# What issues are caused by having a bike that's too small?



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I'm 6'4.5" and I'm going to buy a new bike this year. My current/first mtb is probably too small (460mm reach). Before that I rode bmx so every mtb I tried felt huge. I'm not even sure exactly how to tell if a bike is too small. I have begun to notice a few issues I suspect are due to sizing. I have the saddle slid all the way back, slightly past the max setting so that's an obvious issue. I've noticed I have trouble while climbing and cornering getting both low and forward. It feels like in corners when I get low my hips are too far back to properly weight the front. To climb while standing I either end up standing upright and way forward over the bars or squatted and hunched down.

What performance or comfort issues indicate that a bike is too small? I've only ever ridden small bikes so I'm concerned my sense of what 'feels right' is off.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

It sounds like you figured out what too small means! All those things you described are issues. It makes the bike harder to handle, less stable, easier to crash, and just generally unstable.

What size bike are you on? You need at least an XL. Probably an XXL for shorter brands. Something over 500mm of reach.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I'm on an XL (Giant Fathom 27.5). I'm thinking I'll need at least an inch (25mm) longer reach.


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## manpurse (Feb 6, 2011)

I’m your same height and the big reason I went with an Intense Spider was the 492mm reach on the XL. When I was shopping new bikes I also had Santa Cruz tell me that I should definitely be on their XXL size frame.


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

I believe the XL Fathom comes with a 70mm stem, you could try a 90mm, I wouldn't go longer than that, steering becomes what I call floppy. I think the shorter the stem the better the steering feels. Or you could try an offset seat post to move the seat back a little.


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

Trying to increase your actual reach by using offset seat posts and sliding the saddle back can only be effective for a certain range. It moves your body weight into a location that wasn't intended by the designer's geometry, and it puts you too far behind the pedals. Then you have to move around more to properly load the tires for climbing and turning. That is no easy task when you are already too far back and have to get your long body forward somehow. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "squatted down", but if you are attempting steep climbs while seated it is typical to almost "kiss the stem" at the handlebars. If you are standing, the "way forward" sensation is typical of being seated too far back to begin with. You need to move way up to get fully over the pedals. For some, it works anyway. Others need a properly sized bike. 

I think you should try to ride as many bikes as you can. Rent them, borrow them, ask to swap with a buddy on the trail for a few. This is also a good reason to work with a good LBS. If they have various sizes in stock you can try them for fit even if you can't go on a good ride. Have them help with different stem lengths and seat adjustments. You may decide to live with what you have, but at least you can experience what other's think is the proper fit.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

armii said:


> I believe the XL Fathom comes with a 70mm stem, you could try a 90mm, I wouldn't go longer than that, steering becomes what I call floppy. I think the shorter the stem the better the steering feels. Or you could try an offset seat post to move the seat back a little.


Mine (2017) actually came with a 110mm stem. I have 787mm bars and a 50mm stem right now but I'm going to put a 60mm stem I have back on.

Whatever bike I end up with I want to be able to run a 50mm stem.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

How about a XL frame with 29 wheels?


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

adaycj said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "squatted down", but if you are attempting steep climbs while seated it is typical to almost "kiss the stem" at the handlebars. If you are standing, the "way forward" sensation is typical of being seated too far back to begin with. You need to move way up to get fully over the pedals. For some, it works anyway. Others need a properly sized bike.


I'm talking about pedaling standing up on steep technical climbs. I can't seem to get my chest to the bars. I can ride forward and tall with the bars in my lap or low with my hips and weight back. I can't seem to get both low and forward. I feel a bit folded over like riding a bmx bike.

I'm going to buy a new bike because I want a FS, not because my current one is too small but I'm wondering what I should look for besides comfort to find something that fits.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm an eighth of an inch shy of 6'5". I ride an XL 907 fatbike, an XL Surly Krampus and I recently retired an XL Specialized Stumpjumper fs 29er. 
When I originally built the fat bike, I had a 100mm stem and ODI riser bars. I ended up with Jones H Bars and a 90mm stem on that bike. Jones bars and an 80 mm stem on the Krampus because the top tube feels longer. I guess I could just measure it and see. 
Both bikes feel awesome though, so why mess with success.
You should try and ride some proper XL bikes. Your feel for the trail will improve.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

j102 said:


> How about a XL frame with 29 wheels?


I plan to demo some 29ers if I can.


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> I'm talking about pedaling standing up on steep technical climbs. I can't seem to get my chest to the bars. I can ride forward and tall with the bars in my lap or low with my hips and weight back. I can't seem to get both low and forward. I feel a bit folded over like riding a bmx bike.
> 
> I'm going to buy a new bike because I want a FS, not because my current one is too small but I'm wondering what I should look for besides comfort to find something that fits.


Once your arms are well past 90 degrees elbows out, there is nothing you can do. You either move the bars forward, or you hang over them more.

I hope you find a bike you like with a proper fit.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

Don't put a layback seatpost on your current bike - that's just making a bad thing worse.
Learn to climb seated more. That traction comes from weight over both wheels but ass down keeps the pedaling smoother and the rear wheel planted down.
A mtb is not a bmx. You're not tailwhipping it around. Accept it feels different and get used to the differences. 
Oh - and try to ride as many bikes as possible - you're not even in the tall section in this forum so there's more chance of you getting test rides!


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

TooTallUK said:


> Don't put a layback seatpost on your current bike - that's just making a bad thing worse.
> Learn to climb seated more. That traction comes from weight over both wheels but ass down keeps the pedaling smoother and the rear wheel planted down.


I already feel too far over the rear so I wouldn't do a lay back seatpost. That's part of my issue climbing seated. I have demoed a Scott Spark that had a slightly longer reach and chainstays. I felt like I could stay seated on it pedal up steep hills so much easier.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

An XL honzo has a 510mm reach... thats 2 inches longer. You need a long bike and some ~800mm wide bars, maybe wider. You're a big dude! Im only 5'7, and im fitting on bikes with ~450mm reach. You almost have a foot on me and are trying to fit fairly similar sized bikes. 

The further back your weight is, the easier your front wheel comes up.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Death... or worse o_0

'We'll all make it to the top... Some of us, might not make it to the bottom'


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## sturge (Feb 22, 2009)

6'4" here...Always have had XL frames (Trek, GT, Santa Cruz and Konas). I have to tweak every new bike bike slightly to get things how I like them but there's a limit to what you can achieve. I've gone with a longer stem once or twice but I don't like how it changes feel of steering. I've used layback posts with good results on a couple of bikes. If you're an aggressive rider in technical terrain, your seatpost hardware/rails are not long for this world when pushed seat way back in rails. That's been a problem in every bike for me and I've exploded a few. This is where I found the layback post helped on a couple of bikes...it allowed me to get seat in middle of rails while also giving me a little more room. I used my long limbs and torso to move my center of gravity around where needed to offset the layback.

I have found that being tall has it's advantages by allowing me to easily shift LOTS of my weight forward or backward depending on what's needed...more so than an average sized rider. In technical terrain I spend a lot of time OFF the seat and use my long limbs to adjust weight where it is best for conditions. But during climbing I am always in the seat. We have some steep technical climbs where I ride...I find that sliding forward in saddle and leaning forward at the waist just enough to keep front wheel down and rear wheel 'hooked up' with smooth power delivery is what works best for me. On steep climbs, the bike is at such a steep angle my knees would hit the bars if I stood up...plus when standing it's more difficult to use 'finesse' needed to keep the rear tire from losing grip and spinning out.

I have my first dropper on the new Kona. This is a game changer because it's 170mm extension means I can get to a full leg extension during climbs. Having a 36" inseam there's no way I would ever have my seatpost in the full extended position for the trails I ride. I always lived with a subpar climbing setup to keep my seat level in a lower more maneuverable position for the rest of the ride.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

One Pivot said:


> An XL honzo has a 510mm reach... thats 2 inches longer. You need a long bike and some ~800mm wide bars, maybe wider. You're a big dude! Im only 5'7, and im fitting on bikes with ~450mm reach. You almost have a foot on me and are trying to fit fairly similar sized bikes.
> 
> The further back your weight is, the easier your front wheel comes up.


I'm looking for a FS but you're right, I definitely need a longer bike. I might look at some of Kona's FS bikes since they seem to make long bikes.



targnik said:


> Death... or worse o_0
> 
> 'We'll all make it to the top... Some of us, might not make it to the bottom'


I'm using this as a reference to help justify my bike purchase to my wife.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

sturge said:


> 6'4" here...Always have had XL frames (Trek, GT, Santa Cruz and Konas). I have to tweak every new bike bike slightly to get things how I like them but there's a limit to what you can achieve. I've gone with a longer stem once or twice but I don't like how it changes feel of steering.


I absolutely hate long stems and I won't be buying another bike that I can't run a 50mm or less stem on. I have a 36" inseam also. How much reach do you feel you need? I've been considering a Trek Remedy or SC Bronson but I may need to go to something like a Hightower if they're not long enough.



> But during climbing I am always in the seat. We have some steep technical climbs where I ride...I find that sliding forward in saddle and leaning forward at the waist just enough to keep front wheel down and rear wheel 'hooked up' with smooth power delivery is what works best for me.


I try to stay seated but we have short punchy climbs in my area and some are so steep that I can't even imagine doing seated. I generally don't try to climb seated any section I wouldn't descend seated.


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## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

I rode for the longest time on a frame too small for me. I had the seat shifted as far back as it could go and the longest stem I could find. To make matters worse, the handlebars were also too narrow for my size.

The handling was twitchy. On steep technical climbs, I had difficulty finding the sweet spot to center my weight, and I either spun out my rear tire, or the front wheel would pop up. On descents, I frequently went over the bars. My lower back hurt constantly.

I finally went up a frame size and the difference was like night and day.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> I try to stay seated but we have short punchy climbs in my area and some are so steep that I can't even imagine doing seated. I generally don't try to climb seated any section I wouldn't descend seated.


Symptom of having your seated position too rearward. The little people don't even know that seated climbing is a wheelie adventure.

I think i read you lopped 2" off your stem; that's like going down 3 sizes. No wonder it sucks.

Reach has become a handling characteristic, not a fit characteristic. You need an XXL. Look at reach, but don't hang your hat on it.

for reference- i'm 6'3, my hardtail has a 470mm reach, FS has 485. Both fit correctly and i can pedal seated up anything and bunnyhop my way back down. The FS bike has a 1240mm wheelbase and it is LONG. Ponderously long on hiking trails, amazing at the bike park.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

scottzg said:


> Symptom of having your seated position too rearward. The little people don't even know that seated climbing is a wheelie adventure.
> 
> I think i read you lopped 2" off your stem; that's like going down 3 sizes. No wonder it sucks.


I got 2" wider bars too but yeah, I need to go back to a longer stem. It's a compromise for sure.


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## desertwheeler (Sep 1, 2009)

I’m 6 ft and used to ride medium bikes not really knowing any different. I had setback posts and a 110mm riser stem with 800 riser bars and lots of spacers under the stem. I spent a lot of miles on it and always felt uneasy about drops and jumps, just in general. So now I ride an XL and my confidence is way up and feel like I’m finally riding like I should be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sturge (Feb 22, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> I absolutely hate long stems and I won't be buying another bike that I can't run a 50mm or less stem on. I have a 36" inseam also. How much reach do you feel you need? I've been considering a Trek Remedy or SC Bronson but I may need to go to something like a Hightower if they're not long enough.
> 
> I try to stay seated but we have short punchy climbs in my area and some are so steep that I can't even imagine doing seated. I generally don't try to climb seated any section I wouldn't descend seated.


The 2018 153 Process (XL/27.5) has 510mm reach which feels great for me but I'm struggling a bit with excessively low bar height. There's way more pressure on my hands and wrists than I've ever experienced on my other 'non-modern geo' bikes. Due to my long inseam, with dropper fully extended the seat to stem height comparison is way off. The fork steerer tube came pre-cut so there's no room for additional spacers. The 800mm bars are a bit wide for my type of riding but I don't think cutting an inch or so off each end will make that much difference (they have 20mm rise). I am looking into 35-40mm riser bars and will probably cut to 750mm.

It climbs great for such a beast of a bike...I'm convinced even with bar modification I will still be plenty forward for climbing while getting a more balanced weight ratio between seat and bars.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

sturge said:


> The 2018 153 Process (XL/27.5) has 510mm reach which feels great for me but I'm struggling a bit with excessively low bar height. There's way more pressure on my hands and wrists than I've ever experienced on my other 'non-modern geo' bikes.


I test drove a Trek Remedy the other day. The stack on it was only 5mm taller than your 153 and it was so awkward for me. Bar height needs to be somewhat proportional to hip height I think. It even came with 30mm of spacers under the stem and a 27.5mm riser bar. I was disappointed cause it ticked off all my other boxes. I'm thinking of going with a Hightower LT. It has both the long reach and high stack.


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