# Milk...Do I Really Need it?



## XCProphet (Aug 23, 2005)

Is the regular or no fat milk preferred before a ride? 

How about the almond milk?

I'm assuming the body prefers low or no fat foods.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Do you have a weight problem? Are you lactose intolerant?

If no, then drink whole milk.

If you need to control calories then switch to low- or no fat. The body needs some dietary fat.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

i'd skip milk before, and pound it afterward. if i drink much beforehand, i burp a lot.


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## XCProphet (Aug 23, 2005)

Bill in Houston said:


> i'd skip milk before, and pound it afterward. if i drink much beforehand, i burp a lot.


Thanks, Yeah, not that I'm lactose intolerant but I figured there'd be some side affects drinking it beforehand, I burp as it is with water possibly from swallowing air & water while I ride.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

No. You never need cow milk. No one does. I like almond milk, soy if I have to, never tried rice milk.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

ha, ha, noone ever needs almond, soy, or rice milk either. i knew this thread would end up here.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Haha, I know you don't need those milks either but they're better for you and a decent substitute if you must have a milk like drink.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

You do not need to drink milk.


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## Barn Barn (Apr 3, 2012)

Vanilla almond milk because it taste great, and makes a good protein shake also.


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## CharleyGnarlyP290 (Apr 26, 2010)

Almond milk all the way... and your body DOES need fat. Low and non-fat stuff is horrible for you.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

monzie said:


> No. You never need cow milk. No one does. I like almond milk, soy if I have to, never tried rice milk.


This. Humans are the only animals that drink milk after adolescence. If you need dairy, drink some kefir or eat some yogurt.

Almond milk is awesome for smoothies, so is rice milk or soy milk. Soy tends to be fattier.

Your body needs fat, vitamins and minerals bond to fatty oils and make them easier to digest and enter your system. You can get good fatty oils from coconut oil, nut butter (do better than peanut butter, try almond, cashew, or sunflower seed butter), avocado, etc.

It's really good to mix a tablespoon of nut butter and coconut oil in with your protein shakes. The fatty oils help the nutrients get into your system more efficiently on the back end and the oils also give the powder something to bind to in your drink so you get less chalky/powdery texture.


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## Trail Addict (Nov 20, 2011)

I just drink either almond milk or soy milk. MUCH more healthy than cow milk!!!


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## RedBen (Nov 4, 2010)

What is your purpose here? Are you looking for a protein boost before a ride?


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## ltk1144 (Dec 16, 2011)

Milk before a ride? Sounds like the worst thing possible too me, it will give you cramps like nothing else.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Trail Addict said:


> I just drink either almond milk or soy milk. MUCH more healthy than cow milk!!!


It is true humans are the only mammals that drink milk as an adult. We also are the only mammals that eat foods imported from other regions of the world, have a year around selection of a wide variety of foods, the only animal that cooks their food, and converts plants into milk substitutes. Because we have a choice and the technology.

Human milk would be preferred, but as adults it is rather hard to come by. So cow and goat milk are common substitutes. By careful selective breeding cow milk is actually closer in composition to human milk than it was a century ago, but it is still not a perfect replacement.

Many adults cannot digest milk. Our genes are programmed to turn off production of the lactase enzyme sometime after puberty, so lactose intolerance is common in adults. Also common is a genetic mutation that does NOT turn off lactase so those with the mutation are able to consume milk all their lives. I am one of those lucky people. Others just have the lactase enzyme production reduced, so they can still drink milk in reduced amounts if they are careful.

Milk is considered one of the most nutrient dense of foods. It is not only a protein source, but also an excellent source of calcium, magnesium, B vitamins, and carbs. All in the ideal ratios. As you may or may not be aware, nutrients do not work alone in the body, they work in synergy with other nutrients, and optimum function comes when the nutrients are in proper ratios to each other (which is why supplements seldom work - they deliver massive amounts of a single nutrient without the corresponding synergists). Real foods have the proper ratios, our bodies evolved to need the nutrient amounts, combinations, and ratios found in nature. Processed foods usually do not. The milk substitutes are by definition processed foods.

Public health specialists were puzzled in recent years by the increase in the U.S. of the disease called Kwashiorkor - relatively common in third world countries and historically rare in the U.S. It is a protein deficiency. After many studies one of the contributing factors was identified as the increase of soy, rice and almond milk by children. Although these milk substitutes have adequate protein by previous understandings of nutrition, they lack the enzymes found in animal milk. Switch the kids back to real milk and the disease went away. Since then, the various manufacturers began fortifying their milk substitutes with additives to make it more like real milk. High protein consumption also spill calcium and magnesium in the urine (read: bone density loss). These minerals are found in milk, so the ca/mg loss is counteracted. To be fair with all inclusion, the increase of soda pop and processed fruit juices were also identified as contributing factors to kwashiorkor. (Ignore the wild claims about trans-fat and HFCS - soda pop, especially colas, is the real 'poison' in the American diet, even those with real sugar).

So you can get by without drinking cow or goat milk. Drink the milk substitutes, take a calcium and magnesium supplement, add some store bought whey protein powder, eat lots of cruciferous vegetables (not a bad idea anyway), and you will be OK. Or you can throw a glass or two of real milk into your daily diet a lot cheaper and a lot easier.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

dave54 said:


> It is true humans are the only mammals that drink milk as an adult. We also are the only mammals ...


We are also the only mammals that RIDE BIKES. Woo hoo!


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## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

Well said.


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## ArmySlowRdr (Dec 19, 2003)

Can't remember the last time I've had milk. It tastes vile and nasty to me. I do like Ice cream though.

Rarely drink plain water either.

Coke Zero, a smooth root-beer, or red bull are my drinks of choice....


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## bikeriderguy (May 2, 2006)

For many years I led an unhealthy lifestyle of poor diet and lack of exercise. Six years ago I discovered mtnbiking and every year since has been a progression of better fitness,diet and lifestyle. Over the last 2 yearsa I've significantly increased my time in the gym and on the bike and I find myself drinking more and more milk. It's great fuel. Also as has been documented many times its a perfect recovery drink. I have a nice big glass of chocolate milk post ride and I swear it has made a difference in my bodies ability to recover.


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## Kawigreen99 (Oct 9, 2011)

Raw, organic milk is healthy. Otherwise, it's absolutely disgusting stuff.


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## mrbigisbudgood (Apr 4, 2011)

“Milk is for babies. When you grow up you have to drink beer.” Arnold Schwarzenegger in Pumping Iron


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## JDM (May 2, 2008)

I drink raw (whole) milk from the farm down the road. It's good for ME. I'm not sure what is good for you.


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## Wolfhausen (Jan 31, 2012)

Drink chocolate milk. Helps with muscle recovery and taste good. Stay away from the soy milk.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

*yes.*



Wolfhausen said:


> Drink chocolate milk. Helps with muscle recovery and taste good. Stay away from the soy milk.


A growing body of medical literature suggests men should limit their soy consumption. No problems reported for women, just men.


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## hazardousmtb (Sep 26, 2011)

i have not physically drank milk since i was about 10. im 24, i hate the taste of milk. the only time i have milk is if its mixed with something like ice cream. if i have cereal i literally pour my milk out of my spoon between each bite. i really should drill a hole in my spoons -_-


anyways. it is my personal opinion that u do not need milk because i am healthy. granted, i eat tons of cheese


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## hazardousmtb (Sep 26, 2011)

now, you take my gf who drinks almond milk, soy milk, regular milk and she is also about as healthy as i am


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

who said anything about taking your girlfriend? that is just wrong. we would not do that.


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

Yeah, don't do Dairy at home at all!! (I do eat eggs at home, which most people think ARE Dairy, but they are not)-----I drink Silk 'Unsweetened Vanilla' Almond Milk at home for the Calcium.. 

But when I eat out (burgers, Philly Cheesesteaks in 'Philly' I always get Xtra Cheese------)


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## hazardousmtb (Sep 26, 2011)

Bill in Houston said:


> who said anything about taking your girlfriend? that is just wrong. we would not do that.


lmao, touch'e


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## RaptorAddict (Oct 29, 2011)

As Lewis Black said "There's no such thing as soy milk. It's soy juice. But they couldn't sell soy juice, so they called it soy milk. Because anytime you say soy juice, you actually... start to gag. And they put Soy Milk in with my Moo-Cow **** milk, and it doesn't belong there, because we all know there's no such thing as Soy milk 'cause there's no soy titty, is there?"

Soy Juice?
Almond Juice?
Rice Juice?

None sound so good now eh?..


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

cbussiere said:


> As Lewis Black said "There's no such thing as soy milk. It's soy juice. But they couldn't sell soy juice, so they called it soy milk. Because anytime you say soy juice, you actually... start to gag. And they put Soy Milk in with my Moo-Cow **** milk, and it doesn't belong there, because we all know there's no such thing as Soy milk 'cause there's no soy titty, is there?"
> 
> Soy Juice?
> Almond Juice?
> ...


It's not really juice. It really is the milk that comes off the grains when they soak and begin to sprout. Juice is what you get when you remove the fibers from fruits, or crush them to oblivion and drain the liquid out.

Soy consumption is a myth, the worry is phytoestrogens mimicking estrogen cells and blocking hormone receptors but the amount of soy you would have to consume to have an effect is way above the amount that any rational person would eat.

Milk is whack, yogurt is great. Kefir (drinkable yogurt) is best.


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> Soy consumption is a myth, the worry is phytoestrogens mimicking estrogen cells and blocking hormone receptors but the amount of soy you would have to consume to have an effect is way above the amount that any rational person would eat.


--Don't know about this one.. I read this article in Men's Health a little while ago, this guy was an Army Intelligence Captain (something like that)---he drank a glass a day and turned into a woman!!

Soy's Negative Effects | Men's Health

--5 years ago I drank Silk Soy milk, and it did something!! I have an extremely dry scalp and had a dermatologist tell me years ago the only cure for that was to take female hormone's!! And All I know is that my scalp was fine while drinking soymilk years ago!!


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

247 said:


> --Don't know about this one.. I read this article in Men's Health a little while ago, this guy was an Army Intelligence Captain (something like that)---he drank a glass a day and turned into a woman!!
> 
> Soy's Negative Effects | Men's Health
> 
> --5 years ago I drank Silk Soy milk, and it did something!! I have an extremely dry scalp and had a dermatologist tell me years ago the only cure for that was to take female hormone's!! And All I know is that my scalp was fine while drinking soymilk years ago!!


Did you even read the article? It complies with what I said, in moderate doses soy does not cause any risk. Every symptom that they describe is for the population that eats the most amount of soy a day. That military officer claimed to drink 3 quarts of soy milk a day, thats a ton. Other claims involve individuals eating a pound of tofu regularly each day. Again, more tofu than the you should consume. Everything in moderation.

Large scale intake of lactose can wreak havoc on the intestines too, since our body is not designed to process it outside of childhood development. This is why a lot of people are ditching soy and whey proteins when trying to bulk up.

If you're really worried about your soy intake, you'd better be on a complete free-range organic diet with no processed or canned foods. You'd be really surprised how often food companies slip in TVP (essentially dried tofu) in as a meat filler.


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## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

GTscoob said:


> Did you even read the article? It complies with what I said, in moderate doses soy does not cause any risk. Every symptom that they describe is for the population that eats the most amount of soy a day. That military officer claimed to drink 3 quarts of soy milk a day, thats a ton. Other claims involve individuals eating a pound of tofu regularly each day. Again, more tofu than the you should consume. Everything in moderation.
> 
> Large scale intake of lactose can wreak havoc on the intestines too, since our body is not designed to process it outside of childhood development. This is why a lot of people are ditching soy and whey proteins when trying to bulk up.
> 
> If you're really worried about your soy intake, you'd better be on a complete free-range organic diet with no processed or canned foods. You'd be really surprised how often food companies slip in TVP (essentially dried tofu) in as a meat filler.


http://forums.mtbr.com/nutrition-hydration/protein-bars-716250-2.html 
I had this same discussion with 247 a few months ago. Good responses on your part.


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## asphalt_jesus (Aug 13, 2010)

Trail Addict said:


> I just drink either almond milk or soy milk. MUCH more healthy than cow milk!!!


Well, it depends on what you and other mean by healthy. Humans don't "need" milk from other animals to thrive. Nice to have though.

Both product categories are on average processed beyond nutritional recognition and in some cases supplemented, so IMHO, it's fair to call both pretty low in a range of nutritional density.

Calories? sure. Plenty in both. Look at the sugar/fat content in the non-dairy beverages sometime. Lots of both in many of them.

Enjoying both categories in moderation is going to lead to good results. Change the diet up a little and try sticking to one or the other for a while and see what happens.

I enjoy raw cow's milk and goat's milk when I take the time to get it. The flavor varies and is intense compared to homogenized/pasteurized milk but I'm not kidding myself that it is nutritious. Better still, raw cream. Raw cream is unbelievable.... It's worth finding. Straus Dairy used to sell raw cream through Whole Foods. It was a tiny bottle, but the flavor is so intense no one needs much. Worth every penny.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

cbussiere said:


> As Lewis Black said "There's no such thing as soy milk. It's soy juice. But they couldn't sell soy juice, so they called it soy milk....
> Soy Juice?
> Almond Juice?
> Rice Juice?
> ...


I find it interesting when people say they are going vegetarian and avoiding those evil processed foods, and then put tvp and soy "milk" into their diets.

That said, if I suddenly couldn't process lactose, I'd put soy or almond juice on my milk without a second thought.


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## MRisme (Mar 22, 2010)

To each, their own.


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## mtb_rider11 (Dec 28, 2011)

dave54 said:


> A growing body of medical literature suggests men should limit their soy consumption. No problems reported for women, just men.


I've read that soy products are considered to be slightly anti-thyroid so I avoid it. I don't have thyroid problems but hypothyroidism runs in my family. My digestive system does not like soy either, another reason to stay away from it.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

Bill in Houston said:


> I find it interesting when people say they are going vegetarian and avoiding those evil processed foods, and then put tvp and soy "milk" into their diets.
> 
> That said, if I suddenly couldn't process lactose, I'd put soy or almond juice on my milk without a second thought.


Soy milk and TVP are not heavily processed. Look up the procedure for making tofu and nut milks. Tofu is no more processed than homemade cheese or yogurt, it's just bean curd, the same as you have cheese/dairy curds that are nutrient rich in cottage cheese or whole cheese curd form. TVP is just shredded/dehydrated tofu.

Nut milks, and soy byproducts are pretty easy to make in your own kitchen with basic appliances. :thumbsup:

So much misinformation floating in this thread . . . I'm not even big into tofu/soy products, just want to get correct information out.



mtb_rider11 said:


> I've read that soy products are considered to be slightly anti-thyroid so I avoid it. I don't have thyroid problems but hypothyroidism runs in my family. My digestive system does not like soy either, another reason to stay away from it.


Here's a good reason to ditch the soy. The phytoestrogens can wreak havoc if you have an existing or potential hormonal imbalance due to a medical disorder, surgery, or medication.


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## Burning Matches (Mar 14, 2011)

Milk from cows is designed to turn a 60 lb calf into a 600 lb cow in the short window of 6 months. It is densely loaded with nutrients and hormones that are great for COWS, not people. Drink at your own risk.


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## PolishExperiment (May 14, 2011)

Milk turned me from a 60 lb calf to a 600 lb cow. I'd be much happier turning into a soy stalk, too bad I didn't drink soy milk.


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## Cutbert (Jul 26, 2010)

Drop the milk, drop all the dairy. Go Paleo!
Don't drink soy either. Drink almond milk or coconut milk.
Check out why by reading from Home or Mark's Daily Apple or www.chriskresser.com or Primal Body-Primal Mind | Beyond The Paleo Diet

When you do the research you'll find that dairy & soy is really not good for your gut or liver, milk is really for infants and baby bovines to help them grow fast. Once a certain maturity is reached, dairy should be avoided all together.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

People that have actually done the research know the paleo fad is just junk pseudoscience.


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## Cutbert (Jul 26, 2010)

dave54 said:


> People that have actually done the research know the paleo fad is just junk pseudoscience.


Uh, yeah that's funny. Only 2.5 million years of "pseudoscience". How do you think the human race made it this far?


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## m85476585 (Jun 7, 2007)

If I'm going to drink rice, I prefer horchata. I had rice milk once and it didn't agree with my stomach. Horchata isn't great either, but it tastes so good!

I'm allergic to soy, so no worries about eating too much of that. I might be allergic to almonds too.

I can't remember the last time I drank a glass of plain milk, but I have milk in my cereal almost every morning.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

horchata, for the win.


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## Flat Ark (Oct 14, 2006)

I know lots of old "healthy" people who have drank cow's milk virtually every day of their lives. I'm willing to bet they wouldn't be any better off had they drank soy or some type of nut milk instead. There are upsides and downsides to most everything we put in our bodies. We are always reading that "the latest study" says eat "this", "the latest study" says eat "that". It all just goes in circles. If you like cow milk then drink the stuff. Quit worrying and live your life!


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## mrbigisbudgood (Apr 4, 2011)

dave54 said:


> People that have actually done the research know the paleo fad is just junk pseudoscience.


I'm with Cutbert here.

Starting the Paleo diet for my daughter and I was a life changing experience for both of us. Neither of us realized how shitty we actually felt before making the change.

The rash on my back that I have had for years disappeared.
The diagnosed "eczema" on my daughters arms and neck disappeared.
My seasonal allergies have mostly disappeared.
My blood pressure dropped.
I ride faster, longer, taking in less fuel during rides.
I dropped 7 lbs in the first 2 weeks of the diet

I fell off the diet for a week while on vacation and the rash came back, the allergies came back, and 5 lbs came back (no, I didn't overeat 17500 kCal in a week).

People who have actually given the diet a chance know it is not a fad or pseudoscience. You can bash it with research and statistics all you want, but I know for a fact, with data, that it is the dietary lifestyle that works best for my daughter and I. ...(added)... If it's a fad or pseudoscience, why does it work for us so well?


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> Drop the milk, drop all the dairy. Go Paleo!
> Don't drink soy either. Drink almond milk


At Home, I do this Exactly!! But i do eat convntial processed food when I eat out (mostly wing nights though and beer)---


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> The diagnosed "eczema" on my daughters arms and neck disappeared


99% of the Eczema I would get on my forehead and nose are gone now---since I started Paleo (and Organic Steel cut oats for weekly breakfast)--weekends its eggs only....

---_It was cool when I started MTB'ing 3 years ago cause I would go to work and blame the Eczema on my bike helment making a rash!!!
_
*--I even put Organic Apple Cider Vinegar in my morning water on the weekdays---That is extremely helpful!!!! Along with my Organic Blackstaff Molases *(which I out on my Natural Fruit bars---cause I had to cut out the Frozen Yogurt with all that sugar and chemicals)-----AGAIN that is at home.. If I go out I will have Rita's cones, etc... But that is about once a week only....


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## Cutbert (Jul 26, 2010)

*Paleo*

Dont want to hijack this post, however. Glad to see you two are onboard with this.
I'm going to be 51 years old this summer, I'm telling you this because most of the posters here I would bet are in their 20's & 30's. I've been MTBing longer than some of you have been alive. I was born with a boatload of allergies, lived the first 50 years of my life ill but didn't even know it. I've been looking for the right "diet" for performance for the past 20 years. Tried "low fat - high carb - whole grain" (the Pritikin Diet). Made me sick, the entire time, Dr.s said give it time, it'll improve. NOPE, blood pressure went up, cholesterol went up, allergies increased and I couldn't MTB. Tried vegetarian, it was worse. Vegan? HAAAAAAAA Haaaa humph.... So I went back to just eating all the crap everyone else does. Put on weight, felt like crap, figured this was my life - depressing. Sux!

Last summer I found the Four Hour Body, Tim Ferrous. Reading posts on his blog, came across an ultra endurance athlete. Ultra marathoner. You know the 100 milers? Tim asked how he trained for an Ultra Marathon, he said he switched to Paleo, that was the first I heard of it, started my research and found it isn't a diet it's a lifestyle. I am finally healthy after living sick for the 50 years of my life. At 20 or 30 you think you can outlast or heal over anything, tough it out. At 50 you realize you won't be 20 or 30 ever again. I ride some pretty technical trails out here, crash occasionally because I ride like I did when I raced motocross in my 20's, raced MTB in my 30's - I'm a technical, all mountain sort of rider. I blow past you20 & 30 something's because of my Paleo, and I recover to do it again the following day because of my Paelo. You can't do that on the SAD (standard American diet). 
If you are 20 or 30 or whatever, don't wait until you are 50 like I had to, start researching it NOW. Believe me, the government and the AMA nor the cancer or diabetes associations have your best interest in mind. If you are sick, they are healthy with profits. Take your life into your own hands. Check out Mark Sisson, Robb Wolf, Chris Kresser, Nora Gedgadus.... And so many more. over and out.


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## Adim_X (Mar 3, 2010)

247 said:


> 99% of the Eczema I would get on my forehead and nose are gone now---since I started Paleo (and Organic Steel cut oats for weekly breakfast)--weekends its eggs only....
> 
> ---_It was cool when I started MTB'ing 3 years ago cause I would go to work and blame the Eczema on my bike helment making a rash!!!
> _
> *--I even put Organic Apple Cider Vinegar in my morning water on the weekdays---That is extremely helpful!!!! Along with my Organic Blackstaff Molases *(which I out on my Natural Fruit bars---cause I had to cut out the Frozen Yogurt with all that sugar and chemicals)-----AGAIN that is at home.. If I go out I will have Rita's cones, etc... But that is about once a week only....


I am under the impression that oats are still not paleo, no matter how you eat'em. They are a processed grain. Although after bit of googling, there are far worse things you could be eating.

I have been doing Paleo for about 1.5 months. I have not seen any dramatic differences because my eating was pretty good to begin with. Paleo just removed a few more food from an already tight list for me. I have dropped 100lbs in the last 2 years, but I hit a wall for the last 8 months so Paleo is what I am trying now. I am down about 8lbs since starting.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

Adim_X said:


> I am under the impression that oats are still not paleo, no matter how you eat'em.


Depending on how militant the paleo sect is, the molasses might be out, and vinegar might be too. Whatever, I am glad people are finding food that works for them.


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## Cutbert (Jul 26, 2010)

Adim_X said:


> I am under the impression that oats are still not paleo, no matter how you eat'em. They are a processed grain. Although after bit of googling, there are far worse things you could be eating.
> 
> I have been doing Paleo for about 1.5 months. I have not seen any dramatic differences because my eating was pretty good to begin with. Paleo just removed a few more food from an already tight list for me. I have dropped 100lbs in the last 2 years, but I hit a wall for the last 8 months so Paleo is what I am trying now. I am down about 8lbs since starting.


100 lbs is awesome! Keep in mind Paleo is not about weight loss, so don't look for it. It's about optimum health. You'll build lean muscle mass (usable muscle) even if you are a couch potato, so you may even gain weight. Measure yourself with a tape measure, how your clothes fit but most importantly HOW YOU FEEL mentally & physically.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

My subscription somehow got terminated for this thread. It went to **** real fast. 

Bill in Houston, I'm with you horchata for the mother****ing win. The paleo diet is a pretty lame fad diet as far as I'm concerned. It's not 2.5million years of science since "science" hasn't been around that long. You can pretty much take the opposite of anything 247 says as what is really going on or just ignore anything he espouses since he is clueless about probably everything under the sun. Ignoring him is the route I generally take. 

As far as milk goes, it's ****ing baby formula people. You wouldn't go to the grocery and buy Infamil to make as a protein shake for yourself, why the hell would you drink baby cow formula?


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## Keranu (Apr 21, 2012)

For an incredible analysis on the hazardous effects of non-fermented soy, I recommend reading this page - rheumatic.org/soy.htm . There is an extra abundance of soy, companies started buying it up and selling it as health alternatives because of the high protein count. Unless it's fermented or mixed with fish/meat, common consumption of soy may not be as healthy as marketing tells us.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

monzie said:


> You wouldn't go to the grocery and buy Infamil to make as a protein shake for yourself,


yeah, i did the math and its too expensive.



monzie said:


> why the hell would you drink baby cow formula?


cuz it's so good!!!


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Bill in Houston said:


> cuz it's so good!!!


touché sir, touché.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I went vegan 12 years ago and I am doing just fine without dairy. there's a lot of conflicting information about animal-based foods and their necessity in one's diet, but it seems to be working for me. i don't want to get on a vegan soapbox about it, but that's been my experience without diary.

my take on it is that milk is a weird, perhaps "unnatural" part of our diet. Humans are, to my knowledge, the only animals that make a point of consuming another animal's lactation and the only that consume milk past infancy. sure, if you give a cat a saucer of milk, he'll love it, but no animal in the wild does that. I am sure that dairy can be a health part of anyone's diet, but it's not needed. if you're going to drink milk, do so after riding, and get it as unprocessed as you can. "non-fat milk" is almost junk food.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

GTscoob said:


> Nut milks, and soy byproducts are pretty easy to make in your own kitchen with basic appliances. :thumbsup:


I have done this and, holy hell, it's labor intensive. boil the beans for hours, blend and grind the beans, boil it again, separate the husks from the broth. then I made a little tofu box and made some tofu. the leftover grains made a nice crumbly, dry by product that I used to make some hearty cookies. hours of work yielded about 1/2 pound of tofu. it was certainly not a industrial process but it took too much time for me to want to do it again.


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## RaptorTC (Jan 22, 2012)

We don't really "need" milk at all. However, I particularly enjoy it and have no plans to stop drinking it anytime soon. Nothing is better than some milk and cookies. As far as riding goes I like to have a glass of chocolate milk after a ride, but never before.


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## bballr4567 (Mar 12, 2006)

I love to drink a glass of milk after a ride. Its a great boost and the days that I dont do it I truly feel an after effect of tiredness, soreness and just plain ole crappy feeling. Its loaded with everything that your body craves after a huge ride. To me, drinking a glass full of synthesized protein is about the worst thing you can do for your body yet how many people here advocate it? I mean, hell, the two most common proteins in the powder comes from cow's milk! Why do you need to process it out? Just drink it in its natural form. 

As far as not needing milk, there is a crap ton of food we eat that is not needed. We can literally survive on next to nothing but no one in their right mind does it.


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> You can pretty much take the opposite of anything 247 says as what is really going on or just ignore anything he espouses since he is clueless about probably everything under the sun. Ignoring him is the route I generally take.


*--Well, you just have fun (with getting Cancer in the years to come)--My health and wellness knowledge is Spiritual, Bro.. I am 'Lightyears' ahead of most fools (such as yourself.)

--My knowledge is Spiritual---I believed in karma since 1978. Been brushing my teeth with with baking soda and peroxide since the 1980's... Let me give you a quick lesson on 'Cell Food' which can cure Cancer Bro... Don't sleep on 247.. My **** is on a Whole Different Level than Most!! *

--*You sound like the "Sheep' as I call them (most folks are though)--they believe Everything the Govt. tells them to do (remember 40 years ago smoking was good for your health)----I'm sure you would have 'Not Listened' to anyone who disagreed with that.... Bro, All my **** is very correct... --So save Everything I say (then look 20 years from now) an see how Right I was!!!--BEEYACH!!*

--Oops (Almost forgot) about this one:



> The paleo diet is a pretty lame fad diet as far as I'm concerned


*That tells me (and 98% of people who read this Thread) that you really have NO IDEA what you are talkin about!!

--But you have ALOT of rep points (tells me most folks are foolish 'sheep' such as yourself)----ME, I have Negative 31 rep points (it was Negative 50) because I started a Thread that pissed off ALL THE SHEEP here------BUT All the Private messages I got were all Agreeing with (got about 40 of them on that post)---BUT they were all AFRAID to Reply because SHEEP such as yourself would TAKE AWAY their points...

--I am like GHANDI on MTBR when it comes to Knowledge (but most folks just cant HANDLE THE TRUTH*)------

*P.S. ---wasn't this 'Nutrition Forum' Started because of me (247)!!!!---Your Welcome!! *


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Yeah, because not owning a microwave is good( I agree) but using the one at work is okay since it doesn't belong to you, you won't get the cancer, your work will. Or all those cheese burgers you stuff your face with outside the house won't effect your health since they don't count, right? You're funny to me. Thanks for the consistent comedy _bro_.


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

Well I had used one at work previously (to heat up meat)--BUT stopped that completely (you were right about that)----

--AND yeah (my Cheating Outside my home) actually helps 'kick up' my metabolism (AND lIKE I Stated)--I am about 90% Paleo at home (and eating Organically)----AND my friend who is is a Doctor said I should have some (BAD) food, etc. from time to time just so my body 'cells' do their job with fighting infections (something like that)---It's late and I really dont fell like thinkin about this right now (how he stated it to me)-------------------BUT Its like if you ONLY 'live in a bubble', when you 'come out of it' and eat conventional, etc--your body is better prepared to Fight Infections...

--BUT ALAS, I am sure that most people like yourself who try to say 'I'm Crazy about things I say'--YOU KNOW I AM RIGHT!!!--It's like for years when pilots could not report seeing UFO's (or they lost there jobs)----which is still happpenning these days (my friend is a pilot and said the Pilots handbook says TO NOT EVER Report these)---the FAA says NOT TO (and tht'as 100% true--look it up) Bro....


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Like I said, comedy. Do you have a deal with Viacom yet?


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

monzie, i didn't know you had a brother.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Yeah, I'm staying on his couch whi...wait, is this OT or are you referring to the ludicrous argument 247 is trying to engage me in and failing at?(winky face!)


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

Hey Fonzie (I mean Monzie)---

--I would think you were a 'Roadie' and not a Mountain Biker.. Riding Trails involves being in touch with 'Nature Itself', having an 'Alternative' or more 'Natural' Approach to life (and things we do or don't put into our bodies)---It's the Roadies who:

1. Take Drugs, medications, etc etc.. --Not the Healthiest Lifestyle Approach...

---So please, read my posts (and learn something)---AND that's All I'm going to say on this Subject (Unless you Open Your Big Ol' Mouth Again) and get me started!!


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Broad generalizations for such a spiritual person, don't you think? And, for the record, you do indeed put garbage on your body. If I need to remind you. I believe you yourself said--in an effort to quell the "hippie" label--you eat at McDonalds. So much for that belief. 
I doubt I'll learn anything from you as you're pretty hypocritical and can barely keep a coherent statement in line with your supposed beliefs.


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> you do indeed put garbage on your body. If I need to remind you. I believe you yourself said--in an effort to quell the "hippie" label--you eat at McDonalds. So much for that belief


One thing I have have done (with my diet and lifestyle) is Transcend to a Greater Good (getting Spiritual about things_)--Now when I say Spiritual it means Enlightenment--cause I have not been to Church sone the 1980's, and that was ONLY for X-mas!!
_--

Life and my diet have been a Natural Progression,, At home I now go 100% Clean, That is what I said all along (and yes being in Marketing/Inside Sales and a former Sales Manager for a I.T. Company--outside of Harrisburg Pa.---whose 'big account' was the State Supreme Court (until our company was sold last year)-----Sometimes I have had to eat on the road (Alot of times actually)---or use microwaves at work (but eatin my mostly Paloe Diet--except the Steel cut Organic Oats I eat weekdays)---I used to use Ziploc BPA free plastic, now I only use 100% glass containers)-----It was a 'growing process that included building my 29er 3 years ago)-----

--I cannot keep ANY sugar at home (or I go crazy)---and when I have kids they are going to have to 'lock up candy in a safe'--but that is me (using Artistic license)--but mostly true--BUT my posts have all been true (how I was living at the time and now)-----I'm learning (getting better)--and dont even crave sweets anymore (if I need one I have a peanut butter GU gel shot)------

----ALSO I have cut out McDonalds completey (had a burger and had plastic wrap inside it from the cheese)--ONLY '5 Guys' now where I can see them making a burger FRESH... BUT that is when (or if) I have to cheat on my diet (or starve)---with eating Paleo and watching portions it is hard to miss any meal (or you get Extremely hungry)---

--But no one eats as Healthy as I do (at home) compared to the General Population (not people reading this forum)----BUT responding to people calling me a hippe' is waht I am doing... In Central Pa. you have some of the BEST Smorgasbords and 'Fresh Food' in general---and I do Indulge when I go out (but not as bad as i used to------so still 'Transcending to a Higher Plateau'.. In all factes of my life......

--*So as in life things are a Natural Progression* Something I said in an email 3 months ago (might not apply today)---But its honest and true (and just like all the people on this forum) we are here to learn (and grow)----not be some opinionated (wrong mostly) person such as yourself... ---

--I am not some Troll (or fake MTBR) whatever who just types things to type them. I have had a few PM's about people asking me things (and asking do I really eat this way at home)---MY DIET is like no other (because I eat 'at home' exactly the SAME THING, Every day of the week---Every week of the Year!!) I now 99,99% of the Population CANNOT DO THAT, so If I cheat every now and then it is for Sanity reasons also----I EAT THE SAME THING EVERY MEAL for Every week.... But I can stick to this without EVER cheating at all (its all about discipline!!)-----and I am Portion control like 'no one else'!!

---AND I am really Quick to post pics or a video---so Folks know I am tellin the truth!!!

BUT at Home I am 100% CLEAN now (and about 90% Paleo) which has cured lingering problems I have had for 10 years now!!!--PALEO, or Mostly Paleo is GREAT!!---BUT I DO GET MY DRINK ON, have a Great bar and ALOT of Mexican beer---BUT ALSO here is a pic of my 'blender' that I talked about in another post here--IN CASE YOU THINK I'm B.S.ing about that also---Enjoy!!!

So enjoy these pics----AND do some reading here (AND LEARN SOMETHING)---Because for 20 years folks who have laughed at stuff I do (NOW they and their kids do Exactly the same thing---KNOWING 247 was RIGHT!!!)-

---ALSO you will see in these pics things I have talked about in my posts (like my Iodized Sea Salt)---casue without Iodine you could die (I know folks who had organs shut down because of this)-----ALSO the Hot Sauce I just picked up after reading in DIRT RAG Magazine (which is the Best I ever had)-----------


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Not a dig but it's a little bit hard for me to follow your posts because of how you punctuate; so I will respond to each paragraph as a whole.

Paragraph one:
Your spirituality is your thing. If eating is spiritual for you, cool. I'm not a spiritual person at all. it takes all kinds...I'm not overly concerned with what you do for a living but thank for sharing. Cool that you went from plastic baggies to glass. It's a little overboard in my opinion but that's me, you did you.

Paragraph two:
A bunch of personal information regarding sugar. So allow me to share the same. I don't particularly have a sweet tooth. I'm more into savory foodstuffs. Half a candy bar or a few bites of ice cream every three or four months helps reaffirm my indifference to sugar. I'm glad you found a way to ease your sugar craving.

Paragraph three:
You're still eating a fast food with highly processed and chemically enhanced/treated components. I understand you are on the road a lot but there are grocery stores in every city as far as I'm aware and as such you should be able to find fresh produce or a reasonable facsimile of such. Even Annie's Organic Mac and Cheese would be prefferable to me than anything from a "greasy spoon". I'm sure they would/should also have quinoa at said grocery and if you are working for such a high profile company you could ask for--or possibly have--a room with a stove. If not, hot plates are cheap. Bottom line, there's a way when you have the will. 

Paragraph four:
I have no real comment besides good job on weaning yourself off of the take-out.


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> Cool that you went from plastic baggies to glass. It's a little overboard in my opinion but that's me, you did you.


--Its little things (that go a long way)----but when i post this stuff people call me a 'Hippe' and I am far from it------

---ALSO, I am done (I just dont take kindly when people 'throw me under the bus)---i was born and raised in Philly, so whether on a post online, or in person (I AM NOT THE ONE!)---BUT I do not want this thread to get closed (like a few of mine have) from saying my opinion which might not have been to popular---which made Negative rep points (even my post about that got Re Cycled) and got me more negative points.... SO I am stopping this one----AGAIN, Until someone else calls me out (cauze I am not the one)-----


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> I am under the impression that oats are still not paleo


--That's true, but 2 months ago I was eating Instant Organic (sugar filled oatmeal)---so this is ALOT better than that.. ALSO I do about 90% Paleo (but have to have some carbs in the morning weekdays because in Sales/Marketing I need to be on my toes--carbs help with that)----BUT weekends it is Eggs and Green Mountain ****** Salsa (so that might have a little procesed sodium)--but it works baecause I do not eat any tomotoes otherwise---i do not do salads at all!


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Soooo, milk, still not necessary. Discuss.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Oh ****, your edit to your original post throws my response out of whack...oh well, such is life.


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> your edit to your original post throws my response out of whack


Well its better than posting something else (with bad grammer and Grammatical errors)-----Its funny, 247 is the total converse of what i have dine for a living previously (technical writing and proof reading)-----

---ALSo back to the Original post, you will see in on of my many pics the Almond Unswetened Vanilla Soymilk I drink (only for Calcium purposes) becuse 'I Feel' and have heard from an Agricultural Scientist in New Holland Pa. that humans' Do Not' and 'Should not' drink milk.. 
--And know I am healthier since I cut it out (and have better skin)--ALSO dont have any side effects I had seen with drinking Soy Milk a few years ago (about 20 ounces daily)---maybe 32 some days!!


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## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

dave54 said:


> A growing body of medical literature suggests men should limit their soy consumption. No problems reported for women, just men.


I just fully read this post. There actually is a problem for women. If women take birth control pills and/or smoke, soy based products have been contraindicated for a while now. The trifecta of smoking/BC pills/say is a big no-no.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

It's either almond or soy milk, not both( though they do make an almond/coconut milk). And it's not even needed for calcium. Any dark green leafy vegetable has calcium( along with iron, folate and a wealth of other healthy vitamins and minerals).


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Crockpot2001 said:


> I just fully read this post. There actually is a problem for women. If women take birth control pills and/or smoke, soy based products have been contraindicated for a while now. The trifecta of smoking/BC pills/say is a big no-no.


I've head about this too. But I haven't done any research into it as I'm not a woman and it only concerns me on the periphery.


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> It's either almond or soy milk, not both


Your'e right (My Bad) just bad grammer----And yeah I used to (when living in Philly) and when I used to go there (and bring back a small trasch can filled with 'ice and Trader Joes' $1.99 Big Bag of Organic Spinach) I drank no milk at all (because I had 2 cuos of Spinach daily)----

--But here (in my pics) I pay Twice that for half the amount of Cascadia Farms Organic Spinach---so I eat ALOT less (and just feel and sleep better with drinking added calcium)---But I am Only eating Organic Vegetables (now the meat I only eat Red Meat) thats Organic (everything else is close enough!!)----


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## dpo (Apr 30, 2012)

Well, I started drinking almond and soy milk because ( I am 51) and once I stopped drinking milk it helped get my cholesterol down. Milk is terrible for the arteries ( according to my father in law who makes heart valves...) There are several posts in this thread making me rethink drinking milk...lol. I have a hard time balancing what I should eat for riding versus a low cholesterol diet. Mass confusion:madman:


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## yodaopie (Jun 24, 2008)

Milk and animal products are not necessary to most of the population, that said milk and animal products are absolutely more calorically dense then vegetable products. 

The problem with all the food we consume is the fact that very little of it resembles itself anymore. Everything has to be processed and modified in order to make it palatable and most importantly cheep. 

The biggest problem is we all want perfect help and 2$ cheeseburgers.

As for Paleo I don't agree we have been doing it for millions of years. The way we eat now in no way resembles the way a caveman ate. Besides the incredible amount of raw food that would have been consumed, meat was not a readily available option. When a caveman had meat I have no doubts he ate it, Same with nuts, or berries or anything else. 

Balance and moderation, preferably organic (although this is less and less meaningful). 

In the words of Micheal Pollan "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants"


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## DanR7985 (May 7, 2012)

I know that I would lose some weight if I stopped drinking milk, I have a glass at every meal, but nothing tastes better to me than a cold glass of milk. 

I have tried soy milk, and it was too sweet tasting to me. I have not tried almond milk. Does it taste like regular milk?

I would also love to get all organic foods, but I have no idea where to get them here, and with my limited budget I am stuck at shopping at places like Aldi's


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

DanR7985 said:


> I have not tried almond milk. Does it taste like regular milk?


No, it doesn't, but it's really good.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

DanR7985 said:


> I know that I would lose some weight if I stopped drinking milk, I have a glass at every meal, but nothing tastes better to me than a cold glass of milk.
> 
> I have tried soy milk, and it was too sweet tasting to me. I have not tried almond milk. Does it taste like regular milk?
> 
> I would also love to get all organic foods, but I have no idea where to get them here, and with my limited budget I am stuck at shopping at places like Aldi's


Plain unsweetened almond milk from Blue Diamond is awesome. It's a nut milk so it does suffer from the very slight nuttiness to the flavor but it's not too sweet.

As for Aldi shopping, Whole foods dry goods are a win. $1.69/lb for lentils, chickpeas and some rices (in my region, yours may differ, though I doubt by much). Check and see if your city has a local farmers market. Talk to your farmer, make sure they are from a reasonably close distance. Some do practice sustainable and organic farming but lack the funds for all the cert's from the government. They are usually cheap and fresh as hell. Plus, you make a new friend and see the person who you are helping to support their family and it's a cool thing to chat up someone about their business which happens to be keeping you fed.


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## DanR7985 (May 7, 2012)

monzie said:


> Plain unsweetened almond milk from Blue Diamond is awesome. It's a nut milk so it does suffer from the very slight nuttiness to the flavor but it's not too sweet.
> 
> As for Aldi shopping, Whole foods dry goods are a win. $1.69/lb for lentils, chickpeas and some rices (in my region, yours may differ, though I doubt by much). Check and see if your city has a local farmers market. Talk to your farmer, make sure they are from a reasonably close distance. Some do practice sustainable and organic farming but lack the funds for all the cert's from the government. They are usually cheap and fresh as hell. Plus, you make a new friend and see the person who you are helping to support their family and it's a cool thing to chat up someone about their business which happens to be keeping you fed.


Being as I live in central Illinois with fields everywhere I do know quite a few farmers. I have never asked them if they do organic though. I'll give it a shot and ask them. Thanks for the reply.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Keep in mind, organic is often a sham. Reason is because the government allows exemptions for the use of chemicals on organic crops while allowing the produce to still be labeled organic. So even if a farm gets this exemption once every 10 years, all the other years they don't spray, their crops are still not organic due to the chemicals remaining in the ground.

So yeah, you might be better off getting less chemicals on your organic food but you are likely still getting some. Unless it's a small farm that you know the farmer or you grow it yourself, you can never know for sure how organic the food you are eating really is.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Keep in mind, organic is often a sham. Reason is because the government allows exemptions for the use of chemicals on organic crops while allowing the produce to still be labeled organic. So even if a farm gets this exemption once every 10 years, all the other years they don't spray, their crops are still not organic due to the chemicals remaining in the ground.
> 
> So yeah, you might be better off getting less chemicals on your organic food but you are likely still getting some. Unless it's a small farm that you know the farmer or you grow it yourself, you can never know for sure how organic the food you are eating really is.


True. The FDA is like any other commodity to be bought and sold to fit the needs of whatever corporation has an agenda. In my opinion, of course. But the local little guys may be doing it better and cleaner than the big guys and are usually more perceptive and ready to listen to the demands of their customer base as those are the folks who pay their bills and they have a direct relation with you. And, honestly, as terrible as it sounds, I'd rather eat chemical laden food from my region than organize that are shipped in from Argentina, Mexico, Columbia etc.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

The other thing is knowing which foods are most likely to absorb pesticides. Here's a pretty good list of fruits/veggies to prefer in organic trim, basically the thinner the skin the more likely it is that pesticides will get into the edible part of the fruit/veggie.
Most Important Foods to Eat Organic and Why

Thick skinned fruits/veggies like citrus, squash, avocados,etc generally do not have to be organic. Buy bulk grains and legumes dried and rehydrate and cook yourself so you can avoid the preservatives that come with canned/precooked beans.

More important than organic food, IMO, is avoiding genetically modified foods. Here's a quick quide to decoding produce codes to avoid GMOs.
How To I.D. Genetically Modified Food at the Supermarket « Kipnews | Knowledge is power


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Excellent info Scoob, one question though and it may be covered in the article, this only pertains to chemicals sprayed on the foods right? I imagine all plants, regardless of skin type would be effected by chemicals in the soil as the roots would leech them out thus bypassing the thick skin barrier.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

monzie said:


> And, honestly, as terrible as it sounds, I'd rather eat chemical laden food from my region than organize that are shipped in from Argentina, Mexico, Columbia etc.


I agree. I work weekends at a farmers market in the DC area and I get people asking all the time if our stuff is organic. I usually give them the little speech about what organic really is but I usually just get a turned up nose and view of their backside as they walk away to find their precious organic food. Most of them don't even know what organic is, they just know it's the in thing to do, eat organic. Of course I have a small garden at my house and I grow organic, but I don't buy into the organic hype because I know that most store bought stuff really isn't organic. Like you said, smaller local farms generally are organic if they say they are, they certainly take more pride in their produce then the commercial farms whose main goal is to pump out as much stuff as they can to make as much money as they can regardless of how they have to do it.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Yeah dude for sure. I don't buy into the organic hype from the grocery either. The only reason I buy organic produce from the grocery is because I assume I'm going to get less chemicals than if I bought full on choke you to death toxic food. But I'm probably not.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

haha...I'd probably still buy organic in the store but I'm a cheap, broke bastid anyways, so good ol'fashion commercial food for me...lol


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

monzie said:


> Excellent info Scoob, one question though and it may be covered in the article, this only pertains to chemicals sprayed on the foods right? I imagine all plants, regardless of skin type would be effected by chemicals in the soil as the roots would leech them out thus bypassing the thick skin barrier.


Not quite. Depends on the crop.

Citrus, for example. Nearly all chemicals in citrus groves are sprayed, not added to soil. The edible part of the fruit will have no detectable levels of chemicals. Since you peel and throw away the only part with any chemical residue it makes no sense to pay extra for organic. Watermelon and banana are the same way. Root crops and some grains tend to need soil fumigants. So you may buy organic for these if you wish. The whole chemical residue scare is way overdone anyway. Chemicals cost money. Farmers are not wantonly spraying the stuff around willy-nilly. They use only what they need and where they need it, and not any more than they need. Several labs have shown in double blind tests there were no measurable differences in either nutrition or unnatural chemicals between organic and conventional grown. Other tests have shown a small difference. So there is too much variability to make a blanket statement 'organic is better for you'.

There is a long list of pesticides allowed to be used on organic drops and still be labeled organic. Organic does NOT mean pesticide free. One of the pesticides allowed to be sprayed on organic crops is Bacillus Thuringensis -- or BT. This is the same BT Monsanto put into their GMO corn and uninformed activists rail against. BT is common in soils around the world and you have been breathing and ingesting it since birth (it requires an alkaline based digestion system to work, like insects have. Higher animals are acid based digestion, so BT is inert to us). Some of the 'natural' pesticides allowed on organic crops are quite toxic, but they are natural so allowed.

A good portion of our produce during the winter months comes from Latin America. Depending upon the country it may or may not have been grown using organic methods and still show up in American supermarkets with an organic label. I can just imagine some semi-literate Spanish speaking peasant signing a paper (written in English) stating he grows his crop organically. "Hey, Jose, you mean if I sign this paper the ****** Norte Americanos will pay me more money for my crop? Here hold my DDT sprayer while I sign."


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## XCProphet (Aug 23, 2005)

dave54 said:


> Not quite. Depends on the crop.
> 
> Citrus, for example. Nearly all chemicals in citrus groves are sprayed, not added to soil. The edible part of the fruit will have no detectable levels of chemicals. Since you peel and throw away the only part with any chemical residue it makes no sense to pay extra for organic. Watermelon and banana are the same way. Root crops and some grains tend to need soil fumigants. So you may buy organic for these if you wish. The whole chemical residue scare is way overdone anyway. Chemicals cost money. Farmers are not wantonly spraying the stuff around willy-nilly. They use only what they need and where they need it, and not any more than they need. Several labs have shown in double blind tests there were no measurable differences in either nutrition or unnatural chemicals between organic and conventional grown. Other tests have shown a small difference. So there is too much variability to make a blanket statement 'organic is better for you'.
> 
> ...


WOW..as the OP I must admit this thread has gone the way of the jasminium.

Here's my additional input to continue it:

Reports of "recovery" drinking chocolate milk is "better for you" than white milk after exercising has been more popular within the past four years.

Although both still equally give me gas.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

XCProphet said:


> WOW..as the OP I must admit this thread has gone the way of the jasminium.
> 
> Here's my additional input to continue it:
> 
> ...


Thread strayed around post #86. My fault, sorry. I think it arrived there organically, however (pun intended).

I think it might have to do with the amount of sugar the chocolate adds to the milk. But, since I haven't read these studies I'm just guessing. Do you have links? I'd like to read these studies out of curiosity.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

I think that milk is not the best choice just because many, if not most people have an allergy to it however slight. I can drink the stuff all day long and be ok, but I get increased mucus production. I went vegetarian last year for about 6 months including almost zero dairy and my mucus issue disappeared. Started drinking milk again and immediately it reappeared. But, if you can tolerate it, I guess go for it. In my mind, chocolate milk just doesn't feel right as a post-workout supplement so I'll stick to my old fashion whey, water, and dextrose followed up an hour later with a real meal of protein and complex carbs.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

Nubster said:


> I get increased mucus production.


I keep hearing about this. What are the symptoms of increased mucus production?



Nubster said:


> I'll stick to my old fashion whey, water, and dextrose


interesting that you mix up this synthetic stuff to get something that has the composition of, you know, milk.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Bill in Houston said:


> I keep hearing about this. What are the symptoms of increased mucus production?


The main symptom is increased mucus 

Seriously, when I drink a glass of milk, I get Phlegm in my throat that I have to hack up. Sounds appealing right? This lasts for probably 15-20 after I drink the milk and stops. Doesn't happen again until...you guessed it, I drink milk. I eat a lot of yogurt and I get much less reaction if any and I get no reaction to cheese.



Bill in Houston said:


> interesting that you mix up this synthetic stuff to get something that has the composition of, you know, milk.


Crazy huh. I don't know, it's not the same though. Even when I did the vegetarian thing, the whey protein didn't affect me like milk does. I drink milk now, don't get me wrong. But I also get the symptoms I was talking about.

But the other reason is because dextrose (glucose) > lactose when it comes to a post workout shake. Reason being, glucose is a monosaccharide, lactose is a disaccharide. Glucose is in a simple, ready to use form and gets into the blood fast which is the point of the post-workout shake. Lactose requires an enzyme to break the bond to get the glucose. When/if the bond is broken, you are left with a glucose and a galactose. The glucose can be used however further breakdown of the galactose into glucose is needed before the body can use it. So lactose requires more time and reactions in the body which defeats the purpose of taking a post-workout shake. Also, many people lack that enzyme needed to break down the lactose. I don't know if I am one of those people or not, it's generally those that are lactose intolerant but there is such a varying degree of intolerance that I may very well be and not know it. The mucus issue could be my lactose intolerant reaction for all I know. So, for my purposes, the whey, water, dextrose I know works as it should. There's no guessing.

And yeah, I know there's lactose in most whey powders, but it's an extremely low amount and has little to no effect on the quick absorption effect that you get after working out when mixing the whey with dextrose.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

Nubster said:


> The main symptom is increased mucus


Well, I guess I should have guess that. 



Nubster said:


> Seriously, when I drink a glass of milk, I get Phlegm in my throat that I have to hack up.


Ya, I can imagine wanting to avoid that...



Nubster said:


> Crazy huh. I don't know, it's not the same though. Even when I did the vegetarian thing, the whey protein didn't affect me like milk does. I drink milk now, don't get me wrong. But I also get the symptoms I was talking about.
> 
> But the other reason is because dextrose (glucose) > lactose when it comes to a post workout shake. Reason being, glucose is a monosaccharide, lactose is a disaccharide. Glucose is in a simple, ready to use form and gets into the blood fast which is the point of the post-workout shake. Lactose requires an enzyme to break the bond to get the glucose. When/if the bond is broken, you are left with a glucose and a galactose. The glucose can be used however further breakdown of the galactose into glucose is needed before the body can use it. So lactose requires more time and reactions in the body which defeats the purpose of taking a post-workout shake. Also, many people lack that enzyme needed to break down the lactose. I don't know if I am one of those people or not, it's generally those that are lactose intolerant but there is such a varying degree of intolerance that I may very well be and not know it. The mucus issue could be my lactose intolerant reaction for all I know. So, for my purposes, the whey, water, dextrose I know works as it should. There's no guessing.
> 
> And yeah, I know there's lactose in most whey powders, but it's an extremely low amount and has little to no effect on the quick absorption effect that you get after working out when mixing the whey with dextrose.


Ya, I guess lactose is a little different, and especially difficult for some people. Thanks for explaining.


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## XCProphet (Aug 23, 2005)

Chocolate milk = too dark
White milk = too white
Almond milk = juuust right


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## jimification (Apr 12, 2011)

As far as a post ride drink is concerned, I understood that any fat slowed down the glycogen manufacturing process, so milk wouldn't be the preference for that.

A few people have mentioned calcium as one of the benefits of milk...years and years of marketing have spread this myth but it's completely false - though cow's milk does contain large amounts of calcium, it's not easily absorbed by us in that form. Worse than that, milk can indirectly leach calcium from bones, contributing to osteoporosis in later life.

Debunking the Milk Myth: Why Milk is Bad for You and Your Bones | Save Our Bones


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

LOL!! LOL!!

Did you even bother to read that web site link you posted? It is a commercial web site trying to sell you their book and supplements. That site uses every trick to convince you doctors are lying to you, science is wrong (but their studies are gospel), ad nauseum.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

At least there are lots of alternatives if you don't want to or don't trust drinking milk. Other dairy products, especially yogurt. Green leafy veggies though some say the calcium contained in them are not well absorbed, canned fish are a great source because the bones are included and edible and fish is one of the few natural sources of vitamin D. HEck, even OJ these days has calcium. I consume enough of these things that I could cut out milk and not have to worry about calcium.


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## jimification (Apr 12, 2011)

dave54 said:


> LOL!! LOL!!
> 
> Did you even bother to read that web site link you posted? It is a commercial web site trying to sell you their book and supplements. That site uses every trick to convince you doctors are lying to you, science is wrong (but their studies are gospel), ad nauseum.


That web site actually does quite a good job of explaining the issues involved (and there's plenty of evidence to back if up). Google "milk and osteoporosis" if you're interested. If not just carry on - I couldn't care a less if you drink milk or not!

I do think people shouldn't take 30 years of milk marketing as gospel truth, though. Look it up and come to your own conclusions...


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

I'm on the fence on milk. I know it has some good points, and some bad points. I know what commercial milk is all about and it's pretty disgusting honestly if you think about it and what's in it, but I still drink it. Not often straight but in smoothies and protein shakes. I wish Almond milk was a little cheaper or I'd switch over to that exclusively. 

For the record, I've read a number of articles about milk and the poor bio-availability of calcium but I also have read that calcium in milk is highly absorbable. I guess you just have to pick a camp and pitch your tent because it's all pretty confusing. Kinda like whole eggs and red meat. The stance flip flops so often, who really knows from one day to the next if one should be eating them.


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## OleGrayHair (Nov 24, 2010)

*Milk....do I really need it*



dave54 said:


> (Ignore the wild claims about trans-fat and HFCS - soda pop, especially colas, is the real 'poison' in the American diet, even those with real sugar)
> 
> Wow....How nice to spout such a bunch of crap!! You know why HFCS is so bad worse actually than sugar for us. It is processed into FAT stores for later comsumption by the body...in lean times. Many kids/adults in this country will never have lean times so all that soda and fruit juice just goes to adjusting their waistline a little bigger. Add that to the inactivity that is so rampant in this country these days and no wonder the Obesity Epidemic is becoming so real. Oh and while we are on the topic - the illustrious government is giving farmers incentives to produce corn for continued use in food products - ie. HFCS production - so don't ever boo hoo the hype on these things. It's just pain ignorance!!
> Trans Fat - is bad because of it is a contributing factor to heart disease.
> ...


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

the diabetes epidemic will save social security. sad, but true.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

OleGrayHair said:


> .
> ...Just my $0.02


You overcharge.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Bill in Houston said:


> the diabetes epidemic will save social security. sad, but true.


So will pot smoking.


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## Dgage (Aug 20, 2006)

GTscoob said:


> This. Humans are the only animals that drink milk after adolescence..


What about cats? They drink milk if you give it to them. Dogs will too. So horses, cattle, pigs ect ect. I think the exact opposite is true. Any animal will drink milk if given access to it and it doesn't matter how old they are.


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## XCProphet (Aug 23, 2005)

Dgage said:


> What about cats? They drink milk if you give it to them. Dogs will too. So horses, cattle, pigs ect ect. I think the exact opposite is true. Any animal will drink milk if given access to it and it doesn't matter how old they are.


I think he meant mother's milk...mmm....That's probably another thread


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## jathanas (Dec 9, 2009)

GTscoob said:


> This. *Humans are the only animals that drink milk after adolescence*. If you need dairy, drink some kefir or eat some yogurt.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, I haven't found any mammals other than humans gulping down the almond or soy milk either.

Milk is very nutritious for the people that are not lactose intolerant. It's common literature now that good ol' chocolate milk is a very effective recovery drink.

As with everything listen to your body and consume with moderation.

Cheers, J


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## TuCsaT (Apr 5, 2008)

I for one love a tall glass of milk. Just not before a ride.


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## durianrider (Mar 16, 2009)

I did a video on how to give up milk. RAW MILK ? COWS MILK OR BREAST MILK ?: Whats better for health & weight loss? #273 - YouTube

MILK IS FOR BABIES! lol!

What animal in nature drinks milk from another species AND as adults?


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## JDM (May 2, 2008)

Suffering cows? Huh? I buy milk from a local farm. I show up while they are milking and they fill the container I bring. I see the cows and they don't seem to be suffering. I think the dairy-cow/human relationship can be symbiosis rather than parasitism. 

Heck, I would even make the case that the beef-herd/human relationship is symbiosis, but I understand that might be a stretch for some.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

durianrider said:


> What animal in nature drinks milk from another species AND as adults?


What other animal uses a computer? I expect that that was your last post then. Looks like we will be losing a highly valued member of the MTBR community, but we know that you have to stick to your principles.


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## monzie (Aug 5, 2009)

Bill in Houston said:


> What other animal uses a computer? I expect that that was your last post then. Looks like we will be losing a highly valued member of the MTBR community, but we know that you have to stick to your principles.


Since Durian is unable to explain his stance past his infantile PETA rhetoric I'd like to help him out.

Yes, as humans we are some of the most sentient creatures on the planet. We have been able to develop things that no other animal could begin to comprehend. There are a lot of things that could be said in this vein; what other animal drives, what other animal purchases its food, what other animal has artificial climate development under its belt, etc? But, the OP's question was, do I _need_ it? Short answer: no. However, anyone is free to want it. I personally do not like it or consume it; any other person is free to do as they wish in regards to what they ingest. But there still remains a stark lack of need for the liquid.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

JDM said:


> Suffering cows? Huh? I buy milk from a local farm. I show up while they are milking and they fill the container I bring. I see the cows and they don't seem to be suffering. I think the dairy-cow/human relationship can be symbiosis rather than parasitism.
> 
> Heck, I would even make the case that the beef-herd/human relationship is symbiosis, but I understand that might be a stretch for some.


I'm borderline vegetarian and cant stand PETA but the suffering cows is from factory farms that mistreat their livestock. Cows that can barely move and are just hooked up to milking machines, your local farm cows are probably not suffering but the cows that produce the cheap milk at the big box grocery stores are.

We dont need milk beyond adolescence. If you quit drinking milk for more than a few weeks your body will lose its ability to process it and you'll develop lactose intolerance.


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## JDM (May 2, 2008)

I don't need milk, but I sure like it!


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

monzie said:


> Since Durian is unable to explain his stance past his infantile PETA rhetoric I'd like to help him out.
> 
> Yes, as humans we are some of the most sentient creatures on the planet. We have been able to develop things that no other animal could begin to comprehend. There are a lot of things that could be said in this vein; what other animal drives, what other animal purchases its food, what other animal has artificial climate development under its belt, etc? But, the OP's question was, do I _need_ it? Short answer: no. However, anyone is free to want it. I personally do not like it or consume it; any other person is free to do as they wish in regards to what they ingest. But there still remains a stark lack of need for the liquid.


Yep. Thanks for this - there's a lot of ridiculous BS going on in this thread. It sure is entertaining though!


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## tony477g (Jul 2, 2012)

love handles prefer the stuff with more calories! I'd go with almond or soy, both taste pretty good and milk I just dont like


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## Eazy_E (Sep 30, 2011)

Hey guys, if you like almond milk, you know you can make it yourself fairly easy, right? Google it. Plus, once you're done, you have almond meal left over. Two-fer with the almonds.


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## Dusky21 (Jul 19, 2012)

Read the label on a gallon of milk and read the label on a carton of soy, almond, or rice milk. They both have their benefits. My choice, combine them, half a glass of both and you get the best of both worlds!


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

From a fitness/nutrition standpoint, there is nothing healthy or beneficial about milk. Its full of sugar, fat, its hard on the digestive system, and can cause bloating. Basically it doesn't offer any significant source of nutrition.Rice and almond milk are better options. If your goal is to loose weight leave the milk for babies


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Ace5high said:


> From a fitness/nutrition standpoint, there is nothing healthy or beneficial about milk. Its full of sugar, fat, its hard on the digestive system, and can cause bloating. Basically it doesn't offer any significant source of nutrition.Rice and almond milk are better options. If your goal is to loose weight leave the milk for babies


Except for the fact that it's a good source of calcium, protein (20% whey and 80% casein), potassium, phosphorus, vitamins D, B12 and A, Riboflavin and niacin.

All of these things can also come from other sources, but to say there is nothing beneficial about milk is just asinine.

Clinical studies have shown that milk increases bone density (calcium). Studies have also shown that regular milk drinkers tend to be thinner (from the protein content.) Lactose intolerant people can reduce the GI distress from milk by drinking it in small amounts. Fat and sugar can be reduced by getting lower fat milk.

I'm not a milk drinker (except in cereal, smoothies, and in cooking) but I understand its benefits and risks. The main risks come from hormones, pesticides, and low-quality milk. These can all be avoided by purchasing high quality organic milk or even going organic raw (which has its own inherent risks.)

And yes, other forms of milk (almond, soy, coconut, etc.) all have their own benefits and risks too.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

jtmartino said:


> Except for the fact that it's a good source of calcium, protein (20% whey and 80% casein), potassium, phosphorus, vitamins D, B12 and A, Riboflavin and niacin.
> 
> All of these things can also come from other sources, but to say there is nothing beneficial about milk is just asinine.


The lactose thats in mothers milk is not the same thats in cows milk, and we are the only mammal that drinks milk after 1 year of age. Humans are not able to digest cow's lactose which creates an allergic reaction in the body that causes problems like inflammation, increased cortisol levels, overgrowth of candida and bad bacteria, nasal and sinus blockage etc... Lactose is a sugar and unless bought as organic unpasteurised milk even more sugar is added to it to make it taste better. Milk is heated at high temperatures before being packaged which ruins those mineral and vitamin content.

Regarding protein; the majority of the protein in milk is useless since it has been denatured in the heating process... Hormones are given to cows including estrogen which also are found in trace amounts in milk. Cows are injected with antibiotics and trace amount of these antibiotics stay in the milk killing of beneficial bacteria in the body creating all sort of problems...

There are many other better ways to get the "listed" tiny amount of vitamins, minerals, calcium and protein thats actually healthy for you.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

you probably shouldn't believe everything that you read, because you are reading some silly stuff. nothing personal. there's just a whole industry out there based on feeding misinformation to a hungry public.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Bill in Houston said:


> you probably shouldn't believe everything that you read, because you are reading some silly stuff. nothing personal. there's just a whole industry out there based on feeding misinformation to a hungry public.


Im sure its a VERY lucrative industry convincing "the public" milk isn't GREAT for you 

Your welcome to believe whatever sounds good in your own mind, but Ill stick to the facts. If there is anyone that wants to feed misinformation to the public its those in the dairy industry that want you to buy their products...

Look at it this way. If you were drinking farmers milk fresh from organic cows themselves it is something entirely different than mass produced, hormone altered, highly refined, money making dairy industry product SOLD in your local walmart...


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Ace5high said:


> The lactose thats in mothers milk is not the same thats in cows milk, and we are the only mammal that drinks milk after 1 year of age. Humans are not able to digest cow's lactose which creates an allergic reaction in the body that causes problems like inflammation, increased cortisol levels, overgrowth of candida and bad bacteria, nasal and sinus blockage etc... Lactose is a sugar and unless bought as organic unpasteurised milk even more sugar is added to it to make it taste better. Milk is heated at high temperatures before being packaged which ruins those mineral and vitamin content.


You are severely misinformed. Lactose is lactose, period. Roughly 75% of humans become lactose intolerant after adolescence (the others exhibit lactase persistence) but being lactose intolerant does not cause an allergic reaction. Milk allergies are completely different from lactose intolerance.

In people who are lactose intolerant, the undigested lactose (a sugar) travels to the intestines where it is digested by bacteria in the gut and alters osmolarity. The bacteria digestion causes gas and the osmolarity pressure increase causes water to collect in the colon resulting in diarrhea.

Lactose intolerance = gas and diarrhea, precursors to IBS.



Ace5high said:


> Regarding protein; the majority of the protein in milk is useless since it has been denatured in the heating process...


Wrong, again (big surprise.)

_Heat may denature milk proteins. This effect is not considered a disadvantage from the nutritional point of view because it only involves changes in the specific arrangement of the casein protein. There is no breakdown of peptide linkages; therefore, casein can be considered a thermal-resistant compound. Although α-lactoalbumin is relatively heat stable, other whey proteins can be denatured as a result of heating. These denatured proteins are more digestible than their naturally occurring form because the protein's structure is loosened and enzymes can act easier (Renner, 1986).
_

http://ohioline.osu.edu/fse-fact/pdf/0003.pdf



Ace5high said:


> Hormones are given to cows including estrogen which also are found in trace amounts in milk. Cows are injected with antibiotics and trace amount of these antibiotics stay in the milk killing of beneficial bacteria in the body creating all sort of problems...


Not all cows are injected with hormones and antibiotics, which means that not all milk has these substances in it. This is ripe with fear-mongering from the uneducated.



Ace5high said:


> There are many other better ways to get the "listed" tiny amount of vitamins, minerals, calcium and protein thats actually healthy for you.


I'm sure there are. But that doesn't mean you weren't completely wrong when you said "there is nothing healthy or beneficial about milk"


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

Ace5high said:


> Milk is heated at high temperatures before being packaged which ruins those mineral and vitamin content.


Here is the thing. You are getting a lot of misinformation. Minerals absolutely cannot be destroyed in the pasteurization process. Magnesium and calcium go in, magnesium and calcium MUST come out. It's just a law of nature. This is a fact. So, if someone is willing to tell you something so obviously false, and assume you are a fool, why would you accept that insult from them, and continue to believe all the other stuff they tell you?

Maybe milk disagrees with your system. That doesn't mean that some nutjob on the internet has some kind of deep truth about milk. It just means you don't need to drink it. But for goodness sakes, why keep repeating things that you yourself have the scientific reasoning to know are false?


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

jtmartino said:


> 75% of humans become lactose intolerant after adolescence
> 
> Lactose intolerance = gas and diarrhea, precursors to IBS.


You are correct sir :thumbsup:



jtmartino said:


> "fear-mongering from the uneducated"


Really? Thats why its the Ph.d's and Dr.s making these claims... Other than the angry hordes of uneducated ******** that stop at nothing see the Milk empire burnt to the ground of course... :winker:



Bill in Houston said:


> Here is the thing. You are getting a lot of misinformation. Minerals absolutely cannot be destroyed in the pasteurization process.
> 
> Maybe milk disagrees with your system. That doesn't mean that some nutjob on the internet has some kind of deep truth about milk. It just means you don't need to drink it. But for goodness sakes, why keep repeating things that you yourself have the scientific reasoning to know are false?


Here's the thing Bill... I love milk, and I happen to be one of the few percent that is not lactose intolerant. I don't care if you two want a get your panties in a bunch over milk, but this what I can tell you is... Ive been in the professional nutritional and fitness industries for over 12 years and anyone serious about a fitness program, loosing weight, etc does not need the addition of highly processed milk in their diet. #1 Majority of people it does cause digestive issues and bloating. #2 Loaded with fat, cholesterol and sugar. #3 Casein is a poorly digestible and lower bioavailability than better protein alternatives.

If those three reasons were not enough to simply "exclude" it from your fitness program then you can start adding antibiotics and hormones etc that are found in food store milk.

Bottom line, I don't hate milk whatsoever, but to answer the OP truthfully "Milk do I really need it?" you are a couple of misinformed parrots if you think the answer is yes.

Mark Hyman, MD: Dairy: 6 Reasons You Should Avoid It at All Costs or Why Following the USDA Food Pyramid Guidelines is Bad for Your Health (VIDEO)


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

"Do you really need it?" No, but IMO milk and bananas make for the best smelling farts eva. 
But seriously, I buy organic raw milk whenever I can. So many foods are both good and bad for you. IMO, variety and moderation is the key to a good healthy diet. Casein being slowly digested and absorbed is not a bad thing, and at sometimes it is better, like before bed. I'm no doctor, nutritionist, or scientist, but while I'm sure that there are people that their bodies just don't agree with milk, think there are other things at work for the majority who believe they are lactose intolerant. Like the pasteurizing, homogenizing, and hormones and antibiotics. Or the fact that they're getting everything they need, that milk can offer, from other foods and the milk puts them over the edge for their bodies needs. 
I mean is it just me? When I was a kid I never heard of so many people being lactose intolerant, and NEVER heard of anyone being allergic to peanut butter. While I'm sure there were, it just seems to be MUCH more prevalent nowadays. Now gluten is the new trendy no-no for many. Even something like germs are/can be bad for you, but you also need some to be healthy. Also exercise, while it offers many benefits, it also has down sides. Like more wear and tear on joints. Does that mean you shouldn't cycle, swim whatever you do to stay healthy?, no, it just means make smart decisions like avoid boxing everyday and eat a good balanced diet, which IMO can include milk.
My .02


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

Ace5high said:


> Ive been in the professional nutritional and fitness industries for over 12 years.


Scariest thing you have said so far. And with that, I am out.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Bill in Houston said:


> Scariest thing you have said so far. And with that, I am out.


Oh the dramatics


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Lactose intolerance varies with your ethnicity. Persons with northern European ancestry tend to more tolerant than southern European, African more than Asian, etc.

Many Americans are now of mixed ancestry, so a generality cannot be made. Also, there is some evidence we are becoming increasingly tolerant with passing generations. Our diets are changing our genes (the notion that genetic changes are only slowly incremental over many generations is no longer valid). 

There is nothing wrong with milk. If you like it drink it. If you don't like it then don't drink it. To say it is bad for you is junk pseudoscience, no matter how many letters of the alphabet you have after your name.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Ace5high said:


> Oh the dramatics


He's not dramatic, he's right. The information I posted is common knowledge that's easily accessible online and backed up by clinical data. It's common sense. You should know better than to post something like ""there is nothing healthy or beneficial about milk".

Rather, you should have said that milk is not necessary (per the OP) and it carries some inherent risks as a lot of generic brands of milk come from cows that are treated with hormones and antibiotics. But not all milk is "contaminated" in this fashion, so if you are careful you can avoid the negative side effects of mass-produced milk. If you do happen to drink milk, you will get a nice balance of fast an slow-digesting carbs and proteins, as well as a handful of essential vitamins and minerals.

It's disappointing when "nutritionists" make statements like you did. It shows a clear lack of scientific and physiological understanding, which compromises your credibility. I don't mean to degrade you or your profession, but sweeping divisive statements like the ones you have made deserve this level of criticism.


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## 41ants (Jun 12, 2007)

Milk is for babies... Real men drink almond breeze... That is if you want to be shredded.  

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk 2


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## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> Except for the fact that it's a good source of calcium, protein (20% whey and 80% casein), potassium, phosphorus, vitamins D, B12 and A, Riboflavin and niacin.
> 
> All of these things can also come from other sources, but to say there is nothing beneficial about milk is just asinine.
> 
> ...


Some of the highlighted points may prove to be variable or incorrect. More and more, research is not proving that Ca+ has as strong a positive relationship with bone density as does that of Vit-D. Actually, there may be some evidense coming to demonstrate that high levels of Ca+ contribute to other negative issues beyond any benefit to our bones. I recall that Ca+ from low fat dairy may have an impact on lowering body fat if you are calcium deficient. It's been a few years since I read much about it so that too may have changed. Lastly, Sugar will not be reduced by getting low fat milk. In some cases it may be added to enhance the flavor and mouthfeel.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Crockpot2001 said:


> Some of the highlighted points may prove to be variable or incorrect. More and more, research is not proving that Ca+ has as strong a positive relationship with bone density as does that of Vit-D. Actually, there may be some evidense coming to demonstrate that high levels of Ca+ contribute to other negative issues beyond any benefit to our bones. I recall that Ca+ from low fat dairy may have an impact on lowering body fat if you are calcium deficient. It's been a few years since I read much about it so that too may have changed. Lastly, Sugar will not be reduced by getting low fat milk. In some cases it may be added to enhance the flavor and mouthfeel.


My statements were based upon current research in medical journals, as well as recent discussions I've had with physician colleagues of mine (I'm a physiologist working in health care). You can disagree all you want, but until you provide convincing evidence, I will not be dissuaded. Milk contains calcium, and dietary calcium is very clearly linked to bone mineral density. That is a fact.

My second statement is absolutely true also, and is unrelated to your comment about low fat milk and calcium deficiency. There is nothing debatable about the fact that milk drinkers tend to be thinner than non milk drinkers. The scientific basis for that is protein activates the satiety center and fills people up without adding caloric excess that would come from something like a soda. Pretty straightforward.

Regarding the sugar comment - you are correct, however total calories will be decreased in low fat milk. Since a vast majority of the concern with sugar is based on calorie concerns, they can be interchangeable in my statement, i.e. "Fat and _calories_can be reduced by getting lower fat milk." It could be my mistake for assuming he was talking about calories and not strictly sugar, but I believe the message was the same.


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## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> My statements were based upon current research in medical journals, as well as recent discussions I've had with physician colleagues of mine (I'm a physiologist working in health care). You can disagree all you want, but until you provide convincing evidence, I will not be dissuaded. Milk contains calcium, and dietary calcium is very clearly linked to bone mineral density. That is a fact.
> 
> My second statement is absolutely true also, and is unrelated to your comment about low fat milk and calcium deficiency. There is nothing debatable about the fact that milk drinkers tend to be thinner than non milk drinkers. The scientific basis for that is protein activates the satiety center and fills people up without adding caloric excess that would come from something like a soda. Pretty straightforward.
> 
> Regarding the sugar comment - you are correct, however total calories will be decreased in low fat milk. Since a vast majority of the concern with sugar is based on calorie concerns, they can be interchangeable in my statement, i.e. "Fat and _calories_can be reduced by getting lower fat milk." It could be my mistake for assuming he was talking about calories and not strictly sugar, but I believe the message was the same.


I need to re-read my comments when I return. Several of your comments take my response as if I were stating you were entirely wrong. I thought I worded it in such a way as to not convey that. I respond later.


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## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> My statements were based upon current research in medical journals, as well as recent discussions I've had with physician colleagues of mine (I'm a physiologist working in health care). You can disagree all you want, but until you provide convincing evidence, I will not be dissuaded. Milk contains calcium, and dietary calcium is very clearly linked to bone mineral density. That is a fact.
> 
> My second statement is absolutely true also, and is unrelated to your comment about low fat milk and calcium deficiency. There is nothing debatable about the fact that milk drinkers tend to be thinner than non milk drinkers. The scientific basis for that is protein activates the satiety center and fills people up without adding caloric excess that would come from something like a soda. Pretty straightforward.
> 
> Regarding the sugar comment - you are correct, however total calories will be decreased in low fat milk. Since a vast majority of the concern with sugar is based on calorie concerns, they can be interchangeable in my statement, i.e. "Fat and _calories_can be reduced by getting lower fat milk." It could be my mistake for assuming he was talking about calories and not strictly sugar, but I believe the message was the same.


The concern over calcium supplementation is related to high levels and the potential for cardiovascular harm (debatable). These levels would be above those found naturally in dairy products. Conversations with our pharmacy leader and physicians expressed this concern. These conversations both in and out of our center are in the context of folks outside of a normal, rather healthy diet and lifestyle. Past articles I read prior to about 2008 were trending strongly towards the favor of Vit-D and in some cases questioned hyper-supplementation of Ca+ in the absence of Vit-D which is understandable. All that said, I don't debate the efficacy of dairy as a part of healthy bone density so long as sodium, protein, and saturated fat intakes do not put the subject at higher risk than the benefits. In my comment the importance of Vitamin D was overstated until solid research proves otherwise.

I was NOT debating that milk drinkers may tend be thinner. Your comment response appears to be based on a Protein and satiety standpoint. My comment was about Ca+ as a prompt for higher fecal fat amounts resulting in lower total fat/kcal storage.

Regarding the sugar point, my comment was what it was, nothing but stating that sugar is not necessarily reduced in low fat milk. Contextualizing it was not needed.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

jtmartino;9592681My second statement is absolutely true also said:


> I know quite a few vegans (athletic and non) that would readily discount this statement.
> 
> Is it the protein or the liquid that fills people up? I like to drink water with meals to fill myself up . . .


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

GTscoob said:


> I know quite a few vegans (athletic and non) that would readily discount this statement.
> 
> Is it the protein or the liquid that fills people up? I like to drink water with meals to fill myself up . . .


They are a small subset of the total population. The studies I'm referring to with that second point are meta-analyses, which I think warrant consideration, but should not be construed as clinical fact.

Bottom line is that out of 20,000 people, those who drink milk will tend to be thinner than those who don't. Physiologists and physicians have attributed this to the fact that non-milk drinkers usually consume beverages lacking in protein. The protein helps to make the person feel more full.

But all this said, I don't drink milk outside of cereal. And even then I tend to prefer non-dairy alternatives like soy and almond simply because I like the taste, and I understand the inherent risks with most milk.


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## leesrt (Jul 16, 2012)

I think if we all went back to breast feeding we'd have less war.

Sent via mental telepathy.


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