# Talk to me about skiing



## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Subtitle: Karma bites me in the ass.

By which I mean, any boyfriend would have to accept the biking obsession. Granted, I'm not on the bike SO much that it would cause a problem, but the occasional epic vacation or weekend trip would have to be understood. 

As luck would have it, I meet a biker. But now he's hanging his bike up for the winter to become a hardcore skier. Meaning, every single weekend. :nonod: 

He wants to teach me, and I'm willing to try it, but I'll be starting from scratch. Help! 

- What clothing do you recommend, and what brands? Gloves, hats, pants, jacket....

- Better yet, can skiing stuff double as winter biking stuff? Or vice-versa? Are Smith sunglasses okay?

- Is this going to put me in the poorhouse?? :eekster: Although I don't expect this to become another obsession.


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## IttyBittyBetty (Aug 11, 2005)

*Yes - you will be poor!*

I mountain bike and ski, as does my BF. The mountain biking part came _before_ we met and was a firm criterion for any guy I would date. I have been a skier and snowboarder for years, but it wasn't that big of a component in my life, until my BF and I moved to Colorado two years ago. Now, skiing is as big a deal for us as mountain biking. It's really nice to have something new to look forward to. In the fall, we get psyched about getting the skis out and in the spring we get excited about hitting the trails on the bikes.

We telemark ski, so it's especially good for off-season training and keeps my glutes, quads, and thighs in tip top shape. Skiing, and any cold weather sport for that matter, are not enjoyable if you don't have the right clothes. And by that, I clothes that keep you warm, are easy to move in and don't get you overheated. I wear a lot of Arteryx, Marmot, Mammot, Cloudveil, Columbia, Salolmon, Outdoor Research, Isis and Go-Lite stuff. REI also makes some nice winter outerwear. Essential items include:

*Ski Pants* - Look for something that's large enough to accommodate thick long underwear; vents are nice too. Nothing you have for riding will substitute unfortunately.
*Jacket/Shell* - Look for something waterproof and windproof (or at least highly resistant to water and wind) and breathable. I like a hood myself for really cold days. Make sure the jacket is big enough to wear other layers underneath. It's possible, but doubtful, that a riding jacket will cut it.
*Soft Shell or Thick Fleece with Wind Resistance *- This can be worn alone on nice days or under the Jacket described above. You might have something for riding that doubles here.
*Warm Long Sleeved Shirts* - No Cotton allowed. I like Coolmax for nice days and something made of wool on chilly days (Smartwool, Icebreaker, etc). Some of these tops work great for winter riding too.
*Long Underwear *- I have both thick pair and thin ones, depending on how cold it is.
*Socks* - I like ski-specific in a wicking material or wool. Make sure they are comfortable with your boots. I don't wear more than one pair, but my boots are custom molded, which makes them a lot warmer.
*Scull Cap* - For under your helmet (you might already have one for riding). You _are_ going to wear a helmet, right??? I also have a balaclava and a gorilla mask for really cold days, but you can do without those if you have a neck gator.
*Gloves/Mittens* - I wear gloves on warmer days and these expedition mittens on colder days, as my hands get cold. Riding gloves will not be warm enough! I also bring those chemical hand warmers with me every time (available at COSTCO for something like $12.00 for 300).

I personally prefer goggles to sunglasses. When it's windy, or snowy glasses are no fun. Save the shades for the beer apres ski.

Then there's the skis themselves! Cha Ching!

But seriously, you can find some deals on clothes at steepandcheap.com, backcountry.com and sierra trading post. You might also find stuff on eBay. If you live in the Front Range, SNAIGRAB might still have some deals.

I don't know your guy, but I recommend you take a lesson from a professional before you ski with your guy, no matter how good he is. It'll be good for your relationship.

Don't be scared away by all the stuff to get. Fortunately, most of this stuff lasts a long time if you take care of it, so you only have to make a big investment once. Skiing is a super fun way to stay in shape during the winter and provides variety into your life. Good luck with the skiing and with the guy!


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

Excellent and detailed advice from IBB. Agreed that (like biking) the proper clothes make all the difference in having fun or really really NOT having fun. A few additions:

Rent good quality stuff, not the cheapy package. It costs a few bucks more, but totally worth it. Try several types of boots and skis. The hardest thing is to find boots that are comfortable- don't put up with sore feet! Don't buy ski's or boots right away, wait a season or two until you're sure you like skiing and know what you want (again, like biking).

Take more than one lesson from a professional. It is the fastest way to learn without stress and get you off the bunny hill. A couple lessons will get you out on the "grown up" runs and let you start having some fun. The faster it gets to be fun, the more likely you'll want to continue! The BF can take over after the pros get you started. I've seen soooooo many people who tried to learn from friends or SO's, with the result that they get frustrated, scared or hurt. Unless the boyfriend is an instructor, you're better off paying for a few lessons.

If you are looking at only alpine (downhill) skiing, I don't think you are likely to get much fitness "carry-over" to next seasons biking. If you try and like cross-country skiing, that will work a lot better.

Have fun! I've been skiing for 23 years and it's still a blast!


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Christine said:


> - Is this going to put me in the poorhouse?? :eekster: Although I don't expect this to become another obsession.


Well, good luck with THAT! 

Skiing is fun. And yes, for your first few days, sunglasses are probably fine because you're going slower (assuming you're going in nice weather) but you're going to want goggles very quickly. I find it impossible to ski in sunglasses unless it's spring skiing and at least 60 degrees or so out.

On the bright side, you can use goggles for biking too - if you're doing lift served, riding in super dusty conditions, etc - goggles can be a godsend on a bike too. So they still serve a dual purpose - though I end up scratching lenses faster while biking, so I have summer lenses and winter lenses (and you can get MX style lenses too which are better vented and single layer (and cheaper) for summer)

For clothes on the outer layer - you want waterproof breatheable. I love arc'teryx, mountain hardwear, etc. but they're expensive. I always look for sales. CW-X tights are wonderful base layers, and I've worn them for cold weather biking too. And there's no reason you can't wear biking tights as a base layer, provided they don't have some bulky grip seam around the ankle that's going to bunch up and irritate you in your ski boots. Whatever long underwear you like is fine as long as it's not bunching up in your boots - you want a really smooth layer there or you'll get hot spots.

With outerwear - honestly, if you do a lot of winter biking, there's no reason you couldn't dual-purpose a winter riding jacket with a ski jacket. I get the lightest waterproof breatheable shell I can find for skiing and it would work fine for biking if I wanted to use it for that - though admittedly, mine is a bright color that I'm afraid would get dirty if I biked in it.... Anyway, you just layer enough stuff under it to keep you warm. I always prefer wool layers, which I also use for biking - Smartwool makes great long sleeve crewnecks which I often use for riding in cold weather. I also have a down "puffy" jacket that I use for camping, etc. which has gotten crammed under my shell on the coldest days. That's also very dual purpose - it gets used much more often for non-skiing purposes.

Ski socks should be as thin as you can get them. Thick socks will bunch up in your ski boots and cut off your circulation, making your feet colder. Lightweight ski socks are usually even too thick - I go for the ski socks marketed as "liner socks". Those are what you want.

Get boots that fit right. This will be near-impossible without going to a GOOD bootfitter. If you just go try them on you'll end up with boots that are too big - guaranteed. Because everyone's feet are different, you'll get the ones that don't smush the little protruding bones on your feet and then they'll be sliding around elsewhere and end up hurting your feet more. Go see someone who knows what they're doing and they'll find the boot that they can best modify to fit your foot. Unless you're one of the very lucky few who has a foot they modeled the boot after, you'll need some modifications done. It's worth taking the time to do that.

I like mittens for skiing because I get cold hands and it helps to bunch up my fingers. The disposable heater packs you can buy also help if that ends up being a problem with whatever gloves/mittens you use. Liner gloves are also nice to have, but not necessary to start with. And on warm spring skiing days, I actually use biking gloves for skiing.

And I'd recommend renting skis while you're learning unless you have some great deal you can't pass up. I think it's like biking - it's really hard to know what you're looking for when you don't know enough to tell what you like yet.

oh - and I'd totally recommend you check out http://www.theskidiva.com/forums - it's a women's only ski forum, with a lot of info and support for beginners on up.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

MtbRN said:


> Excellent and detailed advice from IBB. Agreed that (like biking) the proper clothes make all the difference in having fun or really really NOT having fun. A few additions:
> 
> Rent good quality stuff, not the cheapy package. It costs a few bucks more, but totally worth it. Try several types of boots and skis. The hardest thing is to find boots that are comfortable- don't put up with sore feet! Don't buy ski's or boots right away, wait a season or two until you're sure you like skiing and know what you want (again, like biking).
> 
> ...


I forgot about that. Same rules apply as with learning to bike... learning from the SO is typically not the best idea. Luckily, unlike with biking, real lessons are readily available.

I think it's safe to buy boots right away, provided you know you're going to a really good bootfitter. (plus, good fitting rental boots may or may not be possible depending on the shape of your feet.) I'd put it as akin to picking your saddle. If it fits you, it fits you no matter what bike you put it on. (yeah, maybe in the future you'll want touring boots or some such thing, like realizing you want a TI saddle to save weight or some such thing). But while you have a bazillion options in skis, and may want multiple pairs in the future for different things, for the most part, the perfect boot for you is the one that really, truly FITS.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Wow, so much advice already, thanks guys!!

_Unless the boyfriend is an instructor, you're better off paying for a few lessons._

Ha, he's not quite a boyfriend yet, but he used to be a ski instructor!

He also said I should bring a buddy who's also a beginner, since he plans on giving me instructions then taking off to ski :skep: which I think kinda sucks, but I can relate and actually don't mind doing stuff on my own so no big deal.

Just noticed cool red ski pants on steepandcheap, oh my I can feel the wallet getting lighter already.....


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Christine said:


> _Unless the boyfriend is an instructor, you're better off paying for a few lessons._


I third this advice. Being a former instructor will not erase the relationship dynamic.

Take a two hour morning lesson, and then ski together after lunch. We did that for years until I could ski with my hubby all day long. I'm going to add that telemark mates nicely with biking for winter conditioning.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

For boots, I'll stress what Connie said, a GOOD bootfitter. Ski boots fit much closer than shoes and have a tendency to pack out. It's not uncommon for newbies to make huge mistakes in boot buying, especially if they are going to a discount place. And a pair of ill fitting boots can ruin your whole experience, make it harder to learn, etc.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

formica said:


> For boots, I'll stress what Connie said, a GOOD bootfitter. Ski boots fit much closer than shoes and have a tendency to pack out. It's not uncommon for newbies to make huge mistakes in boot buying, especially if they are going to a discount place. And a pair of ill fitting boots can ruin your whole experience, make it harder to learn, etc.


And everyone does it. "I don't even know if I'll like skiing - I'll just find a cheap pair, or buy some at a swap". Or they felt comfy walking around in them or they were on sale and it was such a good deal I couldn't resist. And then three pairs of "cheap" boots later, when your feet are still screaming in pain, full price from a great bootfitter sounds like a pretty good deal.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

connie said:


> And everyone does it. "I don't even know if I'll like skiing - I'll just find a cheap pair, or buy some at a swap". And then three pairs of "cheap" boots later, when your feet are still screaming in pain, full price from a great bootfitter sounds like a pretty good deal.


I thought about putting what I paid for my last pair of boots - that I LOVE - that I had professionally fitted. Then I decided, I better not.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

formica said:


> I thought about putting what I paid for my last pair of boots - that I LOVE - that I had professionally fitted. Then I decided, I better not.


Me too...


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Bootfitter. How much we talkin'? Last time I skied was like a decade ago, in the Alps, when that boyfriend taught me by taking me to the top of a black slope and figuring I'd survive the trip down. I had the basic moves down pat, but kept falling on purpose just to slow myself down!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

let's just say you don't want to do it until you are sure you like the sport. In the meantime, just stick with a reputable shop.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

_Take a two hour morning lesson, and then ski together after lunch. We did that for years until I could ski with my hubby all day long._

Holy crap, this will be like a college education, only more expensive!


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

formica said:


> let's just say you don't want to do it until you are sure you like the sport. In the meantime, just stick with a reputable shop.


Yeah, depends on your budget. I've gotten decent boots fit at the Lifthouse - that run me about $400 or so with the boots. They were okay - I had decent performance and was reasonably pain-free. And the boots were on sale to some extent, but that was just luck.

Last fall I went to the Sport Loft and had full custom work done by Earl - who is like a God of bootfitting. It was over $1200. And worth every dime... My feet don't get cold, they don't cramp, I don't get hot spots. I can ski better because I don't have to compenate for being off balance or needing to turn my foot any farther than I need to to get the ski to react. There was no break in and they didn't pack out after I've now skied them for 80 or 90 days. They are heaven. (and had better last for the rest of eternity too...)

And speaking of crossover - I've put my old footbeds that Earl did for me years ago in my old boots into my cycling shoes. OMG why didn't I do THAT before? Sooooooo nice.

Just wherever you go, make sure they shell-fit you and you aren't just trying things on on your own. (That means they pull the liners out and measure your foot just in the shell only.) Any reasonable bootfitter will also look at your bare foot and have some pretty solid opinions on what boot will fit you based on the shape of your foot, not be letting you pick which ones look nice or will match your skis. If they don't do those things, go somewhere else.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

if you want to learn cheap xc ski.

otherwise, you'll spend $2000 and thats not going high end.

Best compromise, go to a high end resort and rent, learn to ski packages come with the rentals, and high end resort probably means okay rentals


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

He suggested one of the bus trips from a ski shop, better-quality rentals from the shops than at the resorts. 

If it's $2k to learn, then I can't even bother!!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Christine said:


> _Take a two hour morning lesson, and then ski together after lunch. We did that for years until I could ski with my hubby all day long._
> 
> Holy crap, this will be like a college education, only more expensive!


Mr. Formica learned to ski in the Italian Alps as a child. I started learning as an adult, big difference in abilities for a long time. . I learned many "survival " skiing skills following him all over the place, but no real technique.Best thing I ever did for myself was to run myself through adult lessons about 20 years ago.

Now we ski patrol, a huge volunteer commitment but family passes make it worth it.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

$2000 is a guess for an intensive first year. You will be a skier by then.

Then you spend another, $2000 on really good gear for the next year.

XC skiing will cost about $500 for the first year, you will get aerobic benefit enjoy the winter, mountains. Oh and downhill skiing will be way easy to learn after a year or two of XC.


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

Christine said:


> If it's $2k to learn, then I can't even bother!!


I started from the other side: a skier first, who became a mountain biker to stay in shape for the off-season (and because my then-bf, now husband was really into mountain biking). I remember being shocked that my first bike cost $500, and now I have a Racer-X.  As you know from mountain biking, if you get all your advice from the people who are really into the sport, you'll hear prices that make your head swim.

I was an xc skier first (and have spent far more on xc gear than alpine and tele, so even xc isn't automatically cheap), but decided to learn to alpine when I moved to CO. Around here, and probably anywhere skiing is big, you can get a pretty good pair of used skis for cheap--my first pair were ~$100 with bindings, and they served me really well. As many people have mentioned, boots are a bigger deal, although I defied all conventional wisdom and picked out my own pair at a discount sale. They fit comfortably and my feet never hurt and I didn't notice any performance degradation (maybe because I was new to the sport and didn't put in enough days to wear down my boots), although I was told by a professional they were too big for me. Meanwhile, my husband had his "professionally" fit, and they ended up being so tight that his feet were in constant pain. Moral: as with mountain biking, if you end up getting a professional fit, make sure (s)he knows what (s)he's talking about.

After a season, I was so bored by alpine skiing (could ski all the black diamonds without a problem, which is admittedly much easier in CO snow than in New England), I decided to get rid of all that gear and pick up telemark. I now xc ski most of the winter, and tele at the resorts whenever there's a good powder day. A perfect combination, and great cross training!

By the way, I definitely agree with the advice to get a lesson if at all possible, at least if you think you might want to hang out with this guy in the future!

Let us know how it goes.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

formica said:


> I third this advice. Being a former instructor will not erase the relationship dynamic.


Fourth (at least)
Having a "significant other" teach you stuff can be great for a relationship ... or it can ruin one in a few minutes.


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## dir-T (Jan 20, 2004)

*Fwiw*

A person can typically learn to snowboard fairly well in much less time than it takes to learn to ski fairly well. Snowboard boots are comfy and warm.

Just sayin'...


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## poff (Dec 23, 2003)

Your spending should depend on how many times you plan to ski during the season. If you are near ski resort, get a season pass if you plan to ski a lot and you will save (daily lift tickets are $60-$80 on average). Second, you should decide whether you want to ski or snowboard. Third, do not buy skies in your first year, learn first using rentals. Getting boots is personal, but I would also rent in the first year - what if you will not like skiing? Good luck. Skiing is awsome.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

So glad I live where I do! Our local closest hill still has a sub $40 day pass!!


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## poff (Dec 23, 2003)

Unfortunately my favorite places, like Chamonix, are $$$$$$$$$$$$$ We also like heli, and this is really $$$$$$$$$$$


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

formica said:


> So glad I live where I do! Our local closest hill still has a sub $40 day pass!!


Wow! Ours run $60-$90, but then again you can get multi-resort season passes here in CO for $300-$400. It doesn't take many ski days to make a season pass worthwhile!


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

What is telemark? From what I've read, it's a retro style.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

snicker, retro...

What's Tele? from telemark talk

It's a very old technique, the original form of skiing from the old country, that was dug out of the archives by a bunch of hippienonconformistswearingalpacaskihats in the late 70's. (trust me I married one)

The binding system is different, without a heel lock down, hence, "free the heel free your mind". This enables a different kind of turn from what an alpine skier can do, with bents knees that operate more independently of each than an alpine . It's a much more athletic type of skiing than alpine style, more of a dance in some ways. While in the original resurgence was mostly backcountry ( dam hippies toocheap to buy lift tickets) it's been reinvented with new technology. Translate this to mean, it costs as much as good alpine gear now. I started on leather boots too, but I couldn't' really start to master a solid tele turn until I got new style gear.

Everyone will argue about which kind of skiing is more fun, more pure ( sound familiar?) but it comes down to just lots of fun ways to slice up the hill. I find tele way more of a workout than regular alpine. I am stuck at intermediate as a telemarker but I am an expert alpine skier. My hubby is an expert on telemark gear, he teles all day long and the only way I can keep up is on alpine gear.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

formica said:


> the original form of skiing from the old country,


Original form 

This is pretty old school:








The long one is for gliding, the short one has reindeer fur on the bottom for traction. On hunting trips, people used one long pole that had a spear point at the other end.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Skiing has a range of different equipment and styles.

From very light skate cross coutnry to full downhill equipment.

To effect a Telemark turn with a lifting heel, and gain back to front balance, 
the outside ski is pushed forward and the inside ski pulled back the ckier is in an atheletic crouch and can easily make the turn.

This is used in cross country, nordic ski jumping, and what is called Tele skiing, almost downhill boots with a lifting heel.

One can ski, with or with out tele turn on lifting heel equipment, but best speed and control is usually (but certainly not always) achieved with a tele turn.

Without a lifting heel one cannot perform the classic tele turn.

The basic christie turn (normal downhill) has both feet together, and can be performed with or with out a lifting heel.


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## IttyBittyBetty (Aug 11, 2005)

*Ski Divas*



connie said:


> oh - and I'd totally recommend you check out http://www.theskidiva.com/forums - it's a women's only ski forum, with a lot of info and support for beginners on up.


Thanks Connie! I had no idea there was such a forum! I've signed up and have already started posting. Great info!


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## IttyBittyBetty (Aug 11, 2005)

*Tele with your BF!*

My BF and I decided to learn to telemark _together_ a couple years back. We had moved to Colorado and knew we wanted to ski or snow board. I had skied since I was 4 and had been snow boarding for 8 years. My BF had skied once in his life. Facing the potential of us being at totally different levels (and thus totally different places on the mountain), we decided that we would both learn to tele, hoping that would equalize things. While I took to it quicker from my longer snow sport background, we definitely were able to ski more together than if my BF had tried to alpine ski or snow board with me. Maybe you BF would like to try something new.....

If you're looking for a great off-season work out or if you yearn to get into the backcountry, then learn to tele ski. With _skins _on your tele skis (a rough fabric cover that you attach to the bottom of the ski to add traction) you can ascend back country slopes. When you go down the slope, you essentially do lunges that will get/keep you tush, thighs and hammies in tip top shape. After a season of tele skiing (and that's basically all I could do last year with all the snow we had in Boulder), I had no problem getting back on the bike (SS no less) feeling super strong.

Tele skiing is not easy, but the more you practice the better you get.


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## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

most of this has probably already been said since i'm jumping in a little late here but i'm too lazy to read through the responses so you'll just have to put up with me being redundant. 

- get what fits. ski stuff is a lot like bike stuff (only baggier....haha). what fits me may not be the best for you. however, my favorite ski outfit is a pair of fleece tights (with silk long undies under if it's really cold out) topped with a pair of Columbia brand water/windproof shell pants. on top i'll layer like i do for riding with a sports bra, base layer/silk turtleneck, a fleece, and a water/windproof shell jacket. i think my jacket is made by Marmot and is actually made for snowboarding rather than skiing (the big difference is the length in the back - snowboad jackets come down further over your butt so that when you're sitting in the snow at the top of the lift strapping in your a$$ doesn't end up soggy and frozen).

in general, Columbia brand stuff is a good buy for the money....or at least used to be when i was workign at a ski shop (many moons ago). other brands are Marmot, Descent, Spyder, the North Face (pricey but nice), and a zillion more i cant think of off the top of my head.

- yes & no. some bike stuff can double as ski stuff. base layers are pretty much universal.....but that's really about it. DO NOT use bike gloves as ski gloves. no matter how warm they are on the bike they will soak up water like a sponge. trust me. been there, done that (eventhough i knew better at the time).

- Smith sunglasses rock. but you'll probably want to get a pair of goggles at some point. i'm a big fan of rose colored lenses because they seem to do well in most light conditions. goggles will let you ski in pretty much any weather and i find them more comfy than sunglasses - less wind getting in around the sides.

- you didn't ask about this but i'm going to tell you anyway. GET A HELMET!!! trees don't get any softer in the snow.  seriously, it took years to convince me to get a helmet for skiing but now that i have one i love it. (i got a giro) it does preclude my wearing my really cool fleece wizard hat that goes all the way to the ground but it's a sacrifice i've learned to make in order to reduce the chances that i'll spend the rest of my days eating my meals through a straw because of an ill placed tree on my vacation. 

- yes. this will send you straight to the poorhouse in a way that cycling only wishes it could. my parents looked into a family ski vacation for next spring out to Snowmass CO. for 4 adults (including condo, airfare, lift tickets, food) the price was upwards of $15k. needless to say we are not going skiing next spring. 

- oh, and another thing you didn't ask about but i'm going to tell you anyway: you might want to consider learning to snowboard rather than ski. the learning curve is much steeper for snowboarding rather than skiing (i.e., you'll learn and get better faster at snowboarding than skiing). but if you do decided to go the snowboarding route, expect to spend a lot of time packing snow with your butt your first few times out. 

- and some final words of advice from someone who worked in a ski shop and saw it all:
1. no, there is no machine that makes the moguls
2. if you try on boots with 1 pair of socks and they fit, do not put multiple pair of socks on to ski just because there is snow outside. ski boots are well insulated and extra socks will only cut off the circulation to your toes and make them cold and numb.
2.5 (correlary to 2) a thin pair of wicking socks (i personally like silk socks) will keep your feed far warmer than 3 pair of fat wool socks (especially if you fit your boots with only 1 pr of socks).
3. jeans should never be worn for skiing
4. warm, waterproof gloves are key. i prefer mittens but others like gloves.
5. NEVER wear a scarf to ski. anything that hangs can get caught in a chair lift with dire consequences
6. NEVER secure your lift ticket to your zipper. why not? think about it - when you zip up where is that large, sharp, cold, paper? right next to your face where it will happily blow and cut your lips up. put your lift ticket on your sleeve or on one of the pocket zippers.
7. you are above teh tree line if you look out and don't see any trees (seriously, i used to get people asking me if they were above the tree line all the time)
8. beer is good and can soothe sore muscles
9. beer in hot tubs is bad
10. beer in hot tubs at high altitude (if you're not used to it) is even worse
11. there is nothing better than being in the back country when it is snowing and it is so quiet you can actually hear the snowflakes hit the ground.
12. a 45 min descent is great whether it's on a bike or on skis.



and, last but not least,
13. take a lesson. unless your SO is an instructor, you're better off, IMO, taking a lesson or two.

rt


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## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

connie said:


> Me too...


me three.

i ended up having custom liners made for my boots....kinda like buying and XTR groupo for my feet..... worth every penny since they're now so comfy they could double as bedroom slippers.

rt


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

some ideas on how to save $$ since all we've been talking about is how to spend it...

1. packages. there are rental/ticket/lesson packages at many mountains.
2. coupons. Sometimes even just buying your ticket at Safeway instead on on the hill can save a few bucks. Ask around where the deals are.
3. mid week skiing
4. Early/late season skiing
5. borrow clothing
6. shop steep and cheap, sierra trading post etc for sale clothing
7. volunteering - our area gives season passes for x hours of brush cutting
8. check out local family areas instead of big fancy resorts. This can mean upwards of $40 a ticket or more in savings a day. ( how much is Vail now??)
9. Come skiing with me, I can hook you up with a day pass


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## 9.8m/s/s (Sep 26, 2005)

Just haven't seen it mentioned yet- 

As is usually the case, Steep and Cheap will save your soul (and wallet)
Many places have free skiing for the first hour (8-9)
Backcountry is always free (and powdery)
There are many lift pass deals out there, google is your friend

Good luck!


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## Dwight Moody (Jan 10, 2004)

Midweek is the bomb. Cheaper tickets and fewer lines. The cold part of skiing is sitting in a lift line.

I find some bike and ski gear is pretty much the same. Wicking shirt, wicking socks (just not ankle socks for skiboots), waterproof shell and pants (mine aren't bike specific)... I wear a lot more for downhills skiing than I do biking in similar weather because there's the lift line and lift ride to think about. I prefer gloves because most mittens are too warm for my hands. In warmer weather I wear a fleece headband over my ears, when it's real cold it's a wool hat. Goggles are key, in my opinion. And you can wear them for winter commuting too, though everyone will think you're a freak. When you're ready to buy skis, get them used. There's a certain set of people around resort towns that sell their old, not very used, equipment every year and by themselves the latest. You can get some darn nice gear at a cheap price. What everyone said about boots is totally true.


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

*ski safely!*

RT made a good point about a helmet: sure, it's another up front cost, but far cheaper than the medical bills you might get if you hit a tree, and also cheaper than funeral costs. I always wear one at resorts--you never know when some crazy newbie is going to lose control and crash right into you!

Also, about backcountry (even though you didn't ask): if you're in an area prone to avalanches, make sure you take an avalanche class before you hit the slopes in the backcountry. (I live in CO, the state with the highest number of avalanche fatalities in the country, so I am constantly reminded of the importance of being aware of avalanche safety.)

On a related note, it's exciting to see how many skiers hang out in this forum! :thumbsup:


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

alaskarider said:


> Also, about backcountry (even though you didn't ask): if you're in an area prone to avalanches, make sure you take an avalanche class before you hit the slopes in the backcountry. (I live in CO, the state with the highest number of avalanche fatalities in the country, so I am constantly reminded of the importance of being aware of avalanche safety.)


Yup. A previous poster said "backcountry is always free" but if you want to go anywhere interesting you need to invest in a beacon (not cheap), shovel, probe, pack to carry this gear, and an avalanche course to learn how to use it all effectively. Plus, you can't safely ski in the backcountry alone, so trips depend on having a partner who has the time and actually shows up for a day of skiing!



alaskarider said:


> On a related note, it's exciting to see how many skiers hang out in this forum! :thumbsup:


Agreed!


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

most university, rec centers in the mountains will rent beacons etc. at least around here.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Plus the avalanche course will come in handy for around here in the city! 

I'm reluctant to acquire a new, expensive addiction, but it does sound like so much fun.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

jeffscott said:


> most university, rec centers in the mountains will rent beacons etc. at least around here.


a beacon is useless without proper training and practice.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Christine said:


> Plus the avalanche course will come in handy for around here in the city!
> 
> I'm reluctant to acquire a new, expensive addiction, but it does sound like so much fun.


you could always take up diving instead.


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

Christine said:


> I'm reluctant to acquire a new, expensive addiction, but it does sound like so much fun.


Just do a little research into the lifetime costs of health care here in the US and then think of it as an investment in your health! (and then don't ever crash or get hurt...)


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## MTNgirl (Jul 20, 2004)

pssst! some good powder stoke on the turner board...***drool***


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Christine said:


> Plus the avalanche course will come in handy for around here in the city!
> 
> I'm reluctant to acquire a new, expensive addiction, but it does sound like so much fun.


I agree - it's $$$. But what else can you do in winter that compares to this:


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Heh, you live in Utah... 
We get snow (ish) around here that's called "elephant snot".


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

some ski related photos now:
View from Kicking Horse, Golden BC
Climbing for a few turns after the lifts are closed for the season - Mt. Spokane
Me and my guys- Mt. Spokane


darn, where are those Fernie pics?


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Where is your jacket, young lady?!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Hey, I'm an official NSP "Angel". That my award I've gotten for all the behinds the scenes stuff I do. I am not an official patroller, but I certainly earn my pass.

I found another goodie in the files: This is the Hawaiian Shower curtain, picked up at the ski swap for $10, perfect for those Spring Fling parties on the hill. It's also a great way to ensure my teens find other people to ski with.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

I'm afraid of painful rental boots and inadequate clothing. Or in your case, painful clothing!  

Gotta get some gear this weekend (aka holiday shop for myself.) 

So is skiing harder than XC or All-Mountain biking?

If there's no machine, how DO they build moguls? Actual people?  

If I've never skateboarded or surfed, would I really take to snowboarding? Which would result in fewer injuries? The idea of not being able to clip out of a snowboard is kinda freaky....


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

the great snowboard vs. ski debate.....

Most common injuries for snowboarding are wrist, collarbone, tail bone. Snowboarding has a shorter but steeper learning curve. You can get "adequate" quicker on a snowboard, but unless you are committed you may stay there.

Most commom injury for skiers is probably ACL/MCL which good technique will help prevent. Learning curve is longer, more gradual but it's easier to progress beyond "adequate" once you get the hang of it.

Moguls - good skiers build good moguls. Crappy skiers boarders build crappy moguls.
Best moguls I've ever seen were at Kicking Horse, 4000' of progressively bigger. They do use machines to build competition moguls.

let the debate continue....


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

Is skiing harder than XC mountain biking? It will feel like it at first. The learning process will leave you feeling a bit beat up. Whether you take lessons or not, if you try skiing or snowboarding you WILL fall down. 

It is harder to learn as an adult. Most of us at least knew how to ride on/balance a bike from learning as kids, so that made learning mountain biking a lot easier for most. We already had the most basic skills. Same with snowboarding- if you surfed or skateboarded then snowboarding would be an easier transition. Skiing is a whole new set of skills, and there isn't anything else that mimics it, really.

As for level of effort, you can make it as hard as you like. Just as you can "XC mtn bike" on easy trails, you can ski on groomed slopes and expend as little effort as you like (it's about gravity). Or you can get into the moguls, or the bowls, or the powder and make it as hard as you like. That's the beauty of the sport (-:

And just to clarify- no one purposely builds moguls. They are a natural obstacle that is created by dozens of skiers and boarders displacing snow with each turn. Steeper slopes tend to get deeper moguls. Ski resorts groom away new moguls on some runs, and leave them on others. 

Snow falling in Summit County in CO- Looks like my ski season starts this weekend! Yay!


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Christine said:


> If I've never skateboarded or surfed, would I really take to snowboarding? Which would result in fewer injuries? The idea of not being able to clip out of a snowboard is kinda freaky....


I'm the same way - I tried to skateboard as a kid and was never any good at it.

I just don't think snowboarding would be my thing - it's not a natural position or movement for me.

Skiing, IMO, is very similar to biking. You need your hands up and in front of you, just like they're on the handlebars. You're looking straight forward where you want to go, outside foot down in corners... there are a lot of similarities.

I'm also not interested in sitting on my butt on purpose to mess with snowboard bindings, or having to hop along without poles when things are flat, or try to navigate lift lines with a board sticking out at a weird angle on one foot.

I guess it's whatever appeals to you. They both have their plusses and minuses.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Ditto on Connie again.

I find a huge correlation with skiing and biking - the flow, picking a line, the spaces in between the trees etc.

Regarding snowboards. Some people love it. I've never had the desire to try it. If you see a really good boarder (rare in my area) laying out a beautiful carve with their pinky trailing in the snow... that is an amazing sight to see. My sons, who both started skiing in diapers, tried it a few times as young teens because that's what all their friends were doing. Like, Connie, they were turned off by the amount of time spent sitting on the snow fussing with bindings etc.

I am a little biased - my primary hill is a family/local area where 80% of the boarders never progress beyond lower level intermediate. It's a great park toy, but it's really frustrating when all the powder gets shoveled off the runs by heel side traverses. Thank goodness for secret power stashes.  The other 20% - like I said, if a boarder can make it up to a high skill level, like the guys on our patrol, it means they are phenomenal.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Downhill skiing is an anaerobic burst,

XC skiing is aerobic.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

jeffscott said:


> Downhill skiing is an anaerobic burst,
> 
> XC skiing is aerobic.


Again, just like biking. DH biking is just like DH skiing - it's more of a sprint/interval workout, and power serves you better than endurance.

XC skiing is like XC biking - it's your typical cardio workout.

Backcountry skiing is more like freeride/all-mountain/whatever you want to call it if you're riding in the mountains on the typical climb to the top, ride all the way back down sort of trail. You get to do a combination of both. And just like with biking, you can pick your gear and balance out how much extra work you want to do to haul up heavy gear vs. how much more fun you're likely to have with the fat skis/long travel bike on the way back down. You do have to factor in the avalanche danger and training that you'll need to do this though. Backcountry skiing is free, but you have to pay for beacon/shovel/probe and training to know how to use it and avoid dangerous conditions or it's not doing you any good either. BC skiing is fun, but just learn what you're doing before diving in.


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## Seasoned Warrior (Oct 8, 2007)

*Kinda what she said*



IttyBittyBetty said:


> We telemark ski, so it's especially good for off-season training and keeps my glutes, quads, and thighs in tip top shape. Skiing, and any cold weather sport for that matter, are not enjoyable if you don't have the right clothes. And by that, I clothes that keep you warm, are easy to move in and don't get you overheated. I wear a lot of Arteryx, Marmot, Mammot, Cloudveil, Columbia, Salolmon, Outdoor Research, Isis and Go-Lite stuff. REI also makes some nice winter outerwear. Essential items include:
> 
> I personally prefer goggles to sunglasses. When it's windy, or snowy glasses are no fun. Save the shades for the beer apres ski.
> 
> ...


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## jalopy jockey (Jun 7, 2007)

dir-T said:


> A person can typically learn to snowboard fairly well in much less time than it takes to learn to ski fairly well. Snowboard boots are comfy and warm.
> 
> Just sayin'...


This is true. Took em years to ski, days to tear it up on board. I have not put on teh skis in 5 years, borad well not yet this year but its waxed. However unless your going somewhere big. Skiers don't like to wait for us at the top of the lifts. 15 seconds to strap in. for a 45 second run. Now east or west where there be real mountains thats another story.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Started shopping for jackets, North Face is gawgeous but nowhere near the realm of my budget. Columbia stuff was half the price and looks good.

Skier Guy says to get a jacket with a "skirt" to prevent drafts/snow from going inside. Seems like accessories are mostly a matter of preference, like choosing b/w the warmth of mittens vs the dexterity of gloves, etc. 

I'm treating this as a friendship first, so I'm less concerned about the relationship aspect! For now, it's casual.


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