said:


> SuperCo and BMW are US, Chumba is Taiwan.


You can get an America made Chumba you just have to ask...:thumbsup:


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## burgundy snake (Dec 12, 2007)

Brooklyn Machine Works: No chain growth, no pedal feedback, 9" of rear wheel travel, virtually no brake jack and chatter.
http://www.brooklynmachineworks.com/site/bikesindex.html

- Personal favorites -
Canfield JEDI
Turner DHR
BMW
Intense (M3, M6)
Foes


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## blender (Oct 28, 2005)

DHgnaR said:


> Is Sinister still in the US? I thought they were moving production to Canada?


yes, Frank just finished hand welding the first batch (20) of their new DH bikes.
literally, like yesterday.


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

Khemical said:


> Canfield


made in taiwan


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## $ally Hu$tle (Apr 6, 2007)

The yeti DHR-303 and DH-303 are both hand made in golden, colorado.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

Of all the bikes mentioned, I would highly recommend the Ventana El Cuervo. I think it's the best US bike for the money. I had one and loved it to death, but ultimatly had to sell it.

Impeccable quality, great customer service, and arguably the stiffest rear end of any similar bike out there. (Except for the older DHR's and the Foes, but I'm not a fan of propriatary shocks.) If you're buying new, get the Cuervo!


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## eastpeak (May 11, 2004)

$ally Hu$tle said:


> The yeti DHR-303 and DH-303 are both hand made in golden, colorado.


No, if you mean 303-RDH, it is made in Taiwan.
4X and 303-DH are made in Coloradao.


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## brillantesdv (Oct 24, 2007)

blender said:


> yes, Frank just finished hand welding the first batch (20) of their new DH bikes.
> literally, like yesterday.


gah you beat me to it. 
if Frank allowed a 1 for 1 swap for my R9, i'd would be on that list for the first batch.

to the guy that asked about Sinister moving production to Canada...i think that was just for the Gruitr frame.


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

Brothas you forgot about SWD up in Norcal, they're a small company but def made in USA.


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

For stems, I know Point One makes their stuff in the US.

www.pointoneracing.com

Good luck getting a fork, brakes, tires, etc. that are made in the US though!


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

Ojai Bicyclist said:


> For stems, I know Point One makes their stuff in the US.
> 
> www.pointoneracing.com
> 
> Good luck getting a fork, brakes, tires, etc. that are made in the US though!


Avalanche
Chris King
Profile
Twenty 6
Camponoglo (italy)
Hope (england)

Thats most of what you need.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

ianjenn said:


> Avalanche
> Chris King
> Profile
> Twenty 6
> ...


Wow. I just realized an all-US downhill bike is a tall order. BTW, Hadley hubs are US made as well and they're better than Hopes anyway.


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## 2_wheels (Sep 24, 2006)

How about Ellsworth??
not only made in USA, but in an environmentally green facility.
I don't own one YET...


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

Uncle Cliffy said:


> Wow. I just realized an all-US downhill bike is a tall order. BTW, Hadley hubs are US made as well and they're better than Hopes anyway.


Hope for brakes.

Buy Michelin tires (france)
king, Hadley, Profile hubs
Thomson post, stem


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## Sghost (Jul 15, 2008)

Evil bikes being welded in WA?


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Since when is US-made defined as not made in Taiwan/Japan/China? I don't get where you guys are quoting Hope and Michelin and Campy and the lot for this thread?

Did I miss something?


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

2_wheels said:


> How about Ellsworth??


 


ianjenn said:


> Hope for brakes.


Oh yeah...


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Knolly (frames are welded / painted in USA - assembled in Canada which is a US state right?)


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

It's Americas hat.


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

Rotec RL9

Risse forks are US made


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Intense......
great dh bike


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

So were Stratos forks, although they appeared to have been made in the back of a hardware store, but that's alright.


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## _dw (Jan 20, 2004)

All e.thirteen SRS+ and LG1+ parts are manufactured and assembled right here in the USA. (Leominster, Massachusetts)


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

DHidiot said:


> It's Americas hat.


Does that mean Mexico is our socks?


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

iheartbicycles said:


> made in taiwan


[fixed]

Canfield?


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

Khemical said:


> [fixed]
> 
> Canfield?


 Made by pacific cycles


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Got to pass the love of SuperCo and Avalanche. There are not 2 better companies to deal with. Doc/Terry from SuperCo and Craig from Avy are great people.


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

Clutchman83 said:


> Since when is US-made defined as not made in Taiwan/Japan/China? I don't get where you guys are quoting Hope and Michelin and Campy and the lot for this thread?
> 
> Did I miss something?


This is what you missed and this is coming from a very one sided view. I dont care about companies...
Specialized
Fox
Cannondale

that sold out and went over to China (Taiwan) to make bikes to save a buck. So awesome does that mean there are now 8-12 year olds welding bike for a bage of rice a day? Who knows I can only guess how far out they know of any Americans coming by the plant. Quick hide the kids!!

So I would rather pay my $$ to a welder based out of LA, New York, Utah etc. who is making real money and spending it here. Campy, and the other parts are made in developed countries with good labor standards. And they are nice!


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## Northshore0909 (Jul 25, 2008)

ianjenn said:


> This is what you missed and this is coming from a very one sided view. I dont care about companies...
> Specialized
> Giant
> Cannondale
> ...


 Just FYI, Giant is a Taiwanese owned company and was established there in 1972, they aren't a sellout.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

I'm pretty damn sure Canfield is not made by Pacfiic. Banshee might be who you're thinking of.

Mexico.....is more like Americas diaper that needs to be changed.


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## Captain Snakebite (Aug 17, 2004)

DHidiot said:


> Mexico.....is more like Americas diaper that needs to be changed.


Haha I just shot Mtn Dew out my nose when I saw that.


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## amorphous (Jul 7, 2006)

that's weak, IMO


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## lalocotequinta (Mar 28, 2007)

DHidiot said:


> I'm pretty damn sure Canfield is not made by Pacfiic. Banshee might be who you're thinking of.
> 
> Mexico.....is more like Americas diaper that needs to be changed.


Mr red neck here...it seems you had way too much jerk beef today


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2009)

DHidiot said:


> I'm pretty damn sure Canfield is not made by Pacfiic. Banshee might be who you're thinking of.
> 
> Mexico.....is more like Americas diaper that needs to be changed.


I am pretty damn sure you would be wrong.

http://www.pacific-cycles.com/company.asp?catid=2&id=7

Pacific makes bikes for at least a dozen high end companies sold in the US.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2009)

ianjenn said:


> So awesome does that mean there are now 8-12 year olds welding bike for a bage of rice a day? Who knows I can only guess how far out they know of any Americans coming by the plant. Quick hide the kids!!
> 
> So I would rather pay my $$ to a welder based out of LA, New York, Utah etc. who is making real money and spending it here. Campy, and the other parts are made in developed countries with good labor standards. And they are nice!


Actually I can tell you first hand that welders in Taiwan at factories that make bikes that you probably have ridden get paid very well compared to even American welders. They are skilled labor just like anywhere else in the world and these companies are definitely not using kids to produce high end bikes.

An example without naming companies, a friend was just at the Taipei Bike Show a few weeks ago, and while there toured some of the factories that manufacture frames from some associated brands sold in the US.

The welders at these shops are paid by unit produced, an average of $4-$5 US per unit welded and most of the welders can average 40 frames in a day, which equals $160-$200 US per day and they work 6 days a week, no questions asked.

That equals between $960 and $1200 US per week, times 52 weeks totals between $50,000 and $62,000 US per year, which in Taiwan is a pretty good living.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Wow that's surprising. I thought the Canfields were handmade in Utah? Or at least they used to be.

As for the Mexico thing....been to Tijuana lately? Laredo? Juarez? Rosarito? Besides, if you can't take a joke, perhaps the internet isn't the right place for you...


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2009)

DHidiot said:


> Wow that's surprising. I thought the Canfields were handmade in Utah? Or at least they used to be..


Not since 2004 apparently.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Good to know. Wonder if they're still maintaining the same build quality.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Captain Snakebite said:


> Haha I just shot Mtn Dew out my nose when I saw that.


You "Blew the Dew"


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2009)

DHidiot said:


> Good to know. Wonder if they're still maintaining the same build quality.


I think that would be a question for anyone riding a 2004+ Canfield. It's been my experience that if you put a high end Taiwan made bike next to a high end US made bike, you cant tell the difference, other than I have seen more sloppy welds on US bikes than Taiwan ones.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

The welding usually isn't an issue, but more of a tooling/mitering/machining tolerance issue. Of course, the same is said with some US manufacturers too but we like to think that the smaller production runs warrant more attention to detail through the QC and inspection process.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2009)

DHidiot said:


> The welding usually isn't an issue, but more of a tooling/mitering/machining tolerance issue. Of course, the same is said with some US manufacturers too but we like to think that the smaller production runs warrant more attention to detail through the QC and inspection process.


You would be surprised how small of runs most companies do overseas. I know of 2 personally who do their frames in either batches of only 60 or 100 at a time.

If you are looking for companies doing large runs, you need to look at manufacturers like Kinesis, Giant and Merida.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Mexico is fvcked up, damn narcos


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## OldHouseMan (Dec 7, 2006)

I think any bike company who farms out work to China sucks!!! Unfortunately, for a few of the components, there is no choice other than to go with a farmed out piece of garbage. First, they (the manufacturers) do it to save a buck? But do they pass that on to you, hell no. The Canfield stuff (made overseas) fetches a pretty penny for sure; a Ventana, Turner or Intense (amongst others) can be had for a similar price and made in the U.S. Second, China has absolutely no enviromental, health or wage standards like the U.S., so it's kinda an unfair playing field.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

China is not the same as Taiwan.

Bikes made in China = Crap.
Bikes made in Taiwan = Very nice.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

:thumbsup:


_dw said:


> All e.thirteen SRS+ and LG1+ parts are manufactured and assembled right here in the USA. (Leominster, Massachusetts)


Glad I read this thread. It reminds me that I have something to order. :thumbsup:


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Man, this whole global economy concept is pretty rough on some people evidently.


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## JOURNEYC6 (Jun 7, 2008)

if chinise kids are welding these bikes......they are hellout of welders


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

tacubaya said:


> China is not the same as Taiwan.
> 
> Bikes made in China = Crap.
> Bikes made in Taiwan = Very nice.


According to the Chinese they are. It is a little irritating to see people get them confused though. Taiwan is the bike building capital of the world for a reason, the people who work there are extremely good at what they do, the infrastructure is in place, and yes the wages are cheaper but there is more to it than paying children bags of rice.

Plus, European and Canadian made are still not US made. Nobody's saving some chinese kids life by buying from Campy or Hope.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Clutchman83 said:


> Plus, European and Canadian made are still not US made. Nobody's saving some chinese kids life by buying from Campy or Hope.


But what about the free trade agreement


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## darkzeon (Jun 15, 2006)

Some people here are so confused about China and Taiwan. Taiwan in the 70's-80's used to knock off most US brand products, but at least they were good at it, now China is doing the same thing, but apparently not doing so good at it. 

Geographically Taiwan is not part of mainland China. People in Taiwan are not Chinese they are called Taiwanese. And yes we all eat rice, but I like pizza!


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

darkzeon said:


> Some people here are so confused about China and Taiwan. Taiwan in the 70's-80's used to knock off most US brand products, but at least they were good at it, now China is doing the same thing, but apparently not doing so good at it.
> 
> Geographically Taiwan is not part of mainland China. People in Taiwan are not Chinese they are called Taiwanese. And yes we all eat rice, but I like pizza!


But is it knockoff Pizza?


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## darkzeon (Jun 15, 2006)

006_007 said:


> But is it knockoff Pizza?


hahaha! Dough prepared in Taiwan, shipped to Italy to be filled with toppings, shipped back to Asia for serving!


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

006_007 said:


> But is it knockoff Pizza?


hahahahahahahahahahaha


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

In soviet Russia pizza eat you, staying on topic, I read a post somewhere on mtbr that said Taiwan could weld a ham sandwich to a phonebook. I thought it would be fitting on this topic.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

I think astrix and Versus bikes are made in the us, and their bikes are still affordable

Ok never mind on astrix they are tiawan, but does anyone know where versus bikes are made?


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## Nick_M2R (Oct 18, 2008)

Trek session 88
Giant glory's
Kona stabs
Transition Blindside

Oh wait, they arnt made in the US, but who cares? They are all awesome, high end performing bikes. Welders in Taiwan weld just aswell as you americans. If there was a frame made in Japan, ill take that anyday over a US frame


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## 8664 (Oct 17, 2005)

made in usa or made in asia is not a problem, if the concept is US like cannondale.. the problem i think is, do they make the judge more with 6061 and heat treatet? or go they to the cheaper 7000 stuff? and all this cnc piece on the judge??

i think the el cuervo with the redisgned geometry (2008) from go-ride will match!!


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## philw86 (Jul 18, 2005)

Hmm...this thread needs more pictures.

Just reiterating from DW that all of our plastic and metal bits are made 100% here in the USA, with most of it being right here in Mass. This allows us to ensure the highest quality in all of our products.

Cheers,
philip @ e*thirteen :thumbsup:


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## HTFR (Jan 11, 2007)

If I would have known that E13 was made in America I would have got that instead of my G2. 
I try to keep any major purchace NAFTA. I know I cant have all my money go back into America but I try to keep it as close as posible.


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## daisycutter (Sep 18, 2005)

MRP/White brothers stuff is made in the USA correct?


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## OldHouseMan (Dec 7, 2006)

daisycutter said:


> MRP/White brothers stuff is made in the USA correct?


MRP - I have no idea

White Brothers - Yes :thumbsup:


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## hampstead bandit (Feb 9, 2009)

*I think astrix and Versus bikes are made in the us, and their bikes are still affordable*

nope. Astrix is made by Pacific Cycles in TW who also manufacture Banshee and Canfield Bros, Niner, amongst other brands...


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## iRider (Nov 15, 2005)

Nick_M2R said:


> Welders in Taiwan weld just aswell as you americans.


But do they also post on here like Rick The Welder from Intense does?


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## seanzombie1336 (Jun 28, 2008)

While there's nothing wrong with bikes imported from other countries (including and perhaps especially developing countries), I'm quite happy with my Turner DHR.


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## dh_drew (Sep 9, 2008)

DHidiot said:


> It's Americas hat.


:thumbsup:


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

DHidiot said:


> It's Americas hat.


wrong


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## maximilian (May 13, 2008)

There are a lot more bikes welded in Taiwan than you can imagine....
iron horse (RIP)
specialized
transition
norco
tank
santa Cruz
yeti
((of course not all the products are made in Taiwan))
but does that bother? damn no...those bikes are still as good as it should be
so what's the point?


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## _dw (Jan 20, 2004)

daisycutter said:


> MRP/White brothers stuff is made in the USA correct?


e.thirteen is the *ONLY* USA made chain retention brand. You are more than welcome to stop by the shop and check out the shop if you are ever in the Leominster, MA area!

Don't get me wrong, I can totally understand why all of the other guide companies are making their stuff in Taiwan. It's incredibly difficult to remain cost competitive against all Taiwan built products and knockoffs, but with a lot of time and work e.thirteen's been able to pull it off.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

maximilian said:


> but does that bother? damn no...those bikes are still as good as it should be
> so what's the point?


It comes down to where you throw your money. Pay an American, or someone else...


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## dhtahoe (Mar 18, 2004)

blender said:


> yes, Frank just finished hand welding the first batch (20) of their new DH bikes.
> literally, like yesterday.


No way Frank can weld?


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

I have heard and seen on a forum or two that Jamis is made in the USA. I tried a bit of research before posting this, but I did not find a solid answer. It would be killer if it is true because I own a Diablo and as of last night a Parker. lol.. 

anyone know for sure?


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## xterrain (May 6, 2008)

Banshee MkII and Scythe. Nuff said.


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## remember1453 (Aug 20, 2007)

that would be decent living in America too.

So why not hire someone in the US? I know plenty of welders that would love to work for 62000 a year, who are competent and hard working people in California.

Assuming cost is why companies love to go to Taiwan, why are we still being asked to pay 2500-3000 dollars for a Taiwan made frame?



sixsixtysix said:


> That equals between $960 and $1200 US per week, times 52 weeks totals between $50,000 and $62,000 US per year, which in Taiwan is a pretty good living.


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## pinknugget (Jan 21, 2007)

If you are looking for an American made DH frame, you will have a hard time finding something that matches the quality of construction and attention to detail offered by Purgatory bikes. Granted, I am 100% biased and availability is limited, the machining is second to none and Mark's customer service can not be topped. Without a doubt, his bikes are not for everyone, but if you are one of the lucky few that owns a Purgatory you know exactly what I am talking about.


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## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

Sixsixtysix wrote,

''The welders at these shops are paid by unit produced, an average of $4-$5 US per unit welded and most of the welders can average 40 frames in a day, which equals $160-$200 US per day and they work 6 days a week, no questions asked.''

I'm pretty sure there is no welder on the planet that could weld 40 M3, or M6 frames in a day.
Folks that don't weld should'nt comment about folks that do weld, especially when it comes to quality of welds.
Nothing personal, and don't take it personal.
Aight ??
RTW.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

xterrain said:


> Banshee MkII and Scythe. Nuff said.


Swing and a miss, banshees are made in Tiawan

And does it not piss anyone else off that they pay a skilled welder in tiawan 5 dollars to weld an entire frame, which the company then turns around and sells to us for $2500-3500, thats why all three of my bikes have made in the usa stickers.


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## remember1453 (Aug 20, 2007)

Flystagg said:


> And does it not piss anyone else off that they pay a skilled welder in tiawan 5 dollars to weld an entire frame, which the company then turns around and sells to us for $2500-3500, thats why all three of my bikes have made in the usa stickers.


I decided to track down an older Bullit frame for that precise reason.

It's even worse when producers move production over there and then RAISE prices. And the situation turns hilarious a few years later when they raise prices again citing transportation costs.


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

Flystagg said:


> And does it not piss anyone else off that they pay a skilled welder in tiawan 5 dollars to weld an entire frame, which the company then turns around and sells to us for $2500-3500, thats why all three of my bikes have made in the usa stickers.


If they were selling a picture frame for 2500-3500 you might have a good point.


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

rickthewelder said:


> Sixsixtysix wrote,
> 
> ''The welders at these shops are paid by unit produced, an average of $4-$5 US per unit welded and most of the welders can average 40 frames in a day, which equals $160-$200 US per day and they work 6 days a week, no questions asked.''
> 
> ...


Maybe if bikes still looked like a Shockwave of old. But even then I doubt 40 in 2 days much less 1!


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## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

*Welding DH bikes........*

Heres how we do it in Temecula CA., show us how they do it in Taiwan.
Rick.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

The Taiwan welders aren't making an entire frame by themselves. The same welder is doing the same weld on numerous different bikes all day long all assembly line style, or the same section of a frame.


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## m-dub (Apr 22, 2005)

_dw said:


> e.thirteen is the *ONLY* USA made chain retention brand. You are more than welcome to stop by the shop and check out the shop if you are ever in the Leominster, MA area!
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I can totally understand why all of the other guide companies are making their stuff in Taiwan. It's incredibly difficult to remain cost competitive against all Taiwan built products and knockoffs, but with a lot of time and work e.thirteen's been able to pull it off.


What about Gammut? Dam thats why I bought it! Cudos to you sir for keeping it in the US, it does mean something to some of us.


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## remember1453 (Aug 20, 2007)

m-dub said:


> What about Gammut? Dam thats why I bought it! Cudos to you sir for keeping it in the US, it does mean something to some of us.


ditto

will buy a set this week, I haven't bought a new chain guide in years so it might be time.


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

sixsixtysix said:


> I am pretty damn sure you would be wrong.
> 
> https://www.pacific-cycles.com/company.asp?catid=2&id=7
> 
> Pacific makes bikes for at least a dozen high end companies sold in the US.


i've pretty much gotten the impression that to allot of these guys (smaller high end manufacturers like banshee and canfield) they feel that pacific cycles is one of the most dialed bike manufacturers on the planet.

banshee seams quite happy to brag in the blog about how awesome they thing pacific is, and have adorned the piece of artwork called the legend with pacific logo's.










i'm totally into supporting usa built machines (one of my favorite bragging points about my blk mrkt), and i'm totally into dissing chinese crapola, but without question some of the Taiwan manufactures have their $hit together.


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## dusthuffer (Nov 30, 2006)

First hand means you are a taiwanese welder. So this is not first or even second hand information. You are exaggerating your numbers but your point is valid.



sixsixtysix said:


> Actually I can tell you first hand that welders in Taiwan at factories that make bikes that you probably have ridden get paid very well compared to even American welders. They are skilled labor just like anywhere else in the world and these companies are definitely not using kids to produce high end bikes.
> 
> An example without naming companies, a friend was just at the Taipei Bike Show a few weeks ago, and while there toured some of the factories that manufacture frames from some associated brands sold in the US.
> 
> ...


----------



## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

Flystagg said:


> Swing and a miss, banshees are made in Tiawan
> 
> And does it not piss anyone else off that they pay a skilled welder in tiawan 5 dollars to weld an entire frame, which the company then turns around and sells to us for $2500-3500, thats why all three of my bikes have made in the usa stickers.


*Tariff Tax* or *Cap and Trade* down the road I bet! Well make that a tariff because China wont do cap and trade.


----------



## xterrain (May 6, 2008)

The fact that you guys have even bought a bike for over a grand is why these bikes prices continue to raise in price. My Norco Rampage was stickered at $2200 and I paid $762. Its the law of supply and demand...demand is high and since half of mountain biking is fashion and what bike you're on; driven by shallow misinformed individuals on the trail, makes the prices go up because the manufacturers know you'll pay.

I didn't swing and miss, I cracked a 400 foot spread. Banshee Legend MkII and Skythe are completely badass frames and are made by Pacific Bicycles. Your suggestion that Taiwanese laborers get paid crap is rediculous. I am probably one of a hand full of people on this forum that has been to Taiwan and seen how skilled laborers live. Its not bad at all compared to even America midwest standards. Now I know some of you are comparing their lifestyles to yours in California and all I have to say to you is 'come out of your idiosyncratic cave and see the light'.

For an example thats closer to home; I make just over $10 an hour...close to minimum wage in California; but here in Texas, being smart with my finances I can afford my home, have paid off my Xterra, ride a Norco, work 4 days a week, sink money into my new clothing company, donate to local parks and recreation department, buy wood to build trail, build a custom motorcycle, and travel out of the country omce or twice a year....so yeah, $10 aint much but I have a great lifestyle. So don't blatantly and ignorantly state that another country pays in rice, has massive child labor industry that also know how to weld, or that skills men get paid very very low...because its not true.


----------



## Tim F. (May 22, 2006)

shirk said:


> wrong


Ha!!!!, look were SOCAL is in those pants. SOCAL, Americas azz:lol:


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## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

rickthewelder said:


> Heres how we do it in Temecula CA., show us how they do it in Taiwan.
> Rick.


Funnily enough, it looks exactly the same in Taiwan.


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## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

builttoride said:


> Funnily enough, it looks exactly the same in Taiwan.


OK, excellent.
It's all the same.
So, tell us why you would send it over there when unemployment in the U.S.A. is @ 8% ?
And while your at it, why are'nt they designed over there ?
Or are you designers so far above structural fabricators in the U.S.A., who make most all their defensive systems ?
Back it up bro, and please don't take this personal !!!

RTW.


----------



## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

rickthewelder said:


> OK, excellent.
> It's all the same.
> So, tell us why you would send it over there when unemployment in the U.S.A. is @ 8% ?
> And while your at it, why are'nt they designed over there ?
> ...


Well put.


----------



## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

DHidiot said:


> Well put.


Thanks man.
I hope I weld your next bike.
RTW.


----------



## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Actually, I think you may have welded my current bike! I'm diggin' it.










Last 2 DH bikes have been a Turner DHR and a Sinister/FTW R9, and my 6" bike is a Sinister Splinter. I like to keep it local when I can...


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

rickthewelder said:


> Thanks man.
> I hope I weld your next bike.
> RTW.


You probably did my current bike:










...and I hope you weld my next frame. (Insert new DH bike spy photo here:  )


----------



## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

DHidiot said:


> Actually, I think you may have welded my current bike! I'm diggin' it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope I welded that black mthrfvckr........
When i saw that, I said shheeit. nice bike.
Anyway, nothing personal to my brothers in Taiwan, I just don't like '' poseurs'',
my French sucks.......
Dave T. is a great guy that cares about his designs.
I think it was about a year ago, when he changed the DHR from the square tube to the round tube, and I told him he had hit a homerun in my opinion.
Its all good...........
RTW.


----------



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

I know Rick did this one....my glass to you !!!! a few too many


----------



## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Yeah I'll say you had a few too many....

Mods, do crotchshots of SMT qualify for some temporary banzor??

Assclownery and SMT's open legs aside, I'll definitely provide a beer or 3 to RTW if he's in the neighborhood (Simi). Good sh!t on this M3 right here.


----------



## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> I know Rick did this one....my glass to you !!!! a few too many


Happy Easter Bob !!!!
I just laughed like I have'nt in way too long.
Glad you healed up.
Love ya man !!!
I'm gonna make that a screen saver
Thank Mikey for the fishnets.....
Rick.


----------



## jebfour (Sep 18, 2005)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> I know Rick did this one....my glass to you !!!! a few too many


Pics 1-2 are great and I love the color but could have done without pic three!

Love the color on that frame. If you have the numbers for that Powder Coat, please PM me (I recently had my frame PC'd on the blue equivalent)...


----------



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

jebfour said:


> Pics 1-2 are great and I love the color but could have done without pic three!
> 
> Love the color on that frame. If you have the numbers for that Powder Coat, please PM me (I recently had my frame PC'd on the blue equivalent)...


polished to a chrome like finish and then candy apple red


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

rickthewelder said:


> Happy Easter Bob !!!!
> I just laughed like I have'nt in way too long.
> Glad you healed up.
> Love ya man !!!
> ...


HAPPY EASTER RICK !!!!

riding up in Auburn today and represented very well for 6th time back on bike...oh laugh more


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

Everyone who is posting "But they make really nice frames in Taiwan, and they pay the welders really well" is completely missing the point of why you buy an American made frame.

Its called having some pride in your country, and wanting your money to help keep America on top of the totem pole in the global economy. I doubt anyone will be able to feel a difference in ride quality between a bike welded here vs Taiwan, but seeing as how the Taiwanese frames are just as expensive as the American ones I see no reason not to support American welders.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Yeah that is what annoys me the most. If overseas manufacturing is so damn cheap, how come we aren't seeing any of that discount translated on the higher end stuff?


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Flystagg said:


> Everyone who is posting "But they make really nice frames in tiawan, and they pay the welders really well" is completely missing the point of why you buy an american made frame.
> 
> Its called having some pride in your country, and wanting your money to help keep America on top of the totem pole in the global economy. I doubt anyone will be able to feel a difference in ride quality between a bike welded here vs tiawan, but seeing as how the tiawanees frames are just as expensive as the american ones I see no reason not to support american welders.


exactly:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


----------



## xterrain (May 6, 2008)

Living up to the name huh? Read post #8.


----------



## Tim F. (May 22, 2006)

pinknugget said:


> If you are looking for an American made DH frame, you will have a hard time finding something that matches the quality of construction and attention to detail offered by Purgatory bikes. Granted, I am 100% biased and availability is limited, the machining is second to none and Mark's customer service can not be topped. Without a doubt, his bikes are not for everyone, but if you are one of the lucky few that owns a Purgatory you know exactly what I am talking about.


DH Idiot can tell you a few things about Purgatory

Purgatory, UT's finest boarding facility for deviants!


----------



## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Huh??


----------



## remember1453 (Aug 20, 2007)

Flystagg said:


> y. I doubt anyone will be able to feel a difference in ride quality between a bike welded here vs tiawan, but seeing as how the tiawanees frames are just as expensive as the american ones I see no reason not to support american welders.


well said.:thumbsup:


----------



## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

Flystagg said:


> Everyone who is posting "But they make really nice frames in t*ai*wan, and they pay the welders really well" is completely missing the point of why you buy an *A*merican made frame.
> 
> It's called having some pride in your country, and wanting your money to help keep America on top of the totem pole in the global economy. I doubt anyone will be able to feel a difference in ride quality between a bike welded here vs t*ai*wan, but seeing as how the *taiwanese* frames are just as expensive as the *A*merican ones I see no reason not to support *A*merican welders.


*Fixed.*

Good point.  I could've saved several hundred dollars recently choosing between my Intense and an off-shore frame that was arguably better, but I kept my money here. BTW, I help sell both brands in question.


----------



## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

rickthewelder said:


> OK, excellent.
> It's all the same.
> So, tell us why you would send it over there when unemployment in the U.S.A. is @ 8% ?
> And while your at it, why are'nt they designed over there ?
> ...


There are a number of reasons that we manufacture our bikes out in Taiwan.

#1 The skills, labour and factory were already there, so there were less up front costs

#2 The materials we use are only avaliable out in the far east so we would have to pay to import them all seperately from different suppliers, which is expensive and would cost our customers.

#3 Nearly all the components are made out in Taiwan, so we would have to import them all seperately, which is expensive and would cost our customers.

#4 The skill level of manufacture at the factory we use is equal to anything in North America with perhaps a few exceptiongs of very small in house manufactures, but they come at a high cost.

#5 The factory allows us to make small batches (50 frames min) which gives us more flexibility.

#6 There are manufacturing prcoesses avaliable out there that are not avaliable in North America, (grades of hard anodizing, certain types of hydroforming etc), so again we avoid importing, or settling for second best.

#7 Overall costs are lower, so we can sell our bikes to costomers for less.

#8 Sourcing parts and components is much easier since they are nearly all manufactured in Taiwan.

#9 Shipping Globaly from Taiwan is cheaper.. again a cost saving past on to customers.

etc etc

I have nothing against manufacturing in North America or Europe, and would happily do so if the same product could be achieved to the same standard for the same price. I would love to have our own little factory and do everything in house... but that is not an option due to set up costs.

We have always manufactured in taiwan from day 1 as it was the best option for us then... and still is now.

At the end of the day the quality of product produced from our factory in Taiwan is as good if not better than just about any other bike manufacturer out there, and the costs are lower, and so the retail price is lower, which helps our customers, and at the end of the day our customers needs come first.


----------



## HTFR (Jan 11, 2007)

I will never be able to wrap my mind around this. I see DH frames, just the frames retailing for 3000+. When you can go to your Honda dealer and buy a frign DirtBike fro under $4000. That sh!t don't add up. Then companies out source to save money and there is no change in price. There is no way in hell some of these bikes should be this damn expesive. It is out of hand. If I didn't work at a shop and get EP deals, I would not ride MTB. Iv heard people argue that the market is so small that it's always limited production runs, but I know a bunch of people out there that ride BMX/urban just because the price tag for DH/FR is unreal. The younger kids trying to get in to the sports parents just laugh. And there are always people around trying to do DH/FR their XC bikes because of price. This is crazy!


----------



## Andrewpalooza (Dec 7, 2004)

sixsixtysix said:


> SuperCo and BMW are US, Chumba is Taiwan.


I worked in the ME shop here on campus, and I remember reading an article in a trade magazine (machining mag of some sort...) about Chumba's CNC "artistry". I was really surprised to see a bike manufacturer in the magazine to begin with, but I was under the impression they made at least some of their bikes on this shore? Or do they just prototype here? Granted this was about two years ago...


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## m-dub (Apr 22, 2005)

HTFR said:


> I will never be able to wrap my mind around this. I see DH frames, just the frames retailing for 3000+. When you can go to your Honda dealer and buy a frign DirtBike fro under $4000. That sh!t don't add up. "
> 
> What new moto is under 4K? Dam they are pushing 8k
> 
> ...


----------



## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Builttoride - All those reasons for making the bike overseas are all fine and dandy.....but the Legend frame is $3000+ MSRP?


----------



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Tim F. said:


> DH Idiot can tell you a few things about Purgatory
> 
> Purgatory, UT's finest boarding facility for deviants!


that was WCH not DHidiot


----------



## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

DHidiot said:


> Builttoride - All those reasons for making the bike overseas are all fine and dandy.....but the Legend frame is $3000+ MSRP?


Yeah it is an expensive frame to manufacture due to tight tolerances and machine time. We got a quote for manufacturing in North America actually, just out of curiosity, but it would have made the MSRP almost to $4200. So we stayed in Taiwan.


----------



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

builttoride said:


> There are a number of reasons that we manufacture our bikes out in Taiwan.
> 
> #1 The skills, labour and factory were already there, so there were less up front costs *(where is the lower price to consumer then)*
> 
> ...


explain more to me please


----------



## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

I'm not going to go all E-engineer on you, but there isn't anything THAT robust on that Legend frame to warrant that kind of manufacturing price other than the shock cradle near the BB and the linear shafts for the bushing pivots, and that really shouldn't be accounting for $1k over any other dual link frames available at US-made rates or Taiwan-made rates. Something just doesn't add up with that.

I'm not being critical or anything, but it's an observation I've made and an observation lots of others have made. We all thought the same thing - the design of the bike looks really solid buuuuuut the price?


----------



## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> #1 The skills, labour and factory were already there, so there were less up front costs (where is the lower price to consumer then)
> 
> #2 The materials we use are only avaliable out in the far east so we would have to pay to import them all seperately from different suppliers, which is expensive and would cost our customers. (where is the lower price to the consumer)
> 
> ...


The prices are lower... that is my point. They may seem high, but that is because we make small batches as we are a small boutique company. If we sold as many frames as some of the big brands, they prices would drop a lot... so you should be asking... why do bikes like the V10 and Demo series etc cost more than our frames even tho our quality is at least as good and we do small batch production compared to their greater batch size?

As for things like hard anodizing... yes I totally agree that that the process is harardous to the environment and trust me if a new process comes along that is better i will be jumping on it!)... but what is worse... having things hard anodized in Taiwan, and driven half an hour down the road. Or having things hard anodized in taiwan, and shipped to north america to be put into North american made bikes?


----------



## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

DHidiot said:


> I'm not going to go all E-engineer on you, but there isn't anything THAT robust on that Legend frame to warrant that kind of manufacturing price other than the shock cradle near the BB and the linear shafts for the bushing pivots, and that really shouldn't be accounting for $1k over any other dual link frames available at US-made rates or Taiwan-made rates. Something just doesn't add up with that.
> 
> I'm not being critical or anything, but it's an observation I've made and an observation lots of others have made. We all thought the same thing - the design of the bike looks really solid buuuuuut the price?


Well we do use expensive aluminium alloys, and machine some parts from large single billets (will be forging in future when we can justify tooling costs), we have to manufacture pivot parts to high tollerances much greater than those used for bearings, as we use bushings on the legend. we use custom hydroformed tubes, and cold form extruded internally ribbed stays etc etc. these things increase performance, but come at a price.

Actually at $3000 we are cheaper than a lot of comparable bikes, for example...
Yeti 303 DH $3870
M6 $3150

And our MSRP is before any store discounts, and both those companies make larger numbers of frames, so costs should be lower. You have to pay a bit more to have a boutique bike of equivalent quality, that is just how economics work I'm afraid. But for that you get the perks of dealing with a small company.


----------



## amorphous (Jul 7, 2006)

builttoride said:


> As for things like hard anodizing... yes I totally agree that that the process is harardous to the environment and trust me if a new process comes along that is better i will be jumping on it!)... but what is worse... having things hard anodized in Taiwan, and driven half an hour down the road. Or having things hard anodized in taiwan, and shipped to north america to be put into North american made bikes?


on this last bit - wouldn't it all be about equal given the final destination is the same?


----------



## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

well, not really. For a start not all our frames are shipped to North America, we ship globally. 

And buying parts in from all around the world will always cost more money than getting them driven just down the road. The final cost of extra weight on shipping does't count as it is done by volume when shipping containers of bikes, we pay per container.


----------



## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

The Yeti is kind of it's own thing in my mind. Has a ton of hardware that other linked bikes don't have. Same with the Foes 2:1 Mono - has that damn proprietary shock that feels like sticky butt.

The M6 I don't have a justification for on price unfortunately. I really don't know why that's so damn expensive.

Figure the DHR is $2800 MSRP. Last I checked a Ventana El Cuervo is around the same. The M3's were retailing around there too. The Sinister R9 was retailing for $2400 USD when it was still being sold, and I think FTW's new bike will probably be between there and $2800, though it doesn't have the same amount of tooling/hardware.

Boutique and Pacific just don't seem to fit well together in my mind. I don't have any reasoning for that other than it's made by a mass producer in Taiwan - the design might be boutique and the production numbers might be as well, but the production doesn't feel like it is.

So figure Yeti and Intense and Foes are the most expensive US made bikes with real production runs (not custom one-offs), and they are still doing it for less than $4k with hydroforming, proprietary machined parts, unique hardware, non-standard manufacturing processes, or any combination of the above. I'm just not seeing how the Legend could add up to that much more with those few minor differences and nothing proprietary and nothing beyond a parallel linkage (no royalty costs here right?).

Al costs are fairly small on the scale of a total frame cost, and keeping the pivots to half-thousanths instead of 1-2 thousanths is a small bit more on the tooling end (for CNC lathe work that tolerance is usually a negligible difference in price).

I can understand you'd probably need a bigger investment in forging tooling once you start doing larger runs and everything, but it just seems excessive. I'd still love to ride one though.


----------



## rep_1969 (Mar 25, 2004)

HTFR said:


> I will never be able to wrap my mind around this. I see DH frames, just the frames retailing for 3000+. When you can go to your Honda dealer and buy a frign DirtBike fro under $4000. That sh!t don't add up. Then companies out source to save money and there is no change in price. There is no way in hell some of these bikes should be this damn expesive. It is out of hand. If I didn't work at a shop and get EP deals, I would not ride MTB. Iv heard people argue that the market is so small that it's always limited production runs, but I know a bunch of people out there that ride BMX/urban just because the price tag for DH/FR is unreal. The younger kids trying to get in to the sports parents just laugh. And there are always people around trying to do DH/FR their XC bikes because of price. This is crazy!


I didn't know they cost this much now days either!!!

http://powersports.honda.com/2009/crf450r/compare.aspx


----------



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> I know Rick did this one....my glass to you !!!! a few too many


and the new one


----------



## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

"Figure the DHR is $2800 MSRP. Last I checked a Ventana El Cuervo is around the same. The M3's were retailing around there too. The Sinister R9 was retailing for $2400 USD when it was still being sold, and I think FTW's new bike will probably be between there and $2800, though it doesn't have the same amount of tooling/hardware."


The first batch of sinister F-bombs were shipped out for $2200 a piece with rockshox vivid shocks. Frank claims they are stiffer than the R-9. (This may have been special pricing for the first batch of 20 frames, but I sure wish I had $2200 for a new DH bike right about now):thumbsup:


----------



## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

builttoride said:


> Yeah it is an expensive frame to manufacture due to tight tolerances and machine time. We got a quote for manufacturing in North America actually, just out of curiosity, but it would have made the MSRP almost to $4200. So we stayed in Taiwan.


builttoride, I feel kind of bad that you are catching so much flak in this thread, banshee designs sick bikes, and I realize for smaller companies like yours it is much easier to farm out production that start up you own shop. CNC machines, and all the other required tools are freaky expensive, regardless of the people who run them.

I am much more upset with companies like cannondale, and santacruz, and chumba who had shops in the US then moved to Taiwan to cut costs, but still raised frame prices

The Legend is a work of art, and that is great for people who can afford it. Maybe you could design a legend mark II with out all the extra CNC work, and exotic manufacturing processes, but with the same geometry, and suspension, with a frame price in line with banshee's other down to earth rigs. (half the job of engineers is cutting manufacturing costs after all) The Rune is a great value IMO


----------



## HTFR (Jan 11, 2007)

DHidiot said:


> The Yeti is kind of it's own thing in my mind. Has a ton of hardware that other linked bikes don't have. Same with the Foes 2:1 Mono - has that damn proprietary shock that feels like sticky butt.
> 
> The M6 I don't have a justification for on price unfortunately. I really don't know why that's so damn expensive.
> 
> ...


This idiot makes some good points.  Someboby is getting ripped off. I don't know if it is, the companies or the consumer. But these high costs don't ad up to me and never will. If there will ever be a hope to get this sport popular in America somebody has got to get these prices down atleast 50%. I thought the company making the cast frame (imperial?) was going to try and that thing is just as expesive as anything else out there.


----------



## darkzeon (Jun 15, 2006)

I've read that this bike got stolen in a bike fest from the Philippines, was this a demo bike from Banshee? We'll try and lookout for it, I think this is the only Legend bike here in the country.


----------



## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Flystagg said:


> builttoride, I feel kind of bad that you are catching so much flak in this thread, banshee designs sick bikes, and I realize for smaller companies like yours it is much easier to farm out production that start up you own shop. CNC machines, and all the other required tools are freaky expensive, regardless of the people who run them.
> 
> I am much more upset with companies like cannondale, and santacruz, and chumba who had shops in the US then moved to Taiwan to cut costs, but still raised frame prices
> 
> The Legend is a work of art, and that is great for people who can afford it. Maybe you could design a legend mark II with out all the extra CNC work, and exotic manufacturing processes, but with the same geometry, and suspension, with a frame price in line with banshee's other down to earth rigs. (half the job of engineers is cutting manufacturing costs after all) The Rune is a great value IMO


Yeah I don't mean to be giving him a ton of crap since I do like the design, but it would be the icing on the cake to be made locally.

See, when I think of boutique brands, I think of stuff like Intense, Foes, Turner, Sinister, etc etc. The guys who are putting in the blood and sweat making the bike are the same guys who are RIDING THE BIKES. Maybe some of that blood and sweat drips into the welds while they're cooling and makes us like them more, who knows.

Cdale, Chumba, and SC are the pinnacles of sellouts - basically an embarrassment to US manufacturers. Start importing and jacking up prices.


----------



## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

DHidiot said:


> The Yeti is kind of it's own thing in my mind. Has a ton of hardware that other linked bikes don't have. Same with the Foes 2:1 Mono - has that damn proprietary shock that feels like sticky butt.
> 
> The M6 I don't have a justification for on price unfortunately. I really don't know why that's so damn expensive.
> 
> ...


Pacific are really a very small manufacturer in taiwan, they produce only a small fraction of what the big factories produce, as they spend more time on quality. If you saw the size of the factory you would see what I mean. It is a small scale, small volume, high end boutique manufacturer.

One of the reasons why the legend costs so much, is that the shock basement ares is all machined from large blocks of 7005 Al alloy. This takes time and money. I am willing to bet that no other well known DH frame has anything close to as much machining done. As I say, we want to switch to forging, but first we need to know that we can justify the up front costs.

I did consider making the legend without the extra material removed to create the I beam cross section. This would have saved a bit of cost, but would have also increased weight. and the legend is designed to be a no compromise world cup level DH bike. It is an engineering project for me, kind of like the bugatti veron is for the VW group.

No we don't pay loyalt costs to anyone. I would refuse to ever do that. For example the license for one of the well known linkage names would end up costing our customer around $250 per frame. What a waste of money in my opinion when something that works just as well can be be done without this extra cost.


----------



## rep_1969 (Mar 25, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> and the new one


JEALOUS!!!! No M6 for you SMT? I'm surprised.


----------



## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

taiwan and china bikes look and feel cheap. chopped extrusions, crappy hardware. Wholesale buyers of chinese goods have to watch their bikes being built to keep from getting ripped off. I get chinese frames in for repair and the tubes are usually extruded crap polished on the outside. The importers were having a great time. buy a frame for $25.00 and sell it for $500.00 how will they make money when the chinese don't need "pasty face" front men to sell goods? You really smart guys should contact the chinese directly, start your own brand. send them your current import bike and get copies made. it's easy. 

It takes me 3.5 hours to weld an F-bomb frame. I will buy your insurance, shop at your store and wear your clothes with the money I earn


----------



## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

I don't know if it is true but I was told Sapa was to end bike production and close in the near future.


----------



## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

verticult said:


> taiwan and china bikes look and feel cheap. chopped extrusions, crappy hardware. Wholesale buyers of chinese goods have to watch their bikes being built to keep from getting ripped off. I get chinese frames in for repair and the tubes are usually extruded crap polished on the outside. The importers were having a great time. buy a frame for $25.00 and sell it for $500.00 how will they make money when the chinese don't need "pasty face" front men to sell goods? You really smart guys should contact the chinese directly, start your own brand. send them your current import bike and get copies made. it's easy.
> 
> It takes me 3.5 hours to weld an F-bomb frame. I will buy your insurance, shop at your store and wear your clothes with the money I earn


Haha, that may well apply to some frames, especially catalogue bikes, but it definately does not apply to all frames!


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

DHidiot said:


> Mods, do crotchshots of SMT qualify for some temporary banzor??


Good god I hope so! If any of the newbs on this board wonder why everyone gives SMT some much grief, well I submit exhibit C (pic #3).

'nuff said.


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## cdburch (Apr 25, 2007)

verticult said:


> It takes me 3.5 hours to weld an F-bomb frame. I will buy your insurance, shop at your store and wear your clothes with the money I earn


this is the real crux of the argument. all other things being equal, i would rather keep my money local. thats why i'm rocking my 06 us-made vp free for another year and saving my pennies to buy something made here (most likely either a superco, or intense, but that's another conversation entirely) instead of buying something made in Taiwan, that while more affordable, and arguably of about the same quality as many us-made frames, sends my money out of, instead of building, our economy.


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## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

rep_1969 said:


> I didn't know they cost this much now days either!!!
> 
> http://powersports.honda.com/2009/crf450r/compare.aspx


And last I checked you couldn't show up at a pro supercross event and race one of those either. We've got a pretty rare sport where 95% of the world-class pros are riding stock off-the-shelf product. Yes, there'll always be a few guys out there with custom geo or custom tubing/links, but the fact that for $3k you can buy the exact same frame that some of the top 10 riders in the world are on is pretty cool.


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## seanzombie1336 (Jun 28, 2008)

verticult said:


> taiwan and china bikes look and feel cheap. chopped extrusions, crappy hardware. Wholesale buyers of chinese goods have to watch their bikes being built to keep from getting ripped off. I get chinese frames in for repair and the tubes are usually extruded crap polished on the outside. The importers were having a great time. buy a frame for $25.00 and sell it for $500.00 how will they make money when the chinese don't need "pasty face" front men to sell goods? You really smart guys should contact the chinese directly, start your own brand. send them your current import bike and get copies made. it's easy.
> 
> It takes me 3.5 hours to weld an F-bomb frame. I will buy your insurance, shop at your store and wear your clothes with the money I earn


ATM putting money into China's hands may be ten fold more valuable than putting money into the US economy.

Us importing more of their goods will help keep China convinced to invest in the US dollar, something necessary to keep US the world hegemony.

I promise, things aren't as simple as they seem.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

verticult said:


> taiwan and china bikes look and feel cheap. chopped extrusions, crappy hardware. Wholesale buyers of chinese goods have to watch their bikes being built to keep from getting ripped off. I get chinese frames in for repair and the tubes are usually extruded crap polished on the outside. The importers were having a great time. buy a frame for $25.00 and sell it for $500.00 how will they make money when the chinese don't need "pasty face" front men to sell goods? You really smart guys should contact the chinese directly, start your own brand. send them your current import bike and get copies made. it's easy.
> 
> It takes me 3.5 hours to weld an F-bomb frame. I will buy your insurance, shop at your store and wear your clothes with the money I earn


Amen to that Frank!


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## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

cdburch said:


> this is the real crux of the argument. all other things being equal, i would rather keep my money local. thats why i'm rocking my 06 us-made vp free for another year and saving my pennies to buy something made here (most likely either a superco, or intense, but that's another conversation entirely) instead of buying something made in Taiwan, that while more affordable, and arguably of about the same quality as many us-made frames, sends my money out of, instead of building, our economy.


Are you sure that your VP free is US made? I wasn't aware that any Santa cruz's were made in USA... maybe that is something that has changed since 2006 tho, so correct me if I am wrong.


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## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2003)

Flystagg said:


> "Figure the DHR is $2800 MSRP. Last I checked a Ventana El Cuervo is around the same. The M3's were retailing around there too. The Sinister R9 was retailing for $2400 USD when it was still being sold, and I think FTW's new bike will probably be between there and $2800, though it doesn't have the same amount of tooling/hardware."


We've got USA made Turner DHRs for $1799 and the Ventana El Cuervo just came down in price to $1995, but we'll match the DHR price if you ask nice.

DHR http://www.go-ride.com/SPD/turner-dhr--160B0000-1131418755.jsp

El Cuervo http://www.go-ride.com/SPD/ventana-el-cuervo--13F50000-1116899930.jsp


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## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

seanzombie1336 said:


> ATM putting money into China's hands may be ten fold more valuable than putting money into the US economy.
> 
> Us importing more of their goods will help keep China convinced to invest in the US dollar, something necessary to keep US the world hegemony.
> 
> I promise, things aren't as simple as they seem.


a very good an well eductaed point!


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## daisycutter (Sep 18, 2005)

_"ATM putting money into China's hands may be ten fold more valuable than putting money into the US economy.

Us importing more of their goods will help keep China convinced to invest in the US dollar, something necessary to keep US the world hegemony.

I promise, things aren't as simple as they seem"_

This system is perhaps the greatest weakness USA has. We are buying their crap and they are buying our treasurey bonds. They are in fact buying up america. Half the TRUMP buildings in NYC are actually owned by Asian investors. The past 30 years have resulted in the biggest transfer of wealth in history. 30 years ago were majoy companies such as Bank America, AIG,General Motors going bankrupt or nearly broke? We need to wake up to the fact that the USA is in trouble and the world hegmony has made us weaker not stronger. Nondemcratic countries have prospered over that time. Russia, China are much stronger now then they were 30 years ago.


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## atomicAdam (Sep 19, 2005)

sixsixtysix said:


> Actually I can tell you first hand that welders in Taiwan at factories that make bikes that you probably have ridden get paid very well compared to even American welders. They are skilled labor just like anywhere else in the world and these companies are definitely not using kids to produce high end bikes.
> 
> An example without naming companies, a friend was just at the Taipei Bike Show a few weeks ago, and while there toured some of the factories that manufacture frames from some associated brands sold in the US.
> 
> ...


Yeah ianjenn, You are really off base on some of your comments. I suggest you travel to Taiwan, at least, and check it out for yourself.


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## BRMBA MONKEY! (Aug 9, 2007)

First, I want to thank everyone whose discussed bike manufacturing in this thread so far, and that all discussions have been rather civil for the most part.

As far as I know, 2006 was the last production year of the VP-Free design, of which all of them were made here in the U.S. Earlier this year my LBS informed me that all of Santa Cruz's bikes except for the V-10 and the Stigmata are now being produced out of taiwan and assembled at their headquarters here.


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## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

*Intense 951*

The latest all U.S. made DH bike.
Go to Itensecycles.com
951
Rick.


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## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

builttoride said:


> Well we do use expensive aluminium alloys, and machine some parts from large single billets (will be forging in future when we can justify tooling costs), we have to manufacture pivot parts to high tollerances much greater than those used for bearings, as we use bushings on the legend. we use custom hydroformed tubes, and cold form extruded internally ribbed stays etc etc. these things increase performance, but come at a price.
> 
> Actually at $3000 we are cheaper than a lot of comparable bikes, for example...
> Yeti 303 DH $3870
> ...


Cheaper,
at least your honest.
RTW.


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

BRMBA MONKEY! said:


> Earlier this year my LBS informed me that all of Santa Cruz's bikes except for the V-10 and the Stigmata are now being produced out of taiwan and assembled at their headquarters here.


Made by Giant actually... :skep:


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

rickthewelder said:


> The latest all U.S. made DH bike.
> Go to Itensecycles.com
> 951
> Rick.


Rick, a big thumbs up to your involvement with this frame. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## BRMBA MONKEY! (Aug 9, 2007)

Thanks for the correction cliffy


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

rickthewelder said:


> The latest all U.S. made DH bike.
> Go to Itensecycles.com
> 951
> Rick.


Is it just my computer or are the links to the info on the 951 not up yet
Also just curious, will this frame be a replacement for the socom, or m6 (unlikely), cause 3 8+ inch travel bikes is quite the selection.


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## blackprophet19 (Apr 18, 2008)

i try and get the best bang 4 my buck....and so far my taiwan frame has been the best frame ive had.


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## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

rickthewelder said:


> Cheaper,
> at least your honest.
> RTW.


cheaper to the customer yeah... as in more affordable. Maybe cheaper implies something differently in America?


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## grimm (Jul 2, 2004)

Alot of prejudice going on in this thread..


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## mullet dew (Jun 4, 2008)

remember1453 said:


> that would be decent living in America too.
> 
> So why not hire someone in the US? I know plenty of welders that would love to work for 62000 a year, who are competent and hard working people in California.
> 
> Assuming cost is why companies love to go to Taiwan, why are we still being asked to pay 2500-3000 dollars for a Taiwan made frame?


Plenty of reasons, that 62k an american takes home costs the company way more than 62k, social security, benefits, workers comp etc.


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## remember1453 (Aug 20, 2007)

mullet dew said:


> Plenty of reasons, that 62k an american takes home costs the company way more than 62k, social security, benefits, workers comp etc.


but he also pays income taxes, shops at the local store, buys a car from a local dealer ship, and pay property tax to support local schools and services.

Not that any of that would matter to anyone...


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## Pslide (Jul 3, 2006)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> explain more to me please


Yeah! We all have seen the Banshee helicopter flying you to and from your oceanfront home with the lambo out front... 

Has anyone ever got rich by making bikes on a small scale? Might that be a clue to those who think they are getting overcharged?

Hey Frank (the welder), can you send the Banshee guys a quote for building the Legend please? THX! 

While I may be being cynical here, I do hope we can bring more manuf. back into the states, not only for bikes, but all industry...


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## Leethal (Feb 5, 2004)

I thought the V-10 was the remaining holdout still being built by Sappa in the US???


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## Juklano (Oct 2, 2006)

Pslide said:


> While I may be being cynical here, I do hope we can bring more manuf. back into the states, not only for bikes, but all industry...


America will never ever go back to manufacturing. You can thank increased minimum wage for that.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

I'd sure hope that they pay skilled welders and machinists more than minimum wage  
I will grant that the social security, workers comp, and unemployment insurance in this country are pretty ridiculous.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Added bonus to locally made frames - I rode trails all afternoon with the guy who hand welded my previous DH bike and my present 6" bike (Sinister R9 and Splinter MX), FTW.

Good times.


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## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

...


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## BRMBA MONKEY! (Aug 9, 2007)

Well, I have to say with the release of the new Intense 951, I'm strongly looking in that direction.

It is unfortunate that so many people in this thread have tried to bring up the issue of outsourcing production to other countries, one of which is Taiwan, where many of todays bike company's bikes come from. I have nothing against Taiwanese made bikes, I have had three different bikes manufactured there and have absolutely no complaints about the workmanship and detail that has gone into those frames. My intent of starting this thread was to limit discussion to "made in America" downhill frames. Downhill frames tend to be the most expensive frames among the various types of bikes, and it doesn't really matter if it were made here in the U.S. or abroad, ALL downhill frames are expensive! I just figure if I am going to buy a frame only and then build up my bike, I would like my dollars spent to stay here and help out our economy at a time when we could really use domestic support.

Finally, of the companies suggested so far, I have been looking strongest at Intense and Turner. In my bikes I prefer a well designed pedal platform that also diminishes brake and pedal feedback (i.e. VPP, DW, or FSR). Of those suspensions I only know of two that are still made domestically; Intense and Turner. Keep up with the discussion, I think we all benefit from these types of open forums, and I would still like any direct input anyone has towards my frame selection.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Checked out the Sinister F-Bomb today in the flesh and in the dirt. Really outdid my expectations.

SUPER light (7# I believe?)
Retarded stiff - I went behind the bike today on the trail and watched. No deflection at all where I see rear wheel wander with other bikes.
Pedals VERY actively, single pivot that is very cleverly placed
100% hand-made in the U.S.
$2200 MSRP

WICKED good race bike


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## Rb (Feb 28, 2007)

rickthewelder said:


> Yea it does, and heres what it implies, your paying maybe 15 bucks to get that frame welded, and that might be high ?
> You posted that your equivalent to an M6 is only $150 '' more advantageous to the customer''.
> You've got to be sh!tting me.
> Look at the 2 bikes.
> ...


*DING!*

Popcorn is ready......


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

yup intense 951 FRO 2700 bucks
951 non FRO 2400=

I think intense knew they had to bring their DH frame price down, this looks like a nice solution


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## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

Pslide said:


> Yeah! We all have seen the Banshee helicopter flying you to and from your oceanfront home with the lambo out front...


Hahaha, oh man, that would be great. as it is I can barely afford to get on the bus!


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## KillerSloth (Apr 21, 2008)

What I think is funny is that the LBS that sells Giants (which will hopefully be my next bike) always mentions how the Giants don't make noise (squeaking, etc) like the Santa Cruz bikes do, yet Giant makes most of the Santa Cruz bikes... I need to bring that up next time I talk to him. lol


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## maximilian (May 13, 2008)

sodak06 said:


> I have heard and seen on a forum or two that Jamis is made in the USA. I tried a bit of research before posting this, but I did not find a solid answer. It would be killer if it is true because I own a Diablo and as of last night a Parker. lol..
> 
> anyone know for sure?


Jamis is made in Taiwan:thumbsup:


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## JOURNEYC6 (Jun 7, 2008)

My conclusion:

-99% of the bikes are made in Taiwan
-You don't have to be an American to weld good.
-Your i-phone is made in China, and is one of the best phones.:thumbsup:


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## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

JOURNEYC6 said:


> My conclusion:
> 
> -99% of the bikes are made in Taiwan
> -You don't have to be an American to weld good.
> -Your i-phone is made in China, and is one of the best phones.:thumbsup:


What do you do for a living ? And, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you ?
Thanks in advance, bro.
RTW.


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## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

rickthewelder said:


> What do you do for a living ? And, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you ?
> Thanks in advance, bro.
> RTW.


Never mind.
Thanks,
Rick.


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## tozovr (Jul 26, 2006)

DHgnaR said:


> Is Sinister still in the US? I thought they were moving production to Canada?


As Blender said, Frank just finished a batch of the new F-Bomb. Currently the GRUITR is hand made in Canada (just a day trip in the car for us). Everything else is all Frankie Torches


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## tozovr (Jul 26, 2006)

JOURNEYC6 said:


> My conclusion:
> 
> -99% of the bikes are made in Taiwan
> -You don't have to be an American to weld good.
> -Your i-phone is made in China, and is one of the best phones.:thumbsup:


I usually stay away from this one, but here I go...

Taiwan frames/bikes are not welded poorly as a general rule. Most folks beef is (or should be) that the cost is far less to build a frame there, yet the customer rarely sees that savings passed on to them.


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## chibow (Mar 3, 2004)

Versus bikes are designed in the US by a US company. Prototypes are made here, however all theirs actual frames are Made in Taiwan. I really like my Blitz 2 as it is a hell of a nice bike but when I got my frame in and saw the made in Taiwan sticker on the bottom I was VERY disappointed.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

man thats another one I thought was America based, the list is a lot shorter than I thought it was. Maybe its time we stop ragging on Ellsworth so much, no matter how big a tool he may seem to be he did keep production here

and *JOURNEYC6, *you obviously didn't read the previous posts your point has already been addressed. There are many reasons why we want American made products in addition to better quality


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

look if you ain't getting a break on price...then fvck twain...buy USA...besides Intense is making some great bikes


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## chibow (Mar 3, 2004)

I agree 100% which is why when I decided to build up an all mountain bike I went with an intense 6.6. Sadly, it seems that one of the biggest things I have noticed since the economy took a nose dive is how few things are actually made in the US.

Previously I would have purchased a product because I liked it or read positive reviews on the item, but now...made in the USA is at the top of my list when buying anything.


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## JOURNEYC6 (Jun 7, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickthewelder
What do you do for a living ? And, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you ?
Thanks in advance, bro.
RTW. 


Never mind.
Thanks,
Rick.

34, Paramedic/FF


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## JOURNEYC6 (Jun 7, 2008)

man thats another one I thought was America based, the list is a lot shorter than I thought it was. Maybe its time we stop ragging on Ellsworth so much, no matter how big a tool he may seem to be he did keep production here

and JOURNEYC6, you obviously didn't read the previous posts your point has already been addressed. There are many reasons why we want American made products in addition to better quality

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I'm reading all the posts, but some guys keep bashing about Taiwan, and China. We live on a global economy market. I support American products, but let see...., I drive an American Icon (C6 Corvette) and some parts of the American Icon are made on China.
Again....GLOBAL MARKET.


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## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

JOURNEYC6 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by rickthewelder
> What do you do for a living ? And, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you ?
> Thanks in advance, bro.
> ...


Cool, your job is generic too.
God bless you for what you do.
And the I-phone comes from NorCal.

RTW.


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## coiler8 (Aug 25, 2006)

DHidiot said:


> I'm pretty damn sure Canfield is not made by Pacfiic. Banshee might be who you're thinking of.
> 
> Mexico.....is more like Americas diaper that needs to be changed.


**Correction**


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## motorcyclemike (Nov 17, 2008)

transition and fetish cycles


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## Northshore0909 (Jul 25, 2008)

motorcyclemike said:


> transition and fetish cycles


are made in taiwan


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## themarsvolta55 (Dec 23, 2004)

"Folks that don't weld should'nt comment about folks that do weld, especially when it comes to quality of welds.
Nothing personal, and don't take it personal.
Aight ??
RTW."


:thumbsup:


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

themarsvolta55 said:


> "Folks that don't weld should'nt comment about folks that do weld, especially when it comes to quality of welds.
> Nothing personal, and don't take it personal.
> Aight ??
> RTW."


when i'm layin down hard earned cheddar for those welds... comments will be made.


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