# Do you look at e-bikes as disposable?



## blammo585 (Apr 24, 2012)

I've been very intrigued about e-bikes ever since test riding one about a month or so ago. But after reading the battery care thread and then thinking about the motor it has me hesitant to pull the trigger.

With a regular bike, as long as the frame holds together, I can replace everything else and ride it a lifetime. With e-bikes the battery will eventually need replacing, even with good care. With poor care it will fail prematurely, and with bad luck it may still fail prematurely. You're looking at buying a new battery or having the current one rebuilt (pretty sure I read you could do that). What I worry about with having to buy a new one is changes and new models. Most likely manufacturers will not keep the same battery or design year after year, especially with ever changing tech and improvements. Will I end up in a few years with a 52 lb regular bike because I can't find a battery to fit, and can't find anywhere to have one rebuilt?

Then there's the motor. I was reading a couple articles today about how long to expect an ebike to last. Both articles stated about a 10 year max life on an e-bike motor. That's concerning. The mountain bike I have now is almost 10 years old, and I still feel like it's relatively new. I would want more than 10 years out of a $5000+ e-bike...or any bike costing that much. And with it being a motor there's the chance you just get unlucky and something happens after warranty.

I know a lot of people like to play the "trade it in/sell it after a couple years of use" game and then get something new. I don't see that as a viable option in this area. Even if I could get $4000 for the bike in 2 years (and I don't think I could), I'd still have pay another $1600 for the new bike, assuming prices stayed the same. I wouldn't be keen on paying that every few years just to try to stay ahead of potential failures.

Any others out there concerned about longevity of their e-bike?


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

Since I had to get a warranty replacement for a Fazua battery and motor within the first year I really am not excited about how long it will last. Also like with all electronics, they will become obsolete fast so even if you want to buy replacement parts, they simply won’t be available. At least with the Fazua you can remove the motor and battery and still have a fully functional bike.


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## blammo585 (Apr 24, 2012)

ljsmith said:


> Since I had to get a warranty replacement for a Fazua battery and motor within the first year I really am not excited about how long it will last. Also like with all electronics, they will become obsolete fast so even if you want to buy replacement parts, they simply won’t be available. At least with the Fazua you can remove the motor and battery and still have a fully functional bike.


You just might have sold me a Trek Slash.


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## Yeti3 (Sep 4, 2020)

ljsmith said:


> Since I had to get a warranty replacement for a Fazua battery and motor within the first year I really am not excited about how long it will last. Also like with all electronics, they will become obsolete fast so even if you want to buy replacement parts, they simply won’t be available. At least with the Fazua you can remove the motor and battery and still have a fully functional bike.


Interesting. Your comment made be look into Fazua system a little bit more. How do you attach bottom bracket after motor removal?


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

Anyone with a first gen Specialized Turbo Levo is going to find out their purchase is a disposable item when they go to try to replace the battery...


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Oooooh.....I can't wait!!!


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## blammo585 (Apr 24, 2012)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> Anyone with a first gen Specialized Turbo Levo is going to find out their purchase is a disposable item when they go to try to replace the battery...


This is my concern with the Trek Rail I was looking at. I would think it would be an issue for any ebike at some point.


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## Grodyman (Sep 29, 2016)

Supposedly with the Rise, you can replace the motor.


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## jannmayer (10 mo ago)

I think longevity is a very valid concern, although from the way people talk about geometry changes, it sounds like any bike over a couple years old is junk. I can't stand having to scrap something because one part has failed and isn't replaceable or available anywhere.

I haven't been following eMTB technology closely. Has there been any sort of trend towards standardization of motor and battery interfaces? Most other bike parts have somewhat standard interfaces and can be replaced with parts from a different manufacturer, so it's easier to keep a bike going for a long time. This could potentially help the long-term supportability of e-bikes, although I imagine it would be very difficult to get the manufacturers to agree on a standard.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

blammo585 said:


> This is my concern with the Trek Rail I was looking at. I would think it would be an issue for any ebike at some point.


Specialized uses proprietary parts so they control the availability of replacement parts. Any legit brand using Shimano/Bosch/Yamaha systems should be fine, and possibly upgradeable in the future.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I have a Trek Rail.
I looked at it as disposable the moment I ordered it.
Which was 6 months before I took possession of it.
Anyway yeah, I look at ebikes through the eyes of someone who's been on the bleeding edge of mountain bike since 1985.
They're always changing.
Always.
Changing.

This is how the bike companies keep selling us new stuff.
Improve it in ways that are incompatible with upgrading an old bike.

I recall in 1999 when I decided I wanted disc brakes on my mountain bike.
I'd have to buy a new fork (w/disc tabs) and have my frame welded (disc mount on the stay), then acquire new wheels (rotor-compatible hubs), then buy the disc brakes themselves. Oh, and of course repaint my frame.
Cost at the time = roughly $2000.

So I bought a new disc brake equipped Gary Fisher X-Caliber for $2000.

I digress. My point is...
Ebikes are in their infancy. They'll be changing. In the future they'll look less and less like bicycles and more and more like off-road motorcycles (in the same way that mountain bikes have grown away from road bikes.)
In the future ebikes will have integrated motors & transmissions. Why in the world should an ebike employ a derailleur? Dumb!
Electronics will improve. Motors will improve. Batteries will improve. Chargers will improve.
Every step of the way, manufacturers will tell you that if you want to keep up with your riding buds, you can't do without THIS YEAR'S THING!

In 5 years we'll look back and laugh at the equipment we're riding today.
=sParty


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## alexdi (Jun 25, 2016)

This isn't even a question: they're absolutely disposable. It's not even clear the major car manufacturers will support their electric vehicles, never mind a bike brand that sold 300 units of a model five years ago they want to forget. If you're lucky, you can find a replacement motor that still fits your frame, but good look with the battery and any of the electronics.

Some trends I see / expect: 

1. They're becoming appliances. A black box you're meant to discard or replace, not service.
2. And if you do want to service it, you won't be able to get the tools.. 
3. ... or the software keys. Can't risk you screwing it up or extracting the IP. 
4. Warranties that exclude everything expensive. Ten years on the frame, a year on the battery. 
5. Optimization at the cost of serviceability even for the mechanical bits. Hidden hydraulic lines, hidden shocks and batteries, cables going through bars and headsets

The result of this will be/is spectacular depreciation on the used market. When you can't adjust the fit and you can't trust the electronics, what are you left with?


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## alexdi (Jun 25, 2016)

Sparticus said:


> In 5 years we'll look back and laugh at the equipment we're riding today.


I doubt it. Motors, frames, wheels, geometry, and suspension are already quite optimized. Yeah, we'll see more range, or a model or two that gets under 35 pounds, but it won't be a categorically different experience. That's true even of ordinary bikes. Five years ago, we had 67D trail bikes with 11S. Now we have 65D trail bikes with 12S. I expect ebikes to be similarly incremental.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I expect my Ebike to last 10 years.
I maintain the battery religiously so it should start to fade between 8-10 years or 1000-1500 cycles.
The motor has serviceable parts and I expect to have a full $300+ service around 15000 miles at 5 years.
I ride about 3000+ miles a year.
Brake pads are the biggest expense and only last about 300 miles. After 4 sets of pads I change the rotors. 
For tires the eddy currents last 1000-1500 miles. Normal tires are only good for 300-500 miles.
Shocks and fork are another area that gets extra abuse and you need to budget servicing each every 6 months to a year. 
My 2008 Blur XC carbon basically only had the same frame fork and shock. Both had rebuilt multiple times along with bearing replacements. It was a great bike and still very usable, but had reached the end of serviceable life for me. I was a different rider and was worried that it would break. 

After 10 years I'll be ready to move on and will have gotten my use out of it. I expect that it could be cobbled along for another 10 years of lesser duty. Kind of like selling a car with 150k miles on it.

My 1997 Super V still see's daily duty, but I'm not hucking it off any drops. It has also been rebuilt from the frame up more than once.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Yes.

Many of these are of the level of low end mtbs and hybrids and other biycle-shaped-objects that will likely get abandoned the first time something wears out, will cost significant money to fix/replace, etc. This is also true for the more "mountain-bike"-like ones, but I would imagine the former make up the bulk of sales and they will make up the bulk of abandonments.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Sparticus said:


> They'll be changing. In the future they'll look less and less like bicycles and more and more like off-road motorcycles (in the same way that mountain bikes have grown away from road bikes.)


So they will have gas tank looking things on the top tube that hold two gallons of water for long rides, and a 18" long seat to help haul passengers, well because their more like off-road motorcycles, and have a big battery!! And have 12" of travel front and rear because they can go 20 MPH? And will probably have a clutch lever so they can pop wheelies easier and do burnouts?


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## holdendaniels (Jul 25, 2005)

Yes, I plan on buying a new e-bike every two to three years depending on advancements.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Yes, I plan to keep upgrading my ebike(s) as new ones come out that get me more and more excited to go out and shred. Same exact plan with normal bikes. The bike industry progresses so fast, for me it’s exciting to be on the latest and greatest all the time. 

Same thing with my phone. 

And my laptop. 

And basically any electronic device I purchase. 

Car might be a little different considering I just sold my 2007 Tacoma for the same price I paid for it 10 years ago. Literally.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

You really need to keep updating them, otherwise they’ll become that cordless drill in the shed with the dead battery you can’t buy anymore (or the cost of the battery makes it cheaper to just buy a new drill).

No way would I spend $10k on one and keep it for more than 2-3yrs.


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeti3 said:


> Interesting. Your comment made be look into Fazua system a little bit more. How do you attach bottom bracket after motor removal?


The bottom bracket is attached to the frame and stays with the frame when you remove the motor/battery unit.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

blammo585 said:


> I've been very intrigued about e-bikes ever since test riding one about a month or so ago. But after reading the battery care thread and then thinking about the motor it has me hesitant to pull the trigger.
> 
> With a regular bike, as long as the frame holds together, I can replace everything else and ride it a lifetime. With e-bikes the battery will eventually need replacing, even with good care. With poor care it will fail prematurely, and with bad luck it may still fail prematurely. You're looking at buying a new battery or having the current one rebuilt (pretty sure I read you could do that). What I worry about with having to buy a new one is changes and new models. Most likely manufacturers will not keep the same battery or design year after year, especially with ever changing tech and improvements. Will I end up in a few years with a 52 lb regular bike because I can't find a battery to fit, and can't find anywhere to have one rebuilt?
> 
> ...


Let me say you are probably not an Ebike happy rider candidate.
I hear what you say and i think 5 years is many years for an Ebike.

We cover about twice the distance so 5 years = 10 years.
This means at least double the cost to replace chains, tires, etc... ...
Keep your bike and keep on smiling is my suggestion.
I do not care if it cost me more, it let me be car free.
I save so much $$ by not having a car that an Ebike is still a great deal for me.
If you go get one look at Giant/Yamaha for the money they are great.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Sparticus said:


> I have a Trek Rail.
> I looked at it as disposable the moment I ordered it.
> Which was 6 months before I took possession of it.
> Anyway yeah, I look at ebikes through the eyes of someone who's been on the bleeding edge of mountain bike since 1985.
> ...


That is what many manufacturers are doing.
It is the dumb phone dance.
What U hav is garbage = get a new one or be a looser.
In 6 months they will call U stupid for buying the junk they were selling.
Prove U R not an idiot
Buy fresh JUNK


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

RBoardman said:


> Yes, I plan to keep upgrading my ebike(s) as new ones come out that get me more and more excited to go out and shred. Same exact plan with normal bikes. The bike industry progresses so fast, for me it’s exciting to be on the latest and greatest all the time.
> 
> Same thing with my phone.
> 
> ...





RBoardman said:


> Yes, I plan to keep upgrading my ebike(s) as new ones come out that get me more and more excited to go out and shred. Same exact plan with normal bikes. The bike industry progresses so fast, for me it’s exciting to be on the latest and greatest all the time.
> 
> Same thing with my phone.
> 
> ...


Spot on for me! Except for me on reg bikes, I got the new bike itch about yearly. I would also buy all the good parts and install it on my new ride and then sell the old bike with new parts.

I do the same with my ebike, but I don’t get the new ebike itch as often. Maybe every other year. I have a staple of high end parts like; axs shifting and seat post, top of the line fork and shock and wheels. Those stay with me and when I sell my old ebike, it’ll again be with fairly new parts. This seems to work for me👍🏼


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I just hope all these batteries are recycled properly when they no longer hold a charge, but I expect lots of fires and environmental contamination from improper disposal. This is not a problem exclusive to ebikes, of course, but the crappy e-BSOs are going to cause considerable problems for waste haulers and recycling facilities. (Look up "battery fire in recycling sorting facility.")


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

33red said:


> That is what many manufacturers are doing.
> It is the dumb phone dance.
> What U hav is garbage = get a new one or be a looser.
> In 6 months they will call U stupid for buying the junk they were selling.
> ...


But sometimes this is true in this crazy industry. I had a 2019 Enduro. Never loved it, but it was a very solid bike. A few months later the 2020 enduro came out (the current version) and the way it rode made my bike feel like junk. Night and day difference. I don’t consider myself a fool for “falling for the marketing cool aid”, because I truly believed that the bike was better in every way.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

My considered response to this debate is 2 words - Trek Bosch
(too big to fail  )


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

mack_turtle said:


> I just hope all these batteries are recycled properly when they no longer hold a charge, but I expect lots of fires and environmental contamination from improper disposal. This is not a problem exclusive to ebikes, of course, but the crappy e-BSOs are going to cause considerable problems for waste haulers and recycling facilities. (Look up "battery fire in recycling sorting facility.")


This is already a problem in the industry with strand/sheet carbon, though not as toxic. For a group that does a lot of pretending to be environmental stewards, and a bunch of companies preaching the same, there sure is a lot of buying/breaking/disposal of single-use carbon parts. All the talk is cheap fluff.

As for the bikes themselves, I see them becoming more like household appliances like refrigerators, stoves, vacuums, etc. They break down, and if you can fix them at all, the cost of parts and labor sees them get thrown in the trash and taking up landfills. Guilty as charged - I recently had a dishwasher fail, a pretty nice one at that, whose pathetic little sub-board with about $12 of components on it was going to cost $450+ to replace, and would probably go bad again in another 3 years. So I did what anyone would do - spent $650 for a whole new dishwasher and sent the old one to the landfill. Ebikes will end up the same way.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

As they are now, once they're out of warranty they're mostly disposable. The current motors cannot be serviced and you cannot get replacement parts from the factory. From what I understand, batteries are also software locked. The rider is essentially locked out of the hardware.

However, I think this will change in the next several years. The open source VESC project makes ESCs which are adaptable to anything, including mid-drive ebikes. To get one working with the current motors, you'd basically need to rip all the electronics out, keep the torque sensor and maybe the speed sensor, connect up the motor itself, then tune the parameters. There's also a decent chance an Arduino or similar would be needed between the torque sensor and VESC, but maybe not. Once a VESC is in place of the stock electronics, a software battery lockout is pretty easy to work around. 

Most all of the ESC management and battery charging/management has already been worked out by other PEV communities, and just needs to be applied to eMTBs. There is a great market for upgrading and repairing eMTB motors out there for someone to exploit.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Homepage - eBike Motor Centre (Performance Line Bearings)


Welcome to the home of e-Bike Motor Repairs




www.ebikemotorcentre.com


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

There's nothing stopping you from stripping the frame down. A fork or shock may not give up before a motor or battery. Take the wheels, brakes, bars and stem.. I've still got forks that are fifteen years old being ridden weekly.


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

The Batteries are made up of small cells similar to a D cell Flashlight battery. They are even this way in Cars. They can always be rebuilt with fresh cells currently available separately. I spent 20+ years in the RC place hobby and learned a little bit about Lithium batteries. Batteries are your smallest worry but future Motors may a be way different. call.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Mudguard said:


> There's nothing stopping you from stripping the frame down. A fork or shock may not give up before a motor or battery. Take the wheels, brakes, bars and stem.. I've still got forks that are fifteen years old being ridden weekly.


I hate to say this, but after not being able to get rebuild parts I needed for my fork last year.. The rest of the hardtail from 2008 went into bins. The brakes sucked in comparison to modern stuff, the bars and stem were no longer really appropriate for current geometries, etc. 

I suspect we'll continue to see the same in the future. I also suspect that the electronics will make this faster. After all, even cars with infotainment systems are much more dated, much faster.. They'll become obsolete faster too.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> I hate to say this, but after not being able to get rebuild parts I needed for my fork last year.. The rest of the hardtail from 2008 went into bins. The brakes sucked in comparison to modern stuff, the bars and stem were no longer really appropriate for current geometries, etc.


I'd say salvaging parts from 2008 to use now might be stretching it a little.. But my Saint brakes are still the current model and I've had them eight years I think. Are there better brakes out there? Maybe but only incrementally so. I've still got some Hayes Mags on a bike and apart from lever slop they are completely fine.

I've been waiting for a new bike for awhile (not only due to Covid delays, but for standards to settle down). I think with axles, wheel sizes and metric shocks, we may be getting close to moving more and more on to a new frame. Whereas my main bike has little wheels, proprietary shock and obsolete hub standards so nothing other than maybe the bars, pedals, stem and saddle will switch out.

I've got a few old bikes, and nearly all of them have 50mm stems, 760mm bars and 1x drivetrains. There's life in a few of them yet.

What I find interesting is perhaps expectations from users who may not have come from mountainbike backgrounds.
This woman needed a replacement motor. She'd done 7000kms in 2.5 years. Which for a mountain bike, is a lot. I aim to ride 1000k offroad each year, and while those KMs are nothing to roadies, 7000kms is quite a lot. Now to be fair I'm sure a lot of her kms aren't black trails and are mostly commuting and double track. But are people being sold high end e-bikes and thinking they'll get _motorbike_ kilometres out of them?

_Kay says she was told a new drive unit would set her back around $2000NZD. She wasn’t impressed. The cost of her ebike was just shy of $10,000NZD. She’d serviced it regularly and kept it indoors, and *it had only done about 7000 kilometres. “I expected it to last as long as I needed a bike, up until I’m 80*," Kay explains. 

Ebike expert Maurice Wells can understand why she’d expect to have a new unit free of charge. “I would think a drive unit should last *tens of thousands of kilometres,* so that's not to say they all last forever, but most people aren't going to change a drive unit while they own an ebike”.









Fair Go: Woman waits a year for ebike replacement part


Kay Bone paid almost $10,000 for her ebike which stopped working when it reached just 7000km.




www.1news.co.nz




_


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

Some rich asshole lady came in to the shop last year complaining that her $9000 Turbo Levo wouldn't shift right. I could see her hanger was slightly bent so I straightened it, ran through the gears and charged her $20. When she went to ride it the next day she called the shop as I was closing and complained it wasn't fixed. So I told her to bring it to my house the next morning, which was closer to her home anyways.
I replaced the shift cable and housing, and no matter what I did I couldn't get it to mis-shift. I could tell the drivetrain was a bit worn, but I didn't have a chain checker in my home toolset. So I sent her on her way, and she brought it in the next day we were open. 
"This thing is just as bad as before. Why can't you fix it" So I check the chain, it's past .01 wear... 
"Lady you need a whole new drivetrain" 
"There's no way! This bike is brand new!" 
"How many miles are on it?" 
"Hardly any." 
"How many?"
"Maybe 1000 miles at most."
No **** your drivetrain is worn out... that's more miles than most people put on a bicycle in their lifetime. Turns out she was riding it up the steepest mountain in our area in Turbo mode almost every day, only using the highest four gears.
Some people buy an e-bike but they need a motorcycle.
Also I don't even change a tube without checking the chain for wear on any bike brought in.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

After 3 years of reading forums it sounds like some manufacturers are betting many riders will do a few kms each year, so reliability is not important.
They overprice so for riders that do lots of kms they can give an other motor wich is prepaid. 
There is no way a reasonable person can say a Specialized is worth what they ask after years
of leaving riders pushing some heavy shitty bike out of the woods.
I do not consider having a huge list off excuses is a good reason to ask for a huge amount of money.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Mudguard said:


> I'd say salvaging parts from 2008 to use now might be stretching it a little.. But my Saint brakes are still the current model and I've had them eight years I think. Are there better brakes out there? Maybe but only incrementally so. I've still got some Hayes Mags on a bike and apart from lever slop they are completely fine.


Agreed, but my road bikes (simpler tech) range from around the same age to much, much older than 14 years. They're still relevant. The more complicated the tech, the faster it becomes obsolete. I think that adding a motor, and the controllers necessary, will only accelerate that phenomenon.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> Agreed, but my road bikes (simpler tech) range from around the same age to much, much older than 14 years. They're still relevant. The more complicated the tech, the faster it becomes obsolete. I think that adding a motor, and the controllers necessary, will only accelerate that phenomenon.


It is amusing that basic mid-drive EMTBs are too 'cheap' for many MTB/Road riders - but too expensive for the dirt bike Moto crowd. 

It is amusing that basic mid-drive EMTBs are too 'heavy' for the weight-weenies - but most riders can make the adjustment and have a lot of fun.


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## boellefisk (Nov 16, 2020)

All bikes are disposable in a sense. It's a tool not a vase. It's meant to be ridden and used. At some point it will break. And that's fine too.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Trips me out that people talk about owning stuff like this in 10+ year cycles.

I mean, how long do some of you think you are going to live?!


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

EVERYTHING is disposable and ends up in the trash or recycled, even you. You just have to live long enough or die😁


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> Some rich asshole lady came in to the shop last year complaining that her $9000 Turbo Levo wouldn't shift right. I could see her hanger was slightly bent so I straightened it, ran through the gears and charged her $20. When she went to ride it the next day she called the shop as I was closing and complained it wasn't fixed. So I told her to bring it to my house the next morning, which was closer to her home anyways.
> I replaced the shift cable and housing, and no matter what I did I couldn't get it to mis-shift. I could tell the drivetrain was a bit worn, but I didn't have a chain checker in my home toolset. So I sent her on her way, and she brought it in the next day we were open.
> "This thing is just as bad as before. Why can't you fix it" So I check the chain, it's past .01 wear...
> "Lady you need a whole new drivetrain"
> ...


 I am curious as to why you feel this lady was an a$$hole: was she rude to you or acted in an arrogant manner? Or did she just have more money than you……? I think this anecdote tells us more about you than it does ebikers.

Were you just embarrassed that you did such a slipshod job of diagnosing her worn out drivetrain that the customer had to come back three times to discover something competent technician should have found the first time. The worn parts were there the whole time, all it needed was for a technician to bother to look.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

WoodlandHills said:


> I am curious as to why you feel this lady was an a$$hole: was she rude to you or acted in an arrogant manner? Or did she just have more money than you……? I think this anecdote tells us more about you than it does ebikers.


I thought it was clear from the story- I went out of my way to try to help her but due to her ignorance she kept insisting that it was my fault her worn out bike wasn't shifting right.
I have an e-bike myself, not sure how I inferred I had a problem with e-bikes or people with money?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> I thought it was clear from the story- I went out of my way to try to help her but due to her ignorance she kept insisting that it was my fault her worn out bike wasn't shifting right.
> I have an e-bike myself, not sure how I inferred I had a problem with e-bikes or people with money?


How does you not finding and fixing the worn out drivetrain the first time she brought it in for service reflect on her ignorance or make her an asshole? She took her bike to you for repair and you twice threw parts at it before actually doing a thorough inspection and finding that she was right all along: her worn out bike was not shifting and you overlooked the actual cause and sent her on her way with a bike that wouldn’t shift……..twice.

I suppose the phrase “some rich asshole lady” in the very first sentence sort of pointed me in the direction of inferring you had some issues. If I am incorrect, why even put the phrase in your original post?


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

WoodlandHills said:


> How does you not finding and fixing the worn out drivetrain the first time she brought it in for service reflect on her ignorance or make her an asshole? She took her bike to you for repair and you twice threw parts at it before actually doing a thorough inspection and finding that she was right all along: her worn out bike was not shifting and you overlooked the actual cause and sent her on her way with a bike that wouldn’t shift……..twice.
> 
> I suppose the phrase “some rich asshole lady” in the very first sentence sort of pointed me in the direction of inferring you had some issues. If I am incorrect, why even put the phrase in your original post?


This was not the first time dealing with her, and it's a long story. I didn't mean she was an asshole because of the story, I meant she was an asshole already and I had been dealing with her for a while at the time.
I won't be able to explain the whole story- but I'll include the part where at the time I wasn't even checking chains because chains and cassettes were completely unavailable at the time, or that she insisted that is was another issue and wouldn't listen to me anyways. I knew it was worn and told her, I just had no reason to see how much, because it was pointless to know. Dozens of customers were having to run their chains past .01 at the time because nobody could get parts during the pandemic. _Still foolish of me not to check the stretch and document it_.
She came in with a bent hanger, and there was nothing more I could do. To appease her demands I changed the cable and housing IIRC, but the point was that a lot of e-bike users were never a cyclist and are often ignorant of basic bike maintenance. She actually killed the motor by pressure washing the bike too- maybe she's more stupid than anything?

Another example was a few months before she paid for some service and came back a week later complaining the tires were a bit low... as if that was my fault. She thought they are like cars where your mechanic checks over your car and makes sure the tires are inflated to the recommended PSI, and then they stay like that for another year. She had no idea you need to pump up bike tires every week when they are tubeless.
All my old riding friends are getting up in age and are often switching to or adding an e-MTB to their stable. Those kind of people are a joy to work for. They understand the high maintenance a bicycle needs.
edit: and I forgot to explain the bike shifted perfectly fine on the stand or on the street. She was exclusively riding it up a mountain with a 22% grade in Turbo mode- nothing else. She didn't mention that small detail till later.


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

Hey Jack,

I got my first eBike last November...my first new bike in 25 years. I still have m 2 26"'ers Ventana's that I raced in the 80's and 90's 75mm travel. Went to 2021Sea Otter on a whim because I had not been back since I raced this race in 2002. Could not believe how much the bike had changed...no more triple rings, no more tube-set Frames almost everything is carbon with huge disc brakes as opposed to Rim brakes of yesteryear. Anyway...my new beast is 54lbs that includes the battery weighing 12 lbs! But I put that 160Nm torque and 1100 Ah battery to good use to take me anywhere I want to go......I replaced all the components with with better quality kit and I'll just have to see how long she lasts....but yea....everything does become disposable at some point!


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## blammo585 (Apr 24, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> Trips me out that people talk about owning stuff like this in 10+ year cycles.
> 
> I mean, how long do some of you think you are going to live?!


I still have my 86 Honda FourTrax 200SX ATV, a 97 DK Pro XL BMX race bike, and 98 Haro Blammo. I have an 88 GT Pro Freestyle Tour Team frame and an 89 Bully freestyle frame. Neither of those are broken; I just took parts off through the years to use on other bikes. But I can jump on my DK or my Blammo and ride either of them around. I have a Mongoose "full suspension" mountain bike from the late 90s from Walmart, and it's still rideable too. I take care of most of my stuff and expect it to last. I would expect no different from an ebike if I bought one.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

I was thinking about that whole "disposable" thing too and I will definitely sell my ebike in 2 years since it's true.
Not because the bike will be bad, I take good care of all of my bikes, but the tech jumps on electronics each year are too high. Waiting too long and the bike will be worth nothing.
My next ebike maybe somthing with a mid-drive bafang motor since spare parts, batteries and so on are available.
Or maybe a Fazua as I found the concept of light ebikes amazing.


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

OneTrustMan,
The motor on my bike is a Bafang and I’ve only got ~400 mies on it and that motor has not missed a beat In the short time I’ve owned it. It puts out 160Nm so it certainly not lacking in power.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

mack_turtle said:


> I just hope all these batteries are recycled properly when they no longer hold a charge, but I expect lots of fires and environmental contamination from improper disposal. This is not a problem exclusive to ebikes, of course, but the crappy e-BSOs are going to cause considerable problems for waste haulers and recycling facilities. (Look up "battery fire in recycling sorting facility.")


I do energy storage work and I can tell you sadly batteries currently are not being recycled. There are companies spinning up to do so but they are just starting.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

LarryMagoo said:


> The Batteries are made up of small cells similar to a D cell Flashlight battery. They are even this way in Cars. They can always be rebuilt with fresh cells currently available separately. I spent 20+ years in the RC place hobby and learned a little bit about Lithium batteries. Batteries are your smallest worry but future Motors may a be way different. call.


These batteries and how the packs are built is very different than the Li-Poly used in RC, which I also used to do.

Sure you can break a pack open and try to break the welds on the cells, then you need a battery spot welder to put things back together. That is after you top or bottom balance the cells to get the max capacity. Add in finding batteries that will fit the form factor and then how do you reseal the casing you cracked open.

it's a PITA that I have done once, on a friends e-bike where the pack went flat.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> "How many miles are on it?"
> "Hardly any."
> "How many?"
> "Maybe 1000 miles at most."
> No **** your drivetrain is worn out... that's more miles than most people put on a bicycle in their lifetime. Turns out she was riding it up the steepest mountain in our area in Turbo mode almost every day, only using the highest four gears.


Is 1000 miles a lot on an ebike?
edit: I guess in her case it was, but it's not a lot of miles, generally, right?


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## EliminatorMTB (Apr 28, 2009)

alexbn921 said:


> I expect my Ebike to last 10 years.
> I maintain the battery religiously so it should start to fade between 8-10 years or 1000-1500 cycles.
> The motor has serviceable parts and I expect to have a full $300+ service around 15000 miles at 5 years.
> I ride about 3000+ miles a year.
> Brake pads are the biggest expense and only last about 300 miles. After 4 sets of pads I change the rotors.


Are you actually wearing the pads down to the replacement spec or just like fresh pads? I think I'm fairly hard on my brakes but no where near that kind of wear in 300 miles. Are you checking your rotors too to see if they're out of spec? Most of my rides are ~20 miles with about 5,000 ft elevation gain/loss, I can't see replacing brakes every 15 rides. I'm only at ~250 miles on my bike and pulled the pads when I upgraded my lever assemblies and the pads did not look severely worn.

That battery is going to fade much sooner than 8-10 years, think about other rechargeable battery applications none of them last that long. They don't even give us smart charging systems that allow us to charge to the ideal % for storage then a mode to go to full charge by x:xx time, they should have smart chargers that are linked to an app that allow for that for the $$ were spending especially when battery replacements are +$1,000. Some info on here says letting the bike sit for 8-10hrs at full charge could harm the battery, kind of hard to not do that if you charge it up the night before a ride. 

I'm planning ~3 years before I get a new e-bike unless something really changes like much bigger/lighter battery or integrated gearboxes.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

MSU Alum said:


> Is 1000 miles a lot on an ebike?
> edit: I guess in her case it was, but it's not a lot of miles, generally, right?


My point is that e-bikes allow novices to ride far more miles than most avid MTBers would be able to do in the same time period. To put 1000 miles on a MTB in 6-8 months is pretty impressive.


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## Cheap_Basterd (May 28, 2020)

Speaking of rich assholes, my neighborhood bike shop usually has one yelling at the staff because his ebike that he uses as a motorcycle, as you guys have mentioned above, doesn’t work right.

People around here buy them to commute, and I see them zipping down the streets of my town in 20 to 30 mph.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

EliminatorMTB said:


> Are you actually wearing the pads down to the replacement spec or just like fresh pads? I think I'm fairly hard on my brakes but no where near that kind of wear in 300 miles. Are you checking your rotors too to see if they're out of spec? Most of my rides are ~20 miles with about 5,000 ft elevation gain/loss, I can't see replacing brakes every 15 rides. I'm only at ~250 miles on my bike and pulled the pads when I upgraded my lever assemblies and the pads did not look severely worn.
> 
> That battery is going to fade much sooner than 8-10 years, think about other rechargeable battery applications none of them last that long. They don't even give us smart charging systems that allow us to charge to the ideal % for storage then a mode to go to full charge by x:xx time, they should have smart chargers that are linked to an app that allow for that for the $$ were spending especially when battery replacements are +$1,000. Some info on here says letting the bike sit for 8-10hrs at full charge could harm the battery, kind of hard to not do that if you charge it up the night before a ride.
> 
> I'm planning ~3 years before I get a new e-bike unless something really changes like much bigger/lighter battery or integrated gearboxes.


The pads wear down to the backing plates in 300ish miles. Our trails are very high speed and extremely steep(30%+). Absolutely nothing is wrong with the rotors and I true them to +- .001 inch using a dial gauge at every pad change. 
Magura 220mm rotors with XTR 4 pot sintered finned pads.

Batteries are not disposable if you treat them right. I have a 4 year iPad that still has 100% battery heath.
I also have a smart timer and it's easy to calculate the time needed for a perfect storage charge. you can start charging from anywhere and even set timers to start early morning so I wake up to a freshly charged battery. My battery spends 99% of its time at a storage charge.

Smart chargers and being able to charge at 1C are necessary improvement to the ownership experience. 4 amp charging is pathetic on a 20amp battery.


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