# Could you beat Sagan on a ebike?



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

The older lady smoked him on the Turbo Vado! I own the Turbo S, the model before they went soft looking. 750w . I still think he’d smoke me in a drag race, but climbing I’d own him.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It'd be interesting, especially at what distances. When I was road riding in the french alps, we were riding some classic TDF stages and were wondering just how much faster the top pros were. The hotel owner overheard and told us about some grand fondo where amateurs ride the same TDF stage, the day after they go through. Of course, there are top amateur riders, some ex lower level pros who ride it as a race. You always hear the TDF commentators droning on about how tough the mtn stages are for the sprinters and how they barely make the time cut. Turns out the winners of the grand fondos are like 45 BEHIND the "slow" sprinters, so I'm not sure I could beat Sagan on anything with pedals, even if I had an electric motor, especially over a 120 mile stage with @15k worth of climbing.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

They are animals. I’m jealous, I’d love to not only ride the alps but just to see them. I’ve watched the tour since 91? Love it, love the scenery and all the different facts. Big George and Christian live here. I would not want to do that for a living. Rugged.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

There’s a few guys in the other thread that I believe could smoke Sagan on a Mtb! (Sarcasm)


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

That could prove a difficult task for real world race route. If route is longer than battery range, you are toast. Route allows for speeds higher than ebike cruising speed and you'd be screwed. For technical trails, you'd be beaten on bike handling skills alone. Best case would be a route that only goes up at 15-20% (Kilimanjaro?) with support vehicles following to swap out your battery, but even then you might get into issues with the motor overheating. Personally I'd probably have better odds on a standard track bike, standing start 500m.

Great commercial though.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

On basically any climb that isn't too technical and lasts less than, say 30 minutes, any random slob on an ebike beats a fit motivated pro. We all knew that already, Specialized marketing or no. 

In a sprint, the limiter would kill you, of course (plus peak power for a good sprinter is well north of the ~1000W you could get out of yourself+motor). And flat or descending, same story. 

Delimit the bike and you'd win everywhere with ease.

-Walt


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Walt said:


> On basically any climb that isn't too technical and lasts less than, say 30 minutes, any random slob on an ebike beats a fit motivated pro. We all knew that already, Specialized marketing or no.
> 
> In a sprint, the limiter would kill you, of course (plus peak power for a good sprinter is well north of the ~1000W you could get out of yourself+motor). And flat or descending, same story.
> 
> ...


Would I be racing a random pro slob?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Gutch said:


> Would I be racing a random pro slob?


What a dumb question. Hey I could beat him in a car. I could beat him on a motorcycle and that's even giving him a head start. I could probably beat him in an old volkswagen.

Once you start adding motors it is no longer a bicycle and comparisons are not valid.

Definition: A bicycle, also called a cycle or bike, is a *human-powered*, pedal-driven, single-track vehicle, having two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other. A bicycle rider is called a cyclist, or bicyclist.

You my friend are on a motorcycle and you are not a cyclist.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I’m not your friend. Far from it. Go eat some tofu coach.


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

Walt said:


> On basically any climb that isn't too technical and lasts less than, say 30 minutes, any random slob on an ebike beats a fit motivated pro. We all knew that already, Specialized marketing or no.
> 
> In a sprint, the limiter would kill you, of course (plus peak power for a good sprinter is well north of the ~1000W you could get out of yourself+motor). And flat or descending, same story.
> 
> ...


The turbo has a 350 watt motor. We know something about riders like Sagan and Boonen. Boonen could do an astounding 600 watts for over an hour at a time. Only data I can find on Sagan is sprint at 1,220 watts for 18 seconds, hitting a five-second peak power of 1,417 watts and a top speed of 76kmh. Even on a short hill climb, which is a contrived format that doesn't exist in the real world, that is a huge power deficit to overcome for a typical cyclist in any race format, let alone a 70 year old with 2 joint replacements and a pace maker. So I'm a skeptic, the numbers simply don't add up. You would have to work hard to find a hill steep enough with a rider light enough for that to bear out.

Rode one of those not long ago. It is fun and surprisingly bike like, but it really doesn't seem to help all that much at full throttle (the human that is). At the current pace of development, in 3-4 years they should have twice the power and a range in hours instead of minutes. That would be game over for any human.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Absolutely not. Unless I can do a little "bump and run", kinda like this:


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)




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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Gutch said:


> I'm not your friend. Far from it. Go eat some tofu coach.


Your insults don't make richwolf wrong. It was a dumb, pointless question. Ebikes are bikes though, of a type not permitted on nonmoto trails in my area. Why? Da motor. Doh!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

sapva said:


> Boonen could do an astounding 600 watts for over an hour at a time.


I think the highest power anyone has recorded for an hour is about 450 watts during Bradly Wiggins hour record attempt.

As far as the race goes it depends on how many watts and batteries you have, also how much climbing there is. On a climb probably anyone on a standard (750w) would leave him in the dust until their batteries ran dry.


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

veloborealis said:


> Your insults don't make richwolf wrong. It was a dumb, pointless question. Ebikes are bikes though, of a type not permitted on nonmoto trails in my area. Why? Da motor. Doh!


Ebikes are not bikes just to clarify. The are electric cycles, if you think they are the same then a motor cycles is also just a type of bike.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

veloborealis said:


> Your insults don't make richwolf wrong. It was a dumb, pointless question. Ebikes are bikes though, of a type not permitted on nonmoto trails in my area. Why? Da motor. Doh!


Hate to live in your area. Rich wolf believes fat people are not human beings, that's not an insult?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Funny thing, I was just on Thumpertalk -a motorcycle forum and not much ebike talk. I come on mtbr.com and viola, an ebike forum. Went to the local bike shop and viola there was ebikes. Stopped at the Kawasaki dealership and there was no ebikes. Why is this?


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Gutch said:


> Hate to live in your area. Rich wolf believes fat people are not human beings, that's not an insult?


He never said that, quit with the hyperbole, again.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

sfgiantsfan said:


> He never said that, quit with the hyperbole, again.


He didn't have to, it's written all over. Good to see your back though! Missed you. Get smoked by any emtbs lately?


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

LargeMan said:


> Ebikes are not bikes just to clarify. The are electric cycles, if you think they are the same then a motor cycles is also just a type of bike.


"Type" means the same, in general, but different in a significant way. The important point is that ebikes are banned on trails designated non-motorized by federal land managers. I hope it stays that way.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Gutch said:


> Funny thing, I was just on Thumpertalk -a motorcycle forum and not much ebike talk. I come on mtbr.com and viola, an ebike forum. Went to the local bike shop and viola there was ebikes. Stopped at the Kawasaki dealership and there was no ebikes. Why is this?


For many, many reasons. You and I both know what they are. Your observation, however, doesn't prove what you think it does. Nor much of anything really.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Listen, I’m not an ebike expert either. I just enjoy them. I don’t produce or sell them. Should ebikers be insulted because we LEGALLY enjoy them? Blame the industry, if you don’t like them, but don’t bust our balls for being a happy consumer. Fair enough?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Read that as Sagan riding an ebike, then instantly thought of all the rough DH stuff, that have mandatory tech that proves troublesome on an ebike, that I could possibly beat him on.

Could an ebiker beat Sagan? Sure, on a steep sustained climb where the average speed is under the motor's cut-off, at a distance within the battery's range, and within the rider's technical expertise. That's if you put Sagan's ability a bit under what a top TdF climber could sustain, say 350W over 1h...









Based on this graph, it seems that some motors can rival that power alone (peak output), with maybe 40 extra lbs and some losses to drag and other inefficiencies to deal with. Would be interesting to see how heat plays a role, as motors can't hold peak due to overheating, though I expect an average person to be able to hold the lead by putting out another ~125W on top of the 250W sustained/continuous power the motor is rated for.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

ninjichor said:


> Would be interesting to see how heat plays a role, as motors can't hold peak due to overheating


Interestingly enough that's probably, don't know for sure because I don't design them, the reason that bikes are "hackable". Manufacturers aren't putting bigger motors in them because it's cheaper.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Gutch said:


> Hate to live in your area. Rich wolf believes fat people are not human beings, that's not an insult?


Actually you might like living here. There are many moto trails here and hundreds of miles of scenic back roads and fire roads where ebikes are perfectly legal. Plus many miles of nonmotorized singletrack for you to enjoy your "legacy" mtbs.

I don't know what richwolf thinks of fat people, but I've never seen him post anything close to the comment you made. On a personal note back in 2007, after a decade + of not riding bikes very much, I decided to start commuting by bike to save gas money, lose weight and gain some fitness. I debated getting an electric bike, but decided to get a "real" bike because it would be better for me and would help get me back into trail riding. It wasnt easy at the beginning, but it was the best decision I ever made.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Funny thing, I was just on Thumpertalk -a motorcycle forum and not much ebike talk.


So how much bicycle talk was there?



Gutch said:


> Went to the local bike shop and viola there was ebikes. Stopped at the Kawasaki dealership and there was no ebikes. Why is this?


'cause marketing. Hard to sell "yeah, it's a really, really weak motor bike. Wanna buy one?" to someone that walked into a Kawasaki dealer. And as you are well aware, the whole strategy for marketing ebikes is to avoid licensing and insurance and gaining access to non-motorized areas by getting them to be considered as electric "bicycles". And "emoped" was dead on arrival, probably because of that one joke but I bet they considered it. And before anyone feels the need to post, yes, I am well aware that the '80s moped is much different than the ebike of today.


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think the highest power anyone has recorded for an hour is about 450 watts during Bradly Wiggins hour record attempt.


Most any track sprinter can put out 400+ watts, even for an hour. I imagine some of the bigger world tour riders can do over 450. I can beat 450, but I'm not winning any races against anyone at over 500m. Don't know how that works out for watts per kilo, but obviously Wiggo was a stick pole compared to Boonen so it is apples to oranges. The 450w figure is quite impressive for someone of Wiggin's body weight. And the magic of his hour record has less to do with watts and more to do with his flawless technique. But that is where the ebike falls short since there is a hard limit to the watts it can produce regardless of rider weight. So I'm still skeptical. If Mythbusters was still on the air the world class rider vs turbo would surely get a "busted".


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

sapva said:


> Most any track sprinter can put out 400+ watts, even for an hour. I imagine some of the bigger world tour riders can do over 450. I can beat 450, but I'm not winning any races against anyone at over 500m. Don't know how that works out for watts per kilo, but obviously Wiggo was a stick pole compared to Boonen so it is apples to oranges. The 450w figure is quite impressive for someone of Wiggin's body weight. And the magic of his hour record has less to do with watts and more to do with his flawless technique. But that is where the ebike falls short since there is a hard limit to the watts it can produce regardless of rider weight. So I'm still skeptical. If Mythbusters was still on the air the world class rider vs turbo would surely get a "busted".


Actually, when Wiggins set the hour record he was heavier than Boonen's typical racing weight.

He gained a lot of weight between 2012/13 and his hour record attempt. Like 30+ pounds.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

veloborealis said:


> Actually you might like living here. There are many moto trails here and hundreds of miles of scenic back roads and fire roads where ebikes are perfectly legal. Plus many miles of nonmotorized singletrack for you to enjoy your "legacy" mtbs.
> 
> I don't know what richwolf thinks of fat people, but I've never seen him post anything close to the comment you made. On a personal note back in 2007, after a decade + of not riding bikes very much, I decided to start commuting by bike to save gas money, lose weight and gain some fitness. I debated getting an electric bike, but decided to get a "real" bike because it would be better for me and would help get me back into trail riding. It wasnt easy at the beginning, but it was the best decision I ever made.


Here's your buddies post from my other thread, go to the "ebikers getting people fit" thread and read more. I'm not fat, but I have some overweight friends and family that are good people. Here ya go, plenty more in the other thread...

I like how fat unmotivated people want everyone to respect them and to have unfettered access to everything. Well it don't work that way, you earn respect and access. If you can't control your pie hole then seek help.

I get so upset looking around at fat people raising fat kids who can't get out the their own way to save their life.

Yes it is a broken record but perhaps one that needs to be replayed.

I would rather have a hard ass be responsible for my kids welfare than some namby pamby who gives into their every desire.

Then they get all these obese and lifestyle related diseases and want everyone to do whatever it takes to save their lives regardless of the cost.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

sapva said:


>


Entertaining video. Undoubtedly would've won if he had a 20mph/40kph limiter instead of 15.5mph/25kph. xD

Video above yours was interesting how the car lifted off due to the spoiler, when the car was spun around 180 degrees. (



)

[HR][/HR]
Regarding the off-topic thing, it strikes me as control-hungry people being worried about ebikes replacing regular bikes. They welcome it replacing cars and sedentary lifestyles, but they want people to do it like how they did it, the hard way on a normal bike. They can't control sheeple who follow a trend of more ebikes popping up and crowding trails, but can spread "propaganda" against it. Reminds me of the guys predicting Tesla's doom, bad-mouthing it, while it marches on stealing customers from other auto brands.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Gutch said:


> He didn't have to, it's written all over. Good to see your back though! Missed you. Get smoked by any emtbs lately?


I don't care if an ebike blows by me any more than I care when a car blows by me. I can't hang with motor vehicles


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> Actually, when Wiggins set the hour record he was heavier than Boonen's typical racing weight.
> 
> He gained a lot of weight between 2012/13 and his hour record attempt. Like 30+ pounds.


Yes, I remember hearing him say that and I laughed then. Just look at him, looks like he is 8 feet tall. Maybe he got his lbs/kgs/stone conversion wrong, or maybe it was just bs.


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

Gutch said:


> Listen, I'm not an ebike expert either. I just enjoy them. I don't produce or sell them. Should ebikers be insulted because we LEGALLY enjoy them? Blame the industry, if you don't like them, but don't bust our balls for being a happy consumer. Fair enough?


No, not at all. I don't care about them and are completely fine sharing the trail with them. THE PROBLEM IS you consider it just another bicycle, which IT IS NOT and you ARE NOT mountain biking. It is another sport and recreation altogether. Mountain biking is 100% human power only.

FYI - Yamaha sells ebikes next to their Moto's now with Honda, Kawasaki close behind. Also HD has one now and sells it right next to their Moto.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

sapva said:


> Most any track sprinter can put out 400+ watts, even for an hour.


I highly doubt that, at any rate there's no way Boonen could have ever produced 600 watts for an hour. I posted a vid awhile back where an olympic track sprinter struggled to do 700 watts for 1 minute.

You can beat 450?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

LargeMan said:


> No, not at all. I don't care about them and are completely fine sharing the trail with them. THE PROBLEM IS you consider it just another bicycle, which IT IS NOT and you ARE NOT mountain biking. It is another sport and recreation altogether. Mountain biking is 100% human power only.
> 
> FYI - Yamaha sells ebikes next to their Moto's now with Honda, Kawasaki close behind. Also HD has one now and sells it right next to their Moto.


If you've followed the ebike forum, you'd know differently about my thoughts of lumping them with bicycles, but you don't. You jump right in and start assuming my thoughts on them. I'm surprised you haven't quoted ANOTHER dictionary definition. IVE ALWAYS STATED THEY HAVE MOTORS AND ARE DIFFERENT SINCE 2016. I'm glad the oems will be making them at there dealerships, now I'll have one stop shopping.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Interestingly enough that's probably, don't know for sure because I don't design them, the reason that bikes are "hackable". Manufacturers aren't putting bigger motors in them because it's cheaper.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Nope, most of the motors are far more powerful than their software allows them to be. From a manufacturers standpoint, that redundancy means less problems and unhappy consumers. It's interesting watching them trying to mitigate overheating within carbon frames, which just makes carbon seem like the dumbest choice for an emtb frome, but sexy plastic and low weight sells.....

Using a more powerful motor also allows you to take advantage of different markets with the same frame and motor combo, like the TQ120, which is speced on 250w etmbs and 920w emtbs.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

The biggest problem with e bikes is they tire out just as quickly if not quicker than any pro. Internal heat giving resistance within the motor and battery sag all conspire to drop the available power. Li ion batteries have a steep drop of when max amps are pulled from them. At max you are generally looking at a minute or two before your power drops off. It takes time to recover. You cannot back off for a minute or so and do it again. 

Oversizing and detuning e bike power systems can greatly reduce sag but adds a lot of weight in the wrong places for bike handling. 


An amateur playing around on a emtb feels like superman but try to push and you will quickly run into limitations. emtbs are not the answer for keeping up with the 1%ers. 

A fit younger rider is probably going to gravitate back to the light high end mtb and away from an emtb because of the limitations. I know that I damned sure would if I had my youth back. I would use the emtb for quick runs around short tracks. The acceleration of an e bike is a thrill but the handling and feel sucks a bit.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Harryman said:


> Nope, most of the motors are far more powerful than their software allows them to be. From a manufacturers standpoint, that redundancy means less problems and unhappy consumers.


That is literally what I just said...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

So with Sagan able to beat emtbrs on singletrack, should he be banned on singletrack for closing speeds? 😂


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

tuckerjt07 said:


> That is literally what I just said...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


And I was agreeing with you


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Harryman said:


> And I was agreeing with you


Is it opposite day?

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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

PierreR said:


> The biggest problem with e bikes is they tire out just as quickly if not quicker than any pro. Internal heat giving resistance within the motor and battery sag all conspire to drop the available power. Li ion batteries have a steep drop of when max amps are pulled from them. At max you are generally looking at a minute or two before your power drops off. It takes time to recover. You cannot back off for a minute or so and do it again.
> 
> Oversizing and detuning e bike power systems can greatly reduce sag but adds a lot of weight in the wrong places for bike handling.
> 
> ...


Bosch has figured out most of the power issues, and I've run mine in Turbo for several minutes at a time in 90F temps with no issues. It is not my style to go really fast up the steep rocky climbs we have, so Turbo rarely sees any use. In fact just about the only use of Turbo is on the bike path while commuting, where I have a one mile+ long 4-7% climb. 16-18 MPH on that stretch beats the snot out of 6-8 MPH.

Bosch also will not drain the battery to a dangerous level, when it goes into limp mode that battery still has 15% or so left. I assume the other high end systems have similar motor/battery management.

The handling and feel of my 46lb eMTBs is certainly not the same as my 32lb enduro bike, but it is far better than I expected. The extra weight really helps with traction in most conditions. Read some of the stories from pro enduro and DH riders who have railed ebikes from Trek, Commencal, Levo, Pivot, etc. and they all pretty much agree that while you lose a little flickability and loft in jumps, you gain quite a bit in traction and stability.

There have been some interesting direct comparisons:

https://ebike-mtb.com/en/emtb-vs-enduro/

https://dirtmountainbike.com/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-enduro-test/


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

Seems like the human always wins...


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

At least one person on this thread wants the ebike to win, here you go, this is funny...






So 1500 watts is close to where it becomes unfair.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

sapva said:


> Seems like the human always wins...


Always on that video. How abut this one? 




standard ebike on a downhill run


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Always on that video. How abut this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But Neil is a professional. So the real question is, can he beat his grandmother riding the ebike. Honestly, I think the fact that is was mostly downhill gives the ebike an advantage due to weight even with the motor switched off.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

sapva said:


> Honestly, I think the fact that is was mostly downhill gives the ebike an advantage due to weight even with the motor switched off.


That's an unusual opinion around here, most people seem to think it would be no contest, in favor of the bicycle.

Anyway I posted that one because I doubt there's much question about whether a 750w machine could beat someone riding a bike on an uphill run.


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