# Mavic EX823's on Hope Pro 2's (anyone running this setup)



## RamRider (Sep 10, 2009)

So I'm going to be ordering some Mavic 823's and Hope 2's and I was hoping that someone who already had them could tell me what spoke length I need instead of me ordering the hubs and rims, measuring them, than ordering the spokes. I would like to order them all at the same time and I was really hoping someone could spare me the time.

Thanks , if someone knows that would be fantastic.


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## redeyeksc (Apr 14, 2007)

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#length

probably find what you need here


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

The DT swiss spoke calculator works really well:

http://www.dtswiss.com/SpokesCalc/Welcome.aspx?language=en

You should be able to find the measurements for your hubs/rims pretty easy online as well as they are very common.


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

ok ill help you out but you do know this is cheating right??? ha ha

I actually ordered it wrong since i didn't know you were supposed to use the 16mm nipples (i ordered the 12mm ones) to extend far enough out of the rim inserts.

I used 258mm spokes with the 12mm ones and it tensioned up perfect so...

you should order 254mm (256mm might work too) spokes and then order 16mm nipples to save the headache and any unnecessary anger from your wheelbuilder.

hope that helped.


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## RamRider (Sep 10, 2009)

climbingbubba said:


> ok ill help you out but you do know this is cheating right??? ha ha
> 
> I actually ordered it wrong since i didn't know you were supposed to use the 16mm nipples (i ordered the 12mm ones) to extend far enough out of the rim inserts.
> 
> ...


You're the man thanks a million!


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

RamRider said:


> You're the man thanks a million!


im 99% sure what i said will work but as a disclaimer i can't guarantee anything and won't be held responsible for anything that goes wrong 

so in other words if you want to be 100% sure then calculate it on the dtswiss site yourself to make sure.


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## RamRider (Sep 10, 2009)

Should I get 1.8 or 2.0mm width of the nipples? Is that just the measurement of the size of spoke wrench?


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## Err (Mar 21, 2005)

RamRider said:


> Should I get 1.8 or 2.0mm width of the nipples? Is that just the measurement of the size of spoke wrench?


We would need to know what spokes you're using. For instance, DT Comps use 2.0, Supercomps use 1.8.


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## RamRider (Sep 10, 2009)

And Its fine I won't hold you to anything. I think I am going to go with the 256's though because if you could get 258's to work on yours than a 256 should be no problem whatsoever, it will just set in the nipple a little further than the 45 would, and its better to have a little extra than not quite enough.


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

Err said:


> We would need to know what spokes you're using. For instance, DT Comps use 2.0, Supercomps use 1.8.


ha ha, this is the man who would know. He is the one who tensioned my wheels and had to compensate for me not knowing what size spokes to order. I really need to learn how to tension my own wheels one of these days.

like i said the 254mm ones should fit perfect. like err said it depends on the spoke but i would recommend either champions or comp (which take the 2.0)

good luck


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## Err (Mar 21, 2005)

RamRider said:


> And Its fine I won't hold you to anything. I think I am going to go with the 256's though because if you could get 258's to work on yours than a 256 should be no problem whatsoever, it will just set in the nipple a little further than the 45 would, and its better to have a little extra than not quite enough.


this is always a confusing topic for people new to wheel building or even experienced wheel builders new to working with 16 mm nipples. The 16 mm nipples are not just longer, the threads are oriented 4mm farther outboard than 12 mm nipples. This means that it's important to use the correct length spoke to get maximum thread engagement. Plugin the hub specs and the rim ERD to DT's spoke calculator tool, be sure to select 16 mm nips and use the results it gives you.

Climbingbubba is right, his did work out (I tensioned them) but it's best to get the exact combo you need.


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

Err said:


> this is always a confusing topic for people new to wheel building or even experienced wheel builders new to working with 16 mm nipples. The 16 mm nipples are not just longer, the threads are oriented 4mm farther outboard than 12 mm nipples. This means that it's important to use the correct length spoke to get maximum thread engagement. Plugin the hub specs and the rim ERD to DT's spoke calculator tool, be sure to select 16 mm nips and use the results it gives you.
> 
> Climbingbubba is right, his did work out (I tensioned them) but it's best to get the exact combo you need.


yeah we ended up using 258's on mine with 12mm spokes. Am i wrong to assume that using 16mm nipples would change the necessary spoke length to 254mm?

oh man, thats it, i better check my work now... just a second and ill look on the dt swiss calculator.


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

ok, here we go

if you want the exact numbers it says to use
front - 253 left, 255 right 
135mm rear- 254 left, 253 right
150mm rear- 254 left, 254 right

ok now you owe me big time...

I have always used the same spoke length (never bought different sizes for different sides) on all my hope builds so if you were going to go in the middle i would go for the 254mm and you should be fine.

Also again i could have possibly messed up somewhere in the process so again, disclaimer.... but now im 99.5% sure im giving you the right info.....


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

ha ha, wait a minute, PLEASE don't tell me you are lacing a 36 hole because that changes the calculation. guess i should have asked first. So if you are lacing a 32 hole the info i gave you above is the correct answer. if you are lacing a 36 hole then i can't help you.


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## Ithnu (Feb 16, 2007)

Here's what I got out of the DT calculator. I used 256mm on all of them but the RF (258mm). After building them up I realized I could get away with 256mm on all sides, makes it much easier to order and organize spokes on your work bench.


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

Ithnu said:


> Here's what I got out of the DT calculator. I used 256mm on all of them but the RF (258mm). After building them up I realized I could get away with 256mm on all sides, makes it much easier to order and organize spokes on your work bench.


yep but you made the same mistake that i did when i built mine up.

You NEED 16mm nipples and not the 12mm ones.


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## Ithnu (Feb 16, 2007)

climbingbubba said:


> yep but you made the same mistake that i did when i built mine up.
> 
> You NEED 16mm nipples and not the 12mm ones.


Yeah, they worked but it took a bit more effort. Once they're installed they're fine. I'd definitely go to 16mm on another build, the calculator even says "16mm!" to remind you.

Oh and I used straight gauge not the double butted ones, so my wheels came to 2250 grams.


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

Ithnu said:


> Yeah, they worked but it took a bit more effort. Once they're installed they're fine. I'd definitely go to 16mm on another build, the calculator even says "16mm!" to remind you.
> 
> Oh and I used straight gauge not the double butted ones, so my wheels came to 2250 grams.


ha ha, it does say 16mm and you still used 12mm..

I used the different mavic 823 ust rim it has in the calculator too. I doubt it matter except there is a 80 gram difference in weight which if you buy the newest version 823's they do weigh about 730 grams with all the inserts.

mine came out to 2330ish on my park scale once i had built them up with comp spokes and alu nipples


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## RamRider (Sep 10, 2009)

Ok, so here is the plan.
16X2.00mm spoke nipples
254mm DT Competition Black Spokes
Mavic 823's
Hope Pro 2's

I cant tell you guys how much I appreciate it!
I'll probably order all of it this weekend and I'll post some pictures of the wheel build for you guys to see how it turned out sometime next week.
Again, guys, thanks a ton, I owe you one for sure.


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## RamRider (Sep 10, 2009)

Oh by the way just to make sure you guys are talking about lacing a 3x pattern right?


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## Salami (Jan 13, 2004)

Err said:


> The 16 mm nipples are not just longer, the threads are oriented 4mm farther outboard than 12 mm nipples. This means that it's important to use the correct length spoke to get maximum thread engagement.


Toni, it is like talking to a wall with some people about this, right? SO many people say it doesn't make any difference what the nipple length is.

The spoke ruler does not lie!!


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

RamRider said:


> Oh by the way just to make sure you guys are talking about lacing a 3x pattern right?


yeah 32 hole laced 3x


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## RamRider (Sep 10, 2009)

climbingbubba said:


> yeah 32 hole laced 3x


Alrighty, looks like I have it all squared away, I appreciate the help so much!


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## stunzeed (Mar 17, 2007)

let us know and lets see pics after..I plan on building same set...run hopes on my trail bike and have for years with no problems


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## RamRider (Sep 10, 2009)

stunzeed said:


> let us know and lets see pics after..I plan on building same set...run hopes on my trail bike and have for years with no problems


Will do, sir.


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## RamRider (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks a bunch guys, the wheels turned out great!
(I guess the rest of the bike didnt turn out horribly either  )


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

wow that looks awesome!!! glad to help


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## cowpatchman6 (Jun 27, 2009)

Whew! Bad and Burly! :thumbsup: ...and thanks to everyone, now I have the info to work on with my next wheel build. Oh yeah, what cassette do you have installed on the rear hub? Heard that steel cassettes grind the contact body of the rear hub, could someone confirm this? Thanks!


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Confirmed. You need a spider-carrier cassette like the Shimano XT or Sram PG 990 to avoid damage to the freehub body. Alternatively you can swap the freehub body to steel.


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## zdubyadubya (Oct 5, 2008)

just for kicks and giggles, and i only say this because its a pet peeve of a guy who works as a mech and changes lots of tubes/tires...

line up the middle of the maxxis logo or the "minion 3c" logo with the valve stem when you install a tire. that way, if you get a flat, you can trace the puncture or whatever to a location on the tire and check for debris so that when you put a new tube in, you dont get another flat. also, it just looks really professional/snazzy.

nice wheelset!


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

Don't run tubes and you don't have to worry about that...


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## Ithnu (Feb 16, 2007)

dbabuser said:


> Don't run tubes and you don't have to worry about that...


Yeah, they are tubeless.


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## Ithnu (Feb 16, 2007)

climbingbubba said:


> ha ha, it does say 16mm and you still used 12mm..
> mine came out to 2330ish on my park scale once i had built them up with comp spokes and alu nipples


2330 with comps and alu nipples, hmmm that seems weird. I could have swore mine were only 100 grams more than the DeeMax. Yours should be lighter than mine. Did you have the cassette on it when you weighed it?

Oh well, I'm going to DeeMax soon.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

bike looks rad


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## chaingangster (Jun 29, 2009)

It DOES NOT change the spoke calculation whether you are using 12mm or 16mm nipples! 16mm do give a touch more leeway when cutting spokes because they can hide a wheelbuilders miscalculation mistakes, but you should still cut your spokes to the proper length based on ERD. The nipple length does not affect the rim ERD which is the determining factor in spoke length.

BTW, nice wheels, and nice DH build!


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

chaingangster said:


> It DOES NOT change the spoke calculation whether you are using 12mm or 16mm nipples! 16mm do give a touch more leeway when cutting spokes because they can hide a wheelbuilders miscalculation mistakes, but you should still cut your spokes to the proper length based on ERD. The nipple length does not affect the rim ERD which is the determining factor in spoke length.
> 
> BTW, nice wheels, and nice DH build!


I believe others who have posted above and the DT swiss calculator would disagree with you....


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## RamRider (Sep 10, 2009)

climbingbubba said:


> I believe others who have posted above and the DT swiss calculator would disagree with you....


I also believe that the person who just built those wheels (yours truly) would disagree with you. Had I gone with spokes 4mm longer they would have been FAR too long, you need to realize that the rims (823's) call for the longer nipples therefore the spokes must accommodate for them and if you don't take the longer nipples into account you will have spoke ends hitting the undrilled second wall of the rim.

I thought the exact same thing until the guys on here told me otherwise and really got me thinking about it.


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## Salami (Jan 13, 2004)

chaingangster said:


> It DOES NOT change the spoke calculation whether you are using 12mm or 16mm nipples! 16mm do give a touch more leeway when cutting spokes because they can hide a wheelbuilders miscalculation mistakes, but you should still cut your spokes to the proper length based on ERD. The nipple length does not affect the rim ERD which is the determining factor in spoke length.
> 
> BTW, nice wheels, and nice DH build!


If you are referring to DT Swiss than BullSh!t. You are 100 percent WRONG! You obviously have never measured the overall length of the spokes with a 12 & 16mm DT Swiss nipple.


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## chaingangster (Jun 29, 2009)

Proper spoke length is when the end of the spoke is just flush with the bottom of the nipple driver slot in the end of the nipple. This distance does not decrease simply because a 16mm nipple has a longer shank. Most nipple failures occur when the spoke doesn't have enough engagement into the nipple. The head, or hat, of the nipple holds all of the tension against the rim. If the hat is reinforced from within by having the end of the spoke threaded into the material comprising the hat, you achieve a strong junction. If you are 4mm short, as many seem to defend as the proper spoke length, the hat segment of the nipple is hollow, and is nonreinforced material simply pulling against the engaged threads lower down the body of the nipple. While this obviously works, it is not ideal, especially when building with alloy nipples which have a much shorter fatigue life.

The tricky part with 16mm nipple can be bottoming out on the spoke threads if you cut too long. This usually doesn't happen with 12mm nips because the spoke would be protruding out the end of the nipple, and be unusable. With 16mm nips, the threads start further down inside the nipple, and yet still continue to the nipple driver slot. If you are in between spoke lengths, it is better to pick the slightly shorter simply because it is okay to be slightly below the hat of the nipple, but the wheel can't be tensioned if you are bottoming out on the threads.

And for those of you that take the DT spoke calc as gospel, well, good luck! I've encountered a number of inaccuracies, especially in regard to Mavic ERDs.


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## Rockhucker (Aug 1, 2010)

I know this is full on grave dig but I ran across this thread when building my wheelset and it confused me since nobody posting seemed to have ever actually measured the different nipple lengths. Dt swiss nipples all use 9mm of actual threads regardless if it's a 12,14,or 16mm nipple. So it isn't necessary to remove 4mm from the spoke length to compensate for the longer nipples, the only thing this accomplishes is less spoke threads engaged in the nipple. I really don't know why the DT Swiss calculator changes spoke length with nipple length since actual measurements show no reason for it.


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## Salami (Jan 13, 2004)

Rockhucker said:


> I know this is full on grave dig but I ran across this thread when building my wheelset and it confused me since nobody posting seemed to have ever actually measured the different nipple lengths. Dt swiss nipples all use 9mm of actual threads regardless if it's a 12,14,or 16mm nipple. So it isn't necessary to remove 4mm from the spoke length to compensate for the longer nipples, the only thing this accomplishes is less spoke threads engaged in the nipple. I really don't know why the DT Swiss calculator changes spoke length with nipple length since actual measurements show no reason for it.


You just proved your self wrong. 9mm of actual tread but the nipple length is different. Do you see how this adds up?

Increasing the length of the nipple REQUIRES the spoke length to be shortened to compensate.


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## Rockhucker (Aug 1, 2010)

if you look at a 16mm vs a 12mm nipple you would immediately understand. The 16mm nipple just has a longer section to place the wrench on and this longer section isn't actually threaded, so the spoke just slides inside up until it starts hitting the 9mm on threads deep in the nipple.


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## Ithnu (Feb 16, 2007)

So are you saying the extra length isn't threaded and overlaps the spoke? That seems strange. I have 12 and 14mm nipples in my spare parts box, I'm going to have to give them a look.

And I saw my old comment on weight, I have my 823s off the bike now and they weigh 2350, not 2250.


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## ban (Jul 24, 2004)

will it be okay to use 256 spokes with 14mm nipples? I'm ordering a Hope Pro 150 hub and spokes from CRC and they seem to stock only 14mm nipples...


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

Rockhucker said:


> if you look at a 16mm vs a 12mm nipple you would immediately understand. The 16mm nipple just has a longer section to place the wrench on and this longer section isn't actually threaded, so the spoke just slides inside up until it starts hitting the 9mm on threads deep in the nipple.


Then why would EVERY spoke length calculator suggest you get 2 to 4 mm shorter spokes when using the DT 16mm nipples??? The threading must be further out from the fat end of the nipple regardless of any extension past them, no?
I don't have one of each to compare, but need to know since I'm rebuilding a UST Mavic rim.


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## Rockhucker (Aug 1, 2010)

I think 14mm nipples would be fine, they may just be a little more difficult to get the initial tension on but once the wheel is laced they should provide more that enough room for the spoke wrench to fit on. I know there are some people that have used 12mm nipples with a little extra effort. All the DT swiss nipples I have in front of me have 9mm of thread measuring from the fat end out regardless of actual nipple length.


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## Moustache rider (Jun 1, 2007)

I have a 12mm and 16mm nipple sitting in front of me right now, not sure of the brand. 
The 12 has 9mm of thread measured from the fat end and the 16 has 12mm of thread from the fat end. 
Maybe this is not consistent between brands?


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

And they are DT nipples?


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