# FS vs HT reality check



## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

I’ve never owned or ridden a FS bike. I’m 61 years old and quite fit for age. I run 8 miles a day or ride 2 hours on my HT or fatty. I ride for enjoyment and fitness, not speed. I love climbing. I’ve been considering an FS bike because apparently us old people need smooth riding bikes as we age. There are times I relish a nicer ride. But every time I’m out riding which is nearly every day, I have a smile on my face. In my recent research on FS bikes, not on;y am I turned off by the ridiculous prices, I’m turned off by the complexity and the potential of pedaling in a pool of wet cement. I like simple, minimal, and elegant lines. I’m at the point where I believe my next major bike purchase will be a nice Ti, or steel bike with moderate geometry and A nice fork. Maybe even SS. I’ll deal with old man’s syndrome when it arrives. I’m not there yet. I’m thinking Niner SIR9, or a Canfield Nimble 9 With 27.5 wheels. I’m short and stand over is an issue for me. Speed is irrelevant. No KOM’s needed. Only fun and fitness. Am I alone?


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## Mk3Rider (Dec 7, 2008)

Niner SIR 9 with carbon 27.5 wheels and 2.8" wide tires is what I ride most of the time. HR2 front rekons rear. Marzocchi Z2 fork and eagle drivetrain.

It covers most all of the riding I care to do which is mostly xc riding at this point. Worked flawless on my yearly trip to Bentonville also with two 40+ mile days.

Other bike that is ridden a lot is my suzi q fatbike. Last year I ran carbon fat wheels with hodags, this year I am on 29 x 2.8s. Run a wren fork in the warmer months.

Both of these bikes have a 68deg headtube. The suzi q has a longer reach and much lower bars. The sir9 is for all day comfort with a more up right position.

I do have a 150/140mm travel 29er also. I am absolutely faster on that bike on the single track trails I ride. But, looking at last year's mileage across my bikes, it is hard to justify it. Looking back, I wish I would have just bought something like a niner rkt for a fs bike. 

The 27.5+ bikes ride a lot like a short travel 29er from my experience. Enough cush in the rear wheel and a steel frame to provide really good ride quality.


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## frana (Jan 5, 2008)

I ride a Scott Spark 2017. The remote 3 position lockout makes for efficient pedaling, pretty locked out when locked. I use it all the time when climbing , easily switching between modes as the terrain changes.


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## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

Mk3Rider said:


> Niner SIR 9 with carbon 27.5 wheels and 2.8" wide tires is what I ride most of the time. HR2 front rekons rear. Wren Marzocchi Z2 fork and eagle drivetrain.
> 
> It covers most all of the riding I care to do which is mostly xc riding at this point. Worked flawless on my yearly trip to Bentonville also with two 40+ mile days.
> 
> ...


How is the Wren working for you?


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## Mk3Rider (Dec 7, 2008)

I feel it is a good fork. Adjusted the negative air spring to make the fork progressive in nature. It is very plush and precise in handling. Honestly, it is dialed in so well I rarely notice it is there and I never run out of traction. It feels similar to my 150mm pike @ 30% sag. Feels better than the z2.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I like taking the edge off. Let the 20-something racers get pounded on the hardtails.

My cars are full suspension too.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

I only have a hardtail SS and love it.

You should try full suspension. They’re insanely fun.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Schmeg said:


> I’m at the point where I believe my next major bike purchase will be a nice Ti, or steel bike with moderate geometry and A nice fork. Maybe even SS. I’ll deal with old man’s syndrome when it arrives. I’m not there yet. Speed is irrelevant. No KOM’s needed. Only fun and fitness. Am I alone?


Every time these threads come up I wonder what kind of terrain are people riding? I haven't ridden a hardtail in anger in probably twenty years now. I've no desire to. Rear suspension means I can ride for longer and more often. Not to mention considerably faster and reduce trashing rear wheels. 
Just look for updated geo and probably not a huge amount of rear travel, I don't know, 120mm front, 100mm rear?


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

I'm still on a hard tail much of the time, but for long events or rough places like Moab my solution is a soft tail with 20mm of travel at the rear axle and 120mm up front.


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## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

Mudguard said:


> Every time these threads come up I wonder what kind of terrain are people riding? I haven't ridden a hardtail in anger in probably twenty years now. I've no desire to. Rear suspension means I can ride for longer and more often. Not to mention considerably faster and reduce trashing rear wheels.
> Just look for updated geo and probably not a huge amount of rear travel, I don't know, 120mm front, 100mm rear?


Northern New England. I don’t ride parks. There is little to zero flow trails. Mostly Mother Nature made boulder and rock strewn twisty trails festooned with tree roots. Short punchy ups and downs. i guess XC style trails through thickly wooded areas best describes where I ride.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Short-travel 29ers have been worked out for awhile. My lass at 5-3 is on board, too. The rollover on rough terrain is priceless. Twisty trails not an issue with less than extreme geometry.

Try a demo bike if you can. For what you’re describing a Revel Ranger would blow your mind. Mentally prepare for a lot of pivots, problem solved. The platform is too useful for a ‘core recreationalist to not have one in the fleet.


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## Laupe (Jan 9, 2022)

Orbea oiz TR would be the perfect bike for you. 3 position lockout, so you can have the shock in middle mode, so it doesn't wobble. Orbea has very good value for money bikes and very elegant frame lines. The frame also have a very short stand over height. Perfect for you in my opinion!


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## Reaperactual (Apr 20, 2020)

After lots of great times and fun over the years on my much loved hardtails, finally decided to treat myself to a full sus frame.

Orange Five Evo.









A bit of a Marmite design, basically a 'hinge with a shock in the middle' but only two pivot bearings to worry about. Ticks the simplicity box as much as possible going from hardtail to full sus.

Since deciding to get one I'm noticing every bump and bone shake so mostly looking forward to a nice smooth plush ride for a change.


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## Amt0571 (May 22, 2014)

FS bikes ride great. Especially when they're not creaking, clicking, or undergoing bearing or shock service, which is almost always.

That's why I only ride hardtails. I have enough having to service a fork and a dropper post.


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

Schmeg said:


> ...turned off by the ridiculous prices...I’m turned off by the complexity and the potential of pedaling in a pool of wet cement.


Ridiculous prices - true
Complexity - sort of. Designs have come a long way. Pivot bearing replacement for the type of riding you're describing might be somewhere between three years and never. Forks/shocks last a long time and nobody actually services them at the stated intervals. Basic services aren't that difficult and can be done at home via Youtube videos in a couple of hours (much faster when you know what you're doing). Hardtails/rigid hubs and wheels get the crap beaten out of them. That's the unseen complexity of such bikes.
Pedaling in a pool of wet cement - not even close unless you're buying some high pivot DH bike. Seated pedaling is very good and very efficient. If you like to stand and power up steep hills, that might not feel so good on certain designs.


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## Reaperactual (Apr 20, 2020)

Don't trust anyone enough to work on my bikes. Going full sus just means more stuff to Google, YouTube and learn how to do at home.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

I'm a longtime hardtail rider, but I finally caved and bought a Ripmo AF in January. Honestly, there hasn't really been much of a downside. I can't say I ride all that much differently on my FS, but it's more forgiving and my bum ankle doesn't get as big of a beating. Pedaling is definitely not "wet cement" on that platform.

If you like hardtails though, there's nothing wrong with that. I had a blast on mine. I would likely not choose the hardtail now for rowdier trails, but I didn't shy away from riding those when a hardtail was my main trail bike.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Right now I only have a hardtail and I prefer hardtails for local rides under 2 to 2.5 hours. With a 2 year old at home and a bunch of house projects going on, that is about all the time I have to get in a ride right now. 

However I want to add a full sus for longer rides and out of town rides. Having the extra forgiveness is nice for longer rides and unfamiliar trails.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

I'm 67, been mt. biking 33 years, have used FS's plus HT's. My recent go to ride is a Specialized aluminum HT. It's snappy, quick handling, climbs like no other bike I've ever used, and accelerates when you punch the power. I don't ride on rocks, we don't really have any here on Long Island, just roots, stumps, logs, etc... I did notice my butt getting beat up a bit and treated myself to a new carbon FS a few weeks ago when I retired, My goal was not much heavier than my HT which I achieved. The FS does what I ask and smooths the ride. I can pick a better line now not worrying about a rear hit, with the rear absorbing the bumps. Climbing is as good, due to a well designed suspension, wheelbase is longer, but steering is as quick, so it's possible to go FS without losing any of the positive attributes you like in an HT.


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## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

goldsbar said:


> Ridiculous prices - true
> Complexity - sort of. Designs have come a long way. Pivot bearing replacement for the type of riding you're describing might be somewhere between three years and never. Forks/shocks last a long time and nobody actually services them at the stated intervals. Basic services aren't that difficult and can be done at home via Youtube videos in a couple of hours (much faster when you know what you're doing). Hardtails/rigid hubs and wheels get the crap beaten out of them. That's the unseen complexity of such bikes.
> Pedaling in a pool of wet cement - not even close unless you're buying some high pivot DH bike. Seated pedaling is very good and very efficient. If you like to stand and power up steep hills, that might not feel so good on certain designs.


That’s one of the issues. I stand while climbing as a rule. Pedal bob would drive me nuts. I do see the advantages of rollover and compliance.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

I started on a hardtail and have always loved them. But where I Iive in rooty, rocky, wet New England, I like having a FS. As I've gotten older suspension has gotten more important. Riding a hardtail in rough terrain can really do a number on my joints.


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## L1kesb1kes (Apr 24, 2021)

In my experience modern, short travel fs bikes are generally more efficient than old school hardtails on the type of terrain uve got up there. However, they definitely reward a different technique of riding that u may not enjoy as much.

On a good full suspension the best option up a lot of climbs is to sit and spin while monster trucking over the rough stuff. You only stand and use a lot of body english on the steepest, roughest spots. It sounds like you enjoy being active on the climbs while the full suspension really encourages you to be less active.

I say if ur happy, keep the hardball until you're not happy with it anymore.


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## double_b (May 31, 2007)

I'm 52. I recently went from a Trek Stache hardtail to a Giant Trance X 29 FS. I love climbing too and while I loved the Stache the Trance X brings a different dimension to the climbing. I like climbing for the challenge and with the HT it was how fast could I climb. I thought I would miss that, but the Trance X brings a different dimension, which is not speed at climbing but the insane traction from the full squish....I continue to be amazed at just how the f*&^ng thing sticks to the trail when climbing. If you can put the power to the pedals you will go over anything. It's crazy. One trail system I ride is Rocky Ridge, it's name is appropriate. It's very rocky. I've cleared sections I never did on the Stache. So instead of seeing how fast I can climb I now see what I can climb cleanly without any foot taps.

I was worried about the increased weight of the FS (5 pounds heavier than Stache) but after a few rides I think the only sluggishness I feel is the low rolling resistance of the Dissector rear tire, which at first I thought I wanted lighter tires but I don't want to give up the traction.

On the downside of the hill the full squish is even more impressive, I still try to pick the best lines but the FS does give more leeway. The last few rides on my Stache I got my feet thrown off the pedals more and more. That hasn't happened yet with the Trance X. A very welcome improvement.

Finally, my knees (actually the tops of my shins) don't hurt at the end of a ride. I'm fresher longer on the FS and that makes it better overall.


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## Amt0571 (May 22, 2014)

goldsbar said:


> Ridiculous prices - true
> Complexity - sort of. Designs have come a long way. Pivot bearing replacement for the type of riding you're describing might be somewhere between three years and never. Forks/shocks last a long time and nobody actually services them at the stated intervals.


I'm sorry, but I dissagree. Forks and shocks don't last a long time if you don't service them at the stated intervals.

Most shocks and forks performance starts to diminish noticieably after a certain point, and if you keep using them without a proper service things like scratched stanchions or play in the bushings can develop quickly. I've seen several trashed forks after a couple of years and less than 5000km without servicing.

Of course, that doesn't mean the bike is going to break in half, but spending money on a bike to not propely care of it is absurd.

The same happens with pivot bearings. They end up having play. You may keep riding it untill the balls fall out of the races, but the performance and feel of the bike will be crap, and you end up risking damage to something more expensive.


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## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

Laupe said:


> Orbea oiz TR would be the perfect bike for you. 3 position lockout, so you can have the shock in middle mode, so it doesn't wobble. Orbea has very good value for money bikes and very elegant frame lines. The frame also have a very short stand over height. Perfect for you in my opinion!


Thanks for the recommendation. That top tube design is a big deal for me. It is similar to my Fatback and provides the stand over I’m looking for.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Schmeg said:


> I’ve never owned or ridden a FS bike. I’m 61 years old and quite fit for age. I run 8 miles a day or ride 2 hours on my HT or fatty. I ride for enjoyment and fitness, not speed. I love climbing. I’ve been considering an FS bike because apparently us old people need smooth riding bikes as we age. There are times I relish a nicer ride. But every time I’m out riding which is nearly every day, I have a smile on my face. In my recent research on FS bikes, not on;y am I turned off by the ridiculous prices, I’m turned off by the complexity and the potential of pedaling in a pool of wet cement. I like simple, minimal, and elegant lines. I’m at the point where I believe my next major bike purchase will be a nice Ti, or steel bike with moderate geometry and A nice fork. Maybe even SS. I’ll deal with old man’s syndrome when it arrives. I’m not there yet. I’m thinking Niner SIR9, or a Canfield Nimble 9 With 27.5 wheels. I’m short and stand over is an issue for me. Speed is irrelevant. No KOM’s needed. Only fun and fitness. Am I alone?


I have both HT and FS bikes. My HT is Ti Singlespeed (22lbs) and it is so much fun to ride. I have 2 FS bikes one is a light cross country bike (23lbs) and other is heavier Enduro style bike (30lbs). I know that for long rides and bike climbs the best bike is my light FS bike. It climbs so well and is very comfortable especially over long rides (3hr-24 hrs). It is nothing like pedaling in mush. My enduro bike is much heavier and while it pedals very well for the type of bike it is I cannot consider it fast climbing bike unless the trail is very rocky. That said I have some PR's climbing on that bike. I believe in that today's world that geared HT is no longer needed unless you are doing specific races. A light 100mm travel XC FS is so efficient and light now that at HT just unneeded discomfort. Of course a super light XC FS bike is not going to be cheap. So if you don't want to spend lots of money a geared HT is fine. I love my SS HT because is a very different riding style that I really enjoy.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

There is nothing "wet cement" about a well designed FS frame.

But yes, there is more expense and maintenance. Though no more than a suspension fork.

And if you do keep on top of proper maintenance, forks, shocks and rear linkages last pretty much indefinitely and keep peak performance.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

Schmeg said:


> I’ve never owned or ridden a FS bike. I’m 61 years old and quite fit for age. I run 8 miles a day or ride 2 hours on my HT or fatty. I ride for enjoyment and fitness, not speed. I love climbing. I’ve been considering an FS bike because apparently us old people need smooth riding bikes as we age. There are times I relish a nicer ride. But every time I’m out riding which is nearly every day, I have a smile on my face. In my recent research on FS bikes, not on;y am I turned off by the ridiculous prices, I’m turned off by the complexity and the potential of pedaling in a pool of wet cement. I like simple, minimal, and elegant lines. I’m at the point where I believe my next major bike purchase will be a nice Ti, or steel bike with moderate geometry and A nice fork. Maybe even SS. I’ll deal with old man’s syndrome when it arrives. I’m not there yet. I’m thinking Niner SIR9, or a Canfield Nimble 9 With 27.5 wheels. I’m short and stand over is an issue for me. Speed is irrelevant. No KOM’s needed. Only fun and fitness. Am I alone?


You should see if there are rentals in your area. FS bikes rarely pedal like wet cement with correct shock set up and there are plenty of shorter travel lightweight bikes out there that would suit.

I love hard tails! But can't deny how much nicer FS is on my back and knees...


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

I love my longer travel full squish when I'm going out of town for a long weekend on unfamiliar trails, but on the ones I know well locally, I'm not sure I can tell much difference outside of chunk, whether up or down. There is nothing wrong with a good hardtail.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I only have a hardtail SS and love it.
> 
> You should try full suspension. They’re insanely fun.


??? I thought you had a La Sal Peak?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Curveball said:


> ??? I thought you had a La Sal Peak?


I did, I sold it to fund a custom hardtail frame… it was a super fun bike but it rarely got ridden.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Schmeg said:


> Northern New England. I don’t ride parks. There is little to zero flow trails. Mostly Mother Nature made boulder and rock strewn twisty trails festooned with tree roots. Short punchy ups and downs. i guess XC style trails through thickly wooded areas best describes where I ride.


Boulders, rocks, and tree roots at 61 sounds very much like a good situation for a FS bike. I won't offer any specifics on particular bikes, but that sort of terrain might be pretty hard on you with a HT at your age. I think a newer generation FS bike would make you very happy.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Schmeg said:


> That’s one of the issues. I stand while climbing as a rule. Pedal bob would drive me nuts. I do see the advantages of rollover and compliance.


After riding too soft FS bikes for so long, I gave up on standing to pedal. And then after a good many years, with my new bike I tried it again and found that it will actually get up and go quite well. The new suspension is quite a revelation.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I did, I sold it to fund a custom hardtail frame… it was a super fun bike but it rarely got ridden.


I bet that La Sal Peak would be quite a thrill on my local trails.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Schmeg said:


> , I’m turned off by the complexity and the potential of pedaling in a pool of wet cement.


You should demo some. They aren't like that.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Curveball said:


> I bet that La Sal Peak would be quite a thrill on my local trails.


It was a blast in places like Sedona and Mt Lemmon. I just don’t ride that stuff often enough to make it worth it.


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

One of each. My right knee isn’t cool with the SS life unfortunately.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

I pulled back from fs because they were less fun on my trails for the way I like to ride. The same fun on fs bikes involved hucking myself at speed and I don’t wear armor and full face. I was going to get hurt.

Also the maintainance can be awful if you ride a lot in the rain and mud. Suspension bearings weren’t lasting me a year and it was much much more trouble than servicing a fork.

will echo what others have said about peddling efficiency: the ibis ripmo didn’t bother me at all in the pedals. except it is more bike than I want, and feels pretty heavy.

I really think 95% of riders would have more fun on a hardtail.


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## shwndh (Nov 20, 2004)

At 61 you owe it to yourself to get an efficient short travel full suspension. It will rock your world! 🤣
You don’t have to get rid of your hard tail but when you take that new bike on a 30 mile ride and you don’t feel beat up and fatigued, you’ll see the light.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm in Utah and will turn 70 this summer. I tend to climb in conditions that would require me to be out of the saddle a lot if I was on a hard tail and that would result in really spiking my heart rate. I'm often hovering close to 90% max on climbs so preventing that is a necessary strategy. I also spend a fair amount of time in Moab and just don't want to get rattled. So, FS for me.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

If a FS helps you go longer or feel better, it couldn't really hurt to add one to the stable. FS was just allowing and encouraging me to go faster, which wasn't going to end well, so I stopped riding them a few years back.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Schmeg said:


> Am I alone?


I doubt you're alone but at the same time, I can't imagine the group you described is very large.

At 68 and having ridden mountain bikes for the past 37 years, I've never been without a hardtail.
But I made a shift to FS in 2011 (Turner Sultan) and was blown away at how well that bike (DW Link suspension) absorbed trail chatter yet didn't bob while pedaling.
Before owning that bike, I wouldn't have believed this was possible.

I've owned 3 FS bikes since the Sultan -- all excellent climbers as well as excellent descenders.
I still enjoy riding my hardtail, too. But it wouldn't be my only bike, that's for sure.

Schmeg, you ride more than I do but that's not to say I'm a slouch -- I try to average 8-10 hrs/wk in the off season and 10+ in summer.
Despite the fact that we're on opposite ends of the country (I'm in Oregon), I guess our riding conditions aren't all that different.
I know your roots & rocks there are legendary.

If you decide to dip your toe in the water, I respectfully recommend you give it time.
At least a couple months.

Suspension systems are so good these days. I refuse to own a bike that requires a 'climb switch' or lockout.
I never -- ever -- lock my suspension out. There are plenty of great FS bikes out there that don't require you to do a thing -- they just work, both uphill and down.
In this way, you never have to remember to flip a lever at the top of the hill.
=sParty


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## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

64 and have SS platforms in FS(canfield Riot, Revel bikes uses same CBF system excellent pedaler, dead flat AS "curve"), and both Ti & steel hardtails. I'd say if you're trending towards hardtail give Ti a go the ride feel is pretty awesome. I save the Riot for stuff like southern Utah but generally the Ti even there will get the call.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

contrarian opinion: Stay with the HT to reduce osteoporosis. Use the constant pounding to strengthen your bones.

With that said, Trek pretty much killed their top trim levels of HT mountain bikes because they consider the Supercaliber their replacement for top end HT's. And "gravel bikes" are even getting suspension.


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## whatshubdoc (Oct 8, 2015)

Schmeg said:


> ...turned off by the complexity and the potential of pedaling in a pool of wet cement. I like simple, minimal, and elegant lines. I’m at the point where I believe my next major bike purchase will be a nice Ti, or steel bike with moderate geometry and A nice fork. Maybe even SS. I’ll deal with old man’s syndrome when it arrives. I’m not there yet. I’m thinking Niner SIR9, or a Canfield Nimble 9 With 27.5 wheels. I’m short and stand over is an issue for me. Speed is irrelevant. No KOM’s needed. Only fun and fitness. Am I alone?



Someone else on the thread has already mentioned, but a DW (Dave Weagle) designed linkage will eliminate the need for any kind of pedal switch. Brands include IBIS, EVIL, Devinci, Salsa, Atherton, etc. Just look for "DW Link". They pedal as well as a hardtail and I find they have even more traction going upwards. Downside is, you pay to play. The DW license ain't cheap. My two personal favorites are IBIS for climbing, and EVIL for descending. 

However, it also sounds like you appreciate craftsmanship, so a Ti hardtail might be the way to go. It'll take the edge off but not as much as a FS. I've only owned Ti road bikes (been riding road for 25 years now) but not a MTB (8 years) yet. I did own a Surly Karate Monkey steel hard tail, and rode it rigid SS most of the time. Craziest fun bike I've owned. If I didn't have lumbar surgery I would've kept it.


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## Schril (Oct 28, 2010)

Schmeg said:


> I’ve never owned or ridden a FS bike. I’m 61 years old and quite fit for age. I run 8 miles a day or ride 2 hours on my HT or fatty. I ride for enjoyment and fitness, not speed. I love climbing. I’ve been considering an FS bike because apparently us old people need smooth riding bikes as we age. There are times I relish a nicer ride. But every time I’m out riding which is nearly every day, I have a smile on my face. In my recent research on FS bikes, not on;y am I turned off by the ridiculous prices, I’m turned off by the complexity and the potential of pedaling in a pool of wet cement. I like simple, minimal, and elegant lines. I’m at the point where I believe my next major bike purchase will be a nice Ti, or steel bike with moderate geometry and A nice fork. Maybe even SS. I’ll deal with old man’s syndrome when it arrives. I’m not there yet. I’m thinking Niner SIR9, or a Canfield Nimble 9 With 27.5 wheels. I’m short and stand over is an issue for me. Speed is irrelevant. No KOM’s needed. Only fun and fitness. Am I alone?


Have you ever ridden a steel hardtail? For what you describe, I think this would be a good fit. Look into a something like a REEB ReDikyelous or a custom build by one of the many excellent builders in the US.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Not looking to start an argument here or make anybody wrong but I own a custom steel hardtail (not my first custom steel hardtail) and in my humble opinion a nice steel hardtail is NOTHING like a full suspension bike other than they both have two wheels, a saddle and a handlebar.
=sParty


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

There are many FS bikes and designs that pedal on the whole as efficiently as a HT. The little bit you give up in suspension loss is gained back through better traction and the suspension taking the bumps rather than you and the rest of the bike.

Don’t get too caught up on the linkage design (DW-Link, VPP, etc) as even within those, individual models may be tuned differently. However, I think you will find scant few short travel (120mm or less) FS bikes from reputable that are not extremely efficient.

If you have any doubts about the efficiency of FS designs, look at what top XC racers are riding on even moderately courses. Plenty of FS bikes to be found there.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Sparticus said:


> Not looking to start an argument here or make anybody wrong but I own a custom steel hardtail (not my first custom steel hardtail) and in my humble opinion a nice steel hardtail is NOTHING like a full suspension bike other than they both have two wheels, a saddle and a handlebar.
> =sParty


This^^^^


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Sparticus said:


> Not looking to start an argument here or make anybody wrong but I own a custom steel hardtail (not my first custom steel hardtail) and in my humble opinion a nice steel hardtail is NOTHING like a full suspension bike other than they both have two wheels, a saddle and a handlebar.
> =sParty


Even descending on fs bike I’m standing and feel like my legs are the majority of the suspension. Fs bikes are better when you’re sitting and pedaling on a rough trail.

On recent trip to Moab I really missed fs when climbing on casual parts of slick rock where they were so rough I simply couldn’t sit and I got pretty tired. Drops n stuff I wanted a bigger fork but still didn’t care about rear suspension.

I tried a decked out a Canfield nimble 9 and i thought it was extremely comfortable.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Sparticus said:


> Not looking to start an argument here or make anybody wrong but I own a custom steel hardtail (not my first custom steel hardtail) and in my humble opinion a nice steel hardtail is NOTHING like a full suspension bike other than they both have two wheels, a saddle and a handlebar.
> =sParty


Same here. I love both my AM FS and rigid SS. Like others have said, get both. I do not like geared HTs for some reason. But, after reading the OPs post, my gut is that a custom HT will give the most smiles. I have just as much pain on my FS where I live simply because I can attack the downs so much more aggressively so I’m still beat up 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

eri said:


> Even descending on fs bike I’m standing and feel like my legs are the majority of the suspension. Fs bikes are better when you’re sitting and pedaling on a rough trail.
> 
> On recent trip to Moab I really missed fs when climbing on casual parts of slick rock where they were so rough I simply couldn’t sit and I got pretty tired. Drops n stuff I wanted a bigger fork but still didn’t care about rear suspension.
> 
> I tried a decked out a Canfield nimble 9 and i thought it was extremely comfortable.


I didn't intend to imply that my custom steel hardtail isn't comfortable.
If it was uncomfortable, I'd sell it.
I said it's a far cry from a full suspension bike.
Which it is.

Did you intend to sound as dismissive & disagreeable as you did?
=sParty


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Sparticus said:


> I didn't intend to imply that my custom steel hardtail isn't comfortable.
> If it was uncomfortable, I'd sell it.
> I said it's a far cry from a full suspension bike.
> Which it is.
> ...


yikes im sorry! Was written pre coffee. But we might be actually disagreeing? Look we’re fellow mtbers (and ht lovers) on the internet - sorry if im a bung hole.

i honestly dont find that fs is such a huge difference in control until speeds get high. Literally not a night and day difference for me. Its primarily extra weight and comfort while seated.

tires… tires is a relatively huge difference compared to fs vs h

youre being quite emphatic that fs is such a big difference where i think it often isnt? Some fs bikes are just 100mm of tight travel where legs provide>200mm.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

eri said:


> yikes im sorry! Was written pre coffee. But we might be actually disagreeing? Look we’re fellow mtbers (and ht lovers) on the internet - sorry if im a bung hole.
> 
> i honestly dont find that fs is such a huge difference in control until speeds get high. Literally not a night and day difference for me. Its primarily extra weight and comfort while seated.
> 
> ...


Sorry. I probably misunderstood.
Think I temporarily blanked on Rule #2.
Please ignore my tantrum. This day is starting off a bit poorly at my end.
I value & appreciate your input here very much, eri. 
=sParty


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Sparticus said:


> Sorry. I probably misunderstood.
> Think I temporarily blanked on Rule #2.
> Please ignore my tantrum. This day is starting off a bit poorly at my end.
> I value & appreciate your input here very much, eri.
> =sParty


Never heard of those rules but i like em!


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Last season I added a suspension fork. And I have owned and ridden a DW*Link FS. I still like the HT better for everything I've ridden (East coast-ish).


I thought I'd posted something a little more in-depth, but here ya go...


Fleas said:


> View attachment 1224045
> 
> 
> My hardtail borders on embarrassing... not only is it more expensive than a decent FS bike, it also weighs about the same. So I'm not saving any coin or boosting my climbing efficiency. But I have given FS a fair try - I have a DW-link Iron Horse that I rode for a year (in OH, PA, GA, TN). I gave it to my wife. Yes, it has been awhile, and it was faster on the downs, and it actually climbed pretty well, but I like to feel the trail - not be completely insulated from it.
> ...


-F


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## whatshubdoc (Oct 8, 2015)

In addition, FS allows you to be a little more careless when riding. I think that's the biggest difference.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

Sparticus said:


> I doubt you're alone but at the same time, I can't imagine the group you described is very large.
> 
> At 68 and having ridden mountain bikes for the past 37 years, I've never been without a hardtail.
> But I made a shift to FS in 2011 (Turner Sultan) and was blown away at how well that bike (DW Link suspension) absorbed trail chatter yet didn't bob while pedaling.
> ...


OH GAWD... who created a thread that got some old Turner cult member started reminiscing... now were in for it...


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## frana (Jan 5, 2008)

Sparticus said:


> There are plenty of great FS bikes out there that don't require you to do a thing -- they just work, both uphill and down.
> In this way, you never have to remember to flip a lever at the top of the hill.


Don't agree. I've ridden the Ripley and while it climbs well , I still prefer my Scott spark with the remote lockout close to my fingers . Instant firmness when needed. I like DWlink but if you are sensitive to any bob in suspension , there is a difference. Comes down to preference when it comes down to it.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

frana said:


> Don't agree. I've ridden the Ripley and while it climbs well , I still prefer my Scott spark with the remote lockout close to my fingers . Instant firmness when needed. I like DWlink but if you are sensitive to any bob in suspension , there is a difference. Comes down to preference when it comes down to it.


Of course, we like what we like, but at the time when I had a DW*Link bike, a low-budget 2008 Iron Horse Hollow Point MkIII, I had come off years of rigid bikes. I was amazed at how well it pedaled. If it had had a better fork I might've kept it. Sometimes I wonder what I could've gotten with some real money. It would have greatly benefited from a better fork and wheels, but we actually still have it and it's still a really good bike. I wrote a review of it back then.

-F


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

frana said:


> Don't agree. I've ridden the Ripley and while it climbs well , I still prefer my Scott spark with the remote lockout close to my fingers . Instant firmness when needed. I like DWlink but if you are sensitive to any bob in suspension , there is a difference. Comes down to preference when it comes down to it.


The thing is, there isn't a direct correlation between suspension movement and efficiency. Some suspension movement may mean decreased efficiency, such as when your design doesn't have much anti-squat and each of your pedal strokes are compressing the shock (related to forward acceleration, but just imagine the chain trying to compress the suspension as you pedal), but suspension movement due to vertical weight shifts like your feet moving up and down wastes very little energy...yet it can still cause "visual bob". I find a much more direct relationship between pedal inputs and forward acceleration with DW link bikes. To that effect, not only the amount of AS but the shape of the curve is important. A flat curve well into the travel will mean consistent pedaling over a variety of surfaces and bumps, vs. falling-AS curves where the more your suspension works, the worse it pedals, which kind of gets you into a feed-back loop on steep rough stuff while going uphill. A lockout also helps very very little. It's important for XC racing where saving 3 seconds on a 5 mile lap is significant, but in the bigger picture, more rides should test their riding times all out uphill with and without. There is little difference. I say this as a competitive XC racer. If saving 30 seconds is important to you when climbing 2000' vertical for a descent, well then go for it. I wouldn't be without it on an XC race, because a second can easily mean a difference in placement in the top 10, but in any other type of riding, it's not necessary and it's not saving any significant time for that kind of riding. It's more a of a gimmick outside of XC racing IMO.


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## canyoneagle (Sep 27, 2007)

Lifelong hardtail rider, now 55. Until recently, I rode a fully rigid titanium Vassago Mooseknuckle with 29x3.0 tires on Jones carbon hoops, with XTR 12 speed. It was a phenominal bike, and I ride alot of varied terrain. I started riding mountain bikes in the mid 80's, and that has formed my riding style and preferences. I just built up a Priority 600x, a hardtail with 110mm Wren inverted fork and Pinion 12 speed gearbox integrated into the bottom bracket area. I built it with 29x2.8 tires, and look forward to experiencing the Pinion gear system.
I know there are some awesome suspension designs out there, and highly considered getting a Spot Ryve 120, but I'm a huge fan of internal gearing systems and wanted to give the Pinion a go.

For me, I prefer the feel of a good hardtail, and have grown to love the plus tires, with 2.6-2.8 being my size of choice. I never feel like I'm being beat up, but I have always had hardtails (except a Klein Adept Pro many years ago - great bike) and the style of riding they excel at. I'm not a double diamond gravity rider, and am content taking a little more time picking my line through chunk and technical sections.

There is no one answer - hell - get the Ryve and let me know what you think


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

There is not a big difference in speed between my Honzo ESD and my 2022 Transition Patrol. On smooth trails, I’m faster on the hardtail, and not many people can match my speed (have several KOMs on the ESD, that have not been beat by folks on enduro bikes — and I can’t beat those times either on _my_ enduro bike.)

Conditions have to be pretty heinous for me to be significantly faster on the Patrol — and even then it’s not as much as you’d think; I’m just a lot more composed and comfortable on the fully.

The only conditions where I strongly prefer the fully is on high-speed descents that have hundreds of square-edge hits (trails that are entirely root gardens), yet not so technical that they would be considered slow-tech. On the double-black, stupid-steep trails I ride, the hardtail does fine, because they’re not high speed trails.

As some have said, your arms and legs are meant to be used. I think a lot of people who start out on suspension don’t ever have to learn this. I use my arms and legs A LOT to absorb the trail, and on my full-suspension bikes too.

FWIW, my ESD has 160mm up front, and a 62.5 degree HA. 2.6” Minions and Cushcore, with 200mm rotors. Not really fair to compare it to most other hardtails…🤣


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

cookieMonster said:


> There is not a big difference in speed between my Honzo ESD and my 2022 Transition Patrol. On smooth trails, I’m faster on the hardtail, and not many people can match my speed (have several KOMs on the ESD, that have not been beat by folks on enduro bikes — and I can’t beat those times either on _my_ enduro bike.)
> 
> Conditions have to be pretty heinous for me to be significantly faster on the Patrol — and even then it’s not as much as you’d think; I’m just a lot more composed and comfortable on the fully.
> 
> ...


You pretty much described my hardtail, too CM.
Well, mine lacks CushCore.
Anyway very capable bikes, eh.
Let's go riding. 
=sParty


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## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

cookieMonster said:


> There is not a big difference in speed between my Honzo ESD and my 2022 Transition Patrol. On smooth trails, I’m faster on the hardtail, and not many people can match my speed (have several KOMs on the ESD, that have not been beat by folks on enduro bikes — and I can’t beat those times either on _my_ enduro bike.)
> 
> Conditions have to be pretty heinous for me to be significantly faster on the Patrol — and even then it’s not as much as you’d think; I’m just a lot more composed and comfortable on the fully.
> 
> ...


That’s one rowdy bike!


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Schmeg said:


> I’ve never owned or ridden a FS bike. I’m 61 years old and quite fit for age. I run 8 miles a day or ride 2 hours on my HT or fatty. I ride for enjoyment and fitness, not speed. I love climbing. I’ve been considering an FS bike because apparently us old people need smooth riding bikes as we age. There are times I relish a nicer ride. But every time I’m out riding which is nearly every day, I have a smile on my face. In my recent research on FS bikes, not on;y am I turned off by the ridiculous prices, I’m turned off by the complexity and the potential of pedaling in a pool of wet cement. I like simple, minimal, and elegant lines. I’m at the point where I believe my next major bike purchase will be a nice Ti, or steel bike with moderate geometry and A nice fork. Maybe even SS. I’ll deal with old man’s syndrome when it arrives. I’m not there yet. I’m thinking Niner SIR9, or a Canfield Nimble 9 With 27.5 wheels. I’m short and stand over is an issue for me. Speed is irrelevant. No KOM’s needed. Only fun and fitness. Am I alone?


I use my FS at the bike park ... 99.9% of everything else I ride, a HT is not only capable, but IMO a lot more fun to ride. I ride mostly intermediate trails, flowy with smaller jumps and carry a lot of speed. Really want to get a SS but I kinda want an ebike and/or a DJ, so in a holding pattern while I decide. Plus I don't have the cash to burn at the moment. 

But yeah, I'll always be a HT advocate and they'll always be my favorite kinda bike. I have the most fun on my HT.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Schmeg said:


> I’ve never owned or ridden a FS bike. I’m 61 years old and quite fit for age. I run 8 miles a day or ride 2 hours on my HT or fatty. I ride for enjoyment and fitness, not speed. I love climbing. I’ve been considering an FS bike because apparently us old people need smooth riding bikes as we age. There are times I relish a nicer ride. But every time I’m out riding which is nearly every day, I have a smile on my face. In my recent research on FS bikes, not on;y am I turned off by the ridiculous prices, I’m turned off by the complexity and the potential of pedaling in a pool of wet cement. I like simple, minimal, and elegant lines. I’m at the point where I believe my next major bike purchase will be a nice Ti, or steel bike with moderate geometry and A nice fork. Maybe even SS. I’ll deal with old man’s syndrome when it arrives. I’m not there yet. I’m thinking Niner SIR9, or a Canfield Nimble 9 With 27.5 wheels. I’m short and stand over is an issue for me. Speed is irrelevant. No KOM’s needed. Only fun and fitness. Am I alone?


BTW props to you for staying fit. I'm 40 but feels like yesterday I was 20, so I know 60 isn't far away ... My Dad is 81 and is still very active. Said he went to the gym 19 of the past 20 days, and I just found out he somehow power washed his 3800 sq ft home and composite deck ... Here's the kicker though ... I own a pressure washing company. I have multiple trucks and crews, and planned on doing it on Father's Day like I usually do. He said he didn't want me making a special trip, and when I did he'd rather I spend time with the family instead of working (he's about 2 hours away) ... But we're talking 16 ft trailers, 6 hose reels, 2 8gpm machines on each, so I could've had it done in 2 hours, probably less. 

81, God bless him, and you too for staying active. Very motivating and always uplifting to see guys like you.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Schmeg said:


> Am I alone?


I've got 2 shreddy trail hardtails [SS & geared] and a FS bike I love. The FS bike mostly gathers dust these days and I grab the HTs pretty much every ride. i'm 53 if that matters. So if you are enjoying riding your HT there is no need to get a FS bike or worry about the differences. MTBing is about having fun on the trail. If that's happening you are golden.

All that said I moved to a new town and some of the young guns I ride with want to smash out some of the harder/faster trails so I'll probably dust off the FS bike and ride it for a bit this summer. As much as I love riding a hardtail having some monkey motion is nice on steep/fast/chunky trails.


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## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

Schril said:


> Have you ever ridden a steel hardtail? For what you describe, I think this would be a good fit. Look into a something like a REEB ReDikyelous or a custom build by one of the many excellent builders in the US.


The Niner SIR9 and Canfield Nimble 9 are on my short list. I currently ride a Growler FB with a Mastadon Suspension fork. It goes well on the dirt trails but way overkill with traction. It’s an alumin bike.


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## louguy77 (Jan 9, 2008)

I started mounting biking in my mid 20s and I have have ever owned was FS. I went thru many builds from 100mm to 160mm. Just got tired of it all after awhile (mainly spending $$ to keep up with the trends). Sold them all off built a 26in HT. I got out of MTBR for a while due to having kids and raising a family. Now I am in my 40s and back in the game again. Just got myself a Niner SIR9 and built it up as a 29er. I was able to salvage my old Kings hubs and built a nice set of wheels. Holy smokes! It rides great. I take it on some of the old trails I use to ride on my FS and don't really miss my FS. I like simple now. Can't go as fast and blast thur things I use to on my FS, but I'm not in my 20s anymore and have family to look after.


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## Mk3Rider (Dec 7, 2008)

@louguy77 you are all grown up now!

I haven't even put sealant in the tires of my FS bike this year. Not sure I am even going to. I have 3 hard tails to choose from and my CX bike. I have my Niner SIR9 built up with carbon 27.5 x i30's on DT240's with maxxis 27.5 x 2.8 tires and love it! This is the best combo for a do all bike I have ever ridden.


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## Danhikeski (Jun 30, 2021)

3 years ago I bought a HT, I thoroughly enjoyed it but thought that a FS was the way to go with my local, NE, rocky, rooty tech. I got a FS last fall, then a SS this winter. I can only imagine how much faster 29er would be, or even 27.5.

I think if I had to have one bike, it would be my SS, even though it’s a (14 year old, just built) surly 1x1.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Schmeg said:


> I’ve never owned or ridden a FS bike. I’m 61 years old and quite fit for age. I run 8 miles a day or ride 2 hours on my HT or fatty. I ride for enjoyment and fitness, not speed. I love climbing. I’ve been considering an FS bike because apparently us old people need smooth riding bikes as we age. There are times I relish a nicer ride. But every time I’m out riding which is nearly every day, I have a smile on my face. In my recent research on FS bikes, not on;y am I turned off by the ridiculous prices, I’m turned off by the complexity and the potential of pedaling in a pool of wet cement. I like simple, minimal, and elegant lines. I’m at the point where I believe my next major bike purchase will be a nice Ti, or steel bike with moderate geometry and A nice fork. Maybe even SS. I’ll deal with old man’s syndrome when it arrives. I’m not there yet. I’m thinking Niner SIR9, or a Canfield Nimble 9 With 27.5 wheels. I’m short and stand over is an issue for me. Speed is irrelevant. No KOM’s needed. Only fun and fitness. Am I alone?


No you are not alone, though I'm not in attendance.

Whatever floats your boat, its all good. And your back account is all the fatter for it.

One suggestion: If you are not ready to drop the $ on a FS bike, don't try one out.

I demoed a Nimble 9 in Fruita. I liked it, but I did not really see the point of a HT with that much front travel.


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## King of Pentacles (10 mo ago)

I’m 51 and ride a Fezzari Wasatch Peak HT, which I purchased recently. But before I did, I went to a bunch of bike stores and looked at both HT’s and FS’s. The price for a FS model that I’d be happy with was over 2x the price of a HT that I’d be happy with. So I opted for the HT from Fezzari and upgraded it to SRAM GX Eagle, G2-RSC brakes and a few other items. All spent…still less than the FS with crappier components.

I love my HT and don’t have any plans to buy a FS bike. I don’t really need it for my riding anyway. I’m a pedal up the access road to get to the intermediate trails kind of rider. Most of my rides are <1 hour. I can do all that on my HT.

I’m actually in love with my bike. We’re getting married soon after i divorce my wife. I even bought her a custom stem cap! 👍🏻


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

kapusta said:


> No you are not alone, though I'm not in attendance.
> 
> Whatever floats your boat, its all good. And your back account is all the fatter for it.
> 
> ...


I’m fortunate because I demo bikes and am always relieved to get back on my singlespeed. I have zero want even before I consider the bushing maintainance. Yeti, pivot, ibis, orbea, specialized, $7k, $8k, $10k and still they don’t light me up. Meh. Steals the trail from me.

I tried a pimped out geared 140 nimble nine and thought it was pretty great. There was some want. If my 140 raijin was stolen I’d consider it.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

cookieMonster said:


> FWIW, my ESD has 160mm up front, and a 62.5 degree HA. 2.6” Minions and Cushcore, with 200mm rotors. Not really fair to compare it to most other hardtails…🤣


Nope, not really fair. It'd be much slower up the smoother climbs 
My hardtail (short track xc) is 180 (rotor ) up front, 72° HTA, 42mm Ramblers and weighs about 20lbs.
But my main ride is a FS.


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

Mid/later 50's here, body's had a pretty hard life -been run over twice by utes/4WD's with broken feet, busted hip, wrecked knee, bulged discs in my back and other things being the result of that. Still ride a HT. Ally frame too -based off around a 2015 27.5" Vitus Sentier frame. I think. Not into racing, not into bike parks, just giving it the gas on some pretty rough & technical trails a lot of the time. And a few jumps here & there. Trails rough enough that other riders a lot younger than me look and comment "you rode up here on a HT?" And yet I thought nothing of it. I'm not exceptionally tough, or fit or anything. Would I be faster on a FS bike? Probably? Would it be easier? Probably. Would it be more fun? Not on your life. People are just getting soft. IMO


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

I always get very confused when everyone assumes a full suspension bike is primarily for comfort. That is on the list of things it can do, but not the point. I have mine set at the minimum sag percentages front and rear. This keeps it poppy and pretty darn efficient, without giving up the amazing traction it provides. I can go faster because of that in many areas. 

That said, my steel plus hardtail rides all the same places and kicks butt too. I will never be without both. Full disclosure, I do not mind one bit being able to stay seated though some flat chunky sections on the fully. That is definitely a comfort thing, but also translates to speed. I am only 4 months into owning a full suspension bike after a long time living the hardtail only life, so I do have a ton to learn. 

It is a non trivial expense but I would recommend adding a fully, not replacing a hardtail. Of course like most of us here I also have a dirt jumper, and a gravel bike, and some frames and wheels in the basement from days gone by. N+1 until there is no more storage...


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

When I mention comfort.. I generally mean being less physically beaten up, compared to riding an aggressive hardtail on the same trails. HUGE thing at times. 

You're right about the speed though.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

Agreed @dysfunction, apologies I was vague on which "comfort" sentiment I was addressing. It was more towards the hyperbolic "a full suspension bike is like riding a sofa down the trails, don't be a wimp and get a full suspension bike" comfort statements. There are a ton of folks who want a fully for those reasons as well. I suppose a bike could be set up like a "sofa", but that would be misusing the tool of suspension. It's not invalid as you should ride how and what you want to ride and neither I nor anyone else has the final say over what mountain biking means to anyone else. 

That said, it just seems like point of suspension, both front and rear, is a bit misunderstood. It may be to make the trail "easier" or "more comfortable", but that should be viewed as a tool as well to allow for longer days, more traction over bumps and through turns, potential faster speeds through sections of trail (if that is your goal), or just more fun. 

Now, I equally don't understand people who think hardtails are un-ridable. Even in my featureless flat area people still think you need a full suspension bike as the trails are "bumpy". It seems there are a large percentage of people who think mountain biking is road biking with knobby tires and they should not have to make any body movements beyond pedaling and steering.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

To the OP:

An FS will ride smoother and climb better than a hardtail, allowing you to ride further and longer.

I switch back and forth from a hardtail and FS, knowing that a hardtail ride will work me more and beat me up more, I usually reserve the hardtail for softer soils and lower tech.

I’m nursing a sore ankle from a hardtail ride I took a few weeks back, took some big drops and landed just a little too hard. If I’d been on my FS bike I wouldn’t have a sore ankle.

If you’re riding easier terrain and you don’t spend much time in the air, a hardtail makes perfect sense.

On a side note, at 61 yo you might want to start backing off on running and take some recovery days, being fit doesn’t change the reality of having older joints and less elastic tissues.

All this aside, I’m and old guy too and I think life is too short to ride just one bike, so I’ve ridden unicycles, Pinion, tandems, hardtail, FS.

If you have the means, I’d recommend something like a Ripley.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I hurt my ankle on a VP Free (203mm of rear travel). Took a medium sized drop and didn't position my feet correctly. 

I have a pretty simple rule for hardtails.

Don't huck to flat.

I sold all my FS bikes a couple years ago because I kept reaching for a hardtail. If you haven't ridden a good hardtail, then my vote is do that.


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## Chris Pringle (Oct 28, 2003)

Schmeg said:


> The Niner SIR9 and Canfield Nimble 9 are on my short list. I currently ride a Growler FB with a Mastadon Suspension fork. It goes well on the dirt trails but way overkill with traction. It’s an alumin bike.


Just curious to know if you made a decision on your new rig or are you still debating on what to get?


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## frana (Jan 5, 2008)

Jayem said:


> It's more a of a gimmick outside of XC racing IMO.


I don't race, I go by my subjective experience when climbing, the ability to open the suspension on more techy climbing vs smoother parts of the trail feels better for me....IMO.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

With modern rear suspension designs, I find little need or want for a rear lockout. Heck that has been true for over 15 years.

Front fork is a different story. If there were good options for lockouts or really firm climbing modes with a remote switch that does not in any way effect “unlocked” performance, I would be definitely be interested. I really notice the monkey motion on my 140-160mm forks when standing and hammering.


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