# Bike sizing and wrist pain. How to address?



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

I've been riding my 2021 Trance X for about 6 weeks now and having a lot of fun. But there are a few things I'm noticing and I want your opinions as long-time riders (I'm a noob). Here's the issue: Almost every time I ride, for a few days afterwards, I get really bad pain in my left wrist, like tendon pain on the far left-side (pinky side) going down past my wrist. Something is inflaming that tendon when I ride. So, I started doing more research into what could be causing this. 

I'm riding a size large and I'm wondering if there's a reach and RAD problem. I watched a number of MTB sizing videos on figuring proper RAD and reach. According to their calculations, my reach is about 454mm and my RAD is 812mm (I'm just a hair under 6' tall with a ~34" inseam). The Giant Trance X in a large has a reach of 486 and a RAD of ~882.65mm with the stock stem and handlebars. The delta are 32mm in the reach and 70.65mm in the RAD. That about 1.26" in the reach and 2.78" in the RAD. Would this/could this be leading to my wrist pain because I'm farther extended over the handlebars than I should be and putting too much weight forward instead of on the bike's center (NOT 'heavy feet/light hands')? Should I experiment with something like 1) slightly shorter stem, 2) different handlebars with some rise, and 3) fatter grips? I really love riding but I need to solve this. I can't have pain in my wrists every time I spend an hour or two bashing up and down hills... Thanks.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BRnPA said:


> I'm riding a size large and I'm wondering if there's a reach and RAD problem.


Could be, Your Mountain Bike Is Probably Too Big for You

Handlebar width and sweep could have something to do with it also, I think these vids offer good advice- 










Good luck!


----------



## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

Yep, determine your handlebar sweep angle, that can really help!


----------



## hsakkire (Mar 6, 2010)

Grinchy8 said:


> Yep, determine your handlebar sweep angle, that can really help!


I agree with everything mentioned and can tell you from experience that sweep can have a big impact. 

I experienced an avulsion fracture in my hand. Since then, I've changed my riding position with less reach and a more upright position. Additionally, I run non-traditional alternative bars. I run On-One Mary bars upside down. It looks funky but works really well. 

Hope that helps. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

So many variables, but I've been having a similar issue. I'm pretty sure it's bar sweep that is causing my issue.


----------



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

Thanks for the responses so far. The default handlebar is Giant Contact TR35, 780x35mm, 20mm rise. I'm thinking that bar sweep and, possibly, the length of the bars could be an issue. I'll keep researching and appreciate everyone's responses. Glad I'm not the only one with this issue.


----------



## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

when you get to finding a replacement, I'm running Ergotec. They have a huge variety of sweeps available across their line, I was able to source 12degree (for me) and 18degree (daughter) to exact match our measured angle.
I will admit that I like the 18degree bar maybe a bit more than the 12degree I got for me. So comfy.


----------



## Tommy E (Oct 30, 2019)

Along with everything else mentioned here, the handlebar roll itself can change the angles of you wrists and the handlebar feel.


----------



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

At this point, I almost feel like this is worth it: RideLogic bike setup consultation – Lee Likes Bikes online mountain bike school


----------



## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Re. sweep, I made a 'sweep-o-meter' using a new pair of Ergon grips that have the little pivoting plastic do-dats on the packaging so you can 'try' them. Rip those off the card and tie a piece of string between them to establish your desired bar width and hey presto.... I repeated the measurements a load of times and ended up getting the SQ Labs 16 degree bars.


----------



## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

You say only one wrist. That has me think about how off bike fitness and learning some yoga moves really helped. Sure I did stretching and exercise before but one of the yoga things I learned really helps with all the connective tissue and muscles. Good luck!


----------



## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Tommy E said:


> Along with everything else mentioned here, the handlebar roll itself can change the angles of you wrists and the handlebar feel.


This is a good point. Probably the most logical starting point for a diagnosis. Didn't fix anything for me, but was the first thing I tried messing with.


----------



## old_er (Dec 27, 2020)

Does the shop you bought your bike at have a bike fit service? Look around locally and talk to people who have a methodical approach to bike fit.
Old injuries, arthritis, flexibility issues all play into this as well. RAD sizing is one persons theory which may or may not work for you. Approach fit from a problem solving perspective, understand the problem, find the root cause, and correct.


----------



## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

I’ve done two things for my wrists/hands that seemed to have solved my almost debilitating pain. First, I‘ve gone with a handlebar with significant sweep: 29° using the Carver MiTi Carbon bar. I started with it on my rigid singlespeed and it worked wonders — made it MORE comfortable than my full suspension with a wider 9° sweep bar. So I got that bar for my full suspension and it was better, but not “perfect”. I then realized that the seat on my full suspension was over an inch further forward in relation to the bottom bracket than my older school single speed, and that resulted in far more weight on my hands on the full suspension bike. I bought a new dropper seat post (9point8 Fall Line R) that has 25mm of setback and that gets my hips further back and allows me to support more of my weight when seated on my bum and legs. Absolutely an amazing improvement in comfort and, for this old school guy, a better pedaling position to-boot! Turns out “modern geometry” with the steep seat tube angle makes it difficult for me to get the weight off my hands. My saddle-to-grips measurement on the full suspension is now an inch longer (could fix that with a new stem) but I actually have far less weight on my hands because my hips are further back. I’ll keep it that way because when I stand up for descents and cornering the grips are in the right place. Bottom line…consider your seat position as well as the sweep (and width) of your bars.


----------



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

old_er said:


> Does the shop you bought your bike at have a bike fit service? Look around locally and talk to people who have a methodical approach to bike fit.
> Old injuries, arthritis, flexibility issues all play into this as well. RAD sizing is one persons theory which may or may not work for you. Approach fit from a problem solving perspective, understand the problem, find the root cause, and correct.


Yes, here's my plan: I'm taking the bike back in on Friday for a free tune-up. I'll let them know of my issues and see if they have a fitting service. They sell a ton of bikes so I'm hoping that they know something about bike fit. What I really want them to do is figure out a possible fix in the handlebar rise/sweep and maybe stem length. I'll drive them nuts until we come up with a solution. One thing no one has mentioned is going with fatter grips. I'm running PNW loam grips, which are not the fattest option. I'm wondering if a slightly fatter grip would help too, like an Ergon GA2. Thanks.


----------



## hsakkire (Mar 6, 2010)

I use old school Oury grips. I've gone through several dozen others and like Oury the best but YMMV. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Blue Dot Trail (May 30, 2018)

This bothered me for years. Decades maybe. Finally couple of years ago I decided enough was enough. I spent a ton of time & money switching out bars, stems, grips, you name it. Totally adjusted my riding position. What finally worked for me (_everybodys body is totally different_) was riser bars. Big ol’ riser bars. 80 mm. So damn comfortable now. No wrist pain. No neck pain. No back pain. I’m lovin’ it! 
I learned I can’t have any of my body weight going forward.


----------



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

Blue Dot Trail said:


> This bothered me for years. Decades maybe. Finally couple of years ago I decided enough was enough. I spent a ton of time & money switching out bars, stems, grips, you name it. Totally adjusted my riding position. What finally worked for me (_everybodys body is totally different_) was riser bars. Big ol’ riser bars. 80 mm. So damn comfortable now. No wrist pain. No neck pain. No back pain. I’m lovin’ it!
> I learned I can’t have any of my body weight going forward.


"spent a ton of time & money switching out bars, stems, grips, you name it". That's what I don't want to do. 
Seriously, there has to be an algorithm for figuring-out the best fit, and whether it requires a riser bar, shorter stem, more sweep, etc... I'm hoping that when I drop by the bike shop on Friday, they can give me some solid advice. Thanks for your experience. Glad to know I'm not the only one out here with these issues.


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

I love my Answer 20/20 bars. I lot of people with wrist pain find relief with more sweep.


----------



## RatBikeRod (Jun 27, 2019)

I have three bikes, my hard tail with a flat bar is the most uncomfortable To my wrist and hands. I am using the ergo-paddle style grips which helps and allow me to cock my hands and wrist differently. 

My bikepacking (Surly Ogre) bike has a Surly Moloko bar and it is my absolute favorite as far as hand position goes. 

My Trek Rig Single Speed Gravel conversion I am running a Surly Corner Bar (semi-drop) and while I love the bar my back hurts if I ride too far. 

So all in all, for longer riding I tend to take the Ogre as I am most comfortable on it and never have pain. The others I am coping with by changing up my position and grips. Much like on my motorcycles it is all about experimenting with seat position, handle bar and grip type and reach.


----------



## peterk123 (Oct 10, 2005)

I'm gonna go outside of the box and recommend some free changes before playing with new bars. How about the angle of your shifter and brakes? Is it forcing you to flex your wrist a certain way? How about suspension settings? Maybe open up the low speed compression so things are softer upfront on the slow hits? Maybe adjust your rebound because you are stacking up on constant hits? No idea if it will work but throwing it out there.


----------



## barelfly (Jun 27, 2008)

Picked up some good tips in this thread. I can tell I have weight on my wrists/bars and try to remember to sit up a little more (I come from road biking and that aggressive sit style). I try to remember to stretch my hands, fingers and wrists as I’m driving to the trails and that has helped a bit.

but what really gets me, my thumbs. It takes a few days for me to get some strength back in my grip. I know I’m probably death gripping the heck out of the bar, so hopefully as I get more comfortable with riding, that will help.

again - good stuff from everyone here.


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

BRnPA said:


> I've been riding my 2021 Trance X for about 6 weeks now and having a lot of fun. But there are a few things I'm noticing and I want your opinions as long-time riders (I'm a noob). Here's the issue: Almost every time I ride, for a few days afterwards, I get really bad pain in my left wrist, like tendon pain on the far left-side (pinky side) going down past my wrist. Something is inflaming that tendon when I ride. So, I started doing more research into what could be causing this.
> 
> I'm riding a size large and I'm wondering if there's a reach and RAD problem. I watched a number of MTB sizing videos on figuring proper RAD and reach. According to their calculations, my reach is about 454mm and my RAD is 812mm (I'm just a hair under 6' tall with a ~34" inseam). The Giant Trance X in a large has a reach of 486 and a RAD of ~882.65mm with the stock stem and handlebars. The delta are 32mm in the reach and 70.65mm in the RAD. That about 1.26" in the reach and 2.78" in the RAD. Would this/could this be leading to my wrist pain because I'm farther extended over the handlebars than I should be and putting too much weight forward instead of on the bike's center (NOT 'heavy feet/light hands')? Should I experiment with something like 1) slightly shorter stem, 2) different handlebars with some rise, and 3) fatter grips? I really love riding but I need to solve this. I can't have pain in my wrists every time I spend an hour or two bashing up and down hills... Thanks.


Tendonitis is going to happen. It takes a long healing process to resolve tendonitis, so, dial in the fit of your bike asap!

An easy tweak that spends no money is roll the bar to change its fit for you. Other items can also lend to dialing it in however, bar angle adjustment can resolve much without changing any parts. 

Stem length, bar width, saddle distance, the list all needs looked after.


----------



## chucko58 (Aug 4, 2006)

Anyone experiment with downward sweep? I haven't yet, but I suspect my elbows and shoulders would prefer it.

I just installed a Salsa Salt Flats bar with 11° backsweep.


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

chucko58 said:


> Anyone experiment with downward sweep? I haven't yet, but I suspect my elbows and shoulders would prefer it.
> 
> I just installed a Salsa Salt Flats bar with 11° backsweep.


It is all about experimenting with what works for your needs. Test your theory and see if it lends to a better experience.


----------



## old_er (Dec 27, 2020)

BRnPA said:


> Yes, here's my plan: I'm taking the bike back in on Friday for a free tune-up. I'll let them know of my issues and see if they have a fitting service. They sell a ton of bikes so I'm hoping that they know something about bike fit. What I really want them to do is figure out a possible fix in the handlebar rise/sweep and maybe stem length. I'll drive them nuts until we come up with a solution. One thing no one has mentioned is going with fatter grips. I'm running PNW loam grips, which are not the fattest option. I'm wondering if a slightly fatter grip would help too, like an Ergon GA2. Thanks.


You state you are a noob to mtb. What type of riding are you doing and what type of trails and terrain are your riding on? This plays into fitting the bike to you and what you ride on.
Are your bars higher, even, or lower than your seat height? Was your seat height setup with a basic fit at the shop? The Trance X is a bit long in the reach dimension which may be causing you to lean more forward and put excess pressure on the bars. All these variables are difficult to envision on a mtb forum where we can't see you ride. Most of us have been down the road of working to get the perfect fit, some just adapt, and a few get it right out the door. Be careful not to fall down the rabbit hole of formula based bike fit, it is all theory and much from the perspective of pros who have been riding for years. Lee McCormack, who developed the RAD measurement, was a pro downhiller, and his fit works for him and others but usually puts you on a bike that is, for most people, very short in reach. There are entire threads here that discuss the pros and cons of RAD.

Before you get caught up in spending a lot of money on grips, bars, and stems let the shop make some basic adjustments and then go ride to see what works. A simple adjustment of how many spacers are under your stem will make a world of difference. As others have mentioned, bar roll is another. Keep notes and use some masking tape and a marker to keep track of adjustments so if something doesn't work you can get back to where you were. Bike fit can become a life long obsession.


----------



## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

OP, how wide are your bars? The wider you go, the more it cocks your wrists. Bars with more sweep address this, but so will cutting down your bars (admittedly to a lesser extent).

If you're going to buy a new set of bars anyway, this is kind of quick and free experiment.


----------



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

peterk123 said:


> I'm gonna go outside of the box and recommend some free changes before playing with new bars. How about the angle of your shifter and brakes? Is it forcing you to flex your wrist a certain way? How about suspension settings? Maybe open up the low speed compression so things are softer upfront on the slow hits? Maybe adjust your rebound because you are stacking up on constant hits? No idea if it will work but throwing it out there.


Yes! I was thinking about this last night. I was sitting on the bike, trying to figure out why ONLY my left wrist was bothering me. I worked the dropper & the brake, realizing that my wrist was in a weird position when braking. I have not adjusted it yet, but plan on asking the LBS when I take it in tomorrow morning. This could certainly be one factor in the wrist pain.


----------



## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

The Ergon GA3 grips really helped me. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

kosmo said:


> OP, how wide are your bars? The wider you go, the more it cocks your wrists. Bars with more sweep address this, but so will cutting down your bars (admittedly to a lesser extent).
> 
> If you're going to buy a new set of bars anyway, this is kind of quick and free experiment.


My current stock bars are 780mm wide. According to this formula, that is pretty much the correct width, but I do think more rise and sweep would help: In in a large frame, and because I'm just shy of 6', that puts me on the left tail of the median height for large, so the reach is probably a tad long. I think more rise and sweep would help this.


----------



## peterk123 (Oct 10, 2005)

BRnPA said:


> Yes! I was thinking about this last night. I was sitting on the bike, trying to figure out why ONLY my left wrist was bothering me. I worked the dropper & the brake, realizing that my wrist was in a weird position when braking. I have not adjusted it yet, but plan on asking the LBS when I take it in tomorrow morning. This could certainly be one factor in the wrist pain.


If you make the adjustment do the following. I am guessing everyone does it, but I really have no idea. My brakes/shifters are barely tight. I have them set so I can twist it by hand with a bit of effort. You may find this handy on a ride because you can tweak it while on the trail and get the angle just right. But that is not why I do it. I do it so they don't snap in half in a crash. For the life of me I do not understand why bike shops crank those things the way they do. I have taken some hits over the years and never broke a lever, twisted around my bar, but never broken.


----------



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

old_er said:


> You state you are a noob to mtb. What type of riding are you doing and what type of trails and terrain are your riding on? This plays into fitting the bike to you and what you ride on.
> Are your bars higher, even, or lower than your seat height? Was your seat height setup with a basic fit at the shop? The Trance X is a bit long in the reach dimension which may be causing you to lean more forward and put excess pressure on the bars. All these variables are difficult to envision on a mtb forum where we can't see you ride. Most of us have been down the road of working to get the perfect fit, some just adapt, and a few get it right out the door. Be careful not to fall down the rabbit hole of formula based bike fit, it is all theory and much from the perspective of pros who have been riding for years. Lee McCormack, who developed the RAD measurement, was a pro downhiller, and his fit works for him and others but usually puts you on a bike that is, for most people, very short in reach. There are entire threads here that discuss the pros and cons of RAD.
> 
> Before you get caught up in spending a lot of money on grips, bars, and stems let the shop make some basic adjustments and then go ride to see what works. A simple adjustment of how many spacers are under your stem will make a world of difference. As others have mentioned, bar roll is another. Keep notes and use some masking tape and a marker to keep track of adjustments so if something doesn't work you can get back to where you were. Bike fit can become a life long obsession.


Good questions. I've been training on this trail. Excellent difficult uphills and then very rocky/rooty downhills in PA. Only hard braking on the downhills, so it's probably the 'angle of attack' from my hand to the brake lever on the downhills - I'm probably putting too much weight forward on the bars and possibly turning my wrists, as you mention. (On the downhills, I drop my seat and 'hover' over the seat, absorbing the bumps with my legs but I may be putting too much pressure on my hands & rear brake). Need to check that. Thanks for all the other suggestions, especially those toward the end. I'll give all those a shot.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

peterk123 said:


> If you make the adjustment do the following. I am guessing everyone does it, but I really have no idea. My brakes/shifters are barely tight. I have them set so I can twist it by hand with a bit of effort. You may find this handy on a ride because you can tweak it while on the trail and get the angle just right. But that is not why I do it. I do it so they don't snap in half in a crash. For the life of me I do not understand why bike shops crank those things the way they do.



Moving levers without loosening them can damage handlebars, mostly cosmetic on aluminum bars but potentially structural on carbon ones. IMO tightening them to correct torque spec is best so that's what I do on my builds.


----------



## old_er (Dec 27, 2020)

BRnPA said:


> Good questions. I've been training on this trail. Excellent difficult uphills and then very rocky/rooty downhills in PA. Only hard braking on the downhills, so it's probably the 'angle of attack' from my hand to the brake lever on the downhills - I'm probably putting too much weight forward on the bars and possibly turning my wrists, as you mention. (On the downhills, I drop my seat and 'hover' over the seat, absorbing the bumps with my legs but I may be putting too much pressure on my hands & rear brake). Need to check that. Thanks for all the other suggestions, especially those toward the end. I'll give all those a shot.


One thing I completely forgot is your suspension setup. The Trance X should eat up the terrain pretty well. Do you have a shock pump and do you have your suspension pressures, compression, and rebound set to at least Giant's recommendation for your weight. Too soft fork pressure will put you deep into front travel causing forward lean and conversely too high pressure will reduce shock absorption. There is a lot to take in when starting this sport.


----------



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

Bassmantweed said:


> The Ergon GA3 grips really helped me. Your mileage may vary.


Thanks! I also like contoured grips. I have them on my old Schwinn MTB and they feel good on my hands. I did order a pair of Ergon GA2 Fat grips to see if they alleviate a little of the pain: I have large hands and don't like the contact feel of small grips.


----------



## hsakkire (Mar 6, 2010)

peterk123 said:


> If you make the adjustment do the following. I am guessing everyone does it, but I really have no idea. My brakes/shifters are barely tight. I have them set so I can twist it by hand with a bit of effort. You may find this handy on a ride because you can tweak it while on the trail and get the angle just right. But that is not why I do it. I do it so they don't snap in half in a crash. For the life of me I do not understand why bike shops crank those things the way they do. I have taken some hits over the years and never broke a lever, twisted around my bar, but never broken.


I grew up riding motorcycles and cranking your lever perches tight is a big no no. I have no idea why bicycle shops do it either.

Mine are snug only. They won't accidentally rotate but will if they receive an impact. And, I can rotate them with effort. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## peterk123 (Oct 10, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> Moving levers without loosening them can damage handlebars, mostly cosmetic on aluminum bars but potentially structural on carbon ones. IMO tightening them to correct torque spec is best so that's what I do on my builds.


I may have not articulated this correctly. I loosen them to move them but I do not torque the heck out of them so in a crash they move a bit and not snap. Just throwing it out there as an idea that has worked for me for twenty years. My opinion is that levers are generally over torqued, even if it is to factory settings.


----------



## hsakkire (Mar 6, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Moving levers without loosening them can damage handlebars, mostly cosmetic on aluminum bars but potentially structural on carbon ones. IMO tightening them to correct torque spec is best so that's what I do on my builds.


You'd have to have them very very tight to do damage to aluminum bars. I never run carbon bars and never will. 

In more than 30 years of mountain biking, I've never had an issue and there aren't gouges on my bars. And, if I'm moving them significantly, I loosen them completely. 



Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

old_er said:


> One thing I completely forgot is your suspension setup. The Trance X should eat up the terrain pretty well. Do you have a shock pump and do you have your suspension pressures, compression, and rebound set to at least Giant's recommendation for your weight. Too soft fork pressure will put you deep into front travel causing forward lean and conversely too high pressure will reduce shock absorption. There is a lot to take in when starting this sport.


Yes. It a beast. It is a bit heavy but that translates to really buffering the rocks and roots on the downhills. I do have a shock pump and am pretty diligent at monitoring the squish and rebound. At this point, I'm running 25% squish and stock rebound numbers on both the front and rear shocks. But I can always tweak and play with those numbers.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

peterk123 said:


> I may have not articulated this correctly. I loosen them to move them but I do not torque the heck out of them so in a crash they move a bit and not snap. Just throwing it out there as an idea that has worked for me for twenty years. My opinion is that levers are generally over torqued, even if it is to factory settings.



Ah, I guess this part confused me



peterk123 said:


> My brakes/shifters are barely tight. I have them set so I can twist it by hand with a bit of effort. You may find this handy on a ride because you can tweak it while on the trail and get the angle just right.






hsakkire said:


> You'd have to have them very very tight to do damage to aluminum bars. I never run carbon bars and never will.
> 
> In more than 30 years of mountain biking, I've never had an issue and there aren't gouges on my bars. And, if I'm moving them significantly, I loosen them completely.



Believe me lots of aluminum bars damage easily, I've inadvertently done it many times by accidentally moving a lever that wasn't quite tight when building bikes. As mentioned not a safety issue on aluminum bars but sucks when you mar a handlebar on a brand new $5,000 bike. Also you may not like them but carbon bars are pretty common and twisting semi-tight levers on them is definitely sub-optimal.


----------



## dschneiderch (Aug 25, 2021)

BRnPA said:


> Yes, here's my plan: I'm taking the bike back in on Friday for a free tune-up. I'll let them know of my issues and see if they have a fitting service. They sell a ton of bikes so I'm hoping that they know something about bike fit. What I really want them to do is figure out a possible fix in the handlebar rise/sweep and maybe stem length. I'll drive them nuts until we come up with a solution. One thing no one has mentioned is going with fatter grips. I'm running PNW loam grips, which are not the fattest option. I'm wondering if a slightly fatter grip would help too, like an Ergon GA2. Thanks.


I use ergon ergonomic grips and that's been great for preventing my wrists from dropping and eliminating carpal tunnel . I think people with long fingers don't like them as much because the flat part prevents full finger curl.

Also agree with adjusting width and backsweep of your handlebar choice.


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Ptor said:


> I then realized that the seat on my full suspension was over an inch further forward in relation to the bottom bracket than my older school single speed, and that resulted in far more weight on my hands on the full suspension bike. I bought a new dropper seat post (9point8 Fall Line R) that has 25mm of setback and that gets my hips further back and allows me to support more of my weight when seated on my bum and legs.


It's not been mentioned much, but for many of us, our bodies had been conditioned to ride with a certain amount of muscle engagement and core support that was well suited in a slack seat tube angle and short reach (with long ETT). 

If you look at steep STA Tri Bikes, riders typically send a lot of time in an aero position, with forearms rested on the tri bars which are usually much higher than the actual bar position. 

One thing I noticed looking at 2021 Olympic MTB XC bike checks was that the further forward a rider's saddle was slid (or steeper effective seat tube angle), the higher their bars were in relation to the saddle. Riders with a more traditional slack STAs and offset saddles were running slightly smaller frames for their bodies, and as a result, also seemed to be running lower bars with negative stems. 

I too use to run really low bars, until I moved to modern steep STAs on my most recent bikes, now I'm running higher rise bars and lots of spacers under the stem to get comfortable. Or an offset seatpost.


----------



## SprSonik (Jul 29, 2004)

BRnPA said:


> At this point, I almost feel like this is worth it: RideLogic bike setup consultation – Lee Likes Bikes online mountain bike school


Internet advice is great, until it isn't. Get a professional fit and have someone really look at your position on the bike. Could be a saddle position issue, not bar sweep, stem length, etc...etc...etc...While we might get lucky and pitch something that works for you, a professional fitter can dial you in so you and your bike are working together. Small price to pay for the value you will gain.


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Pro fitters don’t always catch things either. The problem is that they don’t tell you “sit in this one position for an hour or two and tell me how your wrists feel.”

When you inevitably encounter an issue that is only revealed by time in the saddle, they play the guessing game just as much as the internet does.

I’d only pay for a fitter who 1) had extra parts for me try before I buy 2) offers a fit garuntee where you can go back as many times as neccesary to get comfortable.


----------



## Whiterabbitt (May 16, 2020)

My 2 cents but I think it's been said already in more detail:

Your issue is ulnar nerve irritation. covers ring and pinky finger. I've experienced this issue BADLY. Like, had to stop riding for weeks to let the nerve heal kind of bad.

1. Bar sweep, and you might not need new bars. even small adjustments make huge differences. Try rolling your bars while you're also getting fitted and waiting for replacement bars to arrive.
2. grips. If you have large or long hands and tiny grips, this is totally signature for ulnar injuries. I like fat foam grips. that solved my issue overnight.
3. weight distribution. You hands should be light on the bike. Best grip comfort and angles are no good if you have all your weight on your wrists. get balanced and centered on the bike, get your weight on your feet, make sure your hands are only needed for control.
4. Wrist Alignment. Make sure your controls put your wrists in-line with your arms. Set up your bike using wrist braces from walmart. They force neutral wrists and if you have to fight the brace to use the brakes and shift levers when on-trail you have an alignment issue. It's not so easy to feel that in the garage or on the street.
5. ab strength. Once balanced, you still flop over if your tummy can't hold you. Situps, crawling excercises, or whatever strengthens your abs to help hold your weight up rather than put it on your shoulders (and by extension your wrists). Your neck, shoulders, wrists, and fingers will feel loads better.

These are what worked for me. I've had endless wrist problems, sore neck, sore shoulders. all related to the 4 things above.

I still ride with one wrist brace on from a BAD injury last November, (been on it for months), but hopefully by the end of this year I'll remove that from my gear list.


----------



## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

BRnPA said:


> My current stock bars are 780mm wide. According to this formula, that is pretty much the correct width, but I do think more rise and sweep would help: In in a large frame, and because I'm just shy of 6', that puts me on the left tail of the median height for large, so the reach is probably a tad long. I think more rise and sweep would help this.


I hear you, but I've got some recent first hand exp that might be worth sharing.

I've been happy for years at ~790 on bars, but just recently got a bike that came with an integrated stem/bar combo at 760.

My wrists are cocked less, and darned if they aren't less sore at the end of a 3 hour tour.

Might have to break out the hacksaw when I get back from the current road trip! 🙃


----------



## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

My bikes fit so that with the saddle fully dropped I can stand over them close my eyes and extend my arms in a neutral position and when I open my eyes the grips are in my hands.

I ride Ergon GE1 grips (Frozen Stealth). The E is for enduro and that makes them better.

But unless your bike is drastically the wrong size. My guess is technique. I actively practice reducing the stress on my wrists while riding. Mostly by seeing how loosely I can grip the grips while still being in complete control especially on the downhills. It’s akin to being able to ride/pedal seated but without all your weight on the saddle


----------



## old_er (Dec 27, 2020)

How did the trip to the shop work out on Friday? Were you able to get info about fitting?


----------



## Mikecito (Jun 2, 2007)

Been there with the hand pressure. My quick and dirty advice ( if you haven't yet), do/buy whatever you need to get your grips level with your full extended seat, using a riser bar rolled back to match the slope/angle of your fork. 
I bet that sorts most of the issue out. Then the rabbit hole of tire and suspension pressure as well. It all adds up. 
Light hands, heavy feet is the goal.


----------



## Whiterabbitt (May 16, 2020)

Another adder. It never stops, the potential for pain.

my bike was totally sorted for wrists, then I had to flip the stem for another reason and dudn’t get the bar roll right at reassembly. Quick ride, and I feel it in my ulnar nerve. Fixed the bars, but will take a week or two for ulnar to heal.

so stay vigilant about your wrists.


----------



## Nick_M (Jan 16, 2015)

I have injured my hand last year, and start having sufficient wrist pain(numbness, cannot hold the grip) over braking bumps on 3+ minutes descends on 180mm bike;

Besides gymnastics for the wrist, pwn handlebar and top level damper eliminated all issues

Geometry wise i switched from 455 to 495 reach and could not be happier, since it is irrelevant to root cause 


Cheers


----------



## ridetheridge (Mar 7, 2009)

BRnPA said:


> I've been riding my 2021 Trance X for about 6 weeks now and having a lot of fun. But there are a few things I'm noticing and I want your opinions as long-time riders (I'm a noob). Here's the issue: Almost every time I ride, for a few days afterwards, I get really bad pain in my left wrist, like tendon pain on the far left-side (pinky side) going down past my wrist. Something is inflaming that tendon when I ride. So, I started doing more research into what could be causing this.
> 
> I'm riding a size large and I'm wondering if there's a reach and RAD problem. I watched a number of MTB sizing videos on figuring proper RAD and reach. According to their calculations, my reach is about 454mm and my RAD is 812mm (I'm just a hair under 6' tall with a ~34" inseam). The Giant Trance X in a large has a reach of 486 and a RAD of ~882.65mm with the stock stem and handlebars. The delta are 32mm in the reach and 70.65mm in the RAD. That about 1.26" in the reach and 2.78" in the RAD. Would this/could this be leading to my wrist pain because I'm farther extended over the handlebars than I should be and putting too much weight forward instead of on the bike's center (NOT 'heavy feet/light hands')? Should I experiment with something like 1) slightly shorter stem, 2) different handlebars with some rise, and 3) fatter grips? I really love riding but I need to solve this. I can't have pain in my wrists every time I spend an hour or two bashing up and down hills... Thanks.


I think Lee McCormick's approach to sizing is the correct approach, IMO. "Heavy feet/light hands" makes riding fun. This new geo, if not sized properly becomes "heavy hands/light feet". A few things you could try would be; shortening the stem, moving the seat back, raising the bars and getting thick foam grips.


----------



## Whiterabbitt (May 16, 2020)

Do you guys find that light hands make for easy looping out on steep climbs?


----------



## old_er (Dec 27, 2020)

ridetheridge said:


> I think Lee McCormick's approach to sizing is the correct approach, IMO. "Heavy feet/light hands" makes riding fun. This new geo, if not sized properly becomes "heavy hands/light feet". A few things you could try would be; shortening the stem, moving the seat back, raising the bars and getting thick foam grips.


Lee's sizing/fit is very subjective. Light hands/heavy feet is relative and also requires good core strength. You can get there with high bars and short reach but there will be tradeoffs.


----------



## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

You ideally set up your bike in a balanced position. A little shift in weight back, lifts the front. A little shift in weight forward, the front stays planted or digs in for cornering. And when you're on flatter stuff the steering doesn't feel vague or heavy handed.


----------



## ridetheridge (Mar 7, 2009)

old_er said:


> Lee's sizing/fit is very subjective. Light hands/heavy feet is relative and also requires good core strength. You can get there with high bars and short reach but there will be tradeoffs.


Agree there are tradeoffs. The OP coming back with pain in his wrists every time he rides is not a good one.


----------



## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

As mentioned what you are feeling is the ulnar nerve that runs through your spine at the neck and past the elbow (funny bone is where the nerve is most exposed) and down to the tip of your finger. Most likely the impingement is at your neck and not where you feel the pain. I tore a rotator cuff and the inflammation put pressure on the nerve. When I bent down to tie my shoe laces it felt like a knife was being pushed onto my tricep on the side with the damaged rotator cuff. 

There are a few medical people that are trained in Active Release Therapy and if done properly it works wonders. Our bodies never fully evolved for walking on two feet and if you look at the openings in the spine you will see that it takes very little swelling to result in nerve impingement and pain. 

There are times when I will stand in the saddle simply to be able to straighen my back and relax my shoulder muscles as this helps me a great deal. I have tended to use a slightly larger frame as it allows me to stretch out more and this helps my lungs and back muscles work better. There is a reason why there are so many stem designs of varying dimensions and with the fancier bikes being sold what comes from the factory is often not ideal for the rider's body. This is compounded with bike companies selling small, medium, and large sizes that skip over what were common frame sizes available in years past.


----------



## BRnPA (Oct 9, 2020)

old_er said:


> How did the trip to the shop work out on Friday? Were you able to get info about fitting?


Wanted to give an update. I picked up a pair of Giant Connect Ergo Max Lock-On Grips on Ebay. Nice contoured grips which fit my hands very well. I let my wrist heal and rode twice in the last week. With the new grips, adjusted brake and shifter levers, and being pretty conscious about how I'm NOT 'death gripping' the handlebars, my pain is going away! The bike fitting did help because they looked at my fit and made some small adjustments but also recommended the Ergo Max grips. So, I'm going to keep riding and see what happens. I may pickup some new handlebars with a little more rise and sweep to see if I can get a little more comfortable in the cockpit but for now things are getting better. Thanks!


----------



## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I've gone through a similar ergo fitting progression, and the handlebars with stem adjustments were the game changer. With the stock 780mm width, 9deg bend, 5deg sweep and 20mm rise bars my hands would burn, and my shoulders would cramp. Plus my wrists were taking a beating. Buying handlebars online is a crap shoot. I went to a couple of LBS's and that gave me a good selection of bars to put in my hands and hold. I wanted a riser bar but I didn't know how much rise. I started with an extreme 50mm rise bar. Brand aside, I closed my eyes to see which one felt right? What was interesting was, the width. The riser bars I was holding were only 760mm and it felt right. Same bend and sweep as my stock bars. I bought the 50mm rise bars. I also raised my stem a little with the spacers. It was too much extra height, but no pain in my wrists or shoulders. It felt funny in the turns, and weird on the steep climbs. 
When you raise the bars, you reduce the reach. It pushes you back (more feet heavy). So I was able to swap out the bars at the LBS where I bought them for some HB with less rise (35mm) and a different brand. The issue was they were 780mm width. I just cut them down to 760mm and they felt good. About the same bend and sweep. Then I bought a new 60mm stem that pushed the bars back out to gain back the reach I lost with the higher bars. End result, I'm more foot heavy (it doesn't take much) with the higher bars. No pain in my hands, wrists or shoulders, and the handle bars 'feel' right. What ever brand they are, they are the right bars for me.


----------

