# Hayes are back. Dominion 4 piston released at Eurobike.



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-hayes-dominion-a4-brake.html


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## cobba (Apr 5, 2007)

Does this have anything to do with the blurred brakes in the instagram photo from March?


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bg2GQp9l2uQ/


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

cobba said:


> Does this have anything to do with the blurred brakes in the instagram photo from March?
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Bg2GQp9l2uQ/


:ihih:


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Interested. What can you compare them to?

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> Interested. What can you compare them to?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


I can compare them to Saint and XT. With the stock pads they are similar power for the same lever squeeze.

With the metallic pads fitted they scare people who normally ride Saint and XT.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Sounds fantastic, everything I want in a brake. As with everything though the judgement shall wait until it's reliability is known.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GRPABT1 said:


> Sounds fantastic, everything I want in a brake. As with everything though the judgement shall wait until it's reliability is known.


Lifetime leak proof warranty:
http://www.hayesdiscbrake.com/support/

My original hayes mags (2000) are still working. The rear has slow fluid loss somewhere. Probably should replace the hose.
I regularly ride my 2006 HFX Nine (split clamp version). In 12 years I haven't actually bled the back brake. The front has had new pads twice and rotor change once. It was bled with those pad changes.
I've been on Hayes Prime Feb 2015 to Dec 2017 and they've been rock solid with no maintenance in 3 years. Still in use.
But they don't have the power or lever feel the Dominion has.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

The key think for me in regards to disc brakes are 1) how easy are they to set up; 2) how trouble free are they; 3) how easy are they do simple maintenance on; 4) and how much do they cost?

XT brakes are cheap, are ridiculously easy to set up, are trouble free and dead easy to do simple maintenance on.

From the review, it looks like 1 looks to be a good. Will need to see how 2 -4 play out. The cross-hair feature seems fantastic.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> The key think for me in regards to disc brakes are 1) how easy are they to set up; 2) how trouble free are they; 3) how easy are they do simple maintenance on; 4) and how much do they cost?
> 
> XT brakes are cheap, are ridiculously easy to set up, are trouble free and dead easy to do simple maintenance on.


All those boxes are ticked. Except the performance is even better. Especially at the extreme end as DOT fluid doesn't gas out when it gets hot. So they don't need regular bleeding.


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bc3LcT0lxW9/

*edit*
RRP on the Dominion is $US230 per end plus rotors/adapters. The new rotor is $US50.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Looking to replace my formulas for a new build and soon. Anybody know how much the sintered pads will cost? And when are they available?


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

The grub screws on the caliper is pretty trick.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Deerhill said:


> Looking to replace my formulas for a new build and soon. Anybody know how much the sintered pads will cost? And when are they available?


They come with two sets of pads. Semi-metallic and sintered metallic. The semi-metallic is on par with the best brakes out there. The sintered metallic will scare most riders.

I'll should have shipping info when everyone gets back from Eurobike.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

RS VR6 said:


> The grub screws on the caliper is pretty trick.


Yes, it's not guesswork, but it is a nuisance aligning the caliper. Honestly the main trouble comes from untrue rotors, but I'm glad to see the grub screws anyway.

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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

One thing I don't understand:

On Shimano brakes the reservoir sits on top of the piston cylinder. In practice that means that if there is any air in the system it will find its way up into the reservoir and the brake will work perfectly.

On this new brake the reservoir is underneath the cylinder. With the cylinder the highest part of the system, any air will stay there and you've got mushy brakes. 

Am I missing something here as it seems like a fairly big oversight?


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## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

Based on the cutaway view and the shape of some dials/levers, these look pretty similar to some '07 Code's I have. I'm slowly in the process of rebuilding them, but they were phenomenal brakes and will be used for a long time.

I'm very excited to try these Dominions!!! My old trek 8500LT (2000 era) had the Hayes brakes on them, and they rocked it for 8 years with some serious neglect. Shame I wasn't as into cycling when they finally stopped working, those 22mm mount calipers are frequently asked for now.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Mr Pig said:


> One thing I don't understand:
> 
> On Shimano brakes the reservoir sits on top of the piston cylinder. In practice that means that if there is any air in the system it will find its way up into the reservoir and the brake will work perfectly.
> 
> ...


They did say they can be flipped to work on either side ?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

GRPABT1 said:


> They did say they can be flipped to work on either side 樂


That might be why they've designed it that way. By making the lever symmetrical the end user can put them on either side and Hayes cut costs by not having to make left and right levers!

Shimano levers are less elegant looking than many, due to that lump of a reservoir sitting on top of the lever, but they have reasons for it and it contributes to the ease of use and reliability of the brakes. In use, the brakes will 'self-bleed' and are very tolerant of air in the system. You can run the brakes with air in them for years and no experience any ill effects. Contrast that with Avid brakes, which had a tiny reservoir and were a total pain.

On these new Hayes brakes the highest point in the system is here, were I've put the arrow, exactly were you do not want it. Sure, you can flip the levers but I'd rather have a brake that can tolerate an imperfect bleed and still function.









Like I said, maybe I'm missing something? I'm happy to be corrected but to be it seems to me like they've sacrificed reliability to save money and make a nicer looking lever.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> That might be why they've designed it that way. By making the lever symmetrical the end user can put them on either side and Hayes cut costs by not having to make left and right levers!
> 
> Shimano levers are less elegant looking than many, due to that lump of a reservoir sitting on top of the lever, but they have reasons for it and it contributes to the ease of use and reliability of the brakes. In use, the brakes will 'self-bleed' and are very tolerant of air in the system. You can run the brakes with air in them for years and no experience any ill effects. Contrast that with Avid brakes, which had a tiny reservoir and were a total pain.
> 
> ...


I think you're over thinking this. If any company knows about disc brakes, it's Hayes. I think they invented the mountain bike disc brake. It's a cutaway that's shown also, so maybe some part of reservoir is still at the high point.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

MikeDee said:


> I think you're over thinking this.


Possibly. Like I said, I be happy to hear my thoughts contradicted but I certainty wouldn't assume that because they've made brakes for a while they make the best ones. Look at SRAM/Avid!


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

I really hope these will be nice. Based on what I have read so far, they do look promising and a good fit for me.

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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Why suddenly the resurgence of DOT fluids instead of mineral oil? Weren't their last iteration (RADAR I think) using the mineral oil?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

gregnash said:


> Why suddenly the resurgence of DOT fluids instead of mineral oil? Weren't their last iteration (RADAR I think) using the mineral oil?


I don't understand that either. I think it may be safety related. People might think you can use any mineral oil in their brakes and buy stuff that is not safe. Any DOT brake fluid will be safe.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Hope these new hayes sintered pads are under $25-35 a pop...*



Mr Pig said:


> I don't understand that either. I think it may be safety related. People might think you can use any mineral oil in their brakes and buy stuff that is not safe. Any DOT brake fluid will be safe.


Surface area..these are almost double compared to say a formula sintered pad..going to get HAF with an over 200lb rider, that's my guess, think the 5.1 is the silicone bases fluid iirc more heat resistant?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Deerhill said:


> Surface area..these are almost double compared to say a formula sintered pad..going to get HAF with an over 200lb rider, that's my guess, think the 5.1 is the silicone bases fluid iirc more heat resistant?


Exotic dot5.1 does get into very high boiling points. Way higher than mineral or even dot4. I'm not sure if that's even an issue with mtb brakes though...

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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*I've never used 5.1 on MTB..*

5.1 is not compatible w/ the other fluids Mr Pig (least I'm pretty sure)..think you're correct on the other DOT fluids being able to get along/mix iirc

*edit*
You're correct. I was thinking of the silicone version that is not compatible w/ the other DOT fluids


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Exotic dot5.1 does get into very high boiling points. Way higher than mineral or even dot4. I'm not sure if that's even an issue with mtb brakes though...


I think these Hayes brakes are DOT4 compatible?

Shimano mineral oil brakes are clearly capable of dealing with the heat, although the special rotors ect suggest it is more borderline than they might admit! My point is that you can buy 'mineral oil' that is not suitable for use in brakes. I've seen guys come on here and ask for cheaper alternatives to Shimano mineral oil. Mental I know but some muppet somewhere has probably put cooking oil or something into his Shimano brakes!

If you go into an auto parts store and buy DOT4 it will be fine. Even the cheaper brands have to meet standards that ensure it is safe so you cannot buy the wrong DOT4.

Also, if DOT fluid does have higher heat resistance it makes designing the brakes easier. Shimano engineer their brakes to put more heat into the rotor, they put fins on the pads etc. They clearly have to be careful about how the brake manages the heat. If you use a fluid that can take more heat you don't need to bother with that. Not as much anyway.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> I think these Hayes brakes are DOT4 compatible?.


Thought I read they were 5.1..nevermind what I said then, was thinking of the incompatible silicone version


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RS VR6 said:


> The grub screws on the caliper is pretty trick.


Hayes have used them since about 2012 and have them patented. While they're fantastic for fine tuning the initial setup. The real time saver is removing and refitting. For example for fork maintenance.

The brake goes back on exactly as it came off and alignment is preserved.



Mr Pig said:


> One thing I don't understand:
> 
> On Shimano brakes the reservoir sits on top of the piston cylinder. In practice that means that if there is any air in the system it will find its way up into the reservoir and the brake will work perfectly.
> 
> ...


Hayes have made flippable levers since the late 90's. It makes sense on every level from rental fleets (customers from LHD vs RHD countries) to selling new brakes pre-bled across the planet to design, manufacture and stocking of parts. There is one lever assembly.

I've been riding them since 2000. Never had an issue with air getting in.



gregnash said:


> Why suddenly the resurgence of DOT fluids instead of mineral oil? Weren't their last iteration (RADAR I think) using the mineral oil?


Mineral oil is fine in low performance applications. But get it hot and it releases gas. This is why open bath DH forks have air bleed buttons and it's why mineral oil brakes which get hot need bled all the time.

Hayes are now doing mineral oil in their Radar brake. It's a great brake, but has exactly the same limitation as other mineral oil brakes. Get them too hot and they go mushy as the fluid releases gas. A rebleed fixes it. Until next time.

DOT fluid brakes used on exactly the same rides stay rock solid. Which is why DOT is used for automotive.



ColinL said:


> Exotic dot5.1 does get into very high boiling points. Way higher than mineral or even dot4. I'm not sure if that's even an issue with mtb brakes though...
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk





Deerhill said:


> 5.1 is not compatible w/ the other fluids Mr Pig (least I'm pretty sure)..think you're correct on the other DOT fluids being able to get along/mix iirc


DOT 5.1 isn't technically it's own classification. It's a name used by some manufacturers for their Super DOT4 fluids. It's the highest performing bracket. But some manufacturers will have DOT4 fluids comparable with other manufacturers DOT 5.1

DOT 5 Silicone is the only odd one out.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Deerhill said:


> Thought I read they were 5.1


Not sure but I thought I read they can use either.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> Not sure but I thought I read they can use either.


Dot 4, DOT 5.1. Same same.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

They look real nice, but at the price point they are at ($5-600 for a set), that's pretty steep.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MikeDee said:


> They look real nice, but at the price point they are at ($5-600 for a set), that's pretty steep.


I say the same while looking at carbon bikes!


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

MikeDee said:


> They look real nice, but at the price point they are at ($5-600 for a set), that's pretty steep.


Made in America. It's like buying Hope stuff here in the UK, you're not just buying the product, there is a certain pride of ownership attached too.

Sometimes it's nice just to have something that's different. You know, when all the guys on the trail have Shimano and the guys walking bikes to the car-park have SRAM ;0)


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> Made in America. It's like buying Hope stuff here in the UK, you're not just buying the product, there is a certain pride of ownership attached too.
> 
> Sometimes it's nice just to have something that's different. You know, when all the guys on the trail have Shimano and the guys walking bikes to the car-park have SRAM ;0)


Really, made in America? I actually did not know that but that does change my view of the price point. Thanks for pointing that out!


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> Really, made in America?


Actually, you'd better check that. Maybe they're just an American company but the brakes are made elsewhere. I could be wrong on that.


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Is that a proper seal on the push rod to keep crud out of the master cylinder?


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## griffsterb (May 10, 2014)

Bump. Anyone have these yet? Universal Cycles has them in stock, $220ea and they have 15% off, comes out to ~$375 for a set. 

I've been waiting for a while to dump my XTs, I'm so tired of the pumping and the rear getting squishy all the time. I don't like how cheap the levers feel either. 

Formula Curas had my eye for a while, and they're cheaper... but I really like the design of these Hayes and the reviews so far are fantastic. They're sooo ugly though


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

I respect Hayes and I imagine these brakes will do well. At that pricepoint, for me, I’m buying Hope.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> Actually, you'd better check that. Maybe they're just an American company but the brakes are made elsewhere. I could be wrong on that.


Considering there's a HAYES BICYCLE GROUP ASIA based in Taiwan...I'd say it's a safe bet on the made elsewhere.

Are there any other Hayes brakes that are still available new that are worth looking at as a Guide RS replacement? I'm not willing or able to spend nearly $400 on brakes right now. I'm generally happy with my Guides but getting them setup is a absolute PITA....so much I'm thinking about replacing them. When they are adjusted they work well though so it's a shame they suck to dial in. I've honestly never paid any attention to Hayes brakes in the past so I don't know the first thing about the brand or line up.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Im 215lb, and I liked my hayes strokers. With 8 inch rotors, they had plenty of power. Mine we're 08's, and in that 10 years they got one fluid change after 7 years. I finally retired them last week. 

Im on shimanos now. Id gladly go back to hayes. Id look at primes, which were the stroker replacement/improvement.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Do Tektro make anything special? Don't laugh but I've never seen any problems on Tektro hydro brakes.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

One Pivot said:


> Im 215lb, and I liked my hayes strokers. With 8 inch rotors, they had plenty of power. Mine we're 08's, and in that 10 years they got one fluid change after 7 years. I finally retired them last week.
> 
> Im on shimanos now. Id gladly go back to hayes. Id look at primes, which were the stroker replacement/improvement.


I'll check them out. $200 for front and rear...that's just first place I looked. Probably other deals out there. I'd guess I could get at least half that out of the Guides.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nubster said:


> Considering there's a HAYES BICYCLE GROUP ASIA based in Taiwan...I'd say it's a safe bet on the made elsewhere.
> 
> Are there any other Hayes brakes that are still available new that are worth looking at as a Guide RS replacement? I'm not willing or able to spend nearly $400 on brakes right now. I'm generally happy with my Guides but getting them setup is a absolute PITA....so much I'm thinking about replacing them. When they are adjusted they work well though so it's a shame they suck to dial in. I've honestly never paid any attention to Hayes brakes in the past so I don't know the first thing about the brand or line up.


Hayes have dropped all their other hydraulics, this Dominion is it. There are still a few Radar (mineral oil) and Pryme (DOT fluid) brakes available but they're out of production.

Hayes still do the mechanical brakes too. A big cyclocross thing apparently. But I've never done that.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Mr Pig said:


> Do Tektro make anything special? Don't laugh but I've never seen any problems on Tektro hydro brakes.


TRP is Tectro's big boy brakes.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

I am considering to get these brakes.
My main concern now is the longer lever and 1 finver braking. I hope they will work with sram shifter and bikeyoke lever fot wise.
Will I need the Hayes adapters as well?
Planning to get the rear and front 180mm D rotors as well
I am on older xtrs now.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Mineral oil is fine in low performance applications. But get it hot and it releases gas. This is why open bath DH forks have air bleed buttons and it's why mineral oil brakes which get hot need bled all the time.
> 
> Hayes are now doing mineral oil in their Radar brake. It's a great brake, but has exactly the same limitation as other mineral oil brakes. Get them too hot and they go mushy as the fluid releases gas. A rebleed fixes it. Until next time.
> 
> DOT fluid brakes used on exactly the same rides stay rock solid. Which is why DOT is used for automotive.


not sure what you mean by gassing out, but the boiling point of mineral oil (at least shimano type) is higher than DOT, especially after DOT got water in.
see boiling point table half way down

The lack of performance under heat is not based on fluid limit due to gas bubbles, but due to lower friction factor of hor brake pads and rotors. Obviously wet DOT fluid could degrade brakes before the pads do. but assuming your fluid isn't boiling, brakes lose power due to less friction when hot. You could have cable brakes (if you have really strong hands!) and experience fading due to heat.

There was a recent thread of people using some sort of drugstore mineral oil, obviously that won't work well at all. but if you use shimano produced fluid it will withstand heat, beyond what most pads and rotors can.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

HerrKaLeun said:


> not sure what you mean by gassing out, but the boiling point of mineral oil (at least shimano type) is higher than DOT, especially after DOT got water in.
> see boiling point table half way down


Boiling point is not the issue. If you boil your brake fluid, you're having an extremely bad time.
Mineral oils produce gas at much lower temperatures. At atmospheric pressure and temperature a mineral oil contains about 8% air by volume. The mineral oil releases gas when heated and does not reabsorb all of it when it cools.

That is why suspension forks have air bleed valves. They produce gas internally as the oil heats and works which builds up pressure. Enough pressure and they not only impact performance, but they can blow seals.
Even vacuum degassing the oil does not stop more gas being produced. It reduces the problem, but does not stop it.

There are no brands of mineral oil brake immune to these fluid gassing problems. If you want to step into synthetic fluids then that's a completely different subject. Take a look at mineral oil brakes and you will see the effort they go to to keep fluid temps low. Including insulating pistons, rotors which conduct heat better and even cooling fins on pads.



HerrKaLeun said:


> The lack of performance under heat is not based on fluid limit due to gas bubbles, but due to lower friction factor of hor brake pads and rotors. Obviously wet DOT fluid could degrade brakes before the pads do. but assuming your fluid isn't boiling, brakes lose power due to less friction when hot. You could have cable brakes (if you have really strong hands!) and experience fading due to heat.
> 
> There was a recent thread of people using some sort of drugstore mineral oil, obviously that won't work well at all. but if you use shimano produced fluid it will withstand heat, beyond what most pads and rotors can.


Pad fade is a completely separate issue. Pad fade doesn't require your brakes to be rebled afterwards to get a firm lever.

All mineral oils have this problem. Regardless of brand. Which is one of the reasons why DOT fluids exist.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> I am considering to get these brakes.
> My main concern now is the longer lever and 1 finver braking. I hope they will work with sram shifter and bikeyoke lever fot wise.
> Will I need the Hayes adapters as well?
> Planning to get the rear and front 180mm D rotors as well
> ...


Hayes have Peacemaker clamps coming to fit with Shimano I Spec and SRAM Matchmaker shifters. What is your concern with lever length?

Shimano adapters sometimes don't have enough clearance for other brand calipers.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Hayes have Peacemaker clamps coming to fit with Shimano I Spec and SRAM Matchmaker shifters. What is your concern with lever length?
> 
> Shimano adapters sometimes don't have enough clearance for other brand calipers.


The length.
Since the lever seems to be longer than xtr/xt one, my concern is the sgifter would be pushed too far inward on the bars.
The matchmaker could work, but the positioning is also limited.
I remember not liking sram brake/shifter combo on some demo bike due to not being able to get them exactly where I wanted them.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> The length.
> Since the lever seems to be longer than xtr/xt one, my concern is the sgifter would be pushed too far inward on the bars.
> The matchmaker could work, but the positioning is also limited.
> I remember not liking sram brake/shifter combo on some demo bike due to not being able to get them exactly where I wanted them.
> ...


The lever is 80mm from pivot to end. It's a completely normal sized brake.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Get a chance to see how much the sintered replacement pads cost yet?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Deerhill said:


> Get a chance to see how much the sintered replacement pads cost yet?


RRP is $US30 per set.

Same price for T106 semi-metallic and T100 metallic.

For those interested. HFX Mag pads are still available. $US21 per set.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> The lever is 80mm from pivot to end. It's a completely normal sized brake.


80mm might be too long.
Shimano is 70mm. The adapter might work here.










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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm becoming more interested after reading about it on PB.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Could they tear me away from Saints?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> 80mm might be too long.
> Shimano is 70mm. The adapter might work here.
> 
> 
> ...


You haven't measured from the pivot. It's the shiney pin that looks about 75-80mm on your ruler.

I measured SRAM guides and some other Shimanos I have lying around. Lever pivot to end of blade. 
SRAM was 81mm, Shimano 77mm.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> Do Tektro make anything special? Don't laugh but I've never seen any problems on Tektro hydro brakes.


Reviews I've read say they lack power.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

griffsterb said:


> Bump. Anyone have these yet?


I had a prototype set 2 years ago that blew me away with both power and lever feel. Then I got a preproduction set a year ago that was just as good, but more refined.

Still on that preprod set now. Best brakes I've ever used.


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## griffsterb (May 10, 2014)

mikesee said:


> I had a prototype set 2 years ago that blew me away with both power and lever feel. Then I got a preproduction set a year ago that was just as good, but more refined.
> 
> Still on that preprod set now. Best brakes I've ever used.


Thanks, nice to talk to someone who's ridden them. I like a really powerful brake, XTs are close, but the build quality is trash now, they feel so cheap, and I'm done with the pumping up crap.

I'll probably buy the Hayes soon. Wish they weren't so ugly though


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Would like to hear some real world ride reports between Saint, the new Cura 4 pistons, and these new Hayes. Based on how good the OG Cura's are, I'd wager their new 4 piston calipers will be the brake to beat. The Hayes do look like they put a lot of thought and engineering into them.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> RRP is $US30 per set.
> 
> Same price for T106 semi-metallic and T100 metallic.
> 
> For those interested. HFX Mag pads are still available. $US21 per set.


Thanks, think that's inline considering the size..long as the actual pad material thickness isn't rediculous thin.

Installed lever reach adj. on my the one's and they snapped/sh!t the bed..went back to the hex adj. and they're just fine but my trigger finger feels like it's time for an upgrade.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> Would like to hear some real world ride reports between Saint, the new Cura 4 pistons, and these new Hayes. Based on how good the OG Cura's are, I'd wager their new 4 piston calipers will be the brake to beat. The Hayes do look like they put a lot of thought and engineering into them.


Same, though I never really wanted to switch to mineral oil so I have yet to try the new formulas..(shemano is the ugly duck, looks wise imo)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

WHALENARD said:


> Would like to hear some real world ride reports between Saint, the new Cura 4 pistons, and these new Hayes. Based on how good the OG Cura's are, I'd wager their new 4 piston calipers will be the brake to beat. The Hayes do look like they put a lot of thought and engineering into them.


I've ridden these back to back with Saint: Hayes are back. Dominion 4 piston released at Eurobike.- Mtbr.com

I don't know anyone who rides Formula brakes.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*There handlebar photo somewhere w/ lever adjusted full in?*

Thing I am remembering now w/ my FR lever, had to bend the thing w/ c-clamps because the throw started waay too far from the bar..the starting angle was kicked way out

Can these dominion a4 levers be adjusted so the end of throw is almost bottoming on the handle bars? w/ the lever adjusted all the way in, where is the lever starting, parallel to the bars? I am a picky sob w/brake levers, some have a wacked out reach


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Deerhill said:


> Thing I am remembering now w/ my FR lever, had to bend the thing w/ c-clamps because the throw started waay too far from the bar..the starting angle was kicked way out
> 
> Can these dominion a4 levers be adjusted so the end of throw is almost bottoming on the handle bars? w/ the lever adjusted all the way in, where is the lever starting, parallel to the bars? I am a picky sob w/brake levers, some have a wacked out reach


Reach is adjustable with the big dial. Bite point is factory set, but you can screw with it if you feel the need.

I've got big hands and fat grips. But winding the reach all the way in on my prototypes the lever starts to bite about 5-8mm from the grip. It comes out to about parallel.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Reach is adjustable with the big dial. Bite point is factory set, but you can screw with it if you feel the need.
> 
> I've got big hands and fat grips. But winding the reach all the way in on my prototypes the lever starts to bite about 5-8mm from the grip. It comes out to about parallel.


How long is the stroke to the bite point set by the factory?
I am looking for a brake with the shortest one possible. I own shimano xtr.

Also, do you know if hayes adapters are needed or can i use shimanos?
180mm rotor rear/front. Post mount.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

jazzanova said:


> How long is the stroke to the bite point set by the factory?
> I am looking for a brake with the shortest one possible. I own shimano xtr.
> 
> Also, do you know if hayes adapters are needed or can i use shimanos?
> 180mm rotor rear/front. Post mount.


Iirc each pad/side in the caliper can be hex adjusted closer, that's gonna make for a nice short as possible adjustment


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

mikesee said:


> I had a prototype set 2 years ago that blew me away with both power and lever feel. Then I got a preproduction set a year ago that was just as good, but more refined.
> 
> Still on that preprod set now. Best brakes I've ever used.


Do you know if the levers work well adjusted close to the bar? Or are they out of cam like shimono? I had to bend my M8000.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Cerberus75 said:


> Do you know if the levers work well adjusted close to the bar? Or are they out of cam like shimono? I had to bend my M8000.


The reach adjustment does not move the cam on M8000

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## mikeetheviking (Jan 27, 2015)

Want!

Subscribed!


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Do the Dominion brakes have a variable ratio lever like Shimano Servowave and the Hayes Prime do?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> How long is the stroke to the bite point set by the factory?
> I am looking for a brake with the shortest one possible. I own shimano xtr.
> 
> Also, do you know if hayes adapters are needed or can i use shimanos?
> 180mm rotor rear/front. Post mount.


You're going to have to find a set of these to see if they fit your specific needs.

Shimano adapters often don't have the depth to clear the calipers on other brand brakes.



Deerhill said:


> Iirc each pad/side in the caliper can be hex adjusted closer, that's gonna make for a nice short as possible adjustment


Eh? The only brakes adjustable in that way are the old Hope C2's and mechanical brakes. There is no individual piston adjustment on any self-adjusting hydraulic brake.

The cross-hair alignment is for setting the whole caliper on the adapter so it aligns with the rotor.



Cerberus75 said:


> Do you know if the levers work well adjusted close to the bar? Or are they out of cam like shimono? I had to bend my M8000.


The cam motion stays set and the lever adjustment moves the blade in relation to the cam. So motion ratios are the same for wound right in to wound right out.



MikeDee said:


> Do the Dominion brakes have a variable ratio lever like Shimano Servowave and the Hayes Prime do?


I'm not sure exactly what you mean there. Every brake lever has a motion ratio that moves as the brake is stroked. See above regarding the motion ratio of the cam being set independent of lever position.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I can compare them to Saint and XT. With the stock pads they are similar power for the same lever squeeze.
> 
> With the metallic pads fitted they scare people who normally ride Saint and XT.


Do you have any time on Hope Tech 3 E4 or V4?
I am trying to decide between these and Dominion.

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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Ive not ran the Dominion (yet) but would purchase these over a Hope brake any day of the week. I went from Hope to Magura and will never go back to Hope (and I love their stuff, just not their brakes). Im itching to try these Dominions and compare to the Magura MT7's which have been the best brakes I have ridden to date.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Do you have any time on Hope Tech 3 E4 or V4?
> I am trying to decide between these and Dominion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


I have not. I don't ride with anyone running a recent Hope brake.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Dougal said:


> You're going to have to find a set of these to see if they fit your specific needs.
> 
> Shimano adapters often don't have the depth to clear the calipers on other brand brakes.
> 
> ...


Since it uses a cam to actuate the piston, I assume it's variable leverage.

The description for the Prime says "Leverage increases throughout the stroke, for better modulation and higher power at the end."

I want linear brakes. More predictable and controllable. I'll just stick with my Stroker Trails, although they are a bit underpowered. I also don't want high maintenance four piston calipers (i.e., more problems with sticky pistons).


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Eh? The only brakes adjustable in that way are the old Hope C2's and mechanical brakes. There is no individual piston adjustment on any self-adjusting hydraulic brake.
> 
> The cross-hair alignment is for setting the whole caliper on the adapter so it aligns with the rotor.


Wishfull thinking on my part, due to "used hydro brakes lazy piston seal syndrome"..i must've been tired when I read the article on this new setup


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

MikeDee said:


> Since it uses a cam to actuate the piston, I assume it's variable leverage.
> 
> The description for the Prime says "Leverage increases throughout the stroke, for better modulation and higher power at the end."
> 
> I want linear brakes. More predictable and controllable. I'll just stick with my Stroker Trails, although they are a bit underpowered. I also don't want high maintenance four piston calipers (i.e., more problems with sticky pistons).


You are missing out...


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I have not. I don't ride with anyone running a recent Hope brake.


One more question.
Do I need the Hayes bleed kit?
Any special fotting I would need to bleed these?

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MikeDee said:


> Since it uses a cam to actuate the piston, I assume it's variable leverage.
> 
> The description for the Prime says "Leverage increases throughout the stroke, for better modulation and higher power at the end."
> 
> I want linear brakes. More predictable and controllable. I'll just stick with my Stroker Trails, although they are a bit underpowered. I also don't want high maintenance four piston calipers (i.e., more problems with sticky pistons).


Because all brakes use a pivot to drive a sliding master cyilnder, they all have variable rates. It's how they all work. It's not possible to draw conclusions about control from a simple description.

Sticky pistons is a design problem affecting certain brands/models, it's not related to the number of pistons.



jazzanova said:


> One more question.
> Do I need the Hayes bleed kit?
> Any special fotting I would need to bleed these?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


They use the same M5 bleed ports as other brakes. The only difference is you want to use DOT 5.1 fluid to maintain the high temp performance.

Remember not to use a mineral oil brake bleed kit. It might be tempting but you do not want to start mixing those fluids in the same bleed tools.


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## mikeetheviking (Jan 27, 2015)

For those interested in these brakes... I thought it would be beneficial to point out that “Silicone based dot 5 is very different than Glycol based Dot 5.1”

Absolutely do not mix them!

Also note: Do not get glycol based Dot 4 or Dot 5.1 spilled on important stuff and left without washing... the stuff is like acid, it will even eat powdercoat!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

mikeetheviking said:


> For those interested in these brakes... I thought it would be beneficial to point out that "Silicone based dot 5 is very different than Glycol based Dot 5.1"
> 
> Absolutely do not mix them!
> 
> Also note: Do not get glycol based Dot 4 or Dot 5.1 spilled on important stuff and left without washing... the stuff is like acid, it will even eat powdercoat!


This is one of the main problems with DOT fluid period. It is corrosive and thus was causing issues with the external items when left uncleaned (hence why most brake bleeding instructions had you immediately clean the area and anything that may have been possibly touched with rubbing alcohol). However, I do believe that DOT 5 is supposed to be a "stronger" version of the DOT fluids.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> This is one of the main problems with DOT fluid period. It is corrosive and thus was causing issues with the external items when left uncleaned (hence why most brake bleeding instructions had you immediately clean the area and anything that may have been possibly touched with rubbing alcohol). However, I do believe that DOT 5 is supposed to be a "stronger" version of the DOT fluids.


Water is the best way to clean up DOT fluid. It's hydrophillic so it absorbs and washes away very well.
It's not corrosive like acid. It's just a solvent to certain plastics. Like powdercoat.

Luckily DOT 5 silicone is rare so very few people will make the mistake of using it.


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## Trailhwk17 (Jun 21, 2018)

Just ordered my set of Dominions. Looking forward to consistent, great feel and modulation braking.


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## Trailhwk17 (Jun 21, 2018)

First ride with the Dominion A4s. Anyone looking for a brake upgrade and considering Hope, Magura etc. needs to add the Dominion from Hayes to their list. Got my first ride in with them today and they do exactly what the reviews claim. Read the reviews and then buy these brakes if you are riding Trail, AM, Enduro etc. I will update with more testing and time on them to ensure they stay consistent. I found my riding was faster today on my home trails because I am now able to feather the brakes more than I could with well tuned SRAM Guides. And they are quiet as claimed.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Cerberus75 said:


> Do you know if the levers work well adjusted close to the bar? Or are they out of cam like shimono? I had to bend my M8000.


For me they do.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Trailhwk17 said:


> First ride with the Dominion A4s. Anyone looking for a brake upgrade and considering Hope, Magura etc. needs to add the Dominion from Hayes to their list. Got my first ride in with them today and they do exactly what the reviews claim. Read the reviews and then buy these brakes if you are riding Trail, AM, Enduro etc. I will update with more testing and time on them to ensure they stay consistent. I found my riding was faster today on my home trails because I am now able to feather the brakes more than I could with well tuned SRAM Guides. And they are quiet as claimed.


How easy were they to set up/install?


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> How easy were they to set up/install?


Not that hard or different than any other brakes.
I had to cut both lines. That's a 5min job.
I bled them before I mounted them and did the 3 way bleed on both.
Lever to 1st caliper bleed port
Lever to 2nd
1st Caliper bleed port to 2nd
The adjustment pads to rotor is super easy and fast.

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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*One finger?*

What are you guys over 200lbs noticing about the lever pull after getting used to it, beefie return spring or does it feel lighter on extended runs??


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mikeetheviking said:


> For those interested in these brakes... I thought it would be beneficial to point out that "Silicone based dot 5 is very different than Glycol based Dot 5.1"
> 
> Absolutely do not mix them!
> 
> Also note: Do not get glycol based Dot 4 or Dot 5.1 spilled on important stuff and left without washing... the stuff is like acid, it will even eat powdercoat!


Welcome to 1999.


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## Prickly geezer (Aug 1, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Mineral oil is fine in low performance applications. But get it hot and it releases gas. This is why open bath DH forks have air bleed buttons and it's why mineral oil brakes which get hot need bled all the time.
> 
> Hayes are now doing mineral oil in their Radar brake. It's a great brake, but has exactly the same limitation as other mineral oil brakes. Get them too hot and they go mushy as the fluid releases gas. A rebleed fixes it. Until next time.
> 
> ...


You are a fantastic representative and salesman, but facts are here showing your serious bias.

Mineral oil brakes do not need frequent bleeding and do not turn mushy after just a few rides. The boling point of Shimano oil is 280 degrees Celcius, Dot 4.0 tops at 230 5.1 is somewhere near Shimano oil (275).

DOT Brake Fluid vs. Mineral Oil - and the Winner is.. | Epic Bleed Solutions

The Hayes brakes are beautiful, but that does not create advantages which simply are not there. The difference between Mineral and DOT certainly is not in the performance as you suggest, courtesy of independent testing (there are more articles that go into this at length, temperature is not a major difference).

And about automotive, well, stopping a Car and stopping a bike are mechanically similar, but the amount of force involved is rather different. You would not want a car brake on your bike, now would you?


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Deerhill said:


> What are you guys over 200lbs noticing about the lever pull after getting used to it, beefie return spring or does it feel lighter on extended runs??


This has me intrigued. Similar to the guides heat issue?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Prickly geezer said:


> You are a fantastic representative and salesman, but facts are here showing your serious bias.
> 
> Mineral oil brakes do not need frequent bleeding and do not turn mushy after just a few rides. The boling point of Shimano oil is 280 degrees Celcius, Dot 4.0 tops at 230 5.1 is somewhere near Shimano oil (275).
> 
> ...


I will let him answer but I don't think he was saying that. From his post ""Boiling point is not the issue. If you boil your brake fluid, you're having an extremely bad time. Mineral oils produce gas at much lower temperatures. At atmospheric pressure and temperature a mineral oil contains about 8% air by volume. The mineral oil releases gas when heated and does not reabsorb all of it when it cools."

I got the impression that he is implying that heating releases the gas from the oil leading to air in the system that can't be re-absorbed by the oil.

Don't know what is true or not. I personally have used my XT brakes for almost 4 years and have only bled them once.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

I have only 2 rides on the Dominion so far.
Having a problem with my rear.
I am getting the wandering point of engagement. It happend on my first ride on a shorter but steep and twisty trail, which requires a lot of constant braking.
My old xtrs used to do it, but only on this particular trail.

So, I did the bleeding again, the full 3 way bleed and don't think there was much air left, if any. The bleeding was done with the caliper unmounted from the bike.
Using Motul 5.1.

Anyway, I just rode 5 steep DHs today, hoping I fixed the problem, but nope. Every single run after a minute or so, the lever stiffend up and the point of engagement moved further away from the bars. It also felt like I had to press it harder,...
When I let go of the brake for 5sec or more they returned back to normal, but eventually stiffened up again...

I will try to cut the hose again and do the full bleed, will also call Hayes on monday. 



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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

Rode my new Dominions on a short ride this am. Very impressed so far.

You end up forgetting they are there. Smooth. Linear response. Low effort vs braking power. Very small dead stroke. But not grabby.

Reach adjustment has finer gradient than others I've tried so that's good if you're finicky about lever position.

I'm running the sintered pads and there's a tiny chirp from the front with light apply. I may try the semi-metallic pads to see the difference. May just do a re-align procedure first.

In any case, these are by far the best feeling brakes I've had.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

LCW said:


> ... Smooth. Linear response. Low effort vs braking power. Very small dead stroke. But not grabby.
> 
> In any case, these are by far the best feeling brakes I've had.


I like the sound of this..hope more will chime in..



GRPABT1 said:


> This has me intrigued. Similar to the guides heat issue?





jazzanova said:


> I have only 2 rides on the Dominion so far.
> Having a problem with my rear.
> I am getting the wandering point of engagement. It happend on my first ride on a shorter but steep and twisty trail, which requires a lot of constant braking.
> My old xtrs used to do it, but only on this particular trail.
> ...


I don't have these yet, but that sounds more like either over filled, air in system or both..I'd try resetting pistons and bleed + dbl check alignment w/pads out and make sure pistons are extend/retracting at same pace and not bending rotor..hope you get it sorted, keep us posted


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Prickly geezer said:


> You are a fantastic representative and salesman, but facts are here showing your serious bias.
> 
> Mineral oil brakes do not need frequent bleeding and do not turn mushy after just a few rides. The boling point of Shimano oil is 280 degrees Celcius, Dot 4.0 tops at 230 5.1 is somewhere near Shimano oil (275).
> 
> ...


Boiling is not the issue. The issue is the air dissolved in mineral oils (~8% by volume) which gets released as the fluid heats. I've already address it in post 47 above. Here it is copied in below again.



Dougal said:


> Boiling point is not the issue. If you boil your brake fluid, you're having an extremely bad time.
> Mineral oils produce gas at much lower temperatures. At atmospheric pressure and temperature a mineral oil contains about 8% air by volume. The mineral oil releases gas when heated and does not reabsorb all of it when it cools.
> 
> That is why suspension forks have air bleed valves. They produce gas internally as the oil heats and works which builds up pressure. Enough pressure and they not only impact performance, but they can blow seals.
> ...


You claim bias. But it has nothing to do with brand. The Hayes Radar (mineral oil) brakes suffer the same problem when used intensively.

My bike brakes get hotter than my car brakes.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> I have only 2 rides on the Dominion so far.
> Having a problem with my rear.
> I am getting the wandering point of engagement. It happend on my first ride on a shorter but steep and twisty trail, which requires a lot of constant braking.
> My old xtrs used to do it, but only on this particular trail.
> ...


Sounds like the brake reservoir is overfilled with fluid, so there is nowhere for the extra fluid volume to go as it heats and expands.

Crack the bleed screw and push the pads back. This will squirt out about the right amount of fluid for the reservoir to work correctly.

Let us know how you get on.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like the brake reservoir is overfilled with fluid, so there is nowhere for the extra fluid volume to go as it heats and expands.
> 
> Crack the bleed screw and push the pads back. This will squirt out about the right amount of fluid for the reservoir to work correctly.
> 
> Let us know how you get on.


Thanks.
I have just done it, but the pads where almost all the way in to start with. There wasnt much of a caliper sticking out, so could push them in only a little bit. Nothing came out of the lever bleed port...

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Thanks.
> I have just done it, but the pads where almost all the way in to start with. There wasnt much of a caliper sticking out, so could push them in only a little bit. Nothing came out of the lever bleed port...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


So going back to your earlier description of the problem. Are you holding the brake on constantly or are you releasing the lever so it can reset?


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

Did a longer ride today on the Dom A4s.... I've never felt a more consistent brake. Ever.


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## Trailhwk17 (Jun 21, 2018)

Will get some more time on the Dominions tomorrow. Need to bleed the front brake. Had to have it shortened to install and didn’t bleed it but have a little play compared to the back on bite point. Other than that the first 3 hour test ride was amazing.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I installed a set of Dominion A4s yesterday, coming from SRAM Guide RSC. Initial impressions follow. I have not gotten them onto the trail yet - and it's rainy here so maybe late this week, best case.

The Dominion caliper is huge. It's significantly larger and heavier than the Guide caliper. However, after cutting hoses, I found that the Dominion caliper, hose and lever system is only about 17 grams heavier than the Guide RSC I was replacing. I didn't weigh the cylinder & levers separately, but it seems obvious that Hayes is making back some of the weight in the cylinder and lever assembly.

I'm using Galfer rotors. Used them on motos a lot of years and have used them a few times before for MTB. SRAM rotors seem to always be untrue regardless of whom I bought them from - Jenson, Amazon, LBS. The Galfers came from Jenson true, and they are cheap and light. Almost 30g per rotor lighter than the same size (180mm) SRAM centerline.

Installation was relatively easy. I have a little issue with the rear brake mount. I had been using an old Magura QM10 IS-to-post 180mm rotor adapter for a long, long time. I had Magura MT4 brakes multiple bikes ago and the adapter fit, so I was using it.  It will not clear the Dominion caliper when the washers are properly installed on top of the IS mount. I had a Shimano 180mm mount and it was not even close to working. I'll be ordering either Hayes or the new Magura mount today (MT7 is pretty huge also. I am fairly confident Magura would clear, and I don't know about Hayes' older offerings.)

The lever is certainly low effort, and it has a wide range of usable travel. If you want Shimano style 50% braking in your face as soon as the lever engages, this brake does not do that. In fact it seems designed specifically to be the opposite of that. You'll need to ride and retrain your brain to use the Dominion brake lever properly.

I also don't think my pads are fully bedded yet. I don't have any hills in my neighborhood so I have to pedal up to speed then brake hard.

I did think it's interesting that they come with both semi-metallic and sintered metal pads. In mine the semi-metallic were preinstalled and sintered in a bag. Yet no bleed block. No problem for me - I found that a Magura bleed block worked great.

Someone asked if it works well when adjusted close to the bar. I have long fingers (XL or XXL glove), so I'd never ride that way but I tried it out of curiosity. It seemed to me that if you adjusted the lever fairly close to the bar the long travel of the lever could result in pulling the lever all the way to the bar. Adjusted fairly far out for my fingers, I still can pull the lever considerably farther than any other MTB brake I can recall using.

I was pretty meticulous about the bleeding process, having them off the bike, and always drew air from the highest point. It could be, though, that I need to bleed them again and this will reduce lever travel. There is unquestionably a huge amount of modulation but someone coming from a Shimano on/off style brake will have a big learning curve and they might honestly dislike what they're feeling. I rode Magura a lot of years and liked the modulation, but the power sucked until they came out with the MT5 & 7 four piston brakes. I loved my SRAM Guide RSCs when they were new, but I'm over those damn plastic pistons and ordered the aluminum ones from eBay. I noted from the service manual that the Dominion has an aluminum piston.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Pics.









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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

One more. Huge.









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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

Pics with sintered but I'm riding them with the semi-met right now.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

LCW said:


> Pics with sintered but I'm riding them with the semi-met right now.


Interesting, yours have white lettering? Mine are black. And I see you have a post mount 180 rear brake so you didn't need an adapter.

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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

No idea why the lettering would be different. Yes post mount rear sized for 180 rotor on the HT LT.


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## Trailhwk17 (Jun 21, 2018)

*Dominion A4 Caliper Lettering Color*



LCW said:


> No idea why the lettering would be different.
> 
> Mine are black lettering also. I wonder if Marketing at Hayes Brakes realized it is very hard to see the brake name and changed to white to get the new brake recognized easier


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## Trailhwk17 (Jun 21, 2018)

Trailhwk17 said:


> Will get some more time on the Dominions tomorrow. Need to bleed the front brake. Had to have it shortened to install and didn't bleed it but have a little play compared to the back on bite point. Other than that the first 3 hour test ride was amazing.


Put another 3 hours of time on them today. Now that I bled both lines the are engaging almost right at initial pull and smooth all the way to as much stopping power as you want. I didn't even have to do the three way bleed since if you are careful shortening the lines there is just a little bit of air up in the lever.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

Rode mine again today. These brakes are so amazing I can't recommend them enough!

Demo'ed some 2019 Santa Cruz's yesterday and they had Guides. Better than my XT M8000's but still garbage in comparison to the Dominions!

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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I've now done about 12 hours of rides on my Dominions, but it's all not much elevation change and thus not much sustained braking. I'll get a chance at some decent descents over the next month but nothing like lift serviced bike parks for a while. 

I love the modulation. With a perfect bleed the lever engages fast with the lever reach fairly far extended.

Oh yeah; the Hayes rear brake adapter works great. It didn't look anything like the pic on universal cycles, but it clears the caliper easily.

I have zero braking noise with the Galfer rotors and semi metallic hayes pads.

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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

I've got Stroker Trails on my bike. I'm not happy with the braking power so I'm going to try larger rotors. If that doesn't work, will the Dominions work with these rotors and adapters (Hayes L and V series rotors)?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MikeDee said:


> I've got Stroker Trails on my bike. I'm not happy with the braking power so I'm going to try larger rotors. If that doesn't work, will the Dominions work with these rotors and adapters (Hayes L and V series rotors)?


Yes all the rotors and adapters are interchangable.

I'd go for the new D series. Then they'll match your new brakes when you upgrade.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

OK where are people buying these? Keen to get a set


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Unversal cycles had them


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Deerhill said:


> Unversal cycles had them


That's where I got mine, but "keen" makes me wonder if this is a European purchase. I didn't check CRC or bike-discount.de

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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

I'm Australian. The listed Hayes distributor doesn't even have any of their stuff.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GRPABT1 said:


> I'm Australian. The listed Hayes distributor doesn't even have any of their stuff.


Australia has been a black hole for a while now. We've been covering all warranty and tech support from NZ. We can ship to Australia and should have our first Dominions for sale within a week.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Australia has been a black hole for a while now. We've been covering all warranty and tech support from NZ. We can ship to Australia and should have our first Dominions for sale within a week.


That will be awesome if I could order a set through you from NZ. If it's possible to pre-order just send me a PM. Otherwise I'll check out the link in your signature and keep and eye out for them.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

I’m a Clyde (260) looking for something that will hold up to the heat. Guides didn’t quite cut it, XTR’s seemed like a flimsy cheap brake, currently on Saints and love the stopping power but burnt some SRAM rotors. Put on ice tech rotors and the pads would rub after hard braking sessions until the fluid cooled down is my guess. 
Are these Dominions the ticket? I’m running 203/180 which is as big as my frame will take.


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## griffsterb (May 10, 2014)

Dougal said:


> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-hayes-dominion-a4-brake.html


Hey Dougal. I'm close to pulling the trigger on a set of these, but I'm wondering if you can answer something. In the Hayes bleed/hose shortening videos they use a 1-piece compression bushing/barb, but the Dominion bleed kits look like they include a bunch of single compression bushings and maybe 1 barb?

Can you clarify what the brakes actually require and if the bleed kit or brakes come with extras for a hose shortening? Thanks dude


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

farfromovin said:


> I'm a Clyde (260) looking for something that will hold up to the heat. Guides didn't quite cut it, XTR's seemed like a flimsy cheap brake, currently on Saints and love the stopping power but burnt some SRAM rotors. Put on ice tech rotors and the pads would rub after hard braking sessions until the fluid cooled down is my guess.
> Are these Dominions the ticket? I'm running 203/180 which is as big as my frame will take.


In a huge Hayes fan in general, but just being real, you're not going to do much better than 203 ice techs and saints. That's about as much heat control as bike brakes get.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

griffsterb said:


> Hey Dougal. I'm close to pulling the trigger on a set of these, but I'm wondering if you can answer something. In the Hayes bleed/hose shortening videos they use a 1-piece compression bushing/barb, but the Dominion bleed kits look like they include a bunch of single compression bushings and maybe 1 barb?
> 
> Can you clarify what the brakes actually require and if the bleed kit or brakes come with extras for a hose shortening? Thanks dude


Short answer is I don't know. I haven't had to cut the hoses on my own set.

The DOT 4 bleed kit I have has the olives without barb: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/pro-bleed-kit-dot-4-fluid-hayes.html
DOT 5.1 bleed kit hasn't arrived yet, but I'm expecting the same kit with different fluid.

I've emailed the question and will post up the answer.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

The two I have could be dinged, but has anybody else had a problem w/warped 203 shemano rotors, or is it just me?


Edit* They're the less fuggly mk rotors (like in LCW's pic above), not trying to put the rotors down, but they are a real pain to get straight (enough) again


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I don't know what's in a Hayes bleed kit - I just used the same kit as I used for my sram guide - because they're both dot, but what you get with the Dominion brakes (per assembly) is:

Lever and cylinder
Hose
One hose barb and olive
Semi metallic pads installed
Sintered metal pads in a bag

Also, my brakes are probably early production because they have black lettering. Newer have white.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

ColinL said:


> I don't know what's in a Hayes bleed kit - I just used the same kit as I used for my sram guide - because they're both dot, but what you get with the Dominion brakes (per assembly) is:
> 
> Lever and cylinder
> Hose
> ...


That's handy they ship withetallic pads also.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

griffsterb said:


> Hey Dougal. I'm close to pulling the trigger on a set of these, but I'm wondering if you can answer something. In the Hayes bleed/hose shortening videos they use a 1-piece compression bushing/barb, but the Dominion bleed kits look like they include a bunch of single compression bushings and maybe 1 barb?
> 
> Can you clarify what the brakes actually require and if the bleed kit or brakes come with extras for a hose shortening? Thanks dude


Got word back from Hayes.

These use the same barbed hose fittings as all Hayes in recent memory do. There's a full bleed and service guide here: http://www.hayesdiscbrake.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/DOMINION-A4-SERVICE-BLEED-GUIDE.pdf

The olives in the bleed kit are to securely retain the clear hose on the syringe fittings. You can see these fitted in the same bleed guide above.

As ColinL said, the Dominion kits include a new barbed hose fitting and compression nut so you can shorten your hoses if required.
They also come with both sintered-metallic and semi-metallic pads.

These small parts are also available through any shop that does Hayes. I have a small pile of the barb fittings from way back.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

farfromovin said:


> I'm a Clyde (260) looking for something that will hold up to the heat. Guides didn't quite cut it, XTR's seemed like a flimsy cheap brake, currently on Saints and love the stopping power but burnt some SRAM rotors. Put on ice tech rotors and the pads would rub after hard braking sessions until the fluid cooled down is my guess.
> Are these Dominions the ticket? I'm running 203/180 which is as big as my frame will take.


How much heat the brakes take depends on how you brake and how fast you ride. The faster you ride, the faster they cool down. The hottest situation is continuous braking down steep but slow technical tracks.

Historically I've been able to turn my front Hayes rotors a shade of purple with heat (almost 300C). I've always run DOT 5.1 or Super DOT 4 and never had a fluid heat problem. 
But interestingly I have not yet discoloured the rotors on my Dominions. I suspect I'm riding faster so more cooling wind and braking harder but less often so less heat soak. I didn't expect stronger brakes would change my usage enough to run that much cooler!

You will need to run the sintered-metallic pads if you're getting them that hot. They maintain friction at very high temps.

Oxide colours vs temp here:








Heat Treatment - DT Online


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## griffsterb (May 10, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Got word back from Hayes.
> 
> These use the same barbed hose fittings as all Hayes in recent memory do. There's a full bleed and service guide here: http://www.hayesdiscbrake.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/DOMINION-A4-SERVICE-BLEED-GUIDE.pdf
> 
> ...


Looks like 1 barb/nut for one hose shortening? Hopefully I don't have to shorten either, but we'll see. Might be time to pull the trigger... thanks for checking into that for me.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

griffsterb said:


> Looks like 1 barb/nut for one hose shortening? Hopefully I don't have to shorten either, but we'll see. Might be time to pull the trigger... thanks for checking into that for me.


Each brake box set (front or rear) includes the bits to shorten the hose. So buy a pair and you can shorten both.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Dougal said:


> How much heat the brakes take depends on how you brake and how fast you ride. The faster you ride, the faster they cool down. The hottest situation is continuous braking down steep but slow technical tracks.


Thanks, I'm at a crossroads now between these or MT7's. Really like that MT7's have been tested by third parties and their strengths and weaknesses are well documented. This brake, well, besides this thread I've found nothing else online. A couple people in here saying it's the best brake ever and one guy who had some small problems.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

farfromovin said:


> Thanks, I'm at a crossroads now between these or MT7's. Really like that MT7's have been tested by third parties and their strengths and weaknesses are well documented. This brake, well, besides this thread I've found nothing else online. A couple people in here saying it's the best brake ever and one guy who had some small problems.


There are several reviews from popular mtb sites. I read them all and jumped in after my sram guide rsc seized.

There's only been 2 issues reported in this thread, both of which are really set up issues.

1) Some existing brake mounts will be too small. Hayes works obviously.

2) Spend the time to cut and bleed the lines properly. If you've never really mastered the two syringe technique invite a capable friend over for a beer to help you.

Personally, I found that a final bleed at the reservoir only took my front brake from "pretty good" to "perfect". I would have redone all three ports if necessary... It just wasn't.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

farfromovin said:


> Thanks, I'm at a crossroads now between these or MT7's. Really like that MT7's have been tested by third parties and their strengths and weaknesses are well documented. This brake, well, besides this thread I've found nothing else online. A couple people in here saying it's the best brake ever and one guy who had some small problems.


I was tossing up this same choice and ultimately just ordered the Dominions. They're similarly priced but it sounds like the Dominion wins on modulation which is important coming from Guides which actually have great modulation (when they work).


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

GRPABT1 said:


> I was tossing up this same choice and ultimately just ordered the Dominions. They're similarly priced but it sounds like the Dominion wins on modulation which is important coming from Guides which actually have great modulation (when they work).


Thanks, miss the modulation from my Guide Ultimates. It's a hard toss up for me but I came across a Magura deal too good to pass up so I'm gonna try some MT5/7 variants (MT1893) for a bit. If they become too fussy which is my biggest fear for them, I know the Dominion is the next brake on the list!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Nice write up:

https://enduro-mtb.com/en/hayes-dominion-review/


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Nice write up:
> 
> https://enduro-mtb.com/en/hayes-dominion-review/


Very nice review. So according to them the power goes from MT7 to Saint to Dominion to Code. However, the Dominion has the best lever feel and modulation on the market. Not too shabby!


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

After reading what you guys were saying about the new Dominions, I was curious. My Guide RSC's have performed flawlessly, but sometimes they require a lot of lever input. Could these newfangled Hayes be all they're cracked up to be? Are they just hype? There's only one way to find out.

Most of the online prices were the same, but I found a place that would give me a discount. I ordered up some Hayes Dominions with two-day shipping, expecting that I'd just bolt 'em on, and I'd be riding an hour after the UPS guy showed up at the door. Riiiiiight... 

The first "glitch" was in the rotors. Hayes doesn't show centerlocks on their web page, so I decided to stick with my Shimano Freeza's. Nope. The calipers on the Dominions are pretty huge, and don't clear the aluminum fins on the Freeza's. Great. So off the shop I went, and came home with a couple regular Ice Tech's. That problem was solved. 

The next "glitch" was also a result of the gargantuan Hayes calipers. None of the adapters I had on the shelf would accommodate the caliper. None of the shops near here carry Hayes adapters. The Southwest distributor for Hayes says that they're no longer a distributor for Hayes. Hayes finally called me, and gave me some part numbers, but my shops can't find one of those numbers. Sigh. Off the the bike shop again to dig through their retail stock as well as their parts drawer. I found a Shimano 203 and 180, and brought them home. The 203 was a perfect fit on the front. The 180 adapter didn't quite fit, so I clamped it into the milling machine and fixed it. Now the calipers were mounted. 

Mounting levers should be easy, right? It should have been, but I forgot that my Sram setup had an integral clamp for the lever and shifter. The project has now evolved into a chore. Mrs. Iron was calling me for dinner, and I needed a break anyway. After dinner, I realized that I CAN use the integral clamp. It would function fine, and look good to all but the most discerning eye. So I put it all together, and then went inside to order up the correct clamp. 

The hoses were stupidly long, so I chopped them and used the supplied barb to put everything back together. Bleeding is like bleeding anything else. The thread size is the same as Sram, Avid, Formula, etc. For the caliper, you need a bleed adapter with a long snout. No surprises in the bleed. 

After a break in, in front of the house, and a quickie ride, today I took the new brakes on a trail where I could really use them. I could tell you my impressions on their performance, but all the professional reviewers have already done their work, and they all seem in agreement: there's loads of modulation and a ton of power. They're right. When you let off, the brakes are OFF. 

There's a bit of a learning curve. The same lever input that I used on the Guides is a bit hamfisted for the Dominions. Gotta pay attention to using more finesse. But when I do, I can charge further and faster before shedding speed. Now I'm eager to get them into some steep technical rocks. So far I'm happy with the performance. Maybe I'm not as happy after throwing down for the brakes... and then new rotors... and then new adapters... and finally a clamp. But I'll soon forget about that, and all that will be left is the new brake stoke.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

farfromovin said:


> Very nice review. So according to them the power goes from MT7 to Saint to Dominion to Code. However, the Dominion has the best lever feel and modulation on the market. Not too shabby!


And then you put the metallic pads in the Dominions and the power steps up higher.

My riding mates (some of whom ride saints) were then scared by the braking power. I'm a great fan of the sintered metallic pads. But they do make some noise when wet.

For adapters, I've sorted them all by part number and application here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou-hayes/hayes/adapters
Any bike shop can order Hayes parts.

Hayes adapters fit every other brake. Because the 74mm Post-Mount standard and the 6 bolt hub standard were designed by Hayes back in 2000. But some other brake makers adapters are too shallow to fit anyone elses calipers.

Matchmaker clamps are still a few months away to bolt Shimano and Sram shifters to the levers.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Fairly confident my existing adapters I have for my guides will work.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

GRPABT1 said:


> Fairly confident my existing adapters I have for my guides will work.


I'm not sure about that. I posted this before but the Dominion is much larger than the Guide caliper.

I was using an old magura adapter which didn't work. The current magura adapters should work as the MT5 and mt7 are pretty large.









Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

I am still having the problem of wandering engagement point with my rear brake.
I have released some oil at the lever per the Hayes recommendation to prevent overfill.
It didn't help.
I am going to do another full bleed (my 3rd) and if the problem persists I might take it to some shop with a good bleed guy or just warranty it.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> I am still having the problem of wandering engagement point with my rear brake.
> I have released some oil at the lever per the Hayes recommendation to prevent overfill.
> It didn't help.
> I am going to do another full bleed (my 3rd) and if the problem persists I might take it to some shop with a good bleed guy or just warranty it.
> ...


If you can't fix it with a bleed then send it in for warranty. They'll get you sorted.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Just fit up my new Dominions from Dougal. Only done a few laps around the yard with the organic pads but so far they seem to everything they're talked up to be. The alignment screws are bloody genius.The lever feel is so light that it makes minute feathering so much easier (I may finally learn to wheelie like a pro haha). I'll have one ride with the organics before switching to the metal pads but thus far they already feel every bit as powerful as my guides did with metal pads. 

For future reference they seem to work fine with my ice-tech rotors with plenty of adjustment available. My existing adapters also worked, I'll get part numbers of them later.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Adapters I used are just Shimano one's, 180-203 post to post on the front and IS to 203 on the rear. Part numbers are as follows
SM-MA-F203P/PM
SM-MA-R203P/S


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## griffsterb (May 10, 2014)

Got my new Dominions fitted and hoses trimmed. I’ve only ever bled Shimanos which are insanely easy with the bleed nipple. I wanted to ask you guys - how do you bleed these style of brakes without getting DOT fluid everywhere? 

When I go to take the syringes off, fluid comes seeping out of the bleed port before I get the screw back in. Hayes video says to apply positive pressure on the syringes, but I’m wondering if that overfills the system?

Anyway, with a bit of a learning curve to the bleed, my second try has the brakes feeling pretty good, in the garage at least. Lever feel is superb, minimal sponginess. Some rotor rub, as again I think I’m overfilling the system which results in the pistons being pretty far out by default. 

Haven’t been able to bed them in yet, but I will post another update after I have some time on them.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

First test ride on the Dominions done, can say I still hate organic pads. I had a horrible resonant vibration from the rear under moderate to slow speed braking. Front was fine and the braking was perfectly consistent, but I just don't like the feel of organic pads, never have. Threw the metal pads in as soon as I got home and the noise and vibration from the rear was gone, just typical metal pad noise that I'm used to. The power with the organic pads was probably on par with my guides with metal pads but much less effort is needed, which is a little scary if you ham fistedly grab a bunch of brake. Keen to get out and try the metal pads now.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

GRPABT1 said:


> First test ride on the Dominions done, can say I still hate organic pads. I had a horrible resonant vibration from the rear under moderate to slow speed braking. Front was fine and the braking was perfectly consistent, but I just don't like the feel of organic pads, never have. Threw the metal pads in as soon as I got home and the noise and vibration from the rear was gone, just typical metal pad noise that I'm used to. The power with the organic pads was probably on par with my guides with metal pads but much less effort is needed, which is a little scary if you ham fistedly grab a bunch of brake. Keen to get out and try the metal pads now.


If the noise persists, your rear rotor is not true. My semi metallic pads are silent, so I'm fairly sure it is your rotor, anyway.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## griffsterb (May 10, 2014)

This is kinda dumb but does anyone have or know the best way to get a Hayes bleed block besides spending $55 for a new bleed kit? I contacted Hayes, they won’t hook me up. I suppose I could cut a block of wood to the right width, but it wouldn’t be as hard as plastic 🤔


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

griffsterb said:


> This is kinda dumb but does anyone have or know the best way to get a Hayes bleed block besides spending $55 for a new bleed kit? I contacted Hayes, they won't hook me up. I suppose I could cut a block of wood to the right width, but it wouldn't be as hard as plastic ?


Use your SRAM bleed block, or one from a generic kit (such as Jagwire). I used Magura, it fit better than SRAM. You will need to gently press in the pistons after bleeding regardless, I suggest a clean plastic tire lever. Watch the seals.

Regarding your question previously about bleeding, yes, I saw in the Hayes video that they suggest to apply light pressure before unscrewing the syringe. This will of course make some fluid leak out.

Other vendors such as SRAM suggest applying very light vacuum, which will prevent a leak, but if you overdo it, you'll suck in air when the syringe is removed. So I can see the merit in the idea to apply light pressure and just clean up the spill. A damp rag and then a lint free cloth with rubbing alcohol is the best way to clean.


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## griffsterb (May 10, 2014)

ColinL said:


> Use your SRAM bleed block, or one from a generic kit (such as Jagwire). I used Magura, it fit better than SRAM. You will need to gently press in the pistons after bleeding regardless, I suggest a clean plastic tire lever. Watch the seals.
> 
> Regarding your question previously about bleeding, yes, I saw in the Hayes video that they suggest to apply light pressure before unscrewing the syringe. This will of course make some fluid leak out.
> 
> Other vendors such as SRAM suggest applying very light vacuum, which will prevent a leak, but if you overdo it, you'll suck in air when the syringe is removed. So I can see the merit in the idea to apply light pressure and just clean up the spill. A damp rag and then a lint free cloth with rubbing alcohol is the best way to clean.


Thanks for the info. I have a generic bleed kit, and the block is a little bit narrower than the inside of the caliper. So, it doesn't push and hold the pistons back during the bleed. The result is that I have some rotor rub because the pistons are at rest sticking out a little bit, during the bleed.

You mentioned I need to push them back after the bleed: Do this with the syringes still attached? I'm thinking after the bleed with the syringes still attached I could press the pistons back in a bit to force that extra fluid out. Maybe I'll play around with it some more.

Edit: Played with them a little more, easy enough to just push the pistons back in before you take off the syringes. No more rub. Brakes feel rock solid.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

ColinL said:


> If the noise persists, your rear rotor is not true. My semi metallic pads are silent, so I'm fairly sure it is your rotor, anyway.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


You're probably right but the metal pads seem to have fixed it. I'll get some new rotors soon though.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Hmm, wonder if the Magura 20mm post mount adapter clears cause I can’t use the Hayes offset style (with separate bolts) 20mm post adapter on the rear of my frame, no clearance. The Magura is MUCH deeper than your typical Shimano adapter.


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## artnshel (Jul 10, 2004)

I just ordered a full set from Universal Cycles on Thursday. Then Friday I had a chance to ride Code brakes and I was underwhelmed. The Enduro Mag review said these are on par with the Codes plus a little extra power. I'm coming from Magura MT-5's that I've never loved although I know they are supposed to be the $hit. Mine haven't been consistent and are hard to bleed well. I'm running a 203 front rotor with Galfer semi metallic pads. If you are considering Magura definitely get the HC levers.
I want big power with modulation. I'm wondering if I'm going to get the front brake power I want from the dominions? 
If there weren't so many stories of Saints being inconsistent I'd be on those but maybe they would still be a better bet for the power I want. Can anyone compare the Hayes to Saints?


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Well I still have a resonant noise and vibration from the rear, but now just under hard braking. Guess I'll buy a new rotor. Also getting seriously loud pad rattle. The braking however is fantastic. Not sure how I'm going to address the pad rattle issue yet, or if I can just live with it. I'm wondering if a few well placed drops of plastidip on the outside edges of the pads would work but the heat concerns me.

Edit: I have some permatex rtv gasket maker silicone that's rated to 650 degrees F that I'll try if I can't live with the pad rattle.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

artnshel said:


> I just ordered a full set from Universal Cycles on Thursday. Then Friday I had a chance to ride Code brakes and I was underwhelmed. The Enduro Mag review said these are on par with the Codes plus a little extra power. I'm coming from Magura MT-5's that I've never loved although I know they are supposed to be the $hit. Mine haven't been consistent and are hard to bleed well. I'm running a 203 front rotor with Galfer semi metallic pads. If you are considering Magura definitely get the HC levers.
> I want big power with modulation. I'm wondering if I'm going to get the front brake power I want from the dominions?
> If there weren't so many stories of Saints being inconsistent I'd be on those but maybe they would still be a better bet for the power I want. Can anyone compare the Hayes to Saints?


I can only guess as I haven't ridden Dominions but I have ridden Saints and MT1893's. I think to get the power you're after you'll need to run these with Sintered pads so when they get hot they just grab more. That's kinda how my Saints were. At low speeds the power was just "meh", but on long descents at high speeds with sintered pads they have that anti-gravity effect lol. And fwiw I never had anything BUT consistency with Saints. Not a fan of the huge lever dead space before engagement but you get used to it. That sucks you were underwhelmed by Codes. Were they RSC's? Those brakes should be nice.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

OK so I had a spare 203mm ice-tech rotor that I removed ages ago as I know it was bent and couldn't stop it rubbing with my guides. Whacked it on the rear and surprisingly it doesn't rub and has stopped most of the resonant noise and vibration. Will still be buying a new one on pay day though.


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## artnshel (Jul 10, 2004)

farfromovin said:


> I can only guess as I haven't ridden Dominions but I have ridden Saints and MT1893's. I think to get the power you're after you'll need to run these with Sintered pads so when they get hot they just grab more. That's kinda how my Saints were. At low speeds the power was just "meh", but on long descents at high speeds with sintered pads they have that anti-gravity effect lol. And fwiw I never had anything BUT consistency with Saints. Not a fan of the huge lever dead space before engagement but you get used to it. That sucks you were underwhelmed by Codes. Were they RSC's? Those brakes should be nice.


I was on 3 sets of Codes yesterday at demo event and I think at least 2 were RSC's. One set needed to be bled but the others were fine and consistent. I want more than fine.
In the Shimano pad world I like metallic more than the resin or organic pads. The Enduro article preferred the sintered didn't state which was stronger in the dry. Dougal seemed say the metallic pads were stronger than the sintered.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

artnshel said:


> I was on 3 sets of Codes yesterday at demo event and I think at least 2 were RSC's. One set needed to be bled but the others were fine and consistent. I want more than fine.
> In the Shimano pad world I like metallic more than the resin or organic pads. The Enduro article preferred the sintered didn't state which was stronger in the dry. Dougal seemed say the metallic pads were stronger than the sintered.


Fortunately, the Dominion comes with both semi metallic and sintered pads, so you can try them both. Or just go with sintered and if the noise doesn't bother you, then don't worry about the semi metallic.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

OK swapped ANOTHER 203mm rotor onto the rear, not an ice tech just a cheap BBB stainless and after bedding in its incrementally better but the noise and vibration is still there. 3 different rotors and the fact the front is fine leads me to believe it's not the rotors at fault. It's also not the pads as both sets they came with have done it. So I'm going to hope they come good with a bleed from my LBS when I trim the hoses soon. For now I'll keep riding it as is and see if it gets worse or better.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

This noise is driving me insane!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GRPABT1 said:


> Well I still have a resonant noise and vibration from the rear, but now just under hard braking. Guess I'll buy a new rotor. Also getting seriously loud pad rattle. The braking however is fantastic. Not sure how I'm going to address the pad rattle issue yet, or if I can just live with it. I'm wondering if a few well placed drops of plastidip on the outside edges of the pads would work but the heat concerns me.
> 
> Edit: I have some permatex rtv gasket maker silicone that's rated to 650 degrees F that I'll try if I can't live with the pad rattle.


The pad spring should stop any rattle. Check it's installed correctly and hasn't been squashed.
Noise can be a variety of things. Contamination, a flexible brake mount or something loose.

What's the bike? Got any pics of your setup? Email is good.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

GRPABT1 said:


> This noise is driving me insane!


Bare with me here... what if you had somehow left a little bit of dot on your rear caliper and after a bit of riding it contaminated your organic pads. That caused the vibration on braking and contaminated your ice tech. Then you swapped to sintered and it was better but still there. The contamination on your ice tech is now also on your sintered pads. Then you swapped in cheap test rotor and it still persists.

My recommendation when you get a new rear rotor is to pull your pads, thoroughly clean the caliper and surrounding area, and install new sintered pads.

I mean, I'm just guessing at the problem here but I know one time I, err I mean a friend of mine, did something just like this...


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

farfromovin said:


> Bare with me here... what if you had somehow left a little bit of dot on your rear caliper and after a bit of riding it contaminated your organic pads. That caused the vibration on braking and contaminated your ice tech. Then you swapped to sintered and it was better but still there. The contamination on your ice tech is now also on your sintered pads. Then you swapped in cheap test rotor and it still persists.
> 
> My recommendation when you get a new rear rotor is to pull your pads, thoroughly clean the caliper and surrounding area, and install new sintered pads.
> 
> I mean, I'm just guessing at the problem here but I know one time I, err I mean a friend of mine, did something just like this...


That might be a vague possibility if I had bled the brakes at all yet. Currently still have long ass hoses as they come out of the box. No fluid has gone near them.

PM and email sent Dougal, thank you for helping.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

GRPABT1 said:


> That might be a vague possibility if I had bled the brakes at all yet. Currently still have long ass hoses as they come out of the box. No fluid has gone near them.
> 
> PM and email sent Dougal, thank you for helping.


Damn!

For Douglas or any Dominion owners how is the pad clearance on the rotor? Do these pistons roll back a lot like Shimano? I tend to put little warps in rotors from heat so if there's a decent amount of clearance it's no big deal but on tight brakes like Maguras, it becomes a big deal...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

farfromovin said:


> Damn!
> 
> For Douglas or any Dominion owners how is the pad clearance on the rotor? Do these pistons roll back a lot like Shimano? I tend to put little warps in rotors from heat so if there's a decent amount of clearance it's no big deal but on tight brakes like Maguras, it becomes a big deal...


Yes the pistons and pads roll back. Not as far as the original Hayes Mags and recent Primes, because these brakes run at higher hydraulic leverage. But enough that you can see daylight either side of a well aligned rotor as it spins.


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## griffsterb (May 10, 2014)

First ride today. Brakes are great. The lever just feels so good, it’s the best I’ve tried. Code RSCs have a good lever feel, as do the new TRPs, but the Hayes are tops. The free stroke is feather-light, the engagement is quick. Build quality is top notch, no lateral play in the pivot. 

The performance appears to be superb but I need a little more time on them to gauge. The stopping power is there, no question about that. I need to hit some longer, steeper descents to really put them through the wringer. They’re way better for practicing wheelies too, compared to shimanos. 

Also, I had some minor rotor rub after installing but it’s gone after the first ride. 

Still on the stock organic pads, as well.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

farfromovin said:


> Damn!
> 
> For Douglas or any Dominion owners how is the pad clearance on the rotor? Do these pistons roll back a lot like Shimano? I tend to put little warps in rotors from heat so if there's a decent amount of clearance it's no big deal but on tight brakes like Maguras, it becomes a big deal...


In my rotor swapping antics I've found that rotors I couldn't get to not rub on other brakes have cleared fine on the Dominions, and yet the adjustment level at the lever is still ample so it's not too much free stroke.

I think I've sorted my vibration issues, will report back tomorrow after a proper ride.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Hooray! Finally fixed my resonant vibration issue. 180mm ice-tech rotor on the back robbed off my XC bike completely fixed it. It seems these big, powerful brakes combined with a tall caliper adapter for a 203mm rotor act like a tuning fork for my carbon stays sending vibrations all through the bike that I could feel in feet and hands. At first I was very reluctant to reduce rotor size as I'm not a light guy and that kinda negates the point of upgrading but I can now confidently say there was no need to worry. In the past I've needed every bit of braking I could get from my Guide RSC's and 203mm rotors all round, never boiling the fluid like I have with Shimano XT's but pulling all the way to the bars and still accelerating. I just did a ride with a 5 minute downhill run and the Dominion's were absolutely faultless. The consistency is magic, never had more confidence inspiring braking than this. The bite point never changed and I didn't need to pull hard at all on the levers, and yet it was very controllable, not on/off like Shimano's at all. I could still lock up the rear easy enough if need be and overall the braking was much more effortless than my guides with 203's all round. I'm now a very happy customer.

I might try a new 203mm adapter on the rear some day just for experiment's sake but honestly I kinda like saving a few grams for no drawback 

Now I've sorted my issues I can get around to trimming the hoses and giving them a bleed with some Motul RBF600 fluid.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GRPABT1 said:


> Hooray! Finally fixed my resonant vibration issue. 180mm ice-tech rotor on the back robbed off my XC bike completely fixed it. It seems these big, powerful brakes combined with a tall caliper adapter for a 203mm rotor act like a tuning fork for my carbon stays se sing vibrations all through the bike that I could feel in feet and hands. At first I was very reluctant to reduce rotor size as I'm not a light guy and that kinda negates the point of upgrading but I can now confidently say there was no need to worry. In the past I've needed every bit of braking I could get from my Guide RSC's and 203mm rotors all round, never boiling the fluid like I have with Shimano XT's but pulling all the way to the bars and still accelerating. I just did a ride with a 5 minute downhill run and the Dominion's were absolutely faultless. The consistency is magic, never had more confidence inspiring braking than this. The bite point never changed and I didn't need to pull hard at all on the levers, and yet it was very controllable, not on/off like Shimano's at all. I could still lock up the rear easy enough if need be and overall the pranking was much more effortless than my guides with 203's all round. I'm now a very happy customer.
> 
> I might try a new 203mm adapter on the rear some day just for experiment's sake but honestly I kinda like saving a few grams for no drawback 
> 
> Now I've sorted my issues I can get around to trimming the hoses and giving them a bleed with some Motul RBF600 fluid.


Great to hear.:thumbsup:


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Installed Dominions today with D series rotors in 203/180 using Magura QM26 (+23 PM to PM) and QM40 (+20 PM to PM) adapters with sintered pads. I've bled Shimano, SRAM, Magura, and now Hayes and I gotta say I appreciate SRAM's Bleeding Edge for a mess free setup but there's something fun about Hayes twin port on the caliper. Got it rub free on the stand easy enough.

**edit** Did a 10 mile trail I'm very familiar with this afternoon with a nice 1k' descent mixed with flow and technical rock sections, best brake experience I've ever had. Saint power levels (or more) with Guide modulation (or better) with the lightest lever on the market. I've ridden Guide Ultimates, XTR Trails, Saints, Magura MT1893's, and these are hands down my favorite brake on the market. I'd prefer a different lever design as I think it sits a little far from the bar but it's something I'll happily get used to because of that light lever pull.


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## Bills (Jun 13, 2009)

farfromovin said:


> Installed Dominions today with D series rotors in 203/180 using Magura QM26 (+23 PM to PM) and QM40 (+20 PM to PM) adapters with sintered pads. I've bled Shimano, SRAM, Magura, and now Hayes and I gotta say I appreciate SRAM's Bleeding Edge for a mess free setup but there's something fun about Hayes twin port on the caliper. Got it rub free on the stand easy enough.
> 
> **edit** Did a 10 mile trail I'm very familiar with this afternoon with a nice 1k' descent mixed with flow and technical rock sections, best brake experience I've ever had. Saint power levels (or more) with Guide modulation (or better) with the lightest lever on the market. I've ridden Guide Ultimates, XTR Trails, Saints, Magura MT1893's, and these are hands down my favorite brake on the market. I'd prefer a different lever design as I think it sits a little far from the bar but it's something I'll happily get used to because of that light lever pull.
> 
> ...


I just ordered the same kit that you have, now waiting for them to arrive so I can install. Sounds like it is working great for you, hoping I have the same experience!


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Ugh, glazed my rotors/pads a bit last weekend. I was camping and doing an easy group family ride around the campground with my dog on a leash on my left hand dragged my rear brake down a long hill and started howling at the bottom. Figured it was just hot, understandable, but went on a real ride the following day and sure enough, the rear was howling immediately. Did some ridiculously steep chutes with sharp switchbacks, probably only 600’ of drop maybe but by the time I was at the bottom the f/r were both howling.
Rotors had a slight black sheen. Gave the rotors a nice scrub with 240 grit and lightly removed the top pad layer as well. Since the brakes were apart I replaced the fluid with some Motul RBF600! Time to bed the brakes in again. 
This is the sintered metallic pad. I expected the heat from dragging the rear but the front surprised me a little. Even though howling, they still had power but I could tell it was reduced. I used to always run organic or semi metallic pads as it’s always dry here in SoCal so I don’t have a ton of experience with sintered. I thought they didn’t glaze? Well, I should say, the pads didn’t look bad at all, just the black sheen on the rotors but I didn’t see that coming from the sintered setup.


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## artnshel (Jul 10, 2004)

farfromovin said:


> Ugh, glazed my rotors/pads a bit last weekend. I was camping and doing an easy group family ride around the campground with my dog on a leash on my left hand dragged my rear brake down a long hill and started howling at the bottom. Figured it was just hot, understandable, but went on a real ride the following day and sure enough, the rear was howling immediately. Did some ridiculously steep chutes with sharp switchbacks, probably only 600' of drop maybe but by the time I was at the bottom the f/r were both howling.
> Rotors had a slight black sheen. Gave the rotors a nice scrub with 240 grit and lightly removed the top pad layer as well. Since the brakes were apart I replaced the fluid with some Motul RBF600! Time to bed the brakes in again.
> This is the sintered metallic pad. I expected the heat from dragging the rear but the front surprised me a little. Even though howling, they still had power but I could tell it was reduced. I used to always run organic or semi metallic pads as it's always dry here in SoCal so I don't have a ton of experience with sintered. I thought they didn't glaze? Well, I should say, the pads didn't look bad at all, just the black sheen on the rotors but I didn't see that coming from the sintered setup.


I was about to install mine and then read this. Back to the hell of analysis paralysis.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

farfromovin said:


> Ugh, glazed my rotors/pads a bit last weekend. I was camping and doing an easy group family ride around the campground with my dog on a leash on my left hand dragged my rear brake down a long hill and started howling at the bottom. Figured it was just hot, understandable, but went on a real ride the following day and sure enough, the rear was howling immediately. Did some ridiculously steep chutes with sharp switchbacks, probably only 600' of drop maybe but by the time I was at the bottom the f/r were both howling.
> Rotors had a slight black sheen. Gave the rotors a nice scrub with 240 grit and lightly removed the top pad layer as well. Since the brakes were apart I replaced the fluid with some Motul RBF600! Time to bed the brakes in again.
> This is the sintered metallic pad. I expected the heat from dragging the rear but the front surprised me a little. Even though howling, they still had power but I could tell it was reduced. I used to always run organic or semi metallic pads as it's always dry here in SoCal so I don't have a ton of experience with sintered. I thought they didn't glaze? Well, I should say, the pads didn't look bad at all, just the black sheen on the rotors but I didn't see that coming from the sintered setup.


I think I slightly glazed my rear the other day, didn't bother touching it and just rode again today and it quietened down once it got some heat in it.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

GRPABT1 said:


> I think I slightly glazed my rear the other day, didn't bother touching it and just rode again today and it quietened down once it got some heat in it.


I sanded all the glaze off the rotors to a near new finish and took the top layer off my pads. Did some parking lot pulls till I got my power back and went on a normal ride with a nice 1k' descent. Started to get some howling again when the brakes were getting worked (not dragged), but checked the rotor wear pattern and they're not fully bedded yet.
So today after work I'm gonna give these guys a real workout. A nice 7 mile 3500' descent. High speed so lots of cooling opportunity with enough flat spots where I don't have to be on the brakes constantly like in short tech sections. That should sort out these pads and get everything playing nice again. Pads and rotors don't play nice unless they're bedded together properly, and sintered takes a little more time than semi metallic.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

artnshel said:


> I was about to install mine and then read this. Back to the hell of analysis paralysis.


I'm pretty sure I forced my brakes back into quiet submission. Gave them a great workout down a very large descent. Stopped every so often, waited for them to cool, poured water on the pads just for some more grinding action. They're powerful and for the most part quiet again now. The greatest thing is the rotor never rubbed! This route had my Saints with ice tech rotors rubbing for a good 5 minutes after finishing the descent.
If I were you I'd install them and ride the crap out of them.

I am kinda curious about the semi metallic pads though... I might get another set of D rotors and try them out.


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## griffsterb (May 10, 2014)

Brakes' performance is good but the levers don't have that rock solid feel when they engage. Just a tad bit squishy. Any techniques to bleeding or removing air that have worked for you guys? 

They have quite a bit of dead stroke too. When I first put them on I fiddled with the bleeding a lot - I only have experience bleeding Shimanos which are clean and easy. These are a bit harder to bleed imo. I might just do another full bleed on both, I suppose it possible that riding and breaking them in knocked some more air bubbles loose that I couldn't flush initially?


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

griffsterb said:


> Brakes' performance is good but the levers don't have that rock solid feel when they engage. Just a tad bit squishy. Any techniques to bleeding or removing air that have worked for you guys?
> 
> They have quite a bit of dead stroke too. When I first put them on I fiddled with the bleeding a lot - I only have experience bleeding Shimanos which are clean and easy. These are a bit harder to bleed imo. I might just do another full bleed on both, I suppose it possible that riding and breaking them in knocked some more air bubbles loose that I couldn't flush initially?


They definitely don't have that Magura solid feel, more akin to SRAM on the lever feel. On a good bleed you'll notice on the stand a couple mm's of lever pull starts to engage the brakes. That might be less apparent on the trail as there is little stopping power at that level of lever force. But, I wouldn't say mine have ever been squishy. You should be able to squeeze them to the bars and have a firm point where the levers don't go any further, like all brakes.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I have heard people say that you can't pull too much vacuum when using a dual syringe method or you could blow a seal in the lever/cylinder assembly. But it hasn't ever happened to me.

During initial setup I followed the Hayes procedure exactly. I got my rear brake to about 90% of what I thought it should feel like, and the front was softer, maybe only 75%. So I left the wheels on, left the pads in, and elevated the front of the bike in a stand. Then I rotated the levers so that the bleed valve was level and I put on a syringe filled with fluid and repeated the lever-side procedure.

I was able to pull quite a bit more air bubbles out of the system and then both levers were firm, for Dominions. By design, there is simply not as much lever effort with the Dominion as any other hydraulic brake I have ever used. So it feels soft compared to SRAM in particular, but man, they have a lot of power.

Also, if you have your lever reach adjusted close, you'll have a softer lever and more travel than if you have it all the way out. Every brake I've used with adjustable reach has this 'feature'. It's just the way the lever actuates the cylinder.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

griffsterb said:


> Brakes' performance is good but the levers don't have that rock solid feel when they engage. Just a tad bit squishy. Any techniques to bleeding or removing air that have worked for you guys?
> 
> They have quite a bit of dead stroke too. When I first put them on I fiddled with the bleeding a lot - I only have experience bleeding Shimanos which are clean and easy. These are a bit harder to bleed imo. I might just do another full bleed on both, I suppose it possible that riding and breaking them in knocked some more air bubbles loose that I couldn't flush initially?


They are a softer feel than previous Hayes. Simply because they run at higher hydraulic leverage. With a good bleed you've got firm engagement point but can squeeze the lever all the way to the grip if you want to. If you don't have firm engagement then you've likely got air inside.

Because of the power they've got, you don't apply much lever force riding.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Shimano rotors are 1.8mm thick. Is it still ok to use them with Dominion? I need Centerlock discs thats why I ask.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

arnea said:


> Shimano rotors are 1.8mm thick. Is it still ok to use them with Dominion? I need Centerlock discs thats why I ask.


You can NOT use the Freeza rotors because the aluminum fins interfere with the Hayes caliper. You CAN use Shimano's Ice Tech rotors.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

I think the best answer to the rotors would come from Hayes. On another recent thread about Magura’s, a Magura tech said absolutely do NOT use smaller rotors with their brakes. I know, this is about Hayes and not Magura but they both use 1.95mm thick rotors. Really just depends on how far out the pistons can safely retract on a worn down (1.6mm) non-Hayes rotor. I bet it’s fine, but I didn’t design the caliper lol.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Mine are at Hayes now, I couldn't get rid of the wandering bite point in the rear.
Hayes has had the brakes for more than 2 weeks now, but they have not touched them yet...

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

farfromovin said:


> I think the best answer to the rotors would come from Hayes.


I asked "Can I use Shimano XT rotors with Dominion? I need Centerlock rotors."

and [email protected] gave this answer:

"If you use a different rotor than the hayes one* you will lose your warranty because we never tested dominion with
a shimano rotor , so the answer is No .

You can use a IS / centerlock adapter to fix the hayes rotor on your shimano hubs ,"


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

arnea said:


> I asked "Can I use Shimano XT rotors with Dominion? I need Centerlock rotors."
> 
> and [email protected] gave this answer:
> 
> ...


and Im betting their are PLENTY out there on all sorts of rotors other than hayes..


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

arnea said:


> I asked "Can I use Shimano XT rotors with Dominion? I need Centerlock rotors."
> 
> and [email protected] gave this answer:
> 
> ...


I think that would be enough to make me cross Hayes off my list. I've been running my Dominions for about 250 miles, and I'm beginning to think I shouldn't have been to eager to jump on their bandwagon.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

farfromovin said:


> I think the best answer to the rotors would come from Hayes. On another recent thread about Magura's, a Magura tech said absolutely do NOT use smaller rotors with their brakes. *I know, this is about Hayes and not Magura but they both use 1.95mm thick rotors.* Really just depends on how far out the pistons can safely retract on a worn down (1.6mm) non-Hayes rotor. I bet it's fine, but I didn't design the caliper lol.


Huh, I didn't realize that the Hayes D-series rotors were 1.95mm. I've used Magura brakes in the past and am familiar with their 1.95mm thick rotors.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

ColinL said:


> Huh, I didn't realize that the Hayes D-series rotors were 1.95mm. I've used Magura brakes in the past and am familiar with their 1.95mm thick rotors.


Yup, Hayes and Magura 1.95, Shimano 1.8, SRAM 1.7. Then subtract .2 for each for the minimum thickness. Besides these Dominions, my next favorite brake setup was Saints with SRAM rotors cause the narrower rotor gave the required clearance to allow the Shimano rotor to not rub when warm. 
Magura's almost always rub, Shimano rub when hot, Sram and Dominions just don't rub (based off my experiences with M9020, M820, Guides, MT7's, and Dominions). I prefer the Dominion power, modulation, and thick rotors.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

RustyIron said:


> I think that would be enough to make me cross Hayes off my list. I've been running my Dominions for about 250 miles, and I'm beginning to think I shouldn't have been to eager to jump on their bandwagon.


I don't see the problem using Hayes rotors with Centerlock adapters on Centerlock hubs. That's what I do. Using another manufacturer's rotor is problematic unless you carefully research and match the width of the brake rack, diameter, and rotor thickness.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

farfromovin said:


> Yup, Hayes and Magura 1.95, Shimano 1.8, SRAM 1.7. Then subtract .2 for each for the minimum thickness. Besides these Dominions, my next favorite brake setup was Saints with SRAM rotors cause the narrower rotor gave the required clearance to allow the Shimano rotor to not rub when warm.
> Magura's almost always rub, Shimano rub when hot, Sram and Dominions just don't rub (based off my experiences with M9020, M820, Guides, MT7's, and Dominions). I prefer the Dominion power, modulation, and thick rotors.


If your rotors rub when warm, you possibly have too much fluid in the system.

Often with a new brake (or even new pads) it's difficult to get it all running drag free on the stand. After a couple of rides they behave normally and are easy to realign drag free.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RustyIron said:


> I think that would be enough to make me cross Hayes off my list. I've been running my Dominions for about 250 miles, and I'm beginning to think I shouldn't have been to eager to jump on their bandwagon.


The question is, what warranty issue are you going to have that is pad/rotor related?

If you had a 3rd party rotor explode and gark up the caliper, extremely rare, that wouldn't be covered under warranty. 
But I can't see them stiffing you on a caliper or lever leak.

Warranty serves two purposes:
1. Ensure the customer gets what they paid for.
2. Fast feedback to the manufacturer for any product issues.

The Hayes warranty guys are very good and if there is any issue, they want to know about it.


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## yamaha267 (Aug 29, 2010)

RustyIron said:


> I think that would be enough to make me cross Hayes off my list. I've been running my Dominions for about 250 miles, and I'm beginning to think I shouldn't have been to eager to jump on their bandwagon.


Let me know if you want to sell them.... i would be interested....


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

After sending my Dominions to Hayes warranty with the wandering bite point I have received a new pair.
They said they couldn't find what was wrong with them /which could also mean they didn't find anything wrong/ anyway, the new set works just like it should, no more stiffening lever under high braking. 
However, the rear brake lever throw is a little longer compared to the front.

I mounted the new Dominions thinking I would try them how they come before I cut the hoses. To my surprise they were already cut to the right length. /Matching my old set/ Thanks Hayes!

I have arthritis in my right index finger and was sometimes having problem to completely lock my xtr/180mm ice tech.
Dominions do not require as much force to stop. 
I also like the modulation. How it has been mentioned before, the lever doesn't stop abruptly, it has a nice soft control at the end, but it doesn't feel spongy.

I would compare it to my trusty old Audi, the brake modulation has a soft, light feel, where the power comes gently but surly with a lot of control.
They are very intuitive, the adjustment period is short.



Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

jazzanova said:


> After sending my Dominions to Hayes warranty with the wandering bite point I have received a new pair.
> They said they couldn't find what was wrong with them /which could also mean they didn't find anything wrong/ anyway, the new set works just like it should, no more stiffening lever under high braking.
> However, the rear brake lever throw is a little longer compared to the front.
> 
> ...


Always nice to see good customer service.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> Always nice to see good customer service.


I completely agree.

Also, my rear lever is slightly softer than front. I am pretty confident they are equally well bled. I speculate this is due to the significantly longer length of tubing, and the associated flex when pushing hydraulic fluid.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I completely agree.
> 
> Also, my rear lever is slightly softer than front. I am pretty confident they are equally well bled. I speculate this is due to the significantly longer length of tubing, and the associated flex when pushing hydraulic fluid.


My thoughts as well.

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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

It looks like Pinkbike likes them:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinkbike-awards-component-of-the-year-winner.html


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> It looks like Pinkbike likes them:
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinkbike-awards-component-of-the-year-winner.html


well deserved!

I did several costly things this year...
Guide RSC -> Dominion A4
Spank Oozy wheels -> Bontrager Line 30 Pro (AL to carbon and 6 deg engagement to 3.3)
Manitou Mattoc Pro -> MRP Ribbon Air fork

Dominion was the cheapest and by far the most impactful.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

ColinL said:


> well deserved!
> 
> I did several costly things this year...
> Guide RSC -> Dominion A4
> ...


Well said! I just had my first ride in about 6 weeks and tried the semi-metallic pads for the first time on Dominions. Worked beautiful; power, modulation, quiet!
I've swapped a lot of expensive parts this year, wish I had tried Dominions before Guides, M9020, Saints, & MT7's.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

jazzanova said:


> After sending my Dominions to Hayes warranty with the wandering bite point I have received a new pair.
> They said they couldn't find what was wrong with them /which could also mean they didn't find anything wrong/ anyway, the new set works just like it should, no more stiffening lever under high braking.
> However, the rear brake lever throw is a little longer compared to the front.
> 
> ...


I am back dealing with the soft rear lever and slight wandering bite point.

After few rides with the 2nd set of Dominions (1st one was sent to Hayes for a warranty) I took the bike to my LBS to check a bleed the rear, since I wasn't fully satisfied with the feel.
Buddy of mine runs Dominions and they felt much firmer and the stroke was also shorter by a significant amount.
So I took mine to the same shop to make them the same 
Anyhow, they did a great job, much better feel after the bleed. Now, to new set of brakes had the houses cut and were blead originally by Hayes.

After the lbs had worked on them they finally felt perfect. Another 5-6 rides an the rear started to feel softer and the stroke became long again.
Not sure what is happening here, my second set and they don't work as they should, and it seems I am the only one with this issue here...
I will take them back to the shop and see if they can fix it.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

jazzanova said:


> I am back dealing with the soft rear lever and slight wandering bite point.
> 
> After few rides with the 2nd set of Dominions (1st one was sent to Hayes for a warranty) I took the bike to my LBS to check a bleed the rear, since I wasn't fully satisfied with the feel.
> Buddy of mine runs Dominions and they felt much firmer and the stroke was also shorter by a significant amount.
> ...


Sounds like it could be a nicked seal, maybe in the master cylinder in the lever.

If you pull the lever so it feels firm, hold it there with constant pressure and then the lever starts moving towards the bars I think it'll be a seal.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> I am back dealing with the soft rear lever and slight wandering bite point.
> 
> After few rides with the 2nd set of Dominions (1st one was sent to Hayes for a warranty) I took the bike to my LBS to check a bleed the rear, since I wasn't fully satisfied with the feel.
> Buddy of mine runs Dominions and they felt much firmer and the stroke was also shorter by a significant amount.
> ...


If a brake is setup with the seals not completely retracted/relaxed (i.e. the pistons pumped out a little) then the lever stroke feels artificially short.
After a few good rides the pads wear a little, piston stroke is returned with seals fully retracting/relaxing and lever stroke returns to full.

The above sounds like exactly your issue. It's not wandering bite-point, but rather them being setup in a transient state.

A shop playing with the brakes would result in exactly the same situation again as the pistons go from being pumped out a little to full retraction as the seals settle and pads bed in.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> If a brake is setup with the seals not completely retracted/relaxed (i.e. the pistons pumped out a little) then the lever stroke feels artificially short.
> After a few good rides the pads wear a little, piston stroke is returned with seals fully retracting/relaxing and lever stroke returns to full.
> 
> The above sounds like exactly your issue. It's not wandering bite-point, but rather them being setup in a transient state.
> ...


It might be the case.
However, I was hoping the brakes would be set up properly at the first place, considering Hayes cut the hoses and did the bleeding for me and yet, the rear lever was soft and stroke long...

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> If a brake is setup with the seals not completely retracted/relaxed (i.e. the pistons pumped out a little) then the lever stroke feels artificially short.
> After a few good rides the pads wear a little, piston stroke is returned with seals fully retracting/relaxing and lever stroke returns to full.
> 
> The above sounds like exactly your issue. It's not wandering bite-point, but rather them being setup in a transient state.
> ...


Is there a way how to make the stroke short without pistons being pump out in order to be closer to the rotor?

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> It might be the case.
> However, I was hoping the brakes would be set up properly at the first place, considering Hayes cut the hoses and did the bleeding for me and yet, the rear lever was soft and stroke long...
> 
> Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk





jazzanova said:


> Is there a way how to make the stroke short without pistons being pump out in order to be closer to the rotor?
> 
> Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


It sounds like the brakes were set up properly. The longer throw is what they do. The shorter throw is temporary. Shorter throw means less pad retraction and dragging pads. 
The rear brake always feels softer to squeeze than the front as the rear hose is about twice as long so takes twice as much fluid expansion. This is the same for all brakes.

There is a secondary adjuster. I haven't tried it. Call Hayes before you do.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> It sounds like the brakes were set up properly. The longer throw is what they do. The shorter throw is temporary. Shorter throw means less pad retraction and dragging pads.
> The rear brake always feels softer to squeeze than the front as the rear hose is about twice as long so takes twice as much fluid expansion. This is the same for all brakes.
> 
> There is a secondary adjuster. I haven't tried it. Call Hayes before you do.


I was hoping for a shorter throw with these brakes, most of the reviews mention the short dead stroke, which isn't the case at the moment with my rear brake.
I also have the dead stroke adjuster set to the shortest.
I will make sure the shop won't set them up with the pads retracted.
If they cannot be set up with a shorter stroke, I might have to search for a different brakes.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

jazzanova said:


> I was hoping for a shorter throw with these brakes, most of the reviews mention the short dead stroke, which isn't the case at the moment with my rear brake.
> I also have the dead stroke adjuster set to the shortest.
> I will make sure the shop won't set them up with the pads retracted.
> If they cannot be set up with a shorter stroke, I might have to search for a different brakes.
> ...


Throw is very short until the pads touch, but there is no power there. Throw before you throw yourself over the bars is very long. Longer than most brakes. The lever distance between the pads touching and you being thrown over the bars is where the modulation comes into play. It seems like you are extremely particular in how you like your lever feel. If that's the case, I suggest you buy a bleed kit and some motul rbf 600 and bleed them yourself. I'm pretty sensitive to brake differences as well and mine are damn good.
What I do is set the lever positions to where the "throw you over the bars spot" is even between the two.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

Just purchased a set of dominions. I am putting a fat bike together and these will be my main halting devices. Would you folks use adapters or go with different rotors. My frame and fork use 180 front and 160 rear and the dominion rotors are just in 203 or 180. I also saw that one person had a rear bite point that comes on later than the front, mine also has this and I was noticing that the rear brake pads release more than the fronts. With those little red pad spacers you can tell the space between the brake pads is a good bit more in the rear than in the front when the levers aren't touched. I haven't even installed them yet. Both levers feel the same once both pads touch the spacers in front and back so I believe they are both bled well.


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## skyval (May 2, 2006)

This has probably been answered, but do we have confirmation the Shimano brake adaptors work; specifically PM 180 to 203 front and rear?? Thanks, sorry if this has already been discussed... 


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

jazzanova said:


> I was hoping for a shorter throw with these brakes, most of the reviews mention the short dead stroke, which isn't the case at the moment with my rear brake.
> I also have the dead stroke adjuster set to the shortest.
> I will make sure the shop won't set them up with the pads retracted.
> If they cannot be set up with a shorter stroke, I might have to search for a different brakes.
> ...


what rotors are you using?


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

ColinL said:


> what rotors are you using?


Hayes D series 6 bolt 180mm

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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Am considering some Dominion's for this winters build.
(also looking at Cura4 and MT7)

I tend to run my brakes close to the bar.
Just wondering with the longer throw, if this will be an issue.
For reference have Tech3V4's. 6'2" @ 225.
Bite adjust is fully in, and the reach set about parallel and under full power I'm almost touching the grip.

Also have some XO Trails on another bike. Nice brakes, good modulation and decent power with a fresh bleed. However they are a pain to get a good bleed, never stay fresh for long, and then you end up with a sponge with wondering bite point. 

With the Hopes, I get easy bleed, great modulation, solid bite-point but... I want more ultimate power. The bike they are on is a 26" with 203/180. I'm building a 29'r so with the added mechanical advantage of the bigger wheel, I feel the Hopes will be underpowered, so instead of another set, am looking at alternates. Yes I have played with pads, currently Uber RaceMatrix.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Well, given that the levers are quite easily adjusted, one of us could certainly test this for you. Can you measure the reach of your existing levers (I assume that's the preferred bar-to-lever distance)? Then we can just click until that reach is set, and pull the levers and measure.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

ColinL

That would be appreciated.
I will check and measure the throw numbers in the next day or so when I get access to their secure winter storage.

Cheers!

michael


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## maimed02 (Jul 25, 2014)

Anyone in the market for a trade for MT7s purchased Nov 18? I'm keen to try out the hayes. 
I've had Hope V4s, Shimano Saints, Sram guides, codes and guide lever to code caliper and my wife has TRP quadiems. Looking to continue my around the world brake experience


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

maimed02 said:


> Anyone in the market for a trade for MT7s purchased Nov 18? I'm keen to try out the hayes.
> I've had Hope V4s, Shimano Saints, Sram guides, codes and guide lever to code caliper and my wife has TRP quadiems. Looking to continue my around the world brake experience


Which one is your favorite so far?

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## maimed02 (Jul 25, 2014)

jazzanova said:


> Which one is your favorite so far?
> 
> Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


Magura: amazing power, great modulation, bleeding procedure is really easy. Cons is that they are very finicky to set up in terms of rotor alignment.

Hope: very nice lever feel, linear modulation is really good. I really like how they bite point control just changes the angle of the lever to result in quicker engagement - bpc that actually works. Cons: would like a bit more power, I hated bleeding these with a passion.

Saints: on/off... didnt really like these to be honest.

Trp: lever feel and modulation seems fantastic!! Bleeding is easy. I cant attest to power as I cant ride my wifes bike (she is almost half my weight and 5'6' vs 6'4').

Guides: underwhelming in almost every way.

Codes: feel pretty good in terms of modulation and lever feel. Cons: I found it very hard to retract the pistons when bleeding and the solid lever didnt stick around for long.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Are the brake levers flippable?

I can find fronts at some shops, and rears at others, but nobody has both until 2nd week of March. (German shops = pricing of 310.00 a pair )

If I grab 2 rears, will I be good, or do they require a separate left and right?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mykel said:


> Are the brake levers flippable?
> 
> I can find fronts at some shops, and rears at others, but nobody has both until 2nd week of March. (German shops = pricing of 310.00 a pair )
> 
> If I grab 2 rears, will I be good, or do they require a separate left and right?


Yes. Flippable. The only difference between front and rear is the hose length.

I have them in stock.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Yes. Flippable. The only difference between front and rear is the hose length.
> 
> I have them in stock.


Yes and they look great both ways not like some other flippers.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

maimed02 said:


> Anyone in the market for a trade for MT7s purchased Nov 18? I'm keen to try out the hayes.
> I've had Hope V4s, Shimano Saints, Sram guides, codes and guide lever to code caliper and my wife has TRP quadiems. Looking to continue my around the world brake experience


Ha, you sound like me bro... the train stops here my friend.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Well finally decided on brakes and pulled the trigger earlier tonight.

Contenders were:
4. Magura - MT7 - Fragile - too many reports of broken bits.
3. Formula Cura 4 - lever shape does not allow very close to bar setup
2. Hope T3V4 - Have on a 26" and like a lot. But on a will be at limits of power on a 29r Hope make a bigger 225 rotor, but not a mount to fit. TRP 223 is not out yet, Trickstuff is backordered and is 100 Euro for their 223. 

So...
1. Hayes Dominion - not keen on the res below the MC but we will see. Everything else seems dialed. Running with 203/180 D7 rotors, +20mm PM-PM mount and PM-PM +23mm mount

...and to make life a lot easier on the Hope T3V4's a Hayes rotor alignment tool.


So, if all goes well, in about a month or so I will have the bike built and should be able to give them a shakedown.

Thank-you all for your dialog and help.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Just another shoutout for these underrated brakes. I rode a trail that was probably at my max level for tech, without the recent 2’ deep ruts gouged out by a storm. I crawled down this thing at probably a half mile an hour to keep from going over the bars for about a 800-1000’ descent I’m guessing.
I’m a big guy and the 203/180 rotors with semi-metallics performed flawless. No heat marks, no fade, rotors still true as can be. Im impressed.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Curiosity got the better of me. Got a set on the way. Wanted to see how these compare against MT7s. 

The plan is to use them with Magura rotors since they are about the same thickness and I already have them on hand. Going to have to pick up some DOT fluid though. 

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Installed mine today - all I need to do is trim the hoses and I'll be ready to go.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Does anyone know the thickness of the bleed block for these?

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

compengr said:


> Does anyone know the thickness of the bleed block for these?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I can measure when i get home

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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Harold said:


> I can measure when i get home
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Thank you. Did you buy the bleed kit or did yours come with the brakes?

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

compengr said:


> Thank you. Did you buy the bleed kit or did yours come with the brakes?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Blocks come with the brakes

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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Harold said:


> Blocks come with the brakes
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Got it. No need to measure. I was going by the comments made earlier in the thread, which made it sound like no bleed blocks were included.

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

First ride on the Dominions, and I love them. Didn't even push them all that hard from a power standpoint, but did lots of light braking. They feel incredible.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

My Dominions are still working great, so happy with them.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I love mine as well. My MTB sat for a solid 60 days and no issues whatsoever coming back to life once winter finally ended.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I love mine as well. My MTB sat for a solid 60 days and no issues whatsoever coming back to life once winter finally ended.


My biggest complaint with Shimano brakes is contamination (or whatever causes the brakes to act like they are contaminated) from sitting idle. I have forgotten about this a couple of times. Made for some exciting early season rides.

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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Found some DOT 5.1 at Napa for cheap. Brakes should be here by the weekend.









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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Thinking I was the only one here having some issues with the Dominions, this review from mtbr basically mirrors my experience:

"The first issue I had with these brakes was consistency of lever modulation. Perhaps it was due to the high elevation and steep rocky descents in Peru and Ecuador, or the huge vertical loss over a short span of riding, but after about 2-3 days the lever would pull closer to the bar. I found that resetting the pistons and re-aligning the caliper fixed this, but that fix would only last a couple days.

Same goes for a bleed and new pads, which would return lever modulation to par, but then fade after 4-5 days of hard riding. Thus in the two months of testing these brakes, I bled them four times, and went through three sets of brake pads, front and rear. I also roached the 180mm rear rotor and ended up replacing it with a 200mm rotor."

Full review:
https://reviews.mtbr.com/hayes-dominion-a4-brakes-review

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Thinking I was the only one here having some issues with the Dominions, this review from mtbr basically mirrors my experience:
> 
> "The first issue I had with these brakes was consistency of lever modulation. Perhaps it was due to the high elevation and steep rocky descents in Peru and Ecuador, or the huge vertical loss over a short span of riding, but after about 2-3 days the lever would pull closer to the bar. I found that resetting the pistons and re-aligning the caliper fixed this, but that fix would only last a couple days.
> 
> ...


It appears he's also trying to keep the brake in a shorter lever throw than it operates. Which isn't going to work as the brake will keep adjusting to normal lever throw as the pads wear. You're continually fighting what the brake is designed to do. Which is run X amount of lever throw from Y amount of pad retraction.

That's quite the test, he's done 53km of vertical descent. 1.5x what I did in total the summer before last on my prototypes. I wore two sets of semi-metallic pads in that time. But could have got more life from them.

Not sure why he's bleeding them 4x though.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Another review of the Dominions

https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/hayes-dominion-4-pot-brakes.4614/#post-63713


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> It appears he's also trying to keep the brake in a shorter lever throw than it operates. Which isn't going to work as the brake will keep adjusting to normal lever throw as the pads wear. You're continually fighting what the brake is designed to do. Which is run X amount of lever throw from Y amount of pad retraction.
> 
> That's quite the test, he's done 53km of vertical descent. 1.5x what I did in total the summer before last on my prototypes. I wore two sets of semi-metallic pads in that time. But could have got more life from them.
> 
> Not sure why he's bleeding them 4x though.


With me, it isn't the case.
I don't have it set with the shortest throw, no fiddling with the pads to have them as close as they can be to the rotor.
Most of my descends are under 5min.
Under heavy braking, we are talking very steep stuff, the lever engages later and comes almost to the bars. This happens very quickly, maybe after 1min of braking.
It gets worse with time. After about 6-7 rides the throw gets pretty long and I need to set the lever further from the bars in order for it to not touch the bars.

Not sure if this could be the case, but I like the levers to be close to bars, I don't have big hands... I wonder if the brakes perform differently based on how far from the bars are...

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> After about 6-7 rides the throw gets pretty long and I need to set the lever further from the bars in order for it to not touch the bars.


Then what happens? Does it stay at that engagement point?


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Then what happens? Does it stay at that engagement point?


It moves. When released it goes back and starts engaging where before.
But. After few rides the lever throw gets longer and it stays that way.
I even tried a new rotor with new pads,which helped for a couple of rides until another demending descent.
The same thing, 
Strange. This is a warranty replacement and it does exactly the same thing as my first set. /Only the rear brake/
Also, buddy of mine owns dominions and they feel much better. Much firmer lever feel and short stroke.
The both were set up by the same mechanic as mine /after I gave up after 4th bleeding/ 
The only difference seems to be his are set much further from the bars...
Still, my stroke is about 2x as long...

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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

jazzanova said:


> It moves. When released it goes back and starts engaging where before.
> But. After few rides the lever throw gets longer and it stays that way.
> I even tried a new rotor with new pads,which helped for a couple of rides until another demending descent.
> The same thing,
> ...


Hmm...did the mechanic check tab alignment? This kind of sounds like the pads aren't sitting flat on the rotor. This would cause longer lever travel, and softer engagement point.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> It moves. When released it goes back and starts engaging where before.
> But. After few rides the lever throw gets longer and it stays that way.
> I even tried a new rotor with new pads,which helped for a couple of rides until another demending descent.
> The same thing,
> ...


Sounds to me like a bleed issue.
If a brake is low on fluid, the lever return can pull the pistons back further.
If a brake has too much fluid, the lever will pump up as it gets hot.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

compengr said:


> Hmm...did the mechanic check tab alignment? This kind of sounds like the pads aren't sitting flat on the rotor. This would cause longer lever travel, and softer engagement point.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Not sure. I will check it out.

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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Sounds to me like a bleed issue.
> If a brake is low on fluid, the lever return can pull the pistons back further.
> If a brake has too much fluid, the lever will pump up as it gets hot.


It makes sense.
I used to have a bit of both. Maybe after one of my bleeds I overfilled it and had the pumping issue. Now it's the opposite.
Anyway, can it change with the pads getting thinner?

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> It makes sense.
> I used to have a bit of both. Maybe after one of my bleeds I overfilled it and had the pumping issue. Now it's the opposite.
> Anyway, can it change with the pads getting thinner?
> 
> Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


Yes it can. A bleed with slightly low fluid can feel fine until the pads wear. Then it doesn't have enough fluid.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Sounds to me like a bleed issue.
> If a brake is low on fluid, the lever return can pull the pistons back further.
> If a brake has too much fluid, the lever will pump up as it gets hot.


I agree. I had an imperfect bleed on my front brake for 2 rides. It was clearly behaving differently from the rear.

I bled the front again and it's been fine for about 200 hours of riding. Including a total hiatus for 60 days this winter - we had a really rough one and I didn't ride anything but my trainer a long while.

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I definitely saw the imperfect bleed causing troubles when I was setting mine up. I half-assed the bleed the first time around (after trimming the hoses) and got absolutely horrible behavior out of the brakes. 

Then I stepped back, redid the bleed (properly this time) and they've been solid and dare I say perfectly consistent.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Sounds to me like a bleed issue.
> If a brake is low on fluid, the lever return can pull the pistons back further.
> If a brake has too much fluid, the lever will pump up as it gets hot.


jazzanova has second set of brakes, bleed multiple times and it's always rear brake that causes trouble.



compengr said:


> Hmm...did the mechanic check tab alignment? This kind of sounds like the pads aren't sitting flat on the rotor. This would cause longer lever travel, and softer engagement point.


This made me think - perhaps it is bike not the brake? One option is that the brake caliper mounting is not straight but little bit tilted as compengr suggested. Or perhaps the hose is routed in a such way that is pinched or kinked? If it is FS bike then perhaps during extreme rear wheel movement the hose is stretched too much?

Is the rear brake hose internally mounted?


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I cannot find the new Hayes PM160-PM180 adapter anywhere in Europe in stock. But there is another adapter

https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=15528;menu=1000,2,15,117;mid[270]=1

It says "for forks" but can I use it on the rear brake as well? What adapters clear the caliper? This is my selection:

https://www.bike24.com/1.php?conten...0,2,15,117;pgc[18323]=18337;pgc[146]=0;page=2
https://www.bike24.com/1.php?conten...0,2,15,117;pgc[18323]=18337;pgc[146]=0;page=2
https://www.bike24.com/1.php?conten...0,2,15,117;pgc[18323]=18337;pgc[146]=0;page=2
https://www.bike24.com/1.php?conten...0,2,15,117;pgc[18323]=18337;pgc[146]=0;page=1
https://www.bike24.com/1.php?conten...0,2,15,117;pgc[18323]=18337;pgc[146]=0;page=1


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

arnea said:


> I cannot find the new Hayes PM160-PM180 adapter anywhere in Europe in stock. But there is another adapter
> 
> https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=15528;menu=1000,2,15,117;mid[270]=1
> 
> ...


Front or back doesn't matter, a +20 adapter is just that. FWIW, Hope makes some very good adapters. That CNC one in the middle looks good too.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

The other issue the MTBR rider probably faced is simply cooking the fluid. It's harder to do with DOT than mineral, but still very possible that during descents of that kind of length and intensity that the fluid is done and needs to be properly, entirely flushed and replaced.

I saw a lot of pics from folks last summer riding the Breck Epic on XC racing rigs with nowhere near enough brakes who had fluid - whether DOT or mineral oil - that was as black as used motor oil. And the Andes mountains are another level or two above Colorado.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

arnea said:


> jazzanova has second set of brakes, bleed multiple times and it's always rear brake that causes trouble.
> 
> This made me think - perhaps it is bike not the brake? One option is that the brake caliper mounting is not straight but little bit tilted as compengr suggested. Or perhaps the hose is routed in a such way that is pinched or kinked? If it is FS bike then perhaps during extreme rear wheel movement the hose is stretched too much?
> 
> Is the rear brake hose internally mounted?


Nomad 3. No internal routing.
The second set was cut and bled by Hayes.
After few rides the rear started to misbehave.
My LBS bled this set 2x, each time the same thing happened. The brakes were good for maybe 5-8 rides.
The last time I swapped the rotors and pads. It was good for 5 rides. Yesterday got the lever to touch the bars after a 3min DH. Nothing extreme, it wasn't constant braking. What baffles me is that Ive had the exact same problem on 2 difgerent sets...
What seems to trigger it is some hard braking. After that even on easier trail it kicks in pretty fast, maybe after 1min on descend.
And BTW, I am only 140lbs... 180mm rotors.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I looked at the pictures of the Nomad. The brake line routing seemed to be well thought out, so my theory does not hold probably. It would be interesting to see how this rear brake behaves on some other bike.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

jazzanova said:


> Nomad 3. No internal routing.
> The second set was cut and bled by Hayes.
> After few rides the rear started to misbehave.
> My LBS bled this set 2x, each time the same thing happened. The brakes were good for maybe 5-8 rides.
> ...


I assume you're running sintered pads? Not that I think it makes much difference but most folks recommend sintered for high heat scenarios. For me personally it hasn't mattered. Sounds like you're doing some serious descents but something seems off here. I'm almost twice your weight at 260 and I can't find a single fault on these brakes with 203/180 rotors. I only descend about 1500' at a given time though (my max was 3k' once). I do use Motul RBF600 fluid (from your local motorcycle shop or amazon) so it's a little better with heat than regular 5.1. I set my brakes so if I'm really using them hard it's not that far from the bars, it's more comfortable for me personally. My bite point is extremely consistent. 
I'd be curious if you swap your calipers f/r if the problem follows. If the problem stays, then swap levers. If the problem still stays then these brakes just can't handle your descents. But, it's quicker and easier to just flush with some good Motul fluid first. I'm sure it goes without saying, but make sure these are always fully bled following the steps in Hayes video anytime the system is opened.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

arnea said:


> I cannot find the new Hayes PM160-PM180 adapter anywhere in Europe in stock. But there is another adapter
> 
> https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=15528;menu=1000,2,15,117;mid[270]=1
> 
> ...


I've got them all listed in here with sizes, identification and front/rear usage: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou-hayes/hayes/adapters


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Nomad 3. No internal routing.
> The second set was cut and bled by Hayes.
> After few rides the rear started to misbehave.
> My LBS bled this set 2x, each time the same thing happened. The brakes were good for maybe 5-8 rides.
> ...


For the lever to come in to the bar, the pistons and pads are being pushed or sucked back enough that it's taking a full lever throw to return them to the rotor.

I don't know what's doing it. But that's the only possibility. Could you do a DH run that would normally give you lever to the bar, then stop without using the back brake and check it out?


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

A quick update, and a data point for jazzanova. Got my set last night. Mounted them up without cutting lines to see how they feel. Front was fine, but the rear lever went almost to the bar. A quick bleed fixed it. It feels no different than the front now.

Also, the deadband on these seems to be similar to Shimano, meaning there is a fair bit. if someone is expecting it to be short, they will be disappointed. The upside is plenty of pad clearance, even with new pads. 

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## Riding Blind (Jan 8, 2018)

I went with a set of these brakes on the new bike I just finished putting together (Yeti SB150). For the life of me, I'm not able to get the rotors to not rub. I have followed the directions and went 1/4 turn and spinning the wheel; have also pressed on the pads to make sure the pistons are fully retracted. Does anyone have any ideas as to what would cause this?


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Riding Blind said:


> I went with a set of these brakes on the new bike I just finished putting together (Yeti SB150). For the life of me, I'm not able to get the rotors to not rub. I have followed the directions and went 1/4 turn and spinning the wheel; have also pressed on the pads to make sure the pistons are fully retracted. Does anyone have any ideas as to what would cause this?


Are they rubbing with the bike in the stand or do you hear them when out riding?

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Riding Blind said:


> I went with a set of these brakes on the new bike I just finished putting together (Yeti SB150). For the life of me, I'm not able to get the rotors to not rub. I have followed the directions and went 1/4 turn and spinning the wheel; have also pressed on the pads to make sure the pistons are fully retracted. Does anyone have any ideas as to what would cause this?


Rotors warp when you bolt them up to the hubs. You tweak them straight by (clean) hand afterwards.

The pistons and pads retraction needs time to relax. Ideally overnight once you've pushed them back. Otherwise just start riding and they'll sort themselves out in a few days.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I got mine today and just finished installing them. Out of the box front one was softer than rear, but I had to shorten both hoses so it didn't matter. After bleeding both brakes feel the same. Installing and bleeding was uneventful. I was bit worried initially about working with DOT, but there were no problems. 

There was one thing during the bleeding of the rear brake that worried me. After you have pumped fluid back and forth and there are no more bubbles coming you will push fluid from caliper to master cylinder and at the same time flick the lever to get some air out from master cylinder. When I did that with front brake I got some bubbles first and then no more bubbles. With rear it was different. I kept keeping bubbles as soon as I flicked the lever. I finally gave up and completed the bleed. I hope that there is no problem with seals that would introduce air to master cylinder when I use the brake.


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## Riding Blind (Jan 8, 2018)

compengr said:


> Are they rubbing with the bike in the stand or do you hear them when out riding?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


They are rubbing really bad while in the stand, to the point I will not ride to it gets better. It's like the brakes a barely engaged.


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## Riding Blind (Jan 8, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Rotors warp when you bolt them up to the hubs. You tweak them straight by (clean) hand afterwards.
> 
> The pistons and pads retraction needs time to relax. Ideally overnight once you've pushed them back. Otherwise just start riding and they'll sort themselves out in a few days.


The rotors seem straight and are not rubbing in one spot, it's consistently rubbing through the entire rotation. The rubbing is so bad it's like the brakes are engaged. The rear is much worse than the front and by barely applying pressure to the front lever the wheel will completely lock up. I'm going to re-bleed and not sure what else to try past that.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Riding Blind said:


> They are rubbing really bad while in the stand, to the point I will not ride to it gets better. It's like the brakes a barely engaged.


Something isn't right. They are either overfilled or you have alignment issues. Did you use the included bleed blocks?

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## Riding Blind (Jan 8, 2018)

compengr said:


> Something isn't right. They are either overfilled or you have alignment issues. Did you use the included bleed blocks?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I'm hoping they are overfilled, going to take the bleed screw out and if that doesn't resolve the problem re-bleed. I ordered the hayes alignment tool but it has yet to arrive.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Riding Blind said:


> I'm hoping they are overfilled, going to take the bleed screw out and if that doesn't resolve the problem re-bleed. I ordered the hayes alignment tool but it has yet to arrive.


Shouldn't need the tool. Pretty easy to eyeball them in place, and fine tune with grub screws. Should take no more than 5 minutes per side.

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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

I bought a Trek 8900 in 1998. It came with the first SID and Hayes very first hydraulic disk brakes. The SID was very light and worked good but it was a bit noodley. The Hayes brakes were the very worst. Light switch applications and no modulation. I put up with that till 2017 and gave the bike away to a needy sole. Needs a special bracket to bolt on modern stoppers. So finally they are making good brakes. We always need more choices. Will put a set on the very next build. XT and XTR works well but everything can be improved. Still looking for the perfect component.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Pedalon2018 said:


> I bought a Trek 8900 in 1998. It came with the first SID and Hayes very first hydraulic disk brakes. The SID was very light and worked good but it was a bit noodley. The Hayes brakes were the very worst. Light switch applications and no modulation. I put up with that till 2017 and gave the bike away to a needy sole. Needs a special bracket to bolt on modern stoppers. So finally they are making good brakes. We always need more choices. Will put a set on the very next build. XT and XTR works well but everything can be improved. Still looking for the perfect component.


I'll give you a tip for modulation: Squeeze more gently. Modulation comes from your fingers. Not the brake.

All brakes do is multiply your lever force into pad force on the caliper. It's directly proportional control. Squeeze harder and you stop harder. If you grab a fistful of Dominion A4 brake lever then your front wheel will stop.

But with newer bikes being slacker you're better braced to not go flying over the bars.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Riding Blind said:


> The rotors seem straight and are not rubbing in one spot, it's consistently rubbing through the entire rotation. The rubbing is so bad it's like the brakes are engaged. The rear is much worse than the front and by barely applying pressure to the front lever the wheel will completely lock up. I'm going to re-bleed and not sure what else to try past that.


You need to push the pistons back before you bleed. The bleed blocks set the piston protrusion which sets the right amount of fluid in the system.

So crack a bleed screw and push the pistons back.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Dougal said:


> I'll give you a tip for modulation: Squeeze more gently. Modulation comes from your fingers. Not the brake.
> 
> All brakes do is multiply your lever force into pad force on the caliper. It's directly proportional control. Squeeze harder and you stop harder. If you grab a fistful of Dominion A4 brake lever then your front wheel will stop.
> 
> But with newer bikes being slacker you're better braced to not go flying over the bars.


I appreciate your input. However you probably never experienced Hayes Hydraulic brakes from 1998. Of course it was their first attempt at it. I only lived with it for so long as I dislike using brakes and I was a big road guy in those days. There were the worst brakes I ever pulled a lever on.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Pedalon2018 said:


> I appreciate your input. However you probably never experienced Hayes Hydraulic brakes from 1998. Of course it was their first attempt at it. I only lived with it for so long as I dislike using brakes and I was a big road guy in those days. There were the worst brakes I ever pulled a lever on.


I still own and ride the original Hayes Mags. With 8" rotors. Loved the power, never had an issue with modulation.

The Dominions have more power than those.


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## kevinboyer (Jan 19, 2012)

So I have 3 bikes with Hope Tech 3 E4 brakes on them. I'm building up an Orange Alpine 6 shortly, and the brakes are my final purchase before I commence the build. Really keen on the Dominion A4's after reading this whole thread, as well as all the other great reviews that are available online. A couple of questions I have....

Is it imperative that you use the Hayes rotors on the A4's? If not, would the Hope floating rotor be a good choice?

Regarding adapters, which always trips me up when I build my bikes, I'm using a Cane Creek Helm fork which fits a 180mm rotor so I'm good there. Trying to find info on whether the Alpine 6 needs an adapter for the rear brake mount. Not finding anything yet online. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Looks like Bike24 and bike-discount.de have the best prices. Universal doesn't even show them on their website anymore. Any other places I should look at?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

kevinboyer said:


> So I have 3 bikes with Hope Tech 3 E4 brakes on them. I'm building up an Orange Alpine 6 shortly, and the brakes are my final purchase before I commence the build. Really keen on the Dominion A4's after reading this whole thread, as well as all the other great reviews that are available online. A couple of questions I have....
> 
> Is it imperative that you use the Hayes rotors on the A4's? If not, would the Hope floating rotor be a good choice?
> 
> ...


I bought mine from r2bike.

You should use the Hayes D7 rotors. They are thicker than most other rotors.

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## kevinboyer (Jan 19, 2012)

Thanks Harold. Hope rotors are pretty darn thick too. Not exactly sure on thickness, but my LBS mechanic and I have fought with the E4's a few times to get the rotors just right. He even commented this past weekend how thick the rotors are. I'll have to dig around to see what I can find out.

Edit...https://www.velonews.com/2011/10/mo...-rotors-and-drilling-frame-drain-holes_252053


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

kevinboyer said:


> Thanks Harold. Hope rotors are pretty darn thick too. Not exactly sure on thickness, but my LBS mechanic and I have fought with the E4's a few times to get the rotors just right. He even commented this past weekend how thick the rotors are. I'll have to dig around to see what I can find out.
> 
> Edit...https://www.velonews.com/2011/10/mo...-rotors-and-drilling-frame-drain-holes_252053


Dominion rotor is 1.95mm thick.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-hayes-dominion-a4-brake.html


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The floating rotor attachment points look like you'll have to carefully check clearance.

I wouldn't bother. Dominion rotors work.


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## Riding Blind (Jan 8, 2018)

I did another bleed on my brakes and was able to get enough pad clearance to break them in, they work great. I would say modulation and power are right along with the MT7. Even riding in very muddy conditions I had no squealing which was nice and the pads currently installed work way better once they get warmed up. Have a slight warp in the rotors that I will need to bend out but first impressions are all positive. Thanks to everyone for the feedback on my issue and if anyone has any questions regarding the brakes I will do my best to answer.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Hi, i bought these brakes and installed them on my Knolly Warden, they replaced some Formula Cura.
Install was easy, bleeding was long but i had no issues, i followed every step in the Hayes YouTube video.
Now i can't wait to try them in the weekend, and i'll start with sintered pads.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Good brakes. 

I was an XT user for ten years and liked them a lot. Some people complain that Shimano brakes do not have a good modulation, but I think this is only a problem if the levers are too far from handlebars. For me the XT modulation was good. And they hold value very well. I sold my 5 year old brakes for the 2/3 of the price of new XT brakes.

I liked what I read about the Dominions, but I did not have a real need for them and they were quite expensive. Then I decided to visit Alps this summer and this was a good excuse to upgrade the brakes in order to safely slow down my 100kg on long descents. 

Installation and bleeding was easy even with stupid internally routed rear brake hose.

I must say that I do not notice the brakes at all. In a good way. They just work, no problems. Very logical brakes  

Last couple of times I was riding bigger and steeper descents that had a loose soil on them. It was easy to control the speed without locking the brakes. I would say little bit easier than with XT brakes.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Anyone over 200lbs have experience with these brakes on steep/technical terrain? 

I'm looking to swap out my M8020s and trying to decide between these and Codes. I have had a number of fade issues with other brakes, mainly Guides, but I get some from time to time on my M8020s as well, along with a lack of consistency in lever feel when it gets cold. 

I also understand from reading this post that the levers don't do well run close to the bar, is that correct? I don't have any issue running them further out, but curious how much further out people are running them compared to Guides/Codes/XTs.

Thanks!


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

jazzanova said:


> Nomad 3. No internal routing.
> The second set was cut and bled by Hayes.
> After few rides the rear started to misbehave.
> My LBS bled this set 2x, each time the same thing happened. The brakes were good for maybe 5-8 rides.
> ...


Did your issues with these ever get resolved?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Adodero said:


> Anyone over 200lbs have experience with these brakes on steep/technical terrain?
> 
> I'm looking to swap out my M8020s and trying to decide between these and Codes. I have had a number of fade issues with other brakes, mainly Guides, but I get some from time to time on my M8020s as well, along with a lack of consistency in lever feel when it gets cold.
> 
> ...


I've just had a 200kg rider on a set. He loved them.

For small hands Hayes have released SFL versions of the Dominion (Small Form Lever). Same brake but a different lever geometry.



Adodero said:


> Did your issues with these ever get resolved?


I believe Jazzanova was attempting to run the brake with pad retraction and lever throw different to it's natural. self-adjusted, state. So as soon as it was used it would revert to normal pad retraction, increased lever throw and blade could hit the bar.

A setup issue. The brakes were doing what they should. Which is self-adjust the pads and maintain lever stroke.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I've just had a 200kg rider on a set. He loved them.
> 
> For small hands Hayes have released SFL versions of the Dominion (Small Form Lever). Same brake but a different lever geometry.
> 
> ...


Hmm
Not sure that was the case.
The replacement brakes came cut and ready to go from Hayes and the rear felt like ****.
I bled them few times, my lbs bled them few times. Always good for the first 3-4 rides. I didn't 
What helped a bit was when I swapped the rotors. The rear was slightly warped.
I do like these brakes but they are a bit inconsistent.
Im going to try 200mm rotors and see.
I didn't play with the lever throw or retraction. I don't say it isn't a user error, I am only saying I can't figure out what I or my lbs is doing wrong. The same shop set up my buddies dominions and they feel great. The only visible difference is he likes his levers far away from the bars, I like the opposite.
I am not giving up and somehow learned to live with them, hopefully the new, bigger rotors and new pads with a new bleed will help. I'll report back.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Hmm
> Not sure that was the case.
> The replacement brakes came cut and ready to go from Hayes and the rear felt like ****.
> I bled them few times, my lbs bled them few times. Always good for the first 3-4 rides. I didn't
> ...


Clues above in bold.

All flat rotors warp when bolted up to hubs. They need tweaked straight after. If they don't then the warped rotor can push the pads back more. This gives you inconsistent lever stroke as the pad travel keeps changing.

Running your levers closer to the bar gives you less margin for error with setup.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Adodero said:


> Anyone over 200lbs have experience with these brakes on steep/technical terrain?


Yeah. I'm about 202 buck naked, but I rarely ride technical terrain like that. Kitted up, maybe 212.

I like these brakes. Actually, I liked the Guide RS's that preceded them on this bike, but the Dominions seem to offer a little more power and a little more consistency in lever travel. I run my lever so that it barely touches my middle finger knuckle when my index finger is squeezing hard enough that the wheels would lock up under most conditions.

I've bled them once, and it was straight forward with no drama. My only gripe is that Hayes doesn't offer 203mm or center lock rotors. WTF is up with that. I couldn't use my existing Shimano Freeza rotors, as they're not compatible with the Dominion A4's. I went with Ice Techs, and I've found that they distort when they get hot.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RustyIron said:


> My only gripe is that Hayes doesn't offer 203mm or center lock rotors.


They don't do centre-locks. But they certainly do 203mm rotors. What are you running now?

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/d-series-brake-rotor-203-mm-hayes.html


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Adodero said:


> Anyone over 200lbs have experience with these brakes on steep/technical terrain?


Yeah, I'm about 250. Use 203/180 semi metallic and can drag my brakes down slow steep tech for seemingly forever with no fade. I do use fancy Motul fluid (rbf-600?). I did have a problem with the sintered pads once when I dragged them while riding with my dog on leash and they always howled after that. I'll chock that up to user error.
I can positively say that I've used these brakes to the extent that destroyed Guide Ultimate pads and my Dominions didn't even sweat. Honestly, it's these, Saints, or Trickstuff for me. The new G2's look cool and the Code RSC's get decent reviews, but all SRAM brakes I've seen eventually get that Turkey Gobble sound ever so slightly as you come to a stop.
The Dominions are just no fuss, noise free, great to align, lots of pad clearance, and you can get a no BS bleed with the twin caliper ports.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Thanks for the info everyone! Dougal, the comment on the rotor warping makes a lot of sense, I never considered that but always wondered why mine end up a little warped even when new. 

I'm seeing mention of the Guides here, which is a bit concerning as the Guides I ran had massively insufficient power for what I needed. Is the power of these closer to what I'd expect with the Guides or something like Codes/Saints?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

RustyIron said:


> My only gripe is that Hayes doesn't offer 203mm or center lock rotors. WTF is up with that.


Use centerlock-6 bolt adapters. It's what I'm using for my Dominions. No fuss. And I'm using 203/180 rotors on mine, too.



Adodero said:


> I'm seeing mention of the Guides here, which is a bit concerning as the Guides I ran had massively insufficient power for what I needed. Is the power of these closer to what I'd expect with the Guides or something like Codes/Saints?


My wife's bike has Guide R brakes and they're nowhere comparable in power to the Dominions. I don't have any experience with Codes or Saints, but they're probably more like those than the Guides. The Dominions are my first "proper" big brake. For me, they've definitely got more power than I usually need. 2 pot Shimanos have just enough at the most for me around here, and it's not been too hard for me to find situations where I wanted a bit more, at least in reserve. The Dominions definitely offer that.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

RustyIron said:


> Yeah. I'm about 202 buck naked, but I rarely ride technical terrain like that.
> ...
> 
> I couldn't use my existing Shimano Freeza rotors, as they're not compatible with the Dominion A4's. I went with Ice Techs, and I've found that they distort when they get hot.


Lol, yes, major problem riding naked is sliding around on the saddle.

About rotors - you should not use Shimano or Sram rotors because they are 1.7 mm thick when new, which is the minimum for the Dominion caliper. This will cause problems with lever travel and pad contact pretty quickly.

You should use Hayes Dominion because of the 1.95mm thickness. Hope V4 and Magura Storm rotors are both 2.0 mm so they may work but you could have some issues with rubbing especially when you have fresh pads.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Adodero said:


> Is the power of these closer to what I'd expect with the Guides or something like Codes/Saints?


More power than Saints. I don't have any significant riding time on Guides or Codes.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Awesome, thanks. I have a chance to check these out locally soon, so I'll see how they feel, but they sound really promising.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I started with Shimano XT Icetech rotors that are thinner than Hayes rotors. I hoped that pistons will auto-adjust to thinner rotors, but apparently that wasn't the case. Freestroke was still too long for my liking, I had too run levers far from bars in order to get sufficient stopping power. Yesterday I upgraded to Hayes rotors using Shimano Centerlock adapters. Pushed back the pistons, etc. The freestroke is now really minimal, I'm able to run levers closer to bar. Only downside is increase of weight. Icetech rotors were 148gr, Hayes rotors are 150 (without bolts) and 207gr with Centerlock adapters. 

I was running flat twisty singletrack with lots of turns, where you often have to slow down a little bit. With Dominions it was really easy to get just the right amount of braking.


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## TurboasT4 (Oct 2, 2004)

Anyone running an A4 front with an A2 rear?

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

TurboasT4 said:


> Anyone running an A4 front with an A2 rear?
> 
> Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


I don't know anyone yet running the A2. But that would be my preferred setup. I don't use the back brake much.


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## TurboasT4 (Oct 2, 2004)

I ended up pulling the trigger on a set of A4 Dominions yesterday. I decided against using an A2 for the rear. The price is the same as the A4's and the weight difference is negligible (303g vs 310g per Hayes' website).

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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Clues above in bold.
> 
> All flat rotors warp when bolted up to hubs. They need tweaked straight after. If they don't then the warped rotor can push the pads back more. This gives you inconsistent lever stroke as the pad travel keeps changing.
> 
> Running your levers closer to the bar gives you less margin for error with setup.


I have done 5 rides so far with the 203mm rotors +sintered pads and did bleed both brakes as well (used the Hayes bleed block and oil). The rotors are straight.
I made sure the rotors were right in the middle between the pads. Really took my time with that. Also bedded the new pads and rotors properly.
The increase in power (going from 180 rotors) is noticeable, I would say about 5-10% more. I have to be a little more careful not to lock the brakes and took few DH runs to rewire my brain.
The rear feels good so far. On steep, lower speed DHs with sharp SB and almost constant braking there is a tiny bit of stiffening/pumping going on. When the brake is released for a second or so, it goes away, but gets a little bit softer and the lever can be pulled even closer to the bars. It goes back to normal after the brakes have time to cool down more. It isn't as bad, it is manageable and barely noticeable. If it stays this way I am ok with it, but if it gets worse it will be hard to judge where the brake will lock the wheel...


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Upgraded to Dominion A4s a couple weeks ago. Safe to say I don't miss my XTs (2018, 2-piston flavor) one bit.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

jazzanova said:


> I have done 5 rides so far with the 203mm rotors +sintered pads and did bleed both brakes as well (used the Hayes bleed block and oil). The rotors are straight.
> I made sure the rotors were right in the middle between the pads. Really took my time with that. Also bedded the new pads and rotors properly.
> The increase in power (going from 180 rotors) is noticeable, I would say about 5-10% more. I have to be a little more careful not to lock the brakes and took few DH runs to rewire my brain.
> The rear feels good so far. On steep, lower speed DHs with sharp SB and almost constant braking there is a tiny bit of stiffening/pumping going on. When the brake is released for a second or so, it goes away, but gets a little bit softer and the lever can be pulled even closer to the bars. It goes back to normal after the brakes have time to cool down more. It isn't as bad, it is manageable and barely noticeable. If it stays this way I am ok with it, but if it gets worse it will be hard to judge where the brake will lock the wheel...


Update.
9 rides since I installed the new pads, 203mm rotors and bleeding both brakes.
142miles and 21k ft of DH.
The brakes have a lot of power with the bigger rotors and sintered pads.
However the lever throw got a bit longer. I am 5 clicks from the closest position to the bars. After the bleed, the lever throw was about a half the distance than it is now.
It isn't a deal breaker, but with my close to the bars setup it definitely isnt a short lever throw. It starts engaging about half way in it's travel. 
50mm to 15mm. End of the lever to grips distance.
The lever gets a bit softer after hard braking and it gets even closer to the bars, it is barely noticeable though. It goes back to normal after a while.









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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Did you return the lever to the farthest position before bleeding? That makes a huge difference. 

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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Did you return the lever to the farthest position before bleeding? That makes a huge difference.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Not this time. But I had done it few times before, didn't seem to make a difference. Will it let more oil in? 
Will try it again.

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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

So it looks like I am experiencing the same issue as this reviewer:
"as the pad bedded into the rotor, the lever seemed to pull slightly closer to the bar. The two may not be directly related, but whatever the reason, that quick bite wasn't quite as quick by the end of the week. The bleed was perfect, though. And the lever never felt in danger of bottoming out on the grip. In other words, it was far from having too much dead stroke. It just had a below-average amount."

The whole review:
https://www.bikemag.com/gear/components/brakes/beatdown-hayes-dominion-brakes/

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Update.
> 9 rides since I installed the new pads, 203mm rotors and bleeding both brakes.
> 142miles and 21k ft of DH.
> The brakes have a lot of power with the bigger rotors and sintered pads.
> ...


If it were a bleed issue then you'd have a mushy lever.

The Hayes Engineers (who follow this thread) think you might have a sticky piston. They unstick simply by being pumped back and forth but you need a block in the caliper to stop them popping out too far (like past the seal).

The red block in the bleed kit: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/pro-bleed-kit-with-dot-5-1-fluid-hayes.html is a bleed block that doubles as a piston stop for this sort of job. The end with the side tabs holds back the pistons on one side while letting the other side pump out a safe amount.

So take out the pads, put in that block and pump the lever to bring the pistons out. Push the pistons back in and repeat a few times. Turn the tool around and do the other side.
Use the fat end of the bleed block and a long lever squeeze to set all pistons and seals in a neutral position after.

See if this helps. Should only take half an hour and it's a clean job.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> If it were a bleed issue then you'd have a mushy lever.
> 
> The Hayes Engineers (who follow this thread) think you might have a sticky piston. They unstick simply by being pumped back and forth but you need a block in the caliper to stop them popping out too far (like past the seal).
> 
> ...


Thank you!
I cleaned and oiled all the pistons, repeated the procedure with the Hayes bleed block at least 5x on each side. Both calipers.
The dead stroke has shortened a bit (at least by 5mm) and the feel at the lever is more direct/firm.
The pistons were a bit sticky in the beginning, lubing them helped.
Fingers crossed the sticking pistons were the issue. 
I will report back after few rides.
Thanks again for the help!


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The red block in the bleed kit: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/pro-bleed-kit-with-dot-5-1-fluid-hayes.html is a bleed block that doubles as a piston stop for this sort of job. The end with the side tabs holds back the pistons on one side while letting the other side pump out a safe amount.


That is really well thought out.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

jazzanova said:


> Thank you!
> I cleaned and oiled all the pistons, repeated the procedure with the Hayes bleed block at least 5x on each side. Both calipers.
> The dead stroke has shortened a bit (at least by 5mm) and the feel at the lever is more direct/firm.
> The pistons were a bit sticky in the beginning, lubing them helped.
> ...





Dougal said:


> If it were a bleed issue then you'd have a mushy lever.
> 
> The Hayes Engineers (who follow this thread) think you might have a sticky piston. They unstick simply by being pumped back and forth but you need a block in the caliper to stop them popping out too far (like past the seal).
> 
> ...


I have read some conflicting info regarding lubing the pistons.
This park tool video recommends using either dot or mineral oil based on the system. 




While this pinkbike article says not to lube them at all.
https://m.pinkbike.com/news/tech-sp...ton-service-assessment-2014.html#comment_wrap

Some coments suggest using a high temperature silicone grease.
"Neither mineral oil or dot are lubricants but corrosive brake fluids, and both actually cause the piston seals to slightly swell (this is designed into systems and prevent fluid leaks under high pressure)
Initially, using DOT or Mineral Oil makes it easy to reseat the pistons as they press back easily into the caliper bay.*
However, it then causes more drag on the piston / seal interface. It seems like a quick fix but often make piston imbalance worse. *The correct lubricant to use is high-temp silicon grease, Avid have their "Pit Stop" variant and Hope use "Hunter" for example. This does require a caliper rebuild to install properly, but ensures a long working life and good piston balance."

I am not so sure now I did the right thing using dot to lubricate the pistons...

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> I have read some conflicting info regarding lubing the pistons.
> This park tool video recommends using either dot or mineral oil based on the system.
> 
> 
> ...


You don't need to lube them externally. Working them in and out gets the brake fluid on the pistons from the inside and spreads it across the seals as needed.

Exactly the same as suspension forks.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> You don't need to lube them externally. Working them in and out gets the brake fluid on the pistons from the inside and spreads it across the seals as needed.
> 
> Exactly the same as suspension forks.


Should I just leave them now or should I clean the oil I used?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Should I just leave them now or should I clean the oil I used?
> 
> Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


DOT is fine from a pad/piston point of view, but you want to clean any extra off so it can't get into the pads.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> DOT is fine from a pad/piston point of view, but you want to clean any extra off so it can't get into the pads.


Thanks. You are correct.
This is from Hayes:
"We lubricate the piston with DOT 4 because it has better lubricant additives than DOT 5.1.* The silicone greases that we have tested have shown good compatibility with the square seals, but we can't recommend "silicone grease" in general because there could be one with additives that harm the seal.* Also, some of our testing of silicone grease resulted in a significant retraction reduction resulting in difficult setup and/or rotor rub.

With any piston lubrication the user has to be careful to apply only a small amount.* Otherwise the lubricant can contaminate the pad by getting onto the pad backing plate and wicking into the pad material through the adhesion holes in the backing plate.

So I would recommend lubricating the piston with a small amount of DOT 4."

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## Mebaru (Jun 5, 2017)

Ok, so I have these brakes for two months, everything was great - the stopping power, modulation, no rub etc. Recently I have changed stock pads (organic?) with other pair that came with the brakes (metal?) and can't get rid of the rub on both ends!

I tried re-aligning pistons to neutral position as described by Dougal but that didn't help. Should I try to re-bleed brakes? Not sure if this is a bleeding issue because levers are firm and bite is strong. Modulation feels weak now - maybe because of metal pads that have greater stopping power.

The rotors are the same - SRAM Centerline from my previous Guides. I didn't had any issue with them with former pads. Should I change them to Hayes rotors maybe?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mebaru said:


> Ok, so I have these brakes for two months, everything was great - the stopping power, modulation, no rub etc. Recently I have changed stock pads (organic?) with other pair that came with the brakes (metal?) and can't get rid of the rub on both ends!
> 
> I tried re-aligning pistons to neutral position as described by Dougal but that didn't help. Should I try to re-bleed brakes? Not sure if this is a bleeding issue because levers are firm and bite is strong. Modulation feels weak now - maybe because of metal pads that have greater stopping power.
> 
> The rotors are the same - SRAM Centerline from my previous Guides. I didn't had any issue with them with former pads. Should I change them to Hayes rotors maybe?


When you push the pistons and pads all the way back. Leave them there overnight to give the square seals a chance to relax.

Also work them in and out as per directions to Jazzanova a few posts above. When pistons have been out pushing worn pads they are dry and don't like being pushed back in. Working them in and out cleans the pistons and helps the seals reset.


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## Mebaru (Jun 5, 2017)

Dougal said:


> When you push the pistons and pads all the way back. Leave them there overnight to give the square seals a chance to relax.
> 
> Also work them in and out as per directions to Jazzanova a few posts above. When pistons have been out pushing worn pads they are dry and don't like being pushed back in. Working them in and out cleans the pistons and helps the seals reset.


Yes, I worked in and out pistons but that didn't help, the rub is still there. Will try to push pistons all the way back and leave there for a night.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I had a, similar thing happen quite recently. You need to bleed the brakes, and specifically, you need to remove fluid.

I'm guessing that you had bled the brakes with worn pads. I had done that.

Also, your sram rotors are not ideal. Plenty of prior discussion about that. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

5rides, about 85miles/12k feet descent I can happily report back that after exercising the sticky pistons using the Hayes bleed block I have no more issues with the Dominions.
No more soft mushy lever or pumping, no more moving point of engagement.
Just a lot of power and consistent feel with the 203mm rotors and sintered pads.
Will report later if anything changes.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> 5rides, about 85miles/12k feet descent I can happily report back that after exercising the sticky pistons using the Hayes bleed block I have no more issues with the Dominions.
> No more soft mushy lever or pumping, no more moving point of engagement.
> Just a lot of power and consistent feel with the 203mm rotors and sintered pads.
> Will report later if anything changes.


Excellent news.:thumbsup:


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Super happy that I got them. First day in the Dolomites, 5000 meters of descent, which was mostly braking because of my lack of skill. I swapped the front and rear pads in the middle of the day because front got so thin. Those were the organic pads, fortunately I have the metalic ones with me and change them for tomorrow. My XT-s would have been melted probably.

I have question though. The front disc is really black. It was also squueking loudly during the breaking. Should I do something with it immediately or later? Or can I leave it as it is? Does it make sense to swap front and rear discs for now?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

arnea said:


> Super happy that I got them. First day in the Dolomites, 5000 meters of descent, which was mostly braking because of my lack of skill. I swapped the front and rear pads in the middle of the day because front got so thin. Those were the organic pads, fortunately I have the metalic ones with me and change them for tomorrow. My XT-s would have been melted probably.
> 
> I have question though. The front disc is really black. It was also squueking loudly during the breaking. Should I do something with it immediately or later? Or can I leave it as it is? Does it make sense to swap front and rear discs for now?


I had the black glaze before. But with metallic pads. I went back to the semi-metallic and the black glaze scrubbed off and hasn't returned.

It's still a mystery.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

I finally got these put on two weeks ago and have put ~70 miles or so on them, along with the install process and two bleeds. 

I really like the feel so far. The lever feel is incredible and the power comes on really nicely compared to other brakes I've run recently. They do seem to run a bit hotter than others I've had (in the rather cheesy and pointless hover-hand temperature test), but they do not seem to fade much, if at all. I did a run down a trail that's traditionally pretty fast here, but has recently become somewhat eroded and chunky for whatever reason. It ended up being a bit of a white knuckle experience for me trying to stay inside the rut and not on the side of the mountain.

To be blunt, I'm not the fastest rider, I try to ride everything and be smooth, but I'm a good ways behind the more experienced folks I ride with in terms of speed. I also weigh 215lbs and am on a longer travel 29er. These things translate to cooked brakes. I had substantial fade on my Guides and XTs and considerably less on my Code RSCs. I've yet to experience enough fade on these to be of any consideration, there may have been a small amount of lever feel difference near the end yesterday, but considering you could cook an egg on the caliper by the time I got to the bottom and there were very few spots where the back wasn't down a good ways, I don't think it was enough to really consider. 

The alignment system on the caliper is incredible. It makes pulling the caliper off and re-installing it much easier and less error prone, along with reducing drag from your rotors rubbing. The bleed block functioning as a piston lubrication tool is also a really nice touch. To answer an earlier question, both of mine came with the bleed block, along with the barb for trimming the hoses, a new threaded fitting, and a set of metallic pads.

I do think I slightly prefer the lever ergonomics of the Codes, but just barely. The shorter levers seem more in line with Shimano than SRAM, but the feel is much better in every other way. Once I moved them a bit more inboard, they felt great, I initially placed them where I had the Code levers before and that resulted in some awkward reaching.

I'd say my only gripes are that the pads load from the bottom, which isn't that big of a deal, but it does mean you'll probably have to pull the caliper to change pads. The biggest is the bleed process, which I've found a bit more prone to fluid leaks than with SRAM, so definitely do it off the bike like their process recommends (if you can, otherwise carefully wrap your frame and cover the bleed fitting with a cloth when you remove it, I suppose).

The other issue I often have with brakes I've owned is that around the 50% pad wear mark, the lever feel starts to go to pot and the lever pulls all the way to the bar. I haven't reached that point yet with these, so we'll see how it goes. Similar to other users, I run mine pretty close in, so there isn't a huge margin of swing available unless I let it out. We'll see how that feels over time, too early to tell currently.


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## griffsterb (May 10, 2014)

This is kind of silly but I lost my bleed block. The shimano one is a little thinner than hayes and so the pads rub on the rotors if I use the shimano block. Does anyone have an extra, or maybe can measure the thickness and I can try to find or make something the same width?


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Sigh... 

My Dominions have been working great... until two rides ago. On the epic downhill shredding section, I noticed the front brake lever engaging further and further out. Eventually the ride started feeling "weird," so I brought everything to a stop. From there, I couldn't get going again. The front brake was locked up. I ended up squeezing like crazy on the lever, until it came to the bar, and upon releasing, the pads moved away from the rotor. Odd. 

Fast forward to today. Another epic downhill. I could feel the lever engagement moving further and further from the bars. Again, I stopped. This time the pads were dragging, but the wheel would still roll. Even so, that's in no way safe. Again, I squeezed the bejesus out of the lever until it touched the bars, and all was well. 

There are about 500 miles on the brakes, and I've let a little fluid out of the caliper when the lever throw was less than on the other lever. It made no difference, but it's clear the system isn't overfilled. 

Any ideas what to do next? 

Thanks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RustyIron said:


> Sigh...
> 
> My Dominions have been working great... until two rides ago. On the epic downhill shredding section, I noticed the front brake lever engaging further and further out. Eventually the ride started feeling "weird," so I brought everything to a stop. From there, I couldn't get going again. The front brake was locked up. I ended up squeezing like crazy on the lever, until it came to the bar, and upon releasing, the pads moved away from the rotor. Odd.
> 
> ...


The lever moves out as the fluid heats and expands. That is normal. But they should reset to normal stroke every time the lever is released. Because releasing the lever lets the line vent to the reservoir.

A reservoir that is too full can cause the system to pump up (nowhere for the expanded fluid to go). Which brake did you let fluid from?

Can you check this behaviour again and see if the lever resets stroke when released?


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Dougal said:


> A reservoir that is too full can cause the system to pump up (nowhere for the expanded fluid to go). Which brake did you let fluid from?


The one that was not having the problem.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RustyIron said:


> The one that was not having the problem.


So you overfilled both, let the excess fluid from one and the other is pumping up when it gets hot?


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Dougal said:


> So you overfilled both, let the excess fluid from one and the other is pumping up when it gets hot?


Please stop. I'll wait and see if anyone else has a suggestion.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

RustyIron said:


> Please stop. I'll wait and see if anyone else has a suggestion.


Seems like a reasonable suggestion to me?

Did you bleed with the Hayes bleed block in place? Are you using Hayes rotors?

Maybe try the piston lubrication procedure mentioned earlier in this thread to see if that helps, maybe one of the pistons is sticking. I'd also try to center the pads using the pad spacer instead of on the rotor, it seems to help make sure the piston expansion is equal and prevent alignment issues. Neither of those make much sense with the heat issues, but worth trying and simple enough.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Something is blocking the bypass from main cylinder to reservoir? Some debris in brake fluid? Perhaps flushing the brake from main cylinder to caliper would help? Another idea is to back off the free stroke adjuster little bit to move the piston away from bypass to make sure that it is always uncovered.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RustyIron said:


> Please stop. I'll wait and see if anyone else has a suggestion.


I'm the person here with the most resources and experience on these brakes. Yet you're making it impossible for me to actually help you.

Weird.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I'm the person here with the most resources and experience on these brakes. Yet you're making it impossible for me to actually help you.
> 
> Weird.


:I was just about to type the same.
Dougal knows what he is talking about here.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I'm the person here with the most resources and experience on these brakes. Yet you're making it impossible for me to actually help you.


My apologies. I mistakenly thought you were treating me as if I was some kind of goofball with no mechanical or diagnostic skills. It's hard to discern a person's knowledge/skill/intent from a few short sentences.

Let's start over, and we'll restrict the discussion to the front brake. It has minimal take-up/pad-clearance. In itself, that's fine. However, on steep technical chunk, lever throw becomes less and less until the pads are tight on the rotor. I've let out fluid a few times by loosening a caliper screw and letting some drain onto a rag--but not much.

I'd like your thoughts on this, and perhaps a couple more questions:

1. Does it make sense to drain more fluid at this point?

2. Although it's at the factory settings, can a maladjusted contact point diminish the ability of fluid to return to the lever? I get not touch it, as I read that it's perfect from the factory.

Thanks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RustyIron said:


> My apologies. I mistakenly thought you were treating me as if I was some kind of goofball with no mechanical or diagnostic skills. It's hard to discern a person's knowledge/skill/intent from a few short sentences.
> 
> Let's start over, and we'll restrict the discussion to the front brake. It has minimal take-up/pad-clearance. In itself, that's fine. However, on steep technical chunk, lever throw becomes less and less until the pads are tight on the rotor. I've let out fluid a few times by loosening a caliper screw and letting some drain onto a rag--but not much.
> 
> ...


Everything points to your front brake being over-filled.

The only way to get the correct fluid volume in the brake (and reservoir) is to bleed it with the bleed block in place. If you don't have a bleed-block then having all four pistons pushed back flush (i.e. pads slammed back) is the alternative.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Dougal said:


> The only way to get the correct fluid volume in the brake (and reservoir) is to bleed it with the bleed block in place.


Thanks. I think I'm good there. How about adjustment of the contact point, for lack of a more accurate term. I'd like your thoughts on that.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RustyIron said:


> Thanks. I think I'm good there. *How about adjustment of the contact point*, for lack of a more accurate term. I'd like your thoughts on that.


I recommend leaving that completely alone. Lest it stops the MC from reaching top of stroke and not being able to vent into the reservoir.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Thanks anyway, Doug. Since it was beginning to look like nobody had experience to share other than bleeding, I DID take it apart after dinner. 

There was a minor assembly error from the factory, but I can't definitively say that contributed to the problem. Sometimes delicate mechanisms are assembled and initially work fine, but after a little time and a little wear, things begin acting up. Taking it all apart gave me the opportunity to see the relationships of the parts. Exploring new mechanisms is always fun. 

Regardless of the cause of the problem, the brake is now set up as it should be, so I'm pretty confident it will run fine once it heats up. 

Adios!
R


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Just reporting back. After cleaning and exercising the pistons these brakes are flawless. I went with 200mm rotors and with the metal pads they actually have too much power if there is such a thing. I have to be very very careful not to lock them each time I have to to slow down fast...
However I have 1 question. 
The front occasionally rubs on uphills when there seems to be less pressure on the handlebars, it makes hauling sound and I can feel slight vibration trough the bars. It never happens on flats or DH, only uphill and mainly uphill switchbacks. I checked the hub, also rotor is straight as well.
Also, I have tried the Hayes/Sram matchmaker and it doesn't work well for me. I don't have big hands and like to run shifter further away from the brake. It just doesn't go far enough for me.


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## monkies (Jun 10, 2007)

*caliper only bleed*

Anyone know why the dual syringe/caliper only bleed says to keep the caliber below the MC? I would think you'd want the caliper above the MC to have any air come out.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Just reporting back. After cleaning and exercising the pistons these brakes are flawless. I went with 200mm rotors and with the metal pads they actually have too much power if there is such a thing. I have to be very very careful not to lock them each time I have to to slow down fast...
> However I have 1 question.
> The front occasionally rubs on uphills when there seems to be less pressure on the handlebars, it makes hauling sound and I can feel slight vibration trough the bars. It never happens on flats or DH, only uphill and mainly uphill switchbacks. I checked the hub, also rotor is straight as well.
> Also, I have tried the Hayes/Sram matchmaker and it doesn't work well for me. I don't have big hands and like to run shifter further away from the brake. It just doesn't go far enough for me.


Sometimes fork/frame flex/movement can move the brake rotor to one side when you ride compared to being in a work-stand.
If you can work-out which side and slightly offset the caliper to that side, it'll run clearer when loaded up.

My old FSR the rear stays flexed outward, I setup the rear caliper further inwards to compensate so it ran centered when loaded.


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

Here's another great article about brakes from Andrew Major from NSMB.com, this time about the Hayes Dominion.

https://nsmb.com/articles/hayes-dominion-a4-brakes-ridden-and-torndown/


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

PuddleDuck said:


> Here's another great article about brakes from Andrew Major from NSMB.com, this time about the Hayes Dominion.
> 
> https://nsmb.com/articles/hayes-dominion-a4-brakes-ridden-and-torndown/


Cool to see. A lot of people are still totally unaware of these brakes and how great they are. Looking back now, I do think they're fairly expensive, which I suspect causes people to choose an alternative with more brand-name recognition.

Regarding the review itself, I noticed the author says he didn't need or value the crosshair alignment system. Which is, frankly, insane. Then I scrolled back up and saw his bike is a steel rigid with a Chris King headset.  I know the type...


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

ColinL said:


> Regarding the review itself, I noticed the author says he didn't need or value the crosshair alignment system. Which is, frankly, insane. Then I scrolled back up and saw his bike is a steel rigid with a Chris King headset.  I know the type...


I thought that was odd also, but their reviews tend to be the most honest of the other publications and they seem to actually spend time with the products they review rather than just run through the queue.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Adodero said:


> I thought that was odd also, but their reviews tend to be the most honest of the other publications and they seem to actually spend time with the products they review rather than just run through the queue.


I *can* align calipers without crosshair. Obviously, you have to be able to do that. But it takes longer and is more difficult. Crosshair makes it fast and easy, so I do value it. Reminds me of something the Angry Singlespeeder would have written here on MTBR 10 years ago.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

ColinL said:


> I *can* align calipers without crosshair. Obviously, you have to be able to do that. But it takes longer and is more difficult. Crosshair makes it fast and easy, so I do value it. Reminds me of something the Angry Singlespeeder would have written here on MTBR 10 years ago.


I agree with you, I find it useful for a multitude of reasons, including keeping the caliper in place if bolts loosen and ease of removal/reinstall. I'm not sure why they felt it was unnecessary, but I generally find the folks at NSMB to be more consistent with their reviews than others, despite their impression of the bolts.


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## jabber127 (Jan 26, 2016)

If anyone is hunting for the correct hayes adapters, I've been in touch with a customer service rep that discovered a bug on their online store where the page exists but is not accessible through the navigation on the site (well done, Phil!). Here's the link to the adapters:

https://shop.hayesperformance.com/collections/hayes-disc-brakes?page=4

Just ordered and it went through just fine.


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

ColinL said:


> Regarding the review itself, I noticed the author says he didn't need or value the crosshair alignment system. Which is, frankly, insane. Then I scrolled back up and saw his bike is a steel rigid with a Chris King headset.  I know the type...


Hello Colin,

Here's an alternative perspective for you rather than being judgemental and disparaging by calling Andrew insane and rolling your eyes. We can celebrate that he has the patience and skill to align brakes.

When we compare that at least one person on this Brake forum who said that he didn't even have the patience to bed in brakes...and when we often rant about the poor skills of LBS mechanics...then we should rejoice in finding someone who has the skills and temprement to do things well. I'm pretty sure that Andrew works at a bike shop...

Enjoy the rest of your day mate


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

PuddleDuck said:


> Hello Colin,
> 
> Here's an alternative perspective for you rather than being judgemental and disparaging by calling Andrew insane and rolling your eyes. We can celebrate that he has the patience and skill to align brakes.
> 
> ...


Maybe I was a little loose with my commentary, and I've forever lost the opportunity for an invite to his dinner table. I don't know him, and he doesn't know me, so obviously I'm not actually attempting to assess his mental health nor am I qualified to do so.

He's the one who put the review out there saying the crosshair doesn't matter and (I'm paraphrasing) it's a waste of weight. Meanwhile, other reviewers love them. I love them.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> Cool to see. A lot of people are still totally unaware of these brakes and how great they are. Looking back now, I do think they're fairly expensive, which I suspect causes people to choose an alternative with more brand-name recognition.
> 
> Regarding the review itself, I noticed the author says he didn't need or value the crosshair alignment system. Which is, frankly, insane. Then I scrolled back up and saw his bike is a steel rigid with a Chris King headset.  I know the type...


The reason I absolutely love the cross-hair alignment screws is because I'm always swapping suspension forks for testing.

Mr rigid fork is immune from that totally. He needs to align his brake once. Once.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Magura adapters work too

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> The reason I absolutely love the cross-hair alignment screws is because I'm always swapping suspension forks for testing.
> 
> Mr rigid fork is immune from that totally. He needs to align his brake once. Once.


I think you're in rare company with the fork swaps.. but everyone wears out and replaces rotors, and some people have multiple wheels. Both of those generally necessitate caliper re-alignment.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Had one of my Dominions go bad.
Front brake, started pulling to the bar mid ride.
By the time I got back to the car, I had it wound all the way out and it was pulling to the bar.
Took it home and checked all connections - all are tight. No signs of fluid anywhere leaking in the system. So I bled it with no issues and it seemed fine post bleed.
Checked it a couple times during the evening, no issues.
Checked again in the am, still good.
During the days ride, it started doing the same thing, and by the time I got back to the car, again wound all the way out and pulling to the bar.
E-mailed Hayes, asking for advice on what to check as I figured I was pulling air in somewhere. I let them know what I did, no apparent leaks, nothing loose etc. 
They told me I had done enough and couriered me a new brake, pro bleed kit, caliper rebuild kit, extra brake line, fittings, reservoir cap and bladder etc. 
Totally set me up. No RMA, just here ya go.

Shout out to Hayes for seriously stepping up. They are really trying to keep customers happy by the looks of it.

I have put the new brake on and it has been solid ever since.

Anybody want to take a guess as to what the OG's problem is, and or how to diagnose it? Trail ridden when it failed both times was mild on mostly flat ground, pretty tight and twisty so not even a mild challenge brake wise. Not that it really matters, but rotors are the new matching Hayes D series.

I would like to get it back to working status, but don't want to just start throwing parts at it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mykel said:


> Had one of my Dominions go bad.
> Front brake, started pulling to the bar mid ride.
> By the time I got back to the car, I had it wound all the way out and it was pulling to the bar.
> Took it home and checked all connections - all are tight. No signs of fluid anywhere leaking in the system. So I bled it with no issues and it seemed fine post bleed.
> ...


Weird. Did it fade through if you kept steady pressure on the lever? To do that something is allowing bypass around the piston. Cutaway on page 1 shows you most things for strip-down.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Dougal said:


> Weird. Did it fade through if you kept steady pressure on the lever? To do that something is allowing bypass around the piston. Cutaway on page 1 shows you most things for strip-down.


D

Honestly not too sure.
Both times I was out trail building and it was at the end of the day. As usual I pushed the time a bit so was trying to get back to the car before dark so did not mess around trying to figure out exactly what was happening. Trail has no sustained braking areas, just tight and twisty in a ravine system, so just quick on and off.

I run my levers close to the bar, so full lockup is just off of the grip. Things would seem fine, then I'm on the grip but still slowing, then on the grip with no brake. Stop, wind it out a bit, and continue on. 5 minutes later rinse and repeat.

First time it happened, when I got to the car there was enough front brake to stop a lifted spinning wheel. Second time, to the bar and wheels goes on spinning its merry way.

The rear is still solid since first built up and I never have to adjust it. Front is back to that with the new brake.

Thanks

m


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## mtb_phd (Jun 28, 2017)

I set up the Dominion A4 on my new Reign 29er and am absolutely loving them! Now to get them on the brake power meter and test them for real...


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

mtb_phd said:


> I set up the Dominion A4 on my new Reign 29er and am absolutely loving them! Now to get them on the brake power meter and test them for real...


Looking forward to hearing your results!


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## monkies (Jun 10, 2007)

Bought a set of these so thought I'd give some insights as well...

Rear caliper adapter: The Shimano post was a no go. But the Magura QM40 (180 rotor) worked just fine. There is nobody that carries the Hayes adapter, so don't even bother with it. 

Stuck pistons: After reading these posts about stuck pistons, I've done what I've never done with disc brakes: exercise the pistons. One of the caliper's pistons was def uneven, so I went back and forth quite a bit before even starting the bleed procedure. They got better but still not protruding at the same rate, but I went on hoping this would resolve itself with actual use.

Bleeding: No issues at all using the bleed kit. I even f'd up cutting the line too short, so I had to get a new hose. Everything bled easily even with all the air in the system. I took the lever reach all the way out, and used my bike stand with a spare handlebar per their rec. Also had this extra piece to tie the caliper to the stand so my hands were relatively free with all ports facing up.

Peacemaker: The clamp is kind of wide, and unfortunately only comes in 1 direction (to the right of the brake). So if you want one on the left side of your bars for your dropper lever, that lever will be inward on the bars. I don't get why Hayes hasn't made a L and R version. Regarding the size of the clamp, fortunately the brake levers are kind of long so they are further in on my handlebars than my XTs...by a lot. 

Looks: They are big brakes. Looking from the top they look huge, but they are slim when looking from the front. The XTs for example look thin from the top, but from the front are deep. So the overall volume probably isn't that far off. The color and style look a bit dated but they do stick out. 

The ride: I need all the help I can get biking. I've pretty much only used Shimano variants (XTs, Zees), and a long time ago had Formula K24s and old Juicys (lever to bar and no stopping!). I never thought this word 'modulation' meant anything in the real world, so I always picked up the cheapest option for brakes. What I noticed was simple when riding the Dominion: no skidding sound on any corner. Just a tap and I was slowing down, and I went around easy. On fast straight sections, small taps and I was in control. Slowed down without having to think about it...for once I didn't have to think 'I'm braking.' The brakes made me faster, all while braking not resulting in a skidding/floating sensation. The irony. No issues so far on the trail with the levers touching the grips.

Issues?: I noticed a click on one lever that started recently (only about 4 rides so far). Basically when I flick the lever there's a click from somewhere, but it's not on the other lever. I stopped caring about various sounds on my other brakes simply because they were cheap. I did get these are a good price, but I would expect equivalence or consistency.

My other fear is that Hayes isn't big like your popular brake options like Shimano, Magura, or SRAM. Finding a compression fitting required looking at the archive bins at bike shops. Pads will probably be available online only. So the fear is that if these don't get traction they may become some oddball brakes you may have to replace altogether if the vendor stops support. Then again I still have my Marzocchi 380 fork on the dh bike and not complaining.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

monkies said:


> Bought a set of these so thought I'd give some insights as well...
> 
> Rear caliper adapter: The Shimano post was a no go. But the Magura QM40 (180 rotor) worked just fine. There is nobody that carries the Hayes adapter, so don't even bother with it.
> 
> ...


For adapters and parts supply. Hayes have been making bike brakes for over 20 years and they still supply pads and pistons for their original brakes.

Magura is probably the only other MTB brake maker with this much history and consistency.

Any bike shop worldwide can order you pads, adapters, brakes etc. If they say they can't then they're just being lazy.


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## Ice-Bear (Nov 9, 2019)

I have been running the A4s with 203 rotors for about 2 months with the Metal T100 pads. They are fantastic. The new Hayes rotors bring back good memories of the HFX Mag brakes I liked back in the day. Only thing negative about those brakes is you had to use the "chapstick style" loctite on the reach adjust screw because if you used the liquid loctite it would drip into the wrong spots. 

My question is this: What is the minimum pad thickness Hayes recommends before installing new pads? Hayes says 1.7mm on the Rotor but I couldn't find anything on the pads. The reason for my question is when my rear pads hit 3.4mm overall down from 4.0mm new, the lever went to the bar. I did have a ride or 2 before where I drastically had to increase reach to get the bite point hitting about 1.5cm off the grip. Did my mechanic just not do a proper bleed?

After the ride, I got home and bled the brake and installed new pads and they are working perfectly once I bedded them in. 

Thanks


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Ice-Bear said:


> I have been running the A4s with 203 rotors for about 2 months with the Metal T100 pads. They are fantastic. The new Hayes rotors bring back good memories of the HFX Mag brakes I liked back in the day. Only thing negative about those brakes is you had to use the "chapstick style" loctite on the reach adjust screw because if you used the liquid loctite it would drip into the wrong spots.
> 
> My question is this: What is the minimum pad thickness Hayes recommends before installing new pads? Hayes says 1.7mm on the Rotor but I couldn't find anything on the pads. The reason for my question is when my rear pads hit 3.4mm overall down from 4.0mm new, the lever went to the bar. I did have a ride or 2 before where I drastically had to increase reach to get the bite point hitting about 1.5cm off the grip. Did my mechanic just not do a proper bleed?
> 
> ...


There wasn't enough fluid in the brake from your first bleed. I've been able to wear pads down to the last mm or so.

Keep those pads, they've got lots of life left.


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## mike_of_earth (Aug 1, 2016)

A few questions from a noob:

1) I ordered the bleed kit with syringes, which also comes with 2oz of fluid. Is that enough to set the brakes up initially?

2) On the website, the pictures of the adapters to mount the brake on the frame / fork are not helpful at all. How do I figure out which I need (180 rear and front)?

3) I read some center lock adapters don't work right with some rotor materials. For those of you running these, what brand are you using?

TIA!


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

1) Yes it is enough, and you can get DOT 4 or 5.1 at any auto parts store.

2) Dependent on what your fork and frame are designed with. For instance if your fork or frame has post mounts for 160 you will need some +20mm adapters. Some frames still have IS mounts, in which case you will buy the direct size you need, being 180 mm IS. If your frame and fork are already 180, you don't need adapters. Shimano and SRAM adapters don't allow enough clearance for these calipers, however I did initially grind out about 1/2mm from a shimano to make it work. I then ordered a Hayes one to take a 160 mount to 180. It seems more confusing than it is and I am sure someone can describe it better. I will say that with my frame, the Hayes adapter moved the caliper back and up, which worked better with my frame. 

3) Sorry, I have no experience with centerlock rotors.


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## charlatan (Aug 14, 2010)

sherwin24 said:


> 1) Yes it is enough, and you can get DOT 4 or 5.1 at any auto parts store.
> 
> 2) Dependent on what your fork and frame are designed with. For instance if your fork or frame has post mounts for 160 you will need some +20mm adapters. Some frames still have IS mounts, in which case you will buy the direct size you need, being 180 mm IS. If your frame and fork are already 180, you don't need adapters. Shimano and SRAM adapters don't allow enough clearance for these calipers, however I did initially grind out about 1/2mm from a shimano to make it work. I then ordered a Hayes one to take a 160 mount to 180. It seems more confusing than it is and I am sure someone can describe it better. I will say that with my frame, the Hayes adapter moved the caliper back and up, which worked better with my frame.


Thanks for the insight. I've learned that my MRP fork is built for 180, so I'll consult the frame maker on the rear adapter.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Here's a Dominion being tested on Hayes Instagram page:

__
http://instagr.am/p/B5TKN9CBkPE/


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

One man show of a sponsored guy...


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Groove_c said:


> One man show of a sponsored guy...


Yeah, but the Do minions are still the best brakes on the market today, right with the Maguras.
Shimano, Sram and Hopes can suck it.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

jazzanova said:


> Yeah, but the Do minions are still the best brakes on the market today, right with the Maguras.
> Shimano, Sram and Hopes can suck it.


Better than Magura MT7 in the real world due to easier bleeding and dot fluid being superior to mineral oil. Better than everything other than the MT7 due to weight, power, lever feel, etc.

I just thought that was a dumb comment. Why bother wandering into the Hayes thread if you're a self-proclaimed MTB brakes' (sic) specialist who puts XTR brakes in their signature?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Groove_c said:


> One man show of a sponsored guy...


Sponsored? Nah, that's Remy Metailler, he's a way better rider and can do things like this:


__
http://instagr.am/p/B3M4g2eAF6J/

I'm just a Hayes rider since 2000 and big fan who ended up being a distributor and test rider.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

*@ColinL*
Shure, they are great, but all the greatness comes at a price, which is justified.
I use XTR 4-pot and before I had Saint 4-pot.
They are cheaper, but since they work like a Swiss watch, I can't complain.

Saying that other brakes suck, just because you had no luck with them or haven't even owned them and your opinion is based only on what you have read on the net...

Also doubting someone's knowledge, just because the person doesn't have the most expensive brakes or they are not the ones one thinks about when talking quality/consistency...

So poor and narrow minded.

Following such a logic, one could then also say, that Dominion are nowhere near Trickstuff Diretissima, which cost even more.

It's always about price/performance.

One can't say, that Porsche is worse than Ferrari.

And I don't have to ask for permission what I can/have to put in my signature and what and where to post or not.

I have my bike and brakes in signature just for info, when discussing something somewhere. One can directly see what is my setup. That's it.

It's so dumb from your side to downrep me, because you didn't like something.
There can't just be one right opinion, which is yours.

It's very likely to see people reporting problems with different brakes' manufacturers on different forums, since most people register to ask for advise or to complain.
Because most people that have no problems, they just ride and don't spend their time on forums to bash on/at something/somebody.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Groove_c said:


> *@ColinL*
> Shure, they are great, but all the greatness comes at a price, which is justified.
> I use XTR 4-pot and before I had Saint 4-pot.
> They are cheaper, but since they work like a Swiss watch, I can't complain.
> ...


LOL!

*You* showed up here with nothing to say EXCEPT to bash on Dougal's post. I actually did not say that Shimano sucked, that was another person, whom I quoted and responded about the Magura piece of his reply. Because I like Magura, but not as much as I like Hayes Dominion.

You might want to look where you're pointing the blame. You deserved the negative rep. Cheers!


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

ColinL said:


> *You* showed up here with nothing to say EXCEPT to bash on Dougal's post.
> You might want to look where you're pointing the blame. You deserved the negative rep. Cheers!


I said what I said and it wasn't nothing.
I pointed out, that he clearly is advertising a product, furthermore, as distributor, which shouldn't be done here.



ColinL said:


> I actually did not say that Shimano sucked.


Oh really?
What about that then?


ColinL said:


> you're a self-proclaimed MTB brakes' (sic) specialist who puts XTR brakes in their signature


You wanted to say, that XTR are bad or that I don't know anything about brakes, because I don't have Dominion or because I have XTR on my bike?
So pathetic.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Groove_c said:


> You wanted to say, that XTR are bad or that I don't know anything about brakes, because I don't have Dominion or because I have XTR on my bike? So pathetic.


is English your first language? I suspect it isn't. whether it is or not, you are projecting things that I haven't said. the reason I commented on your signature and your title, both of which you created in your profile on MTBR, is because it's weird.

"*brakes' specialist*" does not need an apostrophe as you have it in your profile. just brakes specialist will do.

then we have your signature. there are other users who put bike info and even components in their signature. forks, wheels, I've even seen folks putting the weight of their bike and some former bikes they used to own but now have sold.

but you only have one component, your XTR trail brakes, and you actually included the specific Shimano part numbers. that's just strange. I mean, are we supposed to look at that and think - wow, he has XTR brakes? but what model? they've made XTR brakes a long long time, but XTR Trail not as long... OOOHHH that model, how awesome! 

just go away, troll. and have a happy thanksgiving while you're at it.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Groove_c said:


> I said what I said and it wasn't nothing.
> I pointed out, that he clearly is advertising a product, furthermore, as distributor, which shouldn't be done here.
> 
> Oh really?
> ...


Why don't you just go back to your Shimano threads? 
You have brought 0 value to this forum. You have no experience whatsoever with the Dominions.
At least my comment was based on my personal experience (I have owned at least 4 pairs of XTRs, besides other brakes)


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

ColinL said:


> is English your first language? I suspect it isn't. whether it is or not, you are projecting things that I haven't said. the reason I commented on your signature and your title, both of which you created in your profile on MTBR, is because it's weird.
> 
> "*brakes' specialist*" does not need an apostrophe as you have it in your profile. just brakes specialist will do.
> 
> ...


Whether english is my native language or not, has nothing to do with bikes/brakes.
I don't have to justify myself in front of you.

I put in my signature what I want and I don't have to ask permission what to put there.
Everyone decides what to put in their signature.
I wanted to have my brakes there, so they're there.
There is nothing weird. It's just to make it clear that they are 4-pot version, that's it.


jazzanova said:


> Why don't you just go back to your Shimano threads?


You're not the one, who will tell what and where to post.


jazzanova said:


> You have brought 0 value to this forum. You have no experience whatsoever with the Dominions.


Have I said somewhere that I have experience with them? Bad experience? No.
But that doesn't mean I have no experience with them, which you already assume to be the case, for some reason.
Don't know why you've written this.


jazzanova said:


> At least my comment was based on my personal experience (I have owned at least 4 pairs of XTRs, besides other brakes)


Then I can understand your pain associated to Shimano brakes.
For my part, I never had any troubles with any of mine.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Groove_c said:


> Following such a logic, one could then also say, that Dominion are nowhere near Trickstuff Diretissima, which cost even more.
> 
> It's always about price/performance.


Why do you assume that? I would love to see a head to head comparison between those two.

Sometimes you're paying for what you get. Sometimes you're paying a lot more for small volume runs.



Groove_c said:


> I said what I said and it wasn't nothing.
> I pointed out, that he clearly is advertising a product, furthermore, as distributor, which shouldn't be done here.


The rule is that reps must declare their interest. Which I do in my signature, I'd like to write more but it's at the character limit already.

I'm completely up front about that and always have been. I'm also a test rider who has been on Dominion prototypes for a significant amount of time and I have direct contact with the Engineers who designed it. So I'm in a very good position to help users with setup and other issues.

Which is exactly what I do here.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Dougal said:


> Why do you assume that? I would love to see a head to head comparison between those two.
> 
> Sometimes you're paying for what you get. Sometimes you're paying a lot more for small volume runs.


I'm aware of the fact, that the result of their performance isn't on par with their price.
They're overpriced.
But they're manufactured on demand only. So the production is limited and is in Germany, not in China.
This is where the final price comes from. But it's still not justified.
To pay such a price for them or not is up to the user. 


Dougal said:


> The rule is that reps must declare their interest. Which I do in my signature.
> I'm completely up front about that and always have been.


Didn't know about this and haven't paid enough attention to your signature.
Good to know.


Dougal said:


> So I'm in a very good position to help users with setup and other issues.
> Which is exactly what I do here.


Then it's good to have somebody that has direct contact to the engineers and can provide good advises first hand.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Groove_c said:


> I'm aware of the fact, that the result of their performance isn't on par with their price.
> They're overpriced.
> But they're manufactured on demand only. So the production is limited and is in Germany, not in China.


Who is making brakes in China?


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Dougal said:


> Who is making brakes in China?


I would assume nobody.
I said this just to underline the main reason for Direttissima's cost (Germany).


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

Anyone know if the sram bleed kit works with the dominions?

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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

gus6464 said:


> Anyone know if the sram bleed kit works with the dominions?
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


I would assume not. Are most bleed kits specific to the brake?


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> I would assume not. Are most bleed kits specific to the brake?


Someone said it was an m5 screw on the bleed ports which is the same as the regular sram.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gus6464 said:


> Anyone know if the sram bleed kit works with the dominions?
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


Yes it will work. Fittings are the same. But you should invest in some better fluid. Dot5.1


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Yes it will work. Fittings are the same. But you should invest in some better fluid. Dot5.1


Yeah I use Motul dot 5.1 already on all the dot brakes that I have.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

The Avid Pro Bleed Kit will not work without modification. The fitting that screws into the caliper is too large and hits the caliper body before making a seal.










I ended up using a dremel to good effect. Now I have the Hayes bleed kit, so no worries about grabbing the un-modded fitting for the caliper by mistake.

The Avid syringe is far superior, but the hoses are different sizes and different fittings, so a direct swap is not possible. That would be the best of both worlds. Going to have to see what I can come up with to put the Hayes fittings onto the Avid syringe assembly.


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

I have the bleed kit.com one which is much thinner at the barrel so should fit.










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## mike_of_earth (Aug 1, 2016)

Am I over thinking the bleed process? How am I supposed to bleed these brakes with internal cabling? I'm not sure I can get the angles right without putting the MC on a different bar like the instructions recommend. 

I'm considering gluing some external cable guides to make it easier to pull the whole system for bleeds.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

mike_of_earth said:


> Am I over thinking the bleed process? How am I supposed to bleed these brakes with internal cabling? I'm not sure I can get the angles right without putting the MC on a different bar like the instructions recommend.
> 
> I'm considering gluing some external cable guides to make it easier to pull the whole system for bleeds.


You will get best results if you are removing bubbles at the highest point in the system.

Internal cabling doesn't change things much. Even though someone with external brake hose could remove all their zip ties to move the caliper higher it's generally not worth the time. No matter how the hose is run you can just clamp the bike in a stand and rotate it as much as you need to make the caliper higher than the brake lever if you're pulling at the caliper.

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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

mike_of_earth said:


> Am I over thinking the bleed process?


Not overthinking... lack of understanding how air bubbles behave within a small irregular hose containing a viscous fluid.

Leave the brakes on the bike, rotate the lever if that makes you happy. Push all the old fluid out, then push a new syringe full of clean fluid to push back and forth until all the bubbles are gone.

Or just follow the instructions. But don't remove the internally routed HOSE from the bike. That's totally unnecessary.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

RustyIron said:


> Not overthinking... lack of understanding how air bubbles behave within a small irregular hose containing a viscous fluid.
> 
> Leave the brakes on the bike, rotate the lever if that makes you happy. Push all the old fluid out, then push a new syringe full of clean fluid to push back and forth until all the bubbles are gone.
> 
> *Or just follow the instructions. * But don't remove the internally routed HOSE from the bike. That's totally unnecessary.


You were kind of mean, to be honest. Why would you assume he doesn't know how air behaves?

You're also wrong, in that he *is* attempting to follow the instructions. It had been over a year since I watched the video, but I vaguely remembered Hayes talking about removing the lever and caliper from the bike.

And sure enough, it's there, around 2:50-





Now, as to the necessity, I do agree with that because as I stated you can just rotate the bike in a stand. It doesn't have to be a straight vertical path between the low and high point when bleeding. Anywhere above is better than below, and somewhere around 45 degrees is usually enough to ensure all the air bubbles get moving.


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## mike_of_earth (Aug 1, 2016)

^ Thanks to both of you. So, like many things, I tend to go all literal with the instructions. So, Bleeding from the MC I can put the bike in the stand with the rear wheel on the floor. When I get to the caliper, set the stand so the front tire is touching the floor, pull the caliper off the post mount to get it fully perpendicular to the ground and proceed. Sound about right?

Never done a bleed before, so this will be a first. 
First I need to push all the fluid out before I run the line up the downtube from the caliper side. Is it easier to push the fluid out from the MC end or from the caliper end?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mike_of_earth said:


> Am I over thinking the bleed process? How am I supposed to bleed these brakes with internal cabling? I'm not sure I can get the angles right without putting the MC on a different bar like the instructions recommend.
> 
> I'm considering gluing some external cable guides to make it easier to pull the whole system for bleeds.


Yes you're over-thinking it. The Dominions bleed with the levers down at the angle you run them. I am not a fan of internal cable routing, but once you've got them installed, and not tapping the frame inside, you're good.

Put the syringes on, one full of fluid, pump and suck fluid through in both directions to chase all the air out. Be careful to not introduce new air.

Use the bleeding block to set the piston protrusion. This takes care of the correct fluid volume in the bladder reservoir when you're done.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

mike_of_earth said:


> Sound about right?


Far be it from me to suggest methodology that deviates from the cherished Youtube videos... but... don't knock yourself out trying to get everything vertical. The surface tension of the brake fluid is greater than the gravitational force that forces the fluid down and the air bubble up. In other words, you can have a tiny bubble that's stuck in a hose, and the hose is vertical, but the bubble will stay there indefinitely. The bubble will move if you push the fluid through the hose, but if you don't move the fluid, it will stay there forever. Focus on pushing the fluid.



mike_of_earth said:


> First I need to push all the fluid out before I run the line up the downtube from the caliper side. Is it easier to push the fluid out from the MC end or from the caliper end?


That's how I start. Push it bottom to top. Then I throw out all the dirty old fluid and put on another nearly-full syringe. Now everything is clean. Push it bottom to top again. Then push it top to bottom. Do this several times until you are fairly certain there are no bubbles.



mike_of_earth said:


> Never done a bleed before, so this will be a first.


Have fun with it. Don't stress. It's not rocket science. With a little attention to detail, you'll do better than the majority of bike shops.


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

And buy quality dot 5.1. Motul is dirt cheap at motorcycle shops or car dealerships and way better than any mtb branded one.



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## mike_of_earth (Aug 1, 2016)

RustyIron said:


> Or just follow the instructions. But don't remove the internally routed HOSE from the bike. That's totally unnecessary.


Yeah, once the internal hose is in there, it's staying.



gus6464 said:


> And buy quality dot 5.1. Motul is dirt cheap at motorcycle shops or car dealerships and way better than any mtb branded one.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


I bought the bleed kit from Hayes, so it comes with some MTB stuff. Next bleed will be with something like you recommend.



Dougal said:


> Yes you're over-thinking it. The Dominions bleed with the levers down at the angle you run them. I am not a fan of internal cable routing, but once you've got them installed, and not tapping the frame inside, you're good.


Alchemy gave me some padded tubes to run cables through.. hopefully that keeps em quiet.



Dougal said:


> Put the syringes on, one full of fluid, pump and suck fluid through in both directions to chase all the air out. Be careful to not introduce new air.
> 
> Use the bleeding block to set the piston protrusion. This takes care of the correct fluid volume in the bladder reservoir when you're done.


Thanks!



RustyIron said:


> That's how I start. Push it bottom to top. Then I throw out all the dirty old fluid and put on another nearly-full syringe. Now everything is clean. Push it bottom to top again. Then push it top to bottom. Do this several times until you are fairly certain there are no bubbles.
> 
> Have fun with it. Don't stress. It's not rocket science. With a little attention to detail, you'll do better than the majority of bike shops.


Awesome. So, one other question;
1. In the pdf for bleeding, they connect both the syringes to the caliper after you've bled from the MC. Is that necessary for a standard bleed? Steps 10 / 11 in the pdf. Is that what sets the piston protrusion?


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

mike_of_earth said:


> Yeah, once the internal hose is in there, it's staying.
> 
> 1. In the pdf for bleeding, they connect both the syringes to the caliper after you've bled from the MC. Is that necessary for a standard bleed? Steps 10 / 11 in the pdf. Is that what sets the piston protrusion?


That's so you can bleed both sides of the caliper pistons for a more perfect bleed. Since you cutting cables just might as well do a complete full bleed.


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

So I got my Dominions and the bleedkit.com sram older version bleedkit fits perfectly with no modifications.

I also noticed that the brake levers are identical on both sides. Why didn't Hayes just make one SKU and have people flip them over like Magura?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gus6464 said:


> I also noticed that the brake levers are identical on both sides. Why didn't Hayes just make one SKU and have people flip them over like Magura?


Rear brake has a longer hose. That's the only difference in the two SKU's.


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## mike_of_earth (Aug 1, 2016)

So... when bleeding, do you guys get a slow drip from the MC. I can't tell exactly where it's coming from, but it seems like its from the threaded intersection with the syringe.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

mike_of_earth said:


> So... when bleeding, do you guys get a slow drip from the MC. I can't tell exactly where it's coming from, but it seems like its from the threaded intersection with the syringe.


you shouldn't have a drip.

the most likely place to leak is the hose if the barb + olive is not sealing, or you haven't torqued the nut sufficiently. the best way to test for this type of leakage is to remove the syringe and put the cover / bolt back in. then test the brake. if it leaks, you'll know.

the next most likely is your syringe leaking especially if you have multiple fittings. this may not be a big deal.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

I am trying to source a 180-203 post mount adaptor for my Rockshox pike.
Does anyone know the part number or the place which sells them?


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

jazzanova said:


> I am trying to source a 180-203 post mount adaptor for my Rockshox pike.
> Does anyone know the part number or the place which sells them?


If you can't find the Hayes one just get the Hope one. H mount version.

https://www.jensonusa.com/Hope-Disc-Brake-Adaptor

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## mike_of_earth (Aug 1, 2016)

I purchased the Paul components one from here..
https://www.paulcomp.com/shop/components/mounting-solutions/disc-adapter/disc-adapter/

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## Ice-Bear (Nov 9, 2019)

jazzanova said:


> I am trying to source a 180-203 post mount adaptor for my Rockshox pike.
> Does anyone know the part number or the place which sells them?


Just get the exact one from Hayes:

https://shop.hayesperformance.com/c...racket-for-160mm-rotor?variant=31135026577444


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## mike_of_earth (Aug 1, 2016)

Finally finished my new bike build. Thanks for all the help! I've only taken a few spins around the block, so I'm still breaking them in, but overall I'm impressed.

Coming from Hope E4s, these feel very similar in both modulation and power. The rear brake pulls almost to the bar but I'm used to that with my hopes too. They're quieter than the hopes on sintered pads so far, and I didn't find the bleed process to be too much of a hassle.

Need some time on the mountain, but thus far I think Hayes nailed it 

EDIT - I bled the brakes again (2nd round) and took it on it's maiden voyage today. Brakes now engage much earlier into the lever, and full lock is well before the bar.

Sent from my Sony Xperia 1 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

We're getting positive feedback from a market segment who I didn't think would fully appreciate these brakes. Women.

It's not the huge power they're liking, because not many of them need that. It's the fine control they like. Reporting being able to smoothly ride down technical sections that were always grabby and jerky before.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Dominion A4 vs. rest

I think that "lev" means leverage.

Shimano Servo-Wave technology is not factored in.
The table doesn't factor in rotors and pads.
It's purely about pistons' size and system leverage.

SRAM Code
Formula Cura 4
Hope Tech V4
Trickstuff Direttissima
Hayes Dominon A4
Magura MT7/MT5
Shimano XT M8020

Hope Tech V4 caliper with SRAM Code lever
Hope Tech V4 caliper with Hayes Domnion A4 lever


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

NSMB Reviews are up: https://nsmb.com/articles/hayes-dominion-a4-brake-review/

Interesting review, one tester loved the sintered metallic pads, the other the semi-metallic.

Cam McRae's comment on preferring deeper hook levers makes me wonder if he'd like the J-Unit SFL lever blades. I have a set here I need to photograph beside the normal levers to show the differences.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Groove_c said:


> Dominion A4 vs. rest
> 
> I think that "lev" means leverage.
> 
> ...


Interesting results. The Dominions are running higher hydraulic leverage than anyone else. Any idea where on the levers they measured the mechanical leverage?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Interesting results. The Dominions are running higher hydraulic leverage than anyone else. *Any idea where on the levers they measured the mechanical leverage?*


hmm that's a very interesting question. one would hope that they measured it in the center of the 'hook' on the lever, where your finger would be.

but if for some reason they did measure from the end of the lever that would be quite different.


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

For those of you who haven't already heard it, the latest CyclingTips Nerd Alert podcast features a highly informative and interesting interview with a Hayes brake engineer

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/02/nerd-alert-podcast-how-to-make-the-perfect-disc-brake/
_
"This week, James chats with brake engineer John Thomas about the difficulties in perfecting disc brakes, and how the very nature of the way we put bikes together these days makes it almost impossible to make them completely silent. "_


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## gnarzt (Jan 30, 2020)

I have decided to order the Dominion A4’s to put on my new Alchemy Arktos ST I am building up.

My question is regarding rotors. My bike came with a DT Swiss wheelset and the hubs are centerlock. Currently there are new 180mm Shimano RT70 rotors installed on my wheels. 

I know the shimano rotors are a bit thin compared to the Hayes ones. I’d rather not use 6 bolt adapters (seem like extra hassle and more things to go wrong) in order to run the Hayes D series rotors, are there other centerlock rotors that would be better than the ones I have? How about the Magura Storm CL? They are 2mm thick which is really close the the Hayes (1.95 ?). Or just run my Shimano ones for now? 

End game is different wheels with 6 bolt hubs and Hayes rotors, but that’s probably late summer at the earliest. Sorry for the wall of text 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtb_phd (Jun 28, 2017)

Maybe just stick with the Shimano rotors until they are smoked? They are pretty thin, but also pretty light. I assume the weight is why people buy them?

After that, try some larger, thicker rotors! https://mtbphd.com/2019/08/18/3-reasons-why-you-should-have-bigger-rotors/

The Hayes rotors are good. The Magura Storm rotors are also good (haven't tried CL).


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

I've got DT Swiss centerlock hubs and went with DT's centerlock to 6 bolt adapter. No issues, light weight compared to the Shimano adapter, simple to install, and you can use the proper rotors.


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## mike_of_earth (Aug 1, 2016)

gnarzt said:


> I have decided to order the Dominion A4's to put on my new Alchemy Arktos ST I am building up.
> 
> My question is regarding rotors. My bike came with a DT Swiss wheelset and the hubs are centerlock. Currently there are new 180mm Shimano RT70 rotors installed on my wheels.
> 
> ...


I'd use adapters. I didn't need them myself, but from what I've read I think the bigger issue would be using non-hayes rotors. Some have had success, but to me it's a bigger gamble than some adapters.

Sent from my J8170 using Tapatalk


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## gnarzt (Jan 30, 2020)

Okay, adapters and Hayes rotors it is. Now to explain to the boss why my brand new bike needs more new parts... I guess I can sell the Shimano ones to offset some of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

gnarzt said:


> Okay, adapters and Hayes rotors it is. Now to explain to the boss why my brand new bike needs more new parts... I guess I can sell the Shimano ones to offset some of it.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good call. I'd use adapters so I could run the rotors the brake was designed with. As well as width being a factor, noise & vibration is also a factor.

Here's a great podcast that interviews a Hayes brake engineer
https://cyclingtips.com/2020/02/nerd-alert-podcast-how-to-make-the-perfect-disc-brake/


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## mike_of_earth (Aug 1, 2016)

Still Loving my new build and brakes. The modulation and power is awesome.

I have developed a slight squeak on one of the levers (when releasing). Is it okay if I spray a pinch of WD-40 on the hinge to see if that stops it? I don't want to mess anything up.

Sent from my J8170 using Tapatalk


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## jabber127 (Jan 26, 2016)

mike_of_earth said:


> Still Loving my new build and brakes. The modulation and power is awesome.
> 
> I have developed a slight squeak on one of the levers (when releasing). Is it okay if I spray a pinch of WD-40 on the hinge to see if that stops it? I don't want to mess anything up.
> 
> Sent from my J8170 using Tapatalk


Same. I put a bit of tri flow on mine a few months ago. No worries since.


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

mike_of_earth said:


> Still Loving my new build and brakes. The modulation and power is awesome.
> 
> I have developed a slight squeak on one of the levers (when releasing). Is it okay if I spray a pinch of WD-40 on the hinge to see if that stops it? I don't want to mess anything up.
> 
> Sent from my J8170 using Tapatalk


I'd use the wd40 specialist dry lube spray. The ptfe one would work.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

jabber127 said:


> Same. I put a bit of tri flow on mine a few months ago. No worries since.


I've got the same happening with mine. Where did you apply lube? Right on to the pivot bearing?


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

justin83 said:


> I've got the same happening with mine. Where did you apply lube? Right on to the pivot bearing?


It's super easy to remove the lever. Unscrew and remove, then apply a bit of grease on the joint. Less than a 5min job.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mike_of_earth said:


> Still Loving my new build and brakes. The modulation and power is awesome.
> 
> I have developed a slight squeak on one of the levers (when releasing). Is it okay if I spray a pinch of WD-40 on the hinge to see if that stops it? I don't want to mess anything up.
> 
> Sent from my J8170 using Tapatalk





justin83 said:


> I've got the same happening with mine. Where did you apply lube? Right on to the pivot bearing?





jazzanova said:


> It's super easy to remove the lever. Unscrew and remove, then apply a bit of grease on the joint. Less than a 5min job.


It's probably the ball joint on the end of the plunger. Undo the lever screws and the whole assembly slides out (while the rest of the brake stays nicely together).

Clean it, tiny dab of grease and good to go for another year.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Squeak advice from Hayes Engineers.

In dry and dusty conditions the lever to push-rod pivot can develop a little squeak. A drop or two of Triflow is the cure.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

This thread 1st got me interested in these brakes. I’ve read a lot of other reviews and I don’t think I saw any negatives except the bite point adjustment, which for my use seems to be perfect. 

These replaced Shimano XT 4 pot brakes with shimano 203mm Rotors front and rear. No problem what’s so ever with these. I needed brakes for another build I’m doing, so I upgraded to these for my main ride. 

I reused the Shimano 203mm rotors without any issues. Installation was pretty easy and bleeding using the 2 syringes method was a piece of cake. 

I was able to get the lever engagement exactly were I wanted it and no matter how steep the downhills, the brakes engagement stayed the same. Power in my opinion is right there with some of the strongest contenders out there I’ve tried: Saints, TRP and Codes. 

I’m impressed with these brakes and a nice added bonus, these come with extra set of pads! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SoCal-Rider (May 25, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> This thread 1st got me interested in these brakes. I've read a lot of other reviews and I don't think I saw any negatives except the bite point adjustment, which for my use seems to be perfect.
> 
> These replaced Shimano XT 4 pot brakes with shimano 203mm Rotors front and rear. No problem what's so ever with these. I needed brakes for another build I'm doing, so I upgraded to these for my main ride.
> 
> ...


I just pulled the trigger on a set of these too. They should arrive by Friday. I hope they live up to the hype. I bought the Hayes rotors too to make sure to give them the fairest shake.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> This thread 1st got me interested in these brakes. I've read a lot of other reviews and I don't think I saw any negatives except the bite point adjustment, which for my use seems to be perfect.
> 
> These replaced Shimano XT 4 pot brakes with shimano 203mm Rotors front and rear. No problem what's so ever with these. I needed brakes for another build I'm doing, so I upgraded to these for my main ride.
> 
> ...


I had this problem initially, but I know how to deal with it.
The reason why it was happening: dry pistons not retracting properly or pads not being aligned with the rotor. Easy fix.
The brakes are great. The lightest actuation in the industry. Lots of power.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

SoCal-Rider said:


> I just pulled the trigger on a set of these too. They should arrive by Friday. I hope they live up to the hype. I bought the Hayes rotors too to make sure to give them the fairest shake.


SoCal, I did the steep trails in Aliso Woods and these brakes worked flawless. Good choice for brakes!


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

I've had these brakes for about two weeks now, done 7 rides with them. Very impressed so far. Really not much to say, I can't complain about anything... so boring.

During the bed in process with the metallic pads and new Hayes rotors they made horrible noises when I pulled the lever too hard before they were fully bed in, which took longer than I am used to (I did two shuttle laps down a 600' road descent). Once that was complete though it was good, and they were silent except for a small amount of noise with very light braking and very low speeds. Even that is gone now. Like I said, boring brakes. 

The dual bleed ports and the caliper alignment thing is really cool.

The brakes are very strong. 

Compared to a non-servo wave XTR brake, the lever isn't as firm but the power is like quadruple so I don't really notice when I'm actually riding. Lever feels about the same stiffness as most other brakes, like a good Code RSC. 

There is quite a bit of free stroke, but the pads start moving nearly instantly. All the free stroke must be seal rollback, which is good in that it keeps the pads from rubbing but it means you can't really get rid of it if you want brakes that engage instantly (but then it would also be rubbing all the time). The Hayes guy said in some podcast that the more leverage you have the more free stroke you get in terms of mm of lever travel at the tip so it all makes sense.

In the box was a bleed block and both pad compounds. Thank you Hayes for including both pads and the bleed block!


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

Has anyone tried the Dominion A2's yet? I've had 2 sets of Dominion A4's and love them. Best brakes I've ever owned!

Considering some A2's on a lighter XC-ish build.


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## SoCal-Rider (May 25, 2009)

LCW said:


> Has anyone tried the Dominion A2's yet? I've had 2 sets of Dominion A4's and love them. Best brakes I've ever owned!
> 
> Considering some A2's on a lighter XC-ish build.


Hayes website specs state the A4 is only 7g heavier than the A2 (310g vs 303g). Why bother? If nothing else you'd have to deal with a different set of pads in your spares.


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## Ice-Bear (Nov 9, 2019)

LCW said:


> Has anyone tried the Dominion A2's yet? I've had 2 sets of Dominion A4's and love them. Best brakes I've ever owned!
> 
> Considering some A2's on a lighter XC-ish build.


I have the A2s on a SB100 with 7" rotors and they work great. After having A4s for about a year I cannot see riding anything other than Dominion Brakes.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

Just finished up a fat bike build. Taken a long time to finish it but have put on about 300 miles. I purchased a set of a4s over a year ago, just now getting to use them. They are so good. So smooth and powerful. Another brake set would have to really be fantastic for me to want to use something else. I am a hayes brake man now.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

SoCal-Rider said:


> Hayes website specs state the A4 is only 7g heavier than the A2 (310g vs 303g). Why bother? If nothing else you'd have to deal with a different set of pads in your spares.


that was my assessment exactly.

if/when I replace the Guide T's on my 13 y/o son's bike I will buy the A4. first of all, he rides a 160/150mm travel bike, and he's going very nearly as fast as me downhill so it's totally justified to use the A4 over the A2 anyway.


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## RAG2 (Sep 4, 2017)

Sorry, I read through maybe 80 posts before I gave up looking. How are people finding these brakes get along with 1.8 mm rotors? I have Centerlock hubs, and nearly new XTR and Formula CL rotors on hand, so I want.my brakes to work well with these rotors. My hope is that 1.8mm rotors would work as long as they are tossed before they get worn down very far...


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## RAG2 (Sep 4, 2017)

justin83 said:


> I've got DT Swiss centerlock hubs and went with DT's centerlock to 6 bolt adapter. No issues, light weight compared to the Shimano adapter, simple to install, and you can use the proper rotors.


Well shoot, sounds like this would need to be the solution.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I started with nearly new XT rotors and then switched to Hayes rotors. Big improvement. Dead stroke was much bigger with Shimano rotors. I have Centerlock hubs so I wasn't happy to go with 6-bolt rotors using adapters, but it was worth IMO.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

RAG2 said:


> I have Centerlock hubs, and nearly new XTR and Formula CL rotors on hand, so I want.my brakes to work well with these rotors.


Yes, your new brakes will work perfectly fine with these rotors. Dead stroke is the result of pad retraction. I can assure you that the pads retract exactly the same for the Hayes, Shimano, and Formula rotors.

Just stay away from Shimano's Freeza rotors. There's insufficient clearance between the heat sinks and the caliper.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

Ice-Bear said:


> I have the A2s on a SB100 with 7" rotors and they work great. After having A4s for about a year I cannot see riding anything other than Dominion Brakes.


So true - I won't get any other brakes. I looked to maybe get some A2's but Hayes lists them as only 7g lighter per assembly.

A4's are just amazing. You know a brake set is good when you ride and never even have to think about them.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LCW said:


> So true - I won't get any other brakes. I looked to maybe get some A2's but Hayes lists them as only 7g lighter per assembly.
> 
> A4's are just amazing. You know a brake set is good when you ride and never even have to think about them.


Yeah it'd be nice if they could lighten the A2 up a bit.

I really like the feel of the Radar they made for a few years and think that'd make a great kids brake. But the Radar lever doesn't fit small hands like the Dominion SFL ones do.


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## onlybirdman (Feb 12, 2015)

Dougal said:


> NSMB Reviews are up: https://nsmb.com/articles/hayes-dominion-a4-brake-review/
> 
> Interesting review, one tester loved the sintered metallic pads, the other the semi-metallic.
> 
> Cam McRae's comment on preferring deeper hook levers makes me wonder if he'd like the J-Unit SFL lever blades. I have a set here I need to photograph beside the normal levers to show the differences.


Hi, can you share some comparison between the regular and the SFL levers? Thanks.


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## onlybirdman (Feb 12, 2015)

onlybirdman said:


> Hi, can you share some comparison between the regular and the SFL levers? Thanks.


Seems like the SFL lever just extends inward towards the bar, and also shorter lever, correct?


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## Roto599 (Jan 3, 2010)

Hi, a stupid newbie question as have not installed hydraulic brakes to a frame with internal routing before (about to install the Dominions on an Ibis Ripley 4 frame): I assume I cut the rear brake hose close to the lever and feed through the frame from rear - but do I have to worry about DOT fluid drops possibly leaking into the frame while feeding the cut hose through it? Thanks!


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## mike_of_earth (Aug 1, 2016)

Yes, it will drip. Easiest thing to do is to plug the line with a nail or something.


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## Headoc (Mar 24, 2015)

I have ordered a pair of dominions but am having trouble getting a hold of a bleed kit. Will a SRAM bleed kit work with the Hayes? Any other options that have worked well. Looks like you just need a screw in attachment.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Headoc said:


> I have ordered a pair of dominions but am having trouble getting a hold of a bleed kit. Will a SRAM bleed kit work with the Hayes? Any other options that have worked well. Looks like you just need a screw in attachment.


Yes SRAM uses the same M5 bleed fittings.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Headoc said:


> Will a SRAM bleed kit work with the Hayes? Any other options that have worked well. Looks like you just need a screw in attachment.


Although the thread pitch is the same, the Hayes caliper requires a fitting with a longer reach. I have a couple "Amazon" bleed kits, one of which has the long-reach fittings. They drip a little, so I need to be careful.

You can go cheap, like I did, and endure the added frustration, or buy the correct kit at Jenson for $32.99. I JUST bled my brakes last week, so I won't need to do it again for six months. I think next time around I'll try out the Hayes kit and see how it does.


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## Headoc (Mar 24, 2015)

Thanks guys. Ironically I set up the front brake without any problems and the pre-bleed from Hayes was just about perfect. Cut the rear brake hose and ran it through the frame plugged. Hooked up to the lever only spilling a tiny amount of DOT fluid. Hooked everything up and they feel just perfect at the bar. Both brakes equal and firm, not spongy at all. Will bed them in tomorrow and see. Think I can hold off until I get a hold of a Hayes bleed kit. Regardless these things are incredible just right off the bat. Don't know what Hayes did to get piston movement with that light of a lever action but damn its pretty sweet. Can't wait to ride this weekend.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

Yes that lever action and silky smooth feel. And a boatload of power. I luv em.


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## SoCal-Rider (May 25, 2009)

I've had these brakes a month or so now and I'm in the same position [mention]jazzanova [/mention] seemed to be with his Dominions at one point. I've been fighting the wandering bite point since day 1. Seems like after every downhill I need to adjust the levers a little bit one way or the other.

I'm now on a bike trip to southern Utah and it's been brake drama almost every ride. Howling front brake on the first ride so I changed the front pads and wiped the rotor with alcohol for the next ride. Ok for a few miles then howling again. Changed the front rotor and it went away. Ok I'll chalk it up to something getting on the rotor during the drive. Not the brakes fault but still annoying.

Next day's ride and get caught in a downpour on the drive to the TH. During the ride the levers start squeaking loudly with every pull. Lubed them up back at the truck and squeak is gone. Again not really a fault with the brakes, but nobody else's Shimanos squeaked.

Finally had a relatively drama free last ride but still had to adjust the levers a bit. Rear brake is maxed out on + adjustment at this point. I really don't feel like bleeding them in the campground, so I'm hoping it stabilizes.

Before the trip I did the piston reset multiple times to lube the seals/pistons. Bled the rear again and got quite a few bubbles out. Fronts seemed ok, so didn't bleed them. After this on the stand and a quick parking lot test, the brakes felt great. No mushy lever. Bite point perfect. I was optimistic I was all set for the trip.

At this time I'm frustrated with the Dominions but not giving up just yet. I'll work on bleeding them thoroughly again when I get home. Maybe I somehow didn't get all the air out even though I cycled the syringes a bunch and did both caliper ports. (I am using the bleed block and fresh Hayes fluid.) For the brief moments these brakes work correctly they feel great, so I'm hoping there's a light at the end of this tunnel.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

I will say this - you have to bleed Dominions very thoroughly and should follow Hayes’ procedure to a tee. Don’t skip the caliper bleed either. Trust me once you do you’ll be glad. I tried to bleed them too quickly once and had issues with the lever feel. You need a good bleed. Once I did that, solid as a rock.

PS - One small trick I did for the rear because of the longer length of hose was use the thin side of the red plastic pad spacer when bleeding. Don’t use the rotor as the “spacer”.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

SoCal-Rider said:


> I've had these brakes a month or so now and I'm in the same position [mention]jazzanova [/mention] seemed to be with his Dominions at one point. I've been fighting the wandering bite point since day 1. Seems like after every downhill I need to adjust the levers a little bit one way or the other.
> 
> I'm now on a bike trip to southern Utah and it's been brake drama almost every ride. Howling front brake on the first ride so I changed the front pads and wiped the rotor with alcohol for the next ride. Ok for a few miles then howling again. Changed the front rotor and it went away. Ok I'll chalk it up to something getting on the rotor during the drive. Not the brakes fault but still annoying.
> 
> ...


SoCAl-Rider you definitely still have air in the system. When you get back from your trip, call me and I'll give you a hand on the bleed.


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## SoCal-Rider (May 25, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> SoCAl-Rider you definitely still have air in the system. When you get back from your trip, call me and I'll give you a hand on the bleed.


Thx. I'll give you a call when I get back.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

SoCal-Rider said:


> I've had these brakes a month or so now and I'm in the same position [mention]jazzanova [/mention] seemed to be with his Dominions at one point. I've been fighting the wandering bite point since day 1. Seems like after every downhill I need to adjust the levers a little bit one way or the other.
> 
> I'm now on a bike trip to southern Utah and it's been brake drama almost every ride. Howling front brake on the first ride so I changed the front pads and wiped the rotor with alcohol for the next ride. Ok for a few miles then howling again. Changed the front rotor and it went away. Ok I'll chalk it up to something getting on the rotor during the drive. Not the brakes fault but still annoying.
> 
> ...


Did you exercise the pistons?
I solved my problem with cleaning and lubricating them. I have to do it regularly in order to keep them working properly. Not a big deal, it's an easy precudure.
If you have the Hayes bleed kit use the one side block, which let's you retract the pistons on one side to clean and lubricate.
Exercise them several times to make sure they move out freely without hesitation.
This has always solved the wandering point of engagement for me.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

SoCal-Rider said:


> I've had these brakes a month or so now and I'm in the same position [mention]jazzanova [/mention] seemed to be with his Dominions at one point. I've been fighting the wandering bite point since day 1. Seems like after every downhill I need to adjust the levers a little bit one way or the other.
> 
> I'm now on a bike trip to southern Utah and it's been brake drama almost every ride. Howling front brake on the first ride so I changed the front pads and wiped the rotor with alcohol for the next ride. Ok for a few miles then howling again. Changed the front rotor and it went away. Ok I'll chalk it up to something getting on the rotor during the drive. Not the brakes fault but still annoying.
> 
> ...


honest question - how many times, previous to installing the Dominion A4 set, have you installed all-new brakes including cutting hoses and bleeding them? 100% your effort as you've done this time, no involvement from anyone else.

I ask this because I could have written your very post 10 years ago. I had the same experiences with magura and shimano brakes at that time. there are particular things to do in order to bleed a brake well, and there are some key differences between different models, and it's pretty easy to end up with an improperly bled system.

even with a lot more experience, I still didn't have a perfect bleed initially with my Dominions. I posted about that here, over a year ago. since then I've re-bled the system once, after replacing the pads a second time.

do you have a friend who can help? 2 sets of eyes and hands can make a difference. or do you have a local bike shop you trust? it shouldn't matter that they are not 'main' brand brakes; being DOT, they're similar enough to SRAM and every shop has sold bikes with Guide and Level brakes, and worked on them.


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## SoCal-Rider (May 25, 2009)

jazzanova said:


> Did you exercise the pistons?
> I solved my problem with cleaning and lubricating them. I have to do it regularly in order to keep them working properly. Not a big deal, it's an easy precudure.
> If you have the Hayes bleed kit use the one side block, which let's you retract the pistons on one side to clean and lubricate.
> Exercise them several times to make sure they move out freely without hesitation.
> This has always solved the wandering point of engagement for me.


I did exercise the front and rear pistons using the opp. side of the bleed block. Easy enough to do and I was really hoping that would be the cure. Your posts inspired me to do that just before bled the rear before my trip.


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## SoCal-Rider (May 25, 2009)

ColinL said:


> honest question - how many times, previous to installing the Dominion A4 set, have you installed all-new brakes including cutting hoses and bleeding them? 100% your effort as you've done this time, no involvement from anyone else.
> 
> I ask this because I could have written your very post 10 years ago. I had the same experiences with magura and shimano brakes at that time. there are particular things to do in order to bleed a brake well, and there are some key differences between different models, and it's pretty easy to end up with an improperly bled system.
> 
> ...


Fair enough question. I've run Shimano exclusively for 10 years and have set them up with cut lines, bleeding, etc. These are my first DOT brakes bleeding with dual syringes. I'm willing to concede maybe I just didn't do a thorough enough bleed. Mtbbiker has offered to give me a hand so maybe he'll show me something I missed.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

also, in regards to squealing brakes, make sure your rotor is true (which pretty much none of them are, by the time they get to you) and be aware that the sintered metal pads are installed by default. they have the most strength and especially fade resistance, but they will squeal more than the semi-metallic. unlike any other brake I've ever bought, the Dominion comes with both, so you can remove the sintered and install the semi-metallic for less noise.


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## SoCal-Rider (May 25, 2009)

ColinL said:


> also, in regards to squealing brakes, make sure your rotor is true (which pretty much none of them are, by the time they get to you) and be aware that the sintered metal pads are installed by default. they have the most strength and especially fade resistance, but they will squeal more than the semi-metallic. unlike any other brake I've ever bought, the Dominion comes with both, so you can remove the sintered and install the semi-metallic for less noise.


Regarding squealing, in my case it was more of a resonance/vibration from what must've been some contamination on the rotor. Edit: And as I'm typing this, it got me thinking I might have got some tree sap on the rotor. I've been riding in the junipers in SW Utah. I recall having some sap here and there in spots on my bike and gear.

I run the semi-metallic pads and get the occasional slight squeal, but then it goes away. No big deal.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

IME even a tiny bit of contamination from brake fluid will make a rotor squeal interminably under hard braking and of course lose power. I've many times been extremely careful after a bleed to really clean everything up but it still seems all to often that after a bleed I get bad squealing and poor power and hte only solution is new brake pads. 

So yeah, from what I've seen it doesn't take much to ruin a set and have a squealing pig that has very little pad friction. I've heard you can bake it out but I've never tried it as I do have a bad tendency to throw money at my problems.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

If I get brake fluid on newish pads I'd grind them on a grinding stone per hand or a sandpaper, clean with brake cleaner and after 1 longer downhill they work again. Also clean rotors ofc.
May not be like new pads but still don't have to throw them away 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Preston67 said:


> IME even a tiny bit of contamination from brake fluid will make a rotor squeal interminably under hard braking and of course lose power. I've many times been extremely careful after a bleed to really clean everything up but it still seems all to often that after a bleed I get bad squealing and poor power and hte only solution is new brake pads.
> 
> So yeah, from what I've seen it doesn't take much to ruin a set and have a squealing pig that has very little pad friction. I've heard you can bake it out but I've never tried it as I do have a bad tendency to throw money at my problems.





romulin said:


> If I get brake fluid on newish pads I'd grind them on a grinding stone per hand or a sandpaper, clean with brake cleaner and after 1 longer downhill they work again. Also clean rotors ofc.
> May not be like new pads but still don't have to throw them away
> 
> Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


Brake fluid is water soluable. Boiling the pads in a pot of water is a good way to get it out. I haven't had any luck with other methods (washing, heat etc) but boiling works great.

Heat and cleaners work great for oil contamination.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Brake fluid is water soluable. Boiling the pads in a pot of water is a good way to get it out. I haven't had any luck with other methods (washing, heat etc) but boiling works great.
> 
> Heat and cleaners work great for oil contamination.


Interesting tip to boil the pads. Will have to try that.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Related question would there be any issue or disadvantages to running the Hayes Dominion 1.95mm rotor on a Sram setup?


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Not sure on Sram but it works fine on Shimano. The only possible downside is when you have brand new pads there might be too much rub until they wear. But again, using Shimano brakes I've never had a problem.

OTOH I haven't noticed much difference with the thicker rotors, but they can't hurt.
(better heat management, less warping, less noise would be what I"d like to see)


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

I did some searching around the answer seems like it should work, but no mention of rubbing. There also seems to be mxied reviews on better heat management, though it should should be a little harder to warp.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

Just gotta say - the “cross-hair” adjustment (set screw) on the Dominion calipers is simple brilliant and a godsend for really trueing up your calipers. I hope they continue implementing that feature on future brakes.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I changed the frame and had to rebleed the rear brake because of the internally routed brake hose.

Manitou suggests to use another handlerbar at 45 degrees where you attach the lever during bleeding. With internally routed brake hose that will be quite complicated.

But you can just rotate handlebars 90 degrees and rise the front end of the bike. Fixed the handlebars with so they wont rotate. Much simpler.

Also the caliper needs to be vertically, so I just hanged it from seatpost using tape. It was easy bleed.

PS. One lever started to squeak when I release it. What's the cure?


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

arnea said:


> PS. One lever started to squeak when I release it. What's the cure?


Use the universal antianysqueak cure : oil

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

romulin said:


> Use the universal antianysqueak cure : oil


I agree with this. I had one lever start to make noise after a whole lot of hours.

I put some thick lube on it- I used a wet conditions chain lube. If you use something thin (WD-40 is abyssmal) it will quickly migrate out. It's probably supposed to be greased, maybe Dougal has a suggestion, but I haven't had any recurrence.


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## onlybirdman (Feb 12, 2015)

FYI. The thick Dominion hose fits through my Yeti SB100 frame internal routing tunnels just fine. Yes, it is a snug fit, but still pushes through just fine.


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## onlybirdman (Feb 12, 2015)

FYI. The HOPE adapter fits the A4 calipers, 160-203 post mount version.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

onlybirdman said:


> FYI. The thick Dominion hose fits through my Yeti SB100 frame internal routing tunnels just fine. Yes, it is a snug fit, but still pushes through just fine.


It was a tight fit on my Tallboy as well but it went in.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

I just recently replaced my Shimano rotors with Sram Centerline rotors front 220mm and rear 200mm. I'm running sintered pads. The front took 2 hard rides to get the pads bedded in. The rear just took two downhill runs to bed in. I've never experienced this before, I'm thinking it must be the sintered pads. But now with them bedded in, the power is incredible and smooth!


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## Penny (Jul 9, 2006)

If anyone is looking, I just posted a barely ridden pair on Pinkbike.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> I just recently replaced my Shimano rotors with Sram Centerline rotors front 220mm and rear 200mm. I'm running sintered pads. The front took 2 hard rides to get the pads bedded in. The rear just took two downhill runs to bed in. I've never experienced this before, I'm thinking it must be the sintered pads. But now with them bedded in, the power is incredible and smooth!


I ran a set with Shimano XT rotors and my latest set with the D-series Hayes rotors. I gotta say the brakes feel better with the Hayes rotors. They are slightly thicker at 1.9 mm. Zero bedding in issues and it was quick.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Penny said:


> If anyone is looking, I just posted a barely ridden pair on Pinkbike.


Well dang it after 4 months of dithering I just ordered a set full retail last night


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Penny said:


> If anyone is looking, I just posted a barely ridden pair on Pinkbike.


I might. 
Why are you selling and where are they located?

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Penny (Jul 9, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> I might.
> Why are you selling and where are they located?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Colorado. I used them while waiting for a warrantied set to get fixed.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Brake Pad Observation: 

After getting my Dominion A4's, I first ran the Semi-Metallics. They were great. I got 466 miles on the pads before replacement. I'm in Socal, where we have little mud, little water, and a lot of dust. I'm somewhat aggressive in style. They're not dragged, but they're hit hard. 

The second set of pads were Sintered. Performance was also great. There's a little bit of noise after going through the occasional stream. Now they're making a little noise when slammed hard on extended downhills, so I'm looking forward to replacing them with Semi-Metallics. There's still enough material left for a couple hundred more miles of riding, so I checked my log sheet. I have 849 miles on these babies! Holy moley. I've never before seen that kind of milage on pads. 

The Sintered are definitely down for the long haul. I like Semi's better, but I'm really impressed with the longevity of the Sintered.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

been riding my new Dominions for a few weeks now.

Overall impression is I have found my go to brake system.

My brakes have been either Saint, 4 piston XT, Magura MT7 and MT7 with Shimano levers. 

Overall impressions are the MT7 and Hayes have equivalent power which is higher than Saints/XT.

Hayes have the best modulation by far although I've never had a problem with the others, but it IS better with Hayes. 

I don't love the Hayes lever, its a little flat and bulky, very much prefer the shape of the Shimano lever but the Hayes is a bit softer to pull and easy to control.

Biggest win with the Hayes is the pad rollback, I seem to have a lot more problem than other people with warped rotors and dragging brakes, with the MT7's being so poor I moved them to my DH bike despite loving the brakes (with shimano levers). coming off a muddy ride with lots of braking and the wheels spin free. 

I love the grub screws to align the caliper.

never even tried the semi-metallics, went straight to sintered. One weird thing I haven't heard mentioned is if you take a short break on a downhill, they will squeal when you restart until they heat up again. Not a big deal but I've never had another brake do this. They must develope a slight glaze, braking power seems unaffected though. 

I haven't had them on a super long downhill (Martha Creek !). The Saints never failed ore really lost effectiveness, but they do start to make noise and feel funky. Based on what I've ridden so far though I have a lot of confidence they will handle anything. For the record the MT7's never got wonky either. 

Everyone says the wandering bite point problem with Shimano's is in the lever/MC not the caliper, but I've had very little problems with wandering bite point on the Shigura setup. Hayes have been absolutely rock solid in that dept, and the levers are easy to adjust. I cut and bled the line without too much problem either although you have to buy the "Pro bleed kit" so that's extra dollars. 

Anyway I see I am kind of rambling, point is I'm very happy with these brakes and expect to stick with them.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Question is whether they would work fine with 1.75 mm thick Shimano rotors.

Wanted to try just 1 for the front, to see how they compare vs. my 4-pot XTR Trail (BR-M9120) in terms of power and feeling.

Might then completely switch to them.

The thing is I have Center Lock DT Swiss wheels. So I'm stuck with Shimano rotors. I have adapters to 6 screws that came with the wheels, but don't want to use any adapters + it won't look nice anymore.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

I see there is also a SFL version of the levers that are shorter than non-SFL.
I'm used to Shimano levers, since I have them in their current shape since like 2012.

So SFL levers might be better then, for me?

Also do SFL (shorter) levers lower the leverage or are SFL levers shaped slightly different to not lower the leverage?


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Groove_c said:


> The thing is I have Center Lock DT Swiss wheels. So I'm stuck with Shimano rotors.


Yes, Shimano center lock rotors will be fine... EXCEPT for Freeza's. The Hayes caliper will interfere with the aluminum fin on the rotor.

You CAN run regular Ice-Tech rotors. That's what I'm running now. You can also run the traditional stainless rotors. Frankly, I can't tell the difference between the two.


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## onlybirdman (Feb 12, 2015)

Groove_c said:


> I see there is also a SFL version of the levers that are shorter than non-SFL.
> I'm used to Shimano levers, since I have them in their current shape since like 2012.
> 
> So SFL levers might be better then, for me?
> ...


The SFL levers are not just shorter in length, but mainly it extends from the pivot towards the bar more, so kids with short fingers can reach better. The one thing I find with my Dominion is that at full lever pull, the lever comes closer to the bar than other brakes (Shimano Servo Wave, SRAM SwingLink, TRP Quadiem), so the SFL would exacerbate this situation.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

RustyIron said:


> Yes, Shimano center lock rotors will be fine... EXCEPT for Freeza's. The Hayes caliper will interfere with the aluminum fin on the rotor.


I have Freeza rotors...
Where I live, my 4-pot XTR Trail are more than enough.
But wanted to try something else, with more gradual power rampup, smoother/easier lever actuation and even more power than I have now.
96 kg gear and bike not included.

Maybe not a good idea after all, since I will have to change the rotors then (my RT-MT900 are almost new) and I have all the tools and 2 bottles of oil to bleed Shimano.


onlybirdman said:


> The SFL levers are not just shorter in length, but mainly it extends from the pivot towards the bar more, so kids with short fingers can reach better. The one thing I find with my Dominion is that at full lever pull, the lever comes closer to the bar than other brakes (Shimano Servo Wave, SRAM SwingLink, TRP Quadiem), so the SFL would exacerbate this situation.


So you have SFL or regular ones?


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Have found an interesting post on a german forum, where a really technically inclined guy has made a ranking list of top brakes, based on their power.

https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/formula-cura-mit-direttissima-pumpe.834863/page-3#post-15605449

Tr!ckstuff Maxima, Tr!ckstuff Direttissima, Tr!ckstuff Piccola, Tr!ckstuff Piccola HD
Hayes Dominion A4 (regular levers), Magura MT5/7 (2-finger levers and stock/HC3 levers)
Formula Cura 4/2, SRAM Code, Shimano Saint, Hope Tech 3 V4

and also a mix of a lot of levers and calipers.
*Trimula* = Tr!ckstuff levers with Formula calipers
*MXA* = Tr!ckstuff Maxima levers*
DRT* = with Tr!ckstuff Direttissima levers
*PCA* = with Tr!ckstuff Piccola levers
*Trigura* = Tr!ckstuff levers with Magura calipers
*Tripe* = Tr!ckstuff levers with Hope calipers
*Trimano* = Tr!ickstuff levers with Shimano calipers

_Tr!ckstuff, Formula, Magura and Shimano are on mineral oil.
Hayes and Hope are on DOT._

on place 11 you can also see 2-pot options (22 mm) from Shimano, Hope, Tr!ckstuff and Magura with Tr!ckstuff Direttissima levers

He also says that differences between place 2 and 3, as well as between 7 - 10 are so small that they can be partially ignored.

*Hayes Dominion A4 are the most powerful out of the box*, without mixing their calipers or levers with other brands offers.
(if one doesn't consider stock Tr!ckstuff Maxima brakes  from € 1100)

- 2-pot Formula Cura 2 with Tr!ckstuff Direttissima levers are on par with stock 4-pot Shimano Saint )
- Magura MT5/7 with Shimano levers are more powerful than with stock/HC3 Magura levers, but not as powerful as with 2-finger Magura levers
- 2-pot calipers from Shimano, Hope and Magura but with Tr!ckstuff Direttissima levers are more powerful than stock 4-pot Magura MT5/7
- stock Formula Cura 4 and SRAM Code (9) are imperceptibly more powerful than Magura MT5/7 calipers with Shimano levers (10)
- Shimano Saint with Tr!ckstuff Diretissima levers (7) are imperceptibly more powerful than Hayes Dominion A4 (8), Formula Cura 4, SRAM Code (9) and Shigura (10)
- 4-pot Magura MT5/7, Hope Tech 3 V4 and 2-pot Formula Cura 2 with Tr!ckstuff Direttissima levers (4) are more powerful than stock Hayes Dominion A4 (8)
- Formula Cura 4 with Tr!ckstuff Piccola (2) or Direttissima (1) levers are the most powerful of all brakes available
- Formula Cura 4 would have been even more powerful with Tr!ckstuff Maxima levers than with Piccola or Diretissima levers, but they're not sold separately, but only as part of a full set of Maxima brakes


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## onlybirdman (Feb 12, 2015)

I have regular levers.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

*onlybirdman*, but what about adjusting both levers so their initial position is further away from the bar, so when you pull, they don't come as close to the bar?
Or will this then be too far to grab them (properly) or more fatigue in long/steep descents?


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

GRPABT1 said:


> I might try a new 203mm adapter on the rear some day just for experiment's sake but honestly I kinda like saving a few grams for no drawback 


Hi! Did you have a chance to try different adapter? I have a similar problem (https://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/help-brake-vibration-1148247.html) and the workaround was to remove the adapter and go from 180mm disc to 160mm.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

arnea said:


> Hi! Did you have a chance to try different adapter? I have a similar problem (https://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/help-brake-vibration-1148247.html) and the workaround was to remove the adapter and go from 180mm disc to 160mm.


From memory he went from a 203mm rotor to a 180mm and the problem went away.

I had the same issue on my Bergamont, the rear stays were too flexy and would turn into a tuning-fork with a 203mm rotor. I had to modify the mount to fit a 180mm and then it all went quiet.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Well, in my case what was interesting is that I only changed the front triangle of the bike and the problem appeared.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

...


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

*Formula Monolitic* (Center Lock) rotors are 1.95 mm thick and pads contact area is 15 mm wide.
Hayes rotors are also 1.95 mm thick and Dominion A4 pads are ~15 mm wide.

So *Formula Monolitic* (Center Lock) rotors should be perfect for Dominion A4.
No idea if any vibration or noise.

No need for Hayes or other 6-bolt rotors + CL adapters.

Using Shimano (non-Freeza) or SRAM rotors or rotors thinner than 1.95-2.0 mm is not optimal, since they're only 1.75-1.8 mm thick and pads contact area is just slightly wider than 14 mm.

It results in worse lever feel (with new pads), since free stroke is much longer than with 1.95-2.0 mm rotors and brake force is lower, since less pads contact area (<15 mm) vs. 15-15.5 mm for Formula Monolitic (Center Lock), Hayes D, Magura Storm HC or Tr!ckstuff Daechle HD rotors.
+ the lever blade comes closer to the bar, beacause of thinner rotors.

Pads worn out combined with thin rotors (Shimano/SRAM), lever feel and pistons retraction can be simply bad.
So stick to 1.95-2.0 mm rotors for shortest possible free stroke and so pistons don't have to come out more than foreseen by manufacturer (Hayes).



Harold said:


> Use centerlock-6 bolt adapters. It's what I'm using for my Dominions. No fuss.





arnea said:


> I started with Shimano XT Icetech rotors that are thinner than Hayes rotors. I hoped that pistons will auto-adjust to thinner rotors, but apparently that wasn't the case. Freestroke was still too long for my liking, I had too run levers far from bars in order to get sufficient stopping power. Yesterday I upgraded to Hayes rotors using Shimano Centerlock adapters. Pushed back the pistons, etc. The freestroke is now really minimal, I'm able to run levers closer to bar.





gnarzt said:


> My bike came with a DT Swiss wheelset and the hubs are centerlock. Currently there are new 180mm Shimano RT70 rotors installed on my wheels.
> 
> I know the shimano rotors are a bit thin compared to the Hayes ones. I'd rather not use 6 bolt adapters (seem like extra hassle and more things to go wrong) in order to run the Hayes D series rotors, are there other centerlock rotors that would be better than the ones I have?





justin83 said:


> I've got DT Swiss centerlock hubs and went with DT's centerlock to 6 bolt adapter. No issues, light weight compared to the Shimano adapter, simple to install, and you can use the proper rotors.





PuddleDuck said:


> I'd use adapters so I could run the rotors the brake was designed with. As well as width being a factor, noise & vibration is also a factor.





RAG2 said:


> Sorry, I read through maybe 80 posts before I gave up looking. How are people finding these brakes get along with 1.8 mm rotors? I have Centerlock hubs, and nearly new XTR and Formula CL rotors on hand, so I want.my brakes to work well with these rotors. My hope is that 1.8mm rotors would work as long as they are tossed before they get worn down very far...





MikeDee said:


> I don't see the problem using Hayes rotors with Centerlock adapters on Centerlock hubs. That's what I do. Using another manufacturer's rotor is problematic unless you carefully research and match the width of the brake rack, diameter, and rotor thickness.





RustyIron said:


> Hayes doesn't show centerlocks on their web page, so I decided to stick with my Shimano Freeza's. Nope. The calipers on the Dominions are pretty huge, and don't clear the aluminum fins on the Freeza's. Great. So off the shop I went, and came home with a couple regular Ice Tech's. That problem was solved.





GRPABT1 said:


> For future reference they seem to work fine with my ice-tech rotors with plenty of adjustment available. My existing adapters also worked, I'll get part numbers of them later.





farfromovin said:


> Installed Dominions today with D series rotors


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

In an effort to save some money, I put TRP Slate brakes on my enduro bike. While they've been quite reliable, the power just isn't there for the steep and gnarly trails that I'm riding these days.

I think it's time to pony up and get some brakes that will give enough power and save my poor cramping hands. It looks like the Dominions will be perfect for me. I'm not seeing much in the way of complaints here.

If Preston likes them, then they're probably pretty damn good.


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## onlybirdman (Feb 12, 2015)

Curveball said:


> In an effort to save some money, I put TRP Slate brakes on my enduro bike. While they've been quite reliable, the power just isn't there for the steep and gnarly trails that I'm riding these days.
> 
> I think it's time to pony up and get some brakes that will give enough power and save my poor cramping hands. It looks like the Dominions will be perfect for me. I'm not seeing much in the way of complaints here.
> 
> If Preston likes them, then they're probably pretty damn good.


Hayes Dominions are great, you'll love them. However, don't forget that Trickstuff makes pads for Shimano Saints and compatible with TRP 4 piston brakes, including the Slate. Trickstuff 260 Power pads. That's probably the cheapest TRP upgrade. I got both Dominion and TRP Quadiem, and the Dominion is the one I love. Both are plenty powerful assuming you have the Trickstuff 260 Power pads on the TRP, but the Dominion has a fantastic feel that is superior.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

If somebody has problems to find Hayes adapters, Magura are ok, like QM 26 or QM 44 for 203 mm.

Also since Hayes makes the clamp for I-Spec EV/ Matchmaker X only for the right side, you can use *Magura Shiftmix* clamp for the left, to use there Rockshox Reverb dropper remote without additional clamp or Shimano or any other droppers remotes.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Good tip, but I personally despise having shift and brake levers on a single clamp. it prevents you from customizing the reach between lever and shifter, as well as the angle of each.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

ColinL said:


> but I personally despise having shift and brake levers on a single clamp


???


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Groove_c said:


> ???


I explained why right after. Or are you even asking why? I see this is for a dropper lever, same reason. I generally do not want my shift or dropper levers tied to the position and angle of the brake lever. Thus everything needs separate clamps.

Is that what you meant to ask with your three question marks? If not... I don't know what it was.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

ColinL said:


> I generally do not want my shift or dropper levers tied to the position and angle of the brake lever. Thus everything needs separate clamps.


Actually you can move the shifter/dropper remote left/right and like 60° up/down on the same clamp.

No need for separate clamps to be able to do this.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Groove_c said:


> Actually you can move the shifter/dropper remote left/right and like 60° up/down on the same clamp.
> 
> No need for separate clamps to be able to do this.


I had the brake/shifter hayes matchmaker, didn't work for me. Not enough adjustment range.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm still hesitating to try them out as front brake instead of my 4-pot XTR.
Since I would need to buy Formula Monolitic (Center Lock) rotor (instead of my Shimano XTR Freeza rotor) + Magura 203 mm adapter (since Hayes adapters are out of stock in EU) + Magura Shiftmix clamps + DOT bottle.

A lot of money to just see if it's worth the step or not.

Not as nice as XTR, not as well thought clamps for shifters adjustements, no Servo-Wave = longer lever pull.
But I'm somehow tempted to make the step, since power seems greater, along with modulation.

Mineral oil or DOT, I don't care.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Well, I ordered a set for my bike. New rotors too since it seems my Shimano ones might be too thin.

Now it appears I'll need adaptors for 180 rotors. That seems odd to me since I'd expect a strong 4-piston brake to be designed around 180+ rotors. The Dominion doesn't seem like an XC brake.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Surely that's a fork and frame issue? That's what determines the rotor size. I have one fork that has a 160mm post mount and another with 180mm. So it has nothing to do with the brake companies.


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## onlybirdman (Feb 12, 2015)

Groove_c said:


> I'm still hesitating to try them out as front brake instead of my 4-pot XTR.
> Since I would need to buy Formula Monolitic (Center Lock) rotor (instead of my Shimano XTR Freeza rotor) + Magura 203 mm adapter (since Hayes adapters are out of stock in EU) + Magura Shiftmix clamps + DOT bottle.
> 
> A lot of money to just see if it's worth the step or not.
> ...


They're all great brakes at the end of the day. I'm glad I switched from Shimano to Hayes though. The long lever stroke was bothersome at first but I got used to it, and it is now a none issue. The feathery lever feel and modulation is the main reason I have no buyer's remorse. In fact, I've been contemplating getting a set of Dominion A2 to replace my TRP Quadiem.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Mudguard said:


> Surely that's a fork and frame issue? That's what determines the rotor size. I have one fork that has a 160mm post mount and another with 180mm. So it has nothing to do with the brake companies.


Well, clearly I need more coffee today. Of course it's the fork/frame.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Curveball said:


> Well, clearly I need more coffee today. Of course it's the fork/frame.


Don't sweat it. I'm on my third cup!


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Had a big ride in the mountains on Saturday and a small ride in the foothills on Monday with the new brakes. The power and modulation were great for the most part on the stock organic pads. The 2,200' descent on Saturday though I felt I could use a bit more power on the steeper sections. I'll swap to the metallic pads this week and I'm pretty sure that will work awesome.

I looked at the Hayes installation video and found that I didn't have the necessary tools for the job, so I had the LBS do the install. There seems to be a lot of freestroke with them.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Curveball said:


> Had a big ride in the mountains on Saturday and a small ride in the foothills on Monday with the new brakes. The power and modulation were great for the most part on the stock organic pads. The 2,200' descent on Saturday though I felt I could use a bit more power on the steeper sections. I'll swap to the metallic pads this week and I'm pretty sure that will work awesome.
> 
> I looked at the Hayes installation video and found that I didn't have the necessary tools for the job, so I had the LBS do the install. There seems to be a lot of freestroke with them.


Welcome to the select group of people riding the best brake available today. 

A couple of things. First and foremost, if your LBS had never set up Dominions before, they may not have done it right. With 2 bleed ports their setup is unique.

Second. The lever does have a long range of travel but it starts moving the pistons fairly quickly, just in a very small amount, and with a lot of modulation. If you put it on a stand and spin the wheel then lightly grab the brake you can see and probably hear the piston starting to move pretty early in the lever travel. If there's a lot of take-up slack before you see/hear this, then it's likely they aren't bled properly.

There's a big learning and familiarity curve to them if you're coming from Shimano because Shimano have very little lever stroke with which to modulate the brakes, and their initial power is very high. After you get used to riding the Dominion, you'll hate Shimano. I went through this years ago when I switched from Shimano to Magura. Magura to Dominion has a lot more in common.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm probably going to pick up a set here soon. I have a bunch of random brake bleeding parts left over from a dozen different older brake systems, Avid, TRP, Shimano, etc. Are the Hayes ports any different? Any reason I need to buy the "pro bleed kit" for another $40?


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

ungod said:


> I'm probably going to pick up a set here soon. I have a bunch of random brake bleeding parts left over from a dozen different older brake systems, Avid, TRP, Shimano, etc. Are the Hayes ports any different? Any reason I need to buy the "pro bleed kit" for another $40?


The main reason for the bleed kit would be the bleed block, which allows to move the pistons just on 1 side = easy cleaning, lubing and exercising the pistons. 
I do it regularly in order to keep the free stroke to minimum. It's an easy and quick job.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I don't know what size the threads are on the Hayes M/C, and you can take your chances and and wait until they arrive to check, but my guess is that nothing is compatible between brands 

I've got a lot more riding on these Hayes now including big enough downhills that would have made my Saints "complain" (albeit still more or less work okay). The Hayes never change their bite point or grab, they work without complaint. And as time has gone on I've REALLY begun to appreciate the modulation. Didn't seem like a big deal at first but now I really like the feel. Still don't like the lever shape all that much, prefer the Shimano levers, but at least I don't have to bubble bleed them every 2 weeks and they are 100% consistent all the time. And most importantly, the wheels both spin free as a bird all the time with no drag. I've never had a disc brake I could truly say that after multiple rides. 
Only complain is what I mentioned before, when you heat them up, and then they cool off, they squeal upon use until they scrape off that glaze (30 seconds of trail riding if you're using your brakes, and it doesn't happen when they are cold). 

I haven't tried TRP or Diritessima (whatever) but I agree with the post above that they are the best brake choice on the market right now. and the copper color matches my Ransom 910 frame color perfectly. Wasn't that hot on the frame color when I bought the bike but now I love it, all because of these brakes ha.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

ungod said:


> I'm probably going to pick up a set here soon. I have a bunch of random brake bleeding parts left over from a dozen different older brake systems, Avid, TRP, Shimano, etc. Are the Hayes ports any different? Any reason I need to buy the "pro bleed kit" for another $40?


I've picked up an "universal" bleed kit cause I'm greedy. Works fine, has a few different tips so 2 of them fit. I think it's the same thread as sram. 
Why you want the Hayes kit is : on the caliper those bleed ports don't have much space around them, so you need a long tip for the syringe. The cheap kit only has one long , so regular bleed ok, caliper only bleed is a no go.
You can see them in their bleed video

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jazzanova said:


> Not enough adjustment range.


I had the same experience when trying to combine clamps on previous bikes. So I decided to hell with it, separate clamps always works. Bars are wide enough nowadays that handlebar clutter isn't a problem.

I don't understand the continued push for combined clamps, tbh.

1.5yrs in on my Dominion A4's and I love them just as much as the day I installed them. Best brakes I've ever used. So consistent. So reliable. What's not to love?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Do different brake designs deal with heat better than others, assuming identical rotors?

Why?

I overheated some Maguras on an admittedly a steep/ long/ fast descent, but when I compare them to other brakes, most of the 'heat sink' difference is in the brakes, not the rotors. What I mean is the Magura brakes are lighter than Hayes, but the rotors themselves aren't much different in weight, and I would think that's where the ability to deal with extended heat would come from. Is there a difference between DOT & mineral oil or some other factor I'm not considering?

PS. If I was buying new brakes they would be the Hayes as they appear to be the best out currently, but in reality they weigh 200+ grams more than my current set up and for aggressive trail riding, not sure I'd gain anything from any additional braking feel/ force in my daily riding conditions.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Not sure about the overheating and how different brands deal with it.

However, to the point of gaining anything in buying these brakes, depending on what you are riding now, I would take the +200gm penalty for what these offer over any other brake I have run. I have not touched mine in a year, no weird sounds, no bleeding, they just work and work everytime, the same way as the time before and since new. That in itself is worth it to me, because I can deal with just about anything being a bit off on the bike, but having 100% trust in my brakes I have learned changes the way I ride and my confidence. Not that I had bad brakes before, but these are that good, the feel, the power. Once you accustom to it, it's almost like jedi mind power takes over and there is no thinking about them, braking is just an extension of your mind and you don't think about braking. For it being a "subtle" difference, the effect on riding is bigger than I would have thought.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Curveball said:


> I had the LBS do the install. There seems to be a lot of freestroke with them.


Which rotors do you use?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Do different brake designs deal with heat better than others, assuming identical rotors?
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


Yes there are massive differences in how brakes handle heat. I have been riding Hayes brakes for just over 20 years now and the Dominion is the first one that I haven't been able to turn an 8" rotor purple on. The Hayes brake engineers tell me the Dominion is twice as good at shedding heat compared to their previous brakes it that claim appears to be totally true.

Also a big difference in how fluids handle heat. Mineral oil contains dissolved air and as it heats this air expands out of solution to form bubbles. The same thing happens in suspension which is why we vacuum degas the oil for rear shocks that run hot.
DOT fluid doesn't do this, which is why all high performance brakes (cars, motorbikes, trucks, buses etc) use DOT fluid. Mineral is only used for slow machinery with immersed wet brakes (forklifts, loaders, bulldozers etc). They need mineral oil for seal compatibility as the whole brakes are sitting in axle oil.

A good brake with fresh DOT fluid can run a rotor until it glows without fading out:

__
http://instagr.am/p/B5TKN9CBkPE/


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

That makes sense. Figured the fluid might be a big part of the difference. 

On the edge of ordering new brakes... Pretty sure I'm going to order something new and save these Maguras for a WW build for my daughter soon. 

Also looking hard at the Piccola HDs, but don't want to drop a wad of cash and be in the same position regarding overheating. 

Edit: I feel that Hayes makes the best brakes but I ordered Trickstuff just cause they've always intrigued me and wait time wasn't an issue for me. Hope I don't regret it!

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Groove_c said:


> Which rotors do you use?


1.9 mm Maguras.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Curveball said:


> 1.9 mm Maguras.


Should be fine, since they're of same thickness as Hayes rotors.
Then your LBS probably hasn't bled them properly and maybe they didn't have the Pro bleed kit from Hayes and thus couldn't bleed both sides of the caliper.
They probably have used SRAM/AVID syringes to bleed, since same thread, but only 1 side of the caliper and not both sides + the thread on SRAM/AVID is much shorter.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Groove_c said:


> Should be fine, since they're of same thickness as Hayes rotors.
> Then your LBS probably hasn't bled them properly and maybe they didn't have the Pro bleed kit from Hayes and thus couldn't bleed both sides of the caliper.
> They probably have used SRAM/AVID syringes to bleed, since same thread, but only 1 side of the caliper and not both sides + the thread on SRAM/AVID is much shorter.


Yeah, I doubt that they have a dedicated Hayes bleed kit on hand. I guess I'll order one and try to figure out the process. My problem with bleeding anything is that my eyesight isn't so great at close range and it's hard to see bubbles.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Yes there are massive differences in how brakes handle heat. I have been riding Hayes brakes for just over 20 years now and the Dominion is the first one that I haven't been able to turn an 8" rotor purple on. The Hayes brake engineers tell me the Dominion is twice as good at shedding heat compared to their previous brakes it that claim appears to be totally true.
> 
> Also a big difference in how fluids handle heat. Mineral oil contains dissolved air and as it heats this air expands out of solution to form bubbles. The same thing happens in suspension which is why we vacuum degas the oil for rear shocks that run hot.
> DOT fluid doesn't do this, which is why all high performance brakes (cars, motorbikes, trucks, buses etc) use DOT fluid. Mineral is only used for slow machinery with immersed wet brakes (forklifts, loaders, bulldozers etc). They need mineral oil for seal compatibility as the whole brakes are sitting in axle oil.
> ...


I'm going to save this post for future reference.

Dougal, do you have an opinion as to why Shimano and Magura still use mineral oil in their bicycle brakes? Is it good enough*, and they simply don't want to change and 'relegate' all their existing install base?

*statistically, most riders- especially in flatter areas- don't use their brakes heavily, and pro riders have a mechanic bleed their brakes frequently, and refresh the fluid.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Yes there are massive differences in how brakes handle heat. I have been riding Hayes brakes for just over 20 years now and the Dominion is the first one that I haven't been able to turn an 8" rotor purple on. The Hayes brake engineers tell me the Dominion is twice as good at shedding heat compared to their previous brakes it that claim appears to be totally true.
> 
> Also a big difference in how fluids handle heat. Mineral oil contains dissolved air and as it heats this air expands out of solution to form bubbles. The same thing happens in suspension which is why we vacuum degas the oil for rear shocks that run hot.
> DOT fluid doesn't do this, which is why all high performance brakes (cars, motorbikes, trucks, buses etc) use DOT fluid. Mineral is only used for slow machinery with immersed wet brakes (forklifts, loaders, bulldozers etc). They need mineral oil for seal compatibility as the whole brakes are sitting in axle oil.
> ...


I'm guessing this might help explain all of the heat management on Shimano brakes such as the finned pads, freeza rotors, etc. Maybe they're trying to keep the heat down so that the fluid doesn't start degassing.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Mineral oil is sufficient for almost anyone on a bike. It can handle the heat. So companies use it since DOT needs to be degassed, if not you'll get air in the lines and people blame the brakes. DOT is better after about 6 month. Since it will absorbed water and only slightly drop the billing point. Mineral oil won't absorb water and it will probably end up in the caliper. This water will boil and cause all sorts of problems.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

To be fair, I was on the Monarch Crest Trail, and it entailed a rather long descent that's not the usual. But then, it's not super steep either. 
However these same mineral brakes have gotten a bit soft at times at a small lift assist local park too and that bothered me. 
As a result of all this, I ordered Trickstuff brakes because effortless 1 finger actuation is exactly what I desire and being Dot 5.1 fluid it seems they don't require as large of rotors to deal with excess heat. Hayes is probably a better brake and certainly a better brake for the money but the sharp bite point and 250 saved grams of the TS brakes won me over. 
To top it off I choose the TS Heavy Duty rotors as they have a bit more pad surface area to better cope with heat and the pads will also last longer. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> I'm going to save this post for future reference.
> 
> Dougal, do you have an opinion as to why Shimano and Magura still use mineral oil in their bicycle brakes? Is it good enough*, and they simply don't want to change and 'relegate' all their existing install base?
> 
> *statistically, most riders- especially in flatter areas- don't use their brakes heavily, and pro riders have a mechanic bleed their brakes frequently, and refresh the fluid.


That's exactly it. The vast majority of riders have no issues at all with heat. They're riding little elevation change at moderate speeds.

Pro's don't need their brakes as much as us mortals do. The worst case for brake heat is someone with the skill and ambition to ride a lot of vertical, but who rides it at a controlled speed with a lot of brake usage.

Like me.



Cerberus75 said:


> Mineral oil is sufficient for almost anyone on a bike. It can handle the heat. So companies use it since DOT needs to be degassed, if not you'll get air in the lines and people blame the brakes. DOT is better after about 6 month. Since it will absorbed water and only slightly drop the billing point. Mineral oil won't absorb water and it will probably end up in the caliper. This water will boil and cause all sorts of problems.


DOT doesn't need degassed and mineral oil doesn't handle heat well.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> To be fair, I was on the Monarch Crest Trail, and it entailed a rather long descent that's not the usual. But then, it's not super steep either.
> However these same mineral brakes have gotten a bit soft at times at a small lift assist local park too and that bothered me.
> As a result of all this, I ordered Trickstuff brakes because effortless 1 finger actuation is exactly what I desire and being Dot 5.1 fluid it seems they don't require as large of rotors to deal with excess heat. Hayes is probably a better brake and certainly a better brake for the money but the sharp bite point and 250 saved grams of the TS brakes won me over.
> To top it off I choose the TS Heavy Duty rotors as they have a bit more pad surface area to better cope with heat and the pads will also last longer.
> ...


If you have long decents and need to drag the brakes at all DOT is a better fluid. Mineral is ok for on and of braking. Probably why Shimano has the servo wave to grab. You can't go wrong with TS.


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## Roto599 (Jan 3, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> ... I ordered Trickstuff brakes because effortless 1 finger actuation is exactly what I desire and being Dot 5.1 fluid it seems they don't require as large of rotors to deal with excess heat. ...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Is TS now using DOT 5.1? I thought they use plant based oil, something they call "Bionol"? https://trickstuff.de/bremsfluessigkeit/


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Roto599 said:


> Is TS now using DOT 5.1? I thought they use plant based oil, something they call "Bionol"? https://trickstuff.de/bremsfluessigkeit/


5.1 compatible.

I'll have to break the system anyways to route and adjust lines and I'll bleed with a 5.1 recommended by TS as it has higher temp rating than the Bionol.

Whenever a bike part fails or lets me down, I search out a solution that won't let me down in the future. Axles, spokes, rims, cranks, tires, handlebars, droppers and now brakes have been upgraded after failures. Usually if you are willing to spend more money you can improve performance without a significant weight penalty.

The problem with TS brakes of course is parts availability. On a bike trip having commonly available parts is really helpful, but short of overheating I've never had a brake, break.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

*@Suns_PSD*, it's actually Hayes thread, not Tr!ckstuff.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Got my Dominion a4's set up and went for a ride today. Really impressive! Love the power and the modulation on them. I used the Hayes rotors as well. Everything is extremely confidence-inspiring.

I did get a bit of a wake-up call on setting them up. I'm used to Shimano and TRP where I was able to slice the line, slide it through the frame, put a new barb on and reconnect it, and off to the races. Not so with the Dominions. The master lost all fluid as soon as I pulled the old barb out, which necessitated a full bleed, and of course this is DOT so you want to keep that stuff away from clearcoat (so naturally it flung all over everywhere when I was removing the bleed container). And then of course the location of the bleed port on the calipers made me think I'd be a fool not to pull the pads out (no bleed nipple here!). So in the end, it took quite a bit longer than others to set up. 

No complaints though, the end result was definitely worth it.

And of course, after taking my new $400 brakes for a spin, I found out my Next SL cranks finally bit the dust...so I guess it's time to loosen up the bank account again. Sigh.


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## 2wls4ever (May 11, 2006)

Curveball said:


> In an effort to save some money, I put TRP Slate brakes on my enduro bike. While they've been quite reliable, the power just isn't there for the steep and gnarly trails that I'm riding these days.
> 
> I think it's time to pony up and get some brakes that will give enough power and save my poor cramping hands. It looks like the Dominions will be perfect for me. I'm not seeing much in the way of complaints here.
> 
> If Preston likes them, then they're probably pretty damn good.


Give the DH-R EVO's a try


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

2wls4ever said:


> Give the DH-R EVO's a try


See post #508.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Yesterday I did a very steep and greasy ride. The trail was incredibly slick mud and full of steep roots.

Wow, great power when I had some traction and amazing modulation when I didn't. I'm extremely impressed.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Curveball said:


> Yesterday I did a very steep and greasy ride. The trail was incredibly slick mud and full of steep roots.
> 
> Wow, great power when I had some traction and amazing modulation when I didn't. I'm extremely impressed.


awesome, that's been my experience as well.

so I take it you got your setup issues ironed out?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

ColinL said:


> awesome, that's been my experience as well.
> 
> so I take it you got your setup issues ironed out?


Yeah, I think I just got used to the short throw of the Shimano Servo-wave levers.

I'm more than happy with the Dominions. I had a very wet ride on Saturday and the brakes were awesome. These are by far the best brakes that I've ever used.:thumbsup:


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## jabber127 (Jan 26, 2016)

So here's a long shot: Has anyone had to replace this bolt on their dominions? 









The one on the underside of my lever backed out and disappeared on the trail somewhere.

I've talked to Hayes but they don't stock those bolts a la carte and can't tell me the diameter and thread pitch. Really don't want to buy a $50 lever assembly to replace one bolt :madman:.

I'm going to hit the hardware store but if anyone has any ideas they would be much appreciated.


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## jabber127 (Jan 26, 2016)

jabber127 said:


> So here's a long shot: Has anyone had to replace this bolt on their dominions?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, that was pretty easy:


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## charlatan (Aug 14, 2010)

Is anyone here running braided or third party lines for their Dominions? Just thinking about dressing them up if I get a new frame this winter. I'm also wondering about any performance difference, but they're so good as they are I can't imagine them getting better.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

charlatan said:


> Is anyone here running braided or third party lines for their Dominions? Just thinking about dressing them up if I get a new frame this winter. I'm also wondering about any performance difference, but they're so good as they are I can't imagine them getting better.


The stock lines are braided but hidden by the black cover.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

Dougal said:


> The stock lines are braided but hidden by the black cover.


I was wondering because they were putting so much power down with one finger without the line expansion. Makes sense now that you mentioned it. With the right bleed they have some serious power, 60 plus lbs on fatbike with camp gear. Never give my brakes a second thought.


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## onlybirdman (Feb 12, 2015)

timsmcm said:


> I was wondering because they were putting so much power down with one finger without the line expansion. Makes sense now that you mentioned it. With the right bleed they have some serious power, 60 plus lbs on fatbike with camp gear. Never give my brakes a second thought.


They are not steel braided though, not sure if that's what you meant when you said "braided". Dominion hoses are kevlar reinforced. As good as they are, I do still feel the rear lever being a little bit squishier than front. I'm sure there are still some line expansion. I'm guessing Goodridge lines could reduce expansion further but marginal at best. Shimano rear brakes hose expansion is much more noticeable. Dominion and Quadiem are hardly noticeable. Going from Shimano to Dominion and Quadiem, I appreciate the lack of hose expansion greatly.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

onlybirdman said:


> They are not steel braided though, not sure if that's what you meant when you said "braided". Dominion hoses are kevlar reinforced. As good as they are, I do still feel the rear lever being a little bit squishier than front. I'm sure there are still some line expansion. I'm guessing Goodridge lines could reduce expansion further but marginal at best. Shimano rear brakes hose expansion is much more noticeable. Dominion and Quadiem are hardly noticeable. Going from Shimano to Dominion and Quadiem, I appreciate the lack of hose expansion greatly.[/QU
> 
> I believe you may have a rear system that is not bead out good. My rear has no more expansion than my front. Incredible power in a soft touch. Outstanding brake system.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

One more little thing about these brakes - I have been riding Shimano since 2010, but before that I had Forumal Oros. Compared to those I always found the Shimano Saint semi-metallic pads to have a significant loss of initial bite in the wet and its always wet around here. I got used to it, and if you were going steep they would heat up and improve and be non-factor. Since I put these Hayes on in June i was blessedly not riding a lot in the rain until recently when I came to realize, "hey !", these things brake great in the rain even on initial application. I was pretty psyched about that cuz I had just learned to live with it. Now that I have full wet braking power back I'm loving it. I might even go out on a limb and say the squealing you get on a wet disc is a lower less annoying frequency and heats up and goes away sooner too. 

Dominion ! Resistance is futile !


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## Forbiddenforlife (Oct 3, 2020)

Dougal said:


> The stock lines are braided but hidden by the black cover.


They are braided but they're not steel braided. You will get a power increase by going to some goodridge hoses.


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## crj5 (Jun 4, 2019)

Groove_c said:


> If somebody has problems to find Hayes adapters, Magura are ok, like QM 26 or QM 44 for 203 mm.
> 
> Also since Hayes makes the clamp for I-Spec EV/ Matchmaker X only for the right side, you can use *Magura Shiftmix* clamp for the left, to use there Rockshox Reverb dropper remote without additional clamp or Shimano or any other droppers remotes.


Thanks for this info, very valuable. I just got my brakes and rotors in and have been looking for the 180-203mm adapters everywhere. Just ordered the Magura adapters, will be using Shiftmix as well.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Preston67 said:


> One more little thing about these brakes - I have been riding Shimano since 2010, but before that I had Forumal Oros. Compared to those I always found the Shimano Saint semi-metallic pads to have a significant loss of initial bite in the wet and its always wet around here. I got used to it, and if you were going steep they would heat up and improve and be non-factor. Since I put these Hayes on in June i was blessedly not riding a lot in the rain until recently when I came to realize, "hey !", these things brake great in the rain even on initial application. I was pretty psyched about that cuz I had just learned to live with it. Now that I have full wet braking power back I'm loving it. I might even go out on a limb and say the squealing you get on a wet disc is a lower less annoying frequency and heats up and goes away sooner too.
> 
> Dominion ! Resistance is futile !


That's my experience too. Although I used to have XT instead of Saint brakes.


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

I really want a set of these. See how they do over the SRAM RSC's


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

TXrocks said:


> I really want a set of these. See how they do over the SRAM RSC's


that is literally the move I made 2 years ago, and it's been a massive improvement in control, power and reliability. I'll be honest- it was the piston seize issue (in heat) that caused me to need to replace my Guide RSCs. but the Dominion A4 is so much better, it would have been worth doing even if the SRAMs were working normally.


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## TXrocks (Apr 22, 2014)

Hahaha damn. Now I'll be brake shopping. The RSC's haven't let me down, but I would like the better modulation.


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

Has anyone had problems with the peacemaker shimano adapter? 

Also, will shimano rotor adapters (180mm F/R) work with the Hayes calipers?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nevada 29er said:


> Has anyone had problems with the peacemaker shimano adapter?
> 
> Also, will shimano rotor adapters (180mm F/R) work with the Hayes calipers?


I don't know about the peacemaker, but the Shimano adaptors do not work with the Hayes calipers.


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm contemplating a switch from SLX 4 piston to the Dominion, but I have I Spec brakes/shifter, so I would need the peacemaker to convert.

Lot's of extras needed to make this work including the caliper adapters. I would probably keep the shimano rotors for now.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nevada 29er said:


> I'm contemplating a switch from SLX 4 piston to the Dominion, but I have I Spec brakes/shifter, so I would need the peacemaker to convert.
> 
> Lot's of extras needed to make this work including the caliper adapters. I would probably keep the shimano rotors for now.


I had Shimano rotors on my bike when I switched to the Dominions and had to replace them with Magura rotors (cheaper than Hayes) because the Shimano ones are too thin.


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

Curveball said:


> I had Shimano rotors on my bike when I switched to the Dominions and had to replace them with Magura rotors (cheaper than Hayes) because the Shimano ones are too thin.


Was the engagement off with the shimano rotors or something else?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nevada 29er said:


> Was the engagement off with the shimano rotors or something else?


I just went with the Hayes recommended rotor thickness to avoid problems. I never did try them with the Shimano rotors.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nevada 29er said:


> Has anyone had problems with the peacemaker shimano adapter?
> 
> Also, will shimano rotor adapters (180mm F/R) work with the Hayes calipers?


Just use separate clamps for your shifter and your brakes. No more problems mixing brands or adjusting things to fit your hands.

Adapters are adapters, so long as the sizes and mount specs are the same.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nevada 29er said:


> I would probably keep the shimano rotors for now.


You need to change rotors to something that matches the Hayes thickness spec. Using rotors that are too thin will mess up engagement between the pad and the rotor and result in excessive lever travel. It's even possible for the levers to hit the grips before the pads fully engage the rotors. IIRC, Shimano rotors are thinner than the minimum thickness Hayes specifies (to account for rotor wear).

Plus, part of the reason Hayes specs thicker rotors is for more heat capacity.


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

Nevada 29er said:


> Has anyone had problems with the peacemaker shimano adapter?
> 
> Also, will shimano rotor adapters (180mm F/R) work with the Hayes calipers?


I had peacemaker for sram before. Broke it easily during a crash. Now I just keep two rings on my bar.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Harold said:


> You need to change rotors to something that matches the Hayes thickness spec. Using rotors that are too thin will mess up engagement between the pad and the rotor and result in excessive lever travel. It's even possible for the levers to hit the grips before the pads fully engage the rotors. IIRC, Shimano rotors are thinner than the minimum thickness Hayes specifies (to account for rotor wear).
> 
> Plus, part of the reason Hayes specs thicker rotors is for more heat capacity.


Yep. Shimano rotors when new are at the Hayes wear limit (1.7mm).

SRAM Centerline rotors are 1.95mm though. They'll work fine if you can't quickly source a Hayes D series rotor.


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

Rotors are available, but 203mm Hayes post adapters are all sold out. I'm curious to try these brakes, but not $600 curious.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

True, nobody stocks Hayes adapters. Just get Magura. 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

Been running these brakes since March. >6 months and 1000 miles. Haven’t had to bleed after install. Been from sea level to over 12k feet and I’ve never noticed anything strange. 

Very happy!


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## jabber127 (Jan 26, 2016)

Anyone have any solutions for pad rattling? I can't get my rear pads quiet since i've moved the dominions to a new bike. I've tried messing with the pad spring and a couple mastic tape jobs, nothing is working all that well. If anyone has ideas they'd be much appreciated.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jabber127 said:


> Anyone have any solutions for pad rattling? I can't get my rear pads quiet since i've moved the dominions to a new bike. I've tried messing with the pad spring and a couple mastic tape jobs, nothing is working all that well. If anyone has ideas they'd be much appreciated.


The pad spring should keep them pinned. Is it not in place correctly?


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

Just got my Dominion A4s installed, but not yet ridden. The fit and finish is nice and high quality. I was worried about the lever shape from pictures, but they're actually quite ergonomic hands-on. I still think Shimano has the best lever shape for one finger braking, thought the Dominion's lever is a very similar shape. Shortening the hoses are easy and the combined barb and olive is genius! The actual brake lines are pretty robust and stiff and kevlar braided. 

I took my time in shortening and bleeding. But it's a simple process, and very easy. Similar to SRAM without the bleeding edge. I like the large fluid reservoir since it effectively increases the time in between bleeds. More brakes should have large reservoirs. This is the first brakeset I've ever bled to have the front and rear brake feel identical. At the first attempt too. The grub screws to center the caliper took a little while to center, but it's as close to perfect as my patience allows.

I have the Dominion specific rotors at 203/203 and will be running the sintered pads from the get go. Feel wise, I prefer DOT fluid brakes. It's the superior fluid for brakes or any kind, as evidenced by their use in motorcycles and automobiles. I think that the Guide Ultimates have the best lever feel and modulation that I've every used. They're also the best at piston retraction thanks to their fancy pistons. The Dominions' lever feels so much like the Guide Ults, but with better ergos and just a smidge smoother. The pad retraction appears to be the same as well. I just rode around the parking lot and the braking power is immense. I still need to bed the pads in. 

Overall, I'm very excited to get a good ride on these tomorrow. I'm glad I went with the Dominions rather than the Cura 4s or MT7s.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

Enjoy the Dominion brakes. Love my set.


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## justin83 (Feb 22, 2008)

jabber127 said:


> Anyone have any solutions for pad rattling? I can't get my rear pads quiet since i've moved the dominions to a new bike. I've tried messing with the pad spring and a couple mastic tape jobs, nothing is working all that well. If anyone has ideas they'd be much appreciated.


take those pad springs and REALLLLLY spread them out. like far. that's how i resolved my pad rattle.


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

Digging these brakes so far. I love how progressive they are and the modulation rivals that of the Guide Ultimates, but with a far better lever shape and waaay more power. 

The grub screw thing is cool in theory I guess. But I'm not really a big fan of them. I have the disc and pad spacers which work better when centering the calipers. Also a lot faster in my experience. Then I just turn the grub screws in when I have the calipers centered so they don't fall off. 

These are some top tier brakes that don't get the attention they deserve.


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## jabber127 (Jan 26, 2016)

justin83 said:


> take those pad springs and REALLLLLY spread them out. like far. that's how i resolved my pad rattle.


Thanks for the response. This is exactly what I did right before you posted this. I was a little too conservative before because I didn't want to break the thing, but really prying open the top of the spring where the bolt passes through solved the rattle.


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## dodger (Feb 10, 2004)

For any Dominion owner...can someone measure the stroke length at the end of the lever from resting position to where the pads hit the rotor (free stroke or dead stroke).

I have one bike set up with some old Code's and Guide RSC levers and the free stroke is 5/8". Another bike I just built has new Code RSCs and I dig them but the free stroke is 7/8" and that little difference is throwing me off on my intuitive braking when I ride that bike.

I measured a Dominion in the LBS and free stroke seemed to be about 3/4" but it's hard to tell not mounted on a bar and using the pad spacer vs a real rotor.

One of the selling points of the Dominion is minimal free stroke but based on my measurements it doesn't seem to be much better in that very narrow aspect.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Hard to tell precisely. I'm measuring by pulling the lever until I can see no airspace between the pad and rotor, and measuring lever-to-bar. Then I release and measure again. The difference is about 7/8" to 1".


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## dodger (Feb 10, 2004)

RustyIron said:


> Hard to tell precisely. I'm measuring by pulling the lever until I can see no airspace between the pad and rotor, and measuring lever-to-bar. Then I release and measure again. The difference is about 7/8" to 1".


Thank you sir. Basically the point when the lever pressure ramps up almost instantly. Your numbers make sense and confirm what I found in the shop.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

For those with the dominion brakes, can you describe the bleeding process and what is needed to get a good bleed? I’ve only ever used Shimano brakes, which is a very simple bleed job. Is it critical to have the brakes off the bike with the lever and calipers at proper angles like is shown on the Hayes website? Is it easy enough to get a syringe in each hand for bleeding the rear brake if you leave it all on the bike? With internal rear brake hose routing, I’m not putting these brakes on my bike if the brake can’t be bled properly with the parts left on the bike, and I really wouldn’t ever feel like taking the whole front brake off the bike to bleed on a spare handlebar in a bike stand either.


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## Taildragger (Mar 13, 2005)

MX9799 said:


> For those with the dominion brakes, can you describe the bleeding process and what is needed to get a good bleed? I've only ever used Shimano brakes, which is a very simple bleed job. Is it critical to have the brakes off the bike with the lever and calipers at proper angles like is shown on the Hayes website? Is it easy enough to get a syringe in each hand for bleeding the rear brake if you leave it all on the bike? With internal rear brake hose routing, I'm not putting these brakes on my bike if the brake can't be bled properly with the parts left on the bike, and I really wouldn't ever feel like taking the whole front brake off the bike to bleed on a spare handlebar in a bike stand either.


Just bleed like any other brake then you can 'cross bleed' the caliper. There are two bleed ports per caliper. Plug a 1/2 full syringe into the left and right sides, push-pull fluid across the caliper and then enjoy.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

I leave everything on the bike and don't readjust anything. I push a full syringe of degassed fluid up through the lever so that the system contains only new fluid. Then I get another syringe, and push it up. Then the syringe on the lever is full, and I push it back down. I'll do that about twice, just to make sure I'm knocking loose any recalcitrant bubbles, then I button it up. It's pretty straight forward. 

I've found that pulling a vacuum with a syringe can suck air past seals, regardless of hte type of brakes I'm working on. I also don't do the cross-bleed. 

The take-away from this discussion is that different folks use different methods, and they all work. The Dominions are pretty forgiving.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I've only needed to do a cross bleed when starting with a completely dry caliper. Which is something you don't have purchasing a new brake.

The cross bleed is a real saviour if you ever need it.

Sent from the Shockcraft mobile typewriter


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Well, y’all talked me into it. I ordered the Dominion A4 for the front of my bike today. Got the rotor and Magura adapter as well. Hopefully the brake hose that comes on it isn’t too awful long. My plan is to run the brakes as they come, and if I like them, get the bleed kit later and cut the hose down to the correct length. If I don’t like them I can just not order the bleed kit, sell the brake, rotor, and adapter, and put the saints back on. We’ll see how it goes. I hope the rotor comes in true, because I evidently suck at straightening rotors.


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

MX9799 said:


> Well, y'all talked me into it. I ordered the Dominion A4 for the front of my bike today. Got the rotor and Magura adapter as well. Hopefully the brake hose that comes on it isn't too awful long. My plan is to run the brakes as they come, and if I like them, get the bleed kit later and cut the hose down to the correct length. If I don't like them I can just not order the bleed kit, sell the brake, rotor, and adapter, and put the saints back on. We'll see how it goes. I hope the rotor comes in true, because I evidently suck at straightening rotors.


Do you own a sram bleed kit? It works on the dominions.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

MX9799 said:


> because I evidently suck at straightening rotors.


I know someone will chime in and claim to be successful at it but I find it almost impossible to true a rotor once its warped enough for me to notice it. I can sometimes help it a bit, but oftentimes I just make it worse somewhere else. Once my rotors start singing I'll usually just replace it after a few frustrating sessions truing it. At times I've considered building a little truing stand so I can put a dial indicator on it and actually figure out what I'm doing but never seemed worth the effort.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

gus6464 said:


> Do you own a sram bleed kit? It works on the dominions.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


I do not.  I only own a shimano bleed kit. If I like the Dominions, I'm not really worried about buying the bleed kit. It's only like $32 from Jenson. I just didn't want to spend the money on it and shorten the hose until I'm sure that I like the brakes. Been on shimano brakes for a long time, and I like the short lever throw and stiff lever feel of the shimano brakes.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Preston67 said:


> I know someone will chime in and claim to be successful at it but I find it almost impossible to true a rotor once its warped enough for me to notice it. I can sometimes help it a bit, but oftentimes I just make it worse somewhere else. Once my rotors start singing I'll usually just replace it after a few frustrating sessions truing it. At times I've considered building a little truing stand so I can put a dial indicator on it and actually figure out what I'm doing but never seemed worth the effort.


I've tried now to replace the stock slx rotors on my bike, which are perfectly true, with three different brand new XT Ice-Tech rotors. All three of them came so warped that eliminating pad rub is all but impossible for me. I bought a truing fork to try to straighten them, but no matter what I do, I can't get them straight. So I gave up on the ice-tech rotors and put the noisy SLX rotors back on the bike. They scream like crazy under hard braking, but at least there's no pad rub. Hopefully the new Dominion setup will work well.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Most rotors, by the time they're in your hands, are not 100% true. And it's unfortunately not uncommon for a 6-bolt rotor to go out of true when installing it.

Straightening rotors really can be a pain if you don't have good light, a stand, and a little luck. I have never had the benefit of a rotor truing accessory on a wheel building stand, but honestly, I don't think my local bike shops even use those. 

I am pretty sure they just do it the same way most people would - put it in a stand where you can see the caliper really well, and start spinning the wheel slowly. Center the caliper as best you can before you start bending the rotor. Then bend the problem area as close to the nearest support (inner spider) as you can. It actually takes more force than you might initially suspect. Then spin again, slowly, and repeat as necessary. Takes persistence, a good eye, and patience.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

ColinL said:


> Most rotors, by the time they're in your hands, are not 100% true. And it's unfortunately not uncommon for a 6-bolt rotor to go out of true when installing it.
> 
> Straightening rotors really can be a pain if you don't have good light, a stand, and a little luck. I have never had the benefit of a rotor truing accessory on a wheel building stand, but honestly, I don't think my local bike shops even use those.
> 
> I am pretty sure they just do it the same way most people would - put it in a stand where you can see the caliper really well, and start spinning the wheel slowly. Center the caliper as best you can before you start bending the rotor. Then bend the problem area as close to the nearest support (inner spider) as you can. It actually takes more force than you might initially suspect. Then spin again, slowly, and repeat as necessary. Takes persistence, a good eye, and patience.


I could deal with a rotor that wasn't 100% true, so long as it was straight enough that I could keep the rotor off the pads.

I think my problem is light and lack of patience due to not enough light. It's really hard for me to see what is going between the pads on the front wheel due to the way the caliper sits. I'm pretty confident that if I had a truing accessory on a wheel building stand I could get one fairly straight.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

ColinL said:


> (...)Then bend the problem area as close to the nearest support (inner spider) as you can. It actually takes more force than you might initially suspect. Then spin again, slowly, and repeat as necessary. Takes persistence, a good eye, and patience.


This is exactly what I do, I don't care if the rotor is still wobbling, as long as it doesn't touch the pads to me is as if it's straight as an arrow. And eventually it will end warped again on the next, rock/stick/squirrel hit, so why bother wasting time.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

MX9799 said:


> I could deal with a rotor that wasn't 100% true, so long as it was straight enough that I could keep the rotor off the pads.
> 
> I think my problem is light and lack of patience due to not enough light. It's really hard for me to see what is going between the pads on the front wheel due to the way the caliper sits. I'm pretty confident that if I had a truing accessory on a wheel building stand I could get one fairly straight.


you'll need to get some good, strong light for sure. regarding the angle, though, if you have a bicycle workstand you should be able to mount the bike high and pivot it nose-down so that the caliper, pads and rotor passing through them are clearly seen. (edit: nose down for working on the front brake. nose up, obviously, working the rear.)

let's instead consider the worst possible alternative - no stand, and trying to spin the wheel while standing over the bike, and then adjusting the right spot on the rotor. I've literally tried that at trailside after a crash caused a bent rotor, and it's extremely difficult.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

ColinL said:


> you'll need to get some good, strong light for sure. regarding the angle, though, if you have a bicycle workstand you should be able to mount the bike high and pivot it nose-down so that the caliper, pads and rotor passing through them are clearly seen. (edit: nose down for working on the front brake. nose up, obviously, working the rear.)
> 
> let's instead consider the worst possible alternative - no stand, and trying to spin the wheel while standing over the bike, and then adjusting the right spot on the rotor. I've literally tried that at trailside after a crash caused a bent rotor, and it's extremely difficult.


I got a stand. Next time I work up the motivation to try to straighten one out, I'll give tipping the nose of the bike down to see if that helps. Seems like I can see pretty good working on the rear wheel, as putting the bike in the stand so that the rear caliper sits level gives a good view to the floor with light overhead. If I put a white rag or towel under the caliper on the floor, I can easily see what the rear rotor is doing, but the front is a lot harder to manage. I'll try tipping the nose down a little more next time to see if that helps. Hopefully my new Hayes rotor that gets here tomorrow won't have any issues.

Thanks ColinL.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I start truing the rotor by sound. Spin it and listen for rubbing sound. Look at the rim stickers and determine the position of the wheel where it rubs. Then rotate the wheel into this position and you will see which pad is in contact with rotor. Bend the disk and repeat. For fine tuning you need to sight. Usually there is on very specific line of sight where you can easily the gap. For front wheel it is straight down.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

My problem isn't finding the rub spot, its applying the correct amount of pressure to the exact correct area. Just for the record I do a lot of fabrication and am used to manipulating difficult things, TIG welding thin aluminum for example, or shaping metal and keeping things meticulous, so I'm used to working with my hands and eyes,. But I've just never been able to really do much other than fix gross rubbing spots and I always seem to introduce other small variances. For example I can make a decent improvement in the primary problem spot, but then seem to introduce another small probalm spot somehwere else.
I salute those of you that have cracked the code, but until I can get a dial indicator on rotor runout I just end up replacing them.

Back OT, the great thing about Hayes is they have a lot of pad rollback and the rotors are nice and thick.

Was on my Dh bike recently that had Shimano levers and Magura calipers, and the braking power is really strong, probably a touch better than Hayes, but I was reminded how much time I used to spend fiddling with the lever adjustment knob. Almost never touch it on the Hayes, even though as I've stated previously I prefer the way the Shimano levers feel in my fingers.


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## groundpounder17 (Oct 19, 2020)

Are most people running the 203mm front and rear or 203mm front with 180mm rear? I've had my brake options narrowed down to the Dominion A4 and the Magura MT7, but I've recently decided I'll go the A4 route. I'm worried the 203mm rotor in the rear might be too much. I'm a heavier rider around 200 lbs and will be mounting these on a canfield hardtail.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm 200lb rider and I run 203 mm front and rear on all my bikes. 
If you ride steep tech you actually put more heat into your rear rotor than your front.
This has been my thought for quite some time but I also recently saw an article espousing the same thing from people with more cred than a random poster on MTBR, they were talking about actually running a smaller rotor on the front. 
Although a bigger rotor gives you more stopping power, it also gives you a similar increase in modulation. The only reason IMO to run a smaller rotor either front or rear is weight, not control. 

Notice, i say "In my opinion". Not looking to get into a flame war about it 
ha, can't remember the last time I saw someone use that phrase.


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## groundpounder17 (Oct 19, 2020)

Preston67 said:


> I'm 200lb rider and I run 203 mm front and rear on all my bikes.
> If you ride steep tech you actually put more heat into your rear rotor than your front.
> This has been my thought for quite some time but I also recently saw an article espousing the same thing from people with more cred than a random poster on MTBR, they were talking about actually running a smaller rotor on the front.
> Although a bigger rotor gives you more stopping power, it also gives you a similar increase in modulation. The only reason IMO to run a smaller rotor either front or rear is weight, not control.
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I'm not worried about a few grams so I will be going with the 203mm f/r. Thanks!


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## groundpounder17 (Oct 19, 2020)

Well, thanks to this thread I was persuaded to used the dominion A4 brakes over the Magura MT7. I just placed my order for the Dominion A4 brakes and 203mm f/r rotors. I was able to get the rear IS bracket but they are out of stock on the post mount bracket I need for the front. I’m also getting ready to have some wheelsets put together for my build and I was wanting to go with White Industries CL hubs. Can anyone recommend some good CL to 6 bolt adapters for the Hayes rotors? I could just go with 6 bolt hubs but I prefer the CL


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## ear_ache (Apr 18, 2012)

I love my A2's! I'm coming from XT's (both 4 pots and 2 pots) and Guides. The modulation on these is incredible. The levers are a little slick, I prefer the ergonomics of shimano as well as the ease of working with mineral but the performance and lack of dead stroke is amazing.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

I'm on a4 for 203 mm Rotor front and rear, 180 lbs, definitely don't seem overpowered.
I guess the modulation makes up for it. Imo it's shimano users who might want to scale down the rotor, not to be locking the wheel all the time.

I currently have a wheel in the rear, stolen from my girls e-bike with sram rotor, works flawless.

For the guy who wants to try them without shortening the hose, I'll notice that my pads were rubbing all the time, then I adjusted caliper, it started rubbing other side after a while before I cut the hose and bled. After that no problems.



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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

romulin said:


> I'm on a4 for 203 mm Rotor front and rear, 180 lbs, definitely don't seem overpowered.
> I guess the modulation makes up for it. Imo it's shimano users who might want to scale down the rotor, not to be locking the wheel all the time.
> 
> I currently have a wheel in the rear, stolen from my girls e-bike with sram rotor, works flawless.
> ...


So you're saying that with a full length hose, you couldn't eliminate pad rub. Wonderful.......


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MX9799 said:


> So you're saying that with a full length hose, you couldn't eliminate pad rub. Wonderful.......


That's a bleed issue. If you have an air bubble it'll make the pad retraction inconsistent and reduce the pull back.

When a brake is bled correctly the only negative of a longer hose is a slight reduction in lever firmness.

Sent from the Shockcraft mobile typewriter


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

My dominion brakes came in today and they’ll go on the bike tonight. I’m not going to be very happy if I have to purchase and wait on a bleed kit just to get the rotor off the pads of a brand new set of brakes....


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Well, the front dominion brake went on without issue. I’ll get them bedded in tomorrow (it’s dark here now), maybe get an easy ride on them on Sunday, and then they’ll get put to the test next weekend at the Ride Kanuga bike park. 

The rotor had a very slight wobble to it, but not enough of a wobble that I couldn’t get the caliper aligned with no pad contact. The Crosshair alignment feature is something all brake manufacturers should pay royalties to Hayes for so they can incorporate it into their calipers. Hahaha. Such an easy, foolproof way to center the caliper with none of the frustrating movement that always seems to happen to me when tightening down the caliper bolts after finally getting the caliper positioned just right. Thanks for that Hayes. 

I will say in the shop the lever feels less stiff, and like it has more dead-stroke then the saints it replaced. I can live with that if there is plenty of stopping power on tap with minimal lever throw. We’ll see how they stack up soon.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Got the dominions bedded this morning and then rode around the house a little with my daughter. The dominions have a longer lever throw to get to max power than the saints. That’s gonna take a little getting used to, but I like them so far. My trails at my house have one pretty steep, short hill with a turn at the bottom near a big creek, and I had no problem getting slowed down for the turn after blasting down that hill. 

It seems as though, compared to the saints, there’s more lever travel to get to max braking power / wheel lock-up, but once you get to where the lever is stiff, there’s just as much, or more power on tap with the dominions. It also seems like it takes less hand/finger power to get that max braking power as well with this setup. Nose manuals on the long, heavy ebike are easier with these brakes than with the saints (my daughters think it’s funny when I do them).

I think I’ll like these brakes regardless of the long lever throw as long as I’m not having to pull the lever into my fingers at the bike park and they stay quiet (noise is my biggest gripe with the saints).


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## groundpounder17 (Oct 19, 2020)

MX9799 said:


> Got the dominions bedded this morning and then rode around the house a little with my daughter. The dominions have a longer lever throw to get to max power than the saints. That's gonna take a little getting used to, but I like them so far. My trails at my house have one pretty steep, short hill with a turn at the bottom near a big creek, and I had no problem getting slowed down for the turn after blasting down that hill.
> 
> It seems as though, compared to the saints, there's more lever travel to get to max braking power / wheel lock-up, but once you get to where the lever is stiff, there's just as much, or more power on tap with the dominions. It also seems like it takes less hand/finger power to get that max braking power as well with this setup. Nose manuals on the long, heavy ebike are easier with these brakes than with the saints (my daughters think it's funny when I do them).
> 
> I think I'll like these brakes regardless of the long lever throw as long as I'm not having to pull the lever into my fingers at the bike park and they stay quiet (noise is my biggest gripe with the saints).


Are you sure they have been bled completely and there is no air in the system? Are your lines excessively long? Both of these can cause that.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

I don’t have a bleed kit that works for them, so right now it’s a factory bleed with a factory length hose.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

MX9799 said:


> I think I'll like these brakes regardless of the long lever throw as long as I'm not having to pull the lever into my fingers at the bike park and they stay quiet (noise is my biggest gripe with the saints).


Excellent! For quietude, stick with the semi-metallic pads. I found the sintered to be ok under normal conditions, but they got loud immediately after creek crossings, or when they became unusually hot. They go back to normal fairly quickly, but for me, I prefer the semi's.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Dougal said:


> That's a bleed issue. If you have an air bubble it'll make the pad retraction inconsistent and reduce the pull back.
> 
> When a brake is bled correctly the only negative of a longer hose is a slight reduction in lever firmness.
> 
> Sent from the Shockcraft mobile typewriter


This. Just wanted to let you know, not that you sell these just based on that

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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

MX9799 said:


> I*t seems as though, compared to the saints, there's more lever travel to get to max braking power / wheel lock-up*, but once you get to where the lever is stiff, there's just as much, or more power on tap with the dominions. It also seems like it takes less hand/finger power to get that max braking power as well with this setup.


that first one is certainly what you notice right away when riding Hayes compared to Shimano, but it's simply a product of the Shimano being on/off and having a lot less modulation. the dominion does not have slack, it starts moving the piston a very little bit, with low force, early in the lever travel. what you feel is modulation.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

ColinL said:


> that first one is certainly what you notice right away when riding Hayes compared to Shimano, but it's simply a product of the Shimano being on/off and having a lot less modulation. the dominion does not have slack, it starts moving the piston a very little bit, with low force, early in the lever travel. what you feel is modulation.


Maybe so. I can see the pads moving to the rotor immediately when looking at them while pulling the lever just a tad. It just seems like the ramp up to full power takes longer than with saints. Call it modulation if you want, but at speed I don't feel anything significant happening until the lever starts getting solid.

Either way, after putting about 10 miles on the brake yesterday, I'm finding that I like them. It only took a few minutes to adjust to the new bite point and getting the stopping power that I need became something that I don't have to think about. I can say that I like the action, and the fact that it takes less force from my hands to get as much or more braking power than what the saints provide. I'm gonna stick with them, and get a set for the back wheel too.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

When you have the front wheel up in the air, you really feel the modulation abilities of those brakes.


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

You guys have any thoughts on Dominions for (street)trials use? (like Danny Mac, though obviously he's nowhere near my level ) . I'm currently using Magura MT5, but they are starting to leak from the lever where the plunger sits. The levers are also quite flimsy and flexy in general. Used a Hope Trial Zone previously, but like the Magura better for slightly more modulation and a bit more lockup power too. The Hayes sound very interesting, with the light lever action and modulation, and still lots of power.

What I would need most for trials, is a brake with strong lockup power when cold (they never get hot). I haven't found any soft organic pads like you can get for Magura (their Race pads), so was wondering, how's the Hayes' performance when cold, with either of the stock pads? Can you lock up any wheel and OTB at will? Or do they feel a bit slippy until you get some heat in them?


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## Forbiddenforlife (Oct 3, 2020)

Boozzz said:


> You guys have any thoughts on Dominions for (street)trials use? (like Danny Mac, though obviously he's nowhere near my level ) . I'm currently using Magura MT5, but they are starting to leak from the lever where the plunger sits. The levers are also quite flimsy and flexy in general. Used a Hope Trial Zone previously, but like the Magura better for slightly more modulation and a bit more lockup power too. The Hayes sound very interesting, with the light lever action and modulation, and still lots of power.
> 
> What I would need most for trials, is a brake with strong lockup power when cold (they never get hot). I haven't found any soft organic pads like you can get for Magura (their Race pads), so was wondering, how's the Hayes' performance when cold, with either of the stock pads? Can you lock up any wheel and OTB at will? Or do they feel a bit slippy until you get some heat in them?


I think you would love them. Ive Ben riding them in the pnw in wet cold conditions and have never felt the power fade. They are amazingly consistent and have a firm bite point.

i would also recommend using galfer wave 2mm thick rotors. They pair amazingly with the dominions


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

Forbiddenforlife said:


> I think you would love them. Ive Ben riding them in the pnw in wet cold conditions and have never felt the power fade. They are amazingly consistent and have a firm bite point.
> 
> i would also recommend using galfer wave 2mm thick rotors. They pair amazingly with the dominions


Thanks! After some more thought, I'm afraid the setscrew in the mounting tab will be a bit of a stress riser. Trials brakes see huge peak forces (Shimano calipers tend to crack, Formula brakes start to leak past the pistons). Maybe I should be looking for an alternative lever for the Magura caliper.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Boozzz said:


> Thanks! After some more thought, I'm afraid the setscrew in the mounting tab will be a bit of a stress riser. Trials brakes see huge peak forces (Shimano calipers tend to crack, Formula brakes start to leak past the pistons). Maybe I should be looking for an alternative lever for the Magura caliper.


I can't imagine how a trials brake would see more force than downhill use, and as previously noted, close to zero heat buildup.

I am very confident the Dominion would work well for you. In fact I'd call them overkill, but I mention this because you seem concerned they would not be up to the task and I'm certain that is incorrect. :thumbsup:


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

ColinL said:


> I can't imagine how a trials brake would see more force than downhill use, and as previously noted, close to zero heat buildup.
> 
> I am very confident the Dominion would work well for you. In fact I'd call them overkill, but I mention this because you seem concerned they would not be up to the task and I'm certain that is incorrect. :thumbsup:


It's quite different, the peak forces are far greater with trials compared to downhill; huge impacts to locked up wheels, and often backward moving impacts too, whereas with DH everything is much more gradual and you generally don't move backwards. Especially for us less smooth and heavier riders, can't all be Danny MacAskill  It's quite unnerving seeing the amount of cracked Shimano calipers and adapters on the UK trials forums, plus the trouble I've had myself with brakes that were fine before they went on the trials bike; leaking pistons, leaking levers, all from too much pressure. But, I still might give the Dominions a shot


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Boozzz said:


> It's quite different, the peak forces are far greater with trials compared to downhill; huge impacts to locked up wheels, and often backward moving impacts too, whereas with DH everything is much more gradual and you generally don't move backwards. Especially for us less smooth and heavier riders, can't all be Danny MacAskill  It's quite unnerving seeing the amount of cracked Shimano calipers and adapters on the UK trials forums, plus the trouble I've had myself with brakes that were fine before they went on the trials bike; leaking pistons, leaking levers, all from too much pressure. But, I still might give the Dominions a shot


I can see where trials could cause high peak forces. I'd expect that trials riding would really benefit from fine brake control.

The Dominion A4 calipers are pretty heavy and I think they's hold up well. I also think the great modulation would be very good for trials.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Curveball said:


> I can see where trials could cause high peak forces. I'd expect that trials riding would really benefit from fine brake control.
> 
> The Dominion A4 calipers are pretty heavy and I think they's hold up well. I also think the great modulation would be very good for trials.


true, and fair enough that it's a different niche.

the lever effort is absolutely the lowest among any brake, so I think that would be a huge asset to reduce to hand fatigue.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Okay, why did I just post a video of Remy Metailler riding down cliffs?

Well, for one thing, he's a total badass rider. But the main point is that he rides extremely high consequence terrain in BC with gigantic, super-steep slabs, cliffs, drops, etc. Places where you could die from an equipment failure. Places where you put ultimate trust in your brakes.

So, what does Remy use for brakes?

Hayes Dominions.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Best advertising ever.
It just works and one can really see it, in action.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Yes these brakes are awesome.
Yes Remi is absolutely badass rider.
But he is sponsored by Hayes, I'm sure he likes those brakes too, but if they don't give him a contract next year, he'll be swearing by different brand, doing nose manuals down slabs as before. 
Same as he swapped tires sponsor 


Also I'd be very curious what are the go to brakes for trials riders that withstand the abuse. Sram wasn't mentioned earlier.. I'd still put my bet on dominions 
Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

romulin said:


> Yes these brakes are awesome.
> he is sponsored by Hayes, I'm sure he likes those brakes too, but if they don't give him a contract next year, he'll be swearing by different brand, doing nose manuals down slabs as before.


I'm happy with my XTR M9120 and before it was Saint M820.
Works like swiss watch every time.
XTR have slightly better modulation than Saint.


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

romulin said:


> Also I'd be very curious what are the go to brakes for trials riders that withstand the abuse. Sram wasn't mentioned earlier.. I'd still put my bet on dominions


Most of us that run discs, run Magura MT5 or 7. The caliper is quite burly (though I do get a bit of oil seepage past the piston seals sometimes after a heavy session, don't know if that's normal?). Pad rock is really annoying on them though, and the levers flex too much. Shigura is an option, but current Shimano levers are of questionable build quality.

You've also got the Hope Trial Zone, which is based on the old V2, but has more power thanks to Hope using a smaller master cylinder in the Tech3 levers than in the old Tech/Moto levers. Downside is they have massively tall pads, use proprietary discs with an extra high brake track, and since most trials bikes aren't exactly straight, they're a pain to setup. If they're a tiny bit off of perpendicular, they feel mushy. They do have good power, and my old ones never leaked. Bending discs does get expensive fast.

The pre-servo wave Saint was a popular option too (see Danny's old vids). I don't know of anyone using SRAM. I have used Guides in an emergency and of course they were terrible. Codes might work well though.

Formula I've had nothing but trouble (instant leaking) with. So yeah, maybe the Hayes are something to try out


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## Jan Beton brake John (Dec 23, 2020)

Hi guys 
I have a few practical questions regarding the Hayes dominion a4 brakes.
I have got Sram centerline rotors, which are not very worn, but it is not recommended I use these with the dominions, correct? This would be because of the thickness of the rotors and the hight of the contact area. What rotors do you recommend for these brakes? I think the D-series rotors are very expensive and would like a cheaper alternative. I think magura storm hc rotors would fit the bill, what do you think?

Can I use my Sram bleed kit for these brakes even though the threads are not quite long enough?

I can use magura adaptors if the Hayes adaptors are out of stock, correct?

I read that I can use magura shiftmix on these brakes to make my matchmaker shifter and dropper lever fit. Can someone please confirm this is correct. I would love to hear from someone who had tried it, since there is no information on the internet about this hack at all.


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

Buy hope adapters. Those work no issues and it's what my shop uses on all their dominion installs because the hayes ones are non existant.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I can confirm that Magura adapters work. 

Regarding rotors - how thick are the SRAM rotors? I used Shimano rotors and they were too thin - too much freestroke for my liking. Got the Hayes rotors and the feel of the brakes improved a lot.

Don't know about the SRAM bleeding kit or Matchmaker.


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## Jan Beton brake John (Dec 23, 2020)

I'm not sure about the thickness of my rotors. My rotors are 180mm and I know Sram uses different thicknesses for different sizes. That makes is super difficult to find the thickness of my rotor. I don't have a measuring device precise enough to measure decimals of millimetres.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Magura's will fit, but if you're using IS/Post it's going to be a lot tighter than the Hayes adapters (~ 1mm maybe 1.5mm of clearance at the IS bolt mount, Hayes has these mounts at the bottom of the adapter, not the top). I found Hayes btw, both online. I found Hope adapters, also online, but that was lost in the mail.. so I can't confirm.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

arnea said:


> I can confirm that Magura adapters work.
> 
> Regarding rotors - how thick are the SRAM rotors? I used Shimano rotors and they were too thin - too much freestroke for my liking. Got the Hayes rotors and the feel of the brakes improved a lot.
> 
> Don't know about the SRAM bleeding kit or Matchmaker.


1.85 is your rotor thickness.


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

Use magura storm hc rotors. They are a hair thicker than the stock hayes.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Whether its true or not when you watch the introduction videos on the Hayes they talk a lot about how they instrumented and took a deep look at every aspect of the braking system, the rotors being part of that. I don't think you'd lose any performance but you might gain some noise using a different rotor ? They talked a lot about how they worked on the resonances and everything.

Btu that being said, the one thing with my Hayes is that when they get hot and then get a short cool down, they are pretty noisy until they get hot again. Ie stop in the middle of a downhill for a breather, and they make a racket for the first 45 seconds after starting (with no loss of performance though). I would say overall they are much quieter in the rain though, my Saints would howl and squeak like crazy until you got full heat into them when it was raining.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Well, I finally got myself the Hayes bleed kit and an actual hose cutter and trimmed the line on my front brake so there wasn’t a ton of extra hose looped out in front of the bars. I’d say that the feel of the brakes after trimming the hose and doing a good bleed is about the same as before, but that’s just from a test ride in the yard. Haven’t got it on a real trail yet. 

Quick question on the bleed. I noticed as I was bleeding the brake that fluid leaks out around the bleed ports when doing the bleed. Not a ton, but I could see it coming out when squeezing the syringes at the MC and caliper. Is this normal? I had the bleed adapters screwed in about as snug as hand tight could get. 

Also, since I took the caliper off the bike for the bleed, I did confirm that the shimano pm 180-203 brake adapters work with the dominion caliper. I’m not sure if any of the other sizes do, but if you use a 180-203 adapter with 203mm rotors, that shimano adapter will work.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't recall a significant amount of fluid leaking out of the ports, except for when I was applying positive pressure before removing the bleed adapters. But, I really wasn't looking and I was pulling on the plungers as I was pushing on the other end. 

It could also just be that I didn't pay attention.


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## tuskenraider (Sep 9, 2012)

I have leakage bleeding my T2's. There are no rubber seals, all metal. I'd say it's typical.


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

Hi there! I'm planning to buy hayes dominion a4 however I just bought a new set of 203mm rotors(trp and shimano rt66 both are 1.8mm thickness) . I'm just wondering if I can use my current rotors with dominion a4? Will I get any issues? I'm planning to just use them for a couple of rides until I have the extra money to throw for the rotors. Thank you guys and happy holidays!


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Well, after trimming my brake hose and doing a full bleed, my brakes are squealing like crazy and they dont have the lock-up power that they had before I did that work. They still feel the same at the lever, but I can’t get the brake to lock up the front tire like before. I took the pads out and found traces of brake fluid on the backs of the pads on one side. The pistons on that side looked shiny and wet as well. I’m guessing after bleeding the brakes I have a piston seal leak, and fluid has run down onto the rotor causing the squeal and slipping. 

I loved the way these dominions felt, but I’ll never trade a certain feel for durability. If all it takes is a brake bleed to blow a piston seal these brakes are going to have to go.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MX9799 said:


> Well, after trimming my brake hose and doing a full bleed, my brakes are squealing like crazy and they dont have the lock-up power that they had before I did that work. They still feel the same at the lever, but I can't get the brake to lock up the front tire like before. I took the pads out and found traces of brake fluid on the backs of the pads on one side. The pistons on that side looked shiny and wet as well. I'm guessing after bleeding the brakes I have a piston seal leak, and fluid has run down onto the rotor causing the squeal and slipping.
> 
> I loved the way these dominions felt, but I'll never trade a certain feel for durability. If all it takes is a brake bleed to blow a piston seal these brakes are going to have to go.


If you had a leak it would leak with every lever stroke. Sounds instead like you've dribbled some DOT fluid onto your pads while bleeding.

Take them out, boil them (DOT fluid dissolves out in water and faster in hot water), wash out the caliper, put them back in and you'll be good.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

soothsayer1991 said:


> Hi there! I'm planning to buy hayes dominion a4 however I just bought a new set of 203mm rotors(trp and shimano rt66 both are 1.8mm thickness) . I'm just wondering if I can use my current rotors with dominion a4? Will I get any issues? I'm planning to just use them for a couple of rides until I have the extra money to throw for the rotors. Thank you guys and happy holidays!


I'm now on sram Rotor (1,85mm) no difference to Hayes rotor that is up front.
Can't see the 0,5mm being a problem, the brake will compensate for it as if the brake pads were more used

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Dougal said:


> If you had a leak it would leak with every lever stroke. Sounds instead like you've dribbled some DOT fluid onto your pads while bleeding.
> 
> Take them out, boil them (DOT fluid dissolves out in water and faster in hot water), wash out the caliper, put them back in and you'll be good.


I'm not sure it's not leaking with every lever stroke. I also don't know how I got fluid on the pads when bleeding since the pads were out of the caliper and the caliper was off the bike. I did have fluid leaking from the fitting at the bleed port so I guess some could've run down onto the pistons that I didn't get cleaned off. I'll just switch the pads out with the metal ones that came with it, clean the rotor with alcohol, and see if that brings the power bite back. If it does, then I'll boil everything and put the semi pads back in.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Preston67 said:


> Btu that being said, the one thing with my Hayes is that when they get hot and then get a short cool down, they are pretty noisy until they get hot again. Ie stop in the middle of a downhill for a breather, and they make a racket for the first 45 seconds after starting (with no loss of performance though). I would say overall they are much quieter in the rain though, my Saints would howl and squeak like crazy until you got full heat into them when it was raining.


every sintered brake pad I've used made noise like that. the organic or semi-metallic is a lot less. but they fade under heavy use. it's pretty cool of hayes to include both types of pads with the brakes.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Dougal said:


> If you had a leak it would leak with every lever stroke. Sounds instead like you've dribbled some DOT fluid onto your pads while bleeding.
> 
> Take them out, boil them (DOT fluid dissolves out in water and faster in hot water), wash out the caliper, put them back in and you'll be good.


Dougal,
I cleaned my rotor, caliper, and pistons really well and put the spare metal pads in the caliper. The good brake power is back now, but it seems that the metal brake pads are thicker than the semi's and I now can't get the rotor off the pads. I pushed the pistons all the way into the caliper before installing the pads, but it now seems as if there is next to no room between the pads and the rotor, and what little bit of rotor wobble I do have is always on one pad or the other. How do I fix this new issue? Thanks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MX9799 said:


> Dougal,
> I cleaned my rotor, caliper, and pistons really well and put the spare metal pads in the caliper. The good brake power is back now, but it seems that the metal brake pads are thicker than the semi's and I now can't get the rotor off the pads. I pushed the pistons all the way into the caliper before installing the pads, but it now seems as if there is next to no room between the pads and the rotor, and what little bit of rotor wobble I do have is always on one pad or the other. How do I fix this new issue? Thanks.


Sounds like you've got a bit much fluid in there. Do you have the red bleed block? Jam that in the caliper (with no pads) and crack a bleed port. It'll vent some fluid.


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## agauna (Oct 26, 2016)

I know a few people had the issue of noise while braking. I saw this a couple days ago. A company in Utah is making ceramic pads and they're available for the Dominion also. Their lower tier pad is claimed to have the same stopping power as sintered while still being quiet. So maybe this is an option?


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## agauna (Oct 26, 2016)

So here's my experience with the Dominions so far...
Note: this is the first set of brakes I've ever installed. Installed the front in no time (203mm). I was able to use a Shimano adapter I had laying around. Internal routing for the rear but as many had warned the Shimano adapter didn't work (180mm). So I ordered the Hayes adapter. By the end of that week it was installed. The cross hair system really is simple and intuitive. Loved it. The rotors were what came on the bike. TRP-41 2.3mm thick rotors. The fronts felt amazing. I think the thicker rotor decreased the throw a bit because I began engaging long before what I've read other people experienced. 
The soft rear lever is what I had to deal with. Lever would go nearly to the bar. I bled it like 4 times using the Hayes kit, following their tutorial. I don't have a stand so I made something up myself that was okay. I gave up and took it to my LBS (1.5 hrs away). The guys hadn't seen them before but immediately commented on how awesome they looked. I agree. After wrestling with them for thirty minutes and still a soft lever they decided to adjust the bite point out almost all the way, then bleed them, then adjust it back in. That seemed to do the trick. The rear is nearrrrly as good as the front.
First impression, just a darn good brake. So light to engage with a ton of power on hand. I can't even use my Sram guide ultimates on my trail bike without shaking my head in disappointment now.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like you've got a bit much fluid in there. Do you have the red bleed block? Jam that in the caliper (with no pads) and crack a bleed port. It'll vent some fluid.


Well, I tried that, as well as exercising and cleaning the caliper pistons as much as I could. Still can't get the disc off the pads. It seems that there's not much room at all between the pads now for some reason, and what little bit of wobble my rotor has won't let me get the caliper lined up to keep it from hitting one of the pads. I can watch the rotor go from hitting the outside pad to the inside pad with less than 1/8th of a turn on the cross hair alignment screws. Frustrating.....

Maybe I just need to vent more fluid out of the caliper, but who knows. Getting tired of messing with them. Should've kept them like they came and just dealt with a long brake hose.....


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MX9799 said:


> Well, I tried that, as well as exercising and cleaning the caliper pistons as much as I could. Still can't get the disc off the pads. It seems that there's not much room at all between the pads now for some reason, and what little bit of wobble my rotor has won't let me get the caliper lined up to keep it from hitting one of the pads. I can watch the rotor go from hitting the outside pad to the inside pad with less than 1/8th of a turn on the cross hair alignment screws. Frustrating.....
> 
> Maybe I just need to vent more fluid out of the caliper, but who knows. Getting tired of messing with them. Should've kept them like they came and just dealt with a long brake hose.....


Sounds like your fluid volume is right. You just need to tweak the rotor to straight. Same as any other brake. If you have any air in the system the pistons and pads won't retract cleanly. But they also retract better after a ride or two.

Rotors warp slightly when you bolt them to the hub and need straightened pretty much every time they're removed and reinstalled.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like your fluid volume is right. You just need to tweak the rotor to straight. Same as any other brake. If you have any air in the system the pistons and pads won't retract cleanly. But they also retract better after a ride or two.
> 
> Rotors warp slightly when you bolt them to the hub and need straightened pretty much every time they're removed and reinstalled.


I suck at straightening rotors. They usually wind up no better or worse after I mess with them.

If the pads retract farther after a few rides then it should be good. It's only a slight rub that doesn't slow the wheel down any noticeable amount when spinning it on the stand. If it didn't make noise you wouldn't know the rotor was hitting.


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

gus6464 said:


> Buy hope adapters. Those work no issues and it's what my shop uses on all their dominion installs because the hayes ones are non existant.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


Hi! What specific hope adapter are you using? I'm mainly looking for adapter and I don't know what to get. I have both 203mm rotors front and rear. Thank you!



romulin said:


> I'm now on sram Rotor (1,85mm) no difference to Hayes rotor that is up front.
> Can't see the 0,5mm being a problem, the brake will compensate for it as if the brake pads were more used
> 
> Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


Thank you! I already installed the hayes and they worked. Thanks again!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Hayes has adapters back in stock btw.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

soothsayer1991 said:


> Hi! What specific hope adapter are you using? I'm mainly looking for adapter and I don't know what to get. I have both 203mm rotors front and rear. Thank you!
> 
> Thank you! I already installed the hayes and they worked. Thanks again!


I've gotten these Magura ones as nobody stocks Hayes around here.
Magura QM 44 Adapter PM 180-203mm black https://m.bikester.ch/magura-qm-44-adapter-pm-180-203mm-black-1069952.html

Assuming your fork /frame is 180mm pm

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Anybody running a 223mm rotor with the Hayes Dominion A4's? If so, what adapter are you using? I picked up a galfer 223mm rotor since the thickness specs were really close to the hayes rotors. I also grabbed a galfer 180-223 adapter hoping it would work, but unfortunately the caliper wouldn't set flush on the adapter.

I would assume a Hayes 160-203 would work to get me to 223mm based on my 180 post mounts, but just wanted to make sure before I spent more money. Thanks.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

nope. I assume you are talking about the front only, as I am not personally aware of any frame that can clear a 223 in the rear, but I guess one might exist.

is this an e-bike? I really can't imagine why this is needed as a dominion with a 203 rotor is a whole lot of braking power and with sintered pads, a whole lot of resistance to fade.. ?


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

ColinL said:


> nope. I assume you are talking about the front only, as I am not personally aware of any frame that can clear a 223 in the rear, but I guess one might exist.
> 
> is this an e-bike? I really can't imagine why this is needed as a dominion with a 203 rotor is a whole lot of braking power and with sintered pads, a whole lot of resistance to fade.. ?


Yes, it's going on the front of an ebike. I'm not 100% sure that it's "*needed*" either, but I wanted to give it a try to see what a bigger rotor felt like.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Not sure but I think Lewis Buchanan said he was on the big trp rotors on his druid. Maybe only front tho. 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Made it work with a Hayes +43mm adapter (160-203) and a galfer 223mm rotor.








I think there's a bit less lever throw with the galfer rotor. According to google, the Hayes rotor is 1.95mm thick, and galfer claims their rotor is 2mm thick, so maybe that's why.
The dominion caliper just barely fits onto the Hayes +43mm adapter. They left just enough room between the shoulder near the top bolt and the caliper to see some daylight.
With some luck it won't rain this week and I'll hopefully be able to test the setup this weekend if the trails are open.


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## PatRidesBikes (Aug 19, 2019)

Hoping that some high-up at Hayes follows this thread.....

PLEASE release a special edition in a different color than the black/bronze. Maybe black/yellow (like the MT7 yellow). 

Thank you! (I plan to buy a set anyways, but its cramping my color scheme)


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

I changed from Magura MT7 to a set of Dominions recently and figured I'd give my feedback. The Magura's were a great brake system, especially with the HC3 lever and Trickstuff pads. The reasons I changed were I felt that they needed quite a bit of lever effort for that last 5% of braking force and I like trying new things.

The Dominions. Fit and finish is good. Bleed process no more difficult than any other system and both levers feel the same after the bleed. First thing I noticed with the Dominions was the lever throw and the lever action. It has a super smooth action, feels quality and the lever throw is quite large compared to the Magura. 

On the trail (after bedding in the semi pads, 203 f & r, Banshee Titan) the lever throw takes a little getting used to and I had to stop a couple of times to move lever assembly further inboard to find the best location but it didn't take long to adapt and feel comfortable. The semi pads have reasonable bite and they feel similar to the Magura's right up until near max braking. Here they feel better as there is less lever effort required for max braking and the feel thru the lever is fantastic, just hovering on the point of locking up with no dramas. Brakes run silently, even after a layer of dust has been applied (Magura owners will recognise this point as when the rotors start rubbing and singing) and so far they have been almost set and forget (the ultimate goal IMO).

Things I don't like/haven't dialed in yet on the Dominions..

Rear rotor noise on medium force brake application. Light application is silent, so is full braking but the bit in the middle the rear did make quite a bit of noise...almost like the pads are starting to glaze and the rotor is pushing thru the pads instead of the pads biting (it's not but it feels like that). I did have a Magura adaptor to begin with which was the worst but have since changed to the Hayes adaptor which has definitely helped and reduced the noise by 50%. Yesterday I swapped to the metal pads in the rear and this helped even further. It hasn't removed the noise entirely but now I don't have the attention grabbing squawking sounds on every corner.

I'd like to reduce the lever throw slightly. I'm having to change the brake position and hand position on the bars to adapt to the lever whereas with the Magura it had enough adjustment to adjust to my preferred finger position exactly. If I could reduce the throw I could bring the lever closer to the bar which I prefer. I'm sure I'll adapt but I've been on Magura's for years and have that muscle memory for now.

Overall a great brake and fingers crossed they stay the same long term.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Comparison pic of Hayes vs Magura 203 adapter. Hayes puts the caliper in a different position and is of a more sturdy design.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Springs, I put a galfer 2mm thick rotor on my bike and it reduced the lever throw a pretty good amount. It was supposedly only .05mm thicker, but it shortened the lever throw a pretty good amount. I was actually surprised with how short the lever throw was after the switch.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Edit to my previous...rear 203 brake rotor still making noise with the sintered pads. Might have to try a 180mm rotor..


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Fitted the 180 rotor and the reverberation is still there. I think it may have to do with the dropouts on the Banshee Titan rather than the brake itself.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

springs said:


> Fitted the 180 rotor and the reverberation is still there. I think it may have to do with the dropouts on the Banshee Titan rather than the brake itself.


it is possible to get some vibration from the frame or brake mount flexing but I don't know anything about your Titan to know if that's a commonly reported issue or not.

regarding braking noise, sintered pads will always be noisier than organic or hybrid / semi-metallic. they just are. if the rotor is not perfectly true you can also get noise and vibration.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

springs said:


> Fitted the 180 rotor and the reverberation is still there. I think it may have to do with the dropouts on the Banshee Titan rather than the brake itself.


To rule-out pad/rotor issues you can sometimes swap the pads and rotor to the front and see if the problem moves or stays.

I had a really flexy rear stay on my previous bike. On a 203mm it just would not shut up. I had to file the mount to make some clearance (non standard disc tabs) and fit a 180mm. Only then did it go quiet.

Some bikes are just tuning forks. At least front forks give a solid mount now.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Dougal said:


> To rule-out pad/rotor issues you can sometimes swap the pads and rotor to the front and see if the problem moves or stays.
> 
> I had a really flexy rear stay on my previous bike. On a 203mm it just would not shut up. I had to file the mount to make some clearance (non standard disc tabs) and fit a 180mm. Only then did it go quiet.
> 
> Some bikes are just tuning forks. At least front forks give a solid mount now.


Swapped the front pads to the rear and vice versa and the reverberation remains. Swapped rotors with no change to the noise.

Fitted Magura MT7 rear with Hope 180 floating rotor with Magura adapter and it is silent.

Another thing I have noticed aside from the reverberation on the Dominions is the pistons can move in the calipers with no lever application. It takes a fairly aggressive hit on the trail (front or rear but mainly front) but when it happens the pistons retract and the take up point at the lever is much earlier and it takes two lever applications to get the pistons back to where they should be to have an effective brake. I used to get the same thing with Shimano brakes, never with the Magura. Brakes are bled correctly (I checked again yesterday), fully serviceable and functional in every other scenario.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Very weird. I was thinking perhaps that the dropouts on your banshee might just be not fully engaged with the surface, but having to pump brakes smells more like there's air in the system. Did you cross-bleed the calipers themselves (not the line and reservoir)?

I've had none of these issues with mine FWIW.. although the dropouts on my paradox are fixed, so that's just one less potential spot for harmonics to resonate.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

dysfunction said:


> Very weird. I was thinking perhaps that the dropouts on your banshee might just be not fully engaged with the surface, but having to pump brakes smells more like there's air in the system. Did you cross-bleed the calipers themselves (not the line and reservoir)?
> 
> I've had none of these issues with mine FWIW.. although the dropouts on my paradox are fixed, so that's just one less potential spot for harmonics to resonate.


Yeah cross bled the calipers as well, I'm as sure as I can be that there is no air in there but you never know I guess. I'm pretty confident its the pistons moving back from the force of the hit. It's not something I'm that concerned about at this stage as it only happens maybe once per ride...as long as it doesn't get any worse over time lol

Regarding the reverberation, I might try a 2mm Galfer rotor in the future to see if that helps. Interestingly it made the same noise with the Dominion caliper on the Hayes mount with the 180mm Hope rotor.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

springs said:


> Swapped the front pads to the rear and vice versa and the reverberation remains. Swapped rotors with no change to the noise.
> 
> Fitted Magura MT7 rear with Hope 180 floating rotor with Magura adapter and it is silent.
> 
> Another thing I have noticed aside from the reverberation on the Dominions is the pistons can move in the calipers with no lever application. It takes a fairly aggressive hit on the trail (front or rear but mainly front) but when it happens the pistons retract and the take up point at the lever is much earlier and it takes two lever applications to get the pistons back to where they should be to have an effective brake. I used to get the same thing with Shimano brakes, never with the Magura. Brakes are bled correctly (I checked again yesterday), fully serviceable and functional in every other scenario.


Now I've never had the pistons retract from a hard hit. But I have had them retract a bit during rapid cool down when pads are getting thin (which is like fluid being low).
I'm talking about chairlift riding in cold conditions (like <5C). The brakes going from probably 100-200C to 5C in a few minutes.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Now I've never had the pistons retract from a hard hit. But I have had them retract a bit during rapid cool down when pads are getting thin (which is like fluid being low).
> I'm talking about chairlift riding in cold conditions (like <5C). The brakes going from probably 100-200C to 5C in a few minutes.


I'm not sure what else it could be as generally when there is air in the system in can be felt at the lever and both levers feel rock solid. My experience of this previously was with Shimano 4 pot XTbrakes and prior to that was when racing motorbikes when a decent tankslapper (that you were lucky enough to stay onboard) would push the pistons into the caliper and give the same feeling at the lever until pressure was applied a couple of times.


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## ear_ache (Apr 18, 2012)

Can anyone give me a little advice about a Hayes Dominion brake problem? I started a thread in the brake section.

Thank you in advance!
E

Disc brake rub depending on crank position?

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to..."]Disc brake rub depending on crank position?


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

MX9799 said:


> Springs, I put a galfer 2mm thick rotor on my bike and it reduced the lever throw a pretty good amount. It was supposedly only .05mm thicker, but it shortened the lever throw a pretty good amount. I was actually surprised with how short the lever throw was after the switch.


How do you like the rotor?


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

jazzanova said:


> How do you like the rotor?


So far so good. I've only been able to get one ride in on it. It has rained at least every other day here since I got that one ride on it.

I went with a 223mm rotor. I like it so far. Out of the package it was more true than the Hayes and XT rotors I've tried. It does make a funny clicking noise, I think due to the shape of the rotor, with the Hayes pads. It sounds like a little, quiet machine gun going off when you're feathering the brake and not locking up the wheel (which I don't really do all that often with the front). The sound is slightly annoying, but I can live with it for the amount of power the bigger rotor provides with such minimal effort from my hand. She shortened lever throw was a bonus that I didn't really expect.

All in all the hayes dominion A4's with the bigger galfer rotor got me exactly what I was looking for on my ebike's front brake. TONS of braking power with minimal lever throw and required force.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

MX9799 said:


> So far so good. I've only been able to get one ride in on it. It has rained at least every other day here since I got that one ride on it.
> 
> I went with a 223mm rotor. I like it so far. Out of the package it was more true than the Hayes and XT rotors I've tried. It does make a funny clicking noise, I think due to the shape of the rotor, with the Hayes pads. *It sounds like a little, quiet machine gun going off when you're feathering the brake and not locking up the wheel *(which I don't really do all that often with the front). The sound is slightly annoying, but I can live with it for the amount of power the bigger rotor provides with such minimal effort from my hand. She shortened lever throw was a bonus that I didn't really expect.
> 
> All in all the hayes dominion A4's with the bigger galfer rotor got me exactly what I was looking for on my ebike's front brake. TONS of braking power with minimal lever throw and required force.


I had that noise years back when running Magura brakes with their Storm SL rotor. It's a heavily vented rotor, a ton of machined holes and not really a lot of meat in the braking surface. The Storm rotor didn't make the same noise.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Just got a set, front A4 and rear A2. The pads are huge compared to XT 8120. The A2 pads are as big as the XT8120 pads.


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## crj5 (Jun 4, 2019)

Has anyone experienced fluid leaking from the brake lever when pressurizing the system during a bleed? I just installed a new set of Dominion A4s on my bike last night, the rear bleed went as expected, but I had some fluid leaking from the front lever when pressurizing. It seemed to be leaking from the bottom of the lever assembly. I don't think it is leaking from the hose barb connection, I made sure to follow the install instructions closely and torqued the compression nut to spec. After the bleed, I nipped up the reservoir back plate bolts on the front lever, which seemed to be fairly loose from the factory. The rear lever reservoir back plate bolts also seemed a little loose, but fluid did not leak from that lever when bleeding, so I am not 100% convinced that the front lever was leaking from this location. After the bleed, both levers have solid feel, so it seems to be working, although I haven't ridden them yet. I'm a little hesitant to ride knowing an issue may exist. Any ideas? Maybe a seal somewhere in the lever I should replace?

Apologies if this has been addressed before, I did my best to search this thread.


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## trailhawk (Jul 29, 2020)

crj5 - I have found I had to tighten with a plier the hose/barb connection (by hand caused leaking on the front). I also had a bad seal that wasn't evident at bleed time but did cause long lever flow frequently on my rear. It was a bad seal on the master cylinder and Hayes warrantied and sent me an entire new rear. I love these brakes and don't mind the extra effort to bleed them. Try the mechanical tightening and let me know if that solved the problem.


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## crj5 (Jun 4, 2019)

Thanks for your quick reply, trailhawk. I'll try your method of using a tool to install the barb, although I'll need to source a new barb first. I also have an inquiry in with Hayes, looking forward to hearing their thoughts.


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## trailhawk (Jul 29, 2020)

crj5 said:


> Thanks for your quick reply, trailhawk. I'll try your method of using a tool to install the barb, although I'll need to source a new barb first. I also have an inquiry in with Hayes, looking forward to hearing their thoughts.


Oops I read and replied wrong. I found I had to use a plier to tighten the metal bleed connector in the bleed port so I didn't get fluid leaking when pressurizing the master as I cycled the fluid between the two syringes. So please ignore the barb needs a tool. Try that when you bleed next time. Fronts require less bleeding than rear on this brake set from my experience. I like both to have the same lever feel. Rear gets a little squishier a few months after bleeds but still acceptable.

But addtl tightening of the brake line connector into the lever may be needed if you see it leaking there. I couldn't find a crows wrench the right size to torque that nut to the specified amount and my first try was to loose even though it felt like I was jamming on that nut so I turned it another 1/2 turn.


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## crj5 (Jun 4, 2019)

Thanks for clarifying. Hayes got back to me quickly and said some leakage during the bleed is normal. I’m just going to run the brakes as they are and keep an eye out for any degraded performance.


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## trailhawk (Jul 29, 2020)

crj5 said:


> Thanks for clarifying. Hayes got back to me quickly and said some leakage during the bleed is normal. I'm just going to run the brakes as they are and keep an eye out for any degraded performance.


I think these brakes are as good as or better than any on the market but most MTBers don't realize that yet. Let me know your thoughts after a few rides. I've had mine now for over a year and smile every time I use them (in all conditions). At times I find them so powerful and I get ham fisted that the front throws me right OTBs if I grab to much front brake on slow transitions ?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

You're talking leaking from the bleed port while you were pressurizing? If that's the spot, yea... I get a bit of that too. Enjoy the brakes man, so far I think they're the best ones I've run.


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

Who's running metallic pads? I think they might have TOO much power but wanted to see if it's just an adjustment thing.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


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## crj5 (Jun 4, 2019)

Dysfuntion - it seemed like the leak was coming from somewhere on the bottom of the lever. It did not seem to be coming from the bleed port, although it could have been. It was just a few drops each time I applied pressure to the syringe, tough to tell where the source was.


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## SoCal-Rider (May 25, 2009)

gus6464 said:


> Who's running metallic pads? I think they might have TOO much power but wanted to see if it's just an adjustment thing.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


I've been running metallic for a few months. It did take a little bit of adjusting to on the front. You definitely don't want to grab a handful of front brake, especially when standing up and not bracing for the weight shift.

But the power is really nice to have on steep DH sections. My hands get less fatigued.


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## Headoc (Mar 24, 2015)

Little help. Been running brakes for a year. Absolutely love them. Used the metallic pads down to nothing. Switched pads to new ones and now they are rattling like crazy. Driving me nuts. Any suggestions? Anyone else have this problem?


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Rattling? The pads? Did you install the spring?


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## Headoc (Mar 24, 2015)

RustyIron said:


> Rattling? The pads? Did you install the spring?


Yeah, I did note that it wasn't in great shape. New spring fix it maybe?


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Yeah. The spring holds the pads against the caliper pistons and away from the rotor. They get jacked up. Most new pads come with a spring, but I always have a couple sets of old ones on hand, just in case of an emergency.


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## SoCal-Rider (May 25, 2009)

Headoc said:


> Little help. Been running brakes for a year. Absolutely love them. Used the metallic pads down to nothing. Switched pads to new ones and now they are rattling like crazy. Driving me nuts. Any suggestions? Anyone else have this problem?


New spring or spread the spring out bit to add more tension. I had to spread the spring to get rid of pad rattle on my last set of pads and it helped.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

The Dominions with Magura rotors are screechy as hell and incredibly annoying. It looks like I may have to spring for the Hayes rotors if they're available.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Curveball said:


> The Dominions with Magura rotors are screechy as hell and incredibly annoying. It looks like I may have to spring for the Hayes rotors if they're available.


I've had good luck with a galfer rotor with the metallic pads as well. Quiet as can be. I did notice one faint squeak the other day the the first time I used the brakes after riding through a creek. After that one time though, it went back to being quiet again. The galfer rotor is a tick thicker too, and to my surprise, made a noticeable difference, in a good way, on the lever travel.


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## Mebaru (Jun 5, 2017)

Curveball said:


> The Dominions with Magura rotors are screechy as hell and incredibly annoying. It looks like I may have to spring for the Hayes rotors if they're available.


I use Dominions with SwissStop Catalyst rotors, also I use Nukeproof sintered brake pads. Quiet (but only if not heavily wet) and excellent braking power.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I like to keep a good supply of brake pads in stock, and when I order bike parts would routinely hit my wishlist to add another set of Hayes brake pads to my bike orders, so I had a nice little stash. Went to replace my pads yesterday and realized I'd been stocking "A2" pads instead of "A4". D'oh ! Quickly went and ordered a bunch of A4 pads, grateful they're still in stock. 

So if anyone wants a good deal I have 4 packs of Dominion A2 pads I can't use !


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

MX9799 said:


> I've had good luck with a galfer rotor with the metallic pads as well. Quiet as can be. I did notice one faint squeak the other day the the first time I used the brakes after riding through a creek. After that one time though, it went back to being quiet again. The galfer rotor is a tick thicker too, and to my surprise, made a noticeable difference, in a good way, on the lever travel.


Cool. I would like a bit less lever travel and so the Galfers look like a great option.


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

Hello! Planning to change my levers to a short lever (i have short fingers and the brake levers always comes in contact with the bar, and the braked are perfectly bled i just have a short fingers lol) how easy or difficult to change the levers? I can't find any tutorials online. Do you guys have any link or videos on how to change it? Or should I just send it to my lbs? Thanks!


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Hayes About Us

I read this awhile back before I refitted to Shimano. My trusted bike mechanic, with tons of accreditations and experience was not a fan. Maybe just my situation, but I had many, many issues with Hayes Bicycle brakes. I refitted.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

EKram said:


> Hayes About Us
> 
> I read this awhile back before I refitted to Shimano. My trusted bike mechanic, with tons of accreditations and experience was not a fan. Maybe just my situation, but I had many, many issues with Hayes Bicycle brakes. I refitted.


Were you having many, many issues with the new Hayes Dominion brakes (which is what this thread is about)? Did your trusted bike mechanic say why he wasn't a fan?


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Curveball said:


> Cool. I would like a bit less lever travel and so the Galfers look like a great option.


I will say that if you go with Galfer rotors, you'll hear a faint noise when you're bedding them in or if you ride on pavement. It sounds like a very quiet machine gun firing. I think it has something to do with the shape of the wave rotors. I first heard the noise when I was bedding the rotors in the grass in my yard, and it only happens when you're on the brakes but not fully locking up the wheel. I still hear the noise from time to time if I'm riding on a surface that doesn't create much tire noise. However, maybe 99% of the time I'm on the brakes, you can't hear this rotor noise over the tire noise.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

I love that sound!

I think the shorter lever throw with thicker rotors only works if you set up with thinner rotor, then put the thicker in. Otherwise the brake will just compensate for it as if the pads were more worn. 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

MX9799 said:


> I will say that if you go with Galfer rotors, you'll hear a faint noise when you're bedding them in or if you ride on pavement. It sounds like a very quiet machine gun firing. I think it has something to do with the shape of the wave rotors. I first heard the noise when I was bedding the rotors in the grass in my yard, and it only happens when you're on the brakes but not fully locking up the wheel. I still hear the noise from time to time if I'm riding on a surface that doesn't create much tire noise. However, maybe 99% of the time I'm on the brakes, you can't hear this rotor noise over the tire noise.


I just read that they're coming out with thicker, 2.0 mm rotors. I may hold out for those.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

EKram said:


> Hayes About Us
> 
> I read this awhile back before I refitted to Shimano. My trusted bike mechanic, with tons of accreditations and experience was not a fan. Maybe just my situation, but I had many, many issues with Hayes Bicycle brakes. I refitted.


Somtimes, when you have repeated issues, it's the mechanic that needs replaced.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

soothsayer1991 said:


> Hello! Planning to change my levers to a short lever (i have short fingers and the brake levers always comes in contact with the bar, and the braked are perfectly bled i just have a short fingers lol) how easy or difficult to change the levers? I can't find any tutorials online. Do you guys have any link or videos on how to change it? Or should I just send it to my lbs? Thanks!


In theory all the brakes are adjusted at the factory for seal position. But in practice I have swapped levers with no issues. Undo the two lever bolts and the whole assembly swaps over. No need to bleed or anything else.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

@97799, @Dougal Thanks for casting aspersions on my bike mechanic. Yes I trust him and his opinions.✌ As they say, "happy trails".


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

Dougal said:


> In theory all the brakes are adjusted at the factory for seal position. But in practice I have swapped levers with no issues. Undo the two lever bolts and the whole assembly swaps over. No need to bleed or anything else.


Thank you for this! I appreciate it!


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Curveball said:


> I just read that they're coming out with thicker, 2.0 mm rotors. I may hold out for those.


They're already out. That press release was late I guess. I got mine back in January from Universal Cycles.









 Galfer Wave 6-Bolt Disc Brake Rotors


Galfer Wave 6-Bolt Disc Brake Rotors :: From $29.99 :: Galfer Disc Brake Rotors




www.universalcycles.com





It looks like they currently have the 2mm thick rotors in stock for 180mm, 203mm, and 223mm. I wound up going with the 2mm thick 223mm rotor. The dominion brake with that rotor works amazing.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

EKram said:


> @97799, @Dougal Thanks for casting aspersions on my bike mechanic. Yes I trust him and his opinions.✌ As they say, "happy trails".


No need to get worked up on my account. I'll ask again, did your mechanic say "why" he didn't like the brakes? I'd be interested to know.

I will say that, from a mechanic standpoint, the shimano brakes are easier to bleed. Maybe that's why he doesn't like Hayes brakes.

Yes, shimano makes good brakes. I once thought all I would ever need in a brake could be provided by Shimano XT's. Then I got an enduro ebike and started riding more downhill type stuff at a new self shuttle park that opened up nearby. The shimano XT's were screaming for mercy. No issues with the dominions.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

MX9799 said:


> No need to get worked up on my account. I'll ask again, did your mechanic say "why" he didn't like the brakes? I'd be interested to know.
> 
> I will say that, from a mechanic standpoint, the shimano brakes are easier to bleed. Maybe that's why he doesn't like Hayes brakes.


Standby. Busy times.


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## ear_ache (Apr 18, 2012)

Preston67 said:


> I like to keep a good supply of brake pads in stock, and when I order bike parts would routinely hit my wishlist to add another set of Hayes brake pads to my bike orders, so I had a nice little stash. Went to replace my pads yesterday and realized I'd been stocking "A2" pads instead of "A4". D'oh ! Quickly went and ordered a bunch of A4 pads, grateful they're still in stock.
> 
> So if anyone wants a good deal I have 4 packs of Dominion A2 pads I can't use !


I'll PM you in a bit. I'm a proud owner of some A2's

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

Hi there! Question about trimming the hose.

So i'm going to transfer my brakes to a new bike and the new bike has internal cabling, can I just remove the hose from the master cyclinder and put it back then bleed or should I cut a little bit of hose and install a new conpression bushing? Thank you!


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

My bike with internal cabling the fitting won't fit through some of the pass through holes so I have to cut the compression fitting off. 

If it fits, I would definitely keep the fitting on. However it should be noted (at least I strongly remember reading this but I could be wrong) Hayes instructions actually recommend crimping on a new connector anytime its removed from the lever. I've never seen that on other brakes. I think it would be fine based on my general experience with hydraulic crimp fittings, its most likely a liability CYA.

If I could get the fitting through your internal passages I personally wouldn't change it, but thought you should know that Hayes recommends changing it anytime its removed from the lever.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Preston67 said:


> My bike with internal cabling the fitting won't fit through some of the pass through holes so I have to cut the compression fitting off.
> 
> If it fits, I would definitely keep the fitting on. However it should be noted (at least I strongly remember reading this but I could be wrong) Hayes instructions actually recommend crimping on a new connector anytime its removed from the lever. I've never seen that on other brakes. I think it would be fine based on my general experience with hydraulic crimp fittings, its most likely a liability CYA.
> 
> If I could get the fitting through your internal passages I personally wouldn't change it, but thought you should know that Hayes recommends changing it anytime its removed from the lever.


It's not really a CYA it's simply a best practice. The fitting is 2 pieces for pretty much everything - a brass 'olive' and a steel barb. The olive gets deformed when you insert the barb into it, and it probably will never seal as well again. So it's a really good idea to replace the barb and olive on any hydraulic brake when you remove the hose from the lever.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

soothsayer1991 said:


> I just remove the hose from the master cyclinder and put it back then bleed or should I cut a little bit of hose and install a new conpression bushing?


You can take it apart, try to fit the hose through the frame, hope that it doesn't leak, and if it does, you're dead in the water until parts arrive. Or you can just buy a pack of 10 compression bushings, do it right, and live happily ever after.


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## dragoontwo (Dec 2, 2020)

Is there any way to fit Matchmaker X to the dominion clamps? I see Hayes has an older style adapter, but no adjustment on vertical.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Just upgraded to the Dominions on my Intense Tazer MX Expert Ebike….. DAMN!!!! These brakes are awesome! Best upgrade I could purchase.... The TRP(Tektro) weren't bad,but the Hayes outperform them in every way.


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## fallenmojo (May 25, 2019)

Hi guys. When I got the A4 brakes, I used them with sram centerline rotors. The travel of the lever ( until the bite point) felt a bit too long but I got used to it since the braking power was good. 2 weeks ago I bought a pair of hayes rotors, reset the brake pads, mounted the new rotors and the lever feel was fully changed. The travel till the bite point was much smaller. The problem is that after a few rides, the travel got bigger again like with the sram rotors.... I have the lever reach set to 6.5 Cm from the handlebar, and the bite point is at around 3 cm. So I am asking you guys, with A4 brakes, how does your bite point feels?


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## ear_ache (Apr 18, 2012)

fallenmojo said:


> Hi guys. When I got the A4 brakes, I used them with sram centerline rotors. The travel of the lever ( until the bite point) felt a bit too long but I got used to it since the braking power was good. 2 weeks ago I bought a pair of hayes rotors, reset the brake pads, mounted the new rotors and the lever feel was fully changed. The travel till the bite point was much smaller. The problem is that after a few rides, the travel got bigger again like with the sram rotors.... I have the lever reach set to 6.5 Cm from the handlebar, and the bite point is at around 3 cm. So I am asking you guys, with A4 brakes, how does your bite point feels?


You know, the same thing has happened to me. There was initially minimal lever throw after installation and bleeding, and now after several rides the lever throw has increased. I assumed it was an air/contamination issue that required a rebleed in the near future.


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## fallenmojo (May 25, 2019)

ear_ache said:


> You know, the same thing has happened to me. There was initially minimal lever throw after installation and bleeding, and now after several rides the lever throw has increased. I assumed it was an air/contamination issue that required a rebleed in the near future.


I don't think it's air, they perform good even when they get hot. I got this response from hayes, which make sense, it looks like the pistons don't advance with the pad wear:

"This sounds like a sticky piston which is long retraction due to the pistons not slipping past the square seals.

The remedy most of the time is to lubricate the pistons. Pump out the pistons on one side of the caliper using the opposite end of the bleed block.

Pump them out until they contact the tool so they have advanced past the square seal.

Then push them back in and repeat on the other side of the caliper. I assume you know this method but if you need more information let me know. "


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## fallenmojo (May 25, 2019)

fallenmojo said:


> I don't think it's air, they perform good even when they get hot. I got this response from hayes, which make sense, it looks like the pistons don't advance with the pad wear:
> 
> "This sounds like a sticky piston which is long retraction due to the pistons not slipping past the square seals.
> 
> ...


I did this, now the lever throw is minimal, had to adjust down the reach because the bite point was to high for me. Now let's see how much it will stay like this.


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## cwphillips (Aug 21, 2017)

I read through parts of the 36 pages and there may be more discussion related to noisy brakes but not certain I saw too many specific solutions. I have a set of A4 Front A2 Rear. They were installed along with my new build at the LBS. We stuck with SRAM rotors and the ceramic pads were originally installed. I went through the burn-in process and the brakes were pretty 'gritty' sounding. I road the bike for 50-60 miles thinking it may go away, but it didnt. I then swapped out the pads for the metal pads and that didn't help either. I then bought Hayes rotors to replace the SRAM rotors, but kept the metal pads in, and still noisy as hell. The power and modulation are excellent, but the brakes sound like I'm riding on beach with gritty sand! I have cleaned, lightly sanded, etc, with no effect. I have cleaned with alcohol with no effect. Are the Hayes brakes just that loud or am I doing something wrong? Years of riding Shimano brakes with no similar issues and I'm pretty decent in the garage! 

Thanks guys, and gals!!!!


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

cwphillips said:


> I then bought Hayes rotors to replace the SRAM rotors, but kept the metal pads in, and still noisy as hell. The power and modulation are excellent, but the brakes sound like I'm riding on beach with gritty sand!


I found the sintered metallic pads to be a bit noisier than I prefer. Kind of like you described, they gave me a rubbing sound under most braking conditions. It wasn't terrible unless the brakes were super hot or wet. The semis are much quieter, but I use Kool-Stop pads. They're quiet, less expensive, and I get a LOT of miles on them. I don't think the rotors will make a substantial difference for the rubbing sound. Howling (harmonic vibration) is a whole other can of worms, though. I've run both Shimano cheapie and Shimano IceTech rotors, and they're fine. To summarize, get some organics (Hayes semi or Kool Stop), center the calipers perfectly, and run 'em hard to get them bedded in and clean. All brakes can sound wonky until their worn in. A little shreddy downhill should suffice.


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

cwphillips said:


> I read through parts of the 36 pages and there may be more discussion related to noisy brakes but not certain I saw too many specific solutions. I have a set of A4 Front A2 Rear. They were installed along with my new build at the LBS. We stuck with SRAM rotors and the ceramic pads were originally installed. I went through the burn-in process and the brakes were pretty 'gritty' sounding. I road the bike for 50-60 miles thinking it may go away, but it didnt. I then swapped out the pads for the metal pads and that didn't help either. I then bought Hayes rotors to replace the SRAM rotors, but kept the metal pads in, and still noisy as hell. The power and modulation are excellent, but the brakes sound like I'm riding on beach with gritty sand! I have cleaned, lightly sanded, etc, with no effect. I have cleaned with alcohol with no effect. Are the Hayes brakes just that loud or am I doing something wrong? Years of riding Shimano brakes with no similar issues and I'm pretty decent in the garage!
> 
> Thanks guys, and gals!!!!


That's super weird. The only time I get that weird gritty noise is when the pads are just very slightly rubbing against the rotors. And even then, the noise goes away completely when I'm actually using the brakes. Is it only making noise when you're braking or not braking? Both?

The D series rotors are a good bit thicker than SRAM's. And are the recommended rotors for the A4. Well, I guess any 2mm rotors would work well. So when you installed the Hayes rotors, you should have reset the pistons completely, then re-centered the caliper on the new D series rotors.

Are you using the original Hayes brake pads or aftermarket? The reason I ask is that the brakeset came with sintered metallic with the copper color backplate, and semi-metallic with the black backplate. You mention ceramic, but I'm not sure if I'm being pedantic here, or you are actually using aftermarket ceramic pads like the MTX.

The only other reason I can think of why it would make a gritty noise is that the LBS over-over-filled the brake system when you had the thinner SRAM rotors. And then when you installed the thicker Hayes rotors, the extra fluid is just preventing the pistons from retracting. Which will cause an audible rub when the brakes aren't in use. But you also said the noise was happening with the SRAM rotors.

Perhaps try doing a full bleed as well.


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## fallenmojo (May 25, 2019)

fallenmojo said:


> I did this, now the lever throw is minimal, had to adjust down the reach because the bite point was to high for me. Now let's see how much it will stay like this.


3 rides and the lever throw increased again.... guess I have to get used to a longer lever travel.


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

fallenmojo said:


> 3 rides and the lever throw increased again.... guess I have to get used to a longer lever travel.


Sounds like it needs a bleed TBH. I've had my A4s over a year and a half now and they're the most consistent brakes I've ever used. As the pad wears, the throw gets longer, but that is a very slow, gradual process over weeks and months. Not 3 rides. I mean, unless you're going through a set of brake pads every week, the sudden increase in lever throw is abnormal.


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## ear_ache (Apr 18, 2012)

almazing said:


> Sounds like it needs a bleed TBH. I've had my A4s over a year and a half now and they're the most consistent brakes I've ever used. As the pad wears, the throw gets longer, but that is a very slow, gradual process over weeks and months. Not 3 rides. I mean, unless you're going through a set of brake pads every week, the sudden increase in lever throw is abnormal.


I have less that 200 miles on my A2's and the lever throw got gradually longer over that time. I assumed it needed a rebleed but tried a pad replacement instead after reading this thread. The throw is back to new.

Do these pads wear that quickly? They are the copper/metallic pads and I weigh 190 lbs.

Thanks 
E


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

How thick are they now?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ear_ache said:


> I have less that 200 miles on my A2's and the lever throw got gradually longer over that time. I assumed it needed a rebleed but tried a pad replacement instead after reading this thread. The throw is back to new.
> 
> Do these pads wear that quickly? They are the copper/metallic pads and I weigh 190 lbs.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you are trying to get to brakes to use less than their normal lever throw.


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## ear_ache (Apr 18, 2012)

dysfunction said:


> How thick are they now?


The old ones are 3.65
The new ones are 3.95

I couldn't find a recommended replacement thickness.

Thanks 
E


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## ear_ache (Apr 18, 2012)

Dougal said:


> It sounds like you are trying to get to brakes to use less than their normal lever throw.


Hmmm. The levers come close to contacting the bars with old pads.

What would you recommend? A rebleed?

Thanks!
E


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ear_ache said:


> Hmmm. The levers come close to contacting the bars with old pads.
> 
> What would you recommend? A rebleed?
> 
> ...


If the levers hit the bars then you either have air in the system or insufficient brake fluid. Push the pistons all the way back with no pads (use the red bleed block) and bleed it using vacuum and pressure from the syringe until the system is full but relaxed.

You can wear the pads right up until the silver spring clips hit the rotor. Then they get noisey.


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## crj5 (Jun 4, 2019)

I've been loving the A4s on my Hightower so I decided to try the A2s on my Spur when I found a good deal on them. I was a little worried about losing power going to two-piston brakes, but am very impressed with the power, and the pistons are huge. I may have slightly overfilled the system on the bleed. It was tough to get the bleed block to span the whole pistons, so each piston was slightly protruding at an angle, with one side sticking out more than the other side of the piston after the bleed. The contact point is now a bit further out than I like; I like it being really close to the bar on my bigger bike to mitigate hand fatigue on the extended steeps. I tried the bite point adjustment, but it didn't seem to do much, and I didn't want to take the bolt all the way out.

The pads on the A2s rattle a little, does anyone know a good fix for this? I bent the H springs out a little and added a tiny bit of mastic tape between the pads and H springs by the king pin where most of the rattle seemed to be coming from (shown in the picture). It helped a little but it still rattling, any ideas?


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## ear_ache (Apr 18, 2012)

Dougal said:


> If the levers hit the bars then you either have air in the system or insufficient brake fluid. Push the pistons all the way back with no pads (use the red bleed block) and bleed it using vacuum and pressure from the syringe until the system is full but relaxed.
> 
> You can wear the pads right up until the silver spring clips hit the rotor. Then they get noisey.


Thanks Dougal

Here is my thought process regarding Hydraulic brakes. Please correct me if I am wrong.

When pads wear, either;
1. the distance the pistons travel needs to increase (lever throw), or
2. the pistons should not fully retract. The pistons need to advance as the pad wears.

For #2 to be effective, hydraulic fluid needs to be added to the system.

So you have two ways to correct the problem. One is expensive (frequently replacing pads) and the other time consuming (bleeding with pistons not fully retracted).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ear_ache said:


> Thanks Dougal
> 
> Here is my thought process regarding Hydraulic brakes. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> ...


Pad retraction amount is fixed, it's set by the roll-back of the square seals used in the calipers and assisted by the master cylinder piston pulling back. As pads wear the pistons push through further to compensate but always get the same pull back.
This is how they self-adjust for pad wear.

The reservoir has a flexible cap inside which compensates for change in volume as pads wear and fluid heats/cools.

The engineers got all this worked out decades ago.


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## ear_ache (Apr 18, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Pad retraction amount is fixed, it's set by the roll-back of the square seals used in the calipers and assisted by the master cylinder piston pulling back. As pads wear the pistons push through further to compensate but always get the same pull back.
> This is how they self-adjust for pad wear.
> 
> The reservoir has a flexible cap inside which compensates for change in volume as pads wear and fluid heats/cools.
> ...


Thanks!


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

Hello there! I'm planning to get a set of short lever for my dominion a4's. Are they easy to install? Do you guys have any instructions or video instructions? I've checked google but i can't find anything. Thank you!


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

I was able to come across as set of Dominion T2s and got them at a slight discount. They'll be going on my lightweight Spur build.

If I didn't find these, I would have just gone with the A4s since the weight difference between the regular A2s and A4s are in the single digits of grams. Practically negligible. TBH, I wish Hayes would make the T2 the standard 2 piston, so there's actual reason for people to buy their 2 piston brakes. Or at least make the A2s even lighter than the A4s, without having to use carbon and titanium to keep costs down.

Like, why buy 2 piston brakes when the 4 piston versions weigh just 8 grams more? With the T2, you'd save 50 grams per brake compared to the regular A2 and 60 grams compared to the A4. Weight savings is a great reason for people to opt for the 2 piston versions. Personally, I don't think there's any reason to buy the regular A2 over the A4 because their weights are essentially identical.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

almazing said:


> I was able to come across as set of Dominion T2s and got them at a slight discount. They'll be going on my lightweight Spur build.
> 
> If I didn't find these, I would have just gone with the A4s since the weight difference between the regular A2s and A4s are in the single digits of grams. Practically negligible. TBH, I wish Hayes would make the T2 the standard 2 piston, so there's actual reason for people to buy their 2 piston brakes. Or at least make the A2s even lighter than the A4s, without having to use carbon and titanium to keep costs down.
> 
> Like, why buy 2 piston brakes when the 4 piston versions weigh just 8 grams more? With the T2, you'd save 50 grams per brake compared to the regular A2 and 60 grams compared to the A4. Weight savings is a great reason for people to opt for the 2 piston versions. Personally, I don't think there's any reason to buy the regular A2 over the A4 because their weights are essentially identical.


How did you find T2s??!!


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

LCW said:


> How did you find T2s??!!


Well, I was looking for A4s with the regular levers. I guess scour the internet long enough and you're bound to find leftovers, even if only 500 sets were claimed to be made.


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

almazing said:


> Well, I was looking for A4s with the regular levers. I guess scour the internet long enough and you're bound to find leftovers, even if only 500 sets were claimed to be made.


Scratch that. Retailer thought they could order these brakes for me. Their website status said in stock but their warehouse said backordered. For parts that were limited to 500 pairs. Doubt they can get them. Guess I'll be going A4s now, which is nice because they're about $100 cheaper and have more stopping power. I'll take the .25 lbs weight penalty.


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## cwphillips (Aug 21, 2017)

almazing said:


> That's super weird. The only time I get that weird gritty noise is when the pads are just very slightly rubbing against the rotors. And even then, the noise goes away completely when I'm actually using the brakes. Is it only making noise when you're braking or not braking? Both?
> 
> The D series rotors are a good bit thicker than SRAM's. And are the recommended rotors for the A4. Well, I guess any 2mm rotors would work well. So when you installed the Hayes rotors, you should have reset the pistons completely, then re-centered the caliper on the new D series rotors.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the slow response! I am using Hayes pads. I took everything apart, rebleed, and now all is good!


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Has someone had trouble bleeding these?
I love these brakes but since i has to swap master cylinder for new one I can't get a good bleed on my front brake. Lever sits quite far from the bar to have similar bite point as rear and still would pull closer occasionally, basically a shimano syndrome.
Bled following Hayes guide, did caliper flush too.

I'd be thankful for any tricks.
Roman 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

romulin said:


> Has someone had trouble bleeding these?
> I love these brakes but since i has to swap master cylinder for new one I can't get a good bleed on my front brake. Lever sits quite far from the bar to have similar bite point as rear and still would pull closer occasionally, basically a shimano syndrome.
> Bled following Hayes guide, did caliper flush too.
> 
> ...


I just followed the Hayes video. I pull a vaccum on my syringes before the bleed too. Then when bleeding, I make sure that the nozzles of the syringes are pointed toward the ground, so the air bubbles in the syringe rise to the top. When I'm flushing out old liquid, I'll fill the caliper syringe up and bleed to the lever. I would then discard the old fluid that's accumulated in the lever syringe and refill both syringes with fluid. Obviously, you'll wanna cap the bleed ports. Then pull a vaccum in the syringes and I'll re-do the bleed again, but since the old fluid has been flushed out, I can alternate forcing the liquid and trapped air bubbles between the caliper and lever. Make sure neither syringe goes empty when doing this. Otherwise, you'll just introduce bubbles in the system again. Do this until the bubbles are no longer present. It's important to get rid of the old fluid so it doesn't contaminate the fresh fluid.


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

I got my new set of A4s yesterday and installed them on my Spur. Running 180/180 with the D-Series rotors. Looks like Hayes has made some running changes with this batch. The barb and olive are now 2 pieces. You stick the barb in and the olive kinda just sits loosely on the tip until you set the seal with the crush nut. This is probably to address the reports of brake hoses coming loose or coming off with the one piece barb and olive design. Definitely user and mechanic error when installing. The reservoir cover is now composite and has a larger bulge and seemingly more volume than what was on there previously. The reservoir cover is probably from the T2 and it holds more fluid due to the increased volume. The old cover was painted metal and this new one is unpainted plastic. The hose looks ribbed now so it's probably better reinforced. It's also slightly thicker stiffer than the older hose. The old one piece will fit this new style hose as well.

Glad that Hayes is making running changes to improve already awesome brakes! The feel and power are the same as my 'older' set, and I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I have a second set on the way, it'll be cool to see the changes.


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## Roto599 (Jan 3, 2010)

almazing said:


> Scratch that. Retailer thought they could order these brakes for me. Their website status said in stock but their warehouse said backordered. For parts that were limited to 500 pairs. Doubt they can get them. Guess I'll be going A4s now, which is nice because they're about $100 cheaper and have more stopping power. I'll take the .25 lbs weight penalty.


T2s seem to be easy to find in Europe if someone is after them. Bike24 for example.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 155K98 (Jul 10, 2020)

Have many or any of you replaced the brake rotors at the same time to Hayes? If Hayes then the choice would be the D-series I guess?


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

155K98 said:


> Have many or any of you replaced the brake rotors at the same time to Hayes? If Hayes then the choice would be the D-series I guess?


Yes I replaced 2 sets of rotors with D-series. D-series rotors are 2mm and the A4s and A2s work best with 2mm rotors. I suppose you can use any 2mm rotors as well.


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## schmung (Apr 26, 2019)

What the general consensus with rotor thickness? Unable to get any 2mm thick magura or galfer ones, but there seem to be some 2.3 about (TRP etc) marketed at ebikes. Will these clear the A4 caliper ok? I've got a box full of shimano rotors in various condition that I could use, but I assume that would result in more lever pull/less cooling? The D series have been ok and appear to be back in stock but I've managed to warp the back one and want something 2 piece if possible.


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## almazing (Jul 26, 2017)

schmung said:


> What the general consensus with rotor thickness? Unable to get any 2mm thick magura or galfer ones, but there seem to be some 2.3 about (TRP etc) marketed at ebikes. Will these clear the A4 caliper ok? I've got a box full of shimano rotors in various condition that I could use, but I assume that would result in more lever pull/less cooling? The D series have been ok and appear to be back in stock but I've managed to warp the back one and want something 2 piece if possible.


Clearance with 2mm rotors and new pads with the A4s are pretty tight. 2.3s will be even tighter, assuming it fits at all.

I imagine that you would have a longer lever pull by running thinner rotors. I would also think that you'd run in to piston lubrication issues and stuck and slow to retract pistons because the pistons stick further out at resting position with thinner rotors. Which means, you'd have to reset the caliper pistons periodically to properly lubricate.

Personally, I would choose to use 2mm rotors on brakes that normally use thinner rotors.


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## Seniorbrucio (Dec 28, 2020)

These friggin' brakes.

Finally got to run them somewhere decent (Finale Ligure) and wow are they great.

Just a ton of one finger power.

Night and day from my Hopes that I have on my second bike.


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

almazing said:


> Clearance with 2mm rotors and new pads with the A4s are pretty tight. 2.3s will be even tighter, assuming it fits at all.
> 
> I imagine that you would have a longer lever pull by running thinner rotors. I would also think that you'd run in to piston lubrication issues and stuck and slow to retract pistons because the pistons stick further out at resting position with thinner rotors. Which means, you'd have to reset the caliper pistons periodically to properly lubricate.
> 
> Personally, I would choose to use 2mm rotors on brakes that normally use thinner rotors.


Why is 2mm rotor different than 2.3mm with both pads worn 0.15mm?

Thanks
Oren

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

OrenPerets said:


> Why is 2mm rotor different than 2.3mm with both pads worn 0.15mm?


Pistons self-adjust through he extension and retraction of the seals. 
Some of what you read on the interwebs is "fake news," which goes 
unchallenged, because frankly, it's just not worth the argument.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Can i do a caliper overhaul, clean everything and put it back together without the service kit (pistons,, seals) or is it recommended to have it?
Brakes have about 2 years of riding behind. 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

romulin said:


> Can i do a caliper overhaul, clean everything and put it back together without the service kit (pistons,, seals) or is it recommended to have it?
> Brakes have about 2 years of riding behind.
> 
> Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


You could, but if you accidentally tear a seal then you are behind the 8-ball. I would at least have the rebuild kit available.


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## 155K98 (Jul 10, 2020)

I can confirm that the Magura QM44 fits perfectly with the Dominion A4 brakes. The brake feeling is awesome, just as good as in good motorcycle brakes.

The picture is taken just after installation and I did run couple of runs with modified Tektro HD-M745 adapters (second picture).


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

006_007 said:


> You could, but if you accidentally tear a seal then you are behind the 8-ball. I would at least have the rebuild kit available.


That makes sense. Thanks

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Antimatter (Jan 3, 2018)

schmung said:


> What the general consensus with rotor thickness? Unable to get any 2mm thick magura or galfer ones, but there seem to be some 2.3 about (TRP etc) marketed at ebikes. Will these clear the A4 caliper ok? I've got a box full of shimano rotors in various condition that I could use, but I assume that would result in more lever pull/less cooling? The D series have been ok and appear to be back in stock but I've managed to warp the back one and want something 2 piece if possible.


Galfer has them in stock depending on size for 2mm when I checked 2 weeks ago. I don't know about any consensus but I would consider going with a larger rotor first before worrying about thickness. The A4 will work with 1.8mm rotors. Depending on what brakes you have, you can compensate a little with contact point and/or reach adjustments if necessary.

Your rotor is a heatsink, a larger heatsink has advantages over one that's smaller. I'm of the opinion that many modern bikes come under-rotored esp with enduro-mtb's. 200/200 seems big to those not having tried them. For example, a180 to 200mm rotor change is noticeable. You'll notice you have to pull on the levers a little less to get the same power as the smaller rotor, and your pads/rotor will be under less stress with the larger rotor.

From our testing, the front rotors experience a lot of spike temperatures if you saw it plotted on a graph. The rear rotors get more braking "time" than the fronts. One of the key differences between an actual pro-rider vs the vast majority of others, the pro's are on the brakes (in terms of time where the pads are touching the rotor) less than everyone else. However, when the pro's are on the brakes, they are braking much harder than most of us. An experienced and skilled (but not a pro) rider has similar braking habits where they're on the brakes less but their braking is stronger than a novice level rider who tends to be on the brakes more with less intensity.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Antimatter said:


> Galfer has them in stock depending on size for 2mm when I checked 2 weeks ago. I don't know about any consensus but I would consider going with a larger rotor first before worrying about thickness. The A4 will work with 1.8mm rotors. Depending on what brakes you have, you can compensate a little with contact point and/or reach adjustments if necessary.
> 
> Your rotor is a heatsink, a larger heatsink has advantages over one that's smaller. I'm of the opinion that many modern bikes come under-rotored esp with enduro-mtb's. 200/200 seems big to those not having tried them. For example, a180 to 200mm rotor change is noticeable. You'll notice you have to pull on the levers a little less to get the same power as the smaller rotor, and your pads/rotor will be under less stress with the larger rotor.
> 
> From our testing, the front rotors experience a lot of spike temperatures if you saw it plotted on a graph. The rear rotors get more braking "time" than the fronts. One of the key differences between an actual pro-rider vs the vast majority of others, the pro's are on the brakes (in terms of time where the pads are touching the rotor) less than everyone else. However, when the pro's are on the brakes, they are braking much harder than most of us. An experienced and skilled (but not a pro) rider has similar braking habits where they're on the brakes less but their braking is stronger than a novice level rider who tends to be on the brakes more with less intensity.


Brakes self adjust to rotor/pad thickness. But going thicker will be hard to get to run drag free until the pads wear. Are you heat fading 203mm rotors?



romulin said:


> Can i do a caliper overhaul, clean everything and put it back together without the service kit (pistons,, seals) or is it recommended to have it?
> Brakes have about 2 years of riding behind.
> 
> Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


Unless you're extremely rough you'll be fine. I've never damaged a brake piston seal. Pistons need popped out with pressure, don't try to pull them out.


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## Antimatter (Jan 3, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Brakes self adjust to rotor/pad thickness. But going thicker will be hard to get to run drag free until the pads wear. Are you heat fading 203mm rotors?


The short answer is, it depends. For most trail riding, no. Coming down on 4-5km DH runs, yes. I'm much taller than most riders and I'm almost at 290 pounds but some of the guys are heavier than that (more if they're on eMTBs) which adds 30+ pounds on top of their riding gear.

I'm of the opinion that you're going to see a lot more rotors in the front that are 220/223 with the boom in eMTB sales.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Brakes self adjust to rotor/pad thickness. But going thicker will be hard to get to run drag free until the pads wear. Are you heat fading 203mm rotors?
> 
> Unless you're extremely rough you'll be fine. I've never damaged a brake piston seal. Pistons need popped out with pressure, don't try to pull them out.


Thank you for advice. I would probably have tried to hack my way around it by pumping the pistons out without pads until they pop out eventually pulling the rest out..

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Forbiddenforlife (Oct 3, 2020)

has anyone tried the Shimano rotors with the dominion A4's. I matched the pads up the the rotors and they seamed like they would work but I'm curios if anyone has actually tried it.


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## Antimatter (Jan 3, 2018)

If you're referring to the Ice tech rotors, they are 1.8mm thick and should work, but I'm afraid they're medium duty rotors compared to what's out there. Hayes D Series are 1.95mm thick and acoustically tuned to cancel out resonance. You could probably get away with 1.8mm in the rear but I strongly suggest looking for 2mm rotors for the front.


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## j.les (Jun 8, 2008)

I used a pair of old Ice tech rotors when I first got my Dominions. It worked but there was a lot of lever travel before the pads engaged. Not long after I picked up a set of 2.0mm Magura storm rotors. What a difference! I recommend anyone buying Hayes pick up their rotors or something else 2mm thick.


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## Forbiddenforlife (Oct 3, 2020)

Alright, thanks for the feed back. I am currently running Galfer Wave Rotors 223f/203r, they’re 1.8 and I haven’t had any problems.

I am also using Goodrich beaded steel hoses which make the brake feel amazing.They increase the bite point accuracy over the stock tubing and also give an extremely firm bite with barely any flex.
Would 100% recommend!.


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## adurant (May 31, 2019)

Dougal said:


> Brakes self adjust to rotor/pad thickness. But going thicker will be hard to get to run drag free until the pads wear. Are you heat fading 203mm rotors?


So on one of my favorite trails that drops 2,000ft in 1.5mi (600meters in 2.4km) I've had some fade and discoloration running hayes d-series 203mm rotors front and rear with hayes metallic pads. I seem to primarily cook the front rotor as I'm almost constantly braking hard (like tire traction limit hard) with both brakes (its one of those trails with steep chutes into off camber 90deg turns so you can't let off and build speed). So I'm thinking of upping to 223/220 front at least and rear if I have the frame clearance.
From what I can find I have four options:
Magura Mdr-P rotor 220mm 2.0mm
Galfer rotor 223mm 2.0mm
TRP R1 rotor 223/220mm 2.3mm
Hope 220mm 2.3mm (although can't find these available anywhere)

I'm kind of tempted to go the trp route for the extra thickness/heat capacity. Assuming there's enough clearance between the pads is there any reason not to go with the thicker rotor? Any other reasons to pick one of the above rotors/brands over another?


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## Antimatter (Jan 3, 2018)

Kind of wish Hayes would come out with a Peacemaker for the left (dropper post) side.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

adurant said:


> So on one of my favorite trails that drops 2,000ft in 1.5mi (600meters in 2.4km) I've had some fade and discoloration running hayes d-series 203mm rotors front and rear with hayes metallic pads. I seem to primarily cook the front rotor as I'm almost constantly braking hard (like tire traction limit hard) with both brakes (its one of those trails with steep chutes into off camber 90deg turns so you can't let off and build speed). So I'm thinking of upping to 223/220 front at least and rear if I have the frame clearance.
> From what I can find I have four options:
> Magura Mdr-P rotor 220mm 2.0mm
> Galfer rotor 223mm 2.0mm
> ...


The 2.3mm thick rotors will likely not fit well unless you know of a way to get the pads farther apart. I've tried Galfer 2.0mm thick rotors with my A4's and it was seriously tight. So tight that even the slightest amount of rotor warping caused pad rub. I'd suggest going with the galfer or magura 2.0mm thick rotors. Don't run 2.3mm thick rotors unless you're using the TRP brake calipers, which were made for 2.3mm thick rotors.


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## adurant (May 31, 2019)

MX9799 said:


> The 2.3mm thick rotors will likely not fit well unless you know of a way to get the pads farther apart. I've tried Galfer 2.0mm thick rotors with my A4's and it was seriously tight. So tight that even the slightest amount of rotor warping caused pad rub. I'd suggest going with the galfer or magura 2.0mm thick rotors. Don't run 2.3mm thick rotors unless you're using the TRP brake calipers, which were made for 2.3mm thick rotors.


Yea reset the pistons and measured and there is less space in there than I remembered, 2.3 would not fit.


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## monkies (Jun 10, 2007)

Anyone ever try to mix/match the Dominion lever with another brand. I honestly loved this lever...best feeling lever I've ever used. I had to part with the brakes for a sale, but still miss that lever. The thing(s) I didn't miss were not being able to find Hayes pads, parts like compression fittings/hoses were impossible to find, the little parts like a magura adapter for the caliper, etc. If I could put this lever on my SRAM Code kit I think I'd be in heaven.


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## Seniorbrucio (Dec 28, 2020)

Seniorbrucio said:


> These friggin' brakes.
> 
> Finally got to run them somewhere decent (Finale Ligure) and wow are they great.
> 
> ...


Too add to this. I have now run them at Finale again and Garda and they have been flawless.

No fade on long descents like Altissimo-Coast trail (2000m in 10 km), Tramalzo and Val del Diaol (Skull which is 650m in 4km)

Zero dramas.

Makes me realise how important a good set of brakes are in terms of confidence.


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## habaden (Sep 16, 2019)

Does anyone have a lead for a Hayes K2 Hydraulic hose kit? I bought a set of brakes and the rear cable length is too short. From what I can see the hose kits are sold out everywhere and have been for some time. I've read that the Jagwire kits can affect how the brakes feel so I'd like to stick to OEM. Has anyone tried the Hayes hose kits from their older model brakes?


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## michael007 (Sep 10, 2021)

habaden said:


> Does anyone have a lead for a Hayes K2 Hydraulic hose kit? I bought a set of brakes and the rear cable length is too short. From what I can see the hose kits are sold out everywhere and have been for some time. I've read that the Jagwire kits can affect how the brakes feel so I'd like to stick to OEM. Has anyone tried the Hayes hose kits from their older model brakes?


In stock @ bike24






Hayes Hydraulic Brake Hose K2 for Dominion A2/A4 Disc Brake - 2.0m - black


Hayes hydraulic brake hose K2 for Dominion A2/A4 disc brake - 2,0m ▶ Model: black




www.bike24.com


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## Gnougat (Aug 17, 2021)

Not sure how new this is, but looks like Hayes now offers the A4s in stealth black with grey levers:

Hayes Disc Brake | Dominion A4 | Brake Kit - Hayes Bicycle


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## PatRidesBikes (Aug 19, 2019)

I'm going to pretend that I didn't drop $650 on a complete set of brakes, rotors, mounts, and bleed kit just weeks before the brakes came out in a color I wanted.

Atleast the pewter color is growing on me...


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## adurant (May 31, 2019)

So finally got around to putting the magura mdrp 2.0mm 220mm rotor on the front. Will say the 2.0mm is tiiiight with new pads and you will have rubbing the first few rides (not enough to slow wheel much but will be loud), but after that if you reset pistons and re-center you will have minimal rubbing. Also the magura 180-220 adapter does not quite clear the hayes caliper so I had to grind a couple mm off the adapter in one spot. (first pic is not ground, second pic is ground)

Apart from the initial setup issues, performance has been as expected, noticeable increase in power but still very controllable. Definitely seems to have helped the overheating issue but will need a few more steep runs to really tell. Will say it seems harder to true the rotor so its perfect, I don't mind a very slight wiggle/rub but if you do you may want to stick with the 200.


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

Posted last year about thinking about the Dominions for street trials usage, and finally took the plunge and got them! However, I'm very disappointed in their finishing quality, and Hayes' quality control.

First of all, the clamping side of one of the lever bodies was not round, wouldn't fit my handlebar, and paint started to flake everywhere when tigthtening them. Not good, but figured I didn't want to send them back for something like this, so proceeded to sand them, which made them fit much better.

Unfortunately, turns out that wasn't all. A lot of the screws come way overtightened and/or with too much loctite. Couldn't get one pad pin out without the use of my heat gun (would have stripped the head otherwise). Biggest issue though is for some reason Hayes use a few tiny button head 2mm allen screws, for the bite point adjust.

Turns out one of the bite point adjuster screw heads had already been semi stripped. As the bit point was slightly uneven on the levers, I wanted to back it out a bit, and couldn't. Allen key rotates in the head, but screw doesn't turn. Other lever bite point screw turns fine. Wondering how to get this one out.

I'm a bit quite pissed off considering the money I spent on them. I'm a bit torn between putting some effort in and hopefully getting the shop to take them back for a refund, or go ahead and try to get them fixed under warranty and giving them a second chance (the lever action does feel great).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boozzz said:


> Posted last year about thinking about the Dominions for street trials usage, and finally took the plunge and got them! However, I'm very disappointed in their finishing quality, and Hayes' quality control.
> 
> First of all, the clamping side of one of the lever bodies was not round, wouldn't fit my handlebar, and paint started to flake everywhere when tigthtening them. Not good, but figured I didn't want to send them back for something like this, so proceeded to sand them, which made them fit much better.
> 
> ...


These levers are cast and all the same. For every other lever to be round but yours not is bizarre. Got pics?

Those screws aren't for bite-point adjust. They are factory set to put the MC seal right at the transfer port. You might need a better set of hex keys if you're rounding out screws with them.

Bite-point being uneven on newly installed brakes is because the caliper seals haven't settled. Riding the bike or stroking the pistons fixes that. Screwing with lever adjustments doesn't.


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

Dougal said:


> These levers are cast and all the same. For every other lever to be round but yours not is bizarre. Got pics?
> 
> Those screws aren't for bite-point adjust. They are factory set to put the MC seal right at the transfer port. You might need a better set of hex keys if you're rounding out screws with them.
> 
> Bite-point being uneven on newly installed brakes is because the caliper seals haven't settled. Riding the bike or stroking the pistons fixes that. Screwing with lever adjustments doesn't.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be taking this a bit personally? I've got pics, yes. See below, it's the bottom part of the clamp, slightly squared off.

I'm well aware what the screws should do and what the caliper seals do. And the screws might help a bit if after repeated brake application, stroke remains uneven between the two brakes. Also, my hex keys are fine, and I can turn the other lever's screw no problem.

Honestly, considering what these brakes cost, and comparing the finishing quality to say Hope, which cost the same, they just look poor.


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

*hello guys. Just a question, when the lever starts to feel a little spongy, do you guys bleed using the port on lever and caliper or just do the 2 bleed ports on the caliper? 

also, can I use any dot 5.1 fluid that can be bought thru automotive stores or should I stick with hayes dot 5.1? 

Thank you!*


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

soothsayer1991 said:


> *hello guys. Just a question, when the lever starts to feel a little spongy, do you guys bleed using the port on lever and caliper or just do the 2 bleed ports on the caliper?
> 
> also, can I use any dot 5.1 fluid that can be bought thru automotive stores or should I stick with hayes dot 5.1?
> 
> Thank you!*


Any decent quality dot 5.1 fluid can be used.

You must have air in there so if I were you I would just do a complete bleed and get it done right then you shouldn't need to worry about it for some time.


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

springs said:


> Any decent quality dot 5.1 fluid can be used.
> 
> You must have air in there so if I were you I would just do a complete bleed and get it done right then you shouldn't need to worry about it for some time.



Cool! Thanks for the advice! Have a good one!


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

Boozzz said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be taking this a bit personally? I've got pics, yes. See below, it's the bottom part of the clamp, slightly squared off.
> 
> I'm well aware what the screws should do and what the caliper seals do. And the screws might help a bit if after repeated brake application, stroke remains uneven between the two brakes. Also, my hex keys are fine, and I can turn the other lever's screw no problem.
> 
> Honestly, considering what these brakes cost, and comparing the finishing quality to say Hope, which cost the same, they just look poor.


Gotta hand it to Hayes, they're sending me a new lever!


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## Roto599 (Jan 3, 2010)

Hi, having some issues with my Dominion A4 front brake. I suspect I may have overfilled the system when bleeding, but not sure. Firstly the pistons do not move in sync, on both sides one piston needs several more flicks of the lever to fully come our and hit the bleeding block (when using the one sided side of the block). Have tried to get rid of this stickiness in the pistons through pumping them in and out with the block, but to no help. Secondly the pads seem to not retract very well always, I start to get very slight rotor rub at times mid ride, despite meticulous centering of the caliper. Third the power seems sometimes to be lacking - but this may be due to glazing of pads (use the sintered ones). I ride a lot behind my kid (and am not a super good rider), so drag brakes too much. However have zero issues w rear brake - allthough have not checked the sticky piston issue on the rear, as it just works well. Any advice appreciated!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Roto599 said:


> Hi, having some issues with my Dominion A4 front brake. I suspect I may have overfilled the system when bleeding, but not sure. Firstly the pistons do not move in sync, on both sides one piston needs several more flicks of the lever to fully come our and hit the bleeding block (when using the one sided side of the block). Have tried to get rid of this stickiness in the pistons through pumping them in and out with the block, but to no help. Secondly the pads seem to not retract very well always, I start to get very slight rotor rub at times mid ride, despite meticulous centering of the caliper. Third the power seems sometimes to be lacking - but this may be due to glazing of pads (use the sintered ones). I ride a lot behind my kid (and am not a super good rider), so drag brakes too much. However have zero issues w rear brake - allthough have not checked the sticky piston issue on the rear, as it just works well. Any advice appreciated!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey mate, I would definitely take the pads out and get those pistons moving freely and equally before going any further. Just pump the lever whilst holding 3 of the pistons back at at time and alternate until they all move well.

If you are doing general riding maybe change the sintered pads out for the semi sintered ones that you should have as spares as they will work better at lower temps. The sintered need quite a bit of heat to work properly so why waste them on slower rides. Power problems with these brakes are a set up issue. Once they are set up they are brilliant in all conditions that I have come across.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Roto599 said:


> Hi, having some issues with my Dominion A4 front brake. I suspect I may have overfilled the system when bleeding, but not sure. Firstly the pistons do not move in sync, on both sides one piston needs several more flicks of the lever to fully come our and hit the bleeding block (when using the one sided side of the block). Have tried to get rid of this stickiness in the pistons through pumping them in and out with the block, but to no help. Secondly the pads seem to not retract very well always, I start to get very slight rotor rub at times mid ride, despite meticulous centering of the caliper. Third the power seems sometimes to be lacking - but this may be due to glazing of pads (use the sintered ones). I ride a lot behind my kid (and am not a super good rider), so drag brakes too much. However have zero issues w rear brake - allthough have not checked the sticky piston issue on the rear, as it just works well. Any advice appreciated!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can use the one side block so 2 pistons are blocked and 2 will extend fully, drop some oil on them while they're out, push them back and pump out again. Repeat exercise with the other side.
Should solve your power and retraction /rub issues 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

springs said:


> Hey mate, I would definitely take the pads out and get those pistons moving freely and equally before going any further. Just pump the lever whilst holding 3 of the pistons back at at time and alternate until they all move well.
> 
> If you are doing general riding maybe change the sintered pads out for the semi sintered ones that you should have as spares as they will work better at lower temps. The sintered need quite a bit of heat to work properly so why waste them on slower rides. Power problems with these brakes are a set up issue. Once they are set up they are brilliant in all conditions that I have come across.


Cause the sintered ones last 3x longer for the money  if not more 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

romulin said:


> Cause the sintered ones last 3x longer for the money  if not more


I have a set of sintered pads that have done over 100k ft of hard descending and still have quite a bit of life left in them. That's just crazy.


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

How's the pad roll back on your Dominions guys, does it differ per caliper? Read somewhere it should be pretty good, but mine have even less space than my Magura's, find it very hard to not have the disc rotor rub. Other caliper seems to have just a hair more clearance, and hence the lever a smidgen more free stroke. Have reset the pistons many times, lubed them up, doesn't help, a few squeezes and they're back to almost no clearance.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Boozzz said:


> How's the pad roll back on your Dominions guys, does it differ per caliper? Read somewhere it should be pretty good, but mine have even less space than my Magura's, find it very hard to not have the disc rotor rub. Other caliper seems to have just a hair more clearance, and hence the lever a smidgen more free stroke. Have reset the pistons many times, lubed them up, doesn't help, a few squeezes and they're back to almost no clearance.


I got rub side to side cause of bent rotors, otherwise I would be fine.
Tried a bleed?
I think yours are either over filled, or quite new, mine has this issue before I cut the hose, the pistons would re adjust regularly, then I cut the hose, bled them and now they are consistent 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Boozzz said:


> How's the pad roll back on your Dominions guys, does it differ per caliper? Read somewhere it should be pretty good, but mine have even less space than my Magura's, find it very hard to not have the disc rotor rub. Other caliper seems to have just a hair more clearance, and hence the lever a smidgen more free stroke. Have reset the pistons many times, lubed them up, doesn't help, a few squeezes and they're back to almost no clearance.


Question - are you bleeding the brakes with the pads out and the bleed block? I am guilty of having done some fast 'touch up' bleeds without doing that, and I am pretty sure that it results in the pads being closer to the rotor even if you have fresh pads. If you have worn pads it's even more of an issue.


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

ColinL said:


> Question - are you bleeding the brakes with the pads out and the bleed block? I am guilty of having done some fast 'touch up' bleeds without doing that, and I am pretty sure that it results in the pads being closer to the rotor even if you have fresh pads. If you have worn pads it's even more of an issue.


With the bleed block. Brakes are brand new. Funny thing (or not so funny perhaps) is that on one caliper, you can easily push in the bleed block, on the other caliper (the one with less clearance), you really have to force that same bleed block in. Pistons fully retracted on both, so spacing not exactly the same between the two calipers. Shouldn't matter for clearance I reckon, but again as with the levers, not impressed with Hayes' questionable production tolerances. Some obvious tooling marks on one of the calipers too. And still waiting on Hayes' new lever that they promised as well, communication has gone completely silent for almost two weeks now


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

Hi guys! Do you know where to find instructions on how to switch levers for dominion a4? I'm planning to change it to Short lever but i can't find instructions in youtube and google. Or does anyone knows how to change it near Los angeles? Thank you guys!


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

soothsayer1991 said:


> Hi guys! Do you know where to find instructions on how to switch levers for dominion a4? I'm planning to change it to Short lever but i can't find instructions in youtube and google. Or does anyone knows how to change it near Los angeles? Thank you guys!


Loosen and remove the two Torx bolts (T10) that go through the lever bearings. Take out lever blade. Slide in new lever blade. Fasten Torx bolts. Super easy


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

Boozzz said:


> Loosen and remove the two Torx bolts (T10) that go through the lever bearings. Take out lever blade. Slide in new lever blade. Fasten Torx bolts. Super easy


That easy?! I thought it's gonna be real hard to replace lever. And one more thing, no need to bleed right? Thank you again!


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

soothsayer1991 said:


> That easy?! I thought it's gonna be real hard to replace lever. And one more thing, no need to bleed right? Thank you again!


Nope, as long as you're simply changing the lever blade and not the whole lever assembly, it's a 30 seconds job, no need to bleed.


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

Boozzz said:


> Nope, as long as you're simply changing the lever blade and not the whole lever assembly, it's a 30 second job, no need to bleed.


Cool thanks! I just got confused between lever blade and whole lever assembly, i'm gonna get this lever, this is considered as lever blade only right? I'll post the website below. Sorry, I feel stupid now 😅 thank you!










Hayes Dominion SFL Brake Lever - Replacement Lever Only


Hayes Dominion SFL Brake Lever - Replacement Lever Only. Replacement levers pivots and bushings for Hayes hydraulic disc levers. TECH SPECS Color Bronze Brake Lever Actuation Hydraulic




northwestbicycle.com


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

soothsayer1991 said:


> Cool thanks! I just got confused between lever blade and whole lever assembly, i'm gonna get this lever, this is considered as lever blade only right? I'll post the website below. Sorry, I feel stupid now 😅 thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, that's a lever blade


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## soothsayer1991 (Oct 1, 2020)

Boozzz said:


> Yup, that's a lever blade


That's my last question, sorry for bothering you 😅 thank you so much!


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## mtbdudex (Jan 13, 2020)

Great thread!
I’m nearing 3.5k miles on my November 2019 purchased fattie, 2020 framed model that came with D4’s. Zero issues, I replaced pads twice, always have replacement set on hand. Truly love the stopping power and modulation. Use them 4 season, have studded winter tire set. 
Last weekend 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Antimatter (Jan 3, 2018)

I recommend that you keep an eye on your rotors to ensure they're true after every ride. Some rotors are not true even being brand new out of the box. Some rotors need more maintenance to keep them straight more than others. This is for riders that have rubbing issues with the pads.

Another idea is to ditch the quick release in favor of regular axles. Axles being too tight or too loose can make the position of the rotor off-center. This is why I prefer to use a torque wrench instead.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Boozzz said:


> Loosen and remove the two Torx bolts (T10) that go through the lever bearings. Take out lever blade. Slide in new lever blade. Fasten Torx bolts. Super easy


Maybe add a drop of blue loctite on the threads to they don't back out?

Also crack open a beer. All bike work needs to be done with a beer.


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## Boozzz (Aug 20, 2005)

006_007 said:


> Maybe add a drop of blue loctite on the threads to they don't back out?
> 
> Also crack open a beer. All bike work needs to be done with a beer.


Beer always helps. I need some myself, with all my frustration with these brakes.

Just compared the actual pad clearance, between the brake with the crappy lever that Hayes was supposed to replace, and the one I've been using on my bike. The difference between the two calipers is night and day, as is the difference in lever throw. The one I haven't been using feel fantastic, proper pad clearance, easy to setup. The one I've been using is way too tight on clearance, big difference in lever travel too of course (as in, almost no travel before the pads hit the rotor). Pistons reset fully on both brakes, clean and lubed, both need a few squeezes to set them to the disc rotor, but one just sits far too close to the rotor after that. Hope I can work something out with the shop.


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

Anyone know where you can pick up a set of the new 2 piece barbs and compression rings for the a4's? I looked around but to no luck... I contacted Hayes and they said they dont have any to sell (hmmm)..


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## Starry Firmament (Sep 15, 2019)

i found that the braking power of the dominion a4 decrease when i pull the lever near the handlebar,
the more it near the handlebar , the weaker the braking pwoer.
does anyone have the same problem? please share your solution.


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## Seniorbrucio (Dec 28, 2020)

Starry Firmament said:


> i found that the braking power of the dominion a4 decrease when i pull the lever near the handlebar,
> the more it near the handlebar , the weaker the braking pwoer.
> does anyone have the same problem? please share your solution.


Nope.

Not sure why that would happen.


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## Seniorbrucio (Dec 28, 2020)

Bought another set to swap for my Hope E4s.

Hopes were ok for much of the xc-ish riding I do but really struggled on extended (and not even that long, 6 mins or so) dh.

Dominions are just so much better. Tons of power, super light and easy to modulate with their linear pull.


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## adurant (May 31, 2019)

Starry Firmament said:


> i found that the braking power of the dominion a4 decrease when i pull the lever near the handlebar,
> the more it near the handlebar , the weaker the braking pwoer.
> does anyone have the same problem? please share your solution.


Does the power eventually almost completely disappear until you fully release the brake? If you squeeze the brake and get good bite, but then as you continue to squeeze the lever slowly goes to the bar over 5-10 seconds or so (and you in turn lose power) then there may be leak in your lever allowing fluid to return into the reservoir.


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## DerrickT (Jun 10, 2004)

Apologies if this has been asked but anyone tried Shimano or SRAM olives with these Dominion?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

I need a brake line and no one seems to have them. Is there another line with the same inner diameter that would work?


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Cerberus75 said:


> I need a brake line and no one seems to have them. Is there another line with the same inner diameter that would work?


Pretty sure most Hayes brake lines are compatible. My Hayes Mag brake hose fit Prime Pro & Dominions. Reach out to Hayes for confirmation.










Hayes Stroker Hose Kit 150cm Front or Rear Hydraulic Disc Brake Hose & Fittings | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Hayes Stroker Hose Kit 150cm Front or Rear Hydraulic Disc Brake Hose & Fittings at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

keen said:


> Pretty sure most Hayes brake lines are compatible. My Hayes Mag brake hose fit Prime Pro & Dominions. Reach out to Hayes for confirmation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks I ordered that it doesn't have the Bango fitting.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Cerberus75 said:


> Thanks I ordered that it doesn't have the Bango fitting.


sure looks like it has the banjo on one end?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

keen said:


> sure looks like it has the banjo on one end?


Thanks it does. I ordered it and will return it if it comes without one.


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

Will these work with SRAM 200mm rotors + 200mm post adapter? (The new HS2 rotors are 2mm thick)

Since 180mm is universal I assume a 200mm rotor/adapter has to work like normal too, I'm not sure how there would be complications if the adapter matches the rotor.

I got a new SRAM HS2 rotor which is 2mm thick (so thickness will be like Hayes) and now I'm thinking about just getting new brakes as well, the new brakes will depend on if I also need new rotors and adapters to go with them.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

idividebyzero said:


> Will these work with SRAM 200mm rotors + 200mm post adapter? (The new HS2 rotors are 2mm thick)
> 
> Since 180mm is universal I assume a 200mm rotor/adapter has to work like normal too, I'm not sure how there would be complications if the adapter matches the rotor.
> 
> I got a new SRAM HS2 rotor which is 2mm thick (so thickness will be like Hayes) and now I'm thinking about just getting new brakes as well, the new brakes will depend on if I also need new rotors and adapters to go with them.


The caliper may not clear the +20 adapter. I tried to go with 220mm HS2 rotors but the Dominion calipers do not clear the +40mm adapter.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

springs said:


> The caliper may not clear the +20 adapter.


That's correct. I can't remember if I had Sram, Shimano, or Brand X adapters to choose from, but the Hayes body is a bigger diameter and it wouldn't fit anything I had. I ended up milling the adapter to give a little more clearance.


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

Easy enough to dremel a groove out of it, Ive seen a picture and it looked like they just shaved the corner off. I just dont want to have to get 203mm rotors after just buying HS2. 

If I really do need one then wouldnt the cheap 160>180 adapters for Hayes/Magura work on a 180 post since they are +20? Its what I use now for 200


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## Headoc (Mar 24, 2015)

Need some help / advice. Having some challenges w A4s. First the front brake reservoir died?, and I couldn’t bleed. Hayes requested I send in and they ultimately sent a whole new set up. Unfortunately due to supply constraints I had to buy a new front brake as it took 2 mos to send new brake. But have new lever / caliper unopened in the basement. Unfortunately now running brakes for 2 years and pad retraction is a problem on new front brake and old back brake. Using Hayes rotors and appear true but no space between pads and rotors at all. Imagine it’s for different reasons as front brake is new. Any advice? Bleed? Tried cleaning pistons but may have made it worse. Was huge fan of brakes when new but rubbing and pad retraction issues has me looking at other options. Not that there’s a whole lot…


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Deleted. Should have read 10 posts previously, re: brake hoses.


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## habaden (Sep 16, 2019)

Does anyone have a fix for the long lever throw? These brakes would be perfect but I hate having so much lever movement. Have had two shops bleed them and still have the same amount of movement but still good power I just don’t want to almost pull to my knuckles


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

habaden said:


> Does anyone have a fix for the long lever throw? These brakes would be perfect but I hate having so much lever movement. Have had two shops bleed them and still have the same amount of movement but still good power I just don’t want to almost pull to my knuckles


Have you tried bleeding them with the lever off? Than take the block out before putting it back on.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

habaden said:


> Does anyone have a fix for the long lever throw? These brakes would be perfect but I hate having so much lever movement. Have had two shops bleed them and still have the same amount of movement but still good power I just don’t want to almost pull to my knuckles


I started this thread a while a go. For me, it turned out the large 33mm diameter grips were the problem. went to 30mm grips and it all got way better.








Shortening the Hayes Dominion lever throw?


One thing occurred to me while out on the ride today. I took several pauses to fiddle with the reach adjust dial and really think about what it is that makes these brakes not perfect. I kinda started to ponder that maybe my grips may be a contributing factor- they’re the grips I’ve been running...




www.mtbr.com


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Anyone else have issues with the Hayes D series rotors going out of true quickly under normal/hard use? Pretty much each and every ride my rotors are singing when riding slowly as one point on the rotor is now touching the pads as they rotate...quite annoying.


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## mtbdudex (Jan 13, 2020)

habaden said:


> Does anyone have a fix for the long lever throw? These brakes would be perfect but I hate having so much lever movement. Have had two shops bleed them and still have the same amount of movement but still good power I just don’t want to almost pull to my knuckles


Wow, I’m onto 3 seasons with mine and they have near insta bite, love the ability to dial in where it grabs with the + / - dial. The modulation is precise and 1 finger stopping, with no hitting my other fingers on the bar ever. Zero noise, past 3 winter rides quiet my friends brakes were like squeaky loud.
I change pads before they wear, well 1 time I was just late. Put 4,000 miles plus on mine as a system.
Something is wrong with yours, ugh.
We’re they always like that?
Seems bad seals, I’d rebuild them.

Have you self gone thru this guide?
Try it.

Setup:
https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360037399773-Dominion-A4-Install-and-Set-up-Guide 


Service and bleed:



https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360036918434-Dominion-A4














Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

There is very little information online about the A2/T2 so I’ll give my 1 month feedback.

I have the T2 (the version of the A2 with carbon lever and titanium hardware) Running 180mm dominion rotors, and metallic pads on my 2022 Sworks epic evo. 

I replaced the SRAM G2 Ultimate 4 piston brakes with these. The sram brakes were fine for a couple of months, but on the 2nd set of pads (went from organic to metallic, organic were fine but just didn’t last long enough) I started having problems. At one point I literally couldn’t lock up the rear. I found the power became inconsistent and distracting. And I didn’t like the spongy lever feel. 

The T2 have been working well so far. Surprised and happy that they felt like they had more power than the G2, which had the 180mm sram rotors. The power feels totally appropriate for this type of bike. I’ve had A4s on my ripmo v2 for a couple of years. I didn’t ride the ripmo for a couple months and when I took it out after getting used to the G2, the power of the A4 was a bit of a rude awakening. The G2 isn’t even close to the A4. The T2 is a little more than the G2. 

Lever feel is firmer than the sram, no real complaints so far but I would prefer it to get firmer, might need another bleed, idk.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

habaden said:


> Does anyone have a fix for the long lever throw? These brakes would be perfect but I hate having so much lever movement. Have had two shops bleed them and still have the same amount of movement but still good power I just don’t want to almost pull to my knuckles


Thicker rotor, but not too thick. I tried a 2mm thick galfer rotor once (I think the hayes rotors are 1.95mm), and to my surprise, it reduced the lever throw quite a bit compared to the Hayes rotor. 

You wouldn't think 0.05mm would make that much of a difference, but in my experience, it felt pretty significant.


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## greyshrike (Mar 8, 2020)

I have only unboxed them so far, but I like my new SFL A4s more than my regular dominions. You could say I have medium sized hands and I have never had a problem with the normal levers, but I like trying new stuff. They were also cheaper from DE. They're longer and thinner but with the reach maxed out the overall shape reminds me very much of Magura's MT5 1-finger levers.

SFL on top of regular levers - reach is set in the middle for both









On top of MT5s max reach









min reach









Hope this helps someone considering these


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## slabking3 (12 mo ago)

MX9799 said:


> Thicker rotor, but not too thick. I tried a 2mm thick galfer rotor once (I think the hayes rotors are 1.95mm), and to my surprise, it reduced the lever throw quite a bit compared to the Hayes rotor.
> 
> You wouldn't think 0.05mm would make that much of a difference, but in my experience, it felt pretty significant.


Did you have any issues using the thicker Galfer rotor? I've been thinking about using a 220m up front, rather than the D-series rotor, but am concerned about clearance/excess pad rubbing.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

slabking3 said:


> Did you have any issues using the thicker Galfer rotor? I've been thinking about using a 220m up front, rather than the D-series rotor, but am concerned about clearance/excess pad rubbing.


I did the same thing. Yeah, I did have issues with pad clearance and rubbing, but I will say it was no more of an issue with with galfer rotor than it was with the hayes d-series rotor. Seems no matter what rotor I use with dominion brakes, I get pad rub on rides. It's like on just about every ride, no matter what rotor I'm using, the pistons will gradually move outwards and I'll have a small amount of pad contact at some point. Sometimes it comes a goes, and sometimes it persists until I clean and reset the pistons, but it always happens. It's never so bad of a rub that I can feel it slowing me down or anything, but it's enough contact to hear on quieter parts of the trail.


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## slabking3 (12 mo ago)

MX9799 said:


> I did the same thing. Yeah, I did have issues with pad clearance and rubbing, but I will say it was no more of an issue with with galfer rotor than it was with the hayes d-series rotor. Seems no matter what rotor I use with dominion brakes, I get pad rub on rides. It's like on just about every ride, no matter what rotor I'm using, the pistons will gradually move outwards and I'll have a small amount of pad contact at some point. Sometimes it comes a goes, and sometimes it persists until I clean and reset the pistons, but it always happens. It's never so bad of a rub that I can feel it slowing me down or anything, but it's enough contact to hear on quieter parts of the trail.


Thanks for the reply. That is welcome news, as I still hear rubbing no matter what as well. I'm currently on a Transition Spire, running the Hayes 203mm adapter for my 180mm post mount. Do you mind if I ask what your current set-up is? If I wanted to go up to the Galfer 220mm 2.0mm thick rotor, what post mount would I need/did you end up running? Thanks in advance.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

slabking3 said:


> Thanks for the reply. That is welcome news, as I still hear rubbing no matter what as well. I'm currently on a Transition Spire, running the Hayes 203mm adapter for my 180mm post mount. Do you mind if I ask what your current set-up is? If I wanted to go up to the Galfer 220mm 2.0mm thick rotor, what post mount would I need/did you end up running? Thanks in advance.


I had the 223mm galfer 2mm rotor with a galfer +43 adapter. The galfer adapter just barely cleared the dominion A4 caliper. I ran them on my giant reign E+1.
I’ve recently put my saint brake back on the fork. Got tired of hearing the rubbing and messing with the pistons. Unfortunately, the galfer 223 rotor hits the saint caliper with the 43mm adapter, so for now I’m just running the saint brake with the 203mm Hayes D series rotor. I wish I could run the bigger rotor, but it won’t work so the 203 rotor will have to do for now.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

I have looked through the thread and cannot seem to see an answer. Has anyone used Dominions with Hope‘s floating rotors. Do they clear the rivets?


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I just installed a new set: couple complaints. 
1. Unlike Shimano / TRP the second I cut the hose to adjust line length the reservoir dumps fluid all over the ground. WTF.
2. Requires a full bleed to adjust line length. Step 1 of that bleed procedures is "remove brakes from bike and mount on an extra handlebar". also WTF.
3. Fluid started leaking out of the faceplate on the MC while I was bleeding the brakes. Checked with a friend. His did also. More WTF.
4. To finish bleeding you disconnect the syringes (after applying a little bit of positive pressure) and just let dot fluid leak all over the place until you get the grub screw back in. It's 2022. That's the best way?
5. Yay clean-up dot fluid from all the caliper surfaces. Hopefully I didn't contaminate anything. 

The finish sort of sucks. There are random shiny spots on the calipers. Everything just seems sort of "meh". 

No actual comments or thoughts on performance yet. But, so far I would take TRP over these from an ease of installation standpoint. I really like the Slates I have (but I want more power for this bike). and I would assume I would be fine with the Trail Evos or the DHR Evos. The Dominion A4s better just really wow me to be worth that set-up hassle.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I've installed two sets, one old style and the other new style.

I haven't encountered issues #1, 2, or 3. 4 and 5.... well...

it's way easier to bleed them on a spar bar, but I've done it both ways, without issue.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I don't know what your secret is. After the first lever dumped. I angled the other lever up a ton before cutting it. Didn't visually lose a lot fluid, but it still felt like it needed a bleed and was super spongy. I guess I could mount the reservoirs vertically before cutting.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Donno, all I do is mount em on the bars, then disconnect the fitting and pull the olive out. I don't cut with the levers connected?


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I disconnected the hose before cutting it. It didn't leak. Makes sense, because when you pull out the hose from caliper you gradually increase the space where oil can be. 

You do not need extra handlebar. Rotate the handlebat 90 degrees and angle the frame upwards. 

With Hayes bleed kit you can clamp the hoses before removing them - it minimizes the leakage.


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## oldfartwannabembker (Jul 31, 2021)

greyshrike said:


> I have only unboxed them so far, but I like my new SFL A4s more than my regular dominions. You could say I have medium sized hands and I have never had a problem with the normal levers, but I like trying new stuff. They were also cheaper from DE. They're longer and thinner but with the reach maxed out the overall shape reminds me very much of Magura's MT5 1-finger levers.
> 
> SFL on top of regular levers - reach is set in the middle for both
> View attachment 1967031
> ...


I bought a new pair SFL A4s when they were on sale for a small discount, bought blind because there were no images on the webiste to actually show how smaller/thinner they were so I took a chance and ordered a pair thinking that they would maybe be just a little bit shorter then the standard a4 levers were for my smaller hands and fingers, BUT they were shorter and thinner so I just returned them and will just fit the pair I already bought used for about the same price.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

cassieno said:


> I just installed a new set: couple complaints.
> 1. Unlike Shimano / TRP the second I cut the hose to adjust line length the reservoir dumps fluid all over the ground. WTF.
> 2. Requires a full bleed to adjust line length. Step 1 of that bleed procedures is "remove brakes from bike and mount on an extra handlebar". also WTF.
> 3. Fluid started leaking out of the faceplate on the MC while I was bleeding the brakes. Checked with a friend. His did also. More WTF.
> ...


I won’t say that the problems you recount ‘didn’t happen’, or you did something wrong, but personally in 15 years of using hydraulic brakes, my A4s were the most painless set up I’ve had…maybe ever.
I won’t deny that if you cut the line the MC drains, but I just held a rag and caught the drips.

I moved my brakes from one frame to a new one about two months ago. By far the hardest part was routing the line in the frame.
I clamped the mc/lever to the bar and ran the line through the frame. Used a shoelace to hold the bars turned.
Once the olive was on and the compression fitting tightened, it was literally like 3 passes of fluid and I was ready to put the pads in.
Push fluid up, push it down, push it up. That was it. No more bubbles. I didn’t even do the ‘other’ Inboard caliper fitting, just the outboard one.
Removed the MC syringe and install the screw, remove the caliper syringe and install the screw. Hose the bike off for good measure.
Install pads and wheel.
Go ride.

no brake is perfect, but this was was so easy. I’ve spent many hours battling bubbles trapped in Magura and SRAM lines, stupid one-way ‘catch bag’ systems on the caliper…
I’ll take the Hayes system all day every day.

EDIT: to add, I recently helped a buddy bleed a set of Hope e4s…omfg what a nightmare that was. Fill the cup, open the caliper fitting, pump the lever, close. Open. Pump. Close. Open. Pump. Close. Over and over until the cup was empty. Refil. Open. Pump. Close.
Jesus.


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

Ive never had a better bleed than these brakes thanks to the 2 ports on the caliper, but they are also the most difficult and messy to bleed that Ive ever done.

The only thing I hate about these brakes is that they didnt put any rubber seals for the bleed ports. I have to snug the syringes with pliers or else they leak like crazy when pushing fluid through, and even then they still leak a little during the process and I can't pull a vacuum because they just suck in air. I have worries about the grub screws being truly air tight, I've had them leak because I didnt torque them enough and the tips are already starting to deform from the torque, not sure how long they will last before causing problems. All of this could have been solved with some damn o-rings like every other brake system.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Sorry guys, it's been a while since I've read this thread.

Is anyone using a thicker rotor than the Hayes 2mm?
Will need new ones so I could also try a shorter bite point.. 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

Anyone know where to find a k2 brake hose kit for an a4 dominion in stock? Everything seems to be sold out...


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

SB Trails said:


> Anyone know where to find a k2 brake hose kit for an a4 dominion in stock? Everything seems to be sold out...


i used a Hayes Stroker kit off Ebay on a customers l Ripmo. it was just long enough.


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

good to know Cerberus75.. Thanks...


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Couple questions- I installed the front brake and trimmed the hose but only bleed at the MC/lever not the caliper, brake feels firm and right do I need to bother bleeding at the caliper too? Also, the rotor will not spin drag free I tried backing out the contact point screw 4 full turns but the pads are still tight on the rotor, do the pads just need to break in first? I'm using Shimano ice tech rotors. Thx!


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Mine fit on my icetech rotors. They do drag pretty frequently, but aren't tight.

Have you ridden down the street etc. To see if it spins free?

I also did a full bleed, unsure if that makes a difference.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Tickle said:


> brake feels firm and right do I need to bother bleeding at the caliper too?


If it feels firm and consistent, you'll be fine. 



Tickle said:


> Also, the rotor will not spin drag free I tried backing out the contact point screw


There are no adjustments for the symptom you describe. Assuming your caliper is perfectly aligned and it's still too tight, you need to remove the caliper and push the pistons back in. Start over, let the pistons come out to their "happy place," then realign the caliper.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Thx guys I did try pushing pistons back in and realigning but once I squeeze the lever a few times the pads drag a little, not tight but more than it should. One thing I noticed is even w pistons all the way in the pads are tight on the rotor so I was thinking a little pad wear/break in is needed to run drag free.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

The first time you go ride they will start dragging. And then they will drag on and off for the rest of your rides.

It's a "feature"


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

I have Dominions on both my Ebike and my Ripmo AF. Takes a couple rides for them to set and once they do they wont waiver. Best brakes Ive owned.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

cassieno said:


> The first time you go ride they will start dragging. And then they will drag on and off for the rest of your rides.
> 
> It's a "feature"


Lol I don't like that feature, hopefully not accompanied by that annoying "ching ching ching' noise tho!


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Tickle said:


> Lol I don't like that feature, hopefully not accompanied by that annoying "ching ching ching' noise tho!


Neither of mine have done this.... They are fickle to get adjusted,but once they are right they stay right.... Couple small adjustmets to the caliper and a rebleed and they've been perfect since.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

cassieno said:


> The first time you go ride they will start dragging. And then they will drag on and off for the rest of your rides.
> 
> It's a "feature"


These run free and you can see daylight either side of the rotor. If you can't you've either got a sticky piston or a bad bleed. Air in the fluid will prevent the pistons from springing back as they air bubble will keep residual pressure behind the pistons.

Bleed them again, pull back on the syringe to expand and suck out any trapped air bubbles. Walk the pistons in/out, the bleed block can be used to trap one sides pistons so you can exercise the others.



Tickle said:


> Lol I don't like that feature, hopefully not accompanied by that annoying "ching ching ching' noise tho!


That means you've got a warped rotor. Tweak it straight with clean hands and you'll be sorted.


I've got something like 5 seasons on mine. Still running great. 1-2 sets of pads per year in the front, a bit under 1 set a year in the back. I've worn out 1 front rotor.


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

rotor could be rubbing the caliper body too, I had to push in the pistons on side so I could get the caliper further away from the rotor. I had that issue with Shimano calipers and the narrow slot, with these it was the metal being too thick around the bolts that was catching the rotor arms


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## poonamibaxter (Aug 30, 2013)

I’ve got just over a year on mine and love em. I was recently having an issue with em pulling to the bars. They didn’t feel like they needed a bleed( weren’t pumping up), but a bled em yesterday and they feel like new again.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I've done a couple rides on the brakes and they feel great, love the lever feel compared to the Shimano's. The rear brake is running drag free but the front still wants to rub a little, I did do a full bleed and tried moving the pistons in all the way and realigning caliper but still some rub, the pads are tight on the rotor. I did not do the caliper dual port bleed, the video said it's only needed if you do a rebuild, maybe still some air in the caliper? Lever has a nice firm feel tho


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Tickle said:


> I've done a couple rides on the brakes and they feel great, love the lever feel compared to the Shimano's. The rear brake is running drag free but the front still wants to rub a little, I did do a full bleed and tried moving the pistons in all the way and realigning caliper but still some rub, the pads are tight on the rotor. I did not do the caliper dual port bleed, the video said it's only needed if you do a rebuild, maybe still some air in the caliper? Lever has a nice firm feel tho


Takes 4-5 rides to settle them in.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

New video for bleeding, no mention for removing from bike otherwise process looks the same I think.


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## rocky25 (Dec 28, 2019)

Gutted! 
Went to install my Dominions on my new 22 Levo and found the rear brake hose guide/sleeve thingy inside the frame not big enough to allow the hose to slide around the tight radius bends.
Might have to try just using the levers with the Code calipers


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

rocky25 said:


> Gutted!
> Went to install my Dominions on my new 22 Levo and found the rear brake hose guide/sleeve thingy inside the frame not big enough to allow the hose to slide around the tight radius bends.
> Might have to try just using the levers with the Code calipers


The hoses for the Dominions are larger.


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## poonamibaxter (Aug 30, 2013)

I don't know who needs to hear this, but you cannot do a "good enough" bleed on these brakes. These are not shimanos. You need to follow these videos the whole way. Have a couple towels and some alcohol in a spray bottle. 

I had to bleed mine twice because I am stupid and lazy.


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## Kmag76 (Oct 12, 2016)

rocky25 said:


> Gutted!
> Went to install my Dominions on my new 22 Levo and found the rear brake hose guide/sleeve thingy inside the frame not big enough to allow the hose to slide around the tight radius bends.
> Might have to try just using the levers with the Code calipers


It should go! I have pushed the brake line through on a Levo SL and a spesh Enduro. 
I wore a pair of black latex gloves so I could get a better grip on the brake line. 


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

shiny said:


> New video for bleeding, no mention for removing from bike otherwise process looks the same I think.


I just bled my brakes this weekend, I thought they were good before, but it's unbelievable how much better they are now. I don't know if I just never got a "perfect" bleed the first time, or what but hooooolllly cow. I bought them 2nd hand from a guy who cracked his frame, and the rear line wasn't long enough for his new bike; he couldn't get a new line in time for a race, so he bought TRP DH-R Evos and sold me his Dominions.

One thing I noted is that like poonamibaxter commented, it's an easy bleed, but must be done precisely. 
I did a few things 'extra' or different than the video this time around. 
I put the lever almost parallel to the ground. I dunno if his made any difference. The port screw is pretty much in the corner, but flat prevents any spillage in my mind.
I used a shimano bleed block that allowed the pistons to extend like 1/2 mm out. (obviously later pushed them back flush)
I vacuum bled the line from both ends once or twice, and then from the lever end with the caliper screw replaced.
Then slightly pressurized the system from the caliper syringe.

I bet the lever throw got 50% shorter. They have the lever throw of new Shimano, but the modulation of SRAM. 
They changed so much I had to adjust the reach adjust inward because the lever felt 'too far away' even when squeezed.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

Any of yous guys have a good receipe for replacing the brake fluid on the front and back dominion a4 brake setup? Doing new pads refinishing rotors, resurfacing front post mount because it was not quite square with rotor. So I figured it was time for new fluid. Best bike brakes I have ever used.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Impetus said:


> I just bled my brakes this weekend, I thought they were good before, but it's unbelievable how much better they are now. I don't know if I just never got a "perfect" bleed the first time, or what but hooooolllly cow. I bought them 2nd hand from a guy who cracked his frame, and the rear line wasn't long enough for his new bike; he couldn't get a new line in time for a race, so he bought TRP DH-R Evos and sold me his Dominions.
> 
> One thing I noted is that like poonamibaxter commented, it's an easy bleed, but must be done precisely.
> I did a few things 'extra' or different than the video this time around.
> ...


Slight pressure from the caliper with the lever removed from the body gets this really nice.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

Cerberus75 said:


> Slight pressure from the caliper with the lever removed from the body gets this really nice.


What does pulling the lever off do?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

timsmcm said:


> What does pulling the lever off do?


Removing the lever allows for the master cylinder piston to fully extend. One of the videos had you remove them. I thought for cleaning ease but the bleed is much better.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

When changing brake fluid do you feed it into the master cylinder or up from the brake caliper?


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## EvilBkr (Mar 14, 2006)

cassieno said:


> The first time you go ride they will start dragging. And then they will drag on and off for the rest of your rides.
> 
> It's a "feature"


Really? Mine are totally drag free after a year plus


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Mine are running pretty much drag free now, took a few rides for pads to break in and pistons to retract enough to not drag tho. These brakes are really nice best lever feel I've tried and plenty of power

What's the deal w the arrows on the bar clamp?, just noticed them today, both ends of clamp look the same mine are both pointed down


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)




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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Figures I managed to get them both wrong  I'm not seeing how it matters tho both ends of clamp are identical as far as I can tell


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## Bills (Jun 13, 2009)

Have a set of the Dominions which have been unused for a couple years, mounted them up on a bike last week and got a sticky lever on my first ride, having to flick the lever back out after using the front brake. Was thinking maybe a rebuild after they set so long, but can’t find parts either.

Anyone have the sticky lever on these A4 brakes? What was the fix?


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Bills said:


> Have a set of the Dominions which have been unused for a couple years, mounted them up on a bike last week and got a sticky lever on my first ride, having to flick the lever back out after using the front brake. Was thinking maybe a rebuild after they set so long, but can’t find parts either.
> 
> Anyone have the sticky lever on these A4 brakes? What was the fix?


Older Hayes Stoker Trails would develop sticky lever syndrome. Fix was to grease the master cylinder piston seals. I'd reach out to Haye's first.

Grease : SRAM DOT Disc Brake Assembly Grease, 1oz


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## Bills (Jun 13, 2009)

keen said:


> Older Hayes Stoker Trails would develop sticky lever syndrome. Fix was to grease the master cylinder piston seals. I'd reach out to Haye's first.
> 
> Grease : SRAM DOT Disc Brake Assembly Grease, 1oz


Thanks, I will see what they suggest.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Is anybody running hope steel braided hoses successfully?

I've given them a shot, bled twice. Still had a pumping behavior like older shimano. Got a shop to do it, better but still pumping. Also noticed (already when bleeding) the flow thru the banjo must be much lower than on the Hayes hose. Lever feel is more "modulated" SRAM like .

So so lasted a bike holidays week, seems like loosing fluid in the middle of the hose..

Don't fix what is not broken and go back to Hayes hoses i guess? 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

romulin said:


> Is anybody running hope steel braided hoses successfully?
> 
> I've given them a shot, bled twice. Still had a pumping behavior like older shimano. Got a shop to do it, better but still pumping. Also noticed (already when bleeding) the flow thru the banjo must be much lower than on the Hayes hose. Lever feel is more "modulated" SRAM like .
> 
> ...


Are the Hope hose diameter larger than the stock hose? Installing Dominions on both my bikes required upgrading to Hayes hoses which are larger.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

CRM6 said:


> Are the Hope hose diameter larger than the stock hose? Installing Dominions on both my bikes required upgrading to Hayes hoses which are larger.


Don't know about the OD but ID must be bigger on the Hayes

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## 9GUY9 (Jul 14, 2007)

romulin said:


> Don't know about the OD but ID must be bigger on the Hayes
> 
> Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku



Related to this.....does anyone know of a compatible non Hayes hose? The Hayes hose kits have been unavailable for as long as I have been looking for one. I love these brakes, but getting them and parts has been a big issue.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

9GUY9 said:


> Related to this.....does anyone know of a compatible non Hayes hose? The Hayes hose kits have been unavailable for as long as I have been looking for one. I love these brakes, but getting them and parts has been a big issue.


I think Jagwire also does hoses with universal connectors or sells them extra so you can mix and match. How well they work I have no idea. Looks like in EU it's not a big deal getting the spares from a local distributor 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Where are you guys that you're not able to source hoses?


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## 9GUY9 (Jul 14, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Where are you guys that you're not able to source hoses?


I am in the US. Hayes as well as the retailers I have checked all show out of stock.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

9GUY9 said:


> I am in the US. Hayes as well as the retailers I have checked all show out of stock.


Hayes have the K2 hose which they list as compatible with the Dominion, Prime and Stroker. It's out of stock. But they have Stroker and Prime hoses in stock which should be compatible with the Dominion.

I don't have Strokers, but I have both Dominions and Primes on bikes here and they're the same fittings.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

I've gotten stroker hoses off ebay for clients. It's just long enough to fit on a large Ripmo. You may have issues with longer bikes.


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

Im waiting on the k2 kit for my dominion4. in the meantime im running the jagwire hydraulic kit with hayes stroker/ trail/ace adapter kit.. Works great..


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

I received these brakes today.
Can't install them yet, because european eshops, for some obscure reason, mostly don't have stuff like brake adapters and the Peacemaker thing, and one order got delayed, so I'm looking at various bits of info until then instead.

Can I use Shimano rotors with these? Or in other words: I have Shimano rotors and am not throwing perfectly fine ones away, this whole thing was expensive as hell already. Is there anything I should be aware of or something that has to be done?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I've been running galfer rotors. I don't see why you couldn't run shimanos.

fwiw, they worked when I borrowed a buddies wheels for a quick test in 2020 (my wheels were still being a collection of parts at the time)


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I started with Shimano rotors and there was too much free stroke for my liking. Switched to Hayes rotors and they are much better. I know, the brakes should self adjust for thinner rotors, but that didn't work for me.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Maybe I can just add a little more fluid during bleeding, which I have to do regardless because I have internally routed frame.



dysfunction said:


> I've been running galfer rotors. I don't see why you couldn't run shimanos.


That's not surprising, because Galfer rotors are a lot thicker than Shimano too.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Octopuss said:


> Maybe I can just add a little more fluid during bleeding, which I have to do regardless because I have internally routed frame.
> 
> 
> That's not surprising, because Galfer rotors are a lot thicker than Shimano too.


forcing extra fluid or bleeding with pistons extended just means you overfilled the system If you want less free stroke pump the pistons out w/ the caliper off the rotor.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

I have no idea what do you mean.
Of course I would overfill it very little (I do that with Shitmano too), there's no other way it seems. I'd have to make up for thinner rotors somehow.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Octopuss said:


> I have no idea what do you mean.
> Of course I would overfill it very little (I do that with Shitmano too), there's no other way it seems. I'd have to make up for thinner rotors somehow.


Brake systems automatically compensate for brake pad wear which means thinner pads. If apply pressure to the lever then look @ the pad to rotor spacing. If the pads have to travel before contacting the rotor you have lever movement. Pull the caliper off the rotor and pull the lever. piston / pads will extend then test fit on rotor. You want minimal clearance for a firm lever.


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## bonsaimike (May 29, 2019)

Hi,

I love my Dominion's but in the last time I have a problem with them... The rear break don't have a "hard" preassure point any more.

So I changed the complete dot(new bottle) like every year, did a bleed carefully and I took time to get sure that I don't have any air. Also removed the caliper so that I have strait lines, put new brake pad's in, cleaned everything, all pistons are movable and synchronous, ...

After bleeding the first ride was perfect like it should be. After the second with about 900hm downhill the lever had a very soft point and the lever nearly touched the grips. I searched for a leak but didn't find a problem.

So again bleeding - like the other times with the "three" openings and also watched the service video from hayes again, just for the case that I did something wrong - everything okay. 
After that the same again, first ride perfect, second ride undefined again 

I have no more idea's what I can do or where the problem is located. Still air in the system?
Maybe someone of you has a notice for me...

Thanks a lot!


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

keen said:


> Brake systems automatically compensate for brake pad wear which means thinner pads. If apply pressure to the lever then look @ the pad to rotor spacing. If the pads have to travel before contacting the rotor you have lever movement. Pull the caliper off the rotor and pull the lever. piston / pads will extend then test fit on rotor. You want minimal clearance for a firm lever.


Sorry I still don't have the slightest idea what you mean and how is that supposed to help me.
What I described reliably fixed the problem on Shimano, so it will work on Hayes too.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

I finally started to install the brakes today.
I am largely unimpressed by a company selling already connected caliper and a lever - in this time and age, most modern bikes have internally routed cables, and even those who don't most likely want to shorten the hoses anyway.

The noticeably thicker hoses compared to Shimano are pretty annoying too. They won't fit the frame caps and I'll either have to think hard about MacGyvering something or just call it and have some dirt get inside.

Also the nut that holds the hose inside the lever is made of Chinesium or something, because when I tried to loosen it with an appropriatelly sized wrench, I half-stripped the edges. Is this even steel? WTF!
I better start looking for spare parts, if Hayes even sells those (and getting *that* in Europe will be a *****).

Tomorrow I'll do the bleeding, which I'm sure will be interesting. I know it's basically the same process as on Shimano, but I'm still nervous about it. Especially after seeing the screws on the caliper that I'm apparently supposed to undo and replace with something from the bleed kit, which I have no idea how will not introduce air in the system.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Can anyone tell me what am I doing wrong?
I've been trying to center the caliper with no luck. It's just dragging like crazy, and that's with Shimano rotor!
The little side screws do absolutely nothing, and I think the pistons are not moving equally, which I have no idea what to do about, honestly.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

You should take it to a shop.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

For centering a caliper? Are you for real?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Octopuss said:


> For centering a caliper? Are you for real?


Yep. For you, very much so. 

This is a less than a minute item for me.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Ah you are one of the trolls I met before. 
Maybe stop following me around and mind your own business if you have nothing constructive to say.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

These are some of the easiest brakes to center. Tighten the bolts so the caliper barley moves pull the caliper towards you so it's rubbing the inside pad. Slowly turn the alignment screws while spinning the wheel. Stop when it's not rubbing and fully Tighten the bolts. If this doesn't work something is up with your mounts and you should have it looked at.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

So can anyone tell me how am I supposed to bleed the brakes without getting even more air in the system?
I did it according to this video 



, but the moment I unscrew the bottom syringre, tons of fluid start escaping, and only having two hands, I can't quickly smash the screw in there. Then when I unscrew the top syringe, there is already no fluid left in the screw hole, which I suspect means the fluid level has already dropped too low.

edit:
Hopefully solved by calling my father in law to add another hand. Haven't ridden it yet, but lever feels solid.
This really should be a little more thought out though.

Solved the rotor as well by having a coffee and starting to use the brains to do it a little differently. The generous amounts of locktite doesn't help precision turning though!!!


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I've done the bleeding a couple of times and I don't remember fluid flowing out when I remove the syringle. Did you close clips on syringe hoses before removing them?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Cerberus75 said:


> These are some of the easiest brakes to center. Tighten the bolts so the caliper barley moves pull the caliper towards you so it's rubbing the inside pad. Slowly turn the alignment screws while spinning the wheel. Stop when it's not rubbing and fully Tighten the bolts. If this doesn't work something is up with your mounts and you should have it looked at.


Yep.

Wrong wrench used, and this is an easy brake to bleed.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

arnea said:


> I've done the bleeding a couple of times and I don't remember fluid flowing out when I remove the syringle. Did you close clips on syringe hoses before removing them?


I said the fluid was pouring out of the bleed port(s), not out of the syringe(s).

Are you saying not a drop (ok not more than a few) got out when you unscrewed the syringes out of the caliper? I have a difficult time believing that. There's no vacuum holding the fluid inside.
Next time I might try undoing the lever syringe first, but I doubt it'd make any difference.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Some fluid will leak out. It's not much, this is normal and it's one of the reasons you add pressure before removing the syringes. I do this with a pretty relaxed pace and never have a problem, the more you rush the more you tend to screw it up. If you have a syringe attached at the top, with a good seal, it should NOT flood out. If it is, you've got something wrong going on. 

Have you read the instructions? Have you watched the (multiple good ones from Hayes) video? These are really easy brakes to work on. You're having enough issues with these that I would have a mechanic look. Either something is wrong, or you're doing something very wrong. Brakes that work, are important.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Which part where I linked a specific video and said I followed it did you miss?
I also read the manual from Hayes website, and ironically it's completely out of date, saying to use 3mm hex key to loosen caliper hose assembly screw when in fact it has a significantly larger torx in it for example.

I have no idea how much is "some". If the fluid wasn't said to eat paint like candy (which I have no idea how true/serious is) and I had something like the Shimano oil canister equivalent amount of it at hand, I'd have probably waited to see how much got out, but with those little somewhat expensive bottles, I didn't feel like experimenting on that front.
Maybe what I considered huge "leak" was normal, but I have no baseline to compare it to.

Maybe I'll try when I decide to shorten the front brake's hose. Speaking of that, what the hell are the hoses made out of? I completely blunted the cutting tool I have that normally eats through Shimano hose with just a firm press, and it took like half a minute of fighting to finally cut the damn thing (badly). Not that I object to an unbreakable hose, but it was very surprising, and I'm not excited to have to buy yet another tool (which I'll put in good use over time, but you know...)


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

The fluid will dissolve many paints. It takes time, like more time that it takes to finish up a bleed, crack open a beer and then remember that you forgot to clean the caliper time. So relax.

This one.



https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360036918434-Dominion-A4



Right here, you can see fluid come out. Look closely.





and here





The hose is very thick, and seems to have a thicker kevlar liner than most. You should try getting it through canfield internal cabling ports.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Octopuss said:


> I said the fluid was pouring out of the bleed port(s), not out of the syringe(s).
> 
> Are you saying not a drop (ok not more than a few) got out when you unscrewed the syringes out of the caliper? I have a difficult time believing that. There's no vacuum holding the fluid inside.
> Next time I might try undoing the lever syringe first, but I doubt it'd make any difference.


Yes, I understood that fluid was flowing out from the caliper. Why I asked about the clips on syringe hoses is that when you have good bleed and there is no air in the system - just fluid and the master cylinder syringe hose is clipped and you remove the syringe from the caliper then the surface tension should keep the fluid in. If there is air in the system it will expand and more fluid flows out. If the upper syringe is not clipped then the air that might be there (in my case I always got air into syringes during the bleeding) will expand and more fluid is coming out. If you closed the clips then perhaps the bleed was not too good and then there was air in the system. 

I've bled the brakes three times: two times for installation and once when I hunted the mysterious vibration. It was never messy (at least not messier than Shimano bleeding) and I always got good bleed on the first attempt (same experience with Shimano).


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## poonamibaxter (Aug 30, 2013)

bonsaimike said:


> Hi,
> 
> I love my Dominion's but in the last time I have a problem with them... The rear break don't have a "hard" preassure point any more.
> 
> ...



I have had the same issues with these brakes. I just did a caliper bleed then went though the normal bleed. All feels great right now but I have only been on one ride since. I have learned you really have to take your time on these. I have also added pulling up on the syringe while holding the other still to pull air out of the system. I love em but I am finding them a pain in the ass.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Finally took the bike for a ride.
I guess the pads still aren't fully... what's the expression? settled in?, but I can already say the brakes feel tons better than Shitmano. I guess I must be pretty oblivious to this modulation thing people keep talking about, but the braking strength is pretty damn good. The levers are also awesome.
Everything feels pretty good even with Shitmano rotors, and I managed to get the levers at just about perfectly comfortable distance from the handlebars too, which is something I was worried about.


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## Captramrod01 (Oct 11, 2011)

I may have missed it but has anyone found a 180-200mm post mount adapter that will work with the dominions? I'm running 200mm HS2 centerlock rotors but am having issues finding an adapter that will work. I understand the easy way out would be running adapters for the 6 bolt hayes 203 rotor....but I have to make life difficult.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Captramrod01 said:


> I may have missed it but has anyone found a 180-200mm post mount adapter that will work with the dominions? I'm running 200mm HS2 centerlock rotors but am having issues finding an adapter that will work. I understand the easy way out would be running adapters for the 6 bolt hayes 203 rotor....but I have to make life difficult.


Hope might work. I'm running 203's, but their adapters fit well otherwise.. as did magura


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## Captramrod01 (Oct 11, 2011)

@dysfunction Thanks. The Hope 20mm adapter looks like it has the offset that's needed.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

I've just noticed hopeless lack of Hayes adapters in my country (not surprising), and the german eshop I am buying rotors from doesn't have them either.
The fork has 180mm PM mount and I'll be getting 203mm rotor.
So basically same question as above. Is there anything that friggin' works with 203mm CL rotors?

Could this be what I'm looking for?








Adapter - H PM to PM front 183 black


Features All adapters or with screws for the fork supplied for the frame A wide range for most combinations CNC machined aluminum Adapter suitable available for brake discs of 183 mm Adapters Available in Black Product...




www.bike-discount.de


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## mtnwill (May 11, 2018)

Octopuss said:


> I've just noticed hopeless lack of Hayes adapters in my country (not surprising), and the german eshop I am buying rotors from doesn't have them either.
> The fork has 180mm PM mount and I'll be getting 203mm rotor.
> So basically same question as above. Is there anything that friggin' works with 203mm CL rotors?
> 
> ...


The Shimano 203 adapter worked on my Fox 36. Should be easy to find one of those


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

I have to report that Hope adapter F-183 doesn't work with Hayes. It's about 2mm too short to fit over the caliper 
That means I am royally screwed because noone in Europe seem to be selling the original stuff.


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## 155K98 (Jul 10, 2020)

Octopuss said:


> I have to report that Hope adapter F-183 doesn't work with Hayes. It's about 2mm too short to fit over the caliper
> That means I am royally screwed because noone in Europe seem to be selling the original stuff.


Check my post #750 in this thread: Hayes are back. Dominion 4 piston released at Eurobike.

Magura adapters fit also.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Awesome, thanks.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Octopuss said:


> I have to report that Hope adapter F-183 doesn't work with Hayes. It's about 2mm too short to fit over the caliper
> That means I am royally screwed because noone in Europe seem to be selling the original stuff.


Might try dremmeling off 2mm


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

For something that's already thin and the brake literally depends on that, I'd rather not


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## 155K98 (Jul 10, 2020)

Is it possible or has anyone successfully used any other hose insert & compression bushing with Dominion A4?

Would Shimano inserts work?


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

I wouldn't mess with that. Some inserts might work, but the olives are quite different between Hayes and Shimano.


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

For the guys looking for spacers that work with hayes..... north shore billet makes great spacers that work... just got one for my ripmo with a4... perfect.. plus different colors..

Link


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Is anyone using Galfer pads with A4s?
I am curious whether the purple ones might be better than the standard ones, compared to standard Hayes. Just going by the little "graphs" the purple pads should be a nobrainer (same performance but more durability), but...

(I intentionally leave the green pads out of the discussion as those have a little different use case in my eyes.)


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Octopuss said:


> Is anyone using Galfer pads with A4s?
> I am curious whether the purple ones might be better than the standard ones, compared to standard Hayes. Just going by the little "graphs" the purple pads should be a nobrainer, but...
> 
> (I intentionally leave the green pads out of the discussion as those have a little different use case in my eyes.)


I've got the orange ones in, as that is what the lbs at holidays spot could get (supposedly these are semi metallic /organic?)
Seem to bite well, tend to squeak sometimes, durability seems fair.
I usually run hayes full metal and will get them if available, but will have a look at the purple ones you suggest. 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Actually hold on, I have taken another look and the purple pads don't even exist in Hayes variant. Only the standard, green and red are available.

I currently have the basic Hayes pads installed with the green Galfers still in the original package, waiting for a bikepark riding to test them out, but was wondering if there was something a little better for regular riding I could get, thus the Galfer standard vs purple question. After all, with 97kg I'll take any increase in braking power I can get.


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## mtbdudex (Jan 13, 2020)

Caught these before they damaged my rotor .. that happened last year.
Replaced with Hayes type 106 semi-metallic, same 
That one corner getting too thin 









Just did the burnishing step , they seem to be dragging slightly still









Now I’ll re-set the gap











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk









__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Big Fil (Nov 5, 2014)

Just ordered and eagerly awaiting arrival of a new set of Dominion T4s after never being happy with the SRAM G2s that came on my bike. I have a couple of questions that i'm hoping some the experienced Dominion users maybe able to chime in on.

First question is regarding the bleed kit. Do I need to purchase the Dominion bleed kit or will the SRAM pro bleed kit I have work just the same?

Any issues with running thicker rotors with these brakes? I am currently running a set of SRAM centerline rotors that are 1.85mm thick but I also have had a set of Trickstuff 2.05mm brakes on backorder since April which they say are due to arrive sometime next month. Anyone have experience with running slightly larger diameter rotors than the standard Hayes ones?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Big Fil said:


> Just ordered and eagerly awaiting arrival of a new set of Dominion T4s after never being happy with the SRAM G2s that came on my bike. I have a couple of questions that i'm hoping some the experienced Dominion users maybe able to chime in on.
> 
> First question is regarding the bleed kit. Do I need to purchase the Dominion bleed kit or will the SRAM pro bleed kit I have work just the same?
> 
> Any issues with running thicker rotors with these brakes? I am currently running a set of SRAM centerline rotors that are 1.85mm thick but I also have had a set of Trickstuff 2.05mm brakes on backorder since April which they say are due to arrive sometime next month. Anyone have experience with running slightly larger diameter rotors than the standard Hayes ones?


I'm running Magura Storm 2.0 rotors. The tolerance is tight takes some finess to align them.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Big Fil said:


> Just ordered and eagerly awaiting arrival of a new set of Dominion T4s after never being happy with the SRAM G2s that came on my bike. I have a couple of questions that i'm hoping some the experienced Dominion users maybe able to chime in on.
> 
> First question is regarding the bleed kit. Do I need to purchase the Dominion bleed kit or will the SRAM pro bleed kit I have work just the same?
> 
> Any issues with running thicker rotors with these brakes? I am currently running a set of SRAM centerline rotors that are 1.85mm thick but I also have had a set of Trickstuff 2.05mm brakes on backorder since April which they say are due to arrive sometime next month. Anyone have experience with running slightly larger diameter rotors than the standard Hayes ones?


Since hayes D series rotors are also 2.0mm I can't see 0.05mm making a difference.
(I've run a shimano rotor equipped wheel in the rear, then put my wheel with hayes rotor in, still cleared great and lever throw down to instant /that's a difference of about 0.3mm since the shimano is ridden down a lot) 
Sram bleed kit works great. 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Big Fil (Nov 5, 2014)

romulin said:


> Since hayes D series rotors are also 2.0mm I can't see 0.05mm making a difference.
> (I've run a shimano rotor equipped wheel in the rear, then put my wheel with hayes rotor in, still cleared great and lever throw down to instant /that's a difference of about 0.3mm since the shimano is ridden down a lot)
> Sram bleed kit works great.
> 
> Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


Thanks for the info. Hayes list their rotors as 1.95 so about a mm a difference overall. That said, just got another delay on the rotors from Trickstuff. Looks like it'll be at least until September until they arrive so I may be running these with my SRAM Centerline rotors for a little bit here.


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

Big Fil said:


> Thanks for the info. Hayes list their rotors as 1.95 so about a mm a difference overall. That said, just got another delay on the rotors from Trickstuff. Looks like it'll be at least until September until they arrive so I may be running these with my SRAM Centerline rotors for a little bit here.


yep they are 1.95, and as others mentioned 2mm works but tight and may have some rubbing. You can really dial it in fairly easy with the adjustment provided. I've run Mag MDR-P for a while on my D-A4's without issue.


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## ipedalhard (Apr 25, 2021)

What type of pads are installed in the the brakes from the factory? I just installed my brakes and kept the ones with the black backside installed.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

ipedalhard said:


> What type of pads are installed in the the brakes from the factory? I just installed my brakes and kept the ones with the black backside installed.


Those are semi-metallic.


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## ipedalhard (Apr 25, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> Those are semi-metallic.


Nice! Participated in a local race running the brakes (and pads) for the first ever ride and was blown away - very pleased with how these perform!


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I've got 3 sets of Dominions and I love them (and also three Mezzers, big fan of the brand). Unfortunately, i'm hesitant to recommend them to anyone for the foreseeable future.

A few days ago I needed to add a bit of fluid and accidentally grabbed the Shimano Mineral Oil. Stupid mistake, i know. The seals in the master swelled up and i wasn't able to bleed them to fix my mistake (can't push fluid up through the master).

I thought it would be an easy fix, just a $10 kit for some seals and i'd be back in business. But Hayes doesn't make a master cylinder rebuild kit. They make a caliper rebuild kit, and they're happy to sell you a complete $150 master.

*That's a $300 repair for my mistake for two master cylinders*. At that point i'd rather just spend an extra $100 to get a complete set of Hope Tech e4's or something, at least then i'd be able to rebuild them.

I "filed a complaint" with the Hayes rep on the phone, i don't know if that means anything. But until these are rebuildable i'd recommend anything else. Even if you don't do something stupid like I did, you're still going to have to replace the master cylinder after some amount of time, and it's going to cost you as much as a new set of brakes. It's B.S.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Still better than Shimano not offering any rebuild kits at all.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

the-one1 said:


> Still better than Shimano not offering any rebuild kits at all.


Yeah, and the same reason I stopped buying Shimano brakes. If I wanted throwaway parts I have plenty of options.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I'm running these brakes w older Shimano ice tech rotors, want to replace the rotors as they are worn and the rear has a wobble I just can't get rid of. Should I go with the Hayes rotors or is there something else recommended?

Thx!


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## ARAZ (Jan 25, 2015)

Anyone replace the lever bearings or know the bearing spec on the A4? I popped the levers off to clean things out and saw that the inside bearing seals were all torn up. I put in some fresh grease, but would like to be able to put in some new seals if possible or replace the bearings if necessary.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Tickle said:


> I'm running these brakes w older Shimano ice tech rotors, want to replace the rotors as they are worn and the rear has a wobble I just can't get rid of. Should I go with the Hayes rotors or is there something else recommended?
> 
> Thx!











Thicker floating centerlock rotors?


None of the rotors mentioned so far are floating. Except those I ordered, lol.




www.mtbr.com


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Thx for the info, those SwissStop rotors do look nice wonder if I can find them. I already get a tad bit of drag at times w/Shimano so don't want anything too thick, and I need 6 bolt. I will look for those SwissStop's but leaning towards the Hayes to keep things uniform


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Ah if you want six bolt then Hayes is definitely a good option. I was specifically looking for CL, and SwissStop has both.


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Damn, the handlebar clamp bolts are made from Chinesium or something. I haven't even removed the clamp twice yet and one of the bolts is already half stripped. The heads are really thin-walled too.
I need to find stronger replacement.
Does anyone know the dimensions of these things? I bet they are pretty standard, but I don't want to risk taking them out at this point.

Also *I HATE HEX KEY*!!! Why isn't everything torx by now?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Damn man, I've got multi sets of a4s, and have for a couple years now.. You have more problems with these...


Buy a better set of hex keys, and slow down.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Octopuss said:


> Damn, the handlebar clamp bolts are made from Chinesium or something. I haven't even removed the clamp twice yet and one of the bolts is already half stripped. The heads are really thin-walled too.
> I need to find stronger replacement.
> Does anyone know the dimensions of these things? I bet they are pretty standard, but I don't want to risk taking them out at this point.
> 
> Also *I HATE HEX KEY*!!! Why isn't everything torx by now?


Yes they strip quite easily, but I've also figured out, they don't need to be too tight.
I put one side so the clamps touch, the other perhaps to 2 Nm. I've had them tight once, and snapped the mc in a crash.
Actually ordered some TI ones.
M5x20mm, will see next week if measured correctly 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Octopuss said:


> *I HATE HEX KEY*!!! Why isn't everything torx by now?


I don't hate either one. What I hate is half the bike this and the other half that.
Standardize PLEASE, bicycle industry! One way or the other.
I know, I know -- ain't gonna happen. SHM
=sParty


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

I have two sets of keys from Wera, those are awesome, but the bits set isn't as good. The bits are perfectly fine for good bolts/screws, but it's when you run into low quality stuff problems arise.

Btw what's better, steel or titanium? I don't care about weight (it's just bolts), but I want no compromises strength that's as much resistant to stripping as possible.

P.S. The only thing I hate more than hey key standard are bolt heads that are so shallow you strip them by design.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Octopuss said:


> I have two sets of keys from Wera, those are awesome, but the bits set isn't as good. The bits are perfectly fine for good bolts/screws, but it's when you run into low quality stuff problems arise.
> 
> Btw what's better, steel or titanium? I don't care about weight (it's just bolts), but I want no compromises strength that's as much resistant to stripping as possible.
> 
> P.S. The only thing I hate more than hey key standard are bolt heads that are so shallow you strip them by design.


All dimensions being equal, steel bolts are stronger.
=sParty


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Sparticus said:


> I don't hate either one. What I hate is half the bike this and the other half that.
> Standardize PLEASE, bicycle industry! One way or the other.
> I know, I know -- ain't gonna happen. SHM
> =sParty


How about..









Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## Octopuss (May 30, 2020)

Octopuss said:


> Damn, the handlebar clamp bolts are made from Chinesium or something. I haven't even removed the clamp twice yet and one of the bolts is already half stripped. The heads are really thin-walled too.
> I need to find stronger replacement.
> Does anyone know the dimensions of these things? I bet they are pretty standard, but I don't want to risk taking them out at this point.
> 
> Also *I HATE HEX KEY*!!! Why isn't everything torx by now?



 *Matt Keon* (Hayes Performance Systems)
These are M4 x 0.7 with a 18mm shank length


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

romulin said:


> How about..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At least have them alternating. Zero effort


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## Lionel_Hutz (Dec 8, 2021)

Octopuss said:


> Damn, the handlebar clamp bolts are made from Chinesium or something. I haven't even removed the clamp twice yet and one of the bolts is already half stripped. The heads are really thin-walled too.
> I need to find stronger replacement.
> Does anyone know the dimensions of these things? I bet they are pretty standard, but I don't want to risk taking them out at this point.
> 
> Also *I HATE HEX KEY*!!! Why isn't everything torx by now?


Yeah, the clamp bolts are appalling. Basically disposable quality. Hayes sent me some backups when I asked.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

These things have been in and out at least 8 times due to bar swaps, etc. Loosened up and retightened with multi-tools on the trail on multiple occasions as well. So far, the worst damage is the anodizing is worn off. What do you guys do to these bolts?


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

006_007 said:


> At least have them alternating. Zero effort


Well those 3 with hex were stripped threads, had to drill them 1mm larger thread. That's why those big bolts 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## dsweet3 (5 mo ago)

Octopuss said:


> Is anyone using Galfer pads with A4s?
> I am curious whether the purple ones might be better than the standard ones, compared to standard Hayes. Just going by the little "graphs" the purple pads should be a nobrainer (same performance but more durability), but...
> 
> (I intentionally leave the green pads out of the discussion as those have a little different use case in my eyes.)


I just ran through a set of Galfer Pro pads on my A4's. Good power and modulation as compared to the sintered Hayes pads and a bit quieter under normal operation, but only got 500 dry miles (~150k feet of descending) out of them. I got 2-3x longer life (with wet riding too) out of the stock sintered pads so probably won't go with Galfer again unfortunately.


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## hothb (May 20, 2015)

Late to teh party here but can't seem to find a straight answer...will the HS2 SRAM rotor work with the Dominions?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I've run 2mm Galfers, they were a bit tight but worked fine.


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## dsweet3 (5 mo ago)

hothb said:


> Late to teh party here but can't seem to find a straight answer...will the HS2 SRAM rotor work with the Dominions?


Haven't tried them myself, but this Lost Co video uses them in the build and in the comment section he says they took some extra effort to align perfectly but worked fine.


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## Big Fil (Nov 5, 2014)

Got some new T4s installed and been riding them for a couple of weeks. Not sure if anyone else has gotten these yet but noticed that they didn't come with sintered pads, only the semi-metallic ones in the box for both the front and rear. Hayes literature on their site eludes to both being included. Contacted customer service which was very helpful and sent out a set of sintered pads each.

Been loving the the feel of the brakes but one thing that i started noticing was a metallic squeak/slight screech from the rear brake. It seems to happen when when a little more force is applied to the rear brake but before locking up the brake completely. I thought I heard some people say they hear a squeak after a while in the lever from dust and dirt that can be alleviated with a little dab of oil but what i'm hearing definattely seems to be coming from the caliper/rotor area. The front does not seem to make the noise. 

Anyone else experience this and have any ideas what is causing this? It's not like a the noise i've experienced from contaminated/wet/SRAM howling style noise.


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## Captramrod01 (Oct 11, 2011)

hothb said:


> Late to teh party here but can't seem to find a straight answer...will the HS2 SRAM rotor work with the Dominions?


I've run dominions with CL HS2 rotors. Works fine.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I went w the Hayes rotors, ordered them directly from Hayes as most online shops were out of stock. They come in plastic bags and they just stuffed em in a bubble pack!, shocked they weren't bent to hell. Both of em were a little warped but I got them trued up, and they are running drag free at the moment.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

dsweet3 said:


> I just ran through a set of Galfer Pro pads on my A4's. Good power and modulation as compared to the sintered Hayes pads and a bit quieter under normal operation, but only got 500 dry miles (~150k feet of descending) out of them. I got 2-3x longer life (with wet riding too) out of the stock sintered pads so probably won't go with Galfer again unfortunately.


They said that the Pro is softer and may wear out faster than their standard compound, so that seems reasonable. The regular compound is about half the price of the Hayes pads so I'm curious about those and will probably order them next. 

I am currently running MTX pads and have the same experience as it sounds like with the Galfer Pro pads, better all around but wore out faster. Not bad all around though.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

How quiet is Hayes semi-metallic pads? 
Is it a reasonable expectation to demand a quiet brake in rain?
I achieved really quiet brake on road bike using Swisstop Disc RS 34. But I wonder, if I can expect the same on mtb.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Hexsense said:


> How quiet is Hayes semi-metallic pads?
> Is it a reasonable expectation to demand a quiet brake in rain?
> I achieved really quiet brake on road bike using Swisstop Disc RS 34. But I wonder, if I can expect the same on mtb.


I only ride hayes full metallic and they NEVER make noises. 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## hothb (May 20, 2015)

So seems like its best to just go with the Hayes rotors. Bummer there is no 220.


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

romulin said:


> I only ride hayes full metallic and they NEVER make noises.
> 
> Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


What rotors? Ive had a different experience.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

TraxFactory said:


> What rotors? Ive had a different experience.


Hayes D series.
Not good bed in maybe?
I've also sandpapered them briefly before changing from galfer pads back to hayes

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## mtbdudex (Jan 13, 2020)

hothb said:


> So seems like its best to just go with the Hayes rotors. Bummer there is no 220.


I’m 210 lbs 3 years now been riding my A4’s with 180 rotors. 1 finger effortless stopping power. 
Even 4+ hours into use zero fatigue.

No need larger rotors.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Sorted!.


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

mtbdudex said:


> I’m 210 lbs 3 years now been riding my A4’s with 180 rotors. 1 finger effortless stopping power.
> Even 4+ hours into use zero fatigue.
> 
> No need larger rotors.
> ...


That's great that you don't see a need for larger rotors, but some of us live in areas were you can easily get 3k elev in 10 miles or less (read: steep) and need more brake power.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

EatsDirt said:


> That's great that you don't see a need for larger rotors, but some of us live in areas were you can easily get 3k elev in 10 miles or less (read: steep) and need more brake power.



This. Upon seeing the stats for that ride I wondered why anyone would need 4 piston brakes to begin with.

I regularly do 3000' to 4000' descents, unbroken and non-stop, usually over 5-6 miles. 180mm rotors with T2's have been plenty for me.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

So what are the recommended pad/rotor combos with the A4s?

Galfer Pro/ Galfer Wave?

I followed the new Hayes video last night doing rebleed. I seem to have the same experience. Lever feels good, but braking performance seems poor and usually end up going to new pads to get it back. Anyone else experience this?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I'm currently running MTX gold pads on Hayes rotors. I've also run them with galfer waves, as well as the stock sintered pads with both rotors. It all works well enough for me. I ended up going back to the Hayes rotors, simply because I had enough of them to cover the wheel sets I use. 

I've also swapped frames in the past week, which meant new hose and thus a pretty significant bleed on the rear, and a trim and bleed on the front. No drop in performance. Did the pads get contaminated in the process?


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

that's been my experience when working on brakes - if you open the hydraulics you have to operate like a surgeon to avoid fluid on the pads or rotors. I take out the pads and wheel first thing and set them aside, work in latex gloves, and THOROUGHLY clean the caliper and surrounding areas with alcohol. Until I was meticulous I was always contaminating the pads. Easy test is just clean the rotor with alcohol and put in brand new pads - does braking performance come back ? 

I have just been using the stock Hayes rotors and sintered pads from day one. My only complaint is if you heat up the brakes and then stop for a breather, they will squeal for a little bit until they heat back up (like 20 seconds of trail riding). Its a weird phenomenon but no big deal. Rest of the time they are quiet - even in the wet they seem to squeal less than other brakes I've had and then only until they heat up.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

I'm trying different calipers on my new build.
A4 front and T2 rear. Rear caliper is 14g lighter than front but weight is not the big reason I mix caliper. I just want to test them out and compare.

So far, I think I don't recommend mixing caliper just because the lever throw aren't equal. 2 piston T2 has shorter lever throw before pad touch the rotor than 4 piston A4, like 20% shorter.
It's weird to have rear brake lever get firm earlier than the front. Power feel similar. But 4 piston modulate easier with its longer lever throw.

For those that don't like A4 for its long lever throw. Maybe consider A2 or T2 calipers.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Hexsense said:


> I'm trying different calipers on my new build.
> A4 front and T2 rear. Rear caliper is 14g lighter than front but weight is not the big reason I mix caliper. I just want to test them out and compare.
> 
> So far, I think I don't recommend mixing caliper just because the lever throw aren't equal. 2 piston T2 has shorter lever throw before pad touch the rotor than 4 piston A4, like 20% shorter.
> ...


Is the MC/lever assembly different? Or is this just due to the piston ratios?


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## hothb (May 20, 2015)

EatsDirt said:


> That's great that you don't see a need for larger rotors, but some of us live in areas were you can easily get 3k elev in 10 miles or less (read: steep) and need more brake power.



Yea pretty much...I didn't want to sound like a jerk but 3K in 45 miles isn't exactly demanding terrain for brakes...Last night I got 2K climbing for 3 miles...


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> Is the MC/lever assembly different? Or is this just due to the piston ratios?


I use identical lever, from T2 set.
Basically, I bought T2 set front/rear. And an A4 caliper to swap in the front.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Hexsense said:


> I use identical lever, from T2 set.
> Basically, I bought T2 set. And an A4 caliper.


Nice. Thanks! I've been pondering something similar on a hardtail.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

dysfunction said:


> . Did the pads get contaminated in the process?


I set the old pads across the room and have the wheel also away from any splash zone. I spray with isopropyl alchol too. The thing I am not sure about is if any brake fluid is on the piston and it gets on to the back of the pad. Is there any chance that it can get into the pad from the back? 

I did not wipe the rotor down with alchohol this time. It does feel somewhat like pad contamination. it still stops, but not well. new pads bring back expected performance.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I'm still running the stock semi metallic up front trying to wear em out but swapped over to the sintered metallic pads in the back, def more bite!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

ashwinearl said:


> I set the old pads across the room and have the wheel also away from any splash zone. I spray with isopropyl alchol too. The thing I am not sure about is if any brake fluid is on the piston and it gets on to the back of the pad. Is there any chance that it can get into the pad from the back?
> 
> I did not wipe the rotor down with alchohol this time. It does feel somewhat like pad contamination. it still stops, but not well. new pads bring back expected performance.


It's possible, I suppose, for some fluid to get on the face from the caliper during installation. But yea, if new pads resolve it, that's typically my sign. May be worth trying to sand them, and if that doesn't resolve it, bake em.


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

I'm on the fence here but about to pull the trigger. I need some help to finish up the shopping cart. 

I am currently running XT M8120 on my Sentinel. Would I need new adapters, rotors, and matchmaker kits for left/right to make the swap plug & play?


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Kristian94568 said:


> I'm on the fence here but about to pull the trigger. I need some help to finish up the shopping cart.
> 
> I am currently running XT M8120 on my Sentinel. Would I need new adapters, rotors, and matchmaker kits for left/right to make the swap plug & play?


1) Adapter, yes.
2) Rotor, maybe later. Mine works fine with Sram Centerline X.
3) match maker on the right side: yes.
match maker on the left side: maybe. Because Hayes doesn't make a left side one. So you may have to use another right side matchmaker which may put your dropper/suspension remote in a weird spot, depend on which dropper it is. I found One Up dropper remote to fit right on Hayes matchmaker adapter.
But a better solution is possibly to just get 22mm clamp for your remote and don't combine it with the brake lever clamp.


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

Hexsense said:


> 1) Adapter, yes.
> 2) Rotor, maybe later. Mine works fine with Sram Centerline X.
> 3) match maker on the right side: yes.
> match maker on the left side: maybe. Because Hayes doesn't make a left side one. So you may have to use another right side matchmaker which may put your dropper/suspension remote in a weird spot, depend on which dropper it is. I found One Up dropper remote to fit right on Hayes matchmaker adapter.
> But a better solution is possibly to just get 22mm clamp for your remote and don't combine it with the brake lever clamp.


Right on. Thank you! Hayes Matchmaker for the XT shifter and I believe the Magura Shiftmix will fit for the left side. I also have a OneUp dropper w. lever.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Magura Shiftmix does fit but doesn't fit quite right. I had to grind them a bit for my Dominion T2 lever.

I end up just using right side Hayes Sram matchmaker adapter instead. It put OneUp remote (V2) in quite a good spot.
PS. buy just OneUp remote. No OneUp adapter needed.


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## ipedalhard (Apr 25, 2021)

Kristian94568 said:


> I'm on the fence here but about to pull the trigger. I need some help to finish up the shopping cart.
> 
> I am currently running XT M8120 on my Sentinel. Would I need new adapters, rotors, and matchmaker kits for left/right to make the swap plug & play?


I made the switch from XT M8120 to Hayes Dominion A4 last month. Soooo worth it! I liked the XT's, but now realize I didn't understand what it means to truly modulate the brakes. I can attack sandy loose corners with more confidence as well as steep rock rolls. After selling my XTs it was ~$200 upgrade all in, but brakes are a game changer component on a bike in my opinion


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

ipedalhard said:


> I made the switch from XT M8120 to Hayes Dominion A4 last month. Soooo worth it! I liked the XT's, but now realize I didn't understand what it means to truly modulate the brakes. I can attack sandy loose corners with more confidence as well as steep rock rolls. After selling my XTs it was ~$200 upgrade all in, but brakes are a game changer component on a bike in my opinion


Thanks for chiming in! Yes my plan was to sell my XTs once I confirm that I love the Hayes. Think I'll pull the trigger tomorrow AM


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I had the full Shimano SLX brakes/shifter/dropper remote, went with Wolftooth I-spec clamps for the shifter and remote when I switched to these brakes, not sure about your One up remote tho.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

CRC had a really great sale on A2s, so I picked these up for my Singlespeed.
Looking forward to comparing them to the A4s currently on my Ripmo.


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## Ordinarybikes (May 28, 2006)

Has anyone had any issues with their brake pads rattling around inside the caliper on the A4? I've tried to bend the arms on the pad spring to increase tension. I've swapped between both sets of pads that are included with the brakeset, but I am still getting a lot of noise from my rear brake. You can take the pad spring and grab the tab that the brake pad retaining bolt goes through and wiggle it up and down. Got any ideas?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Ordinarybikes said:


> Has anyone had any issues with their brake pads rattling around inside the caliper on the A4? I've tried to bend the arms on the pad spring to increase tension. I've swapped between both sets of pads that are included with the brakeset, but I am still getting a lot of noise from my rear brake. You can take the pad spring and grab the tab that the brake pad retaining bolt goes through and wiggle it up and down. Got any ideas?


I did at one point, I made it a lot better by increasing spring tension- not by making the "v" wider, but by using a hex key and some needle-nose pliers to make the V into a U, and then spreading the arms wider from there.


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## Big Fil (Nov 5, 2014)

Ordinarybikes said:


> Has anyone had any issues with their brake pads rattling around inside the caliper on the A4? I've tried to bend the arms on the pad spring to increase tension. I've swapped between both sets of pads that are included with the brakeset, but I am still getting a lot of noise from my rear brake. You can take the pad spring and grab the tab that the brake pad retaining bolt goes through and wiggle it up and down. Got any ideas?


Same issue here but only with the T4s. With the stock semi-metallic lightweight pads I had no rattle. As soon as I put the sintered pads in my normally dead silent bike sounds like it’s falling apart. I tried spreading the spring legs with no luck and even swapping over the springs from the semi-metallic pads that were silent and same issue. For my last ride I ended up throwing the semi-metallics just to bring back the silence.

Dominion T4 sintered pad rattle


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## mtnwill (May 11, 2018)

Ordinarybikes said:


> Has anyone had any issues with their brake pads rattling around inside the caliper on the A4? I've tried to bend the arms on the pad spring to increase tension. I've swapped between both sets of pads that are included with the brakeset, but I am still getting a lot of noise from my rear brake. You can take the pad spring and grab the tab that the brake pad retaining bolt goes through and wiggle it up and down. Got any ideas?


I haven't found the spring technique to be very effective. Usually the rattles becomes less noticeable with dirt/brake dust build up. One thing I do, and I wouldn't particularly recommend, is apply a very thin layer of disc brake quiet (CRC or Permatex) to the back of the pads. I let it sit for 24-48 hours to dry and it leaves a rubber like layer that completely stops the pads from rattling. The first time I tried this, I applied too much and had to spend extra time cleaning the calipers with IPA when changing the pads. I haven't had issues with the very thin layer, and it's effective, but I've only been trying it this summer.


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## nonameguy (Apr 29, 2021)

Have anyone tried magura rotors on their a4? Magura rotors are almost half the price of the hayes rotor and is a bit thicker so it will better right? From images it look like the hayes rotor have more surface than magura but is just photo. Can anyone confirm?


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## Ordinarybikes (May 28, 2006)

I like using the Sram HS2 rotors...


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## Ernn11 (4 mo ago)

nonameguy said:


> Have anyone tried magura rotors on their a4? Magura rotors are almost half the price of the hayes rotor and is a bit thicker so it will better right? From images it look like the hayes rotor have more surface than magura but is just photo. Can anyone confirm?


I run the Magura rotors and they've been just fine. Not a noticeable difference in performance or anything like that (but were on sale for $20).


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Does anyone run aftermarket rotors and after market pads? From what I am seeing aftermarket rotors, like Galfter, HS2, Magura are thicker than stock Hayes. Aftermarket pads, like Galfer and MTX seem slightly thicker than stock hayes pads.

Is it a pick one or the other? I haven't tried both, aftermarket rotors and after market pads, but think I'd be challenged to get them to spin drag free. With one or the other, think drag free is more realistic.

If the choice is down to one or the other: after market rotors or aftermarket pads, which do you think makes the most difference.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Galfers and MTX Gold


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Don't think anything can beat the €/km of descent of the metallic hayes pads.
The sum of this thread suggests that these brakes work with whatever rotor 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Do the semi-metallic pads smell more often for anyone else. After hard descents my brakes reek (I know the answer is get off them, but like I need to be on them, and that's the point of using A4s). I don't notice this with any other brakes/pads (Shimano, Galfer Green, SRAM, TRP), but my Hayes seem like they "burn" easier.

There generally isn't a loss in performance (except my levers pump up - which I assume is air), they just reek.

Also what's the generally experience like going from the semi-metallic to the sintered pad? Which would you run at a bikepark (Northstar).


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

cassieno said:


> Do the semi-metallic pads smell more often for anyone else. After hard descents my brakes reek (I know the answer is get off them, but like I need to be on them, and that's the point of using A4s). I don't notice this with any other brakes/pads (Shimano, Galfer Green, SRAM, TRP), but my Hayes seem like they "burn" easier.
> 
> There generally isn't a loss in performance (except my levers pump up - which I assume is air), they just reek.
> 
> Also what's the generally experience like going from the semi-metallic to the sintered pad? Which would you run at a bikepark (Northstar).


Northstar = Sintered.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

nonameguy said:


> Have anyone tried magura rotors on their a4? Magura rotors are almost half the price of the hayes rotor and is a bit thicker so it will better right? From images it look like the hayes rotor have more surface than magura but is just photo. Can anyone confirm?


I'm on the 220 Magura (Storm I believe simi vertical slots) the brakes work great.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

For sure the right call.

I broke them in on a blue trail and they were terrifying. However, once I got my 50 stops they grabbed nicely and I never had any real issues with them


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## hothb (May 20, 2015)

Cerberus75 said:


> I'm on the 220 Magura (Storm I believe simi vertical slots) the brakes work great.


what post mounts?


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## Gnougat (Aug 17, 2021)

Anyone tried ordering a single replacement master cylinder from Hayes before? Seemed way too easy to cross thread the MC's bleed port using Hayes' own bleed kit's fitting.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Gnougat said:


> Anyone tried ordering a single replacement master cylinder from Hayes before? Seemed way too easy to cross thread the MC's bleed port using Hayes' own bleed kit's fitting.


I've broken one in a crash, got it from a distributor (Switzerland).
No problems with crossthreading, but I ist sram syringes 

Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I tried Magura levers and I stripped them immediately using the magura bleed kit. Havent had any issues with Hayes.


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## Gnougat (Aug 17, 2021)

romulin said:


> I've broken one in a crash, got it from a distributor (Switzerland).
> No problems with crossthreading, but I ist sram syringes
> 
> Odoslané z M1 pomocou Tapatalku


Just ordered a new A2 front brake off CRC to cannibalize the MC off of 'cos it's on sale at half price, but I'm curious how much your distributor charged you for a replacement master cylinder?


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## fftfk (Nov 26, 2020)

OK - I've read the past 15 pages and it seems like a harder question to answer than it should be. What is everyone using for center lock wheels? I ordered the Hayes rotors assuming I could use an adapter but the only adapter I keep seeing is the DT Swiss one which indicates it can only be used for 160 mm rotors.

I'm fine with returning the rotors and going with SRAM HS2 or Magura rotors but does the Hayes brake adapter not work then? I read something about 200 mm vs 203 and the brake adapter not working.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I am using sram hs2 which doesn't answer your question. But they are great rotors.


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## fftfk (Nov 26, 2020)

cassieno said:


> I am using sram hs2 which doesn't answer your question. But they are great rotors.


Did you need a different brake adapter than the Hayes brand?


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I am using centerlock rotors.


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## fftfk (Nov 26, 2020)

cassieno said:


> I am using centerlock rotors.


I meant the adapter for the brake caliper. These things - IS Mount Brackets


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Oh yeah, I am using the hayes adapter and missing out on 3mm of pad contact.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm using Shimano Centerlock adapter. 









SHIMANO DEORE Disc Brake Rotor Adapter (6-bolt rotor to CENTER LOCK hub) | SHIMANO BIKE-EU


SHIMANO's SM-RTAD05 disc brake rotor adaptor is used for installing a 6-bolt disc brake rotor to CENTER LOCK hub. The adapter features a reliable anti-loosen plate for secure braking in all riding conditions.




bike.shimano.com





It's good for 203mm rotors as well. Hayes rotors work well IME.


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## Big Fil (Nov 5, 2014)

cassieno said:


> Oh yeah, I am using the hayes adapter and missing out on 3mm of pad contact.
> View attachment 2003129
> 
> View attachment 2003128



I think you'd only be missing out on 1.5mm since the rotors are 200mm vs the 203mm of the Hayes but that measurement is diameter. Your caliper only from the center out which if would be 1.5mm difference. Unless I'm thinking about this all wrong


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## mtnwill (May 11, 2018)

Just thought I'd share these 3d print files, for anyone who has access to a 3d printer and might be interested in an adapter:





__





Printables







www.printables.com





I wasn't keen on spending $60 for the adapter. Nothing fancy, but they've worked for about a month now.


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## Blown Jammer (3 mo ago)

Do you need the official Hayes bleed kit to bleed these or will my sram kit work?


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## nonameguy (Apr 29, 2021)

Blown Jammer said:


> Do you need the official Hayes bleed kit to bleed these or will my sram kit work?


I think it might work because the thread as I remember is the same in both of bleed kits. Plus both are for dot so you don't lose anything if you try it.


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## romulin (Apr 23, 2017)

Blown Jammer said:


> Do you need the official Hayes bleed kit to bleed these or will my sram kit work?


Works great

Odoslané z S59Pro pomocou Tapatalku


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## adurant (May 31, 2019)

dysfunction said:


> I'm currently running MTX gold pads on Hayes rotors. I've also run them with galfer waves, as well as the stock sintered pads with both rotors. It all works well enough for me. I ended up going back to the Hayes rotors, simply because I had enough of them to cover the wheel sets I use.
> 
> I've also swapped frames in the past week, which meant new hose and thus a pretty significant bleed on the rear, and a trim and bleed on the front. No drop in performance. Did the pads get contaminated in the process?


Do the MTX gold have more power or heat resistance compared to the stock sintered pads? Also have you tried the galfer pro pads and if so how do they compare as well? Reason I ask is I've been cooking and discoloring my front 220 mdrp rotor and lose some power with the stock pads when things get that hot. Also occasionally seem to glaze the sintered pads, although a bit of rubbing them together under water seems to restore them.

Thinking I'm going to try one of the galfer shark 223 rotors up front and see if any of their cooling claims are true, figured I may as well bed them in with the best pads as well.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I ran Galfer pro in SRAM and Shimano brakes. They are great, however, they wear significantly faster. I think I was replacing them every three months. But, they just consistently worked with no change in performance. 

I was overheating the stock pads (I think semi-metallic because I am a heavy rear brake dragger with both 180160 and 200/180 rotors). The sintered solved that and once I bedded them in I didn't have any issues with them.


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## nonameguy (Apr 29, 2021)

How long last their stock sintered pads? In km if you can tell


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## adurant (May 31, 2019)

cassieno said:


> I ran Galfer pro in SRAM and Shimano brakes. They are great, however, they wear significantly faster. I think I was replacing them every three months. But, they just consistently worked with no change in performance.
> 
> I was overheating the stock pads (I think semi-metallic because I am a heavy rear brake dragger with both 180160 and 200/180 rotors). The sintered solved that and once I bedded them in I didn't have any issues with them.


Yea to clarify when I say stock pads I was reffering to the metallic/sintered pads which I'm overheating even with a 220 disc. Granted one of the trails I ride drops 2000feet in 1.5mi and its slow tight and techy the entire way so you're never off the brakes for more than a couple seconds.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

nonameguy said:


> How long last their stock sintered pads? In km if you can tell


In 300 miles I never wore them out. However, it's going to be highly dependent on your trails and how you brake. If you spend all your time shuttling and in lift assisted parks it will be much lower.


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## Ktom300 (Feb 29, 2012)

My A4's shipped out today but after 52 pages I still can't figure out if I made a mistake


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## Ernn11 (4 mo ago)

I've had my A4s awhile and quite like them. The lever is soo smooth compared to the Guides I had previously. 

One thing I will say is that the bleeding process was a bit frustrating. The first bleed I just could not get right, but after several attempts got it good enough. I just re-bled again months later and immediately after the bleed, the lever felt spongey. I left it over night and rode the next day, and the sponginess was gone and the lever feels good. 

I have the Hayes bleed kit, and I imagine most of the issues I had prior were user error.

I've also crashed several times (a couple hard slides on the lever themselves) and they look scraped up, but never bent or caused any issues.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Ktom300 said:


> My A4's shipped out today but after 52 pages I still can't figure out if I made a mistake


You didn't really. They are good brakes. As long as you get the bleed right.

I am not a fan of the bleed process because it gets dot fluid more places than SRAM and the finish of the parts isn't as good as I expected it to be. The master cylinders were matte (ish) and the shifter adapters were shiny black. The faceplate on my master cylinders were not bolted down correctly and leaked a ton on first bleed. This was fixed by tightening them. I also figured out how to bleed them without getting as much fluid all over the place.

The lever feel and adjustment is good. They are beefy units.

I prefer my DHR EVOs, but I had to buy $110 lever blades to set them up exactly how I wanted them.

However, I would take the Hayes any day over Shimano or SRAM brakes. They are much better. If TRP made it so you get the lever blades closer to the grips on their EVO line of brakes TRP would stand out as the better option to me. But, they don't. And it's crazy to have to spend so much to get the lever blades in just a tad more.


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## Ktom300 (Feb 29, 2012)

cassieno said:


> You didn't really. They are good brakes. As long as you get the bleed right.
> 
> I am not a fan of the bleed process because it gets dot fluid more places than SRAM and the finish of the parts isn't as good as I expected it to be. The master cylinders were matte (ish) and the shifter adapters were shiny black. The faceplate on my master cylinders were not bolted down correctly and leaked a ton on first bleed. This was fixed by tightening them. I also figured out how to bleed them without getting as much fluid all over the place.
> 
> ...


Great feedback, I looked hard at TRP but the price for everything with rotors was like $200 more. I actually prefer a lever closer to the bar so hoping these work out.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't really end up with fluid all over the place, I have two sets and I've bled them several times (they've been on multiple bikes even). The finish did change mid, sometime in 21 I think? I suspect that's a supply chain issue. The older set I have are a much nicer fit/finish. They remain, most importantly, the best brakes I have used.

Oh and the MTX Golds, a bit more power (maybe?) but the control seems smoother.. at least I think. I've run them for some time now, so it's hard to remember.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

I just snagged the deal on the A4's from Hayes. Going from 2 pot XTs @ 180/160 to 4 pots 200/180. Sick of arm pump, wandering bite points, leaking reservoirs, etc. Pretty excited to get them on my bike.


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## Roto599 (Jan 3, 2010)

Hi, I have A4s on both of my bikes. They have been okay for the 1.5 yrs I’ve had them, but am continuously struggling with sticky pistons (always one piston moves less willingly than the other). Also pads not retracting quite enough. Have tried everything except full rebuild. Cannot get the pistons to move equally with the ”one sided” end of the bleed block, no matter how many times I do it.
Have put a bit DOT4 on the pistons to lube them also. Have bled and two stroke bled. And this has been the case at least from almost new. Any more ideas except full rebuild? Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Why would you put DOT4 fluid on them?

Sounds like you need to fully rebuild. I had some luck use the open end of the bleed block. I pumped them out and pushed them back many many times. And it made them more consistent. But, mine were never a hard stick. One just seemed lazier than the other. A bleed didn't impact their movement at all. My friend had his start doing that from new and didn't want to rebuild them, so he just moved on.


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## Roto599 (Jan 3, 2010)

See post #313 and some posts before that re using DOT4 as lubricant. 

Just found this Hayes video: 




Have not used IPA to clean the pistons. Will give that a go. I have used the service end of the block and done the drill 20 times in a row, but one piston still is lazy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ktom300 (Feb 29, 2012)

Got a pretty good deal on my a4's ($496 shipped w/ rotors and bleed kit) from Hayes direct. 
First off these brakes look great and are well built. They even come with a spare olive to cut the hoses, and spare pads. I also ordered D4 rotors and the pro blead kit.
Couple things to note. I've worked on Shimano and SRAM stuff and now these. Shimano is still the easiest to bleed but they need constant bowl bleeds to keep the bite point constant. SRAM are pretty run of the mill to bleed. 
1. The bleed process is pretty simple but these do tend to release a lot more fluid than I've ever seen with Shimano or SRAM. Clean it up with IPA
2. The 2 piece olive can end up getting crimped without noticing the cable isn't fully inserted. Luckily I ordered spares which are a new 1 piece design. The barb presses in pretty easily.
3. The cross-hair adjustment is awesome. I'd consider doing this DIY mod to any brand brake just to simplify setup.
4. The pads going in from the bottom is a little funky for sure since I'm not used to it. I suppose if you're pushing the pistons back in for a pad change then removing the caliper is probably a good idea anyway
5. The lever pull is holy $hit, like butter. Reach adjustment is clean. Comparing to my Code RS on the other bike now I don't even want to ride that bike anymore. 🙁
6. I only have one easy ride on them, bedding in was easy. 
7. Power and modulation are awesome, I'll have more feedback/comparison after another ride with more heavy braking. 

Overall I'm super stoked, hoping these go on sale again so I can ditch my codes on the other bike but it might be a while. 
TRP's were really on my radar but the best deal I could find was $490 without rotors or bleed kit so basically another $150. Maybe next time but I don't know now


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## Preston (Sep 22, 2005)

I was under the impression that the 2 piece olive was the updated one.

I should probably tell this story - This last time I dis-connected and re-assembled the brake after riding for about a month the hose pulled out of the lever in a steep chute causing a major crash that actually snapped my Scott Ransom in half. 
Its true I did not use a torque wrench on the fitting as I didn't have a crow's fit fitting, but I wrenched it down pretty hard. Its a small fitting so you kind of cross your fingers when putting a lot of oomph into it. 
AFterwards with the hose pulled out I put the torque wrench directly on it and it was under torque albeit without the hose which would obviuously make a difference. 

Part of the point was I was using the old one piece olive and the latest you tube from Hayes said the 2 piece wsa the updated one and I had to wonder if there was a reason they updated it. 

Not the first time by any means I've assembled a brake and have not normally used the torque wrench in the past just given it the muscle. And scary that there wasn't a way to "test" it in a safe environment because as I said I rode the heck out of it for a month before it failed.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

If anyone wondering how good Hayes organic pads are vs others,
I have a reference point by comparing it through MTX red pads which are available in many systems.
MTX red pads have more outright power than Shimano organic pads (tested on Shimano XT brakes). The initial bite isn't increased. Same bite, just more power when pull harder.
Hayes organic pads have noticeably more initial bite and slightly more outright power than MTX red pads (tested on Hayes Dominion A4 caliper).
MTX red is quieter overall though.

It seems, MTX red have relatively low initial bite versus their max power. That makes the pad easier to modulate. However, Dominion A4 are already easy to modulate. So more initial bite isn't a bad thing and the original pad compliment the brake system very well.


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## Ktom300 (Feb 29, 2012)

Preston said:


> I was under the impression that the 2 piece olive was the updated one.
> 
> I should probably tell this story - This last time I dis-connected and re-assembled the brake after riding for about a month the hose pulled out of the lever in a steep chute causing a major crash that actually snapped my Scott Ransom in half.
> Its true I did not use a torque wrench on the fitting as I didn't have a crow's fit fitting, but I wrenched it down pretty hard. Its a small fitting so you kind of cross your fingers when putting a lot of oomph into it.
> ...


That's a scary story actually. My brakes came with the 2 piece olive but I ordered their 10 pack of replacements which are 1 piece. The drawback of the 1 piece is knowing if the barb is fully seated (now I'm 2nd guessing myself).
With the 2 piece if you aren't super careful pushing the cable all the way home before tightening I believe it would come out regardless of torque. I just counted how many threads were visible instead of torqueing to spec. Maybe tug on the cable to make sure it's seated? 
It would be nice if the olive ID was a little smaller for a snug fit on the cable OD. When I trim my bars down I'll probably cut my cables again just to make sure I did everything correct.


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## dotcodotuk (25 d ago)

Hello everyone!

I have been running M8120s on my bikes since I bought them, given that was the stock setup, but am finding them a little random in their braking performance and feel and thinking these Dominion A4s could be a great idea - especially at £99 a set here in the UK from Wiggle/CRC.

Have read through the thread and wanted to double-check a few things about the A4s and some advice that had been offered by various helpful people.

Nobody in the UK seems to have Hayes mounts in stock - are there Dominion-specific Hayes mounts, or would anything from Hayes work? I saw this helpful chart from someone but still cannot find stock of those part #s here.

Someone (forgot who, but will try and find you and name-check) mentioned Hope mounts work well. I have 2021 Fox 38s/Fox 36s on the three bikes I want to run the A4s on, two frames all have PM180 rear and one is PM160. Would I need the HBMH variant, shown on this chart for the 203mm and the HBML for the PM160?

Given I have to get new rotors, I figure I should go straight for the Hayes D-Series as I can get them for £35 a piece. I have seen a few folks recommending the Galfer Wave 2mm discs as well, albeit with some resulting lever travel changes - worth a look or stick with the Hayes stuff?

Plan is 203/203 on the Enduro/Park bike, 203/180 on the Trail and 180/180 on the Hardtail was the plan as that is my Shimano set-up and it works well. Has anyone moving across noticed they needed to go up/down a size due to the A4s being different performance and/or feel?

I run thicker grips than most (33mm Deity Supracush) and noticed a few comments about lever travel with thicker grips - am I going to have problems?

Any idea where I can get the Pro Bleed Kit with the fancy block in it here in the UK? I have nothing in the workshop other than the Shimano stuff, so would like to pick up whatever is the right thing and make sure I get these A4s working perfectly out of the gate.

I am notoriously clumsy when fitting new olives when hoses need to be shortened... where can I pick up spares? Would any Hayes version fit? The Hayes site says these are for anything post-2006, so I am guessing that would be a yes?

Can anyone confirm if they have tried the Magura Shiftmix for their Dominions? I like my shifter and lever where they sit with my M8120s and the Shiftmix 4 seems like an ideal thing...


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I was able to use Shimano mounts. But the caliper was bottomed out against the mount. 

I used the same size rotor. That worked well. 

You should have plenty of adjustment in the lever to get them exactly where you want. 33mm isn't that large.


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## DuncanoMexicano (1 mo ago)

Has anyone actually come up with a definitive solution for the pad rattle on these? I’ve read about stretching the pad springs but then no one seems to follow up that that cured it for them or not? Are there any other measures that can be taken?

First ride on them for me after having them a long time waiting for a new build and the rattle whilst riding sounded like my shock bolts and wheels were loose but eventually traced the noise down to the pads rattling and for confirmation it would not be present when dragging/using brakes.

I have since stretched the spring but there is still some movement present when moved by hand. Will likely be a week before the bike gets ridden properly again for me to confirm if it has taken care of it due to conditions in BC currently but have time to alter anything in the meantime if I should?


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## Ernn11 (4 mo ago)

I've had the same issue on mine since I got them. I stretched both springs and it helped. They are mostly silent now except every once in awhile where I will get a rattle on a ride before it goes away again.


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## Big Fil (Nov 5, 2014)

DuncanoMexicano said:


> Has anyone actually come up with a definitive solution for the pad rattle on these? I’ve read about stretching the pad springs but then no one seems to follow up that that cured it for them or not? Are there any other measures that can be taken?
> 
> First ride on them for me after having them a long time waiting for a new build and the rattle whilst riding sounded like my shock bolts and wheels were loose but eventually traced the noise down to the pads rattling and for confirmation it would not be present when dragging/using brakes.
> 
> I have since stretched the spring but there is still some movement present when moved by hand. Will likely be a week before the bike gets ridden properly again for me to confirm if it has taken care of it due to conditions in BC currently but have time to alter anything in the meantime if I should?


I've been fighting the same issue on my Dominion T4s when running the Metallic pads. Super bad rattle, that like you mentioned, makes it feel like you have a shock or pivot bolt coming loose. Super loud especially when everything else on the bike is dead silent. 

I've tried stretching the pads multiple times and can't get them to be quiet with the metallic pads. However, when I use the semi-metallic T4 aluminum backed pads they are dead quiet. It's a real bummer though because i've never been a fan of semi-metallic/organic pad feel and the awful wear. Lever feel with the metallics is much more direct and doesn't have that slight soft initial contact feel that the organics do.


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## Ktom300 (Feb 29, 2012)

Big Fil said:


> I've been fighting the same issue on my Dominion T4s when running the Metallic pads. Super bad rattle, that like you mentioned, makes it feel like you have a shock or pivot bolt coming loose. Super loud especially when everything else on the bike is dead silent.
> 
> I've tried stretching the pads multiple times and can't get them to be quiet with the metallic pads. However, when I use the semi-metallic T4 aluminum backed pads they are dead quiet. It's a real bummer though because i've never been a fan of semi-metallic/organic pad feel and the awful wear. Lever feel with the metallics is much more direct and doesn't have that slight soft initial contact feel that the organics do.


Have you thought to try a super thin coat of "disc brake quiet" on the backer? It's almost like a silicon adhesive.
I had pretty bad rattle with shimano zee's but so far on the semi metallic pads I hear nothing.


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## Big Fil (Nov 5, 2014)

Ktom300 said:


> Have you thought to try a super thin coat of "disc brake quiet" on the backer? It's almost like a silicon adhesive.
> I had pretty bad rattle with shimano zee's but so far on the semi metallic pads I hear nothing.


No I have heard of disc brake quiet. Who makes that and does it just adhere the pads to the pistons?


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Big Fil said:


> No I have heard of disc brake quiet. Who makes that and does it just adhere the pads to the pistons?


When I read that tip above I googled the product to learn more about it...


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

my levers are a little squeaky anyone know a fix?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

idividebyzero said:


> my levers are a little squeaky anyone know a fix?


A little triflow on the pivots resolved that on mine.


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## Ktom300 (Feb 29, 2012)

Big Fil said:


> No I have heard of disc brake quiet. Who makes that and does it just adhere the pads to the pistons?


So that's the catch, it is an adhesive similar to silicone so it stays rubbery. IF I was going to try this I would use the thinnest possible coating and I'd probably zip tie the lever over night to keep pressure on the backers.
The unknowns are there for sure, like how much float do the pads really need to move in out smoothly? They will be stuck to the pistons so that could be an issue.
The other question is when you pull the pads out you probably want to be mindful of where the pistons are, maybe push them back in first. Lastly you'd want to clean any residue completely before doing the process again.


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## benno_r (Apr 7, 2021)

Did a bit of a search, but couldn't find a definitive answer - is it possible to set the Dominions up with minimal free stroke. I run about 1/2" free stroke (at the tip of the lever) on my SLX (perfect!) and have to try another brake set that can be set up the same. Never seen the Dominions in person to see what the free stroke on them is like to compare.


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## Ktom300 (Feb 29, 2012)

benno_r said:


> Did a bit of a search, but couldn't find a definitive answer - is it possible to set the Dominions up with minimal free stroke. I run about 1/2" free stroke (at the tip of the lever) on my SLX (perfect!) and have to try another brake set that can be set up the same. Never seen the Dominions in person to see what the free stroke on them is like to compare.


I haven't tried it but there's an allen in the spot where I would expect free stroke to adjust, not sure if this affects pad pull back? 
Out of the box these have way less free stroke than Code RS and are right there with Shimano but less lever effort


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

So I pulled the trigger on a set of a4 - and just going through this thread remembered that my XT shifter mounts directly to my Shimano XT brakes - what adapter will I need for these to work?

Also am I good sticking with my Shimano rotors? They are quite new and only will replace if it would be a big no no with these brakes.


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## dotcodotuk (25 d ago)

You will need the Magura Shiftmix - can confirm they work with the Dominion clamps, but they have Torx bolts which you can swap for the Hayes' ones. 

Shiftmix 4 is designed for the M8100 range, Shiftmix 1+2 would be for the M8000.

Shimano rotors will be too thin (plenty of people have commented on that in the thread) so you need the Hayes D-Series which are 1.9mm or you could go with the Galfer 2mm variant, but this apparently affects the lever throw - again, a few comments in the thread on that.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

dotcodotuk said:


> You will need the Magura Shiftmix - can confirm they work with the Dominion clamps, but they have Torx bolts which you can swap for the Hayes' ones.
> 
> Shiftmix 4 is designed for the M8100 range, Shiftmix 1+2 would be for the M8000.
> 
> Shimano rotors will be too thin (plenty of people have commented on that in the thread) so you need the Hayes D-Series which are 1.9mm or you could go with the Galfer 2mm variant, but this apparently affects the lever throw - again, a few comments in the thread on that.


Cheers


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## squeakymcgillicuddy (Jan 28, 2016)

dotcodotuk said:


> Shimano rotors will be too thin (plenty of people have commented on that in the thread) so you need the Hayes D-Series which are 1.9mm or you could go with the Galfer 2mm variant, but this apparently affects the lever throw - again, a few comments in the thread on that.


I'm surprised the pistons don't have an extra 0.2mm of travel to spare for the Shimano rotors. But I'll take it as an excuse to upgrade to Galfers.

As far as the Galfers effecting lever throw, anyone kind enough to summarize? 53 pages is a lot to sift through.


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## tuskenraider (Sep 9, 2012)

squeakymcgillicuddy said:


> I'm surprised the pistons don't have an extra 0.2mm of travel to spare for the Shimano rotors. But I'll take it as an excuse to upgrade to Galfers.
> 
> As far as the Galfers effecting lever throw, anyone kind enough to summarize? 53 pages is a lot to sift through.


If you know how to manipulate the bite point of your brakes, the XT rotors will be fine. You'll either try to do a little bit of overfill on the bleed or pull the wheels out and give the lever(s) a pull or two to expand the pistons closer together to account for the thinner rotor. Doing this might not give you consistency between the front and rear brake engagement if you're bad at it though. As far as Galfers, it seems they spec thicker, than you'll just have less room to avoid brake rub in setup and you'll get earlier engagement(which I love).


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## Sinastsa (Dec 22, 2021)

Read a couple old posts in here of project saying they successfully used Shimano and Sram rotors. Would be nice to get a update if they compared them to proper thickness rotors.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I've been running galfers on one wheelset for over a year. It's such a minor deal that one set up, you'll never notice.


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## Ktom300 (Feb 29, 2012)

Sinastsa said:


> Read a couple old posts in here of project saying they successfully used Shimano and Sram rotors. Would be nice to get a update if they compared them to proper thickness rotors.





Sinastsa said:


> Read a couple old posts in here of project saying they successfully used Shimano and Sram rotors. Would be nice to get a update if they compared them to proper thickness rotors.


I think the Shimanos are going to be too thin which will make the dead stroke a lot longer. If you like to run your levers further out then maybe not a big deal. 
Anything in the 1.9-2.00mm thick will probably worth fine, including SRAM and Galfer. Are you trying to save money or you have some spare rotors laying around?


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## Sinastsa (Dec 22, 2021)

Ktom300 said:


> I think the Shimanos are going to be too thin which will make the dead stroke a lot longer. If you like to run your levers further out then maybe not a big deal.
> Anything in the 1.9-2.00mm thick will probably worth fine, including SRAM and Galfer. Are you trying to save money or you have some spare rotors laying around?


I have a new set of RT86 and some Centerlocks sitting in the parts bin. Looking for a set of brakes to upgrade my G2 RSC.


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## Ktom300 (Feb 29, 2012)

Sinastsa said:


> I have a new set of RT86 and some Centerlocks sitting in the parts bin. Looking for a set of brakes to upgrade my G2 RSC.


These are a huge upgrade from G2 RSC, that's what I removed from hardtail. Never got great performance out of the G2's for more than a few rides. 
You can try the Shimano rotors and if the dead stroke is too much then look for some other rotors on PB


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Ktom300 said:


> I think the Shimanos are going to be too thin which will make the dead stroke a lot longer. If you like to run your levers further out then maybe not a big deal.
> Anything in the 1.9-2.00mm thick will probably worth fine, including SRAM and Galfer. Are you trying to save money or you have some spare rotors laying around?


Disc brakes compensate for pad wear. As the pads wear the pistons advance in the caliper bores maintaining pad to rotor clearance. If pistons fail to advance the pad to rotor clearance will increase causing more lever travel. Where am I going w/ this? A disc brake sytem doesn't care if the rotors are 1.8 or 2mm. The pads are thinner w/ wear same as a thinner rotor. If your pads wear and the lever throw increases it time to inspect piston seals. As long as the piston seals don't pop out of the bores use whatever rotor you want.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Are there any limit of how far out before piston stop advancing?
Providing that Hayes rotors are thicker and should be replaced by 1.75mm, would they allow piston to move so far out for a worn pad and worn Shimano rotor which can be 1.5mm thick?


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## Ktom300 (Feb 29, 2012)

keen said:


> Disc brakes compensate for pad wear. As the pads wear the pistons advance in the caliper bores maintaining pad to rotor clearance. If pistons fail to advance the pad to rotor clearance will increase causing more lever travel. Where am I going w/ this? A disc brake sytem doesn't care if the rotors are 1.8 or 2mm. The pads are thinner w/ wear same as a thinner rotor. If your pads wear and the lever throw increases it time to inspect piston seals. As long as the piston seals don't pop out of the bores use whatever rotor you want.


Yeah I see what you're saying and that makes sense, I still feel like the system has limitations at the extremes but maybe not


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Are there any limit of how far out before piston stop advancing?
> Providing that Hayes rotors are thicker and should be replaced by 1.75mm, would they allow piston to move so far out for a worn pad and worn Shimano rotor which can be 1.5mm thick?


Pistons will advance until they pop out of the bores. If you wanted to figure out how far remove a piston and measure from the piston face to the o-ring x2.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

keen said:


> Disc brakes compensate for pad wear. As the pads wear the pistons advance in the caliper bores maintaining pad to rotor clearance. If pistons fail to advance the pad to rotor clearance will increase causing more lever travel. Where am I going w/ this? A disc brake sytem doesn't care if the rotors are 1.8 or 2mm. The pads are thinner w/ wear same as a thinner rotor. If your pads wear and the lever throw increases it time to inspect piston seals. As long as the piston seals don't pop out of the bores use whatever rotor you want.


Not sure if you are accounting for all the variables for this to be an actual true statement. If all brakes were designed the same, then yes. But different brakes have different leverage ratios that advance the pistons at different rates/distances, so that's where rotor thickness can affect the lever throw of a brake.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> Not sure if you are accounting for all the variables for this to be an actual true statement. If all brakes were designed the same, then yes. But different brakes have different leverage ratios that advance the pistons at different rates/distances, so that's where rotor thickness can affect the lever throw of a brake.


When you replace your brake pads you have depressed both pistons back into the caliper bores. When you stroke the lever the pistons advance and the pads hit the rotor. Doesn't matter how thick the rotor is the pads keep moving. When pads wear or even the rotor you have the same scenario pistons advance to the rotor. Obviously pads don't sit tight against the rotor when you release the lever the piston seal design allows for some piston roll back. Want to prove this w/ a physical test. Remove your wheel and find a flat washer thinner than your rotor depress the lever in single stroke until the washer just slide in tight. Now the lever throw will be the same as w/ a fat bleed block, your original rotor or the thin washer.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

keen said:


> When you replace your brake pads you have depressed both pistons back into the caliper bores. When you stroke the lever the pistons advance and the pads hit the rotor. Doesn't matter how thick the rotor is the pads keep moving. When pads wear or even the rotor you have the same scenario pistons *advance to the rotor*. Obviously pads don't sit tight against the rotor when you release the lever the piston seal design allows for *some piston roll back*. Want to prove this w/ a physical test. Remove your wheel and find a flat washer thinner than your rotor depress the lever in single stroke until the washer just slide in tight. Now the lever throw will be the same as w/ a fat bleed block, your original rotor or the thin washer.


Again, that is an overly simplified view of how brakes work. I've highlighted the variables that change from manufacturer to manufacturer.


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## dotcodotuk (25 d ago)

dotcodotuk said:


> You will need the Magura Shiftmix - can confirm they work with the Dominion clamps, but they have Torx bolts which you can swap for the Hayes' ones.
> 
> Shiftmix 4 is designed for the M8100 range, Shiftmix 1+2 would be for the M8000.


Quoting myself, but can now confirm that both the SM 1+2 and the 4 will work with either variant of the Shimano shifter and/or dropper levers.

Will test out how that all looks IRL over the weekend and report back with pictures, in case anyone wants to know!

In the meantime... any guesses which one will work 'best' out of these lot? #3 has a slight bend in it, presumably for better fitment with the I-SPEC EV.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

dotcodotuk said:


> Quoting myself, but can now confirm that both the SM 1+2 and the 4 will work with either variant of the Shimano shifter and/or dropper levers.
> 
> Will test out how that all looks IRL over the weekend and report back with pictures, in case anyone wants to know!
> 
> ...


Still just want a separate clamp. All these adapter options are getting more confusing than BB standards


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> Not sure if you are accounting for all the variables for this to be an actual true statement. If all brakes were designed the same, then yes. But different brakes have different leverage ratios that advance the pistons at different rates/distances, so that's where rotor thickness can affect the lever throw of a brake.


Rotor thickness doesn't affect brake throw. Brake throw is set by leverage and roll-back.

I have run Dominions with new rotors and old worn out rotors for ~5 seasons now. The lever stroke, once settled, is always the same.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

idividebyzero said:


> my levers are a little squeaky anyone know a fix?


Dab of grease on the plunger ball once you've removed the lever. Just a tiny amount as you don't want to spread grease into the brake bore.


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## Lionel_Hutz (Dec 8, 2021)

Sinastsa said:


> Read a couple old posts in here of project saying they successfully used Shimano and Sram rotors. Would be nice to get a update if they compared them to proper thickness rotors.


I've used both Shimano and SRAM rotors, on Hayes A4 and A2 setups. Recently the A4 started dragging due to worn pads (wasn't enough return travel on the pistons) but a new set of pads fixed it. The tolerances on the Dominions strike me as pretty tight but I haven't had any permanent problems with either set of rotors.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm finally getting these mounted on my bike. I'll experiment myself, but what compound do you think I should start with for pads? I typically run full sintered pads, but I also moved from 180/160 to 203/180 rotors so slightly worried about too much bite. I don't weigh a ton (155) but my typical rides include about 2000-2500' of descending. 

Does anyone run one of each? I assume the pistons compensate for uneven pad wear?


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

The sintered will feel like too much bite until the wear in. I would use the stock pads. You can always put in the sintered.


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