# Any Reason not to Go Full Face?



## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

I'm due for a new helmet, probably have been for a while. Nothing wrong with this one (though it's debatably expired). Predates MIPS.

The last helmet hit pavement at 30 mph and cracked clean through in at least three places. I also am sometimes vitamin D deficient because of a side effect of a medicine, though supplements help that to a degree. Have had a few other minor-ish concussions (the one above was the big one, but no lasting effects, thankfully).

I ride rocky rooty trails that I'd call aggressive xc and climb a good bit. OTB happens a few times a year, often in rick gardens. Other than cost, it's there any reason a light, well vented full face might be a problem? 

Looking at the IXS Trigger with MIPS. Giant vents, 600 to 650 grams. Current half shell is in the high 300 gram range according to a kitchen scale. 

I like my jaw right where it is, and want the extra protection since concussions get progressively worse. I know it'll be a little heavier and maybe a touch hotter, especially on summer climbs.

Anything I'm missing or way off on? Struggling to think of a reason it's not the right choice, but have a nagging doubt because when I started riding 20 years ago only downhill and freeride used FF.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

Get the full face. You can never be too protected, ya know?


----------



## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

I agree with spaightlabs, I recommend getting the full face. I use the Demon United Podium and like it. A little heavier than the IXS, but quite a bit cheaper. Plus you can get 20% off your first order with them.


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

My next helmet will be full face, need to to protect the money maker.😉


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

I know a few XC riders that have scars on their faces or some fake teeth, yet still won't go light FF.
I've been riding one since the MET Parachute came out. Love it. Little warmer on climbs, but just as cool when you're moving.


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

No reason not to be safe. Do what it takes to ride.


----------



## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I’ve posted it in other threads-
Several months back I bought a Bell Super 3R with a removable chin bar, intending to only use the FF part for gnarly stuff, and to have a place to hang my GoPro; that I wouldn’t use it very much. 

Several months in, I’ve stopped trying to convince myself that there’s some ulterior motive that keeps the chin bar on. I just ‘like it’.

I ride with a full face helmet for the majority (75%?) of my time on the bike. 

I see more and more riders with them on too, so I don’t feel so weird about it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Headoc (Mar 24, 2015)

FredCoMTB said:


> I'm due for a new helmet, probably have been for a while. Nothing wrong with this one (though it's debatably expired). Predates MIPS.
> 
> The last helmet hit pavement at 30 mph and cracked clean through in at least three places. I also am sometimes vitamin D deficient because of a side effect of a medicine, though supplements help that to a degree. Have had a few other minor-ish concussions (the one above was the big one, but no lasting effects, thankfully).
> 
> ...


Just got the TLD stage to replace my switchblade because I kept leaving the chinbar off. Ironically faceplanted on a trail I've ridden 300 times this morning at 30 mph. Totally unscathed. Far as I'm concerned everyone should be wearing full face. Not the opposite.


----------



## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

As another poster did, I bought a Bell convertible helmet with the removable chinbar last year. Subsequently, I seldom took the chinbar off. Went ahead and bought an IXS Trigger that doesn't have the removable bar. Ventliates even better, is lighter and removes one potential failure point. It sounds like you could benefit from having a FF, so why not?


----------



## b rock (Jan 5, 2017)

My next will be convertible or FF. I’m just waiting for the pandemic to be over, as I ride some places where you need to wear a mask.


----------



## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

You should buy a full face helmet and ride with it, so we all can then wear full face helmets and not feel weird about it.

This reminds me of BITD before anyone wore helmets to ski. At first there was a mentality that if you were good, you didn't need a helmet. Then it slowly became that if you didn't wear a helmet, you were probably a poser who never went big and weren't pushing it to the point where helmets have saved your day.


----------



## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

i'd say after brains that teeth, noses, and eyes are pretty important. smashing your face on the stem isn't as hard as you might think.


----------



## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

Thanks, everybody. Got a few more helmets to check out and get one ordered. Appreciate it. 

Was wondering if it'd get TOO hot or heavy, but you guys have reminded it doesn't matter if it is, given the protection. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

FredCoMTB said:


> Was wondering if it'd get TOO hot or heavy, but you guys have reminded it doesn't matter if it is, given the protection.


you get used to it after awhile. try and not get a black one.


----------



## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

This was me... skiing and snowboarding is where the other concussions (and other ailments...) came from. Never really sank in till the bad crash I had...I guess a backboard/collar and an ambulance ride will do that. 

Bought a ski helmet that year. No idea why I didn't wear one from the start. I've always religiously worn a helmet on a bike...I literally don't remember riding a bike without one for more than a minute I don't think. Just never transferred to skiing till then. 



Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

I've been using a TLD Stage for about a year. Love it and I'm never going back. Only marginally hotter on climbs but it vents great when you have a little speed.

I do still use a standard mtb helmet for chill rides on easy smooth trails. I do prefer the fit and feel of my FF helmet but it really isn't necessary for my easy rides.


----------



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

IMO, the Bell Super DH is going to do a superior job preventing concussion vs most choices because it's DH rated and has the ball-and-socket type MIPS with the softer inner layer. 

It's nice to take the chinbar off for climbs, especially long ones and we have lots of those in CO.


----------



## Jrob6716 (Mar 22, 2021)

FredCoMTB said:


> I'm due for a new helmet, probably have been for a while. Nothing wrong with this one (though it's debatably expired). Predates MIPS.
> 
> The last helmet hit pavement at 30 mph and cracked clean through in at least three places. I also am sometimes vitamin D deficient because of a side effect of a medicine, though supplements help that to a degree. Have had a few other minor-ish concussions (the one above was the big one, but no lasting effects, thankfully).
> 
> ...


Absolutely , I got punched in the face 
By the handlebars during a fall somehow. chipped a tooth and wound up with stitches on the lip . Could have been much worse. So all I wear is full face unless I'm doing strictly climbing without any crazy decent. I went with tld stage love it!!


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

TwoTone said:


> I know a few XC riders that have scars on their faces or some fake teeth, yet still won't go light FF.


Maybe a cost thing? I'd say lightweight and breathable full face choice has only recently improved. I know removable chin bar ones have been around for awhile. Personally I don't want a removable one, I have a D3, which is extremely hot, I pull it off as soon as I've finished a run and could barely pedal in it. Something like the Stage looks perfect though, that would be something I'd wear 99% of the time. The only issue I see is I don't want to wear goggles 99% of the time either.

The price of Stage here is 101 Big Macs whereas a POC Tectal Race Spin is only 65 Big Macs


----------



## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

Mudguard said:


> Maybe a cost thing? I'd say lightweight and breathable full face choice has only recently improved. I know removable chin bar ones have been around for awhile. Personally I don't want a removable one, I have a D3, which is extremely hot, I pull it off as soon as I've finished a run and could barely pedal in it. Something like the Stage looks perfect though, that would be something I'd wear 99% of the time. The only issue I see is I don't want to wear goggles 99% of the time either.
> 
> The price of Stage here is 101 Big Macs whereas a POC Tectal Race Spin is only 65 Big Macs


Yeah definitely an adjustment...I think my last helmet was less than $100 8 or 9 years ago now.

Took a little while for that saying "don't skimp on what's between you and the ground" saying stuck. Tires/boots/helmet all included.

And you're right...I used to race XC and some falls I was just lucky I didn't fall on my face. Not like the risk isn't there, just luck.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

Protect your head if you ride in The Shed!


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Mudguard said:


> Maybe a cost thing? I'd say lightweight and breathable full face choice has only recently improved. I know removable chin bar ones have been around for awhile. Personally I don't want a removable one, I have a D3, which is extremely hot, I pull it off as soon as I've finished a run and could barely pedal in it. Something like the Stage looks perfect though, that would be something I'd wear 99% of the time. The only issue I see is I don't want to wear goggles 99% of the time either.
> 
> The price of Stage here is 101 Big Macs whereas a POC Tectal Race Spin is only 65 Big Macs


Not for the guys I'm talking about. I've had my MET for years now and they got it right the first time. Had to order from Europe.

I remember reading all the complaints of no removable chinbar and all the praises for the first super. Never understood it, seemed like more of a PIA and it seems like a lot of the actual owners are tending to agree.


----------



## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

Why not? Then you only have 1 helmet to remember for trails, bike parks, etc... As the sole income earner of my household, I'd rather be safe for what is hardly any tradeoff.


----------



## Troll on a Bike (Feb 12, 2021)

I wear a 100% brand full-face helmet. It is light weight and has plenty of ventilation. I am the only one I have seen wearing a full-face at my trails but I would rather be safe than sorry.


----------



## Loll (May 2, 2006)

Where I am at, almost everyone still wear a mask.

mask + full face, hope you dont drink water frequently from a water bottle. It is a hassle to come to a full stop, removal twoitems, just to take a sip of water.

Otherwise I am with you, light weight full face most of the time.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I only wear a fullface (TLD D3) when riding DH. I don't feel the need on most public trails. I might eat my words (or teeth) one day but with my bmx background I feel pretty confident in my ability to protect my face at normal trail speeds. I've seen videos of people going OTB at slow speed and face plant still holding onto the bars, I understand why they want a FF helmet.

I live in TN and already skip riding some days due to the heat. So a FF for trail riding in the summer isn't going to happen.


----------



## cvbrewer (Sep 9, 2020)

diamondback1x9 said:


> i'd say after brains that teeth, noses, and eyes are pretty important. smashing your face on the stem isn't as hard as you might think.


This was my thinking. That, and "isn't your face part of your head?" I ride with a full face mask. Riding along on a rail trail yesterday in my full face mask, I was working hard not to feel silly, but who am I trying to impress?

The only reason not to that I can think of is getting over heated. But compared to smashing your teeth out or breaking your nose...


----------



## C Smasher (Apr 20, 2012)

Another vote for FF. I currently run the Bell Super DH. Once you get used to it you feel naked without it. And coming from dirt biking and sports bikes it just feels natural for me to wear FF.


----------



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

C Smasher said:


> Another vote for FF. I currently run the Bell Super DH. Once you get used to it you feel naked without it. And coming from dirt biking and sports bikes it just feels natural for me to wear FF.


I think the Super DH is superior to most helmets, at the cost of some weight and bulk. Ventilation seems fine, so it's really just looks and the weight is inconsequential for me.

It's also the only helmet with a removeable chin bar that I'd trust to do what it's supposed to do. I think the Super DH is likely better than most lighter weight FF helmets with non-removeable chin bars that do not carry DH certification, and potentially better than many that do because of the dual layer foam.

I also have a Bell Full 9 carbon for times I don't have to pedal. I wouldn't want to have this or a D3 for regular trail riding!


----------



## MrIcky (Oct 2, 2007)

I also have a tld stage. Wear what you feel mentally comfortable with and don't worry about it. All the newest full face enduro helmets have pretty cool venting. The only problem is drinking out of a waterbottle while rolling is marginally harder. Very first world problem.


----------



## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

The TLD Stage is downhill rated and I'm pretty sure rated equal to the Super DH.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Too hot, heavy and uncomfortable just to protect a part of our bodies that very rarely takes hits. I've been riding since the 90's, DH since 05. I've sustained a bunch of injuries, cracked two half shells, but nothing more than minor cuts on my face in spite of doing a lot of lift service in a half shell. (main place I ride lifts has backcountry I pedal to as well) You don't need rampage gear to go for a trail ride.


----------



## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

EABiker said:


> Protect your head if you ride in The Shed!


You nailed it. That, Greenbrier and Gambrill mostly.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

slimat99 said:


> Too hot, heavy and uncomfortable just to protect a part of our bodies that very rarely takes hits. I've been riding since the 90's, DH since 05. I've sustained a bunch of injuries, cracked two half shells, but nothing more than minor cuts on my face in spite of doing a lot of lift service in a half shell. (main place I ride lifts has backcountry I pedal too as well) You don't need rampage gear to go for a trail ride.


lucky. every time i've crashed if i wasn't wearing a full face either side of my face would have got ripped up. on my FF there is scratches on both sides of the chin bar. pretty sure that shows what would have happened if i didn't have a full face


----------



## Headoc (Mar 24, 2015)

slimat99 said:


> Too hot, heavy and uncomfortable just to protect a part of our bodies that very rarely takes hits. I've been riding since the 90's, DH since 05. I've sustained a bunch of injuries, cracked two half shells, but nothing more than minor cuts on my face in spite of doing a lot of lift service in a half shell. (main place I ride lifts has backcountry I pedal to as well) You don't need rampage gear to go for a trail ride.


"I don't need rampage gear to go for a trail ride."

Fixed it for you.


----------



## C Smasher (Apr 20, 2012)

davec113 said:


> I think the Super DH is superior to most helmets, at the cost of some weight and bulk. Ventilation seems fine, so it's really just looks and the weight is inconsequential for me.
> 
> It's also the only helmet with a removeable chin bar that I'd trust to do what it's supposed to do. I think the Super DH is likely better than most lighter weight FF helmets with non-removeable chin bars that do not carry DH certification, and potentially better than many that do because of the dual layer foam.


Agree. The Spherical MIPS system with the dual density foams is top tech for sure. I had the experience of testing it out too, hitting my head felt really minor even though it was a big hit.

It is kind of ugly without the chin bar but I don't care and usually have the chin bar on anyways.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Headoc said:


> "I don't need rampage gear to go for a trail ride."
> 
> Fixed it for you.


Fair enough. Anyone is free to pedal in upper body armor too. I've done that when I had a shoulder injury I needed to baby. An EWS study was done to help mitigate the most common MTB injuries. Hands and Shoulders are what the study found to be our biggest issues. Face injuries are few and far between. I just think trail riders are being hypochondriacs if they feel they need a FF to ride trail. Yes that's my opinion but it's also backed up by statistics. Busted faces and broken backs/necks are rare, but they can happen. THe latter more so than the former. We should be more worried about not having a neck brace than not having a full face.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jeremy3220 said:


> I only wear a fullface (TLD D3) when riding DH. I don't feel the need on most public trails. I might eat my words (or teeth) one day but with my bmx background I feel pretty confident in my ability to protect my face at normal trail speeds. I've seen videos of people going OTB at slow speed and face plant still holding onto the bars, I understand why they want a FF helmet.
> 
> I live in TN and already skip riding some days due to the heat. So a FF for trail riding in the summer isn't going to happen.


I don't do DH riding, but this is kinda how I view full face helmets. I run hot anyway, and living in the southeast, I am absolutely not excited to wear a helmet that's even marginally warmer. Still, I do think about getting a FF occasionally because Pisgah still has some spots where going down without a FF could make for a bad day. But I keep coming back to being hot. As it is, I still need to take most half lids off from time to time on rides during the hotter parts of the summer, and I start to plan my rides around places where I'll have a nice cool stream crossing.

It's all about balancing risks. Sure, there's risk from crashing without face protection, but there's also risk from heat-related injuries. And from the way I ride, where I ride, and the conditions I ride in, risks from heat-related injuries outweigh the ones from crashes. And with that in mind, I'm more likely to wear light armor for my knees & elbows (on the faster descents, anyway) than I am to wear a full face helmet.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

diamondback1x9 said:


> lucky. every time i've crashed if i wasn't wearing a full face either side of my face would have got ripped up. on my FF there is scratches on both sides of the chin bar. pretty sure that shows what would have happened if i didn't have a full face


I'm not saying face injuries don't happen, just saying they aren't common enough for me to worry about for trail riding. There's a point of diminishing returns with protection. A FF for trail riding is past that point for me.


----------



## Floussinrick (Mar 22, 2021)

FredCoMTB said:


> I'm due for a new helmet, probably have been for a while. Nothing wrong with this one (though it's debatably expired). Predates MIPS.
> 
> The last helmet hit pavement at 30 mph and cracked clean through in at least three places. I also am sometimes vitamin D deficient because of a side effect of a medicine, though supplements help that to a degree. Have had a few other minor-ish concussions (the one above was the big one, but no lasting effects, thankfully).
> 
> ...


Echo the full face 100%...I've been riding with the TLD Stage for about a year after a few OTB crashes while wearing a convertible FF and I don't see myself going back. It's lightweight enough to wear all the time. Protect that pretty face!


----------



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> Fair enough. Anyone is free to pedal in upper body armor too. I've done that when I had a shoulder injury I needed to baby. An EWS study was done to help mitigate the most common MTB injuries. Hands and Shoulders are what the study found to be our biggest issues. Face injuries are few and far between. I just think trail riders are being hypochondriacs if they feel they need a FF to ride trail. Yes that's my opinion but it's also backed up by statistics. Busted faces and broken backs/necks are rare, but they can happen. THe latter more so than the former. We should be more worried about not having a neck brace than not having a full face.


Agreed, it's more about how you feel, but otoh there do seem to be certain people that tend to hit their head more often. Apparently, I am good at destroying my shoulders instead.


----------



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

C Smasher said:


> Agree. The Spherical MIPS system with the dual density foams is top tech for sure. I had the experience of testing it out too, hitting my head felt really minor even though it was a big hit.
> 
> It is kind of ugly without the chin bar but I don't care and usually have the chin bar on anyways.


Good to hear it did it's job! I have not tested mine out yet... (knock on wood!).


----------



## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

Thank you all for the info and opinions. I looked at all the different helmets (that had mips and met US standards) in detail. Ventilation and weight were the two biggest factors (didn't consider anything non-mips or that didn't meet standards).

Came down to the TLD Stage and the IXS Trigger (the mips version) for me. The price was pretty much the same so I picked the color I liked most and ordered the orange IXS.

I'll try to remember to come back and compare it to the half shell and the giant heavy FF I used to have 15 years ago (definitely not a fair comparison there...)

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

davec113 said:


> Agreed, it's more about how you feel, but otoh there do seem to be certain people that tend to hit their head more often. Apparently, I am good at destroying my shoulders instead.


Yes some crash better than others. Like you I'm prone to shoulder impacts. I've jacked up my right shoulder three times and now my middle aged body is over it. I truly fear hitting it again and I know it's going to happen because statistically when we crash we go OTB or just flung forward which causes us to stick our hands out to break the fall, or try and roll. Either way our shoulders are in harms way. Smashing the face is pretty rare because how the average crash happens. The only face injury of consequence I've sustained was as a kid skating. Busted a tooth hanging up on a quarter pipe. Unlike MTB, skaters are prone to slamming face down lighting fast but of course they dont' even wear helmets. There are so few situations where crashes send us face down lighting fast I just don't stress it.


----------



## Headoc (Mar 24, 2015)

Soapbox commentary to the folks that are perusing this thread and considering a ff vs a half shell. Feel free to ignore or flame. Be careful applying group statistics to individual events. Hypothetically there may be a 1:100 chance of being in an accident that results in your smashing your face on a rock but that statistic doesn't really apply to you as an individual. It more speaks to watching multiple riders over a large period of time and evaluating what got injured in that window. Look at it this way. Your individual probability of smashing your face was maybe lower when you first started riding because you kept your speed down. Your probability of smashing your face in a wreck might have actually increased as you have progressed because your speed is up but your line choice is not great. If you are an expert rider your probability might have gone down again because your balance and control are so good that you know how to fall and not smash your face (see recent Remy Metalier video where Barelli just bites it and walks away unscathed). However, it only has to happen one time, to you, and you will be asking yourself whether avoiding being hot was worth having your jaw wired shut for 6 months. Maybe it was. No right answer for all. Only a right answer for you. 99% of my rides I don't even need a helmet until I need it. But I still never go out without one. With how light and well ventilated the IXS trigger or the TLD Stage are, adding the chin bar just seems like a no brainer. (Pun intended...or not). Regardless, I'm glad to see the original poster went with a ff for no other reason then I'm not gonna be the only one out there riding trails in full face.  

Now, off to look at neck braces...


----------



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> Yes some crash better than others. Like you I'm prone to shoulder impacts. I've jacked up my right shoulder three times and now my middle aged body is over it. I truly fear hitting it again and I know it's going to happen because statistically when we crash we go OTB or just flung forward which causes us to stick our hands out to break the fall, or try and roll. Either way our shoulders are in harms way. Smashing the face is pretty rare because how the average crash happens. The only face injury of consequence I've sustained was as a kid skating. Busted a tooth hanging up on a quarter pipe. Unlike MTB, skaters are prone to slamming face down lighting fast but of course they dont' even wear helmets. There are so few situations where crashes send us face down lighting fast I just don't stress it.


I just had the glenoid in my r shoulder repaired, 3 weeks post-op right now. Luckily, no soft tissue damage, but my left shoulder got mangled 5 years ago. Like you, I am middle aged and over it... unfortunately, bikes can throw you down pretty awkwardly sometimes.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Headoc said:


> Soapbox commentary to the folks that are perusing this thread and considering a ff vs a half shell. Feel free to ignore or flame. Be careful applying group statistics to individual events. Hypothetically there may be a 1:100 chance of being in an accident that results in your smashing your face on a rock but that statistic doesn't really apply to you as an individual. It more speaks to watching multiple riders over a large period of time and evaluating what got injured in that window. Look at it this way. Your individual probability of smashing your face was maybe lower when you first started riding because you kept your speed down. Your probability of smashing your face in a wreck might have actually increased as you have progressed because your speed is up but your line choice is not great. If you are an expert rider your probability might have gone down again because your balance and control are so good that you know how to fall and not smash your face (see recent Remy Metalier video where Barelli just bites it and walks away unscathed). However, it only has to happen one time, to you, and you will be asking yourself whether avoiding being hot was worth having your jaw wired shut for 6 months. Maybe it was. No right answer for all. Only a right answer for you. 99% of my rides I don't even need a helmet until I need it. But I still never go out without one. With how light and well ventilated the IXS trigger or the TLD Stage are, adding the chin bar just seems like a no brainer. (Pun intended...or not). Regardless, I'm glad to see the original poster went with a ff for no other reason then I'm not gonna be the only one out there riding trails in full face.
> 
> Now, off to look at neck braces...


I once saw a lady walking in a department store trip carrying shopping bags in each hand. She was in the middle of the aisle, nothing around, she mis-tepped and fell face first into the tile still clutching the bags by her side. She was bleeding quite heavily from her chin. Do you think you should wear a fullface helmet when you go shopping? It only has to happen one time right?

The probability of injury is important. Otherwise you'd live in a full face helmet. I've been riding and jumping bikes for a long time. I have a good understanding of the risk and what to expect if a crash occurs under certain speeds and conditions. I will say though that if you're in doubt as to whether you need a FF helmet then it's probably a good idea to get one.


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Another "I bought a convertible helmet thinking I'd change modes all the time, and it turns out I almost never do it" user here. I think the last 3 times I took my Super DH's chinbar off, I was actually packing for a trip (its easier to stuff a full face helmet into the back of the car filled with kid toys/bikes, when its in pieces at it turns out).

Like a few others, I grew up riding dirt bikes. A full face just feels normal for me when riding something with handlebars. And although full face helmets are often a bit more money than a half shell, either are much cheaper than having to replace teeth, get a jaw wired up, or even just stitches to the chin/face area. 

Personally I also find that either due to my life experiences, or physiology, or something, I don't notice any heat related problems with a FF. I do live in a cooler area (PNW), so any heat related issues don't come up for me all that often. I've also ridden in Utah in summer conditions (exposed hillsides with no brush/tree cover, and 103f), and the thought to remove the chinbar didn't even occur to me. I just drank more water (I also grew up in Phoenix AZ, and worked outdoor jobs in the summer... so I may be desensitized to what "hot" means).

But I have a buddy who sometimes pulls off his full face helmet at the top of a climb just "so he can finally breathe", even when its 45f outside. So clearly being overheated by a FF is a "thing".

Personally, I think for most gravity oriented rides/riders, FF helmets will continue to become more popular, until they're probably the "normal". Dirt bikes had a similar transformation back in the day, and now FF are of course the norm there. I know the bikes are not the same as dirt bikes, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the trend be the same for mountain bikes.

For cross country I can understand how they might never catch on. But typically the risks are slightly less as well, so that matches up.


----------



## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

slimat99 said:


> You don't need rampage gear to go for a trail ride.


Until ya do...

You might be the best rider on the trail, but your safety can be easily and quickly compromised by less adept riders or other things out of your control.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

When I see people on the trail wearing knee and elbow protection, but no full-face, I always think their priorities are screwed up. Yeah the elbows and knees get banged up quicker, but the consequences of a facial impact are usually a lot worse than a knee or shin injury. 

I have a full face, and should probably wear it a lot more often.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Light weight knee-protection is far less intrusive than a full face  At least when it's 100º out. Should I wear full body armor at all times, because I'm wearing gloves?




Kali's got a full face out that'd be interesting due to it's apparent air-flow.. but you know.. it's mostly black.


----------



## G-Choro (Jul 30, 2010)

You can do whatever you want. Some people will rip you, some will understand, and many won't care. But if you're pulling a baby trailer around the block with a full face...yeah, I'll probably rip on you.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

dysfunction said:


> Light weight knee-protection is far less intrusive than a full face  At least when it's 100º out. Should I wear full body armor at all times, because I'm wearing gloves?


I moved to another state to avoid riding in 100 degree weather thanks.

And I know _why_ people opt to put on knee and elbow pads but not their face. Aside from the stupid over-hot days you should avoid riding in regardless, it's not that much worse.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ogre said:


> I moved to another state to avoid riding in 100 degree weather thanks.
> 
> And I know _why_ people opt to put on knee and elbow pads but not their face. Aside from the stupid over-hot days you should avoid riding in regardless, it's not that much worse.


So I should just not ride for 9 months out of the year. Gotcha


----------



## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Started motorcross at a young age so I learned how to fall early. I haven't hit my head in probably 5+ years and have had at least a dozen falls in that time period. So probability of me hitting my face in a crash is very low. However it isn't 0% and I reach some pretty high speed on downhills. Furthermore the new FF helmets are so light and breathable making an argument against them is pretty moot unlike body armor which is very hot to wear. You aren't losing any comfort with the new FF helmets but you're gaining protection. That makes it a pretty easy decision for me.

Biggest reason I wear FF is I think the odds of smashing my face into a tree are a little high. One slip of the front tire could have my face in an uncontrolled trajectory straight into a tree.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

dysfunction said:


> So I should just not ride for 9 months out of the year. Gotcha


Again, my choice was to not live where it's stupid hot.

I can ride 12 months a year and only have to make the call 2-3 days out of a bad year. Rain? Of course we have to choose whether or not we ride in the rain a lot.


----------



## G-Choro (Jul 30, 2010)

Ogre said:


> I can ride 12 months a year and only have to make the call 2-3 days out of a bad year. Rain? Of course we have to choose whether or not we ride in the rain a lot.


Where are you? Is there a job market?! I'm on my way.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ogre said:


> Again, my choice was to not live where it's stupid hot.
> 
> I can ride 12 months a year and only have to make the call 2-3 days out of a bad year. Rain? Of course we have to choose whether or not we ride in the rain a lot.


Not everyone has a choice to live elsewhere dude. Some of us have responsibilities that are geo-located.

My biggest complaint, with a whole lot of this stuff, is that the colors for almost all of this stuff just suck for those of us in the desert. Don't believe that a black helmet is hotter than a white one? Come here in August


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Ogre said:


> When I see people on the trail wearing knee and elbow protection, but no full-face, I always think their priorities are screwed up. Yeah the elbows and knees get banged up quicker, but the consequences of a facial impact are usually a lot worse than a knee or shin injury.
> 
> I have a full face, and should probably wear it a lot more often.


Simply because you tend to land on your hands, elbows, and knees more than your face (I hope so anyway).

Btw, it's also easier to protect your face than the back of your head since your limbs are easy to extend in front of you than behind you.

However I understand your points. I would think the average mountain biker hitting a 3ft tall tabletop is more likely to land on their face than a pro bmxer doing a backflip.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Headoc said:


> Soapbox commentary to the folks that are perusing this thread and considering a ff vs a half shell. Feel free to ignore or flame. Be careful applying group statistics to individual events. Hypothetically there may be a 1:100 chance of being in an accident that results in your smashing your face on a rock but that statistic doesn't really apply to you as an individual. It more speaks to watching multiple riders over a large period of time and evaluating what got injured in that window. Look at it this way. Your individual probability of smashing your face was maybe lower when you first started riding because you kept your speed down. Your probability of smashing your face in a wreck might have actually increased as you have progressed because your speed is up but your line choice is not great. If you are an expert rider your probability might have gone down again because your balance and control are so good that you know how to fall and not smash your face (see recent Remy Metalier video where Barelli just bites it and walks away unscathed). However, it only has to happen one time, to you, and you will be asking yourself whether avoiding being hot was worth having your jaw wired shut for 6 months. Maybe it was. No right answer for all. Only a right answer for you. 99% of my rides I don't even need a helmet until I need it. But I still never go out without one. With how light and well ventilated the IXS trigger or the TLD Stage are, adding the chin bar just seems like a no brainer. (Pun intended...or not). Regardless, I'm glad to see the original poster went with a ff for no other reason then I'm not gonna be the only one out there riding trails in full face.
> 
> Now, off to look at neck braces...


I was thinking about Remy's latest vid. That crash was nuts! And the trails take steep tech to the next level. It's interesting Remy chooses an open face. I feel safer in steep tech with open face because of the better field of vision. I think that's why Remy does it too but I'm not sure? In regards to statistics. Watch a few friday fails. It's uncanny how similar bike crashes are. Every sport should take note of common injuries and how to mitigate them. For us it's hands, and shoulders which ironically we do nothing to address.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

dysfunction said:


> Not everyone has a choice to live elsewhere dude. Some of us have responsibilities that are geo-located.


I know. Though I have to say I've seen a fair number of people on these forums who did choose Arizona over cooler areas. And... not bagging on them either, just me, personally can't/ won't do heat.



dysfunction said:


> My biggest complaint, with a whole lot of this stuff, is that the colors for almost all of this stuff just suck for those of us in the desert. Don't believe that a black helmet is hotter than a white one? Come here in August


Rattle can will fix that.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

davec113 said:


> I just had the glenoid in my r shoulder repaired, 3 weeks post-op right now. Luckily, no soft tissue damage, but my left shoulder got mangled 5 years ago. Like you, I am middle aged and over it... unfortunately, bikes can throw you down pretty awkwardly sometimes.


That's tough. If there's one thing we can count on, it's getting tossed OTB. It's just the nature of the beast. Fast or slow, over the bars we go.


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

slimat99 said:


> Watch a few friday fails. It's uncanny how similar bike crashes are. Every sport should take note of common injuries and how to mitigate them. For us it's hands, and shoulders which ironically we do nothing to address.


The shoulders one is one I'm interested in seeing the industry adapt to cover more. Especially since that recent study has data to show what the "pain points" are.

I picked up one of THESE (leatt shoulder pad shirt) when they were on clearance last year for $20. And I wear it occasionally when I know I'm riding new trails/features or really slippery conditions (or wear in conjunction with a spine protector and my normal knee/elbow pads) for the rare times I'm riding park.


----------



## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

ocnLogan said:


> I picked up one of THESE (leatt shoulder pad shirt)


for mtb or moto?


----------



## Juansan (Dec 30, 2020)

Broken wrist, collar bone, dislocated shoulder twice, cracked ribs, dislocated finger, cracked helmet with mild concussion, haven't landed on my face yet, must be doing something wrong.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

jeremy3220 said:


> Simply because you tend to land on your hands, elbows, and knees more than your face (I hope so anyway).
> 
> Btw, it's also easier to protect your face than the back of your head since your limbs are easy to extend in front of you than behind you.
> 
> However I understand your points. I would think the average mountain biker hitting a 3ft tall tabletop is more likely to land on their face than a pro bmxer doing a backflip.


Yeah, I said as much in my post. But how many of those more common knee/ elbow/ hand injuries involve multiple reconstructive surgeries? If me knee gets a bit of a scrape or some bruising, I heal after a few weeks. I know you can seriously screw up your knee too, but facial injuries often result in ER visits.

I know at least 2 people I've ridden with have needed extensive dental work/ facial reconstruction, including MTBR Francis. I've personally had a couple serious facial smashes and concussions which a full face _might_ have avoided or mitigated.


----------



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> I was thinking about Remy's latest vid. That crash was nuts! And the trails take steep tech to the next level. It's interesting Remy chooses an open face. I feel safer in steep tech with open face because of the better field of vision. I think that's why Remy does it too but I'm not sure? In regards to statistics. Watch a few friday fails. It's uncanny how similar bike crashes are. Every sport should take note of common injuries and how to mitigate them. For us it's hands, and shoulders which ironically we do nothing to address.


IMO, Yoann got super-lucky. He got tossed about the best direction and trajectory possible. I don't think he had any control over what's happening once his left foot slipped off that pedal.

Remy has addressed the helmet issue... he feels more comfortable in a half-shell. At his level of riding, I am not going to question it, but personally, even though (knock on wood) I've never hit my head at all, I'm gonna keep wearing my Super DH! I think wearing a FF is not that bad, but it seems very personal with some hating it and others not minding much.

--------------------------

On shoulder pads... not ONE of the crashes I injured my shoulder would have been helped by shoulder pads, it's often the arm used to prevent a face-plant that causes the injury and not a direct impact to the shoulder. However, I do have a RF Flank Core shirt and I'll be wearing it after I get back on the bike, once my shoulder heals up again.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

because solvents are great on foam, fabrics, and plastics.

Shoulder pads don't help separations, or joint injuries.

So, there are reasons why someone may chose to not go with full face helmets. Just like there are reasons most people don't wear full downhill body armor on a xc flow trail. Sometimes, it's worth tailoring your protection level to your risk.

Now that we're starting to really see full face helmets that vent decently, it'll be less of an issue... btw, the worst venting helmet I've tried is the new Bontrager Wavecel. I swear a protec lid vents better.

Also something to think about, impact speeds are important. Especially for helmet designs.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

slimat99 said:


> It's uncanny how similar bike crashes are. Every sport should take note of common injuries and how to mitigate them. For us it's hands, and shoulders which ironically we do nothing to address.


Nursing a shoulder injury myself. Not even sure if it's a bike injury or something else, kind of snuck up on my, but man does it screw up a lot of things in life.


----------



## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

Ogre said:


> Yeah, I said as much in my post. But how many of those more common knee/ elbow/ hand injuries involve multiple reconstructive surgeries? If me knee gets a bit of a scrape or some bruising, I heal after a few weeks. I know you can seriously screw up your knee too, but facial injuries often result in ER visits.
> 
> I know at least 2 people I've ridden with have needed extensive dental work/ facial reconstruction, including MTBR Francis. I've personally had a couple serious facial smashes and concussions which a full face _might_ have avoided or mitigated.


Yeah that last part is important to me. Took almost a year for my concussion symptoms to fade, but that's not always the case. Sometimes they never go away.

The more concussions you get, the worse symptoms can get (not always, though). Having had a few I feel like I need to look into any safety improvement I can make within the realm of reason. That's why I stated looking at replacing a helmet, then found out about mips, then saw something about light and breathable full face helmets.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

FredCoMTB said:


> Yeah that last part is important to me. Took almost a year for my concussion symptoms to fade, but that's not always the case. Sometimes they never go away.
> 
> The more concussions you get, the worse symptoms can get (not always, though). Having had a few I feel like I need to look into any safety improvement I can make within the realm of reason. That's why I stated looking at replacing a helmet, then found out about mips, then saw something about light and breathable full face helmets.


My 2 possible concussions (never got diagnosed and didn't have long symptoms) both involved my face directly smashing into the ground so the chin guard would have certainly helped some.

The full face should definitely prevent any dental damage.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

[/QUOTE]


ocnLogan said:


> The shoulders one is one I'm interested in seeing the industry adapt to cover more. Especially since that recent study has data to show what the "pain points" are.
> 
> I picked up one of THESE (leatt shoulder pad shirt) when they were on clearance last year for $20. And I wear it occasionally when I know I'm riding new trails/features or really slippery conditions (or wear in conjunction with a spine protector and my normal knee/elbow pads) for the rare times I'm riding park.


I rode in an IXS Hack jersey for 6 months after my last shoulder injury. There's some good trail options but almost no one pedals in them, or even DH's in them.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Ogre said:


> Yeah, I said as much in my post. But how many of those more common knee/ elbow/ hand injuries involve multiple reconstructive surgeries?


Probably way more of those injuries require surgery.

I don't understand how y'all are landing on your face so much.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

jeremy3220 said:


> Probably way more of those injuries require surgery.
> 
> I don't understand how y'all are landing on your face so much.


For about the 3rd time. It's not landing on the face more.

It's that landing on the face is so much worse.

I'm not worried about the little injuries I deal with that all the time, I'm worried about the less common big ones.


----------



## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

jeremy3220 said:


> I don't understand how y'all are landing on your face so much.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Ogre said:


> For about the 3rd time. It's not landing on the face more.
> 
> It's that landing on the face is so much worse.
> 
> I'm not worried about the little injuries I deal with that all the time, I'm worried about the less common big ones.


I've been riding bmx and mtb for quite a few years, never landed on my face.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

jeremy3220 said:


> I've been riding bmx and mtb for quite a few years, never landed on my face.


Are you looking for a brownie button? Applause?


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

I mean, if a FF doesn't appeal/doesn't work for "you" (the "royal" you in this case, meaning each everyone), then I'd expect "you" to keep riding a half shell. 

But now that FF helmets are lighter, and breathe better than they used to, I suspect we'll continue to see more and more people wearing them. It is one thing if every FF was like my 20yr old dirt bike helmet (look mom, its only 3.5 lbs!), but now that you can get an actual DH rated helmet, that you don't sweat like a pig in that weighs under 1kg, the cost benefit ratio of a trail/"enduro" FF is much higher than its ever been.

Also, full faces also usually cover more of the area around your ear, as well as the areas around the sides of your lower jaws. So its not just an impact straight to the teeth, but the sides of your head and face are also covered more as well. I have converted my Super DH back to a half shell for more sedate rides around the local on the green trails with my wife, but any time I am looking to ride more aggressively or at higher speeds, I wear it as a full face.

And I'll agree that its instinct to protect your head. Its just many times there isn't much time to do much about it. The "front end washed out and I clipped a tree with my face" scenario is one I'm sure more than one mountain biker has had happen (or at least cross their mind due to a close call).

For the shoulder pads thing, yeah, they aren't a great solution. I grabbed them ( and a spine protector) in the clearance sale they had about a year and a half ago. All for less than the price that their knee pads usually cost alone. I only use that combo when I go to bike parks, but it gives me some more peace of mind (especially the spine protector, because broken bones/stitches are one thing, but a broken back is another, so I might as well try to mitigate it). I'm curious what other solutions the industry will have in a few years/decade that can actually help the shoulder area more.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Ogre said:


> Are you looking for a brownie button? Applause?


No I'm saying skill is a factor. Some people need full armour to hit a 2ft drop, some just need a half shell to backflip 360.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

jeremy3220 said:


> No I'm saying skill is a factor. Some people need full armour to hit a 2ft drop, some just need a half shell to backflip 360.


People say this about not wearing _any_ helmet. Or armor. Or pants. Yet top level, pro racers in our sport have gotten concussions and at least one has died.

Skill. Right.

My first head injury was when I was a total noob 22+ years ago. My most recent was due to equipment failure, I had a pedal sheer off. I've also had crank arms snap off.
I've watched a frame buckle under a buddy doing a 3 foot jump (and been thankful it didn't happen when he was launching much bigger stuff earlier in the day). Stuff happens to the best of us regardless of skill.

Congrats on your noggin being intact.


----------



## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

This topic fascinates me every time it comes up here on MTBR. And how worked up people get over what others wear- in the vein of " I'm trail riding, it's not RedBull Rampage". 
It's crazy to me the diferences in culture between Motocross and MTB. If I showed up to the MX track (or a moto trail ride) with an open-face helmet, I'd likely get shamed into not only buying one, but even not riding until I did.
It's crazy that so many riders will shame others for having more than what amounts to an "igloo-cooler baseball hat".

Helmets are "better to have it and never need it, than need it and not have it".

About 12 years ago I went down hard on my YZF 426, I was (probably) at a speed attainable on an MTB, rocky trail on the front range of Colorado. It not only cracked my $350 fullface Arai helmet, but also my skull, broke my cheekbone and dislocated my jaw, in addition to other injuries below my neck. My elbow hit my side hard enough to break 2 ribs.
I went to the hospital in an ambulance. I have 2 plates in my skull above my eye and ear, 2 around my eye socket, and one in my jaw.

I'd probably be dead or a vegetable without a good helmet that protected my actual face.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Ogre said:


> Are you looking for a brownie button? Applause?


I don't want to speak for him but it sounds more like a statistical statement, not a bragging statement.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Impetus said:


> It's crazy to me the diferences in culture between Motocross and MTB. If I showed up to the MX track (or a moto trail ride) with an open-face helmet, I'd likely get shamed into not only buying one, but even not riding until I did.


They're different sports. Moto trials riders still wear open face helmets for the most part. Skateboarders usually don't wear helmets, snowboarders do, bmx riders often don't, DH riders do, you don't wear a helmet in your car, F1 drivers do. It's not simply a cultural issue and I don't know why you're bringing up shaming.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Ogre said:


> People say this about not wearing _any_ helmet. Or armor. Or pants. Yet top level, pro racers in our sport have gotten concussions and at least one has died.


What sport are you talking about? XC racing? Or are you entering freeride competitions? I thought we were talking about normal trail riding.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ummm what does a chin bar do to prevent a concussion?  

Seriously, do I need to wear my motorsports rated helmet on my bike as well as on the track?

Guys, it's about reasonable risk mitigation.


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

I'd argue that BMX and skateboarders not wearing a helmet is a cultural/style thing. I think I remember them saying "If we had to wear a helmet, then it would be a sport", and a bunch of them being annoyed that they had to wear helmets in at things like the X games.

There is a pretty large number of street/BMX riders that have had problems with TBI's (RIP Dave Mirra, my favorite rider back in the day). Which is a big bummer.

And there are a few sports (MX/bike trials/etc) where the visibility blockage of the chin bar is a legitimate safety issue. Generally though, I think most would agree they (FF helmets) are a step up in protection. Both for direct blow sorts of things (cuts on the face, missing/chipped teeth, etc), and because they do add a bit more coverage (mostly around the front of/bottom of the ear area, and the lower jaw).


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

jeremy3220 said:


> No I'm saying skill is a factor. Some people need full armour to hit a 2ft drop, some just need a half shell to backflip 360.


LOL


----------



## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

jeremy3220 said:


> They're different sports. Moto trials riders still wear open face helmets for the most part. Skateboarders usually don't wear helmets, snowboarders do, bmx riders often don't, DH riders do, you don't wear a helmet in your car, F1 drivers do. It's not simply a cultural issue and I don't know why you're bringing up shaming.


You're missing the point. That or being purposefully obtuse. There's a lot of similarities between MX and MTB. Both involve the fact that you're on a 2-wheeled machine riding aggressively over non-flat terrain. I don't know what media you're watching, my instagram feed is full of skateboarders and BMXers (dirt and skate park) they overwhelmingly have on helmets. Man, lots of BMXers hucking huge stair flights are in FF helmets.
I don't know why trials riders dont wear full face. Probably a visibility thing. 
You also chose to compare F1 and private car. You know it's about the risk and speed. again, I feel like this example is trolling.

I really don't set out to be a d!ck on the internet, but your entire post history in this thread basically boils down to "It's unlikely to happen, and you don't need one.

I guess my MX/MTB comparison boils down to "it's crazy to me why a sport that is inherently _quite_ dangerous would choose *less* protection on a high-stakes body part.


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

As I am getting older, not that I am not already ancient for all you young punks anyway 😭I am getting more to the point to dress for the worst or atgatt as we used to say in my young long gone and glorious motor bike years.😩


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

dysfunction said:


> Guys, it's about reasonable risk mitigation.


Yes.

Personally, I don't roll with FF on every ride, but when it gets steep, I do.

That said, if someone rolls with FF on a trail ride I'm not giving them **** either.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

jeremy3220 said:


> What sport are you talking about? XC racing? Or are you entering freeride competitions? I thought we were talking about normal trail riding.


You tell me.

You've already talked about how it's safe "For some people" to hit 360s with a half shell.

I'm at my limit of replies to silly questions so good luck with the noggin in the future.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ogre said:


> Yes.
> 
> Personally, I don't roll with FF on every ride, but when it gets steep, I do.
> 
> That said, if someone rolls with FF on a trail ride I'm not giving them **** either.


Totally agreed


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

I think many are forgetting the OP is talking about "aggressive XC." Does anyone really think a FF is needed for XC?


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

slimat99 said:


> I think many are forgetting the OP is talking about "aggressive XC." Does anyone really think a FF is needed XC?


What exactly is XC? What is aggressive XC?

I didn't realize XC precluded chunky rocky features, drops, or steep ash descents.


----------



## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

Impetus said:


> I have 2 plates in my skull above my eye and ear, 2 around my eye socket, and one in my jaw.


so if you put on another helmet it's like you have two? that's cool lol


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Ogre said:


> What exactly is XC? What is aggressive XC?
> 
> I didn't realize XC precluded chunky rocky features, drops, or steep ash descents.


XC stands for cross country


----------



## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

I guess like xc but rockier with more fun stuff? 

Every once in a while I'll drop off a rock or try to fly through a rocky/tech section or something steep with suboptimal results. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Impetus said:


> You know it's about the risk and speed.


Exactly.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

FredCoMTB said:


> I guess like xc but rockier with more fun stuff?
> 
> Every once in a while I'll drop off a rock or try to fly through a rocky/tech section or something steep with suboptimal results.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


It's all good. Nobody knows how to define riding. My opinion is a FF is overkill for anything other than the gnar. That's the popular opinion based on what we see in the real world, but in this MTBR world it seems that everyone is pedaling around in a FF. Makes me wonder how many opinions here are just about arguing because over all my years, and all the places I've rode in this country and others, I've seen maybe 5 trail riders in a FF. There's nothing wrong with doing it, just scratching my head on how this thread is counter to reality.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

ocnLogan said:


> I'd argue that BMX and skateboarders not wearing a helmet is a cultural/style thing.


That's part of it. But lots of bmx riders do wear helmets. Not surprisingly, the greater the risk the greater the protection. Full face is common in vert comps. In park comps it depends on the course style. For street riding, especially the popular tech street riding you don't see as many helmets.


----------



## iLuveKetchup (Dec 21, 2020)

I wear a full face helmet with goggles on the trail. I can't risk anything happening to this handsome face and beautiful eyes. 😁


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

slimat99 said:


> It's all good. Nobody knows how to define riding. My opinion is a FF is overkill for anything other than the gnar. That's the popular opinion based on what we see in the real world, but in this MTBR world it seems that everyone is pedaling around in a FF. Makes me wonder how many opinions here are just about arguing because over all my years, and all the places I've rode in this country and others, I've seen maybe 5 trail riders in a FF. There's nothing wrong with doing it, just scratching my head on how this thread is counter to reality.


I'd guess it's pretty location dependent.

Anecdotally, I'd say about 1/3-2/3 of riders in my area ride full faces. Depending on what day it is, which trail system we're taking about, etc.

My personal riding group is 2-4 guys. And we usually have between 2 or 3 of us in full faces on any given ride (1 guy only has a half shell, two have both a half, and FF option they might use, and I've got a convertible that's basically just a full face).

The only times I've traveled and ridden bikes (SLC area), full faces weren't as common, but I also wasn't the only one wearing one either.

But if the OP is asking about potentially safer options for "aggressive XC", where it sounds like... "downcountry" is the main riding style (sending rock drops, rock/root gardens, and crashing at "speed", then I might say to look at the Bell Super Air. It's not DH certified, but it's a definite increase in protection, and still super light and breathable (for a full face). Or maybe the fox... DropFrame? It's a funny looking half shell helmet, but it does cover more of the side of the head (ahead of/around the ears) than many other half shells.


----------



## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

slimat99 said:


> It's all good. Nobody knows how to define riding. My opinion is a FF is overkill for anything other than the gnar. That's the popular opinion based on what we see in the real world, but in this MTBR world it seems that everyone is pedaling around in a FF. Makes me wonder how many opinions here are just about arguing because over all my years, and all the places I've rode in this country and others, I've seen maybe 5 trail riders in a FF. There's nothing wrong with doing it, just scratching my head on how this thread is counter to reality.


Yeah I'd agree not too many ff helmets on the trail, but more than a decade ago for sure. However, where I ride most does have some trails you can shuttle (I don't) and some trails and lines you can take where there's no doubt a ff is a good idea, so maybe I just see more. Either way, worst thing that happens is it's awful and I sell the thing.

Might have another view if not for the bad concussion and the calcium thing, but maybe not.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Headoc (Mar 24, 2015)

Impetus said:


> This topic fascinates me every time it comes up here on MTBR. And how worked up people get over what others wear- in the vein of " I'm trail riding, it's not RedBull Rampage".
> It's crazy to me the diferences in culture between Motocross and MTB. If I showed up to the MX track (or a moto trail ride) with an open-face helmet, I'd likely get shamed into not only buying one, but even not riding until I did.
> It's crazy that so many riders will shame others for having more than what amounts to an "igloo-cooler baseball hat".
> 
> ...


Its just some folks persist on lingering stigma about stereotypes in mountain biking. XC = half shell/no visor/lycra. Trail/Am = Baggies/AM helmet. Downhill=pants/longsleeves/fullface/googles. Pretty much perpetuated by the bike companies, media, folks trying to justify a new bike to the husband/wife. (WTF is downcountry for christ sakes)

1988 had it right. Wear what you brung, shred what you can, have a beer or six and go home happy. So far as I can tell the answer to the thread "Any reason not to go full face."

1. You are sensitive to heat while you're riding
2. You're claustrophobic / it obstructs your vision
3. You don't feel like it.

As none of those things apply to me I'm gonna go ride me some downcountry trails in my full face and pants. Maybe goggles too...mirrored.


----------



## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

FredCoMTB said:


> Might have another view if not for the bad concussion and the calcium thing, but maybe not.


That stood out to me in your original post. Some of the stuff I see in this thread may be perfectly fine for folks justifying their own choices, but just don't apply at all in this thread.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

FredCoMTB said:


> Yeah I'd agree not too many ff helmets on the trail, but more than a decade ago for sure. However, where I ride most does have some trails you can shuttle (I don't) and some trails and lines you can take where there's no doubt a ff is a good idea, so maybe I just see more. Either way, worst thing that happens is it's awful and I sell the thing.


I think some folks are getting hung up on terminology.

I'd call my riding mostly cross country, but much of my routes have many of the same trails people are shuttling as well. For me it mostly means I pedal for an hour+ before I ride the same trails as someone who dropped $35 on a shuttle ride to the top. They are riding a burlier bike and likely hitting the trails faster, but we're hitting the same lines in the end and the consequence for failure is the same.

I see a ton of FF helmets on the more crowded/ shuttled trails, probably nowhere near 50%, but nobody looks at you twice if you are wearing one.


----------



## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

I ride the same trails as the OP, and see a large percentage of riders wearing FF due to the ruggedness and steepness of our trails. Even the gravel grinders need them here:


----------



## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

I wore a full face helmet and goggles for DH . (plus body armour) My worst crash was my last crash for DH... despite having a nice TLD carbon, I still broke my neck, fractured +++ vertebrae and had a severe brain bleed (plus other injuries).

Currently, I wear a TLD A1 for trail, ice and snow and enduro ... never had a crash nor hit my head since. I protect my eyes with light riding glasses. I'm happy with my gear and for me, I don't need or want to wear a ff for my rides.

I guess my point is wear what you want and what is most comfortable for your style and the type of terrain


----------



## Newbie10 (Jul 14, 2014)

I have the fox one. The weight is not noticeable. Does not get hot. The only bummer is that have to stop, take it off to drink from a water bottle. I still reach for the half shell most rides, but I’m not really sure why as there really is no reason to not add the protection.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

EABiker said:


> I ride the same trails as the OP, and see a large percentage of riders wearing FF due to the ruggedness and steepness of our trails. Even the gravel grinders need them here:
> 
> View attachment 1922634


Gravel riders wear FF where you live? I think everyone countering my comment about seeing 5 riders in FF aren't remembering I'm talking about trails as described by the OP. Just because this pic is from his local area doesn't mean it's relevant to the trails he described. Anyway, the protection you choose is up to you. I only wear one for the gnar but that's my personally choice. Scree fields on trail bikes would not be FF terrain for me, but that's fine if it is for you.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

slimat99 said:


> Gravel riders wear FF where you live? I think everyone countering my comment about seeing 5 riders in FF aren't remembering I'm talking about trails as described by the OP. Just because this pic is from his local area doesn't mean it's relevant to the trails he described. Anyway, the protection you choose is up to you. I only wear one for the gnar but that's my personally choice. Scree fields on trail bikes would not be FF terrain for me, but that's fine if it is for you.


After multiple people have tried to explain this to you and you keep ignoring them, you really start to sound a bit like a dou che.

What you think of as aggressive XC isn't necessarily what some other people think of when they hear the phrase. Tried to get this point across to you about 4 pages ago and you are either entirely clued out or being deliberately obtuse.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Ogre said:


> After multiple people have tried to explain this to you and you keep ignoring them, you really start to sound a bit like a dou che.
> 
> What you think of as aggressive XC isn't necessarily what some other people think of when they hear the phrase. Tried to get this point across to you about 4 pages ago and you are either entirely clued out or being deliberately obtuse.


I'm going on OP's description of the trails he's riding, not my definition of XC. It's you and a few others that are talking about terrain not relevant to what he described. It's not relevant to talk about riding areas with shuttle trails or pedal to gnar mixed in with easier terrain when OP said nothing about riding such trails. You are off point. I'm trying to point that out but it's not sinking in so we go in circles.


----------



## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

OP says he is mineral deficient, goes OTB often and has a history of concussions. I think he needs a full body airbag. With those pre-existing conditions, I would go with the most protection he can tolerate. I think everyone is getting into the weeds too much about all the other details and overlooking those points.

Just IMHO though.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

shakazulu12 said:


> OP says he is mineral deficient, goes OTB often and has a history of concussions. I think he needs a full body airbag. With those pre-existing conditions, I would go with the most protection he can tolerate. I think everyone is getting into the weeds too much about all the other details and overlooking those points.
> 
> Just IMHO though.


good points


----------



## FredCoMTB (Jul 25, 2020)

Lol that's exactly fair.

EAbiker is correct on the trails too. These are trails that some people shuttle and it's steep and rugged. You sometimes have the option to take a riskier route, but often that's just the only route. These aren't like the easy take-your-kid-on-a-nice-smooth-trail type XC trails.

I've raced and ridden (not DH or enduro) throughout the Mid-Atlantic (a long time ago, not in racing shape these days). These are top 3 for tough but fun. 



Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Ogre said:


> For about the 3rd time. It's not landing on the face more.
> 
> It's that landing on the face is so much worse.
> 
> I'm not worried about the little injuries I deal with that all the time, I'm worried about the less common big ones.


Exactly! It's a low probability, but high consequence thing.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Curveball said:


> Exactly! It's a low probability, but high consequence thing.


I still argue that any good risk assessment is going to include the likelihood of the event. There are a lot of potential hazards that are high consequence that you probably don't use protection for. OSHA's guidelines for hazard identification and assessment include determining the likelihood of incidents from a hazard and using it to determine priority for corrective actions.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

jeremy3220 said:


> I still argue that any good risk assessment is going to include the likelihood of the event. There are a lot of potential hazards that are high consequence that you probably don't use protection for. OSHA's guidelines for hazard identification and assessment include determining the likelihood of incidents from a hazard and using it to determine priority for corrective actions.


That’s all quite true. Regarding helmets, both my wife and I would have suffered traumatic brain injuries if not for wearing helmets. 

Regarding full-face helmets, there’s not much downside to wearing one in a cool climate. In a hotter area, it makes sense to balance the extra protection versus potential heat issues.


----------



## Newbie10 (Jul 14, 2014)

I have the fox proframe helmet. Only marginally less comfortable than 1/2 shell, but way more protected. Only issue is drinking from water bottles- have to take it off as it blocks putting to your mouth. I’d rather not deal with the convertible options. Too much messing around. For anyplace technical or fast- just slap on a light/comfortable full face and don’t think about it. Kali makes one that looks really good


----------



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Curveball said:


> That’s all quite true. Regarding helmets, both my wife and I would have suffered traumatic brain injuries if not for wearing helmets.
> 
> Regarding full-face helmets, there’s not much downside to wearing one in a cool climate. In a hotter area, it makes sense to balance the extra protection versus potential heat issues.


IMO there are no real heat issues with a modern light ff, that's jusy an excuse, it's all about simply getting used to it. 

A previous comment about one convertible ff helmet being significantly hotter is pure BS imo, I sweat exactly the same regardless and notice very little difference between helmets of the same type.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Newbie10 said:


> Only issue is drinking from water bottles- have to take it off as it blocks putting to your mouth.


I tried squirting water through the mouth vent into my mouth once. Didn't quite go as I had hoped, LOL.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

davec113 said:


> IMO there are no real heat issues with a modern light ff, that's jusy an excuse, it's all about simply getting used to it.
> 
> A previous comment about one convertible ff helmet being significantly hotter is pure BS imo, I sweat exactly the same regardless and notice very little difference between helmets of the same type.


Yeah early last year my wife wanted a full face for general trail riding so she got a Proframe. I was wondering how it would do once it got hot out... it's been hanging in the garage since last spring. We even tried the smaller cheek pads to get a bit more air flow. We already have days where it's too hot to ride regardless of what you're wearing. A helmet that covers your ears and cheeks will be hotter. 

Pinkbike just reviewed the new Giant helmet that is basically a copy of the Dropframe (open face with ear protection) and said "might be too much coverage for hotter climates".


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

davec113 said:


> IMO there are no real heat issues with a modern light ff, that's jusy an excuse, it's all about simply getting used to it.
> 
> A previous comment about one convertible ff helmet being significantly hotter is pure BS imo, I sweat exactly the same regardless and notice very little difference between helmets of the same type.


With the caveat that I haven't ridden in truly _exceptional _levels of heat with mine, I completely agree with you.

But also will say that FF helmets seem to rely on two different styles to get your fit right. Some use moto style adjustable padding in the cheek/back of head, and others use the more half shell style "rear boa" adjuster to cinch around the lower back of the head. And I can kind of see how the more "foam" based helmets could be hotter.

But the Super DH I have is the "boa" style, and I've done ~2300ft, 11 mile rides at 103-105f, and haven't had any problems (heh, other than sunburns, and running out of water). And I never felt the urge to take the helmet off while riding.

I do have a buddy though who claims that the chinbar obstructs his breathing when its hot, to the point of annoyance, and he takes it off. So its either a personal thing, or a design thing.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

davec113 said:


> IMO there are no real heat issues with a modern light ff, that's jusy an excuse, it's all about simply getting used to it.
> 
> A previous comment about one convertible ff helmet being significantly hotter is pure BS imo, I sweat exactly the same regardless and notice very little difference between helmets of the same type.


I think in hotter climates it’s something to consider. If it works for you, then that’s awesome and the extra protection is nice. 

FWIW, I have a FF helmet on the way. I also live in a cooler climate and don’t expect issues with heat. Maybe blowing my nose though.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nat said:


> I tried squirting water through the mouth vent into my mouth once. Didn't quite go as I had hoped, LOL.


I use a hydration pack and my son uses a bottle. This could be pretty funny to watch him drink when he gets the new helmet.


----------



## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

Another small issue is that they muffle hearing, yes a few times i did ride on road with my FF and it makes it harder to hear traffic.
If concussion is a concern, make sure helmet is mips (although jurybis out on how much it really helps) and definitely dual density foam.


----------



## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Newbie10 said:


> Kali makes one that looks really good


I just ordered an Invader 2.0. I switched to riding with the chin bar installed on my Super 3R for pretty much all my riding last year but I wanted something with better venting for hot summer days. First time I went FF with the group I ride with there were some comments about riding DH, but we ride 'primitive' trails with lots of rocks and trees to hit your face against so why risk it?


----------



## pinkece (Feb 3, 2021)

Everyone should wear a full face. FYI get a real full face, not one of these "light" "enduro" full face types. I wore a entry level Bell Sanction for the past 2 years and I was never uncomfortable, nor did it make me feel like my hearing or conversations I was having with it on were muffled. I've since "upgraded" to a 100% Status -- although I don't like d-rings it isn't a deal breaker.

Also of note.. the Sanction has held up great in 2 years of full time duty, I wore it on every ride. And I can easily use it for many more years. Nothing has broken on it and the inner liner shows no wear.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

pinkece said:


> Everyone should wear a full face. FYI get a real full face, not one of these "light" "enduro" full face types.


A “real” DH type full face would completely suck for trail riding unless maybe you’re only wearing it on descents. Extended climbing would be miserable.


----------



## C Smasher (Apr 20, 2012)

No, there is not reason not to go full face. Have seen too many broken teeth and broken jaws. 

With my Bell Super DH heat is not an issue for me climbing, and the chin bar is removable if it was. With my Bell Full 9 - no way in hell I would pedal in that thing.


----------



## pinkece (Feb 3, 2021)

Nat said:


> A “real” DH type full face would completely suck for trail riding unless maybe you’re only wearing it on descents. Extended climbing would be miserable.


Yet I've been using one full time for 2 years including all my climbs and in the Summer. I have no complaints.

Also I have a full head of hair, not bald yet like some of you guys 😂


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

pinkece said:


> Yet I've been using one full time for 2 years including all my climbs and in the Summer. I have no complaints.
> 
> Also I have a full head of hair, not bald yet like some of you guys 😂


Good for you. None for me, thanks.


----------

