# Why No Women in the Tour De France?



## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

is there a rule or something? i realized today after reading an article in USA Today basically saying what a trainwreck the sport has become what with all of the doping scandals, that i've never seen or even heard of a woman rider in the tdf. why is this? there has to be some company out there willing to sponsor an all women's team, or even a rider or two on another team. what gives?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

TrekFan said:


> is there a rule or something? i realized today after reading an article in USA Today basically saying what a trainwreck the sport has become what with all of the doping scandals, that i've never seen or even heard of a woman rider in the tdf. why is this? there has to be some company out there willing to sponsor an all women's team, or even a rider or two on another team. what gives?


I don't know if it's a written rule or not, but are there even any women who are fast enough to keep up with a TdF-caliber peleton?

There exists a TdF Feminin though.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Nat said:


> but are there even any women who are fast enough to keep up with a TdF-caliber peleton?


Please don't understand me wrong now, because I don't mean it in bad way. No there's no women who could be even close to men, when it comes to this. And it's pretty much same in all endurance sports. I remember back from my xc skiing days, when I was nothing that great, but even if I had really really bad day, with really bad skis, my times were still from at least 2-3minutes on 10km (20-25min) faster then World's best women xc skiers. And top men were another minute or two faster then me (on same race, so conditions were same etc.).
So realistically looking, women don't have chance to compete equally with men on some race like TdF for example. 
And once again, please don't understand me wrong with this now. I'm not against women, women in sport, or anything like that.


----------



## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

primoz said:


> Please don't understand me wrong now, because I don't mean it in bad way. No there's no women who could be even close to men, when it comes to this. *And it's pretty much same in all endurance sports.* I remember back from my xc skiing days, when I was nothing that great, but even if I had really really bad day, with really bad skis, my times were still from at least 2-3minutes on 10km (20-25min) faster then World's best women xc skiers. And top men were another minute or two faster then me (on same race, so conditions were same etc.).
> So realistically looking, women don't have chance to compete equally with men on some race like TdF for example.
> And once again, please don't understand me wrong with this now. I'm not against women, women in sport, or anything like that.


i agree, except with that one line there is a bit of an exception. womens bodies have the abilty, in theory, to be better than mens at endurance sports in specific, because of the higher body fat%(for energy) and lower body weight distro the bigger hips provide. this is what science studies have determined at least,im sure there is more in it than anyone knows though.

plus lance already proved that having fewer balls is better.
(actually there is truth to this also, if you do some research, that when he lost on of his little guys it changed his testoserone/estrogen levels and that changes how your body stores/burns fat compared to other energy, and when you look at a time line when he lost it is exactly when he checnged from a good one day rider(triathalon guy) to multi-stage guy(TDF winning guy). crazy stuff.


----------



## Gatorback (Oct 9, 2007)

Another example to compare elite pro men v. elite pro women is the marathon. The men's world best is now under 2:05. Women have just broken 2:20 in the last few years and I think the record is something like 2:18 and some seconds. Very, very few women have run under 2:20. The elite men break 2:10 all the time.

Whether women can do better in ultra-endurance events due to their higher percentage of body fat is still something being debated. But we are talking about "one shot" events that last a long time, such as a 100 or more mile trail run, and require a lower intensity but very lengthy effort. I think a woman has been the overall winner of the one of the long endurance races in the U.S. on a couple of occasions, but I'm not sure of the men's fields she competed against. The best pro men may not have been been there.

I have read some research on the issue and believe that with running, the difference between the world's best for men and women is always in the range of 10%, so that men the men's world best is about 10% faster than the women's. This was a study that compared world's bests in numerous events from the 100m to the marathon, and looked at them over a long period of time. The difference has been strikingly similar for years.

I would think that there would be a bigger difference in bike racing because, unlike running, your power to weight ratio becomes more important than it is with most running events. Endurance running events don't require much power, while cycling often requires very serious power. I'm sure there are women who could hang with the pro peleton on a flat course--but in the final 10k when everybody drops the hammer and they start getting ready to lead out for the sprinters that is when we would find out if the best women could hang in there.


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Hand/of/Midas said:


> i agree, except with that one line there is a bit of an exception. womens bodies have the abilty, in theory, to be better than mens at endurance sports.... and when you look at a time line when (Lance) lost it is exactly when he checnged from a good one day rider(triathalon guy) to multi-stage guy(TDF winning guy). crazy stuff.


1.) Look at the World Records for women. High School aged boys reqularly beat them, cycling included. Women aren't within 15 mins of the marathon time. You're the victim of PC myths.

2.) If you don't know now, I'll break the news. Lance won because he cheated. If he didn't, some other cheater would have won. Cycling is rotten with doping scandals, they didn't have the means to catch the latest drugs/methods when he was racing.


----------



## Gatorback (Oct 9, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> 1.) Look at the World Records for women. High School aged boys reqularly beat them, cycling included. Women aren't within 15 mins of the marathon time. You're the victim of PC myths.


Midas is right about women in ultra-endurance events. There is a serious debate among exercise physiologists on the issue and there is some evidence that women may be able to out-perform men in such events. There are coaches and exercise physiologists very interested in the issue. But an event barely over two hours, such as the marathon, is not nearly long enough. Where women might be able to outperform men is in very long events. We are talking 100+ trail runs and things like that--low intensity but very lengthy efforts.


----------



## Gatorback (Oct 9, 2007)

By the way, I want to add that for probably 98% of us men out there we shouldn't get too confident about smoking all the women around. Because the elite women will kick our ass. I'm riding with a group of roadies to try to get ready for a mountain biking race season and they are kicking my butt. They are really good riders. There is one woman in the group, she is in her mid-40s, and she is a former state champion road racer from about 10 years ago. She finishes with the lead group all the time and, while she isn't better than the best of those guys, she is in a whole different league than most of the weekend warriors around here.

When I used to run, I typically would place in my age group and would finish in the top 2% of the field most of the time. But still, there were always a few women around that could whip my butt.


----------



## cruso414 (Aug 19, 2004)

*The greatest mtb rider of all time (imho)*

Julie Furtado would have only placed 5th or 6th in most men's xc races on her best days. Then you start talking about pro road racing, and the gap is beyond comprehension between men and women. I don't mean it in a cheuavanistic way either but the femine' tour de france has really short stages and the average speed is slower than those of the men's tour. I would however be all for allowing women into the tour, much better reason to sit on someone's wheel .


----------



## Pooh Bear (May 25, 2006)

after reading some of the responses I can answer the OP's question: Because they don't have the balls.


----------



## ScottW (Jan 16, 2004)

The reason is because this is "Mens" pro cycling. There are no men riding in the women's pro cycling events either. Same as with most other sports.


----------



## saturnine (Mar 28, 2007)

women are weak.

you should post this in the women's lounge.


----------



## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

ScottW said:


> The reason is because this is "Mens" pro cycling. There are no men riding in the women's pro cycling events either. Same as with most other sports.


who says? again i ask, is there a rule? there's no way anyone is going to convince me that a woman would not be able to finish the tdf. and in this day and age, just finishing gives you a chance to win it. entire teams are disqualified regularly.

some of your responses sadden me. this is the same sort of b.s. that women have to endure when the topic comes up in baseball or golf or even bowling. they're too weak, they're too slow, they just can't keep up with men, so therefore there needs to be a separate "women's" version. don't even get me started on why women are forced to play softball and not baseball...


----------



## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

saturnine said:


> women are weak.
> 
> you should post this in the women's lounge.


----------



## saturnine (Mar 28, 2007)

you asked why, but you do not like the answer.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

TrekFan said:


> who says? again i ask, is there a rule? there's no way anyone is going to convince me that a woman would not be able to finish the tdf. and in this day and age, just finishing gives you a chance to win it. entire teams are disqualified regularly.
> 
> some of your responses sadden me. this is the same sort of b.s. that women have to endure when the topic comes up in baseball or golf or even bowling. they're too weak, they're too slow, they just can't keep up with men, so therefore there needs to be a separate "women's" version. don't even get me started on why women are forced to play softball and not baseball...


I tried to Google TdF rules to see if women are expressly forbidden from entering, but I came up with nothing useful.

For the sake of argument let's say women are allowed to enter per the rules. I don't know if any woman currently exists who can ride at the level of the TdF racers. I'd like there to be someone because I'd cheer her on all the way, but I don't think there is any such person. Most pro men are unable to ride at that level, so they don't make the cut.

The TdF is like the Superbowl of cycling, so an analogy would be finding a woman who is a good enough football player to even be in the NFL (difficult in itself) but it doesn't mean she is necessarily good enough to start in the championship game. Racing the TdF would be like starting in the Superbowl. It's pretty high up there on the scale of difficulty.


----------



## Guest (Jul 4, 2008)

who don't women boxers have matches with men?

where are the female DBs, QBs and RBs in the NFL?

in my opinion, the only major sport in which the girls might keep up with the boys is basketball and marginally at that.

i'm not being a boor, i'm not being sexist i'm just telling the truth.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Gatorback said:


> By the way, I want to add that for probably 98% of us men out there we shouldn't get too confident about smoking all the women around. Because the elite women will kick our ass. I'm riding with a group of roadies to try to get ready for a mountain biking race season and they are kicking my butt. They are really good riders. There is one woman in the group, she is in her mid-40s, and she is a former state champion road racer from about 10 years ago. She finishes with the lead group all the time and, while she isn't better than the best of those guys, she is in a whole different league than most of the weekend warriors around here.
> 
> When I used to run, I typically would place in my age group and would finish in the top 2% of the field most of the time. But still, there were always a few women around that could whip my butt.


Athletic chauvinism would be a huge mistake in my town. Half the women who live here can dust most of the men out there.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Here, I asked a knowlegable group:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1637891#post1637891

Maybe they know if there's a rule or not.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't know if there's rule or not. I would assume there's no rule. There are on the other side rules, that men can't compete in women races, but I don't think it's opposite.
But as I wrote, there's unfortunately no chance any women would be competitive in such level. I have been long enough around top level sport, first 20 years of xc skiing myself, and now quite few years as sport photographer shooting World cup and World Championships in many sports including cycling. And when you look women races they are fine, but speed is nothing that would really amaze me. With men races, things are different. I am amazed over and over again, even if I'm used to this. So if we like it or not, best women on World wouldn't have any chance to finish single a bit faster stage of TdF in time limits they have.
And for easier comparison... check times in marathon or even 100m running, where women and men compete on exactly same tracks. Difference is huge.
And once again, as I wrote earlier already, I have nothing against women in sport, and if someone asks me, I have no problems with women being on start of TdF, but I don't think it's realistically to expect, women can be competitive in men category.


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Gatorback said:


> ...There is a serious debate among exercise physiologists on the issue and there is some evidence that women may be able to out-perform men in such events.....


Only problem is, to date, no woman has won a men's event with a world class field. This debate is at least 40 years old yet there's no evidence that woman are closer than they were 40 years ago. You dreamers are victims of PC hype :thumbsup:

Just because a fit woman can outride a fat man is meaningless. You need to compare the best women against the best men.

Name one endurance event were the women's world record is better than the US High School Boy record...Start at the 100m dash, go all the way to marathon. OK, try cycling, start at the kilo, go all the way to the 40km TT, the women's world record isn't as fast as the Jr Mens world record. The world's best women typically can't beat a HS boys state champion in track and field.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*As long as one stays with facts and data*

the charge of sexism is futile.

If one wanted to argue that sociological and historical predispositions to the exclusion of women to date have had any effect in keeping women from developing competitively then one MIGHT have something. I doubt it, though.


----------



## ScottW (Jan 16, 2004)

TrekFan said:


> who says? again i ask, is there a rule? there's no way anyone is going to convince me that a woman would not be able to finish the tdf. and in this day and age, just finishing gives you a chance to win it. entire teams are disqualified regularly.
> 
> *some of your responses sadden me.* this is the same sort of b.s. that women have to endure when the topic comes up in baseball or golf or even bowling. they're too weak, they're too slow, they just can't keep up with men, so therefore there needs to be a separate "women's" version. don't even get me started on why women are forced to play softball and not baseball...


Stop, please. You're killing me!:lol:


----------



## i1dry (Jan 12, 2004)

Women don't have a chance because they can't pee on the side of the road. Plus they'd have to go with someone else. They'd also have to wash their hands and with all those TV cameras around, they'd take forever fixing their makeup. :smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin: 

i1dry?


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

TrekFan said:


> who says? again i ask, is there a rule? there's no way anyone is going to convince me that a woman would not be able to finish the tdf. and in this day and age, just finishing gives you a chance to win it.


I think it would be great if there were women who could compete with men at that level. However, to introduce this as a practical possibility I suspect you have very little knowledge about time cutoffs for stages in the TdF and similar races, and how it relates to the importance of being able to hang with the peloton day after day (flats, uphill, and downhill) to draft and conserve enough energy to keep making those time cutoffs.

Will there never be a female rider capable enough to ride in the TdF if hypothetically given the chance? Who knows... However, currently there isn't any woman rider who could do it. Not even one. Sorry. If you asked the (very talented) top female riders in the world whether they could do it right now, I suspect they'd find the question very amusing.


----------



## Gatorback (Oct 9, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> Only problem is, to date, no woman has won a men's event with a world class field. This debate is at least 40 years old yet there's no evidence that woman are closer than they were 40 years ago. You dreamers are victims of PC hype :thumbsup:
> 
> Just because a fit woman can outride a fat man is meaningless. You need to compare the best women against the best men.
> 
> Name one endurance event were the women's world record is better than the US High School Boy record...Start at the 100m dash, go all the way to marathon. OK, try cycling, start at the kilo, go all the way to the 40km TT, the women's world record isn't as fast as the Jr Mens world record. The world's best women typically can't beat a HS boys state champion in track and field.


You obviously did not read the rest of my posts in this thread.

(Do you want an ultra endurance race where a woman won? Check out the results for the Badwater Ultramarathon in 2003, when Pam Reed repeated as race champion and won for the second year in a row--beating Dean Kazarnes in the process).

Go read what I said in the other posts about comparing men's v. women's results in endurance events.


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Gatorback said:


> You obviously did not read the rest of my posts in this thread...Go read what I said in the other posts about comparing men's v. women's results in endurance events.


Some weird freak show event isn't going to draw world class men. Look at the full Iron Man comps for a real life example. Ultra endurance...drag it out to life expectancy and I'll be in your camp, otherwise this is just the same old PC claptrap :thumbsup:


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Nat said:


> Here, I asked a knowlegable group:
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1637891#post1637891
> 
> Maybe they know if there's a rule or not.


The UCI has different rules regarding the length of races for men and women. Women's races are limited to shorter single day and stage lengths and fewer number of stages.

No official rule I know of that barring females from competing in men's pro races (they can ride in local/regional races) but few, if any, are fast enough to be hired by a male team.


----------



## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Same reason women don't compete with men in other sports like track and field, boxing, martial arts, weightlifting, etc. Their genetic makeup doesn't allow them to become as strong, fast, or fit, at that elite level. There are plenty of gifted women athletes but at that level, I think the different genetic makeup and genetic abilities come into play. Also, testosterone produces more muscle and strength and women don't produce as much- that also probably makes women a lot hotter than men in general 

Hey, I just stayed at a Holday Inn Express yesterday so I know all this stuff now...


----------



## goat (Mar 5, 2004)

I agree with the above posts. It would be a disaster if women were allowed in the tdf. There times would be almost doubled by the men. Not that women can not ride, just not with the big boys. I know this is not "pc" but who are we kidding? It would be like mixing the WNBA with the NBA, it just would not work out. But I thought there is a womens version of the tdf? Isent there?


----------



## jsnider8 (Jan 5, 2008)

Physical differences aside, it may be more of an unspoken rule than a spoken one. If a woman has a desire and can qualify with the same measures as any other man they should be allowed to compete. But there would probably be some who would disagree just because it is easier for many to lose gracefully (or not) to another man than to be beaten by a woman. More of a psychological thing than anything else probably. Think about it though, there are plenty of instances where some sore loser throws a punch (or more) at a rival. In most sports there is just arbitration, suspensions, and a fine. What if a guy in the heat of the sport lost it on a female competitor? Or vice versa and a female beat the crap out of a guy? Either instance would not be a good thing.

I enjoy activities with mixed groups, but I also enjoy things with just "the guys", and likewise my wife with just "the girls". It's something we all need. In sports, it just grew into traditions that are what they are for what ever reasons. Mostly bonding times.


----------



## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

mikeb said:


> who don't women boxers have matches with men?
> 
> where are the female DBs, QBs and RBs in the NFL?
> 
> ...


golf? tennis? bowling? diving? wasn't there some high-publicity tennis match in the 70's where the woman beat the hell out of the man?

look, i'm not trying to start some heated debate about society and sexism. i just want to know if women are allowed to compete in the tdf, and if so, why no woman has decided to try. i am personally very proud of the women in my life, and would love to think that they would be able to compete against men if they so chose. without all the sexist ********. after reading the responses here, it seems its wishful thinking, at least in my lifetime...

and as for the boxing matches, you should hang out in my neck of the woods. around 2-3 am on a friday or saturday night once the bars and clubs let out, there are usually some pretty good male/female boxing matches going on. and let me tell you, the women usually hold their own...


----------



## Treybiker (Jan 6, 2004)

Pooh Bear said:


> after reading some of the responses I can answer the OP's question: Because they don't have the balls.


It won't be long...........

Without balls









And with???


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

TrekFan said:


> golf? tennis? bowling? diving? wasn't there some high-publicity tennis match in the 70's where the woman beat the hell out of the man?
> 
> look, i'm not trying to start some heated debate about society and sexism. i just want to know if women are allowed to compete in the tdf, and if so, why no woman has decided to try. i am personally very proud of the women in my life, and would love to think that they would be able to compete against men if they so chose. without all the sexist ********. after reading the responses here, it seems its wishful thinking, at least in my lifetime...
> 
> and as for the boxing matches, you should hang out in my neck of the woods. around 2-3 am on a friday or saturday night once the bars and clubs let out, there are usually some pretty good male/female boxing matches going on. and let me tell you, the women usually hold their own...


You just do not get it. The TdF and other sports at the elite level are just that. Elite. The best females are able to beat the "good" sportsman most of the time. Elite males will beat the Elite females nearly every time.

As for that tennis match, it was the reigning world #1 woman playing a 50-60 year old retired second string pro man.


----------



## The Understater (May 6, 2007)

jsnider8 said:


> What if a guy in the heat of the sport lost it on a female competitor? Or vice versa and a female beat the crap out of a guy? Either instance would not be a good thing.


I remember seeing a clip of Danica Patrick nearly doing just that at another couple of drivers after an incident on the track. Now there's a lady that can stick it to the big boys. Not bike related of course, but I've always been stoked to see her not just holding her own, but kicking heinie in a traditionally male sport.:thumbsup:


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Not relevant unless you want a throttle*

in the TdF.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

TrekFan said:


> i just want to know if women are allowed to compete in the tdf, and if so, why no woman has decided to try.


It's not a matter of "deciding to try." The TdF is not your local community event, where anyone with $30 and a bike can register and race. You have to be at the upper echelon of the professional ranks, and then get invited.


----------



## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> Some weird freak show event isn't going to draw world class men. Look at the full Iron Man comps for a real life example. Ultra endurance...drag it out to life expectancy and I'll be in your camp, otherwise this is just the same old PC claptrap :thumbsup:


you say "full ironman" like its supposed to be long or something.
dude, your talking about marathons and ironman races. thats not ultra endurance racing, thats a piss in a rain storm when it comes to ultra-endurance racing.

for sprint racing like marathons and ironmans the lower the body fat the better,men will have an advantage.

of course these ultra races are not as popular as the ironman or whatever, because you have to be partially crazy to want to do a deca-ironman race,just as an example.(24 mile swim,1120 mile bike,262 mile run, NON-STOP!)

this is what were talking about when we say ultra endurance, because after all, oprah and P.Diddy do regular marathons. now you know more than you did 30sec ago pursuiter . your welcome.


----------



## The Understater (May 6, 2007)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Not relevant unless you want a throttle in the TdF.


Well it could hardly make it less farcical than it already is.rft:



> (by Trek Fan) golf? tennis? bowling? diving? wasn't there some high-publicity tennis match in the 70's where the woman beat the hell out of the man?
> 
> look, i'm not trying to start some heated debate about society and sexism. i just want to know if women are allowed to compete in the tdf, and if so, why no woman has decided to try. i am personally very proud of the women in my life, and would love to think that they would be able to compete against men if they so chose. without all the sexist ********. after reading the responses here, it seems its wishful thinking, at least in my lifetime...
> 
> and as for the boxing matches, you should hang out in my neck of the woods. around 2-3 am on a friday or saturday night once the bars and clubs let out, there are usually some pretty good male/female boxing matches going on. and let me tell you, the women usually hold their own...


Perhaps I should have led in with this quote instead.
Look, I know Indy Car isn't the TdF, but it would be ignorant in the extreme to suggest that it isn't extremely physically demanding. I'm more of an F1 fan, but I can tell you that those drivers have to have elite level fitness and strength just to hold their head up for an entire race.

As for the TdF, well, it's one of those 'best of the best of the best' things isn't it? As has already been stated, you don't get to choose. You just have to be good enough. Sexism doesn't really enter into it.


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Hand/of/Midas said:


> ....your welcome.


Freak show, doesn't draw world class...it's "you're welcome"


----------



## Gatorback (Oct 9, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> Freak show, doesn't draw world class...it's "you're welcome"


You don't need to be a smart ass to Midas and calling me "PC" because we are giving legitimate info in this discussion. I can tell Midas knows what he is talking about.

Here is the theory espoused by some exercise physiology experts: Women burn a higher percentage of fat during low intensity efforts than men do, and their bodies store a higher percentage of fat. So for extremely long events, at lower intensity, where the body is burning more fat for fuel and needs more of it, women may at some point exceed men in ability. That threshold clearly doesn't apply to an eight or ten hour race like an ironman, and certainly not to a marathon, and known results show that to be the case.

When you say that Dean Kazarnes is not a world class male endurance racer, you are showing your ignorance. Pam Reed beat him in the 2003 Badwater Ultramarathon. Note that in 2003 5 of the top 10 finishers were female, and 5 were male. This is evidence that in an ultra endurance event of 24+ hours of non-stop running, we may be getting close to that point in which women's abilities exceed men's.

Look, I don't know where you get this idea to call me "PC" because I am posting legitimate info on the question posed. If you don't think I'm right, go research it yourself. You don't know what you are talking about. The difference between men's and women's running world records is basically 10%--men are about 10% faster--and that general range has held for years in world best marks in races from 100m up to the marathon. As I said before, I tend to think cycling events would result in a greater spread because cycling relies more on a power to weight ratio than does running, and that would suggest men would fare even better.

I'll give you some more info on this issue, just to help you out. The difference between men and women in upper body strength is greater than the difference in lower body strength. Women's upper body strength is typically just about 2/3 of men's strength, while their lower bodies have about 3/4 the strength of men's lower bodies. I'm getting this info from studies done by exercise physiologists and published in exercise physiology journals.

You don't need to criticize Midas in a smart ass way or call me "PC." I don't know Midas at all, but can tell from what he is posting that he knows what he is talking about. Also, your calling me PC is ridiculous given what I posted previously about men's abilities v. women's abilities before you started hurling insults.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Treybiker said:


> It won't be long...........
> 
> Without balls
> 
> And with???


Canadian female swimmer.


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 3, 2005)

Jayem said:


> Klingon female swimmer.


maybe.


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2008)

**Note that in 2003 5 of the top 10 finishers were female, and 5 were male.**

that doesn't leave much room for the trannies does it? :devil:


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*So it looks like if we create a very special kind of event*

then women can succeed in defeating men at the elite level where eleite men and elite women compete. I am neither, by the way and they could all kick my sorry butt. I digress....
It isn't clear, exactly, what that kind of event this would be but it would clearly have to be shaped to put men at a clearly understood disadvantage; whatever that is. 
Further, one example of a woman defeating a man at an elite level proves nothing other than it is possible. Remember the rule of statistics: f'rinstance is not proof.

Belated congratulations to Pam Reed on her victory!


----------



## Atomic300 (Feb 9, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Canadian female swimmer.


I say bring back the east german women and lets have some fun!!! Ya baby!


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Remember Katrina Witt, a little on the furry side


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Katerina Witt. Speak her name in vane?*

You are unworthy.


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Hey, I didn't say it was a bad thing, I am a 70's old schooler


----------



## afie (Aug 28, 2006)

TrekFan said:


> golf? tennis? bowling? diving? wasn't there some high-publicity tennis match in the 70's where the woman beat the hell out of the man?


How does cycling fit into those "sports"? Physically, women have no chance in any power-endurance sports. Those "pastimes" you listed are more level playing fields because of the lesser importance of size, strength, speed, with technique the main influence. Top women are only comparable to men in certain subjective events: diving, skating, dressage. Whoever filled your head with otherwise notions is wrong.


----------



## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

Berkeley Mike said:


> then women can succeed in defeating men at the elite level where eleite men and elite women compete. I am neither, by the way and they could all kick my sorry butt. I digress....
> It isn't clear, exactly, what that kind of event this would be but it would clearly have to be shaped to put men at a clearly understood disadvantage; whatever that is.
> Further, one example of a woman defeating a man at an elite level proves nothing other than it is possible. Remember the rule of statistics: f'rinstance is not proof.
> 
> Belated congratulations to Pam Reed on her victory!


really its not any kind of complex twisted rules to favor women, it just has to be really really long with out stoping, like long enough that 24hr solo racing looks easy,thats not really weird , just insane.


----------



## Pooh Bear (May 25, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> Remember Katrina Witt, a little on the furry side


try "Kati Witt" in a gooogle picture search. I won't link it here... 2nd pic.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Pooh Bear said:


> try "Kati Witt" in a gooogle picture search. I won't link it here... 2nd pic.


Wow, she does a lot of nude photos, doesn't she?


----------



## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

afie said:


> How does cycling fit into those "sports"? Physically, women have no chance in any power-endurance sports. Those "pastimes" you listed are more level playing fields because of the lesser importance of size, strength, speed, with technique the main influence. Top women are only comparable to men in certain subjective events: diving, skating, dressage. Whoever filled your head with otherwise notions is wrong.


let's not get ridiculous here. you guys (including the person earlier asking why women were not dbs, qbs, rbs, etc in football) seem to operate under the holier than thou premise that cyclists are built like mack trucks (6'2+ 220+ lbs). that's simply not the case. the average tdf rider is what, 5'5-5'7 and 130-150 lbs. miguel martinez is 5'2 and 115 lbs. cadel evans weighs 150lbs. most of the guys responding here are probably 150 lbs soaking wet lol

so there isn't exactly the height-weight disadvantage that women would face as in other sports. so let's not get all delusional with the "women don't have the physical makeup to compete". many women would match up just fine with (and exceed) 5'2 and 115 lbs...


----------



## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

shiggy said:


> You just do not get it. The TdF and other sports at the elite level are just that. Elite. The best females are able to beat the "good" sportsman most of the time. Elite males will beat the Elite females nearly every time.


i don't care about BEATING elite males. my point is COMPETING against elite males. they should be at least allowed to try. that's my point. the vast majority of the 199 riders in the tdf have zero chance of actually winning the race, yet they compete...


----------



## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I think you are the delusional one here and have little knowledge of the differences that hormones have on the development of the male and female since birth. Testosterone production in men is 10-20 times as much as women. Art the same size/weight, and elite male athlete would be stronger and faster than an elite female athlete in general. I'm all for females competing..at that level, they would be as dedicated and hard-core as the guys but I doubt they could qualify for those events at that level. Look at the best female sprinters- they are about as strong and fast and female athletes get and they run ~10% slower than their male counterparts. At the same weight and height, a male sprinter's higher testosterone levels have already built stronger muscles and he has an advantage due to his genetic makeup or physical makeup. That does not means "size"- that means how strong and efficient his muscles are when compared to people of the same size/weight and bodyfat level.

Do some research- read up on why men are stronger, faster, and more aggressive/competive in general. By the same token, read why women live longer in general. Maybe you will understand that it is less of a conspiracy that you think. You take this personally...most of us don't.


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

TrekFan said:


> i don't care about BEATING elite males. my point is COMPETING against elite males. they should be at least allowed to try. that's my point. the vast majority of the 199 riders in the tdf have zero chance of actually winning the race, yet they compete...


You REALLY do not get it! In the case of the TdF team, or even getting on a Pro Tour team in the first place, you have to "beat" another rider for the place.

Only the most competitive teams are chosen for the Tour and the teams bring only their most competitive riders.

And road racing is a team sport. While few racers have a chance at winning the GC they still need a strong team to help them to win.


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

TrekFan said:


> ... so let's not get all delusional with the "women don't have the physical makeup to compete". many women would match up just fine with (and exceed) 5'2 and 115 lbs...


Do you think women are being excluded from the Tour unfairly? Do you think a woman could finish the race? (remember, there's a time limit on each stage, finish late, get DQ'ed.)


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

TrekFan said:


> i don't care about BEATING elite males. my point is COMPETING against elite males. they should be at least allowed to try. that's my point. the vast majority of the 199 riders in the tdf have zero chance of actually winning the race, yet they compete...


How about starting with some local events rather than the biggest, most difficult bike race in the world?

Since you underestimate the accomplishment of racing in an event the caliber of the TdF, I'll use the football analogy again. What you're suggesting is like saying, "Why aren't women allowed to play football? They should get to try the Superbowl."


----------



## afie (Aug 28, 2006)

You seem to not grasp a basic understanding of the differences in gender. Pound for pound, inch for inch, a man will be faster on a bike than a woman. The difference in performance across most power-endurance sports has proven to be a function of maximal oxygen uptake. Women have lower vo2max values due to higher body fat, smaller hearts (that dont increase in size like males do in response to cardio training), smaller lungs and lower blood hemoglobin. Women and men have similar power outputs when you are comparing bodies with equal muscle mass, but women cannot achieve the same muscle mass as a man due to higher body fat (point out any women that race comfortably at 5%).

Now when you are comparing multi day events where recovery is a major factor, men have higher testosterone levels, an anabolic agent that acts just like "steroids" to grow and repair muscles.
Compare the winners of any years world champs, male and female. The womans program will have roughly 10% less volume than the mans, due to the effect of testosterone.



TrekFan said:


> my point is COMPETING against elite males. they should be at least allowed to try. that's my point. the vast majority of the 199 riders in the tdf have zero chance of actually winning the race, yet they compete...


Your point is pointless. Why would you give a contract (and a tdf berth) to a woman when you could give it to a guy that could not only ride faster, but back up better the next day? This is big business, there is no oppourtunity to "try".


----------



## afie (Aug 28, 2006)

Flyer said:


> At the same weight and height, a male sprinter's higher testosterone levels have already built stronger muscles and he has an advantage due to his genetic makeup or physical makeup. That does not means "size"- that means how strong and efficient his muscles are when compared to people of the same size/weight and bodyfat level.


Women and men have the same strength muscles. Women will take longer to reach the same strength levels as men, but the higher body fat means that guys have more muscle mass.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

As me, and quite few others already wrote... I don't think there's rule which would forbid women to race, but I'm not 100% sure about it. But problem is not in rules, but somewhere else. Protour is different then MTB World cup, where pretty much anyone with 3 minutes time can enter race. And for Protour (or this year for TdF, since it's not under Protour anymore) there are few things, which are specific. Every single team which enters (for TdF, Giro and Vuelta is selected, and doesn't have guaranteed place on start list) is there to win at least one stage. You have to consider, TdF is THE race, and whole cycling world is spinning around this race, so winning one stage on TdF means more then winning 100 other races. Some of teams there, are there only for GC, green or polka dot jersey, but most of them want to make impression and at least win one stage. For this, you need 9 riders who are able to do this. Yes I know 90% of riders on TdF are not able to win stage just like that, but with a bit luck, proper riders in escape etc., they might have chance.
Now if these teams would put one or even more women in team, that would mean they are going after their goal with only 8 or even less riders, because no matter how great everything would go, women are not able to win stage... period. This means, from start on, these teams have at least 10% less chances to fulfill their goals... and justify money they get from sponsors. And you are probably not that naive, so you know all this is about money.... a lot of money. So now count 1+1 and you will see why there's no women on start of TdF.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

TrekFan said:
 

> so let's not get all delusional with the "women don't have the physical makeup to compete". many women would match up just fine with (and exceed) 5'2 and 115 lbs...


You can call this whatever way you want, but as I wrote in my first reply... I have been in top level xc skiing for 20 years, and xc skiing is kinda similar to cycling, so things can be comparable, at least a bit. I was nothing all that great, but I was still at least 10% faster (same track, same distance, same conditions, same day and time) as World's best women. And once again, unfortunately I was not really all that good, which means World's best men were another 5% (at least) faster.
So I don't care if I was 6' and 150lbs, and women were smaller and lighter or bigger and heavier. In xc skiing, just as in cycling, finishing time is all what matters. And some guys were 190cm and 90kg, some were 160cm and 50kg, and both of these were able to win World cup races.
I'm sure there's hundreds of scientific explanations and researches why is it like this, and if you care, you will go and find them. I don't care, I just wrote what I saw myself, so if we like it or not, unfortunately women can't compete with men when it comes to this.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Not being able to deal with time limits and other such standards has not kept*

women out of sports or jobs when there has been a political will for their presence. Accommodations have been made so that women have been included.


----------



## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

pursuiter said:


> Do you think women are being excluded from the Tour unfairly? Do you think a woman could finish the race? (remember, there's a time limit on each stage, finish late, get DQ'ed.)


1) i don't know. that's why i asked the original question. 2) yes, i think there are some women out there who could finish the race. and they could certainly finish it if they doped like everyone else


----------



## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

shiggy said:


> You REALLY do not get it! In the case of the TdF team, or even getting on a Pro Tour team in the first place, you have to "beat" another rider for the place.
> .


stop continually saying i dont get it. frankly it's insulting, and if you don't understand my basic premise and general inquiry, then you are the one who doesn't get it...


----------



## ScottW (Jan 16, 2004)

*Yjdgi*

...


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

TrekFan said:


> 1) i don't know. that's why i asked the original question. 2) yes, i think there are some women out there who could finish the race. and they could certainly finish it if they doped like everyone else


I think that if there were a woman who could race at the TdF level then the entire world would know about her, as she'd be absolutely _destroying_ any and all competition. She wouldn't need the help of a team, and her story would've been picked up by all womens' magazines in existence, cycling and non-cycling. There's no way a female racer of that caliber would go unnoticed.

So no, I don't think she exists right now. It'd be pretty cool if she did though; I might actually start watching bike racing again.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

TrekFan said:


> 2) yes, i think there are some women out there who could finish the race. and they could certainly finish it if they doped like everyone else


And why do you think they don't use doping? Because women don't dope? 
Just for your info, if you are really so naive or ignorant... doping is not all you need to win race. Doping in endurance sports basically just make it possible to train more. So you still need to train A LOT, if you want to win... or in this case just come through. There's no magic pill which would make couch potato win race... at least not yet.


----------



## hugh088 (Feb 1, 2004)

The real reason why women are not in the TDF......MONEY. It's a big money sport. How many more bikes would TREK have sold it there had been a women riding with LA in the tour. Not just womens bike but a bike for the hubby and kids too when the Mrs. decides biking is for her. TREK unless they are run by morons would have loved it and made a fortune. They have no women on the team because they had to know a women would be DQ'd and that would not sell many bikes of any kind.


----------



## ZoSoSwiM (Dec 2, 2005)

After reading through I have to agree with most of the comments. In college at Champs for swimming my times.. which weren't even top 16 were far better than the first place times the ladies put down. My slow times beat their fast times by a lot. The few girls that have beat me got destroyed by guys that make me look like I'm standing still.
At a Crit I raced in a few weeks ago the womens race was much slower than the other races and these ladies were really fast. Faster than me by far.. but over 2-3 min slower than the faster guys.

I have no shame getting beat by a girl.. but seriously. If they do beat you. Give them respect. They had to work a hell of a lot harder than you.


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

TrekFan said:


> 1) i don't know. that's why i asked the original question. 2) yes, i think there are some women out there who could finish the race. and they could certainly finish it if they doped like everyone else


If a woman could finish the Tour, she'd be entered today. There's no rule, the free coverage alone would drive it. The reason why there's no women in the Tour is that no woman in the world could finish. They'd be DQ'ed on the first climbing stage.

Silly boy, you've been duped by the PC press :thumbsup:


----------



## ZoSoSwiM (Dec 2, 2005)

Hey.. I'm sure there are women out there that could at least finish the tour. Some out there might even be able to rank decently. I'm also sure that 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of women out there are out of this group of people.


----------



## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

What a dumb thread. I want my click back.


----------



## ZoSoSwiM (Dec 2, 2005)

no you can't have it. You fail.


----------



## dnoyeb (Sep 23, 2007)

Its odd that one could say loosing a testicle made Lance better. And at the same time understand how people are doping to try and get better. A testicle is free built in "dope." What woman can compete with that. Especially when men get 2...

I think women can compete but when you consider the benefits of testerone, the deck is stacked against them. Men get more out of their training.


----------



## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*sigh...*

Okay, I'll join this stupid thread.

According to Sports Science News in 1997, the performance gap between men and women at world class levels is 12% and increasing due to increased effectiviness of drug testing for steriods: http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9705/gengap.html. Here's another article from the author: http://home.hia.no/~stephens/gender.htm. Want more reading material? The Google is awesome! You can use it for free, too! Want to pay for peer reviewed scientific information? Here you go, but the study concludes a performance gap of 11% (+- 1.8%): http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14092792

TdF riders must finish within 4-25% of the winning rider's time, depending upon the catagory. (Rules posted below). On an easy, flat stage where the average speed of the winner is under 21 mph, a rider must finish within 4% of the winning time. If the speed of the winner is greater than 30 mph, the riders must finish within 12% of the winner.

There is a high likelyhood that a female rider on a team of nine riders would be eliminated on the first day of the Tour.

On top of that, the entire team would likely be eliminated during a Team Time Trail. At the very least, they couldn't compete for any sort of win.

What part of this don't you understand, TrekFan? A woman in the TdF wouldn't be competing. If she wasn't DQ'd during the flat stages for not keeping up, what "job" would she do for the team? Generally on a team there's a leader and supporting specialists. A woman would be riding just to stave off elimination every single day. How does that help her team? How is she competing? Assuming of course, that she would beat out other elite males to even make the team?

TdF Time Elimination
Riders wishing to stay in the race must finish within a certain percentage of time from the stage winner. The five categories and their cutoff percentages are:

Category 1 - stage with no particular difficulty 
4 percent if the average speed of the winner is 21mph (34kmh) or less 
Up to 12 percent if the average speed of the winner is greater than 30mph (48kmh)

Category 2 - stage presenting medium difficulty 
6 percent if the average speed of the winner is 19mph (31kmh) or less 
Up to 18 percent if the average speed of the winner is greater than 26mph (42kmh)

Category 3 - stage presenting intense difficulty 
5 percent if the average speed of the winner is 15mph (26kmh) or less 
Up to 18 percent if the average speed of the winner is greater than 24mph (38kmh)

Category 4 - individual time trial 
Must be within 25 percent of the winner's time

Category 5 - team time trial 
Fifth man crossing the line must be within 25 percent of winning team's time

Basically, the faster the stage goes, the longer the cutoff time. Also, the harder the stage, the longer the cutoff time. The sprinters tend to calculate the cutoff time for the mountain stages so that they just get in under the time limit. Every once in a while the sprinters get it wrong and the whole group faces elimination. The Tour organizers have put in a codicil to the rule book allowing them to adjust the cutoff time if more than 20 percent of the starters of a particular stage may be eliminated by missing the time cut.


----------



## ArmedMonk (Oct 20, 2007)

*Me too...*

Why are there no female cyclists in the Tour de France?
Richard Littleton, Colorado

Dear Richard:
The Tour de France began in 1903 as a publicity stunt by Henri Desgrange, the editor of L'Auto magazine.

Desgrange limited "the greatest cycling trial in the entire world" to men because he felt the grueling physical demands were too much for female cyclists. The race covers more than 2,500 miles of biking on rough terrain through the Alps, the Massif Central, and the Pyrenees Mountains. Riders must race 23 timed stages for three weeks with only one day of rest.

While not everyone may agree with Desgrange's choice, according to a University of Luton professor, female bikers are at a physical disadvantage due to biological factors such as size, body fat distribution, and biomechanical differences.

There is, however, a women's Tour de France, called the Grande Boucle Feminine Internationale. The race features 14 timed stages covering 870 miles, beginning on the island of Corsica and ending in Paris. The women behind the wheels have to be as tough and determined as their male counterparts to finish the race.

And here is a link to this years stages and results: http://www.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/2008/jun08/lgbf08/default


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Well, in road, you have the odd Pro woman who up gives the men a thrashing. It was Katie Compton the last couple years. At any given Cyclocross race, she'd race the open, win, race the pro women, win, and then place in the pro men, who were all freshly enjoying their first event of the day.

In MTB-land, you had Julie Furtado and Missy Giove, both of whose times regularly kicked the pants of 99% of the worlds top pro men.

But, we are talking about a tiiiiny smattering of individuals that have been able to compete on this level (and that's still not the TdF, though, Julie Furtado may have been an interesting candidate...). Until it becomes more commonplace, women will likely continue to compete against other women, and receive less support, have less chance of making cycling a career, etc... the whole kit pretty much retards itself, not out of one of Pursuiters right-wing wet-dreams, but because the fastest races are what people want to see, and thus what companies want to advertise in.


----------



## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

HotBlack said:


> Well, in road, you have the odd Pro woman who up gives the men a thrashing. It was Katie Compton the last couple years. At any given Cyclocross race, she'd race the open, win, race the pro women, win, and then place in the pro men, who were all freshly enjoying their first event of the day.
> 
> In MTB-land, you had Julie Furtado and Missy Giove, both of whose times regularly kicked the pants of 99% of the worlds top pro men.
> 
> But, we are talking about a tiiiiny smattering of individuals that have been able to compete on this level (and that's still not the TdF, though, Julie Furtado may have been an interesting candidate...). Until it becomes more commonplace, women will likely continue to compete against other women, and receive less support, have less chance of making cycling a career, etc... the whole kit pretty much retards itself, not out of one of Pursuiters right-wing wet-dreams, but because the fastest races are what people want to see, and thus what companies want to advertise in.


Allison Dunlap used to do the same thing. But not at national or international events. Katie Compton wouldn't win at the CX Nationals or Supercup in the men's pro level.

Missy Giove was a great DHer. But she never competed against men at the national or international level.

Compare Julie Furtado's times on the same course as the men of her era. Pick one: Ned Overend. She also didn't compete against men.

So we're clear: They're all stud hammers. They would kick most riders all over the trail. But at a TdF level, they can't compete with men.


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

TrekFan said:


> stop continually saying i dont get it. frankly it's insulting, and if you don't understand my basic premise and general inquiry, then you are the one who doesn't get it...


Your basic premise is flawed beacause _*you do not get it!*_ If you find that insulting, so be it. I am thinking worse.


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

HotBlack said:


> Well, in road, you have the odd Pro woman who up gives the men a thrashing. It was Katie Compton the last couple years. At any given Cyclocross race, she'd race the open, win, race the pro women, win, and then place in the pro men, who were all freshly enjoying their first event of the day.
> 
> In MTB-land, you had Julie Furtado and Missy Giove, both of whose times regularly kicked the pants of 99% of the worlds top pro men.
> 
> But, we are talking about a tiiiiny smattering of individuals that have been able to compete on this level (and that's still not the TdF, though, Julie Furtado may have been an interesting candidate...). Until it becomes more commonplace, women will likely continue to compete against other women, and receive less support, have less chance of making cycling a career, etc... the whole kit pretty much retards itself, not out of one of Pursuiters right-wing wet-dreams, but because the fastest races are what people want to see, and thus what companies want to advertise in.


Ken is correct. The world class women you cite were competing in the mens races in local/regional events, not against world class male fields.


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Ken in KC said:


> Allison Dunlap...


Oh that's right, Allison too.

But yeah, that was my point. It's so few women whose times are even competitive with the men, I doubt the UCI would mix the sexes unless something drastic trend develops, and women want ask for it.

...Well sure, you can say compare times with Ned Overend (& of course the other half, John Tomac). But you're talking about probably the two fastest people who ever raced mountain bikes, and when you compare _anyone's_ times with Overend & Tomac, there's always a huge gap. Behind N.O. & J.T., was everyone else. Julie's _times_ were pretty regularly at the top of the everyone else's, but then, that was also off-road, and who knows how much of that would have translated to road. She was a total animal and a maverick, and a lot more like middle-era Lance than probably even Lance was. Still, Tomac himself went nowhere as a roadie on 7-11, which made everyone think that maybe MTB gods weren't in quite the same league as the roadies after all, but then an increasing number of top roadies saw it, and reached for the seemingly low-hanging fruit of MTB racing, and equally failed to be competitive.

I guess the whole damn thing is a pig-toss. Perhaps an existential approach. Women don't race in the TdF, because right now, there are no women racing in the TdF. Yes, that makes much more sense.


----------



## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*But that's the point*



HotBlack said:


> Oh that's right, Allison too.
> 
> But yeah, that was my point. It's so few women whose times are even competitive with the men, I doubt the UCI would mix the sexes unless something drastic trend develops, and women want ask for it.
> 
> ...


Comparing apples to apples: Elite women to elite men, the men win. Compare Julie Furtado's times to the top 10 male finishers on the same course in national or international races. Where does she place? Not on the podium. Likely not in the top 10.

Women don't ride the TdF because they can't make a team that would qualify for the Tour. They would be beaten out by the men competing for the spot on those teams.


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

shiggy said:


> Ken is correct. The world class women you cite were competing in the mens races in local/regional events, not against world class male fields.


Erm, to be fair, those local/regional events were in Colorado, and are indeed usually raced by world-class males, whether local, or in town training with their teams.

...at the same, I saw a 15 year old boy from Germany on vacation with his family absolutely destroy an entire field of the same, on a borrowed, ill-fitting singlespeed, before pulling off the course at the line and letting Tim J win it.

If you guys are looking for a definitive black and white argument, I don't think you're going to get one from anyone. I'm not saying Katie should have raced the TdF. Just pointing out how rare it is that womens times even compare with men at all. If you've got to talk in absolutes, then no, it's not an impossibility, it just hasn't happened. If you want to put a "yet" on the end of that, go right ahead.


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Ken in KC said:


> Comparing apples to apples: Elite women to elite men, the men win. Compare Julie Furtado's times to the top 10 male finishers on the same course in national or international races. Where does she place? Not on the podium. Likely not in the top 10.
> 
> Women don't ride the TdF because they can't make a team that would qualify for the Tour. They would be beaten out by the men competing for the spot on those teams.


I'd agree with the second half of your post, but I'm sticking with my (admittedly hazy) recollections of remarking that Julies times put her placing in the mens, over the 92-94 seasons, when I travelled with the NCS/WCS show.

No, I have no results to look at now. 

You could be right.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

HotBlack said:


> the fastest races are what people want to see...


Not necessarily. I think people (at least Americans) want the best _story_, the most moving drama. Give us an underdog or fish-out-of-water story and everybody goes crazy. "Local hero battles insurmountable odds" type narratives give people someone to root for, even if he or she is unlikely to win (e.g., Danika Patrick, US Womens' World Cup soccer team, 1980 US men's Olympic hockey team, 2000 Olympic wrestler Rulon Gardner, Thomas Voeckler in the 2004 TdF).

If there were a female who had half a chance of surviving the TdF then I bet the public would eat up the tale of her quest, even if she didn't realistically have a shot at the podium.


----------



## ArmedMonk (Oct 20, 2007)

*Hmmm...*

Apples vs Oranges = MTB vs Tour de France............. there is no comparison! Just stop the chatter! Y'all need to get over it! There is an event just for women. The UCI and all of the governing bodies of the bike racing world have classifications and rules. So WTF cares that women are not in the TDF? Not me. If they were, that would be cool, but they aren't, so that is even better. The women have their own race, where they race against other women. Let it be&#8230; The past few years have been very bad for the TDF. They've lost allot of fan base. Good thing that the women weren't involved in that sh*t! :madmax: :madmax: :madmax:


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

*Now that is what I call a quality post.*



ArmedMonk said:


> Apples vs Oranges = MTB vs Tour de France............. there is no comparison! Just stop the chatter!


Anything else you'd like us to stop talking about? Just imagine how special it will be, coming here and see no one talking about things you don't prefer to read.



ArmedMonk said:


> Y'all need to get over it! There is an event just for women. The UCI and all of the governing bodies of the bike racing world have classifications and rules.


And shoes have laces and birds have wings. Or was there a point in this?



ArmedMonk said:


> So WTF cares that women are not in the TDF? Not me.


So, you don't care, but you're reading and posting and getting emotional in a thread about it? Just really bored, or...?



ArmedMonk said:


> If they were, that would be cool, but they aren't, so that is even better.


What?

blah blah blah...

Racing is pointless. Talking about racing even moreso.


----------



## TrekFan (Apr 21, 2005)

shiggy said:


> Your basic premise is flawed beacause _*you do not get it!*_ If you find that insulting, so be it. I am thinking worse.


what, that i'm an idiot because i dare to ask (what i thought to be) a simple question and don't buy your argument? wow

you guys are comparing tdf riders to linebackers in football and hang your hat on the notion that a woman can't compete because of physical differences, when clearly there has to be more to it since many women stand toe to toe and pound for pound with the vast majority of tdf riders. i knew many women on the amateur bodybuilding circuit who would take these riders apart with very little effort and would be able to actually toss some of them a fair distance...

to be honest, the only point that made any sense at all was the person who mentioned that women would be at a disadvantage due to not being able to pee while riding. simple point, but i see it as being a big disadvantage. sure there are ways around it, but it would still be a problem.

anyway, i see how it is. i come to mtbr to have fun and learn, not to get hammered, insulted and be outnumbered in a topic 50 to 1. honestly i'm shocked that nobody here thinks (rules aside) that a woman could successfully compete (both physically and mentally) in the tdf, at least theoretically. good thing these frail, delicate flowers have strong burly men like you (i.e. road cyclists) to protect them and keep them out of harm's way. topic dropped


----------



## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

That's because women belong in the kitchen. Shut up and go make me a sandwich.


----------



## Fat Chick (Jul 9, 2008)

Same old, same old. Whenever a woman beats a man in a world class event (ultraendurance, climbing, tennis, what have you) there's a "reason" or "excuse" from the dudes who can't perform to the same level. 

"It's an extraordinary event"
"the men were at a disadvantage" 
"she has small fingers" (remember Lynn Hill?)
"she's a freak of nature"
etc.
etc.
etc.

The TDF is irrelevant to anything because it's a drug competition, not an athletic competition. 

Women have not had the opportunity (and still don't) to develop athletic skills at a young age like men have had. As more young girls and women start athletics young, the performance gap will certainly close. Certain body type issues will always be there; i.e. I'll never be as fast on the downhill as someone who outweighs me by 100lbs, but that's really got nothing to do with gender. A woman who outweighs me by 100lbs will pass me on the downhill just as effectively as a dude who outweighs me by 100lbs. 

Pound for pound I am just as good and usually better at sports than a dude my size. 99% of the time I'm stronger, especially in the legs. I've never seen a guy my size who can lift what I can. So blah blah blah about how dudes are inherently stronger; any serious female athlete knows it's not true. Women are usually smaller and that's about all the generalities you can make. Statistics based on centuries of oppression are hardly indicative of the true athletic capabilities of women. If I go fishing and catch more fish than a guy, the guy will probably bust out with a bunch of "reasons" why it happened, and the "reason" is never "she was better." Most dudes are the same in this regard and this thread is no different.

But it makes dudes feel better to hang out on the net and talk about how male dopebags are faster at biking than women riders. It makes dudes feel better to talk about how there's always an explanation for why they got beat by a woman. So carry on.


----------



## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

Fat Chick said:


> The TDF is irrelevant to anything because it's a drug competition, not an athletic competition.
> 
> But it makes dudes feel better to hang out on the net and talk about how male dopebags are faster at biking than women riders. It makes dudes feel better to talk about how there's always an explanation for why they got beat by a woman. So carry on.


Ummm.... pretty much every pro-level athletic event is a doping ceremony. What, you think Olympians are making it on their genetics? PLEASE. To win today you have to have the genes, the talent, the practice AND the juice. It's just a constant game of cat/mouse between the designer drug makers and the authorities to stay one step ahead of the testing curve.

I mean even baseball has steroids. Baseball, which is essentially a bunch of tobacco chewing fatties running around the diamond. I can't think of any sport that requires less effort and yet even here they're all looking for an edge. That's what happens when you dangle millions of dollars, the pressure to win becomes enormous.

And yes, the women are just as guilty as the men. Do try to remember that the last time an olympian was stripped of a gold medal it was a she and not a he. So you can continue to bag on the accomplishments of male atheletes because they dope, but do realize that if women are losing to men it isn't because they stay clean. They lose because even doped up they are less physically capable. Big deal... the female of the species usually is smaller and getting angry at biology isn't going to accomplish anything. But plenty of women manage to train themselves into stellar examples who can handily beat 98% of the guys on this forum.

Having said all that I think there have been a lot of ignoramuses on this thread talking a lot of trash against women. You all need to stop hating because it only let's the world know that your penis is embarrassingly short. There are many ways to state the facts like a gentleman without behaving like a piece of garbage. But if trash is what you want to be then I ain't gonna wallow in the mud trying to convince the pigs otherwise... :thumbsup:


----------



## ZoSoSwiM (Dec 2, 2005)

Hey.. I really want to believe that some riders are clean. Honestly. It's a nice thought. If slipstream, Astana, and Columbia are clean like they say that they are then power to them


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Fat Chick said:


> Same old, same old. Whenever a woman beats a man in a world class event (ultraendurance, climbing, tennis, what have you) there's a "reason" or "excuse" from the dudes who can't perform to the same level.


I have no idea about "ultraendurance" sports, because I just don't follow ridiculous sports like Badwater ultra marathon, RAAM etc. I know I know, please do jump on me tell me how hard those things are. After being so long in "normal" sport, I have my opinion about sports where 5 people on World are competing in.
But for every other sport you mentioned, men beat women anytime they compete. With free climbing competitions, men routes are at least 1 degree (or whatever is right expression in English for this) harder then women routes. I don't climb, but I shoot a bit of it, so I know at least few basics. 
With tennis... I bet some Venus Williams can beat some average player, but she has no chances against Federer for example.



Fat Chick said:


> The TDF is irrelevant to anything because it's a drug competition, not an athletic competition.


So basically any other sport, from 100m running, through xco mtb to swimming or gymnastics are irrelevant too. In top level sport, there's no clean sport anymore. But I agree UCI is handling those things idiotic way, so in public, who doesn't have inside informations, it looks like everything else is fine except cycling.



Fat Chick said:


> Pound for pound I am just as good and usually better at sports than a dude my size. 99% of the time I'm stronger, especially in the legs. I've never seen a guy my size who can lift what I can.


Now this is really irrelevant. I'm sure you have never met someone who weights same as you, and can lift as much as you. But TdF is not your world, TdF is different world where World's top athletes are competing. This means you wouldn't be competing against your neighbor, who's main sport is pressing buttons on remote control, but against World's best riders. I'm sure you are faster and stronger then your neighbor, your friends etc. but if you like it or not, women still can't compare with same level men athletes. Once again... I was in xc skiing for long enough to see that. I was far from top racer on World, but I never had problems being at least 10% faster then World's best women skiers... on same track and under same conditions. If this doesn't mean anything to you, then please go and check comparable results like 100m running World record with men and with women, 50,100,200 or 400m swimming competitions and World records in men and women category, or track cycling World records for men and women. You will see not even one single women record is anywhere close to men records.


----------



## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Your opinion and science are not aligned...*



Fat Chick said:


> Same old, same old. Whenever a woman beats a man in a world class event (ultraendurance, climbing, tennis, what have you) there's a "reason" or "excuse" from the dudes who can't perform to the same level.
> 
> "It's an extraordinary event"
> "the men were at a disadvantage"
> ...


The case studies associated with gender gaps in sports have concluded that the physiological performance gap between men and women is coming back in to a standard norm (12%) from a smaller gap because (dramatic pause)..... improved drug testingmeant that women couldn't dope with anabolic steriods so their performance was dropping back.


----------



## afie (Aug 28, 2006)

TrekFan said:


> what, that i'm an idiot because i dare to ask (what i thought to be) a simple question and don't buy your argument? wow
> 
> you guys are comparing tdf riders to linebackers in football and hang your hat on the notion that a woman can't compete because of physical differences, when clearly there has to be more to it since many women stand toe to toe and pound for pound with the vast majority of tdf riders. i knew many women on the amateur bodybuilding circuit who would take these riders apart with very little effort and would be able to actually toss some of them a fair distance...
> 
> ...


I hope you are trolling, because otherwise you have pointed out you are a complete idiot. Have you even read some of these posts? Quite clearly several posters have outlined clear scientific reasons why there is a ~10% diference in these events, and you have made no attempt to refute, or even discuss these factors. You are being insulted because of this refusal to acknowledge not just an overweighing consensus, but any quantifiable evidence that is presented.

Just for you, hoping you will read this and be able to answer your OP by yourself:
The difference in performance across most power-endurance sports has proven to be a function of maximal oxygen uptake. Women have lower vo2max values due to higher body fat, smaller hearts (that dont increase in size like males do in response to cardio training), smaller lungs and lower blood hemoglobin. Women and men have similar power outputs when you are comparing bodies with equal muscle mass, but women cannot achieve the same muscle mass as a man due to higher body fat (point out any women that race comfortably at 5%).
Now when you are comparing multi day events where recovery is a major factor, men have higher testosterone levels, an anabolic agent that acts just like "steroids" to grow and repair muscles.
Compare the winners of any years world champs, male and female. The womans program will have roughly 10% less volume than the mans, due to the effect of testosterone.

Hey Fatchick: good first post. Any reason why you chose not to address the original post on professional racers, and add your opinion on males creating ficticious scientific studies to provide "excuses" for the times when females are faster? And could you elaborate on these instances when a woman has beaten a man in a world class event?


----------



## mtymxdh (Jan 14, 2005)

*Couldn't this be done like...*

hi, hello all!

Couldn't this be done like LeMans 24 hours?

they race in the same event but with different categories... LMP (prototype) LMP1 and LMP2 divided by weight, speed and power.. and GT 1 & 2.... and so...

so there would be a _"malliot jaune"_ for men and another one for women

edit:

... and then I fell out of the bed and woke up...


----------



## Scooby-doo (Jul 26, 2004)

*24 hours of Spokane. I cannot remember all of the guys....*

that were there doing this race solo it was about 3 yrs ago but Rebecca Rush won the overall. Beating guys, gals, little kids and teams. Pretty sure that is a Endurance event and she is a woman. It was impressive to watch. There are a few out there. Kristin Armstrong was impressive to watch at the Cascade Classic.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Scooby-doo said:


> Kristin Armstrong was impressive to watch at the Cascade Classic.


Speaking of Kristin Armstrong and the CCC, the 2008 race just wrapped up yesterday. 
Overall Levi Leipheimer won the mens' race and Kristin the womens'.

In Friday's time trial the women rode the same 14 mile course as the men, so maybe that particular race is a good place to compare:


Levi Leipheimer won the mens' category at 28 minutes 8 seconds.
Kristin Armstrong won the womens' category at 31:55.
Her time would've placed her 58th out of 140 men.

Time Trials might be a good place to look for comparisons, as there are no team tactics, no drafting, and therefore called "the race of truth."


----------

