# Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Hello VRC,

I've been wanting to do this for quite a while, and I am optimistic I am finally going to be able to do it. 

Back in '95, I bought a beautiful Pearl White WTB Phoenix (standard edition, suspension corrected) as a high school graduation present from my parents. It was a truly wonderful bike built with a mix of XC-Pro, New Paradigm, and a rolling assortment of other accessories. It handled the Alaskan trails around my house beautifully in winter and summer for a couple years, and even carried me on an Alaska -> Oregon bike tour with 4 dutch guys when I transferred to an out of state university. Despite the increased mud and much more technical terrain, the bike was still awesome, although I was affectionately known as "endo king" for my propensity for going over the front (i'll blame the 140mm stem).

I've had AMP forks, Judys, a Type II, and even a Noleen Crosslink on that bike. Scoff all you want, that crosslink was an awesome fork for my riding and I liked it a lot (so much so that i even had a local builder roll out the fork induced dents :madman: and move the cable stops back to better work with the fork). The frame was nicely repainted by my dad a sort of midnight blue, which I immediately dented up again. I guess in retrospect, that fork was a bad decision for this bike.

...
Time passes and the Phoenix slowly fades from ride circulation for a variety of reasons. It has been waiting patiently in a series of garages or storage places for 7 or 8 years, coming out to play every once in a while.

I now live in California again (and will for the foreseeable future), where the Phoenix will shine. My plan is to do a sort of nuevo-retro thing. I want to put a rollercam on the back and a nice quality period correct V-brake up front on a modern 80mm fork, putting as much of the xc-pro & new paradigm stuff back on that i can scrounge up. This is definitely going to be a rider and I hope to explore a lot of central coast trails on the resurrected Phoenix.

So my first step is to contact Steve Potts who I spoke to back in 2007 about this frame, and who was willing to replace the jacked up front triangle then. Unfortunately, at the time my wallet wasn't so into the idea. Things are a little different now, and I e-mailed him on Tuesday, but have yet to hear back (is that typical?).

I'm not really asking any questions, but just kind of sharing a bit of my excitement that I hope will be realized sometime in the not too distant future.

-Damon


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

awesome.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Where in California are you?

I restomod'ed my Phoenix and its easily the best bike I've ever ridden. Good luck on your resto!


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

I want your type 2.....


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Where in California are you?
> I restomod'ed my Phoenix and its easily the best bike I've ever ridden. Good luck on your resto!


I think I'm not too far from you. I'm in Monterey, CA.

Rumpfy - that is a dead sexy bike. Clearly i'm biased, but i like that, a LOT. I could dig the disk on front, but i have a new paradigm hubset that is begging to be put on it (and honestly for around here, I am totally fine with rim brakes, and like the simplicity).

Aemmer - Sorry, it be sold already. It is hopefully funding this pseudo-restoration.

General question: Is Steve Potts usually good about the e-mail? I'm just wondering how long I should wait before I try to get in touch with him again... Maybe if i get deperate, i'll stalk him at NAHBS in Sacramento...


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

GMF said:


> General question: Is Steve Potts usually good about the e-mail? I'm just wondering how long I should wait before I try to get in touch with him again... Maybe if i get deperate, i'll stalk him at NAHBS in Sacramento...


If you're not having luck contacting Steve, send an e-mail or call Mikes at Black Mountain Cycles: Black Mountain Cycles

Mike deals with Steve very often and many of Steve's bikes go through him. He's a good contact for Potts repairs.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

Aemmer said:


>


Great pic T...makes me really chomp at the bit to get back on my bikes.

Steve


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## 993rs (Dec 31, 2005)

I think resto-mods are great! Just updated my '96 Slingshot this fall. Signed myself and three boys up for the Iceman race in Traverse City and wanted to run the Sling. 

Had the local shop build a pair of NOS XTR hubs with Stan's 355s so I could go tubeless.
Also went with a 1x9 XTR drivetrain. It's my favorite ride now. A lot of guys got a
kick out of it at the race.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

GMF said:


> I think I'm not too far from you. I'm in Monterey, CA.
> 
> Rumpfy - that is a dead sexy bike. Clearly i'm biased, but i like that, a LOT. I could dig the disk on front, but i have a new paradigm hubset that is begging to be put on it (and honestly for around here, I am totally fine with rim brakes, and like the simplicity).
> 
> ...


Thanks man. Based on what you were staying you wanted to do, I think Aemmer's and my Phoeni lean more towards your goal. Others here have far more period correct Phoenix.

That said, I think you might find Roller/Toggle Cam and V-Brake combo to be difficult to feel and perform the way it should. Its actually how I came to run disc brakes up front.

Roller cams work best with cantilever specific brake levers (I'm running M900 XTR). I also wanted a good feeling/performing fork. An older fork that has a cantilever brake hanger like a Judy are..only ok feeling forks. A newer fork with brake mounts limits you to v-brakes...which won't pair up well with your RC's or your canti-brake levers.

So for me I ended up with a road bike disc brake up front. The pull works perfect with cantilever brake levers. The feel and modulation is really similar front and back Plus it allows me to run a newer fork with disc and/or a disc only fork.

At any rate, just my experience with it...might be an option for you or give you more options.

And ya, I'm close just up the way in San Jose. A bunch of us locals here on the VRC have a Phoenix actually. No better bike out there.


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

GMF said:


> General question: Is Steve Potts usually good about the e-mail? I'm just wondering how long I should wait before I try to get in touch with him again... Maybe if i get deperate, i'll stalk him at NAHBS in Sacramento...


It does take Steve awhile to get back to you sometimes and he is very busy with work so repairs can take a year or so for turn around- but it sound like you have a great project so it would definitely be worth the wait as long as you have something else to ride in the mean time.

Did you live or ride in Corvallis, OR for a while?


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thank you for all that experience based information, Rumpfy. I had a few ideas on how to address the different cable pulls front and back. The first and easiest idea was to use a set of older Avid sd2.0 canti levers (I think that is what they are). Not super high end, but work well and feel pretty nice. I've used them on canti's, Vs, and disks, and they work surprisingly well across all three (least satisfied with them matched to BB7 disks, but work great with some generic avid Vs on my commuter). Another costlier option was to see about buying mis-matched Paul's Love Levers, and just get the right pull on the right side. And the final thought was to play with some scrap aluminum sheet and see about making a V-friendly cam. That last option clearly has the highest chance of frustration/failure, but I'm not scared of a project... 

Do any of you know if C Cunningham is still making brakes? I get the gist that he is, but it seems like a one-off "maybe" kind of a thing... Probably out my budget anyway :-/

Laffeaux, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm pretty keen on Potts doing it. If, for whatever reason that doesn't work out, I'll definitely look them up. 

993rs, I bet that sling is awesome. My cross/roadie bike is a slingshot, but one of the generic made in china ones - no cool cable+spring for me...


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

stan lee said:


> Did you live or ride in Corvallis, OR for a while?


Good to know about Mr. Potts. I just need to be patient. I do have another mtb, my '03 Kona Dawg, which is totally different from the Phoenix, but still a lot of fun. It was just much better suited for the trails I was riding when I lived in Vancouver, Canada.

Your Corvallis question is a little surprising. Yeah, I went to OSU in Corvallis between '97 and 2000 earning my mechanical engineering degree and enjoying the trails around there. So, uh... Why do you ask?


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

GMF said:


> Your Corvallis question is a little surprising. Yeah, I went to OSU in Corvallis between '97 and 2000 earning my mechanical engineering degree and enjoying the trails around there. So, uh... Why do you ask?


 Small world- we went on a couple of rides together. I was a mechanic at Cyclotopia- I don't remember if I had my Phoenix with me in Corvallis or not...I think I did. I remember a few conversations about your bike and the following of WTB/Steve/Charlie in AK. I may of been riding a Ritchey at that time......

-Mark


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

stan lee said:


> Small world-


Small world indeed! Cyclotopia was a very cool shop - i really liked the bikes and the vibe in there, still one of my favorites. I'm pretty sure you did have that phoenix there - let me test my notoriously poor memory: Foresty green, roller cam bosses (?) 140 rear dropout spacing, and i think 120 up front? Or am i just making sheeit up? Admitedly, I always felt like I was wasting your time whenever I was in there because I had no money - but I guess that is par for the course in a college town like Corvallis.

Do you remember the guy who made all those killer B. bags? I still have one that i use every day.

The Alaska WTB connection is an odd one, and definitely the only reason I own a Phoenix. Otherwise, I would probably be waxing on about a Fat Chance Buck Shaver. The shop that sold those were jerks, though. The guy who I bought my bike from, Rick Shaw, knew all sorts of old school bike people from Cali, and had some really cool Mantis and Ibis stuff, too.

... wow, the people you run into on the internet :thumbsup:

-Damon


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

GMF said:


> Do you remember the guy who made all those killer B. bags? I still have one that i use every day.


Lol- funny stuff.....I just walked in from the store.










Chris Cole is his name- I don't think there is a nicer guy out there plus he is a complete genius. I've used my bag daily/weekly since 2000 without issue. Him and Sweat Pea started making those before anyone. He lives in Bend now and is making these absolutely amazing kinetic sculptures out of bike parts:

Chris Cole Designs - Kinetic Sculptures Paintings and Sketches by Chris Cole Designs

Barry Wicks was also working a Cyclotopia at that time and he now races for Kona and recently won the Transrockies which is pretty crazy. Corvallis is an incredible little town with amazing trails that few seem to know about.



GMF said:


> let me test my notoriously poor memory: Foresty green, roller cam bosses (?) 140 rear dropout spacing, and i think 120 up front? Or am i just making sheeit up?


:thumbsup: I'm impressed! I really wish I had a photo of it from those days- it was/is a perfect bike for the trails around there. A few years back I decided to pay my respect and I found an XT groupo and had it painted- someday it will ride again. This is how it sits at a friends shop in NE.












GMF said:


> The guy who I bought my bike from, Rick Shaw, knew all sorts of old school bike people from Cali, and had some really cool Mantis and Ibis stuff, too.


I remember you saying that and I know of a couple other people that mentioned it- it makes me think there may be a shop up there somewhere with a nice stash of old stuff to dig through. 

Feel free to send me an email if you want- I don't want to derail your thread anymore than I already have..

[email protected]


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

GMF said:


> Back in '95, I bought a beautiful Pearl White WTB Phoenix (standard edition, suspension corrected) as a high school graduation present from my parents.


Back in 76 we didn't have MTB's. So, I got a Cross pen set. Somehow I feel cheated. Good luck on the project.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

stan lee said:


> Lol- funny stuff.....I just walked in from the store.
> 
> Chris Cole is his name- I don't think there is a nicer guy out there plus he is a complete genius. I've used my bag daily/weekly since 2000 without issue. Him and Sweat Pea started making those before anyone. He lives in Bend now and is making these absolutely amazing kinetic sculptures out of bike parts:
> 
> ...


Hey, and Barry Wicks now lives in the Monterey Bay area (Santa Cruz).

Did someone say Phoenix? Did somoene say Monterey?




























Best time of the year for riding here is fall-spring. Be happy to show you some of the local stuff if you like semi-difficult/demanding singletrack and don't mind long climbs.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Give SP time, he even responds to DH's like me.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

This thread is making me want a Phoenix.


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

yo-Nate-y said:


> This thread is making me want a Phoenix.


Here is the other beat one in our family.


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## Machianera (Feb 5, 2011)

Rumpfy said:


> Where in California are you?
> 
> I restomod'ed my Phoenix and its easily the best bike I've ever ridden. Good luck on your resto!


that is my favourite phoenix. does it have a metal wtb badge in the front?


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## utahdog2003 (Jul 8, 2004)

yo-Nate-y said:


> This thread is making me want a Phoenix.


Meh!


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## utahdog2003 (Jul 8, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Thanks man... I also wanted a good feeling/performing fork.


What fork is that, Rumpfy?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

This thread gives me warm fuzzy feelings!


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

what's not to love about Phoenixes? You can set it up any way you want. I can't bear to change out my awesome performing shifters and derailleurs. Not too many period correct ones here anyways.


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## utahdog2003 (Jul 8, 2004)

girlonbike said:


> what's not to love about Phoenixes? You can set it up any way you want. I can't bear to change out my awesome performing shifters and derailleurs. Not too many period correct ones here anyways.


That cute little thing looks like a 29er.

Phoenixes? Phoenii?


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

utahdog2003 said:


> That cute little thing looks like a 29er.


You're right. I've always thought so too.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

utahdog2003 said:


> That cute little thing looks like a 29er.
> 
> Phoenixes? Phoenii?


only poseurs say Phoenii.

Also, it's Mantises.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

utahdog2003 said:


> That cute little thing looks like a 29er.


I was thinking the same thing. 

I really like the two-tone paint on the fork on that bike, G. It definitely makes it stand out.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Those skewer handles look big enough to use for self defense if needed


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## utahdog2003 (Jul 8, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> only poseurs say Phoenii.
> 
> Also, it's Mantises.


I like Phoenii. I get confused by words with an 'X' in them. I am from the South.

Wasn't Mantise a French Impressionist?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Machianera said:


> that is my favourite phoenix. does it have a metal wtb badge in the front?


It's a 'pre-badge' bike. After the respray, I only put two decals on it. I have enough flashy bikes...I wanted the fastest one to be stealth. /thread hijack.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> only poseurs say Phoenii.


and only posers spell poseurs that way


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## utahdog2003 (Jul 8, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> /thread hijack.


Oh sure! AFTER posting 4 pictures of your Phoenix you find the high-road. I see how it is...:skep:


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

wv_bob said:


> and only posers spell poseurs that way


well, with that particular spelling I meant the highest level of the disorder. 

Pull this thread back onto the tracks, G! :thumbsup:

Might need to retitle this one!


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Might need to retitle this one!


I suggest "Phoenix Owners Gone Wild!"


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## Boy named SSue (Jan 7, 2004)

yo-Nate-y said:


> This thread is making me want a Phoenix.


Me too.


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## Machianera (Feb 5, 2011)

It may benefit a repaint but i can't cope loosing the decals.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

hahahahaha. I need one of those f%^&* phoenixes or phoenii


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

utahdog2003 said:


> What fork is that, Rumpfy?


that's a 63mm travel sid xc.


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

It's actually 64mm.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

I prefer this style:


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

utahdog2003 said:


> What fork is that, Rumpfy?


Hippietech tuned SID. 63mm of travel.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Hey, and Barry Wicks now lives in the Monterey Bay area (Santa Cruz).
> 
> Did someone say Phoenix? Did somoene say Monterey?
> ...
> Best time of the year for riding here is fall-spring. Be happy to show you some of the local stuff if you like semi-difficult/demanding singletrack and don't mind long climbs.


That sounds like a lot of fun. My current mountain bike was my "pretend like i can ride the North Shore" bike when i was up in Canada, and now I am mostly riding road, so those two riding conditions are right up my alley. I'll set a Phoenix ride as one of my goals for completing this bike.

Here are a few pics of the sorry state of my little bike. Artistically extra depressing looking via bad cell phone pics. '94 model I bought early '95 (winter in Alaska... I had it as a frame only for a couple months before i finished building it up. I remember watching TV with it just sitting in my lap sometimes).

It has the late model graphics (i prefer earlier), and the head badge (which I like more). You can also see some of the dents - i think there are like 4 or 5 dents in the frame. It is pretty beat up, but rides well. It just makes me sad to look at it :bluefrown:.

I'd also like to say :thumbsup:THANK YOU:thumbsup: to all the people who have been posting here, e-mailing and p-mailing me with information and help. As i've been sharing this thread and my enthusiasm for this project with my wife, she has upped my budget to something I sure as heck hope is enough to get it done... I won't have enough to pimp it out, but there should be enough to make it a very happy trail bike. The tentative goal is to have the frame done by Christmas, as she wants to have something wrapped under the tree for me (this is eating up my xmas budget, for sure!). So as long as I can get a hold of Mr. Potts relatively soon, i hope that can happen... but I am sure he has a wait list and his own life to lead, so fingers crossed.

Thanks again, and I'm digging all the Phoenix love.

-Damon


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

Barry moved to Chicago. And phoenixes rule.


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

GMF said:


> The tentative goal is to have the frame done by Christmas,


Christmas 2012 is a good goal, seriously.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Yes, unfortunately, that's a more likely scenario. The guy is really, really busy and he's got a million projects going on and a lot of it is not related to biking. I think you should just build it up and ride it in the meantime and enjoy our lovely winters. Brr...so cold today.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

DoubleCentury said:


> Christmas 2012 is a good goal, seriously.


Sigh... I'm sure you are right...


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

girlonbike said:


> Yes, unfortunately, that's a more likely scenario. The guy is really, really busy and he's got a million projects going on and a lot of it is not related to biking. I think you should just build it up and ride it in the meantime and enjoy our lovely winters. Brr...so cold today.


yep, agree on the SP timeline. Even a year could be pretty optimistic.

But, if it doesn't have to be done by Potts, Rick Hunter and Paul Sadoff are close and quicker.

Then just add a fourth name to the seat tube.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Haha! Marin time Damon....2012. Sorry buddy.


Count me in on that Monterey all Pheonix ride. Having ridden with Fillet-brazed out there, bring your A-game. Really fun network of trials.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Rumpfy said:


> Really fun network of trials.


Followed by a guilty verdict and the firing line.


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## 805MTB (Jul 4, 2010)

yo-Nate-y said:


> This thread is making me want a Phoenix.


Exactly my thoughts. 
Folks, please keep your eyes out for a really big Phoenix for me. I think we saw an XL yellow one awhile back that rumpfy said would fit me.

I'll prolly have to get a custom seatpost or something


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## dirtdrop (Dec 29, 2003)

My Phoenix. Such a nice ride! Good luck with the rebuild.


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)




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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

I like them Phoenii


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## benwitt11 (May 1, 2005)

A Phoenix with drop bars is a must have for me. Might take a while. Some gorgeous bikes in this thread.


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## datawhacker (Dec 23, 2004)

hopefully ti phoenixes still count


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

i like that beat up pink SS. loads of personality...


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I love Phoenixes. Anybody know why Potts used such huge seat tubes?


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

You mean huge seat posts? So that everyone can ride the wrong size bike. Obviously.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Vlad said:


> I love Phoenixes. Anybody know why Potts used such huge seat tubes?


In all seriousness, it is about a noticeable improvement in vertical compliance. My 15" Phoenix was way more comfy than my 21" KHS.


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

Vlad said:


> Anybody know why Potts used such huge seat tubes?


At the time Steve typically didn't use oversized ST's but Charlie did for strength, comfort and to save weight (smaller frame/thinner tubing). They did it on the Phoenix so that Charlie's name wouldn't wrap all the way around the small ST (and for the reasons above).


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

GMF said:


> In all seriousness, it is about a noticeable improvement in vertical compliance. My 15" Phoenix was way more comfy than my 21" KHS.


does that mean a Ritchey is uncomfortable? A Yo Eddy also has aslopping top tube and it is not "comfortable".. I can't see a 30.6 aluminum seatpost flexing.
I believe comfort comes from mostly from thinner walled small diameter tubes. Standover clearance gives the bike a lower center of gravity and gives the rider room to throw his body around.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

stan lee said:


> they did it on the phoenix so that charlie's name wouldn't wrap all the way around the small st.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Just adding the love of the Phoenix. This one is now owned by Mike at Blackmountain. After reading this thread, I'd sure like it back! As set up in this shot[up above Crested Butte], Marzocchi Z1 and big tires. Was a great, great trail bike. Best I've had, really.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> does that mean a Ritchey is uncomfortable? A Yo Eddy also has aslopping top tube and it is not "comfortable".. I can't see a 30.6 aluminum seatpost flexing.
> I believe comfort comes from mostly from thinner walled small diameter tubes. Standover clearance gives the bike a lower center of gravity and gives the rider room to throw his body around.


Well, the fat seatposts were mainly done on the Racers which had the sloping top tube. The level top tube 'Hams (and Potts) I've seen all have a standard diameter post. If you get lots of post extension (~400mm) on a 27.2 post it will sure have compliance, but it will be undamped and on the bigger bumps can throw you around a bit on the rebound.  Not to mention, it could break with all the flexing.

That said, I'd take a lot of seat post extension and big tubes versus small frame tubes (flexy laterally, but still stiff vertically due to the triangle) and a shorter post that won't flex much.

The sloping TT gives a stiff frame under pedaling, but then a long post to help absorb chatter...

Anyway, that's my $.02.

GMF and I got out on a ride over the weekend. It was a good one, but not sure how much he enjoyed it.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Well, the fat seatposts were mainly done on the Racers which had the sloping top tube. The level top tube 'Hams (and Potts) I've seen all have a standard diameter post. If you get lots of post extension (~400mm) on a 27.2 post it will sure have compliance, but it will be undamped and on the bigger bumps can throw you around a bit on the rebound.  Not to mention, it could break with all the flexing.
> 
> That said, I'd take a lot of seat post extension and big tubes versus small frame tubes (flexy laterally, but still stiff vertically due to the triangle) and a shorter post that won't flex much.
> 
> ...


I still can't see how a big diameter alum. seatpost, like the ones on Phoenix, Kleins and Yos, could absorb more shock than a triangle made of small diameter tubes. a 1/3rd in longer cstays will absorb more shock than any amount of exposed seatpost. A wicked, with a bigger rear triangle, is way more comfortabel and vertically compliant than a Yo. HOw come?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> I still can't see how a big diameter alum. seatpost, like the ones on Phoenix, Kleins and Yos, could absorb more shock than a triangle made of small diameter tubes. a 1/3rd in longer cstays will absorb more shock than any amount of exposed seatpost. A wicked, with a bigger rear triangle, is way more comfortabel and vertically compliant than a Yo. HOw come?


well, first a triangle is a very stout shape vertically. A single, unsupported member like a seatpost is not.

That said, all this vertical compliance stuff is quite minute. So much so that what one guy might say is a smooth frame, another guy might not agree.

If we're talking purely about compliance felt from the rear wheel to the seat, how much do you really think any rear triangle can flex and absorb in the vertical plane? We're talking maybe a couple millimeters, if that. Tires, knobbies, spokes, rims, saddle rails, saddle shells, seatposts, etc each flex more than that on their own I'd say.

Anyway, we're way off track. Again. 

Edit: And if we look at vertical compliance while standing, a low, sloping frame (for a given tubeset) with low seatstays should flex more than say a level top tube bike just due to the angles of the involved tubes.

And then there's the tracking thing that Martini mentioned which is also very important and I think is noticable.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

colker1 said:


> d Standover clearance gives the bike a lower center of gravity and gives the rider room to throw his body around.


There's this, and then I believe that using a larger post diameter/seattube will also give one a much stouter rear end. Its not all about compliancy, its about how confidently the rear of the bike tracks.

Granted, I never really had trouble with how my Bontrager rode and tracked, but the WTB was so much better at it.


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

I just found this which has good info...if you take out Mark and Slate anytime it appears.

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=64076


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Anyway, that's my $.02.
> 
> GMF and I got out on a ride over the weekend. It was a good one, but not sure how much he enjoyed it.


I would very much agree with your assessment of the ride characteristic of the oversize tube/drastically sloping top tube frame vs. a more conventional frame of that time period. I had a horizontally top-tubed skinny steel tubed mtb at the same time that was a nice ride, but not near as nice and comfortable as the WTB. I'm pretty coarse in my appreciation of different components (as long as it doesn't get in my way, i'm pretty happy), but i could definitely tell the difference.

And Fillet - I did have fun. I hadn't replied earlier because i pretty much slept the entire weekend recovering . I don't think I will ever be as smooth a rider as you are :thumbsup:. I'll be sure to give it another go and hopefully I'll be a little closer to keeping up as i become more used to the "stay on the 4 inch wide strip of dirt or die" trail.

-Damon


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

GMF said:


> I'll be sure to give it another go and hopefully I'll be a little closer to keeping up


Haha! Good luck!


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

999 feet is a *little* closer than 1000 feet back.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

~martini~ said:


> There's this, and then I believe that using a larger post diameter/seattube will also give one a much stouter rear end. Its not all about compliancy, its about how confidently the rear of the bike tracks.
> 
> Granted, I never really had trouble with how my Bontrager rode and tracked, but the WTB was so much better at it.


Phoenix was on my radar on mid nineties but i was too busy w/ a hard on for Ibis, IFs and Fat Chances w/ sexy paint, longer stems and shorter headtubes. Guess i should know better. Now, when looking at the phoenix numbers, i know it would ride better and fit better.. (though i still love my Ibis). otoh, i never read about Phoenix or Potts during the nineties, even on mtbr.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

GMF said:


> I'll be sure to give it another go and hopefully I'll be a little closer to keeping up as i become more used to the "stay on the 4 inch wide strip of dirt or die" trail.
> 
> -Damon


haha! Just don't look down!  It's really fun once you ride it a few times and start enjoying the flow. And you did great, especially for your first time on the trails and the time away from mountain bikes you've taken.

The miles don't come easy out there. You went well on the climbs, for sure.


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Fillet-brazed said:


> haha! Just don't look down!  It's really fun once you ride it a few times and start enjoying the flow. And you did great, especially for your first time on the trails and the time away from mountain bikes you've taken.
> 
> The miles don't come easy out there. You went well on the climbs, for sure.


Time for a hug!


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## ericb49 (Aug 11, 2006)

GMF said:


> Thank you for all that experience based information, Rumpfy. I had a few ideas on how to address the different cable pulls front and back. The first and easiest idea was to use a set of older Avid sd2.0 canti levers (I think that is what they are). Not super high end, but work well and feel pretty nice. I've used them on canti's, Vs, and disks, and they work surprisingly well across all three (least satisfied with them matched to BB7 disks, but work great with some generic avid Vs on my commuter).


Avid SD Ultimate levers are the ticket - pull adjustment for short (canti/roller/road disc) and long (v or MT disc) pull.

My 94 SE with toggle rear and V front:


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

ericb49 said:


> Avid SD Ultimate levers are the ticket - pull adjustment for short (canti/roller/road disc) and long (v or MT disc) pull.


Oh you cheeky monkey. That is pretty much what I hope my bike to be (with some minor changes)... should i ever get in touch with Mr. Potts.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Haha, I rode that bike!


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

GMF said:


> Oh you cheeky monkey. That is pretty much what I hope my bike to be (with some minor changes)... should i ever get in touch with Mr. Potts.


nar. ride it, D!


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## ericb49 (Aug 11, 2006)

Rumpfy said:


> Haha, I rode that bike!


That ol X-Fly works fine, eh? ;-)


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

ericb49 said:


> That ol X-Fly works fine, eh? ;-)


Ya felt good!


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Love the bikes. If Steve would build one in steel and 3" bigger wheels I'd get on his build list. 
BTW...I've found that the Ultimates suck with V's. Spongy. Anyone else?


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## ericb49 (Aug 11, 2006)

jeff said:


> Love the bikes. If Steve would build one in steel and 3" bigger wheels I'd get on his build list.
> BTW...I've found that the Ultimates suck with V's. Spongy. Anyone else?


I have not felt that, but I have not used the 2001 and newer ones. These are the 98 "V Chip", plenty snappy plus lots of lever for my fat fingers ;-)


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

jeff said:


> Love the bikes. If Steve would build one in steel and 3" bigger wheels I'd get on his build list.


I'll bet that he'd build it if you asked.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

jeff said:


> BTW...I've found that the Ultimates suck with V's. Spongy. Anyone else?


v chipped vs non v chipped.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

ericb49 said:


> Avid SD Ultimate levers are the ticket - pull adjustment for short (canti/roller/road disc) and long (v or MT disc) pull.
> 
> My 94 SE with toggle rear and V front:


That's a really great looking Phoenix. Probably one of my favorites. My mod'ed Judy works fairly good, but yours makes me want to put a little more substantial fork on mine. I'd have to ditch the Lever Link front brake though... 

Regarding the Avid levers ran with an RC and a V, I had mine that way for a time. Front was a little spongy, but it worked satisfactorily.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> That's a really great looking Phoenix. Probably one of my favorites. My mod'ed Judy works fairly good, but yours makes me want to put a little more substantial fork on mine.


Are you going to modify your Judy into a Marzocchi?


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

laffeaux said:


> I'll bet that he'd build it if you asked.


Wrong answer!!!! Like I need to drop big coin on another custom? Did I just say that?


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Well, Mr. Potts did e-mail me back after i sent him another one and is willing to fix the frame for time and materials. I have a few options:

1) Bare bones is to simply restore the frame. This would put frame bosses back in the orginal places, roll out the dents, etc. With that, i am left with the 1" steerer, frame designed around a 2.5" travel fork, and running a 140mm stem. However, I have a 1" judy steerer that I can modify an older SID to work with and get some more suspension performance that way. I do get to use the 1" new paradigm headset, though.

2) For a fair bit more (guesstimating), i can switch to an 1 1/8 steerer tube, and *maybe* tweak the geometry to handle an 80mm fork.

3) For some reason, he doesn't want to "just" replace the front triangle, which seems like after all the dent rolling and braze-on moving, and head tube swapping...  Anyway, I have contacted a couple other people about quotes for that.

4) Realize this is an old bike, and that money is best placed other places. :sad:

So right now, I am weighing my options and waiting for more info. For added decision making fun, my wife was throwing out the option of upgrading me to frame building school instead of putting money into this frame, but that is even more money that is questionably discretionary (and probably just a diversion tactic from putting money into this bike )

That is where I am at today. I think I need to take a step back and zen out on this a bit, gather some opinions, and see what option feels right...


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

I'd say let Steve restore it. At the most replace the head tube. For the kind of money and time it will take for a front triangle replacement you can have choice of many nice customs built. Any quality builder will charge you what the repair work is worth. Remember....you get what you pay for.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

riding an 80mm on a frame ready for 63 won't be that dramatic. You can find a marzocchi and run substantial sag. It's what i do here and it works great. Or you coud just mod the fork into 63mm. doable. 
most of the hardtails these days are running 100mm forks. MOst of the hardtails are 29ers. in the near future they will sport 650B wheels. i say do it as simple as possible. Do you really need to even send it to Potts?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

GMF said:


> 3) For some reason, he doesn't want to "just" replace the front triangle, which seems like after all the dent rolling and braze-on moving, and head tube swapping...  Anyway, I have contacted a couple other people about quotes for that.


Ask him how much to replace both the front and rear triangles on the bike. At some point that will be less expensive. 

If it were me I'd keep it as close to original as possible. Fixing it up is great, but once you start replacing head tubes and modifying the geometry you'll be sinking lots of money into the frame to make it ride differently than the frame that you remember. You'd be better off keeping your old frame for it's "good memories" and then buying a new frame that has modern niceities.

I agree with Colker, Marzocchi forks from the early 2000s ride really nice, had a shorter axle to crown than Rock Shox, and can have their travel reduced easily. They're a great option if you can find one.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

laffeaux is being nice and polite but really, D, what you want done is really rework the bike so much that it's going to be a completely different bike and probably one that doesn't ride as nice. You may as well start from scratch and get a new bike (and it'll cost nearly the same).

As just about everybody has said here.....pull it together and ride it as is.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

GMF said:


> Well, Mr. Potts did e-mail me back after i sent him another one and is willing to fix the frame for time and materials. I have a few options:
> 
> 1) Bare bones is to simply restore the frame. This would put frame bosses back in the orginal places, roll out the dents, etc. With that, i am left with the 1" steerer, frame designed around a 2.5" travel fork, and running a 140mm stem. However, I have a 1" judy steerer that I can modify an older SID to work with and get some more suspension performance that way. I do get to use the 1" new paradigm headset, though.
> 
> ...


With some of the options you've been given, you could find another Phoenix quicker and for less money than having Steve replace...pretty much all of it. Steve is the nicest guy ever. But his quality work takes time and money

Unless there is specific structural damage, pick the option that makes the bike most usable and back on the trail quickest.

Just my $.02.


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

phoenix's, flat bar 96 and a dirtdropped 93.


----------



## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

oops, 96 flat bar.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

girlonbike said:


> pull it together and ride it as is.


Well, to be honest, the frame makes me sad in it's current state, and it is asking for some love, not more abuse. So i am going to focus on the former.



Rumpfy said:


> With some of the options you've been given, you could find another Phoenix quicker and for less money than having Steve replace...pretty much all of it. Steve is the nicest guy ever. But his quality work takes time and money
> 
> Unless there is specific structural damage, pick the option that makes the bike most usable and back on the trail quickest.


This is basically what it is coming down to for me. As laffeaux said, why risk changing the ride of a bike i love? Deal with its quirks of age - they won't slow it down.

So right now, i am focusing on figuring out the best way to repair and repaint my frame. I'm trying to keep it under $600... we'll see how that goes. I have the vast majority of parts needed to build it the way I want. The only big ticket item is a fork in decent shape (all i have is a really beat judy). We'll see how this approach goes...

Thanks for all the input, everyone!


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

I'll take door number '93.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

why are you running a 140mm stem? those bikes have long top tubes. almost everybody is on a phoneix w/ 120mm stem.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

colker1 said:


> why are you running a 140mm stem? those bikes have long top tubes. almost everybody is on a phoneix w/ 120mm stem.


Well, back in the day of 135 stems being very common, a 140 didn't seem out there. I'm 6' tall and am on the medium frame - at the top end of the fit department.

I could have gone either way, i suppose, but always liked the ride, so no complaints (except for going over the bars too often )


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

colker1 said:


> why are you running a 140mm stem? those bikes have long top tubes. almost everybody is on a phoneix w/ 120mm stem.


Actually their top tubes are fairly short. They work well with drop bars because of the shorter top tube.

I ran a 135mm stem on an 18" flat-bar Phoenix, but sold it for a later model 16.5" which works great with a 120mm x 25 degree stem for a drop bar. I'm about a 1/2" over 6 feet.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

laffeaux said:


> Actually their top tubes are fairly short. They work well with drop bars because of the shorter top tube.
> 
> I ran a 135mm stem on an 18" flat-bar Phoenix, but sold it for a later model 16.5" which works great with a 120mm x 25 degree stem for a drop bar. I'm about a 1/2" over 6 feet.


A 15in, medium phoenix has a 22.75 top tube. That's not short. Although top tube measure alone won't tell the whole story. i ride bikes w/ 22.25 top tubes and i am 5'9


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

colker1 said:


> why are you running a 140mm stem? those bikes have long top tubes. almost everybody is on a phoneix w/ 120mm stem.


you talking about my 96 phoenix?

it is a 120mm, but i've used 135mm in the past.

phoenix frames have a fairly neutral "actual" top tube length i believe, and i agree this makes them work well with drop bars. That 93 of mine barely has a 22.5 actual top tube and it's the biggest one they made at that time.

if you weren't talking about my frame, then carry on, sorry for the words.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

girlonbike said:


> v chipped vs non v chipped.


Non.....Sniff.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

A little update.

After contacting several builders/repair people, I finally settled on someone relatively close to me. Good price, good lead time, and I like what i've seen of his work. This will be a straight restoration job and switching to Rollercams type of gig. It's not Mr. Potts, but I'm pretty comfortable with the decision. 
I've also started collecting the parts. I received my NOS rollercam... while not a high end version, it will certainly get me going. The long term plan is to use my CAD skills and access to CNC to make some cool neuvo-retro cams, but no rush for that. Also dug out the New Paradigm hubset and some Mavic 217 sunset rims that should make for a nice wheelset. The rear hub could use some bearing love, although it is servicable the way it is. I'll swap out the New Paradigm headset from my fixie crosser to this bike (where it belongs) and I'm going to keep my eye out for a later model (something in the '05 to '07 range) SID to graft my 1" Judy crown/steerer assembly on to while dropping to 63mm of travel. A couple other little bits and bobs, and it'll be a happy build, i think!


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

Cool, you got the good version of the roller cam.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

muddybuddy said:


> Cool, you got the good version of the roller cam.


Looks like the coil sprung version, if that's what you like.

Sounds like a good plan, GMF. The only part you messed up on was selling that Type II to an out of towner. 

Interested in seeing your version of the roller cam someday.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

It is indeed the coil spring version, not the "way cooler" linear spring version, but I am confident I can make this work well enough for the time being.

Fillet - sorry about the Type II sale. The moderator threatened to kick me off this forum if i didn't sell it to her.

A question for people still following this thread, though. Just as a sanity check for the "upgrade" of my Phoenix to a Phoenix SE, could someone measure the distance between the rollercam studs? I want to doubly make sure this ends up correct and that i'm not effing up my bike somehow.

Thanks a bunch,
-Damon


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Consider sending the Roller Cam along with the frame for test fitting.

Who's doing the work? Hunter? Paul S?


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks for the suggestion, Rumpfy... you aren't the only one expressing a little bit of concern. I'll definitely be sending the Suntour XC Sport rollercam i bought along with the frame, and if it looks like a no-go (or at least not an easy go), then i'll most definitely live and i'll just stick with V brakes. Not as stylie cool, but i'll make the best of it.

As for the frame dude, Tony at Black Cat Bicycles. I really dig his style and got a good vibe during my discussion with him. Paul S was a strong supporter of him as a choice, too. Both Paul and Hunter were too busy to take on the work.


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## Machianera (Feb 5, 2011)

GMF said:


> A question for people still following this thread, though. Just as a sanity check for the "upgrade" of my Phoenix to a Phoenix SE, could someone measure the distance between the rollercam studs? I want to doubly make sure this ends up correct and that i'm not effing up my bike somehow.
> 
> Thanks a bunch,
> -Damon


There are directions on where to weld the suntour rc bosses here:
https://mombat.org/85XCSport4.jpg
and some other indications here:
https://mombat.org/WTB 1991 Product Review - Page 3.jpg

However I would expect the frame builder to know how.

Are you planning to use a rear hanger to center the brake cable?

I would leave the v brake, unless I had SP to weld the bosses and the toggle cam for the back.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

GMF said:


> It is indeed the coil spring version, not the "way cooler" linear spring version, but I am confident I can make this work well enough for the time being.
> 
> Fillet - sorry about the Type II sale. The moderator threatened to kick me off this forum if i didn't sell it to her.
> 
> ...


You could always get one of those arch ultimate Avids.. don't remember the name exactly. It's the coolest V brake ever made. there is a phoenix in this thread sporting those brakes. Though i like the SE option a lot.. and then you can obssess about finding a rollercam or two. priceless.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

I got a chance to play around at Fillet Brazed's retrobike mausoleum and cryogenics emporium last night, and look at the differences between his, ahem, well loved... '96 Phoenix and my '94. There were definitely some subtle differences in the seat stays (mine are about 8mm wider where the rollercams mount), but that will still work out OK, and after trying his various rollercams on the bike, i really got a sense of how they feel and what is unique about them. I liked it well enough to go ahead with it. I was also able to capture some of the details/nuances of what makes it work well. 

On an unrelated note, does anyone know of a source for either the decals or a graphics file that the earlier model Phoenix decals can be made from?

Thanks,
-Damon


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## Pimpride (Nov 14, 2005)

So many Phoenii Rising from the Ashes.... Very fitting.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Dropout spacing question:

Did ALL Phoenix frames come with a wider dropout? Mine (a not SE version) measured at 137-138 range. Were they trying to split the difference between 135 and 140, or? I just want to know if I should tell the frame guy to correct the spacing to 135 or keep it as-is.

Thanks,
-Damon


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## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

Phoenix frames were either 135 or 140. "Splitting the difference" would have been very un-WTB like.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Maybe you've been pinching a 135mm hub in your 140mm spaced frame? :|


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## ericb49 (Aug 11, 2006)

GMF said:


> I got a chance to play around at Fillet Brazed's retrobike mausoleum and look at the differences between his '96 Phoenix and my '94. There were definitely some subtle differences in the seat stays (mine are about 8mm wider where the rollercams mount


This might also point to your frame being 140mm spacing. It's a good thing, time to hunt for a matching WTB hub :thumbsup:


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## 805MTB (Jul 4, 2010)

"resto mod" 
anyone have a definition for this term?


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

klasse said:


> "resto mod"
> anyone have a definition for this term?


Generally speaking: vintage frame, modern parts.

The term is used a lot in the vintage auto industry.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

ericb49 said:


> This might also point to your frame being 140mm spacing. It's a good thing, time to hunt for a matching WTB hub :thumbsup:


Mine has 140mm spacing. His seat stays arrive at the seat tube with a wider stance than mine do. Along with a dif sized headtube, and differently shaped stays, there are a few other subtle variations between his 94 and my 96.

137/138 spacing could be a good thing though, since it would allow you to use either width hub.

I'm just happy my poor ol' dirty Phoenix got to go on a field trip and come back all clean and shiny. Thanks Damon!


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

halaburt said:


> Phoenix frames were either 135 or 140. "Splitting the difference" would have been very un-WTB like.


The "un-WTB like"ness is definitely what prompted me to ask the question. It just didn't seem right for this frame.



Fillet-brazed said:


> Mine has 140mm spacing. His seat stays arrive at the seat tube with a wider stance than mine do. Along with a dif sized headtube, and differently shaped stays, there are a few other subtle variations between his 94 and my 96.
> 
> 137/138 spacing could be a good thing though, since it would allow you to use either width hub.
> 
> I'm just happy my poor ol' dirty Phoenix got to go on a field trip and come back all clean and shiny. Thanks Damon!


It was interesting to see how there were so many subtle differences - cable guides, dropouts, etc. between just those 2 years. I don't know why i expected the frames to be more consistent than that. Yours also has the "wide spacing" decal on the stay that mine never did.

As for the dropout spacing, i'm kind of at a loss as to why it is wider. I know it is a standard edition Phoenix, and assuming that came with a 135 dropout spacing, that is all i've ever put in there. I wouldalso be hard pressed to believe that putting a 140 hub in a 135 frame or vice-versa would permanently set the rear triangle like that.

I think i'll go to the proper 135 spacing just be more universal and not worry about respacing a hub to 140 if what i've got goes kablooey.

And for the little bit i got to ride your Phoenix around (when was the last time I was on a hard tail?), it has got me fired up even more on getting this bike back on the dirt.

-Damon


----------



## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

Damon- What you're noting as differences between '94 and '96 were elements of the one big re-do the steel Phoenix got during its lifespan. I've had #94304 and #96444 (both 140mm dropout and togglecam setups) and they had all those differences PLUS:
- different decal sets
- 3 bottle bosses on the down tube of the '96 for a Bomber cage
- slightly more suspension correction on the '96 than the '94
- Different BB shells (the '96 is thicker and you can convert it to press-in bearings - a popular PCC mod)

I'm sure there are exceptions, but I suspect that most frames that have canti mounts were built as 135mm. Many (maybe even most) of the RC and TC mount frames were 140mm. WTB's assumption was probably that if a customer fully bought into the WTB vision, they'd want the good brakes and the good spacing. ;-)


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks for those added highlights. I also noticed that the '96 had star bottle boss braze-ons vs. my plain jane ones...

Both ride great, though.


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

FWIW my 96 w/ 135 mm and v-brakes has the ritchey drops but plain braze-ons.


----------



## alasa (Jan 28, 2004)

My '94 Phoenix, has Ritchey dropout, 135mm rear spacing, and RC and TC bosses.
And 1" steer tube!!!!!!


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

my 96 has 140mm spacing. Personally, I think you should keep it 140mm. I know you're impatient but they're out there (mine is a Chris King hub) and if you're going to do it, it would be cool for you to do it right, not just make it universal.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

alasa said:


> My '94 Phoenix, has Ritchey dropout, 135mm rear spacing, and RC and TC bosses.
> And 1" steer tube!!!!!!


I think they all have Ritchey dropouts, but somewhere around 95 they went to the socket-style dropout.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I think they all have Ritchey dropouts, but somewhere around 95 they went to the socket-style dropout.


Oh yeah good point that could be true - mine has the socket style dropout as expected.


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

While i think the socket style dropout is probably functionally better, I really like the scalloped transition between the stays and the dropout on my plate style dropout. Dave - what did you call that again? French something or other?


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I'm just happy my poor ol' dirty Phoenix got to go on a field trip and come back all clean and shiny. Thanks Damon!


Cute.


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

colker1 said:


> riding an 80mm on a frame ready for 63 won't be that dramatic. You can find a marzocchi and run substantial sag. It's what i do here and it works great. Or you coud just mod the fork into 63mm. doable.


I'm looking at picking up a fork now and am going back and forth between a RS SID and a Marzocchi. Any recommendations (model/year)? I've never ridden either, and the Judy I had on there is all but dead.

...The frame decals are ordered, the rollercam bosses are in and about to be brazed on, and spacing set to 140mm.

Thanks,
-Damon


----------



## ericb49 (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm a fan of the Marz (I have a late 90s Z2 X Fly on my 94) especially as they will press a 1" steerer into any fork they make and can drop the travel to your needs. If I had a 1 1/8" steerer the SID would be hard to pass up - about 400g lighter. Maybe RS will press a 1" steerer? I never checked.


----------



## Machianera (Feb 5, 2011)

form JP:
T-serv Web Magazine | ƒoƒCƒNƒJƒ^ƒ�ƒO - WTB PHOENIX


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

ericb49 said:


> I'm a fan of the Marz (I have a late 90s Z2 X Fly on my 94) especially as they will press a 1" steerer into any fork they make and can drop the travel to your needs. If I had a 1 1/8" steerer the SID would be hard to pass up - about 400g lighter. Maybe RS will press a 1" steerer? I never checked.


I've got a Marz Bomber Z2. It's a coil shock and prefer air forks on hardtails.. Having said that the Z2 takes care of itself and i have done zero maintenance in 14 yrs of owning this thing. I don't touch it. it keeps working.


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

My preference is definitely for an air fork, for many of the reasons already stated. I've only ever ridden an entry level...MX-Pro? Whatever came on my base model Kona in 2003. It was a fine fork, but way overbuilt for what I am looking for. 

I just don't know the early marzocchi models very well, so that is why I am looking for suggestions about which (air) model would best be adapted to the Phoenix. A Superfly? A Z2 x-Fly (is that one?)?

I'm sure the SID would be fine, I'm just curious about other options.


----------



## ericb49 (Aug 11, 2006)

GMF said:


> My preference is definitely for an air fork, for many of the reasons already stated. I've only ever ridden an entry level...MX-Pro? Whatever came on my base model Kona in 2003. It was a fine fork, but way overbuilt for what I am looking for.
> 
> I just don't know the early marzocchi models very well, so that is why I am looking for suggestions about which (air) model would best be adapted to the Phoenix. A Superfly? A Z2 x-Fly (is that one?)?
> I'm sure the SID would be fine, I'm just curious about other options.


My Z2 X-Fly is air - I am not 100% but pretty sure alll the FLY models are air. It works great with the Phoenix, especially at 60mm.

The bike had a Z2 Bomber (oil bath spring) when I got it that was also good, still have it but it needs service.










I used a 1" MX Comp Air 80mm on this klunker project - that would be the newest Marz sold with the 1" steerer.


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Well, the frame is finally going under the toch. So far, the paint has been stripped, which unveiled... history. Quite a few dents (mostly really small - Xs mark the spots), but also some pinholes in the seat tube and some crusty rusty bits on the stays. The pin holes will be filled with silver and the stays will probably get some brass filling them in. Nothing structurally concerning, and I like that the builder is caring about this and letting me know what he's doing to fix them.

Things are starting to move... 

Now i just hope the decals are finished sometime in the near future (i have received several "almost done" e-mails from Velo Cals). I'm sure it'll all get done in the end. I just need to get all this together before my birthday next month :thumbsup:

-Damon


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## StanleyButterfly (Nov 4, 2009)

The pinholes indicate a structural issue to me. It's rusting from the inside out.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

StanleyButterfly said:


> The pinholes indicate a structural issue to me. It's rusting from the inside out.


I'll ask the builder, but I trust his judgement. It is a good reminder to coat the inside with frame saver, though...


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

If you've got holes then it's going to be rusted thin spreading back away from them. Good luck.


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## Loudviking (Oct 23, 2011)

GMF said:


> Well, the frame is finally going under the toch. So far, the paint has been stripped, which unveiled... history. Quite a few dents (mostly really small - Xs mark the spots), but also some pinholes in the seat tube and some crusty rusty bits on the stays. The pin holes will be filled with silver and the stays will probably get some brass filling them in. Nothing structurally concerning, and I like that the builder is caring about this and letting me know what he's doing to fix them.
> 
> Things are starting to move...
> 
> ...


I got my Airborne decals done from VeloCals, top quality work, but very, very slow. Keep
contacting him, that's what I had to do to get them done. Good luck.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Loudviking said:


> I got my Airborne decals done from VeloCals, top quality work, but very, very slow. Keep
> contacting him, that's what I had to do to get them done. Good luck.


Latest update is this Tuesday (tomorrow) :thumbsup:. It isn't holding things up (yet), but it is almost getting to that point...


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Decals are now done and on order:

Results for WTB Wilderness Trail Bikes

He still needs to clarify his model years of decal set better, but I have the early (roundier "phoenix" font) style on order. "Next Tuesday" took a couple weeks.


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## rasumichin (Oct 21, 2008)

This tiny holes are sings of deeper corrosion damage from the outside. At least at my steel bikes this was the case and I do know that because I grinded and smoothed down them by hand.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks for all the concerns about the frame, but the frame guy has the best perspective on this (both experience and having the frame in hand). He says it'll be OK, and is taking steps to mitigate any possible problem. I am confident the frame will be just fine... and if not, it has had a good life. I think it'll last a lot longer, though.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

who's doing the work on the frame?


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

black cat bicycles


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

GMF said:


> black cat bicycles


My buddy has one of their bikes. Cool stuff.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

I can hardly find one of his creations that I don't think is awesome. When i get around to replacing my "made in china" road/cyclocross machine... you better believe he is going to be on the short list. May take some time, though, as i tend to hang on to bikes for a while...


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Good news and bad. Decals are shipping to the frame guy, so almost done. But... The painter mixed up the colors on two frames, mine being one, and the builder's NAHBS submission being the other (DOH!). 

So hopefully that will get corrected quickly. Only have a little over a week left to make it in time for a birthday present (not looking likely, now... sad face). But still very close!

-Damon


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Go with the NAHBS job


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Have you been talking to my wife? She said the same thing... Email sent to the builder, too 

-Damon


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

If you don't dig it they should be able to get it redone for you later. But you could get riding sooner, and likely have an awesome show-quality paint job.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

I think it is just a powder base coat before he does his artsy thing, but a picture will tell. With any luck he'll send one tonight that I will share. 

Either way, I'm pretty stoked to be in the home stretch. Just a few components left to get, and I'll be ready to roll!


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Not a picture of my frame, but here is the color (the blue grey, not the green). I do dig the color, but i think the black decals on order/being made right now may not look good with it. What do you guys think?

black cat bicycles: Chug-a-Lug


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Twood certainly be stealthy. I might chose silver, but the understated black on blue-grey might look pretty rad.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

First of all, that's hot. Gray with black is awesome.

Second of all, I doubt you're able to wait anyway. Stick them on and ride like hell, D!


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Yeah, it certainly is hot, but the more I look at it, the more I think I am going to pass and go with the original pearl white. What can I say, I'm a patient man... The black on grey is a little too aggro for this bike, and the majority of my components are silver or grey, which wouldn't look very good, methinks. I'm certainly not going to start over with the component shopping.

For me, my Phoenix is about fun, good times, and good memories - not a ninja death sneak attack...


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

I really like that color (and that bike)! I say go with it. Will hunt for an RD for you tomorrow.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

C'mon, go with the gray. Pearl white looks boring as heck. I would love my Phoenix to be that color. Nate's green is amazing. Be bold.

Help, FB!


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

ok - so imagine that color with silver cranks, brakes... pretty much everything, with mavic rims in the citron/sunset ano... does that combo sound good to you? Color matching really ain't my thing, so i may be missing something, but it just seems wrong.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

GMF said:


> ok - so imagine that color with silver cranks, brakes... pretty much everything, with mavic rims in the* citron/sunset* ano... does that combo sound good to you? Color matching really ain't my thing, so i may be missing something, but it just seems wrong.


neither one of those

no

just no


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

hollister said:


> no
> 
> just no


Somebody would hafta to swap me some rims, because that is what i already have built up


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Go w/ the blue grey!


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Well, now that my frame is getting close to being done, i need to do something about the roller cam brakes i purchased for the rear. As was (very) helpfully pointed out to me, the roller cam is not the working solution for the phoenix because the seat stays are so short. There isn't enough room for the cable to wrap around the seatpost and then go straight again in the middle of the frame. Thus, the toggle cam was invented, and Cunningham said it was good.

So, I don't have the bucks for a genuine toggle cam, but i do have the coins for a budget suntour roller cam brake and a few raw materials. While not quite done, a few hours, a dremel and a bandsaw has gotten me to this point.

Many thanks to FilletBrazed for letting me check out his Phoenix and take a little tracing of his toggle cam plate and get some measurements. I just hope my part works when all is said and done...


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## Machianera (Feb 5, 2011)

On a side note, would a short cable hanger work? 
as long as che cable aligns with the pulleys and the angle can be fixed (with or without screw
).


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm trying to keep it WTB style, which uses a clean little cable guide loop on the side and the side-actuated toggle cam. Fine suggestion, though...


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## Levi Strauss (Jan 20, 2008)

great idea - charlie will be proud of you


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks Levi - it is a little hacky looking, but i figure it is in the spirit of the early WTB days...


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

So she is now pretty much built up and rideable (still need to do some cable management and other odds and ends). Not totally satisfied with the build by any means, but it is getting there. I just had a couple free minutes to snap off a couple pics while it was still daylight.

I am still trying to figure out my (mono-chrome) color scheme, but I ended up really digging the sunset ano rims with the understated grey w/silver decal frame. The homebrew toggle cam works really well and feels solid. I had to break out the dremel on a few bits to get all the pieces to clear, but i like how tidy it is and how it feels tailored to this frame. Next, i think i have a nice thick plate of aluminum that should work for a brace.

I'm trying a 2x8 drivetrain for the first time, so i'll see if i dig that gearing... if not I have a set of old XT cranks that can go on here. Maybe something modern, but I've always wanted a set of Syncros Revolution cranks...

Things I want to swap:
The junk seat for a proper WTB SST saddle
The fork for something that works halfway decently
The front tube for one that doesn't have a slow leak 
The stem for a slightly higher rise model (thinking syncros cattleprod)
The bars for a flat bar variety (thinking syncros here, too)

I've got other little ideas and projects for the bike to make it a little more interesting/special, but those are down the road. I need to get it dirty first :thumbsup:

And I'll try to work on my photography skills, too.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I've always felt that the Phoenix, and any other bike that was designed for singletrack, _is_ aggro. I dig the gray-and-black.


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## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

Wow, is that ever a lot of seatpost. How does the rear brake work?


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks Vlad. The bike definitely is a bit more "aggro" looking than with the original pearl white paint, but I like it. 

Uphiller, I'll be the first to admit that I am on the upper end for this frame size, but keep in mind that this frame was designed in the days of no suspension, so a long seat post and a long stem were considered the ways to soften up the ride. The long seatpost is pretty typical for the Phoenix frame (and is really quite comfy). 
The rear brake is a homebrew toggle cam. The cable pulls on the right side of the cam plate and it pivots around an adjuster/bolt on the left side. It does work quite well and feels nicely solid despite not having any sort of booster. It is not the lightest setup, but this is no weight weenie bike. The cool part about using the cam plate is that you can get a ton of rim clearance while still getting a lot of clamping power. It really is a nice rim brake design.


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## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

I also saw you're using Avid brake levers with adjustable leverage- what leverage setting are they on? With the cable carrier thingie closer to the bar, or farther away?
I remember riding a Phoenix several years ago, just a really great do it all hardtail, would love to own one. Thanks for posting the pics.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

It Is pretty much right in the middle. These are the cantilever Avid SD brake levers, btw. However, by altering the cam profile you should be able make it work with either canti or v brake levers.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thought I would just update this thread with a little (albeit already outdated) ride picture on a fun little outing around Pebble Beach.

I'm enjoying the 2x8 drivetrain, and the rear toggle cam is working fine (have made a couple of improvements), and the xc-pro thumbies with m900 rear derailleur still shifts wonderfully. I need to drop some money on another fork, though, since the judy-crowned sid, while OK, is a weak link in the ride. Maybe just a full rebuild is needed. The 80mm of travel works really well with the frame, though - much better than i thought. The 1" steerer is going to prove a sticky point for fork replacement, as usual...

I swapped the pretty TTT 140x0* stem for a salsa 120x6*(?) stem, and it fits much better, so I don't feel like I'm always headed for an endo...

My last ride was in the rain and slop around here though (on the same trail pictured), and oh man... did those v-brakes in front suck it up. I had forgotten how bad they are in the wet! I may be swapping to a disk front end - which is a pretty awesome contrast to the toggle cam. It'll be my mullet bike: business in the front, party in the back.

I've got lots of little tweaks and mods planned for the future, but it is all fabrication intensive (well, for me, anyway), so it'll happen slowly...

Anyway, just a little update :thumbsup:


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

GMF said:


> It'll be my mullet bike: business in the front, party in the back.


ha! That's funny! I was thinking that your forks may work substantially better after a Hippietech rebuild. I've had good stopping power with v brakes in the rain. Have you thought about changing your pads to the salmon kool stops? Are there pics of your mods to the togglecams?

Thanks for the update!


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks for the suggestions GOB - i do not have the salmons on there, despite being a big fan of them. I do have the original salmon pads on the back (mathauser finned jobbies), and they did seem less effected by the wet. Regarding the togglecam mods - the togglecam kind of IS the mod. It was originally an xc-sport (expert?) roller cam that i toggled up. You can see a picture of it on pg 7. Since then, i've swapped out the brass roller with an old avid rollamajig roller (the metal kind). Feels like butter, now. I can take more detailed pics, if you want to see something more specific...

As for hippietech - i've never looked into them. If it runs $75, i'd probably go for it, but if it's $150, i just don't think the fork is worth it. I left a message with them, so we'll see what they have to say...


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I'm sorry, I had a brain fart. I see the pictures below. That's great that it worked well. I love the guys that do a lot of creative modifications on this forum. I have a great respect for innovative people.

Let us know what happens with your suspension fix!


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## classen (Oct 7, 2009)

GMF said:


> As for hippietech - i've never looked into them. If it runs $75, i'd probably go for it, but if it's $150, i just don't think the fork is worth it. I left a message with them, so we'll see what they have to say...


I've not had a good experience with HT. It's a one man operation and the owner operator is obviously very busy with stuff other than his business. I won't bore you to death with details and I don't feel particularly comfortable bad mouthing people or businesses in a public way on on the interwebs. Suffice it to say, if I was going to get my forks serviced again I would look around for an alternate company.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks classen - good information. I am perfectly capable of rebuilding the forks, it would just take me some time, and all the parts would start approaching $75 (oil, bushings, all seals, etc). So parts with free labor *should* be a good deal, but only if it doesn't get to be a hassle!

I've got a couple options moving forward, but I definitely appreciate the advice.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

classen said:


> I've not had a good experience with HT. It's a one man operation and the owner operator is obviously very busy with stuff other than his business. I won't bore you to death with details and I don't feel particularly comfortable bad mouthing people or businesses in a public way on on the interwebs. Suffice it to say, if I was going to get my forks serviced again I would look around for an alternate company.


That's interesting. CCMDoc mentioned this in a different thread today. That is too bad. I was going to use him but got a forum regular that lived near me to help out instead. (Thanks!) Rumpfy has used him and swore by him. Too bad if his work has gone downhill. Thanks for letting us know, Classen.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

GMF said:


> I may be swapping to a disk front end - which is a pretty awesome contrast to the toggle cam. It'll be my mullet bike: business in the front, party in the back.


I probably mentioned it or posted a pic earlier in this thread, but I did the mullet with my TC'ed Phoenix. Get a_ road_ BB7 Avid disk brake and it'll pair up nicely with your cantilever specific levers.

And yes, my fork is a HippieTech built SID. Under 3lbs and several years of hard abuse with no issues. I know some have had bad experiences, but mine have been good. Maybe because I worked with Jerry on a few forks early (maybe 10 years ago now) on and have been a repeat customer.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Yeah, I've seen your mullet Phoenix, Rumpfy - and I definitely dig it. If I do end up disking the front, I'm contemplating putting a hydraulic piston back for the toggle cam and going a full hydro brake setup just for giggles. Cable brakes for now, though, as I like having the matched new paradigm hubs.

I have an experiment underway with the fork thing that may take a couple weeks to get all the parts in, but if that pans out, i'll post it up. In the mean time, i'll just re-lube the stantions on the SID to get it bouncy again and avoid nasty muck.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

I was a mix of irresponsible and responsible over the last few months. Just cleaned up the fork, and it still works well enough, and got a set of salmon pad inserts, so that helped out braking (thanks for the suggestion, GOB).

I want to see if you guys can pick out the 4 other changes that happened today. Additional little story if they are picked out (and i'll be shocked if the changes aren't picked out with ease!)

-Damon


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

1) Sweet Wings cranks
2) New/shorter black stem (Salsa I'm guessing)
3) Syncros Steer Horn bar ends
4) A kid, assuming he's yours as well.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

1 and 3 are definitely correct, and I guess #2 is technically correct, but that had been changed a while ago (yeah - salsa). As for #4, that kid has been hanging around for 7 years. For some reason, I can't get rid of him...

Stupid story is about the cranks. I had been on the lookout for a set of syncros cranks (have a thing for the tubular steel cranks), and then found the sweets in good shape. Went to install them, but lo-and-behold the tube that fits between the bearings is not held tight (as it is supposed to - this tube keeps the drive side bearing in place, which holds the cranks in place). So the solution is presumably to face the BB shell by about 1/2mm. 
I took it to the local bike who wanted the bike for about 5 days until they could do this 10 minute job, but whatever... Fine. 
On wednesday, though, i get a call from the shop saying they got the BB in and they added a shim between the drive side cup and the frame. 
What?
Turns out they didn't set the tube correctly and they munched it. Not happy.

Lemons into lemonade, though: i just happened to have a crusty, dead cannondale road frame that i had been meaning to throw out... with the same OD 1.25" tube. Out comes a hack saw, out comes the chop saw, and bam. New (slightly wider) spacer. Thicker wall, so I added a bit of weight, but mass macho (and who cares about the weight?). LocTite is setting up tonight, so we'll see how they hold up. They feel good and tight, though, so i hope they'll be way better than what was on there before.

This is why I don't like other people working on my bikes...


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Good job Damon! Cute kid.  that was a ton of effort. Do you have a close up of the process of what you did?


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

I'll try to take some pictures tomorrow of the munched tube (not really THAT bad - just significantly worse than i brought it in), the cut up bike in the garbage, and the tube in the chop saw. The last part was fun.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

This isn't going to help much, as they are double ghetto cell phone pics. Post shorty night ride, so my bike light + iphone provide the photographic ambiance.

First is the picture of what the spacer should look like (one end)
Second is what the spacer got turned into (the other end)
... after thought and bike shop trubs...
Third are the remains of the old cannondale road bike in the recycling
Fourth is the seat tube clamped in the chop saw
Fifth is a the first spacer that i cut, and no matter how many times i cut that sumbich, it still ended up too short. Had to make a new one.
<<for some reason pic 1 isn't showing up, but you get the idea>>

Probably the worst "this is what i did" photo group on the internet, but there isn't anything complicated about the process.

Step 1) find 1.25" OD aluminum tube
Step 2) square off 1 end in the chop saw (used fine pitch blade)
Step 3) compare length to munched tube, add a tiny bit
Step 4) cut other end of 1.25" OD aluminum tube
Step 5) deburr edges with dremel+sanding drum
Step 6) install

Number of people in the world this post will help? 0


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

I'm not sure I fully understand the need for the spacer tube, as I've put thousands of miles on a set of these cranks without one. It seems like good adhesive on the bearing and the drive side cup is sufficient to hold it in place. I think I once read that the tube kept the two bearings and cups in nice, square alignment, but this seems less critical on a frame with a BB shell that has been properly faced on both sides. I do use Loctite liberally during installation.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

The spacer tube pushes the drive side bearing firmly into the cup to prevent axial movement. It is what is supposed to set the stop for the drive side cup as the spacer gets squeezed between the drive side bearing and the non-drive side cup (the threaded section you fit the tool into).

The cranks float in the non-drive side bearing, but pinch the drive bearing inner race, and that is what holds the crank arms in place, left/right. A robust positioning of the drive bearing seems important. Apparently loctite does the job well enough, but i guess I wanted to preserve the original design intent. I am using loctite at the splined interface and also at the bolt holding the crank together, though.

It is a clever design, with some known but easily addressed flaws. I hope the cranks last me for a while.

On my ride last night, i did notice the "stiffness", but definitely can't say it was an earth shattering experience. It was a nice ride and they performed without me noticing them, and that is a good thing, so i'm happy


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

I like your build. I like the stem.. the crankset.. bike color.. suntour thumb shifters.. it looks right. even the bar ends on the semi riser look good.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

So i had an interesting (and hopefully not future life threatening) project this weekend. I've been frustrated with the lack of 1" steerer tube suspension fork options (i know white brothers is out there, but not interested in their $700 fork), so I decided to do something about it.

I had an old Noleen Mega Air fork that I liked well enough, but was in... "hard to sell" condition. I figured why not try to swap in a 1" steerer tube. 1" RST threadless steerers are surprisingly cheap on amazon so I ordered one up.

Next, you'll see my borderline ******* way of approaching this:

1) Chop saw the steerer off (i like my chop saw!)
2) You've been chopped
3) Rig up a dubious way of clamping a plunge router to the top of the crown
4) plunge as far as you can go - be disappointed that it didn't cut all the way through
5) bust out the dremel to finish it off
(not shown) - borrow an adjustable reamer and open up the hole to the right size (the steerer tube was 1.069" diameter - calc out that a .004-.005" press fit should be pretty good, so ream it to 1.064). The reamer wasn't so awesome, so i did the best I could.
6) Throw the steerer in some dry ice to shrink it
7) Throw the fork uppers in the oven to expand it
8) Get a rigged up clampy thing ready (after trying to just "slip them together" unsuccessfully: -110*F steel will heat up quickly when touched to 200*F aluminum, and the calculated clearance turns into an interference)
9) Get your son to help you with the jenky press, and voila'! Steerer installed.
10) Mount it to the bike and breath some life back into the fork. 

The fork kind of looks like junk, but it'll work well enough and seems in better shape than the Sid that was on there before. Also, noticably less flexy. Between the 32mm stantions and the 9mm ritchey Sqraxle that I adapted to the New Paradigm hub, it tracks pretty darn well... on the road in front of my house  No hands riding works with no problem and the steerer hasn't twisted in the crown, yet (but I am going to add a dowel pin - just in case). The slightly longer steerer tube also gets the handlebars up higher which unweights the front end a bit and lightens up the steering, offsetting the longer travel fork.

If this process works out, i'm thinking of getting a later model Sid or Fox Float (or suggestions?) and pressing in a threaded steerer for a little extra intrigue.

I'm sure you'll hear a report from me in the hospital in a month or so...


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I love the shock pump just tossed aside in the last frame.  what a process. I'm glad you documented it and hope it works out for you. Kudos to you and quite a few members here like Double Century, modifier, clausen, et al. who are skilled and creative enough to find solutions on your own.


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## 993rs (Dec 31, 2005)

No thanks, wouldn't ride it. Why not call a custom builder and have them build you a nice steel fork and be done with it?


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks, GOB. I realize my stuff is pretty hacky compared to many of the other mods, but it is an entertaining process.



993rs said:


> No thanks, wouldn't ride it. Why not call a custom builder and have them build you a nice steel fork and be done with it?


Because then I would have a rigid fork and not the possibility for a modern suspension fork on a classic frame. Also, a big part of the appeal is building something myself and learning something new. I also like that my kids help out and see that things can be built and not just bought.

Just for the record, an industrial version of this is how suspension forks are made these days (well, have been made since the mid 90s).


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

GMF said:


> So i had an interesting (and hopefully not future life threatening) project this weekend. I've been frustrated with the lack of 1" steerer tube suspension fork options (i know white brothers is out there, but not interested in their $700 fork), so I decided to do something about it.
> 
> I had an old Noleen Mega Air fork that I liked well enough, but was in... "hard to sell" condition. I figured why not try to swap in a 1" steerer tube. 1" RST threadless steerers are surprisingly cheap on amazon so I ordered one up.
> 
> ...


Nice cryofit action. 

I've wondered this when using heat and cold to temporarily alter dimensions so maybe you know; you said you cooled the steerer which makes sense, and then you heated the crown to make it expand (ie achieve a bigger ID). Well, if it expands couldn't it expand in such a way and close down that ID to a smaller diameter?

Higher stem to compensate for taller fork? I would think the stem would need to go the other way...

Nice little project. I love that kinda stuff. I would certainly pin it. Maybe even twice. 

When are we riding?


----------



## 993rs (Dec 31, 2005)

GMF said:


> Thanks, GOB. I realize my stuff is pretty hacky compared to many of the other mods, but it is an entertaining process.
> 
> Because then I would have a rigid fork and not the possibility for a modern suspension fork on a classic frame. Also, a big part of the appeal is building something myself and learning something new. I also like that my kids help out and see that things can be built and not just bought.
> 
> Just for the record, an industrial version of this is how suspension forks are made these days (well, have been made since the mid 90s).


Not looking to criticize the effort, and projects with kids are always great, but all that work to put a 4lb marginal fork up front? You would be surprised how nice a steel fork with the correct geometry built just for that frame would ride. :thumbsup:


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

But the *right* steel fork would cost more than the 1" WB suspension fork.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Well, if it expands couldn't it expand in such a way and close down that ID to a smaller diameter?
> 
> Higher stem to compensate for taller fork? I would think the stem would need to go the other way...
> 
> When are we riding?


Good questions. Yeah, the expansion of metal is a little counter-intuitive. But if you think about what is happening the aluminum atoms are vibrating more at a higher temperature, causing a little more space between each atom. This happens throughout the material, even the ID where it does get bigger as a result of this extra atomic wiggle. Pretty neat stuff, really.

My position on the bike is definitely different than 18 years ago, but it is less Norba and more "have fun playing around". What I was feeling was with the big tires and ~80mm fork was that there was a lot of trail and the handling was slowing down more than i'd like. Taking some of the weight off the front wheel reduces the self-centering effect (and is better for my effed up back . So in this case, it works out well for me. If you were interested in maintaining a given riding position, you are absolutely right.

And i'll get in touch re: the ride  You can school me on pipeline again.

Oh, and 993rs, you are right. It was a lot of work for a marginal 3lb fork, but it was a cheap way to learn the feasibility of doing it on an awesome 3lb fork. I did used to have a TypeII fork (now owned by GOB), and rigid just isn't my thing with this bike. I'll happily pick up a late 80s fat (or whatever) and ride that rigid, but that isn't for my Phoenix. I'm not in the dirt enough to justify tons of bikes, though, so I just experiment with the ones I have.


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## 993rs (Dec 31, 2005)

yo-Nate-y said:


> But the *right* steel fork would cost more than the 1" WB suspension fork.


QUIRINGCYCLES.NET

Scott did a fork with a 1" steerer for my '96 Slingshot and just finished one for my '98 Wojcik. Both forks let me run a disc up front and the AC lenghts were adjusted to run a 650b wheel.

I am sure Rock Lobster, IF etc would do something for similiar $.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

GMF said:


> Good questions. Yeah, the expansion of metal is a little counter-intuitive. But if you think about what is happening the aluminum atoms are vibrating more at a higher temperature, causing a little more space between each atom. This happens throughout the material, even the ID where it does get bigger as a result of this extra atomic wiggle. Pretty neat stuff, really.
> 
> My position on the bike is definitely different than 18 years ago, but it is less Norba and more "have fun playing around". What I was feeling was with the big tires and ~80mm fork was that there was a lot of trail and the handling was slowing down more than i'd like. Taking some of the weight off the front wheel reduces the self-centering effect (and is better for my effed up back . So in this case, it works out well for me. If you were interested in maintaining a given riding position, you are absolutely right.
> 
> ...


I'm just wondering why those wiggling atoms wouldn't make the ID smaller on the crown. If the material that eventually touches the steerer tube expands doesn't that hole get smaller? I wonder if freezing both would allow for an easier fit since everything would be contracted. Does that make sense?

I've never really played around with this beyond a freezer and a heat gun and don't know much about it, but it's interesting.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I'm just wondering why those wiggling atoms wouldn't make the ID smaller on the crown. If the material that eventually touches the steerer tube expands doesn't that hole get smaller? I wonder if freezing both would allow for an easier fit since everything would be contracted. Does that make sense?
> 
> I've never really played around with this beyond a freezer and a heat gun and don't know much about it, but it's interesting.


I know what you are saying, but think of the inner surface of the hole that I bored for the new steerer tube. If you make that diameter smaller, you are stuffing the same number of atoms into a smaller space, opposite of what the atomic-wiggle-phenomenon needs and does.

Another way to think about it. A flat plate would get longer if you heat it up. For arguments sake, say you started with a 10" long flat plate, and you got it really hot so it grew to 10.1". If you managed to roll that hot flat plate into a cylinder, both the ID and OD would be bigger, right (in fact the ID would be about .032" bigger... the amount that the flat plate increased in length due to heat divided by pi).

I think the crux of the question is in the above analogy, why does the flat plate length matter more than the thickness, and I don't have a great answer for you there (sounds like I have a little more research to do). I just know that I measured the fork crown both hot and cold and saw about a .002" to .003" increase in inside diameter when hot.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

993rs said:


> I am sure Rock Lobster, IF etc would do something for similiar $.


There are plenty of fork makers, but I emphasized *right* for a reason. If GMF doesn't want a rigid Type II, that's cool too.


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Wow GMF, that's some mod. I admire the ingenuity.

I'll admit that I've largely steered away from this stuff in the past, wondering what the consequences might be. I've never really resolved what happens when two soft materials sheer against each other. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad, but how do you know? If your headset starts to loosen up, that would be a bad sign. In the end, I often add a dowel pin.

I think it is worth considering that most modern forks use a swaging operation whereby the steerer is flared at the bottom to captivate the steerer. I think a lot of parts also rely on industrial adhesives, which help to reduce manufacturing tolerances and cost. The quill on a Ringle stem and the spider on Syncros tubular cranks come to mind.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

DoubleCentury said:


> Wow GMF, that's some mod. I admire the ingenuity.
> 
> I'll admit that I've largely steered away from this stuff in the past, wondering what the consequences might be. I've never really resolved what happens when two soft materials sheer against each other. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad, but how do you know? If your headset starts to loosen up, that would be a bad sign. In the end, I often add a dowel pin.
> 
> I think it is worth considering that most modern forks use a swaging operation whereby the steerer is flared at the bottom to captivate the steerer. I think a lot of parts also rely on industrial adhesives, which help to reduce manufacturing tolerances and cost. The quill on a Ringle stem and the spider on Syncros tubular cranks come to mind.


Thanks for the comments. Initially, I did try to use an adhesive, but it sloughed right off the cold steerer, and immediately set in the hot crown, so it just got in the way. One of the nice things about using the RST steerer is that it does have a flange on the bottom which you can just barely see in the 2nd to last picture. It also has vertical knurling to help hold it rotationally. I do not think it will pull through.

The two failure modes I envision practically happening is the press fit was not sufficient for how hard (sorry... "hard") i ride and the crown looses up and can wobble back and forth acting like a loose headset. The other one is clearly the steerer being able to spin. Neither are catastrophic (but not desirable) and I bet I would be able to gently ride out of whatever situation. I've been surprised before, though.

I'll take the phrasing of "ingenuity" as a compliment ;-)


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

This weekend I got my dremel on and replaced the bearings on the front New Paradigm hub that had loosened up and were on their way out. After 17ish years of use, time was due. They rolled fine, it was just the play that was bugging me. Unfortunately, most things that could have gone wrong, did.

The first thing I had to do was split the metal rings outboard of the bearing. These were siezed to the axle with no real good way of getting any purchase on them. Remove one side and tap, tAp, TAP... out the axle.







Of course, the cone came with. Not much holding the cone in on an angular contact bearing.

Bearing one with no cone in there any more = hassle for removing outer race.







This bearing seemed like the one going bad (didn't grease guard enough, i guess)








The inner race popped out of both bearings, leaving me with the split and pound method of bearing removal.
...which i did:








I like my dremel a lot and it can really help me out in situations like this. Eventually got everything out and cleaned up the inside of the shell.








Then in goes the grease guard seal backer








Then the grease guard seal








Fortunately, Enduro is still providing a source for these inch-based bearings








I guess orange seals are cooler?








But of course, remove the inner seal to work with the grease guard (after I get some appropriate grease)








And finally, installed. A few times there I thought i completely messed up, but in the end it pulled through








I've decided i'm not a huge fan of micro-shims for setting bearing pre-load, but it seems like they work in the long run. There is the slightly tiniest of play in the front wheel (between shim thicknesses), but it rolls really well and is an improvement.

This gave up the "FCAC" bearings, but got the ceramic instead. I hope it will be an upgrade and last a while.

...slowly making improvements....


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Nice.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Hey!

I love your detailed posts of how you do things. Very informative and fun to read. I know it's a lot of effort to keep stopping and taking a picture but know that it's appreciated! Glad you got your wheel back together.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

girlonbike said:


> Hey!
> 
> I love your detailed posts of how you do things. Very informative and fun to read. I know it's a lot of effort to keep stopping and taking a picture but know that it's appreciated! Glad you got your wheel back together.


When I do projects I'm too excited/worried about the next step to worry about stopping to take photos. Nice work DC.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks for the comments, guys. This was a relatively straight forward project, although i didn't document the times i sat there thinking "WTF?". I'm also glad the carnage to the hub was minimal and largely hidden (grind marks in the bearing bore, etc.). There are a couple new dings from when i was tapping out the split race, but overall pretty subtle damage, er... patina. Gives me a good sense of what i'm in for when i locate that XTR titanium freehub body and axle to swap in (with the 'ramics)

DL - Dirt this weekend? Phoenii on pipeline?


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

No pictures this time, but swapped in an M965 XTR titanium freehub body and Ti axle along with the ceramic cartridge bearing in the rear hub. The XTR freehub is a tiny bit (like .010" larger diameter and just took a little grinding down to fit). Learned from the front hub process and made a little outer bearing race puller with a washer and axle and made significantly fewer chips (can take pics later, if any interest) when the rear cartridge bearing also came apart...

Also swapped the 2.4 tires with some 2.1s (works better with the narrow rims, i think), improved the cable routing of the toggle came = mo power, and was given a marzocchi marathon that may be getting the same steerer swap treatment to improve the front end of the phoenix.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

*Retro Sea Otter*

Been pretty busy so haven't been on mtbr a ton, but recently the Sea Otter Classic came through my neck of the woods (not sure if you've heard of it?), and I tried my first MTB race in about... 20 years. Entered Cat 3 middle aged, and tuned up the Phoenix.

It went pretty well - 4th out of 61 riders on an old school bike. She did well and it was fun. #2100 representing. May have to cat up for the local races 

-Damon


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## classen (Oct 7, 2009)

:thumbsup:


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