# 26 or 29



## managedenemy (Dec 7, 2009)

Sence 29er Downhill bikes have been made would yall switch from 26 to do yalls thing?


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## Zanetti (Sep 18, 2005)

Why would anyone in their right mind increase rotational inertia and unsprung weight?


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

i think most will stay with a 26 inch for DH...great all around bike


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## Tim F. (May 22, 2006)

Trollin for 29er insults, or are you serious. If your serious, most DHers would stick to 26, although current DHers with 29er XC/AM might give it a go. Also, current 29ers XC/AM who have an interest in more travel would also be interested.


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## Matt 891 (Apr 23, 2007)

29 inch wheels are a crutch for riders with sub-par skills

Ohhhhh, look at the rooty, rocky trail I just rode through because I have monster truck sized wheels!!


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## Uncle Six Pack (Aug 29, 2004)

managedenemy said:


> Sence 29er Downhill bikes have been made would yall switch from 26 to do yalls thing?


no:nonod: :nonod:


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

Matt 891 said:


> 29 inch wheels are a crutch for riders with sub-par skills
> 
> Ohhhhh, look at the rooty, rocky trail I just rode through because I have monster truck sized wheels!!


That's dumb. What's to stop me from using the same reasoning to say suspension is a crutch for the week? How about wide tires? Disc brakes? The whole point of racing DH is to do what it takes to go down a hill as fast as you can. If bigger wheels are beneficial, why shouldn't people use them?

That said, I am far from sold on 29ers, even for XC use. Would I love to take a spin on a on the 951 29er? Yes. Would I buy one? I'd need to ride one to know.


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## Matt 891 (Apr 23, 2007)

Hardtails Are Better said:


> That's dumb. What's to stop me from using the same reasoning to say suspension is a crutch for the week? How about wide tires? Disc brakes? The whole point of racing DH is to do what it takes to go down a hill as fast as you can. If bigger wheels are beneficial, why shouldn't people use them?
> 
> That said, I am far from sold on 29ers, even for XC use. Would I love to take a spin on a on the 951 29er? Yes. Would I buy one? I'd need to ride one to know.


Suspension is a crutch - along with everything else you said.

If you want to hone skills I recommend riding a minimalist hardtail rig as fast as possible. Then when you jump on the dh bike you will be choosing better lines, properly pump terrain and carry more speed.

I stand by my statement about 29 inch wheels.


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## iridemtb (Mar 25, 2008)

Matt 891 said:


> Suspension is a crutch - along with everything else you said.
> 
> If you want to hone skills I recommend riding a minimalist hardtail rig as fast as possible. Then when you jump on the dh bike you will be choosing better lines, properly pump terrain and carry more speed.
> 
> I stand by my statement about 29 inch wheels.


Wow, you are retarded. Lines for a hardtail aren't always lines for a full suspension bike. Quite the contrary a lot of times. It may be the gnarly line, IE the one too gnarly for a hardtail, that is faster.

Although riding a hardtail can be very beneficial.


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## Matt 891 (Apr 23, 2007)

iridemtb said:


> Lines for a hardtail aren't always lines for a full suspension bike. Quite the contrary a lot of times. It may be the gnarly line, IE the one too gnarly for a hardtail, that is faster.


WEAK rebuttal

Riding gnarly lines on your hardtail will make you faster on your fully.

you might be slower on your hardtail compared to your DH bike but thats the point of my arguement. (as silly as you may think it is, none-the-less)


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## bxxer rider (Jun 7, 2008)

simply don't have the money. and lack of tyre choice is a BIG thing for me.


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## Zanetti (Sep 18, 2005)

Hardtails Are Better said:


> What's to stop me from using the same reasoning to say suspension is a crutch for the week? How about wide tires? Disc brakes?


All those things were proven on motocross motorcycles long before the MTB adopted them. Where are the big wheels for MX bikes?

The people who design, engineer and race the fastest two wheeled off road vehicles on earth discovered long ago that the forces generated by big heavy wheels severely limit control at speed.


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

Zanetti said:


> All those things were proven on motocross motorcycles long before the MTB adopted them. Where are the big wheels for MX bikes?
> 
> The people who design, engineer and race the fastest two wheeled off road vehicles on earth discovered long ago that the forces generated by big heavy wheels severely limit control at speed.


Did you read the second half of my post? I was in no way claiming that 29 inch wheels were an improvement over 26s. My point was simply that bagging on 29ers for potentially being advantageous is moronic.


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## norbar (Jun 5, 2007)

managedenemy said:


> Sence 29er Downhill bikes have been made would yall switch from 26 to do yalls thing?


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## JTK37 (Nov 16, 2009)

What long travel Freeride bikes 6+ inches travel or DH bikes exist in 29er form? I can't find anything more extreme than the Niner at 5.5". Thanks, Joe


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## Zanetti (Sep 18, 2005)

Hardtails Are Better said:


> Did you read the second half of my post? I was in no way claiming that 29 inch wheels were an improvement over 26s. My point was simply that bagging on 29ers for potentially being advantageous is moronic.


I did, and I know where you're coming from. My comments were not actually directed at you, but more as food for thought for those that may be confused by the "29ers are better for everything and everyone" type of marketing that is being shamefully thrown at us from every direction.


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## GearTech (Mar 3, 2009)

I had a long drawn out answer but it's just a waste of time really, isn't it...


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## jcook1989 (Mar 16, 2008)

JTK37 said:


> What long travel Freeride bikes 6+ inches travel or DH bikes exist in 29er form? I can't find anything more extreme than the Niner at 5.5". Thanks, Joe


Intense 2951


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## managedenemy (Dec 7, 2009)

jcook1989 said:


> Intense 2951


Hey you found it!!!:thumbsup:


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Matt 891 said:


> Suspension is a crutch - along with everything else you said.
> 
> If you want to hone skills I recommend riding a minimalist hardtail rig as fast as possible. Then when you jump on the dh bike you will be choosing better lines, properly pump terrain and carry more speed.
> 
> I stand by my statement about 29 inch wheels.


 Personally, I think those that spout you need a hardtail to become any sort of a skilled rider are full of themselves. I don't think you need to attend the school of hard knocks to ride , enjoy or excel @ mountain biking.


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## norbar (Jun 5, 2007)

jcook1989 said:


> Intense 2951


1 thing that puts me of that bike - looooooooooooooooong CS


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## Monk_Knight (Aug 1, 2008)

> All those things were proven on motocross motorcycles long before the MTB adopted them. Where are the big wheels for MX bikes?
> 
> The people who design, engineer and race the fastest two wheeled off road vehicles on earth discovered long ago that the forces generated by big heavy wheels severely limit control at speed.


Last time I checked, a MX track and a DH race course are almost nothing alike... also note that MX bikes have over double the amount of travel as most DH bikes and have a powerful engine to propel them... it's not really a valid comparison.


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## readingracing (Mar 1, 2006)

Actually, 650b could have promise.I plan to build a all mtn bike this year with 650b.I'm curious about it's potential.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Nope, don't see me riding 29" any time soon... 

I'm skipping a generation and waiting for the 32" wheels. :thumbsup:


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## Uncle Six Pack (Aug 29, 2004)

essenmeinstuff said:


> Nope, don't see me riding 29" any time soon...
> 
> I'm skipping a generation and waiting for the 32" wheels. :thumbsup:


35s would roll over stuff so well you don't even need suspension on WC DHs


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## kyle10bike (Apr 4, 2009)

*29 for trails.. not DH.*

29 will always be superior in trail ridding but never in downhill ridding. If you put a full XT build kit on Giant Trance X it weights 27lbs... if you put the same build kit on a Niner R.I.P. 9 it will weight 30lbs... not to big of a difference... but if they start making 29 wheels, forks, frames, and tires that withstand downhill ridding then your dealing with way more weight than you need.


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## pajak (May 20, 2009)

Matt 891 said:


> 29 inch wheels are a crutch for riders with sub-par skills
> 
> Ohhhhh, look at the rooty, rocky trail I just rode through because I have monster truck sized wheels!!


if sam hill does it then most of the people here will too. the problem is matching up tire/fork/wheel sponsors. if someone can do it and win then more will and things will change. i just want to ride my bike as much as possible. if 29 makes me faster than you i would.


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## FA-Q (Jun 10, 2008)

*Looky here, another "expert"...*



kyle10bike said:


> 29 will always be superior in trail ridding but never in downhill ridding. If you put a full XT build kit on Giant Trance X it weights 27lbs... if you put the same build kit on a Niner R.I.P. 9 it will weight 30lbs... not to big of a difference... but if they start making 29 wheels, forks, frames, and tires that withstand downhill ridding then your dealing with way more weight than you need.


There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to start... 
#1- 29ers are NOT "always superior in trail "ridding""(spellcheck, dude...) That depends on what kind of trails you ride, and what your riding style is. I have tried 29er bikes, and they are NOT "superior" for ME on the trails that I ride (more FR than XC). I'm sure they are better for certain riders on certain kinds of trails, but not for everyone.
#2 "never in downhill "ridding"". Never? Absolutely Never? Not for ANYONE? How do YOU know? The argument you offer is about weight. Since when has weight penalty ever prevented DHers from exploring and successfully using new technology?
My personal opinion here is that 29ers are relevant for certain riders doing certain types of XC riding, but I really doubt that they are the best size to use for FR or DH. However, I would be VERY interested in taking a 29er gravity rig for a test ride before forming opinions with words like "always" and "never". The test ride would have to be cheap or free, though, I'm not gonna invest thousands of $$ just out of curiosity.


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## kyle10bike (Apr 4, 2009)

FA-Q said:


> There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to start...
> #1- 29ers are NOT "always superior in trail "ridding""(spellcheck, dude...) That depends on what kind of trails you ride, and what your riding style is. I have tried 29er bikes, and they are NOT "superior" for ME on the trails that I ride (more FR than XC). I'm sure they are better for certain riders on certain kinds of trails, but not for everyone.
> #2 "never in downhill "ridding"". Never? Absolutely Never? Not for ANYONE? How do YOU know? The argument you offer is about weight. Since when has weight penalty ever prevented DHers from exploring and successfully using new technology?
> My personal opinion here is that 29ers are relevant for certain riders doing certain types of XC riding, but I really doubt that they are the best size to use for FR or DH. However, I would be VERY interested in taking a 29er gravity rig for a test ride before forming opinions with words like "always" and "never". The test ride would have to be cheap or free, though, I'm not gonna invest thousands of $$ just out of curiosity.


Who are you... my mom, why do you care how I spell?

Well lucky for me I get to ride 29 all the time... for free! I have owned a R.I.P. and a Reign X and I have to say on almost everything (unless it was super DH specific) the R.I.P. bettered the Reign X, up and down! 29 are not just for XC... people who say that obviously haven't seen the limits of a 29. Maybe instead of just test ridding a 29 you need to own one... you cant nearly know how to ride a 29 in two rides (they ride way different than a 26in.) I'm not argueeing just for 29... I own a Glory, and in no way is there (and I hope there never will be) a 29 that I could ride the same stuff that I ride on my Glory. I have also ridding the WFO... great bike, but still no downhill bike. So no worrys about me saying "always and never" cuz I have ridding and owned the best of both sides. My argueement is not just about weight... once you start moving a certin speed I think in tight turns 26 will always be superior. You just cant lay over a 29 like you can a 26in... it takes a lot more effort. But weight is an issue.. pro downhill ridders wouldn't use all ti bolds on their bikes if weight wasn't an issue. Come on, we all know we want light bikes.

*My finaly answer:*
If your not ridding DH, freeridding or dirt jumping and your not poor... then you should be ridding a 29.

And if you dont like mountain bikes than ride a 20.


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## Amazing Larry104 (Aug 19, 2005)

i wouldnt be caught dead on a 29er. 
They are a crutch for the weak


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## kyle10bike (Apr 4, 2009)

Amazing Larry104 said:


> i wouldnt be caught dead on a 29er.
> They are a crutch for the weak


Hahaha.. you could say that about everything. Do you think hydrolic brakes, suspention, nine speed cassettes, light weight parts, and good tires are all crutchs for the weak as well??

You know, lots of people return 29s becuase the gear reatio is too difficult for them. Doesn't seem like a crutch for them.


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## Amazing Larry104 (Aug 19, 2005)

kyle10bike said:


> Hahaha.. you could say that about everything. Do you think hydrolic brakes, suspention, nine speed cassettes, light weight parts, and good tires are all crutchs for the weak as well??
> 
> You know, lots of people return 29s becuase the gear reatio is too difficult for them. Doesn't seem like a crutch for them.


Yes, as a matter of fact I do.
But all those things are cool, 29ers are not. They look stupid. 
And I know lots of people who return 29ers because the gear ratio is LAME!


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## AMCAT (Sep 10, 2009)

Drank the 29er coolaid,then I returned to my bullit2 and woke up thing WTF was that all about !!!! 
For D.H. & F.R. the 29er thing will never happen....


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## rep_1969 (Mar 25, 2004)

No thank you.


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## m-dub (Apr 22, 2005)

First off, I do not own a 29er. That being said, Why should a 5' dude and a 6'5" dude ride the same wheels size. I see them as a good option. And untill we all ride one its just a bunch of waisted time saying its great or not. Im not going to bash it just because its not currently cool. Im sure if Hill was on one the world would all praise the 29er. I think in the coming years we will see more of them and they may be the right bike for some. There is no "right bike" for all.


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## SamL3227 (May 30, 2004)

what about a 29/26 setup. no need to mess with the rear end and just drop the front to 7in or whatever. the increased dia and tire contact seem like a good idea to me. in the front at least. 

anyone try this out? duh i doubt it unless you have a dorado or shiver unfortunately.


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## Hesh to Steel (Oct 2, 2007)

Whenever these threads come up I always picture the people who swear the most energetically that 29er DH will never work to be the first ones who'll line up to buy a big-wheeled big bike if their favorite DH superstar wins a race on one. 

Bottom line, as M-dub says, taking sides in this argument is a waste of time since none of us have actually ridden a 29er DH frame built with 29er specific DH parts. It's really amazing how everyone on this forum will preach at people to "only buy a DH bike if you get a chance to test ride it" and yet are so willing to discount that bigger wheels might work without even SEEING such a bike in person, let alone riding one.


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## Amazing Larry104 (Aug 19, 2005)

Hesh to Steel said:


> Whenever these threads come up I always picture the people who swear the most energetically that 29er DH will never work to be the first ones who'll line up to buy a big-wheeled big bike if their favorite DH superstar wins a race on one.
> 
> Bottom line, as M-dub says, taking sides in this argument is a waste of time since none of us have actually ridden a 29er DH frame built with 29er specific DH parts. It's really amazing how everyone on this forum will preach at people to "only buy a DH bike if you get a chance to test ride it" and yet are so willing to discount that bigger wheels might work without even SEEING such a bike in person, let alone riding one.


its basic physics


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## FA-Q (Jun 10, 2008)

kyle10bike said:


> Who are you... my mom, why do you care how I spell?
> I guess it's just a basic courtesy thing. If you want others to read and consider your opinion, couldn't you take the effort to communicate in a way that comes across as somewhat thoughtful and intelligent? Sorry, maybe I was a bit rude on that one, it's just a personal pet peeve. Spelling really isn't that difficult...
> 
> *My finaly answer:*
> ...


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## Tim F. (May 22, 2006)

FA-Q said:


> kyle10bike said:
> 
> 
> > Who are you... my mom, why do you care how I spell?
> ...


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## Tim F. (May 22, 2006)

kyle10bike said:


> Who are you... my mom, why do you care how I spell?
> 
> Well lucky for me I get to ride 29 all the time... for free! I have owned a R.I.P. and a Reign X and I have to say on almost everything (unless it was super DH specific) the R.I.P. bettered the Reign X, up and down! 29 are not just for XC... people who say that obviously haven't seen the limits of a 29. Maybe instead of just test ridding a 29 you need to own one... you cant nearly know how to ride a 29 in two rides (they ride way different than a 26in.) I'm not argueeing just for 29... I own a Glory, and in no way is there (and I hope there never will be) a 29 that I could ride the same stuff that I ride on my Glory. I have also ridding the WFO... great bike, but still no downhill bike. So no worrys about me saying "always and never" cuz I have ridding and owned the best of both sides. My argueement is not just about weight... once you start moving a certin speed I think in tight turns 26 will always be superior. You just cant lay over a 29 like you can a 26in... it takes a lot more effort. But weight is an issue.. pro downhill ridders wouldn't use all ti bolds on their bikes if weight wasn't an issue. Come on, we all know we want light bikes.
> 
> ...


Glad, for once, that I'm poor! Now I have a logical reason not to own a 29er!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Probably not going to be a big thing anytime soon.*

I have owned and ridden 6+" travel 29ers for almost 5 years, and rode expert-level DH for about 5 years prior to that on a variety of 26" bikes. My skills have eroded considerably and my body can't handle much crashing these days, so take this with a grain of salt, but I feel they've got some advantages, especially for bigger folks. I know that on chunky wheel-trapping type terrain I'm faster, and on my personal bikes, total wheelbase is pretty comparable to a 26" setup. Chainstays are 440mm (or about 17.5"), and I can manual/wheelie about as well as I ever could on a 26er. Which is not very well, of course.

Alex Morgan has done some serious racing (at a pretty high level) on 29" wheels for years, as well. He might chime in if he's still around and using MTBR.

The rim/tire/fork selection currently doesn't make it possible to compare apples to apples, but I'm guessing we'll see 29" wheels carve out a smallish niche in the light-duty DH/freeride section of the market over the next few years. Most folks won't want one, and I don't see 26" wheels going away. That said, with decent tires, rims, and forks, they do (as folks have pointed out) make things easier in some situations. They also cause problems in some situations, of course, so like many things, it's rider and terrain dependent.

Ride what you love. Love what you ride. Regardless of wheel size.

-Walt


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## FA-Q (Jun 10, 2008)

Walt said:


> I have owned and ridden 6+" travel 29ers for almost 5 years, and rode expert-level DH for about 5 years prior to that on a variety of 26" bikes. My skills have eroded considerably and my body can't handle much crashing these days, so take this with a grain of salt, but I feel they've got some advantages, especially for bigger folks. I know that on chunky wheel-trapping type terrain I'm faster, and on my personal bikes, total wheelbase is pretty comparable to a 26" setup. Chainstays are 440mm (or about 17.5"), and I can manual/wheelie about as well as I ever could on a 26er. Which is not very well, of course.
> 
> Alex Morgan has done some serious racing (at a pretty high level) on 29" wheels for years, as well. He might chime in if he's still around and using MTBR.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Walt! An intelligent, well spoken (and properly spelled! ) response from someone with plenty of real-world experience in the actual issue being discussed! I can't believe this actually happened on the internet!:eekster:  :thumbsup: 
Much better than "I only ridding 29er on trail and Glory on DH, I no ekspereince with DH race on 29 but I spew opiniens lyke thay arr fakts"...:skep:


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## FA-Q (Jun 10, 2008)

Tim F. said:


> Holly shyt!! You really hate peeps with poor spelling skills. lol.


 Nah, not really that much, but the guy spewed off like an idiotic know-it-all, and his spelling really was unbelievably bad, so I couldn't help it... It's kinda like if a fat chick is rude, what's the easiest way to insult her? Doesn't mean you hate fat people...


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Not gonna see 29'ers become common on the dh market because of packaging. In the back, finding space for the seat tube, suspension linkage larger tire, mud clearance and wheel travel means either hughnormous chainstays or compromised design. In the front... well, forks price per unit to produce goes down much more quickly with volume than with frames, and there just aren't enough pro-29er tall dh'ers around to warrant tooling up.


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## joelalamo45 (Aug 3, 2006)

How about this? 36 inches of something or other.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

You used the word yall twice. Thus I have no serious reply for you whatsoever. Good day sir.








I SAY GOOD DAY


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

not sure what mast configurations have to do with biking to be honest.


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## Thor29 (May 12, 2005)

It's amazing how close-minded and conservative DH guys are. 
I thought you guys were risk takers, but you seem afraid of anything new.
Just a bunch of knee-jerk reactions, "me no like, big wheels bad!"
Like Walt said, a 29er DH bike will be better in some areas and worse in others.
If I could afford it and they actually existed (the 2951 is only a prototype and there are no forks other than the Dorado), I would replace my Bullit with a 29er freeride bike without any hesitation.

The same advantages that I get in XC/AM riding with my 29ers would apply in downhill - the bigger wheel would roll through the chunky stuff better and would hold it's momentum better. The only disadvantage I've experienced is slower acceleration. That isn't much of a problem when doing downhill runs. And contrary to know-nothing assertions, the bigger wheel is no problem when airborne - I can jump my 29ers just as well as I can the Bullit. I just can't land them in a rock pile as safely since they don't have the travel, slack angle or burly wheels of the Bullit. Those things are not 29er related.

If all of the arguments against 29ers are correct, why aren't you guys riding on 24 inch wheels? Or why not 20" BMX wheels? Who says 26" is the optimum size?


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Naturally that begs the question why bikes have sort of fallen on the 26" wheel size.

There were bigger wheels, and there are smaller wheels, so maybe, and I'm just throwing this out there, just maybe its a good compromise...

Right now my 26" bike works pretty damn well, so you saying we don't take risks etc, then I ask you why you think I should change something I really see no problem with?

Like someone else said, its not just a yeah big wheels roll over stuff better but the whole package, how do you fit all the right bits in there and still get the right geo/travel etc?

Right now my frame is pretty tight with 26" wheels, adding another 1.5" radius would mean a lot of other compromises.

Yes big wheels roll over bumps better, so maybe for rocks etc you don't need 8-10" of travel, but big wheels do not help absorb landing impacts, so less travel no matter what wheel size is worse.

On top of that, generally in the wheel world, you want to REDUCE mass, rotating inertia etc etc, so no matter how you slice it, a 29" DH worthy tire is going to be heavier than a 26" tire and that weight, as well as the rim etc is further out from the axle, ie double whammy on your rotational inertia right there. This might be ok for slowly rolling over rough stuff in xc conditions, but DH bikes go faster, rotational inertia increases with speed, as do the gyroscopic forces, eventually it will become difficult to turn the thing.

As someone said, its physics.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Good points, kind of*

I find that the faster the speeds, and the rougher the terrain, the better the 29" wheels do. On the other hand, you're absolutely right that for the "ride up the ladder/over the rock and fall 10 feet to transition" which is very popular these days, suspension travel trumps wheel size. For stunt/drop/huck type riding, I'd take 26" wheels any day. Then again, I don't do that kind of riding anymore because I'm way too brittle and can't risk not being able to work due to injury.

On the other hand, for riding really rough stuff at decent speeds, I think the big wheels are better.

The turning thing is totally off base, though. Yes, there's more gyro force, but the gyro force is so tiny compared to the forces you can easily exert with your body weight that it's irrelevant. How a bike turns/leans/steers is a function of frame/fork geometry, not wheel weight, at least not in the wheel weight ranges we're talking about here.

BTW, 26" wheels were the size that balloon tires (think 2" slick/semislick) were available in back in the Repack days, and they were pretty much the only offroad capable tires anyone could get. So the size was really only adopted because of the existing tires at the time. That said, it's a pretty darn good size.

-Walt



essenmeinstuff said:


> Naturally that begs the question why bikes have sort of fallen on the 26" wheel size.
> 
> There were bigger wheels, and there are smaller wheels, so maybe, and I'm just throwing this out there, just maybe its a good compromise...
> 
> ...


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

The flip side is, big wheels make terrain easier, that just means someone is going to build a rougher trail


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

What would be an interesting excersise (albeit something that would need fairly deep pockets), is starting with a clean sheet of paper and designing the ideal (lets say) Dh race bike, only thing is it needs to be a bicycle, ie two wheels and no motor... Then see what comes out, really analyse the pro's cons of every aspect.

Me personally, if 29" wheels turn out to be the bee's knees, then I'll get one when I replace my bike. If its a fad, then I'll get what ever else is the weapon of choice for me at the time.

Its kinda like computer CPU's, I have a decent one, it does everything I need with no real trouble, yeah there are faster ones, but untill I do stuff where what I have limits me (that's the key) I won't "upgrade" to the latest and greatest.

What I don't like is people who sip what ever cool aid and tell me that for what ever marketing sold as fact reason what ever I have sucks. Just like the tr450 thing, hardly anyone has even ridden it yet and people recommend it over a multi WC proven race bike, what is that?!


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## Amazing Larry104 (Aug 19, 2005)

yall need to stop sayin yall
learn to speak english 
maybe then you will be smart enough to know that 29ers suck


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## Restoman (Feb 21, 2009)

Matt 891 said:


> 29 inch wheels are a crutch for riders with sub-par skills
> 
> Ohhhhh, look at the rooty, rocky trail I just rode through because I have monster truck sized wheels!!


QFT!! I'm with you on that one.


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## Hesh to Steel (Oct 2, 2007)

Restoman said:


> QFT!! I'm with you on that one.


So you ride DH on a full rigid fixed gear, right? Because, you know, suspension, gearing, those are just CRUTCHES, man! :thumbsup:


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## FA-Q (Jun 10, 2008)

essenmeinstuff said:


> not sure what mast configurations have to do with biking to be honest.


OK, now that's actually funny!  Every now and then I get a reminder that I'm not the only mtn. biker who also sails...:thumbsup:


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## FA-Q (Jun 10, 2008)

Thor29 said:


> It's amazing how close-minded and conservative DH guys are.
> I thought you guys were risk takers, but you seem afraid of anything new.
> Just a bunch of knee-jerk reactions, "me no like, big wheels bad!"
> Like Walt said, a 29er DH bike will be better in some areas and worse in others.
> ...


Hey, taking risks on your bike is a lot different than taking risks with thousands of dollars that I worked my tail off to earn. If you want to find guys who take financial risks, look to Wall Street or the World Poker Tournament. Not all of us have knee-jerk reactions, some, like me, are skeptical but would be curious to try it. Problem is, unlike a certain illiterate tool who posted earlier, I get nothing for free, and I have no free or cheap options to check it out.
There are a whole lot of reasons why I'm skeptical about 29" wheels for gravity riding. That doesn't mean I'm stupid enough to say they will NEVER work for ANYONE, but I really think that at best, they might work better for certain riders on certain types of terrain, and probably more for racing than the freeriding I do (no, I don't do huge hucks, but to me, any gravity riding is freeriding if you're not racing). 
Regarding optimum wheel size, I have owned and ridden 24" wheels (with old-school monster Gazzalodis ) and test-rode some 29er bikes (not gravity rigs), but I have concluded that I prefer 26". Doesn't mean it's the optimum size for everyone, just for me.


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## LGavin (Jul 18, 2011)

In my own personal opinion and experience.In the 5 categories,The 29er wheel platform wins 3-2.

Cross Country- 29er (There's no doubt here.29er offers a larger tire contact and would build bigger momentum to assist you in pedalling. An energy saver so to speak.)

Trail- 29er (Kinda same as my comment above)

All mountain- 29er (I own a RIP9 right now and I would say that it is a certified all mountain machine. I was skeptic at first because "All mountain? at 120mm of travel?I dont think so!" But 29ers, specifically Niner walked their talk that 29er wheel platform amplifies the fork travel of their bikes. A 120mm fork on a 29er would feel like riding any 26er 6inches rig and even better.Why? because the larger wheels ROLLS over any obstacle while maintaining momentum.

As for the FR and DH discipline, I cant give any comments as I only tried it once and not in the near future. I mean I just want to enjoy mtbiking, getting to places where even 4x4 monster truck/jeep cannot go is already a wonderful experience for me. For me, 29ers are here to stay no doubt! lets ROLL IN PEACE mates!


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Where's Cooperfield?

This is his dream...

Not being agressive but what do any of you care if there are 29er DH bikes If you like 26er, live it. Not like 29er arrival will end the 26er dominance.

The rider first on the podium is the best, doesn't matter "what" he rides!

How many times have ya seen someone on junk bike smoke the field?

If the market sees demand for 29er DH bikes they will build them and people will buy them claiming they are the best thing made. Remember the 29er wheels turn slower debate and aren't good for XC racing? Haaaaaa! That one is living back with the pony express right now.

Is there room for 29er tech to expand? Yes! 29ers with wider hubs, wider tires and more travel. Sure, then someone will win a race on a 29er DH and that will be that they will be added to the mix!

In a different comparison/similar... LOL a few years back Honda was using 20inch tires and wheels(not BMX) on the front of their MX bikes, Dunlop was pushing the trend as they had the first opportunity to get their foot in the door, remember the Honda 23inch front wheel/tire? Husqvarna swore faster lap times with a 17inch rear tire/wheel combo back in the 1970s

* I have one new 17inch knobby, and 6 brand new 20 inch Dunlops on the shelf in stock.......... any takers? Fresh out of** 23 inchers though!

*In the end we will have more choices, 26er or 29er...
... and don't forget the 36erDH is lurking.:eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster:

LOL


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

Let's try a little experiment... 

If you have never ridden a 29er with a Dorado (which would give you a decent idea of what a DH 29er MIGHT be like) then go back and edit your response to "I don't know, I don't have enough info to give a valid opinion"

And the same goes for the Big Wheelers: If you have never ridden a WC-level 26" downhill bike (modern geometry, last three years or so) then go back and edit your response to "I don't know, I don't have enough info to give a valid opinion"

Would be curious to see what's left.

JMH


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## DigbyDog (Jul 13, 2010)

Just because they make it, doesn't mean we have to* buy it*!!!

Don't get me wrong... I am the first to drool over new equipment and get excited about improving my rigs (Blur LT2 & Driver 8).

I agree that a 29'r is better in some situations and for some riding techniques, but worse off in others. And... those areas where a 29'r is worse off, are the areas that (IMO) are the most fun to experience on a mountain bike (ie flying through the air). A 29'r hardtail (IMO) is just a step burlier then a my cyclocross rig (which I love riding also).

I do find that many of my friends who have or want a 29'r have very different goals for their trail ride then I do.... I like to ride aggressive, freeride, and catch as much air as possible. My 29'r friends seem to like many of the same trails, but ride more conservatively.

I know I am generalizing here, but to Walt's point, he seems to prefer the 29'r as his body has gotten older, beaten up or out of shape. (sorry Walt). I am currently in my early 40's (I know some will think I am old) and still in great shape, but I could actually see a day when a 29'r would be a great choice (but no where in the near future...60's maybe).

It does get me a bit frustrated when people spend so much time judging others rides. Be happy with what you like, ride it hard and most importantly.... get out and explore!


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

JMH said:


> Let's try a little experiment...
> 
> If you have never ridden a 29er with a Dorado (which would give you a decent idea of what a DH 29er MIGHT be like) then go back and edit your response to "I don't know, I don't have enough info to give a valid opinion"
> 
> ...


what he said.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

JMH said:


> Let's try a little experiment...
> 
> If you have never ridden a 29er with a Dorado (which would give you a decent idea of what a DH 29er MIGHT be like) then go back and edit your response to "I don't know, I don't have enough info to give a valid opinion"
> 
> ...


Well put.

That leaves, what, about 20 people, worldwide?

I've had three full seasons on my Lenz 29" DH bike. Just sold it so that I could try more modern geo for next year--lower and slacker, but still with big wheels on both ends.

Each time I hand my bike to someone eager to try it, I get to try their 26" DH bike at the same time. I'm always, always impressed by how good their suspension feels **when standing still**. This includes a Canfield, a Demo, a Rocky, a Trek, a Scott, a Kona, and a Santa Cruz. And in less than one lap of wherever we happen to be riding, I'm ready to give them their bike back, permanently. Almost invariably, they want to take at least one more lap on mine!

No two ways about it--the technology is still WAY better in 26" DH--and that includes rims, tires, forks, and frame designs.

But that ain't enough.

You can throw all the suspension travel and technology you want at the problem, but the bumps, roots, holes, chop, ledges, etc... still have to come through the wheels before any of the suspension matters. My favorite way of putting it is that my bike doesn't fall into 27" holes.






Cheers,

MC


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

I have to laugh at this forum. Someone just gave me negative rep for this post--classic!


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

JMH said:


> Let's try a little experiment...
> 
> If you have never ridden a 29er with a Dorado (which would give you a decent idea of what a DH 29er MIGHT be like) then go back and edit your response to "I don't know, I don't have enough info to give a valid opinion"
> 
> ...


You fall into both categories, I'd be curious to hear your take on this topic.


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

climbingbubba said:


> You fall into both categories, I'd be curious to hear your take on this topic.


Heh. I ain't dumb enough to try to discuss religion up in here. Gets too many folks all wound up and they start talking crazy.


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

JMH said:


> Heh. I ain't dumb enough to try to discuss religion up in here. Gets too many folks all wound up and they start talking crazy.


Ha ha, fair enough, I'll have to ask you in person one of these days i guess


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

climbingbubba said:


> Ha ha, fair enough, I'll have to ask you in person one of these days i guess


You bet, I certainly do enjoy babbling about bikes.


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## ride_nw (Jan 12, 2010)

The sport is changing so fast, I think it is short sighted to say 29ers will _never_ have a place in DH/FR.

Within this decade 28" bars were considered wide, 24" rear wheels were common, bottom bracket height of 15" was legit, etc.

I also think it is short sighted to every say "I'll never ride a bike with X on it". Your preferences and opinions will never change or evolve? What's important to you now might not be in the future. If you're lucky you'll still be riding bikes for several decades. That's a long time to hold onto an idea of what the perfect bike setup is. Even if your mind never changes your body will.

Keep an open mind is all I have to say. And if you're happy on your DH bike from 1999 by all means keep on ripping it! Nokian Gazzaloddi 3" tires FTW.


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## helpmehh (Dec 14, 2011)

[email protected]!


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## m-dub (Apr 22, 2005)

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


ride_nw said:


> The sport is changing so fast, I think it is short sighted to say 29ers will _never_ have a place in DH/FR.
> 
> Within this decade 28" bars were considered wide, 24" rear wheels were common, bottom bracket height of 15" was legit, etc.
> 
> ...


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

I'm not wanting to join the argument for or against 'cause I'm not decided. But I do have a question that I have yet to see asked.

What happens when (such as landing a drop) you are using your legs as well as suspension to absorb the impact and you have 3" less room to bend your legs before your butt impacting the back wheel? 

Now I have seen guys drop on 29'r hardtails and do just that without hitting but still isn't there a loss of usable cockpit (pun intended) space there for us less fit and talented folks?

You might say one shouldn't be that far out the back of the bike but I think so.

I do think the larger wheel will help with going through the chunk but I think there are some drawbacks like the ones mentioned here.

Most 29'rs under an XL or XXL frame look unpleasant to me.


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## ride_nw (Jan 12, 2010)

fermenter said:


> What happens when (such as landing a drop) you are using your legs as well as suspension to absorb the impact and you have 3" less room to bend your legs before your butt impacting the back wheel?
> 
> Now I have seen guys drop on 29'r hardtails and do just that without hitting but still isn't there a loss of usable cockpit (pun intended) space there for us less fit and talented folks?
> 
> ...


I've never thought of that. But it sounds like we are talking about the difference in radius not diameter in your example so it might be more like a 1.5" difference and not a 3" difference. This does not invalidate your idea by any means... there are pros and cons to all wheel sizes 20/24/26/29... I still remember the first time I got on a 24" cruiser after only ridden 20" bikes. Monster truck for sure!!! It was big and not as nimble but I found that I preferred it.

Don't forget 26" bikes aren't as good on dirt jumps as 20"ers. It doesn't matter to those who pick the 26. Maybe there is a similar correlation on 26 vs 29 for dh? Usually the bike that is the most fun == the one that is best for you. Unless you are pro of course.


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

fermenter said:


> What happens when (such as landing a drop) you are using your legs as well as suspension to absorb the impact and you have 3" less room to bend your legs before your butt impacting the back wheel?


It's true, it's more likely you will buzz the seat of your pants. It's also pretty likely that you will have to run your saddle higher to avoid buzz, but that would depend a bit on suspension design. But it all points to needing longer legs. The longer the travel and the bigger the wheel, the bigger the rider needs to be to manage everything. You can't stick a 5'5" rider on an Intense 2951 and expect anything good to come of it.

I am sure we have all seen kids or women around 5' tall trying to manage a dual crown DH rig, most of them would be better off with a lower front end and the same thing happens with the bigger wheel.


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

Specialized did a back to back test uphill and downhill on 26/29 XC bikes. Not a downhill course/bike, but still food for thought. For me 26 is more fun, and that's what its all about. I don't time my runs (and when I do its "like 3 hours" and not "2:53:33.65"  )

Christoph Sauser 26er/29er Testing - YouTube


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

JMH said:


> It's true, it's more likely you will buzz the seat of your pants. It's also pretty likely that you will have to run your saddle higher to avoid buzz, but that would depend a bit on suspension design. But it all points to needing longer legs. The longer the travel and the bigger the wheel, the bigger the rider needs to be to manage everything. You can't stick a 5'5" rider on an Intense 2951 and expect anything good to come of it.
> 
> I am sure we have all seen kids or women around 5' tall trying to manage a dual crown DH rig, most of them would be better off with a lower front end and the same thing happens with the bigger wheel.


I don't have my bike set up for DH with a dedicated seatpost and seat....but using my gravity dropper there have been a few times entering into a super steep slope that I had my bum well behind the seat. Buzzed the shorts for sure. The only time I have hit the tire hard was a loss of foot off the peddle....that's on a 26'r now.

I'm real interested to see what the reports are back on these bikes from the pros as well as the recreational DH riders.
Cheers!


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

mikesee said:


> I have to laugh at this forum. Someone just gave me negative rep for this post--classic!


Probably a stray pinkbiker. They have been pavloved to negprop anything on the uncool list.


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## dirtyknobbies (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm all for advances in technology for bikes as long as it is a needed and benefit for overall handling and control. Without either you aren't going to shred any kind of trail that well. As far as crutches go..Please. Take away suspension, disc brakes, todays geometries and trails would not be ridden at the level they are today. I have never ridden a DH 29'er, but have ridden many AM to XC 29'ers and for me...not a fan. I don't like how you sit more into the bike, I find you have less 'body english' with your movement on the trail. For roll over ability on 26 vs. 29. That is why XC 29'ers are at their best..typically a 26 XC tire is rather narrow. On a AM to DH bike....26" tires are pretty wide, wide as you want to go. Run tubeless and I can roll over anything with ease on my 26'er. So what it really comes down to is personal choice, where you ride, how you ride. There is no more right or wrong wheel size...I just hope the industry doesn't make 29'ers mandatory like they have with 10 speeds on all new bikes.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Hah!*

My point had nothing to do with being old and lame (though I certainly am). My point was that for groomed riding (ie, manmade jumps/berms/stunts) a 26" bike is probably better for most riders, because you're not really rolling over super-chunky terrain. For more natural/rougher terrain, the bigger wheels are noticeably better. So I would actually argue that the *more* technical stuff is better with bigger wheels, and the less technical/jump trails are probably better with smaller ones.

You can look at the extreme end of that spectrum (slopestyle/DJ) and see 24 and 20" wheels, obviously. So the more groomed things get and the more time you spend in the air, the better smaller wheels do. The more you're charging through chunder and roots and offcamber corners, the better off you'll be with big ones, IMO.

Keep in mind, too, that 100% of the folks on this thread who have actually ridden long-travel 29" bikes liked them a lot. A large majority of the folks who have not are expressing doubts - which is exactly how 29" XC bikes were perceived 10 years ago.

-Walt



DigbyDog said:


> I do find that many of my friends who have or want a 29'r have very different goals for their trail ride then I do.... I like to ride aggressive, freeride, and catch as much air as possible. My 29'r friends seem to like many of the same trails, but ride more conservatively.
> 
> I know I am generalizing here, but to Walt's point, he seems to prefer the 29'r as his body has gotten older, beaten up or out of shape. (sorry Walt). I am currently in my early 40's (I know some will think I am old) and still in great shape, but I could actually see a day when a 29'r would be a great choice (but no where in the near future...60's maybe).
> 
> It does get me a bit frustrated when people spend so much time judging others rides.


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## Marshall Willanholly (Jan 27, 2004)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet (unless I missed it):

All hands on deck Mr Christian the 29er is faster and has taken over.

Related video:


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

Hell I'm excited to see 29s in the dh free ride arena a bit dissappointed its taken them this long.
Looking forward to a good 7"+ slack 15" bb sled. Lol the bb will probably be high unless they center the bb lower than axle which would in theory give you more stability from going over the bars.

So hopefully 29s jump in (I ride 26 so don't flame me for having interest)


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## bendik.ph (Jan 13, 2010)

how about a 36? 








i am trying to imagine how we can put 8 inches of travel here. if i lean back, the tires will be pounding on my balls even in those 1 foot drops


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Um...*

You're aware that the BB height is unrelated to the size of the wheels, right? 29ers have the same BB heights as 26" bikes.

-W



bullcrew said:


> Hell I'm excited to see 29s in the dh free ride arena a bit dissappointed its taken them this long.
> Looking forward to a good 7"+ slack 15" bb sled. Lol the bb will probably be high unless they center the bb lower than axle which would in theory give you more stability from going over the bars.
> 
> So hopefully 29s jump in (I ride 26 so don't flame me for having interest)


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## JasperIN (May 16, 2009)

bendik.ph said:


> how about a 36?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


YUCK!:nono:


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Well put.
> 
> That leaves, what, about 20 people, worldwide?
> 
> ...


That vid makes a decent argument for resort/park 29ers being fun. But also lackadaisical... Compared to a World Cup DH vid where they throw their bikes around constantly due to terrain, turns, etc... Maybe you don't have to move the bike cause it rolls over stuff??? Course those were pretty groomed trails, and the nasty stuff was taken really slow. Cool vid, but not really supportive of 29er for DH?

Don't you think a large part of the reason people wanted a 2nd go at your 29 DH bike is just cause for average mountain bikers such a bike is pretty rare...?


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

Just throwing it out there for discussion, for us average joe bikers a 29er DH bike is a rare thing. But for pro's to get some new prototype it wouldn't be as rare. For sure Trek's DH riders got to ride prototype 29er DH bikes and passed on the idea. And you'd think SC would do proto's for Minnaar as tall as he is. If a 29er would be a benefit for DH it would seem like it would be for the taller dudes. And the Intense 29er DH bike has been around since 09 at least, you'd think we'd see some racing results by now and not just test footage...

I bet a niche 29er DH market will continue to form, and for sure it might be the goto ride for some DH courses. But it's not like they haven't existed for awhile now. (this threads more than 3 years old) So you'd think we'd already see them being raced by now if it was something that would produce race results...???


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

stiingya said:


> That vid makes a decent argument for resort/park 29ers being fun. But also lackadaisical... Compared to a World Cup DH vid where they throw their bikes around constantly due to terrain, turns, etc... Maybe you don't have to move the bike cause it rolls over stuff??? Course those were pretty groomed trails, and the nasty stuff was taken really slow. Cool vid, but not really supportive of 29er for DH?
> 
> Don't you think a large part of the reason people wanted a 2nd go at your 29 DH bike is just cause for average mountain bikers such a bike is pretty rare...?


You seem to want to compare the riding styles and abilities of three middle aged never-weres to current WC DH riders?

Kind of answers itself, dontchathink?


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

mikesee said:


> You seem to want to compare the riding styles and abilities of three middle aged never-weres to current WC DH riders?
> 
> Kind of answers itself, dontchathink?


Actually no I don't think. :thumbsup:

One of those gents seemed to be making the point that 29ers were ready to take on the DH world using his riding experiences and video as proof. I merely pointed out that I did not think that was so based on his given examples. And used WC DH riders as a comparison to make the point.

There are numerous DH video's of other middle aged never-weres that are no where near WC DH level that still seem to ride at a WAY faster rate on WAY harder trails than the video that was posted. It's just that I had recently watched a bunch of WC vids so it was still on my mind... :thumbsup:

Who's the guy in the Intense 29er DH bike video? Maybe he's a WC DHer? BUT the video of them showing the 2951 still doesn't support the bike for racing. (unless there is a new vid out there?) It's all Freeride stuff. Lots of big slow jumps. A couple slow mo's of him hitting a berm or two.

So I guess the point I'm making, is that If you want to show a video that supports the idea of 29ers and DH racing than I need to see someone racing DH on one. (with times on a known DH course for comparison to other bikes) Otherwise your only supporting 29ers for FR which is fine,(if it doesn't break when it lands I don't think gravity cares what kind of bike you drop with!), but wasn't the point of the thread.

I did search, I see Bianchi has a new "aggressive" 29er, looks sweet. But I did not see any other 29er vids that looked like they were comparable to DH "racing"...?


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## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

*26 = "BMX with deraileurs"*



Matt 891 said:


> 29 inch wheels are a crutch for riders with sub-par skills
> 
> Ohhhhh, look at the rooty, rocky trail I just rode through because I have monster truck sized wheels!!


True that. Real MTBs are really BMX with deraileurs and 26" wheels.
Also true that after ridign my ridgid HT, like the "cruch" of my front suspesnsion fork on my other HT.


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