# Stiffest flat soled trail shoe?



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I've got two seasons on the RC Hellion and it's getting too soft, so it's time for a new shoe.

I truly want a stiff sole, the stiffer the better, never met a shoe that was too stiff.

I looked at Leatt, but they don't see to be available in sz 13.

The first gen Specialized 2FO was nice, but the recent version is softer.

Shimano GR9 got soft fast, more like slippers now, use em on my spin bike.

Loved my Teva, but they're long gone

Any other suggestions?

Not interested in Five Ten/Addidas. Sorry, not looking for an argument, just had way to many returns for delamination, so I won't buy their shoes in the foreseeable future.


----------



## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

The Giro was really stiff but I wasn't happy with the rubber in winter weather. Need to give them another go now that it is warmer.


----------



## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

I am very interested in this as well. I love my Teva Links. They are still functional but have more glue holding them together than I care to take on any serious ride. I picked up some 5.10 Freeriders on sale to replace them and they are just ok.


----------



## mpress (Jan 30, 2012)

I've been riding on the NorthWave Clan flat pedal shoe. Its got a stiffer sole than the 5.10 Freerider. Its also grippier and has a more durable sole than the Giro Jacket.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I just got some Ride Concepts Livewires and I think they are pretty darn stiff. I wish they had a little more flex, but I'll either get used to it for they'll break in over time.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

mpress said:


> I've been riding on the NorthWave Clan flat pedal shoe. Its got a stiffer sole than the 5.10 Freerider. Its also grippier and has a more durable sole than the Giro Jacket.


How stiff is stiff?

I've never met a shoe that was too stiff. I once took a stiff soled cleated shoe and had a cobbler add a vibram sole, true story.


----------



## nickwm21 (Aug 15, 2007)

Doesn’t superfeet make a cycling/ice specific insole that would stiffen up a 5.10...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2wheelrevolution (Nov 1, 2006)

The Wildcat feels a bit stiffer than the Hellion.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

2wheelrevolution said:


> The Wildcat feels a bit stiffer than the Hellion.


No it's not, I had a set of Wildcats, they are soft like the Livewire and they have issues with riveted eyelet rubbing the ankle bone and the velcro strap causing instep pain, I returned mine after a season and RC gave me a credit so I got some Hellions.

The Hellions are great shoes, but they're getting too soft, but still wearing strong.

I've tried insole stiffeners, they make for a hard riding shoe, best bet is a stiffener molded into the midsole.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> No it's not, I had a set of Wildcats, they are soft like the Livewire and they have issues with riveted eyelet rubbing the ankle bone and the velcro strap causing instep pain, I returned mine after a season and RC gave me a credit so I got some Hellions.
> 
> The Hellions are great shoes, but they're getting too soft, but still wearing strong.
> 
> I've tried insole stiffeners, they make for a hard riding shoe, best bet is a stiffener molded into the midsole.


I agree that there should be someone making a supported insole with a stiffener in the midsole.

I have a pair of these https://sofsole.implus.com/products/support-insoles/fit-series-high-arch-support-insoles that has a carbon cup from the heel to the mid foot and used them in my vans. If they went a little more to the toes they would be perfect for stiffening for bikes.

I almost wonder if a ski specific insole could be the ticket. They are often stiffer through the whole foot as flex is not needed in the boot.


----------



## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

Curious...

When the shoe softens, do you feel "aching" in your arches/instep on long rides (and especially long descents)?

Trying to figure out if my 5.10 Contacts just go soft really quick (2nd pair), or if I'm fighting plantar fasciitis again


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

More sole wrap, arch fatigue, end up moving my foot around to reduce discomfort.

Much more noticeable when coming new and old shoes.

As for inserts, I've tried them, they are t comfortable and tens to make the shoes too tight and make my my soles sore.

I might give those Northwavecs ****, the mud stole stiffener is the right idea, just don't know if they're stiff enough and whether they'll stay stiff over time.

Edit: Northwave on the way, two sizes, only Jensen seems to carry the size range. Review to follow ...



06HokieMTB said:


> Curious...
> 
> When the shoe softens, do you feel "aching" in your arches/instep on long rides (and especially long descents)?
> 
> Trying to figure out if my 5.10 Contacts just go soft really quick (2nd pair), or if I'm fighting plantar fasciitis again


----------



## garcia (Apr 10, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> More sole wrap, arch fatigue, end up moving my foot around to reduce discomfort.
> 
> Much more noticeable when coming new and old shoes.
> 
> ...


I'll want to hear your thoughts when you try them. Seem to be gone in my size, but maybe they'll be back. I am actually going to give clips another try, as I am getting some pain from my 5/10's that I believe is due to sole flex, the balls of my feet are killing me at the end of rides, and I long for the stiffness of my 10 year old S-works mtb shoes.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> How stiff is stiff?
> 
> I've never met a shoe that was too stiff. I once took a stiff soled cleated shoe and had a cobbler add a vibram sole, true story.


It's funny how opinions vary widely when talking about grip and stiffness. I found the north wave clan to have mediocre grip at best, and not stiff enough for me. They really weren't stiff at all. I bought them for rigidity based on reviews but wasn't impressed. Nothing I've tired matches the first 2fo. Second to those would be Ion Raid Amp 2 but they are also discontinued. You might want to explore aftermarket insoles? I don't think any dedicated flat shoe is going to be stiff enough for you. Stiff isn't popular. More people want feel. I want stiff too. First 2f0 resoled with 5.10 was the best shoes I've owned. Adidas has cut off access to resole kits, and spec has dramatically softened up the 2fo. I have a pair of the 2.0's. I don't like them, though they are super light with a great heel cup. If you find an aftermarket insole option that stiffens up your shoes let me know.


----------



## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

510s wore fast but just bought a newer version - we’ll see. Shimanos not as stiff and I am between sizes. Specialized was not available. 

Just started using Tmac pedals. I need a large platform but these stand above the rest. And they should because they are silly expensive. When I first started using them, I forgot I wasn’t clipped in. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

Definitely not the 510 Trailcrosses. They're noticeable flexier than the Freeriders.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

slimat99 said:


> It's funny how opinions vary widely when talking about grip and stiffness. I found the north wave clan to have mediocre grip at best, and not stiff enough for me. They really weren't stiff at all. I bought them for rigidity based on reviews but wasn't impressed. Nothing I've tired matches the first 2fo. Second to those would be Ion Raid Amp 2 but they are also discontinued. You might want to explore aftermarket insoles? I don't think any dedicated flat shoe is going to be stiff enough for you. Stiff isn't popular. More people want feel. I want stiff too. First 2f0 resoled with 5.10 was the best shoes I've owned. Adidas has cut off access to resole kits, and spec has dramatically softened up the 2fo. I have a pair of the 2.0's. I don't like them, though they are super light with a great heel cup. If you find an aftermarket insole option that stiffens up your shoes let me know.


Agreed, I had two pairs of the gen one 2FO, great shoe, roomy, retained stiffness, lasted a season or more, maybe the sole wore faster than some, but a good shoe. I tried the new 2FO and it's not the same shoe.

I have the Northwave coming, if they're soft then they go back.

It's a shame the Five Ten rubber is no longer for same, that woudl be worthwhile as a resole option on a softer cleated shoe. One of the issues with cleated shoes is finding one that is flat.


----------



## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

slimat99 said:


> It's funny how opinions vary widely when talking about grip and stiffness. I found the north wave clan to have mediocre grip at best, and not stiff enough for me. They really weren't stiff at all. I bought them for rigidity based on reviews but wasn't impressed. Nothing I've tired matches the first 2fo. Second to those would be Ion Raid Amp 2 but they are also discontinued. You might want to explore aftermarket insoles? I don't think any dedicated flat shoe is going to be stiff enough for you. Stiff isn't popular. More people want feel. I want stiff too. First 2f0 resoled with 5.10 was the best shoes I've owned. Adidas has cut off access to resole kits, and spec has dramatically softened up the 2fo. I have a pair of the 2.0's. I don't like them, though they are super light with a great heel cup. If you find an aftermarket insole option that stiffens up your shoes let me know.


I agree the v1 2FO was one of the stiffest. I think it also had to do the entire body of the shoe being stiff as well as the sole.

You may want to contact the people at https://www.unparallelsports.com/ for resole options. Great group, some ties back to OE 5.10. Their rubber is some of the best next to the OE 5.10 I have tried. In fact their high-top kinda med-stiff and great rubber.

Perhaps a SPD shoe resoled to flat pedal sole (not even sure how that would work) may be something for the people looking for the stiffest platform.

Personally I like some give and relay on big plat form pedals like the One Up. I prefer the toe box nose to be stiff for rock strikes.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So I got a pair of the Northwave Clan yesterday, bright blue with orange trim, sz 46. 

Out of the box they are quite possibly the stiffest non SPD shoe I have tried, even after I flexed the hell out of them, they were quite stiff. 

Stiffness in the forefoot as if it has a "rcok guard", firm and stiff in the arch, hard rubber sole (will it be grippy?), nice toe box protection. 

Downsides: Narrow throughout and shallow heel pocket. I have a sz 48 arriving today, hopefully they're not too big.

I typically wear a sz 13-14 street shoe, so I wouldn't say they fit small, more of a narrow last.

Hopefully I'll ride feedback tonight!

Also looking to upgrade pedals from RF to Deity TMac


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

First ride: stiffest shoe I’ve ridden since I made a flat sole shoe out of a pair of SPD shoes!

The Sz 48 was too long, so I stayed with the sz 46, though they run narrow, the fit us okay.

Sticky enough to make me happy, didn’t slip once in a tricky tech ride.

Shoes walk nicely due to have a soft midsole at the heel.

These are very well made shoes, if they soften I’ll be surprised.

Northwave Clan for the win!


----------



## sonicreducer (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm actually wanting to change to Flat pedals after years of running clipless , starting to go for rough trails . 
looking at Northwave enduro , because the sole seems pretty nice if i need to walk somenthing ( mud and stuff) they do bring a cover on the cleat hole . 
Anyone has any experience or are there any options of a flat shoe that the sole that doesn't act like a skate has soon you put your feet on the ground  
thank you


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> Agreed, I had two pairs of the gen one 2FO, great shoe, roomy, retained stiffness, lasted a season or more, maybe the sole wore faster than some, but a good shoe. I tried the new 2FO and it's not the same shoe.
> 
> I have the Northwave coming, if they're soft then they go back.
> 
> It's a shame the Five Ten rubber is no longer for same, that woudl be worthwhile as a resole option on a softer cleated shoe. One of the issues with cleated shoes is finding one that is flat.


Specialized has great R&D. The main reason I think there are no options that will satisfy you right now is because spec dialed in the perfect flat pedal platform but people complained. As you know, the result of those complaints is the 2.0 which is floppy. Majority rules. We are in the minority in wanting a firm pedal platform. I hope you can live with the NW shoes. I've given up and just make due with what's available. I have 2f0 2.0's, nearly worn out ion raid amp 2, and beat down FR pro's. Out of those, the ion's pedal the best by a good margin. I would give ion's a look. They are making quality shoes. They have a great snug fit, tight heel cup, good rubber compound, and a nice pedal platform. The problem is they replaced the raid with the scrub. NW is making high quality shoes too, I just couldn't get along with mine.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

sonicreducer said:


> I'm actually wanting to change to Flat pedals after years of running clipless , starting to go for rough trails .
> looking at Northwave enduro , because the sole seems pretty nice if i need to walk somenthing ( mud and stuff) they do bring a cover on the cleat hole .
> Anyone has any experience or are there any options of a flat shoe that the sole that doesn't act like a skate has soon you put your feet on the ground
> thank you


The problem with using cleated shoes is the sole is typical harder, esp the cleat cover AND the soles have rocker (makes walking in a stiff sole easier and improves in/out).

The Northwave Clan is stiff, Jensen has them in stock, runs narrower but true to size lengthwise. It hikes nice, good quality, decent traction on the pedal.

FYI: Going from clipless to flats can lead to a lot of shin and calf injuries until you adjust, so a set of shin guards is a good call. After years of riding flats, I still wear shin guards.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

slimat99 said:


> Specialized has great R&D. The main reason I think there are no options that will satisfy you right now is because spec dialed in the perfect flat pedal platform but people complained. As you know, the result of those complaints is the 2.0 which is floppy. Majority rules. We are in the minority in wanting a firm pedal platform. I hope you can live with the NW shoes. I've given up and just make due with what's available. I have 2f0 2.0's, nearly worn out ion raid amp 2, and beat down FR pro's. Out of those, the ion's pedal the best by a good margin. I would give ion's a look. They are making quality shoes. They have a great snug fit, tight heel cup, good rubber compound, and a nice pedal platform. The problem is they replaced the raid with the scrub. NW is making high quality shoes too, I just couldn't get along with mine.


I think you missed my post about the Northwave Clan: They are stiff and I like them


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Off topic question. Why do you want stiff shoes?
After 4 clipless shoes and a $50 insole i'm still struggling with toe pain and numbness so I want to go back to flats. I didn't have this issues with flats and random street shoes in the past, although I did shorter rides back then. I think it's the stiffness of SPD shoes that causes the pain for me, but i'm not a 100% sure.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

HollyBoni said:


> Off topic question. Why do you want stiff shoes?
> After 4 clipless shoes and a $50 insole i'm still struggling with toe pain and numbness so I want to go back to flats. I didn't have this issues with flats and random street shoes in the past, although I did shorter rides back then. I think it's the stiffness of SPD shoes that causes the pain for me, but i'm not a 100% sure.


With a flat soled shoe, the pedal pressure can cause the shoe to fold or press the midsole into the arch, causing pain. SPD shoes have enough sole support to prevent shoe deformation, but you can still have pressure points.

I've had fair luck with shoes, but they typically lose their stiffness over a season or two, which sucks because the body and sole are often still good for more use.

Toe pain and numbness in an SPD shoe is more likely due to fit, though you could be getting pain from pulling up on the pedal, I suspect you just have a poorly fitting shoe.

So even though I'm looking for a stiffer flat sole shoe, I would not want a shoe as stiff as an SPD shoe because it wouldn't grip well and it would feel like I was riding with a block of wood on my feet. There's always a compromise, more shoe wrap equals more control and friction, but more shoe wrap also means less comfort on long rides.

The shoe that works well for all day epics is probably not the shoe you'll take to the pump track.


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> With a flat soled shoe, the pedal pressure can cause the shoe to fold or press the midsole into the arch, causing pain. SPD shoes have enough sole support to prevent shoe deformation, but you can still have pressure points.
> 
> I've had fair luck with shoes, but they typically lose their stiffness over a season or two, which sucks because the body and sole are often still good for more use.
> 
> ...


Great, thanks for the info.

Sadly the toe pain has been the exact same with 4 different pairs of shoes on 2 different bikes. I played around with cleat positioning as well. My feet are a bit weird, I think they just don't like clipless.


----------



## sonicreducer (Mar 29, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> The problem with using cleated shoes is the sole is typical harder, esp the cleat cover AND the soles have rocker (makes walking in a stiff sole easier and improves in/out).
> 
> The Northwave Clan is stiff, Jensen has them in stock, runs narrower but true to size lengthwise. It hikes nice, good quality, decent traction on the pedal.
> 
> FYI: Going from clipless to flats can lead to a lot of shin and calf injuries until you adjust, so a set of shin guards is a good call. After years of riding flats, I still wear shin guards.


Thanks for the tip, 
Let me check those nortwave

Sent from my SM-T720 using Tapatalk


----------



## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> The Northwave Clan is stiff, Jensen has them in stock, runs narrower but true to size lengthwise. It hikes nice, good quality, decent traction on the pedal.


Damn. I bought the Freerider Contacts due to their width (and because they were stiffer than the OG Freeriders). The Freerider Pro's are supposedly stiffer than my Contacts, but also narrower.

I was all about the Northwave Clan's, but my foot is far from narrow


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

HollyBoni said:


> Great, thanks for the info.
> 
> Sadly the toe pain has been the exact same with 4 different pairs of shoes on 2 different bikes. I played around with cleat positioning as well. My feet are a bit weird, I think they just don't like clipless.


I'd go see a pediatrist, that doesn't sound right, could be an injury or something anatomical.

If you must ride clipless, look at pedals with more float.

Have you tried running your shoes loose? Folks who ride clipless tend to run their shoes tight like a ski boot.

I think clipless are bad for your hips, knees, legs, feet, but no one listens to me ?


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'd go see a pediatrist, that doesn't sound right, could be an injury or something anatomical.
> 
> If you must ride clipless, look at pedals with more float.
> 
> ...


I went to a doctor years ago because of flat feet. They just gave me flat feet insoles and that's it. Otherwise my feet are okay in everyday life, nowadays I think my arches are at a normal height, maybe even a bit high. I still wear flat feet insoles, and for my SPD shoes I bought $50 Icebug insoles which were recommended online by a bike fitter who said they're especially good for toe numbness and pain.
I tried to wear my shoes looser, tighter, tight on the top, loose on the bottom. Nothing helps.
Clipless is great but at this point i'm a bit fed up with it because of the toe pain. Maybe new pedals would help. Some people with similar issues recommended $300 carbon shoes. Maybe those would help as well. Or maybe I would spend a bunch of money again on shoes and pedals just to have the same issues. 
I think i'm gonna go back to flats now and revisit clipless when i'll have a bunch of money laying around to try a bunch of shoes and pedals.  Not sure if that's ever gonna happen tho.


----------



## 839138 (Jun 7, 2018)

Nurse Ben said:


> Have you tried running your shoes loose? Folks who ride clipless tend to run their shoes tight like a ski boot.
> 
> I think clipless are bad for your hips, knees, legs, feet, but no one listens to me 


Hey, lately I've actually been thinking the same. I even switched back to flats on my road bike. I'm sort of in the camp that you can cause more harm than good with cleats if you haven't had a proper bike fit, and 99% of us are not professional-level athletes with that sort of access. I sort of wonder if normal e.g. not clips or toe straps pedals will make a come back across the board. Plus, on longer rides isn't there some evidence that being able to freely move your foot around is helpful?

I have wide feet though, and trying a few different pairs of spd and spd-sl over the years (for road) never felt good at my forefoot. On my road bike now I run mks (rivendell) grip monarchs with a pair of light/wide SOM shoes. It fits like a glove and the pedals are long enough to support my arches. Pretty sure I trigger roadies when I pass them on climbs using flat pedals and sneakers.

One aspect that seems to be neglected is the pedal shape and size. I was getting sore feet on longer rides on my mtn bike with a variety of shoes (including trail run shoes and even a pair of 5.10s) on RF chesters. I recently swapped to some much wider shimano platforms and it's been a huge difference, so much so that I actually don't seem to notice as much the sole stiffness and just use normal trail running shoes.


----------



## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

rockcrusher said:


> I agree that there should be someone making a supported insole with a stiffener in the midsole.
> 
> I have a pair of these https://sofsole.implus.com/products/support-insoles/fit-series-high-arch-support-insoles that has a carbon cup from the heel to the mid foot and used them in my vans. If they went a little more to the toes they would be perfect for stiffening for bikes.
> 
> I almost wonder if a ski specific insole could be the ticket. They are often stiffer through the whole foot as flex is not needed in the boot.


They sound great for me, RC. Of course they be out of stock...


----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

HollyBoni said:


> Great, thanks for the info.
> 
> Sadly the toe pain has been the exact same with 4 different pairs of shoes on 2 different bikes. I played around with cleat positioning as well. My feet are a bit weird, I think they just don't like clipless.


have you tried large platform clipless pedals?


----------



## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> Have you tried running your shoes loose? Folks who ride clipless tend to run their shoes tight like a ski boot.


Now there's something I hadn't considered... I do wrench my MTB shoes down tight, likely as a result of being used to a "firm handshake" ski boot fit.


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

theMISSIONARY said:


> have you tried large platform clipless pedals?


I tried SPD-SLs, same issue. Haven't tried stuff like Crankbrothers Mallets. I was thinking about trying Mallets, i'm just afraid to spend a 100$+ again on stuff that might not work.
This might be another issue because of my weird feet or maybe I just miss the feel of flats. But I noticed that when I stand up on the bike and coast/descend, my feet feel weird. I get a bit of pain, and my foot just feels stiff and "locked out" (can't explain it better) and it feels like i'm standing on a plank of wood. It's very strange.  When I hop on my grocery getter with crappy tiny 5$ flat pedals and my street shoes, everything just feels normal and comfy...


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

HollyBoni said:


> I tried SPD-SLs, same issue. Haven't tried stuff like Crankbrothers Mallets. I was thinking about trying Mallets, i'm just afraid to spend a 100$+ again on stuff that might not work.
> This might be another issue because of my weird feet or maybe I just miss the feel of flats. But I noticed that when I stand up on the bike and coast/descend, my feet feel weird. I get a bit of pain, and my foot just feels stiff and "locked out" (can't explain it better) and it feels like i'm standing on a plank of wood. It's very strange.  When I hop on my grocery getter with crappy tiny 5$ flat pedals and my street shoes, everything just feels normal and comfy...


This ^ doesn't sound strange at all, it sounds like you're riding clipless shoes.

I like being able to move my feet around, it's easier to get comfortable.

Just get a nice fitting shoe and some supportive pedals.


----------



## 839138 (Jun 7, 2018)




----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

HollyBoni said:


> I tried SPD-SLs, same issue. Haven't tried stuff like Crankbrothers Mallets. I was thinking about trying Mallets, i'm just afraid to spend a 100$+ again on stuff that might not work.
> This might be another issue because of my weird feet or maybe I just miss the feel of flats. But I noticed that when I stand up on the bike and coast/descend, my feet feel weird. I get a bit of pain, and my foot just feels stiff and "locked out" (can't explain it better) and it feels like i'm standing on a plank of wood. It's very strange.  When I hop on my grocery getter with crappy tiny 5$ flat pedals and my street shoes, everything just feels normal and comfy...


i have SPD's and crank bro's candys both make me feel like i have a pressure point in the arch of my foot on descents...tried a set of old ATAC time DH pedals with the same shimano shoes ....same thing but a bit different, got sick of it and put flats(DMR v12's ,shoes 510's) on my Reign and my HT but left the Time pedals on the SS and gravel bike.

the price for trying out some clips with a large cage is high but i "think" it might work well having pin's to adjust and give a wider area to load up....might be worth a try if not sell them


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

loren90 said:


>


That was odd.


----------

