# New Gear Box from Germany



## othu (Aug 20, 2008)

http://www.pinion.eu/en/index.html

PINION P-1 Gearchange
-

18 fully usable gears with no overlap.

-

Constant gear ratio steps with an optimum 11.5% increment from gear to gear.

-

Overall gear ratio: 634%. This is unique and outclasses all other bicycle gearing systems.


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

The custom frame that is required in addition to the (high?) cost of the gear box would be a deal breaker for me . Look's interesting though .


----------



## Alana (Oct 17, 2007)

Where are you seeing bikes made with this?


----------



## Timbo (Jan 8, 2004)

They need to declare some weights and give an example of a full suspension frame, but so far it looks very promising. :thumbsup:

Edit: http://translate.google.com/transla...p://www.frontlinemag.net/news.php?news_id=951


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

End user pricing ?


----------



## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

looks like they may have actually adapted a boat anchor in its construction. 

Interesting design, looking forward to learning more about it.


----------



## NZPeterG (Mar 31, 2008)

Look's great love to know the price. May be a replacement for my 6 year old Rohloff speedhub.  centre weight is the way to going...


----------



## othu (Aug 20, 2008)

Endorfin G18, HT with Pinion Gear Box (the Gear Box is still a prototype, cost similar to rohloff...)

http://www.endorfinbikes.de/


----------



## NZPeterG (Mar 31, 2008)

othu said:


> Endorfin G18, HT with Pinion Gear Box (the Gear Box is still a prototype, cost similar to rohloff...)
> 
> http://www.endorfinbikes.de/


Is it going to be like rohloff lightweight hub? years to get to the market?


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Awesome*



> A pre-production prototype of the "P1"-transmission has now been recovered from a Himalayan-crossing, with over 26,000 meters without any problems. Date is a twist grip, the two opposing trains switching controls. Until the series is the screening of the rotary switch handle are again defined. was also put to even find out that inside the "P1" no planetary gear working - and it is therefore different from the Rohloff not particularly loud passages there.
> 
> When asked if could imagine the Pinion-maker and a gearbox with only 9 gears and 300% overall ratio for the use of geared bikes for bike park and downhill, the answer was: first, wanted to bring the "P1" for mass production. A variant with 9 gears in terms of complication is much simpler and therefore excluded in a further step at all.
> 
> Frontline Magazine wishes the Pinion-makers every success and the necessary perseverance to bring this exciting product to mass production.


 Looks cool. I would consider riding an IGH that was Rohloff level in durability, quality, price and weight and that was located at the middle of the bike. Whatever happened to the G-Boxx anyway?


----------



## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

me too...looks like an improvement on a rohloff if they can keep the weight the same and it doesn't affect the stifness of the frame. I just have to wonder how hard it would be for a frame maker to tool up for it.


----------



## norcom (Feb 22, 2007)

Looks similar to the Nicolai Nucleon frame gear box. Doubt this will ever be affordable. The Nicolai frames start at around $4k I think.


----------



## The Psycho (Jul 17, 2005)

Its really interesting. It's smaller than nicolai gearbox, with more gear range. I believe that is for frame makers only.


----------



## NZPeterG (Mar 31, 2008)

I would to have a Lynskey builded around a Pinion 18 speed gearbox it looks the way to go to ride in the Tour d'Afrique :eekster:


----------



## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

Wow, very cool. I want to see this in production.

This is the direction Rohloff should have headed once they established their reputation. They could have kept the same Speedhub basics, then ala Nicolai developed an open-source frame mount similar to what they did with their standardized dropouts. Based on their proven, reliable reputation I think a small percentage of Speedhub owners would have gone on to "upgrade" to a frame-mounted gearbox. Oh well...


----------



## NZPeterG (Mar 31, 2008)

Speedub.Nate said:


> Wow, very cool. I want to see this in production.
> 
> This is the direction Rohloff should have headed once they established their reputation. They could have kept the same Speedhub basics, then ala Nicolai developed an open-source frame mount similar to what they did with their standardized dropouts. Based on their proven, reliable reputation I think a small percentage of Speedhub owners would have gone on to "upgrade" to a frame-mounted gearbox. Oh well...


Can not wait until there is more about the working of the hub and to see them on sale?
It looks the way to GO!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


----------



## Wilhelm6 (Sep 23, 2005)

See this previous, two weeks (!) old thread: "Gearbox PINION P-1"


----------



## bikeisbetter (Aug 15, 2009)

Sorry to spoil the fun but this design is USELESS.

Why oh why did they make most likely the best (and very Germanic) bicycle gearbox in the world and then packed it the way it cannot be used on 99,99% of bicycle frames ever built on this planet?

This is not how you revolutionize the market.This is only how you marginalize yourself in a super tiny niche for enthusiasts who want to shell tons of money for a commodity item like a bicycle.

Then is the Rohloff Speedhub itself. If this is not going to be significantly more affordable (and we already know it won't), what is the business case for this gearbox? The Speedhub works with almost any bike in the world. This one with almost none. 100% more range? No one needs it. The 530% is already too much even in cross country MTB context, which is why so many people go with the 2x9, 2x10, 1x9 or 1x10 setups to simplify the matter. There is a good reason why Shimano never came up with a 4x9 system. Bikes that move forward on 4x gear ratio live worlds apart from the bikes that do it selecting 0,68x ratio so what's the point of a gearbox that combines these worlds? Overdoing things costs money and shrinks target customer segments.

There is more. Since Rohloff is so expensive, reliable yet swappable, owners take the hub with them when changing the frame. How is it going to be possible with this system?

So this gearbox is like a supercar. Cool to read about, not relevant in any way to the mass market, where significance happens. Why didn't they engineer the officially MTB-allowed 400% ratio, pack it into a rear hub shell and automate the production process? Maybe not to sell to many copies of it. 200 years after the bicycle had been invented, there is still only one single hub transmission fulfilling the requirements above and it costs about twice more than the median purchase price of an entire bike.

Pointless.


PS. Where is the V-Boxx, someone apparently asked. Well, look for it in the water. Dead. Anybody trying to guess why?


----------



## NZPeterG (Mar 31, 2008)

bikeisbetter said:


> Sorry to spoil the fun but this design is USELESS.
> 
> Why oh why did they make most likely the best (and very Germanic) bicycle gearbox in the world and then packed it the way it cannot be used on 99,99% of bicycle frames ever built on this planet?
> *Great design time to move forward with the way a bicycle is made!*
> ...


 Too small are gear range


----------



## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

truth in what you say....but...there will always be those who want the "ultimate". If they can keep it at the same cost or below a rohloff I bet there will be a lot of rohloff customers changing over. My example is I wanted a rohloff. I wanted a frame customised for it. I didn;t want cable ties and standard drop outs etc. If this gearbox was around, and there was a frame maker I liked who could do it, I would have proably gone that way. I agree though that their market is very niche unless they can make it cheaper and make it simple for frame makers to come tothe party.


----------



## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

Yeah, I think both you (finch2) and bikeisbetter make some valid points. There is a market for this type of design, but obviously it requires a custom (or at least a specialized) frame. 

While it addresses a recognized weakness of the weight concentration of the Speedhub, this is a bigger "problem" on full suspension rigs with respect to unsprung mass. And unfortunately, suspension designs being as technical as they are these days, a rider isn't going to have a whole slew of choices when buying a Pinion-compatible fully. I don't think many riders are going to ignore their preference of suspension design to run this gear box. 

And frankly, I haven't run a Rohloff on a full-suspension bike yet where I felt the hub's weight was compromising suspension performance.

But on a less complex hardtail, where custom sizing and craftsmanship are the key marketing factors, I can see this being an enviable custom option for many riders, especially those who have already come to appreciate a Speedhub. The *gulp* moment then is trusting the unproven Pinion gearbox with your cash. I'd have an easier time of it if it had the DNA of a Rohloff product. 

As for the gearing choices, I haven't looked over all that so am just going off what b_is_b wrote, and if that's all correct, then dang, them's some pretty silly choices.


----------



## bikecop (May 20, 2004)

that's pretty cool. some random comments:
looks like it might be retro-fitable to an existing hardtail by a builder/welder. 
I'd hate to bash it into a rock at that (unknown) price...bashplate required. 
since this takes the place of the BB, can it be adapted to Fatbikes (100mm wide)?
and the loading into the gearbox bearings seems like it would be much higher than for a hub design. 
it's got a long way to go to compete w/Rohloff in reputation.


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Holy cow, nearly forgot...*

...about the Pinion gearbox but I just got a reply to my inquiry sent 26 September 2010.



> Hello Tom,
> 
> thank you very much for your message and your interest in our gear box Pinion P-1. Before I answer I would like to apologise for the late reply; recently we have been working hard to develop our gear box to production standard. But now we have resurfaced and are available!
> 
> ...


----------



## Gearbox Rider (Jun 10, 2012)

I think this PINION is nice in a CC-bike but what about gravity or bikes you jump or ride rough tracks. How fast will destroy the gearbox, when the integrated bottom bracket get harmed by a rough track. You can not change Gearboxes like bottom brackets. I think the best is seperate gearbox and bottom bracket in that case. 

A good idea for gravity bikes is the Rohloff Bike - Tollwut Stonedigga Evo3.
It is not really known outside europe.


----------



## Wilhelm6 (Sep 23, 2005)

Gearbox Rider said:


> I think this PINION is nice in a CC-bike but what about gravity or bikes you jump or ride rough tracks. How fast will destroy the gearbox, when the integrated bottom bracket get harmed by a rough track. You can not change Gearboxes like bottom brackets. I think the best is seperate gearbox and bottom bracket in that case.
> 
> A good idea for gravity bikes is the Rohloff Bike - Tollwut Stonedigga Evo3.
> It is not really known outside europe.


Unfortunately, for now Ralf TRÖGER´s great TOLLWUT (=Rabies, Lyssa) "Steingräber" bike is not only not yet really well know outside Europe, but inside as well so far.


----------



## Wilhelm6 (Sep 23, 2005)

Wilhelm6 said:


> Unfortunately, for now Ralf TRÖGER´s great TOLLWUT (=Rabies, Lyssa) "Steingräber" bike is not only not yet really well know outside Europe, but inside as well so far.


I´m confident the level of product awareness will improve over time. :thumbsup:


----------



## NZPeterG (Mar 31, 2008)

Gearbox Rider said:


> I think this PINION is nice in a CC-bike but what about gravity or bikes you jump or ride rough tracks. How fast will destroy the gearbox, when the integrated bottom bracket get harmed by a rough track. You can not change Gearboxes like bottom brackets. I think the best is seperate gearbox and bottom bracket in that case.
> 
> A good idea for gravity bikes is the Rohloff Bike - Tollwut Stonedigga Evo3.
> It is not really known outside europe.


Why do you think that your Bottom Bracket will get *Harmed by the rough track's?* :madman:
With a PINION your BB is inclosed in oil, It will last for year's and year's!
:nono:


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

NZPeterG said:


> Why do you think that your Bottom Bracket will get *Harmed by the rough track's?* :madman:
> With a PINION your BB is inclosed in oil, It will last for year's and year's!
> :nono:


I think he's talking more about rock/impact damage - motorcycles have skid plates to protect gearbox/crankcase. Regular bike, the downtube/bb shell take the impacts vs Pinion lightweight gearbox/crankcase. I would probably make a poly skidplate/sacrificial part to protect the Pinion from rock impacts.


----------



## NZPeterG (Mar 31, 2008)

*O' Sorry, Yes a skid plate (*motorcycles have skid plates to protect gearbox/crankcase). *would be a good idea. 
I was going to build up a new World Touring with a PINNION gearbox but did not like the touring bike frame's desgined to fit a PINNION gearbox into, So i'm build up my New Bike with a Rohloff after all.
If my New Bike was for MTBing only then it would have been a PINNION.

Pete... *


----------



## Gearbox Rider (Jun 10, 2012)

Peter, 

Wadester's idea is good, but I did't meen the rotation forces. I am very sure, that the engineers of PINION who I mean based on working experience at a german sport race car manufactor have conditioned the PINION very well for torque and teeth forces during paddeling hard. I am sure it will last long because it runs in oil. There I agree complete with you. But what I ment is, think about a drivers weight of 60 - 100 kg... riding his gravity bike longtravel (200 mm) through a rock garden or droping sections or hitting big fast jumps. Know think about an Bottom Bracket for example a Race Face Atlas Crankset with Race Face Bottom Bracket. 

What do you think, how did the PINON engineers get such a stiff and stabil axle and mega stabil bearings inside the gearbox, that dynamic deformation of the axle, just because of riders weight on rough tracks, is minimalized, that the bending of the axle does not move cogwheels towards each other and the teeth tips start scuffing or pitting. I mean linear downwards forces without paddeling. When the bearings doesn't last long enough and the axle gets play / backlash then the cogwheels will rapidly get harmed and you have to send your PINION to service before that happens. 

I am sure it will last long in CC or Citybikes. But Freeride, Downhill and even Enduro is better to seperate bottom bracket from gearbox and not integrate it, until the bearing and axle are mega stiff and stable like DH Bottom Brackets of bigger Size.

I don't say it is bad, I think the PINION is brilliant, but know one should have the idea, that this perfection and accuracy of the PINION is allready gravity bike kompatible and will last long as the Tollwut or the Zerode drivetrain in a gravity DH bike. Not talking about city or CC!!!


----------



## mtbmaniac (Mar 18, 2007)

Excellent and relevant information, Gearbox R!


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Ah, dealing with pedal axle shaft bending! I note that the normal pedal axle is only supported at the bearings, and is free to move in the middle. I would think that the presence of the gears would actually limit this bending movement - at least in the direction of the other shaft. Or perhaps that's what you think would cause damage?

Looking at this picture:









It appears that the input shaft (crank axle - not shown) is actually inside the output shaft - or at least they are coaxial and support each other? Hmm. Depending on how the two bear on each other - definitely stronger. It also appears that the "cluster" gears (solid to shaft or at least directly mounted to the shaft) are on the countershaft, with the "main" shaft gears not engaged to the shaft until selected.

This would mean that the selected gear is taking both drive and bending load, all others are spreading bending load only. And have some form of bearing between them and the shaft. I could see that the center gearset would wear a little faster the ones near the ends - but I think the loads would be well distributed.


----------



## Gearbox Rider (Jun 10, 2012)

That sounds plausible. So is someone going to try?


----------

