# E bikes are motorized vehicles.



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Sticky at the beginning of this section." Mt bikes are pedal powered only. E bikes have a motor, be it pedal assist or throttle assist." Would really like to get past the fact that it is a motorized vehicle, electric bike, human powered with e assist, whatever you would like to call it. It has a motor that defines it as such. E bikes are something different and need to treated as such. Not an ICE motorcycle, not a moped, those are already defined. Sure one can get into categories, class 1,2,3 etc. Or watts of 250 to 10,000. Those posting that there are not specific rules pertaining to e bikes? Almost every land manager/agency/ land owner has rules about permitted trail use. As is in their authority to ban motorized vehicles, define them, or segregate them to whatever area/trail/roads they see fit. I hate arguing the facts. It has a motor. Motorized vehicle. Next.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

But....but....but....it has wheels......


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## Capt.Ogg (Jun 5, 2015)

Ok. Next.


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## Mt.Biker E (Mar 25, 2006)

They are mopeds by definition. Either way when a trail system, state forest says no motorized and some dbag on a ebike gets access revoked for all of us I don't think the bike manufacturers are going to give a rats arse.


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

Man that was such a good post OP i'm in disbelief of your grand wisdom.

I'm going to save this post on a thumb drive and read it to my grandchildren.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^^ If only all the posters here would agree to the facts, not all do.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Do they impose a threat to your MA trails? Doubt it. Move on.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Absolutely trail threats, gee they look just like mt bikes. Lots of people, limited trails and access issues including just getting mt bikes on some trails. How you going to close pandoras box once opened?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

leeboh said:


> Absolutely trail threats, gee they look just like mt bikes. Lots of people, limited trails and access issues including just getting mt bikes on some trails. How you going to close pandoras box once opened?


By banning them outright.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

i was at a recent xc race, and there was an e-bike category. Yup.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

The ebike community has made a critical error and the time for our attack has come.

Many Bothans died to bring us this information.








There IS a motor, and it could destroy us all.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

As an Australian I laugh at how bone of you have made the connection yet that your trail advocacy is the problem and not e-bikes. It's absurd that anyone would ban a pedal assist bike for safety or trail degradation reasons. All this does is show utter incompetence at managing land.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

leeboh said:


> How you going to close pandoras box once opened?


Bingo!

And getting it open is the hard part. Once it's cracked open (despite being powered by a motor, we'll consider it to be a bicycle), it's much easier to push it wider and wider open (why 250? a little more power won't do any harm).


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

GRPABT1 said:


> As an Australian I laugh at how bone of you have made the connection yet that your trail advocacy is the problem and not e-bikes. It's absurd that anyone would ban a pedal assist bike for safety or trail degradation reasons. All this does is show utter incompetence at managing land.


 You know little of our issues. Where does the power stop? 250,750, 3,000 watts? How fast up hill closing speeds? Managing land, how's the rabbit population down there? How's that over grazing and deforestation going? Hmmm. Pedaling in a hot arid wasteland, awesome mate.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

GRPABT1 said:


> As an Australian I laugh at how bone of you have made the connection yet that your trail advocacy is the problem and not e-bikes. It's absurd that anyone would ban a pedal assist bike for safety or trail degradation reasons. All this does is show utter incompetence at managing land.


I don't see ebikers taking in part in advocacy, they'd rather coat tail on Mountain Bikers efforts.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

GRPABT1 said:


> As an Australian I laugh at how bone of you have made the connection yet that your trail advocacy is the problem and not e-bikes. It's absurd that anyone would ban a pedal assist bike for safety or trail degradation reasons. All this does is show utter incompetence at managing land.


Meanwhile, back in Australia...

'Our trails aren't built for that': eBike riders risk fines in Canberra nature parks

Pedal assist bikes that are legal here would be considered mopeds in Australia both because of their higher power and higher speed limits, so the impacts are not the same.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

leeboh said:


> It has a motor. Motorized vehicle. Next.


So true...


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## m4rki (Sep 24, 2013)

Its seems a lot are people are open to assistance in in every part of daily lives expect mountain biking.
I think the Amish are really the only ones in any real position to consider themselves purists but as they don't use computers to assist them (pun intended) i guess they don't get a voice here.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

So easy to rule up haha


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

m4rki said:


> Its seems a lot are people are open to assistance in in every part of daily lives expect mountain biking.
> I think the Amish are really the only ones in any real position to consider themselves purists but as they don't use computers to assist them (pun intended) i guess they don't get a voice here.


If you are using a motor for any propulsion, it isn't mountain biking. Because bicycles do not have motors. Just like the Amish buggies, they don't have motors. Pretty sure if you stick a motor on a Amish buggy, the Amish will no longer find it meets the requirements of their faith. Hey, you've made a good point here.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Isn't a horse basically powered by electrical impulses?

Ah Ha, the horse has been the E horse all along! We have been fooled all these years by horses posing as non powered animals!

Bad Lone Ranger!


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

GRPABT1 said:


> As an Australian I laugh at how bone of you have made the connection yet that your trail advocacy is the problem and not e-bikes. It's absurd that anyone would ban a pedal assist bike for safety or trail degradation reasons. All this does is show utter incompetence at managing land.


Says the guy who lives on a continent that is 70% desert.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

SteveF said:


> Says the guy who lives on a continent that is 70% desert.


Deserts are a natural part of the environment and can be strikingly beautiful. Most of my favorite riding and hiking have been in deserts.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Crankout said:


> i was at a recent xc race, and there was an e-bike category. Yup.


please tell us where, so I can take my suicide capsule beforehand
if I ever end up there


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

It's a question of geography. In the UK class 1 pedelecs are legally bicycles.... end of story; and can go wherever a bicycle can go. I guess in the US it's far more complicated than that.

I only ride 1 way trails, flat out, and would have zero interest in the type of trails where ebikes would likely be contentious in the US.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> please tell us where, so I can take my suicide capsule beforehand
> if I ever end up there


There were a fair amount of boo's yelled out at the awards ceremony, partially in jest.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

hobbit said:


> It's a question of geography. In the UK class 1 pedelecs are legally bicycles.... end of story; and can go wherever a bicycle can go. I guess in the US it's far more complicated than that.
> 
> I only ride 1 way trails, flat out, and would have zero interest in the type of trails where ebikes would likely be contentious in the US.


you are missing the point of this post. Just because a definition in terms of legality allows certain motorized vehicles to be treated the same as a non-motorized vehicle has no bearing on the fact that it is a motorized vehicle.


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

Maybe. But so what if it's is a motorised vehicle. If legally it's a bycicle in your region, then it's a bycicle and it doesnt matter that it's a motorised vehicle.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

hobbit said:


> Maybe. But so what if it's is a motorised vehicle. If legally it's a bycicle in your region, then it's a bycicle and it doesnt matter that it's a motorised vehicle.


No, it is to be treated as a bicycle for access purposes only, it is not a bicycle.

That is the entire point of this thread.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

hobbit said:


> Maybe. But so what if it's is a motorised vehicle. If legally it's a bycicle in your region, then it's a bycicle and it doesnt matter that it's a motorised vehicle.


 Realize that bikes and e bikes are treated differently all over the globe. And land managers and DOT( road vehicle code) treat them apart as well. Some areas in New England, (USA) will allow bikes but not motorized vehicles. Very complicated at best.


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

All an issue of semantics and context. It is very complicated at best. But if it's recognized as a bike then under that provision or law it's a bike. Sure you can argue the definition of a bike under a different context but under the trail access law it's considered the same unless they make some delineation.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^^ You mean like my local MA rules state " No motorized vehicles" something along those lines.


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

Equally, even if a motorised vehicle, this has no bearing on whether it's a bicycle or not, in certain geographical areas and under limited (peddlec) conditions. Bicycle = pedal driven vehicle; no mention of it being solely pedal driven. So if the dictionary, and local laws consider a class 1 ebike as a bicycle, then surely it is; even if only in the specific region. Otherwise were making up rules to suit the argument, maybe fs bikes aren't bikes, maybe blue ones etc.
I'll concede that an ebike can be considered a motorised vehicle but would argue this only matters in an area with posted prohibitions to motorised vehicles. Luckily in most of Europe class 1s are merely bikes.. end of story. I realise its a different situation in the US, and even between states. But as per my original post I wouldn't want to be riding trails where you have a chance of meeting others coming the other way and guess if I was in the states I would only be riding bike parks where I'm assuming ebikes would be ok. If that's not the case and ebikes would be banned in bike parks too then you all have my deepest sympathy... 😪😪


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

hobbit said:


> Equally, even if a motorised vehicle, this has no bearing on whether it's a bicycle or not, in certain geographical areas and under limited (peddlec) conditions. Bicycle = pedal driven vehicle; no mention of it being solely pedal driven. So if the dictionary, and local laws consider a class 1 ebike as a bicycle, then surely it is; even if only in the specific region. Otherwise were making up rules to suit the argument, maybe fs bikes aren't bikes, maybe blue ones etc.
> I'll concede that an ebike can be considered a motorised vehicle but would argue this only matters in an area with posted prohibitions to motorised vehicles. Luckily in most of Europe class 1s are merely bikes.. end of story. I realise its a different situation in the US, and even between states. But as per my original post I wouldn't want to be riding trails where you have a chance of meeting others coming the other way and guess if I was in the states I would only be riding bike parks where I'm assuming ebikes would be ok. If that's not the case and ebikes would be banned in bike parks too then you all have my deepest sympathy... 😪😪


Why does the definition need to say "solely pedal driven"? It also doesn't say "not rocket powered", "two wheels and only two wheels", "doesn't fly through the air", etc, etc. It says "human powered" and that's all it needs to say in regards to how it is driven, it can't list out everything that it is not.


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

It doesnt need to say solely. I didn't write the defnition, it may now be an imperfect definition given how technology has advanced but it is THE definition and as such a pedelec ebike is a bicycle. You have to comment on what the defining words actually say and not what may be inferred by the absence (or not) of other words in the definition. However, having now read the sticky on the forum re terminology I am going to bow out of this thread as the OP is merely repeating the definition that an ebike is a motorised bike from the sticky, and as such this thread contributes nothing to the discussion.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

hobbit said:


> It doesnt need to say solely. I didn't write the defnition, it may now be an imperfect definition given how technology has advanced but it is THE definition and as such a pedelec ebike is a bicycle.


Disagree. A bicycle is intrinsically human powered the same as a automobile is intrinsically non-human powered, there's no need to qualify the definition of a car with _"it's not *necessarily* non-human powered"_ because that would just be dumb semantics and lawyer speak.

Legal definitions are often steeped in ulterior motives.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

:skep:

Well, at least he read the forum rules sticky.

I just don't get it. Why can't an ebike just be an ebike?


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> Legal definitions are often steeped in ulterior motives.


Sometimes, but just as often they're sufficient to the moment and then technology changes in unexpected ways.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

hobbit said:


> Maybe. But so what if it's is a motorised vehicle. If legally it's a bycicle in your region, then it's a bycicle and it doesnt matter that it's a motorised vehicle.


Until you go from a CA park to USFS or BLM land, in which case, you might be breaking the law.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The "legally a bicycle" bit is only true where local ordinances aren't more stringent, remember. The laws that People For Bikes got passed in a number of states (including here in UT) have all had a provision that allows local authorities to determine where e-bikes can be ridden (or not). So you have to consult with the local authorities/check local laws before riding outside of your home area.

And of course USFS/BLM consider e-bikes motorized.

It's a mess right now, honestly.

-Walt


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

hobbit said:


> I'll concede that an ebike can be considered a motorised vehicle but would argue this only matters in an area with posted prohibitions to motorised vehicles. Luckily in most of Europe class 1s are merely bikes.. end of story. I realise its a different situation in the US, and even between states. But as per my original post I wouldn't want to be riding trails where you have a chance of meeting others coming the other way and guess if I was in the states I would only be riding bike parks where I'm assuming ebikes would be ok. If that's not the case and ebikes would be banned in bike parks too then you all have my deepest sympathy... 😪😪


"Bike parks" in the US typically have chairlifts. Dunno why the hell would anyone would want to take an e-bike up one.

You have my deepest sympathy for living somewhere without chairlifts.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Damn 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

chazpat said:


> :skep:
> 
> Well, at least he read the forum rules sticky.
> 
> I just don't get it. Why can't an ebike just be an ebike?


He's been battling this one since last winter or spring if I'm not mistaken.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

hobbit said:


> But as per my original post I wouldn't want to be riding trails where you have a chance of meeting others coming the other way and guess if I was in the states I would only be riding bike parks where I'm assuming ebikes would be ok. If that's not the case and ebikes would be banned in bike parks too then you all have my deepest sympathy... 😪😪


We don't need your sympathy.....bike parks are a very small % here in the states. Otherwise we do what we have been doing for decades....we pedal our bikes uphill without the need for a motor. I still don't understand the need to make mountain biking so easy.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

mtnbikej said:


> We don't need your sympathy.....bike parks are a very small % here in the states. Otherwise we do what we have been doing for decades....we pedal our bikes uphill without the need for a motor. I still don't understand the need to make mountain biking so easy.


So, you ride a fully rigid single-speed?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtnbikej said:


> I still don't understand the need to make mountain biking so easy.


E-biking isn't mountain biking, it's e-biking. They're not making mountain biking easier, they're playing a whole different game.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> So, you ride a fully rigid single-speed?


I would guess that an awful lot of folks you correspond with on MTBR do, actually.

I sometimes ride a unicycle on trails, even!

The thing is, though, none of that stuff (no matter how suspended, tubeless, geared, etc) really makes you that much faster. I can descend all but the most ferocious DH trail within 5% of the same speed on a rigid singlespeed than I can on a full squish wonderbike. And they go uphill at about the same rate unless it's insanely steep and I'm walking the singlespeed (which, since this is PC, is pretty much unheard of).

Not the case once you add a motor (I actually just posted about this here: http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/how-much-trail-do-different-user-groups-use-1055448.html).

-Walt


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> So, you ride a fully rigid single-speed?


 Sometimes, but with 3" tires. Still is not a motor. Fuel? For that I add coffee and bacon.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Sometimes, but with 3" tires. Still is not a motor. Fuel? For that I add coffee and bacon.


And so you do use technology to make your ride easier.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Red herring.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## marc40a (Aug 4, 2016)

Leeboh, I totally agree your view on this. 

We're going to get a bunch of lazy kooks on the trails and it's going to eventually limit access for everyone. 

Look at ATV's, and dirtbikes... Back in the the 80s, if I remember correctly, you could actually own one and do some riding. Nowadays, you absolutely can't ride anywhere.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> So, you ride a fully rigid single-speed?


I do.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

And I'm old. Just stow all the noise about being old and infirm. Aging out is inevitable, e-bikes aren't.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

marc40a said:


> Nowadays, you absolutely can't ride anywhere.


Not at all true.
Ours get plenty of use, even in one of the toughest areas for OHV access in the country.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> And so you do use technology to make your ride easier.


 See also, my first post. Motorized, not motorized. Clear line in the sand. Coffe and bacon have been around for years, not new tech. Got some 3" gazzolodis that are 10 yrs old for my 26er.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> And so you do use technology to make your ride easier.


He rides a bicycle.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

And a round of applause for all the serious hardcore mtbrs....


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

honkinunit said:


> So, you ride a fully rigid single-speed?


Yes and no.....however, my pedal/human powered bikes require no motors/no batteries.


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## marc40a (Aug 4, 2016)

double post


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## marc40a (Aug 4, 2016)

Gutch said:


> And a round of applause for all the serious hardcore mtbrs....


I prefer the barrier that exists to enter the sport... it keeps the crowds away. The barrier being physical fitness.

Let everyone else watch tv, fantasy football, video games or like slapheadmofo, ride their ATVs


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Honestly, the best place to start is to stop supporting mountain bike companies that are supporting the marketing of these bikes on local trails. Specialzed, Scott, Trek, Giant etc... They are a big part of the problem.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

I can't even believe this is a debate.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

marc40a said:


> or like slapheadmofo, ride their ATVs


Too funny.

What's wrong with riding an ATV (legally)?
Or doing a bit of gaming or taking in some movies/TV for that matter.


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## DirtyHun (Jan 9, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Deserts are a natural part of the environment and can be strikingly beautiful. Most of my favorite riding and hiking have been in deserts.


Agree 100%


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Gutch said:


> And a round of applause for all the serious hardcore mtbrs....


You're clueless.... This isn't about hardcore bikers being purists, it's about opening the doors to MOTORS on the trails which has never been done before for good reason. Once you allow "some" motors on the trails, what's to prevent more powerful motors on them? Which then may lead to an outright BAN on ALL mountain bikes. If you don't think that would happen, think again. Hardcore bikers have worked their asses off through the years just to get this far and have access to the trails we have now. It wasn't easy and we are still working to open up more trails and even keep the trails we have open. It's a never ending fight... and you think this is about machismo???


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Lemonaid said:


> ... and you think this is about machismo???


It definitely is for some.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> It definitely is for some.


And for some of you it's all about money....


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> And a round of applause for all the serious hardcore mtbrs....


 Thanks. No motor needed. I just go at my own pace.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

marc40a said:


> I prefer the barrier that exists to enter the sport... it keeps the crowds away. The barrier being physical fitness.
> 
> Let everyone else watch tv, fantasy football, video games or like slapheadmofo, ride their ATVs


 Sr. Slap is one of the good guys. While may we disagree from time to time, his mt bike roots run strong. We even ride some of the same trails. He has a long history of mt bike trail work and general community support. Pump track shovel time, trail work, clearing rocks in the hot sun etc. Plus he always has beers, always.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Lemonaid said:


> And for some of you it's all about money....


Some of whom? And what money am I getting? Cuz I could use some. 


You might want to do some catch-up reading around here. Probably help you avoid saying more dumb stuff. Maybe team up with marc40a; he's lost too.
:lol::lol::lol:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Sr. Slap is one of the good guys. While may we disagree from time to time, his mt bike roots run strong. We even ride some of the same trails. He has a long history of mt bike trail work and general community support. Pump track shovel time, trail work, clearing rocks in the hot sun etc. Plus he always has beers, always.


 Cheers buddy, right back at ya.

See you in a couple weeks for some chili and a couple of those aforementioned beers.

Internet MTB hardo wannabes are funny.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Thanks. No motor needed. I just go at my own pace.


So do I. But I don't have to post about my single speed rigid rig. But hey, whatever floats your boat. If the Land Managers say ebike legal on trails, then let 'em rip.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> It definitely is for some.


True that. Anybody that calls someone lazy on 2 wheels is a elitist fool.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> Honestly, the best place to start is to stop supporting mountain bike companies that are supporting the marketing of these bikes on local trails. Specialzed, Scott, Trek, Giant etc... They are a big part of the problem.


LMAO.

You left out Pivot, Commencal, Cannondale.

What are you going to ride five years from now when *every* MTB manufacturer also makes electric bicycles?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> LMAO.
> 
> You left out Pivot, Commencal, Cannondale.
> 
> What are you going to ride five years from now when *every* MTB manufacturer also makes electric bicycles?


They likely won't be making them since there is a scarcity of legal places for them that people actually want to ride.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> They likely won't be making them since there is a scarcity of legal places for them that people actually want to ride.


Your head is buried in the sand. e-MTB sales are approaching 50% of the market in some European countries. As more and more people in the US adopt ebikes for everyday riding, more and more will also adopt e-MTBs and demand access.

You honestly think this is a fad? 50% of sales?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> Your head is buried in the sand. e-MTB sales are approaching 50% of the market in some European countries. As more and more people in the US adopt ebikes for everyday riding, more and more will also adopt e-MTBs and demand access.
> 
> You honestly think this is a fad? 50% of sales?


This isn't Europe in case you didn't notice. And 50% of nothing is still nothing. And just because you make demands doesn't mean jack, especially in land use issues. Who's head is buried in the sand?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Your head is buried in the sand. e-MTB sales are approaching 50% of the market in some European countries. As more and more people in the US adopt ebikes for everyday riding, more and more will also adopt e-MTBs and demand access.
> 
> You honestly think this is a fad? 50% of sales?


You are correct it is the biggest growth in the market at the moment. But to automatically think that just because Sales are doing something in Europe has ZERO bearing on what they will do in the US.

I see this market hitting a plateau in a year or two. But honestly none of us can say for a certainty what will happen.

For commuting eBikes are fantastic, but so are motorcycles and the same thing that stops so many from commuting on a motorcycle will be the same reasons they do not commute on an eBike.

Commuters are truly the sweet spot for eBike use. The dirt is going to continue to have controversy and tighter rules.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> Honestly, the best place to start is to stop supporting mountain bike companies that are supporting the marketing of these bikes on local trails. Specialzed, Scott, Trek, Giant etc... They are a big part of the problem.


Are you going to get rid of every component made by a component manufacturer who has a special eBike line?

You can start with SRAM, Shimano and DT Swiss....

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/family/ex1#sm.0000us3jdbl5tersvkh1fvqp7gpp6
https://www.shimano-steps.com/e-bikes/europe/en/what-is-steps/mtb
https://www.missionhybrid.dtswiss.com/


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> You are correct it is the biggest growth in the market at the moment. But to automatically think that just because Sales are doing something in Europe has ZERO bearing on what they will do in the US.
> 
> I see this market hitting a plateau in a year or two. But honestly none of us can say for a certainty what will happen.
> 
> ...


Keep closing your eyes and tapping your ruby red slippers together.

Comparing an eBike to a motorcycle is like comparing a Honda Civic to a dump truck.

eBikes are much more attractive as a commuter vehicle than a motorcycle, at least in urban areas. Lower cost, lower maintenance, no insurance, no gas/oil, you can keep it in your apartment/office, you don't need a parking spot, you can take it on public transportation in many areas, dedicated bike lanes, much lighter weight and easier to handle for small people.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> This isn't Europe in case you didn't notice. And 50% of nothing is still nothing. And just because you make demands doesn't mean jack, especially in land use issues. Who's head is buried in the sand?


They sold 1.6 Million eBikes in Europe last year, and they are the *only* segment of the bicycle industry that is growing.

1.6 Million is nothing?

Wordwide sales are projected to reach $24 Billion in seven years. Billion with a "B".

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/07/13/global-e-bike-sales-expected-reach-24-3-billion-annually-2025/


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Keep closing your eyes and tapping your ruby red slippers together.
> 
> Comparing an eBike to a motorcycle is like comparing a Honda Civic to a dump truck.
> 
> eBikes are much more attractive as a commuter vehicle than a motorcycle, at least in urban areas. Lower cost, lower maintenance, no insurance, no gas/oil, you can keep it in your apartment/office, you don't need a parking spot, dedicated bike lanes, much lighter weight and easier to handle for small people.


The biggest reasons people do not commute on a bike or a motorcycle has little to do with those factors you mentioned, though I totaly agree those are very strong points for a bike or eBike over a moto in the dense cities.

People don't ride bikes to work because of:

Commuter distance (I travel 34 miles one way, and on occasion I have need to visit off-site locations)
Weather
Danger of getting killed by a texting driver
They want to text/eat/drink coffee or some other thing while driving to work.

I ride a motorcycle to work everyday and I always tout the benefits of saving time, gas and easy parking and the reactions almost always turn back to I don't want to be exposed to cars... then Weather.

I think the world would be a better place if more people rode bikes to work, but it just is not going to happen here in the US where everything is so spread out and the nation was built around the automobile.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Wordwide sales are projected to reach $24 Billion in seven years. Billion with a "B".
> 
> https://cleantechnica.com/2016/07/13/global-e-bike-sales-expected-reach-24-3-billion-annually-2025/


Lets table this discussion until 2025 then.....

I def see big sales potential in India and other markets where motorcycles are more common than passenger cars.

I do not see eBikes replacing cars here in the US at those sort of growth rates.

Again, this is a MTB forum, so huge sales in road bikes with or without electric motors is not going to automatically equate to huge sales in MTB's with or without motors.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> They sold 1.6 Million eBikes in Europe last year, and they are the *only* segment of the bicycle industry that is growing.
> 
> 1.6 Million is nothing?
> 
> ...


 Mountain bikes, motorized and not are a small segment of that.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> Your head is buried in the sand. e-MTB sales are approaching 50% of the market in some European countries. As more and more people in the US adopt ebikes for everyday riding, more and more will also adopt e-MTBs and demand access.
> 
> You honestly think this is a fad? 50% of sales?


Links?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> [*]Danger of getting killed by a texting driver


This is what's kept me off the road on two wheels, motor or not. 
Screw that.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> True that. Anybody that calls someone lazy on 2 wheels is a elitist fool.


 With a motor? Does that include segways? They make an off road version, ya know. In the ultimate irony, the rich British buyer of segway drove his off a cliff and died. Sad and darwin awardee like. Elitist for trying to distinguish between a motorized sport and a human powered one, not. Lazy comes to mind. Seems like a good quote.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Lazy comes to mind. Seems like a good quote.


Guarantee I can wear your ass out riding dirt bikes hard.
Same goes for riding DH and using a chairlift to get to the top.

Say when.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

See how much trouble these ebikes cause?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Guarantee I can wear your ass out riding dirt bikes hard.
> Same goes for riding DH and using a chairlift to get to the top.
> 
> Say when.


 I was just quoting someone. Specifically mt bike vs ebike. I got no throttle twisting skills or air time skills. None. I was thinking quarter horse style laps. Ya know? Barrels, small obstacles, some singletrack, maybe a skinny or two. Hot laps, bike vs e bike. Beer and hot dogs between. Puke or pass out, done. Need a sponsor( beer) and hecklers though to make it work.


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

I still want to know why e-bikes are acceptable to some on trails but a g-bike (bike with a small gas-powered motor) is not acceptable?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

deuxdiesel said:


> I still want to know why e-bikes are acceptable to some on trails but a g-bike (bike with a small gas-powered motor) is not acceptable?


Because it has a motor. Oh, wait!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

deuxdiesel said:


> I still want to know why e-bikes are acceptable to some on trails but a g-bike (bike with a small gas-powered motor) is not acceptable?


Noise and Pollution.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> Noise and Pollution.


There is a cross-over, some high-power e-bikes (e-motos) are noisier than some low power ICE-powered motos.

Motos could be made very quiet; part of their appeal is the sound they do make.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Moe Ped said:


> There is a cross-over, some high-power e-bikes (e-motos) are noisier than some low power ICE-powered motos.
> 
> Motos could be made very quiet; part of their appeal is the sound they do make.


True, but the question was about "acceptable" eBikes on MUTS. I am not away of any trails where those super high powered eMoto's are allowed on a MUT. Generally speaking the question was referring to Class 1 or 2 eBikes.

At least that is what I discerned from the question.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> True, but the question was about "acceptable" eBikes on MUTS. I am not away of any trails where those super high powered eMoto's are allowed on a MUT. Generally speaking the question was referring to Class 1 or 2 eBikes.
> 
> At least that is what I discerned from the question.


In this context your point is correct. And no argument about pollution. Noise, pollution and trail degradation; 3 strikes and you're out.

But now this brings up that in some parts of this land "multi-use" means motos too; i.e. some USFS single track. My relatives up in Montucky are always bragging about the fine multi-use trails they can shred with their quads.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

The definition of Multi-use that most users here on MTBR are using is for Pedestrians/Equestrians/Bicyclists.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> I was just quoting someone. Specifically mt bike vs ebike. I got no throttle twisting skills or air time skills. None. I was thinking quarter horse style laps. Ya know? Barrels, small obstacles, some singletrack, maybe a skinny or two. Hot laps, bike vs e bike. Beer and hot dogs between. Puke or pass out, done. Need a sponsor( beer) and hecklers though to make it work.


Some sort of psuedo-CX race geared towards bicycles doesn't really prove any sort of point about being 'lazy' though, does it? Put in a day of riding trails on a moto, ATV or lift served MTB and I guarantee you'll be all sorts of sore and tired. And happy.

There's more than one way to have fun in the dirt.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

There definately is. Some of the best mtbrs I've rode with are X moto guys. I used to have my own 1.5 mile moto track at my house, tons of fun and PLENTY of cardio. **** your heart rate spikes every lap! You guys have some nice trails in MA? My friends ride Kingdom Trails in VT. Good stuff. Moto days over, too many broken bones - but damn fun run.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> There definately is. Some of the best mtbrs I've rode with are X moto guys. I used to have my own 1.5 mile moto track at my house, tons of fun and PLENTY of cardio. **** your heart rate spikes every lap! You guys have some nice trails in MA? My friends ride Kingdom Trails in VT. Good stuff. Moto days over, too many broken bones - but damn fun run.


My son is pulling me back into moto stuff a bit. Good times. 

MA trails are plentiful and so are talented and dedicated trailbuilders.
We've got fun stuff everywere; nice thing about being somewhere that's been setttled for hundreds of years, every little plot of woods seems to have some sort of trail. Most New England tends to be a lot more technical than KT, so you've gotta learn to love rocks, roots and tight twisties. Which we do.
:thumbsup:


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Gutch said:


> And a round of applause for all the serious hardcore mtbrs....


Also known as "not lazy people"


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Your head is buried in the sand. e-MTB sales are approaching 50% of the market in some European countries. As more and more people in the US adopt ebikes for everyday riding, more and more will also adopt e-MTBs and demand access.
> 
> You honestly think this is a fad? 50% of sales?


Europe gets its wrong sometimes and has to do a walk back because they move forward with stuff without much fore thought because they don't have the spectre of litigation hanging over them like here. Diesel motors are a great example. Watch in a couple years when issues with eMtbs on mixed use trails become more and more prevelant, US oponents to eMtbs will give a big "told you so".


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Congrats, you peddle your bike. Nice. So do I. I also ate a few Doritos, watched the tornado news on the couch, then ripped my road bike. Still lazy?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Congrats, you peddle your bike. Nice. So do I. I also ate a few Doritos, watched the tornado news on the couch, then ripped my road bike. Still lazy?


Ok, you are far, far from the only one, but it is "pedal" dammit! You would think a bunch of cyclist could properly spell the word but it seems it is spelled wrong the majority of the time.

Now back to our previously scheduled arguing&#8230;


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

chazpat said:


> Ok, you are far, far from the only one, but it is "pedal" dammit! You would think a bunch of cyclist could properly spell the word but it seems it is spelled wrong the majority of the time.
> 
> Now back to our previously scheduled arguing&#8230;


Trying to raise cash to buy me a fancy new pedelec; I pedaled my pedal bike over the swap meet to peddle some spare pedals.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Ok, you are far, far from the only one, but it is "pedal" dammit! You would think a bunch of cyclist could properly spell the word but it seems it is spelled wrong the majority of the time.
> 
> Now back to our previously scheduled arguing&#8230;


Damn phone spell chick!?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

For years it was Pedal Dammit for me, now its Pivot Dammit. DW Link is very efficient.


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## RamblerBill (Nov 29, 2015)

What I cant understand about this debate is the apparent lack of pride and competitiveness from the e-bike proponents. In my mind there is a sense of accomplishment that comes from riding a course and knowing that you (the rider) provided the energy. Adding a motor to the mix removes the ability to see who is the best athlete since it now depends on who has the most assist. Seems like a core principle that is applied to all athletics and the addition of e-bikes looks much like cheating to me. 

On the road as a commuter where there is no athletic interest. Sure, there is a place. For folks who are disabled and want to still participate - perhaps you could get me there. For mainstream use I cant see the appeal of e-bikes whatsoever.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Go ride one, hard. Then see #1 how much you are hammered. #2 Measure the smile on your face and lastly, how much Trail you have covered.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Getting back on topic, how much effort you expend on an ebike, or mountain bike, has no bearing on if an emtb is motorized or not. Nor whether it deserves access or not. Or if you are worthy or not. They're all just toys in the end.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

This is true, I don't know for certain but, probably none of us getting paid to ride.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RamblerBill said:


> What I cant understand about this debate is the apparent lack of pride and competitiveness from the e-bike proponents. In my mind there is a sense of accomplishment that comes from riding a course and knowing that you (the rider) provided the energy. Adding a motor to the mix removes the ability to see who is the best athlete since it now depends on who has the most assist. Seems like a core principle that is applied to all athletics and the addition of e-bikes looks much like cheating to me.
> 
> On the road as a commuter where there is no athletic interest. Sure, there is a place. For folks who are disabled and want to still participate - perhaps you could get me there. For mainstream use I cant see the appeal of e-bikes whatsoever.


Not everyone goes around trying to race and/or prove themselves all the time. 
Lots of people just ride for fun. Most I'd imagine.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Gutch said:


> This is true, I don't know for certain but, probably none of us getting paid to ride.


I do. Pfffft. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

That's cool man.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

RamblerBill said:


> What I cant understand about this debate is the apparent lack of pride and competitiveness from the e-bike proponents. In my mind there is a sense of accomplishment that comes from riding a course and knowing that you (the rider) provided the energy. Adding a motor to the mix removes the ability to see who is the best athlete since it now depends on who has the most assist. Seems like a core principle that is applied to all athletics and the addition of e-bikes looks much like cheating to me.
> 
> On the road as a commuter where there is no athletic interest. Sure, there is a place. For folks who are disabled and want to still participate - perhaps you could get me there. For mainstream use I cant see the appeal of e-bikes whatsoever.


How many Class 1 ebikes like a Specialized Levo have you ridden?

Oh, none.

And that's why "I cant see the appeal of e-bikes whatsoever."


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I'm sort of on the same page as RamblerBill, except that my competition and "pride" is only with myself. I don't race and I don't use Strava, but I do push myself on every ride to be better than the last time I was on the mountain.

...and before you say it, Honkin, I have ridden a Levo. Climbing was essentially effortless. (admittedly, I didn't ride very far)


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I used to get paid to ride bikes. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, of course.

I don't think anyone here cares about the "cheating" aspect of e-bikes. I mean, lots of things in life are cheating, but generally with stuff you are just doing for fun (which is what 99% of us are doing) you can't "cheat" anyone but yourself.

I don't understand that aspect of the e-bike debate, honestly. I get passed out on the road by people on all manner of vehicles all the time (including human powered 'bents and tandems on the flats) but I don't get upset about it. Because I'm not in a race with anyone (except maybe myself) and there's literally nothing at stake.

Now, I've got my problems with e-bikes for trail access reasons. But that has zero to do with "cheating" or modern society being too lazy or whatever.

-Walt


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

I think there is one fundamental fact that all of this keeps coming back to:

_Bicycles are, in essence and by just about every definition, human-powered machines. _

Any two-wheeled vehicle that isn't human-powered, whether partially or entirely, is simply _not_ a bicycle.

That, for many of us, is the spirit of what a "bicycle" truly is, and anything that attempts to dilute or pervert that definition simply doesn't qualify. It isn't about "elitism" or being narrow-minded, it's simply that an apple is an apple, and not a watermelon.

If I continue to insist that a skateboard is not a helicopter, am I being elitist? No, I'm acknowledging fact-based reality and the generally accepted definition of what a skateboard is. It's not a personal judgement of skateboarders nor helicopter pilots.

The continued intellectual gymnastics and shoddy relativism in an attempt to de-rationalize the above are ridiculous and tiresome. You wanna ride a trail moped? Great, but it's not a bicycle. Quit calling it one.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

It's officially called an ebike. Industry proven and internet wide proven. Anything different is NOT correct.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Walt said:


> I used to get paid to ride bikes. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, of course.
> 
> I don't think anyone here cares about the "cheating" aspect of e-bikes. I mean, lots of things in life are cheating, but generally with stuff you are just doing for fun (which is what 99% of us are doing) you can't "cheat" anyone but yourself.
> 
> ...


👍Good post


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Smithhammer said:


> I think there is one fundamental fact that all of this keeps coming back to:
> 
> _Bikes are, in essence and by just about every definition, human-powered machines. _
> 
> ...


I've owned 4 Harley Davidsons and they were "bikes".

Try to be more eloquent; "bike/bikes/biker/bikers/biking" is just too general to mean much.

FWIW in California one needs to be specific about "electric bicycles" if talking about "e-bikes" possibly legal to be used on MTB trails.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Walt said:


> I used to get paid to ride bikes. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, of course.
> 
> I don't think anyone here cares about the "cheating" aspect of e-bikes. I mean, lots of things in life are cheating, but generally with stuff you are just doing for fun (which is what 99% of us are doing) you can't "cheat" anyone but yourself.
> 
> ...


I completely agree, "cheating" is a very weak argument against e-bikes and should not even be part of the discussion. The crux of the problem with them is land manager's ability to limit how much power they can have on a given trail. As batteries gain more capacity and motors get more powerful there will come a time when motorized mountain bikes (e-bikes for you purists) will look virtually identical to regular mountain bikes. When and if that happens what will prevent other interests from petitioning for an outright ban on all mountain bikes for the sake of everyone else who shares the trails? Who's to say equestrians and hikers and runners will be ok with having to share their trails with motorized bikes? Not to mention other environmental interest groups who will seek to preserve their localized interests.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chuckha62 said:


> I'm sort of on the same page as RamblerBill, except that my competition and "pride" is only with myself. I don't race and I don't use Strava, but I do push myself on every ride to be better than the last time I was on the mountain.


So why would do you feel it's your place to say to anyone 'if you're not constantly competing against yourself or others, you shouldn't be allowed on the trails"?

There's a lot more to enjoying riding trails than trying to be the best at exercising. If I want to ride slow and take beginners along regularly and stop and drink a beer or two in a scenic spot, why is that anyone else's business? Hell, I might even take a frigging nap in the sun beside the lake in the middle of a ride. Should I be banned for not being obsessed with faster, faster, faster every minute I'm on a bike?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

No doubt, nice to just "bug out" and take it all in. I used to push and push, which whatever, no worries. I have good riding friends that every ride I do with them, road or mtn turns into a testosterone slug fest! Then buddies that just ride 4 fun and eat and drink afterwards. I choose the latter..


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Lemonaid said:


> I completely agree, "cheating" is a very weak argument against e-bikes and should not even be part of the discussion. The crux of the problem with them is land manager's ability to limit how much power they can have on a given trail. As batteries gain more capacity and motors get more powerful there will come a time when motorized mountain bikes (e-bikes for you purists) will look virtually identical to regular mountain bikes. When and if that happens what will prevent other interests from petitioning for an outright ban on all mountain bikes for the sake of everyone else who shares the trails? Who's to say equestrians and hikers and runners will be ok with having to share their trails with motorized bikes? Not to mention other environmental interest groups who will seek to preserve their localized interests.


Except for the small percentage of cyclists that are paying attention, they already look identical to mtbs. You're dreaming if you think 99.9% of trail users will be able to tell these: E-MOUNTAINBIKE Readers' Survey 2017 - These are the winners | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine

from these: https://www.redbull.com/us-en/best-enduro-mountain-bikes-2017

In the real world, the emotional arguments made for and against emtbs have no bearing on a land managers decision, at least among the ones I know and from what I've heard having had a seat at the table during policy discussions regarding ebikes. So, bringing up, "it's cheating", "they're not true to the spirit of the sport", "we need them so slow riders can keep up", "so injured/out of shape people can get back in shape", "so old people can keep riding", "it'll save the industry", "they're coming, get used to it" will only get you a polite nod and they'll move on.

It all comes down to impact, both to the land and other users. Since the industry and emtb riding community are refusing to budge from their stance that they're identical to mtbs while at the same time embracing technology that is increasingly divergent from the impact of a typical mtb rider, I'm not surprised than many land managers aren't gung ho to let them on their trails.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Gutch said:


> It's officially called an ebike. Industry proven and internet wide proven. Anything different is NOT correct.


I don't really care what lingo some marketing department came up with the re-brand the moped. A bike is purely human-powered.



Moe Ped said:


> I've owned 4 Harley Davidsons and they were "bikes".
> 
> Try to be more eloquent; "bike/bikes/biker/bikers/biking" is just too general to mean much.


And I've owned various motorcycles over the course of my life as well. Obviously, we're talking about _bicycles_ here.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Are you in the moped forum? I can't seem to find it. Oh, "ebike" forum.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Gutch said:


> Are you in the moped forum? I can't seem to find it...


Oh believe me - I've found it.


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## RayFeiler (Jan 16, 2017)

Some people are calling these E-Bikes.
https://www.altamotors.co/#the-future-of-fast


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

RamblerBill said:


> What I cant understand about this debate is the apparent lack of pride and competitiveness from the e-bike proponents. In my mind there is a sense of accomplishment that comes from riding a course and knowing that you (the rider) provided the energy. Adding a motor to the mix removes the ability to see who is the best athlete since it now depends on who has the most assist. Seems like a core principle that is applied to all athletics and the addition of e-bikes looks much like cheating to me.
> 
> On the road as a commuter where there is no athletic interest. Sure, there is a place. For folks who are disabled and want to still participate - perhaps you could get me there. For mainstream use I cant see the appeal of e-bikes whatsoever.


 Best athlete? Only applies unless you are racing. Most don't. Not an e bike fan for off road. But can't see the appeal? Really? A whole generation of young folk are growing up glued to a screen, tv, phone, video game. Less physical activity for some. General obesity for many, a car centric culture. And the dreaded participation trophy? Yikes. The American obsession with the need for speed, motors and going fast? For some it will be getting a motor to make it easy instead of doing all the hard work of actually pedaling hard, getting in shape and working out. The appeal of those former dirt bike riders getting shut out of trails, now have back way to get on those same trails. Like I said, not my cup of tea but I see the very wide appeal. Hence the growing sales #'s for motorized e bikes.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Smithhammer said:


> I think there is one fundamental fact that all of this keeps coming back to:
> 
> _Bikes are, in essence and by just about every definition, human-powered machines. _
> 
> ...


Where it says "bike" in the above, it should say "bicycle". Make that change and I 100% agree (and I suspect that is what SH meant).

Some other poster was going on about how quadbikes are bikes and accessing me of using that reference; I had to look it up because I had no idea what a "quadbike" was. Apparently it is what they call quad runners somewhere other than in the US. That has to be one of the stupidest things.

And yes, "ebike" is marketing; eMoped would be a much harder sell and stand much less chance of being approved to ride in bike lanes and paths and ducking insurance, etc requirements. I imagine the ebikers don't want to admit that since moped has a negative connotation; which kind of proves my point, harder to sell. I'm not saying mopeds are good or bad, I'm just saying they don't have all that good of an image in the minds of the consumer.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

RayFeiler said:


> Some people are calling these E-Bikes.
> https://www.altamotors.co/#the-future-of-fast


That's an e-bike in the loosest sense of the word (Harley = bike) but not an electric bicycle.

(I'd call it an e-moto)

Pretty sweet IMHO; a bit pricey but considering capability it's cheap compared to a Levo.

Perhaps the e-moto crowd believes that now they've eliminated "noise and pollution" from motorcycling they'll be welcomed back to areas once banned from.

Dream on.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

RayFeiler said:


> Some people are calling these E-Bikes.
> https://www.altamotors.co/#the-future-of-fast


They are. What would you call them?


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

chazpat said:


> Where it says "bike" in the above, it should say "bicycle". Make that change and I 100% agree (and I suspect that is what SH meant).


Yeah, I had thought it was clear, but I continue to under-estimate the deflective argument capabilities of this crowd.

Change made.


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## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

*Doesn't really matter how this forum classifies e-bikes.*

In Indiana, you can not use a rifle on public lands to hunt deer (shot gun only). On private lands you can use a shot gun and some (but not all) calipers of rifle. The point is that our land management agencies have the ability to differentiate however they wish. The hunting community doesn't argue that they should be able to hunt deer with a rifle on public land because a rifle and a shot gun are both guns.

Let's say a land management agency has policy/rules/code that allow "bicycles" on a trail. Then that the State Legislator passes legislation that classifies a pedal assist bike (how ever they define it) as a bike. When pedal assist bikes show up on mountain bike trails, the land management agencies can rewrite their policies to differentiate between pedal only and pedal assist bikes. And then they can allow pedal only bikes and ban pedal assist bikes as they see fit. They will likey simply change "bike trails" to "human powered bike trails".

I don't see sneaking e-bikes into public land through clever legal definitions as being successful in the long run. Land managers do not like it when anyone tries to work around them.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

"This crowd" didn't name them Ebikes. The same manufacturer's you've ridden for years did. Start screaming at them.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Gutch said:


> "This crowd" didn't name them Ebikes. The same manufacturer's you've ridden for years did. Start screaming at them.


Completely missing my point. Again.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Best athlete? Only applies unless you are racing. Most don't. Not an e bike fan for off road. But can't see the appeal? Really? A whole generation of young folk are growing up glued to a screen, tv, phone, video game. Less physical activity for some. General obesity for many, a car centric culture. And the dreaded participation trophy? Yikes. The American obsession with the need for speed, motors and going fast? For some it will be getting a motor to make it easy instead of doing all the hard work of actually pedaling hard, getting in shape and working out. The appeal of those former dirt bike riders getting shut out of trails, now have back way to get on those same trails. Like I said, not my cup of tea but I see the very wide appeal. Hence the growing sales #'s for motorized e bikes.


I understand what you are saying but being a Parent of a 9 and 12yr old I can tell you times are different, and if the kids aren't fluent in computers or phones, they will be obsolete in many of "their" future professions. I may direct my kids to the trades as there is an obvious lack of quality tradesman. My kids pedal their bikes and Ebikes. I can take my daughter 12, on a 30 mile mtn road ride via a Turbo. Opens up more time and experience's spent together.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> They are. What would you call them?


You really can't tell the difference?

Seriously?

It would be great if these lead to restoring some moto access IMHO. 
Motos are fun as hell.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

But back on topic Leeboh, I agree Ebikes are motorized. I've never said differently.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Smithhammer said:


> Completely missing my point. Again.


At this point I believe Gutch is secretly an anti e-bike mole sent here to turn people's opinions against e-bikers by portraying them as egotistical trolls.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> I understand what you are saying but being a Parent of a 9 and 12yr old I can tell you times are different, and if the kids aren't fluent in computers or phones, they will be obsolete in many of "their" future professions. I may direct my kids to the trades as there is an obvious lack of quality tradesman. My kids pedal their bikes and Ebikes. I can take my daughter 12, on a 30 mile mtn road ride via a Turbo. Opens up more time and experience's spent together.


 Point taken and correct. Fluent yes. My kids are out of school now. But less sports for some as well as soooo may hours playing mindcraft or what have you. Balance is nice, doesn't always happen.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> You really can't tell the difference?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> ...


Agreed. They all have their place, just not every place.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> So why would do you feel it's your place to say to anyone 'if you're not constantly competing against yourself or others, you shouldn't be allowed on the trails"?
> 
> There's a lot more to enjoying riding trails than trying to be the best at exercising. If I want to ride slow and take beginners along regularly and stop and drink a beer or two in a scenic spot, why is that anyone else's business? Hell, I might even take a frigging nap in the sun beside the lake in the middle of a ride. Should I be banned for not being obsessed with faster, faster, faster every minute I'm on a bike?


Whoa! Infer much? I simply stated where my satisfaction lies. You ride for whatever reason you ride for.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Lemonaid said:


> At this point I believe Gutch is secretly an anti e-bike mole sent here to turn people's opinions against e-bikers by portraying them as egotistical trolls.


Dammit dude, you got me!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I understand what you are saying but being a Parent of a 9 and 12yr old I can tell you times are different, and if the kids aren't fluent in computers or phones, they will be obsolete in many of "their" future professions. I may direct my kids to the trades as there is an obvious lack of quality tradesman. My kids pedal their bikes and Ebikes. I can take my daughter 12, on a 30 mile mtn road ride via a Turbo. Opens up more time and experience's spent together.


Yup.

I ride all sorts of fun machines with my 13 y.o. son, and also play video games, watch TV/movies and encourage his interest in taking, editing and sharing videos with his friends and peers. And I can still guarantee he can handle a bicycle better than most if not all of us posting here.

























Don't understand why people think there's only one way for people to enjoy themselves. Pretty sad.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Braaap!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yup.
> 
> I ride all sorts of fun machines with my 13 y.o. son, and also play video games, watch TV/movies and encourage his interest in taking, editing and sharing videos with his friends and peers. And I can still guarantee he can handle a bicycle better than most if not all of us posting here.
> 
> ...


Damn, miss BMX. Grew up racing it, until the damn half pipes and girls came into play!


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Don't understand why people think there's only one way for people to enjoy themselves. Pretty sad.


I think you're smart enough to know that this _isn't_ what anyone on the other side of the argument from you is actually saying.

Or, if this _is_ actually what you think is being debated here, then it explains a lot.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> You really can't tell the difference?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> ...


Between the emtbs and the emotorcycles? Of course I can tell the difference.

Can you tell the difference between these:

























Of course you can. They are all very different but they are all bicycles. You said yourself that you've referred to your motorcycle as a "bike". If it is powered by electricity, would it not be an ebike?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I sort of see e-bikes for kids as equivalent to letting them just type and use spell check vs. handwriting and learning to spell on their own. In the modern world, handwriting and spelling aren't necessary... but it's good for your brain and your motor skills and sets you on a course to *do things that are hard for you* in the future. 

I want my kids to be able to try really hard... and fail and try again. I can have as much quality time with them as I want, if I go slower/ride shorter/hang out and have snacks. Would it be kinda rad to put them on an e-bike and get a rad ride for myself in? Sure. But it wouldn't really be good for anyone in the long run.

-Walt


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Walt said:


> I sort of see e-bikes for kids as equivalent to letting them just type and use spell check vs. handwriting and learning to spell on their own. In the modern world, handwriting and spelling aren't necessary... but it's good for your brain and your motor skills and sets you on a course to *do things that are hard for you* in the future.
> 
> I want my kids to be able to try really hard... and fail and try again. I can have as much quality time with them as I want, if I go slower/ride shorter/hang out and have snacks. Would it be kinda rad to put them on an e-bike and get a rad ride for myself in? Sure. But it wouldn't really be good for anyone in the long run.
> 
> -Walt


Dude, really? Wow. I can ride my Cannondale and my daughter can go with Dad on a hard trek in the mtns. 30 miles on an ebike is no joke for a 12 yr old girl with 4500' of climbing. But whatever works for the parents choice.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Of course you can. They are all very different but they are all bicycles. You said yourself that you've referred to your motorcycle as a "bike". If it is powered by electricity, would it not be an ebike?


First, no, I never said that, you confused me with another poster.
Second, that electric MX rig is clearly not an e-bike unless you live to play dorky convoluted interment semantic games, which I don't.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I teach my kids to work SMART, not HARD.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Walt said:


> I sort of see e-bikes for kids as equivalent to letting them just type and use spell check vs. handwriting and learning to spell on their own. In the modern world, handwriting and spelling aren't necessary... but it's good for your brain and your motor skills and sets you on a course to *do things that are hard for you* in the future.
> 
> I want my kids to be able to try really hard... and fail and try again. I can have as much quality time with them as I want, if I go slower/ride shorter/hang out and have snacks. Would it be kinda rad to put them on an e-bike and get a rad ride for myself in? Sure. But it wouldn't really be good for anyone in the long run.
> 
> -Walt


What would be so bad about it? 
My kid rides moto more than bicycles these days. BFD. He's still out having fun in the dirt, getting lots of fresh air and exercise, hanging with friends, all that good stuff. He'll put in countless hours working on tricks and dialing in jumps and whatnot. You've got enough moto experience to know that there's plenty of skills being developed by playing that game. And if anyone thinks throwing around a 40+ HP, 350+ pound machine for hours on end when you're barely 100lbs soaking wet yourself isn't getting any exercise or doesn't require highly developed motor skills, they're simply ignorant.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Smithhammer said:


> I think you're smart enough to know that this _isn't_ what anyone on the other side of the argument from you is actually saying.


What 'other side of the argument'?
That anyone who isn't a hardcore mountain biker is a lazy POS?

You really missed that? Might want to go back and re-read.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Gutch said:


> I teach my kids to work SMART, not HARD.


Omitting either one probably isn't a recipe for success.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

True, but you can work hard your entire life and when your ready for retirement you don't have health and short lived. Or you can work smart, make $ check out early and enjoy some time. I'm an ex business owner and yeah, put in a lot of hard work for a (relative) short period of time. Don't want to see my kids working for the man, that's all. Absolutely nothing to do with Ebikes, so I'll drop it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Damn, miss BMX. Grew up racing it, until the damn half pipes and girls came into play!


BMX rules, half pipes and all!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^Dig the RedLine. Had a chrome Redline Proline. Sweet bikes. I bought a Redline Yaris SS for goofing around. Glad to see they are still in business and haven't gone box store.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> ^Dig the RedLine. Had a chrome Redline Proline. Sweet bikes. I bought a Redline Yaris SS for goofing around. Glad to see they are still in business and haven't gone box store.


Yeah, they've got a huge presence in the race scene still.
Cool to be able to get a 15lb bike for a few hundred bucks.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I've had a few Redlines over the years, had lots of fun on my Monocog. 

Maybe someday there'll be pedal-assist single speeds, lol!


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> I've had a few Redlines over the years, had lots of fun on my Monocog.
> 
> Maybe someday there'll be pedal-assist single speeds, lol!


Nice!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> I've had a few Redlines over the years, had lots of fun on my Monocog.
> 
> Maybe someday there'll be pedal-assist single speeds, lol!


If it's chrome, I just might buy it!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> First, no, I never said that, you confused me with another poster.
> Second, that electric MX rig is clearly not an e-bike unless you live to play dorky convoluted interment semantic games, which I don't.


Ok, sorry, though I do find it difficult to believe you have never referred to a motorcycle as a "bike". I've seen articles where they refer to electric motorcycles as "electric bikes" and I suspect at times that will be shorten to ebikes; unless they fear being confused with what we normally think of when using the term ebike and really avoid doing so.

My point being, a purely human powered bicycle comes in many forms, as does an electric motor powered bike. Now I'm sure someone will cry "but it has pedals"; to me, it makes more sense to draw the line between powered 100% by the rider / has a motor rather than requires some pedaling / does not require any pedaling.

I have nothing at all against motorcycles, nor ebikes when ridden where motorized vehicle are allowed.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

chuckha62 said:


> Nice!


Just hit the 'No Puke' setting and clean that climb without loosing your lunch! 



slapheadmofo said:


> If it's chrome, I just might buy it!


I passed it on to another local rider for $200 and got back what I put into it, sorry.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> What would be so bad about it?
> My kid rides moto more than bicycles these days. BFD. He's still out having fun in the dirt, getting lots of fresh air and exercise, hanging with friends, all that good stuff. He'll put in countless hours working on tricks and dialing in jumps and whatnot. You've got enough moto experience to know that there's plenty of skills being developed by playing that game. And if anyone thinks throwing around a 40+ HP, 350+ pound machine for hours on end when you're barely 100lbs soaking wet yourself isn't getting any exercise or doesn't require highly developed motor skills, they're simply ignorant.


Sure. But why add a motor to a bike to make the climbs easier? If he's into moto, that's great (and much more exercise/skill than most realize). But if he's into bikes, let him ride the damn bike, not put a motor on it. It's a different activity.

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Gutch said:


> Dude, really? Wow. I can ride my Cannondale and my daughter can go with Dad on a hard trek in the mtns. 30 miles on an ebike is no joke for a 12 yr old girl with 4500' of climbing. But whatever works for the parents choice.


I have done the equivalent by just slowing myself down. Used to ride with my pregnant wife on a cargo bike loaded with rocks. We both enjoyed ourselves and got a good workout.

I mean, more power to you. Is your daughter ever going to want to ride a normal bike? What will she do if her battery dies somewhere? I want my kids to be very, very self reliant - and that (to me) means not taking shortcuts for them just so *I* can have more fun. I can go ride on my own if I want to haul ass or cover lots of ground.

I could tell my 5 year old how to spell words he wants to write, but when he comes up with his own (erm, pretty hilarious) spelling, he's learning a lot more and also building up the mental ability to do things without assistance.

It's important to me, but if the only way to get a kid out riding is on an e-bike, then it's certainly better than nothing.

-Walt


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Walt said:


> But if he's into bikes, let him ride the damn bike, not put a motor on it. It's a different activity.
> 
> -Walt


Totally agree - the motor makes e-biking a different game than mountain biking. 
I just don't feel that games played with motors are necessarily a bad thing.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Walt said:


> I have done the equivalent by just slowing myself down. Used to ride with my pregnant wife on a cargo bike loaded with rocks. We both enjoyed ourselves and got a good workout.
> 
> I mean, more power to you. Is your daughter ever going to want to ride a normal bike? What will she do if her battery dies somewhere? I want my kids to be very, very self reliant - and that (to me) means not taking shortcuts for them just so *I* can have more fun. I can go ride on my own if I want to haul ass or cover lots of ground.
> 
> ...


Yeah, she rides a bicycle when we do short jaunts and an ebike when she wants to see where dad rides and we wanna do an epic. It's all good stuff.


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## RayFeiler (Jan 16, 2017)

chazpat said:


> They are. What would you call them?


E-Moto works for me 

https://thumpertalk.com/articles/electric-motorcycles-are-coming-r722/


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RayFeiler said:


> E-Moto works for me
> 
> https://thumpertalk.com/articles/electric-motorcycles-are-coming-r722/


Just saw one at the powersports shop up the street from work.
I think I might have to arrange a test ride.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

E-motos? No more ~brap brap braaaaaap??


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

RayFeiler said:


> E-Moto works for me
> 
> https://thumpertalk.com/articles/electric-motorcycles-are-coming-r722/


Maybe so, but the article keeps referring to them as electric bikes. Does look like fun.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Lemonaid said:


> E-motos? No more ~brap brap braaaaaap??


Always BRAAAP!


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