# Cost effective E-Bike.



## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

I've been watching E-Bikes for a long time. The first E-Bike that caught my attention was the Stealth Bomber. I fell in love with the concept of a fast, throttle bike which could go everywhere. 

I later wanted to purchase one, but learned that they all had one thing in common. The cost to purchase an electric bike was very high, so I decided to try and wait for the market to calm down. 

I recently looked at the market again, and it has grown greatly over the course of a year or two. I found a company called Hi Power Cycles which sells throttle bikes at a cheaper price. Still- the price they charge is really high.

I recently tried a Stromer ST2 and really disliked the pedal assisted idea.
I definitely want to stick with the throttle instead of pedal assist.

Do any of you know an electric bike company which sells throttle electric bikes at a reasonable price?


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

Hope you don't plan on riding bike trails with a throttle assisted bike. However, if their street or ORV trails, have fun and tear it up. 


Personally, since e-bikes from bike shops have such a huge novelty market, with stupid markup, I'd look at getting a good quality, strong and reliable mountain bike, and do the e-bike conversion myself. $200-500 for a decent used bike, $300-500 for the kit, plus good batteries.


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

watts888 said:


> Hope you don't plan on riding bike trails with a throttle assisted bike. However, if their street or ORV trails, have fun and tear it up.
> 
> Personally, since e-bikes from bike shops have such a huge novelty market, with stupid markup, I'd look at getting a good quality, strong and reliable mountain bike, and do the e-bike conversion myself. $200-500 for a decent used bike, $300-500 for the kit, plus good batteries.


Nope- I have a lot of respect for the trails. An electric bike really doesn't belong there unless they are dirt bike trails. I'm totally fine doing the conversion kit- any ones I should look at? Hi power cycles conversion kits are from 1-4K. Ridiculously expensive


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Sounds like you don't want to pedal at all, so go to ebay, 48V, 1000w; for $200-$250 acesseries (or close) will sell you a 26" rear hub kit. Luna Cycle has 52V batteries as inexpensive as $229 plus shipping and charger. My kitted bike goes 32 mph. Another slower, but better off road possibility is a Dillenger 36V, 350w front hub kit with battery for $699 plus shipping or so. This was my first kit; lightweight and nicely balanced, 22mph.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Take a look at the Sondors. A buddy bought one while they were still crowd sourcing funds. Nice fat ebike. I've ridden one and liked it, so I'm really not a hater, even though I disagree that they should be allowed everywhere a pedal only mountain bike is allowed.

Take a look:

Homepage - Sondors


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

chuckha62 said:


> Take a look at the Sondors. A buddy bought one while they were still crowd sourcing funds. Nice fat ebike. I've ridden one and liked it, so I'm really not a hater, even though I disagree that they should be allowed everywhere a pedal only mountain bike is allowed.
> 
> Take a look:
> 
> Homepage - Sondors


Love the price! Unfortunately I live in a very hilly area. Not sure if that bike is powerful enough to conquer the hills here!


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

All Mtn= Fun said:


> Love the price! Unfortunately I live in a very hilly area. Not sure if that bike is powerful enough to conquer the hills here!


I've ridden one. It is.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

If you are going to ride off-road stay away from hub motors. Most have the wrong windings to be useful on the trail and all of them put a lot of weight in the wrong place. A BBS02 mid-drive currently costs just over $500 at Luna and a Shark pack to match is around $435 and would be well suited to an MTB conversion. That would put the weight of the motor and the battery as close to the cg as possible. The two things to look for in a conversion bike are the ability to rotate the motor as far upwards as possible for ground clearance and a triangle large enough for your battery. If you choose to carry the battery in a backpack you only have to worry about motor fitment.


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

WoodlandHills said:


> If you are going to ride off-road stay away from hub motors. Most have the wrong windings to be useful on the trail and all of them put a lot of weight in the wrong place. A BBS02 mid-drive currently costs just over $500 at Luna and a Shark pack to match is around $435 and would be well suited to an MTB conversion. That would put the weight of the motor and the battery as close to the cg as possible. The two things to look for in a conversion bike are the ability to rotate the motor as far upwards as possible for ground clearance and a triangle large enough for your battery. If you choose to carry the battery in a backpack you only have to worry about motor fitment.


That might be tricky as my current SantaCruz Superlight sits quite close to the ground. Maybe I'll get a hub motor and treat it well. I can take it easy on the bumps. I will need to be climbing about 10-15% grade hills 90% of my riding time, so it is essential to have something that runs efficient and cool. Not to mention powerful enough to climb all of those hills going more than 5mph.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

+1 with WH; for off road use, especially hilly areas, a mid drive is imperative. Additionally, you're not going to like the feel of a 10 pound (geared) or 20 pound (direct drive) motor when riding no matter how gingerly. I have a SC Superlight too and wouldn't convert it since it's too low. Great for handling (with an occasional pedal strike) but too low for a mid-drive IMO.


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

fos'l said:


> +1 with WH; for off road use, especially hilly areas, a mid drive is imperative. Additionally, you're not going to like the feel of a 10 pound (geared) or 20 pound (direct drive) motor when riding no matter how gingerly. I have a SC Superlight too and wouldn't convert it since it's too low. Great for handling (with an occasional pedal strike) but too low for a mid-drive IMO.


All the mid-drive bikes seem to be 750 watts or under. I've found 5000 watt hub motor bikes which seem to be much more powerful. The only mid drive systems I see are Yamaha and Bosch.


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## Abagrizzli (May 28, 2012)

You're not looking well. There are plenty of mid-drives over 750 - BBSHD, Lightning rod, Tangent, GNG and many others, not to forget about top of the line overpriced Ego kits with 3400W engine. Hub motor will always be inferior to mid-drive off-road, due to wrong weight distribution and lack of quality wheel builds.

Besides, you must realize, that throttle on an e-motor works different than on a dirtbike. Since it controls current and not gasoline flow, it operates more more like on-off, which means the current can be controlled effectively either from a controller or pedal assist.


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

I've heard good things about the mid-drive bafang (probably spelled that wrong) motors. A couple fatbike riders put them on the wallyworld fatbikes. 500W would be my absolute minimum for motor power, and everything higher than that is just icing on the cake. 

After getting a 500W+ motor, I'd focus on lightweight batteries that mount low oo the frame and not on a pannier rack. A friend has an $800 ebike off amazon with heavy nicad batteries over the rear hub. Front end weighs the same as a normal cheapo mountain bike, the back end is like a tank. Riding that thing around is a nightmare unless you're going perfectly straight.


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## Speeder500 (Oct 9, 2012)

I think the OP needs to decide on what exactly he wants. If he has a stealth bike in mind then that bike is a completely different beast. 

It will far exceed what any conversion will do in terms of performance, and you won't b e happy with anything if you have your mind set for that type of Ebike.


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## Abagrizzli (May 28, 2012)

Yes, it is spelled either Bafang or 8FUN. This guy talks about throttling the ride, so 500W unit won't be good for him. He must start at least BBS02 750W.

Batteries are always a compromise. It will be either heavy and long range, or light and little range. Also, they can be lighter, but from less steady elements, which require correct charge and discharge.


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

Speeder500 said:


> I think the OP needs to decide on what exactly he wants. If he has a stealth bike in mind then that bike is a completely different beast.


Just looked that thing up. that is not a bike. It's an electric motorcycle. trying to make that is not going to be cheap, and pretty much no current bike design would support it without costing more than the stealth.


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

> You're not looking well. There are plenty of mid-drives over 750 - BBSHD, Lightning rod, Tangent, GNG and many others, not to forget about top of the line overpriced Ego kits with 3400W engine. Hub motor will always be inferior to mid-drive off-road, due to wrong weight distribution and lack of quality wheel builds.
> 
> Besides, you must realize, that throttle on an e-motor works different than on a dirtbike. Since it controls current and not gasoline flow, it operates more more like on-off, which means the current can be controlled effectively either from a controller or pedal assist


I would definitely want a controller. I use to have a scooter without a controller, and it was very annoying. Later I purchased a Goped with a controller and it was the best upgrade. Controllable speeds are a huge plus, and are essential in my opinion.



> I've heard good things about the mid-drive bafang (probably spelled that wrong) motors. A couple fatbike riders put them on the wallyworld fatbikes. 500W would be my absolute minimum for motor power, and everything higher than that is just icing on the cake.
> 
> After getting a 500W+ motor, I'd focus on lightweight batteries that mount low oo the frame and not on a pannier rack. A friend has an $800 ebike off amazon with heavy nicad batteries over the rear hub. Front end weighs the same as a normal cheapo mountain bike, the back end is like a tank. Riding that thing around is a nightmare unless you're going perfectly straight.


That is a good idea. Having a really heavy bike will not work well, especially if it isn't balanced. I will look at that mid-drive. I don't want a 90 pound bike either, so I will look into lighter batteries.



> I think the OP needs to decide on what exactly he wants. If he has a stealth bike in mind then that bike is a completely different beast.
> 
> It will far exceed what any conversion will do in terms of performance, and you won't b e happy with anything if you have your mind set for that type of Ebike.


I would actually enjoy having a mid-drive motor as long as it goes above 20mph, and has enough power to climb a steep grade hill. I would actually enjoy being able to change the gears my electric motor is running on. It would be as if I'm the transmission!



> Yes, it is spelled either Bafang or 8FUN. This guy talks about throttling the ride, so 500W unit won't be good for him. He must start at least BBS02 750W.
> 
> Batteries are always a compromise. It will be either heavy and long range, or light and little range. Also, they can be lighter, but from less steady elements, which require correct charge and discharge.


I am good without stable batteries. I use LIPO batteries in my RC vehicles (6s lipo), so I have plenty of experience handling the unstable batteries. You are also right about throttling the ride, that is my goal.


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

watts888 said:


> Just looked that thing up. that is not a bike. It's an electric motorcycle. trying to make that is not going to be cheap, and pretty much no current bike design would support it without costing more than the stealth.


I don't think I would want a stealth. It is way too big and heavy. I would like a bike version of the stealth with toned down performance. 30MPH and good torque is enough for me. I believe this could easily be accomplished with a mid drive motor? I would put it in granny gear when going up hills to assist the motor; and a harder gear when doing top speed runs on the flat? More power out of a smaller motor? Hub motors look cool, but seem to be too basic.


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

I think I am leaning towards a complete bike. As much as it costs more, it will be set up right. I don't want to risk damaging something/hurting myself because I foolishly pointed a motor on my bike. Powerful yet cheap electric bikes (mid drive) are unfortunately quite expensive. The cheapest separate mid drive w/ battery is still over 1k from bafang


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

The batteries are nearly the most expensive part of the build and can make or break an ebike. Get as much voltage as possible: a 52v pack that's just about to run out still has enough power to move you along at a decent clip. That's not the case with 48v. 36v is obsolete in 2016. When comparing bikes find out how much replacement batteries cost, yours will die eventually and long before the mechanical bits. Plus you may want to travel with a spare or two, if not on the bike, then back in the car.....

BTW any ebike even close to being 750w legal will be hard pressed to do 30mph AND climb single track, my BBSHD with do both, but not with the same chainwheel or chain! 30t for trails and 42t for street


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

WoodlandHills said:


> The batteries are nearly the most expensive part of the build and can make or break an ebike. Get as much voltage as possible: a 52v pack that's just about to run out still has enough power to move you along at a decent clip. That's not the case with 48v. 36v is obsolete in 2016. When comparing bikes find out how much replacement batteries cost, yours will die eventually and long before the mechanical bits. Plus you may want to travel with a spare or two, if not on the bike, then back in the car.....
> 
> BTW any ebike even close to being 750w legal will be hard pressed to do 30mph AND climb single track, my BBSHD with do both, but not with the same chainwheel or chain! 30t for trails and 42t for street


I personally love the E-Bikes with the limited computer because they have a button for you to take the limit off. This gives you the opportunity to take full control of the limits of your bike.

I am looking at the Hi Power Cycles explorer, but it still seems expensive. 1500 watt mid drive with a LR 1008WH battery is about 4k. I'd imagine motor costs under 250 and battery costs under 500. Really sad how exclusive the E-Bike market is to those with plenty of cash to throw towards one. E-bike transportation would be my solution to a car for average transportation.

About the Chain ring. You can only have one in the front because of the motor? If this is the case- do you select what size depending on if you want a higher torque or higher top speed ride?


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

Just found a good price on an HPC bike. They say that top speed is 28. Don't you think a 1400 watt mid drive with a 52 volt battery would be a bit faster than 28 once in the harder gears?


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

No matter how many watts and amps you have when the motor powers the drivetrain you are restricted to the gear inches of the drive train. Want faster put on a bigger chain ring. While it is possible to up/restrict power via the controller you would need road bike size gearing to have pedal power at speeds above 28 mph.


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

Bigwheel said:


> No matter how many watts and amps you have when the motor powers the drivetrain you are restricted to the gear inches of the drive train. Want faster put on a bigger chain ring. While it is possible to up/restrict power via the controller you would need road bike size gearing to have pedal power at speeds above 28 mph.


So you would recommend increasing the size of the chain ring in the front to be able to basically be able to have 'pedal power' at a higher speed? 
Would a hub motor need to be a lot more power to have equivalent performance to a 1400 watt mid drive?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Here is a thread with a detailed cost breakdown of a BD Deadeye Monster ebike build:

Gravity Deadeye Monster + Nuvinci N360 + BBSHD = Great commuter bike - Electricbike.com Forum


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

WoodlandHills said:


> Here is a thread with a detailed cost breakdown of a BD Deadeye Monster ebike build:
> 
> Gravity Deadeye Monster + Nuvinci N360 + BBSHD = Great commuter bike - Electricbike.com Forum


Thank you WoodLandHills


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

I think that the Rohloff speed hub would be the way to go because it has 526% gear range compared to a normal shifter? In theory, would this allow for steeper hill climbing, and faster driving on the flat land? If so, is it easy to incorporate in the bike?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

You will need to buy a bike with a dropout width that matches the OAL of the hub. If your hub is 135mm, don't buy a bike with 195mm rear axle width..... Then again if you can afford a Rholoff, then buying a new bike to match your hub is no big deal. Most home built ebikes have the motor or battery each costing as much or more than the bike, it would be novel to have the hub cost more than everything else put together!


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

WoodlandHills said:


> You will need to buy a bike with a dropout width that matches the OAL of the hub. If your hub is 135mm, don't buy a bike with 195mm rear axle width..... Then again if you can afford a Rholoff, then buying a new bike to match your hub is no big deal. Most home built ebikes have the motor or battery each costing as much or more than the bike, it would be novel to have the hub cost more than everything else put together!


I just noticed how expensive they are. Unfortunately, I don't think it is worth it. It would definitely make the bike better at everything. Maybe a new front sprocket is probably my only option (unless there are any other ideas)


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## All Mtn= Fun (Jun 1, 2015)

Update: Im beginning to question wanting a mid drive. It seems easier to just get a 4500 watt hub motor w/ a 72 volt battery and be done with it. Seems much more simple than needing to change out for an internally geared hub and different sprocket ratios.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Perhaps you should go home and figure out just what you want and then go to EndlessSphere and ask them. At this point you are talking about an electric motocrosser not an ebike and the discussion really belongs elsewhere. Once you get it built you are not legal to ride anywhere but with the 2-strokes and the bike itself will have almost no actual bicycle parts on it.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

All Mtn= Fun said:


> So you would recommend increasing the size of the chain ring in the front to be able to basically be able to have 'pedal power' at a higher speed?
> Would a hub motor need to be a lot more power to have equivalent performance to a 1400 watt mid drive?


It works best, for me at least, to be able to have pedal power at all times to stay with or on top of the motor. If the motor is run through the drivetrain it won't propel the bike any faster than the sprockets it is attached to will allow either. There are ways to calculate this using gear inches and wheel diameter. Then you have rider weight, bike weight, terrain and wind resistance to factor in. There are 1000w hub motors that can do 30 on 52v on the market but only on flatish ground. The big thing is that bicycle rated equipment isn't really based on that type of speed especially with the added weight of the e system.

This type of bike is developing in some sectors that should be able to hold up but it is a MoPed class which has different rules of the road than ebikes: Bultaco sends its electric "moto-bikes" to the streets


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