# Budget Hubs or Whole Hog?



## Plum (Sep 14, 2004)

So, I'm in the market for some 36 hole, 135mm hubs for a mountain tandem project. These will be for a 650b wheelset, so I'm pretty limited in hole count, 36 is the most I can come up with.

Anyway, my question is regarding a 'budget' set of hubs for this project, something like an XT, which isn't likely to hold up to a ton of abuse, but is easily repairable and freewheels are pretty easy to find/get a hold of.

The alternative is to source a higher end, actual tandem rated hubset at much higher cost. Something like a White Industries, King, DT, etc. Obviously, cost is likely to be around $300 to $500/hubset instead of the ~$100 I can get a set of XT's for, but durability is increased. I can buy a lot of freewheels for the cost difference..

Intended usage will likely be mostly around town, but with some mountain bike racing and touring thrown in. Team weight (unloaded) is likely to be 350 lbs.

So tell me what you'd do, save up a few more months for the high dollar hubs, or buy the XT's and a couple of freewheels.

Other alternatives? Hope SS hubs (with a 6 speed converted cassette)? Steel hub body, wider flanges, but is the freewheel strong enough for tandem usage? What about Saint hubsets, are they available in a 'standard' 135mm, 10mm axle configuration for use with a normal rear setup? Are the DH freewheels any stronger than the XT brothers?

Thanks all..

Plum


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

The walk / push out of the woods, with someone reminding you about how far the walk is, may justify the additional costs towards reliability.

Good hubs are not cheap. They may be priceless depending upon the distance to get home with a failed hub...

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

PMK said:


> The walk / push out of the woods, with someone reminding you about how far the walk is, may justify the additional costs towards reliability.
> 
> Good hubs are not cheap. They may be priceless depending upon the distance to get home with a failed hub...
> 
> PK


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
What he said...

But if you are JUST riding around town, that walk won't ever be too far.


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

It honestly depends on how tough you think you're going to run it.

If I had enough money to do it right and still not overspend I'd probably get a low range tandem specific for the rear and a budget (DH etc.) one for the front.

Since I don't have enough money and I'm not going to do it right I'll just take your LX's off your hands once you make a decision.  We're never going to race and our trails are never more than a handful of miles from civilization.


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## Plum (Sep 14, 2004)

bme107 said:


> It honestly depends on how tough you think you're going to run it.
> 
> If I had enough money to do it right and still not overspend I'd probably get a low range tandem specific for the rear and a budget (DH etc.) one for the front.
> 
> Since I don't have enough money and I'm not going to do it right I'll just take your LX's off your hands once you make a decision.  We're never going to race and our trails are never more than a handful of miles from civilization.


I'm honestly on the fence on this one, I really appreciate the fact that a Tandem can destroy hubs, but this bike still has the original 36 hole exage hubs from 1992 that appear to be in good shape.

I'm toying with the idea of rebuilding the stock 700d rims into a set of XT's for now, then in the future, if usage and/or breakage dictates, moving up the range..

I'd love to spend the dollars on my 'final' hubset now, but for the money associated with a set of Kings, I can have the rest of the bike finished..

JP


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Correction from above LX should have been "Deore DX"



Plum said:


> I'm honestly on the fence on this one, I really appreciate the fact that a Tandem can destroy hubs, but this bike still has the original 36 hole exage hubs from 1992 that appear to be in good shape.
> 
> I'm toying with the idea of rebuilding the stock 700d rims into a set of XT's for now, then in the future, if usage and/or breakage dictates, moving up the range..
> 
> ...


Mine are in perfect shape. I got the cassette off and cleaned and I debated breaking the hub down or not. In the end I decided to keep running it with the original guts and pack. It just looks so perfect w/o need for replacement.

Other than tires and tubes (because of dry rot) my rolling stock is the last place I'd spend money on this bike. Since you've gone to discs you're forced to change up the hubs. Finish it and ride it until it breaks is where I'm at.

The debate comes down to: Do you believe single bike hubs from 2010 are of equal or better quality than the hubs that came on a tandem bike in 1992? (notice I didn't say "tandem hubs" since I feel that is debatable)


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## Plum (Sep 14, 2004)

bme107 said:


> The debate comes down to: Do you believe single bike hubs from 2010 are of equal or better quality than the hubs that came on a tandem bike in 1992? (notice I didn't say "tandem hubs" since I feel that is debatable)


I'd have to agree, I don't think they had 'tandem' hubs back then, they appear to be run of the mill, middle to low-end mtb hubs. I'd have to think a set of 6-bolt XT's would be an improvement..

JP


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

*my hub world*

I suggest you try the XT hubs. Buy a spare freehub now just in case you blow one up. It's not a trailside fix, but you can be up faster than waiting for an order. Try the XT hubs and if you do blow it up, you know that you might want to consider something else. If you don't blow one up - case solved. My guess is that if you really do mostly recreational riding you will be fine for quite a while. But the more you push and race, the quicker you will max out the hub. Would you say your climbing style is more smooth, fast pedaling, or more big gear mashing? Thay will make a huge difference. We rode an XT for about five years with only one freehub broken and we did NOT take it easy on them. Our White Industries hub lasted about three years before blowing up, and it is not as easy to fix. We have now moved to DT Swiss but too recently to give durability feed back.

One question I have is are the new higher engagement freehubs as durable as the old ones? I'm not sure what the failure point is in the XT freehubs. I do know that with DT Swiss the higher 32 point engagement option is not as strong as the old 16 point one.


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## Plum (Sep 14, 2004)

Trails4Two said:


> One question I have is are the new higher engagement freehubs as durable as the old ones? I'm not sure what the failure point is in the XT freehubs. I do know that with DT Swiss the higher 32 point engagement option is not as strong as the old 16 point one.


I think it depends on how they get the quicker engagement. If they keep the number of pawls the same, but stagger them in the hub body, then I think you're losing strength. I am assuming that most are using pairs of pawls, then going to individual pawls at a staggered spacing..

That said, does anybody know if the shimano tandem freehub is different than any other? Is there an 'upgraded' freehub out there that can be bolted onto the XT hub body, like a Saint, Hone or Tandem freehub?

I think I'll put a set of XT's on the stock rims, then move from there.. As much as I'd like the usage to be more towards actual woods riding and touring, recreational riding is far more likely at this time..

Plum

Edit, the XT freehub is listed as the same part as the Hone freehub, and other sources put the XT 750 freehub as the same part as the tandem freehub...


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Keep in mind that a Shimano HF08 XT tandem hub is different from a Shimano XT hub. The XT Tandem version, HF08, may well be reasonably suitable for tandem use, even off-road. I believe it only comes in 145mm version, threaded for drum brakes.


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

Also if I remember correctly the tandem freehubs are not interchangeable with standard XT hubs. But I don't know what/if the mechanical difference in the freehub mechanism is.


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## Plum (Sep 14, 2004)

TandemNut said:


> Keep in mind that a Shimano HF08 XT tandem hub is different from a Shimano XT hub. The XT Tandem version, HF08, may well be reasonably suitable for tandem use, even off-road. I believe it only comes in 145mm version, threaded for drum brakes.


Yeah, I've only ever seen the HF08 in 145mm spacing, which won't work for me..

Tandem rated options in the 135mm spacing include:

DT540 - ~$350
King - ~$350
White M16 - ~$300

Of the three, if I'm spending the money, I'm most likely to pick up a steel-freehub'd King off ebay, possibly with fun bolts to help gain whatever rigidity I can pickup.

Plum


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## Plum (Sep 14, 2004)

Trails4Two said:


> Also if I remember correctly the tandem freehubs are not interchangeable with standard XT hubs. But I don't know what/if the mechanical difference in the freehub mechanism is.


One source had the HF08 and the XT M735 freehubs as the same part number, but without having them both in hand, it's hard to say whether they're actually interchangeable.

Another source had the XT and the Hone freehubs as the same, which would mean that the XT, Hone and Tandem (HF08) were all the same. The Saints are a different breed due to axle diameter, 12mm vs. 10mm.

Too bad the saints aren't available in a 135mm 10mm QR version, I think they're probably a step up in durability from XT.

Plum


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

This may sound like a stupid alternative plan...if you want HF08's, get them, buy a 135 axle, you can likely use the existing right side shimming and pull 10mm from the left.

I quickly checked an HF07 I had laying around, and there is 10mm of spacers on the left side.

If you have an old XT or LX rear hub, pull the axle, if not they are easy to get and cheap if not free, or a six pack.

PK


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## Plum (Sep 14, 2004)

PMK said:


> This may sound like a stupid alternative plan...if you want HF08's, get them, buy a 135 axle, you can likely use the existing right side shimming and pull 10mm from the left.
> 
> I quickly checked an HF07 I had laying around, and there is 10mm of spacers on the left side.
> 
> ...


IIRC, the tandem shimano hubs are 40 hole, which is a non-starter for a 650b rim/wheelset. Otherwise I think you could do the axle swap.

I don't have the attachments for the drum/drag brake tho, and there'll be a disc mounted instead, so the only 'gain' I'd be getting with the tandem hub is the strength gain (if any) of the tandem freehub.

Plum


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

While I do have a spare XT freehub, I haven't needed it yet. Granted, we're not super strong, and we weigh not quite 350#, but we've attacked some hard climbs using the granny gear and 12 years on the hub has not exploded yet. We've had times where the rear tire lost traction, then grabbed suddenly, and we've ripped things out of the ground with the rear tire. We even ripped the rear tire (that was just as long of a walkout as a broken freehub). Hub is still good. As I've mentioned in the past, if you are some combination of fairly smooth (which I think we are), not super strong (which I think we are), and not super heavy (which I think we are), the Shimano hub will do just fine. I spent the money I saved on beer.

btw - my oldest bike, which I still have from 1989, has Shimano cup-and-cone hubs. They've been cleaned many times, but they are all original. Since then, I have broken or had to have overhauled all of my "fancy" hubs (the Kings lasted 15 yrs. though - with zero attention).

-F


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## Plum (Sep 14, 2004)

Nice to have another data point. My wife and I are an inexperienced tandem team, but we've both been riding mountain for several years, me since 1990 or so, her since 95 or so. I think we'll be a pretty smooth team after a little experience. Our component damage history is surprisingly short, even with all the years behind us.

As for strength, we don't get a chance to ride very frequently right now, mostly around town with the chariot in tow, so we're not beating anybody in a race..

Plum



Fleas said:


> While I do have a spare XT freehub, I haven't needed it yet. Granted, we're not super strong, and we weigh not quite 350#, but we've attacked some hard climbs using the granny gear and 12 years on the hub has not exploded yet. We've had times where the rear tire lost traction, then grabbed suddenly, and we've ripped things out of the ground with the rear tire. We even ripped the rear tire (that was just as long of a walkout as a broken freehub). Hub is still good. As I've mentioned in the past, if you are some combination of fairly smooth (which I think we are), not super strong (which I think we are), and not super heavy (which I think we are), the Shimano hub will do just fine. I spent the money I saved on beer.
> 
> btw - my oldest bike, which I still have from 1989, has Shimano cup-and-cone hubs. They've been cleaned many times, but they are all original. Since then, I have broken or had to have overhauled all of my "fancy" hubs (the Kings lasted 15 yrs. though - with zero attention).
> 
> -F


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## rbtcha (Nov 17, 2007)

I may be late posting on this but I have ridden off road with inferior hubs. The walk back was not fun ( bike shoes are not hiking shoes and the stoker bars jab you in the back constantly).
The first wheel set we had was Mavic and the Pawls blew out the first week we had them. 
Currently running Hadly hubs laced to Sun Doublewides and have not had a days issue with them since 2002. Spend the money on a good set of hubs and skimp on the water bottle cages I say.


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