# DW Link vs single pivot, worth upgrading?



## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

Assuming components are the same or similar, do you think upgrading to a DW Link bike from a single pivot is worth it?

For reference in this case, the single pivot is a Marin Rift Zone and the DW Link would be a Ripmo AF. I know the travel is different but I'm thinking specifically of pedaling and climbing efficiency here.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Your current bike will probably climb better than a Ripmo.


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## WhiteDLite (Mar 4, 2016)

Probably want to compare a Ripley AF, but DW links are known to be great peddlers comparatively to other bikes of same travel. 

Actually I think about any bike with a solid rear triangle seems to pedal well comparatively.


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## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

Thanks guys. I was considering the Ripmo because it's available. I'll keep riding what I've got until I can get a demo of something else (I was about 90% sure I would do this anyway, but it's always good to have some opinions, right?)

I was not expecting the Ripmo to be worse, is that because of the extra rear travel?


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## WhiteDLite (Mar 4, 2016)

vegen said:


> Thanks guys. I was considering the Ripmo because it's available. I'll keep riding what I've got until I can get a demo of something else (I was about 90% sure I would do this anyway, but it's always good to have some opinions, right?)
> 
> I was not expecting the Ripmo to be worse, is that because of the extra rear travel?


To be fair, you may want to see about the Ripmo. It’s a good bike, I love DW link bikes and solid rear triangle bikes.

I’ve had a Capra, and disliked pedaling it. Given I wasn’t in best shape when I had it. Went to the Firebird 29 V1 and loved it, pedaled so much better, but that’s still a 170/162 machine. It’s heavy. Finally an Arrival and that bike seems like a rocket, but it’s 160/152.

The wife has the 2021 5010, and although it’s a small I do like the feel of it when pedaling.

If it’s a local dealer go sit and do a parking lot pedal.


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## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

WhiteDLite said:


> To be fair, you may want to see about the Ripmo. It’s a good bike, I love DW link bikes and solid rear triangle bikes.
> 
> I’ve had a Capra, and disliked pedaling it. Given I wasn’t in best shape when I had it. Went to the Firebird 29 V1 and loved it, pedaled so much better, but that’s still a 170/162 machine. It’s heavy. Finally an Arrival and that bike seems like a rocket, but it’s 160/152.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking about going to an Outerbike this year. Should be some good ride opportunities at that.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

vegen said:


> I was not expecting the Ripmo to be worse, is that because of the extra rear travel?


Yeah. Comparing a 125mm bike to a 147mm bike, generally a shorter travel bike will climb more efficiently. Plus you would expect a longer travel frame to be built more beefy and it will have slightly heavier components in places. There are a lot of variables though. Geometry, fit, components, terrain, etc. 

Depending on what your motivating factors are the trade-offs may or may not be worth it to you. The Ripmo is a great bike, but it will feel much different than your Rift Zone.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I just sold my Marin Alpine Trail and bought a Ripmo AF. I've also ridden both my buddies bikes: '22 SJ EVO, and a Banshee Prime V3.

IMO, the Ripmo pedals the best out of all of them, by a long shot. It's just heavy. I'd love to afford a V2.

Edit: the Rift zone isnt a "true" single-pivot; that's something like an Orange, or an older Cannondale Prophet. The RZ is really a linkage-driven single-pivot or "faux-bar".


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

vegen said:


> Thanks guys. I was considering the Ripmo because it's available. I'll keep riding what I've got until I can get a demo of something else (I was about 90% sure I would do this anyway, but it's always good to have some opinions, right?)
> 
> I was not expecting the Ripmo to be worse, is that because of the extra rear travel?


Yes, more travel (when it's significantly more) is always going to pedal worse IME. Between the same-travel bikes, you can notice a significant difference, but if a suspension design really pedaled that well, we would have guys winning XC races on 130mm travel bikes...at high levels of competition. That just doesn't happen.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Jayem said:


> Yes, more travel (when it's significantly more) is always going to pedal worse IME. Between the same-travel bikes, you can notice a significant difference, but if a suspension design really pedaled that well, we would have guys winning XC races on 130mm travel bikes...at high levels of competition. That just doesn't happen.


That's generally true, but speaking from experience with both these bikes, the Marin doesn't pedal particularly well (it's not a wallowy pig, but it's not fantastic) to a well-executed example of a well proven DW-link, the difference is gonna be a net positive even with the extra 20mm of rear travel.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Impetus said:


> That's generally true, but speaking from experience with both these bikes, the Marin doesn't pedal particularly well (it's not a wallowy pig, but it's not fantastic) to a well-executed example of a well proven DW-link, the difference is gonna be a net positive even with the extra 20mm of rear travel.


Have never found that to be true. I'm not saying the DW is a bad pedaling bike, I've had several, still have one, but physical ability means a hell of a lot more here and travel-class bumped up 20+mm is going to have a much bigger effect. 

Also, since single-ring setups became predominant, it's a lot easier to design a single-pivot bike with decent pedaling characteristics...with most of the good pedaling of a DW or other virtual pivot design. The Rift Zone actually shows MORE anti-squat at the important points in the travel: Linkage Design

I race all disciplines on dirt, but if it's an XC race, give me a 100 or even 80mm travel bike that pedals "ok" vs. an "excellent" pedaling 120mm one. The 120mm one is always slower and less efficient IME, but the additional travel is nice for ultra-endurance stuff where you get so tired that bike handling becomes a major challenge.


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

I prefer single pivot to DW.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Jayem said:


> Have never found that to be true. I'm not saying the DW is a bad pedaling bike, I've had several, still have one, but physical ability means a hell of a lot more here and travel-class bumped up 20+mm is going to have a much bigger effect.
> 
> Also, since single-ring setups became predominant, it's a lot easier to design a single-pivot bike with decent pedaling characteristics...with most of the good pedaling of a DW or other virtual pivot design. The Rift Zone actually shows MORE anti-squat at the important points in the travel: Linkage Design
> 
> I race all disciplines on dirt, but if it's an XC race, give me a 100 or even 80mm travel bike that pedals "ok" vs. an "excellent" pedaling 120mm one. The 120mm one is always slower and less efficient IME, but the additional travel is nice for ultra-endurance stuff where you get so tired that bike handling becomes a major challenge.


Youre making generalities, which may or may not be applicable. 
Yes, the OP began asking about single-pivot vs DW, but sepcifically is asking about two specific bikes. My post was in response to my 1st hand experience with both a Marin, and a Ripmo.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

There are better climbing suspensions than a DW, and certainly better than a single pivot.

That said, if you buying a Ripmo for pedaling efficiently uphill ... that's not really what it's about.

Any bike will pedal up a hill, what efficiency means to you depends on what terrain you ride. If you're just climbing flow or a gravel road, then lock it out and who cares.

If you're climbing real tech where the suspension is in constant motion, then yeah, you need to think hard (demo) about what suspension you buy.

That said, it's more about the rider than the bike... I ride a GG Shred and a Canfield Tilt, both are ~35#, they both ride fine up hill; they rip going downhill


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

Not all single pivots feel the same just like not all DWLinks feel the same. To me, my Pivot Mach 6 feels definitely superior to my Meta TR, but it's not a night and day type of thing. Best thing to do is to try out what you're looking to buy if possible.


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## chauzie (Mar 8, 2010)

Jayem said:


> Have never found that to be true. I'm not saying the DW is a bad pedaling bike, I've had several, still have one, but physical ability means a hell of a lot more here and travel-class bumped up 20+mm is going to have a much bigger effect.
> 
> Also, since single-ring setups became predominant, it's a lot easier to design a single-pivot bike with decent pedaling characteristics...with most of the good pedaling of a DW or other virtual pivot design. The Rift Zone actually shows MORE anti-squat at the important points in the travel: Linkage Design
> 
> I race all disciplines on dirt, but if it's an XC race, give me a 100 or even 80mm travel bike that pedals "ok" vs. an "excellent" pedaling 120mm one. The 120mm one is always slower and less efficient IME, but the additional travel is nice for ultra-endurance stuff where you get so tired that bike handling becomes a major challenge.


Good point about single-chainring use. Single chainring use has simplified and benefited single pivot design much more than the multi-pivot designs.


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## blk91 (Sep 24, 2012)

It will probably be a trade off . I've had DW bikes and they are great all arounders but DW itself doesn't really mean a lot. DW kinematics can be skewed to pedaling or descending depending on the bike. Riding a Ripmo and a Slash I noticed almost no difference in pedaling but did find the Slash to be a smoother faster decender and the bike felt immediately stiffer. I don't think it's the best but I've found Horst link to be a better all arounder than most. The La Sal I had now seems to be better all round than the Slash or The Ripmo but it's probably as much geometry as the suspension.


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## frana (Jan 5, 2008)

I like the DW suspension, bikes I've demoed and friends bikes I've ridden. I've never owned one. I've been riding a scott spark for 3 yrs and having remote lockout has been great, fingertip adjustment, quick and easy. I plan on staying with it for now. Mine felt more plush than my friends Ripley, I guess the tradeoff for efficient climbing.


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## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

Thanks guys. This is all the kind of discussion I was hoping for. It has made it very clear that I need to get some demos before picking something new out.

I'm not an XC racer but the trails I ride the most are most likely classified as XC trails. I mean we have a trail rated as a black diamond but I think that's relative to the rest of trails in the area. And the fact is that I can ride all of the local trails but I don't think I can just go anywhere and ride the most difficult trails. So for my local trails, the Marin is pretty perfect. However I have plans this year to ride at more diverse places. I have a feeling that will make it clear to me where I need to go (if anywhere) with a different bike.

Forgot to add... I'm not concerned about weight in this. I mean I guess I don't want a 40 pound trail bike, but other than that, I prefer function.


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## blk91 (Sep 24, 2012)

vegen said:


> Thanks guys. This is all the kind of discussion I was hoping for. It has made it very clear that I need to get some demos before picking something new out.
> 
> I'm not an XC racer but the trails I ride the most are most likely classified as XC trails. I mean we have a trail rated as a black diamond but I think that's relative to the rest of trails in the area. And the fact is that I can ride all of the local trails but I don't think I can just go anywhere and ride the most difficult trails. So for my local trails, the Marin is pretty perfect. However I have plans this year to ride at more diverse places. I have a feeling that will make it clear to me where I need to go (if anywhere) with a different bike.


You might also just be okay with a different rear shock. If you ride someplace with more aggressive riding ad a volume spacer if there's a lot of climbing get something with some kind of platforming or a climb switch. The rift zone is a pretty flexible bike and reviews really well. I definitely ride an Endurbro bike for no reason and was faster on a 120-130 bike when riding local blue/black trails, it was also bit more fun and engaging.


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## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

blk91 said:


> You might also just be okay with a different rear shock. If you ride someplace with more aggressive riding ad a volume spacer if there's a lot of climbing get something with some kind of platforming or a climb switch. The rift zone is a pretty flexible bike and reviews really well. I definitely ride an Endurbro bike for no reason and was faster on a 120-130 bike when riding local blue/black trails, it was also bit more fun and engaging.


Yeah this is something I've been thinking about also. I just have the RS Deluxe with rebound adjustment only. However of course the flipside is more adjustments = more for me to screw up.


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## LVLBTY (Jul 15, 2020)

My Switchblade has the DW link and to be honest, it climbs much better then my previous bikes with single pivot. This, as others have mentioned, also depends on bike geometry. Throw on a really nice rear shock and you get some really smooth efficient climbing from a DW rear setup.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Get a Yeti...problem solved


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Barf.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

blk91 said:


> It will probably be a trade off . I've had DW bikes and they are great all arounders but DW itself doesn't really mean a lot. DW kinematics can be skewed to pedaling or descending depending on the bike. Riding a Ripmo and a Slash I noticed almost no difference in pedaling but did find the Slash to be a smoother faster decender and the bike felt immediately stiffer.


This. Looking at whether a bike is a linkage actuated single pivot (Delta Link by Dave Weagle), short bar four link (DW Link, Santa Cruz VPP, Banshee KS, etc.), or long four bar (Specialized, Transition, Norco, etc.) tells you absolutely nothing about how it climbs, descends or handles. What informs how a bike climbs and descends is a function of antisquat, anti-rise, leverage curve, axle path, suspension tuning and bike geometry. There is no formula that distills those widely divergent variables to a single number or description. 

You don't by a bike for the suspension design, you buy it to best fit your riding needs. First figure out what geometry best fits your needs, then figure out where on the antisquat curve you like to be between snappy feeling and plush absorbing, then what progressivity you need for your riding. That will give you the bikes that best fit your needs.


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## Juansan (Dec 30, 2020)

I went from a single pivot to a DW link and the first thing I noticed was how well the rear suspension worked when I was climbing out or on the saddle. Check out the article posted on the Ibis Ripley 
The Beta Tests: Ibis Ripley AF. "DW-Link bikes have the supernatural ability to float over obstacles whether the rider is soft-pedaling up a bumpy fire road or mashing through a root section". That statement says it all.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Juansan said:


> The Beta Tests: Ibis Ripley AF. "DW-Link bikes have the supernatural ability to float over obstacles whether the rider is soft-pedaling up a bumpy fire road or mashing through a root section". That statement says it all.


Or in real English instead of reviewer gushing: “Dave Weagle is an expert in balancing the suspension kinematics and tuning for our riders’ preferences.” There is no magic, just a well employed knowledge of physics by a talented engineer.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

You can see in XC racing, where efficiency is paramount, that the DW link is rare, a few teams still use it, but they aren't the power-house teams. The reason is you can still get decent kinematics out of single pivot bikes and they will weigh less with less linkages and required frame support. The flex-stay bikes are even lighter. Where I see the biggest benefit of a DW style bike is the lateral rigidity. They are much easier to make laterally rigid, which means less flexing and binding with the suspension. This is the same for any of the parallel-link type bikes. This doesn't guarantee they are more rigid, that comes down to individual execution, but it is generally true. As for true efficiency, even things like lockouts only give you a couple seconds overall on a 1000' climb. If you like the "feel" of the DW link while pedaling, that may be a more important criteria. Rather than, how "fast" it is, as it may not be any faster, or just so marginal that in the big picture who cares.


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## abeckstead (Feb 29, 2012)

Why not both? Get an Evil... DW designed single pivot bike... lol


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## chauzie (Mar 8, 2010)

Danzzz88 said:


> Get a Yeti...problem solved


haha finally the correct answer.
I have the Yeti SB130. Can almost keep up with the guys on XC-oriented bikes but I have a lot more fun on the down.
When it comes to "enduro" bikes that you need to pedal up to have fun on the down...
Yeti Switch Inifity > DW link > other four-bar designs


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

chauzie said:


> haha finally the correct answer.
> I have the Yeti SB130. Can almost keep up with the guys on XC-oriented bikes but I have a lot more fun on the down.
> When it comes to "enduro" bikes that you need to pedal up to have fun on the down...
> Yeti Switch Inifity > DW link > other four-bar designs


It's just a way around the various virtual pivot patents, like DW link. Except, it's a more complicated way to do it that is more prone to failure.


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## 410sprint (Oct 19, 2012)

My two cents:

The rear suspension design is only a part of the picture. You need to also consider the geometry of the frame. Things like wheelbase and chain stay length… If you are riding a lot of tight twisty XC trails and no significant downhills, or racing XC, the shorter travel, wheelbase and chain stay length of the Marin is probably a better choice. But if you are, or see yourself in the future, riding rougher, faster and more downhill trails the Ibis is going to be a better choice. Period.

FWIW: I have not ridden the Marin so I have no feedback. Before getting my Ripley AF, I spent a lot of time on the Ripmo AF, and considering it’s a 160mm/147mm bike, it’s climbing ability is truly remarkable. I wound up getting the Ripley because it was a slightly better match to the type of riding I do, but I’m sure I would have been very happy with the Ripmo as well. This is my second DW Link bike and I find them to be very efficient for pedaling and climbing.


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## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

410sprint said:


> My two cents:
> 
> The rear suspension design is only a part of the picture. You need to also consider the geometry of the frame. Things like wheelbase and chain stay length… If you are riding a lot of tight twisty XC trails and no significant downhills, or racing XC, the shorter travel, wheelbase and chain stay length of the Marin is probably a better choice. But if you are, or see yourself in the future, riding rougher, faster and more downhill trails the Ibis is going to be a better choice. Period.
> 
> FWIW: I have not ridden the Marin so I have no feedback. Before getting my Ripley AF, I spent a lot of time on the Ripmo AF, and considering it’s a 160mm/147mm bike, it’s climbing ability is truly remarkable. I wound up getting the Ripley because it was a slightly better match to the type of riding I do, but I’m sure I would have been very happy with the Ripmo as well. This is my second DW Link bike and I find them to be very efficient for pedaling and climbing.


I've got high aspirations! But yeah, I need to wait until it's more obvious.


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## blk91 (Sep 24, 2012)

Just going to go out and say it but as long as it's not VPP you should be fine  . Also Yeti is a great choice if you have a backup bike and are okay with them "apparently " not being great with warranties.


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## 410sprint (Oct 19, 2012)

blk91 said:


> Just going to go out and say it but as long as it's not VPP you should be fine  .


Not sure if you were kidding or serious. The two most recent versions of VPP on the Santa Cruz bikes are outstanding.


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## blk91 (Sep 24, 2012)

410sprint said:


> Not sure if you were kidding or serious. The two most recent versions of VPP on the Santa Cruz bikes are outstanding.


I'm serious but it's just a personal preference I've never liked VPP and it still has noticable pedal feedback , doesn't remain active under breaking and I feel like they feel like they have less travel then they do. Though now that I think about it I think I did like Diamondback and La piere's VPP at bit more than Intense/Santa Cruz Vpp.


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## chauzie (Mar 8, 2010)

Jayem said:


> It's just a way around the various virtual pivot patents, like DW link. Except, it's a more complicated way to do it that is more prone to failure.


my backup bike is a hardtail, which i can still ride on all the trails that i normally ride on the yeti, except i go slower on the hardtail on the down, not a big deal.

but what i like most about the yeti sb130 is that it pedals the best of all the bikes in this travel range, including all the DW bikes from Pivot and Ibis, especially when seated. I have roadie endurance, can sit and power thru the rougies all day, and the sb130 suits me very well. I can almost keep up with many of the fastest guys on XC bikes around here, leave them in the dust on the descent. The other thing I love about the yeti is that it rides really high in the top 1/3 part of the travel, doesn't sink down, doesn't bob much, and I like this feeling of firmness because it pops easier, but when the travel gets past this 1/3 part, then it becomes plush quickly. This is something I find unique to Yeti. DW bikes don't have this characteristic.

Yes, I realize the Switch Infinity adds a layer of complication, when thus another layer of potential failure. But this is a cheap price I'm willing to pay. My friend's Ibis is not without its issue with the DW link either. Hence, it's why I have a hardtail as a backup.


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## blk91 (Sep 24, 2012)

chauzie said:


> my backup bike is a hardtail, which i can still ride on all the trails that i normally ride on the yeti, except i go slower on the hardtail on the down, not a big deal.
> 
> but what i like most about the yeti sb130 is that it pedals the best of all the bikes in this travel range, including all the DW bikes from Pivot and Ibis, especially when seated. I have roadie endurance, can sit and power thru the rougies all day, and the sb130 suits me very well. I can almost keep up with many of the fastest guys on XC bikes around here, leave them in the dust on the descent. The other thing I love about the yeti is that it rides really high in the top 1/3 part of the travel, doesn't sink down, doesn't bob much, and I like this feeling of firmness because it pops easier, but when the travel gets past this 1/3 part, then it becomes plush quickly. This is something I find unique to Yeti. DW bikes don't have this characteristic.
> 
> Yes, I realize the Switch Infinity adds a layer of complication, when thus another layer of potential failure. But this is a cheap price I'm willing to pay. My friend's Ibis is not without its issue with the DW link either. Hence, it's why I have a hardtail as a backup.


I don't have any real gripes with Yeti's kinematics but I have seen an alarming amount of broken frames.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Jayem said:


> Have never found that to be true. I'm not saying the DW is a bad pedaling bike, I've had several, still have one, but physical ability means a hell of a lot more here and travel-class bumped up 20+mm is going to have a much bigger effect.
> 
> Also, since single-ring setups became predominant, it's a lot easier to design a single-pivot bike with decent pedaling characteristics...with most of the good pedaling of a DW or other virtual pivot design. The Rift Zone actually shows MORE anti-squat at the important points in the travel: Linkage Design
> 
> I race all disciplines on dirt, but if it's an XC race, give me a 100 or even 80mm travel bike that pedals "ok" vs. an "excellent" pedaling 120mm one. The 120mm one is always slower and less efficient IME, but the additional travel is nice for ultra-endurance stuff where you get so tired that bike handling becomes a major challenge.


That a-s chart confused me until I saw it was a 32-16. Look at the 32-36 and above, its below 100% at sag.

I've had my Mach6v3 set up as a 29lbs with pedals trail bike and 32lbs enduro bike. 30t ring to bump up the a-s a bit. The linkage is not less efficient than the three 100mm xc bikes I've gone through in the last two years, on flat trails. I just use less travel.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Juansan said:


> I went from a single pivot to a DW link and the first thing I noticed was how well the rear suspension worked when I was climbing out or on the saddle. Check out the article posted on the Ibis Ripley
> The Beta Tests: Ibis Ripley AF. "DW-Link bikes have the supernatural ability to float over obstacles whether the rider is soft-pedaling up a bumpy fire road or mashing through a root section". That statement says it all.


JS Tuned with a coil does that better. But good luck finding a professional review of the Primer S.


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## chauzie (Mar 8, 2010)

blk91 said:


> I don't have any real gripes with Yeti's kinematics but I have seen an alarming amount of broken frames.


hopefully the 2021 sb130 model has no issue with frame cracking, at any rate there's lifetime warranty on the frame.


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## blk91 (Sep 24, 2012)

chauzie said:


> hopefully the 2021 sb130 model has no issue with frame cracking, at any rate there's lifetime warranty on the frame.


I hope so too


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

My name is Ben and I’m a bike whore 😊

I have gotten along with nearly every bike I’ve ridden other than the Druid.

I have my favs, and the ones I didn’t like ad much, but mist of the time I’ve been able to tune a suspension to work for my needs.

Someone earlier wrote that you pick a bike for geo and fit first, then look at suspension.

… which makes a lot of sense.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Your current bike will probably climb better than a Ripmo.


Actually, it might not. I demoed a Ripley and Ripmo and ii bought the Ripley but the difference in climbing was not that negligible. The Rimpo is an amazing climber.


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