# Concrete Examples of e-MTB Terror



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

We've experienced many "theoretical" examples of e-MTB problems from the whiners and trolls. How about some concrete examples of problems?
Please spare us the "My STRAVA time was impaired when I was going downhill at 30 mph instead of 40 mph because this guy was climbing at 6 mph instead of 4 mph" or the famous "Some guy who didn't know how to ride a bike passed me on a hill".


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

How about youtube? The site is rife with examples, some of which are already posted here.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Got "chicked" on the bike path. Skirt fluttering, big smile, holding 18 mph or so steady. Dropped the hammer( after 15 miles was more like a tack hammer) couldn't even get close. Was brutal and a sheer terror to my fragile cat 6 commuter guy ego. Nightmares. But was on pavement, not concrete. Soooo.... Not.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I've been passed by cute french girls in flipflops on my road bike in the Alps and old (ok, old like me) guys on mtbs in the Dolomites, yet I still made it home intact. Barely, it was touch and go. No personally terrifying e-mtb experiences here as I've yet to see one offroad.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

My battery almost ran out while riding single track after 25 miles, pretty terrifying, I had to manually peddle the bike for 30 feet to my Jeep, it was pure torture...terrifying episode, I really think I'm going to see a therapist about it...or maybe an extra battery strapped on my back?


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## buell (Oct 15, 2015)

*scary scary*


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## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

the haters are awefully quiet on this thread


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)




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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)




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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Bmiller71 said:


> the haters are awefully quiet on this thread


Minions in 3.. 2.. 1.. oops.. too late. ^^^^


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

When faced with facts call names. Face it, this is a non-issue. Emotorbikes are banned from most good single track with more exclusions to follow.

These are going up across the country.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Well, it's been about a day and looks like all the hyperbole and innuendo couldn't produce anything concrete. By the way, there's an e-bike that completes the quarter mile in 11 seconds at 110+ mph. Wonder how many trails have been shut down because of him.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

life behind bars said:


> When faced with facts call names. Face it, this is a non-issue. Emotorbikes are banned from most good single track with more exclusions to follow.
> 
> These are going up across the country.
> View attachment 1143284


They might be banned, but so is putting a chip on a diesel truck and removing Catalytic Converters...that worked out real well also...none of those on the rode ways?...lol...U are so FOS I smell it from here...


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

fos'l said:


> Well, it's been about a day and looks like all the hyperbole and innuendo couldn't produce anything concrete. By the way, there's an e-bike that completes the quarter mile in 11 seconds at 110+ mph. Wonder how many trails have been shut down because of him.


Yep, most are FOS as a Christmas Turkey....typical of liars and haters...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

As I'm sure you are aware, the vast majority of us are fine with ebikes riding currently legal trails. We are against them riding where motorized vehicles are banned, such as NPS trails. It is these regulations that are keeping most of the " examples of e-MTB problems" from occurring and we are looking to keep it this way. I'm sure you are also aware, out main concern is that opening that door to accepting ebikes as true bicycles will lead to issues and mtbs will be caught up in them. Please just ride your ebike where it is currently allowed, that's really all we are asking.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> As I'm sure you are aware, the vast majority of us are fine with ebikes riding currently legal trails. We are against them riding where motorized vehicles are banned, such as NPS trails. It is these regulations that are keeping most of the " examples of e-MTB problems" from occurring and we are looking to keep it this way. I'm sure you are also aware, out main concern is that opening that door to accepting ebikes as true bicycles will lead to issues and mtbs will be caught up in them. Please just ride your ebike where it is currently allowed, that's really all we are asking.


And why may we ask, why can't we ride everywhere just everyone else, what's the big deal...


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> And why may we ask, why can't we ride everywhere just everyone else, what's the big deal...


I'll go ask my kids the same question. I'll get just as meaningful answer as you get asking it here.
So guys since we are solving all of the worlds problems why can't I drive 100 on the freeway. I'm sure that someone on here has the authority to change the laws and regulations associated with that.
Anyone?
How about getting legal single track in Marin? I would love some mountain bike specific trails on Mt tam! Come on LTZ470, make it happen! I'm waiting.
I'll be back later after you have fixed all the access problems of the world.
In the meantime I'm going to load my kids up on MY E-bike and take them to the park.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> And why may we ask, why can't we ride everywhere just everyone else, what's the big deal...


You've been in these forums enough to be very aware of why. Just read your new posts in some of these and it is quite apparent you are continuing to be a troll.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

alexbn921 said:


> I'll go ask my kids the same question. I'll get just as meaningful answer as you get asking it here.
> So guys since we are solving all of the worlds problems why can't I drive 100 on the freeway. I'm sure that someone on here has the authority to change the laws and regulations associated with that.
> Anyone?
> How about getting legal single track in Marin? I would love some mountain bike specific trails on Mt tam! Come on LTZ470, make it happen! I'm waiting.
> ...


You have my permission go for it!


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

chazpat said:


> You've been in these forums enough to be very aware of why. Just read your new posts in some of these and it is quite apparent you are continuing to be a troll.


The trolls are the haters that come into this forum to specifically create animosity and more hate toward emtb's...is that clear enough TROLL...lol...


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

LTZ470 said:


> You have my permission go for it!


Great that makes me feel better about doing something that I'm legally allowed to. You sure fixed that problem in my life. Now that you have all this free time, you can move on to the rest of the things that bug you. Or you continue to harass people that have no control over the issue. Hell you should go yell at some random people riding bikes just to prove your point and make yourself feel better. I'm sure it would have a profound and positive effect on E-bike access. :thumbsup:


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Thanks for helping make the case for continuing exclusions.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

life behind bars said:


> Thanks for helping make the case for continuing exclusions.


Thank the op for starting such an informative thread.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Fellow here who is a professional Baja 500 truck racer put together a... don't know, had to be 3kw+ setup (you could hear the high pitched whine from about 1/2 mile away) and was blasting around various trails on it. I don't know that he terrorized anyone, but he annoyed the hell out of a lot of people and was riding 15-20mph uphill (he STRAVA'd his rides, though the account is now deleted) on our local trails. I encountered/confronted him a couple of times and he'd make up ridiculous stories about how local trail organizations had specifically told him it was fine and such. 

He was personally a big reason that the Basin is putting up signs everywhere.

So, not much of a story of terror. But certainly a story of someone not being very responsible, and of someone from a moto background seeing an e-bike as a way to get onto trails they otherwise can't. Both probably not good things.

-Walt


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I have! He had a **** ton of excuses. Most of which applied to me. I'm 40, yep so am I. I have 2 kids, Yep 3. I work construction, yep me too.
I told him they weren't allowed anywhere in the the area. He just said he knew and looked down. I could tell he felt like a tool and I didn't even want to talk to him. Not my place to enforce anything, although the next day a cop was sitting up at the top watching everyone.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

L, thanks for the great examples; didn't know about the plethora of models, but AFAICT none satisfies the e-bike definition in CA; they would need to be licensed, insured and not allowed on bike paths or, even where it's currently legal (Santa Monica Mountain Parks, at least) for Class 1 e-MTB, be prohibited.
W, finally an example of "terror"; the bike you describe "sounds" like it has a motor used by RC-types and has a minimum of 4 hp (there are a couple of guys with kits converting these for e-MTB, but the noise puts me off - well, that and the fact they're illegal); again not an example of a legal bike causing a problem. 
These examples are no different than an ICE "bike" out on the trails, which I've encountered a few times over the years when on my MTB.
L, since I'm not the confrontational type unless my family is impacted, I just reported the incident to the authorized organization.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I have yet to see a legal (or, to be more clear, 250w) e-bike on our trails, Fos'l. There are a ton of Pedego bikes on the bike path but Summit county has specifically banned motors (doesn't matter if you pedal) from all singletrack. So far the local shops are doing a good job informing people of where they can/can't ride, so I don't anticipate we'll see many/any - or have any problems.

Then again there's an electric fatbike on sale at the grocery store down the street now for $700. I'm guessing those folks won't be informing potential buyers about the ins and outs of trail access. Then again I'm not sure someone would buy one and take it on an actual trail.

As I've said before, the old and slow folks who want their knees to hurt less were never going to be a problem. How you keep the bikes (and riders, if fit/fast people decide they want to shred the climbs) at normal MTB speeds going forward is the bigger issue. That, and people who are really moto folks trying to slap pedals on to get onto no-moto trails. 

-Walt


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I have not seen nor heard of any stories of eBikes causing terror on the trails... but I have also only ever seen one eBike in my local trail system and it was being ridden by someone in my group.

Lemonaid - I delete all your pictures as that was way off topic and not helpful to this discussion. If you want to post pictures of all those bikes feel free to start your own thread about it, please do not derail this one.


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

This is the only crash story I've read.

http://forums.mtbr.com/turner/chris...ed-head-collision-withe-ebike-ca-1043549.html

Still don't know how you crash into each other.

Never dip a corner on public trails, you never know what will be around the corner.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> These examples are no different than an ICE "bike" out on the trails, which I've encountered a few times over the years when on my MTB.


I think they are different, the pedals and other similarities to bicycles and e-bikes gives them a potential pass to areas they weren't meant to be by posing as a class 1 e-bike. With rapidly advancing technology some pretty hot machines are likely to be available relatively soon that won't look a whole lot different than a regular mountain bike, especially to a non-biker. No one is going to mistake a YZ125 for a bicycle or an e-bike.

I'm not suggesting that's fair or anything but just pointing out how it's different (IMO) than your ICE example, and just one more thing to consider before opening more sensitive areas to motors.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

JB, I agree "DON'T OPEN TRAILS TO e-MTB's IF IT MIGHT IMPAIR MTB ACCESS". Also, you're correct that pretty soon you won't be able to tell e-MTB from MTB; that may be the biggest problem currently facing MTB. My statement was that if individuals are going to ride illegally, that's different from legal systems being used where they're permitted..


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> JB, I agree "DON'T OPEN TRAILS TO e-MTB's IF IT MIGHT IMPAIR MTB ACCESS". Also, you're correct that pretty soon you won't be able to tell e-MTB from MTB; that may be the biggest problem currently facing MTB. My statement was that if individuals are going to ride illegally, that's different from legal systems being used where they're permitted..


For most non riders, there's 2 types of mtbs, the regular ones, and the ones with really big tires. If it's quiet, expecting anyone, even most mtb riders to know this is an ebike, is very unlikely. We're way past big battery pods on down tubes and motors bolted to bottom brackets.

Bosch PowerTube 500 introduced - Integrated Battery for all Bosch Motors | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

That new Bosch design is nice.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> I have not seen nor heard of any stories of eBikes causing terror on the trails... but I have also only ever seen one eBike in my local trail system and it was being ridden by someone in my group.
> 
> Lemonaid - I delete all your pictures as that was way off topic and not helpful to this discussion. If you want to post pictures of all those bikes feel free to start your own thread about it, please do not derail this one.


How do you figure it was off topic? If anything what you did was akin to censorship. What i posted was to make a point that you can't tell the difference between e bikes and motor bikes with pedals. A point that some people cant grasp as you can tell from the ops response after seeing the pictures. I was ask you to kindly recovet what i spent my time to post.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Also what i posted what entirely ON topic. The op asked for concrete examples. I posted them.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> JB, I agree "DON'T OPEN TRAILS TO e-MTB's IF IT MIGHT IMPAIR MTB ACCESS"


You're not agreeing with me because that's not my focus, I simply want there to remain plenty of open spaces that are motor-free, and ideally I'd like to be able to ride my bicycle in some of them.

I've said it before and I'll repeat myself, if it were my decision and the choices were either to admit e-bikes everywhere bicycles are allowed or to ban bicycles *and* e-bikes on all non-motorized trails I'd choose the latter even though that would result in me giving up my favorite pastime.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

OK, guess I should have stated it differently since I don't give a crap whether e-bikes are on the trail or not no matter what I'm riding. The only problems that I've ever had were several instances when I was almost center-punched or had a head on collision with an out of control downhill rider while I was ascending on an MTB. What I meant was to let the constabulary decide; I'll ride where allowed. Anyone doesn't like it, TS.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> OK, guess I should have stated it differently since I don't give a crap whether e-bikes are on the trail or not no matter what I'm riding. The only problems that I've ever had were several instances when I was almost center-punched or had a head on collision with an out of control downhill rider while I was ascending on an MTB. What I meant was to let the constabulary decide; I'll ride where allowed. Anyone doesn't like it, TS.


You seem irritated, I guess maybe I would be too if out of control downhillers kept coming after me  I only ride where allowed as well but actually I do care what other users think about it, thankfully we all seem to get along pretty well for now.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I scared the crap out of myself on my eMTB last week, does that count?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Walt said:


> Fellow here who is a professional Baja 500 truck racer put together a... don't know, had to be 3kw+ setup (you could hear the high pitched whine from about 1/2 mile away) and was blasting around various trails on it. I don't know that he terrorized anyone, but he annoyed the hell out of a lot of people and was riding 15-20mph uphill (he STRAVA'd his rides, though the account is now deleted) on our local trails. I encountered/confronted him a couple of times and he'd make up ridiculous stories about how local trail organizations had specifically told him it was fine and such.
> 
> He was personally a big reason that the Basin is putting up signs everywhere.
> 
> ...


 Whenever I come across this sort of clown on ES, I always try to read them the riot act citing just this sort of outcome of their scofflaw attitudes. It can't hurt to let them know how some of us feel.


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## kmj831 (Apr 4, 2014)

This thread is funny.

So basically e-mtb (electric motor bike) riders suffer from exactly what we are afraid of; the inability to cognitively extrapolate future potentiality based on known past precedent, history and patterns. Basically, the argument is "we will ignore all facts appertaining to user group politics, land use and access issues, anti MTB lobbies (hikers/horses etc) and while squeezing our eyes shut and sticking our fingers in our ears, we'll scream_ we won't believe you until we've gotten your riding area's shut down_!!" (that's the proof they need, after all).

Great. Exactly what I was afraid of.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I think (Fos'l, thanks) that just a simple statement saying something like, "hey, I want to ride my stock 250W e-bike on normal mountain bike trails. But if problems start happening because of e-bikes, I'd rather give up my e-bike than hurt trail access." would really help. Even better would be if the various manufacturers said the same thing - "we're selling these, but if you guys start modifying them and being jerks, we'll stop building them and lead the effort to ban them."

I've said before during debates about shuttling and long travel/high tech freeride bikes that I'd happily give up suspension and disc brakes and tubeless 29x3" tires and ride some old beater before I'd give up my favorite trails. The trails are what matter to me, not really the bike I'm riding on them. I'd hope that folks with e-bikes feel the same way. 

I don't *want* bikes to get so fast and so good that they can't share space with hikers because that will mean that bikes won't be allowed anywhere except off in the boonies and at ski resort bike parks. In point of fact I spend a lot of time around here riding a pretty craptacular singlespeed with not much technology on it at all - because it *feels* fast to ride without *being* all that fast and tempting me to crank around blind corners at 20mph. 

I rode with a buddy on a super high end 150mm trail bike with a dropper and all the bells and whistles the other day who is a great rider and a very nice guy who yields to everyone and has great trail manners - and he almost ran someone down around a blind corner, because that bike just makes the terrain we were on so easy that he didn't feel like he was going fast at all. I, on the other hand, was totally gripped trying to just keep him in sight and was going *slower* objectively but subjectively *feeling* like I was just hauling ass. 

-Walt


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I didn't originate this thread in order to increase access for e-MTB's. This is a stand alone subject for submitting instances where legal e-MTB's caused a problem. I've stated many times that I'm a MTB rider first, ride my MTB 80-90% of the time and would not ride my e-MTB even on legal trails if I thought it would impair MTB access. However, the prevaricating e-negatives want to keep accusing me of actions they know are untrue. Personally I've come to hope that e-MTB's don't become mainstream and face the possibility of more legislative scrutiny.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I was out yeasterday and came up on a ebikes coming down the hill. He had stopped to negotiate a hairpin turn and move out of our way. I was going to say something to him, but we where both on an unsanctioned trail and he was 70 plus on a ebike that looked home built. The guys I was with commented that is was nice to see someone that old getting out and I had to agree.


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

fos'l said:


> I didn't originate this thread in order to increase access for e-MTB's. This is a stand alone subject for submitting instances where legal e-MTB's caused a problem. I've stated many times that I'm a MTB rider first, ride my MTB 80-90% of the time and would not ride my e-MTB even on legal trails if I thought it would impair MTB access. However, the prevaricating e-negatives want to keep accusing me of actions they know are untrue. Personally I've come to hope that e-MTB's don't become mainstream and face the possibility of more legislative scrutiny.


I think some of the push back from non bike riders (hikers and horse back riders) is due to down hillers riding at crazy speeds. Those guys could seriously hurt someone.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Sharp things said:


> I think some of the push back from non bike riders (hikers and horse back riders) is due to down hillers riding at crazy speeds. Those guys could seriously hurt someone.


Agreed. This is a cogent argument that is used against mountain bikers. Trail design along with some directional trails could fix alot of these negative interactions.
This is a different discussion then ebikes though. It's everyone's responsibly to ride within there limits and be courteous on the trails.
Civil disobedience is different from being an ass hat too.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

alexbn921 said:


> This is a different discussion then ebikes though. It's everyone's responsibly to ride within there limits and be courteous on the trails.


No, it's exactly the same discussion. Some tends to categorize all ebikers as evil but as for everything you only have a few that bring issues.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

eFat said:


> No, it's exactly the same discussion. Some tends to categorize all ebikers as evil but as for everything you only have a few that bring issues.


Ebikes are not mountain bike that's the man difference. Just like ICE mopeds are not bikes.


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

alexbn921 said:


> Agreed. This is a cogent argument that is used against mountain bikers. Trail design along with some directional trails could fix alot of these negative interactions.
> *This is a different discussion then ebikes though.* It's everyone's responsibly to ride within there limits and be courteous on the trails.
> Civil disobedience is different from being an ass hat too.


No it's not. The big push back I hear from the people here who ride regular mountain bikes is the fear of losing access to trails. I would say that down hillers are more prevalent, thus more of a 'possible issue' than any Class 1 e-bike.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Having the ability to easily restart on a hill means it is easier for an ebiker to stop and yield when climbing. Conservation of momentum is not such a big deal and having power assist means you don't pay much of a price for being courteous.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> Having the ability to easily restart on a hill means it is easier for an ebiker to stop and yield when climbing. Conservation of momentum is not such a big deal and having power assist means you don't pay much of a price for being courteous.


Have you ridden an Ebike? They have a minimum speed before assisting so they don't take off on there own. With all the extra weight they are in fact much harder to start on a hill.



Sharp things said:


> No it's not. The big push back I hear from the people here who ride regular mountain bikes is the fear of losing access to trails. I would say that down hillers are more prevalent, thus more of a 'possible issue' than any Class 1 e-bike.


I agree that stupid people will always be and are a problem. See how easy that was.
I don't claim to be a hiker, because I'm using human power only.
We are separate groups.

I not agree that ebikes are bicycles anymore than electric motorcycles are bicycles. As far as access that is a different topic and needs to be advocated separately. This is not just a major disconnect between ebikers and human powered bikers, but the rest of the land use community as well.

ebiker advocates seem only to say that the motor doesn't matter and have no other stance on the subject. You will always have push back on that subjective "fact".


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> Having the ability to easily restart on a hill means it is easier for an ebiker to stop and yield when climbing. Conservation of momentum is not such a big deal and having power assist means you don't pay much of a price for being courteous.


I've never really thought of yielding on a climb as paying any sort of price, usually I'm thankful for the forced break. Then again there was that time when I was going for a KOM and was interrupted by some hikers and their dogs, of course I kicked the dogs and spit on their owners while screaming "STRAVA!" at the top of my lungs, gotta uphold the image.....


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## kmj831 (Apr 4, 2014)

Rate of speed of a mountain bike is an ancillary argument offered up by some hikers and horse people who don't like being "startled" or who feel like they have to dive off the trail in a hurry when they hear you coming. But it is not the thrust or the crux of the main argument against our presence on the trail, and it's really a bit juvenile to try and equate the speed of DH riders to the issues that ebikes will present to trail access. They are not the same, for many reasons.

First, barrier to entry - Downhill bike or not, it takes acquired skill to haul a$$, up or down. Skill acquisition takes time, and time in the sport generally lends to learning trail etiquette, protocol and gaining some understanding of the politics, while gaining bike handling skills and fitness.

Ebikes lower the barrier to entry, and will and are putting more people on the trail who have not had to put the time in to earn the skills on the bike, or to learn and understand the sport, trail advocacy and use issues, trail etiquette and a general reverence for the whole thing.

I've asked a lot of my friends to try mountain biking. Few do, and fewer still stick with it. Why? Because it's hard. Because in general, you have to _earn your turns_. The more you lower the barrier to entry, the more people you will get in the sport who didn't care enough about the sport to do it until it was "easy". And that is never good for the sport in the long run. People who wont earn something, rarely respect it.

Second, those opposed to mountain bikes on the trail typically make use of two basic arguments; 1.) that we cause more damage to the trail than their user group, and as such this presents an enviro problem and 2.) that we don't meet the intended purpose of public lands (see wilderness designation politics) and that is to enjoy them in the most primitive, self powered and simple way possible. You see, it's easy to make the argument that my dirt bike doesn't fit that definition, and that I ruin their "pristine outdoor" user experience with my highly mechanized ride. I don't like that, and I do a lot of trail advocacy with the FS and BLM on the moto side, but I get that there need to be places where I don't go with my dirt bike. The MTB though is different. It is quiet, extremely simple design (even our high end carbon iterations) and wholly self/human powered. The tech level of a MTB is really on par with most high end hiking and climbing gear, so that argument is, in many instances, a wash for hikers. Horses, while their riders can't admit it, do more trail damage than hikers or MTB's and are obviously not human powered, though they meet the definition of primitive.

E-bikes give our opposing groups the green light to say "see, I told you so, MTB'rs aren't and never were actually about pristine trail usage, simple self powered use or respect for the trail and if we give an inch, they will take a mile and constantly try and introduce tech that will ruin the experience for everyone else, and ruin trails" and if we embrace e-bikes, they will be right.

Want to ride an ebike? Older, injured and don't want to have to grind it out on the pedals? Cool, ride the trails where I ride my moto-bike. That's what they're for. Stay off MTB trails, because you're not on a MTB, you're on a hybrid.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

alexbn921 said:


> Have you ridden an Ebike? They have a minimum speed before assisting so they don't take off on there own. With all the extra weight they are in fact much harder to start on a hill.


How may e-bikes have you ridden?

A few are like you say but most start on hills just fine.

Especially the ones with throttles (Do you know what a Class 2 is?)


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I've ridden 10+ ebikes and have a class 2 ebike in my garage that I built. My parents also have had 4 ebikes. The latest of which I helped them pick out.
It's hard to go to the Sea Otter Classic and not ride an ebike.
I'm an electrical engineer with 25 years in the RC hobby. I fully understand what the motors and batteries are capable of.
My kids also have some modified power wheels that will do burn outs and wheelie. They are required to wear helmets and I have an override switch built in.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

alexbn921 said:


> I've ridden 10+ ebikes and have a class 2 ebike in my garage that I built. My parents also have had 4 ebikes. The latest of which I helped them pick out.
> It's hard to go to the Sea Otter Classic and not ride an ebike.
> I'm an electrical engineer with 25 years in the RC hobby. I fully understand what the motors and batteries are capable of.
> My kids also have some modified power wheels that will do burn outs and wheelie. They are required to wear helmets and I have an override switch built in.


I guess if you have a hard time starting on hills you need to practice more.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Last night I had a dream that I went for a mountain bike ride and discovered that electric bike operators had paved all the trails, it was terrifying! :eekster:


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

LOL. Scary indeed.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Moe Ped said:


> I guess if you have a hard time starting on hills you need to practice more.


There are several different sensing and drive systems on the market. 
Bionx for example has a 5kph assistance start speed. Other cadance based bikes require several rotations of the pedals before assistance starts.
It is hard enough to get a bike started on a steep hill without adding 30+ extra pounds to it.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

alexbn921 said:


> There are several different sensing and drive systems on the market.
> Bionx for example has a 5kph assistance start speed. Other cadance based bikes require several rotations of the pedals before assistance starts.
> It is hard enough to get a bike started on a steep hill without adding 30+ extra pounds to it.


Are you trying to justify why you don't stop for other trail users when you're going uphill on your e-bike?

Since you're an engineer you should do the math:

170 lbs standard man + 30 lbs regular bike = 200 lbs; standard man = 250 watts

170 lbs standard man + 60 lbs e-bike = 230 lbs; standard man on e-bike = 500 watts (250 watts + 250 watt (at least) motor)

Get back to us on the power to weight ratios.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

alexbn921 said:


> I've ridden 10+ ebikes and have a class 2 ebike in my garage that I built. My parents also have had 4 ebikes. The latest of which I helped them pick out.
> It's hard to go to the Sea Otter Classic and not ride an ebike.
> I'm an electrical engineer with 25 years in the RC hobby. I fully understand what the motors and batteries are capable of.
> My kids also have some modified power wheels that will do burn outs and wheelie. They are required to wear helmets and I have an override switch built in.


Ok, I want to see some vids of the power wheels doing burn outs and wheelies!


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Moe Ped said:


> Are you trying to justify why you don't stop for other trail users when you're going uphill on your e-bike?
> 
> Since you're an engineer you should do the math:
> 
> ...


Approximately 50% of the ebikes require you to be moving before assisting. So your math is off on the starting portion. :skep:

I don't ride an ebike on the trails. But my local trail that I mountain bike on are 17%+.
I do however tow the kids in a burley and with 100lb on the back, anything over 4% it's almost impossible to get the whole contraption going. Part of the reason is that you pedal an ebike in a higher gear with a lower cadence.
Anyway I yield where appropriate and an a generally nice guys to be around. :thumbsup:


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Been a couple of weeks, but the ignoramuses who claim that trails are being shut down and individuals are getting brutalized have no examples of legal e-MTB's being banned (except in places where they're already prohibited) or causing any problems. As stated before --- hyperbole and innuendo.


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## kmj831 (Apr 4, 2014)

fos'l said:


> hyperbole and innuendo.


Or common sense, prior experience, past precedent and a little deductive reasoning. But you rock on with your logical fallacies.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> Been a couple of weeks, but the ignoramuses who claim that trails are being shut down and individuals are getting brutalized have no examples of legal e-MTB's being banned (except in places where they're already prohibited) or causing any problems. As stated before --- hyperbole and innuendo.


I don't have anything personally, as I stated way back in the beginning of the thread since emtbs don't really exist here and can't be banned from trails they were never allowed on in the first place.

There's this from OZ: 'Our trails aren't built for that': eBike riders risk fines in Canberra nature parks

And there's been tons of problems in Asia and Israel, since there's millions of them, many just scooters with pedals, as well as developing issues with speedelecs (class 3 here) on bike paths in Europe.

Regardless though, I agree with your premise, you're not going to hear much about anyone on an emtbs terrorizing the public. For one reason, it's not going to happen often, and for the other, unless it's a major incident, it'll never make the news or web. Having been involved behind the scenes with mtb advocacy for years, I hear about idiot mountain bikers doing stupid things that hardly anyone else will ever know about, and even that is a small percentage of the poor interactions users have with each other, since most never are reported.

There are two ways mtbers, and by extension emtbers, can damage their communities, one is by doing something that garners a lot of attention, a major illegal trail build for example, and the other is by a thousand cuts. If Joe blow hiker gets blown by every single time he's on the trails, you'll develop an enemy, no matter how many times he's passed politely.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harry, thanks for the information. I had heard of the Asian problems, but thought it was mostly congestion from commuters, but didn't know about the concerns in Europe although sounds like those are commuter-related too. There are two bike paths in OC that prohibit e-bikes which are the first instances of this that I know of here. What I was mostly after were the idiotic "Trails are being closed all over" or "E-MTB's are causing all kinds of problems" comments. As I've said before, FOR ME and anyone else I've ever asked, the biggest problem is the fools who descend too fast and don't have the requisite skills.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> Been a couple of weeks, but the ignoramuses who claim that trails are being shut down and individuals are getting brutalized have no examples of legal e-MTB's being banned (except in places where they're already prohibited) or causing any problems. As stated before --- hyperbole and innuendo.


I've followed a lot of these threads and have't seen any ignoramuses claiming that trails are being shut down and individuals are being terrorized by electric bike enthusiasts, I have read a few saying that could be a possibility though.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Keep looking; I didn't make the statement out of the blue. How about the "closing speed" fiasco? With apologies to Fantasy Island, I can see Tattoo and Mr Roarke ascending on an e-tandem and Tattoo saying "Da closing speed, boss, da closing speed". Sorry, guess I'm showing my age. To be fair, I'm fast at neither ascents nor descents, so?????


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## Oscello (Sep 29, 2016)

This article has one very brief example of a "Concrete Example of Terror".

https://www.cnet.com/news/electric-mountain-bikes-charge-trails-sea-otter-emtb-race/



> Class 3 bikes boost up to 28mph -- though one rider I spoke to boasted of his computer-savvy friend's success jailbreaking a Specialized bike to lift its limit to 48mph


It does not say that any accidents have occurred from that one user but I'm sure you can agree that he is not the only one that has done this and that you do not want someone coming at you at those kinds of speeds.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> Keep looking; I didn't make the statement out of the blue. How about the "closing speed" fiasco? With apologies to Fantasy Island, I can see Tattoo and Mr Roarke ascending on an e-tandem and Tattoo saying "Da closing speed, boss, da closing speed". Sorry, guess I'm showing my age.


Apparently the use of hyperbole and innuendo isn't limited to the "antis".


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> Harry, thanks for the information. I had heard of the Asian problems, but thought it was mostly congestion from commuters, but didn't know about the concerns in Europe although sounds like those are commuter-related too. There are two bike paths in OC that prohibit e-bikes which are the first instances of this that I know of here. What I was mostly after were the idiotic "Trails are being closed all over" or "E-MTB's are causing all kinds of problems" comments. As I've said before, FOR ME and anyone else I've ever asked, the biggest problem is the fools who descend too fast and don't have the requisite skills.


The Asia problem is a combination of the facts that they're cheap, relatively fast and people ride them everywhere, the wrong way on streets, on sidewalks, it's just chaos and pedestrians get mowed down and killed, cars run them over, etc. Variations on the same have happened in Israel and in various tourist towns where they're rented and clueless people ride them on boardwalks and crowded pedestrian paths, leading them to get the boot.

The EU issues that are coming up are S pedelecs are being ridden on bike paths where they are generally not allowed and with the increased speeds, there's been an increase in more severe injuries, same with pedelcs too. Old people crashing mostly.

All those are commuting related though, not emtb. I suppose there could be an increase in injuries with emtbs if we see an increase in newbies on them getting in over their head? I doubt it'll happen though, I think almost all emtbs will be ridden by experienced mtb riders and maybe some guys with a moto background. What do I know though right?

I think in most places the mtb community is so firmly established that it's unlikely that emtbs will cause trail loss for mtbs except in very isolated cases, like a specific trail maybe. There would be mobs with pitchforks if that was the case and land managers in general are supportive of mtbs. I think it's likely though that emtbs could lose access to some trails they have access to now either as emtbs become less bike like with increased impact or increased user conflicts. The existence of emtbs will certainly make it harder to get future trails built in problematic locations. They're great ammo for those who don't like bikes.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Harryman said:


> The Asia problem is a combination of the facts that they're cheap, relatively fast and people ride them everywhere, the wrong way on streets, on sidewalks, it's just chaos and pedestrians get mowed down and killed, cars run them over, etc. Variations on the same have happened in Israel and in various tourist towns where they're rented and clueless people ride them on boardwalks and crowded pedestrian paths, leading them to get the boot.
> 
> The EU issues that are coming up are S pedelecs are being ridden on bike paths where they are generally not allowed and with the increased speeds, there's been an increase in more severe injuries, same with pedelcs too. Old people crashing mostly.
> 
> All those are commuting related though, not emtb.


I wonder if the rise in these incidents will lead any lawmakers in those area's to consider forcing those Road going eBikes to get licensed and insured? IMO if those things can go over 20mph on the street, the rider should have an M2 Drivers License and be insured and the vehicle should be registered.

Sorta Surprised more governments have not latched onto these as a tax generating item.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

The short answer is yes.

Hanoi police blast student bikers - News VietNamNet

Taiwan to introduce e-bike licensing and helmet law | road.cc

China Bans E-Bike Use in Major Cities - Bike Europe

Electric Bikes to be Banned from Taipei Sidewalks and Bike Lanes | ICRT Blog

China's Relationship With E-Bikes: It's Complicated

https://cyclingindustry.news/taiwan...ic-bike-clampdown-new-certification-required/

E-bike users may have to wear helmets, cabinet sources say - DutchNews.nl

Israel Police recommend new regulations on electric bikes, after uptick in injuries - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

Electric bikes a safety risk as some cyclists flout regulations - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

No Cookies | Gold Coast Bulletin


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Apparently the use of hyperbole and innuendo isn't limited to the "antis".


Try reading this thread again; if you can't find it this time, shame on you. Need a hint? One example is about signs going up all over the country with no back up.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ok, Fos'l, I have one. With a few caveats:
-Not class 1. This guy was an obvious moto dude (who wears full length sleeves, pants, and a fullface in July in Hawaii?) and the bike had a huge external moto chain connecting the motor to the cranks/drivetrain. 
-I wasn't on a bike. I was running. And I was semi-lost/unfamiliar with the trails. I don't *think* I was doing anything dumb (ie running up a flow trail just to be a jerk) but you never know. I'm not a local in Haleiwa. 

My wife and I ran past an intersection at the top of a 200 yard ~5% grade fire road, then turned around to run back because we wanted to go the other way. E-bike guy came *flying* up the fire road and around the corner at exactly the same time to dive into some singletrack we were headed for at about 20 mph. Totally silent (nice quiet setup, at least). Missed us by about 5 feet, so not "terrifying". But if I'd had my kids with me (people do hike at the Pupukea trails with their kids) I think I'd have knocked him off his bike and beat him up. Someone would have been badly hurt if we'd turned around 2 seconds sooner.

To me, this just reinforces that class 1 is probably fine but the modders and slippery slope to moto people getting into e-bikes is the BIG problem we should *all* be fighting regardless of your feelings about motors/no motors.

-Walt


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

fos'l said:


> What I was mostly after were the idiotic "Trails are being closed all over" or "E-MTB's are causing all kinds of problems" comments.





fos'l said:


> Try reading this thread again; if you can't find it this time, shame on you. Need a hint? One example is about signs going up all over the country with no back up.


Still not finding anyone actually said these quotes you posted. Seems like everyone else is just having a discussion, except maybe that one ebiker that I have blocked (not you obviously).


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

life behind bars said:


> When faced with facts call names. Face it, this is a non-issue. Emotorbikes are banned from most good single track with more exclusions to follow.
> 
> These are going up across the country.
> View attachment 1143284


This is just one example. I'm not going to scour the threads for individuals with poor reading comprehension or deficient memories. If you look back you'll find comment(s) about trails being closed to e-bikes all over the country with no examples. That's what I was addressing.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> This is just one example. I'm not going to scour the threads for individuals with poor reading comprehension or deficient memories. If you look back you'll find comment(s) about trails being closed to e-bikes all over the country with no examples. That's what I was addressing.


That post doesn't say anything about trails being closed down or people being brutalized by e-bikes and neither do any others that I've read. Maybe you have some memory or reading comprehension issues?


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

I was in Sedona riding pavement to the trailhead when I witnessed a old guy on a rental e-bike collide with a car. That is pretty much terror for him and the driver.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

fos'l said:


> This is just one example. I'm not going to scour the threads for individuals with poor reading comprehension or deficient memories. If you look back you'll find comment(s) about trails being closed to e-bikes all over the country with no examples. That's what I was addressing.


You claim this yet it seems you are the one with "no examples". Learn when to punt.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> If you look back you'll find comment(s) about trails being closed to e-bikes all over the country with no examples.


You're right that trails aren't being closed to e-bikes all over the country but that's only because they were never open to them in the first place. Posting no e-bike signs isn't the same as kicking them out, you can't be booted if you were never in.

I think it's accurate to say that the majority of non-motorized trails are legally closed to e-bikes as of now but I expect this to change over time.


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## Ricisan (Aug 30, 2006)

This drama has already been played out on our ski slopes. The Black Diamond expert slopes fed into the Green Intermediate slopes and so on. It isn't a question of power but of judgement and appropriateness. 

Expert skiers were coming off the mountain at insane speeds, sometimes colliding with less experienced skiers with horrible results. 

So what did the ski resorts do? Did they put a speed limit on the slopes or did they limit the length of ski you could use?

I like to ski the black runs, but I have to be aware of people who are doing their best just to remain upright. To blast down the slope would be like doing 80 mph in rush hour traffic. It just is not safe.

The end result was for skiers to be responsible and aware of the rights of others. That seemed to solve the problem, Ski Patrol who observe dangerous and irresponsible behavior take that persons lift ticket and they are asked to leave.

I guess that is too simple for people who are so emotionally wrapped up in the conflict.
They are not looking for a solution, they want Victory!

JMHO

R


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Ricisan said:


> This drama has already been played out on our ski slopes. The Black Diamond expert slopes fed into the Green Intermediate slopes and so on. It isn't a question of power but of judgement and appropriateness.
> 
> Expert skiers were coming off the mountain at insane speeds, sometimes colliding with less experienced skiers with horrible results.
> 
> ...


They already banned snowmobiles


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ricisan said:


> This drama has already been played out on our ski slopes......................
> 
> JMHO
> 
> R


Do those ski slopes have horseback riders on them? Hikers seeking solace? Wildlife? Are they 2 ft. wide singletrack?

Totally different deal.


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## Ricisan (Aug 30, 2006)

For those that will not play nice, plan on a time out!


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## jeremy283 (Jan 22, 2017)

This was too easy


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## jeremy283 (Jan 22, 2017)

Would you like to see more?


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

It's a Murica problem not an E-bike problem. The hatred all stems from the shitty US trail advocacy system and the typical butthurt complaints and law suits Murican's love so much.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I buy stuff from Hi power cycles and Luna cycles both great companies I have worked with my local Mt bike club and the parks dpt to open our trails to some e bikes , after seeing some of HP cycles videos I e mailed Chris Hunt one of the owners of HP. To complain about how they was showing Hi power e cycles on Mt bike trails what Mt biker wouldn't complain? that's the last thing we e bikers that are trying to get access to local trails need e bikes on Mt bike trails is a sensitive subject to land mangers .


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## Mluisgr81 (Feb 11, 2013)

There's no question that ebikes are here to stay. Just look at Europe. They are becoming pretty popular there. I personally don't have one and don't think I'll ever get one. My reasoning is that one of the best examples as to why I love mountain biking is because it's a give and take hobby. I bust my tail to get to the top of climbs to reek the benefits of then going downhill. Work hard to then have fun hard. Not to mention the exercise is just good for you. 
That being said, there is a place for ebikes imo. I have a cousin who's 34 and had 2 knee replacements who used to enjoy mountain biking but cannot anymore for fear of blowing out a knee again. For those people, I don't see any issue in them using an ebikes to assist. Even those who are older in their 70s and just don't have the stamina for climbs, I could accept the use of ebikes. 
What ticks me off, is seeing people who have never mountain biked before (and those people are out there) getting an e mountain bike and riding recklessly on trails with no trail manners, whipping through corners and dh sections with no regards to other riders and hikers. Even more annoying are those who ride and laugh at everyone else putting in decent effort on climbs. The nerve.
I love mountain biking because typically, the people engaged in the activity understand that you put in the legwork, you get rewarded in turn with nice dh sections and flowy sections. When did laziness become part of mountain biking?
And those videos up above are proof that riders with powerful motors can screw up trail systems that people put so many man hours in to build. Who's not to say people will modify their ebikes to be faster? That's a legitimate fear and bad news for trail systems. So yes, ebikes can destroy trails. At least modified or home built ones can.
Again, I see their place in mountain biking for certain people, but for the masses, I think it's ridiculous.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

I believe that any discussion about banning eBikes from any trails is absurd and ridiculous without considering the class of eBikes. 

Honda has made implications that the current group of dirtbikes will be the last generation of internal combustion engine dirt bikes. They see the future of dirtbikes is in electric dirt bikes. But to put something like that in the same category as a class 1 eBike is like putting a person in the same category as a murderer simply because he is the same gender as a murderer.

This is just another example of how technology is evolving WAY faster than government can restrict it. So, the knee jerk reaction is to just restrict everything. This stifles technology and harms us all.

I have yet to see anyone provide any rational argument as to why a class 1 eBike should be banned from any MTB trail. All I have seen is the brain dead argument, "it has a motor!" I'd expect this kind of nonsense from a layperson who never gets off of his couch, but it disappoints me that it actually comes from the MTB community.

While a class 1 eBike is absolutely no more harmful to the environment or anyone else than a conventional MTB, I do see how it I VERY harmful to push them onto dirtbike trails. All one has to do to understand this is drive down a busy interstate at 70mph and run up onto the one guy driving 45. Restricting class 1 bikes to trails used predominantly by dirtbikers is a huge danger. So, why don't we just ban all class 1 bikes because they don't seem to fit in any of our little compartments?

This luddite mentality that ignores the benefits of advancing technology would have us restrict interstate phone calls because they are "long distance", or restrict personal use of RC airplanes without a pilot's license because they are "aircraft", or ban the use of automated parking/driving cars for similar reasons.

We should be embracing technology as it has the potential to make all our lives better. While I don't suggest there should be no regulation at all, I am saying that we should understand the technology and make regulations that are pertinent to the technology rather than just stuff new things into old categories for regulatory purposes with no thought as to its appropriateness.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I think someone might have OD'ed on Limbaugh.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Jim_bo said:


> And you would restrict a 250W class 1 eBike the same way as you would this 7000W beast you provide in your video. That doesn't make you realistic. That makes you a hater. You are just like any other social justice warrior seeking the government to force your prejudices and ridiculous opinions on others. There is little difference between you and the college students who are forced to retreat to a university provided "safe space" for cookies and coloring books after they have been "triggered".


 Good thing we live in a democracy where people get to vote to change stuff they don't like. Don't like some law? Be active, go to meetings, show up and vote. Start a committee. And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Not just yours. MA rider here. No e bikes allowed on almost all the trails here, cuz motors. YRMV.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Mluisgr81 said:


> Again, I see their place in mountain biking for *certain people*, but for the masses, I think it's ridiculous.


You mean the ones who want to haul their decrepit asses 10 miles out in the woods only to have a mechanical (electrical?) and need assistance?

lol, I keed, but...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Jim_bo said:


> ...


Why did you delete your rant? Now my post sounds even dumber


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I haven't run into too many ebikes, the encounters I've had could have been confused with regular bikes. 

I did recently get passed on the Santa Ana River bike trail (20 mile paved path) by a dirt bike and a side-by-side 4 seater, in the same day. 

Guns don't kill people, irresponsible people do. Same can be said with bikes and cars.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Why did you delete your rant? Now my post sounds even dumber


Saved by the quote!


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

Sidewalk said:


> I haven't run into too many ebikes, the encounters I've had could have been confused with regular bikes.
> 
> I did recently get passed on the Santa Ana River bike trail (20 mile paved path) by a dirt bike and a side-by-side 4 seater, in the same day.
> 
> Guns don't kill people, irresponsible people do. Same can be said with bikes and cars.


You make a good point about guns. So restricting all class 1 eBikes because "it has a motor" makes about as much sense as requiring background checks and permits for a squirt gun because "it has a trigger".


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Jim_bo said:


> I believe that..................


That's pretty good but I still liked your first one better.

Appreciate the heads up on it being *VERY* harmful to ride an electric bike on dirt bike trails though, I didn't realize I was endangering myself by riding my bicycle on them.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Good post Jim bo right on !


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Jim_bo said:


> While I don't suggest there should be no regulation at all, I am saying that we should understand the technology and make regulations that are pertinent to the technology rather than just stuff new things into old categories for regulatory purposes with no thought as to its appropriateness.


Honest Question, how do you propose this sort of regulation gets put in place?

until there is an eBike lobby and a solid plan, balanced rules for access are not gonna happen everywhere.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Jim_bo said:


> I have yet to see anyone provide any rational argument as to why a class 1 eBike should be banned from any MTB trail. All I have seen is the brain dead argument, "it has a motor!" I'd expect this kind of nonsense from a layperson who never gets off of his couch, but it disappoints me that it actually comes from the MTB community.


Really?


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

leeboh said:


> Good thing we live in a democracy where people get to vote to change stuff they don't like. Don't like some law? Be active, go to meetings, show up and vote. Start a committee. And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Not just yours. MA rider here. No e bikes allowed on almost all the trails here, cuz motors. YRMV.


First of all... we do not live in a democracy.

Second... when was the vote on banning all eBikes simply because they have a motor? I missed that.

These regulations are NOT created through any democratic process. They are simply made up by regulatory agencies that have no direct accountability to the people. This is true with all regulations. Only the loud voice of discontent will change regulations like this. But the "rules are rules" attitude means that regulatory agencies will be able to create any regulation they like no matter how absurd (i.e. EPA) as long as the sheeple just accept it as the rules.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> Honest Question, how do you propose this sort of regulation gets put in place?
> 
> until there is an eBike lobby and a solid plan, balanced rules for access are not gonna happen everywhere.


Amazingly enough, California is doing it right. They have passed legislation requiring all eBikes to be identified by the manufacturer as to its class and have that class stamped on the bike. So, a set of rules for a class 3 bike (i.e. a 7000W electric dirtbike) can be differentiated from the rules for a class 1 bike (i.e. a Specialized Levo).


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Jim_bo said:


> Second... when was the vote on banning all eBikes simply because they have a motor? I missed that.


Third.... when was the vote on _allowing_ all e-bikes simply because they only have a _little_ motor? I missed that.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

in FL it was pedgo and grand paw and grand ma who both vote and have influence who just wanted to ride the bike paths on there e bikes .


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Jim_bo said:


> Amazingly enough, California is doing it right. They have passed legislation requiring all eBikes to be identified by the manufacturer as to its class and have that class stamped on the bike. So, a set of rules for a class 3 bike (i.e. a 7000W electric dirtbike) can be differentiated from the rules for a class 1 bike (i.e. a Specialized Levo).


Once again; you have proven that you start typing opinions without reading (or comprehending) the subject matter.

In CA "...a 7000W electric dirtbike" is not a Class 3 bike.

FWIW a Class 3 e-bike is just like a Class 1 e-bike but has a top assisted speed of 28 mph instead of 20 mph. All 3 classes of electric bicycles are limited to 750 watts.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> Honest Question, how do you propose this sort of regulation gets put in place?
> 
> until there is an eBike lobby and a solid plan, balanced rules for access are not gonna happen everywhere.


There are several e-bike lobbies; some user groups---some groups of manufactures/retailers.

Here in California the manufacture's lobby hoodwinked the allied user's lobby and got the legislation passed to permit Classes 1 & 2 electric bicycles on any trail allowing regular bikes. (The user's lobby consortium thought they were only granting e-bike access to bike lanes and bike paths)


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Jim_bo said:


> First of all... we do not live in a democracy.





Jim_bo said:


> Amazingly enough, California is doing it right. They have passed legislation


Please correct me if I am wrong, but passing legislation is part of the democratic process right?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong, but passing legislation is part of the democratic process right?


The U.S. is a constitutional republic.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Back when I was commuting 50 miles round trip in San Diego round trip, I got a nice tow (via drafting) from an e for about 5 miles. Nice break.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jim_bo said:


> we should understand the technology and make regulations that are pertinent to the technology rather than just stuff new things into old categories for regulatory purposes with no thought as to its appropriateness.


Agree.

Who cares whether or not e-bikers get themselves access based on their own merits?

Like you say, as long as they're not stuffed into the same category with mountain bikes as far as regulation goes, I personally have little issue with them. My gripe is mainly with people think that they should just be considered the exact same thing as a real (non-motorized) bike. That creates a potential access nightmare for mountain bikers, most of whom have no need or desire for a motor on their bikes, nor do we want to have to be responsible for e-bikes and any access issues that may come along with them.

It's not a moto, but it's not a bicycle either. I don't think it makes sense when anti people pretend e-bikes are the same as a full-on moto, and it also doesn't make any sense for pro people to obstinately pretend it's the same thing as a bicycle. There is a whole lot of that going on from both sides. Treat e-bikes as their own class, with their own dedicated advocacy groups and separate regulations from mountain bikes, let them sink or swim on their own, and there really isn't anything to argue about besides butthurt.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jim_bo said:


> The fate of one class of MTBs will become the fate of us all.


E-bikes are NOT a class of MTBs.
They're a class unto themselves.

Why would mountain bikers want to hang the motor albatross around their necks when it comes to access issues? There are no good reasons whatsoever, just a whole lot of headaches and time spent fighting someone else's fights for them. E-bike advocacy groups need to step up and stand on their own feet and not try to sneak in on MTBers coattails by pretending to be 'just another kind of mountain bike'.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Agree.
> 
> Who cares whether or not e-bikers get themselves access based on their own merits?
> 
> ...


+1

That's all most of us are asking right there.


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## johnniewalk (Jan 8, 2015)

i like to ride in e-MTB Terror, thanks for the post.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Congratulations to ddockray for taking this entire thread and derailing it. I have not seen one post since he chimed in that was on topic with the discussion of Actual real-life terror from eBikes on trails. I have warned the users here before to not feed the trolls and to not derail threads. both happened here over the last day.

ddockray - please read the forum rules and abide by them.

The rest of you, please do not engage people who are going off-topic, direct them to the correct thread and engage there.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Congratulations to ddockray for taking this entire thread and derailing it. I have not seen one post since he chimed in that was on topic with the discussion of Actual real-life terror from eBikes on trails. I have warned the users here before to not feed the trolls and to not derail threads. both happened here over the last day.
> 
> ddockray - please read the forum rules and abide by them.
> 
> The rest of you, please do not engage people who are going off-topic, direct them to the correct thread and engage there.


I just went back and looked at every reply to Fos Topic Concrete Examples of e-MTB Terror nowere do I see any reply from ddockray on this am I wrong? Harry gives examples of e bikes on the road being band in Vetnam or china not what we are talking about . E bikes causing a trail to be shut down in any us trails . So why the hate on ddockray ? Mabey if the form Mods would inforce the already in place rules and do a lot better job of keeping The topics on topic I know I am guilty of the same but can we keep everything from ITS got a motor so its not a bike ? on every dissuasion.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rider95 said:


> I just went back and looked at every reply to Fos Topic Concrete Examples of e-MTB Terror nowere do I see any reply from ddockray on this am I wrong? Harry gives examples of e bikes on the road being band in Vetnam or china not what we are talking about . E bikes causing a trail to be shut down in any us trails . So why the hate on ddockray ? Mabey if the form Mods would inforce the already in place rules and do a lot better job of keeping The topics on topic I know I am guilty of the same but can we keep everything from ITS got a motor so its not a bike ? on every dissuasion.


I deleted them. all of them.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Really didn't like what he said ? What about my complaints I have forward about the rules being broken OH I see your rules is just for us pro e biker so some of us get censed the ones you don't like right?


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Looks like it's about time to pop some more corn! :cornut:


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Shut up or put up The OP was show us a trail that has been shut down because of e bike use . And I would like to know what trails was shut down to MT bikers for what ever reason just name them K . So lets make two list those trails that was shut down for e bikes use and those that was shut down for what ever reason


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Shut up or put up The OP was show us a trail that has been shut down because of e bike use . And I would like to know what trails was shut down to MT bikers for what ever reason just name them K . So lets make two list those trails that was shut down for e bikes use and those that was shut down for what ever reason


So you want to compare trails closed because of the recent arrival emotorbikes to mountain bikes that have been around for about 4 decades? Sounds tilted to me. Maybe you should just concentrate on some advocacy or trail work instead of flailing about with these straw man arguments?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

rider95 said:


> Really didn't like what he said ? What about my complaints I have forward about the rules being broken OH I see your rules is just for us pro e biker so some of us get censed the ones you don't like right?


He deleted ALL of the posts from the last week, accept for one. He deleted several of mine and several of JB Weld's, not just ddockray's. He deleted both sides.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> So you want to compare trails closed because of the recent arrival emotorbikes to mountain bikes that have been around for about 4 decades? Sounds tilted to me. Maybe you should just concentrate on some advocacy or trail work instead of flailing about with these straw man arguments?


Just put up or shut up you have no argument


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I saw an ebike in the back of a truck in SoCal last week and I was terrified.

Does that count?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> When emotorbikes have been around long enough to draw any realistic conclusions you could revisit this, until then there is no argument.
> 
> And just to demonstrate the folly of your logic, every single mile of non-motorized trail in the N.F. and B.L.M. network of trails has been closed to emotorbikes, because of emotorbikes in the recent past.


Name it with pics or it dosent exest


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Name it with pics or it dosent exest


Seriously?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> Seriously?


Please do life behind bars or are you a p


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Please do life behind bars or are you a p


And there's no need to be insulting just because you can't grasp this.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

life behind bars said:


> You're disputing the nationwide ban on emotorbikes on non-motorized trails on federal lands?


How about this, YOU enlighten us all what YOU define as being a "emotorbike". You keep persistently name these said Emotorbikes but yet you fail to define what you class as one?

This may help with the debate possibly??????


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KiwiPhil said:


> How about this, YOU enlighten us all what YOU define as being a "emotorbike". You keep persistently name these said Emotorbikes but yet you fail to define what you class as one?
> 
> This may help with the debate possibly??????


Any bike with a motor. That's pretty simple.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I will ride any trail and show you your wrong


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> I will ride any trail and show you your wrong


Alrighty then.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

rider95 said:


> I will ride any trail and show you your wrong


Well you are disabled and are allowed to ride, right? I don't think anyone here has a problem with that.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> I deleted them. all of them.


Well, with an OP title that ends with "Terror" I would expect drama to be the emphasis if not the goal of the thread.

To that end we were doing a pretty good job.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

life behind bars said:


> Any bike with a motor. That's pretty simple.


Shows ones maturity level, when even after it has been stated time and time again no to do something, someone persists on lowering the level of the debate. 
We are discussing e-Bikes here, in particular E-MTB's as per the topic description
Now, how about you leave the adults to discuss these topics and run away and play with your lego and Barbie dolls, or better still,go to the motorbike forums to discuss the electric versions of their bikes that you seem to have a fascination with, instead of dribbling on in here about them


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

alexbn921 said:


> I have! He had a **** ton of excuses. Most of which applied to me. I'm 40, yep so am I. I have 2 kids, Yep 3. I work construction, yep me too.
> I told him they weren't allowed anywhere in the the area. He just said he knew and looked down. I could tell he felt like a tool and I didn't even want to talk to him. Not my place to enforce anything, although the next day a cop was sitting up at the top watching everyone.


Cool story, bro. I don't think I would have even spent the energy on the conversation.


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## ddockray (May 6, 2009)

I did not hijack this thread. The whole thing has been a debate about e-bikes. Deleting my posts on the premise that i changed the subject is just an excuse for censorship. I challenged the moderators views on electric assist class 1 e-bikes, and they were triggered like a bunch of liberal cry babies when i said that an electric assist class 1 bike IS a class of MTB and then backed up my view with logic and examples. I still have not heard one good story about how e-bikes have caused any problems at all? I'm sure I've missed something but please i looked trough this whole thread and i don't see any links to articles or anything "concrete". Concrete to me is a hiker or a regular biker in the hospital.
This whole thread was started so the moderators could ***** about e-bikes and when it turns out there really isn't anything concrete and their little fishing trip didn't turn up any fish no matter how much chum they threw in the water. they deleted all the posts that didn't fit their agenda.

the moderators here think they know better than the law makers and even stifle a critical debate that has for the most part been settled. 

they use the logic that if "it has a motor it is a motorcycle" but they don't

acknowledge that the same logic can be used to say

"if it is pedal driven, it is a pedalcycle" 

or "if it requires human-powered to move, it is human-powered"

the definition of a bicycle does not say "purely human-powered" as it can't be technically because sometimes a bike is powered by gravity. 

if you guys delete this post too then this truly is not an open forum for logical critical discussion.

DD


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

ddockray said:


> I did not hijack this thread. The whole thing has been a debate about e-bikes. Deleting my posts on the premise that i changed the subject is just an excuse for censorship. I challenged the moderators views on electric assist class 1 e-bikes, and they were triggered like a bunch of liberal cry babies when i said that an electric assist class 1 bike IS a class of MTB and then backed up my view with logic and examples. I still have not heard one good story about how e-bikes have caused any problems at all? I'm sure I've missed something but please i looked trough this whole thread and i don't see any links to articles or anything "concrete". Concrete to me is a hiker or a regular biker in the hospital.
> This whole thread was started so the moderators could ***** about e-bikes and when it turns out there really isn't anything concrete and their little fishing trip didn't turn up any fish no matter how much chum they threw in the water. they deleted all the posts that didn't fit their agenda.
> 
> the moderators here think they know better than the law makers and even stifle a critical debate that has for the most part been settled.
> ...


http://forums.mtbr.com/turner/chris...ed-head-collision-withe-ebike-ca-1043549.html

There aren't a lot of reported incidents because ebikes are banned from most mountain biking trails. If you don't like that this site uses the correct definition for a bicycle or how the mods manage this site, you are free to leave.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ddockray said:


> the definition of a bicycle does not say "purely human-powered" as it can't be technically because sometimes a bike is powered by gravity.


Whoever wrote the definition probably didn't realize that it would be scrutinized by a bunch of lawyers from California, if they had they would have been more careful with their wording.

_"bunch of liberal crybabies"_

^that's rich!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KiwiPhil said:


> Shows ones maturity level, when even after it has been stated time and time again no to do something, someone persists on lowering the level of the debate.
> We are discussing e-Bikes here, in particular E-MTB's as per the topic description
> Now, how about you leave the adults to discuss these topics and run away and play with your lego and Barbie dolls, or better still,go to the motorbike forums to discuss the electric versions of their bikes that you seem to have a fascination with, instead of dribbling on in here about them


You continue to gloss over the fact that they are motorized, talk about being adult about it. You being from a different hemisphere leaves you with no skin in this conversation that is N.A. centric, you have little to lose unlike U.S. Mountain Bikers, so why don't you just run along?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ddockray said:


> This whole thread was started so the moderators could ***** about e-bikes and when it turns out there really isn't anything concrete and their little fishing trip didn't turn up any fish no matter how much chum they threw in the water. they deleted all the posts that didn't fit their agenda.


Not to throw a wrench into your ranting, but you do realize that this thread was started by a poster who is pro-ebike and also not a moderator, right?

So, well...maybe you might want to rethink not wanting your post deleted, seeing as it is wildly distanced from reality.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ddockray said:


> I did not hijack this thread. The whole thing has been a debate about e-bikes. Deleting my posts on the premise that i changed the subject is just an excuse for censorship. I challenged the moderators views on electric assist class 1 e-bikes, and they were triggered like a bunch of liberal cry babies when i said that an electric assist class 1 bike IS a class of MTB and then backed up my view with logic and examples. I still have not heard one good story about how e-bikes have caused any problems at all? I'm sure I've missed something but please i looked trough this whole thread and i don't see any links to articles or anything "concrete". Concrete to me is a hiker or a regular biker in the hospital.
> This whole thread was started so the moderators could ***** about e-bikes and when it turns out there really isn't anything concrete and their little fishing trip didn't turn up any fish no matter how much chum they threw in the water. they deleted all the posts that didn't fit their agenda.
> 
> the moderators here think they know better than the law makers and even stifle a critical debate that has for the most part been settled.
> ...


You should check out who started the thread before you start accusing it of all being part of some grand moderator conspiracy. Not to mention that the only moderator active in this forum who has any moderator rights here is Klurejr, I'm just a civilian here. What he chooses to do if fine with me. There is a ebike forum moderator you can contact with the "report" button if you choose to.

The reality is there aren't any mtb trails that have been closed in the US due to a hiker or biker ending up in the hospital at the hands of a emtber, there's hardly any emtbs on the trails in the US. Try to find trails that have been closed to mtbs for the same reason and you'll be hard pressed to find any examples even though the amount of mtbs vastly outnumbers emtbs and they've been ridden for 30 years. I can only think of the Strava incident in CA last year, other than that, I couldn't find any mention of situations like that on the web. Has it happened? I assume so, although rarely, it's just not something that makes the news for the most part. Trails get closed primarily because they were built illegally in the first place, or the staus of the land changes and becomes protected in some way, wilderness, wilderness study area, closed for rehabilitation etc.

For the most part, it's really not an issue.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Here was the topic from the OP:



fos'l said:


> We've experienced many "theoretical" examples of e-MTB problems from the whiners and trolls. How about some concrete examples of problems?
> Please spare us the "My STRAVA time was impaired when I was going downhill at 30 mph instead of 40 mph because this guy was climbing at 6 mph instead of 4 mph" or the famous "Some guy who didn't know how to ride a bike passed me on a hill".





ddockray said:


> I did not hijack this thread. The whole thing has been a debate about e-bikes.


No, this was not a thread about debating trail access, or general legality, it was a place to put concrete examples of eBike's terrorizing trail users. You went way off topic.

I see you are new here, so you get a slight pass, do it again and you get a temp ban. It is quite obvious to me and everyone who has read this thread that you did not read the eBike section specific rules, or you read them and don't care. There are literally dozens of other threads you could of posted in to bring back this well flogged debate, this was not the correct one. Unlike other parts of MTBR this section has to be moderated with a heavy hand to keep the flame wars down.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

1) As stated above, this thread was started because individuals intimated that e-MTB's were causing MTB's to lose access; it was interesting (to me) to see examples.
2) I enjoy LEGAL e-MTB's, but am an MTB enthusiast first.
3) To me, e-MTB's aren't a class of MTB, but a different animal. Also, they aren't motorcycles or mopeds as some crazy opinions suggest.
4) IMO, the threat to MTB's will be when e-MTB's are so similar as to be indistinguishable. This will occur because the worldwide market is enormous.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

ddockray said:


> I did not hijack this thread. The whole thing has been a debate about e-bikes. Deleting my posts on the premise that i changed the subject is just an excuse for censorship. I challenged the moderators views on electric assist class 1 e-bikes, and they were triggered like a bunch of liberal cry babies when i said that an electric assist class 1 bike IS a class of MTB and then backed up my view with logic and examples. I still have not heard one good story about how e-bikes have caused any problems at all? I'm sure I've missed something but please i looked trough this whole thread and i don't see any links to articles or anything "concrete". Concrete to me is a hiker or a regular biker in the hospital.
> This whole thread was started so the moderators could ***** about e-bikes and when it turns out there really isn't anything concrete and their little fishing trip didn't turn up any fish no matter how much chum they threw in the water. they deleted all the posts that didn't fit their agenda.
> 
> the moderators here think they know better than the law makers and even stifle a critical debate that has for the most part been settled.
> ...


 Barking up the wrong tree here. See the OP first post. Lots ways to add without derail. Like a new thread. READ the stickies at the beginning of the forum about posting rules. Might help some. Really. And you are welcome to go to an e bike site, finding some push back here on a mt biking site?


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> No, this was not a thread about debating trail access, or general legality, it was a place to put concrete examples of eBike's terrorizing trail users. You went way off topic.


How can you seriously say this and delete his posts when just every threads here are derailed, regardless of the subject, day after day by the the same anti-ebike people?


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

life behind bars said:


> You continue to gloss over the fact that they are motorized, talk about being adult about it. You being from a different hemisphere leaves you with no skin in this conversation that is N.A. centric, you have little to lose unlike U.S. Mountain Bikers, so why don't you just run along?


I have glossed over the fact that they have a motor!!!! Far from it buddy. I happily put my hand up and tell people I'm riding my Levo when I'm out on it, and encourage people, even strangers that show an interest, to have a ride. That way they get an understanding of what a class1 E-mtb is. I have not had one negative from anyone on our trails. And don't forget that I ride a standard MTB as much as I can
Oh, and now your come back is that this tread is about N.A centric. Well where does it say that on the thread topic? Shows how narrow minded you are when you say that I have little to lose. I'm a mountain biker and have been for 30 yrs. I have helped with trails etc over that time. And to say that we have no issues around access is utter bullocks. We constantly have issues with walkers claiming bike trails that were built by bikers.

The future of Polhill Reserve | Stuff.co.nz

Wellington Walkers Group, mentioned in the article oppose every attempt for bikers to make new tracks, yet the logic would say that more MTB tracks would take bikers off the shared tracks. They campaign to the Councils to have our tracks converted into walking only. Quote "A "time sharing" approach which would limit mountain bikers use of mixed trails was also championed by Walking Capital"

Don't preach to me that I've got nothing to loose without YOU even knowing anything about the access here and how it works!!!

Now, Back to the topic at hand "Concrete Examples of e-MTB Terror", for which I can report that there is NONE OF WHERE I RIDE!!!


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

eFat said:


> How can you seriously say this and delete his posts when just every threads here are derailed, regardless of the subject, day after day by the the same anti-ebike people?


Yip, yet Life Behind Bars can constantly call them emotorbikes and get away with it !!

From the "read before you post" thread:

Acceptable Definitions:

Bicycle/Mountain Bike - Pedal Power only.
Electric Bicycle/eBike - Bicycle with an electric motor, this can be pedal assist or throttle controlled (ebike). Best to specify what class or eBike you are discussing and or list the Wattage of the motor, 250watt, 750watt, 10,000watt.... not all eBikes are created equally.
Motorcycle - Generally refers to any 2 wheeled machine with an Internal Gas Combustion Engine.
MoPed - A Motorcycle or Electric Bicycle that also happens to have pedals on it. In most US States requires a Valid M1 or M2 Drivers License and must be registered.

Based on these definitions any posts that specifically refers to an Electric Bicycle as a regular bicycle or a Mountain Bike will be deleted. Any posts the refers to an Electric Bicycle as a Motorcycle will be deleted. Most of the arguing in this sub is based on users either intentionally or unintentionally using the incorrect definition. This has to stop.

Consistency please


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Sure thing. I deleted the last 13 post of his I could find that used the word emotorbike as a derogatory way of describing and Electric Bicycle and gave a warning.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

When will they stop calling them bicycles?


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

life behind bars said:


> When will they stop calling them bicycles?


two wrongs don't make a right Life Behind Bars

Thank you KlureJR. It may seem petty, which it is, but it may be the only way to keep people from inciting negative comments.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KiwiPhil said:


> two wrongs don't make a right Life Behind Bars
> 
> Thank you KlureJR. It may seem petty, which it is, but it may be the only way to keep people from inciting negative comments.


Neither does one.


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