# Who has the best welds in the industry.



## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Visited a local bike shop the other day and being used to all the alloy and mass produced mountain bikes over the past several years. After discussing customs a steel Serotta road bike caught my eye because the welds were non existant. The tubes looked as if they were magicly melded togther under a fine paint job. Leaning more towards steel or ti at looking at building up a hardtail. Know that these boards are filled with bike porn of every type but who Mountain bike wise has the best welds?

any pics?


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## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

Road or mountain I've never seen better welds than on Moots bikes...


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

It depends on what you like in a weld. Alloy and aluminum welds are pretty to me. I think Specialized welds look damn good


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## wayneosdias (Mar 24, 2004)

rebel1916 said:


> Alloy and aluminum welds are pretty to me. I think Specialized welds look damn good


Yeah the Taiwan, robotic made scallops down the top tube of my stumpjumper are sweet looking.


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## xKREDx (Aug 8, 2006)

well.........for my 05 atomik theres a weld going straight down the top of the top-tube where norco took two pieces of metal welded them toghter......it looks pretty cool

http://www.norco.com/2005bikes/bikes05_archive.php?lang=en&id=atomik

(the weld go's from the head tube to the seatpost)

heres a pic


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

Moots I think. Those Ti welds are outstanding. 



R.


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## CactusFodder (Dec 2, 2006)

I'm pretty impressed with the welds on my new Asta Expert.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Litespeed's got some pretty nice welds on their Ti, too.


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## Ricisan (Aug 30, 2006)

*Stack of Dimes*

My 97 DB has beautiful alloy w/perfect welds. All of the tubes are surrounded by the shiney dimes evenly spread out. One of the reasons I kept the frame for upgrading.

R


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## PointBoy (Jan 12, 2004)

*I'd have to agree with Moots*

but my Titus has nice welds


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## East Coast Bender (Nov 25, 2004)

Game Over


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## iron1 (Sep 23, 2006)

I think specialized has some of the best


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2005)

*Boston's own.....*

Seven Cycles


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

wayneosdias said:


> Yeah the Taiwan, robotic made scallops down the top tube of my stumpjumper are sweet looking.


I do not know of any robotic welders being used in the industry. Taiwan frame factories are staffed with skilled human welders.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

shiggy said:


> I do not know of any robotic welders being used in the industry. Taiwan frame factories are staffed with skilled human welders.


There are more robotic welding fixtures being used for production than you realize .
Most of the bmx frames coming out of taiwan are now robot welded and you can bet that the seem welds on any monoque frame are also done by robots .

Stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes telling us all frames made in Taiwan are welded by hand 

Merry Christmas


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## grawbass (Aug 23, 2004)

East Coast Bender said:


> Game Over


Welds don't get much better than that.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

shiggy said:


> I do not know of any robotic welders being used in the industry. Taiwan frame factories are staffed with skilled human welders.


That's what they tell you. I guess you are a believer. There are workers in the factories, but they aren't trade workers over there like we have here. Additionally, cost cutting is imperative on all ends, which is why they might decide to turn the welding temperatures down by just a wee bit because in the course of a year, they'll save several hundred thousand or more depending on factory size. There are robotic welders, as well as human welders out there. The robots help cut costs.

And for the rest, Ti, Al, and Steel welds can't be compared. It's quite funny you guys are trying because the weldability and properties require different techniques.


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## lushmd (Apr 9, 2004)

For aluminum, Ventana hands down.


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## norm (Feb 20, 2005)

I am a welder by trade, what company welded that.....it is truly great welding. Somebody there knows there welding.....almost looks like robotic welding?


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

welded what?


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## Cyco-Dude (Feb 12, 2004)

he's probably referring to that titanium bike. i'll agree that you can't really compare aluminum to titanium to steal. also, i don't think specialized welds are that great (or perfect at least). they look nice where you can see them, but get kind of sloppy on the undersides. the s-works bikes might be a different matter though.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

i love Intense's work


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## Imperial (Jun 9, 2006)

The weld's on my Imperial are very nicely done


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## Klein Freak (Jan 30, 2004)

I always liked the older Klein welds. But as mentioned, it's all in the eye of the beholder. While a nice stack of dimes can look beautiful, there's something to be said about the nearly seamless transitions that Klein used back in the day. The first picture is a my basicly NOS 1994 Attitude, the second picture is the 1996 Mantra Pro that I just retired (I have another for "show" as well). The '96 Pro is in my opinion one of the most beautiful aluminum framesets produced. The welds are clean and the tube forms are unbelievable. I do notice a difference in quality between my Pre-Trek/Trek Kleins. The last pic is a shot of my Intense Tracer. The welds are good - I'd say they're a little better than those on my Salsa Juan Solo. Not the "best" by any means, though.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Klein (then), Cannondale (always) and now GT use a lot of double-pass welds... they lay one bead over top of another, then grind/polish down the top bead so it gives a smooth joint for when it comes time to paint/clearcoat/annodize the frame.


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## Klein Freak (Jan 30, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> Klein (then), Cannondale (always) and now GT use a lot of double-pass welds... they lay one bead over top of another, then grind/polish down the top bead so it gives a smooth joint for when it comes time to paint/clearcoat/annodize the frame.


I was under the impression that Klein's welding process negated the need to file or grind the welds smooth - that they produced a void-free weld from the start, whereas Cannondale had to file/grind to get the same "look".


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

East Coast Bender said:


> Game Over


Yep, except the guy who welded that is now welding Eriksens.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Hands down, Moots. IMO. so, so perfect. And I don't currently own a single moots product.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

shiggy said:


> I do not know of any robotic welders being used in the industry. Taiwan frame factories are staffed with skilled human welders.


Most of the big companies use robots, Merida, A-Pro, Giant. It's cost prohibitive for smaller operations.


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## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

crux said:


> who Mountain bike wise has the best welds?


Top this. And this is sitting on my Seven frame -


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Klein Freak said:


> I was under the impression that Klein's welding process negated the need to file or grind the welds smooth - that they produced a void-free weld from the start, whereas Cannondale had to file/grind to get the same "look".


Gary Klein is much like Gary Fisher in that he'll claim stuff that isn't in fact true in the slightest.


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## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

DeeEight said:


> Gary Klein is much like Gary Fisher in that he'll claim stuff that isn't in fact true in the slightest.


You're the Christmas Sceptic Upie!


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## Arkayne (Dec 14, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> Top this. And this is sitting on my Seven frame -


Criminy, those are some of the best welds I've ever seen. 

However, the extent of my welding experience is from a $100 arc welder from home depot.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

I've welded for ten years, though not professionally. Trained in school and regularly weld up tools and brackets to this day.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Was asking more about who welds the best steel frame.

Ti - Moots and Independent Fabrications have always been very nice
Alloy - Think that Ventana puts out some fine work
Steel - ???


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Sycip is great. 

Steel tends to look a bit rougher anyhow, but it takes more heat than Al and the welder can penetrate better without as much a worry about burn through. Then there's the strengthening after the welding.


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## meloh1 (Jan 13, 2004)

LOL. Everybody here is talking about how good they look, not how good they are. It takes destructive testing or, at least, xrays to determine the quality of a weld. Looks have very little to do with how good the weld is.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Exactly. I've seen plenty of cold welds that look fantastic. It's the penetration, for one, that makes a good weld. The appearance is the cherry on top and sometimes related to a more expensive welder/weld process.


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## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

meloh1 said:


> LOL. Everybody here is talking about how good they look, not how good they are. It takes destructive testing or, at least, xrays to determine the quality of a weld. Looks have very little to do with how good the weld is.


There is some truth to what you are saying, but generally speaking, if a weld looks like garbage, it is garbage. Also, generally speaking if it looks like a good weld it is.

Craftsman don't lay goobers all over their work, and people who lay goobers all over can't do quality work.


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## Ice25gt (Mar 28, 2006)

My ETSX has some damn fine welds. From what I hear there are only 11 welders at the Rocky Mountain factory. I'm not sure how true that is but my frame is signed by whoever welded it.


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## MattP. (Oct 3, 2005)

Another vote for Moot's Ti welds.


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## ToddM (Feb 3, 2004)

Those moots welds are pretty darn nice that's for sure. In reality though, does it really matter what they look like? I mean really what percentage of frame failures occur at a weld? I almost never see a failure at a weld, be it a cheap huffy or a $4000 custom frame. It's almost always in the tube itself cracking due to poor design or improper materials for the design. It would seem that the appearance or cleanness of the weld has little if anything to do with how well it performs.

That said the welds on my ventana and older 01' titus racer-x are the best AL welds I've seen so far. I never liked the ground down smooth welds of cannondale. I would imagine you can't really compared Ti, Al, Steel welds because of material and welding process differences.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

The majority of frames break at welds. This is not to mean they break DUE to welds, but they break at welds and the quality of the weld can certainly accelerate the inherent weakness. Additionally, the frames are generally stronger at the weld, which creates a stress riser around it that the tube is supposed to be compensating for. A cold weld can allow the junction to move underneath and the failure can appear outside.


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## MBJockey (Dec 2, 2006)

Mine is 07 Merida Matts TFS 500D. It`s robot welded and the frame is great.


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## mtnpat (Jan 12, 2004)

Moots

Kinda hard to see in the pic, but the welds on this bike are awesome!


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Nice hybrid bike.


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## XC Dawg (Oct 20, 2005)

I've had a chance to check out a few custom frames in the shop...the first one that caught my eye was Moots, as shown above the welds are awesome.

However I think the absolute best I've seen is IF, I actually got to compare both side by side and the IF welds were non-existent, just looked like a single mold (almost reminded me of my carbon frames)

having said that, I'd take either one of them anyday!


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## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

mtnpat said:


> Moots
> 
> Kinda hard to see in the pic, but the welds on this bike are awesome!


That poor Moots, it deserves so much better...


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

I saved that pic for later use.

Perfect example of the wrong tool for the job and more money than skill.


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## be350ka (Dec 17, 2004)

................WOW!!!!!!!! That Moots is very.......cruiser like.


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## lebikerboy (Jan 19, 2005)

I visited the Klein factory in Chehalis, Washington back in the day. They did not grind their double pass welds.


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## Klein Freak (Jan 30, 2004)

lebikerboy said:


> I visited the Klein factory in Chehalis, Washington back in the day. They did not grind their double pass welds.


Thank you.


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## wayneosdias (Mar 24, 2004)

shiggy said:


> I do not know of any robotic welders being used in the industry. Taiwan frame factories are staffed with skilled human welders.


If so then Im completely blown away by the welds on my M5 SJ, they look as tho have to be made by a robot.


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## ryan123 (Jun 15, 2004)

Bikinfoolferlife said:


> That poor Moots, it deserves so much better...


agree.. that photo makes me cry, such a beautiful frame!


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## Wobbegong (Feb 11, 2004)

Ventana wins the aluminum crown.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

wayneosdias said:


> If so then Im completely blown away by the welds on my M5 SJ, they look as tho have to be made by a robot.


They are robot welded, Merida owns just under controlling interest in Specialized, saved them from bankruptcy a few years back. It's no coincidence these two suspensions look the same, Specialized "borrowed" the initial design from Merida.


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## Beolin (Apr 19, 2006)

Wow, I never thought a Moots could look ugly. I guess I was wrong.


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## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

mtnpat said:


> Moots
> Kinda hard to see in the pic, but the welds on this bike are awesome!


I hope that's not your Moots. I know custom should be custom but that's just wrong. The pedal reflectors finally made me snap.


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## Go Kart Motzart (Jan 2, 2004)

Which company has "bad" looking welds? I worked at a shop for 6 yrs and have been around bikes my whole life and have yet to see any that look bad. 

Maybe I've overlooked something. Please inform me.


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## UberFly (Apr 10, 2006)

I like the way carbon bikes look - no welds - just a seamless frame. The Cannondales come close to that look with the smooth welds but nothing quite looks as good as perfectly smooth carbon. 

Oh and I have a machine welded Giant Trance 1 - welded aluminum is just ugly!


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## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

Go Kart Motzart said:


> Which company has "bad" looking welds? I worked at a shop for 6 yrs and have been around bikes my whole life and have yet to see any that look bad.
> Maybe I've overlooked something. Please inform me.


Let me introduce you to......drumroll please......Spicer Cycles!......


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## wickerman1 (Dec 24, 2003)

*Confused?*



mtnpat said:


> Moots
> 
> Kinda hard to see in the pic, but the welds on this bike are awesome!


That bike seems confused... maybe it wants to be a buck??


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## losiracer (Sep 16, 2005)

So sad......


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## Whafe (May 27, 2004)

For me, would have to say on Ali, the best welds are on a the Nicolai frames. Moots are for sure up there......... The Ti welds on my ExoGrid ML are pretty sweet too though, dam fine.

J Chicken makes a re very relevant point, so depends on the material used....


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## Ladies Man (Oct 23, 2006)

Damn! That Moots pic made me laugh... What is up with the "ape hangers" and super tall neck? I would love to see that thing being ridden off a jump  It makes no sense to me why one would want a full suspension rig with such a tall front end. Oh well, if it makes you happy, that is what matters. I'm still smiling though...


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## xKREDx (Aug 8, 2006)

East Coast Bender said:


> Game Over


wow......:thumbsup:


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## jtrider (Mar 6, 2005)

Cannondale !


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## fat_weasel (Jan 9, 2005)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> I saved that pic for later use.
> 
> Perfect example of the wrong tool for the job and more money than skill.


Jeez, give the guy a break. Maybe he's got back problems and needs a tall front end.


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## Fulton (Feb 6, 2004)

i'm taking classes to become a certified welder, I've owned litespeed, and intense, klein, dean, i'm buying a ventana, seen numerous 7 and moot's ( i did own a moots seatpost), but hands down, no messing around, Kish titanium is the best I have ever seen. Purfict.


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## Fulton (Feb 6, 2004)

mtnpat said:


> Moots
> 
> Kinda hard to see in the pic, but the welds on this bike are awesome!


man, I'm tempted to say something mean...but...damn...just get rid of the bar ends...damn


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

mtnpat said:


> Moots
> Kinda hard to see in the pic, but the welds on this bike are awesome!


This Moots was from an e-bay auction last summer. It was part of a matched pair of Moots belonging to a well-off elderly couple that wanted comfortable town bikes. Their nephew was selling the bikes for them. Don't laugh - Because the bikes were "less than attractive", they went for well below market price. Someone got a screaming deal, and all they had to do was change out a few parts.

On another note, I like the welds on my Moots, but I prefer the look of my lugged steel frame.


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## The Weasel (Dec 22, 2003)

mtnpat said:


> Moots
> 
> Kinda hard to see in the pic, but the welds on this bike are awesome!


I don't have my glasses on. Is that one of Santa's reindeer?


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

meloh1 said:


> LOL. Everybody here is talking about how good they look, not how good they are. It takes destructive testing or, at least, xrays to determine the quality of a weld. Looks have very little to do with how good the weld is.


Absolutely!!!, not one X-ray here.

I bet a robot can now do better than a human??


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## jetfan2207 (Nov 5, 2006)

jtrider said:


> Cannondale !


+1
How do they get them so clean that you can't see them? Do they use some sort of filler to smooth over the weld marks?


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## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

Check out the Badger Dorothy @ ridedorothy.com. This is steel fillet brazing at it's finest.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

fat_weasel said:



> Jeez, give the guy a break. Maybe he's got back problems and needs a tall front end.


He needs a cruiser. The bike's geometry wasn't designed to be ridden like that.

Still, the pic is now in my collection to use against others.

reminds me of Jm.'s old avatar.


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## elephant (Mar 21, 2006)

Although not welding, which is what the original poster asked about:

Bilenky Cycle Works makes some exquisite fillet brazed frames.

See for yourself at their website and you can see my MTB in their gallery.


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## BikeMojo (Jan 6, 2005)

grawbass said:


> Welds don't get much better than that.





Mike T. said:


> Top this. And this is sitting on my Seven frame -


For Ti... Wes Williams of Willits Brand. (And I own a Ti IF).





















crux said:


> Was asking more about who welds the best steel frame.
> 
> Ti - Moots and Independent Fabrications have always been very nice
> Alloy - Think that Ventana puts out some fine work
> Steel - ???





XC Dawg said:


> However I think the absolute best I've seen is IF, I actually got to compare both side by side and the IF welds were non-existent, just looked like a single mold (almost reminded me of my carbon frames)
> 
> having said that, I'd take either one of them anyday!


Crux, IF's Ti welds are like a stack of dimes... But their steel frames look like they are held together by paint.

Check out For the love of Independent Fabrications--MTBR Spotlight on IF


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## Kyle509 (Jul 19, 2006)




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## Twisted Trail (Oct 13, 2006)

*Ellsworth and Klein-waterloo*

Its really true that LOOKING at a weld will only tell you if you have a really bad weld, and won't necessarly tell you if its a GOOD weld. And its certainly true that you can't compare AL, Ti, and Steel welds/brazing.

My Ellsworth aluminum weld is not "smooth" but it sure looks to be well done, and I like how they work it in with the anodized finish.

Someone mentioned the Klein-Trek aluminum welds, so I tossed in a photo of my old Klein Pulse with its "easy-chip" neon red paint job, and hulky but effective welds.

I think this thread is interesting not as a competition, but just to get a close look at a variety of welding techniques. An interesting study.


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## WalterN (Sep 9, 2004)

*What about Sinister?*

I can't believe no one has mentioned Sinister Bikes. When you have a legend like Frank Wadelton (a.k.a. Frank the Welder) welding every frame, you have to put these guys at the top of the list.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Well I can't find a good picture of their welds but I can't believe no one has mentioned Nicolai yet. Hands-down the best alu welds I've ever seen.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

What about steel ???

Here are some shots of some of the welds that come out of our shop here at Nemesis Project . Guys let me know what you think ?



















Here's a shot of the work getting done !


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## WTB-rider (Jul 25, 2004)

When you're talking about steel, I don't think anyone can compare to Steve Potts as a pure freehand welder. Steve, Tom Ritchey and Ross Shafer are true artisians of steel.


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## Brandon448 (Mar 23, 2006)

fat_weasel said:


> Jeez, give the guy a break. Maybe he's got back problems and needs a tall front end.


There is "tall front end" and then there is mounting an Elks head to the front of a sweet mountain bike!!! Shheeeeesh that thing is just butchered looks like someone's idea of a bad joke just to get people here on mtbr twisted up


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## EDDIE JONES (Mar 26, 2005)

Independent Fabrications wins the steel weld contest hands down. Their welds are absolutely seamless.


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

mtnpat said:


> Moots
> 
> Kinda hard to see in the pic, but the welds on this bike are awesome!


that build is...well, unreal.


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

WalterN said:


> I can't believe no one has mentioned Sinister Bikes. When you have a legend like Frank Wadelton (a.k.a. Frank the Welder) welding every frame, you have to put these guys at the top of the list.


he's been hyped. i've seen his welds and they're not all that. ever since he left yeti, their welds have gotten better. i'm sure he knows a titload about welding, but i question the steadiness of his hands.


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

very nice welds, brad! now where is that FR/AM bike??


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

*Ftw*

He's a good welder, but I think he's way overhyped, just as many things are in the industry. Attach a FTW to anything and it turns a pile of dogcrap into pancakes.


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## MartinS (Jan 31, 2004)

*Mmmm, Steel...*

Another steel guy to consider is Chris DeKerf, his original Tange Ritchey tubed bikes were mighty pretty.
Sycip is damn nice, the old FatChances, now IFab were/are great.
I remember back in the early BMX days Jim Melton at JMC did some sweet work - wonder what happened to him...
Another up and comer is Anvil, I've seen a couple of their steel bikes that were impressive.


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

sgltrak said:


> This Moots was from an e-bay auction last summer. It was part of a matched pair of Moots belonging to a well-off elderly couple that wanted comfortable town bikes. Their nephew was selling the bikes for them. Don't laugh - Because the bikes were "less than attractive", they went for well below market price. Someone got a screaming deal, and all they had to do was change out a few parts.
> 
> On another note, I like the welds on my Moots, but I prefer the look of my lugged steel frame.


That's just wrong...

The Wilits Ti welds win so far, IMO. Keep 'em coming.


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## jfkbike2 (Feb 8, 2005)

I'll second Moots.


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## Juan Speeder (Jan 13, 2005)

crux said:


> Was asking more about who welds the best steel frame.
> 
> Ti - Moots and Independent Fabrications have always been very nice
> Alloy - Think that Ventana puts out some fine work
> Steel - ???


Steel?

Steelman does very good work.


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## miSSionary (Jun 29, 2005)

Black Sheep
Kent Erickson


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## Twisted Trail (Oct 13, 2006)

*proof is in the pudding*



miSSionary said:


> Black Sheep
> Kent Erickson


You HAVE to include photos or it doesn't count. :nono:

Heck I could claim to do the best welds MYSELF without a photo.

Whatever happened to brazed lugs for steel anyway? Just curious.

I like pictures..:arf:


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## edemtbs (Apr 12, 2005)

Twisted Trail said:


> You HAVE to include photos or it doesn't count. :nono:
> 
> I like pictures..:arf:


I'll rescue miSSionMan but he's on his own with spelling Eriksen 

Kent Eriksen, or more accurately, Chris Moore ti welds. Chris works at Kent Eriksen Cycles in Steamboat CO as the welder. He used to weld for Moots. Moots still has excellent welders.

Ed E


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

WTB-rider said:


> When you're talking about steel, I don't think anyone can compare to Steve Potts as a pure freehand welder. Steve, Tom Ritchey and Ross Shafer are true artisians of steel.


Thank you. I'll second that list.

Keep in mind these guys can throw down brass!


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## rm_racer (Feb 3, 2006)

that eriksen is jesus. and that moots frame is simply flawless. i like smoothed welds only when it all flows together in a single curve, cannondale is close, but no. i like the raw-looking welds (stacked dimes if that's what you want to call it). it looks so perfect of the eriksen and moots frames...that ellsworth is pretty good too.


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## eabos (Jun 11, 2005)

I never paid much attention to welds but I'm sitting here looking at my bikes and there is really something to be said about nice welding. On my Ellsworth Moment the big fat stack o' dimes looks so cool with the anodized finish but then when I look at my Cannondale road bike it looks seemless. They are both aestheticlly beautiful and I don't know which is better but I can say that I had a Kona frame that while riding both top tube and downtube snapped at the same time (about 1 inch from the welds) on a DH run. The bike shop guy showed me how the inside of the tube was white and looked "crystalized" because it was likely heated up too much while being welded. Kona ended up replacing the frame at no cost so it all worked out. 

Is there a way to spot a weak weld (before the weld fails)?


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## zon (Nov 4, 2004)

lushmd said:


> For aluminum, Ventana hands down.


I'll second that. They don't call it Electric Sex for nothing. :thumbsup:


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## zon (Nov 4, 2004)

meloh1 said:


> LOL. Everybody here is talking about how good they look, not how good they are. It takes destructive testing or, at least, xrays to determine the quality of a weld. Looks have very little to do with how good the weld is.


Yep, I pretty much put the Ventana welds through intensive destructive testing every time I bomb down a rocky section of trail with my 210lbs beating the crap out of the frame.  Zero failures. :thumbsup:


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## zon (Nov 4, 2004)

mtnpat said:


> Moots
> 
> Kinda hard to see in the pic, but the welds on this bike are awesome!


You betcha they are hard to see.  All I see are those ginormous bar ends on those paper boy risers!


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## el-cid (May 21, 2004)

Hmm, how the [email protected] did I miss this forum for so long? I'd have to throw in a vote for Carl Strong's steel welding. I own bikes from IF, Vicious Cycles, SyCip, Strong, Bontrager, Titus, and have a Ventana coming and I think Strong's is the most impressive. My Strong literally looks like the tubes grew together. I'll take some detail shots of each of the bikes sometime in the next few days.


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## Aktion (Mar 19, 2007)

Ted's weld's:


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## Slow Eddie (Jun 13, 2007)

*+1 for Ted*



Aktion said:


> Ted's weld's:


Ted Wojcik's welds are unfathomably smooth. My '95 SofTrac FS looks like it was cast as a single unit. :thumbsup:


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## edouble (Apr 16, 2004)

*Not!!!!...*



EDDIE JONES said:


> Independent Fabrications wins the steel weld contest hands down. Their welds are absolutely seamless.


I have seen plenty of IF's and they dont hold a candle to my Ted Wojcik. Me and a guy that owned a Seven went around at Blue hills mtb day and compared lots of frames and Teds were the best in his and my opinion. Thats one of the reasons (but far from all) I own a Ted 29er. I need to take some high quality pics of the invisible welds on my bike to show people what I am talking about.


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## edouble (Apr 16, 2004)

*Damn, thats what I be talkin' bout'...*



Aktion said:


> Ted's weld's:


Class is in session, so the rest can stop guessin', time for them to listen to the teacher and the lesson, lol :cornut:. TED IS ABSOLUTELY KILLIN' EM :thumbsup: . THANKS FOR POSTING THE KNOCKOUT PUNCH!!!.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

I briefly owned one of Ted's FS soft tracs and I gotta say that front triangle was a work of art! How does he get the welds to "vanish" if you will? Secret Technique??


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

shiggy said:


> I do not know of any robotic welders being used in the industry. Taiwan frame factories are staffed with skilled human welders.


No offense intended, I assume you're joking? Merida owns a controlling interest in Specialized, and the vast bulk of their welders eat 220V DC, not Corn Flakes. I will safely guess that they are not alone in using robotics.....


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

DeeEight Cannondale (always) use a lot of double-pass welds... they lay one bead over top of another said:


> Gonna go to bat with ya on this one. Been to the factory, sold a ton, talked with welders, reps etc. They do not double pass, ever. It's a proprietary process involving a MIG type wire feed, sans electricity, and a TIG torch. The ability to dump a ton of wire on the puddle enables them to do a broad sweeping stroke, laying down, and stitching it all together in one pass. They do not sand/grind down dimes, they use a narrow high speed belt to blend the transition between weld and tube, thus reducing stress risers.


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## ted wojcik (Mar 12, 2006)

I once told a visitor at our vender's booth that I set the tubes up in a jig and surge 50,000 volts through the tubes and they just bond together. I'm not sure if he believed me or not, but he seemed content with the answer. I use pulse TIG, a non-disclosed filler wire and lot's of practice, no filing or grinding.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

ted wojcik said:


> set the tubes up in a jig and surge 50,000 volts through the tubes and they just bond together.


Isn't someone in the industry doing something like that? They called it like, Electropulse Fusion, or some silly thing. It was a cheaper bike sort of company, maybe Canadian, or French? I'm being serious too, it sticks in my head for some reason. They were all about it too, like it was going to make them sell a ton more bikes, whatever....


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## totally_fixxated (Aug 24, 2005)

*flash butt process*

Sun welds their rims in a similar fashion.

http://www.sun-ringle.com/wheelscience.php5



ted wojcik said:


> I use pulse TIG, a non-disclosed filler wire and lot's of practice, no filing or grinding.


Like a very, very small stack of nickels! Beautiful! :thumbsup:

Ted


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## HellMuttCracker (Jan 13, 2004)

Fulton said:


> i'm taking classes to become a certified welder, I've owned litespeed, and intense, klein, dean, i'm buying a ventana, seen numerous 7 and moot's ( i did own a moots seatpost), but hands down, no messing around, Kish titanium is the best I have ever seen. Purfict.


I have a kish zona road bike and a kish ti mtb and I can say that the welds on both of them are better than anything else on th market.

just my opinion.


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## Bombardier (Jul 13, 2005)

For the sheer amount of welding on my Santa Cruz Nomad, I am still really impressed by the quality of the beads. On the top tube, the welds aren't perfectly straight, but they're still laid extremely well. I'd take a pic, but it's dark out.

Ya'll should look at Rivendell's and Retrotec's bikes, some of the most beautiful lug-work out there.


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## grawbass (Aug 23, 2004)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Isn't someone in the industry doing something like that? They called it like, Electropulse Fusion, or some silly thing. It was a cheaper bike sort of company, maybe Canadian, or French? I'm being serious too, it sticks in my head for some reason. They were all about it too, like it was going to make them sell a ton more bikes, whatever....


Are you thinking of the old Schwinn Electro Forged frames?

http://sheldonbrown.com/varsity.html


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

Rivet said:


> Yep, except the guy who welded that is now welding Eriksens.


Strike two for this thread Rivet! Kent is a designer and businessman, he has employees for the welding.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

Rivet said:


> They are robot welded, Merida owns just under controlling interest in Specialized, saved them from bankruptcy a few years back. It's no coincidence these two suspensions look the same, Specialized "borrowed" the initial design from Merida.


The Epic came out just before the Merida buy-out, and the Merida shown was 1-2 years after the Epic introduction. It was the other way around. Not that it matters that much.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

Klein Freak said:


> I always liked the older Klein welds. But as mentioned, it's all in the eye of the beholder. While a nice stack of dimes can look beautiful, there's something to be said about the nearly seamless transitions that Klein used back in the day. The first picture is a my basicly NOS 1994 Attitude, the second picture is the 1996 Mantra Pro that I just retired (I have another for "show" as well). The '96 Pro is in my opinion one of the most beautiful aluminum framesets produced. The welds are clean and the tube forms are unbelievable. I do notice a difference in quality between my Pre-Trek/Trek Kleins. The last pic is a shot of my Intense Tracer. The welds are good - I'd say they're a little better than those on my Salsa Juan Solo. Not the "best" by any means, though.


Yes, my vote for favorite would be the pre-trek Klein frames as well, also due to the many-shapes chainstays. ooh lah lah


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## AllKnowing (Nov 5, 2007)

Well i got a $150 Royce Union 650 AL frame and it easily stacks up against the other AL welds ive seen.


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## Sinjin4131 (Feb 27, 2007)

*Can I play??*

My Mountain Goat, welded by Sycip...


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Sinjin4131 said:


> My Mountain Goat, welded by Sycip...


Those look suspiciously like Rivendell headtube lugs, know if they are? Gorgeous bike BTW :thumbsup:


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

I think they're Bocama head tube rings. Distinctive.

Did not know that Sycip was behind the new Mountain Goats. Wonder if they're more popular than the equivalent Sycip.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

D.F.L. said:


> I think they're Bocama head tube rings. Distinctive.


Oh yeah, duh! Guess if I'd spent a few more seconds looking, I would have noticed the lack of full lug.....:thumbsup:


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Looks cool! Is there a structural reason for the rings, or purely asthetics? Out of curiosity, does the rest of the bike have "unlugs" too? MorePics!


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## bikin222 (Apr 23, 2007)

Another vote for Carl " The Snarl"....Vicious


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