# Leaves......



## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

Why is the standard getting rid of them? Leaving them makes the trails less prone to erosion from riding, and from rain. 

We have one local trail system where there never is any leaf blowing and the trails stays in WAY better shape than , the majority of local trails that leave blow every last inch of trail. The leaf blown trails tend to crumb apart in dry periods, get more braking bumps, close down more to wet weather, and even the best condition have way less grip than the Loamy trail where the leaves were left. Also the non leaf blown trails tend to have less roots popping up as well.

From my eyes the only reason to leaf blow is to see the trail.....IMO just ride them in. The pros are just overall better riding experience year round.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

*Leaf blowing*

I ride in North Jersey and have never seen leaves blown off the trail in any State or County Park and it not part of any JORBA trail maintenance I am aware.

Do you mean people actually use leaf blowers and/or rakes on trails?Maybe rail trails and walking paths but trails in the woods?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Here, they clog the drains of the trail, leading to more erosion and puddles, they also decompose in place and make a nasty slick layer, that also helps to trap puddles and water, contributing to erosion, also making an organic layer that isn't as solid as dirt.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

Clogging drains sure.....but why not just unclogg that drain.

Leaves are not slick if your tires piece them.

With all of that said why is the place that does not leaf blow having less erosion than the others?


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

We don't clear leaves here in VA either. Can be extremely hard to follow some trails until they get crushed down a bit.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Catch 22?? Pfft! What country are they doing this in? U.S., we're far too lazy to go that distance.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I couldn't see the trail with all the leaves covering it.


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## CycleKrieg (Dec 19, 2013)

BushwackerinPA said:


> From my eyes the only reason to leaf blow is to see the trail.....IMO just ride them in. The pros are just overall better riding experience year round.


Or if you live in a deep frost state where blowing the leaves right before freezing temps means the frost comes up faster in the spring. That is why tend to blow leaves in MN.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Leaves? Yeah they are slick but a few laps and locals who love to slide seems to clear them fast. Now acorns en masse? Freaking slick as snot, hard to clean, pile up in the low spots. Lots of locals complaining about them right now. I tell them they have feet too. Use them!


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## 202cycle (Dec 6, 2006)

BushwackerinPA said:


> With all of that said why is the place that does not leaf blow having less erosion than the others?


It's like having a sheet of plastic over the dirt. The water runs over the leaves instead of washing away the dirt.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

Jayem said:


> they also decompose in place and make a nasty slick layer, that also helps to trap puddles and water, contributing to erosion, also making an organic layer that isn't as solid as dirt.


On the local Fb page they were saying this is the organic layer they work to remove when they cut in a trail. here's what they said,

_The same stuff we need to remove when building a new trail is the same stuff leaf litter becomes, creating a soft mushy absorbent trail surface. During a heavy rain the organic duff runs down the trail and settles into the berms and low spots creating black mucky spots.

_

_Mineral soil is what you want for trails, it compacts and stays firm while also shedding water. This is what we dig down to when creating new trail._

_Organic soil is what you want for flower beds, it's soft and friable, which allows the roots to spread out and flourish while also retaining moisture for growth. This is bad for the tread of a trail.
_


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

no one blows the leaves off of the trails around here...the wind and the riding get them where they need to be for the most part...


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

walkerwalker said:


> On the local Fb page they were saying this is the organic layer they work to remove when they cut in a trail. here's what they said,
> 
> _The same stuff we need to remove when building a new trail is the same stuff leaf litter becomes, creating a soft mushy absorbent trail surface. During a heavy rain the organic duff runs down the trail and settles into the berms and low spots creating black mucky spots.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if I believe that. In locations with poor drainage I can see how leaves will keep them wet longer by holding in moisture but a trail that's regularly in use is never going to soften up from leaves decomposing on the trail. We've never done any leaf removal here and the trails aren't soft. It would take a few years without use for a soft top soil to redevelop.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

As far as I can tell, the answer is.... depends. 

On some older trails or trails that are not well designed and are already not draining/shedding water well, the leaves can help with erosion.

On newer trail that are draining/shedding well, the leaves often end up creating an organic berm on the outer edge of the trail, keeping it from draining well.

I think you need to take it situation by situation.


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## TrailYoda (Feb 23, 2009)

walkerwalker said:


> On the local Fb page they were saying this is the organic layer they work to remove when they cut in a trail. here's what they said,
> 
> _The same stuff we need to remove when building a new trail is the same stuff leaf litter becomes, creating a soft mushy absorbent trail surface. During a heavy rain the organic duff runs down the trail and settles into the berms and low spots creating black mucky spots.
> 
> ...


These are true fact based statements. However, as grandma used to say, "the devil is in the details".

*1. Good trail design prevents the underlying problem.* _"During a heavy rain the organic duff runs down the trail and settles into the berms and low spots creating black mucky spots."_

If the trail sheds water this does not happen. This likely why the "other" non blown trails in your area do not have a problem.

We have trails that are built with good side slope and/or frequent rolling grade dips, they don't have this problem. We have older trails or places where property line constraints created bad trail alignments. They do have the issue.

2. The organic layer that was there when the trail was first built was likely centuries old and depending on the forest (like in PA) +3" deep.

This layer will not be similarly re-established on any heavily used MTB trail, unless as mentioned in 1. above, you have long sections of trail that have thick piles of leaves or pine needles which are floating downhill.

*It does makes sense to remove the very thick leaves that are blocking drainage or causing puddling.* Wholesale blowing is overkill and for us is wasted effort since we have 50 miles of trail to maintain (eg. trees downed by storms to clear) and new trails to build.

On one trail that used to have very little use, I did blow the trail 1/2 way through fall. (The maples leaves were removed but before the oaks dropped down). This allowed the trail to be seen, which otherwise was impossible to see and would have been 'lost'. This approach allowed some leaf litter to remain, which as *202cycle* pointed out, minimizes the rain impacts to the tread surface. Two other benefits of this approach are:

* Some people claim the leaf layer also reduces frost heave, which can be problematic in areas with prolonged freeze and thaw. I can't say if that is definitely the case or not but it intuitively makes sense to me.

* I've seen folk people blow the leaves at the end of the fall that makes the narrow single track look like interstate all winter long. :-( If they do it before full leaf drop, your narrow tread will be re-established in two weeks when the oaks shed their folliage. ;-)


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Leave 'em be!


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## Surestick Malone (Jan 24, 2004)

kapusta said:


> As far as I can tell, the answer is.... depends.
> 
> On some older trails or trails that are not well designed and are already not draining/shedding water well, the leaves can help with erosion.
> 
> ...


I think the problems occur when people ride the trail when it's still wet. Good packed-in mineral soil will shed water, dry faster and stay firm when there's somemoisture in it. Organic soil stays wet longer and then riders start to leave tracks where water collects and then starts to flow causing erosion to the whole thing. Add in freeze-thaw cycles to loosen up the underlying trail bed that's wet due to the water collecting in the tire tracks... It's the same reason riders shouldn't be locking up their tires, it loosens the top layer of soil so it can get washed away leaving a spot that can fill with water starting a cycle of erision.

The need to clear leaves is going to be heavily location-dependent.


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## aero901 (Apr 11, 2012)

Location dependent for sure. Rocky/sandy soils can actually benefit from leaving the leaves. Clay/silt based soils, which take forever to dry, need leaves removed in the spring so sun/wind can do their thing to dry soils and prevent ruts that would need to be fixed. Removing the leaves is a lot easier than tread repair in this case. We maintain trails in a few dense hardwood forests where the leaves accumulate to around an inch thick after the fall/winter seasons and hold in moisture like Saran Wrap.


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

Reviving the leaf debate during the first weekend of spring?


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## aero901 (Apr 11, 2012)

Is there a better time?  We're starting our spring maintenance this week which involves some blowing so it may be relevant to a few.


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## ctxcrossx (Jan 13, 2004)

There's some good information (and a video) here: Please no leaf removal | Pine Hill Park


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

We have talked about this, at length, several times. It still "kinda" depends. Although I am 100% with the idea that if your trail drains properly, the presence of leaves is irrelevant. Unclog the drains, but otherwise, do nothing! Our trail mgr has flip-flopped on leaf blowing (yes, no, and currently yes). Our trails have never been in such bad shape in the early Spring season as when they have leaf-blown in the Fall. The frost heaves have been extensive. Every spot that wasn't leaf blown is in fine shape. I don't know what the disconnect is. To my eye as well, it seems obvious (for our trails).
We do have a couple trails where traffic can be sparse, making navigation through 12" deep leaves challenging. Yes, 12". The leaves seem to all drop at the same time in places. You navigate by feel.





(not here )

-F


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

I keep a leaf blower with me while machine building. Not for leaves though, it's how we blow out the radiator when it's getting loaded with dust, duff and dirt. For a little while we struggled with keeping the machine from overheating here in the hot, arid south west. If you run into this problem the leaf blower is clutch, use it for a minute once or twice a day and problem solved.


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