# Frame Failure, Be Careful



## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

These are pictures of a friend of mine's bike. I am not posting this to be malicious. I am posting this to show all of the (other) amateurs out there that is is very important that you do some things certain ways and that you are careful. If you get in too big of a hurry or do some things halfway, this can be the end result.

This frame was built by an established, experienced framebuilder with a good reputation. I have colored out all of the logo information b/c I am not really trying to black this guy's eye. It does, however, make me pretty angry that this happened. The owner is a very good friend of mine, and this frame broke in a race when he entered a rocky section. He suffered two broken vertebrae (one in the neck, one in the back), a broken nose, two broken cheeks and he lost 3 teeth. He spent 3 weeks in the hospital, and will likely have very large medical bills. The broken vertebrae could have literally killed him right there on the spot. He is recovering well, but he is still all jacked up and won't work for a couple more months.

From my estimation looking closely at the failure locations, a few things appear to me:

1) Does not look like proper surface prep was done on the weld site

2) I don't see the internal fillet that you would get if you ran a stringer around the entire joint before doing the pretty part of the braze. Basically, the entire fillet weld is merely an aesthetic treatment, and not a weld that bonds the 3 pieces of metal together. You might as well use Bondo.

3) I see evidence that there might be a very slight tack on the top of the downtube where it attached to the head tube, but by no means did the builder run a full bead of any sort around the top of the downtube before brazing the top tube to the junction.

4) It appears that the head tube joint failed first, and then the head tube rotated around the bottom of the downtube joint. You can see the buckling on the bottom of the downtube joint. In theory, I believe that if the downtube had a stringer placed all the way around it before the top tube was added on, this would not have been a catastrophic failure. The down tube joint could have held on long enough for him to stop his bike and dismount, instead of slamming him face first into the rocks.

Looking at these pictures honestly scares the jeebus out of me. It makes me really question what I do when I build a frame, and it will definitly make me more careful on my next build.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

eek, that's scary. I wish your friend the best during his recovery.


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## UEDan (Apr 11, 2010)

Judging by the bottlecap headset, I'd say he was using aluminum beer cans.

Kidding aside, scary stuff. Hope your friend makes a full recovery.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

It may be valuable to reveal the builder of the frame, as a warning to other frame owners....


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Other than the complete failure of the fillet which is most probably due to lack of internal fillet, that bike has a huge engineering problem that should have been addressed during the design.

The HT/TT joint is absurd. This is especially pronounced by the red 30mm spacer above the headset that could have been removed by the proper length head tube.

The DT/BB junction is just pathetic. The DT is meeting on center instead of closer to tangent. Gross and rank.

Also, what on earth is such a giagantic TT doing on a bike that small? Cruelty to say the least.

Also, 29er wheels on a bike that small is just a joke. Really? Given what looks to be a 150mm stem, the toe overlap must have been a hazard just navigating the parking lot.

This is pretty bad folks and it took a lot of stupid decisions to get to this.


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## dirtdrop (Dec 29, 2003)

I know who the frame builder is as I saw it posted else where. Hadn't the frame been converted at some point by the original builder for larger wheels or something of that ilk? Sorry if you've already identified this as I'm in a rush right now.


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## rustola (Jan 15, 2008)

Scary. And definitely food for thought.

Please wish your friend the best


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

_"This frame was built by an established, experienced framebuilder with a good reputation."_

I'm guessing you don't want to know how many of those I've employed over the years and how many frames were not even vaguely up to par. It's a particularly annoying American paradigm - you guys aren't fond of saying when something is *****, which means time and time again people get burned by companies and people with 'good reputations'.

Hope your mate has a speedy recovery. The front end of that frame from where I'm sitting is a mess in more ways than the obvious fact it's no longer attached to the rest of the frame.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> It's a particularly annoying American paradigm - you guys aren't fond of saying when something is *****, which means time and time again people get burned by companies and people with 'good reputations'.


I have a pretty bad reputation for saying so. Yup. Nobody here want's a spade called a spade. They would prefer a spade be called daffodils.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

the issues that this sort of thing brings up are pretty sticky. This builder has had a fairly public failure, and it sounds like a fairly large number of people know who the builder was. I assume that builder will pay a price for this to some degree or another. In turn, it is going to cost all small builders to some degree.


And I admit to being wrong on that recent thread about hypothetical frame failures.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

It sort of seems a bit unfair that when a big manufacturer's frame fails its "name and shame" time but if you're a smaller frame builder you can't be named.

Having said that, if you are going to name and shame, you need to be damn sure of your facts before posting something up. Nothing worse than the knee-jerk half thought out post that leaves out a number of significant details...you know the ones "my frame just snapped" but the bit about having put a set of MonsterT's on and riding off a cliff doesn't make the post.

Back on topic - why on earth would anyone make a head tube / top tube / down tube setup like that? I gotta say, one of my pet hates with bike frames is when builders do stuff just to be different, particularly where there are no good engineering reasons for doing so.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

yeah, it sorta says "hinge" to me.


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## Typo_Knig (Aug 8, 2009)

This thread is precisely why I don't advertise my stuff or sell any of it for any sort of profit (I do build for close friends who are willing to buy mat'ls). One failure for someone like me and would ruin any hopes of framebuilding success and likely spill over in to my "real" working life too. 

This **** should not be posted and should be a private issue between builder and owner and maybe, unfortunately, attorneys.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

The thread would be even better if folks would chime in on what would have made things better here. I don't build with fire, but I'll add this:

Do your best to keep the TT and DT from overlapping, especially when the bike will have the added stress of a long fork and/or large wheel. When the tubes overlap, you are reducing their ability to resist the forces. Don't do it to try to increase standover, and if someone needs their bar low, they can invert the stem of find another wheel size.

Use proper construction techniques. This bike used the mass-production method of fitting the tubes and brazing/welding only what was visible. This seems to work with welding(still not a good idea), but did not work here. Fully attach your DT, and then fit the TT and attach it. Give your frame every reason to stay together. Don't allow your vent holes to overlap the attachment areas. Consider proven gusseting methods.

Be a cautious person who expects the worst and takes steps to avoid it.

Get adequate liability insurance if you let anybody own one of your bikes, regardless of amateur or pro status. I'm curious to find out if this builder's insurance pays out.

Don't listen to everything you hear on this, or any, forum. Get as many answers to your question as you can and look for a trend. There's tons of bad information coming from the loudest voices.

The builder should contact every owner of a frame built this way.


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

Typo_Knig said:


> This **** should not be posted and should be a private issue between builder and owner and maybe, unfortunately, attorneys.


I completely disagree. Athough I would never do some of the things that where done on this frame, it's a good learning experience why those things shouldn't be done.

Seriously...only a tack on the top of the bottom tube in the middle of a hole? Seeing the bad things and having them pointed out by others will improve the designs and quality of frames made by rookies, further preventing accidents like the one that happened here.


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

Just FYI, this is not a "small" frame with toe overlap. This rider is 6' tall +/-, and it's about and 18-19" frame, but probably 17" c-c on the seat tube. The bike was built for this rider, for this condition, for 29" wheels. It's no conversion bike or anything like that. 

I agree, the head tube is way too short. 

On the subject of who the builder is, I am a bit torn. It's not that hard to figure out who built it if you know what you're looking at. On one hand, I'd like some people to know that he built a total piece of **** that nearly killed someone. On the other hand, people around here get their panties all wadded up about "publicly blacking someone's eye". Honestly, with a failure like this, I think people need to see it. I do know my friend has at least 1 other bike from the same builder and has been perfectly happy with the bike. He's a pretty typical avid cyclist in that he loves custom frames but doesn't really know much about the design and construction. People see smooth fillets covered with powder and they think it's got to be a great bike. Too bad the surface prep and construction underneath were garbage.


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## HomeGrownSS (Jan 18, 2006)

it doesnt take an engineer to know that was a bad idea!


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## Typo_Knig (Aug 8, 2009)

There is a HUGE discrepency between a builder saying "look at my failure and learn from it" and the public saying "ZOMG, this builder's frame failed!"

Not to defend the builder, that frame was garbage, but this would be a more productive _what-not-to-do _had he, the builder, posted this himself. I am sure he is already aware of this failure.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Yeah, PVD nailed it.. the huge spacer and what appears to be a longish positive rise stem all point to the ht being way too short. Long ht's rock. So much for custom fit!

I think the 'custom' thing is way too over blown, mainly as the *only* way a lot of builders can differntiate themselves from the mass made market. I'd take a 'production' bike from a good reptable company/builder any day over some guy waxing poetic about custom this and custom that.


-Schmitty-


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

- Publicly naming a frame builder who did everything right an still had a frame fail - DON'T DO THIS.

- Publicly naming a frame builder who made a dangerous frame with multiple design mistakes and shoddy workmanship - DO THIS.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> The thread would be even better if folks would chime in on what would have made things better here. I don't build with fire, but I'll add this:
> 
> Do your best to keep the TT and DT from overlapping, especially when the bike will have the added stress of a long fork and/or large wheel. When the tubes overlap, you are reducing their ability to resist the forces. Don't do it to try to increase standover, and if someone needs their bar low, they can invert the stem of find another wheel size.
> 
> ...


Excellent post & I agree 100%, especially that last paragraph.

I'll say this, that builder has built 1,000s of bikes and has a lot of them out there on the ground, some with over 20 years of service. I see things there I wouldn't do, but, the technique he used for brazing (not joining the DT/TT overlap) has been used on, literally, millions of production bikes. I wouldn't do it, but that doesn't make it _wrong._

All builders who've built many bikes, production and bespoke, have had bikes that break. All of them. Since we all live in glass houses, that's why most folks with real experience are hesitant to throw stones. You try to make it so it only happens to maybe 1 in a 1,000, and only due to causes that aren't workmanship related. Build conservatively & consider the consequences of poor craftsmanship, especially your joinery. Crap welds, porous fillets, and poor technique can all have disastrous consequences.

If I had to hazard a guess as to head tube length, I'd say the frame was designed for a suspension fork and a much higher front end than the rigid fork provides.

Francis, my best wishes to your buddy & his family. Rest assured his insurance company will extract their pound of flesh from the builder. I hope the builder is paid up on his premiums.


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## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

Yikes, I hope your friend recovers well, and as quickly as one can from those injuries. 

The builder must feel pretty terrible.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Every time you build a long fork with a short head tube, God plants a Goathead Thorn.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

bad mechanic said:


> - Publicly naming a frame builder who did everything right an still had a frame fail - DON'T DO THIS.
> 
> - Publicly naming a frame builder who made a dangerous frame with multiple design mistakes and shoddy workmanship - DO THIS.


I've seen some pictures of frames where the builder made a mistake, and the frame failed in a non-health threatening manner, and I wonder if that sort of thing is worth costing a guy his business. Then again, I have seen some pictures of work shoddy enough that I wish the builder would get another job, like beer taster or something. But I'm soft-hearted and don't want to be a party to lowering the boom. With enough pictures like this, I won't have to worry, the market will take care of the problem. This is bad enough it makes me worry about insurance premiums; insurance companies don't like to lose money.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

I see both sides of this argument. 

I related a story a bit ago about my 2nd/3rd frame I made that I gave away for free and was raced at a very high level for 1.5 years. I poorly brazed the ST to the BB and it pulled from its shell. It was annoying but not catastrophic. I fixed it for free, repainted it and the rider used it for another year. 

Last year a friend overheard a store employee telling a customer that "my frames break" referencing this incident 16 years prior. You Never live this stuff down. People have a long memory and hold framebuilders to extremely high standards they would never hold big companies too.

I learned something from this break. I agree it could have been done better and the guy will be o.k. but he was seriously hurt. I wouldn't have done it that way but none of us are immune from failures. All we can do is consistently learn throughout our careers.

I will say this. I know the builder and he is a well known with a good rep. He is also extremely budget oriented. If you think someone is offering product for that little money and also spending all the time "we" here feel necessary to prep and weld and so on and so on, They are not. They cannot and make any money at the same time. So yes, in some instances you get what you pay for. My guess is that his business really won't be affected much because his main draw is low price and if that is your #1 priority as a buyer than it still will be.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

bad mechanic said:


> - Publicly naming a frame builder who did everything right an still had a frame fail - DON'T DO THIS.
> 
> - Publicly naming a frame builder who made a dangerous frame with multiple design mistakes and shoddy workmanship - DO THIS.


Well said! So....any hints on who built the frame? I'd like to know, as I'm interested in picking up a steel 29er sometime soon (probably used.)


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

jtmartino said:


> Well said! So....any hints on who built the frame? I'd like to know, as I'm interested in picking up a steel 29er sometime soon (probably used.)


not to pick on tmartino, but this is the dynamic threads like this cause. This builder apparently has hundreds of frames in use daily, one catastrophic failure and people want to avoid his frames. But a lot of lurkers are going to see this thread and say "I'm buying a Trek."

I would like to see better images of the fracture surface, I'm wondering if it really went from initiation to rupture in one blow, or if there was a crack growing. I'd guess it took a while.


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> I learned something from this break. I agree it could have been done better and the guy will be o.k. but he was seriously hurt. I wouldn't have done it that way but none of us are immune from failures. All we can do is consistently learn throughout our careers.
> 
> I will say this. I know the builder and he is a well known with a good rep. He is also extremely budget oriented. If you think someone is offering product for that little money and also spending all the time "we" here feel necessary to prep and weld and so on and so on, They are not. They cannot and make any money at the same time. So yes, in some instances you get what you pay for. My guess is that his business really won't be affected much because his main draw is low price and if that is your #1 priority as a buyer than it still will be.


I agree fully Dave. I didn't post these pictures to be malicious or to drive the guy out of business. I don't wish him any ill will as a person or any of that.

It does, however, piss me off that he is selling products at low costs by, I guess, cutting a few corners. This means that other pro's out there are losing potential sales to a competitor that may be selling apples to oranges. I see this all the time in the engineering world where I have to compete against firms that I know will not do as much due diligence or service the client like my firm will. At the end of the day, our competitors are sometimes chosen purely on price b/c our clients do not necessarily know the difference. When you get a $5 haircut, sometimes you get what you pay for.

I am sure (hopeful?) that a large majority of his frames are joined correctly with full penetration, etc. and will last for many years. This is (I believe) the second frame this guy has purchased from the builder, and the first one had quite a few years of duty with no issues.

I do think that there are some serious lessons to be learned here though. One of those things is factor of safety. I would say that there are 3-4 things wrong with the head tube junction overall. If any one of them had not been present, then the failure would (possibly) not have been nearly as catastrophic, and he would have been able to stop riding before the head tube was completely torn off. We all make mistakes, and we've all shipped product out the door that wasn't necessarily as perfect as it should be, myself included. The factor of safety in design is there so that even if you do make one or two errors in your design/construction, no one will get killed. When you have too many errors at the same time, you end up with catastrophic failure and somebody gets f-ed up pretty bad.

I don't know if the builder has been made (directly) aware of the situation by the owner. He has not made any mention of it in email conversations, etc. He's not really the kind of guy to go directly to lawsuit or any of that, but I'm certain that there will be some type of conversation in that direction, as he is likely to have over $100k in medical bills. He's already had one facial surgery with titanium plates placed in his cheeks to aid the recovery. He has to go back for a future surgery to remove them.


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## blackgt (May 27, 2010)

D.F.L. said:


> The thread would be even better if folks would chime in on what would have made things better here. I don't build with fire, but I'll add this:
> 
> Do your best to keep the TT and DT from overlapping, especially when the bike will have the added stress of a long fork and/or large wheel. When the tubes overlap, you are reducing their ability to resist the forces. Don't do it to try to increase standover, and if someone needs their bar low, they can invert the stem of find another wheel size.
> 
> ...


This is helpful info for those of us who only dabble building a few frames a year. thanks.

I'm quite heavy and ride some rough trails, I inspect all my joints every other ride for signs of cracking. I might just change that to every ride now!

I hope the guy makes a full recovery.

I am curious to see PVD's wiki expanded with his definitions of Pathetic, Gross, and Absurd...


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Francis Buxton said:


> I don't know if the builder has been made (directly) aware of the situation by the owner. He has not made any mention of it in email conversations, etc. He's not really the kind of guy to go directly to lawsuit or any of that, but I'm certain that there will be some type of conversation in that direction, as he is likely to have over $100k in medical bills. He's already had one facial surgery with titanium plates placed in his cheeks to aid the recovery. He has to go back for a future surgery to remove them.


The stark reality is that it doesn't matter what your friend wants to do in this case, his insurance does not want to be held to paying for his medical bills and they will be enormous (sounds to me like $100K won't even begin to cover it); they will go back to the builder & his liability insurance for compensation. Remember folks, liability insurance is not just to protect you, it's also to protect your customer and ensure he can be made whole if he's injured due to your negligence.


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> Well said! So....any hints on who built the frame? I'd like to know, as I'm interested in picking up a steel 29er sometime soon (probably used.)


Do your research. Took me 2 minutes to figure it out.

Hints: 
popular frame builder
curved (slightly) seat stays
forward facing seat post bolt
short headtube
Only one place name is on bike (downtube)
You can sort of see the head tube badge
pretty distinctive disc brake tabs in rear

needless to say, having seen this, Im glad I went with someone else. This is the price consumers may pay for demanding quick turnaround time from a builder.


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## timroz (Feb 25, 2007)

Do any (large or small) builders have insurance that will cover injuries sustained in a race? Racing is not JRA. I've always assumed that anything that happens to me or my bike in a race is probably on my dime.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

AFAIK, racing is not excluded on the typical NIPC insurance policy.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

DWF, and DFL have it straight.

This guy has thousands of frames all around the world having the crap ridden out of them.. for decades.

While it *appears* there were things that could have been done much better, YOU NEVER HAVE THE FULL STORY VIA THE WEB.

BTW, this mitering technique is being discussed here:
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f10/design-detail-not-worth-repeating-16716.html

Was the frame crashed heavily before? Run into a garage? How old is it? How was the fit info gathered, etc, etc. is the guy a drunk who crashes his bikes into walls every Saturday night (I have one of those out there.. talk about scary)? There's a million possibilities.

I've seen pics of a frame by this builder that was in a head on with a truck, and the joints didn't fail. What does that mean.. not much other than it's not a black and white deal.

Hope it works out for all involved, and hope this thread gives everyone food for thought.

-Schmitty-


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

All this is unfortunate for the rider and for the reputation of the builder.............when one has the "luxury" of being able to see the fault so succinctly in design and practice, it sheds light on the responsibility the builder has towards quality no matter what the "asking price" of the product. I feel very sorry for the rider and hope for a full recovery.........riding a bike can be dangerous at times but stuff like this is not suppose to happen and when it does cold shivers are felt through out the cycling collective, for it could happen to anyone of us.


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

DWF said:


> The stark reality is that it doesn't matter what your friend wants to do in this case, his insurance does not want to be held to paying for his medical bills and they will be enormous (sounds to me like $100K won't even begin to cover it); they will go back to the builder & his liability insurance for compensation. Remember folks, liability insurance is not just to protect you, it's also to protect your customer and ensure he can be made whole if he's injured due to your negligence.


Especially considering that his wife works for an insurance company.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

I also wish your friend a good recovery. This was a very educational post for me, although I wouldn't build a frame like that for aesthetic reasons, now I know about the structural risks as well. I am also surprised about the builder.


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

Geez, that sucks. Ditto on the hopes for a speedy recovery. Sorry for the builder too. I think I'll continue inspecting the new frame after every ride. Needless to say, my building technique is far, far from flawless.

Drew


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

dompedro3 said:


> Do your research. Took me 2 minutes to figure it out.
> 
> Hints:
> popular frame builder
> ...


Yeah I figured it out, I just was feeling lazy and didn't want to go look at a bunch of pics and figure out who built it...

That being said, I'd still own a bike from that builder. Especially an older one  I've broken a couple frames in the past, and would still purchase from the same manufacturers in the future. I guess I was more curious than anything, and now I know what to look for if I check out some used bikes.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I'm not a builder nor am I defending anybody. However, I have seen many of this builder's bikes on the trails over the years, and they all have been ridden really, really hard. I'm not going to speculate about the history of this bike or its design. It's not to my taste, but I dislike 29ers anyway....

I hope the rider makes a quick and complete recovery. I can't imagine what he and his family is going through. Yikes. I also wish the builder the best.


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## HomeGrownSS (Jan 18, 2006)

why does everyone except me know who the builder is?


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

HomeGrownSS said:


> why does everyone except me know who the builder is?


you're not one of the cool kids


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I have seen quite a few of this builder's bikes over the years. And I am a bike geek in general.


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

Who is the builder?

[edit] well, now I think I know who it is.... but I'm not sure. Which is probably worse than knowing for sure.


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## bent steel (Oct 24, 2005)

If you think you know, and you check that builders website, there should be little remaining doubt.

I can't say one occurrence is enough to write him off, but that design does seem really compromised, from a layman's point of view. I'm glad I'm tall and don't have to deal with such short head tubes.


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## marks_bike (Aug 22, 2006)

I did some digging and found out some things about this bike. First, this is the second time this frame has had a failure, the first time it cracked on the st 3/4 of the way around the tube and about 1.5" below the tt. The rider had noticed a "creak" over the last few days and thought it was the BB. So my question is could riding around with the cracked st possibly weaken the tt/ht joint cause it to fail at a later date as it did?

Also, according to the dude who actually owns the bike (found his blog, face was jacked) sounds like he was able to make a full recovery (happened about a month ago).


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

marks_bike said:


> I did some digging and found out some things about this bike. First, this is the second time this frame has had a failure, the first time it cracked on the st 3/4 of the way around the tube and about 1.5" below the tt. The rider had noticed a "creak" over the last few days and thought it was the BB. So my question is could riding around with the cracked st possibly weaken the tt/ht joint cause it to fail at a later date as it did?
> 
> Also, according to the dude who actually owns the bike (found his blog, face was jacked) sounds like he was able to make a full recovery (happened about a month ago).


It looks like that bike has seen a fair bit of use. Back in September of 2007, the owner mentioned that the bike had already been broken twice.

He has the pic of his bike posted above the text below.

"_[Some frame builder]_ has been fantastic to deal with. I've broken the frame twice. Once soon after getting it and again last summer after many years of quality use. He's never balked at fixing it or speaking with me via email or on the phone. I suppose I owe him thanks for that."

In his text above this regarding another subject, he mentioned breaking some cranks. This guy rides...he uses his bikes (I'm not implying _abuses_).

One of the previous cracks that was on the seat tube back in October 2006 doesn't look that bad. His blog only goes back to 2005, but I'd guess this frame is a bit older than that, since he doesn't mention first getting the bike like he does with his other cycling acquisitions.

And as somebody had guessed, this bike has spent some time with a Reba on it.

While I don't particularly care for the methods of construction, this frame has seen a lot of seat time. And from the looks of this guy, he's quite a strong - and seemingly a well-accomplished rider. I think this frame has seen a fair bit of use, and it's time was done.

I hope the guy gets wells soon. From his blog, he has quite a nice life! Sorry to see bad things happen to good people.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I don't know what to think at this point.


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## Monte (Dec 20, 2003)

DWF said:


> If I had to hazard a guess as to head tube length, I'd say the frame was designed for a suspension fork and a much higher front end than the rigid fork provides.


I've seen pics of the frame when it was first built, it does have a suspension fork, the owner loved the fit. Not to making light of anything, or an excuse, the frame is over 3 years old.

All the best to the rider and his family.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Monte said:


> ...the frame is over 3 years old...


So what is the consensus (if any) on how long a frame should last? Does this mean if you get a custom made frame you should chuck it out after 3, 5, 10 years?

If this is really the case then I'd want to be informed at the time I ordered the frame. And years really isn't a good indicator, perhaps frames should have a recommended lifetime in kilometres or something like that.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

HomeGrownSS said:


> why does everyone except me know who the builder is?


Builders name begins with a C and ends with an O. It was all over Drunkcyclist last week.
Look at the rust on the HT? Rider should have been checking his gear. Probably started as a small crack. Yep taller head tube and bit longer frame.

Tim


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## 3wfab (Aug 1, 2010)

TimT said:


> Builders name begins with a C and ends with an O. It was all over Drunkcyclist last week.
> Look at the rust on the HT? Rider should have been checking his gear. Probably started as a small crack. Yep taller head tube and bit longer frame.
> 
> Tim


I see another well know builder that has similar features and its not the one I believe is referenced in the above quote. Certainly a drawback by not naming the builder as it can implicate others on speculation.

Similar incident last year in a confusion between an IF and a Strong frame (believe it was here too)

I'm not saying to name this builder, but tread lightly as not too spread the disease.


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## 3wfab (Aug 1, 2010)

[QUOTE
Builders name begins with a C and ends with an O. It was all over Drunkcyclist last week.
Look at the rust on the HT? Rider should have been checking his gear. Probably started as a small crack. Yep taller head tube and bit longer frame.

Tim][/QUOTE]

I see another well know builder that has similar features and its not the one I believe is referenced in the above quote. Certainly a drawback by not naming the builder as it can implicate others on speculation.

Similar incident last year in a confusion between an IF and a Strong frame (believe it was here too)

I'm not saying to name this builder, but tread lightly as not too spread the disease.

excuse the double post but my first was placed in the middle of this discussion-first post go figure


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

TimT said:


> Builders name begins with a C and ends with an O.


I can just see Chris King going "Doh!"


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

A frame should never ever fail like this. Remember this was an engineering and construction nightmare. It was also, literally, a catostrophic failure. That is never ever ok.

The only way a frame should fail is by rusting through and that only goes for steel bikes.

I still haven't got the builder id'd. Can someone pm me who did this?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Nevermind. Found it.

Super lame. It look like there are lots of these accidents waiting to happen just looking at the galleries.


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

I see the downtube is buckled pretty good. The braze took quite a hit before breaking.
It's my opinion that if the HT hadn't snapped off, the frame would have twisted under anyway.

I have seen quite a few 29ers with the same overlapping tube joint, and although I think it is stupid, I can't single out this builder for fault. I would think he may want to reconsider his approach. I also think that this joint configuration lends itself to a stress riser at the center if it is not joined with braze.


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## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

shovelon said:


> I see the downtube is buckled pretty good. The braze took quite a hit before breaking.


Its just as likely the crack started, failed across the top, and buckled the downtube on the way to the faceplant. Its ALL conjecture what exactly happened w/o better pics (and even then its only a more educated one.) Doesn't change the poor design/execution though.


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

pvd said:


> It look like there are lots of these accidents waiting to happen just looking at the galleries.


I agree. Kind of ironic he has a "break-away" section in his gallery...


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

TigWorld said:


> So what is the consensus (if any) on how long a frame should last? Does this mean if you get a custom made frame you should chuck it out after 3, 5, 10 years?
> 
> If this is really the case then I'd want to be informed at the time I ordered the frame. And years really isn't a good indicator, perhaps frames should have a recommended lifetime in kilometres or something like that.


I weigh 190 and ride/race on lightweight 26" steel hardtails. I bomb the hills, hit some smaller drops, and generally beat up my bikes. The only time I've broken frames is when they're used incorrectly (like running too long of fork). Frames should last a really long time if ridden properly...it seems like this one was just lacking the construction quality normally associated with the brand.


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## rustola (Jan 15, 2008)

ScaryJerry said:


> I agree. Kind of ironic he has a "break-away" section in his gallery...


How bout the "outlet store"?!


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

shovelon said:


> I see the downtube is buckled pretty good.


I'm 99% sure that that buckle was produced as the head tube was tearing off. This is not an example of an abusive situation. Bad engineering and construction combined with normal use.


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## Wolfhound Cycles (Feb 20, 2010)

*Its Not A Coconino!*

That was the first name that popped into my head when some one said starts w/a C and ends w/an O, because Steve is my bud. But the craftsmanship doesn't look anything like something he would do. It's just that somebody also said forward facing pinch bolt and slightly curved seatstays.........Steve does those things,.....because they are good.

I really couldn't believe it would be Garro anyway, because there is nothing in his gallery that looks like that (other than the first and last letters mentioned, and the forward facing pinch bolt and slightly bent stays).

I just wanted to make sure no one had the wrong guy, it was giving me a sympathetic anxiety attack for Mr. Garro.


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

Also not Cielo.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Clockwork Bikes said:


> Also not Cielo.


Just to be thorough, it's not Cervelo, Cilo, or Colnago either.

Please direct your torches and pitchforks elsewhere.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Dang I just did not think that there were that many frame builders that started with a C and ended with an O. Sorry if I gave any one a heart attack. 

Tim


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

It's also not the state of Colorado (CO).


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

Wolfhound Cycles said:


> That was the first name that popped into my head when some one said starts w/a C and ends w/an O, because Steve is my bud. But the craftsmanship doesn't look anything like something he would do. It's just that somebody also said forward facing pinch bolt and slightly curved seatstays.........Steve does those things,.....because they are good.
> 
> I really couldn't believe it would be Garro anyway, because there is nothing in his gallery that looks like that (other than the first and last letters mentioned, and the forward facing pinch bolt and slightly bent stays).
> 
> I just wanted to make sure no one had the wrong guy, it was giving me a sympathetic anxiety attack for Mr. Garro.


nope, rhymes with Hurtlo


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

http://drunkcyclist.com/2010/07/28/near-death-experiences/


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

Ok.


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## moto367 (Nov 20, 2006)

pvd said:


> Nevermind. Found it.
> 
> Super lame. It look like there are lots of these accidents waiting to happen just looking at the galleries.


Looking at the galleries, it was hard to say for sure but did some of the HT's look like they were reinforced?


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

*Lame*

Great to see MTBR posters dragging a reputable builder's reputation through the mud.:bluefrown:

Lets be realistic, "Hurtlo" has probably made more frames than anybody on this board. And when I did my research before buying, nobody here had anything but good things to say about his workmanship. I was impressed.

Yes, the whole situation is definitely a bummer. But it seems like placing the blame solely on the builder is a little disingenuous. Putting a long rigid fork on a 3-yr old+ light steel frame which has already failed a few times, and racing it seems kinda stupid to me. And I don't see people here getting worked up about production frames that have failure rates over %50 in the first season of use?! I've got pictures of that, but don't need to air my dirty laundry on the web.

Well, this thread had me worried but I had a great ride on my Hurtlo last night and decided opinions are like hot air.... better to enjoy the ride (and inspect it frequently  )


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

btw the "Hurtlo" thing was a joke that apparently sounds much worse than I meant it to. Shoulda said "Murtlo" or something more silly


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## Monte (Dec 20, 2003)

Francis Buxton said:


> ....and this frame broke in a race when he entered a rocky section....


we don't even know what the "rocky section" looks like. that's the other side of the coin we haven't seen.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

FM said:


> Putting a long rigid fork on a 3-yr old+ light steel frame which has already failed a few times, and racing it seems kinda stupid to me. )


3 year old bikes for me are just getting broke in. And how do you know this frame already failed "a few times". Should have been retired after the first failure. Hey look the Titanic wasn't supposed to sink ,but it did and any one who thinks that any thing man made won't/can't break is living in a fantasy world. Besides I did mention the rust on the HT. Were did that come from? How about some better close ups of the HT and rest of the frame.

Tim


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

FM said:


> Great to see MTBR posters dragging a reputable builder's reputation through the mud.


This guy is no longer a reputable builder. You've got pretty low standards that even one case of this kind of bull$hit is acceptable on any level. This was not an accident. As has been covered, there are at least 3 major reasons why this happened and should all have been prevented. Sorry bro, 20 years of building have been flushed down the toilet.

I'm glad the guy that got hurt is gonna heal, but he got SERIOUSLY messed up and could have been killed because some clown took shortcuts and was absolutely stupid.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

shirk said:


> http://drunkcyclist.com/2010/07/28/near-death-experiences/


Oh a fukcing single speeder.. no wonder.

Seriously though, maybe he did something *really* stupid like plow into a huge rock garden at top speed with no suspension.

Anyone who dismisses this builder b/c of some anecdotal stuff on the web is off base. From what I can gather, he has more experience building bikes than everyone who's chimmed in so far combined. And that's not to say the builder *may not* be at fault. Dig? The story is far from clear.

Maybe the 'racing voids warranty' language isn't such a bad idea.

-Schmitty-


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Schmitty said:


> Anyone who dismisses this builder b/c of some anecdotal stuff on the web is off base. From what I can gather, he has more experience building bikes than everyone who's chimmed in so far combined. And that's not to say the builder *may not* be at fault. Dig? The story is far from clear.
> -Schmitty-


Schmitty,

I agree with you. You build enough stuff and eventually something is going to give. I will say though. I am two years shy of this builder and just because somebody makes a lot of something does not eminently qualify them as being good. Now I am not saying that about this particular builder but I am fully of the belief that somebody can absolutely do something for 20-30-40 years and be absolutely terrible at it. I have met all sorts of professionals from engineers to plumbers who even after full careers barely know s--t from Shinola, as my grandfather would say.

With that said, I think we should start another thread about some of the very particulars to look for on a well constructed and designed bicycle frame. I.e. I have no idea what particular details were in this frame but let's take the work of Steve Garro for instance. Seat collars are a great idea and a good bit of insurance as Steve does. Full circumference welds if it can be incorporated into the design. Smooth fillet brazing without changes in width and dips, voids etc (i.e. look at Steves work as a good example of what to do right) Cleanliness is next to godliness. If in doubt overbuild. That kind of stuff.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

TimT said:


> 3 year old bikes for me are just getting broke in. And how do you know this frame already failed "a few times". Should have been retired after the first failure. Hey look the Titanic wasn't supposed to sink ,but it did and any one who thinks that any thing man made won't/can't break is living in a fantasy world. Besides I did mention the rust on the HT. Were did that come from? How about some better close ups of the HT and rest of the frame.
> 
> Tim


The guy's blog says that that frame has failed a number of times.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Vlad said:


> The guy's blog says that that frame has failed a number of times.


...from the same blog post (different bike). How the hell does this happen? :crazy: 









Anyways- were all titled to our own opinions.
This whole story is just a little too JRA for me. Sure.... it's all the frame builders fault. And if that stem fails, then Thomson is no longer a reputable builder?

Certainly some valid points about what could have been built better. But I still think this could have easily been avoided with a little common sense (i.e. inspect your frames regularly, if a frame fails twice it's probably time to retire it, etc).

I still think putting a long rigid fork on a brazed frame, that's failed and been repaired several times, was a recipe for disaster.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Schmitty said:


> Anyone who dismisses this builder b/c of some anecdotal stuff on the web is off base.


I'm about 100% certian that he's being dismissed because a head tube COMPLETELY SEPARATED FROM A BIKE. This is a big f'ing deal. That head tube wasn't even connected. You can run a rigid fork into a wall and bend something, but complete separation is utter and complete bull$hit.


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## mitzikatzi (Sep 9, 2008)

dbohemian said:


> ....SNIP...
> 
> With that said, *I think we should start another thread about some of the very particulars to look for on a well constructed and designed bicycle frame*. I.e. I have no idea what particular details were in this frame but let's take the work of Steve Garro for instance. Seat collars are a great idea and a good bit of insurance as Steve does. Full circumference welds if it can be incorporated into the design. Smooth fillet brazing without changes in width and dips, voids etc (i.e. look at Steves work as a good example of what to do right) Cleanliness is next to godliness. If in doubt overbuild. That kind of stuff.


Yes I would like to see a thread like this.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I forgot to ask, what kind of fork was he running? It kind of looks like a Sycip.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

So far no ones putting any blame on the owner/rider. WTF? look at the TT and the HT there is a rust line going all the way around it. What ever happened to "check your gear" Lets see thin tube steel and rust........ever hear of Frame Saver?
Cracked face plate on a stem. Seen that at least a dozen times. On different stems. Happens when you over tighten the face plate or cock it while tightening. Is it owned by the same guy with the Curtlo? If so the guy needs to not work on his bike or get another mechanic ASAP.
Bad design on a bike frame. Not really, I have 3 bikes in my garage with that same general design (TT DT intersection) a Raliegh M40 a Redline PL 26 MTB and a Titus Motolight. The Redline is a '98 (not sure on exact year but its over 10 years old at any rate) with thousands of miles on it. Maybe brazing doesn't work to well with this design but still.....
Really I want to see some more detailed close up pictures of the break. With what I see some rust got on the inside of the top tube and weakened it. Dude went into a rocky section smacked a rock just right and the junction unzipped. 

Tim


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

pvd said:


> ... but complete separation is utter and complete bull$hit.


This is a pretty solid point. I always understood that with a "proper" fillet brazed joint, the joint itself should be stronger than the tubing. If he hucked this thing off a skyscraper tubing deformation or separation away from the welds is what you'd expect.

I feel for everyone involved. Building anything whose failure may result in personal injury places a big responsibility on the builder. A little residual oil or some other contaminant, an interruption half way through the job, any number of things can lead to a small screw-up that comes back to bit you (or the rider) at some unknown point in the potentially distant future. I see this sort of stuff and count my lucky stars that I've never had to fabricate anything where weight (or material cost) was a key driver. When people's safety is in play its a great luxury to be able to use more material to increase a safety margin.


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Shush, you shouldn't mention the name Curtlo, not everyone might have worked that out now ;-)

I don't know enough about frame design to comment on this, but if he has been negligent on the design surely this is criminal negligence?

The difference between the guy with the shattered spine dieing and living was luck.

If he did die, would this thread read much different, because the only difference was luck?

I do not know if this design was negligent, but if it was someone belongs in jail, he could have killed someone.
If the design was not negligent, that is a different story.

I don't know the difference, so leave that one to the experts.


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## ted wojcik (Mar 12, 2006)

Maybe you all shouldn't be analyzing this failure without the proper credentials. I will be the first to admit that I cannot build a frame that cannot be broken. I have been building for 30 years now and will say a builder is limited to what he/she can do by the materials at hand and skill in joining techniques. I have seen failures similar to this in all types of frame materials, joining techniques, and operating environments.The rider does have to take some responsibility in what is done with the bike. Over the years there has been a trend at some race courses to make the routes go through areas that are difficult to even walk through. Does not the promoter have a responsibility here as well? I read the thread about the changes in headset standards and fork steerers and wonder if anyone has considered how this is going to increase the stress and stress cycles on frames. Do you think it is really going to result in faster times and reduce fatigue enough to better a finishing position. These conclusions are only speculation. Most of the changes in frame standards to increase dependability and longevity will become obsolete before there is evidence of longer life and better performance. The mountain bike market has matured to the point where things have become really market driven. I have mountain bikes in my shop built over 25 years ago with square taper bottom brackets and 1" headsets. They are still being ridden and fun is still being had. "Doc, whenever I do this, my arm hurts." Doc says, "Well don't do that"


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## Monte (Dec 20, 2003)

CaveGiant said:


> Shush, you shouldn't mention the name Curtlo, not everyone might have worked that out now ;-)
> 
> I don't know enough about frame design to comment on this, but if he has been negligent on the design surely this is criminal negligence?
> 
> ...


If you don't know the difference, then don't say anything at all. Criminal negligence? So, should Marzocchi get shut down because of the fork steerer tube I saw snap on the North Shore in BC a few years back?


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

FM said:


> Great to see MTBR posters dragging a reputable builder's reputation through the mud.:bluefrown:
> 
> Lets be realistic, "Hurtlo" has probably made more frames than anybody on this board. And when I did my research before buying, nobody here had anything but good things to say about his workmanship. I was impressed.
> 
> ...


I somewhat agree, but...

Also had a frame from this builder that started to develop a crack on the underside of the HT and DT junction. Had another local builder at the time reinforce things, and it eventually failed anyhow. If I'd not noticed the initial crack and kept riding it, would mine have failed in the same way? I suspect yes.

HOWEVER - (IMO) mine failed in the long run due to bad gusset design and placement by the dude who added the later bit, running a fork a bit taller than specced for, and riding the thing at Keystone in a manner it was not at _all_ meant for. Failed at the tip of the gusset on the DT - loaded all the stresses right to a point, and the tube ripped apart. It was very, very scary, and luckily left me uninjured other than some cuts and scrapes.










You can just barely see the edge of the arrow shaped gusset on the side of the TT, behind the HT. I've since learned that type of gusset is pretty much worthless. Heh.

Your front end is also worlds apart in design and function than his norm. I'd feel much, much safer with yours!


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm thinking this probably wasn't a catastrophic failure, there probably was a fairly long crack before the race started. It really would be nice to see better pictures,


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

TimT said:


> Cracked face plate on a stem. Seen that at least a dozen times. On different stems. Happens when you over tighten the face plate or cock it while tightening. Is it owned by the same guy with the Curtlo? If so the guy needs to not work on his bike or get another mechanic ASAP.


not the same person. Stem was the blogger's, frame was a friend of the bloggers.

It's far from unknown for a Thomson face plate to crack even when properly installed with a torque wrench because they are not forged


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

I think criminal charges are not warranted, nor are they appropriate. Honestly, I'm not so sure that even a civil action is warranted. But I'm an "anti-lawsuit" kind of person who has never really been involved in any type of terrible product failure, so I can see how somebody on the other side of the fence might see things a little differently.

One thing is 100% agreed upon, though. Nobody forced the rider to buy that brand or ride that race with that fork, etc. etc. But really, I guess that means squat. Lousy situation for all involved.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

RoyDean said:


> I think criminal charges are not warranted, nor are they appropriate. Honestly, I'm not so sure that even a civil action is warranted.


Gross negligence or criminal negligence means that somebody had the intent to injure another from the outset. I.e. the builder designed and built the frame with the intent of injuring another.

I can absolutely guarantee that this builder DID NOT premeditatedly go forth with intent to cause injury. None of us do.

I once knew a store owner who got sued for just selling a stem that eventually broke (used three years, sold once) His insurance paid out. The claim being the store owner should have realized the design was faulty (like store owners are engineers or have a choice) So we live in a litigious society. By no means though was this anything but an accident. No one intended for it to be this way.


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## juice (Feb 8, 2004)

CaveGiant said:


> Shush, you shouldn't mention the name Curtlo, not everyone might have worked that out now ;-)
> 
> I don't know enough about frame design to comment on this, but if he has been negligent on the design surely this is criminal negligence?
> 
> ...


Grow up, and accept risks in life. If we litigate every mistake, then our sport is dead. Attitudes like this really chap my hide, and limit my ability take my own risks in life because companies and land managers and trail builders all get scared of lawsuits.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

dbohemian said:


> Gross negligence or criminal negligence means that somebody had the intent to injure another from the outset. I.e. the builder designed and built the frame with the intent of injuring another.


No.

This is exactly a case of gross neglengence. Known $hitty braze, known $hitty techinique, known $hitty engineering. This is a clear cut case of GROSS NEGLEGENCE that a 10 year old could spot. It won't get to court since it's so completely beligerant. Seriously, wow!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_negligence


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

that really is a worst case scenario for both builder and rider. Hope everybody comes out of this able bodied and still in business.


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## chauzie (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm not familiar with Curtlo.

However, I'm familiar with Specialized and Toyota and GM. When Specialized has something fail, the pees on here are more than happy to bash it. But with it's a small builder, then give him a break??? bs! I also see lots of people bashing Toyota and GM for their failures too. Failure is a failure. Make no exception about who made it.

Having said that, I would like to hear more detail about how and why this bike failed, and perhpas a failure analysis (which I don't think we'll see here).

This is one of the reasons I stay away from all small and medium builders, and stick only with the big manufacturer. Theory is that the big guys make so so many bikes that they have a load more experience and resource to see the bike won't fail, and in the event hat their product does fail catastrophically, they'll have good insurance (so we can go after them). With a small or boutique builder, good luck with their insurance.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

chauzie said:


> they'll have good insurance (so we can go after them). With a small or boutique builder, good luck with their insurance.


ugh, not sure how you meant that but it makes you sound vengeful and mean-hearted. The real point of insurance is for the builder to be able to cover injury and other liabilities, not so you can "go after them". Most small builders have insurance too btw


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## Wolfhound Cycles (Feb 20, 2010)

chauzie said:


> I'm not familiar with Curtlo.
> 
> However, I'm familiar with Specialized and Toyota and GM. When Specialized has something fail, the pees on here are more than happy to bash it. But with it's a small builder, then give him a break??? bs! I also see lots of people bashing Toyota and GM for their failures too. Failure is a failure. Make no exception about who made it.
> 
> ...


Don't forget about the "just crankin um out" factor of a big manufacturer. In some cases a lot of people standing in the same place, repeating the same procedure over and over again - all day long. The bottom line is getting as much product produced in the shortest amount of time....not necessarily the best scenario for ultimate reliability. 
Any legitimate "boutique" small builder will have insurance, and it's good insurance from companies with policies specifically designed for the bicycle industry. The premiums are down right painful (ask any legitimate small builder), but it's because they have to be ready to cover similar cases as this.
Don't write off small builders, just have the sense to ask them if they are insured before sending in your deposit.


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## chauzie (Mar 8, 2010)

More power to those people who got injured or experiencing near death and still ok with the builder. 

Broken vertebrae is not something I would consider an easily forgivable thing. Things could still go wrong once it's healed (eg, old age could later affect it in ways you didn't think possible 20, 30 years before). That's why you just don't sue for current medical bills. As mean spirited as it seems, that is how this society works (with no guaranteed healthcare, no universal healthcare). If a business can't withstand a lawsuit, then they have no business staying in business. 

And I would not be so quick to buy the notion that a big manufacturer like Specialized have poor quality products because they're mass produced, and a boutique builder are necessarily quality either. Remember what Americans use to say Japanese tonka cars? And I have higher trust in the build quality of a Japanese mass-produced motorcycle over any many "hand made" American choppers or Harley for that matter.

Whatever is the case, it does the public no good if we hide failures. All failures should be reported, along with the detail of the failure. Let the public decide what to do with the information presented to them. Any reasonable person reading this will be able to tell if this is just a freak rare failure, or a defamation of a make, or walk away inconclusive. Let the public decide. In time, the truth will come out. But as a general rule of thumb, 9 out of 10 times in life, going with a "smaller guy" does carry a higher risk.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

chauzie said:


> If a business can't withstand a lawsuit, then they have no business staying in business.
> 
> And I would not be so quick to buy the notion that a big manufacturer like Specialized have poor quality products because they're mass produced, and a boutique builder are necessarily quality either.


Chauzie,

Still kind of harsh. The internet allows that. I will say. Certainly Specialized is a top notch manufacturer but remember the Ford Pinto? Ford knew it would end up killing some people but figured the financial end of it was justified. I have been in this biz for almost 20 years and I can tell you that bike companies do this too. One famous massive one I will not name and is better now had return rates on frames higher than 5%. At one point it was 20% but the product was so cheap to produce it made financial sense just to replace the goods and still deal with the high return rate.

You are right that eventually this was bad press and since then they have reduced the rate to around 1-2%. Boutique builders should be handling the spaces in between. I don't make FS MTB because Specialized does it better but then again Specialized does not make bikes for 7 foot tall people either. I do. If you are well serviced by a big co, then that is great but do not believe they are at all infallible. They make decisions based on costs and liability not ultimate quality.


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## Wolfhound Cycles (Feb 20, 2010)

*Bust out your reading glasses bub*



chauzie said:


> More power to those people who got injured or experiencing near death and still ok with the builder.
> 
> Broken vertebrae is not something I would consider an easily forgivable thing. Things could still go wrong once it's healed (eg, old age could later affect it in ways you didn't think possible 20, 30 years before). That's why you just don't sue for current medical bills. As mean spirited as it seems, that is how this society works (with no guaranteed healthcare, no universal healthcare). If a business can't withstand a lawsuit, then they have no business staying in business.
> 
> ...


Took me 10 minutes to find these.
Pretty funny you had to use Specialized as your example. I might not even be a frame builder if it wasn't for my Stumpjumper FSR giving me a very similar situation, then warranting it with the wrong swing arm for the model. My first and last Specialized experience, tried a decent steel HT after that, and now here the hell I sit.

This kinda says it all:





http://boardreader.com/thread/Broken_Frame_Specialized_FSR_Stumpjumper_s76X515f.html

http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/specialized/1628

http://forums.bicycling.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/671104717/m/4521066566

This one is especially descriptive:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?216230-Catastrophic-rear-derailleur-hanger-failure


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## mitzikatzi (Sep 9, 2008)

Wolfhound Cycles said:


> ....SNIP!....
> 
> Don't write off small builders,* just have the sense to ask them if they are insured before sending in your deposi*t.


Yes and then "Suck It Up" and pay the extra several hundred dollars for you new custom frame.

I guess thats why some custom frames cost $1000 and others $4500.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

mitzikatzi said:


> I guess thats why some custom frames cost $1000 and others $4500.


anybody that is paying $4500 for a bike frame had a hole lot of wool pulled over their eyes.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

customfab said:


> anybody that is paying $4500 for a bike frame had a hole lot of wool pulled over their eyes.


Well, it's not like you have any of your spelling bee prize money left over.


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

edoz said:


> Well, it's not like you have any of your spelling bee prize money left over.


He's still got a future writing Craigslist ads....................


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## trboxman (Jul 7, 2010)

And yet he's still correct....misspelled word and all...


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## mitzikatzi (Sep 9, 2008)

customfab said:


> anybody that is paying $4500 for a bike frame had a hole lot of wool pulled over their eyes.


Well there is one Frame Builder who posts on these forums and makes great looking bikes. On his web site he states that $4500 is the average amount spent in his shop.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

mitzikatzi said:


> Well there is one Frame Builder who posts on these forums and makes great looking bikes. On his web site he states that $4500 is the average amount spent in his shop.


4500 for a bike is a fair amount, that much for a frame exceeds the point of diminishing returns.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

edoz said:


> Well, it's not like you have any of your spelling bee prize money left over.


why don't you follow in your dads footsteps and stick to correcting grammar on the mens room wall.

what a difference one letter makes


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

FM said:


> ...from the same blog post (different bike). How the hell does this happen? :crazy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had one of their stems fail in that exact same manner, one of the few parts I've ever had fail. I'd still buy another one of their stems though.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Ok, we're done, folks.*

If you've got a comment that will be helpful to the hobbyists/pros, please start a new thread (ie, "here's a mistake I made" or "here's how to do X").

I think we've learned all we can here. Best of luck to the fellow with the frame and to the builder.

-Walt


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