# Classic Steel bikes, which tubing is better. (Steel lovers only)



## Cmonster (Sep 22, 2005)

I miss the good days of good steel mountain bikes. I have two mountain bikes, but one of them is a steel hardtail - Rocky Mountain Blizzard (93) with True Temper OX 3 main tubes and OX 2 rear stays.
These days its harder to get good steel framed bicycles. There is only a few mass production companies such as Jamis and Rocky make steel frame bikes. Smaller custom frame shops are taking advantage of this void because majority of every mass producer outhere is using aluminum or space age materials to make frames. I like lightweight steel because its more cost effective than titanium and stronger/longivity than aluminum.

What good steel tubing would make an excellent classic steel frame with today's modern steel tubing.

Reynolds standard or air harden tubing
True Temper standard or air harden tubing
Columbus tubing
Dedacciai
Tange (They are still around) www.tange-design.com

What's your opinion and its for steel levers only.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

As long as the guy holding the right end of the welding torch knows what he's doing, they'd all be just fine.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

I'm a True Temper guy.

My Slingshots are all OXII.


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## vdubbusrider (Jul 28, 2004)

True Temper is my Fav. you can't beat good clean seamless steel. it really is a class above even though True Temper is owned by Huffy believe it or not. and they started as a yard tool company.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

laffeaux said:


> As long as the guy holding the right end of the welding torch knows what he's doing, they'd all be just fine.


Agreed. It is how the material is used. All of the steel listed is available in many sizes so the builder can pick what works best for the specific frame. I know of several custom frame builders that use tubes from 3-4 different manufacturers in a single frame.

My long-awaited-frame-that-is-still-in-the-paint-shop uses (at least) two different types of Tange Prestige, True Temper and unbranded 4130 tubing.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

vdubbusrider said:


> True Temper is my Fav. you can't beat good clean seamless steel. it really is a class above even though True Temper is owned by Huffy believe it or not. and they started as a yard tool company.


True Temper tubing is not, and never has been, seamless. The steel sheet is butted, rolled, welded into a tube and cold worked to integrate the seam.


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## vdubbusrider (Jul 28, 2004)

ah, i see. just going by what different frame builders told me.


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## loonyOne (Dec 25, 2003)

I really think that the brand has nothing to do with which steel alloy is 'better' than this or that. It is by pure craftsmanship AND choice of the proper tubing alloy for the application. I'm sure that no one here, or anywhere else for that matter, will deny the tubing choice or craftsmanship of the Bontrager frames. The only factor in that would be the craftsmanship of the Privateer line, which lacked the moxie that KB (and his in-house welders) put into the frames. 
My good friend has a Teesdale with some very extravagant, custom geometry. He had TET build it with 100% 853. Some say 853 is too flexy for an entire frame, yet, at about a deuce and a quarter, he feels no flex. Teesdale is no stranger to the flame, and has the know-how to put the proper sized tubing with a given application...as _most_ custom builders probably do. THAT is what is most important when a frame builder employs either the TIG welder, and/or the silver solder and lugs to create what we all love to see...craftsmanship.
My 'new' DeKerf was built with Reynold's 631, a precursor to 853...does that make it less of a steel alloy than the almighty 853, Tange Infinity Prestige, TrueTemper OXIII, Columbus, Focus, and so on (because I really don't know how long the list is)?? Nope. A good frame builder will tell the customer what will ride and feel good, and what won't.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

shiggy said:


> Agreed. It is how the material is used. All of the steel listed is available in many sizes so the builder can pick what works best for the specific frame. I know of several custom frame builders that use tubes from 3-4 different manufacturers in a single frame.
> 
> My long-awaited-frame-that-is-still-in-the-paint-shop uses (at least) two different types of Tange Prestige, True Temper and unbranded 4130 tubing.


yep, there are several brands of good high quality tubing and each has its own characteristics, strengths, etc. It takes a knowledgable frame builder to match those to a rider and get something that feels good and right.

There are a lot of variables that effect the ride of a steel frame. Frame size comes into play, the weight of the rider, how hard the rider rides, etc. Its a matter of finding that nice blend or balance. Light guage steel has a nice lively feel to it, some of the early mtbs with their heavy guage tubing felt pretty darn dead. If you were to take a 15" production frame with a 125 pound rider, it will obviously not feel any where close to the 215 pound guy's bike who purchases this same brand in a size 22. Its flexier because of the added weight/horsepower, but also because its structurally weaker and more flexy due to the longer tubes. Anyway, like the others have said, ideally you have a builder build you something that is right for you and your style, size, etc.

That said, my favorite steel bike by far has oversize Ritchey Logic Prestige and was put together by Steve Potts. It has a really great feel. It wasnt custom for me (just a stock Phoenix), but I think I just lucked out on a perfect tube selection and layout. Thats my $.02 anyway.


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## Jeroen (Jan 12, 2004)

True Temper is all seamed tubing, same as the 'new' Reynolds 953 tubeset that supposed to defy the limits of current steels, that are mostly all seamless.

Numbers are nice to know and to compare, but they mean nothing without the geometry of the tube it is used in. The overall caracteristics of a frame, is completely depended on the combination of material caracteristics and the profile these caracterestics are used in. So in a word, nobody can make a good comparison between just 'plain' numbers when there is nothing mentioned about the shape it'll be used in. Its tied together and does nothing without each other.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

shiggy said:


> True Temper tubing is not, and never has been, seamless. The steel sheet is butted, rolled, welded into a tube and cold worked to integrate the seam.


True Temper shifted to seamless when they started making S3. I think they've converted all their major lines to seamless now.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Cmonster said:


> I miss the good days of good steel mountain bikes. I have two mountain bikes, but one of them is a steel hardtail - Rocky Mountain Blizzard (93) with True Temper OX 3 main tubes and OX 2 rear stays.
> These days its harder to get good steel framed bicycles. There is only a few mass production companies such as Jamis and Rocky make steel frame bikes. Smaller custom frame shops are taking advantage of this void because majority of every mass producer outhere is using aluminum or space age materials to make frames. I like lightweight steel because its more cost effective than titanium and stronger/longivity than aluminum.
> 
> What good steel tubing would make an excellent classic steel frame with today's modern steel tubing.
> ...


Best classic steel tubeset ever built into MTBs frames was Columbus MAX OR. No arguing. Just accept it. 

As far as modern steel tubing, Columbus MAX. No arguing. Just accept it.


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## Fluffbomb (Aug 14, 2004)

*Ritchey Logic Tubing*

All my steel bikes have been production bikes but my favourite steel bike that I've owned was a RM Blizzard made from Ritchey Logic tubing. Far more springy and comfortable than my Columbus MAX OR Explosif (although I think the back end is just plain chromoly). I had an Explosif made from a mix of Tange tubing (Prestige Concept, Ultimate Ultralite & Ultimate Ultrastrong) with a ribbed downtube. Very light but it cracked after a couple of years. 

I often wonder what the old Yeti's (Ultimate & FRO) ride like as they're pretty hefty and I assume use quite thick wall tubing. Thicker walled tubing typically results in a harsher deader ride, are the old Yeti's like this? Maybe Scant will let me take his FRO out for a spin! 

Cheers,

Fluff


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

you gotta remeber fluff john parker was into overbuilding, (yes they still cracked!) espically compared to the light ritcheys of the time. 1990 FROs weigh like 6lbs! I've ridden older steel fros & they always felt solid & stable (& yes slightly heavier) to me, although the merits of frame compliance have been discussed before, more compliance in the tyres etc.

You're never riding 1 of my bikes again fluff after dropping my old FAT ti outside my flat ;D my first king headset & you scuffed it up after 1 days ownership.. that spolit my day dude 

I'm glad the merits of seamed Vs seamless havent been raised again. Aerospace have been using seamed tubing for years.

Yeolde retrogeek (Bri) is close to finishing his steve potts & I look forward to a quick ride on it. certainly 1 of the nicest finished frames I've seen.

smoothest riding steel frame I've tried was an early 90s UK Zinn frame. UK readership will remeber those. rocket ships to ride, the amount that cracked probs being related to the smooth ride..


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

*Ritchey *** Tange Prestige*

Have a KHS Montana bought in '91 that used Ritchey/Tange Prestige tubing...used the bike for 6 months, and decided to retire the frame into my "hall of Fame"...never did like the blue and pink color scheme, but she is probably my most sought after frame by many in my club.


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## WTB-rider (Jul 25, 2004)

Fluffbomb said:


> I often wonder what the old Yeti's (Ultimate & FRO) ride like as they're pretty hefty and I assume use quite thick wall tubing. Thicker walled tubing typically results in a harsher deader ride, are the old Yeti's like this? Maybe Scant will let me take his FRO out for a spin!
> 
> Fluff


I believe the old FRO's were built from straight guage 4130.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

*Steel is still King....*

Gotta admit, I prefer to build out of steel. One of the greatest advantages is the diversity of the specs that are available and the characteristics of each. Rarely do I build an entire frame out of one manufacturers product, instead, choosing the pieces that will best reflect the intended riding application, the expected weight vs. longevity, and finally the "feel" the customer is looking to achieve.

Aluminum sets tend to be very cookie cutter ,Ti is great but sourcing and price is starting to be a pain in the booty, manufactured carbon sets remind me of building models when I was a kid...all of them take a back seat to the ability to create a unique ride, both in design and resultant feel, out of steel.

cheers,

rody


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## edouble (Apr 16, 2004)

*ive owned...*

steel frames made of 853, oxII, tange ultimate prestige and ritchey"s tange prestige, and ox platinum. i think they're all excellent, but im impressed most with the tange stuff. simply because it rides as good and is almost as light as the newer high end steels. the ox platinum is awesome because you can build an entire frame from it. something you cant do with 853. its definately true that its more important what you do with steel, not which steel you use.


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## Eastcoaster (Feb 13, 2004)

*My Smor was 853...my EWR is CroMO....*

My Smorgasbord was 853. Monostay design with the actual seat stays being S bend. Breezer drops. Nice ride. Big ups to Chris Daily who started Smorgasbord. Anyone know about them? Wished the company woul've worked out. Yes, I'll use the words...springy, smooth....it was. NOW, I ride a Grove built EWR Orig. Woods Bike frame. CroMo. Breezer drops. Thought that the oversized main tubes, "lesser" quality steel and compact rear triangle were going to mean a stiff, brutal feel to me on the saddle out here on my rock strewn, rooty PA trails. It rides like a dream for all of my trail riding sessions.
Isn't that the reason why we all like steel though? The possibilities are ENDLESS! Mix and match diff. tubing. What one builder can do with it vs. another. Geometry diff. mixed in. It's what makes our addiction to this stuff so cool.


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## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

I, too have one of those KHS Montana Teams with the blue and pink paint, it accelerates very nicely without any kind of annoying wind-up or flex. And the rigid fork rides smoothly, too, without giving up too much steering precision. Rithcey Logic tubing is one of my faves, judging from my experience with that bike.
My current ride is a Tom Teesdale built out of a mix of OX-Platinum and 853, and 4130 seatstays built to stand up to some trials-type back wheel moves with a rear disc brake. He was also able to build the frame with 16" chainstays, and still fit a Tioga 2.3" Factory DH tire. Frame weight is just over 4lbs for a 15" seat tube. Frankly it rides a little flexier than I'd like, but the ride is super smooth so I can't really complain. If I get another frame, prolly a 29er, it'll likely be steel, but maybe with a stiffer spec.
Tim


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Eastcoaster said:


> NOW, I ride a Grove built EWR Orig. Woods Bike frame. CroMo. Breezer drops. Thought that the oversized main tubes, "lesser" quality steel and compact rear triangle were going to mean a stiff, brutal feel to me on the saddle out here on my rock strewn, rooty PA trails. It rides like a dream for all of my trail riding sessions.
> .


Thought you'd like to know that your EWR is built out of straight gauge seamless 4130 aircraft chro-mo sourced from Dillsburg Aerospace Works in Pa. The stuff used on Jay's bikes was typically between .028 and .035 in wall thickness. Although Grove built the bikes to Jays specs, the paint was done by Fresh Frame out of Ephrata, Pa.

Nice bike, a joy to ride. Enjoy it!

cheers,

rody


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## edouble (Apr 16, 2004)

*forgot to list my steel steeds...*

i have a 96 norco team issue (ritchey tange prestige) 97 voodoo bizango (tange ultimate prestige), 98 jamis dragon (reynolds 853),00" zero flux (true temper oxll) 01 voodoo bizango (reynols 853) and a curtlo advanced mountaineer (true temper ox platinum).
the zero flux, 01 bizango and 98 dragon are frames that arent built up right now. ive ridden them all though, i just love the feel of steel.ill never be without a steel ride, ive made sure of that  !.


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## donk (Jan 28, 2004)

Current ride - Dekerf TeamSL - the sticker says main triangle and stays. I assume chainstays only.

Brodie - Brodie select - a mix of Tange Prestige level tubes(concept rear/ normal prestige front)

Ritchey Force Comp - Ritchey 4130 Butted tubing. Assume it was really Tange MTB tubing with a ritchey sticker on it.

The rear of the dekerf is stiff and rugged, while the front is a we bit whippy and springy (21 inch frame). I get a bit of derailleur rub, could be the sycros cranks flexing though.

The brodie is just plain jackhammer stiff, almost no give. I think this is due to the gatorblade fork. (19 inch with custom top tube)

The ritchey was my first real mtb. It was lost in a fire years ago and was way too small for me so it is hard to remember what it rode like.

I've never ridden anything but steel, and a few quick rides on other bikes, but always too small, so it is hard to say what I might like for a different bike. I do know that next bike I get will probably be a dually of some sort.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

A friend says it’s all much more alike than most bikers would like to believe. His qualifications are PhD in nuclear physics and engineering and work in an engineering lab funded by the automotive and aerospace industries as well as makers of welding and heat treatment equipment. He says it’s like the Ford vs. Chevy thing, and can’t believe bike riders can perceive such huge differences in materials in a broad sense when sophisticated test equipment can’t. His only concession is that packaged products will differ so things like the butting and diameter are what people perceive as different.

All that said, my custom Fat with 10th Anniversary fork remains the sweetest bike I have, and my wife says it can never be sold so I am guilty of thinking something really can be the best. In my wife’s mind it’s the paint and the way it steers that makes the magic.

As far as what makes a classic, there’s the obvious Fat I described, but my factory made Voodoo single speed is a very sweet ride and not going away any time soon so I have no firm answer other than what you and others like.


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## Patchito (Dec 31, 2003)

Ok, here's a trivia question for y'all. This thread reminds me of an article I read in, I think, Bicycling circa 91, 92. They did a review of three mountain bikes that were built to be super lightweight - like around 20 lbs. or less. One was a Klein, another was a ti bike who's name escapes me, and the third was actually a Steelman. I remember them describing how it used really thin-walled tubing to get the weight down, but that the ride was a little whippy. Anyone remember the article? Anyone remember the tubing that Steelman used.


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## donk (Jan 28, 2004)

Patchito said:


> Anyone remember the article? Anyone remember the tubing that Steelman used.


French excell tubing for the steelman. "painted" with hairspray to save 4 ounces. From what I have read (admitedly mostly bike mags and websites), tubing diameter makes a bigger difference in how rigid a bike is vs wall thickness.

The other bike was a mcmahon.

Still have a copy in a box in storage.


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## Patchito (Dec 31, 2003)

donk said:


> French excell tubing for the steelman. "painted" with hairspray to save 4 ounces. From what I have read (admitedly mostly bike mags and websites), tubing diameter makes a bigger difference in how rigid a bike is vs wall thickness.
> 
> The other bike was a mcmahon.
> 
> Still have a copy in a box in storage.


Yup, exactly what I was talking about. Nice job. I'd forgotten about the hairspray bit. One of the bikes used aluminum cable housing, too.

Don't hear too much about Excell tubing anymore.


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## Eastcoaster (Feb 13, 2004)

*And I even know one of the guys that painted it....*



Rody said:


> Thought you'd like to know that your EWR is built out of straight gauge seamless 4130 aircraft chro-mo sourced from Dillsburg Aerospace Works in Pa. The stuff used on Jay's bikes was typically between .028 and .035 in wall thickness. Although Grove built the bikes to Jays specs, the paint was done by Fresh Frame out of Ephrata, Pa.
> 
> Nice bike, a joy to ride. Enjoy it!
> 
> ...


Framebuilder Joe Williams, of Williams American Cycles (formerly of Serotta) worked for Bryan (Byron?) at Fresh Frame when my '97 (last batch) frame came through their shop. You should've seen Joe's face when I walked into Shirk's Bike Shop in East Earl, PA (Joe was wrenching for them at the time.) with my frame! He was like, "Whoa!, Where'd you get that?! East Earl, PA is just down the road from Ephrata. 
BTW Joe builds some sweet steel frames.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

*Very cool...*



Eastcoaster said:


> Framebuilder Joe Williams, of Williams American Cycles (formerly of Serotta) worked for Bryan (Byron?) at Fresh Frame when my '97 (last batch) frame came through their shop. You should've seen Joe's face when I walked into Shirk's Bike Shop in East Earl, PA (Joe was wrenching for them at the time.) with my frame! He was like, "Whoa!, Where'd you get that?! East Earl, PA is just down the road from Ephrata.
> BTW Joe builds some sweet steel frames.


I probably had a hand in building your frame as I was in on one of the last big runs for Jay, would love to see a pic posted. Always neat to run across a frame that is thrashed but still loved.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

*Ritchey Logic/Tange Prestige tubes.*

My 1990 Bridgestone MB-1 and both my Scott CTS' ride really nice. I also have to include my old '89 Trek Single Track too but I'm not sure of the tubing this bike had but it sure rode nice.


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## Eastcoaster (Feb 13, 2004)

*Not thrashed at all actually....*



Rody said:


> I probably had a hand in building your frame as I was in on one of the last big runs for Jay, would love to see a pic posted. Always neat to run across a frame that is thrashed but still loved.


Found my frame on ebay. Gosh. Wish I could remember the guy's name that had it. Buddy of Jay's. The frame was used to race DS for one season. Ridden very lightly. Verified the frame's history through a few sources. Orig. paint. Never cracked. Nothing ever replaced, etc. Typical chainsuck damage and some scratching by the driveside rear dropout. Otherwise...pretty mint. I was lucky to get it. Found out that it came down to me bidding against Jeff at First Flight Bikes for it. 
Very cool that you had a hand in it's construction! I use it to ride trails. I live in S. Eastern PA. It is going to be set up soon as a 1 X 9. When it was built up (by Mark Taylor...formerly of Bikesport now of his own shop, South Mountain Cycles in Emmaus, PA) it was set up to have optimal chainline in the middle ring. I found that I never use the granny anyway. So, it's going to go. Never had a big ring on it. Had Threshold special make a black bashring. I'll try to track down the post that has my photo with the built bike in it. Had Marz rebuild my '97 (bought new in 98) Z-2 Bomber fork. Man, that thing is buttery. I love coil springs. Anyway...enough from me. Gotta look for that post.


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## Eastcoaster (Feb 13, 2004)

*Here's the post...*



Rody said:


> I probably had a hand in building your frame as I was in on one of the last big runs for Jay, would love to see a pic posted. Always neat to run across a frame that is thrashed but still loved.


My photo. Posted by Punk. Out in front of Taylor's shop, South Mountain Cycles.
Hey! Did you used to live in my area? (Working for Fresh Frame?) Or, more on Grove's end of things?

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=21597&highlight=Eastern+Woods+Research


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## Eastcoaster (Feb 13, 2004)

*Trek Single Track 930?*

OX (something or other) tubing? OX II or OX III? Can't recall. A cousin of mine has one. Still rides it regularly. Loves the way it feels.


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## weather (Jan 12, 2004)

i think circa 95 930s are all ox2. 950/970/990 ox 3 or ox gold.


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## t2p (Jul 22, 2004)

Cmonster said:


> I miss the good days of good steel mountain bikes. I have two mountain bikes, but one of them is a steel hardtail - Rocky Mountain Blizzard (93) with True Temper OX 3 main tubes and OX 2 rear stays.
> These days its harder to get good steel framed bicycles. There is only a few mass production companies such as Jamis and Rocky make steel frame bikes. Smaller custom frame shops are taking advantage of this void because majority of every mass producer outhere is using aluminum or space age materials to make frames. I like lightweight steel because its more cost effective than titanium and stronger/longivity than aluminum.
> 
> What good steel tubing would make an excellent classic steel frame with today's modern steel tubing.
> ...


.
.
One of my top choices would be be Columbus EL-OS - in .7 - .4 - .7. 
.


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## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

This is an impossible ? as what is the best is entirely dependent on who is riding it.
Personally I like columbus genius for the main tubes and generic untapered 4130 a la fat city for the stays.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

loonyOne said:


> My good friend has a Teesdale with some very extravagant, custom geometry. He had TET build it with 100% 853


How? Reynolds doesn't offer the small diameters needed for stays in either of their air-hardened tubesets. Unless this TET frame uses something like the ol'Alpinestars method of E-stays with 1" diameter tubing.



> My 'new' DeKerf was built with Reynold's 631, a precursor to 853...does that make it less of a steel alloy than the almighty 853, Tange Infinity Prestige, TrueTemper OXIII, Columbus, Focus, and so on (because I really don't know how long the list is)?? Nope. A good frame builder will tell the customer what will ride and feel good, and what won't.


631 is the same alloy as 853, its just not heat-treated and it also has a thicker wall thickness and longer butt sections. So its less expensive to use and the frame weighs a bit more (but is also a bit stronger). It wasn't a precursor in any way, they were both marketed at the same time. Reynolds doesn't actually make steel though, they make tubing out of steel they get from their suppliers. 853 and 631 are both the same alloy though and that's 4340 (True Temper OX Gold/Platinum is 4340 also). The alloy is OLD school in auto racing and light aircraft construction. Why? Its hard to find an oven big enough to heat-treat your race car's roll cage, AFTER you welded it into your car. Much easier to find an alloy which gains strength in the weld areas as it air-cools after being welded together. Catch...stuff is damn hard and damn strong. And since auto-racers and aircraft builders tend to put strength, durability and safety ahead of weight-weenism, there just wasn't any demand for butted tubing until a few years ago in the bicycle world.

Tange Infinity and Prestige were different tubesets. Prestige meant heat-treated and butted tubing (and in some cases, externally tapered and ovalized shapes too). Infinity and MTB were mid range tubesets, without heat treating or the fancy shapes and butt manipulations. But it was ALL 4130 Chromoly. The only non-CrMo alloy steel I can remember Tange ever offering was Mangaloy (late 70s/early 80s) which was a Manganese-Molybdenum alloy.

Myself I have 5 different steel alloy/tubeset frames in my basement right now...

1988 Rocky Mountain Thunderbolt, Tange Prestige Concept
2002 Oryx Team XC, True Temper OX Gold
1993 Norco Sasquatch, Tange MTB
2001 Catamount, Plain old non-branded 4130 main triangle
1990 Rocky Mountain Fusion, Ishiwata 4130

Historically, I prefer Tange tubesets (ritchey tubing was always drawn by Tange under contract incidently). I've had other frames with Prestige II, Prestige Ultimate Ultralite, Mangaloy, Infinity, Ritchey Logic, etc. I think the only ones I haven't owned was Ultimate Ultrastrong and anything in the Ritchey Logic Prestige/WCS family.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

lucifer said:


> This is an impossible ? as what is the best is entirely dependent on who is riding it.
> Personally I like columbus genius for the main tubes and generic untapered 4130 a la fat city for the stays.


Might start depending more on your definition of MTB'ing or the type of riding you do. Genius, IMHO, is too thin for an unheat-treated tube on MTB's to provide durability and dent resistance.


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## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

Cmonster said:


> Classic Steel bikes, which tubing is better? ...What's your opinion and its for steel levers only.


 Phil Wood tandem tubing.  I can say that cause the question was for steel lovers, and I don't prefer one material over another. (Well, I'm not a huge fan of aluminum, but...)

Phil Wood tandem tubing (don't know where it comes from tho):


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## floibex (Feb 7, 2004)

... sweeet! I love deluxe goats.

but be aware, sometimes it might look like this 










ciao
flo


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

I think Cmonster's been scared off. The best answer is still laffeaux's.


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## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

Hehe, yeah Flo, if mine turns from  to  it'll be because someone burned the place down, since I'm probably never going to build it up & ride it. Ya, it's the curse of the three letters (N, O, & S).

Really though, the steel bikes (the ones I've ridden) that I've liked the most were Serottas early T-Max, and the gorgeous Santana Moda. Ohhh that moda was nice. I may have been influenced by the brilliant paint of the Serotta. I miss colorful bikes.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

*Looks familiar*



flyingsuperpetis said:
 

> Phil Wood tandem tubing.  I can say that cause the question was for steel lovers, and I don't prefer one material over another. (Well, I'm not a huge fan of aluminum, but...)
> 
> Phil Wood tandem tubing (don't know where it comes from tho):


Here's mine in action! Pic by Lidarman


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## Crell (Apr 7, 2004)

DWF said:


> Best classic steel tubeset ever built into MTBs frames was Columbus MAX OR. No arguing. Just accept it.
> 
> As far as modern steel tubing, Columbus MAX. No arguing. Just accept it.


I accept 

MAX OR aesthetically pips all comers. It made such beautiful frames (thinking of my mates old Fuquay custom. Stunning.

As for the others, the tubeset on its own isn't really that importand - It's down to the assembly, or in some cases mixing the tubesets to get the best of all worlds.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Cool shot! Good to see it in use. Heres a shot of mine:


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Cool shot! Good to see it in use. Heres a shot of mine:


Cool! I ride my Deluxe more than any other bike these days. I came this >< close to racing the DH at Crested Butte this year on it, but ended up using my HT.

Mine's definitely set up as a rider now (just like it is on the pic). Put a Sugino crank on it with a sandwiched single front chainring and a 7spd cassette in the rear using a Campy Centaur rear D. Wish it had room for bigger tires for a little more cush, but those 2.35 ShortTracker's actually work great for most conditions.


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## steveit (Jan 25, 2004)

this stuff works ok


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Cool shot! Good to see it in use. Heres a shot of mine:


regarding yer signature...i'll have to call tommorow and check but If my distributor didn't unload those to the wanker who bought the hundred or so Joe Murray tires... they may still have hound dawgs in stock. Personally I never liked the old tioga tires.


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## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

DWF said:


> Might start depending more on your definition of MTB'ing or the type of riding you do. Genius, IMHO, is too thin for an unheat-treated tube on MTB's to provide durability and dent resistance.


I hear ya on the dent resistance. As for durability I am a lightweight and ride southeastern rolling singletrack. I've never broken a frame, although one of my crack and fails did do just that under the next owner....


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