# Hard tail or Full suspension for kids 24"



## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

Hi anyone. 

Lots of threads talks about weights of kids bikes, and I couldn't agree more that the lighter the better, and will go a scott 24 inch either spark jr rc or the scale jr rc very soon. 

My biggest dilemma is I'm not sure whether to go hard tail or not. I ride with a mate who used to race BMX's and who is now a great MTB rider, and he has seen my nearly 8 yr old in action. He suggested going the hard tail to get the lightest weight and reckoned that it makes them learn their skills better than the full suspension. My husband reckons our son is "lazy" like him regarding learning skills and it is better for the boy to be on a hard tail. Just I know how much more I enjoyed the ride once chasing everyone on a full suspension and even for a novice adult rider would always suggest full suspension if they were keen on riding more advanced trails.
We do ride whenever we can and my boy can already ride 13km (?8miles) on grade 2-3 trails so he is a keen little rider.

I also have a 5 year old girl who is only just behind her brother in skills so not so worried for her as she has that second kid advantage!

Any thoughts everyone?


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## EBasil (Jan 30, 2004)

For us, budget and a desire that our boy learn some basic skills meant hardtail. We wanted a light bike and one with components that work at our son's size and weight. For 24" bikes, that means either mega-dollar for full suspension, or going hardtail or rigid. Since the Specialized A1FS is light and the fork actually works, we went with that and our son LOVES it.


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## DiRt DeViL (Dec 24, 2003)

hardtail and if possible rigid fork


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## RideEverything (Jul 25, 2008)

*Go with a hardtail*

Most FS kids bikes lack standover clearance. As well children generally don't weigh enough to get the full benefit out the suspension on a FS bike. Just make sure the forks are set up appropriately to your child's weight.

As for smoothing out the rough stuff on the trail larger volume tires help with that.

Not sure where you and and your child are riding but in the Whistler Bike Park the majority of the kids (12 and under) I coach and see there are riding hardtail bikes. There are few kids I have seen riding FS bikes in the park but they are killing it and would put most adult's bike skills to shame!


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## jlc30 (Apr 1, 2009)

Find out if you have a BMX track in your area. Buy a good hardtail and use the money you saved to pick up a good used BMX bike. Taking your kid to a bmx track will make a huge difference in your kids mountain biking. My 2 are not very good on the BMX track but it forces them to learn how to use momentum to flow from one obstacle to another, they're forced to get off the seat and peddle agressively, to use their upper body. Just a few weeks of riding bmx make a very noticeable difference on the trail.


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

jlc30 said:


> Find out if you have a BMX track in your area. Buy a good hardtail and use the money you saved to pick up a good used BMX bike. Taking your kid to a bmx track will make a huge difference in your kids mountain biking. My 2 are not very good on the BMX track but it forces them to learn how to use momentum to flow from one obstacle to another, they're forced to get off the seat and peddle agressively, to use their upper body. Just a few weeks of riding bmx make a very noticeable difference on the trail.


Thanks. That is good advice. Had been thinking a good used BMX and a full suspension would give the best of both worlds, but the weight difference probably isn't worth it.

When asking around a bike builder did send me a photo of this custom built FS bike set up for a 6 year old! The photo is pre painting and cost him about $3000 US ($5000 NZ) but the boy is now riding the shuttles to go up and down grade 3 trails at Rotorua (New Zealand's MTB Mecca).


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

RideEverything said:


> Most FS kids bikes lack standover clearance. As well children generally don't weigh enough to get the full benefit out the suspension on a FS bike. Just make sure the forks are set up appropriately to your child's weight.
> 
> As for smoothing out the rough stuff on the trail larger volume tires help with that.
> 
> Not sure where you and and your child are riding but in the Whistler Bike Park the majority of the kids (12 and under) I coach and see there are riding hardtail bikes. There are few kids I have seen riding FS bikes in the park but they are killing it and would put most adult's bike skills to shame!


Thanks. We ride over in lovely New Zealand at a place called Rotoura. It has the best riding in all the country but I can't compare to Whistler as haven't yet been. Still waiting till the kids are big enough to really appreciate the riding there.

The two bikes I am debating about are the Scott Spark RC and the Scale RC (hard tail). The Spark seems to have nearly the stand-over as the Scale which is their hard tail version, but you do add an extra 1.1kg.

Which kids have the best skills? the hardtail or FS kids?


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## scottb32 (May 14, 2009)

I got my 7-year-old son a Specialized A1 FSR full suspension bike 6 weeks ago. I then put a 20" disk wheel on the back to lower it a little more (128mm cranks). I have it down to 26 lbs with some light components.

By my calculations, the FSR weighs approx 2.5 lbs (1.2 Kg) heavier (stock fsr = 28.7 lbs, stock A1 FS weighed 26.2 lbs) - I think some of this weight was due to the A1 FS using a suntour fork (the FSR came with the much-better RST fork). What sold me was the price & fork. I got the FSR for $460 US. The A1 FS was $360 - so I figured the extra cash was worth it.

As to the ride - he couldn't be happier. The trails around Seattle are rooty and rough - so I'm glad he has an fsr (Dad has a 29er FSR). I agree with the "hard tail technic" theory - but he already has a BMX for that. He does 1 to 2 hour rides on mixed singletrack, and I couldn't be happier.


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

scottb32 said:


> I got my 7-year-old son a Specialized A1 FSR full suspension bike 6 weeks ago. I then put a 20" disk wheel on the back to lower it a little more (128mm cranks). I have it down to 26 lbs with some light components.
> 
> By my calculations, the FSR weighs approx 2.5 lbs (1.2 Kg) heavier (stock fsr = 28.7 lbs, stock A1 FS weighed 26.2 lbs) - I think some of this weight was due to the A1 FS using a suntour fork (the FSR came with the much-better RST fork). What sold me was the price & fork. I got the FSR for $460 US. The A1 FS was $360 - so I figured the extra cash was worth it.
> 
> As to the ride - he couldn't be happier. The trails around Seattle are rooty and rough - so I'm glad he has an fsr (Dad has a 29er FSR). I agree with the "hard tail technic" theory - but he already has a BMX for that. He does 1 to 2 hour rides on mixed singletrack, and I couldn't be happier.


Are you running a 24 inch wheel on the front and a 20 inch on the back? or am I really confused?


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## scottb32 (May 14, 2009)

paddler28 said:


> Are you running a 24 inch wheel on the front and a 20 inch on the back? or am I really confused?


That is correct - it is a 20/24er - a small version of a 69er - I put disk brakes on back so I don't have to use the v brakes. This lowers the rear down 2" (and standover height). WIth the 128mm cranks this works superb (my son is 48" tall). I figure he can use this bike for a good 3-4 years.


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

scottb32 said:


> That is correct - it is a 20/24er - a small version of a 69er - I put disk brakes on back so I don't have to use the v brakes. This lowers the rear down 2" (and standover height). WIth the 128mm cranks this works superb (my son is 48" tall). I figure he can use this bike for a good 3-4 years.


That is a very cool idea. Does he find the cranks OK? I was going to change the cranks on the 20 inch bike once my 5 year old girl takes over from her brother, but was probably going to go more 140mm in length.


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## RideEverything (Jul 25, 2008)

paddler28 said:


> Thanks. We ride over in lovely New Zealand at a place called Rotoura. It has the best riding in all the country but I can't compare to Whistler as haven't yet been. Still waiting till the kids are big enough to really appreciate the riding there.
> 
> The two bikes I am debating about are the Scott Spark RC and the Scale RC (hard tail). The Spark seems to have nearly the stand-over as the Scale which is their hard tail version, but you do add an extra 1.1kg.
> 
> Which kids have the best skills? the hardtail or FS kids?


I have heard great things about the riding in NZ so don't stress about any comparison to Whistler!

I do like the look of the Spark RC. It has an air rear shock so presumably it would be easy to set up for your child's weight.
Now the next few points are only _my_ opinion! I state this because I think they might open up a can of debate worms! But having been a coach of mtn biking for kids for quite some time I think my opinion has a little bit of weight!
- The Spark RC has a big ring. I would change that for a bash guard. I have yet to see a child willingly change up into the big ring for riding.
- The bike also comes with clipless pedals. Get rid of those and put flats on there! Flats build bike riding skills much easier.
- The bike has rim brakes. Rim brakes are okay but they require a lot of hand strength from a child to operate well. Disc brakes are much easier to operate for small hands with less strength.
(hopefully the bike shop you deal with can accommodate those changes)

Now for the real challenging question! "Which kids have the best skills? the hardtail or FS kids?"
I believe the kids with the best skills are the kids who ride a lot and love riding! And the majority of those kids started out on a hardtail but I think that is because of the availability of FS kids bikes. It has just been within the last few years that bike manufacturers have started making decent kids bikes with components that don't suck and bikes that don't weigh a ton. 
The other reason I think most children are on hardtails is because it makes sense financially to the parents. Why spend a ton of money for bike that may be outgrown in one year? However, if you are a smart shopping bike aware parent you can buy a bike that the frame has the ability to have larger parts swapped in as your child grows. Specifically wheels.
Does that answer the question?

I hope this info helps. I am not a parent but I have been teaching/coaching/instructing children for close to 15 years and I enjoy using my knowledge that has been gained helping parents out!


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## scottb32 (May 14, 2009)

The 128mm cranks were cheap on ebay - so I picked them up. I only run the inner gear (24t) at this time. This is fine because the singletrack is fairly slow. When you calculate crank length to height - these cranks would be equivalent to 192mm cranks for someone 6 feet tall. He can really spin with these (his bmx has 152mm cranks which is not conducive to efficient pedaling). The stock cranks are 160mm - so I'll probably end up getting a pair of cheap 145mm cranks to split the difference when he gets taller.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

DiRt DeViL said:


> hardtail and if possible rigid fork


+1. And get proper components - most can be moved over to the next size, up to an adult bike. Stock bits are usually good enough for boat anchors..


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

RideEverything said:


> I have heard great things about the riding in NZ so don't stress about any comparison to Whistler!
> 
> I do like the look of the Spark RC. It has an air rear shock so presumably it would be easy to set up for your child's weight.
> Now the next few points are only _my_ opinion! I state this because I think they might open up a can of debate worms! But having been a coach of mtn biking for kids for quite some time I think my opinion has a little bit of weight!
> ...


Thanks for that. Everything you have suggested is what I was going to do re modifications to the bike. As silly as it may seem from a cost point of view I am also doing the whole weight weeny thing with cheap carbon bars, lightweight seatpost and seat, and Moe Joe tyres which are very light to reduce rolling weight. I am lucky at the moment as there is a volcano blowing up in Iceland, which means I am having to work extra night shifts, of which gives some extra cash for pimping the kids bikes. I just really don;t get the idea that kids should be having to pedal something that is between 40-60% of their body weight!!

Financially I am less worried as the bike is going to get used by two kids and used as much as we can. Plus unless they are riding, I don't get to ride. I know I enjoyed riding SOOO much more once I was on full suspension so I gues I am still hung up on that.

Maybe we should get the Scott owners into a debate, Spark versus Scale!


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

paddler28 said:


> Thanks. We ride over in lovely New Zealand at a place called Rotoura. It has the best riding in all the country but I can't compare to Whistler as haven't yet been. Still waiting till the kids are big enough to really appreciate the riding there.
> 
> The two bikes I am debating about are the Scott Spark RC and the Scale RC (hard tail). The Spark seems to have nearly the stand-over as the Scale which is their hard tail version, but you do add an extra 1.1kg.
> 
> Which kids have the best skills? the hardtail or FS kids?


HT or FS really comes down to how aggressive your little rider is & the type of terrain.I agree a HT builds great skills but it also comes down to a safety issue also.My son has a Hotrock HT & the Spark RC 24,the single track & bike parks we ride are very rooty & rocky.My son is a very smooth technical rider, but watching him swap & pinball through the rocks & roots on his HT is just scary.The same trail on the Spark is butter, he just seems to float through the technical stuff on that bike [and the bike he much prefers to ride]So kids don't adapt to these conditions on a HT, its just dangerous compared to a FS.
On the Spark you won't need disc brakes, they are very powerful with a light touch on the lever.Sounds like you are making some good mods to the Scott,the big ring is completely useless, drop weight & increase ground clearance with a BBG bash guard.Wider riser bars are a must.I replaced the 90mm stem with a 60mm light stem from carboncycles.cc.I already mentioned Middleburn cranks & rings to you.
:thumbsup:


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## msimmons (Jun 14, 2007)

Spark! My little guy is cleanly riding rocky rollers that some of my adult riding buddies walk around, and he is riding clipless. Not to say he couldn't ride the same on the Scale but he is having a blast on this bike. So to your point, that translates into more riding time for both of us.


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

xc71 said:


> HT or FS really comes down to how aggressive your little rider is & the type of terrain.I agree a HT builds great skills but it also comes down to a safety issue also.My son has a Hotrock HT & the Spark RC 24,the single track & bike parks we ride are very rooty & rocky.My son is a very smooth technical rider, but watching him swap & pinball through the rocks & roots on his HT is just scary.The same trail on the Spark is butter, he just seems to float through the technical stuff on that bike [and the bike he much prefers to ride]So kids don't adapt to these conditions on a HT, its just dangerous compared to a FS.
> On the Spark you won't need disc brakes, they are very powerful with a light touch on the lever.Sounds like you are making some good mods to the Scott,the big ring is completely useless, drop weight & increase ground clearance with a BBG bash guard.Wider riser bars are a must.I replaced the 90mm stem with a 60mm light stem from carboncycles.cc.I already mentioned Middleburn cranks & rings to you.
> :thumbsup:


Thanks for the excellent advice. Now leaning back to my gut instinct of FS and get him a cheap BMX to gain further skills. The only thing I am still debating is if the 160mm cranks are a bit long. For his size I had been thinking of getting shortened ones at 152mm, especially as my boy seems to love to spin and is not a power pusher.


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

paddler28 said:


> Thanks for the excellent advice. Now leaning back to my gut instinct of FS and get him a cheap BMX to gain further skills. The only thing I am still debating is if the 160mm cranks are a bit long. For his size I had been thinking of getting shortened ones at 152mm, especially as my boy seems to love to spin and is not a power pusher.


I've also got a spinner & he is a very small 9 year old.With the 22/32 & 32/11 gearing he is cleaning some really steep climbs no problem with 160mm cranks.


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## RideEverything (Jul 25, 2008)

paddler28 said:


> Thanks for that. Everything you have suggested is what I was going to do re modifications to the bike. As silly as it may seem from a cost point of view I am also doing the whole weight weeny thing with cheap carbon bars, lightweight seatpost and seat, and Moe Joe tyres which are very light to reduce rolling weight. I am lucky at the moment as there is a volcano blowing up in Iceland, which means I am having to work extra night shifts, of which gives some extra cash for pimping the kids bikes. I just really don;t get the idea that kids should be having to pedal something that is between 40-60% of their body weight!!
> 
> Financially I am less worried as the bike is going to get used by two kids and used as much as we can. Plus unless they are riding, I don't get to ride. I know I enjoyed riding SOOO much more once I was on full suspension so I gues I am still hung up on that.
> 
> Maybe we should get the Scott owners into a debate, Spark versus Scale!


Sweet!
I am stoked to hear about the amount of thought being put into the purchase and build of your child's bike! If only all parents were this aware when getting their child a bike!
I will admit that I didn't even think about going the weight weenie route with the bars, seat post and seat. Good on ya!

Now if parents would see the light like you in regards to the snowboarding and skiing I teach! If you wax your skis why wouldn't you wax your child's!? But that is a whole other thread!


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## Mount Dora Cycles (May 29, 2009)

Paddler, I'm surprised Msimmons didn't mention this but Scott is sold out of both the Spark RC and the Scale RC with no plans of bringing them back. The regular versions of both are still available though. sorry  
You might find one on Ebay sometime if you're lucky.


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## msimmons (Jun 14, 2007)

Mount Dora Cycles said:


> Paddler, I'm surprised Msimmons didn't mention this but Scott is sold out of both the Spark RC and the Scale RC with no plans of bringing them back. The regular versions of both are still available though. sorry
> You might find one on Ebay sometime if you're lucky.


I was under the impression that Scott just wasn't selling the RC models here in the states starting this year. The OP is in NZ.


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## Mount Dora Cycles (May 29, 2009)

I missed the fact he is in NZ. Cheers!


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

xc71 said:


> HT or FS really comes down to how aggressive your little rider is & the type of terrain.I agree a HT builds great skills but it also comes down to a safety issue also.My son has a Hotrock HT & the Spark RC 24,the single track & bike parks we ride are very rooty & rocky.My son is a very smooth technical rider, but watching him swap & pinball through the rocks & roots on his HT is just scary.The same trail on the Spark is butter, he just seems to float through the technical stuff on that bike [and the bike he much prefers to ride]So kids don't adapt to these conditions on a HT, its just dangerous compared to a FS.
> On the Spark you won't need disc brakes, they are very powerful with a light touch on the lever.Sounds like you are making some good mods to the Scott,the big ring is completely useless, drop weight & increase ground clearance with a BBG bash guard.Wider riser bars are a must.I replaced the 90mm stem with a 60mm light stem from carboncycles.cc.I already mentioned Middleburn cranks & rings to you.
> :thumbsup:


Thanks heaps for that. It is great to hear someone who has been there done that. I am now leaning back to the FS as where we live in it is rocky and not smooth trails. How wide did you go for your bars?
Thanks again


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

msimmons said:


> Spark! My little guy is cleanly riding rocky rollers that some of my adult riding buddies walk around, and he is riding clipless. Not to say he couldn't ride the same on the Scale but he is having a blast on this bike. So to your point, that translates into more riding time for both of us.
> 
> Thats so cool. Just looking at the photos, is that the front fork that the scott came with, or have you changed it for something else. Cheers


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

Mount Dora Cycles said:


> Paddler, I'm surprised Msimmons didn't mention this but Scott is sold out of both the Spark RC and the Scale RC with no plans of bringing them back. The regular versions of both are still available though. sorry
> You might find one on Ebay sometime if you're lucky.


It seems this might just be in the US. There were some rumours that Scott were no longer making the RC models, however I have a friend in the trade who has already seen the spreadsheet for the 2011 models (due out in August) and they are on there. His theory is that Scott may just not be importing into the US. I live in New Zealand and apparently we tap into the European market.

Plus if worst comes to worst I know there is a little bike shop in a small town that has a 2008 model that I can grab.

THERE IS ALWAYS A WAY!!


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

Mount Dora Cycles said:


> I missed the fact he is in NZ. Cheers!


Opps, missed your reply. I am just hoping that for once there is an advantage to being in a far far away land! Cheers


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## msimmons (Jun 14, 2007)

paddler28 said:


> Thats so cool. Just looking at the photos, is that the front fork that the scott came with, or have you changed it for something else. Cheers


I swapped out the stock fork with a used RockShox Sid that is made for a 26" wheel bike. It took some work to "engineer" a brake adaptor for the rim brakes to line up but the performance is worth it.


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

paddler28 said:


> Thanks heaps for that. It is great to hear someone who has been there done that. I am now leaning back to the FS as where we live in it is rocky and not smooth trails. How wide did you go for your bars?
> Thanks again


Easton carbon monkey lite low rise cut down to 25 inchs.Some will say thats to wide but for any downhilling,skinny's,tetter totters they are a huge improvement.The bars on his KTM SX 65 are 29",so not really that wide @ 25".


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

msimmons said:


> I swapped out the stock fork with a used RockShox Sid that is made for a 26" wheel bike. It took some work to "engineer" a brake adaptor for the rim brakes to line up but the performance is worth it.


I wonder if that could be done with a Cannondale lefty fork. They are very very light, even though it would mean I would have to have a front wheel made. Hmmm.


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## texacajun (Jan 20, 2004)

paddler28 said:


> I wonder if that could be done with a Cannondale lefty fork. They are very very light, even though it would mean I would have to have a front wheel made. Hmmm.


Interesting idea, but a bit steep cost wise I'd think. Don't you need Cannondale's proprietary disk hub to go with a lefty? You'd have to re-lace the hub for the move up to 26". Doubt you'd easily find a market for a used 24" wheel w/lefty hub. Then again it could be the wave of the racer kid's in years to come.


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

texacajun said:


> Interesting idea, but a bit steep cost wise I'd think. Don't you need Cannondale's proprietary disk hub to go with a lefty? You'd have to re-lace the hub for the move up to 26". Doubt you'd easily find a market for a used 24" wheel w/lefty hub. Then again it could be the wave of the racer kid's in years to come.


Agreed, although if I could find a very cheap one on ebay that some granny just wants to give away........
Anyway the current light lefty has 110mm travel which would probably make the bike unbalanced. What travel did the rock shock you used have?


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## Mount Dora Cycles (May 29, 2009)

I haven't heard anything for 2011 yet. I was just referring to the 2010 bikes. NZ seems like a great place to live. You guys get great cars too.


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## texacajun (Jan 20, 2004)

paddler28 said:


> Agreed, although if I could find a very cheap one on ebay that some granny just wants to give away........
> Anyway the current light lefty has 110mm travel which would probably make the bike unbalanced. What travel did the rock shock you used have?


SID's were 80mm. There's a place near me that specializes in rebuilding cannondale suspension. I bet if you e-mailed them they could tell you if you can add a spacer like on Rock Shox & Fox Forks to reduce the travel. www.two6labs.com

Yeah, I was thinking if you found somebody parting out a cracked frame, taco'd wheel etc you might find a deal. I had never thought of it, but it would make a super light bike for a kid.


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## paddler28 (Apr 4, 2010)

texacajun said:


> SID's were 80mm. There's a place near me that specializes in rebuilding cannondale suspension. I bet if you e-mailed them they could tell you if you can add a spacer like on Rock Shox & Fox Forks to reduce the travel. www.two6labs.com
> 
> Yeah, I was thinking if you found somebody parting out a cracked frame, taco'd wheel etc you might find a deal. I had never thought of it, but it would make a super light bike for a kid.


Thanks for the advice and the link! Now you have really got me thinking about options.


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