# Front wheel washout crashing, what to do?



## rainiermadbeautiful (Feb 27, 2011)

Past two crashes I've washed out the front wheel and bellyflopped the ground. Not really stoked on it. Both times I was going fast/hitting jumps/ going into turns. I ride a Trek Slash 27.5 so I know I need to keep weight on the front wheel in turns because of the aggressive geo. Is there anything I can do to my suspension to help me? I was thinking making it more stiff or the rebound slower might help. Not really sure. Thanks for any ideas.


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## nwmtb (Jan 3, 2004)

dust yourself off and hit that corner again !


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## Chippertheripper (Sep 10, 2014)

I just had one of my more spectacular offs in a long while this week doing the same thing...Fast chattery downhill into a bermed left. 
A little slower rebound will help a little, but there's a fine line there. 
I was able to laugh it off with only a good case of swelbow saying to myself, I should've been looking further ahead. 
So while setup might answer some of your questions, looking further ahead will probably go a long way towards preventing the situation to begin with. 
That's all I've got.


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

tire choice and pressure perhaps? have you play around with your fork setting? evaluate your body positioning as well perhaps


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Too radical lean angles, may the causing the washouts. Return to the crash spot and standing off the bike, grasp the bars and start re-creating a low lean angle, until the front wheel gives way. Repeat this using a lesser lean - until the front wheel can complete the turn without slipping. Remember that lean angle....and you're set.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Depends what the problem is.

Is your front wheel washing out because you can't hold your line and you're hitting the soft stuff along the side of the trail?

Or are you solidly in the middle of the best line?

What tires are you running? How wide are they? What's the tread like, rubber compound, etc? Cheap stock tires are often too narrow and with overly hard rubber compounds. Grip tends to suck, but they last a long time.

What's the trail surface like? I know in my area, it's been dry for awhile. Trails are dusty, and leaves are starting to fall. Those conditions are ripe for washouts. It's time to dial back speeds and install knobbier tires.


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## JohnWhiteCD (Aug 28, 2015)

Slow down there Ace!


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

To my knowledge the geo has nothing to do with where you place your weight. Traction is traction and to much load or to little load on one tire will make it wash out. Weight forward can also make you tense on the handlebars. If you're weighting the handlebars its negating any work that the bikes geo should do on its own to find traction. Especially as you get closer to the limit a light grip and smooth inputs get more important.

I've found some tires seem to let go more suddenly than others. I'm pretty sure it has more to do with the construction rather than the tread. In the motorcycle world some people find one manufacture forgiving and other people say its unpredictable. Maybe change it up and try something new? 

Sometimes you just hit a bad line or dig up a rock too.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

What front tire, what tire pressure, and whats your weight? 

You cant really put weight on the front tire on a mountain bike riding aggressively. I mean you can a bit, but the riding position for going downhill is leaning back, arms out, and getting low, all which arent really putting an emphasis on front weight. Even in attack position going around a corner with a slight uphill grade, you should have plenty of front traction to not wash out and eat it. 

Some tires just dont work well as fronts. Its ok to be a little picky with how your front tires ride. Washing out hurts.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Most of the time when you wash the front it is because you did something technically wrong, rarely is it because of too much speed. But usually your technique falls apart when you hit the turn at a speed you are not quite comfortable with. Try slowing down a bit for now and focusing on being technically correct, then increase your speed.

Bike set-up can be a factor. For example, a fork that has the rebound set a little quick might kickout on you mid-turn. I suspect, however, it is a technique issue, you doing something that is putting you on the ground.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Ive had 2 tires (2.35 wire ignitor, and a IRC) that, riding the same trails at the same speed in the same manner, would wash out causing a crash. The ignitor would wash out instantly and id be on the ground before I knew what happened. This has never happened before with other tires, or after changing the tire. 

Everyone rides a little different. If the way you ride causes your front tire to wash out, if you dont feel you're riding really sloppily its worth changing the tire to something that works with your style.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Fajita Dave said:


> Traction is traction and to much load or to little load on one tire will make it wash out. Weight forward can also make you tense on the handlebars. If you're weighting the handlebars its negating any work that the bikes geo should do on its own to find traction. Especially as you get closer to the limit a light grip and smooth inputs get more important.


^This. Also, this bike shouldn't be ridden from the front end that much. It should be ridden more from the rear. It's possible that your riding it to much from the front and the front oversteers for a split second, you react and the front loses its grip and washes out.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Fajita Dave said:


> To my knowledge the geo has nothing to do with where you place your weight.


This is absolutely not true. The new geometry puts more weight on the back wheel and removes weight from the front wheel. This requires the rider to shift more weight over the front end on flatter turns. If you're used to older geometry, it will take some getting used to.

It's difficult to put too much weight over the front wheel without causing the rear wheel to wash first. Even if you did manage to overweight the front wheel and lost traction for a split second, it would be more likely to regain traction than wash out completely.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Newer longer geometries even out the weight between front and back. That's why they work so good.


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## JCWages (Jan 26, 2015)

I helped cure my girlfriend of this problem by using knobbier tires (from X-King to Vigilante) and showing her videos like this which help illustrate what is going wrong.

Pay attention at time 2:00+


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## rainiermadbeautiful (Feb 27, 2011)

F8L said:


> I helped cure my girlfriend of this problem by using knobbier tires (from X-King to Vigilante) and showing her videos like this which help illustrate what is going wrong.
> 
> Pay attention at time 2:00+


Thanks, the videos are helpful. Since the first crash I've been trying to drop my outside foot in corners to keep weight on the tires more. I'm running a 2.4 inch Trail King on the front, my favorite, super knobby.

Second crash, someone mentioned making a last second attempt at turning. I think I came in too fast, started skidding, reacted fast as I was speeding into a tree.

Both trails were hard packed, no berms, with a layer of loose/ball bearing rock on top. Easy to mess up by going to fast, but I'm still convinced I can do better haha.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

**** happens.
I haven't washed out the front tire and crashed for several years. This morning I did.

I picked myself up and rode on. I had the GoPro rolling as well. When I download it I'll add it in here, for your viewing pleasure.


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## Chippertheripper (Sep 10, 2014)

That's what you get for riding in sandals.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

rainiermadbeautiful said:


> Thanks, the videos are helpful. Since the first crash I've been trying to drop my outside foot in corners to keep weight on the tires more. I'm running a 2.4 inch Trail King on the front, my favorite, super knobby.
> 
> Second crash, someone mentioned making a last second attempt at turning. I think I came in too fast, started skidding, reacted fast as I was speeding into a tree.
> 
> Both trails were hard packed, no berms, with a layer of loose/ball bearing rock on top. Easy to mess up by going to fast, but I'm still convinced I can do better haha.


No berm, loose-over-hardpack will require you to slow your roll, BEFORE entering the turn. You can lean the bike over...but it will have to be counter-weighted with the outside pedal down, leg nearly straight and turn-in knee bent over top tube, pointing in the direction of exit.

If your front wheel starts skidding at mid-turn....you're going down, man.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> This is absolutely not true. The new geometry puts more weight on the back wheel and removes weight from the front wheel. This requires the rider to shift more weight over the front end on flatter turns. If you're used to older geometry, it will take some getting used to.
> 
> It's difficult to put too much weight over the front wheel without causing the rear wheel to wash first. Even if you did manage to overweight the front wheel and lost traction for a split second, it would be more likely to regain traction than wash out completely.


My 15' AM bike has new generation geo but not made quite as much for DH. I guess as a disclaimer this is what works for me. I have a hard time keeping my weight back for corners (habbits from motocross) unless I remind myself. I washed the front out a few times on non bermed corners before realizing my weight was to far forward. After reminding myself to keep my weight centered over the BB and stay light on the bars the front and rear start squirming instead of the front washing out. For bermed corners I couldn't track a smooth line because my forward body position was causing me to push on the bars and make the bike wander.

I do agree its hard to wash out the front end in berms or loamy dirt. If the front slips it gets a chance to dig in and recover.

Body position can be a different perspective for everyone. What one person thinks is heavy on the front another can think is perfect. Until they push the pace harder issues start coming up. Thats mostly why I suggested he should move his position back some. But that is only one aspect of the big picture....


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Chippertheripper said:


> That's what you get for riding in sandals.


I've been racking my brain on the culprit. Tire pressure, fork rebound, riding style, wrong tires for the conditions. And I'll be damned if it was my sandals that resulted in that front end tuck. If only I had some SPD compatable ones.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Everyone else has given you great comments. If I were you and I wanted to solve this, I would isolate variables:

1. tire pressure - nothing is more important in my unprofessional opinion
2. How are you weighting the wheel?
3. What tire are you using?
4. What's the soil conditions like? wet leaves? sand? loose? hero dirt?
5. If you still have questions, film yourself. Send a few helpful people who posted above the url. Don't post the video on this site for everyone to see it unless you have thick skin and can fend off the haters.


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## tims5377 (Oct 20, 2010)

Are you braking in the corner? If so, don't, brake before it. Tires are good at braking and good at cornering separately. Try and do both aggressively at the same time and you are going to have a bad time.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I've been racking my brain on the culprit. Tire pressure, fork rebound, riding style, wrong tires for the conditions. And I'll be damned if it was my sandals that resulted in that front end tuck. If only I had some SPD compatable ones.


Keen makes some, if that's how you roll. Or roll off.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

tims5377 said:


> Are you braking in the corner? If so, don't, brake before it. Tires are good at braking and good at cornering separately. Try and do both aggressively at the same time and you are going to have a bad time.


If you know how to slightly drag the brakes it makes a good traction control.


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## Boomchakabowwow (Sep 8, 2015)

i almost did this this evening!! i think i had too much weight up front and it was just too darn grabby..it plowed.

how i saved it is beyond me. i almost got pitched down a hill into some trees.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Refer to post #17

I promised you all the video, here it is.

My ride on Saturday, I haven't washed out the front wheel and crashed like this for several years. Lucky for me it's all caught on camera this time. 

I came in too hot a into a rock garden and before my aproach I may have grabbed too much front brake, not quite sure. It's all a blur. You've all seen the trail rash photos earlier well here's the GoPro footage of the event.

*Click here >*


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Refer to post #17
> 
> I promised you all the video, here it is.
> 
> ...


Ouch bro. It was definitely caused by what ever you were doing the first 45 seconds of the video. I think you were working a chubby with your top tube. Oh, sexy knickers bro. It definatley could have been worse, like one of those rocks to the knee. I'm glad that didn't happen.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Ouch bro. It was definitely caused by what ever you were doing the first 45 seconds of the video. I think you were working a chubby with your top tube. Oh, sexy knickers bro. It definatley could have been worse, like one of those rocks to the knee. I'm glad that didn't happen.


Knickers = FOX baggies

And here's the follow up video. I was riding so crappy that day I shut the camera off after this. 

Bobcat Ridge 10-17-15 #2 Video - Pinkbike


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Refer to post #17
> 
> I promised you all the video, here it is.
> 
> ...


Well, you should have know by now that by not shaving your legs, a washout was a sure thing.


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## tubbnation (Jul 6, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Refer to post #17
> 
> I promised you all the video, here it is.
> 
> ...


Glad you're alright, yo!

Loose junk on a trail's edge can wreak havoc (especially when carrying speed and turning your wheel slightly).


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

If you turn your bars into the turn while leaned over instead of counter steering, you are going to push the front tire. The rear tire wants to keep on the arc, but the front is scrubbing outside the arc. The more the front scrubs speed the faster the rear wants to lead. And when the rear tire wants to go first, you end up on your face


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## Clyde250 (Oct 18, 2013)

Looks like you got outside of the proper line, once that front tire slides off it's tough to correct. 

I had several washouts earlier this year, and looking as far ahead as possible definitely helps, as well as feathering the rear brake to keep the back end in line. I noticed they usually happened when I was taking a line that was too conservative. Whatever it is, hope you get it sorted.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Ducman said:


> If you turn your bars into the turn while leaned over instead of counter steering, you are going to push the front tire. The rear tire wants to keep on the arc, but the front is scrubbing outside the arc. The more the front scrubs speed the faster the rear wants to lead. And when the rear tire wants to go first, you end up on your face


Nope. A bicycle wheel doesn't have enough mass to "countersteer" like a motorcycle. What people do when "countersteering" a bicycle is to turn away from the actual turn to force the bike off balance and make it fall into the turn, it's quicker and easier to just push the bike down into the lean angle you want....but that has nothing to do with whether you wash out the front tire or not mid-turn.

Most front end washouts in higher speed turns are caused by too much weight on the front though.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Mass of the wheel has nothing to do with it.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Ducman said:


> Mass of the wheel has nothing to do with it.


Yep, good riders do nothing but countersteer at speed.


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## BmoreKen (Sep 27, 2004)

Ducman said:


> If you turn your bars into the turn while leaned over instead of counter steering, you are going to push the front tire. The rear tire wants to keep on the arc, but the front is scrubbing outside the arc. The more the front scrubs speed the faster the rear wants to lead. And when the rear tire wants to go first, you end up on your face


I think it's more simple than that. When the front wheel is turned, the contact patch shrinks and traction is lost. It looks like the rider first swerves a bit to the left to avoid some rocks, then has to turn a wee bit more sharply to make the right hand turn, leading to washout.

I'm wondering how you were balanced on the bike at the time. It almost looks like you're leaning with the bike, rather than leaning the bike under you.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Ducman said:


> Mass of the wheel has nothing to do with it.





Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Yep, good riders do nothing but countersteer at speed.


Turning the wheel away from the turn to unbalance the bike and allow it to fall into a turn is a waste of time, and the distance you're covering during that time. After you're leaned over, you turn the bars into the turn...because if you didn't, the lean angle would continue to increase, and the turn radius would continue to tighten until you're on the ground, because you've unbalanced it in the first place.

Just skip a step and push the bars to the angle you want....and I'm pretty sure that you won't see "good riders" wobbling around the trail either. You'll see "good riders" making fluid and purposeful movements.

I didn't see Fabien wobbling around, turning out to imbalance the bike, at any point of this video, it's always just "Lean the bike."








Ducman said:


> The rear tire wants to keep on the arc, but the front is scrubbing outside the arc. The more the front scrubs speed the faster the rear wants to lead. And when the rear tire wants to go first, you end up on your face


What does that even mean, the rear tire will always have a tighter arc in any vehicle with inline wheels.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

richde said:


> Most front end washouts in higher speed turns are caused by too much weight on the front though.


Nope.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

There is some absolutely horrible advice being given in the thread.

1. Everybody counter steers to begin a turn, it is how you initiate a turn on a bike. It is a very small movement that you do on every single turn without realizing it. The reason by counter steering is emphasized is because it allows you to control the inevitable losses of traction that occur when you are riding fast. And most importantly, to do it properly you have to weight the front end.

2. Weight the front end!!! Do not shift your weight to back of the bike to turn. In order to carve a corner there must be sufficient weight on the front end. Sufficient depends on a lot of factors (grade, grip levels, ect...). Good rule of the thumb, too much weight on the front the rear wheel slides (loose) to little the front end slides (tight). On a bike loose is save-able, tight not so much.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Nope.


Here's Fabien, proving you wrong....again.






There is no need to emphasize weighting the front end, just staying centered in a basic attack position will give you a good amount of grip (assuming a modern geometry bike), although moving it back will give you even more by allowing more of your weight to be on the back tire that isn't trying to perform two functions like the front is. This is referring to the mid-corner and exit, of course. You enter and initiate a turn with the front and exit on the rear...but most of the time, washouts occur in mid-corner when the cornering load is higher than at entry and there's still the same amount of (too much) weight on the front.

If you want, I can dump a long list of instructional videos that show this...

Here's one, note the arm extension:





No mid corner braking either, it does nothing for traction, only decreases it.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

richde said:


> I didn't see Fabien wobbling around, turning out to imbalance the bike, at any point of this video, it's always just "Lean the bike."


Ummm. Watch the video again and you will see that he starts his turn with a counter steer. He clearly demonstrates this several times in the video.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

LMN said:


> There is some absolutely horrible advice being given in the thread.
> 
> 1. Everybody counter steers to begin a turn, it is how you initiate a turn on a bike. It is a very small movement that you do on every single turn without realizing it. The reason by counter steering is emphasized is because it allows you to control the inevitable losses of traction that occur when you are riding fast. And most importantly, to do it properly you have to weight the front end.
> 
> 2. Weight the front end!!! Do not shift your weight to back of the bike to turn. In order to carve a corner there must be sufficient weight on the front end. Sufficient depends on a lot of factors (grade, grip levels, ect...). Good rule of the thumb, too much weight on the front the rear wheel slides (loose) to little the front end slides (tight). On a bike loose is save-able, tight not so much.


And the faster you go the more you have to counter steer. Especially when you are quickly transitioning from turn to turn. The counter steer is how you quickly get the bike to change direction.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

LMN said:


> There is some absolutely horrible advice being given in the thread.
> 
> 1. Everybody counter steers to begin a turn, it is how you initiate a turn on a bike. It is a very small movement that you do on every single turn without realizing it. The reason by counter steering is emphasized is because it allows you to control the inevitable losses of traction that occur when you are riding fast. And most importantly, to do it properly you have to weight the front end.
> 
> 2. Weight the front end!!! Do not shift your weight to back of the bike to turn. In order to carve a corner there must be sufficient weight on the front end. Sufficient depends on a lot of factors (grade, grip levels, ect...). Good rule of the thumb, too much weight on the front the rear wheel slides (loose) to little the front end slides (tight). On a bike loose is save-able, tight not so much.


You don't have to countersteer, you can just push the bars to initiate the lean. That's all countersteering is doing anyways, you're turning (steering) away (counter) from the turn, which unbalances the bike and causes it to fall away from your counter steering motion. Countersteering is just an inefficient way of doing it.

There is no "loose" or "tight," there is either grip or slide, and changing the steering angle to counteract the ensuing increase in lean angle (as the front end slides, the lean angle increases because the front tire is sliding away from you) won't help either. It will either grip again through the grace of the MTB gods, you'll have to put your foot down to take weight off the front or you'll fall.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

LMN said:


> Ummm. Watch the video again and you will see that he starts his turn with a counter steer. He clearly demonstrates this several times in the video.


The only countersteering going on is while he's skidding around the corner in the beginning.

In every turn, his outside pedal drops, he pushes the inside grip down and his outside elbow goes up, those are not countersteering motions...and you can see it from the chest mount camera views, his bars don't turn until he turns in after leaning over.

That's why it's NEVER MENTIONED. It's just "lean the bike," and what's the quickest way to lean the bike? By pushing the inside grip down/outside grip up.

Here he is breaking down weight distribution, among other things:





The only place you'll see countersteering discussed with bicycles is when it comes to road bikes, and it applies to very gentle turns in MTB too although they aren't what's being discussed here, simply because on a road or a gentle corner on a trail, you have much more space to operate in. Pushing the bars to lean the bike works great on a road bike in tight corners as well, although it is a lot quicker and takes some getting used to.

But as it applies to this thread, barring any mid-corner change in conditions, losing the front is usually due to a lack of rearward weight transfer. Every time you see a pro railing a corner, they aren't going to have a forward weight bias, always to the rear.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

LMN said:


> For example, a fork that has the rebound set a little quick might kickout on you mid-turn. I suspect, however, it is a technique issue, you doing something that is putting you on the ground.


This is pretty interesting. I had a pretty good crash a few weeks back down a steep and rocky descent. I just lost the front wheel going through some chunk at speed. I've done it dozens of times with no crashes. This was my second run with the new fork. I was playing with the rebound and set it quicker than I usually do. I just felt my bar twist to the right and I went down. Slammed my hip and it left a nice sized bruise.

Besides user error...could the faster rebound been a contributor? It's fast and real rough so I figured to try a faster rebound. I usually set my rebound two clicks towards the "+" from the middle. So this time I went two clicks from the middle towards the "-".


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Counter steering is an extremely advanced art form when it comes to riding bikes, motorcycles and driving cars fast. It doesn't surprise me that a lot of you don't get it. It's something that you have to open your mind to. And, once you get it, it opens up a whole new world of speed and what's possible.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

richde said:


> The only countersteering going on is while he's skidding around the corner in the beginning.


I see him counter steering at the entrance of every single turn. You just aren't picking it out.

Every single mountain bike instructor will tell you that a counter steer initiates a turn and that counter steering is done throughout the turn. That is how you control the lean angle. It is a very small movement, that everybody does (including yourself) without realizing.

"Lean in" is the worst possible advice you can give. You tell some one to lean in they put their weight on the inside of the bike, which will quickly dump them on the ground. I know, just last week I had a rather spectacular crash because instead of planting that outside foot and counter steering through the turn, I got scared and leaned in and hit the ground.

I know I am not going to convince you on this. But to everyone else, don't listen to him he is giving really bad advice.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Funny thread: There are so many variables that take place in a wash out crash that there's no way of pin pointing what "exactly" happened. Trust me it happens so fast all you have time for is thinking of your loved ones. 

Give it a break: Or give it a brake. 

My crash video above just happened coincidentally when this thread had appeared. What happened? I was off my game and came in hot way left of where I should have been. I drove the front tire off the edge of the trail. My counter steer provided a washout and I slammed so fast to the ground there was no saving it. I also had low tire pressure than what I normally run and Kenda Nevegals. Which most of you know have built a reputation for washing out. 

This is one wash out crash and my take on what and how it happened. Am I right? Probably not. Every crash and every wash out crash is different. It cracks me up reading some of these posts and the thought process in why and how a wash out happened and how it could have been avoided. I've ridden for many years and this last wash out crash was the first in several years.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

LMN said:


> I know I am not going to convince you on this. But to everyone else, don't listen to him he is giving really bad advice.


That really wasn't fair of me to say that. I apologize.

What I am going to do is I am going to try your advice out. Currently I ride very aggressively over the front end, and I definitely initiate my turns with counter steer and in fact counter steer through out the turn. And not to brag, but I am pretty quick. I excel on trails that put an emphasis on cornering. So if following your advice makes me faster I have nothing but thanks for you.


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## legitposter (Feb 16, 2015)

First of all, wear elbow and knee pads at all times. Even XC riding. It's like wearing a seatbelt in a vehicle.

Second, get better tires. Done.


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

Rod said:


> Everyone else has given you great comments. If I were you and I wanted to solve this, I would isolate variables:
> 
> 1. tire pressure - nothing is more important in my unprofessional opinion
> 2. How are you weighting the wheel?
> ...


This really is a good summary of hunting down options to fix it.

Don't underestimate the usefulness of slapping big tacky front tires on there - 2.5 DHF, Breakout, MagicMary, or something like that. Run the pressure low-ish to maximize contact patch (just not so much the tire and rim are taking needless abuse).

Weighting the front also has to do with fork setup -- as already discussed the rebound is a good place to start looking, but I'd look at maybe running some slightly lower pressure and turning up the low speed compression (since high speed compression is likely fixed - assuming so in this case). The lower air spring pressure means you'll be able to load it a bit more, and the LSC increase will keep it from sitting lower in the travel - downside is that unless the fork is set up really progressive it'll either bottom too easily, or need an air spring spacer to make it more progressive (overall not a bad thing). A touch slower on the rebound damping (not more than a couple clicks for a small air spring sag delta) will tidy all that up.
The last part of that is your positioning - crazy as it sounds, really focusing on heel drop, especially on braking and entry, will actually help, since that gives you a better platform to shift your weight forward without feeling like you'll get ejected over the bars. Yes, it's moving your mass backwards coming into the turn, but it's letting you use the rear tire to brake more, the front tire to create yaw, and the stability of being lower sets you up to lean the bike instead of yourself more easily. On longer turns, getting the outside leg down will help significantly with that, but it's not a panacea - just lowers your center of mass.
Finally, you can always regain speed easier accelerating early off the apex of the turn - coming in too hot usually means you have to shed speed rapidly just to make the turn. Over-stopping it early (or feeling like you have) tends to be faster, and leaves you with more margin on front grip mid-turn.
Stuff to consider.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Counter steering is an extremely advanced art form when it comes to riding bikes, motorcycles and driving cars fast. It doesn't surprise me that a lot of you don't get it. It's something that you have to open your mind to. And, once you get it, it opens up a whole new world of speed and what's possible.


Because you're the only person in the world who's ridden, and maybe even raced, a motorcycle....
Countersteering works in two different ways on motorcycles, and one of them simply doesn't apply because as I said before, there simply not enough mass in a bicycle wheel to create the same sort of gyroscopic effect. That gyroscopic effect is what makes a streetbike dive into a lean, you aren't really turning the bars, more like pushing...but that's not the point.



LMN said:


> I see him counter steering at the entrance of every single turn. You just aren't picking it out.
> 
> Every single mountain bike instructor will tell you that a counter steer initiates a turn and that counter steering is done throughout the turn. That is how you control the lean angle. It is a very small movement, that everybody does (including yourself) without realizing.
> 
> ...


Who said "lean in?" I'm also not sure if you're creating some argument that I didn't make.

I said push the bike into the lean angle you want. Sure, you countersteer, and steer into the corner to maintain or change the lean angle, but that's not what we're talking about. Pushing the bars is far faster than doing some wobbly turn out, let the bike fall in, then turn in to keep from falling over, maneuver. Point being is that the majority of the motion is from manipulating the bike side to side, not steering out, then in, and the speed in which they lean over, and the motions they make with their arms show it happening. I never said you never countersteer, because that is silly, what I said was that you initiate the turn largely, and almost exclusively, by pushing the bike into the turn. Pushing the bike down into the turn also leaves you relatively upright, kinda like how you see people who corner well actually corner.

Fabien refers to "throwing the bike around," countersteering is the exact opposite of that, countersteering is letting the bike move, not forcing it to move.

If you simply countersteered and then leaned your body in the opposite direction, like how you're supposed to do, they would largely cancel each other out because you'd be stabilizing the instability you induced. Countersteering leans your body, because that is the main mass that is placed off balance, and has to fall into the turn in order to be caught by turning in. Leaning your bike, not your body (like Fabien and others say) is simply not a product of countersteering. People weigh 5 (or more) times as much as their bicycles, they do not need to rely on the weight of their bike to move itself like with a motorcycle, they can simply move it to where they want without any additional time wasted or monkey motions made.

Now if you're just cruising around a parking lot, or riding your road bike, you can (I can), and do, just lazily countersteer, let the bike fall into the turn and then steer into the turn. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about cornering quickly at the limits of traction. and when you do that you don't go weaving all over the trail before entering a turn. Before you say anything, weaving IS what you're doing when you're trying to countersteer a bicycle, you're turning out in order to place yourself off balance so you fall into the corner. Just push on the bars and get the bike leaned over, it's much quicker and makes it far easier to hold the line you want to before entering the turn.

It is literally all in the Barel video, it's just that simple. Applying it is hard, but knowing it is easy, but you can't apply it until you know it.

After racing an enduro in 2014, I decided to actually try and ride quickly and ride well in the twisty bits, so I sat down and thought about what I was doing, looked at what pros were doing and saying, and have made massive gains in that time doing exactly what I'm talking about. Now I'm one of the quicker riders (winning races in Cat 2 and holding top 5% results in Strava) in this not-so-small town of almost 2M with literally thousands of other people putting down times on the same trails.

So if you're going to say that to initiate a turn I'm better off to do the wobbly turn out, then turn in, countersteer game instead of just pushing the bike down into the corner, I'm going to say you either don't understand what I'm saying or suggest that you keep riding slowly on nice open trails and I'm going to continue to do what works for me and many others on the kinds of trails that I ride.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

richde said:


> Because you're the only person in the world who's ridden, and maybe even raced, a motorcycle....
> Countersteering works in two different ways on motorcycles, and one of them simply doesn't apply because as I said before, there simply not enough mass in a bicycle wheel to create the same sort of gyroscopic effect. That gyroscopic effect is what makes a streetbike dive into a lean, you aren't really turning the bars, more like pushing...but that's not the point.
> 
> Who said "lean in?" I'm also not sure if you're creating some argument that I didn't make.
> ...


**** dude, your talking yourself in circles.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

richde said:


> Most front end washouts in higher speed turns are caused by too much weight on the front though.


No. Just no.

Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

8iking VIIking said:


> No. Just no.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk


It does happen from time to time.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

richde said:


> After racing an enduro in 2014, I decided to actually try and ride quickly and ride well in the twisty bits, so I sat down and thought about what I was doing, looked at what pros were doing and saying, and have made massive gains in that time doing exactly what I'm talking about. Now I'm one of the quicker riders (winning races in Cat 2 and holding top 5% results in Strava) in this not-so-small town of almost 2M with literally thousands of other people putting down times on the same trails.
> 
> So if you're going to say that to initiate a turn I'm better off to do the wobbly turn out, then turn in, countersteer game instead of just pushing the bike down into the corner, I'm going to say you either don't understand what I'm saying or suggest that you keep riding slowly on nice open trails and I'm going to continue to do what works for me and many others on the kinds of trails that I ride.


Careful with your assumptions about my riding level. I have no doubt that you are a reasonably competent rider. What I am challenging you on is your ability to break down how to ride a bike quickly.

I currently do not race Enduro or any gravity events for that matter. But that is no because I don't know how to descent. Way, way back I was an elite level DH racer, nothing special but still elite. After a couple of hard crashes that I was fortunate enough to walk away from injury free, I retired from any kind of gravity racing. Although I hate talking about how I on Strava, last year I lost a bunch descending KOMs to some guy from Australia with name JG 53. I wonder what JG stands for?

Nowadays, I am a cycling coach. People come to me become faster. And although I primarily coach XC racers and have had success with them at the highest level, I also coach or have coached racers who compete in EWS or WC DH. If you live in Western Canada and are an elite level mountain bike rider of any discipline, I am one of the names that comes up when you are looking for a coach.

Your race results are good. If you are winning Cat 2 Enduro's you are competent. But follow my advice, counter steer to enter turn and weight your front wheel and you will find yourself cornering quicker.


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## BmoreKen (Sep 27, 2004)

I came here hoping to find some good advice. What do you do when you come to an off-camber turn with off-camber roots? (It seems all the videos show either nicely bermed turns or turns devoid of rocks and roots.) Is it best to:

a) stay centered, keeping your CG over the bottom bracket by keeping weight on the pedals
b) weight the front wheel, or 
c) unweight the front wheel

Also:
d) lean the bike but stay centered over the bike, or
e) lean with the bike

I want to say, stay centered over the BB and lean the bike, staying centered over it, because then you can react to any slips of the front wheel. I find my worst washouts happened while riding rigid, where I would lean back as a reaction against the bumps, but leading to unstable front end.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LMN said:


> 2. Weight the front end!!! Do not shift your weight to back of the bike to turn. In order to carve a corner there must be sufficient weight on the front end. Sufficient depends on a lot of factors (grade, grip levels, ect...). Good rule of the thumb, too much weight on the front the rear wheel slides (loose) to little the front end slides (tight). On a bike loose is save-able, tight not so much.


I'm not doubting that^ but I do believe it's possible to wash out a front wheel by weighting it too much. I don't go down all that often but several times I've stacked it up due to a front wheel washout on a corner and I believe they were at least in part due to too much weight on the front wheel. I'd consider myself a decent rider but no pro so it's hard for me to break down exactly what happens, but usually I've been going pretty fast, slightly downhill, and in an aggressive "attack" position. The front wheel seems to dig, jackknife and send me over the bars in one fail swoop. I realize there are other technique issues involved but my natural reaction has been to move my weight back a little and when I do that I have no fear of repeating the deed, and haven't so far.

Maybe people have different versions of what a weighted front wheel is?


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

ALL your weight should be driving through your bottom bracket, no matter what the situation. Every pro DHer/Enduro rider out there weights their bottom bracket going through a turn (even Fabian) because it is more stable and provides more traction. If you are intentionally shifting your weight forward to weight the front end while trying to turn, you are begging for a washout.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I never intentionally weight the front wheel but I think I may inadvertently do it sometimes, I do try to keep the weight over the bb.

I have seen pro downhillers stack it up in the same way I described so I think no matter what your skill level is it can still happen if you're a tad off.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Thustlewhumber said:


> ALL your weight should be driving through your bottom bracket, no matter what the situation. Every pro DHer/Enduro rider out there weights their bottom bracket going through a turn (even Fabian) because it is more stable and provides more traction. If you are intentionally shifting your weight forward to weight the front end while trying to turn, you are begging for a washout.


That tends to keep weight evenly distributed between the front and rear wheels, which is very important. That balance is what cornering is all about.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

One more chiming in. I've loved fast cornering from the beginning (mine) and always pushed my bikes in the turns to find tractions' limit. What McycleShawn and LMN say works, but... It helps to think about the bike as moving under you. We use our outside hand/arm to PUSH the BAR over so the bike leans into the corner. Real important to keep our body nearly upright. We won't be exactly straight up, with inside shoulder dropped and our two shoulders angled to face the corner exit. This works very well and is efficient. I'm not fast compared to 20% of the riders I see on the trail, but I corner faster than many guys who will drop me in the climbs. When I feel front tire pushing (sliding) in the turns I focus on PUSHING that outside bar-end over and down. Visualize holding the front tire contact patch onto the trail by pushing down on the handlebar. This works well, is simple to practice and quickly becomes habit. Imagine no more braking before a turn, you exit a lot faster.

using wide bars helps 740 minimum


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## grumpy old biker (Jul 29, 2014)

I have grown to like front tire that has quite tall side knobs, that seem to help a lot with washouts, if rear tire is without those tall knobs, that creates somewhat nice balance where I can trust the bike more.

Gap between side knobs and other thread seem to help also a bit. 

This is of course when there is such softer stuff where knobs can dig in.

Continental tires are great, but faster ones are not the best for front when leaning aggressively as they lack of larger side knobs. 

What thread there is at center seem not to matter so much, for rear tire when climbing that matters, also somewhat to braking for front tire, but for leaning traction it seems to be that only side knobs, their size and placement seem to have effect, again on surfaces where knobs can dig in.

On loose crushed stone things are bit different as it probably will be on very hard solid surfaces, which I have not experienced. 

Bit lower front tire pressure and higher rear tire pressure does also help, up to a point, too loose pressure at front and again it increases washing out, too high at rear and climbing is more difficult.


For bumps and such, I let bike move and my arms are suspension, trying to be smoothest possible, lock up front suspension if you wish to become better at this skill, then I don't descent seated, again because my legs are the suspension and I smooth out the bumps, so my bike never really launches off from bumps.

Bike might shake and bounce a little, but my head is not bouncing in relation to ground, that way bike rides with more grip I have found out.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

BmoreKen said:


> I came here hoping to find some good advice. What do you do when you come to an off-camber turn with off-camber roots? (It seems all the videos show either nicely bermed turns or turns devoid of rocks and roots.) Is it best to:
> I want to say, stay centered over the BB and lean the bike, staying centered over it, because then you can react to any slips of the front wheel. I find my worst washouts happened while riding rigid, where I would lean back as a reaction against the bumps, but leading to unstable front end.


You are correct about staying upright and centered over the bike, BUT (always a complication) moving back over the saddle lightens front wheel. Light front wheels will pop over steps and roots, even angled ones. You get to a point where you feel the front moving out and will automatically push the bars a bit to correct the bike. It is so fun to save a frontend wash-out. I was pretty good at this, then went tubeless, the lower tire pressure (18-20lb) seems to help you feel it AS the tire starts to slide.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

This article was totally unrelated (I think someone asked a question about bar height?), but it went off into a tangent about how/why you should weight your bike, and I think it might be relevant here. (Andy is the head BetterRide instructor)

Bar Height - DirtSmart MTB


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

This thread is rapidly becoming one of legend.

Like this one >>> http://forums.mtbr.com/general-disc...g-983858.html?highlight=Short+stems+wide+bars


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> This thread is rapidly becoming one of legend.
> 
> Like this one >>> http://forums.mtbr.com/general-disc...g-983858.html?highlight=Short+stems+wide+bars


Give it a chance to turn into sex, religion and politics.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Give it a chance to turn into sex, religion and politics.


Conservatives weight their front wheel more than liberals. That is fact

Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

Great thread. There is some legendary gibberish offered with appropriate and expected hostility.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

I didnt read every post in this thread because my head started to hurt with peoples rationale of the issue.

What I did see is that nobody has mentioned your body position. Everyone always points out something on the bike...tire pressure, fork rebound, side knobs, blah blah. If you position yourself correctly on the bike, you practically have infinite traction.

My assessment is that your body positioning was too far inside the bike when cornering...ie your center of gravity (hips) were too far inside of the bikes center of gravity (bottom bracket). You can get away with this by having burly tires, a soft fork, but it doesnt change the core issue.

When this happens, your weight is pushing through the bike, instead of down into it...causing your front end to push out and you do a nice belly flop. Counterweight more while you turn...that is displace your hips more to the outside of the corner and this will drive your weight down into the bike, not through the bike.

The degree of this requirement varies on every corner you take, that sense is developed with experience. It depends on the camber of the corner, bermed or not berm, etc. 

There is a reason why dudes can shred a road bike on MTB trails faster than most people can on mountain bikes and that reason is body position, weight distribution, and weighting and unweighting of the bike.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

Right again LaX.. Early on is a post w/ a link to one of Fabien Barels' instruction video. As you stated it is about weight pushing the tire contact patch into the trail. Barel and Seb Kemp talk about using your hands to do it, to push the bar over so the bike leans into corner AND down so the tire will stay on your line. It works and is as big a thrill as any drop, when you stick a tight corner at speed it is fun!


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## robinfisk (Mar 10, 2007)

I wish I had not read this thread, it is making me confused about how to steer my bike


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

To many details to agree and disagree with on this thread. I might be able to help clear up the counter-steering mess without going into crazy detail about it. I have been riding motorcycles all my life and actually studied the physics of how they work. On ANY single track vehicle a counter-steer input is required to change any sort of direction (even if the bikes design does it for you via body weight movement). While moving you are riding on round tires that are tracking in line with eachother. You can't simply push the bike down into a lean without pushing your body equally in the opposite direction (resulting in you going straight). I can go into endless detail on this but I'll keep it to one example. While driving a car if you turn left, weight transfers to the right. Given that fact, what would happen if you turned the handlebars left on a vehicle balanced on two wheels? Weight will transfer right resulting in a right turn. A single track vehicle cannot change direction without first hanging a weight transfer in the desired direction. The quickest and most effective way is a counter-steer input. I would explain this but I wont for the sake of keeping it short. Gyroscopic procession has no effect. Its been tested and even at road race speeds only made up to a 12% effect on lean angle changes.

I will say for most people counter-steering is already ingrained in your brain. So to navigate a trail simply thinking lean in can be a good way to keep it simple at high speeds.

After a steering input that puts you on the right line; the bikes geometry kicks in to keep the bike stable to track through a corner or straight. From there being tense on the bars interupts the built in stability of your bikes design and creates instability.


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## JMUSuperman (Jun 14, 2008)

Maybe try wider bars to help put more weight over the front wheel. The stock bars are 750 on the Slash -- depending on your height you might feel better with something in the 780 or even 800 range (I'm riding 800's on mine). I also just replaced the front tire on mine with a Bontrager SE5 and it made the worlds worth of difference. A lot more cornering control than the stock XR4. The difference is pretty shocking.


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

Gotta be able to feel the bike. Not all use one technique. I've learned to feel the bike and ride within the limits. Never washed out.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

LMN said:


> Careful with your assumptions about my riding level. I have no doubt that you are a reasonably competent rider. What I am challenging you on is your ability to break down how to ride a bike quickly.
> 
> I currently do not race Enduro or any gravity events for that matter. But that is no because I don't know how to descent. Way, way back I was an elite level DH racer, nothing special but still elite. After a couple of hard crashes that I was fortunate enough to walk away from injury free, I retired from any kind of gravity racing. Although I hate talking about how I on Strava, last year I lost a bunch descending KOMs to some guy from Australia with name JG 53. I wonder what JG stands for?
> 
> ...


I was out riding both Friday and Saturday, paying close attention to every turn since it was on a nice and slow MTB tour with a slower guest, and you know what I never did unconsciously? Turn out in order to turn in.

That's what countersteering is, turning the bar the *opposite* way, not just more or less in the same direction, but the opposite direction in which you want to turn.

Every time I came up to a corner, it was just as it is in the Barel videos, push the bars, which leans the bike in, turn in....push the bars, and it leans in, turn in. Applying that push on the bars with a drop of the outside pedal makes the motion even more natural, smooth, and fast.

Go out, hit some fast tighter corners and observe about what your body is doing without you actually thinking about it, I have a feeling you're doing what I'm saying even though you thought you were doing something differently. I assume that you are hitting corners at some sort of respectable pace, you're probably just doing it (like you should) without thinking about it.

I'm not trying to say that I'm the guru or anything (I'll defer to Fabien and others for that), because for most kinds of technical riding, although I can nail most stuff pretty easily, I'm not even close to being as sure of what I'm doing, and I am NOT a crazy "**** it, I'll go for it" kind of rider, but for cornering, I've done a whole lot of looking, thinking, and riding on it...and I've done rather well, despite being at a fitness and age disadvantage.



Fajita Dave said:


> To many details to agree and disagree with on this thread. I might be able to help clear up the counter-steering mess without going into crazy detail about it. I have been riding motorcycles all my life and actually studied the physics of how they work. On ANY single track vehicle a counter-steer input is required to change any sort of direction (even if the bikes design does it for you via body weight movement). While moving you are riding on round tires that are tracking in line with eachother. You can't simply push the bike down into a lean without pushing your body equally in the opposite direction (resulting in you going straight). I can go into endless detail on this but I'll keep it to one example. While driving a car if you turn left, weight transfers to the right. Given that fact, what would happen if you turned the handlebars left on a vehicle balanced on two wheels? Weight will transfer right resulting in a right turn. A single track vehicle cannot change direction without first hanging a weight transfer in the desired direction. The quickest and most effective way is a counter-steer input. I would explain this but I wont for the sake of keeping it short. Gyroscopic procession has no effect. Its been tested and even at road race speeds only made up to a 12% effect on lean angle changes.
> 
> I will say for most people counter-steering is already ingrained in your brain. So to navigate a trail simply thinking lean in can be a good way to keep it simple at high speeds.
> 
> After a steering input that puts you on the right line; the bikes geometry kicks in to keep the bike stable to track through a corner or straight. From there being tense on the bars interupts the built in stability of your bikes design and creates instability.


I've ridden and raced (road) motorcycles as well, and there's a point where you go from road bicycle style "countersteering" to actual motorcycle "countersteering," and not only does a motorcycle wheel/tire have far more mass and therefore far more gyroscopic effect, it also applies at higher speeds. Higher speeds than a bicycle typically achieves. Maybe if you get up to 40+mph and want to slam the bike down to an extreme lean angle, it might work, but otherwise...not so much. To countersteer a bicycle, you do the same thing as on a street motorcycle in a parking lot, make a gross turn away from the intended direction of the turn, allow the bike('s and rider's mass) to fall in, and then turn in so you don't just fall over. I gave up on motorcycles a long time ago (because everybody wants to kill you and after a while only race tracks are fun), but I remember tossing my shoulder into the desired direction of the turn at low speeds, and then turning in to maintain and control the lean angle.

The thing is that you don't ride a MTB like a street motorcycle, the speeds and the level of grip available are drastically different. You ride it like a dirt bike, where you lean the bike into the corner while keeping your body more upright....weight on the outside peg/pedal and steering into the turn instead of keeping the steering angle more neutral like you would on a street motorcycle and not completely relying on being on the edge of the tire to turn. Nobody is going to suggest that they don't turn the bars in the intended direction of the turn, right? If you did that on a street motorcycle, you'd simply stand the bike back up. Which only goes to illustrate how little the two skills overlap...although the ability to pick your turn in point does remain mostly the same.

I'd say most (if any) countersteering is done at the exit of a corner, rather than the entry. That's when you turn further into the (for example) right turn in order to get the bike upright, or to aid you in transitioning to an upcoming (again, for example) left turn....but in the transitioning phase, you should also be pushing the bars to lean the bike into the next turn, along with going from your left pedal down to the right pedal down as you start to push the bike over to the left.

But regardless of how you're thinking about it, keep in mind that unlike a motorcycle, you weigh several times as much as the bike and can throw it around almost at will, so relying on the mass of your body to get you into a turn is much slower than simply moving the bike into the position you want it to be in.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

The bullchit and lack of basic understanding of how to corner a bike runs deep in this thread!


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

richde said:


> Here's Fabien, proving you wrong....again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lololololol. No. He still has a bunch of weight on the front wheel. Most washouts occur because too much weight is inside of the bike rather than above it. Taking weight off the front wheel on a flat, loose corner will result in either plowing through the corner or washing out. You reference Fabian a lot, incorrectly, btw, but you still appear to have no actual riding experience.


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## boomslang64 (Feb 18, 2015)

richde said:


> Every time I came up to a corner, it was just as it is in the Barel videos, push the bars, which leans the bike in, turn in....push the bars, and it leans in, turn in. Applying that push on the bars with a drop of the outside pedal makes the motion even more natural, smooth, and fast.
> 
> .


There must be some confusion of terms going on in this thread. Are you saying you push the bars in the direction of the turn to initiate lean? That's physically impossible. Pushing the bars in one direction will always cause you to lean toward the other.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

boomslang64 said:


> There must be some confusion of terms going on in this thread.


It's just richde. He has no idea what's going on.


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## kmiglis (Jan 3, 2014)

Every now and then i had some occasional washouts and could not figure why especially when i altered the ha and the length of my stem then i changed the cornering position and all my problems solved.
The stem is 35mm and the ha 66 on an enduro 160mm rig so when i am on a twisty trail i lean a lot in the attack position and when the speed picks up i drop the outside foot down and the inside arm pushes down, when the speed picks up really good at fast flowy trails on even surface i climb on the front and extend the inside leg as i lean like mx moto style with all the confidence and no more washouts just skidding at the rear controllable if traction breaks.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

richde said:


> But regardless of how you're thinking about it, keep in mind that unlike a motorcycle, you weigh several times as much as the bike and can throw it around almost at will, so relying on the mass of your body to get you into a turn is much slower than simply moving the bike into the position you want it to be in.


Physics (the mild amount of it I know) would suggest counter-steering remains the same among all single track vehicles. Gyroscopic procession of the front wheel has been tested on road race bikes. Even at speeds well over 100mph procession only made up as much as 12% of the effect on counter-steering. Procession is not required in the least bit for counter-steering to work. The weight of rider vs. vehicle does really screw with a lot of details as to how its applied like you mentioned. Which is where riding techniques can be drastically different from mtb to dirt bike to street bike. Which also lets you get away with things on a mtb that you could never do on a motorcycle.

A counter-steer is the quickest and most effecient way to change direction at any point of riding regardless of vehicle weight or size (unless you have 3 or more wheels). If you don't need to change your direction or arc through a corner than no or very little input should be required. Of course mtb trails aren't smooth which throws in a bunch of variables but that doesn't simply through physics out the window and steering changes for that moment in time. Whether on-road or off-road it remains the same.

Corner entry and corner exit need a CS input or any other time you decide to change your line. If you did not use steering input, the bike would literally respond as if you were riding without hands on the handlebars; which I'm pretty sure we have all done. It will turn with body movement, but its way to slow to miss a tree or safely negotiate a corner. Look up California Superbike School's "No BS bike." Of course a mtb will respond faster with no hands than a streetbike because of weight, however, the basic geometry of the bike and physics remain the same.

To tie this in a bit with the OP. If hes thinking he needs to weight the front but actually ends up putting pressure and tightly gripping the handlebars trying to steer it through a corner. That is countering the built in geometry of the bike and creating instability in an inherently stable design. If you stay relaxed (if possible given the terrain) it lets the bike do most of the work for you and remains stable. If you need to adjust the line a smooth and simple CS input is mostly all it takes.


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## BikeIntelligencer (Jun 5, 2009)

After rocking all summer with no crashes, I too have washed out twice in the past 10 days. I was truly pissed as it was on trails I ride constantly, and I wasn't doing anything different except maybe going a bit faster because conditions are dry, etc. But here's the deal: Too dry. The dust has formed a super slick layer on stuff, esp. rocky and loose, that just plain doesn't hold at speed the way it did previous times I rode it. So it's as simple as that. When (hopefully) the rains come and trails tack up, no more washouts. It's not the bike, not the rider. It's the conditions! (Santa Cruz)


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## grumpy old biker (Jul 29, 2014)

BikeIntelligencer said:


> After rocking all summer with no crashes, I too have washed out twice in the past 10 days. I was truly pissed as it was on trails I ride constantly, and I wasn't doing anything different except maybe going a bit faster because conditions are dry, etc. But here's the deal: Too dry. The dust has formed a super slick layer on stuff, esp. rocky and loose, that just plain doesn't hold at speed the way it did previous times I rode it. So it's as simple as that. When (hopefully) the rains come and trails tack up, no more washouts. It's not the bike, not the rider. It's the conditions! (Santa Cruz)


Everytime when first snow comes, motorist blame the conditions from the crashes.

But wouldn't it be that rider/driver fails reading the conditions and thus rider error?

I have not heard about conditions to sneak behind the tree and washing out front wheels of suspicious riders, but every season I read magazines claiming slippery road getting car driver off the road / crashing, fairly amusing, imo.

So far every slip that I have had, has been my own failure of reading the road/conditions, sometimes conditions might be challenging, but reading them is one of the most important skills.

If one can't read conditions he can't apply proper techniques and speed to situation.


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## BikeIntelligencer (Jun 5, 2009)

grumpy old biker said:


> If one can't read conditions he can't apply proper techniques and speed to situation.


That's why there were so many crashes at Red Bull Rampage this year. Guys like Paul Bas and Bearclaw and Sam Reynolds, they couldn't read the conditions. If you can't read the wind you might as well pack it in and go home.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

I was thinking about crashing from over-weighting the front wheel, and I think a lot of those are not washouts, but rather the result of over-compressing the front suspension, which packs it up and can lead to a forceful rebound at an inopportune moment. Just a thought I had while actually riding my bike tye other day.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Quite a bit of over analyzing going on in here. Tires meet dirt: Is the dirt lose and dry? Are the tires wrong for that type of dirt? Is your psi the correct amount for those conditions and your weight. <<< The basics the rest of it comes from riding experience. 

The rest of all that over analyzing up there is pure mumbo jumbo.


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## LaloKera (Jul 31, 2015)

After watching the video, Need to Hold your Line.


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## LaloKera (Jul 31, 2015)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I was thinking about crashing from over-weighting the front wheel, and I think a lot of those are not washouts, but rather the result of over-compressing the front suspension, which packs it up and can lead to a forceful rebound at an inopportune moment. Just a thought I had while actually riding my bike tye other day.


You might have a point there.


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## LaloKera (Jul 31, 2015)

BikeIntelligencer said:


> After rocking all summer with no crashes, I too have washed out twice in the past 10 days. I was truly pissed as it was on trails I ride constantly, and I wasn't doing anything different except maybe going a bit faster because conditions are dry, etc. But here's the deal: Too dry. The dust has formed a super slick layer on stuff, esp. rocky and loose, that just plain doesn't hold at speed the way it did previous times I rode it. So it's as simple as that. When (hopefully) the rains come and trails tack up, no more washouts. It's not the bike, not the rider. It's the conditions! (Santa Cruz)


I keep looking at the 10 day forecast. when will we get some rain in the Bay? I need those trails Primed....And those trails Green.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Lololololol. No. He still has a bunch of weight on the front wheel. Most washouts occur because too much weight is inside of the bike rather than above it. Taking weight off the front wheel on a flat, loose corner will result in either plowing through the corner or washing out. You reference Fabian a lot, incorrectly, btw, but you still appear to have no actual riding experience.


in the beginning of the turn, not when the cornering load is the highest and when washouts occur.

If you think him being up over the stem while initiating the turn is "weighting the front tire into the turn" while ignoring that he's moving his weight back as he goes through the turn, you obviously aren't listening and watching what he's doing. Every other instructional video will say the exact same thing. Which is probably why there's no instructional videos coming from you and the rest of the jokers showing how important countersteering and weighting the front of the bike (while actually in the meat of the corner) is.

Lean the bike, not countersteer, nobody mentions countersteering because it's a gross and slow way to lean the bike over. Just push the bike over into the turn. Move your weight back as you go through the turn. It's in every damn video you can find.

Like I said, I started racing this year and was winning Cat 2 races right off the bat. How about you? Where's your "actual riding experience?" Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

boomslang64 said:


> There must be some confusion of terms going on in this thread. Are you saying you push the bars in the direction of the turn to initiate lean? That's physically impossible. Pushing the bars in one direction will always cause you to lean toward the other.


If you actually watched the video I was showing as proof instead of blindly commenting, you'd know exactly what I was saying. There's more than one direction to push, you know.





 Go to 4:40 and notice how there's no flicking of the bars in the opposite direction to start a turn.


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## grumpy old biker (Jul 29, 2014)

BikeIntelligencer said:


> That's why there were so many crashes at Red Bull Rampage this year. Guys like Paul Bas and Bearclaw and Sam Reynolds, they couldn't read the conditions. If you can't read the wind you might as well pack it in and go home.


No, you get up and try again, until you get better and then go for the win.

Each of those guys did learn lot more that day than they have been learning many other days combined and I'm sure they became better.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

The more the bike is leaned over the larger amount of counter steer is required...

Note properly defined counter steer is the reduction in the steering angle required to balance the bike in a given turn (turning radius)...

It does not require the bars to be "turned in the wrong way".

More leaning results in more counter steer which result in less propensity to skid out the front tire.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

richde said:


> Go to 4:40 and notice how there's no flicking of the bars in the opposite direction to start a turn.


There is 100% counter steering in every single corner shot in that video. If you don't see it you don't actually know what counter steering is.

Watch him enter the switchback. He turns hard to the left and the dives into the right turn.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

LMN said:


> There is 100% counter steering in every single corner shot in that video. If you don't see it you don't actually know what counter steering is.
> 
> Watch him enter the switchback. He turns hard to the left and the dives into the right turn.


No, he's not. You're looking at him steering through a left turn and then going right, thinking that he's countersteering. In every scene where he's going straight before turning, there is no countersteering. That's why I emphasized the part at 4:40. He pushes the bar down and then turns into the turn...straightens out...pushes the bars, turn in...etc.

You can see the principle in action if you do a track stand, drop the outside pedal and push the inside bar down. Boom, you're leaned over and didn't weave all over in order to do it. Which is besides the point that if you countersteered and then leaned away from the turn, you'd end up riding almost in a straight line. Leaning away from the countersteering motion lessens how effective the motion is. The bike is leaned over, and he isn't, because he leaned the bike over by pushing the bars down into the turn.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

jeffscott said:


> The more the bike is leaned over the larger amount of counter steer is required...
> 
> Note properly defined counter steer is the reduction in the steering angle required to balance the bike in a given turn (turning radius)...
> 
> ...


Countersteering is turning the bars in the opposite direction. That's the "counter" part of the steering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

"Countersteering is used by single-track vehicle operators, such as cyclists and motorcyclists, to initiate a turn toward a given direction by momentarily steering counter to the desired direction ("steer left to turn right")"

Learn the terms you're using.

More help:


> How it works
> 
> When countersteering to turn left, the following is performed:
> 
> ...


Or you can just lean the bike because the rider weighs 5 or more times as much as the bike, instead of being outweighed by the bike (and fighting against the mass of the rotating wheels) as in the case of a motorcycle.


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## boomslang64 (Feb 18, 2015)

richde said:


> If you actually watched the video I was showing as proof instead of blindly commenting, you'd know exactly what I was saying. There's more than one direction to push, you know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's countersteering to initiate the turn.


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## BmoreKen (Sep 27, 2004)

For trucks sake, this will answer it..... Lock your bars in place (overtighten stem cap), then go outside and ride your huffy around the block. Don't forget to record it and post it here. I want to see how well that "leaning without countersteering" bit is working out for ya.


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## wjphillips (Oct 13, 2008)

There is definitely counter steering going on in that video. It's a little hard to see though, because the rider is so good at it. He makes it very subtle.

However, at the very beginning of the video, he corners around a big berm skidding the rear wheel as he's going around. You'll notice in that turn he is definitely counter steering. It's quite noticeable.

I can see it, and I watch people do it all the time. I'm just not very good at it. But I'm getting better all the time. Keep practicing...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

wjphillips said:


> There is definitely counter steering going on in that video. It's a little hard to see though, because the rider is so good at it. He makes it very subtle.
> 
> However, at the very beginning of the video, he corners around a big berm skidding the rear wheel as he's going around. You'll notice in that turn he is definitely counter steering. It's quite noticeable.
> 
> I can see it, and I watch people do it all the time. I'm just not very good at it. But I'm getting better all the time. Keep practicing...


That's how berms are naturally created.

We used to ride MX around and around and before long there's a berm or two or three. They get bigger with each pass.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Copying the technique of a rider locking up his back tire is not the best way through a turn. I'm in no way knocking Fabian Barel, it's just not good practice.


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## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

All these suggestions are well and good, but one of the simplest and most overlooked problems in bike setup is tire pressure. 
I weigh 220lbs, but run a max of 40psi rear and 32 - 35 front. 
The reason is that 70% of total weigh is on the rear axle on most bikes. 
Also larger tires need slightly less air in them. 

A tire with good edging knobs like the Maxxis Minion helps too.

It's kinda old school, but some bikes still prefer staggered tire sizes. IE a 2.3 on the back and a 2.5 on the front as an example. 
the staggered tires can be tricky, as the physical size can be different even though one is supposed to be bigger on the sidewall info. 
For that reason, use the metric not the U.S. sizing when comparing tire sizes.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

You need a longer stem.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

richde said:


> Countersteering is turning the bars in the opposite direction. That's the "counter" part of the steering.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
> 
> ...


A Wiki PHD over simplified.


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

*Clearly not Counter Steering*

Pro rider railing a berm faster than 99% of us ever will. Note position of handlebars. As I recall from many years on a street motorcycle: Steering at low speeds and then Counter Steering at higher speeds.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

A picture tells nothing. He's almost completely through the corner. What did he do on entry to the corner? He counter steered.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Counter steering is initiating a turn, not finishing a turn. So as Shawn mentioned, that photo is not applicable to this discussion.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

LaXCarp said:


> Counter steering is initiating a turn, not finishing a turn. So as Shawn mentioned, that photo is not applicable to this discussion.


To extend that counter steering is use to increase lean angle. At the end of a turn when you are decreasing the lean angle you shouldn't be counter steering.


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

*Increase lean angle = shorten radius of turn*

I agree with that part.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

*Just because it is an awesome video*

Take what you like about cornering from this video. The riding is artwork.

And Riche these are the "nice open trails" that I ride.


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## grumpy old biker (Jul 29, 2014)

Flucod said:


> Maybe not, but it is fun! Power slid a corner this morning and 25mph and grinned the whole time! (Was my own trail, don't get excited you trail Nazi's)


AFAIK, Power sliding is when you apply power to driven wheel to cause a slide, so you did pedal so hard that rear tire were sliding because of pedaling at 25mph trough whole corner?

If you used brake, that is sliding and of course it is fun, just not power sliding, imo.

If you would of been skating, I would guess then power sliding would be possible without applying power to driven wheel.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

So, what's it called when you slide the rear end around without using the brake? I think that's what he's talking about.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> So, what's it called when you slide the rear end around without using the brake? I think that's what he's talking about.


Without brake, AND without applying power?

"En route to high-siding"?

I'm having a hard time figuring out how this would happen, unless your rear wheel hits a slick spot that your front wheel missed.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

It happens a lot, and I love it! A few things seem to contribute; light saddle (close to standing so weight is on pedals) slightly worn tire, but high cornering speed is the most important. I've noticed it in loamy soil, and hard pack. When the rear slips out it does slow you down a bit, but it feels way cool. The best is a two-wheel slide where you lean the bike over for a turn, and both tires slide a bit. Yes it can be called a near low-side, but with decent tires and good reactions you can ride it till you hook-up again. I love railing berms, but as the trail gods have added more of them I find I miss those two wheel drifts!


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

This video LMN posted above is IT. Barelli is so smooth. That is inspiration!


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> So, what's it called when you slide the rear end around without using the brake? I think that's what he's talking about.


I would call that a rear wheel drift.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> So, what's it called when you slide the rear end around without using the brake? I think that's what he's talking about.





mountainbiker24 said:


> I would call that a rear wheel drift.


Correct ^^

Who knew that 5 pages back this simple front end wash out would create such an onslaught of technicle beliefs on how it happens and how it can be avoided.

News Flash this just in: Correct tire with correct psi for the dirt you're riding and you should be good. All the other crap comes with riding experience. Stop over thinking it.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Without brake, AND without applying power?
> 
> "En route to high-siding"?
> 
> I'm having a hard time figuring out how this would happen, unless your rear wheel hits a slick spot that your front wheel missed.


You can start the slide with a quick counter steer and steering the other way to kick the rear end out and letting it slide.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

kicking out indeed
If you watched that vid did you see when he kicked-up some dirt? Around 1:40 I think


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> "En route to high-siding"?
> I'm having a hard time figuring out how this would happen, unless your rear wheel hits a slick spot that your front wheel missed.


Most likely a rear wheel drift, with a bit of oppo on the front that still isn't maintaining constant traction. It's actually pretty easy to do on loose ball-bearing-like decomposed granite over concrete-like hardpack. Requires some inside foot most of the time, but I've done the exact same thing and it's super enjoyable because it's riding a dull knife edge between washing and hitting the deck, or high-siding and flying over into a crash. 
Totally exhilarating to do it without having to dab inside foot at speed. It scrubs speed, which can be a good thing, but it's entirely possible to actually get the whole bike 'freed up' to use NASCAR parlance and have some decent slip angle with the front and rear contact patch, and be able to reel it back in at the far side of a turn. 
The few times I've actually done it right (no brakes, etc.), I'm using lateral pedal force to keep the back end out (initiate the drift by overwhelming static friction on the back), then all it takes is a really faint dab of rear brakes while bringing your weight back over the bike and it hooks up.

It requires some really loose conditions, or really crappy tires (I've also tried combinations of both - mixed results, but always fun).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Two wheel drift FTW! All sorts of fun.

Gonna be doing it through every single corner tonite thanks to late fall leaf conditions.
Might even keep it together a couple times.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Without brake, AND without applying power?
> 
> "En route to high-siding"?
> 
> I'm having a hard time figuring out how this would happen, unless your rear wheel hits a slick spot that your front wheel missed.


Very aggressive counter steer to enter the turn, combined with a lot of weight over the front wheel. Ideally you use it to set the initial turn and then move your weight back a bit to stabilize the rear wheel as the turn progresses.

When you see it done well, it is impressive and ridiculously fast.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Countersteering is making an action and waiting for the reaction. You're turning away, placing you and the bike off balance, and allowing the bike to fall into the turn. I don't care what you guys think you know, you're not going to find a definition that's any different from that. Which is why none have been posted.

Pushing the bike over into the turn is simply a quicker and more direct action.



boomslang64 said:


> He's countersteering to initiate the turn.


To make it super clear, go to the sequence starting at 4:10: Watch youtube in slow motion

His bars are pointed straight, on the left side of the trail to enter the turn as wide as possible, then he pushes the bike down into the switchback. Countersteering at that speed would take a pretty aggressive, hard to miss, motion towards the hillside to his left.



BmoreKen said:


> For trucks sake, this will answer it..... Lock your bars in place (overtighten stem cap), then go outside and ride your huffy around the block. Don't forget to record it and post it here. I want to see how well that "leaning without countersteering" bit is working out for ya.


That is literally the silliest thing said in this thread.

If you can't get the bike leaned over without turning the bike, I wonder how people can do it doing a track stand.

I wonder how people ride no-handed, with no ability to countersteer...do you know? How can I shift my weight to push the bike over and have it lean into a turn without touching the bars? The Gods must be crazy!

Here's someone doing it on an actual motorcycle:





THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING!



Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> A picture tells nothing. He's almost completely through the corner. What did he do on entry to the corner? He counter steered.


Cool story, bro...got any evidence of that?



LMN said:


> To extend that counter steering is use to increase lean angle. At the end of a turn when you are decreasing the lean angle you shouldn't be counter steering.


When you change lean angle like that, you're simply turning more or less, just like steering to keep the bike underneath your CG when riding. If you turned your bars past the centerline (actually steering counter to the direction you're turning...you know, countersteering) you'd end up on your side almost immediately. I'd rather just push the bike down further.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

richde said:


> When you change lean angle like that, you're simply turning more or less, just like steering to keep the bike underneath your CG when riding. If you turned your bars past the centerline (actually steering counter to the direction you're turning...you know, countersteering) you'd end up on your side almost immediately. I'd rather just push the bike down further.


You have a dozen people saying counter steering is a key component of riding. You have people who race at a much high level then you and are vastly more experienced then you saying it a key skill. Yet based on a single video (in which anybody else who watches clearly sees counter steering) you stand by your point.

Have you ever entertained the possibility that you are wrong on this one? If you are truly interested in becoming a better rider think it might be a possibility.

I actually went out and spent a session working on corning as you are describing it. I then did a session emphasizing counter steering. I had a lot more success when I focused on counter steering. I did give your description an honest attempt and the results were less then stellar.

I think you have some great posts BTW. This thread however, has not been your best.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Two wheel drift FTW! All sorts of fun.
> 
> Gonna be doing it through every single corner tonite thanks to late fall leaf conditions.
> Might even keep it together a couple times.


That is exactly what I need today.


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)




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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

LMN said:


> You have a dozen people saying counter steering is a key component of riding. You have people who race at a much high level then you and are vastly more experienced then you saying it a key skill. Yet based on a single video (in which anybody else who watches clearly sees counter steering) you stand by your point.
> 
> Have you ever entertained the possibility that you are wrong on this one? If you are truly interested in becoming a better rider think it might be a possibility.
> 
> ...


Like everything else, it's a process.

I have also been riding quite a bit, around 10 hours on a MTB in the last 7 days, and I find just pushing the bike over to be quicker and easier to control. I made a consious effort to countersteer a couple times and it just felt awkward to make a motion, and then wait for the reaction instead of just going straight for the lean by pushing the bar down to the inside of the turn. This is especially true when the pace picks up and the turns are closer together, transitioning from turn to turn is just one motion of putting the opposite pedal down and moving the bike to the other side the same way it would happen naturally if you were doing a track stand and changed your pedal position in the same way.

There may be some unconscious effort to countersteer going on, but anyone who can halfway ride a bike doesn't need to even think about it, certainly not enough thought as to think "I need to countersteer." That said, it's the physical moving of the bike to the intended lean angle where the real difference comes in.

Here you can see the rider starting to lean the bike while still in the air at just after 1:00:
2015 Sea Otter Dual Slalom Highlight Video - BIKE Magazine

Riding without your hands on the bars makes it readily obvious that it IS possible, so anyone who suggests that it ISN'T possible is simply mistaken. I even included the link that slows down the video, and pointed to the point where Barel was not only riding slow enough that it would have required a dramatic countersteering motion to unbalance the bike (because that's what countersteering does), but was also riding too close to the edge of the trail to make that motion away from the intended direction of the turn.

It does feel weird to be more physical with the bike in this way, but it just plain works as the turns come at you faster and closer together. In the same way that forcing the bike up or down, backwards or forward, in the direction of travel feels unfamiliar at first. When we start riding bikes, we don't have the same weight advantage over our bikes and tend, like motorcyclists, to "suggest" the bike do something, and allow gravity and physics to do the hard work. That's what countersteering is, making a small motion that causes bike/motorcycle to do something that you/it can't/won't do. You can _try_ to muscle a street motorcycle around from side to side, but it just has too much mass and gyroscopic force in the wheels, so it's not really going to care what you do, it wants to go straight and is bigger and stronger than you. As a full grown male, I weigh six times as much as my bike, I don't have to suggest anything, I just put it where I want it. At first it takes faith, then it takes confidence, then it becomes natural.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> Very aggressive counter steer to enter the turn, combined with a lot of weight over the front wheel. Ideally you use it to set the initial turn and then move your weight back a bit to stabilize the rear wheel as the turn progresses.
> 
> When you see it done well, it is impressive and ridiculously fast.


Not sure if you remember this, but Julien Absalon did this, or a simple nose-wheelie pivot, at Albstadt the last couple of years. That tight downhill switchback with the wooden barriers on the right.


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## BmoreKen (Sep 27, 2004)

richde said:


> "Lock your bars in place (overtighten stem cap), then go outside and ride your huffy around the block. "
> 
> That is literally the silliest thing said in this thread.


Then you completely missed the point. You need to countersteer to lean. If your bars are fixed then you can't countersteer. Go try it.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

BmoreKen said:


> You need to countersteer to lean.


What about the dumb asses around here who say that you don't have to countersteer to corner? Un****ing believable!


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

The conversation between richde and LMN is interesting. As a rider who has learned to go through S-turns faster than I did before; I did this by using the outside arm to push the bar over in front of me (lean the bike). Counter steering (to me) means pushing the inside grip forward, I don't do that. I've been agreeing w/ richde in that you don't want to do that. 
Push the bar over toward the inside of the turn, bring it across in front of your chest, say it either way but you're not pushing the outside grip forward, just using it to lean the bike over by bringing it across your chest. If you do that the bike leans, you stay upright, and the corner is railed.


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## Acme54321 (Oct 8, 2003)

I can't believe this thread is still going.... make it end, for the love of God, make it end.


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

*Definitions*

Turning left, push left hand forwards = *counter steering*
How you turn a motor cycle at speed
Turning left, pull left hand back = *steering*.
How you turn a bicycle at mountain bike speed
Our problem here is understanding definitions

Counter steering is also used in old school high speed skiing turns
Body is twisted away from the direction of the turn.
see pic.
http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1026782&d=1446760893&thumb=1&stc=1


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## boomslang64 (Feb 18, 2015)

jim c said:


> The conversation between richde and LMN is interesting. As a rider who has learned to go through S-turns faster than I did before; I did this by using the outside arm to push the bar over in front of me (lean the bike). Counter steering (to me) means pushing the outside grip forward, I don't do that. I've been agreeing w/ richde in that you don't want to do that.
> Push the bar over toward the inside of the turn, bring it across in front of your chest, say it either way but you're not pushing the outside grip forward, just using it to lean the bike over by bringing it across your chest. If you do that the bike leans, you stay upright, and the corner is railed.


Pushing the outside grip forward is just turning.

Countersteering: You're trying to turn left. You, subtly, turn the bars right. The bike falls left. As you fall into the turn, the bars reverse direction and rotate left as the front wheel tracks through the turn.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

boomslang64 said:


> Pushing the outside grip forward is just turning.
> 
> Countersteering: You're trying to turn left. You, subtly, turn the bars right. The bike falls left. As you fall into the turn, the bars reverse direction and rotate left as the front wheel tracks through the turn.


Well written.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Not sure if you remember this, but Julien Absalon did this, or a simple nose-wheelie pivot, at Albstadt the last couple of years. That tight downhill switchback with the wooden barriers on the right.


I know what you are talking about and it is not quite the same. Nose wheelie turns are sweet and have be come oh so cool. But they are a different skill set.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

On my stock tires my rear would slide at high speed just from the cornering forces. No pedaling, no brake, no sticks or rocks to initiate a slide. That was fun and I'm totally fine with over steering. My car will break the tires free at 100mph and I'm used to over steer or powersliding and it's surprising at how much car control translates to bike control, specifically oversteer. I never thought what I learned from racing cars my whole life would translate even a little to bikes. Anyway..... What I don't like is under steer where the front wants to continue going in a straight line and eventually washes out.

On my replacement tires I did a Hans Dampf in the rear but instead of a Hans Dampf in the front like most do, I went with a Magic Mary. With this setup the front always has more grip than the rear unless I do something really dumb. This setup is very forgiving. Pressures are 28F, 34R and I'm 240lbs before gear. 

The thing most don't want to accept in the car world or the bike world is tires make more difference in steady state lateral acceleration, grip, than every other factor. You can take a Corolla, throw some R compounds or slicks on it and it's going to have better steady state cornering than a stock Lamborghini, Ferrari, etc. The dynamics that make a bike quicker around an actual track (transitions, smoothness, weight distribution) come from geometry and the rider. But tires have more influence than most like to admit. I prefer a setup that's balanced but has a tendency when pushed to the limit to oversteer in most conditions which is why I run a MM front and HD rear vs a HD on both ends.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

I told myself I wouldn't reply to this thread again but here I am....



richde said:


> When we start riding bikes, we don't have the same weight advantage over our bikes and tend, like motorcyclists, to "suggest" the bike do something, and allow gravity and physics to do the hard work. That's what countersteering is, making a small motion that causes bike/motorcycle to do something that you/it can't/won't do. You can _try_ to muscle a street motorcycle around from side to side, but it just has too much mass and gyroscopic force in the wheels, so it's not really going to care what you do, it wants to go straight and is bigger and stronger than you. As a full grown male, I weigh six times as much as my bike, I don't have to suggest anything, I just put it where I want it. At first it takes faith, then it takes confidence, then it becomes natural.


You're missing a very big chunk of what it takes to allow any single track vehicle to turn. While riding a bike or motorcycle your weight makes up part of the mass of the moving vehicle. In order to turn (not just lean the bike frame) this mass needs to literally be falling in the direction of the turn. This falling caused by gravity pulling you to the ground while you have forward velocity is what allows the bike to turn. Otherwise how could you possibly create cornering G's which push you in the other direction? WITHOUT FIRST setting this mass into a state of falling in the desired direction (counter-steer input), it is otherwise physically impossible to make the bike turn. If you simply lean the bike right or left, this does NOT change the inertia of your body. You would simply push the bike right which will push you slightly left (Newton's third law of motion) and you will end up going straight.

The thing that keeps you and the vehicle from falling to the ground after you set this turn in motion is an equilibrium of gravity pulling you down and cornering g-forces pushing you back up in the opposite direction. If you increase the cornering forces (turn in) this dirsrupts the equilibrium and the bike will stand up right, if you decrease the cornering forces (turn away from the direction of travel) the bike will fall further; each of which are counter-steer inputs. The ONLY way to change the inertia of your body/bike's mass is through a counter-steering input. Even if you aren't touching the handlebars, the design of the bike makes a counter-steer input for you by reacting to your movements.

Also for the record, a counter-steer input is not a "suggestion." The bike has no choice but to obey it assuming traction is available. Simply pushing on the frame or moving your body weight is a suggestion that can make suddle or no difference. I guarentee if you can pay slightly more attention to how you steer, you can cut your transition times between corners in half. You might already be doing it without realizing it as well.

With all of that being said I fully agree you shouldn't need to think about counter-steering. Just like running; you don't need to think "lift leg, place foot, push forward" with each step. For someone to turn its best to have one single thing to think about which lets you perform the task. For turning simply thinking "lean in" works for a lot of people however, it doesn't work for everyone. Some people focus more about a push or pull on the handlebars.

Sorry this had nothing to do with the OP's question! Hope it was worth it.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I need to take an energy gel and 4 Motrin just to read through this nightmare of a thread.


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