# San Juan Huts Disaster! (don't do it!!!)



## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Having read about the San Juan Huts in blogs and magazines, my brother and I thought it would be the perfect way to spend a week this summer. Were both avid MBikers and neither of us had ever ridden in Colorado. We decided to do the harder of the two routes, Durango to Moab. This route was supposed to have a lot of single track alternates, not just riding all day on fire roads like the Teluride version..
Now posting a rant post aside, the trip was beautiful, however it was totally ruined, because of the frustration and danger we kept getting into. Joe, the owner/operater of the huts sent us a packet with some very undescriptive maps in it, so we bought better maps, (lat 40's) brought Gps's, and rented a satellite phone to make sure we werent in any danger. Unfortunately for us, day one started off the troubles.
We decided to take a single track alternative and ride the colorado trail instead of boring service roads the first day. The colorado trail was amazing. It was way more rugged than we'd expected, but really, really, beautiful views were an all day pleasure. We ended up spending 7 hours or so riding the Colorado trail until we popped out onto the "normal" route via a service road. Problem 1...None of these roads have any signs. and problem two- Joe didnt bother to give GPS co - ordinates to any of the huts. I guess he doesnt think thats important. The hut consists of a red dot on the mpa off one side of the trail. However, he HIDES the huts to keep them out of view discouraging any break ins. This made it extremely difficult to find them after a full days ride..We eventually had to bust out our Satellite phone and at the tune of 3 dollars a minute have a 15 minute conversation with him to find where the hut was. Of course we had to backtrack for an hour...
This continued to be the problem throughout the rest of the trip. When it came time to find the huts, they were impossible to find. Hours at the end of each days ride of frustration trying to find the huts became common. We just couldnt believe that he wouldnt include any directions or GPS co ordinates...THe maps he provided are crap, and the alternate routes were for the most part dirt road alternates. The 4th day was just down right dangerous. We had dropped down to around the 6,000 ft elevation, so temps were a lot hotter. Around 90 degress ,with no shelter. At the end of the day, no hut in sight. We called him for the 3rd time (up to about a $100.00 in satellite phone bill by now!) and from our description, he didnt even know where we were...Eventually I had to leave my brother behind and search for the hut. We were both without water in direct sunlight exercising for about 4 hours now (10 hours into the ride) and I tried in vein to find the hut. I got so dehydrated that I started to get delirious. I hiked up to the top of a mountain to get my bearings and was so out of it, I lost my bike in the woods. THis was just downright dumb. I could see the other adventurers tracks with there bikes trying to find the hut as well. Finally after 11 hours in the saddle I found it, loaded up with water , and rode back to get my brother. 
We skipped out at the end of day 5 with two huts to go because we had allready covered all 215 miles that the trip was supposed to cover in the 5 days due to being lost. The huts have logs in them and many, many other people wrote in them complaining about the poor routes and directions. It was so frustrating it almost ruined a trip we'd been planning for almost a year. 
When we got home we contacted him and asked for a partial refund for the 2 huts we didnt use..Let alone the $100.00 dollar sat phone bill. he refused of course, showing a shady business man. I wanted to ket others know that this trip is dangerous, and not worth doing. Unless he takes the time to add gps co- ordinates to his huts, or gets some VERY detailed trail maps, I dont know why he would send people out there to get lost in the wilderness.



The first pics are from day 1 on the colorado trail, mostly around 12,000 ft of elevation.
From there you can see the scenery change as we loose altitude, many of these pics were snapped as we were lost, looking at the maps to try and get our bearings. And finally getting picked up 2 days early since we were frustrated beyond reason to keep searching for hidden huts!


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## CEB (Mar 17, 2005)

Oh that sucked...........

But what an adventure to tell your grandkidz about!


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

CEB said:


> Oh that sucked...........
> 
> But what an adventure to tell your grandkidz about!


 Ha- Funny- Yeah it will go something like this- Here's a tale about how your grandpa and his brother wasted there week of vacation pay, scared the hell out of there wives (never allowing them to do anything like this again i assume) and spent $750.00 dollars each almost dying from dehydration and exposure!!!:thumbsup:

I see your point though, it was still an "adventure" just not the one we signed up for!!


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## jrendrag (Nov 30, 2006)

This is dosboy's brother... the other participant in this mis-adventure. It was a really frustrating trip, I spoke to Joe (of San Juan Huts) and he told me that we should have printed detailed written instructions from their website. Apparently, that would have been a big help to us when tring to find the huts??? Well, if it's so important why didn't you include it in the packet with the maps! Anyways, written directions aside, I just think it was a poor way to spend a vacation... too much suffering and not enough fun cause you're constantly worried about trail navigation. Worried that you might be pedaling the wrong direction and have to back track! Uugghhh 
Not to mention that after riding all day you just don't have the desire to cook/clean a big meal... did I say too much suffering!!!


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

jrendrag I spoke to Joe (of San Juan Huts) and he told me that we should have printed detailed written instructions from their website. Apparently said:


> Also we emailed and called him repeatedly to see if there were any written instructions before we left for the trip just to make sure..If it was that important, a call back would have been nice. During our several $3.00 a minute conversations he never mentioned anything about written instructions either...What decade do we live in...Is it the ,"turn right 4 feet after the crooked split tree, then go right 9 bike lengths before the wasps nest" CMON MAN GPS CO-ORDINATES PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ryman (May 4, 2004)

just checked the website...most of the instructions are either on a GE kmz file or listed as a mileage between the huts. Not a ton of help

Sounds like one of these trips would be best done with someone who has done it before and knows the route. Yeah, it'd be best to have the route GPS'ed in the info packet like you said


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Yeah from the log book I read, I would assume most of those people probably had the extra downloaded instructions, Or if there like us they had a hard time finding them and didnt...Anyways like I said earlier, a lot of others commented in the cabin journals that they had gotten majorly lost, or couldnt find the cabins and had to call the owner/operator to find them. I also was amazed at all of the tracks in the soil of other lost bikers. I would see footprints withina few miles prox of where the huts were to be, followed by a bike tire line..THinking (this must be it) because of the tracks, I would follow lots and lots of them (probably 10 sets on each false hut turn off) meaning, lots of people were searching many, many times to find these things. I just cant believe that he doesnt have like a secret ribbon or other indicator where the turn off is for the hut...Thats wy I was so frustrated. Its so unnecessary to have your people who are paying you good money go through this frustration.....:madman:


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## Redmon (Jan 12, 2004)

Seems like alot of money for what you get. Are the huts stocked with anything? Seems to me the least they could do is provide clear directions.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

oh yea I know what you mean...
check out my blog on the huts
we had gps points because one of our crew managed to find some from the year before and at the last minute plugged them in....saved our lives. Day 4 was a bad day for us as well. We had decided to do the alternate on that day......


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Redmon said:


> Cant imagine what you would have done without the satellite phone. Sounds like a crappy way to run a business. I would have to look at the website and read the fine print.


 Yeah thats what we thought. We wanted some sort of compensation, but thought it only fair to pay for the food we ate at the 4 huts we did use...So we asked to be compensated for the last two huts that we didnt even use the food (in other words it didnt cost the owner anything because we never used them)...I thought it was a reasonable request..We didnt even ask for compensation for the $100 dollar satellite phone bill w eracked up talking to him 4 different times. He wouldnt have it..No way would he refund a cent. WHat a crappy way to run a business you say???? I couldnt agree more..:madmax:


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## ryman (May 4, 2004)

are ya reading this Joe?


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## aosty (Jan 7, 2004)

Impy said:


> oh yea I know what you mean...
> check out my blog on the huts
> we had gps points because one of our crew managed to find some from the year before and at the last minute plugged them in....saved our lives. Day 4 was a bad day for us as well. We had decided to do the alternate on that day......


Our day 4 ... ya....  Some of the directions are out right wrong - after the alternate route, that right turn on the directions is actually a left.      

I totally agree they should provide GPS tracks... they were even reluctant to send us directions electronically at all... had to ask about 5x to get them.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

aosty said:


> Our day 4 ... ya....  Some of the directions are out right wrong - after the alternate route, that right turn on the directions is actually a left.
> 
> I totally agree they should provide GPS tracks... they were even reluctant to send us directions electronically at all... had to ask about 5x to get them.


 That right hand turn you talk about, thats the EXACT one that led my brother and I the wrong direction..Added an extra 5 HOURS!!!!!!!!! to out day, and almost cost us our lives (but since we had a sat phone it would have been more like a $10,000 extraction bill for search and rescue!!!!!!!!)


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

dosboy said:


> That right hand turn you talk about, thats the EXACT one that led my brother and I the wrong direction..Added an extra 5 HOURS!!!!!!!!! to out day, and almost cost us our lives (but since we had a sat phone it would have been more like a $10,000 extraction bill for search and rescue!!!!!!!!)


That is a crime that that hasn't been fixed in the directions. We did our hut trip a full year ago.


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## aosty (Jan 7, 2004)

Impy said:


> That is a crime that that hasn't been fixed in the directions. We did our hut trip a full year ago.


One year, two months, four days, two hours, twenty-five minutes!!


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

I just sent Joe an email telling him about this thread. I mentioned that he has a certain responsibility as an outfitter sending people out to these remote huts to give clear, concise, directions. I once again asked for a refund for my brother and I for the to huts we didnt even make it to ( couldve asked for a refund for the whole trip, I think we deserve it). I asked him to please take some gps co-ordinated of the huts next time he stocks them and mail them with the info packet. I also asked him to please include some quality maps (hell the trip costs enough to get some good maps you'd think)...Hopefully he does the right thing and acts like a responsible business owner. I'll let you all know if he comes through..Maybey in the mean time we can all encourage Joe to do the right thing, and at least fix the directions on day 4 that are flat OUT WRONG!!!!!


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## Redmon (Jan 12, 2004)

Impy said:


> oh yea I know what you mean...
> check out my blog on the huts
> we had gps points because one of our crew managed to find some from the year before and at the last minute plugged them in....saved our lives. Day 4 was a bad day for us as well. We had decided to do the alternate on that day......


Great write up on the blog, that sounds positively painful:thumbsup:


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## clarkgriswald (Dec 19, 2003)

*A little devils advocate*

here. A few minutes of online research would have uncovered a lot of the negative experiences you had. And when you received the package of materials and you saw the maps were crap and responses to your questions slow and vague, time to move on.

You had plenty of warning signs prior to starting your trip. You chose not to listen to them.

Welcome to adventure vacations. Sometimes they suck and some operators are a&&holes.

With all that being said, one of the exceptional adventure vacation operators is Western Spirit.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

Hilarious.

You brought a sat phone?

You new you were in trouble from the beginning then. It's like carrying a slug gun in arctic expecting polar bears. Don't blame someone else when you have to use it.

What happened to the old days when there were no GPSes?-- you didn't blame someone else on your lack of navigation skills.

This sounds more of an example of some people getting in way over their head.


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## longman (May 9, 2007)

proper preparation prevents piss poor performance people!


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## NoahColorado (Aug 3, 2004)

lidarman said:


> This sounds more of an example of some people getting in way over their head.


Hehe. You never disappoint....


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

lidarman said:


> This sounds more of an example of some people getting in way over their head.


Yep.

Not saying that it really sounds like this 'Joe' character is any help to the story(remember Impy/aosty's trip report last year), but it sure does sound like you two were in a bit over your heads. Either that or you simply underestimated what that part of the state is like.


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## aosty (Jan 7, 2004)

More devil advocating...

Despite the crappy directions, questionably stocked huts, warm beer, hot beer, hassles, hardships, risks, tears, misery, heat, etc., we had a blast........ and I would consider doing another hut trip under the right circumstances.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

lidarman said:


> Hilarious.
> 
> You brought a sat phone?
> 
> ...


How was your hut trip experience?


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## aosty (Jan 7, 2004)

> What happened to the old days when there were no GPSes?-- you didn't blame someone else on your lack of navigation skills.
> 
> This sounds more of an example of some people getting in way over their head.


Please re-read - you're missing the part where the provided directions are flat out wrong.

Example - if it's 105F degrees and step #3 is wrong, it's going to be a long day. Forget the GPS/phone/whatever.

1) turn right at a
2) turn right at b
3) turn left at c
4) turn right at d
5) turn left at e
6) turn left at f
7) hut x!!


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## longman (May 9, 2007)

aosty said:


> Please re-read - you're missing the part where the provided directions are flat out wrong.
> 
> Example - if it's 105F degrees and step #3 is wrong, it's going to be a long day. Forget the GPS/phone/whatever.
> 
> ...


so you brought a gun and bear spray 'just in case' but you didn't bring a compass and the skills to use it 'just in case'? Typical of people this day and age with the 'someone else is to blame' mentality.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

longman said:


> so you brought a gun and bear spray 'just in case' but you didn't bring a compass and the skills to use it 'just in case'? Typical of people this day and age with the 'someone else is to blame' mentality.


 Your Focking kidding me right? Did I not mention we had two gps's, bought 3 addtl very detailed maps, and brought a sat phone along with us? O BTW you do know GPS's have a compas built into them right? Way in over our heads??Give me a break.. I live in utah, and do at least 1-2 major 10 hour epic rides in the middle of nowhere in the high mountains or st george desserts. I know how to read a GPS, I know how to read a map, we weren't way over our heads, were both Eagle scouts. This is not a case being idiots, and trying to pass the buck; THE DIRECTIONS WERE FLAT OUT WRONG! THE DUDE DOESNT EVEN KNOW HIS OWN TRAILS WHEN WE WERE TALKING TO HIM> HE DIDNT KNOW ANY MAJOR LANDMARKS?? HE DIDNT HAVE ANY GPS CO-ORDINATES! Jeez dude, your an ass.....


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Consider that if the huts were all easy to find you would very likely have arrived at several of them to find them broken into, trashed inside, looted of all food and sleeping goods, if not downright gutted or burned to the ground.

Sorry you had a bad trip, but methinks you ought mellow a bit on the 'it's all his fault' line. No one put a gun to your head and told you you HAD to go on this trip.

MC


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

clarkgriswald said:


> here. A few minutes of online research would have uncovered a lot of the negative experiences you had. And when you received the package of materials and you saw the maps were crap and responses to your questions slow and vague, time to move on.
> 
> You had plenty of warning signs prior to starting your trip. You chose not to listen to them.
> 
> ...


 Let me ask you a question. You've allready paid for the trip..I did do some research...A guy named washedup said he had a good experience (even though he said they got lost a few times). After we recieved the crappy maps, it was too late..He doesnt give refunds.So your allready out over a grand..Would you be willing to walk away from all your money? Or would you buy as many maps as you could get ahold of, take every precaution you could(sat phone gps's) and give it a go? I see what your saying though, we just werent willing to walk away from our money...Without our precautions we would have been in serious trouble..


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

lidarman said:


> Hilarious.
> 
> You brought a sat phone?
> 
> ...


 Once again, this is supposed to be a mapped out, planned trip, masterminded by someone who's supposed to know this wilderness inside and out. I wouldnt blame someone else for my so-called lack of navigation skills, if I wasnt paying him to take care of the route for me. Its supposed to be a route that is somewhat easy to follow with some (which we both possess) simple navigation skills. Man whats with all the assumptions that were just a couple of yuppies whose never been in the wilderness all about??? 
If you had been in our position and got the phone bill, you might be a little upset. It was supposed to be used if one of us was eaten by a bear, or had an open fracture from a nasty fall, not to find the damn hut thats stocked with food and water/shelter that we paid for....Is this starting to make sence to you ?????


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

mikesee said:


> Consider that if the huts were all easy to find you would very likely have arrived at several of them to find them broken into, trashed inside, looted of all food and sleeping goods, if not downright gutted or burned to the ground.
> 
> Sorry you had a bad trip, but methinks you ought mellow a bit on the 'it's all his fault' line. No one put a gun to your head and told you you HAD to go on this trip.
> 
> MC


 I allready mentioned why the huts were off the beaten path, read my original post again... I understand the reason, Im just saying, if your gonna HIDE your huts, lets figure out a way for people who paid for them to find them... Here's som esimple suggestions..
1- Mark the co-ordinants on a gps and supply them to the customer..THat would be kind of fun, like a geo cache..
2- how bout a funky little flag on the side of the road with a certain symbol or color..Then let your customers know about it..
3- How bout some directions of any kind sent out with the POS maps..

Also Methinks I havent ever mentioned "its all his fault"...If I felt that way I would ask for a full refund and say noone should ever ever do this POS trip... All I said, is that if he had some descent maps, and gps co-ordinates, the trip would be a lot better. It really was fun. We had some experiences that I'll remember for the rest of my life. It had some of the most beautiful views I've ever seen in my entire life..It was a true adventure. 
I just wish that this awesome adventure hadnt been ruined by the teeth grinding frustration of not being able to find your food/shelter, and flat out wrong directions steering us off in the wrong direction in 90 degree temps with no shelter...


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## Hollywood (Dec 30, 2003)

mikesee said:


> Consider that if the huts were all easy to find you would very likely have arrived at several of them to find them broken into, trashed inside, looted of all food and sleeping goods, if not downright gutted or burned to the ground.
> 
> Sorry you had a bad trip, but methinks you ought mellow a bit on the 'it's all his fault' line. No one put a gun to your head and told you you HAD to go on this trip.
> 
> MC


I did the Durango-Moab trip with aosty & Impy. The 'lost" day was bad but we made it, thanks to resourceful people pre-trip and a GPS, which we turned on only for that crisis. About half of the huts are visible, they're not all hidden. If you happen to be in the area you'll spot them however most locations are really remote.

One analogy is: you post that you're coming to LA on vacation. I recommend an awesome ride and post directions to the trailhead. Oops!! I meant "north on the 405", not "south". My bad. Sorry you wasted a tank of gas and one full day of unpaid vacation. You shoulda had a compass, moron! 

all that said, I'd do the Telluride Hut trip. Doubtful I'd do Durango again. Checked it off my list. Like anything else (well, maybe not for the OP), I remember more good than bad.

// OP: You ride a Jones. That in itself DQ's you from whining of any sort. "I'm lost in the desert and had to resort to drinking my own urine, but god damn look at THAT BIKE!!!!"


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## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

Sorry to hear your ride sucked ass and you almost died.

Turn his ass into the better business bureau and both of you write up a nice testimony of what you were promised, what you were given, what services were asked for and not rendered, and what you expected as fair compensation.

Send one copy to the BBB and one copy to the owner. Inform the owner he has 30 days to comply or you will be seeking legal representation for fraud.

Did you sign any sort of waiver to go on this trip? If not then you could easily file further charges against this gentleman. If you did sign a waiver then I'd have a lawyer go over it and see what can be done in a civil matter.

Good luck


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## verve825 (Mar 16, 2005)

Honestly, I simply could not read any more of your diatribe after perching mine eyes upon this gem:

"and rented a satellite phone to make sure we werent in any danger."

If you want to ensure a lack of "danger" go to Disneyworld. If, if the other hand, you'd like experience nature- and, at least as important- your brain and self on their own, please avail yourself to exploring places where places don't necessarily have neon signage every 50 feet. 

I've done the same trip several times with no problems, and have enjoyed every minute. 

Go your way, man, and enjoy. But there are other of us who live for the states of being you detest. Stay within yourself, and you'll be cool. We be comfortable, also.

Regards,

jb


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## verve825 (Mar 16, 2005)

DrNickels said:


> If you did sign a waiver then I'd have a lawyer go over it and see what can be done in a civil matter.


Do you completely lack ANY sense of adventure and self-reliance, you litigious nincompoop? I laugh heartily at your lack of sack and wherewithal. May you ride paved, signed "trails" for the rest of your years.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

verve825 said:


> Honestly, I simply could not read any more of your diatribe after perching mine eyes upon this gem:
> 
> "and rented a satellite phone to make sure we werent in any danger."
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the response. Glad you had a good time. I rented a SAT phone for 3 reasons. 
1- My wife was 7.5 months pregnant, I wanted to know if she went into premature labor, or some other emergency.
2- Bear country- who the hell knows what could happen
3- Something as stupid as a little endo could brake a clavicle or some other injury that could make you immoble. A tacoed wheel could strand you in an instant. Renting a sat phone for something like this is just common sence. Not some yuppy way of having "an out".....Funny so many people dont understand this.. Im a nurse In an O.R. Its amazing the injuries you can get at 5 miles an hour..You never know...Good to be able to call in Life flight if need be..
Hope that clarifies things a bit....:thumbsup:


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## nOOby (Jul 20, 2007)

verve, you might want to read the rest of the thread, your assumptions have been addressed

i think it's perfectly reasonable to get good directions from a paid service like this.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

verve825 said:


> Honestly, I simply could not read any more of your diatribe
> jb


 Definition of diatribe (noun) bitter or abusive speech; tirade ...

I dont know about your use of big words, but I re-read my OP and Im just not seeing it:skep:


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

DrNickels said:


> Sorry to hear your ride sucked ass and you almost died.
> 
> Turn his ass into the better business bureau and both of you write up a nice testimony of what you were promised, what you were given, what services were asked for and not rendered, and what you expected as fair compensation.
> 
> ...


 There was a waiver, my brother signed it for both of us since he was the one who dealt mostly with Joe..So I dont know what it said. My wife is the one who is the most upset about the trip. Especially during it, she was really worried, and begged us to end it early, or we probably would have finished it...Preganant women, hormones, emotions, you dont mess with that....So she really wanted us to follow something along those lines. We have several lawyers in the family as well. 
The point is, if your gonna advertise a trip like this, and have people doing these routes you've set up, you really have some sort of responsibility to those people to at least have correct directions..I really hope he fixes this..That was my main hope with this post is to motivate him to actually fix these problems that have been occuring for years..Hopefully we'll hear something from him saying that he will, so that people will want to do it in the future.


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## Bull_D (Apr 9, 2008)

verve.....what can i say....you are such a man. write another post when you have been with someone who has had a "freak" life threatening injury. such as a friend who was a VERY good rider, pooching 100 feet from the car and going over the bars....ending with the same injury as chris reeve. his girl revived him twice before emt arrived. don't be an azzhat.
it is pretty simple really. when you pay an outfitter, they have some responsibilities. if you rent my house to come skiing in the winter and the heat goes out, i better get it fixed. don't think your response would be.....well you dumbsh*t, you should bring your own sub zero sleeping bag. reasonable suggestions on how to fix the problem, it seems.


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## ScottN (Jan 12, 2004)

*I think I found the source of your problem...*



dosboy said:


> 1- My wife was 7.5 months pregnant, I wanted to know if she went into premature labor, or some other emergency...
> Hope that clarifies things a bit....:thumbsup:


Well, there's your problem right there. You left your nearly-end-of-term pregnant wife home while you abused yourself in the backcountry far from the reaches of cell phones and other communication. It's like asking for the trip to be cursed. Bad juju dude.

SN


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

Sorry dosboy, gotta call you out. First off, its too bad your trip wasnt the vacation you had hoped for however, you contacted me mutiple times about my hut trip experiences and I remember specifically telling you to have a properly calibrated cyclometer, that all directions are milages because there is really nothing else to go by. Doesnt sound like you heeded this warning. This trip is fairly burly in the fact that you are pretty far out in the middle of nowhere and anything can and will go wrong. Weather? Unpredictable. Getting lost? Very likely. Mechanicals? Plenty of them. Water? Can become a serious issue if you are not careful. In the "bible" on the site which you should have read well if not printed out says exactly that. This trip is not for everyone and I think Joe prides himself on it being an adventure for all who dare attempt it. Joe is a stand up guy and does not run a tour company that pampers you at night w/ buffet dinners and massages. He supplies bunks, canned food and water for your ride and a basic route. Both of my experiences with San Juan Huts have been fantastic and Joe was a great guy to spend some time with. Just for the record, our group leaves on wednesday for our 3rd trip on the Durango to Moab route. By the way, I will take credit for some of those shitty directions, as we documented some alternate routes of our own and passed them along to Joe. Here is a link to my blog of last years trip... http://forums.mtbr.com/blog.php?do=showentry&e=1586


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Sounds like a great ride.

...endeavored upon by a couple of people totally unprepared to leave the safety of the city.

You know, at some point in their lives, everyone has gotten themselves in lame situations, gotten pissy and whiney and seen their character shrink to unproud proportions. It's a valuable part of the human experience. What makes it valuable is, you muscle through it and have some good stories about things you overcame, that made you stronger. It's not valuable when you blame everyone else in sight and then maintain this, while bragging about your lack of responsibility for your own ineptitude to a room full of strangers.

You prepared for this all year, by buying a map, relying on an electronic gadget, and then somehow found yourself boned when there weren't people ready with satellite coordinates and "very detailed maps" to string you along through it? Amazing.

Perhaps for your next trip, you guys should plan a three week voyageur trip through the Boundary waters. Piece of cake!


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## clarkgriswald (Dec 19, 2003)

*You paid in full before getting maps?*



dosboy said:


> Let me ask you a question. You've allready paid for the trip..I did do some research...A guy named washedup said he had a good experience (even though he said they got lost a few times). After we recieved the crappy maps, it was too late..He doesnt give refunds.So your allready out over a grand..Would you be willing to walk away from all your money? Or would you buy as many maps as you could get ahold of, take every precaution you could(sat phone gps's) and give it a go? I see what your saying though, we just werent willing to walk away from our money...Without our precautions we would have been in serious trouble..


And you got one person to give you feedback and said they got lost?

Before I posted I did a search from Dogpile on San Juan Huts. They are many post that said they enjoyed the trip. But there were several who had trips just like yours.

So how much research did you really do?

Reputable companies have refund policies. I wouldn't get in the situation where I could not get a refund.


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

dosboy said:


> There was a waiver, my brother signed it for both of us since he was the one who dealt mostly with Joe..So I dont know what it said. My wife is the one who is the most upset about the trip. Especially during it, she was really worried, and begged us to end it early, or we probably would have finished it...Preganant women, hormones, emotions, you dont mess with that....So she really wanted us to follow something along those lines. We have several lawyers in the family as well.
> The point is, if your gonna advertise a trip like this, and have people doing these routes you've set up, you really have some sort of responsibility to those people to at least have correct directions..I really hope he fixes this..That was my main hope with this post is to motivate him to actually fix these problems that have been occuring for years..Hopefully we'll hear something from him saying that he will, so that people will want to do it in the future.


If you are inplying by saying you have "lawers in the family," that you will be taking Joe to court, I will gladly sit there in his defense. I mean come on, 6 bozos from washington, dc completed this trip and found their own way. The leveling of pride is a ***** and all, but for god sakes dont sue a man for it.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

This thread is another example of three sides to every story.

We have only heard one in this thread. Doubt will find the hut side.

I know many who have done this trip and were deeply satisfied. I can go ask them again what they thought about what you did with your ambitious option....but I expect the answer of you went to the fringe and screwed up.

You pay for the huts and facilities..not on the route. You chose an alternate and challenging route then fukked it up. It really doesn't matter at this point that you paid money. You deviated from the default plans it seems.--perhaps due to your cocky attitude that makes you post your remorse here.

Why do you continue to defend this?



ScottN said:


> Well, there's your problem right there. You left your nearly-end-of-term pregnant wife home while you abused yourself in the backcountry far from the reaches of cell phones and other communication. It's like asking for the trip to be cursed. Bad juju dude.
> 
> SN


That is a big factor....gosh! Yikes! I would worry more about things at home too...and hope those are ok now.



Impy said:


> How was your hut trip experience?


Nice rhetoric. What do you expect as an answer? What do you want as a valid answer in your mind?


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

dosboy said:


> Let me ask you a question. You've allready paid for the trip..I did do some research...A guy named washedup said he had a good experience (even though he said they got lost a few times). After we recieved the crappy maps, it was too late..He doesnt give refunds.So your allready out over a grand..Would you be willing to walk away from all your money? Or would you buy as many maps as you could get ahold of, take every precaution you could(sat phone gps's) and give it a go? I see what your saying though, we just werent willing to walk away from our money...Without our precautions we would have been in serious trouble..


We got lost scoping out another single track that we found on the lat 40 map (not one Joe told us of) which turned out to longer be a trail. It was our choice not to follow directions and paid the price.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Hotblack, Liderman- Your responses make no logical sence at all. PLease re-read my posts and "think" before you reply. I couldnt have been more clear about wrong directions, and other things that have nothing at all to do with 2 city folk unprepared to enter the wild. :skep: You two sound like tards BTW......


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

Each night in the huts we read the log books and you can tell as the week goes along how this trip takes a toll on people mentally. The last 2 days the books are mostly negative talking about crap food and bad directions. I see this as "I cant wait to get back to the safety of my home in the burbs where I can play video games and watch mind numbing tv." Maybe its the coyotes howling all night on that 5th night in the valley that drives them to madness.


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

*You were warned...*

-from a old pm...

Re: san juan huts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dosboy
hey- so im going in a week and a half to do the durango to moab version with my brother. I know ive pm'd you before about the single track routes, Its been a while though and I thought you said you were doing it around the same time as me this year. Just wondering how finding the single track was and how the ride went. I got the maps from Joe and they really suck. WOndering where you bought your maps and If they were enought to find the single track alternatives. I wish that joe was more pro active about providing info for these single track alternatives, since they are the whole reason Im doing this. Are there instructions in the cabins or anything about the routes? Thanks

Joe is a stand up guy. I belive the reason he is not more proactive is the potential to get in over your head, especially day 1. Upon last report, there is still snow on the route we took last year. Buy latitude 40 maps online and find your own routes. Joe does post alternate routes in the huts, but you still need the maps. Maps are a must, even for standard route so buy them now. People are often critical of Joe for his directions and such, but keep in mind this is not your typical bike tour and I think he prides himself on that. You are in the the back country more or less and need to navigate on your own. A GPS is a great idea and properly calibrated computers a must as much of the directions are by milages. Peep my blog and you will get trail names we took, which are all on the lat 40 maps, or you can find your own routes. Either way, the single track steps this trip up a notch and you are sure to have an adventure.
washedup is online now


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

DrNickels said:


> Sorry to hear your ride sucked ass and you almost died.
> 
> Turn his ass into the better business bureau and both of you write up a nice testimony of what you were promised, what you were given, what services were asked for and not rendered, and what you expected as fair compensation.
> 
> ...


Wow.

Just (jeezusfugginchristareyouforreal?) Wow.

What a world.

Unsubscribing now...


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

mikesee said:


> Wow.
> 
> Just (jeezusfugginchristareyouforreal?) Wow.
> 
> ...


 Thank God


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

clarkgriswald said:


> And you got one person to give you feedback and said they got lost?
> 
> Before I posted I did a search from Dogpile on San Juan Huts. They are many post that said they enjoyed the trip. But there were several who had trips just like yours.
> 
> ...


 Your right, lesson learned..


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

washedup said:


> -from a old pm...
> 
> Re: san juan huts
> Quote:
> ...


 I dont know what your trying to prove by posting this. I did appreciate your advice and on your suggestion bought the lat 40 maps that saved our buts many, many times. I know your trying to stick up for this Joe dude for some reason and thats respectable. You have to admit though, its a pretty poor setup as far as the trails and descriptions are. Even doing all the single track options it only makes up max 20% of the ride. The majority of it is on boring dirt roads with no signs on more than 90% of them...Once again thanks for your help about the maps,and I hope you have a good time in september


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

I guess I am just a bit bummed because I actually enjoy doing this trip and dealing with Joe and I would hate for someone to ruin the experience for me and others because they didnt enjoy their vacation. It would seem to me that a) it wasnt what you expected, b) you had a lot of other things occupying your mind, and c) that you can suck up the several hundred bucks. I know those jones bikes arent cheap. 

And in posting that I just wanted to show you that you were told what you were in for, especially when it comes to the alternate routes and basic navigation on the trip as a whole. It doesnt sound like your trip was boring be it on dirt roads or single track.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

washedup said:


> .
> 
> And in posting that I just wanted to show you that you were told what you were in for, especially when it comes to the alternate routes and basic navigation on the trip as a whole. It doesnt sound like your trip was boring be it on dirt roads or single track.


 Boring it was not.. It could have been a really good trip. That's what im trying to say. If Joe would just get his act together and fix soem crap it would be less dangerous. Im just trying to let people know that this trip has got some major problems in it currently. It seems to me that Joe needs some motivation to fix these things since the problems havent been fixed and people have befor over a year.
Also ;just because I own a Jones doesnt mean I'm rich, I just graduated college and am a Nurse. Regardless of wht bike I own, I shouldnt have to "absorbe" a couple hundred dollars that Im rightfully entitled too.... I hope you can see where Im coming from, and what im trying to accomplish here...

One more Beautiful view that alone made the trip worthwhile:thumbsup:


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

dosboy said:


> You have to admit though, its a pretty poor setup as far as the trails and descriptions are.


No, no one has to admit that. Because that's exactly the point of that trip.

You missed the point washedup tried to make _before_ you embarked, you missed the point _while you were on the ride_, and you continue to miss the point with every post you make, _after_ the fact. It is an ADVENTURE trip. It is not a hand-holding tour through a sanitized amusement park, complete with nightwatchmen in bunny suits, looking out for your best interest. It is also in no way advertised as such.

You bought a GPS unit without bothering to get any coordinates? Then expect everywhere you go, there to be someone with coordinates so you don't get lost?

You bought a Satellite phone, used it for directions, and tried to make someone else pay for your poor planning and navigation skills?

When you reserve a hotel room, or a cabin, or any occupiable space, you pay for it whether you sleep in it, stand out front of it, or don't show up at all, because someone else who would use it is being turned away from it on your behalf. You reserved it, you pay for it.

Yeah, I'm sure in your mind, those not pitying your pitiful self look the tard.

Not a boy scout, were ya...


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## scorpionwoman (Jul 7, 2006)

Hmm, interesting thread, this.

OP, sorry about your scary experience. It would seem you did not have a full understanding of what you were getting into. I've not looked up info on this trip, but if the owner of the business leads his customers to expect to be able to find their way from his directions, then there is definitely fault there (especially if people have been telling him for a while now about errors in the directions). Heck, even if the trip is described as an adventure which requires navigation skills, with written directions as an aid, there is still a lack of responsibility in allowing there to be errors which may lead his customers astray.

I find it strange that there are responses that fault you for bringing your fall-back system, then accuse you of getting in over your head. You are obviously of the be-prepared variety, which is never a bad thing.

I for one always welcome feedback (positive and negative) on trips and trails. It is good to know the *kind* of trip this is, especially if it is not accurately represented in the owner's information. It's just that it would be nice to get the information without all the ranting and finger-pointing. Not that those things are not appropriate initial responses, just that they are likely to invoke more ranting and finger-pointing. (Besides, I'm not a fan of the post-your-business-grievances-on-the-forum approach. Blech.)

Anyway, thanks for the helpful information and the pictures taken on the trip.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

scorpionwoman said:


> I for one always welcome feedback (positive and negative) on trips and trails. It is good to know the *kind* of trip this is, especially if it is not accurately represented in the owner's information. It's just that it would be nice to get the information without all the ranting and finger-pointing. Not that those things are not appropriate initial responses, just that they are likely to invoke more ranting and finger-pointing. (Besides, I'm not a fan of the post-your-business-grievances-on-the-forum approach. Blech.)


 Scorpionwoman- Thanks for your level headed response. Women can be so good at that. Your right, I could have mellowed down my OP, which obviously attracted some people who how do you say, like to stir the water a bit..I feel the same way about feedback on trips, its nice to have information, which I think is the reason for this nifty website.



scorpionwoman said:


> I find it strange that there are responses that fault you for bringing your fall-back system, then accuse you of getting in over your head. You are obviously of the be-prepared variety, which is never a bad thing.


 I find it strange as well. Be prepared is the scout moto, and thats exactly what we were trying to do. I just dont get the continual jives about having a sat phone when you have a pregnant wife at home



scorpionwoman said:


> Hmm, interested thread, this.
> 
> I've not looked up info on this trip, but if the owner of the business leads his customers to expect to be able to find their way from his directions, then there is definitely fault there (especially if people have been telling him for a while now about errors in the directions). Heck, even if the trip is described as an adventure which requires navigation skills, with written directions as an aid, there is still a lack of responsibility there.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Having read the entire post -- and not being familiar with anyone involved -- the ONLY problem I can see with the tour operator is not correcting a known flaw in the directions. That's an issue.

Otherwise, and I'll try to be as respectful as possible, stop whining. You ride a Jones and you're complaining about a $100 sat phone bill? Really? You make a vague inference to legal action against an ADVENTURE TOUR owner because you had a bad experience? Really?

Most importantly, you have a very pregnant wife who, by your own words, clearly doesn't want you to go on this "adventure" and you go anyway? Where are your priorities? Perhaps your wife has a bit more insight into your survival abilities than you do, which is why she didn't want you going.

Hey, I'm sorry you had a bad time. That sucks. But buying a GPS and sat phone doesn't make you an adventurer; dudes have been doing what you did for hundreds of years with no technology at all.

Respectfully,
d


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## Redmon (Jan 12, 2004)

Damn, this guy is taking alot of ****. Yes, it was an unsupported epic adventure but at the same time he was falling back on the knowledge that he and his riding companions would be able to finish the day off safely at a hut. I dont think its too much to ask for some gps coordinates. I dont think a refund is in order but it would be nice to hear of some kind of improvements to the way directions are handled. Of course its their business to run how they deem fit


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Blatant
Otherwise said:


> Way to go on reading the entire post..Im glad you can do that..Good job..However, I dont think you know the meaning of some words in the english language. First and foremost this word you use twice, "respectfully". Doesnt really fit in with your message man..
> And saying that I dont know where my priorities are because I went on a trip with a pregnant wife, what an assinine assumption..Your a prick. Plain and simple..Now get on ...yip


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

I know enough English to be able to spell the contraction of "you" and "are" as "you're." Nice try, though.

Based on other posters, I was being very respectful, and didn't need to call you a prick to make my point. You're the one using your wife as a crutch, I merely called you on it. She's clearly smarter than you are, based on my limited knowledge in this thread.

Again, sorry you had a bad time on your vacation. But, you learned something, right?
d


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## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

lidarman said:


> Hilarious.
> 
> What happened to the old days when there were no GPSes?-- you didn't blame someone else on your lack of navigation skills.
> 
> This sounds more of an example of some people getting in way over their head.


Yeah - pretty much what I was thinking.

Let's see - a whole 5 minutes of inter-netting found me this..

Bolam Pass Hut -
37°43'10.55"N
107°54'28.73"W

Black Mesa Hut
37°48'46.38"N
108°10'47.63"W

etc... etc.

This trip is a self supported journey. You were underprepared.

Suck it up and move on.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

If you can afford a Jones, you can afford a guide.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Most of us here have been lost or missed a route turn out in the backcountry at some time or another.

The difference is most of us don't blame others for our own mistakes. 

You chose to embark on a trip unprepared, and when things went sour you attempt to place the blame on anyone else except where it belongs.

Thousands of people ride that trail and other trails without GPS and satellite phones, and do just fine. Lewis and Clark travelled across the continent without even a map, and you cannot find a hut without hi-tech electronic help?

Either suck it up and admit that you made the mistakes, or stay home and out of the woods. The only 'apology' due here is the one from you to Joe and the contributors here for immature whining.


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

Can you post a picture of the huts? 

Just curious.


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## Rockfish Dave (Dec 27, 2006)

Wow, what a dog pile!

Uncalled for IMO! 

The guy just shared his expirience for others to take or discard... instead you're trying to tell him it's his fault b/c: he was prepared for emergency w/a sat phone, GPS or too wealthy to have this happen to him b/c he has a Ti bike... 

It is my opinion that if you are paying for lodeging the outfitter/proprieter should attempt to accomodate the patron. Taking into account that fatigue and lack of expirience in land navigation will be factors for many paying customers. It would not be too difficult to offer directions in multiple formats: GPS waypoints, tracks, Topos, and written, to ensure that everything that can be done to ensure the customers safety and enjoyment is provided. 

Granted you cannot remove the human factor, but from what I have read in this post and two others the inability to locate the huts is fairly common and has been one of the few down sides to the reviews.

Just my .02 (if even that)


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

Redmon said:


> Damn, this guy is taking alot of ****. Yes, it was an unsupported epic adventure but at the same time he was falling back on the knowledge that he and his riding companions would be able to finish the day off safely at a hut. I dont think its too much to ask for some gps coordinates. I dont think a refund is in order but it would be nice to hear of some kind of improvements to the way directions are handled. Of course its their business to run how they deem fit


Since people are making such a big deal out of GPS coordinates I will address this issue as well. Our first time on the trip, our GPS guy Bruce, took the time to plug the huts into the GPS before we started. No, he wasnt spoonfed them from anyone at SJ Huts, he got a general point from comparing maps. He had no issue finding the first hut, nor did our guy bob last year who did his first ride in the wilderness, both solo on standard route. The first year those who took the alt route had issue b/c we were so spent. We looked at maps ofen and compared them to the gps and also kept a close eye on milages from our cyclocomputers which are vital on the trip and stated very clearly.


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## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

Sort of what I was thinking too - must be a grumpy old guy mentality, you know - where one knows what they are getting into and adequately prepares for it...



lidarman said:


> This sounds more of an example of some people getting in way over their head.


Nevermind the what? $5 Colorado SAR card that covers that $10k extraction cost?


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## chickenlegs (Feb 2, 2004)

forkboy said:


> Let's see - a whole 5 minutes of inter-netting found me this..
> 
> Bolam Pass Hut -
> 37°43'10.55"N
> ...


Dosboy, did you respond to this yet? Five minutes spent on the internet before the trip would have given you all the GPS coordinates?


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## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

Now I know you're nuts!!!


dosboy said:


> My wife was 7.5 months pregnant, I wanted to know if she went into premature labor, or some other emergency.


And:



dosnotboy said:


> My wife is the one who is the most upset about the trip. Especially during it, she was really worried, and begged us to end it early, or we probably would have finished it....


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## pacman (Jan 16, 2004)

dosboy - Did you keep the GPS files and make waypoints for the huts? At least the next adventurers would have a head start.

You weren't prepared enough. A Spot Satellite Messenger would have been good. Even if Joe can't understand GPS coordinates he might have been able to see your position on a map.


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## Roswell52 (Mar 25, 2008)

lidarman said:


> This thread is another example of three sides to every story.


Is it just me, or is this one painful thread to read all the way though?...:skep:

For once, I gotta agree with ole "_lob-in-a-hand-grenade_" Lidarman.

His version, my version, and the truth. Unless I missed it, everyone has posted their two cents worth except Joe the Hut Guy. He is probably holed up in a hut with his bong and some old directions laughing his ass off.

One thing I've learned on this site is that if you post a rant, you better get ready to take some incoming.

IMHO, My Eagle Scout preparedness recommendations are: (yes i was too!  )
-never pay up front when there is a no refund policy
-never go back country without "_good_" directions & competent compass guy
-never depend on anything _battery powered_ to save your life
-never go out of town in the 3rd trimester
-never post a rant on MTBR and expect to get any sympathy

Best of luck. I hope things go better next time.

I feel much better now...:thumbsup:


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## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

dosboy said:


> Thank God


You are an interesting fellow.

It's one thing to disagree with peers across the interwebs - but show a little, tiny bit of respect, and grasp the context and background of some of the folks posting here. I suspect Mr. Mike C. has forgotten more thousands of miles of trails than most of us will ever ride. I could go on and blow his horn for a good long time, or mention his fantastic ride reports and photos, but I'll let you research a little, and see if you perhaps come back with some better perspective. Losing Mike as an mtbr.com poster would really be bad.

Look, to be honest your defensive and snitty tone is not getting far - so perhaps join me at my dinner table for desert, where I often have healthy sized pieces of humble pie.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

glenzx said:


> You are an interesting fellow.
> 
> It's one thing to disagree with peers across the interwebs - but show a little, tiny bit of respect, and grasp the context and background of some of the folks posting here. I suspect Mr. Mike C. has forgotten more thousands of miles of trails than most of us will ever ride. I could go on and blow his horn for a good long time, or mention his fantastic ride reports and photos, but I'll let you research a little, and see if you perhaps come back with some better perspective. Losing Mike as an mtbr.com poster would really be bad.
> 
> Look, to be honest your defensive and snitty tone is not getting far - so perhaps join me at my dinner table for desert, where I often have healthy sized pieces of humble pie.


 I agree- Mike is quite the adventurer, has a vast knowledge about many topcs, has contributed more than almost anyone else, no excuse to be a total ass. his comments over the last year or two have gotten more and more obnoxious. So no research needed. i know all about him...Thanks though...


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Roswell52 said:


> -never post a rant on MTBR and expect to get any sympathy


One can post a successful rant on MTBR. The difference between a successful rant and the other 99% of the rants posted here, is that the successful rants are actually valid. This guy is angry and doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions (or inaction), like most of the rants I see here.

I love rant threads


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Roswell52 said:


> Is it just me, or is this one painful thread to read all the way though?...:skep:
> 
> For once, I gotta agree with ole "_lob-in-a-hand-grenade_" Lidarman.
> 
> ...


 Agreed 100%..I feel much better now too...And I was expecting some incoming fire.... Its good for the skin....This is my favorite part of the whole post though..."Unless I missed it, everyone has posted their two cents worth except Joe the Hut Guy. He is probably holed up in a hut with his bong and some old directions laughing his ass off."

The funniest mental picture flashed through my mind when I read this...

Would Love to hear from Joe, but doesnt look like its gonna happen. im just glad a few thousand people are aware of this, which of course was the purpose of this thread........


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## jrendrag (Nov 30, 2006)

Wow, just reading through the full posts here... I made a quick comment yesterday and was excited to read what others had to say this morning as I logged into my computer. Scorpionwoman, Rockfish Dave - good job on your posts!
As for many of the other post'ers, calm down... your too anxious to find fault with my bro. and I. We are both very accomplished riders and ride in many remote area's of Utah. Jeez, I did this epic on my flipp'in HT... and Dosboy on his full rigid many would say that alone is an accomplishment! I think it's safe to say we both had a good idea of what kind of terrain we would be riding in, Colorado is not that different than Utah. It's true we both were trying to be as prepaired as possible, hard to fault that, right? 
Dosboy, wanted to point out that you have to also account for SJH and the fact that they don't really provide any support for the trip. We both were under the assumption that this was a partially supported trip. When in reality, it really is fully self supported - so be warned. I think Joe and SJH's, has tried to make this a fun supported trip, but they failed in a few areas. Chalk that up to us or them?? Probably can find fault with both parties. However, one party does this for a living and prides itself on providing a quality epic cycling experience. The other party was expecting them to advise on all areas of possible concern - "They are the EXPERTS, Right?" 
We did not find this to be the case, it doesn't really matter at this point! Just want others to be aware the fully experience before they head out for the adventure or mis-adventure as I call it. 
The ultimate purpose of this post to is to educate others that may be going on this trip or considering going on this trip in the future. Here, what I wanted to point out... 
1 - Unlike Utah, Colorado doesn't believe in a lot of trail signs. Just be aware that your map may mention a particular trail, but you'll never quite know if the one you're taking is that particular trail. 
2 - If you want to use a GPS, try to get the coordinates from other adventures. SJH doesn't provide them or doesn't want to mess with them. 
3 - Don't believe the route estimates of 5 hrs. riding per day and approx. 30 miles per day. Everyone it seems gets turned around a few times on this trip. So, for your own sanity, plan on more like 8-10hrs riding per day and 30-50 miles per day - is that safe to say? I think all will agree.
4 - It's also safe to say that these trails are not maintained. So, just know that if you take any alternates you'll be doing a fair amount of "hike-a-bike". Not that I mind that, it's just nice to know before your head out. 
5 - Don't post your experience on MTBR forum to help other, too many of them feel that only they are accomplished enough rider and anyone that has a negative bit of advice must be a city slicker yuppie. Funny, I wonder how many of these other post'ers also live in a big city? I would guess many of them do, LOL!

Oh, BTW - I don't know if you all noticed, but I was riding a Niner Air 9 HT. Built it up myself... Probably worth 2 or 3K anyone what to make some comments about how rich I am??? Just because Dosboy saved all his pennies to own a nice Jones dosen't make him a wealthy. Who here hasn't owned a bike just because they loved it, no matter the price tag???


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## Roswell52 (Mar 25, 2008)

nachomc said:


> I love rant threads


+1. Me too. They are some of my favorites and always good for a few laughs.


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

It's been said before here. But read it again:

TECHNOLOGY IS NOT THE ANSWER HERE.

Me and friends have done both the San Juan Huts tour and Colorado Trail with nothing more than a cyclocomputer and directions, as hundreds of others do a year. Plenty of preparation and being confident with your preparation is the solution. If you want to do this trip (and I highly recommend you do) research and prepare. Do not go on the trip and expect to get bailed out by a GPS or sat phone. 

Someone asked for a picture of the huts...


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

wankers.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Well, I gotta say...*



longman said:


> proper preparation prevents piss poor performance people!


.. and let me preface this with I have not done one of these trips. I am good friends with Impy and Aosty who have. I know they are not dumbarsses, and I know they can read maps, and they know their way through the woods. Impy was (is?) one of those folks who has straped on a backpack and disappeared into the woods for a week for fun.

They got pretty lost. If it weren't for the group spreading out and searching, they would have missed a hut and spent the night dehydrated and huddled together for warmth.

From what I have read, the directions could be much better, and adding outright errors to the maps doesn't help. IMO, a good tour operator should be able to lay this out so you don't even need the GPSs (cause what if your GPS dies?), and then have GPS coordinates as additional helpful data, and included pics of the key points on the map so you know what exactly to look for. If I paid for an adventure tour, I would expect the operator to give me complete acurate information. I shouldn't have to do research to make sure the info he gave me is correct, although I probably would pour over as many maps and sat photos as I could to get an idea of what to look for.

That said, I'm still interested in doing a H2H sometime.


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## Raineman (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm amazed that y'all think everything should be handed to you. When you leave your doorstep, life becomes an adventure. Enjoy it. If you venture out on your own, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN! Don't expect someone else to bail you out. This ride is not at Disneyland. You should be very prepared before you go, and if you need help, hire a guide!
Whining about GPS coordinates and criticizing Joe for your own shortfalls is well, silly. You guys look pretty silly to me. Take a deep breath and realize you needed to do more prep, or have someone along who knows the trails. Stop blaming others and stop convincing yourselves of a fundamentally weak position. Think BIG, be BIG. Take responsibility.


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## Spartacus Rex (Dec 18, 2006)

*Give the guy a friggin break*

This is one of the problems with posting on these forums. Almost no matter what you post you will get flamed for some reason or another. It was so predictable how this thread escalated into a flame of the original post.

He got flamed for being prepared by bringing a emergency equipment (GPS/sat phone)? Are you kidding me? If he didnt bring one and got lost for a week then he would have gotten flamed as a noob for not being prepared. Yes, the tone of the thread could have been less finger pointing and more matter of fact, but if you read the thread again you clearly see that the posters tone changed by having to be defensive.

Even the "lawsuit" crap was actually posted by *someone else*. The bottom line is that they were prepared as best as anyone can be. They were able to ride over 200 miles and consecutive 10 hour days which is more than I can say for most of the morans that post here.

Who cares that the posters wife was pregnant? I love that strawman. What a way to steer the message. In actuality that was probably the perfect time to go on a trip. That was probably the last time he will get to adventure for quite some time. If we all wait for the "perfect moment" to take an adventure you will never leave home.

In regards to the Hut to Hut, I've heard more than a few complaints about horrible directions and lack of proper hut stocking/food. This post corroborates that. To make the claim that the OP was "expecting massages and gourmet meals" is totally out of line. The poster only claimed that he wished he had accurate directions and better maps. Sounds like a reasonable suggestion to Joe.

Now, on the other hand, I dont think that a refund is in order. To the OP: you pretty much got the adventure that most people get on a trip like that. Be satisfied that you made it out OK due to your perseverance and preparations. It is OK to post about lack of good maps, incorrect directions, or poor hut conditions but I think it is out of line to imply gross negligence on the part of the adventure company.

I for one, found the post useful up until the point where the poster had to defend himself against people that were not even there.


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## neverwalk (May 14, 2005)

Crikey.


A lot of finger pointing and whining here. Seems to me the fundamental issue is the directions. Also seems that this is a known issue, for anyone willing to spend 10 minutes reading blogs or posts. That seems like much of it could have been avoided by "Joe" updating a couple of pages. However, getting info from trail users, who have first hand knowledge of the route, and what it's like to navigate it, would be the best option, not from a guy driving a 4x4 up loaded with supplies. Things look different from a bike....Looks like some of that happened here, in that you did at least have some contact with other riders.


As for counting on GPS or a Sat phone, this is where outdoor technology/tools is going, nothing wrong with bringing it or using it. It is an "accepted Industry standard" just as filtration and now UV sterilization has taken over from iodine tablets as a way to get potable water. You should ALWAYS have a real compass, and maps, and the know how to use them, just in case. 
You should also know that dehydration, heat, altitude, and fatigue can all combine to impair your judgement, and your physical reserves.

It took me 2 minutes to find this, on the SJHS website.


GPS info from SJHS
Published August 21, 2007 Uncategorized 0 Comments

WARNING: Coordinates found online or from previous years may not be accurate. The huts are moved yearly due to forest service regulations so BE EXTRA CAREFUL!!!! Contact SJHS previous to your trip to find out trail conditions or any specific changes. Here are hut coordinates for the Durango to Moab route, these were acquired and sent in this 2007 season by one of our clients. To the best our knowledge they are correct, but it is wise to also use map and compass skills because you never know. If any one has Telluride-Moab coordinates please send them via email so we can check them and post.

Bolam Pass Hut – N 37* 43.176’ W107*54.479’

Black Mesa Hut – N 37*49.904’ W108*10.789’

Dry Creek Hut – N37*59.803’ W108*28.275’

Wedding Bell Hut – N38*09.591’ W108*51.420’

Top of Ketchem Up Trail – N38*18.238’ W108*52.567’

Paradox Hut –N38*22.754’ W108*56.096’

Geyser Hut – N38*29.226’ W109*12.462’

ATTENTION DURANGO TO MOAB ROUTE RIDERS: There is a bridge at Mill Creek which has been down all summer it is presently under construction. Only a few folks have mentioned the down bridge so it may be passable. However, we don’t know for sure what the situation is but are in the process of checking on the situation. Again call for updates prior to your trip.



Likewise, from looking at the website, it seems clear that it is a "hotel" service, NOT a "supported" trip. There is food, water shelter, and amenities at these huts, but THAT"S IT!! getting there is up to you. Other than the wrong directions, that left instead of right or vice versa, why slam the operator and say "Don't do this trip"? Just post that the directions are wrong, or confusing, and post the correct ones. It is an Adventure Trip. You chose not to continue. The huts where there, waiting for you, stocked with food and water and fuel you paid for. Lots of other riders do the trip, and find these same huts, right?

As for the 7 1/2 month thing, that's between you and your wife, but personally speaking, not the choice I would have made.


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## neverwalk (May 14, 2005)

Crikey.


A lot of finger pointing and whining here. Seems to me the fundamental issue is the directions. Also seems that this is a known issue, for anyone willing to spend 10 minutes reading blogs or posts. That seems like much of it could have been avoided by "Joe" updating a couple of pages. However, getting info from trail users, who have first hand knowledge of the route, and what it's like to navigate it, would be the best option, not from a guy driving a 4x4 up loaded with supplies. Things look different from a bike....Looks like some of that happened here, in that you did at least have some contact with other riders.


As for counting on GPS or a Sat phone, this is where outdoor technology/tools is going, nothing wrong with bringing it or using it. It is an "accepted Industry standard" just as filtration and now UV sterilization has taken over from iodine tablets as a way to get potable water. You should ALWAYS have a real compass, and maps, and the know how to use them, just in case.
You should also know that dehydration, heat, altitude, and fatigue can all combine to impair your judgement, and your physical reserves.

It took me 2 minutes to find this, on the SJHS website.


"GPS info from SJHS
Published August 21, 2007 Uncategorized 0 Comments

WARNING: Coordinates found online or from previous years may not be accurate. The huts are moved yearly due to forest service regulations so BE EXTRA CAREFUL!!!! Contact SJHS previous to your trip to find out trail conditions or any specific changes. Here are hut coordinates for the Durango to Moab route, these were acquired and sent in this 2007 season by one of our clients. To the best our knowledge they are correct, but it is wise to also use map and compass skills because you never know. If any one has Telluride-Moab coordinates please send them via email so we can check them and post.

Bolam Pass Hut – N 37* 43.176’ W107*54.479’

Black Mesa Hut – N 37*49.904’ W108*10.789’

Dry Creek Hut – N37*59.803’ W108*28.275’

Wedding Bell Hut – N38*09.591’ W108*51.420’

Top of Ketchem Up Trail – N38*18.238’ W108*52.567’

Paradox Hut –N38*22.754’ W108*56.096’

Geyser Hut – N38*29.226’ W109*12.462’

ATTENTION DURANGO TO MOAB ROUTE RIDERS: There is a bridge at Mill Creek which has been down all summer it is presently under construction. Only a few folks have mentioned the down bridge so it may be passable. However, we don’t know for sure what the situation is but are in the process of checking on the situation. Again call for updates prior to your trip."



Likewise, from looking at the website, it seems clear that it is a "hotel" service, NOT a "supported" trip. There is food, water shelter, and amenities at these huts, but THAT"S IT!! getting there is up to you. Other than the wrong directions, that left instead of right or vice versa, why slam the operator and say "Don't do this trip"? Just post that the directions are wrong, or confusing, and post the correct ones. It is an Adventure Trip. You chose not to continue. The huts where there, waiting for you, stocked with food and water and fuel you paid for. Lots of other riders do the trip, and find these same huts, right?

As for the 7 1/2 month thing, that's between you and your wife, but personally speaking, not the choice I would have made.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I've never done a hut to hut like what was described here, but I have done some day long adventures into the wilds of CT  on my mountain bike.

For my longer rides I have always brought maps and reviewed the route in detail before I left. I made mental (and written) notes about things I should see along the way. That way I could tick things off as I went reassuring myself that I was on the right trail and headed the correct direction (bluffs, peaks, lookouts etc). 

That said, if I were to do the trip described in this thread and paid for it, I would expect to get a complete set of directions that I could rely on. I would likely do an assessment of what I was givne and figure out if I felt further investigation and/or materials would be needed. I would also expect an experienced proprieter to tell me whether or not he felt that the materials he gave me was complete or needed augmentation. 

Yes, I understand that this is backcountry riding and everyone has to take responsibility for themselves, but I also feel that if you pay, the expectation would be that the person you are paying has more experience than you do and can therefore lend you their experience. 

Ignoring the ad hominem attacks, interesting thread. I'd love to do this trip, and appreciate the opportunity to learn from someone else's misery. 

John


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## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

Very interesting thread. Thanks for the headsup and information. 

I sometimes carry a sat phone and sometimes a VHF radio (when in repeater range) when ski-touring and biking in the backcountry. I've found it most useful when a trip may be late in finishing (eg due to getting weathered out and having to force bivouac). I can leave a message so my contacts don't worry and don't call SAR on me -> really don't want SAR or loved ones to worry when I'm fine and just waiting out storms.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Spartacus Rex said:


> This is one of the problems with posting on these forums. Almost no matter what you post you will get flamed for some reason or another. It was so predictable how this thread escalated into a flame of the original post.
> 
> He got flamed for being prepared by bringing a emergency equipment (GPS/sat phone)? Are you kidding me? If he didnt bring one and got lost for a week then he would have gotten flamed as a noob for not being prepared. Yes, the tone of the thread could have been less finger pointing and more matter of fact, but if you read the thread again you clearly see that the posters tone changed by having to be defensive.
> 
> ...


 Amen, Amen, Amen...:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 
This is the kind of trip you do BEFORE the wife has the first kid!!!


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

For what it is worth, I appreciate the info. If you're going to provide directions, make sure they are correct. I mean, isn't that the whole point of this business venture- to stock the huts and provide directions? Or is a wrong turn supposed to be part of the adventure? Maybe it is. Been thinking of doing this a few times so will have to learn from this and be over-prepared. 

Thanks for the pictures of the hut...very cool!


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

I have heard people say, "You should never rely on technology". Just your accurate cycloputer that runs on batteries as well.!!!!! WTF


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## TX_Shifter (Aug 14, 2007)

Just wondering, how much was this hut to hut trip?


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## Howeler (Sep 23, 2005)

Heck, some of my best epic rides have been the ones when we got lost! 

Remember the saying "What doesn't kill you - makes you stronger"

Nature isn't soft and it's unforgiving - embrace it. Time to read some John Muir books.


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## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

Fascinating thread, has a little bit of everything. 

I keep thinking about: How the OP modified the route and then gets upset when getting lost. How the OP bought a GPS unit but had no info to use it with and spent little time researching this before starting the trip. How the OP was unsuccessful and had a ruined trip, but how many others were successful and had a great trip. How the OP was expecting more services from SJHS than they apparently offered. How the OP let someone else sign a waiver for him without knowing its content. How the OP expects someone to pay for his phone use and unused reservations. How the OP comes to the conclusion that no one should do it because he had some problems, seemingly mostly of his own making. 

I did find the thread useful, though, if I ever wanted to do the hut to hut trip (which I really don't, have ridden a fair amount in these areas and have no desire to ride more dirt road than singletrack). I would definitely get well prepared map-wise, especially if I were planning alternate routes. 

I did take some time to review the SJHS site and they do seem to offer route finding, but not online so hard to say as to quality of the info or what the difference is between the basic and alternate routes. 

How much difference is there in hut location year to year?


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

mmm...wine in a box, PBR...not quite what I had imagined of being a "hut". 

All-in-all, you almost die, you get lost, ride 200 miles, almost die, get lost, ride, finally get home. Sounds like my kind of vacation. 

Thanks for the write up. Epic.


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## gitCHu ONe (Jul 18, 2008)

I didn't realize reading this thread was going to take over an hour, and the fact that everyone has basically said the same things over and over again and have had fits about spelling errors and whatnot. I feel jipped. I want my membership fee back.


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## Long Tooth (Aug 17, 2006)

Glad I read this. I had been entertaining the idea of doing this ride since I first saw it reviewed in Bike magazine many years ago.Not having correct detailed navigation maps and downloadable GPS routes and waypoints seem irresponsible.Too many other $1k to $2k costly "adventure" rides to put up with that crappy service.


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## jrendrag (Nov 30, 2006)

Ha ha, you guys are awesome! I can appreciate the last few threads... you're right, what doesn't kill you does make you stronger. I can honestly say that I'm riding stronger than ever and this misadventure has given me a new appreciation for my bodies ability to keep going in the face of exhaustion. That is one of the few good thing we took home from this trip. 
It is hard to fully know if you've prepared properly for a trip like this. Of course, they say "hind sight is 20/20" and looking back we can now see things that could have helped us in the preparation faze of this trip. It's easy for everyone to say, shame on you! you weren't prepared, etc, etc. But the fact of the matter is we thought we had taken every precaution and prepared fully. You all now have the luxury of finding fault with our preperation because you can see the full picture, as can we! So, learn from our mistakes... if you think you're properly prepared - you're not!
Hope that's worth something to those reading this post. The price for the SJH adventure is posted on their website, but I think it's like $750 per person.


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## sanjuanhuts (Mar 19, 2008)

*A Post from San Juan Hut Systems*

Ladies and Gentlemen....Mr. Joe Ryan has been out in the field, attending to trails and huts as he does. After speaking with Jason directly, we felt this issue had been addressed and resolved but this is not so, obviously. Joe is aware of the comments posted, those FOR and AGAINST his hut system.

But as for his response....well you are just going to have to wait a little longer. Tune in tomorrow for the next exciting post!

N. Campbell
Office Manager


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

Oh, the suspense is killing me! He better be out there filling those huts with bacon as we ship out tomorrow :thumbsup:


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## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

> Do you completely lack ANY sense of adventure and self-reliance, you litigious nincompoop? I laugh heartily at your lack of sack and wherewithal. May you ride paved, signed "trails" for the rest of your years.


Wow verve825, that's all I can really say. Adventure and self-reliance? Yes most certainly. Been on quite a few back packing trips as an Eagle Scout and plenty of back country hunting trips. I am quite comfortable in the outdoors, but thanks for your concerns about my sense of adventure and my self opinion of my abilities.

As for your idiotic jab at me, what makes me a "litigious nincompoop"? I read the op's posts and had heard his story so far. He paid for a service and was not provided with proper directions to complete his adventure. Normally this would just be a pain in the ass, no biggie, but a minor inconvenience in back country + fatigue can equal disaster and death really quickly. I'm a nincompoop for knowing my rights as a consumer? That's like saying because someone is educated they are a nincompoop. Please do yourself a favor and go to the doctor and get some of that piss and vinegar drained. While you are at it you might want to have a doctor try and remove that sand from your vagina before all the friction you have down there makes a glass pane.

As for the riding signed trails, I do ride those, mainly because that's what is legal and I don't ride off trail in public land.

I truly feel bad for the op in this case. He paid a large sum of money for a trip, got shitty service (in my opinion and opinions are like ass holes....), almost died, and is no being flamed for every reason in the book.

"Oh his wife is pregnant = he's an ******* who deserved what he got by leaving his pregnant wife home" <----- Please go $%^ yourself with this argument. As someone said this was probably his last "adventure" with his brother for at least a couple of years

"He brought a sat phone and rodes a jones bike so he must be a rich ******* who got what he deserved" <--- Please do us all a favor and hide your jealousy and contempt that someone has a better bike than you because quite frankly your lack of tact and respect of others makes me hope you get castrated by a rabid donkey. Show some $%^&ing compassion people! I've never seen such a lack of compassion for fellow cyclists until I cam to these boards. So you've ridden for more years than someone that gives you the right to treat someone as less than you? I hope for your sake you never have someone treat you this way.

I personally look forward to hearing from Joe himself and hear his side of things. I think myself would have been more proactive in looking up GPS coordinates and other posts before handing over cash to someone for a trip, but some people actually still believe in the old ways of the world. I pay you X amount of dollars for a service and you actually provide reliable service. Maybe some of you folks need to get out of the areas you live in because it sounds like a lot of you just think piss poor customer service and experience are the way things should be. If you ever own your own business you might take a different stance on customer service, I know I have.



> Honestly, I simply could not read any more of your diatribe after perching mine eyes upon this gem:
> "and rented a satellite phone to make sure we werent in any danger."
> If you want to ensure a lack of "danger" go to Disneyworld. If, if the other hand, you'd like experience nature- and, at least as important- your brain and self on their own, please avail yourself to exploring places where places don't necessarily have neon signage every 50 feet.
> I've done the same trip several times with no problems, and have enjoyed every minute.
> ...


So now it's if you wanted a lack of danger go to Disneyworld. Hmmm so I take it you're signing up for a trip to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan now then because that's where danger is and well these ***** bike adventure trips just aren't dangerous enough. I think you my friend are a few sandwiches short of a picnic. You can experience nature and adventure and do it responsibly and minimize the danger as much as you can. That's not being a ***** that's be a smart, rationale, non-testosterone bathed macho dick head. Are you the same type that refuses to wear a seat belt while in a car or don't wear a helmet while riding your motor cycle so I spend hours out of my day talking to your families about why you can't form a complete %^&ing sentence anymore because of a TBI? Go get your testosterone checked man because I think you are past the fill mark.


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## Coldaddy (Apr 9, 2006)

"I know how to read a GPS, I know how to read a map, we weren't way over our heads, were both Eagle scouts"

in utah, boys scouts are notorious for getting lost and dying in the backcountry...


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## croatiansensation (Feb 21, 2005)

Bikinfoolferlife said:


> Fascinating thread, has a little bit of everything.
> 
> I keep thinking about: How the OP modified the route and then gets upset when getting lost. How the OP bought a GPS unit but had no info to use it with and spent little time researching this before starting the trip. How the OP was unsuccessful and had a ruined trip, but how many others were successful and had a great trip. How the OP was expecting more services from SJHS than they apparently offered. How the OP let someone else sign a waiver for him without knowing its content. How the OP expects *someone to pay for his phone use *and unused reservations. How the OP comes to the conclusion that no one should do it because he had some problems, seemingly mostly of his own making.
> 
> ...


The OP expected the part I bolded? You must be reading a different thread than I . . . .

Honestly, for the price paid is it really too much to ask for a clear set of directions?


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## Rockfish Dave (Dec 27, 2006)

*+1*



DrNickels said:


> Wow verve825, that's all I can really say. Adventure and self-reliance? Yes most certainly. Been on quite a few back packing trips as an Eagle Scout and plenty of back country hunting trips. I am quite comfortable in the outdoors, but thanks for your concerns about my sense of adventure and my self opinion of my abilities.
> 
> snip, snip....
> 
> So now it's if you wanted a lack of danger go to Disneyworld. Hmmm so I take it you're signing up for a trip to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan now then because that's where danger is and well these ***** bike adventure trips just aren't dangerous enough. I think you my friend are a few sandwiches short of a picnic. You can experience nature and adventure and do it responsibly and minimize the danger as much as you can. That's not being a ***** that's be a smart, rationale, non-testosterone bathed macho dick head. Are you the same type that refuses to wear a seat belt while in a car or don't wear a helmet while riding your motor cycle so I spend hours out of my day talking to your families about why you can't form a complete %^&ing sentence anymore because of a TBI? Go get your testosterone checked man because I think you are past the fill mark.


Very well put. I am somewhat surprised by the responses myself...

You presented a very good counter argument(s)... Me? I don't know where to start...


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## AugustWest (May 3, 2007)

DrNickels said:


> because quite frankly your lack of tact and respect of others makes me hope you get castrated by a rabid donkey.
> 
> .


Isn't this statement a bit hypocritical in and of itself?

Isn't this statement worthless without pics?


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Coldaddy said:


> "I know how to read a GPS, I know how to read a map, we weren't way over our heads, were both Eagle scouts"
> 
> in utah, boys scouts are notorious for getting lost and dying in the backcountry...


 Ouch:nono: Thats just cold man:skep:


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## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

> "I know how to read a GPS, I know how to read a map, we weren't way over our heads, were both Eagle scouts"
> 
> in utah, boys scouts are notorious for getting lost and dying in the backcountry...


Eagle Scout > Boy Scout.

I know what you mean though about those handfuls of 10 and 11 year olds getting lost in the wilderness you know with all that huge grasp of the outdoors and high amounts of cognitive development...... (being sarcastic in case you can't tell).

Saying that a few boy scouts getting lost is indicative of all boy scouts is a bit like saying all cops are Barney Fife because a select few have shot themselves in the line of duty......

like this fella.....


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

San Juan huts is NOT a tour operator. They operate a series of Backcountry shelters for the public to rent. While they may provide maps, instructions, etc, route finding is the _users_ responsibility.

If a user is unsure of the route, or does not have excellent map and compass reading skills, then they should take the easiest route available or hire a guide. San Juan huts has a deserved reputation for being rustic and low service and having challenging route finding both winter and summer. There are plenty of hut systems such as 10th mountain that offer a less challenging experience. I know other people who have gotten lost getting into San Jua,and other huts systems but they didn't blame anyone else, they knew going into it that hut trips are a _primitive, backcountry_ experience.


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## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

croatiansensation said:


> The OP expected the part I bolded? You must be reading a different thread than I . . . .
> 
> Honestly, for the price paid is it really too much to ask for a clear set of directions?


Yes, he did, re-read the thread.

OP modified the route suggested, so who's responsible for that?


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Bikinfoolferlife said:


> Yes, he did, re-read the thread.
> 
> OP modified the route suggested, so who's responsible for that?


 The modified routes we took are not in question here...Its the LOCATION OF THE HUTS..I dont know how much clearer I need to be on this topic..The main problem was with finding the huts, not getting lost on alternatives...Geez


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

(((ommmletitgomanommm)))


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## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

dosboy said:


> The modified routes we took are not in question here...Its the LOCATION OF THE HUTS..I dont know how much clearer I need to be on this topic..The main problem was with finding the huts, not getting lost on alternatives...Geez


Fine, but can you provide some detailed examples rather than just the generalization?

I've been on routes where I've easily found stuff and found others totally mystified...


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Le tit gom an.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Long Tooth said:


> Glad I read this. I had been entertaining the idea of doing this ride since I first saw it reviewed in Bike magazine many years ago.Not having correct detailed navigation maps and downloadable GPS routes and waypoints seem irresponsible.Too many other $1k to $2k costly "adventure" rides to put up with that crappy service.


 I would definitely recommend doing something else.


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## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

Good lord, since when does GPS have anything to do with having an adventure? Never used one, probably never will. Again, give us a good example based on maps you put here, or that we might have out here, as to what specifically you had problems with. You just sound whinier and whinier each post now...

How many years have people been doing this who didn't rely on sat phones or gps? Is it just a problem for those who rely on gadgets or are people good with maps able to figure it out?


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Bikinfoolferlife said:


> Again, give us a good example based on maps you put here, or that we might have out here, as to what specifically you had problems with. You just sound whinier and whinier each post now...


 If I sound winier with each post, why do you keep asking me to post? Your a tool, you dont know what you want//Oh yeah to fight with some guy on the internet hiding behind your computer..What a "real man" you are...Hope this post makes you feel "tough"//Grrrr//

"How many years have people been doing this who didn't rely on sat phones or gps? Is it just a problem for those who rely on gadgets or are people good with maps able to figure it out?"

A map is worthless if none of the roads your riding have names to them. Ive allready given several "specific" examples of how the directions were dead WRONG which has been confirmed by other posters who have actually DONE the trip...
__________________


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## longman (May 9, 2007)

dosboy said:


> A map is worthless if none of the roads your riding have names to them.
> __________________


?

even when 'lost' you can look on the map at the last point you knew where you were, roughly follow the route you took, you did take notice right? take a look around for landmarks....big mountains, valleys, streams etc.find them on the map and triangulate where you are and now you are 'found' again, hey you can even work out which direction the hut is if it's marked on the map. I learnt that in cub scouts when I was around 8 or 9 years old. No street names, road signs, flashing lights or homing beacons required!


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

Exactly the kind of lame A$$ reponse I expected from someone who talks a lot, but probably has never done anything like this before in his life. It all sounds good in theory, but cover a dozen or so mt ranges on trails and dirt roads day after day, crossing literally 100's of streams and other unamed/marked landsights, and it might change your perspective a little...Time for you to come back about your story of being the first person to do the GDR solo, only traveling at night, with no map or gps, like a real mt biker would do...


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## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

_If I sound winier with each post, why do you keep asking me to post?
_
Because you whine so well.

_Your a tool, you dont know what you want//Oh yeah to fight with some guy on the internet hiding behind your computer..What a "real man" you are...Hope this post makes you feel "tough"//Grrrr//
_
I just want you to prove your point rather than just complain and hide behind the internet. How you jump to me wanting to fight or qualifying my manhood says more about you than me.

_ A map is worthless if none of the roads your riding have names to them. Ive allready given several "specific" examples of how the directions were dead WRONG which has been confirmed by other posters who have actually DONE the trip..._

So you were on roads that weren't on the map, or you were just unable to distinguish which ones you were on without a sign? I missed your specific examples, or at least the proof of your specific examples....but there we go all over again. I do remember others saying they found their way and are having problems with your post.


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## TX_Shifter (Aug 14, 2007)

Great to see that there are GPS coordinates posted here. I think I would enjoy doing a hut to hut trip and taking my GPS along the way and input the coordinates to each hut.

I admit that my GPS saved both my son (10 yrs old) and my a%% one time when we were at a national park when his bike had a mechanical failure and was not rideable. The GPS due to waypoints / tracking got me back to base camp using some short-cuts off the trail.


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## longman (May 9, 2007)

dosboy said:


> Exactly the kind of lame A$$ reponse I expected from someone who talks a lot, but probably has never done anything like this before in his life. It all sounds good in theory, but cover a dozen or so mt ranges on trails and dirt roads day after day, crossing literally 100's of streams and other unamed/marked landsights, and it might change your perspective a little...Time for you to come back about your story of being the first person to do the GDR solo, only traveling at night, with no map or gps, like a real mt biker would do...


oh dear, the true you is coming to the surface. Its good in theory AND in practice mate, maybe you should have practiced first before leaving your front yard, I read about poeple like you in the newspapers all the time.

don't post on here whining like a little b!tch about how you got lost because you're a stupid idiot, trying to blame the hut operator because you are 'THAT GUY', grow some balls you pusssy and accept the blame, grow up and take some responsibility for your actions. Did you expect sympathy from people on here? If I was going to go on an 'expensive' adventure I'd do some research first, not just expect my sat phone and GPS to bail me out because I ****ed up and got in over my head..
did you expect everyone to agree with you and help you put the operator out of business?...you say you want a partial refund, then no refund, you have lawyers in the family? WTF?

You're right on one thing...I've never done anything like this before in my life...GET LOST IN THE WOODS LIKE A FOOL that is

Have fun on you're next 'adventure'


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

longman said:


> If I was going to go on an 'expensive' adventure I'd do some research first, not just expect my sat phone and GPS to bail me out because I ****ed up and got in over my head..
> did you expect everyone to agree with you and help you put the operator out of business
> 
> You're right on one thing...I've never done anything like this before in my life...GET LOST IN THE WOODS LIKE A FOOL that is


 This is a pretty funny rant from some one who obviously doesnt realize that he's in the minority here. MOST people did agree with me saying the owner should shape up. You and a few other bitter cyclists that probably get out once a month because your to much of a wuss to stand up to your wifes are the only ones in agreement. Im sorry if your "not alowed" to do trips like this in your household, or if your wife wont "let you" get a nice bike like a jones, I see exactly why your givin me beef here..Your jealouse..And thats okay, its just funny to see it come to light in your own actions...And If you never have gotten lost in the woods, not even once, then you really are a shelter yuppie puss riding the 45 minute trails with all the rest of the yuppies 10 minutes out of town   good day to you sir!


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

This is great!


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Route finding and map reading/interpretation are skills and not everyone is good at it. Even with practice and experience. 

Let it go dosboy. This whole thread is a passion kill. Why post this rant (warning to future hut clients?) in the passion forum anyway?


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

*Lets back up a second*

Honestly dosboy, you have some decent points for where you're coming from. From what you were expecting (to have good directions, and the huts being exactly where they were listed, and having precise GPS locations) you were let down. You didn't get that easy to do tour. Sorry.

HOWEVER, I feel, and maybe some other posted here think that maybe your expectations here were wrong, perhaps even dangerous, and I'd hate to see more people going off like you did. Not saying you're wrong the way you did it, but my point is that people should not go on a trip the same way, but if you go about a trip like this you will have a great time. Would you agree?

Having read your blog and posts its seems you might have not prepared as much as you could have and expected the directions to be perfect. Also you then brought GPS's along as a back up, but no co-ordinates to navigate by. This is all fine for a more day-casual trip but not enough research and preparing for an extended backcountry trip. Many like myself have done this trip and more remote ones, almost everyone does a bit more preparing. Also, no offense I think your attitude going into it was bad (bringing a gun and popping off a few in the woods??? - yeah I read your blog).

My point here isn't to attack you. Its just to to say that yeah I can see why the way you did it, it would be a bad experience. However others can have a great experience by going into this trip with a different attitude. So maybe don't just say "San Juan Huts sucks" ya know?


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

bhsavery said:


> Also, no offense I think your attitude going into it was bad (bringing a gun and popping off a few in the woods??? - yeah I read your blog).
> 
> ?


 The gun was for self deffense, and they're pretty fun to shoot. Maybey not for everyone though..I dont see how carrying a gun promotes a bad attitude, but whatever.


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

rockman said:


> Route finding and map reading/interpretation are skills and not everyone is good at it. Even with practice and experience.
> 
> Let it go dosboy. This whole thread is a passion kill. Why post this rant (warning to future hut clients?) in the passion forum anyway?


 Letting it go--------:thumbsup: all right ....done


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## sanjuanhuts (Mar 19, 2008)

***


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## brado1 (Oct 5, 2004)

I like your side of the story. :thumbsup: 

Joe G.& Jason = Douche Bag and Brother of Douche Bag


Btw DosBoy you've wasted about 35min of my life - I want a refund bastard!


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## sanjuanhuts (Mar 19, 2008)

*San Juan Huts Response....A Little Easier to Read*

To all who are still interested&#8230;..

Jason and Joe Gardner from Sandy, Utah booked a trip on October 30, 2007 to ride the Durango to Moab Route on August 9, 2008. As with all customers that rode our two routes, 510 total, the group leader was mailed a set of maps, a hut key, and the following page so that each group or individual rider may properly plan and prepare for their trip:

DURANGO-TO-MOAB
INFORMATION PACKET

Your Snail-Mail info packet includes:

1. Hut Key
2. Route Maps for Both Routes

Your E-Mail info packet includes (in PDF format):

1. Bikers Bible 
2. Liability Waivers
3. Daily Route Description
4. Alternate Route Description (Some huts will contain detailed route descriptions 
at the hut site as trail availabilities change.)
5. Supplemental Map Information
6. Group Member Roster

If you do not have all of these items, please call us.

In addition, we need your liability waivers signed and returned to us as soon as possible.

Joe Ryan and the team at
San Juan Hut Systems 
P.O. Box 773
Ridgway, CO 81432
Telephone: (970) 626-3033
Fax: (970) 626-4212
E-mail: [email protected]

In addition to this information being mailed to Jason on May 5, 2008, we corresponded with him and his brother Joe via email 7 times between October 7, 2007 and May 8, 2008. San Juan Hut Systems spoke with Jason and Joe 5 or 6 times over the course of those 8 months regarding date changes and answering questions pertaining to the routes and the alternate single track available for our routes.

But now for the untold story&#8230;.

While Jason and Joe were taking the alternate route to the 1st hut, "The Colorado Trail" alternate to the Bolam Pass Hut, I received a satellite phone call from one of the two brothers. They were lost. During that days' ride, they were using the "Latitude 40" maps. It is important that you, the reader of this post, know they were using "Latitude 40" maps because of the following quote from one of Joe Gardner's not so pleasant emails:

"***You may also be interested to know some of the way we feel you could improve the experience for other riders:

Might I recommend that you invest in LAT 40 maps (or more detailed maps), with routes marked and alternate routes marked in maybe a different color. These maps should be specific for each trail. DO NOT issue a map with both Telluride and Durango routes marked. This is confusing and frustrating when you trying to figure things out. Also, a detailed written route description for each day would have done wonders for us. Perhaps even laminate this into a small book with days/routes tabs. If possible, GPS coordinates for each hut & key route points would be awesome. Let me also suggest that you take the time to better mark the huts from the main trail. In other words, have a sign or marker (maybe orange cone) next to the main route signaling riders that this small little off shoot is the way to the hut. Perhaps, mileage could also be included in the written descriptions from various waypoint." - quote for Joe Gardner's email sent 8/19/08

Joe, we do not purposely mark the close proximity to the huts with markers, especially bright orange highway traffic cones as you suggest, because in 21 years of operation we have had entire structures destroyed and have had over $100,000 in theft and vandalism. At times, SJHS has had to move huts mid season which makes GPS coordinate marks on maps that are pre-made months in advance incorrect and confusing. Communicating these changed GPS coordinates to clients can be a disaster in the making due to clients being out of town, state, or country sometimes weeks or months prior to their trip departure date. Daily mileage is included in the route description as riders travel hut to hut each day. Also, SJHS regularly finds in their huts and along trails any number of electronic devices such as cameras, cell phones, ipods, GPS devices, etc., etc. What happens if you lose or break your GPS or the battery dies? Despite this reasoning, coordinates from riders are easily found online.

What these two brothers from Sandy, Utah do not tell you is that they got lost using the" Latitude 40" maps! What they do not tell you is that we still provided support while they were on route via their satellite phone conversations! I attempted to get them back on route before dark and to the Bolam Pass Hut. The location where these two lost the trail is a difficult spot due to fatigue, oncoming darkness, and the effects of altitude "wackiness". The very next day, the two brothers contacted me again, using their satellite phone, trying to find the second hut. Once again, I guided them into the hut. I received one more call from Jason and Joe two days later, lost again, and I directed them to the Wedding Bell Hut.

We did not hear from Joe or Jason until the following email arrived on the 19th of August, 4 days after their trip would have been completed: (please try and make it through his spelling and grammatical errors which we have underlined)

"Hi Joe & Staff,
Just want to drop you a quick note and give you some feedback on our recent trip from Durango to Moab via the San Juan Hut System.  Perhapes, I should just start out by letting you know that my brother and I were forced to head home early from the Durango to Moab route. The reason for this change, was due to the lack of trail markings and poor quality of the maps we found it nearly impossible to find the huts each day and say consitantly on the designated routes. This frustration only compounded each day as we rode adding more and more miles to our legs. I would say on average we spend 1 - 3 hrs nightly looking for your huts. This was extremely upsetting after a long day in the saddle, not to mention being exhausted, which I'm sure didn't help with our patients in finding the route/huts. By the end of day 4 1/2, we had ridden a total of 210 miles each.  20 or so where from our start point of Molasse pass/Colorado Trail.  However, the other increased mileage was due to back tracking or route/hut finding efforts. Had we continued to Moab we may have exceeded 300 miles for the trip. This is a lot more mileage than we were lead to believe. As a guide company,( SJHS would like to reiterate that we are not a guide company) I feel it is your responsibility to clearly mark the way to your huts from the main trail! As we dropped in altitude, the heat was intesified and water was hard to come by. You can only carrier so much water on your bike/back, it's imperitive that you get the riders to the next hut with as few delays as possible. This became our main concern and the ultimate reason for aborting our trip mid week. We just didn't feel it was worth risking our lives to continue! ( Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My!!!!)
Because we were forced to end our ride early I feel it only fair that you issue us a partial refund for the days we were not using your facilities. That would be Wed, Thurs and Fri (August 13-15). We registered early last year, only paying $550 / ea. So, this works out to approx. $78.50 per night for 3 nights x 2 people = $471.42 to be refunded. I realize that this may be out of the normal to request this refund, but I feel very strongly about getting a refund. I feel it may potientially help motive positive changes on your end. I would find it hard to believe if we were the only ones having these problems. I'm just happy that we had a ride we could contact to pick us up half way and take us home."

"Please let me know how you propose to issue this refund and the time frame for receiving it. Thank you!"

Regards,

Jason & Joe Gardner

When reviewing the email it became apparent that these two brothers from Sandy, Utah did not have their written route descriptions. They were navigating solely with the use of the maps we sent them and the "Latitude 40" maps for the alternate routes. We phoned Jason after receiving his brother's email as he is the one who made the reservation, paid for it on his credit card, and provided his telephone number as the contact. After speaking with him, we confirmed that they had not used our 12 page daily route description, which is essential and complimentary to the maps we provide. Jason admitted on the phone at this time that he did in fact receive the checklist and confirmed that he had received his route description, along with 5 other attachments( Info Packet Checklist, Group Roster, Liability Waiver, Alternate Route Overview, and BLM/USFS/Latitude 40 Supplemental Map Information and Contact Numbers). Jason's response to this was, "Oh yeah, I got those. I guess I should have opened them. They would have been helpful" and then he chuckled. I congratulated Jason for doing as well as he did without having the route descriptions with him. Please note that during the three conversations I had with these two brothers from Sandy, Utah while they were on route, not once was it indicated they did not have the daily route description, nor did they question me about written route descriptions.

After speaking with Jason, I felt the issue was resolved until I received this second email from Joe Gardner on September 8, 2008:

"Joe- I didnt want to do this, but you left me no choice. I posted this an hour ago and allready a 100 people have looked at it. By the end of the week it will be a few thousand. PLease give us our refund that we politely requested for the last two huts so that I can tell these people that you did the right thing, and it wont look so bad for your business. You have to treat your customers with some respect Joe, in this day and age word of mouth is just to important. (Blackmail????)
The trip cost us $550.00 each..Thats $1,100. A refund for 2 huts a piece would be about $150.00 each..Please refund us the $300.00 dollars that you owe us and I will put on the blog that you did the right thing. Then the next time you stock your huts get some gps co-ordinates, add them to the instructions to be sent WITH THE MAPS (use lat 40's too those other ones sucked) and you should be back up on your feet. 
Mail the check to my brother at his office at 330 W 9000 S sandy Utah 84070...Thanks ---Joe Gardner"

Let me point out here that in the first request Joe Gardner made, he indicated he wanted a refund for three nights and here he is requesting two nights. Joe Gardner is confused.

San Juan Hut Systems provides as much information as is necessary, and some say too much information, to assist you in the completion of our routes. We provided a service and lived up to our commitments and responsibilities. It is not our business practice to send individuals into the backcountry without the navigational information,12 page daily route description and maps necessary to complete the hut system routes. We want our riders to experience an amazing ride and complete the hut system. Riding these 215 mile routes is a navigational challenge for riders that have never seen the terrain before and this is part of the adventure that they seek. A refund will not be issued to Jason and Joe Gardner as SJHS does not sacrum to blackmail. If those viewing this post would like to see how Jason and Joe Gardner's trip went, I invite you to view Joe Gardner's blog post at http://joemtbiker.blogspot.com, written after his refund request was made. I've been there and read what it had to say. Even his friend commented under the post: "That trip truly looks like it was a blast! I missed out!" Well here, let me share it with you now&#8230;.my favorite part of his blog entry is this:

"I really discovered on this trip how much of an "adventurer" I really am. I have for the longest time, dreamt of someday doing the Great Divide trail, or the Iditarod Invitational. No longer. I really don't care for the lifestyle..Id rather travel to a hotel, ride for 4-6 hours, come back and shower, followed by dinner at a restaurant, a movie, and sleeping next to the air conditioner..Yep I admit it, I'm a wuss. The trip was insanely beautiful, fun trails, etc...etc..."

The most recent communication we have had from Joe Gardner of Sandy, Utah was on Tuesday, September 9, at 3:51 PM and it was&#8230; "Are you gonna respond?" Well here is my response to Jason and Joe, and to those reading this post. Better yet, if you have any questions regarding our hut systems, give us a call. We would be happy to speak to anyone about the truly unique riding experience available through San Juan Hut Systems.

If you want to read Joe Gardners' post in it's' entirety&#8230;here you go:
From Joe Gardner's blog dated Wednesday, August 20, 2008:

My brother and I had so many experiences on our San Juan Huts trip that its really been hard to put the trip into words. I've spent the last week since we've been home trying to organize my thoughts together to share. One thought I've had is that I take for granted my relationship with my older brother Jason. He not only introduced me to the sport 9 years ago, but he's been my best riding partner the entire time. (sorry Scotty and Mike. I think its rare that you can spend an entire week with someone and not have a single argument. Especially with all of the many hours being lost, sometimes without food and water for considerable amounts of time. It really was amazing to share all of the sights and sweet single track, experiences and exhaustion with my best friend. Another was the unexpected favorite memories. If you would have told me before the trip that my favorite experience would be a double bacon cheeseburger and ice cold coke on day 3 in the middle of nowhere at a town with one building in it, I probably would have laughed. But that really was the best damn cheeseburger and coke I've ever eaten. The shower on day 3 was absolutely amazing. We figured out a way to rig up a solar shower and man was it an amazing feeling to be somewhat clean after washing off a cumulative 25 hours of sweat and dirt... Argh just thinking about how dirty I felt......And the most amazing feeling in the world was actually finding the hut at the end of 10-12 hours in the saddle. It was such a jolt of excitement to "discover all of the basic essentials of life..Food, shelter, water...What a feeling. I really discovered on this trip how much of an "adventurer" I really am. I have for the longest time, dreamt of someday doing the Great Divide trail, or the Iditarod Invitational. No longer. I really don't care for the lifestyle..Id rather travel to a hotel, ride for 4-6 hours, come back and shower, followed by dinner at a restaurant, a movie, and sleeping next to the air conditioner..Yep I admit it, I'm a wuss. The trip was insanely beautiful, fun trails, etc...etc... I really hate feeling like a homeless person though. Washing my clothes in streams, 3 day old sweat caked in my hair...No thanks... I dug up a few more random pics of the trip. The night before we shoved off (we slept in a hotel) there were thunderstorms all night long. We started the next day on the Colorado trail, which if you don't know is amazing epic single track that goes all the way across the state. The trail was damp as a result, and I was trying to ride down a steep technical section. My front tire slid off a water divert log and I went down hard, hitting my head on a boulder. My brother came to help me up, but not without snapping a pic of hid injured sibling still on the ground..(wheres the love?)Funny how our trip almost ended in the first 3 hours of it. On day 4 we started to loose a lot of elevation, the high mountain scenery gave way to lower moabish like trails. Half way through our day we ran across a bunch of Colorado Slickrock and got some video riding down it. It was really fun to have so much variety on the types of trails we rode. Another really fun thing we did is my brother brought some bear spray/gun and we had a good time bustin a cap in a few trees. My brother rigged it up on his ergon to be able to quickly access it. Some times when I'd ride ahead a ways and stop for him to catch up, I wished I had one too. My final thought is how great a device a mountain bike is. We were able to access some of the remote places in the state of Colorado due to these contraptions. Covering a lot of ground on some gnarly trails. There is no way we would have been able to see these sights unless we were on a month long backpack trip. I love the mountains, and You can really cover some ground and scenery on a mountain bike.. Most importantly I want to thank my wife for letting me go on this trip. She is 8 months pregnant and really had a hard time getting along without me, emotionally and physically. She really is amazing to put up with all of the trips and adventures I go on. Also my In laws are amazing. They dropped and picked my brother and I up in Colorado. Thanks Guys!!!!


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## sherpaxc (Aug 12, 2005)

wow.


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## yater (Nov 3, 2006)

> "I really discovered on this trip how much of an "adventurer" I really am. I have for the longest time, dreamt of someday doing the Great Divide trail, or the Iditarod Invitational. No longer. I really don't care for the lifestyle..Id rather travel to a hotel, ride for 4-6 hours, come back and shower, followed by dinner at a restaurant, a movie, and sleeping next to the air conditioner..Yep I admit it, I'm a wuss.


HA!


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## wunderhorn (May 13, 2005)

Quote from the trip blog:

". . . followed by dinner at a restaurant, a movie, and sleeping next to the air conditioner..."

Help me out somebody, is this a euphemism for not getting any?

BTW, this thread is fun, I'd like to thank everyone who has participated.


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## brado1 (Oct 5, 2004)

I think we'll be seeing a Goodbye Passion thread from Dosboy really soon


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## Flo Rida (Jul 5, 2008)

This just shows how there is two sides to every story. If this was the "People's Court," I think they would side with San Juan Huts.

Dosboy you never mentioned the 12 page daily route description you guys neglected to bring :nono: 

I rule for the defendant.


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## croatiansensation (Feb 21, 2005)

Bikinfoolferlife said:


> Yes, he did, re-read the thread.
> 
> OP modified the route suggested, so who's responsible for that?


Doesn't sound like he did to me. . .



dosboy said:


> Yeah thats what we thought. We wanted some sort of compensation, but thought it only fair to pay for the food we ate at the 4 huts we did use...So we asked to be compensated for the last two huts that we didnt even use the food (in other words it didnt cost the owner anything because we never used them)...I thought it was a reasonable request..*We didnt even ask for compensation for the $100 dollar satellite phone bill w eracked up talking to him 4 different times.* He wouldnt have it..No way would he refund a cent. WHat a crappy way to run a business you say???? I couldnt agree more..:madmax:


As far as the modified route goes, that really doesn't sound like the part of the trip that gave the OP and his bro any problems . . .



Flo Rida said:


> This just shows how there is two sides to every story. If this was the "People's Court," I think they would side with San Juan Huts.
> 
> Dosboy you never mentioned the 12 page daily route description you guys neglected to bring :nono:
> 
> I rule for the defendant.


Agreed, it seems that somebody forgot a convenient detail during their whirlwind of a diatribe.

Joe (sanjuanhuts), so has the error in the directions that Aosty and Impy spoke about on the first page of this thread been corrected?


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## cruso414 (Aug 19, 2004)

*glad Joe got a chance to give his side of the story*

After this thread started yesterday, I called San Juan Huts because I am booking this same trip for next year. I told them I was a little concerned after reading doughboy's post. The office manager explained the whole thing to me and said that doughboy had more or less tried to blackmail them. He told them that he was posting his experience on a forum but wouldn't tell them where. Well, I told her where she needed to go to give their side of the story. It really pisses me off when someone attempts to ruin someone's livelyhood on the internet without giving the other party a chance to respond. 
Guess what doughboy, your blackmail isn't working as my party is booking our trip tomorrow for next year. The only thing your rant has accomplished is making you look like a moron, even if you do have a cool bike.

btw Brado, would you maybe be interested in joining us next september? we would love to have another to share in the driving to durango.


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

Darn...Joe seems rational and logical...no mention of bong water...


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## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

It was very nice to hear SJH's side of the story. I read through the entire post, and I am a little confused on what portion of the directions Joe had that is supposedly completely wrong? Is it in directions that were sent to him by the company or is something he personally found on the net? I understand totally why they move the huts and keep them secret, but is there anyway they could maybe install something to better protect the huts or someone to guard them? Just a thought because I know losing 100k in theft would not be a good time.

Trying to blackmail you SJH's online is not cool though. If you want to file a grievance there is a right way and a wrong way to do it.

Right way
- draft a document of your complaint and include every detail
- explain how you would like the problem solved
- if you are going to belittle a company don't do it while possible litigation may be going on because it will always come back to bite you in the ass
- Send a copy of the letter to the better business bureau, to the business in question, and keep one copy
- If you sign a waiver you better damn well read it first and foremost because I am sure SJH's waiver mentions that you need good backpacking skills and lists the requirements of the adventure course (until the owner posted I truly thought they were more like a guide company not just a basic rustic tent on various lands. This would be like *****ing at the trail builders of the Appalachian trail because the hiking shelters that were built are not up to snuff (if anyone has hiked much of the A trail you will understand what I mean)
- if you are going to trash a business online it better be your last resort

Wrong way
- black mail a business by threatening to commit libel on the internet about a business
- not contacting the business and explaining where you will be posting said information because that gives them no way to refute your claims


As for the owner of SJH's
- it was very nice to hear your side of things because it truly has changed my opinion of your business
- perhaps in the future you could make adventurers take some sort of crash course before they begin their adventure to be sure they can use basic orienteering skills, map reading, wilderness survival, etc. so there is minimal chance of something like this happening again


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## longman (May 9, 2007)

BUSTED!

Dosboy you win the prize for biggest douche of the year.
Oh and for fukc's sake, learn to spell, are you 12?


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## clarkgriswald (Dec 19, 2003)

*Well,*

didn't even bother to "OPEN" the detailed route instructions. What a massive dumb F*CK.

DOSBOY and brother of DOSBOY you guys are tools. STFU and hide in you're hole.

Joe of San Juan Huts, I apologize, you sound like a stand-up tour operator.


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## Spartacus Rex (Dec 18, 2006)

*This thread needs to be moved or locked*

First of all save your flames for someone else, because I am not defending DosBoy's method of handling his grievances with SJHS. In fact quite the opposite. I guess I am the only one that thinks SJHS rebuttal posts nearly as bad as dosboy posting his complaint. Using totally out of context cut n pastes does nothing to deny the OP's claims. Just because he stated that the "adventure wasnt for him" doesnt mean that SJHS's instructions and maps didn't totally suck. I find it a bit odd that SJHS claims the Lat40 maps are why he got lost. Ive used Lat40 maps and they were the probably the best maps ive ever used to navigate.

While you are all claiming victory for an "upstanding tour operator" you might want to read the reviews from people that have actually taken the trip:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUser...3-San_Juan_Hut_System-Telluride_Colorado.html

Even the reviews that highly rated the trip all said that the instructions were terrible and there were quite a few complaints regarding differences in what was promised for the trip vs. what was delivered.

Look, I am sure it is extrememly challenging running the kind of business that SJHS does, and my hat goes off to them for trying. All I know is that dosboy's complaint is common but the way it was handled is totally out of line.

now close this thread PLEASE


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## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

This says it all:



> _Jason admitted on the phone at this time that he did in fact receive the checklist and confirmed that he had received his route description.... Jason's response to this was, *"Oh yeah, I got those. I guess I should have opened them. They would have been helpful"* and then he chuckled. _


I'd say SJH folks have a libel case here against doughboy and brother.

No need to poke more holes in the rambling nonsense. The "user experience" posted up in these posts by Jason and [dos]Joe would not impact my decision to book or trip or not. FWIW The thoughtful response from the SJH folks would impact my decision - in a positive way.


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## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

Spartacus Rex said:


> now close this thread PLEASE


The voice of reason.

We've got Side A
We've got Side C

Somewhere inbetween lies the truth.


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## Don Despacio (Jan 13, 2004)

From SJHS: "At times, SJHS has had to move huts mid season which makes GPS coordinate marks on maps that are pre-made months in advance incorrect and confusing. Communicating these changed GPS coordinates to clients can be a disaster in the making due to clients being out of town, state, or country sometimes weeks or months prior to their trip departure date. "

Forgive me for being stupid, but if SJHS cannot communicate changed GPS coordinates to the customer, just how *will* SJHS communicate the changed location to the customer?


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## dosboy (Oct 29, 2006)

DrNickels said:


> Wrong way
> - black mail a business by threatening to commit libel on the internet about a business
> - not contacting the business and explaining where you will be posting said information because that gives them no way to refute your claims


 I emailed them myself when I posted this thread with a link to it...The SJHS even included it in there rant return..How dumb are you guys?? They simply took everything out of context and you guys ate it up..Your blown to and frow...To bad..And to dude who wants to book a trip, i look forward to reading your post of frustrations and let downs.
Blackmail? Far from..I simply told them to do the right thing, or I would expose there little pissy hut trips...Thats all. I hope this thread does get closed. I cant believe how many of you are retards...Evryone who agreed with me---- Im glad you can actually read information, translate it into a thought, and make an independent decision from that info (which btw was ove half the posters agreed the huts were ate fault...) Dosboy OUT...


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

holy guacamole. someone's card just got pulled. 
d


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## croatiansensation (Feb 21, 2005)

Don Despacio said:


> From SJHS: "At times, SJHS has had to move huts mid season which makes GPS coordinate marks on maps that are pre-made months in advance incorrect and confusing. Communicating these changed GPS coordinates to clients can be a disaster in the making due to clients being out of town, state, or country sometimes weeks or months prior to their trip departure date. "
> 
> Forgive me for being stupid, but if SJHS cannot communicate changed GPS coordinates to the customer, just how *will* SJHS communicate the changed location to the customer?


I wondered this myself . . . .


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## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

Don Despacio said:


> Forgive me for being stupid, but if SJHS cannot communicate changed GPS coordinates to the customer, just how *will* SJHS communicate the changed location to the customer?


 Perhaps with updated daily route descriptions?


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## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

dosboy said:


> I cant believe how many of you are retards...Evryone who agreed with me---- Im glad you can actually read information, translate it into a thought, and make an independent decision from that info (which btw was ove half the posters agreed the huts were ate fault...) Dosboy OUT...


Please do not mistake disagreement with some sort of mental deficiency... though said deficiency may explain some of the other issues made clear in posts like the gem quoted above.

_(goes to refill gas can)_


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## cruso414 (Aug 19, 2004)

*I'm guessing.....*



Don Despacio said:


> From SJHS: "At times, SJHS has had to move huts mid season which makes GPS coordinate marks on maps that are pre-made months in advance incorrect and confusing. Communicating these changed GPS coordinates to clients can be a disaster in the making due to clients being out of town, state, or country sometimes weeks or months prior to their trip departure date. "
> 
> Forgive me for being stupid, but if SJHS cannot communicate changed GPS coordinates to the customer, just how *will* SJHS communicate the changed location to the customer?


that is in the detailed route description that they failed to open. I think they mail the detailed descriptions just before the departure date, but I am only guessing. BTW, I would suggest that you hire a guide if you are depending solely on gps coordinates.


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## wunderhorn (May 13, 2005)

Don Despacio said:


> Forgive me for being stupid, but if SJHS cannot communicate changed GPS coordinates to the customer, just how *will* SJHS communicate the changed location to the customer?


Satellite phone?


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## clarkgriswald (Dec 19, 2003)

*Dosboy*

did you learn to call people retards as an Eagle scout?

Answer me this question: Did you read the detailed instructions prior to the adventure?

As you get more and more defensive and offensive, you'll loose what little support you had.


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## croatiansensation (Feb 21, 2005)

wunderhorn said:


> Satellite phone?




Honestly, it is kind of weird that the excuses for not being able to supply simple gps coordinates suddenly don't apply to directions that have to be mailed out. Not trying to defend the lunatic OP here just making a simple observation.


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## longman (May 9, 2007)

I love this thread! I want to stay away but it just keeps getting better and better!


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## PaintPeelinPbody (Feb 3, 2004)

SJHS: Completely understand why they move the huts...but...

What happens if someone goes out, and loses their "Written Route Description", in a thunderstorm, or an accident, or something along those lines. Essentially, if you lose those written directions, your out of luck, GPS, maps, compass or any other tool. 

I understand that the OP didn't open the most essential part of this direction, but the fact $750 bucks can go to waste, and even worse someone could get lost and die in the wilderness seems a bit too easy to depend on "Written Instructional Pamphlet" 

I think SJHS should supply GPS coordinates, maybe even multiple GPS waypoints to help find paths, roads, trails to the huts, maps with updated hut location, along with written route descriptions. Do the "Written Instructions" include all of this?

I guess I'm at a loss as to why my $750 is going towards some written instructions and a overpriced hotel in the woods. 

I think instead of saying "well you messed up and your not getting a refund" SJHs should look into improving its experience to allow for more fail-safes. This doesn't mean it's got to mark the huts, but it should understand that people can rely on multiple means of planning, routing and direction. Assuming that everyone will open, keep or not lose their only means of getting to a hut is a bit much. Everyone makes mistakes, but its where you make your mistakes that can kill you.


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## onbelaydave (May 10, 2006)

.........


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## onbelaydave (May 10, 2006)

*Awesome*


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Wow. First I thought you were pathetic and easily misguided. Then just gutless and spineless. Then sue/blame-happy and money-grubbing. Then a total a-hole with Borderline Personality Disorder, minimum.

But now that I've read throught the rest of this thread, I just feel sorry for you, cause you're just good ol fashioned, utterly f*cking clueless.

You should be ashamed and embarrased for most of the things you've admitted to in this thread.

...and if you were an Eagle Scout, I was the Queen of England.


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## longman (May 9, 2007)

HotBlack said:


> Wow. First I thought you were pathetic and easily misguided. Then just gutless and spineless. Then sue/blame-happy and money-grubbing. Then a total a-hole with Borderline Personality Disorder, minimum.
> 
> But now that I've read throught the rest of this thread, I just feel sorry for you, cause you're just good ol fashioned, utterly f*cking clueless.
> 
> ...


word


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## MrMountainHop (Oct 20, 2005)

*I've read the whole thing!*



longman said:


> I love this thread! I want to stay away but it just keeps getting better and better!


No kidding! Jeez, I had no idea I was such a tabloid junkie.

Dosboy, get real. It's clear you'd rather have booked a hotel-style trip. You didn't enjoy yourself out there and, instead of digging in and manning up, you bailed out and then decided SJHS should cover your error in judgment. Come on, dude - admit where you blew it and get over it.

Me, I'd be freakin' STOKED to have a bunch of stuff go wrong like that and STILL come out of it alive, having ridden through the most amazing terrain on earth. I sure as hell wouldn't have whined about it. Imagine the story you _could_ have told...

One last observation: maps are really, really great tools for locating yourself while crossing ranges, streams, creeks, etc. ESPECIALLY Lat 40 maps, drawn as they are from USGS 7.5 minute quadrangles. No batteries required, just a magnet and a brain. You oughtta know that, eagle scout.

Bill


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

PaintPeelinPbody said:


> SJHS: Completely understand why they move the huts...but...
> 
> What happens if someone goes out, and loses their "Written Route Description", in a thunderstorm, or an accident, or something along those lines. Essentially, if you lose those written directions, your out of luck, GPS, maps, compass or any other tool.
> 
> ...


No, no, How dare you post something so reasonable!! You shouldn't rely on paper directions, lat 40 maps, or even a GPS. You should have tatoo'd it to your arm. If you can't navigate by the sun, clouds, and stars than you are just asking for it. I mean really. Your not a man unless you can lick the dirt and tell which way to go.

There's just too many f88me cast outs that are running around here!...


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## Chapped (o) Hole (Nov 13, 2007)

onbelaydave, a man of so many words. Two posts and one word (awesome). Maybe you ought to stick to climbing POST WHORE!


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## Soya (Jun 22, 2007)

PaintPeelinPbody said:


> I guess I'm at a loss as to why my $750 is going towards some written instructions and a overpriced hotel in the woods.


This is what I was thinking through the entire thread.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

DrNickels said:


> It was very nice to hear SJH's side of the story. I read through the entire post, and I am a little confused on what portion of the directions Joe had that is supposedly completely wrong? Is it in directions that were sent to him by the company or is something he personally found on the net?


I am confused as well. Where we encountered the wrong direction was a specific turn on the 12 page written directions, which we eventually figured out. My impression was the the OP had these directions as well. If they were not following these directions, then I'm not sure how they even got as far as they did. We had both sets of maps, which we used a bit, but in reality it was the turn by turn directions that were the most essential.


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## Roswell52 (Mar 25, 2008)

bingemtbr said:


> Darn...Joe seems rational and logical...no mention of bong water...


 I humbly retract the good natured bong accusation....my apologies Joe...:thumbsup:

I have to agree, Joe seems like a pretty lucid and stand-up guy to me.

I was shocked at the quality of the huts too. I was expecting some 100 year old lean-to, and was quite surprised to see they look like a tiny little Hampton Inn on wheels. How in the world do you get those rigs that far into the back country. Have you ever considered franchising. Those things would sell like hot cakes down here in Georgia and Alabama.

I have always wanted to try biking in Utah, and the hut thing looks like fun. When we used to go on road trips, half of the fun was trying to figure out where in the hell we were. Trying to find the hut would be half of the fun too. And if we couldn't find it, my Eagle Scout background would include a sleeping bag, tent and food just in case.

By the why, does anyone know the GPS coordinates to my bong?


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## Ryan G. (Aug 13, 2004)

Heard the riding in Durango is good!


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## dream4est (May 21, 2003)

If one looks at the pix on page 1 of this thread, the riders are carrying enough gear weight to bikepack outdoors. They are overloaded for hut2hut travel. Those packs and bike bags should have contained a water filter/tabs, emergency shelter, a compass and DETAILED descriptions of the route. No experienced bikepacker would depart with less unless he/she was on a GUIDED tour.

Had I been on the hut2hut ride, the pix would show no weight on the bicycle and a 14 lb or so pack (and that pack would have had water tabs and detailed directions). But I have actually bikepacked before. You do not need the gear that dosboy was carrying to make it from hut to hut. The huts have food and shelter. The ride essentially becomes a day ride with a portable camper. So basically the OP and brother were carrying too much of the wrong gear IMO. It weighed them down to the point of being exhausted at the end of the day and unable to navigate to the shelter in a depleted condition. The story indicates that happened almost every evening.

The OP will have to re-evaluate his skillset in regards to bikepacking. Had I been out there with that much gear weight I would have just camped anywhere (I did the whole CT with about the same amount of gear on board as dosboy shows in his first pic. Maybe even less). A good sleeping kit can weigh as little as 2lbs. Water tablets weigh almost nothing. Written step-by-step directions weigh mere ounces as well.

When you depart on a self-guided tour, you take responsibility for the directions. The SJHS in NOT guided, so it is not for cyclists lacking the saavy and skill to navigate extreme backcountry. The OP should have just hired Hermosa Tours. Colorado/Utah mountain trails/roads are not easy local rides at the edge of town.

As far as wrong turns go, there is incorrect info in the CT guidebook. Big deal. A serious bikepacker overcomes that, and anything else problem-wise that occurs. Period. I did it. Plenty of others have had tougher situations on the CT or GDMBR or wherever. 

There is a saying I think of when things go really bad on a bikepacking outing and I make it out of it:

"Right now, I would eat Les Stroud's liver with some farva beans and a nice chianti."

If your mindset is not that strong, stay home. But do not whine and blackmail and embarrass yourself.




For SJHS, I applaud your decision to come here and defend yourself. Way to go, Joe.


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## turbodog72 (Jun 4, 2006)

Just a quick note to those that come along and read this thread...

I've done the san juan trip 3 times. 2x telluride and 1x durango.

The blame for not finding the huts is 100% on the 2 guys. I could tell after reading a few sentences that they did not have the route directions.

The huts are hidden a bit, and that's a GOOD thing. You want your bikes stolen in the middle of the night?

SJH could do a better job with GPS coordinates. Yes things change, but that also applies to route directions also.

We had zero problems finding any of the huts in 3 trips. In some places you can practically follow the bike tracks.

Would do it again...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

> As far as wrong turns go, there is incorrect info in the CT guidebook. Big deal. A serious bikepacker overcomes that


lol...or dies.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I realize I’m responding to a 10 year old thread, but:

If you think a GPS unit replaces collecting information, making a plan and verifying the validity of your plan, you are a fool. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> If you think a GPS unit replaces collecting information, making a plan and verifying the validity of your plan, you are a fool.


I agree.

But more and more it seems that just having a GPS track -- even if it hasn't been vetted, even if the holder of said track hasn't even opened it on their device -- constitutes "sufficient planning" these days.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

I'll chime in to this zombie threat, too. I've done Durango to Moab twice now. Once in 2010, once in 2016. I'll do it again in a few years with my kiddo, when she's old enough/has the endurance necessary for this ride.

In 2010, we thought the directions could have been a bit better. That said, we were a bunch of military guys who know how to plan, so we were all generally familiar with the route because we did our pre-mission planning. On day 2, we took a wrong turn and after a few miles, the air on the back of our necks was standing up because we felt we were not on the right path due to our pre-ride studying/preparation. On day 4, our group split up and we had probably the worst experience with the directions. Some of us went looking for the dinosaur tracks we read about (can't recall if that was in the daily route guide or the hut book), but either we didn't read the directions right or they were written wrong. We waster an hour or two searching, but no big deal; we tracked where we were and knew how to get back on the main route once we realized we weren't going to find any dino tracks. The second group took an early turn to the hut and went a bit further than they should have before doubling back. They arrived at the hut just as we were discussing heading out for a search, because we were pretty sure which turn they had taken... and we were right. We almost got suckered into it, too! On day 5, either we mis-read the directions or they weren't good, because we did have to hunt for the turn to the Catch'em up Trail, but we knew which way we needed to go and were (somewhat easily, actually) find the correct trail. Or at least a trail that took us where we needed to go.

It was a great trip and the bottom line to enjoying this ride is to do your pre-ride preparations, which include more than just putting miles on. Study the route, the terrain, the topography and any bailouts. It is remote out there; no cell service for most of the ride. Dream4est says he'd do this like a day ride, but I disagree. We took a bigger pack to carry the extra clothes, some foul weather gear and parts (tubes, CO2, and some extra stuff I don't carry when you can walk out of the woods) that we split up among the group. But nothing that would have worn us down to the extent the OP indicated.

Head out on a whim and you'll get in trouble, no matter how much tech you carry. Do your mission planning and you'll have a great ride; I won't say easy, because it is an arduous ride, but it's a helluva lot of fun! As one of the guys said on my first ride, "A lifetime's worth of experiences in just one week!"



Soya said:


> This is what I was thinking through the entire thread.


Let's see, 6 nights, food and lodging and the planning to link the route together and give you turn by turn directions and a basic map? And keeping the huts stocked. Definitely worth it. And still worth it 10 years later at about $900 for the week.


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## Gruitr1 (Mar 18, 2011)

Has anyone done one of these hut to hut trips lately. Looking at doing the Telluride to Moab trip in June 2019 with a group of 8 friends. We just got invited and started doing research. I've read mixed reviews.. This would be our(wife and I) first time mountain biking in CO. We are both very experienced mtn bikers and want to ride mostly all singletrack. Are these huts really connected with good, fun, technical singletrack? Trying to determine if this would be a good choice... 

Thanks


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Did my 2nd trip two years ago. There is some singletrack and plenty of Jeep/ATV roads. But even on the roads, the scenery is spectacular and the challenge is fun. These aren't "singletrack heaven" trips, but trekking "lite" trips, as well as push and challenge yourself adventures. 

Oh, and get the hell away from everything trips. On Durango to Moab, there are only a few spots where you can get a cell signal, so your are off the grid. No work emails or calls to intrude!

If you're from sea level, it'd be worth it to spend a few days before departing in CO to get a bit of acclimatization to the altitude.


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## Gruitr1 (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback! Yea, this sounds like a bunch of fun and I'm sure the vista views will be incredible but we want to spend more time on the really rugged, technical, scenic trails of CO and Moab area.. so much research to do to put together a week+ filled with hitting all the primo singletrack trails and finding accomodations..


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Gruitr1 said:


> Thanks for the feedback! Yea, this sounds like a bunch of fun and I'm sure the vista views will be incredible but we want to spend more time on the really rugged, technical, scenic trails of CO and Moab area.. so much research to do to put together a week+ filled with hitting all the primo singletrack trails and finding accomodations..


The Durango to Moab option would have more alpine singletrack options but not in June when you want to go unless it's a low snow year. In reality, early June high country rides could be tough most anywhere in CO in early June. Fingers crossed for that scenario anyway. The SW could use the snowpack.

Another option would be doing something like Hermosa Tours self-guided option of Molas Pass to Durango. All singletrack, all the time.  Kinda pricey but they shuttle your stuff and set up camp while you maximize your ride time.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Gruitr1 said:


> Thanks for the feedback! Yea, this sounds like a bunch of fun and I'm sure the vista views will be incredible but we want to spend more time on the really rugged, technical, scenic trails of CO and Moab area.. so much research to do to put together a week+ filled with hitting all the primo singletrack trails and finding accomodations..


Or look elsewhere for your multi-day singletrack adventure.

Have you looked at the BC Bike Race, for example?



rockman said:


> The Durango to Moab option would have more alpine singletrack options but not in June when you want to go unless it's a low snow year. In reality, early June high country rides could be tough most anywhere in CO in early June. Fingers crossed for that scenario anyway. The SW could use the snowpack.


Agree. Day one has great single track options. Day 2 has some as does day 3, but not as much. 4/5/6 are mostly jeep roads (some, though, don't even qualify for that term!). Day 5 has a little bit on Davis Mesa and possibly the most rugged bit of trail you'll ever ride, er, walk! Day 6 you're grateful for the roads... it's all climbing and the extra work to do tech singletrack would pretty much finish you!

Day 7 is the payoff. Big climb from the hut up to the top of Burro Pass and then down the Whole Enchilada to Moab. Doesn't get much more epic of a conclusion than that!


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