# An e Road Bike



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

While I am no pro level rider like Walt I have had a few basehits in the bike industry over the years. Not big on listing palmares but you can perhaps get a hint of what one of them was from my forum nom de guerre. That said I have been putting small motors on bicycles since 2001 and have followed their development here and across the pond ever since. Not to exclusivity but at this time it is my main form of riding due to lack of single track out the front door and a plethora of roads....

So in the spirit of the forum as described I am proposing a post about what e bikes can actually be good for without harming anyone.









I have been viewing the vitriol here with some amusement for the most part. I feel that e mtb's are in a cart before the horse situation compared to their introduction across the pond(s) where e bikes got market share first by use on roads as basic transportation. The evolution in to e mtb's, in the EU especially, and promoted by the big EU companies like ACCELL etc. so when they came to our market that is what they brought due to their popularity there and they haven't paid much attention to the road side of things.

But if you follow the news drop bar e bikes are starting to appear and that is the type I have been riding now for a year and a half. My bike(s) are both Direct Drive 52v/1000w (legal in OR where I live). I would say on average that during a ride I see mostly between 150-750w on my readout but with the hammer down as much as 1250w. My rides are mostly on rural two lane and gravel roads to avoid traffic and for scenic reasons but I do venture in to the city now and then also.









I use a front hub motor for a couple of reasons. One is that it keeps my drivetrain totally isolated from the motor output which means I can use the gear ratios and pedal in put I desire at all times. So that precludes the use of PAS for me and I prefer a throttle with cruise control that I can set at different outputs. Lot's of hate for throttles on e bikes but if used properly they are the way to go IMNSHO.

Another reason is weight distribution. While most perceive that a heavy hub motor in the front would be detrimental I don't find that to be the case at all. I can still unweight it if necessary but for sure it doesn't wheelie well. But with the battery and controller low in the triangle and my weight biased towards the rear the bikes are super stable. I run 40-47c tyres on i23-25 rims tubeless in the 35psi range which really helps absorb road condition variables. They practically float over gravel and feel fine on pavé also. No extra shock absorption needed as far as I can see.

Oh yeah, and front wheel drive is even more of a hoot than you think it might be. Especially if you factor in your input which makes it AWD and there is some serious hill climbing ability on tap. And did I mention that if I want to just ride analog I can swap out the front wheel in about 2 minutes and leave the battery at home? Which admittedly I don't do as I have a mtb for that duty.

Both bikes have the necessary gearing to be fully pedal able at speed because that is the best part of e road biking The High Speed Schlumpf on the silver bike has like a 150" top gear and a 28" gear on the bottom end.

The trick to getting the most out of any e bike is having the correct battery info which to me is the ah used. Most are voltage readouts which is not as accurate as it will vary under load and bounce back and forth. Another thing is that as voltage drops you will lose efficiency gradually until you get to about the last 1/3 of the battery and then it will drop rather fast. Ah will drop correspondingly but because you know what the ah rating of the battery is it is easier to see where you are til you know it will run out.









Both bikes will go over 30 under power on level ground which puts them over the top legally along with the fact that they are throttle only. But in the roughly 4k I have put on them I have always ridden responsibly and with consideration for others. On bike paths/lanes I putt along with the flow happily. On the open road speed is totally dependent on the time table and terrain of the ride. If I don't have much time I will be apt to have a faster average speed than if I am trying to go for distance with time not a factor as much. Most rides I just try and gauge how far and fast I can go with the battery I have on board. Probably my average speed over all is in the high teens to low 20's and 15 or so wh/mi.

As a long time mtb'r I have found the road bike crowd to be kind of stand offish but I always try and acknowledge those that I meet and not just go blasting past without ringing my bell. I know there is resistance from that sector also but every ride is not a race folks, and fun is the final factor. Also it is a handy way to go pick up the car from the shop as I did this afternoon.









So between road riding, commuting and cargo duty e bikes can be useful which hopefully in time folks on this board will come to realize and utilize. Keep bashing away at e mtb's if you must but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Good report on real world experiences, now if only we could get the MTB crowd to realize that "not every ride is a race". Maybe then they could get over the whole "you cheated" thing.......


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

WoodlandHills said:


> Good report on real world experiences, now if only we could get the MTB crowd to realize that "not every ride is a race". Maybe then they could get over the whole "you cheated" thing.......


So you're setting yourself apart from cyclists? That's kind of the point.


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## gumba (Dec 18, 2016)

I picked up a Litespeed Unicoi soft tail earlier this year and converted it using the BBSHD kit and a might mini battery. I use it as an alternative for my road bike when it's really windy or just want a casual ride. Also nice to have the option to go on gravel and trails.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> Good report on real world experiences, now if only we could get the MTB crowd to realize that "not every ride is a race". Maybe then they could get over the whole "you cheated" thing.......





Ailuropoda said:


> So you're setting yourself apart from cyclists? That's kind of the point.


Why are either of you discussing eMTB's in this thread?

Please don't, there are plenty of other threads for discussing eMTB's, Trail access, etc. This is not one of them.

Back to the OP - Great post, thank you. How much range can you get from your setup if you average 25-30mph? Once a new BIke Path is finished between near where I live and near my work I have thought about using a Roadie eBike for commuting on occasion. I live 34 miles from my work, If I can average 30mph, I can commute in just over an hour each way. Once the bike path is in place that is actually an option to sustain higher speeds without having to stop for Traffic Signals.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

Bigwheel said:


> So between road riding, commuting and cargo duty e bikes can be useful which hopefully in time folks on this board will come to realize and utilize. Keep bashing away at e mtb's if you must but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


I spent years on the road before getting back into MTB. I still ride on the road and may begin commuting on a drop-bar e-bike.

I think roadies poke fun at e-bikes much in the same way MTBers do, but roadies don't see them as a threat. Instead, the threat is motorists. Cyclists get run off the road all the time, and all the ghost bikes are a constant reminder.

I like ebikes for three reasons in particular:

1. They're a blast to ride

2. A person on an ebike is not behind the wheel

3. Ebikes can potentially draw more people into the general sport of cycling. Anyone who rides "should" be just a bit more courteous to cyclists on the road than someone who doesn't ride. This is irrespective of whether this person is riding fat or skinny tires.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Back to the OP - Great post, thank you. How much range can you get from your setup if you average 25-30mph? Once a new BIke Path is finished between near where I live and near my work I have thought about using a Roadie eBike for commuting on occasion. I live 34 miles from my work, If I can average 30mph, I can commute in just over an hour each way. Once the bike path is in place that is actually an option to sustain higher speeds without having to stop for Traffic Signals.


The big thing is that e bikes only put out about 1 h.p. or so which when you start moving through air at over 20 mph will help do the job with active pedaling in put to get you up to the mid to high 20's but it will take all it's "energy" known as watts to do so which will sap a battery fast.

I find that to average speeds above 25mph you will be using the corresponding wh/mi as evidenced here:








I routinely do a 20 mile commute that is 1/3 2 lane country road, 1/3 wide shoulder 4 lane highway and 1/3 city surface streets and because I know I will be able to recharge the battery during the day I mostly go as fast as conditions allow which takes me an average of 45 minutes @ 20wh/mi. The beauty of it is that sometimes it takes me longer to do this in my car and I get a 40 mile bike ride in instead of sitting in a cage.

So my suggestion would be that you could probably do your commute but it would take you at least a 17ah battery with an average speed of more like 25mph. As you say you would like to do it on occasion so on those occasional days you could plan on leaving a little earlier and getting home a little later. But I think that you would like the feeling you get when you get to work energized by the ride and how much better that beer tastes when you get home.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks for the info!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm about to convert my Bakfiets into a hub-motor e-bike. Riding with the rest of the family on the Radwagon is just not fun for anyone if I can only go half their speed. Hoping that a 13.5 aH battery will give me a decent (ie 20 miles) range even with my very non-aero/heavy rig.

Agreed that e-bikes on the road/commuter paths are basically 100% a good thing. There are a TON popping up around here - mostly Pedego. I'm going to have to get used to sharing the bike path! Horrors!

I haven't seen any e-road bikes but road riding isn't a big thing around here, and I don't even own a road bike, so if there were a bunch, I'd probably be unaware of it.

-Walt


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Bigwheel said:


> . [snip] and how much better that beer tastes when you get home.


I dunno- stress and road rage makes me pretty thirsty.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Bigwheel said:


> As a long time mtb'r I have found the road bike crowd to be kind of stand offish but I always try and acknowledge those that I meet and not just go blasting past without ringing my bell. I know there is resistance from that sector also but every ride is not a race folks, and fun is the final factor. Also it is a handy way to go pick up the car from the shop as I did this afternoon.


They're not standoffish...you're just not really a cyclist when you're on a powered bike so you're not in their club or sport or whatever you want to call it. I pass guys who are fishing on the local bridges and they're kind of standoffish, too.

It's like whooping it up and bragging about how you tore up a trail on your eBike to a bunch of mountain bikers. We're glad you had fun but you're not exactly doing the same activity.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

They are being stand-offish. It is just the nature of road bikers and has nothing to do with being on an ebike. They were just like that when I pedaled a recumbent: it was the Wrong Kind of Bike: if you don't ride an expensive diamond frame with skinny tires and wear gaudy costumes with advertising plastered all over, you dont exist as far as they are concerned. Try showing up with a cheapo off brand bike and denim shorts and a tee shirt: they are just as snobby then too.......


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## DL723 (Sep 25, 2017)

This is prob on the opposite of do it yourself but he gets pretty impressive range in the mountains.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

Ailuropoda said:


> They're not standoffish...you're just not really a cyclist when you're on a powered bike so you're not in their club or sport or whatever you want to call it. I pass guys who are fishing on the local bridges and they're kind of standoffish, too.





WoodlandHills said:


> They are being stand-offish. It is just the nature of road bikers and has nothing to do with being on an ebike. They were just like that when I pedaled a recumbent: it was the Wrong Kind of Bike: if you don't ride an expensive diamond frame with skinny tires and wear gaudy costumes with advertising plastered all over, you dont exist as far as they are concerned. Try showing up with a cheapo off brand bike and denim shorts and a tee shirt: they are just as snobby then too.......


It has more to do with the paceline than anything else. Can a guy hold a wheel and will he take his turn pulling at the front?

No point in chatting with someone at a stoplight only to tell them, "sorry, please stay off my wheel. Your US Postal jersey and hairy legs don't inspire confidence."

I haven't seen too many drop bar e-bikes yet, but roadies LOVE wheel-sucking my tandem. I'd imagine they'd love wheel-sucking a class 3 pedelec as well.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

After the last few weeks of i'm glad I have mudguards weather a big high pressure has hit the PDX and although known as a bicycle city it is not a mtb city so that is why I have adopted the county roads, gravé and pavé, and the various firelanes in the city park for my cycling jollies.























One thing is that for me my e bikes take the place of my ex motorcycle habit. Recently I had a nice KTM dual sport but just going for "a ride" was boring, but it did work well for commuting. Now I can still do the commute and my rides are anything but boring as I am combining two well liked activities, getting some exercise and seeing the country and city side at a tempo that allows me to take it all in. A lot easier to travel with too.

Also I did in fact just the other day give a guy a tow and he thanked me for it when we parted. I'm not under any delusions that I am being a "roadie" and don't post my stats on the UA site. I just use it to track myself.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

BW, great information. My first foray into "e" was a front hubster and was excellent for errands (and not bad for off road) for the reasons you state, although I ride upright since (I guess my fat head weighs too much) drop bar is uncomfortable. Try to avoid the roads in OC as much as possible for safety reasons, and wish there were more "countrified" areas without needing to take a long drive to get there. Would relocate except for the kids and granddaughter.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

Bigwheel, you've inspired me to try the front hub motor on our road tandem. 

I really like the idea of being able to swap out the front wheel and dump the battery in a pinch. The tandem is already setup for a trunk bag and also has four bottle cage mounts. 

The bike has been collecting dust for the last few years. Would be nice to take it out again on some mountain roads without turning it into a hammer/suffer fest. 

Where did you buy your setup from?

Thanks.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I thought this was a pretty slick for a short range setup.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/swytch-convert-any-bike-into-an-ebike-electric#/


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

EricTheDood said:


> Bigwheel, you've inspired me to try the front hub motor on our road tandem.
> 
> I really like the idea of being able to swap out the front wheel and dump the battery in a pinch. The tandem is already setup for a trunk bag and also has four bottle cage mounts.
> 
> ...


I get my stuff from Grin Tech (ebikes.ca) in Vancouver, BC. It helps that I am up there some as I have a son that lives there and am able to go by their facility. They are really all about kit bikes and have taken the time to document tons of info about e systems in general. Justin Lemire-Elmore is a nice guy and this, caution long, interview highlights his knowledge: 



 Since this interview they have moved to a larger facility which they seem to do every few years as they are expanding at a consistent rate.

Their All Axle motor is what I have on the silver bike and it is about 4 lbs. lighter than the 9c on the black bike. I like the built in torque arm on the AA but haven't been able to take advantage of the thru axle compatibility yet due to lack of fork selection in my price range, as in cheapish. Many are put off by front hub motors because they think they will tear apart the fork and this if they are setup up properly with a torque arm is not at all true. The black bike has about 2k on it and has a BD CF fork with CF dropouts and there is no discernible wear on them at all. It is kind of a pain to have a nutted hub and bolt on torque arm though and the way I have the AA setup it is tool less in and out. Just have to let the QR go, give it a few spins to get past the lawyer lips and undo a few wire connections.

I use their 35A controller set at 25A as that is all the power I need (52V x 25A = 1300w) but truth be told I torched a 25A controller doing some serious hill climbing in hot weather last summer and this one has never even gotten warm.

I have one of their 11Ah (10.5 actual) HL shark batteries that I can get 18 miles full gas or in the 30's mostly. Really dependent on my mood, time and terrain. I like the looks of their 16.5Ah battery of the same design which would extend my range by 60% but I am waiting for a 21700 cell battery to show up here hopefully early next year. Most rides and time to ride the battery I have does the job. Rarely do I get done with a ride on one bike and then come home and head out on the other. Much like the way the manufacturers are specing two battery systems for shorter tripping it doesn't make sense to carry the extra weight of too much battery. But I can think of some rides that it would be nice.

Their Cycle Analyst III is a must have tool IMNSHO. It is kind of clunky looking but the control it allows you over the bikes controller and the super accurate readout in watts and Ah's while on the go makes it head and shoulders over most displays simple Voltage readouts which it also has but I don't use as it fluctuates too much.

As I liken riding my e bikes to riding a tandem with a really fit stoker I would imagine that on a true tandem with a front hub motor it would be more like a really fit captain with two stokers . I wouldn't mount anything heavy in that trunk bag though, i'd go with your lowest bottle bosses for good handlings sake. Tandems can be whippy enough without having that amount of weight up there.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

@Bigwheel, thanks for the detailed info! It's a huge help!


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

There are benefits of all the different bike assists that are dependent on the riders needs/expectations. The beauty is that all bases are covered. Should it be one vs the other or one or the other.
Why Hub Motors - Learn


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Did a conversion to an 11spd Alfine Di2 and general systems maintenance including switching back to 700c on both ends. The general idea was to sharpen up the shifting and I would have to say it is a resounding success. You can't shift under a big load but you shouldn't do that on any bicycle so it just takes common sense. The coolest feature is you can hold down on the paddle and it will go through as many gears as you want with one push up or down. I'll never get caught at the stoplight again in the wrong gear!









Riding an e bike efficiently is like riding any bike efficiently. Keeping your momentum going is key and having the right selection of ratios's on tap aids in that. Spensive but worth it.


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