# Anyone else interested in less power and shorter battery life in return for a .....



## howardv (Nov 11, 2016)

The e-bike industry is advancing and bikes are getting more powerful with longer battery life. That's good for some, but personally, I'd rather have less power and a shorter battery life in exchange for a much lighter bike.

When riding my e-bike, I go for 40+ mile rides. When I return, I still have about 40% battery remaining. I have a Haibike Full 9 with a Yamaha motor. On flats and downhill, I turn off the motor. On uphills, I usually use eco mode to get a good workout. I may use the standard mode on some short tough climbs, but that's it. I don't need more power either, I think my e-bike has more power than I'll ever need. I almost never use the high power setting.

Am I the only one who would give up some power and battery life in exchange for a lighter bike? I would be very interested in future models that are much lighter than whats available now.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Tried coffee and bacon on a regular mt bike?


----------



## howardv (Nov 11, 2016)

leeboh said:


> Tried coffee and bacon on a regular mt bike?


Heh! Two months ago, I sold my 8 year old Yeti ASR5 and got a new 2018 Cannondale Scalpel SI. I ride both a regular and e-mtb. Love 'em both!

Unlike most, I ride from my home to the trails. You eventually get tired of the same trails. An e-mtb allows you to finally go much further and rescues from the boredom of the same old trails.

I really don't want to shuttle my bike in my car in Los Angeles traffic at 5:30 pm.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I think the evolution so far has been mostly the other way (the new Specialized has a HUGE battery from what I've heard) with e-bike specific beefier/heavier parts and more power. 

I tend to think there would be a market for a 100w assist bike with minimal battery (that type of bike would be a lot easier to get access to trails for, too), but only time will tell. 

-Walt


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

My focus has less battery and is lighter. It’s a 29er. It handles pretty awesome!


----------



## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

The new light ebike sounds like it would fit you. There's two that I know of, from Lapierre and Bulls. Iirc they are around 38lbs, 250w motors, etc. At a quick glance it's not obvious they are ebikes. I like that, except for their costs. They need to get these lighter bikes down into an affordable range.

















https://ebike-mtb.com/en/lapierre-e-zesty-am/


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Nice bikes. Do they list the actual weight anywhere? 38# on a dually seems awful light. I’m at 46# carboned out. 376w battery and aluminum frame. I’m guessing real world like 42-43# size medium. They are expensive though, ouch!


----------



## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

howardv said:


> When riding my e-bike, I go for 40+ mile rides. When I return, I still have about 40% battery remaining. I have a Haibike Full 9 with a Yamaha motor. On flats and downhill, I turn off the motor. On uphills, I usually use eco mode to get a good workout. I may use the standard mode on some short tough climbs, but that's it. I don't need more power either, I think my e-bike has more power than I'll ever need. I almost never use the high power setting.
> 
> Am I the only one who would give up some power and battery life in exchange for a lighter bike? I would be very interested in future models that are much lighter than whats available now.


To each their own, but it sounds to me as if you are just better off having an analog style mtb. A very expensive way to just get in a good workout though, imo.

If one wants to use low power exclusively as you do, the Eco+ and Eco motor power settings fit the bill just right. Lighter bikes can come easily enough via carbon fiber replacement parts on that Haibike of yours. All at a great price, either way.

Myself, Haibike Full FatSix (Yamaha PW drive system); pushing 5600 miles on the odometer in over a year and a half of ownership. Typical rides around home are 20 mile runs in High or Standard power. Long mileage runs a mixture of various power levels in order to mind the battery power levels. Pushing 60 pounds with racks and bags, cause as George Carlin put it, I need room for my "stuff"!


----------



## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

I think they are coming in the mtb world, and already (almost) here in the road world in the form of the Orbea Gain and Focus Paralane 2, both of which weigh ~25 pounds.

Patience, I guess!


----------



## ironhippy (Nov 21, 2017)

howardv said:


> Unlike most, I ride from my home to the trails. You eventually get tired of the same trails. An e-mtb allows you to finally go much further and rescues from the boredom of the same old trails.


Won't the exact same thing happen with the ebike? 
What happens once you've ridden all the trails on your ebike?


----------



## howardv (Nov 11, 2016)

Walt said:


> I tend to think there would be a market for a 100w assist bike with minimal battery (that type of bike would be a lot easier to get access to trails for, too), but only time will tell.
> 
> -Walt


That's exactly what I'm hoping for. Although I'm confident that I'm in the minority.



thesmokingman said:


> The new light ebike sounds like it would fit you. There's two that I know of, from Lapierre and Bulls. Iirc they are around 38lbs, 250w motors, etc. At a quick glance it's not obvious they are ebikes. I like that, except for their costs. They need to get these lighter bikes down into an affordable range.


Under 40lbs is awesome! Haven't seen the Lapierre in the U.S. though (at least not near me).



MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> To each their own, but it sounds to me as if you are just better off having an analog style mtb. A very expensive way to just get in a good workout though, imo.
> 
> If one wants to use low power exclusively as you do, the Eco+ and Eco motor power settings fit the bill just right. Lighter bikes can come easily enough via carbon fiber replacement parts on that Haibike of yours. All at a great price, either way.


I ride an analog mtb too (2018 Cannondale Scalpel). I just get bored of the same trails. A little power to help with the uphills can go a long way.



kosmo said:


> I think they are coming in the mtb world, and already (almost) here in the road world in the form of the Orbea Gain and Focus Paralane 2, both of which weigh ~25 pounds.
> 
> Patience, I guess!


Very impressive! Hadn't followed the road e-bikes. Those look sweet!



ironhippy said:


> Won't the exact same thing happen with the ebike?
> What happens once you've ridden all the trails on your ebike?


So far I haven't gotten bored yet. The e-bike has really expanded my riding territory. Here is a map of when I ride my regular analog bike which takes about 2-hours round trip:

https://i.imgur.com/MbTJwBg.jpg

Here is a map of my e-bike ride, which takes about 2-1/2 to 3 hours:

https://i.imgur.com/A4b2prJ.jpg

Of course, there are a lot of different trails connecting the Santa Monica mountains, so I haven't gotten bored yet. But who knows, that time may come! It's always nice to have a larger area.


----------



## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

howardv said:


> Under 40lbs is awesome! Haven't seen the Lapierre in the U.S. though (at least not near me).


Lapierre is coming back to the US from what I read... That eZesty is slated for Jan 2019. The Bulls Wild Flow Evo might be more attainable in the US. Gah, look at that sticker shock!









Nice intro on the Lapierre with Nico.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

They need to make the e road bikes a class3 and cut out at 28 like my Turbo S. Then I’d probably upgrade. They are fun to ride and explore for sure.


----------



## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

howardv said:


> Very impressive! Hadn't followed the road e-bikes. Those look sweet!


My wife has an Orbea Gain M20i coming. Possibly the first one to the USA! We've hit what I guess you'd call semi-retirement, and want to ride together more again.

Over the past 15 years our paces have become pretty disparate, so this should be fun.

The Bulls and LaPierre that smokingman mentions above use the same Fazua integrated battery/motor system that the Focus Paralane 2 road bike uses.


----------



## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

My wife is 115# and have tested both a Levo and Powerfly. On both bikes, she felt Eco mode was more than enough except for the steepest sections. And had plenty of power left after 20 miles which is plenty distance for her.

Obviously Watts/KG is big factor here and if the e-Bike is carrying 250# dude, then his mileage will definitely vary and suck a lot worse.

But yes - weight of ebike is also her biggest complaint.


----------



## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

Also - I think smaller mod kits (less assist and battery) would be interesting to retrofit more bike frames.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

ironhippy said:


> Won't the exact same thing happen with the ebike?
> What happens once you've ridden all the trails on your ebike?


It's not just about trails. It's about remote fire and gravel roads that go over the hills and far, far away. It's kind of a version of bikepacking but you are doing the whole thing in one day, you can do an epic ride almost anywhere in 2-4 hours instead of the whole day. Explore further in less time. I rarely ride 'real' trails on my e-bike, because for me it's for exploring and the trails only go so far, the fire roads go much further.

As for less power and longer battery life, I'm fine with a 13.5 Ah battery, but I wish the bike weighed less than 56 lbs. Less weight would be much preferred over less power/longer battery life. As in less weight, less power, same or slightly less battery life. Because if you have less weight, and just did pedal assist levels 1 and 2, you'll have plenty of range anyway. I'd love a 40 lb e-bike, but that's going to take some saving.


----------



## heythorp (Aug 12, 2005)

howardv said:


> Am I the only one who would give up some power and battery life in exchange for a lighter bike? I would be very interested in future models that are much lighter than whats available now.


NO. This was my first thought when I road one for 5 mintues. eco mode is so amazing the others are worthless to me. I'd like to see eco be 50% of what it is normal be eco mode and turbo be 150% of eco.

Half the battery would be fine.

xc ebike would be really fun.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> It's not just about trails. It's about remote fire and gravel roads that go over the hills and far, far away. It's kind of a version of bikepacking but you are doing the whole thing in one day, you can do an epic ride almost anywhere in 2-4 hours instead of the whole day. Explore further in less time. I rarely ride 'real' trails on my e-bike, because for me it's for exploring and the trails only go so far, the fire roads go much further.


Aren't you always making fun of gravel riding in one of the other forums?


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Aren't you always making fun of gravel riding in one of the other forums?


No you are not understanding, young Jedi (sorry, I mean old Jedi).

I don't make fun of gravel riding. I ride on gravel, but not by choice. I don't consider it much different than a dirt fire road. There are a lot of times when the majority of what I'm riding is pavement, gravel, or fire road, and actual trails are only 0-20% of the total loop. If I analyzed my total miles so far one day (maybe 5000 so far), I may very well have ridden as much on gravel as on a real trail. So I'm not making fun of that at all, you need to read between the lines.

I'm making fun of the term gravel bike, because it's just a very clever marketing term that turns a boring hybrid bike name into something more defined. It's not the bikes that I make fun of. I don't mind them at all. They are fine. It's nice to have a bike to get off the pavement and do gravel/fire roads, or maybe some hardpack easy trails. That's cool. It's the marketing of the term GRAVEL that I make fun of. There is a difference. Mechanics tend to take things literally. You have to understand things figuratively sometimes in order to correctly perceive certain writings from others. So don't worry, I'm not out to ban gravel bikes, that's silly. I do however wonder why there is a gravel bike forum on here, and no hardtail or trail bike forum. Those bikes between XC and AM are completely neglected on here, and they should not be, especially if a non-MTB has it's own forum.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> It's not just about trails. It's about remote fire and gravel roads that go over the hills and far, far away. It's kind of a version of bikepacking but you are doing the whole thing in one day, you can do an epic ride almost anywhere in 2-4 hours instead of the whole day. Explore further in less time. I rarely ride 'real' trails on my e-bike, because for me it's for exploring and the trails only go so far, the fire roads go much further.


You're a confusing fellow Rich.



richj8990 said:


> I don't make fun of gravel riding. I ride on gravel, but not by choice.


No need to backpedal, you've got dozens of posts in the gravel forum like this-



> Can someone please explain exactly how riding on gravel is fun? Seriously. Please explain. Because I consider it about as fun as picking out the last bits of cheese on a day-old cardboard pizza box.


----------



## gumba (Dec 18, 2016)

Using the 750w BBS02 and the 3 lb. 6ah mighty mini battery would give you about a 13lb package. I thought the 02 motor was 10 lbs, but read it was about 8.5 lbs. 
I converted a few of our bikes starting in 2015 and went with the 1000w BBSHD instead of the 02 because at that time it was a better motor. With the mighty mini battery that's around a 16 lb packge. Today I'd opt for the 02. 
We have our power settings pretty low at pas1 4%, pas2 8%, pas3 12% etc. Using mainly pas1, and occasionally pas 2 on the hills and no assist on the flats we get 40 + miles per charge. 
I like the diy kit because I can swap it between bikes and take the motor off when I just want to ride it as a regular bike. On my Lightspeed Unicou at 21 lbs adding the BBSHD puts the weight at just under 40 lbs. On my Intense Uzzi at 27 lbs puts me at 43 lbs. Dropping 3+ lbs using the BBS02 would put me in the sub 40lb range. My wife's '05 Santa Cruz Superlight weighs 25 lbs and adding a 02 would put that bike in the 38 lb. range. You could always go lighter with lighter components.


----------



## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

gumba said:


> Using the 750w BBS02 and the 3 lb. 6ah mighty mini battery would give you about a 13lb package. I thought the 02 motor was 10 lbs, but read it was about 8.5 lbs.
> I converted a few of our bikes starting in 2015 and went with the 1000w BBSHD instead of the 02 because at that time it was a better motor. With the mighty mini battery that's around a 16 lb packge. Today I'd opt for the 02.
> We have our power settings pretty low at pas1 4%, pas2 8%, pas3 12% etc. Using mainly pas1, and occasionally pas 2 on the hills and no assist on the flats we get 40 + miles per charge.
> I like the diy kit because I can swap it between bikes and take the motor off when I just want to ride it as a regular bike. On my Lightspeed Unicou at 21 lbs adding the BBSHD puts the weight at just under 40 lbs. On my Intense Uzzi at 27 lbs puts me at 43 lbs. Dropping 3+ lbs using the BBS02 would put me in the sub 40lb range. My wife's '05 Santa Cruz Superlight weighs 25 lbs and adding a 02 would put that bike in the 38 lb. range. You could always go lighter with lighter components.


EXACTLY? Is there a smaller conversion kit motor than the BBS02? Really for my wife 150W and 300Wh is all she needs. Maybe something like that would only add 10lbs system weight?


----------



## BillyBicycle (Jul 4, 2016)

I don't e-mtb, but I'm making one of my commuting e-bikes into a weight weenie, just as two of my naturally aspirated mountain bikes are light. The transformation includes a fender delete, tubeless setup, carbon fiber bits, eggbeaters, and the smallest battery available in that line. I love that bike (and all my bikes).


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

We were at Interbike and talked with a few mfgs of e-bikes, all of whom said the trend was stronger motors and "denser" batteries, but that weight would not really be going down anytime soon.

Strangely, Pivot already has a lighter weight and high powered bike, so it is doable. I suspect the major mfgs are just taking the middle road so they can sell more product.

At just under 40# the E-Zesty looks pretty good. That will probably be the direction we take when upgrading the Levo FSR vs getting the Shuttle.



thesmokingman said:


> The new light ebike sounds like it would fit you. There's two that I know of, from Lapierre and Bulls. Iirc they are around 38lbs, 250w motors, etc. At a quick glance it's not obvious they are ebikes. I like that, except for their costs. They need to get these lighter bikes down into an affordable range.
> 
> View attachment 1215248
> 
> ...


----------



## gumba (Dec 18, 2016)

Here's a shot of my Lightspeed Unicoi with the BBSHD (way overkill, but what I had). I made an aluminum battery box that attaches to the cage mount. Just under 40 lbs. Less 3-4.5 lbs for the 02 motor, and replace the front shock with a rigid carbon, say another -1 1.5 lbs. your now down into the 35 lb. range. My wheels are tubeless Mavic Crossmax w/Verdestein tires. So could shed more weight there.


----------



## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

that is really cool

my regular $5kcdn non-e mtn bike is 36 lbs. Lifting my other bike (eMTB) into the pickup is putting my back out, lol (48 lbs)


----------



## gumba (Dec 18, 2016)

My Intense Uzzi (‘96) with no real light weight componenets, bbshd & mighty mini battery is 44 lbs. 
A few years back I bought a Diamondback Catch2 and widened the rear triangle to fit a fat tire. With a Manitou Magnum27.5+fork and 4.0 Jumbo Jim tires weighs in at 52 lbs.


----------



## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> We were at Interbike and talked with a few mfgs of e-bikes, all of whom said the trend was stronger motors and "denser" batteries, but that weight would not really be going down anytime soon.
> 
> Strangely, Pivot already has a lighter weight and high powered bike, so it is doable. I suspect the major mfgs are just taking the middle road so they can sell more product.
> 
> At just under 40# the E-Zesty looks pretty good. That will probably be the direction we take when upgrading the Levo FSR vs getting the Shuttle.


I was the Northstar for the freeride event and was encouraged to see all the ebike options. Got distracted from all the fun riding that I didn't get a chance to demo any ebikes.

That said the market is still nascent and as we attract more riders (some out of shape), ensuring an ebike can carry a 250lb rider is probably their priority.

However as it goes, I'll like to see more options and women specific designs. 250W is OVERKILL for anyone weighing less than 120lbs. I can tell you a 100lb woman does not want to luge around a 50lb bike.


----------



## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

On top of the premium for the lighter ebikes, the 25% tariff on ebikes will hurt too. Fyi, on my french Lapierre carbon all mtn bike, the frame is made in china lol. Its something to keep in mind.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

thesmokingman said:


> On top of the premium for the lighter ebikes, the 25% tariff on ebikes will hurt too. Fyi, on my french Lapierre carbon all mtn bike, the frame is made in china lol. Its something to keep in mind.


A very large percentage of "European" bikes are now made in China, at least the frames are made in China. You wonder how that will work.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

If it's that hard to lift, can't you just remove the battery and lift them separately?


----------



## BillyBicycle (Jul 4, 2016)

For my Stromer ST2s "weight weenie" bike

I've already 
- purple battery from a ST1x, 684 Whr, the smallest in this line of bikes.
- removed the front fender
- carbon fiber seatpost
- carbon fiber seat
- carbon fiber handlebar
- kickstand delete
- eggbeater pedals
- lighter weight silicone grips
- remove rear fender and relocate the rear light to under the seat - 75% complete
- swap out the Supernova Pure 99 pro front light with a smaller front light from ST1x - later
- tubless setup - next spring
- lowest rolling resistance tires - next spring
- XTR single speed crank - next spring

The bike is quite a bit lighter than my other commuting ST2s that I left stock. When I'm out riding with the GF, I can easily ride even the stock bike with the battery off and keep up with her. Boost level 1 of three, I can do 20 on the stock bike. I don't imagine the weight weenie will be faster due to the laws of physics, but physics says it will accelerate faster OR use less battery power for the same acceleration as a stock weight bike. The minimalist bike is 52.3 lbs in the current state of transformation, and I haven't weighed the stock bike yet, but it's supposed to be 60#.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Yup, absolutely.

Less power and less range is not awesome but it will come with less weight and less bulk. I'm interested and I think quite a few will be too when the possibilities are explored.

An FS ebike at 32 lbs? That's the only way it's gonna happen for now. Just a little 100 watt boost but the bike will be as light as normal bikes.

What's more likely to happen is modular batteries. 250Wh, 500Wh, stack em up batteries for more range and weight.


----------



## howardv (Nov 11, 2016)

fc said:


> Yup, absolutely.
> 
> Less power and less range is not awesome but it will come with less weight and less bulk. I'm interested and I think quite a few will be too when the possibilities are explored.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I mean! It's not for everyone. We all want something different. Just throwing out that there may be a market for less.

On my local trails, there is this one hill. I can climb it on cool days, but on hot days, I may need to stop 2-3 times for brief breaks. I just need a motor strong enough to make it a bit easier.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't think you'll have to choose, at least not in the near future. Range is improving and weight is going down without sacrificing power. I think this will be a continuing trend.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fc said:


> Just a little 100 watt boost but the bike will be as light as normal bikes.


Unless the motor and battery weigh nothing, they'll never weigh the same as a bike.

Walk assist is 100w, no one wants just 100w, they'll want 200-250, but only on demand, so smaller, modular batteries seem like a no brainer.

Lightweight and lower powered will definitely have a market, just like lightweight XC bikes are still around. And certainly on the road side, I can see it being more significant there.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> We were at Interbike and talked with a few mfgs of e-bikes, all of whom said the trend was stronger motors and "denser" batteries, but that weight would not really be going down anytime soon.
> 
> Strangely, Pivot already has a lighter weight and high powered bike, so it is doable. I suspect the major mfgs are just taking the middle road so they can sell more product.
> 
> At just under 40# the E-Zesty looks pretty good. That will probably be the direction we take when upgrading the Levo FSR vs getting the Shuttle.


How does this bike weigh 38#?? And have a 250w motor. I call BS. No dropper, XC tires, tiny rotors etc. The bike needs some beef or it would tweak out under stress. I can't see any ebike 8# lighter than my Focus with 378w battery, Carbon wheels etc. Where is the 8# weight difference coming from? I can see a pound for Carbon frame, but what else? People say, "why worry about weight on an emtb" it's obviously handling reasons.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

And why would it be BS? It's listed in their specs, no more or less BS than any other mfgs posted specs. You can easily get the same bike without a motor down to thirty pounds, so and additional eight pounds for battery and motor is perfectly reasonable.

Ebikes that are not designed as high powered throttled motorcycles do not need to be any beefier than a non ebike. All the advertising suggesting beefy wheels and forks are needed on ebikes is nonsense. Ten pounds of bike doesn't necessitate any more strength than ten pounds of arse.

I think folks need to be more open and honest about what they actually do with their bikes. Most ebikers are riding moderate terrain, at moderate speeds, and are simply looking for an easier way to get places. The mfgs know their market. Like non ebikers the majority of ebikers are recreational.

Performance ebikes, designed for tech terrain, will not be as heavy or as powerful because high COG and high weight are not conducive to good handling dynamics. When I compare the handling of my "heavy" 32# FS non ebike to my wife's 50# Levo FS, the difference is night and day. I wouldnt ride my wife's bike on half of the trails i ride.

But don't despair, there will always be less expensive, high powered, heavy ebikes bikes to serve the needs of the masses.



Gutch said:


> How does this bike weigh 38#?? And have a 250w motor. I call BS. No dropper, XC tires, tiny rotors etc. The bike needs some beef or it would tweak out under stress. I can't see any ebike 8# lighter than my Focus with 378w battery, Carbon wheels etc. Where is the 8# weight difference coming from? I can see a pound for Carbon frame, but what else? People say, "why worry about weight on an emtb" it's obviously handling reasons.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I would really like to see this bike on a scale that reads 38#. I disagree about not needing stiffer forks and stronger wheels on an emtb. The inertia and torque are way more than a normal Mtb when ridden hard in tech and drops and such. 
Why isn’t Pivots or Specialized Levo’s 10-12k best emtbs weighing in at 38#? They don’t have the tech?


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Must be the Fazua motor is way lighter, and coupled with a tiny battery and in 27.5” wheels, size small, no pedals - 38#? Nice looking, pretty advanced ebike.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Bigger batteries, bigger motors, bigger frame to accommodate.

I ride serious downhill and I get by just fine with normal wheels, normal suspension, and normal brakes/drivetrain. Pike on the hardtail, Lyrik and Super Deluxe on the FS. Same wheels, same drivetrain, four pot brakes on the enduro.



Gutch said:


> I would really like to see this bike on a scale that reads 38#. I disagree about not needing stiffer forks and stronger wheels on an emtb. The inertia and torque are way more than a normal Mtb when ridden hard in tech and drops and such.
> Why isn't Pivots or Specialized Levo's 10-12k best emtbs weighing in at 38#? They don't have the tech?


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Nurse Ben said:


> Bigger batteries, bigger motors, bigger frame to accommodate.
> 
> I ride serious downhill and I get by just fine with normal wheels, normal suspension, and normal brakes/drivetrain. Pike on the hardtail, Lyrik and Super Deluxe on the FS. Same wheels, same drivetrain, four pot brakes on the enduro.


Those are all up-to-date parts. I have a feeling that this statement is dated. Next thing you know, you'll be saying you'll be fine on whatever you changed and stuck to, which might be heavy duty ebike rated stuff. xD

I just got some e13 TRS tires from Arts for $30 and thought it felt thin/flimsier than expected, as it had a standard casing. Was expecting more probably because of its weight and reputed slow rolling trait. I'm open to heavier duty stuff, over stuff meant to impress on the scales. Wondering what old UST versions of tires were like, now that I want a tire solution that rivals a flimsy tire + tire insert.


----------



## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

I think the biggest advantage of the Fazua motor is that it's removable. So you essentially get a convertible eBike / mountain bike. That could be a key selling point in North America where eBikes are banned in many places. MTB's are so expensive -- motorized or not, it's hard to own more than one expensive bike.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Absolutely.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

notb said:


> I think the biggest advantage of the Fazua motor is that it's removable. So you essentially get a convertible eBike / mountain bike. That could be a key selling point in North America where eBikes are banned in many places. MTB's are so expensive -- motorized or not, it's hard to own more than one expensive bike.


My prediction (again): ten years from now, there will be dedicated MTBs, dedicated eMTBs, and convertible bikes. The convertibles will weigh just a pound or so more than the dedicated MTBs when the motor/battery are not installed. You'll be able to buy the convertible and ride it stand alone, and add motor/battery later. You'll be able to own two or more convertibles and just one motor/battery unit that you can move from bike to bike.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

The problem is overall amps that will create so much heat the motor will be destroyed or the batteries damaged.. Put in a small motor, too high of a gear and watch those amps climb fast, gets worse the heavier a rider is.

Speed controls need to change before the small motor & battery will really work. Speed controls that work on torque and watts that cut off to save the system are needed. What manufacture wants a system that will protect itself and not get you to buy another one.

e-mtb could learn a lot from electric RC since these issues are all over that hobby. Since it is always a balance of weight, amps, watts, capacity etc....


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> The problem is overall amps that will create so much heat the motor will be destroyed or the batteries damaged.. Put in a small motor, too high of a gear and watch those amps climb fast, gets worse the heavier a rider is.
> 
> Speed controls need to change before the small motor & battery will really work. Speed controls that work on torque and watts that cut off to save the system are needed. What manufacture wants a system that will protect itself and not get you to buy another one.
> 
> e-mtb could learn a lot from electric RC since these issues are all over that hobby. Since it is always a balance of weight, amps, watts, capacity etc....


I don't know about Fazua, but all of the major pedal assist units (Bosch, Yamaha, Specialized, Shimano) already have logic to save both the motor and battery by measuring torque input from the rider and output to the crank, heat, and a time curve of battery draw. If and when they go to smaller and lighter systems, I'm sure they will retain that logic.


----------



## TBurd01 (Sep 4, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> My prediction (again): ten years from now, there will be dedicated MTBs, dedicated eMTBs, and convertible bikes. The convertibles will weigh just a pound or so more than the dedicated MTBs when the motor/battery are not installed. You'll be able to buy the convertible and ride it stand alone, and add motor/battery later. You'll be able to own two or more convertibles and just one motor/battery unit that you can move from bike to bike.


I believe bikes like the eZesty will become more of a norm, regardless of whatever happens with regulations (although I wouldn't be surprised if Euro standards are accepted here in the U.S. to replace class 1 as a trade off for trail access). They will not necessarily replace, just become another option in companies lineups. Smaller bikes like the Zesty and then + models with bigger motors and batteries.

With overall motor/battery weights coming down, and some bikes with just smaller packages, eMTB hopefully won't be so heavily spec'd anymore, which will mean even lighter bikes.

5-10 years in the future a Carbon +eMTB FS air 150-170mm could probably be as light as today's AL DH rigs (~17.5kg/38.5 lb.). Carbon eMTB FS air 150-170mm could be as light as today's AL burly enduro rigs (15.5kg/34 lb.). Pricing will also inevitably come down as technology furthers and more people buy eMTB. Still will always be higher priced than a normal MTB, but hopefully shouldn't be as huge of a gap.


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

honkinunit said:


> I don't know about Fazua, but all of the major pedal assist units (Bosch, Yamaha, Specialized, Shimano) already have logic to save both the motor and battery by measuring torque input from the rider and output to the crank, heat, and a time curve of battery draw. If and when they go to smaller and lighter systems, I'm sure they will retain that logic.


I have not tried one of those systems I have a retro fit with a Bafang system that does not have that. I don't think any of the cheaper Chinese systems do from what I have read on e-bike forums for commuting.

But if that programming is there that is awesome to hear and I would love to have something like that in a lower price point system. Since heat is a killer to motors and batteries.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

TBurd01 said:


> I believe bikes like the eZesty will become more of a norm, regardless of whatever happens with regulations (although I wouldn't be surprised if Euro standards are accepted here in the U.S. to replace class 1 as a trade off for trail access).


It's unlikely to impossible that will happen, it costs too much money and time to create a new class and get that new legislation passed in all 50 states. Or to amend what's already there. I was told it cost well over $100k for Colorado. Without legislation to define a class, there's no way to regulate or enforce it. I think we're stuck with Class 1-3 as it is.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Harryman said:


> Unless the motor and battery weigh nothing, they'll never weigh the same as a bike.
> 
> Walk assist is 100w, no one wants just 100w, they'll want 200-250, but only on demand, so smaller, modular batteries seem like a no brainer.
> 
> Lightweight and lower powered will definitely have a market, just like lightweight XC bikes are still around. And certainly on the road side, I can see it being more significant there.


Adding 5-7 lbs is my thinking. Like the Gruber Assist. Or put integrate a drone motor/battery in the drivetrain.

"same as a normal bike" means arrive at an e-bike weight of 32 lbs. Less travel. Maybe a Plus hardtail even. Modular batteries, motors. Just a thought.


----------



## TBurd01 (Sep 4, 2018)

Harryman said:


> It's unlikely to impossible that will happen, it costs too much money and time to create a new class and get that new legislation passed in all 50 states. Or to amend what's already there. I was told it cost well over $100k for Colorado. Without legislation to define a class, there's no way to regulate or enforce it. I think we're stuck with Class 1-3 as it is.


It wouldn't be creating a new class, it would be accepting widely used standards and U.S. regulation defining what an eMTB is; throttle-less, pedal assisted bicycle, motor no larger than 250kw, pedal assist up to 15.5mph/20kph - and where it is allowed - all MTB trails. Old models could have firmware updates or just be grandfathered in as is. Throttle bikes are throttle bikes with different regulations, and these might even need basic insurance etc. in the future (I wouldn't bet against the insurance lobbies not wanting a piece of the pie). No more of these throttle and pedal combos to blur lines of regulation. One standard for pedal assist eMTB, one standard for everything with a throttle, makes things pretty cut and dry.

I'm not saying this is how things should be, but if it comes down to either that or no federal trail access for eMTB, I know what I would rather have.

The global industry is eventually likely going to pick a standard and go with it anyways, and right now it'd probably be going with Europe. Some Euro manufacturers might not even bother producing U.S. specific bikes when they start to sell here.

Global companies won't want to be building bikes to multiple region standards. eMTB isn't now, and will never be, big enough for it to be viable. It's kind of like how motorcycles being sold in the U.S. conform to Euro 4 regulations, or how California drives the U.S. auto emissions.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

TBurd01 said:


> Global companies won't want to be building bikes to multiple region standards. eMTB isn't now, and will never be, big enough for it to be viable. It's kind of like how motorcycles being sold in the U.S. conform to Euro 4 regulations, or how California drives the U.S. auto emissions.


Euro Class 1 vs. US Class 1 is not an issue for manufacturers. It is literally just a firmware value that is set. A minor software change. The actual hardware is exactly the same. In fact, the first few shipments of Shimano powered Bikes Direct eMTBs had the Euro speed limit. All you do is connect a cable and set the speed limit higher.

I'm guessing Yamaha and Shimano are the same as Bosch. They track the country into which a motor system was sold originally, and their firmware update tool will not allow a bike sold in Europe to be set to the US 20 MPH standard. Bosch firmware has not been hacked AFAIK, which is why people who want to override the speed controls have to use wonky speed sensor fooling boxes instead of simply zapping a bit in software.

I have not heard anything about the "Right to Repair" movement in the context of eBikes. It is a huge issue in agriculture, where farmers in the middle of a harvest can be ruined by a simple sensor on a tractor going bad. Without the ability to hack the firmware to bypass the sensor, a farmer can lose their entire crop. In the automotive world, there is a huge industry of companies who sell ECU tuners.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

TBurd01 said:


> It wouldn't be creating a new class, it would be accepting widely used standards and U.S. regulation defining what an eMTB is; throttle-less, pedal assisted bicycle, motor no larger than 250kw, pedal assist up to 15.5mph/20kph - and where it is allowed - all MTB trails.


There isn't any regulation defining what an emtb is, here or in Europe. Pedelc and Class 1 define what those classes of ebikes are, for the street or elsewhere. Pedelcs fall well below the threshold of Class 1, and right now, the major mtb manufacturers are producing only emtbs they can sell in Europe, where the money is, but under US laws, anything with PAS under 750w and 20 mph is legal Class 1. Try to change Class 1 to 250w and the industry won't let you, because they're selling tons of 750-1000w commuting bikes. Ask a LM to allow EU spec emtbs only and how would they regulate it? How would they tell a 250w ebike from a 350 or 750w one? You'd have to define a legal emtb class, have the manufacturers certify and sticker them, the whole bit.


----------



## TBurd01 (Sep 4, 2018)

> Euro Class 1 vs. US Class 1 is not an issue for manufacturers. It is literally just a firmware value that is set. A minor software change. The actual hardware is exactly the same. In fact, the first few shipments of Shimano powered Bikes Direct eMTBs had the Euro speed limit. All you do is connect a cable and set the speed limit higher.


U.S. class 1 allows 750w motors, Euro allows 250w. Firmware changes might work but you won't get full benefit of a 750w motor from a 250w with firmware.



> There isn't any regulation defining what an emtb is, here or in Europe. Pedelc and Class 1 define what those classes of ebikes are, for the street or elsewhere.


When I say eMTB in this context I am refering to Euro pedelec regulations. It's as easy to distinguish as everything with a throttle will not be allowed to have pedals, and the insurance lobbies will want those juicy payments. Just like in Europe. That's pretty clear cut right there. Same thing goes with class 3 and licensing.

We'll see what happens though. The _global_ industry won't be building bikes to two sets of standards. Some Euro manufacturers might not even bother with any changes when they start to sell here.

Either way, the point is I hope more manufacturers make smaller bikes like the eZesty. Simple low assistance and lower weight. On that point, hopefully more go the route of Specialized and have simple LED top tube displays (and get rid of the clunky shifter controls/wires, have these as buttons on the top tube). Lower cost and less clutter to break.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you're talking about, but that's fine, it's the internet.

There are three versions of the e13 tire: +, Race, LG.
If your version feels flimsy, it is probably a lighter version.

There's no magic to ebikes, adding ten pounds of motor and battery means next to nothing compared to what a skilled biker can do to a bike on rugged terrain.

Putting beefier parts on ebikes is akin to pimping out a 4 x 4; it looks cool, but it doesn't make the vehicle tougher or better performing.

You should try breaking what you got before claiming you need "more".



ninjichor said:


> Those are all up-to-date parts. I have a feeling that this statement is dated. Next thing you know, you'll be saying you'll be fine on whatever you changed and stuck to, which might be heavy duty ebike rated stuff. xD
> 
> I just got some e13 TRS tires from Arts for $30 and thought it felt thin/flimsier than expected, as it had a standard casing. Was expecting more probably because of its weight and reputed slow rolling trait. I'm open to heavier duty stuff, over stuff meant to impress on the scales. Wondering what old UST versions of tires were like, now that I want a tire solution that rivals a flimsy tire + tire insert.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Putting beefier parts on a bike/emtb or 4x4 doesn't make them tougher nor better performing? How about an example?

I brought up tires as a part that can have extra weight, that could possibly be "heavy duty", to stand up to more abuse. I was trying to make a point about how weight on the scale doesn't matter as much as what that weight does for you. I'm expecting ebike parts to be tougher and less about weight, and more about performance, since that motor can help carry the weight.

Was simply joking about how your definition of "fine" probably has changed, and have a hunch it will change again. See the "xD". What were you on before your Pike, Lyrik, Superdeluxe, and four-pot brakes (and enduro bike)? Were they not fine at one point? Is that not going to happen again? Does the extra weight of those parts, compared to the weight weenie options, not do anything for you?

Psychological projection?


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ben's point is that 10 pounds is 10 pounds. You aren't putting any significantly greater load on the tires/fork/wheels/etc than you would be if you carried a big pack full of water and tools, or drank too much beer and gained 10 pounds. You *might* add a few PSI to your fork and shock in that situation but you might not even bother. It's not very meaningful whether it's an e-bike or not.

Now, your point that since you've got a motor you can stop worrying about weight is also kinda true. But I don't think anyone wants to go down the road toward 750+watt bikes that weigh 85 pounds except the moto guys. 

-Walt


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

So all you are arguing is calling heavy-duty parts "ebike-optimized" is dumb, since it's 10 extra pounds over a normal bike. What else do you call it? Clyde-optimized? Rated for higher inertia? Just sounds like you're irked by things being coined enduro, except it has changed to ebike, and the word triggers you.

I embrace both enduro and ebike optimized, because it's a solution to 2 major issues:

1) bikes aren't made holistically. Their components vary in specs greatly, and some are even one-size-fits-all.

2) trends being driven by a highly weight conscious market*, considering the "pick-a-part" style custom spec'ing people seem to enjoy.

I just hope that this time around, lower costs are emphasized. I like finding values like SLX cranks with matching steel teeth chainrings, costing no more than a RaceFace alternative (aftermarket). I recall seeing non-series, Deore equivalent 4 piston brakes that were demanded due to ebikes. I might be "fine" with XT 2-piston brakes, but I claim that's because I'm ignorant of these other options and future/unknown ones. That's the point of why I suspected psychological projection.

*see all the noise about being overbiked. "You don't need that..." seems to be echo'd for any new release, whether it's boost or whatever.


----------



## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

ninjichor said:


> So all you are arguing is calling heavy-duty parts "ebike" isn't special. What else do you call it? Clyde-optimized?


Yeah, I think for most components - is just e-bike marketing fluff. Only components off the top of my mind that may need to be e-bike optimized is the drivetrain due to the extra torque and constant gear crunching applied to it.

<EDIT> Though in theory - the drive systems can be programmed to ease off the throttle/torque while shifting just like how we are supposed to do that riding acoustic bikes.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

smoothmoose said:


> Yeah, I think for most components - is just e-bike marketing fluff. Only components off the top of my mind that may need to be e-bike optimized is the drivetrain due to the extra torque and constant gear crunching applied to it.
> 
> <EDIT> Though in theory - the drive systems can be programmed to ease off the throttle/torque while shifting just like how we are supposed to do that riding acoustic bikes.


*shrug* I'd be rocking this stuff on normal bikes until ebikes aren't as shitty as the early 29ers. There's some winners, but they cost way too much.

I can't even tell the difference between e-optimized and regular sometimes. Is the 6090 10spd chain any different from XT HG95? I dunno, but it costs no more, and I'm gonna get it over the XT anyways. My 11-46 XT cassette's 11 and 13t cogs were made of cheese or something, that or I mash them a bit too much on the road (I'm economical enough to have only replaced them, for $5 each). I wanna see an affordable e-optimized cassette. My X01 11spd is dreamy but so expensive. Maybe these things pop up on the 2nd hard market due to weight weenies wanting a lighter ebike. My 36's crown creaks--if that doesn't happen on an e-optimized 36, I might like it.

I benefited from what 29ers brought to the table through demand: thru-axles standard, wider hub spacing, tubeless conversions, all sorts of parts that help with fit. I objected to the huge emphasis on tire weight thought... High Rollers, Minions, Butchers were my bread and butter, but even now these are starting to be a bit weak, thanks to what the enduro movement brought to the table and how my riding has changed.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

I found out something funny today that's relevant to this thread. I have a 500W, 48V motor, five separate pedal-assist levels, and 1100 watts for the throttle (even though it's twist, it's basically an on/off throttle, no wattage modulation). 

I only did level 4 in the dark on a paved road, and never tried level 5. Well guess what, level 5 is 1000W. lol. I may have bought a 500W motor, but either the Chinese dealer screwed up, or the LBS that installed it tweaked it up to 1000W, in a don't ask don't tell kind of deal. 

The question is: are those 1000 watts USEABLE ON DIRT. And the answer for my bike is no, they are not. Anything over 400W with any loose dirt on an incline is unrideable; the tire spins and does not grip enough to be rideable. And 1000W on loose dirt, even on a fire road, is like being on a wild horse w/o a saddle. So to answer the thread's question, if it saves weight, yes I am willing to go down to 250-350W, because 1000W is not practical on loose dirt, at least for the tire widths I'm using (2.45 front, 2.0 back).


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Here's the deal Rich. Watts are the result of V x A's. Not sure how you are getting an exact reading of W's but if they truly are 1000w+ then your controller is set to over 20A. This can be programmed lower, to truly be 500w it would need to be half the A. There is a display that can achieve this called the Cycle Analyst 3. In fact you can set up a controller with the CA 3 that regulates the Amps so that the motor will do 250w - 1000w in increments controlled at the bar via a push button. Similar to assist levels on Pedelecs but more accurate as you can actually see the results on screen as you ride.

As far as your throttle being set to full blast there is a function on the CA 3 that can adjust it's parameters so that it will be more linear. 

I do agree that 1000w for an eMtb is overkill for 95% of trail riding circumstances but also I don't agree that adding the weight and complexity of an e system of only 100w is worth it. A well balanced eBike should be able to compensate for the weight of the system while giving the rider the amount of assist and range they personally need.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^ Bigwheel definitely knows his electronics! Are you in the electronics industry?


----------



## eltee (Nov 10, 2009)

Bigwheel said:


> As far as your throttle being set to full blast there is a function on the CA 3 that can adjust it's parameters so that it will be more linear.


Do you have any leads as to how this can be accomplished, please? I have a Perry's Power Bikes (Co. is in NY) which is a China made eMTB with the Bafang motor. The throttle is a thumb lever, simply an on-off switch with no increments. I would LOVE to have it modified for linear power.

I'm pretty sure simply buying a twist throttle would not accomplish that and that programming and/or some electronic mods would be required.

THANK YOU for any information.


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

A twist throttle won't make any difference as it is going to act the same as long as the controller parameters are set where they are. Here is a link to what you need: V3 Cycle Analyst Info Page Not a cheap fix but it also provides other info and access to controller functions as you can see from the link.

And no, I am not in the electronic's industry. I experimented with e back in 2002 for use as alternative transportation and have tracked it's progress ever since. Being on ES for 15 years taught me a lot about the ins and outs of how an e system works. Although my main focus was for use as alternative transport that doesn't seem to be the way the industry is going.


----------



## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Didn’t read the whole thread, but I did read something about Bafang producing a small light weight mid-drive that is attracting much interest in an Interbike article or one of Cort’s video reviews of it in Reno. Might of already been mentioned, but that pointed my ears...


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Whiptastic said:


> Didn't read the whole thread, but I did read something about Bafang producing a small light weight mid-drive that is attracting much interest in an Interbike article or one of Cort's video reviews of it in Reno. Might of already been mentioned, but that pointed my ears...


Yeah, the M800, only specced on eroadbikes at this point, but it ticks a lot of boxes here.

https://electrek.co/2018/05/07/new-bafang-powertrain-lightweight-electric-road-bikes/


----------



## eltee (Nov 10, 2009)

Bigwheel said:


> A twist throttle won't make any difference as it is going to act the same as long as the controller parameters are set where they are. Here is a link to what you need: V3 Cycle Analyst Info Page Not a cheap fix but it also provides other info and access to controller functions as you can see from the link.
> 
> And no, I am not in the electronic's industry. I experimented with e back in 2002 for use as alternative transportation and have tracked it's progress ever since. Being on ES for 15 years taught me a lot about the ins and outs of how an e system works. Although my main focus was for use as alternative transport that doesn't seem to be the way the industry is going.


Thank you for the lead on the CA products. I've emailed a dealer.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Harryman said:


> Yeah, the M800, only specced on eroadbikes at this point, but it ticks a lot of boxes here.
> 
> https://electrek.co/2018/05/07/new-bafang-powertrain-lightweight-electric-road-bikes/


I like the Fazua concept better because both the motor and battery are easily removable.

I wonder how well the Bafang will pedal without a battery. It looks like a 28lb road bike is doable with that system, and if the battery were removed, it would weigh about 23.6 lb, almost exactly what my first race bike weighed. (mid-70's, Reynolds 531 tubing, Campy Nuevo Record components, sew up tires.)


----------



## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

Both the Fazua and Bafang M800 sound promising in the 10lb (4.5-5kg) system weight.


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

As long as were are talking eRoad bikes I can tell you from my experience with over 3k of time on them that there is no way I would want any less power on tap than the 1000w, legal here in the OR, than I have although I mostly keep my setting at 500w for range. I use a front hub motor system that can be removed easily and replaced with the stock wheel and leave the battery at home with only the controller and display with some wiring left on board but quite frankly never have felt the need.

One thing for sure is that as much as I like torque assist on my eMTB there is no way I would have it on a road bike. Reason being that at the higher cadence associated with road riding I don't like the vague feeling you get with the motor affecting the drive train, kind of like pedaling in mush. At least to me. 

With the front hub motor the drive train is totally disconnected from the drive train and allows me to pedal at the cadence and input I so desire just like if the motor wasn't there. I use a Direct Drive hub motor which many complain has resistance/drag when not in use but both of my motors, 9c and Grin Any Axle, don't exhibit this and the only drag you get is from the extra weight of the bike. 

People without any experience say that a front hub motor won't climb without spinning out but I have also found that to not be the case but in fact they climb steep and loose terrain really well due to their front wheel drive aspect when in congress with my input to the drive train. It is just a matter of getting proper weight distribution and that is not hard to figure out. Also the bikes will go in soft sand, I live near the beach and ride sand, in AWD mode surprisingly well up to a point where a fat bike would struggle.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

smoothmoose said:


> Both the Fazua and Bafang M800 sound promising in the 10lb (4.5-5kg) system weight.


Funny thing is my Bafang hub drive with wheel weighed exactly 11 lbs, so while the mid-drives have a lot of advantages, I don't think they are really lighter. They are probably lighter than the 1st generation of hub drives that came out several years ago, but not now.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Bigwheel said:


> Here's the deal Rich. Watts are the result of V x A's. Not sure how you are getting an exact reading of W's but if they truly are 1000w+ then your controller is set to over 20A. This can be programmed lower, to truly be 500w it would need to be half the A. There is a display that can achieve this called the Cycle Analyst 3. In fact you can set up a controller with the CA 3 that regulates the Amps so that the motor will do 250w - 1000w in increments controlled at the bar via a push button. Similar to assist levels on Pedelecs but more accurate as you can actually see the results on screen as you ride.
> 
> As far as your throttle being set to full blast there is a function on the CA 3 that can adjust it's parameters so that it will be more linear.
> 
> I do agree that 1000w for an eMtb is overkill for 95% of trail riding circumstances but also I don't agree that adding the weight and complexity of an e system of only 100w is worth it. A well balanced eBike should be able to compensate for the weight of the system while giving the rider the amount of assist and range they personally need.


Yes, the five assist levels on this setup are 130, 230, 400, 600, and 1000 watts. The watt readings are coming from a display. A cheap Chinese display, but a display nevertheless. Levels 4 and 5 are not really needed.

Maybe I'll get a different display later that's actually programmable, but I'll just bike for now. I don't like to geek out too much, just ride.

And yes 100W is ridiculous. I was saying I would go down to 250W one day if needed, but not 100W. I don't know who said 100W.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> Funny thing is my Bafang hub drive with wheel weighed exactly 11 lbs, so while the mid-drives have a lot of advantages, I don't think they are really lighter. They are probably lighter than the 1st generation of hub drives that came out several years ago, but not now.


The new mid-drive weight includes the *entire* system - motor, battery and controller.

Hub drives will never be a thing on a real MTB, because hanging that much weight off of the suspension ruins the suspension action. Unsprung weight is the enemy of a good ride. Even on a hardtail, a hub motor makes the F/R balance so bad it isn't really an option.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

honkinunit said:


> The new mid-drive weight includes the *entire* system - motor, battery and controller.
> 
> Hub drives will never be a thing on a real MTB, because hanging that much weight off of the suspension ruins the suspension action. Unsprung weight is the enemy of a good ride. Even on a hardtail, a hub motor makes the F/R balance so bad it isn't really an option.


I see it now: https://electrek.co/2018/05/07/new-bafang-powertrain-lightweight-electric-road-bikes/

200 watts for a road bike setup...hmmm. So that compared to my setup would be pedal assist level 1 and 1.7...not even to level 2. Let's see if 200W can translate to real climbing ability off-road.

As for "Hub drives will never be a thing on a real MTB...", yes, almost all of them are on bikes under $2000, most of them on 26" BSO's. However, as far as defining what a real MTB is, keep in mind that 45% of this MTBR website does not consider any electric-assisted bike a real MTB to begin with anyway.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Thanks Walt, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Bigger and heavier is not better.

This thread is about less weight/less power, so any argument for more weight is really not what this thread is about...



Walt said:


> Ben's point is that 10 pounds is 10 pounds. You aren't putting any significantly greater load on the tires/fork/wheels/etc than you would be if you carried a big pack full of water and tools, or drank too much beer and gained 10 pounds. You *might* add a few PSI to your fork and shock in that situation but you might not even bother. It's not very meaningful whether it's an e-bike or not.
> 
> Now, your point that since you've got a motor you can stop worrying about weight is also kinda true. But I don't think anyone wants to go down the road toward 750+watt bikes that weigh 85 pounds except the moto guys.
> 
> -Walt


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

My point is quite simple: this thread is about lower weight/lower power ebikes.

Weight is weight, as Walt pointed out. The additional weight added to typical ebike vs an equivalent non ebike does not add any significant power or weight to a bike, thus heavier "outfitting" is not necessary.

Since this thread is about lighter weight and lower powered e-bikes, there's no need to discuss outfitting an ebike for high power and high weight.

No projection, just trying to keep this thread from going off the rails.



ninjichor said:


> Putting beefier parts on a bike/emtb or 4x4 doesn't make them tougher nor better performing? How about an example?
> 
> I brought up tires as a part that can have extra weight, that could possibly be "heavy duty", to stand up to more abuse. I was trying to make a point about how weight on the scale doesn't matter as much as what that weight does for you. I'm expecting ebike parts to be tougher and less about weight, and more about performance, since that motor can help carry the weight.
> 
> ...


----------



## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

richj8990 said:


> Let's see if 200W can translate to real climbing ability off-road.


Short answer is it already does climbs well offroad. Most purpose built eMTB have 250W nominal motor - unless eveyone is running on MAX assist - most are using less than 200W.

A WATT is a WATT - but the weight it needs to carries varies. A WATT will carry a 100lbs woman rider about twice as far as 250lb clydesdale. After having my wife test ride several ebikes - sometimes less is more.

As the market expands - I think it does make sense to have eBikes with different size motors and batteries to accommodate a range of rider weight and needs.


----------



## tempsperdu (May 29, 2018)

Sorry late to the thread as I have just started looking at e-bikes as a way to delay my retirement from cycling. 
I found this under development and might even part with my Fargo for one.
https://road.cc/content/tech-news/245794-video-first-look-new-cairn-e-gravel-bike
Yes it contains the 'G' word but just ignore it if it offends you.
I like the concept of slip out the motor and battery and carry beer. Now there is a difficult choice or maybe incentive.
My dream would be to be able to ride an e-bike over long distances recharging at bike shops and cycle cafes because they offer recharging facilities (hint) and a good excuse for a two hour lunch while the bike is charging.
Back to the OP. I think weight is part of the evolution of motors and batteries. No manufacturer wants to produce a 'heavy' product so maybe it will be the other components that have to change? An affordable full carbon e-bike anyone?
One day there may even be build it yourself frames on Aliexpress that will take a down tube battery and branded motor.


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Harryman said:


> There isn't any regulation defining what an emtb is, here or in Europe. Pedelc and Class 1 define what those classes of ebikes are, for the street or elsewhere. Pedelcs fall well below the threshold of Class 1, and right now, the major mtb manufacturers are producing only emtbs they can sell in Europe, where the money is, but under US laws, anything with PAS under 750w and 20 mph is legal Class 1. Try to change Class 1 to 250w and the industry won't let you, because they're selling tons of 750-1000w commuting bikes. Ask a LM to allow EU spec emtbs only and how would they regulate it? How would they tell a 250w ebike from a 350 or 750w one? You'd have to define a legal emtb class, have the manufacturers certify and sticker them, the whole bit.


Well now there are UCI regulations. Take note of language: "An E-Mountain Bike is a bike...".

















New regulation changes can be viewed here: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/coach-chris-kilmurray-analyses-the-2019-uci-mtb-rule-book.html


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

250w max & 25km/hr. Certainly the best man/woman will win cause the bike won’t be much help. Not to mention there are no eMtb’s made that peak @ 250w


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

MattMay said:


> Well now there are UCI regulations. Take note of language: "An E-Mountain Bike is a bike...".


And why are we taking note of that language? I am not seeing anything special there. A bike with a motor has always been a bike. They call them motorbikes :skep:


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Because if you read the forums you’ll find hundreds of “an e-bike is not a bike/bicycle” statements. Flies in the face of what anti e-bikers argue. I have no dog in the hunt...just observing.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MattMay said:


> Because if you read the forums you'll find hundreds of "an e-bike is not a bike/bicycle" statements.


Bike and bicycle mean 2 different things.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

the definition of “bike” is “a bicycle or motorcycle”. This has been the definition well before ebikes ever became popular. Still nothing special in anyway about that language.


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Did I say special? If you’re spoiling for a meaningless argument, take your comments elsewhere.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

MattMay said:


> Did I say special? If you're spoiling for a meaningless argument, take your comments elsewhere.


Look, your post was an obvious troll. And it's not even relevant to the discussion of low (or lower) power e-bikes. If you'd like to have the definition of "bike" discussion again, feel free to post a separate thread, eh?

-Walt


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

MattMay said:


> Did I say special? If you're spoiling for a meaningless argument, take your comments elsewhere.


Right, didn't realize the word "special" offended you so much. Does this work better for you then?

"the definition of "bike" is "a bicycle or motorcycle". This has been the definition well before ebikes ever became popular. Still nothing that needs to be noted about that language."


----------

