# Ceramic Coating



## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

The fine folks at STB Performance Coatings just returned my sample piece with a satin clear coat. I'm really impressed at first glance. I'll be doing some scratch and rust testing in the next few days and will report back. I'm hoping this will solve the problem of just a clear coat not protecting a bare frame.

The coating is really thin so your finish work has to be nice. The sample piece I sent I made quickly because I was originally just testing a bi-lam method. It's nice to see exactly what the paint won't cover. You can see some file marks and fillet pin holes.

STB performance coatings~Home


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

I'm getting ready to send him a couple of frames, I'm eager to hear what you think, Joel.


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

Joel, I'm so pumped you found a new clearcoat. That looks awesome! I always love how you can see the raw material and true craftsmanship of the piece. You're attention to detail will be amplified if this coating goes on an entire frame. Waiting to hear results!


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

I know about cassettes and chainrings being ceramic coated to add to their longevity, and have often wondered about the ability to do a whole frame.

One thing I'm concerned about: How flexible is the ceramic coating? Frames flex. If the ceramic cracks at the flex points and let in moisture, it would be quite the PITA to strip the ceramic to do a repair...


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Looks great. I want to follow this thread seeing where it goes.

Would love to see the piece after some abusive testing. If you want access to accelerated corrosive environment let me know. Would be glad to drop it in a salt fog chamber.


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## santacruzflyer (Feb 7, 2010)

I am wondering about durability. I had a couple sets of cranks ceramic coated and it scratched and wore off easily. Does the clear coat make it more durable to wear?


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## tamen00 (Mar 10, 2004)

I am wondering about durability as well. I had a couple of sets of cranks done and the finish wore off/scratched very easily. They also stained (the cranks were white-ish) from chain-lube/dirt/etc and were impossible to clean. This was a couple of years ago though and things may have changed. 

Also, if the cranks were not white - might have made a difference too.


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

Eric/Joel:
What's their cost for a frame? I have a frame that I wouldn't mind having clearcoated.


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## j.m. (Mar 13, 2011)

Francis Buxton said:


> Eric/Joel:
> What's their cost for a frame? I have a frame that I wouldn't mind having clearcoated.


It'd be best to contact the company directly as I'm sure they have their own specific prep work and surface condition requirements. These guys would likely be coating a group of frames at once, reducing the cost per item for both parties. STB might not even be set up to do just one frame at a time.

Jon


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Joel,

I think you'll be disappointed.

Ceramic does an excellent job at increasing scratch resistance and durability over paint, however, it is not an impervious finish. It is subject to the same wear that any coating is and does have it's failure parameters.

Unlike powder, the ceramic seems to bind at a tighter tolerance to the surface as long as it is well prepared and cleaned, but will still oxidise in scratches and wear areas on steel, one of the reasons I plate my cranks and then ceramic coat. 

Folks just need to accept the fact that there is no holy grail for clear coating steel that will provide a durable, rust resistant finish for the life of the product. I tell my customers to enjoy the clear finish for a few years, and when it starts to look bad, we'll repaint it and give her a new look.

rody


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

j.m. said:


> It'd be best to contact the company directly as I'm sure they have their own specific prep work and surface condition requirements. These guys would likely be coating a group of frames at once, reducing the cost per item for both parties. STB might not even be set up to do just one frame at a time.
> 
> Jon


From my conversations with Roger, the owner, I think he will be doing them one at a time. He also told me he can mask and do fades or camos. The two frames I'm sending are going to be different colors, and he didn't sound like he had any issue with that. He is just excited to start doing frames, and welcomed the opportunity. I hope they turn out as good as the samples he sent me. 
BTW, he also did the faux carbon fiber finish on the cranks for one of Funk's NAHBS bikes.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Rody said:


> Joel,
> 
> Folks just need to accept the fact that there is no holy grail for clear coating steel that will provide a durable, rust resistant finish for the life of the product. I tell my customers to enjoy the clear finish for a few years, and when it starts to look bad, we'll repaint it and give her a new look.
> 
> rody


Thanks Rody, Great info and exactly what I have found as well.


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

Test results here: Ceramic Coating Test | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Please see notes on the pic.

This only makes me question whether my next frame will get the clear or if I'll go with a more durable colored coating.

-Joel


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

Hmmm, interesting. That Tactical Grey color they have sounds sweet. Thanks for posting results Joel!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Sure would like to see some pics of a frame done in the green black or blue black...


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## whydomylegshurt? (Jul 28, 2004)

When you performed the 24hr salt water bath was the part fully submerged? If so I would repeat the test by soaking the part in salt water then air drying it. Repeat a soak/dry cycle once a day for a couple weeks and see what happens.


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

*New Test*

RD sent me some new samples and as he predicted the opaque color finish did a lot better.

After 3 days in salt water there was no visible rust in the scratches.

-Joel


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

One of the things Roger told me about the coatings is that the ceramic particles bond to the metal in such a way that you won't get rust trails under the coating like you will with clear paint of powder. It will rust where it was scratched, but it won't spread. I should have my two frames back from STB in a couple of days and I'll post some pics and a first impression report.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

For the scratches to show rust you would have to scratch deep enough to get into the metal itself. If you were to wear the coating through to where you see metal you still wouldn't have rust since all the micro pores in the metals surface would still have ceramic filling them.

Thanks Joel for testing the coating again. The clear just isn't on par with the other coatings that I apply. Question: did you soak the piece in salt water for 3 days without removing it? To test for corrosive protection it needs to be subjected to salt and air. The ceramic I use has been tested for corrosive protection properties after 3500 hrs a 1 ml thick coated steel plate showed no deterioration of the ceramic or corrosion of the steel plate.


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## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

Isn't this $800 to get just the frame ceramic coated? Or the frame and fork?


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

OK.. I'm no bike builder, but I have been using Ceramic coated steel in construction for yrs.. it's a great idea as we've used ceramic coatings on framing and other things exposed to the weather, but the #1 thing I noticed that the coating is great at is Deck Screws,,, Ceramic coated screws just seem to last 3x's as long as galvanized.

those tests on the piece look great, but one test you might want to think about is a long thinner pipe/rod.. something like the rear stays. The one issue I've found with ceramic coatings is they are very rigid/brittle. any time the metal flexes beyond a certain point the coating cracks and flakes off...  the rear stays may not flex all that much but I'd probably give is a test??

reason I brought it up is we had a steel reinforcement plate for a beam coated for an exterior beam (25ft long, by 5/8 think by 9 1/2 inches tall) and 2 of the 3 cracked the finish trying to get them installed... ya, it's a hugh, heavy, flexy beam plate and I'm guessing the bike frame isn't going to bend/flex anywhere near the amount those did on a crane pick... but I can see the area around the joint of the BB and the chain stays cracking/flaking over time...? Also noticed it on screws that get bent or hit something in the wood and get "twisted" that the coating flakes off... 

not trying to discourage as I think if it works it's a friggin awesome idea and would look and last sweet.. just sharing info... would love to see a full frame coated.... bet it looks sweet! :thumbsup:


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

*Flexibility Test*

I was curious about the flexibility issue so a bent one of the sample pieces RD sent me. This piece started out as flat. It now shows no signs of the coating separating or failing.

-Joel


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

Flex of the coating is 180* without crack or break which is actually the point the metal itself begins to separate. This test also shows that if the coating is broken into underlying steel, rust or corrosion will not spread under the finish.

Nice test to show Joel, thanks for showing this. 

Tomllama, the product your referring used in the building trades is a urethane or epoxy paint with a ceramic in the formula for protection but it's still has the drawbacks of paint.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

crazy8 said:


> Flex of the coating is 180* without crack or break which is actually the point the metal itself begins to separate. This test also shows that if the coating is broken into underlying steel, rust or corrosion will not spread under the finish.
> 
> Nice test to show Joel, thanks for showing this.
> 
> Tomllama, the product your referring used in the building trades is a urethane or epoxy paint with a ceramic in the formula for protection but it's still has the drawbacks of paint.


ya maybe... you're probably right as the coating company came and sanded it after install and recoated with some kinda heating, inferred doodad thingy to bake it on. :skep: looks like you wont have an issue by that test!!! glad it's working out!! looks friggin sweet.. wonder if they can coat Alum with that ...? how much added weight is ther ewith it also.. (not that I'm a weight weenie but just wondering? )


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

Works as well on any metal and have ceramic that can be applied to carbon fiber and composite with very near the same performance. The coating adds 1/3 or less the weight of paint and powder. It doesn't fade, chip, crack, or peel. Is resistant to salt, solvents, acids, and UV.


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

bee said:


> Isn't this $800 to get just the frame ceramic coated? Or the frame and fork?


I'd be interested in knowing cost too for a frame and fork. This thread has made me interested but what's the cost and availability of this - common or rare to find people that do this? Powdercoaters seem pretty abundant. Why aren't builders doing this if it's so good, and lighter than paint?


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

My understanding is that a frame is $135. That's an incredible deal. I plan on getting a frame to RD as soon as I get a customer who's interested.

One reason builders may be hesitant is that the coating is pretty thin compared to powder coat so your work better be tight or it'll show.

-Joel


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Another question. This one regarding the application process. I've noticed on your site that you show cassettes that have been coated. How about freewheels and such? How do you handle a situation where you have a mechanism involved? Disassembly or masking?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

RD, can powder be appied over the ceramic finish if I don't like the look?


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

jeff, If a component can be disassembled it will be in order to properly prep and coat. This way all surfaces are protected from corrosion. Masking can be used where this isn't possible. When coating the steel frames I don't plug the BB shell threads or head-tube and lightly fog with the coating. This protects these areas from corrosion but does not cause issue with fitment of the BB or HS.

bsieb, I've never had this question come up, but IMO it's never a good idea to apply any coating over another. The ceramic can be removed by media blasting when prepping for powder. When powder-coat is applied there is an electrical charge placed on the part that attracts the particles. One of ceramics properties is as an insulator for electronic circuit boards, so it may not ???? allow the powder to collect on the frame??? I'll check that further, but removal before powder coating would be wisest move.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

The green/ black and blue/ black are both semi-gloss coating. The sheen of the ceramic does not include a high gloss without having to apply a clear ceramic overcoat. I'm posting a photo of a set of cranks with the blue/ black or Midnight Black applied.



bsieb said:


> Sure would like to see some pics of a frame done in the green black or blue black...


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

crazy8 said:


> When coating the steel frames I don't plug the BB shell threads or head-tube and lightly fog with the coating. This protects these areas from corrosion but does not cause issue with fitment of the BB or HS.


I can verify this. The frames I sent came back with ceramicoat in the head tube, seat tube, bb shell and even in the water bottle bosses. He didn't plug anything, and everything threaded in as normal. Headsets pressed in like a dream. Even the seatpost I sent to have coated with the frame fit perfectly into the seat tube.


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## The Lazian (Feb 21, 2011)

looks cool


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## The Lazian (Feb 21, 2011)

very cool


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## CCPcoatings.com (May 28, 2012)

*Powder Coating & Ceramic Coating of Bike Frames*



Clockwork Bikes said:


> My understanding is that a frame is $135. That's an incredible deal. I plan on getting a frame to RD as soon as I get a customer who's interested.
> 
> One reason builders may be hesitant is that the coating is pretty thin compared to powder coat so your work better be tight or it'll show.
> 
> -Joel


Joel:

There are likely several reasons mfgr's haven't really gravitated to Ceramics for this application in a moderate production scenario. Cost and selection are the first that come to mind. These types of Ceramics are relatively costly in comparison to powders and some paints. Ceramic Coatings also require a very precise application process that's not as forgiving as paint and powder coating. The other concern is that Ceramic Coatings of this variety are currently available in less than 100 colors and only come in variants of satin and matte finishes. Whereas Powder Coatings and Paints are available in 1000's of colors, gloss levels and textures. What you gain in some potential durability, you lose in creative control. So it depends on what you're after.

From our experience, most customers looking to coat a frame / forks are initially concerned with aesthetics, i.e. color, texture, etc. Durability and function usually comes second. I think most feel that if the Powder Coating is more durable than the paint it's replacing they're pretty happy. We've never done a direct A / B test comparing the durability of the Ceramic Colors / Clears with that of Powder but for those seeking a little more durability we offer an optional Acrylic that's pretty darn durable. Assuming PROPER application* of the coatings for the intended MTB usage, I think the increased film thickness of a Powder / Acrylic clear would be pretty darn close to the increased durability of the thinner Ceramic Coating.

*It's VERY important to make sure you are comparing apples to apples when looking at the durability of current or past Powder Coated frames. Also, frame substrate and preparation make a HUGE difference. For example, those with an OEM Powder Coated aluminum frame are likely going to be most disappointed in that they likely see the most coating failures in chipping / corrosion and the coating just delaminating. This is a result production coating processes. OEM frames are typically chemically cleaned and pretreated which offers chemical adhesion and corrosion resistance. Unfortunately this doesn't always hold up in hard use and impacts. Whenever we coat frames, we mechanically profile or etch the frames with assorted blast media to give the Powder Coating and Ceramic Coating something to actually bite into. This important step isn't feasible in most production scenarios. I can attest first hand that media blaster is happy to strip these coatings off of previously profiled parts&#8230;&#8230;

Hopefully this helps a bit

Bsieb:

As for your question regarding Powder Coating over Ceramic Coating, yes it is nota problem although you are relying on the condition of the underlying Ceramic Coating. It's much like painting a house without stripping off the first coat of paint. If that coating lets loose, there goes your Powder Coating. As crazy8 suggested, it's usually better to strip the part back down to it's raw state before coating.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

Is the Ceramic coating only effective on metals - or could it work for something like fiberglass/Kevlar (as in a hockey goalie mask shell?)?


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## CCPcoatings.com (May 28, 2012)

*RE: Ceramic Coating bike parts*



MMcG said:


> Is the Ceramic coating only effective on metals - or could it work for something like fiberglass/Kevlar (as in a hockey goalie mask shell?)?


You can coat anything you'd like, BUT the substrate must be able to withstand the bake at approx 300 F. Most kevlar I would believe to be fine, particularly thermo-formed types. Fiberglass might be a little sketchy.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

Yes I can coat the mask with ceramic. There's no problem with the curing of the ceramic. Some ceramics require higher cure temps other do not.


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

plus.........I understand that crack will be visable underneath the ceramic coating, without the coating cracking. What I heard anyway...


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

The info you've received it incorrect. A crack in the metal will be visible under close inspection. Ceramic forms a molecular bond with the substrate is the reason for this. 

This does not hold true for paint or powder-coat as both these finishes envelop the metal
and it's possible for the substrate the crack without it cracking through the finish.


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

> I understand that crack will be visable underneath the ceramic coating





> A crack in the metal will be visible under close inspection.


I thought that is what I said???


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

"Crap", damn dyslexia got me again :madman: with it being it's most sever in the mornings I should wait till afternoon before reading or writing in a forum. 

So it sounds like your receiving some good information on the properties of ceramic coating:thumbsup:


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## o1marc (May 31, 2012)

edoz said:


> One of the things Roger told me about the coatings is that the ceramic particles bond to the metal in such a way that you won't get rust trails under the coating like you will with clear paint of powder. It will rust where it was scratched, but it won't spread. I should have my two frames back from STB in a couple of days and I'll post some pics and a first impression report.


I don't believe this to be true. If you scratch it down to the bare metal and the metal starts to rust it will continue even under the non sratched part as it is creating an oxidation with the metal and will continueas long as it is exposed to air an moisture. The same is true with powder. As long as you don't breach the surface you shouldn't have a rust issue if coated properly. I would like to see a side by side test of the weight versus powder.


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## o1marc (May 31, 2012)

edoz said:


> One of the things Roger told me about the coatings is that the ceramic particles bond to the metal in such a way that you won't get rust trails under the coating like you will with clear paint of powder. It will rust where it was scratched, but it won't spread. I should have my two frames back from STB in a couple of days and I'll post some pics and a first impression report.


I don't believe this to be true. If you scratch it down to the bare metal and the metakl starts to rust it will continue even under the non sratched part as it is creating an oxidation with the metal and will continueas long as it is exposed to air an moisture. The same is true with powder. As long as you don't breach the surface you shouldn't have a rust issue if coated properly. I would like to see a side by side test of the weight versus powder.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

Well believe it! The rust can not run between the coating and the metals surface. It's not paint or powder where a break in the finish allows moisture to form between the finish and the coating. Before the internet and Google search you could doubt what someone says, but now there's little excuse for not checking facts before deciding what or what not to believe.


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## o1marc (May 31, 2012)

Rust is a chemical reaction to the metal, once the metal is exposed it will start to rust and continue to work its way through the metal no matter what the hell is on top of. Your surface coat may not flake off but the metal under it will continue to rust and spread and flake off itself.
So go back and check your facts.
Also the ceramic is a wet application while powder is a dry application though they are both applied to the same profiled substrate The heat melts and chemically reacts with the powder to attach itself to the profile just the way the ceramic does. In my experiance powder is much more durable than ceramic and is quite evident when you go to blast it off and ceramic will come off like butter while the powder is harder to remove than just about any substance you can put on there.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

A break in a polymer coating, as paint and powder-coat, where the substrate is exposed to the environment, moisture and oxygen, will lead to further oxidation. A opening will result in a lifting of the polymer film allowing the migration of moisture beneath the film that results in corrosion migration on the substrate. This is because polymer finishes encapsulate rather than bond to the surface.

Nano-particle ceramic alloys with the surface of the substrate forming a layer of hard metal oxide and becomes a part of the substrate on a molecular level. If the ceramic finish is scratched through into the underlying metal moisture has no where to go and corrosion of this spot will not migrate and will stop when it reaches a coated area. 

These are the facts whether you wish to accept them or not. I'm not saying ceramic is the right finish for every application, but for a steel frame it is a excellent alternative to paint and powder.


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