# Dead Horse Point State Park [Utah] ride report



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Ride report for ebike friendly Dead Horse Point State Park [Utah]. I've been wanting to do this ride with the wife. She is a novice, scared of heights, rocks, interesting trail features, and such. Basically anything that makes mountain biking fun. LOL. We arrived early with two Levos. My original goal was to ride it once with the wife and then hit it again by myself. I've seen recommendations on the internet to ride the loop clockwise but we ended up riding CCW. The next time I am out there I want to ride it both directions so as to not discriminate.

The loop we did was 15 miles. I noticed on Strava that people have done it in 1hr 13min. It took us a moving time of 2hr 50 min and total time of 3hr 40 min LOL. We stopped at numerous view points and parked the bikes each time to hike out to the overlooks. I noticed other people were riding their bikes "off trail" to see the overlooks but we walked as per signage. After we got started I used my specialized app and quickly turned down the power level on my bike in hopes of 
saving the battery for a second ride later (also the trail is really easy so very little assist was needed). I kept the power turned up on the wife's bike and on the second half of the ride we turned hers up to MED.

We rode the trails on the visitor center side first. At first I thought it was way too hard for the wife and she would not like. However, she did really well. The plus sized tires of the Levo help inspire confidence and they float really well in the sand traps. I noticed many bikes on the trail with red grimy chains since they were using wet lube. When you go to Moab make sure you are using some kind of dry chain lube/wax. So in spite of being passed many times by little children, the first half went really well with the wife crashing just once. At the half way point the trail crosses the highway near the entrance shack so it is an ideal spot for the less experienced to get off and head back to the visitor center. I gave the option to my wife and she declined in favor of completing the loop.

The trails located adjacent to the entrance gate were super smooth and fast flowing for a couple of miles. My wife really liked that. Then the trails turned much more technical. My wife had two more crashes. After each crash she became more timid and then it really turned into some slow going. Some groups that we met on the trail were having 
the time of their lives. Other "family" groups were very upset at the difficulty of this half of the trail and we saw different kids crying and a teen age girl crying. (Thanks DAD! LOL)

The temp was only 70F but the sun beat down like we were in the pit of hell. I can only imagine what it would be like mid day in the summer. The three crashes, sun exposure, plus the fact it was my wife's first ride of the year really took it's toll. Luckily I picked up some Cliff bars on the drive up so we stopped for some nourishment. My wife was getting anemic and her bottom hurt so bad she was having problems sitting. Unfortunately, once you are out on the Whipped Tail and Twisted Tree sections you are definitely committed to finishing. I began to wonder if my wife was going to make it out alive and then we started having problems with our brakes. Her front brake would lock up the front wheel if used at all. Both of my brakes started dragging and hanging up something fierce. This would pretty much kill any hopes of second ride that day (from either bike). My Levo has 1900 miles on it and this was 
the first time I have had any brake trouble. Apparently this is a well known problem with Avid Guide brakes where the sun heats up the reservoir and sticks the piston at the levers. Hopefully warranty will send some new brakes for both bikes.

Overall, my wife was happy that she completed the loop. It would have never been possible without the ebike. My next trip out there (by myself) I estimate maybe a 1.5 hr time for the loop and I plan on riding the loop both directions back to back for 3 hrs. That would be 30 miles but I think the Levo can do it. If you park outside the park and ride your bike in the cost is only $2.

Cheers. Thanks for reading.

Slide show 
https://jodiraerod.smugmug.com/fram...transition=fade&transitionSpeed=2&clickable=1


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Just curious, did Dead Horse Point SP officially open those trails to eBikes? I called them up last year and they said they were still in the decision making process.

The official name for that area is the Intrepid Trail System.

https://stateparks.utah.gov/parks/dead-horse/intrepid-trail/

From the website:

"The Intrepid Trail System at Dead Horse Point State Park offers 16.6-miles of non-motorized singletrack trails. Moab Trail Mix, with a generous donation from Intrepid Potash Inc., completed the system in 2014."

The people at the Moab Trail Mix are very anti-eBike, which is why I ask.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Sounds like you didn't break any speed records, and who cares? More important is fun per mile (for me). Nice report and pictures. Seems like SRAM needs to go back to the drawing board or hire some Avid employees back.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Outstanding ride report and pictures, Giant Warp! Thank you for sharing. "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Giant Warp again."

Best Regards,
Mike


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

In Utah, low powered ebikes are allowed on State Land unless otherwise posted.

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title41/Chapter6a/41-6a-S1115.5.html


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Giant Warp said:


> In Utah, low powered ebikes are allowed on State Land unless otherwise posted.
> 
> https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title41/Chapter6a/41-6a-S1115.5.html


I didn't think the Motor Vehicle Code applied to natural surface offroad trails.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

The viewpoints on that trail network are unreal. I plan to head back there when I am iMNO ab next. :thumbsup:


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## JillRide45 (Dec 11, 2015)

Dead horse was open to ebikes last year. Spectacular place to ride. Have fun!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## kneecap (Dec 20, 2003)

WOW, spectacular pics, nice photo work. I'm gonna have to go there!


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Arrive early, avoid the crowds and heat. This trail is advertised as family friendly so expect large trains later in the day. I would say one side is family friendly but the other side no.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

This map is really interesting. At first glance it looks like the loop borders a mountain range but it borders a canyon. Very unique.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Just came back from there with the family last week.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

You're very fortunate to have such beautiful trails and vistas nearby!


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Giant that's pretty cool. I have not been to Dead Horse Point in about 15 years. You are in Magna UT? I grew up in Price, about 3 hrs or so from Dead Horse Point, used to hike that area a lot when I was a kid. Can't remember much what I rode for a bike back then lol. Can't wait to ride Moab one day (I'm in San Diego now). My wife and I also plan on visiting Boulder/Torrey UT every year or so to see relatives, good hiking/biking there. Boulder mountain is about 8700 ft elevation / 4000 feet up from the base so it's quite a climb.


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## sunderland56 (Aug 27, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> The people at the Moab Trail Mix are very anti-eBike


They're not anti- or pro- they are merely following the wishes and guidance of the land managers involved. Since well over 90 percent of trails there are on BLM land, it's BLM policy that rules for most of them. Some trails (like Slickrock) do welcome ebikes.

Trail Mix isn't involved in the trails at Dead Horse Point since they aren't in Moab or Grand County. They were built and are maintained by the Park.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

sunderland56 said:


> They're not anti- or pro- they are merely following the wishes and guidance of the land managers involved. Since well over 90 percent of trails there are on BLM land, it's BLM policy that rules for most of them. Some trails (like Slickrock) do welcome ebikes.
> 
> Trail Mix isn't involved in the trails at Dead Horse Point since they aren't in Moab or Grand County. They were built and are maintained by the Park.


Right on the website for the Intrepid Trail System: "The Intrepid Trail System at Dead Horse Point State Park offers 16.6-miles of non-motorized singletrack trails. Moab Trail Mix, with a generous donation from Intrepid Potash Inc., completed the system in 2014."

If Trail Mix builds a trail on BLM, there is nothing stopping them from allowing eBikes. How is it that Sovereign allows motor cycles? It is on BLM.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> If Trail Mix builds a trail on BLM, there is nothing stopping them from allowing eBikes. How is it that Sovereign allows motor cycles? It is on BLM.


I could be reading this wrong, but the BLM would decide if the trail is motorized or not, thereby ebike legal and not whoever does the building. If the "them" you're referring to is Trail Mix and not the BLM....


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Harryman said:


> I could be reading this wrong, but the BLM would decide if the trail is motorized or not, thereby ebike legal and not whoever does the building. If the "them" you're referring to is Trail Mix and not the BLM....


If Trail Mix proposed a new trail and wanted it to allow eBikes, they could negotiate that. BLM has the ability to allow or deny a specific use for a trail or any other recreation area, there is no blanket designation required. That's why there are BLM areas where you can't shoot guns, and OHV trails where you can ride a motorcycle but not an ATV.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

What is this trail mix everyone keeps talking about? Does it have granola?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> If Trail Mix proposed a new trail and wanted it to allow eBikes, they could negotiate that. BLM has the ability to allow or deny a specific use for a trail or any other recreation area, there is no blanket designation required. That's why there are BLM areas where you can't shoot guns, and OHV trails where you can ride a motorcycle but not an ATV.


Here's how trails get approved.

Option 1: Trail Mix proposes a trail to the BLM citing it's various merits, in an area with previously designated parameters. The BLM either approves it, doesn't approve it, or says, "Let's make these changes".

Option 2: There is already an approved trail from a previous BLM plan sitting on a virtual shelf, Trail Mix offers to build it.

The BLM is the authority, Trail Mix hasn't any power to negotiate with them, if the BLM wants any trail to be moto legal, it will be. My assumption is that if Trail Mix doesn't like ebikes, they won't build any ebike legal trails, but they don't get to make that designation.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Harryman said:


> Here's how trails get approved.
> 
> Option 1: Trail Mix proposes a trail to the BLM citing it's various merits, in an area with previously designated parameters. The BLM either approves it, doesn't approve it, or says, "Let's make these changes".
> 
> ...


BLM can allow/disallow any use they want. If Trail Mix said they wanted to build a trail on which eBikes were allowed, BLM could make that happen. They don't ask. Several of their trails cross SITLA property as well.

The various land management agencies around Moab have huge knots in their panties over eBikes. Examples: NPS doesn't allow eBikes on White Rim, which is open to lifted Jeeps and dirt bikes, Moab itself doesn't allow eBikes on any of their paved bike trails, including the one along 313, and BLM published last Fall an eBike map that specifically calls out several motorized trails as being off limits to eBikes. Dead Horse Point wasn't open to eBikes until the state forced the issue.

There are still a lot of great rides around Moab for ebikes, but the bizarre policies of the land managers make it very difficult to figure out what is going on.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> They don't ask.


Proof?

Looking at their makeup, there's not an ebike representative, change is best accomplished from within.

https://www.grandcountyutah.net/223/Trail-Mix-Committee

Agreed on the schitozphrenic access stuff though. No ebikes on White Rim? Can't figure that one out.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

In Utah anything 750W or less is by law considered a bicycle. This would mean that a bicycle representative is by default an ebike representative.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

So if it is indeed true that the White Rim is not open to ebikes is it because they are afraid someone's battery will go dead? I demand solar panel charging stations and windmill power. LOL


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## sunderland56 (Aug 27, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> "The Intrepid Trail System ... Moab Trail Mix ... completed the system in 2014."


It is true that Trail Mix was contracted to build those trails (because they are the SE Utah experts on bike trails); but it was not a Trail Mix initiated project, and Trail Mix has no further involvement with them.



honkinunit said:


> If Trail Mix builds a trail on BLM, there is nothing stopping them from allowing eBikes. How is it that Sovereign allows motor cycles? It is on BLM.


The trails at Sovereign are designated as motorized. BLM designates motorized versus non-motorized for each trail. For instance, at the Brand trail system, the Bar-M trail allows motors; the Bar-B trail does not.

Trail Mix (officially a committee of the Grand County government) is specifically set up for all non-motorized dirt trails - hikers, bicyclists, equestrian, climbing/canyoneering. Their legal definition means they cannot build or maintain jeep roads, motorcycle trails, or ebike trails.

Now, if someone wanted to setup a similar thing for ebikes, that would certainly be possible, and would probably be a good idea. In fact, you don't even need a committee. Any group, or any private citizen, is perfectly free to design an ebike trail and propose it to the BLM/SITLA/etc - and then if it is approved, write grant proposals to fund it, and then build and maintain it.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Grand County Government is subject to Utah law. Low powered electric assist bikes are considered bicycles by law. It is not true that Trail Mix can not legally be involved with the ebike. It is up to the local trail authority to determine access. Not the committee. 

If any trail that the committee worked on should be open to ebikes it should be Captain Ahab. The biggest complaint that traditionalists fume about on MTBR is that the ebike has excessive speed going uphill. Captain Ahab is one direction expert level designed mountain bike trail on public property. There could be no complaints of head on collisions. There are no blind corners. Ebikes like the Levo are plagued with pedal strikes and low bottom bracket height on technical trails which would mean a collective lower downhill speed than a traditional mountain bike. Opening this trail to ebikes would be a huge gesture to calm the natives.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Giant Warp said:


> Opening this trail to ebikes would be a huge gesture to calm the natives.


Not enough natives to risk alienating other, larger user groups.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

sunderland56 said:


> The trails at Sovereign are designated as motorized. BLM designates motorized versus non-motorized for each trail. For instance, at the Brand trail system, the Bar-M trail allows motors; the Bar-B trail does not.
> 
> Trail Mix (officially a committee of the Grand County government) is specifically set up for all non-motorized dirt trails - hikers, bicyclists, equestrian, climbing/canyoneering. Their legal definition means they cannot build or maintain jeep roads, motorcycle trails, or ebike trails.
> 
> Now, if someone wanted to setup a similar thing for ebikes, that would certainly be possible, and would probably be a good idea. In fact, you don't even need a committee. Any group, or any private citizen, is perfectly free to design an ebike trail and propose it to the BLM/SITLA/etc - and then if it is approved, write grant proposals to fund it, and then build and maintain it.


BLM has ultimate control over the trail designation, that is my point. When Sovereign was built, it wasn't mountain bikers saying hey, let's build a trail, and BLM saying sure, as long as it is a motorcycle trail, we will approve it. If Trail Mix asked for a trail to be MTB and eBike, I'm sure BLM would go for it.

Given that Moab and Grand County prohibit eBikes even on paved trails, how far do you think a proposal to build an eBike specific trail would go? About as far as the wastebasket, I would guess.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

life behind bars said:


> Not enough natives to risk alienating other, larger user groups.


This trail only has one user group. Mountain bikes. There might be a lone hiker but that would be dangerous for the hiker.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Giant Warp said:


> This trail only has one user group. Mountain bikes. There might be a lone hiker but that would be dangerous for the hiker.


That makes two user groups.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Giant Warp said:


> Grand County Government is subject to Utah law. Low powered electric assist bikes are considered bicycles by law. It is not true that Trail Mix can not legally be involved with the ebike. It is up to the local trail authority to determine access. Not the committee.


I think you're splitting hairs here. Trail Mix can *legally* do stuff with e-bikes, of course. Their OWN bylaws (or articles of incorporation, or whatever) say they just do nonmotorized stuff, and they can interpret their own rules how they see fit.

The UT law is very specific about local authorities being allowed to allow/not allow e-bikes as they see fit. If you want more e-bike access in Moab (which, IMO, is an ideal location for it) you need to get involved either with Trail Mix or start up your own organization and make it happen.

It would be worth going to a meeting - I am not familiar with the folks at Trail Mix in particular, but you need to understand that the people that do serious advocacy and trailbuilding work are mostly *hardcore* mountain bike lifers and they tend to strongly dislike the whole concept of e-bikes, for better or worse. But the folks who show up year in and year out get to run things, and they have the ear of the land managers. Only way to change that is to become one of them.

-Walt


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Giant Warp said:


> Grand County Government is subject to Utah law. Low powered electric assist bikes are considered bicycles by law. It is not true that Trail Mix can not legally be involved with the ebike. It is up to the local trail authority to determine access. Not the committee.
> 
> If any trail that the committee worked on should be open to ebikes it should be Captain Ahab. The biggest complaint that traditionalists fume about on MTBR is that the ebike has excessive speed going uphill. Captain Ahab is one direction expert level designed mountain bike trail on public property. There could be no complaints of head on collisions. There are no blind corners. Ebikes like the Levo are plagued with pedal strikes and low bottom bracket height on technical trails which would mean a collective lower downhill speed than a traditional mountain bike. Opening this trail to ebikes would be a huge gesture to calm the natives.


IDK about Cpt Ahab, Imagine if you were to get a power spike or the throttle (ie. peddle assist) gets stuck when maneuvering past some of the really sketchy technical sections at the end of a cliff.... scary.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Lemonaid said:


> Imagine if you were to get a power spike or the throttle (ie. peddle assist) gets stuck when maneuvering past some of the really sketchy technical sections at the end of a cliff.... scary.


You know....I keep waiting for someone to come up with an ebike awareness video like the 1940's Reefer Madness news reels....


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Double Butted said:


> You know....I keep waiting for someone to come up with an ebike awareness video like the 1940's Reefer Madness news reels....


Something like this?













or this?
Segway company owner rides scooter off cliff - World news - Europe | NBC News


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Lemonaid said:


> Something like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. Anyone who watches that and equates it to a class 1 ebike is a moron or instigator and part of the problem. That's a home built 5000 FIVE THOUSAND WATT throttle driven electric motorcycle. Anyone who claims that's what e mountain bikes are is a fool or a hater trying to instigate.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Would you like me to direct you to videos of non ebike mountain bikers falling off cliffs and other things? Do you have all day?


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Personally I'm ok with taking my wife and kids to Dead Horse state park and letting my wife ride an ebike where allowed, but I probably wound't recommend riding one near one of these.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Double Butted said:


> Would you like me to direct you to videos of non ebike mountain bikers falling off cliffs and other things? Do you have all day?


I'm here all day


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Double Butted said:


> Yes. Anyone who watches that and equates it to a class 1 ebike is a moron or instigator and part of the problem. That's a home built 5000 FIVE THOUSAND WATT throttle driven electric motorcycle. Anyone who claims that's what e mountain bikes are is a fool or a hater trying to instigate.


You'r way off topic.... I would chill before the mods bust you. This will be my last response to your instigation. As I would like to refrain from changing the discussion related to the topic.

And my remarks were intended to say that riding any motorized device near a cliff is probably a bad idea.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Lemonaid said:


> You'r way off topic.... I would chill before the mods bust you.


I'm off topic? You're suggesting that ebikes don't belong somewhere based on a video of a five thousand watt home built motorcycle that won't stop. Someone needs fact checking. I think that's VERY germane to the conversation.

And Ralph Nader and my grandmother would probably tell you it's not a good idea to ride any bicycle near a cliff at all. So?


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Double Butted said:


> I'm off topic? You're suggesting that ebikes don't belong somewhere based on a video of a five thousand watt home built motorcycle that won't stop. Someone needs fact checking. I think that's VERY germane to the conversation.


Again you're forcing me to respond to your accusations. So I will before the mods delete this so you can read it... Where do you see a 5000w bike in the video? It could just as well be a class 1 bike for all I know. All i see is a guy on an ebike.

Is that something you made up to start a conversation or to get my post deleted?


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Lemonaid said:


> Where do you see a 5000w bike in the video? All i see is a guy on an ebike.
> 
> Is that something you made up to start a conversation?


I see a 5000 watt bike in the video in the VIDEO TITLE where it says " 5000w fighting against 8" hydraulic brakes".

It's part of the guys page where he builds 5,000 and 10,000 watt "ebikes". REEFER MADNESS!


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Double Butted said:


> I see a 5000 watt bike in the video in the VIDEO TITLE where it says " 5000w fighting against 8" hydraulic brakes".
> 
> It's part of the guys page where he builds 5,000 and 10,000 watt "ebikes". REEFER MADNESS!


No the title doesn't say any of that but nice try

Seems like you're just trying to find excuses to continue this argument that you invented

And I'm not the one here who called you a moron


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Lemonaid said:


> No the title doesn't say any of that but nice try
> 
> Seems like you're just trying to find excuses to continue this argument


Not sure if you're trolling or being serious.

Hyena Industries
Published on Mar 24, 2011
Stuck throttle on my ebike. 
5000w fighting against 8" hydraulic brakes. 
Motor 1: Hyena 0
Very low key stack though.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Double Butted said:


> Not sure if you're trolling or being serious.
> 
> Hyena Industries
> Published on Mar 24, 2011
> ...


Did you say that the title of the video?

And does it tell you how the 5000w was generated? It could be the kinetic energy going downhill for all anyone knows. Seems like you are paranoid anti anti ebike establishment


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

> And does it tell you how the 5000w was generated? It could be the kinetic energy going downhill for all anyone knows. Seems like you are paranoid anti anti ebike establishment


Is this real life? I'm being trolled aren't I? Is this candid camera?


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Double Butted said:


> Yes. Anyone who watches that and equates it to a class 1 ebike is a moron or instigator and part of the problem. That's a home built 5000 FIVE THOUSAND WATT throttle driven electric motorcycle. Anyone who claims that's what e mountain bikes are is a fool or a hater trying to instigate.


No you're not being trolled.

And everything you said above is based on observations you made because of your biased paranoid opinion. It was you who decided to open up a can of worms.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Lemonaid said:


> No you're not being trolled.
> 
> And everything you said above is based on observations you made because of your biased paranoid opinion. It was you who decided to open up a can of worms.


I certainly didn't mean to imply you're a moron. I guess I really didn't believe that you honestly thought a five thousand watt throttle driven bike is a class 1 ebike...so I didn't know you'd take that personally.

If you honestly didn't notice the video title/synopsis where it says it's 5000 watts...or if, somehow you finally did realize you were wrong and that the video does say it's 5,000 watts and your honest to goodness explanation for that is that the guy means it has "5,000 watts of kinetic energy going downhill", then..well... I dunno......


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OK, the kinetic energy thing just blew my mind.

I think we should restrict all MTBs, electric or not, from trails based on the potential kinetic energy for the specific trail, based on total mass of the rider and bike, plus all add ons like Camelbaks, considering the slope of the trail and the riding surface, along with the tire profile and how long it has been since the rider took a dump.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

honkinunit said:


> OK, the kinetic energy thing just blew my mind.
> 
> I think we should restrict all MTBs, electric or not, from trails based on the potential kinetic energy for the specific trail, based on total mass of the rider and bike, plus all add ons like Camelbaks, considering the slope of the trail and the riding surface, along with the tire profile and how long it has been since the rider took a dump.


:lol:


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> OK, the kinetic energy thing just blew my mind.
> 
> I think we should restrict all MTBs, electric or not, from trails based on the potential kinetic energy for the specific trail, based on total mass of the rider and bike, plus all add ons like Camelbaks, considering the slope of the trail and the riding surface, along with the tire profile and how long it has been since the rider took a dump.


I'm with you! Don't forget the total of elevation change, that one is a key!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Don't forget the rotation of the earth, and the position of the moon!

-W


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Barometric pressure.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

dead horses and internet conversations about ebikes go well together.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

This thread is done.


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