# Why we won't do custom anymore



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Well, I'll still do them because I'm a sucker for punishment, but I found this diatribe the other day (from a 'related' industry....okay not really) that I thought was pretty funny. You can tell the guy is from Kentucky. And a WWII Re-enactor.

(Don't ask. I have a thing for WWII crap.)

See if you can relate to any of this....

----

*Why won't we do custom orders?*

I was warned about custom orders by XXXX, who used to own XXXX. When he closed shop in 1992(?) I bought his patterns. He was in business for about 15 years, and he tried to give me as much advice as possible. We talked at length and he was very clear on one point. One that contributed to the failure of his company.
Custom orders.
They are a loser.
Every time.
Basically, it goes like this:
You make a guy a set of special order trousers, send them out, and;
_"They're too small. I want a refund"._
"They measure exactly as you ordered."
_"Too small. Don't want'em. I changed my mind, changed units, etc., etc. "_
Now you're stuck with size 50X26 FJ trousers that your sewers spent 6 hours making up all special for Pvt. Snuffy. Apparently Pvt. Snuffy gains weight faster than you can sew.
"Custom Orders" start out innocently enough as essentially taking requests, which rapidly morph into demands, which finally hatch as a full blown "Fulfill My Fantasy" situation. (No sick jokes intended. Just this once.)
The problem here, (OK the biggest problem) is trying to decipher what somebody has pictured in their mind, then creating it.​
*The major problems with filling custom orders are:*

_Indecision:_ These guys go crazy and call daily wanting to tweak the shade of green on their helmet or change the color of thread used on their M43 cap. It's bad enough to offer helmets, but when you have their personal helmet, people get very cagey and go nuts if they have any suspicion that their helmet is not being treated with the respect it deserves.
_Handicaps:_ Many types go deaf the moment you accept the job. The results are threats of lawsuits and complaints to the Better Business Bureau because they couldn't reach you on the phone for 3 days. (The fact that you told the moron that you would be gone to a show 500 miles away for those 3 days is not important.)

_Rudeness:_ Custom orders inspire people to find your home telephone number and call you at 3 am to check on their helmet. They're afraid it might be cold or need it's litter box changed. And to remind you that they wanted a Normandy Camo and not a Nijmegen Camo.

_Inefficiency:_ Custom Orders are incredibly inefficient. It takes the same amount of time to cut 50 tunics that it does to cut one. In case it is news to you, labor costs in the US are high. In the time it takes to pattern, grade, cut and sew Pvt. Snuffy's size 58 short "Rommel" tunic in splinter camo (that will get returned because he doesn't think the twist of the thread is accurate) we could have made half a dozen SS M43 tunics. I doubt even Pvt. Snuffy is willing to shell out $1800 to have a custom camo desert fox impression.

_Impatience and a total inability to comprehend much of anything:_ Custom Orders require a delivery date. Even if you warn them, in the clearest fashion imaginable, that their order will take 6-8 weeks to complete, the calls and complaints will start at the 3 day mark.
"Just calling to check on Heinz. Oh, Heinz is my helmie-kins. I give all my helmets names to fit their personalities..."
We have a close, personal relationship with Murphy's law around here. A high percentage of custom order customers are very impatient, and rarely have any sympathy for things like your air compressor breaking, UPS strikes, other people's orders being ahead of their own, running out of decals (thread, paint, wool, etc.), and in general they cannot understand that we don't have the ability to wave a magic wand and make whatever it is they want pop out from between our buttocks and be teleported to their door in nanosecond.

_Talent: _We're not good enough to fulfill the fantasies that would be requested. If I could look at the helmet on page 65 of Ralph's Pictorial History of Nazzee Helmites and knock it off, that would be different. Honestly, since we do not have a tailor in house, we do not have the capability (at any price) to take the measurements for a gal who's 4'10" and 387 pounds and make her an Eva Braun outfit. Even if we wanted to to it, we couldn't do a good job.
Not everyone who wants a custom order is a wacko. We know that. However, the 20% who are, ruin it for the 80% who are perfectly sane. Until we can cull them out over the phone, there will be no change in our policies.

_Bottom line:_ Unless we charged an enormous amount of money, custom orders are not viable for a business. If you do them as a side job or a hobby for your buddies, it will work. It sounds like a neat idea, until you actually try it. That's why we won't do them. We're not being mean, arrogant, cruel or snotty. We've learned our lesson and just know better than to let this monster out of the box.​
:thumbsup:


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Nice.


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

Fits perfectly. I've had numerous conversations that sound very much like that.


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## spoony (Aug 31, 2004)

It seems more like bad organisation on the part of the manufacturer. I know a lot of guys who get into the business of custom manufacture due to a love of whatever they're making, but all too often they have no business sense - and end up moaning like the above.

I'm not a custom bike guy, but my regular clothes are tailored and I have custom luggage built for me for example, but the guys I have doing it don't sew a stitch / lay a single sheet of pre-preg until everything is fixed in terms of what I want and that they are clear I'm clear what I wanted, and it's agreed in a checklist, email or other form of documentation. I wouldn't go with anyone who would be in the position of complaining like the above because it means that they're incapable of _effective_ communications with their clients.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

oh jeez spoony, it's funny as hell. Cause like all good jokes it has an undercurrent of truth to it.

Not that any of us Warwick, myself of any of the other providers on this list would treat a customer with anything but the utmost respect but it is good to point out that doing truly custom work has pitfalls and unforeseen issues that need to be accounted for and appropriate expectations and prices set.

I like it. Gawd they must get some weird beards in the WW2 reproduction world. Now, what if I asked for a vintage military uniform in spandex that I could ride my bike with....???:thumbsup: 

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Geez Spoony, develop a sense of humour already.


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## spoony (Aug 31, 2004)

*Defensive pout*

It sounded a bit too whiny to be humorous...


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

as does *defensive pout*


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

C'mon! Tell me you didn't laugh out loud at the prospect of a 4ft 10ins, 387 pound girl in an Eva Braun outfit.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

can't laugh at the Eva Braun thing, I don't want to think about it 

I can't see most of those problems showing up in the custom frame biz, can you see someone calling you up and saying "my inseam got 5 inches longer since I paid my deposit, gotta cancel."

My mother makes custom caving suits. That has worked out ok for her, although it's not a living. She has complained about the few special projects she has taken on, that usually doesn't work out because people don't really know what they want even though they think they do. With caving suits, they fill out a form with measurements and she sews it for them in a month or two. I suspect there is so much demand for Eva Braun outfits that the waiting list goes out for years.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

I have to laugh at the orignal post for anyone who has had one of these customers who changes EVERYTHING more than once during a custom build you have to take a second to step back and LOL most of it's far too true .

And the whole Eva Braun outfit just had me LOLing on another whole different tangent.
hahahahah

Well off to go build more custom frames for people who call far too often and make silly request after silly request only to slow their build process down more wile there consistantly bugging you for speedy delivery !
Bikes build themselvs right ?


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

Just get paid in advance!


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

Yogii said:


> Just get paid in advance!


yes thats what the contract is about! never make anything without a contract!
i used to make custom wood carvings and furniture. the first dozen orders i learned my lesson. soon i had a well thought out contract. that included 'revised idea clause' which = more money. and limited warranty. its not my fault that your maid dropped your $500 carving on the floor!


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

I do custom design furniture design. Essentially your job is to create the vision the customer has. Sometimes those expectations are fantasies as the OP Thylacine suggests. It's your job as an EXPERIENCED designer/builder to set the standard from the get go --- as an engineer for an architect would do, tell them what is possible and what is not. It shouldn't be discouraging after the first few mistakes. The best is to be respectful while dishing a bit of realism and attitude to get the point across. A slap (figuratively or literally) works if the customer is not receptive to the realism.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

I must relate a recent experience I had with a Customer we build a 100% custom one off frame for recently , as I believe this is the exact " problem customer " we all hate to deal with .

I was contacted by a local rider through these forums who asked me to build him a custom bike , now from the beginning of this build I must say I had some reservations .
See I'm a experienced frame builder , prototype / bicycle designer and when a customer comes to me with a set idea of what angles and length's he wants I always have to step back for a second . He listed 2 frames build by other manufactures I personally know and have worked with in the past that I know not to bee 100% true to the #'s listed in their websites so this was the first hurdle we had to get over , what his bikes road like vs what the angles these manufactures posted to help sell bikes in a pinch .
My customer listed angles from these manufactures websites IE: bike specs 
I wont name names but both these are very "production " built aluminum bike frames . No problem I know what the customer is looking for - ?

My next question is -
Why is it that some customers feel they can design a bicycle frame better than us frame builder's who do this as our profession / job ?
Obviously we wouldn't be doing this full time if we weren't somewhat good at what we did right ???

Well this customer in fact DID believe he could design a better bicycle than I could , so he sent me a very detailed DOC sheet with angles , axle to crown , BB to ground and so on listed .

Fine I can built a frame to these spec's but does the end customer know how this bike will ride ? NO 

I consulted him as best I could about the design and what he wanted out of the bike , luckily some changes were made to the overall design as his orignal design would have ridden like a overbuilt 90's bmx bike on the trail .

I built the frame exactly to his spec sheet : Top tube length , tubes used, cable routing as requested , Paragon slider drops etc . Even down to matching the color to his favorite sports car .

The customer came up to my shop and personally picked the bike up in person , at the time I had no problem with this . ( later this became a problem as I can't prove to the CC company it had been shipped )

NOW here's were this deal get "fishy " 
Later the next week I received a Email from the customer stating that the rear end wasn't 135mm ?? 
I didn't know how to relply to this as we use ANVIL dummy axles and at the time I didn't notice the frame to require any extra effort to put the dummy axle in or out .
I asked the customer to document this with photos and of course it was the LBS who told him the bike wasn't 135mm the customer never measured the bike from what I gather ??
In the pic's they show the rear end to be about 2.0mm tight on each side ?
I thought to myself for days how this could be I have never had this problem in the past??

Well after explaining to the customer that he could send the frame back for evaluation he agreed , I revived the frame back later that week right before I was set to go on vacation.
So I measured the frame when received back 133.50 at the front of the drop and 131.7 at the end tips ??? WTF ? 

So I put a spreader axle in wile I was on vacation and left in a nice safe spot at my house. Long story short when I returned home I pulled the spreader axle out and WOW the frame measured 135.8 at the front and 135.7 at the end tips ??????

Now I thought this a bit funny as it basically went back to stock without any cold setting or even me pulling on it at all .

I later received a email from this customer demanding a full refund - I sent a replay explaining that on any product especially on a custom frame I did not design -
I as a manufacture reserve the right to repair or replace any product we receive back under warranty same as your car warranty states they can repair or replace any warrently parts needed like MOTORs , this makes even more sense regarding a custom bicycle that was built to exacting specifications by the customer .

Fast forward to last friday and I receive a notice that this customer has filed a charge back through his credit card for the full amount of the bicycle frame !!!
I looked over the reason for this and his reasoning was " product not as described "

I emailed the customer offering to return the bike next day air and stated that after I returned from my vacation that the bike was in fact 135mm and it was ready to ship out .

His replay " dont bother sending it back I'm going to get my money back regardless "
Then he goes on saying that he has photos of a wheel in the frame and it's skewed and a few other tangents that made no sense what so even as I had already re-measured and double checked both alignment and spacing of this frame several times which were all spot on to the thousands of the inch 

This is were I believe this situation to be a little fishy - as in I believe the customer and his LBS to be creating problems that just aren't there , I also looked the the frame and believe the rear drops to have been squished in a vise as there are small tooth marks on the end tips of the sliders .

SO my question is what do you do when you have built a frame for a customer that they designed and spec'd then in the end they change their mind and stick you with the product they designed and contracted you to build .

BTW: I have gone through and documented the customers requests from his spec sheet with detailed photos of each of these features on the frame and forwarded these to the credit card company .

I'm honestly not sure what else I could have done here , I feel this is a customer taking advantage of a situation and basically lying to both me , his LBS ( if they are not already involved ) and his credit card company after what he changed his mind that his design wasn't as good as he originally thought ???

Sorry for the long winded horror story , but it customers like this that ruin it for al of us !!!


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Evil4bc said:


> ......... so he sent me a very detailed DOC sheet with angles , axle to crown , BB to ground and so on listed .
> 
> luckily some changes were made to the overall design as his orignal design would have ridden like a overbuilt 90's bmx bike on the trail .


Wow, can you post up that design sketch? I'd love to see it


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

Evil4bc said:


> I must relate a recent experience I had with a Customer we build a 100% custom one off frame for recently , as I believe this is the exact " problem customer " we all hate to deal with .
> 
> I was contacted by a local rider through these forums who asked me to build him a custom bike , now from the beginning of this build I must say I had some reservations .
> See I'm a experienced frame builder , prototype / bicycle designer and when a customer comes to me with a set idea of what angles and length's he wants I always have to step back for a second . He listed 2 frames build by other manufactures I personally know and have worked with in the past that I know not to bee 100% true to the #'s listed in their websites so this was the first hurdle we had to get over , what his bikes road like vs what the angles these manufactures posted to help sell bikes in a pinch .
> ...


didnt you give a signed invoice when he picked it up? when you build a custom product for a customer you need a concise legal contract. so that this kind of thing wont happen and if it does, you have all the legal proof you need.

not that i have built bikes for people. but i have made furniture and wood carvings. you have to dot all your I's and what not. cause even the nicest person (or even worse a relative)
will pull a psycho and turn a fun project into a legal battle. with proper documentation, you always win. and i always took my payments up front. full payment or no deal. either they trust me to come through with my part or i dont deal with that costumer.

but your only recourse now is the courts....


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

I think in the end the best you can do is just take it on the chin, write it off as a loss on your books and sell the frame for what you can get for it. Maybe put a schnazzy paint job on it and make it a show bike.

I had one instance early on. I ended up going to small claims and I won but it did not feel like I had won. Hopefully you can work it out between your CC card company.

I always appreciate feedback and input from the customer during the build but if it gets to the point where they are dictating things I just politely bow out. Its not worth the time or effort. It is hard to know this every time but now that you have experienced the warning signs just don't take on any commissions you don't feel 100% comfortable with.

Good luck.

Dave


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I honestly see good customer service being the ability to say 'no' as well as 'yes'......but coating 'no' in something yummy so it feels like a 'yes'.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Just a question of statistics.*

I basically figure that 5% of the frames I build will come back for one reason or another. Sometimes because I forgot something or screwed up, sometimes because the customer is crazy, whatever. So I incorporate that into my pricing structure for all of my work, and don't worry about it too much. If someone isn't happy, I'll try to fix things and make it right, and if that doesn't work, I'll just hand them their money back and sell the frame for whatever I can get for it, or give it away to a friend. This has only happened a couple of times, but I've certainly had to re-do/change things and repowdercoat a number of times. C'est la vie. I'm not in this to get filthy rich, so I'd rather not spend my time worrying about credit card disputes and angry people.

As a side note, I basically believe that 2-5% of the general population is totally insane. Not so bad. But about 50% (or maybe more) of the CAD-drawing bicycle crowd is. So I generally refuse to build stuff for people who send me lots of detailed plans. My psycho-dar is pretty good at this point. I like to send those folks to XACD.

-Walt


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Walt said:


> t 2-5% of the general population is totally insane. Not so bad. But about 50% (or maybe more) of the CAD-drawing bicycle crowd is. So I generally refuse to build stuff for people who send me lots of detailed plans.


That's it. I'm recording this for our companies voicemail.

Thank you, Walt.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Great advise Dave , Walt and Thylcine !!

I knew something was up with this customer from the start but honestly didn't think he would take the cake for WORST Customer EVER!!!!!

I'm taking my time to properly document each of the listed #'s on his spec sheet with VERY detailed photos and submitting each to the CC company for their evaluation .

I also took time out of my day this morning to meet with my attorney about future legal action against this wonderful individual and the prospect's look very good I must say !!!

Thanks for the words of advise everyone , help me keep my head up and work through this ordeal right now !!!


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2009)

*re-eval*

As a side note, I basically believe that 2-5% of the general population is totally insane. Not so bad. But about 50% (or maybe more) of the CAD-drawing bicycle crowd is. So I generally refuse to build stuff for people who send me lots of detailed plans. My psycho-dar is pretty good at this point. I like to send those folks to XACD.

-Walt[/QUOTE]

Walt

You are a very optimistic person! You should visit California sometime then re-evaluate your numbers. In my line of work i have found 95-98% to be insane, myself included. (i kid of corse...kinda)

For CAD you got to go with 99.9%. I once head of a kid in Ruanda that designed a better wooden bicycle on one of those cool Ruanda laptops, it changed his village for the better I dont think he was nuts, he just did not know any better.
laters-jim


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Don't bother*

I think you missed my point - you've already spent too much time and worry on this, over what, $500-$1000 of profit (I don't know what you charge for your stuff, but I assume it's in that range)? That's an hour or two of consult with an attorney, let alone actually taking someone to court! And for what?

Even if the legal mumbo jumbo was free, you'd be past the point of this being worthwhile just in terms of your own time pretty quickly. Write it off. Give the person their money back and walk away. At least, that's what I'd do. Nobody wins in court but the lawyers.

As a bit of a digression (and this isn't directed at you personally) people have a very hard time with throwing good money/time/effort after bad. Then again, people aren't always rational - we value a loss much more (ie, we'll try harder to avoid it) than we'll work for an equivalent gain. What if I told you I had a job opportunity for you - you can spend days arguing with some jerk on the phone, fight over credit card charges, and then spend months fighting a stupid legal battle (you're responsible for hiring the attorney, btw) - and I'll pay you a fat $1000. You'd refuse instantly, right?

-Walt



Evil4bc said:


> I'm taking my time to properly document each of the listed #'s on his spec sheet with VERY detailed photos and submitting each to the CC company for their evaluation .
> 
> I also took time out of my day this morning to meet with my attorney about future legal action against this wonderful individual and the prospect's look very good I must say !!!
> 
> Thanks for the words of advise everyone , help me keep my head up and work through this ordeal right now !!!


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

I feel inclined to defend the other %1 of customers who provide CAD drawings and detailed specifics. Sanity is irrelevant as long as the requests are reasonable, no?


In my case:

With a degree in mechanical illustration and 4 years previous experience doing sales & fitting for a custom builder (Davidson), I felt qualified to provide CAD drawings as the quickest way to communicate the geometry I was looking for.
I felt it was fair to provide geometry, cable routing, & functional details (i.e. fork length) only. I would always trust the builder with tubing selection, fabrication details, and to provide honest feedback. I recognized the builder (not me) was the expert everywhere else.
As for the geometry... well I know how I ride, and I've seen builders sell touring bikes to dirt jumpers. It's the responsibility of the customer to communicate their needs as a *rider*.
Lastly, I was prepared to happily pay for a bike that rode like crap, if it was due to the geometry I provided. Fortunately I got exactly what I was hoping for. 

I _*do *_think it's perfectly reasonable for a builder to say "_this is your custom design, it's going to be extra work so it will cost extra, and you are obligated to pay in full even if you end up not liking the design you provided."_


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Well I guess it more over priceable right now , I didn't appreciate him creating problems them blatantly lying to his CC company over the quality of the product produced .

So with the funds frozen in one of my accounts I have been given the venue to respond , thus I am with the most detailed information possible to help find a solution to retrieving my funds back .

I'm not going to issue a refund to some neurotically anal customer who after contracting me to build a one off bike changes their mind and creates problems in their own head .

YES I have time and money invested in this bike and therefor it's in my best interest financially to continue to fight this .

Walt
I honestly respect your opinion and appreciate your wisdom and advise very much , I will not bow out to this A-hole admitting that I created a inferior product 



Walt said:


> I think you missed my point - you've already spent too much time and worry on this, over what, $500-$1000 of profit (I don't know what you charge for your stuff, but I assume it's in that range)? That's an hour or two of consult with an attorney, let alone actually taking someone to court! And for what?
> 
> Even if the legal mumbo jumbo was free, you'd be past the point of this being worthwhile just in terms of your own time pretty quickly. Write it off. Give the person their money back and walk away. At least, that's what I'd do. Nobody wins in court but the lawyers.
> 
> ...


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Gotta admit, it's been very interesting reading the two differing perspectives of this business transaction play out on the MTBR boards as the customer's focal issues are a bit different than those of the builders.

Lesson to be learned by all, solid honest communication in a timely manner is key to a successful working relationship. If that fails, I operate by the rule...be better to the customer than he is to me. Though you may lose a bit in the effort, many more will bear witness to your moral stance and ultimately bolster your reputation as a professional.

cheers,

rody


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Rody said:


> If that fails, I operate by the rule...be better to the customer than he is to me. Though you may lose a bit in the effort, many more will bear witness to your moral stance and ultimately bolster your reputation as a professional.


 :thumbsup: Note to self: Investigate this Groovy Cycle Works company... :thumbsup:


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Rody said:


> Gotta admit, it's been very interesting reading the two differing perspectives of this business transaction play out on the MTBR boards as the customer's focal issues are a bit different than those of the builders.


I love the smell of dirty laundry in the morning.

Where is this other thread?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*The customer is always...*

...right

-W


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

The unfortunate thing is that when crap is being hurled around, everyone receives some. Who the hell wants to order a frame knowing that if it's discrepant he has the option of keeping it or going to court? I read the other thread, and the individual seemed to be rational and have real concerns. Walt has the correct perspective. Keep his sanity, reputation and the integrity of his trade.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Personally, I like seeing the CAD files prior to build on any project including bike frames. The quick overview gives the reader full disclosure on what is to be built. Now for tweaking the dwg that is up to the builder. Most individuals have a hobbiest at best understanding of mechanical specifications and should understand that fact from the get go. Modifying a proven design or going against the grain of the builder is normally not a win - win solution. 

Say for example one wants a 29er with 1/8th" dia. CS & SS fitting a 4" wide rear tire with zero flex. Well this might not be the best solution and taking this order will most likely result in issues never mind that a 4" wide 29er tire does not yet exist (that I'm aware of). 

One can have issues with not only custom frames, but production as well. For example I was looking at replacing a broken FS frame. Ordered the replacement and noticed that the fork would not clear the DT with a +5mm headset, suspension bolts out of alignment 5 mm and rear drops measured at 144.7 mm via dial caliper. In speaking with the fabricator they just recommended bending al back till it was closer and that the fork interference is a design issue which will be addressed in next years version. This is where I would argue for the customer in that a production frame with a known design issues was shipped without disclosure. 

Having owned a few custom frames over the years I can say that most every single frame was perfect from the start. Only had a minor issue with one in which the builder and I resolved peacefully.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

If someone gives me a bad vibe, I think it would be doing both of us a favor to recommend another builder. 

I've seen a few customers post about custom frames that never should have been shipped. Some of them were even happy with the frame. But if a customer was unhappy enough with a frame to send it back, I think I would feel compelled to offer a refund at that point. If they don't accept, I hope they would be impressed with my willingness to make things right. If they do accept, hopefully it would stop the bleeding. I'm guessing one bad forum thread about a builder is the equivalent of some serious marketing $$$$


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

I think he's referring to this thread.

Every argument has two viewpoints...

Eric



Thylacine said:


> I love the smell of dirty laundry in the morning.
> 
> Where is this other thread?


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

one thing I gotta say is he needs to raise the prices on his frames.


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## AL29er (Jan 14, 2004)

seat_boy said:


> I think he's referring to this thread.
> 
> Every argument has two viewpoints...
> 
> Eric


Well, not the first time we have seen Evil4bc's dirty laundry aired here on mtbr. Probably not the last either. Too much pride/arrogance. I think as a custom builder you have to calculate how much you want to hang your head out, that way when things go south there is no more loss than the worst case that you had prepared for. Walt has already stated a similar mentality as the best course. Throwing good money after bad will not fix situations like that one.

Custom work for picky customers who can't make up their minds is bad news. I have been bitten by that on fixed cost contracts that I have done CAD work on. Never a pretty picture.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

there is an interview with Richard Sachs where he was asked why he think custom frames became so popular. He credits internet forums. There seems to be a lot of truth to that. So to me it seems self destructive to feed any sort of consumer distrust of your brand by not being as accommodating as possible to every customer, especially those you think are behaving badly.

One time when I was a bike mechanic, I had a customer's bike up on the stand adjusting his derailleurs. When I stopped the wheel using the brake, the brake cable snapped. I charged him for replacing the cable, it was about $5 total. When he got the bill, he accused me of ripping him off in a very loud voice. This didn't go down well with me since I probably saved him from a harrowing experience, but my boss was smarter than me and didn't charge him. I'm sure it was worth more than $5 in advertising given the size of the crowd in the shop at the time.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

unterhausen said:


> This didn't go down well with me since I probably saved him from a harrowing experience, but my boss was smarter than me and didn't charge him. I'm sure it was worth more than $5 in advertising given the size of the crowd in the shop at the time.


Disagreements, issues and problems are a fact of life for all of us. We all make mistakes and we all have personalities that we clash with. My thoughts are that it's more important how I deal with problems then if things go right all the time. I have nothing but my reputation in this gig and I will do almost anything to maintain that. Plus as I have gotten older I am less inclined and have less energy to try and get into a issue with anyone.

With that being said, if I had any problems at all and they have been few and far between it was when I was a newer builder dealing with people who may have had false expectations. I try diligently to set the proper expectation now and weed out those that may not mesh real well with what I do or what I can do.

I hope this works out for both of them. The internet really has changed things and what would have been a basically private matter before is no longer. The consumer only needs to read one negative entry and it can be over for them. Short story. I have had two minor frame failures in my career. Both when I was new, one before I even ever sold a frame. I used to give away frames to racers to build up my skills when I was new. These were free of charge. After a year of racing a Cat 1 rider pulled the seat tube from the BB because I had done a poor job brazing it. I repaired it and said racer used the frame for another season. People saw this and heard about it. 12 years later I overheard someone at a bicycle store who didn't know I was there state quite plainly that my frames break. I had come just a little way since then. There was no cost to the racer but even then a negative thing can stick with you and these forums can be just the same because the other side of the story is completely missing.

I think I beat this to death, but it is important. Like I said, More so than your frames or quality or how nice you are it's about your rep and that, unlike a frame can't be repaired easily.

Dave B
Bohemian Bicycles


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

unterhausen said:


> there is an interview with Richard Sachs where he was asked why he think custom frames became so popular. He credits internet forums. There seems to be a lot of truth to that. So to me it seems self destructive to feed any sort of consumer distrust of your brand by not being as accommodating as possible to every customer, especially those you think are behaving badly.
> 
> One time when I was a bike mechanic, I had a customer's bike up on the stand adjusting his derailleurs. When I stopped the wheel using the brake, the brake cable snapped. I charged him for replacing the cable, it was about $5 total. When he got the bill, he accused me of ripping him off in a very loud voice. This didn't go down well with me since I probably saved him from a harrowing experience, but my boss was smarter than me and didn't charge him. I'm sure it was worth more than $5 in advertising given the size of the crowd in the shop at the time.


Totally agree; that's the point I was trying to make. The negative feedback is going to hurt this guy's business, and reflect on other framebuilders as well.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

AL29er said:


> Well, not the first time we have seen Evil4bc's dirty laundry aired here on mtbr. Probably not the last either. Too much pride/arrogance. I think as a custom builder you have to calculate how much you want to hang your head out, that way when things go south there is no more loss than the worst case that you had prepared for. Walt has already stated a similar mentality as the best course. Throwing good money after bad will not fix situations like that one.
> 
> Custom work for picky customers who can't make up their minds is bad news. I have been bitten by that on fixed cost contracts that I have done CAD work on. Never a pretty picture.


Ahhh the Internet Oh joy :thumbsup:

AL29er
You have very good points reguarding the internet and being burned by clients.
To my defense I in fact did not know about the thread linked above until today. The thread started by my bad customer was in fact started on july 26th well before I posted my feeling here in this thread on aug 11.
I dont think I even delivered the frame to him until the 23rd of that month he never even road the bike or gave us a chance before he came on here and cried to the masses , so my point being from the start is that the Internet can change a customers perception of a product be it good or bad .
Most of the problems stated in his thread are for the most part created in his head and have no basis toward the product in question 

If a customer starts a "build thread" on the internet and then changes the design several times for the builder per suggestions generated from this forum how can the end builder live up to not only the expectations of the end customer but the entire internet ????

My customer never even gave us a chance to make whatever problem he had right , he went straight to the net and these forums without ever communicating his feeling to me the builder . So much so that his thread completely escaped my attention until today wile reading this thread .

Wile other have aired dirty laundry in the past on other forums about me there was always a interesting back story .
The first time was by a very close friend who had been selling off every single thing he owned on various web forums to support his consumption of illegal substances .
I and a few other friends confronted him about this , me saying we would not give him the bike he owned us $150 on until it was completely paid off ... so we cried his eyes out on the other non moderated bike forum to gain support from the masses without telling the whole story .
Second time: A customer of mine from Finland who didn't have such a good understanding of the internet and the english language started a thread about some components that were lost in shipping . After 2 set's of components arrived he has been a life long supporter and customer , and still to this day apologies for starting that thread.

Why do I bring up past customers ? Because BOTH these customers who have voiced bad blood toward me in the past have now become REPETE customers. This is a pretty common thing , I even sold another frame to a repeat customer this morning who cited just needing another bike and not wanting to deal with the internet to figure out what's "cool " right now go figure.

My standing is that when under the suggestion of internet forums the customer isn't always right , but there's always a back story . In this case the story escapes me as I the builder have been left in the dark for the most part it as it looks like now :skep:


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## qbert2000 (Jul 30, 2008)

Evil4bc said:


> Ahhh the Internet Oh joy :thumbsup:
> 
> AL29er
> You have very good points reguarding the internet and being burned by clients.
> ...


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## AL29er (Jan 14, 2004)

Evil4bc said:


> Why do I bring up past customers ? Because BOTH these customers who have voiced bad blood toward me in the past have now become REPETE customers. This is a pretty common thing , I even sold another frame to a repeat customer this morning who cited just needing another bike and not wanting to deal with the internet to figure out what's "cool " right now go figure.
> 
> My standing is that when under the suggestion of internet forums the customer isn't always right , but there's always a back story . In this case the story escapes me as I the builder have been left in the dark for the most part it as it looks like now :skep:


Word 
It is the resolution of problems that sets the stage for repeat business. And yes, the internet is packed with some fairly ruthless customers. That old hell hath no fury saying come to mind, but that woman has nothing on an internet crier on a mission.

I can sympathize to some degree. When I found that the chainstay yoke on my $3K ventana rubbed paint off a weld I felt like ripping someone a new one. Needless to say I didn't and Sherwood repaired the frame. I have no issue buying from him again due to his handling of that and a couple of other little items. He could have argued with me and said nothing is wrong with the frame. I guess I could have reversed charges on my card and ran to the internet screaming about it then. Fortunately neither of us was into that whole mess, so a reasonable solution was worked out. Unfortunately not everyone out there is reasonable.

Honestly I think staying out of that other thread is about the best practice. Unless he publicly calls you out there is little to be gained by getting heated over it. Last I read he had kept it generic and intentionally not mentioned the company.


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## klondikebike (Jul 11, 2006)

*Custom is good!*

My Eva Braun outfit fits me perfectly, and i'm 6'7".
Could never have gotten one without custom.
Er........ wait.
Wrong forum.


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## bulgie (Jun 20, 2008)

*Builder's story is not believable*



Evil4bc said:


> {[big snip]}
> Later the next week I received a Email from the customer stating that the rear end wasn't 135mm ??
> I didn't know how to relply to this as we use ANVIL dummy axles and at the time I didn't notice the frame to require any extra effort to put the dummy axle in or out .
> I asked the customer to document this with photos and of course it was the LBS who told him the bike wasn't 135mm the customer never measured the bike from what I gather ??
> ...


I'm coming in to this late, sorry if this has been mentioned, buit the builder's story that the frame went back to 135 spacing, on its own with no cold setting, is not believable. I am not a metallurgist but I did have materials science classes in engineering school and was a full-time pro framebuilder for 20 years. I have neved known a bike frame to "creep" over time. Creep is known in some structural materials but not at room temperature in any metals used in bike frames.

I see only three possibilities:
1. Someone else in Evil4bc's shop cold set it without telling Evil4bc about it.
2. Evil4bc cold set it and lied about it.
3. Frame is so seriously weak that it yielded (bent) at the instant Evil4bc put the "spreader axle" in.

Evil4bc's quote above sure makes it sound like he never measured the rear spacing before he sent it out. The only reason he says he thought it must have been right is that "at the time I didn't notice the frame to require any extra effort to put the dummy axle in or out". OK maybe this builder is really weak at making his case in this forum, but it sounds like an admission that he didn't measure it.

Then he seems to imply there is something fishy about the buyer having a bike shop measure it for him. Sorry man, that's what almost any customer would and should do. If you're making some accusation, don't be so coy about it, come out and say it. Without evidence though you just sound paranoid and defensive.

I the buyer's story is true, that Evil4bc had the frame back for a month before he (buyer) cancelled the charge on the cc, then I'd have to side with buyer, he had no choice at that time. If that story is not true then Evil4bc should be able to prove it pretty easily, so why was no evidence of that sent to us here at the forum? Again it could be that Evil4bc is just really bad at making his case here (and that is not a crime), but from what has been written here and in the other thread, it sure looks like the poor buyer had a lot of his precious time wasted and I'm glad he got his money back.

I have no dog in this fight -- I don't know who Evil4bc is or what brand of bikes he makes, I don't know the buyer, and since I am no longer in the bike biz these last 10 years, I am not a competitor, I buy my bikes retail now like most people.

-bulgie


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I love how my well meaning, comical thread has been usurped. Thanks for that, you bastidz.

Anyway, to balance it all out, I might just go have a beer that a customer bought over to say thanks for going above and beyond.

No wait, 9am is probably too early....


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Do it!*

It's 5:30 here, so have one for me!

-W



Thylacine said:


> I love how my well meaning, comical thread has been usurped. Thanks for that, you bastidz.
> 
> Anyway, to balance it all out, I might just go have a beer that a customer bought over to say thanks for going above and beyond.
> 
> No wait, 9am is probably too early....


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

Thylacine said:


> I love how my well meaning, comical thread has been usurped. Thanks for that, you bastidz.
> 
> Anyway, to balance it all out, I might just go have a beer that a customer bought over to say thanks for going above and beyond.
> 
> No wait, 9am is probably too early....


hey its late somewhere. and 9am might be construed as late for a a lot of people i know.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) my days of staying out all night are well and truely over.

Okay, just to balance out the Karma, I want everyone to tell me a "Why custom bikes rock" story.

Mine of course involves this six pack of tasty microbrewed Pale Ale. Customer recently bought a very shiny Tephra XCR from us, but decided after he go his equally shiny green KCNC bits for it, that for some reason he wanted Salsa green bits instead, which I indulged him. So now he's gone from happy to super-happy....and later on, so will I, I guess. *beer*

Appreciative customers lead to appreciative sellers of custom frames which leads to a whole 'nuther level of good vibes all-round.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

Walt said:


> It's 5:30 here, so have one for me!
> 
> -W


a guy would go into a bar and order two beers and drink them both. Bartender asked why, and the guy told him the second beer was for his brother, who was too far away to drink with him. One day he only orders one beer. Bartender asks if something has happened to the brother, guy responds, "no, he's fine. I stopped drinking."

I would like to hear happy custom frame stories too. You can find them if you look.


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## BeatAFool (Jan 14, 2008)

> I would like to hear happy custom frame stories too. You can find them if you look.


From a customers side.........

somewhere around 15 yrs ago I was looking for a road frame. Same ol' story, hated what was out there, nothing fit right. Searching for a custom builder wasn't easy. The WWW wasn't what it is today and in the southeast when you say "frame builder" they think NASCAR. I finally found the builder I wanted and called him up. We talked about what I had, what I was looking for, what I hated and what I liked. He ask the questions. I gave the answers. I had an idea what I wanted but I had no idea what I needed. He built the frame/stem/fork that he felt was best suited for the riding I was doing. All I did was pick out the colors. I let him do what I was paying him to do, fit the right bike under me. It's the best riding frame I've ever been on. It was/is perfect. I still have this frame. It's seen it's better days. The cable stops got rusty, the paints chipped, the decals came off, it started to look ugly but it still rode the same. I hung it up last year and robbed all the parts off of it and put them on my own frame. I love riding "my" frame but it still doesn't have that same feel. Maybe one day I'll figure it out.


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