# Why not more simple suspension designs



## Kelly Parker (Mar 15, 2017)

I understand that some of the latest suspension designs gain a few hundreds of a sec for racers but for regular trail riders extreme or not, is it really needed to have fun riding a mountain bike? Example my 2003 ironhorse warrior pro single pivot (350 dollars with shock) is still kicking today with thousands of miles and still a few of my pr’s. It replaced my 2001 Ellsworth Truth that broke 3 times in 8 months of trail riding. I was very frustrated at Ellsworth bought this quick while waiting for replacement. I have changed the bearings 3 times in almost 19 years. My 2019 polygon N-9 every 800 miles for lower pivot and the rest of the bearings 1500 miles. I only have 4000 miles so far. It rides great but I’d like to have another ironhorse single pivot with updated geometry and big as bearings. Anyone else looking for a low maintenance bike that last that doesn’t cost as much as a car and have to be serviced like a Lamborghini. Just Ride.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Invest in higher quality bearings at first change?
Personally I like the performance of DW, CBF, etc. multi-link suspension designs.
I have a 2018 Horst Link bike that I changed the bearings on once... they didn't need changing, I just figured it was probably about time (the bike was 2 years old.) Didn't need to change the bearings then and still haven't needed to change them. I ride year 'round in Oregon's wet, muddy conditions. I think bearing quality matters.
=sParty


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## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

Marino, Orange, Ferrum, and probably some others are still pumping out single pivot bikes.


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## Kelly Parker (Mar 15, 2017)

Sparticus said:


> Invest in higher quality bearings at first change?
> Personally I like the performance of DW, CBF, etc. multi-link suspension designs.
> I also have a 2018 Horst Link bike that I changed the bearings once on... didn't need to, just figured it was probably time (the bike was 2 years old.) Still don't need to change them. I think bearing quality matters.
> =sParty


What other bearings than enduro? I’ve reached out about the more expensive bearings (75.00 bearings) on mtbr and no one had any input other than it’s life. They don’t last either. I have worked in industrial maintenance for 30 years and some of bearings last 20 years. Hell my 1986 KX250, I never replaced a single bearing in all the suspension parts 8000 miles easy and I bought it used for 1200. Just saying it doesn’t have to be this way.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Hardtail. That's your answer. Zero pivot maintenance.


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## Reaperactual (Apr 20, 2020)

Here's my hinge with a shock in the middle:-


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## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

I missed an orange on pinkbike and I kind of regret it. I had a heck of time getting my marino to ride how I wanted. I think my hefty self needed more than the basic manitou mcleod.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Kelly Parker said:


> What other bearings than enduro? I’ve reached out about the more expensive bearings (75.00 bearings) on mtbr and no one had any input other than it’s life. They don’t last either. I have worked in industrial maintenance for 30 years and some of bearings last 20 years. Hell my 1986 KX250, I never replaced a single bearing in all the suspension parts 8000 miles easy and I bought it used for 1200. Just saying it doesn’t have to be this way.


The issue IMO is not the quality of the bearings, but their exposure, location/placement, and the lack of secondary sealing. Brands that seal their bearings in some way other than the seal on the bearing itself (Santa Cruz, Specialized) last a lot longer than those where the face of the bearing is exposed and visible (Transition, Norco, most 4-link brands). My general assumption is that if i can look into the pivot and see the face of the bearing, it's not gonna last.


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## Bike Whisperer (Aug 7, 2012)

Diamondback still offers a decent single pivot in 27.5" tires, certainly on par with those old Iron Horse Warrior single pivot frames.
Atroz 3


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Kelly Parker said:


> I understand that some of the latest suspension designs gain a few hundreds of a sec for racers but for regular trail riders extreme or not, is it really needed to have fun riding a mountain bike? Example my 2003 ironhorse warrior pro single pivot (350 dollars with shock) is still kicking today with thousands of miles and still a few of my pr’s. It replaced my 2001 Ellsworth Truth that broke 3 times in 8 months of trail riding. I was very frustrated at Ellsworth bought this quick while waiting for replacement. I have changed the bearings 3 times in almost 19 years. My 2019 polygon N-9 every 800 miles for lower pivot and the rest of the bearings 1500 miles. I only have 4000 miles so far. It rides great but I’d like to have another ironhorse single pivot with updated geometry and big as bearings. Anyone else looking for a low maintenance bike that last that doesn’t cost as much as a car and have to be serviced like a Lamborghini. Just Ride.


I can get along with this. Back in the heyday I had a full suspension halo bike and it broke quickly and catastrophically. I was back on my hardtail. I spent a lot more time on my hardtail until I threw money at another full suspension bike. A nice 4 bar turner bike. I really liked how it rode but it was really short travel. I got a single pivot Santa Cruz with way more travel. I loved how that bike rode, especially at speed but the braking was just awful, especially compared to the 4 bar turner bike. 

Eventually I gave but on rear suspension and then even front suspension when the advent of 29er wheels became a thing. Still unsuspended but I am enthralled with trying a new fangled full suspension bike but in the back of my mind that single pivot appeals to me again. Maybe it is because brakes are better, or a Starling steel full suspension bike looks so pure, or just my retrogrouchness showing through, I dunno. 

I hear the desire to be maintenance free, or as much as possible.


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## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

rockcrusher said:


> I can get along with this. Back in the heyday I had a full suspension halo bike and it broke quickly and catastrophically. I was back on my hardtail. I spent a lot more time on my hardtail until I threw money at another full suspension bike. A nice 4 bar turner bike. I really liked how it rode but it was really short travel. I got a single pivot Santa Cruz with way more travel. I loved how that bike rode, especially at speed but the braking was just awful, especially compared to the 4 bar turner bike.
> 
> Eventually I gave but on rear suspension and then even front suspension when the advent of 29er wheels became a thing. Still unsuspended but I am enthralled with trying a new fangled full suspension bike but in the back of my mind that single pivot appeals to me again. Maybe it is because brakes are better, or a Starling steel full suspension bike looks so pure, or just my retrogrouchness showing through, I dunno.
> 
> I hear the desire to be maintenance free, or as much as possible.


Get an order in with Marino. Get a custom, steel, retro grouch approved single pivot.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Oogie said:


> Get an order in with Marino. Get a custom, steel, retro grouch approved single pivot.


I am a Jones rider, single speed is out since I moved to Washington, just don't have the legs to do it anymore.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

because early single pivots were terrible. they're better now that rear shocks are better, and 1x drivetrains simplify the design and implementation, but that reputation they built decades ago still hangs over them.

you simply can't make direct comparisons between bicycles and motorcycles, even though people try all the time. weight is an ENORMOUS driver of a lot of aspects of mtbs. durability and/or cost are sacrified as a result.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Kelly Parker said:


> I understand that some of the latest suspension designs gain a few hundreds of a sec for racers but for regular trail riders extreme or not, is it really needed to have fun riding a mountain bike? Example my 2003 ironhorse warrior pro single pivot (350 dollars with shock) is still kicking today with thousands of miles and still a few of my pr’s. It replaced my 2001 Ellsworth Truth that broke 3 times in 8 months of trail riding. I was very frustrated at Ellsworth bought this quick while waiting for replacement. I have changed the bearings 3 times in almost 19 years. My 2019 polygon N-9 every 800 miles for lower pivot and the rest of the bearings 1500 miles. I only have 4000 miles so far. It rides great but I’d like to have another ironhorse single pivot with updated geometry and big as bearings. Anyone else looking for a low maintenance bike that last that doesn’t cost as much as a car and have to be serviced like a Lamborghini. Just Ride.


Have you ridden modern suspensions? They do a better job of dealing with the compromise between active + efficient. I hopped on an old Santa Cruz superlight a couple years ago and couldn't believe how awful it felt after a couple years on my Hightower. And a bearing job on my Hightower (about every 2 years) now takes me about 45 minutes.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Harold said:


> because early single pivots were terrible. they're better now that rear shocks are better, and 1x drivetrains simplify the design and implementation, but that reputation they built decades ago still hangs over them.


I will concur with this. I had the SC bullit with the 5th Element rear shock and that shock was amazing over chunk at high speeds. The swing arm design with it rearward axle path and such was a real champ. Where it wasn't a champ was braking at any speed, bunny hopping, or just flat riding on trails. The creepy crawly aspect of the higher single pivot did kinda force the rear tire into the terra firma allowing pretty good grip while climbing in loose conditions all things considered. 

I do imagine a single pivot frame with any of the new coil shocks on the would be the cats pajamas in the venn diagram of reliability, maintenance, braking performance, climbing performance, and descending performance but I still understand that it wouldn't be better than a good multipivot system when you remove reliability and maintenance from that venn diagram.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> Invest in higher quality bearings at first change?


Bearing quality for bicycles matters very little. Bikes, especially MTBs are very harsh environment for a bearing and they die not because of being overworked, but because of dirt or water ( or both ) ingress. To handle that you'd need some sort of full contact labyrinth seals which nobody really does.

EDIT:


Kelly Parker said:


> Just saying it doesn’t have to be this way.


It kinda/sorta needs to. Cyclists are very weight and drag conscious, thus every elaborate sealing is both "too heavy" and "too draggy". Bearings are also very small, so any ingress causes significantly more damage. Old school cup/cone bearings dealt with this by being large and fully serviceable, but modern cartridge bearings are tiny in comparison.


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## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

If they wanted them to last, they wouldn't even use ball bearings. They would be greasable roller bearings with good seals, or even bushings. 

Using bigger bearing sizes would help, it would add the dreaded weight though and result in their frames being a few grams heavier.


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## Slow&Unsteadh (6 mo ago)

I prefer a linkage driven single pivot to the DW-Link on my Ripmo v2. I do a lot of climbing, and the single pivot suites my pedaling style better, i guess.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> If they wanted them to last, they wouldn't even use ball bearings. They would be greasable roller bearings with good seals, or even bushings.
> 
> Using bigger bearing sizes would help, it would add the dreaded weight though and result in their frames being a few grams heavier.


I had one of the first Lenz Sport bikes, which was a single pivot with bushing. It never wore out but it had some stiction that I didn't really love. Evil bikes are single pivot swingarms (they just use a linkage to drive the shock) and mine has been pretty darned reliable. Personally, I'll take whichever design functions best even if it requires more maintenance than a simpler design.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I blame PTSD gained from riding wally-world-tier bikes. No one wants to be reminded of that.

V-brakes? Yea, there are high quality versions of it that clamp/stop harder than even disc brakes, but the ones found on wally-world bikes ruined people's impression of v-brakes in general. Their beliefs will be nearly impossible to change through words alone.

Same goes for a lot of the other features found on cheap bikes. SR Suntour gets no respect due to the sub-$100 forks found on Trek Marlins or whatever. People spread their PTSD experience and give it a bad rap, like with how their lowers filled with water and found to be seized up when they tried riding it again after weeks/months of not riding. GL getting them to give a Durolux a fair try.

Heck, some people have PTSD with high-end stuff too. Canyon frames cracking/failing and being given the run around for months before getting a replacement, and YT industries just not being able to be reached after some E13 crap fails on them or whatever. People are even traumatized by their own mistakes, like trying to color match their bikes, and blaming the expensive parts instead. People become sensitive to non-matching colors and swear off anything based on color alone, even Kashima coat. Bridges burned.

Basically any frustration can trigger a response that sends negative vibes surrounding it. Avid/SRAM brakes still are recovering. Shimano's wandering brake point was an unmitigated dumpster fire. Some brand names still have nicknames, like "Crack & Fail", "Badly Made Carbon", or whatever. Creaks cause grief that's just short of PTSD. I feel bad that "Cane Creak" became a nickname, wondering if maybe the forks instead are the culprits behind some people's frustration.

Unfortunately, this is the case for simple suspension designs...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Varaxis said:


> V-brakes? Yea, there are high quality versions of it that clamp/stop harder than even disc brakes


Which v-brake stops harder than discs?


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

More simple and durable suspension designs? This looks promising.









Digit Datum MTB Frame — Digit Bikes


DATUM is a 140mm rear travel All-Mountain / Trail bike designed and manufactured in California, USA.




www.digitbikes.com


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

ARC8 Evolve FS have the total of 2 bearings for the rear suspension. And those two of 6902 size bearings are well hidden in the frame.
I think that's simple enough to maintain.

But I don't know how long would the sliding bushing rod last though.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

My first FS was a GT I-drive. I was very disappointed in its performance. 

I bought a Santa Cruz Chameleon hardtail frame and took as many parts as possible from the GT and built up a much better bike. 

Next, I was given a really nice and more sophisticated FS from a major company for free. (apparently I was an influencer before the term was popular because they also threw in a carbon road bike) That second FS was so much better than the single pivot GT. I kept it for years before moving on to a couple more Santa Cruz bikes. A 5010 and Tallboy, both current designs. 

At the time my oldest son had a last generation analog SC Heckler which was single pivot. It was alright but nothing as nice as the VPP. So, yeah, single pivot can work if done right but they are no match for multi-pivot designs. Of course, you can also buy a crappy multi-pivot to save money.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

Bike Whisperer said:


> Diamondback still offers a decent single pivot in 27.5" tires, certainly on par with those old Iron Horse Warrior single pivot frames.
> Atroz 3


I ordered one of those for our shop early in the year, a few customers test rode it before I took it for a spin. It's so bad I was embarrassed and ended up selling it at a deep discount to a guy to take to Burning Man. Worst bike imaginable. Not just the suspension, but the geometry made it feel like one of those $199 Walmart bikes from the early 2000's with decorative suspension. Not to mention the gearing was useless.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> I ordered one of those for our shop early in the year, a few customers test rode it before I took it for a spin. It's so bad I was embarrassed and ended up selling it at a deep discount to a guy to take to Burning Man. Worst bike imaginable. Not just the suspension, but the geometry made it feel like one of those $199 Walmart bikes from the early 2000's with decorative suspension. Not to mention the gearing was useless.


Ha! "Decorative suspension."
I love it.
=sParty


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

Ferrum seemed like a great steel single-pivot USA made option.....but it seems like they've gone the way of the dodo. Too bad, it was promising stuff.

EDIT: Nevermind, my search engine was too dumb to find it. www.ferrumbikes.com


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Nat said:


> Which v-brake stops harder than discs?


XTR V-brakes with Shimano carbon booster were pretty good.

And there’s been a lot of iffy disc brakes. I sold an original Hayes Mag (the beige one w/the non-reversible levers) a year-or-two ago and although it was fully functional… it was a terrible brake by today’s standards. Back-in-the-day I had it on the front of a first-gen Heckler in a mullet (back when mullet meant disc-front, rim-rear) configuration with that XTR V on the back… with the latter arguably being the better brake.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

BadgerOne said:


> Ferrum seemed like a great steel single-pivot USA made option.....but it seems like they've gone the way of the dodo. Too bad, it was promising stuff.
> 
> EDIT: Nevermind, my search engine was too dumb to find it. www.ferrumbikes.com


Really bad falling rate design. The Iron Horse is actually miles ahead of it in terms of suspension.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Nat said:


> Which v-brake stops harder than discs?


My Avid Black Ops with Altek levers on ceramic rims brake better than any single pot brakes I've owned. Even in the wet. So much better that I had a custom frame speced with canti studs rather than an IS tab to keep running this setup. Totally fine for a single speed hardtail and is the smart choice traveling to ride a place where you won't find support for hydro brakes, or suspension for that matter.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Nat said:


> Which v-brake stops harder than discs?


A question more vague has never been asked before  The 160/140 rotor sizes were chosen specifically to mimic typical v-brake setup. Honestly - there isn't that much a brake designer can do to vary brake force so provided we don't 'overclock' brakes using 220mm rotors, but stick to 160, then even top of the line brakes today are kinda/sorta similar to top of the line v-brakes. With all the caveats of rim brakes, of course.


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## Balgaroth (Dec 14, 2021)

Jayem said:


> Really bad falling rate design. The Iron Horse is actually miles ahead of it in terms of suspension.


Yup ! Add to this a very low Anti Squat which will make it pedal pretty terrible and this is definitely not the bike that will make anyone change their minds about single pivots. Same goes for Marino bikes actually, the design is way outdated. If anyone wants to try a single pivot I'd go Orange (the Evo stuff with the pivot near the top of the chainring) or Starling. Those are linear bikes which I don't agree with but at least they are not falling rate and the main pivot placement is good enough.

Now with a careful design you can make a single pivot that is very very similar to a SB150/160, I would argue better. That's 2 bearing vs too many bearings and a gimicky slinding thingy. While I can get on board with bikes that offer radical departure from what a single pivot can offer, I don't get the need for complexity to make a bike that is 95% what a single pivot can do. Same as the Polygon/Marin weird suspension that was doing more or less the same that could be achieved with a classic multi-pivot bike. In many cases it seems like those complicated designs are more to have something to say about "innovation" in the PR release than for actual ground braking performance.


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

What everyone is missing is the main benefit of more complex rear suspension designs is not descending but climbing super tech trails that old single pivot links would just make painful. Riding CBF right now which makes climbing super steep, loose, rocky trails with large step ups almost too easy. Yes it is heavier (18 bearings!!! ) but it is absolutely worth it. I would never win any XC races on it or be able to huck 6 foot drops on it (only 135 mm rear) but if you are old, have bad knees, back, etc. and want to go for a smooth 5 hour ride on very rough trails it can't be beat. Bombing down rough trails is almost too easy as well.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

I've climbed on a single pivot and it seemed fine.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Theres a proflex out there calling your name 

It’s not necessarily the suspension design, but the implementation of it in geometry, suspension part evolution,etc. 

Could be related to wheel size and travel too. Majority of bikes are 29ers, not 26ers. Maybe not. 

Original suspension designs were 50-60mm of travel on a 26in wheel and steep HA and slack SAs. Not sure I want to go back to that. 

I’m a fan of the CBF, on Canfields, because it feels so refined for either long or short travel. DW Link from Ibis i like for short travel bikes, but not longer travel bikes. My DH bike is a high pivot, which is requiring some suspension tuning to get the HSR to not feel like it’s going to launch me. And the high pivot has been the most frustrating to get to feel right. 

Specialized rode that 4 bar patent for years (horst link) even in the early days that suspension never felt great to me. Neither did my last 4 bar bike. But I’ve had maybe one that did. 

Single pivot it hit and miss. Had some good ones, had some meh ones. It depends where the pivot point is for me.


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

I’ve had multiple FS bikes, and with each one, suspension bearing life varied.

One way to extend bearing life might be angular contact bearings at suspension linkages. Angular contact may not solve all problems, but they would likely extend suspension bearing life.

I think Intense sells bikes with angular contact suspension linkages, but I don’t know of any other brands. One would think that manufacturers would add this perk to their bikes, especially considering how the prices of bikes has skyrocketed.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> If they wanted them to last, they wouldn't even use ball bearings. They would be greasable roller bearings with good seals, or even bushings.
> 
> Using bigger bearing sizes would help, it would add the dreaded weight though and result in their frames being a few grams heavier.


Having had a Turner with bushings, I can emphatically say that they were AWFUL in terms of reliability and durability.


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## Kelly Parker (Mar 15, 2017)

Kelly Parker said:


> I understand that some of the latest suspension designs gain a few hundreds of a sec for racers but for regular trail riders extreme or not, is it really needed to have fun riding a mountain bike? Example my 2003 ironhorse warrior pro single pivot (350 dollars with shock) is still kicking today with thousands of miles and still a few of my pr’s. It replaced my 2001 Ellsworth Truth that broke 3 times in 8 months of trail riding. I was very frustrated at Ellsworth bought this quick while waiting for replacement. I have changed the bearings 3 times in almost 19 years. My 2019 polygon N-9 every 800 miles for lower pivot and the rest of the bearings 1500 miles. I only have 4000 miles so far. It rides great but I’d like to have another ironhorse single pivot with updated geometry and big as bearings. Anyone else looking for a low maintenance bike that last that doesn’t cost as much as a car and have to be serviced like a Lamborghini. Just Ride.


Thanks for everyone’s input. I have a 1996 pro flex 856 if you are interested Stripes (it is ready to go). At your own risks. The ironhorse was an example from my personal experience waiting on an expensive broke down bike warranty replacement in 2002. Once the ironhorse had fox shocks front and rear (from my broken Ellsworth for the second time), it was pretty good. I never said it was the greatest ride out there. For 350 bucks 5” travel with a coil shock, how much can you complain, still kicking it as a mullet after 19 years. I have owned 8 different full suspension types over thirty years of riding, 19 different bikes in all, trails no park stuff. The orange bike would be great but frame only with shock is 2900. I paid 3100 including shipping for my polygon n-9 complete in 2019 with all fox. I recently for the 3 time have been chasing a creaking bearing on my polygon, not bearing failure but noisy even after cleaning and lubed. I ride no matter the weather so I expect more maintenance just because of the water fun. Will be looking for modern geo single pivot bike in the future that doesn’t cost a arm and a leg. You can keep the light weight stuff. Thanks for y’all.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Kelly Parker said:


> Will be looking for modern geo single pivot bike in the future that doesn’t cost a arm and a leg.


Sticker shock in 5...4...3...2...


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Balgaroth said:


> Now with a careful design you can make a single pivot that is very very similar to a SB150/160, I would argue better. That's 2 bearing vs too many bearings and a gimicky slinding thingy.


I'm inclined to go tangential for a moment by following up on your 'gimicky sliding thingy" comment, Balgaroth.
IMO you described Switch Infinity well.
It's not that Yeti's overly complicated gizmo doesn't do what Yeti says it does, it's just that it mimics DW Link's movement allllllllllmost exactly while being an expensive, bulbous, maintenance-prone, overly complicated way of getting around DW's patent.
That's it.
DW is a simple, small hinge.
SI is a huge, complicated thing that slides.
Why introduce stiction, Yeti?
I don't understand why anyone would prefer the latter over the former.
I imagine it's so they can claim membership in The Tribe.
Personally I'm not swallowing that pill.
That said, one of my best riding buddies has an SI-equipped Yeti (SB150) and absolutely loves it, so... whatever.
Overspend however you want to, folks.
=sParty


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## Iranian-Mechanic (May 6, 2004)

maybe because it simple desifns dont need much maintanance & work more and are more durable and the companies dont like these things
They like things to break more often and not to work for a decade or more like the bikes and parts that were made in the 2002-2012 era......


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

It's just about controlling the rear axle path. It's not some sinister planned obsolescence that everyone accuses engineers of.

BTW, I recall breaking **** a lot more in the 2002 time frame still


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## Balgaroth (Dec 14, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> It's just about controlling the rear axle path. It's not some sinister planned obsolescence that everyone accuses engineers of.
> 
> BTW, I recall breaking **** a lot more in the 2002 time frame still


Gear before definitely wasn't more reliable those who were riding 20 years ago remember. My Stinky 2004 was eating bearing like nothing else, my Nicolai M-pire and Ion ST were amazingly reliable, my Iron Horse Sunday was a great bike but piece of **** in terms of engineering, and so on. I would have no problem believing that Nicolai are still reliable AF simply because they don't cut corner, don't go for gimicky or lightest stuff but rather use valid engineering solutions. Wether it was 10 years or in 10 years bikes that use proper technical solutions will be reliabme, those that save a penny or a gram won't, as simple as that.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Having had a Turner with bushings, I can emphatically say that they were AWFUL in terms of reliability and durability.


Having had 3 turners with bushings, I can emphatically say that they were EXCELLENT in terms of reliability and durability. I've never had a bearing bike come close. The main issue with bushings is they require high precision/tolerances for fit and that's beyond what most companies want to spend. Ball bearings are a bad idea for limited rotation applications, which is why you won't find them on your car's suspension.

Ball bearings is actually the simpler-meh, good enough-fix.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Having had a Turner with bushings, I can emphatically say that they were AWFUL in terms of reliability and durability.


Having owned and ridden 2 Turner frames with bushings for 9 years, I would emphatically say the opposite. In my experience, they last damn near indefinitely.

The frame I just retired was my only FS bike for 6 years (a used 2012 5-Spot) and I have never changed the bushings. Still smooth and zero play. And I ride in some bad conditions.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

My ‘11 bushing-equipped Turner Sultan never gave me trouble throughout the 5 years I owned it, but it did suffer rear end wag. In fact I knew at least a half dozen fellow Sultan owners (probably more like a dozen) whose bikes rear ends wagged just like mine.

The wag was not bad. I didn’t detect it while in the saddle, but it was present.

I’m not saying bushings are bad. I fact I think I’d prefer them to bearings if only they could be tightened up a bit. 
=sParty


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> My ‘11 bushing-equipped Turner Sultan never gave me trouble throughout the 5 years I owned it, but it did suffer rear end wag. In fact I knew at least a half dozen fellow Sultan owners (probably more like a dozen) whose bikes rear ends wagged just like mine.
> 
> The wag was not bad. I didn’t detect it while in the saddle, but it was present.
> 
> ...


Bushings ARE bearings


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Jayem said:


> Bushings ARE bearings


Okay. So let’s stop calling them bushings. 
=sParty


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## webphut74 (5 mo ago)

_--->GT XCR_
At the time, the idea/design was actaully pretty interesting. I dont think it exists today, but if I was into riding trails still, I would buy a old one and fix it up and ride it today. I had a 1999 _GT XCR_-2000. I love them still!


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## DFWXC (6 mo ago)

DtEW said:


> XTR V-brakes with Shimano carbon booster were pretty good.


I went from XTR V brakes to the best Avid mech discs on the market at the time and was really underwhelmed. 

I upgraded to better Avid mech discs a few years later and ran them for about a decade, so it wasn't just Avid or mech hate. 

I put over a decade on my single pivot, and every test ride I would do of a "better" suspension design wasn't convincing enough to make me upgrade.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Would you guys who’ve replied pick a V-brake over a disc brake today? I see your qualifiers of 1-pot discs, mechanical discs, and 140mm-160mm rotors but who actually buys those anymore?


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I’m curious, too. 
FWIW I'm running 4-pot calipers & 220mm rotors.
=sRarty


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> It's just about controlling the rear axle path. It's not some sinister planned obsolescence that everyone accuses engineers of.
> 
> BTW, I recall breaking **** a lot more in the 2002 time frame still


I had a lot more broken parts back then even though I ride markedly harder on my bikes today. My bikes today are also 10# heavier but it's a trade-off that I'm good with.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Nat said:


> Would you guys who’ve replied pick a V-brake over a disc brake today? I see your qualifiers of 1-pot discs, mechanical discs, and 140mm-160mm rotors but who actually buys those anymore?


What mountain bikes come with canti posts these days? I was thinking back to a set of Marta SLs that were anemic. I have a set of Louise FRs on one bike that were install and forget though. They were a little down on power but some Danger Boy lever blades fixed that. I could probably get more power out of them with a bleed since they haven't been bled since 2006. They've never leaked so I've never thought about it.

I took the V setup mentioned above on a soggy slog across Iceland and never once thought about my brakes and I was riding fast and light. The ceramic rims are a game changer though.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

milehi said:


> What mountain bikes come with canti posts these days?


That's kind of my point. I don't lament the passing of rim brakes at all. I'm still waiting for Varaxis to clarify his statement. I often don't understand what he's trying to say so I've probably misunderstood him.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Size of the bearings matter too. I have never replaced a santa cruz bearing and I have some 2012 blurs still knocking around. But i run through rocky mountain bearings every 5 minutes.... they main pivot bearings on the rocky are too small and have no additional sealing. 

Also, additional sealing mechanisms also help.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Slow&Unsteadh said:


> I prefer the kinematics of my linkage driven single pivot to the DW-Link on my Ripmo v2. I do a lot of climbing, and the high antisquat and the leverage ratio of my cursingle pivot suites my pedaling style better, i guess.


Fixed it for you.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

I have to laugh when people say X bike rides better than Y because it uses X suspension design. How any suspension rides is a function of its kinematics. You can tune virtually any multilink design to feel like another depending on pivot placement. Likewise you can make a single pivot feel pretty close to most multilink bikes. It is amazing how many people don’t realize this is a single pivot bike.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

plummet said:


> Size of the bearings matter too. I have never replaced a santa cruz bearing and I have some 2012 blurs still knocking around. But i run through rocky mountain bearings every 5 minutes.... they main pivot bearings on the rocky are too small and have no additional sealing.
> 
> Also, additional sealing mechanisms also help.


I wish I could say that about my 2014 Heckler which depending on the level of my effort can be worn out in a year or two.

Speaking of simple suspension, I had a ‘94 hot chili x rage I rode all year long and while it was dormant for the last 10years before I gave it away this year to a friend I checked the two bearings.
One was a tad rough which was gone after a good clean and new grease.

I also still yet have to change the fluid or even bleed the HS33’s which are on the bike since ‘94.


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## benjpi (Mar 25, 2020)

Sparticus said:


> Invest in higher quality bearings at first change?
> Personally I like the performance of DW, CBF, etc. multi-link suspension designs.
> I have a 2018 Horst Link bike that I changed the bearings on once... they didn't need changing, I just figured it was probably about time (the bike was 2 years old.) Didn't need to change the bearings then and still haven't needed to change them. I ride year 'round in Oregon's wet, muddy conditions. I think bearing quality matters.
> =sParty


I'm not sure that full complement pivot bearings are generally available from NTN, SKF, etc. Ball bearings at pivots - especially the most heavily loaded ones by the bottom bracket - don't seem to be a great fit for the task at hand. Full complement bearings are better than caged bearings, but moving to roller bearings in these applications would probably greatly improve service live. I'd be curious to know where you got higher quality bearings for pivots. 

Pivots never complete a full revolution. So any ball bearing provides the opportunity for the balls to beat little dents into the races somewhere around sag, as the balls relationship to the race never really changes much. Whether the bearing is from NTN or from Balls R'Us doesn't really matter so much, ball bearings aren't a great fit for angular pivots where there are shock loads. Ibis have addressed this with their IGUS solution, but not without some additional friction. In my experience in the northeast - might be similar to your environment - the behind-the-bb bearings have a 1-year life, but the remainder of them might last much longer. I've not seen a bad Ibis bushing yet, but they are pretty stiff. 

Automotive hub assemblies might be the gold standard for abused parts and design. For a rear wheel drive vehicle, the front hub connects the tire to the suspension, spins, and attaches the brake disk (no drive responsibilities). These assemblies generally do three things: (1) they isolate the seal to ONE location, independent of the bearing - the cap at the rotating end rotates with the hub so there's only one seal (2) they use tapered roller bearings so the load capacity is much higher and (3) they use the minimum number of machined parts (axle, hub) to ensure that misalignment loads aren't part of the bearing life equation. To me this points to solutions where the pivots near the bottom bracket (highly loaded, mud sprayed) are as few as possible - i.e. Horst link, or single pivot (linkage driven shock (Kona) or otherwise)

It's easy to say then, "just copy that!", but tiny tapered roller bearings don't seem to be part of the market. The same holds true for spherical roller bearings - amazing things that would be a great fit, but don't seem to be made for the light loads that cycling would put into them.


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

Sparticus said:


> My ‘11 bushing-equipped Turner Sultan never gave me trouble throughout the 5 years I owned it, but it did suffer rear end wag. In fact I knew at least a half dozen fellow Sultan owners (probably more like a dozen) whose bikes rear ends wagged just like mine.
> 
> The wag was not bad. I didn’t detect it while in the saddle, but it was present.
> 
> ...


My Sultan's rear end became so loose it was no longer rideable. It wasn't the bushings that were the problem, it was the plastic shims and aluminum pivot pieces that would wear.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Jayem said:


> Bushings ARE bearings


But a lot easier to service. I could pull the rear end apart, clean and regrease, and put it back together in ten minutes on my old RM DH Race and Element. I did this twice a month in sloppy Oregon conditions, but once or twice a year in SoCal. My 16 year old Ventana with easily over 10K miles has never been serviced and the bearings are still smooth after 16 years. Those are double row bearings at each pivot and 99% of the riding and racing it's seen are dry conditions.


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## Balgaroth (Dec 14, 2021)

benjpi said:


> I'm not sure that full complement pivot bearings are generally available from NTN, SKF, etc. Ball bearings at pivots - especially the most heavily loaded ones by the bottom bracket - don't seem to be a great fit for the task at hand. Full complement bearings are better than caged bearings, but moving to roller bearings in these applications would probably greatly improve service live. I'd be curious to know where you got higher quality bearings for pivots.
> 
> Pivots never complete a full revolution. So any ball bearing provides the opportunity for the balls to beat little dents into the races somewhere around sag, as the balls relationship to the race never really changes much. Whether the bearing is from NTN or from Balls R'Us doesn't really matter so much, ball bearings aren't a great fit for angular pivots where there are shock loads. Ibis have addressed this with their IGUS solution, but not without some additional friction. In my experience in the northeast - might be similar to your environment - the behind-the-bb bearings have a 1-year life, but the remainder of them might last much longer. I've not seen a bad Ibis bushing yet, but they are pretty stiff.
> 
> ...


I know that dirtbikes use needle bearing for the suspension component. By your explanation as to why bearings are bad for suspension (which I agree with) those would be as bad as ball bearings. Main difference I can see is massive seals on both sides but then again needle bearings are not self sealed so there is no choice. And they usually only last a season or two if you ride regularly. If dirtbike industry hasn't found a solutions while having incomparable R&D budgets we are not gonna see a chàge any time soon.

As for V-brakes its a funny topic. Only bike I ride that still has one is my race Bmx. For that use it is plenty powerful as we ride 5bars in slick tires on gravel or tarmac so grip is so limited that power is almost always too much and no risk of tire slipping on the rim either. Not when it rains even with this poor grip setup you manage to wish for discs as v-brakes are useless in the wet. My first discs where HFX Mags and while not being perfect, consistent power dry or wet what a revolution for me.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Nat said:


> Would you guys who’ve replied pick a V-brake over a disc brake today?


How is that relevant to anything? You asked a specific question, you were provided with 100% true and accurate answer. Starting a crusade to deal with the cognitive dissonance just speaks about your weakness of character.



> I see your qualifiers of 1-pot discs, mechanical discs, and 140mm-160mm rotors but who actually buys those anymore?


140 might be difficult to mount on most MTB frames. Some lightweight XC frames use flat mount so I reckon some people do use them.
160 is the most popular rotor size in the world.
Single piston brakes are the most popular type in the world.
Mechanical discs get a bad rep.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

uzurpator said:


> How is that relevant to anything? You asked a specific question, you were provided with 100% true and accurate answer. Starting a crusade to deal with the cognitive dissonance just speaks about your weakness of character.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol okay pal


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## benjpi (Mar 25, 2020)

Balgaroth said:


> I know that dirtbikes use needle bearing for the suspension component. By your explanation as to why bearings are bad for suspension (which I agree with) those would be as bad as ball bearings. Main difference I can see is massive seals on both sides but then again needle bearings are not self sealed so there is no choice. And they usually only last a season or two if you ride regularly. If dirtbike industry hasn't found a solutions while having incomparable R&D budgets we are not gonna see a chàge any time soon.
> 
> As for V-brakes its a funny topic. Only bike I ride that still has one is my race Bmx. For that use it is plenty powerful as we ride 5bars in slick tires on gravel or tarmac so grip is so limited that power is almost always too much and no risk of tire slipping on the rim either. Not when it rains even with this poor grip setup you manage to wish for discs as v-brakes are useless in the wet. My first discs where HFX Mags and while not being perfect, consistent power dry or wet what a revolution for me.


I replaced the bushings in the swingarm on my 1979 RD400F with needle bearings in the late 1980's, as far as I know they were never changed again. I didn't know that they had a shorter lifespan in dirt bikes, but it does make sense for regularly ridden use. The same is true for MTB; some people may get years out of their bearing set, some will need a new set every season. 

The load condition for a roller bearing changes from a point (a ball on a flat surface) to a line so the load is spread over more metal. That's oversimplifying of course but the load ratings for similarly sized roller and ball bearings are much different.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

uzurpator said:


> How is that relevant to anything? You asked a specific question, you were provided with 100% true and accurate answer. Starting a crusade to deal with the cognitive dissonance just speaks about your weakness of character.


Seriously, Ooze?
You start drinking a little early today or something? CBD not working right?
Your response above was over the top. Nat asked a reasonable question of the people who claim Vs are better than discs. I wondered the same thing and said so. Nothing wrong about asking those folks if they actually put their money where their mouth is.
By the way, Nat's a stand up guy. Labeling his character weak tarnishes your own cred. Sorry but it's true. Glad Nat's able to laugh off your claims of 'starting a crusade' (really?) and 'weak character.' SMH
=sParty


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Sparticus said:


> Seriously, Ooze?
> You start drinking a little early today or something? CBD not working right?
> Your response above was over the top. Nat asked a reasonable question of the people who claim Vs are better than discs. I wondered the same thing and said so. Nothing wrong about asking those folks if they actually put their money where their mouth is.
> By the way, Nat's a stand up guy. Labeling his character weak tarnishes your own cred. Sorry but it's true. Glad Nat's able to laugh off your claims of 'starting a crusade' (really?) and 'weak character.' SMH
> =sParty


Thanks homie. I was wondering if he’d been drinking too.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Having had 3 turners with bushings, I can emphatically say that they were EXCELLENT in terms of reliability and durability. I've never had a bearing bike come close. The main issue with bushings is they require high precision/tolerances for fit and that's beyond what most companies want to spend. Ball bearings are a bad idea for limited rotation applications, which is why you won't find them on your car's suspension.
> 
> Ball bearings is actually the simpler-meh, good enough-fix.


"YMMV". Someone else above described the worn Turner pushing feel perfectly: "wagging rear end". I had an XCE that developed that slop quickly and creaked like crazy. And those zerk fittings inevitably got jammed up/clogged up. Sold it and got an Uzzi SL and never looked back. That said, the guy who bought my Turner rode the piss out of it for years, so it was a well built bike overall.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Once in a while we all get into the booze and start posting.
I mean… don’t we? 
=sParty

P.S. Oops, my post is out of context. Wasn’t talking to you, Rick.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Sparticus said:


> Once in a while we all get into the booze and start posting.
> I mean… don’t we?
> =sParty
> 
> P.S. Oops, my post is out of context. Wasn’t talking to you, Rick.


Having a little eye opener there?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

RickBullottaPA said:


> "YMMV". Someone else above described the worn Turner pushing feel perfectly: "wagging rear end". I had an XCE that developed that slop quickly and creaked like crazy. And those zerk fittings inevitably got jammed up/clogged up. Sold it and got an Uzzi SL and never looked back. That said, the guy who bought my Turner rode the piss out of it for years, so it was a well built bike overall.


I have no idea what "wagging" means, but I do know the sultan lacked the cross-brace that other models had, due to being 29er and 29er FS bikes not being totally sorted. So if it "wagged" due to this, it's not the bushing's fault. Some people did cut little channels in their bushings for the zerks or something, so they'd flow/purge easier.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Kelly Parker said:


> I understand that some of the latest suspension designs gain a few hundreds of a sec for racers but for regular trail riders extreme or not, is it really needed to have fun riding a mountain bike? Example my 2003 ironhorse warrior pro single pivot (350 dollars with shock) is still kicking today with thousands of miles and still a few of my pr’s. It replaced my 2001 Ellsworth Truth that broke 3 times in 8 months of trail riding. I was very frustrated at Ellsworth bought this quick while waiting for replacement. I have changed the bearings 3 times in almost 19 years. My 2019 polygon N-9 every 800 miles for lower pivot and the rest of the bearings 1500 miles. I only have 4000 miles so far. It rides great but I’d like to have another ironhorse single pivot with updated geometry and big as bearings. Anyone else looking for a low maintenance bike that last that doesn’t cost as much as a car and have to be serviced like a Lamborghini. Just Ride.


I've always loved single pivot bikes. My 2008 Heckler was my favorite. I have a linkage bike now, and yeah it works well and all, but I don't like the complexity of the design. I'm currently building up a cheap single pivot frame that I bought used. We'll see how that goes.

Why bike companies aren't making them anymore, or at least not outside entry level bikes? Because people want new technology. More complex designs have to be better, right? Plus, it's probably kind of hard to get big $$$ for something so simple and dead nuts reliable.


.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Jayem said:


> I have no idea what "wagging" means, but I do know the sultan lacked the cross-brace that other models had, due to being 29er and 29er FS bikes not being totally sorted. So if it "wagged" due to this, it's not the bushing's fault. Some people did cut little channels in their bushings for the zerks or something, so they'd flow/purge easier.


Wag, like a dog’s tail. Side to side. 
=sParty


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> Wag, like a dog’s tail. Side to side.
> =sParty


Maybe it was just happy?


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## JEMColorado (Aug 24, 2021)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Have you ridden modern suspensions? They do a better job of dealing with the compromise between active + efficient. I hopped on an old Santa Cruz superlight a couple years ago and couldn't believe how awful it felt after a couple years on my Hightower. And a bearing job on my Hightower (about every 2 years) now takes me about 45 minutes.


My first FS was a single pivot design and I seemed to go through chains much faster than my recent FSR bikes.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> You start drinking a little early today or something? CBD not working right?


I don't drink. No, literally, I don't.



> Nat asked a reasonable question of the people who claim Vs are better than discs. I wondered the same thing and said so. Nothing wrong about asking those folks if they actually put their money where their mouth is.


His original query was nothing of the sort. My response spoke nothing to 'betterness' of one above another. The other answer was nothing more then a testimony. Both Nat clumped together under a dismissive 'question'. I assume was done in bad faith.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Ventana is a simple single pivot. The frames also come with a needle bearing main pivot with a grease port and dual bearings at the other pivots. Great suspension kinematics too and absolutely no frame flex. Two things I don't care for are the curved top tube and the press fit BB, but with Ventana you can get whatever you want. Customer service and support is great and everything including powder and heat treating is done in house. Turn around is quick too. I had a full custom frame with custom powder at my door in three weeks with them being out of the shop for a week during that time for Christmas. I've never had to service or mess with the frame. They've also helped with product development and manufacturing for Fat Chance, Felt, Karpiel, KHS, Kona, Marin, Pacenti, Specialized, Santa Cruz, and Turner just to name a few.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

milehi said:


> Ventana is a simple single pivot.


The OP was referring to non-linkage bikes. Linkage dramatically increases the complexity. Not that it's bad, I'd rather have it, but you _can_ make a single pivot with decent leverage curve and kinematics...not as good as linkage, but close. There are some significant pivotfalls with non-linkage single pivot though, one is that rate, if you aren't doing it right, you end up with a falling rate. Another is rear end stiffness. There are some SP non-linkage designs that no matter how "beefy" they make certain parts, they can never compete with a linkage bike that reinforces the rear triangle in multiple places. All comes down to execution.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Jayem said:


> There are some significant pivotfalls with non-linkage single pivot though...


"Pivotfalls" -- I like it. It's descriptive of pitfalls specific to suspension designs. 
=sParty


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