# Floating brake?



## Stratocaster (Sep 30, 2004)

Who's got them? How much? I've been to Brake Therapy site, is there any others?

Thanks


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

What do you ride?


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## FCLINDER (Sep 27, 2005)

I tried one on my Morewood Izumu this year. It got rid of all my brake jack. I don't know who makes Morewoods Floating brake system.


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## M1_joel (Mar 9, 2004)

i have had floating brakes on the past three bikes i have owned dating back to like 02. Gotta have it!


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

coma13 said:


> What do you ride?


basically if you have a single pivot or faux 4 bar linkage, having a floating brake will improve the performance of your bike against brake jack

now as coma said....what bike do you ride


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## Crash_Burn (Oct 8, 2004)

*Kona's got D.O.P.E.*



Stratocaster said:


> Who's got them? How much? I've been to Brake Therapy site, is there any others?
> 
> Thanks


Nice to see an integrated design


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## ^vindicator! (Aug 30, 2006)

wooow what in tha world is that chain supplement at right pedal????


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## ^vindicator! (Aug 30, 2006)

i mean left


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## KennyO (Apr 21, 2004)

*That's a jackshaft drive on a BMW (brooklyn machine works)*

But the real question is, where's the rear brake?


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## grahamjtriggs (Jun 26, 2005)

Anyone know if it would be a worthwhile investment for a vp-free? I'm kinda interested but I don't know if it'd make much difference with SC's VPP system.
Cheers


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## KennyO (Apr 21, 2004)

I haven't ridden a vp free, with or without, but if I had to guess, that design would probably squat under braking. Most people aren't bothered by that; some prefer it. The bikes that can benefit the most are the single pivot and faux bar types, and even only certain designs in those categories. I personally prefer braking forces isolated from my rear suspension, so I run one. however, my frame is a single pivot, a higher and forward pivot with elevated swingarm, so it is a very noticeable difference. I don't think you would notice a whole lot of difference on your frame.


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## Tarekith (Mar 9, 2005)

How exactly do these floating sytems work? What makes them improve your braking?


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## KennyO (Apr 21, 2004)

I'm sure you can find this debate multiple times over if you search this forum, but the short end of the story is that a floating brake setup allows the bottome point of your wheel to stay in contact with the ground through the range of suspension travel, regardless of what your axlepath does. If you think about your standard setup, which is the brake caliper fixed stationary to the swingarm, then the rear wheel becomes a single unit with the swingarm, which means that the bottom point of the wheel, which starts out in contact with the ground, will almost always kick out backwards as the suspension compresses. Depending on a few factors that are design specific, this may cause the rear suspension to either squat under braking, or squat then release, causing the "stinkbug" effect. This is what people understand to be "brake jack". You will only notice it in certain designs. Probably the one design that has the least brake effect on the suspension at all is a Horst Link setup, since that design is generally accomplishing what the addition of a floating brake does.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Crash_Burn said:


> Nice to see an integrated design


Yes, we worked hard on that, and Kona is licensing it from us. It removes all hub compatibility issues, makes wheel removal easier, and stays in the dropout when the wheel is removed. It's lighter as well.

Expect to see this on more bikes in the future.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2006)

If you are willing to spend the money on a floater, definately do it, they own!
I use the stock one from the classic V10, and I can feel no bumps while braking, its really cool. Plus it works somewhat like ABS, so your wheel doesnt lock up in the bumps as easy.
Definately worth getting one if you are fed up with brake squat/ jack..

oh and like the 20th time, what bike do you have? this will determin if you are floater capable....


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## KennyO (Apr 21, 2004)

That looks nice, I notice a couple of bolts and nuts on that dropout. Is it just retrofitted, will the future ones be a one-piece dropout?


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

grahamjtriggs said:


> Anyone know if it would be a worthwhile investment for a vp-free? I'm kinda interested but I don't know if it'd make much difference with SC's VPP system.
> Cheers


Here's a pic of the vp-free setup. And yes, those customers are just as enthusiastic about it as all our other customers. If you want to try it, just remember, we have a money back guarantee that you'll love it. Nobody's asked for a refund yet....


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2006)

shock said:


> Here's a pic of the vp-free setup. And yes, those customers are just as enthusiastic about it as all our other customers. If you want to try it, just remember, we have a money back guarantee that you'll love it. Nobody's asked for a refund yet....


It looks like it belongs on the free. Nice work


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## Tarekith (Mar 9, 2005)

Thanks, that VP pic makes it easier to see how this works. Thanks for the explanation too.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Tarekith said:


> How exactly do these floating sytems work? What makes them improve your braking?


Here's a more simple explanation (I hope). Without a floating brake, the brake caliper must transmit the braking force into the suspension. When the brake pads squeeze the disc, this force tries to break the bolts holding the caliper onto the suspension. Since the th ebolts don't break, the force goes into the swingarm.

On ALL bikes except the lawill type designs, this force tries to compress the suspension. What this really means is that the suspension does not want to extend after compressing for a bump. So the wheel is off the ground, and when it hits the next bump, it does so with the suspension already partly compressed. Result? Less braking power, less suspension travel and plushness. Less comfort and control.

This is true of fsr, dw, vpp and every other magical linkage bike. The primary factor in determining how bad this is is pivot location. Fsr's aren't as bad as, say a Bullit, because the pivot is much lower, not because an fsr in any way, shape or form can simulate a floating brake. Why not? because the caliper is still bolted to the very same piece of metal that the wheel and shock are drivin by.

You'll notice on the vp pic above, the brake caliper is bolted to a separate carrier, which rotates around the axle on bearings. When you hit the brakes, the brake force is transmitted to the frame by the rod, in a preferably neutral direction, that doesn't influence the suspension, allowing it to work the same whether you're on the brakes or not. This is the ONLY way to do this, no matter what other marketing hype may claim....

Hope this helps.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

KennyO said:


> That looks nice, I notice a couple of bolts and nuts on that dropout. Is it just retrofitted, will the future ones be a one-piece dropout?


The removable dropout will be on all Stinky and Coiler, and possible Dawg models. It's nice because there is a version for qr, 10 mm (saint) and 12 mm thru axle options on each of these bikes, just by changing the dropout.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> It looks like it belongs on the free. Nice work


Thanks, and btw, we did a similar retro for the v-10 that worked much better than the stock unit. it got a great review here, but I think all the pics were removed.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=14591


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

and here's the new v-10


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## grahamjtriggs (Jun 26, 2005)

Thanks for the info, shock.

I'm very interested now, since you have tried and tested it on a VP-Free. When you say 'our customers' I presume you are involved in the brake therapy systems? If that's right, I have a some of questions:

Will it fit an '06 VP-Free med. frame, and a Hope Pro II rear hub?
I live in the UK, so where can I get one? 
How much do they cost?
Are there any colours to choose from?

This is probably on the website but I'll check here too.

Info would be appreciated


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## derfernerf (Jun 25, 2006)

what is the difference between a normal brake


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

grahamjtriggs said:


> Thanks for the info, shock.
> 
> I'm very interested now, since you have tried and tested it on a VP-Free. When you say 'our customers' I presume you are involved in the brake therapy systems? If that's right, I have a some of questions:
> 
> ...


Yes, this is Brian, owner of therapy components, and designer of this stuff.

Yes, it will fit your bike and hub just fine. You can order direct from us with a visa or mc.US$295.00, which again, comes with a money back guarantee that you'll love it.

Standard color (or colour) is the gunmetal shown, but for $50 we'll have it anodized any colour (or color) you want.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

KennyO said:


> I'm sure you can find this debate multiple times over if you search this forum, but the short end of the story is that a floating brake setup allows the bottome point of your wheel to stay in contact with the ground through the range of suspension travel, regardless of what your axlepath does. If you think about your standard setup, which is the brake caliper fixed stationary to the swingarm, then the rear wheel becomes a single unit with the swingarm, which means that the bottom point of the wheel, which starts out in contact with the ground, will almost always kick out backwards as the suspension compresses. Depending on a few factors that are design specific, this may cause the rear suspension to either squat under braking, or squat then release, causing the "stinkbug" effect. This is what people understand to be "brake jack". You will only notice it in certain designs. Probably the one design that has the least brake effect on the suspension at all is a Horst Link setup, since that design is generally accomplishing what the addition of a floating brake does.


another way to look at it........here is how it was explained to me.....your rear end locks the suspension in a place.....so it is kind of like a hardtail......when you hit bumps the bike bounces or hops thru those rough sections


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

grahamjtriggs said:


> Anyone know if it would be a worthwhile investment for a vp-free? I'm kinda interested but I don't know if it'd make much difference with SC's VPP system.
> Cheers


*every bike *would benefit from a floating brake system, even FSR Horst links....

most racers on the VPP (Santa Cruz and Intense) don't run the floating brakes


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2006)

shock said:


> Yes, this is Brian, owner of therapy components, and designer of this stuff.
> 
> Yes, it will fit your bike and hub just fine. You can order direct from us with a visa or mc.US$295.00, which again, comes with a money back guarantee that you'll love it.
> 
> Standard *color (or colour)* is the gunmetal shown, but for $50 we'll have it anodized any *colour (or color)* you want.


it even uses every different contry's englishes!


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## dropmachine.com (Apr 8, 2004)

As I understand it, a floater changes the way braking forces are distributed into the frame. For example, instead of the forces being sent directly into your swingarm, now they would be sent along the shaft and into the mainframe. 

Best example I've seen is the Kona that was set up at the Toronto Trade show. 

They had two rear brakes installed, one on the swingarm and one on the floater. They cranked it up to a good RPM, then honked each brake. With the swingarm brake, the whole system jumped, and compressed the shock. With the floater, nothing moved. This will translate into a bike that is happy on the trails, just rockin along without braking influence on the suspension. 


Please cue Brian to explain how it really works. Hold on though, this guy has enough techno details to blow yer brain up.


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## derfernerf (Jun 25, 2006)

nobody told me what was the difference


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2006)

derfernerf said:


> nobody told me what was the difference


without a floating brake, on say a single pivot frame, when you apply the rear brake while going over bumps, the wheel kinda skips over the bumps and makes it rough and locks the suspension up, in a compressed posistion. With a floating brake, the wheel tracks smoothly over the bumps, with no negative effects on the suspension.

Understand?


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## rbx (Mar 14, 2004)

Brake forces are transmitted from the ground (tire contact patch)_up about 50degrees if the main pivot cross this force vector then the suspension will be neutral, this can only happen in 1 place during the suspension travel.


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## derfernerf (Jun 25, 2006)

> without a floating brake, on say a single pivot frame, when you apply the rear brake while going over bumps, the wheel kinda skips over the bumps and makes it rough and locks the suspension up, in a compressed posistion. With a floating brake, the wheel tracks smoothly over the bumps, with no negative effects on the suspension.


so if you dont have it the wheel hops over the bumps when you pull the rear brake,but with it the wheel goes with the high and low places of the bump and makes stopping better.....am i right?


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## Ridge Rider (Sep 21, 2005)

Crash_Burn said:


> Nice to see an integrated design


This is the new Kona set-up which looks sweet.

Shock - your designs are allways shown with the floating caliper connecting rod roughly parallel to the swingarm. Can you explain why Fabien Barel ran his with the connecting rod bolted to the lower mounting point on the Stab creating an instant center behind the main pivot instead of the parallel arrangement?


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## WheelieMan (Jan 19, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> another way to look at it........here is how it was explained to me.....your rear end locks the suspension in a place.....so it is kind of like a hardtail......when you hit bumps the bike bounces or hops thru those rough sections


Not really. Instead of being locked in place, brake squat/jack causes the suspension to move. Hence the terms "jack" and "squat". This might feel like the suspension is locked up, because when the suspension is forced into a position further in the travel than it would be if no brake was applied, the effective springrate of the shock is increased, and the available travel is also reduced, causing the suspension to feel much more harsh.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

dropmachine.com said:


> As I understand it, a floater changes the way braking forces are distributed into the frame. For example, instead of the forces being sent directly into your swingarm, now they would be sent along the shaft and into the mainframe.
> 
> Best example I've seen is the Kona that was set up at the Toronto Trade show.
> 
> ...


Yea, I came up with that last year at Interbike, we'll have one in our booth this year as well (booth #160, come on by and see all the cool new stuff: sc fork, instant engagement hub). People would literally jump back when you hit the non-floating brake and the wheel jumped up, very dramatic demo. I'll have a video of it on our website soon.

When Kona saw it it blew their mind, it basically sold them on the system that's coming on their bikes now, and they wanted a demo for their booth as well, so I desingned a demo using their frame.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

derfernerf said:


> so if you dont have it the wheel hops over the bumps when you pull the rear brake,but with it the wheel goes with the high and low places of the bump and makes stopping better.....am i right?


EXACTLY! Not only is stopping better, but comfort and control as well, because the suspension can actually do it's job without a totally new force compromising all the dialed in spring and damping rates.

When testing, sometimes you literally wonder where the braking bumps went when trying a floater.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Ridge Rider said:


> This is the new Kona set-up which looks sweet.
> 
> Shock - your designs are allways shown with the floating caliper connecting rod roughly parallel to the swingarm. Can you explain why Fabien Barel ran his with the connecting rod bolted to the lower mounting point on the Stab creating an instant center behind the main pivot instead of the parallel arrangement?


Well the easy explanation is that Fabien's a freak (and he knows it), because nobody else can seem to ride it that way. He has his bike set up mainly for cornering, and low ride height. So his setup has some compression under braking, but still allows some floating.

He also has his fork and shock setup in a very peculiar way. His basic premise is that most wc courses don't need so much travel, and he does everything he can to keep the bike low. He also believes this gives him some extra load/unload when exiting the corner, which helps him accelerate.

We're working on something for next year to try to give him the best of both worlds, maximum floating effect, combined with those other characteristics he wants. If I can get it worked out, watch out!!!


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

rbx said:


> Brake forces are transmitted from the ground (tire contact patch)_up about 50degrees if the main pivot cross this force vector then the suspension will be neutral, this can only happen in 1 place during the suspension travel.


You're leaving out one important interaction, that is the reaction force of the caliper into the frame, independant of the tire contact patch. That is what makes the demo so dramatic, without the tire even touching the ground.


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## Tomasz (Feb 28, 2005)

shock said:


> Expect to see this on more bikes in the future.


Hi Brian,

I have a question similar to the one grahamjtriggs has asked, just different bike+hub combo: I'm riding Yeti AS-X with a Rohloff Speedhub 500/14, which is a unique gizmo requiring so-called _Speedbone_ to mount a disc brake calliper (not to mention some other proprietary pieces such as axle plate), so I wonder whether the two inventions would mate (?!)

Thanks in advance for clarification,
-Tomasz


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

I have a floater on my Haro 357 that I can pretty easily remove and reinstall. I recently had lots of spare time and removed the floater for the first time, What a difference it makes, fast bumps are rough and the bikes tends to skip/bounce out of control. I can see where some World cup courses and a Mount Snow pro course would be OK if you didn;t have the floater but steep tech stuff a floating brake is a must. 

Another easy test to see what it does is to sit on the bike with a floater, lock the rear brake and slowly compress the rear end and let it up. Then do the same with a bike that has no floater. The bike with a floater will cycle thru the sag like the brake is off.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Tomasz said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> I have a question similar to the one grahamjtriggs has asked, just different bike+hub combo: I'm riding Yeti AS-X with a Rohloff Speedhub 500/14, which is a unique gizmo requiring so-called _Speedbone_ to mount a disc brake calliper (not to mention some other proprietary pieces such as axle plate), so I wonder whether the two inventions would mate (?!)
> 
> ...


Tomasz,

Sorry for the delay addressing this, Interbike has kinda dominated my last week or two...
I believe I have an email from you as well.

Unfortunately, the Rohloff hub is not compatible with our aftermarket floating brakes. They just don't leave any room for us to fit our stuff in there.

But if it's one of our oe designs such as Kona's DOPE, or the Trek Session 77 floater, it will work fine. This is because in these designs, we are enclosing the floater in the dropout, which removes any hub compatibility issues. Theoretically, we can do this with any bike that has a replacable dropout, and we're encouraging more manufacturers to do this, so expect to see more in the future.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

boogenman said:


> I have a floater on my Haro 357 that I can pretty easily remove and reinstall. I recently had lots of spare time and removed the floater for the first time, What a difference it makes, fast bumps are rough and the bikes tends to skip/bounce out of control. I can see where some World cup courses and a Mount Snow pro course would be OK if you didn;t have the floater but steep tech stuff a floating brake is a must.


What he said....


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## Tomasz (Feb 28, 2005)

shock said:


> Tomasz,
> 
> Sorry for the delay addressing this, Interbike has kinda dominated my last week or two...
> I believe I have an email from you as well.


Yep, it was my email, and I did get your reply -- thanks. And no worries: I've figured you must have been pretty busy @ Interbike. Actually, I'm finding you amazingly responsive, which is something I truly appreciate!



> Unfortunately, the Rohloff hub is not compatible with our aftermarket floating brakes. They just don't leave any room for us to fit our stuff in there.
> 
> But if it's one of our oe designs such as Kona's DOPE, or the Trek Session 77 floater, it will work fine. This is because in these designs, we are enclosing the floater in the dropout, which removes any hub compatibility issues. Theoretically, we can do this with any bike that has a replaceable dropout.


Have to double-check, but don't think Yeti AS-X has replaceable dropouts... 
...but I always instinctively knew that _dope_ must be good for you


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

shock said:


> ...but I think all the pics were removed.


MTBR upgraded photo servers a while ago so the photo on the old server were lost. That is a bummer as a lot of those threads are still active. The V-10 floating brake thread for one.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

shock said:


> Here's a more simple explanation (I hope). Without a floating brake, the brake caliper must transmit the braking force into the suspension. When the brake pads squeeze the disc, this force tries to break the bolts holding the caliper onto the suspension. Since the th ebolts don't break, the force goes into the swingarm.
> 
> On ALL bikes except the lawill type designs, this force tries to compress the suspension. What this really means is that the suspension does not want to extend after compressing for a bump. So the wheel is off the ground, and when it hits the next bump, it does so with the suspension already partly compressed. Result? Less braking power, less suspension travel and plushness. Less comfort and control.
> 
> ...


If this simplified explanation isn't on your site, it should be.

CraigH <-- Another happy Brake Therapy customer
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=8668


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Tomasz said:


> Yep, it was my email, and I did get your reply -- thanks. And no worries: I've figured you must have been pretty busy @ Interbike. Actually, I'm finding you amazingly responsive, which is something I truly appreciate!
> 
> Have to double-check, but don't think Yeti AS-X has replaceable dropouts...
> ...but I always instinctively knew that _dope_ must be good for you


Well I try to answer as time allows. since I've been tired from Interbike and trying to avoid work, it lets me spend more time with these things. Some times I'm not so quick....

I'm thinking of some ads for Kona, like "this is your bike on DOPE", showing it on some knarly DH or something. Or "why do you think they call it DOPE".

Not sure they'll listen to me though...


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

CraigH said:


> If this simplified explanation isn't on your site, it should be.
> 
> CraigH <-- Another happy Brake Therapy customer
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=8668


Yeah, I know. And what I really need is a video of the demo I had at Interbike, that I also made a version of for Kona. It's pretty dramatic and leaves no question as to what's happening.


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## nuclear 674 (Jul 11, 2005)

I own a 05 stinky d and this is the best upgrade i have made. Definately makes the bike work better under braking.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

nuclear 674 said:


> I own a 05 stinky d and this is the best upgrade i have made. Definately makes the bike work better under braking.


Man, i love that comment "best upgrade I have made".

I hear it a lot, and never get tired of it. Thanks.


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## nuclear 674 (Jul 11, 2005)

Your welcome. When a product works as advertised you have to give it props.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

shock said:


> Man, i love that comment "best upgrade I have made".
> 
> I hear it a lot, and never get tired of it. Thanks.


my best upgrade for my Stinky was buying a Big hit


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> my best upgrade for my Stinky was buying a Big hit


Ya, but a floater would've been a LOT cheaper, and it would brake better over bumps than your big hit.....


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## persing (Sep 20, 2005)

Is there any particular reason of arranging floater and floating caliper connecting rod parallel to the swingarm? Does this arrangement differ on various suspension systems (VPP, FSR, Maestro...)? And last question-are brake therapy components available in Europe? Thanks.


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

Brake jack is a myth!! 

You want "some" brake squat. Eliminating it all together with a Neutral therapy is weird imo. 

Best description is my old Kona Sticky Supreme. It came with two spots for therapy, the top one a Neutral position no brake squat. The bottom, was requested by Fabian Barrel because it has a certain amount of brake squat. It squat’s a little under braking matching the ft. end, for better turns and would become more stable.

Most low sp don't have bad Brake-Jack either (Like Turner DHR). The High SP suffer from it more. My Coiler and esp my Blitz (low-sp) have no problems with brake-jack. But have a nice brake squat.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

persing said:


> Is there any particular reason of arranging floater and floating caliper connecting rod parallel to the swingarm? Does this arrangement differ on various suspension systems (VPP, FSR, Maestro...)? And last question-are brake therapy components available in Europe? Thanks.


In general, you want the connecting rod parallel or near parallel to a line that connects the swingarm pivot to the rear axle. This gives neutral action under braking (i.e., no compression or extension due to brake force).

This is true regardless of suspension system, but with the multi link bikes, the location of the effective pivot in space might not be so obvious (as it is created by the connecting links), and moves as the suspension compresses.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

#1ORBUST said:


> Brake jack is a myth!!
> 
> You want "some" brake squat. Eliminating it all together with a Neutral therapy is weird imo.
> 
> ...


Fabian's request was based on his opinion that WC courses were too smooth, and he didn't need the suspension travel. True, some squat might be more stable when it's smooth, but when it's choppy, that squat, and the associated suspension stiffness actually cause the rear of the bike to be higher off the ground, due to the wheel getting kicked up. Not stable at all!

Yes higher pivots are worse, but all are affected. The '07 Coiler comes setup for the floater OE , and everyone at Kona loves it. (me too, on my coiler). Try it, you might like it too...

Money back guarantee.....


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## Baysh (Dec 3, 2005)

*04 coilers*



shock said:


> Fabian's request was based on his opinion that WC courses were too smooth, and he didn't need the suspension travel. True, some squat might be more stable when it's smooth, but when it's choppy, that squat, and the associated suspension stiffness actually cause the rear of the bike to be higher off the ground, due to the wheel getting kicked up. Not stable at all!
> 
> Yes higher pivots are worse, but all are affected. The '07 Coiler comes setup for the floater OE , and everyone at Kona loves it. (me too, on my coiler). Try it, you might like it too...
> 
> Money back guarantee.....


Is there a setup for the 04 coilers? thanks.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Baysh said:


> Is there a setup for the 04 coilers? thanks.


Sure thing. Give me a call at 765 528-2138, or drop me an email at [email protected]


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## rhd (Sep 22, 2006)

serioulsy.....WHO gives a money back guarantee...... NO ONE..except someone that's confident enough to not have to worry about it. Man that's ballsy...i deff applaud you on the innovation. If/when it comes time for me to go full squish...you bet your ass i'm hitting you up for a setup for myself.


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## J.I. (Dec 30, 2003)

Here´s the demo from Kona website:

http://www.konaworld.com/dope.htm


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## Lt.Saad (Feb 24, 2006)

I'm sold. Anyone know the cost? I cant seem to find it on the web site. And where can i get them in Canada?


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## rhd (Sep 22, 2006)

$295 us funds


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## persing (Sep 20, 2005)

2Shock: I was trying to acces your web site but I couldn' t. What's wrong? And are your products available in Europe? Floating brake seems to be a very good upgrade for a bike.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Lt.Saad said:


> And where can i get them in Canada?


I bought mine direct from Brake Therapy.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

rhd said:


> serioulsy.....WHO gives a money back guarantee...... NO ONE..except someone that's confident enough to not have to worry about it. Man that's ballsy...i deff applaud you on the innovation. If/when it comes time for me to go full squish...you bet your ass i'm hitting you up for a setup for myself.


I really did that to counter all th enegative propagand from people that never tried our floaters.

And no one has ever asked for there money back....

We'll be here when you're ready.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

persing said:


> 2Shock: I was trying to acces your web site but I couldn' t. What's wrong? And are your products available in Europe? Floating brake seems to be a very good upgrade for a bike.


what was the problem when you tried to access the site? I'll checkk it out.


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## revmonkey (Jun 5, 2005)

okay, for those of you that don't get what mr. brian's product does for you:
watch the little video on the bottom of the page.

http://www.konaworld.com/dope.htm

edit: J.I beat me.

edit edit: watching it again, that looks like a not-blue guy from the blue man group.


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

shock said:


> I really did that to counter all th enegative propagand from people that never tried our floaters.
> 
> And no one has ever asked for there money back....
> 
> We'll be here when you're ready.


I really hope you're not saying I was spitting e-propaganda because that's BS!! I've been on a Brake Thearpy for over a year!


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## persing (Sep 20, 2005)

2Shock: Now your web site works. I don't now what is wrong. And to the video on Kona web site. If the brake caliper was positioned on the swingarm the way that the brake force (or friction force or in particular it's extension) would go through the main pivot there would be no suspension movement. Am I wrong?


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## TheProphet (May 31, 2005)

Shock: I understand that Cannondale makes one for their Judge but they require that you get a new 135mm rear wheel. Do you make one for a 07 Judge that allows you to keep the 150mm rear wheel? Thank you.


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## bpnic (Aug 14, 2005)

Any used ones out there for a Session 77?
I just don't have $300. 
I'm sure it's worth every penny, but....used suits my budget right now.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

#1ORBUST said:


> I really hope you're not saying I was spitting e-propaganda because that's BS!! I've been on a Brake Thearpy for over a year!


Well actually I wasn't, as we've been offering the money back guarantee for about 8 or 9 years, for the very reason I stated.

but your opening comment "brake jack is a myth" might be construed as that. No myth there, it's a very real physical phenomenon.

BTW, technically speaking the '06 Konas did not have brake therapy. It was a floating brake, but had a couple of issues that prevented it from working optimally.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

persing said:


> 2Shock: Now your web site works. I don't now what is wrong. And to the video on Kona web site. If the brake caliper was positioned on the swingarm the way that the brake force (or friction force or in particular it's extension) would go through the main pivot there would be no suspension movement. Am I wrong?


Well, glad it's fixed, whatever it was....

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking about the video. If you're talking about the fixed (non-floating) caliper, it doesn't matter where it's located. The reaction force of the caliper/pads grabbing the disc is the same, no matter where the caliper is mounted.

In the case of the video, you're seeing the torque reaction on the suspension without the floater.

What you're not seeing, which has a similar effect, is the reaction of the tire at the ground.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

TheProphet said:


> Shock: I understand that Cannondale makes one for their Judge but they require that you get a new 135mm rear wheel. Do you make one for a 07 Judge that allows you to keep the 150mm rear wheel? Thank you.


Yes, but it depends on which hub. If it's the stock hub, I believe that's a formula, which we can usually work with. Other 150 mm hubs that work, Hope Pro 2, Hadley, Azonic Outlaw, Syncros, probably a couple more I'm not thinking of.


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## persing (Sep 20, 2005)

2Shock: Thanks for reply. I admire you because you are so patient when answering our questions. :thumbsup:


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## TheProphet (May 31, 2005)

shock said:


> Yes, but it depends on which hub. If it's the stock hub, I believe that's a formula, which we can usually work with. Other 150 mm hubs that work, Hope Pro 2, Hadley, Azonic Outlaw, Syncros, probably a couple more I'm not thinking of.


Actually it is a Sun Ringle Abbah Lawwill 12mm Thru hub. Any luck with that? Thanks for the quick reply.


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## Ridge Rider (Sep 21, 2005)

revmonkey said:


> okay, for those of you that don't get what mr. brian's product does for you:
> watch the little video on the bottom of the page.
> 
> http://www.konaworld.com/dope.htm
> ...


This demonstration allthough dramatic is not representative of what happens in a real riding situation. The spring has been removed from the shock to accentuate the action but that is not what is wrong here. In real world braking the tire contact patch force comes into play which in general will cause compression of the rear suspension. As well the inertia of the mass of the rider and bike will produce forces that will cause extension of the rear suspension. By clamping the bike to a stand these 2 forces are removed from the situation. In the real world, the floating brake does *not *remove all braking forces from the suspension. What it does is change the tire contact patch force from being compressive to being neutral (assuming parallel geometry). There is still the extension force from the mass inertia. The floating brake will make the bike more supple over bumps but the bike will tend to lift in the back end and compress in the front end more. Fabian Barel runs his floating brake in a non parallel geometry on Kona's lower mount to achieve even more compression in the rear end than without the floater. He gives up the suppleness to get the bike to squat or to not dive as much as he applies the brakes. coming into a corner.

I am not saying that the floating brake is not going to be good for your bike and your riding style, all I am saying is that the demonstration on the video is not at all like the real world


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

TheProphet said:


> Actually it is a Sun Ringle Abbah Lawwill 12mm Thru hub. Any luck with that? Thanks for the quick reply.


oh ya, I forgot, Ringles are easy, work well with the floater, you just leave the loose spacer on the ground when it falls out. Floater takes it's place.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Ridge Rider said:


> This demonstration allthough dramatic is not representative of what happens in a real riding situation. The spring has been removed from the shock to accentuate the action but that is not what is wrong here. In real world braking the tire contact patch force comes into play which in general will cause compression of the rear suspension. As well the inertia of the mass of the rider and bike will produce forces that will cause extension of the rear suspension. By clamping the bike to a stand these 2 forces are removed from the situation. In the real world, the floating brake does *not *remove all braking forces from the suspension. What it does is change the tire contact patch force from being compressive to being neutral (assuming parallel geometry). There is still the extension force from the mass inertia. The floating brake will make the bike more supple over bumps but the bike will tend to lift in the back end and compress in the front end more. Fabian Barel runs his floating brake in a non parallel geometry on Kona's lower mount to achieve even more compression in the rear end than without the floater. He gives up the suppleness to get the bike to squat or to not dive as much as he applies the brakes. coming into a corner.
> 
> I am not saying that the floating brake is not going to be good for your bike and your riding style, all I am saying is that the demonstration on the video is not at all like the real world


What? A riderless frame on a stand with no spring, not representative of real life??? Stop it sarcasm, just stop it!

No, seriously. Of course it's just a demonstration, but rest assured, the forces in play and the reaction thereof are indeed quite real, and quite realistic.

Did you see any wires pulling the suspension up? No, just the torque reaction from the pads/caliper transmitted into the frame. The same thing happens with a rider and a spring, on an actual trail.

And yes, you are correct, the reaction at the tire ground interface is not shown (I mentioned this a couple posts earlier), but it causes the same problem, i.e. compression of the suspension, which is more an inability of the suspension to extend on the back side of the bump, causing the wheel to come off the ground and hit the next bump partially compressed, making it extra harsh...all bad..

The floating brake DOES remove the braking force, both from the torque shown in the demo, and the tire/ground interface. The weight transfer forward is not a "braking force". For example, it will happen due to any form of decelleration (i.e. hitting a wall), and will be present even on a hardtail (can you say nose wheelie?) We are talking about the braking force transmitted to the rear suspension from the torque reaction and tire.

Also, yes, on smooth ground, a bike with a floater will have a higher rear ride height than without. But on bumpy ground, the rear bouncing up in the air causes the rear to be higher without the floater. So if you're braking on smooth ground, the floater offers no benefit, but then neither does the suspension, so you might as well be on a hardtail...

I've also discussed Fabian's setup quite a bit. He feels he doesn't need all the travel anyway on wc courses, and has his suspension specifically setup to augment cornering.

Hope this clarifies a little (or stirs it up as the case may be, sorry it's late).


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## Crash_Burn (Oct 8, 2004)

*The Shocker Revealed*



shock said:


> Of course it's just a demonstration, but rest assured, the forces in play and the reaction thereof are indeed quite real, and quite realistic.


I never ride without a spring - weird how you think this is realistic. This is an over dramatization of brake force.



shock said:


> No, just the torque reaction from the pads/caliper transmitted into the frame.


This DEMO shows how much they rear tire WEIGHS!

Put a lighter wheel in this demo and it's not as dramatic.



shock said:


> compression of the suspension, which is more an inability of the suspension to extend on the back side of the bump, causing the wheel to come off the ground and hit the next bump partially compressed, making it extra harsh...all bad.


Firstly, how about not riding the brakes through this section you are describing, flying over the bumps and letting the shock do the work.

Secondly as soon as the rear brake is released on the "back side of the bump" as you put it the rear wheel will be wanting to extend, is this a bad thing? Rather than the rider traveling further towards the ground then putting demand on the rebound circuit to stay in control as the rear wheel extends?

Does D.O.P.E make the rider change the rebound circuit to a higher or lower speed?



shock said:


> The floating brake DOES remove the braking force, both from the torque shown in the demo, and the tire/ground interface. The weight transfer forward is not a "braking force"...


Have you ever thought about as the rear wheel travels into the mid stroke of the spring that the rider may gain more control. That brake squat takes away the small bump sensitivity and moves the rider to the better part of the spring travel? and that removing brake force removes a feedback loop to the rider?

I'm personally not Anti D.O.P.E, but adding D.O.P.E may be taking away braking force that a rider might use to their advantage.

Brake force as you describe can actually help exit a high speed corner, slightly applying the rear brake along with body english can help counter steer the bike and create a quick weight shift to bring the bike upright and ready for the next move.

This is a rider style thing and maybe present because bike designs have made riders adopt this style, but it works and sometimes adding complexity (D.O.P.E) to a bike is not worth the trade off of simplicity.

I see biking as very dynamic and removing some of the dynamics may help in certain situations, but does it help in a majority of situations? I kind of think not - I think the quality of the rear spring matters more to the riders ability to stay in contact with the ground then removing brake forces for a majority of riding conditions.

Kona puts D.O.P.E on a limited number of their bikes for a reason - only time will tell whether they add more D.O.P.E to their bike line or remove it all together. The market will decide.

Thanks for putting yourself out their and pimping your product in this forum.


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## WheelieMan (Jan 19, 2004)

Crash_Burn said:


> I never ride without a spring - weird how you think this is realistic. This is an over dramatization of brake force.


You just don't get it do you...

If a spring would have been in place for that demo, then it would be very difficult for the viewer to actually see what's going on here. Let's face it, most riders either don't have any idea what brake "jack" is, consider it to be an extending force when in 99% of cases it is not, or believe that it completely freezes the suspension. I cannot think of better way to display this phenomena.



Crash_Burn said:


> Firstly, how about not riding the brakes through this section you are describing, flying over the bumps and letting the shock do the work.


That's the most absurd thing I have ever heard. When riding we do not always get to brake in the most optimal places. Plus, if brake jack is such a beneficial thing, then why wouldn't I want to "ride my brakes through this section." The whole point of "neutral braking" is that you can "let the shock do the work" at all times. Squatting geometry does not "let the shock do the work" at all times.



Crash_Burn said:


> Secondly as soon as the rear brake is released on the "back side of the bump" as you put it the rear wheel will be wanting to extend, is this a bad thing? Rather than the rider traveling further towards the ground then putting demand on the rebound circuit to stay in control as the rear wheel extends?
> 
> Does D.O.P.E make the rider change the rebound circuit to a higher or lower speed?


???


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## Huck Banzai (May 8, 2005)

I find it amusing that 'lay people' are doubting a proven fact. This man is an experienced suspension EXPERT, with a BOATLOAD of practical experience; WINNING experience. This is not a shiny bauble being touted by some corporate entity with no connection to the application - this is the real thing. Floating brakes have been around a while, and their usage is ever increasing - there is a correlation to be made there.

The demo was designed to DEMONSTRATE the principle at hand, depsite being somewhat exaggetrated visually, it is indicative of a significant effect and the floater clearly mitigates that entirely.

If you dont see it, feel it, want it - FINE, but thats your bias and preconceived notions undermining your potential benefit.

If you dont care, SUPER.

But get off the soapbox - pure haturation.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Huck Banzai said:


> I find it amusing that 'lay people' are doubting a proven fact. This man is an experienced suspension EXPERT, with a BOATLOAD of practical experience; WINNING experience. This is not a shiny bauble being touted by some corporate entity with no connection to the application - this is the real thing. Floating brakes have been around a while, and their usage is ever increasing - there is a correlation to be made there.
> 
> The demo was designed to DEMONSTRATE the principle at hand, depsite being somewhat exaggetrated visually, it is indicative of a significant effect and the floater clearly mitigates that entirely.
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks for the love (you too wheelie man). I appreciate it.

Crash_burn, I do plan on addressing your comments, I'm just a little busy/tired, but I will get back to you.


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## Ridge Rider (Sep 21, 2005)

shock said:


> What? A riderless frame on a stand with no spring, not representative of real life??? Stop it sarcasm, just stop it!
> 
> No, seriously. Of course it's just a demonstration, but rest assured, the forces in play and the reaction thereof are indeed quite real, and quite realistic.
> 
> ...


The tire contact patch force causes a compressive action on the rear suspension of a bike with a floater. This force is not removed from the rear suspension by the floater. With typical geometries and a parallel set-up the net effect of the contact patch force and the action of the caliper force through the floater rod and the reaction at the axle from the caliper force and the contact patch force is approximately neutral which results in a net pitching forward of the bike on decelleration and an increase in bump absorption ability of the suspension.


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## ferday (Jan 15, 2004)

> Have you ever thought about as the rear wheel travels into the mid stroke of the spring that the rider may gain more control. That brake squat takes away the small bump sensitivity and moves the rider to the better part of the spring travel? and that removing brake force removes a feedback loop to the rider?





> The tire contact patch force causes a compressive action on the rear suspension of a bike with a floater. This force is not removed from the rear suspension by the floater. With typical geometries and a parallel set-up the net effect of the contact patch force and the action of the caliper force through the floater rod and the reaction at the axle from the caliper force and the contact patch force is approximately neutral which results in a net pitching forward of the bike on decelleration and an increase in bump absorption ability of the suspension.


the best part of the internet....when every 16 year old jackass is an engineer.


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## phib1134 (Dec 20, 2006)

M1_joel said:


> i have had floating brakes on the past three bikes i have owned dating back to like 02. Gotta have it!


what kinda bike is that


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## Huck Banzai (May 8, 2005)

BMW Race Link.


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## klunky (Nov 3, 2005)

Clearly the Demo on that Kona that "shock" made is a lot of utter crap.
What he should have done is have a rider on a FULLY FUNCTIONING bike encased in some sort glass box for everyone to see. The bike could then have been ridden on a moving conveyer belt with actual rocks glued onto it to demonstrate the 2 two braking scenarios (floater and non floater)

I dunno I guess the the guys at brake therapy are just lazy......

PS brake therapy have let me experiance the best customer service I have recieved anywhere.


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## Danke (Sep 19, 2005)

klunky said:


> Clearly the Demo on that Kona that "shock" made is a lot of utter crap.
> What he should have done is have a rider on a FULLY FUNCTIONING bike encased in some sort glass box for everyone to see. The bike could then have been ridden on a moving conveyer belt with actual rocks glued onto it to demonstrate the 2 two braking scenarios (floater and non floater)
> 
> I dunno I guess the the guys at brake therapy are just lazy......
> ...


Kona did have a few riders enclosed in glass boxes but they forgot the airholes and they all suffocated. You'll notice the team is a bit smaller now.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Crash_Burn said:


> I never ride without a spring - weird how you think this is realistic. This is an over dramatization of brake force.
> 
> This DEMO shows how much they rear tire WEIGHS!
> 
> Put a lighter wheel in this demo and it's not as dramatic.


Ok, I'm back. And pardon my fractured response style.

I guess you missed my opening sarcasm above, about the "realism" of the demo. What I DID say, was that the forces in play and the reaction thereof are indeed quite real, and realistic.

Think about a shock dyno. No spring, no frame, no rider, no suspension. But a very real measure of damping forces produced at given velocities. Real and realistic? Of course. The same as on a bike with a rider? of course not, but still quite valid.

As for wheel weight, the first demo I made had a 24" wheel with no tire or tube. Very UNREALISTIC. Much lighter, and way less rotational inertia. Just as dramatic. So much so that people would literally JUMP when you hit the brakes and the wheel slammed upward to full compression.

It actually will do this without a rim at all, just a hub, but then THAT's not very realistic.....oops, sarcasm again

Obviously less weight equal less force, but also less unsprung weight resisting that force. Very dramatic in all of the above cases.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Crash_Burn said:


> Firstly, how about not riding the brakes through this section you are describing, flying over the bumps and letting the shock do the work.


Always my favorite argument, and Wheelieman's comment was one of the best responses I've heard....

Originally posted by *Wheelieman*

"That's the most absurd thing I have ever heard. When riding we do not always get to brake in the most optimal places. Plus, if brake jack is such a beneficial thing, then why wouldn't I want to "ride my brakes through this section." The whole point of "neutral braking" is that you can "let the shock do the work" at all times. Squatting geometry does not "let the shock do the work" at all times."

end of quote

But let me add a little. Do you think it is a coincidence that braking bumps occur where people need to brake? So it sounds like you're recommending that people just don't use the brakes where they need to use the brakes, and all the braking problems are gone.

So if you don't hit any bumps you don't need any suspension either.

And what about the nasty, near vertical chute, with rocks and ridges, where if you don't use the brakes, your bike accelerates to terminal velocity and you hit the tree and die? Just don't hit the tree?


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Crash_Burn said:


> Secondly as soon as the rear brake is released on the "back side of the bump" as you put it the rear wheel will be wanting to extend, is this a bad thing? Rather than the rider traveling further towards the ground then putting demand on the rebound circuit to stay in control as the rear wheel extends?
> 
> Does D.O.P.E make the rider change the rebound circuit to a higher or lower speed?


I think you're a little confused on this point. On the back side of the bump, the wheel is still in a compressed position, unable to extend and follow the terrain. This means A) your brakes aren't slowing you down when the wheel is off the ground. B) You can't turn when your wheels are off the ground and C) the wheel hits the next bump with a higher spring force, impeding it's ability to absorb that bump, usually causing the back end to bounce up higher.

Having the wheel free to extend with a floating brake makes all of those situations better.

I'm also not sure about your rebound questions, but I'll make an attempt. Firstly I don't understand why you would NOT want to "put demand on the rebound circuit". That's what it's there for. So you're recommending using brake force to inhibit suspension movement so the suspesnion doesn't have to do it's job?

In reality, you can usually run a little more rebound damping with a floating brake, since the wheel doesn't have to fight the brake force while extending. The extra rebound damping can then keep the rear under control on things like water bars and jump lips, where it might have a tendency to kick the rear up and cause an otb.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Crash_Burn said:


> Have you ever thought about as the rear wheel travels into the mid stroke of the spring that the rider may gain more control. That brake squat takes away the small bump sensitivity and moves the rider to the better part of the spring travel? and that removing brake force removes a feedback loop to the rider?


this one gets me. It reminds me of the early days of full suspension bikes, when some riders would claim that with suspension, they couldn't feel the bumps, and they needed that trail feedback....

Why on earth would you want less small bump sensitivity? You need to feel the small bumps for trail feedback? Do you really believe that?

Why not just crank up your compression damping, put a mega stiff spring with lots of preload, crank up your propedal or stable platform and go? Or ride a hardtail.

A better part of the spring travel? What does that mean? More compression =more stiffness=less ability to absorb a bump without upsetting the rider or losing traction. And that's better?


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Crash_Burn said:


> Brake force as you describe can actually help exit a high speed corner, slightly applying the rear brake along with body english can help counter steer the bike and create a quick weight shift to bring the bike upright and ready for the next move.
> 
> - I think the quality of the rear spring matters more to the riders ability to stay in contact with the ground then removing brake forces for a majority of riding conditions.


The ability to change your line and steer the bike is not diminished with a floating brake. In fact it's better. Why? because the back wheel is on the ground more.

When the Giant team tested the floater a big bear in '03, one of the best comments was how much easier it was to control the bike in bumpy corners with the rear brake. Without the floater they couldn't even use the brake there, as the back end would shoot out from under them as soon as they touched the brake. With the floater, they had very fine control and modulation, to modify the bikes behaviour in subtle ways that were not possible without the floater.

As for your comment on the quality of the rear spring: We spend all this time, effort and money dialing in springs and damping to our weight and riding conditions, trying to come up with the perfect suspension. When you throw in brake force, all of those parameters are severly compromised, and your "quality" rear suspension doesn't work so well anymore.

That's the idea here. Keep your suspension from working as well as possible at all times.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

WheelieMan said:


> Plus, if brake jack is such a beneficial thing, then why wouldn't I want to "ride my brakes through this section."


I need to add that comment to my signature. It's perfect.

Anti-floater guy: just don't use your brakes thru braking bumps. But brake jack thru bumps is good.

hmm, makes sense to me.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Ridge Rider said:


> The tire contact patch force causes a compressive action on the rear suspension of a bike with a floater. This force is not removed from the rear suspension by the floater. With typical geometries and a parallel set-up the net effect of the contact patch force and the action of the caliper force through the floater rod and the reaction at the axle from the caliper force and the contact patch force is approximately neutral which results in a net pitching forward of the bike on decelleration and an increase in bump absorption ability of the suspension.


This is a very confusing paragraph, but yes, the floater DOES remove the compressive force. This is easy to demonstrate with our demo unit. Simply push back on the bottom of the tire. With the non-floating brake actuated, pushing backward causes the tire to move upward, compressing the suspesnsion. Do the same thing with the floating brake actuated, and the suspension does not move. Yet it moves very easily when you push upward.

Unfortunately that's one part of the demo that kona forgot to video.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

klunky said:


> Clearly the Demo on that Kona that "shock" made is a lot of utter crap.
> What he should have done is have a rider on a FULLY FUNCTIONING bike encased in some sort glass box for everyone to see. The bike could then have been ridden on a moving conveyer belt with actual rocks glued onto it to demonstrate the 2 two braking scenarios (floater and non floater)
> 
> I dunno I guess the the guys at brake therapy are just lazy......
> ...


Actually part of my evil plan was to HAVE THAT (minus the glass box). Now it's gonna look like your idea. Like I'll ever get the time with my lazy a$$.

But what we ARE building is a bike with both a floater and non floater, so you can ride it and hit either brake. Very REALISTIC and DRAMATIC. But I'm sure someone will claim it's bogus.....

Thanks for the comments on customer service. We do try, and we like happy customers.

I also know we drop the ball once in awhile, and I hope as the company grows we can continue to get comments like yours.

Ok now it's time for a nap. See, I am lazy.


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## Radical_53 (Nov 22, 2006)

shock said:


> Well, glad it's fixed, whatever it was....
> 
> I'm not exactly sure what you're asking about the video. If you're talking about the fixed (non-floating) caliper, it doesn't matter where it's located. The reaction force of the caliper/pads grabbing the disc is the same, no matter where the caliper is mounted.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm just curious about this thing. So I tried the test you used on your demo on my own bike, a G-Spot which has the main pivot around the bb. I removed the spring from the shock, set PPD to minimum and accelerated the back wheel. Guess what? It didn't move at all when I hit the brakes. 
Can I now conclude that I don't need a floating brake on this particular frame, or just that the demo doesn't work on this setup as it's just a demo and not the "real thing"?


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## Huck Banzai (May 8, 2005)

Radical_53 said:


> Well, I'm just curious about this thing. So I tried the test you used on your demo on my own bike, a G-Spot which has the main pivot around the bb. I removed the spring from the shock, set PPD to minimum and accelerated the back wheel. Guess what? It didn't move at all when I hit the brakes.
> Can I now conclude that I don't need a floating brake on this particular frame, or just that the demo doesn't work on this setup as it's just a demo and not the "real thing"?


If it didnt move, your pivot is seized.
:madman: :madman: :madman::madman::madman::madman::madman::madman::madman::madman::madman::madman::madman::madman:


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## Radical_53 (Nov 22, 2006)

For sure... oh that's why I never felt a difference between ProPedal on and off? :eekster: :madman: 

:nono: Pivots are not seized of course... maybe I use a too light rear wheel?


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Radical_53 said:


> Well, I'm just curious about this thing. So I tried the test you used on your demo on my own bike, a G-Spot which has the main pivot around the bb. I removed the spring from the shock, set PPD to minimum and accelerated the back wheel. Guess what? It didn't move at all when I hit the brakes.
> Can I now conclude that I don't need a floating brake on this particular frame, or just that the demo doesn't work on this setup as it's just a demo and not the "real thing"?


We used dummy shocks for the demos. Your shock still has gas pressure as well as compression damping and seal stiction. You might take the shock off and try it, but you might have dangling suspension bits banging around.

Again, the demo was built to illustrate the concept, and show the forces that are occuring.


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## Radical_53 (Nov 22, 2006)

Oh ok, that explains something  I just thought that as heavy as that impact was on the video, it should be able to move the working shock without any problem. I'll try it without the shock


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## Crash_Burn (Oct 8, 2004)

*Brian, Thanks for all your replies!*



shock said:


> In reality, you can usually run a little more rebound damping with a floating brake, since the wheel doesn't have to fight the brake force while extending. The extra rebound damping can then keep the rear under control on things like water bars and jump lips, where it might have a tendency to kick the rear up and cause an otb.


Thanks for the rebound info!

You said "a wheel doesn't have to fight the brake force while extending" - For the record I submit that the shock (not the wheel) has to "fight" the weight of the wheel (unsprung weight) and force of an impact with or without a floater.

Weight is the black art of the bicycle - spinning weight at the wheel equals stability, how much stability a rider wants' is very much a riding style thing. ie how much effort (body english) a rider wants' to input to control the bike.

I believe your product can give a rider an advantage, but trying to shoot down everything I put forth has made you overlook some valid points. I thank you for the time and effort you put into your responses, but I wonder if you responded only to pimp your product rather than have an open and frank discussion about riding style and who and what terrain a floater gives the most advantage in.



shock said:


> I think you're a little confused on this point. On the back side of the bump, the wheel is still in a compressed position, unable to extend and follow the terrain.


Actually I'm not confused - On the backside of the bump the rebound circuit is trying to control the extension of the shock (which I'm sure your completely aware of), if the shock is unable to extend and follow the terrain as you describe it could be that the rebound is set to slow or the rider is traveling to fast for it's rebound setting.



shock said:


> So you're recommending using brake force to inhibit suspension movement so the suspesnion doesn't have to do it's job?


I'm saying that brake force is being used right now by riders in some slow to mid speed situations to a riders advantage, and in high speed situations you may want to be off the brakes in general.

I guess I tend to be a rider that hunts for deceleration points (sections of trail I apply the brakes in), cleary not ideal but something I do. Again this could be a learned response from the evolution of suspension designs, but it is valid and practiced (riders have adapted to brake forces).

A riders ability to work with what he or she brings to the ride (experience and ability) is a very important factor and is very difficult to quantify.

Again I'm not a floater hater - I think having a fully active rear has it's merits, and a floater is an relatively easy add on for a suspension without a pivot below the axel.

I just wish I had a full understanding it's advantages in a DH situation, and since you are evangelizing a ride it and understand it motto, I'll have to wait and see as your product becomes more main stream, D.O.P.E hasn't hit my town yet.

P.S. On a side note I don't know if you caught the SF Supercross this weekend, it was a great display of how loading suspension with the weight of your body and rebound speed are factors in riding style. Stewart and Carmichael appear to attack certain parts of the course to pass riders. Stewart appears to favor tail whips and woops for passing, Carmichael appears to favor entry and exit of corners for passing. Any insight on Supercross suspension set-up to share?


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## Huck Banzai (May 8, 2005)

Said it befor - this is not someone who just happened across a neat idea, this is a professional with a lot of experience, and success to cement that experience. Why dont you look into the gentlemans credentials? He HAS researched this through a career in suspension over decades in winning applications, not just as an aside for a distraction in an internet forum.


HOLY STRING OF EXPLETIVES!


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## Radical_53 (Nov 22, 2006)

@shock: Well, I tried it without the... shock  Now it hops as in your video.


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## Z-Blocker (Nov 11, 2004)

*weight*

Sorry to open an old topic again.
Can anybody tell me what the weight is +/- of the whole system?

Z.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

I'd imagine it would depend on frame, rotor size, brake model & hub.

Probably check with shock ([email protected] Therapy) for a real answer.


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## coghi (Jan 5, 2007)

brian i want to fit my bike with one floating-brake, its a marin wildcat trail, with dmr revolver hub, and 8 inch rotosrs, can be done???


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## ammarhio (Jul 26, 2006)

can someone please explain wat a floating brake is and what it does? Thnks


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## coghi (Jan 5, 2007)

also, its a qr version, not the trhu axles one.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Suggest contacting Brian through email directly. He doesn't monitor the board all the time.


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## dropmachine.com (Apr 8, 2004)

Go read the thread.


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## supercub (May 5, 2008)

can someone tell me why this thing is worth more than my bullit frame,

Anyone have a used one they'd sell?


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## hab1b (Jan 15, 2007)

the eliminate brake jack. however if you have a bike that takes that into account. IE not a single pivot bike you dont need it.


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## supercub (May 5, 2008)

Actually know what it does just cant see how they can charge 300.00 dollars for a couple fittings a cnc'd block of aluminium and some bolts.



supercub said:


> can someone tell me why this thing is worth more than my bullit frame,
> 
> Anyone have a used one they'd sell?


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

supercub said:


> Actually know what it does just cant see how they can charge 300.00 dollars for a couple fittings a cnc'd block of aluminium and some bolts.


Why do people pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a CD of software when the CD is worth less than a dollar?


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## Radical_53 (Nov 22, 2006)

The good thing is that you can't download parts and hardware, at least for now...


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## Crash_Burn (Oct 8, 2004)

*Comon your a moderator?*



CraigH said:


> Why do people pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a CD of software when the CD is worth less than a dollar?


If it's such a good product economy of scale will send the price plummeting.

The owner of the intellectual property wants' to sell out, Duh

Kona will give you a frame for a couple hundy more for this widget.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

supercub said:


> Actually know what it does just cant see how they can charge 300.00 dollars for a couple fittings a cnc'd block of aluminium and some bolts.


Bottom line on the price? It should be higher. I haven't raised prices on floaters since I started selling them in '99. Now that's just stupid.

why $300? It lets us make them, sell them, pay expenses, and go into debt slowly. If we sold them for less, we would go into debt more quickly, and therefore less people would be able to enjoy floating brakes as we went out of business.

Each bike, hub and brake combo takes a different assembly of parts. Small, limited production, cnc parts. In the US.


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

From this thread I learned that :

A) Floating brake system's are good
B) The dude running Shock Therapy is legit
C) There are a few poop heads on this forum


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## [email protected] (Jan 11, 2009)

is there brake jack on the ironhorse yakuza kumicho


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Yes



[email protected] said:


> is there brake jack on the ironhorse yakuza kumicho


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## the_Alaskan (Nov 4, 2009)

I know this thread is rather dead, but would a BT floater work on a Diamondback mission 2? diamondback isn't listed on their site. but has anyone seen/used one on a mission?


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

Email Shock Therapy I'm sure they'll set you up.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

the_Alaskan said:


> I know this thread is rather dead, but would a BT floater work on a Diamondback mission 2? diamondback isn't listed on their site. but has anyone seen/used one on a mission?


Each frame, hub & brake requires a slightly different kit. As others have suggested, contact Brian at BT and see if they can do up a kit for your combo.


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## cantin03 (Jan 22, 2004)

Anyone had tried a floating brake with an Intense M3? How does it feel? Do I need it? Could you post pictures?
Thanks.


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