# Snow chain prototype



## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Here`s my "Version 1". This one is made from mini swingset chain (for lack of a better description) and some scrap 12g insulated wire. I made it super tight so there`s no worry about it slipping and as little chance as posible of sliding over the top of the tire to come loose and jam up in something. So far, nothing on the rear tire.

Today was my first road test and I have to give it a C- overall. I took an 8 mile loop, about half on wet but clear pavement and the rest on ice, hardpacked snow, and chewed up snow. It didn`t help as much on chewed up snow as I had hoped (almost not at all), but it was definitely an improvement over my naked almost slicks on better surfaces. Packed snow was really very good, ice okay but not as good as hardpack. On the up side, the ride on clean pavement up to about 15MPH was way better than I had expected- you can hear it, but don`t feel the vibration or thunka-thunka and it doesn`t seem to pull or swerve. I kept the chain only on the very crown of the tire in order to be clear of the brakes. There`s plenty of room there, but it`s way too close to my fender stays and I can even hear it click on the stays most of the time. Unfortunately, I can`t move the fenders any higher (already cut off the stays when I had them adjusted for a much smaller tire), but I think I`ll run the chains down a little longer next time so they`re about 1/4 inch closer to the rim on each side. Also, I need to look for a little heavier chain. This stuff works great right now, but it was too easy to bend with my needlenose pliers and I think it won`t last long before it wears through on the road contact surface. Stay tuned for an updated version in a week or so.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

That's pretty impressive. Especially for a 1st attempt. How did you fasten them at the ends?... 

I'm amazed you got them to clear everything with fenders, racks, and rim brakes.


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## fastale (Jul 2, 2007)

that is pretty sweet. I have pondered something like that in the past, do you think putting chain strips more frequently would help? It looks like the contact patch could be rubber for a long time before another chain comes up.


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## Gary the No-Trash Cougar (Oct 14, 2008)

That's awesome, very inventive! BTW. is that a Shimano dynamo hub on the front?


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## nepbug (Sep 3, 2004)

I've got a set that used to be commercially available. I'll post some pictures up after I get home and take some photos. They might help you refine your design.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Thank you. The ends of the wire are just crimped together- sounds flakey, but really it`s very strong (much stronger than the chintzy chain I used). The rack presents no obstacle at all, the brakes were easier than it looks, but the fenders are turning out to be the challenge.

Fastale, you might be right. I thought about it a while and 24 chains worked out to an even 3 inches on paper, so that`s what I went with. Maybe I`ll put 28 or 30 on the next one.

Yes, it`s my second Shimano dyno and I love it. Not so thrilled about the Inoled light, but it does the job until I cave in and buy a Cyo.

I`d like to see yours if you find them, Nepbug. The only commercial ones I`ve even seen pics of are KoolStop Klaws








I guess they had them on the market before the invention of personal injury attorneys  
There are a few other homebrews I`ve seen on the net, mostly the same general method as I used.


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## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

rodar, there is no snow to speak of where I live so I haven't any comment on the chains except that it's awesome you made them yourself! however, I was scoping your front rack and the use of your canti bosses and i was wondering if the rack worked as a brake booster and if you noticed any difference in brake effectiveness after installing it?


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

No, I doubt the rack is stiff enough to funciton as a brake booster- the uprights go about five inches or so before they tie into the rest of the rack, so leverge is against it. If there`s some kind of minute difference, I haven`t noticed.


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## Plum (Sep 14, 2004)

Why not just use studded tires? 

Seems like the chains will be hard on tire casings, unless they're really tight, the squirm of the chain seems like it would eat through the sidewall, casing, etc.

Nice clean work though..

Plum


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Plum said:


> Why not just use studded tires?
> 
> Seems like the chains will be hard on tire casings, unless they're really tight, the squirm of the chain seems like it would eat through the sidewall, casing, etc.
> 
> ...


Yup that is where I am.

Chains are a pain in the ass, max speed on most trucks is about 30 km/h

Any faster and the centrif force pulls them apart...

The side slip is not well controlled by chains and that is the major problem for bikes.


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

rodar y rodar said:


> T
> Yes, it`s my second Shimano dyno and I love it. Not so thrilled about the Inoled light, but it does the job until I cave in and buy a Cyo.


$50-60 and you can build a 600 lumen light yourself. I've made four.








This one also charges USB.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Why not just use studs?
One answer is that I was hoping to get better snow traction. Having never used studs on a bicycle, I can`t say first hand, but I really doubt those little bits of carbide do any good for that. I know they don`t help at all on automotive tires even though they work wonders on ice and very hard packed snow. Unfortunately, it doesn`t look like my chains are going to do much either unless I went a lot bigger (like car chains) and then I`d run into the clunkety clunk stuff big time. I probably lack the horsepower to push that much, too.

Next answer is that I prefer not to spend $100 if I can avoid it and I don`t like most of the homebrew studs I`ve seen.

Finally, the argument that I can`t lose: it looked like fun and I got it in my head that I wanted to try it, so here I am.



jeffscott said:


> Yup that is where I am.
> 
> Chains are a pain in the ass, max speed on most trucks is about 30 km/h
> 
> ...


I can deal with a max speed of 30 KPH  Really, the chains I already put on my bike as well as the ones I`m working on now and any future ones are so tight and so light in comparison to truck chains that I forsee no problem whatsoever in the CF department. Except for really wanting to do this or at least give it a damned good effort, I agree that studs would probably be varying degrees better in 90% of the situations I`d want more than just rubber, but I`m not done experimenting yet and eventually I probably will buy or fab a set of studded tires. Or maybe chains in back and studs up front? Hmmm...

Schmucker: I`ve seen homebrew LED setups that I drool over bigtime. The problem is that I look at their explanations and it`s all Greek to me. I love DIY but that`s out of my league. I did build myself a couple of nice MR16 light sets that run off a dozen AA bats. Those were fun projects that worked out very well, but I don`t have the skills or knowledge to go further and I`m not interrested enough in electronics to spend a lot of time studying.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

*Current Situation*

I bought more chain yesterday (similar, but slightly heavier), moved my chain to the rear wheelthis morning and went out for another run. About five miles from home, my rear fender broke where the clips for the stays was riveted on. I already damaged it last summer when I ran over a stick that turned the whole fender inside out somehow and the added stress of the chains clicking against it must have been too much- it was pretty stupid to try riding that way anyway. Anyway, I took the fender off and headed home and when I got back I saw that the little chains were already very worn where they contact the road and just on the verge of ripping apart- after less than 20 miles. I`m not even going to try with the "heavy" chain I bought becaue there isn`t enough difference. It might be worth fifty miles, but that still won`t cut it.

Since I have to replace my fenders anyway, I`m going to go wider this time, which should give me a lot more clearance and make the job easier. With the extra space, I`m going to try with 4mm steel cables that I already have miles of. The general plan is two hoops with one more snaked back and forth from one side to the other. I went into work today (my day off, but that`s where my toys are) and made a bunch of crimps to fit the cables, but had to come home and get going on my honey do work.

Weather is not cooperating- we`re in a tropical heat wave and I bet it`s up to 50F today. All the roads have turned to mush. The plows are taking advantage of that and going back over everything again so either they`ll have it all cleaned up before it gets cold again or it`s going to be so full of frozen rutted nasties that I doubt I`ll ride until the next major change in conditions.


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## Gary the No-Trash Cougar (Oct 14, 2008)

rodar y rodar said:


> Or maybe chains in back and studs up front? Hmmm...


That's probably the best set-up, you'll get straight-line traction in the back and cornering traction up front.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

With the steel cable, could you just wrap the entire rim/tire candy cane style, maybe a lap in one direction and a lap in the other, so your cables cris-crossed on the tire like an argyle sock pattern? Not easy to remove, but it might do the trick.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

CommuterBoy said:


> With the steel cable, could you just wrap the entire rim/tire candy cane style,


Ummm... might be a problem with that "wrap the rim" part :nono:


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## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

rodar y rodar said:


> Ummm... might be a problem with that "wrap the rim" part :nono:


you would just have to learn how to apply your brake in quick, pulsated rhythms at just the right moment!


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

For straight up mtb snowbiking, it might be fine with no rear brake. Here`s a cool set by username "gosmsgo" that looks easy to build, easy (easier) to install and remove, and probably works great with any kind of hub brake:
















https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?353398-Plans-for-homemade-tire-chains
The other posters on the thread gave him a lot of flack about it for some reason, but it`s a great design IMO. Simplicity at its finest.


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## Gary the No-Trash Cougar (Oct 14, 2008)

rodar y rodar said:


> the other posters on the thread gave him a lot of flack about it for some reason,


Typical bikeforums.net. Last night I saw a thread in the mountain biking forum about how it seems like everybody has left that forum. I wanted to say "yeah, because you're all a bunch of a-holes."


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## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

That's why i left bikeforums! I really like the positive attitude here on the commuting forum. Hope I didn't come across the wrong way, was just joking about the idea of wrapping cable around a rim brake wheel, though I'm sure that's not what commuterboy had in mind!


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

I don`t know how you meant to come across, but I really did like the pulsing brake plan. If I saw off the ends of the pads, I`d get a little extra margin for error, too.

BF has its share of jerks, but so does mtbr, and any other site you might care to frequent. If you ever want to see major A-holes in action, take a peek at one of the immigration forums. I spent a lot of time on several of them while I was trying to get my wife back into the US. and I swear some of the posters were more hateful, intollerant, and bigoted than the USCIS jerks.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Sizzler said:


> That's why i left bikeforums! I really like the positive attitude here on the commuting forum. Hope I didn't come across the wrong way, was just joking about the idea of wrapping cable around a rim brake wheel, though I'm sure that's not what commuterboy had in mind!


That's exactly what I meant. I was picturing my bikes and momentarily forgot that he was dealing with rim brakes. I was pretty stoked on the idea for a minute there. It would totally work with discs.


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## thecrackerasscracker (Jan 12, 2008)

*why make them?*

I got these on ebay last year $20 shipped 
I dont remember what the name of the place was Im sure if you do a search you can find them


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

rodar y rodar said:


> Why not just use studs?
> One answer is that I was hoping to get better snow traction. Having never used studs on a bicycle, I can`t say first hand, but I really doubt those little bits of carbide do any good for that. I know they don`t help at all on automotive tires even though they work wonders on ice and very hard packed snow. Unfortunately, it doesn`t look like my chains are going to do much either unless I went a lot bigger (like car chains) and then I`d run into the clunkety clunk stuff big time. I probably lack the horsepower to push that much, too.
> 
> Next answer is that I prefer not to spend $100 if I can avoid it and I don`t like most of the homebrew studs I`ve seen.
> ...


So If you will give me a minute about bike tires and snow....

Basically regardless of the snow conditions the tire either sinks through, or floats on the snow.

It may sink through to hard ground, or another hard snow layer....

So lets just think about a bike tire plowing through fresh snow that is getting deeper and deeper...

At the start the tire makes contact with the pavement just as it would without snow, as the snow builds the front of the contact patch begins to lift off.....clearly this is not good so we would like deep knobbies say about 50% of the area or less, these knobs can penetrate through the building snow to the pavement...finally the tire lifts off the pavement....when this happens the snow must be compacted to a relatively high degree (remember a bike tire won't hydroplane)....now we are floating on a weakly conherent snow pack studs will help a little in this phase (just look at your tire tracks) with no slip the stud marks , and all the tire details are shown.

The thing is more often than not the hard surface is not pavement but previously compacted snow, with that layer the studs penetrate in and hold very well....

Interesting obsevations:

The 2.3 inch Freddie Revenz often "penetrates" soft snow longer than the 1.95 inch M&G cause they have longer smaller knobs.

The 1.95 inch M&G will sometimes penetrate better than the Freddie Revenz if the snow is compacted harder, (wetter snow).

Most skid and slip marks have relatively highly compacted snow beneath them (yes pavement is often visible too, but that is long after the tire as lost traction.

Without studs sometimes skidding the back wheel back and forth gets the tire down to the pavement and improves stopping power.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Jeff, I`ve been trying to get on here but I keep getting interrupted. I think I get the general idea of what you`re saying, though I might be misinterpreting some of it.

"as the snow builds the front of the contact patch begins to lift off.....clearly this is not good so we would like deep knobbies say about 50% of the area or less, these knobs can penetrate through the building snow to the pavement..."
Here, you`re talking about just plain old rubber mtb tires? As the snow gets deeper, where slicks have too much surface to cut all the way through, the knobs are able to reach the hard surface under the snow because they concentrate the weight on a much smaller area?

"...finally the tire lifts off the pavement....when this happens the snow must be compacted to a relatively high degree (remember a bike tire won't hydroplane)....now we are floating on a weakly conherent snow pack studs will help a little in this phase "
If I understand here, you`re saying that the fresh snow gets compacted enough just by the weight of the bike for the studs to work to some degree. It seems to me that if it`s FRESH SNOW, which the tires are still able to compact, the knobs on an mtb tire would grab a bigger part of it than the tiny carbide studs could grab. Since they`re continually compacting the snow into that "weakly cohesive snowpack", won`t they compact it to their own shape, knobs and all? It sounds like you have a lot of experience riding in crap conditions (probably a lot more than I do), but why do you think it`s the little studs that grab in the conditions that you just outlined and not the rubber? 

"The thing is more often than not the hard surface is not pavement but previously compacted snow, with that layer the studs penetrate in and hold very well...."
So many possiblilities for conditions of snow and ice! Provided the hard base is super hard, I have no doubt studs will be able to bite into it long after anything else can`t touch it. They`re so tiny that they put a huge amount of weight on a very small surface. But by being such a small point, that surface really needs to be HARD for those miniature "studprints" to hold, no? It`s the in between stuff that I`m hoping chains or cables will hold to better- too hard for soft rubber to recompact into its own form, but still soft enough for something harder to cut into. I doubt it ever gets so hard that studs won`t be able to cut in, but before that point there`s a big span of conditions that larger hard material should still be able to deform, and grab a bigger piece of than studs. My preliminary test runs seem to agree with this, but they`re still very limited. Have you ever tried chains or similar devices? If so, what kinds of conditions did they work well and work poorly in? Any big surprises where they didn`t act at all like you would have expected?


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Cracker, I`m really surprised to see commercial chains in this day and age- they seem like such a lawyer`s wet dream! Out of curiosity, were they new? Does it look to you like they were recently produced, and not sitting in a warehouse for many years?


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

rodar y rodar said:


> Jeff, I`ve been trying to get on here but I keep getting interrupted. I think I get the general idea of what you`re saying, though I might be misinterpreting some of it.
> 
> "as the snow builds the front of the contact patch begins to lift off.....clearly this is not good so we would like deep knobbies say about 50% of the area or less, these knobs can penetrate through the building snow to the pavement..."
> Here, you`re talking about just plain old rubber mtb tires?yup, with or without studs As the snow gets deeper, where slicks have too much surface to cut all the way through, the knobs are able to reach the hard surface under the snow because they concentrate the weight on a much smaller area?Yup
> ...


Never rode chains on a bike, only trucks, *by all means please go for it..*

In my estimation:

Pavement performance (Studs win).
Rolling resistance (Studs win).
Ice Patch Slip (Studs win). 
Light Fresh Snow (Studs win).
Deep Fresh Snow (Chains???)
Deep Car Snot (Chains)

Car Snot is purely a balance/line/momentum thing)

Frozen Clay (Studs)
Icy Gravel (Chains if they don't get ripped off)
Wear life (Studs win).

Let see I paid I think $60 bucks each for two M&Gs winter of 06/07, rode them about 6 months for each winter, except for 08/09 half on the Freddie Revenz. That is about 3000 km a winter....So what some 7000 plus km...

The first car snot episode I probably pushed half of it....

The last car snot episode I rode it all easily, past three guys squirming and walking, obivously thier first time in it....

I think maybe one had studs on, but two of them managed to get up on their bikes and follow me...at least for a little while....I think (hope) they figured out the technique.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

jeffscott said:


> I think maybe one had studs on, but two of them managed to get up on their bikes and follow me...at least for a little while....I think (hope) they figured out the technique.


From another thread:
"Sit way back let the front squirm all it wants steer with your hips kinda like a skinny or riding no hands, momentum is your friend.
When you look back the rear should be straighter than the front...."

In my case, I built the bike as a tourer with a very long reach, so can`t really get my weight back too far, but I`ll try this out to the extent that I`m able. It`s the complete oposite of what I`ve been doing up to now, so I`m interrested to see how it works for me.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

rodar y rodar said:


> From another thread:
> "Sit way back let the front squirm all it wants steer with your hips kinda like a skinny or riding no hands, momentum is your friend.
> When you look back the rear should be straighter than the front...."
> 
> In my case, I built the bike as a tourer with a very long reach, so can`t really get my weight back too far, but I`ll try this out to the extent that I`m able. It`s the complete oposite of what I`ve been doing up to now, so I`m interrested to see how it works for me.


-32 C Monday morning up to +6 C for the ride home Wednesday night,

I'll get to practice slushy car snot on the way home. with salt and ice.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Car snot acts a lot like deep sand, only faster. Keep the weight back and the gas on the floor, and let the front go where it wants. 

Just to stir the pot, I have found that in *some* car snot conditions (warmer temps, bordering on slush) my cyclocross tires/commuter bike do better than my mountain bike with serious knobbies. The thinner (I've used 35c and 28c) tires sink right down to the bottom and actually get to pavement, while the mtb tires want to float and wind up spinning. 

The same is true of vehicles. I've built a few Jeeps for my other off road addiction, and in most snow conditions (except packed/traveled/plowed conditions) there are definitely pros and cons to both skinny and fat tires. Consider my two last vehicles. First we have the seriously heavy Land Rover Discovery 1, which had all-terrain tires in a 9.5 inch width, which is very skinny by off-road standards. This tank of a vehicle on skinny tires sank right to the bottom and would power through the muck, because it was finding traction all the way down on the bottom, even with a less aggressive 'all terrain' lug pattern. My current Jeep is a Cherokee, which is a similar size but way lighter than the Discovery. It has 12.5" width tires on it. In those same conditions, my best bet is to air down the tires so the contact patch is huge, and it floats over the top...I'm relying on the giant lugs on my mud terrain tires to get ahold of the snow and power me through. 

My take is that on a bike in most conditions, you have no chance of 'floating' like my Jeep does. The contact patch is just way too small. Conditions vary so much it's hard to pin down, but I'm leaning towards skinny tires actually being better in most of the stuff I wind up riding in.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

CommuterBoy said:


> Car snot acts a lot like deep sand, only faster. Keep the weight back and the gas on the floor, and let the front go where it wants.
> 
> Just to stir the pot, I have found that in *some* car snot conditions (warmer temps, bordering on slush)not car snot that is what we call slop my cyclocross tires/commuter bike do better than my mountain bike with serious knobbies. The thinner (I've used 35c and 28c) tires sink right down to the bottom and actually get to pavement, while the mtb tires want to float and wind up spinning.
> 
> ...


Skinny or Fat tires just change the conditions at which the float happens, sometimes you want float sometimes you don't......just settle on something that works for you, but don't forget to try out the full range of options before you settle.


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## AlliKat (Apr 28, 2006)

I think one advantage to the chains is you can remove them if your snow/dry conditions change regularly. Around here, we typically have 0-15 snow days a year. That doesn't justify the expense and time of a studded tire.

For a homebrew tire chain, maybe it would work to make a fabric tire cover. Start with a 1000 denier nylon or something else tough. You could go as simple as to rivet for 'studs'. Or find a way to attach cord, wire or chain over the cloth. Sew an outer wire (or kevlar cord or something) on the edge of the cloth. 

If you could find a material more like ski climbing skins, it could work particularly well although you need multi-directional stability??


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## Skavenger (Mar 3, 2007)

*snow tires maybe an option*

I am running nokian's pretty sweet tire I must admit. When reading this forum about sinking in loose pack snow I was wondering if anyone has thought of trying to create a paddle tire? Maybe cutting a old tire into cross sections and screwing them into the tire lugs creating a scoop that I think would be flexible enough to roll yet create the desired floatation? Just an idea.


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## lalahsghost (Jul 4, 2007)

I just did a whole big post on some DIY snow tire chains and uploaded two videos with me riding with them on my fisher cobia 29er -

http://wvcycling.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/snow-tire-chain-bike/

Moderately detailed and it never hurts having moving footage in this modern day and age.


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