# Toy or Tool?



## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Impressed with the quality and uniformity of cuts made here by the Proxxom Micromot table saw I went searching and found they make a range of "model making" tools including this little mill. Taking off VAT (I live in Australia) that comes to less than $250Aus, that's about $200 cheaper than its available here and about $400 cheaper than sieg x2 mill locally.

Obviously it's a baby but does appear to be big enough to have milled even my biggest light.

My question is does anyone have experience with these? Is it a tool or more of a toy, or am I the one being the tool?


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Check out this site for some more in Emu http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1276532.

Also check out CNC Zone http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-8957509077914564:t32wbj-cxcg&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=mf+70&sa=Search&siteurl=www.cnczone.com/forums/knee_vertical_mills/5002-maximum_feedrate_aluminum_proxxon_mf.html

Seems that most guys convert them to CNC which is a really easy job given that the stepper motor kits and drivers are so cheap these days and the serial card PC software to run the mill is Freeware.

Looks like a pretty neat machine. For aluminium they say start around 10,000rpm spindle speed with a 3mm cutter, which is a large as this machine will take, use some kero as cutting fluid and move at cut at about 1.6mm/sec for a 1.5mm deep cut. This will give you some idea how long a housing will take to knock up.

They certainly have some accessories available for the little beasty. For the price, hell, it's nearly as cheap as a Dremil kit. I might get one just for the fun of it and hey, if I CNC it I could make RC helicopter and car parts, or do fancy engraving since the spindle goes up to 20,000 rpm.


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## mfj197 (Jan 28, 2011)

Awww, it's sweet! 

It actually looks like quite a good find. I assume it can work with aluminium (it seems to be working ona small aluminium billet in the image), and if so looks like it could be extremely useful - not to mention fun.


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## bravellir (Nov 24, 2008)

I had also being reading about last week them and I'm as curious as you are. Are they strong enough to handle what we need?


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## Itess (Feb 22, 2009)

mfj197 said:


> Awww, it's sweet!
> 
> It actually looks like quite a good find. I assume it can work with aluminium (it seems to be working ona small aluminium billet in the image), and if so looks like it could be extremely useful - not to mention fun.


Yes, it can work with aluminium but very slow. That's why I bought Proxxon BFW 40/e + BFB 2000 + KT 150. Unfortunately, there's not good way to convert my kit to CNC.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

I don't know that I would ever move to cnc but it does look easy and relatively cheap with the MF. Nice links Brad, got to love the first post, the guy used his one to make a bigger one:thumbsup: 
Itess that combo you referred to looks good but do you think it is as accurate? I like that it takes bigger cutters and has more room but the using bigger cutters also means using a slow speed doesn't it? It's a bit more too, about $490Aus plus postage, a little harder to convince the CFO. What does the motor controller actually control, just the speed of it or depth as well?

Brad, did you see the engraving attachment you can get for it?


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

emu26 said:


> Brad, did you see the engraving attachment you can get for it?


Yep, those guys thought of everything.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

*Well found!*

That's very attractively priced alright. Might even be able to justify that to the CFO.


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## Itess (Feb 22, 2009)

emu26 said:


> Itess that combo you referred to looks good but do you think it is as accurate? I like that it takes bigger cutters and has more room but the using bigger cutters also means using a slow speed doesn't it? It's a bit more too, about $490Aus plus postage, a little harder to convince the CFO. What does the motor controller actually control, just the speed of it or depth as well?


What do you mean by "accurate"? KT 150 has backlash of course, but you can adjust it, BFB 2000 has Z-axis with 0.1mm scale. To work with these backlashes you must get used to it but it's doable. Motor controller controls only speed of the motor. Yes, BFW motor is slower than MF. it has 6000 RPM max.


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## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

emu26 said:


> Impressed with the quality and uniformity of cuts made here by the Proxxom Micromot table saw I went searching and found they make a range of "model making" tools including this little mill. Taking off VAT (I live in Australia) that comes to less than $250Aus, that's about $200 cheaper than its available here and about $400 cheaper than sieg x2 mill locally.
> 
> Obviously it's a baby but does appear to be big enough to have milled even my biggest light.
> 
> My question is does anyone have experience with these? Is it a tool or more of a toy, or am I the one being the tool?


With the mills tooling and clamps can cost as much as the unit itself it seems.  
Small mills can do the job. It is just slow work. 
Troutie had a little mill and switched over to a larger one. 
You see the same thing with the lathe guys.
So if you are looking to make extremely accurate light bodies and possibly putting a few hours into each one, then the little mill will get the job done.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Emu,
here in the UK ebay is full of those little Proxxon mills and the usual reason given by the sellers is that they are just too small. The reason that I know this is because I was looking into getting one.

After looking into it further I have decided against getting one. 

Apart from the fact that they are very expensive in the UK, i think they are just too small( I like small as I use a Taig micro lathe) but there is small and there is bloody tiny!

If you can get one at a nice price then it might "come in handy" but fitting a rotary table for example that is big enough for light building will be a no-go. Unfortunately the next size up in the Proxxon mill range, the FF230 or FF500 is a huge price increase but is a lot more useful.


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## mfj197 (Jan 28, 2011)

Regarding a nice price, the link emu26 gave is for a company in Germany that has it for a very nice price indeed (including tax) and will ship to the UK for €9.95. That makes the total price including delivery, using today's exchange rate, the grand sum of £188.49. Is it really too small to work the lights yetibetty? It looks like the dimensions would cope?


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Wow, 9.95 to the UK. I'm holding out hope that they will post down under. Have sent an email and am awaiting a reply.

Thanks for the feedback yetti, that was my concern. Certain there is enough x y movement for even the biggest light I have built but your comments about the rotary table are fair.

They do have the next size up for about $650 euro (from memory) which is again about $200 cheaper than I can find elsewhere.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

emu26 said:


> Wow, 9.95 to the UK. I'm holding out hope that they will post down *[/under. Have sent an email and am awaiting a reply.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback yetti, that was my concern. Certain there is enough x y movement for even the biggest light I have built but your comments about the rotary table are fair.
> 
> They do have the next size up for about $650 euro (from memory) which is again about $200 cheaper than I can find elsewhere.*


*

If you convert it to cnc you wouldn't need a rotary table..
I've not checked out your link, but I saw the proxon mill when I got my sx2, personally I think there to small..*


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

mfj197 said:


> Is it really too small to work the lights yetibetty? It looks like the dimensions would cope?


Just make very small lights The things that will be limiting are the max collet size(think of Dremel for comparison) and the 100 W motor. When looking at table size and the X, Y & Z travel remember to allow room for a vice or clamps to hold your work or the tiny rotary table they sell.

If after calculating that, you find that it is big enough then for that price you can't go wrong.


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

If you don't count the computer/monitor, my Taig was a little under $2,000 for everything including some tooling and a 4" toolmakers vise. With a 5/16" endmill I can slot at about 16IPM with a 1.25mm DOC dry in 6061. For the same price you could buy yourself a manual mill that will easily triple that DOC.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Damn 
_For the time being we have no possibility to send our goods to your country.

We ask for your understanding.
_


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## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

emu26 said:


> Damn
> _For the time being we have no possibility to send our goods to your country.
> 
> We ask for your understanding.
> _


Maybe better for you in the long run. 
Look for used mills in your area or get a small table saw.:thumbsup: 
That mill would have been underpowered and slow.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

I've got the compound saw that I use to do the finning and would probably keep using that because it is just so damn quick. The mill would allow me to fin areas the saw can't get into and also clean out more of the insides of the light bodies to drop more weight. I know if I keep using my drill press for that it won't be long for this world because of the side forces applied to it that it's not designed for. That and the fact it just isn't very accurate.

anyway, for those interested in giving these a try sieborshop is only a couple of euro more and it looks like they will ship outside of the EU

As for the Taigs, $2000 is just so far out of my league its not funny. I do regulalry trawl for 2nd hand ones here and they just don't turn up. There is place in Adelaide that regularly lists Sieg X2 mills and mini lathes both as auction items and buy now on ebay. The auction often go for as much as the buy now and the buy now price is well over $600 just for the machine, no tools at all.

Anyway, back to the daydreaming


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

If you can pickup a manual x2 I'd think you'd be really happy with it. Cutting depth is similar to the taig and it's easily the most popular mill for cnc conversions.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Just a heads up for anyone States side, Harbour Frieght have a sale on a 7" x 10" lathe at the moment, now $500US. Not sure how that compares to your local fleabay


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Ok, I know, if its too good to be true it probably is.....but I just thought I would check here in case someone has had experience with these guys. It looks like its a similar set up to amazon but based on asia's "alibaba" which I know from a mates personal experience is busy handing out your email addresses. Anyway, has anyone purchased from aliexpress.

This price on a Sieg SX2 is the best I have seen and they claim free shipping to Aus 

I know, I can live in hope though can't I?


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## lachstar2 (Jul 16, 2007)

Personally I would be careful buying from Alibaba or Aliexpress, although they do claim to refund your money if you are scammed. It may take a long time. Although 550USD is very nice compared to the 800AUD which Hare & Forbes are selling it for, but you do get 12 month warranty from them. Remember you have about $500 of accessories which you should buy; clamps, rotary table, endmills, collet. 

BTW I have successfully brought a couple of bike frames from Alibaba, but I also have a friend who was scammed trying to buy a complete bike. Just be careful, anything thats too good to be true usually is.

On a side note, not to hijack the thread, I am actually looking to buy a mill myself. Is the X3 ($1750AUD) worth the increase in price to the X2 (~$800AUD)? I plan on converting either to CNC once I have gotten the hang of using them.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Looks pretty good. As long as you pay via credit card or paypal so you are covered by buyers protection you should be fine.

Check out this link http://www.wholesaleforum.com/discuss/wholesale-dropshipping-reviews-5043/aliexpress-com-review-anyone-here-riding-aliexpress-1857/index2.html. There main advice is not to use escrow for paying for the item but the guys on this site say to stay away completely http://www.slatedroid.com/topic/815-forget-aliexpress/.

I guess if the price is worth the hassle of a payment dispute if the mill doesn't arrive then maybe worth it


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Lach, the machine on H&F for $825 is not an SX2 but an X2. The big difference is the 500w brushless motor and from the reviews I have read, better quality build. The SX 2 doesn't appear to be available here from either of the two "proper" distributors here and on the siegind forums they haven't asnwered the question about where we can buy them.

Micromark stateside has the SX 2 for $695US and the SX 0 for $430 obviously cheaper for us with the exchange rates   but then you have to have it shipped here, and then there is the problem of them being imperial, not metric and 110v not 240v, although that is an easy fix with a transformer.

Axminster have them both but they quoted me 550 pound to ship it here :madman: :nono:

I've been looking high and low for a while now but I can't find a single seller from HK, Singapore, Korea etc that looks legitimate and sells them. None of the listed distributors for any of the asian countries even has them listed on their websites. Most frustrating.

Anyway, I'm not sure about the value of the x3 over the x2 or the sx 2, I haven't looked at it because it is way out of my budget.

Brad, thanks for the links. Interesting to see they say stay away from escrow, that sounded like a great safe guard over and above paypal and your own cc levels of protection.

Any other takers with experience, good or bad, with aliexpress?


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Hey Emu, what about this one on fleabay and located in brissy http://cgi.ebay.com.au/x2-seig-milling-machine-/290560306779?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item43a6be6e5b#ht_680wt_1140


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks Brad, I think that's a new listing as I haven't seen that one.

It's an x2, not an sx 2 so has the plastic gears as opposed to the brushless belt drive version. Also not sure about cost of postage for that to Sydney but ozmestore quotes $85 from SA so probably about the same.

I'm "dealing" with axminster at the moment, trying to work out how to get it VAT free even though I want them to ship it to me via my mates head office in Germany, frieght to there is only 75 pound. He imports containers of gear on an almost monthly basis and has offered to throw it into one of his containers for me. I'd have to pay GST at this end because of the total shipment cost but that's ok, as long as I don't have to also pay the VAT.

I'll get there eventually


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

emu26 said:


> Anyway, I'm not sure about the value of the x3 over the x2 or the sx 2, I haven't looked at it because it is way out of my budget.


Hi, I own both the x2 and x3 and have to say that hands down the x3 is a better mill. The weight sucks when I had to move the x3, but it helps with rigidity which means accuracy and just better in most ways. The biggest drawback to the x2 is the column which rotates, and seemed like a feature- until the head has to be trammed because it was bumped. If you do go for an x2, there are some really worthwhile mods aside from CNC - they are the belt drive kit (check littlemachineshop.com) and stiffening the column - I would suggest perma-fixing it so it cannot rotate and filling it with something heavy to give it more mass. littlemachineshop in the US also sells a high-torque x2 mill which looks really good too, but costs more than the generic x2. CNC-wise, the kits from cncfusion.com are great to get up and going, and there are plans to roll your own at hossmachine.info - he has taken the x2 to an extreme.


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

HuffyPuffy said:


> littlemachineshop in the US also sells a high-torque x2 mill which looks really good too, but costs more than the generic x2.


It's the sx2


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

kan3 said:


> It's the sx2


Thanks, I was not familiar with the sx2, though lms calls it their "HiTorque Mini Mill" - I should have put that together from the info several posts up. The "HiTorque Mini Mill" costs more than my x3 though, and still more than I paid for my x2 and belt drive kit combined - though they have improved the electronics too. I bought both my mills on sale at Harbor Freight which no longer sells the x3, but has the x2 on sale for $400 which is a steal. The sx2 looks like a very nice mill, but it appears to use the same chassis as the x2 with the rotating column (which can be fixed in place several ways if it causes problems).


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

The prices on the clones tend to range quite a bit even for stuff like the bf20/30 etc. It's similar to the sx3 vs x3 in that it's just a few upgrades to the base mill model.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

You have to be very careful about what you are looking at. Alot of the clones are sold under the shop name then with letters sx0 OR sx2 OR sx3 but the s often only refers to Sieg and not Super, as in high torque, belt drive versions.
Occasionally they also have the wrong picture


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

The latest addition in my shop (being run by my youngest son).


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

that is just cruel


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Vancbiker said:


> The latest addition in my shop (being run by my youngest son).


Should be subtitled:
"That's not a mill... this is a mill" :thumbsup:


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

HuffyPuffy said:


> Should be subtitled:
> "That's not a mill... this is a mill" :thumbsup:


It's not size that counts, its what you do with it..


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

bet he can't stick it under the bed when he's finished with it though!


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

mattthemuppet said:


> bet he can't stick it under the bed when he's finished with it though!


HaHa, too true! Sum***** weighs ~1000kg. Quite the struggle to get it in place in the shop. Got a couple of vises, collet set, and loads of cutters with it. Now I need to find a deal on a boring head and rotary table.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

Vancbiker said:


> HaHa, too true! Sum***** weighs ~1000kg. Quite the struggle to get it in place in the shop. Got a couple of vises, collet set, and loads of cutters with it. Now I need to find a deal on a boring head and rotary table.


I imagine it doesn't shake around much though? Mass has it's benefits


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Vancbiker, are you gonna CNC that baby? It is really nice to be able to walk away from the mill (not too far) while it does it's thing.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

HuffyPuffy said:


> Vancbiker, are you gonna CNC that baby? It is really nice to be able to walk away from the mill (not too far) while it does it's thing.


Doubt it. I have access to CNCs at the job. Might look into it in a few years when I retire and won't have access anymore.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Vancbiker said:


> Doubt it. I have access to CNCs at the job. Might look into it in a few years when I retire and won't have access anymore.


Hang on a second. Are you telling us that beast is for private use in your own workshop and not at your place of work?

(Hmm, do I really want the answer to that question?)


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

mattthemuppet said:


> I imagine it doesn't shake around much though? Mass has it's benefits


you'd be amazed at how much a knee mill will shake when you are making heavy cuts.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

emu26 said:


> Hang on a second. Are you telling us that beast is for private use in your own workshop and not at your place of work?
> 
> (Hmm, do I really want the answer to that question?)


Not to hurt any feelings.... but yes it is in my shop behind the house.



unterhausen said:


> you'd be amazed at how much a knee mill will shake when you are making heavy cuts.


All machines have limits. They just get higher usually as the machine gets larger..


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

did someone say SPAM.

Thanks mods for removing


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Hey emu this mill drill doesn't look too bad http://cgi.ebay.com.au/RF-30-MILL-DRIL-/280670788896?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item4159485d20

or perhaps this one http://cgi.ebay.com.au/z-HAFCO-AL280P-MetalMaster-Milling-Machine-Lathe-Drill-/290560330624?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item43a6becb80


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks Brad, have added the first one to the watch list.

Second one is interesting but pick up from victoria might be a problem.

Thanks for keeping an eye out


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Has anyone heard of "Real Bull" before? These are a new listing to ebay and for a change I can do local pick up.

OK, I know I have seen them before but not under that name and I have looked at so many mills of late that I can't remember what it actually is. Any suggestions?


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

emu26 said:


> Has anyone heard of "Real Bull" before? These are a new listing to ebay and for a change I can do local pick up.
> 
> OK, I know I have seen them before but not under that name and I have looked at so many mills of late that I can't remember what it actually is. Any suggestions?


It is a grizzly mill or one of it's clones I think. The previous model to the one in your link is an XJ9510 which you can search for in google. The model you are looking at is the XJ9512 which I think just has a slightly bigger motor


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks Brad.

That means we have now found out who makes the Grizzly Mills, look what a quick google search turned up which means we also now know who makes the Warco mills, which may be of interest to some


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

So we have a few contenders who might make the mill. this mob http://www.realbull-machine.com/realbull-machine/en/cpzx_xx.asp?ProID=1686 or possibly these guys http://agritractor.en.made-in-china.com/product/RMXEpioraqWt/China-Mini-Drilling-amp-Milling-Machine-XJ9512-.html


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Is it a grizzly? Looks very much like a sieg X2 clone..









https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/PARAMOUNT-MINI-MILLING-MACHINE-FM13/5162/


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

So many clones you could make a Star Wars movie out of them


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

That Real Bull mill (which is a machine that would not sell very well in Texas due to it's unfortunate name) looks like another Sieg X2 clone. Sieg makes most of the clones out there, they slap whoever's label on them and ship 'em out the door.

Sieg Factory Tour

Edit, looks like the Real Bull is a different animal than the Sieg, thanks for the link Brad. Now we have clones of clones, but it looks like they have improved some things (like having wheels on both ends of the table and a cleaner appearance.

Just compared specs of the XJ9512 and the LMS version of the SX2, and the SX2 has more travel in the z-axis (235mm vs 180mm). I would get the x2/sx2 over the XJ9512 simply for the extra travel and the fact that there are many more options out there for the X2 clones. Z-axis travel is important since often a vice is necessary or useful and every bit of extra travel helps.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

HuffyPuffy said:


> That Real Bull mill (which is a machine that would not sell very well in Texas due to it's unfortunate name) looks like another Sieg X2 clone. Sieg makes most of the clones out there, they slap whoever's label on them and ship 'em out the door.
> 
> Sieg Factory Tour
> 
> Edit, looks like the Real Bull is a different animal than the Sieg, thanks for the link Brad. Now we have clones of clones, but it looks like they have improved some things (like having wheels on both ends of the table and a cleaner appearance.


Interesting little tour. I like the photo with the caption "stuffing and testing circuit boards" . How do they get any produced if the keep stuffing them


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Hey Emu, maybe you should get one of these http://www.mini-lathe.com/mini_mill/reviews/U1/U1.htm. or the Sieg U2

I can see heatsink fins being cut very easily using the horizontal spindle and circular cutter


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Definitely not a Sieg, different motor controls, different base, different travel, different motor.

That said, it is quite feasible that different components from each have originated in the same factory.

Brad, i think it is RealBull, not agritractor. If you click the "about us" tab of the real bull tab you put up or the one I did in post #50 then they very candidly give a company break down. I get the impression Agritractor looks like a reseller.

Huffy, the x2 and the sx2 are very different beasts. Same factory, same size but different build quality, different motor, plastic gears versus belt drive etc. You're right about the extra travel, that is what turned me off the Proxxon, that and the cost 

Brad, too true about the clones, there are so many similarities across most of the brands even if they don't originate at the same factory. I guess though it is too be expected given the country of origin of most of them. Did someone say Magicshine?


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

brad72 said:


> Hey Emu, maybe you should wait for one of these http://www.mini-lathe.com/mini_mill/reviews/U1/U1.htm.
> 
> I can see heatsink fins being cut very easily using the horizontal spindle and circular cutter


yes I saw one of those, online that is not in the flesh, last week. I think I'll stick with what we spoke about last week though, just got an email back and things are looking OK. Just have to advise the CFO first. Hmm, what will I cook her for dinner tonight? :thumbsup:


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

emu26 said:


> Just have to advise the CFO first. Hmm, what will I cook her for dinner tonight? :thumbsup:


But doesn't just having sex get what you want


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

emu26 said:


> Huffy, the x2 and the sx2 are very different beasts. Same factory, same size but different build quality, different motor, plastic gears versus belt drive etc.


True, that is why I threw in the X2 as a comparison for the Real Bull machine, since it more closely matches on features of the machine listed in the Ebay link, though for the price it would be better to get the SX2 or even X3, at least for myself being in the US.

The real problem in deciding between x2 clones is that there are so many different types of the same mill. For example, I said that I would get the X2/SX2 over the Real Bull based on z-axis capacity, however after looking at the official Sieg specs they are the same as the Real Bull (180mm), whereas the Grizzly G8689 advertises 7.5" (190.5mm) and the HF 44991 lists 8 18" (206.4 mm), and the LMS "High Torque" SX2 clone is even more (235mm). The table length also varies considerably. I'd guess that the same variations apply to the SX2 as the X2 in terms of x and z capacities.

Are these mills selling at a premium in Australia due to a lack of distributors or is it because of extra import duties? For example, given the same $850 AU that the Real Bull mill on Ebay costs, here in the US I could get an SX2 with a $100 to spare, a Grizzly G0463 (X3) for $100 more, or even an 44991 (X2) from Harbor Freight for $400, with a ballscrew kit from CNC fusion ($579) for around the same cost.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

brad72 said:


> But doesn't just having sex get what you want


It probably would if they were one in the same person


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

HuffyPuffy said:


> True, that is why I threw in the X2 as a comparison for the Real Bull machine, since it more closely matches on features of the machine listed in the Ebay link, though for the price it would be better to get the SX2 or even X3, at least for myself being in the US.
> 
> The real problem in deciding between x2 clones is that there are so many different types of the same mill. For example, I said that I would get the X2/SX2 over the Real Bull based on z-axis capacity, however after looking at the official Sieg specs they are the same as the Real Bull (180mm), whereas the Grizzly G8689 advertises 7.5" (190.5mm) and the HF 44991 lists 8 18" (206.4 mm), and the LMS "High Torque" SX2 clone is even more (235mm). The table length also varies considerably. I'd guess that the same variations apply to the SX2 as the X2 in terms of x and z capacities.
> 
> Are these mills selling at a premium in Australia due to a lack of distributors or is it because of extra import duties? For example, given the same $850 AU that the Real Bull mill on Ebay costs, here in the US I could get an SX2 with a $100 to spare, a Grizzly G0463 (X3) for $100 more, or even an 44991 (X2) from Harbor Freight for $400, with a ballscrew kit from CNC fusion ($579) for around the same cost.


I have a SX2 as some people know. the difference between the sx2 and x2 are
SX2
Brushless 500watt motor
Belt drive
Varible speed

X2 has a 350 watt motor 
Plastic gear driven
2 Speed gear box, although i think some have the varible speed instead

The SX2 is much quieter than the X2 because of the brushless motor, and the plastic gears on the X2 are easily broken when the cutter digs into the work and jams!

Also the X axis 180mm travel is incorrect, the measuring strip on the front is 180mm but it doesn't span the hole length of the table. The strip is also a bit longer than 180mm..of the top of my head i think its 230mm.

If i had the space i would have an X3 and then there's the cost! its double what the SX2 cost me. But i did now someone selling one for £500 when i bought my SX2 for £465.

Personally i dont like the ability to tilt the head in a mini mill, it's a ball ache to have to keep tramming the head. And i believe it makes the mill less rigid.
If you need to cut something at an angle, use a tilting vice, rather than tilting the mill head.

Can anybody get hold of these end mills? this is the only place I've seen them in the UK but dont want a hole set.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/8-HSS-4-flute...135016&cguid=90d85c7e12f0a0a9e915d0f5fe4d6a79

http://www.axminster.co.uk/milling-machines-dept208257_pg1/

Emu, dont forgot that it really is worth putting the DRO on at least the X and Y, it makes life so much easier and things more accurate.
Have you tried these guys 
http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/TM16V-Milling-Machine/11000/
http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/Vertical-Mill-Drill/10842/
Dont know how far they are from you, or if they ship..
edit looks like they are a listing site, as there is a location for each item..


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

HuffyPuffy said:


> Are these mills selling at a premium in Australia due to a lack of distributors or is it because of extra import duties? For example, given the same $850 AU that the Real Bull mill on Ebay costs, here in the US I could get an SX2 with a $100 to spare, a Grizzly G0463 (X3) for $100 more, or even an 44991 (X2) from Harbor Freight for $400, with a ballscrew kit from CNC fusion ($579) for around the same cost.


Huffy there are a number of factors that push up the price here, duties and gst are 2, freight is a third, but there is also greed.

Your $900 sherline kit sells for close to $2400 here, guess what that one is?

Duty here adds about 5%. GST adds another 10% onto the new total.

Freight can vary as much as a length of string can. I have been quoted as much as 550GBP for a mill to be shipped from he UK, 48euro for a proxxon to be shipped from Germany, $200US for a sherline to here. The best I've got is $55US by sea for a mill from china (although aliexpress has free shipping, just not prepared to take the chance on that one)

Single distributors can jack up the price, I think that's the case with the sherline but they are compounded by the fact the distributor doesn't appear to sell direct but adds in another layer of profit making via retailers. Funny thing is Sherline US won't sell direct to me because of their local distributor. When I politely explained the situation here meant that Sherline wouldn't get my sale they were more than happy to direct me to a US retailer that sold metric 240v versions, go figure. Sieg have two local distributors and their price varies by about 10% but neither of them sell the SX2 and neither were interested in even quoting a special order. I'd rather stay away from the plastic gears of the X2.

I don't think it helps that we are the lucky country. Lucky to be resource rich, lucky to be well educated, lucky to be surrounded by countries prepared to buy our natural resources. Lucky enough to have them all sell back those natural resources in the form of manufactured product, which is really unlucky for our local manufacturing sector which is now but a shadow of its former self. Guess what no local competition does to prices?

Very frustrating, but I have learnt a lot over the last couple of weeks


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

That is bad news Emu, I can understand the taxes, etc, but not the gouging by the sherline distributor or the lack of interest by Sherline in addressing that, since it can only hurt them when people look elsewhere.

You may also want to check cnczone.com and see if there are any other folks in Australia that are looking for the SX2, or better have found one.

You will probably be happy with whatever sieg clone you get. I am partial to the X3, having seen all the X2's deficiencies that GoldDigger mentioned 1st hand - including the most frustrating which was the lack of rigidity in the column. The plastic gears are a simple fix with a belt drive kit which can be hacked together or bought as a kit. The X2 is not a POS, it just needs some work, IMHO the SX2 is an evolution of the same basic mill to address some problems with the X2, but I would not turn my back on an X2 deal if it were considerably cheaper. I'd also not think twice about the x3 over the sx2 if the price difference was not great.

One further bit of advice, if you intend on converting the mill to CNC, you don't need to drop hundreds on a DRO since mach3 handles that for you when properly calibrated. Also if you do go the CNC route, I would ditch the ACME screws and get some ballscrews and helical couplers which helps with the backlash.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks for the links Goldigger.

I haven't seen the Titans before either and surprise surprise one pops up on ebay today as well, oh and its the same price as the link you gave.

Oh, and by sheer coincidence, it looks almost identical to that brand new "real bull" machine that just happened to be listed for the first time in the last couple of days. Small world hey.

Huffy, thanks for the advice.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I've heard of people making supports for the head, which are permantly fixed so you cannot tilt the head. This has added more rigidty to the head.
Also some people fill the column up with sand..extra weight = more rigidity..
Some reading here for the X2 and SX2..
http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Reviews/Sieg SX2/SX2.htm
http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Features/features.htm


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

One other thing to note is often with chinese stuff things arn't setup correctly.
If you do get a X2 or SX2 be prepared to have to shim the spindle housing as sometimes the spindles are not inline..
For example if you used a spotting drill bit and started a hole, then put a longer drill bit in and went to drill the hole you started. You would notice that the drill bit doesnt line up with the hole started.
This is because the head is normally tilting down rather than inline with the table..
Hope that makes sense.
Here's the how to http://homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6007.0 it does look daunting at first, but really is a easy job.
If you get a X2/SX2 normally they come in bits and you have to assemble them, so its something to do while you assemble it..


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Other mods for he X2/SX2 here..scroll down the page
http://www.hossmachine.info/Shop_Info.html


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Excellent finds Jay regarding modding the Siegs and their clones. Looks like with a little care you can get a very accurate little machine.

So how far away are you from whacking on some stepper motors, ball screw and cnc'ing your little beast. I have a company I use in Aus with very good steppers and driver boards.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

brad72 said:


> Excellent finds Jay regarding modding the Siegs and their clones. Looks like with a little care you can get a very accurate little machine.
> 
> So how far away are you from whacking on some stepper motors, ball screw and cnc'ing your little beast. I have a company I use in Aus with very good steppers and driver boards.


Id love to turn it into CNC but not sure what parts i need..
This place in the UK seem to do everything. thing,http://www.slidesandballscrews.com/index.php

Do you know what id need of there brad?

Cheers


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Small world Jay as they sell the exact same steppers drives and psu units that i use.

To get accuracy for the slides I would use ball screws. This is just measuring what you have now and finding what is the closest fit. 

For your mill you might use the following parts
3 x High Speed MOT-124 Stepper Motors (125 oz-in)
1 x 3 Axis Stepper Motor Driver KTA-263
1 x 150W 24VDC Power Supply
1 x Parallel Port Interface KTA-205

I have chosen larger steppers as they have a better holding torque and can handle more load. The thing with steppers is that once they have lost a steps, that motor/axis will be out by x steps for the rest of that program until it has been re-zeroed to the home position. But in saying that, if you control the acceleration, speed and deceleration they can be incredibly accurate. 


The parallel port interface plugs into your pc that has the cad program loaded onto it. Most of the cnc programs are freeware so no problems there.

The only parts you would need to make are the stepper motor brackets and couplings to the ball screws.

Hope that helps a bit. :thumbsup:


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

brad72 said:


> Small world Jay as they sell the exact same steppers drives and psu units that i use.
> 
> To get accuracy for the slides I would use ball screws. This is just measuring what you have now and finding what is the closest fit.
> 
> ...


Cheers Brad..

3 x High Speed MOT-124 Stepper Motors (125 oz-in)
1 x 3 Axis Stepper Motor Driver KTA-263 
1 x 150W 24VDC Power Supply
1 x Parallel Port Interface KTA-205
Hows this look?

http://www.slidesandballscrews.com/sy60sth883008-nema-stepper-motor-p-118.html?cPath=45_81
http://www.slidesandballscrews.com/cpu5a3-economy-axis-controller-p-600.html?cPath=64
http://www.slidesandballscrews.com/power-supplies-p-121.html?cPath=46

Hows that look?
Dont think i need the parallel port interface as the axis controller has usb above
Nor sure which ball screws i should get, any ideas?

edit..I need to measure the ones i have already..

Cheers:thumbsup:


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

they don't look too bad at all . I did a quick google search. For ball screws for your mill check out this link and click on the mechanical work in the last paragraphhttp://biobug.org/machine-shop/mill/.

check out this link as well http://www.cncfusion.com/minimill1.html


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Hi GD. I'd suggest checking out the Gecko G540. It is a solid driver that can handle up to 48V which is plenty for the X2. It has excellent support and is simple to use - also you can't kill this thing (I have tried):

http://www.geckodrive.com/g540-p-39.html

CNCFusion has IMHO the best kits for conversion, but they are pricy, I think that hossmachine also sells a raw build it yourself kit and supplies screws (edit - looks like Hoss stopped selling kits):

http://www.cncfusion.com/minimill1.html

Note that not all ballscrews are the same - ground is considered better (and more expensive) than rolled screws. Finally the following link should pretty much answer most of your questions:

http://crevicereamer.com/Page_11.html


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

will you boys slow down and let me buy a mill before you have me day dreaming over upgrading to cnc 

OK, so I clearly I know even less about cnc than I did about mills a couple of months back, I have learnt a lot since then, but I thought I should let you know that there are a plethora of people selling nema step motors and even full kits on fleabay


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Yep, and there is something for every budget, though I have found that price is sometimes inversely proportional to frustration.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

He you go Emu. this is the Aussie seller of the steppers etc. http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/CNC-002.html

I have been using their motors for years in automation projects but not as cheap as fleabay


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

A quick thanks to emu, Goldigger and kan3 for putting up with my PMs.

I made a decision and pressed the pay now button on one of these this morning and it should be with me on the 20th I'll let you know if it turns out to be good, bad or ugly.
http://www.warco.co.uk/WM-14-Variable-speed-milling-machine---metric-84F32488C0.aspx#

If anyone has plans on filling their mill columns to add mass then I think this stuff will work well as I have used it in my large hollow speaker stands and they now weigh a ton.

http://www.atacama-audio.co.uk/atabites.htm


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Excellent Yeti. looks like a great little mill but can you wait till the 20th. Bet you feel like a kid waiting for Father Christmas to arrive


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I'll be interested to see how you find it Yeti..

I spent an hour tweaking mine, squared a piece of ali for another light..got a really nice finish on it as a result of my tweaking.
I managed to get about 2/3rds of the back lash out of the Y axis  thought i could do the same to the X axis but the hand wheel fitting is different..
On the Y axis, lock the table and undo the two nuts holding the hand wheel on to the acme screw.
Push against the hand wheel and turn it to undo, you will create a gap between the back of the hand wheel and the rotating measuring indicator. wind the hand wheel in and take out all the gap then do the nuts up. you'll need to turn the first nut out quarter of a turn then lock the second one against it.

I'm probably going to make a steel plate to stiffen up the column, I'll also probably loose the big washer that sits in between the column and the big nut. Aparently they are concave (hollow in the middle) so cant see that being much use.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Goldigger said:


> I'll be interested to see how you find it Yeti..
> 
> I spent an hour tweaking mine, squared a piece of ali for another light..got a really nice finish on it as a result of my tweaking.
> I managed to get about 2/3rds of the back lash out of the Y axis  thought i could do the same to the X axis but the handle is different..
> On the Y axis, lock the table and undo the two nuts holding the handle on to the *ball screw*.


Is this on the SX2 or do you have one of the Warco units as well? I ask because I was unaware the SX2 came with ball screws


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

emu26 said:


> Is this on the SX2 or do you have one of the Warco units as well? I ask because I was unaware the SX2 came with ball screws


Sorry meant acme screw, pretty sure thats what the original ones are on the SX2.
Might even be called a lead screw..who knows. anyway that big threaded rod that makes the table move when you turn it


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Goldigger said:


> Sorry meant acme screw, pretty sure thats what the original ones are on the SX2.
> Might even be called a lead screw..who knows. anyway that big threaded rod that makes the table move when you turn it


They're Acme lead screws As far as I know the warco mill come with anti back lash adjustable split nuts, just not very good ones. If I have to I'll try and make some brass or bronze ones on the lathe.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

yetibetty said:


> They're Acme lead screws As far as I know the warco mill come with anti back lash adjustable split nuts, just not very good ones. If I have to I'll try and make some brass or bronze ones on the lathe.


You can even make them out of delrin 
http://www.fignoggle.com/machines/x2mill/howTo-antiBacklashNutAcetal.htm


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Goldigger said:


> You can even make them out of delrin
> http://www.fignoggle.com/machines/x2mill/howTo-antiBacklashNutAcetal.htm


I love machining out of Acetal. So fast, so clean, no brass swarf to get embedded in my fingers


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Having read 1-9 on here http://www.fignoggle.com/library/backlash.htm about backlash and lead screw accuracy, its enough To put you off cnc-ing your own mill.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Goldigger said:


> Having read 1-9 on here http://www.fignoggle.com/library/backlash.htm about backlash and lead screw accuracy, its enough To put you off cnc-ing your own mill.


That can be a problem. An accurate ball screw can cost big $$$$, for my mill the cost would be about $3000 for the axis's. However you can almost eliminate all the backlash by making new 1/2 nuts from leaded bronze that can be adjusted against each other to give the correct pro-load on the lead screw. Having a lathe in the shed makes this job far easier


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Bloody hell we are making lights not parts for the space shuttle .

I can see the tinkering gene being satisfied by diy cnc upgradeing a manual mill .
its in the journey . 

certainly not an option I would want to follow I have lost far too many brain cells to learn 
cad./cam .even if I got the machine sorted out 

but good luck and I will enjoy reading about the trip


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

I'm hoping Goldigger goes first so I can learn from his mistakes.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I'll have to price it up first, before i make the decision..
It might just be easier to keep it manual for the time being, but would be nice to not have to mess about with the rotary table when i need to cut round holes..Just machine one side at a time..job done 

But then again, i want to build a space ship


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

emu26 said:


> I'm hoping Goldigger goes first so I can learn from his mistakes.


Hey i dont make mistakes

....

If i do i dont tell anyone


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Goldigger said:


> Hey i dont make mistakes
> 
> ....
> 
> If i do i dont tell anyone


Sorry, that was meant to read "lessons" not mistakes.

At the risk of jinxing myself, the CFO just said yes


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I got the quote back today from zapp automation for the CNC conversion
Not to bad either.. just need to add ball screws and nuts..
1 x SY85STH118-6004B Nema 34 Stepper motor £71.42 
1 x PCPPS-3 £20.00 
2 x PM542 Microstepping Driver £85.90 
1 x 2M880N Microstepping Driver £75.00 
2 x SY60STH88-3008 Nema 23 stepper motor £50.50

Sub-Total: £302.82 
Shipping: £0.00 VAT (20%): £60.56 
Total: £363.38


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

Goldigger said:


> Having read 1-9 on here http://www.fignoggle.com/library/backlash.htm about backlash and lead screw accuracy, its enough To put you off cnc-ing your own mill.


still, at least I understand what all you peeps are on about now.

I'm off to go sharpen my axe..


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Goldigger said:


> I got the quote back today from zapp automation for the CNC conversion
> Not to bad either.. just need to add ball screws and nuts..
> 1 x SY85STH118-6004B Nema 34 Stepper motor £71.42
> 1 x PCPPS-3 £20.00
> ...


You could always build your own now that you have a mill to build one with.

I actually started building my own (manaually operated only thank you) and got quite far into the project but you have to have a mill to build a mill so gave up. I may continue with it in the future.

Looks easy enough    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/verti...g/96410-diy_aluminum_vertical_mill_build.html


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Nice find Yetti. I think you have found my next project

I use those linear slides in alot of my automation equipment. http://www.automation4less.com/linearh.htm. Being hardened, ground and sealed they are excellent as long as you lubricate the reciprocating ball bearing ever now and then.

The hardest part will be finding alloy of that size over in aus so it might be more practical to make them out of steel with a nice lattice to brace it.


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## bravellir (Nov 24, 2008)

interesting ..

http://hackaday.com/2011/05/12/adding-a-tachometer-to-the-sx2-mini-mill/


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Here's a good thread on how to allign the spindle to the column and cnc conversion on the X2
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist...823481bafa792368c4db05aaf4f3aa0&topic=10517.0


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

OK, so without giving too much away I have a question for you all.

You have an opportunity to buy direct from a chinese manufacturer at a greatly reduced price. This is from an enquiry that you have initiated through a genuine manufacturers website, I believe it to be genuine because it is linked from countless other forum pages and the same website returns on several different wed search engines.

Your intitial enquiry is answered promptly and you are directed to their "international sales consultant" with whom you have exchanged about a dozen emails asking numerous questions on the topic. Everything appears above board. They are clear from the start that payment is by T/T to their bank account and the goods will ship with in x days of them receiving payment. I have no feeling of "this is a scam" and no concerns other than I have never bought anything internationally without the protection of either paypal or my cc company. Question is what is a T/T payment, is it just another term for direct deposit or electronic transfer?

Do you go ahead and take a risk knowing that you have either just snared a great buy or made a sizable donation to the Chinese economy without any recourse should the goods not show up? It is not a case of this price is too good to be true but more a case of this price is what I would be paying if I lived elsewhere in the world.

Insurance is included in the total invoice cost but organised by the sender.

The shipping company, including all the details given to me by the seller, appear to be genuine and they do have an office based here.

The company is a fairly well known name in this field and I would hope has a reputation it would like to preserve.

Thoughts please?


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

T/T payment is telegraphic transfer or simply wire tranfer...dont be put off by the fact its chinese, after all where was my mill manufactured? China.. 

Here's something i found on google on the subject..not that the L/C part matters here

T/T means telegraphic transfer, or simply wire transfer. It's the simplest and easiest payment method to use. 

T/T payment in advance is usually used when the sample and small quantity shipments are transported by air. The reason why is that the documents like air waybill, commercial invoice and packing list will be sent to you along with the shipment by the same plane. As soon as the shipment arrives, you can clear the customs and pick up the goods with the documents. As it's acknowledged, T/T payment in advance presents risk to the importer if the supplier is not an honest one.

The L/C payment procedure is usually as follows:

a. You (the importer) applies to open the L/C to us (the seller) through a bank who can open the L/C in your country. 
b. The opening bank will inform The Bank of China that the L/C has been opened. 
c. The Bank of China will inform us that the L/C has been established. 
d. We'll check all the terms and conditions listed in the L/C. If all terms and conditions are acceptable, we'll arrange the shipment within the time specified in the L/C. 
e. After the goods are loaded onto the ship without any damage, the captain will issue the clean bill of lading to us. 
f. We will submit the clean bill of lading and other relevant documents to The Bank of China to gather the payment. Only with clean bill of lading can you claim the ownership of the goods.
g. The Bank of China will send the clean bill of lading and relevant documents to your bank (the opening bank). 
h. The opening bank will inform you that all documents are received. 
i. You will go to the bank to make the payment to get the clean bill of lading and relevan documents. 
j. With all of these documents, you can clear the import Customs and pick up the goods after the goods arrive on the destination sea port.

L/C is used for the larger quantity order shipped by sea. 

The typical L/C scenario takes 14-21 days to complete.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Here's a link from Alibaba about payment methods to international or in this case chinese traders

http://resources.alibaba.com/article/44/Popular_payment_methods_in_international_trading.htm

*TT or Cash Advance*
T/T is the easiest payment from and is typically used when samples or small quantity shipments are transported by air.

T/T is also used between buyers and sellers who have already established a mutual trust, as this negates the risks associated with this, the fastest and cheapest form of payment.

Documents like air waybills, commercial invoices and packing lists will be sent to you along with the shipment in the same aircraft.

As soon as the shipment arrives, you, with documentation, can clear the customs and pick up the goods. Shipping happens only after money is safely in seller's ****.

It usually takes 3-4 days for such a wire transfer anywhere in the world.

*Risk *- 100% buyer risk

*Letter of Credit (L/C)*
The L/C is a guarantee, given by the buyer's bank, that they will pay for the goods exported, provided that the exporter can provide a given set of documents in accordance with clauses specified in the L/C and in a timely manner.

The technical term for letter of credit is "Documentary Credit."

Letters of credit deal in documents, not goods. Thus, the process works both in favor of both the buyer and the seller.

Simply put, a letter of credit is a letter written by the importer's bank to the exporter. It verifies that the payment will be guaranteed when the bank is presented with concrete documents (bills of lading and freight documents).

Most letters of credit are "irrevocable" once the importer has had them sent, which means it cannot be changed unless both the buyer and seller agree. 
Click here to see a letter of credit flow diagram

*Risk*- Evenly shared


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks for explaining the T/T bit. It is a small one off purchase so it kind of makes sense and does confirm that risk is all with me, so no recourse should the goods never arrive.

But you failed to answer the real question, and you know more of the details than most, do you dive in and take that risk?

You know I only want people to say yes so I have someone to blame should something go wrong


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

emu26 said:


> Thanks for explaining the T/T bit. It is a small one off purchase so it kind of makes sense and does confirm that risk is all with me, so no recourse should the goods never arrive.
> 
> But you failed to answer the real question, and you know more of the details than most, do you dive in and take that risk?
> 
> You know I only want people to say yes so I have someone to blame should something go wrong


I had to transfer £650 to a dive resort in the Philipines that i had only established contact through a website and email.
This was direct from my bank account to a filipino bank account, obviuosly i was a bit hesitant but all was fine.

It all boils down to do you trust the seller?

Edit, to be honest if multiple sources point to the one place you have contact with then id be confident that it's legit..

any links i can have a look at?


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## lachstar2 (Jul 16, 2007)

Have you asked whether they will accept credit card/paypal if you pay the extra charge? Also if they have their own website, see how long they have been on it for. If they are a scam they will most likely not be registered for long, 2-3 months. If you can get a phone number, call up and ask questions which require some knowledge/understanding of what they are selling. Just a few things to try. My general rule for buying stuff direct from China is, spend what you can afford to loose. If loosing the money from this purchase stops you from buying a mill then buy it from somewhere where you know you will get it, not a box of shoes


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Emu i'm curious as to what excessories you'll be getting along side your mill?

From my experience id get:
1.100mm milling vice. It's tempting to skimp on the vice, but you really need something thats precision made. I use a 80mm tool makers vice








Try to get one with slots on the side rather than holes. you need an precision one so that when you indicate it to the spindle the edge of the vice is perfectally flat that you run the DTI over.
2. Rotary table, there's two problems i find with the rotary table. You can buy either one with 3 or 4 t slots. 3 slot lets you mount a 3 jaw chuck and 4 jaw lets you mount a 4 jaw chuck.
2nd problem is mounting bits directly to the rotary table can be frustrating! little space and not enough room for the cutter because the clamp bolts are in the way of the chuck/mill chuck.

3.A broad selction of 2 slot end mills. I've found HSS is crap, i have a selection of cobalt ones that I'm happy with. anything smaller than 2mm id say go carbide, but dont forget to spin them faster than HSS as they will shatter.

4. A broad selcetion of drill bits, get more than one of the smaller sizes as no doubt you'll snap a load like me and Chris do. Which reminds me i need to order a load of 1.6/2.0/2.5mm bits.

5. Machinist square, you'll need this when squaring things in the vice.
6. You'll need a DTI to indicate the vice and rotary table to the spindle.








7. DTI holder, persoanlly i made one from 10mm ali bar that goes in the chuck. I used this to tram the mill. But if you want to check the mill's spindle is true to the Y axis you'll need one with a magnetic base.








8. Digital vernier.
9. DRO for X and Y and Z if you can be bothered, persoanlly i do the maths and use the fine feed. I may add a DRO to the Z if i dont CNC my mill.
10. Dont bother with a slitting saw..
11. I didnt bother with a clamping kit as i find that there just to big for most of the lights that im making, plus the vice does the job. Assuming you buy a 4 inch rotary table, the clamps are also a bit on the big side.
12. Most importantly somewhere level and sturdy to put the mill.
13. Edge Finder
14. Parrallels, i made my own..
15. edit.. I forgot some form of mill holder or chuck..choose between posilock 4 collets for all mills up to 16mm, uses clarkson threaded shank end mills, or er32 1 collet for 2 sizes of end mill..

Just thought id help out, as i found in my first few weeks i needed something to complete what i was doing. So it was on the internet ordering what i needed while the project went on hold again. No doubt I've missed a few things like taps etc but i assume you have all that already.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Got a phone call today asking if I mind if they deliver 4 days early:thumbsup:

This thing is heavy. Managed to get it just inside the front door so it will have to come apart to get it upstairs.


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

Nice!
Don't hurt yourself moving that thing then you won't be able to use it.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Very nice yetti.
Looks good and solid. Happy chipping.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

yetibetty said:


> Got a phone call today asking if I mind if they deliver 4 days early:thumbsup:
> 
> This thing is heavy. Managed to get it just inside the front door so it will have to come apart to get it upstairs.


Id tell the mrs that you need to test it before hauling it upstairs, just encase there is something wrong with it 

I sometimes get my mrs to hold the hover nozel near the cutter while im plunge milling 
:thumbsup:


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Emu if you do get the SX2 is advise adding the backplate and removing the concave washer as described here http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/3032973/292114156/name/Column+Flexing+in+the+Minimill+-+revision+1.pdf

and also here http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=7098.0

Im going to measuer the column width tonight of mine and add the steel plate on the back, I wont be filling it with epoxy, instead i'm going to insert a lump of metal plate into the column from the bottom that is the same width as the inside of the column.
This will then illimiante the flex caused by clamping pressue of the big nut.

When I've done that i'll measure the Y axis alignment to spindle and shim if it's still needed.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

The drones have arrived...


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

led lights not just for bikes...


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Finished my back plate today, had to mill the surface that is in contact with the back of the column. Not the best finish but at least its flatter than it was to start with.
Snapped a drill bit drilling one of the holes! which has cost me a few end mills trying to get the bugger out!








Didnt make a brace bar like some people did, as you can see i drilled my first set of holes in the wrong place! I used some M8 threaded studding, put a washer and nut in between the back plate and base. Tightened this nut up against the base, then tightened the nuts that pull the back plate back in in equal increments.
The holes in the steel plate that the M8 studs go through, i drilled 1mm larger so i've got so play for adjustment when tramming.









Just need to tram it and maybe shim it for the y axis.

edit:
Turned the nuts around inbetween the backplate and base. nip up the outside ones equally and then tighten the inside nuts up nice and tight, then tighten the outside ones up again.

I wonder if i should use the bottom nuts to adjust the Y tram, or should i just shim the spindle housing if needs be?


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

Finished up putting a treadmill motor, controller and tach on the Taig this weekend. No more pulley changes for me. =]


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

kan3 said:


> Finished up putting a treadmill motor, controller and tach on the Taig this weekend. No more pulley changes for me. =]


kan3, I hope you have better luck than me. I like a good old A/C motor and pulleys as there are no electronics to blow up and it only takes a short time to move a belt to a different pulley.
I managed to get around 5 mins of life from my new mill before it blew up and new PCBs are on their way from Warco. Mine is a very solid, rigid machine let down by poor chinese DC electronics.

I can however see that the DC motor and electronics will be good for CNC


From New mill arrived on 16/05/2011


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

If you have issues with the next board let me know and I can send you to some links to some decent lower cost controllers. I'm using a mc60 in mine which does 8A output at 130VDC and can be had for cheap used.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Cheers Kan, lets hope the replacements work OK.

I run it for a few hours with no load to run the bearings in and it was fine but as soon as I gave it some work to do it all went BANG.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Well i turned 39 today and have treated myself to a ZX-45 mill (i too was surprised that my wife said yes). http://www.boltonhardware.com/category/bolton-tools/metal-lathes-milling-machines/mill-drill/gear-head-milling-machine.php I have make a 9 hour round trip to pick it up but the price was good so I'm getting a little excited. I'll post some pictures when I have it home safely.

At 330kg it's going to be fun getting it onto the workbench. I think the 1st thing I am going to do is to make a 4th axis lathe attachment with 32mm bore chuck, with the turning tools mounted to the head . This way can use the lathe as a mill and will have a 4th axis for when the cnc conversion is complete..

My wife just came in and reminded me that to get the mill in the shed, 1st it needs to be cleaned out This is something I overlooked in my excitement. I hate cleaning.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

39 years old.... is it legal to be that young?

Good luck with the mill (mine is working now). How are you going to move it to the bench? Mini crane?


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Thanks Yeti. What do they say, your only as old as the woman you feel so really I am only 35. 

Glad to hear your mill is up and running. I'll have to get the engine crane into the shed to pick her up I think.


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## mfj197 (Jan 28, 2011)

... and of course, happy birthday brad72! Good luck with the mill - sounds like it should be sturdy enough anyway!


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Well after 11 hours of driving I finally got the mill home. Being second hand I was a little concerned I might drive all that way and find out it was crap but it is in immaculate condition and has been well looked after. It probably helps that the previous owner was a machinest and used the mill to make steam engines.

It certainly is a solid bit of gear which is excellent, so now just to make some room in the shed, by a vice and collet set and make some chips:thumbsup: It's already been set up for coolant so that's one less job to do.

Certainly felt all 300Kg getting her on and off the trailer.


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Congratulations on your new addiction Brad (and happy birthday too)! Looks like a nice solid mill, and the 2HP motor should be excellent.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Yeti are you serious, electronics went poof the first time you used it? Man, I hope they replaced them under warranty without any hassles.

Have you used it in anger yet?


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Emu, Yes they went *BANG* with the first tiny little test cut.

Got to say that Warco were very good and just posted me everything electrical no questions asked the next day. Even though it was only one PCB blown so I have loads of spare parts including displays for the rev counter and such.

It works a treat now (after the usual setting up required) and is very quiet even with it's gear drive(hardened gears). The column is fixed and doesn't tilt, only the head can rotate, this setup makes it very rigid and the rotating head means it could also be used as a lathe if required.

I have managed 4mm deep cuts(in one pass) with an 8mm carbide cutter and it is happy. But I am still wary of Chinese electronics so won't push it any more.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Nice work mate.

good to see you haven't mucked around with cheap accessories either


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Nice setup Yeti. Beam shots to follow by the looks of it. 

Love the swarf brushes


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

just looking around for accessories at the moment.

This is about the cheapest I have seen a rotary table and it comes with dividing plates. What say those with infinitely more experience than I?


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

emu26 said:


> just looking around for accessories at the moment.
> 
> This is about the cheapest I have seen a rotary table and it comes with dividing plates. What say those with infinitely more experience than I?


this should help..
Shop Fox is owned by Grizzly and Steelex is owned by Shop Fox. Grizzly sells Grizzly stuff directly from Grizzly only. Shop Fox stuff is usually almost identical to Grizzly, except sporting 2 year warranty versus 1 year for Grizzly. Shop Fox is sold through retailers other than Grizzly. Steelex is a new line from Shop Fox/Grizzly that is "value based". The items are identical to others manufacturers and are not in the Grizzly/Shop Fox line. I guess Grizzly/Shop Fox wants equipment original to their company only, ie no rebadged brands of competitors. The Steelex line seems to be exactly that.

http://woodstockint.com/


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Hey emu,

Here is an aussie seller http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/400171603610?hlp=false

Dividing heads are good but mainly if you are cutting gears etc. A regular rotary table would suit your needs just fine but if the price is right...

We have an trade expo up here in Toowoomba with a couple of tooling companies displaying. I'll see what their best price is for a vertex or similar 4" rotary table

brad


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

heres the link for the 4inch from the home site for steelex and shop fox
http://www.woodstockint.com/4-Rotary-Table-with-Divider-Plates/M1077/

I'f i was going to buy another rotary table i would get a 6inch, I know its pretty big, but the 4inch is just a pain in the butt as there is little space for clamping things. 6 ich will be more rigid to


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

That steelex is a rebadged grizzly 4 inch rotary table
Image from grizzly site - https://www.grizzly.com/products/4-Rotary-Table-w-Indexing/H5940









Image from woodstockinc of the steelex - https://www.woodstockint.com/4-Rotary-Table-with-Divider-Plates/M1077/


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

well if you go 6" then http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/270744167599?hlp=false#ht_5439wt_1140


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

emu26 said:


> just looking around for accessories at the moment.
> 
> This is about the cheapest I have seen a rotary table and it comes with dividing plates. What say those with infinitely more experience than I?


Good things are the 4 T slots as a lot of 4inch tables only have 3, It can be used horizontally or vertically and has a nice way of mounting to the table.

However the lock thats holds the rotary position looks feeble as is the MT#1 centre bore. Better would be MT#2.

If the price is very good then it could be worth it but the index plates will be of no use unless you are going to make your own chain rings and cassette......and why not

Looks like it's based on the design in the workholding section of this site http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks again for all the replies and the links.

will a 6" fit on an SX2?


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

emu26 said:


> Thanks again for all the replies and the links.
> 
> will a 6" fit on an SX2?


I personally wouldn't put a 6" rotary table on my mill and my table is a bit bigger than the SX2. A good quality 6" rotary table will be incredbly heavy for a small mill.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

emu26 said:


> Thanks again for all the replies and the links.
> 
> will a 6" fit on an SX2?


Yes it will fit, someone over on cnczone uses one..cant remeber the url..
just got to watch the stack height..

https://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Accessories/Rotary_tables/rotary_tables.htm



















All boils down to the size of lights your going to make..


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Found it...the Hoss himself uses a 6 inch on the X2, anyone who reads cnc zone will know who the hoss is.. 
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop_machines/126191-recommended_tooling_x2_mini-mill-4.html


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

:madman: 
Damn, just got the invoice from the logistics company at this end, $285 for port charges and that doesn't include the customs broker. Hmm, that much for .6 cu m box that weighs 60kg and cost less than $700

Tools will have to wait another month by the looks of it:incazzato:


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

emu26 said:


> :madman:
> Damn, just got the invoice from the logistics company at this end, $285 for port charges and that doesn't include the customs broker. Hmm, that much for .6 cu m box that weighs 60kg and cost less than $700
> 
> Tools will have to wait another month by the looks of it:incazzato:


Mate that just sucks. Only the plus side how long till she arrives


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Ship docks on Monday. I'm guessing it'll be off the ship and cleared customs by Tuesday sometime and then I'll have to pick it up asap or they'll no doubt then charge me storage fees


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Ok, so I have it in my hot little hands, well actually sitting on the garage floor. Haven't started cleaning it yet, too tired from watching Le Tour, but have been looking for "accessories".

It's a sieg SX2 and came with a drill chuck fitted, its MT3. So, are collet chucks worth the investment? If I buy an ER set, what size do I need, or more importantly what size can I use? I know the holder has to be MT3 and from what I have found it would appear MT3 are best suited to Er25 or ER 32 but I am having trouble finding either of those sets with an MT3 collet chuck.

This fleabay seller has a good range of well priced collet sets and a great range of collet chucks but not in the combination I believe I need. any advice / suggestions?


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

That is great news. I'd guess that if they gave Frodo a choice of returning the ring to Mount Doom or ordering a mill from China, he would take the ring  

Is there a reason you want to use the ER type collets? Several MT3 collets in the smaller sizes would probably be cheaper and you will get more clearance. The tradeoff is speed, but with a manual mill does it matter if you save 20 seconds changing a collet - or am I missing a point (I still use R8 collets)? If you get the MT3 collets, it may not be worth getting a set though since most endmills you will probably end up using will be small sizes (I'm pretty sure I have not used any collets larger than 5/8" yet).


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

I use the ER 25 collet system with all of the sizes so that I can also use them to hold all of the drill bits I have. I don't like the Idea of removing the collet chuck and maybe messing up settings in order to fit the drill chuck every time I want to drill a hole. Then putting it all back again to do milling.

Takes up some Z though but it saves faff.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

ER25 can hold 1-25mm shanks, ER32 1-32mm shank
Note you need to by a load of different collets to hold your end mills etc for use with these. but collet will hold two different sizes in most cases. So if you have a 2mm collet that will hold 1 and 2mm shanks i believe.

I use a posilock chuck, it uses 4 collets that are 6,10,12 and 16mm. The posilock uses endmills/slotdrills with a clarkson thread. End mills with a clarkson thread are 6,10,12,16mm shanks and upwards.
Obviously the weekness is that the chuck only allows you to use 16mm endmills(biggest) and the smallest endmill i have seen a with a 4mm shank is a 2mm.
Here's a 16mm clarkson slot drill









Screwed intro a 16mm collet









In the posilock chuck - notice the lack of head room when using a chuck on a rotary table.









I also have some MT3 collets..which are great when you need head room..but could work out expensive


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Previous post updated...


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks for the replies guys.

I had been thinking about the collets because I have read several times how the MT3 tends to get stuck and needs to be removed with blows by a mallet. The less I have to do this, the better I will be. 

I had never really envisaged myself running out of headspace with the SX2 and theprojects I am ikely to be doing, but who knows what the future will hold. I see though that things can get cramped when using a chuck on a rotary table although I can't see a need for me to use that set up, yet. I had only ever thought of using clamps and T nuts to hold things to a rotary table.

As for getting the set versus individual ones you are correct that it will be cheaper just getting the ones I need now, i can get them for about $10 each with postage so that might run to about $40 where as the 10 piece sets are about $55 including postage. Just need to find a suitable holder think.

Thanks again for the suggestions


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Ausie ebay
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4mm-16mm...95?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item588eedbf93


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

emu26 said:


> Thanks for the replies guys.
> 
> I had been thinking about the collets because I have read several times how the MT3 tends to get stuck and needs to be removed with blows by a mallet. The less I have to do this, the better I will be.


Good point on having to remove them with a mallet, I sometimes have to tap the drawbar a few times (lightly) to loosen some of the collets (R8). They have never been really stuck, but it can be a bit of stress relief to bang on something with a hammer, takes me back to my caveman roots.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I always have to tap the drawbar with a mallet...you dont need to beat the crap out of it, just need to keep tapping it untill it comes out.

With ragards to using clamps on the rotary table, thats one area that i hate. Picture this..
You have a piece of 30mm round bar you you need to mill a hole in the end for your leds, lets say its a 20mm quazzle board.
You only have 5mm of clamping space around the hole your milling to use, plus getting the dam thing centred is a right ball ache when using clamps. Thats why i devised the drilling a hole and tapping it method in the centre.

Putting a chuck on the rotary table is a lot quicker for setup times, using a independant 4 jaw chuck makes centering odd shapes easy.
Of course there are self centering 4 jaw chucks, which are fine if the piece you are milling is square or round.


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Goldigger said:


> I always have to tap the drawbar with a mallet...you dont need to beat the crap out of it, just need to keep tapping it untill it comes out.


I call it tough love :thumbsup:


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

I bought my er32 mt3 collet and arbor set from Hare and Forbes. The only thing is that the drawbar thread is 1/2", not M12 so i made another draw bar up. I do also use mt3 collets as they have the advantage of reduced size so it can be easier to see the work especially when using small diameter endmills that are only protruding a small amount to reduce tool flex and chatter

Regarding having to hit the drawbar with a mallet i aways have to. To me it is a good sign as you know there is a perfect fit into the morse taper. 

Have fun with it


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

OK, so I still haven't started cleaning the mill yet but my DTI arrived yesterday and I must say I am confused. I ended up getting this one but the needle on the dial only seems to go in one direction, clockwise, regardless of whether the gauge needle is pushed forward or back.

Before I contact the seller and tell them they have sent me a dud I thought I would embarrass myself among friends by checking to see if there is some screw or other such mechanism I need to operate to get the needle moving both clockwise and counter-clockwise? I am assuming it is meant to move both ways, otherwise what is the point of having the graduations marked the way they are?


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

emu, is there a little switch on the side like this one?


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

you can adjust the needle. Find the low point and adjust from there. The real ones work the same way, I'm not sure why the dials are symmetric


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

yeti, no switches or levers anywhere to be seen.

unterhausen, I am assuming you mean I can reset the dial to zero and then adjust the work piece from there and I can do it that way with this DTI. I had seen vids of people tramming mills etc and the dial went both ways so you knew which way you had to move the item. My concern is as these aging eyes continue to degrade the amount that the needle moves might be such that I can't see in which direction it is actually moving, if that makes any sense. I would have assumed the idea of graduations going in both directions on the dial was to allow you to determine the direction the work piece was out


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

what I meant was that you set the indicator up so that it's touching the workpiece in the middle of the travel, and then zero the dial. Don't start from where the spring in the indicator is fully relaxed. A plunger style indicator doesn't work if the plunger is all the way extended either. 

Mostly I was telling you that the indicator is working properly, at least that's the way a Brown and Sharpe Bestest works. A Bestest is about $300, and it's what the makers of your indicator were copying when they designed it.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

OK, thanks for the clarification, that makes sense.

I guess the question that leaves me with then is lets say I'm squaring a vice to the mill head and I start with the indicator zeroed at the centre of the vice. If it's only out say a fraction of a millimetre fro one side to the other, how do you know which side of the vice needs to move towards the back of the mill and which side needs to move towards the front? Does that sort of thing become obvious once you start working with it even if you can't tell by eye?

Thanks for the input, obviously I am very new to all of this


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

emu, you don't have a dud & unterhausen is correct. I usume that the hand rotates back anti clockwise wheh you let go of the stylus.

This is the spec of a very expensive Verdict DTI.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

it looks like that indicator stand doesn't have a fine adjust, which makes it a little harder. What I do is put the indicator close enough that it moves the hand a little, and then push it into the vice/workpiece with the fine adjust. I usually don't zero out the dial, but you can.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

emu26 said:


> OK, thanks for the clarification, that makes sense.
> 
> I guess the question that leaves me with then is lets say I'm squaring a vice to the mill head and I start with the indicator zeroed at the centre of the vice. If it's only out say a fraction of a millimetre fro one side to the other, how do you know which side of the vice needs to move towards the back of the mill and which side needs to move towards the front? Does that sort of thing become obvious once you start working with it even if you can't tell by eye?
> 
> Thanks for the input, obviously I am very new to all of this


Best to set your DTI to zero when at one end of the vice's fixed jaw and not in the centre of it.
That way you can compare the reading with the other end of the vice jaw as you move you mill table.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks guys, greatly appreciated.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Zero the dial and flick the needle just lightly back and forwards it should move the dial in one direction, but when you let go should return back to zero


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Yep GD, that's exactly what it does and between yeti and unterhausens replies I also now know how to use the thing properly.

Cheers guys.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Sorry replied on my phone so hadnt seen people replies..
anyway here's a couple of videos that can help..


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Well, I got a PM over the weekend asking how my milling was going and I was kind of embarrassed to reply because after what feels like an eternity, my mill was still sitting on the garage floor, bolted to the crate, uncleaned and never having had the power connected to it. Yes, I know, not even turned on but after the lack of response got from Sieg about them sending me the wrong power cord I was kind of in state of denial about whether or not it would work for fear of what I would do if it didn't.

Anyway, thanks to Yeti, I finally got off my ar$e, actually more like got on it, and started to clean up my SX2.

first thing to do was to check the connections in the circuits, I have heard of a couple being shipped with loose connectors which caused problems when power was connected. All good in there, I think.

Next was to spend a couple of hours cleaning all the red grease off the machine. Ideally it should be stripped right down, cleaned and rebuilt but hey, its taken me this long to do this, I really don't want to wait till my retirement to use it.

All cleaned up, time to connect the power. WTF? Oh no, why isn't it on? I know, because I'm a clutz, see that yellow box on the left, that has the power switch inside it. ah that's better, at least now the little green light came on.

And it works


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Good to hear that it works, but the pics are just red crosses. Might be my P.C

Take your time, bolt things to the table nice and tight and don't do this








Good luck.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Cant see your pics Stu...
How long till we see your first milled light?


I finally put a DRO on my Z axis, had it sitting on the side for a couple of months


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Don't know what is going on with the pics. They have been uploaded to the MTBR server so they should be there to see. I have had this problem with my pics and others in other threads as well. I can see them so not quite sure what is going on.

I'm off to NZ for a weekend biking at the end of October and would like to have a couple of smaller lights to take by then just so I'm not lugging my bigger 14.8v li-ion batteries through carry-on. Would be right pi$$ed if they got removed from luggage


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Strange thing is Emu, I can view them on my smart phone browser but not on my P.C


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

I think its a MTBR gremlin. Same thing was happening in this thread in the 29er Forum to both pics I had posted and ones others have posted


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

*Emu's lovely pictures*


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

How did you manage that?


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Haha, now its gone back to just the little square "there's meant to be a picture here" icon


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

It should be back now


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks Yeti. I still want to know how you did it?


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I can see all the pics on my HTC phone...couldn't on my laptop earlier..
Might be an issue with internet explorer 9..


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I've noticed that the file extension for your 3 pics emu is .jpe try changing it to .jpg or .jpeg


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

emu26 said:


> Thanks Yeti. I still want to know how you did it?


Can't tell you that as it would mean that I actually knew what I did

OK I saved them from my HTC phone browser to my phone then bluetoothed them to my laptop then from my laptop put them on my Picasa album.

They are all there now.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Remember this thread was all started because of the tiny Proxxon mill.

I found a nice picture of one


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Hey! What's that baby mill doing sitting on my mill?


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## rschultz101 (Oct 5, 2009)

what's more,
the whole mini mill, fits in that vice,... funny,
usually do like the mini stuff to be at least a little bit bigger then a decent size vice,...


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

actually Rob I think if you look closely it is sitting on the vice, not in it. I doubt even that vice would open far enough for the Proxxon to site into it.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

and now I have seen everything and all in the one box


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Well i don't know if I have been a good boy or not but Santa delivered a 3 axis DRO this morning for my mill so I think I know what I'll be doing over the weekend.

I am also adding an AL330A lathe to the back shed today so I'm not going to get any sleep.

Pity the in-laws are staying for the weekend though as that might put a massive dent in my plans.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

brad72 said:


> Well i don't know if I have been a good boy or not but Santa delivered a 3 axis DRO this morning for my mill so I think I know what I'll be doing over the weekend.
> 
> I am also adding an AL330A lathe to the back shed today so I'm not going to get any sleep.
> 
> Pity the in-laws are staying for the weekend though as that might put a massive dent in my plans.


What functions does yours support?

PCD, Line of holes?
Arc contouring and pocket milling functions?
Radius/Diameter display?

If yours does all this then im jeolous!

Absolute coordinates - Displays the position to the user-defined datum.
Incremental coordinates - Displays the new position relative to the previous position. 
Calculator - Standard functions including square root and trigonometric 
Pitched Circle Diameter (PCD) - For calculating the positions of equally spaced holes around a circle of user-defined diameter. 
Centre find - Calculates half the distance between two selected points.
Oblique line of holes - Calculates the equally spaced position of user-defined number of holes along a straight line at any angle. 
Pocket milling - Calculates the progressive milling from the center point of a rectangular inner pocket.
Angle processing - Allows a work piece to be aligned at a specified angle. 
ARC milling - Calculates the rough machining of an arc or radius, without the need for a rotary table. 
Sleep mode - Places the display console in a form of standby but will continue to read any scale movement and will display the new position once out of sleep mode.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Jay I bought this one eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d

So it has PCD
line of holes
radius / diameter selection
centre finding
Circular arc (convex and concave)
radius function (this one should be good to make different shapes)
inch/metric switching
data register, to remember previous 
mechanical zero point
Linear compensation to allow for machine wear to the taken into account (eg worn ways)
calculator function (great because my adding up is terrible)
absolute / incremental function
makes me cups of tea on demand
rubs my thigh lovingly when I get lonely in my shed.

Bring on the fun, once i have spent a day installing it


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

Should work well


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

KAN3 I have plans to convert my ZX-45 over to CNC down the track but I am looking at about $800 for the steppers and drivers and $1200-$1700 for the ball screws and nuts. Add to this brackets, pullies, belts etc I reckon I'll be around the $2500-$3000 mark.

I could do away with the ball screw and just use the existing acme threads but their accuracy is just no as good.

So for the money I would be better off buying one of these SYIL X4 CNC MILLING MACHINE(NEW) | eBay which can do 4th axis milling.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Dang! I have DRO envy. Mine doesn't do hole patterns or anything. I did get it working again though with ~$5 in parts from Radio Shack. I have become so used to having the DRO that while it was down I wouldn't run the mill. Seemed too difficult to count turns of the screw and count divisions on the dials.


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

I guess it would depend on what you plan on doing. A ZX45 isn't a small machine and I don't see you being able to use steppers, you'd be looking at servos plus 4th axis plus the costs like mentioned. At the same time, any of the 45 clones should outclass the syil in material removal. A 45 was always just outside the class of "hobby" for me but obviously not for others. The 20 would be my go to hobby mill on the cheap.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Vancbiker said:


> Dang! I have DRO envy. Mine doesn't do hole patterns or anything. I did get it working again though with ~$5 in parts from Radio Shack. I have become so used to having the DRO that while it was down I wouldn't run the mill. Seemed too difficult to count turns of the screw and count divisions on the dials.


I was going to go the cheap option with 3 encoders, a couple of pullies and a parallel port cable to my computer but laziness and being dazzled by the features and pretty lights swayed my thinking.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

kan3 said:


> I guess it would depend on what you plan on doing. A ZX45 isn't a small machine and I don't see you being able to use steppers, you'd be looking at servos plus 4th axis plus the costs like mentioned. At the same time, any of the 45 clones should outclass the syil in material removal. A 45 was always just outside the class of "hobby" for me but obviously not for others. The 20 would be my go to hobby mill on the cheap.


I was lucky with the ZX-45 because it came up pretty cheap and was in excellent condition. Had to drive a 12 hour round trip to pick it up but in Australia that is classed as a short drive

I must admit though I do enjoy manual milling and once you have converted over to CNC you are pretty much stuck with CNC.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Well Santa continues to amaze me and I have a lathe also. I knew sending him a present last year would pay off.

Now to work out how to get the 380kg brick down the side of the house and into my shed. Might have to make a dolly for it, or just leave it in the garage and my wifes car outside. Mmmmm, I'm sure that would go down well

Here's a picture of the lathe on the stands so it's a bit safer since my kids love to fiddle. Drip tray , chucks and steady are already in my shed.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

With all these tools Brad, I expect some mind blowing lights coming from your shed..
If not i think we have grounds to ban you from the forum


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Goldigger said:


> With all these tools Brad, I expect some mind blowing lights coming from your shed..
> If not i think we have grounds to ban you from the forum


I kind of have no excuses now do I


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

brad72 said:


> I kind of have no excuses now do I


Yes you do, you mentioned them in the last post, wife and kids, kind of get in the way of most of my selfish, fun stuff, but provide lots of other fun stuff to compensate. Just spent 5hrs doing xmas lights on the house, hope they work.

Tools, not toys, are looking great Brad, pretty soon you won't have to leave home to go to work


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

I have nearly got the DRO fitted to my mill. It takes so long having to get the scales and readers almost perfectly parallel.

Anyway I was ably to get my new tool rack installed as you can see from the picture below. Together with my bike stand (avatar picture) I don't think I'll get any work done.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

good to see that tool rack has a protective layer of lubricant on it already. :thumbsup:


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

emu26 said:


> good to see that tool rack has a protective layer of lubricant on it already. :thumbsup:


Well spotted. I think I'll have to apply a new coating every hour or so to be safe.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Hey Brad, you mentioned in your other thread that you don't like polishing. Looks like you have given it a good polishing to me.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

I wonder if this is why I look like this  I don't think it is too noticeable..............


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Brad when you get a chance, can you PM me the link to your new tool holder, I need to get one of those 

I've been working on a few upgrades too, nothing as sexy, but it will be a time saver:









Edit - the holes are centered to the working area on the mill - not the table itself - I know it looks weird, but it works.



















Instructions here (edit fixed link):

Mill Tips

Pinning the table will make setups much simpler, since all that alignment stuff is taken care of (also adding some pins to the tooling plate I use).


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

OK, so sick of not having yet used the SX2 in anger simply because I have nowhere to set it up, I have decided to build a stand for it these holidays out of some 4x4 and 4x2 pine I have lying around the house. I'll probably throw one of these worktops on it or similar Atleast then I can start using it.

As I don't yet have a permanent home to place it I would like the stand to be mobile and here in lies my question. If I put it on 4 lockable casters like these or even heavier duty ones, probably only two steerer ones and two uniderictional, will the stand be stable enough for doing the fairly light duty stuff , light housings only, that I will be doing?


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Mate it all depends on the quality of the Bunnings ones. I have quite a few of our process machines on 2 fixed and 2 lockable swivels and they are pretty sturdy but I use Richmond casters so may be a better quality but I'm not sure. 

Another option would be to mount 4 machine feet out from the casters to give an even more solid base. Just wind the feet up when you want to move the mill. 

A good solid and flat base like an off-cut of Caesar stone from a kitchen place will make your mill more accurate but for what we are doing it probably won't make all that much difference. 

Good luck with getting the chips flying.


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

When I was looking for casters (which I ended up deciding I would not need) I was gonna get something like these:

Be Mobile And Stable | Toolmonger

An Amazon review of them is not great though

I ended up just building a bench from 4x4, 2x4 and plywood.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks guys. I'm not sure if those stable casters will have enough clearance because my garage / workshop is carpeted so the rollers will sink in under the weight of the mill but they are a good idea and I think I could probably fashion something up similar.


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## Rich_SC (Oct 10, 2009)

I want to be able to do some simple milling. What would be better, a mill vice for a 1/3hp drill press or a mill vice for my 7x10 lathe?


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Rich_SC said:


> I want to be able to do some simple milling. What would be better, a mill vice for a 1/3hp drill press or a mill vice for my 7x10 lathe?


Hi Rich, is something like this what you are envisioning for a vice to mill using a lathe?

Milling in the Lathe

Seems like working left handed (for a righty), but a lathe would be more solid than a drill press. You could probably use the drill press, however chucking larger endmills in a regular chuck does not seem safe, possibly smaller ones would be OK, taking light cuts. Ideally a collet is best for endmills IMO. They also sell X-Y tables (as an alternative to a special vice) - just google "compound cross slide mill table" - though the more expensive ones are getting to 1/4 the cost of an x2 mill.


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## Rich_SC (Oct 10, 2009)

Yeah. I was looking at this:

LittleMachineShop.com - Milling Attachment, Mini Lathe

But I can get a cheap x-y vise for my drill press for 1/3 the cost... Will probably go that route.


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## ndrordr (Dec 11, 2008)

Rich,

You've got to be careful milling with a drill press. They are not designed for the side loading that will be imparted by the milling operations.

Rob


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## Rich_SC (Oct 10, 2009)

Rob...probably a good idea. After more searching I found a way of making a pretty cheap basic milling vise. I may make this one for under $30

Varmint Al's Mini Lathe Page


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

I used a Vertical mill slide on my first lathe for prior to buying a mill. They work really well.

If you were in Australia I could sell you my old one cheaply

This is the one I used for years and I bought morse taper collet holders to fit directly into my lathes spindle as they are more accurate than using the chuck to hold end mills


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

OK Rich, I haven't used a lathe, and don't even have the mill set up yet, but what I can give you advice about is one of those "cheap" x y vices for use in a drill press and using them in a drill press. If you have any other option then take the other option. Yes I managed to build a few lights with that set up but it lacks any real accuracy, stability, speed and at the end of the day will probably end up costing you more in broken cutters / drill bits and wear on the press, not to mention your time, than what you would have saved by buying the cheaper option in the first place.

If you have the lathe then forget the intitial additional outlay and get the mill post for the lathe, much better option.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Rich, I have done it both ways. Fist the drill press with an X Y vice mounted to it but as emu said it will just knacker the drill press and take ages to get less than accurate work done but I did it that way for over a year.

Then I bought a vertical slide for my tiny micro lathe and the results were fantastic but you must take the chuck off and use collets in the lathe spindle for it to work well. It can be a pain converting the machine back to lathe duties for turning and back to mill for milling and milling sideways is very odd but it works.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

yetibetty said:


> and milling sideways is very odd but it works


There is one nice thing about horizontal milling in that your chips mostly fall away from the cutter. I constantly have to brush or blow the chips out of the way of the cutter on my mill. It is a little easier to see what you are doing on a vertical mill though.


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## Rich_SC (Oct 10, 2009)

Thanks for all the great advice as usual.


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

I received an email from LMS today saying that they are doing a seminar in York, PA on Jan 13th, AND they will be giving away a CNC Mill (looks like the Sieg KX1) and some other stuff - cost is $60 and you do not need to be there to win. I emailed them and they said that they were only selling less than 100 tickets, but I decided not to buy one since I won't be going and did not want to cause them to loose a seat +I have a more capable mill already. It does seem like a great intro to CNC however for those interested and a deal even if you don't win (and attend):

LittleMachineShop.com - Seminar: "CNC in the Model Engineer's Shop: From Art to Part," at Cabin Fever Expo 2012


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## piesoup (Feb 9, 2009)

I too use a vert slide in a lathe. Takes a while making sure everything is aligned correctly but then it works rather well. I have a dividing head and a rotary table too.


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## piesoup (Feb 9, 2009)

Here is the rotary table


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Vancbiker said:


> There is one nice thing about horizontal milling in that your chips mostly fall away from the cutter. I constantly have to brush or blow the chips out of the way of the cutter on my mill. It is a little easier to see what you are doing on a vertical mill though.


Good point and very true. The other thing that I never thought about until I got my vertical mill was that the cutters never fell straight out of the collets when you loosen the nut.


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## Rich_SC (Oct 10, 2009)

Quick lathe question: can I use a milling bit in the tailstock for drilling? I'm looking for a largish bit to save me some time. Looking for something about 3/4" (19mm). I'd like the flat bottom a milling bit would give but don't know if it would work that well for drilling. Anyone with any experience with this?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Rich_SC said:


> Quick lathe question: can I use a milling bit in the tailstock for drilling? I'm looking for a largish bit to save me some time. Looking for something about 3/4" (19mm). I'd like the flat bottom a milling bit would give but don't know if it would work that well for drilling. Anyone with any experience with this?


I have done that. It's better, in my experience,to drill a small pilot hole then follow up with the mill. I sometimes drill with an end mill in my mill and I always use them for counterboring holes for allen bolts.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

It does work and I have done it a few times but only up to 12 mm. You must get a centre cutting end mill or you could end up with a pyramid at the bottom of the hole rather than it being flat. 
On the other hand though, a 19 mm end mill will be expensive and you will need a very big drill chuck to hold it in. You could buy a minature boring bar that can bore and face the bottom of a hole as small as 16 mm. Something like this: Chronos Ltd Minature Boring Tools


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## Rich_SC (Oct 10, 2009)

I realized I am limited by a 1/2" shank and I haven't seen any mill bits with a reduced shank. I'll probably just go with something like this one:

Drill bit


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

I have done 20mm holes with a reduced shank 4 flute end mill held in my tail stock. As others have said drill a counter hole first and run a really slow spindle speed to stop chatter and use a good cutting fluid.


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## Rich_SC (Oct 10, 2009)

Thx. I did find a good source of inexpensive mill and drill bits (in the US):

Wholesale Tool | Industrial Machinery + Tool Supply


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Well I have been slowly organizing my shed since adding the lather and managed to upgrade my tool holder that I posted a few pages to a tool holder plus saw hanger. I think it is quite usable since I never had a good place to hang my saw. Needless to say I cut as much wood as possible now so the saw in hardly never on the hanger...I wonder why.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

be very careful Brad, I hear those teeth are very sharp, you wouldn't want "her" to cut off the wrong wood.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Now your showing off Brad after I posted that pic of you at work


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

perhaps that's what he means by using a good cutting fluid?


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Jay I can see a very hot girl but I've been looking for hours and cannot see where the drill is in the picture


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Power tool heaven


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

:eekster:OMG:eekster:........that second one is, well,,,,,,,,perfect. Good luck getting any lights made now


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

troutie-mtb said:


> Power tool heaven


Fantastic Chris. Now I can't get it out of my head. Loved the power breaker not that I noticed the tool mind you


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

OK, enough of all the pretty toolholder pics, well just for now anyway. 

I just added another couple pieces to the mill tooling collection. Picked up this rotary table the other day off ebay. Local to me so no shipping which would have been horribly expensive as it weighs 125 lbs. Once my son gets his project off it, I have a block of alloy that is just crying to be made into something.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Very nice, Vancbicer. What size is it? At least you didn't have to remove the vice to fit it.

I made a compound/top slide for my micro lathe as it doesn't come with one but is an expensive optional extra. I'm tight so made my own. I can now make tapered lights at last.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

yetibetty said:


> Very nice, Vancbicer. What size is it? At least you didn't have to remove the vice to fit it.
> 
> I made a compound/top slide for my micro lathe as it doesn't come with one but is an expensive optional extra. I'm tight so made my own. I can now make tapered lights at last.


The rotary table is 12" or 300mm.

Yeti, that compound looks a work of art! Amazing!


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Thanks Vanc. I could actually sit my lathe on that 12 inch rotary table of yours (really)


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

*Here's my new tool...*

Definitely NOT a toy according to my boss....I shouldn't argue @ £30K for the 5 axis + £80k for the machine it's sitting on :thumbsup:


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Got a new toy for my tool, a 63mm Kyocera MEC series face cutter with coated carbide inserts. Cuts like butter and at an incredibly fast feed rate which = 10x more mess in far less time. Yey


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

How deep a cut can you take?
How about a little video of the butter cutter?
:thumbsup:


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

That's one way of getting that light head down to 100gms, will be a bugger doing the fine detailing with it though


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Only took a 5mm cut but will go deeper tomorrow and see if I can get a vid. Need to get the coolant running just to add a bit of lubrication to stop the alloy sticking to the inserts like it loves to do. Damn thing is rated to 30,000 rpm. That's just insane. 

Damn right GD in terms of making housing light, just might not have a housing left if I get too excited


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Ok, the video below is a 10mm cut in some 40mm thick x 80mm long alloy bar going at a feed rate that felt right through the crossfeed handle, finishing off with a light 0.5mm pass

The inserts are a PR1225 Megacoat grade and not alloy specific but for the cost of them I cannot afford to have 1 set for alloy and another set for steel/stainless. Certainly do the job though and with very little strain on the mill. Bit of a mess to clean up tough with the amount of chips that go flying. Time for a shroud around mill i think.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

double post


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

A loaded dual axle trailer is parked in front of my shop and I'm hoping the crane and operator can come by tomorrow to offload......



I've got myself a CNC mill. Tiny one as those go but still 4500 lbs. Next big hurdle will be getting a 3 phase power converter then figuring out all the problems. The controller's backup batteries have gone dead so it is going to take a bit to sort out. Pics to come once it is more than just a boxy lump under a tarp.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

congrats on the find Vanc, looking forward to the pics! What's the first project, a 21.5g light housing 

Try asking the homeshopmachinist guys, there are loads of threads on VFDs on there, eg.:
Shopping for a VFD..

Very helpful guys, with a smattering of grumpy old goats. Just like here really


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

phone pic with it in my shop. Door is kind of beat up from someone leaving the vise handle on and starting the cycle. Holds 10 different tools and automatically loads them into the spindle per the program. Now, if I can just get it running and figure out the controls.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

yeah, that's definitely a toy


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Vanc, you'll be having some fun with that. Such a huge machine for the man who makes the smallest things.

I have been busy adding power feed and other mods to my Taig lathe which now looks huge next to the 1940s lathe that I have just finished restoring. Time for me to start making things again


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

And the other two pictures......


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Yeti, that lathe rebuild is a gem! It'll need a display case built round it.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

beautiful stuff yeti, is it still accurate or just for show?


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

No emu it's not just for show and is already completely covered in swarf. It's as accurate now as it would have been in the 1940's.

The biggest hurdle to get over is that fact that it's so small so not going to get much use but it did manage to make it's own work light that's in the picture. Still don't know if I'll keep it or sell it but I enjoyed restoring it.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

wow, that is one beautiful little lathe!

that Taig looks awesome too, very futuristic next to the Wizard. Did you make that tail stock ram/ lever yourself?


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Yes Matt, made those bit's for the Taig and the lead screw support/bearing at the tail end, the index plate at the head end, the knobs and a million other bits. Once you have a lathe it can make parts for itself so it never ends.

The Wizard must be of a similar vintage to your lathe with the quirks you would expect but there is something nice about the old stuff.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

nice  Can you screw cut with that power feed too? That's one of the few drawbacks of Taig/ Sherline lathes.

I could do with fewer quirks to be honest. What I have is better than nothing without a doubt and the stuff I've done to it/ doing to it has probably given it 80% or so of the capability of a modern machine, but it's still a pain in the ar$e in many ways. I'm currently struggling to dial out some off axis movement in the spindle - if I tighten the spindle I can get it down to ~0.5mm at 20cm from the chuck, but then the chuck barely turns. With it loosened enough to get up to speed, it's >1mm. Which is great for turning tapers, not so much for cylinders! Now if I could get the headstock bored true and the spindle turned down for some taper roller bearings, that would be perfect..


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Can't cut threads yet but that is the next plan.I just have to make a countersharft for slow spindle speed.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

how will you adjust feedrate to make different thread pitches? Gears or electrotrickery?

what, you mean you can't thread at 2000rpm? Pft


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

It's to complicated to explain here but it will(hopefully)work with a few pulleys and belts.

A bit like this Emco lathe.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

ah, I see  Sounds like an awful lot of complicated maths involved!


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Mat, I'm going to do this in a very basic way. One pitch that doesn't even have to be an excepted or recognised pitch.
As long as I can make two parts that can screw together I'll be happy. Just have to make that counter shaft.

You have prompted me to get off may arse and I'll try and start it tomorrow.


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

You know Yetti I think some Module 1 nylon spur gears with brass hubs would be the simplest as there will be no risk of belt stretch of sinking into the pulley causing the pitch to change mid stream (think of a stretched belt in the old tape decks).

These would be perfect MOD 1 Plastic Spur Gears - Brass Hub


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Good idea Brad I like those and they are cheaper than the belts. Just got to do some maths and decide how many teeth.
I do have a good source for belts with zero stretch but then they could still slip and I never thought about the sinking into the pulley bit.

Thanks for the link.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

can't you just make your own gears? (yeah, I know, "just") Probably easier to buy them, but it's an option for that bespoke 132.5 tooth gear you just know you're going to need


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

mattthemuppet said:


> can't you just make your own gears? (yeah, I know, "just") Probably easier to buy them, but it's an option for that bespoke 132.5 tooth gear you just know you're going to need


Last year my wife brings me her electric pencil sharpener saying it quit working. On disassembly, I find a stripped gear. Aha says I, I can make a new one. And I did. Only took three hours. The thing works nicely and I am proud of myself. Later that night she shows me one can buy said gear off ebay for $9 with free shipping.:cryin:


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

Ah, but the satisfaction of sharpening a new pencil with your personally modified sharpener. That has to be worth $3/h, right?!


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

This is where the 3d printer comes in handy to just knock one up. Still don't know whether to sell or use my Up Mini 3D printer. It came as a bonus with my Cad package.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

made a little pulley to try, just so that I can get an idea of what size gears to buy. It only took ten mins to make and I can cut threads with a pitch of 1.0 or 1.25 mm (give or take).

Still haven't made the countershaft so cut the thread at 500 rpm :nono: No threading tool yet, I just ground a point on some steel for the test. There's hope yet and it's a start.

It is light related as the next light I make requires threads but I blew up my last XTE LED when it fell off the test heatsink running at 1.2A


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Looks like a pretty good result to me,,,well done

I started out with a boring bar and turning tool and used a tool sharpening screw cutting gauge to set the tool steel angle to either 55º or 60º like this one Screw Cutting Gauge 200 - Moore and Wright. At least you know then both are sharpened the same. You can pick one up for about 4 pounds on fleabay.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

you must have the reflexes of a cat to do that at 500rpm, well done! The pulley came out beautifully too, looks like a factory part.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Brad, I'll get one of those and also a thread gauge so that I can actually see what I'm producing, or ending up with.

Mat, I have lived in London all my life and jump if someone opens a bag of crisps but cutting a thread in half a second was a bit silly. The pulley was easy and anyone with a lathe, however crap it is can knock one out in a couple of mins...............including you


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

how'd you get the angles inside the V right? That's the only thing I'm not sure about.

I used my new "DROs" the other night to turn down a piece of mystery rod so I could thread it for a drill chuck. Managed to get it to within 0.2mm of the right thread OD and the die went on fine. Chuck threaded on perfectly although I had to turn down the end of the threaded section to fit depthwise. I was pleased as punch. Didn't have time to machine the taper, so I'll do that this weekend. Being able to see how far to cut and how much I was cutting at one time (about 0.3-0.5mm per pass) makes all the difference! Once I've done some practise machining a couple of heatsinks with the girls I'll be able to start on my new helmet light


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

mattthemuppet said:


> how'd you get the angles inside the V right? That's the only thing I'm not sure about.


Mat, you just grind a tool steel to the same V as the belt.

Have you cut that taper yet? I have only done a couple and have found it very difficult to get spot on.

My threading on the Taig lathe is getting there and I am more than pleased with the results and it will open up a whole new world as now I can think about things like lights with adjustable beams and screw on fronts (only took me six years to get around to doing this)























Just in case it's of use to anyone I used the fantastic method in this Youtube vid THREADING ON THE METAL LATHE WITHOUT A THREAD DIAL - YouTube


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## brad72 (Jun 12, 2009)

Ahhh, like a proud father holding his first born child


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

brad72 said:


> Ahhh, like a proud father holding his first born child


You're right Brad it was a bit like that. I'm really pleased at being able to cut threads on a lathe that was never designed to cut threads. I suppose I'll be making lots of things that screw together until the novelty wears off.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

yetibetty said:


> Mat, you just grind a tool steel to the same V as the belt.
> 
> Have you cut that taper yet? I have only done a couple and have found it very difficult to get spot on.
> 
> ...


great job, I'm very impressed! I think you need to thread a rod to screw on a hand to pat yourself on the back 

as to the V-tool - do you grind it to do a plunge cut (like with a cut off bar), cutting both sides at once, or do you groove the V to approximately the right depth then cut each side of the V in turn?

Haven't done anything in the garage recently save put a new battery in a digital caliper Vancbiker kindly gave me. I'm in the midst of applying for jobs and I had a Skype interview last night which took 3-4 days to prepare for and I have another one on Thursday. Plus I have to strip my bike down to get a snapped chainstay replaced.

But once I do have some spare time, I was planning to chuck up the old dead centre with taper out then use my tire gauge DTI on the tool post to set the angle of the compound to match that of the taper. Then I would chuck up the drill chuck with arbor, check that the piece doesn't have any run out and cut the taper without disturbing the compound angle. That's the theory anyway, no idea about the practice until I do it 

After that I'll chuck the arbor sideways and face a flat so I can drill and tap a hole for attaching another tire gauge.


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