# Paragon sliding drop-out adjustment?



## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Not sure where to best post this, or maybe just call paragon directly... anyways I appreciate any tips....

I've got paragon sliding drops on my curtlo and I've got a few questions:

Whats the best/most accurate way to make sure the drop-outs are adjusted so the wheel is aligned with the frame? I've been visually checking it but it doesn't seem very accurate with so many other factors.
I've noticed that over the course of a few rides, the drive-side drop-out pulls forward under chain torque (or maybe the non-drive is getting pushed back by brake torque), resulting in the wheel coming off-center. Any tips on preventing this? I do have the beefy (i.e. non-button-head) bolts.
The horizontal screws- are they there just for alignment purposes, or are they meant to prevent the drop-outs from moving forward under torque? I ask because mine aren't super tight, perhaps this might help with #2.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

The drop-outs.....


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

put some washers under those bolts. Are those the stockers? You need to spread out the force across more of the face. They are hard to find PVD had some but 12 point flanged bolts work wonders too.

Use a torque wrench and make sure you are putting a measurable amount of force on the bolts. My guess is in addition to the small bolt heads you probably do not have them tight enough. Hand tightening is notoriously unreliable. I personally use a torque wrench.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

What are you thinking by not using washers under those bolts? Bad mechanic = poor results.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

pvd said:


> What are you thinking by not using washers under those bolts? Bad mechanic = poor results.


Whoa, easy there.

No washers is how paragon ships them.
So would that be a bad mechanic, poor design or bad QA?
Anyways I do like the drop-outs.

Either way, I will try washers and maybe torx bolts.
I do own a torque wrench, but haven't found any torque specs. I'll check with paragon on that.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Probably just a fudge on the part of Paragon.

Almost always a bolt, unless it is a flanged bolt should have a shoulder washer underneath it to provide more surface area.

There are charts which help with determining how much torque to apply to a fastener. I have books with that info but here is a chart I found quickly on the internet.

http://dodgeram.org/tech/specs/bolts/SAE_bolts-NM.html

Find the size SAE closest to what you are working with and the base material and it will give you a good rule of thumb.

Bolts can apply tremendous pressure. A standard 1/4 bolt with 80% thread contact, in steel can generate 5000 lbs of downward force. Multiple that * 4 and divide by 2 for aluminum and that is still 10k pounds, if properly tightened and with enough surface area to distribute the force. I don't think that is going anywhere, unless you are the hulk

Really a 12 pt bolt like this one

https://www.allensfasteners.com/detail.asp?Product_ID=0539+12PT+BLACK+OXIDE+METRIC

in stainless would be optimal. If you can find it.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Thanks Dave :thumbsup:


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

FM said:


> Whoa, easy there.
> 
> No washers is how paragon ships them.


Not all bolts are equal. Paragon ships them with pan heads. Those are not the stock bolts for sure.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

This is how I do it:










Stainless steel, of course.

I don't care how someone else ships there stuff. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Passing on someone else's mistake is how races get lost.

https://pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=PVD_Slider_and_brake_hardware_upgrade


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

pvd said:


> What are you thinking by not using washers under those bolts? Bad mechanic = poor results.


 Why do you feel that its nessecary to jump everyones **** and try to make them feel stupid, paragon ships them with buttonheads, no washers, why would anyone assume to use a washer ? I've never had a problem with mine loosening and I don't use washers.
Did you notice how dave calmly replied and gave helpful information? every word in your post was either belittleing or demeaning, it is so counterproductive. I , like many other people i'm sure ,come here for information and learning, we all learn from others questions and answers, you are not helping that process at all, so get ahold of your self and think before you post please.


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

j-ro said:


> Why do you feel that its nessecary to jump everyones **** and try to make them feel stupid, paragon ships them with buttonheads, no washers, why would anyone assume to use a washer ? I've never had a problem with mine loosening and I don't use washers.
> Did you notice how dave calmly replied and gave helpful information? every word in your post was either belittleing or demeaning, it is so counterproductive. I , like many other people i'm sure ,come here for information and learning, we all learn from others questions and answers, you are not helping that process at all, so get ahold of your self and think before you post please.


he just thinks he is better than EVERYONE else, I tend to ignore most of his posts, he does however have very useful info most of the time.

his wiki is only there to boost his ego


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

j-ro said:


> Why do you...


Toughen up a little, chiquita. Not everyone is interested in pretending to be stupid just so that you can understand. If you start actually thinking about things, you may be able to contribute a little here.

Just because a product is shipped a certian way, doesn't make it right. The OP is such a bad mechanic, he even made his problems worse. His bike works bad because he doesn't know how to work on a bike. That IS the reason for the problem. That is what I mentioned. Any experienced mechanic would have fixed the problem..like I did.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

scooter916 said:


> he just thinks he is better than EVERYONE else..


I don't think I'm better than anybody else. I just take this more seriously, I put more time and energy into figuring things out than most, then I offer the fruits of that work to others instead of keeping it all a secret.

What are you doing? (Holding hands and crying with the 'Promise Keepers' doesn't count.)


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

pvd said:


> The OP is such a bad mechanic, he even made his problems worse. His bike works bad because he doesn't know how to work on a bike. That IS the reason for the problem.


Wow, you are a drama queen! 
Drop-outs slipping 1-2mm over 4-6 big rides, not really that big of a deal to me, just a 2 minute trailside adjustment.

apply your own logic. If I had known that aftermarket washers and replacement hardware were required, then I wouldn't have asked. I came here seeking knowledge, not your ego-stroking condescension.

Thanks for reminding me why I spend less and less time here on MTBR, too many E-blowhards like yourself.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

FM said:


> ...not really that big of a deal to me.


The difference between a good and a bad mechanic.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

PVD is the Soup Nazi of frame building. I love it.

-Schmitty-


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

pvd said:


> Toughen up a little, chiquita. Not everyone is interested in pretending to be stupid just so that you can understand. If you start actually thinking about things, you may be able to contribute a little here.
> 
> Just because a product is shipped a certian way, doesn't make it right. The OP is such a bad mechanic, he even made his problems worse. His bike works bad because he doesn't know how to work on a bike. That IS the reason for the problem. That is what I mentioned. Any experienced mechanic would have fixed the problem..like I did.


 Toughen up? dude, you have no idea........... I'm simply attempting to take the high road here, this is a f-o-r-u-m , a place to share info, it is clear that he doesnt know how to work on that part of his bike , thats- why- he's - asking ! .

Also, by calling me chiquita, you are clearly in violation of user rule number one, :nono:


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*My advice*

I think question number 2 has been more than adequately, um, "answered". So I'll stick to the other 2.

1. The most *useful* way is with your eyeballs (the most accurate way would probably involve lasers, or sharks with lasers on their heads, or at least a lot of fancy bike alignment tools that you don't want to spend the money for). If your bike goes in a straight line when you want it to, the rear wheel is as aligned/straight in the frame as you need it to be. Don't sweat it any more than eyeballing, it's a waste of your time.

3. Take those screws out and throw them away. In my experience, they only serve to break/bind/seize in the holes. Get some washers and/or upgrade hardware as per the many other posts and you'll solve your slipping problem. Don't try to use the setscrews for this purpose. If anything, they are simply there as guides to allow fine tuning of wheel position, not to resist serious pedaling forces.

-Walt



FM said:


> Not sure where to best post this, or maybe just call paragon directly... anyways I appreciate any tips....
> 
> I've got paragon sliding drops on my curtlo and I've got a few questions:
> 
> ...


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

j-ro said:


> ..this is a f-o-r-u-m , a place to share info..


You may be new to the english language or not have a very broad vocabulary, but you are a bit off with your definition. A 'forum' is a place for discussion. Many people seem to forget that. I'm here for discussion.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forum

Right now, we seem to be discussing how bad of a mechanic this guy is and his acceptance of less than stellar perfomance from his work and his bike.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Paragon has changed the screws, going from gooey stainless to plated steel. Don't throw them away without trying them first.

Take a piece of flat bar stock. Drill two holes in it. use M5 screws to attach the D/Os to the bar via the tapped holes. Clamp them on your fixture. Viola: aligned dropouts!


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

Does mtbr.com give out asshat of the year awards? If so, pvd you've most definitely got a lock on that one.


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

pvd said:


> I just take this more seriously, I put more time and energy into figuring things out than most, then I offer the fruits of that work to others instead of keeping it all a secret.


I call shenanigans. Here is a quote, plain and simple, where you say you work hard at figuring things out and then share them openly, without keeping secrets.

Yet, when asked why you believe a 10spd chain is stronger than 9spd chains (or whatever the argument was), you criticize people for not taking the time to figure it out for themselves.

Dude, you are a smart guy. Nobody will argue with that. But to say that you "offer the fruits of that [your] work to others instead of keeiping it all a secret" is a far stretch.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

RoyDean said:


> But to say that you "offer the fruits of that [your] work to others instead of keeiping it all a secret" is a far stretch.


You've got to be kidding?

http://www.pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=Category:Bicycle


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

MMcG said:


> Does mtbr.com give out asshat of the year awards? If so, pvd you've most definitely got a lock on that one.


:thumbsup: 
His chainguide got him that award already !!
He's now going for Asshat of the century !


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

pvd said:


> You've got to be kidding?


Why is a 10spd chain stronger (or better) than a 9spd? I searched on your wiki but couldn't find it. No, I'm not kidding.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

RoyDean said:


> Why...


Why don't you get back to me with the answer? Why are you looking to me to spoon feed you what you can figure out for yourself?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Another one bites the dust...*

...locked. This is going nowhere, again.

For everyone on the thread: if your reply isn't even vaguely relevant to the topic at hand, DO NOT POST IT. I don't care who is an asshat and who isn't, this kind of thing ruins a good forum. If you feel the need to vent, go do it elsewhere.

All of you behave. And Pete, you catch more flies with honey. Seriously.

-Walt


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