# Reporting illegal E-bike usage



## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

Yesterday whilst on my ride, I came across a man with what appeared to be a very powerful E-fat-bike. I was riding at 22mph and he overtook me at around 24mph. Out of curiosity of what he was riding as it was also noisy, I followed him for about 1 km and once I realised it was indeed an E-bike, I tried to stop him to let him know his bike was not allowed on the path. Predictably, he pretended he could not hear me when I called out to him and he started to accelerate a little. 


I continued to chase but had to slow down as we approached a rest/picnic area filled with families + their little children on the bikes/tricycles criss-crossing. However, this man continued to ride through at 25mph weaving through the kids. It was shocking


In my country, E-bike operation in public places is illegal. I have no issues with the bikes in general but its these kinds of people that scare me. He could have done alot of damage on his bike. It's big, heavy, fast and he's stupid.


Sadly, I did manage to get a photo but upon inspection, it was blurred. 


What can you do ?


From now on, will always mount my Go Pro


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## Speeder500 (Oct 9, 2012)

I wouldn't make such a big deal about it as he was not riding that fast. E-bikes are here to stay and there will just be more and more of them as they are getting more popular and cheaper. 

I don't think reporting will do anything, law enforcement won't bother and even if they did they wouldn't know he was driving an ebike, especially because when ebikers see any law enforcement they slow down and pedal.


Not worth continuing to let it bother you, all it will result in is you getting into a confrontation and an assault charge on yourself.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I wonder if you do the same with the roadies that weave in n out going 25+ on the bike path ??


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> I wonder if you do the same with the roadies that weave in n out going 25+ on the bike path ??


It's not illegal to pass people, and unless there is a posted speed limit, going 25mph is perfectly legal.

Whereas there are plenty of places where, regardless of speed, riding an e-bike is always illegal.

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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Oh its ok to ride like a dick just not on a e bike ummm .


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

OP sounds made-up to me.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> Oh its ok to ride like a dick just not on a e bike ummm .


One IS NOT breaking the law, the other IS breaking the law.

Do you understand the difference?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

You could always shoot him , stick a stick in his spokes, steel or wood , hold him down and steal his battery then throw it off a cliff, and lets not forget the public shameing .


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> You could always shoot him , stick a stick in his spokes, steel or wood , hold him down and steal his battery then throw it off a cliff, and lets not forget the public shameing .


Why would we do that, when we can simply report the person to the relevant authorities?


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## Speeder500 (Oct 9, 2012)

I just wanted to share my experience. I am very much into Ebikes but I can understand why regular bikers hate them.

Simply human nature to be envious. I was on a trip in Cambodia to Angkor Wat and had to rent a regular bicycle because I was cheap. When I was riding around I saw people riding the electric bikes and without thinking my gut response was a feeling of hate towards them.


I found it quite interesting that this feeling would come over me because I own an ebike and have no issues with people riding them. However, when I was busting my ass pedaling this regular bicycle around and seeing these electric bike riders joyfully riding around with ease, envy and jealously came over me subconsciously. It was like they were cheating. 

Read the original posters post, he specifically said he was passed. I am sure he was busting his ass at a good speed and then some guy with an ebike, and a fat bike at that, joyfully passes him with ease. This really pissed him off because he is busting his ass pedaling. 

I totally understand the hate, but the regular bikers have the option of riding an ebike so they should not be consumed with this hate.

I assume this is just human nature at work.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Speeder500 said:


> I just wanted to share my experience. I am very much into Ebikes but I can understand why regular bikers hate them.
> 
> Simply human nature to be envious. I was on a trip in Cambodia to Angkor Wat and had to rent a regular bicycle because I was cheap. When I was riding around I saw people riding the electric bikes and without thinking my gut response was a feeling of hate towards them.
> 
> ...


Wow, you hate awfully easily.....

I've been passed by motos, riders on ebikes, mtbs, road bikes and even once, on a DH by a girl on a cross bike. I didn't hate any of them. I instantly fell in love with CrossBike Girl though.....

I wouldn't report any single user on an ebike, what's the point? Think they'll start staking out the trail heads looking for that one guy? I would ask him if he knew he was not on a legal trail if we did start chatting, just like I do with riders I see on non bike legal trails. Otherwise, not my job man.

I'd bring it up with the LM though if I started to see it often, just as a FYI.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

andytiedye said:


> Goes to show that haters will hate
> 'cause that's what they do.


Reporting illegal use of a trail makes one a "hater"?

Just clarifying.

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Speeder500 said:


> Simply human nature to be envious. I was on a trip in Cambodia to Angkor Wat and had to rent a regular bicycle because I was cheap. When I was riding around I saw people riding the electric bikes and without thinking my gut response was a feeling of hate towards them.
> 
> I assume this is just human nature at work.


Wow, that's really sad. I hope you find love someday.

btw I think you'd be hard pressed to find one person on this forum even slightly opposed to electric bikes for road use.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> It's not illegal to pass people, and unless there is a posted speed limit, going 25mph is perfectly legal.
> 
> Whereas there are plenty of places where, regardless of speed, riding an e-bike is always illegal.


The area the man detoured through was picnic/rest area. If he had not entered that area and stayed on the cycle path, I would have followed. Was there a speedlimit in the picnic area ?, It was pedestrain only.



rider95 said:


> Oh its ok to ride like a dick just not on a e bike ummm .


I did not say or imply that.



Speeder500 said:


> Read the original posters post, he specifically said he was passed. I am sure he was busting his ass at a good speed and then some guy with an ebike, and a fat bike at that, joyfully passes him with ease. This really pissed him off because he is busting his ass pedaling.
> 
> I totally understand the hate, but the regular bikers have the option of riding an ebike so they should not be consumed with this hate.


No hate here. I just like to do right thing and that includes abiding the law and reminding others to do the same. That's not to say take the law into my own hands, but just letting people know as there is always a slim chance they have been mis-informed. However, this man's reaction suggests he was aware of his unlawful position


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Why the hate?

Just ride your bike and be happy you have the opportunity to do so. Many others don't get to share to love we have by just riding our bikes. It could all go away tomorrow for you or I.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

Sounds like the OP is talking about a MUP/rail trail/greenway/tow path/whatever your local flavour is. In which case, I fail to see the harm. 

I'd consider reporting on singletrack, for sure, but ebike ain't hurting no rail graded pathway, regardless of surface. Ebike may be a technical violation, but no harm; no foul. 

He only sped through the picnic area because some zealot was chasing him, screaming bloody murder.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Probably was some feeble old man on a mobility scooter. However, if a big, burly dude was bombing down a trail scaring women and children, he'd hide behind a bush. Individuals have righteous indignation when the occasion favors them. JMO

By the way, IMBA, who detests eMTB's, did a study to "prove" that ebikes are more destructive to singletrack than pMTB's. Oops! Could find little or no difference.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

fos'l said:


> Probably was some feeble old man on a mobility scooter. However, if a big, burly dude was bombing down a trail scaring women and children, he'd hide behind a bush. Individuals have righteous indignation when the occasion favors them. JMO
> 
> By the way, IMBA, who detests eMTB's, did a study to "prove" that ebikes are more destructive to singletrack than pMTB's. Oops! Could find little or no difference.


And the IMBA thing means what? For some reason people cannot understand the majority of "haters", as e-proponents refer to them, have a dissenting opinion on e-bikes on trails because they aren't concerned about the destructive power, getting run over, getting beat, cheating on strava, or any other topic that comes up. They find issue with them because they could have the potential to jeopardize trail access for all users. Look no further than the California district that banned bikes on trail. Not just e-bikes but all bikes. It is that easy and since a lot of states don't have a clear direction on e-bikes on trails people, mountain bikers, fear that unauthorized use of them on their trails could provide ammunition to those that seek to ban bikes from trails and help them ban all bikes. It can happen, easily.

You all love to paint it as some discrimination but it couldn't be further from the truth, I would love if all states, the BLM and FWS had a determination on e-bikes, then we could go about riding and interacting or designing trails that suit our separate niches, just as all the various niches of mountain biking have done. DH riders don't ride AM trails any more because they have their own trails but once upon a time we grouse and complained about slow XC riders on descents or fast DH riders on descents getting in our respective ways and riding the trails dangerously, and they don't belong. Now those conflicts are few and far in between.

You can pretend it is about whatever insecurity you feel opponents are showing but it is about access, plain, simple, and true.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Mabey next time you see a e bike on the trails you should ride with him and see for your self talk to the guy watch how the e bike uses the trail how he rides , I bet your fears will be eased .


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

rider95 said:


> Mabey next time you see a e bike on the trails you should ride with him and see for your self talk to the guy watch how the e bike uses the trail how he rides , I bet your fears will be eased .


That's kinda hard to do when the e-biker is going 25mph weaving through kids on tricycles.

I bet he wouldn't have hesitated to bunny hop a kid if one were to have gotten in his way.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

As a cyclist and a car owner I realize how much of an asshat we can be. I mean all of us have rode side by side on the road with a feeling of righteousness. I mean when we ride on the road while heading to the trail do we really have a right to hold up traffic?
I try to be courteous to all trail users but some of my friends are not. I don't have any problem calling them out on it.
Now to the OP's post. He is a responsible cyclist (I hope) and Mr. e-bike was going too fast through people. If he was doing this around my Kids I would not let him get away with it. But I would do the same with any cyclist. The problem is that anyone who buys a e-bike will go fast.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Like I said go ride with one and see instead of making foolish statements .


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

rockcrusher said:


> And the IMBA thing means what? For some reason people cannot understand the majority of "haters", as e-proponents refer to them, have a dissenting opinion on e-bikes on trails because they aren't concerned about the destructive power, getting run over, getting beat, cheating on strava, or any other topic that comes up. They find issue with them because they could have the potential to jeopardize trail access for all users. Look no further than the California district that banned bikes on trail. Not just e-bikes but all bikes. It is that easy and since a lot of states don't have a clear direction on e-bikes on trails people, mountain bikers, fear that unauthorized use of them on their trails could provide ammunition to those that seek to ban bikes from trails and help them ban all bikes. It can happen, easily.
> 
> You all love to paint it as some discrimination but it couldn't be further from the truth, I would love if all states, the BLM and FWS had a determination on e-bikes, then we could go about riding and interacting or designing trails that suit our separate niches, just as all the various niches of mountain biking have done. DH riders don't ride AM trails any more because they have their own trails but once upon a time we grouse and complained about slow XC riders on descents or fast DH riders on descents getting in our respective ways and riding the trails dangerously, and they don't belong. Now those conflicts are few and far in between.
> 
> You can pretend it is about whatever insecurity you feel opponents are showing but it is about access, plain, simple, and true.


 Yes, ebikes COULD have the potential to cause conflicts with other trail users that COULD result in trail closures to all bikes. A lot of things COULD happen, but the rational response is not to insist upon zero access, i.e. pretend that ebikes don't exist, but rather to deal with the changing realities that technology brings and manage the issue and any problems if and when they occur.

Have any trails actually been closed due to the actions of real ebikers or have any closures been "preventative" and imposed with no actual incidents or even any ebikes on the trails in question. At least in my area the Rangers are taking a wait and see attitude as opposed to freaking out and preemptively banning everything in sight!


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

In my neighborhood trails have been closed to mountain bikers because of conflict with Equestrians.
I don't have a problem with responsible e-bikers. But the majority of new buyers have not experienced any trail conflict. When you buy a mountain bike it takes a while to be able to go fast on trail. A pedal assist bike can go fast on day one.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Yes, ebikes COULD have the potential to cause conflicts with other trail users that COULD result in trail closures to all bikes. A lot of things COULD happen, but the rational response is not to insist upon zero access, i.e. pretend that ebikes don't exist, but rather to deal with the changing realities that technology brings and manage the issue and any problems if and when they occur.
> 
> Have any trails actually been closed due to the actions of real ebikers or have any closures been "preventative" and imposed with no actual incidents or even any ebikes on the trails in question. At least in my area the Rangers are taking a wait and see attitude as opposed to freaking out and preemptively banning everything in sight!


There isn't zero access, you can ride them on moto legal singletrack which in a lot of places is awesome, no matter if you are on a moto, ebike, bike or hiking. It's not like the only moto legal trails are MX tracks. Which seems like a reasonable start and place to prove that 750W ebikes aren't a problem. All the land managers I've spoken to about it are very aware they exist, they just don't share your opinion that they are the same as a bike. Most bike people, and many land managers I've met are also bike people, are pro ebikes, just not everywhere.

I still don't see how you consider places where ebikes weren't legal a year ago because they were considered a motorized vehicle, and are illegal now because they are still considered a motorized vehicle, a "preemptive ban".

AFAIK, there haven't been any single tracks closed to ebikes in the US due to behavior since they effectively don't exist. What do you think the true emtb numbers are nationwide? I'm curious. I've still not seen one in Colorado. Hell, I haven't seen one yet on the road, although I'm sure there's a few around.

They have been banned from some bike paths after having been allowed, I'm not sure if you consider that valid.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I get the biggest kick out of individuals who profess their great skills that they've acquired over many laborious years, then say that an ebiker, who has never ridden a bike before, is going out and blasting down the trails. Short learning curve for them.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

There is a significantly shorter learning curve when you can throw sticky DH tires on your e-"bike" and not suffer the consequences.

Yes, tires and suspension can substitute for skill.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Pretty simple as back in the day mt bikes were looked on as the devil, but through selling masses of them they became mainstream. E-bikes will sell like hotcakes as the price point come down and it will be a race to the bottom, but then there will be so many on the trails that policing them will be impossible. 

Just look at quads they ran everywhere a while back and still do for the most part in my neck of the woods. Only higher prices for new ones keep them at bay now, but used one's at lower prices sell very well.

Accept what you can't control or ignore it cause you have no power to change the tide. Did mt bikes go away from all the complaining back in the day? No, they got stronger and learned ways to adapt and fit in.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Cornfield said:


> That's kinda hard to do when the e-biker is going 25mph weaving through kids on tricycles.
> 
> I bet he wouldn't have hesitated to bunny hop a kid if one were to have gotten in his way.


 Same could be done with a regular mt bike if the person chose to ride reckless...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

NEPMTBA said:


> Pretty simple as back in the day mt bikes were looked on as the devil, but through selling masses of them they became mainstream. E-bikes will sell like hotcakes as the price point come down and it will be a race to the bottom, but then there will be so many on the trails that policing them will be impossible.
> 
> Just look at quads they ran everywhere a while back and still do for the most part in my neck of the woods. Only higher prices for new ones keep them at bay now, but used one's at lower prices sell very well.
> 
> Accept what you can't control or ignore it cause you have no power to change the tide. Did mt bikes go away from all the complaining back in the day? No, they got stronger and learned ways to adapt and fit in.


The thing is mountain biking has never been mainstream, and never will be. It's a fringe sport dominated by freaks who actually enjoy self reliance and suffering. Our numbers will always be (relatively) few and we enjoy open space on trails because the average joe just isn't willing to lay down the required physical effort. When the price of admission changes from sweat to electricity (coal) the floodgates will open and our last vestiges of paradise will be lost.

Lots of folks fought hard to keep quads and motos separate from foot traffic and sensitive areas, it wasn't a futile fight and I'm thankful for them.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

fos'l said:


> Probably was some feeble old man on a mobility scooter. However, if a big, burly dude was bombing down a trail scaring women and children, he'd hide behind a bush. Individuals have righteous indignation when the occasion favors them. JMO


and if you were not writing from behind a veil of anonymity, you probably wouldn't be so impudent


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to J.B. Weld again.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> Why would we do that, when we can simply report the person to the relevant authorities?


At some point, these guys that you plan to bust are going to be your fellow mtn bikers who've decided to buy an e-bike. Don't be that guy......


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Crankout said:


> At some point, these guys that you plan to bust are going to be your fellow mtn bikers who've decided to buy an e-bike. Don't be that guy......


Then I wish them all the happiness in the world riding Forest Service roads and BLM OHV trails.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

NEPMTBA, great job so far parrying the whiners, puffers (who are going to rid the world of illegal e-bikers - wow, superheroes) and inane individuals who think motor = instant competence. This is more than a three ring circus. Hope you enjoy this job because doubt that anyone else could navigate it. Some day when the anti's finally tire of blabbering, should be more interesting posts than baloney.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Crankout said:


> At some point, these guys that you plan to bust are going to be your fellow mtn bikers who've decided to buy an e-bike. Don't be that guy......


Busting someone because they are riding illegally on trails? Take some pics, send to enviro police. Don't be that guy riding illegally.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> The thing is mountain biking has never been mainstream, and never will be. It's a fringe sport dominated by freaks who actually enjoy self reliance and suffering. Our numbers will always be (relatively) few and we enjoy open space on trails because the average joe just isn't willing to lay down the required physical effort. When the price of admission changes from sweat to electricity (coal) the floodgates will open and our last vestiges of paradise will be lost.
> 
> Lots of folks fought hard to keep quads and motos separate from foot traffic and sensitive areas, it wasn't a futile fight and I'm thankful for them.


 Things were a lot better when we could keep "those" people out.... Once the "wrong sort" was allowed in it all went downhill, because, well, you know what "those " people do when they are allowed to mingle with us: they just mess it up for everyone..... It was so much better when it was only Us and Our Kind in Our Place and "those people" stayed out. Gosh, I miss the "Good Old Days" when everyone knew their place and we didn't have to share ours with the unworthy.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> There is a significantly shorter learning curve when you can throw sticky DH tires on your e-"bike" and not suffer the consequences.
> 
> Yes, tires and suspension can substitute for skill.


Never has, never will.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

richde said:


> Never has, never will.


So, DH tires don't provide more grip than XC tires?

Put another way, do you think you could match your best DH segment times on an XC bike, with Racing Ralph 2.25s on it?

If not, do you think it's the bike (tires, geometry, suspension) or do you think you magically gain skill when riding the bike with the heavier duty tires and suspension?

Otherwise, it looks like the tire companies have got it all wrong, then.

While I'm not saying that people that ride DH tires don't have skill, I am saying that they can let a person who is LESS SKILLED ride safely in situations where they might not be able to, riding lower profile, less grippy XC tires.

If advances in tires, wheels, geometry and suspension design didn't let people go faster for a given amount of skill, we'd all be on 26" HTs with RS-1s or Mag 20s riding 1.8 tires, with tubes, at 45psi.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

fos'l said:


> NEPMTBA, great job so far parrying the whiners, puffers (who are going to rid the world of illegal e-bikers - wow, superheroes) and inane individuals who think motor = instant competence. This is more than a three ring circus. Hope you enjoy this job because doubt that anyone else could navigate it. Some day when the anti's finally tire of blabbering, should be more interesting posts than baloney.


 I don't have the power to limit what people say nor would I, Let it play out the industry is pumping out e-bikes everyday and more and more will be around


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> So, DH tires don't provide more grip than XC tires?
> 
> Put another way, do you think you could match your best DH segment times on an XC bike, with Racing Ralph 2.25s on it?
> 
> ...


You keep acting as if equipment has some magical effect on a rider, it doesn't. You also need to stop acting as if I'm making an argument that I'm not.

Jump on something that's more capable than you're used to and you're going to pretty much ride it like you're used to. It takes time to explore the expanded capabilities that good suspension and tires bring....most people call that skill.

Otherwise XC-oriented people people would just jump on a big travel bike and crush it at gravity events. But they lack something...could it be called "skill?"


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Answer the question: 

Could you match your DH segment times on an XC bike?

Yes or no.

About the second part: 

Yes, I can instantly go faster when I jump on a 6" bike with beefier, knobbier tires. 



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

rider95 said:


> Mabey next time you see a e bike on the trails you should ride with him and see for your self talk to the guy watch how the e bike uses the trail how he rides , I bet your fears will be eased .


ebike can't go where I go with my bicycle...just too damn hard.


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

Flucod said:


> I sell them and have no problem with them, just a problem with them being used as a regular bike, they are not and should not be on the same trails as unassisted bike, only where the local law allows, but quit trying to say they are same, they are not, why must the e-books crowd trying to push this?


Do you say this, confidently, to the customer buying the weak persons bike?


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Answer the question:
> 
> Could you match your DH segment times on an XC bike?
> 
> ...


Whether it's faster or not isn't the question, the bike doesn't do anything unless the rider makes an input...and the rider is the most important factor. I can crush people on downhills on my Stache in the right conditions...and then turn around and go even faster on my 6" bike. Know why that is? Because I built up that "skill" thing with the 6" bike. It doesn't happen overnight.

Not significantly, you can't. Without going to extremes, an average skilled rider isn't going to keep up with an expert. You can't buy talent.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

So, the bike doesn't contribute to you going faster?

If your skill level doesn't change, and the only change is the bike, where does that speed difference come from?


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> The thing is mountain biking has never been mainstream, and never will be. It's a fringe sport dominated by freaks who actually enjoy self reliance and suffering.


Every extreme sport before it's sold in REI.

Paintball-speedball was a great fringe sport, but as it grew mainstream more people started participating, which turned into more cheating douches found in field. At the height of my XPL league play it seemed that 1 in 4 players were just lame people to be around, their hype of themselves to their game-play were noticeably two different things. Meaning, it became filled with people who would talk-the-talk, but couldn't walk.

I left the sport completely and sold my gear once I noticed the newer members of our little 24 man squad, as well as other players of other teams, would only talk about gear and not tactics at court side. It became noticeable to everyone when the leagues started breaking down. Now speedball is barely a thing anymore, there is still the national league, but its hype died when the newer players and the industry made the game about the gear.


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

Cornfield said:


> OP sounds made-up to me.


not made up just an autistic asian


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

> Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
> There is a significantly shorter learning curve when you can throw sticky DH tires on your e-"bike" and not suffer the consequences.
> 
> Yes, tires and suspension can substitute for skill.





richde said:


> Never has, never will.


I'm fairly certain that this guy:






Who appears to be a medium skilled, casual rider at best, based on his stance on the pedals and the fact that he can barely pedal for a few consecutive minutes at the end of the video, is substantially faster than he would have been on a normal trail bike. Like the ones he coasts by uphill.

The motor enables him to ride a full on, 8" travel freeride bike on a non technical regular trail with significant climbing and to be on the e-gas for @75% of his 30 minute ride time.

The motor makes him faster in the climbs and flats, a longer travel and beefier bike build enables him to negotiate what technical sections he encounters easier and faster than he would on a lesser bike.

This isn't a 4000W Stealth type emoto either, this is a 1200W bike, only a tad more than the 1000W BBSHD that is very popular with those who ride offroad.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

If you think a 750w e bike belongs on a Motocross track you are dangerously dumb , the low power e bikes do and will go hand n hand with reg Mt bike s on the trail . I have lots of experience with both Motocross and Mt biking and the only reason to not allow e bikes on the same trail as the reg mt bikers is hurting ther feelings that's it! I find it funny all the experts I have hrs of gopro video and can back it up with a route tracker that display top speed,avg speed, time its the same as a reg mt biker over the same route.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Motocross track? Really? Where'd that come from?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> If you think a 750w e bike belongs on a Motocross track you are dangerously dumb , the low power e bikes do and will go hand n hand with reg Mt bike s on the trail . I have lots of experience with both Motocross and Mt biking and the only reason to not allow e bikes on the same trail as the reg mt bikers is hurting ther feelings that's it! I find it funny all the experts I have hrs of gopro video and can back it up with a route tracker that display top speed,avg speed, time its the same as a reg mt biker over the same route.


What the hell are you talking about? As far as I can tell, there is no one saying "750w e-bikes belong on a motocross track" anywhere in this thread.

Just that they don't belong on non-motorized trails.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

From Harry man There isn't zero access, you can ride them on moto legal singletrack which in a lot of places is awesome, no matter if you are on a moto, ebike, bike or hiking. It's not like the only moto legal trails are MX tracks. Which seems like a reasonable start . When will you understand e bikes are not motorcycles and don't fit with them in any way, but they do fit nicely with reg MT bikes on the same trail .That's way a of the bike company's are coming out with there own e bikes this is were the next growth is to come from in bycle industry . So like it or not you will see more n more trails being e bike friendly .


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harry, why don't you just compare a 500cc ICE dirt bike to the other riders. That 1200w system isn't anything like a CA Class 1, 20 mph max assist, PAS only bike (which admittedly may still not be legal on trails in CA)? Plus you might as well have had them on pavement as that dirt road. My wife, a grandmother, rode a Faraday city ebike on rougher terrain last night.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

syl3 said:


> not made up just an autistic asian


I meant the original post, not the original poster. Just doesn't sound like it really happened. I'd like to see the blurry pic of the reckless e-biker.

Do kids even ride tricycles anymore?


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> So, the bike doesn't contribute to you going faster?
> 
> If your skill level doesn't change, and the only change is the bike, where does that speed difference come from?


A more capable bike, or anything really, moves the limit of what is "normal." If you drop an XC bike and jump on an enduro bike, you're going to pretty much ride like you usually do...which is to say not significantly faster. Because that is "normal." Nobody is just going to purposely go bashing through a rock garden or charging into a turn significantly faster right off the bat. it's a process.

If it's not, feel free to go gravity racing without practicing on the bike. I'll be waiting for your results and feedback about how you crushed the field.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

One of the biggest problems e bikers have in trying to reason with the e haters is that the e haters cant tell the difference between a hoverboard and a 10000 watt steath bomber


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

You are right. And I think that is the point, isn't it?
A slow docile e-bike that is allowed on non-motorized trails doesn't, to the average eye, look a lot different than a very fast home made ripper. It would be like saying that only 100mm travel bikes are allowed.
We are going to open our trails up to all electric bikes or none. The consequences of having a free for all will equal trail closure.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> Things were a lot better when we could keep "those" people out.... Once the "wrong sort" was allowed in it all went downhill, because, well, you know what "those " people do when they are allowed to mingle with us: they just mess it up for everyone..... It was so much better when it was only Us and Our Kind in Our Place and "those people" stayed out. Gosh, I miss the "Good Old Days" when everyone knew their place and we didn't have to share ours with the unworthy.


As usual, you either miss or completely ignore my point. I'm guessing miss.


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## Ghost_HTX (Sep 19, 2014)

The original topic <------------------------------> this thread.

Guys, the OP didnt ask to discuss whether e-bikes are cheating/good/bad/ugly or not. He asks what can be done to stop e-bikes being ridden dangerously. He even states that e-bike usage is not legal in his country in public places (although he doesnt tell us where that is).

To answer that, I would say that since I dont know where you are, I cant answer. You could check out the website of the managing body of that park / area and see if it has any contact info you can report this occurance to. It might be a waste of time though as its a small infringement and after the fact.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

rider95 said:


> One of the biggest problems e bikers have in trying to reason with the e haters is that the e haters cant tell the difference between a hoverboard and a 10000 watt steath bomber


Your arguments are becoming more and more unhinged. Perhaps it would be best if you just go ride your ebike and forget about this thread for a day or thirty.

The biggest problem ebikers have is ignoring the fact that ...and I'll make this real clear... Your bike has a MOTOR. Period


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Flucod said:


> Exactly, that is the argument the hikers and equestrians will use, then all bikes get banned.


But that issue is totally valid, and a major point of their opposition.

And fair warning, I'm going to neg rep the next poster who refers to someone with a different opinion than theirs as an "e-hater". Sorry.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> And fair warning, I'm going to neg rep the next poster who refers to someone with a different opinion than theirs as an "e-hater". Sorry.


No ****! That one was played out months ago.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

fos'l said:


> NEPMTBA, great job so far parrying the whiners, puffers (who are going to rid the world of illegal e-bikers - wow, superheroes) and inane individuals who think motor = instant competence. This is more than a three ring circus. Hope you enjoy this job because doubt that anyone else could navigate it. Some day when the anti's finally tire of blabbering, should be more interesting posts than baloney.


If this thread bores you that much, then unsubscribe. Your posts do not contribute anything noteworthy anyway. Having scanned the thread very quickly, I think you're the main source of "puffing", "whining", "blabbering" and unprovoked insults.

And turning this on the moderator, quite pathetic. Reminds me of nursery.

Actually, how old are you by the way ? mental age and physical age if they happen to be different ?


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Then I wish them all the happiness in the world riding Forest Service roads and BLM OHV trails.


Agree, +1. 
It's all about access and future access. You are riding something with a motor. Ride them on a non-motorized trail in my neck of the woods and I'll politely inform you of it then report it.
Happy ridin'.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

richde said:


> A more capable bike, or anything really, moves the limit of what is "normal." If you drop an XC bike and jump on an enduro bike, you're going to pretty much ride like you usually do...which is to say not significantly faster. Because that is "normal." Nobody is just going to purposely go bashing through a rock garden or charging into a turn significantly faster right off the bat. it's a process.
> 
> If it's not, feel free to go gravity racing without practicing on the bike. I'll be waiting for your results and feedback about how you crushed the field.


Boom:

Pro completes road race on borrowed 1980s mountain bike after crash | road.cc


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> When will you understand e bikes are not motorcycles and don't fit with them in any way, but they do fit nicely with reg MT bikes on the same trail .


Motos and bike fit together fine, I've ridden for decades on motorized trails with motos on them. Some of the best singletrack riding in the mtb meccas of Moab and Crested Butte are open to motorized vehicles and yet still filled with bikes. There are plenty of great trails available for motorized bicycles, there isn't "zero access" if you can't ride them on non-motorized.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

richde said:


> A more capable bike, or anything really, moves the limit of what is "normal." If you drop an XC bike and jump on an enduro bike, you're going to pretty much ride like you usually do...which is to say not significantly faster. Because that is "normal." Nobody is just going to purposely go bashing through a rock garden or charging into a turn significantly faster right off the bat. it's a process.
> 
> If it's not, feel free to go gravity racing without practicing on the bike. I'll be waiting for your results and feedback about how you crushed the field.


HA!!! been there done that. if you are fit, it doesn't matter

years and tears of pure XC racing, you bet I know how to pick lines, so
with a mush-machine and my excellent XC skills, I did in fact...crush.

I did, but bashing through chunder head-on is what I already am accustomed to with XC (to a point) the faster u go...the faster u go. on DH on fat tires, it was silly easy.

I went with gang of hard-hitting mo-fo's to Sunday River --and borrowed a DH bike--. I never been on one before. Man that was odd, but anyway at the top of the mountain all I had to do was remind myself stop sitting my ass on the rear tire by accident

I rampaged down the hill and blew away 12 hammerhead friends through all the chunder with ease. What I did not do and the only thing that slowed me down was jumps over 1 fot (yeah I am no jumper). but anyway that heavy bike and my XC kungfoolery was plenty to rip past everyone and pretty much dominate

man at the campfire later on people were crying 'I been doing this 6 years how come 127.0.0.1 just flew down the hill each time" and 'old granpappy of the bunch' said 'well, 127.0.0.1 been XC dawg for >15 years, that is why'

summary

a good cyclist will have the experience to 'feel out' the 'machine they picked that day' and figure it out really fast. and in the case of MTB, if you already spent your life running 1.9's through roots, rocks, and reggae, getting on a DH bike the learning curve is rather tiny.

in my specific case I just opened up and ripped like never before

so, theres that.

I can also be riding my XC MTB on the road and when a train of hardcore roadies come along to pass I can choose to join the peloton and hang...do roadie crap...but that is highly dependent on what tires and pressure I have when 'caught out' I can't maintain that charade for more than 5 miles usually

this has nothing to do with e-bike so I will add this. keep your e-bike off my trails that are designated 'no motorized vehicles'


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> Harry, why don't you just compare a 500cc ICE dirt bike to the other riders. That 1200w system isn't anything like a CA Class 1, 20 mph max assist, PAS only bike (which admittedly may still not be legal on trails in CA)? Plus you might as well have had them on pavement as that dirt road. My wife, a grandmother, rode a Faraday city ebike on rougher terrain last night.


I was making the point that it's not just skill that enables a rider to go faster and ride above their level. Every time I've upgraded from one mtb to another since 1985, I've been faster immediately and usually overbiked. It does take a while to learn to take full advantage of more and better suspension, better tires etc, but you first find you can ride faster because that new bike saves your butt when you do something stupid.

That video shows a guy riding a bike he would ordinarily not ride on that trail, and both because of the motor and the big squish bike, is riding it faster than he would be capable of on a lighter, shorter travel bike.

This one shows a skilled rider, same course, same bike, one lap with the motor on, one with it off. It's a 3400W motor, so the difference is drastic, but it's hard to deny that a bike with a motor enables one to ride faster than on a bike without a motor. That's the point right?






I'm glad your wife is out on her ebike, my 63 year old wife rides her mtb on far more technical stuff than that as well. And that proves?

Yup, a 1200W bike isn't legal, neither are the 1000W bikes that some of the other posters here are riding. Even 750W bikes are illegal in CA if you want to split hairs.

"and an electric motor of *less than* 750 watts." :thumbsup:

What is legal will have little effect on what we will see once ebikes become more common. The regs are so vague, what does that even mean? Peak output? Nominal? Can you ride a 2000W watt motor as long as it's restricted to 749W? Whatever you say is good with me just don't get caught?

As I see it, here are 2 types of people who will buy and ride emtbs.

1) Those who are too old, tired, injured, out of shape or disabled to ride a mtb. They want to recreate a MTB experience and will be very happy to be back out on the trails, and they think a 750W limit is plenty. I've ridden in Europe where with a 250W limit, that's who rides ebikes there. And they could still out climb me with those little motors.

2) Those who get on one and say "OMG, this is so much fun, I want to go faster". The people who want performance and will be seeking a powered mtb, moto-lite experience. This group doesn't really exist in Europe, since retailers can't sell kits or bikes like that unless they are classified as a moped. Licensed, etc.

Group 1 generally aren't going cause problems, no more than they would on a mtb.

Group 2 will. They will modify existing emtbs and bolt kits on old mtbs. Likely DH bikes since they are the best suited for it, being heavy and strong. What will they ride? They'll start with 1000W at a minimum. 1500W? More? Who knows, but I wouldn't bet against it.

Without a significant existing population to study, emtbs in the US are an experiment, the social climate and parameters are far different than in Europe. There will be little enforcement or penalties, I don't expect people to self regulate based on any legislation, just like speed limits on the road, they will only be seen as a recommendation.

I don't know what the ratio will be between Group 1 and Group 2, however I don't think that Group 2 will be insignificant. That's where I'd be and everyone I know who rides tbh.

To be clear, I think both group 1 and group 2 should be able to ride their ebikes, both reasons are valid in my eyes, they're just not bikes. I think savvy entrepeneurs who put together ebike parks would make a killing. No need for lifts, self shuttle your way back up, rip laps. I'd go rent a bike, it'd be a hoot.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

OK Harry; I'm in the third group; got interested in ebikes for several reasons but mostly since TO ME MTB development had stagnated. Like the technology and ride them on legal roads and trails only; I ride my pMTB five or so times a week; the ebike is a supplement. Have met many ebikes on trails and never have seen an individual on one riding irresponsibly, so I don't think it's going to be the problem that closes trails; may be ammunition for anti-wilderness groups, but you can't blame the riders for that. As far as the OP asking how to get them off trails in CA, no way since in most areas there's not enough rangers to patrol. If Class 1 bikes are allowed on some trails, in 2017 the manufacturers will need to have stickers that classify their bikes in CA. There's always going to be ebike outlaws just like downhillers that bomb trails without regard for others; I've even seen ICE bikes on trails out here. Can't do much about it. I've reported the downhill riders and ICE bikes, but not much can be done? On the other hand, the ebikers were riding very responsibly so that was fine with me. 

CBS --- Interested in this thread, but was disgusted by the idiotic bragging about your "manly" attempt to rid the world of terror. You're a craven coward, sitting behind your computer trying to sound tough. I meant what I said to the moderator since he needs to deal with crap like you.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

fos'l said:


> There's always going to be ebike outlaws just like downhillers that bomb trails without regard for others; I've even seen ICE bikes on trails out here. Can't do much about it. I've reported the downhill riders and ICE bikes, but not much can be done? On the other hand, the ebikers were riding very responsibly so that was fine with me.


Apparently I am not the only one full of crap



fos'l said:


> CBS --- Interested in this thread, but was disgusted by the idiotic bragging about your "manly" attempt to rid the world of terror. You're a craven coward, sitting behind your computer trying to sound tough. I meant what I said to the moderator since he needs to deal with crap like you.


Whatever you have been smoking, cut down. Calling out to someone politely, following him for 1km and stopping before a no-bike zone filled with kids is hardly manly. Your imagination is leading you astray


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

c8stom said:


> no-bike zone filled with kids


In your original post you stated that the children were riding bikes and tricycles, so now they're breaking the rules too?


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

fos'l said:


> Harry, why don't you just compare a 500cc ICE dirt bike to the other riders.


Did someone mention a 500cc moto...
...now you have my attention


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Like I said hover board or 10,000 watt bomber both have motors so all the same


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

rider95 said:


> Like I said hover board or 10,000 watt bomber both have motors so all the same


Yes, and no matter how many times you wish to act like it makes a difference it doesn't. Instead of preaching to your choir or arguing with rabble such as myself would your efforts not be better spent advocating for change to your local federal land managers.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Ghost_HTX said:


> The original topic <------------------------------> this thread.
> 
> Guys, the OP didnt ask to discuss whether e-bikes are cheating/good/bad/ugly or not. He asks what can be done to stop e-bikes being ridden dangerously. He even states that e-bike usage is not legal in his country in public places (although he doesnt tell us where that is).
> 
> To answer that, I would say that since I dont know where you are, I cant answer. You could check out the website of the managing body of that park / area and see if it has any contact info you can report this occurance to. It might be a waste of time though as its a small infringement and after the fact.


 Exactly, lets get back to...


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I'm sure that C my "BS" will get the last word since that's what she gets her kicks from, but could care less since she's on my ignore list. However,
1) In CA there are groups that ride where they want, when they want and how they want; they can't be controlled since there's not enough individuals to enforce the laws.
2) As ebikes are more prevalent, expect the same.
3) Anyone confronting an individual who is infringing whether they have an ebike, are poaching or whatever, does so at their own risk. It's easy if you're approaching an old man or physically challenged person, but try it with some people and you might end up getting your ass kicked or in jail if you push around the wrong person. Assault and battery are still more felonious than poaching or riding an ebike where it's illegal. 
4) As I stated before, I've reported situations before, but it's usually after the fact. Once in the Santa Ana mountains a Ranger was within 200' or so of three individuals on ICE dirt bikes, but didn't chase them since he stated that he couldn't catch them in his truck.
5) Be interesting if someone has a solution, and it might be possible in some locations, but not here. Maybe it's time for the Vigilantes again.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fos'l said:


> I'm sure that C my "BS" will get the last word since that's what she gets her kicks from, but could care less since she's on my ignore list. However,
> 1) In CA there are groups that ride where they want, when they want and how they want; they can't be controlled since there's not enough individuals to enforce the laws.
> 2) As ebikes are more prevalent, expect the same.
> 3) Anyone confronting an individual who is infringing whether they have an ebike, are poaching or whatever, does so at their own risk. It's easy if you're approaching an old man or physically challenged person, but try it with some people and you might end up getting your ass kicked or in jail if you push around the wrong person. Assault and battery are still more felonious than poaching or riding an ebike where it's illegal.
> ...


Wait. You're suggesting that if I get into a verbal confrontation with an e-bike rider, I could get my ass kicked, or thrown in jail?

Why would I get thrown in jail? I'm not going to throw a punch at some idiot riding an e-"bike" on USFS land, and it's perfectly, 100% legal for me to talk to him, or take pictures of him in the act, and report it.

You might as well say, "It's illegal to batter someone". No ****. Thanks for the warning, man.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

As I said before I don't poach, so the worst that would happen (and has) is that I'm on a trail "after hours" (flat tire or whatever), so this is somewhat hypothetical, but take all the pictures you want; doesn't do anything. Don't forget your flash.
You can blab all you want, it's a free country; my response would be to pay no attention or tell you to do something anatomically impossible. No effect since whatever behavior was there before will remain.
My point was in both cases there is no influence on the situation.
If you're too dumb to understand this, I'll try to draw you a picture.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fos'l said:


> As I said before I don't poach, so the worst that would happen (and has) is that I'm on a trail "after hours" (flat tire or whatever), so this is somewhat hypothetical, but take all the pictures you want; doesn't do anything. Don't forget your flash.
> You can blab all you want, it's a free country; my response would be to pay no attention or tell you to do something anatomically impossible. No effect since whatever behavior was there before will remain.
> My point was in both cases there is no influence on the situation.
> If you're too dumb to understand this, I'll try to draw you a picture.


Well, no, it's not a "free country". We have laws which govern and dictate what is legal and illegal. You are "free" to do whatever you want within the bounds of the law, or face the consequences for breaking the law.

Here's a helpful hint:

If I wanted to report you, I wouldn't approach you, and you'd never know I was there until you saw me point at you while standing next to the FS Ranger as you loaded your e-"bike" onto your vehicle.


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

Typical roadie coward hiding behind mommy's skirt. Sad.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

LOL be nice some ppl are just that way


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

Cornfield said:


> In your original post you stated that the children were riding bikes and tricycles, so now they're breaking the rules too?


Possibly... The ones I saw were small ( 3 to 6 I reckon )

How children ( 3 to 6yrs old ) on small bikes/trikes are classified by the law is another discussion. If a parent is assisting the child and/or the child is too young to look out for one's self on a cycle lane, should they be subject to the same laws ?.

Electric battery power cars for toddlers are now available at my local Toys R Us but they are not subject to Transport Dept registration or to road laws as they are classified as toys. I suspect those toddler bikes/trikes are also

Good question anyway. I don't know the answer.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

syl3 said:


> Typical roadie coward hiding behind mommy's skirt. Sad.





rider95 said:


> LOL be nice some ppl are just that way


I'll post my DD214 if you guys post yours.

In case that's too much for you to comprehend:

I'm not "hiding" behind anyone. I'm very comfortable with violence. However, unlike you, I respect the law, and the authorities charged with enforcing it.

I also find it rather amusing that, using the anonymity of the internet, you call someone else a coward. That's rich.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I agree with you le that's a bit much but my skin has gotten a lot thicker from this group.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

as Fos'l body ages, his brain remains at 8-year old level.

How is that possible ?


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

For your own opinions, every single one of you have overlooked, or put off, the issue of weaving around children at 25mph.

Why?


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

rlee said:


> As a cyclist and a car owner I realize how much of an asshat we can be. I mean all of us have rode side by side on the road with a feeling of righteousness. I mean when we ride on the road while heading to the trail do we really have a right to hold up traffic?
> I try to be courteous to all trail users but some of my friends are not. I don't have any problem calling them out on it.
> Now to the OP's post. He is a responsible cyclist (I hope) and Mr. e-bike was going too fast through people. If he was doing this around my Kids I would not let him get away with it. But I would do the same with any cyclist. The problem is that anyone who buys a e-bike will go fast.


I didn't.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

fos'l said:


> OK Harry; I'm in the third group; got interested in ebikes for several reasons but mostly since TO ME MTB development had stagnated.


Who cares if mountain bikes "stagnate"? I'd rather ride a 1985 B-stone on a gorgeous trail with good friends than ride the most amazing full-squish wonderbike (motor or not) on some crap trail. And that's the point - the trails are what matter. A little extra ease or speed for your bike isn't worth risking losing access to the trails. More speed is *bad* for access, especially if that speed is available going uphill as well as down.

Gear is neat, and fun, and I make my living selling new bikes to geeks. But if you think the sport is about the gear, you're doing it wrong. I remember a lot of epic rides and races (both good and bad). I probably couldn't tell you what bike/fork/tires I was on for any of those great experiences unless I broke something.

-Walt


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Your opinion is worth as much to you as mine is to me. Ride whatever trails you want and I'll do the same. I neither poach nor champion it and what I'm doing is legal. I've been an MTB advocate for a long time and now like ebikes too. If you can't assimilate this, lump it. Please get back to your outlandish generalizations and denigration of individuals. You make more sense that way.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

pdxmark said:


> For your own opinions, every single one of you have overlooked, or put off, the issue of weaving around children at 25mph.
> 
> Why?


Children are agile and quick to move when necessary, thus a non-starter for the purposes of this here thread.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

pdxmark said:


> For your own opinions, every single one of you have overlooked, or put off, the issue of weaving around children at 25mph.
> 
> Why?


Picture a mom with three kids climbing around in the car without seat belts on while weaving all over road as she texts away.

Try to have a discussion of child safety with that mom and see how far you get. Simple fact is that nobody gives a rat's ass about anyone but themselves anymore.

Society is degenerating quickly.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

And who needs to be told this this isn't cool ?


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

fos'l said:


> I'm sure that C my "BS" will get the last word since that's what she gets her kicks from, but could care less since she's on my ignore list.


Ignore list? I guess I touched a raw nerve


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

rider95 said:


> From Harry man There isn't zero access, you can ride them on moto legal singletrack which in a lot of places is awesome, no matter if you are on a moto, ebike, bike or hiking. It's not like the only moto legal trails are MX tracks. Which seems like a reasonable start . When will you understand e bikes are not motorcycles and don't fit with them in any way, but they do fit nicely with reg MT bikes on the same trail .That's way a of the bike company's are coming out with there own e bikes this is were the next growth is to come from in bycle industry . So like it or not you will see more n more trails being e bike friendly .


As somebody who rides KTM Enduro, GG trials, and Mojo SL often in Idaho, I have to agree with every word. 

Putting e-bikes in same category as a KTM 300 is ridiculous.

As to "reporting" the use of e-bikes...if I reported every mtb rider I saw riding dangerously on NFS trails....well that would take lots of time. I see them well over 30mph downhill often.

But if they manage to miss me, I'm happy LOL


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

uhoh7 said:


> As somebody who rides KTM Enduro, GG trials, and Mojo SL often in Idaho, I have to agree with every word.
> 
> Putting e-bikes in same category as a KTM 300 is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


 You're not supposed to mention those sorts of MTBers anymore! Now that there are ebikes to blame for all of the worlds woes the Official Line is that all MTBers are courteous safety-minded saints and any problems are due to hikers confusing wild and dangerous ebikes with innocent MTBs.........


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I was getting coffee the other day and saw an electric bike out back so I said to the (coffee shop) owner "Hey, cool bike!". She told me that she and her husband sold one of their cars and got the bike to replace it for commuting, which I thought was totally cool and told her and her husband so. her husband started telling me all the nerdy details, 750w pedal assist, qualifies as a regular bicycle by law, etc, and then explained how fun it was to ride and how you "barely had to pedal" to get up to speed, followed by "actually it's kind of scary"

Point being is that I like them, I've ridden them (older ones) but those trying to say that they are basically the same as a bicycle are full of snot, and they have absolutely no place on trails designated for non-motor use IMHFO. Hopefully the local laws here will continue to uphold that sentiment.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Well if your local laws don't hold up as you would like to keep low power bikes off the trails wont that mean your friends from the coffee shop will join you on the trails ?? is that such a bad thing?? Relax its just a e bike


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> Well if your local laws don't hold up as you would like to keep low power bikes off the trails wont that mean your friends from the coffee shop will join you on the trails ?? is that such a bad thing?? Relax its just a e bike


My friends only want it for commuting, which I think is great. A CR500 is just a bike too.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

You should encourage your friends to come ride with you then you could see for your self , how e bikes do belong on the same trails and its no big deal .


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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

I find that ebikes help a lot with my Strava times.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

rider95 said:


> You should encourage your friends to come ride with you then you could see for your self , how e bikes do belong on the same trails and its no big deal .


They do belong on some trails, trails that motor vehicles are allowed on, because they have motors. Not on mtb trails, not now, not ever.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

rider95 said:


> You should encourage your friends to come ride with you then you could see for your self , how e bikes do belong on the same trails and its no big deal .


The only reason for a healthy human being to ever ride an ebike on a non-motorized trail is out of sheer laziness.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

10 spds is plenty who needs 21 , rim brakes are fine no need for them fancy disc , suspense belongs on a motorcycle , Why would anyone want to ride a bike on our trails? when there is all the roads for them to ride on? something to think about


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> You should encourage your friends to come ride with you then you could see for your self , how e bikes do belong on the same trails and its no big deal .


Their electric bike isn't a mountain bike and they have never been mountain biking, nor have they expressed any interest in mountain biking. I am 100% opposed to electric bikes on non-motorized trails so asking them take their electric commuter bike on a mtb ride with me would be incredibly awkward.


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## matuchi (Jun 9, 2008)

sfgiantsfan said:


> They do belong on some trails, trails that motor vehicles are allowed on, because they have motors. Not on mtb trails, not now, not ever.


I asked about that at a local bike shop yesterday and the manager told me they are allowed at Tamarancho - I don't ride there, but they may start showing up there.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Well as more e bikes become more common and you gain more knowledge about them you will feel less awkward , and like your friends enjoy them too .


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> Well as more e bikes become more common and you gain more knowledge about them you will feel less awkward , and like your friends enjoy them too .


You're a weird dude rider.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

matuchi said:


> I asked about that at a local bike shop yesterday and the manager told me they are allowed at Tamarancho - I don't ride there, but they may start showing up there.


That would be weird. It is private property, so I can't say for sure.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> You're a weird dude rider.


You can tell all day and night that I will love recumbent bikes if I only would consider riding one on a regular basis. Until I become a bearded, eccentric engineer, I can guarantee you that I will never love them.


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## Speeder500 (Oct 9, 2012)

Don't try to debate with the anti ebikers, it is a waste of time. Not going to change their minds. You will just let them vent more and scare other riders away from ebikes. 

I only get positive comments about my ebike in public. Most people don't even know it is an ebike to begin with. 

These threads here have attracted the .01% of people who don't like them. They are just going to scare other people away because some may not realize that you won't have any trouble in public. 

We are on a dedicated mountain bike forum here, it is going to attract the purists.

Instead of wasting time with the purists. Get an ebike, get out in public and start to convert other people to ebikes. This way ebikes will become the normal way to bike.

I'm going to start a meetup.com electric bike group in my city. I'm going to do my part in the ebike revolution. Once people try them out there is no going back.


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

"The normal way to bike"??

"Once people try them out there is no going back"???

You're funny.  I'm not an ebike hater and those claims are just silly.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Well he's pretty spot on in my two plus years of riding my e bike I have found the same, from ppl and other riders out on the trail. Not at all like on here lets be respectful of each other we do have the same love to ride the single track trails on our mt bikes I have went to great lengths and money to keep riding remember its just a e bike no big deal .


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

rider95 said:


> Well he's pretty spot on in my two plus years of riding my e bike I have found the same, from ppl and other riders out on the trail. Not at all like on here lets be respectful of each other we do have the same love to ride the single track trails on our *mt bikes* I have went to great lengths and money to keep riding remember its just a e bike no big deal .


An ebike is not a mountain bike, no matter how much you insist it is. Mountains bikers love to ride the single track trails and don't appreciate threats to their accessibility. Be respectful and keep it on the road where it belongs, no big deal.........


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Speeder, exactly my point; no use trying to discuss the issue with the antis, although it seems R95 enjoys getting them riled up. I keep coming back since EB and Harry have insightful, cogent points. The rest can be characterized as third-graders who think that rhetoric and reasoning consists of calling people names. Too bad they never learned about "sticks and stones"; maybe they could have attained puberty at some point. We have discussions about the issue on a local site, but the individuals contribute in a manner that makes one realize that we're all in this together with a common goal, unlike some of the despicable individuals that poison these threads where the only thing we have in common (thankfully) is that we metabolize Oxygen.


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

I visited an friend in Taiwan a couple of weeks ago and being the passional biker and technologist he is, he had a number of motorbikes and E-bikes I managed to try out in his big back yard. Two of the E-bikes were over-the-top taiwanese models I have never heard of but there was a Specialized Turbo amongst them. After trying them out, I was very impressed. So impressed I will very likely buy the Specialised if E-bikes are legalised in my home country.

I had assumed all his bikes were legal in Taiwan but I quickly learned they were not due to power. After alot of complaints about safety in general, their equivalent of the transport department had started implementing new restrictions. Some of these include lowering the power assist cut out drastically, introducing licensing, certification etc. In short, the E-bike was now regulated like a moped but even more so. As a frequent visitor to Taiwan who sees mopeds whizzing around all over the place in huge numbers, I didn't quite understand the extent of the clamp down on E-bikes specifically that's probably because I don't live there and see the issues.

Is Taiwan a good example of how E-bikes could impact transportation and safety in your town/city ?. Could the same public backlash also happen ?

IMHO, if E-bikers were required to attain a license of some sort and agreed to use and maintain the bike in accordance with the law, there wouldn't be any backlash. E-bikes would co-exist in harmony with mopeds. As they were not regulated at the start, the inevitable happened and spoiled it for everyone.

Not sure of all the issues in the US but would imagine permits/licenses/enforcement would go some way to alleviate some of the contentious access issues ?


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

fos'l said:


> Speeder, exactly my point; no use trying to discuss the issue with the antis, although it seems R95 enjoys getting them riled up. I keep coming back since EB and Harry have insightful, cogent points. The rest can be characterized as third-graders who think that rhetoric and reasoning consists of calling people names. Too bad they never learned about "sticks and stones"; maybe they could have attained puberty at some point. We have discussions about the issue on a local site, but the individuals contribute in a manner that makes one realize that we're all in this together with a common goal, unlike some of the despicable individuals that poison these threads where the only thing we have in common (thankfully) is that we metabolize Oxygen.


Just because we say motor bikes are not mountain bikes does not make us 3rd graders. The fact that you can't see that a motor makes it a motorcycle makes you an ......


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Who has called people names?

YOU certainly have, fos'l, but I haven't.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Don't bother guys. Logic doesn't work here. It's a parallel universe of some sort.



But hey, how 'bout them Warriors!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Logic says the new low power E MT bikes do belong on the same trails its just Logical


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

My e-bike with a motor belongs on non-motorized trails, because it's a very small motor.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

rider95 said:


> Logic says the new low power E MT bikes do belong on the same trails its just Logical


As I said, a parallel (albeit bizarro) universe.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rider95 said:


> Logic says the new low power E MT bikes do belong on the same trails its just Logical


 Dude, just say no. Motor vehicles are the devil I tell you, the devil. Plus, there will just be a big pile of batteries in the woods.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Cornfield said:


> My e-bike with a motor belongs on non-motorized trails, because it's a very small motor.


 This cracked me up!...
...Keep the good stuff coming!


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

NEPMTBA said:


> This cracked me up!...
> ...Keep the good stuff coming!


You got it!


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

...


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

^^ lol!


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

No LICENSE, No CERTS, No REGISTRATION and No COMMON SENSE required

Hurry along to pick up your own high capacity power assisted E-bike for only $5,999 whilst loopholes exist !


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

On a daily basis, I see a rather bedraggled elderly fellow cruising into my neighborhood at 6:25 a.m. on his ebike as I'm leaving for work. I almost clipped him today as he was cutting the corner very close into my lane.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Ya know... The thing is, I like the concept and am all in for them where appropriate.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

chuckha62 said:


> Ya know... The thing is, I like the concept and am all in for them where appropriate.


Me too! But I don't want the low power version that may be allowed on some singletrack (I'd rather be on my regular bike there), I want to be able to ride like Ronnie Renner!


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Ok it went there!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

NEPMTBA said:


> Ok it went there!


That was actually rather lame, I was expecting far more from Danny.

Hell, this quasi-legal e-mtb can climb ramps almost as well.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Would you report Martyn Ashton?


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## Swissam (Apr 8, 2008)

Looking for a decent Plus or Fat full susser E bike. Any recommendations? These Haibikes looks legit. Its all Nduro and sh*t.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Rode a Bulls with either Brose or Bosch motor at the expo in San Diego and was very impressed. It seemed to accelerate to its top assisted speed of 20 mph as fast as the "normal" eMTB's. Was considering purchasing one, but the range may be considerably less pushing the big tires. Also, need a fat bike in socal about as much as a fish needs a harmonica.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> A little extra ease or speed for your bike isn't worth risking losing access to the trails.
> -Walt


I think this argument is a red herring. I find it hilarious that so many MTB people are aghast at the ebikes, exactly in the same way hikers and horse riders have been aghast at MTBs....to the point they are actually banned in wilderness.

You would think the MTB riders would take note of the irrational aspects of wilderness bans and be more thoughtful about ebikes. No, many are more NIMBY vs ebikes, than the hikers were towards them.

Public land use for the humans seems quite territorial. Not surprising since that urge goes back millions of years in evolution.

It was not so many years ago vast areas were open to motorcycles. Now there are giant limitations. So few motorized single tracks that those which exist can be crowded in some places, which tears things up even more.

What was the logic behind the motorized bans? Who has not seen somebody on a dirt bike tearing things up? Noisy and in unclean hands they rip stuff up. I see stupid dirt bike riding often. My own access to public land has been greatly effected by the reaction to that behavior.

The new Ebikes are a different animal completely. Can anyone claim ebikes right now are tearing up trails? No. Do they make noise? No.

In fact the actual impact in the backcountry is less than the MTBs, and always will be. Why?

Range. Mtbs can go many many places which are out of range for the ebike.

But even if the range was the same, the impacts are still basically identical in the real world. Sure, if somebody has a modded high power ebike, maybe they could do some extra damage. Even that I doubt, though because those guys are going to be on big tires which are much easier on the trail. The moto problem is wheel spin. Ebikes are not prone to wheelspin.

In fact the ebikes, logically, should OPEN public lands to more people, who don't need to be as fit to get out and enjoy them.

But, no, let's call the cops. The "others" are on our trail.

so so lame.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> In fact the actual impact in the backcountry is less than the MTBs, and always will be. Why?
> 
> Range. Mtbs can go many many places which are out of range for the ebike.


Maybe in theory but if you look at the mountain biking community as a whole the average range is probably about 10 miles. Battery technology and electric bike range is increasing all the time. Potential user conflict is a real issue, maybe not with you but there are others.


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## Swissam (Apr 8, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> Maybe in theory but if you look at the mountain biking community as a whole the average range is probably about 10 miles. Battery technology and electric bike range is increasing all the time. Potential user conflict is a real issue, maybe not with you but there are others.


Exactly. If my friend who is on an ebike gets back to the trail head first and drinks all the beer then I'm going to conflict his face up pretty good. It's not good, we can't mix.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

uhoh7 said:


> I think this argument is a red herring. I find it hilarious that so many MTB people are aghast at the ebikes, exactly in the same way hikers and horse riders have been aghast at MTBs....to the point they are actually banned in wilderness.
> 
> If you just thought about it for a microsecond, you would possibly realize that the issues mountain bikers have had gaining trail access is precisely the reason why they are reluctant to endorse e-bikes. Why would they risk that hard-earned access to a few people too lazy or unfit to use sensitive, remote trails in the first place? Think real hard.
> 
> ...


So, so clueless.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> So, so clueless.


Lazy, clueless: obviously you are irrational to just throw such silly insults.

*"f you just thought about it for a microsecond, you would possibly realize that the issues mountain bikers have had gaining trail access is precisely the reason why they are reluctant to endorse e-bikes. Why would they risk that hard-earned access to a few people too lazy or unfit to use sensitive, remote trails in the first place? Think real hard."
*
If the impact to "sensitive remote trails" is identical....the hard thinking is required to paint one access method as evil and the other "just".

"*and many people would like to keep the land usable for future generations."*
yes, ebikes are going to ruin the land for the future. Seriously? Again, no logic.

*"Pedal-assist, no. Electric powered, absolutely. What land managers are going to take the time and resources to differentiate between the two?"*
You admit here that pedal-assist is equal impact. Lazy land management and outreach is just a given, I guess. Those managers already will tell you how wide a vehicle can be and many other aspects of what vehicles can and can't go places. Good management would differentiate like any law as new developments occur. They already differentiate between non-motorized users like horses, hikers and bikers. Sorry, again. Irrational.

*"So e-bikers will just trample the same trails more often."*
Ignorant of trails here. Good regular use prevents erosion. Close a trail and watch the rain eat out little canyons.

*"Of course they are. Have you never seen the high-powered electric bikes? They are motorcycles."*

I agree the Stealth Bombers are a different thing, though again totally NOT a motorcycle as we have known them. Far lower impact. Logically you would have pedal assist ebikes under 70 lbs and MTBs on the same trails. Then a new category of "Low Impact motorized" which would be 150 LBS and under, E and Gas powered. Then would come the KTMs and other enduros, which weigh 250LBS, and are in a totally different impact category. What's wrong with smart management. Anywhere you can have cows a MTB or pedal ebike should be allowed on trails. Most of those areas should allow low-impact motorized as well, rationally.

*"This might possibly make sense, as lazy rich people are more likely to ride e-bikes and have more political pull than us average mountain bikers."
*
Talk about pigeonholing and a caste mentality. "Us average mtbers?" OMG. I can tell you the average income of mtbers I see is certainly higher than the moto crowd. The horse people are also not poor, in general.

One thing I learn from your post is some of the animosity is tied to the powerful e-bikes, as opposed to the pedal assist. Yet there are already all sorts of regs on this subject.

A few youtube videos of 4500w e-bikes spinning out does not make a "problem". Thoughtless riding does, and that's common with all these methods. MTBers are disliked by hikers because they are pretty scary: you can't hear them coming, and there is alot of fast downhill riding. That is the only threat to access for you. Blaming Ebikes for it is....well it sounds just like Trump to me


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

The real problem with electric mountain bikes - BikeRadar USA

This is one of the best articles representing the resistance to e-bikes on trails. It isn't about erosion, it isn't about nimbyism, it isn't about purity or weakness or earn your turns, it is about access and the convoluted stewardship and administrative process that govern american trails and trail access. If you don't understand what is going on and why the reaction to E-bikes you need to read this and try to understand its point.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

That article made a lot of sense and some good ideals that would be helpful to all of us I would support it.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

uhoh7 said:


> Lazy, clueless: obviously you are irrational to just throw such silly insults.
> 
> You're right... "Lame" is so much better. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what Trump thinks on this subject, nor do I give any sort of a crap.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

rider95 said:


> That article made a lot of sense and some good ideals that would be helpful to all of us I would support it.


Really?
*"In the US, the cycling industry must figure out how to keep e-MTBs from ruining it for the rest of us" *
Basically the us vs them idea is right up front. The e-mtbs are going to "ruin it". If that's not nimbyism, what is?

Even though:
"*Early research shows that their impact is comparable to traditional mountain bikes"
*
*"....now, the primary concern should be making sure that anti-mountain bike zealots can't turn e-MTBs into a reason to run the rest of us off the trails"
*
So, because "zealots" are trying to run you off trails, you should be just like them and run others of those same trails who have no more impact than you?

The rest is just all about spreading the bad word, via apps, which funny enough, we already have here in Idaho:
ArcGIS Web Application

Yes by all means, let's make sure everyone knows there is no difference between a motocross bike and a pedal assist e-bike in our screwed up regulations.

Do you really think bicycles should be banned from the wilderness? What about stoves? I ride often in the White Clouds and I watched as the MTBers lost everything. The Moto people lost nothing.

When I hear MTBers applying the same stupid criteria to pedal assist which irrationally shut them out of the White Clouds....my sympathy level drops. You're a zealot? No, I'm a bigger zealot!

I just need to remind myself that most real world MTBers I meet are not like this, nor are the hikers etc, generally zealots.

I agree we should respect our trails and backcountry. I have seen my backcountry devastated by fires and beatles in a way which makes this concern about pedal assist seem utterly ridiculous.

These are PUBLIC lands. Let's make public access easy and fun and direct people to low impact ways, like pedal assist, to get there. Let's improve the regulations and make them smarter, not use them to exclude those who use a different transportation tool.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> Even though:
> "*Early research shows that their impact is comparable to traditional mountain bikes"
> *


*

Impact on the earth's surface isn't the only consideration, the environment can be impacted in other ways. Electric bikes don't belong everywhere, and neither do mtb's. Emphatically insisting that they do makes you sound like the zealot.*


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

uhoh7 said:


> Really?
> *"In the US, the cycling industry must figure out how to keep e-MTBs from ruining it for the rest of us" *
> Basically the us vs them idea is right up front. The e-mtbs are going to "ruin it". If that's not nimbyism, what is?
> 
> ...


 I have never understood what was wrong about giving more citizens more/easier access to their public lands. The more people, irregardless of their transport method, who enter and learn to love the backcountry the better. As a nation we are only improved by having more citizens spending more time outside and especially in the wild. And yes I believe that there will always be place that should be foot access only, low-power eMTBs and pMTBs should have equal access everywhere else. And everything else, like horses, 4x4s, quads, MXers and high-power eMTBs should be restricted to their own trails...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> I have never understood what was wrong about giving more citizens more/easier access to their public lands. The more people, irregardless of their transport method, who enter and learn to love the backcountry the better.


So you're ok with dirtbikes, ATVs, jeeps on your local trails? More people is always better right?

You know what has a ton of people on it? Interstate highways! Those are a blast on a mountain bike, or for a nice quiet hike.

Seriously, did you really mean what you posted? Or are you being facetious? More people is fine. More people who ruin the experiences of others (this often includes bikes of any kind) are not.

-Walt


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Walt said:


> So you're ok with dirtbikes, ATVs, jeeps on your local trails? More people is always better right?
> 
> You know what has a ton of people on it? Interstate highways! Those are a blast on a mountain bike, or for a nice quiet hike.
> 
> ...


You beat me to it! That post makes little sense, but I thought maybe it was just me.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

uhoh7 said:


> Lazy, clueless: obviously you are irrational to just throw such silly insults.
> 
> *"f you just thought about it for a microsecond, you would possibly realize that the issues mountain bikers have had gaining trail access is precisely the reason why they are reluctant to endorse e-bikes. Why would they risk that hard-earned access to a few people too lazy or unfit to use sensitive, remote trails in the first place? Think real hard."
> *
> ...


It's posts like this that make it very clear that you do not know anything about mtb access issues. You have no idea the amount of work it takes to just keep trails open, much less obtaining more access than we have now.

Why won't land managers just see the difference? People that already hate bikes are barely hanging on to arguments that they can use. The argument that they harm the environment has been proven false, now they focus on safety and speed.

A person that hasn't spent the time learning to ride and struggling to make it 5 or ten miles won't have the same respect for other trail users. They will jump on the bike, take it up to 20mph and just be an idiot. I have seen it myself.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Walt said:


> So you're ok with dirtbikes, ATVs, jeeps on your local trails? More people is always better right?
> 
> You know what has a ton of people on it? Interstate highways! Those are a blast on a mountain bike, or for a nice quiet hike.
> 
> ...


 If you would actually read the entire post you may see that I am equating eMTBs and pMTBs and allowing them the same access. That is what I was referring to when I used the phrase "irregardless of their transport method", but if you want to pretend I was advocating riding singletrack on a Cat D-9 I won't be surprised, since that is what passes for discourse here.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> And yes I believe that there will always be place that should be foot access only, low-power eMTBs and pMTBs should have equal access everywhere else. And everything else, like horses, 4x4s, quads, MXers and high-power eMTBs should be restricted to their own trails...


So your electric bike is ok on multi-use trails but horsies are a no-go? Nice of you to allow hikers.

Meanwhile, there are already plenty of wilderness trails accessible by motorized transit.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Great, we've turned into the horse people. Or sierra club.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

One Pivot said:


> Great, we've turned into the horse people. Or sierra club.


I dunno about that. I'd say we have become people protective of the access we have gained no thanks to horse and sierra club people and are being proactively, perhaps prematurely, reactive to the threat that these same people could see in e-bikes and correspondingly use it to deny us access as a whole to trails, even ones we currently can use. As is evident, we are no longer a small group of users but a large well organized group of trail stewards, e-bikes are a new complication to this.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Petition for land to use and grab a couple of armloads of tools and get to work.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> Impact on the earth's surface isn't the only consideration, the environment can be impacted in other ways. Electric bikes don't belong everywhere, and neither do mtb's. Emphatically insisting that they do makes you sound like the zealot.


I don't think everything should always be allowed on every trail. But I do think a silent e-bike, under 150 lbs, should be allowed on more trails than my 2-stroke, and pedal assist bikes should be allowed on any mtb trail open today.

I was going to say in the wilderness, maybe just mtbs should be allowed (on some trails, anyway), but in facts horses have a higher carbon footprint than real motorbikes, let alone a pedal e-bike. And we know the e-bike is not going to be harder on the trail either. You ride along on a non-native horse which takes huge money and carbon to keep, you can go anywhere. You ride on a pedal e-bike and you have to keep with the motorcycles?

Completely irrational, and really, like water rights, it's really about the stakeholders quest for control, not a concern for the backcountry.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

No, speed differentials are a legitimate concern. It's WHY MOUNTAIN BIKES ARE BANNED from some places. That simple - we are faster than other (hiker, equestrian) users. Take your kids on a hike on a popular mountain bike trail and you'll immediately realize why speed differential is a problem. People aren't offended by the bike itself, the are upset when you come around a corner too fast and scare them/their dog/their grandma. 

The second biggest problem is user density. Making activities easier generally makes them more popular, hence I'd expect e-bikes to increase user density on trails overall. 

So adding a motor will add speed AND add more users to the mix. That's a very bad combo for access because it exacerbates both of the biggest problems that mountain bikes have with sharing trails with other users. If you don't understand that, you really haven't spent any time doing real trail advocacy/work, or maybe you live somewhere with very few other trail users where basically anything goes. The vast majority of mountain bikers live in pretty densely populated areas and access to the trails near them is often tenuous at best. Hence the concern with e-bikes.

-Walt


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

uhoh7 said:


> I don't think everything should always be allowed on every trail. But I do think a silent e-bike, under 150 lbs, should be allowed on more trails than my 2-stroke, and pedal assist bikes should be allowed on any mtb trail open today.
> 
> I was going to say in the wilderness, maybe just mtbs should be allowed (on some trails, anyway), but in facts horses have a higher carbon footprint than real motorbikes, let alone a pedal e-bike. And we know the e-bike is not going to be harder on the trail either. You ride along on a non-native horse which takes huge money and carbon to keep, you can go anywhere. You ride on a pedal e-bike and you have to keep with the motorcycles?
> 
> Completely irrational, and really, like water rights, it's really about the stakeholders quest for control, not a concern for the backcountry.


For all of your ignorant rants claiming logic is "completely irrational, you refuse to actually acknowledge the facts. Land managers will not be able to or won't differentiate between mountain bikes, pedal-assist, and electric motorcycles. That means we will all be lumped together if people like you get what you want, and we will all lose access to trails. If electric motorcycles are allowed on mountain bike trails, sensitive trails will be damaged and mountain bikes might take the blame along with e-bikes. It's not a difficult concept to understand, but it would be nice if you would take this into consideration without blindly calling it "irrational" or "lame".


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Please mountainbike understand the difference between a hoverboard and a 10,000w elec Motorcycle elec pedal assist Mt bikes are not motorcycle !!!


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

uhoh7 said:


> I don't think everything should always be allowed on every trail. But I do think a silent e-bike, under 150 lbs, should be allowed on more trails than my 2-stroke, and pedal assist bikes should be allowed on any mtb trail open today.
> 
> I was going to say in the wilderness, maybe just mtbs should be allowed (on some trails, anyway), but in facts horses have a higher carbon footprint than real motorbikes, let alone a pedal e-bike. And we know the e-bike is not going to be harder on the trail either. You ride along on a non-native horse which takes huge money and carbon to keep, you can go anywhere. You ride on a pedal e-bike and you have to keep with the motorcycles?
> 
> Completely irrational, and really, like water rights, it's really about the stakeholders quest for control, not a concern for the backcountry.


Most equestrians think that horses are native to North America. I have not been successful in educating any of them.
When you start talking about the carbon footprint it gets complicated. You have to factor in if your bike is recyclable and if you are going to eat the horse when it gets old.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

We had this happen the other day on our local trail system in town. Biker injures senior citizen in Pocatello, then leaves her behind | Members | idahostatejournal.com Too bad it wasn't one of the 2 or 3 e-bikes that have been on that trail in recent weeks (one by me, one ridden by a long time mtbr who was very instrumental in getting the whole trail system opened up to start with years ago, working with the feds etc. plus doing the physical work also, the other by another guy who's been riding mtbr's and dirt bikes for multiple decades locally) that hit the old lady and then rode off, it would give you guys some new ammunition for your anti e bike arguments. After working his ass off to make it up the mountain, I don't blame him for wanting to haul ass down, too bad that legally allowed hiker had the nerve to get in his way. Crap, I hope the trail doesn't get closed to e bikes now.

After lurking here a few weeks, and reading the multiple threads that the sky is falling re: e bikes, I realized that specific examples as to how they were actually causing the end of the mtbr world as you know it were few and far between, like none. The one thing I can say is, a simple age limit may be one good way to dampen your fears. 50 and over, hell, 67 and over would work for me. It's a safe assumption us old farts, having survived this long, have our **** together enough to not ruin things for you guys. We also can stay the hell out of your way on the down hills, just give a holler. In return, move over and let us pass on the uphills. Just kidding on that last part, (not really)! I ride p bike speeds when mixing it up with them, seems only fair, no use rubbing it in and getting people riled up.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> No, speed differentials are a legitimate concern. It's WHY MOUNTAIN BIKES ARE BANNED from some places. That simple - we are faster than other (hiker, equestrian) users. Take your kids on a hike on a popular mountain bike trail and you'll immediately realize why speed differential is a problem. People aren't offended by the bike itself, the are upset when you come around a corner too fast and scare them/their dog/their grandma.
> 
> The second biggest problem is user density. Making activities easier generally makes them more popular, hence I'd expect e-bikes to increase user density on trails overall.
> 
> ...


TY for your polite tone, Walt. I agree speed differential is the root of much fear. But that is not going to be any worse with e-bikes (pedal assist) in general. It's a rider issue. 35 years on the trails here I have never not been able to stop for hiker on motorbike or mtb. But I have seen mtbs unable to stop....often. It's a minority but not a small one, that really want to rip the downhills. Thin wheels don't brake well from high speeds on the dirt, as opposed to my trials bike which can stop very fast with little fuss. I would say 3" pedal assist bike is also going to stop a little better.

That's the real reason mtbs have access threatened. Some of them are watching too many youtubes LOL. I like a little speed, but jeez some of these kids are really flying. Yet the majority is not, and are no danger to anyone. They suffer for the gonzo faction of mtbers, not e-bikes. Just as the majority of responsible moto riders suffer for the behavior of 20%.

Density of course is an issue, but one which is exacerbated by relegating mtbs or motos to a few trails.

A more sophisticated regulation would warn mtb riders when they should take it especially easy for density.

The bottom line is mtbers should be yelling at the 20% reckless riding faction, not e-bilke riders (unless they are reckless too). That's the only genuine reason some trail use may be under threat.

Pedal assist or not has little to do with bad behavior on trails. None of this has anything to do with the bans on mtb in wilderness. There are many new empty wilderness areas now, like the white clouds, where restrictions on mtb riding are totally arbitrary. Minority bashing. Like happens to us poor e-bike people LOL Wait....I don't have one yet....they say around the first of July my Haibike Amt + should be here.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

rlee said:


> Most equestrians think that horses are native to North America. I have not been successful in educating any of them.


Well, they did evolve here at least.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

rider95 said:


> Please mountainbike understand the difference between a hoverboard and a 10,000w elec Motorcycle elec pedal assist Mt bikes are not motorcycle !!!


For the 3rd time this thread, it's not me that doesn't understand the difference, and it's not me that people should be concerned about. It's the land managers that won't or can't notice the difference between them. It's relatively easy to make an electric bike look like a pedal-assist.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Walt said:


> No, speed differentials are a legitimate concern. It's WHY MOUNTAIN BIKES ARE BANNED from some places. That simple - we are faster than other (hiker, equestrian) users. Take your kids on a hike on a popular mountain bike trail and you'll immediately realize why speed differential is a problem. People aren't offended by the bike itself, the are upset when you come around a corner too fast and scare them/their dog/their grandma.
> 
> The second biggest problem is user density. Making activities easier generally makes them more popular, hence I'd expect e-bikes to increase user density on trails overall.
> 
> ...


Well stated. I agree that speed is the #1 concern, followed by trail density. Trail damage/erosion is a far distant 3rd IMO.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Are you really arguing that e-bikes won't make otherwise slow/inexperienced riders much faster? Those are the folks *most* likely to act like jerks in the first place. Furthermore, the jerks are the ones most likely to modify/increase power and speed on their e-bikes and basically turn pedal assist setups into motos. 

And for what? So mountain biking can be easier? Why should it be easier? Easy isn't the point, if you want something easy, take up golf for god's sake. If you're too lazy or unfit to hike the AT, nobody would say you should be allowed to ride an ATV on it, right? The fact that an activity is physically difficult doesn't mean that a motorized assist is automatically somehow legit. 

So you're contemplating opening a pandora's box of motorized (to wildly varying degrees) vehicles on trails with sensitive access, all because you want riding to be *easier*. To me, that's just baffling. I'd happily give up all sorts of modern bike technology to *keep* access to trails. Want to take away my suspension? Fine. I'd rather have the trails than some gadgets. I guess for some people it's more about the bike than the ride. Weird.

-Walt


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I've always agreed with the thought that the bicycle is man's noblest invention. 

The very concept of the bicycle is that it's human powered. Adding a motor is not an improvement. It's a change that turns it into something else. Something less than it was meant to be. I believe there is a place for the motorized version, but it should never be considered to be the functional equivalent of the human powered version and shouldn't be allowed the same access. 

I'm not of the mind that e-bikes will destroy trails. They may, they may not. They may (and probably already have) give ammunition to those trying to deny us access. We'll see, I guess. I just disagree with them philosophically, even though I have ridden them and think they are cool.

Just my $.02 worth.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

The E bike is just another improvement in the bicycle a bit more exciting yes and opening doors for some to enjoy the trails , instead of me loading a $6000 carbon 29 er on to a $400 bike rack that's on the back of a $60,000 suv to drive 10mi to the trail head. I just ride there not needing anything but a full battery and once on the trail I ride the same speed if not slower and leave the same foot print as a reg mt bike . To me this is pretty cool and a whole lot of fun you will see for your self sooner or later .


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I've seen for myself, as I've said before. I have ridden one. It is fun. I don't want one and don't think they should be granted the same access. Pretty simple. Difference of opinion, is all. Enjoy E-legally.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

rider95 said:


> The E bike is just another improvement in the bicycle a bit more exciting yes and opening doors for some to enjoy the trails , instead of me loading a $6000 carbon 29 er on to a $400 bike rack that's on the back of a $60,000 suv to drive 10mi to the trail head. I just ride there not needing anything but a full battery and once on the trail I ride the same speed if not slower and leave the same foot print as a reg mt bike . To me this is pretty cool and a whole lot of fun you will see for your self sooner or later .


You could take the next step and just ride without a battery or a motor to the trailhead.

-Walt


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

How many times do you do that?? for me that's not possible and e bikes aren't for everyone but they can be very helpful to others , I am not saying that everyone should ride one .


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> How many times do you do that??


When I lived within 10 miles of a trailhead it was about 100% of the time.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

rider95 said:


> How many times do you do that?? for me that's not possible and e bikes aren't for everyone but they can be very helpful to others , I am not saying that everyone should ride one .


Pretty much, um, every time?

To be fair, too - how many people who purchase an electric mountain bike are going to zoom to the trailhead and then sedately ride at non-electric speed once there?

Basically none. They'll put it on a bike rack and drive, soup it up, and go get their shred on.

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> Are you really arguing that e-bikes won't make otherwise slow/inexperienced riders much faster? Those are the folks *most* likely to act like jerks in the first place. Furthermore, the jerks are the ones most likely to modify/increase power and speed on their e-bikes and basically turn pedal assist setups into motos.
> -Walt


You think slow inexperienced riders are going to suddenly ride really fast and act like jerks if they get a pedal assist? Hilarious.

Nobody rides fast for very long unless they are skilled. One crash and reality gives hard lessons to the inexperienced, especially.

And these same inexperienced jerks are suddenly going to mod their pedal assist bikes into fire-breathing "motos"? You mean when their Haibike will go 30 instead of 20? This mods just increase the assist at speed, while damage to trails occurs with acceleration to or from a low speed.

I'm surprised you put such a certain tone to complete groundless speculation, when was really is certain is the reckless 20% of mtbs are the ONLY people responsible for the negative view of riders today.

You guys are locked out of many places now, why? So desperate to blame somebody else for a mountain biker rider problem.



chuckha62 said:


> I've always agreed with the thought that the bicycle is man's noblest invention.
> 
> The very concept of the bicycle is that it's human powered. Adding a motor is not an improvement. It's a change that turns it into something else. Something less than it was meant to be. I believe there is a place for the motorized version, but it should never be considered to be the functional equivalent of the human powered version and shouldn't be allowed the same access.
> 
> ...


Bikes are cool. Noble? Oh come on. The wright brothers were bike makers. Look at they evil they have accomplished  It's true you get somewhere with no carbon coming out. So would an e-bike charged by solar panels. The single defensible meter of "nobility" in this context is really just your footprint overall. Do you also own a car? Do you fly? Do you have kids? There is every chance that ******* on a CRF250 is in fact considerably more "noble" than you or me, as far as the planet is concerned. 



J.B. Weld said:


> When I lived within 10 miles of a trailhead it was about 100% of the time.


Great, how old were you? I'm in my late 50s. I know, there are some serious mtb studs older than me. But wait till you get here. You still will have decent stamina, but what you cannot take is crashes and by this time you are likely to have some joint damage somewhere. The E-bike will let me ride more places with less desperation. Doesn't make any noise, doesn't tear up the trail.

No, Charlie, you idiot, don't you see the E-bike is an evil invention that will steal the single track from the mouths of innocent young mtb fanatics who crave the noble extreme?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I am aware that it's a mountain biker problem. I've said as much many times. Adding more speed/power to mountain bikes makes that problem *worse*. Pretty simple. 

-Walt


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

rockcrusher said:


> The real problem with electric mountain bikes - BikeRadar USA
> 
> This is one of the best articles representing the resistance to e-bikes on trails. It isn't about erosion, it isn't about nimbyism, it isn't about purity or weakness or earn your turns, it is about access and the convoluted stewardship and administrative process that govern american trails and trail access. If you don't understand what is going on and why the reaction to E-bikes you need to read this and try to understand its point.


I understand it's point.

The problem is - it's point is largely: "We got ours, now screw off because you might screw up what we have"

It's the same sort of greed exhibited by hikers and equestrians toward mountain biking.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

aborgman said:


> It's the same sort of greed exhibited by hikers and equestrians toward mountain biking.


Not at all. Mountain bikes are dramatically faster than either of those user groups and in some places are so disruptive that it's not acceptable to have them on trails. If you ever hike, you understand this immediately. Where to draw the line is a matter of debate but there's no question there are places bikes just don't belong because it ruins things for everyone else.

-Walt


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> Not at all. Mountain bikes are dramatically faster than either of those user groups and in some places are so disruptive that it's not acceptable to have them on trails. If you ever hike, you understand this immediately. Where to draw the line is a matter of debate but there's no question there are places bikes just don't belong because it ruins things for everyone else.
> 
> -Walt


There are places where bikes don't belong.

There are places where horses don't belong.

There are places where humans don't belong.

If you want to make arguments for division based on logical and objective criteria - I take little issue with it.

...but that isn't what these arguments amount to. They aren't "we need to seperate users in situation X for safety" or "This isn't environmentally supportable"...

They're "we got access (with no note of whether that causes any problems) and we're going to selfishly guard it" arguments.

The next mountain biker I see make an argument that mountain bikes should be removed from trails they currently have access to for one of the reasons they use for not allowing e-mtbs will be the first.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

The Noblest Invention The book

Possibly lost on you, but that's okay. "The Noblest Invention". A great read. I didn't state it for anyone to pick apart, just as I don't pick apart your pro statements.

I just happen to concur with the sentiment. If you don't, no worries. And... it's not about the carbon footprint, I charge an electric Ford Ranger from solar panels already, so it has nothing to do with any of that.

As I said, it's philosophical for me. Motor vs. no motor, cut and dry.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

chuckha62 said:


> The Noblest Invention The book
> 
> Possibly lost on you, but that's okay. "The Noblest Invention". A great read. I didn't state it for anyone to pick apart, just as I don't pick apart your pro statements.
> 
> ...


Much is lost on most of us.  We can only think of one thing at a moment, and moments are limited. TY for the link, and appreciate the reply. Just bought the book.

But "motor vs no motor, cut and dry"?

Do you know the difference between a motor and a engine?

Motorized regulation in the backcountry is spawned by use of engines. E-bikes don't have an engine.

That's a good thing  But so many, not you, want to pi$$ all over them. :madman:


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

uhoh7 said:


> You think slow inexperienced riders are going to suddenly ride really fast and act like jerks if they get a pedal assist? Hilarious.
> 
> Nobody rides fast for very long unless they are skilled. One crash and reality gives hard lessons to the inexperienced, especially.
> 
> And these same inexperienced jerks are suddenly going to mod their pedal assist bikes into fire-breathing "motos"? You mean when their Haibike will go 30 instead of 20? This mods just increase the assist at speed, while damage to trails occurs with acceleration to or from a low speed.


Give an inexperienced rider more speed without the experience and skill to go along with it is going to cause problems for all trail users. These riders may not know what to do with horses or when to yield to other trail users.

Yes, I do believe many people will convert pedal-assist bikes to throttle-equipped electric motorcycles. For sure some motorcycle riders who want access to more trails.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

uhoh7 said:


> Much is lost on most of us.  We can only think of one thing at a moment, and moments are limited. TY for the link, and appreciate the reply. Just bought the book.
> 
> But "motor vs no motor, cut and dry"?
> 
> ...


So why are regulations on vehicles with engines called motorized?


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Give an inexperienced rider more speed without the experience and skill to go along with it is going to cause problems for all trail users. These riders may not know what to do with horses or when to yield to other trail users.
> 
> Yes, I do believe many people will convert pedal-assist bikes to throttle-equipped electric motorcycles. For sure some motorcycle riders who want access to more trails.


Pure speculation on all counts and "many people" converting to throttle is fantasy.

From my experience, 35 years on Idaho trails, and a ride on a Haibike sduro RC, I would come to the opposite conclusion. Inexperienced riders will be safer on the e-bike, because they are going to have alot more control and bail much less.

Inexperienced riders don't go fast, period. On a bike, on a e-bike, on a motorcycle. I've watched hundreds of them over the years.

The only people who are going to be a problem on an e-bike are already a problem on a mtb.



mountainbiker24 said:


> So why are regulations on vehicles with engines called motorized?


Because when those rules were made, engines were the only motors you saw in the backcountry.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> But "motor vs no motor, cut and dry"? Do you know the difference between a motor and a engine?


Ha! Let me just say, Yes.

Here's a dichotomy for you. As I said, I charge a fully electric Ford Ranger from roof mounted Solar Panels.

...but here's my "real" ride:

Now, which one has a motor and which one has an ENGINE?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

uhoh7 said:


> The only people who are going to be a problem on an e-bike are already a problem on a mtb.


No, it will attract some people who currently don't ride because of laziness who will be jerks on the trail, and it'll make the existing non-e jerks even worse. It will increase problems across the board to add power and speed, period. Adding users just adds fuel to the fire as well (especially if it's moto folks who see an opportunity to get onto no-motor trails).

-Walt


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

uhoh7 said:


> Pure speculation on all counts and "many people" converting to throttle is fantasy.
> 
> From my experience, 35 years on Idaho trails, and a ride on a Haibike sduro RC, I would come to the opposite conclusion. Inexperienced riders will be safer on the e-bike, because they are going to have alot more control and bail much less.
> 
> ...


"Fast" is a relative term. Slow can still be out of control. Not all e-bikers will be converted mountain bikers. I also fail to see how your 35 years on Idaho trails relates to such a fairly new development. You are quickly becoming the biggest joke in this thread.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> Great, how old were you? I'm in my late 50s.


Nearly there bro, I ain't crying. I'm riding all I can now because I'm aware that I'll probably be walking the same trails someday, or riding smoother paths. Time waits for no one.


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

uhoh7, would you be cool with someone on a small, light electric motorcycle that topped out around 20mph the trails? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious where we would draw the line.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Cmon JB own it! How old are you?



formula4speed said:


> uhoh7, would you be cool with someone on a small, light electric motorcycle that topped out around 20mph the trails? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious where we would draw the line.


I would not have a problem with that myself, at all. It's how bikes are ridden that makes all the difference, and there is nothing more dangerous in the backcountry than a fast DH mtn biker. Motos are not even close to being so dangerous. Both for the fast riders and the other trail users. Logically, if it can go on a bike path legally, why on earth can't it go on a mtb trail?

However, I don't think my own view is the only way to look at it. Since everybody is so paranoid and depens on the issue, I would be fine with pedelecs under 80 lbs being generally allowed on mtbs trails, but anything more banned. Not totally rational but at least reasonable. Those bikes are heavily restricted and regulated already.

I believe we need a all new paradyne for trail designation in the backcountry, with more sophisticated regulations. For example, there should be trails opened to mtbers on the condition the ride extra careful and aware, and don't run DH at high speed.

Now technically the FS would say this is already the case on all mtb trails, but we know that's a lie. In fact, those 20% gonzo riders are riding illegally as it is. Youtube is full of guys ripping it DH in the USFS and BLM, who are riding totally illegally: way too fast. Nobody says a thing, if they don't fall or hit somebody. Just the opposite, these riders are lionized.

Let's own that to some degree, and make trails where it's especially a no-no. That to my mind would include some wilderness access for mtbs. Maybe even the mellow pedelecs are banned on those wilderness trails, not because there's a good reason, but to make some people more comfortable.

I believe in compromise. 

But, moving back to the "real ebikes" i.e. no pedals, should they really be just as restricted as a 250Lb enduro motorbike? Not rationally. They should be allowed in many more places because they are much lower impact, as for that matter are trials motorcycles like this one:


TXT Pro by unoh7, on Flickr

That bike is lower impact on trails than any mtb, let alone a KTM like:

Danger Will Robinson by unoh7, on Flickr

though if you look close the ktm has trials tires front and rear, and is about 25-30 lighter than the normal enduros, so it's on the light impact spectrum of enduro bikes. The point is: users who use a lower impact form of backcountry access should be rewarded with more access. If that were true there would be alot more trials motorbikes out there, and less motocross bikes. The USFS could change the whole motorized (enginized) game with smart regulations

For wilderness and other special access maybe there needs to be a permit system for mtbs. That way at least it would not be hard to track down misbehaviors. BTW I never met a backcountry moto rider who thought mtbs should be banned from wilderness, or that motos should be allowed in: though many do think the "wilderness" designation is just a way to keep blue collar rural locals away.

As it is, the model for trail designations in USFS is akin to water and mining rights. Irrational with old stakeholder concerns addressed and new user types out of luck. Nobody has suffered more from this mindset than mtb riders. So when I hear them want to adopt the same kind of attitude to pedelec...well it's hypocrisy, and most like chickens pecking "down" on the younger ones than anything else. The mtbs have been pecked really hard, and now they are ready do some serious pecking on the poor pedelecs 

Pedelecs and ebikes are a great new thing, a real alternative to combustion, and much harder to ride abusively than a 50 hp enduro bike. People who like backcountry should applaud their rise, not spit on them.

US sales are now around 160,000. European sales are at 16 million. But then they are a lot better educated than us


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> Cmon JB own it! How old are you?


54, is this a contest? What do I win?


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> 54, is this a contest? What do I win?


Oh... Can I play? I'm 54 too, as of last January. Is this a big deal?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

aborgman said:


> I understand it's point.
> 
> The problem is - it's point is largely: "We got ours, now screw off because you might screw up what we have"
> 
> It's the same sort of greed exhibited by hikers and equestrians toward mountain biking.


No. Not even close. Why do I even bother? Keep riding your e-bikes on trails. Maybe you can be "that guy" that gets it all screwed up for all riders, ebikers and mountain bikers alike.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Jeez...you guys are.....old. I'm impressed. 

But prepare for a steep descent 

nice GTO, sir 



rockcrusher said:


> No. Not even close. Why do I even bother? Keep riding your e-bikes on trails. Maybe you can be "that guy" that gets it all screwed up for all riders, ebikers and mountain bikers alike.


Hey, he has point. I think it's the whole "pecking order" behavior, which to be fair, has 200 million years of tradition across many species 

some days I actually hike 

Next Step by unoh7, on Flickr

I did ride my mojo halfway on this one


Close Sentiment by unoh7, on Flickr


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## c8stom (May 19, 2015)

uhoh7 said:


> You think slow inexperienced riders are going to suddenly ride really fast and act like jerks if they get a pedal assist? Hilarious.


Hilarious it may be but this very thing has actually happened.

China and Taiwan embraced E-bikes many years ago. As cheap tax free and license free unregulated alternatives to mopeds/motorcycles, their popularity exploded as commuting vehicles. The hoppers hopped them up and the manfacturers followed. With that came major increases in accidents and some deaths raising concerns and a public backlash.

To put some of the fires out, China banned E-bikes from large parts of certain cities whilst Taiwan kicked off the implementation of mandatory licensing, certification, a lower power assist cutout, banning from pavements and other safety measures

If laws/regulations were put in place at the start to ensure E-bikers, sellers and manufacturers were more accountable for their actions, I am sure they could have avoided the problems they had.

In HK, bicycles can ony be ridden on bicycle paths or approved trails. Pedestrians can only walk on pavements or pedestrianised areas. Registered motor vehicles can only be driven on roads. E-bikes are completely illegal. There is little to no sharing of space and therefore no conflict between groups but it does mean routes are limited.

When I read all these threads, I do think some of you need to learn to appreciate the freedoms you already have and to learn to make the most of them instead of focusing on what you don't have.:thumbsup:


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> Jeez...you guys are.....old. I'm impressed.
> 
> But prepare for a steep descent


Yeah, I know. Mid-50's, late 50's- _totally_ different!


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

rockcrusher said:


> No. Not even close. Why do I even bother?


Yeah, totally close.

As Shakespeare once wrote - "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"



rockcrusher said:


> Keep riding your e-bikes on trails. Maybe you can be "that guy" that gets it all screwed up for all riders, ebikers and mountain bikers alike.


I don't ride an e-bike. Don't own an e-bike. Don't have any interest at all in e-bikes.

...but this is a scenarios I've seen so many times before.

I'm a hunter - and I've seen this same sort of behavior between archery and firearm hunters.

I'm a fisherman - and I've seen this same sort of behavior between bait fisherman and fly fisherman, as well as those that eat fish and those that practice catch-and -release.

I've been a snowboarder for 30 years. I remember when ski resorts didn't allow snowboarding. I remember seeing exactly this sort of behavior from skiiers.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

c8stom said:


> Hilarious it may be but this very thing has actually happened.
> 
> China and Taiwan embraced E-bikes many years ago. As cheap tax free and license free unregulated alternatives to mopeds/motorcycles, their popularity exploded as commuting vehicles. The hoppers hopped them up and the manfacturers followed. With that came major increases in accidents and some deaths raising concerns and a public backlash.
> 
> ...


wikipedia:
"In China, e-bikes currently come under the same classification as bicycles and hence don't require a driver's license to operate. Previously it was required that users registered their bike in order to be recovered if stolen, although this has recently been abolished. Due to a recent rise in electric-bicycle-related accidents, caused mostly by inexperienced riders who ride on the wrong side of the road, run red lights, don't use headlights at night etc., the Chinese government plans to change the legal status of illegal bicycles so that vehicles with an unladen weight of 20 kg (44 lb) or more and a top speed of 30 km/h (19 mph) or more will require a motorcycle license to operate, while vehicles lighter than 20 kg (44 lb) and slower than 30 km/h can be ridden unlicensed. In the southern Chinese cities of Guangzhou, Dongguan and Shenzhen, e-bikes, like all motorcycles, are banned from certain downtown districts. There are also bans in place in small areas of Shanghai, Hangzhou and Beijing. Bans of "Scooter-Style Electric Bikes" (SSEB) were however cancelled and in Shenzhen e-bikes may be seen on the streets nowadays (2010-11).

Electric powered bicycles slower than 20 km/h without pedaling are legally recognized as a non-mechanically operated vehicle in China.[30] According to "TECHNOLOGY WATCH", this should help promote its widespread use.[31] Electric bicycles were banned in some areas of Beijing from August 2002 to January 2006 due to concerns over environmental, safety and city image issues. Beijing has re-allowed use of approved electric bicycles as of January 4, 2006.[32] Some cities in China still ban electric bikes."

In China and in the USA today: a 240w restricted pedelec is considered a bicycle. Why not reward people for that choice (not a more powerful system) with access to trails which they will not impact any more than a normal mtb?

There is no logical reason, but apparently the nightmare hiking zealots will "use the pedelecs to ban us" trumps real world impact. What do they say: "the terrorists have won!"

It's a alptraum, not reality. Sure a few anti-mtg people might use the idea, but if it's not available do you think they are going to relax? They will find a reason to oppose you.

The best defense against them is to focus on respect and then work the system to address an antiquated regulation in public lands which restricts a pedelec like a KTM, and bans mtbs from "Wilderness" outright.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Have you ever been to a trail access/construction/planning event involving the non-cycling public? 

I have. Way too much of my life has been spent in uncomfortable chairs waiting for my allotted 4 minutes. 

It's a real eye opener. Trust me, e-bikes will be used as a bludgeon against trail access for bikes soon, if they haven't been already. 

-Walt


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

aborgman said:


> Yeah, totally close.
> 
> As Shakespeare once wrote - "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
> 
> ...


 Ha ha ha ,indeed! More recently, when the sail plane crowd started hanging out at the hang gliding site in Moore, Idaho, same old same old, it was going to be the end of the world. Then the para glider crowd was going to ruin everything. Neither happened. They all get along now, and all still have access where needed. In fact, now that I think about it, the greater total number of participants gave them more pull then before, with the FS etc. Especially as the sail plane guys have more money and are an older crowd then the hang glider riff raff. (tongue in cheek, I used to be one).


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't think any of those analogies are very apt. Ski vs. snowboard (I was around for that too) is honestly more like 29er vs fatbike vs 26 or something equally silly. Snowboards aren't motorized skis, and there was no question of skiers losing access to the mountains because of snowboards. 

Likewise, if archers stood to lose access because of rifle hunters - that would be a similar issue. Otherwise, it's just tribalism, which is of course lamentable. 

Look, I'm a former moto person. I have no bias against motors. I just think they belong with other stuff with motors. 

-Walt


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

aborgman said:


> Yeah, totally close.
> 
> As Shakespeare once wrote - "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
> 
> ...


Yeah aside from the fact that in your examples none of the comparisons are illegal in the areas available in most states, or at least not officially sanctioned. Also no one could use fly fishermen to push all fishing off a rivers. No one could use snowboarders to push all gravity sports off hills. No one could use archery as a way of pushing hunting off land.

Yet one could easily use ebikes to push all bikes off trails. If they are using strava to do it then they sure as hell can use ebikes. If speed is what they are using then ebikes will be ample ammunition, because speed and motors.

I hope I'm wrong and other trail users won't see a threat in electric bicycles and the local trail managers will determine there is no reason not to let them on trails but I fear that it is a distinct possibility, because theses people want all bikes off the trails.

You can monkey around, espousing we all have a stake, but that's not the case. We have no stake in making motorcycles legal on trails, nor jeeps, and since ebikes are not allowed on most trails, especially federal lands, then there is no difference, excluding a few shared parts and this forum on a mountain bike site.

sent


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> It's a real eye opener. Trust me, e-bikes will be used as a bludgeon against trail access for bikes soon, if they haven't been already.


I'm sure they will.

...and you can have them there along side you, or you can have them not there and being adversarial.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

rockcrusher said:


> Also no one could use fly fishermen to push all fishing off a rivers.


Here in Michigan we have sections of river (and almost always the best sections) which are fly-only, artificial lure only, or catch-and-release only.

They got that way because fly fishermen petitioned for it - and in doing so, they ticked off lots of bait fishermen, and that distrust has led to significant issues in dealing with transport of baitfish and the problems it has caused with moving disease to different bodies of water in the state.



rockcrusher said:


> No one could use snowboarders to push all gravity sports off hills.


No - but that could to push them off some hills. No one is going to use e-mtb as a justification to push all mtbs off all trails.

...and I was around before snowboarders were allowed on the hills, and I remember the skiiers trying to keep us off, very vigorously.



rockcrusher said:


> No one could use archery as a way of pushing hunting off land.


Of COURSE they could. Archery hunting is one of the biggest targets, especially in urban areas, for anti-hunting sentiment. Deer run a good ways even after a good shot with a bow, and a deer running down a suburban street bleeding is a PETA dream.

...and battles between archery hunters and firearms hunters here have revolved around seasons (length and when they start), the ability to shoot antlerless deer without a special tag with archery equipment, and crossbows mostly - and they haven't caused major issues yet, but there has been definite fracturing and loss of power in the state hunting/conservation organizations caused by it.



rockcrusher said:


> Yet one could easily use ebikes to push all bikes off trails. If they are using strava to do it then they sure as hell can use ebikes. If speed is what they are using then ebikes will be ample ammunition, because speed and motors.


If they're able to use strava to do it - bikers aren't behaving, and it's potentially a trail bikes (nor e-bikes) belong on. There are trails that mountain bikes currently have access to from which they should be removed.



rockcrusher said:


> I hope I'm wrong and other trail users won't see a threat in electric bicycles and the local trail managers will determine there is no reason not to let them on trails but I fear that it is a distinct possibility, because theses people want all bikes off the trails.


For some trials - those people are right.

For other trails - I don't think you'll see a huge delta in impact (social or environmental) between mtb and e-mtb. The places where one is an issue the other also will be, and the places where one isn't an issue the other won't be.



rockcrusher said:


> You can monkey around, espousing we all have a stake, but that's not the case. We have no stake in making motorcycles legal on trails, nor jeeps,


I disagree.

All trail users have a stake in opening trails where appropriate to appropriate users, and closing inappropriate trails to inappropriate users.

That means sometimes you advocate for motorcycles on a certain trail, and that means you advocate for removing mountain bikes on a different trail.

In a large sense the land managers don't care - they just want to avoid hassle and go with the group that shows up, is the squeaky wheel, etc.

The more users (hunters, hikers, ORV users, etc, etc.) you can get to agree on things and compromise before showing up with proposals - the more successful they'll be... I've also seen lands closed to everyone because user groups couldn't get along and the land owner didn't want to deal with it.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

aborgman said:


> I'm sure they will.
> 
> ...and you can have them there along side you, or you can have them not there and being adversarial.


I would rather side with the Sierra Club than with electric motorcycles on many of my local trails if it came down to it. Judging by the inexperience and ignorance of the e-bike community represented on this website, I'd much prefer to fight against them than with them. Heck, e-bikes might just bring mountain bikers and hikers common ground.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I would rather side with the Sierra Club than with electric motorcycles on many of my local trails if it came down to it. Judging by the inexperience and ignorance of the e-bike community represented on this website, I'd much prefer to fight against them than with them. Heck, e-bikes might just bring mountain bikers and hikers common ground.


I'd rather side with both of them, avoid an adversarial relationship, and find places we can find common ground - which will mean compromise and give and take between all the groups.

It means hikers will get some trails closed to everything, but have some closed trails opened to mtb. It means some mtb trails will allow e-mtbs, and others won't. It may even mean some trails which are close to hikers and mtbs and open only to e-mtbs.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

We have common ground - motorized trails that already exist. Assist moto type bikes will open up a lot of those areas to more bicycle-like experience and make a lot of the less pleasant trails fun. Huge win if you live near lots of motorized trails. 

On the other hand, nonmotorized trails should be a total no-go. If you think the anti motor crowd here is rough, try talking to a hiking group!

-Walt


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Walt said:


> We have common ground - motorized trails that already exist. Assist moto type bikes will open up a lot of those areas to more bicycle-like experience and make a lot of the less pleasant trails fun. Huge win if you live near lots of motorized trails.
> 
> On the other hand, nonmotorized trails should be a total no-go. If you think the anti motor crowd here is rough, try talking to a hiking group!
> 
> -Walt


Walt you are right. I have seen lots of comments about how e-bikes are the evolution of the bicycle. I don't see how adding a motor does this.
A e-bike as the evolution of the motorcycle makes sense. Cleaner, less noise, more affordable to operate.
Maybe a e-bike is too slow to share a trail with a motorbike, but in a few years it will definitely be too fast to share a trail with a bicycle.


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## TheBigC (Jan 3, 2005)

rlee said:


> A e-bike as the evolution of the motorcycle makes sense. Cleaner, less noise, more affordable to operate.
> Maybe a e-bike is too slow to share a trail with a motorbike, but in a few years it will definitely be too fast to share a trail with a bicycle.


I really dislike the bike companies for this issue. Why do they need to put motors on bicycles? I know the population is getting increasingly lazy, but if you want an off road motorized adventure, go get a dirt bike. Don't like the noise? There's a solution for that: https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-mx/2013/
There really isn't much of a difference between that and a hotrodded e-bike. Electric motors on both. One is a just bigger than the other.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Because e bikes are fun and safer for all trail users e bikes don't bomb down hills scaring hikers and they are just like a MT bike looks feel and ride , you can call us names but e bikes are here to stay and soon on a trail near you enjoy!!


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## Ghost_HTX (Sep 19, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Because e bikes are fun and safer for all trail users e bikes don't bomb down hills scaring hikers and they are just like a MT bike looks feel and ride , you can call us names but e bikes are here to stay and soon on a trail near you enjoy!!


Do you even read the stuff you write? This is the equivalent of childishly sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "la la la la I can't hear you".

No, I'm not calling you a child, I am stating that your debating style is childish. Not calling you names, just commenting on what you are doing and how you go about doing it.

I won't doubt that e-bikes are fun - but that in itself is quite egotistical, no? Your fun will probably end up spoiling it for everyone else.

E-bikes are safer? Really? Says who? Intrinsically of themselves? Due to the way they are ridden? Due to the demographic who own them? Due to the fact that they have been around for a (relatively) short time and so have been involved in fewer accidents?

"e bikes (sic) don't bomb down hills". What? Did Specialiized install some sort of sensor that prevents the Turbo Levo Fatty Thingy (TM) from descending? How is this achieved? Do the front brakes activate and pop the lazy SOB riding it over the bars if he so much as thinks of going down hill with intent?

Please at least try to qualify and quantify your claims.

People are getting less fit and more fat. A generalisation, I know - but check the medical literature - obesity is getting out of hand in the developed world and the "average" BMI, weight and waist size is getting bigger as a result.

Just imagine;

*Husband *(300lbs) "Hey honey - I'm going out for a bike ride"
*Wife *(350lbs) "Ok sweetie - good for you getting some excercise"
*Husband (300lbs) *"he he, yeah - I'm only setting the motor to 350W output today too!"
*Wife *(350lbs) "Hercules! Hercules!"

WAL-E wasn't so far off after all...


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

c8stom said:


> It's big, heavy, fast and he's stupid.
> 
> What can you do ?


I think you called it, and it explains many of the posts, threads and having such a forum on MTBR.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Like I said you can call us name see above ! but it wont change a thing the mt bike community is a lot bigger than the closed minded rude riders that reply here . The e bike has come in to its own now with all the bike Manufactures coming out with there own e bike we will see more of them , like it or not the bike manufactures will push for trail access not all trails but most for sure . The good news for you rude riders is that it wont have any effect on your trail none! , so relax a little the sky is not falling stop with the name calling . Now who sounds like a child ???


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

rider95 said:


> Like I said you can call us name see above ! but it wont change a thing the mt bike community is a lot bigger than the closed minded rude riders that reply here . The e bike has come in to its own now with all the bike Manufactures coming out with there own e bike we will see more of them , like it or not the bike manufactures will push for trail access not all trails but most for sure . The good news for you rude riders is that it wont have any effect on your trail none! , so relax a little the sky is not falling stop with the name calling . Now who sounds like a child ???


I am still waiting for Bike mfgs. to show up or fund trail work in my area, but I am sure they won't hesitate to pressure their indepndent distributors or threaten their arrangements if they don't do something that comes out of the pockets of the LBS.

In answer to your question, you still sound like the "child" due to your simplistic view of trail access issues.

Also, you shouldn't be so sensitive on name calling and ribbing. The OP made a humorous comment that sum up a lot of the crap in this forum. This forum doesn't belong to the public, the owner(s) can do whatever they want with it. At the same time, it might be unrealistic (putting it diplomatically) to expect a welcoming without criticism and ribbing, as many on the forum may not consider it mountain biking. The owner(s) probably loves it because without threads with high traffic/(disputes), MTBR is a dying forum.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> The good news for you rude riders is that it wont have any effect on your trail none!


How about some data to support your dubious assertions?


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> On the other hand, nonmotorized trails should be a total no-go.
> -Walt


Why?

Because it has "a motor"?

therefore it is regulated the same as a 250lb gas powered motorcycle.

that makes no sense and is simply a recipe for future conflict.

Base accèss on impact, not misleading semantics.

250w Pedelecs should def be allowed places a KTM 525 cannot go.


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

uhoh7 said:


> Why?
> 
> Because it has "a motor"?
> 
> ...


Because there are established rules that say motorized vehicles aren't allowed on certain trails. Not agreeing with or liking the rules doesn't make them moot.

Also before someone jumps in saying MTBers break rules, it still doesn't validate breaking a different rule.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

formula4speed said:


> Because there are established rules that say motorized vehicles aren't allowed on certain trails. Not agreeing with or liking the rules doesn't make them moot.
> 
> Also before someone jumps in saying MTBers break rules, it still doesn't validate breaking a different rule.


I don't advocate people break rules. I advocate sensible rules and you end up with many less breaking them. I do find the love of rules around here really increases when it's the other guy who is supposed to adhere to them.

You have never injested a banned substance? You have never broken the speed limit? You report all your internet purchases to your state to pay the tax?

If you have a really stupid rule, like a 250w pedelec is the same thing as 450 Honda as far as restricted access to public lands, you just make a mess, I think.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> I don't advocate people break rules. I advocate sensible rules and you end up with many less breaking them.


What if your "sensible" rule doesn't agree with what others think is reasonable? Your mind seems closed to anything other than electric bikes having identical access rights as mountain bikes.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> What if your "sensible" rule doesn't agree with what others think is reasonable? Your mind seems closed to anything other than electric bikes having identical access rights as mountain bikes.


You are not reading my posts very closely, JB.

It's true I think the 250w pedelec by logic based on impact SHOULD by able to use the mtb trails.

But as is clear in my proposal for e-permits I would compromise and have some trails be mtb bike only. I think this ought to vary by local conditions. I don't know how it is in your home, so don't feel comfortable dictating what the rules should be there.

I've also been very clear I think the 250w pedelec is not the SAME as a mtb. Obviously it's a different thing. But it's much closer to the mtb than a 50hp Euduro motorcycle, which is how so many want to regulate it.

Really you and I basically agree. You don't want them on all trails but would be willing to try them on SOME. If you came and visited our trails, you would probably say, OK in Sun Valley, the 250w bikes can go on most


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> Really you and I basically agree.


We really don't. I think the potential impact of electric bikes is nothing the same as bicycles, and I'm not talking about trail erosion. I also think the permit idea is convoluted. I have absolutely no problems with electric bikes as long as they establish their own user group and lobby for their own access.


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## trevor1030 (May 24, 2016)

In my area class 1 and class 2 ebikes should be fine... Those are not throttle bikes and are indeed pedal assist they do not actually rev and are powered like a dirt bike. They do not ruin the terrain whatsoever. 

On the other hand the bikes that have a throttle and are over I think it is 28mph + are classified class 3 bikes and are illegal on most trails. But the class 1 and class 2 are under 25 mph and are pedal assist no throttle. Which I don't see an issue, you still have to pedal and you can not "burn out" or what not as a class 3 can with a throttle. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

trevor1030 said:


> In my area class 1 and class 2 ebikes should be fine... Those are not throttle bikes and are indeed pedal assist they do not actually rev and are powered like a dirt bike. They do not ruin the terrain whatsoever.
> 
> On the other hand the bikes that have a throttle and are over I think it is 28mph + are classified class 3 bikes and are illegal on most trails. But the class 1 and class 2 are under 25 mph and are pedal assist no throttle. Which I don't see an issue, you still have to pedal and you can not "burn out" or what not as a class 3 can with a throttle.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


But you cannot police that. If you read forums you will see a large culture of people who have fast e-bikes. Most of them look the same as a class 1 or 2.


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## trevor1030 (May 24, 2016)

Yes but, most of the bigger brands at least from what I have noticed like specialized, haibike etc they are only pedal assist mainly the homemade or generic cheaper brands tend to be throttle based. I know there is a new proposition that requires a specific sticker for which class of ebike. I know specialized would probably never make a mountain bike with a throttle on it, same with other big manufacturers, maybe a smaller business would. But as I said class 1 and 2 "pedal assist" bikes should be allowed on trails. But the class 3 or any ebike with a throttle shouldn't be allowed. But there is no reason to ban all ebikes because you can't tell if it has a throttle or not.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

trevor1030 said:


> I know specialized would probably never make a mountain bike with a throttle on it, same with other big manufacturers, maybe a smaller business would.


I don't understand why a pedal assist or throttle matters either way, it's amount of power delivered that matters.


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## trevor1030 (May 24, 2016)

Because pedal assist requires pedaling to get any type of assist or power. A throttle simples requires you to twist the throttle for power and you don't need to pedal. Some are different yes, but a pedal assist is technically giving you a little boost as in helping pull the chain depending on what mode and how the assist works. There is a huge difference. The assist will only kick in as the pressure you apply from the pedal from what I noticed. It's not a jolt of power it's more linear. As I said with a throttle bike you just hit the throttle and go. Completely different concept, I thought they were terrible and shouldn't be allowed until you demo one. My mind completely changed and I am not telling anyone to buy one just try it before you hate on it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

It was actually somewhat of a rhetorical question, I think I know why pedal assist matters. Pedals make it look like a bike, pedal assist sounds like not quite motorized, which makes it possible to (finally!) get motors in areas where they have previously been prohibited.

Pedal assist bikes are quite easy to hack as well, I talked to a guy yesterday that did it in about 5 minutes on his and he says he's in high gear at all times now.


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## trevor1030 (May 24, 2016)

Yea I mean I understand that, people doing that is pretty messed up, but in any type of "scene" people will try to do stuff like that. We hope they don't and leave it be but there will always be people who do that which sucks. Especially for people who are just riding their OEM pedal assist bike and who hopefully do not bother other bikers with their antics. But most pedal assist bikes will have settings, for example Eco (to save battery) a standard or basic function which is basic assist and then a high mode which isn't power that will be higher it will just react more often and be quicker to assist. This is just from what I have noticed after demo riding many of these bikes. But with that said I agree it will be hard to control but no reason the ban that community of ebikers because 9/10 times most will follow the rules and there will be that one guy who tries to ruin it for everyone!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

trevor1030 said:


> Because pedal assist requires pedaling to get any type of assist or power. A throttle simples requires you to twist the throttle for power and you don't need to pedal. Some are different yes, but a pedal assist is technically giving you a little boost as in helping pull the chain depending on what mode and how the assist works. There is a huge difference. The assist will only kick in as the pressure you apply from the pedal from what I noticed. It's not a jolt of power it's more linear. As I said with a throttle bike you just hit the throttle and go. Completely different concept, I thought they were terrible and shouldn't be allowed until you demo one. My mind completely changed and I am not telling anyone to buy one just try it before you hate on it.


So, if I pedal at 200w and it gives me a 2000w assist, that's cool?

That's damn near 3hp.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## trevor1030 (May 24, 2016)

No 2000w should not be permitted I'm not even sure of a bike that offers more the 280w on a pedal assist bike. Maybe a throttle bike will give you more power, but those should not be allowed period. With the way things are going there will be set guidelines for your class 1 and class 2 pedal assist bikes.


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## trevor1030 (May 24, 2016)

Here is a biased link to ebikes https://www.imba.com/news/eMTB-early-study-results


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

rlee said:


> But you cannot police that. If you read forums you will see a large culture of people who have fast e-bikes. Most of them look the same as a class 1 or 2.


A large culture of e bikes? lol were? fast e bikes ? ah you do understand the e bikes we are talking about allowing on the trails are the low power mid drives most wont go over 20 ?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

lol wut? Are you volunteering to police the trails to make sure people aren't running 3000W?

I didn't think so. 

-Walt


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

rider95 said:


> A large culture of e bikes? lol were? fast e bikes ? ah you do understand the e bikes we are talking about allowing on the trails are the low power mid drives most wont go over 20 ?


Yes I understand this completely. But a Equestrian can only see a mountain bike.
Look at the forum post's. A quick look brings up a lot of over 250watt bikes. Now most might be commuter bikes but the technology is there.
I really don't get a lot of the need for e-bikes. I mean I sold my moto and bought a bicycle. I don't see the need to try and bridge the gap on trails.
You can always ride your e-bike on the street. I see a lot of roadies and they look like they are having fun.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Its technology this effects are life in many diff ways now its come to MT biking the e bike has come from a DIY kit to main stream bike manufactures off the shelf e bikes . Like it or not there will be growth with a new group of buyers coming as more people discover e bikes relax its not gonna hurt anything .


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Its technology this effects are life in many diff ways now its come to MT biking the e bike has come from a DIY kit to main stream bike manufactures off the shelf e bikes . Like it or not there will be growth with a new group of buyers coming as more people discover e bikes relax its not gonna hurt anything .


You are the single most tone deaf individual on this board, congratulations.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

rider95 said:


> relax its not gonna hurt


That's what my dentist tells me...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

My advancing alcoholism is starting to affect my balance to the point where I fear I will soon require an e-quad to successfully traverse the trails I currently enjoy. Also I'm going to need a crew of strong backed youngsters to widen the trail to accommodate my new rig.


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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

Check it out bros. Got Myself a new E-bike. KOMs for days:


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> You are the single most tone deaf individual on this board, congratulations.


You mean he hasn't joined the lynch mob? 

JB: I advise you double your support crew, but employ women only 

The zero bikes and similar don't yet appeal to me because of range and weight. With a shorter range I prefer to use a pedelec 

When I see a 170lb ebike with motorcycle power and the ability to ride long range mountain single track, I will be very interested


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## Scott In MD (Sep 28, 2008)

I just got an eBike for commuting. Wow it's a lot of fun. I don't think I'd be interested in using one on the trail. My main impressions are that 1) eBikes will completely transform bicycle commuting and 2) eBikes could be dangerous for unskilled riders, especially on trails. My ride to yoga today in hot and hilly Arizona was a pleasure on the eBike. I would have driven the car if I didn't have the eBike, even though it's only 3.5 miles, because it's freaking 105F today. But I got up to 40 MPH pretty easily on the big hill. So, yeah, I tapped the brakes and slowed down. But I was grinning.

Oh, wait a sec, what is this post about? If you see someone breaking the rules in the park you should tell a park ranger.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> My advancing alcoholism is starting to affect my balance to the point where I fear I will soon require an e-quad to successfully traverse the trails I currently enjoy. Also I'm going to need a crew of strong backed youngsters to widen the trail to accommodate my new rig.


I'm in the same boat, but for me it's peyote. I'd really like the trail turned into more of a flat, open area without too many tripping hazards. Meaning, both for my feet and my brain.

No lizards! Multiuse can work, but when I'm out there I just end up with talking lizard parts all over my e-bike. Everyone wins if we just do alternate days or stick to different trails.

Thanks.

-Walt


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

uhoh7 said:


> Why?
> 
> Because it has "a motor"?


Ever read the law about motors on non-motorized trails?


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Rock Surf said:


> Check it out bros. Got Myself a new E-bike. KOMs for days:


That video is a good illustration of the limitations of non-pedal-assisted-electric-motorcycles.

Those guys spent how long on a section that is at most three seconds of hike-a-bike?

Those bikes were spent after a half hour of riding. Nothing like a 300 pound boat anchor on wheels when you have a few miles back to home. This is most likely why that company ceased production of the MX back in 2013.

That trail is ideal motorcycle terrain. Those bikes would be barely faster on most twisty, rocky, rooty, mtb trails, and unlike a bicycle couldn't be 'ridden for days'.


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