# >More Power



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Was watching the GCN show this morning and saw that Europe will soon raise the power limit on ebikes from 250 to 1,000 watts and can also use a throttle. I'm not sure how this affects their "class" system but it isn't surprising news to me and I'm guessing the 25kph speed limit will also soon be raised as well.

Still a bicycle?


----------



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Nope


----------



## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Still?


----------



## kneecap (Dec 20, 2003)

not what I'm after at all


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

She&I said:


> Still?


Ha!


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

So is it going to be like the 250w limit and be nominal rating? 1000w nominal means you can easily get peak power at over 2000w or more.

Over 2000w of peak power at your disposal with your throttle is actually making ebikes start to sound like fun.


----------



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

So, it has taken what, 3 years of mass production of these things to already push for way more power.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

tahoebeau said:


> So is it going to be like the 250w limit and be nominal rating?


Don't know. My op is somewhat unsubstantiated but I figure GCN is a reasonably credible source, they talk about it @ around 10:00 minutes.


----------



## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

As always, there's a bit more to the legislation than just allowing more power as shown in this article;

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/new-e-bike-category-ups-power-1000-watts-396471

TL-DR; The rider needs to be licensed and the machine registered and insured, but unlike riders of motorcycles and mopeds, there's no requirement to wear a helmet and the e-bikes can be used on a cycle path.

EDIT - but looking at the Rad Power Bikes site I can't see how the use of the bikes could be easily policed without close scrutiny.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I hope nobody is shocked or surprised. There has literally not been an instance of humans putting motors on a machine and not started looking for ways to make it more powerful. There is no practical way to police what type of motorized machine someone is riding and whether or not they have hacked it to go faster than is was supposed to go in stock trim.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

vikb said:


> I hope nobody is shocked or surprised. There has literally not been an instance of humans putting motors on a machine and not started looking for ways to make it more powerful. There is no practical way to police what type of motorized machine someone is riding and whether or not they have hacked it to go faster than is was supposed to go in stock trim.


The thing I like about this is that municipalities will have to decide that either:
a. these things are fine on our trails, have at it
b. there is no way to police these things so off the MUP's and stay on the streets.

Pushing the power limit and mixing the users with pedestrians and other non-motorized MUP users will force someone to decide if they can handle the legal exposure of allowing these items to mix and from the behavior of the e-bike users I see in Seattle, I suspect it isn't going to end well for them. There is a Class 1 and 2 pilot program for ebikes on one of our busy MUPs and the other night I was passed by a guy on a Rad Power emotorcycle and he must have been doing 30mph. He had the decency to ding his bell but as he was going so much faster than me I actually got the doppler effect as he blew by me. It will come to a head. Who comes out on the other side will be interesting. FWIW I am only talking about paved paths. In WA no ebikes on state or county trails thankfully.


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

rockcrusher said:


> In WA no ebikes on state or county trails thankfully.


That does not stop them.


----------



## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

There's always demand for more as there is demand for less.

How many people went you know went from Camry to Prius or a Leaf? 

There's demand across the spectrum. I'm still looking for the unicorn trail e-bike for my wife, sub-40#, 150W, 300Wh. Looks like we're getting close.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Up to 4000w of power for ebikes with 3 wheels!









Home - Rungu


----------



## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

This is a huge change for the e industry. Good find JB Weld. The limit is still set to 25 kilometers per hour. My guess is that this regulation won't differentiate mtb and road.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Was watching the GCN show this morning and saw that Europe will soon raise the power limit on ebikes from 250 to 1,000 watts and can also use a throttle. I'm not sure how this affects their "class" system but it isn't surprising news to me and I'm guessing the 25kph speed limit will also soon be raised as well.
> 
> Still a bicycle?


First, with gas at the equivalent of around $7/gallon in Europe, any electric-propelled bike or vehicle is a plus for them. They are way more practical over there than we are so it doesn't matter if it's still considered a bike or not there, it's saving money and not polluting the environment, so it's win-win for them. Hopefully it will help their inner city street congestion, with their 1000 year old narrow cobblestone passages and all. We Americans often have to travel much farther to work, supermarkets, etc., so e-bikes are not quite as practical here as there.

Second, as I have found out with my 1000W e-bike, there is a big difference in the actual usability of max watts on different terrain. 1000W is useable on the street, but anything over 400W is really not needed unless your antisocial tendencies pop up. 400-500W is plenty even on the street. 400-500W is often usable on hardpack with little to no loose dirt or rocks, for short periods of time. For any decent amount of loose dirt, anything over 200-250W can and will start to spin the tire. Unless someone has gobs of traction, 1000W is simply unusable off pavement due to the factors above, so it really doesn't apply to mountain biking anyway. As far as throttles are concerned, I only use mine briefly for steep paved sections, and I could simply up the pedal-assist level instead, so not sure how others feel but to me they are not needed.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> Unless someone has gobs of traction, 1000W is simply unusable off pavement due to the factors above, so it really doesn't apply to mountain biking anyway.


People routinely use 20,000 watts off road without problems, with more power you can afford more traction.

I never suggested that electric vehicles weren't good for congested cities but I do question whether or not they belong on bicycle or pedestrian paths.


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

This new reg targets the utility sector is how I understand it in order for cargo bikes, or trikes, to be designed for maximum load carrying capacity that will allow them to be more efficient for city/urban use. As said above realistically there is no need for that much power on an eMTB but for other uses it can be. Try and see the bigger picture and remember that the onus with any vehicle depends on the operator, motorized or not. 

I doubt that it will effect the speed limit as there is no need for that type of transport to be fast but even a thousand watts will struggle to get a say 300lb load underway and at the same time be chomping ah's like crazy so in addition to the larger wattage motors they also will have to have large Ah batteries to have any range. A high torque/low speed throttle will help facilitate getting going with a heavy load enough for the PAS to become effective. 

The fact that RAD has expanded into the EU market is interesting however in that their bikes use larger than current reg EU sized watt motors and have throttles and seem to fit nicely into this new reg category allowing them legal access. They remain legal here in the US however with a higher top allowable speed rating as Class 2 bikes. Also there are any number of in place open source eBikes that use 1,000 watts or more and have for years here both on and off road. The emerging popularity of eBikes is just a continuation of a trend that started years ago that is now being backed by the manufacturers and government entities.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Bigwheel said:


> This new reg targets the utility sector is how I understand it in order for cargo bikes, or trikes, to be designed for maximum load carrying capacity that will allow them to be more efficient for city/urban use. As said above realistically there is no need for that much power on an eMTB but for other uses it can be. Try and see the bigger picture and remember that the onus with any vehicle depends on the operator, motorized or not.


I doubt the 1,000 watt max will be limited to cargo bikes (trikes get 4,000) Of course there's no "need" for that much power but there is a want. As mentioned lots of people effectively use 1,000's of watts.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

The other day I was hiking on a trail and a rider on a yeti blew by me at what must have been 30mph. Does it matter if he has a normal bike or ebike? The only way to enforce is speed limits, and that will never happen everywhere.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> The other day I was hiking on a trail and a rider on a yeti blew by me at what must have been 30mph. Does it matter if he has a normal bike or ebike? The only way to enforce is speed limits, and that will never happen everywhere.


Humans are limited to ~.5 hp and that will never change.


----------



## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

The industry is going to need to re-classify things, especially on the MTB side. I am not so sure lumping a pedal assist eMTB (class1) into all of this 'more power' and 'throttles', class 2, class 3. All the latter are motorcycles, I think a class 1 still leans more into the bike category---so they need their own category, to keep them safe from getting banned, perhaps??


----------

