# get'n past my overprotective feeling for "my" trail



## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

Hey all, I built a trail and now it seems I'm a little too attached, it bugs me when people tear it up, ride it wet, or even when people I don't know ride it (yes I'm overdone and I know it, but having said that it's a FR trail with only about fifteen people or so knowing about it). How have you guys gotten over the fact that people will treat your stuff poorly (the minority of riders of course) and may not even consider the many many hours of effort that went into building it.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Welcome to the club wasea04!

I think that's the first lesson succesful trail builders learn. You can bring the trail into the world but once it's turned over you lose control and now it's the riders who determine the line. You can't make riders do what they don't want/have to do.

A skilled trail builder can control the line to a degree by designing it so the rhythm and the line match very well, but a bike trail is a still trail left by a bike. Some of the fun is watching how your trails evolve over time, learning to hit the moving target.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

If you want to keep it private, you have to own the land (and probably post guards).


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

Thanks for the therapeutic words, I guess I should view it in a good way, people are really stoked about what I've built, it's just hard to let her go..........now I know what's it like to have a teenage daughter who's just begun dating


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

Haha great thread...

When it's all said and done the sloppy and creative riders are what gives you more experience and skill as a trail builder really. Getting creative for the fixes, re-routes, or more wisdom when planning the next one, more notches on the belt.

That being said it's always more gratifying to see someone running your trail how you envisioned.

But yah fixing your attitude of accepting that a trail is never truly yours will keep you from pulling your hair out for sure. And it's actually a better place to be to enjoy the fruits of your labor.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

wasea04 said:


> Thanks for the therapeutic words, I guess I should view it in a good way, people are really stoked about what I've built, it's just hard to let her go..........now I know what's it like to have a teenage daughter who's just begun dating


The observations you make about how it ends up and the strategies you develop to mitigate it are called "expertise."


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## emptybe_er (Jan 15, 2006)

I know exactly how you feel. . . you will forever be mending and modifying the trail and its features. As time passes, not only will you learn where the "ideal" line is but also where work is necessary to divert water following rain. It truly is a labor of love.


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

I want to be able to just walk away and not care so much, you know just let it become whatever, and just ride it, but as you all know it's easier said than done.........one thing for sure is that it's made me a much more respectful rider on the trails!


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

*It's acceptable to demand some respect*

It's hard to find the right balance. It's OK to be irritated with people who are abusing the trail and causing you unneeded work. It's not OK to get bent because people don't ride the lines in exactly the way that you envisioned.

Thanks for your work!

Walt


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## freaknunu (Jan 19, 2009)

dude i get the same feeling when jack-offs of 4 wheelers grind through my trail and trash the place with empty cans! I'm totally there man.


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*I hear ya!*

It is hard to let go. I get irked watching single speeders stand on their pedals, spin out and rut up the smallest little up hills. If only they could downshift.  And these are my friends!

I get irked watching my nephew tripod through a section and knock babyhead rocks loose.

Just one horse took the trail and made post hole sized divets on the trail. effer!

I nice step-up, berm, roller gets chopped up with pedal strikes. WTF, take a differ line.

 Feels great to vent.


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

*Lovin' the responses*

Here's stepup I'm working on, it feels like i'm building the great wall of china I had to cut into the embankment to get it level, then I've been stacking rocks, what you see is four hours worth from today dirt it and hopefully hit it saturday:thumbsup: This is going to be very snobbish, but the area where I built the trail is ten miles from the nearest riding area so that the xc crowd and learners won't get hurt........or damage my labors.....WELL, some xc people and newb's have been riding the trail which has no ride arounds and are rolling off the side of my lips and around drops, this is a FR trail built as FR trail, I'm gettin anoyed, what do they get outta riding it when there's only a mile and a half, and of that only like 30% percent is do-able for them Ok i'll stop being a jerk. If i catch 4wheelers on singletrack I flip:madmax: Motorcylces are bad too:nono:

Nevermind about the pics, couldn't get 'em sized right. sorry


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*yes, rolling off lips..grrrrr*

why would they do that. My trail is a XC trail. We are lucky enough to have many natural features that can be alternative lines. But still...........


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

I need to quit being lame, I even get annoyed when own friends hit jumps weird and mess up the lips, I also ride XC and in fact I talked my dad up a step up the other day when he came to see my work, not bad for a 52 year old on a Turner Sultan.


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## no nancies (Jan 18, 2005)

*Keep on building*

A bunch of us here in NW WA really enjoy building xc. Just being in the outdoors makes it good, along with bs'n with your buddies. I don't care if our trails get used by caring and contributing riders. We all know the time it takes to put them in. I am totally hard lined about the poaching elitists who state they only have time to ride and would rather contribute monitarily. How much is a trail worth per foot? A ton in my mind. We only want participation. If you don't contribute by physical work, stay off.
Here is where we track what we are up to. Many pages of pics if you go back. Cheers to those who do it.:thumbsup: 
http://www.kitsapmtb.com


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

Funny..........I have feelings of "ownership" for my local trails, and "ownership empathy" for the ones that are not.


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## Trevor_S (Jun 25, 2007)

no nancies said:


> I am totally hard lined about the poaching elitists who state they only have time to ride and would rather contribute monitarily. How much is a trail worth per foot? A ton in my mind. We only want participation. If you don't contribute by physical work, stay off.


How do you combat that attitude ? The problem seems endemic, we suffer the same thing here. How do you get them to keep off ?

Local trail pics here


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Ok. How about this? I spent 3 years building 10 miles of easy singletrack for the local middle school (10 to 13 year old) bike club to ride on. Mostly on my own. One of the fellows who put in a little time has claimed the trails as his ("come and ride the trails I built"). Now there is a group of 20 or so adults riding 2-3 times a week as well as hikers, dog walkers, and horse riders all out trashing those trails. Not one of them has lifted a finger to help or put in a cent towards the money I (and the bike club) have spent for tools and materials. I asked the fellow to ask his friends to help out in some manner. He said, "Oh no, I couldn't do that." I guess he's afraid they won't play with him anymore.

I got permission from the landowner to build the trails for the kids but they won't restrict access to the land. They are a logging company and it's their company policy.

I just walked and left them to it. I'm back working on my private trails. Only trail builders are allowed on them and this policy is strictly enforced. I can't tell you how I enforce it but if you live near me and your loved one doesn't come home from a bike ride... don't expect them to.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

no nancies said:


> A bunch of us here in NW WA really enjoy building xc. Just being in the outdoors makes it good, along with bs'n with your buddies. I don't care if our trails get used by caring and contributing riders. We all know the time it takes to put them in. I am totally hard lined about the poaching elitists who state they only have time to ride and would rather contribute monitarily. How much is a trail worth per foot? A ton in my mind. We only want participation. If you don't contribute by physical work, stay off.
> Here is where we track what we are up to. Many pages of pics if you go back. Cheers to those who do it.:thumbsup:


 Also a few people who helped at Colonnade expressed not wanting to help in any endeavors in the peninsula from the attitude you guys give. Not that this means much considering many Freeride riders raised their nose to the project in the beginning as XC riders did towards the end. People are pretty quirky haha...

It's difficult to equate volunteer help in manpower/donations, and it's difficult to argue the progress you have made. But it's increasingly difficult for me to support or want to participate in an atmosphere of trail work being something one has to do.

It's a flawed notion. Not to say that i don't understand the argument, hell i can empathize. And your argument of value of trail build has legs, but what do we really win. The people who do donate get pissed and stop donating, so we neither have workers, or extra funds... So this means you just add work to the workers who are already out there, as well as effort in being creative to make up for the inequities.



Trail Ninja said:


> Ok. How about this? I spent 3 years building 10 miles of easy singletrack for the local middle school (10 to 13 year old) bike club to ride on. Mostly on my own. One of the fellows who put in a little time has claimed the trails as his ("come and ride the trails I built"). Now there is a group of 20 or so adults riding 2-3 times a week as well as hikers, dog walkers, and horse riders all out trashing those trails. Not one of them has lifted a finger to help or put in a cent towards the money I (and the bike club) have spent for tools and materials. I asked the fellow to ask his friends to help out in some manner. He said, "Oh no, I couldn't do that." I guess he's afraid they won't play with him anymore.
> 
> I got permission from the landowner to build the trails for the kids but they won't restrict access to the land. They are a logging company and it's their company policy.
> 
> I just walked and left them to it. I'm back working on my private trails. Only trail builders are allowed on them and this policy is strictly enforced. I can't tell you how I enforce it but if you live near me and your loved one doesn't come home from a bike ride... don't expect them to.


A thankless task, looking at trailbuilding as an avenue as a recruitment tool for respect and assistance is not easy if you take this attitude.

The trail is not about YOU. It's about providing a service, the accomplishment is the true reward. As well as the bonds you create through the experience.

There is always more to the story, but i would encourage builders who are looking for more help to examine the way they run crew. Just like in a ride lead there are those who are hammerheads and those who are stragglers. Some feed off pressure, others don't. If you recognize this, you can reach out to more volunteers and help them discover the value of stewardship. It's not easy, and yes the message is the same, but being more dynamic in the delivery of the message is the key.

Will this convert everybody?

No, this is not a perfect world. Do i recognize what you guys are doing is important. Yes. Do i recognize the importance of you as individuals integral to enriching mountain bike opportunities. Yes. Is "everyone" receptive to this being forced down their throats. No.

When people stopped at the park and thanked me it was nice, but the real prize to me is knowing people are enjoying the trails. That trumps all other emotions including the negative ones. If trails aren't being built for the public to enjoy, then on a volunteer level, what's the point.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

In the case of the middle school trails, I built them for a very specific purpose. I see no harm in asking people to help out especially with the attitude that a lot of trails users have that trails occur naturally and don't require any maintenance. Or that someone is being paid to look after the trails. I've never pushed the point on any trail system I've built or worked on. 

I've done tons of other volunteer trail building and the trails are being used in exactly the same manner as the school trails. I expect it and it doesn't bother me. It was the attitude of the other builder that bothered me on this one. He used my hard work to advance himself socially. Try to look at it this way. You painted the Mona Lisa to give to your Mom. Someone that loaned you the brushes comes along and puts the painting in a gallery and tells people "I drew that."

I don't build for the glory or the money and I actually don't care if nobody rides the trails I build. I don't want volunteers to help me and I don't want to advance the cause of mountain biking. I want to be alone, outdoors, in the forests of Vancouver Island, building bike trails. Yeah, I have a bad attitude. Everybody has some kind of bad attitude about something.


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

I feel you Trail Ninja, one of my friends was in a bike shop here in town when some guy neither of us has ever met started claiming he'd built the stuff we'd done (we built every last inch of it), he called his bluff and the guy was pretty humiliated


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

Trail Ninja said:


> Yeah, I have a bad attitude. Everybody has some kind of bad attitude about something.


Haha admitting you have a problem is the first step towards solving it. haha, now before you want to punch me through your computer monitor, i just want to say that i don't really blame you for feeling that way. My post shouldn't diminish the fact that this guy you describe sounds like a real cheeseball.


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## no nancies (Jan 18, 2005)

*Ya gotta work somewhere*

Trevor; cool pics. Dirty. Good looking trail builders.
I am never caring if someone feels hurt in our pc world on the fact that trails don't build or maintain themselves. I laugh at riders I know who think when they put in 3 hours a year they are good. You need to physically contribute somewhere. The group who worked on the Colonade in Seattle put in a ton of work there. It's a bike park under a freeway. If you look at that clubs page and who signs up for work events, it's a very small group, same names, usually under 5 people. And they claim a 900 member club. I actually contribute bucks to them. I don't agree with all they do, never had. I can have a different view.
Mine is tough xc riding, epics, adventure stuff. I won't be misty at this end if someone feels we are being mean and need to go tell their mommy.


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*re claim jumping.*

 
that happened to our little trail building group. Third year into our trail a guy showed up twice, leaned on his tool mostly, left early. He was nice enough.

A month later I met a guy riding the same trail. He tells me his friend (the tool leaner guy) was heading up this whole trail building project. My jaw dropped. I didn't even know how to respond initially. I did manage to say that there must be some other trail being confused with our trail, as so-and-so has only a total of 3 hours in this project. I gave the guy my name, number, email and said be sure to tell tool leaner guy he met me. I also invited him to a big party our new bike club was throwing the next week.

That was weirdest experience. It hurt in a subtle sort of way. It doesn't make any sense to argue with a stranger over who built a trail. It sure seemed like the record should be set straight though. I still can't believe someone would be so insecure that they would make such a false claim.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

no nancies said:


> Trevor; cool pics. Dirty. Good looking trail builders.
> I am never caring if someone feels hurt in our pc world on the fact that trails don't build or maintain themselves. I laugh at riders I know who think when they put in 3 hours a year they are good. You need to physically contribute somewhere. The group who worked on the Colonade in Seattle put in a ton of work there. It's a bike park under a freeway. If you look at that clubs page and who signs up for work events, it's a very small group, same names, usually under 5 people. And they claim a 900 member club. I actually contribute bucks to them. I don't agree with all they do, never had. I can have a different view.
> Mine is tough xc riding, epics, adventure stuff. I won't be misty at this end if someone feels we are being mean and need to go tell their mommy.


Again the big picture. The website reveals a small percentage of the people that actually showed to help there. The only reason i posted on the sight was to let people know i was going to be working there. Really 80% of the people who helped there never bothered signing up on the board.
As far as pc... Do you have an office job or are you like me where you work in construction? You have to be vocal and assertive and sometimes aggressive when working on big construction jobs, but you gotta know when to shut the hell up and get along too. 
Never said you can't have a different view, this has nothing to do with Evergreen. Believe me i don't agree with everything Evergreen comes up with, that's got nothing to do with it.

You won't be misty, but the tone of yours and others messages springboard a negative tone that interferes indirectly with the work of others in the area. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not so....

For IF you truly believe that doing "volunteer" work should be a "requirement", knowing that there are "pc" people that are turned off and will not help with money or labor to IMBA, Evergreen WHBC, PUMP, FTTRC or whoever. Well then isn't it like shooting ourselves in the foot to stand on a bully pulpit and preach advocacy like it's old timey hell or heaven religion?

If i didn't believe that tone didn't screw me up in the past or might hinder me with any future worthwhile projects i'd like to back including ones you may work on, i wouldn't bother being in this discussion with you.


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## 29buzz (Nov 5, 2004)

Its hard to get past-a trail is like a living growing thing-a garden of sorts.Our local-i put in stuff almost 20rs ago-its still sweet!This past weekend i helped the new stewards with a gate to repel the atv's-seems signs and warnings arnt enough!I was back in the day always fighting these cretins-i thinks these are their new brood!
I remember when V-brakes first came out-the skidding through turns and switchbacks-i saw more damage than in the years before in one spring!But how can you teach people to ride?You cant!You learn to just let it flow past ya.You build trails that can withstand the riding of the area-or try to anyway.Im glad now that other people "have"my trails now.
I can ride them instead of build them.Theys all grows up now....
Bz


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Skookum said:


> Haha admitting you have a problem is the first step towards solving it. haha, now before you want to punch me through your computer monitor, i just want to say that i don't really blame you for feeling that way. My post shouldn't diminish the fact that this guy you describe sounds like a real cheeseball.


Who says it's a problem? I like my attitude. 

No, really though. I get where harping and nagging for volunteers can do more harm than good. I also realize that there aren't going to be a lot of fanatics like me in a town this small. That's why I was OK with walking away from that project. They have enough good trails for the kids to learn on and I was able to get a couple of them interested in looking after them. It's funny that the 11 year kids are more responsible about trail maintenance than the adults that use those trails. Also, those kids will be teenagers soon and they'll "own" those trails AND they'll be armed with machete's and axes. I expect the whole thing will sort itself out to my satisfaction in about 5 years.


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## freaknunu (Jan 19, 2009)

hey I've been building trails in the land near where I live for about a year now and I'm constantly having problems with ATV's but that's not my point
I was wondering if ANYONE had an efficient way of getting rid of those tiny little stumps that seem to stay and grow after you chop the sapling down
(I've come close to popping a tire)
Any suggestions would be most appreciated!


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

freaknunu said:


> hey I've been building trails in the land near where I live for about a year now and I'm constantly having problems with ATV's but that's not my point
> I was wondering if ANYONE had an efficient way of getting rid of those tiny little stumps that seem to stay and grow after you chop the sapling down
> (I've come close to popping a tire)
> Any suggestions would be most appreciated!


Cable wire and a come along. Dig around the root and see if you can loop a hook something around it and crank it out of there. Good luck though, uprooting trees by hand is not easy work.


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## freaknunu (Jan 19, 2009)

Skookum said:


> Cable wire and a come along. Dig around the root and see if you can loop a hook something around it and crank it out of there. Good luck though, uprooting trees by hand is not easy work.


yeah I know tell me about it I've been hitting the stumps dead on with the axe an breaking it up an picking out pieces but I keep thinking to myself that there has to be an easier way to do this!!!


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

You probably don't have to dig down too far to cut the roots below ground if it's just a sapling. The deeper you dig the thinner the roots. You can sometimes just pop them out with a couple of swings of a pulaski.


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*for saplings*

If they are saplings use a long handled lopper. They cost $20 and consider it a cost to build.

When creating trail stick the lopper ends beneath the soil and clip the sapling off below ground level. It is bad for the tool sure, but I have a dedicated lopper for trail building, It is still fine after 5 years.

For existing trail . As the trail gets ridden the little stumps not cut below ground level become more pronounced as the trail gets compressed. Walk the trail and and use the loppers in the same fashion.

The loppers work fine for sapling diameters a bit over an inch.


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## Loren_ (Dec 3, 2006)

These work pretty good at removing small saplings AND their roots, although they aren't as easy to carry as loppers:

http://www.weedwrench.com/


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## Breakurnees (Dec 13, 2007)

X2 Weedwrench is awesome.


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## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

*You gotta become ZEN with it!!*

Wasea,

First off, you guys post weekly shots of your trail on these forums and everyone knows you guys live in St. George, so it's not like you are exactly keeping these a secret. You want to limit the numbers of "non-diggin" riders to hit your trail, then you've got to stop looking for e-pats on the back on the fourms. Otherwise, understand that folks will find it based on the pics with background scenery, etc. (hell I've seen those cell towers in 1/2 the shots!). We've got it much easier in the PNW, because every shot is in dark woods.....

Second, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask folks you see on the trail to show it some respect by not rolling lips, etc. You can be tactful in your requests and let them know how much man-hours go into those so they understand what you're talking about. With that said, you've got to know that folks that ride your trail might not have the skills or cajones to hit everything. As such, building ridearounds on bigger moves needs to happen unless you want your jumps and trannies to get trashed.

In the end, I have admitted to myself that I build bike trails for fun and my own personal gratification. That's been a good thing for me to become Zen with in the past year or so. My dogs get exercise and I get to explore through woods with the sole purpose of putting the best line between points A and B&#8230;&#8230;which is like putting a puzzle together at times. Beyond having the killer time in the woods with some of the coolest folks I've ever met, we get something to f'ing RIP after the trails are built. I'm sorry, but folks that don't lend a hand, don't get THAT concept and that's fine with me&#8230;..there's a bond when you're crafted something from nothing with a group of folks. Folks certainly take a sense of pride and ownership and that's why I've gotten my knickers in a twist - at times - over certain (trivial) items&#8230;..trivial in the grand scheme of things.

As for riding other people's trail, I can say that I rarely (if ever) roll up on dudes in the middle of work and not offer to lend a hand. Even if it means 15 minutes in the middle of my ride&#8230;.who cares? Those dudes are usually ready to get a much-needed break and the stoke gets even better if I pull out a tallboy of Highlife and pass it their way while I'm moving rocks or dirt. Talk about building goodwill with guys that enjoy what we enjoy doing!

These days, I don't solicit random dudes for help if I'm working on something, but if they want to help me move dirt or grab some buckets of rocks, it'd go a long way towards me starting the next berm, jump, feature, or benchcut that we ALL get to shralp. Four riders stopping for 15 minutes to help me move dirt really makes a big difference in completing a project. Folks that understand that will offer to help - even if they don't truly want to at that particular time. Most of the time, I decline their offer anyway, but the gesture is appreciated nonetheless and I let them know that. Folks that don't offer or throw out the "thanks for the effort" comment, I'm totally cordial to them with zero attitude, but, I've got work to do and I'm back at it as soon as they pass with little chit-chat.

Cheers,
EB


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## Trevor_S (Jun 25, 2007)

no nancies said:


> Trevor; cool pics. Dirty. Good looking trail builders.


Thanks lol..

Anyway, I walked away yesterday, been working on the trails for about 3 years, with very few volunteers.

While I notice some in here build trials by themselves, I find I can't build the exciting trails I want to by myself. I often need help to move a large boulder out of the way or move a large boulder into the way or a large log out of the way or into the way etc etc and am worried that the network would have devolved into a series of boring trails. Let alone my inabilty to contruct anything like the stuff we did mid last year here
https://trevors.smugmug.com/gallery/6042963_qiiBo#378470181_JYbLq

I just can't do that sort of thing by myself.

Hopefully now I have nothing to do with it anymore, others may step up and keep the momentum going.

I even had to do the trail map myself.. lol.. had to dig out Adobe Illustrator for dummies and give it a go, not very professional but better then nothing.


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## WaveDude (Jan 14, 2004)

For the tiny little stumps left after cutting the sapling down...you shouldn't be cutting them off at ground level. Cut it about 4' tall. Then cut a circle around it and pull it out roots and all--using that 4' tall stump as a lever.

We had a bunch of noob "trail builders" come through and left 2-6" pungee sticks poking up everywhere on serveral re-routes. They slice sidewalls and are dangerous if you fall on one. All they did was create a lot more work for whoever goes through and cleans it up since the only option now is to dig them up--there's little to grab onto for leverage now.


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

*Yeah you're right*



ebxtreme said:


> Wasea,
> 
> First off, you guys post weekly shots of your trail on these forums and everyone knows you guys live in St. George, so it's not like you are exactly keeping these a secret. You want to limit the numbers of "non-diggin" riders to hit your trail, then you've got to stop looking for e-pats on the back on the fourms. Otherwise, understand that folks will find it based on the pics with background scenery, etc. (hell I've seen those cell towers in 1/2 the shots!). We've got it much easier in the PNW, because every shot is in dark woods.....
> 
> ...


I need to find some balance on how I feel about the trail.


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## markatshermanbranch (Dec 24, 2007)

I didn't help build "my trail" because I didn't even know what a mountain bike was when it was first being built, but I've become "attached" to it (after many hours riding and maintaining it), and I feel downright violated when someone comes out and trashes it.

To most people, it's just dirt. To me, it's almost a member of the family.


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## BigAirGar1 (Feb 24, 2008)

ebxtreme said:


> Wasea,
> 
> First off, you guys post weekly shots of your trail on these forums and everyone knows you guys live in St. George, so it's not like you are exactly keeping these a secret. You want to limit the numbers of "non-diggin" riders to hit your trail, then you've got to stop looking for e-pats on the back on the fourms. Otherwise, understand that folks will find it based on the pics with background scenery, etc. (hell I've seen those cell towers in 1/2 the shots!). We've got it much easier in the PNW, because every shot is in dark woods.....
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: 
Could not have said it better myself.

In my early days of building no one could ride my trails. Now all can with ride-arounds, care for the enviro, irrigation, ect.

The other thing I highly recommend is building your own signage and posting it in not so visible spots. NO POACHING this way.

I actually roto-zip the trail name onto a piece of scrap and over time it weathers in and looks completely natural.

Zen Baby Zen.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

If the features are built on private land with the consent of the land owner then you can claim total control over who uses it. If it's built illegally on private or public land you have no right to who uses it or expect that it won't be removed by the land managers or owners. If it's built legally on public land with the cooperation of land managers then you should work with the managers on some sort of solution that addresses your concerns about people who may be not using the features the way they where intended to be used.


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## rfeather (Aug 22, 2006)

*Opposite problem-maybe you can help*

I suppose I'd feel the same as you. I've put hundreds of hours on trails near my home in spite of my wife's protests. I'd hate to see them ripped up. I actually have the opposite problem, my trails suffer from lack of use. I live in a remote corner of a remote corner of UP Michigan (1.5 miles east of Redridge, MI), there are great public bike trails closer to town, and the motorized vehicle riders have hundreds of miles of logging roads to explore. I only know of one person who rides my trails, no one else knows where to look for them. I've lead groups on the trails, but no one has told me they have come back on their own. 
So, my trails take a long time to harden up after I build them and weeds grow in faster than I can ride them down. The worst thing that happens is when the area gets logged and the big equipment makes deep ditches, tops get left on the trail, and fortunately, rarely, big stumps with their root ball get left on the trail. Each section is only logged once every ten years or more so I make repairs and re-routes and get over it.
Everyone who rides my trails, loves them, so feel free to invite yourself up. You can camp in my orchard (no spray).


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

rfeather said:


> I only know of one person who rides my trails, no one else knows where to look for them. I've lead groups on the trails, but no one has told me they have come back on their own.


You might want to consider doing a map of your trails, printing up a bunch of them and circulating them to bike stores, outdoors stores, small hardware stores. You can really pump em out low budget off your computer, have the stores sell them for a couple bucks and grab a buck off the top for your troubles.


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## mtbikernc69 (Mar 23, 2004)

This is a cross post but it is relevant here as well. Admin. Please don't delete this!!!!!
The relevant part is highlighted below...

"Oh boy. This was thread is too good to keep my comments to myself. After having designed, built and continue to maintain 4 miles of single track in the Charlotte/LKNM area I can honestly say there is some truth in everyone's posts on this thread.
I will give a bit of advice to the OP and his band of trail builders...

1. Accept that a lot/most people that ride do NOT do trail work whatsoever. By my estimates over that last 10 years, 10% or less of riders. ( And that's high.)

2. This time of year (winter) soil types with a lot of clay, especially red clay here in NC do not drain. Period. Don't care how much out slope or drainage you do, it will not counteract the freeze/thaw cycle. That's freeze, ground expands, is solid, can ride, then thaw, ground is now aerated and wet = MUD. The only thing I've found that will counteract it is crush'n'run packed with a gas powered tamper or rock armoring.

*3. People are going to ride when it's wet and muddy. Some out of ignorance, some out of a "I don't give a crap" attitude. Accept it, cuss, swear and get over it. It is what it is. (Yes I have gone through this whole process.) And you'll be a lot happier and less stressed in the long run.*

4. Realize that even though the trail looks torn up, Mother Nature has a wonderful way of repairing/healing herself and in the spring you may realize that it's just not as bad as it looks right now. NOTE: This is still no excuse to ride wet, muddy trails. This comes from 4 years of watching and maintaining a trail I designed and built. Making observations about what works/worked and what doesn't/didn't. It can be vastly different for two trails that are geographically close.

So if closure is not an option, look at doing some armoring. If that still doesn't work try to educate riders why NOT to ride wet/muddy trails. If all else fails, screw it and don't worry about it until the spring.

Hope this helps.

Mark


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## arcticsp2003 (Sep 27, 2008)

rfeather said:


> I live in a remote corner of a remote corner of UP Michigan (1.5 miles east of Redridge, MI)


where are they at? I didn't know there were any out there. I'm from chassell.


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## rfeather (Aug 22, 2006)

*where my trails are at*

The trails and the connecting logging roads are in an area bounded by the snowmobile trail to Redridge on the east, the Beacon Hill/Toivola Rd. on the west, Freda Rd on the north side and the top of what I call Edgemere hill about 2 miles inland of the Freda Rd. on the south side.
I Had someone print me a big map once so I could draw in the trails but he never got back with copies of the finished work. We have a GPS but it doesn't work on our mac unless I added a bunch of software. A winter time aerial photo would be perfect so that the logging roads would show up. This is all complicated by the fact that I have dial up internet at home.
Rich


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## shelbster15 (Nov 5, 2008)

Hey wasea it was nice seeing you guys on the trail yesterday, if you guys on this forum havent ridin it its BA! Thanks for building the B-line alternates on some of the big stuff, its great practice building up to hitting the bigger doubles. Your group is getting so good that it looks like no one has been hitting some of the alternates(i would imagine the orignal parts of the trail before bigger stuff was built?). Our group doesnt want to pry into your trail, but we are extremely interested in maintaining and keeping it going and a secret. We did our best to fix anything that may of got moved around. I yard saled on one double but didnt mess anything up.

Wasea has built an awesome FR trail that has taken hours upon hours to build and has some great flow in areas.


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## dmonbike (Jun 26, 2006)

Guys, I do think you're missing something with people wanting to donate money instead of helping build. Yes, I would like everyone to pick up a tool and help on projects I'm working on, but the reality is it just doesn't happen. You can post signs asking for help, but you shouldn't turn down the money. Take it for use on bridges or tools or something and let people feel like they've contributed. 
My CPA, for instance, barely had time to ride because of his job and kids, but he's more than willing to do my tax stuff for me at no cost. He knows he's helping me out and I'm out there building trail he can ride. It's a good relationship.
As for letting go of a trail and letting it be...that's a little harder. I would say after it's complete you have to back off a little. maybe a year after its finished go out on a weekend and look at all the people enjoying the trail. Take the fact that even if they didn't see you do it, you've changed peoples lives for the better. They appreciate having the trail, even if they don't treat it as good as you would.


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

*mi casa is su casa*



shelbster15 said:


> Hey wasea it was nice seeing you guys on the trail yesterday, if you guys on this forum havent ridin it its BA! Thanks for building the B-line alternates on some of the big stuff, its great practice building up to hitting the bigger doubles. Your group is getting so good that it looks like no one has been hitting some of the alternates(i would imagine the orignal parts of the trail before bigger stuff was built?). Our group doesnt want to pry into your trail, but we are extremely interested in maintaining and keeping it going and a secret. We did our best to fix anything that may of got moved around. I yard saled on one double but didnt mess anything up.
> 
> Wasea has built an awesome FR trail that has taken hours upon hours to build and has some great flow in areas.


Shelbster, thanks for the props, yeah it's fun to see the progression as the older the trail the easier it is, but no, don't feel like you're prying, I built the trail with guys like y'all in mind, It's not like you were uninvited, I''ve been just short of beggin you to come ride with us We'll definitely be in touch for future rides, and thanks again for the kind words and support!!!


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## (((И))) (Feb 19, 2009)

wasea04 said:


> Hey all, I built a trail and now it seems I'm a little too attached, it bugs me when people tear it up, ride it wet, or even when people I don't know ride it (yes I'm overdone and I know it, but having said that it's a FR trail with only about fifteen people or so knowing about it). How have you guys gotten over the fact that people will treat your stuff poorly (the minority of riders of course) and may not even consider the many many hours of effort that went into building it.


i doubt that it could work with MTB trails but with dirt jumps we just chain the first set up and, BAM, no key no ride. of the 100's of hours that people put into trails riders that dont build cant and wont have a clue what its like to spend 20 hours getting something just right to come back in a couple of days to see that some one rode it too soon and its a rutted 
POS. the "locals only" attitude sucks but is also human nature, protect what you got.


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## roguebuilder (Jun 6, 2008)

^^^You can't just chain up a section of land if it's public, built illegally, etc. This only works if the land you're talking about is private. I personally don't agree with that attitude anyway... for the most part.

Two of the most valid comments in this thread were made by ebextreme and zrm.

I choose to look at it this way. The builders don't know everyone's circumstances and what they can an can't do (time & money). By the same token, most riders don't understand the builder's side of the story. Most riders (I would think most) don't have a clue about building and maintenance. They just don't know what goes into it behind the scenes.

We have been responsible for some building near me. We put a lot of effort into a once secret park... which isn't the most amazing place in the world; but, it is something. First off, secrets don't last. Second, online pics shorten the length of a secret. Instead of having a locals only view, we decided to use our energy and passion about what we'd built towards educating people.

At first the damaged lips and ruts, that showed up when it was muddy, drove me crazy. What we tried to do was talk to everyone we saw in there. We have tried to be very friendly and make it known that we built the place. We tell people to have fun and to have respect. Don't ride the dirt jumps in the mud etc. They in turn joined our side and helped to spread the word when we were not around. For the most part now, people who ride in our park know the gig and there's a positive attitude for all who ride there.

A lot of people, myself included, don't know all there is to know about trail building and maintenance. Because of our positive attitude towards all who have found our park, we have made a lot of good friends and have educated many people on what it takes to build trails and what it takes to damage trails. Most people just tell us thanks for the work and that's okay. Not everyone can help and I wouldn't want the help of some people. However, a few people have understood what it takes and have donated time, tools, hoses, etc. to which we are extremely grateful.

Life is what you make of it. Being positive goes along way for you and for others. Yes, there will always be bad apples and people who could ruin it for the rest of us; but, a positive attitude and education will do more for our sport and more to help others who aren't in the know.


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## furrykid (Feb 14, 2008)

I have had the same problem with the 'secrets' and agree that especially when the goods are good the secret won't last an instant. One thing that I had to absorb into my philosophy as a builder is that no matter how bomb proof you build each trail you build/oversee, someone sometime is going to come along and do some sort of damage. So i basically feel like all trails are an eternal work in progress, from the building evolution to how they weather both the elements and riders. That helped me to not get so irked when I have to drop everything in the middle of the day because we finally got enough rain to fix some transgression. (you cant build well here in so. utah in the dry/dust season.) All things said, we all have to let go of those feelings if we want to share our goods with anyone at all.... even the bro's....


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

29buzz said:


> Its hard to get past-a trail is like a living growing thing-a garden of sorts.Our local-i put in stuff almost 20rs ago-its still sweet!This past weekend i helped the new stewards with a gate to repel the atv's-seems signs and warnings arnt enough!I was back in the day always fighting these cretins-i thinks these are their new brood!
> I remember when V-brakes first came out-the skidding through turns and switchbacks-i saw more damage than in the years before in one spring!But how can you teach people to ride?You cant!You learn to just let it flow past ya.You build trails that can withstand the riding of the area-or try to anyway.Im glad now that other people "have"my trails now.
> I can ride them instead of build them.Theys all grows up now....
> Bz


yeah i hate that too. but eventually the skidded dirt will become a small berm. thats the way it is on local trails i ride. i see so many people skid and i give them **** on learning how to brake and not destroy the trail and their own tires. a week later a bunch of those people were complaining on the wear on their rear tire. i just sat back and laughed.


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