# Moab Rim Chairlift: Done



## hfly (Dec 30, 2003)

Reliable word is out that the Moab Rim Chairlift and "Freeride Park" has been purchased by the Nature Conservancy. The chairlft will be dismantled and the area restored.

This is a _good_ thing in my opinion, and (counterintuitively) in the opinion of many other local riders here.

hfly


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Thank god. I was never able to get out to see this 'advancement' of riding. Who had the authority (smart idea) to put it in anyways? City? Count? Fed's?


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## SweatyYeti (Jun 12, 2004)

Is this the chair lift along Kane Creek Road or the one on the north side of town?


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Since it went up a "crack" in the canyon/rim, you really couldn't see the chairlift from far away/town, etc...

It was unique and I'm glad that I got to ride it (with lance canfield  )


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## bulC (Mar 12, 2004)

*you don't need a lift to ride it*



Jm. said:


> Since it went up a "crack" in the canyon/rim, you really couldn't see the chairlift from far away/town, etc...
> 
> It was unique and I'm glad that I got to ride it (with lance canfield  )


I've ridden the Moab Rim -- up and down again, probably a dozen times. On rigid steel hardtails. Once with Hank Barlow, who cleaned it on his rigid Salsa. Also was once up there when some texass idiots in a jeep rolled over and fell a looong way down to the road. Beer cans littered the area where they landed.


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## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

Sounds like a good thing restoring the area to me. Despite being a shuttle weenie myself it's cool to see a place like Moab restoring the area for future riders.


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## Bob the Wheelbuilder (Sep 21, 2003)

SweatyYeti said:


> Is this the chair lift along Kane Creek Road or the one on the north side of town?


Kane Creek Road passes under the Moab Rim. The Portal Trail is on the north side of the river and the Moab Rim Trail is on the south side, both are downstream from Moab. The lift seemed out of place to me, I never rode it and won't miss it.

I hope riding will still be allowed. I climbed the rim and went down hidden something (?Canyon ?Valley) once. Sure didn't clean it. That's a tough climb. I hear that back in the day there was a hillclimb competition on it.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

bulC said:


> I've ridden the Moab Rim -- up and down again, probably a dozen times. On rigid steel hardtails. Once with Hank Barlow, who cleaned it on his rigid Salsa. Also was once up there when some texass idiots in a jeep rolled over and fell a looong way down to the road. Beer cans littered the area where they landed.


 Given what you claimed below, http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=64631&highlight=porcupine ,about Porc Rim, I can imagine Moab rim, despite the steepness ought to be trivial for you. BTW, How does the bike being made of steel make a difference?



bulC said:


> I've ridden every ride in an around Moab many times, including a couple of secret singletracks only the locals know.
> I started riding there 20 years ago, not a lot of full suspension bikes back then.
> When I go there these days I ride a Merlin hardtail with a rigid AccuTrax fork and fat tires, and do fine. I ride the speed the terrain requires, simple as that. That means when desceing some of the ledges on Amasa Back or Porcupine, I go more slowly than some dweebe with a massive travel f/s bike. I seldom have to dab, let alone walk.
> The ledges coming down from the overlooks on Porcupine are not that dramatic. Let's put it this way: I usually ride that loop in reverse, so I can then ride down sandy Sand Flats Road instead of shooting my load early climbing the sucker. I have cleaned every inch of Porcupine, on a full rigid bike, if I can climb those socalled ledges using just good body english and leg power, there should be little to be concerned about coming down them.
> I think the Best Bike for the slickrock loops is a rigid hardtail, as the limitations of traction and power are best addressed by a frame that gets the power to the wheel, and a fork that doesn't twist and flex and mess with front wheel traction on the steep sidehills.


 It's interesting to read the tone of your response and the tone of hfly's response, given you are both saying similiar things.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

bulC is a faqing idiot that likes to make up big stories about himself. The guy is living in a dream world. But you knew that already.

{edit: Calling bulC a "faqing idiot" and implying that he is a liar was out of line, and for that I apologize. I will stand by my statement that he comes across as an arrogant d!ckhead.}


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## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

Sad to see it go. There were some nice ladder drops there. It gave you something else to do and it was progressive. Moab is (was) the MTB mecca. It should have options for all types of riders not just intermediate XC trails.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

bulC said:


> I've ridden the Moab Rim -- up and down again, probably a dozen times. On rigid steel hardtails. Once with Hank Barlow, who cleaned it on his rigid Salsa. Also was once up there when some texass idiots in a jeep rolled over and fell a looong way down to the road. Beer cans littered the area where they landed.


So I take it you were doing 8 foot drops on the rigid hardtail?

There's huge stunts up there, tons of fun, and stuff I doubt anyone would ever attempt on rigid bike.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Evel Knievel said:


> ...Moab is (was) the MTB mecca. It should have options for all types of riders not just intermediate XC trails.


LOL, you just aren't going to the right places.


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## bulC (Mar 12, 2004)

*response*

Moab Rim is much more technically difficult. The ledges are much larger, the overall grade much steeper. I never cleaned the Moab Rim going up.
The time I rode it with Barlow I was wearing a heart monitor set to beep at 170 bpm. It was still going off a good 5 minutes after I reached the top, much to Hank's amusement.
I mentioned steel hardtails because every time I rode it, to the best of my recollection, I was on one. Test bikes. A Jamis Dakar, back when it had a U brake under the chainstays, stands out as a great bike, at least on that ride, on that day. Beyond that, no significance. Why? You prefer aluminum or something and bristle at the mention of steel rigid bikes? Odd that you would even comment on it, you must have a vendetta going in your mind against Columbus, Tange, etc.


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## bulC (Mar 12, 2004)

*or*



radair said:


> bulC is a faqing idiot that likes to make up big stories about himself. The guy is living in a dream world. But you knew that already.


Or, every word I write is the truth, and you are just measuring others by your own limited experience.
I have many more good cycling stories that I'm sure you would not believe, so I won't waste my time regaling you with them. Your loss.


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## bulC (Mar 12, 2004)

*no*



Jm. said:


> So I take it you were doing 8 foot drops on the rigid hardtail?
> 
> There's huge stunts up there, tons of fun, and stuff I doubt anyone would ever attempt on rigid bike.


Of course not. The route I rode, as shown me by Hank, had a few 2' drops -- or ledges if you were going up -- and a bunch that were more like a foot or a little more. I don't know what route the freeride idiots have laid out, I'm sure if you went seeking bigger drops up there, you could easily find ones that would be impossible to ride safely on a rigid bike. As I recall we started out near the cliff side, then part way up headed more inward away from the cliffside to contiune up to the top. Hank was an excellent guy to ride with in Moab. He showed me some rides that I don't think many nonlocals ever see. Alternate routes on Poison Spider Mesa, and on Gold Bar Rim, among others. And a cool singletrack (!) down off of Amasa Back, not the usual way down, and I'm not talking about Jacob's Ladder, a real, honesttogosh ridable singletrack that doesn't require 8" of travel and a lobotomy.


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## bulC (Mar 12, 2004)

*you are correct sir*



Bob the Wheelbuilder said:


> Kane Creek Road passes under the Moab Rim. The Portal Trail is on the north side of the river and the Moab Rim Trail is on the south side, both are downstream from Moab. The lift seemed out of place to me, I never rode it and won't miss it.
> 
> I hope riding will still be allowed. I climbed the rim and went down hidden something (?Canyon ?Valley) once. Sure didn't clean it. That's a tough climb. I hear that back in the day there was a hillclimb competition on it.


Hidden Valley I believe it is called. Part of Back of Behind. And yes, a hillclimb competition used to be held on the Moab Rim as part of the Halloween festivities. One year back in the 80s it was raining pretty hard during it, as I recall. You also seemed to figure out the route up the Rim that does not encounter the eight foot ledges mentioned by some idiot here as proof that I must be full of crap and that riding the Moab Rim is obviously impossible without mega suspension, since the poster never did so. Thank you for the confirmation.


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

Never ridden it either, so I won't miss it. Actually, I have yet to ride the Moab Rim, and right now I don't think I'd take my main steed on that trail, I think I'd bust a lung. I'd have to get the ol' gears out for that one.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

bulC said:


> Of course not. The route I rode, as shown me by Hank, had a few 2' drops -- or ledges if you were going up .


lol...as other's have said, you don't know your a$$ from a hole in the ground, since you obviously don't know about the tons of freeriding up there....

Depending on how much "side stuff" you ride on when you ride the downhill course, it's not easy to do at any speed, and when you know about the "other stuff", it becomes an ultra-fun hill. I'm suprised your moab-god a$$ doesn't know about these things..

I guess when I was 8 feet in the air it was an illusion, as well as the guy that got hurt doing a 2-stage dropoff, funny, the blood looked real.

I think you're simply talking out your a$$ about how you rode up the pu$$y route and trying to make it seem like there's nothing up there simply because YOU weren't shown it...


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

Jm. said:


> since you obviously don't know about the tons of freeriding up there....


I'm sure he knows, but he probably was pointing out the fact that the original line was not the big drops. If one still wanted to ride the big drops, it's just means that they will be required to ride up (probably using the original line). That is, if they keep all the freeride stuff open.

I may not like bulC's attitude, but that doesn't mean I think he's a _complete_ wacko. Actually, I'm betting that he and I have ridden with some mutual acquaintances.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

I have no doubt that bulC has ridden and done what he says he has.
It sounds like you use routes he is not familiar with and vice versa. Does not mean either route(s) is better than the other. I like routes that are technical but do not _require_ a big-hit bike to even attempt. Does not make them "pu$$y" routes. The bike does make a difference in what kind of terrain can be "ultra-fun".
Choices, man, choices.

BTW do any of you young'uns even know who Hank Barlow is? (yes, I know.)


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

shiggy said:


> Does not make them "pu$$y" routes.


Right. It makes them the rigid hardtail routes.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

bulC said:


> Or, every word I write is the truth, and you are just measuring others by your own limited experience. I have many more good cycling stories that I'm sure you would not believe, so I won't waste my time regaling you with them. Your loss.


Maybe every word is the truth, to be honest I was trolling. You've always come across as an arrogant d!ckhead, so you are a good target.

I don't measure anybody by my experiences, limited or not (it's all relative).


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Jm. said:


> Right. It makes them the rigid hardtail routes.


Or the "classic" routes.

So, do you know who Hank Barlow is?


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

shiggy said:


> So, do you know who Hank Barlow is?


Why should I care?

Do you know who (insert god-local here) is?

Yippie do da...


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## Bob the Wheelbuilder (Sep 21, 2003)

shiggy said:


> Or the "classic" routes.
> 
> So, do you know who Hank Barlow is?


I didn't, now I do. Here's a cool essay of his on "riding softly" from the imba website.

http://www.imba.com/resources/bike_management/art.html


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Barlow is more than a "god-local". Though I would not call him a "god' of any sort.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Bob the Wheelbuilder said:


> I didn't, now I do. Here's a cool essay of his on "riding softly" from the imba website.
> 
> http://www.imba.com/resources/bike_management/art.html


He is know for something else, too. The byline is a clue.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

shiggy said:


> Barlow is more than a "god-local". Though I would not call him a "god' of any sort.


Like I said, what do I care? I've been riding for 15 years, do you honestly think there was anything in his "article" that I didn't already know?


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## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

*I won't miss it, altho I might have tried it*

had I known about it when it was operating (I went by a coupla times when it was already closed I guess). Moab doesn't need it in any case. While lifts and shuttles are fine in their place, they're not necessary to enjoy a mountain bike in the area, whether suspended or not, geared or not. I did try and ride up the Moab Rim once on a rather warm day and admit I didn't go too far before saying screw this, but someday I'll complete it, probably with plenty of dabbing. I'll still have plenty of fun there one way or the other.

I think sweatyyeti might have been referring to the lift you see from the highway just north of town near the water park. If I remember correctly that just brought people up to a viewpoint and I don't think it accommodated bikes?

Lift riding on private property is probably the only way it's going to stay around (Snow Summit/Big Bear a recent example of the inherent problems of gravity riding and the riders), but is anyone besides Northstar doing so in the US? I'd be impressed if all the sellers and buyers of gravity machines would open such a facility.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Jm. said:


> Like I said, what do I care? I've been riding for 15 years, do you honestly think there was anything in his "article" that I didn't already know?


You cared enough to respond. He has written more than one article and many long before you started riding.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

bulC said:


> Or, every word I write is the truth, and you are just measuring others by your own limited experience.
> I have many more good cycling stories that I'm sure you would not believe, so I won't waste my time regaling you with them. Your loss.


Would you have any photo documentation? I believe I've seen pics of every other poster in this thread riding heroicly. If you could post a pic or two of you riding, maybe you'll convince a few people that you can actually do what you say you do, and that you're not just a big bullslinger.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

shiggy said:


> You cared enough to respond. He has written more than one article and many long before you started riding.


So has William F Buckley.


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## hfly (Dec 30, 2003)

Interesting thread trajectory.

The jeep road route up The Rim punching through towards Hidden Valley will remain open as that is long standing right of way. My favorite way of doing The Rim these days is to head south of town, portage up Hidden Valley and ride back to town via The Rim. I prefer my hardtail because it is much, much easier to portage, and it keeps me from getting stupid.

I can't say I'd call The Rim a more technical climb than the Porc ST. There are moves going up Porc that I will never be able to ride, period. In fact, I consider a dab-free run going _down_ Porcupine (something I've never done, but that doesn't mean much) to be more difficult than a dab-free run down the Portal or down the Amasa ST. There are only a few moves going up Moab Rim that are difficult, none of them anywhere close to impossible. Of course, the grade is exceptionally exhausting, even with frequent switchbacking across the line.

hfly


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## Bob the Wheelbuilder (Sep 21, 2003)

Jm. said:


> It was unique and I'm glad that I got to ride it (with lance canfield  )


Who's Lance Canfield?


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Bob the Wheelbuilder said:


> Who's Lance Canfield?


Maker of bikes and freerider/DH extrodinare;

http://www.canfieldbrothers.com/


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## rr (Dec 28, 2003)

hfly said:


> My favorite way of doing The Rim these days is to head south of town, portage up Hidden Valley and ride back to town via The Rim.


I've done it that way, it was a great ride, we tried to ride it again a few years ago but couldn't locate the portage.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Could be they just took it out because the skiing sucked? Maybe Gunny park and rec will buy it to put in at Hartman's.










And to those of you that get offended by bulC, just know one thing. He is not a liar, nor an emblisher even. Sometimes the truth hurts. But don't take it personal I say.

And Hank, probably one of the people not in, most deserving of being in, the MBHOF, especially with the likes of who has been being inducted the last 5 years or so. Heck there is one convicted felon in there and another awaiting judgement and laying really low. So what is the problem with a little arrogance? One hell of a bike rider to boot, not to mention his achievement in the publishing world.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Bigwheel said:


> And to those of you that get offended by bulC, just know one thing. He is not a liar, nor an emblisher even. Sometimes the truth hurts. But don't take it personal I say.


bulC seems to be the one having problems with being offended.


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## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

Bigwheel said:


> And to those of you that get offended by bulC, just know one thing. He is not a liar, nor an emblisher even. Sometimes the truth hurts. But don't take it personal I say.


 Club *claims* to have ridden UP the Porky ST clean. While there's about a dozen spots that will stop even the most talented rider, I'll ignore all of that and focus on the fact that there's no way anyone short of Ryan Leech is riding up the corkscrew.

Bulcrap claims to have done this, making him both a liar and an embelisher.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

singletrack said:


> Club *claims* to have ridden UP the Porky ST clean. While there's about a dozen spots that will stop even the most talented rider, I'll ignore all of that and focus on the fact that there's no way anyone short of Ryan Leech is riding up the corkscrew.
> 
> Bulcrap claims to have done this, making him both a liar and an embelisher.


Is "the corkscrew" the name for the section in the canyon near the end with the steep drop to the right, then across the water?


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

Nat said:


> Is "the corkscrew" the name for the section in the canyon near the end with the steep drop to the right, then across the water?


 Probably. The newer "easier route down, taken a year ago.


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## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

Nat said:


> Is "the corkscrew" the name for the section in the canyon near the end with the steep drop to the right, then across the water?


 Well, that's what I call it, but everybody seems to know what I'm talkin' about. Not typically wet, but sometimes. It's really fun when there's ICE there. Whoo-boy.



lidarman said:


> The newer "easier route down, taken a year ago


 I have a strong dislike for that bypass, and think less of those who ride it.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Whatever boys. 

You ought to look up bulC, whose real name is John Kukoda, when you get to Durango sometime and let him show you how he rides.......But I guess if you don't know who Hank Barlow is the chances are good you wouldn't recognise his name either.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Bigwheel said:


> Whatever boys.
> 
> You ought to look up bulC, whose real name is John Kukoda, when you get to Durango sometime and let him show you how he rides.......But I guess if you don't know who Hank Barlow is the chances are good you wouldn't recognise his name either.


His skills might be amazing, but as grumpy as he comes across, I think I'll pass on the chance to spend time with him. Life's too short to hang out with angry people.


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## Mani_UT (Jan 30, 2004)

> /While lifts and shuttles are fine in their place, they're not necessary to enjoy a mountain bike in the area, whether suspended or not, geared or not.


Well you could also say "while bikes are nice in their place, they're not a necessity to enjoy the area" (sorry I am just forwarding to 10 years from now..)
Well It's not a necessity per say but it's nice for those of us who only have a big bike. It also keep the big bikes out of the other trails! Last season I did not even go to moab (while living in Utah!) because the lift was down and I was not seeing myself spending a whole trip huffing and pushing a big bike around to enjoy the downs. That's what this lift was about and it was kind of cool (and nearly invisible really from the road/town).

Anyway it's kind of sad. Luckily my 6-pack, multiring equiped bikes is only a few weeks away and will send me back to Moab I guess 

Oh and I rode porcupine on my minuteman (rigid steel HT) a few years back and honestly it sucked regardless of what the dude up there might think is an absolute truth.

They are trails where suspension make sense regardless of your skill level.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Jm. said:


> So has William F Buckley.


But not about mt bikes.


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## Maddog (Jul 4, 2004)

hfly said:


> Reliable word is out that the Moab Rim Chairlift and "Freeride Park" has been purchased by the Nature Conservancy. The chairlft will be dismantled and the area restored.
> 
> This is a _good_ thing in my opinion, and (counterintuitively) in the opinion of many other local riders here.
> 
> hfly


I rode this lift once on one of many spring break trips I have been fortunate enough to take to Moab over the last 10 years. It saved time for me and I explored the rim over to some sandy singletrack at Hidden Canyon. The time saved helped me check out other trails in the area. I am sad to see the lift go. It also took hikers up.

A bigger question concerns me as it should anyone who wants to keep trails open. I become alarmed when I hear that a "Nature Conservancy" wants to "restore" a mtb area. I fear that the area may be closed to bikes in the future. I know the Rim is a popular jeep trail and I don't know how much of the land has been purchased by the conservancy nor what their future plans are. But I do think this closure is cause for concern about mtb access to the area and is not a good thing.


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## hfly (Dec 30, 2003)

Maddog said:


> A bigger question concerns me as it should anyone who wants to keep trails open. I become alarmed when I hear that a "Nature Conservancy" wants to "restore" a mtb area. I fear that the area may be closed to bikes in the future. I know the Rim is a popular jeep trail and I don't know how much of the land has been purchased by the conservancy nor what their future plans are. But I do think this closure is cause for concern about mtb access to the area and is not a good thing.


Only the land on the top 1/3 of the Moab Rim Trail, and going down the front (east) side of the cliff, is included. All the rest is BLM. The main route will not close as it is a _very_ well established right of way dating back many years. The "bike park" that was built alongside the top 1/3 of the main route dates back about two years and therefore has no right of way sway. The Nature Conservancy wants the land because it will join the Matheson Preserve (the wetlands located across the street from the bottom of the chairlift) to the Behind The Rocks Wilderness Study Area abutting the sale property to the south on the rim top. There are some archeologic goodies on the property as well.

Please note that this is not a government deal. The affected land has always been private. I think locals (even those who ride) fear the slippery slope of rim development. The chairlift _as is _ is not much of an eyesore, but the land on top has become somewhat trashed with wood structures, new ATV playparks and a UROC course. It was all too much in too little space, and the concentration of impact would likely increase if a new owner tried to up the business ante, a necessary step given The Rim's seeming cash-sink status. The trajectory of protection looks better to me than the trajectory of further development, despite the loss of the "bike park".

hfly


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## Masher (May 18, 2004)

Jm. said:


> So I take it you were doing 8 foot drops on the rigid hardtail?
> 
> There's huge stunts up there, tons of fun, and stuff I doubt anyone would ever attempt on rigid bike.











Not exactly moab, but it's a hardtail, and that's alot more than 8 feet.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Ahhh. JK. I know that name. Read his stuff for years on Mountain BIke before it was hijacked to hell. Kinda puts all his 'gloating' into perspective now. Kinda intersting in how a name can change perceptions of the written word.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

~martini~ said:


> Ahhh. JK. I know that name. Read his stuff for years on Mountain BIke before it was hijacked to hell. Kinda puts all his 'gloating' into perspective now. Kinda intersting in how a name can change perceptions of the written word.


Yup. I checked him out long ago. Recognized the name. Remembered his work. I wish the mags would keep a few of the "old timers" for perspective.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Masher said:


> Not exactly moab, but it's a hardtail, and that's alot more than 8 feet.


I have seen pics of a trials rider doing a 16' wall drop to flat pavement on a 26" rigid bike, too. Landed it and rode away. (In MBUK a year or two ago)


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Yeah, me too. All these new guys keep cycling in through the doors who are all hyped on the 'new' stuff with no perspective of what inspired an item or came before it. I guess we're gettign to the point where Mike Ferrentino is the last one standing(at least in the MTB mags). yeah, there's Dan Koepple, but I never liked him much...


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

~martini~ said:


> Yeah, me too. All these new guys keep cycling in through the doors who are all hyped on the 'new' stuff with no perspective of what inspired an item or came before it. I guess we're gettign to the point where Mike Ferrentino is the last one standing(at least in the MTB mags). yeah, there's Dan Koepple, but I never liked him much...


Yup, and Mikey is not even that old.
It amazes me how many mtbers have never ridden without suspension or indexed shifters.


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## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

I watched Ot and Cesar do 15' to flat with their 26" bikes, I have seen Han's do a 12' to flat, and I saw Ryan do a drop that was at least 15' or so.... so I don't see what the big deal is about 8' with a rigid.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Pat T.� said:


> ... so I don't see what the big deal is about 8' with a rigid.


Well, I could not do it! I would break my ankles or rupture my achilles on the landing even if I did stick it.


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## bock (Jan 21, 2004)

Lidarman posted the following photo of the Porc Rim singletrack,








and bulC said...


bulC said:


> Moab Rim is much more technically difficult.


I'm really confused. If I was as good a rider as bulC and could climb that section of Porcupine Rim, I don't think I would have ANY difficulty cleaning the easiest line on Moab Rim. I'd probably also have a 2nd income from starring as a trials rider in MTB movies, too.

bock


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## Pat T. (Jan 18, 2004)

shiggy said:


> Well, I could not do it! I would break my ankles or rupture my achilles on the landing even if I did stick it.


LOL me either, the bike would not hold up.... BUT my point was, there are riders that can do it with no problems, now going up would be different all together


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## NuMexJoe (Jan 12, 2004)

*That's my wife!*

Hey Rich, thanks for the memories! We'll have to do that again this season.
- Joe (who has no opinion on the chairlift but respects the perspective of the locals)


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

*Porc Rim Corkscrew.*

I wasn't around riding Moab 20 years ago but maybe the corkscrew was not that difficult? Perhaps porc rim was a relatively smooth trail with only a few ledges? Maybe we are all assuming it was hard since that is what we are used to and braggartC didn't reveal that is was smooth in 1985.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Bigwheel said:


> You ought to look up bulC, whose real name is John Kukoda, when you get to Durango sometime and let him show you how he rides.......


You let the cat out of the bag. I don't think Club wanted his name out there - he was pretty private about that. Oh well.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm a Club fan. I've sought his advice offline and I like his posts on mtbr - even if they are a bit self-righteous and old school. Who here isn't a kook in some way? The fact that he is one of the pioneers of mtb publishing only helps his image and bolster his claims. It's always hard to get a read on someone's true feelings when they post a message - maybe he does take himself a little seriously OR maybe the jokes on us. Who knows?

The way I read his little rant is that he won't be popping his head into passion too often. That's fine but I think we'd be missing some good knowledge if he departed from 'techtalk' forums too. Ahhh, whatever - it's just a website.


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## bock (Jan 21, 2004)

lidarman said:


> I wasn't around riding Moab 20 years ago but maybe the corkscrew was not that difficult? Perhaps porc rim was a relatively smooth trail with only a few ledges? Maybe we are all assuming it was hard since that is what we are used to and braggartC didn't reveal that is was smooth in 1985.


I don't know. I would have a hard time imagining any line through the Corkscrew area that would have been easier 20 years ago.

And bulC said Moab Rim was "much more technically difficult," but I don't see how. I remember the Moab Rim climb being not that bad. Mostly it's just steep slickrock, requiring more power and endurance than technical skills. There were some technical bits, but nothing approaching the difficulty of the Corkscrew. Granted, it was a lungbuster...

bock


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Masher said:


> Not exactly moab, but it's a hardtail, and that's alot more than 8 feet.


Not exactly a rigid hardtail like I was talking about either. Thanks for failing reading comprehension.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jm. said:


> Not exactly a rigid hardtail like I was talking about either. Thanks for failing reading comprehension.


I thought "hardtail" by definition had a suspension fork, and "rigid" meant no suspension on either end.


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## Ebo (Dec 30, 2003)

Rigid certainly means "no suspension", but hardtail only refers to the "tail".


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

Carl Mega said:


> The fact that he is one of the pioneers of mtb publishing only helps his image and bolster his claims.


 It does? Well I suppose his laurels should carry him through this and gain my respect!

Ain't happening!

It's "are you real or is it your ego talking?"


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Nat said:


> I thought "hardtail" by definition had a suspension fork, and "rigid" meant no suspension on either end.


That's why I originally said rigid hardtail, so no suspension on either end.

In any case, I never said it was impossible to do such things (so I'm not sure what the point is of the people above this thread, as if I'm on some sort of vendetta to proove it's not possible  ?).

What I did say though was that there was fun stuff up there that was perfect for "big-hit" bikes, freeriding stuff, downhill stuff, drops, whatever. Since bulC was claiming there was nothing up there bigger than a 2-foot ledge, I thought I'd chime in and correct him. Just because bulC did not know where these obvious stunts and lines were, doesn't mean they didn't exist or that we didn't ride them. The moab lift was fun and there was some great stuff to ride out there. It's too bad that some people won't experience it now due to logistical reasons.


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## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

I agree that it is good to have some of the "old timers" around to share the roots of the sport and give some perspective. The problem I have with bulC is that he cannot seem to manage a civil response to anyone. In this thread alone he uses the phrases "freeride idiots" and "mentioned by some idiot here". Why should he expect anyone to treat him with respect when anyone who does not agree with his way of thinking is called an idiot? He can hardly manage a response to any subject without some twisted political rant. 

I remember when I was young we used to love to listen to stories by an "old timer" that lived down the street. He was great and told us all kinds of exciting stories about when he was a kid. I compare him to another old guy who used to chase us away from his place yelling "get out of here you little bastards". We never learned anything about the mean old dude. Do you think bulC makes a good "old timer" to have around for people to learn from? Do you think he will inspire many young riders to be interested in what he has to say? 

I have been published (more than once), and it does not make me smarter than the next guy. It does not mean that I am all knowing. It does not give me the right to come here (or anywhere) and be an arrogant, condescending, prick. 

Whatever it is that bulC is so angry about is his problem to figure out. Maybe he can get a handle on himself and I am sure people here will welcome him right back. I wish him no ill, but it does not hurt my feelings that he has decided to pack-up and go pout somewhere.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

~martini~ said:


> yeah, there's Dan Koepple, but I never liked him much...


Dan's self-deprecating writing always has (still does) crack me up, and unless this is a case of mistaken identity, he posts here a lot (as danK).


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Meaning: He's not just some crank, he's a crank with credentials .

Like him, hate him. Whatever. It's your prerogative.

IMHO, without the fringe personalities the Passion Forum would be a yawn-fest. Luckily, mountain biking tends to attract some real characters. And while I feel we benefit from their presence, I realize some of the more interesting posters are the hardest ones to like.

Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a train wreck somewhere that needs watching.


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## dirtdonk (Jan 31, 2004)

bulC said:


> I've ridden the Moab Rim -- up and down again, probably a dozen times. On rigid steel hardtails. Once with Hank Barlow, who cleaned it on his rigid Salsa. Also was once up there when some texass idiots in a jeep rolled over and fell a looong way down to the road. Beer cans littered the area where they landed.


Quote:
. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulC
I've ridden every ride in an around Moab many times, including a couple of secret singletracks only the locals know.
I started riding there 20 years ago, not a lot of full suspension bikes back then.
When I go there these days I ride a Merlin hardtail with a rigid AccuTrax fork and fat tires, and do fine. I ride the speed the terrain requires, simple as that. That means when desceing some of the ledges on Amasa Back or Porcupine, I go more slowly than some dweebe with a massive travel f/s bike. I seldom have to dab, let alone walk.
The ledges coming down from the overlooks on Porcupine are not that dramatic. Let's put it this way: I usually ride that loop in reverse, so I can then ride down sandy Sand Flats Road instead of shooting my load early climbing the sucker. I have cleaned every inch of Porcupine, on a full rigid bike, if I can climb those socalled ledges using just good body english and leg power, there should be little to be concerned about coming down them.
I think the Best Bike for the slickrock loops is a rigid hardtail, as the limitations of traction and power are best addressed by a frame that gets the power to the wheel, and a fork that doesn't twist and flex and mess with front wheel traction on the steep sidehills.

all hail "the great bulChitter" all hail all hail


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## hfly (Dec 30, 2003)

dirtdonk said:


> Originally Posted by bulC
> I've ridden every ride in an around Moab many times, including a couple of secret singletracks only the locals know.


What about the ones that most of the locals don't even know? "Every ride" is an awfully big statement. That said, I think people are overreacting to some of your statements, bulC. I can actually see some merit to doing Porcupine in reverse (but I could never clean it) and doing Slickrock on a rigid HT. You don't strike me as being as antagonistic as people here have perceived.

hfly


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## rr (Dec 28, 2003)

Who gives a crap who rides what and how, Moab is a place to enjoy being with good friends and riding some epic trails, whether on a HT, FS or a big hit bike. Personally, I think bulc is full of it saying he rode every inch of Porc backwards but I can see a strong rider doing it( minus the corkscrew section described).

I have a question for singletrack-whats the problem with the new bypass?, are you worried about erosion or do you just think anyone who can't ride the original rock drop is a wimp so you think less of them? 95% of the riders out there won't ride that drop, myself included, so I guess your too cool for 95% of us. Are we supposed to care that you think less of anyone who rides that bypass? Your no better than bulc if this is the reason.


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

rroeder said:


> whats the problem with the new bypass


New bypasses widen trails, braid trails, and show poor user ethics. If you can't ride it, walk it, but don't create a new line. That's like chipping holds on a climbing route or lowering the hoop in basketball.

And before you go off on how self righteous I am because I think less of those that have to walk, I do walk sections I can't ride and respect the trail.


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## rr (Dec 28, 2003)

Like I said, is it an erosion issue or just an ego trip, I agree with everything you said but it sounded like he was just talking smack. Considering the traffic on that trail and that particular section, I would think that creating a different more ridable line is not that big of a deal. I saw it for the first time last spring and just assumed it was created as an alternate line since so many people were riding it, I'm happy walking the standard line but most people are just going to assume it's OK to ride this new line so unless something is posted I don't think anyone should be passing judgement.


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## J.D. (Jan 14, 2004)

*pics don't mean anything*



gNat said:


> Would you have any photo documentation? I believe I've seen pics of every other poster in this thread riding heroicly. If you could post a pic or two of you riding, maybe you'll convince a few people that you can actually do what you say you do, and that you're not just a big bullslinger.


That has to be the most idiotic post of the year so far.

In keeping with the original subject: Hey T, thanks for the word on the restoration up there. Those local access channel videos of idiots tearing up the terrain in that area were(are) very disparaging. Now all we need to do is get Sand Flats Road shut down above the fredrock parking lot...


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## J.D. (Jan 14, 2004)

*how many?*



shiggy said:


> It amazes me how many mtbers have never ridden without suspension or indexed shifters.


What reallly amazes me is how many people have the nerve to call, or think of themselves as mountain bikers when they don't even know the basic rules of the trail.

I'm not as old-timey as some, but have been around long enough to recognize what is real and what is garbage. Nobody needs a resume', they just need to ride bicycles and ignore the hype.

I certainly hope Mr. Kukoda doesn't mind his name being dropped but then again, he finally was coerced into dropping one himself.

Now I'm going to go ride my rigid steel singlespeed and dream of being able to afford some index shifters...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

J.D. said:


> That has to be the most idiotic post of the year so far.
> 
> In keeping with the original subject: Hey T, thanks for the word on the restoration up there. Those local access channel videos of idiots tearing up the terrain in that area were(are) very disparaging. Now all we need to do is get Sand Flats Road shut down above the fredrock parking lot...


Why don't pics mean anything, J.D.? A photo is worth a thousand words.


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## sinween (Jan 25, 2005)

Jm-
Why so bitter? We have guys like that to thank for the trails that are available to us today... Not just the trails but technology as well, Lawill, Tomac, Turner, all those old timers paved the way.

I suppose I was salty once when I was full of piss and vigor and the 'ol timers had no respect for me because I showed them none. I could have been bull headed with my attitude, but I sucked up my pride and went on a ride and got my ass hung in the hurt locker. That was 1995.

I then understood why they rode the way did and rode what they rode... The next summer I didn't by a bike haul pass. I haven't looked back and now ride my SS regularly. I also don't ride a heavy ass bike and don't need to wear any pads or full face helmet...

Good luck with that attitude of yours... Makes me want to shop at cambriabikes.com...


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## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

rroeder said:


> I have a question for singletrack-whats the problem with the new bypass?


 If you don't see the problem with a bypass, you should take up road riding. I've walked that section plenty of times too, and lost lots of skin and a few brake levers before I got it down.

That bypass in particular doesn't even flow with the trail; it requires a rider to stop, walk off trail, turn the bike around 180^, and then ride the cheater line. And then what? Does one get to say they cleaned the ever-widening PorkyTrack if they carefully avoid all the obstacles?

Erosion is a b1tch too, sometimes that whole ravine is a big mess, like ATVs have been out there. But it's mtn bikes that done it; and that's lame.



screampint said:


> That's like chipping holds on a climbing route or lowering the hoop in basketball.


That's about the size of it.


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## rr (Dec 28, 2003)

singletrack said:


> If you don't see the problem with a bypass, you should take up road riding. I've walked that section plenty of times too, and lost lots of skin and a few brake levers before I got it down.
> 
> That bypass in particular doesn't even flow with the trail; it requires a rider to stop, walk off trail, turn the bike around 180^, and then ride the cheater line. And then what? Does one get to say they cleaned the ever-widening PorkyTrack if they carefully avoid all the obstacles?
> 
> ...


That makes sense, sorry if I jumped to conclusions on your reply. I agree the approach seems out of place but I'm not so sure it's apparent to most that its a cheater line, it wasn't to me and most that were there, people were either looking at the original line or walking/riding that new line.

Maybe something can be posted to make people aware? Either way, I will walk the original line next time I'm there.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

singletrack said:


> If you don't see the problem with a bypass, you should take up road riding. I've walked that section plenty of times too, and lost lots of skin and a few brake levers before I got it down.
> 
> That bypass in particular doesn't even flow with the trail; it requires a rider to stop, walk off trail, turn the bike around 180^, and then ride the cheater line. And then what? Does one get to say they cleaned the ever-widening PorkyTrack if they carefully avoid all the obstacles?
> 
> ...


 November 2003 is when I first noticed that line (when I took that photo). It also looked fairly new at the time.

Last fall, when returning to Moab, I noticed it has gotten significantly harder, almost as hard near the top as the original line--The step height has increased dramatically.

It also looks like it's no longer a "by-pass" It's more like the status-quo route at this point. The original line looks rarely used. It does flow with the trail now since a big hairping loop has formed at the top, lining up with the drop-in. Interesting how a trail evolves.


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## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

rroeder said:


> That makes sense, sorry if I jumped to conclusions on your reply. I agree the approach seems out of place but I'm not so sure it's apparent to most that its a cheater line, it wasn't to me and most that were there, people were either looking at the original line or walking/riding that new line.


 No problem, but the proper trail is (or was) marked, and trail crews reguraly remove the bypass, only to see it crop up again. Furthermore, a few years back the original line was cleaned out by trail crews, and is now nowhere near as rough as it was.


> Either way, I will walk the original line next time I'm there.


 I for one thank you. But next time you should try riding it!

"Drop the saddle, prepare for battle!"


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## rr (Dec 28, 2003)

singletrack said:


> But next time you should try riding it!
> 
> "Drop the saddle, prepare for battle!"


Yeah, I like to ride the rocky technical drops too(ever ride Palmer Park in the Springs?) but that one is over my head and at 41 I don't bounce off rocks like I used to


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## bock (Jan 21, 2004)

lidarman said:


> November 2003 is when I first noticed that line (when I took that photo). It also looked fairly new at the time.
> 
> Last fall, when returning to Moab, I noticed it has gotten significantly harder, almost as hard near the top as the original line--The step height has increased dramatically.
> 
> It also looks like it's no longer a "by-pass" It's more like the status-quo route at this point. The original line looks rarely used. It does flow with the trail now since a big hairping loop has formed at the top, lining up with the drop-in. Interesting how a trail evolves.


Yeah, last time I was there, it looked like the "original" line had been blocked off by a trail crew, and the "bypass" was now the intended route for everyone. You can't blame someone for taking what appears to be the standard/official route.

bock


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

singletrack said:


> . But next time you should try riding it!


But just rember that it "counts" more if you do it on a fully rigid steel hardtail with a coaster brake, cut-off jean shorts, styrofoam cooler helmet with pink spandex wind cover, and low-top sneakers without socks.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> But just rember that it "counts" more if you do it on a fully rigid steel hardtail with a coaster brake, cut-off jean shorts, styrofoam cooler helmet with pink spandex wind cover, and low-top sneakers without socks.


 ...and riding UP!


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

lidarman said:


> ...and riding UP!


....and have been published during the time that there were only 5 mountain bikers in the country.

All I gots to say is that I'm sad I'll never get to ride the chairlift with a big bike but at least it's going to the Nature Conservancy and not some other well meaning entity for development.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> But just rember that it "counts" more if you do it on a fully rigid steel hardtail with a coaster brake, cut-off jean shorts, styrofoam cooler helmet with pink spandex wind cover, and low-top sneakers without socks.


 sorta like: (found when I was searching my portfolio for caption contest pix)


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## sportsman (Mar 2, 2004)

shiggy said:


> Yup, and Mikey is not even that old.
> It amazes me how many mtbers have never ridden without suspension or indexed shifters.


still ride without suspension (sometimes) and indexed shifting, at least on fat tires


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

lidarman said:


> sorta like: (found when I was searching my portfolio for caption contest pix)


Hell yeah. If that's you, then you're properly justified in demeaning others skills for a duration not to exceed 5 posts.

It's funny, I rode a completely rigid GT for about 3 years in the early 90s and it never once occurred to me to brag about all the riding I did on it.

It's spraypainted like a taxi now and gets me around burning man for a week ...........


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## J.D. (Jan 14, 2004)

*feeble*



gNat said:


> Why don't pics mean anything, J.D.? A photo is worth a thousand words.


It's painfully obvious that you couldn't possibly understand.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

J.D. said:


> It's painfully obvious that you couldn't possibly understand.


Are you sure this isn't just a personal vendetta from 2 weeks ago?

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?postid=638633#poststop

Hey, sorry that I hurt your feelings; somehow I didn't think you'd be so sensitive. I'll try not to let it happen again.


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## shabadu (Jan 12, 2004)

*Another opinion..they're like.......*

FWIW, heres my take on this whole deal/thread. The chairlift was pretty cool. My other passion is skiing, so I got a kick out of riding a chairlift in the desert. I enjoyed riding my big bike down the bike park and Rim Trail, but I never had a pass and mainly rode it during races and if I happened to know the guy working at the bottom. It was a cool, quick option for those in town who bought passes. I know the time spent doing laps made some good riders even better. I did a small 2-run race, The Moab Mangler, on my hardtail (SC Chameleon w/4"Z1), it was fun, but a big bike seemed much more fun to me. 
I'm psyched the Nature Conservancy bought the land. They are a good entity and the land will make a good link between their Matheson Wetlands and the WSA, as Hfly noted. It always made me nervous that the only real chance for the whole thing to get profitable was through some sort of rock-crawler/atv park...theres just not enough bike riders to pay the bills. Motorized folks are much more likeley to throw cash around, bikers are focking cheeeep. Plus, a huge number of DHers would ***** about the pedal back to bottom of the lift, that always bothered me.
Anyhoo, onto the bulC issue. I don't like being called a "dweeb". He seems incredibly closed minded and pissed that the bike industry has evolved and pretty much left him behind. The cool thing about Moab is that you can ride any kind of bike at any speed and have a truckload of fun. However, theres a reason that a large number of locals own a large travel trail bike. If you are riding Moab trails every day you get plain beat up on hardtails...I know, I rode almost everyday for 4 months on hardtails....then I bought a Foes Fly. You see the trails and rocks differently on a big bike, transitions are everywhere and a lot of the moves I hit on Porcupine I have to hit completely pinned or its not as smooth. 
I like climbing on my big bike, I think its good training, wrangling a 40lb+ bike uphill makes you strong. No its not suited for it, but then I don't think rigid bikes are suited for going downhill, but people (including myself) still use them after a good climb. Thats mountain biking. Bikes that do both pretty well obviously exist, but I tend to own bikes on either end of the spectrum. So bulC, if you happen to pass me as you are rattling down the Porky "climb" that I am slowy struggling up from the shuttle drop, we can smile and bask in our mutual suffering although we probably won't understand what the hell the other is doing. Likewise if I come bombing down past you in all my armored squishy glory while you are pedalling up from the river, we can smile and bask in our mutual satisfaction that we are in our respective elements. The key root here being "respect". Different strokes for different folks, thats mountain biking you crusty retro-grouch, deal with it.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

Cool words Joe, but BulC is not here to read it...he left (see thread on the dogly gods striking).

Actually, I hope he didn't leave and was doing a "pete" otherwise, he simply validates the thickness of his skin to boldness of his words ratio as being small.


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## rr (Dec 28, 2003)

shabadu said:


> He seems incredibly closed minded and pissed that the bike industry has evolved and pretty much left him behind. The cool thing about Moab is that you can ride any kind of bike at any speed and have a truckload of fun.


Yeah, you hit the nail on the head, both about bulc and Moab


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## flymybike (Jan 6, 2004)

The Moab Rim is a very narrow slickrock legde capured on both sides by cliffs. Jeeps have driven this route for years and in the process dumped oil, brake fluid and rubber all over the rock. It's not like there is a mass expance of area up there to trash beyond what was already trashed by jeeps. The lift was fun and a good location for a hi impact area to help save other places that, I assume, will be subject to abuse by our displaced big bike crew. What about the slickrock trail! The BLM is handing out tickets if you don't stay on the little painted line. We got hurassed before we even made it to the practice loop without even doing anything. I presume because our bikes looked big. 
I propose we stop fighting and try to keep these wonderful places open. Supporting a trail closure is just DUMB! 
Lance Canfield


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

lidarman said:


> Cool words Joe, but BulC is not here to read it...he left (see thread on the dogly gods striking).
> 
> Actually, I hope he didn't leave and was doing a "pete" otherwise, he simply validates the thickness of his skin to boldness of his words ratio as being small.


Rich, I suspect he's still lurking, or maybe even posting under a different name (hopefully with a nicer attitude). It's not that easy to just split cold turkey, you know.

Joe - all good points. Different strokes and all, it still comes down to riding.


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## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

shabadu said:


> Insert truth here


 I especially like the climbing big bikes part.



flymybike said:


> I propose we stop fighting and try to keep these wonderful places open.


 It's not really a closure as the trail is still open. Mountain bikers didn't do anyhting wrong to make this happen.

The lift failed finacially, and since it was likely never going to run again, it's good someone took it down, instead of waiting 40-50 years for it to fall down.

I'd personally rather see it up and running, but since that's not gonna happen this is prolly the best outcome.


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## SprungShoulders (Jan 12, 2004)

flymybike said:


> Jeeps have driven this route for years and in the process dumped oil, brake fluid and rubber all over the rock. It's not like there is a mass expance of area up there to trash beyond what was already trashed by jeeps.


Totally agree, Lance. During the Rim DH races, while off the bike and scoping lines, I more than once stepping in a puddle of gawd-knows-what goop that had spewed out of the bottom of a jeep or crawler. It's almost hard to not burst out laughing that the BLM turns a blind eye to that kind of terrain abuse, then gets their panties in a twist over us laying down a slab of slickrock so we can jump OVER some crypto crust that's near the main race line.  And I always though the wooden stunts in the freeride park proper were well done, and integrated into the terrain nicely. ....Well, Middle Finger was kinda obvious, but other than that....

In either case, closure of the Rim lift is simply going to force gravity riders elsewhere, not out. Despite the pedal from the base of the RIm back to the lift - which was great exercise and something I never viewed as too much of a pain, even the many times I did it chain-less with a torn-off rear derailleur - the ride down was more than worth it. The loss of the lift is unfortunate. I can certainly understand the financial and operational difficulties in making the thing work. What I don't understand is why some seem compelled to point this episode out as further proof of how bad big bikes are for the "rest" of mountain bike riders. Or why pedaling uphill both ways on a fully rigid ride 10 or 20 years ago somehow implies dues have been paid, and the rest of us are unworthy.


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## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

SprungShoulders said:


> In either case, closure of the Rim lift is simply going to force gravity riders elsewhere, not out.


 Dude, the lift didn't close recently, its been closed for over a year. It was for sale for a million bucks and was never gonna run again. It's best that it will be removed rather than just sitting there rusting.


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## J.D. (Jan 14, 2004)

*don't flatter yourself*



gNat said:


> Are you sure this isn't just a personal vendetta from 2 weeks ago?


You're a riot. How could one have a personal vendetta with words on a screen unless they are an idiot? I have a fantastic idea, why don't you go ride a bicycle?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

J.D. said:


> How could one have a personal vendetta with words on a screen unless they are an idiot?


Ok...


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## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

*If you mix up the letters in JD and Nat....*

it spells Jandt.

Well, the other posts are kinda silly too.


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## Cabin Fever (Jan 23, 2004)

*ridable singletrack? ha!*



bulC said:


> Of course not. The route I rode, as shown me by Hank, had a few 2' drops -- or ledges if you were going up -- and a bunch that were more like a foot or a little more. I don't know what route the freeride idiots have laid out, I'm sure if you went seeking bigger drops up there, you could easily find ones that would be impossible to ride safely on a rigid bike. As I recall we started out near the cliff side, then part way up headed more inward away from the cliffside to contiune up to the top. Hank was an excellent guy to ride with in Moab. He showed me some rides that I don't think many nonlocals ever see. Alternate routes on Poison Spider Mesa, and on Gold Bar Rim, among others. And a cool singletrack (!) down off of Amasa Back, not the usual way down, and I'm not talking about Jacob's Ladder, a real, honesttogosh ridable singletrack that doesn't require 8" of travel and a lobotomy.


I rode that "singletrack" coming off of Amasa Back this past September, and I can honestly say that it was one of the WORST rides I've ever done. this is the trail that goes underneath the powerlines, just after you cross the pipeline. it wasn't that rideale at all(unless Portal-esque exposure doesn't phase you) and towards the end/bottom, i had trouble even finding the trail, let alone riding it, let alone enjoying it. the last 1/2 mile or so was not rideable-at all; not because it was too hairy, but because I had to hack my way through this overgrown creekbed (surprised to see water in it), and scale ledges taller than me, . before the next ride, i had to spend about 15 minutes with my leathermen prying countless goatheads out of my tires. all told, i walked about 75% of that "great singletrack." the top of it was alright, but i soon realized that it was hardly ever ridden - more footprints than tire tracks. afterwards, i was convinced that the section i just rode was some cruel joke conjured up by local guys, because the guy at the shop simply raved about that section - that they get a kick out of directing out-of-towners to the hilariously crappy trail.

before you attribute this rant as coming from some weak rider, lemme tell you that i didn't have any other problems riding the rest of the main trails in moab.


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## hfly (Dec 30, 2003)

Cabin Fever said:


> I rode that "singletrack" coming off of Amasa Back this past September, and I can honestly say that it was one of the WORST rides I've ever done. this is the trail that goes underneath the powerlines, just after you cross the pipeline. it wasn't that rideale at all(unless Portal-esque exposure doesn't phase you) and towards the end/bottom, i had trouble even finding the trail, let alone riding it, let alone enjoying it. the last 1/2 mile or so was not rideable-at all; not because it was too hairy, but because I had to hack my way through this overgrown creekbed (surprised to see water in it), and scale ledges taller than me, . before the next ride, i had to spend about 15 minutes with my leathermen prying countless goatheads out of my tires. all told, i walked about 75% of that "great singletrack." the top of it was alright, but i soon realized that it was hardly ever ridden - more footprints than tire tracks. afterwards, i was convinced that the section i just rode was some cruel joke conjured up by local guys, because the guy at the shop simply raved about that section - that they get a kick out of directing out-of-towners to the hilariously crappy trail.
> 
> before you attribute this rant as coming from some weak rider, lemme tell you that i didn't have any other problems riding the rest of the main trails in moab.


lol. And you missed its prelude.

It's actually ridden on a daily basis in season. Not a cruel joke but an awesome ending to an epic sequence of trails.

hfly <-- amazed at all the directions this thread has gone


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## airwreck (Dec 31, 2003)

radair said:


> Rich, I suspect he's still lurking, or maybe even posting under a different name (hopefully with a nicer attitude). It's not that easy to just split cold turkey, you know.


He was formerly known as Club, said he was tired of being picked on, hated the new forum, never coming back.

One day I started noticing posts from bulC that seemed familiar...

Anyways, It's taking a while to get all caught up with this thread, good stuff. Nice lively discussion. Thanks everyone who joined in, what a fine passion mix.

We may have lost bulC but it looks like we've gained Freeride Shiggy!


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## singletrack (Feb 19, 2004)

Cabin Fever said:


> before you attribute this rant as coming from some weak rider, lemme tell you that i didn't have any other problems riding the rest of the main trails in moab.


 Sorry, but you're a moron. And a weak rider.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

airwreck said:


> ...We may have lost bulC but it looks like we've gained Freeride Shiggy!


It will not be the same bike once it is ready to ride. Waiting on parts.
Not sure how "big" I will be willing to go!


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## sinween (Jan 25, 2005)

I agree with you... Why miss it? If those drops and routes are still important to these people walk up... My problem with that lift was that after portaging up into Hidden Valley and riding to the top of Moab Rim coming across a bunch of inconsiderate Dh'rs... Not all of them were d!ks but I can't remeber many of them giving much warning before tearing around you giving less than a pleasant ending to an otherwise great ride.


screampint said:


> Never ridden it either, so I won't miss it. Actually, I have yet to ride the Moab Rim, and right now I don't think I'd take my main steed on that trail, I think I'd bust a lung. I'd have to get the ol' gears out for that one.


Steve Guarro (sp?) rode up on a SS Spot... I was on a nice geared bike and didn't clean it and I didn't bother asking whether Steve did when he got to the top. He wasn't breathing nearly as hard as I was when he got there and didn't stop on our way out to Hidden Valley... You SS'rs are a piece of work! I wish I had the discipline to ride mine on more than flat rolling trails...


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

So sorta back on track....when is someone do something with the lift on the North end of town?


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## SprungShoulders (Jan 12, 2004)

singletrack said:


> Dude, the lift didn't close recently, its been closed for over a year. It was for sale for a million bucks and was never gonna run again. It's best that it will be removed rather than just sitting there rusting.


I know that.  I live in Utah. Which makes the timing of this thread odd, other than for the purchase of the area by the conservation group. And if my third-, forth-, and fifth-hand info is correct, before the lift was re-opened after the first owner failed to make a go of it, there was a bond fund set up for the purpose of paying for removal of the hardware, should the next - i.e. last - owner's business also fail. And I totally agree, if it's not going to be used, it would be silly to leave it up to rust and disintegrate.

...I guess I held out a little hope someone with a vision and deep pockets would resurrect the freeride park and lift, and make it successful. Honestly, though, from a business perspective, it's probably not a great place to try to set up an operation like that. Too many facors conspiring against it. Oh well, at least some people tried the idea on for size, some of us were able to enjoy it while it lasted, and now Moab moves on.  Kinda like the current graded version of Amasa, the land will reclaim it's own in due time...well, at least where the Jeepers don't roam. Cheers.


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## shabadu (Jan 12, 2004)

Cabin Fever said:


> I rode that "singletrack" coming off of Amasa Back this past September, and I can honestly say that it was one of the WORST rides I've ever done. this is the trail that goes underneath the powerlines, just after you cross the pipeline. it wasn't that rideale at all(unless Portal-esque exposure doesn't phase you) and towards the end/bottom, i had trouble even finding the trail, let alone riding it, let alone enjoying it. the last 1/2 mile or so was not rideable-at all; not because it was too hairy, but because I had to hack my way through this overgrown creekbed (surprised to see water in it), and scale ledges taller than me, . before the next ride, i had to spend about 15 minutes with my leathermen prying countless goatheads out of my tires. all told, i walked about 75% of that "great singletrack." the top of it was alright, but i soon realized that it was hardly ever ridden - more footprints than tire tracks. afterwards, i was convinced that the section i just rode was some cruel joke conjured up by local guys, because the guy at the shop simply raved about that section - that they get a kick out of directing out-of-towners to the hilariously crappy trail.
> 
> before you attribute this rant as coming from some weak rider, lemme tell you that i didn't have any other problems riding the rest of the main trails in moab.


ROTFLMAO.
You're just lucky that you didn't have to wade through chest deep water at the end. 
Absolutely classic.
That trail rules.


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## hfly (Dec 30, 2003)

shabadu said:


> Absolutely classic.
> That trail rules.


Amen, Joe.


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

I walked down that trail once. I'd do it again, too. We found it a few years ago and I was in way over my head. Nothing wrong with challenge, I bet I could ride a _bit_ more of it now.


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## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

shabadu said:


> ROTFLMAO.
> You're just lucky that you didn't have to wade through chest deep water at the end.
> Absolutely classic.
> That trail rules.


AMEN! That trail rocked.


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## YuriB (Jan 12, 2004)

hfly said:


> Amen, Joe.


I'll second that - I love'd that trail when we hit it last May and I'll be back this year to hit it again. Good stuff.


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