# What steel for handlebars?



## jocko (Apr 29, 2005)

I'm starting to work on my first frame after some requisite practice brazing (thanks to all here for the invaluable info!). I'd also like to play around with some handlebar designs. Just for townie use at the moment, would want to make sure I could trust the fillets before any dirt time. What thickness of 4130 should I start with? Is 7/8" x .049 or .058 about right? I'd like to do something similar to the Jones bar / Groovy Luv Handles and play around with sweep angles. Couldn't find anything on the boards specific to handlebars, so any advice is appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

I'd say if you don't trust your frame welds enough to ride that, I certainly wouldn't build bars. However, either of those thicknesses should be fine at least for the Jones bar style, I'm using 0.035 on the ends. Keep in mind the center section is 1" though.


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

jay_ntwr said:


> I'd say if you don't trust your frame welds enough to ride that, I certainly wouldn't build bars. However, either of those thicknesses should be fine at least for the Jones bar style, I'm using 0.035 on the ends. Keep in mind the center section is 1" though.


7/8" to 1" shims are easy


----------



## jocko (Apr 29, 2005)

Thanks for the input. I was planning on either shimming the stem clamp, or using 1" for the center piece. I'm working on my first frame now and am anxious to test out my joining skills. I think there's a good chance the first few bars wouldn't be used, we'll see how comfortable I am with the end product...


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

shiggy said:


> 7/8" to 1" shims are easy


Or shim 1" to 31.8 and spread out the stress a little more.


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

jay_ntwr said:


> Or shim 1" to 31.8 and spread out the stress a little more.


1" to 1.25" is tougher than 7/8" to 1".

The latter can simply be a piece of 1" .058 tubing.

Using 1" for the cross piece is dead simple


----------



## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

jocko said:


> I'm starting to work on my first frame after some requisite practice brazing (thanks to all here for the invaluable info!). I'd also like to play around with some handlebar designs. Just for townie use at the moment, would want to make sure I could trust the fillets before any dirt time. What thickness of 4130 should I start with? Is 7/8" x .049 or .058 about right? I'd like to do something similar to the Jones bar / Groovy Luv Handles and play around with sweep angles. Couldn't find anything on the boards specific to handlebars, so any advice is appreciated. Thanks.


This is a timely thread, I'm considering doing the same! Just trying to find a source of 7/8" chromo. I'm also thinking of making an integrated handlebar/stem "h bar" dealio at some point, with two tubes for the stem. It'll either be lovely, or super ugly.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

bobbotron said:


> This is a timely thread, I'm considering doing the same! Just trying to find a source of 7/8" chromo. I'm also thinking of making an integrated handlebar/stem "h bar" dealio at some point, with two tubes for the stem. It'll either be lovely, or super ugly.


Yeah, I'd like to do that too. Here's my model of it:









I'd like to redo it with unicrown fork legs for the "stem" parts though. I think they'd be plenty strong and taper nicely toward 7/8" sections. This was just more of a CAD Mock-Up to see what it would look like. it would let you get trigger shifters on the bar as well.


----------



## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

jay_ntwr said:


> Yeah, I'd like to do that too. Here's my model of it:
> 
> I'd like to redo it with unicrown fork legs for the "stem" parts though. I think they'd be plenty strong and taper nicely toward 7/8" sections. This was just more of a CAD Mock-Up to see what it would look like. it would let you get trigger shifters on the bar as well.


Cool  I was thinking something simple like this. (Sorry about the crappy drawing, all I have is MS paint here.)


----------



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

jay_ntwr said:


> I'd like to redo it with unicrown fork legs for the "stem" parts though.


That's a good idea.

I like when peeps think outside the square when it comes to alternative uses for tubes.

For segmented forks I use the bulge butted seat tubes for legs. Works a treat.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> That's a good idea.
> 
> I like when peeps think outside the square when it comes to alternative uses for tubes.
> 
> For segmented forks I use the bulge butted seat tubes for legs. Works a treat.


Yeah, I thought so too--thanks.

I'm placing an order next week for some stuff from Henry James, so maybe I'll add some fork blades to the order and get these modeled at least. The only reason they aren't modeled yet is that I didn't have the blades to measure and start with.

bobo, IMHO, what you've got drawn won't work for me. It may for you, but not for me. The genius, again--IMHO, behind the H-type bar is that it works as a cantilever (and possibly as a torsion spring but I haven't done the FEA on it to know if it's appreciable) to give the rider some suspension with a rigid fork. I suppose in a suspension fork application, yours would be fine though. But that design would certainly have to ride harsh in comparison on a rigid fork.

Also, in a geared application, the straight section doesn't work well with most shifters. Just food for though.


----------



## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> For segmented forks I use the bulge butted seat tubes for legs. Works a treat.


I knew I'd got my top tube idea from somewhere.


----------



## Hubcap Cycles (Sep 6, 2009)

Here are 2 bar/stems I did a year ago. I liked the clamp on the gold one, but couldn't handle the sweep. The silver one was set up for single speed, and I liked the sweep, but thought the clamp was ugly. Single speed because the brake levers mounted on the nubs of the 7/8 tubing. This might sound stupid, but I stopped playing with this design because it was hard to walk the bike. Nothing to grab onto with one hand. Made from 7/8x.035 and 1x.035.
Cheers,
Hub
http://hubcapcycles.com


----------



## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

jay_ntwr said:


> Yeah, I thought so too--thanks.
> 
> I'm placing an order next week for some stuff from Henry James, so maybe I'll add some fork blades to the order and get these modeled at least. The only reason they aren't modeled yet is that I didn't have the blades to measure and start with.
> 
> ...


Interesting thought! I'm not sure I buy it - I can't see your bars being that much more forgiving than a normal bar, but there might be something to it. I road a unsuspended bike for a year with normal, 5 degree bars and also big sweep FUbars. Both are quite stiff bars, but I found the fubars to be more comfrotable, I think due to the sweep. Mostly, I just want to do this to practice brazing, and I think it would be fun to try some H-bars without the H-bar price.  I'm a hack at best, but I'm trying to learn.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Hubcap Cycles said:


> Here are 2 bar/stems I did a year ago. I liked the clamp on the gold one, but couldn't handle the sweep. The silver one was set up for single speed, and I liked the sweep, but thought the clamp was ugly. Single speed because the brake levers mounted on the nubs of the 7/8 tubing. This might sound stupid, but I stopped playing with this design because it was hard to walk the bike. Nothing to grab onto with one hand. Made from 7/8x.035 and 1x.035.
> Cheers,
> Hub
> http://hubcapcycles.com


Very Nice. I like those a lot. That's very similar to what fork blades should look like (or what they look like in my head at least). I never thought about trying to bend a single tube around though. That's a nice idea. I do like the clamp on that silver one too.


----------



## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Hubcap Cycles said:


> Here are 2 bar/stems I did a year ago. I liked the clamp on the gold one, but couldn't handle the sweep. The silver one was set up for single speed, and I liked the sweep, but thought the clamp was ugly. Single speed because the brake levers mounted on the nubs of the 7/8 tubing. This might sound stupid, but I stopped playing with this design because it was hard to walk the bike. Nothing to grab onto with one hand. Made from 7/8x.035 and 1x.035.
> Cheers,
> Hub
> http://hubcapcycles.com


John, You rock! I really like your ideas, particularly the use of split cotters in bike design. (I just picked up a copy of the Machinist Bedside Reader by Guy Lautard... I was like wow... gotta use that in bike design.. but ooops.. you are already there.)

Question for you on those bars. On the silver bar, are you attached to the fork with the same design as Jay shows, only a bit larger? Split tube with braze on, then allen head machine bolt? There must not be much room for the allen wrench...

Looks like a split cotter on the gold set of bars.. wow, did you turn those on a lathe to match the angled bar, or is that a brazed in tube system?

Anyway.. you do impressive work. Thanks for sharing (And in my best...I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy... Wayne and Garth imitation)

--zip.


----------



## Hubcap Cycles (Sep 6, 2009)

Zip,
I stole that clamping design from the Ringle stem years ago. I see that Thompson is currently using it. Thought it looked real clean and started using it everywhere. I use it on the seat tube for the seat post, on stems on both the steer tube and the bar, and even for a single speed eccentric. It slows down my fabrication, but feel that it is a nice detail. The only work done in the lathe is to turn down the dia of the 6061 clamps to fit inside the tube, everything else was done in the vert. mill, and everything was tig welded. Thought about doing a third generation, just too busy building frames. 
Cheers,
Hub
http://hubcapcycles.com


----------



## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

So what wall thickness would you all recommend for 7/8" handlebar tubing? Also, for the steerer clamp? How close does the clamp inner diameter have to be to 1.125"?


----------



## Hubcap Cycles (Sep 6, 2009)

Bobbotron,
I've had good luck with 7/8x.035 Plymouth 4130. I would not go lighter, but I have also used .049 for bigger riders. I use 1 1/4x.065 and bore it out to fit the 1 1/8 dia, but that is because that is what I had on hand. 
Cheers,
Hub
http://hubcapcycles.com


----------



## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

*Internal split clamp.. old idea*



Hubcap Cycles said:


> Zip,
> I stole that clamping design from the Ringle stem years ago. I see that Thompson is currently using it.QUOTE]
> 
> It's been around sine the bike boom (1890's). In the case of the Thomson Elite stems, they are very prone to coming loose.. not the stem, but the headset can't be kept snug. the split collets or whatever they are called slightly depress/deform the Al steerer, and the upward forces of riding move it slightly upward. Retightening only makes the condition worse..a slight dimple in the steerer. It also comes at a weight penalty. Not the best for uniform clamping forces.
> ...


----------



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Thomson is not using that design anymore.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Hubcap Cycles said:


> Made from 7/8x.035 and 1x.035.
> Cheers,
> Hub
> http://hubcapcycles.com


It just occurred to me that the 1" could wrinkle and you'd be ok 'cause you were cutting it out anyway. Did you wrinkle that or did you get a smooth bend on that swank bender of yours? Just curious.


----------



## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> Thomson is not using that design anymore.


That's what I thought, and almost wrote as much in my post. A quick check of their site and they still showed it along with current offerings.

I believe they had some 'issues' with steerers getting fubar'd, but I'm suprised it would still be on the site.

100% not cool to use on carbon.

-Schmitty-


----------



## Hubcap Cycles (Sep 6, 2009)

No wrinkle, and no I didn't use the bender that I posted pics of on another thread. I used a JD square model 2 with cerro bend.
Cheers,
Hub
http://hubcapcycles.com


----------



## rocwandrer (Oct 19, 2008)

Just a homebuilder here, but I've done a bunch of stem/bar combos and a bunch of handlebars now. 

With a lot of sweep, I measure effective stem length to the center of the grip area. The forward projection has to be quite a bit more than it seems like in order to get the desired effective stem length. Neither of the first two drawings look forward enough to me, unless you are going for a 50 mm effective stem or something.

1.25x0.058" tubing works perfectly as a stem clamp.

I started out mocking up bends in electrical conduit because it is cheap with the intention of paying to get the bends done professionally once I had the shape i liked (this was for recumbent seats, but anyway...). Then i figured out the conduit bender can do a good job of bending some better tube that isn't the right size for it at a tiny fraction of the cost of a quality bender.

If I am doing more than 1 or 2 bends, i mock it up in electrical conduit first, but there is a trick: mark 1" intervals on the conduit tube before bending it, and mark the start of the bend before you bend it. Then when you have what you want, you can go back to a marked out good tube, and just place your starts in the same places, bend to the same angles, and end up with what you want. 

IIRC, a good 3/4 conduit bender (made for .922" OD) will just barely bend 0.049" wall 0.875" 4130 tubing with a 6" radius. 0.058" 4130 will break the aluminum casting, and 0.035 will wrinkle the tube... 23mm od .8mm wall bends really nicely, but I don't know where to get it anymore... These do work awesome for 5/8 x 0.035 4130 too  I found the 0.875 x 0.035 to work well for straight-ish handlebars on Commuter/MTB's. I even built a 100mm stem with 0.875 x 0.028 4130 and bronze fillets which has been going for 5 years of winter commuting (a bit whippy for an off road rig, but not bad on pavement).

I've also done a bunch of aluminum handlebars too. in aluminum, the 3/4 conduit bender will do 0.875" diameter 0.035" wall ok, and 0.049 and 0.058 and 0.065 beautifully. 0.095" wall 6061-T6 will get marked up pretty bad by the bender grip.

My wife's cruiser bike uses 0.875 x 0.049" 6061 T-6 with 4 conduit bender bends in it and basically a 0 effective stem length (it uses a long stem). It would be floppy as hell on a mountain bike, but with the upright seating position and laid back riding attitude it inspires, the compliance is quite nice. The problem with trying to build compliance into a mountain bike handlebar, as I see it, is that as soon as the compliance is enough to be useful for suspension, it is far too much for good control, and the compliance is roughly the same all directions with most round tube schemes.


----------



## rockhound (Dec 19, 2005)

Has anyone simply bent some 7/8" tubing and put a 1" shim in the middle?


----------



## rocwandrer (Oct 19, 2008)

rockhound said:


> Has anyone simply bent some 7/8" tubing and put a 1" shim in the middle?


I have several times. I've also owned a number of handlebars that were mass produced and sold retail that were that way. It used to be common for any funky bend bar (as in the less common configurations) like really wide road bars, or integrated bar end MTB bars to come as bent prizmatic (all one diameter) tube with a shim. Also dual purpose city/commuter bars used to come straight with your choice of 25.4 or 26.0 shims.

Apparently hydroforming is getting less expensive, and/or the market wont bear shims as stock solutions. perfectly decent approach though. you only give up a little strength and stiffness.


----------

