# Ideas for putting political pressure on oppressive land managers



## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Chazpat and I were brainstorming ideas in the ticket thread about the best way to overturn oppressive land use policies. The discussion deserved it's own thread. This is not a place to discuss whether or not you feel the bans should be overturned. There are many types of oppression; Federal, State and private etc. so be clear on the type of agency. What has worked and what hasn't?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

What oppressive land use policies are you talking about? As far as Federal goes I think their land use policies are the opposite of oppressive.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> What oppressive land use policies are you talking about? As far as Federal goes I think their land use policies are the opposite of oppressive.


This.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Linktung said:


> Chazpat and I were brainstorming ideas in the ticket thread about the best way to overturn oppressive land use policies. The discussion deserved it's own thread. This is not a place to discuss whether or not you feel the bans should be overturned. There are many types of oppression; Federal, State and private etc. so be clear on the type of agency. What has worked and what hasn't?


Start by not alienating the very people you need on your side in order to achieve any measurable success.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

lol, is that what we were doing?

But ok, you had posted that it works in Europe and I had pointed out that the US regulations are different than the European ones and if you want to make that argument you should work to change the US regulations. I suggest you research how the US regulations came about. I believe Bikes for People had a big role in that. Write a nice letter to whoever you can find that played a part in developing the US regs and explain that you believe trail access in the US is difficult to gain due to the higher power and speed cut-off in the US and you would like to work to change US regulations to match the European, which seems to work well.

I think it will be difficult for, as they say, the train has already left the station. Which is why a lot of us make these so called "slippery slope" arguments; if our fears are shown to in fact be reality, it will be very difficult to real things back in.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

chazpat said:


> I suggest you research how the US regulations came about. I believe Bikes for People had a big role in that. Write a nice letter to whoever you can find that played a part in developing the US regs and explain that you believe trail access in the US is difficult to gain due to the higher power and speed cut-off in the US and you would like to work to change US regulations to match the European, which seems to work well.


P4B is the *only* reason those regs came about, they've written them, found willing partners in each state to back them in their state legislations and paid for it. Since the industry funds 99.9% of their budget, their sole goal is to sell bikes and ebikes.

I've asked, and their reasoning for not adopting the EU standards is that there were already industry members selling 750w ebikes, and ebikes with throttles, which is why the regs are a mismash of former US and current EU. Since their intent with the legislation is to get ebikes on bike paths, they say they didn't consider how the US regs would impact emtb access. Or maybe they did and just don't care.

This is the only thing I've run across over the years where, in this case, Larry Pizzi, who is the driving force behind legalizing ebikes in the US comments on a potential different catagory for emtbs. Other than that, there's been nothing, and the P4B legislation is becoming increasingly clear with each interation that it doesn't apply to singletrack.



> The end goal of the BPSA's legislation (see sidebar) is to have the lowest category of e-bikes classified as bicycles. I ask him: Do you mean then that these would be regulated exactly the same as bikes, allowed on the same trails? He hedges a bit. "I think we'll create another category," he said. "Right now, there's a bold black line between motorized and non-motorized categories, and maybe we need a new category, closer to non-motorized. Call it hybrid."


https://www.elevationoutdoors.com/the-electric-slide/


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> What oppressive land use policies are you talking about? As far as Federal goes I think their land use policies are the opposite of oppressive.


That is very much dependent on what region you happen to be in. Riders in MT and northern ID might strongly disagree with you.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ACree said:


> That is very much dependent on what region you happen to be in. Riders in MT and northern ID might strongly disagree with you.


Maybe, but if the oppressive government hadn't put aside land in the first place we'd all be begging (e.g. paying) to ride.


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Maybe, but if the oppressive government hadn't put aside land in the first place we'd all be begging (e.g. paying) to ride.


The gov't setting aside land for public use 100 plus years ago is not an argument that current USFS management is not oppressive to some users.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ACree said:


> The gov't setting aside land for public use 100 plus years ago is not an argument that current USFS management is not oppressive to some users.


No doubt, can't please everyone though.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Money. That's what it takes to change regs and get access. 

That's how the horse people took away access here. It works both ways, you just need more cash than whoever is against you.


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## 2bfluid (Aug 17, 2008)

One Pivot said:


> Money. That's what it takes to change regs and get access.
> 
> That's how the horse people took away access here. It works both ways, you just need more cash than whoever is against you.


I disagree. Money helps, but even more so is the relationship with the land manager and are user groups continuously holding up their end of the bargin helping with maintenence and trying to improve user group interactions.

In today's world showing up to a land manager with a wish list is a joke. Showing up to lead/do repeated work days, being respectful of policies while clearly/gently/constructively pushing back on the ones that go against a particular groups wishes, will go a long, long way.

The same can be said for folks joining boards and committees that make decisions, and then presenting collective support for changing the management plan for a land manager.

Timing is also huge. When a land management plan comes up for review you better be their with bells on. You have to be professional and willing to pony up and offer to help and possibly make some hard decisions/concessions to get what you want.

But again, if you already have a strong relationship of showing up and helping the land manager achieve their goals, they will probably be more receptive to your requests.

And yes, money helps.


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

2bfluid said:


> I disagree. Money helps, but even more so is the relationship with the land manager and are user groups continuously holding up their end of the bargin helping with maintenence and trying to improve user group interactions.
> 
> In today's world showing up to a land manager with a wish list is a joke. Showing up to lead/do repeated work days, being respectful of policies while clearly/gently/constructively pushing back on the ones that go against a particular groups wishes, will go a long, long way.
> 
> ...


2bfluid concisely and clearly lays out the formula for effective advocacy and in my opinion an explanation for the heated debate and division between mountain bikers and electric motorized bikers.

As a mountain biker and an advocate, I am very disappointed to read/hear of mountain bikers supporting and/or promoting blanket bans on electric motorized bikes. Mountain bikers have been and still face oppressive management actions and are denied trail access due to decisions based upon emotions, influence and everything else but an honest review of facts.

P4B was very aware of the process to earn legitimacy, to earn respect, to earn a seat at the table, to have an opportunity to earn trail access for electric motorized bikes. P4B understood what we mountain bikers knew; the process to earn respect, the process to build relationships based on respect, honor and integrity takes time.

P4B and the manufacturers decided to take a different route. By creating "classes" of electric motorized bikes and equating a class or two with bicycles, manufacturers could bypass the "time to earn respect" part and jump right into the "making profit" part.

I advocate for mountain biking access, both new and existing. The biggest threat to access in San Diego is development. The second biggest threat is mountain bikers. The solid relationships we have built and earned over the past two and a half decades, not just with land managers but with other trail users, are the only reasons we continue to enjoy the privilege of access.

If anyone or any entity were to threaten access in SD County to equestrians or hikers on a multi-use trail that mountain bikers have the privilege of access, then they have also threatened mountain bikers access and we swing a big mf'ing stick.

I can understand the frustration of the electric motorized bikers having to be subjected to what I consider flawed reasoning to deny them access. Arguments based on emotions have no place here. Hypothetical situations, many of which can be directed to mountain bikers or other user groups, have no place here.

If anyone in the electric motorized bicycle camp cannot understand how a decision to put profits for a very select few over the well being of trail systems and how to mitigate to offset potential issues, if you cannot understand this, then pay attention because I'm going to explain something that you need to understand:

P4B killed any chance of electric motorized BIKERS being considered equal to mountain bikers. All of the legalese, all the classes, all the efforts to equate an electric motorized BIKE with a mountain bike may enjoy limited or even widespread success. The audacity to think they could eliminate the time consuming process of earning respect and earning the privilege for trail access by taking the efforts of decades of work and calling it their own, well, P4B rubbed some people wrong with their strategy.

When I see the electric motorized biking community put forth the effort and commitment to earn the respect from land managers, other trail user groups, and mountain bikers, and if they are fortunate enough to earn the privilege for trail access in areas in my County, then any threat to them will be a threat to mountain bikers and as stated before we swing a mf'ing big stick. I have yet to meet one electric motorized bicycle advocate, therefore, I cannot be expected to advocate for a group that has not showed up.

Lastly, it seems to me the electric motorized bicycle users are expecting P4B or other entities to secure trail access by way of regulations at a State and/or federal level. It wouldn't hurt to form local clubs and put a little effort into this trail advocacy thing. You are going to need allies, believe me. P4B screwed you in SD County. Decision makers came to us for our opinion. SDMBA stated that blanket bans are the result of lazy ass bureaucrats failing to put forth the effort to review an issue and make responsible decisions (actually we stated blanket bans are not acceptable and that land managers must base their decisions on facts and not emotions from trail user groups). Guess what? The electric motorized biking group never showed up. Never. Ever. You want me to advocate for you but I've never met you. I've never seen or worked with you at any trail building event. I've never seen you at any of our community outreach events. None of the land managers or politicians that I know and work with have met you but you want, you expect me, you expect my brothers and sisters across the nation that have volunteered (to invest time into a cause without any compensation) to fight and hold on to trail access, you expect, feel entitled to the privileges that we have earned, yet we have never met you.

Regardless what you think of my opinion, re-read 2bfluid's post. Very simple, very informative. From a person that has earned a seat at the table. 2bfluid has shown you the way to enlightenment.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

ding-ding-ding-ding! PLEASE.... a chicken dinner for this winner! ^^^


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

I'll only add that it takes time. An inordinate amount of time in many cases. This in addition to the excellent points made by the last few posters.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Boulder Pilot and Zbfluid speak from experience, my years of experience also align with theirs.

I think P4B and by extension, the rest of the industry scewed their chances with emtb access as well be not adopting the EU model and pretending their class system was the same. At the very least, I would have expected them to adopt the EU Pedelec standards for emtbs, and leave Class 1-3 for commuters. 

We've slowly been eroding the last anti bike holdouts in our area by constantly proving our usefulness to them. We're always engaged, always ready to help. And we have the skills, money and track record that shows we CAN help. That gets doors opened.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It still baffles me that they didn't just adopt the EU standard. FFS, what were they thinking? 750w and 20mph is a whole different animal (and really not that comparable to a human powered bike) than 250w/15mph. 

Around here, the policymakers have heard from e-bike folks - but what they've heard is basically "I spent $8k on this bike and I'm damn well going to ride it! Open trails to me!"

That's not a very persuasive argument. The advocacy work should have started 5 years ago - "I don't have this yet, but with my bad knees, it would be great if I could ride a bike on the trails with a little assist - can we talk about what might be acceptable going forward?"

Big difference, and P4B screwed over e-MTBs pretty well by trying to shortcut that process.

I think eventually it'll all work out and we'll see e-bikes sharing trails just fine all over. But it'll be a sh*tshow for the next decade sorting it out, thanks to those boneheads.

-Walt


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Boulder Pilot said:


> 2bfluid concisely and clearly lays out the formula for effective advocacy and in my opinion an explanation for the heated debate and division between mountain bikers and electric motorized bikers.
> 
> As a mountain biker and an advocate, I am very disappointed to read/hear of mountain bikers supporting and/or promoting blanket bans on electric motorized bikes. Mountain bikers have been and still face oppressive management actions and are denied trail access due to decisions based upon emotions, influence and everything else but an honest review of facts.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to quote this because I respect Boulder Pilot and everything he has done for the SD MTB scene, this is a fantastic post. For those guys on this site who firmly believe in the montra "eBikes are coming get used to it", please be reasonable and read very carefully what Boulder Posted here.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Boulder Pilot said:


> You want me to advocate for you but I've never met you. I've never seen or worked with you at any trail building event. I've never seen you at any of our community outreach events. None of the land managers or politicians that I know and work with have met you but you want, you expect me, you expect my brothers and sisters across the nation that have volunteered (to invest time into a cause without any compensation) to fight and hold on to trail access, you expect, feel entitled to the privileges that we have earned, yet we have never met you.


Kinda harsh there buddy, I know I don't walk up to people and say hello my name is figofspee and I ride pedal assist bikes. People are programmed to be quite hateful towards the pedal assisters especially those who exclusively ride unassisted bikes. I wouldn't want someone to advocate for my interests unless they felt the oppression I faced was wrong, and they too know what it is like to be unfairly oppressed. If I see someone wrongly oppressed, I speak out against it.

You make some good suggestions about showing up and participating in community discussions. Trail loss is common because 99.9999 percent of all cyclists do not do that.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

figofspee said:


> Kinda harsh there buddy, I know I don't walk up to people and say hello my name is figofspee and I ride pedal assist bikes. People are programmed to be quite hateful towards the pedal assisters especially those who exclusively ride unassisted bikes. I wouldn't want someone to advocate for my interests unless they felt the oppression I faced was wrong, and they too know what it is like to be unfairly oppressed. If I see someone wrongly oppressed, I speak out against it.
> 
> You make some good suggestions about showing up and participating in community discussions. Trail loss is common because 99.9999 percent of all cyclists do not do that.


Exclusion from trail systems is not "oppression" if it were then every trail user would be "oppressed". Histrionics aside, maybe you could be the singular individual that organizes a regional E-motorbike advocacy group since you are so impassioned and "oppressed"?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, if you want to win allies and convince LMs, avoid the "oppression" theme at all costs. 

I'm not "oppressed" because I can't ride my dirtbike at the local park. I'm not oppressed because I have to stay on the trail and not just make my own anywhere I want. And so on.

Public lands have rules for a reason. I personally think that with a few intelligent tweaks to how we use the trails, e-bikes will fit in just fine. But getting there won't happen if e-bike proponents come off as lunatics.

-Walt


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Unfair, unsubstantiated, and irrational restrictions on trail access are a form of oppression, but I agree that is a loaded term when you look at the typical context of oppression. This thread has oppression in the title, but I am open for a substitution. 

When dealing with Government figures, I have found that sprinkling in mild hyperbole can make your statements have greater impact, as it signals you mean business and potential lawsuit. Coming off as a lunatic can help you get what you want sometimes, just ask my former girlfriends.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

figofspee said:


> Coming off as a lunatic can help you get what you want sometimes.


Not very often and your girlfriend has something you want.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> Not very often and your girlfriend has something you want.


And note "former" girlfriends. Maybe being a lunatic didn't work in the long run.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

figofspee said:


> Unfair, unsubstantiated, and irrational restrictions on trail access are a form of oppression, but I agree that is a loaded term when you look at the typical context of oppression. This thread has oppression in the title, but I am open for a substitution.
> 
> When dealing with Government figures, I have found that sprinkling in mild hyperbole can make your statements have greater impact, as it signals you mean business and potential lawsuit. Coming off as a lunatic can help you get what you want sometimes, just ask my former girlfriends.


Hoping that this is the prevailing thought process among e-motorbikers moving forward.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

At this point in my life I have to have sat through 50 or 60 city council or open space committee meetings. There are lunatics. Lots of them. There are occasionally lawsuits threatened by lunatics. 

Those people do not get what they want, nor do the LMs/politicians pay any attention to them. 

Again, being reasonable and polite (and patient) is your best bet. 

-Walt


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Yep, they walk among us. I've had LMs tell me of emails they've gotten from people who want to ban bikes relating how a mtb rider hit them, broke their pelvis, then jumped off their bike to beat them up for good measure. Ofc, they can't produce anything to substantiate it. "Um, yeah, I just went home and it healed up".

The best way to be politely ignored is to start making demands, have at it though.


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## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

Honey, not vinegar.

Participation, not apathy.

It really isn't that hard.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

bankerboy said:


> Honey, not vinegar.
> 
> Participation, not apathy.
> 
> It really isn't that hard.


Do you mean to say the mantra "eBikes are coming, get used to it" is not going to work with those who make the rules?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

City of San Diego has already ruled them as the same usage rules as a mountain bike. I see them almost every ride now.

Problem is in a city like SD, there are so many congruent properties that don't allow the use, a rider is most likely riding on authorized/unauthorized lands in every ride. I have no issues with the bikes. It would be nice if all shops were responsible in educating the user. It would be helpful in the encounter realm.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

bankerboy said:


> City of San Diego has already ruled them as the same usage rules as a mountain bike. I see them almost every ride now.


That sucks, I'm a diehard lifelong mountain biker and now I'm sort of forced to being opposed to them. Mountain bikes that is.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

bankerboy said:


> It would be nice if all shops were responsible in educating the user. It would be helpful in the encounter realm.


This is a major part of the problem, anyone can sell these bikes and they can be had shipped to ones door from an online vendor. The guys selling them at a local shop are not going to lose a sale by informing the potential customer that they could be off-limits in many of the trails available to them, so they just keep quiet about it, and the online vendors certainly are not going to be handing out "where can I ride my eBike" guides to customers.


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## CycleKrieg (Dec 19, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> The guys selling them at a local shop are not going to lose a sale by informing the potential customer that they could be off-limits in many of the trails available to them, so they just keep quiet about it, and the online vendors certainly are not going to be handing out "where can I ride my eBike" guides to customers.


True story: I was at a dealer camp with a friend who is a dealer and the rep from a major biking brand was asked about access issues after an eMTB presentation. He said to questioner: "Your job is to sell the bike, not find out where the customer can ride them."

Two months later, that same rep was an an advocacy meeting and spent at least 20mins going on how much that brand cared for trail access and how they knew that here in the Midwest there were few places to ride legally. He profusely went on and on how much that manufacturer tells its dealers to be honest with customers about access.


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

CycleKrieg said:


> True story: I was at a dealer camp with a friend who is a dealer and the rep from a major biking brand was asked about access issues after an eMTB presentation. He said to questioner: "Your job is to sell the bike, not find out where the customer can ride them."
> 
> Two months later, that same rep was an an advocacy meeting and spent at least 20mins going on how much that brand cared for trail access and how they knew that here in the Midwest there were few places to ride legally. He profusely went on and on how much that manufacturer tells its dealers to be honest with customers about access.


Please name the brand. I'd like to make sure to not buy their products.

Check out the frontlines podcast for more of the same BTW. I think it was trek they quoted as saying they'd just sell them and let the land managers sort it out.


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> That sucks, I'm a diehard lifelong mountain biker and now I'm sort of forced to being opposed to them. Mountain bikes that is.


I hear you, and sadly, between ebikers insisting a motor isn't, and DH riders on multi use trails riding like they're one way trails, I can see where I'd rather see no bikes on a trail. When avid mountain bikers who build, maintain, and donate to trail orgs say things like that, it doesn't bode well for other user groups wanting to share trails with us.

I'm not even opposed to ebikes. I'm only opposed to pretending a motor isn't a motor and that it's a nonmotorized bicycle.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ACree said:


> I'm not even opposed to ebikes. I'm only opposed to pretending a motor isn't a motor and that it's a nonmotorized bicycle.


Same here, I've nothing against ebikes or people who ride them but I'd like there to be motor-free areas without also excluding bicycles. Oh well, c'est la vie.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

They are coming... The horror!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> They are coming... The horror!


Not any time soon.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> They are coming... The horror!


Never mind, the battery died.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

figofspee said:


> Unfair, unsubstantiated, and irrational restrictions on trail access are a form of oppression, but I agree that is a loaded term when you look at the typical context of oppression. This thread has oppression in the title, but I am open for a substitution.
> 
> When dealing with Government figures, I have found that sprinkling in mild hyperbole can make your statements have greater impact, as it signals you mean business and potential lawsuit. Coming off as a lunatic can help you get what you want sometimes, just ask my former girlfriends.


 Hmmm, good luck with that approach. In the past, mt bikers have done trail work, advocated for acceptance, showed up for meetings to present their views and collaborated with other trail users. Oppression? Not. Just ride those e bikes where motos are legal.


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## trailnimal (Mar 1, 2004)

Peasant Woman: Well, how'd you become king, then?
[Angelic music plays...]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I am your king.
Dennis: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Arthur: Be quiet!
Dennis: You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
Arthur: Shut up!
Dennis: I mean, if I went around saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Arthur: [grabs Dennis] Shut up! Will you shut up?!
Dennis: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: [shakes Dennis] Shut up!
Dennis: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!
Arthur: Bloody Peasant!
Dennis: Ooh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?


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