# Geoman Gear Gone??



## Baja Designs (Aug 3, 2010)

Just read about Geoman Gear being done, that is too bad because they seemed like the only Magicshine retailer in the industry that stood behind what they sold.

It looks like they are still taking care of warranties and are able to be contacted through their website. I have met a couple of their guys at 24hr races and they were nice people.

I wish you all the best in the future.

Shannon

Here's the website link: Geomangear - Lighting the way!


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## billmania (Nov 20, 2008)

well that fricking sucks.


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

Sad news indeed. My hats off to a stand up company.


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## SAVAGESAM (Jan 14, 2008)

Sad news for all bikers.


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## afletcher (Oct 12, 2005)

That is bad news. I just bought another lighthead from them last week, and was thinking about getting another battery and charger. I do respect them for the effort and cost that they went through with the battery recall. But I suspect ultimately that was what no doubt pushed them into the current situation.


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## FSR.Dude (Feb 26, 2011)

Just got here to confirm this news, after visiting their website a few minutes ago. This is very, very sad news. The GeoManGear folks have always been upbeat, friendly, attentive, and the kind of folks with whom you always looked forward to doing business. I didn't need another light, but due to the huge hit they took from this battery recall, I was just at their website trying to buy an MJ-872 light from them to help offset the costs of exchanging my 4 MagicShine batteries. 

I look forward to hearing from the people of this company again, after they reinvent themselves. They have a long-term customer in me because they have truly earned my business through offering excellent quality products at affordable prices, and outstanding customer service.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

FSR.Dude said:


> Just got here to confirm this news, after visiting their website a few minutes ago. This is very, very sad news. The GeoManGear folks have always been upbeat, friendly, attentive, and the kind of folks with whom you always looked forward to doing business. I didn't need another light, but due to the huge hit they took from this battery recall, I was just at their website trying to buy an MJ-872 light from them to help offset the costs of exchanging my 4 MagicShine batteries.
> 
> I look forward to hearing from the people of this company again, after they reinvent themselves. They have a long-term customer in me because they have truly earned my business through offering excellent quality products at affordable prices, and outstanding customer service.


The huge hit they took was because Magicshine wouldn't stand behind their own crap batteries and designs so they got stuck holding the bag and probably didn't have good product liability insurance when Magicshine ran for the hills.

The last thing anyone should do is buy from Magicshine if this is how they treat their customers (their dealers are their customers) and ultimately their end users.

J.


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## Whatbrakes (Nov 17, 2010)

FSR.Dude said:


> .
> 
> I look forward to hearing from the people of this company again, after they reinvent themselves. They have a long-term customer in me because they have truly earned my business through offering excellent quality products at affordable prices, and outstanding customer service.


I agree:thumbsup:



JohnJ80 said:


> The huge hit they took was because Magicshine wouldn't stand behind their own crap batteries and designs so they got stuck holding the bag and probably didn't have good product liability insurance when Magicshine ran for the hills.
> 
> The last thing anyone should do is buy from Magicshine if this is how they treat their customers (their dealers are their customers) and ultimately their end users.
> 
> J.


My recalled battery still works fine. I thought about sending it in very early when the scare was happening but decided just to keep using it as it never had showed any signs of getting too hot but I never lefted it plugd in for days charging like I heard some have done.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

Whatbrakes said:


> My recalled battery still works fine. I thought about sending it in very early when the scare was happening but decided just to keep using it as it never had showed any signs of getting too hot but I never lefted it plugd in for days charging like I heard some have done.


Same here. I kept mine in a shed which is detached from my house and used it for over 2 years and never had an issue. This year I will have to retire that battery I think though b/c it looks like the wires are getting flimsy and the cheap plastic around them is all tearing off. I got my use out out it by now anyway. Meanwhile my older Lupine packs with much more use on them still look mint and are still going strong. Quality matters!


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## Whatbrakes (Nov 17, 2010)

MaximusHQ said:


> Same here. I kept mine in a shed which is detached from my house and used it for over 2 years and never had an issue. This year I will have to retire that battery I think though b/c it looks like the wires are getting flimsy and the cheap plastic around them is all tearing off. I got my use out out it by now anyway. Meanwhile my older Lupine packs with much more use on them still look mint and are still going strong. Quality matters!


If the battery is working fine still, maybe trying to put heat shrink back on the wires will fix the flimy wiring problem.

Heat Shrink Tubing (3/16 in.) from Gardner Bender | The Home Depot - Model HST-187


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

Hope they reconsider. I don't really need anything but I'm willing drop a few hundred bucks and go nuts shopping on their website.


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## manbeer (Oct 14, 2009)

Dictatorsaurus said:


> Hope they reconsider. I don't really need anything but I'm willing drop a few hundred bucks and go nuts shopping on their website.


Likewise!


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## FSR.Dude (Feb 26, 2011)

Whatbrakes and MaximusHQ - Yeah, me too. None of my 4 batteries ever felt particularly warm to the touch while charging, and they performed very well, so I was very surprised by the recall. I waited till the last few days of the recall to send in my recycle document to receive my new batteries, but considered not bothering with it -- I expected that this recall would probably overwhelm the good folks at GeoManGear. However, just to be on the safe side, I went ahead. The new batteries do look very nice, sturdier, better manufactured than the Chinese ones, and I hope they last a good long while. 2 of my original chargers, however, are defective and I had to throw them away.


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## POG (May 20, 2004)

So all these companies are still selling the cheapo batteries and only geoman recalled batteries? I have to assume there was never really a (significant) safety issue or there would be a required recall or at least a prohibition of selling these batteries in the US.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Whatbrakes said:


> If the battery is working fine still, maybe trying to put heat shrink back on the wires will fix the flimy wiring problem.
> 
> Heat Shrink Tubing (3/16 in.) from Gardner Bender | The Home Depot - Model HST-187


Yes, Magicshine have seen the error in their (earlier) ways and have coated the whole battery in a nice, tight rubber sheath with butted end piece and tight fitting wire exit hole. A few drops of silicone gel spread around those two areas would make the thing pretty much watertight.



FSR.Dude said:


> Whatbrakes and MaximusHQ - Yeah, me too. None of my 4 batteries ever felt particularly warm to the touch while charging, and they performed very well, so I was very surprised by the recall. I waited till the last few days of the recall to send in my recycle document to receive my new batteries, but considered not bothering with it -- I expected that this recall would probably overwhelm the good folks at GeoManGear. However, just to be on the safe side, I went ahead. The new batteries do look very nice, sturdier, better manufactured than the Chinese ones, and I hope they last a good long while. 2 of my original chargers, however, are defective and I had to throw them away.


To be honest, I have never felt any of my four Magicshine batteries become even the slightest bit warm during charging. My chargers are rather stately 1.8A efforts, which considering the 4400mAh nominal capacity means a charging rate of 0.4C! I think if a battery gets even slightly warm charging at this rate, it's probably faulty, since in a healthy battery, the VAST majority of the energy should be converted to stored charge.



POG said:


> So all these companies are still selling the cheapo batteries and only geoman recalled batteries? I have to assume there was never really a (significant) safety issue or there would be a required recall or at least a prohibition of selling these batteries in the US.


Yes, but it only takes a few "vent with flame" accidents a year to flag something as dangerous. Look at the "iNcendiary iPhone"

Brazil iPhone 4 catches fire.

World news worthy?... the second fire in a week amongst how many sold? Still it wouldn't have taken many more fires to have had Apple issuing a mandatory recall.


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## Baja Designs (Aug 3, 2010)

manbeer said:


> Likewise!


I know a good little company that's been around for 20 years and makes sweet lights that'd be more than happy help you guys spend a few hundo...:ihih:


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## firebook23 (Jan 17, 2010)

Sad day 

They where great people. I sure hope they start again. Their Customer service was worth the slightly sub -par quality of the Magicshine lights. 

I was just going to send a friend there to buy some lights... now where do I go? 800-1000 lumen for around $100


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

POG said:


> So all these companies are still selling the cheapo batteries and only geoman recalled batteries? I have to assume there was never really a (significant) safety issue or there would be a required recall or at least a prohibition of selling these batteries in the US.


Since the Geoman battery recall fiasco: Many of the major companies ( including MagicShine ) are now "name brand " dropping on the description of their batteries. 
Brand's being mentioned....Sanyo, Bak, LG..others. I've noticed that Action LED sells a sealed 4-cell MS battery that it claims has Sanyo 2800mAh cells or total 5600mAh....At a decent price I might add.

I think the lessen learned is that the discerning buyer is asking questions about the batteries BEFORE they buy.


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Geoman will be back - possibly looking for new product at this year's china bike expo..


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## merlin01 (Feb 28, 2010)

Really unfortunate, I bought the Magicshine duo from Geoman, great customer service.


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## FSR.Dude (Feb 26, 2011)

BajaDesignsShannon said:


> I know a good little company that's been around for 20 years and makes sweet lights that'd be more than happy help you guys spend a few hundo...:ihih:


Shannon, yeah, I just put 2 and 2 together. I've known about your company for some time now, namely for your fantastic lighting systems for off-road motorcycles. And, your newest bike light offerings look great (good review, Francis, thanks).

I have to hand it to GeoManGear in that they succeeded in making bike lights (namely MagicShine) more accessible to the masses, and got tons of people turned on to night riding who might not have otherwise started up. And, without my first bike light experience with GeoManGear, I might never have considered dropping a hundred or two more on lights such as Baja Designs, et al.

I think GeoManGear should be commended on generating more customers for this market. I know I've gotten a bunch of friends buying bike lights for group rides now, and I'm sure many more of you out there have similar stories.


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## Brazos (Apr 12, 2009)

That sucks. I just went to their website to order a new charger and a couple tail lights. My charger is broke. Does anyone know where I can get one? I hate to see them go. They seemed like a stand up company.


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## Brazos (Apr 12, 2009)

well I went to ebay and found a charger. Plenty of Magicshine lights on ebay. At least I can charge my battery again.


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## FSR.Dude (Feb 26, 2011)

Brazos said:


> That sucks. I just went to their website to order a new charger and a couple tail lights. My charger is broke. Does anyone know where I can get one? I hate to see them go. They seemed like a stand up company.


Amazon.com as well.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

For those of you that don’t know my history with Geoman and Geomangear, Jay and I both started selling Magicshine lights in 2009 soon after they hit the market. In fact, at first we teamed up and combined our orders to gain more clout with Magicshine. Combined we were their largest customer, though as the market grew that was no longer necessary. We had a gentleman’s agreement to split the market. Jay would have his website and I would sell through E-Bay and Amazon. 
Jay, being a more experienced businessman, shared his knowledge and helped me in many ways. He was an incredibly generous person. Both of us were very successful because we focused on providing the best possible customer service. Geomangear continued on after Jay’s passing with his wife, sister-in-law, and friends at the helm. They continued the tradition of excellent customer service that Jay believed in.

Together we pushed Magicshine to make many improvements to their lights. 

•	I designed the helmet mount for them and convinced them to add it to the line. 
•	We had them switch to a better grade of wire after many leads were failing at the flex points.
•	Together we came up with the 4-mode switch pattern.
•	Complaints from us (and I’m sure many others) led to the waterproof boot for the batteries.
•	The 2-strap battery case came from a sample I provided.
•	I suggested they make the wide-angle lens but Magicshine wasn’t interested. So I tooled that up myself.

I could go on about where Magicshine has been and where I think they are headed but that doesn’t belong here.

As mentioned previously, Geomangear indeed had a major hand in opening up night riding to the masses. Many have expressed that they will miss Geomangear as a reputable source for lights. I will miss them as an honest competitor. 

I’m sure many factors combined to lead Geomangear to the decision to call it quits. The bottom end of the market has gone to clones, perhaps the market has become somewhat flooded, and the number of legitimate competitors has mushroomed. Then there is the huge financial burden of their decision to initiate the battery recall.
Once the pubic announcement to quit was made we got in touch and I agreed to buy out their entire remaining inventory. Their commitment to their customers continues to be displayed by the fact that they are holding out a portion of that inventory to honor any possible warranty claims.
However, buying this inventory has put me a little flush in Magicshine lights. I have decided to have a “Geomangear Special” to clear out the extra inventory. I am offering select Magicshine lights at 20% off until they are gone. They came without batteries so I have paired them up with the standard MJ-6002 4400mAh Magicshine BAK battery. We can substitute any other battery in stock if you like or buy just the lighthead. If you’re interested use the discount code GEOMAN when checking out. 

Discounted lights include: MJ-808, MJ-808E, MJ-808E-R, MJ-872, MJ-816, MJ-858, and the MJ-812.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I guess my question is after all you've done for Magicshine, why did they leave Geoman holding the bag on the batteries?

Nice of you to do this deal and to buy his inventory.

J.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> I guess my question is after all you've done for Magicshine, why did they leave Geoman holding the bag on the batteries?
> J.


Two main reasons. 
1. Geomangear never talked to Magicshine about it. MS only found out when customers started calling and asking about a recall. 
2. Magicshine never thought there was a problem. 
I tend to agree. All Li-ion batteries have the potential to overheat in a runaway discharge if improperly handled. The problem is that no instructions for proper care and precautions were provided. My reaction was to type up detailed care instructions and mail it out to all my past customers. (Battery Care) It is now included with every battery I sell.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Really? Why wouldn't Geoman try and work it out to get MagicShine to fix and stand behind their batteries? That seems odd to me.

If the mfg sends a charger that causes it to overheat or burn that's still the mfg.'s fault.

J.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

*Thanks to everyone from Geomangear*

It's been about a month since we decided to close our virtual doors. It's been two years since we lost Jay, the founder of Geomangear. Jay was a devoted husband and the best friend a sister-in-law could have.

As word got out that we had closed the business, emails started pouring in and the forums lit up with your kind words. You can not imagine how gratified we were to read your comments. It softened the grief of losing Jay and the sadness of having to close the business he loved.

We don't want to dwell on everything that has happened. It is time to move on. But we do want to clear up a mis-conception that we never discussed the battery problems with Magicshine. In fact we were in negotiations with them for over a month in an attempt to find a solution. In the end we decided to go it alone and do the right thing.

We rest easier knowing that we have removed a significant number of the defective batteries from our customer's possession and have made their homes safer.

Thanks to everyone for your support over the years and your kind words now.

Geomangear Team


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Well, that's really sad and I feel for you. Magicshine owes you guys huge and it would be nice to see them stand up to their obligations to customers .... and to you.

J.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

GEOMAN said:


> We don't want to dwell on everything that has happened. It is time to move on. But we do want to clear up a mis-conception that we never discussed the battery problems with Magicshine. In fact we were in negotiations with them for over a month in an attempt to find a solution. In the end we decided to go it alone and do the right thing.


I stand corrected. Geomangear has filled me in on a portion of the battery saga I was not aware of.


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## Torchy (Feb 7, 2011)

GEOMAN said:


> It's been about a month since we decided to close our virtual doors. It's been two years since we lost Jay, the founder of Geomangear. Jay was a devoted husband and the best friend a sister-in-law could have.
> 
> As word got out that we had closed the business, emails started pouring in and the forums lit up with your kind words. You can not imagine how gratified we were to read your comments. It softened the grief of losing Jay and the sadness of having to close the business he loved.
> 
> ...


I only dabbled with Magicshine in a small way, but soon found the products were unreliable and the warranty was meaningless.
Best avoided.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

Torchy said:


> I only dabbled with Magicshine in a small way, but soon found the products were unreliable and the warranty was meaningless.
> Best avoided.


Reliability is much improved from when they first came out and the warranty is first rate if you buy from a first rate source. 
We warranty every Magicshine light we sell for 6 months from our location in northern Illinois. (like all electronics if it's going to fail it will usually do it right away) No need for the customer to deal with China. We take care of that.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Torchy said:


> I only dabbled with Magicshine in a small way, but soon found the products were unreliable and the warranty was meaningless.
> Best avoided.


 Funny, I've got about 100 rides on them I'd guess. 3 light system for about $300. All my buddies have them as well and other than a funky chord there have been no issues. I'm not saying that their aren't sweeter lights out there. I feel as though I've got my moneys worth though. I went through the battery recall as well, I'm sorry GM is out of buisiness cause they were great about things everytime I delt with them. You get what you pay for and I got a decent light system that got me back into night riding after my old NiteRiders blew. YRMV.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

You see, that's the problem. You bought them and use them but Magicshine is not a reliable manufacturer and doesn't stand behind their products to the point where they stiffed Geoman and drove them out of business. There is a cost to that too. 

Me? I'm not touching them especially after some of the problems they have had. The incremental cost difference is not much when (a) your battery causes a fire or (b) you are out in the middle of no where alone and your light dies or (c) you need some sort of support and your supplier is no longer there because the mfg essentially drove them out of business.

J.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Yeah, you’re right at about $3 per ride I see the problem. 
I've almost burned down a Westfalia w/ high end NiteRiders. Any lights can cause fires if you’re not careful with them. Anyone who would leave a cheap Chinese battery charging unmonitored is taking a risk. 
As I said, I’ve got three different lights running, the chance of them all blowing at the same time is slim. Plus as I said most of my friends ride with them as well so we can swap out parts, on trail if needed. 
Ironically, I did get fantastic support from the distributor in Geoman. Does it suck that they went out of business? As I also said, yeah that does suck cause they were awesome every time I dealt with them. 
You don’t want to touch them, don’t. I couldn’t care less what anyone else is running but to say they aren’t a cheap alternative to getting into or back into night riding is silly and short sighted.


I should also add that I've been night skiing with them about a dozen times without issue. So yeah... what was I thinking?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

JohnJ80 said:


> You see, that's the problem. You bought them and use them but Magicshine is not a reliable manufacturer and doesn't stand behind their products to the point where they stiffed Geoman and drove them out of business. There is a cost to that too.
> 
> Me? I'm not touching them especially after some of the problems they have had. The incremental cost difference is not much when (a) your battery causes a fire or (b) you are out in the middle of no where alone and your light dies or (c) you need some sort of support and your supplier is no longer there because the mfg essentially drove them out of business.
> 
> J.


...rattling the old chains in the attic again now are we John....


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Yeah, I suppose. The true cost of things is important, I guess and I hate it when companies do things like Magicshine did to Geoman gear. Good companies stand behind their products and should be recognized for that. Bad companies trash their partners and should be recognized for that too. 

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

JohnJ80 said:


> Yeah, I suppose. The true cost of things is important, I guess and I hate it when companies do things like Magicshine did to Geoman gear. Good companies stand behind their products and should be recognized for that. Bad companies trash their partners and should be recognized for that too.
> 
> J.


Well okay if you say so....I just saw a can of worms begging to be opened and thought maybe it might be better to just put the can of worms under the head of the sleeping dog who is better off sleeping than having to rehash old wounds.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

Cat-man-do said:


> Well okay if you say so....I just saw a can of worms begging to be opened and thought maybe it might be better to just put the can of worms under the head of the sleeping dog who is better off sleeping than having to rehash old wounds.


Can of worms it is. We should move on but with this persisting "Magicshine did nothing" and "Magicshine killed Geoman" I am defying an order to speak on their behalf. I asked Magicshine if I should set the record straight for them months ago, Apr 7 this year to be exact. I was told not to get involved. I was told to let it slide and not add fuel to the dying fire. I did not agree with that but it's their call so I respected that, begrudgingly.

I challenge Geoman to come in here and call me a liar. I want them to acknowledge Magicshine DID compensate them by offsetting substantial cost with lights & accessories although Magicshine did not agree with the recall one iota.

And, for those fires. Can someone please show us where we can view a scan, copy or webpage of a fire department report or an insurance claim on these so called "fires that burnt down my house" claims? Please highlight where it says "Cause of fire: Magicshine Li-ion battery."

Leonard


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Magicshine Australia said:


> ....I challenge Geoman to come in here and call me a liar. I want them to acknowledge Magicshine DID compensate them by offsetting substantial cost with lights & accessories although Magicshine did not agree with the recall one iota. ...


*_pop*_...well there goes the lid. Uh-oh...the dog is up and he ain't waggin his tail. 

This being the case I might as well add some wood to this fire. Len, I agree with you 100%. I also want to thank Action LED for shedding some light on the Geoman story.

Not to mention that the Geoman people also said that the decision to do a complete recall was "their idea" and that MagicShine had nothing to do with it. That being the case I don't think it fair to say that MagicShine drove Geoman out of business because they wouldn't agree to supply all the buyers of their product with a free upgraded/aftermarket battery. On the other hand I'm sure MagicShine would have supplied the vendor with enough of their own replacement batteries to handle any of the usual warranty issues that would of arose due to failure or poor quality.

For the record I'm not saying that the original MS batteries were good batteries. I think there were enough people complaining at the time to justify the poor quality claims. *_Still, most people used their MS lights without too many problems_ ( * considering how many of the lamps were sold ). Some people refused to send in their old batteries because they worked fine. While it was nice that Geoman gave away maybe 30 thousand batteries, in retrospect it was perhaps not the best business decision as there were other options available.

In the aftermath, because the "Geoman recall" raised so much awareness of battery quality ( or lack of to be precise ) it was quite clear that the fallout reached all the way to China. I remember reading back then that there were CEO's of major Chinese battery manufacturers that were losing their job. Afterward many Chinese bike light vendors began to advertise that their batteries were of "high quality". Without Geoman doing what he did I don't think there would have been so quick a reaction on the part of the Chinese to "rethink" the quality standards of their batteries.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Magicshine Australia said:


> Can of worms it is. We should move on but with this persisting "Magicshine did nothing" and "Magicshine killed Geoman" I am defying an order to speak on their behalf. I asked Magicshine if I should set the record straight for them months ago, Apr 7 this year to be exact. I was told not to get involved. I was told to let it slide and not add fuel to the dying fire. I did not agree with that but it's their call so I respected that, begrudgingly.
> 
> I challenge Geoman to come in here and call me a liar. I want them to acknowledge Magicshine DID compensate them by offsetting substantial cost with lights & accessories although Magicshine did not agree with the recall one iota.
> 
> ...


Often foreign companies do not agree with recalls in the US. That doesn't mean that they didn't need to do it. Geoman would likely have had to sustain that liability if the manufacturer wouldn't stand behind it. I doubt that anyone would just sit down and say, "Hmm. I think I'll be a good guy and buy everyone a new battery." There is a reason and it would have to be big.

As to the fires. There are pictures here that tell the story showing the burned out closets and the testimony of the owners of the homes and the lights. You can look for those yourself (search is your friend both here and on Google). Feel free to contact those who had the fire and get those materials yourself. In fact, I "challenge" you to do so.

Also, make sure you have good product liability insurance in case MS doesn't back you up. You may need it.

J.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

JohnJ80 said:


> Often foreign companies do not agree with recalls in the US. That doesn't mean that they didn't need to do it. Geoman would likely have had to sustain that liability if the manufacturer wouldn't stand behind it. I doubt that anyone would just sit down and say, "Hmm. I think I'll be a good guy and buy everyone a new battery." There is a reason and it would have to be big.
> 
> As to the fires. There are pictures here that tell the story showing the burned out closets and the testimony of the owners of the homes and the lights. You can look for those yourself (search is your friend both here and on Google). Feel free to contact those who had the fire and get those materials yourself. In fact, I "challenge" you to do so.
> 
> ...


[Reader warning: Ranting reply]

I took a break from here because I cannot explain things without sounding as if I am bantering, condesending or misunderstood. I had to "defend" myself from Day 1 because I represent Magicshine Australia and to a degree Magicshine.com. At the end, I wasn't doing myself any favors by contributing here. So I decided not come in or say anything.

I came by that day because I received an e-mail alerting me someone said something on the "MJ-880 anyone" thread. For those who thought I was shilling the answer is no. That guy bought a MJ-880 U2 from us. Moderators can check the IP address - he is in Europe. I came in then read you are still carrying on about "Magicshine killed Geoman". Was I upset? Damn straight I was. This silence by Magicshine and Geoman is making perception very one sided.

Well, let's sort it out once and for all. You are not reading what Geoman are saying themselves. They decided to go it alone on the recall after consulting with Magicshine. Magicshine did NOT kill Geoman. If they had not recalled, they may still be around today. Recalls are costly - ask Toyota or Sony. It's not something to be taken lightly. If I had to go that far, I would have asked everyone to return the sets for a full refund. That would have been the end of that disaster. Instead, it's certainly going to burn down the house refunding 15,000 sets or 19,500 batteries in total, but it's efficient. Now, even IF the 3 cases are real, that gives us 0.015% failure rate. You have better chance of finding a million bucks in a briefcase tomorrow at exactly 3.35pm

Let's read between the lines. Geoman was still selling Magicshine light units and accessories while being "really pissed off" with Magicshine? I would have thought if my supplier company treated us so badly, I would not even answer their call or e-mail let alone continue selling their products. Selling Magicshine products during the Magicshine Recall contradicts the whole idea Magicshine sux.

The fact is light units and accessories were given by Magicshine to contribute to the recall. Magicshine did not believe the recall was warranted but, they did it for business goodwill and hoped Geoman would get through what is their own undertaking. I can tell you the contribution is very substantial - I may face the wrath of Magicshine's boss Li MinJun for speaking out when they told me not to but hell, this nonsense has to end. If I lose them as a supplier so be it.

Yeah, I saw those pics on Facebook too. A burnt out closet with a light unit BBQed well done. Sorry, but do you charge your batteries in a closet? And, sorry again, did the battery or the light unit cause the fire. Where is the charger? Where is the battery in question? How does all this stand up in a court of law? If true justice was applied, there is certainly libel here. Show us documentation, not heresay or friend of a friend of a friend told me this. Posting pics on the net is not proof. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

There must be some report if the firemen turned up. There will be investigation and a fire report at the end. Where have you seen a documentation saying "Cause of fire: Li-ion battery manufactured by Magicshine". Do you really know something we don't, John?

If your place was burnt, you will be claiming insurance to rebuild, won't you? So, where is the Insurance Claim showing the fire was caused by "X product"? Documentation is the only proof something happened or, not happened. The rest is just rumor mongering with heaps of hot air.

People fast charge and do stuff with Li-ion. It's powered by chemical reaction. Treat it with respect and it will serve you well. If I mistreated a Li-ion and blamed a bike light company in this forum, do you not want proof instead of just taking my word for it and killing the reputation of a successful bike light manufacturer because I can? Do you believe anyone can overcharge a battery with the intention of blowing it up. It does not matter if the Li-ion battery is made by Rolls Royce. It will go, I promise you.

If bike light sellers live in fear manufacturers won't back them up, we won't have lights to buy. Magicshine backs us up very well, if you must know. We have never had a problem with warranty claims whatsoever. They send us replacements without 20 Questions. We just have to send any faulty items back to them once a box is filled and that takes months. I knocked back a warranty claim once because a guy sent us a faulty 818 rear light he actually bought from DX - he kept ours and wanted a full refund. He didn't know the light units have date of manufacture engraved behind the o-ring mount. People try anything. That should not surprise you.

[End of Rant]


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Screw Magicshine.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I'd have to say that, as a matter of fact, I do charge my batteries in a closet. It keeps all the clutter out of the way and it's where all my radios and other stuff are stored too. Makes it nice and tidy.

Magicshine Aus- Other than understanding that you have a vested interest in not necessarily having both sides equally represented in this, my advice would be to make sure you are well insured. You're not going to get far by demeaning those who had the problem and the fire. I'd just leave it at your positive opinion of MS and hope everyone believes you. And, like I said, I'd make sure that you are well insured.

I think the saga of Geoman making good on a battery recall even though it was probably not completely voluntary but forced by the economic reality and liability of selling a product that has problems, probably says all that needs to be said about this. They had to walk the talk and it was obviously painful and overwhelming. If MS "stood behind their product" then it obviously wasn't enough since they clearly did not bear the full liability of the recall regardless of whether they thought it was necessary or not. I'm sure the mfgs of the lead painted toys from also didn't feel that their recall was warranted. Business is different for domestic Chinese sales and those in the US - different cultures, different legal systems.

J.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

I rest my case. I have nothing further to add.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

me either.

j.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

JohnJ80 said:


> I'd have to say that, as a matter of fact, I do charge my batteries in a closet. It keeps all the clutter out of the way and it's where all my radios and other stuff are stored too. Makes it nice and tidy.
> 
> J.


 Yeah, storing gas in the closet might keep you garage nice and tidy too. It doesn't make it smart though.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

jugdish said:


> Yeah, storing gas in the closet might keep you garage nice and tidy too. It doesn't make it smart though.


What's that supposed to mean? It's bad to store your batteries in a closet? Are you serious?

J.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> What's that supposed to mean? It's bad to store your batteries in a closet? Are you serious?
> 
> J.


Storage is really not an issue. There is a one in a million chance that the battery could short out while charging if something goes wrong with the charger and the protection circuit in the pack. If that happens it could end up overheating to the point of flames. To guard against that it's best to charge your battery on a nonflammable surface or in a nonflammable container with nothing directly above it. A cheap container could be a large metal can with a little gravel in the bottom. 
There are other factors that increase your risk like charging your battery when it's too cold or if it's damaged in any way.
See BATTERY CARE for more information.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I understand how to charge batteries. I'm an electrical engineer. I'm fully acquainted with the "risks".

To posit that the person who had the fire should not have been charging their battery in a closet and is therefore responsible for the fire is ludicrous. That's in a league with saying that the victim of a rape is at fault for the rape. And, in fact, doesn't hold water since when batteries have caught on fire, we see mfgs falling all over themselves to recall and cover their acknowledged liability.

It's also stupid to expect people to create metal containers with gravel in the bottom in which to charge their batteries. I'm sorry, but that is a completely unreasonable expectation for product safety for the average consumer. Seriously? 

J.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

Jim Harger is extremely experienced in electrical matters. His credentials are long and distinguished. Besides, this is about safety & common sense, not electrical engineering.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

One of the mistakes Geomangear made was to not fully inform there customers about the risks involved with Li-ion batteries. Go into any hobby shop and look at the Lithium batteries they sell for RC cars and planes. They all include similar safety instructions and the shops all sell fireproof bags for charging. 
Major cordless tool manufacturers are now using Li-ions but their chargers and battery packs have idiot proof safely features built in. Of course a Dewalt charger cost $70 and a battery pack at least that much. Bike lights could take that route but the prices would double. Relying on the consumer to use a little common sense seems a more reasonable course.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

All this talk of the dangers of Li Ion charging made me think I should re-post the pic of my solution. I used to charge them on top of my wooden workbench, but have changed to setting them on a metal surface.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Magicshine Australia said:


> Jim Harger is extremely experienced in electrical matters. His credentials are long and distinguished. Besides, this is about safety & common sense, not electrical engineering.


Make sure you put the bit about a metal can filled with gravel in each of the Magicshine lights you ship - best if it's part of the manual. Let me know how that works out for you. 

J.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

Vancbiker said:


> All this talk of the dangers of Li Ion charging made me think I should re-post the pic of my solution. I used to charge them on top of my wooden workbench, but have changed to setting them on a metal surface.


Ermm.., Vanc, hope that drum is not filled with Methanol still. The batteries and chargers could end up stuck to the outside of the International Space Station.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> Make sure you put the bit about a metal can filled with gravel in each of the Magicshine lights you ship - best if it's part of the manual. Let me know how that works out for you.
> 
> J.


The instructions say charge on a non-flammable surface. The can is just a suggestion. Better than on a wooden floor or carpet.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Excuse me while I tippy-toe around the fire...

Back when all this was discussed in the original Magicshine battery thread I believe I tried to point out that everything made by humans can fail. As such everything has a failure rate. There is no escaping that fact. If the failure rate gets too high people take notice and ( in some countries ) there are institutions that are created to deal with those failures. Sometimes recalls/ refunds are ordered or in some cases law suits and close downs. As far as I know, "No official recall was ordered by any U.S government agency". At the time I looked on the websites I found nothing.

Interestingly, after doing a current search there is a link to the voluntary recall on the CPSC website. It is quite clear all of this was done because of three reported failures. With that said, we don't know who these people were or if they knew how to handle Li-ion batteries. Heck, for that matter it could of been someone who didn't like that cheap bike lights were entering the market and had a bone to pic with MS. At some point the CPSC got involved. We don't know how that happened or who initiated their involvement. Quite clear from the posting that Geoman decided to do a recall "Voluntarily". In the mean time the Magicshine products continued to sell so "New" Magicshine light sets were not illegal to buy or sell.

Anyway if you look at the CPSC website "All kinds of products are recalled that use batteries". I'm sure most of these companies issue the recalls, replace the batteries and continue life as usual. Such is life in the USA.

Last night I had a conversation with an employee of a Major airline. I was asking if there were any major changes in their company. I was told that their company had bought "such and such " airline a while back. I told the person that I never heard of that company. They then told me that was because "that" company had changed their name after "that" company had a catastrophic disaster that had killed a lot of people when one of their planes crashed. When they told me the original name of the company I said, "Oh yeah, I remember hearing about that in the news". :bluefrown:

Such is life. Products fail, catastrophes happen and people scramble to cover their as**s. Even more amazing is what the owners of these companies do to stay afloat. As for the MagicShine battery problem, a simple solution was available to an issue that would of been considered, "been there, done that", by many companies before them. You replace, retool and continue life as usual just like any other company would. For some reason Geoman decided to deviate from the standard procedures. His call.

Now with all this said, I don't think it fair to vilify MagicShine over the issue of Geoman going out of business without knowing all the dynamic of what transpired between the two parties. Since we really can't know ( one way or another ) I think it best to give them ( MS ) benefit of the doubt. I don't expect to change opinions on this but I thought I'd offer another viewpoint.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Magicshine Australia said:


> Ermm.., Vanc, hope that drum is not filled with Methanol still. The batteries and chargers could end up stuck to the outside of the International Space Station.


Why would one keep an empty methanol drum???


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## cyklops (Mar 28, 2005)

The dead bug is a nice touch..!


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

cyklops said:


> The dead bug is a nice touch..!


Luckily it was not a firefly, we may have had a hazardous situation on hand.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

*wide-angle lens*

Thanks, I have it and it's great!

Pat



Action LED Lights said:


> •	I suggested they make the wide-angle lens but Magicshine wasn't interested. So I tooled that up myself.


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## Epic_Dude (May 31, 2010)

As a person who designs lithium battery packs for a living and an owner of two Magicshine bike light systems, one older that has had the battery recalled and replaced, and one Magicshine MJ-900 that I just purchased. I find this thread very informative, and thought I'd resurrect it by posting.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Epic_Dude said:


> As a person who designs lithium battery packs for a living and an owner of two Magicshine bike light systems, one older that has had the battery recalled and replaced, and one Magicshine MJ-900 that I just purchased. I find this thread very informative, and thought I'd resurrect it by posting.


Hey Epic Dude, maybe you could help me out....I bought a first generation of Magicshine light years back and used it sporadically. At one point I had to replace the charger but I can't recall exactly what the problem is.

A few days ago I went to use the light for the first time this year and after checking the charger after a few hours I saw that the light was green and assumed it was fully charged. But when I connected the light, it was dead. When the charger is plugged in on it's own the green light is on. Would a new charger fix this? (if anyone else has constructive advice, feel free to chime in.) Thanks.


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## Epic_Dude (May 31, 2010)

Scott O said:


> Hey Epic Dude, maybe you could help me out....I bought a first generation of Magicshine light years back and used it sporadically. At one point I had to replace the charger but I can't recall exactly what the problem is.
> 
> A few days ago I went to use the light for the first time this year and after checking the charger after a few hours I saw that the light was green and assumed it was fully charged. But when I connected the light, it was dead. When the charger is plugged in on it's own the green light is on. Would a new charger fix this? (if anyone else has constructive advice, feel free to chime in.) Thanks.


Based on the info you posted, it sounds like your charger is fine, but most likely your pack has tripped for under voltage.

If the battery will not power your light, you probably have no, or very low OCV (Open Circuit Voltage) at the pack level.

It's normal for the charger to show a green light while plugged in but no battery is connected.

I assume you have one of the small 8.4V 1A chargers that were commonly bundled with the old Magicshine lights. The charger is probably fine, but the battery pack most likely needs to be replaced.

As for what battery pack to replace it with, that's a long story. In fact, I'm working on some options for myself and will be glad to post my findings in the next day our so.


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