# long travel hardtail?



## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

what kind of hardtails are out there that can handle a 180mm dual crown fork? my fs frame basically died on me, so im switching towards a hardtail. whats out there with 135mm spacing and can handle a long fork?


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## Lunchbox362 (Jun 27, 2009)

gbosbiker said:


> what kind of hardtails are out there that can handle a 180mm dual crown fork? my fs frame basically died on me, so im switching towards a hardtail. whats out there with 135mm spacing and can handle a long fork?


Don't put a dual crown on a hardtail dude, please, it's so janky


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

Lunchbox362 said:


> Don't put a dual crown on a hardtail dude, please, it's so janky


im doing a frame swap. i was going to get a new fs frame but my budget just dropped significantly..so hardtail it is. and i dont have the money for a single crown.

all i want to know is what frames that are out there now that can handle that sort of travel..


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## Lunchbox362 (Jun 27, 2009)

Seems to me the frames that can legitimately handle that much travel would cost as much as a used single crown


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

Lunchbox362 said:


> Seems to me the frames that can legitimately handle that much travel would cost as much as a used single crown


im asking for what frames can handle it. and if there arent anymore in production, ill consider a fork swap of some sort. all i want to know is whats out there.


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## fryed_1 (Nov 8, 2010)

Mine does just fine... thought I wouldn't really recommend it. I set it up on a drunken night just to have some fun and I'll admit... it's a blast to ride around, but I wouldn't want to leave it that way. I've already moved it over to a 150mm fox.


















It's 180mm shiver loaded up on an '06 rocky mountain flow f2.0


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## kanai (Aug 26, 2008)

the ragley troof and bagger frames are optimized for 150-170mm forks. i can't think of any HT designed around a DC fork. you could try to contact brant and ask his opinion, he's on mtbr from time to time. good luck


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## csermonet (Feb 2, 2009)

why not by an older used full sus? stupid decision in my personal opinion, you can get a used sunday frame for around $500. one even sold for $250!??!?! youd be better off buying a bmx bike.

sunday - Freeride/DH Frames - Page 1 - Pinkbike.com Buy&Sell


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

im trying to stay away from older fs's because of the wear and tear they get. my bikes only 4 yrs old and half the bushings are shot. hardtails are simpler and more versatile. most of the stuff i ride requires pedaling so a hardtail will help. im basically looking for a long travel all mtn bike. the fork is an 05 888 rc. im pretty sure its 180mm or 170mm. so it sits somewhere in the 160mm single crown height i believe. 

and i have a bmx back home. bmx doesnt do it for me anymore. ive had multiple bmxs and dj bikes. nothing gives me the same feeling as ripping down a trail.


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

kanai said:


> the ragley troof and bagger frames are optimized for 150-170mm forks. i can't think of any HT designed around a DC fork. you could try to contact brant and ask his opinion, he's on mtbr from time to time. good luck


that ragley troof looks like what im looking for. i was looking at the sinister ridge, but thats way too expensive. all ide need for the frame swap is a reducer headset, seatpost, and the frame itself. looks like i found my frame!


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## drastic. (Nov 22, 2010)

gbosbiker said:


> nothing gives me the same feeling as ripping down a trail....or my local school's grass


fixed.


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## Moosey (May 18, 2010)

If you've had a DJ bike before, you would know that this will be a taller DJ bike, and a FS will be a lot better. You bought your mongoose used and it broke. **** happens. That dosent mean all used bikes will break. I bought an 02 M1 used (im the third user) and its still going strong. I've broken the shock twice and still not the frame. check Pinkbikes buy/sell. Good stuff goes on there for cheap all the time.

I can garuntee you that you wont feel like dong stuff like that road gap on a hardtail....

look for stuff like this:
2006 session 77 with a 66 coil new internals! PRICE DROP - Pinkbike.com

***Santa Cruz Bullit 2005 for sale!*** PRICE DROP *** - Pinkbike.com

2005 black foes fly with upgrades!! size large - Pinkbike.com

stuff like that. You will enjoy "ripping down a trail" so much more.


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

Transition Vagrant. No longer made but you should be able to find one used. Can mount a 200mm DC if you want. Rides like crap though, feels like the head angle changes from 65 to 80 degrees when the fork compresses. Which is one of the main problems with long travel hardtails.



This photo pretty much sums it up. Thats a vagrant with a 888.


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

i guess what im getting at is that im going towards the AM side of things with the occasional freeride type stuff. im going to be doing alot of pedaling. the mongoose made me realize that a fs is not whats gunna get the job done. and if i ever want to go back to fs, i can ghetto rig the crap out of my mongoose to make it rideable again.

and that picture with the vagrant, those are single track rims. im not surprised that happened..


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Just to add to the comments, you might want to contact the manufacturer rep for the bike you plan to build up and ask your question. They would know which bikes can handle a double crown or any other structural questions. They know the geometry and compatibility of their bikes best

Last month after blowing up my seals on my fork, I contacted the rep for Transition (Chris) to ask if I can replace my 180mm fork with a double crown. The rep replied to my email with a rational why a double crown was not compatible or recommended for my bike (Syren). He provided me with alternate solutions as well.... great advice.


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

gbosbiker said:


> i guess what im getting at is that im going towards the AM side of things with the occasional freeride type stuff. im going to be doing alot of pedaling. the mongoose made me realize that a fs is not whats gunna get the job done. and if i ever want to go back to fs, i can ghetto rig the crap out of my mongoose to make it rideable again.
> 
> and that picture with the vagrant, those are single track rims. im not surprised that happened..


The reason that happened was that he shorted the creek gap on "brakecheck" at Blackrock and smashed his back wheel into the log at 25mph...

What I am getting at is that I have pedalled that vagrant around, and my conclusion is that a hardtail with 200mm travel rides like crap. The front end is ridiculously high and bobs up and down when you pedal so it still doesnt make a good all mountain bike. At the same time you have a very slack head angle that transforms into an extremely steep head angle when the fork compresses, which makes it handle really weird on the down hill. Going down fast, your back end bounces around uncontrollably while your fork is twiddling its thumbs. Jumping it also feels really weird as the front end soaks up the ramp while the back end pops up. It just creates a very very unbalanced bike.

My advice would be a short travel FS freeride bike like a Transition Bottle Rocket or Dual, a Specialized SX or something like that. Set up the suspension fairly stiff so it doesn't bottom out on jumps and pedals well. It will still work better in the rough stuff than a hardtail with a 7 pound fork, and blow it out of the water anywhere else. Feel free to ignore all the advice here though and see for yourself.


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## fryed_1 (Nov 8, 2010)

My 95% bike for local trails (XC/AM) is a 29er rigid SS running 32/15 and commute back and forth to work. I put about 35mi a day on that bike for the last 3yrs straight, 4-6 days a week. I tell you that so you know when it comes to tooting around the trails, my legs are up to just about anything I can throw at them.

I took the hardtail pictured above for a 13mi trip out on the same trail and it was torture. Center balance is about 2" behind the headset. It is HEAVY and difficult to navigate uphill. If you're thinking about even light AM, you will hate it. I promise you that. It handled the little 3-footers and small gaps on our local trails just fine... and even the short and moderate downhill sections of the trail. Anything larger and it's so front heavy that it gets harder and more work than it's worth to keep from nose diving. Plus even getting to them was a chore I really don't want to experience again if I don't have to.

Seriously check out pinkbike, ebay and even craigslist. You can easily find an inexpensive hardtail that would be ready to ride and much more enjoyable for all mountain type riding than a single frame designed to take a DC fork. For example, I picked up an '08 fisher wahoo for $150 on craigslist locally, disc brakes and everything and I rode that a madman. When something broke, I upgraded. I still have the bike and love it - same frame as its $1500 brethren with lower-end parts. Now you have your XC/AM trail bike and sock a few buck away each payday over the winter to replace/rebuild your DH frame.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Some of the norco shore hardtails can run DC forks, some came with them stock, like the manic.

Pretty fun bikes!


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## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

kanai said:


> the ragley troof and bagger frames are optimized for 150-170mm forks. i can't think of any HT designed around a DC fork. you could try to contact brant and ask his opinion, he's on mtbr from time to time. good luck


brant is no longer w/ ragley, but yeah, those frames would be fine w/ a 180mm fork. i've run a 160mm totem on my bagger & geo is spot on for aggressive trail / freeride. your dualcrown will probably have a similar fork height. yeah, dc looks a bit wack on a ht, but if it's what you've got & you're on a budget, i'd say run with it. run a bit more low speed compression so you're not wallowing, and you're golden. long(ish) travel on a ht can work if the frame is designed for it, and you're fork is set up appropriately.

also troof vs bagger: though i've not ridden the troof, there is a discernible bit of compliance w/ the steel bagger over other aluminum ht's i've tried. takes the edge off for sure; i wouldn't ride aluminum again.


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

xy9ine said:


> brant is no longer w/ ragley, but yeah, those frames would be fine w/ a 180mm fork. i've run a 160mm totem on my bagger & geo is spot on for aggressive trail / freeride. your dualcrown will probably have a similar fork height. yeah, dc looks a bit wack on a ht, but if it's what you've got & you're on a budget, i'd say run with it. run a bit more low speed compression so you're not wallowing, and you're golden. long(ish) travel on a ht can work if the frame is designed for it, and you're fork is set up appropriately.
> 
> also troof vs bagger: though i've not ridden the troof, there is a discernible bit of compliance w/ the steel bagger over other aluminum ht's i've tried. takes the edge off for sure; i wouldn't ride aluminum again.


thank you for a response that ive been looking for. yeah i know it will be wack looking, but itll get the job done for what i want. i found the troof and bagger on CRC and i can get everything needed to convert over to one of the frames (headset, seatpost, etc) for $590. not too bad for a brand new frame and a few odds and ends.

so now the debate bagger vs troof? i know the bagger will be more forgiving, but i love the look of the troof. i dont mind a slightly harsher ride. im more worried about long term durability..right now im leaning towards the troof.


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## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

i'd still encourage you to look at the steel bagger, but to each his own. this is actually kinda neat: super slack dh ht (boxxer dropped to 6")










Homemade Bikes: Paul Burford and the BTR Mark 1


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

xy9ine said:


> i'd still encourage you to look at the steel bagger, but to each his own. this is actually kinda neat: super slack dh ht (boxxer dropped to 6")
> 
> 
> 
> ...


im not disregarding the bagger. theres no doubt in my mind that is a great bike. i just love the looks of the troof. i found a picture of an 18" bagger and it looks nicer in a bigger frame size. i guess i like the look of the troof because i had a dj bike before that so im used to the low slung frames. but if the bagger is a smoother ride ide be willing to compromise  seeing how they are both the same price i cant complain much. the bagger is only in 20" on CRC now (what i need) so if that goes out of stock im getting the troof. but if its still in stock ill probably go for the bagger


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## fryed_1 (Nov 8, 2010)

If you're looking at $590 for a new HT frame, why not go with a used FR/DH frame? You could easily replace/upgrade your mongoose, transfer hardware and be back in to a full suspension for that money.


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

fryed_1 said:


> If you're looking at $590 for a new HT frame, why not go with a used FR/DH frame? You could easily replace/upgrade your mongoose, transfer hardware and be back in to a full suspension for that money.


because im going to be doing A LOT of pedaling and with full suspension frames theres too many different variations of parts (bb width, wheel spacing etc) out there. forget finding a large/xl frame that will work. with the stuff im riding a long travel hardtail is plenty. plus then theres less maintenance in the long run. a hardtail is more versatile for what i want


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## fryed_1 (Nov 8, 2010)

Good luck with that man... hehe.. Like I said I'm a strong rider, a LOT of XC on a daily basis and a DC hardtail was rough on me. Run it for a bit, but if you see an inexpensive SC fork in the 120-160mm range you should jump on it. Your legs will definitely thank you! I was able to pick up a Fox 32 130mm for my Rocky Mountain pictured above locally on craigslist for $225 and it included a Mavic Crossland rim. I am a MUCH happier rider now.

FWIW Chainlove had some new Rocky Mountain Flow DJ bikes in the $500 range a few months ago. Might try to dig around to see if any are still around. It's a stout enough bike and light enough so you could have a lot of fun on it and not have to worry about moving parts over from your Mongoose. Always nice to have a second bike as well.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

gbosbiker said:


> i guess what im getting at is that im going towards the AM side of things with the occasional freeride type stuff. im going to be doing alot of pedaling.


Sell whatever is leftover of what you've got and buy a tough AM hardtail then, or even something used. You're attempting to cobble something together and it's going to suck no matter what you do. It's like trying to make a pizza from a loaf of bread. No matter what ingredients you put on it, it's just not going to be the same. It doesn't make sense to build a bike around a fork.


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

Get a solid long-travel hardtail. Chromag makes some good offerings, or check out the On-One 456 or 456 Summer Season. Sell your fork and pick up a used Lyrik. You will be happy.


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

fryed_1 said:


> Good luck with that man... hehe.. Like I said I'm a strong rider, a LOT of XC on a daily basis and a DC hardtail was rough on me. Run it for a bit, but if you see an inexpensive SC fork in the 120-160mm range you should jump on it. Your legs will definitely thank you! I was able to pick up a Fox 32 130mm for my Rocky Mountain pictured above locally on craigslist for $225 and it included a Mavic Crossland rim. I am a MUCH happier rider now.
> 
> FWIW Chainlove had some new Rocky Mountain Flow DJ bikes in the $500 range a few months ago. Might try to dig around to see if any are still around. It's a stout enough bike and light enough so you could have a lot of fun on it and not have to worry about moving parts over from your Mongoose. Always nice to have a second bike as well.


thanks. im planning on riding the fork until i can find a cheap one or trade it for a 160mm single crown. for now, its all i got. if i get the bagger or troof im going to salvage some old parts and make the mongoose a ski bike :thumbsup:


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

Jim311 said:


> Sell whatever is leftover of what you've got and buy a tough AM hardtail then, or even something used. You're attempting to cobble something together and it's going to suck no matter what you do. It's like trying to make a pizza from a loaf of bread. No matter what ingredients you put on it, it's just not going to be the same. It doesn't make sense to build a bike around a fork.


im not building it around the fork. im building it around my entire bike..


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## Kronk (Jan 4, 2004)

If the axle-to-crown of a DC fork is close to the same as a 180mm single crown Marzocchi 66, it doesn't make a (size small) Transition Trans Am feel messed up.

Been using the 66 on mine for a year now. Looking to go for a second FS now, so it will get robbed for that over the winter.

I doubt it would be good to the frame for long-term use, but it does sort of fill what you are looking to find.


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## wasea04 (Apr 2, 2007)

*Stout Phantom!*

Custom built from a frame-builder of dj's an fr ht's in TX......


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## Freerydejunky (Sep 21, 2006)

Rode and Evil Imperial with a Totem on it for a few weeks. Sold that ***** asap. 
Just not fun. Any Aluminum hardtail frame will beat the living piss out of you for anything more than AM riding. 

I moved onto an Evil Sovereign. Ran it with a Marz AM SL(150mm) for a year, then switched to a Van RC2. I feel that I could take this bike anywhere. Rode it at multiple DH parks around Europe this last summer. 160mm is all I would slap on the front of a hardtail. And it would have to be a steel hardtail.


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## Lunchbox362 (Jun 27, 2009)

gbosbiker said:


> thank you for a response that ive been looking for. yeah i know it will be wack looking, but itll get the job done for what i want..


Yeah look we're telling you dude, getting a hard tail set up with a dual crown is gonna pedal worse than a decent FS that you could get for a fair price used.


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## gbosbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

the dual crown is temporary. its only going to be on the bike until i find a good deal on a single crown. and most of the stuff i ride is more AM type stuff anyways.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

My vote:

http://forums.mtbr.com/5196009-post12.html

Too bad only 4 in existence.

DWF raced this one downhill with a DC fork.

michael


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## schlockinz (Feb 6, 2009)

Sell the dual crown and buy a single crown and skip the whole phase of riding an 8" hard tail.

BTW, has anyone mentioned the transition trans am? Won't take a DC, but it seems like everyone really liked them that I read about.

Another offering would be the banshee morphine, not sure if its a DC rated bike or not, but like I said, just ditch the dual crown right now if you are switching to the hardtail and save yourself the headache


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## -jes (Feb 6, 2011)

Running a NS Surge 2 (steel) with 160 Lyriks U-turn feels pretty good but it still feels steeper than the FS bikes.
Originally ran it with some Argyles and it felt crap, HA too steep and not enough travel.

Not sure about a dual crown on it, but I reccon it could definatly take a Fox 36 Talas 180 ok so you may get away with it until you could spring for some single crown forks.

Local guy's are also running the following

On-One - 456 & Summer Season
Ragley - Mmmbop (alloy) Blue Pig (steel)
Cotic - BFe & Soul


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## sonic reducer (Apr 12, 2010)

gbosbiker said:


> im trying to stay away from older fs's because of the wear and tear they get. my bikes only 4 yrs old and half the bushings are shot.


you know that bearings/bushings are replaceable right? 

hardtails are good for a few things. XC, DJ/4x, trailriding. and for these you usually want a pretty short travel fork. why give one wheel way more capability than the other? it will be maddening to ride. putting a DH fork on a hardtail is like putting 35" mud tires on a honda civic.


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## The Beater (Aug 17, 2008)

this dude rips fast on a hard tail, Can be done but would wear you out pretty fast in the rough.

hardtail in whistler Video - Pinkbike.com


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