# 29er Tandem



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

While I was roaming the net today I noticed MTBTandems is now offering their Fandango in a US made 29 inch wheel version.

I needed to speak to Alex (Big Nut) about something else tandem related (forks). I gave him a quick call, got some info on the new 29er.

Just another option in what seems like a dwindling number of available options.

Spam or not, I like choices, and this one seems to fill the niche left by Cannondale pulling out for 2009.

PK


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Orly?

...heading to Alex's website.....


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

If you're asking, no it wasn't about oil (orly).

PK


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*That would be sweet...*



PMK said:


> While I was roaming the net today I noticed MTBTandems is now offering their Fandango in a US made 29 inch wheel version.
> 
> I needed to speak to Alex (Big Nut) about something else tandem related (forks). I gave him a quick call, got some info on the new 29er.
> 
> ...


but that market would be soooo tiny that I would doubt you could get decent parts to make it work. I mean, who makes a DJ or DH worthy 29er fork? Maybe a Mavrick fork or some other inverted fork with reduced travel?

Not sure anybody makes heavy duty FR or DH grade 29er rims either. Wait, wasn't there a Rhynolite 29er rim? Maybe if that were a 40 spoke....


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Kris Holm, in 36 hole
Salsa's new Gordo 32 only, but wide enough, and maybe stiff enough
Halo, looks burly.










^^ O rly? ^^


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

Damn! Looks like I jumped in a year too early!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

pimpbot said:


> but that market would be soooo tiny that I would doubt you could get decent parts to make it work. I mean, who makes a DJ or DH worthy 29er fork? Maybe a Mavrick fork or some other inverted fork with reduced travel?
> 
> Not sure anybody makes heavy duty FR or DH grade 29er rims either. Wait, wasn't there a Rhynolite 29er rim? Maybe if that were a 40 spoke....


Yes while it may be a limited market, I'd speculate tandems of any type is also.

I was talking to Alex about forks. Various brands were discussed. During the 29 chat, he mentioned the White Brothers and the ATC.

At the moment my stoker and I are rolling a 32 spoke front wheel. Formula hub with 20mm axle, Sun Singletrack rim, 2.1 tire. The current fork is an ATC. Our previous setup was the Coda hub 36 hole with a moto fr fork. For comparison, we've ridden the same trails on both setups. So far the ATC setup ranks as flex free as the moto.

Haven't ridden a WB fork in a while.

While I'm not a big fan of 29er's, I'd definitely like the tandem to be able to roll over or on top of some features more easily. The larger wheel could provide this.

As I mentioned, just another option, which is always good.

Alex didn't mention now did I see it posted on his website, if the 26 inch wheel version will still be offered, and if that will be US made also.

I'm tempted to build a more open terrain, 29er tandem. Use conventional cranks, with the outer rings for the timing chain, go with a wide ratio cassette, and run a 2x9 setup.

Might be a good setup for 40 plus mile rides.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Speedub.Nate said:


> Damn! Looks like I jumped in a year too early!


Never, you would probably do fine with your creative buying and selling if you had to have a 29 in place of the 'Dale.

PK


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

*Here's ours*

This one has been on the roads and double track mostly because we have mtn. bikes for off road, don't need to be stretching the relationship quite that far....could have done without the independent drive in retrospect for our use, but the wife likes it well enough. 








Willits made some, Viscious makes em, Quiring is making 3 right now. They are out there, just have to pull the trigger.


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## ATBScott (Jun 4, 2006)

Salsa makes the Semi in a 36h model, black only. That isn't a 40h that would be nice for that sort of wheel, but it is a beefy enough looking rim that it might work as a 36 hole.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

We'll either use Velocity's Cliffhanger 40 spoke, or Kris Holm's 36 spoke. I'm putting time on both to see which works best. The KH is HUGE, and seems to be bombproof, but I like the Cliffhanger as well, and it lets us stay with 40 spokes. 
We went to 145mm rear spacing on the 29" bikes (except for the Rohloff versions, which stay with the 135mm rear spacing to accomodate the hub). I don't want to start the ole' 135mm vs 145mm spacing debate, other than to say that I figured the additional spacing would allow for a more symmetrical wheel, and that should help offset the wheel size difference vs 135mm spacing for 26" wheels.
And yes, there will be a 26" version available as well. We're getting the 29" version rolling with the first production run.
26" and 29" frames will both be made in the same US custom shop/factory.
White Bros Magic 100T 29'er is the default fork. We're also playing with the ATC, but I'm uncertain of the ultimate fate of that line. We're looking at/for other options as well, but there aren't many out there, and nothing viable in single-crown right now.
There are some other 29'er tandems out there, but I don't think any of the US-made ones are competitively priced with the Fandango line. And I didn't want to compete with or take business from the custom guys. 
Our target market is the customer who want's a US-built 29'er, but is either unwilling or unable to commit at the custom frame price level. We'll also have frames "on the shelf" so that there's no long lead time other than for custom colors (an extra 2 weeks).
I also think 29" wheels have some distinct advantages for off-road tandems, especially for teams that do mixed riding.
I also wanted to support the US contract framebuilding industry before it goes completely away.


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## winbert (Sep 22, 2005)

Excellent news :thumbsup:, thanks Alex! Perfect timing, as this week I built up a 29er tandem wheelset. I was hoping that you'd roll out a reasonably priced Fandango 29er tandem frame this year, and I got such smokin' deals (see below) on the wheel parts that I couldn't resist building them for a bike I don't yet own :blush:.

Couple questions about the new 29er tandem frame:
- what A-C length fork is the frame designed around?
- is the stoker seat tube length c-c or c-t?
- what's the stoker seat tube outside diameter? (for child stoker kit)
- what size seat collars, and are they included w/ the "frame-only"?

Thanks!
winbert

p.s. The Salsa Gordo 29er disc rim is available in 36-hole at Bikeman.com for $91...

p.p.s. My wheel deal details for anyone interested. Not particularly light @ ~1500g each, but should be durable and bargain priced @ less than $250 total ...
Front:
- Quando 36h 20mm thru-axle hub (basically free as part of a sweet deal on a WaltWorks rigid fork from MichiganClydesdale)
- Kris Holm 29er unicycle rim (beefy & 38mm wide, only $38 @ Speedgoat.com)
- DT 13/14 DB spokes & brass nipples ($23 from Cambriabike.com)
Rear:
- DT Swiss Hugi TD QR tandem hub, 40h 145mm (w/ skewer & disc brake adaptor for $99 :eekster: from Chucksbikes.com)
- Sun Rhyno Lite Rim 700c ($29 from Bikeman.com)
- DT 13/14 DB spokes & brass nipples ($27 from Cambriabike.com)


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

*still one question*

one word: fork?

The WB is a bit too floppy for many teams, the Maverick is gone until 200?, and the ATC (as BigNut said) is uncertain. What is left? We can't poach the sturdy AM/ DH forks like we can with 26". Although I am still a benighted soul and have only little wheeled bikes, I can see some nice "rolling over big stuff" advantages for a 29er.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

winbert said:


> Couple questions about the new 29er tandem frame:
> - what A-C length fork is the frame designed around?
> - is the stoker seat tube length c-c or c-t?
> - what's the stoker seat tube outside diameter? (for child stoker kit)
> ...


Winbert,
A-C used in the design, and actual A-C for White Bros is 520mm unloaded (subtract 25mm for sag on a 100mm fork).
Seat tube/frame sizes are measured Center to Top. Top tubes are dropped where possible for maximum standover.
Seat tube OD will most likely be 34.9mm, with 27.2mm seatposts.
Seat collars will be included with the frame-only option.
Thanks


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Trails4Two said:


> one word: fork?
> 
> The WB is a bit too floppy for many teams, the Maverick is gone until 200?, and the ATC (as BigNut said) is uncertain. What is left? We can't poach the sturdy AM/ DH forks like we can with 26". Although I am still a benighted soul and have only little wheeled bikes, I can see some nice "rolling over big stuff" advantages for a 29er.


We've got WB building a special version tandem fork for us, with springs in both sides instead of just one side. This should greatly decrease the air preload needed for tandem teams, which should make the fork much more compliant on smaller bumps. It will also reduce the severe spring-rate ramp-up caused by the air assist pressure being so high. I'm hoping this will also help the fork compress more over bumps and flex less in the process. Won't take the place of the beefier versions out there, but it should be an improvement.
You are indeed correct in that there aren't many forks out there to poach for 29'er tandem use. I'm hoping someone (Marzocchi) will eventually build an HD single-crown fork for 29'ers that we can adapt.
In the meantime, as with single bikes, if folks want more than 4"+ - suspension travel, a 26" wheeled bike is a better option than a 29". 
I looked very closely at the 650b platform as well, as it would seem to offer some of the best of 26" and 29" wheels. In a couple of years, we may find the 650b to be a viable option, but right now there are too few tires, rims and forks available on that platform to make a non-custom 650b production tandem feasible. 
I think a 29'er tandem has a lot to offer, and in some ways may be more of an improvement than on a single bike. We haven't abandoned the original design philosophy of the Fandango line - first and foremost they are legitimate and viable off-road performers, at a (relatively) budget price, that happen to be very good at all-around riding. I don't think we've given up anything to the 26" Fandangos as far as singletrack performance; I think we've just improved the all-around a bit.
There will also be 26" Fandangos in the line as well, but later this year.


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

*Forks*

Great work getting White Bros to modify for you. Let us know how it comes out. Of course if you need some one to do any testing, their office is about a mile from my house and Mike (lacemine29.com) is over in Fruita. I'd be glad to try a 69er El Conq. Sherwood might cringe but it wouldn't be any taller than my current set up.


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

Actually Mike lives in GJ close to REI. White Bros reworked my fork for 60mm travel and beefed it for use on our tandem when I still lived in CB and could get over there once in awhile.


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

*Gj*

Even better since I live about 5 blocks from REI myself! I'll have to find out where he is and take ove a 12 pack to introduce myself.


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

Trails4Two said:


> Even better since I live about 5 blocks from REI myself! I'll have to find out where he is and take ove a 12 pack to introduce myself.


Mike isn't much of a drinker, take a couple of pints of Ben and Jerry's instead. He lives on Elm and is a very approachable sort, just give an e jingle at his site to set up something.


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

MABman said:


> Mike isn't much of a drinker, take a couple of pints of Ben and Jerry's instead.


That's why I like these "super-athletes" I can take over a 12 pack and I get 10-12 of them...

Thanks for the tip!


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## winbert (Sep 22, 2005)

PMK said:


> Use conventional cranks, with the outer rings for the timing chain, go with a wide ratio cassette, and run a 2x9 setup. PK


Anyone have experience w/ this? I read about the problems that the Eppens had @ Ore2shore trying to run the timing chain on the granny rings. We saw a noticeable improvement keeping the timing chain on by replacing the stock 32t timing rings w/ 36t, so I wouldn't have alot of confidence using granny-sized timing rings. I think MichiganClydesdale has the right idea using the outer ring for the timing chain on his Rohloff build, but am curious about the options if running a rear derailleur.

I really like your idea of a 2x9 (front derailleur shifting between middle & granny positions only). If the timing ring & middle ring were the same size, then I suppose there wouldn't be any interference b/w the front derailleur cage & the timing ring/chain? The other option would be to go 1x9 w/ a jumpstop/Blackguard/etc., but not sure how smart it would be to count on your timing ring/chain as your outer chain guide. And even w/ an 11-34t cassette, your gear range would be severely limited in 1x9 mode.

thanks,
winbert


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Other than crank choice advantages, I don't see the great benefit in same side drivetrains, unless for a Rohloff setup. 
Shaft drive, now THAT'S the future!


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## winbert (Sep 22, 2005)

BigNut said:


> Other than crank choice advantages


Thanks, BigNut, you hit the nail on the head. We're wanting to run a combination of 180, 185, or 190mm cranks (e.g., Profile Racing).

The only other advantage of single-side drivetrains I could dream up would be possibly reduced wear on the rear BB (not that I've had any rear BB failures)? I always figured the rear BB was highly stressed because the left-side timing chain pulled the left side of the spindle forward, and the drive chain pulled the right side of the spindle rearward, so these forces were additive. Wouldn't the timing chain & drive chain forces on the rear BB partially offset each other on a same-side drivetrain? I know, grasping at straws :skep:...

One of my past concerns w/ a 2x9 would be giving up the big ring, which is very useful @ Iceman & on the road. But w/ a 29er tandem the granny/middle ring combo of 26t/36t translates to ~30t/40t, which would provide a nice gear range w/ an 11-34t cassette. Or you could easily step up or down a couple teeth...

winbert


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