# Local Bike Shop goes out of business



## Mr5150 (Dec 20, 2011)

John said the major reason was internet shopping. And secondarily high rent.

Now consider this. John did right by his customers. He gave me breaks on price. Did good work. Example: charged semi discount for disc brakes, but no labor charge for installation. (I can do 90% of my own wrenching, but disc brakes are a mystery to me).

He was particularly annoyed by the people who would pump him for advice then order stuff online.

To all of those who showroom bikes and parts at your LBS, thank you for destroying a part of our sport. Don't whine when there is no local guy for advice. Or someone to true your wheels, rebuild your fork/shock. Newbies can't do stuff locally. Online??? Joke for them. No newbies. No future for the sport.

Lucky for me we do have one other shop in town. For now.


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## laherna (Jun 14, 2009)

Welcome to 2015. My LBS is a brick and mortar shop and does on line sales.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

I wish I could showroom bikes and parts at any of the lbs.


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

Adapt or die.


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## BikeIntelligencer (Jun 5, 2009)

Key OP line: High rent. Any business that shuts down and blames the Internet is oversimplifying. There's a ton of other pressures on LBSes, it's war out there. Agree, hate to see a fave shop go under tho...


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

It seems like mountain biking is experiencing some sort of consumer frenzy singularity. I love to buy parts from my LBS, and do so when I can. But 75% of the time the tires or component I want is out of stock on BTI or QBP, whereas online retailers can get it to you free shipping in two days. Not even an issue of cost. Supply is not meeting demand.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

My LBS just purchased an adjoining space and is spending tens of thousands to restructure and incorporate the area as the new showroom, doubling their storefront area in year 3. Located on a corner lot on the main drag.

You can't just be a good bike shop, you have to be a good business. There are thousands of riders that want to open their own bike shop every year, but how many of them know how to run a business?


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## J-Bone (Aug 26, 2008)

well, when online prices are 20-50% less can there be blame for going online? I like a small business as much as any body 

but at what point does the consumer start to save money?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

yzedf said:


> Adapt or die.


 Remember you said this when your job gets offshored or your industry dies or business you are employed at gets lowballed by internet sales. Everyone wants it at the lowest possible price no matter the implications it has for local communities.


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## Spec44 (Aug 17, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Remember you said this when your job gets offshored or your industry dies or business you are employed at gets lowballed by internet sales. Everyone wants it at the lowest possible price no matter the implications it has for local communities.


You act like the guy is cussing someone. It is a fact for retailers in these times of internet shopping...you must adapt or you could very well go out of business.

What is the answer? I don't know. I try to buy local, and am lucky to have 5 LBS in the adjacent city. I don't typically shop price even. But, I do catch myself frequently hitting the "add to cart" button while doing research because it's 8pm and convenient online, instead of waiting until Friday when I can go into town and hit several shops hoping they have what I want.

Which brings up one factor for the smaller stores...inventory. There's a small shop that doesn't carry the best lines of bikes, and they aren't that great at service, but to top it off they have almost no inventory of "premium" components. Why not stock a couple nice QR seat clamps or a couple carbon bars? Too much choice? Too much markup?


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

Agreed, especially when all I need is the part, no advice or labor. Why would I buy it from the LBS, that has to order it, and pay more?


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## mudmullet (Dec 27, 2014)

Lol, mopatodd, so that when you need advice or labor you have a place to go.


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## mjydrafter (Aug 20, 2014)

I hate to hear of a LBS going out, but I have a case in point.

I called around yesterday to 3 of the big LBS's in my area looking for some Judy butter or Slick honey. I got the same answer at each of them, "nope, but I can order it..."

Now, my story has a happy ending (not that kind). I also have an internet LBS that is local. I really like them as you can look up parts on their site and it tells you if they have it in stock at the store. 

They have a pretty unimpressive showroom, but they always have what I need (since I look it up before going). I have even ordered on-line when the part is not in stock at their store and it shows up pretty fast. Anyway, they had a tub of Slick honey and got my business.

I have had this same problem with other parts, that IMHO every LBS should carry. Like Judy butter, or an 1 1/8 HS...

Motorcycle shops are the same way, I hear that all the time, "No, but I can order it..." Well so can I, and it won't involve 2 trips to the store, and dealing with some surly know-it-all counter monkey. (no offense to any counter monkeys out there, there are good ones.) 

Back to the 1 1/8 HS, one LBS had one that sent me out without the crown race, and I had to make a trip across town to get it fixed up. To their credit, they gave me an upgraded one, because they didn't have the one that should have been in the box.


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## Rogueldr (Jul 30, 2007)

I'm like most on here. I'll always go to my LBS 1st. But when they tell me they don't have what I need but they can order it, my 1st thought is "so can I and I won't have to make a 2nd trip to the shop."


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

mjydrafter said:


> ............
> 
> I called around yesterday to 3 of the big LBS's in my area looking for some Judy butter or Slick honey. I got the same answer at each of them, "nope, but I can order it..."...............


Same thing happened to me when looking for Slick Honey a couple years back. No one had any in stock or none even carried it. Only one lbs did and they were 45min away. I did drive to get it as needed it. Need a headset, "No, don't carry any, but we can order it". Need a headset spacer larger than 1/4, "No, no one needs anything larger". Bottle of Stan's larger than 16oz, "No, but we can order it". Need housing ferrules, "No, don't have anymore". And that was the last straw for me for any of the lbs. If they don't even have the basics in stock, why am I going to shop there for?
If I could get all my basic small parts at the lbs, even if it costs more, hell yeah I'm going to buy it from them.


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> Remember you said this when your job gets offshored or your industry dies or business you are employed at gets lowballed by internet sales. Everyone wants it at the lowest possible price no matter the implications it has for local communities.


I'm a car mechanic specializing in European makes. I'm more than aware of cost vs benefit. "Save the LBS" is a tired tune, I've heard it since the early mail order catalog days. The shops that have adapted have done quite well, just look at the local chains in any popular cycling area. 2 or 3 locations, usually have decent stuff in stock, usually have 2-4 employees in at all times, usually blow out old or outdated inventory online. Like I said, adapt or die.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I decided I was willing to pay a bit of a markup to buy some wheels locally. I already had an online seller in mind, but I clicked around a bit and made a call and found that one of my local shops is trying to compete online, and had about the same price for complete wheels. So I was able to spend my money locally without having to make a sacrifice. Actually, I'm pleased that I'll be going to a local shop for service.

The shop I usually go to is typically very fast. I can drop my bike after riding on Sunday afternoon and pick it up before going riding the following Saturday. Usually sooner, though I have a different bike I ride during lunch.

I think what the internet is really killing is mid-range retail. At the low end, shipping often eats up any savings. At the high end, I think sales are more driven by shops' ability to take care of customers from end to end. But people who want nicer stuff and are willing to put in some time on research and maybe installation don't need much from a shop that the Internet can't do faster and cheaper.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Part of any retail business nowadays is having an online business attached. Anyone who doesn't jump on this band wagon is just slicing their own throat.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Relevant:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Work

And

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/should-we-fear-the-end-of-work/

Economists are increasingly agreeing that, at the current pace, soon there will be almost no jobs at all. Autonomy and technology is going to eliminate millions of jobs in retail, logistics, manufacturing and services.

The LBS is a direct microcosm of that. As stated above, small business owners struggle to keep the diversity of inventory that larger online retailers can keep, and can't compete on price at a small scale and still make a profit. What are we to do?

Well, short term its probably the franchise or consortium model: by pooling the capital resources of multiple shops together, the buying power increases and the individual owner takes on a little less risk. Marketing and logistics is more efficient and the larger scale, and the sales can be a combination of in store and online, with online profits shared across the consortium (since foot traffic / showrooming contributes to online sales).

But long term this problem is not going away: making, selling, distributing and installing things will require fewer and fewer humans, there is no way around it.


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## J-Bone (Aug 26, 2008)

I went to my local shop to ask about XT cranks. after a few minutes of conversation I asked what they charge for them with a triple chain ring......He says...

"You'll have to look it up-it'll be what ever msrp is..." Really? I took that as him not doing a simple task that might be detailed in his job description. Lost a sale and a customer.


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## mjydrafter (Aug 20, 2014)

Good post Procter. Interesting links.

One of our LB Shops went out last fall. My wife and I were on our way some where and decided to stop in a couple of months before they went out of business. I will preface by saying, it was near closing time, and the guy was helping someone with a service issue. 

We walked about looked at a few bikes and a number of accessories, I think we even looked at his bike that was in the shop. He didn't even say hello, or I'll be with you in a minute... nothing.

We left kind of scratching our heads.

Now, in hindsight he may have known he was going out of business and just didn't care, but it was a weird experience. It didn't surprise me to see the GOB banner when he put it up a bit later.

I also question a bike shop that offers service that doesn't have any service parts. How do they service their customers bikes? Maybe they don't want to sell me what they may (or may not) use to service their customers bikes. Bike shops have always been pretty weird.


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## cardnation (Jul 2, 2014)

Flamingtaco said:


> My LBS just purchased an adjoining space and is spending tens of thousands to restructure and incorporate the area as the new showroom, doubling their storefront area in year 3. Located on a corner lot on the main drag.
> 
> You can't just be a good bike shop, you have to be a good business. There are thousands of riders that want to open their own bike shop every year, but how many of them know how to run a business?


Haha, this is the exact scenario of a shop here in Louisville.

Any chance you are in KY as well?


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Buying components at an LBS really makes no sense. Who wants to pay double for a part?


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

tiretracks said:


> Remember you said this when your job gets offshored or your industry dies or business you are employed at gets lowballed by internet sales. Everyone wants it at the lowest possible price no matter the implications it has for local communities.


You must still be riding a horse out of concern that blacksmiths will go out of business. And I am sure you still use the yellow pages instead of the internet. Businesses must adapt, your whole argument is ridiculous. Maybe we should all use vcrs so VCR tape manufacturers don't lose their jobs.


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## Mr5150 (Dec 20, 2011)

Rogueldr said:


> I'm like most on here. I'll always go to my LBS 1st.* But when they tell me they don't have what I need but they can order it, my 1st thought is "so can I* and I won't have to make a 2nd trip to the shop."





mjydrafter said:


> I hate to hear of a LBS going out, but I have a case in point.
> 
> I called around yesterday to 3 of the big LBS's in my area looking for some Judy butter or Slick honey. *I got the same answer at each of them, "nope, but I can order it..."*
> 
> .


My gripe also. But John usually had what I needed. Six months ago, I rebuilt my daughter's Gary Fisher HT. John had every part I needed, including Avid 7 side pull brakes! Yea, I went online to see how much "extra" I paid-about $90 on a $500 purchase, including shipping.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

ljsmith said:


> You must still be riding a horse out of concern that blacksmiths will go out of business. And I am sure you still use the yellow pages instead of the internet. Businesses must adapt, your whole argument is ridiculous. Maybe we should all use vcrs so VCR tape manufacturers don't lose their jobs.


And your whole argument is coherent and relevant?

LBS: You are a VCR tape manufacturer.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

MikeDee said:


> Buying components at an LBS really makes no sense. Who wants to pay double for a part?


So then you believe that everything should be purchased online because it's cheaper?

No more retail businesses of any kind?
No more transactions between people?
No more one on one service from another human being?
No more leaving the comfort of your worn out old easy chair at home?


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Hawg said:


> No more leaving the comfort of your worn out old easy chair at home?


Don't worry, you can order a new one cheap on-line.


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## ltspd1 (Nov 25, 2007)

I've usually divided my purchases between online and the numerous lbs in town. However, I recently bought a high-end bike from a very small, funky shop (Timberline Cycles, CO Springs), the owner of which treats me like a rock star every time I stop by. He spent a great deal of time insuring I got exactly the bike I wanted, not what he thought I should buy or what he just happened to have on the floor and needed to get rid of, and he now spends a tremendous amount of time answering my questions and helping me tweak my set up. Contrast this to other shops in town where I've bought expensive bikes, all of which don't seem to remember me only a few months after my purchases. As a result I intend to buy most of what I need through Mike even though it will cost me more. I'd really hate to see this exceptional shop go away.


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## Whacked (Sep 29, 2008)

Tomorrow is that last day a LBS will be open.
That store has been around for around 30 years.
Before internet, it was the go-to store in the area

lately, have not been impressed, enough to drive further to a different store

Last summer I went window shopping for a new 29er (had a bike in for warranty and was thinking of switching up). Sales kept pushing 27.5 on me. Was not and still not interested in 27.5 and told him. sales guy kept saying the same thing over and over, 26 is dead, 29 is dying, 27.5 is now and the future. not buying that line so I left.

Told a co-worker about it, and he was very interested in 27.5
His shop experience, he looked around for about 20 min, sales guy and mechanic just stood around a bike on a stand with tools in hand trying to look like they are working. totally ignored him.

so, not surprised they are shutting the doors.


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## TBarnaby (Aug 1, 2008)

It's a shame that they went OOB, but supply and demand will rule in business.

I had a couple of LBS experiences a few years ago, very different from each other. 

1. Went in to buy a couple of Salsa Casserolls for my wife and I. We were sized and order appropriate bikes for us. That night I saw I could get the previous years model(no spec changes) for about 10% less. I went in and asked them if there was any wiggle room due to that. I had already paid for 1/2 of the purchase and told him I was committed to purchasing through them so they weren't going to lose this sale regardless. He initially said no, but called me that night and said he would drop the 10%. He didn't have to but I feel like he wanted to really earn my business. Two years later he went out of business.

The next year I went to buy an Intense Uzzi from another local shop, whom I've bought 5 bikes through them over the years. We worked up a price of $5400+tax. I told him I could get that build for $4800 online shipped to my door. I then asked him to meet me in the middle since he had to order nearly everything for the bike($5100+tax). I was told that I should order it online, no counter offer was made. They are still in business but I would never buy anything from them again.

So regardless of how they treat you or what they provide it's still a bit of a mystery why or how some these shops either stay open or close. Some of it is likely internet sales, some is staff performance, ultimately it all comes down to the management of the business and owners pockets.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Zowie said:


> And your whole argument is coherent and relevant?
> 
> LBS: You are a VCR tape manufacturer.


Sorry man, I gotta agree with ljsmith here. The death of the VCR, and the death of the LBS, are similar phenomenon tied to the same root cause: technological innovation is eliminating jobs.

First vcrs were replaced by DVDs, now but digital delivery. Each step eliminated jobs.

DVDs are cheaper to manufacturer than video tapes because they have less moving parts. There is no assembly step, and thus the factory that makes DVDs requires fewer humans to run it. They are cheaper to ship, taking up less space and less weight, so it takes less humans (less trucks, less ships) to get them from the Chinese factory to your door.

And of course, it goes without saying that getting movies on demand over your Internet and cable connection requires even fewer humans.


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## HitmenOnlyInc (Jul 20, 2012)

I too am tired of the "no, but we can order it" LBS. That should be the name of some shops. 

I would love to make all my bike related purchases from LBS but it seems like a lot of the shops I've been in try and charge a premium for the parts they do have in stock. I b!tched last year about trying to buy some Ice Tech rotors from a LBS only to be disgusted by the prices they were charging. Yes, they did have them in stock but wanted $69 each regardless of size. 

IME the best shops with the best selection are the ones closest to or in popular riding areas. For obvious reasons, I know...more traffic, "need it now"...


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## 7daysaweek (May 7, 2008)

the-one1 said:


> I wish I could showroom bikes and parts at any of the lbs.


+1. Carry some parts for crying out loud. It's annoying hearing people complain about people ordering parts online when bike shops won't carry inventory. I get that it's not free to buy parts and keep them in stock but if I can have a part for 1/2 price delivered to my door or I can drive to the shop, order it, pay full price, and have to go back to pick it up later it'd be stupid not to order online. I buy tires, tools, lube, and a few other parts when I need them and the LBS has them in stock. But if I've got to wait for the part anyway, it's all going to come down to price and an LBS almost never wins in that situation.

Also, in several places I've lived I've noticed that shops around aren't very friendly. That doesn't really help either.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Procter said:


> Sorry man, I gotta agree with ljsmith here. The death of the VCR, and the death of the LBS, are similar phenomenon tied to the same root cause: technological innovation is eliminating jobs.
> 
> First vcrs were replaced by DVDs, now but digital delivery. Each step eliminated jobs.
> 
> ...


If you change the frame of reference it works.

When are virtual bikes coming via digital delivery?


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## 7daysaweek (May 7, 2008)

Hawg said:


> No more transactions between people?
> No more one on one service from another human being?


You can always talk to the UPS guy when he brings the part to your house.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

I understand not carrying high end bikes on the floor or super high end parts. But when they don't even have mountain bike tires (other than XC tires or wire bead tires), it frustrates me to no end. If I find a tire online for say $50 and IF by chance an lbs had the same or similar for $70, I'd buy it from the LBS, but the LBS are not even trying it seems. :/
BTW, the LBS I'm talking about are in MN. Really poor inventory, all of them


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Zowie said:


> If you change the frame of reference it works.
> 
> When are virtual bikes coming via digital delivery?


I get your point, bikes aren't coming virtually. But technology will continue to allow more bikes to be distributed by fewer humans.

Let's go back: Before the internet there were two ways to get bikes & parts:

Walk into a store
Order from a warehouse / catalog like Nashbar, 800-bike-pro, etc.

The warehouse/catalog companies had a leg up on the LBS because it is cheaper to store and process inventory, for two reasons:
1) Warehouse rents are lower than retail, per sq foot
2) The warehouse keeps larger bins of the same parts together on a shelf, where as, getting them to an LBS requires breaking them into smaller buckets of parts, shipping them the last mile, unpacking them, placing them on the LBS shelf - that's more human labor.

So why wasn't the warehouse/catalog model obsoleting the LBS in those days? Well, Sales and Marketing for those catalog/phone order companies was not significantly cheaper than the LBS, and, the labor for the customer to buy the parts was not as easy as it was on the internet, so the warehouse advantage isn't that great: 
1) Orders had to be taken by phone, by a human
2) Marketing involved printing and shipping catalogs, and paying for print advertising in magazines like MBA. Shipping catalogs is low ROI because targeting is hard. 
3) For the customer, it took about as much labor to call and order a part as it did to stop by the LBS and buy it.

Ok, so, Internet changes all that, right?
1) The cost of marketing decreases significantly: Reach more consumers, target them better, for fewer dollars. Also, consumers can make more effective buying decisions without consulting an LBS expert, thanks to sites like this, and descriptive product catalog information on ecommerce sites.
2) Cost of sales (taking the order) decreases significantly: No human involved
3) Easier for the customer: Instead of calling and going through this long process of giving shipping address, credit card, etc., order with a few clicks.

So this shifted the advantage to the warehouse based business, eliminating jobs.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

^^Not doubting your premise that technology eliminates jobs, but rather the premise that the services a good LBS perform amount to a commodity that can come in a box.

Is the FedEx guy going to chase and face that frame for you? UPS going to assemble your new bike for an extra surcharge? 

If so, my argument is null and void.


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## HitmenOnlyInc (Jul 20, 2012)

I think there are a great many folks who need bike shops, but not a lot who are discussing here. There may always be a need for servicing the cruisers, comfort bikes, campus crawlers and bmx'ers. Those folks may not care that parts need to be ordered and are glad to not have to hassle with DYI.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Lately, I've been taking care of less and less of the maintenance on my fast bikes myself. It's hard enough to carve out time to ride. I can browse the 'net from anywhere I have a smart phone, but when my bike and I are in the same place at the same time, I'd rather be riding. Paying the shop to work on it means it's getting maintained while I'm at work or commuting or hanging out with my wife, not just sitting in my garage.


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## Geralt (Jul 11, 2012)

I try to support the local shops when I can, but I've left a bike shop a few times feeling more like I made a donation to a charity rather than made a purchase.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Zowie said:


> ^^Not doubting your premise that technology eliminates jobs, but rather the premise that the services a good LBS perform amount to a commodity that can come in a box.
> 
> Is the FedEx guy going to chase and face that frame for you? UPS going to assemble your new bike for an extra surcharge?
> 
> If so, my argument is null and void.


Tighter manufacturing tolerances will eliminate the need for chase and face . Online tutorials are already allowing a much higher proportion of buyers to assemble their own bike.

But I get your point, there will always be things that cannot be done over mail order.

The market will find an eventual medium on this. Many LBS will close, until there are just enough LBS open to handle the continuing demand for service coupled with a decreased demand for parts and bikes. We may see the rise of service kiosks and mobile bike service, driven by customers reaching the limit of how far they are willing to travel as LBS's close. As I said above, I think one thing that will help is LBS franchising or consortiums/co-ops of owners, which will pool capital, allowing economies of scale for logistics / distribution and funding an online presence, and allow LBS's to recoup and share in the online profits initiated through showrooming.

Don't get me wrong, I also regret the death of the LBS and I try to support mine. But the general macroeconomic trend is really unavoidable in the long term.


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## Mr5150 (Dec 20, 2011)

HitmenOnlyInc said:


> I think there are a great many folks who need bike shops, but not a lot who are discussing here. There may always be a need for servicing the cruisers, comfort bikes, campus crawlers and bmx'ers. Those folks may not care that parts need to be ordered and are glad to not have to hassle with DYI.


Question: When you started out as a new mtn biker, did you have a need for a bike shop? I sure did. Where are the new mtn bikers going to come from? In the future will one have to take a course in bicycle repair in order to be a mtn biker? And some people are just not mechanically inclined.

It wasn't until I was in the sport for about four years that I was able do my own stuff.

My concern is that not everyone can have easy access to some big chain store. I live in a small town area. It would be a real pain to drive 60 miles to the nearest city, twice, to have my fork serviced or wheel repaired after a crash. (I don't service forks or repair wheels often enough to be any good at it.)

Will our sport only be for the mechanically elite?


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## HitmenOnlyInc (Jul 20, 2012)

Mr5150 said:


> Question: When you started out as a new mtn biker, did you have a need for a bike shop? I sure did. Where are the new mtn bikers going to come from? In the future will one have to take a course in bicycle repair in order to be a mtn biker? And some people are just not mechanically inclined.
> 
> It wasn't until I was in the sport for about four years that I was able do my own stuff.


Of course I did, there wasn't anyplace else to buy a bike.

But I can say this, where are people's sense of wanting to figure out how stuff works. I started taking apart and upgrading the very first bike I had.

New mountain bikers come from everywhere. There's kids out there now watching RedBull Rampage daydreaming of doing the same. BMX'ers that grow up...

I'm all for the LBS. I love shooting the sh!t with guys at the shop but I also look for a good value when it comes to my bikes. After all cycling is just a hobby.

I also think it's great that places like REI offer basic maintenance classes for free so people can learn about what makes their bike tick.


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## Mr5150 (Dec 20, 2011)

HitmenOnlyInc said:


> Of course I did, there wasn't anyplace else to buy a bike.
> 
> But I can say this, where are people's sense of wanting to figure out how stuff works. I started taking apart and upgrading the very first bike I had.
> 
> ...


Yea. True. However the nearest REI is a two hour drive from my house.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

No online business, or corporate bike shop, would sponsor any of my teams.

They didn't repair the bikes at the oddest of times.

They didn't donate product for raffles or even give bro' deals.

They didn't come out onto the trail with a part when we were stranded.

They don't step up to advertise our events or offer their barn for meetings or festivities.

They do nothing to help the community. They just harvest.

Many mountain bikers don't seem to have any need for community and see no further than their ride or their handful of riding buds. Just look at how few step up for advocacy or trail building. Some believe that they already know what they need to know about bikes or can figure it out for themselves. So, yeah, online works fine for them.

The rest of us, though, appreciate what an LBS _can_ do for us. Perhaps more importantly, we shape the things that an LBS can do for us so that it works both ways. We build relationships with them.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

In the electronic world, there is no reality to reach out and touch. You stay strapped into your seat with an I.V. in your arm for supplements & nutrition. Your body sleeps for all eternity. Your mind lives on and on. Your bike races aren't real. It's just a dream that you think it's real but you are actually asleep. Forever. You can dream that your sponsors are there and involved if you choose. 

Welcome to your future. Like brains in a fish bowl...


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## 1trakryder (Apr 21, 2010)

The LBS is a lost cause for so many reasons that have been well illustrated by the posts already here. We can lament the digital age we live in (as we type on our computers) til we're blue in the face; it's not changing. Businesses of all types are feeling the pinch of the digital age and the fact is we're talking about corporate survival of the fittest. I will always take time to try and find the shops in my area and always try and give them business where I can; I believe that's the sentiment that is being expressed most often in these posts so i'm not alone. In the end though I believe that in an effort to become more self sufficient and a lot more aware of my finances, my hard earned money will be spent more and more with the online retailers and the wrenching will be done more and more in my basement shop. Met some really nice guys in the LBS and some serious d-bags too. I won't be happy to see the small shops go but i'll probably be a far more knowledgeable cyclist without them.


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## 80Pro-Line (Dec 3, 2014)

I just take my bikes around back of Walmart and get those guys to service them. Everybody has access to Walmart. See the new forks they installed last week?


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

We have maybe 5-6 LBS's in my town. Some suck. Some are awesome. 

I am extremely loyal to the one, and they've turned into friends of mine. They do so much for the cycling community, their prices are fair (sometimes I yell at them for being "too" cheap to me, especially fatbike tires), and their service on my bike is fantastic. QBP orders show up faster than if I would order online. I love seeing their pit bull run put from behind the counter to greet me happily. 

I cannot replicate that experience with an online vendor. The only time I go online is if the LBS can't get me something. 

The good LBS's will survive. I think the internet just weeds out the shitty stores. 

I never understood the "online pricing is better" thing unless you count those sites that sell last model year stuff and OEM takeoffs. I am super happy with the MSRP-10% I usually pay due to belonging to the local MTB club. 

But seriously, those of you that "showroom" an LBS and then buy online? **** you. The mere fact that you have to showroom proves why pure online will not work. 

I do recognize that having a lot of shops within a 20-30 minute drive probably ensures the quality of them, due to competition. I don't have the experience some of you have where I have one shop in my town and it's ran by a snobby retrogrouch roadie. If that was my only choice, I'd likely go online too.


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## tomparker (Mar 1, 2013)

7daysaweek said:


> You can always talk to the UPS guy when he brings the part to your house.


One of our local UPS guys (gal really) also happens to work at the LBS, so this could work!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Mr5150 said:


> John said the major reason was internet shopping. And secondarily high rent.


But mostly it was his failure to change and adapt, the required "constant" in business.

Someone will ALWAYS come along and figure out how to do what you do cheaper, faster, easier, more efficiently, with more value, etc.

The challenge is finding new markets, new products, ways to compete, etc.

That means putting on shop-rides regularly, getting involved with trails and having work days, putting out resources for local riders, going clinics at schools with bikes and bike repair, sponsoring grassroots (or bigger) races and events, having a BBQ at the shop, trail advocacy, getting a pump track built, helping with a high school team, getting a website (that offers helpful resources), maybe putting the stock on hand on that website, having rewards programs, and on and on and on. The list is only limited by imagination and one can come up with multitudes of areas where online retailers will never be able to compete. The business world is unforgiving and unless you own some sort of intellectual property that can never be replicated, you have to constantly change and evolve, otherwise, someone will eventually come along that can do what you do better and you don't want to be trying to react well after the fact.


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## BikeIntelligencer (Jun 5, 2009)

If you look at what IS holding value in today's biz climate, it's intellectual property. Or, for an LBS, bike smarts. I pay as much for getting the right info, service and product as for the sale itself. The shops I go back to are the ones who know what they're doing. 

Two things tho for LBSes to consider. I think they shd sell memberships or award preferred customer status to volume shoppers. The Bennie: you can get immediate service walking right in the door. My 2 fave LBSes already do this because they know me. They do minor stuff for free. They turn around my orders asap. I can pick their brains. So guess what, I buy from them rather than online. The other issue is which master they serve, their suppliers n the Big Boys, or their customers. I went to one shop (while traveling) to get XT pads. All they had were the finned Shimano ones, which cost double the regular or third party brand. If they were out to help the customer rather than Shimano, they'd stock the cheap pads (which perform just as well btw). Same with tires. Dang I want other tires than Specialized! Yet so many LBSes want Specialized's money more than mine. Anyway you get my points...


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## ltspd1 (Nov 25, 2007)

BikeIntelligencer said:


> ...or award preferred customer status to volume shoppers.


To me this is key. For years my favorite shop was a place I'd bought two $5k bikes from, as well as several pairs of shoes, helmets, clothes, parts, etc. Last year I went in interested in buying a set of Stans Crests and a set of XT brakes...for me a considerable chunk of change. I asked their price, they gave me the standard mfg price, I reminded them I'd bought two bikes from them, and the guy just shrugged and repeated the same price. I've never bought anything from them since. If the guy had thrown me a bone and reduced the price even by just a little, I would have felt good about the place and they'd still have a loyal customer. Seems short sighted to me.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

ltspd1 said:


> To me this is key. For years my favorite shop was a place I'd bought two $5k bikes from, as well as several pairs of shoes, helmets, clothes, parts, etc. Last year I went in interested in buying a set of Stans Crests and a set of XT brakes...for me a considerable chunk of change. I asked their price, they gave me the standard mfg price, I reminded them I'd bought two bikes from them, and the guy just shrugged and repeated the same price. I've never bought anything from them since. If the guy had thrown me a bone and reduced the price even by just a little, I would have felt good about the place and they'd still have a loyal customer. Seems short sighted to me.


Exactly what my LBS experiences have been.

Plus a limited inventory on things (None of the three LBS within 30 minutes of me had XTR brakes, KS LEV or Carbon rims available). Typically a minimum of 1 week to get the goodies I desire in. And their pricing is typically 30-40% more then if I order it online.

At the end of the day, as long as I do my research it is easy to get the correct parts. I can honestly say I have never ordered the wrong part. As far as assembly - well its just a bicycle - aint exactly rocket science.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

Adding an internet component to an existing business is no small undertaking. Building and maintaining an e-commerce website, staffing to handle orders, adding to inventory so you can fulfill orders in a timely fashion, all take up front money. I understand the reality of adapt or die, but tossing out that they should just add internet sales like that's no big deal doesn't make sense.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Ladmo said:


> Adding an internet component to an existing business is no small undertaking. Building and maintaining an e-commerce website, staffing to handle orders, adding to inventory so you can fulfill orders in a timely fashion, all take up front money. I understand the reality of adapt or die, but tossing out that they should just add internet sales like that's no big deal doesn't make sense.


I know people that have done it as one-man operations on the side, but yes, it takes work. That's kind of the underlying theme, business is hard and IMO destined to eventually fail if you are on "cruise control", as someone will come along and "do it better". Even QBP and BTI have sales from time to time and blow out nice things for relatively inexpensive amounts, which could "decorate" the shop and possibly move fast, but it all takes work and time, possibly more than a business owner is willing to make. It's no small undertaking IMO. Hopefully, if one were to get enough of these things going at once, they would be somewhat self-sustaining after a while, but I'd say you can never "let your guard down". As someone said above, there has to be some intrinsic value above and beyond just the parts and floor space.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

BikeIntelligencer said:


> If you look at what IS holding value in today's biz climate, it's intellectual property. Or, for an LBS, bike smarts. I pay as much for getting the right info, service and product as for the sale itself. The shops I go back to are the ones who know what they're doing.
> 
> Two things tho for LBSes to consider. I think they shd sell memberships or award preferred customer status to volume shoppers. The Bennie: you can get immediate service walking right in the door. My 2 fave LBSes already do this because they know me. They do minor stuff for free. They turn around my orders asap. I can pick their brains. So guess what, I buy from them rather than online. The other issue is which master they serve, their suppliers n the Big Boys, or their customers. I went to one shop (while traveling) to get XT pads. All they had were the finned Shimano ones, which cost double the regular or third party brand. If they were out to help the customer rather than Shimano, they'd stock the cheap pads (which perform just as well btw). Same with tires. Dang I want other tires than Specialized! Yet so many LBSes want Specialized's money more than mine. Anyway you get my points...


that is a great point about "who they serve". Bike industry and many LBS have been for many years too closely joined. But at the same time the LBS, especially smaller size, can be a tough spot with rehired purchases. I don't what the arrangements are but like anything in that kind of business, i would expect if you want to carry trek or Specialized it comes with a minimum requirement to purchase other of their branded components or apparel, a total drain on an LBS these days. back in the day they probably made huge markup on that crap but online retailing has totally rushed that. This is an interesting point, shop can be in between rock and hard place.

The membership is an interesting idea for service, too. A shop like Performance, I don't know who owns them but to me they really missed their opportunity here and in a lot of other ways. Instead they offer a membership that just copies discount approach from other retailers. When they stuff they have is marginal to begin with and the employees are highly variable in knowledge, with a good chunk just trying hard sale tactics.

JensonUSA, Chain Reaction, and shops that are managed well in markets that have enough demand are probably the future. Combined with the ideas you have like volume stuff and priority service. I love working on my bike but there are times I'd pay to have it done, like when it is too cold in my garage or I don't have the time. I'd pay for that priority but ONLY if they do it right. In my area the LBSis low end high volume and have cut their shop service way back. The work quality suffers. there is one shop that caters to racers and has fantastic wrenches, but then they have such a snon-service type attitude, if you aint dropping 6k a year or two on a race bike, you just go back to the end of the line and then they will insult you about what is wrong with you and your bike. if you ask them questions they treat it like accusations or doubting their god-like status.

I often come across on this site as anit-LBS, but I am not. I used to go to the LBS regularly just to window shop and chat, but I find the experience with the shops where I live now so poor that I don';t ever want to go inside.

Back in san Diego i remember a shop called Beyond Bikes that was probably not managed very well behind the scenes, but even with that challenges place they had a rack of Truner demos that they'd blow out every year and an inviting vibe inside. They were primarily online business that had nice store, a grey mechanic, at least at the time I had a custom wheel build. But other management issues lead to their demise.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I feel like any LBS that actually engages in the community will have a leg-up on the competition. I deeply appreciate that some of the shops here have Demo days, or come out (even if not officially) in support of local rider-sponsored things like trailwork days and trail-BBQs. 
That makes me want to support them in return. They get my business, even when it's not the lowest price. 

The thing is- like pretty much every 3rd poster has said, when I need parts and I go to a LBS, I want them in my hands that day. I'm not even talking about big parts, I'm talking expendables.

I need a chain? I want to go to an LBS; Oh, they only have the cheap 8sp Shimano chain, or a $60 XTR chain. ....just, no...
Can you seriously not stock a $25-30 10sp chain? Oh, they can order it?....Yeah, so can I. 

I needed new grips: My LBS had one pair of Renthal lock-ons, one pair of ODI Ruffians (not even Rogues- I would have bought those), one pair of Lime Green ESI chunkys....
and like 30 pair of flanged BMX grips. The store doesn't even sell BMX bikes. :madman:

When I switched to 1x10 I kinda wanted to tweak my chainline inboard just a smidge, so I called the LBS: 
"You guys have chainring spacers?"
"we do....I think...lemme look"
"ok"
"Yep, I got a bunch of sizes here."
"Awesome, I need 4 of 'em, probably 3mm's"
"Hmm...I have 1mm, 2 mmm and 5mm. I can get you 4 2mm's and 4 1mm's and you can pair em up"
"That'll work! Oh, BTW, how much are they?"
"A few bucks each'
"...So....for for the 8 spacers, what are we looking at?"
"Well, they're $3 apiece, but I can cut you a break since we have to stack them up. I can do $20 for the 8 spacers, plus a little tax."
"....I'll get back to you. That seems pretty spendy for some thick washers"
Now, I appreciate that he's trying to earn my business with the discount, but cmon...I can go to eBay and get five 3mm spacers for like $6, to my door. 
In the end, I just left my chain line alone.


Don't even get my started on finding tires at an LBS.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

The chain thing is pretty far out.

I mean seriously - seems like a no-brainer to me to stock a run from the 850 through the 1050. (Or Shimano equivalent.) I really expect to be able to find chains, brake pads and cassettes. Less common than that and I'm not so shocked if they don't have them. But perishables are also supposed to be pretty profitable - not expensive enough to make people stress about price, so you can sell 'em for MSRP, nobody cares about model year, everybody needs them.

A lot of you guys' bad LBS experiences, though, I can't say I've experienced. I think it says as much about what people in my region are buying as anything, though.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Procter said:


> . Each step eliminated jobs.


I wonder how many jobs are actually 'eliminated' as compared to many are shifted around. Less business for brick and mortar stores means more business for delivery services. More factory automation means more high tech jobs designing, installing, running and maintained this equipment. More use of computer technology means more jobs across many aspects of that field. And so on. These jobs would also tend to be higher paying than many of the jobs they replace, I'd figure.

That's kind of how it worked for me. At one point in my life, I was paid very little to manually pull stock from warehouse shelves. Later, I got paid very well designing Automated Material Handling Systems. Adapt or die, as they say.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

I think there will always be a need for LBS, I can't count the number of times somebody comes in while I am in there goofing around, just to get a tire fixed. You know those people are not doing any ohter maintenance on their own bikes. The biggest bike shop in my city has about 5 stalls that are always full of bikes being worked on. 

I will buy brake pads or some tools just because I don't always want to wait to order it , but it better be only a few bucks difference or I will buy on line


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## Kronk (Jan 4, 2004)

Flucod said:


> I work in a shop :
> 
> Everybody is right the LBS's business model needs to change and we are on top of it. We no longer will tie any money up in high end inventory that in the end loses us dollars. But we will find you the best price from online retailers and you can buy it from them and we will be happy to install said items (if needed) for a fair price.
> 
> The extra money from the reduced inventory will go towards keeping size runs in stock for the $350 bikes, clothing, helmets and shoes.


This is the direction I see things going. I just hope shops do better at changing their models than Radio Shack. 
Could end up a kiosk in a mall doing repairs and installs of internet purchases, or replace the photography studio in the front of the check-outs at Target stores.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> I wonder how many jobs are actually 'eliminated' as compared to many are shifted around. Less business for brick and mortar stores means more business for delivery services. More factory automation means more high tech jobs designing, installing, running and maintained this equipment. More use of computer technology means more jobs across many aspects of that field. And so on. These jobs would also tend to be higher paying than many of the jobs they replace, I'd figure.
> 
> That's kind of how it worked for me. At one point in my life, I was paid very little to manually pull stock from warehouse shelves. Later, I got paid very well designing Automated Material Handling Systems. Adapt or die, as they say.


Good on you and I hope most people can do that, but in reality I doubt many can. Look at all the check-out lines that have been replaced with automated kiosks, did all those cashiers go to school to learn how to design those machines? Doubt it, some are probably too old/have no money to do so or simply aren't "engineer" material. I don't know what the solution is, but this is the way we are marching as a society.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

My son has been riding since he was 3, training and racing through high school, tuning, maintaining and building bikes with me for he, his team, and friends, all his life. He is accustomed to being around people who know bikes; racers, coaches, wrenches, bike shop guys, industry types. He can spot a sleeper chained to a bus stop pole on the street from a block away and can tell within a moment whether you can ride or not. At 7, as I drove him to school along the bike route hear our house, we used to play a game. We'd look ahead a hundred yards to watch a cyclist and I would ask him if they know how to ride. He can tell.

Right now, while at school, he is assembling and repairing bikes at REI. They carry a wide range of bikes from kids to some pretty nice Scott DS stuff. Most of what he does is service, either quiet in the shop or more dynamically on the sales floor.

Two things:

1) He is dumfounded by how deeply ignorant and helpless people are about bikes.

2) He is getting a bit tired with dealing with adults who will not listen to a highly skilled kid who has been riding and working bikes for 18 years.

We often sit at the kitchen table over a beer while he decompresses after a day at the shop. Most of what he is experiencing are the simple challenges of dealing with retail sales to the general public. As was said by Al Swearengen (played by Ian McShane) in HBO's Deadwood:

"Ah, so you are a merchant; the slave of every hump above ground."

At the same time he is dealing with people who show very little respect for bikes, at some level thinking of them as toys, or people who think they know what they are talking about. Serving the public is something in my experience wheelhouse. It is tricky and I won't even go into that except to say that badly handled it can ruin your business.

Vending commodities, and that is where internet sales make their money, has stopped being a good profit center for the LBS for all of the reasons people have described above. What is left is the service profit center. And where it gets really sticky is when the commodity runs into the service end of things.The next thing he runs into:

3) People are surprised when they fined out that there is a labor charge for installing a part.

This is why mechanics hide in the back of the shop. 

Internet Sales service is generally limited to replacement/refund which can be pretty straightforward. By analogy my dad was an auto mechanic of 45 years. He used to say that there are mechanics and parts replacers. Guess which one garnered _any_ respect. It is with that perspective that I see internet sales folks. I'm sure it has its special touch but absent real-time, face-to-face interaction over the counter it is weak sauce. Just as Fed Ex did with delivery, taking the sweet spot out of the Mail business, online sales has taken the best of the sales experience.

My point is that internet sales have taken the cleaner business stuff that helped to shore-up the LBS.

My main point here is, though, that you guys on this site are not the more general public involved in bikes. Not even close. You either know what you are doing or talk a good game about bikes.

How much you know about retail business....?


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

Another thing is some of us are lucky to have a MTB-centric shop. My LBS is very well versed in road and covers all the usual bases for recreational/hybrid stuff, BUT they are huge into the local MTB, DH, and CX scenes. So I can walk in and choose from a myriad of MTB tire options in stock. 

And for a small shop, they carry Spesh mainly, but also Kona, Intense, Transition, and Yeti. Compared to other local shops, who only carry Giant, or only carry Trek. 

So maybe I just am lucky to have such a great LBS.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> 1) He is dumfounded by how deeply ignorant and helpless people are about bikes.
> 
> 2) He is getting a bit tired with dealing with adults who will not listen to a highly skilled kid who has been riding and working bikes for 18 years.


Sooooo I hope he doesn't convey these thoughts in his interactions with the customer, otherwise he is the typical young shop rat snob that turns off a lot of customers from entering a brick and mortar bike shop, which can indeed be intimidating for a customer who knows little about bikes.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

^ Beat me to it.
No offense to your son BM, one thing I find prevalent in bike & ski shops is this grading, and demeaning attitude amongst shop rats.

If they're talking smack about the customer's it'll quickly kill all the owners efforts to be part of the community.


...sent by dixie cup/string


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## gumby. (Mar 11, 2013)

There's far too many of those bike shop tools around here and some of them aren't so young.
If the kid thinks he's highly skilled after working 18 years on such simple machines in a bike shop he's got his hand on it.


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

like cars, lbs will have to adapt to mechanics vs sales.


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## HitmenOnlyInc (Jul 20, 2012)

Berkeley Mike, if your son works in the Ft. Collins REI, he is truly a gifted wrench.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

This thread is allegory, right?


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## Champion_Monster (Nov 30, 2014)

[QUOTE=Hit


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

80Pro-Line said:


> I just take my bikes around back of Walmart and get those guys to service them. Everybody has access to Walmart. See the new forks they installed last week?


Why would you take your bike to walmart for a service rather a LBS? There is a very good reason why people don't take their bikes to Walmart, those guys can't tie their own shoe laces.
You do realize the fork is on back to front, right?
The seat post looks bent as well.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I worked retail for a Christmas season. Sucked. I was a lot happier to swing a wrench full-time.

I'm going to play Republican for a moment and comment that automation means fewer people can create the same wealth. And that does put people out of jobs. In my present line of work, computers often do a lot of really boring math for me. I still do the interesting stuff. 

Time was, I'd have secretaries and computers in the old sense - women, probably, with slide rules - doing what my computer does now.

Hopefully, people move on to something else. And one way or another, the people who previous advances have pushed out of the economy move on to other things.

Doesn't mean it's not a painful transition, though. Someone else mentioned cheap labor flooding the market. That's a part of it too - how many of us are wearing clothes made in America? I think my Carhartts came from overseas, even.

I don't think bike shops should grovel to me for my business. It's actually been a little disillusioning to be treated better as I've become a high-end customer. Ultimately, I'm finding I support the shop that has retail hours - they're open late enough that I can actually go - and a fast service department. Sometimes I feel like their floor sales guys are idiots and could stand to develop a working understanding of mountain bike wheels, but I usually just go straight downstairs anyway.

I think the end game is that third world economies catch up and we all have to make do with less stuff. But I can't help thinking it's the cheap crap that won't survive.

I think decent-sized bike communities will always be able to support at least one good shop. Too many people who can't or don't want to work on their own bikes. This last revision has me feeling like next time, I'll get a shop to do the whole thing turnkey. We'll see if that survives finding out what it costs. 

Actually, I think QBP may be the business that's getting crowded out. I heard a rumor that SRAM and Shimano are both going to go to a shop-direct sales model. That kind of thing seems like it could give bike shops a fighting chance against some of the online distributors and UK sites.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

SV11 said:


> Why would you take your bike to walmart for a service rather a LBS? There is a very good reason why people don't take their bikes to Walmart, those guys can't tie their own shoe laces.
> You do realize the fork is on back to front, right?
> The seat post looks bent as well.


That's a performance enhancement--makes it a lot more maneuverable. 
That seat post is just a nice set-back model. Set back too low maybe?

Quit being a hater.


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

Zowie said:


> That's a performance enhancement--makes it a lot more maneuverable.
> That seat post is just a nice set-back model. Set back too low maybe?
> 
> Quit being a hater.


It's more like an accident waiting to happen, lol. 
Yeah, hmmm...about hating the bike service from walmart, I should of used suicidal instead.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Hawg said:


> So then you believe that everything should be purchased online because it's cheaper?
> 
> No more retail businesses of any kind?
> No more transactions between people?
> ...


Bike shops need to make money on service and repairs, selling bikes, and other stuff other than selling overpriced components.

Do you shop at a supermarket instead of the local mom and pop store? No? Pot, kettle, black.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

Geralt said:


> I try to support the local shops when I can, but I've left a bike shop a few times feeling more like I made a donation to a charity rather than made a purchase.


Does anyone ever walk away from the lbs feeling like they got a deal?? I support my bike shop BC I'm friends with the owner and they support the scene, build trails, put on rides.

I choose to support them on certain purchases. Frames, chains, cassettes.

But it's kind of disheartening when I try to buy a fork or groupset and get quoted Msrp. I can easily buy the item all day long for 20-35% less. Knock a little off for Christ sakes.

The only exception is wheels. So nice to just drop them off and they get fixed up and ride.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

jkidd_39 said:


> Does anyone ever walk away from the lbs feeling like they got a deal??


Sure. I got my first nice road bike for something like 40% off. It was a last-year's. It ended up being too big, but there's a chicken-and-egg problem with first bikes and sizing. I rode that bike for many years and explored a few different kinds of riding on it before the size thing turned into a problem. My brother has it now.

I got a little bit off my old mountain bike. That was mostly that negotiating prices is a big part of NYC culture - I basically just got the "both sides declare victory" discount. But it didn't make me feel like a sucker either.

When I bought my new wheels, the shop where I bought them actually did a little research on their own to make sure to quote me a competitive price. I'd have paid more online, and this way I have local support. And since I hadn't done tubeless before, I didn't have a syringe or valve core tool; they threw those in. Cheap parts, but it's a nice gesture. And the wheels rock. 

I think it's kind of unfair to the shops that people object so strenuously to MSRP on things. The whole retail business is based on the idea that retailers have spent some money upfront and spend money on an ongoing basis to have these parts available for us and handle the details of getting a hold of them for us. The Internet's right here if you know what you want, don't need it for a week or so, and can deal with whatever details when it shows up or if it has a failure later. That's also why I expect a shop to have good product knowledge and decent stock on hand, or fast access to it, though.


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## KevinGT (Dec 25, 2012)

Today is a great example of why local bike shops need to stop complaining about the internet and adapt.

Pedaling through the parking lot at my local trail, my left Crank Brothers pedal came completely off the spindle. Dammit! But I knew this was a risk as the pedal has about 2000 miles on it without a service and has been feeling pretty rough the past few rides. My fault...shoulda seen it coming. Fortunately, Crank Brothers sells an inexpensive rebuild kit.

Since I was already out, I decided to check the three shops closest to me to see if they had the kit in stock. If not, I'd ask them to order it for me since I won't be riding again for a week and have a spare set of pedals I can use in the meantime.

Shop 1: Our hours are 10AM - 6PM Mon-Sat. We're closed on Sundays.
Shop 2: Our hours are 11AM - 5PM Mon-Sat. We're closed on Sundays.
Shop 3: Our hours are 10AM - 6PM Mon-Sat. We're closed on Sundays.

Really? I think most people still work Mon-Fri and your shop is closed on one of the two days most people have off? And you close early in the evening when you are open?

So what did I do? I logged onto JensonUSA. The kit is in stock, lower than MSRP, and will be at my house before I have the chance to get to the local shop.


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## Oldfatbaldguy (Nov 4, 2010)

It isnt just the internet that gangs up on LBS's...or a number of other genre's of enthusiast-service industries.

My wife's girlfriend's little brother got his start in business fixing fishing reels for friends. He also bought and sold parts, starting with rescuing junk rods and reels for their components. By the time he was a senior in HS, he had graduated to outboard motors, electronics, light gunsmithing, etc., working out of a shed on his parents backyard, as well as an old econoline van. He also worked his way through college, getting an electrical engineering degree doing the same work.

When he moved away and took up residence near his first "real" job, he learned that he could no longer operate any business of any kind out of his home. Or a truck. Or a storage unit. He could, however, rent, buy, or build a shop within certain zones designated by his new city. A further complication was the fact that he had used connections with a local hardware store back home to order supplies and parts...the store gained by having a sharp repair tech available, and the kid benefited by getting a discount on goods.

Turns out that most of his old suppliers refused to sell product to someone that did NOT have a storefront in town.

Its never just about selling fishing rods, or selling bikes, parts, accessories, and service. We refuse to buy from the LBS down the block because the municipality has turned him into the tax man.

How much is that sidewalk in front worth to you?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> At the same time he is dealing with people who show very little respect for bikes, at some level thinking of them as toys,


In the first world, Bikes ARE toys. And pretty simple ones at that. 
It seems to me that the main reason most people are in the bike business is that they like to play with bikes and have decided to forego more potentially lucrative vocations to do so as much as possible. I personally would love to spend my days working in a bike shop, but I would have to be independently wealthy to consider it a viable choice as a 'career'.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

In my area, the only shop that has any stock of parts, tools or clothes that aren't covered in dust is Performance. They also have a great return policy. They are also open on Sundays. So guess where I buy all my tools, chains, lubes, grips, gloves, shorts and an occasional component? Guess which shop is the only one in the area that carries big bottles of Stan's? Yep. Performance.

I can't showroom any other stores cause they don't have anything except wire bead tires and gel comfort seats.


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## Geralt (Jul 11, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I think it's kind of unfair to the shops that people object so strenuously to MSRP on things.


I'm okay paying MSRP to buy locally. It bugs me when shops sell at higher prices than MSRP. I've run into that at three LBS here. Is that pretty common in the bike business or something peculiar to my area?


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

Universal Cycles. I take my bike to them for work, then I order from their online sales sight.


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

Geralt said:


> I'm okay paying MSRP to buy locally. It bugs me when shops sell at higher prices than MSRP. I've run into that at three LBS here. Is that pretty common in the bike business or something peculiar to my area?


Got to pay overhead somehow?


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## turbogrover (Dec 4, 2005)

yzedf said:


> Adapt or die.


Unfortunately, this is true. The OP's LBS didn't keep up with the current market needs, and so, didn't make enough money to survive. 
The US bike market is fickle, and changes too quickly for an old school LBS to keep up.
The LBS's in my area that do well, have focused on their strengths, diversified, and added to their business to make up for the loss of new bike sales.
Bike rentals, used bikes, classes, repairs, online sales, and even clothing and food. (a coffee shop, souvenir shop, snack shop, or even a bar, added to the shop)

An old school LBS that continues with the old formula retail program created before the internet, will soon be extinct. (with a few exceptions, of course)

I live in a large metro area, so we have plenty of shops to choose from, and the only ones I find interesting to visit, are the ones that are diverse and current. I don't really have a need to visit a basic shop full of mid to low-end bikes, last years bikes, and no selection of aftermarket parts. That style of bike shop has virtually disappeared from the area.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

92gli said:


> In my area, the only shop that has any stock of parts, tools or clothes that aren't covered in dust is Performance. They also have a great return policy. They are also open on Sundays. So guess where I buy all my tools, chains, lubes, grips, gloves, shorts and an occasional component? Guess which shop is the only one in the area that carries big bottles of Stan's? Yep. Performance.
> 
> I can't showroom any other stores cause they don't have anything except wire bead tires and gel comfort seats.


You gotta get the best price on that Rx Super Fatty Comfort Seat, and that wire ebad for the beat down commuter.

But seriously, claims by others about "don't showroom the LBS" I agree with you, there is nothing in the shop to buy to begin with. Also agree on Performance although the ones in my area don't have as much as u have described.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

The LBS's didn't get my business when I was looking for a new bike last year, because they had no full-suspension bikes in stock that would fit me. Not one.

Performance didn't either, and had the temerity to tell me that I "didn't need" a full-suspension bike (without even asking what kind of riding I do or where). I didn't need a hardtail either, because I already have one.

Eventually found a bike that fits me well, a leftover 26er, at a factory outlet store.

The proliferation of wheel sizes, axle standards, et. al. must be hurting the bike shops a lot, as it is so much more inventory to carry. They seem to have responded by limiting the inventory they carry to the larger sizes, presumably on the assumption that there are more tall athletes than short ones.


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## 80Pro-Line (Dec 3, 2014)

SV11 said:


> Why would you take your bike to walmart for a service rather a LBS? There is a very good reason why people don't take their bikes to Walmart, those guys can't tie their own shoe laces.
> You do realize the fork is on back to front, right?
> The seat post looks bent as well.


:skep: You do realize my post was a joke, right?


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## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

No worries. When 3D printing hits its stride it will kill internet sales, Amazon, UPS, and cheap Chinese labor.

The game always is changing. :thumbsup:


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

92gli said:


> In my area, the only shop that has any stock of parts, tools or clothes that aren't covered in dust is Performance. They also have a great return policy. They are also open on Sundays. So guess where I buy all my tools, chains, lubes, grips, gloves, shorts and an occasional component? Guess which shop is the only one in the area that carries big bottles of Stan's? Yep. Performance.
> 
> I can't showroom any other stores cause they don't have anything except wire bead tires and gel comfort seats.


The Performance Bike 1/2 mile from my front door carries a good selection of cables, brake pads, and even about 6 models of chains. They have tubes and sealant, and about 10 kinds of grips. They also have lots of tools in stock- both on bike, and shop tools. But, in the end, it's Performance. I dislike the sales philosophy, I dislike the staff's attitude, and I especially dislike the 'hard-sell' to join their rewards program to save money on for the $4 cable I'm buying.

Despite my disdain for the company, I have to laugh. Somehow they're doing pretty well in the face of change. I can only attribute it to the online sales. On two separate occasions now I've literally had the sales guy bluntly tell me to buy something, and after I've made a thorough assessment of how well it works *coughcoughWhenYou'reDoneWithItcoughcough* bring it back if I was dissatisfied. One one of these occasions were were talking about tires.
I mean the guy basically said buy this tire, ride it and *just before* it's considered to be 'getting pretty worn', bring it back and say you don't like it and you can swap it for something else. 
He actually ended the statement with "We know it'll be used. You've gotta ride it a bunch to get a good feel for it. A company this big can eat the cost of a tire or two".

I'm still not sure ethically how to react to this.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Geralt said:


> I'm okay paying MSRP to buy locally. It bugs me when shops sell at higher prices than MSRP. I've run into that at three LBS here. Is that pretty common in the bike business or something peculiar to my area?


I've never seen that. Or, I'm more credulous than I think I am.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I think it's kind of unfair to the shops that people object so strenuously to MSRP on things. The whole retail business is based on the idea that retailers have spent some money upfront and spend money on an ongoing basis to have these parts available for us and handle the details of getting a hold of them for us. The Internet's right here if you know what you want, don't need it for a week or so, and can deal with whatever details when it shows up or if it has a failure later. That's also why I expect a shop to have good product knowledge and decent stock on hand, or fast access to it, though.


You make a very valid point. However, what about in the case of product that is not stock? I buy stuff that's never on the shelf. I'm paying up front 100% so I'd usually expect to knock a little off.

And to go along with this I do bring a lot of customers to the shop. I buy all there shirts to wear when warming up before races.

I will support my shop but sometimes I feel like I'm only doing that. Supporting them cuz I never get a better deal than I could find online.

Hope this post doesn't come off as complaining. Just seeing if my point of view matches others.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jorgemonkey (Mar 10, 2004)

I don't buy much in bike parts. I tend to ride my gear to the death. And when I do I tend to go to one of 2 shops in my area. The choice is mainly done by where I am. One is easier to get to while I'm at my office, and the other easier when leaving my kids school. I don't really have any loyalty to either one, and I don't expect getting discounts at either. The other day I brought a bike in because I had a crank that was stuck because I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing. They went ahead and took it off for me. It took the mechanic about 10 minutes to do so, and said it was no charge. I went ahead and bought a couple items anyways, though I hadn't planned on it.

And I am not one of the "go to the shop, try something out, then order it online" type of person. If I come to your shop to try out a bike/shoes/etc, I'll either buy it from you or not at all.


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

80Pro-Line said:


> :skep: You do realize my post was a joke, right?


Well I'd normally assume that, but your post is explicit, so what am I to think?

P.S I didn't laugh, but I did get concerned.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

jkidd_39 said:


> You make a very valid point. However, what about in the case of product that is not stock? I buy stuff that's never on the shelf. I'm paying up front 100% so I'd usually expect to knock a little off.
> 
> And to go along with this I do bring a lot of customers to the shop. I buy all there shirts to wear when warming up before races.
> 
> ...


I'll order parts through the shop at retail sometimes if it's convenient or I want some help getting the right thing. But when I know what I want and the shop doesn't have it, I'm ordering online myself. Like others have said, I can order a part just as well as the shop. So when I get stuff at the shop, either it's because it's too cheap to stress out about or there's something else driving it.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

XJaredX said:


> We have maybe 5-6 LBS's in my town. Some suck. Some are awesome.
> 
> I am extremely loyal to the one, and they've turned into friends of mine. They do so much for the cycling community, their prices are fair (sometimes I yell at them for being "too" cheap to me, especially fatbike tires), and their service on my bike is fantastic. QBP orders show up faster than if I would order online. I love seeing their pit bull run put from behind the counter to greet me happily.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. I don't know if you guys have a good relationship with your LBS but I think I do with mine and most of the time they can get me parts for the same price or less than I can get them. I suspect they get a discount from QPB or wherever they get most of their parts.

Yes, occasionally I can find something deeply discounted but it's usually not what I want.

And they always have the little parts I need for a project but forgot to order. Not to mention that while I have advanced in my bike repair skills to the point that I can do almost anything but service shocks and forks, sometimes I don't have the time to do the repairs and my LBS charges reasonable rates and has decent turnaround times.

Time is worth something.

Not to mention my LBS is the one store in town I like spending money at. I think I am probably one of their best customers having bought four high-end bikes from them in the last three years as well as many, many parts and many repairs and, without kissing my ass, they act like they appreciate my business.

Good service is a product like any other. Bike stores that offer it in a receptive market will continue to survive even in the face of online competition.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Flyin_W said:


> ^ Beat me to it.
> No offense to your son BM, one thing I find prevalent in bike & ski shops is this grading, and demeaning attitude amongst shop rats.
> 
> If they're talking smack about the customer's it'll quickly kill all the owners efforts to be part of the community.
> ...


I like to deal with knowledgable experts in any field but dislike it when they are insufferable about their knowledge.

When I first started mountain biking I remember going into a store with some questions about gear and what kind of bike to get for the area and the condescension for the staff was extremely irritating. I appreciate the skill required to be good bike mechanic but not everybody has the time or the inclination to acquire those skills...which is why we go to bike stores; a concept that some LBS employees need to internalize.

It's like when, as an Emergency Physician, I call a nephrologist to consult him about a patient and he acts "put out" because I don't know as much as he does about nephrology.

That's why I'm consulting you, mother****er.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Oldfatbaldguy said:


> Its never just about selling fishing rods, or selling bikes, parts, accessories, and service. We refuse to buy from the LBS down the block because the municipality has turned him into the tax man.


I never thought about it like that...but that is very profound.


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## santa cruzer73 (Oct 22, 2013)

Most of the guys at my lbs are *****! They treat the customers like crap. My advice is learn to work on your own stuff or dont get into mtb and always buy online!!! I would rather wait 2 days for a tire than deal with people that know less about ny bike than I do!


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

santa cruzer73 said:


> Most of the guys at my lbs are *****! They treat the customers like crap. My advice is learn to work on your own stuff or dont get into mtb and always buy online!!! I would rather wait 2 days for a tire than deal with people that know less about ny bike than I do!


Every sport has it's share of insufferable people. My ex-wife and I once borrowed a couple of Kayaks and, as we paddled slowly up a nearby river a "professional" kayaker in what looked like the kayak equivalent of a $12,000 S-works mountain bike passed us.

The look of scorn and derision on his face as he glared at us for besmirching his river was priceless.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

I buy my Bikes from the LBS, and occasionally parts but mostly, I've learned to do the wrenching myself. What I do now is order most consumables online so I have them if I need them. For example, I always keep an extra set of brake pads, a brand new chain, SPD Cleats, Tubeless valve, Stan's sealant, KMC Chain Links, tire patches (not tube patch), spare spokes, spare tires, stuff like that. I often buy this stuff online because it's cheaper and easier. 

Days off are precious, and it would piss me off if I missed a ride because I needed a little part and the LBS was closed, stopping me from riding. By stocking basic consumable parts in my tool box, I'm able to make small adjustments the night before a ride without depending on a LBS to have it in stock, or even be open for business.


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## Champion_Monster (Nov 30, 2014)

I'm about to buy a decent MTB.... I guess. I'll be relying on the same shop that I picked up a Crossroads Step Through for my Wife and a Sirrus Sport for myself. So far the service has been very pleasant, adjustments (based on the function of the bike) have been excellent.

If it prevents me from an irritating, unnecessary learning curve to master bike mechanics and adjustments, then frequenting this shop is priceless. 

Their mechanics do a great job of not being condescending and have been willing to show some basic stuff that needed to be learned quickly.


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## MASC1104 (Feb 2, 2015)

Times are tough for a lot out there, for both businesses and individual people struggling. This has been a touchy issue for quite a while now and i see it come up on other forums in disciplines other than MTBiking as well. 

I bought my last bike from my LBS even tho I could get it cheaper online. I have ordered some parts from my LBS that I have them put on for me but have probably ordered more online that I put on myself.

I dont know the answer but IMO no one should feel guilty about where they spend the money they earn, wherever that might be.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MASC1104 said:


> I dont know the answer but IMO no one should feel guilty about where they spend the money they earn, wherever that might be.


Good point. The money I save on bike parts I'm likely to spend on passes to bike parks, going out to eat, registering my motorized toys, etc. Some will even find it's way into my savings. For me, there's no reason to put someone else's bottom line above my own just because they chose to try to make a living off bikes. I highly doubt the bike shop owner is considering my profitability when out shopping. They sure aren't taking into consideration helping out local and smaller bike builders by carrying their products (with a very few exceptions).


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## Bethany1 (Jan 18, 2012)

It sounds like a lot of stores are held hostage from manufactures. You will sell our stuff at our prices or we won't let you sell anything and take away our product. I think most of us get overhead, paying employees and inventory.

The sewing machine industry is the same way. If you want to open a store you will sell just what we tell you to sell and at the highest price we can get away with. If you break the contract you are screwed. You can't sell anything online and you can't give prices over the phone making you physically go to the shop.

I live 80 miles from a LBS which is a 30 dollar round trip with my SUV. I wish I could just call up, order the part and have them ship it to me saving me a 30 dollar "shipping" cost. I'd happily buy a box, pay for shipping and wait a week to support a LBS.

I was in Barnes and Noble a couple of weeks ago as I found the cheapest price for Dr. Who Season 8 there. Turns out it was an online only price and they wanted 100 bucks for the set. When I questioned the difference she said, "So I get paid". I asked if she would honor the online price or compete with it she said "No, but I can order it online for you".. Yeah. So can I. It was a 50 dollar price difference. No wonder we go online. Hubby was so pleased I found a copy for him.

It's not only LBS that making shopping difficult.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

All right wasn't gonna throw my $.02 in.....but.....

I worked in a shop for several years, and know what things cost. This was in the infancy of brick and mortar stores just starting to dabble in online sales. Shop owner had Jo interest in it. A few years ago the shop closed it doors. 

For me it was rough going from buying parts/bikes cheap to having to pay retail. Was no longer buying the latest and greatest when it came to bikes. Buying frames that were a year old on blowout. Parts was the same way. Fortunately, that was right about the time 10 spd became the norm and 9 spd stuff was cheaper. Didn't really feel comfortable going to the competing LBS across town. So I started shopping online. 

Fast forward to late last week.....decided last minute to swap tires out for a race. Went to the most popular shop in town....seems like they always have everything everybody wants....at least that is what I hear. Go in looking for a 29x2.2 Ikon and a 29x2.25 Ardent.....popular tires for out area. At this point I was gonna pay whatever the going price was. No go on either tire. 

Fortunately Jenson has a brick and mortar store about 20 mins away. Popped online and checked store inventory and saw they had what I needed. Normally I would shop from home and get them to price match....I paid the price they were selling them for without question. I got lucky that they are close enough to drive to. Needed them that day, so stick on hand won out.


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## BikeIntelligencer (Jun 5, 2009)

I think it's kinda cool that most riders on this thread seem sincerely interested in supporting their LBS and will do so unless prevented by poor business practices. That's certainly the way I feel. If we do our best to send our dollars their way but for any number of reasons it doesn't work out, then we've held up our part of the bargain.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bethany1 said:


> I was in Barnes and Noble a couple of weeks ago as I found the cheapest price for Dr. Who Season 8 there. Turns out it was an online only price and they wanted 100 bucks for the set. When I questioned the difference she said, "So I get paid". I asked if she would honor the online price or compete with it she said "No, but I can order it online for you".. Yeah. So can I. It was a 50 dollar price difference. No wonder we go online. Hubby was so pleased I found a copy for him.
> 
> It's not only LBS that making shopping difficult.


Man, for not much more than 100 bucks, you can get a year worth of unlimited streaming video through Netflix or Amazon Prime. Though you have to wait until a current season to end before it becomes available thru streaming services, the bang for the buck is ridiculous as compared to shelling out for DVDs. (I'm sure you already know this, but I had to mention it; I can't believe that people still shell out the same amount of money for a couple hours worth of a single movie when you can get months of almost unlimited movies and show for the same price.)


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## HitmenOnlyInc (Jul 20, 2012)

mtnbikej said:


> Fortunately Jenson has a brick and mortar store about 20 mins away.


This would be so dangerous for me.


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## Bethany1 (Jan 18, 2012)

LOL. I have Amazon Prime and Netflix and don't mind streaming. 

My hubby wants physical copies of blu-ray movies. He's just old school that way. Dracula Untold comes out as a Steelbook (metal case) Tuesday. All men have SOS..shiny object syndrome and he's no exception with movies.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bethany1 said:


> LOL. I have Amazon Prime and Netflix and don't mind streaming.
> 
> My hubby wants physical copies of blu-ray movies. He's just old school that way. Dracula Untold comes out as a Steelbook (metal case) Tuesday. All men have SOS..shiny object syndrome and he's no exception with movies.


Gotcha. 
I know all about the SOS and teaching old dogs new tricks.


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## Paulsmith55 (Jan 16, 2015)

This^


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## Paulsmith55 (Jan 16, 2015)

Berkeley Mike said:


> No online business, or corporate bike shop, would sponsor any of my teams.
> 
> They didn't repair the bikes at the oddest of times.
> 
> ...


Well said


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

bob13bob said:


> like cars, lbs will have to adapt to mechanics vs sales.


^^^ This is the key. The small shops have to specialize in being mechanics and sell just maintenance items that people don't want to wait to get. Need a new bike, go to one of the big bike retailers. Need your bike fixed before a week from next Tuesday, bring it in.

There may also be a market for used bikes. I'm sure there are retailers that don't get into "pre-owned", but being a bike mechanic and selling used bikes may be the way to go.

And these small shops can't survive with a bunch of people hanging around wanting to shoot the breeze. When was the last time your auto mechanic spent an afternoon sitting around talking shop. I mean I thought that was what MTBR was for.

John


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> No online business, or corporate bike shop, would sponsor any of my teams.
> 
> They didn't repair the bikes at the oddest of times.
> 
> ...


My LBS's do none of those things, it's average Joe riders that typically put up. Commerce does not necessarily equal community.


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## BikeIntelligencer (Jun 5, 2009)

The LBSes I deal with ALL contribute to the mtb community in multiple ways. They sponsor trail parties. They sponsor local teams, like high school teams. They contribute to local bike festivals. They host rides. They do special events. They support local mtb club events. In other words, they ARE part of the community. It's not just good karma, it's just good business.


slapheadmofo said:


> My LBS's do none of those things, it's average Joe riders that typically put up. Commerce does not necessarily equal community.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

BikeIntelligencer said:


> The LBSes I deal with ALL contribute to the mtb community in multiple ways. They sponsor trail parties. They sponsor local teams, like high school teams. They contribute to local bike festivals. They host rides. They do special events. They support local mtb club events. In other words, they ARE part of the community. It's not just good karma, it's just good business.


Sounds like you've got some solid and involved shops. 
If mine did more, I'd be a lot more likely to spend more $$ with them. 
They stuff they do tends to be pretty much all road-related.

Our brewery on the other hand kicks in regularly, so I make sure and drink plenty of beer. It's a pretty good relationship.


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## cobraking (Aug 13, 2014)

Berkeley Mike said:


> No online business, or corporate bike shop, would sponsor any of my teams.
> 
> They didn't repair the bikes at the oddest of times.
> 
> ...


It is quite hard to find a convenient way to do all of those things and have it be profitable. Yes they could do those things and get on everyone's good side and build a solid reputation built on customers first, everything else second, and still go out of business. It's so much easier to say they should do any number of things than it is to actually do it and make money for it.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

HitmenOnlyInc said:


> I think there are a great many folks who need bike shops, but not a lot who are discussing here. There may always be a need for servicing the cruisers, comfort bikes, campus crawlers and bmx'ers. Those folks may not care that parts need to be ordered and are glad to not have to hassle with DYI.


^ Yes.

It is very hard for a LBS to cater to every need for serious MTB enthusiasts and DIYers, which describes most posters on MTBR. The marketplace is huge and very diverse.

Bike shops can easily service mainstream bicycle purchasers -- people who aren't doing all the research, doing their own maintenance and modifications, and following all the latest trends in new components and gear. They need to stock and be knowledgeable about the products that are of most interest to the average person walking through their door.

The local riding conditions dictates the market as well, of course. Shops in the midwest have never sold a downhill bike, and they rarely sell bikes with more than 5" travel so they don't stock those, either.


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## 1trakryder (Apr 21, 2010)

Like a lot of us I do want to have a LBS to go to when I need something quick. I've recently moved and have been searching for the shop that "feels" right and has the stuff I like. Found the one I feel comfortable with and stopped in again yesterday because i'm putting together a bike and need some parts. He happened to have just the Chris King headset I want in stock (a fluke but a nice one) and a crankset I've been looking for. The headset was priced right along with the online stores so I asked about the cranks-he couldn't buy them for what I can online. As bad as I feel I just have to save the money. It will help me buy the BB to match the headset and i'll order that from him and he said he'd put them in. I don't have facing tools or a press so there will always be things a good mechanic can do for me. The cool thing is he understands that hard earned money has to be stretched and he knows I'll be back for other things down the road. Lucky to have found this shop not too far away.


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## MASC1104 (Feb 2, 2015)

I live in the Washington DC/Northern VA metro area and there are a TON of LBS around here. That also includes the large corporate entities like Performance, REI, Hudson Trail Outfitters, etc that service bikes, albeit perhaps not at the same quality as most of the LBS, but they still capture a piece of the market. I do not know every shop but since I belong to a mountain bike advocacy group rooted here, I am aware of most of them. I can only think of maybe 2 that have closed. That might sound like a lot to some but its not even a tiny dent in the amount around here. Yes, this is a large population area but these shops have learned how to survive. The two that didnt, well, I have been to and I can see why they closed.


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## kazlx (Jun 13, 2005)

One fatal flaw (for me) is that when you walk into an LBS, they assume you don't know jack or minimal. There are plenty of times I am perfectly capable of doing the work myself, but just don't have the time. So, for the love of god, just do the job and do it right, because I know how it should be done. Nothing pisses me off more than getting parts/work/whatever promised at a certain time and not delivered. I took it to you because I wanted it at a certain time and dropped it off because you said it would be done. When it's not ready and I don't get a phone call with a heads up, I'm annoyed to say the least.

It's at that point, I should have just ordered online, stayed up for an extra hour and done it my damn self.

Pricing is the other thing. All this selling stuff for MSRP is BS. Why in the hell would I pay $1k plus extra for a bike or frame to buy from an LBS? I whole-heartedly agree with the cross between having a shop and ordering online. Jenson is (relatively) local to me and I order from them all the time. I've had awesome experiences with Universal Cycle and some other shops that I would easily frequent that have B&M and online presences. I get tired of the whole, 'you should support LBS just because' argument. If they go out of business, they were doing something wrong...


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## ChristianCoté (Jul 13, 2014)

Here in Vancouver there are a dozen LBS on just a single street, and yet the only place I can ever get good service and decent prices at is my avatar, and it ain't an LBS either. I got so tired of dealing with their **** that I got a stand and a good set of park tools and now do 100% of my own wrench work. I'm a lot happier this way.

Bike shops have no future. Bicycle mechanics do, but only if they can't be utter pricks about it. I remember the first time I stepped into an LBS and asked a question about frames and forks I was told by the mechanic that he 'didn't have time to go over engineering 101' with me.

That guy is out of business now and that puts a big ****ing smile on my face.


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## robbot (Apr 12, 2014)

My favorite bike shop of all time is called Relics Bicycles. It looks like an abandoned building and only has one employee/owner. He only sells used bikes from at least 20 years ago. I have never met a nicer guy. He charged ridiculously low prices for labour and if i needed something done quick he would do it right away. His shop was filled with greasy used parts, wire bead tires in obscure sizes, and odd bikes his customers brought to get serviced. Unfortunately I don't live in the same city anymore, but I would go back in a heartbeat.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Whenever I read one of these threads, I always wonder if anyone actually gives their LBS a chance.

I've done this at more than one shop, it's work at two and not at one. I've gone in, meet the owner or manager and bluntly tell them I'm into shopping/spending my money locally, but I'm not made of money and can't just piss it away. If they are willing, I'd prefer to come to them with an internet price and see how close they can come, if it's close enough, I'll buy from them if not no hurt feelings.

Its worked at two shops and I've spent a ton of money at them. One shop said no and I never went back. One of the two, the owner is almost never there anymore to ask for a better price, so I've stopped going there.

But to give you an example, back when Huck & Roll was still around, they were blowing out Tallboy Carbons with a 135mm year since the 142s had just came out. Called the shop, told him I had one in my cart and asked what he could do. I mentioned getting a 142 rear wasn't worth another $1500. He called back in a hour and came within $300. Close enough to support locals over some guy 5 states away that does nothing for my local area.

Back in the early 2000's I went in with a price for a CK wheelset, the guys in the shop ended up asking me where since it was a better price than their cost. They didn't get pissed.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TwoTone said:


> Whenever I read one of these threads, I always wonder if anyone actually gives their LBS a chance.
> 
> I've done this at more than one shop, it's work at two and not at one. I've gone in, meet the owner or manager and bluntly tell them I'm into shopping/spending my money locally, but I'm not made of money and can't just piss it away. If they are willing, I'd prefer to come to them with an internet price and see how close they can come, if it's close enough, I'll buy from them if not no hurt feelings.
> 
> ...


So basically you deserve to pay less?


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

Jayem said:


> So basically you deserve to pay less?


No. He or anyone else has the option to pay less, either by a close price match by an LBS or buying online. You have that option, too.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Maybe giving you breaks on price and discounts on labor is part of the reason he is gone....


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I enjoy these threads...I have a special place in my heart for LBSs b/c I worked in two different shops through college as a wrench, salesperson, and manager. Great fun. Fueled my love of cycling (and subsequently emptied my wallet). The time was the mid-90s and while the internet wasn't a force to be reckoned with, the Supergo add in MBA was for cheap bike parts. Look, shops are still thriving where I am..sure..some of gone under but new ones have popped up and some have even (gasp!) expanded! The folks on this site (enthusiasts) represent a small fraction of the customer base for the average LBS; the shops I worked in made their bread-and-butter sales from average joes buying average priced bikes/accessories/clothes and who were happy to pay whatever for parts and service. Sure, the internet has made pricing more transparent but again...most folks likely wouldn't shop online b/c they don't know what they are buying etc. Shops must strive to give A+ customer service and keep their margins where they need to be to stay in business. LBSs must realize that they aren't going to have much in the way of higher-end component sales and just factor that into their business model. Clothing and accessories as well as labor are where they make their best margins and this should be their focus..most folks like to try on their cycling clothes and so the shop has an advantage there.

Edit. We have a v. high-end shop in town that is expanding..how is that possible? Good customer service and catering to the market we have here. Very visible in the local cycling community. Very visible on social media. I understand that they will work with folks on price for parts..but I am sure only if you ask.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

TiGeo said:


> Shops must strive to give A+ customer service and keep their margins where they need to be to stay in business. LBSs must realize that they aren't going to have much in the way of higher-end component sales and just factor that into their business model. Clothing and accessories as well as labor are where they make their best margins and this should be their focus..most folks like to try on their cycling clothes and so the shop has an advantage there.
> 
> Edit. We have a v. high-end shop in town that is expanding..how is that possible? Good customer service and catering to the market we have here. Very visible in the local cycling community. Very visible on social media. I understand that they will work with folks on price for parts..but I am sure only if you ask.


Nailed it all. Be visible, provide great service, be knowledgeable about the things most customers need to know, and for god's sake, make money on service & repair.

It takes all those things plus solid business acumen to be successful long term.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Jayem said:


> So basically you deserve to pay less?


Par for the course with you. The point was that many people go straight to online without giving the LBS a chance. But you knew that and choose to see the post in a negative light.

The shop I bought my TBc from thanked me for giving him the opportunity to make the sale. I didn't have to risk waiting the hour and losing the closeout in my size. He didn't sell it to me for a loss. It was paid for before he ordered it, so it didn't sit on the show room floor costing him money, etc...

I don't deserve to pay less, but I also have the choice not to pay MSRP. I have bought a ton of stuff from him which costs me more than it would online, but he normally comes close enough that I don't mind the extra cost to support a local business.

But I guess you're right, **** them, I should just buy everything online.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jayem said:


> So basically you deserve to pay less?


It's not a matter of deserving anything, it's a matter of being willing to pay only what something is worth TO ME. Then it's up to the seller to decide whether that number works for them, or not, or is close enough for some haggling.

Does he owe me a deal? No. 
Do I owe him my business? Also no.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

To reiterate a few points that others have already made, a successful shop has to know where to make their margins as well as make themselves relevant in the community. My local, The Garage, does a pretty good job of this. They specialize in service and custom builds, and don't do a lot of retail. They're also a hub of the cycling community. It's pretty common to find people just dropping in to BS and shoot the breeze. It's a place people want to go. That all comes down to the owner's personality and people skills.

I understand how in some areas it's a pain to wait a couple of weeks and drive back to a shop if they order a product, but that's not the case where we live. It never takes them very long to get a part in; generally the same week. Since we live in a small city with a centralized downtown, it's not out of the way to drop in. I still buy some things online (e.g. Shimano brake pads) but the majority of what I need I just get from them. Their prices are pretty competitive for a lot of parts, like tires, so if it's not costing me (much) more or taking much/any longer, buying locally is a no-brainer.

I've seen plenty of the cookie-cutter crappy bike shops that I remember from ever other strip mall in Northern VA, and it's hard to understand how some of them survive.


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## unabashedlypro (Nov 14, 2014)




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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's not a matter of deserving anything, it's a matter of being willing to pay only what something is worth TO ME. Then it's up to the seller to decide whether that number works for them


It's called the price. It's usually on a tag. That's kind of why they went to all that trouble to put it there.


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## ChristianCoté (Jul 13, 2014)

Jayem said:


> It's called the price. It's usually on a tag. That's kind of why they went to all that trouble to put it there.


In fairness, this isn't just the way things are. It's certainly the standard way we do business in North America and much of the western world, but there are nevertheless a LOT of people who adopt a pro-bargaining perspective of buying and selling. I know that there can be an assumption of cheapness/entitlement upon seeing it here, but that just isn't the full story.

This guy may have the right idea, really, for shop owners even moreso. If the option is between not making sales at all to a lot of cyclists who are inclined to shopping online, and selling to some of them at a price somewhere between MSRP and online retail ON A PURELY VOLUNTARY BASIS, I feel the owner taking a long view of things would be thankful for the latter option.

Rigidity in your model isn't going to help a struggling business at all, so it's at least worth considering, imo.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

There are a ton of circumstances left in the US where sticker is just the dealer's opening statement in a negotiation.

I've only paid sticker for a complete bike once. I rarely pay sticker for parts involved in a decent-sized project. I don't think anyone pays sticker for a car. There usually is no sticker price for services like shoe or watch repair. It's notoriously flexible on ski gear and computer hardware. Etc.

I mean, if I walk into a shop for a couple brake pads and a chain, I'm just going to pay what they ask. Why bother negotiating something so inexpensive. But when things start costing on the order of a day's pay, at the very least, I'm going to ask for a quote, regardless of what is or isn't posted. They can always say "no," but there's often a little movement possible. If I can save an hour's pay in under a minute, I will.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

AndrwSwitch said:


> There are a ton of circumstances left in the US where sticker is just the dealer's opening statement in a negotiation.
> 
> I've only paid sticker for a complete bike once. I rarely pay sticker for parts involved in a decent-sized project. I don't think anyone pays sticker for a car. There usually is no sticker price for services like shoe or watch repair. It's notoriously flexible on ski gear and computer hardware. Etc.
> 
> I mean, if I walk into a shop for a couple brake pads and a chain, I'm just going to pay what they ask. Why bother negotiating something so inexpensive. But when things start costing on the order of a day's pay, at the very least, I'm going to ask for a quote, regardless of what is or isn't posted. They can always say "no," but there's often a little movement possible. If I can save an hour's pay in under a minute, I will.


This. That is, if I'm buying something somewhere other than my local shop, say I'm riding out of town and need a fix. At my local shop, I have automatic discounts since I'm part of the shop race team and a preferred customer. I like the sound of that: preferred customer. Yeah, maybe I do deserve to pay less.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jayem said:


> It's called the price. It's usually on a tag. That's kind of why they went to all that trouble to put it there.


I find they usually get it wrong. 
The tag typically shows the MSRP, and we all know what the 'S' stands for, right?
The actual price is whatever we agree it is.

Do you really never negotiate for anything? Cars? Your house? Cable/internet/phone service? Construction projects or other services? Nothing? 
First off, I find that pretty hard to believe. Secondly, why the hell not?


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> ... why the hell not?


"...they went to all that trouble to put it there."


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## Mr5150 (Dec 20, 2011)

unabashedlypro said:


> View attachment 962244


And yet your post is #139....
***********

Good discussion BTW.


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## cohenfive (Jan 12, 2004)

I've tried several LBS and have never been happy. Either it takes a long time to get service done, or they are charging me over list price for parts. I finally found an independent mechanic who is good, fast and fairly priced. Instead of stocking parts, he lets you know what you need and you just go online and buy them, and ship them directly to him. Since most LBS don't have a lot of parts in inventory anyway, this doesn't usually waste a lot of time...and when the parts arrive he immediately installs them. So far this is working out great, and I've taken several bikes to him. I'm a happy camper, sorry LBS...


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

cobraking said:


> It is quite hard to find a convenient way to do all of those things and have it be profitable. Yes they could do those things and get on everyone's good side and build a solid reputation built on customers first, everything else second, and still go out of business. It's so much easier to say they should do any number of things than it is to actually do it and make money for it.





ColinL said:


> ^ Yes.
> 
> It is very hard for a LBS to cater to every need for serious MTB enthusiasts and DIYers, which describes most posters on MTBR. The marketplace is huge and very diverse.
> 
> ...


These two posts hit the nail on the head. People like me, and I assume a lot of the people here, just aren't potential customers for an LBS for most situations. I know how do do just about everything and have the tools for everything short of press-fit BB and headset installation/removal. Who ARE customers is your "typical biker" who either doesn't have the knowledge, the confidence or the time to do their own work. I do support my LBSs by getting their name out there to "typical bikers" and supporting/advertising their events personally and through our IMBA chapter though.

If an LBS wants to thrive, they need to grow the number of "typical bikers," by doing the little things that get people into riding and buying bikes and parts. Go to the local events, create events if they don't exist, get your name out there. If they go out of business, it's probably because the number of "typical bikers" is shrinking, not the internet...although it certainly does impact their business and will thin the LBS herd.


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

Do you know how much more business I would give LBSs if they, just occasionally, had something in stock that I need without telling me they can order it? I would be more than willing to pay extra to get a replacement derailleur from an LBS if it meant I could ride the next day instead of being off one of my bikes for 3-7 days. I live in the metro DC area, and have literally called 15 bike shops looking for something as simple as a SRAM x-9 rear derailleur, and none of them have it, "but they can order it". 

Seriously, just stock basic replacement parts that the average rider needs. I know if you're a small store, you can't afford to have that much unpurchased stock laying around, but convenience is key, and people who need stuff TODAY instead of next week will gladly pay more for it, and the LBS will profit more. 

That being said, I there are certain stores in the area who let me look through their junk parts bin, or sell me a ziplock bag of rock n roll supercoat grease when I run out in the middle of a frame rebuild, or dremel out my stripped rotor bolts. So, not all complaints.


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## spotthedogg (Oct 30, 2004)

MikeDee said:


> Buying components at an LBS really makes no sense. Who wants to pay double for a part?


That Sir, is a Ridiculous comment!


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## spotthedogg (Oct 30, 2004)

Riders can always seem to find the local shop when they need something fixed or want sponsorship or prize donations for events.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

mudmullet said:


> Lol, mopatodd, so that when you need advice or labor you have a place to go.


No. I don't need their advice or labor. I can get enough info on MTBR and I'm fully capable of working on my bike.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ive been lucky to find a lbs that is really good to me. I still shop online for some things ( tires, chains andncarbon bits) they know I dont have a huge budget and give me great deals. I was going to buy some crest from CRC and thought I will give the lbs a shot. Even if they were with in $15 per rim it was worth not having to guess duty costs and warranty issues. To my surprise, they came in at $2 more. I even told them thats not enough and I would like to pay more. I told them what crc was selling for and they knew I wasnt asking them to match.

Online is tricky. Crc plays it well listing high msrp and showing a good discount. But you will find unless its a clearout item, a decent lbs with a good supply chain can get close to the same prices. I buy my shows and apperal from them as they buy direct with LG and can give me better prices then I can find anywhere online, again, unless its on clerance. I think the key is finding a lbs that hasnt "given up" its hard to stay competitive but not impossible.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

spotthedogg said:


> Riders can always seem to find the local shop when they need something fixed or want sponsorship or prize donations for events.


Those few people are usually friendly with the LBS already and the shop has something to gain in both of those situations.


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## Pynchonite (Sep 2, 2013)

mopartodd said:


> No. I don't need their advice or labor. I can get enough info on MTBR and I'm fully capable of working on my bike.


That's good that you've taken the time to educate yourself, but a lot of people don't have the time, or would rather learn in person from a professional, or don't want to spend a pile of cash on a proper fork alignment guage or derailleur hanger adjuster. You personally might not need us but most other people riding bikes do.


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## KevXR (Feb 14, 2012)

Same problem for motorcycle shops.

Local shop gave 10% discount for being a club member, AMA member, breathing, having money,...

Local shop saved shipping charges.

Sometimes, I would shop online, then order through the local motorcycle shop. Often the price was close. Sometimes pay a little more to keep the shop open.

If I needed to try on helmets or shoes, well they should get the money for being there. I used their services.

Adapt or die... sometimes that means an new career that can't be offshored.


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

The manufacturers such as special-ed and trek are putting the lbs out of business. How can a shop stock a headset or bottom brackets or other items that change weekly? Chain rings? What size bcd, how many bolts, how many teeth, 1,2,3 rings, what anodized color, cinch, bolt on or whatever Scram calls it, Raceface, Shimano, Scram, Middleburn, Wolf Tooth, what group, XT, XTR, X7,X9,X0,X00,X01?... And the lbs is supposed to have it in stock for you? 
My lbs used to have Hadley hubs in their case. Now? Somebody will want a different color, axle size and width than what's in stock. 
I'd rather know that my neighbor has a job and support an American job than Zen Xu in china.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Well, when they only sell through their dealer network, that's not really the case.


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## afr0sch (Jun 9, 2013)

*LBS can be frustrating*

The LBS always frustrates me with the things they dont carry. I build my own wheels, and I can't get the spokes and nipples I want from any of them so I have to buy them online. I was recently looking for a seatpost clamp and I wanted a nice lightweight one and was willing to pay for it so I wouldn't have to order on line, but all they had were large chunks of cheap crap. No sale. No seatpost shims or 24mm crank spindle spacers. Lame.

If you buy bikes the LBS is great. Try before you buy and get service if you cant wrench yourself. 
If you build your bikes liek I do...well....mine have nothing for me.

I did buy my son's Specialized Hotrock 20" MTB from a LBS last year. I told them just to give it to me in the box and I would put it together. They said they had to put it together for liability reasons and I would have to come back in about 4 hours to pick it up. Apparently other idiots would get bikes home and F up the assembly, hurt themselves on the bike and blame the shop somehow...great world we live in now.

After picking up the bike (gas used for 2nd trip to the shop - 20 minutes away) I got it home and gave it a once over. The hubs were so tight my kid could hardly coast on it. I correctly set the hub bearing pre-load and corrected the assembly error. They were probably set that way from the factory in China, but it was the fault of the mechanic at the LBS for not really checking out the bike before sending it out the door. After all, I couldnt put it together because I might F it up and blame them.

I was pissed, and went back to them with the bike and showed them how the brakes weren't even working properly. They offered to look at the bike and I declined and told them I can do a better job.

I told the manager I was there for the benefit of everyone else that comes after me to point out that they needed to do a better job of quality assurance on their service when they send a bike out the door.
Make it perform and be as smooth as it can be, even if it is just a $400 kids bike.

They will never see me again.


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## man.cave (Nov 8, 2014)

My LBS is about an hour away. There are closer ones, but I don't usually deal with them. I do buy quit a bit online as well and my LBS knows it. He just wants me to use him for the bigger purchases and he will match the net. I spent over 12K last year (big year) at my LBS not to mention sending him 10K more in business from friends. Yes I know that is gross profit, but still a large chunk of money from my pocket. So I don't feel bad about buying online in the slightest. I think in todays society you have to do both, and the LBS shouldn't be mad about it.

My dad had an appliance and repair store in the early 80s and by early 90s he no longer sold appliances due to the fact that Circuit City etc could sell the same units for cheaper than what he could get from the manufacture. They became service only unitl the late nineties, until they sold what little was left. He was never bitter nor was I, it was just the change in the times and we didn't adapt.


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## blaklabl (Mar 14, 2011)

All I want is a helmet to try on, a few different brands, in a normal size (M/L). But no, all the "cool" LBS shops in my city either have little to no inventory of anything that I am interested in, or the others are so "big-brand" focused they only carry the manufacturers brand (Specialized, Trek). I don't ride either of those bikes and don't care to wear their helmets. I get tired of "don't have one, but we can order it". Well so can I. And pay no tax, get free shipping, and have it quicker without hearing a bunch of excuses about why it didn't show up when they said it would.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

One of my friends just went tubeless. Shop charged $30 per tire. I would say the shops are doing fine if they actually get people to pay that for a cap full of Stans and 10 min of work.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

sfgiantsfan said:


> One of my friends just went tubeless. Shop charged $30 per tire. I would say the shops are doing fine if they actually get people to pay that for a cap full of Stans and 10 min of work.


You forgot the tape and stem. Oh and factor in your rent/ mortgage, utilities etc...


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## Cinq (Jan 2, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> Man, for not much more than 100 bucks, you can get a year worth of unlimited streaming video through Netflix or Amazon Prime. Though you have to wait until a current season to end before it becomes available thru streaming services, the bang for the buck is ridiculous as compared to shelling out for DVDs. (I'm sure you already know this, but I had to mention it; I can't believe that people still shell out the same amount of money for a couple hours worth of a single movie when you can get months of almost unlimited movies and show for the same price.)


I still buy DVD's and Blue Ray disks. Just because I like to have them handy. I have lots of MTB DVD's too and keep watching them over and over. If possible, I get a Blue Ray/DVD combo box so I can watch Blue Ray at home and DVD in the car while waiting for my oldest son to have his MTB course.

As for LSB's and the initial topic: there are a few LSB's here in town and service is awful. I was interested in a new bike after riding my Giant AC2 for 12 years. I wanted to test ride a Specialized Enduro on a test day. Inscription has to be made by the LSB. I went in, asked them to help but they were too busy. A few days later, I go in again and 'the person responsible for this' wasn't in but would give me a call. A few days later, I still didn't have a call and called them myself. Needless to say, they couldn't help me.

An old friend of mine is sponsored by Specialized and when I told him my story he said I should try the store he frequents in a city about 25 miles away. I went there and the owner himself immediately helped me to secure a place for the first available test day. On the list of bikes available, there was no Enduro so I was a bit disappointed but went there anyway (a 100 mile ride). I was very pleased to see they did have the Enduro there, in exactly the size I was looking for. I had a blast testing the bike and when it started raining (more like pooring) and everybody wanted to go home, I had another ride on it and I've never had such a big grin on my face. Guess what bike I ended up ordering and where I placed my order?

The fun thing is that I sometimes see the owner of the local LBS on my home track. I can't wait to see his face when I meet him next time on my new ride and I will be happy to explain to him why he lost me as a customer.

On another occasion when I was looking for a 20" bike for my son, I called another LBS to ask what they had in store. They were supposed to have a 20" Giant bike that could interest us. So I head over there with my son only to find out that they can't find the bike that according to the computer has to be in somewhere. Another missed opportunity. While continuing to look for a 20" bike we also went to a store that told us to have a 20" model in stock only to arrive and find out they had the 24" version, which obviously was way too large.

Kind regards,

Clemens


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## HitmenOnlyInc (Jul 20, 2012)

sfgiantsfan said:


> One of my friends just went tubeless. Shop charged $30 per tire. I would say the shops are doing fine if they actually get people to pay that for a cap full of Stans and 10 min of work.


If your friend wanted to do it himself and didn't know a thing about setting up wheels tubeless it would cost him more.

Stan's NoTubes Flow Tubeless System > Components > Tires and Tubes > Tubeless kits | Jenson USA

Nearly $70 for the Stan's system plus the trial and error of a first timer. I think $60 is reasonable. I wouldn't pay it, but someone not willing to give it a try...reasonable.

Value is what you are willing to pay.


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## BigDweeb (Dec 2, 2005)

Flucod said:


> Fantastic first post, you sure are the greatest person in the history of the universe. Thanks for gracing us with your fine writings.


What was wrong with his post?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

LBSs have stopped stocking up b/c folks buy online...its a destructive cycle. I went to a LBS today and found EVERYTHING I needed to get my tandem up and running...score! I could have saved $30 going to Amazon but I would have waited 1 day...not worth it. Some shops keep inventory, some don't. Those that don't...well...they won't be around long!


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## jman4201 (Dec 10, 2006)

*It's not all theLBS or consumers fault....*

I put some of the blame on the industry itself. The multitude of tire sizes, stem sizes, pedal choices, brands, boutique, high end and low end. I also look at the prices and realize the industry is pricing many of the local riders with a family out of the hobby. LBS's have to stock beach cruisers and BMX parts because that's what they sell and those are the customers coming to get repairs. The fact that it takes a small loan to even get a decent mountain bike and that some of the nice higher end bikes cost more than a used car or motorcycle and it's no wonder the LBS's can't keep going. I am a husband and a father of four on a government salary. I have a mountain bike and a road bike. One needed a loan to buy and the other. Required me to sell off my entire guitar collection to get and even then it was demo bike heavily discounted. When it breaks or needs maintenance I generally can't afford it and the bike sits in the garage for several months while. I save up money for parts and labor. In the end I don't ride, fall out of shape and get fed up with the whole industry. I go for short hikes and walks because it's cheaper.


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## Kronk (Jan 4, 2004)

BigDweeb said:


> What was wrong with his post?


Didn't you know? People here only accept comments from those with high post counts and lots of rep points. No matter how rich the content, it could be a planted post or a fake account, therefore the poster gets flack.


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## BigDweeb (Dec 2, 2005)

Kronk said:


> Didn't you know? People here only accept comments from those with high post counts and lots of rep points. No matter how rich the content, it could be a planted post or a fake account, therefore the poster gets flack.


Yeah, I knew that. I just have a short fuse for 12 yr olds today.


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## afr0sch (Jun 9, 2013)

For the record I had an account on mtbr.com back in 2001, but due to inactivity it was deleted during a site migration. I was on hiatus from MTB at the time anyway.

Thanks for sticking up for my first post in years fellas!


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## unabashedlypro (Nov 14, 2014)

For all the LBS owners who ***** about "business being taken from them by (insert anything here...)" could possibly take a look at some of the shops around the country that are absolutely killing it and maybe take not and...like many have said...adjust.

I worked in the bike industry long enough to know that bike shop owners are not exactly the most business savvy bunch out there...and are very rarely forward thinking or innovative.


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## unabashedlypro (Nov 14, 2014)

Flucod said:


> Fantastic first post, you sure are the greatest person in the history of the universe. Thanks for gracing us with your fine writings.


Even I think that was pretty uncalled for, and I am known around here for saying stupid/hurtful/insensitive/out of line things.


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## mellowdave (Feb 3, 2010)

Flamingtaco said:


> My LBS just purchased an adjoining space and is spending tens of thousands to restructure and incorporate the area as the new showroom, doubling their storefront area in year 3. Located on a corner lot on the main drag.
> 
> You can't just be a good bike shop, you have to be a good business. There are thousands of riders that want to open their own bike shop every year, but how many of them know how to run a business?


THIS is the most factual statement on this entire thread.


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## man.cave (Nov 8, 2014)

This is also true for any business


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

Pynchonite said:


> That's good that you've taken the time to educate yourself, but a lot of people don't have the time, or would rather learn in person from a professional, or don't want to spend a pile of cash on a proper fork alignment guage or derailleur hanger adjuster. You personally might not need us but most other people riding bikes do.


I agree there will always be people who would rather not take the time to learn something new or gets their hands dirty. Shops need to find a way to address the internet price differences on parts to be competitive in the market. They can't just thumb their noses and assume everyone is going to utilize the LBS when there may be a better alternative for a lot of the customer base.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

BigDweeb said:


> What was wrong with his post?


Seriously.


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## Crosstown Stew (Aug 16, 2008)

I really hate to see LBS going out of business. They often employee dedicated cycling enthusist, support local rides, teams, and races. There is a lot outside of just selling bikes most shops engage in to help promote their name and business. I don't want to see that disappear, however there is so much supply of low cost parts and information on the internet almost anyone can do simple research and get what they need for a better price. In the end to survive shops must either reduce their operating overhead and compete as having the best wrenching in town, or they have to earn loyality by supporting the local cycling communities and spurning growth in the sport. Otherwise there is no incentive to buy local other than trying to be commercially ethical, but in today's world, ethics and money don't really go together.


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## ProEdgeBiker (Jun 24, 2004)

An LBS with no E-Commerce cannot stay competitive in this day and age.


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## River19 (Jul 3, 2007)

I agree with the thought process that it is adapt or die in the retail world, ask Blockbuster about what happens when you don't.

I also agree the industry itself with all its various standards, part groups etc. has become very difficult for a small shop to support.

I still do some LBS buying but only if I am overpaying by a small $ vs. online.

The whole "i don't have it but I can order it" does nothing for me unless it is "I don't have it, I can order it and I'll prices match and have it shipped to your house".....otherwise I can do the same thing for less.

I don't feel it is my responsibility to pay $150 for something I can get online for $90 just so I can support the latte drinking fixie hipster you have working in the back.....(most of whom are decent people but that doesn't work for my stereotyping for effect here  ...)

The stores that have adapted are the ones that will be standing in the end just like all other industries.

I think the people that really get screwed are the ones that are entry level bike buyers that need the advice etc. but they don't generate enough $ to keep the lights on most times.

Tough story, but it is typical retail and industry evolution.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your shop.

Can we stop beating this dead horse.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

ProEdgeBiker said:


> An LBS with no E-Commerce cannot stay competitive in this day and age.


Uh, how does an LBS with e-commerce compete with Amazon, Jenson, Competitive Cyclist, eBay?

Just curious as to your thought process there. Yes, they can list things on eBay and Amazon, but it's a very basic numbers game which favors the large distributors and on eBay in particular, the grey market.

The only unique e-commerce a LBS can do is reselling something they've made, such as wheels. But even that isn't really unique, and there are tons of custom wheels already on eBay. Plus if you're not making wheels for each bid, there's a very real chance you can get stuck with some inventory when trends change.


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## GelatiCruiser (Oct 11, 2012)

A lot of LBS compete with online sales because it seems the majority of what they stock and sell are entry level/"first-timer" bikes. They move a decent amoun tof stock, make some cash and service their more "demanding" (time consuming) customers. 
I asked my LBS if they'd be pissed if I ordered a part online (fork) and took it in for them to install. The owner asked the part and price and said "sounds like a great deal, I can't touch it. Bring it in and we'd be happy to install it for you." I did and paid ~$40 to have installed...and tipped them $15. I can see how this sort of nickel and diming could hurt their bottom line, but they're certainly not hurting for business and I refer people to them because they're honest (don't push higher end products) and they take care of people. 
I felt bad "showrooming" them a bit, but I buy stuff from them that's more expensive than if I ordered online because I like them...and I bought the bike there and want them to be around as long as possible so I can get my free lifetime tune ups!
long and short of it is, most people don't care if something REALLY "fits" them, they just want a good deal and don't care if that comes at the cost of going out of business for a local shop.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

mopartodd said:


> I agree there will always be people who would rather not take the time to learn something new or gets their hands dirty. Shops need to find a way to address the internet price differences on parts to be competitive in the market. They can't just thumb their noses and assume everyone is going to utilize the LBS when there may be a better alternative for a lot of the customer base.


While I agree with you in general, you make it sound like people who have their bikes serviced are dainty or scared to learn. With a good shop that's ingrained in the community, that doesn't really hold true. At least not in my experience. Most people I know who take their bikes in have repair stands, a work space, tools, and a good understanding of bike repair. Many of them work in trades, so their hands are pretty dirty. They guys who work on our bikes are pros in their 20s and 30s who do it because they love it, and no matter how competent I am, they'll always be better.

But as I've said before, my LBS isn't typical, and what they do won't work everywhere. They specialize in service and custom builds. They don't sell complete bikes, so there are no racks of bikes along the wall. Instead, they have Knolly, Transition, and Yeti frames hanging among works from local artists. There's a DJ booth and they have regular social events and parties. It know that sounds snobby, but they can get just as excited about working on a late 60s Schwinn as building a new Knolly. It succeeds because they don't have the cooler than you shop rat attitude, and they provide good service in a pleasant environment.

A lot of shops are limited by their distribution and tiered pricing structures from the suppliers. My LBS can't buy Shimano brake pads for what I can buy them for on Amazon, for example.


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## unabashedlypro (Nov 14, 2014)

ProEdgeBiker said:


> An LBS with no E-Commerce cannot stay competitive in this day and age.


The most successful shops I have seen in the past 4 years have no ecommerce presence, but a great tangible presence with bunch rides, parties, community...you know, the stuff you can't offer online


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## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

Procter said:


> Relevant:
> 
> The End of Work - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


There'll be tons of computer science jobs, until/unless AGI takes off, then who Tf knows...


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

juan_speeder said:


> There'll be tons of computer science jobs, until/unless AGI takes off, then who Tf knows...


Yeah but there will never be enough computer science, engineering, and general tech jobs to make up for the loss in menial jobs. Each computer scientist obsoletes many more general administrative workers. I'm not advocating reversing the course of technology (I'm an engineer myself), I'm just saying that its a societal problem we'll have to confront at some point, there will not be enough stuff for most people to do.

Let's take for example, the automated checkout stands in the grocery stores these days.

I would guess the engineering team that designed and built those machines is probably 100-200 people or so (mechanical engineers, programmers, project managers...). Let's be generous and assume those are in the US (reality is they are probably partially overseas). Then, to manufacture them in factories, let's say, I don't know, maybe 1000, at most 2000 people (counting all the parts, chips, motherboards, etc.)? Let's say it took a year to design and then several thousand of them were built over 5 years. So the number of (tech) jobs added over several years by designing and manufacturing automated checkout is at most several thousand, and, most of those factory jobs are in China by the way.

Now, the typical grocery store has 6 of those things now, with one person managing them. So, if you're considering peak time (of let's say, the busiest 8 hours of the day), you've eliminated 5 checkers, so therefore you've eliminated 5 full time jobs. How many grocery stores in the US? My town has 30,000 people and has 2 drug stores and 3 grocery stores. We have one Home depot that has them too. Some other retailers that might have them don't, like my TJ max, Best Buy and Petco don't, for some reason, but let's assume it stays at that rough ratio: that's 6 stores per town of 30K who eliminated 5 checkers. So, for the entire country of 300M people, you'd have approximately 60K grocery or drug stores or big retail stores installing automated checkouts, each losing 5 jobs, therefore you've lost approximately 300K full time checkers right there. That may seem like a lot, 300K jobs lost in a country of 300M, but, remember retail workers total 4M, or about 3.3% of US workers. Its totally reasonable to think that automated checkouts could eliminate 10% of those. And, that's with only 6 automated checkstands in the stores now. What happens when entire stores start going to automated checkouts?

Ok, well you might say, what about maintaining those machines. So, let's add in maintenance - let's say they require 1 service call every 3 mos, and that service call is 1 hour long. So, the maintenance for 6 machines per store X 60K stores is 360,000 hours / 3mos, or ~600-1000 maintenance workers for the US.

We're still at a jobs deficit of at least 290K jobs lost or something, which are not made up by tech jobs.

This is all just napkin math, take it with a grain of salt, but you get the idea: Every engineer/computer scientist etc obsoletes many more jobs than they create for themselves.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Procter said:


> Every engineer/computer scientist etc obsoletes many more jobs than they create for themselves.


I think this would really only apply to the automation industry.
Without engineers, nobody's making or building ****.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> I think this would really only apply to the automation industry.
> Without engineers, nobody's making or building ****.


Huh? Its way more than just automotive. Look at the example I gave for grocery self-checkout. I could name many more:

- On page 2 we discussed VCRs -> DVDs -> Online movies, eliminating lots of jobs. Similar situation with music, and books: Digital delivery obviates the need for lots of humans. Some of those losses, like loss of shipping/logistics jobs, would have been offset by growth in ecommerce retail, but, the manufacturing side, and the retail side, are gone. Blockbuster is gone. Tower Records is gone. Warehouse Music is gone. Borders books is gone. Sam Goody is gone. 
- ATMs, and later online banking, eliminated thousands of bank teller jobs, many more than the engineers it takes to build and keep those working
- Online services for Insurance, Travel, Finance (Stock/Bond/EFT/Mutual Fund Trading), all eliminated thousands of jobs as well. I can sign up for auto-insurance or change my coverage without talking to a person. I can book a hotel, flight, taxi and car rental without talking to anyone. I can sign up for cable and internet without talking to a person. Even phone calls require a fraction of the human effort they used to (press 2 for balance)
- Email, and a shift towards online marketing instead of expensive junk mail, has or will eliminate thousands of USPS jobs (more than the sys admins it takes to run all those email servers). Some of that was offset by growth in shipping/logistics for ecommerce but not all. 
- Bitcoin (or its successor if kinks become too obstructive) might significantly reduce the need for large, expensive, human-run financial institutions at all, we'll see where that goes
- Online sales by large retailers require less humans for the same amount of sales, than do small store retail. And its accelerating: Amazon has started to use robotic automation in its warehouses to pick/pack/ship. And they're experimenting with drones for delivery. 
- Most manufacturing is trending towards significant robotic automation, requiring less humans at every step

It goes further: 
- Self-driving cars are not that far off, probably 20 years away at mass-scale
- The parking lot shuttle at many airports is completely automated now, and, much of mass-transit will go this route in the next 20 years as well

None of these examples required as many engineers to build/maintain, as they eliminated in service/retail workers.

Engineers even trend towards automating themselves out of jobs as well. Luckily, in most cases, those engineers go on to invent new things that are sources of income for themselves and others - HP, IBM and ATT mass layoffs helped spawn newer generations of silicon valley innovation like Cisco, Sun and Oracle, etc. But: 
- Software is getting cheaper and easier to write. Sun, Microsoft, HP, IBM, Cisco are all down from their peak employees. At my company (ecommerce) it definitely takes fewer software engineers to produce the same amount of functionality, due to the advent of application development frameworks which simplify the development process significantly. Microsoft is laying off 18000, 15000 of which are in factory (Nokia). I'm not sure if those will be offset by gains in other manufacturing or not. 
- 3D Printing is just getting started - prototyping and making plastic parts used to require machining a mold and pouring plastic. There were 2 humans in that process: Designer, and maker. Now it can be done by the designer themselves, without any human labor, from thousands of miles away. Further automation will reduce human intervention for most manufacturing. 3D Printing for metals is in its infancy but will significantly expand.


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## bucksaw87 (Jun 18, 2007)

Attitude is a HUGE part. I don't like being guilt-tripped by LBS's for buying (cheaper) parts elsewhere, which was incredibly prevalent when I was in college. As a customer, I should not have the privilege of shopping at your store, you as a shop should be thankful that I chose your store over 2 other stores in town, or any number of (cheaper) online sources. Call me entitled or whatever, but in this day and age, the customer has more power than ever before...and one of the other shops in my college town said something that still resonates with me, and even rang true when I was working retail a few years ago: [The shop] can't control where a customer buys a part; the shop's job is to be there to support and help the customer along the way.

...Which brings me to my next gripe. Working on my road bike, I bought most of the parts online. The parts and jobs I couldn't do myself, I turned to several LBS's for. The shop that installed my headset flat out told me that I was in over my head, that I couldn't do the work, and they discourage customers from doing it themselves. Even buying online, according to that guy, the cost savings wouldn't be worth the headache of DIY'ing a bike, and he could sell me a comparably-equipped bike for $1,700. I told him that I'd like to learn to do my own wrenching, and he scoffed at the idea. I've been in that shop exactly one time since I picked up the bike, and that's only because they're the only shop in town open on Sunday that carried the tube that I needed (for a rather hefty price, BTW).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Procter said:


> Huh? Its way more than just automotive.


I said 'automation' not 'automotive'.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> I said 'automation' not 'automotive'.


Whoops sorry, epic rant based on misreading


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

This isn't the first time people have developed processes that eliminate jobs.

I think it's a bummer to have one's job get eliminated. But it's been happening since the invention of trade. Specialization eliminates the role of subsistent farmer. Now half the village has to do something else. Ultimately, the same group of people creates more wealth and life gets a little easier.

From up close, it may not look great. But I think that we have easier lives than our great grandparents did in 1915. As a society, we can decide we want to make the landing softer for people who need to find a different way to contribute. Or not.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

Well, I suppose that is one interpretation, but it's the same with cars, home repairs or even changing a watch battery. Some people just don't care to dive into some things and that's okay, because this is the basic customer base for the LBS. What I said was not meant to be demeaning in any way.

If the LBS wants to survive and do better than serving the above customer base, they need to find a way to appeal to the do-it-yourself folks with competitive pricing on parts.


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## man.cave (Nov 8, 2014)

bucksaw87 said:


> Attitude is a HUGE part. I don't like being guilt-tripped by LBS's for buying (cheaper) parts elsewhere, which was incredibly prevalent when I was in college. As a customer, I should not have the privilege of shopping at your store, you as a shop should be thankful that I chose your store over 2 other stores in town, or any number of (cheaper) online sources. Call me entitled or whatever, but in this day and age, the customer has more power than ever before...and one of the other shops in my college town said something that still resonates with me, and even rang true when I was working retail a few years ago: [The shop] can't control where a customer buys a part; the shop's job is to be there to support and help the customer along the way.
> 
> ...Which brings me to my next gripe. Working on my road bike, I bought most of the parts online. The parts and jobs I couldn't do myself, I turned to several LBS's for. The shop that installed my headset flat out told me that I was in over my head, that I couldn't do the work, and they discourage customers from doing it themselves. Even buying online, according to that guy, the cost savings wouldn't be worth the headache of DIY'ing a bike, and he could sell me a comparably-equipped bike for $1,700. I told him that I'd like to learn to do my own wrenching, and he scoffed at the idea. I've been in that shop exactly one time since I picked up the bike, and that's only because they're the only shop in town open on Sunday that carried the tube that I needed (for a rather hefty price, BTW).


I messed up putting a head set in about 20 years ago with a 2x and hammer. But have learned since. I would have walked out of there if some dude was looking down on me. How else do u learn. I have ended up servicing 12 different bikes and don't get paided, although the folks have helped be procure specialty tools and I love doing it. I just need to build a wheel. I bought the nice parks truing stand but have only true with it. That is just something I haven't had the time to do. Oh and BTW my lbs knows it. He gives me advice if and when I need it. He even will swap warranty parts without having to have the whole bike.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

N


man.cave said:


> I messed up putting a head set in about 20 years ago with a 2x and hammer. But have learned since. I would have walked out of there if some dude was looking down on me. How else do u learn. I have ended up servicing 12 different bikes and don't get paided, although the folks have helped be procure specialty tools and I love doing it. I just need to build a wheel. I bought the nice parks truing stand but have only true with it. That is just something I haven't had the time to do. Oh and BTW my lbs knows it. He gives me advice if and when I need it. He even will swap warranty parts without having to have the whole bike.


You comment on hammer and 2x4 i still apllicable. I went to my local Performance back in September to see if they had a press tool for a 1.5 and their wrench told me he never uses te press tools, just hammer and wood--and this at a shop where you would think they could have those tools. If it aint broke, dont fix it...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

cjsb said:


> I went to my local Performance back in September to see if they had a press tool for a 1.5 and their wrench told me he never uses te press tools, just hammer and wood--and this at a shop where you would think they could have those tools.


Scary, did he also do tune-ups with the bike upside down on the ground?


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## man.cave (Nov 8, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Scary, did he also do tune-ups with the bike upside down on the ground?


That's funny, I even have a headset press which dubs for a bottom bracket press.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Scary, did he also do tune-ups with the bike upside down on the ground?


What?!?!?! There's nothing wrong with that!!!

LOL


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

cjsb said:


> N
> 
> You comment on hammer and 2x4 i still apllicable. I went to my local Performance back in September to see if they had a press tool for a 1.5 and their wrench told me he never uses te press tools, just hammer and wood--and this at a shop where you would think they could have those tools. If it aint broke, dont fix it...


I have done this many times at home because I don't have a press, and am too cheap to buy a tool that I may only use once every 2-3 years. What kind of shop doesn't use on though? The kind I would never take my bike to for anything.


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## Oldfatbaldguy (Nov 4, 2010)

Interesting thread, and has taken many twists and turns over the last couple of weeks.

One thought that seems to pop up is the desire of most, including most in the bike industry, to resist change. Even in small ways.

I own, and wrench on, my own automobiles. For parts, I often shop online...but most auto enthusiasts know that this really can mean you're checking stock at the local Pep Boys or NAPA store; Not in stock? Will be tomorrow!

I have floated this idea past two or three people I've met from QBP, including a chance contact out riding who works IT for them. The IT guy rolled his eyes...

Apparently the IT horsepower to make it work is only a small portion of the problems to solve. Some LBS's would hop on board immediately, for obvious reasons; instead of pestering the shop for parts, customers could order online, in their underwear, at 1:00 am. and pick up the goods in a day or two. Everybody wins.

But other shops would balk at what would appear to be an attempt by QBP to muscle in on their business plan. Think about that for a minute. The world is full of people who may not be able to see the future, but they are afraid of it anyway. Its all about control.

NAPA can make it work because NAPA licenses local dealers and supplies them with the outline of a business plan, a solid supply chain, and national advertizing. Erik's bikes in MN, REI, a few others are getting close, but economics of scale are still at work hindering their ability to truly take advantage of a forward-thinking business model. To truly take advantage, they might want to consider central stocking and intra-logistics, a tech training plan, a continuous-improvement/six sigma internal business model, etc.

Considered in this light, the LBS model is dying, committing suicide. Or, it has a bright future. The local entepreneur model is going away...unless he or she wants to franchise to a forward-thinking model. 

Whom shall we support in the future? Independance has always had a cost.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Oldfatbaldguy said:


> Interesting thread, and has taken many twists and turns over the last couple of weeks.
> 
> One thought that seems to pop up is the desire of most, including most in the bike industry, to resist change. Even in small ways.
> 
> ...


So you're saying... who's going to be internet walmart, and get on it wouldja? :lol:

And FWIW, independence has a cost, and so does slavery.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Procter said:


> Whoops sorry, epic rant based on misreading


 Been there.

Your examples are good though as far as how automation engineering affects things.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Scary, did he also do tune-ups with the bike upside down on the ground?


It was surprising but I can't be too critical. I work on my own bike and have this "awesome" work area. Dimly lit, crappy single car garage filed with crap. My work bench is an old TV dinner tray that I got over ten years ago at Costco.

Yesterday i did fork seals and oil. When I got to the point of pressing in the new seals, I just could muster the "apeshit" strength needed and said "there has to be a better way." Looked around in the kitchen and again Costco come through. These 10 inch tall plastic tumblers were perfect for pressing in the seals.

I can't wait to move out of this place and get a two car garage and decent work area...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

cjsb said:


> It was surprising but I can't be too critical.


I think you can, and should be critical in that situation. I appreciate a good Macgyver (when appropriate) as much as anyone and more than most, but a good shop should have the best tools available and employ pros who know how to use them. That's what you're paying for.


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## menusk (Jun 27, 2009)

hell if I owned a lbs i would set up customer use computer stations for ordering online parts. With access to only the most popular online bike parts websites. 
This can always be changed to customer need
So if a customer came in and I didnt have the part they can order it there. 
With the only requirement is that if they do order it there it would need to be shipped there and installed by us. Hell even if I had the part I would match the price even at a loss if we agreed to have it installed there. You could always replenish your stock by buying that cheaper one but you've already made your profit on installation so it's ok and keeps the inventory flowing. Every time a customer comes in it's an opportunity to sell a snack or an immediate use item. And people can track their part online so they will know when to bring their bike in. And honestly the only parts not in stock would be high end parts you wouldn't want to stock anyway. 

Being scared of the Internet will only lead to failure. 

And since I neither own a business or a computer take any of my ideas with a grain of salt. 

Maybe I'll start a bike app that lets you schedule a mobile bike mechanic to come to your house or trailside when you need them. These mechanics may even be on the trail since the app help could be location based For a small fee it's all doable. 

Man I'm full of b.s ideas today


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## gsa103 (Sep 1, 2014)

mopartodd said:


> Well, I suppose that is one interpretation, but it's the same with cars, home repairs or even changing a watch battery. Some people just don't care to dive into some things and that's okay, because this is the basic customer base for the LBS. What I said was not meant to be demeaning in any way.
> 
> If the LBS wants to survive and do better than serving the above customer base, they need to find a way to appeal to the do-it-yourself folks with competitive pricing on parts.


Why should a LBS do this? If I look around my area the bike shops that seem to do well are shops with boutique brands catering to high income customers, or beginner friendly shops carrying more entry level bikes.

The problem with appealing DIY is that by definition we're cheap. We're not going to spend a lot of money at the shop regardless of parts price. We might buy a few parts from them, but we're not going to be using much shop time. Given the massive numbers of assorted small parts, is it really worth the retail space for to have XTR Ti resin brake pads for three generation old XTR disc brakes?

To a large part, the problem is that the supply chain is too general and too locked in. If you compare to the automotive industry, most garages only deal with a few brands to ease inventory expectation. The parts situations might actually get better if you had Shimano-only or SRAM-only shops. After all, if you have a Ford, do you care how the Honda garage operates?


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## turbogrover (Dec 4, 2005)

gsa103 said:


> ...To a large part, the problem is that the supply chain is too general and too locked in. If you compare to the automotive industry, most garages only deal with a few brands to ease inventory expectation. The parts situations might actually get better if you had Shimano-only or SRAM-only shops. After all, if you have a Ford, do you care how the Honda garage operates?


That's actually a very good idea, except for the fact that the volume isnt there in the USA to support manufacturer specific shops, and the bike manufacturers themselves aren't even loyal to a specific drivetrain manufacturer.

I think the local LBS needs to focus on service, installation, and repairs to make money, and have complete bikes available for sale only as a secondary means of income. Like menusk said, even if you don't make the money on the part up front, you'll make money on the installation and service....and later on the repair.

The local LBS needs to rethink it's business model based on how the internet affects sales, not curse the internet as it's failure.


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## Game_Throne (Apr 12, 2015)

I love the _concept_ of the "local bike shop" but the reality is often far uglier than the norman rockwell or "cheers" rosy picture that some might have.

As far as "quick turnaround," that's often not a reality at lbs's, either. I brought in my road bike for a tune up, and was promised a quick turnaround over the weekend.

It turned out there was a week delay (the never bothered to call to notify me), and while they did a good job overall, they also left some not so pretty scratches on the bike as well.

Another bike shop did meet their promised quick turn around for a tuneup, but returned the bike dirty, and did about half the work they promised. This latter shop is very well reviewed online, but they hired a new mechanic who is not very skilled or thorough.

From what I can tell, the mechanical work at an lbs is often very rushed and sloppy.


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## CHINOTAKER (Nov 1, 2012)

I feel bad for the LBS but I can't justify paying double or even triple for something just for having it now (+ installation) instead of 5 days later when it gets delivered in my house (+free/me installation).

I would love to support LBS's more. But having said that, my clients (not in MTB industry) wouldn't work with me if I charge them double for the same thing they can get elsewhere.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

makes sense all around. this is what happens when you don't attract skilled workers with a living wage, benefits, and a career path that is not a dead end. learn how to do it yourself or pay a mechanic what he or she is worth to do the job right.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

I use this guy when I need a mechanic http://wheelpeddler.com/. He has a mobile service in a trailer and comes to your house to do the work. He makes a living at it. I use him for stuff I don't have the tools for or more complex jobs I don't want to do. I usually supply him with parts but some jobs he has to order parts to get the job done.


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## BikeBro (Nov 13, 2012)

I was recently in a shop to grab a freehub to cassette spacer for my road bike as I was installing a new groupset. Since I had just loaned a few of my tools out to a buddy I knew it would be a few days before I could take my old cassette off. I was quoted $15 to remove the lockring. That kind of pricing for something that literally takes 10 seconds is just ridiculous, and that kind of outrageous pricing is something I see all the time at my LBSs. Its really to the point of just being comical at times..


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> I use this guy when I need a mechanic Wheel Peddler :: Home. He has a mobile service in a trailer and comes to your house to do the work. He makes a living at it. I use him for stuff I don't have the tools for or more complex jobs I don't want to do. I usually supply him with parts but some jobs he has to order parts to get the job done.


Cool! Dude has been doing it for ten years. He has quite a setup and I would defintiely use a guy and service like that.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Flucod said:


> Seems fair price to me, you are paying for convenience. I did my front brakes on my van for $25, shop wanted $400, only took me 15 minutes. Why doesn't the car industry get the same scrutiny as the bike business?


Perhaps because this is a bicycle forum.

$15 doesn't seem excessive


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Try to get Walmart to remove it for less.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Flucod said:


> Seems fair price to me, you are paying for convenience. I did my front brakes on my van for $25, shop wanted $400, only took me 15 minutes. Why doesn't the car industry get the same scrutiny as the bike business?


Well for that price you got crap pads (ASE TECH), and think it took a few beers if "it only took 15 mins" 

Seriously though: Whining about lbs prices is childish and ignorant. They got bills to pay and need to eat too. Just like the guys running an auto shop. Difference is auto shop equipment costs 1000x more. 1000-1500 in tools and equip is it for a shop (even going full park everything, its no more than 2k). The tool is the top top drawer of my box cost more than that. I decent auto shop has a minimum of 50000 is tools and equipment. Like that one of 3 lifts in your local costs more than all the tools and equipment in your avg lbs combined.

Plus you dont have to be any smarter than mediocre mechanical skills to work on a bicycle. My 9yr old can work on any of our bikes no problem. Pop the hood on my car and he goes "ya screw that". The knowledge and skills needed by the auto shop is 100x that of a bike shop.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Was going to type something out, but your reply after reading the hole thing, that's not mechanic, that's wrench turning. 15yrs as ASE tech here, I do alot more than change brakes. Mechanic for mechanic, bikes take nothing compared to automotive. If it takes you so long on bike brakes your doing it wrong.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Lmao, then why have all my brakes worked flawless. 15mins on hydros to change pads, 25 or so to change and dial in bb7s. All my years theirs one thing that's matters after knowledge and skills, speed. Faster you are, more money you make. Faster I do maintaince or repairs to my bikes, the faster im back on them. As for "doing it wrong" was a smart a** comment. I just have proper tools so I can do whatever I need more quickly than you standard Allen wrenchs.


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