# Do you have a Pinion gearbox bike, come on in!



## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

I wanted to create a thread where people could come to gather that have a Pinion gearbox bike. Sharing experiences, sharing tips and tricks and of course show your bike. There are a bunch of threads that are on German sites which kinda makes sense since its a German made product. But I have not been able to find a thread that is in English where anybody that has a Pinion gearbox bike can chime in and share. This is not a thread for derailleurs vs. gearbox. I myself have just ordered a Cheetah Mountain Spirit Enduro with a Pinion gearbox. Unfortunately it's a bit late due to my color choice of purple ano. :madmax:


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

I have a Nicolai Helius Pinion AC. It's a great bike.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Nice rig I have always had a soft spot for Nicolai. Do you find that the 18 gears are to much. What kind of riding style do you have.


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## Max24 (Jan 31, 2013)

crank1979 said:


> I have a Nicolai Helius Pinion AC. It's a great bike.


Great looking bike! I am really thinking about getting one as well. I could use a few more gears.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Unfortunately My new Bike has not come in yet but I can post her specs:

Enduro Mountain Spirit 27.5 2014
Frame Size - S
Wheel size - 650B front and rear
Rear Shock - RockShox Monarch Plus RC3 170mm Travel
Fork - RockShox PIKE RCT3 2P 160/130mm 15mm ML Tapered
Brakes - Avid Elixir 5 200/180mm*
Wheels - Pinion Hubs H.1*/Mavic EN321d
Tires - Schwalbe Hans Dampf 2.35
Headset - Cheetah Lola Tapered
Stem - Truvativ Holzfeller 50mm Black
Handlebar - Truvativ Hussefelt OS 700mm/40mm Rise
Seatpost - RS ! Reverb Stealth 420mm 
Saddle - SDG Bel-Air RL schwarz
Cranks - Pinion P1.18 30T
Gearbox - Pinion Getriebe Pinion P1.18 Color Purple
Shifter - Pinion Drehgriff Color Purple
Cassette - Pinion 32
Frame Color	- RAL 7000
Decals - White
Finish - Glossy


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

TPA8580 said:


> Nice rig I have always had a soft spot for Nicolai. Do you find that the 18 gears are to much. What kind of riding style do you have.


I've ridden it on pretty much everything but it excels on technical terrain.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

How many miles do you think you have put on her so far. Also did it take you long to get used to the box in terms of shifting?


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

I just saw on the their webpage that Pinion are bringing out a couple of new boxes.
MEET US AT EUROBIKE 2014 | PINION / P1.18 / DRIVE TECHNOLOGY


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

TPA8580 said:


> How many miles do you think you have put on her so far. Also did it take you long to get used to the box in terms of shifting?


It's probably have about 400km on it. It took a few rides to get used to using a gripshift mechanism and decreasing pedalling force to change to and easier gear, but it was really more about timing that decrease in force than doing anything differently to a derailleur system.

I'm hoping the make a lighter weight version with the same number of gears and range. It is a brilliant system.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

crank1979 said:


> It's probably have about 400km on it. It took a few rides to get used to using a gripshift mechanism and decreasing pedalling force to change to and easier gear, but it was really more about timing that decrease in force than doing anything differently to a derailleur system.
> 
> I'm hoping the make a lighter weight version with the same number of gears and range. It is a brilliant system.


And hopefully you can just swap it out with the one you have.


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## Jkj (Jan 8, 2012)

Hi, that is a interesting gear box  would you mind to explain how it work and can it be use on any bike ? I dont understand german. Many thanks


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Jkj said:


> Hi, that is a interesting gear box  would you mind to explain how it work and can it be use on any bike ? I dont understand german. Many thanks


Ok so here is the basics. The pinion gearbox has 18 gears housed in a single box. The box sits in the middle of the frame. As with pretty much all gearboxes the frame has to be purpose built (see photo):









Shifting is done via a twist shifter. I know a lot of people prefer triggers, I personally don't care as long as it works. The reason behind the twister from what I know is the fact that there is no counter force pulling the cable. With a derailleur the spring in the derailleur pulls the cable tight. The gearbox doesn't have that and thus a trigger is currently not available. However things may change this Eurobike as they are showing a bunch of new stuff.

Unlike some of the gearboxes this one will actually let you shift under load. Meaning you can shift whilst peddling. I think crank1979 is better at explaining if that is indeed the case. From what I have read on the internet it can be done but not with the force you may know when using a derailleur.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

TPA8580 said:


> I just saw on the their webpage that Pinion are bringing out a couple of new boxes.
> MEET US AT EUROBIKE 2014 | PINION / P1.18 / DRIVE TECHNOLOGY


It looks like a 12 speed and two 9 speed versions. No lightweight 18 speed?


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Yeah I saw that too. I'm curious if the new ones will fit on bikes with then 18 spd. version. A lighter version of the 18 would be nice. I think they first way to do it would be to make an enclosure that is made ouyt of a lighter material


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

So finally she is in.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

*Finally in after three months*

First pic.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

So, the Pinion gearbox is controlled by a cable-actuated gripshifter, which controls crank resistance?


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

It looks like those idler pulleys would take a few hits, or no?


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## michael9218 (Dec 17, 2006)

Interesting. Why does it require idler pulleys? 

It would seem to be a perfect application for a carbon belt drive. They show a belt drive in their brochure.

How much weight does it add to a bike?


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I imagine they need the pulleys to account for chain growth.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Looks like a taper steerer.. Head tube a straight 56mm or is it 1.5"? Interesting dimensions on the Cheetah...


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Zachariah said:


> So, the Pinion gearbox is controlled by a cable-actuated gripshifter, which controls crank resistance?


I wouldn't call it resistance there are 18 real gear in there. But yeah it uses a twister shifter which has been a many years ago for me. But I have to say I'm a flexible guy so I really don't care trigger or twister.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

I haven't heard anything about that. It must be said that when the bike is using it's travel in the rear that the pull is actually pulled back wards and up. This way it actually eliminates the risk of bumping into anything.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Yeah the weight is the main issue and always has been with gearbox bikes. The 18 Gear version which I have weighs in total (gearbox, cranks, sprockets, shifter, pully,) 3,2KG which is a lot. The 9 Gear version which is actually more gearde towards Enduro is about ±600g lighter. 
There are a couple of bikes that use the Pinion gear box with a gates belt drive. But I have only seen it on hardtail's never fully's.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

I am not going to lie to you this bike is a beast and the way it is constructed reflects that as well. So Cheetah have chosen to not use a standard headset but rather something different. I may be incorrect on this but basically these are industrial bearings. So yes the steerer is tapered. I didn't measure it before I put the fork in, but that was not 56mm. IT was more like 60mm. The outer diameter of the tube is 67mm.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

When I was comparing my Nicolai Pinion build to the standard Helius the Pinion gearbox bike is about a kilogram heavier.

The pulley allows for chain growth as the suspension moves through it's travel. There is always some chain lengthening unless the bottom pivot is concentric about the bottom bracket. I've hit mine a few times but because it is spring loaded it just moves up with the hit.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Subscribed. Waiting for info on the lighter 12 & 9spd versions.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Does the pinion have bearings fully supporting each side of the crank axle like a standard BB?

Was looking at the geo chart yesterday and couldn't get it to translate, what's the word for wheelbase in German?


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## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

Wheelbase = Radstand


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

The Konstruktion tab was hidden with the mobil held sideways, but I was able to find it now, thanks.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

For a hardtail the Pinon looks great but for suspension the Effigear looks nice since it has a nicely located concentric swingarm allowing belt drive.


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## tonymtber (Mar 4, 2012)

TPA8580 said:


> Unfortunately My new Bike has not come in yet but I can post her specs:
> 
> Enduro Mountain Spirit 27.5 2014
> Frame Size - S
> ...


Looks nice. What did it weigh in at complete? How do you find the suspension? Im not to worried about the weight but more the suspension....have been riding Santa Cruz VVP for quite a while now & really like it..it just bugs me wearing out & cleaning the drive line all the time. Really like the Pinion idea.

I'm keen order the Trail Mountain Spriit in 29er. How did you go with the ordering process with them? I'm having difficulty translating the web site & have sent them an email but no reply.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

tonymtber said:


> Looks nice. What did it weigh in at complete? How do you find the suspension? Im not to worried about the weight but more the suspension....have been riding Santa Cruz VVP for quite a while now & really like it..it just bugs me wearing out & cleaning the drive line all the time. Really like the Pinion idea.
> 
> I'm keen order the Trail Mountain Spriit in 29er. How did you go with the ordering process with them? I'm having difficulty translating the web site & have sent them an email but no reply.


OK so the suspension is fine, no it is not VPP good, it is active but not as active as I thought. Pedalbob is there but nothing terrible. These bikes are build to be sturdy and last along time. Having said that it does come with a weight penalty. Mine weighs in at around 16KG. Which when I compare it to my 9KG hardtail is a lot. But with the 650B wheels I really do not sense is that much. It is rather quick. The pinion is awesome, although I will admit it does take a little getting use to but nothing dramatic.

As I am Dutch, German was a mandatory subject at school, so the website is not a problem for me. But I can imagine that it would be for someone who is not familiar with the language. And Google translate is not perfect. I found the people at Cheetah to be really helpful. Ilona Herrlinger does write in German and in English if need be. Sometimes they can be a little sluggish in responding (It's a family business with only Iliona and her husband Micheal). But hit them up again on Facebook and they'll be sure to respond to you. If you need help with some of the translation stuff. Let me know I can help.


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## tonymtber (Mar 4, 2012)

Thanks for that. I'm hoping the Trail mountain spirit will come in around 12.5 with some carbon bits and custom wheels. I'd did see somewhere on their website they are around 11.5 with and "old-school" drive line.

Starting to figure out their website. Ideally i would like to order the frame, gearbox, driveline parts and hubs and build up the rest with the parts i want.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

tonymtber said:


> Thanks for that. I'm hoping the Trail mountain spirit will come in around 12.5 with some carbon bits and custom wheels. I'd did see somewhere on their website they are around 11.5 with and "old-school" drive line.
> 
> Starting to figure out their website. Ideally i would like to order the frame, gearbox, driveline parts and hubs and build up the rest with the parts i want.


Your welcome.

So it (Trail mountain spirit) will be closer to 12,5 with the old drive line. The Pinion gear line is about 3KG total. So to be honest a 12,5 with Pinion will be difficult. I think I will be able to get mine to about 14,5 KG with a different set of wheels and some carbon parts. I rode her today and I am still very happy with her. Just hope this damn cough goes away so I can really ride her.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

12.5kg for a Pinion bike would be brilliant, but difficult to achieve without compromising on parts or drilling lots of speed holes!


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## tgaban (Jul 19, 2012)

This is mine from Malaysia. The frame was built by Pilotcycles. It is about 500km now. Some problems with others like belts, shifter and maybe the hubs, but not the gearbox. Currently experiencing squeaking noise while pedaling at low gear uphill, hoping it is from the pedal.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

tgaban said:


> This is mine from Malaysia. The frame was built by Pilotcycles. It is about 500km now. Some problems with others like belts, shifter and maybe the hubs, but not the gearbox. Currently experiencing squeaking noise while pedaling at low gear uphill, hoping it is from the pedal.


Looks like a great bike is it Titanium? How is the belt drive? Do you have the 18sp or 12sp or 9sp?


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## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

There is a new Nicolai ION GPI with pinion gearbox and gates belt drive:

Exklusiv: Erste Bilder vom Nicolai ION GPI Enduro


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Yip saw that, when reading through the article though it does seems that this is not a aftermarket thing and the frame has to have a specific chain tensioner. Also it seems that due to the earliness of the design that this ION16 is actually more a ION155 as they have had to reduce the suspension travel. Nothing major but a deal breaker for me as my 170mm on my Cheetah is really nice. Knowing Nicolai they will probably have a really announcement at Eurobike. Even more reason for me to go.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Love my Cheetah, would love to get her out more but busy job you know how it goes. Made some upgrades:

- Ergon Grips
- Hope E3 Brakes
- Hope AM stem
- Haero Carbon Enduro bar
- Stans Tubesless kitt

Future upgrades:

- Different wheels
- Replace Saddle as I hate this saddle it hurts my ass, no matter how long I ride it. 
- Differen pedals, not that these are bad, but I like the idea of have flat on one side and clipless on the other.
- Dif. Tires don't know what yet
- Switch to pinion 12 speed


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

I've been rocking the P1.12 a bit on my roadie/commuter/shenanigans rig.
I like it enough that I'll put a Pinion on my next MTB build.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

zahgurim said:


> I've been rocking the P1.12 a bit on my roadie/commuter/shenanigans rig.
> I like it enough that I'll put a Pinion on my next MTB build.


Dude that is a sweet ride, congrats.


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## mtnbiker831 (Sep 19, 2011)

Over on the nicolai forum there is rumors of a trigger shifter coming soon for some of the gearboxes which would be awesome. I think it is one of the reasons that it has not been more widely adopted yet, that and it is a large change from what has been done for years by everyone. I would love to see a trigger shifter for the 9 and 12 speed boxes, and have it picked up by some larger companies to put pinion more on the map. Fat bikes seem like a no brainier to start at, due to weight not being as great of a concern and the fact no tensioner is needed, not to mention it is not effected by cold/frozen temps and snow. I would love for the next fs bike I buy in 3 years to have a pinion gearbox without a large weight penalty and have some decent frame selection from different companies.


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## Peregrinebikes (Dec 10, 2015)

Hi guys, I am debating about buying the P12 box and protoing up a frame with it. How bad is the drag compared to a normal set up? Also, how do you feel about the weight gain?


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## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

Peregrinebikes have a look at the Nicolai forum where there is some information about pinion gearbox. Under the following link you can find also some information on drag and weight of the pinion:

http://forums.mtbr.com/nicolai/nicolai-gpi-geometron-ride-info-pics-986181.html


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Peregrinebikes said:


> Hi guys, I am debating about buying the P12 box and protoing up a frame with it. How bad is the drag compared to a normal set up? Also, how do you feel about the weight gain?


I've got the original P1.18, not the 12. I find the drag on my Rohloff bike very pronounced. I can't tell any difference between the P1.18 Pinion gearbox and my other, standard derailleur equipped bikes. Lighter would be better but it's not until a few hours into a ride that the extra weight becomes noticeable. The 12 and 9 speed versions each weigh less than the 18 though.


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## Peregrinebikes (Dec 10, 2015)

Thanks for the replies. I have read the Nicolai thread and he just mentions that the drag is not noticable. They are running belts which i have heard people complain that that drag is noticable with belt drive. I would do a chain. I would just like to get as many peoples responses on drag who have spent time on them to make an informed decision. For some it is a deal breaker. I am looking at marketing these so input is helpful.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Anyone has more information on this bike? picture taken from pinion website:
https://pinion.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/12-03.jpg

I'm very intrigued by this build.. final weigh and who made that carbon frame.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

andrepsz said:


> Anyone has more information on this bike? picture taken from pinion website:
> https://pinion.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/12-03.jpg
> 
> I'm very intrigued by this build.. final weigh and who made that carbon frame.


Found it! Its a QUANTOR TRIEBWERK...not sure what version. The top end version 10.0 with Rock Shox RS1 fork is 10500g (23.15lbs). Not too bad of a weight for a gearbox frame but not light for a hardtail...but I LIKE IT!!! would put on my list of dreams for sure!

QUANTOR TRIEBWERK 8.0 - QUANTOR


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Can anyone share with me a blueprint (technical drawing) of the 'pinion receiver plate' with all the bolts placements the is attached to the frame? Or somewhere where I can find this information? Also...is it standard for all pinion boxes?


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## VitaliT (Jan 17, 2015)

I have one pinion Fap bike

frame - Nicolai Fat Argon Pinion color city camo dizy
fork - German:A Flame Wide / Salsa Makwa
seat post - KS lev 150мм
saddle - Ergon SME3 Pro Carbon 
headset - Hope 
stem - enve mtb 55mm
handlebar - enve RSR
grips - Ergon GA1 evo
system - Pinion p 1.12
sprockets - 2 x Carbongates CDX 39t 
belt - 122t CDX
bash guard - SRAM Truvativ
shifter -- pinion
pedals - Spank oozy
brakes - Formula T1 discs 180мм 
wheelset I9, sapim cx, Nextie 65mm 
tires - 45 NRTH Vanhelga/ maxxis Mammoth/ D4


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

andrepsz said:


> Can anyone share with me a blueprint (technical drawing) of the 'pinion receiver plate' with all the bolts placements the is attached to the frame? Or somewhere where I can find this information? Also...is it standard for all pinion boxes?


So I don't have a drawing for the bolts placements. I can however say that the bolt placement for all pinion gearboxes are the same.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

So guys the crazy lads over at Zerode did it again and have created the Enduro dream bike for me. Light weight and with a 12 speed Pinion Gear box. Hope it come in different colours though as I have kinda tired of the Neon yellow. Zerode Taniwha - Crankworx Rotorua 2016 - Pinkbike. My only beef with my current bike is that it weighs a ton. Mostly because of the beefy aluminium frame. Also the guys at Ventana seem to have found Pinion as well as they made this rather good looking bike, https://www.facebook.com/ventanausa/photos/pcb.973620582693179/973620172693220/?type=3


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

^Stealth appears to be the other colour option coming out. Also +1 for 8.5x2.5 shock spec. I need to figure out reach on a few other bikes first

Pinion being able to use Shimano or SRAM trigger would be awesome for myself. Only really like the ODI TLD grips at the moment


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

tonymtber said:


> Thanks for that. I'm hoping the Trail mountain spirit will come in around 12.5 with some carbon bits and custom wheels. I'd did see somewhere on their website they are around 11.5 with and "old-school" drive line.
> 
> Starting to figure out their website. Ideally i would like to order the frame, gearbox, driveline parts and hubs and build up the rest with the parts i want.


A 1x drive train is about 1Kg and change. Mine for example is Race Face Next SL + 30T + BB = 515 grams and cassette 480 + derailleur 230 = 1225. Call it 1000 to 1400 if people use more (SRAM XX1 cassette) or less expensive (Shimano XT) components.

So ... don't delude yourself: the pinion I am sure is great but light it is not. It comes with a 4-5 pounds penalty and to build a 25 pounds full suspension trail bike with it would be almost impossible. 30 (or 13.6 Kg) would be already quite light.


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## No Skid Marks (Mar 10, 2010)

I weighed a Pinion 12 speed and all asociated components and it was well under 1kg difference, closer to half a KG. Weight is a misconception as you're not taking into consideration the extra weight is low and centered acting as balast and not as unsprung weight like a mech. Then there's the leverage to be considered having a mech and cassette so far back on the bike. and to get the similer 600% range, you'd need the massive Sram 1x12 system and still only have 500% range compared to the P12. Even the 9 speed Pinion has 568% range.
The energy saved being able to shift any time and be in the ideal gear more often is also worth considering. 
and you need to compare weight with a chain guide if you ride a bit more rugged, as the Pinion won't spit the chain off.
Grip shofter is also okay, as it has chunky shifts and you can change several gears in one action if desired.
I have the 18 speed in a Nicolai 150mm. 18 is way too many gears, I always double shift, 12 speed should be right on the money.
Can't wait for the Zerode. My Nicolai with a new 12 speed Pinion is for sale if anyone is keen. I'm in Australia, but our dollar is week so it'd still be cheap for anyone to buy. I'm not selling to get the Zerode, but probably will, I just had a couple of operations and can't ride for a while and am now very in debt and need to pay for operations, so need to sell the bike. I'll keep my 18 speed pinion and put it in a hardtail until I get out of debt.


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## Peregrinebikes (Dec 10, 2015)

We just received a few P12 gearboxes we will be building frames for. They are not light. Haven't weighed them but probably 4-5lbs for the box without cranks. But as No Skid Marks has pointed out, it is a matter of pros and cons and what you personally want. Personally I think derailleurs suck and shifting sucks with them regardless of how good they have gotten in the last few years. Anytime shifting is something I have wanted for years. There are so many sections on trails where I cannot shift currently but would like too to set myself up better coming out. With the carbon craze everything has become light and expensive. For us, weight isn't everything. I know a guy who recently in a months time, cracked his carbon swing arm. It was warrantied. Then 2 weeks later, cracked the front triangle. Carbon can be great, but all we are doing it taking the material, making it light but not durable. And then charging a lot of money for it.


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## ZigaK (Sep 9, 2009)

C'mon you should weigh them. And cranks, shifter, tensioner. In grams please.


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## Peregrinebikes (Dec 10, 2015)

I plan to tonight. They are posted on Pinion's website. But i will weigh it myself.


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

Be curious if the claimed weights are what they are.
CNC'ed crank or forged?

I like the 5mm crank arm increases. Wonder when an aftermarket option from Race Face or someone similar comes out?


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## tonymtber (Mar 4, 2012)

On the Pinion website it says P18 is 2700 grams and the P12 is 2350 grams. It doesn't say if the Shifter and cranks are included


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## ZigaK (Sep 9, 2009)

Yes it does. The cranks, shifter, spider, chainring, tensioner, ... are all separate from the gearbox.
scroll to the bottom of this page: P1.12 Gearbox | PINION | DRIVE TECHNOLOGY |


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

It looks like the cables are a real pain to change. Otherwise, I think it's very cool!


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## uysalt (Mar 8, 2014)

Glad to hear your comments on P 12 vs P 18, No Skid Marks. I have a touring/trekking bike on order from Pilot where I have chosen P12. My previous bike had a Rohloff hub and even on 14 gears I was double shifting many times. I thought 12 gears would be good enough and rightly so you validate that. Thanks for that feedback.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

uysalt said:


> No Skid Marks.


Thanks for letting us know your underwear is clean!


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## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

I have found an article in German about Pinion gearbox efficiency:

Tretlagergetriebe Pinion P1.18 ? Wirkungsgrad-Messungen an Nabenschaltungen ? Teil 3 | Fahrradzukunft - Ausgabe 20

It seems that the efficiency of the Pinion gearbox+chain at 50 Watt output is below 90% which is in my opinion quite low value


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

TPA8580 said:


> So I don't have a drawing for the bolts placements. I can however say that the bolt placement for all pinion gearboxes are the same.


Thanks, any chance you can tell me the size of the bolts? looking at pictures on-line I can count about 23 external bolts total, are they all steel? Alloy?

I'm interested in knowing the exact size of all these external bolts:
head diameter:
Lenght: 
and wish ones are M5 or M6...any M8?

thanks....or to any other person that can help me with this information!


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

slavdo said:


> I have found an article in German about Pinion gearbox efficiency:
> 
> Tretlagergetriebe Pinion P1.18*? Wirkungsgrad-Messungen an Nabenschaltungen*? Teil*3 | Fahrradzukunft - Ausgabe 20
> 
> It seems that the efficiency of the Pinion gearbox+chain at 50 Watt output is below 90% which is in my opinion quite low value


It 'looks' like a very interesting article....because I can't read!!!!! Since you might know german apparently...what else relevant they say?


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

andrepsz said:


> It 'looks' like a very interesting article....because I can't read!!!!! Since you might know german apparently...what else relevant they say?


Use an online translator.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Use an online translator.


Hehe I know...lazy and don't have time, was hoping for someone else to read for me....ho well....hehe, I'll use the translator and fell good about myself.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

andrepsz said:


> Hehe I know...lazy and don't have time, was hoping for someone else to read for me....ho well....hehe, I'll use the translator and fell good about myself.


Oh, I see how it is! I'd have to bill you for my time.


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## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

andrepsz said:


> It 'looks' like a very interesting article....because I can't read!!!!! Since you might know german apparently...what else relevant they say?


U understand german a little bit. Basically the graph below is interesting in which efficiency (Wirkungsgrad) of various transmissions is shown. Thin lines in the graph represent efficiency at 50 Watt output and thick ones represent efficiency at 200 Watt output.


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## MattyCiii (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm interested in building a frame for a Pinion... Can a current Pinion owner tell me how wide the Pinion is between the mount points? I'm guessing it's in the 70 mm range...


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

MattyCiii said:


> I'm interested in building a frame for a Pinion... Can a current Pinion owner tell me how wide the Pinion is between the mount points? I'm guessing it's in the 70 mm range...


Have you tried emailing Pinion for specs. That'll be more accurate than someone trying to measure their frame.


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## EnduroRacer128 (Jan 17, 2007)

Howdy,

I haven't posted in quite awhile on here, but this thread intrigued me. I have a Musing petrol 5p (german company, got my hands on one that had been imported) with a P1.12 gearbox.

I purchased this bike to race and train on for this season (and hopefully next) instead of doing the usual "sell the old bike, get this years model through the shop" thing, because I really believe in the gearbox technology, and they seem to be at a point of tipping the scales away from derailers (Sheldon Brown spelling, fyi), at least for my needs. Plus, between a dh bike and a trail bike I destroy 2-3 drivetrains a season, not counting the occasional ripped off derailer. From an engineering and mathematical standpoint, everything is better about a gearbox.

However, I am already running into issues. I knew that the weak point of the bike would be that tensioner, and I have already cracked it (weird hit when the tire slid off a wood bridge, wasn't even on the bike). I have contacted Pinion but they don't seem to A) communicate well in English (I'm going to ask if they would prefer French, or get my research adviser, who is german, to type an email for me! ) and B) Have told me to go to a bike shop dealer, which I already explained is non-existent within several thousand miles of me.

So I have a few questions for y'all:

1) What have you done for spare parts? The box seems pretty reliable but I need to carry some spares if I am relying on this thing as a race bike, since no shops carry parts. I have seen BikeMan has some stuff, perhaps they can order other things they don't have in stock (going to call them on Monday.)

2) Looking at the tensioner, I have a few ideas to make it better. I may take the bracket off, JB weld the crack, then wrap it in fiberglass or carbon and vacuum cure it, then shape it back up. If it works, I would do it to a fresh one as well, to have it when the repaired one breaks

Also, I am thinking about just throwing a Yess or Paul tensioner on the rear. Any downsides to this, other than possibly a little more chain movement? edit: Also less chain wrap on the front ring. I could see that being an issue

3) What the hell tool do you use to get the chainring off? Pinion sells one, but it looks like I could use an adjustable spanner (Park Tool SPA-6, for example)? Anyone know?

Anyway, I am pretty psyched on this bike and am looking forward to hopefully giving the gearbox some free exposure by racing with it and riding it on trails and bike parks around the rocky mountain region. I really think if people saw it and rode it and saw what the bike is capable of, they'd be sold on the idea, at least.


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## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

Hi, as for the pinion spare parts try to have a look here (unfortunately in German only):
Pinion Ersatzteile | bike-prof.de


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

I've had to replace the tensioner once already. The original model had a number of holes drilled into the square shouldered bolt for the spring to fit into. Riding lots of trails with loose rocks I'd regularly have rocks hit the downtube and some have obviously hit the tensioner too. I couldn;t get the bolt on its own and had to buy a whole tensioner.

I run a Yess ETR-D on my singlespeed and it sometimes still attracts sticks like a derailleur. I think it's either rocks hitting the Pinion tensioner or sticks in the Yess tensioner but they should both work. Worst case you could really confuse people and run an old derailleur as a tensioner!

Pinion list spares on their accessories page... ACCESSORIES | PINION | DRIVE TECHNOLOGY |


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## EnduroRacer128 (Jan 17, 2007)

Any advice on getting the chainring off? I don't want to screw anything up but it looks like I can just use a BB spanner tool if I don't want to order Pinion's fancy one?



crank1979 said:


> I've had to replace the tensioner once already. The original model had a number of holes drilled into the square shouldered bolt for the spring to fit into. Riding lots of trails with loose rocks I'd regularly have rocks hit the downtube and some have obviously hit the tensioner too. I couldn;t get the bolt on its own and had to buy a whole tensioner.
> 
> I run a Yess ETR-D on my singlespeed and it sometimes still attracts sticks like a derailleur. I think it's either rocks hitting the Pinion tensioner or sticks in the Yess tensioner but they should both work. Worst case you could really confuse people and run an old derailleur as a tensioner!
> 
> Pinion list spares on their accessories page... ACCESSORIES | PINION | DRIVE TECHNOLOGY |


Cool I assumed there would be no issues running a rear tensioner, I just wanted to make sure. I've used them enough on hardtails to know they can catch... I ordered a Paul Melvin to try, then at least I have something when the tensioner inevitably finishes breaking haha.

[Edit: Melvin is going to be a pain with the Pinion, since the max rear cog is 20t... I guess I'll see what I can do]

Oh yeah I know how to set that up in a pinch... But I definitely prefer to save it for more dire circumstances!

Yep I've combed their whole site, I know what you *can* get, you just have to order it through am authorized dealer (or maybe not, Pinion could only tell me that they don't deal with "end customer"...)



slavdo said:


> Hi, as for the pinion spare parts try to have a look here (unfortunately in German only):
> Pinion Ersatzteile | bike-prof.de


Thanks, that might actually help quite a bit!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## hardboiled (Jun 10, 2006)

cool bike enduroracer, I saw it for sale on pinkbike and was curious about it myself. I'm pretty intrigued by the soon-to-be-released Zerode enduro bike with the pinion gearbox so definitely interested in your experience. I'm in the states too so the support issue is a real concern. the Zerode relies on the same tensioner hanging down low in the line of fire. besides damage, it's a bit concerning just from a chain-retention perspective, especially for a race bike. doesn't look like there would be an easy way to mount a traditional chainguide on these bikes.

other than that whole issue, how do you find the shifting when climbing? from what i've read it sounds like shifting under load is one of the weaker aspects of the gearbox's performance. have you put your bike on a scale? it seems like the pinion adds 3-4 pounds over a midrange drivetrain. what bike were you riding before this one? how would you compare them so far?


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

hardboiled said:


> cool bike enduroracer, I saw it for sale on pinkbike and was curious about it myself. I'm pretty intrigued by the soon-to-be-released Zerode enduro bike with the pinion gearbox so definitely interested in your experience. I'm in the states too so the support issue is a real concern. the Zerode relies on the same tensioner hanging down low in the line of fire. besides damage, it's a bit concerning just from a chain-retention perspective, especially for a race bike. doesn't look like there would be an easy way to mount a traditional chainguide on these bikes.
> 
> other than that whole issue, how do you find the shifting when climbing? from what i've read it sounds like shifting under load is one of the weaker aspects of the gearbox's performance. have you put your bike on a scale? it seems like the pinion adds 3-4 pounds over a midrange drivetrain. what bike were you riding before this one? how would you compare them so far?


I replaced a Pivot Firebird with the Nicolai Helius AC Pinion. They both pedal about the same. Shifting to an easier gear under load takes a little getting used to. Normally you'd slightly decrease pressure on the pedals when shifting to an easier gear using a derailleur, it's just more pronounced with the Pinion gearbox. Once used to it there isn't an issue. Being able to shift without pedalling is definitely a bigger advantage than the shifting under load is a disadvantage. I don't notice the weight until later in the ride when i'm getting tired. Better fitness would counter that though!


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## No Skid Marks (Mar 10, 2010)

PUNKY said:


> Be curious if the claimed weights are what they are.
> CNC'ed crank or forged?
> 
> I like the 5mm crank arm increases. Wonder when an aftermarket option from Race Face or someone similar comes out?


 Some brand is making carbon cranks for them.


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## No Skid Marks (Mar 10, 2010)

uysalt said:


> Glad to hear your comments on P 12 vs P 18, No Skid Marks. I have a touring/trekking bike on order from Pilot where I have chosen P12. My previous bike had a Rohloff hub and even on 14 gears I was double shifting many times. I thought 12 gears would be good enough and rightly so you validate that. Thanks for that feedback.


No worries. I'd say with the 12 you'll still have close enough incriments to get ideal cadence. More range than your Rohloff was.


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## No Skid Marks (Mar 10, 2010)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Thanks for letting us know your underwear is clean!


Been using that name for over a decade on several forums, you're the first to comment.


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## No Skid Marks (Mar 10, 2010)

slavdo said:


> I have found an article in German about Pinion gearbox efficiency:
> 
> Tretlagergetriebe Pinion P1.18*? Wirkungsgrad-Messungen an Nabenschaltungen*? Teil*3 | Fahrradzukunft - Ausgabe 20
> 
> It seems that the efficiency of the Pinion gearbox+chain at 50 Watt output is below 90% which is in my opinion quite low value


Guessing that's a brand new one. You have to remember you can get in the right gear easier and more often, so your energy loss at the end of a ride is less than what those numbers alone will tell you.


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## No Skid Marks (Mar 10, 2010)

The bolts that hold it together are aluminum. Use a torque wrench if you're ever fool enough to play with them, or you'll pop the head off.


andrepsz said:


> Thanks, any chance you can tell me the size of the bolts? looking at pictures on-line I can count about 23 external bolts total, are they all steel? Alloy?
> 
> I'm interested in knowing the exact size of all these external bolts:
> head diameter:
> ...


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## No Skid Marks (Mar 10, 2010)

hardboiled said:


> chain-retention perspective, especially for a race bike. doesn't look like there would be an easy way to mount a traditional chainguide on these bikes.
> 
> other than that whole issue, how do you find the shifting when climbing? from what i've read it sounds like shifting under load is one of the weaker aspects of the gearbox's performance. have you put your bike on a scale? it seems like the pinion adds 3-4 pounds over a midrange drivetrain. what bike were you riding before this one? how would you compare them so far?


 It's not really a chain retention device. It's just to take up chain slack and allow chain growth. The chain is running straight like a single speed, so no need for it to derail like with a mech pulling the chain to the side so it want's to feed off the chain ring.
You can shift under load, it just won't change until you back off pedaling, it's about the same as with a mech really, maybe a touch more, but you can shift multiple gears and more importantly you learn to shift any time you're not pedaling, like corners, rock strewn tracks, in the air etc.


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## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

No Skid Marks said:


> Guessing that's a brand new one. You have to remember you can get in the right gear easier and more often, so your energy loss at the end of a ride is less than what those numbers alone will tell you.


No it's not a brand new. Article says that the Pinion gearbox had intensively been ridden for about a year before the test of efficiency was carried out.


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

No Skid Marks said:


> Some brand is making carbon cranks for them.


I take it those will be coming to market soon then?

I'd love LOVE an X.0 or even a XTR style trigger shifter! (I'm partial to X.0 as it is on multiple bikes, but XTR/Saint has been on the DH bike)


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## No Skid Marks (Mar 10, 2010)

slavdo said:


> No it's not a brand new. Article says that the Pinion gearbox had intensively been ridden for about a year before the test of efficiency was carried out.


Oh, still a storm in a tea cup IMO. I just built up a bike with a mech (X9 10 speed)and it's a piece of junk compared to the Pinion. I'd take the Pinion over a mech on any ride and know I'd save energy during that ride. Tyre pressure makes as much difference, and I don't bother making sure I have higher pressure for efficiency. It's still interesting to see those numbers. I just think all the other bennefits of a gearbox make them more efficient and less effort in other ways.
How much energy does it take to move a mech through the gearts Vs a gearbox, how much energy is wated soft pedalling gear changes, or lunging forward to unweigh the gears to change, or thinking about when you can pedal through a change in rocks or corners. Or how much is lost putting up with the wrong gear because you cant get a change done. How much is lost with a slightly out of tune mech or prematurely worn or bent chain and so on. Most of those are really small things, but the big ones add up to more than 5-10% less efficiency in a lab IMO.


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## EnduroRacer128 (Jan 17, 2007)

hardboiled said:


> cool bike enduroracer, I saw it for sale on pinkbike and was curious about it myself. I'm pretty intrigued by the soon-to-be-released Zerode enduro bike with the pinion gearbox so definitely interested in your experience. I'm in the states too so the support issue is a real concern. the Zerode relies on the same tensioner hanging down low in the line of fire. besides damage, it's a bit concerning just from a chain-retention perspective, especially for a race bike. doesn't look like there would be an easy way to mount a traditional chainguide on these bikes.
> 
> other than that whole issue, how do you find the shifting when climbing? from what i've read it sounds like shifting under load is one of the weaker aspects of the gearbox's performance. have you put your bike on a scale? it seems like the pinion adds 3-4 pounds over a midrange drivetrain. what bike were you riding before this one? how would you compare them so far?


Wow, the conversation has definitely taken off! I will offer an in depth reply very soon, I just haven't had time to sit down and answer your questions in what I feel would be an adequate fashion!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

EnduroRacer128 said:


> Howdy,
> 
> I haven't posted in quite awhile on here, but this thread intrigued me. I have a Musing petrol 5p (german company, got my hands on one that had been imported) with a P1.12 gearbox.
> 
> ...


Hi EnduroRacer,

Congrats on the awesome bike.

1. So I haven't ridden the bike as much as I wanted to, to be honest job is getting in the way and well my country sucks as it is flat. As for a spare tensioner, there are a couple of online shops you can go to one of them being: Pinion Ersatzteile | bike-prof.de. I have to say that I am a bit disappointed with Pinion not offering these parts from there webpage as it would make things a lot easier. Also if they do chose to do all through resellers make sure they post these on the web.

2. Sure about the tensioner in the back though. I know Pinion experimented with this in the early stages. I wonder why they never looked at putting it at the top instead of the bottom. I have had a couple unlucky trip off course, but never damaged the tensioner (knocks on woods).

3. The tool you want is on the webpage I gave you earlier.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Hi guys, a lot of discussion going on which is why I created the thread in the first place. I'm already looking to buy a new bike also with a Pinion gearbox. I think the Zerode is going to be my next one as it will be a lot lighter than the one I have now. 

@hardboiled I have had the bike for a while now and I have to say that yes the shifting does take a little getting used. The major thing being shifting under power which can be done, but not under a lot. However having said that I have ruined my fair share of chains by shifting under too much so.... As for the weight, here is where my experience is not so relevant as I went from a hardtail to a full suspension AM/EN bike, so there is a obvious weight difference. But I must say that the taking her uphill even with the weight which has always been the thing I struggle with the most (read: to little exercise), I must say it's not that bad. @Hardboiled what kind of bike do you have today?

@Enduroracer curious how much does your bike weigh? Mine weighs in at a hefty 36 pounds


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Btw has anybody else had problem with the shifter moving while shifting. To be honest I think the clamping mechanism could use a rethink. Right now its a two bolt system which pushes on a piece of aluminium. The bolts are tiny and the heads get bust pretty quickly, just ordered new ones today.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

TPA8580 said:


> Btw has anybody else had problem with the shifter moving while shifting. To be honest I think the clamping mechanism could use a rethink. Right now its a two bolt system which pushes on a piece of aluminium. The bolts are tiny and the heads get bust pretty quickly, just ordered new ones today.


I'd love to wrap my head around that....I like designing stuff


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

TPA8580 said:


> Btw has anybody else had problem with the shifter moving while shifting. To be honest I think the clamping mechanism could use a rethink. Right now its a two bolt system which pushes on a piece of aluminium. The bolts are tiny and the heads get bust pretty quickly, just ordered new ones today.


No problems with the shifter moving.

Pinion did just email out a survey in their latest newsletter. Tell them what you think.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Do you have the link to that survey, I did sign up but never received it.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

TPA8580 said:


> Do you have the link to that survey, I did sign up but never received it.


No, sorry. I deleted it straight after I did the survey and can't find anything on their website.


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## Zaf (Mar 1, 2012)

Can someone settle a question a mate and I have been kicking around; are you able to shift into a harder gear with tension on the cranks? Or are all gear changes required to unload the crank before it will click into place?


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Zaf said:


> Can someone settle a question a mate and I have been kicking around; are you able to shift into a harder gear with tension on the cranks? Or are all gear changes required to unload the crank before it will click into place?


Yes, you can change into a harder gear under load. It's always been a smooth change to a harder gear for me.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Well that is a nice move coming from Rohloff...Pinion will need to catch up.

Rohloff gets hydraulic road & trail shifting with new Bpod psh'R - Bikerumor


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

I have no cares for hydraulic shifting. 

Waiting on the electric Pinion upgrade, though. A button up/down will be nicer than the twistshifter.
Hopefully it's Di2 compatible. Would be awesome to be able to swap parts/shifters around.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

zahgurim said:


> I have no cares for hydraulic shifting.
> 
> Waiting on the electric Pinion upgrade, though. A button up/down will be nicer than the twistshifter.


I have all care about hydro shifting...no batteries needed, reliable, bleed not even once a year...perfect for trail use with all moving parts sealed from the environment.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

No worries, Pinion have send me the link, just filled it out and send it over.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

TPA8580 said:


> No worries, Pinion have send me the link, just filled it out and send it over.


I don't quite get your comment? is that related to the hydro shifting?


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

andrepsz said:


> I don't quite get your comment? is that related to the hydro shifting?


Ha no sorry about that, I was answering @crank1979.

As for the hydro shifting and the Di2 talk. The hydro shifting system is not from Rohloff but from a third party who has adapted the Acros AGE shifter to work with the hub. Now the problem is going to be how to integrate that piece with the Pinion gearbox as I would hate to have a piece sticking out, because of the same threat that would pose as derailleur sticking out. You fall you break it. That is what I like about the Pinion Gearbox all is internal. But who know's what they are cooking up at the Pinion Gearbox factory.

As for Di2 or electro shifting, adding a battery to the system is just adding weight, not shedding it, so for me this is a no go. Also I am not sure how dumping gears would work on that button system. Would you just depress the button continuously. But again the weight increase is not wanted so for me Hydro would be the way to go, but only if all the parts fit nicely inside and I can keep my twister shifter.

No for me the system at the moment is perfect, hydro shifting would be nice, but weight is more of a concern to me. I'll soon be selling my Cheetah + Gearbox frame in the hopes of buying the Zerode this year. That baby just keeps looking better and better.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

TPA8580 said:


> No for me the system at the moment is perfect, hydro shifting would be nice, but weight is more of a concern to me. I'll soon be selling my Cheetah + Gearbox frame in the hopes of buying the Zerode this year. That baby just keeps looking better and better.


I was really excited about the Zerode as well.

Pinion gearbox = check
Carbon frame = check
Faux bar suspension = fail

I'm sure people will like it. Maybe I will, but I haven't found a single pivot bike yet that I've liked the ride of.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

crank1979 said:


> I was really excited about the Zerode as well.
> 
> Pinion gearbox = check
> Carbon frame = check
> ...


Well to be honest I was hoping for a different suspension design myself, would have, loved for it to have DW Link, but I doubt that it is possible.

I think the suspension design that would most suite it apart from a single pivot would be the suspension design that Yeti/Alchemy is using, since the pivot is sitting a bit higher.

Still I have gotten used to the single pivot design and know it's strength and weaknesses. Would the bike have been better with a different suspension design maybe, who knows as there are very few manufacturers who make Pinion Full Suspension MTB's with something other than a version of the single pivot.


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## barryinuk (Jun 18, 2016)

I've had my Pinion 1.12 on a made-to-measure Titanium frame MTB for just over two months now (MSG Bikes in Lancing, Sus*** did the build). I had the (650B) wheels built up using the Hope singlespeed rear hub, which works extremely well with the Gates carbon drive I specified. 

It's been a miserable wet late Spring and early Summer here in the UK, so I've been shipping a lot of water and mud without any problems. The weight differential of the Pinion box means the bike isn't superlight, but it handles extremely well, with the gearbox weight nicely centered.

A huge advantage on an MTB is the ability to change to/from any gear rapidly on encountering unexpected gradient changes - no more crashing cogs and chain drops, and no more bent rear mechs from hitting rocks and stumps. The only issue I've experienced is some loss of tension in the drive belt over time - I've twice retensioned, but don't know why; Gates belts aren't supposed to stretch and I can't see how the rear dropouts could be slipping forwards. But that has been the ONLY maintenance I've had to do. 

So far, so very good; hoping all continues as well.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Found this new bike from MiTech via the Pinion website it looks quite nice. Neuheiten 2016: Mi-Tech Fullys mit und ohne Pinion

Also asked Zerode what the weight is of the new bike. Rob answered that the Green/Yellow bike weighs in at 13KG. Which is a big difference compared to my bike, but I am not sure I want to get rid of my bike just yet. I think I'll replace the 18sp with the new 12sp and get a set of better wheels that are also lighter. That should shave of a nice bit of the overall weight as well.


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## mattnz (Jun 4, 2014)

No Skid Marks said:


> View attachment 1060226
> I weighed a Pinion 12 speed and all asociated components and it was well under 1kg difference, closer to half a KG. Weight is a misconception as you're not taking into consideration the extra weight is low and centered acting as balast and not as unsprung weight like a mech. Then there's the leverage to be considered having a mech and cassette so far back on the bike. and to get the similer 600% range, you'd need the massive Sram 1x12 system and still only have 500% range compared to the P12. Even the 9 speed Pinion has 568% range.
> The energy saved being able to shift any time and be in the ideal gear more often is also worth considering.
> and you need to compare weight with a chain guide if you ride a bit more rugged, as the Pinion won't spit the chain off.
> ...


I PM'd you. Have you still got this?


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

*Pinion new gearbox introduction at Eurobike?*

Hi all so what do you guys make of this? What do you want it to be


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Maybe trigger or electronic shifting, or a retrofittable gearbox for current bikes?


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Lighter....just lighter...all we need.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

crank1979 said:


> retrofittable gearbox for current bikes?


Haha, good with that one.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Haha, good with that one.


It could be a singlespeed gearbox.


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## madstace (Jul 23, 2008)

andrepsz said:


> Lighter....just lighter...all we need.


Lighter, and trigger shifter, that's all we need. Although, some better looking cranks wouldn't go astray.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

madstace said:


> Lighter, and trigger shifter, that's all we need. Although, some better looking cranks wouldn't go astray.


I agree, better looking crank = carbon = Lighter.

Also perhaps forged carbon gears? Would that be strong enough? That would shave lots or weight.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Haha, good with that one.


Damn iPad. I meant to say, "good LUCK with that one".


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

Just did up a new AM ti frame. P1.12

Beautiful and fun, just how I like them.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Nice ride. How does the belt drive feel?


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

OMG OMG!!! 19 hours left!


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

TPA8580 said:


> Nice ride. How does the belt drive feel?


Awesome! Clean and quiet. 
I've got over 5000km on the belt on my gearbox touring/shenanigans bike, through ice, snow, mud, and rain, and I haven't had to do anything with it.

I love not having to deal with derailleurs, cassettes, and lubing chains anymore.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

The new C line of gearboxes seems like a slightly disappointing update.


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## madstace (Jul 23, 2008)

crank1979 said:


> The new C line of gearboxes seems like a slightly disappointing update.


Agreed. 250g weight reduction and improved Qfactor is welcome, but it needed to lose double that weight at least, and where's my bloody trigger shifter?!?!


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

I guess no trigger shifter?


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## barryinuk (Jun 18, 2016)

*Steady improvement*



crank1979 said:


> The new C line of gearboxes seems like a slightly disappointing update.


Seems to me that the C-line represents good progress by evolution. I'm not sure we'll see a 1500 gram 1.12 in my lifetime, but it's vital that Pinion retain their reliability premium. Price will be a key consideration in market penetration, and they're saying the new line will be at a significantly lower price point.

Extending my review above, reliability has been the key benefit of my new bike. I have resolved the early issue of losing belt tension by tightening the adjustment screws on the frame a bit over spec and using thread lock. So post-ride maintenance consists of a wash and a spray of key moving bits with teflon lubricant - beats derailleurs and chains hands down!

One slight concern I had when buying was claims that the Pinion/Gates drive chain offered slightly less efficiency. If that's so, I can't tell - I'm getting up the hills faster than before vs co-riders. And there's the huge plus of being able to get into the right gear quickly when rapid gradient changes come. Listening to the cursing and crashing of cogs all around me vindicates my decision every time


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## madstace (Jul 23, 2008)

barryinuk said:


> Seems to me that the C-line represents good progress by evolution. I'm not sure we'll see a 1500 gram 1.12 in my lifetime, but it's vital that Pinion retain their reliability premium. Price will be a key consideration in market penetration, and they're saying the new line will be at a significantly lower price point.


I didn't see anything regarding a change to the price, so thought they would have just kept it the same. However, if they have dropped the price by a good amount, coupled with the meagre but still positive weight loss, then they've definitely gone forward. Regardless of the diehards though, there's enough people asking for a trigger shifter that this can only help with getting more people on gearbox bikes.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

That magnesium fairing could have been done using forged carbon...lots of weight off.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

So what you guys think of the Pinion news. I know a lot of people were hoping for triggers but that didn't happen as I personally expected. I had hoped that they would go for a forged composite casing but they have gone with a cast and forged shell which does seem a bit more compact and shaves some grams which is nice. I like the fact that the Q factor has narrowed, although to be fair I never found the it to be an issue. I am very curious to to hear what the prices are as they say that with the C-line a complete bike should be possible for 2000 Euro, but that would probably be with the 6 speed.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Titanium cogs and carbon forged case...hope someday


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Selling off my frame, or even the complete bike if the price is right. Full Suspension Bike - Buy and Sell Mountain Bikes and Accessories


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

In plot twist worthy of a movie I have decided not to sell the bike after all. Taking the gearbox and putting it on a tourerbike. Going to keep saving to buy the Zerode next year.


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

I'm kind of wondering if there'll be other announcements at Eurobike?
The way that the shiftbox attaches to the new mag case looks like you can attach an electric shiftbox quite easily...

The gripshift has been fine on the MTB.
But I'd love an electric shift option for my road/touring bike, as the gripshift doesn't play well with my drop bars.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

zahgurim said:


> I'm kind of wondering if there'll be other announcements at Eurobike?
> The way that the shiftbox attaches to the new mag case looks like you can attach an electric shiftbox quite easily...
> 
> The gripshift has been fine on the MTB.
> But I'd love an electric shift option for my road/touring bike, as the gripshift doesn't play well with my drop bars.


Not likely I think they have already introduced what they are going to show at the EuroBike Show. Which is the C line.

I think next year might be the year that they, might look at electric or Hydraulic shifting but that is just a guess on my side or perhaps wishful thinking.


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## TPA8580 (Apr 19, 2009)

Friday I received my new Poison Ozon Touring frame in which I will put my 18spd P1.18 Pinion gear box, that I have stripped from my Cheetah Enduro Ride. It will have a belt drive for ultra low maintenance as this will be my commuter bike as well and it will have to be able to with stand the elements since I'll be riding in pretty much all weather conditions. As soon as she is build up I will post a picture. 
As for my Cheetah she is currently in pieces and hopefully I will have the money to buy the Zerode frame next year with the new C-Line Pinion gearbox perhaps even with a belt drive by then.


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## 3.14ter (Sep 7, 2016)

*Trigger*

At the Eurobike Show 2016, tout-terrain had a working Pinion Trigger Shifter proto on display. Internals and levers similar to their cinq5 Shift:R for the Rohloff Speedhub. You could even test-ride it outside.

Pete...



TPA8580 said:


> Not likely I think they have already introduced what they are going to show at the EuroBike Show. Which is the C line.
> 
> I think next year might be the year that they, might look at electric or Hydraulic shifting but that is just a guess on my side or perhaps wishful thinking.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Has anyone used any oil other than the Pinion oil for an oil change?


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## b12roll (Oct 18, 2016)

Hey, what kind of frame is that? I tried looking online, but the one I saw was for a mountain bike. Can you send me manufacturer info?


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

I am very interested in this cinq 5 proto. I asKed them and they told me "no date for it".


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## madstace (Jul 23, 2008)

Cagapraos said:


> I am very interested in this cinq 5 proto. I asKed them and they told me "no date for it".


I don't get it. It'd be much better to have one shifter with two levers than a second shifter that will get in the way of a dropper switch, not to mention be way harder to get used to using. I'm happy to wait (hopefully not much longer) for Pinion's own trigger shifter.


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

My idea is to use sti levers as Gebla Rohbox stile


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## Triton Bikes (Jan 6, 2010)

TPA8580 said:


> So what you guys think of the Pinion news. I know a lot of people were hoping for triggers but that didn't happen as I personally expected. I had hoped that they would go for a forged composite casing but they have gone with a cast and forged shell which does seem a bit more compact and shaves some grams which is nice. I like the fact that the Q factor has narrowed, although to be fair I never found the it to be an issue. I am very curious to to hear what the prices are as they say that with the C-line a complete bike should be possible for 2000 Euro, but that would probably be with the 6 speed.


The great thing about C-line isn't only reduced weight and narrow Q-factor. The best news is that it's ~40% less expensive than P-line. Which means we are going to see a lot more brands jumping into Pinion transmission bikes in the coming seasons.
We have just received a few orders for Pinion Ti framesets and I'm super excited to run C-line for my own do it all MTB.
I spent a good amount of time at Pinion booth at Eurobike and loved the C. It's the same technology as they use for making professional DSLR bodies like Canon 5D or Nikon D900.
I can post photos once we receive the first C-lines. But looks like it's going to be in January


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## mtb4190 (Dec 31, 2014)

The Taniwha is here now to go ride. I will report back soon


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Questions:
The Pinion Gearbox is suppossed to be freewheling yet, isn´t it?, so it is possible to be mounted a fixed rear hub.
The question is because in order to save some grams, to save the hub freewheel; but is there any fixed hub, 135mm, mtb six disk holes and Shimano spline in the market? (i confess: a can´t find any!)


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## mtb4190 (Dec 31, 2014)

I cant see why you would want a fixed rear hub or even understand how it would work. Unlike a motorbike gearbox there is no neutral gear so it relies on a freewheel in order to coast


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## buell (Oct 15, 2015)

Cagapraos said:


> Questions:
> The Pinion Gearbox is suppossed to be freewheling yet, isn´t it?, so it is possible to be mounted a fixed rear hub.
> The question is because in order to save some grams, to save the hub freewheel; but is there any fixed hub, 135mm, mtb six disk holes and Shimano spline in the market? (i confess: a can´t find any!)


There are fixed disk spline hubs on the Pinion site. HxR also makes some. If you run rim brakes, Bonz makes one as well.


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## madstace (Jul 23, 2008)

mtb4190 said:


> The Taniwha is here now to go ride. I will report back soon


Is it just me or is that the older style frame with the shock mounting direct to the seatstays as opposed to the upper swingarm? I prefer the latter as it gives it a sleeker profile and would leave more room for the knees.


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

First of all, thanks for the answers.
No, i have disk brakes so... in other case would be a solution a front hub: Fixed gear wheel build (converted disc hub) - The Paceline Forum
Is the Pinion rear hub a fixed one? I don´t think so, it is a freewheel one, isn´t it?


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## mtb4190 (Dec 31, 2014)

madstace said:


> Is it just me or is that the older style frame with the shock mounting direct to the seatstays as opposed to the upper swingarm? I prefer the latter as it gives it a sleeker profile and would leave more room for the knees.


 Very perceptive of you. Yes that is an old photo with the original swingarm on the pre production bike. Will post updated photo when I have one


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## mtb4190 (Dec 31, 2014)

here she is


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Here is mine!
Waiting for the summer to road "El camino Primitivo de Santiago".
´Till them commuting and mtb as much as possible.


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## mtb4190 (Dec 31, 2014)

any issues with trail debri causing the chain to drop off the rear cog?


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

mtb4190 said:


> any issues with trail debri causing the chain to drop off the rear cog?


I have had stuff, mostly long grass, get caught in the rear cog but I've always managed to stop before the chain came off or did any other damage.


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## mtb4190 (Dec 31, 2014)

crank1979 said:


> I have had stuff, mostly long grass, get caught in the rear cog but I've always managed to stop before the chain came off or did any other damage.


 OK dropped chain twice, my be just unlucky. It has been an age since I last dropped a chain on a derailleur bike. 
Now next question. On a few occasions now I have heard and felt a clunk come from the gearbox as I am riding along not touching the shifters almost sounds like a phantom shift. Anyone else experience this?


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

mtb4190 said:


> OK dropped chain twice, my be just unlucky. It has been an age since I last dropped a chain on a derailleur bike.
> Now next question. On a few occasions now I have heard and felt a clunk come from the gearbox as I am riding along not touching the shifters almost sounds like a phantom shift. Anyone else experience this?


Is it just the gears picking up again when you start pedalling after you've been rolling along, not pedalling? I get that.


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## mtb4190 (Dec 31, 2014)

No I dont think thats it as it happens after i have been pedaling a bit. I dont recognize the symptom you mention here but thanks for the reply


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## mtb4190 (Dec 31, 2014)

Just added a bashguard to protect the chainring. works great


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## fellsbiker (Jun 17, 2006)

I'm hoping my next bike has a pinion gearbox. I've been DONE with derailers for years. I tried switching to an Alfine 11 and we all know how that worked out. Now I'm just running 1-by and hopefully in a couple years, I can afford a whole new bike. I'm also hoping some larger names in American mountain biking start making some pinion compatible frames. The new C.12 box looks great!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Following.

Ditched the derailure/gears/chain for a belt and Alfine8 over a year ago. Happy enough with it, but I'd love to go Pinion. Thinking about trying to find a frame builder to retro-fit a Pinion into a traditional frame.


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## fellsbiker (Jun 17, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Following.
> 
> Ditched the derailure/gears/chain for a belt and Alfine8 over a year ago. Happy enough with it, but I'd love to go Pinion. Thinking about trying to find a frame builder to retro-fit a Pinion into a traditional frame.


If you're looking for a simple hardtail frame, i'd just import one from Europe. But when it comes to rear suspension, that makes things significantly more complicated. Among other things, I want a long warranty, and I want to be able to bring it to a local shop if I start having trouble with the shock or if the frame develops cracks over time.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

fellsbiker said:


> If you're looking for a simple hardtail frame, i'd just import one from Europe. But when it comes to rear suspension, that makes things significantly more complicated. Among other things, I want a long warranty, and I want to be able to bring it to a local shop if I start having trouble with the shock or if the frame develops cracks over time.


In fact it is really hard to see FS frames out there...I see the challenge when it comes to belt drive, but with chain I don't really see why is such a problem...adding the inverted derailleur cage spring type to the BB it does the job hold the slack, I am constantly searching for a pinion frame that is light enough for XC ride, so we are talking carbon here, it shouldn't be such a hard task.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

"Now next question. On a few occasions now I have heard and felt a clunk come from the gearbox as I am riding along not touching the shifters almost sounds like a phantom shift. Anyone else experience this?"
Yes!, me too.
It sounds a lot and i am not able to link it wit anythig i do in particular.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*Ti 11,5 kg Pinion C1.12 SVB*

My new Pinion C1.12 Super Versatile Bike.

















Some details:
1.	Weight without pedals - 11,5 kg;
2.	Wheels - Unique ? no external spoke holes. Hookless 37 mm wide rims 29" (ISO 622*mm) wheelset - Kuzmin Ski Technology AB;
3.	Front wheel/tyre - 27.5"/ 75-584 (27.5 x 3.00, 650B+);
4.	Rear wheel/tyre - 29"/ 60-622 (29 x 2.35);
5.	Ti frame, fork, stem and seatpost;
6.	The frame and the fork have all needed M5 fastenings for full-size mudguards, carrier and lowrider;

More pictures at https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuECN02Vf11KgZhp6VcRro6rFCpKhA


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

leonidnk said:


> My new Pinion C1.12 Super Versatile Bike.
> 
> View attachment 1123890
> 
> ...


Wow!!!! Lust

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Which handlebar is it, Soma Gator?.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Leonidnk, take a look at xshifter.com 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

Cagapraos said:


> Which handlebar is it, Soma Gator?.


Yes, it is Soma Gator.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

andrepsz said:


> Leonidnk, take a look at xshifter.com


Thanks for the advice. Yes, the XShifter is a promising solution. However, my SVB made for wide multipurpose use, and for touring better to keep simplicity.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*Road bike configuration*



leonidnk said:


> My new Pinion C1.12 Super Versatile Bike.
> Some details:
> 1. Weight without pedals - 11,5 kg;
> 2. Wheels - Unique ? no external spoke holes. Hookless 37 mm wide rims 29" (ISO 622*mm) wheelset - Kuzmin Ski Technology AB;
> ...


Road bike configuration:

Weight without pedals - 10,3 kg;
Wheels - CX (ISO 622 mm) wheelset (QR 9 and 10 mm) - 24 mm wide rims;
Tyres - 25 mm wide;

Pictures: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuECN02Vf11KgZhp6VcRro6rFCpKhA
https://yadi.sk/d/jn8ujWLH3EQSyp


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

leonidnk said:


> Road bike configuration:
> 
> Weight without pedals - 10,3 kg;
> Wheels - CX (ISO 622 mm) wheelset (QR 9 and 10 mm) - 24 mm wide rims;
> ...


I'm drooling over your setup. You know... I have a very similar goal in mind; one hybrid bike (but mine would be a FS MTB frame) with two sets of wheels, but I also consider two sets of bars. To allow an easy bar swap I considered the Formula Quick disconnect SpeedLock to allow Hydro levers... and Xshifter to eliminate two cables in the equation....that would be cool.

But........I'm not in the position to afford Pinion...very sad :-(


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

andrepsz said:


> ...but I also consider two sets of bars(


Drop bars give a greater scope for different hand positions. And no problems on any off-road trails or races.
My last year off-road bike: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuECN02Vf11K-SvpEaloFxstRYGJ


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

You have a great taste! yeah I can see the good hand position on those levers for Off-roading. It looks like your newer bar is much longer on the drop section, how would you compare with you older one?


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

andrepsz said:


> It looks like your newer bar is much longer on the drop section, how would you compare with you older one?


Thank you.
Older one is a bit too short. I should add about 70 mm at each end. The new one is too long.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Does anyone ever weighted the Pinion P1.9 XR? including shifter and cables? or any other Pinion model...that would be interesting to know also. Having a hard time trusting the claimed weights on the website. 

Google search will appreciate a scale shot of that. Can't find nothing online.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

I was playing around with Sheldon Brown's Gear Calculator. Very interesting to see the real potencial of a Pinion equipped bike. This is no news for you guys I'm sure....just sharing what the Pinion would offer for me when I compare the Pinion range with my two current bikes, my MTB and my TT bike.

leonidnk above is doing the smartest move by having two bikes in one...he is indeed using the Pinion at it's full potencial.

My lowest gear on my MTB gives me 9.8km/h, Highest gear on my TT...on a huge 53T ring is 50km/h....both at 90RPM.









On the Pinion P1.12 (leonidnk's)....beat's my two bikes both ways! 
Even the P1.9XR would...with 50.1km/h higher gear.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

andrepsz said:


> or any other Pinion model...


Pinion C1.12


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

leonidnk said:


> Pinion C1.12
> 
> View attachment 1126781


Nice thanks! without Housing and gripshifter...ok.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

CNC cranks 449 g
Forget cranks 456 g


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

leonidnk said:


> CNC cranks 449 g
> Forget cranks 456 g


Basicaly no difference. Wondering who is going to dedicate some time to make and sell a carbon version.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*Trouble with Soma Gator handlebar.*

I got some troubles with Soma Gator handlebar. See attachment.
And generally, the handlebar is too much as track handlebar. Too much.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*Soma Fabrications misleads*

Unfortunately the Soma Fabrications misleads customers. At Gator Handlebar | SOMA Fabrications "Drops are 190mm long and have an OD of 22.2". The drops is 190 mm, but*OD of 22.2 is only about 157 mm. See attachment.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*Ti 11,5 kg Pinion C1.12 SVB*



leonidnk said:


> My new Pinion C1.12 Super Versatile Bike.
> 
> Some details:
> 1. Weight without pedals - 11,5 kg;
> ...


Even more pictures:https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuECN02Vf11KgZhp6VcRro6rFCpKhA


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*Off-Road Drop Grip Shift handlebar*

Off-Road Drop Grip Shift handlebar
After long time test of our Kuzmin™ SVB (Super Versatile Bike) with Soma Gator (Gator Handlebar | SOMA Fabrications), we been reluctant to develop our own handlebar. Handlebar which accept any 22.2 mm Grip Shifts and 23.8 mm brake levers. Gript Shift can be situated very close to brake lever. Handlebar with ergonomic off-road design (short reach, shallow drop, drops flare out). The handlebar are made of titanium alloy.

More images at https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuECN02Vf11KgZhp6VcRro6rFCpKhA


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*Beskidy MTB Trophy*

Well I never!

https://www.facebook.com/mtbtrophyc....1073741833.114997805268868/1073696412732331/


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## fellsbiker (Jun 17, 2006)

-_-


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Anyway... When someone is going to make a trigger shifter or sti road lever compatible sistem? 
And if it is affordable...


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

Cagapraos said:


> Anyway... When someone is going to make a trigger shifter or sti road lever compatible sistem?
> And if it is affordable...


Please, believe me, the existing grip-shift works very well and has his own advantages.


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Maybe... but with rain, fog or sweat it is slipery and useless at all.
And it does not designed for dropbars, this is a nonsense for the price.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*Grip-shift has many advantages*



Cagapraos said:


> Maybe... but with rain, fog or sweat it is slipery and useless at all.
> And it does not designed for dropbars, this is a nonsense for the price.


Yes, without gloves the wet grip-shift can be slippery. Just wear short finger gloves and no problems.
Do not forget, grip-shift has many advantages.:thumbsup:

Please, see our new drop handlebar, which is perfect works with the Pinion grip-shift. And the handlebar works very well with any other grip-shifts:



__ https://www.facebook.com/KuzminSkiTech/posts/1354680604599677


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

"Yes, you can change into a harder gear under load. It's always been a smooth change to a harder gear for me."
Not with my unit.
Changes with torque are imposible.
If you push only a little down changes are often possible but up ones only without tension or even.


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## mtb4190 (Dec 31, 2014)

now that i have over 100 hrs up at an average speed of only 8- 10kph so its mostly been a slog with multiple gear changes, the gearbox has loosened up really nicely so shifting under load is becoming increasingly easier. 4th and 8th gears are still tough however and I need to ensure I back off a lot if making those changes


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*Accentuated pull*



mtb4190 said:


> 4th and 8th gears are still tough however and I need to ensure I back off a lot if making those changes


It is hard to explain. After about two weeks (7-8 rides) I caught gear change technique. And now, even 4th and 8th are not a problem.

From beginning I did the change under a bit stronger pedal push. Now I do it under accentuated pull, it much better. Anyway, it is hard to explain, anyone has to try himself.


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## 3.14ter (Sep 7, 2016)

This seems to be good news for all you Roadies out there:

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/03/1...ar-shifters-pinion-colab-carbon-forks-appear/

Drop bar Triggers/Brifters for the C-line.


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## fellsbiker (Jun 17, 2006)

I'm no roadie but trigger shifters for a Pinion are great news! Now we just need some mainstream American MTB manufacturers to start making some compatible models.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

*Pinion Chain Tensioner Squeaky wear issue*



wblh said:


> Rembrandt said:
> 
> 
> > Question, had my Taniwha several months, well run in , brilliant ride and the gearbox is great. I am having trouble fixing an irritating creak from the tensioner spring, any suggestions ? Thanks
> ...


*The short - I've made a retrofitable fix for the pinion tensioner issue. I've posted about this in a couple of other forums and thought the MTBR community may be interested. Email me if you want one: [email protected]
*

The long, from Ridemonkey forum thread The Zerode thread | Page 22 | Ridemonkey Forums

_Hey all, I wasn't overly happy with the tensioner arrangement - wore through about a 1/4 of the pin within 4months of owning the bike.

I designed and machined an igus bushing tensioner which doesn't require lubrication. I haven't annodized it yet so will wear a little faster on the shaft but so far so good. After I have tested it for a while I'd be happy to get a few made up for other Taniwha owners. It's a one part swap out + igus bushing.

I've spoken to Rob @ Zerode and Pinion. Pinion are bringing it up at their next monthly meeting. Will be interesting to see how quickly they resolve the issue as I see it as a major design flaw on an otherwise great product._

Second post:
_
I have got quotes in for parts and you're looking at ~$50AUD for the Hard Annodised Tensioner/ Igus J bushings + shipping (~should be pretty cheap worldwide as they are a small parts) Please send me a PM if you need more details and are interested.

Cheers,
Jeremy_

*The retrofit will consist of the following:

New pivot made from 6061-T6 Hard Anodised Aluminium - hard anodising increases the life significantly over regular anodising
Igus J polymer flange bushings X2 - one to fit up straight away and a spare if the first ever wears out - they are pretty cheap so and easy maintenance item.

The fix is intended to be permanent. The main wearable part is the polymer bush, however this should last for a long time. The bushes can be replaced and are low cost. I will also include 2 bushes in the retrofit.*


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## B. Rock (Mar 9, 2011)

So I had a chance to demo a Zerode this past weekend, shortly after having done a ride on my 'traditional' trail bike, a 150mm front/rear 29er at a pinch under 30 lbs including pedals. I hadn't seen many reviews on how these bikes actually ride, so here goes:

-The weight is immediately noticeable upon picking up the bike. My bike isn't a feather weight, but I was expecting a carbon framed bike (mine is aluminum) with carbon 650B wheels to be around the same weight, given that the gearbox is heaver but frame would be lighter, and smaller wheels.. This one was another 2-3 lbs heavier than mine, at least, with no obvious weight reduction methods left on the table.
-In the middle to higher gears, the noise is surprisingly pronounced.
-It definitely takes some adjustment to get to shift. They said you could still do 'light pressure' on the pedals and shift, and maybe the gearbox was still breaking in, but I definitely did not find that to be the case. It had to be next to no pressure to be able to shift. Easily done on flats, difficult to do on steep climbs.
-However when it did shift, it's precise and immediate. Also shifting while not pedaling was awesome - I could see that being very beneficial once it's in your bag of tricks. It's not something I even think about on the trail at the moment.
-The placement of the box makes cornering great, even with the bb height of the zerode. It also felt very stable in the air.
-I purposefully took some 'big boy' lines down some rock features to see if I would catch the tensioner. Nope, cleared all of them with no issue. 
-They said the suspension articulated a little easier with the less unsprung weight...I didn't notice. Maybe on a flat rolling trail, but the demo trail (as most around here) was straight up, and straight down. 
-For a single pivot design, the suspension worked wonderfully. Granted I run a single pivot already, but I didn't feel the need to lock it out on the rocky climb. Flat, maybe. The bike was also blinged out with a CCDBA that we well tuned for the frame so I'm sure that was part of the equation. 

Am I selling my bike to go out and buy one? Not yet. But will my next trail bike have a gearbox? Yes. I do also think you could do a concentric suspension design and get rid of the tensioner. Yes you'd lose a little weight, but you'd also lose the biggest weakness in this system.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

I rode one of these a few weeks ago and came away with a similar feeling. I'd ride one for sure, but I'd need to sort some other issues first. Primarily, FS without a tensioner. 

You mentioned a concentric design to achieve this, but I'm not sure I understand how you'd go about that, since it's impossible to place the pivot concentric with the BB on a Pinion. What'd you have in mind?


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## B. Rock (Mar 9, 2011)

Well...to be honest, reaching out to the only guy I know that makes a single speed full squish was my first thought. You know the guy. I had recently reached out to Nick about a shock question and asked if Devin had poked around a pinion yet. Seems like something that might pique his interest. 

Logistically however, you make a good point. The pivot on the lunch money is right where the gearbox would be. Not sure how to get around that.


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## mtb4190 (Dec 31, 2014)

Well just to be the cat among the pidgeons I too have been riding one of these Zerode things and whilst it took a little bit to get used to I can say that once you do its very hard to go back to anything else(pevious bikes nomad 2 and Bronson) my performance on this bike has picked up noticeably both technical ups and certainly anything that points down. So much so that my weight weenie mate went out and purchased a Taniwha which I took as a huge compliment as he was previously most happy with his Bronson. What I did notice when comparing his new Zerode with my well worn in 8 month old model was just how much freer and quieter my gearbox is. Huge difference so it shows me that there really is a quite substantial running in period. I have had zero issues with the tensioner hitting anything and I would challenge anyone to ride more feral terrain than our native NZ bush although there is some wear as outlined by Jeremy a few posts back. There is a quickfix that works well by just tying a ziptie around the guide that the spring sits in although I do favour Jeremys option and will be purchasing one of his guides. Will let you know how it works out.


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

I just started a Taniwha specfic thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/27-5/zerode-taniwha-pinion-review-1055610.html


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

*Yes, I do finally have a Pinion gearbox!*

I am building a bike I have been dreaming about, while pedaling thousands of commuting miles. I had to change bikes every time the weather here in Cincinnati got nasty enough to break out the Moonlander, from my Nu Vinci 380 hubbed mule, a Charge Mixer. So now I have a Ti Carver O'Beast with Pinion C18, and Gates carbon drive on the build stand.













More pics will follow when I have her finished!


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

mrfixie said:


> I am building a bike I have been dreaming about, while pedaling thousands of commuting miles. I had to change bikes every time the weather here in Cincinnati got nasty enough to break out the Moonlander, from my Nu Vinci 380 hubbed mule, a Charge Mixer. So now I have a Ti Carver O'Beast with Pinion C18, and Gates carbon drive on the build stand.
> View attachment 1159853
> View attachment 1159851
> 
> More pics will follow when I have her finished!


Thanks for sharing! I can't make my dreams to become true at this point in time...but at least I get to feel the vibe from others in this thread.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Here is an idea. If had the money right now I would go for it. For someone with decent resources, knowledge and carbon fiber skills to retrofit a pinion to a normal frame, here is a option:
Scott Addict frame, merchandise


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

*First commute on the O'Beast, here she is fully dressed!*









I'll try the 'thin wheels' tomorrow. Pinion gearbox is a dream!!


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

*Here is the O'Beast with the skinny wheels.*


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Would you please make a detailed photo of the cockpit?


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

Cagapraos said:


> Would you please make a detailed photo of the cockpit?


Here are a couple, showing the camera (I use front and back on all commutes), the headlight and the Garmin:














I fabricated the accessory support from a carbon handlebar, laying it up with carbon weave and epoxy, supported by aero bar clamps.


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Wow!!!
You are really keen on electronics.
No do i... i do not have even a sad kilometer.
Do you ever consider a jones loop bar?
I just put one in my bicycle and it is really comfortable and plenty of room.
The fork looks great, it is a pity its price.
Great machine, congratulations.


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Here is my commuter-all porpouse machine.
25+25 liters hand made recycled bags. 10€. costs.


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

Cagapraos said:


> View attachment 1166493
> View attachment 1166494
> View attachment 1166495
> View attachment 1166496
> ...


Those 'hard bags' are ingenious! Yes, I have the Jones Loop bars on my Surly Moonlander, I love them! But the Titanium version is just so expensive, and the mustache bars I have are the same position. Thanks for the nice compliment!


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## adam1367 (May 19, 2016)

Hey, guys

Has anyone ridden Pinion at least for a year and over 10K km?
I'm struggling to find any long-term review of the gearbox.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

Hi,

In January will be one year. Definitely over 5000 km. So far no problems.



__ https://www.facebook.com/KuzminSkiTech/posts/1411707472230323


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## adam1367 (May 19, 2016)

Would you be so kind to elaborate?

-how does it work in cold? -10..-20 (Celcius)

-does it have 'break in' period? does it work better now compared to when you just recieved it. Any noises or lack thereof before/now? Does it get/feel less 'draggy' with time?

-have you serviced yours? how many times, what intervals?


Also, would be nice to hear more about conditions it was used under. I see you've got drop-bar bike, so I assume you do more racy speedy runs, rather that slow exploration kind of riding?


Thanks


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

adam1367 said:


> Would you be so kind to elaborate?



"-how does it work in cold? -10..-20 (Celcius)" - I did ride under -12°C as lowest. No problems;
"-does it have 'break in' period?" - Hard to say something, because I have had 'break in' period. It takes some time to be familiar with Pinion C1.12 gear change;
"does it work better now compared to when you just recieved it" - The same as above. Myself work better;
"Any noises or lack thereof before/now?" - More quiet now;
"Does it get/feel less 'draggy' with time?" - Hard to say. Do not feel any difference;
"-have you serviced yours? how many times, what intervals?" - So far never;

Mostly off-road conditions. Even quite long rides at end of September under extremely muddy conditions.
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuECN02Vf11KgZhp6VcRro6rFCpKhA


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## adam1367 (May 19, 2016)

Thanks a lot

How would you describe your experience in comparison with classic (derailleur) transmission? What are pros and cons?

So far I haven't heard anything bad about Pinion except weight and drag. Kind of sounds too good to be true.

I did a short test drive, that basically confirmed common thoughts. Felt lots of drag and noise, but it was fantastically quiet and smooth in mud compared to xx1 derailleur.

To all: anyone experienced any problems with pinion?


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

I bought my gearbox in june/july 2016, second hand unit nearly two years old.
It was a test gearbox mounted in and enduro bike, so the use before me was probably a hardest one.
I ride my bike for commuter and every day rides about an hour to three hours.
Normally muddy conditions and "no clean habbits" with the machine.
No idea about kilometers; one oil change a bit problematic but i assume because of the "mechanic".
No sounds except the Carbon Gates and only in some conditions.
Waiting to probe a Rohlof some day... i preffer Pinion to my old Shimano 9v.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*Mostly positive*



adam1367 said:


> Thanks a lot


How would you describe your experience in comparison with classic (derailleur) transmission? What are pros and cons? - Too much to write. Mostly positive. It is a very convenient to have possibility to shift gears at very sharp turn before steep uphill. However, it takes some time to learn effective gear shift.

So far I haven't heard anything bad about Pinion except weight and drag. Kind of sounds too good to be true. - Amen!

I did a short test drive, that basically confirmed common thoughts. Felt lots of drag and noise, but it was fantastically quiet and smooth in mud compared to xx1 derailleur.

To all: anyone experienced any problems with pinion? - Heightened wear and drag at Pinion chain tensioner under extremely muddy conditions. A lot of mud coming from front wheel directly into the tensioner. I am going to try two solutions: 1. half-link chain without any tensioners; 2. Rear tensioner with a single jockey wheel;


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

On the subject of weight and drag, weight is obvious and easily measureable - but less important to me for my commutingthan reliability, range, damage prevention and weatherproofing. Drag I would characterize as substantially less than the NuVinci hub on my old commuter. This has been proven for me over 700 miles on the Pinion, versus over 20,000 miles on the NuVinci. I would suspect that based on this data, the Pinion is no more drag than a derailleur system - and quite possibly less. On the workstand, turning just the mass of the wheel, the pinion system does not feel ‘draggy’. I may compare it to a derailleur system sometime to try to quantify this, but for now I will state that I don’t think there is enough difference that you would feel it.


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Nuvinci!
First user of a Nuvinci i known.
Could you please resume impresions?
What about range and maintenance?


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

Cagapraos said:


> Nuvinci!
> First user of a Nuvinci i known.
> Could you please resume impresions?
> What about range and maintenance?


Well maintenance was zero, since it is not (supposedly) user maintainable... So I rode it roughly 12,000 miles without any maintenance. Range was 380%, and having infinite adjustment within that range was very nice - I could actually stand on the pedals in a sprint, and adjust the gearing as my speed increased. Similarly on hills I could dial the gearing down as my momentum decreased. The overall range was very good, but much less than my Pinion 18 of course, and as stated before the NuVinci has high inefficiency!


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks.
It is common its use in electric cargo e-bikes and i do not really why.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

This post used to be a for sale post. Now it's just a picture of my bike in it's native NZ habitat...


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

leonidnk said:


> How would you describe your experience in comparison with classic (derailleur) transmission? What are pros and cons? - Too much to write. Mostly positive. It is a very convenient to have possibility to shift gears at very sharp turn before steep uphill. However, it takes some time to learn effective gear shift.
> 
> So far I haven't heard anything bad about Pinion except weight and drag. Kind of sounds too good to be true. - Amen!
> 
> ...


*
The short re: tensioner issue - I've made a retrofitable fix for the pinion tensioner issue. Email me if you want one: [email protected]*

The long, from Ridemonkey forum thread The Zerode thread | Page 22 | Ridemonkey Forums

Hey all, I wasn't overly happy with the tensioner arrangement - wore through about a 1/4 of the pin within 4months of owning the bike.

I designed and machined an igus bushing tensioner which doesn't require lubrication. I haven't annodized it yet so will wear a little faster on the shaft but so far so good. After I have tested it for a while I'd be happy to get a few made up for other Taniwha owners. It's a one part swap out + igus bushing.

I've spoken to Rob @ Zerode and Pinion. Pinion are bringing it up at their next monthly meeting. Will be interesting to see how quickly they resolve the issue as I see it as a major design flaw on an otherwise great product.

Second post:

I have got quotes in for parts and you're looking at ~$50AUD for the Hard Annodised Tensioner/ Igus J bushings + shipping (~should be pretty cheap worldwide as they are a small parts) Please send me a PM if you need more details and are interested.

Cheers,
Jeremy

The retrofit will consist of the following:

New pivot made from 6061-T6 Hard Anodised Aluminium - hard anodising increases the life significantly over regular anodising
Igus J polymer flange bushings X2 - one to fit up straight away and a spare if the first ever wears out - they are pretty cheap so and easy maintenance item if you are in an area that has super abrasive dirt.

The fix is intended to be permanent. The main wearable part is the polymer bush, however this should last for a long time. The bushes can be replaced and are low cost. I will also include 2 bushes in the retrofit.


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

*Deviate Guide*

I'm thinking about pre-ordering the Deviate Guide. The high pivot w/ idler suspension should make it different from anything I've had before. I'm a little unsure because of the pinion gear backlash--seems like the front ratchet is so coarse that a high engagement rear hub doesn't make a difference. I'm not overly sensitive to high vs low engagement rear hubs, however, I don't think you can fix the front ratchet if it becomes an issue.









Mike Levy @ Pinkbike is testing the Zerode Taniwha. It'll be good to get some additional feedback there.

Sea Otter is coming as well so I sort of want to hold out to see what appears.


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

The gearbox's engagement/ratchet doesn't look very good. Ride reports claim you don't feel it riding normally and it only happens when you backpedal.

Can anyone with a Pinion gearbox here comment on this?


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

MarkMass said:


> The gearbox's engagement/ratchet doesn't look very good. Ride reports claim you don't feel it riding normally and it only happens when you backpedal.
> 
> Can anyone with a Pinion gearbox here comment on this?


I have a Zerode Taniwha and Ti Pinion hardtail. The backlash in the box is quite large but it's not noticeable in regular riding conditions. I have had low and high point of engagement hubs and definitely prefer the high POE hubs with the box. I think the only practical place that it's noticeable is when you are track standing.

It's never been an issue for me and I think the positives far outweigh the negatives.


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## MacLeod01 (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi,
I have question about the pinion box oil.
Does the oil in the gearbox lose its properties during time ?
I am asking, because I saw this product on the web: https://pinion-bikes.de/PINION-Ganzjahres-Getriebeoel-1000ml-Vorratsbehaelter-P8901

As I know, one oil change is performed once per year or on 10 000 km and it is 60 ml oil, so for me the bottle from the link will be for more than 15 years usage.
Do you know if the oil in it will become unusable for such a long period of time ?


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

I appreciate your response.

I've never had a significant issue with low engagement hubs (e.g., 18t DT), but the gearbox's ratchet is new to me. As long as I don't backpedal I can see how the gearbox ratchet would stay engaged and the only slack in the drivetrain would be the rear hub's engagement. Is that how it works?

I don't want a massive amount of slack after coasting and then pedaling hard.



jeremy_2640 said:


> I have a Zerode Taniwha and Ti Pinion hardtail. The backlash in the box is quite large but it's not noticeable in regular riding conditions. I have had low and high point of engagement hubs and definitely prefer the high POE hubs with the box. I think the only practical place that it's noticeable is when you are track standing.
> 
> It's never been an issue for me and I think the positives far outweigh the negatives.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes the way you describe it is accurate to how it feels on the bike. I was able to notice the difference between higher and lower engagement hubs with the gearbox which confirms this.



MarkMass said:


> I appreciate your response.
> 
> I've never had a significant issue with low engagement hubs (e.g., 18t DT), but the gearbox's ratchet is new to me. As long as I don't backpedal I can see how the gearbox ratchet would stay engaged and the only slack in the drivetrain would be the rear hub's engagement. Is that how it works?
> 
> I don't want a massive amount of slack after coasting and then pedaling hard.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

The oil is unlikely to degrade overtime particularly if the container is sealed from any moisture/air. Oil is broken down with pressure and contaminants i.e. lubricating between the teeth in a gearbox. So go ahead save some cash and buy in bulk! Where are you located? I'd be happy to go halves if you are in Australia!! 



MacLeod01 said:


> Hi,
> I have question about the pinion box oil.
> Does the oil in the gearbox lose its properties during time ?
> I am asking, because I saw this product on the web: https://pinion-bikes.de/PINION-Ganzjahres-Getriebeoel-1000ml-Vorratsbehaelter-P8901
> ...


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## MacLeod01 (Dec 29, 2012)

jeremy_2640 said:


> Where are you located? I'd be happy to go halves if you are in Australia!!


Hi, I am from the other side of the world. I am located in Bulgaria - a small country in Europe. I still do not have pinion bike, but I am considering one in the near future.
I also have some troubles to decide pinon vs rohloff. But I think it will be pinion after all. I am considering this system for touring/city bike (not for mtb).


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## MacLeod01 (Dec 29, 2012)

I found this article about speed hubs: Torque as it applies to internal-gear hubs for bicycles
In it is written about a torque, generated by the hub on the frame.
For me it is interesting is there such torque, also generated by Pinion gearbox on the frame ?


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

Thanks again for your response. You have two bikes with the Pinion gearbox so that's a great sign! 



jeremy_2640 said:


> Yes the way you describe it is accurate to how it feels on the bike. I was able to notice the difference between higher and lower engagement hubs with the gearbox which confirms this.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

jeremy_2640 said:


> I have a Zerode Taniwha and Ti Pinion hardtail. The backlash in the box is quite large but it's not noticeable in regular riding conditions. I have had low and high point of engagement hubs and definitely prefer the high POE hubs with the box. I think the only practical place that it's noticeable is when you are track standing.
> 
> It's never been an issue for me and I think the positives far outweigh the negatives.


I agree with this.

Is anyone using a fixed rear hub?


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

@mrfixie

How was your experience getting your bike through Carver? I'm pretty interested in trying a Pinion bike and they are on my short list. Your set up looks pretty sweet, was thinking of trying 29+ with a second skinny wheelset.


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## JackP42 (Nov 16, 2007)

MarkMass said:


> I appreciate your response.
> 
> I've never had a significant issue with low engagement hubs (e.g., 18t DT), but the gearbox's ratchet is new to me. As long as I don't backpedal I can see how the gearbox ratchet would stay engaged and the only slack in the drivetrain would be the rear hub's engagement. Is that how it works?
> 
> I don't want a massive amount of slack after coasting and then pedaling hard.


I have a Taniwha. As you describe it is correct. You only notice the low POE in the gearbox if you back pedal, but even a relatively small amount of back pedaling will show this issue. I ride a lot of trails where I am pedaling through rock gardens where clocking the pedals is a necessity, so I definitely notice it. Not the best, but manageable.


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## JackP42 (Nov 16, 2007)

MacLeod01 said:


> Hi, I am from the other side of the world. I am located in Bulgaria - a small country in Europe. I still do not have pinion bike, but I am considering one in the near future.
> I also have some troubles to decide pinon vs rohloff. But I think it will be pinion after all. I am considering this system for touring/city bike (not for mtb).


I have both a Taniwha with the Pinion and a Nicolai with a Rohloff in a Gboxx arrangement. IMO, the Pinion is way better than the Rohloff. Much lower drag. Also, the Rohloff is really a 7 spd gearbox with a high a low range, so the change from 7 to 8 is funky, and you really notice the drag increase significantly when you go to 8 and up.
For MTB, I would never want the weight of a Rohloff in the rear wheel, but for touring/city it is likely not an issue.


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

Thanks for the good feedback.

I wonder if Pinion is working on the internal ratchet. The gripshift to trigger has been mentioned frequently, but it's a minor issue for me. I still run gripshift on one of my bikes and its great for dumping massive amount of gears. With trigger shifting, I can only get this with Di2.



JackP42 said:


> I have a Taniwha. As you describe it is correct. You only notice the low POE in the gearbox if you back pedal, but even a relatively small amount of back pedaling will show this issue. I ride a lot of trails where I am pedaling through rock gardens where clocking the pedals is a necessity, so I definitely notice it. Not the best, but manageable.


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## Skarecrow (Feb 15, 2016)

I finished my dream bike;
Ventana El Gordo
Pinion p1.12
Gates Belt drive


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

BikeRadar's review of the Deviate Guide and it's Pinion gearbox.






I've been thinking about this some more. There's no way you can't do a bit of unintentional back pedaling when coasting through chunky terrain. Just watch the pedals in the video. The reviewer mentions the problem I'm trying to avoid.



JackP42 said:


> I have a Taniwha. As you describe it is correct. You only notice the low POE in the gearbox if you back pedal, but even a relatively small amount of back pedaling will show this issue. I ride a lot of trails where I am pedaling through rock gardens where clocking the pedals is a necessity, so I definitely notice it. Not the best, but manageable.


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## JackP42 (Nov 16, 2007)

MarkMass said:


> BikeRadar's review of the Deviate Guide and it's Pinion gearbox.
> 
> I've been thinking about this some more. There's no way you can't do a bit of unintentional back pedaling when coasting through chunky terrain. Just watch the pedals in the video. The reviewer mentions the problem I'm trying to avoid.


I think the review of the Deviate mirrors my comments on the action of the freewheel in the gearbox. I think there are instances where you may backpedal but not have an issue, say on a flow trail where you aren't pedaling much. I think where you notice the problem is when you backpedal and then need a well timed boost of power. The take up can be very inconsistent throwing your timing into question. So not the optimal setup for doing trials for example.
I still like the Pinion gearbox, but there are compromises so it may not be the best option for every kind of riding.


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

Thanks again for your feedback.

The benefits are huge and I think I'd learn to adapt to the gearbox in time.



JackP42 said:


> I think the review of the Deviate mirrors my comments on the action of the freewheel in the gearbox. I think there are instances where you may backpedal but not have an issue, say on a flow trail where you aren't pedaling much. I think where you notice the problem is when you backpedal and then need a well timed boost of power. The take up can be very inconsistent throwing your timing into question. So not the optimal setup for doing trials for example.
> I still like the Pinion gearbox, but there are compromises so it may not be the best option for every kind of riding.


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

The April edition of Bike Magazine has an article on the Taniwha + Pinion gearbox.


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## phat-ant (Apr 25, 2006)

MarkMass said:


> I'm thinking about pre-ordering the Deviate Guide. The high pivot w/ idler suspension should make it different from anything I've had before. I'm a little unsure because of the pinion gear backlash--seems like the front ratchet is so coarse that a high engagement rear hub doesn't make a difference. I'm not overly sensitive to high vs low engagement rear hubs, however, I don't think you can fix the front ratchet if it becomes an issue.
> 
> View attachment 1178877
> 
> ...


I took a demo ride on the Deviate, and I loved it. Put an order for a frame in, hopefully get it built up early April.


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm jealous! Please upload build pics and a ride report when you get a minute or so. 



phat-ant said:


> I took a demo ride on the Deviate, and I loved it. Put an order for a frame in, hopefully get it built up early April.
> 
> View attachment 1189079


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## Skarecrow (Feb 15, 2016)

phat-ant said:


> I took a demo ride on the Deviate, and I loved it. Put an order for a frame in, hopefully get it built up early April.
> 
> View attachment 1189079


Keep us updated on the build and ride report. I am thinking about selling my Mutz to build one.


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## Emdexpress (Jan 24, 2018)

I did not read all the posts here but I did read a bunch. Please help me understand the need to put heavy gear boxes on bikes. I have been using derailuers since 1966. Improved greatly over the years and now they are close to perfection. I use both eTap and DI2 XT and are as close to maintance free as you can get. No effort button pushing perfect shifts everytime. Last year the Garmin counted over 25,000 shifts on the eTap. Most efficient, lightest and near perfect equipment. So why add a boat anchor to the deal? Two gears and a chain (or belt) is about an efficient drivetrain that you will find. So why the box?


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

No. Add something relevant to the discussion or go away. :nono:



Emdexpress said:


> Please help me understand


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## Emdexpress (Jan 24, 2018)

Maybe you do not understand the purpose of Forums. Share ideas and experiences in the pursuit of better riding and health to better enjoy the sport. So I ask what is the purpose of using these components? If you do not care to answer maybe someone will. I have learned a ton here and I hope some have learned from me. So I am not being critical of the boxes but rather I do not understand why one should use them. I have been enlighten many times here and that is remarkable for someone who already knows everything. Safe Travels!


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## Zaf (Mar 1, 2012)

Emdexpress said:


> Maybe you do not understand the purpose of Forums. Share ideas and experiences in the pursuit of better riding and health to better enjoy the sport. So I ask what is the purpose of using these components? If you do not care to answer maybe someone will. I have learned a ton here and I hope some have learned from me. So I am not being critical of the boxes but rather I do not understand why one should use them. I have been enlighten many times here and that is remarkable for someone who already knows everything. Safe Travels!


- Better wheel building because no need to dish to fit a derailleur/cassette. 
- Better unsprung:sprung mass ratio for suspension kinematics
- More reliable and hard wearing whilst eliminating a major weak point from the bike.
- Concentrates bike weight low and centrally
- You're no longer having to replace an entire drive train 2-4 times every time a gearbox needs an oil change. 
- We know that the lightest bikes are rarely the fastest bikes.

Most importantly, we see these as worthy advantages for the slight power loss.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk


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## phat-ant (Apr 25, 2006)

MarkMass said:


> I'm jealous! Please upload build pics and a ride report when you get a minute or so.


No bike yet, sadly I didnt get any more pictures, the weather was foul and we kept moving. Chris the designer of the bike came over to my local trails and we took a spin around my local stuff, around 28km and about 1000m climbing so I got a pretty good feel for the way it goes up as well as down. I think the biggest thing I found was just the stability of it. Really felt sure footed. More after ive had it for a few weeks and got some more ride time, hopefully in better conditions!


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## Emdexpress (Jan 24, 2018)

Thanks for the response. I need to ponder the information. I wonder if there are opportunities to reduce weight some without added much cost. Without ever have ridden one, I would guess the box would be a huge advantage in muddy and rocky ridding. Appreciate the info....Safe Travels


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

Thanks for your response. We'll be waiting for your report. 



phat-ant said:


> No bike yet, sadly I didnt get any more pictures, the weather was foul and we kept moving. Chris the designer of the bike came over to my local trails and we took a spin around my local stuff, around 28km and about 1000m climbing so I got a pretty good feel for the way it goes up as well as down. I think the biggest thing I found was just the stability of it. Really felt sure footed. More after ive had it for a few weeks and got some more ride time, hopefully in better conditions!


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## Skarecrow (Feb 15, 2016)

Emdexpress said:


> I did not read all the posts here but I did read a bunch. Please help me understand the need to put heavy gear boxes on bikes. I have been using derailuers since 1966. Improved greatly over the years and now they are close to perfection. I use both eTap and DI2 XT and are as close to maintance free as you can get. No effort button pushing perfect shifts everytime. Last year the Garmin counted over 25,000 shifts on the eTap. Most efficient, lightest and near perfect equipment. So why add a boat anchor to the deal? Two gears and a chain (or belt) is about an efficient drivetrain that you will find. So why the box?


I am not an expert and I don't race. This is a hobby for me, I just recently built an El Gordo with the pinion with fat and 29+. I loved the idea of it and am very happy with the performance. It is heavy, with the 26"x4" setup it weighs in at 39lbs. My Mutz is 37lbs. I haven't had it long enough to service but the pedaling is so much smoother then with the derailleur setup, the belt probably helps. I also don't have to worry about breaking the hanger. Even with the heavier weight I can out climb my other bikes, I assume due to the gear ratio. It is expensive, I hope as more people get interested and demand goes up the price will come down. I like it enough I am thinking about selling the Mutz to build the Deviate, Nikolai, or Taniwha. If you get the chance to demo one, go for it. If you can afford it and looking for a low maintenance drive train that is great in mud, snow, and what ever you want to throw at it, get it!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Emdexpress said:


> now they are close to perfection. So why the box?


If you believe that traditional derailleurs are close to perfection, sweet -- enjoy using them. Gearboxes solve many problems for many people. Sounds like you don't need those solutions.


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## JackP42 (Nov 16, 2007)

Another advantage with the gearbox is if you have a full suspension bike, the geometry of the rear suspension can be optimized since there is a single chain line whereas with a cassette (and multiple front chain rings if not 1x) means the geometry is always a compromise, and to compensate, frequently dampening it stiffened to hide the fundamental issue.


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

Mike Levy @ Pinkbike posted his review of the Taniwha.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/should-the-derailleur-die-zerodes-gearbox-equipped-taniwha-review.html


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## phat-ant (Apr 25, 2006)

yeah, its not very complimentary is it! I guess best thing for anyone to do would be to go and demo one.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

I stopped taking a lot of reviews seriously after seeing the reviewers skills and taking into account who pays their bills. I generally only trust someone I know.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Zaf (Mar 1, 2012)

Paul Aston has been on a G16 GPI for a while and has some serious hustle to him.

I've recently paid for my Ion G15 GPI and expecting delivery at the end of May this year. Better sell some of my other bikes to subsidise this venture, but I'll be sure to post my feelings on it once I've got it all up and running. 

Sent from my Agora 4G Pro using Tapatalk


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Emdexpress said:


> I did not read all the posts here but I did read a bunch. Please help me understand the need to put heavy gear boxes on bikes. I have been using derailuers since 1966. Improved greatly over the years and now they are close to perfection. I use both eTap and DI2 XT and are as close to maintance free as you can get. No effort button pushing perfect shifts everytime. Last year the Garmin counted over 25,000 shifts on the eTap. Most efficient, lightest and near perfect equipment. So why add a boat anchor to the deal? Two gears and a chain (or belt) is about an efficient drivetrain that you will find. So why the box?


Until you try a Rohloff or a Pinion you just won't understand. It may not be ideal for racing the but reliability, smoothness, and basic "rightness" of a gearbox on a bike is obvious.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Emdexpress said:


> Maybe you do not understand the purpose of Forums. Share ideas and experiences in the pursuit of better riding and health to better enjoy the sport. So I ask what is the purpose of using these components? If you do not care to answer maybe someone will. I have learned a ton here and I hope some have learned from me. So I am not being critical of the boxes but rather I do not understand why one should use them. I have been enlighten many times here and that is remarkable for someone who already knows everything. Safe Travels!


This is old-school internet thinking when everything was an argument and conflict seemed to be the only purpose. I understand your criticisms of gearboxes but a lot of us really like them in spite of their differences from derailleurs. I, for one, am going to start working on a Pinion expedition bike.


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

Ailuropoda said:


> It may not be ideal for racing ...


Why not? Please, consider:
https://www.rohloff.de/en/experience/rider-reports/#c9920



__ https://www.facebook.com/KuzminSkiTech/posts/1411707472230323


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## Emdexpress (Jan 24, 2018)

I was totally against gear boxes but after reading everything here, I was ready to try one out. Even though the weight for a XC Guy makes me swallow hard but obviously will not be using it for that. Then I read a review that said you cannot shift under load or as stated above, very little load. Issue is for me I charge steep grades as fast as I can, then shift as the grades build often to 10%. At the top of the grade I am in my lowest gear and the last several shifts are made under a bunch of pressure. My eTap and DI2 XT have no issues under those conditions which I see a lot of. So that is an issue I cannot live with. It would seem I would need to start the climb as about the same gear I will top the grade. Am I wrong here? I would really like to buy one except for the shifting deal. I am sure this will change given our creativity.


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## Zaf (Mar 1, 2012)

Emdexpress said:


> I was totally against gear boxes but after reading everything here, I was ready to try one out. Even though the weight for a XC Guy makes me swallow hard but obviously will not be using it for that. Then I read a review that said you cannot shift under load or as stated above, very little load. Issue is for me I charge steep grades as fast as I can, then shift as the grades build often to 10%. At the top of the grade I am in my lowest gear and the last several shifts are made under a bunch of pressure. My eTap and DI2 XT have no issues under those conditions which I see a lot of. So that is an issue I cannot live with. It would seem I would need to start the climb as about the same gear I will top the grade. Am I wrong here? I would really like to buy one except for the shifting deal. I am sure this will change given our creativity.


- Give slightly increased power input for two turns
- Relax torque onto pedals
- Shift to intended gear (it doesn't need to wind onto/over a cassette) 
- Continue pedalling

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk


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## barryinuk (Jun 18, 2016)

Two years on my titanium Pinion MTB - built for me. One oil change is all. Haven't tracked mileage, but guessing at c.4,000 all offroad, much of it in filthy British winter crap. Belt drive still in excellent state; no signs of wear and tear anywhere else; no breakages or problems apart from a few hits on my carbon rims.
Real plus is that I can wash it with a power washer and clear conscience (avoiding obvious bearing risk areas). Early belt squeak cured by regular silicone spray application.
It IS relatively heavy, but I trade that against the vast reliability advantage.
I don't know why noise comes up here - there just isn't any (apart from companions' crashing derailleur changes when the terrain changes rapidly.
Horses for courses.... One man's meat...


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Emdexpress said:


> I was totally against gear boxes but after reading everything here, I was ready to try one out. Even though the weight for a XC Guy makes me swallow hard but obviously will not be using it for that. Then I read a review that said you cannot shift under load or as stated above, very little load. Issue is for me I charge steep grades as fast as I can, then shift as the grades build often to 10%. At the top of the grade I am in my lowest gear and the last several shifts are made under a bunch of pressure. My eTap and DI2 XT have no issues under those conditions which I see a lot of. So that is an issue I cannot live with. It would seem I would need to start the climb as about the same gear I will top the grade. Am I wrong here? I would really like to buy one except for the shifting deal. I am sure this will change given our creativity.


You're wearing out your drivetrains and will snap a chain one day. Chains don't like being shifted under heavy load.

I'm more mechanically aware than most riders and ease up on the power while shifting more than a lot of people I see, especially newer riders who have only ridden modern drivetrains that shift fairly consistently under pretty high load. Having said that I also own 3spd and 5spd Sram hubs and when I'm on those bikes I have to ease off the power completely to shift, like basically pause pedaling for a moment. It's enough of a difference that it makes me appreciate that even with my style I'm still sending some watts through the chain when shifting gears on a normal bike. This manifests in that accelerating away from a stop sign while trying to outrun the car behind me is harder on the gearboxes and if I was climbing a steep trail I'd need more room and time to make a shift. If I was in technical terrain it could be tricky. This is as much or more of a stumbling block for gearboxes as the weight and drag. Honestly, I bet most riders wouldn't notice the weight or drag.

So here's my list of things that need to change for mass adoption of gearboxes in MTB:
-Being able to shift under a little power. As in the 90s people can learn to ease off the power to shift. It's much harder to stop pedaling to shift.
-Trigger shifter. No one likes the grip shift. Even if you think you do you actually don't.
-A belt with a very simple (or no) tensioner. Seriously, the point is to reduce maintanence and you still have a chain and two jockey wheels pivoting by the tire? Not enough of a reduction in maintanence.


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## barryinuk (Jun 18, 2016)

Lelandjt said:


> You're wearing out your drivetrains and will snap a chain one day. Chains don't like being shifted under heavy load.


Sounds like another advert for Pinion.....


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

barryinuk said:


> Sounds like another advert for Pinion.....


No, just the experience of someone who's be racing and wrenching professionally for over 20 years.


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## phat-ant (Apr 25, 2006)

Only 1 ride down, but so far pretty darn good!


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## barryinuk (Jun 18, 2016)

Good to hear - what's the all up weight?

Barry


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

*VitalMTB's Review of the Zerode Taniwha*

Vital's review is really good! The write-up was extensive and the video was especially informative.

https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/gu...Cane-Creek-Edition,22581#product-reviews/3190


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## leonidnk (Feb 24, 2017)

*The big obstacle*



MarkMass said:


> Vital's review is really good! The write-up was extensive and the video was especially informative.
> 
> https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/gu...Cane-Creek-Edition,22581#product-reviews/3190


Out of https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/gu...ane-Creek-Edition,22581#product-reviews/3190: "To shift, you have to stop pedaling slightly, essentially removing the load from the drivetrain. [...] It is possible to shift while still pedaling but only under a very light load. As time goes on the Pinion gearbox does break in a bit, and shifting while lightly spinning becomes easier."
These two (to be familiar with shifting, break in) nuance are a very big obstacle to write an objective review. Very big!

I am familiar with the shifting, my gearbox got about 5000 km. However, I am not able to write an objective review - I love the system.:thumbsup:


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

*Danson EWR homage*

Here's for the mix: my home build Pinion bike:









Based on the EWR Original Woods Bike design. 
650B/27.5 with Fox SC32 or Lauf forks. Hope brakes, Hope front hub, chain drive. 12Kg with the Fox fork.
7005/7020 tube mix of tubes, Ahrens dropouts with Paragon Machine Works sliders.
Internal full cable runs for gears and rear brake. Routing fitted for stealth dropper between the box and the bridge.

I ran the Pinion rear hub for a while, but found that it was so loud and clicky that I swapped it out for the hugely expensive, but brilliant https://onyxrp.com/store/mtb-hubs/mtb-cl-hgss-142-12mm-thru/. Instant engagement, absolutely silent.

Probably only 300Km on it so far, but no problems through a UK winter and while I would prefer a trigger shifter, the twist works fine.

I've ridden both Rohloff and Alfine hubs on other bikes, and like them both for the ease of maintenance and sheer sense of putting the gears inside, but the Pinion wins with the better weight disrtibution and the better losses from not adopting a planetary gearbox layout.

Next time I'll make it longer in the top tube, slacken the head a little and get around to machining an aluminium seatstay splitter so that I can try out a Gates belt.

















































All the best,


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

Danson67 said:


> ...but the Pinion wins with the better weight distribution


The weight distribution is nice, isn't it?

Did you weld that frame yourself? It looks good!


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

Yes, my own welding.

The weight distribution was the thing that I really didn't like about the Rohloff and Alfines.
Having grown up with fully rigid steel mountain bikes, I wanted that light rear end back.

On my Alfine bike, if I ran it with a rigid front fork it was hard work to keep the front end down and I couldn't hop the back end easily.
With the Pinion, although it weighs around the same as the hub gear bikes, it feels so much whippier.

Just looking forward to putting a C-12 gearbox on soon to get a little weight off and also lose some of the huge gear range that I'm really not using.

All the best,


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## ZigaK (Sep 9, 2009)

What rear hub did you replace the pinion one with? It seems you were typing to quickly and missed the name of the hub?


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

Sorry, missed that.
The Pinion hub was replaced with one from Onyx.

https://onyxrp.com/store/mtb-hubs/mtb-iso-hgss-142-12mm-thru/

These have a sprag clutch mechanism, not ratchet and paws, so they have instant engagement.
It's a bit like the low end Shimano silent roller clutches, bit can take loads more torque.

All the best.


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## Fattyrider38 (Jun 7, 2018)

Hey guys, just got a Pilot Locum Titanium bike with a Pinion C12 Gearbox and after the third ride I am loving it. I just have one question for you all who have been riding them for a while. After the 2nd ride I noticed a rather loud creaking sound coming from my cranks when I climb steep grades out of the saddle. Has any one else had this happen to them? and how did you fix it if you have? I also have the gates belt drive and I love how silent and efficient it is. Im sure its probably something as simple as removing the cranks and greasing them up, but I'm not sure if the sound is a result of the cranks themselves, or the actual gearbox creaking from the bolts where it is attached to the frame. If it was a regular bike i would assume it was a problem with the bottom bracket itself and remove and grease it up to eliminate but this bike does not appear to have a bottom bracket. Any advice?/Info on what I should try first? - Thanks Guys


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

Try the 6 M6 bolts holding the box to the frame bridge first.

If you undo all 6 and drop the box out, you may be able to see any rubbing between the box and the frame.
Lube the bolts and torque back up to 10 N/m in the sequence shown here: 







If that doesn't fix it, move on to the crank/BB axle interface.

All the best, 
Dan Chambers


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## barryinuk (Jun 18, 2016)

Fattyrider38 said:


> "After the 2nd ride I noticed a rather loud creaking sound coming from my cranks when I climb steep grades out of the saddle. Has any one else had this happen to them? and how did you fix it if you have? I also have the gates belt drive and I love how silent and efficient it is. Im sure its probably something as simple as removing the cranks and greasing them up, but I'm not sure if the sound is a result of the cranks themselves, or the actual gearbox creaking from the bolts where it is attached to the frame."


I had a similar experience with my P12 and wentb through the same thought process. In the end, I discovered that it was the belt creaking on the cogwheel(s) - especially in dry weather. Solved it by buying silicon spray from Halfords and using liberally on the belt. Worth a try! As the Belt has worn a bit more (over two years riding now) it's been less of an issue.


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## Fattyrider38 (Jun 7, 2018)

barryinuk said:


> I had a similar experience with my P12 and wentb through the same thought process. In the end, I discovered that it was the belt creaking on the cogwheel(s) - especially in dry weather. Solved it by buying silicon spray from Halfords and using liberally on the belt. Worth a try! As the Belt has worn a bit more (over two years riding now) it's been less of an issue.


 I actually bought some of that spray from amazon as appreciation and it should get here today or tomorrow so I will try that first before I move onto the cranks/gearbox


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## Fattyrider38 (Jun 7, 2018)

Danson67 said:


> Try the 6 M6 bolts holding the box to the frame bridge first.
> 
> If you undo all 6 and drop the box out, you may be able to see any rubbing between the box and the frame.
> Lube the bolts and torque back up to 10 N/m in the sequence shown here:
> ...


 Thanks for the info, I will try it tonight before I go on a ride, I normally ride with headphones and I literally cannot stand creaks coming from my bike, so Im trying not to overreact/worry about it to much until I try everything first. I literally sold my last bottom bracket and replaced it because I couldn't get a small creak to go away, and a pair of brakes because they wouldn't stop squeeling so Im really hoping its not going to be an issue with the pinion, but no one else that I have been able to find through my research has complained about it so I guess I will see lol!


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## barryinuk (Jun 18, 2016)

Just a quick note on my recent experience with Pinion's warranty service - seems to be a rare one as no one else has commented.

I had a problem where the shifter started going beyond the 1-12 fixed range - I was able to force it back but the shifting seemed stiff after.

Contacted Pinion directly as I haven't really had a relationship with my original supplier and he doesn't seem to be in business now.

Pinion Support team were EXCELLENT (thanks Andre!) and advised an immediate despatch for warranty repair. They also supplied FOC the tool I needed to remove my front cogwheel - the last mounting bolt can't be removed until the cogwheel is off.
Shipped it to Germany and about ten days later it came back, already fitted with new gear cables.

Fault analysis said "threaded pin of switch mechanism loose".

Work done said "replacement of threaded pin; check of (performance); replacement of switching shaft with welded positioning bearing as precautionary measure; gearbox filled with oil; leak test; functional test."

Clearly this is a known issue as the response to my report was instant. But their service process was very smooth and professional. I had the cost of shipment to Germany (not cheap) but offset by their FOC supply of the cogwheel removal tool (which I needed anyway).

One additional comment: when I removed the front cogwheel, I realised that it had been coming loose before all this as the clamp ring had loosened. It wasn't obvious in riding, but could have been an issue if not caught early. That's worth checking regularly on your own Pinion 'boxes.


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## Fattyrider38 (Jun 7, 2018)

barryinuk said:


> Just a quick note on my recent experience with Pinion's warranty service - seems to be a rare one as no one else has commented.
> 
> I had a problem where the shifter started going beyond the 1-12 fixed range - I was able to force it back but the shifting seemed stiff after.
> 
> ...


 Thats good to know, I really am amazed with all of the moving parts, and how complicate the device is in general that there are so few problems as there are, when I had it opened up to install the shifter cables it reminded me of looking at a beautiful clock on the inside, the gears were arranged in a beautiful round like pattern. Definitely a marvel of modern engineering, my hats off to the designers at pinion, it really is a functional piece of art.


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## Fattyrider38 (Jun 7, 2018)

Fattyrider38 said:


> Thats good to know, I really am amazed with all of the moving parts, and how complicate the device is in general that there are so few problems as there are, when I had it opened up to install the shifter cables it reminded me of looking at a beautiful clock on the inside, the gears were arranged in a beautiful round like pattern. Definitely a marvel of modern engineering, my hats off to the designers at pinion, it really is a functional piece of art.


So I just removed the cranks and greased the hell out of them and well as you can guess still creaking, so question had anyone else ever had this same problem? And I know the next step is to remove the whole gearbox but what part do I grease and what do I not grease? Also I don't have one of those spider lock ring tools does it have to be a Pinion specific tool or do any spider lock ring tools work? Just sucks because I'm gonna have to order the damn tool and wait days for it before I can fix this problem. It didn't freak the first couple of rides, so I know it's a fixable issue just turning into a pain in the ass!


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

Fattyrider38 said:


> And I know the next step is to remove the whole gearbox but what part do I grease and what do I not grease?


You're talking about removing the six bolts, taking the box off, and bolting it back on again, right? I'd lube the six bolts and nothing more.


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## barryinuk (Jun 18, 2016)

I wouldn't lube the bolts at all. It's crucial that they stay fixed to avoid damage or worse, so if you do remove them, use Loctite to secure them.

I doubt they are the problem anyway. There MIGHT be a problem of friction between the 'box and frame causing the noise, and I suppose you could grease any obvious interface points.


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## Fattyrider38 (Jun 7, 2018)

barryinuk said:


> I wouldn't lube the bolts at all. It's crucial that they stay fixed to avoid damage or worse, so if you do remove them, use Loctite to secure them.
> 
> I doubt they are the problem anyway. There MIGHT be a problem of friction between the 'box and frame causing the noise, and I suppose you could grease any obvious interface points.


 Yup your right, it wasn't the gearbox at all, or the cranks, it was the Slider bolts that were creaking and reverberating all the way through the frame, put some loctite on the bolts and wamoo! Silent as a fart on a date. Glad it wasn't the gearbox.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

What are the slider bolts? Curious on this, have had similar noises on my titanium hard tail and no issues on my zerode.


Fattyrider38 said:


> Yup your right, it wasn't the gearbox at all, or the cranks, it was the Slider bolts that were creaking and reverberating all the way through the frame, put some loctite on the bolts and wamoo! Silent as a fart on a date. Glad it wasn't the gearbox.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

Has anyone built up their own pinion fat bike? I could use a bit of assembly help/guidance.

Issue I'm having is that when I mount the spider to the gearbox and torque the spider lock ring to spec, the amount of effort to turn the driveshaft/spindle seems to increase significantly to the point that it feels as if the spider is dragging on the casing.

I'll try and attach pics to show what I'm talking about.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## barryinuk (Jun 18, 2016)

I suggest you drop a note to Pinion Support team - they handle English well and can advise. It's not a problem I've experienced.


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

barryinuk said:


> I suggest you drop a note to Pinion Support team - they handle English well and can advise. It's not a problem I've experienced.


I did reach out to pinion, but used the North America contact. Took a couple of days as he reached back to Germany. Turns out there is a revised fatbike spider for the c-line gear box. One is on its way to me. Because of a non biking planned trip next week...most likely won't get to complete assembly of the bike and take it for a spin for another week and a half at best.

Couple of things that I did learn from talking to the North America rep:

- the CNC'd cranks logically have much higher tolerances than the cast cranks. If you watch the serivce/maintenance/install videos and read the manual - you should be able to pull the crank arm back out after torquing the 10mm central cap screw. The tighter tolerance of the CNC cranks make it much more difficult to do this compared to what you see on the video.

- There was also a discrepancy between the manual and the spider on what the spider lock ring torque value is. Manual was a more recent update and therefore the recommended torque. Think he said especially for fat bikes. That value being 40NM where the spider (that didn't work with my C1.12 box) was labeled with 30NM.


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## sox (Apr 21, 2005)

*First thumb shifter prototype*

Hi there
I finally could build the first amaizing working thumb shifter for my P1.12. 
Love it so much....

CAD Model:
http://mtbn.ws/p1e461

Pic (all CNC machined):
http://mtbn.ws/p1e3h4

Video:
http://mtbn.ws/v13cr

Now shifting and breaing under any conditions easily possible and lever can be pullled all the way to the bar.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

Wow that's impressive, sounds crisp! How is the force to actuate? How many gears can you shift in one push? Any chance of some more detailed pics of the mechanism?

Again well done.


sox said:


> Hi there
> I finally could build the first amaizing working thumb shifter for my P1.12.
> Love it so much....
> 
> ...


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## sox (Apr 21, 2005)

All machined in China but still really extensive. Other people buy a complete bike for that money.
The higher force of actuating was my greatest concern. It definately needs way more power than SRAM or Shimano but on the trail that is no problem.
Maximum range of 3 gears at the time is enough for 99%. No need for more.

The internal mechanism is top secret until I know what comes next .

By the way, here are the paddles (just for C-line):
https://bikerumor.com/2017/03/15/nahbs-2017-tout-terrain-teases-belt-drive-pinion-plus-bike-cinq-prepares-drop-flat-bar-shifters-pinion-colab-carbon-forks-appear/


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

sox said:


> Hi there
> I finally could build the first amaizing working thumb shifter for my P1.12.
> Love it so much....


Did you machine that yourself? Looks fantastic.

My dream I think is to have left and right paddles for up and downshifting. I've been thinking of trying to cobble something together with bar-end shifters. Wow though, your implementation looks fantastic.


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

Ooh, looks good. Is there a way for us to help it into production?
Funds or testing?


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

Nice work, sox, that is no small feat.


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## sox (Apr 21, 2005)

I really thought of bringing it into production. But the cost is too high compared to potential customers.
I would need to sell more than 10‘000 units to be competitive. Before that more development is needed.

From this point of view probably no production 😳.
Or is there somebody who would give more than 100‘000 USD for startimg a serious business?


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

I presume you have contacted Pinion about supporting this project?

The twist shift is the biggest single thing that most reviews (especially MTB-orientated reviews) complain about.

On cost, maybe out of reach for the utility bike market, but the 2-part Cinq5 Shift:R retails at €299 with the road ones at €599 for Rohloff.
Looks to me that your thumbshifter could also work with Rohloff, perhaps with small changes, to access a bigger market?

All the best,


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

Could you sell the idea to Pinion in exchange for free future product? Since you already have your personal needs met and you otherwise (probably accurately) view scaled manufacture as being too complicated and expensive to pay off?


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## sox (Apr 21, 2005)

We will see what comes. I am in contact with pinion 😉


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

Well, I’m growing frustrated with Pinion as a company. And I haven’t even been able to ride the bike yet. 

The North American rep has been easy to communicate with and quite responsive. He reached back to Germany on our 3rd and didn’t get a response from them until our 5th. That response being that the c1.12 requires a different/redesigned spider for fat bikes. One would be shipped to the NA rep in Colorado and then to me in Maine. 

As far as I know, the spider still hadn’t made it to Colorado. Nor has a timeframe been given. Not so sure I’m happy with such a large investment in a bike that is utterly useless without support when you need it. 

At least I can swap my rohloff out for a conventional drive train on my commuter bike. Frame was built specifically for that flexibility. 

At the least, seems Pinion as a company could use some improvement in communication with its reps and distributors - as neither knew that the standard fatbike spider doesn’t work with the c-line boxes. Had they known , unlikely that I’d be here today. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

First post, so go easy...

Got me one of them there Deviates, having demoed One back in May and being blown away by how it rode, been building this up since September...

The Gearbox one by tom.howard.562, on Flickr

She's a little different from stock...

DPX2 rear shock
36 Factory Grip 2, 180mm travel
Chris King hubs on Santa Cruz Reserve 30mm rims
CK Headset
Deore 4 piston brakes for now (waiting on Trickstuff Maxima brakes to arrive, in April)
Enve M7 cockpit (35mmx800mm
170mm Reverb 1x
WTB Volt Carbon
Burgtec Penthouse MkIV Ti
Minion DHF 2.5 WT/DHR 2.4WT

All up weight is 36lbs flat

As for the pinion, there isn't anything more i can add on the operation of it, you get used to it, and the increased suspension performance from a lighter rear end is well worth it on this, a much more gravity orientated build.

My only niggle with it is the Q factor of the cranks, they run super close to the swing arm, only a mm or so clearance which, as you can see from this pic after a 4 mile (admittedly sloppy) ride around my local bike park, leads to pretty heavy foot rub.

1st ride by tom.howard.562, on Flickr

That, combined with the cranks, lets be kind, sturdy weight, has meant I'm having some new cranks made, increasing the Q factor 5mm each side, and from carbon/aluminium to try and drop a bit of fat from it, so will update on progress of that.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

Tom Howard said:


> First post, so go easy...
> 
> Got me one of them there Deviates, having demoed One back in May and being blown away by how it rode, been building this up since September...
> 
> ...


Interested in the cranks, is it possible to get another set made? Any details? Great build!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

jeremy_2640 said:


> Interested in the cranks, is it possible to get another set made? Any details? Great build!


Thanks, the cranks are in the very early stages at the moment (i dropped the bike with the designer on Saturday to get all the required measurements) so don't really have any details other than the brief I gave them (170mm, extra 10mm Qfactor, light as practical). As for getting another set made, it's a project he is fitting around all the other stuff he is doing, so not sure how willing/able he would be to do any sort of production run but its something we'll discuss, as you aren't the first to ask


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

Which series Pinion box are you using?
It's probably not worth changing boxes just for the clearance, but the extruded and machined P-line is 8mm wider (174mm) than the cast C-line boxes (166mm).

All their cranks (other than the daytime ones) have the same dimensions.

All the best,


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

It's a C series, I had wondered if the frame had been tested/prototyped with the P series, hence the tight tolerances, but I think it's a bit heavier? Having the cranks made gives the best of all worlds (176mm q factor, lighter of the 2 boxes and lighter cranks), and is probably cheaper than swapping the 'boxes , as i cant see that there would be much of a market for S/H ones, given the expected longevity and that bikes/frames tend to come with them equipped.


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## sox (Apr 21, 2005)

Here I show the interior construction of my nice working thumb shifter....

https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/projekt-pinion-trigger.867494/page-4

No production planned 🙁


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

sox said:


> No production planned 🙁


That sucks, have you spoken to anyone else, aside from pinion, about buying the design?


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## sox (Apr 21, 2005)

No Interest from anybody. Pinion was initially interestet but did not do anything.


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

Hi guys, I initially posted my project Carver O'Beast on page 3 (post #202) and I now have over 8,800 trouble free miles on the bike. I did the first oil change in October 2018 (at 7,200 miles) and was shocked to get only a few drops of old oil out! I searched for comments on this and found that this was fairly common..

Fast forward to today, and I am noticing oil leaking from the input/output shaft (drive side, behind the spider) and I figure there must be likely two seals there for the inner and outer journals. Anyone else seen leaking like this?

I'm hoping that I can get replacement seals if that's what is needed.. Not keen to ship my P 1.18 back to Germany to get it worked on, I use this bike every day..


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

I suspect that the original 60ml that would have been filled when new is about enough to coat all the internals, so doesn't drain out completely.
Pinion's instruction video suggests using a wire to help with some air exchange.
60ml of new oil seems pretty generous, given that it's just a light splash lubrication system.

Looking at the Rohloff hub, it only uses 25ml of oil, but does have 25ml of flush cleaner to be used first before new oil. Their video suggests that this cleaner combined with the old oil could be between 25 and 50ml, so zero to 25ml volume of old oil in there.
Rohloff also suggest balancing the air pressure in those hub. 
Perhaps the oil leak in your Pinion is caused by the added 60ml of oil increasing the internal pressure?

I'd try laying the bike on the gearside and removing the oil plug, then making sure that the oil hole is not full of oil, so that the air pressure can balance. Then replace the plug and cover.

All the best,
Dan Chambers


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

mrfixie said:


> Hi guys, I initially posted my project Carver O'Beast on page 3 (post #202) and I now have over 8,800 trouble free miles on the bike. I did the first oil change in October 2018 (at 7,200 miles) and was shocked to get only a few drops of old oil out! I searched for comments on this and found that this was fairly common..
> 
> Fast forward to today, and I am noticing oil leaking from the input/output shaft (drive side, behind the spider) and I figure there must be likely two seals there for the inner and outer journals. Anyone else seen leaking like this?
> 
> I'm hoping that I can get replacement seals if that's what is needed.. Not keen to ship my P 1.18 back to Germany to get it worked on, I use this bike every day..


This seems to be a fairly common occurrence. Particularly if flying with a big pressure gradient between these seals. Pinion or authorised tech centre would need to do rebuild. They don't support anyone else doing it.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## JimF777 (Sep 23, 2018)

Tom Howard said:


> First post, so go easy...
> 
> Got me one of them there Deviates, having demoed One back in May and being blown away by how it rode, been building this up since September...
> 
> ...


I was just reading up on the Deviate bike, was my first introduction to the pinion gears. I wish they were local here so I could try one


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

JimF777 said:


> I was just reading up on the Deviate bike, was my first introduction to the pinion gears. I wish they were local here so I could try one


Great build. You must be very happy!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

Danson67 said:


> I suspect that the original 60ml that would have been filled when new is about enough to coat all the internals, so doesn't drain out completely.
> Pinion's instruction video suggests using a wire to help with some air exchange.
> 60ml of new oil seems pretty generous, given that it's just a light splash lubrication system.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dan, I did take time attempting to get all of the old oil out, including a toothpick to break any surface tension bubble and re-angling the bike to be sure the drain was at the low spot - for a couple of hours. This low drain volume made me wonder about a leak, but I had never seen evidence, until now. There is visible evidence of oil seeping between the input and output shaft, hence my seal replacement question.

On a related note, my Gates belt failed on my ride yesterday... Not thrilled with only ~9K miles on it!


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

jeremy_2640 said:


> This seems to be a fairly common occurrence. Particularly if flying with a big pressure gradient between these seals. Pinion or authorised tech centre would need to do rebuild. They don't support anyone else doing it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Jeremy, my bike has never flown, and only suffered normal pressure differentials due to temperature variation etc. Sounds like I'll have to return it for service to get the seals replaced. 8.8K miles doesn't sound like expected life for labyrinth seals!


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

Anyone else willing SRAM to get together with Pinion to make a servo that will operate the gear change from a wireless shifter, or just me? *crosses fingers*

Quick update on the cranks I mentioned, a plastic 3D model has been printed, and Clearance to the swingarm is up from a paper thin 1mm, to a much more healthy 6mm


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## csm024 (Jul 1, 2011)

Tom Howard, where did you get the orange decals from? They look great!



Tom Howard said:


> First post, so go easy...
> 
> Got me one of them there Deviates, having demoed One back in May and being blown away by how it rode, been building this up since September...
> 
> ...


----------



## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

csm024 said:


> Tom Howard, where did you get the orange decals from? They look great!


The frame ones are from Invisiframe. Deviate supplied the dimensions etc, then they matched to the Fox orange.

The bars and rims come with with a full sheet of different colours. Luckily Fox orange is a popular choice!


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## csm024 (Jul 1, 2011)

Fantastic, thanks



Tom Howard said:


> The frame ones are from Invisiframe. Deviate supplied the dimensions etc, then they matched to the Fox orange.
> 
> The bars and rims come with with a full sheet of different colours. Luckily Fox orange is a popular choice!


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

Update on my carbon cranks, been down to the workshop today, seen an almost finished version and very happy. Got the extra 5mm of clearance desired and the weight saving is significant...

One of the challenges was attaching them to the axle without using the carbon to clamp them so as part of the metal insert that bonds into the crank there is an expander, so it clamps really well.

How much is significant I hear you cry? Well, I don’t have exact numbers, but not quite half the OEM ones


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

Tom Howard said:


> Update on my carbon cranks, been down to the workshop today, seen an almost finished version and very happy. Got the extra 5mm of clearance desired and the weight saving is significant...
> 
> One of the challenges was attaching them to the axle without using the carbon to clamp them so as part of the metal insert that bonds into the crank there is an expander, so it clamps really well.
> 
> How much is significant I hear you cry? Well, I don't have exact numbers, but not quite half the OEM ones


Keen to see the finished product!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Timbo (Jan 8, 2004)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1769923126/cinq-shift-r-for-pinion


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

Timbo said:


> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1769923126/cinq-shift-r-for-pinion


That looks ace, but doesn't seem to work with 1x style dropper levers. :cryin:

Edit, I can use a reverb button over the bars, so backed it provisionally, so it will arrive in May hopefully, unless anyone else comes up with a single sided one in the next 30days...


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

__
http://instagr.am/p/BvEBxRXgY9q/

Here's what the crank will use to clamp to the axle...


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

Gripshift be GONE!!!

Package arrived this morning, fitting it tomorrow. first impressions are that its well made, and a nice smooth trigger action, looks like it will fit comfortably with a reverb plunger too, even under the bars, which pleases me.

Untitled by tom.howard.562, on Flickr


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## csm024 (Jul 1, 2011)

Tom Howard said:


> Gripshift be GONE!!!
> 
> Package arrived this morning, fitting it tomorrow. first impressions are that its well made, and a nice smooth trigger action, looks like it will fit comfortably with a reverb plunger too, even under the bars, which pleases me.
> 
> Untitled by tom.howard.562, on Flickr


Very interested to hear your feedback on the performance of the Cinq trigger shifters. If it makes clean and easy shifts between gears (I read a review for a rohloff gearbox company paired with the Cinq shifters and there were some issues with slow shifting and not making clean shifts between gears The Monkey Lab: Tech Talk: Neil's Cinq5 Shift:R Rohloff Trigger Shifter Review), I'll be ordering one soon for my deviate guide.


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

csm024 said:


> Very interested to hear your feedback on the performance of the Cinq trigger shifters. If it makes clean and easy shifts between gears (I read a review for a rohloff gearbox company paired with the Cinq shifters and there were some issues with slow shifting and not making clean shifts between gears The Monkey Lab: Tech Talk: Neil's Cinq5 Shift:R Rohloff Trigger Shifter Review), I'll be ordering one soon for my deviate guide.


Hadn't seen that, decent article. interesting what he says about 'slow shifting' seems to be that he means going through the gears from top to bottom, rather than each individual shift being slower. thats not really an issue for me, as I rarely shift more than 2 or 3 at a time, so shouldn't be a problem.


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## csm024 (Jul 1, 2011)

Tom Howard said:


> Hadn't seen that, decent article. interesting what he says about 'slow shifting' seems to be that he means going through the gears from top to bottom, rather than each individual shift being slower. thats not really an issue for me, as I rarely shift more than 2 or 3 at a time, so shouldn't be a problem.


Agreed. It's only on very few occasions that I dump more than 3 shifts at a time; the part of the review that caught my attention was the increase in potential mis-shifts. But, the model reviewed is at least a few years old and I'd imagine Cinq, being a smaller innovation company, is making improvements on an iterative basis with all new and existing products. Anyway, excited to hear how you make out with them!


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

My god...
Really impressed.
I have a Pinion 1.18 and very interested in your thumbies.
Is there any possibility of getting a unit?


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

Cagapraos said:


> My god...
> Really impressed.
> I have a Pinion 1.18 and very interested in your thumbies.
> Is there any possibility of getting a unit?


I'm afraid not at the moment, they only make them for the newer C series boxes currently.


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

sox said:


> Here I show the interior construction of my nice working thumb shifter....
> 
> https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/projekt-pinion-trigger.867494/page-4
> 
> No production planned ?


I have a P1.18.
Is there any possibility of having a unit of this trigger?


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

That looks pretty awesome except for the dropper lever interference. After 2 years on my Taniwha, I definitively despise the rotory shifter and feel it's one of the primary drawback to the system


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

I was hoping Archer Components could make it work with 2 of their D1x units. I even gave them my bike for a couple weeks to play around with the idea a year ago.


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

laksboy said:


> That looks pretty awesome except for the dropper lever interference.


theres an easy work around, either use a grip collar mounted cable system (KS make one) or use the older Reverb plunger. or get the cable conversion for reverbs. I'm using the plunger, fits fine, even under the bar...

Getting there by tom.howard.562, on Flickr


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## Timbo (Jan 8, 2004)

Might be useful to some of you: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3720176


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## csm024 (Jul 1, 2011)

Tom Howard said:


> theres an easy work around, either use a grip collar mounted cable system (KS make one) or use the older Reverb plunger. or get the cable conversion for reverbs. I'm using the plunger, fits fine, even under the bar...
> 
> Getting there by tom.howard.562, on Flickr


Tom Howard, any update on the performance of the Cinq shifters? Any issues? Thanks!


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

csm024 said:


> Tom Howard, any update on the performance of the Cinq shifters? Any issues? Thanks!


only really given it a shakedown so far, No issues per se, it shifts one gear at a time, so obviously its nowhere near as quick to go through the 'box as the grip shift, but the only place i can see that being a problem is on unfamiliar trails, when you are more likely to be caught in the wrong gear. The lever throw is quite long in use, so I'm going to rotate them round a bit. Shifts feel good though.

What I really like though is the uniform width of normal grips, that don't move in my hand as i hold onto them. This for me is by for the biggest plus


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## csm024 (Jul 1, 2011)

Tom Howard said:


> only really given it a shakedown so far, No issues per se, it shifts one gear at a time, so obviously its nowhere near as quick to go through the 'box as the grip shift, but the only place i can see that being a problem is on unfamiliar trails, when you are more likely to be caught in the wrong gear. The lever throw is quite long in use, so I'm going to rotate them round a bit. Shifts feel good though.
> 
> What I really like though is the uniform width of normal grips, that don't move in my hand as i hold onto them. This for me is by for the biggest plus


Interesting, thanks. Glad to hear it shifts cleanly. I would love to be able to use my favored grips (and not the gripshift models), so looking forward to hearing if you are able to remedy the longer lever throw.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

Tom Howard said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BvEBxRXgY9q/
> 
> Here's what the crank will use to clamp to the axle...


What's happening with your crank Tom? Any updates?


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

jeremy_2640 said:


> What's happening with your crank Tom? Any updates?


Yes and No.

Yes, in that the prototype went off to get ISO tested, as its going into full production, due to interest from others.

No, because it failed that test, so went back to the drawing board, to change the layup of the carbon and its now back with the ISO testers, to see how it gets on. Fingers crossed!


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## cloudbuster (Dec 14, 2011)

are there more option to install the gearbox on bike besides this two:
https://zerodebikes.com/products-list/pinion-welding-bridge

https://framebuildersupply.com/coll...ng-cabinet-for-pinion-internal-gearing-system


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## Chasmeifyoucan (Apr 18, 2013)

ive been on a pinion for the last year and love it. dont plan on ever going back to a derailleur. currently working on a custom enduro frame to replace my taniwha that will also have a pinion. heres some cranks i just machined for the pinion.


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## B. Rock (Mar 9, 2011)

So that looks pretty fantastic. Custom frame? Or how'd you meld the gearbox into carbon? Not sure the last time I saw a Duc on a bike.


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## Chasmeifyoucan (Apr 18, 2013)

Thanks man. This frame is a taniwha but in working on a new frame to replace it. The forks are dorados that I coated and machined custom crowns for. Pic is a 3d model of frame in working on.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## B. Rock (Mar 9, 2011)

Ah gotcha. I didn't realize they made a taniwha in that color, hence the confusion. Impressive custom work though...building my own bike has been a long term goal but I always figured it would a steel hardtail, not a gearbox FS bike.


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## Chasmeifyoucan (Apr 18, 2013)

It's not the original color I repainted it over winter. I've been working on the frame for quite some time. Hopefully have it up and running in before winter









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Timbo (Jan 8, 2004)

Chasmeifyoucan said:


> Thanks man. This frame is a taniwha but in working on a new frame to replace it. The forks are dorados that I coated and machined custom crowns for. Pic is a 3d model of frame in working on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, did you manage to get CAD models of the gearbox from somewhere, or have you modelled it yourself? Either way, I'd be interested if you were willing to share it?


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## Rubberduckxi (Sep 10, 2015)

I dont know if it corresponds to the reality, but at Paragon Machine Works have the Titanium Pinion Shell, and if you download the 3D the shell has a gear attached....

I am also designing my own hardtail Fatbike Pinion Feame


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

Anyone else running belt drive have a hard time keeping chainring bolts in? I barely have 250 miles on the bike. Ride before last I lost 3 of the 4 chainring bolts. Replaced them and used red loctite this time. Next ride out (today), lost 3 of 4 again. 

I'm running a 39 tooth gates cdx cog matted to the pinon spider that works for the C.12 and fatbikes. I did notice neither the spider nor the cog seem to have machined slots to make sure they line up with each other like I've seen with traditional drive trains, and the lack of such makes me think that with traditional chainring bolts, I'm not getting enough thread engagement to stay put.


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

After a fair bit of googling, I went out and took my digital calipers to both the front gates cog and the pinion spider. Total combined thickness was right at 8mm. So, chain ring bolts intended for single chain ring applications at 5mm in length aren't likely to cut it based on my experience. How I managed to get 200 plus miles on the first set of bolts is beyond me. 

I now have several sets of 8mm long chain ring bolts as I have two gates CDX bikes (the other is rohloff with>2,500 miles on 5mm bolts) and one of my fatbike wheelsets uses a spider as well for the rear cog.


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## dirtdawg21892 (Jul 20, 2009)

mrfixie said:


> Hi guys, I initially posted my project Carver O'Beast on page 3 (post #202) and I now have over 8,800 trouble free miles on the bike. I did the first oil change in October 2018 (at 7,200 miles) and was shocked to get only a few drops of old oil out! I searched for comments on this and found that this was fairly common..
> 
> Fast forward to today, and I am noticing oil leaking from the input/output shaft (drive side, behind the spider) and I figure there must be likely two seals there for the inner and outer journals. Anyone else seen leaking like this?
> 
> I'm hoping that I can get replacement seals if that's what is needed.. Not keen to ship my P 1.18 back to Germany to get it worked on, I use this bike every day..


Hey Fixie, Did you ever get your leak figured out? I just picked up a bike with a pinion and noticed a light sheen of oil on the shell behind the sprocket. I'll probably just do a fluid flush just for peace of mind to make sure the level is right.

Which brings me to another question... where are 'yall getting oil from? I'm in the US and haven't been able to find anything for less than like $26 before $13 worth of shipping. that's insane for 60ml of fluid.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

dirtdawg21892 said:


> Hey Fixie, Did you ever get your leak figured out? I just picked up a bike with a pinion and noticed a light sheen of oil on the shell behind the sprocket. I'll probably just do a fluid flush just for peace of mind to make sure the level is right.
> 
> Which brings me to another question... where are 'yall getting oil from? I'm in the US and haven't been able to find anything for less than like $26 before $13 worth of shipping. that's insane for 60ml of fluid.


Sounds like your seal is gone on the crank, I've had this happen. It was a warranty repair. Didn't take too long to get it sorted with my point of purchase.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## dirtdawg21892 (Jul 20, 2009)

jeremy_2640 said:


> Sounds like your seal is gone on the crank, I've had this happen. It was a warranty repair. Didn't take too long to get it sorted with my point of purchase.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Thanks. How quick was the turnaround? Paying to ship it to and from Germany sounds like a bit of a hassle, but I suppose I signed up for that when I purchased the bike.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## dirtdawg21892 (Jul 20, 2009)

Hey all, I've been lurking for a long time and have wanted a gearbox for a while. I finally took the plunge and picked up a bike from a local builder. He built it for a 500 mile bikepacking trip in the snow, but I've found it to be super versatile as a beefy hardtail. Its got clearance for + tires or 29". Weight is less than I expected. I haven't had a chance to put it on a scale, but I would put it around 33lbs with the rigid fork and 29er wheelset.









Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

dirtdawg21892 said:


> Thanks. How quick was the turnaround? Paying to ship it to and from Germany sounds like a bit of a hassle, but I suppose I signed up for that when I purchased the bike.
> 
> Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


Where are you located? There should be someone local that is trained/authorised by pinion to rebuild. For Australia/NZ zerode can do it. The good thing is you can time it to return when convenient. Running dry for a short period should be fine and you can top up with oil as it leaks out. I waited a couple of months until mine was repaired.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## dirtdawg21892 (Jul 20, 2009)

I'm in the US. Nashua New Hampshire


Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Has anyone gone from the DS1 to the the DS2 shifter? How did they compare?


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

Timbo said:


> Hey, did you manage to get CAD models of the gearbox from somewhere, or have you modelled it yourself? Either way, I'd be interested if you were willing to share it?


Pinion supply them from their website, or I have copies here which you can download:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pucopdygjsztdqe/AABBPDF462SU2mboUfbdmuLHa?dl=0

All the best,
Dan Chambers


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

crank1979 said:


> Has anyone gone from the DS1 to the the DS2 shifter? How did they compare?


I switched. Function wise, about the same. But routing of the cables is WAY cleaner and friendlier to using bar mitts or poggies.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

sam-eye-am said:


> I switched. Function wise, about the same. But routing of the cables is WAY cleaner and friendlier to using bar mitts or poggies.


So the new shifter doesn't let you change to an easier gear under load? Still the same as the original shifter?


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## Zaf (Mar 1, 2012)

crank1979 said:


> So the new shifter doesn't let you change to an easier gear under load? Still the same as the original shifter?


That's correct. Shifting is indexed at the box in any case, a shifter wont change that functionality.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Zaf said:


> That's correct. Shifting is indexed at the box in any case, a shifter wont change that functionality.


I thought I read somewhere that the change to an easier gear was limited by the shifter, and was hoping the new version would fix that. I'll stick with what I've got then.


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

Anyone need a Pinion Gearbox chainring lockring tool? They retail for $38, I'll send you mine for $20? I only used it twice!


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## wkkie (Mar 17, 2012)

All you people that have custom frames, where did you purchase your gearboxes from?


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

Direct from Pinion for the boxes themselves, and their bridges in forged steel and cast 6061 and 7005 aluminium.

There are a few other outlets for the bridges if you don't like Pinion's own models, or need titanium...Paragon Machine Works and Bike Fab for a start.

All the best, 
Dan Chambers


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## wkkie (Mar 17, 2012)

Thanks Dan. I'm all good for the bridges, just need the box itself and the rest of the drive train and shifter.


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

They do come up on eBay and such occasionally, and the small/medium sized guys might sell on parts.

I'm not sure of Pinion's stance/policy on re-selling.

All the best, Dan


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## sox (Apr 21, 2005)

*latest version of my taniwha...*

new fork and the trigger still works awesome


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## Ders316 (Sep 28, 2017)

sox said:


> new fork and the trigger still works awesome


Where did you get that trigger shifter? The I am not a fan of the Cinq ones because of my dropper post, but having both shifters on the same side would be ideal!

Thanks!


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## sox (Apr 21, 2005)

The shifter is designd and produced by myself. 
Just one made for me 
And in constrast to the cinq shifter I have a gear indicator and the shifter works both with the p-line and c-line. Love it so much.


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## Cagapraos (Feb 20, 2010)

Are you considering to make another one for my p-line? (it is a joke; i have asked you two times previous).
It looks great!, congratulations.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

*Pinion Tensioner Upgrade V2*

*Pinion Tensioner Upgrade V2*

*What?*
An improvement on the V1 design by added relative motion to the bushing. I have been testing this updated design for 12months now and it offers an excellent improvement to the original and V1 design. Less noise, low wearing and smoother tensioner action!
*
Why?*
The original design was stainless on stainless sliding - not good. The Version 1 upgrade used an igus bush which could get gunked up and not rotate relative to the bushing causing uneven wear and eventually wearing through one spot on the bush.

*How?*
Using a new custom turned acetal bushing which is backwards compatible with the hard anodised aluminium shaft from V1 (provided it's not damaged).

If you previously purchased a V1 tensioner upgrade and your aluminium shaft is in good condition you can purchase the acetal part alone.





















PM me for details on cost and shipping&#8230;


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## Ders316 (Sep 28, 2017)

Has anyone found jockey wheels that are stronger than the stock plastic ones?


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

jeremy_2640 said:


> *Pinion Tensioner Upgrade V2*


The bigger problem for me is the bolt with all those holes in it gets bashed by rocks and the thin shoulder with the holes breaks. Very annoying that I couldn't buy the bolt separately, I had to buy the whole tensioner.

The new tensioner doesn't have as many holes and appears a bit thicker. So far so good, but I'll be drilling a new hole when this one breaks and maybe making a new bolt from steel instead of aluminium after that.


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## jeremy_2640 (Jun 5, 2008)

crank1979 said:


> The bigger problem for me is the bolt with all those holes in it gets bashed by rocks and the thin shoulder with the holes breaks. Very annoying that I couldn't buy the bolt separately, I had to buy the whole tensioner.
> 
> The new tensioner doesn't have as many holes and appears a bit thicker. So far so good, but I'll be drilling a new hole when this one breaks and maybe making a new bolt from steel instead of aluminium after that.


Interesting was it from rocks coming through on the tires or impact? ,That torsion spring mounting shaft is unused (I had it as a spare) I have used the zerode ones since the beginning which are thicker and only have a couple of holes. if you do break the new one I'd say you'd have some other issues as well! 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

jeremy_2640 said:


> Interesting was it from rocks coming through on the tires or impact? ,That torsion spring mounting shaft is unused (I had it as a spare) I have used the zerode ones since the beginning which are thicker and only have a couple of holes. if you do break the new one I'd say you'd have some other issues as well!


The new one I have is the KS1.2

This is a P1.18 equipped Nicolai Helius AC Pinion, 26" wheels. It's not exactly new and came with a KS1.2 tensioner but the bolt shown. Most rides I do on it are on loose, sandstone based trails. My other option is to buy a dropout that I can mount a derailleur to and run a Rohloff tensioner or similar.

20200606_074949


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## auhouhz88 (Jul 15, 2020)

Hi guys,

Does anyone know why does pinion gearbox needs to have a freehub? I do not see a need to freewheel the output shaft. Is there a possibility to open up the gearbox and weld it so that it doesnt freewheel? I have a C1.12 paired with I9 hydra at the rear. Really defeats the purpose of a high engagement hub.


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## Kyle_Kinne (Aug 10, 2020)

*Pinion Cranks*

Hey Guys,

I am looking to build some custom cranks for my pinion and was wondering if anyone had a CAD model of the weird splined shaft the cranks go on? Would help me out a lot if you could share.


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

Remember those carbon cranks I was talking about 18ish months ago? bet you all thought they had fallen into the abyss? Nope...

Untitled by tom.howard.562, on Flickr


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## TallPaul_S (May 27, 2020)

I test rode a Sonder Signal Ti Pinion a couple of days back, in one of the wettest rides I've done for ages. In short... I'm sold!!! 

Liked the ability to change gears by grabbing a handful at the bottom of a climb, didn't mind the split second pause in pedalling to change into an easier gear, and loved the completely silence and smooth running of the thing even in atrocious conditions! It was a beast at climbing, it just seemed to winch up stuff I'd failed to make it up on my 150mm FS bike in the dry.

Literally the only downside I can think of is the low engagement points in the gearbox, but honestly that would only be an issue for me once or twice a year. I liked the grip shift too, wouldn't want to change to a different shifter.

I'm gonna be looking at the Nordest Lacrau 2 Ti with the Gates Belt drive kit, to build up with a 160mm fork for proper UK winter proof riding.


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## henners_ (Oct 15, 2020)

*Threaded Holes on P Line*

Wow! The Sonder looks good - love the chain! I also looked at the Nordest and 11Ants Panther - there are some beautiful designs about.

Can anyone tell me what the two threaded holes are one the lower drive side of the P line gearbox are?

Are they for a bash guard? Are they a standard fit like ISCG 03?










Thanks


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## henners_ (Oct 15, 2020)

*Pinion freewheel*



auhouhz88 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Does anyone know why does pinion gearbox needs to have a freehub? I do not see a need to freewheel the output shaft. Is there a possibility to open up the gearbox and weld it so that it doesnt freewheel? I have a C1.12 paired with I9 hydra at the rear. Really defeats the purpose of a high engagement hub.


I think this was mentioned on the Pinion Instagram live Q&A sessions they've been running. Worth checking out if you haven't watched these.


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## TallPaul_S (May 27, 2020)

Those mounts are used for bash guard/chain tensioners by some bikes, doubt if they're ISCG standard though.

My Nordest Lacrau 2 Ti frame with the Gates Belt drive kit has been ordered, now for the 12 week wait... :lol:


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## henners_ (Oct 15, 2020)

TallPaul_S said:


> Those mounts are used for bash guard/chain tensioners by some bikes, doubt if they're ISCG standard though.
> 
> My Nordest Lacrau 2 Ti frame with the Gates Belt drive kit has been ordered, now for the 12 week wait... :lol:


Beautiful frame. Which fork are you going for? I went for the Olsen frame and the Motion fork. 12 weeks? That's nothing - i ordered mine at the start of June, still waiting.....

Found the specs for ISCG and ISCG05 and measured my gearbox: you're right, it's not compatible and i can't find anyone selling a bash guard that fits these pinion holes.


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

"Can anyone tell me what the two threaded holes are one the lower drive side of the P line gearbox are?
Are they for a bash guard? Are they a standard fit like ISCG 03?"

Officially, they are for the Pinion chain tensioner, if you have a suspension frame or no adjustable dropouts. 

The Pinion design manual specifically states that they are not for use with a bashguard and that the gearbox is not designed to be load bearing...however, IMO the gearbox (particularly the P-line) is built sturdier than my frames, and there are a few guards around, most notably from Scar Cycles..I have a few spare, if he can't supply.

All the best,
Dan Chambers


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## henners_ (Oct 15, 2020)

Danson67 said:


> "Can anyone tell me what the two threaded holes are one the lower drive side of the P line gearbox are?
> Are they for a bash guard? Are they a standard fit like ISCG 03?"
> 
> Officially, they are for the Pinion chain tension, if you have a suspension frame or no adjustable dropouts.
> ...


Thanks Dan, that makes sense now you say.


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## TallPaul_S (May 27, 2020)

henners_ said:


> Beautiful frame. Which fork are you going for? I went for the Olsen frame and the Motion fork. 12 weeks? That's nothing - i ordered mine at the start of June, still waiting.....
> 
> Found the specs for ISCG and ISCG05 and measured my gearbox: you're right, it's not compatible and i can't find anyone selling a bash guard that fits these pinion holes.


I'll be using the Fox 36 Grip2 factory from my 2019 Jeffsy CF Pro Race, for the simple fact that it fits a large bolt on RRP proguard - I can't stand zip tied mudguards and as this is going to be an 'ultimate UK winter hardtail build', a big front guard is a must. It's set at 150mm at the moment, the Lacrau is designed for 160mm but will take 140-170mm forks, I'll see what it's like at 150mm but may end up getting a 160mm shaft with a luftkappe.

Then the Jeffsy will be getting treated to some Mezzer Pro's, at 160mm :thumbsup:


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## henners_ (Oct 15, 2020)

TallPaul_S said:


> I'll be using the Fox 36 Grip2 factory from my 2019 Jeffsy CF Pro Race, for the simple fact that it fits a large bolt on RRP proguard - I can't stand zip tied mudguards and as this is going to be an 'ultimate UK winter hardtail build', a big front guard is a must. It's set at 150mm at the moment, the Lacrau is designed for 160mm but will take 140-170mm forks, I'll see what it's like at 150mm but may end up getting a 160mm shaft with a luftkappe.
> 
> Then the Jeffsy will be getting treated to some Mezzer Pro's, at 160mm :thumbsup:


Excellent!!


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## Ders316 (Sep 28, 2017)

Danson67 said:


> "
> The Pinion design manual specifically states that they are not for use with a bashguard and that the gearbox is not designed to be load bearing...however, IMO the gearbox (particularly the P-line) is built sturdier than my frames, and there are a few guards around, most notably from Scar Cycles..I have a few spare, if he can't supply.


My Zerode Katipo uses it as a bashguard. No issues so far with the bash guard Zerode sells with the bike. Has saved the chainring many times!


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## Danson67 (Jul 20, 2018)

Yes, I use the Scar ones on a couple of bikes, too. Both P-line boxes.

I suppose it's just Pinion being cautious, and not wanting to support warranty on something that is pretty unpredictable that they have no control of, such and direct impacts.

All the best, Dan.


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## Tom Howard (Jan 8, 2019)

For those interested in the carbon cranks, they're now available to order...

https://carbonwasp.com/shop/1afxtcezq1ixv2qsxvoo160y9hhi5d


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## Dan Almberg (Dec 25, 2020)

Hi i just built me a full suss pinion bike but the original chain tentioner hits the wheel so i want to put one in the back and i dont want to get another one that dosent fit. So do you know of a good one that will work with a 24 cog??
Thanks Dan


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## Dan Almberg (Dec 25, 2020)

So did some changes to it as the plan from start was to run beltdrive 32 ring but whent with chain 24 ring so much more pedal kickbak. Now with the idler its at 100%.
But still need a good tentioner that takes 24 at the rear!!


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## TallPaul_S (May 27, 2020)

Nearly completed my hardtail build, just waiting on brakes to complete it!



Do the boxes change much in noise/character once bedded in a bit? I've not actually ridden the bike yet (no brakes!) but when pedalling on a stand there the odd vibration etc coming from the box, guessing this will settle down once everything starts being used.


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## TallPaul_S (May 27, 2020)

Update, had a first quick ride on the bike to take some pictures, and there's a definite 'buxx' from the gearbox when up to speed, and pedalling. It manifests itself as a buzzing sound at around 10-15mph or above, not in any particular gear. When stropped, with no pressure on the cranks, tapping the chain/seatstays will give a slight rattle, but nothing is loose (believe me, I've checked everything), and with some pressure on the pedals with the front brake on, the rattle goes away. It's 100% coming from the gearbox, I've checked everything else on the bike.

Is this normal? The bike is 100% quiet otherwise, and this buzz is a bit off putting! Also, when pedalling after freewheeling for a bit, there's a hard 'clang' when the ratchets inside the box engage.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

TallPaul_S said:


> Update, had a first quick ride on the bike to take some pictures, and there's a definite 'buxx' from the gearbox when up to speed, and pedalling. It manifests itself as a buzzing sound at around 10-15mph or above, not in any particular gear. When stropped, with no pressure on the cranks, tapping the chain/seatstays will give a slight rattle, but nothing is loose (believe me, I've checked everything), and with some pressure on the pedals with the front brake on, the rattle goes away. It's 100% coming from the gearbox, I've checked everything else on the bike.
> 
> Is this normal? The bike is 100% quiet otherwise, and this buzz is a bit off putting! Also, when pedalling after freewheeling for a bit, there's a hard 'clang' when the ratchets inside the box engage.


It might be worth changing the oil now rather than waiting, but there will be a bit of a buzz with the gears meshing. Mine is chain drive, not belt, but could it be the cassette spacers used?

I have the clunk when I start pedalling and I'm pretty sure I've read about it elsewhere. Unless you have a fixed rear hub there are two freewheels engaging so there will be a little backlash.


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## TallPaul_S (May 27, 2020)

crank1979 said:


> It might be worth changing the oil now rather than waiting, but there will be a bit of a buzz with the gears meshing. Mine is chain drive, not belt, but could it be the cassette spacers used?
> 
> I have the clunk when I start pedalling and I'm pretty sure I've read about it elsewhere. Unless you have a fixed rear hub there are two freewheels engaging so there will be a little backlash.


deffo not the cassette spacers, checked them too. Maybe it is just the buzz from the gears resonating through the frame. Will ride it more and monitor, it might just need some bedding in time.

Here's some pics too.


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## TallPaul_S (May 27, 2020)

Worked out what the noise is. It happens over a certain speed, pedalling or not (couldn't hear it before with the freewheel noise) and is worse on tarmac... the tyres, once up to a certain speed, produce just the right frequency to rattle the 2 internal shift cables in the frame! 🤣😟 There's just enough room for them to move a few mm and that's enough to produce a loud buzz which reverberates through the frame.

I'll find a way of stopping them from being able to move and that should sort it!.


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## dirtdawg21892 (Jul 20, 2009)

TallPaul_S said:


> Nearly completed my hardtail build, just waiting on brakes to complete it!
> 
> 
> 
> Do the boxes change much in noise/character once bedded in a bit? I've not actually ridden the bike yet (no brakes!) but when pedalling on a stand there the odd vibration etc coming from the box, guessing this will settle down once everything starts being used.


That thing is freaking GORGEOUS! 
As for the buzzing, mine has a subtle sound as the gears meshing can be felt through the pedals under load, but it's never been an issue. I've serviced it and replaced the oil and didn't find any metal shavings or anything inside, so I'm guessing that's just how they are. I've also got a chain not a belt, so I expect your drivetrain is even smoother than mine, which would make the gearbox itself that much more noticeable.


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## henners_ (Oct 15, 2020)

Had my p.12 MTB for 6 months now, really enjoy it.

Just taken delivery of my Nørdest with c1.12 box for touring.

The box is skipping in gear under load in gears 1 - 6 under reasonable load.

Anyone had this? My p.12 will skip once in a while and literally one jump/bang and it's in gear (as per the manual)






Any advice welcome as I'm supposed to be heading to the Outer Hebrides on Friday night.

At this rate I'll have to swap the box with my MTB.

Thanks


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## Dan Almberg (Dec 25, 2020)

Have you tested another rear wheel just to so so it's not the hub?
A pic of mine from yesterday🤘


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## Timbo (Jan 8, 2004)

henners_ said:


> Had my p.12 MTB for 6 months now, really enjoy it.
> 
> Just taken delivery of my Nørdest with c1.12 box for touring.
> 
> ...


Are you sure it's the gearbox? I had something similar recently and after ruling out my rear hub I had convinced myself the gearbox was skipping. I even went to the bother of doing an oil change. Long story short, I had changed the chain and the sprockets were sufficiently worn that the chain was skipping. It's surprisingly difficult to identify, filming it with my phone set to 120fps confirmed it. If it's not the hub, maybe your belt is slipping or isn't tensioned sufficiently?


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## henners_ (Oct 15, 2020)

Timbo said:


> Are you sure it's the gearbox? I had something similar recently and after ruling out my rear hub I had convinced myself the gearbox was skipping. I even went to the bother of doing an oil change. Long story short, I had changed the chain and the sprockets were sufficiently worn that the chain was skipping. It's surprisingly difficult to identify, filming it with my phone set to 120fps confirmed it. If it's not the hub, maybe your belt is slipping or isn't tensioned sufficiently?


I'm sure. Definitely.


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## henners_ (Oct 15, 2020)

Dan Almberg said:


> Have you tested another rear wheel just to so so it's not the hub?
> A pic of mine from yesterday🤘
> View attachment 1934197


Using onyx hub so that rules the hub out.


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## Timbo (Jan 8, 2004)

henners_ said:


> I'm sure. Definitely.


Better return it then, besides an oil change there isn't anything you can adjust. If you have another Pinion on your MTB though, I'm surprised you haven't already switched it over, to isolate the problem if nothing else. You need a special tool to swap the spider over if that's something you need to do, but otherwise it's a very straightforward job. A decent pin spanner might be a substitute for the spider tool if you don't have it.


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## auhouhz88 (Jul 15, 2020)

henners_ said:


> Had my p.12 MTB for 6 months now, really enjoy it.
> 
> Just taken delivery of my Nørdest with c1.12 box for touring.
> 
> ...


I believe what you are experiencing is stated in the C line manual page 11.










it's more like a loud clank than just a jolt.


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## Dan Almberg (Dec 25, 2020)

So my original pinion cog was **** after500 km might been a problem with the chain tensioner or not. But I got a stronger spring that my mate made and adjusted it a bit closer. Then I modified a cassette. Worked good🌞
Also a question how do you not lose the cover for the selector box any tips I hate that plastic sh!t.


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## Norts60 (Mar 6, 2020)

For people who also run a belt drive with their pinion this is a good lesson. Ryan Van Duzer who broke a belt on the GDMBR and the reasons why it may have broken


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## Dan Almberg (Dec 25, 2020)

Got me a new chain tensioner hope it will work good😊


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## Norts60 (Mar 6, 2020)

My Viral Derive which arrived yesterday(after waiting 10months for it to be built and sent to Tassie). Went for my first ride with a Pinion today. Loved being able to crest a hill and straight away go from 1st to 12th. It was a wet muddy ride , come home , hose of the mud and it's ready to head out again.
Need a bit of practice changing gear though.
Roger


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## Norts60 (Mar 6, 2020)

I was riding with no problems today , I fell into a rather large muddle puddle. When I go the bike/me me out I began to ride and the grip shift was very stiff and then jammed in 4th gear. 
When I got home I took the cover of the grip shift to see if there was mud/debris - nice and clean. Took the cover of the gear box end , nice and clean. I have release all the cable brackets on the frame in case I had somehow jammed a cable - no better.
I have been able to change gear again but very tight, ie takes alot of effort. 
Not sure what I can do, I have contacted Pinion but does the collective brains trust have any ideas?
Roger


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

Norts60 said:


> I was riding with no problems today , I fell into a rather large muddle puddle. When I go the bike/me me out I began to ride and the grip shift was very stiff and then jammed in 4th gear.
> When I got home I took the cover of the grip shift to see if there was mud/debris - nice and clean. Took the cover of the gear box end , nice and clean. I have release all the cable brackets on the frame in case I had somehow jammed a cable - no better.
> I have been able to change gear again but very tight, ie takes alot of effort.
> Not sure what I can do, I have contacted Pinion but does the collective brains trust have any ideas?
> Roger


Is it hitting the correct gears? I wonder if the plastic shift mechanism in the gearbox jumped or has stripped? The original version was aluminium. I just replaced my original single cable mechanism and shifter with the new two cable mech and new shifter.


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## field_c (Jul 29, 2005)

*Forged vs CNC Pinion Crankset*

Hi Everyone

I've had my Zerode Katipo for a few months now. I've got the Pinion forged crankset, and was wondering if the CNC version would provide any improvement in stiffness under force at the pedals as my forged crankset tends to creak intermittently, especially when climbing. Would the tighter tolerance with fit with the CNC cranks maybe help with this at the crank/spindle interface?

Thanks
Dr Chris


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

field_c said:


> *Forged vs CNC Pinion Crankset*
> 
> Hi Everyone
> 
> ...


I have the CNC version because that's what was available at the time. I'd prefer a forged crank for strength. Aren't all the interfaces (bb spindle, pedal threads) machined after forging anyway?


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## BareNecessities (Nov 21, 2012)

I've owned this custom Pinion bike from Isen Frameworks for about a year now and have just done its first oil change. Very happy with the low maintenance, and having previously owned a bike with a Rohloff hub, I do prefer having the gearbox weight centered in the bike when riding offroad.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Got my first Pinion bike a few weeks ago, a Nicolai Argon, 27+, built it up using parts from a full suspension bike it replaced 😮

So far I absolutely love this bike! Not only did Nicolai nail the geo, the Pinion C12 is amazing!!

I’m pretty comfortable shifting the Pinion, though there are still times when I mess up, overall I’m really satisfied with how it pedals … though I’d take a higher engagement.

The Argon is an aggressive frame design, 62 deg HTA with a 160mm travel fork. It’s Nicolai’s “long, low, slack “ design, I’m running 160mm cranks and the shortest belt possible (CS 445mm),

I’m 6’ tall, bought a medium frame, running big riser bars, 30mm spaces under the stem, 50mm stem, 210mm dropper with ~20mm showing, seat centered, and it fits perfectly 👍

It took a few months got the frame to be readied for shipping, not packed as well as I’d expected; head tube got dinged, communication was challenging, but I saved 1/3 off the cost of buying it from a vendor in the states.

Here she is in all her glory:


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## mike_sud (4 mo ago)

laksboy said:


> Anyone need a Pinion Gearbox chainring lockring tool? They retail for $38, I'll send you mine for $20? I only used it twice!


I know it's been years but...Do you still have this tool? If so, I will buy it


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## JE92024 (2 mo ago)

field_c said:


> *Forged vs CNC Pinion Crankset*
> 
> Hi Everyone
> 
> ...


I ride a tout terrain via veneto express with p1.12 that I picked up barely used. At about 1500 miles the forged crankset started creaking like crazy under load. No amount of reassembly with grease, anti-seize, parafilm or variations of torque on binder bolts would silence. I contacted Pinion rep and he offered me 180mm cnc’d crank arms for $75 with agreement to ship forged crankset back for failure inspection. Immediate silence with CNC’d crank arms and still silent after ~1k miles.


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## JE92024 (2 mo ago)

JE92024 said:


> I ride a tout terrain via veneto express with p1.12 that I picked up barely used. At about 1500 miles the forged crankset started creaking like crazy under load. No amount of reassembly with grease, anti-seize, parafilm or variations of torque on binder bolts would silence. I contacted Pinion rep and he offered me 180mm cnc’d crank arms for $75 with agreement to ship forged crankset back for failure inspection. Immediate silence with CNC’d crank arms and still silent after ~1k miles.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Just built this up, waiting on the dropper post and shock:


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## dudebro (May 28, 2021)

I just bought my first Pinion bike, second hand Nicolai ION G16 GPI. The only issue is a grip shift related one. It has the older DS1 shifter and it tends to move a little if I use too much force when shifting. And because the clamping bolts are so tiny, I fear I will ruin them if I tighten them any more. Does the DS2 shifter have a better clamping mechanism?

And the second issue which is the more annoying one. I like to set my brake levers to almost touch the grips when the levers are fully pulled. Because of the grip shifter, I cannot do this anymore, the lever gets in contact with the shifter too early. Would it help with this problem, if the shifter was changed from DS1 to DS2?

Obviously the best solution would be some kind of trigger shifter, but they seem not to exist. I havent found th Cinq shifter to be sold anywhere and I even emailed Instinctiv but they do not sell their shifter if I don't have their bike.

I don't mind the twist shifter itself. But the poor clamping friction and the bulky design perventing me from using the desired brake lever reach are the issues that drive me to seek other options.

I was even thinking that maybe it would be possible to modify two dropper levers to be used as a shifter system















These levers are sold for ~15 € piece and they seem like a good option for modifying. They have actual bearing and the lever can be taken apart. If I get two, I might be able to mimic Cinq solution by modifying the other sifter and installing it to right side. Or maybe even use one clamp to clamp both shifters to the same side. The biggest issue with this will probably be the cable pull though. But there is no way of knowing the pull of that aliexpress lever without buying it first.


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## JE92024 (2 mo ago)

dudebro said:


> I just bought my first Pinion bike, second hand Nicolai ION G16 GPI. The only issue is a grip shift related one. It has the older DS1 shifter and it tends to move a little if I use too much force when shifting. And because the clamping bolts are so tiny, I fear I will ruin them if I tighten them any more. Does the DS2 shifter have a better clamping mechanism?
> 
> And the second issue which is the more annoying one. I like to set my brake levers to almost touch the grips when the levers are fully pulled. Because of the grip shifter, I cannot do this anymore, the lever gets in contact with the shifter too early. Would it help with this problem, if the shifter was changed from DS1 to DS2?
> 
> ...





dudebro said:


> I just bought my first Pinion bike, second hand Nicolai ION G16 GPI. The only issue is a grip shift related one. It has the older DS1 shifter and it tends to move a little if I use too much force when shifting. And because the clamping bolts are so tiny, I fear I will ruin them if I tighten them any more. Does the DS2 shifter have a better clamping mechanism?
> 
> And the second issue which is the more annoying one. I like to set my brake levers to almost touch the grips when the levers are fully pulled. Because of the grip shifter, I cannot do this anymore, the lever gets in contact with the shifter too early. Would it help with this problem, if the shifter was changed from DS1 to DS2?
> 
> ...


I never had slipping shifter problem with DS1 but I did have a bit of slipping with DS2 until I tightened the set screw more (it’s a delicate balance as it seems like stripping that tiny screw would be easy). I don’t think clamping has improved. The DS2 has better cable routing (90 degree bend), a built in allen key tool, and redundant cable crimp nut in shifter body. I don’t think DS2 will solve brake lever issue.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Try running the shifter inboard further, play with shifter to brake clearance, I also like my brakes to run in closer to the bars and I’ve adjusted to it.

Other option is that expensive trigger shifter from Instinctiv; at some point you’ll be able to buy one.

Since you just got it, it’d be worthwhile riding it for a while, you’ll probably adjust to the shifter.


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