# Enduro shock eye needle bearing kit



## DGC (Jan 12, 2004)

Just thought you might like to see this. This is a conversion kit to replace your stock DU and reducers on your shock. Reduces the drag by like a TON....!!!!!
I just installed it on my 5 Spot, have not ridden it yet in the dirt, (hopefully this weekend), but by the feel in the garage it should run real smoothly. 
If you have ever replaced your DU before, this is not much different, quite simple to install and takes a few minutes to do so. The tools they sell are real slick looking for removing the old DU and installing the new goodies.
I hope to ride it this weekend and see how it does.

There is plenty of info on the Enduro fork seals web site if you want to look into it further.
I think the web site is http://enduroforkseals.com


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

For the folks in Europe there's also the Amachete kit... Same thing and it has been available for years.

http://www.amachete.com/

However, now that Enduro has them, I'd be more than willing to try them.


----------



## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

Should be far more durable than the plastic lined bushings too.


----------



## assaf_angel (Mar 4, 2008)

*another one and cheaper*

http://www.mountainbikecomponents.co.uk/items.asp?CategoryID=231&Name=Fox+Needle+Roller+Bearing


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

assaf_angel said:


> http://www.mountainbikecomponents.co.uk/items.asp?CategoryID=231&Name=Fox+Needle+Roller+Bearing


Sure, a perfunctory look by an untrained eye might think that's the same thing, but it is not the same thing at all. It comes with seals but no spacers. The seals, when placed two on each side of the bearing do not actually cover all of the inner ring (the "axle" of the bearing). In other words they do not seal the bearing. Our seals are captured by the aluminum spacers which results in a perfect coverage and sealing of the inner ring. In addition, our kit fits 6 or 8 mm hardware since it comes with the reducing sleeves. Not to mention our kit includes all the parts for both shock eyes. The one referenced above is for one end of the shock. Turns out our kit has over twice the parts at a much lower price (you have to double the $24.00 of the other kit and you still won't have the necessary spacers and the additional reducing sleeves).


----------



## Mk3Rider (Dec 7, 2008)

sucky, i have 10x30 hardware...


----------



## assaf_angel (Mar 4, 2008)

*sory*

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Chris2fur said:


> Sure, a perfunctory look by an untrained eye might think that's the same thing, but it is not the same thing at all. It comes with seals but no spacers. The seals, when placed two on each side of the bearing do not actually cover all of the inner ring (the "axle" of the bearing). In other words they do not seal the bearing. Our seals are captured by the aluminum spacers which results in a perfect coverage and sealing of the inner ring. In addition, our kit fits 6 or 8 mm hardware since it comes with the reducing sleeves. Not to mention our kit includes all the parts for both shock eyes. The one referenced above is for one end of the shock. Turns out our kit has over twice the parts at a much lower price (you have to double the $24.00 of the other kit and you still won't have the necessary spacers and the additional reducing sleeves).


dident dig it too much

is your kit will fit 3/8 axel like on the nomad?


----------



## SingleTrackHound (Jul 29, 2003)

DGC said:


> I just installed it on my 5 Spot...]


Great product. Can't wait to try it. Do you know if the kit comes with "custom spacer" for both upper and lower eyelet once you determine what length you need? Or does it has to be ordered seperately at additional cost?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

assaf_angel said:


> :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
> 
> dident dig it too much
> 
> is your kit will fit 3/8 axel like on the nomad?


No problem. Details really matter in this case, though. The 2010 Nomad 2 bikes are perfect match. Not sure on the earlier models, but if you have an actual 3/8" shaft or bolt going through the shock eye, that would be too large of diameter to fit through the inner ring (axle) of the needle bearing assembly.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

SingleTrackHound said:


> Great product. Can't wait to try it. Do you know if the kit comes with "custom spacer" for both upper and lower eyelet once you determine what length you need? Or does it has to be ordered seperately at additional cost?


The currently available kit was designed to fit the widest variety of frames. We provided the custom spacer guide to allow customers with frames that to not match up to have adapters machined to fit their needs locally. Obviously, our intent is to provide all of the necessary spacers in the future, but this will take some time. What frame and model year are you interested in?


----------



## SingleTrackHound (Jul 29, 2003)

First bike I want to try this conversion on is my 01 Intense Tracer. It has the original float shock that has the PUSH treatment. On occasion, I'll swap it out with Romic coil. Regardless of which shock, eyelet bushing (mainly lower) develops play within 3 months of regular riding.


----------



## cdalemaniac (Jun 18, 2007)

So, this is only for Fox shocks then?
I'd love to try one on my prophet which has a manitou swinger rear shock though....


----------



## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

cdalemaniac said:


> So, this is only for Fox shocks then?
> I'd love to try one on my prophet which has a manitou swinger rear shock though....


it will work on any shock that uses the 1/2" (12.7mm) eyelet standard. unfortunately manitou uses 12mm eyelets so no go.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

cdalemaniac said:


> So, this is only for Fox shocks then?
> I'd love to try one on my prophet which has a manitou swinger rear shock though....


Fox, Marzocchi, Romic, 5th Element Coils, Avalanche and I guess the RS Vivid have 1/2" eyelets and can use the Enduro kit.

Some RS earlier models (10mm?), Manitous (12mm), 5th Air (3/8" spherical bearings), Cane Creek and DT Swiss use different hardware.


----------



## rsvrjimbo02 (Jul 11, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> The currently available kit was designed to fit the widest variety of frames. We provided the custom spacer guide to allow customers with frames that to not match up to have adapters machined to fit their needs locally. Obviously, our intent is to provide all of the necessary spacers in the future, but this will take some time. What frame and model year are you interested in?


Chris2fur, 
I have an '09 Intense Tracer. Upper width is 24.4mm x 6 mm bolt, lower is 41mm x 6mm bolt. Upper spacers would need to be 1.28mm each and the lower spacers would need to be 9.58mm each by my math. Can you do these dimensions? If so, I'll be calling Monday!

Jim


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dave, Chris, it looks great. I might get one for my Turner 5 spot prototype. For testing purposes

Here's a direct link to the website:
http://enduroforkseals.com/id275.html


----------



## willie b (Jun 25, 2006)

*Me too...*



> The currently available kit was designed to fit the widest variety of frames. We provided the custom spacer guide to allow customers with frames that to not match up to have adapters machined to fit their needs locally. Obviously, our intent is to provide all of the necessary spacers in the future, but this will take some time. What frame and model year are you interested in?


I have an e-mail into Enduro. I hope to have an answer on Monday as well.:thumbsup: My bike is an '05 Giant Reign with a Roco Air Shock (0.5" eye). At least I know why my bike was not even listed, it came with a Manitou rear shock.


----------



## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

Are there any cautions on suspension types or specific bikes that are NOT suited for this kind of setup? Or can they be universally used (as long as they fit per the sizing info of 1/2" eyelets, 6 or 8mm bolts and 21.84/85 mm width)? How are they in handling axial loads (think that's the right term)? I have been eyeing these but not sure how well they'd work on my bikes that could fit them. Sure wouldn't mind eliminating du bushings and aluminum hats I'm using now...


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Bikinfoolferlife said:


> Are there any cautions on suspension types or specific bikes that are NOT suited for this kind of setup? Or can they be universally used (as long as they fit per the sizing info of 1/2" eyelets, 6 or 8mm bolts and 21.84/85 mm width)? How are they in handling axial loads (think that's the right term)? I have been eyeing these but not sure how well they'd work on my bikes that could fit them. Sure wouldn't mind eliminating du bushings and aluminum hats I'm using now...


They will be best on designs which need no or minimal spacers either side. Some bikes, like my wife's intense, have about a 68mm long pin through the shock eye. This length causes a high bending load on the pin which isn't well resisted by mutiple piece sleeve. This situation is where the normal fox type top-hat reducers perform particularly poorly. To get decent bushing life requires a continuous half inch diameter (stainless) steel pin.

But for the bikes out there which use sane-length shock pins (all but a few), this will be a great upgrade.
I hope Chris can keep up with demand.:thumbsup:


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Dave, Chris, it looks great. I might get one for my Turner 5 spot prototype. For testing purposes
> 
> Here's a direct link to the website:
> http://enduroforkseals.com/id275.html


Turner 5 spot prototype?


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Sick, I will order a kit soon


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> Turner 5 spot prototype?


Yes, basically a Turner RFX built with the geometry and tubeset to test the original 5 spot concept of a long travel horst link trailbike. As featured in magazine ads of the day.
When the production 5 spots were ready, DGC passed it along to me. 5 or so years later it's still my bike of choice. 
But it runs 6" rockers, it took a few years for suitable forks to arrive on the market.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Yes, basically a Turner RFX built with the geometry and tubeset to test the original 5 spot concept of a long travel horst link trailbike. As featured in magazine ads of the day.
> When the production 5 spots were ready, DGC passed it along to me. 5 or so years later it's still my bike of choice.
> But it runs 6" rockers, it took a few years for suitable forks to arrive on the market.


Cool. Definitely a perfect application.


----------



## nightnerd (Mar 5, 2007)

Hey Chris,
If I read your chart well, this kit will not fit on a 2008 Giant Reign X1? If so, too bad, I would really like to tr it out...


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

nightnerd said:


> Hey Chris,
> If I read your chart well, this kit will not fit on a 2008 Giant Reign X1? If so, too bad, I would really like to tr it out...


Sorry, not "as is." We'll have more "drop-in" options in the future.


----------



## nightnerd (Mar 5, 2007)

That's really too bad... Anyway, keep us posted when the new options will be available!


----------



## eyescream (Feb 11, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> Sorry, not "as is." We'll have more "drop-in" options in the future.


Chris, I am trying to determine if the kit will fit in my 2008 Yeti 575 with RP23...the chart on your site only has numbers in one box, does that mean the kit will only work on one end of the shock? Or that they are the same on both ends?


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

eyescream said:


> Chris, I am trying to determine if the kit will fit in my 2008 Yeti 575 with RP23...the chart on your site only has numbers in one box, does that mean the kit will only work on one end of the shock? Or that they are the same on both ends?


Doesn't the dogbone end of the 575 use special hardware?
Maybe that's why.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Warp said:


> Doesn't the dogbone end of the 575 use special hardware?
> Maybe that's why.


This would be a good one to figure out. I have heard several reports on frequent DU bushing wear on this frame. Maybe I can get my hands on a frame and figure it out.


----------



## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

Warp said:


> Doesn't the dogbone end of the 575 use special hardware?
> Maybe that's why.


the exploded view on the yeti site shows the shock uses a du bush/top hat reducer setup pinched between the dogbone/swingarm interface - looks pretty standard. it is only 15mm at the dogbone end though so the enduro kit as is won't work.


----------



## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

Can I install this setup with the DU tool I have already? It's the one that one of the MTBR members machines and sells on the BST. Very nice, but not as nice as the tool you show on the webpage. I want one right now...


----------



## DGC (Jan 12, 2004)

*the bike*



Dougal said:


> Yes, basically a Turner RFX built with the geometry and tubeset to test the original 5 spot concept of a long travel horst link trailbike. As featured in magazine ads of the day.
> When the production 5 spots were ready, DGC passed it along to me. 5 or so years later it's still my bike of choice.
> But it runs 6" rockers, it took a few years for suitable forks to arrive on the market.


Just a few pictures from that proto type era to the 5 Spot.


----------



## DGC (Jan 12, 2004)

*mag ad*



DGC said:


> Just a few pictures from that proto type era to the 5 Spot.


here is the mag ad picture of the prototype.

That was May of 2003...........time flies when your having fun.


----------



## vitamindimo (Jul 25, 2008)

Chris,

Looking at your SHOCK EYE NEEDLE BEARING KIT for my 2010 Reign X0, I see it's only compatible with the REDUCER SHAFT part (and not REDUCER BODY). Is this something that can be addressed with custom spacers? Unfortunately it's the body mount that causes the problems on this bike, seems the top hats are prone to tuning within the DU and the DU wears out prematurely.

BTW, what does 'DU' stand for?


----------



## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

I think DU stands for dupont urethane.


----------



## Scotth72 (Mar 15, 2004)

Dry Unlubricated.


----------



## General Hickey (Jan 6, 2008)

Dirty Underwear


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Domesticated Urethane


----------



## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

I just ordered two sets, one for the Firebird and one for the Mach 5, so i'll see how they go.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

vitamindimo said:


> Chris,
> 
> Looking at your SHOCK EYE NEEDLE BEARING KIT for my 2010 Reign X0, I see it's only compatible with the REDUCER SHAFT part (and not REDUCER BODY). Is this something that can be addressed with custom spacers? Unfortunately it's the body mount that causes the problems on this bike, seems the top hats are prone to tuning within the DU and the DU wears out prematurely.
> 
> BTW, what does 'DU' stand for?


The above was answered to the OP via email, but for others who may be interested, the 2010 Reign X series frames are compatible with our kit on the upper shock mount (between the rockers). This is where the most rotation/wear occurs, so the kit will be useful in this application. The lower shock mount is integrated with an "axle" that passes through the lower link front bearings. See pics below that show the rocker link is compatible (Nominal 22mm between rocker arms) while the bottom is not. Obviously, we will start making the the needle bearing kits availble singly, the Reign X would only require 1/2 of the kit... Thanks to Luc "Acadian" Albert for the pics.


----------



## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

Chris2fur said:


> The above was answered to the OP via email, but for others who may be interested, the 2010 Reign X series frames are compatible with our kit on the upper shock mount (between the rockers). This is where the most rotation/wear occurs, so the kit will be useful in this application. The lower shock mount is integrated with an "axle" that passes through the lower link front bearings. See pics below that show the rocker link is compatible (Nominal 22mm between rocker arms) while the bottom is not. Obviously, we will start making the the needle bearing kits availble singly, the Reign X would only require 1/2 of the kit... Thanks to Luc "Acadian" Albert for the pics.


chris,
i see you've updated your site to only list frames that can utilize the bearings at both ends of the shock. how soon do you anticipate offering single eyelet kits?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

[quote='size]chris,
i see you've updated your site to only list frames that can utilize the bearings at both ends of the shock. how soon do you anticipate offering single eyelet kits?[/quote]

Yeah, people were having trouble interpreting the chart, so we decided to only list the frames that were a fit at both ends of the shock. We'll try to have the single eyelet kits (and another chart) for the bikes that can utilize the needle bearing kit at one end of the shock in about two weeks.


----------



## ban (Jul 24, 2004)

so is it worth to fit the kit in both eyelets?? 


Chris2fur said:


> Yeah, people were having trouble interpreting the chart, so we decided to only list the frames that were a fit at both ends of the shock. We'll try to have the single eyelet kits (and another chart) for the bikes that can utilize the needle bearing kit at one end of the shock in about two weeks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

ban said:


> so is it worth to fit the kit in both eyelets??


The biggest benefit is obtained at the shock end where the most rotation takes place. When both ends can be done, this is even better. Here are some examples for clarificaion:

1) Turner 5 Spot (all years): Fits at both ends. Ideal for our kit.

2) Giant Reign X (pics in previous post above): While the bottom cannot be converted, the end with the most rotation (rocker arm end) is a fit, so this works out well. As stated previously, we will soon start offering the kit on a "per eyelet" basis to cover this situation.

3) Ventana El Saltamontes: Tne only end of the shock that is currently compatible with our present kit is the frame mounted end with the lowest degree of rotation. The rocker arm end is not currently a fit for our kit. In this case, it is not really worth the change. When we release more options, we hope to cover the entire Ventana line.


----------



## ban (Jul 24, 2004)

my Blur LT2 is suitable to be fitted with your kit so I'll be running your kit sooner or later :thumbsup: :thumbsup: just waiting to see it in stock in Chain Reaction Cycles in the UK to reduce shipping costs mainly!   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 


Chris2fur said:


> The biggest benefit is obtained at the shock end where the most rotation takes place. When both ends can be done, this is even better. Here are some examples for clarificaion:
> 
> 1) Turner 5 Spot (all years): Fits at both ends. Ideal for our kit.
> 
> ...


----------



## ban (Jul 24, 2004)

opps, btw I forgot to mention that, it's not my case as I use an air shock but may be somebody should be interested in knowing that with the new kit, it's possible you have to raise you spring rate if you are running a coil shock due to less friction with the new bearing kit?? maybe Chris can confirm that....


----------



## cjn1014 (Jul 28, 2007)

been following this on a parallel thread on the turner board, any more ride reports from other users?


----------



## Grey_Wolf (Dec 19, 2007)

Also would like to hear seem feedback, particularly on how much difference in suspension feel there is after. I guess it depends on how much the shock rotates, but would it generally allow the rear suspension to perform noticeably better?


----------



## santacruzflyer (Feb 7, 2010)

[QUOTE=Chris2fur Not to mention our kit includes all the parts for both shock eyes. The one referenced above is for one end of the shock. Turns out our kit has over twice the parts at a much lower price (you have to double the $24.00 of the other kit 


Looking at the Enduro site you only get one set of bearings to fit one eyelet for $22. From the website:

NBKRWC22 $21.99 



- 0.50" SHOCK EYELETS
-NOMINAL FACE-TO-FACE SHOCK REDUCER WIDTH OF 22mm 
-6mm OR 8mm BOLT
(INCLUDES PARTS FOR ONE SHOCK "EYE")


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

santacruzflyer said:


> Chris2fur Not to mention our kit includes all the parts for both shock eyes. The one referenced above is for one end of the shock. Turns out our kit has over twice the parts at a much lower price (you have to double the $24.00 of the other kit
> Looking at the Enduro site you only get one set of bearings to fit one eyelet for $22. From the website:
> NBKRWC22 $21.99
> - 0.50" SHOCK EYELETS
> ...


----------



## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

Chris, when are you coming out with kits that aren't 22mm or 40mm? Or will you be including spacers for spacings that are a little larger than these sizes? Thanks?


----------



## orangeskill (Nov 2, 2009)

installed on my enduro (02-06 frames) when i changed to an rp23 (7.5x2). One of the bushings, the one that sees alot of movement was extremely stiff in the rp23- and didnt break in. The bearings made a MAJOR difference. It was immediately noticeable. While it didnt change my sag- I had to increase the air pressure in my shock to prevent blowing through travel with the decreased friction. I also get more pedal bob now... (may have to increase propedal from 1 to 2). 

it was worth the $50. i want to point out that my DU bishing was defective or something- not normal stiff. I doubt this upgrade would make as big a change with good normal DU bushings. 

on another note: I had a bike shop remove/install the DU and bearings. they charged me 25$. I find that ridiculous- be warned. I normally do all my own work and am not accustomed to paying a shop... (worked as a bike mechanic for 2 years).


----------



## Jdub (Jan 12, 2004)

orangeskill said:


> on another note: I had a bike shop remove/install the DU and bearings. they charged me 25$. I find that ridiculous- be warned. I normally do all my own work and am not accustomed to paying a shop... (worked as a bike mechanic for 2 years).


Get yourself one of these:
http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showproduct.php?product=46809&cat=

I bought one, really nice product and great price too. I have a small bench vise that I use with it, makes it super easy to remove / install DU bushings.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Cable0guy said:


> Chris, when are you coming out with kits that aren't 22mm or 40mm? Or will you be including spacers for spacings that are a little larger than these sizes? Thanks?


Last question first...Yes, we will have stainless shims for 1-2mm differences in spans. We have many more sizes coming over the next few months.


----------



## TORO1968 (Oct 9, 2005)

Chris,

Do you have anything that will fit an '05 Kona Dawg?

Thanks!


----------



## schneidie (Aug 30, 2008)

The second the 40mm kits become available, I will be ordering one.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

TORO1968 said:


> Chris,
> 
> Do you have anything that will fit an '05 Kona Dawg?
> 
> Thanks!


Apparently that frame has a rocker span of 45.72mm. We don't have that one on the short list, but it will be gotten to over the next few months.


----------



## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

I put one of these kits in the top rocker arm position of my spesh pitch pro. I haven't had much of a chance to ride it yet because of injury. It was extremly tough to push the bearing into the eyelet and the movement wasn't as smooth as I was expecting. it seems to be smoother on certain positions than others. 

Also the shaft that goes through the needle bearing seems to be a very tight fit post bearing install to the eyelet. Like I have to press really hard to move it laterally through the needle bearing. Is this normal?


----------



## orangeskill (Nov 2, 2009)

mine was not like this. maybe the shock eyelet or bearing are a little out of tolerance and caused the shaft to be too tight. the shaft slid right in with my installation.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

minimusprime said:


> I put one of these kits in the top rocker arm position of my spesh pitch pro. I haven't had much of a chance to ride it yet because of injury. It was extremly tough to push the bearing into the eyelet and the movement wasn't as smooth as I was expecting. it seems to be smoother on certain positions than others.
> 
> Also the shaft that goes through the needle bearing seems to be a very tight fit post bearing install to the eyelet. Like I have to press really hard to move it laterally through the needle bearing. Is this normal?


No, not normal. The first indication of a problem is your statement that "It was extremely tough to push the bearing into the eyelet." This indicates a tolerance problem. If the shock eyelet is not manufactured to proper tolerances the bearing gets compressed and the inner ring (axle) clearance will be affected, as you described. The inner ring should slip right through needle bearing after it's installed. We can send another needle bearing for you to try. If the results are the same, you will need to have the shock eye polished out. Sounds weird, but you would be surprised how many parts are not manufactured to spec. I've got a shock with one of the eyelets machined too large from the factory. Contact me ([email protected]) so we can get you another bearing to try.


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

*Shock Eyelet Size and Tolerance*



minimusprime said:


> I put one of these kits in the top rocker arm position of my spesh pitch pro. I haven't had much of a chance to ride it yet because of injury. It was extremly tough to push the bearing into the eyelet and the movement wasn't as smooth as I was expecting. it seems to be smoother on certain positions than others.
> 
> Also the shaft that goes through the needle bearing seems to be a very tight fit post bearing install to the eyelet. Like I have to press really hard to move it laterally through the needle bearing. Is this normal?


I second what Chris stated. Another item if this was a used shock and if you ever used the shock when it had play in the DU Bushings for an extended period of time could cause the eyelets to go out of round. I've seen this before. I've also seen reducers from both Fox and Rock Shox out of spec from what the Bushing manufacture states a usable shaft size.


----------



## santacruzflyer (Feb 7, 2010)

I purchased two sets of the bearings to go on my '08 Superlight. The bearing went in nice and easy in the shaft eyelet, no problems. After installing the bearing in the body eyelet, had some problems getting the axle into the bearing. Emailed Chris at Enduro and he said there could be a problem with the tolerance of the shaft bore. With out knowing if the problem was with the bearing or the shock. Chris sent out a new bearing right away. While I was waiting for the new bearing I rode the bike with just the one bearing. It is on the end that gets the most movement and I could definitely tell an improvement. More shock movement and easier to move. When the new bearing showed up I whipped out my dremel and a sand barrel and buffing pad, worked on the body eyelet. Using the old bearing as a guide, smoothed out the bore until the old bearing would install smoothly. Installed the new bearing slid in the new axle and I was ready to go. Santa Cruz should do this as factory. Definitely smoother with better hook up and rear triangle movement. I have been riding a Superlight since 2000, with the current frame since early 2009. 
As a side note, After I purchased the bearings(I also bought some seals, the bearing install tool) and had received them, I saw on the website the 10% off for orders over $150. I emailed Chris and RWC refunded my 10% after I had already received my stuff. They sure didn't have to do that. Thanks. I will be back to purchase more for sure.


----------



## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Apparently the Australian importer doesn't bring these in?


----------



## .40AET (Jun 7, 2007)

Chris2fur- I just pulled all of the bearings from my Epiphany and upgraded to Enduro bearings for the suspension parts. I looked at the list of supported models for the shock needle bearings and did not see the Epiphany listed. Is there a set that fits, or do you have one on the drawing board for the future?

Thanks!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Apparently the Australian importer doesn't bring these in?


These kits are "RWC" (Real World Cycling) designed and distributed products.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

.40AET said:


> Chris2fur- I just pulled all of the bearings from my Epiphany and upgraded to Enduro bearings for the suspension parts. I looked at the list of supported models for the shock needle bearings and did not see the Epiphany listed. Is there a set that fits, or do you have one on the drawing board for the future?
> 
> Thanks!


Ellsworth kits should be ready in about a month....


----------



## .40AET (Jun 7, 2007)

Chris2fur said:


> Ellsworth kits should be ready in about a month....


Thanks!! Put me down for one when they are ready. :thumbsup:


----------



## d-bug (Mar 18, 2005)

Chris,
Is the 40mm version going to have some additional beefiness? 
I have a Mojo, and the shaft end is 40mm and has a long bolt that goes through it. After some heavy riding and big jumps the bolt can get slightly bent. When it gets bent it doesn't slide out as smoothly, and I sometimes need to tap it out from the opposite side.

BTW, your shock chart might have the bearing kit parts mixed up for the Mojo. It shows the shaft end as needing the 22mm and the body end as needing the 40mm. Should be the other way around, unless we have different thoughts on what the shaft and body are.


----------



## IRONMAN1518 (Jul 19, 2008)

Chris, 
SWEET looking design!! WoW! When i showed the pics to my wife and shwed her what my bike come with (bushings) she asked the simple question:"Why didn't your bike come with those?"...............Uh I was speechless.........I told her I guessed it was the cost of the new beating kits and the installation???
I have an '09 Orbea Oiz I JUST took my top bushings off to look at them they were dry.........I regreased. But I could not see how to remove the bottom busshing. I took out the two screws on the ends of the bottom bushing, but that was as far as I could go........is the bottom bushing pressed into the rear "Link" with such a high "negative clearance"?
I sure want to get the needle bearing kits but because I could not get the bottom bushing out of the link I'm not syure what to do?? Thanks!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

dan51 said:


> Chris,
> Is the 40mm version going to have some additional beefiness?
> I have a Mojo, and the shaft end is 40mm and has a long bolt that goes through it. After some heavy riding and big jumps the bolt can get slightly bent. When it gets bent it doesn't slide out as smoothly, and I sometimes need to tap it out from the opposite side.
> 
> BTW, your shock chart might have the bearing kit parts mixed up for the Mojo. It shows the shaft end as needing the 22mm and the body end as needing the 40mm. Should be the other way around, unless we have different thoughts on what the shaft and body are.


The 40mm kit is a well-designed unit as far as strength goes. The spacers will overlap and capture the steel inner ring, but the same bolt you use now will be re-used in this application.

When running the typical RP23 you are right about the body and shaft. However, if running a DHX Air, it would be the opposite. It might be better for us to list the kit references under "static frame mount" and "pivot mount" since many shocks can be flipped. Of course not all frames would fit this description, but most would.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

IRONMAN1518 said:


> Chris,
> SWEET looking design!! WoW! When i showed the pics to my wife and shwed her what my bike come with (bushings) she asked the simple question:"Why didn't your bike come with those?"...............Uh I was speechless.........I told her I guessed it was the cost of the new beating kits and the installation???
> I have an '09 Orbea Oiz I JUST took my top bushings off to look at them they were dry.........I regreased. But I could not see how to remove the bottom busshing. I took out the two screws on the ends of the bottom bushing, but that was as far as I could go........is the bottom bushing pressed into the rear "Link" with such a high "negative clearance"?
> I sure want to get the needle bearing kits but because I could not get the bottom bushing out of the link I'm not syure what to do?? Thanks!


Hmm. If you took out "two screws at the ends of the bottom bushing" but the shock would not pull out, I'm guessing that there may be a metal sleeve threaded at each end (for the screws) and that after you remove the screws, you should partly thread one back in and tap on it to start the sleeve/axle pin out. When this center sleeve/axle is removed, the shock should pull right out of the center of the linkage. Does this make sense? Keep in mind I'm guessing here based on what you said. I don't have a parts blow-up of this frame model.


----------



## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Chris2fur said:


> These kits are "RWC" (Real World Cycling) designed and distributed products.


Ah, my mistake. Thanks.


----------



## sazaks (Oct 5, 2004)

I'm about to intall my kit on the bike. The kit come with a little pack of grease and I'm wondering if it's to be used during the install or for regreasing the bearing after some use. Are there any install instructions?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

sazaks said:


> I'm about to intall my kit on the bike. The kit come with a little pack of grease and I'm wondering if it's to be used during the install or for regreasing the bearing after some use. Are there any install instructions?


If you scroll down and read the details on the relevant web page, we mention the lube that is included: "A small amount of our best bearing lube, _Realube Bearing Compound_ is included for prepping the needle bearing and initial lubrication of the spacer seals." Basically, spread the grease inside the needle bearing, on the inner ring ("axle"), and on the faces of the seals. Wipe off the excess after everything is assembled.

Thanks!


----------



## DavidNeiles (May 8, 2008)

Chris, I have a 09 Diamondback Sortie, is there a kit available, I know the size is 22mm by 6mm top and bottom.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

DavidNeiles said:


> Chris, I have a 09 Diamondback Sortie, is there a kit available, I know the size is 22mm by 6mm top and bottom.


We did not have any 2009 data, but it makes sense that it's the same as the 08 models. Just don't like to assume... Since you know each end has a span of 22mm, then the NBKRWC22 is the correct kit for either end. Obviously the most rotation takes place at the KB connection. I've seen pics of the Knucklebox design, but never seen it in action, so I don't know how much pivoting takes place at the upper frame mount. If the shock does not pivot at that end, you may want to just convert the other end.


----------



## DavidNeiles (May 8, 2008)

Thanks, yes the 07-09 would be the same for a Mission or Sortie. The bottom one at the Knuckle Box is where it moves a lot and gets some play, stock DU bushing lasted over a year. Top is fine.


----------



## IRONMAN1518 (Jul 19, 2008)

Chris
Thanks for the info you were correct, it is a threaded sleeve in my Orbea. I called them and they said the same thing. It is pressed in the bushings. I got it out, cleaned it, re-greased it, locktiteed the screws and tightened them. 
I dunno if it is all inna my head but the rear end felt "smoother" than before......thanks again!!


----------



## retro83 (Sep 15, 2008)

Does this work with RockShox rear shocks e.g. the Monarch (which I understand also use 1/2inch bushings) ?

I read the posts above about working with any 1/2in shock, but noticed there are not any RS shocks on the compatibilty list on the Enduro site.

Thanks


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

retro83 said:


> Does this work with RockShox rear shocks e.g. the Monarch (which I understand also use 1/2inch bushings) ?
> 
> I read the posts above about working with any 1/2in shock, but noticed there are not any RS shocks on the compatibilty list on the Enduro site.
> 
> Thanks


Yes, the Monarch and Vivid are the only RS shocks that have the same shock eye spec as the Fox, so they will work.


----------



## retro83 (Sep 15, 2008)

> Yes, the Monarch and Vivid are the only RS shocks that have the same shock eye spec as the Fox, so they will work.


Great, thanks very much!


----------



## oldskoolbiker (Jun 2, 2005)

Just got mine, great product.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Edit: post content no longer relevant.


----------



## 3xv (Dec 27, 2005)

Chris2fur-Any news if a kit will be made for '07-09 Specialized Enduro SL's? (specifically carbon frame (Al and carbon frames in this series use diff. lower bushings)). Thanks :thumbsup:


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

3xv said:


> Chris2fur-Any news if a kit will be made for '07-09 Specialized Enduro SL's? (specifically carbon frame (Al and carbon frames in this series use diff. lower bushings)). Thanks :thumbsup:


 It's not in our database, but if you can get accurate measurements at these two points on the bike, we will know if we can do it or not:


----------



## 3xv (Dec 27, 2005)

Chris- Thank you for your immediate response. As soon as I get home I'll bust out the caliper and measure indicated areas in the illustration. Thanks again. Have a great weekend ahead. :thumbsup:


----------



## oldskoolbiker (Jun 2, 2005)

Posted in wrong forum, please disregard.


----------



## dereka15 (Nov 10, 2009)

would this kit fit my 08 Turner DHR w/RS Vivid or does it only work with Fox?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

dereka15 said:


> would this kit fit my 08 Turner DHR w/RS Vivid or does it only work with Fox?


That's a match. Unlike other RS shocks, the Vivid and Monarch shocks have the same size eyelets as the Fox shocks.


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Anyone has found some play between the supplied steel axle and the needle bearings? 

A friend of mine and me feel some play (like a worn DU bushing knock) when we pick up the bike from the saddle slightly.

Chris has told me it is normal, but I just want to know from others what their experience has been.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Anyone has found some play between the supplied steel axle and the needle bearings?
> 
> A friend of mine and me feel some play (like a worn DU bushing knock) when we pick up the bike from the saddle slightly.
> 
> Chris has told me it is normal, but I just want to know from others what their experience has been.


Geez, tacubaya--thanks for the vote of confidence....

For the record, clearances are designed into the needle bearing/inner ring unit. If they were not, binding and damage to the rollers and/or inner ring would occur. The small amount of detectible play is part of the near frictionless performance of the needle bearing system. Incidentally, the play referred to will never be discernable under riding conditions, only if you are off the bike, lifting up on the saddle. If this keeps certain individuals from sleeping, a heavier grease could be used.


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Hey Chris, thanks for the response.

I am confident in what you say, but I just want to know the experience from others. Your explanation is logical and polite, so I am not in the need of defying it nor denying it. 

There is supposed to be some play between the steel axle and needles, but what if the eyelet dimensions are increasing/decreasing this amount of play?

How should we know when the eyelet dimensions are correct and the play we are getting is the "right one", and when is the eyelet a bit too large and we are getting some more play than what is meant for?

That's my hypothesis. It seems eyelet tolerances are a big factor on the needle bearing performance and there is no reference to compare the play in the interface to.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Hey Chris, thanks for the response.
> 
> I am confident in what you say, but I just want to know the experience from others. Your explanation is logical and polite, so I am not in the need of defying it nor denying it.
> 
> ...


OK, I see. We did not talk about that. Generally speaking, eyelet tolerances only affect the performance if they are undersized and compress the needle bearing. This can certainly happen. I assume that the needle bearing required pressing into place as opposed to sliding into the eyelet by hand, right? If so, then you are good to go. The problem would be if the needle bearing cup were compressed enough to remove the play. In fact I am running a needle bearing kit on Rocco shock that had an oversized eyelet and required Loctite to retain the bearing cup in the shock eye. It works very well with no ill effects. On the other hand, if the cup were compressed and any binding on the inner ring could be detected, the shock eye would need to be enlarged using a Dremel sanding drum.

The quest to remove all play from bearings causes problems in all sorts of applications. We especially encounter it with wheels, where overzealous "adjusting" not only slows the wheel down but wears the bearings prematurely.


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

It seems the Roco shocks have over sized eyelets because my friend's shock and my shock is a Roco. He pushed the bearing almost by hand and I used a bench vice but it came in easily. 

But, wouldn't the excess play cause the forces generated in suspension activity to flatten or damage the needles?


----------



## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

What about the newest redesigned Cane Creek Double Barrel? 

I have not measured the diameter of the eyelets, but they seem to be the same size as my Roco.  

I heard a rumor that they reduced the size to the 1/2 inch standard is this correct? 

If the newest CCDB is not 1/2 standard, then does RWC plan on making a reducer for the CCDB? 

The bushings in mine are so damn tight I can hardly push the shafts out.  :madmax:


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> It seems the Roco shocks have over sized eyelets because my friend's shock and my shock is a Roco. He pushed the bearing almost by hand and I used a bench vice but it came in easily.
> 
> But, wouldn't the excess play cause the forces generated in suspension activity to flatten or damage the needles?


You are presuming to use the word "excess." As I have already stated, there is far more risk of damaging the rollers when there is not enough clearance. How about putting some good trail miles on the bike and let me know how you like the performance? What do you have to lose? If I am wrong and the bearings are damaged, I'll be happy to refund your money or send new ones.


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Chris2fur said:


> You are presuming to use the word "excess." As I have already stated, there is far more risk of damaging the rollers when there is not enough clearance. How about putting some good trail miles on the bike and let me know how you like the performance? What do you have to lose? If I am wrong and the bearings are damaged, I'll be happy to refund your money or send new ones.


Well, the needle bearing has about 45 miles already, and I am NOT criticizing the performance (as I can't feel the play while riding), just the fact that I am picky and I don't like picking my bike up and feeling play, especially the horrible feeling that there is a worn DU busing down there.

So don't feel I am attacking your product Chris, it works... and it works very well. I am just pointing out that some play is felt in the linkage and I wanted to know if other users feel it as well (not because I don't trust you, but because I am curious).  

Thanks for all the attention you've given me Chris, definitely you give good quality customer service! :thumbsup:


----------



## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

Chris, I see that the new sizes are up on the website. What do I do if I have sizes like 34mm and 43mm? Spacers/washers? Will these be included if so? Thanks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Cable0guy said:


> Chris, I see that the new sizes are up on the website. What do I do if I have sizes like 34mm and 43mm? Spacers/washers? Will these be included if so? Thanks.


We will have 0.5mm stainless shims specific for 6mm or 8mm hardware that can be used to adapt for spans that fall between our standard kits. They will be available separately. We hope to eventually have most sizes covered without shims being required.

Here's an example of how to use the shims with our 40mm kit to adapt to your 43mm span (3 shims on each side--a bit tricky to assemble):


----------



## loonyOne (Dec 25, 2003)

Chris2fur said:


> We will have 0.5mm stainless shims specific for 6mm or 8mm hardware that can be used to adapt for spans that fall between our standard kits. They will be available separately. We hope to eventually have most sizes covered without shims being required.
> 
> Here's an example of how to use the shims with our 40mm kit to adapt to your 43mm span (3 shims on each side--a bit tricky to assemble):


So, when will the 40mm kits be available? Don't know how much longer I can stand to wait. (2K Intense Tracer Vanilla RL).


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

loonyOne said:


> So, when will the 40mm kits be available? Don't know how much longer I can stand to wait. (2K Intense Tracer Vanilla RL).


Next week for sure. I'll post here when they are up.


----------



## loonyOne (Dec 25, 2003)

Chris2fur said:


> Next week for sure. I'll post here when they are up.


10-4 pal!


----------



## bbgobie (Apr 20, 2006)

I had some trouble installing my bearings. The eyelet of my RP2 were too small on both ends. Some light sanding and help from Chris and I got at least one end installed as the 2nd bearing I pressed in too hard apparently and it now binds on the inner bar. But with the roller installed on just one end of the shock it certainly does seem to move more freely. Seems there might be a bit more traction when climbing steep rough stuff as the suspension is more easily moved in those slow movements, and it just seems kinda more plush while riding. Hard to explain. Could be a bit of the placebo. Who knows.

I'm happy and Chris has provided excellent support for his products.
In fact I'm also happy with the wheel bearings and BB I ordered from him as well!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

bbgobie said:


> I had some trouble installing my bearings. The eyelet of my RP2 were too small on both ends. Some light sanding and help from Chris and I got at least one end installed as the 2nd bearing I pressed in too hard apparently and it now binds on the inner bar. But with the roller installed on just one end of the shock it certainly does seem to move more freely. Seems there might be a bit more traction when climbing steep rough stuff as the suspension is more easily moved in those slow movements, and it just seems kinda more plush while riding. Hard to explain. Could be a bit of the placebo. Who knows.
> 
> I'm happy and Chris has provided excellent support for his products.
> In fact I'm also happy with the wheel bearings and BB I ordered from him as well!


Thanks. Did we not send a replacement for the bearing that got compressed? If not, contact me: [email protected]


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

*40mm Kit Now Available*

Our 40mm Kit is now available: http://enduroforkseals.com/id275.html

If you don't see the new "Add to Cart" button, be sure and "refresh" the page.


----------



## SingleTrackHound (Jul 29, 2003)

Chris,
where are those 0.5mm spacers for those who need 41mm setup?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

SingleTrackHound said:


> Chris,
> where are those 0.5mm spacers for those who need 41mm setup?


They are in the process of being put into pairs, bagged, and tagged. Coming soon...


----------



## Corvette (Nov 20, 2005)

Chris, any plans to introduce needle bearing kit for Manitou shocks? Thanks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Corvette said:


> Chris, any plans to introduce needle bearing kit for Manitou shocks? Thanks.


Not immediately, but when we make some headway on all the 1/2" options, we will definitely branch out.


----------



## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

Ok little update. I had bought a needle bearing kit and once pressed in... the movement of the shaft within the bearing and the bearing movement itself was pretty notchy and bad. After posting on this thread chris2fur contacted me and got my contact info to send me a new bearing and shaft free of charge. 

I finally got around to getting it on the bike and the new setup is working perfectly. Very little effort to move the shock within the needle bearing. So far it seems to have improved the rear suspension a decent amount... especially for the cost of entry of getting it installed. I currently have it on the upper rocker arm link of the specialized pitch pro. I think i'm going to pickup a second kit for the lower suspension hook up. Initially I didn't think it would work but I think it will fit just fine. I'm going to measure it tonight.

I want to thank chris for his awesome customer service... especially since he contacted me not the other way around. I offered to pull the bearing apart and figure it out be he went the extra mile and just said... no need to fool with it I'll send a new one out.

So long story short, great product and notable difference especially for the price... and awesome CS. Thanks chris!!!


----------



## Rock Climber (Jul 25, 2007)

minimusprime said:


> I think i'm going to pickup a second kit for the lower suspension hook up.


Post up a review when you do the lower I'm about to order the top one, but wasn't sure how much difference the lower one would make.


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Hey Chris, here is a photo for your website if you want to use it... 1.2 mm washers on both sides


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Hey Chris, here is a photo for your website if you want to use it... 1.2 mm washers on both sides


The shims would match the OD of the spacers in the kit and might look a bit cleaner, but proper function is the main thing. Also, you'd have to stack a few of the shims on each side while working the bolt through, which would be a bit of a hassle. So, stock washers ended up being a good fit ("capture" the inner ring between them)?


----------



## Supra_Zeke (Jan 21, 2010)

*Bearing Dimensions?*

Finally! I have been wondering why all the frame pivots use real bearings but
the shock eyes use stupid DU bearings for years! These look like the deal!

I have been using PEEK bushings from mcmaster-carr for years and they seem
to last longer and run smoother than DU bushings but the needle bearings are 
definitely the way to go.

One big question for those that have installed this kit - is the bearing 
width 0.5"? That is, is the bearing a direct replacement for the 19/32" OD 0.5"
wide DU bushing in the shaft end? Looks like it, but I cannot tell from the online 
writeup and pictures. I have a '04 stumpy FSR and the shock link is only 5/8" 
(15.9mm) wide so the bearing plus washer/shim stack has to be pretty slim.

I can figure out how to grind down a too-long axle and find some 0.5" ID teflon washers
for spacers, but a too-wide bearing is a showstopper. Won't be as nice as the 22mm+
kits with spacers and o-rings but should be a MAJOR improvement over the DU 
bushing shuffle.

Keep up the good work RWC!

Cheers,

Zeke


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Supra_Zeke said:


> Finally! I have been wondering why all the frame pivots use real bearings but
> the shock eyes use stupid DU bearings for years! These look like the deal!
> 
> I have been using PEEK bushings from mcmaster-carr for years and they seem
> ...


Hi Zeke

It's your lucky day, I happen to have on my desk one of the RWC needle bearing kits and my verniers.
The bearing measures 12.55mm across, so it's slightly under the 1/2" width and won't interfere with hardware either side.
However the bore is smaller than the DU bush, the sleeve which comes with the bearing is a hair under 11mm.
I haven't tried cutting the supplied sleeve so I don't know how hard it is, my bikes take 22mm hardware so I won't need to find out.

How expensive were the PEEK bushings? I've been astounded by the price of that as raw material in the past.


----------



## Supra_Zeke (Jan 21, 2010)

Dougal,

Well, the interwebs have astonished me yet again with their responsiveness!

Great information - gonna have to order one and send it to my dad's place in the
US. I'm in Singapore and am at a distinct disadvantage as to machine tools. Will give
me something to do while visiting the fam damily in July. I'm guessing the sleeve is 
hardened, so it will be some quality time either with a carbide tool in the lathe or 
with the grinder and a can of cold water. It's what I get for having an old FS rig. At 
least the project will be loud!

The PEEK bushings I've been using are about $7 USD apiece from McMaster-Carr (no
relationship with them but they do kick a$$ - no minimum order, fast, and never seem
to screw up). Not particularly cheap, but seem to be better than the DU bushing.
Link here, should it be useful:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#6621k82/=6onscn

Much appreciated.


----------



## bbgobie (Apr 20, 2006)

Update: Sorry it took a while, but Chris did send me a new bearing and shaft. I'm pretty sure the anodizing or finish or whatever it is inside the shock eye is what made both my eyes too tight. Some light sanding and polishing and the new bearing slid in nice and easy on the press. 

Excellent movement too. 

I feel like my Giant Anthem (3.5" travel) is a lot more plush, and the suspension seems to be a lot more active over small pumps. Before I always felt with propedal on it was a little bit harsher than I wanted, now it's perfect!

Thanks a lot Chris! Great product and service!
I've already recommended it to friends


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Supra_Zeke said:


> Dougal,
> 
> Well, the interwebs have astonished me yet again with their responsiveness!
> 
> ...


Even better news: I have the hardened inner rings in 15.75mm length for Specialized. As you initially pointed out, not much room for proper sealing, but I have some matching O-rings that will do the job for now. Maybe a hardened X-ring would be better--we'll have to look at that. Anyway, I'll get the shorter kit posted up next week.


----------



## mtg7aa (Jul 11, 2008)

minimusprime said:


> After posting on this thread chris2fur contacted me and got my contact info to send me a new bearing and shaft free of charge.


Wow, that's great customer service. Chris saw you had an issue and _contacted you_ to fix the problem? That's awesome to hear considering most companies require you to waste way too much time dialing a 1-800 number just hear a response that begins with "unfortunately...".


----------



## KevinB (Oct 5, 2004)

Dougal said:


> How expensive were the PEEK bushings? I've been astounded by the price of that as raw material in the past.


McMaster part number 6621K82 are currently priced at $6.78 each.


----------



## Renegade (May 10, 2004)

Chris, I sent an e-mail to enduro bearings this morning asking if the shims necessary to make a 40mm kit work for a 43mm application are available, and how to order them as well. Is anyone at the office today?
Thanks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Renegade said:


> Chris, I sent an e-mail to enduro bearings this morning asking if the shims necessary to make a 40mm kit work for a 43mm application are available, and how to order them as well. Is anyone at the office today?
> Thanks.


Sorry, busy trying to get orders out. The shims should be up on the site next week. I'll post up to confirm.


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Chris, I see you only list "half a bearing kit" (one shock eye) for Giant Trance X and Reign X, is it just a matter of time to design the other one, or is there a reason it can't be done?


----------



## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

fsrxc said:


> Chris, I see you only list "half a bearing kit" (one shock eye) for Giant Trance X and Reign X, is it just a matter of time to design the other one, or is there a reason it can't be done?


there is no DU bushing used in the lower eyelet on these bikes.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> Chris, I see you only list "half a bearing kit" (one shock eye) for Giant Trance X and Reign X, is it just a matter of time to design the other one, or is there a reason it can't be done?


What 'size said. The lower link is part of the shock mounting system.


----------



## Supra_Zeke (Jan 21, 2010)

Chris2fur,

That is great news! I was contemplating an "o" or "x" ring plus a couple
of teflon washers. I'll be buying for sure.

Of course, now will have to come up with some other hare-brained project 
for my July trip...

Thanks.


----------



## Guest (Apr 17, 2010)

Got the bearing for the top shock mount of my Trance X. Works great.


----------



## mtg7aa (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm ready to order a set of these for my Transition Covert, but does anybody have the installation tool in Denver? I don't want to buy a $55 tool for a one-time use.


----------



## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

mtg7aa said:


> I'm ready to order a set of these for my Transition Covert, but does anybody have the installation tool in Denver? I don't want to buy a $55 tool for a one-time use.


What installation tool?


----------



## mtg7aa (Jul 11, 2008)

Bikinfoolferlife said:


> What installation tool?


This one:


----------



## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

Ok, only saw their bushing tool the last time I looked around the rwc site nor had I seen it mentioned. You likely don't absolutely have to have it, a vise and the right sockets should work just like they've done for du bushings before these specific tools came along (I've got a CTS bushing tool myself). I was looking for the tutorial for installation just now to see what rwc had to say but can't find it. Mtbr member mtnbiker4life also has a bushing tool fwiw (not to say rwc's tools aren't nice, I have their external bb tool myself).


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Bikinfoolferlife said:


> Ok, only saw their bushing tool the last time I looked around the rwc site nor had I seen it mentioned. You likely don't absolutely have to have it, a vise and the right sockets should work just like they've done for du bushings before these specific tools came along (I've got a CTS bushing tool myself). I was looking for the tutorial for installation just now to see what rwc had to say but can't find it. Mtbr member mtnbiker4life also has a bushing tool fwiw (not to say rwc's tools aren't nice, I have their external bb tool myself).


The main benefit to the needle bearing part of the tool is that the extension fits the ID of the needle bearing. This is what guarantees proper alignment during the install. As with most things, improvising is always possible, it just increases the odds that something will slip and the needle cup could get distorted. When we do our next batch of tools we will separate the DU part of the tool from the NB part of the tool so that those who already have a DU tool they are happy with can just purchase the NB tool. (This will happen when it happens and I'll post it here. Please hold the "can I just get the NB tool?" emails.")


----------



## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> The main benefit to the needle bearing part of the tool is that the extension fits the ID of the needle bearing. This is what guarantees proper alignment during the install. As with most things, improvising is always possible, it just increases the odds that something will slip and the needle cup could get distorted. When we do our next batch of tools we will separate the DU part of the tool from the NB part of the tool so that those who already have a DU tool they are happy with can just purchase the NB tool. (This will happen when it happens and I'll post it here. Please hold the "can I just get the NB tool?" emails.")


I'd definitely be interested, will keep an eye out, might time out well with my trying out the nb kit, then...still waiting to go thru my supply of du bushings/hats...are the install instructions there somewhere?


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> What 'size said. The lower link is part of the shock mounting system.


Ok, I see.

What about 07-09 Reign X, you don't list them at all?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Bikinfoolferlife said:


> I'd definitely be interested, will keep an eye out, might time out well with my trying out the nb kit, then...still waiting to go thru my supply of du bushings/hats...are the install instructions there somewhere?


Well, it's so straighforward that we just supplied some pics on tool page:

First shot is DU removal, second shot is bearing install:


----------



## Fadl (May 9, 2005)

Any chance to get this for Intense VPP bikes?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> Ok, I see.
> 
> What about 07-09 Reign X, you don't list them at all?


The bottom span is 39.88mm so our NBKRWC40 is a match. The top (rocker) span is 28.45mm. This we don't have covered yet. Our closest would be the 25.4mm kit we have in the works. When it's ready (about three weeks), the ends could be shimmed (1.5mm each side).


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Fadl said:


> Any chance to get this for Intense VPP bikes?


That's a bit too general. Do you have a particular model and year I could check on?


----------



## Fadl (May 9, 2005)

Chris2fur said:


> That's a bit too general. Do you have a particular model and year I could check on?


For sure: Intense SS2 and the Tracer VP. Thanks!
Shock is a CCDB.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Fadl said:


> For sure: Intense SS2 and the Tracer VP. Thanks!
> Shock is a CCDB.


This is important: "Shock is CCDB." Great shock, but eyelet dimensions do not match Fox. The shock eyes are larger when the bearing/bushing (depends on CCDB model--determined by shock stroke, I believe) is removed. We don't have one on hand to see if we can make a mounting shim for it. We've been so busy trying to keep up with demand for all the different shock mounting spans that we have not branched out into different eyelet dimensions yet....


----------



## rsvrjimbo02 (Jul 11, 2008)

Chris,

How about the Tracer VP with the RP23 ? I think the upper mount is 24mm or 24.4 mm. the lower mount is 41mm.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

rsvrjimbo02 said:


> Chris,
> 
> How about the Tracer VP with the RP23 ? I think the upper mount is 24mm or 24.4 mm. the lower mount is 41mm.


We have very little Tracer data. For the 2010 we show Fox reducer numbers 213-54-001-A and 213-26-024-F. Neither of these numbers show up in our listing for some reason. If you can verify the spans, what we have can easily be adapter. For example, a span of 41mm can easily be covered by our NBKRWC40 plus one set of 0.50 shims. The 24mm span could be covered by our NBKRWC22 plus two sets of shims. The needle bearing kits now have links to their respective shims (the shims may be specific to a particular NB kit, so always follow the link from the kit to the shims).


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

*Stainless Shims now Online*

I promised to post up with an announcement when the shim kits were on the website. Follow the "Get Shims for this Kit" link for each respective needle bearing kit. Then, choose the hardware size (6mm or 8mm). They come in sets of 2 and are 0.5mm thick.


----------



## rsvrjimbo02 (Jul 11, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> We have very little Tracer data. For the 2010 we show Fox reducer numbers 213-54-001-A and 213-26-024-F. Neither of these numbers show up in our listing for some reason. If you can verify the spans, what we have can easily be adapter. For example, a span of 41mm can easily be covered by our NBKRWC40 plus one set of 0.50 shims. The 24mm span could be covered by our NBKRWC22 plus two sets of shims. The needle bearing kits now have links to their respective shims (the shims may be specific to a particular NB kit, so always follow the link from the kit to the shims).


I'll break out the digital caliper tonight to confirm. I'm sure of the 41mm lower, just not the upper.


----------



## rsvrjimbo02 (Jul 11, 2008)

With the shock removed from the bike, current reducers in place, I got these measurements;

24.79mm Upper mount
41.30mm Lower mount

That will make it tougher to match up...


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

rsvrjimbo02 said:


> With the shock removed from the bike, current reducers in place, I got these measurements;
> 
> 24.79mm Upper mount
> 41.30mm Lower mount
> ...


Not a problem. The 22mm kit is actually 21.84mm. This makes a difference of 2.95mm. Add three 0.50mm shims to each side and you have a span of 24.84. The 0.05mm will mean nothing in this application so you are good to go.

Two shims plus the 40mm kit will also do fine.


----------



## rsvrjimbo02 (Jul 11, 2008)

Sweet ! Placing the order today...


----------



## mtg7aa (Jul 11, 2008)

So, does anybody in Denver have the install tool yet? I'm not going to press in needle bearings with a socket (I do that with DU bushings, but it's lower risk), and don't really want to buy the tool for one-time use.


----------



## Renegade (May 10, 2004)

Chris, check your e-mail please, concerning whether or not my order shipped, thanks.


----------



## rsvrjimbo02 (Jul 11, 2008)

Got the bearings. Splurged for the tool, and the Enduro bearing press. Great tools ! Install was a dream with these tools. The 6 shims needed to bring the upper mount to 24mm was a bit tricky to fit, but overall no problems. The upper needle bearings were ever so slightly tight on the inner sleeve till I worked the supplied grease into the bearings. Bottom needle bearing and sleeve fit perfectly.

I took it out on a test on a rocky, rooty, 6.5 mile climb followed by the reverse direction which is a fast, rocky, rooty descent. Action of the rear shock is noticeably improved. Tire contact was maintained much better both up and down this trail. I really like the addition. Well worth the investment for the bearings, and ditto for the tools. :thumbsup:


----------



## intosite (Jun 28, 2008)

would like to get a set of bearings, but how do i state my axle size, 6mm and spaces i need?
dont see an option to state on the website...


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

intosite said:


> would like to get a set of bearings, but how do i state my axle size, 6mm and spaces i need?
> dont see an option to state on the website...


The kits are compatible with both and come with a reducer sleeve for 6mm hardware. If you have 8mm hardware you remove the sleeve. Each kit that has shims available has a "GET SHIMS FOR THIS KIT" link next to the Add to Cart button. Maybe your browser is not fully loading up the page...


----------



## intosite (Jun 28, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> The kits are compatible with both and come with a reducer sleeve for 6mm hardware. If you have 8mm hardware you remove the sleeve. Each kit that has shims available has a "GET SHIMS FOR THIS KIT" link next to the Add to Cart button. Maybe your browser is not fully loading up the page...


Ah thanks! i guess i didnt read it properly.
btw, for a 25.4 width, do i get 3 or 4 sets of 2x0.5 shims and how many should i place each side?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

intosite said:


> Ah thanks! i guess i didnt read it properly.
> btw, for a 25.4 width, do i get 3 or 4 sets of 2x0.5 shims and how many should i place each side?


The difference in span is 3.56mm (21.84 actual spec of 22mm kit). That means making up 1.78mm on each side. The shims are 0.50mm thick, so if you use 3 on each side, you will theoretically have .28mm left on each side. Normally this small of a gap will be taken up when you tighten the mounting bolt. The shim kits come in pairs, so you would need to add 3 kits to your order.


----------



## intosite (Jun 28, 2008)

thanks alot! just placed my order.

Cheers!


----------



## Q dog (Dec 31, 2009)

Hi Chris,
I checked out your site to see if there was a kit for the blur 4x but I couldn't find any. The top bush is 22 which i see you have, but the bottom bush is 18mm. Is this to thin for a for a bearing setup or did i just miss it? Will it make much difference running the bearing kit at just one end? BTW its a RP23. Cheers.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Q dog said:


> Hi Chris,
> I checked out your site to see if there was a kit for the blur 4x but I couldn't find any. The top bush is 22 which i see you have, but the bottom bush is 18mm. Is this to thin for a for a bearing setup or did i just miss it? Will it make much difference running the bearing kit at just one end? BTW its a RP23. Cheers.


While Blur 2 and Nomad 2 frames are currently covered, the previous versions pose a couple of challenges. One is the 3/8" hardware and the other is the 18mm span on the Blur you mention. However, both challenges will be met. It's just going to be down the road a little ways.


----------



## sundowner (Mar 13, 2007)

Hey Chris

When are you guys going to have 30mm kit available? I would like to install this on my Titus Motolite and I see you already have the 40mm available, will I need shims for this?

Thanks


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

sundowner said:


> Hey Chris
> 
> When are you guys going to have 30mm kit available? I would like to install this on my Titus Motolite and I see you already have the 40mm available, will I need shims for this?
> 
> Thanks


The 30mm kit is about two weeks out. Everything takes longer than it's supposed to...

You will need no shims for the Motolite, just one 40mm kit and one 30mm kit.


----------



## sundowner (Mar 13, 2007)

Chris2fur said:


> The 30mm kit is about two weeks out. Everything takes longer than it's supposed to...
> 
> You will need no shims for the Motolite, just one 40mm kit and one 30mm kit.


Thanks.:thumbsup:


----------



## evobda2 (Dec 4, 2008)

These kits fine to use on the new Elka Stage-5 shock Chris? Id like to put some on my new Orange 224 build.

Elka have there bushing size as "DU BUSHINGS: 12.7mm (1/2" standard)”...
Im assuming there the same size as fox etc? As they they say the use “standard size mounting hardware”.


----------



## BCBlur (Nov 23, 2004)

evobda2 said:


> These kits fine to use on the new Elka Stage-5 shock Chris? Id like to put some on my new Orange 224 build.
> 
> Elka have there bushing size as "DU BUSHINGS: 12.7mm (1/2" standard)"...
> Im assuming there the same size as fox etc? As they they say the use "standard size mounting hardware".


I did the install on my Elka a few days ago with no problems. The bike is an Intense Slopestyle using the 40mm kit with one set of spacers to get it to 41mm.


----------



## evobda2 (Dec 4, 2008)

BCBlur said:


> I did the install on my Elka a few days ago with no problems. The bike is an Intense Slopestyle using the 40mm kit with one set of spacers to get it to 41mm.


Great! thats what i want to hear.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

BCBlur said:


> I did the install on my Elka a few days ago with no problems. The bike is an Intense Slopestyle using the 40mm kit with one set of spacers to get it to 41mm.


Thanks for answering that for me!


----------



## BCBlur (Nov 23, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> Thanks for answering that for me!


No problem. I contacted you a while back when the first kits became available regarding availability for a Blur 4x, Intense VPX, and Intense Slopestyle. I think the Slopestyle stands to benefit more because of the low leverage ratio, but I'll be ordering a kit for the VPX shortly.

Thanks for getting these things out! Any plans on 3 piece hardware (steel through-shaft with spacers on the ends) vs. the 2 piece spacer setup?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

BCBlur said:


> No problem. I contacted you a while back when the first kits became available regarding availability for a Blur 4x, Intense VPX, and Intense Slopestyle. I think the Slopestyle stands to benefit more because of the low leverage ratio, but I'll be ordering a kit for the VPX shortly.
> 
> Thanks for getting these things out! Any plans on 3 piece hardware (steel through-shaft with spacers on the ends) vs. the 2 piece spacer setup?


Well, the kits do have a steel through shaft. That's what the "inner ring" or axle of the needle bearing is. It's basically a 3-piece system that replaces the DU with a needle bearing.


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

Chris2fur said:


> Well, the kits do have a steel through shaft. That's what the "inner ring" or axle of the needle bearing is. It's basically a 3-piece system that replaces the DU with a needle bearing.


 I think what BCBLUR means is the Blur uses a 3/8" threaded shaft that goes thru the Fox Hat style reducers on the rocker end of the shock pivot. For your system to work Blur owners would have to purchase new fasteners to bolt thru the reducer.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mtnbiker4life said:


> I think what BCBLUR means is the Blur uses a 3/8" threaded shaft that goes thru the Fox Hat style reducers on the rocker end of the shock pivot. For your system to work Blur owners would have to purchase new fasteners to bolt thru the reducer.


If we are talking about the earlier Blur and Nomad frames with the 3/8" hardware, then we are dealing with a hardware compatibility issue rather than the number of pieces that make up the kit. A 3/8" bolt is simply too big to pass through the inner ring of the needle bearing. We will deal with this down the road when we get to it. It will not be a big deal. We are finishing up an Iron Horse kit that will replace the 10mm hardware with our own hardware and adapters. I'm sure we can do something similar for the SC frames that use the 3/8" hardware.


----------



## BCBlur (Nov 23, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> Well, the kits do have a steel through shaft. That's what the "inner ring" or axle of the needle bearing is. It's basically a 3-piece system that replaces the DU with a needle bearing.


You're right. I don't know what I was thinking.


----------



## GUmtber (Aug 29, 2009)

Has anyone tried to fit them to an Intense 951? Fox DHX RC4 shock measuring 33.6 up top and 41.5 at the bottom.


----------



## rsvrjimbo02 (Jul 11, 2008)

Chris2fur,
I seem to have devleoped a slight amount of play in my lower bearing. it is the 40mm kit with two spacers for a 41mm fit on a Tracer VP. The play feels like it is between the 6mm adapter sleeve and the bolt, or the 6mm sleeve and the 8mm steel bearing sleeve. If i lift the tire off the gournd, then lower it back, I can feel a very slight amount of play vertically but none laterally. I've checked torque values on all the suspension bolts, and also the bearing play on the VPP suspension links and they are all fine.

I did not have this play till after a few rides on the new needle bearings. Any ideas?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

rsvrjimbo02 said:


> Chris2fur,
> I seem to have devleoped a slight amount of play in my lower bearing. it is the 40mm kit with two spacers for a 41mm fit on a Tracer VP. The play feels like it is between the 6mm adapter sleeve and the bolt, or the 6mm sleeve and the 8mm steel bearing sleeve. If i lift the tire off the gournd, then lower it back, I can feel a very slight amount of play vertically but none laterally. I've checked torque values on all the suspension bolts, and also the bearing play on the VPP suspension links and they are all fine.
> 
> I did not have this play till after a few rides on the new needle bearings. Any ideas?


Based on your thorough explanation, everything is fine. Yes, I know it doesn't seem fine, but it is. Here's why: You've already determined there is no lateral play and everything is torqued to spec. Therefore, the outer spacers are "captured" between the mounts, putting pressure on the steel inner ring (needle bearing axle). In addition to "pinching" the inner ring, the spacers also surround it for several millimeters on each side. The inner ring can not move vertically on the bolt when captured this way. Before tightening everything down, yes, you could have vertical play between the bolt/spacer/inner ring, but not after proper torqueing. Therefore, the play you are feeling is the designed clearance between the needle bearing rollers and the inner ring. Unlike a DU bushing, the needle bearing rollers need room to roll. Otherwise, the hardened rollers and inner ring would damage each other. Under riding condtions, this minute amount of play will never be felt. However, when isolating the initial movement, as you describe, it can sometimes be felt. This is just part of the system.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rsvrjimbo02 said:


> Chris2fur,
> I seem to have devleoped a slight amount of play in my lower bearing. it is the 40mm kit with two spacers for a 41mm fit on a Tracer VP. The play feels like it is between the 6mm adapter sleeve and the bolt, or the 6mm sleeve and the 8mm steel bearing sleeve. If i lift the tire off the gournd, then lower it back, I can feel a very slight amount of play vertically but none laterally. I've checked torque values on all the suspension bolts, and also the bearing play on the VPP suspension links and they are all fine.
> 
> I did not have this play till after a few rides on the new needle bearings. Any ideas?


Sounds like your bolt isn't tight enough.


----------



## rsvrjimbo02 (Jul 11, 2008)

Cool. Thanks for the explanation. Good to know it is not an issue as I would hate to give up these bearings. Thanks.


----------



## andymart (Oct 19, 2008)

Just installed a 22mm kit on my pitch pro feels better already will post an after ride report tommorrow installed it with a combination of crank extracter, sockets and g clamp took 10 minutes.


----------



## LonesomeCowboyBert (Apr 11, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like your bolt isn't tight enough.


Tightening a bolt in the axial plane cant remove radial play
bogus information


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LonesomeCowboyBert said:


> Tightening a bolt in the axial plane cant remove radial play
> bogus information


Every bolt hole has radial play, the purpose of the bolt is to provide enough clamping force that the friction between each face is greater than the shear force placed on the joint.

If you don't believe me, then slacken off any bolts you like and see how much things shift around due to bolt hole clearance. Start with your disc rotors.:thumbsup:


----------



## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Any time frame on the Iron Horse 10-mil stuff? I'd be willing to be a guinea pig and pay for the stuff. I got a 6point dying for some needle bearing action.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

92SE-R said:


> Any time frame on the Iron Horse 10-mil stuff? I'd be willing to be a guinea pig and pay for the stuff. I got a 6point dying for some needle bearing action.


We are very close! Should be up on the site next week. I will post up when they are ready.


----------



## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Every bolt hole has radial play, the purpose of the bolt is to provide enough clamping force that the friction between each face is greater than the shear force placed on the joint.
> 
> If you don't believe me, then slacken off any bolts you like and see how much things shift around due to bolt hole clearance. Start with your disc rotors.:thumbsup:


I don't know if I buy this. 
Replace the word bolt with axle. Many times, a bolt just functions as an axle. If that axle is turning on bushings (journal bearings) there should be no play between the axle and bushing, even without axial compression. 
I would say the same is true for cartridge bearings. 
For cone and cone ball bearings, axial compression force holds the bearings in the part of the bearing cone where the fit is snug, so loosening the bolt would cause play.

Am I not seeing this correctly? If it was friction caused by shear to prevent play, you wouldn't have a smooth running bearing, and in fact, you would defeat the purpose of having bearings. 
I don't see the analogy you are trying to make with disc rotors?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

smilinsteve said:


> I don't know if I buy this.
> Replace the word bolt with axle. Many times, a bolt just functions as an axle. If that axle is turning on bushings (journal bearings) there should be no play between the axle and bushing, even without axial compression.
> I would say the same is true for cartridge bearings.
> For cone and cone ball bearings, axial compression force holds the bearings in the part of the bearing cone where the fit is snug, so loosening the bolt would cause play.
> ...


You are thinking of the hardware bolts on suspension pivots as being axles and that is the whole problem. Axles, pins, etc. machined to interface with bearings have very close tolerances. The bolts and bolt holes to mount these axles and pins to not have such close tolerances. Therefore, if they are loose, small movements will occur. Properly torqueing the bolts "locks" the axles/pins against the mounting flanges/rocker arms. The point he is making with rotors just illustrates the fact that mounting hardware does not usually have tight tolerances. If you don't fully torque the mounting bolts on a rotor, it moves around quite a bit on the bolt shafts.

To clarify: Play between bearing and axle/pin is a separate issue from play caused by loose mounting hardware. As far as your referrence to "cones" as far as suspension bearings go, most suspension bearings are not "adjustable" for internal play. Some of the newer bearings used in Santa Cruz and Intense VPP linkages are angular contact and can be adjusted. The vast majority are radial ball bearings where the balls ride in the center of a deep groove and are not axially adjusted. Same with journal bearings. They ususally have bushings or thrust washers to handle radial loads. The needle bearings are the same. There is no way to adjust out play between the needle rollers and the inner ring (axle).


----------



## mtboz (Feb 10, 2010)

Needle bearing kit installed great in trance x3. My bushing was in fair condition but I still noticed a change.


----------



## thorir (Mar 23, 2004)

Currently out of stock on the 22mm kits?

Any idea when you'll have more?

-Jon


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

thorir said:


> Currently out of stock on the 22mm kits?
> 
> Any idea when you'll have more?
> 
> -Jon


Actually just boxed up the next shipment for the warehouse. Should be there by Wed. and ready to ship on Thursday (May 27th). For anyone waiting, the 35mm kits will arrive on the same day. Thanks for your patience!


----------



## thorir (Mar 23, 2004)

Fantastic. I'm looking forward to giving them a try.


----------



## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

Chris2fur said:


> Actually just boxed up the next shipment for the warehouse. Should be there by Wed. and ready to ship on Thursday (May 27th). For anyone waiting, the 35mm kits will arrive on the same day. Thanks for your patience!


Waiting for the 25mm kits


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Cable0guy said:


> Waiting for the 25mm kits


Should be the following week, along with the 30mm.


----------



## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

The shock chart of the website doesn't show a kit for the old style (pre-2007) Santa Cruz Superlights. Is that an oversight, or is there no kit available?

Also, does anyone know of a shop in the Denver area that does the install?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

smilinsteve said:


> The shock chart of the website doesn't show a kit for the old style (pre-2007) Santa Cruz Superlights. Is that an oversight, or is there no kit available?
> 
> Also, does anyone know of a shop in the Denver area that does the install?


One end of the 06 SL takes the 22mm kit. The reducer kit number at the other end is listed as "213-54-001-A" but we don't have this in our our "key." If you know the reducer face to reducer face span and bolt size, we may have something that will work.


----------



## Agate (May 25, 2010)

Will I need any shims to do my '07 BMC Superstroke 01? I don't have calipers to measure the actual width. I know that I need the 22mm kit for each end.

Also, are you guys going to do a suspension bearing kit for that frame, or do I just have to buy them separately?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Agate said:


> Will I need any shims to do my '07 BMC Superstroke 01? I don't have calipers to measure the actual width. I know that I need the 22mm kit for each end.
> 
> Also, are you guys going to do a suspension bearing kit for that frame, or do I just have to buy them separately?


No shims needed for the Superstroke. As for the bearing kit for the pivots, if you go back to this page: http://enduroforkseals.com/id269.html and refresh it, you should find the Superstroke Kit. Give it a few minutes and try again if it doesn't show up (just updated the page).


----------



## Agate (May 25, 2010)

Chris2fur said:


> No shims needed for the Superstroke. As for the bearing kit for the pivots, if you go back to this page: http://enduroforkseals.com/id269.html and refresh it, you should find the Superstroke Kit. Give it a few minutes and try again if it doesn't show up (just updated the page).


Awesome, thanks. And you said that the 22mm kits are going to be back in stock tomorrow, right?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Agate said:


> Awesome, thanks. And you said that the 22mm kits are going to be back in stock tomorrow, right?


Thursday is a safer bet....


----------



## Agate (May 25, 2010)

Chris2fur said:


> Thursday is a safer bet....


Okay, I'll just watch the site. Not in a huge hurry, just excited. 

Thanks again for the help.


----------



## TORO1968 (Oct 9, 2005)

How long for the Kona Dawg kits? Thanks!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

TORO1968 said:


> How long for the Kona Dawg kits? Thanks!


Should around the end of July.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

*Kits Up On Site*

The 22mm Kits are back in stock and ready to ship. The new 35mm kits are also in stock and on the site.


----------



## Agate (May 25, 2010)

Chris2fur said:


> No shims needed for the Superstroke. As for the bearing kit for the pivots, if you go back to this page: http://enduroforkseals.com/id269.html and refresh it, you should find the Superstroke Kit. Give it a few minutes and try again if it doesn't show up (just updated the page).


So, having looked at my bike last night, I noticed that the suspension bearings are already made by you guys (or at least, they say Enduro on the seals). Is there a difference between those bearings and the ones in the suspension kit that you put up on the site?


----------



## FlippinSweet (Jul 24, 2006)

Question for Chris2fur:
will this needle bearing kit work on a Transition Bottlerocket with a Marzocchi Roco TST-R?

The chart online spec's all Transitions with Fox shocks.


----------



## croute (Dec 8, 2004)

hello do you have a solution for iron horse which are 30X10mm
thanks


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

croute said:


> hello do you have a solution for iron horse which are 30X10mm
> thanks


Yes, we are in the process of assembling those kits right now. Should be up on the site by the end of next week.


----------



## mtboz (Feb 10, 2010)

Chris I have a giant trance x question. The bolt that secures the shock to the linkage, is it load bearing? I think that the bolt is pinching the needle bearing shaft to the linkage. Could a ti bolt replace the stock bolt?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mtboz said:


> Chris I have a giant trance x question. The bolt that secures the shock to the linkage, is it load bearing? I think that the bolt is pinching the needle bearing shaft to the linkage. Could a ti bolt replace the stock bolt?


Definitely the linkage tightly clamps the inner ring of the needle bearing when properly torqued. However, I don't think that removes all shear force from the bolt. It's a pretty high-stress area so I would be nervous to recommend Ti hardware. I freely admit I'm not an expert on Ti bolts v. steel, and that's my main reason for not recommending it. Perhaps someone with more expertise would be comfortable making that recommendation.


----------



## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

what bike is that?



tacubaya said:


> Hey Chris, here is a photo for your website if you want to use it... 1.2 mm washers on both sides


----------



## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

I just ordered a set for my Firebird and the Mach 5. I can't wait to see how the Firebird goes with the bearing kit an the CCDB!


----------



## assaf_angel (Mar 4, 2008)

*i took a 22 mm kit and make it fit a blur lt (the old version)*



Chris2fur said:


> If we are talking about the earlier Blur and Nomad frames with the 3/8" hardware, then we are dealing with a hardware compatibility issue rather than the number of pieces that make up the kit. A 3/8" bolt is simply too big to pass through the inner ring of the needle bearing. We will deal with this down the road when we get to it. It will not be a big deal. We are finishing up an Iron Horse kit that will replace the 10mm hardware with our own hardware and adapters. I'm sure we can do something similar for the SC frames that use the 3/8" hardware.


cut the inner sleeve to 17.92 then i drill it to 3/8 hole and file the 2 spacers from one side of each one by 1/3 so i still have one seal but now it adapted to 17.92 mm total width.
my clyent ride with it for more than a month and its fine

assaf

www.sheeep.co.il


----------



## Fat29Tire (Jan 15, 2004)

minimusprime said:


> I put one of these kits in the top rocker arm position of my spesh pitch pro. I haven't had much of a chance to ride it yet because of injury. It was extremly tough to push the bearing into the eyelet and the movement wasn't as smooth as I was expecting. it seems to be smoother on certain positions than others.
> 
> Also the shaft that goes through the needle bearing seems to be a very tight fit post bearing install to the eyelet. Like I have to press really hard to move it laterally through the needle bearing. Is this normal?


I just had the same experience on a brand new RS Monarch 4.2
Bearing pushed in firmly but now the center shaft rotates stiffly compared to the uninstalled one. I pressed the stiff bearing out and it still isn't free. I guess next I'll do some measuring with the caliper and possibly machining with a dremel? And the $25 bearing I just ruined, what about it?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Agate said:


> So, having looked at my bike last night, I noticed that the suspension bearings are already made by you guys (or at least, they say Enduro on the seals). Is there a difference between those bearings and the ones in the suspension kit that you put up on the site?


Regarding your question about suspension pivot bearings (changing topic from needle bearing kits), bike manufacturers may specify whatever bearings they want. Enduro/ABI directly sells the OE bearings and I can't say for sure if the spec is the same. We recommend MAX or full-complement bearings for suspension pivots and that's what our online kits contain (unless a particular size bearing is not manufactured in the MAX configuration (no "cage" or "retainer" allowing more balls between the races for greater strength). If the bearings in your frame are already MAX bearings, it will say so on the seals.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

FlippinSweet said:


> Question for Chris2fur:
> will this needle bearing kit work on a Transition Bottlerocket with a Marzocchi Roco TST-R?
> 
> The chart online spec's all Transitions with Fox shocks.


The Roco shocks use the same eyelet standard as Fox so it should be good.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Fat29Tire said:


> I just had the same experience on a brand new RS Monarch 4.2
> Bearing pushed in firmly but now the center shaft rotates stiffly compared to the uninstalled one. I pressed the stiff bearing out and it still isn't free. I guess next I'll do some measuring with the caliper and possibly machining with a dremel? And the $25 bearing I just ruined, what about it?


I would not bother with calipers. Measuring the inside diamter of the bore will be hard to do accurately. Rather use the bearing that has been compessed as a "gauge" and polish out the eyelet for a better fit. The kit is $25.00 but that is for the spacers, seals, bolt shim, etc.. The only replacement part you will need is the needle bearing itself, which we will help you out with. ([email protected])


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

dwyooaj said:


> what bike is that?


Duncon Tosa Inu.


----------



## Fat29Tire (Jan 15, 2004)

*Thanks Enduro!*

Thanks Chris for the great support from Enduro.
Anyone got recommendations on the best way to hone out the shock-eye?
Read about dremel sanding drum which I have, or would a dremel polishing stone cylinder be gentler I wonder?
Thanks
Steve


Chris2fur said:


> I would not bother with calipers. Measuring the inside diamter of the bore will be hard to do accurately. Rather use the bearing that has been compessed as a "gauge" and polish out the eyelet for a better fit. The kit is $25.00 but that is for the spacers, seals, bolt shim, etc.. The only replacement part you will need is the needle bearing itself, which we will help you out with. ([email protected])


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Fat29Tire said:


> Thanks Chris for the great support from Enduro.
> Anyone got recommendations on the best way to hone out the shock-eye?
> Read about dremel sanding drum which I have, or would a dremel polishing stone cylinder be gentler I wonder?
> Thanks
> Steve


Find a machine shop with either the correct reamer or an adjustable one. It's going to be very difficult to do by hand and keep it round.


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

Dougal said:


> Find a machine shop with either the correct reamer or an adjustable one. It's going to be very difficult to do by hand and keep it round.


 +1 any other method might as well plan to buy a new shock when you screw it up.

Fat29Tire - How do you know the eyelet is out of spec? It might be the bearing that's not to the correct size. Before you start increasing the size of the eyelet bore I would have both parts measured by someone that has the tools to measure to the tenths .0000 of an inch.


----------



## Fat29Tire (Jan 15, 2004)

mtnbiker4life said:


> +1 any other method might as well plan to buy a new shock when you screw it up.
> 
> Fat29Tire - How do you know the eyelet is out of spec? It might be the bearing that's not to the correct size. Before you start increasing the size of the eyelet bore I would have both parts measured by someone that has the tools to measure to the tenths .0000 of an inch.


I'm relying on Real World's chris2fur's experience and advice received offline based on careful measurements I've made. Here's my exchange with chris2fur discussing the dimensions for the benefit of others who may be in my situation:
(The "compressed" bearing referred to below was distorted from forcing it into too small an eyelet)

Hi Chris,
I have a descent digital vernier caliper which has OD jaws and ID jaws.

The uncompressed needle bearing OD measures pretty consistently at 0.5935 - 0.5940"
The compressed needle bearing OD measures inconsistently between 0.5935 - 0.5950" depending on rotation in the jaws indicating the deformity from pressing into to tight an eye

The RS Monarch 4.2's eyelets measure (both) between 0.5900 - 0.5910

My question is how do I gauge sanding and polishing the right amount?
How tight should the fit be?

Hi, Steve:
The normal Fox dimension is .5930 inches (15.06mm) at room temperature should be the ideal dimension for the shock eyes. 
We've had customers who've said they "polished them out with a Dremel," but I'm not sure which attachment they used. We're talking about a small amount of material here, so I think it's going to be more like sanding than cutting. Something along the lines of a miniature abrasive brush/hone might be a good idea. 
Chris

My plan now is to lightly polish and re-measure and continue until I get close to .5930
Yeah I know butchering the shock-eye is a risk but it sounds like others have been successful so I'm willing to try.

The other issue this raises is how out of tolerance shock eye's cause the DU bushing sleeves to be too tight on the insert and not allow the required free-play there-by forcing bushing rotation on the shock bolt itself causing premature and frequent bolt failure. I'm pretty sure I had that going on with one of my Fox Rp23 shocks.

I'll post a follow up and do appreciate everyones opinions, experience, observations, etc.

Ride On
Steve


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

Fat29Tire said:


> I'm relying on Real World's chris2fur's experience and advice received offline based on careful measurements I've made. Here's my exchange with chris2fur discussing the dimensions for the benefit of others who may be in my situation:
> (The "compressed" bearing referred to below was distorted from forcing it into too small an eyelet)
> 
> Hi Chris,
> ...


Shock eyelet size variation is the one thing the Needle Bearing set up can not overcome whereas the DU Bushing can. Keep us updated :thumbsup:


----------



## skidad (May 23, 2005)

No Cannondales listed in the chart.

I have a 2008 Prophet with an RP23 shock. Is a kit available for this?


Thanks


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The nominal size is 15.08mm. A light press-fit in metric is 0.01-0.03mm undersize, which is where 15.06mm comes in.


----------



## arne_and (Dec 5, 2006)

I see in the RWC table that the NBKRWC22 bearings will fit the RFX '08. Is it required to have one or two shim kits in addition, or do the bearings fit without shims?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

arne_and said:


> I see in the RWC table that the NBKRWC22 bearings will fit the RFX '08. Is it required to have one or two shim kits in addition, or do the bearings fit without shims?


In the chart, when a specific size of kit is listed, no shims are required. When shims are required, the chart will lists a measurement of the mounting span and the bolt size.


----------



## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

Got them for both of my bikes, and worked pretty well. Saw noticeable improvement with small bump compliance like others. The only issue was that Intense SS had a gap differential of 0.8mm, but no issues so far after tightening the bolt. Highly recommended upgrade!


----------



## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Hello Chris, 

Wondering if you have a solution for the Knolly Endorphin top shock mount as yet? I believe the mounting hardware is 44mm wide there. I see there's a 40mm kit on your site, do you have 8mm ID, 2mm thick shims available? - seems like that would fit.


----------



## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

^ Just use 40mm kit plus 4 sets of shims.


----------



## GUmtber (Aug 29, 2009)

I have an Intense 951 frame with a Fox RC4 rear shock and the bushing diameters are 33.6mm approx. for the top and 41.5mm approx. for the bottom. What do you reccommend?
Thanks


----------



## qkenuf4u (Jan 24, 2009)

so are you going to make a kit for MANITOU SHOCKS on SPEC FSR PRO frames ? i can get you measurements if need be.. i know in my case it would more than likely be a bearing, sleeve, and 2 shims top and bottom....
thanks
lance


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

qkenuf4u said:


> so are you going to make a kit for MANITOU SHOCKS on SPEC FSR PRO frames ? i can get you measurements if need be.. i know in my case it would more than likely be a bearing, sleeve, and 2 shims top and bottom....
> thanks
> lance


I can fill that gap. Sent off a set of roller bearing sets for a 12mm rockshox the other day, manitou eyelets are the same.


----------



## qkenuf4u (Jan 24, 2009)

Dougal said:


> I can fill that gap. Sent off a set of roller bearing sets for a 12mm rockshox the other day, manitou eyelets are the same.


excellent.. how much and where do i send the money ??  
thanks
lance


----------



## jason6142004 (Mar 1, 2009)

hi, is there a kit for the 2010 morewood shova?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

qkenuf4u said:


> excellent.. how much and where do i send the money ??
> thanks
> lance


PM sent.


----------



## amish_matt (Aug 18, 2006)

Any word on a kit for the early model SC Blur/Nomad with 3/8" hardware?


----------



## in the trees (Mar 24, 2005)

22.2mm frame specs (Transition frames) require just the use of the 22mm kit (no shims), correct? Thx!


----------



## YnotGorilla (Mar 22, 2008)

*Manitou needla bearings*



qkenuf4u said:


> so are you going to make a kit for MANITOU SHOCKS on SPEC FSR PRO frames ? i can get you measurements if need be.. i know in my case it would more than likely be a bearing, sleeve, and 2 shims top and bottom....
> thanks
> lance


Manitou eyelets are 14mm diameter without the copper bush (12mm with) and will fit a standard HK 1015 (10 mm x 14 mm x 15 mm) needle roller bearing or HK 1014-2RS (10 mm x 14 mm x 14 mm), but you might have a hard time sourcing a 10mm to 6 or 8mm steel reducer shim in the width of your frame gap. For frames with 10mm hardware you are ready to go. These have ~4.5kN dyanmic load rating.
If you get hold of a reducer shim you will need to seal off the needle roller with O-rings and stack with 10mm shims on both sides to support it sideways.

Why Enduro cannot produce reducer kits for manitou when they have all the machinery available and there is a market is a rightful question, maybe they don`t like the guys at manitou? Who knows...


----------



## qkenuf4u (Jan 24, 2009)

YnotGorilla said:


> Manitou eyelets are 14mm diameter without the copper bush (12mm with) and will fit a standard HK 1015 (10 mm x 14 mm x 15 mm) needle roller bearing or HK 1014-2RS (10 mm x 14 mm x 14 mm), but you might have a hard time sourcing a 10mm to 6 or 8mm steel reducer shim in the width of your frame gap. For frames with 10mm hardware you are ready to go. These have ~4.5kN dyanmic load rating.
> If you get hold of a reducer shim you will need to seal off the needle roller with O-rings and stack with 10mm shims on both sides to support it sideways.
> 
> Why Enduro cannot produce reducer kits for manitou when they have all the machinery available and there is a market is a rightful question, maybe they don`t like the guys at manitou? Who knows...


EXACTLY THE INFO I NEEDED !!! before sending out 75$ for a kit i found ...... :thumbsup:


----------



## YnotGorilla (Mar 22, 2008)

qkenuf4u said:


> EXACTLY THE INFO I NEEDED !!! before sending out 75$ for a kit i found ...... :thumbsup:


Well, industry-ware/hardware suppliers tend to run quite expensive for small quantities of parts if they don`t stock them :madman: , so 75$ for top + bottom kit is actually not too bad if it includes both needle bearing, reducers, spacers, and O-rings.


----------



## vikingboy (Nov 5, 2008)

+1 for ccdb bushings


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

YnotGorilla said:


> Manitou eyelets are 14mm diameter without the copper bush (12mm with) and will fit a standard HK 1015 (10 mm x 14 mm x 15 mm) needle roller bearing or HK 1014-2RS (10 mm x 14 mm x 14 mm), but you might have a hard time sourcing a 10mm to 6 or 8mm steel reducer shim in the width of your frame gap. For frames with 10mm hardware you are ready to go. These have ~4.5kN dyanmic load rating.
> If you get hold of a reducer shim you will need to seal off the needle roller with O-rings and stack with 10mm shims on both sides to support it sideways.
> 
> Why Enduro cannot produce reducer kits for manitou when they have all the machinery available and there is a market is a rightful question, maybe they don`t like the guys at manitou? Who knows...


Because of the smaller internal diameter the manitou/RS 12mm bearing kits I make up are limited in the choice of hardware, for example an 8mm bolt hole through a 10mm shaft causes a few problems. I have several tricks and options to get around this but it depends on the frame spacing as to which approach is best.

Basically they're all custom made, the modular approach RWC have with the fox sized kits doesn't work as well with the smaller axle and the amount of customisation needed for each frame makes it a difficult product to handle in big numbers.


----------



## qkenuf4u (Jan 24, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Because of the smaller internal diameter the manitou/RS 12mm bearing kits I make up are limited in the choice of hardware, for example an 8mm bolt hole through a 10mm shaft causes a few problems. I have several tricks and options to get around this but it depends on the frame spacing as to which approach is best.
> 
> Basically they're all custom made, the modular approach RWC have with the fox sized kits doesn't work as well with the smaller axle and the amount of customisation needed for each frame makes it a difficult product to handle in big numbers.


send me your paypal addy brother... we talked via email the other night but never got a paypal addy to get my kit for my EVOLVER.... 
and i got an idea i want to bounce off ya about the 8mm setup since im not really thriled about going to a 6mm bolt .... ill send ya pics of my idea... :thumbsup:


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

qkenuf4u said:


> send me your paypal addy brother... we talked via email the other night but never got a paypal addy to get my kit for my EVOLVER....
> and i got an idea i want to bounce off ya about the 8mm setup since im not really thriled about going to a 6mm bolt .... ill send ya pics of my idea... :thumbsup:


Sent you another email.
Probably best we leave this thread for Chris and his kits now. Feel free to start a new one.


----------



## Dan_UK (Apr 14, 2009)

Hi Guys.

Just purchased a Rock Shox Vivid 5.1 and would like to know if these roller bearings fit them?

Thanks

Dan.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dan_UK said:


> Hi Guys.
> 
> Just purchased a Rock Shox Vivid 5.1 and would like to know if these roller bearings fit them?
> 
> ...


Does it take 1/2" or 12mm reducers?


----------



## Dan_UK (Apr 14, 2009)

The inside diameter of the DU bushes on the shock is 1/2"


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dan_UK said:


> The inside diameter of the DU bushes on the shock is 1/2"


Chris's kits will work fine then.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Dan_UK said:


> Hi Guys.
> 
> Just purchased a Rock Shox Vivid 5.1 and would like to know if these roller bearings fit them?
> 
> ...


Dougal got your particular question answered, but just for clarity, there are two RockShox rear shock series that are compatible with our needle bearing kits (in other words have the same shock eye diameter as Fox):

1) Vivid series
2) Monarch series


----------



## Dan_UK (Apr 14, 2009)

Thanks for the reply guys, much appreciated.

Chris, what is the postage to the UK?

Dan.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Dan_UK said:


> Thanks for the reply guys, much appreciated.
> 
> Chris, what is the postage to the UK?
> 
> Dan.


Dan, depending on the speed and tracking opitons it varies from about 10.00 USD to around 40.00 USD. You can add items to the cart and calculate shipping without completing a purchase if you want exact shipping quotes.


----------



## captain spaulding (May 7, 2006)

Any plans for a 8x19mm kit? My buddy has mongooses, and they both use 8x19mm mounts.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

captain spaulding said:


> Any plans for a 8x19mm kit? My buddy has mongooses, and they both use 8x19mm mounts.


Yes, in the works but no ETA.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Chris2fur-
Is a shock needle kit available for a 2010 Nomad Carbon with an RP23? The website only lists an RC4.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

spec306 said:


> Chris2fur-
> Is a shock needle kit available for a 2010 Nomad Carbon with an RP23? The website only lists an RC4.


Yes, as long as it is another Fox shock it will be the same.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Thanks Chris...... Do you think the Nomad with the RP23 sees much benefit? Looks like the shock doesn't move that much. If yes, should I do the top, bottom, or both?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

spec306 said:


> Thanks Chris...... Do you think the Nomad with the RP23 sees much benefit? Looks like the shock doesn't move that much. If yes, should I do the top, bottom, or both?


It's more a function of rotation than how much the shock appears to be moving. At the frame mount (front) there is obviously little rotation. However, at the rear swing link, it is possible for the shock body itself to move little, while significant rotation takes place inside the shock eye. You should be able to observe this by letting air out of the shock and manually cycling the rear suspension while focusing on what's happening right at the shock eye.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Gotcha......looks like I'll do the bottom of the shock. I'll be sending it in to PUSH soon so this will be a perfect time. Do you think I should do the top as well?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

spec306 said:


> Gotcha......looks like I'll do the bottom of the shock. I'll be sending it in to PUSH soon so this will be a perfect time. Do you think I should do the top as well?


There's really not a reason to as no performance gain will be realized. The poor pivot qualities of shock reducers and DU bushings are not a problem where the shock end has no real rotation taking place within the shock eye.


----------



## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Warp said:


> Fox, Marzocchi, Romic, 5th Element Coils, Avalanche and I guess the RS Vivid have 1/2" eyelets and can use the Enduro kit.
> 
> Some RS earlier models (10mm?), Manitous (12mm), 5th Air (3/8" spherical bearings), Cane Creek and DT Swiss use different hardware.


Great... just bought a Manitou Evolver Intrinsic ISX-6 and a Cane Creek Double Barrel off an Intense Employee, and want to test both of them out on my Niner WFO. To the Factory, I thought the 6mm hole and 22mm length were all standard in the shock industry, I guess the eyelets are another can of worms.


----------



## mtbmoto (Oct 17, 2010)

I cant believe how well the " NBKRWC22 " Kit and tools that I got from Real World Cycling Worked on my bike. My original lower shock bushing would wear out after a few days of riding at Whistler. Now I can go all season and not have any problems. But the biggest difference is how much better the rear suspension works now. I am very very happy with the conversion. Thanks you guys you really helped make this season a success.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RandyBoy said:


> Great... just bought a Manitou Evolver Intrinsic ISX-6 and a Cane Creek Double Barrel off an Intense Employee, and want to test both of them out on my Niner WFO. To the Factory, I thought the 6mm hole and 22mm length were all standard in the shock industry, I guess the eyelets are another can of worms.


Your manitou has metric eyelets which the RWC kits won't fit unfortunately.


----------



## mtbmoto (Oct 17, 2010)

After installing the kit in to the lower mount on my rc4.I was most impressed by how much better the bike came off the face of the jumps. It really made the bike come alive.


----------



## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

How much longer the Enduro needle bearings may last compared to the DU bushings? The bushing on my Trance X is getting worn after just a year of usage and a noticeable play has developed, so soon I'll need to get either a new DU bushing (and probably a set of reducers as well) or the RWC kit. I don't really expect any improvement in the ride quality (the bike as it is has always been buttery smooth), but if the needle bearing is going to last noticeably longer, then I think it may be worth the price for me.
Any thoughts?


----------



## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

They last a lot longer. I was going through DU Bushings every few weeks on the bottom eyelet of my shock which rotates a lot (Diamondback Mission Knucklebox). I switched to the needle bearing kit about 6 months ago, and it's been holding up great. I've repacked it a new times just to check inside for unusual wear patterns, and it's looked as good as new each time. The shock feels a bit more plush also.

As has already been said, needle bearings are only needed for eyelets that have a lot of rotation. I still have a bushing in my shock's upper eyelet. It's the same one I've had in there since I got the shock a year ago.


----------



## in the trees (Mar 24, 2005)

22.2mm - Any options that would work?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

in the trees said:


> 22.2mm - Any options that would work?


Coming very soon. 2-3 weeks.


----------



## dreednya (Mar 9, 2004)

> They last a lot longer.


I may have play in mine after about 6 months on an Ibis Mojo. LBS are having a look at it as they have just replaced all the linkage bearings (14 months old) and there is still a little bit of play that they think can only come from the shock bushings. Waiting for judgement until tomorrow when they put it all back together and see what happens then.


----------



## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Very much interested in an 12mm needle bearing kit with 6 x 22mm hardware for a Manitou Evolver ISX6 shock.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

dreednya said:


> I may have play in mine after about 6 months on an Ibis Mojo. LBS are having a look at it as they have just replaced all the linkage bearings (14 months old) and there is still a little bit of play that they think can only come from the shock bushings. Waiting for judgement until tomorrow when they put it all back together and see what happens then.


May not be a wear issue. When the shock is unloaded, clearance between the inner ring and the rollers can often be felt when lifting up on the seat. What the shop is feeling may have been there all along. It's not something you would feel when riding.


----------



## Brother Lu (Jan 26, 2009)

I,m also interested in 8x22 for my evolver on my nomad,but i don't see manitou listed.


----------



## mtg7aa (Jul 11, 2008)

There should not be any noticeable slop, riding or not. The fact that Chris2fur is trying to justify slop being present makes me reconsider the idea of replacing my DU bushings with these.

Slop significantly increases the loads seen in the bearing (and in connecting structures), and makes the lag between compression and rebound worse.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Brother Lu said:


> I,m also interested in 8x22 for my evolver on my nomad,but i don't see manitou listed.


The Manitou shocks have a considerably smaller shock eye bore. It would require a new size of needle bearing. This is something we will eventually make available.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mtg7aa said:


> There should not be any noticeable slop, riding or not. The fact that Chris2fur is trying to justify slop being present makes me reconsider the idea of replacing my DU bushings with these.
> 
> Slop significantly increases the loads seen in the bearing (and in connecting structures), and makes the lag between compression and rebound worse.


"Slop" and designed clearances are not the same. Minimum clearances are required for several reasons, not the least of which is to prevent binding between the rollers and inner ring. It takes a certain amount of clearance to allow the rolling to take place.

As for a lag between compression and rebound, I'm not sure you have really thought this through. When a shock is into any part of it's travel beyond full extension, whether it is being compressed or is rebounding, it is still exerting outward pressure on the needle bearing. Your statement would indicate that the point of pressure on the bearing transitions when the shock begins to extend after being compressed. This is not the case. The only time a transition of in the point of pressure would take place is when the shock is fully extended and pressure exerted beyond that point (as in lifting up on the seat when off of the bike).


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

dreednya said:


> I may have play in mine after about 6 months on an Ibis Mojo. LBS are having a look at it as they have just replaced all the linkage bearings (14 months old) and there is still a little bit of play that they think can only come from the shock bushings. Waiting for judgement until tomorrow when they put it all back together and see what happens then.


One other thing could be going on. When you migrated to the RWC Needle Bearing system did you ride the bike for a prolonged period of time with play in the DU Bushings. Because I found that riding with slop in the bushings can lead to an elongation of the shock eyelet bore. I'm not saying this is the case but it could be a possibility.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> "Slop" and designed clearances are not the same. Minimum clearances are required for several reasons, not the least of which is to prevent binding between the rollers and inner ring. It takes a certain amount of clearance to allow the rolling to take place.
> 
> As for a lag between compression and rebound, I'm not sure you have really thought this through. When a shock is into any part of it's travel beyond full extension, whether it is being compressed or is rebounding, it is still exerting outward pressure on the needle bearing. Your statement would indicate that the point of pressure on the bearing transitions when the shock begins to extend after being compressed. This is not the case. The only time a transition of in the point of pressure would take place is when the shock is fully extended and pressure exerted beyond that point (as in lifting up on the seat when off of the bike).


Does the float bearing for the Ironhorse kit have the same ID as the other kits?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

DeerhillOG said:


> Does the float bearing for the Ironhorse kit have the same ID as the other kits?


The needle bearing ID and inner ring OD are the same on the special kits for Iron Horse bikes with 10mm hardware. An 8mm stainless bolt with special reducers is included to make this possible.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> The needle bearing ID and inner ring OD are the same on the special kits for Iron Horse bikes with 10mm hardware. An 8mm stainless bolt with special reducers is included to make this possible.


The inner ring is the sleeve that goes over the bolt and contacts the bearing?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

DeerhillOG said:


> The inner ring is the sleeve that goes over the bolt and contacts the bearing?


Yep. That's just bearing speak. Usually when I mention the inner ring I try and put "(axle)" next to it since that's much easier to visualize.


----------



## Steve from JH (Dec 30, 2003)

Here's some proof that installing this kit really makes a difference.

Before installing the bearings I happened to check the sag on my rear shock. It was 5/8", just what I wanted. After installing, wearing the same clothes, about an hour later, the sag was 3/4". 

That's about the same as the difference in sag with the propedal on and with the propedal off.


----------



## dreednya (Mar 9, 2004)

> May not be a wear issue. When the shock is unloaded, clearance between the inner ring and the rollers can often be felt when lifting up on the seat. What the shop is feeling may have been there all along. It's not something you would feel when riding.


Cheers Chris, that is exactly what my LBS was noticing


----------



## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

So, some people here have said that it's known that when the DU bushing/reducers interface wears and develops some play, it may eventually enlarge the shock eye hole if not replaced in time. Is the same logic applicable to the Enduro needle bearing which has a little bit of play by design? Is this amount of play safe for riding? Yes it may be felt when you lift the bike by the saddle which is definitely safe as there's not much load in this case. But actually not only then, because you may also jump on your bike or do other things during a ride so that the rear wheel will be lifted from the ground, and the bearing will get unloaded and then compressed back in a shock manner when the wheel lands on the ground again. Is any amount of play acceptable in the described situation?

Just trying to understand whether I won't make things worse if I switch to the needle bearing instead of getting a fresh set of bushing/reducers.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

shapirus said:


> So, some people here have said that it's known that when the DU bushing/reducers interface wears and develops some play, it may eventually enlarge the shock eye hole if not replaced in time. Is the same logic applicable to the Enduro needle bearing which has a little bit of play by design? Is this amount of play safe for riding? Yes it may be felt when you lift the bike by the saddle which is definitely safe as there's not much load in this case. But actually not only then, because you may also jump on your bike or do other things during a ride so that the rear wheel will be lifted from the ground, and the bearing will get unloaded and then compressed back in a shock manner when the wheel lands on the ground again. Is any amount of play acceptable in the described situation?
> 
> Just trying to understand whether I won't make things worse if I switch to the needle bearing instead of getting a fresh set of bushing/reducers.


The play in a damaged DU/reducer situation and the clearance between the needle rollers and the inner ring are not the same. The DU/reducer setup will always perform poorly if a lot of rotation is required. Just the amount of force required to install and remove most standard shock reducers makes it clear that friction is very high. By the time a DU bushing setup has play, it is the result of damage to the system in the form of ovalization and material being worn off of the bushing and/or reducers. Sometimes the reducers start rotating where they contact the rocker arms. All of this resistance to rotation is what causes the various forms of damage that have been described. In the case of the needle bearing system, the resistance to rotation (and associated damage) is eliminated.


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

shapirus said:


> So, some people here have said that it's known that when the DU bushing/reducers interface wears and develops some play, it may eventually enlarge the shock eye hole if not replaced in time. Is the same logic applicable to the Enduro needle bearing which has a little bit of play by design? Is this amount of play safe for riding? Yes it may be felt when you lift the bike by the saddle which is definitely safe as there's not much load in this case. But actually not only then, because you may also jump on your bike or do other things during a ride so that the rear wheel will be lifted from the ground, and the bearing will get unloaded and then compressed back in a shock manner when the wheel lands on the ground again. Is any amount of play acceptable in the described situation?
> 
> Just trying to understand whether I won't make things worse if I switch to the needle bearing instead of getting a fresh set of bushing/reducers.


I've actually measured some elongation on a friends shock. All the bearing material had worn off the DU Bushing on the two positions inline in the direction of shock movement. So this situation was extreme neglect but it was a short travel XC bike owned by a female who claimed never to feel the play. I rode the bike around the parking lot and the clanking noise was deafening. I can't speak for the RWC Needle bearing kit as I have not done any extended life cycle testing. I don't think they have been out in the field long enough to report any long term problems. But any part on a bike that is neglected will perform poorly.

.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

shapirus said:


> Is any amount of play acceptable in the described situation?


All bearings need some play...

http://www.nationalprecision.com/miniature-bearings/technical-data/radial_and_axial_play.html


----------



## kmacon (Nov 15, 2006)

*Set-up and ride report*

I've had the needle bearing kits (40 and 20) installed on my Trek Top Fuel 69er for two weeks now and have been playing with pressure and sag trying to dial it in.

There is a huge difference in the feel of the bike with the new bearings and it is taking some getting used to. Before, I would run my RP2 shock open with 120 PSI and would use most of the travel on the trails I ride. With the new bearings there was an obvious sag difference the first time I sat on the bike and I went to 150 PSI to get the right sag. When I took it out on the trail it seemed harsh and I was only using about half the travel. I then dropped back to my original 120 PSI and everything went to mush. Too much sag, and a pedal bob that I never had a problem with before, made for a terrible ride.

Right now I am at 135 PSI and the bike is starting to feel about right out on the trail. The sag is a little more than original and I am not using quiet as much of the travel as I originally did. But the active nature of the shock seems to be pretty good now with it smoothing out the bumps like it should with minimal pedal bob when standing and pedaling.

It seems that it took the extra 15 PSI to compensate for the reduced friction in the system. Is this similar to what everybody else is experiencing?


----------



## markcjr (Jul 8, 2004)

Chris, 

What I am not understanding is, why do some people get a set that fits perfectly with no play, and works perfectly. However, many people get a set with play which also works perfectly.

So, why can't you just send out the ones that don't have play? It is frustrating to me that my friend recommended these to me after he installed a set on his trance with perfect fit (no play) and great performance. However, I am on my second set trying to achieve the same fit. Thicker grease did nothing as there is about an 1/8th of an inch of play.

I think that given the option, a customer would prefer the "no play" vs "some play" when the performance is equal.

I am also curious to the answer asked about jumping. 
If the wheel and shock are unweighted in the air, when you come down, does the compression caused by the play cause damage to the bearings?

Thanks,

Mark


----------



## mavis0826 (Jan 15, 2007)

markcjr said:


> Chris,
> 
> What I am not understanding is, why do some people get a set that fits perfectly with no play, and works perfectly. However, many people get a set with play which also works perfectly.
> 
> ...


I bought two from Chris, they had too much play for my liking. I really like the idea behind these bearing so I went to the LBS and bought two more same problem. Chris will tell you until he's blue in the face that you won't feel it riding.I did, my brand new bike felt like a bike that someone rode hard for a couple of years and never changed the DU bushings out. If the shock is weighted all the time the bearing felt great. Definitely faster reacting but the shock will become unweighted and you will feel it. In the end I sent my bearings back and Chris did refund me. The other two are sitting in my tool box. DU bushings with a hard axle and spacer work fine. I don't want to flame his products but if you can live with the play they work better then DU.


----------



## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

Just a thought: Is any of this play some folks are having problems with caused by wear on the shock mounting bolts? I did have more play than I liked when I first put on my bearing kit. When inspeciting the mounting bolt, I saw that it had been eaten up a bit in 2 spots by those silly top hats Fox likes to use. I switched the bolt for a new one I had lying around, and most of the play went away. There's still a little bit of course, but I really have to be looking for it to notice. I certainly don't feel it while riding.


----------



## mavis0826 (Jan 15, 2007)

My bike was brand new only about two weeks of use.


----------



## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

Fair enough. Like I said, just a thought.


----------



## DWDW (Oct 7, 2005)

mavis0826 said:


> I bought two from Chris, they had too much play for my liking. I really like the idea behind these bearing so I went to the LBS and bought two more same problem. Chris will tell you until he's blue in the face that you won't feel it riding.I did, my brand new bike felt like a bike that someone rode hard for a couple of years and never changed the DU bushings out. If the shock is weighted all the time the bearing felt great. Definitely faster reacting but the shock will become unweighted and you will feel it. In the end I sent my bearings back and Chris did refund me. The other two are sitting in my tool box. DU bushings with a hard axle and spacer work fine. I don't want to flame his products but if you can live with the play they work better then DU.


Thanks for this post. I was about to buy a set, but I can't stand play in parts. Guess I will stick with DU for now.


----------



## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

DWDW said:


> Thanks for this post. I was about to buy a set, but I can't stand play in parts. Guess I will stick with DU for now.


Don't worry about the play - I have found that it is REALLY shock dependant. Some shocks have wider eyelets than others - mine were actually TOO TIGHT and didn't allow for free roller bearing movement so they had to be honed out slightly. Very VERY few shocks have eyelets too large to work well with the RWC kit which is FAR superior to DU bushings.

Have FUN!

G MAN


----------



## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> One end of the 06 SL takes the 22mm kit. The reducer kit number at the other end is listed as "213-54-001-A" but we don't have this in our our "key." If you know the reducer face to reducer face span and bolt size, we may have something that will work.


2002 Superlight

Body reducers 213-26-006-F -- 41.15 mm face to face (both together) - 6mm bolt
Shaft reducers 213-29-000-D -- 21.85 mm - 8 mm bolt.

Got something that will work?


----------



## d-bug (Mar 18, 2005)

I've got the play in mine as well. I can see and feel the play happening when I lift the rear of the bike. I've been trying to live with it but am going back to DU bushings when I get around to it. I have only one roller bushing on the shock too (the second is still in the bag). A buddy has both bushings swapped out, and he has zero play; nothing noticeable at all. I'm so envious of him...
The suspension IS more compliant, but the play and me don't agree.
The eyelet on my RP23 does not seem bigger than other shocks I've had. Getting the axle bit in and out of the DU is a nightmare due to being so tight; which is part of the reason I haven't gone back to it yet.


----------



## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Where is the play coming from? Space between bearing and eyelet, or between sleeve and mounting bolt?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Gman086 said:


> Don't worry about the play - I have found that it is REALLY shock dependant. Some shocks have wider eyelets than others - mine were actually TOO TIGHT and didn't allow for free roller bearing movement so they had to be honed out slightly. Very VERY few shocks have eyelets too large to work well with the RWC kit which is FAR superior to DU bushings.
> 
> Have FUN!
> 
> G MAN


Appreciate the props, G MAN. I think this post and many others demonstrate the fact that variations in fit occur in the field. Based on actual experience, expecting a single bearing/inner ring tolerance to have adequate clearance for optimum performance AND no detectable play in ALL applications is not realistic. However, after much consideration, a practical solution, and one that would be very easy to implement on the part of the customer, would be to ship two inner rings with each kit. One of the inner rings would have a slightly larger OD. Since some compression of the bearing takes place when it is pressed into the shock eyelet, the customer would be able to check the fit of inner ring "A" vs. inner ring "B" after installing the bearing into the shock. The larger OD inner ring would be slid into the bearing first, and, if found to rotate smoothly with no binding or perceived roughness, it would be the inner ring of choice. If a tight fit was indicated by roughness and/or binding when testing the larger inner ring, the smaller inner ring would be the obvious choice. It will take some further testing and some manufacturing changes on our part to make this happen, but this is the direction that we are going to take. Rest assured that once this change has been made, we will immediate post on this thread. In the meantime, there is no reason for anyone to miss out on the guaranteed performance gain, as we will make the larger OD inner ring available individually to those customers who would like to try it.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

smilinsteve said:


> Where is the play coming from? Space between bearing and eyelet, or between sleeve and mounting bolt?


Neither. Space between the bearing and eyelet would allow the bearing cup to rotate and would damage the shock eyelet. The bearing cup is a press fit so this is not an issue. Space between the mounting and bolt and inner ring and/or reducing sleeve is not an issue when the kit is properly sized (span wise) and tightened down. This is because the inner ring becomes captive between the rocker arms/frame mounts. When properly installed the inner ring will not move on the bolt but becomes one with the rocker arms. If not, this would also cause damage as the inner ring moved around against the rocker arms. This type of damage is often seen in DU bushing systems where the rotation takes place at the reducer/rocker interface rather than inside the bushing.

What is being discussed is the clearance within the bearing assembly itself, between the rolling elements and the inner ring.


----------



## mtg7aa (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't want to sound too negative, but you'd think a company in the business of selling bearings would have proactively figured out the tolerance issue of....a bearing.

Yes, bearings require very tight tolerances if you aren't using some sort of expandable or contracting device (ie maxle, collets, etc). And, yes, you are at the mercy of different shock manufacturers and their manufacturing when it comes to hole sizing and tolerances of said hole. 

However, that should have been addressed in the design of this bearing kit from the start. It's good to see you guys tackling it now, and if you get it sorted, I'll probably buy a set. But, not until the design is robust.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Sounds like you've been given some excellent engineers advice.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

For those just chiming in.
The problem is the tolerance of shock eyelets themselves. They are a nominal 15.08mm but can be as tight as 15.04mm on shocks I have measured.

This is of course outside the control of people making shock hardware, like Chris and myself, so we have to find a way to accomodate different fits.
The ultimate solution is to have each pin toleranced for that exactly shock and bearing fit. But the cost of such a service is very high.


----------



## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> Neither. Space between the bearing and eyelet would allow the bearing cup to rotate and would damage the shock eyelet. The bearing cup is a press fit so this is not an issue. Space between the mounting and bolt and inner ring and/or reducing sleeve is not an issue when the kit is properly sized (span wise) and tightened down. This is because the inner ring becomes captive between the rocker arms/frame mounts. When properly installed the inner ring will not move on the bolt but becomes one with the rocker arms. If not, this would also cause damage as the inner ring moved around against the rocker arms. This type of damage is often seen in DU bushing systems where the rotation takes place at the reducer/rocker interface rather than inside the bushing.
> 
> What is being discussed is the clearance within the bearing assembly itself, between the rolling elements and the inner ring.


Gotcha. Thanks. 
Don't forget to answer this one



> 2002 Superlight
> 
> Body reducers 213-26-006-F -- 41.15 mm face to face (both together) - 6mm bolt
> Shaft reducers 213-29-000-D -- 21.85 mm - 8 mm bolt.
> ...


----------



## mtg7aa (Jul 11, 2008)

Dougal said:


> For those just chiming in.
> The ultimate solution is to have each pin toleranced for that exactly shock and bearing fit. But the cost of such a service is very high.


I prefer expanding or contracting components, or tapers- it makes for a much more robust (and cheaper) design. Why machine something to a ±0.0002" tolerance when you can improve the design to work better with a ±0.002" tolerance?

Look at the Maxle, Santa Cruz's collet hardware, pinch bolts, countersunk/tapered head bolts, etc. All of those designs end up with zero slop, and don't require ridiculously tight machining tolerances.


----------



## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

smilinsteve said:


> 2002 Superlight
> 
> Body reducers 213-26-006-F -- 41.15 mm face to face (both together) - 6mm bolt
> Shaft reducers 213-29-000-D -- 21.85 mm - 8 mm bolt.
> ...


I think I got it figured out. I would order
NBKRWC3988 -- $28.99 -- 40 mm kit and a couple of shims for a 6 mm bolt to make up the extra 1mm space.
and
NBKRWC2185R -- $22.99 -- 22 mm for the shaft spacing.

Right?
Red spacers are only available on the 22mm kit?


----------



## d-bug (Mar 18, 2005)

Chris2fur said:


> Appreciate the props, G MAN. I think this post and many others demonstrate the fact that variations in fit occur in the field. Based on actual experience, expecting a single bearing/inner ring tolerance to have adequate clearance for optimum performance AND no detectable play in ALL applications is not realistic. However, after much consideration, a practical solution, and one that would be very easy to implement on the part of the customer, would be to ship two inner rings with each kit. One of the inner rings would have a slightly larger OD. Since some compression of the bearing takes place when it is pressed into the shock eyelet, the customer would be able to check the fit of inner ring "A" vs. inner ring "B" after installing the bearing into the shock. The larger OD inner ring would be slid into the bearing first, and, if found to rotate smoothly with no binding or perceived roughness, it would be the inner ring of choice. If a tight fit was indicated by roughness and/or binding when testing the larger inner ring, the smaller inner ring would be the obvious choice. It will take some further testing and some manufacturing changes on our part to make this happen, but this is the direction that we are going to take. Rest assured that once this change has been made, we will immediate post on this thread. In the meantime, there is no reason for anyone to miss out on the guaranteed performance gain, as we will make the larger OD inner ring available individually to those customers who would like to try it.


Chris, this is fantastic news. I'd be up for ordering just the slightly larger OD inner ring. I'd love for my bike to be play free.

Anxiously waiting...


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

smilinsteve said:


> I think I got it figured out. I would order
> NBKRWC3988 -- $28.99 -- 40 mm kit and a couple of shims for a 6 mm bolt to make up the extra 1mm space.
> and
> NBKRWC2185R -- $22.99 -- 22 mm for the shaft spacing.
> ...


Steve, you've pretty much figured it out. Cycle the suspension and check how much rotation takes place at the frame mount. If it's very little, then there is no real performance gain in switching. At the rear, the total span with one shim kit may only come to 40.88, or 0.27mm short. A snug fit is important. You could use a very thin layer of RTV silicone sealant to glue each stainless shim to the end of its respective spacer and let it cure. This would slightly "grow" the assembly for a solid fit.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mtg7aa said:


> I prefer expanding or contracting components, or tapers- it makes for a much more robust (and cheaper) design. Why machine something to a ±0.0002" tolerance when you can improve the design to work better with a ±0.002" tolerance?
> 
> Look at the Maxle, Santa Cruz's collet hardware, pinch bolts, countersunk/tapered head bolts, etc. All of those designs end up with zero slop, and don't require ridiculously tight machining tolerances.


Expanding tapers don't work as bearing surfaces. They just don't.
Trust me, I'm a mechanical engineer.


----------



## wi1trackrider (Jan 26, 2004)

I just read through all 7 pages of this thread, and didn't see any details on what is required on an Intense 5.5 w/RP23 shock. Taking some crude measurements with my metic ruler, I'm coming up with a hair under 22mm for one end (presume the 21.85 size would work), and a hair over 40mm for the other (thinking the 39.88mm size plus shim kit would work). 

If anyone has fitted up a 5.5, please share what you used. I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger on at least the rear/bottom kit. I'm going through (2) bushing/DU kits a year, and am looking for improvement. The $20 "Intense Small Parts" purchases from Competitive Cyclist are adding up. 

Thanks!!!


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

wi1trackrider said:


> I'm going through (2) bushing/DU kits a year, and am looking for improvement.


 Are you replacing the reducers or just the DU Bushings twice a year? What reducers are you using, Fox hat style or a thru axle style? Do you use the correct tool to remove and replace the DU Bushings? All these variables will effect the usable life of your DU Bushings.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

wi1trackrider said:


> I just read through all 7 pages of this thread, and didn't see any details on what is required on an Intense 5.5 w/RP23 shock. Taking some crude measurements with my metic ruler, I'm coming up with a hair under 22mm for one end (presume the 21.85 size would work), and a hair over 40mm for the other (thinking the 39.88mm size plus shim kit would work).
> 
> If anyone has fitted up a 5.5, please share what you used. I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger on at least the rear/bottom kit. I'm going through (2) bushing/DU kits a year, and am looking for improvement. The $20 "Intense Small Parts" purchases from Competitive Cyclist are adding up.
> 
> Thanks!!!


That rear link is indeed a hair over 40mm (41.15). Depending upon tolerances, one shim kit (1mm) may be slightly under what you are looking for. Try the fit first and if the fit into the swing link is not snug (should take some effort to align and slide into place) then you can use a thin coat of silicone sealant (RTV) to "glue" each 0.50mm shim to it's respective spacer. Let it cure and then assemble and re-check the fit.


----------



## DWDW (Oct 7, 2005)

mtg7aa said:


> I don't want to sound too negative, but you'd think a company in the business of selling bearings would have proactively figured out the tolerance issue of....a bearing.
> 
> Yes, bearings require very tight tolerances if you aren't using some sort of expandable or contracting device (ie maxle, collets, etc). And, yes, you are at the mercy of different shock manufacturers and their manufacturing when it comes to hole sizing and tolerances of said hole.
> 
> However, that should have been addressed in the design of this bearing kit from the start. It's good to see you guys tackling it now, and if you get it sorted, I'll probably buy a set. But, not until the design is robust.


Well said, x2 on buying once it is sorted.


----------



## mtg7aa (Jul 11, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I'm a mechanical engineer.


Me too. But, it's not like a did the whole design and left a drawing. Yes, there are many details that would have to be figured out to make a design like that work, but hey, that's why companies hire people like you and I.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mtg7aa said:


> Me too. But, it's not like a did the whole design and left a drawing. Yes, there are many details that would have to be figured out to make a design like that work, but hey, that's why companies hire people like you and I.


Being a mechanical engineer covers a lot of territory and there are many areas of expertise within the field. By suggesting an "expandable" or "contracting device" when the issue is tolerances between needle rollers and the inner ring, you are demonstrating that you don't understand that the inner ring of a needle bearing is the inner race of the bearing. The expandable solutions you mention (such as the Maxle) slide inside of the ID of inner bearing races. They to not take the place of an inner race.


----------



## mtg7aa (Jul 11, 2008)

It's looking less and less likely that I'll buy anything from RWC.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mtg7aa said:


> It's looking less and less likely that I'll buy anything from RWC.


That's an emotional response to a technical issue, which I would not expect in this context. In your field of expertise I would presume you are very capable. Dougal is obviously more expert in this particular area.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mtg7aa said:


> Me too. But, it's not like a did the whole design and left a drawing. Yes, there are many details that would have to be figured out to make a design like that work, but hey, that's why companies hire people like you and I.


The issue is the tolerance of bearing eyelets. You cannot change that as there is no room for anything between the bearing case and the eyelet. The bearing takes on the tolerance of the eyelet. This can vary by 0.04mm in the shocks I have measured.
The inner axle has to be a hardened and ground surface, it is the surface the needle rollers run on. It cannot be tapered or allowed to expand.

Maybe it's time for you to produce a drawing, showing us exactly what you proposed and how you think it will work.
Show us that you really are an engineer and a competent one, your earlier comments didn't.


----------



## SmilMick (Apr 9, 2006)

mtg7aa said:


> It's looking less and less likely that I'll buy anything from RWC.


I dunno man, the more you post, the better RWC ends up sounding :thumbsup:


----------



## wi1trackrider (Jan 26, 2004)

mtnbiker4life said:


> Are you replacing the reducers or just the DU Bushings twice a year? What reducers are you using, Fox hat style or a thru axle style? Do you use the correct tool to remove and replace the DU Bushings? All these variables will effect the usable life of your DU Bushings.


Kind of a mix bag. Usually the DU bushings will last longer than the reducers. (2) sets of reducers to one bushing. I'm using the Fox hat style bushings, which for whatever reason get slop in them after a few months of riding. The current set I have in which are getting sloppy were installed in June. I just figure the aluminum is only good for so long. Typically the 6mm bolt threads start gouging the reducer I.D., then it just gets progressively worse. It's really annoying when I ride too. Everytime the suspension gets unweighted I feel the slop in it upon compression. I ride a lot of rocky rooty trails, so my threshold for tolerance of this is low.

I pulled apart my rear pivot and the reducers look OK yet, but the bushing is hard to tell what shape it's in. The orange-ish rubber lining is pretty much gone, but I don't know if that missing lining is what is causing the slop.

I'm thinking of trying the RWC needle bearing kit, but after reading some of the posts here about having slop in the linkage after installation, I'm a bit gun shy. I'm leaning towards just replacing the bushings and seeing what that does. I'll probably be ordering one of your tools to help with this.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*rough estimate?*



Chris2fur said:


> Based on actual experience, expecting a single bearing/inner ring tolerance to have adequate clearance for optimum performance AND no detectable play in ALL applications is not realistic. However, after much consideration, a practical solution, and one that would be very easy to implement on the part of the customer, would be to ship two inner rings with each kit. One of the inner rings would have a slightly larger OD. Since some compression of the bearing takes place when it is pressed into the shock eyelet, the customer would be able to check the fit of inner ring "A" vs. inner ring "B" after installing the bearing into the shock. The larger OD inner ring would be slid into the bearing first, and, if found to rotate smoothly with no binding or perceived roughness, it would be the inner ring of choice. If a tight fit was indicated by roughness and/or binding when testing the larger inner ring, the smaller inner ring would be the obvious choice. It will take some further testing and some manufacturing changes on our part to make this happen, but this is the direction that we are going to take. Rest assured that once this change has been made, we will immediate post on this thread. In the meantime, there is no reason for anyone to miss out on the guaranteed performance gain, as we will make the larger OD inner ring available individually to those customers who would like to try it.


This sounds good, you have a rough idea as to how far off we can expect this?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

DeerhillOG said:


> This sounds good, you have a rough idea as to how far off we can expect this?


I've found that the even the best estimates are always wrong so I can only promise to post any new developments in this thread.


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I can appreciate the whole needle bearing thing to free up the suspension, and have been giving some serious consideration to converting our Ventana ECDM tandems upper damper pivot, but they don't offer a wide enough version..

The thing is though, all bikes flex when ridden, and some bikes don't even properly align the damper mounts when setting static, how is the needle bearing able to contend with misalignment in use.

As the bikes are ridden, any flex will now be distributed into the damper itself. An air shock with so many sliding "sleeves" can deal with this somewhat on account of the added strength, but a coil over will be placed into side loads of the shaft, piston band and body.

Is anyone offering a spherical bearing replacement for Fox dampers? This would free up not only the pivots, but also the damper when in use.

PK


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Last week I installed the enduro shock eye needle bearing kit on my Anthem X. The alu reducers were just starting to wear and the DU bushing as well.

I can't say I noticed much difference but the product seems well made and the tolerances are good so there is definitely no slop.

The DU bushings have a pretty short lifespan on the Anthem X and as soon as the inner bearing surface is gone they start to wear the reducers. Once there is the slightest play in the reducers then they hammer themselves to greater and greater play. If the needle bearing kit results in a longer lifespan then its a winner, even if on the Anthem X it doesn't offer a night and day performance advantage. Cost wise its also a winner - at my LBS the cost of a DU bush and the alu reducers is more than the RWC NBKRWC22R bearing kit complete.


----------



## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

Chris, what kind of grease would you generally recommend for the needle bearing? For example, I have Rock'N'Roll Super Coat grease, Rock'N'Roll Super Web grease and some super water resistant marine grease (Slipkote Marine MP-2).

Which of them you think will be better and why?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

shapirus said:


> Chris, what kind of grease would you generally recommend for the needle bearing? For example, I have Rock'N'Roll Super Coat grease, Rock'N'Roll Super Web grease and some super water resistant marine grease (Slipkote Marine MP-2).
> 
> Which of them you think will be better and why?


Good question. We pre-pack them with Realube Bearing Compound. You may have noticed that there is not a lot extra space for packing in grease. For this reason, grease retention was our main concern. So far, the sealing system seems to be very good at keeping the grease in and contaminants out. The Super Coat is a great heavy-duty assembly grease and the Super Web is an excellent bearing grease. However, out of the choices you have provided, I would go with the Slipkote Marine MP-2. It's the closest to the Realube as far as it's anti-corrosion properties.


----------



## kmacon (Nov 15, 2006)

Recent posts here have seemed a little skewed. So I would like to report ZERO slop. Replaced both the upper and lower DU bushings with the RWC needle bearings on my Trek TF 69er and they are much, much better than the DU bushings!


----------



## Hydesg (Jul 4, 2010)

hey Chris,

May I know what sized shims should I get for my 2010 Trance X1?
6.03mm or 8.03mm?

Thanks!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Hydesg said:


> hey Chris,
> 
> May I know what sized shims should I get for my 2010 Trance X1?
> 6.03mm or 8.03mm?
> ...


No shims required for your bike. Part number NBKRWC2185 at the rocker connection is all you need.


----------



## KRUNNCH (Jul 8, 2008)

I don't see my frame listed on your website - it is a Giant NRS 3 (2003). Is this compatible with your kit?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

KRUNNCH said:


> I don't see my frame listed on your website - it is a Giant NRS 3 (2003). Is this compatible with your kit?


The rocker span is almost 50mm (49.78) so it's a bit of a stretch to shim from the 40mm kit. There are a few other in this range so we will eventually cover it.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Dougal said:


> The issue is the tolerance of bearing eyelets. You cannot change that as there is no room for anything between the bearing case and the eyelet. The bearing takes on the tolerance of the eyelet. This can vary by 0.04mm in the shocks I have measured.
> The inner axle has to be a hardened and ground surface, it is the surface the needle rollers run on. It cannot be tapered or allowed to expand.


Exactly, and right from the horse's mouth....

http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=1_5_5

"Drawn cup needle roller bearings	
Tolerances

The dimensional accuracy of drawn cup needle roller bearings cannot be checked until they have been mounted, because the thin-walled outer ring may be slightly out-of-round. Only after the bearing has been pressed into a housing bore that is machined to the recommended tolerance classes can the outer ring obtain its correct form, which is crucial for bearing performance. To check the inside diameter Fw of the roller set, the bearing must first be pressed into a thick-walled gauge ring with a bore diameter as listed in the table. A measuring mandrel can then be used to check the inside diameter deviation. The permissible deviations are also listed in the table.

The tolerance values listed are in accordance with ISO 3245:2007, as far as they have been standardized.

The width tolerance is 0/-0,3 mm for all drawn cup needle roller bearing sizes."

The other alternative is to use bushings like we already do.

So, shock manufacturers should have to adjust their "sloppy" tolerances. Now, they may be loose, but that's because the bushings can take looser tolerances.

NTN has more literature here on how to select bearing tolerances.

An acceptable solution would be to ream the shock eyelet just like we ream seat tubes, headtubes and now, bottom brackets. Another would be to run the bearings outboard (hint, hint, designers... ) like we do in the BB, but not all frames can take that. For instance, my Nicolai could use outboard needle bearings on BOTH sides of the rear mount of the shock, but there's no room on the front one.


----------



## tscheezy (Dec 19, 2003)

Got a set installed in the upper RP23 eyelet on two different DW Turner 5-Spots.

No slop.

I don't notice any benefit in terms of freeing up the suspension action.

I am mostly looking for long term durability over the stock DU bushing system. I assume it will deliver in that department. The short rocker on the DW bikes create a lot of upper eyelet rotation.


----------



## Steve from JH (Dec 30, 2003)

tscheezy said:


> Got a set installed in the upper RP23 eyelet on two different DW Turner 5-Spots.
> 
> No slop.
> 
> ...


I posted this up above but it kind of got lost.

I noticed more sag after installing the kit on both eyelets of an RP23 on a Felt Compulsion. (The Equilink is a better design than a DW link, in my opinion). It was somewhat like the difference between testing sag with pro-pedal on and with pro-pedal off.

I also noticed the shock o-ring indicating more overall travel when riding exactly the same trails the same way.


----------



## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

*Schloppy*



tscheezy said:


> Got a set installed in the upper RP23 eyelet on two different DW Turner 5-Spots.
> 
> No slop.


You got lucky cheezy, (or I got unlucky). My 2010 5-Spot does have noticeable play, that "lift from the seat" clunk. I only changed the upper DU bushing so can't comment on the chances of this.
It's obviously the RWC bearing, I can feel the upper eyelet move.


----------



## Smiff (May 1, 2008)

hi i've been trying to contact RWC at [email protected] but not sure if they're getting through?

here's a copy paste of relevant part of my email:

"
previously for [2008 Trek Top Fuel 9 Alu] your needle bearing shock
mount kit table listed 40mm and 22mm, seemed correct to me.
now it lists 21.85 and 35.5, which i don't think can be right. have you
checked this data? possibly copy/paste error.
https://www.enduroforkseals.com/id276.html

the suspension design is this one [older design with separate link arms, not Evo]:
https://stevelummer.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/bush-mountain-bike.jpg
(ignore the man holding the bike)

i measure the top rocker point at close to 40mm and the bottom at 22mm
(can't find calipers right now but this is within a mm), so hoping the
39.88 mm one will work? your spacers at 0.5mm seem too thick to be of
use in this case so i'm hoping for a direct fit.

also your advice to fit at the smaller end (21.85) seems wrong as with
this bike, there is more rotation at the [wider] top rocker link, the bottom
fixed pivot hardly moves by comparison.
"

I guess its possible that the rocker mount is slightly under 39.88 and you're advising to shim up from 35.5 to nearly 40 but this seems unlikely, i think you were right before with it being almost exactly 40. and the advice to do the frame end first makes no sense to me since that fixed mount hardly has any rotation afaik.

looks like a mistake in the Trek section of the table.

Would appreciate some advice especially if RWC participate in this thread?  and since i'm in the UK returning parts would be difficult. thanks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Smiff: Most of our data is good, but sometimes even manufacturer's data can be wrong. An actually measurement of the frame mounts is hard to argue with. We'll get this updated in the chart. For the upper mount go with the 39.88 kit. For the lower "fixed" frame mount you will be fine staying with the stock setup as there is little rotation as opposed to the "full-floater" frames.


----------



## Smiff (May 1, 2008)

thanks Chris, did you get my mail? can you maybe check RWC's spam folder?  had some questions about other stock aswell.

looking at your table i think many of the Trek entries must be wrong, do you have a backup of the old table? most of them are 40/22 (or 39.88/21.85).
edit: great I see you've corrected lots of that already, should save some upset customers 
btw there was a Top Fuel 9 you can add to 2008: Top Fuel 7, 8, 69er (maybe it was europe only or something, identical frame to the 8 just diff. paint job, got it as an 'upgrade' for broken 8).

you don't make shims thinner than 0.5mm do you? i may be able to find something if needed. something waffer thin.

one more thing, which is a whole topic in itself sorry: anyone else somewhere really muddy like the UK tried these needle bearings? i'm thinking i may be increasing maintenance by going from bushes to bearings - not really what i want to do! thanks.


----------



## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

> you don't make shims thinner than 0.5mm do you? i may be able to find something if needed. something waffer thin.


Beer can. Still too thick? Aluminum foil.


----------



## Smiff (May 1, 2008)

Chris: orders outside US over $300 included USPS doesn't seem to be working? Air priority shows as free but i'm not sure what this is and don't want to risk no insurance. do you not offer any couriers like DHL/Fedex etc?
sorry, don't know how else to contact you!
unfortunately the basket will time out so i'll have to do order all over again, this is a bummer, have to go to bed now..

edit: my bad, Air Priority is the free option, and it includes insurance i'm guessing? i'll order, don't want to redo this again. http://www.auctioninc.com/ is running like poo though.
not going to include any lubes (would like to, your prices are great) because i don't know if they'll cause air problems, you never got back to my email about that :/


----------



## Rhinofly (Aug 30, 2010)

I installed a pair (top and bottom eyes) of these on the RP23 on my 2008 RFX and the fit was perfect. There was no slop at all once everything was bolted up. And the action is perfectly smooth. Its exactly what I was hoping for. Having said that, I did not notice much difference, if any, in the ride. But I am happy. The price seems reasonable and I expect they will last better than DU's if kept greased. But time will tell. 

I am curious about one thing though. Does the load get carried by a small subset of the needle bearing assembly or is it farily evenly loaded around the full set of bearings? After all, the shock eye does not undergo full revolutions but rather small angle oscillations. This speaks to how the bearing wears and if it would benefit from periodic removal/rotation within the shock eye.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Smiff said:


> Chris: orders outside US over $300 included USPS doesn't seem to be working? Air priority shows as free but i'm not sure what this is and don't want to risk no insurance. do you not offer any couriers like DHL/Fedex etc?
> sorry, don't know how else to contact you!
> unfortunately the basket will time out so i'll have to do order all over again, this is a bummer, have to go to bed now..
> 
> ...


Never got a notification about this post for some reason or your email, but I think you figured everything out except whether or not insurance was included on the "free USPS Priority" option. Yes it is. Oh, you also asked about the lubes. One or two is OK. Larger quantities are a problem.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Rhinofly said:


> I installed a pair (top and bottom eyes) of these on the RP23 on my 2008 RFX and the fit was perfect. There was no slop at all once everything was bolted up. And the action is perfectly smooth. Its exactly what I was hoping for. Having said that, I did not notice much difference, if any, in the ride. But I am happy. The price seems reasonable and I expect they will last better than DU's if kept greased. But time will tell.
> 
> I am curious about one thing though. Does the load get carried by a small subset of the needle bearing assembly or is it farily evenly loaded around the full set of bearings? After all, the shock eye does not undergo full revolutions but rather small angle oscillations. This speaks to how the bearing wears and if it would benefit from periodic removal/rotation within the shock eye.


Yes, similar to a suspension pivot bearing, the load is not equally shared all the way around the bearing. Just as we prefer the MAX bearings for suspension pivots, our shock eye needle bearing kits use a full-complement needle bearing for greater strength. I think removing and re-installing the bearing in a different position would be overkill. Spinning the inner ring around several times when doing a re-lube should be fine.


----------



## kmacon (Nov 15, 2006)

Chris2fur said:


> Spinning the inner ring around several times when doing a re-lube should be fine.


Speaking of re-lubing, is there any data on how soon or often this should be done?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

kmacon said:


> Speaking of re-lubing, is there any data on how soon or often this should be done?


The grease seems to being staying clean in all cases we have received reports on. It would probably be a good idea to re-lube every 3 months or so, taking the time to spin the inner ring for a few full rotations before re-assembling.


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Well this is a little disappointing. After putting about 200 off road km on this bearing on my Anthem X it's developed enough play (a bit over 0.05mm) that it makes a knocking noise:










This amount of play is what you get between having the bike sit on its wheels and by lifting it up by the seatpost, unloading the rear wheel. If you push or pull on the rear wheel you can get much greater readings but they may not be accurate as flex in the linkages may come into play.

Scroll down the end of this article to see a bigger pic on the setup I used to measure the play.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Have you stripped it to see if anything is obviously wrong?
I've done maybe 200km on mine, no change yet but I really should do more riding.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

TigWorld said:


> Well this is a little disappointing. After putting about 200 off road km on this bearing on my Anthem X it's developed enough play (a bit over 0.05mm) that it makes a knocking noise:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you obtained this measurement from the get-go, it would be understandable and would be a tolerance issue that could be addressed. "Developing" play is another matter. Something would have to wear or loosen. Wear is highly unlikely. 
Are you sure the inner ring is captured between the rocker arms? Another possibility is that the clearance hasn't really changed but grease displacement made it more noticeable. I'm not disputing the readings, just the change, which would be a first. We have never had a wear issue since we've been selling this kit.


----------



## Smiff (May 1, 2008)

Chris - just quickly: awesome service thanks received my package from you already on Monday. less than a week to the UK! all looks perfect. thanks, sorry about all the long and annoying emails, will know to trust you in future! 

as soon as i get chance to work on bike i will confirm both the needle bearing and frame pivot fits
(as I said hardly worth doing a 'kit' for the old trek R1/single pivot bikes as its just one pair of bearing and some plastic bushes unfortunately :/)

i will have to bug a dealer here for the plastic R1 rocker bushes i guess, you not planning on doing those? can't really be improved i guess 

for anyone else in the UK wondering about the delivery time, 5 days using Air Priority inc a weekend, go for it (may get worse towards xmas i guess..)

going to be a fun weekend using all the parts i got from to rebuild frame, fork and rear shock - a whole weekend at the rate i do things (sadly not being sarcastic) but the weather is so s**t here i don't really mind not riding either :/


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Chris2fur / Dougal

OK, I've stripped the bearing and the play is coming from wear in the graphite?/plastic? sleeve that goes between the inner bearing race and the shock bolt. You can actually see how the hole is off-center in this pic:










One edge is 1.1mm thick and the other 0.95. I measured these with a vernier (not the best way to measure wall thickness of a part like this) so the absolute numbers may not be highly accurate, but the difference in the measurements in significant and apparent to the naked eye.

I measured the runout of the Giant shock bolt over its length to see if it could be cause of the wear to the sleeve. It measures 5.93mm over its length with no measurable runout. The bolt seems to be of high quality and features a machined surface (hence the lack of runout).

The needle bearing itself seems perfect and the seals have done a good job to keep the factory grease clean.

Any ideas on how to fix this? A harder sleeve would do the job but I want to avoid having to make a replacement steel sleeve as it'll consume a whole afternoon by the time I make and grind a reamer to get the ID perfect to match the factory bold OD.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

TigWorld said:


> Chris2fur / Dougal
> 
> OK, I've stripped the bearing and the play is coming from wear in the graphite?/plastic? sleeve that goes between the inner bearing race and the shock bolt. You can actually see how the hole is off-center in this pic:
> 
> ...


The fact that the sleeve is wearing indicates that the inner ring is moving. This should not happen. When installing the needle bearing, the final hardware tightening should take place with the shock loaded (lean down on the seat with your body while tightening the hardware). At this point, the inner ring should be "pinched" tightly between the rocker arms and not be able to rotate or move around.

We'll be glad to send another sleeve. Just PM me your address or email me. One more thing--check the hardware to be sure that the threads of the bolt do not bottom against the nut before the inner ring is "captured." You may need a washer under the bolt head or nut if this is the case.


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Great. Thanks for the timely advice.

PM sent.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

As Chris has said, that spacer is only there to keep the bolt centred during installation. Once the bolt is nipped up, it's just along for the ride.
When the bolt is torqued properly, all the load should be carried in friction between the end of the 11mm sleeve and the rocker arms. The bolt is just there to provide the tension to hold it together.


----------



## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

NBKRWC22 -> NBKRWC2185: just a name change?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

shapirus said:


> NBKRWC22 -> NBKRWC2185: just a name change?


Yes. As we do more sizes, we have to get more specific. For example, we are soon releasing a 22.20mm kit so we will now have a NBKRWC2188 and a NBKRWC2220.


----------



## fixbikeguy (Aug 28, 2008)

Any idea as to what sizes I will need to get for a Banshee legend? Thanks.


----------



## builttoride (Jan 15, 2007)

fixbikeguy said:


> Any idea as to what sizes I will need to get for a Banshee legend? Thanks.


22.2x8mm at both ends.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

builttoride said:


> 22.2x8mm at both ends.


Thanks for that! This bike was not in our database and it's impossible to "eyeball" the difference between 21.85mm and 22.20mm. For those interested, the 22.2mm is about 2 weeks away, and, yes, that small difference in span does make a difference. The rocker link mount is fixed and will not "pinch" the inner ring when the bolt is tightened. Therefore, getting the 22.2mm kit will be critical. BTW, beautiful frame (many more pics like this on the Banshee site):


----------



## Radical_53 (Nov 22, 2006)

I simply used some small spacers from a local machine shop to get from 21.8 to 22.2  It's not as easy to install though.


----------



## Staffan (Sep 18, 2005)

Fitted the needle bearings to a new Monarch RT3. Slop at both ends, so I´m waiting for the oversize axles to be produced.

/S


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Staffan said:


> Fitted the needle bearings to a new Monarch RT3. Slop at both ends, so I´m waiting for the oversize axles to be produced.
> 
> /S


We are actually making changes to the bearing itself so that in the majority of cases it can be used with the current inner rings. When the bearing changes are made, it will be easier for us to turn down some inner rings to a smaller OD for for those cases where clearance is lacking between the rollers and inner ring. Hoping to have the next batch of bearings within a couple weeks...


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Staffan said:


> Fitted the needle bearings to a new Monarch RT3. Slop at both ends, so I´m waiting for the oversize axles to be produced.
> 
> /S


Just curious, in what application you are running the RT3?


----------



## Staffan (Sep 18, 2005)

I´ve put the RT3 on a Knolly DT, in place of a CCDB, to lighten it up a bit for some easy riding in the woods this winter.

/S


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Staffan said:


> I´ve put the RT3 on a Knolly DT, in place of a CCDB, to lighten it up a bit for some easy riding in the woods this winter.
> 
> /S


From what I hear the Monarchs keep getting better and the 2011's are supposed to be impressive.


----------



## Jeff in Bend (Jun 5, 2010)

When if ever will there be a kit for Ventana frames?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Jeff in Bend said:


> When if ever will there be a kit for Ventana frames?


Jeff, yes there will be. The short rockers with a lot of rotation at the shock eye make the Ventana frames a prime candidate. The Fox database lists the reducers at both ends at 21.85mm. That may be what Ventana orders them at, but certainly not what ends up at the rocker mount. I think the span is closer to 50mm and I'm not sure on the bolt size. If you have this info that would be great. Otherwise, I'll contact Ventana.


----------



## Marmoto (Sep 10, 2007)

I also have noticeable slop in my Monarch RT3 (recently fitted with RWC needle bearings and installed in my Mojo SL). I like how it rides and the small bump sensitivity improvement, but I notice the slop in small jumps. In bigger jumps I don't pay attention to any slop


----------



## Jeff in Bend (Jun 5, 2010)

Chris2fur said:


> Jeff, yes there will be. The short rockers with a lot of rotation at the shock eye make the Ventana frames a prime candidate. The Fox database lists the reducers at both ends at 21.85mm. That may be what Ventana orders them at, but certainly not what ends up at the rocker mount. I think the span is closer to 50mm and I'm not sure on the bolt size. If you have this info that would be great. Otherwise, I'll contact Ventana.


On my bike the space between the rockers is 54mm measureing with a metric ruler. The lower measures just under 22mm so 21.85mm seems correct. My bolt is 6mm. I would contact Sherwood and ask him directly though.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Marmoto said:


> I also have noticeable slop in my Monarch RT3 (recently fitted with RWC needle bearings and installed in my Mojo SL). I like how it rides and the small bump sensitivity improvement, but I notice the slop in small jumps. In bigger jumps I don't pay attention to any slop


Stay tuned for updates on a modified batch of bearings. No ETA yet, but it's being worked on.


----------



## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

Just another report for statistics.

Installed the 21.85mm kit on my Giant Trance X (w/Float RP23) yesterday. Some amount of play is clearly noticeable when I lift the bike by the saddle. It's slightly less than it was with the worn DU bushing which was actually replaced with the needle bearing.
The effect with more sag under the same pressure is clearly visible and now I can even feel the difference between propedal 1 and propedal off (easily noticeable). Feels really smooth.
Didn't ride it yet.

Looking forward to try the bigger inner ring when they're available. Like everyone, I hope to achieve smooth rotation with no (or very little) play. That said, I'm sure it will be well usable as is, even with the standard inner ring.


----------



## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

Chris2fur said:


> Stay tuned for updates on a modified batch of bearings. No ETA yet, but it's being worked on.


I haven't followed this thread for a while, but does this have to do with RS having a **slightly** different diameter DU? Push mentioned this in another thread a little while back. Maybe I can find it.


----------



## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

Here it is:

"If you were using the black hard anodized 3 piece system, than that is the system I'm referring to. If you were using it in a FOX shock however that's where your problem is coming from. The RS eyelet is a slightly different tolerance than the FOX and requires a different DU along with the hardware to retrofit it the kit."

and

"Since RS changed from metric to english units for there hardware on the first year Vivid. The total tolerance on the bore for the DU is 0.0007"(0.018mm) with RS staying on the high side and FOX staying on the low side. There is also a 0.0003"(0.008mm) difference in the mount reducer OD between brands which makes a difference of 0.001"(0.025mm). Really small numbers for sure, but numbers that make a difference...hence why we have two different DU bushings made for us. In general you can put FOX hardware into an RS shock, but RS hardware into a FOX shock will slip in easier and develop play quite quickly in a lot of applications where you have high rotation such as a mini link bike."


----------



## ddavis (Jan 16, 2004)

Just got my RWC kit in for my Turner Flux. We mounted 2 different shocks actually due to trying to diagnose the play. I think the larger OD inner ring may solve our issues. Cant wait to try it on the trail.


----------



## chauzie (Mar 8, 2010)

Chris,

do you guys plan to have a kit (at least for the upper link) for a Specialized 2007 S-Works Enduro?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

chauzie said:


> Chris,
> 
> do you guys plan to have a kit (at least for the upper link) for a Specialized 2007 S-Works Enduro?


It's either 15.75 or 21.85. The diagrams from Specialized don't list the measurement and the drawings for each span look the same. Also, the reducer size is not listed in the Fox shock reducer database (possibly because it's running an "AFR" shock). What shock are you running on it? If you have switched to a Fox shock, then one of our kits will work. You just have to verify the reducer span as indicated by the "?" below:


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

ddavis said:


> Just got my RWC kit in for my Turner Flux. We mounted 2 different shocks actually due to trying to diagnose the play. I think the larger OD inner ring may solve our issues. Cant wait to try it on the trail.


We have a limited supply of a new run of needle bearings. This latest batch has been adjusted for a tighter fit with the inner ring. Anyone who has previously purchased one of our kits and who feels they would benefit from running the new needle bearing can contact us through the website. You will need to re-use your existing inner ring, spacers, seals, and bolt size reducer sleeve (if applicable) as we will be supplying the needle bearing cup and rollers only. Please don't request a bearing unless you are certain you need it. If the current fit of your existing kit is good, changing the bearing just for the sake of it would not be a good idea (could end up being too tight).


----------



## adamantane (Jan 27, 2005)

looking for cannondale prophet kit...earlier this year you mentioned "37.59mm x 8 = NBKRWC35 plus two shim kits for 8mm bolt (follow the link from the specific kit)"
but i dont see this kit on your website..EDIT, found the right kit...so if i order i will get the bearings from the new batch presumably?

thanks for your help


----------



## Marmoto (Sep 10, 2007)

*New needle bearings = no slop*

Good news,

Yesterday I received the new tight fit needle bearings from Chris (RWC) and immediately I installed them in my two shocks (my IBIS frame only uses one shock  , the other is an spare one  )

Bingo!. There is no noticeable slop at all and the axle remains with no friction. Today I went for a short ride trying to eat all the bumps available and I'm delighted because it works flawless: no play, buttery smooth and the best small bump compliance ever (well, I've also modified the IFP chamber pressure in my 2011 RS Monarch RT3 http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=524727)

Chris, IMO you've finally managed to have a perfect product :thumbsup:


----------



## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> We have a limited supply of a new run of needle bearings.


Are they still available? I haven't noticed your post before


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

shapirus said:


> Are they still available? I haven't noticed your post before


Yes. In fact, the supply is no longer "limited." Many of the new kits are now shipping out with the new needle bearing installed. Kits that were built without the new needle bearing are shipped out with a separately packaged new needle bearing to swap with the one in the kit. As stated before, those who bought older versions that need a tighter fit between the inner ring and needle rollers can contact us via email for a replacement bearing.


----------



## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

So, are there any more reports of the system with the new bearings? Are the new bearings designed to be tighter, and to have LESS play rather than eliminate it altogether? Is Marmoto's experience above a one off, or should they all be like his (for all bikes)?

Because Im certainly interested in the higher sensitivity of free(er) rotation at the shock mount, but I cant stand even the smallest amount of play. I would opt for the tighter, stock set up with no play (assuming the busing isnt worn) over even a small amount of play every time. I replace my bushings as soon as there is a hint of play from being worn.


----------



## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> As stated before, those who bought older versions that need a tighter fit between the inner ring and needle rollers can contact us via email for a replacement bearing.


Any word on when you expect the DU bushing removal tool to be in stock again? I was thinking of getting it and asking for the tighter fit bearing to be sent in the same package to optimize shipping.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

shapirus said:


> Any word on when you expect the DU bushing removal tool to be in stock again? I was thinking of getting it and asking for the tighter fit bearing to be sent in the same package to optimize shipping.


Should be ready to ship tomorrow or Wednesday--enroute to the warehouse right now.


----------



## be350ka (Dec 17, 2004)

IntenseMack10 said:


> So, are there any more reports of the system with the new bearings? Are the new bearings designed to be tighter, and to have LESS play rather than eliminate it altogether? Is Marmoto's experience above a one off, or should they all be like his (for all bikes)?
> 
> Because Im certainly interested in the higher sensitivity of free(er) rotation at the shock mount, but I cant stand even the smallest amount of play. I would opt for the tighter, stock set up with no play (assuming the busing isnt worn) over even a small amount of play every time. I replace my bushings as soon as there is a hint of play from being worn.


Same here! When the reports of NO play start coming in on a regular basis and there are NO new cases of play I will jump in!

I too am a guy that cant stand a squeak, creak, snap, thud, etc on my bikes. OCD......Probably.


----------



## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

be350ka said:


> Same here! When the reports of NO play start coming in on a regular basis and there are NO new cases of play I will jump in!
> 
> I too am a guy that cant stand a squeak, creak, snap, thud, etc on my bikes. OCD......Probably.


I hear ya, I'm the same way. I will say that the service from Chris has been above and beyond. 
In regards to some mis-ordered wheel bearings on my part, Chris went above and beyond to correct my error despite a loss to RWC. Meanwhile, the needle bearing problem it seems is being handled.
I have absolute confidence at this point.


----------



## sandatos (Feb 18, 2009)

Any news from the "no play" bearings ?

Or is it "no news good news ?"


----------



## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

sandatos said:


> Any news from the "no play" bearings ?
> 
> Or is it "no news good news ?"


Yeah, Id still like to know. In the meantime, I called Fox and got the single piece steel pin style reducer for my DHX Air. Even though its not a bearing system, this setup is much better than the standard 2 piece style. In my experience with the steel pin style on my CCDB, it works great. Once the bushing wears in the steel pin rotates freely in the bushing, yet after months of use there is no play from excessive wear in the bushing.

A possible alternative to those waiting on the bearings, but wanting something better than the standard 2 piece reducers.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Much better fit on the RP23 boost also*



sandatos said:


> Any news from the "no play" bearings ?
> 
> Or is it "no news good news ?"


I jumped at it and ordered that night 25th. Replacement showed up free on the 2nd. Nice fix


----------



## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

Just installed the new tighter outer race with rollers which was sent to me as a replacement. Indeed, the amount of play is less now, however, there is still some play and I can still feel it by lifting the bike by the saddle. Will see how it performs. Surely I will not notice this play while riding normally, but I'm afraid that it may still be noticeable when the rear wheel gets unloaded. If this play stays the same over time and I don't feel it while riding, then I think I can live with it. If not, will consider moving back to DU bushings or something like the single piece reducer mentioned above.


----------



## ddavis (Jan 16, 2004)

I've got a few weeks on the new bearings. No play still. Thats using them for upper and lower mounts on the shock. Definitely worth it now.


----------



## mazspeed (Oct 17, 2004)

I wish I had seen this thread weeks ago. I ordered a set of bearings formy mojo HD with a rp23 and they came in and Trailhead in San Jose installed it, and they said the play was so bad, they didn't recommend keeping them in, so they took them out. Not sure the mojo needed bearings since it doesnt articulate as much as many of the other designs, but wanted to try them anyways. I will wait for a better design, but I do like the fact the owner is on the forums answering questions,


----------



## Mark G (Dec 23, 2005)

Chris, is there any possibility that the 575 will be added to the shock list.
Cheers Mark


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mazspeed said:


> I wish I had seen this thread weeks ago. I ordered a set of bearings formy mojo HD with a rp23 and they came in and Trailhead in San Jose installed it, and they said the play was so bad, they didn't recommend keeping them in, so they took them out. Not sure the mojo needed bearings since it doesnt articulate as much as many of the other designs, but wanted to try them anyways. I will wait for a better design, but I do like the fact the owner is on the forums answering questions,


If you got the kits "weeks ago" there is good chance you have the older bearing assembly. We probably already have what you need. Contact me so we can get you replacements. I trust you kept the spacers, seals, and inner rings? The rear mount on the Mojo does rotate a fair amount and is worth the upgrade. The front mount is definitely optional (only rotates a little at the very end of the stroke).


----------



## Jeff in Bend (Jun 5, 2010)

Chris,
I'm still looking for a Ventana, any ETA?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Jeff in Bend said:


> Chris,
> I'm still looking for a Ventana, any ETA?


Jeff, sorry no ETA yet. We've been struggling to keep up with current demand and just recently completed one new size--22.20mm.


----------



## Evan55 (Jul 23, 2009)

yeah my shock is off and ready to get a new bushing, I may just have to go with the stock bushing for this season.

Maybe technically speaking a tiny bit of play isnt a bad thing and not noticable while riding, but testing for play is how I judge the overall health of all the bearings to determine replacement, so I dont want any "as designed" play there.


----------



## mazspeed (Oct 17, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> If you got the kits "weeks ago" there is good chance you have the older bearing assembly. We probably already have what you need. Contact me so we can get you replacements. I trust you kept the spacers, seals, and inner rings? The rear mount on the Mojo does rotate a fair amount and is worth the upgrade. The front mount is definitely optional (only rotates a little at the very end of the stroke).


I will call the shop today Chris and find out. Thanks. Do you need a number or a id number from the part I ordered?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mazspeed said:


> I will call the shop today Chris and find out. Thanks. Do you need a number or a id number from the part I ordered?


No, don't really care about any of that. Just need to know how many cup and needle roller assemblies you need and where to send them.


----------



## mazspeed (Oct 17, 2004)

Chris, that's really good of you. Send it to Trailhead cyclery at 14390 Union Ave
San Jose, CA 95124. I will find out in a bit about the rest of the parts. Thanks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mazspeed said:


> Chris, that's really good of you. Send it to Trailhead cyclery at 14390 Union Ave
> San Jose, CA 95124. I will find out in a bit about the rest of the parts. Thanks.


Just one or did you do both ends?


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Chris have you offered yet a size long enough to fit the Ventana ECDM tandems upper pivot?

The pivot supplied from Ventana is not a Fox split bushing set, but rather a Ventana design that is two piece, but has the joint near one end of the pivot pin. Basically a shouldered pin with a matching cup.

FWIW, these are for a 54mm span and need a 6mm bore.

Thanks
PK


----------



## nightnerd (Mar 5, 2007)

Hey Chris,
Are you guys planning to make one 28.45 mm kit?


----------



## MiLi (Aug 23, 2008)

i installed this new needle bearings and it works perfect. there is still some play but 80% less than on my old bearing  this play is quite hard to notice even if i lift the bike by the saddle. my hardtail have more play now . if this bearing work the same after some time it will be great and i will buy it again. 

on old bearing with lots of play i made 600km but play didn't become more noticeable.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

PMK said:


> Chris have you offered yet a size long enough to fit the Ventana ECDM tandems upper pivot?
> 
> The pivot supplied from Ventana is not a Fox split bushing set, but rather a Ventana design that is two piece, but has the joint near one end of the pivot pin. Basically a shouldered pin with a matching cup.
> 
> ...


Is that different than the pin set they make for their full suspension mountain bikes?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

nightnerd said:


> Hey Chris,
> Are you guys planning to make one 28.45 mm kit?


Eventually. In the meantime our "2540" kit plus three shim kits would be within 0.05mm.


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> Is that different than the pin set they make for their full suspension mountain bikes?


Not 100% certain, but I do know some frames have 8mm bolts while others 6mm.

The tandem is 6mm and should likely stay at 6mm without an insert.

Never measured the lower pivot, but it barely moves.

PK


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

PMK said:


> Not 100% certain, but I do know some frames have 8mm bolts while others 6mm.
> 
> The tandem is 6mm and should likely stay at 6mm without an insert.
> 
> ...


The lower pivot is a 21.8mm x 6mm reducer.


----------



## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Chris2fur said:


> Is that different than the pin set they make for their full suspension mountain bikes?


It's the same 6mm by 54mm.


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

PMK said:


> Chris have you offered yet a size long enough to fit the Ventana ECDM tandems upper pivot?
> 
> The pivot supplied from Ventana is not a Fox split bushing set, but rather a Ventana design that is two piece, but has the joint near one end of the pivot pin. Basically a shouldered pin with a matching cup.
> 
> ...


I personally think creating a RWC Needle Kit for a 54mm span will only yield bad results.......it's just too wide for a 11mm pin with a 8mm ID with that phenolic sleeve.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mtnbiker4life said:


> I personally think creating a RWC Needle Kit for a 54mm span will only yield bad results.......it's just too wide for a 11mm pin with a 8mm ID with that phenolic sleeve.


I think the Ventana short rocker design is a particularly good candidate for a needle bearing. If we make a dedicated Ventana kit, we will do a full width inner ring for 6mm bolt that would need no reducer sleeve. I will look into it....


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Ciclistagonzo said:


> It's the same 6mm by 54mm.


Somehow our tandem came with an 8mm ID upper bushing, the frame on the tandem is 6mm. Checking with Ventana, Theresa said some of the bikes (DH maybe) had the 8 mm ID pivot, all Tandems have 6mm.

We got our bike used so maybe someone screwed up.

But yes, 6mm ID, 54mm span. Sherwood does not use Fox spacers that are identical left and right, splitting/butting at the mid point. The assembly is two piece, the long pivot side is shouldered and spans almost the entire length, the opposite is a cup style spacer that spans from the shocks bushing to the linkage. The cups major ID slips over the other bushing, the cups minor ID is 6mm.

PK


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

mtnbiker4life said:


> I personally think creating a RWC Needle Kit for a 54mm span will only yield bad results.......it's just too wide for a 11mm pin with a 8mm ID with that phenolic sleeve.


I would not be a fan of the 8mm ID, but 6mm ID would offer 2.5mm of wall thickness.

Agreed, this may not be so good, the old GT LTS pivots bending come to mind.

PK


----------



## jazzjph (Jun 5, 2010)

MiLi said:


> i installed this new needle bearings and it works perfect. there is still some play but 80% less than on my old bearing  this play is quite hard to notice even if i lift the bike by the saddle. my hardtail have more play now . if this bearing work the same after some time it will be great and i will buy it again.


I got mine too, in my case the play almost all gone!!!

Thank you Chris


----------



## Radical_53 (Nov 22, 2006)

This is pretty weird. I just installed the new bearing, which supposedly has a tighter fit, and got just the opposite. The bearing feels extremely smooth but the slop and play is very evident too. Guess I'll have to either live with it (preferrably with the older bearing) or simply put a normal bushing back in place.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Radical_53 said:


> This is pretty weird. I just installed the new bearing, which supposedly has a tighter fit, and got just the opposite. The bearing feels extremely smooth but the slop and play is very evident too. Guess I'll have to either live with it (preferrably with the older bearing) or simply put a normal bushing back in place.


I think we better send you another one. Nobody else has reported a looser fit with the new bearings. Maybe you just got an oddball. Please send me a PM (or email) with your shipping info.


----------



## BikeBert (Mar 17, 2008)

I don't want to go thru all the posts...

Can somebody tell me if there is a set of roller kit available to fit *CC DB in Knolly Endorphin*? If so, what is the part number?
Thank you.


----------



## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

Chris, I also just intalled the tighter bearing you sent me...the play is less, but still there. I think I can live with it though.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

dwyooaj said:


> Chris, I also just intalled the tighter bearing you sent me...the play is less, but still there. I think I can live with it though.


The current bearing spec is the one we are going to keep. It we were to make it any tighter, we would have too many applications with binding. The closest thing we can do to make the kits somewhat "adjustable" is to provide a slightly oversized inner ring along with the current inner ring, which is what we are going to do as soon as we can implement it.


----------



## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> The closest thing we can do to make the kits somewhat "adjustable" is to provide a slightly oversized inner ring along with the current inner ring, which is what we are going to do as soon as we can implement it.


I'm first in line to try one when you make them


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

dwyooaj said:


> Chris, I also just intalled the tighter bearing you sent me...the play is less, but still there. I think I can live with it though.


Just to add to the knowledge base, what shock are you running? Different brand shocks have different tolerance eyelets which means different clearance when these roller bearings are pressed in.


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

Dougal said:


> Just to add to the knowledge base, what shock are you running? Different brand shocks have different tolerance eyelets which means different clearance when these roller bearings are pressed in.


Since most (all) mtn bike shock eyelets are designed around the DU/DX Bushing then the eyelet bore diameter should fall within 0.5934 - 0.5941 inches. I'm not sure knowing the shock manufacture is going to tell you much whereas knowing the measurement of that eyelet bore would. It's RWC responsibility to design their needle bearing to work within that .0007 inch tolerance band. I'm sure RWC did a lot of testing to figure out how to get the needle bearing to function within those dimensions.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mtnbiker4life said:


> Since most (all) mtn bike shock eyelets are designed around the DU/DX Bushing then the eyelet bore diameter should fall within 0.5934 - 0.5941 inches. I'm not sure knowing the shock manufacture is going to tell you much whereas knowing the measurement of that eyelet bore would. It's RWC responsibility to design their needle bearing to work within that .0007 inch tolerance band. I'm sure RWC did a lot of testing to figure out how to get the needle bearing to function within those dimensions.


Yes they should be, but most of the time they're not.
FOX appear to be most consistent and within the range you've given, stratos had the tightest eyelets I've found and marzocchi the loosest. Both way outside what they should be.


----------



## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

elka stage 5 on a banshee rune



Dougal said:


> Just to add to the knowledge base, what shock are you running? Different brand shocks have different tolerance eyelets which means different clearance when these roller bearings are pressed in.


----------



## Marmoto (Sep 10, 2007)

*Check if you have ALL the needles in the bearing*

Here is a short advice after a recent experience I've had with the needle bearings.

After servicing my RS Monarch RT3 fitted with the new tight fit needle bearings, once I mounted back the shock in the frame I realized that it had again some slop, more or less the same as with the old needle bearings :madman: . After an initial moment of frustration, I removed the shock from the frame to see what has happened. And the cause was very apparent: The lower needle bearing lost one of the needles (which I incredibly found on the floor :eekster: ). After putting it back in the bearing and re greasing everything was perfect with no play.   

*Always check if you have all the needles in the bearing. The bearing should not have any empty space between the needles.*


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Marmoto said:


> Here is a short advice after a recent experience I've had with the needle bearings.
> 
> After servicing my RS Monarch RT3 fitted with the new tight fit needle bearings, once I mounted back the shock in the frame I realized that it had again some slop, more or less the same as with the old needle bearings :madman: . After an initial moment of frustration, I removed the shock from the frame to see what has happened. And the cause was very apparent: The lower needle bearing lost one of the needles (which I incredibly found on the floor :eekster: ). After putting it back in the bearing and re greasing everything was perfect with no play.
> 
> *Always check if you have all the needles in the bearing. The bearing should not have any empty space between the needles.*


Thanks for mentioning this. It's something to keep in mind whenever the inner ring is removed, such as during shock servicing. A small piece of foam rubber can be compressed inside the rollers during service so this does not happen. Also, if you are sending your shock in for service, it makes it hard for the rebuilder if needle rollers fall out during shipping and scattered inside the box!


----------



## rzalewski6 (Sep 28, 2008)

Hey Chris, I need two shock bearing kits and some fork seals. What is the best way to order these? Tried contacting twice a couple months ago when there was some changes going on. Thanks


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

rzalewski6 said:


> Hey Chris, I need two shock bearing kits and some fork seals. What is the best way to order these? Tried contacting twice a couple months ago when there was some changes going on. Thanks


Not sure I understand the question. Do you need help selecting a product? Otherwise, just use the "Add to Cart" buttons and proceed to check out.


----------



## rzalewski6 (Sep 28, 2008)

Maybe you could verify the right shock bearings for me. One for the top pivot on a 2010 Giant Faith w/Vivid, and one for both ends on a 2010 Titus El Guapo w/RP23. Called and left a couple messages a while ago with no response, so I just wanted to make sure of some things before I ordered. Thanks


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

rzalewski6 said:


> Maybe you could verify the right shock bearings for me. One for the top pivot on a 2010 Giant Faith w/Vivid, and one for both ends on a 2010 Titus El Guapo w/RP23.


The El Guapo takes the NBKRWC2185 at each end, although the frame mount end is optional due to little rotation. I believe the 2010 Faith has a 30mm span, but it's not in the Fox database. That would be the NBKRWC30. If you have some calipers, you can just measure the span between the rocker arms where the shock mounts.


----------



## rzalewski6 (Sep 28, 2008)

Ok thanks. The Faith looks to be 31mm so I will order a couple shims kits too. You don't offer shock coil spring, thin, flat thrust bearings (previously Obtainium) or know somewhere that does?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

rzalewski6 said:


> Ok thanks. The Faith looks to be 31mm so I will order a couple shims kits too. You don't offer shock coil spring, thin, flat thrust bearings (previously Obtainium) or know somewhere that does?


We haven't had much demand for the coil thrust bearings in the past. If the source goes away and there is a demand, we could offer some in the future.


----------



## chronic64 (Jan 9, 2011)

is the NBKRWC3988 kit appropriate for the lower eyelet on a Fox DRCV shock from the 2011 Fuel EX line? Thanks in advance.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

chronic64 said:


> is the NBKRWC3988 kit appropriate for the lower eyelet on a Fox DRCV shock from the 2011 Fuel EX line? Thanks in advance.


Yes, that kit fits the full-floater mount.


----------



## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

Just installed a needle bearing kit into a RockShox Vivid Air R2C, and on my 2010 Giant Reign X. 
Installation was super easy with mtnbiker4life's bushing tools.
I used the normal inner race, not the oversized one (tried it first.) Fit perfect, super smooth, and no play at all.
One of the reducers on my DHX Air that was on there was pretty stiff, so this is a nice upgrade!


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I've been running one of these since October last year, there has always been a little play. Just this week the replacement bearings arrived and I had the chance to measure the play with a dial-gauge on the shock body.

The old bearing was showing 0.03-0.04mm which is right on the limit of what can be felt, the new bearing showing ~0.01mm. Right where it should be.:thumbsup:


----------



## <Steven> (Nov 14, 2007)

Just fitted a set on a DHX Air 5 on my Scott Ransom and there is absolutely no play at all... even after a week's worth of riding :thumbsup: 

The difference in ride quality is certainly noticeable, especially in slower technical situations.

Definitely a worthwhile upgrade


----------



## mazspeed (Oct 17, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> Just one or did you do both ends?


I forgot about this. I need both ends, all parts. Let me know what I owe. Thanks again Chris.


----------



## jiabin172 (Oct 24, 2009)

Which kits will fit 07 stumpjumper fsr (with afr shock, no bush, only reducer)?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mazspeed said:


> I forgot about this. I need both ends, all parts. Let me know what I owe. Thanks again Chris.


Sorry, you are going to need to email me with details. I can't really pick through the threads to refresh my memory. In fact, unless my memory fails me, I thought you had me ship the parts to a shop already...


----------



## 24v (Apr 5, 2009)

I have a 2009 Giant Reign with an Elka rear shock. Which kit should I buy?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

24v said:


> I have a 2009 Giant Reign with an Elka rear shock. Which kit should I buy?


NBKRWC2185 for top rocker mount. No conversion necessary (or available) for bottom mount.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

jiabin172 said:


> Which kits will fit 07 stumpjumper fsr (with afr shock, no bush, only reducer)?


I'm thinking the AFR shock eyelet bore matches, but the width of the shock body and shaft at the eyelets is narrower. Also, in the OE applications where no DU bushing is run and a full 15mm "axle" is used through the shock eyelet, you are not going to be able to convert to a needle bearing. This is in the rear swing link, right? Does that design rotate poorly?


----------



## mazspeed (Oct 17, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> Sorry, you are going to need to email me with details. I can't really pick through the threads to refresh my memory. In fact, unless my memory fails me, I thought you had me ship the parts to a shop already...


Thanks Chris.


----------



## MitchD (Jun 16, 2010)

Chris, on my GT sensor do I need to change both ends of the shock or only one?If so which one? It uses a fox float RP2


----------



## fixbikeguy (Aug 28, 2008)

I just installed the 22.2mm top and bottom on my Banshee Legend and there is play. I'm not super stoked as it took a while to get these and it isn't right. Chris is sending me different inner rings, but the problem was definatley noted on here before I even ordered them and it was apparent that the problem was fixed. We'll see how the new ones are.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

fixbikeguy said:


> I just installed the 22.2mm top and bottom on my Banshee Legend and there is play. I'm not super stoked as it took a while to get these and it isn't right. Chris is sending me different inner rings, but the problem was definatley noted on here before I even ordered them and it was apparent that the problem was fixed. We'll see how the new ones are.


If you are not super stoked about us sending new inner rings at our expense (Priority Mail to Canada), please let me know before I ship them. You are welcome to send everything back for a refund if you prefer.


----------



## fixbikeguy (Aug 28, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> If you are not super stoked about us sending new inner rings at our expense (Priority Mail to Canada), please let me know before I ship them. You are welcome to send everything back for a refund if you prefer.


Wow. All I was saying is that the problem with the play was noted before I even ordered these and it was supposed to be fixed and therefore I ordered them. I am happy that you are sending me new inner rings. I didn't mean to upset you at all, I was just dissapointed that the bearings have play when the issue was supposed to have been fixed.
Thanks for sending me out new inner rings.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

fixbikeguy said:


> Wow. All I was saying is that the problem with the play was noted before I even ordered these and it was supposed to be fixed and therefore I ordered them. I am happy that you are sending me new inner rings. I didn't mean to upset you at all, I was just dissapointed that the bearings have play when the issue was supposed to have been fixed.
> Thanks for sending me out new inner rings.


Sorry. Just struck me wrong that the overall tone of your post was negative. After walking you through verifying the problem on the phone and offering to send out new oversized inner rings that we just received, I would have expected a more positive response. The new bearings are a perfect fit in 80 percent of the applications. We have just improved the 21.85 and 22.20 kits by adding a level of "adjustability." The kits now shipping have two inner rings: a "+" tolerance inner ring and a "-" tolerance inner ring. The "+" tolerance inner rings are what we offered to send. This adds to the cost of the kits, but between the new bearings and two inner rings, all but the most badly machined shock eyelets will be covered. So basically, we are upgrading your kits at no charge and covering the shipping cost. There is no reason in the world you can't ride your bike with the existing setup. You will not feel any play under riding conditions and it will not only do no harm but will still kill the performance of a DU bushing/reducer setup.


----------



## fixbikeguy (Aug 28, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> Sorry. Just struck me wrong that the overall tone of your post was negative. After walking you through verifying the problem on the phone and offering to send out new oversized inner rings that we just received, I would have expected a more positive response. The new bearings are a perfect fit in 80 percent of the applications. We have just improved the 21.85 and 22.20 kits by adding a level of "adjustability." The kits now shipping have two inner rings: a "+" tolerance inner ring and a "-" tolerance inner ring. The "+" tolerance inner rings are what we offered to send. This adds to the cost of the kits, but between the new bearings and two inner rings, all but the most badly machined shock eyelets will be covered. So basically, we are upgrading your kits at no charge and covering the shipping cost. There is no reason in the world you can't ride your bike with the existing setup. You will not feel any play under riding conditions and it will not only do no harm but will still kill the performance of a DU bushing/reducer setup.


Thanks again for sending them quickly to me. I do appreciate it.


----------



## chronic64 (Jan 9, 2011)

I just installed the kit on my 2011 Fuel EX 8. The DRCV shock only has a lower shock eyelet. It was an increadibly easy and simple procedure. except for pushing out the old bushing, which took an inordinate amount of force - i had to use a pipe to get extra leverage on my vice, but maybe my vice is just crappy. The setup is rock solid, no play or anything at all with everything torqued to spec.

I'm very happy, nothing feels better than knowing my bike is better, stronger (faster even?).

EDIT:
some tips for those doing same as me
* its not necessary to remove the cranks, all the lower pivot bolts are accessible from the non drive side.
* I strongly recommend you loosen the main lower pivot bolt before removal or installation at it puts tension on the lower shock mount, all you need is a 20mm wrench and 10mm socket for this
* I found it much easier to reinstall the upper shock bolts by installing it at the bottom first and then resting the shock inside the rocker and gently pulling it onto the upper bolts and spacers instead of trying to push it


----------



## mazspeed (Oct 17, 2004)

Big thanks to Chris for sending me the new needle bearings for my Ibis HD shock. Great CS on his part and I cannot wait to get them in. Just wanted to say that I got them and thanks for sending the new ones.


----------



## Radical_53 (Nov 22, 2006)

I can't really express how much I appreciate the customer service Chris has shown so far.
Today I received a package with a new bearing, two different inner ring (plus and minus tolerance) and even two new seals. All this came here after I had already gotten a new bearing once and also a new inner ring some time ago. All this had been shipped to me with international air mail as I'm living abroad at the moment and it came at no extra cost.

The best thing though is that I finally have a needle bearing installed that doesn't show any form of play and is just ultra smooth. I can't comment how it will look in half a year but at least now I now how it should feel and was intended in the first place  I really couldn't be happier, thanks alot!


----------



## Smiff (May 1, 2008)

alright, finally got round to installing the needle bearing i bought last year into the top rocker of my '08 Trek top fuel (have done one service before with DU bushes)

immediate and obvious improvement in plushness. so much so that i might need more air.
may be partly because
1) i'm light and run low pressures so any friction is relatively more important.
2) the old fox top hat was pretty stiff to get out so it may have got worse than when new, without me really realising.

slight criticism of the tool - i don't think it's quite possible to get the needle centred in the eyelet, a very small recess or lip might allow it to go a fraction of a mm further in? mine isn't quite centred, does this matter? also the tool seemed unnecessarily long which made fitting it into my vice difficult (then realized i could remove the jaws. perhaps consider including a suitable long bolt and nuts to do the job? the DU bush tool i bought from someone in the UK included this)

not sure if there's any play yet.. hopefully not, but have the 8mm washers ready in case.

is the current 39.88mm kit actually smaller than the 40mm when i bought it in november?

think i might stick with DU on the lower mount because it'll get more rain and mud there, and little rotation.. anyone with a similar bike noticed much improvement changing both mounts vs just the top?

don't forget to relube the internals of your fox shock when doing this, mine was totally dry on the outer air sleeve seal! (this may also have contibuted to the improvement i got today!)


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Smiff said:


> alright, finally got round to installing the needle bearing i bought last year into the top rocker of my '08 Trek top fuel (have done one service before with DU bushes)
> 
> immediate and obvious improvement in plushness. so much so that i might need more air.
> may be partly because
> ...


Yes, NBKRWC3988 (new number) is the same as NBKRWC40 (old number). We are just getting more specific since some kits are very close in size to each other. If your lower mount is fixed (as opposed to Trek's "Free Floater" ) then you don't need a needle bearing kit at that end. It's beneficial to have both ends converted on the Full Floater models. The latest run of the needle bearing tools (green one) is shorter. However, the DU tool is still the same length due to the need to allow a place for the DU to drop into when it comes out. The tools have a center bore designed to work with the Enduro Hub Bearing Press or with a vise. For those that don't have either, a threaded rod or long bolt with nuts and washers will do the job. We don't include a threaded rod or other hardware because it would just add to the cost and increase the shipping weight when many won't need or use the extra hardware.


----------



## fixbikeguy (Aug 28, 2008)

I received the new inner rings yesterday and installed them today. All is good and the play is gone. Thanks again for sending them out so quickly Chris! Such a great improvement over DU bushings.


----------



## mazspeed (Oct 17, 2004)

I just had my new ones installed and there is also no play here either. I can feel a difference in these as well. I didn't think a bearing here would make that much of a difference, but I may have to up my pressure on the shock now that it's free flowing. Great fix Chris.


----------



## wi1trackrider (Jan 26, 2004)

On my Intense 5.5 I recently installed a 39.88mm kit with (2) shims on the lower shock mount/pivot. I've been on several rides now, and no play has shown up. I love the solid feel of my shock linkage. I was always fighting the annoying play in the bushings. Hopefully the RWC needle bearing kit has made this a thing of the past for me. I also picked up a 21.85mm kit for the upper shock mount, but have not installed it yet, as this mount has not produced any play in the standard bushings I have in it still. 5 flaming chili's for RWC right now!


----------



## transition-rich (Feb 13, 2008)

anyone got any experience with the ironhorse kits regarding play?
thanks


----------



## KevinB (Oct 5, 2004)

transition-rich said:



> anyone got any experience with the ironhorse kits regarding play?
> thanks


I installed the needle bearing kit on both ends of the shock on my MkIII. There is a tiny bit of play, but I don't notice it when I'm on the bike. I haven't tried the tighter tolerance stuff yet...


----------



## transition-rich (Feb 13, 2008)

ah ok thanks for the quick response! I ordered one last week so I'm guessing it will be the updated tighter bearings so I'll see how that goes on my sunday. Would be nice if there's no play but it seems like it can be a bit of pot luck as to if you get play or not


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

transition-rich said:


> ah ok thanks for the quick response! I ordered one last week so I'm guessing it will be the updated tighter bearings so I'll see how that goes on my sunday. Would be nice if there's no play but it seems like it can be a bit of pot luck as to if you get play or not


All kits have newer, tighter tolerance needle bearings. Only the 21.85 and 22.20 kits come with 2 inner ring sizes for extra "adjustability." Soon all kits will come with 2 inner rings.


----------



## Nickbm3 (Nov 10, 2010)

Hi Chris - I have a niner rip9 frame (2010) with fox RP23, is their a bearing kit for the lower shock mount? I have read earlier in the thread that its not necessary to replace the bushing at the end of the shock that doesnt move very much, but Id like to do it anyway if its possible. In your professional opinion, should i even worry about the bottom mount?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Nickbm3 said:


> Hi Chris - I have a niner rip9 frame (2010) with fox RP23, is their a bearing kit for the lower shock mount? I have read earlier in the thread that its not necessary to replace the bushing at the end of the shock that doesnt move very much, but Id like to do it anyway if its possible. In your professional opinion, should i even worry about the bottom mount?


On that frame, changing the bottom DU/reducer system to needle bearing will not yield performance results since no rotation takes place. The same is true with my 5-spot, but I changed them both because I wanted the red anodized spacers at each end. As long as you realize it's mostly a cosmetic thing when no rotation is taking place, it certainly won't hurt anything to change the frame-mounted end. If you decide to do this, we have had reports that the fixed frame mounts on the RIP 9 are a bit closer together than the Fox database indicates and the inner ring may need to be ground down slightly to fit between the tabs.


----------



## Nickbm3 (Nov 10, 2010)

Cool, Thanks Chris! What kit would i use for the bottom then, or is it the same as the top?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Nickbm3 said:


> Cool, Thanks Chris! What kit would i use for the bottom then, or is it the same as the top?


Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you... Yeah, same as the top, with the stipulations about the tight fit, as previously mentioned.


----------



## Santa Clauz (May 20, 2005)

Quick question.
I just got the bearing kit+bearing press tool, but not the bushing removal tool. I got my bushings out easily on my RIP9 but the inner metal cup or whatever its considered I cannot figure out a way to remove it. I would rather not have to order the removal tool but i am stumped on how to go about getting that sucker out.
Anyone happen to not order the tool and if not how did you go about removing the inner metal piece?


----------



## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

You'll have to rig up a press, it's easy though. First figure out what size socket will push out the sleeve, line it up on the sleeve. Put a long bolt through the socket and shock eye sandwich, on the other side put a big socket that the sleeve can slide into, finish the sandwich with a washer and nut, when the nut/bolt are tightened the little socket pushes out the sleeve.


----------



## Santa Clauz (May 20, 2005)

Awesome, thank you for the quick response. I should be able to rig that up easily!


----------



## kmacon (Nov 15, 2006)

You can also remove the inner sleeve by using a bench vise to press with. Use a socket that will move the sleeve out on one side (make sure it does not bind in the eye though) and a larger socket to press into on the other side of the eye. Then just tighten the vise to press the sleeve out. The hardest part is getting everything lined up to start with.


----------



## darrinw2001 (Dec 14, 2007)

I replaced the DU Bushing and the spacers in my 2009 Giant Trance X3 about 6 months ago and it is now it is worn and clunking again... just ordered the Needle Bearing kit and will install when it get here next week.. hope this solves my problem... Thanks for making this product!


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

tacubaya said:


> Anyone has found some play between the supplied steel axle and the needle bearings?
> 
> A friend of mine and me feel some play (like a worn DU bushing knock) when we pick up the bike from the saddle slightly.
> 
> Chris has told me it is normal, but I just want to know from others what their experience has been.





tacubaya said:


> There is supposed to be some play between the steel axle and needles, but what if the eyelet dimensions are increasing/decreasing this amount of play?
> 
> How should we know when the eyelet dimensions are correct and the play we are getting is the "right one", and when is the eyelet a bit too large and we are getting some more play than what is meant for?
> 
> That's my hypothesis. It seems eyelet tolerances are a big factor on the needle bearing performance and there is no reference to compare the play in the interface to.


Seems I opened a Pandora Box more than a year ago Chris!! Good thing you're working things out and providing an amazing customer service.

Just wanted to let you know that after a year of riding I checked the needle bearings and no dirt went past my oversize washers and the seals. Needles were still lubed and contaminant free. I'm sticking with the original needle bearings that have some play (I don't care anymore) as they work quite well and I want to experiment and see how long these last (with inspections every year) compared to regular DU bushings.

:thumbsup:


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

transition-rich said:


> anyone got any experience with the ironhorse kits regarding play?
> thanks


I installed one on the upper mount of an `07 MKIII about 6 weeks ago (end of April). It had a bit of play, which was disappointing, since getting rid of the play was the whole reason I got it to start with.

In the end it did not really matter, because as soon as I installed the kit, I found a crack in my frame:madman:


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Seems I opened a Pandora Box more than a year ago Chris!! Good thing you're working things out and providing an amazing customer service.
> 
> Just wanted to let you know that after a year of riding I checked the needle bearings and no dirt went past my oversize washers and the seals. Needles were still lubed and contaminant free. I'm sticking with the original needle bearings that have some play (I don't care anymore) as they work quite well and I want to experiment and see how long these last (with inspections every year) compared to regular DU bushings.
> 
> :thumbsup:


Great! Thanks for the report.


----------



## bushjockey (Sep 24, 2010)

I just got my lower bearing installed on my Pivot Mach4 - was a snap using the special tools and took maybe 10 minutes. I've got no play whatsoever in my rear suspension. Rear shock took an extra 10psi and 1 click of rebound damping due to the lack of drag in the bearing compared to the crappy aluminum bushing. I can certainly feel that the bump compliance is much better than stock, and the bike feels a little more glued to the trail now as well. Couldn't be more satisfied with my investment - a good improvement for very little money!


----------



## darrinw2001 (Dec 14, 2007)

darrinw2001 said:


> I replaced the DU Bushing and the spacers in my 2009 Giant Trance X3 about 6 months ago and it is now it is worn and clunking again... just ordered the Needle Bearing kit and will install when it get here next week.. hope this solves my problem... Thanks for making this product!


Installed the needle bearing kit today. was easy using sockets and a vice to remove the bushing and the vice to install the new kit.. road it around the hood and noticed a good improvement and no more clunking! I am actually selling the bike i installed it on but this should increase it's re-sale value...


----------



## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Would I be crazy to drill out my Manitou eyelets to 15mm to accept the needle bearing kit?


----------



## mtnbiker4life (Sep 19, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> Would I be crazy to drill out my Manitou eyelets to 15mm to accept the needle bearing kit?


I don't think their is enough material to safely do this. One more thing, you would be using a drill to achieve this.....FYI the eyelet bore needs to fall between 0.5934 - 0.5941 inches.


----------



## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

mtnbiker4life said:


> I don't think their is enough material to safely do this. One more thing, you would be using a drill to achieve this.....FYI the eyelet bore needs to fall between 0.5934 - 0.5941 inches.


I'd probably be crazy to try and meet that tolerance with my hand drill. A machine shop could probably do it though. It seems the Fox size stuff is so much easier to find, but not sure I want to go through the trouble, even if there is enough material. 
Check your PMs.


----------



## Tema (Mar 5, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> The Manitou shocks have a considerably smaller shock eye bore. It would require a new size of needle bearing. This is something we will eventually make available.


I'd buy a kit for my Manitou Evolver. Will such product be available some day?


----------



## donngo (May 8, 2007)

adamantane said:


> looking for cannondale prophet kit...earlier this year you mentioned "37.59mm x 8 = NBKRWC35 plus two shim kits for 8mm bolt (follow the link from the specific kit)"


Is this the same spec for a 2007 prophet with a 2010 FOX RC4? thanks


----------



## adamm3 (Mar 26, 2007)

I have a 2010 Transition Covert with Fox RP2. On your site you list to buy the 21.85 kit. On Transition's site they list the hardware as 22.2. Which one is right?

thanks

adam


----------



## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Is there a kit for the Liteville 301 which runs a DT Swiss SSD 212L shock?


----------



## ipattis (Aug 24, 2009)

Any comments on which kit for the new PUSH link on the Nomad2? Haven't looked to far into this and have to run out the door. Assuming Same as Nomad2 kit. Anyone have any experience with Nomad2 install?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

ipattis said:


> Any comments on which kit for the new PUSH link on the Nomad2? Haven't looked to far into this and have to run out the door. Assuming Same as Nomad2 kit. Anyone have any experience with Nomad2 install?


That's a good assumption but I will make sure.


----------



## bohica98g (Apr 6, 2010)

Chris,

Quick question. I have a 2011 Ellsworth Epiphany SST.2 as well as a 2009 Specialized FSR XC. (The FSR XC still has the X Fusion rear shock, though I'm considering replacing with a Push Monarch RT3.)

Do you guys have a kit that will work any of these bikes/setups?

Thanks


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

bohica98g said:


> Chris,
> 
> Quick question. I have a 2011 Ellsworth Epiphany SST.2 as well as a 2009 Specialized FSR XC. (The FSR XC still has the X Fusion rear shock, though I'm considering replacing with a Push Monarch RT3.)
> 
> ...


Upper mount (rocker arms) span of the Epiphany is 41.15mm. We will have a kit that exact size in about 2-3 weeks. In the meantime, you could use kit number NBKRWC3988 plus one shim kit for 6mm bolt. The remaining 0.27mm of space would not be significant given the length of the rocker arms. The lower mount is 21.85mm but we would consider that optional since little rotation takes place there.

The Fox data on the 2009 FSRxc is a bit sketchy. It's 15.75mm or 21.85mm at the rocker arms. I'm afraid you will have to verify that one. We have both kits. Just take out the top bolt, swing the shock out and measure either face-to-face across the reducers or measure the space between the rocker arms.


----------



## Scarier (May 13, 2011)

Got a KHS DH200 Frame, based on the Reducer chart from fox, it uses 

body hardware mount kit #803-03-086 
shaft hardware mount kit #803-03-044

A few google showed that the 086 kit is 8x59mm while the 044 kit is a fairly standard 8x31.75mm. 

Which kit do you have that fit these sizes? I saw your list and nothing seems to match these numbers.

Further probing on the web indicates that there's no aftermarket mount hardware kit that has the size 8x59mm. I wonder if the google results were legit, or maybe KHS uses either 8x58/60mm.


----------



## Tema (Mar 5, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> The Manitou shocks have a considerably smaller shock eye bore. It would require a new size of needle bearing. This is something we will eventually make available.
> 
> 
> Tema said:
> ...


Chris, any news about Manitou kits?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Scarier said:


> Got a KHS DH200 Frame, based on the Reducer chart from fox, it uses
> 
> body hardware mount kit #803-03-086
> shaft hardware mount kit #803-03-044
> ...


Yeah, the more important end is 59.94mm. That's quite a span and one we don't have covered yet.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Tema said:


> Chris, any news about Manitou kits?


We have not done anything on this yet. We've got enough variations of the Fox standard to keep us busy for quite some time.


----------



## Scarier (May 13, 2011)

Chris2fur said:


> Yeah, the more important end is 59.94mm. That's quite a span and one we don't have covered yet.


so that 086 kit is actually 8x59.94? where did u find this info, im very interested in verifying it.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Scarier said:


> so that 086 kit is actually 8x59.94? where did u find this info, im very interested in verifying it.


It's off a Fox price sheet. The Fox shock reducer database has many incorrect part numbers, though, so if you want to be sure, just put some calipers across the reducers.


----------



## Scarier (May 13, 2011)

Ah thnx, maybe i should also wait for the frame to arrive before ordering. that way i can measure it out first.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

ipattis said:


> Any comments on which kit for the new PUSH link on the Nomad2? Haven't looked to far into this and have to run out the door. Assuming Same as Nomad2 kit. Anyone have any experience with Nomad2 install?


Just got verification from PUSH that 21.85mm is the span. Therefore the NBKRWC2185 is a match.


----------



## ipattis (Aug 24, 2009)

Awesome. Thanks for looking into it. I recently ordered an NBKRWC2185 set and installed them on the Push link adapter and upper RC4 bushings. They both function flawlessly! Dig it ;-)


----------



## PissedOffCil (Oct 18, 2007)

Anybody know the proper parts to use for a 2006 Norco Six. They have the 2008 listed but they redesigned the frame in 2007 I believe and I'm not sure if they changed the dimensions of the shock mounts....

Alternatively, what must I measure to know what I need?


----------



## PissedOffCil (Oct 18, 2007)

I measured the outside of the shock mounting hardware and got 23.88 & 55.88

I guess there's no fit for me...


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

PissedOffCil said:


> I measured the outside of the shock mounting hardware and got 23.88 & 55.88
> 
> I guess there's no fit for me...


Yeah, the front would not do much good and the rear span is quite a bit wider than our longest kit. We'll eventually get there but the longest span that is currently in production (due in about another week) is 43.74mm. In fact, for those waiting here are next sizes in the pipeline (1-2 weeks out):

19.05mm
33.83mm
41.15mm
43.74mm

These sizes will cover a lot of different bikes including several from Knolly, Banshee, Intense, Ellsworth, GT, Lapierre, Cannondale, Tomac, Norco, Santa Cruz, Canon, Chumba, Giant, Versus and others.


----------



## PissedOffCil (Oct 18, 2007)

Watching the shock through it's stroke, there isn't much rotation on the bushings anyways so I doubt I'd see much of a benefit. I'll just change the bushings for the time being.


----------



## rox (Aug 30, 2008)

Ok I read the entire thread and looked at the compatibility thread but I didnt see any mention of the santa cruz blur LT carbon. I measured the sleeve mount at .835 and the body mount at .875 but it was hard to get a good reading without removing the shock. any help on which set and what shims (if any) to order? thanks


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

rox said:


> Ok I read the entire thread and looked at the compatibility thread but I didnt see any mention of the santa cruz blur LT carbon. I measured the sleeve mount at .835 and the body mount at .875 but it was hard to get a good reading without removing the shock. any help on which set and what shims (if any) to order? thanks


All the Blur LT2 frames, including the carbon, use NBKRWC2185 at the swing link and require no shims. Hope that helps!


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Chris2fur

What's the current go with these bearing kits? I got a kit some time ago and experienced play almost immediately. You suggested at the time that I get some replacement inner sleeves which I bought when I ordered some other stuff. I then didn't use my Fox rear shock and had switched to a Magura rear shock that uses spherical bearings. I've just switched back to a RP23 on my Anthem X (with the enduro needle bearing kit on the top shock eye) whilst I service my Magura rear shock and even with the new inner sleeves the bearing is still sloppy.

Are there now any solutions to the slop?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

TigWorld said:


> Chris2fur
> 
> What's the current go with these bearing kits? I got a kit some time ago and experienced play almost immediately. You suggested at the time that I get some replacement inner sleeves which I bought when I ordered some other stuff. I then didn't use my Fox rear shock and had switched to a Magura rear shock that uses spherical bearings. I've just switched back to a RP23 on my Anthem X (with the enduro needle bearing kit on the top shock eye) whilst I service my Magura rear shock and even with the new inner sleeves the bearing is still sloppy.
> 
> Are there now any solutions to the slop?


We don't have any issues with the current kits, but I'm not going to ask you to buy a new one. Nor am I going to send a new only to hear that "there is still slop." The solution in your case is to send me your shock and let me install the bearing and inner ring and ship it back to you. In a case such as yours, I can see and fix in five minutes what can take weeks to sort out through posting back and forth and shipping parts.


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Chris2fur said:


> ...The solution in your case is to send me your shock and let me install the bearing and inner ring and ship it back to you...


That's a great offer, but I'm in Australia, postage + insurance costs on shipping my new RP23 will be more than the cost of a new kit.

If it helps for diagnosis, I first had the kit installed in a RP3 and its now in a brand new 2011 RP23. The Anthem X pivot bolt also does not bottom on its own threads, so its clamping the inner black (plastic?) sleeve properly.

The kit itself has performed really well, makes a noticeable difference on the Anthem X and there seems to be almost no wear on the bearings. The end bearing seals are great and have kept the inner grease clean and moisture free.


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I ordered two more sets for a friend.

He installed it on a DHX Air 2009. Using - tolerance inner ring resulted in play. With the + tolerance inner ring he told me it feels great (no binding and no play).

Good job Chris!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

TigWorld said:


> That's a great offer, but I'm in Australia, postage + insurance costs on shipping my new RP23 will be more than the cost of a new kit.
> 
> If it helps for diagnosis, I first had the kit installed in a RP3 and its now in a brand new 2011 RP23. The Anthem X pivot bolt also does not bottom on its own threads, so its clamping the inner black (plastic?) sleeve properly.
> 
> The kit itself has performed really well, makes a noticeable difference on the Anthem X and there seems to be almost no wear on the bearings. The end bearing seals are great and have kept the inner grease clean and moisture free.


Darn! Yes, you are a bit out of the way for shipping the shock back and forth. If you already have the "+" inner ring and the rocker arms are clamping it securely, then all that's left is another needle bearing assembly. Email me your shipping address or your last order number...


----------



## Smith (Mar 6, 2006)

Just a little note on the 6 mm reducers that came with my 21.85 mm kits, the new aluminium ones as opposed to the former plastic ones. My 6 mm bolts didn't go through those all the way in, only the threaded part of the bolts. I tried several bolts with the same (negative) results, while all of those bolts went all the way into the plastic reducers. I tried to measure the ID of the new alu reducers with the calipers and got 5.9 mm.

In the end I had to manually drill the reducers with a 6 mm drill bit and now everything fits fine.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Smith said:


> Just a little note on the 6 mm reducers that came with my 21.85 mm kits, the new aluminium ones as opposed to the former plastic ones. My 6 mm bolts didn't go through those all the way in, only the threaded part of the bolts. I tried several bolts with the same (negative) results, while all of those bolts went all the way into the plastic reducers. I tried to measure the ID of the new alu reducers with the calipers and got 5.9 mm.
> 
> In the end I had to manually drill the reducers with a 6 mm drill bit and now everything fits fine.


We need to add a note about that in our instructions. Not all linkages will "capture" the inner ring. Therefore, in 6mm applications, the 8 x 6 aluminum reducer sleeves need to be a precision fit. The sleeves are machined while the bolts are extruded. To make the sleeves fit all of the bolts, we would have had slop on many applications. As you said, the threads fit into the sleeves just fine (because they are machined). It is the section just beyond the threads where a lot of the bolts "bulge" slightly. Ideally, the bolt shaft should be filed at this point rather than modifying the sleeve. ...BTW, we went to aluminum bolt reducer sleeves because in applications where the inner ring is not "captured," the sleeve becomes load bearing and the carbon fiber ones wear down.


----------



## Smith (Mar 6, 2006)

Chris2fur said:


> We need to add a note about that in our instructions. Not all linkages will "capture" the inner ring. Therefore, in 6mm applications, the 8 x 6 aluminum reducer sleeves need to be a precision fit. The sleeves are machined while the bolts are extruded. To make the sleeves fit all of the bolts, we would have had slop on many applications. As you said, the threads fit into the sleeves just fine (because they are machined). It is the section just beyond the threads where a lot of the bolts "bulge" slightly. Ideally, the bolt shaft should be filed at this point rather than modifying the sleeve. ...BTW, we went to aluminum bolt reducer sleeves because in applications where the inner ring is not "captured," the sleeve becomes load bearing and the carbon fiber ones wear down.


I see your point Chris. I just supposed the bolts were fine and the problem was with the sleeves. Besides, filing the bolts seemed like more chore (steel vs. aluminium and having to pay attention to filing them evenly vs. just using the drill bit) and I was leery of reducing their strength.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Smith said:


> I see your point Chris. I just supposed the bolts were fine and the problem was with the sleeves. Besides, filing the bolts seemed like more chore (steel vs. aluminium and having to pay attention to filing them evenly vs. just using the drill bit) and I was leery of reducing their strength.


Totally understandable. The amount of material that needs to be removed is surprisingly little when you actually do it.


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Chris2fur said:


> Darn! Yes, you are a bit out of the way for shipping the shock back and forth. If you already have the "+" inner ring and the rocker arms are clamping it securely, then all that's left is another needle bearing assembly. Email me your shipping address or your last order number...


I don't think I've got the "+" inner ring so perhaps that's the easy fix. All I got was some replacement inner carbon sleeves. At the time I don't think there was a "+" inner ring available as an option. I'll shoot you a PM with my details.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

TigWorld said:


> I don't think I've got the "+" inner ring so perhaps that's the easy fix. All I got was some replacement inner carbon sleeves. At the time I don't think there was a "+" inner ring available as an option. I'll shoot you a PM with my details.


OK, so you never did get the "+" inner ring. That makes sense. Got your PM and we'll get on that.

To clarify for others:

Inner ring: The hardened steel "axle" that the needle roller elements "ride" on.
Reducer sleeve: Goes inside the inner ring to step down from 8mm to 6mm bolt.


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Chris2fur said:


> OK, so you never did get the "+" inner ring. That makes sense. Got your PM and we'll get on that.
> 
> To clarify for others:
> 
> ...


Great. Top service.


----------



## extremecarver (Sep 28, 2009)

Just installed the bearing kit on my Ironhorse 6 Point (though with 180/180m travel due to 70x222 damper) and everything went smooth.

I exchanged all bearings on my frame too (most of them were pretty shot and rusty water came out when I heated them up with a heat gun in order to remove them) and actually had to increase rebound on my damper by quite a fair bit, as the suspension got much more active. I do think most of it is due to the shot bearings, but I do think that the needle bearing kit is an excellent product, and the cost will easily come in, as I don't have to change the mount kit every 6 month due to slop. (actually my bearings were shot so bad, that there had been play not only on the damper bushings, but on other bearings too).

Installation of the needle bearing kit (20minutes) was much easier than exchanging the bearings which took several hours and lotta tools.

I do hope the needle bearings last out the frame (think about using the frame for bout 2-3 more years) and 2-3 bearing kits.


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Installed the "+" sized inner sleeve and all play issues are gone. Turns a good product into a great one. :thumbsup:

Thanks again Chris.

Also, the seals on either side of the bearings have done a superb job of keeping the water and dirt out. I give the entire system a big thumbs up.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

TigWorld said:


> Installed the "+" sized inner sleeve and all play issues are gone. Turns a good product into a great one. :thumbsup:
> 
> Thanks again Chris.
> 
> Also, the seals on either side of the bearings have done a superb job of keeping the water and dirt out. I give the entire system a big thumbs up.


Great! Thanks for the report.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

*New Size Available*

We now have the NBKRWC4115 kit available. We are working on updating the compatibility chart. This will cover many of the Ellsworth and Intense frames.


----------



## adamantane (Jan 27, 2005)

i'm thinking about this upgrade for my cannondale prophet, at least for the lower mount which is 37.59 mm..is there a kit out for this?


----------



## Fuzz541 (Jul 27, 2006)

One more for you.

I recently picked up a 2000.5 Kona Stinky 5 with a Fox Vanilla. The DU's are shot to hell and the Fox reducers are worse. I may or may not replace the shock itself, but the old warhorse seems to be working fine.

I have some cheap Napa digital calipers and made the following measurements:

Reducers as they sit in the shock:
- top: 44.8mm (these are banged up but snug in the DU)
- bottom: 21.8mm (these are SUPER loose and worn)

Space in the frame:
- top/rocker: 43.8 (have to squeeze the shock in there a bit to mount it, but it's not hard)
- bottom: 22.2mm average between both mounting points

So it's pretty obvious I need a 22.2x6 kit for the bottom, though it's likely this is superfluous due to the lack of rotation. I may just refresh the stock bits.

As for the top, what are your thoughts? 43.8 - 41.15 = 2.65. I don't want a forest of shims. One thick one on each side is about my "tolerance" as it were. I'm tempted to take the calipers to the hardware store and hand-select the thickest, most consistent stainless washers or machine bushings in 8mm ID that I can find.

Also, while I'm out shopping for washers, do the link or frame "plates" press against both the inner ring and the anodized seal? Or does the seal assembly "slide" inward just a bit so the clamping force rests on the inner ring?

I ask because if possible I'd like something with a relatively wide surface to contact the linkage plates that maybe tapers to a chamfered outer diameter to meet the lateral surface of the inner ring. I'm not an engineer, so I don't know if I'm using the correct terms.

Sort of like this, but flatter, with a hole through it:
https://www.deckcenter.com/assets/item/large/Stainless_Caps_-_Chamfer_Style.jpg

Thanks!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Fuzz541 said:


> One more for you.
> 
> I recently picked up a 2000.5 Kona Stinky 5 with a Fox Vanilla. The DU's are shot to hell and the Fox reducers are worse. I may or may not replace the shock itself, but the old warhorse seems to be working fine.
> 
> ...


Well, if you can wait just a few more days, we will be releasing NBKRWC4374. This has a 43.74mm span, which sounds perfect without shims of any kind, based on your measurements.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

adamantane said:


> i'm thinking about this upgrade for my cannondale prophet, at least for the lower mount which is 37.59 mm..is there a kit out for this?


Yes: NBKRWC3556 + 2 pcs 8x15 shims kits (use the "GET SHIMS FOR THIS KIT" link next to the NBKRWC3556 "Add to Cart" button).


----------



## Fuzz541 (Jul 27, 2006)

I love you, man.


----------



## Fuzz541 (Jul 27, 2006)

Based on the older Kona design, do you think I need a lower set or is it fairly static?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Fuzz541 said:


> Based on the older Kona design, do you think I need a lower set or is it fairly static?


Normally, I would say it's not necessary at that end of the shock. However, I'm curious why the existing DU/reducer setup is so worn. Be sure the bolt/pin is has the proper thread length to tightly capture the reducers between the mounting ears. Maybe that end of the shock was moving around inside the mounts.


----------



## Fuzz541 (Jul 27, 2006)

Yeah, I was curious too. I think it was years of neglect...and some brilliant lubrication, ie grit suspension, ie de facto honing compound left in the gap. 

As far as I can tell, the outer strip of the DU and the eyelet are intact. I'll inspect it more carefully before I go through the cost/time of upgrading this ancient shock. If it's wallered out, I'll get a newer shock and your 43.74 kit, with a standard set for the bottom.

I'll also be ordering fork seal kits for a Drake and a Tora, so I'll have more questions at that point. 

Thanks again. Ridiculous response time, and from what other say, customer service. :thumbsup:


----------



## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Hi Guys

What are the needle bearings in the kits so I can order spares?

(I'd like to press bearings into two shocks so I can swap them easily)


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

essenmeinstuff said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> What are the needle bearings in the kits so I can order spares?
> 
> (I'd like to press bearings into two shocks so I can swap them easily)


Please email me here: [email protected]


----------



## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

Anyone figured out what is required for the 2010 Specialized Enduro with RP23 ?


----------



## mehukatti (Sep 21, 2005)

I'm very impressed with the Needle Bearing Kit. I have a V10 Carbon and Nomad Carbon and both had slight creaking problems originating from the rear shock mount that has a lot of rotation. With the RWC kit all the problems are gone and additionally on the NomadC, I noticed that rear end of the bike is noticeably more sensitive and plusher now!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

griffter18 said:


> Anyone figured out what is required for the 2010 Specialized Enduro with RP23 ?


I think the 2010 Enduro uses a shock clevis and a 15mm thru-bolt, so there is no rotation inside the rear shock eyelet. This would not be an application for the needle bearing unless there is rotation at the frame mount end of the shock.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

*Another Size*

We have another kit available: NBKRWC4374 (for shock spans of 43.74mm).


----------



## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> I think the 2010 Enduro uses a shock clevis and a 15mm thru-bolt, so there is no rotation inside the rear shock eyelet. This would not be an application for the needle bearing unless there is rotation at the frame mount end of the shock.


Hmmm interesting as LBS was keen on selling me needle bearings as a worthy upgrade.
Guess I'll have sto strip the shock off the bike unless anyone else can provide input/experience.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

griffter18 said:


> Hmmm interesting as LBS was keen on selling me needle bearings as a worthy upgrade.
> Guess I'll have sto strip the shock off the bike unless anyone else can provide input/experience.


See if this parts blow-up matches your frame layout. If so, part 2.g is a 15mm axle that goes through the shock eyelet:


----------



## Fuzz541 (Jul 27, 2006)

griffter18 said:


> Hmmm interesting as LBS was keen on selling me needle bearings as a worthy upgrade.
> Guess I'll have sto strip the shock off the bike unless anyone else can provide input/experience.


Based on the image Chris posted, I think it's fair to say the only place a bearing kit would work is at the front end of the shock. If the clevis-shock bolt was replaced with a bearing kit (if you could find one), it would turn the shock-driving mechanism into a wet noodle of links. It would lose its rigid triangulation and could no longer drive the shock.

Maybe they meant just the upper shock pivot, or maybe the meant somewhere in the link pivot mechanism on the seatpost..?


----------



## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

Chris thanks for the Frame image. Thats defo the layout and I can see that 2g is a pin that goes straight into the shock eyelet so there is no bearing.
Ive also just dumped all the air out of the can to see what rotation there is around pins 2g and 2h and I cant feel any at all, All the movement appears to take place in the Shock Clevis & Frame assembly points indicated on the drawing.
On the basis that there is minimal rotation Im guessing a needle bearing wouldnt provide any benefits.
I think I will still strip the shock off the frame to have a closer look and see if there is any wear indication on the eyes.
If there isnt then as Fuzz states the only other bearings are in the Shock Clevis & Frame assembly.
The LBS was definately refering to shock eyelet bearings as they said it would also be a good upgrade on my 09 stumpy elite. I can see on that model it would work but not on the Enduro.
Thanks for the help and for saving me some cash. LBS will now be avoided on the grounds trying to get sales through duff info. Saying that I think I will pay them a personal visit to tell them.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

griffter18 said:


> On the basis that there is minimal rotation Im guessing a needle bearing wouldnt
> Thanks for the help and for saving me some cash. LBS will now be avoided on the grounds trying to get sales through duff info. Saying that I think I will pay them a personal visit to tell them.


Well, there are a lot of different frame configuration out there and, in all fairness, it's hard to keep track of them all. I think they would have soon realized the upgrade would not work on the Enduro and would not have charged you. I'd mention the clevis to them and see their reaction before being too hard on them. Anyway, the Stumpy's rocker arm/shock connection will greatly benefit from the kit.


----------



## griffter18 (Jul 3, 2009)

Under normal circumstances were the frame isnt seen I'd totally agree, but when they physically had hold of the frame in thier hand when the recommendation was made its not on.
I must admit Ive also had doubts about them previoulsy following a full service.
Lots of nice red grease showing but then bits sticking within a week. Hmm did they strip it ir just push some new grease on to give the impression it had been stripped.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

griffter18 said:


> Under normal circumstances were the frame isnt seen I'd totally agree, but when they physically had hold of the frame in thier hand when the recommendation was made its not on.
> I must admit Ive also had doubts about them previoulsy following a full service.
> Lots of nice red grease showing but then bits sticking within a week. Hmm did they strip it ir just push some new grease on to give the impression it had been stripped.


Yeah, trust is important so if you're not getting a good vibe with them I hope you have a good alternative. Or, maybe time to buy some tools...


----------



## devaHT (Aug 23, 2007)

I just installed NBKRWC3988 kit on my 2010 Trek Remedy, even though that frame isn't listed on the website's chart, it fits perfectly.
But after installation I found it has noticeable play in the lower mount. Took the lower amount apart and added a noticeable amount of grease on the bearing, sleeves and the stock bolt. It has considerably less play now, but it's noticeable. I'm worried is this normal, as I see others have a perfect fit ....


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

devaHT said:


> I just installed NBKRWC3988 kit on my 2010 Trek Remedy, even though that frame isn't listed on the website's chart, it fits perfectly.
> But after installation I found it has noticeable play in the lower mount. Took the lower amount apart and added a noticeable amount of grease on the bearing, sleeves and the stock bolt. It has considerably less play now, but it's noticeable. I'm worried is this normal, as I see others have a perfect fit ....


Let's see if I can help. Where and when did you get the kit, and did it contain 2 inner rings marked with "+" and "-" tolerances?


----------



## devaHT (Aug 23, 2007)

Bought it from your site, got it yesterday (I'm in Europe, so it took a bit longer to arrive). Yes, have both the + and - rings, didn't try with - as + did fit ....


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

devaHT said:


> Bought it from your site, got it yesterday (I'm in Europe, so it took a bit longer to arrive). Yes, have both the + and - rings, didn't try with - as + did fit ....


Sounds like the needle bearing is off. Please email me your order info and we'll send out another bearing. You can continue to ride the current setup.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

devaHT said:


> Wow ... didn't expect this .... thanks a lot!
> 
> Email sent.


We won't leave you hanging.


----------



## devaHT (Aug 23, 2007)

Wow ... didn't expect this .... thanks a lot!

Email sent.


----------



## hameedx (Oct 1, 2011)

Anyone know what I need for a 2004 Kona Stinky with a Fox RP2?


----------



## big Kat (Feb 19, 2004)

Chris,

Is there a kit for a Cannondale Rize 140 frame with a Manitou Evolver ISX shock?

I looked through the guide and could find that shock referenced anywhere?


----------



## ddavis (Jan 16, 2004)

6k miles later my bearings are still going strong on my Turner Flux


----------



## devaHT (Aug 23, 2007)

Chris2fur said:


> Sounds like the needle bearing is off. Please email me your order info and we'll send out another bearing. You can continue to ride the current setup.


I found what was causing the play, the space between the mounts is 41,5mm and the kit is 39,88 so on one side of the kit seal wasn't in contact with the shock eyelet.

One 1mm washer took care of it, no more play ... perfect fit!!










I'm gonna send you back the new bearing that you shipped. Sorry I haven't found that out before you shipped it ....


----------



## keefloe (Dec 23, 2011)

I recently purchased a needle bearing kit for my Nomad MK2. After installation I noticed a HUGE difference in the way my rear suspension felt, and definitely for the better. These really do make a difference in ride quality and gives the rear a "lively" feeling. I can't vouch for other frames, but I would recommend anyone with a Nomad to get one of these (no need to get a pair, just one for the lower shock eye).

As other people have said, run a higher PSI due to the greater sag rate the needle bearings will give the bike. I just don't understand how frame manufactures have let the DU bushing issue go on so long...


----------



## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Sorry for reviving an old thread..
Curious if anyone has put these on an Anthem (Anthem X2 2009), did it make any difference?

Cheers


----------



## darrinw2001 (Dec 14, 2007)

Goldigger said:


> Sorry for reviving an old thread..
> Curious if anyone has put these on an Anthem (Anthem X2 2009), did it make any difference?
> 
> Cheers


I put them on my 2009 Trance and it made a huge difference.. same type of suspension so I am sure it will for your anthem as well


----------



## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Does make a difference on an Anthem X. You can only replace the top bushing. Suspension action is slightly improved but longevity over DU bushing is significantly improved.


----------



## darrinw2001 (Dec 14, 2007)

yes.. I had to replace DU bushing on my Trance twice in 1 year due to wear.. Needle bearings fixed that


----------



## TRAIL CRANKER (Apr 9, 2010)

*08 Yeti 575 Bearing ??*

Hey There !! Chris ,I have an 08 YETI 575 with a new RS Monarch Plus RC3 200 X2.0 .From what i understand ,,i can change the front shock bearing but not the rear because of the dogbone which travels smoothly. Can you tell me what bearing size i need and how many shims if they are required ?? I believe the front has a 12mm bushing with a 22mm reducer ,,8 X 31mm M6 x1. Hope thats right !! Thanks ,,Brett


----------



## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

darrinw2001 said:


> yes.. I had to replace DU bushing on my Trance twice in 1 year due to wear.. Needle bearings fixed that


YUP!

I was going thru DU bushings every MONTH on my bike until I went to needle bearings. Funny in that thread about PUSH and roller bearings how they say the wear out too and need more maintenance, blah blah blah. RWC has solved a BIG issue for me!!!

Thanks,

G MAN


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

TRAIL CRANKER said:


> Hey There !! Chris ,I have an 08 YETI 575 with a new RS Monarch Plus RC3 200 X2.0 .From what i understand ,,i can change the front shock bearing but not the rear because of the dogbone which travels smoothly. Can you tell me what bearing size i need and how many shims if they are required ?? I believe the front has a 12mm bushing with a 22mm reducer ,,8 X 31mm M6 x1. Hope thats right !! Thanks ,,Brett


Is there any rotation taking place at the front mount on the 575? If there is little to no rotation, there will not be a performance benefit to the upgrade. It's possible that there is no rotation through most of the travel and then some pivoting at the end of the stroke, so you may want to release some air from the shock and observe the front mount while you fully cycle the suspension. The Monarch shocks have the Fox standard eyelet size, so our NBKRWC2185 will fit the front.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Gman086 said:


> YUP!
> 
> I was going thru DU bushings every MONTH on my bike until I went to needle bearings. Funny in that thread about PUSH and roller bearings how they say the wear out too and need more maintenance, blah blah blah. RWC has solved a BIG issue for me!!!
> 
> ...


If you were chewing out DU bushings that quickly, you likely had chewed up reducers causing it. I'm not a fan of DU bushings, but if they don't last 6 months it's usually rough reducers killing them.


----------



## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

Dougal said:


> If you were chewing out DU bushings that quickly, you likely had chewed up reducers causing it. I'm not a fan of DU bushings, but if they don't last 6 months it's usually rough reducers killing them.


Nope, would replace those at the same time. Has far more to do with the suspension design (DW link for my 6 Point).

Have FUN!

G MAN


----------



## RobDMB (Apr 12, 2009)

Could anyone direct me as to what kit I need for a 2008 Giant Trance 1? This is the older Trance model with only 4.2 inch rear suspension. Would I need one or two kits for this model? Thanks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

RobDMB said:


> Could anyone direct me as to what kit I need for a 2008 Giant Trance 1? This is the older Trance model with only 4.2 inch rear suspension. Would I need one or two kits for this model? Thanks.


Just the top rocker mount: NBKRWC2185

Lower shock mount is incorporated into the lower link pin.


----------



## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> Just the top rocker mount: NBKRWC2185
> 
> Lower shock mount is incorporated into the lower link pin.


Hi just to confirm..
Same kit for an anthem x2 2009?
Do I need anything else like shim's etc?

Didn't want to order to find I missed something, and have to pay two lots of shipping to the UK..
Cheers


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Goldigger said:


> Hi just to confirm..
> Same kit for an anthem x2 2009?
> Do I need anything else like shim's etc?
> 
> ...


Correct. Most of the 2009 and later Athem, Trance, and Reign frames, whether "Advanced," "X," or whatever use the same upper rocker span (21.85mm) and have the lower shock mount incorporated into the link. So, the kit for the upper mount is all you need. The shims are only for shock mounting spans that fall between the sizes we offer. The NBKRWC2185 is a perfect match in your case so no shims are needed.


----------



## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> Correct. Most of the 2009 and later Athem, Trance, and Reign frames, whether "Advanced," "X," or whatever use the same upper rocker span (21.85mm) and have the lower shock mount incorporated into the link. So, the kit for the upper mount is all you need. The shims are only for shock mounting spans that fall between the sizes we offer. The NBKRWC2185 is a perfect match in your case so no shims are needed.


Thanks Chris..
I've noticed on my rear shock that through the travel there are a couple of points where the shock seems to stick.
Hopefully this will improve this, I don't think its the shock as I've just given it new seals etc..everything looks like new inside.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Goldigger said:


> Thanks Chris..
> I've noticed on my rear shock that through the travel there are a couple of points where the shock seems to stick.
> Hopefully this will improve this, I don't think its the shock as I've just given it new seals etc..everything looks like new inside.


Hard to say if it will "cure" that specific problem without knowing exactly what is causing it. What it will help is small bump compliance. When you go to make the change, you could leave just the top of the shock installed which would allow you to rotate the shock by hand at the rocker arm connection point. This way you would be able to detect rough spots easily. Also, with the shock out of the rear suspension "loop" you can cycle the entire rear triangle and see if those rough spots are due to pivot bearing issues.


----------



## BCBlur (Nov 23, 2004)

Any kits that would fit a Blur 4x? It has the same shock hardware as the Blur Classic and Blur XC (original). IIRC, it's a 3/8" axle and the reducers are 18mm in width.

The size is really odd and the bike is out of production, but it would be great to be able to run these.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

BCBlur said:


> Any kits that would fit a Blur 4x? It has the same shock hardware as the Blur Classic and Blur XC (original). IIRC, it's a 3/8" axle and the reducers are 18mm in width.
> 
> The size is really odd and the bike is out of production, but it would be great to be able to run these.


This is a tough one. You already touched on a couple of challenges. Individually, the challenges could be overcome, but the combo is pretty bad. In a nutshell: Seatstay bearings, swing link, and lower shock mount all converge on a single point with a 3/8" bolt tying them all together. The 3/8" bolt is too big to go through the needle bearing inner ring so we would have to step everything down. Add to that the very narrow space for the shock to fit into (more custom work). Anyway, nothing for this one yet...


----------



## BorisD (Apr 6, 2006)

I have a Transition Covert V2 and would like to give this a go. The shock mounting width is 22.2mm however according to the RWC chart it recommends kit NBKRWC2185 - width 21.85mm.
Is this an error or am I missing something?

Cheers.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

BorisD said:


> I have a Transition Covert V2 and would like to give this a go. The shock mounting width is 22.2mm however according to the RWC chart it recommends kit NBKRWC2185 - width 21.85mm.
> Is this an error or am I missing something?
> 
> Cheers.


The NBKRWC2220 is correct. We went by the Fox database, but Transition states the span is 22.20. The frame manufacturer's specs should be more reliable. We will update the chart.


----------



## BorisD (Apr 6, 2006)

Chris2fur said:


> The NBKRWC2220 is correct. We went by the Fox database, but Transition states the span is 22.20. The frame manufacturer's specs should be more reliable. We will update the chart.


Thanks.


----------



## danoalb (Dec 19, 2005)

*Did the deed*

I installed the RWC needle bearing kit on my new PUSHED Monarch RT/AM for my 2009 Cannondale Rize three and also changed all the suspension pivot bearing to the RWC Max suspension bearings. The combination of all has made my rear end so sensitive to small bumps it's not funny :thumbsup::thumbsup: The needle bearing kit fit so perfect on my Rize I was so pleased, I also bought the installation tool as it seats the bearings so easy and perfect. My rear suspension literally cycles when I run over a ant  The needle bearing kit for the Rize is NBKRWC2220 which I ordered with the red collars. RWC makes the best stuff for bikes period. YEAH RWC :drumroll: :band:


----------



## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

Must say these look great. Just ordered some, so matched with the Kashima upgrade I reckon I will be blowing through my travel far too easily!!


----------



## Adh007 (Mar 30, 2009)

Quick question. Other than the fact that the RWS kit is vastly better looking, what is the difference between the RWC kit and the one offered at Universal cycles? LINK The top mount on my Jet9 just went sloppy and I'm looking to do this asap.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Adh007 said:


> Quick question. Other than the fact that the RWC kit is vastly better looking, what is the difference between the RWC kit and the one offered at Universal cycles? LINK The top mount on my Jet9 just went sloppy and I'm looking to do this asap.


The difference is they supply a needle bearing, inner ring, and a stack of seals for spacers. In other words, the wider the space on each side of the shock, the more seals you stack up. You get no aluminum spacers. It's a rather half-finished product. Edit: Nothing against UC. They are just reselling something that Enduro has made available. Not an elegant solution, but that's fine because if they offered a copy of ours, there would definitely be some issues....


----------



## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Adh007 said:


> Quick question. Other than the fact that the RWS kit is vastly better looking, what is the difference between the RWC kit and the one offered at Universal cycles? LINK The top mount on my Jet9 just went sloppy and I'm looking to do this asap.


Looks like the shaft is made from alluminium? just going by the different shades in the metal so could be off, but if they are then its not going to last long lol.

And yeah they look half finished.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

essenmeinstuff said:


> Looks like the shaft is made from alluminium? just going by the different shades in the metal so could be off, but if they are then its not going to last long lol.
> 
> And yeah they look half finished.


Yes, speaking of the "half finished" kits previously referred to, I think that's an accurate description. However, the inner rings ("shafts") are not aluminum. They would not last five minutes that way.


----------



## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I got stung by customs for one needle bearing! £11.95


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Goldigger said:


> I got stung by customs for one needle bearing! £11.95


Legalized robbery.


----------



## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

After paying the leagal robbery fees, I installed the needle bearings..
Yet to try it out as, after a chat with a technician from mojo it appears that my air shaft spring assembly is knackered in my forks!
So waiting for that to turn up so i can replace it..









Here's what i took out..not very impressive!


----------



## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

Blue looks nice and matches the shock lever. Wish I had opted for blue now, as we know that looks are more important than function!


----------



## Radical_53 (Nov 22, 2006)

Yesterday I installed a bearing on my newer shock and I can't say how satisfied I am with Chris' customer service 
My previous shock was a Fox RP23 and after lots of swapping and new parts from Chris I had finally found the perfect match, no play and smooth action. When I installed the same bearing into my new shock, a RS Monarch, the shaft wouldn't even go in. Thanks to Chris I had some parts to swap and find a smoothly working combination.
Thanks again for that! The bearing remains to be one of my favorite add-on tweaks / upgrades of all times


----------



## royta (Jan 17, 2006)

What's the long term report for these on a four bar (faux bar in my case) suspension design? I have an '06 Turner Flux and am sending my '06 Reba Team and RP3 to Push this week.

I'm concerned about impacts against the bearings and possibly flattening the bearing cage.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

royta said:


> What's the long term report for these on a four bar (faux bar in my case) suspension design? I have an '06 Turner Flux and am sending my '06 Reba Team and RP3 to Push this week.
> 
> I'm concerned about impacts against the bearings and possibly flattening the bearing cage.
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


From this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/turner/enduro-needle-bearing-ride-report-581373-7.html :

"And btw, close to 800 kms on mine and no issues on durability yet."

"Over 1200 dirt miles on mine, no issues. I repack them every few months."


----------



## pcmark (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't see an application for a 2002 Specialized FSR XC, but I see 2001 FSR XC listed. Do you have anything for that model. I thought that the 2001-2003's were the same.


----------



## sand0kan (Jun 6, 2010)

Is there a kit for the Niner Jet 9 RDO....if yes what is the part number?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

sand0kan said:


> Is there a kit for the Niner Jet 9 RDO....if yes what is the part number?


NBKRWC2185 is the kit for the upper rocker mount (same for bottom, but no performance gain due to no rotation at that end).


----------



## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

My Kit has some very noticable play..even with the +spacer i could feel play when i installed it
Lift up the bike and there is an audible clonk...i can even see the movement on the bearing
when lifting the saddle up..


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Goldigger said:


> My Kit has some very noticable play..even with the +spacer i could feel play when i installed it
> Lift up the bike and there is an audible clonk...i can even see the movement on the bearing
> when lifting the saddle up..


Did you contact us via email?


----------



## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> Did you contact us via email?


Nope should i have? if so i apologise..


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Yes, please! If your girl has a problem with you, do you want her to contact you directly or post it on a public forum?  Contact us directly and we'll take care of you.



Goldigger said:


> Nope should i have? if so i apologise..


----------



## edley (Dec 8, 2006)

Chris2fur said:


> Yes, please! If your girl has a problem with you, do you want her to contact you directly or post it on a public forum?  Contact us directly and we'll take care of you.


Thought of the day!


----------



## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

when my Mrs has a problem with me..there is no contact..I get the silent treatment for 3 days..
Then it all comes out 
3 days peace and quiet:thumbsup:


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Goldigger said:


> when my Mrs has a problem with me..there is no contact..I get the silent treatment for 3 days..
> Then it all comes out
> 3 days peace and quiet:thumbsup:


Ha ha. Thanks for the email. We are on it.


----------



## dreednya (Mar 9, 2004)

How easy is it to give these a quick re-lube? I had a look at the rubber seals, but they did not seem to want to move so is it a case of squirting grease into the bearing from the middle.

Just wondering, they still spin smoothly enough, but as the shock is off having a service I thought why not give them a clean and re-grease

Cheers


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

dreednya said:


> How easy is it to give these a quick re-lube? I had a look at the rubber seals, but they did not seem to want to move so is it a case of squirting grease into the bearing from the middle.
> 
> Just wondering, they still spin smoothly enough, but as the shock is off having a service I thought why not give them a clean and re-grease
> 
> Cheers


With the shock out, you can take off one or both spacers (seals are attached to spacers) and then carefully remove the inner ring (axle). I say "carefully" because these are MAX bearings (no retainer) and the needle rollers can fall out. With the inner ring out, you have access to the inside of the bearing and can pack it with grease. Re-insert the inner ring and rotate it several times. Remove the inner ring and repeat the greasing process until the needles are coated and voids are filled. Re-install the inner ring and spacers and you are good.


----------



## Agate (May 25, 2010)

Got my shock bearing kit, and they're awesome so far, but now it's time for frame bearings (if you don't mind the small threadjack). Just wondering, what's the best tool to remove/install a bolt from a threaded bearing (6000 FE 2RS SP)?


----------



## dreednya (Mar 9, 2004)

Thanks Chris,

that is what I thought about the seals. So use a fine pair of tweezers or something similar to pop off the inner ring?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

dreednya said:


> Thanks Chris,
> 
> that is what I thought about the seals. So use a fine pair of tweezers or something similar to pop off the inner ring?


The inner ring just pulls out of the bearing assembly by hand. I can't see a need for tweezers. See the pic below...


----------



## dreednya (Mar 9, 2004)

Thanks for posting that Chris. I see where you mean now and it makes more sense. I'll have to wait for my shock to come back from being serviced to do this. I did write it down for them that I needed the needle rollers left in the shock - hope they did that or else I'll be well annoyed........

Thinking about it, I should of removed them


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Agate said:


> Got my shock bearing kit, and they're awesome so far, but now it's time for frame bearings (if you don't mind the small threadjack). Just wondering, what's the best tool to remove/install a bolt from a threaded bearing (6000 FE 2RS SP)?


Sorry for not answering this sooner. Bearings that have threaded inner races usually have slots on one side for keeping the inner race stationary while threading the bolt in or out:


----------



## Agate (May 25, 2010)

It does have the slots, I was just wondering if there's a specific tool that's good to use. On my frame (BMC Superstroke) those two are at the top of the upper link, connected to the seatstays, and so there's not a lot of room to work, even with the shock out and the link rolled forward.

Edit: the top bearings in this picture.


----------



## darnelli (Jul 14, 2009)

any application for MOJO HD?


----------



## hameedx (Oct 1, 2011)

Anyone know what I need for a 2004 Kona Stinky with a Fox RP2?


----------



## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

hameedx said:


> Anyone know what I need for a 2004 Kona Stinky with a Fox RP2?


A wash?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Agate said:


> It does have the slots, I was just wondering if there's a specific tool that's good to use. On my frame (BMC Superstroke) those two are at the top of the upper link, connected to the seatstays, and so there's not a lot of room to work, even with the shock out and the link rolled forward.
> 
> Edit: the top bearings in this picture.
> 
> I don't know of a special tool for the job. Sure hope some anti-seize was used on the bolts... If you can't find anything that gets a firm bite in that slot, you may want to have something machined. If you chinger up the slot by using something that doesn't fit, it may get ugly. On the other hand, if the threads were properly prepped, it may not take too much force to break the bolt loose. I'm so late with this reply that you have probably already resolved the issue.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

darnelli said:


> any application for MOJO HD?


All the Mojos use the NBKRWC3988 at the link and the NBKRWC2185 at the top tube mount. The link is the important end to change. There may be some slight rotation at the very end of the stroke at the top tube end.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

hameedx said:


> Anyone know what I need for a 2004 Kona Stinky with a Fox RP2?


According to the Fox database, 45.72mm is the span at the business end. This should do the trick:

1 pcs NBKRWC4374
2 pcs shim kit SS8X15X0.5


----------



## Agate (May 25, 2010)

Chris2fur said:


> I don't know of a special tool for the job. Sure hope some anti-seize was used on the bolts... If you can't find anything that gets a firm bite in that slot, you may want to have something machined. If you chinger up the slot by using something that doesn't fit, it may get ugly. On the other hand, if the threads were properly prepped, it may not take too much force to break the bolt loose. I'm so late with this reply that you have probably already resolved the issue.


Got them out, haven't put it back together yet. Seems like a chainring bolt wrench with the middle point ground down would work, but just wanted to check if there was something else I hadn't thought of.

Also wondering if I should use anti-seize or blue Loctite when I put it back together. Not a bolt that I'd want to have back out on me while riding...


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Agate said:


> Got them out, haven't put it back together yet. Seems like a chainring bolt wrench with the middle point ground down would work, but just wanted to check if there was something else I hadn't thought of.
> 
> Also wondering if I should use anti-seize or blue Loctite when I put it back together. Not a bolt that I'd want to have back out on me while riding...


Not sure. What was on it? As long as you use one or the other you should be OK. Using nothing would be the worst.


----------



## Agate (May 25, 2010)

Chris2fur said:


> Not sure. What was on it? As long as you use one or the other you should be OK. Using nothing would be the worst.


Something that was white after 4 years of being on the bike. 

Maybe I'll use a combo of loctite on the threads and anti-seize on the shoulders...


----------



## hameedx (Oct 1, 2011)

Chris2fur said:


> According to the Fox database, 45.72mm is the span at the business end. This should do the trick:
> 
> 1 pcs NBKRWC4374
> 2 pcs shim kit SS8X15X0.5


Thanks Chris2fur.

Also, what do kit do I need for a 2008 Norco Faze 1 with a Fox RP23?


----------



## purple dog (Nov 26, 2008)

*Santa Cruz Blur XC 1.0*

Hello,

Could you please tell me which needle bearing kit is compatible with Santa Cruz Blur XC *1.0* with Fox Shock RP3?

For upper and lower part of shock?

On the shock chart most SC bikes, Blur XC 2.0 and LT2 are compatible with NBKRWC2185 but I have Blur XC *1.0*.

This is link to Blur XC 1.0 propack if that helps: Santa Cruz Bicycles .

Thanks!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

hameedx said:


> Thanks Chris2fur.
> 
> Also, what do kit do I need for a 2008 Norco Faze 1 with a Fox RP23?


32.41mm is the rocker arm span. I recommend the following:

1 pcs NBKRWC30
3 pcs shim kit SS8x15x0.5

Try 2 shim kits first and test the fit. If there is noticeable space, attempt to add the 3rd set of shims. If the third set won't fit, go with the 2 sets. Load the suspension and torque the hardware down. Be sure the rocker arms have been drawn in tightly toward each other, capturing the needle bearing assembly.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

purple dog said:


> Hello,
> 
> Could you please tell me which needle bearing kit is compatible with Santa Cruz Blur XC *1.0* with Fox Shock RP3?


We do not have a kit for the XC 1. There are many factors making the conversion a bit of a nightmare. First, it uses 3/8" hardware. This, in and of itself is not so hard to overcome. However, on top of that, the seat stay bearings, swing link, and shock eyelet converge on a single point.


----------



## purple dog (Nov 26, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> We do not have a kit for the XC 1. There are many factors making the conversion a bit of a nightmare. First, it uses 3/8" hardware. This, in and of itself is not so hard to overcome. However, on top of that, the seat stay bearings, swing link, and shock eyelet converge on a single point.


Ah. I am sorry to hear that. 
But thanks for the fast reply!

Best regards!


----------



## qdiggety (Jul 20, 2010)

Chris,

Do you have a needle bearing kit for a 2007 Gary Fisher Fat Possum w/ a Manitou Swinger X3?

I have a set of Enduro seals on the Fox Float RL fork and they are great.


----------



## zaner123 (Jun 21, 2008)

Chris,

Is NBKRWC2185 the correct part for a 2005 Rocky Mountain ETSX-70? I have a Fox RP3. 

Also, does one needle bearing conversion kit replace both the bushing AND the reducer?

Thanks


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

zaner123 said:


> Chris,
> 
> Is NBKRWC2185 the correct part for a 2005 Rocky Mountain ETSX-70? I have a Fox RP3.
> 
> ...


Yes, that is the correct kit for the upper (rocker arm) end. It takes the place of the DU bushing and the reducers. You just reuse the bolt (in this case the QR, if so equipped).


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

qdiggety said:


> Chris,
> 
> Do you have a needle bearing kit for a 2007 Gary Fisher Fat Possum w/ a Manitou Swinger X3?
> 
> I have a set of Enduro seals on the Fox Float RL fork and they are great.


We show the rear swing arm mount as 40mm. However, unless the Manitou shock is 2011 or later, the eyelet bore will be too small for our needle bearing kit.


----------



## mazspeed (Oct 17, 2004)

Hey Chris. I bought the new set for the HD with the rp23 about 6-8 months ago when the new bearing came out. I am starting to feel some play in it now. I have a feeling it will get worse. Is there an even new strong bearing out for this? And if I switch out my rp23 for something different, like a Cane Creek or Monarch, will these fit?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mazspeed said:


> Hey Chris. I bought the new set for the HD with the rp23 about 6-8 months ago when the new bearing came out. I am starting to feel some play in it now. I have a feeling it will get worse. Is there an even new strong bearing out for this? And if I switch out my rp23 for something different, like a Cane Creek or Monarch, will these fit?


If there was no play initially, then the tolerance is OK. The needle bearings don't wear down with time. Likely you just need to pack in more grease and spin the inner ring around a few times. CC shocks don't match the Fox spec, but the Monarch does.


----------



## mazspeed (Oct 17, 2004)

Ok, yeah the play was not there before. I didn't even notice it till when the bike shop lifted the rear seat and I put my finger on the rear bearing, and I could feel the play. I would have felt it later on, but I do know when the shop put them in, there was no play. I was thinking of getting the push monarch for the HD. How about x-fusion or bos vipr? I will ride it like it is, but if it gets worse I will contact you.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mazspeed said:


> Ok, yeah the play was not there before. I didn't even notice it till when the bike shop lifted the rear seat and I put my finger on the rear bearing, and I could feel the play. I would have felt it later on, but I do know when the shop put them in, there was no play. I was thinking of getting the push monarch for the HD. How about x-fusion or bos vipr? I will ride it like it is, but if it gets worse I will contact you.


Well, like I said, you should repack with grease. The last two years of X-Fusion shocks should be compatible. The ones before 2011 I think were 14mm instead of 15mm. I think the BOS eyelets are also a smaller bore.


----------



## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Hi Chris, many thanks for sending out a replacement needle bearing and inner ring. The fit is much better with minimal play, when I say minimal..enough to slide the inner ring in 
:thumbsup: great customer service..
I knocked up this simple little tool on the mill today, which uses a M10 bolt..now I don't need to remove my shock everytime..


----------



## dreednya (Mar 9, 2004)

A quick question. I'm running the needle bearing kits on my Ibis Mojo front and back and noticed I have a bit of play. so I swapped out the rear inner sleeve, but when doing this I noticed that while the shock was still attached to the bike there was sideways play in the front - in that, I could wiggle the shock side to side. The play I had is still there, but does not appear to be coming from the rear (I can not see any movement there).

Is this sideways movement usual? I would of thought with the bolts tightened up correctly there would be no sideways movement, but maybe the spacers allow this.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Goldigger said:


> Hi Chris, many thanks for sending out a replacement needle bearing and inner ring. The fit is much better with minimal play, when I say minimal..enough to slide the inner ring in
> :thumbsup: great customer service..
> I knocked up this simple little tool on the mill today, which uses a M10 bolt..now I don't need to remove my shock everytime..


Very nice!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

dreednya said:


> A quick question. I'm running the needle bearing kits on my Ibis Mojo front and back and noticed I have a bit of play. so I swapped out the rear inner sleeve, but when doing this I noticed that while the shock was still attached to the bike there was sideways play in the front - in that, I could wiggle the shock side to side. The play I had is still there, but does not appear to be coming from the rear (I can not see any movement there).
> 
> Is this sideways movement usual? I would of thought with the bolts tightened up correctly there would be no sideways movement, but maybe the spacers allow this.


Yes, normal for two reasons:
1) the roller elements can shift when you do this
2) the seals have some give to them


----------



## dreednya (Mar 9, 2004)

Thanks Chris ) - hadn't noticed a loss in performance so guessed they were fine


----------



## oclvframe (Dec 8, 2007)

Chris2fur,

I have a Superfly 100 Pro which is now giving out a little squeak as I ride it with the stock bushings. I am hoping the needle bearings will fix this. I am asking my local shop to get in the tools and parts to do this....do you have some contact info where they could contact you guys and set something up? 

-r


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

oclvframe said:


> Chris2fur,
> 
> I have a Superfly 100 Pro which is now giving out a little squeak as I ride it with the stock bushings. I am hoping the needle bearings will fix this. I am asking my local shop to get in the tools and parts to do this....do you have some contact info where they could contact you guys and set something up?
> 
> -r


Sure, our email is [email protected]


----------



## darnelli (Jul 14, 2009)

chris, sent you a PM and a email a long while ago regarding purchasing other colored spacers, is this possible if i want to mix/match the spacers on my bike?


----------



## darnelli (Jul 14, 2009)

no response to this chris?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

darnelli said:


> no response to this chris?


Sorry! Just sent you a PM.


----------



## danielsilva (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi,

Really interested in this but looked in the shock chart and couldn't find my frame. Is it possible to use these on a 2006/07 Cannondale Rush ( Fox RP3 ) ?


----------



## FMX_DBC (Jul 3, 2011)

Hi Chris! I've installed the needle bearing kit on both ends of my shock with the larger size sleeve to get the tightest fit but Im experiencing a slight bit of play when fully assembled.

Any ideas?

Craig from Phoenix


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

FMX_DBC said:


> Hi Chris! I've installed the needle bearing kit on both ends of my shock with the larger size sleeve to get the tightest fit but Im experiencing a slight bit of play when fully assembled.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Craig from Phoenix


Hi, Craig: What frame and what shock?


----------



## FMX_DBC (Jul 3, 2011)

Santa Cruz Nickel with Fox RP23


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

danielsilva said:


> Hi,
> 
> Really interested in this but looked in the shock chart and couldn't find my frame. Is it possible to use these on a 2006/07 Cannondale Rush ( Fox RP3 ) ?


Best I can tell, the rear shock mounting span is 37.59 and uses an 8mm bolt. So, you would need:

1 pcs NBKRWC3556 (RWC SHOCK EYE NEEDLE BEARING KITS) 
2 pcs Shim Kit SS8x15x0.5 (STAINLESS STEEL SHIMS FOR NEEDLE BEARING KIT NBKRWC40)


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

FMX_DBC said:


> Santa Cruz Nickel with Fox RP23


OK, so 2 NBKRWC2185 kits. Send me an email with your order info and I'll send you a couple of "++" tolerance inner rings (yep, up a notch in OD from the "+" tolerance). We just got them in.


----------



## GNR (Oct 16, 2004)

*2001 Klein Mantra*

I've got a 2001 Klein Mantra without a shock and my LBS is referring me to a metal shop to have reducers made for a Manitou Swinger SPV shock because Trek no longer has the parts. Shock is probably from 2005 or 06...I've also got a Vanilla coil that will fit, but also w/o reducers...I see the 2001 Mantra on the website, so I'm hopeful, but wanted to check here.

Got anything to help the old girl?

Thanks, GNR


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

GNR said:


> I've got a 2001 Klein Mantra without a shock and my LBS is referring me to a metal shop to have reducers made for a Manitou Swinger SPV shock because Trek no longer has the parts. Shock is probably from 2005 or 06...I've also got a Vanilla coil that will fit, but also w/o reducers...I see the 2001 Mantra on the website, so I'm hopeful, but wanted to check here.
> 
> Got anything to help the old girl?
> 
> Thanks, GNR


First off, the older Manitou shock is out for use with our kit. The Vanilla is a go. Your frame is in the database as having 21.85mm mounting spans at each end. I'm not sure how much shock eye rotation takes place at either end. Our NBKRWC2185 would work at each end (2 kits required). However, if one end is relatively static it would be cheaper for you to just get a Fox hardware kit for that end. Do you have the mounting bolts?


----------



## GNR (Oct 16, 2004)

*Mantra*

Nope, bolts are long gone as well.

I'm not really sure how much rotation happens at either end really, but the way my LBS was talking, they didn't think Fox would be much help in getting hardware for the frame either.

I figure even if the needle bearings are overkill for the design, I'll be riding it instead to looking at it hanging on the well.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

GNR said:


> Nope, bolts are long gone as well.
> 
> I'm not really sure how much rotation happens at either end really, but the way my LBS was talking, they didn't think Fox would be much help in getting hardware for the frame either.
> 
> ...


If the Fox database is correct, you need Fox part number 803-03-000 for each end. That's a standard 2-piece reducer kit. If the Vanilla already has bushings in it, you will only need to come up with your own 6mm bolts. Those reducer kits are readily available online for around $10.00.


----------



## GNR (Oct 16, 2004)

Got the kits for $8. $2 bolts at the hardware...much cheaper and works perfectly. Thanks for the selfless help.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

GNR said:


> Got the kits for $8. $2 bolts at the hardware...much cheaper and works perfectly. Thanks for the selfless help.


Cool! Glad that worked out.


----------



## Sagnak (Jan 26, 2012)

*RWC Needle bearing play problem*

Chris
I got 2 of these bearings for my Rize and somehow between the needle bearing and the inner ring there is play even when i installed the + tolerance ring do you have a ++ version of the inner ring or what do you suggest me to do

Order RWC-201202090631-000825‏
Order RWC-201205131022-522525

thanks

Sagnak


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Sagnak said:


> Chris
> I got 2 of these bearings for my Rize and somehow between the needle bearing and the inner ring there is play even when i installed the + tolerance ring do you have a ++ version of the inner ring or what do you suggest me to do
> 
> Order RWC-201202090631-000825‏
> ...


Yes, we now have "++" tolerance inner rings for the 22.20mm kits. I will provide details to you via email. For general information, the 21.85 and 22.20 kits are all shipping with 3 inner rings now ("-" "+" and "++").


----------



## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

Chris,
I emailed you a while back with regards to having play in my shock kits which are both 21.85mm. You spoke of the '++' inners and kindly emailed me once they were in production to which I replied with what I required, since then I have had no reply, even after a second email. I'm contacting you through this forum just incase my emails are not being received as your customer service is excellent. Have the '++' inners for my kits been produced yet, as the play in both ends has worsened a little?

Regards,
Russel.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

ruscle said:


> Chris,
> I emailed you a while back with regards to having play in my shock kits which are both 21.85mm. You spoke of the '++' inners and kindly emailed me once they were in production to which I replied with what I required, since then I have had no reply, even after a second email. I'm contacting you through this forum just incase my emails are not being received as your customer service is excellent. Have the '++' inners for my kits been produced yet, as the play in both ends has worsened a little?
> 
> Regards,
> Russel.


Hi, Russel: Can you please send me PM with your email address so I can search it? Must have missed it.


----------



## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

No worries, will do.
Regards,
Russel.


----------



## kmacon (Nov 15, 2006)

Chris,
I have the NBKRWC40 and NBKRWC22 kits on my Trek TF69er and love them! However they don't add enough bling to be noticed since I bought them in basic black. Can I purchase just the spacers without the bearings with a different color anodizing?


----------



## mehukatti (Sep 21, 2005)

I have used the NBKRWC2185 kit with DHX Air on Nomad Carbon. Does anyone know if that same kit works with Vivid Air or CCDB Air on NomadC?


----------



## Sagnak (Jan 26, 2012)

*Thanks to RWC Chris*



Chris2fur said:


> Yes, we now have "++" tolerance inner rings for the 22.20mm kits. I will provide details to you via email. For general information, the 21.85 and 22.20 kits are all shipping with 3 inner rings now ("-" "+" and "++").


Chris

thank you for sending me the ++ rings as i have just received installed and tried them they're excellent and made everything how its supposed to be.
thank you again

Sagnak


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mehukatti said:


> I have used the NBKRWC2185 kit with DHX Air on Nomad Carbon. Does anyone know if that same kit works with Vivid Air or CCDB Air on NomadC?


Sorry--missed this post. It's a go on the Vivid. The CC shocks are not a match (shock eyelet bore different).


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Sagnak said:


> Chris
> 
> thank you for sending me the ++ rings as i have just received installed and tried them they're excellent and made everything how its supposed to be.
> thank you again
> ...


Great! Thanks for the follow-up.


----------



## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

Hi Chris,
Received my ++ inner ring late last week and installed them yesterday. They are now perfect and everything feels solid. Great service.
Regards,
Russel.


----------



## llamma (Apr 28, 2012)

I think I read somewhere that PUSH prefers bushings over needle bearings, but does anyone know if they will push in these bearings if requested if you send a kit along with your shock?


----------



## herb1234 (Sep 7, 2011)

Anyone know if these will fit the eyelets on a cane creek shock?


----------



## Agate (May 25, 2010)

herb1234 said:


> Anyone know if these will fit the eyelets on a cane creek shock?





Chris2fur said:


> Sorry--missed this post. It's a go on the Vivid. The CC shocks are not a match (shock eyelet bore different).


They don't.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

ruscle said:


> Hi Chris,
> Received my ++ inner ring late last week and installed them yesterday. They are now perfect and everything feels solid. Great service.
> Regards,
> Russel.


Great! Thanks for the report!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

llamma said:


> I think I read somewhere that PUSH prefers bushings over needle bearings, but does anyone know if they will push in these bearings if requested if you send a kit along with your shock?


Pretty sure they will. We have supplied PUSH with extra needle roller elements to replace those that sometimes fall out during shipping, so they are familiar with them.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Philip453 said:


> sucky, i have 10x30 hardware..


What is the application?


----------



## D_Simmonds_101 (Jul 21, 2008)

Hey Chris2fur. Did a search in this thread for the Legend and I got nothing so what size do I need for my Banshee Legend with a Manitou Revox rear shock? Thanks


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

D_Simmonds_101 said:


> Hey Chris2fur. Did a search in this thread for the Legend and I got nothing so what size do I need for my Banshee Legend with a Manitou Revox rear shock? Thanks


What year is your shock? If it is 2011 or newer, then our kits will work. If it is 2010 or older, it won't. The correct kit (if the shock year is OK) is NBKRWC2220. The same kit fits both ends of the shock. The rear mount will benefit greatly from the upgrade to the needle bearing system. I'm not sure how much rotation there is at the front end of the shock. I suggest cycling the suspension as deeply as you can while observing the front of the shock. If there is no real rotation taking place at the front end, the upgrade would only be cosmetic at that end.


----------



## BustedBearing (Apr 28, 2011)

Is there any other way people outside the US, I'm on Europe, can get ahold on your products without having to import directly from you guys. Don't get me wrong there is no major problem with it. However if there was a way for us small costumers to avoid the possibility of having to deal with customs and their delays it would be sweet. Especially because most countries do their checks based on declared values and your products usually start up around 30$. Orders with more objects and the value goes up easily augmenting the possibility of having to pay further importation taxes...


----------



## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

I had to pay near £100 for a pair of these kits due to UK import taxes but would pay it again as definately worth every penny. You do feel a little cheated by customs as they probably make more than Chris does, especially when they charge you £11 for telling you that they are stinging you extra!


----------



## cubb (Aug 20, 2008)

Hey Chri2fur,

I have a 2011 Norco range 2 with a rs monarch rt3.3 rear shock, looking at getting the needle bearing kit but didn't notice my frame/shock combo on your website. Would you be able to inform me of what i need?

Thanks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

cubb said:


> Hey Chri2fur,
> 
> I have a 2011 Norco range 2 with a rs monarch rt3.3 rear shock, looking at getting the needle bearing kit but didn't notice my frame/shock combo on your website. Would you be able to inform me of what i need?
> 
> Thanks.


The upper rocker mount takes our NBKRWC4115. The lower mount is mostly stationary, so to change it would be only cosmetic. That span should be 23.88mm, so, if you wanted to do it, you would need the NBKRWC2185 plus two shim kits.


----------



## cubb (Aug 20, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Chris. So i don't need any shims for the upper mount? The two shim kits you spoke of are for the lower mount only?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Right. NBKRWC4115 is a match for the top. No shims needed.


----------



## cubb (Aug 20, 2008)

Ok Great. Thanks for your help Chris. 

Also would you be able to find the bearings needed to upgrade the rear suspension linkage to the max bearings? Norco did have a spec sheet but has since removed it from their website? This again is for the Range 2.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

cubb said:


> Ok Great. Thanks for your help Chris.
> 
> Also would you be able to find the bearings needed to upgrade the rear suspension linkage to the max bearings? Norco did have a spec sheet but has since removed it from their website? This again is for the Range 2.


I will see if I can track those bearing numbers down.


----------



## cubb (Aug 20, 2008)

Thanks Chris. It really sucks Norco pulled that sheet it listed all frame specs with bearing and hardware info. I don't really want to pull my bike apart until i have the bearings to replace them.


----------



## cubb (Aug 20, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> I will see if I can track those bearing numbers down.


Hey Chris, just wondering if you have had any luck getting those bearing numbers?

Thanks


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

cubb said:


> Hey Chris, just wondering if you have had any luck getting those bearing numbers?
> 
> Thanks


No. The contact info on their site only allows questions about the website. I tried it anyway, but received a form email stating that any tech questions had to be directed through a local dealer. You may need to tear it down and provide measurements (unless the place you bought it will provide the info). If you provide us the data, we will supply the bearings at no charge.


----------



## cubb (Aug 20, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> No. The contact info on their site only allows questions about the website. I tried it anyway, but received a form email stating that any tech questions had to be directed through a local dealer. You may need to tear it down and provide measurements (unless the place you bought it will provide the info). If you provide us the data, we will supply the bearings at no charge.


Ok, I will ask my LBS they should get the info for me. So what your telling me is that i don't have to pay for the bearings for the rear suspension pivot points? Thanks so much for the help Chris.

Cubb


----------



## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

Chris, after just a quick browse of this thread, it appears you don't have a kit to fit the Cane Creek Cloud Nine shock bore diameter...??? Is this true?

Anyone know what the bore ID is? Smaller or larger than a Fox Float? 
Anything that could be possibly done to modify one of these kits to fit CC?


I have a CC Cloud 9 on my Iron Horse Azure and I love it! But, I am beginning to develop quite a bit of play in the rear shaft bushing and need a replacement. This is how I came across this RWC needle bearing kit (have purchased several other things from RWC in past with great success, too!), and I was extremely excited to order one for my application... that is until coming across this thread.

any help here is much appreciated!


----------



## cubb (Aug 20, 2008)

Hey Chris, Received my needle bearing kit a couple weeks ago and the bike feels awesome with it installed. I did find the bearing sizes needed for the range so you guys can make a kit. Is the offer still up that you will provide the bearings at no charge? Here are the bearing numbers

QTY
BB Pivot Bearing [ID*OD*W mm] 15*28*7 (6902) 2
Horst Pivot Bearing [ID*OD*W mm] 8*22*7 (608) 2
SS/Linkarm Pivot Bearing [ID*OD*W mm] 8*22*7 (608) 2 
Main Linkarm Pivot Bearing [ID*OD*W mm] 12*28*8 (6001) 2

Thanks


----------



## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

BikeSATORI said:


> Chris, after just a quick browse of this thread, it appears you don't have a kit to fit the Cane Creek Cloud Nine shock bore diameter...??? Is this true?
> 
> Anyone know what the bore ID is? Smaller or larger than a Fox Float?
> Anything that could be possibly done to modify one of these kits to fit CC?
> ...


??? 
...never received a reply from my direct email neither...


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

cubb said:


> Hey Chris, Received my needle bearing kit a couple weeks ago and the bike feels awesome with it installed. I did find the bearing sizes needed for the range so you guys can make a kit. Is the offer still up that you will provide the bearings at no charge? Here are the bearing numbers
> 
> QTY
> BB Pivot Bearing [ID*OD*W mm] 15*28*7 (6902) 2
> ...


Sure, just place an order for them and add a note or follow up with an email and we'll take care of it.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

BikeSATORI said:


> ???
> ...never received a reply from my direct email neither...


Could not ever find anything definitive on the Cloud 9 eyelet spec. However, I'm not hopeful. The DB line has two different bore sizes and neither is compatible. One standard is 14.7mm and the other is right around 16mm.

You could always measure it, if you really want to know...


----------



## cubb (Aug 20, 2008)

I just placed an order in for the bearings. I sent a follow up email and tagged the order as well.

Thanks Chris.


----------



## leiito (Mar 14, 2012)

Gettin mine next week

I ordered the kit with a 21.85mm span...that will fit the 2011 specialized enduro correct?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

leiito said:


> Gettin mine next week
> 
> I ordered the kit with a 21.85mm span...that will fit the 2011 specialized enduro correct?


No, my friend. That frame uses a clevis at the rear shock mount. No rotation takes place within the shock eyelet. The rotation is transferred to the bearings at the other end of the clevis.


----------



## leiito (Mar 14, 2012)

Chris2fur said:


> No, my friend. That frame uses a clevis at the rear shock mount. No rotation takes place within the shock eyelet. The rotation is transferred to the bearings at the other end of the clevis.


Ah yes, but I'm replacing the DU bushing that went bad on the other end XD... not a whole lot of rotation there either but I wanted to try something different. I was told that measurement was the correct one for the eyelet that bolts up to the top tube... part number NBKRWC2185


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

leiito said:


> Ah yes, but I'm replacing the DU bushing that went bad on the other end XD... not a whole lot of rotation there either but I wanted to try something different. I was told that measurement was the correct one for the eyelet that bolts up to the top tube... part number NBKRWC2185


I'm surprised to hear that the DU went bad at the other end. Does that end of the shock pivot near the end of the stroke or something? Anyway, glad you understood about the clevis. We have had people try and buy needle bearings for the clevis end!


----------



## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

Is there any hope of my successfully installing the needle bearing without the press tools?


----------



## leiito (Mar 14, 2012)

Chris2fur said:


> I'm surprised to hear that the DU went bad at the other end. Does that end of the shock pivot near the end of the stroke or something? Anyway, glad you understood about the clevis. We have had people try and buy needle bearings for the clevis end!


The bushing Push put in did not fit quite right. It had too much play even with the bolt torqued to spec. They're sending replacements but i figured I'd try these out. The shock does pivot a tiny bit but not a significant amount. I hope the kit i ordered fits lol. Thanks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

leiito said:


> The bushing Push put in did not fit quite right. It had too much play even with the bolt torqued to spec. They're sending replacements but i figured I'd try these out. The shock does pivot a tiny bit but not a significant amount. I hope the kit i ordered fits lol. Thanks.


Let me know if it doesn't.


----------



## FLMike (Sep 28, 2008)

hillharman said:


> Is there any hope of my successfully installing the needle bearing without the press tools?


Ive successfully done it without their tools, but I also have an Arbor Press


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

FLMike said:


> Ive successfully done it without their tools, but I also have an Arbor Press


Yes, it can definitely be done. It's just that if misalignment occurs at the wrong time, the cup that holds the needle roller elements can get distorted. The pilot part of the tool keeps that from happening.


----------



## leiito (Mar 14, 2012)

Well, I finally got it installed and rode a while. In case anyone is wondering, the needle bearings really don't make a difference in the Enduro lol. I'm sure it's an excellent product but there really isn't enough pivoting where the shock bolts up to the top tube to notice a difference. Oh well, at least I got rid of that play. Thanks Chris


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

leiito said:


> Well, I finally got it installed and rode a while. In case anyone is wondering, the needle bearings really don't make a difference in the Enduro lol. I'm sure it's an excellent product but there really isn't enough pivoting where the shock bolts up to the top tube to notice a difference. Oh well, at least I got rid of that play. Thanks Chris


Well at least the play is gone, so that's one positive outcome. We have talked several people out of getting the kits for that frame, but usually the intention was for the back end where the clevis is (which makes even less sense). There was a customer who called us about his local shop trying to sell him a kit for the clevis end. That was pretty fishy.


----------



## leiito (Mar 14, 2012)

Chris2fur said:


> There was a customer who called us about his local shop trying to sell him a kit for the clevis end. That was pretty fishy.


Some people... Thanks for being honest about it from the start. :thumbsup:


----------



## Cutbert (Jul 26, 2010)

As much as I love my Fox suspension I am totally unimpressed with their DU bushing system and the fact that it has taken them this long to figure out that a bronze dry lube bushing and aluminum reducers aren't the best mates for a pivot joint! 
I just installed my RWC needle bearing setup on my 2010 Trek Fuel EX9 and am completely elated by the smoothness of my suspension now. I went out for a 7 mile night ride in cold & muddy darkness on my familiar trails and just love how my suspension tracks through the rocks, bumps, logs and slick mud.

I do have a question for Chris2fur though. I received the roller bearing inserts marked "++"; "+" & "-" and I understand how to fit them. However the "++" is tight and causes the bearing to index when rolling, the "+" fits nice and the "-" is just too slack. So I installed the "+" and on my ride I still notice a bit of creaking that I heard when my DU bushing was wearing out. Do I need to install the "++" and then expect it to "break-in"? I greased it as recommended & I do have the bolt torqued to Mfgr spec, so I am thinking that the "++" & break-in is the answer....

In any event, I recommend the RWC needle bearings to anyone with a 2012 or earlier DU Bushing setup. I understand Fox has their new 2013 polymer bushing setup but it is on back order with no estimated date of arrival and I've never been a believer in bushing technology anyway,


----------



## future9398 (Dec 12, 2012)

hi chris, i love your bearing set, but seems like my Santa cruz TRc can't found in model chart. i like to buy shock needle bearing and pivot suspension Enduro MAX bearing. can you please help me up?btw: i sent a mail to enduro already. regards


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Cutbert said:


> ...So I installed the "+" and on my ride I still notice a bit of creaking that I heard when my DU bushing was wearing out. Do I need to install the "++" and then expect it to "break-in"? I greased it as recommended & I do have the bolt torqued to Mfgr spec, so I am thinking that the "++" & break-in is the answer....


Thanks for the very positive report on the improved performance. As for your question, I think you have the right inner ring already selected. If you can pick up the bike by the seat and feel no play, I would call that good. I don't like the way you described the "indexing" with the "++" inner ring. That sounds a bit on the tight side to me. I'm not sure what to tell you about the creaking you described. That's not a sound normally expected from our needle bearing kits. Even if you had installed the "-" inner ring and had a loose fit, you would feel some play, but I would not expect creaking. I wonder if something else might be producing the sound.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

future9398 said:


> hi chris, i love your bearing set, but seems like my Santa cruz TRc can't found in model chart. i like to buy shock needle bearing and pivot suspension Enduro MAX bearing. can you please help me up?btw: i sent a mail to enduro already. regards


We need to add that to the chart! Santa Cruz has been very consistent with shock mounting hardware sizes for the last couple of years. The NBKRWC2185 is the correct kit for the swing link end of the shock. It fits the other end, too, but that end has very little rotation so changing it would be more for cosmetic purposes than any real performance gain.

I'm not sure on the pivot bearings! Don't have that one in our database yet.


----------



## future9398 (Dec 12, 2012)

thanks chris. how about the VPP bearing kit for TRc? do RWC got this part of replacement?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

future9398 said:


> thanks chris. how about the VPP bearing kit for TRc? do RWC got this part of replacement?


If you have the zerk fitting for greasing the bearings, those bearings should be the 7902-1ZS-MAX. They have a metal shield on one side and are open on the other size. We have them available individually on this page: ENDURO MAX BEARINGS: ULTIMATE SUSPENSION PIVOT BEARINGS!


----------



## Cutbert (Jul 26, 2010)

*Creaking needle bearings*



Chris2fur said:


> Thanks for the very positive report on the improved performance. As for your question, I think you have the right inner ring already selected. If you can pick up the bike by the seat and feel no play, I would call that good. I don't like the way you described the "indexing" with the "++" inner ring. That sounds a bit on the tight side to me. I'm not sure what to tell you about the creaking you described. That's not a sound normally expected from our needle bearing kits. Even if you had installed the "-" inner ring and had a loose fit, you would feel some play, but I would not expect creaking. I wonder if something else might be producing the sound.


Chris, I checked it further today. turns out a little grime inside my seat post/clamp assembly that was causing the creaking. Sorry for that, I thought I had it perfectly clean. Still a happy customer with the needle bearings and my Enduro fork seals!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Cutbert said:


> Chris, I checked it further today. turns out a little grime inside my seat post/clamp assembly that was causing the creaking. Sorry for that, I thought I had it perfectly clean. Still a happy customer with the needle bearings and my Enduro fork seals!


Ha-ha. Those creaks are hard to track down, but they often end up seatpost/saddle related. Glad all is sorted.


----------



## future9398 (Dec 12, 2012)

thanks, chris. i got my answer. my friend's Specialized Camber Expert 2012 , also not found in RWC chart . may i ask you what model of needle bearing kit should him buy for his shock?
regards


----------



## future9398 (Dec 12, 2012)

thanks chris, i got my answer. my friend's Specialized Camber Expert 2012 also found in RWC chart. may i ask you what model of needle bearing kit should he buy for his shock?
regards


----------



## Noclutch (Jun 20, 2010)

To anyone in the know regarding replacing the DU with the RWC needle bearing:

I know RWC makes tools for replacing extracting the DU and pressing in the needle bearing, but do most machine shops have the _*right*_ piloted fitting to press the bearing in, or would they likely be "winging it", albeit with a fancy press??:skep:


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Noclutch said:


> To anyone in the know regarding replacing the DU with the RWC needle bearing:
> 
> I know RWC makes tools for replacing extracting the DU and pressing in the needle bearing, but do most machine shops have the _*right*_ piloted fitting to press the bearing in, or would they likely be "winging it", albeit with a fancy press??:skep:


If a machine shop can't sort that out, then they aren't much of a machine shop. All the good ones do far more complicated fitments most days.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

future9398 said:


> thanks, chris. i got my answer. my friend's Specialized Camber Expert 2012 , also not found in RWC chart . may i ask you what model of needle bearing kit should him buy for his shock?
> regards


Sorry! Forgot I hadn't answered this... I'm pretty sure you need the NBKRWC1575 for the rear (chainstay) shock mount. 99% sure and am in the process of verifying to eliminate the 1% of doubt.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Dougal said:


> If a machine shop can't sort that out, then they aren't much of a machine shop. All the good ones do far more complicated fitments most days.


Yeah, what he said. Noclutch, definitely save on the tools if they are doing the job for you.


----------



## Noclutch (Jun 20, 2010)

Thanks for the replies Chris and Dougal- I don't anticipate doing this often at all, and the LBS's in my (red)neck of the woods probably have never replaced a DU, let alone with a bearing ( they send out air chamber services....), thus I was considering a machine shop.But if their minimum labor charge is too much I guess I be placing another order to Chris.

I found in my garage a 14.86 mm OD socket (a 10mm KTM tool pack hex drive for the motoheads out there) that would be fine? for the DU extraction, but would still need the right tool/fitting or someone else to press in the bearing without goobering it.


----------



## future9398 (Dec 12, 2012)

thanks Chris, waiting for your last 1 % sure.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

future9398 said:


> thanks Chris, waiting for your last 1 % sure.


Wow. That last 1% is a bear. It actually takes our NBKRWC2540.


----------



## future9398 (Dec 12, 2012)

yes, i already place my order. thanks chris


----------



## Noclutch (Jun 20, 2010)

I just replaced my RDOs worn upper DU with RWCs needle bearing...and WOW! This such a functional upgrade!
The slop is gone but more importantly the decrease in stiction is very noticeable even when cycling the suspension by hand in my living room workshop. It will be interesting if I can objectively discern the difference on trail junk. And a bit of ano bling don't hurt either 

Thanks Chris :thumbsup:


----------



## mudncrud (May 6, 2010)

*Nbkrwc2185*

Any idea when you will have the NBKRWC2185 needle bearing kits in stock? I would like to order a bottom bracket and the needle bearing adapter kit at the same time to save shipping. I am building up a new bike.

thank you

EDIT
RWC already returned my email. They have black in stock, red is out of stock but they can make more in a day if anyone wants them. I decided to go with black since I might change frames in two years or so.


----------



## Stumpjumpy (Sep 7, 2011)

Just installed rwc needles on my RZ120 c'dale.

Very nice upgrade in smooth slop-free small bump sensitivity.


----------



## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

Any idea if any of the kits could be adapted to fit a 2011 Rocky Mountain Element Team RSL?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Cheers! said:


> Any idea if any of the kits could be adapted to fit a 2011 Rocky Mountain Element Team RSL?


The span (22.20mm) is no problem. However, the database indicates 10mm hardware. That's a problem. Also, pics look like bearings are incorporated at the swing link/shock juncture. I'm thinking it's not going to be possible...


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Any suggestion for a 50mm one for my Nicolai Helius? All I see is a 43.75mm one, then 54mm...


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Axe said:


> Any suggestion for a 50mm one for my Nicolai Helius? All I see is a 43.75mm one, then 54mm...


What color do you want and can you wait a couple of weeks? We can modify some 54mm kits...


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> What color do you want and can you wait a couple of weeks? We can modify some 54mm kits...


I really did not think about color, but the bike is blue. It rides fine, no urgency, but compared with your needle bearing kits in my Rotwild and my wife's Yeti bikes, stiction is there. I feel I may be loosing some of CCDBA goodness.

I thought about using spacers, but 6mm worth of them, not sure. You recommend 4mm max. I would have preferred the inner axle to make contact.. I will also order 15.9mm one for the other eyelet..


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Axe said:


> I really did not think about color, but the bike is blue. It rides fine, no urgency, but compared with your needle bearing kits in my Rotwild and my wife's Yeti bikes, stiction is there. I feel I may be loosing some of CCDBA goodness.
> 
> I thought about using spacers, but 6mm worth of them, not sure. You recommend 4mm max. I would have preferred the inner axle to make contact.. I will also order 15.9mm one for the other eyelet..


If you are running the DB Air, the shock eyelets are 14.7mm. That's too small to run the needle bearings. However, you can have a machine shop take them out to 15.05mm. There is plenty of excess material engineered into the eyelet, so there is no worry of hurting the shock. In addition, it will not make your shock only compatible with our needle bearing kit. It will make it compatible with any and all Fox compatible systems.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> If you are running the DB Air, the shock eyelets are 14.7mm. That's too small to run the needle bearings. However, you can have a machine shop take them out to 15.05mm. There is plenty of excess material engineered into the eyelet, so there is no worry of hurting the shock. In addition, it will not make your shock only compatible with our needle bearing kit. It will make it compatible with any and all Fox compatible systems.


Gah... :madman: I did not even notice that when buying it last year, all I saw was that it used standard size reducers.. Why would they do that, dammit.. And I can't even use my bag of DP4 bushings..

...will bug you if I decide on the surgery.. thanks.


----------



## devojrx7 (Feb 12, 2011)

What size kit would I need for my DYD RT2 shock on my Cannondale Trigger 29er?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

devojrx7 said:


> What size kit would I need for my DYD RT2 shock on my Cannondale Trigger 29er?


I been trying to get to the bottom of this for a while. I can't find a specific listing for the Trigger. However, every Cannondale frame with a DYAD shock listed in the Fox database has a 15.75mm mounting span. If this is also true with your frame, which is likely, you would need NBKRWC1575. You could verify this measurement yourself if you have some calipers.


----------



## sand0kan (Jun 6, 2010)

Chris2fur what kit is needed for the new Niner Rip RDO?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

sand0kan said:


> Chris2fur what kit is needed for the new Niner Rip RDO?


Niner has consistently used the 21.85mm standard so our NBKRWC2185 is the one to use (at rockers--bottom is stationary).


----------



## Iamwarthog (May 30, 2006)

*My experience with RWC and the needle bearing kit.*

I had ordered a needle bearing kit for my Jamis XCR, but when it arrived I realized that it wouldn't fit due to the bike having proprietary shock mounting bolts. I called Chris at RWC to ask if there was an adapter that would allow me to fit it to my bike, but there wasn't. He offered me the choice of either returning it for a refund, or I could e-mail him some photos of the stock hardware and how the shock mounted along with a few measurements, and he would try to make up something so I could use it. I choose the latter. He e-mailed me the following day to say he'd have something for me to try as soon as he could. Just over a week later Chris e-mailed to tell me he had something made up and would mail it the next morning. Two days later it was in my mail box. Chris followed up with me to make sure everything fit properly, which it did. Needless to say, I was/am very impressed with the level of customer service at RWC. 
As far as my experience with the product itself? Well, on this bike I had previously replaced the stock Fox RP2 with a Rock Shox Monarch RT-3, which was a big improvement, but it still didn't work quite as well as I wanted. If I set it up to work well on the big stuff and have enough support through corners and g-outs, it was overly harsh on small choppy stuff and would kind of hang up to easily on square edged bumps. If I set it up to address that, then it would wallow into it's mid-stroke too easily. Adding the needle bearing at the swing link end of the shock took care of the harshness and square edged hang up. Something I didn't expect was, since there is so much less friction as the suspension articulates, I actually needed to add another 10 psi and 1 more click of rebound damping. Consequently, the mid-stroke support is better and it even feels a little more composed on the bigger bumps as well. Everything just feels noticeably smoother and more controlled. Great product from a great company. Thanks!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Iamwarthog said:


> ....Consequently, the mid-stroke support is better and it even feels a little more composed on the bigger bumps as well. Everything just feels noticeably smoother and more controlled. Great product from a great company. Thanks!


Thanks very much!


----------



## MTBurned (Oct 10, 2010)

Hi Chris, is there a distributor for your products in Europe or even better in Greece.
Thanks!


----------



## runbaileyrun (Mar 22, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> I been trying to get to the bottom of this for a while. I can't find a specific listing for the Trigger. However, every Cannondale frame with a DYAD shock listed in the Fox database has a 15.75mm mounting span. If this is also true with your frame, which is likely, you would need NBKRWC1575. You could verify this measurement yourself if you have some calipers.


Any update on this? I am looking to buy a needle bearing kit for my Trigger 29er 1, and was looking to confirm that the NBKRWC1575 is the correct kit I need to order. Any shims needed too?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

runbaileyrun said:


> Any update on this? I am looking to buy a needle bearing kit for my Trigger 29er 1, and was looking to confirm that the NBKRWC1575 is the correct kit I need to order. Any shims needed too?


For the Trigger I'm showing 22.00 mounting span on the 29er aluminum and 15.75 mounting span on the carbon 26er. So, for you, the question is whether to go with the 21.85 kit or the 22.20 mounting kit. Checking the actual span with calipers would be best....


----------



## runbaileyrun (Mar 22, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> For the Trigger I'm showing 22.00 mounting span on the 29er aluminum and 15.75 mounting span on the carbon 26er. So, for you, the question is whether to go with the 21.85 kit or the 22.20 mounting kit. Checking the actual span with calipers would be best....


Great - thanks for the update. I need an excuse to buy some callipers, so I'll check and report back later.


----------



## runbaileyrun (Mar 22, 2009)

Chris2fur said:


> For the Trigger I'm showing 22.00 mounting span on the 29er aluminum and 15.75 mounting span on the carbon 26er. So, for you, the question is whether to go with the 21.85 kit or the 22.20 mounting kit. Checking the actual span with calipers would be best....


22.05 mm measured on mine. So that makes it the 21.85mm plus a spacer or two.


----------



## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Or squeezing in the 22.2?


----------



## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

*Inner races - how tight should they be?*

Hi Chris,

I've got your needle bearing kits installed in the top shock eye on two of my bikes for about 3 months now. When initially installed I selected the + size races as the ++ seemed just a bit too tight and made the bearing feel sticky and a bit rough. With the + size there was a tiny bit of play but this seemed to be the best of the two choices. Today I was taking a look at both bikes and noticed the play was a bit more than I would like so I decided to again try the ++ size and found they actually fit, still very tight, but no longer making the bearing feel rough. I realize its probably a bit of a judgement call, but in general is it better for the bearing longevity to have the inner race a bit tight rather than a bit loose?

The other concern I have, on the bike with the higher mileage on the needle bearing kit (about 300 miles), the bearing was actually a slight bit notchy even before I started playing with the races. I added some lube and got the needles moving freely again, but I'm wondering if this is cause for concern?

Regards,

Karl


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

kwarwick said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> I've got your needle bearing kits installed in the top shock eye on two of my bikes for about 3 months now. When initially installed I selected the + size races as the ++ seemed just a bit too tight and made the bearing feel sticky and a bit rough. With the + size there was a tiny bit of play but this seemed to be the best of the two choices. Today I was taking a look at both bikes and noticed the play was a bit more than I would like so I decided to again try the ++ size and found they actually fit, still very tight, but no longer making the bearing feel rough. I realize its probably a bit of a judgement call, but in general is it better for the bearing longevity to have the inner race a bit tight rather than a bit loose?
> 
> ...


Hi, Karl: Since your situation was originally between the two inner ring sizes, probably a bit of grease displacement made the difference. If the larger inner ring fits, I would go with that. As far as having to grease and spin the one bearing, I would not worry about it. As long as no physical wear was evident on the inner ring, no damage was done.


----------



## akmal_ueb (Aug 23, 2013)

Hi Chris,

I have scott voltage fr 2011. According to the shock size chart on your site i should get NBKRWC2185, but based on scott manual the bushing size is 22.2 x 8 mm. So what should i get? Can you help me with this? Thanks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

akmal_ueb said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> I have scott voltage fr 2011. According to the shock size chart on your site i should get NBKRWC2185, but based on scott manual the bushing size is 22.2 x 8 mm. So what should i get? Can you help me with this? Thanks.


When the manufacturer provides a listing, it's usually more reliable than the chart (which is based on a Fox data base). Go with the NBKRWC2220.


----------



## akmal_ueb (Aug 23, 2013)

Ok, thanks Chris.


----------



## RockyMountainSlayer7 (Aug 24, 2013)

Hello Fellow Mtbr's 

I have a Rocky Mountain Slayer 2013 model fitted with the standard Rock Shox Monarch RC3 . Has anybody fitted these bearing kits to one of these ? I searched and couldn't find the answer for this model.

The lower bush system which appears to be half the thickness of the upper bush seems to always loosen off so there ends up with a small amount of play in that area. The owner of IBC { Marty } guy who I purchased the bike from and also a 2013 Slayer rider found that his new one also developed this play here very quickly. 

It's not a huge problem , just a little pain in the ass to have to keep re-checking this pivot after every ride. My 2011 Remedy 9 never need this checked in a year of riding. Saying that I didn't ride the Trek half as fast over stuff as the Rocky, It's been a lot quicker bike over the same trails. 

Also Chris do you have an agent here in Australia or Hong Kong which I will be taking the Rocky too in a few weeks. 

Regards 

Adam


----------



## cecald (Feb 17, 2010)

Chris, I've got a tallboy LTc and was wondering if I also need to order any shims to fit both top and bottom shock mounts? Appreciate any assistance as I haven't found anything by searching.


----------



## Shadow Wolf (Mar 28, 2013)

*2013 Devinci Atlas Carbon w/Monarch RT3*

Chris:

Please advise which kit(s) is needed for a Monarch RT3 on a 2013 Devinci Atlas Carbon, and the quantity of spacers, if any, that would be needed.

I suspect that I will only need one NB kit for the upper rocker mount, but I defer to your judgement.

Thanks!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Shadow Wolf said:


> Chris:
> 
> Please advise which kit(s) is needed for a Monarch RT3 on a 2013 Devinci Atlas Carbon, and the quantity of spacers, if any, that would be needed.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are correct about just changing the upper rocker mount. Kit number NBKRWC4115 is a match--no shims needed.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

cecald said:


> Chris, I've got a tallboy LTc and was wondering if I also need to order any shims to fit both top and bottom shock mounts? Appreciate any assistance as I haven't found anything by searching.


Only need to change the swing link end since no rotation happens in the top tube mount end of the shock eyelet. Kit NBKRWC2185 is what you need and no shims are required.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

RockyMountainSlayer7 said:


> Hello Fellow Mtbr's
> 
> I have a Rocky Mountain Slayer 2013 model fitted with the standard Rock Shox Monarch RC3 . Has anybody fitted these bearing kits to one of these ? I searched and couldn't find the answer for this model.
> 
> ...


Hi, Adam: I'm not sure our needle bearing kit is solution to this problem. If hardware is loosening up and tightening the hardware gets rid of the play, then something is backing out. If I'm understanding your post correctly, sounds like a need for some Loctite thread locker. Now, if you were to convert the top rocker end to a needle bearing, you would get improved small-bump compliance. Unfortunately, I don't have the measurement for that one. Looks about 30mm, but I would need a measurement between the rocker arms.


----------



## Shadow Wolf (Mar 28, 2013)

Chris2fur said:


> Yes, you are correct about just changing the upper rocker mount. Kit number NBKRWC4115 is a match--no shims needed.


I placed my order today. Thanks for the quick reply!


----------



## rehammer81 (Jun 18, 2010)

Alright, I'm confused. I have the green and blue tools from RWC. Trying to install on DHX Air 5.0. I'm down to the white bushing sleeves that are pressed in as two halves. I don't see how the tools can push them out. They have a lip on them so you can push them through. What am I missing?


Specialized Epic 29
Intense Tracer 29


----------



## rehammer81 (Jun 18, 2010)

Never mind. I figured it out. Didn't realize I had the new polymer bushing style. Is it still worth swaping them out for the needle bearings?

Specialized Epic 29
Intense Tracer 29


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Shadow Wolf said:


> I placed my order today. Thanks for the quick reply!


Thanks!


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

rehammer81 said:


> Never mind. I figured it out. Didn't realize I had the new polymer bushing style. Is it still worth swaping them out for the needle bearings?


It's interesting how DU bushings were always "good enough" until we offered the needle bearing kits. Honestly, I think the new Fox system is a significant improvement over the DU bushings. However, that's not saying a lot because the standard OE DU bushing system is so bad. There is still a significant variation in friction between Fox shocks using the new Fox system because the eyelet tolerances vary from shock to shock. We have addressed this by including three different inner ring OD tolerances in our needle bearing kits. Fox is still "one size fits all" so some shocks have noticeably smoother rotation than DU bushings and others are still really tight. Having said all that, even the very best fitting Fox polymer bushing system is still way behind our needle bearing kits in terms of friction loss. Still, I give credit to Fox for acknowledging the need for improvement.


----------



## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

Chris, any info on the compatibility for the 2013 Norco Sight 3 model?
If you don't have the measurements handy, I can take them.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

shapirus said:


> Chris, any info on the compatibility for the 2013 Norco Sight 3 model?
> If you don't have the measurements handy, I can take them.


Sorry, but we don't have the info on that one. Norco doesn't publish it and we don't have it in our database.


----------



## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

You have a direct link to the Cane Creek eyelet bore service? I'm having trouble navigating your site. Thanks.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Mrwhlr said:


> You have a direct link to the Cane Creek eyelet bore service? I'm having trouble navigating your site. Thanks.


Please email directly about that: [email protected]


----------



## Rey Recinto (Mar 15, 2005)

I was so satisfied with the RWC needle bearings that I installed on my Trance, I just had to get another set for my 5.Spot..

These needle bearings really rock...


----------



## future9398 (Dec 12, 2012)

hi Chris, i own a 2013 santa cruz Blur TRc, i bought two set of pivot bearing(blur TRC) for replacement last month, but turn out the upper link bearing is correct, only the vpp lower link bearing doesn't fit to mine . can you please check for me which bearing i should order for the VPP link, my bike still wait for a new replacement bearing for run. thank you


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

future9398 said:


> hi Chris, i own a 2013 santa cruz Blur TRc, i bought two set of pivot bearing(blur TRC) for replacement last month, but turn out the upper link bearing is correct, only the vpp lower link bearing doesn't fit to mine . can you please check for me which bearing i should order for the VPP link, my bike still wait for a new replacement bearing for run. thank you


OK, sorting this out via email.


----------



## future9398 (Dec 12, 2012)

thanks for your quick reply. i also sent back my problem via email. thanks


----------



## mikethepoolman (Feb 13, 2013)

*Shock eye needle bearing*

Hi Chris at_ REAL WORLD CYCLING_,
after a few years of frustration and continually changing out the sheared 8mm bolt -and upgrading to harder and harder bolts (e.g. 12.9 alloy)- and cracking the Specialized Hollow Link- I came across this thread. I was so excited to see there is an alternative to the Specialized / Fox stock reducer pin- until I found its out of stock on your site.

I've spent HOURS on the computer learning about the issue and your consistent posts show me you care and are highly competent.

My bike: 2006 Specialized S-Works Stumpjumper FSR.

You know all this but I'll post it for any other victims with the same issue:
Fox makes two replacement parts: Pin style: 803-00-119 , 2 piece top hat style: 803-03-034. 
Their spread sheets: http://service.foxracingshox.com/consumers/Content/ReducerSpec.xls (my bike is on line 5081) 
and http://service.foxracingshox.com/consumers/Content/Resources/spreadsheets/Reducer_Specs_2011.xls (mine is line 6255).

It looks like your replacement part is NBKRWC1575.

Please help. Do I have any alternatives (and yes, a newer bike is in my future but I've got to get this working first)?


----------



## future9398 (Dec 12, 2012)

for those who consider buy bearing from RWC, here is the reply from them via email.

_Hi, Hiew:

No, we will send them to you free of charge. It's our mistake. We will correct the database and change the kit as well.

Best regards,

Chris Streeter

Real World Cycling, LLC_

]
*(very responsibility of after sales service)* thanks Chris.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mikethepoolman said:


> It looks like your replacement part is NBKRWC1575.
> 
> Please help. Do I have any alternatives (and yes, a newer bike is in my future but I've got to get this working first)?


We sold a bunch of that size over the weekend. We will have more in stock today or tomorrow.


----------



## mikethepoolman (Feb 13, 2013)

I think I love you.


----------



## mikethepoolman (Feb 13, 2013)

Thanks Chris. I'll keep checking back for stock and order a couple.
And, do I need the shims with my setup?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

mikethepoolman said:


> Thanks Chris. I'll keep checking back for stock and order a couple.
> And, do I need the shims with my setup?


Back in stock and no shims should be required for your application. Thanks for your patience!


----------



## Shadow Wolf (Mar 28, 2013)

Chris:

Which kit is needed for a:

2010 Gary Fisher Superfly 100 w/ Fox Float RP23

One kit for the bottom eyelet only or both eyelets? Shims required?

Thanks!


----------



## SingleTrackHound (Jul 29, 2003)

Chris,

I just got installing one of your needle bearing kit that I had bought when it first came out two or three years ago. Back then I had bought it for different bike but I removed it when I noticed the play from needle bearing kit when I pick the bike up with saddle. I just reinstalled the Fox DU bushing setup since it was new and didnt have any play. Back then I was following this thread I remember you mentioning to others with similar issue that the play in needle bearing kit is normal. Is this true today? Today I just installed that kit on 2012 El Guapo on the lower shock mount and again there is play there which I didnt have with Rock Shox DU bushing/reducer setup that I removed. I really want to give this thing a chance but play is very annoying and feels just like worn DU bushing. Btw, I have tried contacting via phone # and email from your web site and I never a response.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

SingleTrackHound said:


> Chris,
> 
> I just got installing one of your needle bearing kit that I had bought when it first came out two or three years ago. Back then I had bought it for different bike but I removed it when I noticed the play from needle bearing kit when I pick the bike up with saddle....


When the kits first came out, they included one inner ring (hardened axle that goes in the needle bearing). The kits now include 3 inner rings of varying outside diameters. That info is in this thread, but it's getting to be rather long, so you'd really have to comb through to find it. Each shock has a slight variation in eyelet bore diameter due to machining tolerances. The needle bearing cup gets compressed a little more in some applications, a little less in others. Having the three inner rings lets you dial-in the fit after you have pressed the bearing in. All you really need is a complete set of the inner rings and use the one that fits best. Which kit do you have?


----------



## SingleTrackHound (Jul 29, 2003)

Chris2fur said:


> Which kit do you have?


NBKRWC22

Shock lower mounting bolt is M8 so I using the metal inner ring which seems to be perfect fit for the bolt. There is another inner ring inside the package which I am not using. It seems to be made out of hard plastic...my guess it is for M6 bolt?

Anyways the one I have only came with two inner sleeves (as mentioned above), needle bearing, and two spacers with your company logo "RWC".

I also have two other needle bearing kit (2 quantities of NBKRWC40) I bought around the same time but those also have so much play I took them right back out.

Yes trying to comb through 30 pages is bit overwhelming.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

SingleTrackHound said:


> NBKRWC22
> 
> Shock lower mounting bolt is M8 so I using the metal inner ring which seems to be perfect fit for the bolt. There is another inner ring inside the package which I am not using. It seems to be made out of hard plastic...my guess it is for M6 bolt?
> 
> ...


When talking about needle bearings, the "axle" is called the Inner Ring. This is what the needle rollers contact. The only "sleeve" we used is the "reducer sleeve" to run with a 6mm bolt. I'm only clarifying because if you call the inner ring a "sleeve" we won't be communicating clearly with each other.

So, the tolerances we are talking about only have to do with the fit inside the bearing where the needle rollers contact the inner ring. The bolt fit really is not a toleranced fit. This is because the job of the bolt is to pull the mounting members together to clamp down on the inner ring. In other words, properly torqueing the bolt makes the rocker arms and the inner ring one unit. The bolt does not bear the shear load.

Here are the instructions to make it clear how the inner rings are used:

1) Remove DU Bushing from shock eyelet.
2) Install cup and needle roller assembly into shock eye using proper installation tool.
3) Carefully guide the "++" tolerance inner ring into the installed needle bearing. 
4) If the "++" tolerance inner ring fits inside the rollers and you can rotate it without any binding, proceed to step 5. If the "++" inner ring does not fit inside the rollers or feels very tight or rough, work your way "down" the other inner rings (proceed from "++" to "+" to "-") until you find the perfect fit.
5) Install the spacer/seal assemblies on each side of the inner ring. Lightly grease the seal surfaces.
6) Slide the shock (w/installed needle bearing assembly) between the frame mounts and hand tighten the hardware. 
7) While compressing the suspension, properly torque the shock hardware to frame manufacturer's specification.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

SingleTrackHound said:


> NBKRWC22


We have NBKRWC2185 and NBKRWC2220. Can you verify if the span is 21.85mm or 22.20mm?

Also, just want to clarify that a needle bearing setup, even with the properly matched inner ring, will never be as tight a fit as a bushing. There must be enough clearance to allow the needle elements to roll. The needle bearing kits are to improve small bump compliance and prevent wear not only to the DU bushing, but also to rocker arms and frame mounts. Some of the OE bushings are so tight that the reducers rotate at the rocker arms instead of inside the bushing:


----------



## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

I have the Giant bearing Tool kit.

Can I use it to remove the bushing from rock shox rt3 and install the rwc bearing?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Dictatorsaurus said:


> I have the Giant bearing Tool kit.
> 
> Can I use it to remove the bushing from rock shox rt3 and install the rwc bearing?


Hi. I'm pretty sure the guides in the Giant tool kit will be for the cartridge bearings in the frame pivots and not sized for the shock eyelets. The proper tools for the job are available here: DU Bushing and Needle Bearing Shock Tool


----------



## future9398 (Dec 12, 2012)

hi chris, i just get an ibis HDR 650, do you provide any stainless steel bearing kit for the upper and lower link?


----------



## rodmccrady (May 31, 2010)

I sent email but didn't hear back after a week. I've turned off my spam filter, so maybe that will help. I thought I'd try getting my questions answered here:

I'm looking for shock needle bearings and frame pivot bearings for my 2005 Stumpjumper FSR 120.

I bought the shock needle bearing from you before, and I ordered kit #NBLRWC-1575. I see this number on your web page, but the page doesn't list it for 04-05 Stumpjumpers. I want to be sure to get the right bearing and washers.

I got frame pivot bearings apparently from distributor BTI, but the box says "Enduro Bearings" and has BK-5615. The part number I see now on the web site for this bike is SBKSPE4. Is this the same kit with a different part #?

Thanks for you help


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

rodmccrady said:


> I sent email but didn't hear back after a week. I've turned off my spam filter, so maybe that will help. I thought I'd try getting my questions answered here:
> 
> I'm looking for shock needle bearings and frame pivot bearings for my 2005 Stumpjumper FSR 120.
> 
> ...


I'm 90% sure this one also takes the NBKRWC1575. There is a very narrow gap in the center of the rear link that the shock slides into. There is only room on each side of the shock for the narrowest of spacers. You should be able to confirm this visually. At RWC we assemble all our own kits so the Enduro SKU numbers don't match and we don't work off of them. Here's what's in our SBKSPE4:

(4) 6800 MAX 
(2) 6802 MAX 
(4) 688 MAX

Hope that helps!


----------



## crohnsy (Sep 11, 2009)

Hi, bringing this thread back from the grave... I've got a 2015 Fuel EX 29 coming to me and am interested in this needle bearing kit. I looked on rwc.com and couldn't find a kit listed.. Is there an option for my bike?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

crohnsy said:


> Hi, bringing this thread back from the grave... I've got a 2015 Fuel EX 29 coming to me and am interested in this needle bearing kit. I looked on rwc.com and couldn't find a kit listed.. Is there an option for my bike?


Looks like that will come with the DRCV shock. As you probably know, that has the auxiliary air chamber on the top and so has special mounting in the rocker arms. That mounting includes bearings at the rocker arm connection, so you do not need any conversion at the top. The bottom mount is "Full Floater" which means the lower mounts are extensions of the chain stays. There is considerable rotation that takes place in the lower mount of the shock, so a kit is recommended for that end. The correct kit would be NBKRWC3988.


----------



## Iamwarthog (May 30, 2006)

crohnsy said:


> Hi, bringing this thread back from the grave... I've got a 2015 Fuel EX 29 coming to me and am interested in this needle bearing kit. I looked on rwc.com and couldn't find a kit listed.. Is there an option for my bike?


I ordered the kit listed for my bike a couple of years ago, and it just plain didn't fit my bike (it was a Jamis and used a weird bolt set up). I contacted Chris at RWC and he asked me to send him photos and measurements comparing what he sent me to what my bike needed. A few days later he mailed me fittings that he obviously had made custom based on my photos and measurements with a note that said, "Let me know if this works or not." It fit and worked perfectly. Maybe the best customer service I've ever had from any company before or since. Also, the needle bearing made a significant difference. Even more than I was hoping it would. I can't recommend this upgrade highly enough.


----------



## saga (Feb 12, 2005)

Hi Chris. Do you know what I need for a specialized enduro s-works 2003? I know it's m6 and m8 bolt size but what about the reducers/spacers length. There's no listing on your website for this bike.

Any help much appreciated as I want to order the needle hardware upgrade.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

saga said:


> Hi Chris. Do you know what I need for a specialized enduro s-works 2003? I know it's m6 and m8 bolt size but what about the reducers/spacers length. There's no listing on your website for this bike.
> 
> Any help much appreciated as I want to order the needle hardware upgrade.


Hi, Saga:

NBKRWC2185 for the back end of the shock (mounts right inside the link). I would not change the front mount. Just to be sure, please see if your link-to-shock spacing looks like this:


----------



## ahmad22 (Nov 1, 2015)

Hi Chris
whats the correct size for my giant reign 2 2012 and the shock is Fox rp2 ? i think it only needs RWC kit body .


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

ahmad22 said:


> Hi Chris
> whats the correct size for my giant reign 2 2012 and the shock is Fox rp2 ? i think it only needs RWC kit body .


Hi. Please use this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...earing-kit-awesome-998670-4.html#post12452086

It's more up to date and actually calls the kit by its proper name (RWC Bearing kit, not Enduro kit).

But, since you are here, your Reign uses NBKRWC2185. Just the rocker arm end gets changed. The lower part is incorporated in the Maestro system and is part of the link pin.


----------



## Wantax (Jan 26, 2010)

Hi guys i have a new dt swiss x313 odl carbon shock, do you know if i can upgrade to the enduro bushing kit? It seens that the dt swiss needs their special bushing kit with the balls joints for prevent the anodized wear coming from lateral torsions

I have been using the enduro kit in my old monarch rt3 (22.2mm*8mm) and really noticed a better feeling of the suspension when i installed it from the rigid kit

Any opinions? Thank you in advance


----------



## Bryan Kaiser (Mar 27, 2014)

Hello, Chris. can you help confirm what kit is needed on a Lapierre Zesty 327 2014 bike? Thanks


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Bryan Kaiser said:


> Hello, Chris. can you help confirm what kit is needed on a Lapierre Zesty 327 2014 bike? Thanks


The Zesty runs a yoke and bearings similar (but different) to a Specialized Stumpjumper. It has no rotation at the lower (sideways) shock eyelet and almost none at the top eyelet.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Bryan Kaiser said:


> Hello, Chris. can you help confirm what kit is needed on a Lapierre Zesty 327 2014 bike? Thanks


Please check out my reply to your question on this more relevant thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...earing-kit-awesome-998670-5.html#post12540187 Thanks!


----------



## Squashman (Jul 7, 2013)

Shadow Wolf said:


> Chris:
> 
> Which kit is needed for a:
> 
> ...


Shadow Wolf, did you ever end up putting these on your 2010 Gary Fisher Superfly 100? Thinking of trying them out on my son's.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


----------



## Strafer (Jun 7, 2004)

Just serviced the rear linkages on my 5spot and had to replace the RWC bearings with the original bushings.
The needle bearings were completely rusted frozen.
Granted they were on there for almost 2 years, but should this have happened?
How often are you supposed to take it apart and regrease?


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Strafer said:


> Just serviced the rear linkages on my 5spot and had to replace the RWC bearings with the original bushings.
> The needle bearings were completely rusted frozen.
> Granted they were on there for almost 2 years, but should this have happened?
> How often are you supposed to take it apart and regrease?


That's pretty rare. If you ride in dry conditions you can easily go two years. If you ride in wet conditions, you would have to establish a schedule through trial and error. Staring say with once a month and extending longer if it looks good. You could also pack with a heavy marine grease for wet riding. The cup and needle roller is available separately for about $6.00 so I hope you did not toss the kit just because the bearing was corroded.


----------



## Strafer (Jun 7, 2004)

I ride in dry condition, so was surprised it was completed rusted with no sign of grease.
I did toss the whole thing in trash, but maybe I will take it out and give new bearings another go with marine grease.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Strafer said:


> I ride in dry condition, so was surprised it was completed rusted with no sign of grease.
> I did toss the whole thing in trash, but maybe I will take it out and give new bearings another go with marine grease.


Definitely weird. Hard to understand how something can rust without moisture. No pressure washing, right?


----------



## Strafer (Jun 7, 2004)

No, only time I wash my bike is when I wash my car and just use wet brush then rinse off with misty spray.
Maybe my profuse perspiration leaked down.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Strafer said:


> No, only time I wash my bike is when I wash my car and just use wet brush then rinse off with misty spray.
> Maybe my profuse perspiration leaked down.


I did not think of that, but it's possible!


----------



## DawnVoyager (Jan 28, 2017)

*New Manitou shocks may fit the needle bearings.*



'size said:


> it will work on any shock that uses the 1/2" (12.7mm) eyelet standard. unfortunately manitou uses 12mm eyelets so no go.


Apparently, Manitou has capitulated and moved from 12mm to the industry standard imperial half-inch (12.7mm) eye. Newer Manitou shocks (e.g. Radium and McLeod) apparently feature this size eye, so theoretically could be made to work with the needle bearings. (Chris2Fur might be able to confirm).


----------



## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Did anyone try these on a suntour shock? I'm about to purchase a Duair (almost the same design as McLeod, just even better in that it uses just preloaded shim stack for the rebound also  ) and contemplating buying these https://www.bike24.com/p2223514.html?q=shock+bearing
as they are just a bit more expensive than the stock bushings, bud couldn't find any info on the suntour eye spec, just some that everyone is all over the place lol


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Did anyone try these on a suntour shock? I'm about to purchase a Duair (almost the same design as McLeod, just even better in that it uses just preloaded shim stack for the rebound also  ) and contemplating buying these https://www.bike24.com/p2223514.html?q=shock+bearing
> as they are just a bit more expensive than the stock bushings, bud couldn't find any info on the suntour eye spec, just some that everyone is all over the place lol


Hey piciu256. This thread is much more current: https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-susp...-shock-needle-bearing-kit-awesome-998670.html

The cheaper kit you linked to a knock off of our kit. ...by our bearing supplier, no less. Instead of proper spacers they just stack seals on the ends. Also, our kit includes several axles of varying Outside Diameters to cover the normal tolerance range of shock eyelet bores. Without these several options, it's unlikely you will get a good fit between the needle rollers and axle (proper term: "inner ring"). I have an email in to Suntour and will let you know what I find out.


----------



## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Wow, who would have though lol, thanks for the insight. Might still try these as they are so cheap and I have to buy the standard bushings anyway, so 12€+ 10€ shipping hurts somehow less than 4€+10€ shipping  But will see, mayby RockShox bushings will fit so I don't have to buy them just yet.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Wow, who would have though lol, thanks for the insight. Might still try these as they are so cheap and I have to buy the standard bushings anyway, so 12€+ 10€ shipping hurts somehow less than 4€+10€ shipping  But will see, mayby RockShox bushings will fit so I don't have to buy them just yet.


The Suntour shock eyelets are the 15mm standard and are compatible with the RWC needle bearing kits.


----------



## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Still gonna go with the "knock off" bearing kit, with the 15$ shipping your kit gets really expensive, for just one eyelet, also considering these are the same bearing- your kit seems very overpriced to me, anodised aluminium spacers are a nice touch for someone with butt loads of cash, but they are definitely not needed, all they do is locate the shock side to side so a piece of plastic like in the knock off kit would do. Also, the knock off kit is offered in the 24x8mm size I need for my frame, while I don't see such option on your site.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Still gonna go with the "knock off" bearing kit, with the 15$ shipping your kit gets really expensive, for just one eyelet, also considering these are the same bearing- your kit seems very overpriced to me, anodised aluminium spacers are a nice touch for someone with butt loads of cash, but they are definitely not needed, all they do is locate the shock side to side so a piece of plastic like in the knock off kit would do. Also, the knock off kit is offered in the 24x8mm size I need for my frame, while I don't see such option on your site.


Yep. Well, that's kind of the point--the supplier can of course undercut those he supplies, making them look overpriced--even before any additional parts are added (not just spacers, but additional inner rings). Our kits are also compatible with 6mm or 8mm hardware which requires another part. Maybe it would make more sense to break that part out. Anyway, I can't expect you to get involved or care about the business ethics of the situation. That is literally my problem. As it turns out, I'm here to give support either way. Hopefully the single inner ring supplied with that kit happens to fit well with your shock bore tolerances. BTW we can fit most spans with the sizes we have along with stainless shim kits for those spans that fall in-between. What frame is this for?


----------



## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

The frame is Kross Soil, don't think you ever heard of it. Using spacers to get it to fit seems to me too much like a bodge for such an expensive product.
Also, I might have worded it wrong, I meant that the kit could have been made cheaper, with no side effects, but you went for the bling factor, I guess rightfully so  
If I didn't want to pay anyone for this, I could as well just source some needle bearings myself, just the seal would be an issue, hope you understand that 50$ for what it is is way too much for me, I'm only considering it since I'm already changing a shock so I need new mounting hardware, and my upper link rotates almost 90° so I thought I could benefit from it, it's not like I feel a need, just curious to see if the difference is worth while for me, and that I will see even if there will be some play or binding, and if it fits well, even better


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> The frame is Kross Soil, don't think you ever heard of it. Using spacers to get it to fit seems to me too much like a bodge for such an expensive product.
> Also, I might have worded it wrong, I meant that the kit could have been made cheaper, with no side effects, but you went for the bling factor, I guess rightfully so
> If I didn't want to pay anyone for this, I could as well just source some needle bearings myself, just the seal would be an issue, hope you understand that 50$ for what it is is way too much for me, I'm only considering it since I'm already changing a shock so I need new mounting hardware, and my upper link rotates almost 90° so I thought I could benefit from it, it's not like I feel a need, just curious to see if the difference is worth while for me, and that I will see even if there will be some play or binding, and if it fits well, even better


No. Not just bling. Most end users want a perfect fit with no play. Precision was the number one factor with our kit. I'm afraid you could not source your own needle bearing. There is no standard needle bearing that matches shock eyelet bores. You would have had to have a custom bearing manufactured. In addition, every bearing has an inner ring and an outer ring. While it may appear to be an "axle" the inner ring is a hardened steel that has to match the properties of the needle rollers or they will simply eat it for breakfast. So, no, you could not put one of these kits together yourself.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> The frame is Kross Soil, don't think you ever heard of it.


Wow. Very interesting linkage. No doubt there is a lot of rotation inside the upper eyelet. A needle bearing kit will absolutely be noticeable.


----------

