# clipless vs platforms



## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

What say you guys? I come from the road so I'm versed in clipless. I have no worries about forgetting to unclip out on the trails, it's more of a losing confidence in ability to get over something and want to put a foot down, can i unclip fast enough. As a kid, I rode a lot of bmx and i feel like sticking a leg out to make an aggressive turn was what I always did. Riding clipless on a mtb i find myself wanting to do that but obviously I can't. 

So I guess my real question is, what is the threshold for riding clipped in vs platforms. What type of riding do you think "definately clipless" vs. "definately platform"?


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## Nate3510 (May 21, 2009)

I ride to have fun and I choose to ride on flats. I believe that there is "scientific evidence" that clipless is a bit faster but since i dont race i really dont care. I did ride clipless for numerous years and like you I started on the road but about two years ago my wife bought me flats and 5-10's for Christmas and I never looked back just wish I would have switched sooner. For me it is so much more fun and confidence inspiring riding on flats I feel like im a kid again raising hell on my bmx bike. Several people I have talked too that also switched to flats has said the same thing, it is more fun on flats. Unless you are doing some type of racing I dont really think that any type of riding that requires clipless. It comes down to your personal preference just like the type of tires and saddles you like, everyone has their own opinion of what the best one is for them. Give flats a try if its not for you switch back to clipless. Its also kinda cool not having to bring an extra set of shoes along to change into after the ride!!


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Practice manuals, wheelie, jumps, drops, tech stuffs, as well as pedaling smoothness on flats. The rest of the time use clipless. 

An avg rider produce no noticeable difference in efficiency between clipless and flat pedals with sticky shoes. 

In short, pick the one you like. DJ, and trail, are about the only thing I have not seen using clipless, the rest are free for all

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## Fuglio (Jul 15, 2011)

Stick to clips. Feet come out easy. You dont even think about it when you need to dab. Or ride flats no one cares and it doesnt matter.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Have ridden clipless pedals since the early '90s. Can't imagine serious XC riding without them. I have never had a serious accident b/c I couldn't unclip. Its a no-brainer to me - clipless.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

I like riding platforms more than clipless on my mountain bike, and since for me it is all about fun (I do not ride in organized races) the choice is easy. I'm also old, and I have to admit I love it when people make assumptions about me due to my grey hair and my platform pedals, and then a couple hours later they are gasping for air and struggling to control their bike and I'm still keepin on. No question in my mind you can generate more power and ride more efficiently clipless, but the difference isn't as great as some would suggest.


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## mattnmtns (Sep 16, 2010)

I'd stick to flats. Never once had a problem getting unclipped with them. 

I really don't understand why anyone would recommend them to a beginner. In my opinion it is one more thing you have to think about instead of focusing on your riding and working on your skills. Any decent pair of flats with pins will keep you in contact with our pedals. Hard pressed to think of an instance where I slipped off the pedals. 

I guess is subscribe to the KISS (keep it super simple) theory when it comes to pedals. I know I try a lot more technical situations knowing I can easily bail. Then again I don't race, ride mostly single track, and like to being able to jump on and ride without special shoes. So my vote is for flats in all situations, at least for me. 

Each to their own, I just don't have any desire for clipless.


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## mitzikatzi (Sep 9, 2008)

This has been covered many times. 

Ride good clip-less pedals or good flats with good shoes. To get the best from flats you need good shoes.

Ride what ever you prefer and you feel confident with.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

mattnmtns said:


> I'd stick to flats. Never once had a problem getting unclipped with them.
> 
> I really don't understand why anyone would recommend them to a beginner. In my opinion it is one more thing you have to think about instead of focusing on your riding and working on your skills. Any decent pair of flats with pins will keep you in contact with our pedals. Hard pressed to think of an instance where I slipped off the pedals.
> 
> ...


Its not like im a beginner to cycling tho. Im comfortable riding clipped in i guess I just feel like riding wise are there techniques in some types of riding that dictate being clipped in is better? I suspect that i just need to improve my skills. Another example where i struggle greatly is making tight right hand turns, apparently bei g lefty or righty matters in cycling too

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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

The great debate with no right answer, 

I will put it this way. 
I see friends bail on obstacles I know they could clear because they are clippled in. 
These are people that have ridden longer than me and have even said they don't try because they are clipped in. Yet they still wont switch.

I like flats. 
Personally I think a good pair of flats with good shoes like skate shoes are the best option and spur more confidence. However, each person is different. 

So ride what you like, be happy, and don't let anyone tell you that you should do it differently or their way is better. At the end of the day, if you have a smile on your face you did it right. :thumbsup:


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## VertKurt (Jan 24, 2013)

I agree that it's all about having fun, It's why we have hobbies right? Ride clips or plats it doesn't matter just as long as you enjoy it. Me personally, VP Vice and Five10 freeriders.


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## mattnmtns (Sep 16, 2010)

cpfitness said:


> Its not like im a beginner to cycling tho. Im comfortable riding clipped in i guess I just feel like riding wise are there techniques in some types of riding that dictate being clipped in is better? I suspect that i just need to improve my skills. Another example where i struggle greatly is making tight right hand turns, apparently bei g lefty or righty matters in cycling too
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Sorry. Didn't mean to imply that you are. Just it's in the beginner forum and it seems some people are very apt to suggest clippless to people just starting out on mountain bikes.

I think you just answered your on question though. Ride flats if you think you will be more comfortable with them. Not sure where you ride. I encounter enough rock gardens, drops, jumps, and chunky boulders where I am more comfortable with flats. There is also plenty of flowy xc style trails or fire roads where clipless would be hard to argue. I guess I am lazy though. For me flats are more flexible. I can to the technical or the flow and the same pedal works for me. Just comes down to what you like.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

It's counter intuitive but flats is not as forgiving as one would think. Good combo offer zero float. You can not hide the pedaling flaws with flats the foot will lift mostly on technical climbs. 

Clipless on the other hand, is much more forgiving, regardless of how bad you are pedaling it keeps your feet in a perfect circle, definitely one less thing to worry about. That said, if the rider don't keep up with their pedaling form clipless pedals will promote many bad habits, pushing down and pulling up is not the one


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## Jake Foz (Jan 26, 2013)

I ride clipless most of the time on my main bike, but i have platforms with straps on my spare bike. Best of both worlds if you aren't an elitist. Your feet are secure, but you can still pull out and throw your feet down if need be


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## ibbo (Feb 24, 2009)

I swapped from clipless to flats last year after 4 years clipless.I'll be swapping back.I've never bailed on anything as a result of being clipped in.I've bailed on stuff in flats that I've ridden clipless,and yes I have good shoes/pedals.For some reason I just feel more comfortable on the rough stuff clipped in.
I've given Flats a good go but they're not for me


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## mjduct (Jul 31, 2012)

I think the answer the OP is looking for is not so much what all of our opinions are as it is what riding styles they are appropriate for...

I think you will see the most clopped in guys riding XC, not that technical, and pedalling power/efficiency is very important. as you get into the more technical disciplines such as Trail and AM, you'll see more and more flat riders, and in the Freeride/Downhill categories you'll probably never see clipless pedals.

As a roadie looking to cross train, and won't be riding very sketchy stuff, I run the egg beaters most of the time, but I do have a nice set of pimplites that I will swap when the trail is a little over my confidence level (and I know that before I leave the house)


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## bigfruits (Mar 21, 2011)

flats for fun.
clipless for efficiency.


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## millertm (Jul 20, 2012)

I have spent many years with clips however, once I went clipless I have never looked back. I too feel lost without my cleats. I do not feel that I can climb as well with only pushing down and not pulling up. My 2 cents.

Mark


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I have never seen a serious (fast) XC rider with flats - I am talking moderately technical flowy trails. As someone above said, its seems to me that if I was riding downhill, all-mountain, etc. that flats would be the logical choice. You already know the basics of clipless, once you are reasonably comfortable on the bike, make the switch.


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## bigfruits (Mar 21, 2011)

millertm said:


> I do not feel that I can climb as well with only pushing down and not pulling up.


you can actually push/pull through a lot of the spin on flats while seated (and even while standing after some practice). wearing good flat pedal specific shoes helps.

a good way to describe spinning on flats i read some time ago was to act like youre scraping dog crap from your sole when your foot gets close to the ground.

doesnt take long to learn. i suggest the OP give platforms a shot. if you have a similar experience to mine, you will prefer flats on any trail that is not pavement or non-technical singletrack.


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## Innota (Feb 22, 2012)

Just read this.


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## desertred (Jun 9, 2010)

In my mind, the "threshold" of moving from flat to clipless (or visa versa) is directly dependent on your confidence in your skill level and the terrain your ride. Before moving to Colorado, I rode strictly clipless as most of the trails I rode were flowing XC type singletrack. However, the terrain I ride in CO is vastly different in that it is more technical, strewn with loose rocks and rock gardens. I was (what am I talking about - I still am!) washing out or going endo fully clipped. I switched to platforms while I continue to improve my skills in the more technical terrain. When my confidence increases to where I can negotiate my current terrain without crashing (or having it occur infrequently), I may make the move back to clipless. But, I find benefit to both.


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## Ben.land101 (Dec 25, 2012)

I used to strictly ride flat, but once I tried clipless I can't go back. The benefits greatly outweigh the occasional skinned knee. Besides, riding with clipless will give you much more confidence on the rough climbs when you would normally put your foot down. 
Of course, for DH/Freeride, clipless isn't the best idea. But for XC and all mountain, it's hard to beat clipless.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

There is technique required to get the most out of flats. Once you master the procedures you'll stick to cheap pedals with cast pins whith just trailrunners. You won't think about your feet no matter what terrain.
Straight Lines with Fabien Barel - YouTube


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## wmac (Sep 29, 2010)

http://forums.mtbr.com/beginners-corner/first-time-going-clipless-815789.html


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## millertm (Jul 20, 2012)

bigfruits said:


> you can actually push/pull through a lot of the spin on flats while seated (and even while standing after some practice). wearing good flat pedal specific shoes helps.
> 
> a good way to describe spinning on flats i read some time ago was to act like youre scraping dog crap from your sole when your foot gets close to the ground.
> 
> doesnt take long to learn. i suggest the OP give platforms a shot. if you have a similar experience to mine, you will prefer flats on any trail that is not pavement or non-technical singletrack.


You have a valid point however, I do not agree that you can pull up as well w/o cleats. When I was at Angel Fire Mtn bike park and rented a full 8" dh bike I did like the flats and would not have used cleats. I have been using cleats for years now on XC and all Mtn riding and I am very comfortable with them. If you like the flats that is fine too. This is an apple to oranges thread, use what you like. I am not a hater on those that do not want to use cleats but even when scraping the flats to pull up you can not get the power that cleats will give you. If you look at most Cat 1 XC guys/gals, they are all using some type of cleat.

Mark


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## Harvie (Jan 27, 2013)

Try Straigtline Amps on my beach bike they work great and have a lot of platform.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

mjduct said:


> I think the answer the OP is looking for is not so much what all of our opinions are as it is what riding styles they are appropriate for...
> 
> I think you will see the most clopped in guys riding XC, not that technical, and pedalling power/efficiency is very important. as you get into the more technical disciplines such as Trail and AM, you'll see more and more flat riders, and in the Freeride/Downhill categories you'll probably never see clipless pedals.
> 
> As a roadie looking to cross train, and won't be riding very sketchy stuff, I run the egg beaters most of the time, but I do have a nice set of pimplites that I will swap when the trail is a little over my confidence level (and I know that before I leave the house)


Thank you for reading my post and addressing the question! So many people responding as if I've never ridden clipless pedals before! This shed a lot of light on the issue for me. While i live in NYC and you don't think of it as a MTB mecca, there are a couple of places that actually have some quite technical trails and I'm now pretty confident that platforms will probably be more appropriate for me.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

cpfitness said:


> What say you guys? I come from the road so I'm versed in clipless. I have no worries about forgetting to unclip out on the trails, it's more of a losing confidence in ability to get over something and want to put a foot down, can i unclip fast enough. As a kid, I rode a lot of bmx and i feel like sticking a leg out to make an aggressive turn was what I always did. Riding clipless on a mtb i find myself wanting to do that but obviously I can't.
> 
> So I guess my real question is, what is the threshold for riding clipped in vs platforms. What type of riding do you think "definately clipless" vs. "definately platform"?


For me, the only time I would take flats over clips is doing skinnies up off the ground. No amount of steepness of roughness makes me want flats over clipless.

A lot has to do with the pedal, though. I ride Speedplay Frogs, and I find them very easy and fast to get both in and out of. I can drop a foot in a corner and be clipped back in by the end of the next pedal stroke. I can put a foot down in most circumstances nearly as fast as I can with flats (close enough that it is just as fast for all practical purposes).

Think about this: some people race DH clipped in. Some people ride XC with flats.


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## Meowhead (Jan 15, 2012)

I ride for fun & for cardio health with my hubby... we ride platforms. I have a set of magnesium pinned flats and really like them w/ a pair of skate shoes with sticky soles. But I am also about to buy a single speed so I can get more of a work out. I feel like gears are cheating and that's also how I feel about clippin in


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## Fuglio (Jul 15, 2011)

Meowhead said:


> I ride for fun & for cardio health with my hubby... we ride platforms. I have a set of magnesium pinned flats and really like them w/ a pair of skate shoes with sticky soles. But I am also about to buy a single speed so I can get more of a work out. I feel like gears are cheating and that's also how I feel about clippin in


Thats why i ride a unicycle with a square wheel. Round wheels are for pussies


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Unfortunately, this topic is basically a "right of passage" question in general. There's little genuine concern about the benefits. To many noobs there's fear of being clipped in, but seriously the feeling went away in a very short period of riding time. 

CT, you've been a roadie using clipless before so you can relate what I'm saying, there's no issue unclipping the pedals, in most situation. Off road is a bit different because there are many difference types of trail so pick the one that suit best. 

I can see that in the past there's not much comparison between flat and CL, the pedals are heavy and the shoes are just like glass, nowadays the sole technology has improve and yield gummy bear like grip and there are plenty if light weight flat pedals at any price point, why not? 

There's no difference for most riders, but like kapusta said he uses flats when riding skinnies because as I can imagine track standing 10' above ground in the middle of a 90* corner would give me great comfort knowing I can just lift my foot off the pedal instead of twisting off. 

It's not exactly threshold from one to another but just mood or preference that dictate the choice. 




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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

mimi1885 said:


> There's no difference for most riders, but like kapusta said he uses flats when riding skinnies because as I can imagine _*track standing 10' above ground in the middle of a 90* corner *_would give me great comfort knowing I can just lift my foot off the pedal instead of twisting off.


Yeah, I WISH 

You have clearly never seen me work my nerve up to do a skinny 2' off the ground in a straight line


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

kapusta said:


> Yeah, I WISH
> 
> You have clearly never seen me work my nerve up to do a skinny 2' off the ground in a straight line


ha ha, I fell off a 3' skinny over a pond, I swear it was like a 10' drop, and I was doing just fine on the same plank that laid flat on the ground

I was really doing fine til my friends yell, don't look down, and I just told you what happened after that


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

cpfitness said:


> What say you guys? I come from the road so I'm versed in clipless. I have no worries about forgetting to unclip out on the trails, it's more of a losing confidence in ability to get over something and want to put a foot down, can i unclip fast enough. As a kid, I rode a lot of bmx and i feel like sticking a leg out to make an aggressive turn was what I always did. Riding clipless on a mtb i find myself wanting to do that but obviously I can't.
> 
> So I guess my real question is, what is the threshold for riding clipped in vs platforms. What type of riding do you think "definately clipless" vs. "definately platform"?


I ride clipless and have no desire to ride platforms. That said I started on platform and they do give you confidence to be able to put a foot down when you want to.

To me the threshold is dependent on the rider. If you always have to unclip and walk a section due to fear of falling or are always struggling to get in the pedals on the ride then platforms are better. If however you can ride trail clean then clipless have no downsides.

platforms are best for learning or for really really nasty stuff or for tying to clean the same 10foot long rock for 10-20 times in a row over 45 minutes.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

Fuglio said:


> Thats why i ride a unicycle with a square wheel. Round wheels are for pussies


My unicycle doesn't even have a seat, that's how much a man I am: ::eekster::eekster:


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

kjlued said:


> The great debate with no right answer,
> 
> I will put it this way.
> I see friends bail on obstacles I know they could clear because they are clippled in.
> These are people that have ridden longer than me and have even said they don't try because they are clipped in. Yet they still wont switch.


The reason is simple. Do you ride for 3 hrs and 20 miles only to have one 10 foot place you unclip? If so then ride what you like for that 2hrs and 55 min. Now if you are having to unclip ever 3 minutes because of the terrain and don't try because you are clipped in then it make sense to give flats a try.

BTW... I there are obstacles that I don't try, but it not because I am I use clipless pedals. They are just places I don't want to risk falling. One spot I tried and fell down rock face into some boulders. Nothing you can do when you put a foot and there is nothing there,but air.

There a few trails I ride where I can clear everything every time. Most have a least one or two spots where I am likely to put a food down. Also even with clipless pedals I can still pull out one foot and put it in the ground while turning just like you would with flats.


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## Naturally Aspirated (Aug 17, 2011)

Flats for me. I have a little less than 2 years on a mountain bike, let alone any bicycle and I'm a Cat 2 XC racer with 5 races total under my belt. I tried the clipless thing for a few months and didn't like it.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Naturally Aspirated said:


> Flats for me. I have a little less than 2 years on a mountain bike, let alone any bicycle and I'm a Cat 2 XC racer with 5 races total under my belt. I tried the clipless thing for a few months and didn't like it.


Great! You don't have to use clipless to race. In some races, I found that flat's better. One of the local race I do at the end of the year, flats faster for me. First of all, the first bottle neck to get to the single track. People are just literally standing around and wait for the traffic. I hopped out and just ran with my bike on the side of the trail, gain about 30 spots before I slowly gave them back

Also, some promoter just make up technical sections that yet create another bottle neck, I just ran with the bike til I cleared the traffic this make up a lot of time on the first lap, then laps after that I can just ride my pace. Can you do that with clipless shoes, sure it's not as comfortable.:thumbsup:


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## CuzinMike (Jul 6, 2010)

It doesn't take long to swap out pedals. I ride clipless 95% of the time because I find it's easier to clear hills on a singlespeed with them. In other words, they suit my riding style and the trails I ride (flowy xc stuff). But every now and again I like throwing on a pair of grippy flats, dropping my seat and riding a "skills" loop where I'll spend time practicing my technique getting over obstacles I struggle with until I can clean them. Usually after I build up the confidence to clean a tough trail feature on flats it's no problem clearing it clipped in, either.


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## dancingoutlaw (Dec 2, 2010)

I predict that you'll go clipless because you have experience riding with them on your road bike and you'll likely be able to transition and feel comfortable with them on the mountain bike. I had no such experience and after purchasing my first mountain bike, I tried for weeks but never felt comfortable with clipless pedals. 

My very first ride with platform pedals and 510's sealed the deal for me. I instantly gained confidence and enjoyed my time on the bike so much more and I've never looked back. Perhaps I am losing a little pedaling efficiency, especially on the climbs. However, it's a trade off I'm willing to make.

The answer to your question, for me, is that if I was going to ride smoother, faster, flowing trails that didn't have much in the way of obstacles- then I could probably convert to clipless. However, when I ride trails filled with big roots, big rocks, some of which are wet and slick no matter the current or past weather, sudden and steep climbs, tight and technical terrain- then it's platform pedals all day.


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## Naturally Aspirated (Aug 17, 2011)

mimi1885 said:


> Great! You don't have to use clipless to race. In some races, I found that flat's better. One of the local race I do at the end of the year, flats faster for me. First of all, the first bottle neck to get to the single track. People are just literally standing around and wait for the traffic. I hopped out and just ran with my bike on the side of the trail, gain about 30 spots before I slowly gave them back
> 
> Also, some promoter just make up technical sections that yet create another bottle neck, I just ran with the bike til I cleared the traffic this make up a lot of time on the first lap, then laps after that I can just ride my pace. Can you do that with clipless shoes, sure it's not as comfortable.:thumbsup:


Yup. And the argument that clipless riders use that gets them over obstacles better... bs... I have yet to fail with my 510's and pinned platforms.


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## Jwind (Mar 1, 2006)

bigfruits said:


> flats for fun.
> clipless for efficiency.


This. </thread>

BTW, I ride both. Neither one is better. Just different.


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## Thor29 (May 12, 2005)

When I ride lift assisted downhill, I still use clipless pedals. I like the extra control they give me and I can still unclip and stick out a leg when I want to. The only reason I would ever ride platform pedals on a mountain bike is if I were trying to do aerial maneuvers where I might want to bail in midair. But if I am just hucking it into the air and not getting too fancy, then clipless is just fine for jumping or dropping off boulders.


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## jayseakay (Nov 25, 2012)

I hate flats...specially on bumpy a** singletrack. My feet fly all over the place. I was a newbie, rode for 6 mos, and I was able to transition to clips on mtn with very little problems. Coming from a road background you'll be fine. If you like DH riding and that's more your style...stay flat. If you like xc and you wanna go a little fast and have that extra pull on the up stroke...go for clips.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

jayseakay said:


> I hate flats...specially on bumpy a** singletrack. My feet fly all over the place. I was a newbie, rode for 6 mos, and I was able to transition to clips on mtn with very little problems. Coming from a road background you'll be fine. If you like DH riding and that's more your style...stay flat. If you like xc and you wanna go a little fast and have that extra pull on the up stroke...go for clips.


If you feet fly all over the place, you need to improve your technique, it's not the pedals. Switching to clipless may keep the feet attach to the bike but it does not solve the problem, your rear wheel still flying all over the place

You can go faster up the climb on a SS using clipless it's higher gear and the rider has no choice but to muscle the climb so pulling on a low rpm would help. Normal riding nope, pulling does not make it more efficient, sorry. If you were to tell me, feeling faster makes you faster, I'd buy that:thumbsup:


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## jayseakay (Nov 25, 2012)

mimi1885 said:


> If you feet fly all over the place, you need to improve your technique, it's not the pedals. Switching to clipless may keep the feet attach to the bike but it does not solve the problem, your rear wheel still flying all over the place
> 
> You can go faster up the climb on a SS using clipless it's higher gear and the rider has no choice but to muscle the climb so pulling on a low rpm would help. Normal riding nope, pulling does not make it more efficient, sorry. If you were to tell me, feeling faster makes you faster, I'd buy that:thumbsup:


I don't know how anyone can deny that having a pull and a push does not increase pedaling efficiency. You only have a push on a platform...it's as simple as that. If it wasn't more efficient than everyone would ride platforms instead of the majority riding with clips.

And that's for criticizing my riding style...even though you don't know me...or my bike...or my location.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

jayseakay said:


> I don't know how anyone can deny that having a pull and a push does not increase pedaling efficiency. You only have a push on a platform...it's as simple as that. If it wasn't more efficient than everyone would ride platforms instead of the majority riding with clips.
> 
> And that's for criticizing my riding style...even though you don't know me...or my bike...or my location.


Most people arent coordinated enough to push and pull at the same time so being clipped in doesnt necessarily mean more efficiency. Slow climbs you can pull only and give the pushing muscles some rest and alternate between the too. But my question wasnt about efficiency it's about ride style/ terrain and its effect on determining what to use.

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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

millertm said:


> You have a valid point however, I do not agree that you can pull up as well w/o cleats. When I was at Angel Fire Mtn bike park and rented a full 8" dh bike I did like the flats and would not have used cleats. I have been using cleats for years now on XC and all Mtn riding and I am very comfortable with them. If you like the flats that is fine too. This is an apple to oranges thread, use what you like. I am not a hater on those that do not want to use cleats but even when scraping the flats to pull up you can not get the power that cleats will give you. If you look at most Cat 1 XC guys/gals, they are all using some type of cleat.
> 
> Mark


Ug, this topic again...

Don't confuse the ability to pull on a pedal with power. The pull stroke on a pedal is an emergency move, not an efficient cycling movement. There are a lot of reasons to ride either clipless or flat pedals but pedaling efficiency is not one of them. Or, perhaps I should say, that unless someone is paying you to ride your bike full time then this isn't a valid reason to choose one pedal over another. Flats are not less efficient, and ask any BMX rider if they can "pull up" on their pedals and they'll bunny hop over your head.

I recommend anyone who is new to off road cycling, no matter their comfort level with clipless pedals from any other type of cycling, learn to ride off road with [good] flat pedals. Of course, since you are familiar with the mechanism you will probably be fine if you just run them straight away but I find that it is one less thing to hamper your skill development since you're not worried if you'll come out of the pedals or not.


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

mitzikatzi said:


> To get the best from flats you need good shoes.


Coming from a road background what are good shoes for platforms? I was too old for the BMX craze. So, I don't know much about their shoes.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

CS2 said:


> Coming from a road background what are good shoes for platforms? I was too old for the BMX craze. So, I don't know much about their shoes.


Five ten, nuff said

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## CuzinMike (Jul 6, 2010)

zebrahum said:


> The pull stroke on a pedal is an emergency move, not an efficient cycling movement.


True, but it also makes bunny hopping obstacles really easy without all those pesky years of practice. 

Seriously, both flats and clips are fun in their own ways. There's no way for a new rider to know what they'll like best until they try both.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

jayseakay said:


> I don't know how anyone can deny that having a pull and a push does not increase pedaling efficiency. You only have a push on a platform...it's as simple as that. If it wasn't more efficient than everyone would ride platforms instead of the majority riding with clips.
> 
> And that's for criticizing my riding style...even though you don't know me...or my bike...or my location.


 zebrahum beats me to it

Pulling or upstroke is done by smaller group of muscles which overwhelm by larger group of muscles pushing on the down stroke. The transition where clipless would have yield more efficiency over flats is the bottom of stroke. If you work very hard at it you can fill the dead spot by scraping the pedal at the bottom and bring it toward 5 o'clock position and the down stroke of your other foot would do the rest. Repeat again and again til you master it.

This is very difficult and requires a lot of focus before it becomes second nature. Most pros practice this, many riders do it, their hard work pays off. Average riders, weekend warriors? NO. Like CT said it takes a long time and lots of practice to get the coordination down. It's much simpler and more efficient to just push on the down stroke and rest on the up stroke.

Some of the reason to use clipless would be the ability to be light and heavy on the pedals, with flats you have to weight the pedals most of the time. Clipless keeps your feet on the pedal and pedaling in circle, that's one less thing to think about.

As for your riding style, hey do what you want. You were blaming the pedals for the lack of technique on a clipless vs flats thread, expect to be called out. You don't have to weight your pedals all the time when riding, but loosing control of your footing is just bad form, then blame it on the pedals? Have you heard of pumping? Check it out it would help your timing.

I addressed the pros and cons of both type on the first page as well as efficiency myth. Check it out


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Well i have ordered a set of vp001 flat pedals. Ive read they are decent but at 40 bucks they are decently priced and they will match my bike nicely. I tjink until i get more time out on the trails i will favor flats. Im especially shitty at making tight right hand turns but am great at the hard lefts. Also being a clyde means there are some steeper hills that are just nearly impossible to get up mainly because of traction issues not lack of power. Many of my falls have been caused by that. 

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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

cpfitness said:


> Well i have ordered a set of vp001 flat pedals. Ive read they are decent but at 40 bucks they are decently priced and they will match my bike nicely. I tjink until i get more time out on the trails i will favor flats. Im especially shitty at making tight right hand turns but am great at the hard lefts. Also being a clyde means there are some steeper hills that are just nearly impossible to get up mainly because of traction issues not lack of power. Many of my falls have been caused by that.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


On steep climbs I'd pretty much move my butt to the nose of the saddle, slight pull on the handlebar downward toward the bottom bracket. Pedal smoothly, and weight the rear tire enough to bite. We've all been there, just keep at it you'll be surprise how steep you can climb on the bike.

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## jayseakay (Nov 25, 2012)

mimi1885 said:


> As for your riding style, hey do what you want. You were blaming the pedals for the lack of technique on a clipless vs flats thread, expect to be called out. You don't have to weight your pedals all the time when riding, but loosing control of your footing is just bad form, then blame it on the pedals? Have you heard of pumping? Check it out it would help your timing.
> 
> I addressed the pros and cons of both type on the first page as well as efficiency myth. Check it out


I apologize for noticing a significant improvement in my general riding style after switching to clips. I also apologize for having "bad form" during my first few months of riding by losing my pedals a few times. Hadn't ever ridden a mountain bike...ever...and had a hard time adjusting.

And if they are not more efficient...why the heck don't the pros all just ride flats? Why don't road riders use flats as well? Your argument isn't based on fact. It's opinion. Which is fine.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

I prefer clipless personally. Not really for efficiency but I just like having my feet secured to the pedals. I rode BMX for years before getting on a mountain bike so I was used to flats. With some of the rooted and rocky downhills here my feet always seemed to get forced off a pedal in some way or another when bombing down a hill as fast as I could on my hard tail. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad on an FS bike?

It makes it easier to pedal on these rough down hills too. I like going as fast as possible . After using them for a little while slipping out of the pedal to dab a foot down hasn't been an issue with the Crank Bros Candy 2 pedals I'm using.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

jayseakay, just remember heavy feet light hands. when ur feet are well planted and hands are barely holding the bars, ur in sync with the bike.

chapter three here explains the dog **** scraping tech 
Bike Skills - bike bizzomb


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## t1bosie (Jan 29, 2013)

I think you just sold me. For 20 years I related my mtb to have my clipless petals because they are efficient, but I would race and ride BMX with "flats". I have fun on flats. I dont plan to win any XC races where I need to be efficient. I will start having fun on my mtb with flats.


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## Atl-Biker (Feb 8, 2012)

jayseakay said:


> I apologize for noticing a significant improvement in my general riding style after switching to clips. I also apologize for having "bad form" during my first few months of riding by losing my pedals a few times. Hadn't ever ridden a mountain bike...ever...and had a hard time adjusting.
> 
> And if they are not more efficient...why the heck don't the pros all just ride flats? Why don't road riders use flats as well? Your argument isn't based on fact. It's opinion. Which is fine.


Actually studies have been done that do show that using the upstroke (pulling up) is NOT more efficient.

There is a way to make clipless more efficient, however it is very unlikely that anyone that isn't devoting their entire day to riding would be able to achieve this (professional). I have a friend that is a pro and she laughs when she reads about how pulling up on the pedals is proper form. Sure it can be used in an emergency situation to get to the top of a hill but it's no way proper form as you are using the wrong muscles to pedal.

Keep in mind that Pro riders spend countless hours in practicing technique that most of us don't have the time for. Not too mention the slight weight advantage which means a lot to them.

Clipless is more of a preference and while there may be benifits pedaling efficeincy isn't one IMO. One tip I learned on here was to keep the heels down when decending and I honestly couldn't believe the difference it made. No more bouncing off the pedals lol.

Don't take offense to Mimi, he knows his stuff and this topic has been beat to death on here and 99% of the time ends up with the same reasoning.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

cpfitness: if I'd come across this thread earlier, I'd have just recommended going with what you know, since you're already comfortable with clipless pedals, and flat pedals have their own learning curve, which will add one more thing for your mind to keep track of in your transition to mountain biking. Since you've bought the flats already, you'll learn another skill and you can choose for yourself which you prefer. Make sure you give them at least a month before deciding.

Much of this is already covered, so I'll just add a couple random observations: as far as the conventional wisdom of clipless or XC; flats for DH - plenty of WC level downhill racers ride clipped in (e.g. Gwin, Hart). In fact, flat riders are still probably in the minority in the top 10, enough that it's not unusual to hear Rob Warner point out a rider on them (e.g. Hill, Bryceland). On the other hand, I'd guess most of not all freeriders/big mountain riders are on flat pedals. Then there are a couple disciplines where you absolutely have to be on flats: slopestyle and dirt jump. Hard to do a superman when you're clipped in...

And mimi1885 and zebrahum are absolutely right about staying planted on flat pedals. Riding them WILL make you a better rider through the rough, because you'll have to learn to relax and get loose to stay on the pedals. If you feel like your feet are getting bucked off, that's a signal. Remember Lee McCormack's mantra of "heavy feet; light hands" and keep your weight on the pedals, centered over your bottom bracket. 

But in the end, at our level, it's 100% personal preference.


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## CURIOUS LYNN (Jan 30, 2013)

Hello and good morning everyone. Please excuse me for jumping in. I'm new with alot of questions. Ivee never used a site like this before and I'm unsure where to start. My 12yr old daughter wants a bike. We were looking at the mongoose XR100.Can anyone tell me anything on this bike or recommend anything. I don't have alot on money to spend do realize you get what you pay for...which is why I don't mind buying used. Please help


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## trailrider24 (Dec 14, 2012)

I vote for clipless. Just because the effeciency and because your feet won't slip down on a bigger hit, or rough terrain. Sure you have to get used to the clipless riding and train how to clip out in different situations, but it worth to try out. It is used mostly on XC, Marathon, Trail and some All Mountain bikes, but some use it on his(/her) Downhill bike. You can find pedals on the web that is both clipless and flat, for example Crank Brothers Mallet. (I think it's usable with normal shoes)


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

CURIOUS LYNN said:


> Hello and good morning everyone. Please excuse me for jumping in. I'm new with alot of questions. Ivee never used a site like this before and I'm unsure where to start. My 12yr old daughter wants a bike. We were looking at the mongoose XR100.Can anyone tell me anything on this bike or recommend anything. I don't have alot on money to spend do realize you get what you pay for...which is why I don't mind buying used. Please help


No offense but you should start a new thread within the beginner forum to get this answered. Proper etiquette is to keep responses within a topic soecific to that topic

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## CURIOUS LYNN (Jan 30, 2013)

I couldn't figure out how to start a new one. Sorry & good bye.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

cpfitness said:


> Its not like im a beginner to cycling tho. Im comfortable riding clipped in i guess I just feel like riding wise are there techniques in some types of riding that dictate being clipped in is better? I suspect that i just need to improve my skills. Another example where i struggle greatly is making tight right hand turns, apparently bei g lefty or righty matters in cycling too
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I would say yes there are times. i switched to platforms to work on wheelies and manuals and really enjoyed the benefits of platforms. However there are a number of very technical climbs on a particular trail that when I switched back to clipless I could throw down the bit of extra power to clean them. It wasnt a huge difference, but if there were 30 things that I couldnt clear I could clear an extra 5.

I never hamburgered my shins on platforms but on our very technical trails starting from a stop on technical terrain I often times just nicked my legs on the platforms. Not enough that it hurt, but enough that I have small dot scars all over my legs.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Uh-oh, another clipless vs. flats thread.

Well, I'm out of things to do and want to procrastinate a little more before I go to school.

I usually ride clipless pedals on my "serious" bikes. Do I think I'm more efficient on them? Sure. I have a pretty rapid cadence and a very light pedal stroke. I stay in the right place on my pedals, and they mate with my rigid-soled cycling shoes. Do I think I'm 10% more efficient? Hell no. Probably 1-2%. A small difference, anyway. Bear in mind that the jumps in gear ratio on a mountain bike cassette are 15%. I do think the shoes have a bit more importance, although again, it's on the order of 1-2%, probably that same 1-2% I just credited to the pedals. 

I was already on clipless when I learned to "bunny hop." It was a crappy, inefficient bunny hop, and I had to preload, so it was a bit slow. But yes, you can jump, then yank your bike upwards with clipless pedals.

After I started racing and got to see more strong technical riders, I identified my technique as being a major area of potential growth (euphemism for suckiness...) So I bought some cheap flats and worked on wheelies, manuals and bunny hops. I can't balance a wheelie, but I now do my manuals and bunnyhops by pressing with my legs and moving my center of mass around. I can do both much faster and with much less effort. To be fair, I currently have a better bunny hop with clipless pedals than with flats. So I'm sure I'm still cheating some. But I agree with those who say that if you can't do a bunny hop on flat pedals, you aren't actually doing a bunny hop.

As far as what other people should ride? Both. There are things to learn from both systems. Clipless pedal systems do seem to have a higher minimum cost, but I think someone who does some road miles could learn the same things in pedals with toe clips and the straps cinched down. Those pedals only cost $15. Clipless riders whining about the cost of another system need only spend $15 too. I'm sure the more expensive pedals are better - I thought it worthwhile to buy expensive shoes for riding. But as a training tool, why spend more than the minimum? Go ahead and shell out a bit more for good parts for your primary system...


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

CURIOUS LYNN said:


> I couldn't figure out how to start a new one. Sorry & good bye.


 No worries, I believe you may have to make a minimum number of posts before you can start a new thread. it's either 5 or 10 posts i believe.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

jayseakay said:


> I don't know how anyone can deny that having a pull and a push does not increase pedaling efficiency. You only have a push on a platform...it's as simple as that. If it wasn't more efficient than everyone would ride platforms instead of the majority riding with clips.
> 
> And that's for criticizing my riding style...even though you don't know me...or my bike...or my location.


I don't know how anyone can claim anything without proof of said claim. Do some reading, I think there's some papers referenced in this article as well: http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/ManifestowithLinks2.pdf 
Most people ride clipless because everyone tells them they should. If there wasn't a stigma about what pedals you need to ride if you want to be "serious" about mountain biking, I doubt that you could say the "majority" is riding clips (you meant to say clipless there).

Quite frankly, Mimi was right to criticize your riding technique (not your style as you claimed). If your feet bounce off of flat pedals while riding, you aren't riding correctly for the use of flat pedals. Downhill racers often ride flat pedals and they don't bounce off the pedals so no matter where you're riding, you have the same capability if you knew how. Everyone has plenty to learn, it's not an indictment on anyone's ability or willingness to ride a bike it was simply pointing out that you're using clipless pedals as a crutch to mask a physiological deficiency when it comes to flat pedal cycling.

I'm pretty certain no one knows how to stick to a flat pedal without a learning curve or some guided discovery. Flats: check 'em out.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

jayseakay said:


> I apologize for noticing a significant improvement in my general riding style after switching to clips. I also apologize for having "bad form" during my first few months of riding by losing my pedals a few times. Hadn't ever ridden a mountain bike...ever...and had a hard time adjusting.
> 
> And if they are not more efficient...why the heck don't the pros all just ride flats? Why don't road riders use flats as well? Your argument isn't based on fact. It's opinion. Which is fine.


Thanks guys and zebra

It's not my intention to bust your ball, but we are in a beginners forum and this topic is one of the most popular topic among noobs. Misconception like clipless gives noob more pedaling efficiency is just not true. Same can be said about hardtail is more efficient than FS, but that's another can of worm

If you want to do the experiment yourself, you can just time yourself on the flat road, say 1/2 a mile. Ride one normally, then ride one with push down only, and lastly ride one with pull up only no help from down stroke. You'd have your answer. I did it but you probably want to prove it yourself. The focus of pulling up motion is enough distraction to erase any efficiency gain. Putting all the motion together into one perfect stroke is just as difficult. Do that a million+ times a year for a few years, then you'd have a stroke that's more efficient than flats.

On the other hand, you can just re-install the flats and see how much bad habits you have accumulated from clipless, like lifting your feet on the climb, jerky motion, etc and try to make the improvement from there.

I came across a few studies on efficiency so Jay, if you still want the info pm me I'll google that for you. I'm not anti-clipless I'm using both love them both.

Pedaling is a skill just like everything else, doing it is a no brainer, mastering however, may takes years. Do you still me to answer why pros are using clipless?

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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Not this topic again. It appears that it is already answered. If you are very comfortable riding clipless then ride clipless. If you feel uncomfortable and need to put your foot down a lot do not ride clipless. It isn't for everyone. Do what you're most comfortable with. Once you gain more confidence on your bike you may want to opt for clipless again then.


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## jayseakay (Nov 25, 2012)

mimi1885 said:


> Thanks guys and zebra
> 
> It's not my intention to bust your ball, but we are in a beginners forum and this topic is one of the most popular topic among noobs. Misconception like clipless gives noob more pedaling efficiency is just not true. Same can be said about hardtail is more efficient than FS, but that's another can of worm
> 
> ...


Thanks for referencing the ball but I'm actually a girl 

Mid-twenties. No previous experience on bikes other than having learned to ride one when I was a kid. Obviously I started on flats. Yes...my feet flew off the pedals my first few months of riding. After that I was able to ride flats...without losing my grip on the pedals (you guys are preaching to the choir about learning). AFTER that...clips made me feel even better on the downs and ups. I'll never ride without clips again. It's a preference.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

jayseakay said:


> Thanks for referencing the ball but I'm actually a girl
> 
> Mid-twenties. No previous experience on bikes other than having learned to ride one when I was a kid. Obviously I started on flats. Yes...my feet flew off the pedals my first few months of riding. After that I was able to ride flats...without losing my grip on the pedals (you guys are preaching to the choir about learning). AFTER that...clips made me feel even better on the downs and ups. I'll never ride without clips again. It's a preference.


This has been my experience as well. There's no turning back for me either unless I thought I was going to be riding crazy stuff where I would need to bail in a moments notice. I do not ride like that, I'm an XC guy, so I just own my clipless pedals and shoes. There is a learning curve, but there is a learning curve to everything in life.


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## jayseakay (Nov 25, 2012)

Rod said:


> This has been my experience as well. There's no turning back for me either unless I thought I was going to be riding crazy stuff where I would need to bail in a moments notice. I do not ride like that, I'm an XC guy, so I just own my clipless pedals and shoes. There is a learning curve, but there is a learning curve to everything in life.


This...thank you!


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

jayseakay said:


> Thanks for referencing the ball but I'm actually a girl
> 
> Mid-twenties. No previous experience on bikes other than having learned to ride one when I was a kid. Obviously I started on flats. Yes...my feet flew off the pedals my first few months of riding. After that I was able to ride flats...without losing my grip on the pedals (you guys are preaching to the choir about learning). AFTER that...clips made me feel even better on the downs and ups. I'll never ride without clips again. It's a preference.


Ha ha, no problem, I'm a guy, I know the user name, long story. Well keep at it, and keep an open mind, there's a reason(s) why many veterans start switching/adding flats to their rides.

Some riders don't want to switch because it makes them look like a noobs, myself included, but seriously how hard is it to unclip after a few months of riding, I've been on clipless for about 10 yrs. it's not about that.:thumbsup:


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## Gordon Shumway (Sep 17, 2012)

*My preference...*

Not the stickiest soles but they make me feel pretty


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

jayseakay said:


> ...I'll never ride without clips again. It's a preference.





Rod said:


> ...There's no turning back for me either unless I thought I was going to be riding crazy stuff where I would need to bail in a moments notice.


I learned on toe clips, moved on to clipless and stayed there for around 10 years. Bought a DJ bike and rode Ray's a few times, started to realize just how much I relied on the pedals to do a lot of the work. I'd ride the DJ bike around and practiced the skills I was lacking, eventually I could take those skills over to my trail bike. I kept the flats on the DJ and clipless on my hardtail for a few years then I got a long travel full suspension bike which is my every-day workhorse now. Put flats on it exclusively and haven't looked back. It's impossible to describe but they make riding a bike more fun. I would imagine I'll ride clipless again, maybe when I build myself a new [650?] hardtail, but it's been quite a beneficial experience to learn so much after feeling pretty confident in my skill set.

So watch saying you'll never go back, just remember that there's a lot to learn from either pedal and that getting stagnate in your skill set stagnates your progress on trail.

My objection to these threads is the boast that one is inherently better than the other and that's simply not true. Back in the time where toe-clips were the norm, clipless was a reasonable suggestion to improve one's life on the bike. Today with insanely grippy shoes and wide, flat, and pinned pedals the gap has closed. No longer do you have to choose between getting stuck in a toe clip tightened down enough to hold your foot or riding clipless. Technology has changed and it's time that baseless statements about pulling pedals and efficiency are put to rest.


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## jayseakay (Nov 25, 2012)

As a side note... I hate that clipless pedals are called that. It sounds dumb. You freaking clip in and clip out. And yet...clipless.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

jayseakay said:


> As a side note... I hate that clipless pedals are called that. It sounds dumb. You freaking clip in and clip out. And yet...clipless.


Well a clip was the reference to the toe clip pedals, the cleats retention type pedals like shimano spd no longer need the toe clip, hence the term clipless. Now you know.

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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Plenty of people still use toe clips. I have a set on my commuter, in fact. So that name is occupied, and you can't have it for your pedals that don't actually have toe clips on them anyway.


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## jayseakay (Nov 25, 2012)

Yeah no I know the origin. Just sounds stupid lol.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

zebrahum said:


> My objection to these threads is the boast that one is inherently better than the other and that's simply not true. Technology has changed and it's time that baseless statements about pulling pedals and efficiency are put to rest.


Better is subjective, efficiency isn't.

Please don't view this statement as me beating the war drum, I am only trying to learn. I keep hearing about clipless pedals having 0% efficiency advantage on this forum and I can find no studies to confirm or deny this. Maybe "pulling" is the wrong word but I hardly think the opinion of thousands of pro racers is "baseless statements".

I will gladly eat crow if I am proven wrong.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> Better is subjective, efficiency isn't.
> 
> Please don't view this statement as me beating the war drum, I am only trying to learn. I keep hearing about clipless pedals having 0% efficiency advantage on this forum and I can find no studies to confirm or deny this. Maybe "pulling" is the wrong word but I hardly think the opinion of thousands of pro racers is "baseless statements".
> 
> I will gladly eat crow if I am proven wrong.


I dont know why this efficiency discussion continues. If i want to be fast and efficient i would be on my road bike. Im trying to figure out what will serve me best on the technical stuff and tight twisty stuff. Where I ride we dont have this flowy fire roady stuff

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

cpfitness said:


> I dont know why this efficiency discussion continues.


Should have read the whole thread, sorry for the drift.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> Better is subjective, efficiency isn't.
> 
> Please don't view this statement as me beating the war drum, I am only trying to learn. I keep hearing about clipless pedals having 0% efficiency advantage on this forum and I can find no studies to confirm or deny this. Maybe "pulling" is the wrong word but I hardly think the opinion of thousands of pro racers is "baseless statements".
> 
> I will gladly eat crow if I am proven wrong.


First off, stop comparing yourself to pro racers. If you had any idea what it takes to ride a bike at that level you would understand that what you do has nothing to do with what they do with the vague exception that they are also on a human powered machine rolling on two wheels. As soon as you spend every day with a cycling trainer with the goal of shaving thousandths off of a time then you can start pulling the "well the pros do it" card.

Even very serious rec riding will not be impacted by the inherent efficiency difference between one system or the other. Let's say we find a study that shows a 2% difference between a clipless system and a flat pedal system, so what? What does 2% mean? How does 2% affect your leg fatigue or your distance capability? It's not a 100% transfer from the efficiency of a part of a bicycle to the performance of a bicycle. I think the studies relating pedaling efficiency are focused on the power application to the pedals. Anytime someone says that pulling on pedals is an efficient cycling movement it's been proven incorrect through a few studies.



cpfitness said:


> I dont know why this efficiency discussion continues. If i want to be fast and efficient i would be on my road bike. Im trying to figure out what will serve me best on the technical stuff and tight twisty stuff. Where I ride we dont have this flowy fire roady stuff
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Make sure you try to search the forum for your answers before posting a question. It will keep you from posting one of the handful of grenades like "clipless vs flats" or "26 vs 29" which are destined to turn your topic into a constantly downward spiraling flame war of misinformation.

To directly answer your question once again:


zebrahum said:


> I recommend anyone who is new to off road cycling, no matter their comfort level with clipless pedals from any other type of cycling, learn to ride off road with [good] flat pedals. Of course, since you are familiar with the mechanism you will probably be fine if you just run them straight away but I find that it is one less thing to hamper your skill development since you're not worried if you'll come out of the pedals or not.


The biggest hurdle to skill development is fear and fear can be as innocuous as that little voice in the back of your head that asks if your feet will hit the ground first if you tip over. Many people can get over this quickly, but it is my opinion that if everyone starts on flats that they have the best chance of developing skills without worrying about the falling due to pedals issue. If you would rather run clipless straight away, you'll probably be fine but I always suggest that people run flats first.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I don't think you need to be some elite level road racer to gain some efficiency from clip-less. I'm an average rider and I can tell the difference. Is it huge? No, but it's there. However, it is a small enough difference that if I felt like flats were an advantage to me from a technical standpoint (or if clipless were a hindrance), I'd run them. But for me, they are not.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

zebrahum said:


> Make sure you try to search the forum for your answers before posting a question. It will keep you from posting one of the handful of grenades like "clipless vs flats" or "26 vs 29" which are destined to turn your topic into a constantly downward spiraling flame war of misinformation.


When I find a forum that has a working search feature, I will gladly use it. I understand my topic is vague, but my question was fairly specific, everyone just assumes that clipless vs flats is an efficiency discussion when I never said anything of the sort. I'm not mad about it, I like spirited discussions, I'm just trying to keep it germane to the actual question.

Totally agree with you on the fear element, my first couple times out I was very fearless, then I went into a muddy turn and the front tire washed out and I was on my ass in no time flat. then I was climbing in a rocky area and fell over. so on and so forth, 2nd time out, I had a lot less confidence as I thought about how little I wanted to fall and bust my ass and as a result, I wasn't bold enough to try much of anything.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

cpfitness said:


> When I find a forum that has a working search feature, I will gladly use it. I understand my topic is vague, but my question was fairly specific, everyone just assumes that clipless vs flats is an efficiency discussion when I never said anything of the sort. I'm not mad about it, I like spirited discussions, I'm just trying to keep it germane to the actual question.
> 
> Totally agree with you on the fear element, my first couple times out I was very fearless, then I went into a muddy turn and the front tire washed out and I was on my ass in no time flat. then I was climbing in a rocky area and fell over. so on and so forth, 2nd time out, I had a lot less confidence as I thought about how little I wanted to fall and bust my ass and as a result, I wasn't bold enough to try much of anything.


All I meant is that if you've ever seen one of the near weekly discussions on the topic of clipless vs flats you would know that no matter the intent of the topic they always devolve into exactly what you've seen here. People pulling threads off topic presenting opinions as facts then others spiraling out of control while they try to set what is and is not accurate. It's a problem throughout a lot of the beginner's forum, really.

There's a lot of things you can do to cope with being in an uncomfortable situation as it pertains to mountain biking. Obviously, picking a pedal you are comfortable with is one of those things. As a road cyclist, I would venture to guess your saddle is up high in an efficient position for pedaling; may I suggest lowering it as you learn? Most of us off road riders are pretty used to constantly changing saddle height depending on the terrain we are riding or expecting. The prevalence of dropper seatposts is testament to that. But as someone just getting comfortable, I would suggest playing with your saddle height. Drop it down 2" and go for a ride. It'll probably feel awful when you're climbing but for flat and downhill terrain it will be an eye opener. Then play with it, maybe an inch down is good for now, maybe 1.5" inches. Maybe there's a tricky section (a rock garden or a steep hill) where you would want to slam that thing to the top tube; well go for it. Eventually you might get into the habit of adjusting your saddle at the tops and bottoms of hills. Around here we climb for several miles then descend for several miles so it's easy to put the saddle up for pedaling and down for downhills. I think the best thing we did for my wife's biking (she picked up mountain biking for the first time a few years back) was to get her a dropper seatpost. With that one upgrade, she can nearly instantly get the saddle down when a tricky spot pops up and still be able to ride up hill without having to get off and stop (which can be very frustrating). It's an expensive upgrade but it is a serious tool for all riders if they want to need to get the saddle down. I've been riding a long time so I'm used to bouncing the saddle off my chest as I hang off the back of the bike, but I will be purchasing the Thomson dropper post when they release it because it is an amazing tool for all riders.


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

If you're using a proper pedal stroke, clipless pedals are extremely helpful if not mandatory if efficiency is what you're after. The proper pedal stroke consists of firing your legs using four different muscle groups in sequential timing similar to how a four cylinder engine works. You fire glutes from 2-5, hamstrings from 5-9, hip flexors from 9-11:30 and quads from 11:30 to 2. This is a very loose range of designations for how you should pedal and there is some overlap between the groups (the use of hip flexors to quads in the stroke may be blurred a bit).

If you're doing more stunty type of riding, or working on skills such as a true bunny hop or other ways to get your rear wheel off the ground without pulling up on your heels, flat pedals are very helpful.

They each have different qualities and neither one is better than the other. I don't think there's really a clear threshold. If I was going to do a century of singletrack, I'd definitely want clipless. When I'm simply doing technique practice/drills, flats are what I prefer... 95% of my riding is on clipless though and I think they add some confidence when bombing down hills. I have the pedals set to release pretty easily and can pup out of them extremely quickly.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

cpfitness said:


> When I find a forum that has a working search feature, I will gladly use it.


Every forum has a working search feature.

Google. 

add "site:forums.mtbr.com" to the search box to restrict your search to MTBR.

Although it doesn't hurt to also bump into stuff like the Bikejames and Grant Peterson articles.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

zebrahum said:


> First off, stop comparing yourself to pro racers. If you had any idea what it takes to ride a bike at that level you would understand that what you do has nothing to do with what they do with the vague exception that they are also on a human powered machine rolling on two wheels. As soon as you spend every day with a cycling trainer with the goal of shaving thousandths off of a time then you can start pulling the "well the pros do it" card.


I was trying to ask a legit question, why the need to be demeaning? I didn't compare myself to a pro (though I'm not sure how you know of my past career), however I have been friends with a few though and I definitely learned a thing or two from them. I already apologized for the thread drift and I was only asking because despite reading past threads on the subject I haven't really learned much because for some reason people get in a huff and throw out spiteful responses instead of actually contributing.


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## petey15 (Sep 1, 2006)

I started out on flats, like most beginners do. After a couple of years riding flats, it was recommended that I give clipless pedals a try because it would improve my efficiency and climbing ability. I did notice a difference in how much more power I felt on my pedal strokes and for some applications, it was great. After a couple of years on them, though, I found that I was not progressing the way I felt I should. Rather than use good technique on going over log piles or other obstacles, I was instead relying on the fact that my pedals, and hence my bike, were attached to my feet and I was basically pulling it along. But, then I had some hard falls going over things that I was just unable to unclip in time. It happens. I had a lot of experience unclipping. I've written about this on other threads. Sometimes things just "happen". Clipless pedals need to be properly maintained in order to make sure the spring is working properly. Cleats wear out and make it more difficult to unclip. I grew frustrated with the fact that I was becoming less confident despite gaining more experience. 

Last summer I enrolled in a clinic. I decided to put flats back on. And this time, when learning about unweighting the bike to go over things, I was using the right technique to do it, instead of dragging my bike with me. And believe me, it was hard at first! It felt like I had developed a lot of "bad" habits along the way. There are definitely different techniques employed when using flat pedals. However, my confidence increased tremendously. Just knowing I could put a foot down easily was huge. Look at all of the trails riders out there and what they can do - without their feet clipped in. It's technique. Now, if you're doing a lot of cross-country riding that doesn't get into much techy stuff, and you feel comfortable with them, go for it! I'm not saying one type of pedal is more "right" than the other. Do what is "right" for you! I still use clipless pedals on my singlespeed 29er xc bike. Fine. But my other bikes all now sport flats and I couldn't be happier. I try a lot more and my confidence has increased. I get people who tell me I should really try clipless. I tell them, I have, I prefer flats. Nothing "wrong" with that. I can still climb. I can do any of the things they can with their clipless pedals. 

If you are happier and more confident on flats - ride them! After all, it's all about fun, and getting out there and riding...right?


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

dirtdan said:


> If you're using a proper pedal stroke, clipless pedals are extremely helpful if not mandatory if efficiency is what you're after. The proper pedal stroke consists of firing your legs using four different muscle groups in sequential timing similar to how a four cylinder engine works. You fire glutes from 2-5, hamstrings from 5-9, hip flexors from 9-11:30 and quads from 11:30 to 2. This is a very loose range of designations for how you should pedal and there is some overlap between the groups (the use of hip flexors to quads in the stroke may be blurred a bit).
> 
> If you're doing more stunty type of riding, or working on skills such as a true bunny hop or other ways to get your rear wheel off the ground without pulling up on your heels, flat pedals are very helpful.
> 
> They each have different qualities and neither one is better than the other. I don't think there's really a clear threshold. If I was going to do a century of singletrack, I'd definitely want clipless. When I'm simply doing technique practice/drills, flats are what I prefer... 95% of my riding is on clipless though and I think they add some confidence when bombing down hills. I have the pedals set to release pretty easily and can pup out of them extremely quickly.


See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Have you actually done any reading on the research which has been done on cycling? While you have simplified the pedal stroke, I'm not going to argue that you have identified the major muscle groups in each segment pretty well I will point out there there is a lot more muscle overlap then you are implying. The upward stroke is not applying force to the pedal when you're pedaling properly, it is simply lifting the weight of the leg and foot. This means that no matter what pedal you are using you are capable of pedaling with a proper cycling movement. The hip flexors are much weaker and much more easily injured than the much larger muscle groups which are meant for body weight bearing and movement. Using the hip flexors as they are intended is a much more efficient way of pedaling than attempting to pull upward on a pedal.

The misunderstanding of the phrase "pedaling circles" is probably one of the most destructive forces in rec cycling. Pedaling circles does not mean applying equal force to the pedal in all positions, it simply means smoothing the stabbing motion most people ride with from the outset.

Now like I said there are plenty of good reasons to ride clipless like for you, adding confidence to your riding. And I will concede that during a 100 mile ride, any level of improved efficiency will become noticeable and will be welcome; but for the rec riding weekend warrior there is not enough difference to supersede the need for people to be comfortable with their equipment above all else.

Perhaps it's important to note that I'm not against clipless pedals, I'm simply against misinformation. I have clipless pedals on my singlespeed (which I am too weak to ride most of the time) and am generally comfortable riding them in any terrain. Maybe next I'll jump over and rain on a thread about why global warming is a myth because January has been colder than average!


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

cpfitness said:


> I dont know why this efficiency discussion continues. If i want to be fast and efficient i would be on my road bike. Im trying to figure out what will serve me best on the technical stuff and tight twisty stuff. Where I ride we dont have this flowy fire roady stuff
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I would say it depends. If the technical stuff is so sketchy that you are scared to do it clipped in then use platforms. Once you feel comfortable, clipless works to help generate that little bit of extra power that might help you to clear more features.


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Have you actually done any reading on the research which has been done on cycling? While you have simplified the pedal stroke, I'm not going to argue that you have identified the major muscle groups in each segment pretty well I will point out there there is a lot more muscle overlap then you are implying. The upward stroke is not applying force to the pedal when you're pedaling properly, it is simply lifting the weight of the leg and foot. This means that no matter what pedal you are using you are capable of pedaling with a proper cycling movement. The hip flexors are much weaker and much more easily injured than the much larger muscle groups which are meant for body weight bearing and movement. Using the hip flexors as they are intended is a much more efficient way of pedaling than attempting to pull upward on a pedal.
> 
> The misunderstanding of the phrase "pedaling circles" is probably one of the most destructive forces in rec cycling. Pedaling circles does not mean applying equal force to the pedal in all positions, it simply means smoothing the stabbing motion most people ride with from the outset.
> 
> ...


I actually stated that my over simplification was in fact an over simplification. And yes, I've done reading, studied etc., but the best instruction I've received is from monster riders who sit on their bike tied in to a computer to analyze their efficiency and see that they have a near 100% efficient pedal stroke. I've seen my own pedaling efficiency increase greatly by isolating those muscles and working only on them. I work my hip flexors by doing single pedal strokes on my trainer where I actually do pull up to help get the pedal over the top to exaggerate the movement. On the bike outside, I agree that pedaling I'm not using any real force at this moment upward, it's the transition into the push from the quad at this point that gives sprinting speed, etc...
While I agree it's not applicable to the weekend warrior, I still say it's accurate that clipless pedals are more efficient. I wouldn't call anything I've said as misinformation as you accuse, but you're of course entitled to your opinion.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

dirtdan said:


> If you're using a proper pedal stroke, clipless pedals are extremely helpful if not mandatory if efficiency is what you're after.
> 
> If you're doing more stunty type of riding, or working on skills such as a true bunny hop or other ways to get your rear wheel off the ground without pulling up on your heels, flat pedals are very helpful.
> 
> They each have different qualities and neither one is better than the other.


This is almost exactly what I posted and I got railed for it. After reading yours though I think it would be more accurate to say that one is better for one type of riding and the other is better for other types, which is what I was trying to clarify. Depending on your goals there sometimes _is_ an optimum choice.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

zebrahum said:


> The misunderstanding of the phrase "pedaling circles" is probably one of the most destructive forces in rec cycling.
> 
> Perhaps it's important to note that I'm not against clipless pedals, I'm simply against misinformation.


Speaking of misinformation, "one of the most destructive forces in rec cycling" ? I mean I know it's not exactly accurate but I still think it can be a decent basic visual for a newbie, but I suppose since I've never picked up a book before it's probably common knowledge for most that it causes your knees to explode. :eekster:


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Here's some study I found, I wish I can find the one where the study shows the watts and difference on the 3 types of stroke/pedals. I'll do some more digging. I know it's there, I wish I had my iPad when I read that the first time, it would have been easy to just put it on my reading list

Some reading, but basically the same clipless more efficient? Yes, but...you need proper technique to draw it out. Now ask yourself, are you that person.

Bike and Body: Clipless versus platform pedals

Effects of pedal type and pull-up action du... [Int J Sports Med. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

BetterRide Mountain Bike Skills Tips
Flats vs. Clipless: Please prove me wrong & why I won
Effect of pedaling technique on mechanical effectiveness and efficiency in cyclists. - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks mimi, that's what I was looking for!


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

I'll just leave this here and be on my way:

Which Muscles are Really Used During the Pedal Stroke? | Mountain Bike Training Programs


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

cpfitness said:


> I dont know why this efficiency discussion continues. If i want to be fast and efficient i would be on my road bike. Im trying to figure out what will serve me best on the technical stuff and tight twisty stuff. Where I ride we dont have this flowy fire roady stuff
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I just want to acknowledge your much improve attitude, especially in such a potential blood boiling topic. That's just awesome, you are on point.

That said, well, it's a very difficult topic to discuss without throwing out the term efficiency.

I said a few times before, noobs look at clipless pedals as a "right of passage", something that proves they belong, and have moved up in the world of cycling. I doubt that they know or care about efficiency, I know that they are crapping in the pants half the time riding over tech sections.

They know that they can now pull up on the pedal, the sensation is there, there's no denying but does the sensation translates to more efficiency? NO, unless you are grunting up the steep climb on a big gear SS.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

zebrahum said:


> The misunderstanding of the phrase "pedaling circles" is probably one of the most destructive forces in rec cycling. Pedaling circles does not mean applying equal force to the pedal in all positions, it simply means smoothing the stabbing motion most people ride with from the outset.
> 
> Now like I said there are plenty of good reasons to ride clipless like for you, adding confidence to your riding. And I will concede that during a 100 mile ride, any level of improved efficiency will become noticeable and will be welcome; but for the rec riding weekend warrior there is not enough difference to supersede the need for people to be comfortable with their equipment above all else.


Agree:thumbsup:

I'm not against clipless either as the matter of fact, sometime I'd ride clipless exclusively for a few months before going to flats, it just depends on my mood. It's not really dictate by the trail I'm riding. I ride tech climb and descend with clipless, but riding with flats brings fresh feeling while improving my riding as well.

One of my favorite group ride would be the noobs ride, I usually go with flats. The usual recommendation from noobs on the pedals, they'd suggestion that I should switch to clipless to improve my climbing ability, and efficiency. Oh yeah? How so?


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## jayseakay (Nov 25, 2012)

To the OP. 

Play around with both and see what you prefer. 

That's the best answer someone can give you. 

You've seen how divided people are on the issue and that's because...at the end of the day...efficiency depends on more than your pedal.


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## uneek78 (Dec 10, 2012)

mattnmtns said:


> Sorry. Didn't mean to imply that you are. Just it's in the beginner forum and it seems some people are very apt to suggest clippless to people just starting out on mountain bikes.
> 
> I think you just answered your on question though. Ride flats if you think you will be more comfortable with them. Not sure where you ride. I encounter enough rock gardens, drops, jumps, and chunky boulders where I am more comfortable with flats. There is also plenty of flowy xc style trails or fire roads where clipless would be hard to argue. I guess I am lazy though. For me flats are more flexible. I can to the technical or the flow and the same pedal works for me. Just comes down to what you like.


I'm with you. Lots of people do suggest clipless too beginners such as myself. Which I now don't see as the method for a beginner. I've been riding since November and I was told "clipless" is a no brainer. Well, I didn't enjoy all the falling and cuts from my first day of clipless. Video for proof: Clipless Pedals = CRASH, FALL, OUCH.....ugh.... - YouTube

Any who, it's about 70 days later and I'm doing much better and I rarely fall now. Truthfully though, I think I enjoyed the flats better for a few reasons: comfort in putting my foot down on turns and being able to prevent myself from falling when needing to bail quickly. The only thing I do like about clipless is that my foot never slips when doing a quick steep incline or when doing some sort of jump. Sorry if I don't know all the lingo. I'm a beginner with experience. Lol! Any who, the only reason I'm not going back to flats now is because I payed way too much money for these crank brother candy pedals and shoes and I'm gonna ride the hell outta them before I switch to flats one day.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Well, I went out for a ride on platforms and I must say, I can see merits to both. Incidentally it was my first ride out on a brand new build so I'm sure a lot of the improvements in my riding were from a better geometry and mentally trusting the frame that I had underneath me. There were pros and cons to both. There were times I was able to put my foot down into some corners and have a bit more trust. There were some rocky areas that i turned into a wuss on and took a leg off but still coasted through the trouble surprisingly easy. However, when you take a foot off and your not clipped in, you can't keep the pedals in the proper position so then I was banging around the other side. Then I took the bike off of a small jump. went back to hit it again and hit the edge of a rock that I couldn't see as it was hidden in the snow, it sent me off line right as I hit the jump. I landed, hit the brakes hard and put my leg out to try to steady myself. my foot slid on the ground then caught something and I felt my knee twist. The knee that already doesn't have an ACL in it. So now this morning I have a nice sprained knee I'm dealing with! Had I been clipped in, I'm not sure that I would have safely landed the jump, I may have bit it pretty hard on the frozen ground. In the end, I'm going to keep riding some with the platforms, but I can ultimately see myself going back to clipless at some point.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

cpfitness said:


> Then I took the bike off of a small jump. went back to hit it again and hit the edge of a rock that I couldn't see as it was hidden in the snow, it sent me off line right as I hit the jump. I landed, hit the brakes hard and put my leg out to try to steady myself. my foot slid on the ground then caught something and I felt my knee twist. The knee that already doesn't have an ACL in it. So now this morning I have a nice sprained knee I'm dealing with! Had I been clipped in, I'm not sure that I would have safely landed the jump, I may have bit it pretty hard on the frozen ground.


I would put my money on you being better off right now had you not been able to put your foot down to get sprained. As a general rule, putting a foot down to catch yourself while still moving with any speed is asking for heaps of trouble.

I gotta ask: what were you thinking taking jumps in snow deep enough to cover the rocks?


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## sjhiker (Apr 25, 2008)

There's all sorts of anecdotes going both ways. I've torn my shin up on the pins on a platform, but it did give me peace of mind to put my foot down in an "oh **** moment". On the other hand, clipless gave *me* a better surface to press my foot against due to the hard sole of the shoe. (note that my toes used to cramp when on platforms on a long, 20mi+, ride)

As a total noob, when you're trying to learn handling, pedaling, braking, shifting, climbing, turning, different surfaces etc... reducing the number of things you have to learn at one time, in this case *unclipping*, is not a bad idea.

So my $.02, is that for a noob, stick with platforms to start with until you get a solid grasp of the basics, then introduce another variable. If you're not good at handling tough surfaces (sand, loose gravel, chunk) worrying about unclipping if you slip is only going to make you more nervous, and cause you to have poor form.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

kapusta said:


> I would put my money on you being better off right now had you not been able to put your foot down to get sprained. As a general rule, putting a foot down to catch yourself while still moving with any speed is asking for heaps of trouble.
> 
> I gotta ask: what were you thinking taking jumps in snow deep enough to cover the rocks?


Snow wasn't that deep, only about an inch or so and the jump was pretty small, probably doesn't even deserve to be called a jump! As for being better off? tough to say, I really think I would have gone down pretty hard and on that frozen ground, who knows what woulda happened.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

one of the challenges is that all the trails I have access to are pretty darn technical. the one beginner trail is quite short and certainly gets a bit boring fast. At this stage I really would love some nice flowy type stuff to simply work on my handling and turning skills but it just doesn't exist near me.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Highbridge Park?

Check out Cunningham Park. It feels a bit like being in a Corona commercial to me - I'm in a scrap of woods, surrounded by Queens.

There's more non-technical trails further out on Long Island, and there are some options along Metro North as well, but I never went to anything more than once. I had already left New York before the Wolfe's Pond trails were opened. So Highbridge and Cunningham were my main spots.

Mountain biking is part of why I left New York.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Highbridge Park?
> 
> Check out Cunningham Park. It feels a bit like being in a Corona commercial to me - I'm in a scrap of woods, surrounded by Queens.
> 
> ...


I'll try cunningham, I've heard it's pretty good. Highbridge got destroyed by sandy and I dont think it's very high priority getting it cleaned up. Sprain Ridge is where I've been riding and I've still got stuff to learn about the trails there. I live in spanish harlem so sprain and Graham are easy to get to, cunningham is probably a royal pain in the ass to get to since I don't have a car. I know there is stuff out in long island but it seems to be WAAAYYYYY out there. I'll check some of that stuff out in the warm weather months


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I may have ridden Sprain, actually. Not sure.... I forget what my one Metro North foray was.

Cunningham's actually not that hard to access. You take one of the subways to the end of the line, then ride for another mile and a half or so. It takes a while, but I preferred it to Highbridge, which ramped up from boring to gut check way too fast.


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## Miljack (Nov 8, 2010)

Clipless, commit, practice, you'll love them!


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## smellurfingers (Aug 18, 2012)

evasive said:


> cpfitness: if I'd come across this thread earlier, I'd have just recommended going with what you know, since you're already comfortable with clipless pedals, and flat pedals have their own learning curve, which will add one more thing for your mind to keep track of in your transition to mountain biking. Since you've bought the flats already, you'll learn another skill and you can choose for yourself which you prefer. Make sure you give them at least a month before deciding.
> 
> Much of this is already covered, so I'll just add a couple random observations: as far as the conventional wisdom of clipless or XC; flats for DH - plenty of WC level downhill racers ride clipped in (e.g. Gwin, Hart). In fact, flat riders are still probably in the minority in the top 10, enough that it's not unusual to hear Rob Warner point out a rider on them (e.g. Hill, Bryceland). On the other hand, I'd guess most of not all freeriders/big mountain riders are on flat pedals. Then there are a couple disciplines where you absolutely have to be on flats: slopestyle and dirt jump. Hard to do a superman when you're clipped in...
> 
> ...


Many WC DH riders are using clipless in competition, but still train and ride on flats. They clip in because a pedal slip due to slip a technique can be the difference between a podium and mid pack finish. Everyone has the occasional technique fart. If you're hitting heavy downhill rock gardens at speeds greater than 20 MPH there would be an advantage to being clipped in. I wouldn't consider this an inditement on flats.

I find that flats actually improve technique. In order to keep your feet planted over technical sections you have to have your heels low, otherwise your feet will be moving around on your pedals. Having your heels low actually loosens up your lower body, which really smooths out the trail and increases your ability to ride fast and smooth. Using Clipless as a crutch for bad technique will help keep your feet on the pedals, but you aren't improving as a rider.


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## jball1125 (Feb 8, 2013)

I hate the feeling of being clipped in, Im a newb though so no real advice to offer.


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## sjbyer (Jan 31, 2013)

Even as a beginner, I knew I would appreciate clipless. I got myself a pair and can't switch them out for platforms for anything. 

You can try some out some used ones on eBay first...


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## efox (Jan 31, 2013)

Thanks for all the info guys! I was trying to figure out which way to go myself. Now I know but I'm not telling


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

efox said:


> Thanks for all the info guys! I was trying to figure out which way to go myself. Now I know but I'm not telling


Seriously? I read through all these posts, and then this? You have got to be kidding! BTW, Flats for me all the way, but to each their own. Choice and options is a good thing. Personally I think pointing beginners to clips is a mistake (I know the history of why they are called clipLESS, but I refuse to carry on the tradition, they are not without clips, they ARE clips, call them what they are - LOL).

For me: Flats + 5.10's = Fun & Less Injuries = More ride time


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

efox said:


> Thanks for all the info guys! I was trying to figure out which way to go myself. Now I know but I'm not telling


Nice first post... Thanks for the help guys, you helped me but I am not going to tell you what I decided, LOL. You know there are probably other beginners on here that may be interested in knowing what you decided (hopefully it was flats).


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Given how contentious the subject can be, I think efox is probably right to keep his mouth shut. You devoted two posts to berating him without him giving an opinion.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Given how contentious the subject can be, I think efox is probably right to keep his mouth shut. You devoted two posts to berating him without him giving an opinion.


I assume you are directing this at me. I appologize for the duplicate posts, mtbr gave me an error on the first one and I thought it was lost, so I posted again. Sorry about that.

You can clearly see in my first post that I indeed did give an opinion, I ride flats:



mtbdennis said:


> ...For me: Flats + 5.10's = Fun & Less Injuries = More ride time ...


And beginers should not be on clipless:



mtbdennis said:


> ...Personally I think pointing beginners to clips is a mistake...


Carry on...


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

mtbdennis, I meant without efox stating his opinion.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

jesus christ guys, can't you see that he was making a joke about how retarded people get about clipless vs flats??? lol


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## efox (Jan 31, 2013)

Thanks, I deserved that.

I was all set to go out and get some clips, but this thread helped me decide to stick with flats. I've also found I can get pretty good push through about 260 deg. of the rotation. Being a cheapskate, it was easy for me to accept that as good enough, especially since I ride only for fun and exercise.

Switching gears, anyone know a good thread with current info on tires?


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Tires are almost as bad.  Also, there's a whole forum dedicated to the topic.

If you're not competing and you ride off-road, 2.3" tires with a full knob and a 60 or 120 tpi casing and call it a day.  Tread pattern isn't as important as we all want it to be, but knob size does matter quite a lot. Rubber compound matters too, but there's no consistency in how anyone reports it.


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## efox (Jan 31, 2013)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Tires are almost as bad.  Also, there's a whole forum dedicated to the topic.
> 
> If you're not competing and you ride off-road, 2.3" tires with a full knob and a 60 or 120 tpi casing and call it a day.  Tread pattern isn't as important as we all want it to be, but knob size does matter quite a lot. Rubber compound matters too, but there's no consistency in how anyone reports it.


Thanks, Andrew. I've read more tire threads than I ever wanted to without any notable success. Now I can walk into a bike shop and act like I know what I'm looking for. OR, you could have set me up for a good laughing-at! Only one way to find out...


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

efox said:


> Thanks, Andrew. I've read more tire threads than I ever wanted to without any notable success. Now I can walk into a bike shop and act like I know what I'm looking for. OR, you could have set me up for a good laughing-at! Only one way to find out...


You could always use the shop to help you find what would be good for you instead of acting like you know what you're looking for. Your shop will probably stock tires that people in the area buy which is usually a good indication of what people are using and if people are using it then it's probably decent for your area. Talk to someone, tell them where you ride and what you ride or what you're looking for in a tire and they'll probably point you toward something appropriate.

The fastest way to get laughed at in a bike shop is to talk a lot about something you don't understand. See what they have, see what they recommend, and ask questions if you have them. If your shop is any good they'll take care of you.


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## millertj1 (Jan 3, 2013)

I am fairly new to mountain biking and went with clipless pedals because that they are what I was used to from my road biking. After a swollen left elbow, several bruises on my left leg and one ridiculous pic taken by my buddy of me stuck looking like a turtle flipped over on its back...I backed my cleat tension way off. I am riding Shimano XT pedals and have the tension only 3 click from the easiest setting. I am able to bail if need be/forced to (thankfully my comfort level is increasing and I don't have to bail very often) and I like the security of being clipped in. If you continue to ride clipless just back off the tension - if at all possible.


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## dmtnt (Dec 18, 2012)

I hit the local trail for the very first time with clipless pedals a few weeks ago and regretted it, even though I had been riding clipless around my neighborhood for over a month and thought I was comfortable. I went with a buddy who has years of experience and even he said I should have started with flats. As he was watching me struggle through some technical parts, he could tell I was spending too much time worrying about whether or not to clip out. In the future, I'd love to get confident enough to go back to clipless but I just got a set of Shimano Saint flats and plan to try the trails again this weekend.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

dmtnt said:


> I hit the local trail for the very first time with clipless pedals a few weeks ago and regretted it, even though I had been riding clipless around my neighborhood for over a month and thought I was comfortable. I went with a buddy who has years of experience and even he said I should have started with flats. As he was watching me struggle through some technical parts, he could tell I was spending too much time worrying about whether or not to clip out. In the future, I'd love to get confident enough to go back to clipless but I just got a set of Shimano Saint flats and plan to try the trails again this weekend.


Just an FYI, just like with clipless the pedals are only half the equation. You need to get a pair of shoes that are designed to work with flats, it really does make that much of a difference. Too many people try flat pedals with regular tennis shoes or whatever and do not like it because their feet slip off / move around too much. I highly recommend getting a good pair of sticky rubber shoes (I use the 5.10 Impact Low's -- Five Ten Impact 2 Low Shoe > Apparel > Shoes and Footwear > Mountain Bike Shoes | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop). Once you experience Flats (with good pins) and a good pair of sticky rubber shoes you will see the difference. I tried two years ago and have never once thought, geez these are holding me back I really should put those clips back on my bike. Good luck and enjoy!


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## dmtnt (Dec 18, 2012)

mtbdennis said:


> Just an FYI, just like with clipless the pedals are only half the equation.


Thanks, forgot to mention that on the wonderful advice from this forum, I ordered the very same 5.10's from Jenson, they got here a few days ago.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

dmtnt said:


> Thanks, forgot to mention that on the wonderful advice from this forum, I ordered the very same 5.10's from Jenson, they got here a few days ago.


Awesome! I think you will enjoy. Mine are about worn out and about to pull the trigger on those from Jenson to replace my old ones  They have held up very well to two years of abuse. I have done a bunch of HAB with them, and lots of miles. I have been surprised how well the rubber has held up to those pins. I had expected the rubber to be chewed up from the pins, but nope, still holding strong. I am in AZ and I think the heat has dried out the rubber a little and they do not grip quite as well as they did when they were new, but then again I am probably just looking for a reason to get some new ones  Enjoy your setup, you got good stuff.


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## The-Ox (Apr 23, 2012)

Both! Start with flats (with five/ten shoes) to learn the basics. Switch to clipless to get more performance. If you are going on a more hairy adventure on new terrain...switch back to flats. Learn the new terrain and back to clipless to max out performance.


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## Gouda Cheez (Feb 18, 2013)

Great thread for a n00b like me to read.


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## Kos F (Feb 20, 2013)

Go clipless and get technical!


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

Go FLATS and get technical!


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## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

ROFLMAO at some of the answers, comments, and arguments.

Junk the pedals and learn to walk ... And don't wear those 5.10 shoes some like to rave about.

Beginner section ... Expert section ... It's a freak'n bicycle, and it's supposed to be about safely having a good time.
Professional racers and idiot daredevils need not apply :devil:

*It's a freak'n bicycle*

*Have Fun !!! *


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

^^^^ ftw


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Pins, flats and shoes can be put together in several ways depending on the trail. You can stick fine with trailrunners or tennis shoes with the knobby pins on some Wellgo or Azonic pedals. You can use shorter, 3mm small diameter pins with the edges rounded for those shoes and not tear up the bottoms. You can add or remove pins as needed.
If you tune the setup and ride with your heels low you can control the stick.
Speed and jumps and DH says tune with higher pins and 5.10s.

These Flat irons come with the "fat pins" you see and a set of set screw type small diameter pins for 5.10s.


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## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

^^^ Remove fun :devil:


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

eb1888 said:


> View attachment 773818
> Pins, flats and shoes can be put together in several ways depending on the trail. You can stick fine with trailrunners or tennis shoes with the knobby pins on some Wellgo or Azonic pedals. You can use shorter, 3mm small diameter pins with the edges rounded for those shoes and not tear up the bottoms. You can add or remove pins as needed.
> If you tune the setup and ride with your heels low you can control the stick.
> Speed and jumps and DH says tune with higher pins and 5.10s.


Thanks a lot for posting that picture. I was plenty happy with my current pedals (Diety Decoy's) until I saw that picture. Now I must have them! Love how thin they are!


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## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

mtbdennis said:


> Thanks a lot for posting that picture. I was plenty happy with my current pedals (Diety Decoy's) until I saw that picture. Now I must have them! Love how thin they are!











I rode BMX on these ... You people are spoiled :devil:


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## Tan&Green (Feb 25, 2013)

bikeabuser said:


> ROFLMAO at some of the answers, comments, and arguments.
> 
> Junk the pedals and learn to walk ... And don't wear those 5.10 shoes some like to rave about.
> 
> ...


Ain't that the truff!!!!! LOL!!!!


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## Slatham (Mar 2, 2013)

I have opted for the middle of the road. Ive been using Power Grips for over 15 years. I have found them to be a solid option for those who desire more control than flats provide and less "constraint" than clipless. Its what I cut my teeth on and have never felt a need to "graduate" to clipless. To each their own, but definitely give then a look if you are on the fence.


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## Tanager (Mar 3, 2013)

Threads like this, as painful as they may be for the vets, are mother's milk to a relative noob like me. I've been riding road for a long time, but I've had only sporadic forays into mountain biking here and there. Lots of great info here, and it's helped me get over the inevitable "I don't want to look like a noob" insecurities that can make one set aside common sense, not to mention make riding less enjoyable. I'm awaiting some newly ordered flats, going to use them to try out some trails I'd be nervous about trying otherwise (which is most anything remotely technical, to be honest). So thanks to all the longtime posters who've shared a lot of good info on this thread.


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## jayseakay (Nov 25, 2012)

Tanager said:


> Threads like this, as painful as they may be for the vets, are mother's milk to a relative noob like me. I've been riding road for a long time, but I've had only sporadic forays into mountain biking here and there. Lots of great info here, and it's helped me get over the inevitable "I don't want to look like a noob" insecurities that can make one set aside common sense, not to mention make riding less enjoyable. I'm awaiting some newly ordered flats, going to use them to try out some trails I'd be nervous about trying otherwise (which is most anything remotely technical, to be honest). So thanks to all the longtime posters who've shared a lot of good info on this thread.


Don't ever let someone make you feel like a noob just because you aren't riding what most people might be or whatever. Just ride what you like and feel comfortable with.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

jayseakay said:


> Don't ever let someone make you feel like a noob just because you aren't riding what most people might be or whatever. Just ride what you like and feel comfortable with.


+1+

No matter what you think about any piece of equipment remember that there's someone out there who will rip your legs off on their fully rigid 80's Bridgestone with toe clips. Any person who tries to tell you that one type of bike or pedal or wheel size or whatever is the only way to go knows nothing about how to actually ride a bike.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> +1+
> 
> No matter what you think about any piece of equipment remember that there's someone out there who will rip your legs off on their fully rigid 80's Bridgestone with toe clips. Any person who tries to tell you that one type of bike or pedal or wheel size or whatever is the only way to go knows nothing about how to actually ride a bike.


+++1 I could not agree with you more


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## Nate3510 (May 21, 2009)

zebrahum said:


> +1+
> 
> No matter what you think about any piece of equipment remember that there's someone out there who will rip your legs off on their fully rigid 80's Bridgestone with toe clips. Any person who tries to tell you that one type of bike or pedal or wheel size or whatever is the only way to go knows nothing about how to actually ride a bike.


+++++1 Amen!!!!


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

zebrahum said:


> +1+
> 
> No matter what you think about any piece of equipment remember that there's someone out there who will rip your legs off on their fully rigid 80's Bridgestone with toe clips. Any person who tries to tell you that one type of bike or pedal or wheel size or whatever is the only way to go knows nothing about how to actually ride a bike.


Yet again another +1:thumbsup:



jayseakay said:


> Don't ever let someone make you feel like a noob just because you aren't riding what most people might be or whatever. Just ride what you like and feel comfortable with.


It's so true, unfortunately from my experience this kind of behavior mostly comes from noobs who switch to clipless. Almost 100% of my Noob's ride I'd take the flat pedals, and never fail each ride I'd get at least one who would approach me and try to tell me to switch to clipless because they are "Sooo much better", more efficient and so on. Similar thing was said about 29er:madman:

I remember the first time I noticed a rider riding flats on his trail bike, I thought what does he knows that I didn't. Sure enough it was the 5.10

Ride whatever you want again for the hundredth time an there's no difference in efficiency between clipless and platform with sticky shoes, as long as you have a half way decent pedaling stroke.


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## Hogdog (Aug 12, 2012)

You can only make an informed decision if you've used both. It's amazing the amount of people who talk like they know what they're talking about but have only ever ridden flats.


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## HeveW8 (Feb 25, 2013)

I'll just leave this here:

bikejames xxx/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/]The Flat Pedal Revolution Manifesto: How to Improve Your Riding With Flat Pedals | Mountain Bike Training Programs


cant post links so the x's are . calm of course


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

bikejames got beat up by a pair of clipless pedals when he was a kid.


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## tangaroo (Jul 17, 2012)

Flats are fun. Clipless are fun. Going fast is fun. Jumping is fun. Riding bikes is fun. To each his own. I ride both, but prefer clipless because I said so.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Yeah, that's one guy's opinion. I've read most of that, and it's really just many of the most common theories you see bounced around stated as fact. He is just one more person that feels that since something worked better for him, it must be that way for everyone. There is nothing new or insightful in that article.


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## goalie (Feb 17, 2008)

I've done and liked both. Am doing the Barn Burner 104 in Flagstaff this year, and decided that some SPD shoes and pedals (AM45 shoes and PD-M647 pedals) are the way to go for something that long.

I like that I can ride those pedals with those shoes and not be clipped in if it's sketchy or I am trying to get back on the bike uphill etc...


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## bigfruits (Mar 21, 2011)

Hogdog said:


> You can only make an informed decision if you've used both. It's amazing the amount of people who talk like they know what they're talking about but have only ever ridden flats.


im surprised after reading threads on MTBR the amount of people who have never tried flats! not saying they are posting on this thread (shame if they are). i would always recommend a beginner start with flats.


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## Hogdog (Aug 12, 2012)

Surely everyone learned to ride a bike on flats?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Hogdog said:


> You can only make an informed decision if you've used both. It's amazing the amount of people who talk like they know what they're talking about but have only ever ridden flats.


This is the problem I have with Mr. Bjames, he preaches the virtues of flat pedals as if it were gospel yet it seems he has never really given clipless a go. I have read some of his stuff and a lot of what he advocates is solid, time proven (though not revolutionary) advice but he just can't seem to let go of his anger towards clipless pedals. In one sentence he'll say he has nothing against them and in the next he will infer that they are pure evil.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Both bikejames and Rivendell make exceptions for racing cyclists; Rivendell says something about "racer-like." I think the bikejames observation, something you can see in people's posts (especially the more rabid clipless advocates!) is that many mountain bikers never learn to manipulate their bikes very well because they can pull up on their clipless pedals, and never learn to pedal that well because clipless pedals will guide a rider's foot in a circle, whether his technique is good or not.

I think a lot of people go to clipless pedals too early, regardless of which system they end up on most of the time long-term. Certainly I did. I'm sure I've said this on other page - this thread is going to monster lengths - but I'm not sure if the big, pinned, concave-surfaced flat pedals that people who ride them on purpose choose were even available when I was in college, and learning to ride mountain bikes. So it was caged pedals that aren't that stable, caged pedals with toe clips, or clipless. Not very hard to make a blanket statement like "clipless are better" with that as a basis for comparison.

My attitude is that it's to everyone's benefit to learn both, and at that point, I don't need to tell them (nor do I presume to be able to predict) what to choose.


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## HeveW8 (Feb 25, 2013)

AndrwSwitch said:


> My attitude is that it's to everyone's benefit to learn both, and at that point, I don't need to tell them (nor do I presume to be able to predict) what to choose.


That's kind of how I feel. Being Very new to all this and having used cages on a road bike when I wasnt quite old enough to drive... then clipless on a road bike, I just assumed clipless was the way to go. But as I'm learning about the actual skill necessary to maneuver a bike around a trail, I want to build those skills on platforms first.

As a Very newbie example... doing a bunny hop is something I want to master, and it has to be SO much easier with your feet attached to the pedals, but the challenge of figuring it out on my own is attractive to me.

as a point to the article I posted- the thing that stuck out the most to me was the data related to pedaling, esp in re to "pedaling in a circle"... I posted the article for that very reason, as several people made reference to that idea in their posts.


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## jayseakay (Nov 25, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I think a lot of people go to clipless pedals too early, regardless of which system they end up on most of the time long-term. Certainly I did. I'm sure I've said this on other page - this thread is going to monster lengths - but I'm not sure if the big, pinned, concave-surfaced flat pedals that people who ride them on purpose choose were even available when I was in college, and learning to ride mountain bikes. So it was caged pedals that aren't that stable, caged pedals with toe clips, or clipless. Not very hard to make a blanket statement like "clipless are better" with that as a basis for comparison.


This is a good point. When I was learning I had the cheapest, crappiest pair of flat pedals ever. They were horrible. I also rode in tennis shoes. Naturally the switch to clipless (while painful for a couple of rides) was like night and day to what I started with. It hurt trying to figure it out at first yeah...but compared to the crap I was riding on before it was a 100 times better. If I had known of really good flat pedals and better shoes I might have tried that first.


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## anthonyk (Feb 15, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I think the bikejames observation, something you can see in people's posts (especially the more rabid clipless advocates!) is that many mountain bikers never learn to manipulate their bikes very well because they can pull up on their clipless pedals, and never learn to pedal that well because clipless pedals will guide a rider's foot in a circle, whether his technique is good or not.


I never really understood this viewpoint (not yours, AndrwSwitch, but the one you're talking about). Both pedal systems offer unique possibilities for manipulating your bike, and there's nothing wrong with giving a quick pull up on clipless pedals to clear small obstacles or move the back of the bike around. It's almost like some folks believe that your development as a mountain biker will forever be stunted because clipless pedals let you "cheat." Whether I'm on flats on a trials bike, or clipless on the trail, I'll use whatever options are available with each pedal system.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

anthonyk said:


> I never really understood this viewpoint (not yours, AndrwSwitch, but the one you're talking about). Both pedal systems offer unique possibilities for manipulating your bike, and there's nothing wrong with giving a quick pull up on clipless pedals to clear small obstacles or move the back of the bike around. It's almost like some folks believe that your development as a mountain biker will forever be stunted because clipless pedals let you "cheat." Whether I'm on flats on a trials bike, or clipless on the trail, I'll use whatever options are available with each pedal system.


LOL. It's my viewpoint too.

I went from toe clips to clipless back when I was in college. I did all sorts of things with pulling up on the pedals. I also preloaded my suspension. I could negotiate trails okay, but I was relying on a lot of upper body strength and leg muscles that aren't the Prime Movers.

When I started racing, one of the things I noticed really fast was that the fast guys flow over everything in their path with very little apparent effort or energy expenditure. I had to notice it fast because they weren't doing it near me anymore after the first lap... So I thought about how I was negotiating the same obstacles, did some reading, and resolved to learn to bunny hop, manual and wheelie, on flat pedals.

I feel like I drive things much more from my core and legs now. I do prefer clipless pedals and I'd be lying if I didn't say that I do things better on clipless pedals - I do still cheat, some, and I don't need to put a lot of effort into staying attached to the bike, which I prefer.

Similar to drilling cadence and then letting selected cadence fall where it may, I'm comfortable with drilling on the correct way to do a lot of these skills and then doing them how I do them. I feel I've seen a big improvement. I feel I work a lot less hard at handling my bike. As a side benefit, I don't have to do nearly as much to prepare for an obstacle, so I don't lose as much speed in technical sections, especially on trails I don't know.

If you ride trials, I imagine you already do all of this stuff a lot better than me. And, I imagine that whatever "cheating" you self-select on clipless is just spending less effort, rather than practicing a slow and inefficient way to do things. So like I said earlier - I'm not that interested in which pedals you choose, I'm just advocating on both.

I also don't think that having learned on clipless first has stunted my development (or would stunt someone else's) in particular. After all, I was able to just go back and practice on flats for a while. And, I think I came into that period with a lot more comfort and confidence on my bike - I don't think that what I learned before bolting on the flats was useless or counterproductive. At least, not mostly. (So I guess I don't think people can be forever stunted by anything they do on a bike, unless it's breaking a vertebra or something.)

One might compare a clipless-dependent technique to a skiing technique requiring pivoting and skidding, vs. one that's all about edge control and carving. Pivoting and skidding can both be good tools for a strong skier, but they're a terrible thing to base one's technique on.


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## Tanager (Mar 3, 2013)

HeveW8 said:


> That's kind of how I feel. Being Very new to all this and having used cages on a road bike when I wasnt quite old enough to drive... then clipless on a road bike, I just assumed clipless was the way to go. But as I'm learning about the actual skill necessary to maneuver a bike around a trail, I want to build those skills on platforms first.


You and me both, brother. I went clipless first (and defied common sense in more ways than I'm yet prepared to share here), and one broken wrist/surgery/metal plate and screws/7 weeks off my bike later, I've got a pair of Azonics due to arrive today. (I'm back on the bike, btw, but sticking to stuff I'm capable of handling, nothing even *remotely* technical until I get those flats on. Once burned, twice shy, and all that.)

It's experiences like this that make me appreciate just how much his mountain biking background likely contributed to someone like Peter Sagan's mad handling skills.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

to new riders take a look at trials riders. They are doing amazing feats, climbing boulders etc all on flats. 

Flats definitely are used by advanced riders. I personally am more interestednin trials type riding over racing so practice a lot with flats.


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## Burt4x4 (Feb 21, 2013)

goodmojo said:


> to new riders take a look at trials riders. They are doing amazing feats, climbing boulders etc all on flats.
> 
> Flats definitely are used by advanced riders. I personally am more interestednin trials type riding over racing so practice a lot with flats.


I'll chime in from a noob's point of view..well I use to ride 15+yrs ago..then was flats "beartraps" with toeclips loosely straped...now I start a-new era for me on pinned platforms that stick to my shoe... love it.
I like sliding around corners and the ability to drag a foot if I want..or even ride to the market and pick up a 12er..I just like the freedom of the platform pedel...any pair of shoes I own will work


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## anthonyk (Feb 15, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> LOL. It's my viewpoint too.


Ha, touché.  I see what you're saying, and I'm probably just caught up with my objection to the term "cheating." It makes it sound like pulling up on the pedals isn't part of proper mountain biking technique. It's a really useful skill to have, but like you said, it shouldn't be the only thing you know how to do. All riders (new and experienced) ought to commit to learning good techniques, whatever pedals they're riding. Flats are a good tool to help, but aren't critical. (Much like riding rigid can help you learn to flow over obstacles, but you can learn that fully suspended, too.)


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

anthonyk said:


> Ha, touché.  I see what you're saying, and I'm probably just caught up with my objection to the term "cheating." It makes it sound like pulling up on the pedals isn't part of proper mountain biking technique.


I agree.

If clipless is "cheating" then so are gears, suspension forks, dropper posts, tubeless tires, handlebars, etc. For whatever reason a lot of people are extremely opinionated and righteous on this issue but really they are just another tool that some riders choose to use to their advantage. Riding a bike with suspension is a lot different than riding a ridged frame and it requires a different riding style to take full advantage of it, yet I never seem to hear anyone saying that it is "cheating" or that it creates "bad habits".

For most of my adult life I have ridden with clips and straps and then clipless pedals until feet issues forced me onto flats about 7 or 8 years ago. It was different, and I felt I didn't have quite the same power on the hills as I did with clipless but I experienced none of the dreaded "bad habits" that I've been warned about here. Even with crappy plastic pedals that had no pins and a ridged frame and fork my feet stayed firmly planted on the very rough and rocky AZ. trails on my 1st ride with them, and I didn't seem to need to un-learn any of the "bad habits" I'd developed from riding clipless. If anything I would say that clipless can help form good habits.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Actually, I think people also form bad habits riding with gears and suspension.

I still use them. I like being able to choose my gear ratio and and there's a certain point where I just can't be loose enough to absorb all the rattling.

But I think we've all seen people who insist on shifting for every little grade reversal, and people who sit their bikes like corpses and plow into everything.

Just as it's instructive for those of us on clipless to get some practice time on flats, I think that it's instructive for people to get some practice time off-road without suspension, without gears, and even on skinny little racing slicks. Not all at once, probably.  I think a lot of people would be surprised at what they can still do on a rigid, singlespeed, or road bike, and I think it's also good for an appreciation of how much bigger the handling envelope is on a mountain bike, and how much more stable and forgiving mountain bikes are. Taking away some equipment capability can also point out spots where one is overly reliant on the equipment, and maybe point out some spots where one is even doing something self-defeating.

tl;dr - ride more, different, maybe even inappropriate bikes off-road, get to be a faster, smoother mountain biker.


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## tangaroo (Jul 17, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Actually, I think people also form bad habits riding with gears and suspension.
> 
> I still use them. I like being able to choose my gear ratio and and there's a certain point where I just can't be loose enough to absorb all the rattling.
> 
> ...


I coudn't agree more with you... I have friends have who give me crap for riding singlespeed, and I have friends who try and convince me FS is the only way to go. I actually met these guys at the top of a descent, both had 6" travel full suspension bikes, with me on my steel hardtail. When I saw them at the bottom 3-4 minutes after I got there they were like "dude are you rattled, how do you ride a hardtail that fast". I just said I'm working on picking the smoothest lines, rather than the suspension plowing over everything. For some reason they just shook their heads...


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

"Skillz, yo."

"Everybody else is getting more travel. I'm just getting more rad."


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Actually, I think people also form bad habits riding with gears and suspension.


Agreed. I'm a cup half full kind of guy though and believe there are also lots of riders (beginners included) who strive to improve their technique and use gears and suspension to their advantage, which in turn can make them faster (if that's what they want) and enhance the ride experience.

I'm not trying to be contrary, I agree with much of what you post and think you contribute a lot to this forum, your suggestion to ride inappropriate bikes sometimes to improve your form is a great example. I'm only trying to counterpoint the claim that things like pedals, suspension and gears will undoubtedly cause bad habits- or good ones.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Well, I like to think that I form efficiencies and not bad habits by riding bikes with a bit more tech to help me out.  I did say right in the post that I use suspension and gears myself.


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