# Are we not allowed to have a thread about...



## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

the new E-bike ruling in the E-bike forum? Why do the mods keep moving the threads to the Trail Building and Advocacy forum? My thread was about trails that we're excited to ride under the new ruling and it got moved.

I'm not trying to start any drama and this isn't about advocacy or trail building, *the decision has been made.* It's about riding our E-bikes.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I agree with you, keep the ebike stuff in the ebike forum. I think that is what most people here prefer, whether they are looking to read about ebikes or not.


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

Is it an e-bike issue or a trail issue? Obviously the MODS find it to be a trail issue. Does it really matter which section it's in?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

It's an access issue and the powers that be don't want the inevitable flame war in the motorized sub-forum.


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

life behind bars said:


> It's an access issue and the powers that be don't want the inevitable flame war in the motorized sub-forum.


My thread wasn't about access. Access has been pretty clearly decided by the order(barring any lawsuits). Why not keep E-bike related conversations in the E-bike thread?

"Secretary of the Interior David Bernhardt signed an order on Thursday, Aug. 29 which will allow access of electric bikes on BLM land and in National Parks. This would effectively allow e-bikes onto any federal trail where non-motorized bicycles can ride.

"Reducing the physical demand to operate a bicycle has expanded access to recreational opportunities," Bernhardt wrote in the order. It continues, "*E-bikes shall be allowed where other types of bicycles are allowed."*


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> It's an access issue and the powers that be don't want the inevitable flame war in the motorized sub-forum.


But but but .. they are not motorized...

"Interior Secretary David Bernhardt signed the order without fanfare Thursday, classifying e-bikes as non-motorized bikes and giving agencies 14 days to adjust their rules."


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

Can we just celebrate trail access for E-bikes in the E-bike forum please? 

I first rode Slickrock trail in 1988. After probably over 70 trips to Moab I'm pumped that as I get older I will still be able to ride all of the amazing trails around there on an E-bike.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

str8line said:


> My thread wasn't about access. Access has been pretty clearly decided by the order(barring any lawsuits). Why not keep E-bike related conversations in the E-bike thread?
> 
> "Secretary of the Interior David Bernhardt signed an order on Thursday, Aug. 29 which will allow access of electric bikes on BLM land and in National Parks. This would effectively allow e-bikes onto any federal trail where non-motorized bicycles can ride.
> 
> "Reducing the physical demand to operate a bicycle has expanded access to recreational opportunities," Bernhardt wrote in the order. It continues, "*E-bikes shall be allowed where other types of bicycles are allowed."*


Nothing has been "decided" at this point so it in fact an access issue. Don't like the decision to move it? Ask for a refund.


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

Start a new thread then it will be in both.

Because what we really need is ANOTHER e-bike thread


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

str8line said:


> Can we just celebrate trail access for E-bikes in the E-bike forum please?


Yeah, "dissension shall be silenced", right?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

And now this thread has turned into an access thread, will be asking for it to be moved or deleted.


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

life behind bars said:


> And now this thread has turned into an access thread, will be asking for it to be moved or deleted.


Nooooo! Let's talk about where we're excited to ride!

I'll go first. Looking forward to linking up Navajo, Horsethief and Mag 7 in a huge old-man epic!


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

"Welcoming the change in Bar Harbor, Maine, on Friday, Gordon Goodwin, 69, said he and his wife look forward to riding the 57 miles (92 kilometers) of carriage paths that meander throughout Acadia National Park.

The paths, offering stunning views of lakes, mountains, forests and the ocean, are popular with bicyclists, but e-bikes have had to stay on the park's roads instead.

"We're stoked. We're really stoked," Goodwin said. "There's just too much traffic on the main park roads that you can't enjoy them. It'll be great to get in the park and see nature and all that stuff."

https://www.pennlive.com/nation-wor...trails-has-some-stoked-others-infuriated.html


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

Going to be seeing a lot of this:

https://www.biketours.com/wp-conten...s_mosel-saar-bike-barge-1080x600-c-center.jpg


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

str8line said:


> Trail Building and Advocacy forum


the what forum?


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

Oh it's been decided. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

str8line said:


> "Welcoming the change in Bar Harbor, Maine, on Friday, Gordon Goodwin, 69, said he and his wife look forward to riding the 57 miles (92 kilometers) of carriage paths that meander throughout Acadia National Park.
> 
> The paths, offering stunning views of lakes, mountains, forests and the ocean, are popular with bicyclists, but e-bikes have had to stay on the park's roads instead.
> 
> ...


The carriage paths in Acadia ARE roads.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

mbmb65 said:


> The carriage paths in Acadia ARE roads.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well technically, yes. But no cars.

https://acadiamagic.com/carriage-roads.htm


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> It's an access issue and the powers that be don't want the inevitable flame war in the motorized sub-forum.


War is over its a win for all the MT bike community


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

str8line said:


> the new E-bike ruling in the E-bike forum? Why do the mods keep moving the threads to the Trail Building and Advocacy forum? My thread was about trails that we're excited to ride under the new ruling and it got moved.
> 
> I'm not trying to start any drama and this isn't about advocacy or trail building, *the decision has been made.* It's about riding our E-bikes.


You must be new here. The eBike forum is for discussing eBikes and eBike related products.
The trail building and advocacy forum is for discussion of trail access. Since all the threads about the new changes to eBikes in National Parks and BLM land are about trail access, they have been moved there. The history of this particular forum has been very volatile when it comes to access issues. In order to keep the discussion in the eBike section more friendly it is best to keep the access topics in the forum where many users on this site have a better understanding of how land management works.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

We’ll keep this thread open for now! FC and I will keep a close eye to make sure there’s no abuse from the anti ebikers or bad information from ebikers. 

This policy is a huge step for ebikers in the USA! I can’t wait to see how exactly this policy gets adopted in the next 30 days. How will it affect other government agencies not on this list? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Lord knows they spent enough time and effort over the past 4 years mocking and flaming those who said that this was inevitable, now we have been proven correct and you move the threads?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

mtbbiker said:


> We'll keep this thread open for now! FC and I will keep a close eye to make sure there's no abuse from the anti ebikers or bad information from ebikers.
> 
> This policy is a huge step for ebikers in the USA! I can't wait to see how exactly this policy gets adopted in the next 30 days. How will it affect other government agencies not on this list?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for keeping this here where it won't turn into a troll job to get the thread closed.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

A friend of mine posted on FB that Canada adopted a similar policy regarding e-bikes. Very cool.


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

mtbbiker said:


> We'll keep this thread open for now! FC and I will keep a close eye to make sure there's no abuse from the anti ebikers or bad information from ebikers.
> 
> This policy is a huge step for ebikers in the USA! I can't wait to see how exactly this policy gets adopted in the next 30 days. How will it affect other government agencies not on this list?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you, it is appreciated.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> We'll keep this thread open for now! FC and I will keep a close eye to make sure there's no abuse from the anti ebikers or bad information from ebikers.
> 
> This policy is a huge step for ebikers in the USA! I can't wait to see how exactly this policy gets adopted in the next 30 days. How will it affect other government agencies not on this list?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


75 percent of the federal lands are covered by the Secretary of Interior's decision, this is from Pinkbike and may not be correct. According to https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42346.pdf The BLM manages 248 million acres alone. I believe, if the USFS is still enforcing the eBike ban on non-motorized trails, they are going to have a hard time finding a Judge who will back them up.


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

Klurejr said:


> *You must be new here*. The eBike forum is for discussing eBikes and eBike related products.
> The trail building and advocacy forum is for discussion of trail access. Since all the threads about the new changes to eBikes in National Parks and BLM land are about trail access, they have been moved there. The history of this particular forum has been very volatile when it comes to access issues. In order to keep the discussion in the eBike section more friendly it is best to keep the access topics in the forum where many users on this site have a better understanding of how land management works.


Actually you're newer here than I am. Notice I joined 1.5 years before you.


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

From Pinkbike discussion...


flag rocky-mtn-gman (Aug 30, 2019 at 14:31)
Buzz Aldrin and Rosie O’Donnell are secretly puppeteering Trump with pseudo-science and warm glasses of milk, in an effort to get more people to ride bikes. This excess in rotating bicycle wheels (and the fact that every new ebike comes with a brick of cheese and 8lbs of polish sausage) begins to create massive gyrating forces along with massive brown cumulus fart clouds which begins to excel the spinning rotation of the earth into a faster rates than ever historically seen. From here, the earth begins to feel massive heat waves, wilted flowers and excessively loud suburban mothers who have “just about had it with these shenanigans”. When suburban mom’s aren’t happy, they stop doing laundry. Laundry will pile up into unspeakably large piles of assless chaps, lip-stick stained RVCA T-shirts and skidmarked power ranger-themed chamois’. At this point, your local Homeowner’s Association will have to drop by and scoff at the disgusting mess you’ve created. In turn they will have to start building tiny houses made of Lincoln logs and leftover Thanksgiving mash potatoes to make proper screening to block the unsightly views of your dirty laundry, which will lead to them subsequently raising your monthly HOA fees. Plain and simple folks, the HOA is raising fees and there’s nothing you can do about.


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## encouragable (Dec 24, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> You must be new here. ...


Pretty condescending. This guy is a moderator? 'Life behind' too??

Methinks it is seems like an important News development for the ebike forum:
https://www.google.com/search?clien...hUKEwjmzNbKpbPkAhUMEawKHUHNCoIQ4dUDCAs&uact=5

I'm not sure why it has to be moved. But at the very least, leave an explanation and redirect to the new location. And I'm not enthused about the mods locking/deleting threads asking why things are done a certain way.

I've test ridden several emtbs and am close to making a decision. This kind of news is significant to me.


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

Klurejr said:


> Can you please post a link that backs up your claim of 75% and your claim that the USFS is violating Federal Policy?


Ironically, Pinkbike came up the the 75% number: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/us-se...or-opens-national-park-trails-to-e-bikes.html, which is clearly wrong.

According to this article: https://www.rei.com/blog/hike/your-guide-to-understanding-public-lands , public lands total 616 million acres, and BLM and NPS account for 54% of it.

As for the other thing, I wish Fig would stop posting that crap. It doesn't help the eBike cause to shut down every meaningful discussion with alternative facts. Order 3376 is just that, an order from the head of an agency to carry out an action. It's far from a law, so to say that other unrelated agencies are breaking a law is pure wishful thinking.

I'm an eMTB rider (don't even own an unassisted MTB), and I really, really hope the USFS (department of agriculture) decides to alter their earlier rule that bans eBikes so we can put this thing to bed and ride, but please don't make up facts!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

str8line said:


> Actually you're newer here than I am. Notice I joined 1.5 years before you.


It was a tongue in cheek comment about the very volatile history of the flame wars and personal attacks that resulted from Trail Access discussions being hosted in the eBike section of the forum over the last 4-5 years. Sorry if it did not come off that way.



encouragable said:


> Pretty condescending. This guy is a moderator? 'Life behind' too??


See my post above, there has been a long history of back biting and pointless arguments, falsified information, etc over the years in the eBike section. The Trail Access section of the Forum has a number of regular posters who have decades of experience working with Land Managers and understand what it takes to gain access and keep access at the Local, state and federal level. They know and understand how to read the laws and can better explain what they mean and how they will work. Having all the Trail access discussions in that forum encourage those with the experience to comment and bring about an honest and level headed discussion. If you look at the threads over there, the experienced posters chime in with direct links to and quotes of the laws and how they impact the sport of cycling and eBiking. They do this without bias and from what I have seen do not try to put a spin on the information favoring any point of view but that of how to gain and keep access. Go look at everything Boulder Pilot has posted, he is very knowledgeable in this field.

Many people search and browse MTBR looking for good solid information about eBike rights and access, it is a disservice to this site and the customers who use it if there are not checks and balances to the way information is being published.


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## encouragable (Dec 24, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> It was a tongue in cheek comment about the very volatile history of the flame wars and personal attacks that resulted from Trail Access discussions being hosted in the eBike section of the forum over the last 4-5 years. Sorry if it did not come off that way.
> 
> See my post above, there has been a long history of back biting and pointless arguments, falsified information, etc over the years in the eBike section. The Trail Access section of the Forum has a number of regular posters who have decades of experience working with Land Managers and understand what it takes to gain access and keep access at the Local, state and federal level. They know and understand how to read the laws and can better explain what they mean and how they will work. Having all the Trail access discussions in that forum encourage those with the experience to comment and bring about an honest and level headed discussion. If you look at the threads over there, the experienced posters chime in with direct links to and quotes of the laws and how they impact the sport of cycling and eBiking. They do this without bias and from what I have seen do not try to put a spin on the information favoring any point of view but that of how to gain and keep access. Go look at everything Boulder Pilot has posted, he is very knowledgeable in this field.
> 
> Many people search and browse MTBR looking for good solid information about eBike rights and access, it is a disservice to this site and the customers who use it if there are not checks and balances to the way information is being published.


Sigh. "Tongue in cheek". There's a guy around these parts named Pete who used same line all the time. For a moderator to use that is disengenous. You're losing your composure so at least admit it. And now you can't lock and delete this thread so it is gnawing at you. Again, hiding behind "this site is google searched so let's keep it factual about ebikes." Jezuuzz this is a discussion forum. Let people discuss. Stop pushing your own agenda which is the abolition of ebikes. You kind sir are an embarrassment to this site. Unless you want to fact check every post on this site, you need to stop wielding your so-called police powers.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So this is news to me, we’ve been on a road trip and didn’t have internet access.

If this rule is applied, ie local Trail/Park managers don’t fight it, what are some examples of trails that will now be open to ebikes?

Are we talking Moab?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> So this is news to me, we've been on a road trip and didn't have internet access.
> 
> If this rule is applied, ie local Trail/Park managers don't fight it, what are some examples of trails that will now be open to ebikes?
> 
> Are we talking Moab?


Just about everything on BLM land near Moab, yes. Not sure about upper reaches of TWE; i think that's all USFS land up there.

I predict a significant increase in SAR incidents in Moab soon. I hope this order is accompanied by an increase in funding for that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Already calls for banning bicycles because of e-motor bike access;

https://www.sfchronicle.com/travel/...KPfb9ztnGtpj4xWGRyi8IqaZ5Yv00TS6fjMmPt1H9hUcs


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## ruthabagah (Jun 4, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> Already calls for banning bicycles because of e-motor bike access;
> 
> https://www.sfchronicle.com/travel/...KPfb9ztnGtpj4xWGRyi8IqaZ5Yv00TS6fjMmPt1H9hUcs


hardly a call, more like an opinion.


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> Just about everything on BLM land near Moab, yes. Not sure about upper reaches of TWE; i think that's all USFS land up there.
> 
> *I predict a significant increase in SAR incidents in Moab soon. I hope this order is accompanied by an increase in funding for that. *
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Alarmist BS. Maybe they should close Moab. With the ongoing massive increase in bikers, hikers, motorcyclists, side-by-sides, I predict a significant increase in SAR. Since bikers probably lead the required assistance maybe they should just ban bikers but allow e-bikers. Would cut down on SAR.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> Already calls for banning bicycles because of e-motor bike access;
> 
> https://www.sfchronicle.com/travel/...KPfb9ztnGtpj4xWGRyi8IqaZ5Yv00TS6fjMmPt1H9hUcs


That has always been a valid concern, but then there have always been hikers and horse folks who didn't like sharing trails with bikers. When I was living in Wenatchee, WA, a local landowner donated land to the county with the condition that it be maintained as wild, ie no traffic by foot, horse, or vehicle.

I'm sure there will be a certain amount of pushback, esp where bikes are conflicting with other users, it's already the case in some places that trails are pedestrian only. That's okay, as bikers we know that our uses/impacts are different than the uses/impacts of hikers or horses or wildlife. Self awareness is important.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

encouragable said:


> Sigh. "Tongue in cheek". There's a guy around these parts named Pete who used same line all the time. For a moderator to use that is disengenous. You're losing your composure so at least admit it. And now you can't lock and delete this thread so it is gnawing at you. Again, hiding behind "this site is google searched so let's keep it factual about ebikes." Jezuuzz this is a discussion forum. Let people discuss. Stop pushing your own agenda which is the abolition of ebikes. You kind sir are an embarrassment to this site. Unless you want to fact check every post on this site, you need to stop wielding your so-called police powers.


You know nothing about me. I am not anti-eBike whatsoever, in fact I have had some of the extreme Anti-eBike members call me Pro-eBike for my balanced views. I have ridden eBikes and ride with guys who own them, I have no problem with Class 1 eBikes being allowed on just about every single trail where Pedal Bikes are allowed. I have no secret agenda to abolish eBikes.

If you don't think propagating mis-information is a problem, then I am not sure how to help you. The people who own this site are concerned with false information being tied to the MTBR name. You are free to discuss what you want and have an opinion either for or against eBike use, but make sure you back up your statements with links to laws or trusted sources to back up what you are saying when it comes to actual legalities of accessing trails.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> So this is news to me, we've been on a road trip and didn't have internet access.
> 
> If this rule is applied, ie local Trail/Park managers don't fight it, what are some examples of trails that will now be open to ebikes?
> 
> Are we talking Moab?


Yeah, I have never been to Moab, but my understanding of the trails there is this would be a good thing for eBiking in Moab since before this all the trails that eBikers were allowed to ride also were for motorcycles and probably not as good on a eBike as they are on a motorcycle.

From what I can tell this Order is going to have a greater effect on BLM land than it will in National Parks.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

str8line said:


> Alarmist BS. Maybe they should close Moab. With the ongoing massive increase in bikers, hikers, motorcyclists, side-by-sides, I predict a significant increase in SAR. Since bikers probably lead the required assistance maybe they should just ban bikers but allow e-bikers. Would cut down on SAR.


How does one "close" a city, exactly?

It's not alarmist to suggest that an overweight, ill or otherwise less than fully able person is going to be less capable of performing self extraction in a compromised situation than an able bodied peer. It is not alarmist to suggest that people will put themselves further afield than their physical abilities would allow using an eBike when compared to their own natural physical abilities.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Ok, just getting here. Let's keep it civil folks. Klurejr is an unpaid moderator volunteer for the past few years doing a tough job so let's put the pitch forks down. On this forum, Mtbbiker and I are the moderators and will guide it.

This is a tough one. We decided to focus this forum on product discussions a few months ago because it was a constant site of endless flame wars between the two camps. Trail discussions were moved to the trail access forums to allow productive discussions to exist here.

But obviously this new National Level ruling is big news and the folks here want to know about and discuss here. Tough one but chime if you think these threads should be moved or not.

We'll keep this thread open as it's questioning/clarifying why trail threads are moved. But keep it civil and respectful of course.

fc


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> How does one "close" a city, exactly?
> 
> It's not alarmist to suggest that an overweight, ill or otherwise less than fully able person is going to be less capable of performing self extraction in a compromised situation than an able bodied peer. It is not alarmist to suggest that people will put themselves further afield than their physical abilities would allow using an eBike when compared to their own natural physical abilities.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because e-biking is for "overweight, ill or less than able-bodied people". LOL

A counter argument is that an e-bike would save energy, thus being safer on a given loop.


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

fc said:


> Ok, just getting here. Let's keep it civil folks. Klurejr is an unpaid moderator volunteer for the past few years doing a tough job so let's put the pitch forks down. On this forum, Mtbbiker and I are the moderators and will guide it.
> 
> This is a tough one. We decided to focus this forum on product discussions a few months ago because it was a constant site of endless flame wars between the two camps. Trail discussions were moved to the trail access forums to allow productive discussions to exist here.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your explanation. I think you'll find if you read these threads that Klurejr and Life Behind Bars engage in clear conduct unbefitting a moderator. Arguing with people, calling them names and speaking in condescending tones shouldn't happen with a moderator, IMO. Respectful conversation should begin with a moderator not end with one.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

My only issue is when volunteer moderators try to use their authority to control the narrative by passing out time outs, bans, thread closures, thread Jacks, and post deletion all because a subject is over their head:

Klurejr said:
03-13-2019
figofspee - please educate yourself on the land management process before you post again. Anything further along these lines from you will be consider trolling and you will get a 7 day time out.
https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/where-ride-ebikes-usa-major-issues-1099253.html

https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/poaching-penalties-1048987.html


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

figofspee said:


> My only issue is when volunteer moderators try to use their authority to control the narrative by passing out time outs, bans, thread closures, thread Jacks, and post deletion all because a subject is over their head:
> 
> Klurejr said:
> 03-13-2019
> ...


I like how the head boss replies with an answer directly to the original question with a considerate and straightforward answer but you still have to point out how you have been hassled by the moderator for doing what he has been asked to do.

If you have issue with moderating PM FC and tell him your concerns. This looks petty.


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> Already calls for banning bicycles because of e-motor bike access;
> 
> https://www.sfchronicle.com/travel/...KPfb9ztnGtpj4xWGRyi8IqaZ5Yv00TS6fjMmPt1H9hUcs


Now we can work together instead of against each other, right? A house divided will fall. Don't you think that eMTB riders are just as interested in keeping access as unassisted MTB riders? If things ever start moving in that direction where trails are closed, you will have a lot more people on the bike side of things to fight against such efforts.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

rockcrusher said:


> I like how the head boss replies with an answer directly to the original question with a considerate and straightforward answer but you still have to point out how you have been hassled by the moderator for doing what he has been asked to do.
> 
> If you have issue with moderating PM FC and tell him your concerns. This looks petty.


You might want to read the linked threads Administrator Rockcrusher, as they have nothing to do with moving threads.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

figofspee said:


> You might want to read the linked threads Administrator Rockcrusher, as they have nothing to do with moving threads.


Okay then.


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

notb said:


> Now we can work together instead of against each other, right? A house divided will fall. Don't you think that eMTB riders are just as interested in keeping access as unassisted MTB riders? If things ever start moving in that direction where trails are closed, you will have a lot more people on the bike side of things to fight against such efforts.


Yes! I've been a mountain biker for over 32 years and an ebiker for 6 months. Now I'm both. Ebikers are mountain bikers!


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> How does one "close" a city, exactly?
> 
> It's not alarmist to suggest that an overweight, ill or otherwise less than fully able person is going to be less capable of performing self extraction in a compromised situation than an able bodied peer. It is not alarmist to suggest that people will put themselves further afield than their physical abilities would allow using an eBike when compared to their own natural physical abilities.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What you're implying is that physically challenged individuals are mentally challenged too, that is will place themselves in situations they can't extract themselves from. I've been involved in several "extractions" of bicyclists and motorcyclists and have heard about many more; none involved physically challenged individuals.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Let's get this Post back on course. I really do not like editing/deleting threads, but we need to be more respectful of each others opinions. 

The facts are, this is a huge for all cyclists! As others have pointed out, most here have both: an ebike and a bike. As I've said before we are all cyclist/ecyclist wanting to enjoy the outdoors. Together we are a huge group and only growing. We as cyclist/ecyclist have a common goal of making sure we don't lose access and in the process hopefully gain more access. 

Until the end of the month, pretty much everything that is going to be said will be speculation at best. Let's try to keep this speculation realistic if possible. With the BLM order alone, there's a lot of land opening up soon! Let's be excited, but not get to far ahead of ourselves! Thanks Guys!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> You know nothing about me. I am not anti-eBike whatsoever, in fact I have had some of the extreme Anti-eBike members call me Pro-eBike for my balanced views. I have ridden eBikes and ride with guys who own them, I have no problem with Class 1 eBikes being allowed on just about every single trail where Pedal Bikes are allowed. I have no secret agenda to abolish eBikes.
> 
> If you don't think propagating mis-information is a problem, then I am not sure how to help you. The people who own this site are concerned with false information being tied to the MTBR name. You are free to discuss what you want and have an opinion either for or against eBike use, but make sure you back up your statements with links to laws or trusted sources to back up what you are saying when it comes to actual legalities of accessing trails.


I know you have attacked me and called me names on this worthless form you and the mostly same ole e haters,The MTBR hate that the mods spew on here against any kind of e bike use even for handicap riders is a black eye on the Mt bike community. I fought and won access for handicap E riders at my Mt bike park and supported positive use for e bikes by supporting E MTB Association ,How much longer will MTBR let these few super mods (lol) allow them to spew hate at us? . The ruling proves we dont deserve the nasty hate and name calling that MTBR has allowed these Mods to direct at the E bike riders .


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

str8line said:


> Because e-biking is for "overweight, ill or less than able-bodied people". LOL
> 
> A counter argument is that an e-bike would save energy, thus being safer on a given loop.


"Reducing the physical demand to operate a bicycle has expanded access to recreational opportunities, particularly to those with limitations stemming from age, illness, disability or fitness...".

Care to guess what memo that is from?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fos'l said:


> What you're implying is that physically challenged individuals are mentally challenged too, that is will place themselves in situations they can't extract themselves from. I've been involved in several "extractions" of bicyclists and motorcyclists and have heard about many more; none involved physically challenged individuals.


I didn't say anything of the sort. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.

However, if two people of the same mental ability suffer a catastrophic bike failure 30 miles from safety, who do you think is more likely to make it home alive?

A) A person without a physical disability and the fitness required to complete a 60 mile loop,

Or

B) A person with "limitations stemming from age, illness, disability or fitness".

I know which one I'd choose. Are you trying to tell me that the limitations that apparently precipitated this order are NOT, in fact, limitations, and that the Sec. of Interior has it all wrong?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> "Reducing the physical demand to operate a bicycle has expanded access to recreational opportunities, particularly to those with limitations stemming from age, illness, disability or fitness...".
> 
> Care to guess what memo that is from?


I mean if we're just going to blindly believe everything we read that supports our given position the recent study that claims e-bikes on average ride longer rides and have overall better fitness is quite the doozy.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Are you suggesting that we shouldn't take the Honorable Secretary of the Interior at his word, and that there isn't a group of limitations preventing people from riding normal bicycles?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you done playing with fallacies and back to debating points that have actual merits? You know, like the fact that e-bikers have been shown to be more fit when compared to the cycling population at large.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Are you done playing with fallacies and back to debating points that have actual merits? You know, like the fact that e-bikers have been shown to be more fit when compared to the cycling population at large.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


We rent ebikes all day long, and there is usually one thing in common among them...old and fat. And we are in one of the skinniest towns in the country.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Are you done playing with fallacies and back to debating points that have actual merits? You know, like the fact that e-bikers have been shown to be more fit when compared to the cycling population at large.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Huh. And here I thought that eBikers had a significantly higher BMI, per that study. They actually had higher BMI than both cyclists AND non-cyclists. And, yes, I'm aware of some of the shortcomings of BMI.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S259019821930017X

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> I didn't say anything of the sort. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.
> 
> However, if two people of the same mental ability suffer a catastrophic bike failure 30 miles from safety, who do you think is more likely to make it home alive?
> 
> ...


You know e riders know what AHs there battery is and a good ideal how many miles they can go we even have a gauge most bikes can do 15 to 25 but it depends your not gonna be doing 60 miles either way . I have broken down I just pushed it two miles to the trail head got a ride with the normal friendly Mt biker group (So not a MTBR member) took me back to my van, So your doing 60mi loops in the middle of nowhere?


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

mtbbiker said:


> Let's get this Post back on course. I really do not like editing/deleting threads, but we need to be more respectful of each others opinions.
> 
> The facts are, this is a huge for all cyclists! As others have pointed out, most here have both: an ebike and a bike. As I've said before we are all cyclist/ecyclist wanting to enjoy the outdoors. Together we are a huge group and only growing. We as cyclist/ecyclist have a common goal of making sure we don't lose access and in the process hopefully gain more access.
> 
> Until the end of the month, pretty much everything that is going to be said will be speculation at best. Let's try to keep this speculation realistic if possible. With the BLM order alone, there's a lot of land opening up soon! Let's be excited, but not get to far ahead of ourselves! Thanks Guys!


Thank you and well said.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Huh. And here I thought that eBikers had a significantly higher BMI, per that study. They actually had higher BMI than both cyclists AND non-cyclists. And, yes, I'm aware of some of the shortcomings of BMI.
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S259019821930017X
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They were also on average 7 years older and performing more physical activity per week. Considering the study did not take diet into account and your understanding of the limitations of BMI I think we can agree that BMI being higher by a single point can be explained away in several ways that have nothing to do with it meaning worse physical shape.

All that to say you can play whataboutism and hyperbole with anything. I can easily find an e-biker whose fitness is leaps and bounds above anything your's, or mine, approaches. However, just like your statement, when reverted to the norm those individuals fall outside the bounds of normal.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## str8line (Apr 1, 2005)

rideit said:


> We rent ebikes all day long, and there is usually one thing in common among them...old and fat. And we are in one of the skinniest towns in the country.


We should celebrate old and fat people on bicycles, shouldn't we?


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Yes, but they certainly aren’t thinner than the regular Mt. Bike customers, that’s what I am getting at. I freaking love getting the others on the ebikes (townies), makes their day.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

This is really the stupidest forum on MTBR 🙄


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

rideit said:


> Yes, but they certainly aren't thinner than the regular Mt. Bike customers, that's what I am getting at. I freaking love getting the others on the ebikes (townies), makes their day.


Thinness ≠ fitness

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rider95 said:


> I know you have attacked me and called me names on this worthless form you and the mostly same ole e haters,The MTBR hate that the mods spew on here against any kind of e bike use even for handicap riders is a black eye on the Mt bike community. I fought and won access for handicap E riders at my Mt bike park and supported positive use for e bikes by supporting E MTB Association ,How much longer will MTBR let these few super mods (lol) allow them to spew hate at us? . The ruling proves we dont deserve the nasty hate and name calling that MTBR has allowed these Mods to direct at the E bike riders .


You are going to have to find and link the posts where you claim I have done this. I am quite certain I have never called you names or made a personal attack against you. I am well aware you have a disability and ride your eBike with an ADA card, you have mentioned it many times in your posts over the years. I have no issues with you doing that, but I am not a fan of you making false accusations about me. Either prove I have done something to you personally, or stop making baseless accusations against me.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

rideit said:


> We rent ebikes all day long, and there is usually one thing in common among them...old and fat. And we are in one of the skinniest towns in the country.


 Yeah, the old but fit ebike riders don't rent, they own! I would expect a tourist town getting lots of, let's call them casual riders, less fit people using them. They can probably also come up with the scratch to pay for a S&R if needed.

I fly off airport, a lot, I land on mountain tops etc., besides ride on my own in remote areas, and to think that I shouldn't because somehow that may be a problem for any first responders isn't even on my radar. As one flying buddy said once when the subject came up "f*ck 'em, that's what they get paid for." And he's a retired judge. And the ones that are volunteer, well that's what they volunteered for. If I ever need a chopper ride out, I'll pay for it, simple. if it's a volunteer outfit, they'll get a donation.

The really out of shape people probably go to the ATV rental shop!


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> This is really the stupidest forum on MTBR 


I hope everyone has read this new one:

https://reviews.mtbr.com/understanding-e-bikes-in-downieville-and-the-lost-sierra

I could not have put it better myself!!!

Really cool that the rangers and forest supervisors in CA tested e-bikes themselves offroad for the last few months and came to the consensus that they are an overwhemingly positive influence on the land that they manage. Congrats to them for being open minded and not being influenced by outside 'motorized' bias.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

My local newspaper ran a article today that they picked up somewhere about the easing of the restrictions, mostly positive in nature. Except for one hiker who was representing some national hiking group, who was quoted as saying "if you're hiking a trail and one of those things comes around a curve at 20 MPH, it won't be pretty," or words to that effect. Some horse people were also quoted, predicting carnage on the trail, sigh.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

portnuefpeddler said:


> My local newspaper ran a article today that they picked up somewhere about the easing of the restrictions, mostly positive in nature. Except for one hiker who was representing some national hiking group, who was quoted as saying "if you're hiking a trail and one of those things comes around a curve at 20 MPH, it won't be pretty," or words to that effect. Some horse people were also quoted, predicting carnage on the trail, sigh.


 Horse people are hilarious aren't they? Predicting carnage from the introduction of ebikes while riding "vehicles " that they can only make suggestions to and not fully control. When was the last time a bicycle, e or otherwise, ran amok because it was startled?


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## ULEWZ (Dec 10, 2017)

WoodlandHills said:


> When was the last time a bicycle, e or otherwise, ran amok because it was startled?


Or lifted up it's back end and shat on the trail?


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

richj8990 said:


> I hope everyone has read this new one:
> 
> https://reviews.mtbr.com/understanding-e-bikes-in-downieville-and-the-lost-sierra
> 
> ...


Because almost all of the trails surrounding Downieville date back to the Gold Rush, virtually every trail is OHV legal and opened to both motorized and non-motorized use. This OHV-legal status is critically important to SBTS, as we apply for California OHV grants to keep the SBTS Professional Trail Crew employed year-round.

This is the main reason, most of these trails are moto legal and they need the green sticker money to get any thing done. I just talked to a guy at Mt Hough that works with SBTS and he said the same thing.

The trails up there are perfect for e-bikes, that is where I would head if I had one.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Because almost all of the trails surrounding Downieville date back to the Gold Rush, virtually every trail is OHV legal and opened to both motorized and non-motorized use. This OHV-legal status is critically important to SBTS, as we apply for California OHV grants to keep the SBTS Professional Trail Crew employed year-round.
> 
> This is the main reason, most of these trails are moto legal and they need the green sticker money to get any thing done. I just talked to a guy at Mt Hough that works with SBTS and he said the same thing.
> 
> The trails up there are perfect for e-bikes, that is where I would head if I had one.


Get out of here with your context!


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Because almost all of the trails surrounding Downieville date back to the Gold Rush, virtually every trail is OHV legal and opened to both motorized and non-motorized use. This OHV-legal status is critically important to SBTS, as we apply for California OHV grants to keep the SBTS Professional Trail Crew employed year-round.
> 
> This is the main reason, most of these trails are moto legal and they need the green sticker money to get any thing done. I just talked to a guy at Mt Hough that works with SBTS and he said the same thing.
> 
> The trails up there are perfect for e-bikes, that is where I would head if I had one.


You just love to read only what you want to read and the rest just goes over your head. These are the decision makers in the Tahoe area who actually rode ebikes:
John Groom (Trail Program Manager, Truckee Ranger District)
Garrett Villanueva (Program Leader, Regional Trail and Travel Management)
Jonathan Fisher (District Ranger, Truckee Ranger District)
Eli Ilano (Forest Supervisor, Tahoe National Forest)
Jen Eberlien (Deputy Director, Public Services Region 5)
Temoc Rios (Staff Officer, Tahoe National Forest)
Jim Bacon (Director, Public Services Region 5)
Elizabeth Berger (Deputy Forest Supervisor, Tahoe National Forest)
Greg Williams (Executive Director, Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship)

Thanks god they road ebikes around areas in the Downieville that are legal so that they can definitely see class 1 ebikes are just that, low impact trail users with virtually similar impact mountain bikes have. With this actual usage of ebikes by officials, they opened The Tahoe National Forest more than 200 miles of non-motorized trail to Class 1 e-bike use including favorites like Hole in the Ground, Emigrant, Sawtooth, Bullards Bar and North Yuba Trail in Downieville. Thank goodness not everyone is as closed minded as some people are on MTBR.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

mtbbiker said:


> You just love to read only what you want to read and the rest just goes over your head. These are the decision makers in the Tahoe area who actually rode ebikes:
> John Groom (Trail Program Manager, Truckee Ranger District)
> Garrett Villanueva (Program Leader, Regional Trail and Travel Management)
> Jonathan Fisher (District Ranger, Truckee Ranger District)
> ...


No, it was you that let his entire post go over your head.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

mtbbiker said:


> You just love to read only what you want to read and the rest just goes over your head. These are the decision makers in the Tahoe area who actually rode ebikes:
> John Groom (Trail Program Manager, Truckee Ranger District)
> Garrett Villanueva (Program Leader, Regional Trail and Travel Management)
> Jonathan Fisher (District Ranger, Truckee Ranger District)
> ...


I think you have SFGiantsfan Derangement Syndrome. I am a huge dick about e-bikes where I ride the most, Marin.

The trails in the Lost Sierra they are talking about are world class mountain bike trails that I think e-bikes would be amazing at. They are made by mountain bikers that almost all ride moto too, they are great for all.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

this thread is getting weird.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I think you have SFGiantsfan Derangement Syndrome. I am a huge dick about e-bikes where I ride the most, Marin.
> 
> The trails in the Lost Sierra they are talking about are world class mountain bike trails that I think e-bikes would be amazing at. They are made by mountain bikers that almost all ride moto too, they are great for all.


Maybe

I've been lucky enough to have ridden there at least 3 times! Epic fun for sure!

One of my favorite road trips was: Downieville, Tahoe, Reno and Mammoth!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StreamRider (Jun 18, 2010)

Thanks for leaving this thread in the ebike forum! 

I don't read the trail building forum so this is news that I would have missed otherwise. I don't own an ebike but I borrowed a Motobecane for a week and really enjoyed it. Got a great workout with reduced knee pain. BTW, I'm a skinny dude in good shape that has put many thousands of miles on my stumpjumper. But I'm aging, my joints aren't what they used to be, and the eboost is a welcome addition to mtn bike tech for this rider.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

str8line said:


> We should celebrate old and fat people on bicycles, shouldn't we?


I think that's a no-brainer, of COURSE we should. BUT:are they using ebikes to stay obese and weaken their muscles (including the cardio)? I think there is a case for mis-use of an e-bike.

I come to this forum not because I HATE ebikes, I come here to educate myself as what is on e-bikers minds. I may never own an e-bike, but I like to be familiar with what/who is coming up behind me on the trails. Bikes are bikes, and class I e-bikes are close enough for me.
-Ray.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Radium said:


> I think that's a no-brainer, of COURSE we should. BUT:are they using ebikes to stay obese and weaken their muscles (including the cardio)? I think there is a case for mis-use of an e-bike.
> 
> I come to this forum not because I HATE ebikes, I come here to educate myself as what is on e-bikers minds. I may never own an e-bike, but I like to be familiar with what/who is coming up behind me on the trails. Bikes are bikes, and class I e-bikes are close enough for me.
> -Ray.


It's way better workout than staying home sitting on the couch and eating! 
If you get a chance, try to demo an ebike and force yourself to stay in the lower power modes. You'll see quickly, the cardio part of riding is still there! And I'm sure you'll also notice the big grin on your face as well!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Yeah but the center of the universe is the USA, everyone else does not count.
EH

ps I am Canadian, but I have been to countries with no such ebike laws of any kind.

However since Canada's population is the same population size as California, its all the same. Not like authority knows anything on the side of the road when it comes to ebikes. Same is said for authority knows anything when on the trail, power wise.



str8line said:


> A friend of mine posted on FB that Canada adopted a similar policy regarding e-bikes. Very cool.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

matt4x4 said:


> Yeah but the center of the universe is the USA, everyone else does not count.
> EH
> 
> ps I am Canadian, but I have been to countries with no such ebike laws of any kind.
> ...


Tis' very true, kinda like "white privilege", Americans have a hard time seeing themselves as anything but the center of the universe.

I don't imagine most American's have seen maps of the world made for other countries, so I imagine they would be confused and suprised to see a map from Africa or Asia with the United States placed on the periphery


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

We're heading to Outerbike Moab in early October, anyone know if the access restrictions will have been updated by then?


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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

matt4x4 said:


> Yeah but the center of the universe is the USA, everyone else does not count.
> EH
> 
> ps I am Canadian, but I have been to countries with no such ebike laws of any kind.
> ...


I will just pop in here and mentioned that the North Shore people in BC actually banned ebikes from some trails because too many people were getting too deep into the trails for their comfort, here is the article: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-parks-ebike-policy-1.5262734


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

richardjohnson said:


> I will just pop in here and mentioned that the North Shore people in BC actually banned ebikes from some trails because too many people were getting too deep into the trails for their comfort, here is the article: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-parks-ebike-policy-1.5262734


I read the article and maybe I missed it, but they are only banning Class 2 & 3. Class 1 is still good.


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## Nash04 (Dec 24, 2012)

richardjohnson said:


> I will just pop in here and mentioned that the North Shore people in BC actually banned ebikes from some trails because too many people were getting too deep into the trails for their comfort, here is the article: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-parks-ebike-policy-1.5262734


The policy says that those with Class 1 e-bikes can ride on any B.C. Parks trail where mountain bikes or other cycling is already allowed, but those with Class 2 and 3 e-bikes can only ride on trails and roads designated for motorized vehicles.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

richardjohnson said:


> I will just pop in here and mentioned that the North Shore people in BC actually banned ebikes from some trails because too many people were getting too deep into the trails for their comfort, here is the article: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-parks-ebike-policy-1.5262734


That's dumb, I can ride far further "into the deep" on a non ebike, days and days even, same with on foot. Ebikes are recharge limited, can't recharge, you can't ride.


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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> That's dumb, I can ride far further "into the deep" on a non ebike, days and days even, same with on foot. Ebikes are recharge limited, can't recharge, you can't ride.


maybe it is the case that more people are going in vs. people can go in, ebikes opening up different options for riders. Perhaps mountain bikers for the majority of these trails have decided they aren't worth it and have stuck to the north shore trails of more extreme content but the new ebike purchasers are looking for trails they can ride and are getting out there, where cyclists in general have decided not to go. A case of new riders looking for new terrain.

So: not that you can't ride to it on a bike but you don't want to because there are better trails. I don't think the average ebiker would use their ebike on most north shore trails but these look like more XC style trails they are referencing. I mean the North Shore trails are built predominately on previously logged trails, and relatively close to industry and society but there is bound to be other areas where trails are more secluded and more natural.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> We're heading to Outerbike Moab in early October, anyone know if the access restrictions will have been updated by then?


In theory local BLM units have until 9/27 to come up with their policies, but I'm sure there are heads spinning in Moab trying to figure out how to ban ebikes on BLM. The trails group, Trail Mix, is actually part of the Grand County government now. They'll probably try to assert that they are a Sovereign Nation just to keep ebikes off of Mag 7.

Check out this article (published prior to "The Order"):

https://the-journal.com/articles/149115

Interestingly, there is a BLM meeting in Dolores to discuss ebikes on BLM in SW Colorado. Wednesday, 9/25, two days before the deadline.

https://www.durangotelegraph.com/news/top-stories/blm-advisory-council-to-discuss-e-bikes/


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Nurse Ben said:


> We're heading to Outerbike Moab in early October, anyone know if the access restrictions will have been updated by then?


I haven't heard about an update from a particular BLM office, but I have read an interview with a BLM agent who said that the day order 3376 came out was the last day that they could treat eBikes as motor vehicles. The gist is that they cannot do anything about eBike usage until a new rule is in place that singles out eBikes as a distinct usage.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> That's dumb, I can ride far further "into the deep" on a non ebike, days and days even, same with on foot. Ebikes are recharge limited, can't recharge, you can't ride.


They got that covered:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=66297


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Awesome. Now I can listen to generators from e-bike packers too, not just RV'ers.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Oh joy. So much for the simplicity of a bike. Probably best to just stay close to the grid. 


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

watermonkey said:


> Awesome. Now I can listen to generators from e-bike packers too, not just RV'ers.


 Not to worry, it won't happen. If you do actually camp somewhere and are bothered by a genset running solely to recharge an ebike, be sure to let us know, otherwise don't make an issue about a non existent matter, or it sounds like you are trolling. Speaking for myself, I recharge off my plug in Prius's traction battery, while driving or parked. No noise, and much more efficient.

On another subject, I saw horseback riders today on a trail posted, by the BLM, "WALK IN TRAFFIC ONLY", and yes, the horses were walking..... I was flying, not on my bike BTW when I saw them. A bit confusing, no cantering or galloping allowed I guess.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

chazpat said:


> They got that covered:
> 
> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=66297


That was a dumb conversation, seriously, generators to power your ebike on a multi day trip.

The OP wants to set a "world record",WTF!!

Then the conversation led to talking hybrid bikes and all kinds of nonsense.

Seriously, people have been touring the world without motors for a long time, so I'm pretty sure you don't need a motor in order to tour or access the "way back".

But yeah, whatever, the ebike world constantly jumps the shark, so yeah, lets take a portable generator in a trailer behind our heavy ebike, that sounds so fun.


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## rancher52 (Aug 16, 2019)

Nobodys Opinionated in this Group, Lol ,

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Not to worry, it won't happen. If you do actually camp somewhere and are bothered by a genset running solely to recharge an ebike, be sure to let us know


Have you been camping in Moab? Do you realize how many people camp out there solely to ride mountain bike trails? A crap ton, that's how many. Now, open those trails to ebikes, and where are those campers going to charge their ebikes between rides? Solar ain't gonna cut it.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

watermonkey said:


> Have you been camping in Moab? Do you realize how many people camp out there solely to ride mountain bike trails? A crap ton, that's how many. Now, open those trails to ebikes, and where are those campers going to charge their ebikes between rides? Solar ain't gonna cut it.


Why won't solar cut it? Get a portable 500WH or larger charging station, plus 100 watt solar panel and you should be good to go.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> Why won't solar cut it? Get a portable 500WH or larger charging station, plus 100 watt solar panel and you should be good to go.


Given the standard losses of solar panels, wiring, the necessary inverter, and a charger, it would take at least 10 hours of full sunlight to charge an ebike battery that is at 20% to start.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

watermonkey said:


> Have you been camping in Moab? Do you realize how many people camp out there solely to ride mountain bike trails? A crap ton, that's how many. Now, open those trails to ebikes, and where are those campers going to charge their ebikes between rides? Solar ain't gonna cut it.


It ain't rocket science. 99.9% of people camping in Moab get there in a vehicle. A 500W+ continuous Pure Sine Wave 12VDC->120V AC inverter is about $160. Hook it to your car battery. Start the car every 90 minutes and let it idle for 15 minutes to keep the car battery from draining.

Voila!

Just to be safe, carry one of those little battery jumpstart boxes in case you run down your battery. Or, just don't be dumb.

https://invertersrus.com/product/aims-pwri60012s/

https://www.amazon.com/Starter-Trek.../dp/B07DPCHQMQ/ref=sxin_0_osp129-eae788f1_cov


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Given the standard losses of solar panels, wiring, the necessary inverter, and a charger, it would take at least 10 hours of full sunlight to charge an ebike battery that is at 20% to start.


That's why I said make sure to get a portable 500wh or larger charging station to charge up the ebike and the 100 watt solar panel to charge up the portable charging station. Done! BTW, these portable charging stations can take a charge by: car, 110ac outlet and solar polar.


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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

mtbbiker said:


> That's why I said make sure to get a portable 500wh or larger charging station to charge up the ebike and the 100 watt solar panel to charge up the portable charging station. Done! BTW, these portable charging stations can take a charge by: car, 110ac outlet and solar polar.


I like the idea that a person needs a $500 power source to charge their extra expensive bike and then a solar charger to charge the power source so they can ride their bike with less effort and over more trails over time. Good ROI there i think. What they need to do is make a way you could power a generator with your legs so you can charge your bike when it isn't sunny or your power source is out.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

richardjohnson said:


> I like the idea that a person needs a $500 power source to charge their extra expensive bike and then a solar charger to charge the power source so they can ride their bike with less effort and over more trails over time. Good ROI there i think. What they need to do is make a way you could power a generator with your legs so you can charge your bike when it isn't sunny or your power source is out.


This is only when camping off the grid, but yeah perpetual regeneration would be cool, maybe one day the technology will exist!


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

mtbbiker said:


> This is only when camping off the grid, but yeah perpetual regeneration would be cool, maybe one day the technology will exist!


At first read that last part sounded impossible but putting some thought into it it is feasible. Might not use the word perpetual but could be achieved.

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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

tuckerjt07 said:


> At first read that last part sounded impossible but putting some thought into it it is feasible. Might not use the word perpetual but could be achieved.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


A human electric hybrid, similar to a prius. However you would probably have to use the brakes when descending to gain enough input to recharge substantially and regenerative braking in notoriously bad at feel, but considering you brake many many times per ride, it could give you a substantial boost. Another great option could be using a capacitor to capture energy from braking and could be used like the DRS system in FI, leaving the battery for when constant loads are required. Though not sure how much I would want a substantial electric charge attached to a conductive system that snugs by gentleman region.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

richardjohnson said:


> A human electric hybrid, similar to a prius. However you would probably have to use the brakes when descending to gain enough input to recharge substantially and regenerative braking in notoriously bad at feel, but considering you brake many many times per ride, it could give you a substantial boost. Another great option could be using a capacitor to capture energy from braking and could be used like the DRS system in FI, leaving the battery for when constant loads are required. Though not sure how much I would want a substantial electric charge attached to a conductive system that snugs by gentleman region.


Regenerative braking would be too complex and heavy. You could simply recharge by having a selective resistance mode that could be engaged while riding on flats or downs. It would create more drag but would allow one to actively charge while moving.

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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

richardjohnson said:


> A human electric hybrid, similar to a prius. However you would probably have to use the brakes when descending to gain enough input to recharge substantially and regenerative braking in notoriously bad at feel, but considering you brake many many times per ride, it could give you a substantial boost. Another great option could be using a capacitor to capture energy from braking and could be used like the DRS system in FI, leaving the battery for when constant loads are required. Though not sure how much I would want a substantial electric charge attached to a conductive system that snugs by gentleman region.


All the hybrids and full electric cars use these systems and they still need gas or a charge. But every few years the technology does get better and range increases a little or they just put a bigger battery in it.


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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

mtbbiker said:


> All the hybrids and full electric cars use these systems and they still need gas or a charge. But every few years the technology does get better and range increases a little or they just put a bigger battery in it.


I think the use of bicycle though is dissimilar to car hybrids though? Presumably you would use the boost to get to the top of a climb, then descend with some regenerative capacity recharging your battery. It would be less fast than non-e-descending but it would allow reloading of your battery, no?

I mean on bikes you ride up the hill then recover some on the descent so you can ride longer, this is similar I would guess. Certainly better than buying more stuff so you can ride your bike longer, at least IMO.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

richardjohnson said:


> I think the use of bicycle though is dissimilar to car hybrids though? Presumably you would use the boost to get to the top of a climb, then descend with some regenerative capacity recharging your battery. It would be less fast than non-e-descending but it would allow reloading of your battery, no?
> 
> I mean on bikes you ride up the hill then recover some on the descent so you can ride longer, this is similar I would guess. Certainly better than buying more stuff so you can ride your bike longer, at least IMO.


Me personally, I don't use boost often and like tucker said, the technology is just to big and clunky for ebike application. You'd have to add another motor to the hub, another control unit, I assume at least another 5lbs or more. Is it worth it? No, not at this time. Maybe in the future, if the tech gets better.

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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

honkinunit said:


> It ain't rocket science. 99.9% of people camping in Moab get there in a vehicle. A 500W+ continuous Pure Sine Wave 12VDC->120V AC inverter is about $160. Hook it to your car battery. Start the car every 90 minutes and let it idle for 15 minutes to keep the car battery from draining.
> 
> Voila!
> 
> ...


 Thanks for saving me having to type that.

A charging system can be as easy as that, or maybe a bit more extras, like a separate deep cycle battery that charges once the vehicle battery is topped off, and an isolater that, well, isolates the deep cycle batt from the cars systems so no matter what you don't have a dead car battery. Now you also have a way to grind coffee or run other misc. small electrical loads, basic off the grid stuff when on the road. You can also do what I did for my small plane, I had a voltage converter custom made, for less then $250.00, then directly up's the planes voltage (12) to a max of 58.5 (52 volt battery), with an auto high and low voltage cutoff. Running a generator just to charge a bike battery is a chumps game, so many other more benign ways to do it!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Some of you guys have a way different definition of camping than I do.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Some of you guys have a way different definition of camping than I do.


Our definition of bicycling is different too.

Times change. My last backpacking trip was a week off-trail at high altitude with my wife decades ago; it wasn't great for her because she got morning sickness. Now we camp in a little A-Liner trailer or just stay at a cabin.

I didn't even bring my bike last time we went to Arizona's high country, but if the USFS opens up a few trails I'll have another reason to use my Honda generator besides charging my camper's battery every few days.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

hikerdave said:


> Our definition of bicycling is different too.
> 
> Times change. My last backpacking trip was a week off-trail at high altitude with my wife decades ago; it wasn't great for her because she got morning sickness. Now we camp in a little A-Liner trailer or just stay at a cabin.
> 
> I didn't even bring my bike last time we went to Arizona's high country, but if the USFS opens up a few trails I'll have another reason to use my Honda generator besides charging my camper's battery every few days.


 On a side note, when you get done building that Santa Cruz beast, post a photo!


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

richardjohnson said:


> I like the idea that a person needs a $500 power source to charge their extra expensive bike and then a solar charger to charge the power source so they can ride their bike with less effort and over more trails over time. Good ROI there i think. What they need to do is make a way you could power a generator with your legs so you can charge your bike when it isn't sunny or your power source is out.


 If they ever get serious about ebike racing then they should start with flat batteries and have to charge them up on a stationary bike with a wheel driven generator.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

watermonkey said:


> Have you been camping in Moab? Do you realize how many people camp out there solely to ride mountain bike trails? A crap ton, that's how many. Now, open those trails to ebikes, and where are those campers going to charge their ebikes between rides? Solar ain't gonna cut it.


 In a few years there will be charging stations at trailheads, just like electric cars. It just takes a few years to build out the infrastructure. A small solar field and Powerwall at the parking lot will recharge a lot of bikes. These are very early days: in a generation or two ebikes will be the default norm, not the novelty. It will be the unassisted bike that is unusual. Just give it 30 years......


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Gutch said:


> On a side note, when you get done building that Santa Cruz beast, post a photo!


Wrong guy, no Santa Cruz in my past or future; nothing against their bikes, though.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> In a few years there will be charging stations at trailheads, just like electric cars. It just takes a few years to build out the infrastructure. A small solar field and Powerwall at the parking lot will recharge a lot of bikes. These are very early days: in a generation or two ebikes will be the default norm, not the novelty. It will be the unassisted bike that is unusual. Just give it 30 years......


Sarcasm, I presume?

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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Most of us, I do anyway, arrive at the trail head charged up and ready to ride, both our bodies (high caffeine level works for me) and our bikes. We ride a few hours, get a good workout, see some stuff, and then call it a day and go home. THEN, depending on the batteries SOC, I may or not recharge it, it's not that big of a deal. Maybe if I was younger and had more time, and didn't have to work, I'd worry about running out a battery while still "out", and then wanting to recharge, but for me a few hours of riding pushes all my buttons mentally and physically, and ends well before battery depletion is a factor. Much less recharging out in the boonies.

Right now, my battery is topped off, and I'm loading the eMontague into the plane, then I'll fly 30 miles to a field at the bottom of a ridge I want to ride. I already scouted out the ride the other day using the plane. Also landed on the ridge, the ebike and the plane intersect nicely in finding places to ride, and places to land. My flying acquaintances don't ride, and my riding buddies don't fly, so I don't expect you guys to relate, but it sure is fun.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

WoodlandHills said:


> In a few years there will be charging stations at trailheads, just like electric cars. It just takes a few years to build out the infrastructure. A small solar field and Powerwall at the parking lot will recharge a lot of bikes. These are very early days: in a generation or two ebikes will be the default norm, not the novelty. It will be the unassisted bike that is unusual. Just give it 30 years......


Just like in the '80s when they said everybody would be zooming around in Hovercrafts by now..


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> In a few years there will be charging stations at trailheads, just like electric cars. It just takes a few years to build out the infrastructure. A small solar field and Powerwall at the parking lot will recharge a lot of bikes. These are very early days: in a generation or two ebikes will be the default norm, not the novelty. It will be the unassisted bike that is unusual. Just give it 30 years......


A nightmarish vision, and I fear you may be partially right.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

hikerdave said:


> Wrong guy, no Santa Cruz in my past or future; nothing against their bikes, though.


 My bad, it's highroad2. Sorry.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> A nightmarish vision, and I fear you may be partially right.


 Yes, I believe you are correct. Once class1 are allowed every mtb destination will be scrambling to get emtbrs to their town and collect revenue.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Yes, I believe you are correct. Once class1 are allowed every mtb destination will be scrambling to get emtbrs to their town and collect revenue.


Yes, cause the heart & soul of mountain biking has always been about revenue and squeezing as many people as possible on any given trail.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yes, cause the heart & soul of mountain biking has always been about revenue and squeezing as many people as possible on any given trail.


Things change over time. Mountain biking is no longer a counter culture activity. It is now moving mainstream. As a result it has turned into a revenue generator for several communities. As that success story is shared and proven to work in other locations more locations will jump on board. All in all it's a net win, more trails begets more riders begets more money begets more trails.

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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

tuckerjt07 said:


> more trails begets more riders begets more money begets more trails.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


It's not that simple in 99% of places, it can take decades to get approval for new trails on public land.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> It's not that simple in 99% of places, it can take decades to get approval for new trails on public land.


Which is where the more money helps. One can then afford to hire people that can more efficiently navigate the process, ie lobbiests.

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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

WoodlandHills said:


> In a few years there will be charging stations at trailheads, just like electric cars. It just takes a few years to build out the infrastructure. A small solar field and Powerwall at the parking lot will recharge a lot of bikes. These are very early days: in a generation or two ebikes will be the default norm, not the novelty. It will be the unassisted bike that is unusual. Just give it 30 years......


Come on, that is silly, most people don't even ride bikes, hiking is the "norm", and folks who "auto tour".

The reality is that few people mountain bike, more people ride on paved surfaces, and the majority of people who have a bike do not ride that bike.

Bikes can be an excellent source of entertainment, transportation, but in the USA we are not prolific users of non motorized transportation.

You're thoughts are more reflective of what you might see in a Denmark, in an urban area, but not so much in the USA, and especially not at a mountain biking trailhead.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Send lawyers, money and e-bikes...


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> In a few years there will be charging stations at trailheads, just like electric cars. It just takes a few years to build out the infrastructure. A small solar field and Powerwall at the parking lot will recharge a lot of bikes. These are very early days: in a generation or two ebikes will be the default norm, not the novelty. It will be the unassisted bike that is unusual. Just give it 30 years......


Yep. Surrounded by homeless charging their phones and running long extension cords into their RVs. You'll never be able to get near them. Or, like the free tool stations you see at trailheads, they'll be long gone, appropriated by those who feel entitled to them.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harryman said:


> Yep. Surrounded by homeless charging their phones and running long extension cords into their RVs. You'll never be able to get near them. Or, like the free tool stations you see at trailheads, they'll be long gone, appropriated by those who feel entitled to them.


... and the reality is, very few trailheads have free tool stations, so having ebike plug ins is a stretch to say the least.

Me thinks people read so much fantasy that they start believing it.

I'd call it a delusion, but really it's just fantasy, in which case it's more related to personality.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> In a few years there will be charging stations at trailheads, just like electric cars. It just takes a few years to build out the infrastructure. A small solar field and Powerwall at the parking lot will recharge a lot of bikes. These are very early days: in a generation or two ebikes will be the default norm, not the novelty. It will be the unassisted bike that is unusual. Just give it 30 years......


It will take some pretty huge technological advances to get to the point where an ebike light enough to ride will be able to accept enough current to charge in any reasonable amount of time. Currently with the standard 4A chargers that come with a Class 1 ebike, it takes 4-6 hours to charge from 20%-100%. Charging faster brings with it a whole raft of interesting requirements. Teslas have constantly flowing liquid cooling to keep the batteries from blowing up on a Supercharger. I guess if batteries were standardized, you could remove the battery from the bike and put it in a charging unit that controlled the temperature somehow, but the $$$$$ required makes this very unlikely, let alone the improbability of all bikes using the same batteries.

Just bring a spare, and charge the drained battery from your car while you ride the fresh one.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Yeah, that'll work, for those that feel the need to ride all day. For those wanting a ride of 2 or 3 hours, even that not's necessary.

My plane/bike flight/ride went off perfect today. Climbed to the top of a 2700' high ridge, after landing at it's base, got up to the high point and only turned back when a giant mud trench that was at least 1 foot deep with no way around it forced me to. 9.2 miles, .9 hours of flying, and I still made my first crane job of the day right on time. A perfect mix of work and play. I'll be the first to admit that no way could I have made that ride, in that time, without e power. And even though the plane is slow, 75-85 mph, it flies in a straight line, over the 2 mountain ranges I would have had to drive around, so a 1 hour + drive was a 20 minute flight. Combining the plane's advantages with the ebikes advantages, let me have a great morning and still a productive work day.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> In a few years there will be charging stations at trailheads, just like electric cars. It just takes a few years to build out the infrastructure. A small solar field and Powerwall at the parking lot will recharge a lot of bikes. These are very early days: in a generation or two ebikes will be the default norm, not the novelty. It will be the unassisted bike that is unusual. Just give it 30 years......


I wholehearted disagree. in 30 years eBikes may not be a novelty, but they will not overtake human powered bicycles at trailheads.

In 30 years I will be 71 years old, and probably still moderating this site. Lets compare notes on this topic then. ;-)


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I wholehearted disagree. in 30 years eBikes may not be a novelty, but they will not overtake human powered bicycles at trailheads.
> 
> In 30 years I will be 71 years old, and probably still moderating this site. Lets compare notes on this topic then. ;-)


In 30 years you won't even be able to tell if a bike is an ebike or not just by looking at it. People will own one MTB, and if they feel like having some assist for the day, they will pop in the motor/battery unit. We are close already with the ebikes with Fazua power.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Yeah, that'll work, for those that feel the need to ride all day. For those wanting a ride of 2 or 3 hours, even that not's necessary.
> 
> My plane/bike flight/ride went off perfect today. Climbed to the top of a 2700' high ridge, after landing at it's base, got up to the high point and only turned back when a giant mud trench that was at least 1 foot deep with no way around it forced me to. 9.2 miles, .9 hours of flying, and I still made my first crane job of the day right on time. A perfect mix of work and play. I'll be the first to admit that no way could I have made that ride, in that time, without e power. And even though the plane is slow, 75-85 mph, it flies in a straight line, over the 2 mountain ranges I would have had to drive around, so a 1 hour + drive was a 20 minute flight. Combining the plane's advantages with the ebikes advantages, let me have a great morning and still a productive work day.


Jesus man. You're carbon footprint to do your thing is ginormous. So you need a plane and an electric bike to have a great morning. Whatever.

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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Yeah, that'll work, for those that feel the need to ride all day. For those wanting a ride of 2 or 3 hours, even that not's necessary.
> 
> My plane/bike flight/ride went off perfect today. Climbed to the top of a 2700' high ridge, after landing at it's base, got up to the high point and only turned back when a giant mud trench that was at least 1 foot deep with no way around it forced me to. 9.2 miles, .9 hours of flying, and I still made my first crane job of the day right on time. A perfect mix of work and play. I'll be the first to admit that no way could I have made that ride, in that time, without e power. And even though the plane is slow, 75-85 mph, it flies in a straight line, over the 2 mountain ranges I would have had to drive around, so a 1 hour + drive was a 20 minute flight. Combining the plane's advantages with the ebikes advantages, let me have a great morning and still a productive work day.


 Pretty badass. Fly your plane in, roll out the bike and rip. Plus get a days work in. Pretty jealous actually.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

mbmb65 said:


> Jesus man. You're carbon footprint to do your thing is ginormous. So you need a plane and an electric bike to have a great morning. Whatever.


Yes. That's sad.

I feel bad driving to the local trailhead so I've been riding my human powered bike there 1hr each way and carpooling in a full vehicle most of the time when we ride further afield.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yeah, I feel bad when I do burnouts in my 72 Monte Carlo, off-road in my Jeep, and rip the blue ridge on my BMW. I did eat some alfalfa sprouts with a few shots of Jack though.

Do you guys actually ride ebikes or just like to judge what and how a guy enjoys his day?


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

mbmb65 said:


> Jesus man. You're carbon footprint to do your thing is ginormous. So you need a plane and an electric bike to have a great morning. Whatever.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I burned about 1.5 gallons of regular mogas to get there, what would have been about a 45 mile drive. I see most mtbr's seem to favor small suv's, like Soobs, RAV4's, and not to mention I also see a lot of full size pickup used to haul bikes. To this plug in Prius driver, a Soob is a frigging gas hog, and I wouldn't be caught dead in one. My e bike was charged with surplus power from my grid tied wind, hydro, and solar system. Care to compare some more? Plus, I've been a vegetarian for 47 years, and now I hear that's more carbon friendly, want me to go on? I've been 100% alternative energy powered for the last 35 years, way before it became green, or cool. Lastly, I recycle ALL my beer cans, and recycle the glass bottles, ha ha.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

He's just bragging, give the guy a break, it's just a plane.



mbmb65 said:


> Jesus man. You're carbon footprint to do your thing is ginormous. So you need a plane and an electric bike to have a great morning. Whatever.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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