# Subarus - do they suck?



## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

We're looking to replace my wife's car with something that can handle light bike hauling duty (heh, here's the "bike" part) so we don't have to take the big truck everywhere.

Anyway, we took a look at an '08 Impreza wagon. Nice commuter size, decent mileage, kind of generic looking but not bad. Not exactly sure which model but it wasn't a WRX. Conclusion? Nice 4-banger and right off the line I thought it performed well. At speed, the auto trans seems all wrong, upshifting early and very pokey to down shift. Handling feels like a wet sponge with severe body lean even with mild maneuvering.

Ok, that's out. Next is an '08 Outback (again, not sure what model but it did have the 2.5L non-turbo). Handling is a little better but not much, more like damp sponge, and body lean still bad. Transmission seemed exactly the same as above but the whole thing just felt underpowered. Raw power isn't that important because we want decent mileage with regular gas but this seemed to be pushing the lower limit.

What I'm looking for from you guys is something like "Everyone knows the A and B versions handle poorly, you need to try X and Y". I think the dealer I visited was trying to push certain versions and was intentionally vague about what they were since they didn't seem to match anything from Subuaru.com. Of course, another answer might be "Yeah, handling sucks but they're worth it for the sweet AWD system".


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## Jiffycake (Sep 22, 2005)

yeah, get a manual.. subaru autos suck


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Is the WRX out of the question? Mine is a kick in the pants.

I'm not too hot for the '08's though. I hear you can get a great deal on an '07 if you can find one at a dealership.


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

Nat said:


> Is the WRX out of the question? Mine is a kick in the pants.
> 
> I'm not too hot for the '08's though. I hear you can get a great deal on an '07 if you can find one at a dealership.


WRX is probably out of the question, especially so if they don't come in auto trans. which is a requirement for my wife. Have you compared the WRX to a non-WRX? I'm curious how the suspension performance compares since I found the non surprisingly bad.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Mr.Bob said:


> Ok, that's out. Next is an '08 Outback (again, not sure what model but it did have the 2.5L non-turbo). Handling is a little better but not much, more like damp sponge, and body lean still bad. Transmission seemed exactly the same as above but the whole thing just felt underpowered. Raw power isn't that important because we want decent mileage with regular gas but this seemed to be pushing the lower limit.


Of course there's crazy body lean, it's because it's an outback and it's got suspension that is necessary for non-improved surfaces.

I drove some foresters (we had two of them in the family for a while)and I could NOT stand them and the body lean. The car WOULD stick to a turn like glue, but it would lean way over and freak me out. I think the fact that it was AWD and it wouldn't "let go" as easily also created more of a false sense of security. Due to the higher CG compared to other subaru models, there is more rollover tendacy (although it's not as bad as an SUV) and the AWD seems to let you build up far greater forces than normal when cornering. I also hated the clutch on the forester for the wierd "resistance point" in the pedal, it wasn't a linear feel.

Get a legacy GT, or Impreza WRX, those won't have crazy body roll and will be far more responsive. If it's sport handling your looking for, that's what you should get.

We had a legacy outback ll bean 3.0, that was a very nice car, somewhat sporty, but again it's higher up with suspension that is pretty soft, so it ain't going to corner like a legacy GT or anything. I wouldn't have any problem getting that as a family car, it's super-nice, smooth tranny, real smooth and nice engine, sporty enough, etc.

If you have to get an auto, go with the legacy.

You also partly have to understand how much traction there is with AWD. Unless you've taken it into a turn and broken it loose a bit (hear wheels screaching), I wouldn't just it too harsly, as they just "stick" so much better than other cars, and even when it starts to break loose, it still tracks well.

I can't say about the regular legacy much, so I don't know if it's got a stiffer or softer suspension relatively, but it's a family car. I do know that if you're looking at an outback you are not looking for a very stiff ride. An audi all-road or volvo XC might be stiffer with less lean, but they'd also be poorer off-road. If you're going to get that kind of a car it's usually because you need some of that capability.

I've heard for 08 that they softened the suspension in the imprezas, it doesn't handle quite as well as the 07.

You could always buy stiffer springs aftermarket?


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

Thanks guys, this is exactly the sort of feedback I was hoping to get.


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## tk1971 (Aug 10, 2007)

My wife loves her Forester XT (with turbo auto trans and the extremly large moonroof). The extra tall-ness of the car (the rear cargo area) makes it very convenient for her to buy her gardening supplies. It's powerful enough to be able to pull 2000 lbs with the auto trannie (for our box trailer carrying fertilizer, mulch, etc). I had a WRX sedan until last year (in manual trans) before I upgraded to something a little sportier. The WRX is much more fun to drive. A friend of mine has a WRX wagan with an auto trans and he seems to like it. If you "tinker" with cars, the WRX has more potential than a Forester. We've rented the Outback off and on and didn't care for it. Back window areas are prone to blind spots. It's also bigger and feels it. Never drove the the XT (trubo) version, but we didn't like the outback chasis period. Then again, we're short and small, so we like small cars. Keep test driving, and you figure out which car your wife and you prefer.


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## VpointVick (Apr 15, 2004)

They're trying to appeal to a larger market by softening up the suspension, but with Subaru's large aftermarket you can fix that body roll for $300-600.

The 4eat in the Impreza and the lower model Legacy/Outback is not very impressive, try the 5eat in the Outback XT or L.L. Bean 3.0R, or the Legacy GT. The LGT will have stiffer suspension from the factory as well.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

There is a big aftermarket support setup. Anyway, after owning Hondas and Nissans, I finally bought my first Subaru- a Forester in 2006. I love it. It holds the road well and body lean isn't too bad. The AWD system is fantastic. Only the Audi has another great AWD sytem but it's a lot more money and not as reliable. 

So after a tons of test drives, I went with the regular Forester. After 23K miles, I'm still digging it. I love the space, the seat comfort, (not as deeply dished as others) and the AWD. The back seats fold completely flat and here in CO, I have been getting around 28.5-30.6 miles per gallon (I chk every tank) after break-in WITH a hitch-mouted and roof mounted bike rack (bike usually is on the back rack; not the roof). Before 12K miles, I was getting 25-26 MPG.

I take it offroad sometimes and the AWD and extra clearance helps to get to some trailheads where the access road is just a bit too much for a regular sedan. I actually went to an Auto for the first time and I would not go back to a manual unless I got a sports car (fat chance of that happening). If I had to do it again, I'd get another Forester or maybe an Outback.


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## jred321 (Aug 12, 2007)

i'm in agreement with what has been said so far. it's just the "base" models that you drove that are like that, not all models. i'd say give the wrx a try (even though the 08 is hideous). i've driven a legacy gt as well and body roll wasn't bad. also, like mentioned, keep in mind that you can change your handling to meet your needs in almost all subarus, especially the wrx where you can go anywhere from the stock version to the full rally spec suspension if you want. subarus are good cars and they're everywhere in the northeast with all different types of people driving them, don't give up on them quite yet


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

The suspension/wheel articulation is very good offroad. That does result in a bit of body roll but I don't find it to be bad enough to warrant a fix. However some guys want to make them handle tighter and put on thicker swaybars. It's an inexpensive fix (maybe even under $100) and quite effective. I like how it handles offroad so I kept the original swaybar. I am thinking about putting on some better tires though. I do like this Forester a lot. I'm definitely becoming a wagon kinda guy. They handle and drive like sedans but have the room and practicality of a SUV with the benefit of full-time AWD and 30 mpg to boot. I sold my 2002 Pathfinder to get the Forester. The Pathy was also pretty nice (modded springs/shocks so little body roll) but the mileage sucked. I felt like I was burning gas for nothing. I was gettting 17 mpg average.


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## imridingmybike (Jan 16, 2005)

Flyer said:


> The suspension/wheel articulation is very good offroad. That does result in a bit of body roll but I don't find it to be bad enough to warrant a fix. However some guys want to make them handle tighter and put on thicker swaybars. It's an inexpensive fix (maybe even under $100) and quite effective. I like how it handles offroad so I kept the original swaybar. I am thinking about putting on some better tires though. I do like this Forester a lot. I'm definitely becoming a wagon kinda guy. They handle and drive like sedans but have the room and practicality of a SUV with the benefit of full-time AWD and 30 mpg to boot. I sold my 2002 Pathfinder to get the Forester. The Pathy was also pretty nice (modded springs/shocks so little body roll) but the mileage sucked. I felt like I was burning gas for nothing. I was gettting 17 mpg average.


You get 30 mpg?? The best I've ever gotten is 26.5. Lately 24 - and it just had a tune up.:madman:


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

After close to 15K miles, I switched to synthetic and sinec then, I have consistently been getting good mileage. I started out around 28.5 and now am over 30. When it was brand new, I was getting 23.5-25.5. I drive conservatively when it comes to accelerating and braking though I usually go 5-10 over the speed limit on the highway.


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## psychobilly808 (Aug 26, 2007)

I love my 2006 forester , well not exactly mine, but you get the point.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Try....*



imridingmybike said:


> You get 30 mpg?? The best I've ever gotten is 26.5. Lately 24 - and it just had a tune up.:madman:


Short shifting


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## imridingmybike (Jan 16, 2005)

pimpbot said:


> Short shifting


Meaning what? Higher gears?


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

Meaning to shift gears a little earlier to keep the revs a bit lower. 

Accelerating nice and gently will do wonders too.


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## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

I've got 13" under my diffs, 20 year old struts, and no sway bars. Try that for body roll. More three-wheel-motion than Dr. Dre.


The big (read: only) advantage of an auto tranny in an EJ car is slow speed offroad stuff. You can spin the torque converter madly instead of lighting up your clutch.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Yep...*



Low_Rider said:


> Meaning to shift gears a little earlier to keep the revs a bit lower.
> 
> Accelerating nice and gently will do wonders too.


One trick is to control your speed with gear changes. Use full throttle (except in first gear) and upshift at like 2000 RPMs or higher as you need more pull. Not so low you lug the engine in the next gear. Usually the lug point is about 1.5x idle. You won't accelerate very fast, but you won't waste energy needlessly sucking vacuum in the engine's intake manifold.

For max acceleration, up shift when you will hit the torque peak in the next gear, but this uses the most gas.


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## tekkamaki (Mar 3, 2007)

You cant beat a Subaru for the price and slick road handling. its a bonus that they run forever. I would love an outback wagon but with kid #2 on the way looks like I will need a minivan at least the Honda oddysy's are nice. My best advice is to buy a wagon not a sedan, My wagon us the ultimate utility vehicle.

02legacy sedan 60k
92 legacy wagon 285k


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## Cyclon (Jul 17, 2007)

I love my Subaru Impreza WRX wagon. It handles tarmac, dirt, and snow great. I would take the Subaru over the truck unless I needed the clearance to 4-wheel to get somewhere.


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## Verewolf (Oct 13, 2005)

We've had 5 Subarus: Impreza, Outback Sport, Legacy and 2 Foresters.
All automatics. Never a problem. Excellent vehicles.
Will continue to buy Subarus. Great cars!


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## JIJO (Jul 11, 2005)

I was a Honda and Toyota guy up till the purchase of my '05 Legacy GT sedan (automatic). The 5EAT is a little laggy off the line, but it's got a lot of workable torque throughout the RPM band.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

I'm digging my forester xt. Its nearly as fun as a sports car on road AND i don't worry nearly as much on the forest roads.


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## JIJO (Jul 11, 2005)

^^^^^^^^^

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, Forester XT...

I'm trying to convince my wife to pick up a Forester XT Sports.


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## MJasko (Nov 14, 2006)

*My Subaru Outback Sport (OBS) is great*

I own a 2004 OBS (wagon) with the automatic tranny. Bought it to replace a 4Runner, which was overkill here in the urbanized East Coast. Bought mine in August for $19K. Very reliable so far at 62,000 miles. I'm 6'-7" tall, and the height-adjustable driver's seat and no upper windshield dark tinting sold me. Have rooftop Yakima racks for 4 bikes, a full underbody skid plate from Primitive Off-Road, dedicated winter snow tires, and an auxillary light bar on my front bumper, again by Primitive. I commute 45+ miles a day, and average 25 mpg.

My thought would be that IF I only had 1 vehicle, it'd be this or another Suby. If I could get 2 vehicles, I'd buy a older 4wd Toyota pickup for poking around in the backwoods.

Hope this helps. But know for me a $19K vehicle vs a more expensive one means more $$$ available for newer bikes rather than vehicles that are overkill for the conditions I drive in.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

*Amazing stat and Subaru Opinion*

I saw the stats for car sales in CO for the first 6 months of '07' Of course, the big three pickups are the largest selling vehicles(Ford, Dodge, Chevy),but the #1 selling car in Colorado is the Subaru Legacy. More Legacys than Civics, Camrys, Accords...

I was shocked.

BTW, my two cents. I had an '02 WRX Wagon. It was a fun car, but after 100K miles it started costing me a lot of money. Power steering, brakes, brakes, brakes. And the 1st gear synchro was pretty much gone, which was a big problem because it had no torque. Once you were in second, you had to pray you didn't need to get back into 1st while moving. Then the dealer hosed the car while doing the timing belt change and it took no fewer than seven trips to get it right.

I was also looking at a clutch, which is about a grand all in on a WRX. I got rid of it.

I also rented an '07 Forester, brand new (under 300 miles on it). I knew I would hate the auto transmission, and I did, but what shocked me was how soft the suspension was. No way.

I had the same experience with an '06 base Legacy I had as a dealer loaner. What a marshmallow.

I ended up with a steal on a 2006 Mazdaspeed6. An awesome car. It is AWD, but not in a forest road way, although I live on a dirt road and it is fine with it. I wish Mazda made an AWD Mazdaspeed3. If I could live without AWD I'd look at one of those.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Just goes to show you how personal a car decision can be to some. I like my Forester more than my 90 Maxima, 92 Maxima, 96 Accord, 88 Ranger, 02 Pathfinder, and 04 Durango. That's probably because of seat comfort and practicality. I only prefer it slightly to my 02 Pathfinder but it does have a softer suspension. I can firm it up but don't drive crazy anymore (and it still holds the road pretty well with abrupt moves) so I'll wait till I can find some slightly stiffer springs. However, it sure beats my Pathy's 17 MPG, which (since I don't tow anything) was a bit silly. Yeah the AWD system on Subies rock, which is why people in CO love them. 

I woud buy practically anything that was bike and dog friendly but no gas guzzling SUVs or cars for me anymore. I get 30 MPG now and using twice as much gas would be a bit too irresponsible from a ecological standpoint. Cool factor- don't care at all anymore. Not being cool is pretty cool


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

I don't have all wheel drive, just front wheel, but I do get 50mpg when I set the cruise control at 65 MPH with the A/C running. Tank holds 16.5 gallons of diesel, I have 725 miles on this tank, trip from L.A. to Mammoth Mtn and home with no fillup. Car is reaching midlife crisis, but I do most all my own wrenching, synthetic motor oil and filter changes every 10k miles.

VW TDI Jetta. Turbo diesel, super efficient Available in the wagon model too. They do pavement great, just don't off road them on rocky roads with that aluminum oil pan, crack it and you might be buying a new $6k motor instead of a new mountain bike. It is as green as you want it to be, can run B100 biodiesel in it too, but the stuff will eat the seals in the injector pump if they don't get the methanol out... don't ask me how I know. 

My bike, in the cavernous trunk.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

That's great RandyBoy. It's pretty cool that you have such a fuel-efficient car. How many miles do you have on it?

I prefer AWD and a bit of clearance for rocks but man, I would love to own something that got that sort of mileage. Maybe the next couple of years will have Subaru offering a hybrid or more fuel efficient vehicle or VW offering the wagon in AWD.


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

I have a couple friends with TDI wagons and I'm always blown away when they tell me what kind of mileage they get. I really wish more manufactures would offer diesels as an option in the US.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Flyer said:


> That's great RandyBoy. It's pretty cool that you have such a fuel-efficient car. How many miles do you have on it?
> 
> I prefer AWD and a bit of clearance for rocks but man, I would love to own something that got that sort of mileage. Maybe the next couple of years will have Subaru offering a hybrid or more fuel efficient vehicle or VW offering the wagon in AWD.


1. You need BTU laden fuel per gallon, diesel is superior about 25% more calories per gallon.
2. You need a thermodynamically efficient engine, again a diesel is 20% more efficient

The math is simple. Learning to drive a diesel isn't, old gasser habits die hard.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Mr.Bob said:


> I have a couple friends with TDI wagons and I'm always blown away when they tell me what kind of mileage they get. I really wish more manufactures would offer diesels as an option in the US.


Let me put it this way, going from L.A. to Evanston, WY on my way to Yellowstone, 57mpg last year in June. All over Yellowstone, I did the speed limit of 45mph and saw a tank yield 66mpg. I've done several 1000 mile tanks between fillups, tank holds 20 gallon in a 1996 passat tdi. It's all in learning how to drive the engine, and drive the peak torque at 1900 rpms, for tremendous fuel efficiency, at rpms most gas drivers aren't used to shifting at.


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## bikedogs (Mar 18, 2007)

We bought a new Forrester back in 03 and it's been a great commuter/bike hauler. If that's what you want it for go for it. They'll run forever, get pretty good gas mileage. So maybe they don't handle and run like a sports car, they're not a sports car. It's an AWD wagon. We've loaded it to the gills with camping gear and bikes many times and it's been great! Subaru's rock!!!!


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

bikedogs said:


> So maybe they don't handle and run like a sports car, they're not a sports car. It's an AWD wagon.


We're not looking for sports car handling, just something that's at least on par with entry level econo-boxes from other relatively famous Japanese auto makers . I fully understand the goal of the Suburau suspension and I'm sure it's awesome in it's element but, in the end, it isn't what we're looking for. At least not at the price points we can afford.

Anyway, there was a lot of great advice in this thread and I thank everyone who took the time to chime in.


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## jred321 (Aug 12, 2007)

you mentioned element, have you looked at one of those? they make them in AWD and if you like the styling (it's hit or miss) they could be another good option


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

jred321 said:


> you mentioned element, have you looked at one of those? they make them in AWD and if you like the styling (it's hit or miss) they could be another good option


Yeah, I agree, I thought the Element was a great option. Wife hated it. Oh well .

I think we'll end up with an 07/08 rav4. I wasn't expecting that going in but it really is a solid package overall.


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## paranoid56 (Jul 26, 2007)

bikedogs said:


> So maybe they don't handle and run like a sports car, they're not a sports car. It's an AWD wagon.


Sure it is  i have tracked my wrx wagon many times  with a little work it handles great 

I have the impreza wrx wagon and love it. on long trips i can get 29mpg, with three bikes in the back. i go camping in it, go snowboarding in it. everything. this is my second subaru, only reason i got ride of the first one was that i needed a wagon. the forester XT might be nice for the extra room though. 
bottom line, subarus dont suck 

Shane


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

paranoid56 said:


> Sure it is  i have tracked my wrx wagon many times  with a little work it handles great
> 
> I have the impreza wrx wagon and love it. on long trips i can get 29mpg, with three bikes in the back. i go camping in it, go snowboarding in it. everything. this is my second subaru, only reason i got ride of the first one was that i needed a wagon. the forester XT might be nice for the extra room though.
> bottom line, subarus dont suck
> ...


I think bikedogs was talking about a Forrester, not a WRX. Have you seen pics of the Japan issue STI Forrester? I wouldn't mind driving one of those at all.


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## HarryCallahan (Nov 2, 2004)

Mr.Bob said:


> We're not looking for sports car handling, just something that's at least on par with entry level econo-boxes from other relatively famous Japanese auto makers . I fully understand the goal of the Suburau suspension and I'm sure it's awesome in it's element but, in the end, it isn't what we're looking for. At least not at the price points we can afford.
> 
> Anyway, there was a lot of great advice in this thread and I thank everyone who took the time to chime in.


I'm jumping in here late, but wanted to share some impressions with you. I've rented Subarus for a week at a shot on my last two winter ski trips. Both had great handling, relative to my family vehicles (older Toyota 4x4 p/u, Toyota Sienna mini van, Toyota corrola).

Last winter I rented a Tribeca. The ride was firm and the handling was precise. Only bummer was I could only eke 21 mpg out of it. But my driving was a mix of high speed long runs and cold start short runs up and down the ski hill.

The previous year, I had one of the little Subaru wagons; I don't recall the model, but it was low. (Aren't the Foresters the tall boxy ones?) The ride was nice, quiet inside, plenty of pep on the road and in the mountains, and I got 30 mpg without trying. And the handling was crisp and sure footed. I was easily driving around 4wd pickups on snow covered roads.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nat said:


> I think bikedogs was talking about a Forrester, not a WRX. Have you seen pics of the Japan issue STI Forrester? I wouldn't mind driving one of those at all.


Bleh, it still looks like a forester.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> Bleh, it still looks like a forester.


Ha! Good one...

Here's where I saw it:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1342539

It was in the U.K., not Japan.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Some of those Subie owners are fanatical about modding and driving their Subies in some crazy terrain. The ground effect stuff looks terrible but I like the Forester and the Outback- even the way they look. I don't like theWRX look but they all look better than a Hummer to me


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## Carbon Ken (Mar 31, 2005)

I just picked up a 2007 Legacy GT sedan and I love it! It's got full folding seats in the back (unlike all the Legacy sedans prior to 2007) and it's very roomy and luxurious.

With the SI drive, I can easily get 27mpg on the highways while the S# mode allows me to burst to 60mph in under 6 seconds. It's just a shame that they won't be making the wagons anymore...


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## JIJO (Jul 11, 2005)

^^^^^^

Great car.

I'm rocking a 2005 LGT sedan with a Cobb AP V2 + RalliTEK protune stage1 map. Hopefully by next weekend it'll be at Stage2!


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> I saw the stats for car sales in CO for the first 6 months of '07' Of course, the big three pickups are the largest selling vehicles(Ford, Dodge, Chevy),but the #1 selling car in Colorado is the Subaru Legacy. More Legacys than Civics, Camrys, Accords...
> I was shocked.


Subarus are extremely popular where I live too. Central & near north in Ontario, Canada. Lots of winter driving conditions. Their AWD is by far the best. Can't recall last time I saw a rusty Subie, and lots of older ones around. Often when we pull into a trailhead for biking,skiing,etc, Subarus are the dominant brand in the parking lot. Heated seats are also a big plus around here :thumbsup:


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## JIJO (Jul 11, 2005)

Carbon Ken said:


> I just picked up a 2007 Legacy GT sedan and I love it! It's got full folding seats in the back (unlike all the Legacy sedans prior to 2007) and it's very roomy and luxurious.
> 
> With the SI drive, I can easily get 27mpg on the highways while the S# mode allows me to burst to 60mph in under 6 seconds. It's just a shame that they won't be making the wagons anymore...


Ken, are you on legacygt.com?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Carbon Ken said:


> I just picked up a 2007 Legacy GT sedan and I love it! It's got full folding seats in the back (unlike all the Legacy sedans prior to 2007) and it's very roomy and luxurious.
> 
> With the SI drive, I can easily get 27mpg on the highways while the S# mode allows me to burst to 60mph in under 6 seconds. It's just a shame that they won't be making the wagons anymore...


That's nice. We had a 3.0 H6 outback and it was real nice. I really like the new legacy spec B with that engine. I'm sure that GT is a blast to drive. The cool thing is how you can make it significantly faster with some simple bolt-ons or added management. I wouldn't mind one if I needed a car bigger than my WRX.


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## tk1971 (Aug 10, 2007)

Wait until you try the Forester XT with the Racing Brake 4 Pot fronts:

http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merc...roduct_Code=RB2010-111-411&Category_Code=4900

They fit the stock wheels and along with Goodridge stainless steel brake lines, will give the Forester serious stopping power (very close to a stock STI). My wife loves them, as long as she doesn't know how much they really cost, that is...


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## imridingmybike (Jan 16, 2005)

Jayem said:


> That's nice. We had a 3.0 H6 outback and it was real nice. I really like the new legacy spec B with that engine. I'm sure that GT is a blast to drive. The cool thing is how you can make it significantly faster with some simple bolt-ons or added management. I wouldn't mind one if I needed a car bigger than my WRX.


Any simple perfomance enhancements for foresters?


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## Bluebug32 (Jan 13, 2006)

Bought an '07 Outback Sport in July and I love it! Decent (not excellent) MPG, but I can live with it for the AWD. Handles well, fast and holds tight corners. And, I can fit my bike in the back without taking the front wheel off. Big plus!


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Flyer said:


> That's great RandyBoy. It's pretty cool that you have such a fuel-efficient car. How many miles do you have on it?


246k on a 96 passat TDI and 174k on the 98 Jetta. As I said, the Passat is through the midlife crisis, the Jetta is almost through it.. They're great cars if you do 15 to 20k + miles per year. If you putt them around town, they never fully warm up and get that uber MPG they are capable of. More likely that you see 35 around town, 42 hiway. Does come in a 5 speed manual and a 6 speed DSG (shiftless for the driver, put it in "D" but it's not a true automatic, just doesn't have a clutch pedal, has a computer brain doing the clutch for you, you do need to relearn how to drive it in DSG. Have a Vw Dealer explain it to you or do a search on VW DSG on Google.

http://cars.about.com/od/thingsyouneedtoknow/a/ag_howDSGworks.htm

If you drive 85, all the MPG in any car goes out the window, set the cruise at 70, and you'll get better than the EPA, set it at 65 at you just might see high 40's MPG. The key is relearning how to shift, it's not a gas motor, you drive the torque, at low rpms, not the horsepower at high RPMS.


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## Carbon Ken (Mar 31, 2005)

JIJO said:


> Ken, are you on legacygt.com?


Yes, I am! I use the username Spicytuna on that forum.


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## Carbon Ken (Mar 31, 2005)

Jayem said:


> That's nice. We had a 3.0 H6 outback and it was real nice. I really like the new legacy spec B with that engine. I'm sure that GT is a blast to drive. The cool thing is how you can make it significantly faster with some simple bolt-ons or added management. I wouldn't mind one if I needed a car bigger than my WRX.


The WRX is a great car but I couldn't find a left-over 2007 in the combination I wanted and I didn't like the looks of the 2008. The 2007 Legacy I bought was actually the last remaining white Legacy in North America. I had to drive 1300 miles to get it but that's a different story.

I'm just waiting for Cobb to crack the SI drive and come out with an Accessport for the 2007+. Once that arrives, I'll go for the downpipe and start saving for a twin scroll setup. 

In the meantime, I'm about to grab a set of gold wheels for my car. Probably a pair of JDM STi wheels or BBS's...


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## JIJO (Jul 11, 2005)

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh good stuff.

I'm "Jim_KT".


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Carbon Ken said:


> The WRX is a great car but I couldn't find a left-over 2007 in the combination I wanted and I didn't like the looks of the 2008. The 2007 Legacy I bought was actually the last remaining white Legacy in North America. I had to drive 1300 miles to get it but that's a different story.
> 
> I'm just waiting for Cobb to crack the SI drive and come out with an Accessport for the 2007+. Once that arrives, I'll go for the downpipe and start saving for a twin scroll setup.
> 
> In the meantime, I'm about to grab a set of gold wheels for my car. Probably a pair of JDM STi wheels or BBS's...


Cobb Downpipe + stage 2 + spt intake (doesn't really do much but add sound) + small turbo wastegate adjustment = holy crap my car is fast now, especially since it's getting colder. I have the rest of the TBE exhaust comming today, but it's already kicking me in the seat way more than before.


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## shortbus901 (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't know much about the newer ones but mine is still going strong after 22 years:










My sister also has a '99-ish Outback that hasn't given her any serious problems that I know of.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Now I see what sired the XT and the Baja


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

Carbon Ken said:


> The WRX is a great car but I couldn't find a left-over 2007 in the combination I wanted and I didn't like the looks of the 2008.


I'm liking the 08 WRX hatch.just fine... :thumbsup: Would LOVE to have one
_







_


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## Rotmilky (Aug 18, 2007)

Awesome, I haven't seen a brat in years. Does it have the rear facing seats with joystick handles in the back? When I was a kid, I thought that was the coolest vehicle on the planet because of those seats.


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## Carbon Ken (Mar 31, 2005)

Jayem said:


> Cobb Downpipe + stage 2 + spt intake (doesn't really do much but add sound) + small turbo wastegate adjustment = holy crap my car is fast now, especially since it's getting colder. I have the rest of the TBE exhaust comming today, but it's already kicking me in the seat way more than before.


That sounds awesome!

I'll definitely go Stage 2 when I get the chance. I'm starting to get used to the acceleration already and I want more!

In the meantime, I just ordered a set of gold JDM forged STi wheels for my car. I'll post pics when they're mounted.


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## shortbus901 (Jun 19, 2006)

Rotmilky said:


> Awesome, I haven't seen a brat in years. Does it have the rear facing seats with joystick handles in the back? When I was a kid, I thought that was the coolest vehicle on the planet because of those seats.


Yuppers, they're great for tailgating! (don't ask about the Mazda sticker, the guy that had it before me had that on there)


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## VpointVick (Apr 15, 2004)

I'd love to find a Brat in that kind of shape. That's awesome.

The rust monster has gotten many of the ones around here.(NC)


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## 2melow (Jan 5, 2004)

Mr.Bob said:


> What I'm looking for from you guys is something like "Everyone knows the A and B versions handle poorly, you need to try X and Y". Of course, another answer might be "Yeah, handling sucks but they're worth it for the sweet AWD system".


We have a 1998 Forester, and although it might not be the fastest car on the road it gets from point A to B comfortably and with good gas mileage. I have a Yakima rack which hooks up to the factory bars in 3 minutes so I typically keep the rack off.

We bought the car from my mother -in-law w/ 39K and it now has 98K so it's been in the family and well taken care of and arounf for almost 10 years. The only thing other than oil changes have been the head gasket/crank seals/timing belt at 72,000 miles. $470 bucks. According to our mechanic, ALL subaru's have this problem and will be serviced anywhere from 15K to 150K. Basically, he said if subaru's didn't have the seal/gasket problem...he'd have to pick other cars to service instead. My other car is a saab, so it seems to need $500 of work every 10,000 miles if I add up receipts.

We average 22-24mpg city and 29 hwy with the racks off. I can make it from Fort Collins to Pagosa Springs CO on 1 tank of gas. Plus you can take if off road. We've forded 2 foot creeks driving up Pearl Pass and made it as far up as I could with my old Pathfinder. We like to "primitive car camp" I guess you can call it. With a 3 year old and 5 month old it's easy to do.

If we were to buy a newer Subie - we'd pick up the turbocharged Forster. The WRX guys in this area said that's the subie to get because you get double the room and can still mod the snot out of them and take them off road. These cars are amazing if you have snow on the ground during the winter. I've pulled out my neighbors Ford Ranger which he couldn't get out of his driveway and was able to crawl through 20" of snow which my other neighbor got stuck on. Maybe we just have killer tires..but who know they are little champs.

Hope that helps.

Brett


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## Sheik Yerbouti (Sep 13, 2007)

I love my 04 Forester XT, and it's gotten me through some very long drives through very heavy snow. Just don't like the gas mileage, that's about the only fault I have with it, but I bought that when I chose the turbo.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

What type of mileage are you getting?


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## Sheik Yerbouti (Sep 13, 2007)

~20 MPG, a little over, sometimes 22. My commute is 40miles and 95% highway. I've learned to keep it below 70mph, it's helped improve my mileage. I've only used synth since I got it new, and *HAVE* to put premium gas in it per the manual:madman: :madman: :madman: 
But I love it, just rolled to 80k, and I am never really fearful of any snowbound roads. It's taken me up to Stratton, VT on some icy 1 1/2 lane backcountry roads, and never wavered.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Most of us WRX guys approach 30mpg on the highway. The city is simply up to you as far as how bad or good you make it.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> Most of us WRX guys approach 30mpg on the highway. The city is simply up to you as far as how bad or good you make it.


Somehow I'm still closer to 20mpg on the highway! It's as if there's a huge magnet just sucking my foot into the gas pedal. I can't help it! 4.5 months of having this car and it's still a kick in my pants, and I haven't even done any mods other than the cat-back.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Got the sti intercooler.

The mods continue. It's hard to stop.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Sheik Yerbouti said:


> I love my 04 Forester XT, and it's gotten me through some very long drives through very heavy snow. Just don't like the gas mileage, that's about the only fault I have with it, but I bought that when I chose the turbo.


Nice. Have you gotten your wagon on a dyno?


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## kimguroo (Dec 26, 2006)

shortbus901 said:


> I don't know much about the newer ones but mine is still going strong after 22 years:


I got my subaru baja about 4 years ago. I did not have any problem so far.
subaru makes very reliable cars:thumbsup:
I like your brat and Hopefully, I will be able to drive it 18 more years


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Those Subie Turbos are addictive. When I was test driving, I drove two. Right then, my gf and I knew I coulld not let myself buy one. I had come off years of riding fast streetbikes and allong with my group, we used to just ride too fast. A few times of hitting 150-160 and we became desentitized to it. I had to protect me from myself so I went into Grandma mode and bought the NA version. Every time I saw a Turbo Subie, I lusted after it and wanted to trade up. After a year and a half, I'm over it (almost). 

They are so hard to drive slowly. I can easily see why your mileage isn't the best


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## MartinS (Jan 31, 2004)

Mr.Bob said:


> WRX is probably out of the question, especially so if they don't come in auto trans. which is a requirement for my wife. Have you compared the WRX to a non-WRX? I'm curious how the suspension performance compares since I found the non surprisingly bad.


I have a couple of friends who race rally with sube's, their recommendation for my wifes Impreza was to replace the rear stabilizer bar with the Japanese version - it's larger diameter and much stiffer and cost only $150 - tightens up the handling noticeably. Apparently they downgraded this spec on the North American versions.


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## mtb143 (Aug 26, 2007)

*Subie discounts support mountain biking*

For anyone thinking about buying a Subie, consider that Subaru is a corporate sponsor of the International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA), and IMBA members can purchase one Subie a year at dealer cost. Check out the IMBA website for details. I saved about $3000 off MSRP on my 2006 Forester XT. Can't say enough good things about the car - after upgrading the rear sway bar to an STI bar, that is, which bolts straight on. Cheers!


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## nhmtns (May 4, 2004)

I've owned 4 Subarus and they've all been great. Excellent reliability and the AWD is perfect for New England.

I'm on my second WRX wagon and the combination of performance and utility makes this an excellent vehicle for my lifestyle. I'm always carrying stuff in the back (my dog, outdoor gear, soccer equipment for the team I coach) and the fold-down seats allow for plenty of cargo room.

My current '06 WRX wagon has suspension, exhaust, and engine mods and EM using a Cobb Accessport. I also added aftermarket wheels and tires and some interior mods (DVD/Nav, gauges, shift knob, carpets, etc...) to make it more appealing than the bland stock interior.

Just a quick note. A good set of snow tires is a must for safe driving in the winter because AWD does nothing to stop a vehicle and it doesn't help much when cornering unless under power.

A couple pics:


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

nhmtns said:


> My current '06 WRX wagon has suspension, exhaust, and engine mods and EM using a Cobb Accessport. I also added aftermarket wheels and tires and some interior mods (DVD/Nav, gauges, shift knob, carpets, etc...) to make it more appealing than the bland stock interior.


Do you have any pics of the interior?

With the Cobb AP and exhaust, how's the performance compared to stock?


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## nhmtns (May 4, 2004)

The AP really smooths out the powerband. After a while you get used to the performance and the best way to appreciate it is to either drive another car (like my GF's Mazda 3) or to revert back to stock which isn't easy. As with all Subaru turbos, performance also varies slightly from day to day based on temp and weather.

Here's the only interior photo I could find:










I also installed a subwoofer in the spare tire well because I wanted better sound but didn't want to lose cargo space. It's driven by its own amp and it really adds to the overall sound nicely.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I wish someone nearby had an '06 or '07 with the Cobb AP that I could try. I'm still satisfied with my stock '07 but I'd like to feel the difference (to know if I should be dis-satisfied with my car, ha).

That's a Pioneer unit? How's the Nav function? I use a portable Garmin that gets me where I need to go but I would consider an in-dash unit.

Nice idea on the subwoofer. I bet it sounds nice. Do you not have a spare tire now?


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## nhmtns (May 4, 2004)

The sub fits inside the spare tire and the box sits on top, so I still have the spare.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

nhmtns said:


> The sub fits inside the spare tire and the box sits on top, so I still have the spare.


Wow, that's even one better! I may have to go to the audio shop soon. First I ought to get some music from this century.


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## nhmtns (May 4, 2004)

I bought this sub box from someone who made it themselves, then I searched around and found a good quality subwoofer that would fit in the box.

Some companies make complete sub boxes that fit in the spare tire well but they don't really sound great. Most car stereo stores will tell you this.


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## bringdoom (Sep 1, 2007)

My buddy is a subaru guy and I was anti imports till riding in his car. He had a 97 legacy wagon, 98 2.5 rs, his fiance has an 04 wrx and he now has an 05 or 06 wrx sti. the cars are great, especially the sti, lol. They are so nice in the snow also. If I didnt need a truck for my dirtbike I would have bought a wrx instead of my 07 dakota.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

shortbus901 said:


> I don't know much about the newer ones but mine is still going strong after 22 years:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice Fiat! My stepdad has the turbo model. I've put a lot of hours into it with him.


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## crazylax42 (Jan 17, 2007)

new coworker bought his 98 subaru new and just replaced his first part (the starter) last week. works perfect.


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

nhmtns said:


>


Nice WRX wagon. I like the box, looks good. Does the spoiler clear it to allow you to open the hatch all the way?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Which tires did you buy?


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## nhmtns (May 4, 2004)

Rear hatch doesn't open all the way with the box, but enough to load stuff back there.

The snow tires are Dunlop M3's. Well worth the $.


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## shortbus901 (Jun 19, 2006)

ryguy79 said:


> Nice Fiat! My stepdad has the turbo model. I've put a lot of hours into it with him.


The Spyder actually belongs to my friend (roommate at the time this photo was taken). the Sport Track is his as well but has since been sold for a '72 Bronco. Most of his efforts these days are put into the Bronco; sadly I don't think the Fiat has run in over 2 years.


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## dirtdrop (Dec 29, 2003)

I've had three Subarus, '02 WRX, '05 STi and now a '05 WRC Wagon. No problems with any of them.

For a fast STi I only have to visit my buddies shop. This thing is fast!


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

shortbus901 said:


> The Spyder actually belongs to my friend (roommate at the time this photo was taken). the Sport Track is his as well but has since been sold for a '72 Bronco. Most of his efforts these days are put into the Bronco; sadly I don't think the Fiat has run in over 2 years.


Bummer. Even though they're not the fastest thing around, they're a lot of fun.


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Cobb Stage I @ 35hp/45lbs t*



imridingmybike said:


> Any simple perfomance enhancements for foresters?


for the XT @ 700.00...and you have damn near the HP of a WRX in a station wagon with all time AWD... sounds like a blast..

http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/?id=2486

Other then that theres allways an intake and a poor mans cat back.


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## G_Blanco (Feb 26, 2007)

*Why a Subaru*

They are nice since they come with AWD but if you do not need that I say why bother. You can get a 2wd car for less. My wife crashed into a bear on hwy 80 so we were just in a market for a new car that would hall us and my bikes. We got a mini van....but it sounds like you're in the market for something smaller...smaller cars we research that were nice. Like Randyboy said you can't go wrong with the VW's. Get the TDI if you can afford it but the gas engines are fine and you can get a real nice one for the same price as a Subaru. Also we look at Volvo station wagon (used). They are nice and very safe. Rite now I am also looking to replace my commuter car (98 ford escort) with a newer Ford Focus wagon. I really like that car it's cheap, reliable (consumer reports best pick), and tones of room for a 4 cyl car. oh ya one last thing..who ever said you should buy a Subaru because they support IMBA and you can get it at close to dealer cost......well if you do your home work you can get almost any car at close or under dealer cost.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ffwlwhite said:


> They are nice since they come with AWD but if you do not need that I say why bother. You can get a 2wd car for less. My wife crashed into a bear on hwy 80 so we were just in a market for a new car that would hall us and my bikes. We got a mini van....but it sounds like you're in the market for something smaller...smaller cars we research that were nice. Like Randyboy said you can't go wrong with the VW's. Get the TDI if you can afford it but the gas engines are fine and you can get a real nice one for the same price as a Subaru. Also we look at Volvo station wagon (used). They are nice and very safe. Rite now I am also looking to replace my commuter car (98 ford escort) with a newer Ford Focus wagon. I really like that car it's cheap, reliable (consumer reports best pick), and tones of room for a 4 cyl car. oh ya one last thing..who ever said you should buy a Subaru because they support IMBA and you can get it at close to dealer cost......well if you do your home work you can get almost any car at close or under dealer cost.


Good question.

One of the reasons is the highly reinforced B-pillar that outclasses just about every other manufacturer. There are lots of stories of cars running into subies on the forums with very disproportionate damage done to the subaru. It is so strong that it actually can create problems for the jaws of life, so there are negatives for an ultimately strong structure. There are other safety designs that the subaru has that are not matched by others, or only matched by spending tens of thousands more. Other reasons include japanese reliability (WRXs are built in japan by fuji heavy industries, unlike some other subies). AWD handles much better as well, so for the 28mpg, you get something that can handle much better than your 35mpg focus or whatever. It's all a tradeoff of course.

BTW, my brother rolled a forester down a hillside. Walked away. I was no fan of foresters (ugly), but that and our legacy outback 3.0 sold me. Solid safe vehicles. My parents wrote subaru and thanked them for such a strong car. Subaru headquarters gave us $1500 off any subaru completely outside of what deal we'd make with the dealer. Pretty cool, I dunno if volvo or vw does much of that. I just realized that I amost never tell this story, but that it's a big reason I like subaru.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

uno-speedo said:


> ...... and now a '05 WRC Wagon.........quote]
> 
> Typo or something cool


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## dirtdrop (Dec 29, 2003)

G-reg said:


> Typo or something cool


Typo


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## mtb143 (Aug 26, 2007)

ffwlwhite said:


> They are nice since they come with AWD but if you do not need that I say why bother. You can get a 2wd car for less.


Like the ad campaign says, "Airbags save lives. All-wheel drive saves airbags."



ffwlwhite said:


> oh ya one last thing..who ever said you should buy a Subaru because they support IMBA and you can get it at close to dealer cost......well if you do your home work you can get almost any car at close or under dealer cost.


Well, if you do your homework then I s'pose you can get the same deal as going through IMBA, except that 1) using the IMBA deal doesn't require all that extra leg work, 2) there's no haggling with the dealer to get that price - you just get it, and 3) supporting the IMBA program *supports trail advocacy and mountain biking*. I love mountain biking. I love my Subaru. IMBA's partnership with Subaru supports both. Win win.

One last Subaru thought - my Forester XT is such a versatile, reliable, do-anything vehicle that I would pay full MSRP for it before I'd pay dealer-cost on any other vehicle.

Happy trails.


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## mtbzone (Jun 29, 2005)

Try the 3.0 V6 Outbacks. Plenty of power and decent mileage. I get 22-27mpg (mixed hwy/city driving) with two bike trays and a cargo box on top.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Well I haven't driven an '08, but all the earlier Imprezas (non WRX) I've driven seemed to handle fine, definitely did not roll a lot. There is some movement, but because of the low CG the suspension can have more compliance than a Mazda 3 or whatever you're comparing it to. 

I have an '07 2.5i and swapped the rear swaybar for a WRX 20mm, but otherwise it's stock suspension, and I can't complain of the handling at all - and that's with the stock RE92 tires everybody says are crap.


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## ladge (Jan 15, 2004)

According to Subaru, the '08 WRX weighs 50 lbs. less than the previous year. Body roll is comparable. The main difference is in turbo lag. The '08 spools up around 2500 rpm, and stays constant through acceleration. The turbo lag is much less noticeable in the '08 WRX than previous models.

The '08 interior is nicer, in Subaru standards. It's somewhat copied from the Tribeca interior.

Handling is good, but not crisp. Exactly what to expect from a $25,000 car. It actually has a better weight distribution than the STI. It doesn't front dive as much.

The '08 has had much negative input about appearance. Granted, the chrome piece on the rear is horrible. The front "Chrysler V" grille can be avoided by spending $175 for the alternate grille. All I can say is that nobody can tell what it looks like while driving the car. It rides plush and smooth with the agile cornering one would expect from a WRX. It is a great driving machine. The expanded interior room definitely offsets the new body style I.M.O.

For the original poster, if still interested, sounds like the base automatic Legacy or Outback would be the best bet for you.

2008 WRX 5-door owner.
2005 WRX STI owner - heavily modified now with Perrin/Tein suspension overhaul (Konig wheel July VCS winner)
http://konigwheels.com/carshow_carstory.cfm?Car_id=4028


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

ladge said:


> For the original poster, if still interested, sounds like the base automatic Legacy or Outback would be the best bet for you.


Cool, the thread lives on!

Anyway, we didn't try a base legacy but the base Outback felt too underpowered and the automatic transmission was pretty sad. Since a manual transmission was out, so was Subaru unfortunately. In the end, we went with the V6 version of this (not ours pictured). Given what we wanted it was the best overall package by bar. The v6 is a beast so I approve .


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## G_Blanco (Feb 26, 2007)

Jayem......ok first off I have to say “I like Subarus". With that being said, yes they are very, very safe cars. I would be very hard pressed to cut through the newer B pillars. They are as safe as a Volvo, BMW, or Benz. As for the $1500 they gave you for a new Subaru, sweet, I would be sold too. Now there are only two problems I have with Subaru. First off, just about every Mt. biker owns one. Now don’t tell me that I just proved your point...its called marketing. 2nd is the price. Your laugh at my Ford wagon because it’s not as "cool" as other cars but I looked at KBB and a Forester is $6000-$7000 more. True it's not as safe but believe it or not safety does have a price. If it did not we would all be driving Hummers. Now remember I was only trying to give the OP my own personal experiences and show him a few not so mainstreams alternatives.


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## G_Blanco (Feb 26, 2007)

what kinda car is that..is it a Toyota?????


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## ladge (Jan 15, 2004)

SWEET!

Mission accomplished! Now you have a ride you and your wife enjoy, plenty of bike carrying options,and a 4x4. 


Many happy rides and drives!


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

ffwlwhite said:


> what kinda car is that..is it a Toyota?????


Yup, Toyota Rav4, V6, 4x4. The V6 Toyota slapped in this thing is crazy overkill for a car of this type. This makes me happy . Crazy power with good mileage using regular gas and no turbo makes me really happy. Overall, it's a really nice package. Definitely worth checking out if you are in the market for a wagon or small SUV. Handling is a little truck like, as expected, but very well behaved and solid. Bad points - 4wd system is kind of lame but good enough for mostly plowed winter roads which covers 99% of how it will be used. Interior looks a little cheap and lacks features that I would expect at this price point (no auto-headlights, compass, mpg display? Come on!  ).

I still wouldn't mind an '08 STI though


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## amillmtb (Jun 24, 2005)

I have a 1997 Outback Wagon Limited, with a manual transmission. 115k miles on it and never replaced anything more than oil and windshield wipers. Great car, great all year round. AWD system works flawlessly in the snow and rain. and they look flippin cool with bikes on the roof!


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

ladge said:


> SWEET!
> 
> Mission accomplished! Now you have a ride you and your wife enjoy, plenty of bike carrying options,and a 4x4.
> 
> Many happy rides and drives!


Thanks man! What's kind of funny is that I just realized that this may be the last gas powered car we buy. We're on the a 15 year new car cycle so by 2022 even gas hybrids might be obsolete. Cool.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ladge said:


> According to Subaru, the '08 WRX weighs 50 lbs. less than the previous year. Body roll is comparable. The main difference is in turbo lag. The '08 spools up around 2500 rpm, and stays constant through acceleration. The turbo lag is much less noticeable in the '08 WRX than previous models.
> 
> The '08 interior is nicer, in Subaru standards. It's somewhat copied from the Tribeca interior.
> 
> ...


Problem is that there are no real improvements, the "improvements" are minimal and very small. Every mag that has tested the new cars has actually said they are heavier (actual weight) than before, so I know that subaru claims less, but I'm not sure if I believe it.

The turbo spool and other items are pretty lame IMO because the power output is relatively unchanged. I think the only real improvement is the rear seat area, it's much better now, but a real "improved" WRX would have 250hp IMO and better performance features, and even that isn't all that much compared to the competition. The mazda MS3 owns the wrx, as do quite a few cars now. I think the point of the new WRX is to widen the gap between it and the STI.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

amillmtb said:


> I have a 1997 Outback Wagon Limited, with a manual transmission. 115k miles on it and never replaced anything more than oil and windshield wipers. Great car, great all year round. AWD system works flawlessly in the snow and rain. and they look flippin cool with bikes on the roof!


Be careful, as the former owner of several late-90s Outbacks, they tend to blow a had gasket between 100 and 130k. It was somewhat of a common problem, and a $1300 repair!

But oh, how I loved that car. Too bad. There is an EJ20 swapped 98 on ebay right now. Im dreamin....


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## HarryCallahan (Nov 2, 2004)

chequamagon said:


> Be careful, as the former owner of several late-90s Outbacks, they tend to blow a had gasket between 100 and 130k. It was somewhat of a common problem, and a $1300 repair!
> 
> But oh, how I loved that car. Too bad. There is an EJ20 swapped 98 on ebay right now. Im dreamin....


Good to know. But if you had one in otherwise good shape, and that $1300 repair gets you another 70 to 100k miles, that's not such a bad thing.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

98ish Subys with the 2.5L "Phase II" engines had the head gasket problems, and chances are if you find one with more than 80K it's already been fixed. Though down a bit on power compared to it's bigger brother, Suby's 2.2L engines are very reliable.


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## Tom Foolery (Jul 7, 2006)

We bought a '98 2.5L Subaru with 130k on teh clock. Yep had a blown headgasket. Dealer fixed it all under warranty, its an awesome car.


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## nuclear_powered (Apr 18, 2007)

Mr.Bob said:


> Yup, Toyota Rav4, V6, 4x4. The V6 Toyota slapped in this thing is crazy overkill for a car of this type. This makes me happy . Crazy power with good mileage using regular gas and no turbo makes me really happy. Overall, it's a really nice package. Definitely worth checking out if you are in the market for a wagon or small SUV. Handling is a little truck like, as expected, but very well behaved and solid. Bad points - 4wd system is kind of lame but good enough for mostly plowed winter roads which covers 99% of how it will be used. Interior looks a little cheap and lacks features that I would expect at this price point (no auto-headlights, compass, mpg display? Come on!  ).
> 
> I still wouldn't mind an '08 STI though


Funny you should mention Rav 4's.

Subaru Owner here (MY07 Outback 2.5 4cyl Manual non-turbo - they dont sell Outback XT's here in Australia). I got one based on the glowing reports from 3 other Subaru owners (1 of them a fellow MTB rider). So far, it's the best car I've ever owned - it does about 70% on road, 30% serious off road.

About 2 months ago, we all (partners & friends) took them out to the bush (Otways for those Victorian Australians). Found some absolutely wicked tracks that, upon looking at for the first time I was concerned we'd struggle to get through. Being the more novice of us, I followed my friends advice when they all said we'd be fine. And we were. Deep ruts, shallow river crossings, extremely steep inclines & declines - all without a problem.

We got to our end point, had a nice picnic, took the bikes for a spin along some walking tracks, then drove back the way we came. At one of the deep rutted parts we found, sitting with bonnet open and smoke pouring out from what looked like the transmission, a current model new V6 Rav 4, in a convoy of other more serious 4WD's. Owner was getting so much crap when, after being towed out by his mates, we all tore through the same ruts without issue.

Indeed, I've known a few Rav 4 owners who have all come to the conclusion their car is just a jacked up wagon that's good for going over speed bumps fast.

Granted, you said it's not going to be used for this sorta stuff, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Subaru have been making AWD wagons for quite a long time. I've yet to read a review of another make & model that beats them. They know their shite.

But the really strange thing is that Toyota own a portion of Subaru. You think there'd be a bit of cross pollination going on that would make the Rav 4's a bit more durable in the off road department.


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## ctanderson (Jan 27, 2006)

A 2000 legacy outback owner here. blew the head gasket at 98k. Unfortunatley the car
was fixed by Carmax under there warranty, and they didnt do a good job. The car hasnt been right since. Also have to agree on the auto. trans. It is the clunkiest shifting thing
I have ever owned.


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

*all we'll drive...*

"Six stars gleaming, five gears shifting, four tires chirping, three differentials working, two liters screaming, one turbo boosting... it's what makes a Subaru all-wheel-drive, all we'll drive" :thumbsup: love that quote


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

BlackCanoeDog said:


> "Six stars gleaming, five gears shifting, four tires chirping, three differentials working, two liters screaming, one turbo boosting... it's what makes a Subaru all-wheel-drive, all we'll drive" :thumbsup: love that quote


Wierd, what year? My RPM gauge is dead center in my console, speed is to the right.


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## IAmCosmo (Apr 11, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Wierd, what year? My RPM gauge is dead center in my console, speed is to the right.


02-03 had the speedometer in the center. 04 and up have the tach in the center.

Just wanted to chime in here... I had a 03 WRX for about two years, and not a single day goes by that I don't regret selling it. Even with all the abuse I put that car through, it was still in great shape when I got rid of it (and was making just over 300 hp at the wheels). I was pretty heavy into the Subaru modification scene for a while. I'm still a moderator over at wrxtuners.com as well. Even after I upgraded my car's turbo, intake, exhaust, intercooler, injectors, fuel pump, and engine management, it still got close to 30 mpg on the highway.

When I can afford it, I'm buying a new WRX wagon. Hopefully next year...


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

You're absolutely right, the Rav4 is basically a street car and not really even in the same league offroad as your average Subaru. It's obvious just looking at it (low profile wheels anyone?) Since we already have a serious offroad vehicle it made sense to get something tuned more for running around on surface streets and (very) light offroad duty. I think of it as a somewhat sporty sedan with a hell of a lot of trunk space and, for what it is, it's great. If you're on more than smooth unpaved roads though the Rav4 ain't for you.


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

IAmCosmo said:


> 02-03 had the speedometer in the center. 04 and up have the tach in the center.
> 
> Just wanted to chime in here... I had a 03 WRX for about two years, and not a single day goes by that I don't regret selling it. Even with all the abuse I put that car through, it was still in great shape when I got rid of it (and was making just over 300 hp at the wheels). I was pretty heavy into the Subaru modification scene for a while. I'm still a moderator over at wrxtuners.com as well. Even after I upgraded my car's turbo, intake, exhaust, intercooler, injectors, fuel pump, and engine management, it still got close to 30 mpg on the highway.
> 
> When I can afford it, I'm buying a new WRX wagon. Hopefully next year...


Puts a smile on my face everytime I get behind the wheel. That's what I ultimately want in a vehicle. Consumer's Report rated WRX most fun & most reliable. Pretty good combo in my mind.Yes, mine is an 02 WRX wagon. I still like the 02-03 interior the best. LOve the seats and that particular Momo steering wheel. Probably because I'm an "old guy" that grew up hanging around my father's shop as he tuned 1960's vintage Jag's. MG's, & Triumphs. I still remember taking a turn at the wheel of a Triumph TR250 with a 3 speed overdrive tranny ( yes, 7 forward gears!), wood dash etc. I have owned a string of Volvos, Hondas, and Nissans. This was my 1st Subie and bests all the other vehicles hands down.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

I just bought an Impreza 2.5i this past saturday. What did someone say about a smile? I traded my 2004 Hemi Ram (14.69 @ 92 MPH in the quarter, stock) in when I bought the car. I won't miss the truck since this is more fun to drive, the family can get in the car (3 of us), can tow 2000 lbs, and can use a hitch mounted rack. But best of all, it will get far better MPG's than my truck.


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## River19 (Jul 3, 2007)

We are on our second Outback and the current one is a 2003 auto, we love it for what it is. Practical, versitile, dependable and the best foul weather car hands down. It is also a slug for performance, handles great but you are not going anywhere quickly, but that is fine with us, it is what it is. Come snow season, while all the sporty wagons etc. are screwed you just drive by and smile.

We get 25mpg give or take 1 mpg, no more no less every tank.....

Steve


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## nuclear_powered (Apr 18, 2007)

And of course, should anyone not be happy with the front of their WRX, they could always track down the rare beast that is the Saabaru.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saabaru

... a brief moment in time when Saab thought re-badging a WRX sportswagon would be a good idea.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Back when GM had a last ditch "end of year dealer price sale" or something like that the Saabaru's were thousands cheaper with nicer interior. I think they are really sharp looking, and are mechanically identical so parts are cheap.


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

the saabaru was gay. everyone knows that only stuck up a-holes drive saabs. i was very dissapointed when gm/subaru made that saab together. stick to the subies


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## Carbon Ken (Mar 31, 2005)

At least you could get good discounts on the Saabaru's. 

I thought about their 9-2X because I preferred the front end of "their WRX" and because I had some bonus dollars from my GM Visa. However, I ended up with a Legacy instead.


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## mtbdee (Jan 31, 2005)

Still driving my '02 Impreza Outback, bought it new in October '01. It's a hair over 130k miles old. Other than the wheel bearings in the rear crapping out ($1800 job) it's been great. Normal maintenance and that's been about it. That said something is rattling around in/near the exhaust right now, so we'll see what's up when I bring it to my mechanic. As much as I like the car my next will likely be a Honda so I can get better mpg. The Subie gets ~ 25mpg on the highway.


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## IAmCosmo (Apr 11, 2004)

BlackCanoeDog said:


> Puts a smile on my face everytime I get behind the wheel. That's what I ultimately want in a vehicle. Consumer's Report rated WRX most fun & most reliable. Pretty good combo in my mind.Yes, mine is an 02 WRX wagon. I still like the 02-03 interior the best. LOve the seats and that particular Momo steering wheel. Probably because I'm an "old guy" that grew up hanging around my father's shop as he tuned 1960's vintage Jag's. MG's, & Triumphs. I still remember taking a turn at the wheel of a Triumph TR250 with a 3 speed overdrive tranny ( yes, 7 forward gears!), wood dash etc. I have owned a string of Volvos, Hondas, and Nissans. This was my 1st Subie and bests all the other vehicles hands down.


Those are my favorite body style as well. Long live bug-eyes!

This is my old WRX. I get all misty just looking at this photo...


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

mtbdee said:


> Still driving my '02 Impreza Outback, bought it new in October '01. It's a hair over 130k miles old. Other than the wheel bearings in the rear crapping out ($1800 job) it's been great. Normal maintenance and that's been about it. That said something is rattling around in/near the exhaust right now, so we'll see what's up when I bring it to my mechanic. As much as I like the car my next will likely be a Honda so I can get better mpg. The Subie gets ~ 25mpg on the highway.


wow whoever quoted you 1800 for a rear wheel bearing is rippin you off big time. shouldnt be more than $500 at the absolute max on that car


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## nhmtns (May 4, 2004)

obs08 said:


> the saabaru was gay


While I like the older WRX wagons better than the 9-2x, I really don't mind the Saab version of the Subaru.


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## ladge (Jan 15, 2004)

I don't believe much in what mags say (in general, same as MTB mags). Once I've had a chance to weigh mine I'll know what to believe. Then again, my friend was told by Subaru that adding the SPT cold air intake to his WRX would produce 30 extra h.p. without tuning for the adjustment. You could be right.

Addressing slow spool up isn't too small of an improvement. My friends and family own '02, '05, and '07 WRX's. What's the one common complaint? Turbo lag. The '08 WRX has fixed this issue without the need to buy an STI. All these current WRX owners that have driven my '08 rant and rave about the lack of turbo lag, the smooth ride, and the better seats. They just hate how it looks. Seriously - look at a side view picture of a Mazda 3 and the '08 WRX wagon. Down to the windows they are identical - only the rear taillights and roof spoiler are different. Even the wheels!!?? Subaru could have been more original instead of making a cookie cutter car. I can't tell what it looks like when I'm driving though....

As far as a Mazda 3 owning the new WRX, well, you have the same opinion as Car and Driver. However in reality, a 0.2 second difference in the quarter mile is nowhere close to "owning" unless a person is a professional drag racer. On dry pavement, an experienced person can easily make up that difference against someone who doesn't know how to launch from the line. On wet or snowy pavement, the Mazda 3 gets "owned" by much more than 0.2 seconds from 0 to 60, and more than that if going the full quarter mile.

I was skeptical at first when I looked at the '08, but my fears are dispelled more and more each day I drive it. Yeah, I would prefer having 250 h.p., but Subaru doesn't seem to be going that way.  Even the '08 STI has slacked some considering it has less torque than previous models, and the +5 h.p. doesn't offset the lower torque.


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## 41ants (Jun 12, 2007)

I had an 06' STi for about a year. It was probably the fastest and best handling car I have ever owned (430 WHP), granted it was fully worked over. The boy racer look started to annoy me a bit and always having kids in civics trying to race grew old, so I sold it for those reasons and a couple of others. All in all, it was a fantastic car as far as reliability & quality


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## 41ants (Jun 12, 2007)

sorry...


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## 41ants (Jun 12, 2007)

sorry duplicated on me by accident


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

damn 41 ants, how many sti's you own?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ladge said:


> Addressing slow spool up isn't too small of an improvement. My friends and family own '02, '05, and '07 WRX's. What's the one common complaint? Turbo lag. The '08 WRX has fixed this issue without the need to buy an STI. All these current WRX owners that have driven my '08 rant and rave about the lack of turbo lag, the smooth ride, and the better seats. They just hate how it looks. Seriously - look at a side view picture of a Mazda 3 and the '08 WRX wagon. Down to the windows they are identical - only the rear taillights and roof spoiler are different. Even the wheels!!?? Subaru could have been more original instead of making a cookie cutter car. I can't tell what it looks like when I'm driving though....
> 
> As far as a Mazda 3 owning the new WRX, well, you have the same opinion as Car and Driver. However in reality, a 0.2 second difference in the quarter mile is nowhere close to "owning" unless a person is a professional drag racer. On dry pavement, an experienced person can easily make up that difference against someone who doesn't know how to launch from the line. On wet or snowy pavement, the Mazda 3 gets "owned" by much more than 0.2 seconds from 0 to 60, and more than that if going the full quarter mile.
> 
> I was skeptical at first when I looked at the '08, but my fears are dispelled more and more each day I drive it. Yeah, I would prefer having 250 h.p., but Subaru doesn't seem to be going that way. Even the '08 STI has slacked some considering it has less torque than previous models, and the +5 h.p. doesn't offset the lower torque.


Well, the turbo lag issue is actually not that simple. The bigger turbo in the Sti would lag more, and especially with a tune, you could be spooling up your TD04 or similer "small turbo" a lot faster than the STI with the VF39. You don't go to a bigger turbo to spool up faster, it actually works opposite of that.

BTW, those .2 seconds or whatever are also not that simple either. Due to the AWD and the power that can be put down from a stop, the WRX "seems" real fast, but as you're doing the 0-60 and other tests, cars with more HP will pass the WRX. The rolling 0-60 tests are more accurate, and you can see the result of the low HP the WRX has.

Handling wise, the MS3 and WRX have their high points. Subaru is letting the competition get enough ahead of them in other areas that I'm not so sure AWD would be a deciding factor for me anymore.

BTW, the 08 STI doesn't have 5hp more, it has more than that. The STI was only rated at 300hp under the old scale, and I think the max it was rated at under the "new" HP scale was 293hp, given that it's increased more than 5hp, around 12hp. The STI handling has also been improved, although the improvements are not very large. The engine may be mounted slightly lower, but the car is taller overall.

Lastly, a subaru has never been the car to get if you want to drag race, there happens to be a lot of parts around so you "can", but there are far more capable cars out there and the subaru is not really suited to "dragging", although that AWD thing from a stop does make it go fast initially.


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## ladge (Jan 15, 2004)

Sorry, I was comparing the '05 to the '08. The '05 has 5 less bhp but 10 more lb-ft of torque. From the '06 on, the STI engine performance keeps dropping.

From 0-60 and the 1/4 mile the Mazda is only 0.2 seconds quicker. Supposedly 30mph-60mph they both clock in at 10.6s, which is likely the most realistic daily driving comparison. 50-70 there is a 0.6s advantage for the Mazda. Rolling 5-60 is worse, with the Mazda having a 0.7s advantage. Granted, like you pointed out, the rolling acceleration is more noticeable, but not tremendously significant IMO. Why is it not significant? I can only give this example. A local guy at the parts store has a 13 second WRX. He ran it this fall and pulled down a 15.7 second time - with a poor reaction time and a mis-shift. Regardless of a rolling start or not, human error can easily be much more than 0.2-0.7 seconds. Note, these times are at Denver altitude - at sea level his car is a 12 second car.

Yes you are correct, a smaller turbo is quicker spooling, as a rule of thumb. However turbo lag can be minimized by running different uppipe/downpipe/exhaust and tuning (you pointed this out). Taking these things into consideration, you should be able to understand how I run a larger Zilla turbo in my STI now, but the spool time is non-existent compared to the STI when it was stock. In a similar fashion, the stock STI turbo lag is insignificant compared to that in the stock WRX. Just to set the record straight, the STI does not have near as much turbo lag as the standard WRX. My comment in my last post about having to get an STI instead of a WRX to get rid of turbo lag is valid. Most people don't want to modify their Subarus like you and I have to address the spooling issue - though it would be cheaper than buying an STI, price-wise and insurance rate-wise. Simply, I just look at it this way - my '08 WRX has much less turbo lag than previous models without having to spend an extra $2000 for a complete exhaust replacement, maybe more than that with tuning - then you have to address whether your warranty is still valid or not.

Never said Subaru's were the ultimate drag cars, though, in the 11-12 second 1/4 mile range (in Denver) they can hold their own. If I was a drag racer I'd rather run a tubbed '39 Willys coupe with a supercharged 409 or something classicly stylish and quick. I'm still surprised at how many tuners show up at Bandimere speedway (local drag strip) though. It's a lot cheaper and easier to make some US V-8 muscle quick than a turbo 4 cylinder.

You said you got the STI intercooler for your WRX? Nice. I was thinking about slapping some of my STI parts on the '08. I'm trying not to though, intercooler, maybe turbo (don't know if it fits yet). I agree, once you start, it's hard to stop!:crazy: 

One last point - on the 08's, you can modify them as you want with SPT parts and Subaru WILL warranty the modifications. Nice!! I'd trade all my cars in for the new Nissan GTR coming out though...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ladge said:


> Sorry, I was comparing the '05 to the '08. The '05 has 5 less bhp but 10 more lb-ft of torque. From the '06 on, the STI engine performance keeps dropping.
> 
> One last point - on the 08's, you can modify them as you want with SPT parts and Subaru WILL warranty the modifications. Nice!! I'd trade all my cars in for the new Nissan GTR coming out though...


You still can't compare the 05 to the 08, when the 05 came out it was rated under the "old" HP scale. The power output didn't change. I know some guys have done the math, but under the "old" scale, the 08 STI would be putting out about 317hp, to compare with the "300" of the 05.

The only drawback to the SPT parts is that they usually don't have any gains associated with them. Exhaust and such is less restrictive, but not nearly as much as any other aftermarket, no benefit to the intake, and so on. You pay out your a$$ for the SPT parts, but they don't get you much, if anything.


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## IAmCosmo (Apr 11, 2004)

There is a lot you can do to a turbo and the exhaust system to overcome turbo lag (which I didn't think was that bad stock). My car had a VF34 turbo with an APS FMIC, and had less lag and reached peak boost quicker than the stock turbo and TMIC.

Oh, and, by the way, 99% of the SPT parts aren't worth the box they come in, and certainly aren't worth the outrageous price that Subaru charges for them. The SPT exhaust used to be made by Bosal, and was the same exhaust I had on my car (mine was the actual Bosal version) and while it's a few hundred more than just buying it aftermarket, it wouldn't be too bad if you got it included with your new car and included it in your financing. I have been out of the Subaru "scene" for a few years, so I don't know if that's the case now or not.

However, on a WRX/STi, the exhaust past the downpipe is not very restrictive in stock form. You only get sound/appearance gains from changing it. The downpipe and engine management are the places to make power on a Subaru.


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Hey..long live this thread..*

in your post you say that re-mapping is the ticket to more HP. So if i use the COBB stage I kit on a forester XT do i have to do anything else other then the re-map to be able to tap into the 35HP gain COBB claims..


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

jrm said:


> in your post you say that re-mapping is the ticket to more HP. So if i use the COBB stage I kit on a forester XT do i have to do anything else other then the re-map to be able to tap into the 35HP gain COBB claims..


i believe the stage 1 is able to be run just as is.


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*thats what i wanted to hear..*



obs08 said:


> i believe the stage 1 is able to be run just as is.


now just have to find an XT


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## KC.K. (Dec 23, 2004)

tell your wife she is going to learn how to drive a manual. problem solved. my vote goes towards an Impreza. the 2.5 liter without the turbo is very reliable as well. I have seen them with 300,000+ miles on them.


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Just bought a 06 forester XT*

Its so clean..bad pic but you get the pic..


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Put the Cobb downpipe on today and flashed the AccessPORT to Stage 2.

Oh...hell...YES!


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Mr Bob, just an alternative to suggest, a MAzda 3 hatchback. Pretty OK with the automatic. Hold as much as the Impressa. No AWD but I don't see AWD as a real asset anyways.


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

Raymo853 said:


> but I don't see AWD as a real asset anyways.


That depends on where you live...


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## BuckeyeRT (Jan 24, 2008)

BlackCanoeDog said:


> That depends on where you live...


wow that is a lot of snow. Really cools pics:thumbsup:


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Raymo853 said:


> Mr Bob, just an alternative to suggest, a MAzda 3 hatchback. Pretty OK with the automatic. Hold as much as the Impressa. No AWD but I don't see AWD as a real asset anyways.


Flagstaff a few weeks ago

(doing some fun drifting yesterday on our dirt roads here)

I appreciate AWD all the time. I love taking my car into turns when there's some "straight-line-speeder" behind me.


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## nhmtns (May 4, 2004)

Raymo853 said:


> I don't see AWD as a real asset anyways.


 You obviously haven't spent much timein AWD cars driving in snow, accelerating around corners, or accelerating hard from a stop. My GF has a Mazda 3, which is a decent car. She struggles to make it up the hills leading to my home when it's snowing, and she has aggressive snow tires. Another huge advantage of AWD is that there is no torque steer. My WRX wagon pulls strong and smooth, even when cornering. Try accelerating hard around a corner or from a stop in a Mazdaspeed3, GTI, or other FWD sports car, then do the same in a WRX or STI. You'll be amazed how much the AWD matters.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Without AWD or 4WD, I'd be lost


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

Raymo853 said:


> Mr Bob, just an alternative to suggest, a MAzda 3 hatchback. Pretty OK with the automatic. Hold as much as the Impressa. No AWD but I don't see AWD as a real asset anyways.


It looks like others have already beat you up enough about AWD . For us, the whole month of January would've been walk in/out from home only without AWD/4WD.

The Mazda 3 is really nice though and we actually did seriously consider one. You seem to get a lot of car for the money and it definitely has a fun factor going for it. A Mazdaspeed 3 with AWD and better crash test performance would be a real winner.

Anyway, we ended up with Toyota rav4 V6 last November. Not a serious offroader but it definitely had the best balance of features we were looking for. If we were still in the market, I'd probably hold out a little longer to see what the new Forester is like.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

Mr.Bob said:


> A Mazdaspeed 3 with AWD and better crash test performance would be a real winner.


Hmm... oh yeah! The car you want is also known as the Subaru Impreza WRX 5-door.


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

chequamagon said:


> Hmm... oh yeah! The car you want is also known as the Subaru Impreza WRX 5-door.


.


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Those are cool looking..*

seen a couple but not the tweeker versions..


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## big_sur (Apr 3, 2007)

BlackCanoeDog said:


> That depends on where you live...


nice choice!


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

big_sur said:


> nice choice!


Yes, I love everything about my '02 Bugeye WRX wagon. The seats(heated of course), Momo steering wheel, pop-out cup holder, etc etc. The puppup rumble sound of the boxer engine and the performance when the turbo kicks ass! Add in the wagon capacity and their amazing AWD for back country and snow. "Subaru AWD is all we'll drive!" :thumbsup:


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Did 120...*

on middle harbor through the port of oakland today..


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Damn, I must be getting old.....But:

1. My GPS says my Suby-Speedo is pretty optimistic starting at 70mph, so if that was your measure, you didn't make it to 120. Not that that matters.

2. Speeding like that and other buffoonery is a big part of why WRX insurance is higher compared to other compact cars. And really stupid. The only way to be dumber is to brag about it on the internet.

Sorry for being lame, but seriously. I've got to go tell some kids to get off my lawn.


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## Bike Parts (Feb 25, 2008)

Cyclon said:


> I love my Subaru Impreza WRX wagon. It handles tarmac, dirt, and snow great. I would take the Subaru over the truck unless I needed the clearance to 4-wheel to get somewhere.


i used to have a wrx but now drive evo 8 FQ320 - trust me the nothing prepares you for the grip that these cars can deliver!

NB I also have an old golf TDI - that's what I use as my bike transporter!


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## pedaler845 (Jul 18, 2004)

After 250,000 miles between 2 Suby's with sticks, I heard something that my own experience supports: synthetic tranny fluid dooms the manual transmissions. At least in my '90 and '95 Legacy's.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Plain old Dino-juice is what the trannys need. There's ton's of info on the net about that, and in the end don't fool around with funky oil if you want your synchronizers to live. My 05 uses a giant Torx head bolt for the drain pan to make you at least think about messing around in there. AWD is rough on standard transmissions so keep you "tinker-itis" under control and stay away from the tranny.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Be careful with synthetic oil/fluids in general. As well marketed and touted as they are, a quality dino oil (in case of engine oil) with a quart of synthetic, is the best. Also, 10W-40 and 20W-50 are far better protectors from friction than 5W30 and 0W30. The lower ones pour better in freezing temps but that is all they are better at. Most of us south of Alaska will be better off with slightly heavier weight oil.


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Sold the forester for a tribeca.*

Sold the forester the day after i posted aboput going 120 at the port of oakland. I guess i'm just a SUV putz. Like the H6 motor and 5 sp auto though.AND AWD..

heres the exact color and model..

<img src=https://www.automotiverhythms.com/images/td_2008SubaruTribeca_1lg.jpg>


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## dnoyeb (Sep 23, 2007)

Haha, The best thing in that picture is the Tim Hortons Cup. It fits!!!

I have a 2001 Forester and its pretty good. It is definitely NOT an American car. And I believe it has some kind of learning engine controller and so it adjust to your driving style over time. (or vice versa  ). So demoing a dealership car may be a tad misleading.

Anyway, this thing rocks in the snow and you can let the seats down to fit in a couple bikes. I like the car. I hate the cup holders...


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## InitialAWD (Dec 30, 2007)

08 Legacy Spec-B owner here.
2nd Subaru. Had a STi I tracked alot.
Bulletproof cars so long you get a stick.
The 6mt is one of the best tranny's out of Japan. The 5mt is ok.


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## Uzzi (Oct 28, 2003)

Just got myself a Legacy Spec B as well. It is my first Subaru. Maybe even my first Japanese car. So far it drives really well. Fuel consumption is not the best one could get but what was I expecting with a 3 liter boxer...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Uzzi said:


> Just got myself a Legacy Spec B as well. It is my first Subaru. Maybe even my first Japanese car. So far it drives really well. Fuel consumption is not the best one could get but what was I expecting with a 3 liter boxer...


Nice! Any pics?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

*3.0?*



Uzzi said:


> Just got myself a Legacy Spec B as well. It is my first Subaru. Maybe even my first Japanese car. So far it drives really well. Fuel consumption is not the best one could get but what was I expecting with a 3 liter boxer...


Did I miss something? I thought the Spec.B had the 2.5?

The Mazdaspeed6 was a great car, very similar to the Spec.B. Too bad they quit making it. 273HP Turbo 2.3, 6-speed manual, AWD, 4 door sedan, nice interior, 18" wheels, great suspension.

It was so under the radar that it didn't sell. At one point you could get one for about $22K after rebates, $24K with leather.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Did I miss something? I thought the Spec.B had the 2.5?
> 
> The Mazdaspeed6 was a great car, very similar to the Spec.B. Too bad they quit making it. 273HP Turbo 2.3, 6-speed manual, AWD, 4 door sedan, nice interior, 18" wheels, great suspension.
> 
> It was so under the radar that it didn't sell. At one point you could get one for about $22K after rebates, $24K with leather.


yeah the spec.b is just a turbocharged 2.5. it is basically a last year's sti in some really nice bodywork and interior. a bmw fighter if you will.

the 3.0 was killed in all the cars. for 08, the 2.5 is the motor of choice, the 2.0 died as well this year. i dont pay attention to the tribeca though, so god knows what they stuffed in there.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

*spec.b*



chequamagon said:


> yeah the spec.b is just a turbocharged 2.5. it is basically a last year's sti in some really nice bodywork and interior. a bmw fighter if you will.
> 
> the 3.0 was killed in all the cars. for 08, the 2.5 is the motor of choice, the 2.0 died as well this year. i dont pay attention to the tribeca though, so god knows what they stuffed in there.


The engine in the spec.b is not the STI engine. The engine is the same as the standard Legacy GT. I think the trans is out of the STI though.

They are nice, but once you get to $35K there is a lot of competition out there.


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## wagon boy (Dec 27, 2007)

I loved my forester, unfortunately though I had to get out of the scene I was in due to an accident - that said, I am glad I was in a forester! 
This is it all blinged up








This is it with it's race rims and a little lower still...








and this is the accident I was in. I sat in the passenger seat and I walked away. (passenger seat is the one with the tree in it and no, not my car nor was I driving)


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## wagon boy (Dec 27, 2007)

honkinunit said:


> The engine in the spec.b is not the STI engine. The engine is the same as the standard Legacy GT. I think the trans is out of the STI though.
> 
> They are nice, but once you get to $35K there is a lot of competition out there.


I don't know about over there but over here, they are a six speed getrag box, but not an sti box. slightly taller ratios and no DCCD.


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

Nice. That's a modded xt, right? What kind of real world mileage do you get in that thing? I'm kind of interested in the Forrester again (XT of course) with the '09 model.


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## wagon boy (Dec 27, 2007)

No it's a GT - 2L turbo model.

that shape and the XT shape were both based on the Impreza platform (-02 was GC8 or -00 wrx and the XT was based on the 01-05 wrx) The new shape is based on the Liberty/Legacy platform and has a longer wheelbase and a little bit softer heritage, more SUV like.

Early on in this thread someone made a comment that wrx's are easier to modify than foresters. I would like to say that that is utter rubbish as they share the same chassis. you may have to think a little more but if it can be done to a wrx it most certainly can be done to a forester. I had upgraded most parts of the foz with sti bits and bobs, including swaybars and brakes. It was running a 13second 1/4mile in full street trim with full stereo and was managing under 10L/100kms. (~23mpg)


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

Ah, just noticed the right hand drive. As far as I know we've never had a 2.0L "GT" here in the States, Forester has always been 2.5L. It'll be interesting to hear what people think of the new one once it's widely available. I'm old so softer heritage is what I need .


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## InitialAWD (Dec 30, 2007)

Elsewhere in the world the Spec-B is available in either turbo 4 or NA 6 form.

The 6mt is basically the same as the STi 6mt. Just missing some expensive bits inside. And the change in ratios.

And the Spec B engine is not the STi engine. Even though it basically is though. It does have the same engine as the Std Leggy GT.

And yea for 35k its tough to justify a Subaru but easy for me b/c the local Suby dealer kicks ass and this is my second Suby. They are very reliable cars IMHO. The STi and Spec-B models are "overbuilt".


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## Uzzi (Oct 28, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> Did I miss something? I thought the Spec.B had the 2.5?


In the EU the Spec B does not come with the 2.5 but with the 3.0 and a manual.


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## Uzzi (Oct 28, 2003)

Don't have a good picture of the car. Could walk down to the garage but it is very dirty at the moment as we had some snow the last couple of days. Anyway in the picture it is on 17" with snow tires, looking forward swapping those for the 18" with Potenza's.

I like it that you can't really tell this is a fairly quick car. On the outside it looks like any other Legacy, no extra plastic bits etc.


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## wagon boy (Dec 27, 2007)

That looks hot. Are they the wrx wheels on it? Over here they came on our 01-05 wrx. I personally love that shape Lib


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## Uzzi (Oct 28, 2003)

Don’t know if these wheels are the same as on the WRX. Anyway took a somewhat better picture on my way home. You can see it is the 05-07 pré face lift model. I really like the way this car drives and have not yet found the limit. Felt slight over steer two times coming a bit late and quick of the accelerator…well that is what I think... ESP kicks in very late which is a def plus…only my better half managed it…


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## Connor (Sep 24, 2006)

psshhh..

here's a real subaru..

1993 Loyale wagon, 1.8, 5spd, push button 4wd, still a baby with 213,000km on it.


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## whitey199 (Jan 1, 2008)

If have Subaru questions check out either the NASIOC forum, or www.subaruoutback.org/forums for lots of good advice. I currently have an 01 Outback H6 VDC wagon. It is great. I have never had any problems getting through anything from foot deep mud to 3-5 foot snow drifts. Just hit the drifts with some speed. The bumpers and paint on my subi have held up really well. Also if you get an outback upgrade the rear sway bar. Check out www.Rallitek.com for a stiffer sway bar. Also if you do any off roading with any Subaru check out www.get-primitive.com for aluminum skid plates as the stock plastics ones are crap.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Subarus are cool.

I don't know why, but the Forester is the official car of Lesbians.


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## 9GUY9 (Jul 14, 2007)

Killroy said:


> Subarus are cool.
> 
> I don't know why, but the Forester is the official car of Lesbians.


Lesbians like Foresters, I like Foresters:thumbsup:

Lesbians like to get it on with chicks, I like to get it on with chicks


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## JIJO (Jul 11, 2005)

Forester XT FTW!


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*3.6l 265 Hp*



chequamagon said:


> yeah the spec.b is just a turbocharged 2.5. it is basically a last year's sti in some really nice bodywork and interior. a bmw fighter if you will.
> 
> the 3.0 was killed in all the cars. for 08, the 2.5 is the motor of choice, the 2.0 died as well this year. i dont pay attention to the tribeca though, so god knows what they stuffed in there.


with the 5spd auto..


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## TheSubaruJunkie (Apr 6, 2008)

Connor said:


> psshhh..
> 
> here's a real subaru..
> 
> 1993 Loyale wagon, 1.8, 5spd, push button 4wd, still a baby with 213,000km on it.


*PSSSSSSHHHHHHH*
Here's a REAL Subaru!









Sucks the original poster can only use Automatics. Subaru Auto's have much to be desired.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Mr.Bob said:


> WRX is probably out of the question, especially so if they don't come in auto trans. which is a requirement for my wife. Have you compared the WRX to a non-WRX? I'm curious how the suspension performance compares since I found the non surprisingly bad.


Since an auto is required, stay away from the entire Subi line. All of their autos are so bad. Oh so bad.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

*?????????*

Huh? What's wrong with them and the Subaru line. I bought one three years ago and it is the first car that has been trouble free for 43K miles.

Of course most of my previous experience is with German cars and they truely are pieces of crap.


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## paranoid56 (Jul 26, 2007)

hes just sad that he cant have a cool suby


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Actually Suby Slush-boxes are pretty good, I've yet to hear otherwise. Going back to the 90's the auto could split torque from front to back, where as most manuals are just an open canter differential. And if you are buying used, the auto is pretty bulletproof and less likley to have been abused.


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## Zasshu (Jun 6, 2008)

9GUY9 said:


> Lesbians like Foresters, I like Foresters:thumbsup:
> 
> Lesbians like to get it on with chicks, I like to get it on with chicks


LOL...carpet munchers unite!


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## Jonjon619 (Oct 20, 2009)

my 09 WRX. still running strong like it was the first day i bought it. had it for about a year now so it not that old  haha. you can never go wrong with a subaru 

































subies for life!


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

I don't know about sucking, but the new Outbacks are ugly, IMO.


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## pebbles (Jan 13, 2009)

'04 WRX wagon w/ 128,000miles and still fast. I've been rear-ended twice and both times thought the rear was caved in. The first time I got out and had to look for damage, I mean get down close and look, a little crease in the plastic edge of the license plate area. Didn't even use touch up paint. The second time it punctured the plastic just above the pipe, pulled it out with a wood screw and slapped on a sticker. The other cars had more damage. Drove from SE GA to Detroit and slayed the mountains, then slayued the snow!


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## skithebert (May 10, 2009)

and this is the accident I was in. I sat in the passenger seat and I walked away. (passenger seat is the one with the tree in it and no, not my car nor was I driving)







[/QUOTE]

Holy crap. The driver survived that wreck?


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## A1an (Jun 3, 2007)

Anyone try to fit an XL bike in the back of an '08+ Impreza hatch? I have my eye on the new Outback Sport as a potential replacement for my '04 Passat wagon, but I'm concerned it would be too small to fit my bike with the front wheel removed.


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## thebronze (Jan 13, 2004)

wagon boy said:


> I loved my forester, unfortunately though I had to get out of the scene I was in due to an accident - that said, I am glad I was in a forester!
> This is it all blinged up


OK, what springs are those, that thing is super low and how harsh was the ride?


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## Jonjon619 (Oct 20, 2009)

A1an said:


> Anyone try to fit an XL bike in the back of an '08+ Impreza hatch? I have my eye on the new Outback Sport as a potential replacement for my '04 Passat wagon, but I'm concerned it would be too small to fit my bike with the front wheel removed.


you can most likely fit the an XL bike in the back of an 08+ impreza hatch but you will need to put the rear seats down and the front wheel off. but if you take off both wheels it may fit in the trunk w/o having to fold the seats down. the trunk space on the hatch isnt that big.


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## freerider619 (Oct 13, 2009)

I drive a 07 STI, and I have my back seats ripped out. I only have to take the front tire off to get my bike in the car. I wouldnt mind getting a roof rack , but I like cornering in the car to get to the trails.


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## Hobbyfreak (Aug 14, 2009)

I LOVE my subaru. :thumbsup:


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## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

There's a reason why subaru has such loyal owners!!

08 impreza 2.5i here.


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## wagon boy (Dec 27, 2007)

It had tein coilovers in it at that stage and the ride was very very firm. Best suspension setup was the 04 sti spec c struts and springs. It sat a little higher but so muchbetter in every way.

The accident pic, yeh the driver walked away unscratched, keep in mind that it's an Aussie model so right hand drive... That tree is in my seat!


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

Okay, I gotta say. I rented an Impreza this last week for work. I kinda dug it. I also managed to get about 30 mpg out of it for the week I was there. 

I thought the automatic tranny was just about the worst I have driven. I also thought the idiot light temp gauge was weaksauce. That said, it handled well. Except for the '06 Jetta I rented for a week and put 1200 miles on, best rental car I have driven.


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## nuclear_powered (Apr 18, 2007)

Gotta say, I'm diggin the 2010 Outback. I think the shape looks better on the Outback - with it's increased clearance and body kit - than on the Liberty/Legacy/Heritage. 

I reckon a 3.6L Outback would look mighty nice in my driveway, where I'm only a few hours from the part of the world it was named after. Well ... OK, maybe 4 or 5 hours away - I have to pass through "The Bush" to get to "The Outback".

But for now I'm happy with the MY07 Outback in it's place ... too costly to upgrade right now.

Long live Subaru. Long live the Outback.


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## nmtim (Sep 21, 2005)

Does any one know (or how to find out) if the 2010 models have thicker sheet metal than the previous years. I had a '08 Impreza wagon that would dent if I looked at it wrong.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Dunno....*



nmtim said:


> Does any one know (or how to find out) if the 2010 models have thicker sheet metal than the previous years. I had a '08 Impreza wagon that would dent if I looked at it wrong.


I always thought Subie used fairly thick sheet metal. The '09 Impreza I rented felt pretty solid... way more solid than any of my other rental cars... Cobalt, Kia, Focus... etc. Maybe it was an '08... I dunno... it had 30k miles on it, which is a lot for a rental car.

I think most car mfgs are leaning towards weight reduction, so I would think the trend would be towards less material.


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## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

i have an 08 impreza, it's got over 30k miles on it. Not highway!!! I don't have a single ding or dent in it, i park it in a parking lot and on the street all the time. 

It doesn't have some scratches around my door handle from my hands or something.


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## elhungarian (Oct 24, 2009)

we bought an 08 impreza 2.5i a year (25k miles) ago. I swear each time i look at the car theres another scratch on it. Is it just me or does Subaru use the thinnest paint available on earth?

We bought the dark gray colored one, maybe that's why.
We also opted for the 5 speed. The automatic made me feel like i was driving a cavalier or a yugo or something.
The added cost of the premium package is well worth it, Gets you the leather wrapped steering wheel and shifter, 6 disc in dash cd changer, and premium sound system(not that crappy 4 speaker crap).

Our 08 had the VDC, Hill assist Lights come on once in a while, This apparently is an issue with quite a few of this model, after i told the dealer what the issue was it was fixed the 2nd time, since they didn't listen to me the first time and replaced something else.

When I decelerate while in gear (engine brake) i hear a kind of grinding,knocking sound. Anyone else experience this?

The suspension is a little soft for my taste, but what do you expect from a $19k family sedan.

Debating if i would buy another. Guess it depends on how this one treats us over the next 5-10 yrs.

Mainly the wife's car and her commute gets her 28mpg average, on road trips we get a bit more.


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## adamssss (Sep 10, 2009)

Subaru must use the thinnest paint out there. I got scratches, paint chips and everything else. Swirl marks are everywhere. I can't complain tho, I have 34k miles on my 06 wrx and its been perfect at 290whp and 330wtq. I also get pretty good mileage. I love my Suby!!!


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## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

elhungarian said:


> we bought an 08 impreza 2.5i a year (25k miles) ago. I swear each time i look at the car theres another scratch on it. Is it just me or does Subaru use the thinnest paint available on earth?
> 
> We bought the dark gray colored one, maybe that's why.
> We also opted for the 5 speed. The automatic made me feel like i was driving a cavalier or a yugo or something.
> ...


I have the same exact car you have. 08 premium charcoal 5 speed. The premium also add 4 wheel disc brakes instead of drum rears, which is why i mainly bought the premium. Handling is fine if you don't go too far over the speed limit. Depends on how you drive, but it was designed for the majority public and public roads. The suspension is extremely comfortable on long road trips. The rear independent multilink is superb with bumps, never harsh or jarring. Feels like you are in a much bigger car on a long trip.

The only scratches i have are around my door handle, thin paint i guess, i don't know. I have 25k also on mine, i don't experience any of the problems you have. Traction control light only comes on when it should. The VDC works superbly in my car in the snow and rain, when i gas it hard or slow down too quick.

I don't hear any noises when decelerating, i'd have your car looked at while still in a warranty. Take it to another dealer with a better mechanic.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

I do think the 2010's have some more solid sheet metal than previously. My 2005 looks like a golf ball along the doors, it's my one complaint about the car. But it's long paid off, just ticked over 100,000mi and the door dings so bad I really don't care anymore. So resale is not that great...I'm driving it into the ground from here. My last Suby made it to 275,000mi.


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## thebronze (Jan 13, 2004)

I'm pissed at mine right now. Both the window seals are failing at the side view mirror piece. The wind noise on the freeway is really loud. I also had to replace a headlight since it filled up with water. At least the warranty covered that one. Minor issues but stil require dealer visits which I hate. I'm not sure they are going to cover the window seals. My wifes Nissan also has 60k miles and has had a lot less problems.


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## JIJO (Jul 11, 2005)

Love Subarus. I own a 2005 Legacy GT sedan and the car can move. The wife and I have narrowed it down to three different vehicles to replace her 2000 Honda CR-V. 

1) 2010 Subaru Outback 3.6R Limited
2) 2010 Subaru Forester 2.5XT Limited
3) 2010 Toyota Tacoma Double-Cab TRD


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## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

Depends on the person, but i wouldn't bother with buying a truck. They aren't practical for most people. Tacoma cab is especially small for rear passengers, most rear seats on smaller trucks sit you straight up which kills you on long hauls. 99% of the time people i know with trucks run with the beds empty. They might pick up an occasional couch or refridgerator. Also if people know you have a truck, they always call you up to see if you'll pick something up for them or help them move.

Buy the outback or forester with the tow package. Buy a small 5x8 landscaping trailer for about $1000 and you have the everything you need plus your rear passengers will be very comfortable.


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## GfromNY (Jan 6, 2008)

Forester XT. Love it.


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