# Plastic hydration pack alternatives



## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

Just wondering if there are any systems out there that do not use a plastic pouch, which likely leech chemicals into the water. I haven't found a camelback type system that did not make the water taste like plastic in high heat environments, and even if it doesn't have a foul taste, leeching is likely still occurring.

I currently carry a stainless bottle (Klean Kanteen) in place of the bladder inside the backpack, but obviously not nearly as convenient. I will gladly trade convenience for purity if there are no better options though. Of course there's not much that can be done to avoid having a plastic tube, at least I don't believe there is, but that can be cleared between uses to minimize contact.


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

I did find this which is something I had thought about looking into doing, might be a good solution if no commercially available one exists: http://www.examiner.com/x-8158-Open...sing-a-stainless-steel-bottle-for-Burning-Man


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

Leach.


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks for the correction :thumbsup:


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## Birdman (Dec 31, 2003)

salimoneus said:


> I did find this which is something I had thought about looking into doing, might be a good solution if no commercially available one exists: http://www.examiner.com/x-8158-Open...sing-a-stainless-steel-bottle-for-Burning-Man


Ummm... the drinking tube is plastic.

FWIW, I think the current CamelBak bladders are made exactly like the IV bags used in hospitals, which are extremely tightly controlled for chemical leaching (for obvious reasons).

However, I'd recommend a hand-blown glass bottle with natural (free-range organic) latex tubing.

JMJ


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

Yea I mentioned the drinking tube, but it can be cleared between uses so I think it's not much of a concern. I'm more concerned about the container.

IV bags might be tightly controlled, but it's still plastic and I can taste the difference. I'm surely tasting something if not the water.


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## bloodyknee (Jul 29, 2008)

Try a sheep's stomach. It's non plastic and 100% natural.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

I have a Camel-Bac and never taste anything but the water. Maybe your water has chemicals in it?


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

pursuiter said:


> I have a Camel-Bac and never taste anything but the water. Maybe your water has chemicals in it?


I doubt it, I buy RO-system filtered water from a reputable source, tested every few months with an.avg. tds of 4.2ppm. Maybe some people are just more sensitive to picking out flavors than others?


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

It's a given that some people are more sensitive to picking out flavors than others. I have a friend who says he can taste the salt in softened water. I'm not too worried about the plastic in my camelbac, but I don't leave any water in it after I ride. Some plastics are more prone for chemical leaching out, but I don't know enough about it to offer any advice. If you're that concerned about it, I would keep doing what you have been. It may not be the most convenient method but you'll have your piece of mind that your water is safe.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

salimoneus said:


> I doubt it...Maybe some people are just more sensitive to picking out flavors than others?


I am very sensitive to soaps and organic solvents, if my CB bladder was bleeding flavor I am sure I'd detect it.


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

Birdman said:


> However, I'd recommend a hand-blown glass bottle with natural (free-range organic) latex tubing.
> JMJ


Dang, all I could find is cage-free organic latex, think that would still be good?


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## Brandon_oma#692 (Mar 3, 2010)

my tap water after it has been in my camelbackfor a few days  sorry no real help here


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

The pollution in the air we breath on the way to the trail is likely more polluted than the leached chemicals in a camelback bladder.
I don't worry about it. Generally I've found the "weird taste" of a new camelback goes away after a few uses.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

salimoneus said:


> Just wondering if there are any systems out there that do not use a plastic pouch, which likely leech chemicals into the water. I haven't found a camelback type system that did not make the water taste like plastic in high heat environments, and even if it doesn't have a foul taste, leeching is likely still occurring.
> 
> I currently carry a stainless bottle (Klean Kanteen) in place of the bladder inside the backpack, but obviously not nearly as convenient. I will gladly trade convenience for purity if there are no better options though. Of course there's not much that can be done to avoid having a plastic tube, at least I don't believe there is, but that can be cleared between uses to minimize contact.


I have never had a plastic taste issue with Platypus bladders.


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

Shark said:


> The pollution in the air we breath on the way to the trail is likely more polluted than the leached chemicals in a camelback bladder.


While I agree that's likely the case, the difference is that one person can't do a whole lot about the air around them, but they can surely control everything else that goes into their body. I would rather make an effort to eliminate other sources of contaminants when practical, instead of just contributing more. There are definitely cumulative and combinatory effects with many substances in our environment.


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## Birdman (Dec 31, 2003)

salimoneus said:


> Dang, all I could find is cage-free organic latex, think that would still be good?


Buy a rubber tree. Fertilize it with your own feces and use your filtered water. Say nice things to the tree every day. Then hack into the bark and drain off the latex sap and make your own latex tubing (but pray that plants don't have feelings).

Seriously, try rinsing your Camelbak with mouthwash, then try some known taste-free water. Never leave water in your Camelbak. If you're still tasting "chemicals", try a Platypus bladder.

I've been using Camelbaks for about 15 years and even the new bladders have not tasted weird, and I consider myself to have a very sensitive palate.

Good luck - JMJ


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

I bet your "Klean Kanteen" is lined with plastic.


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

Jim311 said:


> I bet your "Klean Kanteen" is lined with plastic.


A 30 second check would have confirmed that it's not lined with plastic.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

womble said:


> A 30 second check would have confirmed that it's not lined with plastic.


What's it lined with then, Mr. Google?

I guess it was the SIGG bottles I was thinking of that had the plastic liner. Everyone thought that it was plain steel with no liner, but in fact they were lined with plastic that leached BPA into your water, and most people had no idea. On an unlined bottle it tastes like metal to me if left in there for a while. So which is worse, a metal taste, or a plastic taste? I guess that's subjective.


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## wankel (Mar 7, 2004)

shiggy said:


> I have never had a plastic taste issue with Platypus bladders.


I'll second the Platypus recommendation. No plastic taste.


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

Jim311 said:


> What's it lined with then, Mr. Google?
> 
> I guess it was the SIGG bottles I was thinking of that had the plastic liner. Everyone thought that it was plain steel with no liner, but in fact they were lined with plastic that leached BPA into your water, and most people had no idea. On an unlined bottle it tastes like metal to me if left in there for a while. So which is worse, a metal taste, or a plastic taste? I guess that's subjective.


You are confusing bottles and materials.

Klean Kanteens are nonreactive stainless steel bottles. So why do they need liners?

Siggs are, as everybody knows, aluminium, hence the liner.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Why do aluminum bottles need a liner, but not steel?


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

Jim311 said:


> What's it lined with then, Mr. Google?
> 
> I guess it was the SIGG bottles I was thinking of that had the plastic liner. Everyone thought that it was plain steel with no liner, but in fact they were lined with plastic that leached BPA into your water, and most people had no idea. On an unlined bottle it tastes like metal to me if left in there for a while. So which is worse, a metal taste, or a plastic taste? I guess that's subjective.





Jim311 said:


> Why do aluminum bottles need a liner, but not steel?


Yea I think it was SIGG aluminum bottles that use some sort of a proprietary inside coating, that they never disclosed the details for. I never bought one just because they blatantly withheld that information, and in general I try to avoid aluminum due to it's toxicity. That is the reason they require a liner to begin with, and is why I also avoid aluminum cookware. It just doesn't make any sense when stainless is available, relatively inexpensive, and is much more inert.

As far as steel vs plastic, I think about it this way. Steel has more natural elements as it's components, I am more comfortable with trace amounts of chromium or nickel than whatever the hell test tube chemicals you will find in plastic. Just look in a multivitamin and I'd be willing to bet you will find a lot more elements from the steel in the vitamin than the plastic.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

The easiest thing would be to carry multiple bottles and forget the bladder. You can put one or two on your frame and more in your pack if needed. The only disadvantage is you can't easily drink without stopping for a sec. Personally, I rarely use a bladder. Then again, I don't race nor do I usually ride with others that I'm trying to keep up with.


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

bloodyknee said:


> Try a sheep's stomach. It's non plastic and 100% natural.


+1

or the membrane from the intestines of a cow's second stomach. Either one works.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Gasp4Air said:


> The easiest thing would be to carry multiple bottles and forget the bladder. You can put one or two on your frame ....


Irony of this suggestion is that it's the most likey way to get sick from a water container. There was a race in Scotland where a bunch of riders with H2O bottles got sick from sheep poop splashing into the bottle. Here in the US I see dog poop all the time on trails...cow poop in the rural areas.


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## billee (Jul 31, 2004)

I drink fresh mother's milk from my female servant who jogs behind me on the trail.


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

Jim311 said:


> Why do aluminum bottles need a liner, but not steel?


Exactly how big a spoon do you want to be fed with?


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## ajd245246 (Sep 1, 2008)

billee said:


> I drink fresh mother's milk from my female servant who jogs behind me on the trail.


 +1

i second that


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## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

The over concern about leaching of chemicals from a bladder that water sits in for a few hours is laughable.

The water you drink came from a source in the ground, be it a stream, lake, or underground reservoir. How exactly did you think the water got there? It is a combination of rain and animal piss.

Next your precious water was piped to the treatment plant in pipes that are either copper, cast iron, or plastic.

Chemicals are added, including chlorine. Things that are not added but are regularly present are not so fun.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/index.html

Next it is shipped again. Some is bottled (gasp, plastic bottles). Most is piped, again in copper, cast iron, galvanized iron, and/or plastic.

When it reaches your house, depending on the age of the pipes, one or all of the above is used.

The time it takes to reach your house from the distribution points may be only a few days or may be weeks. Plenty of time for all sorts of leaching to take place.

Did you ever think about the faucet the water comes out of? Lots of fixtures that are older than 13 years have varying levels of lead in them. MMM, lead, it's not just for breakfast anymore.

http://www.mwra.com/04water/html/Lead_Faucets.htm

So why, again, are you concerned about a 3 hour stint in a proven safe bladder?

Trolling, are we?:nono:


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

shiggy said:


> I have never had a plastic taste issue with Platypus bladders.


tastes like pus


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

CharacterZero said:


> +1
> 
> or the membrane from the intestines of a cow's second stomach. Either one works.


In all seriousness, the only flexible container for water that I know of that is not petroleum based is going to be a 'water skin'. It was all that was used for millennia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterskin










I'm relatively certain you could find one online and make it work.


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## GEARHEAD_ENG (Jul 22, 2009)

bankerboy said:


> The over concern about leaching of chemicals from a bladder that water sits in for a few hours is laughable.
> .............
> So why, again, are you concerned about a 3 hour stint in a proven safe bladder?
> 
> Trolling, are we?:nono:


He mentioned earlier the he buys his filtered drinking water from "reputable source" that's been filtered through a reverse osmosis system. I don't think he is trolling, some people are paranoid about things they put in their bodies. Look at all the organic foods and bottled water in the grocery stores these days.. I try not to worry about it though because you'll go crazy trying to avoid all the chemicals and pollutants we produce every day.



salimoneus said:


> I doubt it, I buy RO-system filtered water from a reputable source, tested every few months with an.avg. tds of 4.2ppm. Maybe some people are just more sensitive to picking out flavors than others?


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

bankerboy said:


> The over concern about leaching of chemicals from a bladder that water sits in for a few hours is laughable.
> 
> ...
> 
> Trolling, are we?:nono:


Your post was extremely detailed and thorough, but fortunately for me I don't drink tap water, nor would I recommend it to anyone else. I just choose not to ingest toxins like chlorine, fluoride (wait, for your teeth? then why digest it?! that makes absolutely no sense), just because some agency tells me it's safe. And who knows what else gets in there along the way...I've seen findings that even show trace amounts of prescription drugs in our water supplies, etc. No thanks.

If all that stuff sounds appealing to you though, by all means help yourself. But I don't think it's paranoia, to me it's common sense. Why mess with all those chemicals when it's really not necessary? I don't need them, and they didn't need them for centuries and centuries of man's existence, and we have survived to this point just fine. Well mostly just fine, except we're in worse shape health-wise than any time in recorded history. Just look at some statistics of modern diseases, even over the last 50 years or so, it's quite startling

If I can do some really simple things, like avoiding plastic, using stainless whenever possible, drink filtered or spring water, more natural products, I don't feel like I'm really going out of my way. I just make different choices than you do. To each his own.


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

salimoneus said:


> Your post was extremely detailed and thorough, but fortunately for me I don't drink tap water, nor would I recommend it to anyone else. I just choose not to ingest toxins like chlorine, fluoride (wait, for your teeth? then why digest it?! that makes absolutely no sense), just because some agency tells me it's safe. And who knows what else gets in there along the way...I've seen findings that show trace amounts of prescription drugs, etc. No thanks.
> 
> If all that stuff sounds appealing to you though, by all means help yourself. But I don't think it's paranoia, to me it's common sense. Why mess with all those chemicals when it's really not necessary? I don't need them, and they didn't need them for centuries and centuries of man's existence, and we have survived to this point just fine. Well mostly just fine, except we're in worse shape health-wise than any time in recorded history. Just look at some statistics of modern diseases, even over the last 50 years or so, it's quite startling.


What you say is true - heavy metals that we dump (er, add cautiously) into the water supply are known to cause hardening of the arteries - but there are just too many variables to break down what their contribution is in the big picture.

Don't let the flamers get to you, I don't drink the **** either.

And yes, Flouride is good for your teeth ONLY when it is in your mouth, not after you ingest it.


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

*Here's a GREAT reason to not use a Camleback at all(stick to BPA Free bottles)*


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

salimoneus said:


> Your post was extremely detailed and thorough, but fortunately for me I don't drink tap water, nor would I recommend it to anyone else. I just choose not to ingest toxins like chlorine, fluoride (wait, for your teeth? then why digest it?! that makes absolutely no sense), just because some agency tells me it's safe. And who knows what else gets in there along the way...I've seen findings that even show trace amounts of prescription drugs in our water supplies, etc. No thanks.
> 
> If all that stuff sounds appealing to you though, by all means help yourself. But I don't think it's paranoia, to me it's common sense. Why mess with all those chemicals when it's really not necessary? I don't need them, and they didn't need them for centuries and centuries of man's existence, and we have survived to this point just fine. Well mostly just fine, except we're in worse shape health-wise than any time in recorded history. Just look at some statistics of modern diseases, even over the last 50 years or so, it's quite startling
> 
> If I can do some really simple things, like avoiding plastic, using stainless whenever possible, drink filtered or spring water, more natural products, I don't feel like I'm really going out of my way. I just make different choices than you do. To each his own.


You don't drink tap water? Where do you get your water from, a well? If you get it from a well, it's probably not tested regularly like a municipal water supply would be. Wells are not necessarily safer, although IMO they definitely taste better.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

womble said:


> Exactly how big a spoon do you want to be fed with?


Are you a dick in person or just on the internet?


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

Jim311 said:


> Are you a dick in person or just on the internet?


I don't suffer fools glady in person, either.

Are you seriously saying that you can't figure out why food grade stainless steel doesn't require a liner? Let me drop you a hint... it's in the phrase "food grade".


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

There's no food grade aluminum?


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

Aluminum leaches, it's too soft.

From wikipedia:

Health concerns

Despite its natural abundance, aluminium has no known function in living cells and presents some toxic effects in elevated concentrations. Its toxicity can be traced to deposition in bone and the central nervous system, which is particularly increased in patients with reduced renal function. Because aluminium competes with calcium for absorption, increased amounts of dietary aluminium may contribute to the reduced skeletal mineralization (osteopenia) observed in preterm infants and infants with growth retardation. In very high doses, aluminium can cause neurotoxicity, and is associated with altered function of the blood-brain barrier.[58] A small percentage of people are allergic to aluminium and experience contact dermatitis, digestive disorders, vomiting or other symptoms upon contact or ingestion of products containing aluminium, such as deodorants or antacids. In those without allergies, aluminium is not as toxic as heavy metals, but there is evidence of some toxicity if it is consumed in excessive amounts.[59] Although the use of aluminium cookware has not been shown to lead to aluminium toxicity in general, excessive consumption of antacids containing aluminium compounds and excessive use of aluminium-containing antiperspirants provide more significant exposure levels. Studies have shown that consumption of acidic foods or liquids with aluminium significantly increases aluminium absorption,[60] and maltol has been shown to increase the accumulation of aluminium in nervous and osseus tissue.[61] Furthermore, aluminium increases estrogen-related gene expression in human breast cancer cells cultured in the laboratory.[62] These salts' estrogen-like effects have led to their classification as a metalloestrogen.

Because of its potentially toxic effects, aluminium's use in some antiperspirants, dyes (such as aluminium lake), and food additives is controversial. Although there is little evidence that normal exposure to aluminium presents a risk to healthy adults,[63] several studies point to risks associated with increased exposure to the metal.[64] Aluminium in food may be absorbed more than aluminium from water.[65] Some researchers have expressed concerns that the aluminium in antiperspirants may increase the risk of breast cancer,[66] and aluminium has controversially been implicated as a factor in Alzheimer's disease.[67] The Camelford water pollution incident involved a number of people consuming aluminium sulphate. Investigations of the long-term health effects are still ongoing, but elevated brain aluminium concentrations have been found in post-mortem examinations of victims who have later died, and further research to determine if there is a link with cerebral amyloid angiopathy has been commissioned.[68]

According to The Alzheimer's Society, the overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that studies have not convincingly demonstrated a causal relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease.[69] Nevertheless, some studies, such as those on the PAQUID cohort,[70] cite aluminium exposure as a risk factor for Alzheimer's disease. Some brain plaques have been found to contain increased levels of the metal.[71] Research in this area has been inconclusive; aluminium accumulation may be a consequence of the disease rather than a causal agent. In any event, if there is any toxicity of aluminium, it must be via a very specific mechanism, since total human exposure to the element in the form of naturally occurring clay in soil and dust is enormously large over a lifetime.[72][73] Scientific consensus does not yet exist about whether aluminium exposure could directly increase the risk of Alzheimer's disease.[69]


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Interesting link to alzheimers, I thought that had been disproven in recent studies. Have they stopped making aluminum cookware? It seems that stuff used to be pretty widespread in it's use.


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

Although there are no definitive answers to whether or not Aluminum can be linked to Alzheimer's, it is surely toxic and the element has absolutely no usefulness in the human body. There is no such thing as an aluminum supplement. I would recommend antiperspirant products without aluminum for this reason, and in fact I don't even believe in antiperspirants to begin with due to them preventing the body from performing a perfectly natural and critical function like sweating. I prefer the salt crystal along with JASON or Tom's natural deodorant, works like a charm at keeping the odor causing bacteria away.

Aluminum is still popular with cookware due to it's heat absorbing properties, and unless it's treated in some other way most aluminum cookware has a nonstick coating that also serves as a protective barrier from leaching. As we all know those coatings have a very short lifespan, and start disintegrating quite rapidly, so you're most likely also ingesting bits of the nonstick coating along with trace amounts of the exposed aluminum.


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## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

As a health conscious Chemical Engineer, I understand your desire to limit the amount of random chemicals you ingest. However, leaching in general takes some time. If you fill up a bladder and then go on a ride, leaching over those few hours will be minimal. If a majority of your water consumption is from steel, glass, etc. then I have a hard time imagining that a liter here and there that has sat in a plastic bladder for one hour would even have a traceable amount of any leaching chemical.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Jim311 said:


> There's no food grade aluminum?


Sure. Its amazing how womble can act so smart and like you are so dumb, yet he said nothing of value. 
Neither stainless or aluminum would need a liner to hold water. Depending on your level of paranoia, you might fear aluminum atoms entering your body, but there is no evidence that an aluminum container is a dangerous water container. Even in cookware where you heat the metal and boil water, there is no evidence that it causes a problem. 
There are water bottles made from un-lined aluminum, especially the military style canteens.


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

Dogbrain said:


> As a health conscious Chemical Engineer, I understand your desire to limit the amount of random chemicals you ingest. However, leaching in general takes some time. If you fill up a bladder and then go on a ride, leaching over those few hours will be minimal. If a majority of your water consumption is from steel, glass, etc. then I have a hard time imagining that a liter here and there that has sat in a plastic bladder for one hour would even have a traceable amount of any leaching chemical.


The conditions you describe sound like fairly optimal ones, where the liquid is only going to be sitting in the bladder for a very short period of time. But on several occasions I've filled up bottles early in the morning, for a ride that I may be taking later in the day. I could be driving to the destination in fairly hot temperatures inside a vehicle, or maybe they will even sit overnight or for several days. Just look at the difference in melting points between plastic and stainless, I think it's pretty clear which one is going to start losing integrity sooner.


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## NoVA_JB (May 8, 2007)

Have you looked at anything like this? http://www.rei.com/product/782320
You could replace the plastic bottles with metal.


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## Birdman (Dec 31, 2003)

salimoneus said:


> The conditions you describe sound like fairly optimal ones, where the liquid is only going to be sitting in the bladder for a very short period of time. But on several occasions I've filled up bottles early in the morning, for a ride that I may be taking later in the day. I could be driving to the destination in fairly hot temperatures inside a vehicle, or maybe they will even sit overnight or for several days. Just look at the difference in melting points between plastic and stainless, I think it's pretty clear which one is going to start losing integrity sooner.


Keep your water in a stainless steel container. At the trailhead, pour it into your Camelbak. As soon as you get back to the car, empty your Camelbak and clean it thoroughly.

All the benefits of a Camelbak without the long term exposure, and only minor inconvenience.

Or got buy some titanium bottles and hit up a medical supply store for latex tubing.


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## brassnipples (Feb 26, 2006)

Now if they would only make a version of this to hold bladders.


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## jcufari (Jun 20, 2008)

thats funny brass


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## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

brassnipples said:


> Now if they would only make a version of this to hold bladders.


That suit would be great, unfortunately it only offers Class 2 protection. With the growing threat of terrorist attacks and explosive devices, it's really recommended to go with a Class 1 model for a modern cycling applications.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

brassnipples said:


> Now if they would only make a version of this to hold bladders.


but it's listed as 'rear-entry' - I'm allergic to that.


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