# My personal take on riding e



## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I can say:

My experience is riding/racing motos all my life. Mt bikes since they came into existence early 1980s if you exclude myself trying to imitate Charlie C. before that on old Klunkers.

So e bikes are a totally different animal. They ride like no other. The Specialized Turbo Levo is a great bike to ride. Tight rocky singletrack for me is using the 20 percent boost, any more and the bike surges and pulls the front end in slow turns! 

I do ride in 20 percent boost level when riding with friends who are not on e bikes, just for "respect, and the enjoyment of the ride" Don't want to piss people off or have them feel I'm racing them with the advantage of powered assist.

More open singletrack, and I have used the 50 percent boost with caution on long runs. It really opens up and jumps through stuff. More so to the excellent width of the plus tires! I could talk about plus tires for days but that's not what I 'm here for.

Full 100 percent boost is really too much for the trails I ride, and dumping into full boost makes for a real eye opener! I spend way more time way deep in skillset than having fun riding. I guess if I were racing it would be race face mode!

I do find that the e bike is more similar to moto trails than MX moto style woods riding where a clutch really helps on a moto to soften the power.

I hope you can tell us your feelings and we can all learn from what others have experienced.

Just my 2 cents, would like to hear others opinions...


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Ditto here. I run 10-50-100. 95% always in 10%. The bike pushes in corners. If you don't stiffen up the front and are aggressive front beaker, it will dive.
I'm running FOX Pedelec 150 with 2 addt'l tokens. Weigh 195 geared up.
Courious what pressures you guys or girls are running in your Purgs? This bike is harder to set up than my normal 6 fattie. Mass factor!


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I run pretty stiff almost to the max! 240 and over six foot tall geared up. Yes the bike is heavy and at my weight I think the regular platform suspension could be ramped up even more. More adjusting must happen for me. I will add a longer stem and riser bars for the stuff I ride needs more weight over the front wheel. I have found running a higher gear at 20 percent boost lessens the jumping out of turns.

I run 20 rear 17 front for very rocky stuff, and a bit less elsewhere.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

NEPMTBA said:


> So e bikes are a totally different animal.
> 
> Full 100 percent boost is really too much for the trails I ride, and dumping into full boost makes for a real eye opener! I spend way more time way deep in skillset than having fun riding. I guess if I were racing it would be race face mode!
> 
> I do find that the e bike is more similar to moto trails than MX moto style woods riding where a clutch really helps on a moto to soften the power.


Why they should be treated as a separate class instead of lumped in with bicycles. My two cents.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

tiretracks said:


> Why they should be treated as a separate class instead of lumped in with bicycles. My two cents.


The more they talk, the more they prove your point.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm glad you fools shared your riding impressions of your Levo.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

That was certainly the impression I got when I rode one - "Holy crap, I could go moto speed on most trails if I wanted" (I was riding on pavement, though). Admittedly, with plenty of effort, but crap, you can haul ass. 

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> I'm glad you fools shared your riding impressions of your Levo.


It's not like this is the only board that emotorbikers share this info on. The cats been let out of the bag for quite some time.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Walt said:


> That was certainly the impression I got when I rode one - "Holy crap, I could go moto speed on most trails if I wanted" (I was riding on pavement, though). Admittedly, with plenty of effort, but crap, you can haul ass.
> 
> -Walt


Ditto


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

I've ridden the Levo. Nobody's denying the fun factor. I grinned when I rode it. What gearhead wouldn't when you can go so fast. It's cheating. I also grin every time I hop on my moto. Speed with little to no work is always fun. Exactly why they shouldn't be on multi-use mtb/hiker/equestrian based single-track.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Oh My Sack! said:


> I've ridden the Levo. Nobody's denying the fun factor. I grinned when I rode it. What gearhead wouldn't when you can go so fast. It's cheating. I also grin every time I hop on my moto. Speed with little to no work is always fun. Exactly why they shouldn't be on multi-use mtb/hiker/equestrian based single-track.


Sums it up well.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, if it was just bikes on the trails, and maybe some accommodation was made for directionality in some cases (as with many moto trails) where needed, I'd be all over these things.

But 90% of the trails I ride are multi-user, and the 10% that are bike only are basically all ski area bikepark trails where there's a chairlift (which I guess I could shuttle laps on with a LEVO or something, but it would probably be less fun). The multiuse stuff just can't handle more speed unless you kick the hikers off, and even if that was politically feasible I wouldn't want it to happen, because I *like* hiking and hikers and I'm having plenty of fun at the speed I can go *without* a motor on my bike. 

-Walt


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Just to clarify the property I'm riding on is PRIVATE, owned by a group of friends who agree "having fun is the topic" 

The guys and gals who recreate there and have ridden the Levo came away with the same reaction. WOW! That is really cool. Going forward those who ride motos felt they would stick to the motos. Those who ride mtbs were mixed, some would consider a Levo while others want to pedal.

The Levo opens up a whole new adventure process. It gives me reason to think up new ways to use a new toy. Can I jump on my moto and travel hundreds of miles, and have fun? Done that! Yes! Can I pedal my mtb in places where the moto shouldn't be? Yes!

I didn't post this thread to talk about access, or where you can or can't ride e bikes. Plenty of those threads everywhere else. For me e bike is here to stay, and I will promote them as long as they provide fun and enjoyment for those who look to that element. I stepped up and took the time to introduce the rangers at our local state park and educate them on e bikes. The Levo was designed to be allowed in State parks in Pennsylvania. So the cart isn't before the horse. Will there be state parks who don't allow them? I'm sure! Valley Forge for one probably won't. Am I crying? Hell no! There are state parks in Pa who don't allow regular mtbs! 

Being a state certified trail builder bla bla bla "not bragging" I'm watching from the drivers seat of an e bike if they do harm to the trails. It's never been proven e bikes wear the trails more, but they are new, so data will have to be collected. Going forward if I see more trail wear you can bet I would be the first to help work on the trails I love. 

The most significant thing for me is when I ride my Levo at the local state park where I have ridden all my adult life with a pedal bike, the Levo allows me to make the hills much easier thus more connecting my ride as I don't have to die on the hills for 12 seconds of downhill fun! Now the entire ride is one big fun fest for me. This doesn't mean that I'm speeding around the loop like I'm on a moto. Rather I want to spend more time out in the park and woods cause I fell stronger for a longer period of time.

Personally I own some of the fastest motos know to man, and some really great mtbs, but the Levo is the new "NEW"

On another note most people I see when I ride the state park don't even know I'm on an e bike. If I see hikers or another riders I'm coming up on I check my speed and approach them with the usual "hello" as I would do on a regular mtb. So where is the threat or difference with an e bike? It's still in the control of the rider.

The best quote I heard was from a friend who rode the Levo and happens to be a very extreme mt biker and rides mtbs all over the USA, vowed he would never ride an e bike. Said: "I'm now going buying a Levo, so I can do epic week long rides"


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

I bet they are a lot of fun and while the thread wasn't started to discuss access I am sure a lot of the folks who ride these and will be posting their experiences are not riding them on private land or OHV approved trails. I see more and more locally on trails were they are illegal so yeah, access will be brought up or at least an elephant in the room for these discussions.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

NEPMTBA said:


> So where is the threat or difference with an e bike? It's still in the control of the rider.


Since you asked I'll submit my puny opinion.

Electrified bikes allow one to travel faster and further, so the typical e-bike owner will average higher speeds and cover more ground than they would on a mountain bike. Manners vary and many mountain bikers barely slow down when passing other trail users so it's logical to assume that a similar percentage of e-bikers would be courtesy challenged, and again likely running higher speeds and encountering more people than they would if pedaling due to that and distance traveled.

Also because they (electric bikes) are unanimously regarded as being super fun (by essentially removing climbs) their popularity could soon exceed mountain bikes, possibly by a lot, which would further impact other trail users (horses/hikers).

So for the hundredth time I'm not against them but they aren't bicycles and if legally categorized as such one user group benefits at the expense of several others. How is that fair?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Oh My Sack! said:


> I've ridden the Levo. Nobody's denying the fun factor. I grinned when I rode it. What gearhead wouldn't when you can go so fast. It's cheating. I also grin every time I hop on my moto. Speed with little to no work is always fun. Exactly why they shouldn't be on multi-use mtb/hiker/equestrian based single-track.


^nailed it


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Oh My Sack! said:


> I've ridden the Levo. Nobody's denying the fun factor. I grinned when I rode it. What gearhead wouldn't when you can go so fast. It's cheating. I also grin every time I hop on my moto. Speed with little to no work is always fun. Exactly why they shouldn't be on multi-use mtb/hiker/equestrian based single-track.


If you think riding a Levo and a Moto going fast is little to no work, you're not going fast enough.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> If you think riding a Levo and a Moto going fast is little to no work, you're not going fast enough.


Thank you for reaffirming the potential for higher speeds in emotorbikes.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

NEPMTBA said:


> The best quote I heard was from a friend who rode the Levo and happens to be a very extreme mt biker and rides mtbs all over the USA, vowed he would never ride an e bike. Said: "I'm now going buying a Levo, so I can do epic week long rides"


This sums up why I will never ride one of these. Ever. Not in a mountain biking sense.

An electric moto? Yes for sure. But never an electric mtb.

People have been doing epic week long rides since well before an electric motor was inserted into a mountain bike.  Doing it under your own power is what makes the ride 'Epic'.

A lot of people can be (or should I say think they are) seriously bad ass on Guitar Hero...

They ain't playing the friggin guitar.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> Thank you for reaffirming the potential for higher speeds in emotorbikes.


I'm glad you don't bomb any downhills that you've worked so feverishly to get up. We all know the "emotorbikes" your referring to will offer higher speeds.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Everyone is going to bomb downhills regardless of what they're riding. But if everyone can also bomb the climbs/flat parts... that is going to really upset a lot of other users. When I'm out hiking with my kids I don't want to have to watch behind me for someone on an electric bike coming up from behind at 15+ mph - which is a speed I and many other fit people can easily exceed on a lot of climbs on these things. Going hard, I'd be braking hard for corners and getting air on many moderate (ie 5%) climbs.

Look, lots of things are fun yet only appropriate in some situations. You don't take target practice at the trailhead, or set off fireworks at 2am, or drive 120mph on the freeway because those things annoy and endanger the other folks you share space with. I'd love to go do some sport climbs on El Cap, but it wouldn't be ok to bolt the Nose. 

"It's fun" isn't an argument for an activity being _appropriate_. 

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> I'm glad you don't bomb any downhills that you've worked so feverishly to get up. We all know the "emotorbikes" your referring to will offer higher speeds.


See Walts most salient post, he said it more eloquently than I could ever hope to.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> See Walts most salient post, he said it more eloquently than I could ever hope to.


Hey, where it's legal, it's legal. 20 up, down, all around.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Hey, where it's legal, it's legal. 20 up, down, all around.


True that but, legal areas will be shrinking.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> True that but, legal areas will be shrinking.


Possibly, but could also go the other way. If you ride the manufactures bike that also produces ebikes, you need to sell it. It sounds like you are that loyal.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Possibly, but could also go the other way. If you ride the manufactures bike that also produces ebikes, you need to sell it. It sounds like you are that loyal.


That sounds like a fine idea, organize a boycott of manufacturers that also sell emotorbikes. It could be truly disruptive to an already struggling industry to watch their core segment vaporize thanks in part to your suggestion. Who knows? Could work.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Just be sure to make sure it is legal and you know what the trail speed is where you are planning to ride.

The local Multi-use trails in San Diego have a trail speed of 15mph, it is posted along with all the other fine print and park rules are most trail entrances.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It is completely mystifying to me that the manufacturers didn't adopt/advocate the EU 250/15 limits for offroad use. You'd still have the problem of people modding their gear, but at least you wouldn't open up a power/speed arms race to 20mph/750w where I don't think any reasonable person thinks the vehicle is appropriate for MUTs. 

-Walt


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Walt said:


> It is completely mystifying to me that the manufacturers didn't adopt/advocate the EU 250/15 limits for offroad use. You'd still have the problem of people modding their gear, but at least you wouldn't open up a power/speed arms race to 20mph/750w where I don't think any reasonable person thinks the vehicle is appropriate for MUTs.
> 
> -Walt


I think the decision to gamble against separate standards (I'm speaking California) for road/trail is based upon "all or nothing"; if they (manufacturer's lobby) had put out the separate standards it would have drawn attention to even using e-bikes on trails and the Sierra Club (and others) may well have quashed e-bike useage anywhere. As it is they're quite happy with e-bikes for commuting purposes roads/bike lanes and of course they don't want anything with 2 wheels on trails.

I'd also like to point out that Americans are a bit fatter than Europeans and (we) need some extra wattage just to be even. IMHO the 750 watt is about right for e-bike viability on road or off. And again I'll state that I like e-bikes but they are motorcycles and have their places (which isn't everywhere "regular" bikes can travel).


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## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

The technology is still real new, give it another 5 years and batteries will be so small and last longer you will never know someone is even riding a ebike. After my test ride on the levo I really wanted one, like you said, instant grin factor, but in the end I did not want all the hate from other riders.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

tiretracks said:


> That sounds like a fine idea, organize a boycott of manufacturers that also sell emotorbikes. It could be truly disruptive to an already struggling industry to watch their core segment vaporize thanks in part to your suggestion. Who knows? Could work.


Never had any love for Specialized but did think they made some really good items. Like saddles, tires, and shoes, and a few other bits - and bought quite a few items over the years.

Since their push on electric bikes I've put my money where my mouth is and stopped buying from them.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Miker J said:


> Never had any love for Specialized but did think they made some really good items. Like saddles, tires, and shoes, and a few other bits - and bought quite a few items over the years.
> 
> Since their push on electric bikes I've put my money where my mouth is and stopped buying from them.


Yup. Now that Specialized bunged up their new tires (IMHO, undersized and less supple), I'm going to have an even easier time doing just this.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Out this weekend and having a little rain added to the fun. Now all of the stuff where the front end would push seems to flow better even though the rocks are really slippy. More of a tire issue and tuning.

I have to limit myself from over pedaling the motor. Yes, I said I have to limit myself. Staying within the scope of the drive system sometimes becomes a hindrance. Like trying to get up a rock face where you need to pedal fast to gain momentum doesn't happen with the Levo. Half way up, static balance, and hop? Outta the question here!!!!!!!!! IT'S 50 POUNDS PLUS and doesn't have a clutch like the Gas Gas where I can hold power into a rock then release to gain momentum. More like a steady approach and then pull hard on the bars wait for the power and traction to catch up works better. So as far as "BIG UPS" on the Levo? Well come show me how, cause I don't see it happening. I'll have a invite for a few local district six moto trails guys some weekend and see how they ride the Levo. More on that in the future!

Back to "pedaling the motor" The other riders who have ridden the Levo are outta breath just as much if not more than regular pedal riders. The Levo allows you to ride faster, farther, but you have to work harder just like on a pedal bike. Also consider this is a 50 plus pound ride, and acceleration doesn't happen in bunches, but rather over a longer time frame. If you over pedal your just wasting your time trying to get a 50 pound mt bike to go fast. I have discovered if I pedal at the proper cadence the Levo really rides great.

Shifting! Yes you shift more on the Levo if you really listen to how the power comes on. I find it's kinda like an old school Honda CR125. Here comes the power! OH HELL where did the power go? Dim light switch! Not as to how fast it comes on, but it mellows out really quickly.

Disclaimer:
If your having trouble following what's coming outta my mind, sorry, my fault I have way too many hours riding motos and building engines. I keep trying to switch channels, but stuck in the 1970s at Sleepy Hollow MX is the only channel I get. 

The Levo is a different cat! Kinda the one who sits by and watches others cry a moan then just like a shadow disappears into the woods silently. 

Now that opens up an entire new area. Meaning sitting down all the time makes me depend on suspension tuning a whole bunch more!

Now who wants damping school?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Agree, they work the best spinning a higher cadence seated.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> Also consider this is a 50 plus pound ride, and acceleration doesn't happen in bunches, but rather over a longer time frame. If you over pedal your just wasting your time trying to get a 50 pound mt bike to go fast.


My main AM bike is a 2006 Kona Coiler, not much lighter than a e-Bike I guess.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It seems like torque sensor systems need further refinement if you have to moderate your pedaling rpms to control the motor so it behaves to your liking. Id think a throttle overide like on kit bikes would be the best solution. Use PAS as a base level and then pop the throttle when you're stalled on a tech section. I don't understand the bias against throttles in the legislation and by the manufacturers, it's silly.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Harryman said:


> It seems like torque sensor systems need further refinement if you have to moderate your pedaling rpms to control the motor so it behaves to your liking. Id think a throttle overide like on kit bikes would be the best solution. Use PAS as a base level and then pop the throttle when you're stalled on a tech section. I don't understand the bias against throttles in the legislation and by the manufacturers, it's silly.


I've got 2 bikes with PAS; one torque sensing and one cadence sensing. The cadence system also has a twist-grip throttle; at first the cadence system felt weird and I relied mostly on the throttle but once I learned the "blend" of the PAS levels I seldom touch the throttle. Only in very slow and very top speed situations.

The torque sensing system assures the rider supplies some of the motive force; some settings on the cadence system the rider applies zero effort---it feels like the chain has fallen off but you're flying up the trail as long as one keeps turning over the crank.

I think the bias has to do with the original legislation (Europe); hard to argue that a bike that moves without pedaling is not a motorcycle.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

So last night on the ride...

...I tried to be really smooth and look closely at turns and how I apply the power by waiting and pedaling a bit before I needed the boost. My friend goes by "CR500" here on mtbr and he had noticed and having ridden the Levo we talked a bit about the problem and we arrived at the fact if you cut across the apex in a turn you stand a better chance of not popping the front end out of the turn. Now all this depends on if the turn has scattered tombstone rocks. So there a method that is working and I know I'm riding very rocky terrain that doesn't lend it self to the Levo if not any mt bike!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

So in short, it's too much power for mountain bike trails?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> So in short, it's too much power for mountain bike trails?


Dude, do you ever give up?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Dude, do you ever give up?


No. Get used to the opposition.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Dude, do you ever give up?


 That's we.


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## 29Inches (Apr 11, 2005)

Ebike

The hate on ebikes is the same hate on change over the years.......

Mid 1980's. Aluminum is fine for road bikes but too fragile for mountain bikes...STEEL is real!

Late 1980’s. There is no need for suspension on a mountain bikes…who wants to add weight to a bike.

Early 1990’s. Disk brakes…see suspension.

And so on with carbon fiber, tubeless tires, 29” wheels, 1 X drivetrains….

Personally I have no problem with ebikes and can see how they would be fun.

The issue is that the technology will get better and the bikes will go faster. People can call it what they want “Motorized” …. “Pedal assist non-Motorized” or whatever…they have no place on single-track…fire roads…..sure why not


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

29Inches said:


> The hate on ebikes is the same hate on change over the years.......


Not even close, none of the examples you cited infringed on the definition of what a bicycle is. I'm probably one of the strongest objectors to electric bikes sharing the same legal description as bicycles there is but I don't hate e-bikes in the least.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

The E haters will hate the rest will enjoy e biking and the shops that sell e bikes will have a whole new lineup of bikes to sell along with all the new e stuff, Its a great time to be a e biker with lots of new ways and new places to ride. Lets not spend time arguing about e bikes that argument is over, the e bike trail access will get worked out mostly in favor of e bikes just a short time riding one will do the convincing. Let the E haters Hate the rest of us will look at Mt biking in a new way .


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

You couldn't be and won't be more wrong with that diatribe.


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## 29Inches (Apr 11, 2005)

rider95 said:


> The E haters will hate the rest will enjoy e biking and the shops that sell e bikes will have a whole new lineup of bikes to sell along with all the new e stuff, Its a great time to be a e biker with lots of new ways and new places to ride. Lets not spend time arguing about e bikes that argument is over, the e bike trail access will get worked out mostly in favor of e bikes just a short time riding one will do the convincing. Let the E haters Hate the rest of us will look at Mt biking in a new way .


You have my e-agreement except for trail access.... NO E-BIKES ON NON-MOTORIZED TRAILS


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

29Inches said:


> You have my e-agreement except for trail access.... NO E-BIKES ON NON-MOTORIZED TRAILS


Shhhh, saying that on this sub will get you labeled as a hater.


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## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

I ride with some really skilled local MTBers and trail builders in the SoCal mountains. When I rock the ebike on group rides with these guys I get no opposition, just some friendly ball busting, and they all note that the ebike does no more trail damage than a non motorized rig. This from the gang that built the trails we're riding on. If you ride it like a regular MTB how can it do more damage? Answer: it can't. If you're cool on the bike and don't do stupid stuff no one will even know you're on an e rig. Problem is there are too many stupid riders out there.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

All trail users do damage, including mtbs. At a minimum, If you're riding more miles than you would on a mtb, you're doing more damage per ride than you would normally.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

As more Mt bikers discover what you have about e bikes there will be less distrust more trails open to e bikes as you have found all the e hate is simply underserved. And like you after have ridden my e bike for 3 plus yrs my experience with other riders has been similar to yours certainly nothing like some of the hate on this forum . Like you said just ride with respect for others .


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## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

Harryman said:


> At a minimum, If you're riding more miles than you would on a mtb, you're doing more damage per ride than you would normally.


Bit of a stretch IMO. Ebikes roosting and skidding and tearing up trails is one thing, but to invoke the claim of more trail damage simply because one is out for a longer time may be technically true, however it's really a specious argument assuming the rider isn't roosting, skidding, etc.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

2xPneu said:


> If you ride it like a regular MTB how can it do more damage? Answer: it can't. If you're cool on the bike and don't do stupid stuff no one will even know you're on an e rig. Problem is there are too many stupid riders out there.


That's exactly the point. Too many stupid, self serving jack-ass riders out there. And the only person that's going to control them on the bike that has the ability to be ridden differently than a mountain bike will be them...which undoubtedly won't be going over very well. To deny this is disingenuous. And then it will be the trails getting shut down that will do the controlling.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

If you do the math an e-bike (ridden like a "regular MTB") will contribute 9~22% more wear on the trail just on increased weight alone. Add in the 2~3 X more torque available for climbing and even more trail surface is getting abraded. Fat tire e-bikes with appropriate tire pressures might get a pass on this.

BTW the 9% is "standard man" at 170 lbs body weight and 22% is for us 210 lbs fat-asses more typically seen on e-bikes.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

I just spent a week in Sedona riding. I came across 3 people on e-bikes on separate occasions.. One was riding on one of the overcrowded trails with his buddies and they all were courteous trail users. The next day I saw one weaving in and out of people going way too fast, a idiot. The last one I saw was on the street on a rental bike and he had just been hit by a car.
One out of three isn't bad I guess?
The problem all of us are going to have is that anyone regardless of their ability can buy a e-bike and go fast. Something that takes awhile to build up to on a Bicycle.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

2xPneu said:


> If you're cool on the bike and don't do stupid stuff no one will even know you're on an e rig. Problem is there are too many stupid riders out there.


This entire argument could be applied to basically any motorized vehicle, though. We ban them from some places because we all know that not everyone is going to be "cool". Stupid person on a bike can be kind of a pain for everyone. Stupid person on a moto can absolutely wreck trails and get people hurt/killed. E-bike is closer to a bike on that spectrum (at least as of right now/assuming no user mods) but it's still a question of giving morons (as well as nice folks) more power/speed, and that is probably bad for trail access overall.

-Walt


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## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

*Is this a criminal??*



Moe Ped said:


> If you do the math an e-bike (ridden like a "regular MTB") will contribute 9~22% more wear on the trail just on increased weight alone. Add in the 2~3 X more torque available for climbing and even more trail surface is getting abraded. Fat tire e-bikes with appropriate tire pressures might get a pass on this.
> 
> BTW the 9% is "standard man" at 170 lbs body weight and 22% is for us 210 lbs fat-asses more typically seen on e-bikes.


On a personal note I'm about 165 kitted out, rig is 55 pounds, so 220 on the trail. The ebike I ride is a fattie and I run 4.8 tyres 6/7 psi f/r. I ride responsibly, don't tear up the trails, and will continue to ride more and more and more until I can't take it anymore. According to the haters I'm ripping the shite out of the trails and ruining everyone's experiences and for that I apologize. But I'll continue to responsibly ride the hell out of my rig despite the hatin', so bring it on.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

2xPneu said:


> Bit of a stretch IMO. Ebikes roosting and skidding and tearing up trails is one thing, but to invoke the claim of more trail damage simply because one is out for a longer time may be technically true, however it's really a specious argument assuming the rider isn't roosting, skidding, etc.


If 50% of the existing mtb population switches to ebikes (as has happened in some places in Europe) and starts riding twice as far, it's the same net effect as increasing the riding population by 50%. Increasing usage increases the maintenance load on those who end up doing it, it's not just technically true, it is true. The land managers I've pointed this out to find it another compelling reason not to introduce them to their trail systems. So while you might think it doesn't matter, it does.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Damn, I so wanted this thread to be about "ME"
LOL


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

NEPMTBA said:


> Damn, I so wanted this thread to be about "ME"
> LOL


It's all about "E" instead.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Harryman said:


> If 50% of the existing mtb population switches to ebikes (as has happened in some places in Europe) and starts riding twice as far, it's the same net effect as increasing the riding population by 50%. Increasing usage increases the maintenance load on those who end up doing it, it's not just technically true, it is true. The land managers I've pointed this out to find it another compelling reason not to introduce them to their trail systems. So while you might think it doesn't matter, it does.


 Its more like this Harry I rode my e bike from my house its 10 mi to trail head I did two loops 7mi each was passed on the trail by 3 riders one a girl . On my ride back home I had to stop at the pub to plug my bike in had lunch waiting on my bike to charge then 10 mi back home that's the way I find e biking .


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rider95 said:


> The E haters will hate the rest will enjoy e biking and the shops that sell e bikes will have a whole new lineup of bikes to sell along with all the new e stuff, Its a great time to be a e biker with lots of new ways and new places to ride. Lets not spend time arguing about e bikes that argument is over, the e bike trail access will get worked out mostly in favor of e bikes just a short time riding one will do the convincing. Let the E haters Hate the rest of us will look at Mt biking in a new way .


 Umm, not hating here. Seems they would be great for commuting and cargo bikes. And bikes don't have motors. As well as not legal here in most of MA. So not quite a done deal. We'll see how your CA test case works out.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

tiretracks said:


> It's all about "E" instead.


 Oh it's all about me changing that "real" soon if it doesn't get "REAL" really quick!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

NEPMTBA said:


> Oh it's all about me changing that "real" soon if it doesn't get "REAL" really quick!


It's been pretty "real" so far so it sounds like sour grapes tbh.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Funny how when I respond all of a sudden "it's sour grapes"


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

NEPMTBA said:


> Funny how when I respond all of a sudden "it's sour grapes"


Your the one responding in innuendo.

Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
Oh it's all about me changing that "real" soon if it doesn't get "REAL" really quick!

If that doesn't sound like sour grapes nothing does.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

So from this point on we will talk about the "actual" topic of the thread...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

What was the actual topic again? That e-bikes are different and ride different? I think everyone agrees with that.

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Walt said:


> What was the actual topic again? That e-bikes are different and ride different? I think everyone agrees with that.
> 
> -Walt


Yep.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Yes and I expect to hear of "riding" not hating or trying to confuse the thread.

This total disrespect, not only to a forum user, but to a Mod who helps out here on mtbr and has posted a thread of his own personal topic.

So if your have stories on personally riding an e bike then have at it.

I apologize to these e bikers who are concerned and come here to talk about the positive aspects of e biking and are offended by the "off topic" "unfriendly" "hating" comments!

"This is where I would place a copy of the forum rules" but I'll just remove stuff rather than add from here on in unless it's positive and informative in nature.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ok, my experience is as follows: I rode a LEVO (on pavement) for about 10 minutes. I took it up a ~6% grade climb and could hit the limiter on the assist (I think 18mph?) in everything over eco mode as long as I tried reasonably hard. It was fast as hell, and I wanted the limiter off to see if I could go like 20+mph uphill (which is what the physics would say is doable with the extra power).

Other than that, it felt like a bike, basically. Tires probably had too much air in them but since I wasn't on dirt it didn't matter. It didn't particularly make me want one, though it did make me think about how fun it would be to race enduros/hare scrambles on something like this. On the right course you could totally smoke some folks on full on ICE rigs. 

If I had a lot of torn up moto trails around to ride I'd consider building myself one. But I have non-moto stuff exclusively. 

I am strongly considering putting a Bafang 750W kit on my wife's townie so that she can pull the 100+ pounds of kid and trailer a little more easily (especially in bad weather). 

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Walt said:


> I am strongly considering putting a Bafang 750W kit on my wife's townie so that she can pull the 100+ pounds of kid and trailer a little more easily (especially in bad weather).
> 
> -Walt


Commuting/running errands on an emotorbike makes a lot of sense, especially in less than flat terrain. Single track, not so much


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I gotta say it's a very different animal...
...the Levo works way better on trails where top speed isn't high. Applied power is finicky, very easy to over pedal. I have the same problem. I have to remind myself to pedal within the zone where the trail really smooths out. Even then quick ups where you need to use pedal speed make it difficult.

750 for the wife?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I guess I could go like 1500 but she doesn't need/want to go 25+mph with the kids in the trailer. Or are you saying 750 is too much?

-Walt


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

It is a lot, but I don't know your wife either. I mean you know where and how she would ride, I def wouldn't go more.
.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Well, total vehicle weight is something in the ballpark (with rider) of 250-300 pounds depending on how many library books and various kids items she's got in the trailer. Paved bike paths/roads, some climbing but nothing crazy, plenty of wind, and max range needed about 10 miles. I figured 750W would be plenty for that, and if it's too much, we can always program for lower max power, right?

She's a professional XC and enduro racer type gal, so bike handling/skills are not an issue.

-Walt


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

A more powerful motor running nowhere near max will run cooler and be happier than a smaller motor near its limit. The penalty is only a pound or two, so why not?


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Walt said:


> Well, total vehicle weight is something in the ballpark (with rider) of 250-300 pounds depending on how many library books and various kids items she's got in the trailer. Paved bike paths/roads, some climbing but nothing crazy, plenty of wind, and max range needed about 10 miles. I figured 750W would be plenty for that, and if it's too much, we can always program for lower max power, right?
> 
> She's a professional XC and enduro racer type gal, so bike handling/skills are not an issue.
> 
> -Walt


One of my project bikes is a 29er HT with the Bafang BBS02 purchased from Luna. Overall I'm pretty impressed with the package; it has the Calif. legal programming and I wouldn't say the 750 watts is "too much power". Depending on the console you have up to 9 PAS levels to choose from; the cadence sensor takes some getting used to if you're used to a torque sensor.

The smallest stock chain ring is 44t which is too tall IMHO for single track with any hills. When you go to a smaller aftermarket chain ring the chain line is all wrong to use the larger cassette sprockets on the back.

So this is a pretty good street/bike path package; no cigar for serious trail use. You'll be spending about $1k including a decent battery.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

To clarify, no need/desire to ride trails. Even if she wanted to do that the entire Park City area is a no-go for e-bikes on natural surface trails. She has a couple very nice real mountain bikes for going mountain biking.

She gets around ok as it is, because she has monster fitness. But there are some days when it's windy and/or she's pulling 150# of stuff around when it would be nice to have the assist.

I've considered building a STEPS frame from scratch but I'm not sure it's worth bothering given that she has a plethora of old mountain bikes/frames gathering dust that could easily be converted.

-Walt


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Luna has a 30 tooth "narrow-wide" chainring that is really useful (to me); speed of 22-24 mph still available. You're talented enough to space the three or four gears she would use and get a good chainline.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Levos are fun to ride. I've since bought a new mtb and am going to wait for issues to settle out. I still rock a Turbo S and X road bikes that top out at 28mph. I hammer the S in the mountains and could tell for Walts purpose 750 would be plenty based on what he said his surroundings are. I'm 250 with bike 50# and myself. 40 miles in the mountains and I still have 50-65% battery left. Although the S is expensive, it's badass.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I wish someone would give a report on Luna Cycles bikes theay sell a few dif models also with all the used bikes around what about converting one that you already have over to a middrive ?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

From the Luna site: 

"Frame Sizing
Look at our chart in the image file for reference to frame sizing.

Please don't stress about about frame size the way you do when you buy a pedal bike….it’s not as important.

With electric bikes it is not important to get the right frame sizing, since you are not reliant on efficient human power for propulsion, you won’t notice much of a difference since the motor is doing the lion's share of the work.. We actually recommend going with a smaller size with an ebike than you would get for a pedal bike, because smaller sizes are better for keeping the weight and center of balance low, and are easier to get on and off of (since ebikes are heavier they are more awkward to tilt to swing your leg over)... You can always raise your seat or raise your handlebars….but keep the center of balance low and get a smaller sized bike if you can.

Note that many of our full suspension bikes only come in large and xlarge...this is because it is the only sizes that fit our battery packs."

I think that about sums it up. No way in hell would I buy one of their complete bikes.

-Walt


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Welcome to the wacky alternate universe of ebikes where sprung seats and Thudbusters are coveted accessories since you're mostly just sitting there for the entire ride.

Stick your wife on an X-large, whats the diff?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Harryman said:


> Welcome to the wacky alternate universe of ebikes where sprung seats and Thudbusters are coveted accessories since you're mostly just sitting there for the entire ride.
> 
> Stick your wife on an X-large, whats the diff?


Yes, the Frankenbikes! It's alive, it's alive... throw in some neon pink!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

The frankenbikes are scarily entertaining. People stick thudbusters on everything, including OEM, I'm sure the Thudbuster guys are high fiving themselves all the way to the bank.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Just when you thought they were ready to close the books... thudbuster back again, saving asses everywhere with a new breed of lazy riders!! No disrespect ebikers!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Walt said:


> From the Luna site:
> 
> "Frame Sizing
> Look at our chart in the image file for reference to frame sizing.
> ...


So you gonna convert her old bike to a middrive ? great ideal ! I am gonna switch my hub drive to middrive this winter using my 2000 intense xc bike , already have a 52v battery mabey put the hub motor on a FSR .


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Don't know why the Thudbuster-hate; I've had one on an aluminum hardtail for years and it's been superb; guess it'e just guilt by association or the opponents grabbing anything that e-bikers use and dissing it. Really constructive the way they take the most ridiculous examples (perhaps that they or their like manufactured) or lowest hanging fruit and associate it with all e-bike proponents. How loud can you say disingenuous?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Please don't get excited, I was just joking😎 Everyone on here knows I own ebikes. Admittedly it's not very often nowadays you see the thudbuster a lot. I'm glad it's served you well.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

rider95 said:


> So you gonna convert her old bike to a middrive ? great ideal ! I am gonna switch my hub drive to middrive this winter using my 2000 intense xc bike , already have a 52v battery mabey put the hub motor on a FSR .


Yes, as I said I will either convert one of her old frames, or build a STEPS bike from the ground up. I'm thinking conversion because 1) I'm lazy, and 2) the kids will only be in the bike trailer for at most another year or two - and then I'm guessing she won't use the e-bike anymore. At that point I could swap the motor onto my 'fiets, I guess, though I never really feel like I need an assist. But at least the motor/battery could be used for another project instead of being integrated to a purpose built frame that won't get ridden anymore.

-Walt


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Ok snowflake I hope we meet your expectations


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Gutch said:


> Yes, the Frankenbikes! It's alive, it's alive... throw in some neon pink!


 Gutch +1

Gotta have NEON PINK! Yes Yes Yes...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Since you asked I'll submit my puny opinion.
> 
> Electrified bikes allow one to travel faster and further, so the typical e-bike owner will average higher speeds and cover more ground than they would on a mountain bike. Manners vary and many mountain bikers barely slow down when passing other trail users so it's logical to assume that a similar percentage of e-bikers would be courtesy challenged, and again likely running higher speeds and encountering more people than they would if pedaling due to that and distance traveled.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure they're faster, especially when you consider the folks riding them tend to be less athletically inclined and/or of a geriatric fortitude 

Quite honestly, strong bikers with good technical skills have no interest in ebikes except where it levels the playing field for weaker riders to keep up.

I'm a strong rider, my wife is a weak rider, on an ebike she can hang with me if I ride easy. If I pound, she gets dropped. On the downs I wait for her to catch up. I like riding with her because she's my best friend.

Because ebikes don't have a means to moderate power, the higher power levels are useless except on pavement. On the downs, unless you're a total sissy, you're already going way faster than the motor can go.

Sorry Walt, an ebike is not anything like a moto, I rode the shite outta motos and it's not in the same league.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm not sure they're faster, especially when you consider the folks riding them tend to be less athletically inclined and/or of a geriatric fortitude


This again? So people rave about them because they're the same as bicycles only heavier? NEPMTBA, Gultch, Et al. are lumpy geriatrics?

I agree that e-bike aren't exactly motos but technically they have more in common with them than bicycles.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Where did I leave my damn walker?!!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Sure, if you take a slow rider and put them on an e-bike, they're not any faster than a fast rider on a normal bike.

It's when you put a fast rider on that it's a different ballgame. As I've said before - I can ride a LEVO *uphill* (5% grade or so) and hit the limiter even when I'm not in turbo. Dongle it or delimit it somehow and as long as I wasn't too concerned about battery life I could hang with a moto on a lot of singletrack just fine and be braking for every corner even on steeper stuff.

I agree that most people who ride them now are slow (and for the record, there is nothing wrong with being slow). That will not be the case forever, though. I know how *I'd* ride one, and how I'd ride one has a lot more in common with how I'd ride a moto than a bicycle.

-Walt


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## Wheezy (Nov 1, 2003)

I'm the ebike haters worst nightmare. Been riding for 25 years now, worked in several shops and for several companies. I know the ins and outs of the MTB scene rather well. I've also won a few championships on the DH bike back in the day. I also race enduro on motorcycles and do pretty good. I am known as "wheezy" because I have pretty sever handicap and it's getting worse with age. It restricts my breathing, severely. 

I demo'd a levo and almost instantly ended up buying one. I'm 6'5" and 265lbs and it's been a god send. I ride it everywhere in CA and have had exactly zero encounters with haters while on the trails. I'm pretty friendly for a big scary lookin dude too, always willing to stop and talk. I don't know if it's due to the fact that I'm a gorilla or that they didn't notice or that in reality, it's no big deal. 

To say they have too much power for mtb trails, or that you think you can keep up with a moto is laughable to me. I'd bet any amount of money you couldn't keep up with me or anybody I know on a moto for even 10 seconds, let alone 10 minutes. Even at 100% it's not that much. Again, maybe that's my size that I feel like it's not that much. That being said, they're clearly kind of designed to be ridden most of the time in the 20-50% range where the fun potential is maximized. At 100% you're not doing enough work and it just feels weird to me. But NOT anything like a moto or overpowered for a trail, that's just nonsense.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'd be happy to take you up on that, but motors of any kind aren't allowed on our local trails. I can put out 300w or so on my own (and I'm 150#) and when you add another 150-200W, with only an extra 20# of weight... you do the math on my power/weight ratio. I can go VERY fast with an assist - as I said, I rode a LEVO to test this. And that's 1/3 of the power that we'll see soon!

To be clear: I was also a hare scramble/enduro racer back in the day. I know very well what motos can (and can't) do, and that is why I restricted my statement to *singletrack*. On anything wide open, the moto will smoke any e-bike. 

Interestingly, I have actually raced a mountain bike against motos (at the old Cloudcroft enduro). On flat/DH singletrack, I could hold my own or even sometimes drop skilled intermediate/expert riders. And that's *unassisted*. So I have direct experience doing this!

I'm glad you are able to ride again, just as I'm glad anyone who has an ADA recognized disability can get out and enjoy trails on this type of bike. 

-Walt


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## Wheezy (Nov 1, 2003)

You're crazy, but I like you. (I LOVE those frames you're making, my roots right there!!!) But Walt, seriously, I'll SMOKE you on single track dude. Come out to Cali and we'll settle this! LOL.

A seasoned racer on a 50hp bike vs a dude on 50lb bicycle with 1hp? No chance. Our "club" events at TWMC are 90% single track. Enduro's back in the day are nothing like what we run on a monthly basis out here, all technical, every check is a tiebreaker and they lay em out so computers don't work. It wouldn't even be close, like, you'd be sitting there with rocks in your teeth wondering what happened.But it would make for a great video. You can use my levo and I'll ride my KTM.

OK, to reel that back in. I believe Type 1 bikes will be legal everywhere soon enough. I'm actually working on a "mini documentary" supporting the cause. Main point that I didn't make very clear, I don't understand the hate from some of these guys. Especially guys that hang out in EVERY SINGLE thread and poop on it.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Based on your photo, I think you are talking about desert riding. Agreed, no contest there. 

I am talking about old school wooded singletrack with lots of twists and turns (ie 2nd gear kinda stuff, not 40mph) - what most of us would go ride on a mountain bike, not a moto trail. As I said, I've got direct experience with that sort of bike vs. moto riding. 

Regardless, my point stands: an e-bike with a motivated, fit rider is going to be VERY fast. A lot faster than an unassisted one. That speed is a problem for MUTs and is the reason you don't see motos allowed many places anymore.

-Walt


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Wheezy said:


> Especially guys that hang out in EVERY SINGLE thread and poop on it.


Yes, that does start to get annoying.....


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Every post every article it always ends with the same ole e hate got a story about e bikes and puppy dogs ?? the same e hater will as you say poop on it. And they have a lot of poop that they shovel .


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Done!

Check new "sticky" at the top of the e bike forum, and spread the word...


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## Wheezy (Nov 1, 2003)

Walt said:


> Regardless, my point stands: an e-bike with a motivated, fit rider is going to be VERY fast. A lot faster than an unassisted one. That speed is a problem for MUTs and is the reason you don't see motos allowed many places anymore.
> 
> -Walt


I totally disagree on the "faster" thing. Well, kind of. On a given loop, sure you're going to turn in an overall faster time but it's all in the climbing. Well honestly climbing or even on extended flats, up to a point. But I GUARANTEE that same rider is faster everywhere else that has even a hint of downward slope on a well built Nomad or equivalent modern enduro bike.

The "closing speed" argument seems valid at face value until you break it down. I will have a section on this in the mini doc. Even at 100% boost, the type 1 e-bike shuts off at 20mph. Now, even on my XC weight weenie bike I hit 30+ mph on my regular after work rides. FASTER than a Type 1 e-bike will allow.

Which brings up what I consider to be the biggest and most important point that the general public needs to understand. We need to be very clear about the e-bike designations. Because the new E-KTM isn't the same as my turbo levo! I love the language of SB-1096 here in California. It's a great start anyway.

PS - I'll still destroy you in the wooded tight stuff


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## Wheezy (Nov 1, 2003)

NEPMTBA said:


> Done!
> 
> Check new "sticky" at the top of the e bike forum, and spread the word...


Awesome. Well done and I hope to see it enforced. So is this officially the ebike "safe space" LOL LOL LOL

I dig it and commend you on taking the initiative.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm glad to hear someone acknowledging that e-bikes are faster uphill and on the flats. And in fact, that is my point. If I can go 20mph uphill on singletrack, when before I could only go 10... that's going to be a problem for a lot of hikers and a closing speed problem on 2-way stuff for other mountain bikers. It appears you agree with that but you sort of trailed off when you started talking about it and switched to top descending speed instead (and for reference, I agree that top descending speed is no different). 

-Walt


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## Wheezy (Nov 1, 2003)

I don't see the uphill closing speed as a problem, at all. You ain't doin 20mph uphill for very long even at 100%. I switched gears to contrast the uphill closing speed vs down. Not very many 1 way trails here in CA, a few but again I don't see an increase uphill closing speed as an issue. That said, I plan to do more homework on that and maybe include a small segment. 

Great, productive conversation. Would love to sit and have a beer or 6 with you someday Walt.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Same here! I think there's a good possibility that e-bikes end up being just a great way for less fit or health compromised folks to enjoy mountain biking, and get gradually accepted everywhere. What I don't want to see happen is 750w bikes being ridden by racer bros ripping 20mph up trails full of kids and dogs and other riders. 

We'll see where we end up!

-Walt


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Wheezy said:


> I don't see the uphill closing speed as a problem, at all. You ain't doin 20mph uphill for very long even at 100%. I switched gears to contrast the uphill closing speed vs down. Not very many 1 way trails here in CA, a few but again I don't see an increase uphill closing speed as an issue. That said, I plan to do more homework on that and maybe include a small segment.
> 
> Great, productive conversation. Would love to sit and have a beer or 6 with you someday Walt.


Excellent conversation, +1, and yes the 20 mph thing is difficult to handle when I can over ride the boost yet not get up the hill due to the weight of the Levo. So I wait and stay within the spread.

Agreed on the sit down maybe someday we all get to ride together!


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