# I raced a turbo Levo against top local racers... and got smoked.



## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

At our local Wednesday night XC race (at an OHV park, btw), Specialized had Turbo Levo's available to demo. I've wanted to see how a mere mortal like me (49 year old, better than average Expert class racer) would fare against the fastest guys that show up (called "Pro/Expert" at our race series) by "cheating" with an ebike. I got permission from everyone and off we went. 4 laps... which took 11+ minutes to 12+ minutes each to complete. Only 5 of the regular studs showed up, but 2 of them left me and the other 3 in the dust. 100% human power for the win!

The Levo certainly allowed me "beat" a few guys who's times are usually several minutes faster than mine (in previous week races), but because the pedal assist turns off at 20mph, I could not pedal that heavy bike fast enough to keep up with the 2 fastest dudes, who finished 44 seconds and 65 seconds respectively ahead of me. I was less than a minute ahead of the other three dudes.

I think we need to prohibit elite level riders on our trails. They can go too fast :cornut:


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Empty_Beer said:


> At our local Wednesday night XC race (at an OHV park, btw), Specialized had Turbo Levo's available to demo. I've wanted to see how a mere mortal like me (49 year old, better than average Expert class racer) would fare against the fastest guys that show up (called "Pro/Expert" at our race series) by "cheating" with an ebike. I got permission from everyone and off we went. 4 laps... which took 11+ minutes to 12+ minutes each to complete. Only 5 of the regular studs showed up, but 2 of them left me and the other 3 in the dust. 100% human power for the win!
> 
> The Levo certainly allowed me "beat" a few guys who's times are usually several minutes faster than mine (in previous week races), but because the pedal assist turns off at 20mph, I could not pedal that heavy bike fast enough to keep up with the 2 fastest dudes, who finished 44 seconds and 65 seconds respectively ahead of me. I was less than a minute ahead of the other three dudes.
> 
> I think we need to prohibit elite level riders on our trails. They can go too fast :cornut:


Will you have an opportunity to race it again, unrestricted? Not that anyone in meat space would ever do that to theirs. s/


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Empty_Beer said:


> At our local Wednesday night XC race (at an OHV park, btw), Specialized had Turbo Levo's available to demo. I've wanted to see how a mere mortal like me (49 year old, better than average Expert class racer) would fare against the fastest guys that show up (called "Pro/Expert" at our race series) by "cheating" with an ebike. I got permission from everyone and off we went. 4 laps... which took 11+ minutes to 12+ minutes each to complete. Only 5 of the regular studs showed up, but 2 of them left me and the other 3 in the dust. 100% human power for the win!
> 
> The Levo certainly allowed me "beat" a few guys who's times are usually several minutes faster than mine (in previous week races), but because the pedal assist turns off at 20mph, I could not pedal that heavy bike fast enough to keep up with the 2 fastest dudes, who finished 44 seconds and 65 seconds respectively ahead of me. I was less than a minute ahead of the other three dudes.
> 
> I think we need to prohibit elite level riders on our trails. They can go too fast :cornut:


 I've been reading here that having riders going uphill faster than everyone else can be dangerous due to the faster closing speeds that others do not expect. How do these elite racers deal with the dangers created by their faster speeds and greater ability to go faster due to higher skills when they ride public trails? If they can ride at ebike speeds uphill aren't they just as much of a hazard as an ebike to others on the trail who will not know how fast they are approaching?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It would depend a lot on the course. On a totally flat course, you probably wouldn't beat pros at all (or even fast amateurs), because with the assist off, you're on your own and elite riders are going to be going well over 18mph on the straighter parts. 

If it's a pure hillclimb/pure descent loop, you'd do awesome, on the other hand, because you'd beat the top guys up the climb by a large margin and then just have to hold your advantage on the DH (which would be easy unless you're a horrible descender). 

-Walt


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Elite riders are by definition one percenters, no way to buy into that club and therefore elite riders on the trail will always be a rare sighting.

As far as speed goes I'm sure there would be diminishing returns as rider fitness increases but average or less than average riders will see the most gain. The end result would be higher average speeds on trails.

Gaining several minutes on an 11 minute lap is significant.

This is e-bike infancy and the Levo is just one bike, faster machines are available now that don't look much different and it's a pretty sure bet that hotter machines will be forthcoming as the sport develops and technology improves.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> I've been reading here that having riders going uphill faster than everyone else can be dangerous due to the faster closing speeds that others do not expect. How do these elite racers deal with the dangers created by their faster speeds and greater ability to go faster due to higher skills when they ride public trails? If they can ride at ebike speeds uphill aren't they just as much of a hazard as an ebike to others on the trail who will not know how fast they are approaching?


Well.... Elite racers can deal with high speeds. They're never a hazard. E-bike riders, on the other hand, turn into complete idiots as soon as they jump on the bikes, regardless of their skill level off the e-bike.


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

AGarcia said:


> Well.... Elite racers can deal with high speeds. They're never a hazard. E-bike riders, on the other hand, turn into complete idiots as soon as they jump on the bikes, regardless of their skill level off the e-bike.


Are you calling me an idiot for throwing a leg over an ebike and racing it, completely in control???


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> Will you have an opportunity to race it again, unrestricted? Not that anyone in meat space would ever do that to theirs. s/


Why would I do what ebike 1 percenters do?


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Elite riders are by definition one percenters, no way to buy into that club and therefore elite riders on the trail will always be a rare sighting.
> 
> As far as speed goes I'm sure there would be diminishing returns as rider fitness increases but average or less than average riders will see the most gain. The end result would be higher average speeds on trails.
> 
> ...


I gained several minutes over FOUR 11+ to mostly 12+ minute laps (not several minutes per lap), but still couldn't completely bridge the gap between my normal times and the fastest times. The strongest mt. bikers are still faster than the well above average fitness/skillset people putting max effort on an ebike. At least that's what this experiment showed me.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Empty_Beer said:


> Are you calling me an idiot for throwing a leg over an ebike and racing it, completely in control???


Hahaha! No. Sorry, sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet I guess. I was channelling my inner Walt. Walt and others on this forum propagate the notion that otherwise normal riders become idiots when getting on an e-bike, and climbing on an e-bike is very dangerous to others that might be using the trails.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

AGarcia said:


> Well.... Elite racers can deal with high speeds. They're never a hazard. E-bike riders, on the other hand, turn into complete idiots as soon as they jump on the bikes, regardless of their skill level off the e-bike.


 I was thinking more about how the other riders would deal with oncoming traffic that was going 3Xs as fast as what they expected. It has been said here many times that this is a major concern as far as safety goes with adding ebikes to the mix: climbers going faster than expected causing collisions.

If this is truly a valid concern shouldn't the elite rider also be restricted from MUTs like eMTBs since they are presenting the same hazard to others? And if they don't pose a risk to the others on the trail with their high speeds why do ebikes?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> I was thinking more about how the other riders would deal with oncoming traffic that was going 3Xs as fast as what they expected. It has been said here many times that this is a major concern as far as safety goes with adding ebikes to the mix: climbers going faster than expected causing collisions.
> 
> If this is truly a valid concern shouldn't the elite rider also be restricted from MUTs like eMTBs since they are presenting the same hazard to others? And if they don't pose a risk to the others on the trail with their high speeds why do ebikes?


From the first line of the first post; "At our local Wednesday night XC race (at an OHV park, btw)".


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> I was thinking more about how the other riders would deal with oncoming traffic that was going 3Xs as fast as what they expected. It has been said here many times that this is a major concern as far as safety goes with adding ebikes to the mix: climbers going faster than expected causing collisions.
> 
> If this is truly a valid concern shouldn't the elite rider also be restricted from MUTs like eMTBs since they are presenting the same hazard to others? And if they don't pose a risk to the others on the trail with their high speeds why do ebikes?


Great questions. There are really 2 answers:

-On a 10% climb, a pro/elite rider might be able to do 8-10mph. A non-pro will go 5-7mph or something if they're trying hard. If you triple the available power (I've done this to test it out on a LEVO) you can go 15+mph on that sort of climb. So it's not the case that the climbing speeds are no faster than a pro. They are in fact a LOT faster than pros can manage. And yes, I know that you don't *have* to go that fast. But you can, and people do/will.

-Generally elite/pro riders don't go full gas on MUTs unless they're way out in the middle of nowhere or the trail is being used specifically for a race/closed to other users. Going fast/hard is for remote trails or bike park/directional stuff.

I don't ride full speed on any of my local trails very often because it's generally not safe to do so. I do like to hit them fast at night - but that's a different story since I'm usually the only one out there (and you can see my lights, even through the trees, from miles away, so there's no concern about surprising anyone).

Finally, pro level riders are one in a few thousand (if that). If you made everyone that speed and turned them loose on any moderately popular trail system, you'd not like the results.

Hopefully that helps.

-Walt


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Mountain bikers are faster than moto's so I should be able to ride my dirt bike in public parks.
Your argument is meaningless. Electric bikes have an motor and are motorized, this is the problem with them.

Well the motor is small-so what. 50cc bikes have small motors too.
Mountain bikers are just as fast- Maybe under perfect condition, but not generally.
ebikes are mountain bike. Nope, they are not.
Go fight for your own access like everyone else is.
Crazy that Mikes bikes has a whole spread of ebikes with Zero places to ride them within 50 miles.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

alexbn921 said:


> Go fight for your own access like everyone else is.


 I live in California and I don't have to. The fight is over and we won. The MUTs where I ride consider my Class 1 to be a bicycle......


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Walt said:


> Great questions. There are really 2 answers:
> 
> -On a 10% climb, a pro/elite rider might be able to do 8-10mph. A non-pro will go 5-7mph or something if they're trying hard. If you triple the available power (I've done this to test it out on a LEVO) you can go 15+mph on that sort of climb. So it's not the case that the climbing speeds are no faster than a pro. They are in fact a LOT faster than pros can manage. And yes, I know that you don't *have* to go that fast. But you can, and people do/will.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for a serious answer to a serious question.

If I get the gist of your post, the elite riders choose not to ride at full speed in areas where they could put others at risk out of courtesy. Is this any different from expecting ebikers to also do the same: ride in a manner that does not endanger others. Are you certain that 100% of elites do this or are you just hoping that is so and are you certain that even 5% of ebikers will not or are you just fearing that is so...? All it will take is one irresponsible person from either group to cause an incident that could result in injury and trail closure.

It seems to me that it boils down to the responsibility of the individual as there are no regulations to prevent one of these elites from riding 100% wherever and whenever they want. So are the guys from your group (elite riders) more trustworthy or responsible than the guys from my group (eMTBers)? If that's what you think, upon what do you base this? Have you met or encountered a similar number of eMTBers as elite riders to make an accurate judgement of either groups responsibility level?

Since any bike can be ridden in a manner that is dangerous to others on the trail, we already expect the individual to have a minimum level of responsibility towards others and if they do not there are mechanisms to punish them. So why can't we do the same with Class 1 and 2 eMTBs: ban the rider who breaks the rules and not assume that riding a specific class of bike (eMTB) will irresistibly compell their rider to be a reckless jerk. And if they are reckless jerks, deal with them like the MTB community deals with those sorts of riders today. Surely the MTB community is able to ostracize or expell those who consistently violate norms, aren't they? Just apply the same mechanisms to eMTBers that do the same. Self-policing is always preferable to actual Policing, and if that's not enough the LEOs are always the fallback.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> .


You're pleading to the wrong folks. Seriously. Your advocacy is wasted here, your time advocating would better spent with land managers and agencies. Until official policy is changed, rules and laws are amended, abolished or adjusted all of your arguments are moot. You may or may not have legitimate points to bring to bear but this is not the vehicle to do it. Form an advocacy group and go get your access just like every other group has and does.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> I live in California and I don't have to. The fight is over and we won. The MUTs where I ride consider my Class 1 to be a bicycle......


That's great. Seriously. I'm all for you to have access. I live in the bay area and all ebikes are considered motorized. This includes the paved trails as well as all dirt. Keep up the good fight.
edit
It doesn't seem ethical to sell these bike around here without a single place to ride them. The clueless riders are only going to get themselves in trouble. The ones that aren't clueless are the ones I'm even more worried about.

I have will never oppose ebikes access, but I do think ebikers are going about it the wrong way. Denying that they have a motor doesn't put you in a good place to negotiate. Once you accept that your riding a motorbike, then you can go after trails that will accommodate them. They are a special kind motorbike and should be regulated differently.
My personal anger against them is they are threatening my access to the sport I love. There seems to be: "I'm entitled too ride anywhere bikes have fought to ride just because I want too. " It's selfish and it brings the hammer down on us.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

No, elite riders aren't inherently better people (I think the whole Lance saga proved that!)

There are nice people, there are jerks, etc. Some of them ride too fast on open trails and scare/anger other trail users. Some of them cause wrecks by riding too fast. Some are super polite.

But the population of elite mountain bike racers is tiny. Maybe a few hundred people in the entire US? Even if you're counting really fast amateurs it's unlikely there's more than one or two in your town, out of thousands upon thousands of mountain bikers. And even they can only go 8mph up a steepish climb, not enough to scare even the most timid granny or contribute much closing speed vs. a 5mph non-pro. 

If you gave everyone the ability to go considerably faster on the climbs than even the fastest pro, you'd have an unpleasant situation for basically everyone - without a fundamental rethink of how we build/use MUTs. You'd need (at the very least) to redesign a lot of areas for better sight lines and probably widen the trails overall to allow 2-way passing at higher speeds. If you ride some moto trails that are laid out this way you can get a sense of how that might work. 

-Walt


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Great post Empty Beer. I think it is time to divide the ebike forum and let the purists whine amongst themselves. I checked both of my Levos with the GPS and they cut out 17 mph. Oh the horror! The post about people that are not pro level and they are going to get an ebike are go about roosting the trails are completely unfounded. Do they not know that you have to have skills to ride fast in the dirt on skinny tires? The other day I was out with the wife on her Levo. She is still learning the bike. We had to pull off to side of a trail that was covered with hikers and let ten mountain bike riders (riding in a group) fly past us at racing speed. CX bikes are also popular in the Salt Lake area, and they also fly past us like we are not there.

Lets talk about handling during uphill speed for a minute on the Levo for minute. The Levo rides really low. Pedal strikes are a real danger on that bike. Climbing technical single track takes some real finesse to keep the pedals from hitting on rocks. Trails that are rutted or veeed out are a real challenge also. I've hit rocks so hard on my Levo I can't believe the egg beaters haven't broken off. I think platforms would be a big mistake on that bike. Two weeks ago I was riding uphill on the Levo. The front tire washed out on a corner and I broke my leg. The 27.5 X 3.0 front tire washed out like it was on ice. My theory is that when climbing under that situation the front suspension is totally unloaded and I was pedaling really hard and using the motor of course. In that situation, on a moto, you wouldn't be pedaling so you would be in a different position in the seat and the additonal motorcycle weight and big knobbies would keep you on the trail whereas the Levo isn't going to hold traction at speed. (at least with those balloon tires that is comes with)

<rant on>
I find it remarkable that so many people on this forum don't understand the revolution that is coming.* First, they lob all ebikes into one category.* Huge mistake.* A low powered Levo is not the same thing as a kit someone is putting on some old stump jumper is not the same thing as an emoto.* Second, they assume the general public is as opposed to electric motors as they are to gas motors.* My experience talking to hikers is just the opposite.*I've stopped to talk with many hikers and they are thrilled to find out the bike has a battery. Third, purists assume people that have ebikes don't want to exercise and that they just want to roost the trails.* Even if you had a bike that could roost the tire, do you know how many times you can roost a 2.1 bicycle tire before the tread is gone?* It is laughable I assure you.* Super high speed bicycles?* Again laughable.* All I can say is that "combination" is crazy dangerous and the lucky biker will sooner or later be the recipient of a Darwin award.* Do people even know what kind of gear you have to wear to ride at speed in the dirt?* Todays MX bike is a thing of perfection.* Are we to believe a 50 lb bike with bicycle components (brakes, tires, cassettes, 11sp chain)* will replace a 230 lb* MX go anywhere climb anything dirt demon?* Again the idea is laughable.* Fourth, the purists say ebikers are not lazy and we do want to exercise.* I was in great shape when I bought my Levo.* So why did I want one?* To ride farther,* to ride in harder places, to cut asphalt riding time when trying to get back to the dirt, to eliminate the need for shuttle cars, to keep my heart rate at a lower level and still get a workout, to stay ahead of adult asthma.* I used to cough for days after a hard ride and now I don't have that problem anymore. * Ebikes are great tools.* Fifth, forum posters are only guessing at who is buying bikes like the Levos.* They are totally wrong.* Who do you think is plunking down* $5000 -$9000?* Hooligans? Dirt bags? No, working professionals or retired working professionals are buying the Levos.* Sixth, uphill speed on the Levo is greatly exaggerated.* On flat or semi flat land, sure you can hit the governor.* I've done some testing with the Levo using a bike computer on very long asphalt grades checking the speeds of other bikers before I pass them.* On a 6% grade other bikers were around 5 mph and the Levo was around 10 mph with me standing on the pedals and using full motor torque.* If the regular bike was 4 mph then the Levo was 8 mph.* On mostly flat trails the governor holds you at 17 mph and then everyone passes you.* When you are up against the governor you can pedal like crazy and you can't get any faster.* It takes a decent downhill to get past the governor and even then the gearing on the 1 X 11 doesn't allow for pedaling at very fast speeds anyway.
<rant off>
Thanks for reading. Cheers


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

giant warp said:


> .


tl/dr


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Giant Warp said:


> Great post Empty Beer. I think it is time to divide the ebike forum and let the purists whine amongst themselves. I checked both of my Levos with the GPS and they cut out 17 mph. Oh the horror! The post about people that are not pro level and they are going to get an ebike are go about roosting the trails are completely unfounded. Do they not know that you have to have skills to ride fast in the dirt on skinny tires? The other day I was out with the wife on her Levo. She is still learning the bike. We had to pull off to side of a trail that was covered with hikers and let ten mountain bike riders (riding in a group) fly past us at racing speed. CX bikes are also popular in the Salt Lake area, and they also fly past us like we are not there.
> 
> Lets talk about handling during uphill speed for a minute on the Levo for minute. The Levo rides really low. Pedal strikes are a real danger on that bike. Climbing technical single track takes some real finesse to keep the pedals from hitting on rocks. Trails that are rutted or veeed out are a real challenge also. I've hit rocks so hard on my Levo I can't believe the egg beaters haven't broken off. I think platforms would be a big mistake on that bike. Two weeks ago I was riding uphill on the Levo. The front tire washed out on a corner and I broke my leg. The 27.5 X 3.0 front tire washed out like it was on ice. My theory is that when climbing under that situation the front suspension is totally unloaded and I was pedaling really hard and using the motor of course. In that situation, on a moto, you wouldn't be pedaling so you would be in a different position in the seat and the additonal motorcycle weight and big knobbies would keep you on the trail whereas the Levo isn't going to hold traction at speed. (at least with those balloon tires that is comes with)
> 
> ...


Good rant. I agree with your riding impressions of the Levo, as I also own one. Last week I rode it everyday up and down the entire beach and it was so damn fun, I felt like a kid again with extremely strong legs. IMO it is the perfect exploration/ beach/ ski resort bike (not just the downhills) My local singletrack loop will always be ripped on my Jet 9.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Btw, it's going to take me 10 years to pay off my Levo working at Taco Bell.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Giant Warp said:


> snip


Wow, I had no idea the levo was a $9000, dangerous POS!! Who would ever want one after that review?


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> Great post Empty Beer. I think it is time to divide the ebike forum and let the purists whine amongst themselves. I checked both of my Levos with the GPS and they cut out 17 mph. Oh the horror! The post about people that are not pro level and they are going to get an ebike are go about roosting the trails are completely unfounded. Do they not know that you have to have skills to ride fast in the dirt on skinny tires? The other day I was out with the wife on her Levo. She is still learning the bike. We had to pull off to side of a trail that was covered with hikers and let ten mountain bike riders (riding in a group) fly past us at racing speed. CX bikes are also popular in the Salt Lake area, and they also fly past us like we are not there.
> 
> Lets talk about handling during uphill speed for a minute on the Levo for minute. The Levo rides really low. Pedal strikes are a real danger on that bike. Climbing technical single track takes some real finesse to keep the pedals from hitting on rocks. Trails that are rutted or veeed out are a real challenge also. I've hit rocks so hard on my Levo I can't believe the egg beaters haven't broken off. I think platforms would be a big mistake on that bike. Two weeks ago I was riding uphill on the Levo. The front tire washed out on a corner and I broke my leg. The 27.5 X 3.0 front tire washed out like it was on ice. My theory is that when climbing under that situation the front suspension is totally unloaded and I was pedaling really hard and using the motor of course. In that situation, on a moto, you wouldn't be pedaling so you would be in a different position in the seat and the additonal motorcycle weight and big knobbies would keep you on the trail whereas the Levo isn't going to hold traction at speed. (at least with those balloon tires that is comes with)
> 
> ...


Wow. Man... A little too much honest, actual, real life experience in that post. Please, knock it off.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Giant Warp said:


> Lets talk about handling during uphill speed for a minute on the Levo for minute. The Levo rides really low. Pedal strikes are a real danger on that bike. Climbing technical single track takes some real finesse to keep the pedals from hitting on rocks. Trails that are rutted or veeed out are a real challenge also. I've hit rocks so hard on my Levo I can't believe the egg beaters haven't broken off. I think platforms would be a big mistake on that bike. Two weeks ago I was riding uphill on the Levo. The front tire washed out on a corner and I broke my leg. The 27.5 X 3.0 front tire washed out like it was on ice. My theory is that when climbing under that situation the front suspension is totally unloaded and I was pedaling really hard and using the motor of course. In that situation, on a moto, you wouldn't be pedaling so you would be in a different position in the seat and the additonal motorcycle weight and big knobbies would keep you on the trail whereas the Levo isn't going to hold traction at speed. (at least with those balloon tires that is comes with)
> 
> <rant on>
> o
> Thanks for reading. Cheers


Well you're some supposed expert rider and can't control your Ebike, pedal strikes over and over, almost destroying your pedals. Your theory of just sitting back on the seat and pedaling away like a mad man,hitting every other rock with your egg beaters, might unload your front end. Well no sh!t.

Now imagine some guy that really doesn't know what he's doing on a MUT doing that around hikers, dog walkers and people riding real mountain bikes


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^Actually pedal strikes load your front end.


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## Mountie (Jun 12, 2017)

Walt said:


> Great questions. There are really 2 answers:
> 
> -On a 10% climb, a pro/elite rider might be able to do 8-10mph. A non-pro will go 5-7mph or something if they're trying hard. If you triple the available power (I've done this to test it out on a LEVO) you can go 15+mph on that sort of climb. So it's not the case that the climbing speeds are no faster than a pro. They are in fact a LOT faster than pros can manage. And yes, I know that you don't *have* to go that fast. But you can, and people do/will.
> 
> ...


So going on this theory we are talking a difference of possibly 5mph if your lucky from a pro to a pedal assist bike. I think you had better drop that argument or all normal MT bikes will get banned, the average walking pace is 2 to 3mph a closing speed of 10 to 12mph, almost criminal.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Mountie said:


> So going on this theory we are talking a difference of possibly 5mph if your lucky from a pro to a pedal assist bike. I think you had better drop that argument or all normal MT bikes will get banned, the average walking pace is 2 to 3mph a closing speed of 10 to 12mph, almost criminal.


Another ebiker that has no idea what he is talking about.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Hi Mountie, welcome to the forum. 

In terms of closing speeds, normal mountain bikes often do get banned because of that 10-15 mph closing speed with hikers. It's the reason bikes aren't allowed a lot of places. Luckily, bikes are SLOW on the climbs - to the point that you're not often going much faster than a hiker, and there's plenty of time to say hello and arrange to pass. On the downhill, it's much less fun for a hiker, and much more dangerous for everyone.

Now, imagine riding DH speeds on the climb - suddenly you've made 100% of the trail into a potential conflict zone. More upset hikers, more accidents, more problems - and bikes get banned. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the fact that riding uphill is slow and hard is the only thing that allows us to keep access to many trails. It's a feature, not a bug. 

-Walt


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## Mountie (Jun 12, 2017)

Sorry but on a Levo or any other legal PAS your never going to get enough assist to do DH speeds up hill the difference is 5mph at best. Sorry but you are totally wrong Walt.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Giant Warp said:


> I think it is time to divide the ebike forum and let the purists whine amongst themselves.


I agree that MTBR.com should have created a sister site e-MMR.com just like they have a road bike site. That would alleviate a lot of conflict between mountain bikers and electric mountain moped riders.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

vikb said:


> I agree that MTBR.com should have created a sister site e-MMR.com just like they have a road bike site. That would alleviate a lot of conflict between mountain bikers and electric mountain moped riders.


Seconded!


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## Mountie (Jun 12, 2017)

Not sure what you mean as I was going on Walt's speeds measurements... Anyway all seems to be going well up here now that PAS and classic bikes are permitted on pathways and trails....

Going out for another ride...


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Why don't those who think e-bikes don't belong here contact the individual who added e-bikes and ask him to delete? The real reason for all the animosity is they're afraid somebody somewhere is having a good time.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

fos'l said:


> Why don't those who think e-bikes don't belong here contact the individual who added e-bikes and ask him to delete? The real reason for all the animosity is they're afraid somebody somewhere is having a good time.


I provide regular feedback to all the MTB media sites I visit about e-mountain moped content. Some listen. Some don't. I keep expressing my opinion.


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## krel (May 9, 2017)

fos'l said:


> The real reason for all the animosity is they're afraid somebody somewhere is having a good time.


I think it goes like this:

1. In many places, MBers have an access problem. Frequently their access is opposed by hikers and horse riders, who use the potential speed of bicycles as an argument against giving them access.

2. In some situations, ebikes are faster than bicycles, especially when climbing.

3. This is made worse if you don't differentiate between power levels of different types of ebikes. Hikers and riders certainly won't, when they're using speed as an argument against bicycle access.

4. So, to sum up - there's a fear that access for all bicycles would be limited because certain anti groups lump all bikes and ebikes together (which is exactly what some proponents of low power ebikes do, but the antis won't make the high/low power distinction) and use the speed of the high power ones to try to get their way.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

K, thanks for the thoughtful response totally unlike the junk science, vitriol and BS from most of the e-negatives. I ride my MTB about 80% of the time (sometimes more) and I've never seen an instance where an e-MTB rider reflected negatively on mountain bikes. From all the critics here it would seem there are a plethora of problems that e-bikes are causing, but it's all hysteria. The only negative comments about MTB's that I've encountered are individuals bombing down hills or otherwise going too fast on flat areas. As far as response on the trail I even had MTB riders assist me once when I had a problem with my e-MTB.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Mountie said:


> Sorry but on a Levo or any other legal PAS your never going to get enough assist to do DH speeds up hill the difference is 5mph at best. Sorry but you are totally wrong Walt.


i've personally done it with a LEVO. E-bikes are already commonly marketed this way, too - "shred berms uphill", "uphill flow trail", etc.

The current users are mostly old fogies (no offense, my own hairline is an embarrassment) who are slow but that's not who the bike companies are aiming at in the long run.

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

fos'l said:


> Why don't those who think e-bikes don't belong here contact the individual who added e-bikes and ask him to delete? The real reason for all the animosity is they're afraid somebody somewhere is having a good time.


Francis is enjoying the extra ad revenue, I presume. There's very little/no interest in e-bikes here except to bash them, but MTBR is about making money; c'est la vie.

-Walt


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