# new jones bikes made by merlin



## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

better have a look before they all get bought by british folk...

http://www.jonesbikes.com/update/runoften/index.html


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## John Jencks (Jan 8, 2007)

*yep that'd be me*

and weirdly, you're right I'm british...
esp. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6562743.stm

I was wondering how long it'd take for this to hit the 29er forum, by your usual standards, you've been a little slow. :thumbsup:


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

ah sea otter and such i guess...


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

Prices seem fair, can't complain about Merlin (other than the people they work for).

Nice if you happen to fit the stock sizing.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Remind me to start charging more.


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## John Jencks (Jan 8, 2007)

I used to own a '97 Vandermark desgined Merlin, there's still a pinch in my stomach (and I want to put a gun to my head) everytime I remember I sold that bike to some idiot who wanted to use it as a commuter. But I was still recovering from knee and back issues and hadn't been able to ride the Merlin for a couple of years. 
It was especially hard once I started riding frequently again, knowing that the Merlin that had once been, wasn't around anymore and some new version of the company had taken over.
Now there's the Jones version.


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Remind me to start charging more.


Get yourself established as global top-3 quality builder and charge whatever you feel like, easy money!


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

I would rather buy and own a Niner or a Turner or an Intense or a Ventana etc... or two.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

He *designs* frames, he doesn't actually build them - _they're built by various builders around the globe_ :???oes that still make him a builder? Not in my mind, he's a good designer.


Cloxxki said:


> Get yourself established as global top-3 quality builder and charge whatever you feel like, easy money!


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Cloxxki said:


> Get yourself established as global top-3 quality builder and charge whatever you feel like, easy money!


This is not a cynical question; what makes him a "global top three builder"? As in who decides that and what is it??


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## mud'n'sweat (Feb 16, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> Remind me to start charging more.


You need the reputation first.


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## kinkcrazy (Nov 14, 2004)

Can you explain "built by various builders around the globe"? One relatively small company selected to do a run of his frames seems to be a forward move without jumping ship from what he as been known for in my mind, prototyping new ideas. It allows for some small scale production, getting more people out on his bikes. Hasn't he built every single Jones frame too date? A Jones bike is not really my cup of tea but I am continually impressed with the ideas he works through. He has a very interesting take on frame geometry that is a real departure from production bikes, why not get it out there to a few more people and see if it makes some sense. I see this as an opportunity for him to continue working through new ideas and concepts.


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## pahearn (Feb 17, 2006)

Cloxxki said:


> Nice if you happen to fit the stock sizing.


I believe they're still custom-made, only by the dudes at Merlin -- no?:

"As with all Jones bicycles every order will be carefully considered and discussed with each individual customer. All will be assembled, tested and tuned by Jeff. All have options and extras available. The difference with this 'run of ten' is the frames are handmade by (the hugely respected experts at) Merlin. This delivers 'Jones-approved quality' and delivery within 12 weeks of ordering."


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## bigwheelboy_490 (Jan 2, 2003)

I think this is really a great fit for Jeff. He can still build frames, but to do a production run, I think Merlin will be much better prepared for this endeavour. I think sometimes you need to recognize that it is much better to align your business strengths with a partner to succeed.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> This is not a cynical question; what makes him a "global top three builder"? As in who decides that and what is it??


I think he was referring to Merlin, not Jeff Jones.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

bikeny said:


> I think he was referring to Merlin, not Jeff Jones.


Thanks. Any idea what makes Merlin a top three global builder? 
Still just curious, not cynical (as I usually am just cynical).


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

there is a conceptual statement on the (jones) website that is worth a read as to why merlin and jeff are collaborating...personally i think, like i did about for example ISIS that it shows there are still some risk takers and good people kicking around willing to make effort to get good stuff out there...its not all money fad money fad.....

chapeau jeff and merlin i say.


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## jeeves (Mar 12, 2007)

I'd hardly call a run of 10 a large run, but 10 frames of the exact same size will certainly allow for some efficiency with regard to the build. Them's a lot of TI tubes to bend! 

I think he's made an intelligent choice - his frames are clearly pretty labor intensive, and have a long waiting period. This will allow a (small) group of folks to get a Jones design at a much better price. I would guess that even a run of 10 will increase the the number of Jones bikes out there by what...a third? A significant amount, for such a rare frame. 

Of course, you won't be getting a frame built BY Jeff Jones, and you won't get custom frame sizing and details. On the flip side, I'm sure there are some benefits to having these built over at Merlin - they may be able to do things at their facility that Jeff might not be able to do at his workshop, and I'd wager that the folks at Merlin that get put on this job aren't going to be slouches!

I'm looking forward to seeing more information as it surfaces.

-Raj


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

*Yeah...*



bigwheelboy_490 said:


> I think this is really a great fit for Jeff. He can still build frames, but to do a production run, I think Merlin will be much better prepared for this endeavour. I think sometimes you need to recognize that it is much better to align your business strengths with a partner to succeed.


I think this is a good move, and it somehow does not seem like "selling out" (even though it could be twisted around to say it IS a sellout). It seems very honest and straight forward.


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

Jeff sent me the pdf announcing this a week or two ago, not sure but I think I'd rather wait and have Jeff build it for me, although obviously I have nothing against Merlin, if I was wanting a Merlin then fine but I want a Jones!...


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

*top 3*



teamdicky said:


> Thanks. Any idea what makes Merlin a top three global builder?
> Still just curious, not cynical (as I usually am just cynical).


seems pretty arbitrary eh?

i think it would be more ingenuous to say 'merlin is a highly regarded frame shop and jeffs designs/workmanship have garnered interest and respect...'


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## Mike Brown (Mar 12, 2004)

kinkcrazy said:


> Can you explain "built by various builders around the globe"? One relatively small company selected to do a run of his frames seems to be a forward move without jumping ship from what he as been known for in my mind, prototyping new ideas. It allows for some small scale production, getting more people out on his bikes. Hasn't he built every single Jones frame too date? A Jones bike is not really my cup of tea but I am continually impressed with the ideas he works through. He has a very interesting take on frame geometry that is a real departure from production bikes, why not get it out there to a few more people and see if it makes some sense. I see this as an opportunity for him to continue working through new ideas and concepts.


Various builders around the globe refers to Thylacine, not Jones/Merlin collaboration.

Mike


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

No comment on the $9600 part. None.

But this (lifted from the Jones website) is what boggles me:
_*All will be assembled, tested and tuned by Jeff.*_

Why? Is it rampant snobbery, that NO ONE ELSE could possibly assemble a bike as well as Jeff?

I doubt it. I've spoken with Jeff a few times and he just doesn't come off as a snob. Opinionated as all get out, which is great, but not a snob.

Then why? Why does a respected framebuilder with more talent than most in his pinky fingernail insist on doing the monkey work? How is that a good use of his time?

And, someone please tell me, when it comes to stewed prunes, is three really enough?

MC


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## Endomaniac (Jan 6, 2004)

No matter what the sticker says or how swoopy the tubes are its still just going to be a Litespeed.:arf: 

Really it’s a pretty good deal as a frame set, considering Litespeed’s top road bikes retail at $4300 for just a simple double diamond frame. At $5500 for a frame/fork and possibly a headset and post that’s a bargain. Now an extra $4,350 for a SS build kit is just stupid.ut:


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## biff (Jul 16, 2004)

_Then why? Why does a respected framebuilder with more talent than most in his pinky fingernail insist on doing the monkey work? How is that a good use of his time?_

I don't think Jeff would think of it as monkeywork - his assembly, test rides, tweaks and tuning is done to ensure the bike is, in his eyes, perfect (I've always had 'problems' with my Jones in getting it as 'race-prep sweet' as when he first handed it over to me). I guess Jeff always wants to deliver something he can be proud of - no bad thing.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

i suspect from previous posts that set up would be very personal and detail orientated...like pointed out ~ high man hours for small but real returns from function and aesthetic p.o v's...that seems to be part of what is being offered...certaily unusual in the bike world, but not dissimilar to bespoke jewellery, surf boards or surgery...!


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## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

I agree with Mikesee, in talking with Jeff, he dosen't come off as snobbish. Just very intelligent about bikes and very meticulous. But $5500 for a for a Litespeed of his design?


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## Loki (Oct 15, 2004)

mikesee said:


> And, someone please tell me, when it comes to stewed prunes, is three really enough?
> 
> MC


The question is.

When it comes to stewed prunes, is two enough, or is three to many?


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

well...given the amount of tubing bending, welding prepping mitring (sp?) etc id say any ti builder is going to need to ask for a fair few $...and the fork is prolly as complex as some frames...

hey it aint bad from this side of the pond!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

biff said:


> I don't think Jeff would think of it as monkeywork - his assembly, test rides, tweaks and tuning is done to ensure the bike is, in his eyes, perfect (I've always had 'problems' with my Jones in getting it as 'race-prep sweet' as when he first handed it over to me). I guess Jeff always wants to deliver something he can be proud of - no bad thing.


And I should clarify by saying that I don't think of it as unskilled work, but I've seen passionate 14 year old kids that can dial a bike in as well or better than the best wrenches out there. It is not difficult, it just requires a tiny bit of knowledge and the willingness to do it right.

I guess I'm just a little mystified. He has huge demand for his frames and forks. Huge. Like as in years long waiting lists. Yet he continues to putter along with the stuff that anyone can be easily taught/trained to do, and there are hundreds of people out there capable of doing it just in his part of Oregon. I'd imagine there are a few dozen highly trained wrenches that would love to spend a month as his apprentice, doing the wrenching and absorbing lessons and innuenda from Jeff. He obviously recognizes that demand is outpacing his ability to supply the goods, as evidenced by this collaboration with Merlin.

Hmf. Just thinkin' out loud...

MC


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

I though something had changed. I saw a pic of Jeff and his bike at Sea Otter and noticed that he now has a bent seat tube and the welding looked smoother. Last time I spoke with him, he still hadn't figured out how to bend a 1.25" tube without kinks. Good for him, good for people wanting that design without the wait.


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## biff (Jul 16, 2004)

MC - yes, I see your point, I'm inclined to agree actually and Jeff could still do final checking and testing.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

Maybe he just prefers completeing his visions and riding them to bending and welding tubes, and makes enough money as things are to allow him to do so to his hearts content.

If so, his decision to outsource the welding to someone he trusts makes plenty of sense to me. It gives him more time to evaluate and refine his designs -- hard to do if your cuffed to a jig trying to meet the demands of others.


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## b1umb0y (Feb 28, 2005)

mikesee said:


> Then why? Why does a respected framebuilder with more talent than most in his pinky fingernail insist on doing the monkey work? How is that a good use of his time?


From what I have heard it has mostly to do with his passion for the gestalt. This kind of mentality reminds me of Mark Rothko and his insistence on how his artwork was to be displayed (despite what the buyers wanted (or had). He would even spend his valuble time setting up a room to display his work *correctly*. It really is part of the whole process and can change its interpretation.

Anyway, back to bikes... I am sure he wants the future owners of these very expensive rigs to feel the fullness of his original idea incarnate and that I can respect without question or ego.

bb


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## biff (Jul 16, 2004)

Yeah, that too - I think to have the bike meet Jeff's test-ride criteria is a good thing. I can only dream of pushing (!) my Jones to the level Jeff has ridden it to. It's reassuring and confidence-inspiring to know the 'envelope' is quite some way off :O)


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*I'll tell you why...*

Yo MC -

As someone who has experienced firsthand what a 14 year old shop employee can do to a custom frame, I know exactly why Jeff insists on building the bikes up first. Put cutting tools, presses, taps, and other tools of mass destruction in the hands of shop employees (or at least some of them) and you're asking for trouble.

In Jeff's case, *most* of his customers are probably folks who are more than comfortable working on their own bikes - but there are always a few who aren't, who are going to take their new frame/parts to some random bike shop, leave it for a week, and then believe whatever bizarre story the shop comes up with to explain their screwups, and in turn blame the builder if the taps went through the BB shell backwards or whatever.

In my case, I ream/face/chase/tap and install most of the parts which interface with the frame before shipping, because I've found that about 5-10% of the time, shops will screw these tasks up. That's really a pretty good rate of success, but when you're talking about someone potentially ruining a $1000 frame (or in Jeff's case, a $5k+ one) that means it's worth $100(me) or $500(Jeff) to do the job yourself. Putting *all* the parts on is taking it a step farther, but it doesn't seem *that* weird to me.

Personally, I'm more mystified by Jeff's insistence on riding every bike he builds - I've built plenty of bikes for people who were 4'10" or 7'2" or whatever where it's basically stupid for me to ride it - the fit is so bad for me that I can't tell you anything much about the handling, so why bother? In many other cases, the geometry is virtually identical to many, many other bikes I've ridden - again, why would I want to build the bike up and ride it?

Still, I've never heard of Jeff having an unhappy customer, so something must be going right with the whole process.

-Walt



mikesee said:


> And I should clarify by saying that I don't think of it as unskilled work, but I've seen passionate 14 year old kids that can dial a bike in as well or better than the best wrenches out there. It is not difficult, it just requires a tiny bit of knowledge and the willingness to do it right.
> MC


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Walt said:


> As someone who has experienced firsthand what a 14 year old shop employee can do to a custom frame, I know exactly why Jeff insists on building the bikes up first. Put cutting tools, presses, taps, and other tools of mass destruction in the hands of shop employees (or at least some of them) and you're asking for trouble.


Who the he11 left the door open and let *you* in here?

And why you gotta be so smart alla time?

Good point, but I think that age of the wrench is irrelevant, or at least far less important than the level to which they care.



> Putting *all* the parts on is taking it a step farther, but it doesn't seem *that* weird to me.


OK. But he's outsourcing the one thing that (IMO) people seem to be paying the big bucks for--his expertise and attention to detail in the bending, mitering, fixturing, and welding. And then essentially charging a bucketload for pro assembly. Doesn't make sense to me.



> Personally, I'm more mystified by Jeff's insistence on riding every bike he builds


Maybe it's because Jeff actually (ahem) enjoys riding bikes, where you prefer to hold court with your adoring masses, imbibing the alcoholic refreshments that they lay (while averting their eyes) at your feet?



> Still, I've never heard of Jeff having an unhappy customer, so something must be going right with the whole process.


Yep. Just curious about how/why it's evolving the way it is. Which is a shorthanded way of saying that I've got some not-so-passionate guys out tearing the roof off of my shop, thereby preventing me from getting anything done. And it rained last night, so the trails are still to wet to ride. Rare to have time like this on my hands....

Can you hear that? It's the sound of two thumbs, twiddling...

MC


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## biff (Jul 16, 2004)

_OK. But he's outsourcing the one thing that (IMO) people seem to be paying the big bucks for - his expertise and attention to detail in the bending, mitering, fixturing, and welding. And then essentially charging a bucketload for pro assembly. Doesn't make sense to me._

I think the design is the money-shot. The building needs to be of the highest quality but the ride is in the design, not the fabrication. Merlin doing the building leaves Jeff more time to invent, build and test more stuff.


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## Hollywood (Dec 30, 2003)

biff said:


> Merlin doing the building leaves Jeff more time to invent,


speaking to JJ at Sea Otter, that was his main reason for the farm-out; he has no time to be creative and come up with cool new designs. He's now just a torch bot, cranking out orders with 180 people on the wait list. So this gives him a little breathing room to come up with The Next Big Thing.

I took a quick spin on the bike he had with him. Fully geared with friction thumbies. A nice contrast to the wild ti tubes and always a great feeling frame + fork. I hit the rear brake lever and pulled a wicked power slide to show off in front of Jeff. I think he was impressed with my skillz.


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

bikeny said:


> I think he was referring to Merlin, not Jeff Jones.


I was referring to Jones. Name a more daring, wilder, dedicated builder delivering better word. 
Contemplating a price increase out loud after seeing Jones'/Merlins prices doesn't really come across very nicely, at least to me reading it on the web. Charge $5500 for a frameset, see if you get customers. Jones will, and for a very good reason (set of reasons really).


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

mikesee said:


> And, someone please tell me, when it comes to stewed prunes, is three really enough?
> 
> MC


Three would be enough if they were the global top three quality prunes.


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

*I dont see it that way...*



mikesee said:


> _*All will be assembled, tested and tuned by Jeff.*_
> 
> Why? Is it rampant snobbery, that NO ONE ELSE could possibly assemble a bike as well as Jeff?


I take that more as a statement that final QC and inspection will be by the man himself. He *is *a talented wrench, so you know that it will be well "tuned", but I suspect the real heart of this statement is to instill confidence to the buyer...another way to say it would have been, 
"all will have the hell kicked out of them by Jeff personally...just like the ones he welds...pending that final test, it will be cleaned and delivered to you..."

Additionally, I think it makes buyers feel a little more warm and fuzzy knowing that the final "build" was done by JJ.

Just my thoughts...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*That's it...*

In order:

-Agreed, the age of the wrench isn't relevant. I know plenty of youngsters that do great jobs, I know plenty of old hands that screw up half of everything they touch.
-Agreed#2. If I were to outsource anything, it wouldn't be the actual frame construction. I mean, that's what's *fun* for me. Installing parts onto a frame is dead boring.
-Riding? What's that? I just love the big money, hordes of adoring female fans, private jet, and yes, free beer that come as perks of being part of this mighty industry! Remember, Mr. President, what's good for Waltworks is good for America...

It's wet here too, and I was supposed to ride this afternoon. Hence free time. Hence MTBR. Doh.

-Walt



mikesee said:


> Who the he11 left the door open and let *you* in here?
> 
> And why you gotta be so smart alla time?
> 
> ...


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## jfkbike2 (Feb 8, 2005)

*Win Win*



Walt said:


> Personally, I'm more mystified by Jeff's insistence on riding every bike he builds - I've built plenty of bikes for people who were 4'10" or 7'2" or whatever where it's basically stupid for me to ride it - the fit is so bad for me that I can't tell you anything much about the handling, so why bother? In many other cases, the geometry is virtually identical to many, many other bikes I've ridden - again, why would I want to build the bike up and ride it?
> 
> -Walt


BTW this run all happens to be in Jeff's size so fit will not be an issue.

Merlin certainly can weld a fine bike and since it is a true JJ design and I assume he specs the tubing then it should ride exactly like a Jones. I'm sure Jeff wants to build and test them to assure himself of this as well as his customers. Sounds like a good plan to me and if I was in line and this size worked for me I would not hesitate to buy a Merlin welded Jones as it would be the design I wanted and not the mystique.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Will the downtube stickers say "Jones," "Merlin," "Jones-Merlin," or "Merlin-Jones?"

Or maybe "Meones?"

Meon:
m. & f.
1. (que mea mucho) *child who wets itself often*
2. (recién nacido) newborn, baby

"Children who wet themselves often." Describes 29er folks pretty well.


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

It's indeed more about the design to customers than to the hands of the builder, at least it seems to me. To keep control over bikes with his design, and make more customers on his waiting list a Jones owner in life, this is a good solution. Jeff's prepping and testing is a quality guarantee that belongs to putting his name on the downtubes.
Jeff will still be building himself, but taking longer per bike, it being custom. 

From some reports I heard, it seems the high-end ti builders are hurting a bit now. Raw material prices are perhaps too high. A custom Ti frame can now be had in a matter of days, at least with the more production and more well-known builders.


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## Johnny5 (Jul 26, 2006)

Cloxxki said:


> .
> Contemplating a price increase out loud after seeing Jones'/Merlins prices doesn't really come across very nicely


I found it quite humorous, Thylacine might have just won over a new customer because of it. I'd rather hang out with a funny bloke than a pompous one. It's just a bike.



Cloxxki said:


> Charge $5500 for a frameset, see if you get customers.


Worth is in the eye of the beholder. I ride a Surly now and feel like the luckiest guy on the planet when I'm out riding.


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

Johnny5 said:


> I ride a Surly now and feel like the luckiest guy on the planet when I'm out riding.


I could say the same thing....Actually I often do...but I would love to ride a Jones some time...possibly even own one some day.

I really don't interpret these statements as pompous, or arrogant. I think it is just offering assurance to the consumer.

As a guy who rides a Surly almost exclusively, I can relate to what you are saying, but you must admitt that JJs bikes (the normal, or non-run-of-10) are worth MORE than what people are paying for them....Factor in how much time people are willing to wait, and it is not hard to imagine what people would pay for one that they could get in short order....when you look at it that way, it is hard to conclude that these (run-of-10) are not a bargain....may be not a bargain in YOUR eyes, but in the eyes of someone that is willing to buy a regular Jones AND wait 5-7 years...it is a bargain.

Flame on that one for a while....


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## mud'n'sweat (Feb 16, 2006)

Johnny5 said:


> I'd rather hang out with a funny bloke than a pompous one. It's just a bike.


Funny, he has always come across overly pompous on these forums.


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## mud'n'sweat (Feb 16, 2006)

LyNx said:


> He *designs* frames, he doesn't actually build them - _they're built by various builders around the globe_ :???oes that still make him a builder? Not in my mind, he's a good designer.


Nope, he is most certainly a builder. Don't confuse one production run of 10 being out sourced. I am pretty sure every Jones you have seen on MTBR was made by Jeff himself.


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## mward (Apr 7, 2004)

mud'n'sweat said:


> Funny, he has always come across overly pompous on these forums.


And never misses an opportunity to plug his business.

Mudnsweat - lynx was talking about thylacine, not jones.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

If I wanted a Jones, [and I do!] I would want it built by Jeff himself from the ground up.

I can understand why he is doing this, but for me, the magic is in the frame builder himself, not in Merlin.

The bikes I currently ride [Niner Bikes] are designed by Niner but built in Taiwan, so they aren't custom, even though the designs and final approval are from Niner.

I would regard the Merlin built frames the same. They are designed by Jeff but will be built by Merlin, and even though he will 'brush' the frame before it goes out to the customer, it isn't the same thing to me.

I'm sure the Merlin built frames will sell ok, but .... if I was going to pay that sort of money, I would want a genuine JJ fabbed frame.

My opinion...

R.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

A custom frame is designed for an individual. IMO, the person who executes the design does not change the products custom nature. On the other hand, a stock frame is still stock even if it is created from start to finish by one person.

That is not to say that I don't care who executes the design, but I don't believe in magic. Design is subjective. Welds, less so.

I'm sure that even a custom designed JJ frame built by Merlin will ultimately be valued differently, but for reasons that matter little to me. Give the option, I would choose a less expensive/earlier delivered Merlin version.


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## jeeves (Mar 12, 2007)

Rainman said:


> If I wanted a Jones, [and I do!] I would want it built by Jeff himself from the ground up.
> I'm sure the Merlin built frames will sell ok, but .... if I was going to pay that sort of money, I would want a genuine JJ fabbed frame.


I think that's a pretty valid opinion! That would be my preference as well, but to me the main thing in this particular instance is the design - I'm dying to ride a Jones frame.

If he's involved enough in the process and specs the tubing, etc, I'm sure that this frame will ride just as well as his customs. I've seen some pretty nice work on Merlin bikes, so I doubt that the weld quality and alignment are going to be an issue. Yes, it's missing that extra ZOOT of a Jones original, but the ride's the thing that I'm after.

Jeeves


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## biff (Jul 16, 2004)

It ain't going to help any of you over there perhaps, but for anyone in the UK, or passing through, I'm more than happy to have people ride my Jones. All the (most considered) 'this 'n' that' and 'looks funny' are really insignificant - the ride is everything and I'd like more people to experience it for themselves. I guess Jeff would too.


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## mud'n'sweat (Feb 16, 2006)

mward said:


> And never misses an opportunity to plug his business.
> 
> Mudnsweat - lynx was talking about thylacine, not jones.


EXACTLY!

BTW- my mistake Lnyx


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## pswann (Feb 16, 2004)

I heard Matt Chester was building these frames.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

pswann said:


> I heard Matt Chester was building these frames.


Doooooooooood...


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## ilostmypassword (Dec 9, 2006)

Those frames are ugly.


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## mvi (Jan 15, 2004)

It could very well be that the welding, and building precision is better than an original Jones.
Who knows? I have an old Litespeed,pre-series custom road frame (third owner) since 9 years.
Everytime I think about selling, and look at the bike, I can not get to it. The welds are awesome, the fit of the rear wheel in the dropouts is so precise. The frame equivalent of a Snap On wrench. Who ever build it was a pro. Glad I never sold. At 14 year it might be a classic.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Well, ya know, just even postin on this thread is selling Jones more bikes, so being the pompous self promoter that I clearly am, let's sell some Jones instead, shall we? 

This is the way I see it : People buy a Jones because of the design, and the mysticism of a beared guy living in the woods crankin out frames like a wizard.

I totally respect Jeff as a bike designer - he's got it goin' on - but as a one man band, what are you going to do when demand outstrips supply?

If the design is there, and the demand is there, you outsourse.

Yes, the people that buy into the untangible will say "I'd rather had one he made", but you know what? I'd prefer a Merlin made one, for one simple fact -

They weld more Ti frames than he does.

People always miss that the importance of what Jeff has achieved is *design*. He's tweaked the frames, he's worked out the logistics, the only difference is he's getting someone else to stick 10 of the things together.

When you combine his expertise, what he has achieved, his design, and combine it with what I think even he would agree is a company that has fabricated and welded 10,000 times more frames than he has, I reckon you have a sum much greater than the parts.

I wish him all the success. This is a canny move.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Well, ya know, just even postin on this thread is selling Jones more bikes, so being the pompous self promoter that I clearly am, let's sell some Jones instead, shall we?
> 
> This is the way I see it : People buy a Jones because of the design, and the mysticism of a beared guy living in the woods crankin out frames like a wizard.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with this. If I wanted to buy a Rembrandt or a Rolls Royce, or a Jeff Jones Ti frame, I wouldn't go to another artist or builder and ask them to make me one.

That ...to me, wouldn't be the "real thing" and it wouldn't be what I wanted or was paying for.

Whilst I realise that there are some benefits to Jeff and to those wanting a frame without having to wait for one, if it isn't built by him personally, then it isn't a Jeff Jones, imo.

You can design a bike and get someone else to build it for you, then stick your name on it...like you do now. But is that yours? "Designed by" isn't the same as "Built by" imo.

R.


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## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

He should out source the H-handlebars to Merlin and build the frames himself. Be true to your customers and get the frames built as fast as you can.


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## mvi (Jan 15, 2004)

Like Rembrandt he could have his apprentices cut, grind , spotweld everything together, after wich he would finish the welding, and they can clean and package..


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## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

I like Evel's idea - outsource the lesser components and build the bigger ones ( frames ) in house.


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## poppy (Jan 24, 2006)

If i was in for a Jones frame i would happily get one of those, if Jeff sell them as Jones so they are, if the frame is customized for ones needs it is custom, no metter who weld it.
i'm sure Jeff Jones is a great welder and bike builder, but if to get a frame from him has nothing to do with his welding skills, i would be base on who make the bike i like the most and can customized it to fit my needs, then if he want to weld it himself its fine by me as long as he is the best welder for this frame, if someone else is i could not care less.


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## GlowBoy (Jan 3, 2004)

Jeff Jones said:


> Every order will be carefully considered and discussed with each individual customer


It might take a while to sell 10 of these frames, since they're all the same size and presumably Jeff believes greatly in proper fit. I'm sure he'll be telling as many potential customers NO as YES. I know I wouldn't want to spend that kind of cash on a bike unless it was going to fit me _perfectly_.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Rainman said:


> I don't agree with this. If I wanted to buy a Rembrandt or a Rolls Royce, or a Jeff Jones Ti frame, I wouldn't go to another artist or builder and ask them to make me one.


Hey man, they're only 5,500, not 5,550,000!

The thing you don't fathom is that it's a bike, not a painting. Form vs Function is a little skewed the opposite direction, but hey, if you want to straddle the print of the McCubbin you have hanging above the fireplace and hit the trails, far be it for me to argue!

I'll let you in on a secret I've gleaned from Jeffs website, you know, as a guy that knows nothing about bike frames. When you have the cash for better, more precise tooling, when you use a NC mandrel tube bender rather than a tube bender designed for bending mufflers, when your welder has welded thousands of Ti frames not a hundred, you end up with a better frame.

It may not give you a little chubby and want to live in the forest and grow a beard, but that's the facts.

Do you honestly think Jeff would put out a product he didn't think was going to be as good or even better than his current stuff?

Jeff, get in here and speak to the congregation!


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

GlowBoy said:


> It might take a while to sell 10 of these frames


I would imagine that they're all sold already. It's a very good price and the quality will be amazing.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

mvi said:


> Like Rembrandt he could have his apprentices cut, grind , spotweld everything together, after which he would finish the welding, and they can clean and package..


A wizard in the bush pulls every custom frame out of a toads arse. Don't listen to this mvi guy!


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

GlowBoy said:


> It might take a while to sell 10 of these frames, since they're all the same size and presumably Jeff believes greatly in proper fit. I'm sure he'll be telling as many potential customers NO as YES. I know I wouldn't want to spend that kind of cash on a bike unless it was going to fit me _perfectly_.


He just h
Ad a similar run of one-size frames done by his own hands, at a price that was subject of much discussion on MTBR. If you're around 6' (or whatever fits best) and you're not intimidated by custom ti prices, although maybe not custom, one of these will be a great buy. If you have the cash, and can spare it, few reasons NOT to line up for one. You could be riding it this summer, in stead of a decade long waiting list because you failed to read the mags and forums for a few years


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Hey man, they're only 5,500, not 5,550,000!
> 
> The thing you don't fathom is that it's a bike, not a painting. Form vs Function is a little skewed the opposite direction, but hey, if you want to straddle the print of the McCubbin you have hanging above the fireplace and hit the trails, far be it for me to argue!
> 
> ...


 No ... no ... no.. you miss the point entirely.. :nono:

Let me spell it out in more simple terms.

If Jeff Jones makes a frame from the start, whether it be for me or you or whoever, it is a Jeff Jones built frame that he made with his own two hands and his skill. *That* is what I want, and that is what I pay for and value.

It is unique. Why? Because HE built it himself. It is not a frame built by someone else to his design. It is a *genuine* Jeff Jones frame built entirely by Jeff Jones...and *that* is what makes it so valuable to *me*.

Do you understand that?

This is the reason why some things are valued so highly above others, even though the copies may look as good and perform as well....they are not the genuine article.

It is *his* knowledge, skill and hands-on ability and 'touch' that I want to buy, whether he has bent the tubes on an old vice or with the best tube bender available, it makes no difference. He did the bending, welding and fabricating. *That* is what I value.

R.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

Can I requote your last line with different emphasis?



> That is what *I* value.


Could I surmise you'd be even more excited about a Jones Jones if jeff had actually mined, extracted, refined and wrought the tubes with his bare hands?

PS: I hear he uses power tools too!


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Could I surmise you'd be even more excited about a Jones Jones if jeff had actually mined, extracted, refined and wrought the tubes with his bare hands?


Shuddup Brant! You just put your stickers on someone elses frames! They're not even yours!

:smilewinkgrin:

I must confess that it frightens me that people would not only actively choose a potentially an inferior product, but also think they have the right to tell someone what is theirs and what is not.

Hey Jeff! Those frames aren't Jones's! You're just putting your stickers on someone elses frames!

Yeah, I'm floggin' a dead horse. :ciappa:


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## pooka (Jul 16, 2006)

three pages of controversy about a product some of you compare to old paintings and not even a single crappy pic ...

As I recongnized the Run-of-Ten offer for the first time, I thought in terms of selfmarketing I wouldn´t be suprised if that turns out to be a stupid idea. It was pretty predictable that there are at least a couple of Jones fans out there who will think of it as a sacrileg if anybody else than the beardy woodman himself weld the tubes to a frame. Even if the partner for the outsourcing is that reliable as Merlin.

Simply spoken, those frames are for people who rates function over art & who would grap a perfect fitting frame buying on of these ten . And if I understood Jones own thinking about his products, he also rates function and craftmanship over everything. Ok,to some it seems he is a talented sculpturer too, but at first he seems to be a clever designer. And to outsource some of its frames to deal with the huge demand on his products probably help him to continue with designing. Of course he could also outsource the H-bars or his xtr crank-tuning but he better ´ld not. Those bars surly would turn to Merlins or whomevers bars in a short while. I guess the way Jeff Jones took, is a very clever one if you look twice. He can continue to work and offer his whole portfolio and offers something of its great concept to those, fascinate by its functional aspects who don´t need a fully custom geo. And I´m pretty sure Merlin Jones are at least of the top notch quality as its still available original.
If I had the money I ´ld love to go with such a stock jones. But I rather adapt some of its geometry thinking to a custom steel frame from a local framebuilder.

b.asti


Oh my god, I posted on the 29er display. What happened?


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## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*As a Merlin-fan/wannbe.....*

I have lusted after a Merlin (Somerville) since I knew what Ti was. I have to say, Merlin, as a Ti builder has been known throughout the Bike industry for thier Quality as well as thier high $$$. Even after they moved to Litespeed they retained their quality status. Although us in the EAST regard the move like the Sox trading Babe Ruth to the Yanks! (Say it ain't soooo!!):madman: 
The question still exists. How many bikes in your garage were designed AND built by the same person? Not many I suppose.
I look in my garage and see A Gunnar, a Carver, A Cannondale tandem, Surly 1x1, a Torker Municycle. All designed by someone other than the builder.
I applaud Jones for this move. More people exposed to his bikes. He also found it important enough to let buyers know about his partnership with another builder. Unlike so in the industry who source things out and "Slap on their sticker".


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## mward (Apr 7, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> People always miss that the importance of what Jeff has achieved is *design*. He's tweaked the frames, he's worked out the logistics, the only difference is he's getting someone else to stick 10 of the things together.


You say this because this is your business model. For you to not support it would cause cognitive dissonance. In the world of goods, you are a guy who put a pretty package on something someone else was already selling, charged more, and know that your position is precarious because if people figure out that they can get your product cheaper by going around you, you're obsolete. In this case I don't think that's going to happen because you're selling a hand-holding service. For every guy who is afraid to go custom because nobody is holding their hand, you're there. I have users that would love you: they're perfectly capable of doing a mail merge on their own, but they always want an IT guy there to hold their hand and make them feel warm and fuzzy inside. This is your business, you make people feel good about buying a custom bike. To me, you're an unnecessary middleman who makes things more expensive, but to the people out there that need that helping hand, you're indispensable.


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## b1umb0y (Feb 28, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Can I requote your last line with different emphasis?
> 
> Could I surmise you'd be even more excited about a Jones Jones if jeff had actually mined, extracted, refined and wrought the tubes with his bare hands?
> 
> PS: I hear he uses power tools too!


*Exactly!*

This is why you see more high quality framed prints of Rembrandt hanging on walls than the actual paintings themselves. :|

If *I* had the dough, *I* would do this in a second. *I* have to agree with Thylacine here... it is a smart move on JJ's part and *I* would be *ecstatic *to own a Merlin built Jeff Jones.

Is there a price difference between the two different types of JJB? (Not that it matters in *my* eyes.)

bb


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

pooka said:


> I wouldn´t be suprised if that turns out to be a stupid idea.


I was thinking that it could become a collector's item maybe ten or twenty years out. "This is one of only ten Jones frames built by Merlin."


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

pooka said:


> three pages of controversy about a product some of you compare to old paintings and not even a single crappy pic ...
> pics are all on his website...with him riding and testin it as well...and i believe he rode it at sea otter too...


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Well, clearly it's his business model too now, mward.

You gunna add him to the 'Mward Internet vendetta against people I don't know and know nothing about' list too?

If you do, can you do us a favour and do it in your head only? Because the rest of us want to discuss bikes and are so bored with your sh!t, it actually causes me to spontaneously fall asleep.


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## mward (Apr 7, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> If you do, can you do us a favour and do it in your head only? Because the rest of us want to discuss bikes and are so bored with your sh!t, it actually causes me to spontaneously fall asleep.


Ooohh... I have special powers. Apparently they only work on pompous *******s.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

mward said:


> You say this because this is your business model. For you to not support it would cause cognitive dissonance. In the world of goods, you are a guy who put a pretty package on something someone else was already selling, charged more, and know that your position is precarious because if people figure out that they can get your product cheaper by going around you, you're obsolete. In this case I don't think that's going to happen because you're selling a hand-holding service. For every guy who is afraid to go custom because nobody is holding their hand, you're there. I have users that would love you: they're perfectly capable of doing a mail merge on their own, but they always want an IT guy there to hold their hand and make them feel warm and fuzzy inside. This is your business, you make people feel good about buying a custom bike. To me, you're an unnecessary middleman who makes things more expensive, but to the people out there that need that helping hand, you're indispensable.


Hmmm... as a customer waiting on a frame from Thylacine I'd love to share my feelings on this. I definitely don't feel like I went to Warwick to have my hand held. I have trusted builders in the past to help me make decisions regarding fit and ended up with something that didn't pass the muster. With Warwick I felt I was able to actually work with him to arrive at a final design that could be passed on to a qualified builder. Could I have gotten the same bike straight from the builder? Maybe. Maybe I woulda ended up with another disappointment and more $$$'s and time down the drain. 
If you took the time to get to know where he comes from and his background in the industry you might find out he is a bit (alright, a lot) more than just a hand holding bike frame designer.
More expensive due to him being the middle man??? Last time I checked his frames are pretty spot on for what they are in the market.

I am first on his list when he starts selling $5500 frames. 

Since this thread is about the Jones:
If I had a million dollars.... yeah I'd buy a Jones. I would also buy an orangutan, so maybe I'm not very wise with my money to begin with.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I kinda look like an orang utan when I don't shave.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

I wanted to add this:
Obviously when you buy a Jones you are getting a unique item that is not attainable elsewhere. Nobody else is doing anything like.
When I felt it was time to get a custom frame this time around I decided that I couldn't deal with the crusty, mythical builder type who is full of ideas but short on meeting time lines and producing something right the first time. I needed a well built frame that I didn't have to wait 6 months to two years for. 
Some folks want to buy into that mystique. Some folks are OK holding their breath for a Chester, Jones, Vanilla, and what not. I prefer riding my bike, because after it's all said and done that's all it is.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> I kinda look like an orang utan when I don't shave.


Yeah, you got that orange hair thing going on. 
Jeff's kinda hairy too. 
Coincidence? 
I think not.
Must be a direct correlation between hairy people and bike frame controversy.


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## mud'n'sweat (Feb 16, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> You gunna add him to the 'Mward Internet vendetta against people I don't know and know nothing about' list too?


Warwick, I can certainly see how you would dismiss his comments so easily. It's hard for you to see the big picture here. mward is not in the minority, he is just one of the only vocal ones at the moment. I wouldn't call it a vendetta. It's more or less a reaction to the post and threads that are both annoying and humorous (no, not laughing with you) at the same time, yet most people politely bite their tongue and leave it be. At some point though, people are going to make some comments about their observations. Who knows what you are really like, but your tiring shameless self plugging and free advertising on this forum gets quite old to many on here. You have an extremely pompous attitude (at least that is how you come across) that has left many with a sour taste in their mouth. I'm not going to knock the fact that you are not a frame builder, but the fact that you have a larger ego and worse attitude then guys who have gobs more talent than you really shows you in a bad light. Consider this constructive feedback to help improve your business.

Anyways, I'm off to the woods for a the next day and a half to get in some riding. Finally got a break in the dreary spring weather of late.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I haven't heard the word 'pomous' used since 1872. 

Is that still big in Virginia?

Enjoy the ride and e-mail me or give me a call when you get back. Keen to know where you get some of your ideas from. Maybe we can swap mutual uninformed perceptions for reality.

On with the show.


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## 1strongone1 (Jan 13, 2004)

*Pics*

Here are some pics of the Jeff Jones/Merlin bike that Jeff sent me, as requested by some members. The bike can be ss only, geared only or both.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

1strongone1 said:


> Here are some pics of the Jeff Jones/Merlin bike that Jeff sent me, as requested by some members. The bike can be ss only, geared only or both.


I will never tire of the vision of Jeff Jones cruising through the air on his flying machine.
So cool (regardless of the stimulating arguments above/below).


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

1strongone1 said:


> Here are some pics of the Jeff Jones/Merlin bike that Jeff sent me, as requested by some members. The bike can be ss only, geared only or both.


Those and more can be found on the website. simply follow the link provided by the OP.


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Pic..*



dRjOn said:


> better have a look before they all get bought by british folk...
> 
> https://www.jonesbikes.com/update/runoften/index.html


.....................

<img src=https://www.jonesbikes.com/update/images/r10_0tn.jpg>​


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## jeeves (Mar 12, 2007)

The more I read, the more I think that this is a spectacular deal.  I can't imagine that these things lasted more than a day or two before being spoken for. 

Jeeves


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## Soupboy (Jan 13, 2004)

Wouldn't "Jones'in" be the more gooderer option?

Sure would be nice if JJ could work a Horst-link into his designs...



Nat said:


> Will the downtube stickers say "Jones," "Merlin," "Jones-Merlin," or "Merlin-Jones?"


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## mud'n'sweat (Feb 16, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> I haven't heard the word 'pomous' used since 1872.
> 
> Is that still big in Virginia?
> 
> ...


Excuse the *gasp* typo. Take it for what it's worth. It's tough to keep a business afloat with that sort of approach and attitude. Good luck.

Well, the car is packed and the bike is tuned. Off for a couple days of fun!


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

mud'n'sweat said:


> Warwick, I can certainly see how you would dismiss his comments so easily. It's hard for you to see the big picture here. mward is not in the minority, he is just one of the only vocal ones at the moment. I wouldn't call it a vendetta. It's more or less a reaction to the post and threads that are both annoying and humorous (no, not laughing with you) at the same time, yet most people politely bite their tongue and leave it be. At some point though, people are going to make some comments about their observations. Who knows what you are really like, but your tiring shameless self plugging and free advertising on this forum gets quite old to many on here. You have an extremely pompous attitude (at least that is how you come across) that has left many with a sour taste in their mouth. I'm not going to knock the fact that you are not a frame builder, but the fact that you have a larger ego and worse attitude then guys who have gobs more talent than you really shows you in a bad light. Consider this constructive feedback to help improve your business.
> 
> Anyways, I'm off to the woods for a the next day and a half to get in some riding. Finally got a break in the dreary spring weather of late.


Thank you for those words. Do you have a publisher?


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## goldinjohn (Oct 25, 2006)

*Poetry in motion,*

Some great stuff in this thread, some good reading some bad and some just plain funny  
one Jeff Jones make a production run of 10 (ten) bikes by Marlin, well let say i just came from another planet, i can learn from this thread something about Rembrandt driving a Rolls Roys with a fake but sign Jones bike on top.
i also can learn that the members of this forum are very emotional, easily ofended kind of people.
just kidding i did not come from another plant not for real, and i consider myself a member of this forum, but sometime KIDS i ask myself what about some proportions, what about diversity, freedom of speech and opinions ??? :nono: 
Jones make interesting bikes and as far i can remember everybody that own or ride one like them a lot.
Thylacine riders have only great things to say as well, and I personally like them far more then Jones biks. 
but this is me and this is you, let us all remember that what bring us all here is that we all bike nuts and as such have a lot in common so let's talk biks, let's have a little more respect for each other.
lets learn something from my personal hero "teamdicky" the man can ride but can also say things in a way it always sound positive (sorry dicky if i got you wrong).
and please do not compare any bike builder, fabricator, designer.... to Rembrandt this is pooshing it a little too far.

peace and love.


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## bigwheelboy_490 (Jan 2, 2003)

*Two things:*

1) Why are Walt and MikeSee so interesting in 14 year old employees?

2) I have this Jones for sale cheap... Make an offer..  (I pushed Moto off his bike riding last night and took it home with me). I'm trying to create a new market of stolen Jones bikes.


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## Soupboy (Jan 13, 2004)

I don't know what is more disturbing, the fact that Walt and Mike are *in* their employees or the fact that it makes you randy. 



bigwheelboy_490 said:


> 1) Why are Walt and MikeSee so interesting in 14 year old employees?


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## Go Kart Motzart (Jan 2, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> A custom frame is designed for an individual. IMO, the person who executes the design does not change the products custom nature. On the other hand, a stock frame is still stock even if it is created from start to finish by one person.
> 
> That is not to say that I don't care who executes the design, but I don't believe in magic. Design is subjective. Welds, less so.


I was about to type this exact same statement.

The guys at Merlin will miter and weld tubes together just like JJ (or any other builder) or anyone else would do. Nothing magic about it. Most of you given a little training and equipment could lay down some gorgeous beads on Ti.

Mikesee's right too. A bike can only be "tuned" so well. Jeff can't make a bike shift any better than I can. He can design some really cool bikes though.


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## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

Nat said:


> Will the downtube stickers say "Jones," "Merlin," "Jones-Merlin," or "Merlin-Jones?"
> 
> Or maybe "Meones?"
> 
> ...


I would have thought "Jonesin" might have been an apropos term.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

jpre said:


> I would have thought "Jonesin" might have been an apropos term.


Ringa ding ding!!! 
We have a winner!!!


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Is it still named "One" or are they "One-of-Ten," "Two-of Ten," etc.?

I'd want one named Seven-of-Nine.


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## tozovr (Jul 26, 2006)

Just J said:


> Jeff sent me the pdf announcing this a week or two ago, not sure but I think I'd rather wait and have Jeff build it for me, although obviously I have nothing against Merlin, if I was wanting a Merlin then fine but I want a Jones!...


Or if you wanted a Jones, not a Merlin but got a Litespeed....

Litespeed and Merlin just leave a crappy taste in my mouth by the way the whole thing went down years ago in Mass. Not cool.


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## GlowBoy (Jan 3, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I would imagine that they're all sold already. It's a very good price and the quality will be amazing.


I don't doubt the quality or the value one bit. But given Jeff's attention to detail and his obvious desire to have the most completely satisfied customer, I suspect he has a narrow definition of "proper fit." So the number of people he would consider to fit this one-size properly is probably a small fraction of the number of people interested in his bikes. That's all.

Then again, given the number of people interested in his bikes, maybe 10 of them will still sell pretty fast! I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


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## Phoinix (Jan 15, 2007)

*Don't be hating*

Why is it so many people are upset or angry about how someone runs his own business. People act like they know what is best for JJ and his company. Obviously there are many things JJ could do to make his business larger and more profitable. Is that what he wants??? I don't know any more than you do. If you don't like the way he does business then don't buy. It is his comapny and he can do what he wants with it. Just because you may not like what he is doing with it doesn't give you the right to tell him how he should run it. Why be hating???


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

Phoinix said:


> Why is it so many people are upset or angry about how someone runs his own business. People act like they know what is best for JJ and his company. Obviously there are many things JJ could do to make his business larger and more profitable. Is that what he wants??? I don't know any more than you do. If you don't like the way he does business then don't buy. It is his comapny and he can do what he wants with it. Just because you may not like what he is doing with it doesn't give you the right to tell him how he should run it. Why be hating???


I don't think any of us on here are "hating".

This discussion has been .. with a couple of exceptions, a mostly friendly one, and that's a good thing, imo.

Back on topic....

My point is that if Jeff Jones builds a frame with his own two hands and places his name on it, then it is a genuine Jones frame.

If he farms the frame out to someone else to build, then it isn't a genuine Jeff Jones frame any more.

It is designed and maybe 'tweaked' by JJ, but it isn't built by him. Is this concept so hard to understand?

The value is in the man himself, in his skill, his hands on method of building the frame.

If I went to Eriksen, James at Blacksheep, Walt or whichever frame builder and ordered a frame, I would expect that it would be made totally by the person I commissioned to do it....not given to another builder to do the work.

If you go out and pay for a genuine article, whether it be a painting, frame or whatever it is, you expect to get the genuine article, not one which has been made by someone else and then had the designers name affixed to it as his own work.

This is the point. The design and theory is pure Jeff Jones ..... which is great, but the building is by Merlin, not Jeff Jones. Jones design, Merlin built.

Not hard to understand at all, imo.

A frame builder uses tubing manufactured in a plant somewhere in the world just like a painter uses paints manufactured somewhere in the world to make or create a unique object or article that he did himself with his own hands and skill. He signs his own name on it and it is recognised as his own work. That is what makes it valuable.

If this same person gives it to someone else to do for him, is it still his? Nope...it's not.

It may be his design and his ideas, but it is NOT his work...and that is my point.

A frame built by Merlin isn't a Jeff Jones frame. It is a Jeff Jones design, built by Merlin.

R.


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## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

Phoinix - I don't think any of us are hating. We just have opinions of what WE think. Everyone agrees JJ is a great designer / builder. This is a forum for thoughts, not hate....
Best of luck to JJ, he's been in the biz a long time and knows whats best for him AND his bikes.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Everyone perfectly understands what you're saying Rainman.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Everyone perfectly understands what you're saying Rainman.


 I hope so Warwick....sometimes I feel like i'm not getting through to people...maybe it's ... oldtimers disease...lol..

Anyways... back to work for me.

R.


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## rryyddeerr (Oct 4, 2005)

you know, i bet when this idea was hatched, jeff made ten phone calls, scratched ten names off his list, and cracked open a yet-to-come can of worms for everybody to get a whiff.


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## joeadnan (Oct 21, 2003)

1strongone1 said:


> Here are some pics of the Jeff Jones/Merlin bike that Jeff sent me, as requested by some members. The bike can be ss only, geared only or both.


Nice bike (understatement). But how can it be BOTH SS and geared?


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## John Jencks (Jan 8, 2007)

A lot of very interesting reading here, especially for me as (as far as I have read) I am the only person around here buying one of these at the moment.

The two points I am going to add are:

1) I'm not buying this bike because it has Jeff's name on the tubes. As I said previously I once owned a Merlin that had Vandermark sticker on one of the tubes. Did that make the bike more of a Merlin than the ones, now that (I believe have) a Kellog sticker? Personally, I don't care. If I rode it through the trees and it made my face smile and my heart sing, it could have any letter of the alphabet in any order on any tube.

2) I have a lot of reasons to buy this bike, too many and too complex to write coherently about here (and I'm never at my most coherent typing into a computer), but the main one seems to be, for whatever reason, there is something about Jeff that I trust. I don't know where this comes from. Is it is because the H-Bar has made more of a difference to me than any other component I've ever bought? Is it because in talking to him, he seems clear and direct? Is it because I'm a fool whose about to buy an incredibly expensive out sized clothes hanger? Maybe all of these things. If your on the fence about buying one, speak to the man himself and make your own mind up, but be careful about having people make your mind up for you, or attempting to make up other people's mind for them.

As an open invitation, I live in London UK, if once the bike arrives anyone would like to come and ride it, your welcome to do so, although I may have to hold something as colateral incase you were to run off with it, your first born should suffice.

If, on the other hand, anyone would like to come and laugh / point / abuse a guy riding one of these bikes, I ride in Epping Forrest at least once a week and fairly frequently in South West Scotland. There's nothing that makes me crank harder than a little ridicule.

As an aside, my step sister gave me some Weasel Coffee for Christmas which is from Vietnam. The Weasels pick and eat the coffee beans to aid their digestion then they puke it up. These coffee beans are then roasted, ground and turned into coffee in the normal way. It is only produced in small amounts, is quite labour intensive and pretty darn expensive. To me, the only coffee I've ever tasted that was similar was some sort of flavoured blend from a Dunkin Doughnuts at Boston Airport.
People do some strange things in this funny old world.


P.S. It can be both SS and Geared by having an EBB and replaceable Mech Hanger.


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## tozovr (Jul 26, 2006)

John Jencks said:


> A lot of very interesting reading here, especially for me as (as far as I have read) I am the only person around here buying one of these at the moment.
> 
> The two points I am going to add are:
> 
> ...


I can honestly say that if it tasted like Dunkin Donuts from Logan, you might want to regift that...


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## 1strongone1 (Jan 13, 2004)

joeadnan said:


> Nice bike (understatement). But how can it be BOTH SS and geared?


Well, it can't be both at the same time (great observation), but with a little converting it can go either way.


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## bigwheelboy_490 (Jan 2, 2003)

Rainman said:


> My point is that if Jeff Jones builds a frame with his own two hands and places his name on it, then it is a genuine Jones frame.
> 
> If he farms the frame out to someone else to build, then it isn't a genuine Jeff Jones frame any more.


Cannot agree there. The reason for buying any particular bike is because you buy into their design philosophy.

Using your logic, if JJ decided to hire a welder to work in his personal shop, and produce the frames while he designed them, it would no longer be a Jones.

If I bought a Seven because I bought into the design philosophy, and could appreciate the production quality of the welders, would it still be a seven if that welder left the company?

I wonder how many production bikes are really just Giants then?


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## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

Rainman said:


> A frame built by Merlin isn't a Jeff Jones frame. It is a Jeff Jones design, built by Merlin. R.


I agree with RM 100% and know exactly what he means, a JJ built by someone else is not a JJ.

However, just to play the Devil's advocate, I'd bet that if you put the Merlin JJ against a real JJ side by side (labels removed) it'd be impossible to tell the difference, and they'd probably ride exactly the same (assuming the sizes were identical). So whoever gets a Merlin JJ will still have a bike that rides the same and looks the same, but it won't be a JJ.

That being said, I still wouldn't buy one, the h-bars never worked for me and the bikes are a bit too outre even for me, this coming from a rider with a Matt Chester designed (Black Sheep built) drop bar goofy looking bike.

Hey, I guess I really am riding a Matt Chester frame&#8230;.but it's&#8230;er...built by James...a Matt Chester/Black Sheep!?
RC


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## motoman711 (May 7, 2004)

*My bike is not a true Jeff Jones bike!*

I am sad to say that the value of my frame went down considerably since this thread started. I am afraid that Jeff did not do all of the work on my frame!

As you can see, from the attached photo, Jeff sub-contracted part of the construction!

By this logic I guess if Jeff hired an apprentice to help with welding then it would no longer be a 'Jeff Jones' frame.

Ridiculous.


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## John Jencks (Jan 8, 2007)

bigwheelboy_490 said:


> If I bought a Seven because I bought into the design philosophy, and could appreciate the production quality of the welders, would it still be a seven if that welder left the company?


This is a reasonably apt part of the discussion for me as I was considering a Seven frame a couple of months ago, especially as I had loved my Vandermark era Merlin. However in speaking to Seven on the phone and their representative in the UK, something didn't feel right and I decided to not go with them, thereby losing a £100 deposit, but I'd prefer to do that than having a frame that wasn't right for me.

This is not to knock Seven, I think they build a wonderful bicycle, in as much as they are not the perfect builders for me, I am not the perfect client for them.

P.S. Have grow beard since owning Merlin.


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

...wow! This thread is an armwrestling match between naivete & ignorance. I wonder who will win 

PS. I'd like me one of them coathangers, in _either _arrangement


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

Just so you know, I think Salvado Dali did produce some of his own paints - he did a few paintings with his own feces.....does that make them better?

I honestly don't understand the mystical powers that so many people place in framebuilders. They are people, just like us. They eat, sleep, **** and put on their pants one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.

There are a lot of very small nuances in the design of a bicycle frame, and each and every builder out there has his/her unique signature. A builder's philosophy on bicycles and how he thinks they should ride will very much determine what he suggests for head/seat tube angles, tt lengths, bb heights, bar/seat height, tubing choice, butt length/placement, etc. Mitering tubes isn't rocket science guys. It simply takes and eye for detail and some knowledge of the product. I mitered every one of the tubes on my Badger on Rob's mill (or by hand with Rob's files). We were obviously working together, and he showed me things to do to make it easier, or so that it got done the way it needed to be done, but it doesn't take a 200 I.Q. to cut and miter frame tubing. Same thing with bending tubes. Hat to break it to you, but it just takes practice. I left all the brazing to Rob, because that's a pretty crucial part, and I simply don't have much time on a torch (yet!). 

I reamed my own seatpost and tapped my own bottom bracket - does that mean it's not a 'real' Badger?

Jeff's a great builder, but let's take him off this mythical pedestal. The guys at Merlin work with ti all the time. They know how to do the high-end stuff. 

I can also understand why Jeff is doing the end work himself. It's the least time-consuming part of a custom bike, but it's also the very last chance for him to look the bike over before it goes out the door with his signature on it. An average frame takes probably 6-10 hours to build (soup to nuts). A Jones build is probably closer to 40 hours. Hanging the components is what, 2 hours at most? That's not much time, relative to the frame construction. He's just pushed 10 bikes out the door in +/-3 days of his labor, instead of 10-11 weeks of his labor. Sounds smart to me. When he installs all the components, he will end up taking a closer look at all the parts of the frame.

I don't understand why there are 5 pages in this stupid thread, but I guess I just helped perpetuate it....


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## jbogner (Jul 3, 2004)

Do you expect Tom Ford to hand-sew every couture dress he designs? 

Is an Apple computer still an Apple if it's actually manufactured by a subcontractor in Asia?

Is a building actually a Frank Gehry building if actual construction is done by a contractor?

Great design is worth a premium price, no matter who the actual construction is performed by.


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## bigwheelboy_490 (Jan 2, 2003)

jncarpenter said:


> ...wow! This thread is an armwrestling match between naivete & ignorance. I wonder who will win
> 
> PS. I'd like me one of them coathangers, in _either _arrangement


So.. you are basically calling a lot of the posters on this thread ignorant because they stand by their convictions? Regardless of the opinion of the various posters, your post was completely uncalled for.


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## WTB-rider (Jul 25, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> If I had a million dollars.... yeah I'd buy a Jones. I would also buy an orangutan, so maybe I'm not very wise with my money to begin with.


Thanks Dicky, I just sprayed beer all over my monitor and a freshly painted wall.:lol: :crazy:


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

bigwheelboy_490 said:


> ...your post was completely uncalled for.


...au contraire! I think it was quite called for. An opinion is not morphed into fact simply by the amount of conviction that it is held with....is it? Unbunch your panties....ignorance is simply defined by a lack of knowledge, there is clearly _plenty _of that going on in this thread. Or perhaps you care to enlighten us with your preponderance of insight in these matters?


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## bigwheelboy_490 (Jan 2, 2003)

I have posted my opinions several times through out this thread. Have you?

Thank you for your kind correspondence and reference to my bunched panties. Your concern is quite endearing.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

mikesee said:


> No comment on the $9600 part. None.
> 
> But this (lifted from the Jones website) is what boggles me:
> _*All will be assembled, tested and tuned by Jeff.*_
> ...


marketing. pure and simple marketing. merlin is afraid guys who buy Jones need to have the "jones experience", "jones touch" or whatever in order to open their wallets. 
it's part of his deal w/ merlin to do so. 
comparing a bike tune up w/ the work of mark rothko is plain ridiculous.
bicycles are about good design and smart marketing. the art connection some do w/jones is delusional BS.


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

bigwheelboy_490 said:


> Have you?


...let me remind you:

"*I'd like me one of them coathangers, in either arrangement*"

...my apologies if I damaged your seemingly frail emotions.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Rainman said:


> If I wanted a Jones, [and I do!] I would want it built by Jeff himself from the ground up.
> 
> I can understand why he is doing this, but for me, the magic is in the frame builder himself, not in Merlin.
> 
> ...


why? in the end it's a machine designed by Jones w/ the same qualities as his hands on work. it will ride the same maybe w/ better welds. it makes no difference. you will be paying $5000 more to talk on the phone w/ jones and post about the whole thing here. there is no logic behind this. it reinforces the snobbish aspect of the custom frame thing instead of the design, research and quality. it's silly.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> Hmmm... as a customer waiting on a frame from Thylacine I'd love to share my feelings on this. I definitely don't feel like I went to Warwick to have my hand held. I have trusted builders in the past to help me make decisions regarding fit and ended up with something that didn't pass the muster. With Warwick I felt I was able to actually work with him to arrive at a final design that could be passed on to a qualified builder. Could I have gotten the same bike straight from the builder? Maybe. Maybe I woulda ended up with another disappointment and more $$$'s and time down the drain.
> If you took the time to get to know where he comes from and his background in the industry you might find out he is a bit (alright, a lot) more than just a hand holding bike frame designer.
> More expensive due to him being the middle man??? Last time I checked his frames are pretty spot on for what they are in the market.
> 
> ...


an orangutan is a bad investment.:thumbsup: 
a orangutan would be easily convinced to trade his rembrandt on a jones bike.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

colker1 said:


> why? in the end it's a machine designed by Jones w/ the same qualities as his hands on work. it will ride the same maybe w/ better welds. it makes no difference. you will be paying $5000 more to talk on the phone w/ jones and post about the whole thing here. there is no logic behind this. it reinforces the snobbish aspect of the custom frame thing instead of the design, research and quality. it's silly.


 It may seem to be silly to you and to others who's opinions differ, but to me, it's ohh so simple.

A bike can be more than an arrangement of tubes and components.

If I am in the market for a genuine picasso I don't want to buy a copy, I want to buy the 'real thing'.
Not something painted by someone else with picasso's name stuck on it. That has no value to me or to any real art dealer.

Same with Jeff's frame. If I want a genuine JJ frame, I don't go and buy a frame built by Joe Bloggs with the Jones name stuck on it.

I buy a JJ built frame that has been put together from the bare tubes by the hands of Jeff himself. That's a genuine Jeff Jones frame...and that's what I value.

Am I 'silly' for wanting this? Some may think so. However, that's the way I think about things like this.

I've made my point, given my opinion...that's it for me.

I'm going for a ride...  :thumbsup:

R.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Rainman said:


> It may seem to be silly to you and to others who's opinions differ, but to me, it's ohh so simple.
> 
> A bike can be more than an arrangement of tubes and components.
> 
> ...


a bicycle= a picasso. yeah right.. a svcker is born every minute.
darwin was wrong, there is no evolution.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Well, ya know, just even postin on this thread is selling Jones more bikes, so being the pompous self promoter that I clearly am, let's sell some Jones instead, shall we?
> 
> This is the way I see it : People buy a Jones because of the design, and the mysticism of a beared guy living in the woods crankin out frames like a wizard.
> 
> ...


jones design is brilliant. his fan club.. not so much.


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## mward (Apr 7, 2004)

Rainman said:


> If I am in the market for a genuine picasso I don't want to buy a copy, I want to buy the 'real thing'.
> Not something painted by someone else with picasso's name stuck on it. That has no value to me or to any real art dealer.


That's the difference between mass produced goods and ART. All this hinges on whether or not you consider what JJ does, art. I dunno, I don't think it's art, but that's me. If it's art, then the guy making it is important, if it's just a thing, then it doesn't. It's obvious opinions differ in this area, and trying to hash out what is art and what isn't definitely is a subject to avoid with a group like this. 

Now this is art.

http://www.artnotart.com/fluxus/skubota-vaginapainting.html

or something.


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## biff (Jul 16, 2004)

_merlin is afraid guys who buy Jones need to have the "jones experience", "jones touch" or whatever in order to open their wallets. it's part of his deal w/ merlin to do so. _

No offence intended here, and totally concentrating on the facts - you heard this "Merlin is afraid" from Merlin staff? Jeff makes no mention of any _deal_ on his website - I read it as an arrangement for Merlin to build some frames for him. If it's your speculation then fine but I'd appreciate the clarification. Thanks.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

mward said:


> That's the difference between mass produced goods and ART. All this hinges on whether or not you consider what JJ does, art. I dunno, I don't think it's art, but that's me. If it's art, then the guy making it is important, if it's just a thing, then it doesn't. It's obvious opinions differ in this area, and trying to hash out what is art and what isn't definitely is a subject to avoid with a group like this.
> 
> Now this is art.
> 
> ...


it's a finely crafted handmade bicycle. merlin can do a nice welding. jones can do a good design. all the rest is delusional.a bicycle is a machine. art (or ART as you call it) is something different. 
if you need to justify the price tag go ahead but anyone that buys art won't buy a bicycle instead. you obviously are not into buying painting.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

biff said:


> _merlin is afraid guys who buy Jones need to have the "jones experience", "jones touch" or whatever in order to open their wallets. it's part of his deal w/ merlin to do so. _
> 
> No offence intended here, and totally concentrating on the facts - you heard this "Merlin is afraid" from Merlin staff? Jeff makes no mention of any _deal_ on his website - I read it as an arrangement for Merlin to build some frames for him. If it's your speculation then fine but I'd appreciate the clarification. Thanks.


of course it's my opinion. did i say it was an official document?
i say it's marketing. part of selling bikes. merlin has been playing the "ultimate" card, the snobbery appeal for quite some time. nothing wrong w/that. there is a clientele for that kind of stuff as seen here.


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## Phoinix (Jan 15, 2007)

*Ooops. Sorry guys*

My "hatin" remark didn't come off the way I intended. It sounded better in my head than on paper. Ultimatley JJ is not decieving anyone. He is straight forward about how the bikes are built. There may be some semantics as to the wording of things but if you take 5 minutes and look through his web site you will see who is making and designing the bike. If you don't like it then don't buy it. BTW JJ does IMHO "interesting" designs but I feel there are other great welders out there as well. I would venture to say there are others as good at welding if not even better than him (although I am no great judge).


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

biff said:


> It ain't going to help any of you over there perhaps, but for anyone in the UK, or passing through, I'm more than happy to have people ride my Jones. All the (most considered) 'this 'n' that' and 'looks funny' are really insignificant - the ride is everything and I'd like more people to experience it for themselves. I guess Jeff would too.


his design is brilliant and very much to my liking: short top tube, low BB, low center of gravity, short chainstays and most impportantly.. shallow head angle w/ the apropriate rake fork. it should ROCK the woods.


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## biff (Jul 16, 2004)

*colker1* - thanks for the clarification.


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## ozlongboarder (Jan 12, 2004)

How do these 10 frames give JJ more time to create new designs?

If there is 180 guys on the wait list he needs to convince the first 10 or so to buy these Merlin built bikes if he wants more free time. Its no use if the last 10 buy these bikes is it? 

All it seems he is doing is testing the waters with this batch to see if his customers will allow him to outsource part of his production process. No harm in that. 

Only problem is if its a one size fits all only deal for guys who want a custom frame. If every frame has geometry specific to each buyer and the price is cheaper than a Jeff built bike why not get one.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Rainman said:


> I don't think any of us on here are "hating".
> 
> This discussion has been .. with a couple of exceptions, a mostly friendly one, and that's a good thing, imo.
> 
> ...


let me ask you something: when you read a book do you expect the author to personally print his words on every page? no cause it's an intelectual job. 
designing bikes is an intelectual job.
when you buy a JOnes you are buying his design, his inteligence. not a welder's work. 
you are missing a lot w/ your vision. did ugo derosa personaly welded his bikes? no. but he fit eddy merckx on a couple of them. 
did chris chance welded every yo eddy? did keith bontrager? scot nicol? 
there are basically 2 steps in bicycle frame building: design and weld. in case of custom jobs: fitting, design and weld. 
weld has very little to do w/design.


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## jbogner (Jul 3, 2004)

The funny thing is that art really isn't different or more special, it's just that "artists" have, over the past two millenia, marketed themselves thusly. Art "speaks" to its audience and creates a value for itself in the same way that a bike does, although bikes are a far more utilitarian object than a painting hanging on your wall. But I digress.

Personally, while I'd love to own a $100,000+ original painting from a modern master artist, it's beyond my budget and reach. There's nothing wrong with owning a limited edition lithograph produced in a small edition by the artist in conjunction with a master printmaker, and it's no less "art." Go try to buy a 60's era lithograph from Lichtenstein, Rauschenberg, Rosenquist, etc, and you'll find that they've appreciated in value significantly- some fetching over 100x their original asking price, and museums collect them for their "art" collections, despite the fact that they were executed in collaboration with a master craftsman, and not by the artist alone.

Is there more value to an oil painting than a lithograph? For something that appreciates rather than depreciating, yes. But bikes don't rise in value... not even Jones bikes. For that reason alone, I'd buy the production Jones, and save the extra however much I'd have spent on getting one built by the man himself, and buy myself a few paintings from a young and talented local artist. Of course, if I was one of those money-is-no-object Hedge Fund manager types, I'd have tripled Jones' regular asking price already to bump my frame to the front of the line.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

jncarpenter said:


> ...wow! This thread is an armwrestling match between naivete & ignorance. I wonder who will win


So which one is you? 

Thanks for weighing in, Colker1. Finally nice to have someone from the 21st century contributing.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

jbogner said:


> The funny thing is that art really isn't different or more special, it's just that "artists" have, over the past two millenia, marketed themselves thusly. Art "speaks" to its audience and creates a value for itself in the same way that a bike does, although bikes are a far more utilitarian object than a painting hanging on your wall. But I digress.
> 
> Personally, while I'd love to own a $100,000+ original painting from a modern master artist, it's beyond my budget and reach. There's nothing wrong with owning a limited edition lithograph produced in a small edition by the artist in conjunction with a master printmaker, and it's no less "art." Go try to buy a 60's era lithograph from Lichtenstein, Rauschenberg, Rosenquist, etc, and you'll find that they've appreciated in value significantly- some fetching over 100x their original asking price, and museums collect them for their "art" collections, despite the fact that they were executed in collaboration with a master craftsman, and not by the artist alone.
> 
> Is there more value to an oil painting than a lithograph? For something that appreciates rather than depreciating, yes. But bikes don't rise in value... not even Jones bikes. For that reason alone, I'd buy the production Jones, and save the extra however much I'd have spent on getting one built by the man himself, and buy myself a few paintings from a young and talented local artist. Of course, if I was one of those money-is-no-object Hedge Fund manager types, I'd have tripled Jones' regular asking price already to bump my frame to the front of the line.


art is no more special than a jones. a jones could be more special even but it's different. very. one has no function other than describing living experience the other is about moving gracefully over two wheels using your legs as power.
actually the artist part changed dramatically every century. the first one to become rich and in control of his work was picasso. one century before picasso you did what you were told: paint the church ceiling, paint my wife, paint this or that. before picasso most artists were poor. 
nowadays art became intelectual but it's still about form and describing life.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

ozlongboarder said:


> How do these 10 frames give JJ more time to create new designs?


Hey Oz, I could be wrong but I think Jeff takes about a month to build a bike. So 10 Merlins could possibly give Jeff 10 months of design, ride, and family time. I think he's smart.


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## ozlongboarder (Jan 12, 2004)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Hey Oz, I could be wrong but I think Jeff takes about a month to build a bike. So 10 Merlins could possibly give Jeff 10 months of design, ride, and family time. I think he's smart.


Exactly, but only if guys high up on the list take these bikes. If the first 20 guys still went JJ built bikes he is not going to get any free time in the near future.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

ozlongboarder said:


> Exactly, but only if guys high up on the list take these bikes. If the first 20 guys still went JJ built bikes he is not going to get any free time in the near future.


That's true too. But if I was high up on the list, I wouldn't be getting a Merlin.


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## fire horse (Mar 9, 2004)

*Geesh, at that $ the bike begs to be copied by any of the*

easy to come by Chinese Ti fabricators. You can custom order what every Ti frame you want as long as you send them the specs or a photo w/ the appropriate tube lengths and angles...for a fraction of the price.

Don't believe me? Just go to the folks that make the Habanero, Spicer, etc frames.

I'm not totally letting the cat out of the bag. All I'm saying is DANG, the $$$ sticker shock has got to stop!


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Buying a custom frame is more than just buying a bunch of tubes stuck together by some guy. You're buying his experience, his skill, his ability to give you what you need. You enter into a relationahip with the builder. I buy a custom bike it had better be built by the guy that I commissioned to build it because I place as much value on him doing the work as I do the end result. I buy a stock bike, even a short run like what Jeff has going on here, I don't care who built it.

Someone mentioned gestalt and that's what it is to me. I don't want some Milli Vanilli BS. I want the real deal. The total package. Copies, replicas, prints, whatever you want to call it, there is only one original and when you're buying a custom bike, that's what you're getting - the original.


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## fire horse (Mar 9, 2004)

*but...at the price of a car?*

I know what I've written an article on but, still...where does the price ceiling end?

Does a relationship w a framebuilder..dare i say at that price point...an AFFAIR have to cost that much? Because if so...YOU ARE GETTING SCREWED!

If you are in the market for a high end bike, you should be self educated enough to know what head tube, seat tube angles work best for your type of riding. Tube length isn't exactly rocket science either.

Heck, if you wanted to take the easy route, throw you leg over your best bike or get a fit test and there you have most of what u need to know for dimensions. Or get fitted for a bike and test drive a few models at your best LBS. For most folks, heck...even most serious racers..this will do very well.

Im all for custom frames but like i said...where does the out of this world pricing have an end? As long as ther are wanna-bes with deep pockets, those suckers are going to keep driving the cost of things like custom Ti bikes up n up for the rest of us.

Ti tubing goes for about $5/ foot last I checked. Of couse add to that processing, cutting, welding, etc and in my book...it still dont add up to 5k to 10 K for a FREEKIN >>BIKE!

Does DeSalvo, Kish, Black Sheep, Dean, Seven, or anyone else charge these rates? Even with....ohhh...curvy tubing and a truss fork?

Point made.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

fire horse said:


> I know what I've written an article on but, still...where does the price ceiling end?
> 
> Does a relationship w a framebuilder..dare i say at that price point...an AFFAIR have to cost that much? Because if so...YOU ARE GETTING SCREWED!
> 
> ...


No disrespect Kimosabe, but your point would be a lot better made if you knew what the hell you were talking about. You want a bike built by the lowest bidding Chinese manufacturer? Do a search on this forum for the results.

Ti tubing cost a lot more than $5 a foot. Try $40+ per foot for a mid size like a 1.25". 1.75" DT? Try $50 a foot. Pair of Ti stays? $150+. Add in all the time to build the bike and manipulate the tubes, plus a little profit for the builder to live on... Savvy the burrito?


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## Brutal Cycles (Feb 16, 2007)

fire horse said:


> I know what I've written an article on but, still...where does the price ceiling end?


There is no ceiling. If you're willing to pay an artist and a craftsman to do top quality work and a hell of a lot of it, your bill is going to reflect it. When we do this work, we're not gouging you, we're just charging what it really costs to handbuild a decent one-off product. It has nothing to do with a relationship. The "savings" you get by being a cheapskate comes out of your hide (and everyones) sooner or later. There are no free lunches. You get what you pay for, and you pay for what you get. No way around it. You think a Jones is expensive? Go down to your local industrial park, find a metal shop with the resources to build one, and ask them how much they'd charge to make you a copy from the same materials, at the same accuracy and level of quality.

It's simply a bike that strives to attain a certain level of the artists vision of perfection. Builders like Jeff, DWF and others are just that serious about bikes, and as it happens, so are quite a few enthusiasts, who value their work. You may not be that serious about bikes. You may value cars more. That's just fine.

If you knew what went into making a car, you'd wonder why they cost more than any high end bike. If a car were made using the same grade of materials and craftsmanship as a custom Seven, Jones, Calfee, etc... their cost would be more in line with aircraft. In an american made bike, you're getting a hell of a lot more value than in an american made automobile.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Hey, I'm still waiting for those Moonhead cranks dude.

Oh yeah, and the campy 10 speed shifters!


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## biff (Jul 16, 2004)

_5k to 10 K for a FREEKIN >>BIKE!_

It fascinates me that this exclamation crops up on cycling forums. I can easily understand it when non-cyclists are amazed/disgusted/amused/horrified that people are prepared to spend thousands of pounds/dollars on a bike but find it odd in a forum for cyclists. As I cyclist I can understand why people want to spend as much as they have (and haven't!) on bikes and save my amazement for people spending thousands (often tens of thousands) on property, *cars*, clothes, furniture, jewellery, watches and the like. I seem to remember there was a previous topic where it was suggested _excessive_ cycle purchases should be accompanied by a charitable donation. Each to their own I guess?! I love bikes. In my opinion there are dafter/worse things to spend your money on.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

*agreed*

It fascinates me .....

and me. 
it keep you fit.
it lets you see the world.
you can race. or just ride...
spend time on your own. or with friends and strangers.
work angst out your system.
commute.
get messages.
and if you keep the bikes for awhile to offset the production pollution its so, so much better than motorised transport.

money well spent...


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

*sooth sayer*



Brutal Cycles said:


> There is no ceiling. If you're willing to pay an artist and a craftsman to do top quality work and a hell of a lot of it, your bill is going to reflect it. When we do this work, we're not gouging you, we're just charging what it really costs to handbuild a decent one-off product. It has nothing to do with a relationship. The "savings" you get by being a cheapskate comes out of your hide (and everyones) sooner or later. There are no free lunches. You get what you pay for, and you pay for what you get. No way around it. You think a Jones is expensive? Go down to your local industrial park, find a metal shop with the resources to build one, and ask them how much they'd charge to make you a copy from the same materials, at the same accuracy and level of quality.
> 
> It's simply a bike that strives to attain a certain level of the artists vision of perfection. Builders like Jeff, DWF and others are just that serious about bikes, and as it happens, so are quite a few enthusiasts, who value their work. You may not be that serious about bikes. You may value cars more. That's just fine.
> 
> If you knew what went into making a car, you'd wonder why they cost more than any high end bike. If a car were made using the same grade of materials and craftsmanship as a custom Seven, Jones, Calfee, etc... their cost would be more in line with aircraft. In an american made bike, you're getting a hell of a lot more value than in an american made automobile.


absolutely.


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## biff (Jul 16, 2004)

And I have to learn how these multi-threaded topics work on this here forum :O)


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

fire horse said:


> I know what I've written an article on but, still...where does the price ceiling end?
> 
> Does a relationship w a framebuilder..dare i say at that price point...an AFFAIR have to cost that much? Because if so...YOU ARE GETTING SCREWED!
> 
> ...


What kind of car are you buying for $5K-$10K? Maybe high-end custom Ti bikes aren't really in this income bracket.


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## pooka (Jul 16, 2006)

jbogner said:


> Do you expect Tom Ford to hand-sew every couture dress he designs?
> 
> Is an Apple computer still an Apple if it's actually manufactured by a subcontractor in Asia?
> 
> ...


well spoken, but it needs one modification imho.

Great design is worth a premium price, but the worth of a bikeframe, as well as of a Frank Gery building and a lot more also reflects its usability. So it is the responsibility of the designer to take care that his design is going to realize to a thing of use by workers doing their work (for example welding) at the quality the design asks for.

I think JJ found responsible partners in outsourcing production to Merlin. So no problem either


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## Brutal Cycles (Feb 16, 2007)

Thylacine said:


> Hey, I'm still waiting for those Moonhead cranks dude.
> 
> Oh yeah, and the campy 10 speed shifters!




Finally working on em again! Got a new bb system which is really exciting. Does everything. The cranks need to be redesigned around it.

The shifters may just turn into something simpler. Those trigger units were pretty obscene on the mill. $700 shifters.

Got a new fork I've mostly been working on. Should have a test batch together soon. Shooting for 2008 being a big year.


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## jeeves (Mar 12, 2007)

biff said:


> And I have to learn how these multi-threaded topics work on this here forum :O)


You and me both, bro. This thread is a bear to follow.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

DWF said:


> Buying a custom frame is more than just buying a bunch of tubes stuck together by some guy. You're buying his experience, his skill, his ability to give you what you need. You enter into a relationahip with the builder. I buy a custom bike it had better be built by the guy that I commissioned to build it because I place as much value on him doing the work as I do the end result. I buy a stock bike, even a short run like what Jeff has going on here, I don't care who built it.
> 
> Someone mentioned gestalt and that's what it is to me. I don't want some Milli Vanilli BS. I want the real deal. The total package. Copies, replicas, prints, whatever you want to call it, there is only one original and when you're buying a custom bike, that's what you're getting - the original.


i know.. you miss the love affair if you buy the merlin. though if you already have a GF it would not be noticeable.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

DWF said:


> No disrespect Kimosabe, but your point would be a lot better made if you knew what the hell you were talking about. You want a bike built by the lowest bidding Chinese manufacturer? Do a search on this forum for the results.
> 
> Ti tubing cost a lot more than $5 a foot. Try $40+ per foot for a mid size like a 1.25". 1.75" DT? Try $50 a foot. Pair of Ti stays? $150+. Add in all the time to build the bike and manipulate the tubes, plus a little profit for the builder to live on... Savvy the burrito?


JJ is not going to modify his DESIGN depending on your body dimensions. all this custom fit deal is mostly baloney if you ask me.
unless you are a physical freak you can fit a stock bike. period.
what JJ gives you is a ride concept: weight centered on the rear wheel, short wheelbase, low bb.. a woods bike. 
if you want it buy something that more or less fits you. yes... more or less fits you. it makes no difference if the guy who welds your bike knows the length of your inner leg.
heavy cycling cultures give much less bruhaha about custom frames than the US where cycling is still in it's infancy.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

jeeves said:


> You and me both, bro. This thread is a bear to follow.


I thought bears were easy to follow.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Brutal Cycles said:


> There is no ceiling. If you're willing to pay an artist and a craftsman to do top quality work and a hell of a lot of it, your bill is going to reflect it. When we do this work, we're not gouging you, we're just charging what it really costs to handbuild a decent one-off product. It has nothing to do with a relationship. The "savings" you get by being a cheapskate comes out of your hide (and everyones) sooner or later. There are no free lunches. You get what you pay for, and you pay for what you get. No way around it. You think a Jones is expensive? Go down to your local industrial park, find a metal shop with the resources to build one, and ask them how much they'd charge to make you a copy from the same materials, at the same accuracy and level of quality.
> 
> It's simply a bike that strives to attain a certain level of the artists vision of perfection. Builders like Jeff, DWF and others are just that serious about bikes, and as it happens, so are quite a few enthusiasts, who value their work. You may not be that serious about bikes. You may value cars more. That's just fine.
> 
> If you knew what went into making a car, you'd wonder why they cost more than any high end bike. If a car were made using the same grade of materials and craftsmanship as a custom Seven, Jones, Calfee, etc... their cost would be more in line with aircraft. In an american made bike, you're getting a hell of a lot more value than in an american made automobile.


so pete.. is the merlin a REAL jones or you would wait to be personally fit and pay twice for a similar size frame? 
i agree up to a certain point. if i want a cheap bike i will buy a surly and no way in hell a chinese builder will bend ti like JJ. they could but it could also break in 3 mo.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

colker1 said:


> JJ is not going to modify his DESIGN depending on your body dimensions. all this custom fit deal is mostly baloney if you ask me.
> unless you are a physical freak you can fit a stock bike. period.
> what JJ gives you is a ride concept: weight centered on the rear wheel, short wheelbase, low bb.. a woods bike.
> if you want it buy something that more or less fits you. yes... more or less fits you. it makes no difference if the guy who welds your bike knows the length of your inner leg.
> heavy cycling cultures give much less bruhaha about custom frames than the US where cycling is still in it's infancy.


He's obviously not going to modify the stock bikes, one size only. But do you really believe he doesn't modify the dimensions on his customs to fit the rider? There is a design philosophy and there is fit. Those two are meshed, but one does not cancel the other. If you stick to one set of dimensions for every rider, you're not achieving your design philosophy.

Yes, you can fit a stock bike, but at what cost? I'll grant you that MTB fit is not as critical as road fit since you tend to be more dynamic on the bike, but, if you want to achieve your design philosophy, you need to juggle the variables to achieve it for each rider....man, I'm having deja vu...here is something I wrote on this subject years ago.

As far as your comment about cycling culture, no, the vast cycling public doesn't care about custom fit or made to measure frames but avid cyclist are really not a part of that group are we? Anybody who spends a LOT of time on a bike is, or should be, interested in proper fit and that is universal, US, Europe, anywhere. Just look at all the bruhaha over Boonen's bike lately. It's like having a pair of shoes that don't quite fit. Sure, you can wear to walk to work, but your goldfish stripper boots are going to feel like azz at the end of a long day.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

DWF said:


> He's obviously not going to modify the stock bikes, one size only. But do you really believe he doesn't modify the dimensions on his customs to fit the rider? There is a design philosophy and there is fit. Those two are meshed, but one does not cancel the other. If you stick to one set of dimensions for every rider, you're not achieving your design philosophy.
> 
> Yes, you can fit a stock bike, but at what cost? I'll grant you that MTB fit is not as critical as road fit since you tend to be more dynamic on the bike, but, if you want to achieve your design philosophy, you need to juggle the variables to achieve it for each rider....man, I'm having deja vu...here is something I wrote on this subject years ago.
> 
> As far as your comment about cycling culture, no, the vast cycling public doesn't care about custom fit or made to measure frames but avid cyclist are really not a part of that group are we? Anybody who spends a LOT of time on a bike is, or should be, interested in proper fit and that is universal, US, Europe, anywhere. Just look at all the bruhaha over Boonen's bike lately. It's like having a pair of shoes that don't quite fit. Sure, you can wear to walk to work, but your goldfish stripper boots are going to feel like azz at the end of a long day.


in europe where cycling is as popular as baseball and everybody rides their road bikes you don't see that custom fit frenzy. 
i won't say it doesn't matter( that's why i said MOSTLY balloney) but i value design over custom fit any day. i rather ride a yeti, a fat chance, an ibis mojo, a slasa a la carte than a custom made by someone with no design philophy. why? because i want certain ride qualities and the designers differentiate their bikes by them. 
the one size only w/the jones/merlin is hard to swallow but give me 4 sizes and i fit his bikes on mostly everyone. btw.. i don't fit well certain brands but i manage..


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

colk, it's not a woods bike, not at least how I have known them to be for the last decade or so. The low BB negates it. Check out specs for Grove Innovations, EWR, Spooky, and Smorgasbord. IMO, those were among the original woods bikes, designed for riding highly technical trails. If someone gets to ride a Jones around State College, please let us know how many crank strikes you had.

fire horse - if you know where to source ti tubing for $4 a foot, let me know. The only tubing I've found for $4/ft is 1/4" or 3/8". I'm not willing to use the amount of welding wire it would take to construct a structurally sound frame with that tubing. Costs would easily exceed those of more typical tube diameters just in weld wire alone. If you want to educate yourself so you can write something with fact behind it, check out the ti tubing store at bikeschool.com for a better idea of what ti tubing costs in the current marketplace.

I'll say it again. Good on Jeff. The guy made a niche for himself and people are eating it up. Who cares what they cost and who cares if he's outsourcing a small run. If people are willing to pay the price, good for them. He's probably one of the few framebuilders who's actually charging what he should for his bikes. 

All you people who are shocked by the price...what would you consider to be a fair salary for a builder?


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

colker1 said:


> ... and no way in hell a chinese builder will bend ti like JJ. they could but it could also break in 3 mo.


what the hell? ANYONE could bend ti like JJ. You can too with this http://www.jd2.com/ and the appropriate die for 7/8" tubing.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

smudge said:


> colk, it's not a woods bike, not at least how I have known them to be for the last decade or so. The low BB negates it. Check out specs for Grove Innovations, EWR, Spooky, and Smorgasbord. IMO, those were among the original woods bikes, designed for riding highly technical trails. If someone gets to ride a Jones around State College, please let us know how many crank strikes you had.


the videos on JJ site show a fast, technical woods riding. more fast than technical.. you are right.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

smudge said:


> what the hell? ANYONE could bend ti like JJ. You can too with this http://www.jd2.com/ and the appropriate die for 7/8" tubing.


i thought of those chinese ti forks that are ligtht, pretty and always brake.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

colker1 said:


> i thought of those chinese ti forks that are ligtht, pretty and always brake.


I guess they would simultaneously brake and break. I don't think it has to be Chinese for that to happen, but I see your point. I'm sure there's no shortage of breakages for American builders. In fact, I repaired a crack in an american built ti frame just last week.


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## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

colker1 - Have you been to bike shop in Europe? You can walk into frame builders shops and get custom just like we walk into the LBS to buy a stock bike. At the shops in Italy, they size you up by eye and THEN they bring out the tapes to get it as exact as possible. They've been riding and building so much longer than we have that they understand the dynamics of bike fit better than we do.

And yes, I believe that JJ's custom frames are custom, not some stock measurement that fits MOST everybody for a given height.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

smudge said:


> I guess they would simultaneously brake and break. I don't think it has to be Chinese for that to happen, but I see your point. I'm sure there's no shortage of breakages for American builders. In fact, I repaired a crack in an american built ti frame just last week.


btw i have no problemo w/ the $$$. bikes are still cheap compared to the rest of our cost of living and bring us immense happyness. it costs what it costs. pomy up, pay and be happy. or buy a surly and be happy as well.
i just don't get the artistic bruhaha. it almost downgrades the engineering brilliance that goes w/ bike building.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

azjonboy said:


> colker1 - Have you been to bike shop in Europe? You can walk into frame builders shops and get custom just like we walk into the LBS to buy a stock bike. At the shops in Italy, they size you up by eye and THEN they bring out the tapes to get it as exact as possible. They've been riding and building so much longer than we have that they understand the dynamics of bike fit better than we do.
> 
> And yes, I believe that JJ's custom frames are custom, not some stock measurement that fits MOST everybody for a given height.


they are all riding their colnagos, pinarellos, merckx, time, look and giants. at least in france and italy .ritchey had it right: one need sizes to chose from. the euros do their roadies in 1cm increments. ritchey did in 1in increments.

problem is american builders size their lines w/ 1.5 in diff. between them. that's not enough. hence the custom FOR SOME SPECIAL CASES. next custom became better than anything from the rack and it just ain't true.


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## GlowBoy (Jan 3, 2004)

Nat said:


> fire horse said:
> 
> 
> > but...at the price of a car? ... YOU ARE GETTING SCREWED!
> ...


Hey, maybe they are! I don't think I'm _at all_ unusual on this board in owning a FS bike that is worth more than my car. If that can be true at $3k, why not at $5k-10k? And anyway, I think the point you're making is that there are tons of people on this board driving cars considerably more expensive than $5-10k, so what's the big deal about a $5k-10k bike?

Consider: The average new car now costs $26k. The average American family spends about $10k _per year_ on transportation. Most of the new SUVs I see on the roads around me start out _depreciating_ more than $5k per year.

That someone willing to spend those sums might also spend $5k on a frame that will certainly hold its value (not that the owners care)... well, doesn't strike me that anyone's getting screwed. The market obviously supports it, and Jeff's bikes are pretty special. More power to him.


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## Ligero (Sep 8, 2005)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Hey Oz, I could be wrong but I think Jeff takes about a month to build a bike.


Why does it take a month for him to build a bike?


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Ligero said:


> Why does it take a month for him to build a bike?


I don't know, maybe he doesn't take that long. That seems to be what I've gathered though.

Why does it take other builders 8 + weeks? :eekster:


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## Ligero (Sep 8, 2005)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> I don't know, maybe he doesn't take that long. That seems to be what I've gathered though.
> 
> Why does it take other builders 8 + weeks? :eekster:


The reason I asked is because I too have heard that he only builds one bike a month. I can't understand what would take so long on the frame that it would take 3 weeks to build.

Other frame builders don't take 8 weeks to build the frame, they only take a day or two once they get to it.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

Maybe they have supply line troubles. Perhaps the two pairs of Paul's canti brakes they ordered a month ago haven't arrived or even been charged to their account. Or maybe the 1/4" tubing ordered over 5 weeks ago hasn't been shipped yet. Maybe Paragon Machine Works was out of stock of EBB shells and 35mm seat tube reinforcers for well over a month and the builder had his hands tied. 

I can't speak for other builders, but ti isn't cheap stuff and it's pretty easy to tie up a huge chunk of change to keep a good stock of framebuilding components, so some people don't. Sometimes the suppliers run out, sometimes communication sucks, sometimes you can't turn a special head tube because FSP didn't apply enough postage to that huge hunk o' ti you bought from him in eBay  . 

There are a lot of outside factors. But once the stars align, it shouldn't take more than a few days.


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## Juan Speeder (Jan 13, 2005)

Ligero said:


> The reason I asked is because I too have heard that he only builds one bike a month. I can't understand what would take so long on the frame that it would take 3 weeks to build.
> 
> Other frame builders don't take 8 weeks to build the frame, they only take a day or two once they get to it.


A Richard Sachs road bike has 35 hours in it, and all the tubes are straight :/

How long would it take you to build a Jones-esque frame (assuming you have the skills and knowhow)?

If you don't have the skills and knowhow, how can you judge how long it should take?


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

Juan Speeder said:


> A Richard Sachs road bike has 35 hours in it, and all the tubes are straight :/
> 
> How long would it take you to build a Jones-esque frame (assuming you have the skills and knowhow)?
> 
> If you don't have the skills and knowhow, how can you judge how long it should take?


A RS frame also has a lot of lug filing. Not much filing on a ti bike save for taking off burrs after mitering the tubes.


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## Ligero (Sep 8, 2005)

Juan Speeder said:


> A Richard Sachs road bike has 35 hours in it, and all the tubes are straight :/
> 
> How long would it take you to build a Jones-esque frame (assuming you have the skills and knowhow)?
> 
> If you don't have the skills and knowhow, how can you judge how long it should take?


That is the thing, I do have the knowhow. I worked for ABG (parent company of Merlin) and so I know how long it takes to bend tubes, miter tubes, weld tubes, alignment and put a nice brushed finish on the frame. In the custom shop at ABG (there is a separate shop for custom Litespeed/Merlin frames) one guy could build a frame from start to finish in less then a day. It very rarely would take more then 2 days and that includes bending and forming chainstays, forming and shaping tubes, mitering tubes, fitting, tacking, welding and then aligning.


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## motoman711 (May 7, 2004)

This is silly. Nobody ever said that JJ was the fastest builder in the west. He also has a company to run, H-Bars to build, Daughters to take to school, lawns to mow and Emails to respond to while he is building a frame. I think it took 1.5 months from the point at which we said 'go' to when he was actually finished with the frame and fork. The fork actually took as long as the frame as it is nearly as complex.

What is with all of the armchair bike building, business running anyway? It is nice out. Go ride. That is what I am gonna do.


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## fire horse (Mar 9, 2004)

*looks like you are used to paying a lot more for things...*

here is a quote from my supplier:

B. Titanium tubing(100% seamless): 
a. unalloyed titanium tubing(ASTM Grade 2ure titanium) 
diameter:3mm to 110mm length:500mm to 6000mm 
wall thickness:0.75mm to 4.5mm 
unit price: XI'AN USD69.00/KG

b. Titanium alloy tubing(ASTM Grade 9:Ti3Al-2.5V) 
diameter:3mm to 110mm length:500mm to 6000mm 
wall thickness:0.75mm to 4.5mm 
unit price: FOB XI'AN USD79.00/kg

C. Titanium strip(unalloyed titanium ASTM grade 2): 
Thickness:0.03mm to 0.80mm width:50mm to 400mm 
length:500mm to 1000mm 
unit price: FOB XI'AN USD99.00/KG

if a Ti frame weighs in at 4 lbs then,

4 pounds divided by 2.2 = 1.8 kilograms

1.8 kg total weight of the tubing used X the most expensive stuff I can get...drum roll please...$178 US (plus shipping, taxes, tariffs, bank fees,, etc

DUDE...do the math! 5-10K for a bike is a sucker pricing!

instead of just one company, JJ trying to make bank off of these bikes, you have two (Merlin)..so common sense should make u suspicious.


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## fire horse (Mar 9, 2004)

*too freekin much, sucker pricing!*

here is a quote from my supplier:

B. Titanium tubing(100% seamless):
a. unalloyed titanium tubing(ASTM Grade 2pure titanium)
diameter:3mm to 110mm length:500mm to 6000mm
wall thickness:0.75mm to 4.5mm
unit price: XI'AN USD69.00/KG

b. Titanium alloy tubing(ASTM Grade 9:Ti3Al-2.5V)
diameter:3mm to 110mm length:500mm to 6000mm
wall thickness:0.75mm to 4.5mm
unit price: FOB XI'AN USD79.00/kg

C. Titanium strip(unalloyed titanium ASTM grade 2):
Thickness:0.03mm to 0.80mm width:50mm to 400mm
length:500mm to 1000mm
unit price: FOB XI'AN USD99.00/KG

if a Ti frame weighs in at 4 lbs then,

4 pounds divided by 2.2 = 1.8 kilograms

1.8 kg total weight of the tubing used X the most expensive stuff I can get...drum roll please...$178 US (plus shipping, taxes, tariffs, bank fees,, etc)

do the math! 5-10K for a bike is a sucker pricing!

instead of just one company, JJ trying to make bank off of these bikes, you have two (Merlin)..so common sense should make u suspicious.

the bling pricing has gone way way tooo far!

instead, use your money to get a penis implant and impress yourself even more.

or better yet...donate it to a worthy cause.
__________________


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

When I bought this new(old) house/shop, I said to the auctioneer "Are you kidding me! That place is made from bricks! Bricks are made from dirt! Dude, have you SEEN how abundant that stuff is? U R just tryin' to get teh richerz!"

So I offered him 25 bucks and a used shovel.


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## collideous (Jul 1, 2006)

fire horse said:


> 1.8 kg total weight of the tubing used X the most expensive stuff I can get...drum roll please...$178 US (plus shipping, taxes, tariffs, bank fees,, etc)


Those $178 don't include the pipe clamps you'll need from your local hardware store to finish your bike project in the living room.


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

What's the month salary for a good metal worker, rent of a full-service workshop, and required insurances? Add one of each to a frameset as complicated as a Jones


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

collideous said:


> Those $178 don't include the pipe clamps you'll need from your local hardware store to finish your bike project in the living room.


You could make it even cheaper by using a roll of duct tape instead of those blingy clamps.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

fire horse said:


> instead of just one company, JJ trying to make bank off of these bikes, you have two (Merlin)..so common sense should make u suspicious.


yes. buy something else.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

fire horse said:


> here is a quote from my supplier:
> 
> B. Titanium tubing(100% seamless):
> a. unalloyed titanium tubing(ASTM Grade 2pure titanium)
> ...


Your logic is astounding!

Why am I not surprised your supplier is the world's cheapest Chinese Ti? You understand that the Changda Ti is the equivalent of a Huffy, right?

Seriously, are you a custom framebuilder? Ever run a business building custom frames? Know any custom framebuilders? Know any custom framebuilders making huge bank?

If you answered "no" to any of those questions, common sense would tell you that you wasted your money on the whole penis implant idea.


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## fire horse (Mar 9, 2004)

*see this is y i dont waste my time much any more posting...*



DWF said:


> Your logic is astounding!
> 
> Why am I not surprised your supplier is the world's cheapest Chinese Ti? You understand that the Changda Ti is the equivalent of a Huffy, right?
> 
> ...


the pricing is to just demonstrate that the earlier quoted price of $150/foot is total BS.

Ti is Ti, it's not like steel where you can shortcut quality. and most all of it comes form China or Russia. two pillars of human rights, environmental progressiveness and transparent business practices...not!

ya, you can add in all of the above mentioned costs and attempt to justify what ever price you want. soo yeaa go ahead, if you want your fav frame builder to make huge bank, go ahead and b a sucker.

its a free market system. do what u will. I suggest that maybe first you go to some third world country, or hey better yet your local "hood" first. talk to some kids there that need shoes, dental work, or maybe even...a Huffy to get around and maybe have some fun before you lay down what most of us working class folks would consider big bank for a....bike.

i think the feeling of gratification from that will have more of a lasting effect than buying some bike that you will tire of within a few years.

you dont have to be advertising your wares to be a custom frame builder. maybe some of us have done the math and calculated in time taken away from riding, family, friends, etc and said...naww it aint worth it.

my point is..5-10K for a frame is rediciolus and if you buy one, you are a compensating sucker.

IM DONE!


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

fire horse said:


> my point is..5-10K for a frame is rediciolus and if you buy one, you are a compensating sucker.


That is great! Attack everyone that has a different view than you. Call them names while you are at it. How does that attitude work with meeting people?



fire horse said:


> IM DONE!


Good. I love reading opinions, but the declaration that a person is "compensating" simply because they see things in a different way and reach different conclusions than you -- seems...Pompous and arrogant. That seems ironic!


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

fire horse said:


> the pricing is to just demonstrate that the earlier quoted price of $150/foot is total BS.
> 
> Ti is Ti, it's not like steel where you can shortcut quality. and most all of it comes form China or Russia. two pillars of human rights, environmental progressiveness and transparent business practices...not!
> 
> ...


Did someone say $150/ft? Does your Changda ti come with certs? Has it gone through the testing to get them? All ti isn't good ti. If you're cool buying cheap stuff that falls below spec and selling it to someone, good for you. I hope your liability insurance is paid up.

Pimping a chain lube that has been "100% handmade from recycled and renewable plant sources" and buying titanium from a country with such a stellar human rights record seems to be a bit of a conflict of interest to me.

Besides, people will pay what they think is fair. You obviously don't think one of Jeff's frames is worth what he's asking for it and you'll never be one of his customers. I'm sure he and everyone else is fine with that. At least the money is being spent on a bike.

With your awesome ti source and mad fabricating skills, why don't you turn your focus on cornering the custom frame market rather than belittling those who would buy your wares. Better yet, use your mad skills to make highly sought after frames and use the profits to pay for Huffy's and dental visits for your neighborhood kids.


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## Brutal Cycles (Feb 16, 2007)

colker1 said:


> so pete.. is the merlin a REAL jones


Nah Colk. It's a Merlin. A Merlin-produced Jones design, which will be cool and unique in its own way.

That ninny posting about how one can buy a pound of CP ti for less than a built bike is right, he is done. Those last couple posts were pretty much the nail in that coffin.

Sean, I hope you're not telling me it didn't get delivered again!

Don, expect a big frightening email as soon as I find your addy.

The big, heavy gears of progress are slowly starting to turn over here again.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

fire horse said:


> I know what I've written an article on but, still...where does the price ceiling end?
> 
> Does a relationship w a framebuilder..dare i say at that price point...an AFFAIR have to cost that much? Because if so...YOU ARE GETTING SCREWED!
> 
> ...


1. If you do not want to pay the price you do not have to buy one.

2. A bike of this type is more directly comparable to a car costing well over $100,000. A $300-400 bike is still better quality than a $10,000-12,000 new car.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

fire horse said:


> the pricing is to just demonstrate that the earlier quoted price of $150/foot is total BS.
> 
> Ti is Ti, it's not like steel where you can shortcut quality. and most all of it comes form China or Russia. two pillars of human rights, environmental progressiveness and transparent business practices...not!
> 
> ...


Doood, discussing this with you reminds me of Sportsman's signature, "Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time."


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

DWF said:


> He's obviously not going to modify the stock bikes, one size only. But do you really believe he doesn't modify the dimensions on his customs to fit the rider? There is a design philosophy and there is fit. Those two are meshed, but one does not cancel the other. If you stick to one set of dimensions for every rider, you're not achieving your design philosophy.
> 
> Yes, you can fit a stock bike, but at what cost? I'll grant you that MTB fit is not as critical as road fit since you tend to be more dynamic on the bike, but, if you want to achieve your design philosophy, you need to juggle the variables to achieve it for each rider....man, I'm having deja vu...here is something I wrote on this subject years ago.
> 
> As far as your comment about cycling culture, no, the vast cycling public doesn't care about custom fit or made to measure frames but avid cyclist are really not a part of that group are we? Anybody who spends a LOT of time on a bike is, or should be, interested in proper fit and that is universal, US, Europe, anywhere. Just look at all the bruhaha over Boonen's bike lately. It's like having a pair of shoes that don't quite fit. Sure, you can wear to walk to work, but your goldfish stripper boots are going to feel like azz at the end of a long day.


you asked (on another post) what would be a fair salary for a builder. i kept thinking about it and realized the problem w/jones bikes is he is playing well both sides of it.
on one hand he designed something brilliant. his ideas are not only original by make much more sense if built expensively: titanium. his supple, light, tight bike can't be copied and give the same ride. it won't.
otoh, he is a whimsical artisan. he takes 1mo to build a bike. and he charges enough as if he was selling ten biikes. he works less, plays more and there is still interest in his work cause it's unique.. and good.
20yrs ago guys w/ideas became small cottage industries: Fat, Ibis, Salsa, Mountain Goat. their bikes cost 10x less. all was good. except their companies broke. and they suffered. 
seems jones is staying away from that path. he works alone, no paychecks to balance, no "good morning boss.. waht are doing today. bye boss.. keep working till ten figuring out how to sell what we did". jones has the cake and eats it too at the expense of who wants his frames.
not even sachs charges as much as him.
jones was lucky the 29ers came and there was a geometry puzzle to sort it out. he is talented. the right guy at the right place. a smart, good designer who does his own building. he is not picasso.
if it wasn't for 29ers he would have a much harder time competing in the arena cause there are tons of different and excelent 26ers around. more power to him.


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## jeeves (Mar 12, 2007)

What an interesting and multi-faceted discussion! Seriously - it's cool to see what sorts of topics this bike has brought up. Let's cut to the chase - who here is getting one?


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## Brutal Cycles (Feb 16, 2007)

colker1 said:


> not even sachs charges as much as him...


Hahaha... If Richard built in ti, he certainly would.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

colker1 said:


> you asked (on another post) what would be a fair salary for a builder. i kept thinking about it and realized the problem w/jones bikes is he is playing well both sides of it.
> on one hand he designed something brilliant. his ideas are not only original by make much more sense if built expensively: titanium. his supple, light, tight bike can't be copied and give the same ride. it won't.
> otoh, he is a whimsical artisan. he takes 1mo to build a bike. and he charges enough as if he was selling ten biikes. he works less, plays more and there is still interest in his work cause it's unique.. and good.
> 20yrs ago guys w/ideas became small cottage industries: Fat, Ibis, Salsa, Mountain Goat. their bikes cost 10x less. all was good. except their companies broke. and they suffered.
> ...


It was me who asked the question, thanks for addressing it, albeit in a sideways manner. Don has his own opinions (that he has shared often) that I happen to agree with 100%. I also agree with what you just wrote.

Jeff has put a design into a context people can identify with. He's executed it nicely and I applaud him for it. His first style reminds me of a Pedersen and the second iteration is 90% similar to a stock trials bike I saw about a decade ago (can't recall the name, I think the builder was Romanian). I don't know whether or not he borrowed from prior designs and frankly, it doesn't matter to me.

Good on him for differentiating himself from the current marketplace and creating objects of desire.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

colker1 said:


> you asked (on another post) what would be a fair salary for a builder. i kept thinking about it and realized the problem w/jones bikes is he is playing well both sides of it.
> on one hand he designed something brilliant. his ideas are not only original by make much more sense if built expensively: titanium. his supple, light, tight bike can't be copied and give the same ride. it won't.
> otoh, he is a whimsical artisan. he takes 1mo to build a bike. and he charges enough as if he was selling ten biikes. he works less, plays more and there is still interest in his work cause it's unique.. and good.
> 20yrs ago guys w/ideas became small cottage industries: Fat, Ibis, Salsa, Mountain Goat. their bikes cost 10x less. all was good. except they broke. and suffered.
> ...


I know I've been impatient & grumpy in this thread; my main man in my biz got himself hurt and won't be able to work for a couple months. All the extra time I'm putting in might be affecting my usual sweet & charming nature. 

Your last post found some fresh meat on this dead carcass and you bring some points I'd like to explore further a little later. Don't have time right now, but in the 1980's, do you know what a Mtn. Goat Deluxe frame cost? $1950. That's about $6-700 more than most custom steel builders are charging today....something to think about. Sustainability is my biggest concern for builder's. More later.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

DWF said:


> I know I've been impatient & grumpy in this thread; my main man in my biz got himself hurt and won't be able to work for a couple months. All the extra time I'm putting in might be affecting my usual sweet & charming nature.
> 
> Your last post found some fresh meat on this dead carcass and you bring some points I'd like to explore further a little later. Don't have time right now, but in the 1980's, do you know what a Mtn. Goat Deluxe frame cost? $1950. That's about $6-700 more than most custom steel builders are charging today....something to think about. Sustainability is my biggest concern for builder's. More later.


Based on Social Security COLAs that Mtn Goat would be over $3500 today.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

DWF said:


> I know I've been impatient & grumpy in this thread; my main man in my biz got himself hurt and won't be able to work for a couple months. All the extra time I'm putting in might be affecting my usual sweet & charming nature.
> 
> Your last post found some fresh meat on this dead carcass and you bring some points I'd like to explore further a little later. Don't have time right now, but in the 1980's, do you know what a Mtn. Goat Deluxe frame cost? $1950. That's about $6-700 more than most custom steel builders are charging today....something to think about. Sustainability is my biggest concern for builder's. More later.


i bought many many bikes in the last 15yrs in an effort to avoid spending on the right one. always thinking i was being smart.. in the end i spent 3x more. now i search ebay for that bike i rationalized not to buy it.


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## Brutal Cycles (Feb 16, 2007)

shiggy said:


> Based on Social Security COLAs that Mtn Goat would be over $3500 today.


Hm. Thinking about it, if you wanted to make one today the way they made em back then, it actually might be.


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

*Seems to me an argument can be made that Jones =*

the new Cunningham. If you have to ask, you don't really want it pricing and an interest in design/fabbing prototypes/tinkering over building.

His bikes have held their value, his cache is intact. No wonder someone is taking a page from his book.

I wonder if Cunningham hadn't been a part of WTB (who licenced to Suntour, remember?), and lived soley as a framebuilder, if he'd have gone to, say, Klein or American for a stock frame build.


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## Jeromelo (Feb 11, 2006)

I'm a bit confused. After being entertained by this thread I checked out Jeff Jones website. He sells his space frame - frame, fork, headset, seatpost and binder for $5500.00 I don't understand this talk about him having to build, tune and ride all of his bikes if he is selling just the frame, fork, headset, seatpost and binder for $5500.00

What am I missing here?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

mainlyfats said:


> the new Cunningham. If you have to ask, you don't really want it pricing and an interest in design/fabbing prototypes/tinkering over building.
> 
> His bikes have held their value, his cache is intact. No wonder someone is taking a page from his book.
> 
> I wonder if Cunningham hadn't been a part of WTB (who licenced to Suntour, remember?), and lived soley as a framebuilder, if he'd have gone to, say, Klein or American for a stock frame build.


I seriously doubt it. He could've easily mass produced his bikes, or even done a Doug Bradbury, but didn't.

JJ is being a shrewd businessman. Heck, I know that flies in the fact of everyone thinking he's some recluse that conjures up magic, but it's a good move.

He keeps his image, and the bikes get better, get more efficiently made, and have more profit margin.

AND he still gets retains the cache from the boffins that think "That's not a real Jones".

Genius.


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## dr.wierd (Aug 10, 2007)

I'm pretty sure that fork design is from really old (40's) motorbikes.

Sorry, I'm taking this thread off topic..carry on!


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