# '88 Ritchey Ultra or '86 Fat Chance ?



## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*'88 Ritchey Ultra or what is it? (re-titled)*

If you had your "druthers" which would you pick?...both with quality repaints, both with original fork, built with "period correct" components. Very clean but not on full restorations, more built to ride and enjoy yet appear vintage (I hope that makes sense). I've got a line on both at about the same pricepoint. I mentioned the Fat before but it's 200 miles away, the Ultra is 20 miles and I'll probably see it tomorrow.

Thanx as usual guys :thumbsup:


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## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

Too close to call. Dont yo already have a ritchey ascent? I'd have to know the build. Both are in your size too. Post some pics. CT


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Which ever one fits you.


But I'd say the Ritchey. I'm bias.


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

I actually have two Ascents, an 86/87 that's too big,(20" and soon to be for sale)..and an 88 that's just right, 17". Would riding the Ultra (also 17"), with the Prestige tubing be a noticable difference over the Ascent? I think the geometry of the Ultra is a little more aggressive, correct?

The only pics available are of the Fat and are here... http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=369129 ...it used to be ameybrooks until about 6 months ago.


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

Fat Chance.

East Coast babay!


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

Putting my emeotions aside Time to put some thought into it, I believe the FAT would be more of a rare species, as they may have been fewer produced. Many are found here in the east, but the may be a rare bird where you are. 

Example: I've never seen a Potts or a Cunningham in real life. Well, not counting the one Alice B Toestraps raced at Mt Snow years back...


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

get the prettier one. color is the second most important thing in a bike... right after fit.


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## kb11 (Mar 29, 2004)

KDXdog said:


> Putting my emeotions aside Time to put some thought into it, I believe the FAT would be more of a rare species, as they may have been fewer produced. Many are found here in the east, but the may be a rare bird where you are.
> 
> Example: I've never seen a Potts or a Cunningham in real life. Well, not counting the one Alice B Toestraps raced at Mt Snow years back...


From Firstflights page there were at least 846 Fats made in '86, that is way more than Ritchey made in '88 and the Ultra was just one of many models. Also TR had a hand in building every Ritchey, not the case with Chris Chance and Fat's. I am biased though


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

kb11 said:


> From Firstflights page there were at least 846 Fats made in '86, that is way more than Ritchey made in '88 and the Ultra was just one of many models. Also TR had a hand in building every Ritchey, not the case with Chris Chance and Fat's. I am biased though


plus it seems ritcheys were better built than Fats. at least the sommerville Fats.

i have one and i am not going to piss on it. i love it. great handling. great geometry for technical slow riding.


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

West Coast propaganda indeed!

I've seen more broken Ritchey's than Fats.

Buy both bikes!


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## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

Stan are you going to ride either or just store them in your pool? Both bike will be about the same. Now if the ritchey was a supercomp you would not be asking.

I am partial to ritchey though.


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

take the RITCHEY!


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## kb11 (Mar 29, 2004)

Stan, if you get the Fat let me know where the Ritchey is, its just my size  If your looking for a rider the Ultra would probably be more responsive with its 70/74 angles. The Ultras were the poor mans SuperComps, same tubing/angles/componets, just tig'd and lacked the fillet brazed stem and peaked seat tube.


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

Didn't that Fat have holes drilled in the seat tube?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

*Are you kidding?*



KDXdog said:


> West Coast propaganda indeed!
> 
> I've seen more broken Ritchey's than Fats.
> 
> Buy both bikes!


I dont care which one Stan buys, but really, I've seen tons of Ritcheys but never once seen a broken one... I havent seen very many Fats but I have seen a lot that are rusted out...

Just sayin...

How 'bout ride both, buy the one that feels better.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

kb11 said:


> Stan, if you get the Fat let me know where the Ritchey is, its just my size  If your looking for a rider the Ultra would probably be more responsive with its 70/74 angles. The Ultras were the poor mans SuperComps, same tubing/angles/componets, just tig'd and lacked the fillet brazed stem and peaked seat tube.


what size is the ritchey?

you have enough ritcheys!


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*yes...*



Fatmikeynyc said:


> Didn't that Fat have holes drilled in the seat tube?


 It was ameybrooks bike until 6-8 months ago. I don't know why the holes are there?


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*but............*

The Ritchey is my size and if I get it, I'll be selling both my Ascents. You're right, I only need one  I also already have a Fat so I guess I shouldn't be looking at another  .


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## kb11 (Mar 29, 2004)

stan4bikes said:


> It was ameybrooks bike until 6-8 months ago. I don't know why the holes are there?


As I recall it was because of a stuck seatpost but I could be wrong. The Fat is a real classic Stan, better get it :thumbsup: now where is the Ritchey?


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*ideally yes...*



Fillet-brazed said:


> How 'bout ride both, buy the one that feels better.


 If the Fat was closer, that would be the best thing to do. Long distance sales..ya gotta take chances..


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

Well, I picked up the '88 Ultra today, sorry no pics yet it's raining too hard. It's British Racing Green, not original but 7 coats of Imron done pretty well. Needs some cleanup but it's got XT derailers and hubs, rear XT U-brake w/sharktooth, Matrix SingleTracks with DT spokes, Ritchey Skinwalls, Shimano cranks and shifters, front Suntour Cantis, Ritchey Forcelight stem and bars and a rigid fork. It could use a little parts switching to make it more period correct but it's ok as is too. 

The '86 Fat as far as I know is still available, several of you have inquired about it. I will post the info later this week if no one complains about me OUTING it. So if you know where it is and are working on it LET ME KNOW!


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## jh4rt (Sep 5, 2007)

*Cl*

Thanks Stan....

I saw it go back up on CL today. I think... you made the right choice.

----j


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## jack lantern (Jun 23, 2006)

I saw that one listed, Stan, you got a heckova good deal. I thought about trying to get it just based on general principal, pricewise, but talked myself out of it as I already have an 89 Ultra. Enjoy! :thumbsup:


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*picture time, pre-cleaning*

OK guys, here you go. Not really too exciting but I'm a happy camper. I already have some M700 brake levers( or Ritchey Logics?), Ritchey bar, XT thumb shifters and XT front brakes ready to mount when I put the rigid fork back on (the RST has gotta go! and soon!) . I'm also thinking about my Ritchey Logic cranks, I think that would be a good touch. The paint is good enough that I may search out some decals, it would look better named I think.


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## jack lantern (Jun 23, 2006)

That thing is Kermit the Frog green! Much cooler than the British racing green the seller described. SWEET!


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

what did they do to this bike?!


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

will look real cool with that original fork and some 'cals


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*good news...bad news...*



colker1 said:


> what did they do to this bike?!


The good news is that RST fork is history. even though it's 34 degrees outside, I couldn't stand it any longer :thumbsup:

The bad news is I didn't realize it was a "loose bearing" headset :madman: Why are the spaces in between the boards on your deck always just a little bigger than things you drop :madmax:

But I put the rigid fork on anyway without bearings for now (don't worry, I won't ride it) just to see what it looked like...MUCH BETTER


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

That doesn't look like an Ultra to me. I have seen an Ultra with a peaked seat collar, that distinctive joining at the rear dropouts nor the collars on the head tube. What is the serial #?


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*you know, that's seems right..*



bushpig said:


> That doesn't look like an Ultra to me. I have seen an Ultra with a peaked seat collar, that distinctive joining at the rear dropouts nor the collars on the head tube. What is the serial #?


 I think I read somewhere that Ultra's didn't have peaked collars..did I get fooled? The serial number is A6B0032....Ultra's should have a "U" in there, right?


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Have a look at the Ultra's on oldmountainbikes.com. Neither the 87 nor 89 have the details your frame has. The A is a designation from the Japanese manufacturer so doesn't decide anything (Toyo?). Bike looks more like an Ibis to me, or something else.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

bushpig said:


> Have a look at the Ultra's on oldmountainbikes.com. Neither the 87 nor 89 have the details your frame has. The A is a designation from the Japanese manufacturer so doesn't decide anything (Toyo?). Bike looks more like an Ibis to me, or something else.


an Ascent with reinforcement rings, or an Aspen with a u brake maybe?


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

bushpig said:


> Bike looks more like an Ibis to me, or something else.


I did some exploring and found this thread. The headtube re-enforcement detail and the seattube lugging look "identical" to the Ibis. I don't know squat about the Ibis brand, would this be a good thing if it turned out to be one? 

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=353454&highlight=ibis


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Have a look at Avion details. The joins near at the rear dropouts are still funky though. Don't look like typical Japanese construction.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

weird. it looks like an Ascent except for those headtube rings. Those rear dropouts canted like that are Ritchey. Is the seat tube ovalized at the bb?


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> weird. it looks like an Ascent except for those headtube rings. Those rear dropouts canted like that are Ritchey. Is the seat tube ovalized at the bb?


FB - the dropouts appear to be rotated down more than on the Ascents on oldmountainbikes. I thought that Ritchey canted them so that the top lined up with the seat stay while these rotate down from the seatstay.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

bushpig said:


> FB - the dropouts appear to be rotated down more than on the Ascents on oldmountainbikes. I thought that Ritchey canted them so that the top lined up with the seat stay while these rotate down from the seatstay.


yeah, I havent gone to look, but it does look like theyre canted more than Tom normally does. (This is done for more chain wrap).

Another mystery bike maybe. If the seat tube is ovalized I will say Ritchey Ascent. I think I have seen an Ascent with the head tube rings. Its foggy.


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

Fillet-brazed said:


> weird. it looks like an Ascent except for those headtube rings. Those rear dropouts canted like that are Ritchey. Is the seat tube ovalized at the bb?


yup, the seat tube is ovalized and the cable guides on the bottom bracket are brazed on. The headtube rings look just like those in the Ibis picture, were they "stock" framebuilding items?

Any other picture angles that would help? I haven't checked the dropouts for any markings, will do that when I get home.

thanx guys...


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## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

does that rst fork have a bontrager crown?


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

ckevlar said:


> does that rst fork have a bontrager crown?


I thought that too, it may be . Would there be an ID mark on it?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

deore xt pedals..hmmmmm. are you keeping them?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

stan4bikes said:


> I thought that too, it may be . Would there be an ID mark on it?


bontrager logo?


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*crown and pedals and chainstay length....*

I took a look at the crown and there's no decal but it looks like an RS1 Bonti crown 

and no, the pedals are staying right here, thak you very much 

QUESTION...how do you measure chainstay length? from the middle of the dropout to the bottom bracket shell? If thats how this one is 16 3/4" if that helps identify it.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

stan4bikes said:


> I took a look at the crown and there's no decal but it looks like an RS1 Bonti crown
> 
> and no, the pedals are staying right here, thak you very much
> 
> QUESTION...how do you measure chainstay length? from the middle of the dropout to the bottom bracket shell? If thats how this one is 16 3/4" if that helps identify it.


you measure from hub axle to BB axle.

pedals... you are SOOO selfish.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

I'm thinking Ibis Custom...

Look at the front page of http://www.mtb-kataloge.de/Bikekataloge/PDF/Ibis/ca1990.pdf

Same head tube rings and filleted fastback stays.

130 or 135 rear spacing?


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

richieb said:


> I'm thinking Ibis Custom...
> 
> Look at the front page of http://www.mtb-kataloge.de/Bikekataloge/PDF/Ibis/ca1990.pdf
> 
> ...


That is what I was thinking too but US made Ibis don't have letters in the serial number.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

I suppose if could be an Avion X or XH...but I really WANT it to be a custom...

But I'm sticking with the Ibis...


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*more info*



richieb said:


> I'm thinking Ibis Custom...
> 
> Look at the front page of http://www.mtb-kataloge.de/Bikekataloge/PDF/Ibis/ca1990.pdf
> 
> ...


1" headtube, 68mm bottom shell, 135 spacing. Presently 7 speed but I don't know how much is original. I'm trying to contact the seller for more info.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

135 spacing and u-brake make it likely 89-90 methinks.

Also, if you go to the mtb-kataloge site and look atthe 1988 brochure, you'l recognize some head tubes there, too.

What are the top tube/seat tube lengths?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

bushpig said:


> That is what I was thinking too but US made Ibis don't have letters in the serial number.


yeah, I thought Ibis custom too until that asian serial number. Its a weird one. Does Ibis ovalize the seat tube on the Avion?


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

The seat tube is 16"c-c, 17" c-top with a 26.8 seatpost and the top tube is about 21 1/2"...keep it goin guys!


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

stan4bikes said:


> The seat tube is 16"c-c, 17" c-top with a 26.8 seatpost and the top tube is about 21 1/2"...keep it goin guys!


Just checked two Ibis Customs.

85-86: different headtube rings, different seat cluster (not scalloped), horizontal dropouts, round seat tube

87: same head tube rings, same seat cluster, same dropouts but not canted, round seat tube

Both have 3 digit serial numbers.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

My Avion had a 26.6 seat tube. And there's no baseball in the serial #...so I think that rules that out.

the serial on FirstFlight's Avion is 7L0079 - not really close to yours, huh...

I say build it and ride it and see if it rides the way you want...if it doesn;t, then flog it. if it does, it's a custom I*****ey!

rb


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

Shoulda bought the FAT!!!:thumbsup: 

Maybe it's something north of the border, didn't Rocky Mountain do something Ritchy-ish?


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

alright all you ibis freaks. what the heck is this. dual rear brakes(mounts at least), LD stem. see it on the train all the time. keep meaning to offer dude some moolah


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

hollister said:


> alright all you ibis freaks. what the heck is this. dual rear brakes(mounts at least), LD stem. see it on the train all the time. keep meaning to offer dude some moolah


oooh. Thats a cool one. Might be a hard one to wrestle away from the owner since he's got it all dialed in for his needs, but definitely worth a try.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

nice.. and it gets ridden. leave it alone.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> oooh. Thats a cool one. Might be a hard one to wrestle away from the owner since he's got it all dialed in for his needs, but definitely worth a try.


HI-E, no logo ck, slicks,fenders,rack, and lock mounts.

a couple of bills and a new commute bike is what i'm thinking. i wonder though, why the u mounts. drag brake or something?


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

colker1 said:


> nice.. and it gets ridden. leave it alone.


I dunno - I think it would be very happy sitting on as shelf in NYC


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

bushpig said:


> I dunno - I think it would be very happy sitting on as shelf in NYC


you should see the FB chained to the bus stop up the street

still wondering what the dual brake mounts are all about.

did we ever figure out what stans "new" bike was?


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## esilvassy (Jul 25, 2006)

On the ibis on the train, looks like the front quick release might not be in the right position...


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*a little more info..*

I talked to the seller today and got a teeny bit more info. He got the frame years ago from a friend in the Bay Area who only rode Ritcheys along with his friend who only rode Salsa's. The bike was originally white with either black or blue decals (which jives with Ultra). He mentioned that he used to work in a shop down that way and "knew" Ross Shafer (who apparently would help out with items/donations to the shops racers).

The frame was painted about 10-12 years ago by someone who was starting up a bike painting business. The seller also has a late 80's Schwinn KOM that was painted in a multi color scheme to show the varieties of techniques the painter could do.

The seller seems like a real straight up guy so I have no reason to doubt what he has told me. He feels it was probably ordered from Ritchey with the "custom" touch's to suit the buyers fancy.


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

That makes sense. 

Cool find!

rb


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

hollister said:


> still wondering what the dual brake mounts are all about.


East vs. West coast riding conditions. 

Or maybe just an added option at the request of the first owner?


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

esilvassy said:


> On the ibis on the train, looks like the front quick release might not be in the right position...


Surprising how many people use the lever as a handle to turn the skewer and tighten the nut :skep:

STAN! You acquired a bike that stumped the experts and you didn't take any smacks because of it's lack of pedigree! You've arrived:thumbsup: You can now run with the big dogs


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

azjeff said:


> Surprising how many people use the lever as a handle to turn the skewer and tighten the nut :skep:


nope. i see it all the time


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Or maybe just an added option at the request of the first owner?


Bingo!


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

*maybe mines an '86 Ultra?*

Does anyone have an '86 Ritchey catalog? The one on "oldbikes" is a little fuzzy but from that and other pics I've found I think the '86 Ultra had a peaked seat lug. If you could look and maybe scan the pic of the bike (it's white which matches the sellers description) I would appreciate it..:thumbsup:


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## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

hey stan. take a look at the rear brake bridge near the seat cluster. is it fillet or tigged?


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

ckevlar said:


> hey stan. take a look at the rear brake bridge near the seat cluster. is it fillet or tigged?


The bridges on the seat and chainstays appear to be filleted. It has a U-brake on the chainstays. The front triangle is all tigged except for the seatstays to the seattube cluster,they are filleted. The chainstays are tigged (for strength?)


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## -Anomie- (Jan 16, 2005)

stan4bikes said:


> Does anyone have an '86 Ritchey catalog? The one on "oldbikes" is a little fuzzy but from that and other pics I've found I think the '86 Ultra had a peaked seat lug. If you could look and maybe scan the pic of the bike (it's white which matches the sellers description) I would appreciate it..:thumbsup:


It does look like it's mildly peaked, and the dropouts look to be canted more like yours, but the cut-out in the dropout looks like it might be a different shape. I just enlarged the scan of the '86 catalog on oldmountainbikes.com, so it's still really grainy, but it looks a lot closer than anything in the '88 catalog. One thing that doesn't match up is the chainstay length. I think you said yours measures to 16.5" (correct me if I'm wrong), but the '86 Ultra is listed as having 17.4" c-stays. If you measure all the tubes an compare them to geometry chart, you can probably confirm whether on not it's an Ultra (or even a Ritchey at all) from the late '80's.


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

-Anomie- said:


> It does look like it's mildly peaked, and the dropouts look to be canted more like yours, but the cut-out in the dropout looks like it might be a different shape. I just enlarged the scan of the '86 catalog on oldmountainbikes.com, so it's still really grainy, but it looks a lot closer than anything in the '88 catalog. One thing that doesn't match up is the chainstay length. I think you said yours measures to 16.5" (correct me if I'm wrong), but the '86 Ultra is listed as having 17.4" c-stays. If you measure all the tubes an compare them to geometry chart, you can probably confirm whether on not it's an Ultra (or even a Ritchey at all) from the late '80's.


 I measured more carefully and the chainstay (17.4") and toptube (21.5") measurements match up :thumbsup: . I don't know if the fork is original but the wheelbase and ground clearance are a little off (about 1/2" on each). The two other things that throw me are the scalloped headtube rings but I guess someone could have spec'd them in and the other is the dropouts don't say Ritchey (or anything).


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## kb11 (Mar 29, 2004)

stan4bikes said:


> I measured more carefully and the chainstay (17.4") and toptube (21.5") measurements match up :thumbsup: . I don't know if the fork is original but the wheelbase and ground clearance are a little off (about 1/2" on each). The two other things that throw me are the scalloped headtube rings but I guess someone could have spec'd them in and the other is the dropouts don't say Ritchey (or anything).


Stan, my vote is for a '86 Ultra  , Ritchey dropouts didnt arrive till '91


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

stan4bikes said:


> I don't know if the fork is original but the wheelbase and ground clearance are a little off (about 1/2" on each). (or anything).


a different fork will mess up w/ those numbers. they are totally dependant on fork and tire volume.


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