# MTBR blocking Magishine?



## ggnarl (Mar 13, 2008)

Why are there no pro reviews on the light shootout of the magicshine p7? They are not listed as a company on the review forum either. Isnt the internet supposed to be an open forum? I am led to assume that the other light manufacturers are objecting to magicshine due to their low price/high output.

I'm pretty disappointed that a website like MTBR would do such a thing.


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## big-ted (Oct 16, 2005)

Take off the foil hat man. Pro reviews rely on product being sent out/offered for review. Magicshine being made by a fairly generic Chinese electronics corp probably makes that difficult. I'm sure customer reviews will be available soon. In the meantime, plenty of feedback/comments on this forum. What more do you need?


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

Products generally don't show in the review section unless someone asks the admins. The admins don't spend their time looking for things to add. 
From the reviews page:


> Don't See a Certain Product on Our Site?
> Suggest a product via email: [email protected]


Why not ask now?


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## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

ggnarl said:


> Isnt the internet supposed to be an open forum?


NO!

I can't believe people think this way.

This site is no different than a physical piece of property. What happens here is solely
at the discretion of the owners of the site.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

That light hasn't even been a serious player on the market for but a couple of months anyway. Give them some time. Plus what difference does it make, there are better unbiased reviews in the forums than some of the other stuff that's posted in the "Pro Reviews"


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## ggnarl (Mar 13, 2008)

This light has been available at least since last may, you would think it would be at least listed in the reviews portion of mtbr.
I just sent an email to [email protected], we'll see if they add it.


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## M.r.davies (Oct 3, 2009)

You have to remember that sites like these get the bills paid from sponsors of ads etc,

websites don't run themselves!!!


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## El34 (Jan 11, 2009)

there are tons of users comment on this light on the DIY lights forum

You can get any sort of review you want (+ or -) from reading those comments.

BTW, this is not a real Light company like Niterider, Light & Motion or Lupine.
It's a Chinese Knockoff company.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Check out the adds on this page. A whole bunch of those lights aren't in the review.

You are welcome to do your own review of any lights at any time too.

There are plenty of reviews out there on the magicshine.


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## ggnarl (Mar 13, 2008)

So basically MTBR is blocking these Chinese companies because there is no profit in it for them. How long do you folks think niterider etc are going to stay in business charging upwards of 400$ for a light that will be obsolete in a year? I bought a digital headtrip way back in 1999 for 200$, and it was pretty much state of the art. Lithium bateries are cheaper than nicad nowadays, LED emiters are cheaper than bulbs, even the chargers are less expensive. Even with inflation 200$ is no where near 499$ for an equivalent light setup. They seem to think they can charge by the lumen, which is bulldoo doo. Do computer companies charge by the megahz? no they introduce better faster computers every year for the same price if not cheaper. Where do these companies get off charging so much? Why cant they ask a reasonable price so we can justify the purchase? They all get most of their components from china anyway, shoot the whole shebang is probably made there, so don't think not buying from them is costing us jobs. A 400$ dollar savings offsets the value of a whole lot of customer service. MTBR not allowing competitive companies to have their products showcased on their site hurts all of us in the end.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

ggnarl said:


> So basically MTBR is blocking these Chinese companies ...


Did you read any of the responses in this thread?


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

znomit said:


> Did you read any of the responses in this thread?


Exactly. If they were blocking magicshine then you probably wouldn't see tons of posts about them or see Geoman posting about them or see the links in Geoman's sig, etc.

The review section can be a joke anyway with widely popular brand name products, such as Fox forks, that only have 2 reviews or even none. And like I said earlier: the admins have a email address posted for submitting products for the review section. Have you tried it yet?


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

The others on the Review pay to get a review and likely varying amounts depending on how relatively glowing the review is, Magicshine have no need to advertise there likely selling more than they can make or close to anyway, making very little of each unit though, where as a Lupine Tesla nearly identical likely won't cost that much more to make, bigger profit = more money to spend on advertising the reviews.


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## KingOfTheHill (Sep 19, 2007)

ggnarl said:


> So basically MTBR is blocking these Chinese companies because there is no profit in it for them. How long do you folks think niterider etc are going to stay in business charging upwards of 400$ for a light that will be obsolete in a year? I bought a digital headtrip way back in 1999 for 200$, and it was pretty much state of the art. Lithium bateries are cheaper than nicad nowadays, LED emiters are cheaper than bulbs, even the chargers are less expensive. Even with inflation 200$ is no where near 499$ for an equivalent light setup. They seem to think they can charge by the lumen, which is bulldoo doo. Do computer companies charge by the megahz? no they introduce better faster computers every year for the same price if not cheaper. Where do these companies get off charging so much? Why cant they ask a reasonable price so we can justify the purchase? They all get most of their components from china anyway, shoot the whole shebang is probably made there, so don't think not buying from them is costing us jobs. A 400$ dollar savings offsets the value of a whole lot of customer service. MTBR not allowing competitive companies to have their products showcased on their site hurts all of us in the end.


It's capitalism, and engineering expenses are much higher for the better lights that are out there. There are many threads about your same complaints, but lights such as Niterider cost more to develop - they're a US company with US employees, and US wages are higher than those in China.

I can justify buying a $500 Dinotte setup or a $$(insert any other brand name) setup because they are better. Argue as you will, a Lupine, Dinotte, Niterider, Cygolite, etc. are better built lights than the Magicshine.

Don't misunderstand what I am saying to mean I don't think there is a place for the MS. The MS has been a great thing that has made a bright, inexpensive, decent light available to many. I don't own one yet, but have a couple on order from Geo. They will not, however, replace my Dinottes. The MS is a step in the right direction but can not complete with the big boys of the lighting industry yet - how are they going to break into the the macro bike shops like Performance, REI, etc? Once they do that, then yes, the MS will have arrived.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

why doesn't Geoman send them a light?

J.


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## M.r.davies (Oct 3, 2009)

KingOfTheHill said:


> It's capitalism, and engineering expenses are much higher for the better lights that are out there. There are many threads about your same complaints, but lights such as Niterider cost more to develop - they're a US company with US employees, and US wages are higher than those in China.
> 
> I can justify buying a $500 Dinotte setup or a $$(insert any other brand name) setup because they are better. Argue as you will, a Lupine, Dinotte, Niterider, Cygolite, etc. are better built lights than the Magicshine.
> 
> Don't misunderstand what I am saying to mean I don't think there is a place for the MS. The MS has been a great thing that has made a bright, inexpensive, decent light available to many. I don't own one yet, but have a couple on order from Geo. They will not, however, replace my Dinottes. The MS is a step in the right direction but can not complete with the big boys of the lighting industry yet - how are they going to break into the the macro bike shops like Performance, REI, etc? Once they do that, then yes, the MS will have arrived.


Well said, 
its just business, and big companies have R&D, track record and warrenty which is why magic shine stuff probably wont be as durable.

but that said, i'm still going to chance it and buy a magic shine,
for those prices and the way tech is moving, its silly to spend big money in my opinion

Hopefully next year we'll see a lot of the newer XP-G tech for magic shine prices

(FYI, i'm new to all this and just going on what i've read on various forums about XP-G)


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

None of these are big companies - none of them.

Where Magicshine is most likely going to have problems is in long term reliability. You test that thermal shock cycles coupled with vibration. Both of which are found in the usage of these devices.

J.


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## KingOfTheHill (Sep 19, 2007)

JohnJ80 said:


> None of these are big companies - none of them.
> 
> Where Magicshine is most likely going to have problems is in long term reliability. You test that thermal shock cycles coupled with vibration. Both of which are found in the usage of these devices.
> 
> J.


No, they are not BIG companies. They are, however, the big boys in the bike lighting world. They are the mass produced light manufacturers that have withstood the test of time, complaints and all. Yes, there are others I haven't mentioned such as L&M, etc.

I agree with you about the long term reliability of the MS - it will probably have problems down the road although I can't yet speak from experience (hurry up and get the next batch of MS's Geo!). I base my comment on what I have read about them. For the price though, they really are disposable lights and getting a season out of them is getting your money's worth.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Turveyd said:


> The others on the Review pay to get a review and likely varying amounts depending on how relatively glowing the review is,


Turvey could you please tell us how much you have to pay to get a review. Is there a pricelist or are you just making this up?

Have a good look at the comparisons, there are companies there that don't advertise with MTBR.

Check out some of the comparison beamshots. They likely don't want their 900lm beamshot next to the 400lm competition.

Personally, I wouldn't add a formal review for any product with a 3 month warranty.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

One of the reasons Magicshine is so inexpensive is because they DONT have an advertising budget. One of the biggest advantages of LEDs is that they are touted as being much more reliable than their halogen equivalents. More resistant to vibration, and longer service life. In other words, a more reliable product, regardless of who makes it. I keep seeing tons of people who have higher end lights talking about reliability, but not too many MS owners complaining about unreliability. For the price the light seems hard to beat, and I may just pick one up for myself as soon as they start including a helmet mount. Considering how quickly things are evolving, if you get a couple of years of use out of it, it will definitely have paid for itself.


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## chiznitz (Aug 15, 2007)

Jim you can get a helmet mount now on geoman's site.

I'm a big fan of the magicshine. I just used two of them for 24 hours of moab and ran them on high for my laps then plugged them in afterwards at the charging station. It was a great feeling passing people without enough light out there on the trail.

I also heard one of the pro's had light issues that dropped him off the podium..pretty sure he was using a sponsored name brand rather than the trusty magicshine's.

Passed a few other people that were having light issues as well.

So far my magicshine's have been used for 12 hours of downhill at telluride and 24 hours of moab. They have worked flawlessly 


for the OP's question...if you already have the blingy expensive light I would keep it and add a magicshine...if you don't have it...by 3 magicshine's and a y cable. Run 2 on the bars and one on the helmet, you will not be disappointed.


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## Tim_ (Jun 15, 2006)

I too was surprised to discover that there were no reviews of this light on here. I didn't let that stop me though since there were plenty of reviews available online.

I just ordered 2 of these last week, and according to GM, I should have them by next week.

This is the image that sold me.










BTW, this website is fantastic for comparing lights, side by side:
http://fonarevka.lux-rc.com/


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Hello all,

Frankly, we're very excited at the response we've had by adding the Magicshine to our bike lighting options.

Up until now, we were faced with question after question from potential customers who could not or would not pay $300 - $900 for lights - for a variety of reasons. We've been asked to "fudge" invoices so wives don't catch on to the high cost. One asked me to move the decimal point one point left. LOL. 

Our goal is "a light on every bike". We seem to be making some headway. Admittedly, the Magicshine isn't a Lupine. But, it serves many beyond their desires or needs. They have seen many 24 hour races and other equally grueling rides across the country - everywhere - and seem to be up to the task. 

On the flipside, the Lupines we offer are selling very well too. There seems to be a broad breadth of desires in lighting. Until now, price seemed to be the biggest obstacle for many. We hope to have solved that problem... 

Thanks for your support. We sincerely appreciate it.

Geo


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Tim_ said:


> I too was surprised to discover that there were no reviews of this light on here. I didn't let that stop me though since there were plenty of reviews available online.
> 
> I just ordered 2 of these last week, and according to GM, I should have them by next week.
> 
> ...


Is that a bunnie in the middle of the trail that you are using you phazer on?

He's dead... Jim
dundun da...................(background music)

I want a Magicshine as I have bunnies too in the middle of my trails!


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## bknut (Feb 6, 2009)

I know that I will be ordering a magic shine within the next week.For the price, it would be crazy not to. I've got friends that ride with flashlights strapped onto their bars and helmet. If this light performs as well as many say it has, then our evening ride will have many more guys with more than adequate lighting. Can't wait to try it out.


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## Evo. (Feb 3, 2009)

*Pleased with my MS lights!*

I was extremely skeptical on getting the MS because it was so cheap and such a new light with minimal feedback.

I received my lights (I ordered two) from Geoman about 2 weeks ago. When they first arrived, I must say I was very impressed at the quality of the lights.

One thing I do not like is the battery pack and how it mounts on the frame, it is not as convenient as other mounts. The battery pack for the helmet goes in my Camelbak, so it is not a concern.










In the trail the lights worked perfectly, I rode for about 2 ½ hours and my batteries were still green. The last time I was out it was a sloppy mess and started to pour, I continued to ride and had zero issues with the lights.

For me, one MS would not be enough. I use one on my helmet and one on my bars.

I think the helmet mount works great and I have no complaints about it.




























I am pleased thus far. Only time will tell now! :thumbsup:


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## chiznitz (Aug 15, 2007)

Not sure what you don't like about the battery pack. I have a light & motion light and I find the magicshine mount to be as good if not better. I just wrap the velco around my stem and the battery hangs underneath the stem. I then use a velco cable strap that uses the 2 plastic ovals on the battery pack to hold down the excess cable. 


It didnt' move at all even when I went over the handlebars


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## jkirkpatri (Sep 16, 2008)

I now have six Magicshines - three lights per bike, the wife's bike and mine. Could not be happier. For the money, I am very happy with results (think freight train on single track).


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## Evo. (Feb 3, 2009)

chiznitz said:


> Not sure what you don't like about the battery pack. I have a light & motion light and I find the magicshine mount to be as good if not better. I just wrap the velco around my stem and the battery hangs underneath the stem. I then use a velco cable strap that uses the 2 plastic ovals on the battery pack to hold down the excess cable.
> 
> It didnt' move at all even when I went over the handlebars


I just need to spend more time figuring out a better mounting solution for mine. Maybe I will try Velcro as you describe.


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## siwilliams (Jul 23, 2009)

chiznitz said:


> Not sure what you don't like about the battery pack. I have a light & motion light and I find the magicshine mount to be as good if not better. I just wrap the velco around my stem and the battery hangs underneath the stem. I then use a velco cable strap that uses the 2 plastic ovals on the battery pack to hold down the excess cable.
> 
> It didnt' move at all even when I went over the handlebars


I use this same method except I place a strip of foam rubber between the battery pack and the stem to prevent the battery vibrating against the stem.


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## alanmushnick (Oct 14, 2009)

*why is it so cheap?*

I wonder how reliable this light really is? How can it be so much less money than similarly powered brand name lights?
Has anyone had one fail yet? What was the reason?
thanks
Alan


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## rottenron (May 14, 2009)

I bought 14 of these lights for myself and friends. All are working great. It's a fantastic light. Bright, tough, well built, NOT EXPENSIVE. They'll burn for over 3 hours on high. I've owned a half dozen lights over the last 25 years of biking and these are my favourite by far. For those concerned about shipping times, I ordered 14 lights from DX and had them in my hands in 7 days. Keep in mind that the lights you order from DX and the lights you get from GEOMAN are a bit different now. GEOMAN lights come with a longer cable and 5 modes (High, Med, Low, Flashing, SOS). The DX lights still have the same short cable and 3 modes (High, Med, Flashing). 

Ron


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## VaskaS (Aug 19, 2009)

alanmushnick said:


> I wonder how reliable this light really is? How can it be so much less money than similarly powered brand name lights?
> Has anyone had one fail yet? What was the reason?
> thanks
> Alan


List of complaints taken from Russian MTB site:
1. The most frequent is disbalance of elements within the battery that decrease burn time. Can be fixed by discharging them separately to equal level via the punctures in the cover.
2. A lot of complaints on interference with cordless devices like HRM, GPS etc. Can be fixed by moving devices apart.
3. Several complaints about lacking screws, non-accurate assembling, alu filings iside. Fixed by reassembling and cleaning.
4. Two burnt chargers.

All the lights from DX.


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## ggnarl (Mar 13, 2008)

I am not current on all these new led lights, but after owning a nightrider digital halogen for many years I gotta say it was not without problems. First it overcharged the battery if it wasnt completely discharged, multiple bulb failures, the control board inside the light failed, etc. It seems that all these 500 dollar lights are owned by people who are lazy to do research, think throwing money at a problem will fix it, and are unwilling to learn/ unskilled at fixing things themselves.The whole DIY thing to me was cost prohibitive and too labor intensive to be worth it. Not that I couldnt do it, it just seemed too much trouble to order all the stuff, solder, experiment etc. I did build up a new battery for my light 6 years ago for 25$ that had double the capacity of my original one and cost more than 50% less than the OEM replacement one. 

To get back to the thread topic I think that by not recognizing these manufacturers of low cost lights MTBR is doing its members a huge disservice to the people who don't delve deeper into all the possibilities out there. By not including magicshine in the review section they are really doing all they can to squeeze out the little guy. This stiffles competition, and keeps MS's sales volume down and helps larger manufacturers continue to ask 500$ for a 400 lumen light. Or 175$ for a 150 lumen light.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

ggnarl said:


> I am not current on all these new led lights, but after owning a nightrider digital halogen for many years I gotta say it was not without problems. First it overcharged the battery if it wasnt completely discharged, multiple bulb failures, the control board inside the light failed, etc. It seems that all these 500 dollar lights are owned by people who are lazy to do research, think throwing money at a problem will fix it, and are unwilling to learn/ unskilled at fixing things themselves.The whole DIY thing to me was cost prohibitive and too labor intensive to be worth it. Not that I couldnt do it, it just seemed too much trouble to order all the stuff, solder, experiment etc. I did build up a new battery for my light 6 years ago for 25$ that had double the capacity of my original one and cost more than 50% less than the OEM replacement one.
> 
> *To get back to the thread topic I think that by not recognizing these manufacturers of low cost lights MTBR is doing its members a huge disservice to the people who don't delve deeper into all the possibilities out there. By not including magicshine in the review section they are really doing all they can to squeeze out the little guy. This stiffles competition, and keeps MS's sales volume down and helps larger manufacturers continue to ask 500$ for a 400 lumen light. Or 175$ for a 150 lumen light*.


Exactly.

I doubt that MTBR is intentionally doing this, it's more a case of not taking them seriously enough to review them. There is no real "technology" in these things.  PWM circuits are simple and the LED technology is driven by the LED guys. So the price is going to go down and there are few barriers to entry for a new guy to come in. The faster we get this all sorted out and the leaders emerge, the better off for everyone.

That said, the price on most of these lights is high because the volume is low, it's a niche specialty market, and because some of these companies are artificially trying (hoping) to hold the price up and keep their margins fat for a while more.

MTBR needs to pay attention to these lights and see what makes them tick.

J.

Either way, it contributes to the outcome of


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## VaskaS (Aug 19, 2009)

ggnarl said:


> This stiffles competition, and keeps MS's sales volume down and helps larger manufacturers continue to ask 500$ for a 400 lumen light. Or 175$ for a 150 lumen light.


Now look what I think about what you call "competition":
I'm a headlamp manufaturer from Russia, and I started with this business approx four years and a half ago. For some period of time I only spent money because prototype usually cost much more than stock-produced item, and moreover if you want to make a good product you test your prototypes up to full destruction. And when I found out that the prototype is worth manufacturing, it was after six months of prior activity with no income, just financial losses including industrial amounts of purchaised componentary that didn't fit final design. Imagine what a shock it was for me when four months later somebody began offering almost full clone of my light for 75% of my price. Can you call this "a competition" when a guy just diassembles your product to steal your ideas and know-how to get ahead of you with minimum outlay?
The same thing with MS - simplified clone of Lupine.
Those high prices of "larger manufacturers" include research, advertisement, sponsorship. All those banners framing this page mean money supporting this site, and where is MS banner? Magicshine's price includes nothing exept Chinese slave labour plus componentary.


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## bikerjay (Sep 16, 2007)

Seriously there are many reviews of MS on MTBR, I would hardly call that blocking, what do you want MTBR to do give free banner ads to every upstart company out there. If some one sent MTBR a light for a PRO review and they sent it back and refused the review that would be a block. I am just not seeing what your talking about at all. 

Stuff I am seeing...
I really like the fake CE logo on a lot of the Chinese electronics out there, I am sure its meant to mean China Export......... I see a great market emerging for ANSI, Asian National Science Institute tested helmets. I am sure people will just jump at the chance to try them.....


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

No, but I would like to see them included in the light shoot out.

J.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

JohnJ80 said:


> No, but I would like to see them included in the light shoot out.
> 
> J.


Have you tried email them and asking them to do just that?

The DX lights showed up in late May and Geoman just started shipping his at the end of June. In that same time there have only been two "pro" reviews by the MTBR folks. More importantly, the last light shootout was in December of last year before these even existed


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

VaskaS said:


> Now look what I think about what you call "competition":
> I'm a headlamp manufaturer from Russia, and I started with this business approx four years and a half ago. For some period of time I only spent money because prototype usually cost much more than stock-produced item, and moreover if you want to make a good product you test your prototypes up to full destruction. And when I found out that the prototype is worth manufacturing, it was after six months of prior activity with no income, just financial losses including industrial amounts of purchaised componentary that didn't fit final design. Imagine what a shock it was for me when four months later somebody began offering almost full clone of my light for 75% of my price. Can you call this "a competition" when a guy just diassembles your product to steal your ideas and know-how to get ahead of you with minimum outlay?
> The same thing with MS - simplified clone of Lupine.
> Those high prices of "larger manufacturers" include research, advertisement, sponsorship. All those banners framing this page mean money supporting this site, and where is MS banner? Magicshine's price includes nothing exept Chinese slave labour plus componentary.


The Chinese have no respect for copyright/patents/etc..they are swine.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

boomn said:


> Have you tried email them and asking them to do just that?
> 
> The DX lights showed up in late May and Geoman just started shipping his at the end of June. In that same time there have only been two "pro" reviews by the MTBR folks. More importantly, the last light shootout was in December of last year before these even existed


I would think that would be a good project for Geoman to work on. Should be to his benefit as well.

J.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

VaskaS said:


> Now look what I think about what you call "competition":
> I'm a headlamp manufaturer from Russia, and I started with this business approx four years and a half ago. For some period of time I only spent money because prototype usually cost much more than stock-produced item, and moreover if you want to make a good product you test your prototypes up to full destruction. And when I found out that the prototype is worth manufacturing, it was after six months of prior activity with no income, just financial losses including industrial amounts of purchaised componentary that didn't fit final design. Imagine what a shock it was for me when four months later somebody began offering almost full clone of my light for 75% of my price. Can you call this "a competition" when a guy just diassembles your product to steal your ideas and know-how to get ahead of you with minimum outlay?
> The same thing with MS - simplified clone of Lupine.
> Those high prices of "larger manufacturers" include research, advertisement, sponsorship. All those banners framing this page mean money supporting this site, and where is MS banner? Magicshine's price includes nothing exept Chinese slave labour plus componentary.


I should start off by saying that I respect your endeavor to research and build something that is such a niche market oriented product, and I love supporting the little guy if I can.

However, I fail to see how MS has stolen anybody's design. It seems to me that the people who did the research are the people who built the emitters. Those who build the light heads are using batteries and emitters that someone else produces, and then building their own light head. What is there to steal or copy? Can you fault them for bringing a product that performs as good as something 5 times the price and yet costs a fifth of the competition? It may suck for other manufacturers, but as a consumer I fail to see a downside. When it comes to electronics technology is evolving FAST and as soon as you put something out it's practically obsolete. Which, by the way, is yet another reason people are snatching these MS lights up. Why pay 500 dollars for something that will be outdated so quickly? The times of building and researching a product for years is over. You have to get things done FAST to compete these days. I don't see these low budget lights stealing business from anybody. I think the people buying them probably wouldn't have bought anything at all because the other options for 100 bucks are crappy. Anyway, sorry for my tirade.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Jim311 said:


> I should start off by saying that I respect your endeavor to research and build something that is such a niche market oriented product, and I love supporting the little guy if I can.
> 
> However, I fail to see how MS has stolen anybody's design. It seems to me that the people who did the research are the people who built the emitters. Those who build the light heads are using batteries and emitters that someone else produces, and then building their own light head. What is there to steal or copy? Can you fault them for bringing a product that performs as good as something 5 times the price and yet costs a fifth of the competition? It may suck for other manufacturers, but as a consumer I fail to see a downside. When it comes to electronics technology is evolving FAST and as soon as you put something out it's practically obsolete. Which, by the way, is yet another reason people are snatching these MS lights up. Why pay 500 dollars for something that will be outdated so quickly? The times of building and researching a product for years is over. You have to get things done FAST to compete these days. I don't see these low budget lights stealing business from anybody. I think the people buying them probably wouldn't have bought anything at all because the other options for 100 bucks are crappy. Anyway, sorry for my tirade.


I agree with some of what you say, but saying that there is nothing to copy because they all have to use the same emitters and the same batteries is exactly like saying that you can't copyright written material because all the words in the book are all in the dictionary and there is nothing unique about the way they are arranged. In the circuit design world, this disrespects the intellectual property that is well recognized as worthy of protection under patent and copyright law. Whether this is a rip off in this case - hard to say and I don't have enough information.

If a product is ripped off - even if it is look or feel - then that is R&D that doesn't have to be done and is big cost saved. Saying that getting a product like that is "good for consumers" is like saying that a bank robber who gives someone on the street $10 is good for the community. It works only in the short term until people quit putting their money in banks because they aren't safe or when engineers quit designing stuff because the return isn't worth the effort after being ripped off. The unfortunate part of a rip off in international cases like this is that there is no way to stop it if the government of the rip off artist won't put the brakes on it. This is the problem with China right now. Ask the movie companies and Microsoft for data on that one.

NONE of these lighting companies are big companies. They are all largely small operations run by the founders. The prices are high because the volumes are low. No one is selling hundreds of thousands of $500 lights or even $100 lights. Just doesn't happen.

That all said, if the engineering is done fair and square and the price is down there, then I say more power to the designers and mfgs - that IS good for the consumer. I don't know if it is in the case of these lights, but assuming it is, then it is going to be a sure fire big downward pressure on light premiums. The guys with the most to lose are people like Lupine that have been getting a hefty premium for their products - it is that premium that is at risk.

J.


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