# Mantis XCR



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Pulled this down out of the "needs to be built pile" and took some shots of her. Thought you guys might enjoy it. The frame was built around 87 I think for pro rider Dan Diaz. I hope to be able to build it up soon.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Shiny. 

What kind of build are you going with?


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Yay!*

Pictures


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

sweet!!

When was that built?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> sweet!!
> 
> When was that built?


I'll defer to the Mantis experts but I think it was around 87. Shayne, does that sound about right?


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Late*

Possibly 'custom' built after general production of the XCR had stopped.

EDIT: could be '87 but I'd guess maybe '89-90ish based on the gussetts and cable guides.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Shiny.
> 
> What kind of build are you going with?


Not completely sure yet.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Shayne said:


> Possibly 'custom' built after general production of the XCR had stopped.
> 
> EDIT: could be '87 but I'd guess maybe '89ish based on the gussetts and cable guides.


Youre probably right Shayne as the gussets and cable guides are very similar to this which is at the earliest 89 right:


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Shiny.
> 
> What kind of build are you going with?


I'd have to go full XT, Araya's or Mavics.

Suntour might work too, but If its a rider go with the XT.

wonder with what they were spec'd with originally?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> I'd have to go full XT, Araya's or Mavics.
> 
> Suntour might work too, but If its a rider go with the XT.
> 
> wonder with what they were spec'd with originally?


I was thinking the same thing. Some polished RM-20s would probably look nice. Suntour would be nice too. I'd like to get a hold of Dan Diaz to get the full scoop.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Correct.*

The first EC was made in 1989 and was still using the older spherical closed cable guides.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Frame Only*

They were pretty much sold as framesets only and it was at the discression of the shop or buyer to build it up.

A M-73x group looks good on that frame. One of the complete bikes I picked up was built with full XT and Specialized rims, bars, tires, saddle.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Shayne said:


> The first EC was made in 1989 and was still using the older spherical closed cable guides.


Hmm. The things that make it seem older though are the double water bottle bosses on the down tube, the shoulder strap and the older stem (than the red EC bike)...

How bout that Dura Ace headset? Im pretty sure thats original, can anyone date that? I guess I could look for Shimano's stamp on it.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Double Bosses*

I think they all had the double bosses and shoulder strap braze-ons. Although a lot were built to order so there are differences.
Yes, I'd try to find the date on the DA headset but unfortunately I think you'd have to remove it to find the code. That is probably original. I think RC had a thing for DA headsets.
The stems you could get anytime and given that its a pro bike he possibly asked for or was given one.

It could be older and just got new cable guides when the paint was stripped and it got re-decaled.


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## mwr (Jul 17, 2004)

No serial number? Check the rear of the seat tube above the BB


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

mwr said:


> No serial number? Check the rear of the seat tube above the BB


Its got an odd one that I dont recall right now. I think its got a name in it or something.

MWR, I think its high time we see some of your Mantises. I know atleast one is a beauty. Dont be shy.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Its got an odd one that I dont recall right now. I think its got a name in it or something.


DANSX19

So, not helpful in trying to date it.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Shayne said:


> DANSX19
> 
> So, not helpful in trying to date it.


So basically he really needs to get a hold of Dan D. on this one.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

I think Suntour XCD would be the right vintage? The matte gray would look sweet against the silver too.


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## holden (Jul 27, 2004)

i sure could use one of those forks ...


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

You are going to need to find a bottle of Jed & Dan's Demon Semon to lube the chain when you get that built up. Last I heard Dan Diaz was in Flagstaff.


Doh, old resurrected thread


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

ssmike said:


> You are going to need to find a bottle of Jed & Dan's Demon Semon to lube the chain when you get that built up. Last I heard Dan Diaz was in Flagstaff.
> 
> Doh, old resurrected thread


I know Dan was in Flag last I saw him, of course that was like in 97 so things could definitely have changed. Does anyone know if he still with Golden, she was a cute little number.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

dan diaz as in skunk/rocket powered recumbent?

that was the name! got all confused when i saw a guy called fuzzy had won the cohutta 100 and saw a pic...met him in downieville once.

sorry OT ramblings...


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## alasa (Jan 28, 2004)

*mantis XCR*

Hi my old XCR EC probably the first one, prototype ( Shayne )
has cable hanger a little different


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## sho220 (Aug 3, 2005)

What's the purpose of the bolt-on seat stays? Is the rear end steel? If so, how would the front and rear triangle both be welded to the bottom bracket?


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*The Stays Are Steel*

And they bolt into the BB shell.
See Photo


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## sho220 (Aug 3, 2005)

Pretty cool...thanks for the pic...


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*On And To Answer Your Other Question*

The reasoning behind it was to offer some "suspension". The thin cro-mo rear end would flex to smooth things out a bit. Unfortunately in the case of the XCR-EC the tubing was a bit too thin and usually developed cracks. The Flying-V used larger diameter stays and faired better.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

i never realised they were joined to the bb like that.
did the bolts ever shear? seems there must be a lot of force perpendicular to the bolts insertion...hmm! i would have expected at least a cyclindrical mount for them to go into...but then i aint no engineer!


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

It was my understanding that it was for production purposes, mostly in the alignment phase. Heat treating and alignment was a big problem. Steel bolt on rear ends were easier to mfg.and replace. Plus they had a Cool Factor that was hard to beat. No rack mounts were ever put on as this was primarily a race bike.
There is also more room for short rear ends, ie: tire and chain ring clearance. Don't you just hate chainsuck?


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Nope, No Problems*

I can't say they never broke there but I've never heard of one.
The brazed joints and the thin "roadie" tubing were the weak points.

It is a tight fit in there though. The other ones I have all have arcs machined out of the bolt heads so the BB spindle will clear them.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

I never heard of any bolt shearing problems. I wasn't in the shop full time in that era though.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Cool*



geckocycles said:


> It was my understanding that it was for production purposes, mostly in the alignment phase. Heat treating and alignment was a big problem. Steel bolt on rear ends were easier to mfg.and replace. Plus they had a Cool Factor that was hard to beat. No rack mounts were ever put on as this was primarily a race bike.
> There is also more room for short rear ends, ie: tire and chain ring clearance. Don't you just hate chainsuck?


Thanks for the info KB. I hadn't heard that before but it makes perfect sence. It deffinatley had a short rear end for the time.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

geckocycles said:


> I never heard of any bolt shearing problems. I wasn't in the shop full time in that era though.


The seat stays prevented any shearing forces I would say.

Back in that time, the aluminum was said to make a softer riding frame. Another reason for the steel rear end was that people were a little leary of aluminum dropouts and der. hangers.

Maybe Datawhacker can share some of his articles on the early XCR that talk about the smooth riding aluminum.


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## mwr (Jul 17, 2004)

geckocycles said:


> I never heard of any bolt shearing problems. I wasn't in the shop full time in that era though.


KB, I think we need to hear about your time at Mantis. Please?


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Vertically but Not Horizontally*



Fillet-brazed said:


> The seat stays prevented any shearing forces I would say.


There is a fair amount of horizintal flex if you get out of the saddle and put power to the rear wheel.
But there is a fairly large contact area on the BB shell to disperse the load.



Fillet-brazed said:


> Back in that time, the aluminum was said to make a softer riding frame.


I'd agree with that except that the XCR was made with larger diameter(for the time) tubing and the front end was pretty stiff. Vitus and Alan and some of the early aluminum Trek frames were compliant but they all used pretty small tuubing.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

> There is a fair amount of horizintal flex if you get out of the saddle and put power to the rear wheel.
> But there is a fairly large contact area on the BB shell to disperse the load.


the horiz. forces though are quite small compared to the vertical loads one could put on a bike.



> I'd agree with that except that the XCR was made with larger diameter(for the time) tubing and the front end was pretty stiff. Vitus and Alan and some of the early aluminum Trek frames were compliant but they all used pretty small tuubing.


The whole theory about RC building that frame to have a stiff front triangle and a soft rear I had never heard until someone posted that on the forum about a year ago. Going out on a limb here, but I personally dont think that was RC's goal. Maybe he'll chime in here and prove me wrong. I think it was like Geckocycles said and also the scary non-replacable aluminum der. hanger and soft dropout factor. In fact, Im pretty sure one of the old XCR articles from the mid-80s states that the rear triangle was stiff and the front triangle having an absorptive quality...


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

*'85 and '86 XCR write-ups*

These are interesting:

http://www.mybikezoo.com/mantis/mantis_mtbike_aug85.pdf

http://www.mybikezoo.com/mantis/mantis_mtbike_dec86.pdf

(thanks to datawhacker)


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Working in the shop was great fun. RC and his dad are a hoot. We were always blowing something up and going for rides. I machined parts, mitered, set up tubes in jigs, made small parts like cable stops and canti bosses. Blasted, soaked, filed, drilled, aligned, applied decals, dropped off frames for paint and heat treatment. Learned, learned learned. I helped him out for 2 or three weeks in return I used his shop to make a frame jig. RC did all the tacking and welding. 

We were constantly throwing ideas at each other.

I later supplied Mantis with allot of braze ons, screw on stops, tapered plugs, integral seat binders and BB shells.

RC was a best man at my wedding in "90 in SB back country.

RC water crossing at Clunker Classic. One of a series of 4 shots.
RC Crested Butte Race.
RC, Dave Epperson, and Margret. Crested Butte on the Perl Pass Tour.

Mark Grayson needs cudos too. He worked for RC and did boat loads of work. Here is a photo of him at a Brian Skinner race. I think it was the "Earth Quake" race.


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Name that woman on the XCR in the aug85 link.


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## mwr (Jul 17, 2004)

Hmm... Martina Navratilova.




I don't know.


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## datawhacker (Dec 23, 2004)

Carol Bauer


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

Good Job!!


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## datawhacker (Dec 23, 2004)

I kind of cheated, since I had the magazine


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

my memorys really hazy here, so please dont flame me for innocent questions  
The XCR does seem to share some traits with the fisher CR7. Fisher copied mantis? In the UK at least the CR7 was a lot more well known back then.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*RC Licensed the Design To Fisher*

Mantis had stopped making the non-elevated version by that time.


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## mwr (Jul 17, 2004)

And legend has it that the 'CR' in CR7 were RC's initials in reverse order.

Not sure what the 7 was for.


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

thanks for info guys


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mwr said:


> And legend has it that the 'CR' in CR7 were RC's initials in reverse order.
> 
> Not sure what the 7 was for.


The number of seconds he spent thinking of a creative name for the bike.


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## alasa (Jan 28, 2004)

My XCR is on the way,
some components and it's finish


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## geckocycles (Sep 3, 2006)

The whole rear is CroMo and both SS and CS are bolted on


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## 3 Pin (Dec 25, 2005)

Nice, brings back great memories. I got one in the fall of 85, just in time for Crested Butte. Mine was a 20" Canary yellow, built with:
Suntour XC Pro, including seatpost, pedals and rollercams
Specialized hubs
RM20 rims
Specialized headset
Phil Wood BB
Ground Control tires
Concor Max saddle
It also had the portage strap

I bought it from The Outdoorsman in Durango which is now Mtn Bike Specialists.

Thanks
Robb


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Don't suppose you have a photo of it.


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## 3 Pin (Dec 25, 2005)

The only picture I have is me racing it at Iron Horse in 86 and it's from so far away you can barely tell it's me.

Robb


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## lazyracer (Apr 11, 2004)

My Son Geoffrey is still riding my 1988 "Kawasaki day-glo green" XCR in New York City, I gave it to him a few years ago as a gift. 


'lazyracer' 
Jim Harlow


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## Arran (Jan 27, 2006)

*Fleabay score*

I just won a '91 CR7 on Fleabay. Picking it up tomorrow. Very excited...

Might get a chance to post up pics soon...


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## demondan (Jul 25, 2008)

I am the Dan in dansx19


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