# Preserving Moore.



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

There's this trail in our backyard. Pretty technical, in an old-school, slow-speed, rock crawling sort of way. It is one of our favorite trails because it requires a delicate blend of skill, finesse, and horsepower to ride well.



The trail is called Moore Fun. I helped a tiny bit with walking the ridge, laying out the route, and building this trail way back in the late '90's. Not positive which year exactly, other than it was a long time ago.



In the intervening years I have enjoyed riding this trail maybe a hundred times. Probably more. I've never, not once, cleaned every move, end to end, all on the same day. I know very few people who have.



But I have been able to clean every move on it. Getting to where I could say that took _years_. Delayed gratification.

It's the sort of trail where you have to be in a certain frame of mind: Patient, committed, and focused. Otherwise the wheels come off pretty quickly and you just frustrate yourself trying too hard.






We've ridden it on hardtails, full suspension, full rigid, singlespeeds, fatbikes, and plus bikes. All sizes of wheels. They all work just fine on Moore Fun.

Honestly, the bike matters little here. If you like the bike you're riding, it's good enough for this trail.



This trail has never been heavily used relative to anything else around it. Not exactly sure why that is, but I'd conjecture that most people prefer to have a little more speed and flow on their rides. My proof for that guess is that many (most?) other people I see on this trail are usually walking. And bleeding. Seriously. I've heard it referred to not as "Moore Fun" but instead as "Moore Walking". One friend simply calls it "Uncle".

It isn't for everyone.



I've gotten to ride it three times this fall, and each of those times I've noticed that Moore Fun is changing. Being dumbed down, sanitized.



Several of the marquee moves now have go-arounds, or ramps, or have been butchered such that a unique, well-designed, engaging move is now a straight line with zero challenge whatsoever.

Why? I really don't know. By whom? Don't know that either.



What I do know is that we have very, very few tech trails left. So many of the classics have been neutered, brought down to the level *of* the least common denominator. And then the tiny fraction remaining is being sanitized *by* the least common denominator. Or stravatards. Or maybe on accident.

Probably ignorance is the theme tying all of the above together: They don't realize that in cheating themselves out of becoming better riders, they're cheating _all of us_.



Clearly this is a first world problem. Not something that needs attention from lawmakers of any ilk, nor even from those that administer these trails. I'm not even certain they _ride_ bikes.



What this problem needs is for us, this community of riders, to stand up and say _enough._

*If you see someone sanitizing a move on *any* trail, educate them. Maybe they don't know any better.*



It comes to this:

Elevate yourself to the level of the trail. Don't bring the trail down to your level. Can't ride it? No biggie -- walk it this time. Next time, give a few of the moves a try. The time after that, try 'em twice. Eventually, you might put it together and experience the intense satisfaction of delayed gratification. It is addicting, in ways that the instant kind can't be.

Moore Fun is literally one of the last places that that experience can be had, locally.






Tech trails are vanishing fast. Please share this around while we still have a few worth saving.

Thanks,

Mike Curiak
Grand Junction, Colorado​


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## C.A.S.H. (Jun 23, 2010)

That looks like a totally fun trail that would completely kick my ass. I will have to check it out the next time I'm visiting my brother out there.

I get what you're saying. We don't have a lot of techy trails like that in my neck of the woods, but what we do have I have noticed a lot of mods made to them over the past few years. 

I'm just a mediocre rider and if I can't handle a feature or line I will just walk around it. No biggie.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Well Mike, this time, I absolutely am 100% with you, it happens the world over, people don't want to take the time to learn the skills, get the fitness, whatever to ride these sorts of trails_ (sounds like my ideal trail)_ and so they push down/out a rock here, pile a few rocks here, eventually I think trying to build a highway. I have and fight this so much down here, the modern flow trail mentality type riders just can't grasp the share exhilaration and pleasure one gets when finally managing to clear an obstacle or by some miracle, an entire trail of this ilk.

I think this sums it up as good as it needs, try to explain this to people all the time, seems to not register by the blank look on peoples faces. I remember my first excursion on what is now a trail I ride and clear on my rigid, but back then, I couldn't even ride 10% and the only thing I thought to myself is, "One day, I'm going to be able to ride this entire trail with no dabs" and so I started riding and practicing until I could, years later, to now having to ride my rigid to make it somewhat challenging because it has been dumbed down so much.

*



Elevate yourself to the level of the trail. Don't bring the trail down to your level. Can't ride it? *No biggie -- walk it this time. Next time, give a few of the moves a try. The time after that, try 'em twice. Eventually, you might put it together and experience the intense satisfaction of delayed gratification. It is addicting, in ways that the instant kind can't be.

Click to expand...

*


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## mtnbiker64 (Nov 17, 2004)

I'm sure where I live (northeast Pa) some people just are afraid of trying certain obstacles. But if they only knew how big a smile they will have when they clear it, I'm sure they wouldn't dumb down a trail. We see it a lot. Tight turns are made into straight aways by hacking away more brush and therefore by making a new section of trail they create a new area to erode. There is no shame in walking. You live to ride another day. Awesome looking trail by the way.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

That looks like my kind of fun! Now I have to go ride it to see if I can clean it all.

I agree, sanitation is getting ridiculous. At a time when bikes are now capable of the most amazing things, trails are getting easy enough to ride cleanly on my 1980s Schwinn Moab. 

We have one trail locally that looks similar to this one (albeit it's probably much shorter), and to my dissatisfaction -- found out the last time I rode it that one of the biggest rocks had been removed. At speed, you could launch off this rock and drop about 5 feet to a perfect natural transition. The rock had a perfect dirt ramp behind it, and was probably close to weighing 600 pounds or more. There was a clean line around it; it was not a mandatory huck.

Well, somebody(s) took it upon themselves to remove it from the trail and cast it aside. This had to have taken a great deal of effort. That one feature was something I looked forward to every time I rode that trail. Now, I don't even know if I feel like riding that trail anymore...

Complete BS.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately though, because I do, at times, clear random baby-head rocks off of trails. Obviously, some trails feature huge sections of pure baby-head/cantaloupe-sized rocks, and there's nothing to be done about that.

But on trails that are primarily smooth and/or fixed boulders/rocks, I tend to remove the odd rocks that get lodged loose for whatever reason. These rocks don't really add challenge to the trail, but they do add a lot of hazard because if you're not expecting them and roll over one incorrectly, you can take a fall at high speed (has happened to me many times). We have one trail, specifically, that's relatively new (<10 years old), and was originally designed as a flow trail, and has always been managed as such. I do a lot of work on that trail; mostly cutting fallen trees off of it, but I also remove baby-heads as they crop-up. I would never remove an imbedded rock.

What's your take on that? Is that sanitation gone too far? Should everything be left?


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

I️ have fond memories of my day there with you guys. Burned every match I️ owned and loved it. 

We have had several local incredibly challenging trails completely obliterated and re routed into swoopy, fun, but ultimately non challenging alternatives. 

I️ am double minded about it. It takes the fear and pressure off a ride and gets more people out on to those trails, and they truly are fun to ride. Some of these trails, though, were scary monsters that kept me awake with anxiety the night before if I️ knew I️ was riding it the following day as I️ knew the suffering that was coming and did not want it. But I️ sorta did want it actually. The suffering and challenge was the why of those trails. They scared me and that was the point. They were wild. The new trails are tame and friendly. 

We are extremely lucky that the Dells trails are nearly impossible to sanitize so we always have those for the tech minded. 

I️ used to get all wrapped up about sanitization, now I️ am a little less uptight about it for a couple reasons:

1. Every trail represents humans sanitizing terrain. Every single one. There is little to no raw terrain in its natural state that we ride. 

2. Trails change, sometimes significantly over time simply due to weathering and erosion. It has been fun to watch my local trails change over 15 years of riding. Some parts got easier and some parts I️ used to clean with regularity are simply impossible for anyone outside of a trials rider on a trials rig to clean. 

I️ needed to get over the mindset that the world needs to stay just the way I️ remembered it and accept and enjoy what it is now.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

The problem is all your techy bits are climbing. Nobody wants to climb any more and nobody wants to do techy climbs. They all want to just "send it" on downhills. Climbing is too much work. 


BTW that is not my view point, but the viewpoint of the masses these days. No/little appreciation for technical climbing.


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## Blueallah (Jun 16, 2005)

I remember riding (mostly pushing) that trail shortly after it was opened in 100F heat and the numerous jokes about the name. Moore Fun than what? Work, dentist appointment, etc. It wasn't for me but I didn't consider changing it. I also remember running into a guy who said he was a local trying to clean up the drop down to Horse Thief several years ago. He got rather pissy with me when I questioned him. He thought the area (Fruita in general) needed to be more family friendly and I should mind my own business. Maybe that guy is still out there working for his perspective of the greater good.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Blueallah said:


> I also remember running into a guy who said he was a local trying to clean up the drop down to Horse Thief several years ago. He got rather pissy with me when I questioned him. He thought the area (Fruita in general) needed to be more family friendly and I should mind my own business. Maybe that guy is still out there working for his perspective of the greater good.


The ironic part about this is that there are 7 (8?) other trails out there, all accessible from the same trailheads, all of which are easy, flowy, fast. Moore stands alone out there as a challenging trail. Don't like it? No problem -- just ride the others.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

cookieMonster said:


> What's your take on that? Is that sanitation gone too far? Should everything be left?


Well, first -- it's not up to me.

Second, it's a slippery slope. I toss loose rocks off the trail sometimes, for the same reason: Removing a hazard. Where it gets slippery is that people will deliberately dislodge a rock that they don't like, because now that it's dislodged, well, I guess we can just toss it...


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## SugarHigh (Dec 9, 2011)

This happens in all riding areas lately. Part of the popularity of the sport. Obstacles get dummed down and the trails get wider. Strava lines are the most frustrating though. It used to drive me crazy. Now I just try to do what I can to minimize it and correct it if possible. 

They crazy part is many of the folks doing this think they are helping others. Would be great if they would respect the original trail builders that put in the real work and had the vision.

Last, great pictures and passion!


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## stevland (Nov 4, 2011)

It's odd that as these changes happen to trails no one seems to know who is responsible. Same goes for bad behavior on trails and at trailheads that loses us access. More self-policing needs to be part of the solution


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It's a constant battle, there are few opportunites to build such trails and we (my local trail org) spend more time de-sanitizing them to get them back to their original, intended and approved challenging state, than we do maintaining them. The only thing that works is to use bigger rocks than a single sanitizer can move. 

I honestly don't get it. I like trails I can't clean, there's way too many that I can.


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## Jayson44 (Aug 12, 2005)

JoePAz said:


> The problem is all your techy bits are climbing. Nobody wants to climb any more and nobody wants to do techy climbs. They all want to just "send it" on downhills. Climbing is too much work.


this. all day long.

I love our sport, but this is the way the masses want to enjoy it. (see e-bikes)

J.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

Adding: The video accompanying the first post is really excellent. I had not watched it prior to my earlier post, but would encourage all to take the time.


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

mikesee said:


> Moore stands alone out there as a challenging trail.


Ummmm.....Mack Ridge? 
Yes, not as consistently brutal as Moore, but _challenging_ nonetheless!


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Really well said Mike & I concur 100%.
I've ridden the trail maybe 12-15 times & can't say I've gotten all the moves despite sessioning several of them. But the thing is I really enjoy the challenge & think about attacking them next time. This is especially exemplified when you have some like minded friends encouraging each other and studying the lines/moves. Makes for a really memorable time. 

Part of the problem may be the culture, bikes, vids etc are all geared toward going fast. We need to highlight the fun factor in rides that require a different kind of skill and consequences for committing & the satisfaction from such. Perhaps a placard with a similar explanation at the parking lot kiosk & both ends of the trail would be helpful? It seems people there & the loops really take the time to read them.


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## wagonpilot (Jul 5, 2017)

Sidewinder is a multi use trail that I ride as much or more than most. I ride it on my moto, and it has always been one of my favorite go to trails because it was doable, yet had lots of interesting features. I have been able to see the transformation of this trail each time I ride it.. Rocks stacked here, rocks moved there. Some rock gardens removed completely. I just don't understand... I believe flow trails are lots of fun, but not everything needs to be a flow trail.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

jncarpenter said:


> Ummmm.....Mack Ridge?
> Yes, not as consistently brutal as Moore, but _challenging_ nonetheless!


OK, so 6. That said, Mack from E to W is easy. It's flipping it that brings the challenge out -- and not surprisingly that's our favorite way to ride it.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

cookieMonster said:


> What's your take on that? Is that sanitation gone too far? Should everything be left?


If it's one random loose babyhead I don't see a problem kicking if off the trail. Chances are it's going to end up booted off the trail by somebody's tire anyway. And I don't think anyone's going to be like "damnit, somebody moved my favorite rock that was rolling down the trail last week!"

On an old school technical trail, anything that isn't loose......hell no, don't touch it. And as you noted, if the trail has tons of loose rock, then leave them.

It also depends on the nature of the trail and who you are. If it's a purpose built flow trail with smooth berms, and you are the builder/maintainer of that trail, then obviously it's fair game. In that example, embedded rocks that work their way up to the face of a berm serve no good purpose, and are often removed.

On the whole though, things would be far better if all mountain bikers (and other trail users) took the approach of "if it isn't mine....don't touch it."


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

stevland said:


> It's odd that as these changes happen to trails no one seems to know who is responsible. Same goes for bad behavior on trails and at trailheads that loses us access. More self-policing needs to be part of the solution
> View attachment 1166569


I don't understand the picture.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Mikesee, 

You need 3 things to solve this problem:
1. At least 5 strong guys or gnarly ladies
2. A rock bar
3. Persistence

Every time a cheater line goes in, close it off, or add some feature that is harder than what it is bypassing. Win-Win, you end up with more challenging options than you started with.

Don't take sensitization lying down. Fight fire with fire.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

twd953 said:


> Mikesee,
> 
> You need 3 things to solve this problem:
> 1. At least 5 strong guys or gnarly ladies
> ...


If it were up to me...

...but it isn't. Not my place to change the trail either. Erosion happens, and sometimes trails get easier as a result. Not much can be done about that, other than proactive design and maintenance.

Think the authorities would look the other way, at least for a little while, if we hid in the p/j and shot the sanitizers with paintball guns?

No lasting damage has to happen to them -- just need to get their attention, and get them to associate p/j with snipers...


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

mikesee said:


> I don't understand the picture.


Bar of soap in a towel. Ever seen the movie Full Metal Jacket?


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

mikesee said:


> If it were up to me...
> 
> ...but it isn't. Not my place to change the trail either. Erosion happens, and sometimes trails get easier as a result. Not much can be done about that, other than proactive design and maintenance.
> 
> ...


What happened to the original builders that you helped build the trail, and who now maintains the trails and who is the land owner/manager? If the person making the changes doesn't have permission to do so, then they won't be very popular with those who do have that responsibility.

That could be an opportunity to get involved and be the voice of reason and advocate for preserving that type of trail.

Of course that gets more challenging if you've got well meaning volunteers doing the sanitizing or a land manager that never wanted the trail there in the first place.

The erosion issue can also be a tricky one. If a poorly designed trail erodes, gets more challenging, then gets fixed to it's original state, someone will almost always call that sanitizing the trail. A decent trail builder/maintainer, should put a lot of thought into layout to avoid those problems, and a lot of thought should also go into what truly needs fixing as a trail ages and evolves vs what can be left.

I do like the paint ball gun idea.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Well said, great pics as always. Boston, MA area rider here. Sanitizing is everywhere. One of my popular local spots, we ( 15 of us) spent a 6 hrs fixing stuff instead of building sweet singletrack, thats the part that sucks. Braids are worse, who cuts the corner on an almost, flat smooth corner? They go 10 ft instead of 20 ft? Stravatards? Racers? Sort of at a loss. My solution to not cleaning a climb? Ride it in the other direction, works every time. Fortunately we have so much rock, granite, slab and such, some of the lines won't change. Isn't bleeding and cussing part of most rides? Maybe some sort of educational pitch to some of the ( younger) riders? Either online, meeting or kiosk posters would be a start?


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## Geralt (Jul 11, 2012)

Wonder if adding something like "Technical trail. Do not alter trail features." to the trail head signs would make a difference. Or would something like that just make people think they have the green light to alter every other trail?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

The last video of you guys desanitizing the trail put a big smile on my face. I’d pitch in on the work if I lived anywhere near there.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

I think that your typical Fruita mountain bike tourist isn't going anywhere near Moore Fun, or Mack Ridge for that matter. More than likely, its the locals that are sanitizing these trails, the young locals - bike shop fanboys. What does COPMOBA have to say? Maybe its time to work with the LBS's and COPMOBA and try to get the message out there. What else can you do? Its only going to get worse unless there's some sort of direct, educational action taken - most people doing this probably don't even know its an issue or understand what they're taking away from other riders. COPMOBA hangs signs out there, why not signs about sanitization? Hopefully its not trail organizations doing the sanitizing - sometimes it is. 

This is why my family has become more involved with trail builds around here - those who dig, decide, and we're trying to keep trails from getting too dumbed down by being out there during build days so our voices are heard when it matters...before something gets sanitized. I know in this case, the trail is already established, so not terribly applicable, but I get it. I hate the new machine built, 6% grade, 2ft wide standard trails going in everywhere, but I'm starting to think of these as "terrain parks"...places where the park rats will congregate and stay, leaving the more tech trails untouched. Sadly, in this instance, that's not the case. 

Maybe game camera's to catch the "perps", followed by public shaming?

My wife maiden name is Moore, and she's left Moore blood on Moore fun.


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## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

Many of the trail sanitation stories I read go like this:


Trail was initially built as an unsanctioned rake-and-ride, poorly designed & routed.
Trail was initially buff and flowy to ride.
Time, weather, and use eroded the trail into a rooty, rocky, chunderfest chute.
Advocacy group forms, remediates & reroutes the trail, using sustainable design & techniques, with approval from landowner.
Trail is now flowy again and sustainable.
People that never join an advocacy group, never get involved, and never trail build, blast them for taking away the challenge.

The OP's post is *NOT* one of those stories.

From what I understand, here's a trail that was designed, from the get-go, to be difficult to master. It has held up to time, man, and weather. The trail mods are unsanctioned. There are plenty of easier trails accessible from the same trailhead. There is no good reason to be dumbing down and building ride-arounds on this trail. If you can't ride it, get better, and if you can't get better, ride something else. It's the American southwest after all. It's not like you don't have any other place to ride.



> If you see someone sanitizing a move on *any* trail, educate them. Maybe they don't know any better.


^ This, more than anything else, this. Forgive them, for they (probably) know not what they do. Many times it's simply an education problem. They simply don't understand what harm they are causing. They probably think they are doing everyone a favour because they are making the trail ridable. They can't fathom how anyone could possibly ride this, or even derive enjoyment from it.

I remember riding a very technical trail network in my area for the first time, after many years of riding mostly wide cinder paths and forest roads, thinking that that was mountain biking. I remember thinking: "This is stupid. No one can ride this. I want to ride my bike, not push it." Then I joined a group ride at the same network, and my mind was blown. They were not just riding down features, but *up* them as well.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

watermonkey said:


> I think that your typical Fruita mountain bike tourist isn't going anywhere near Moore Fun, or Mack Ridge for that matter. More than likely, its the locals that are sanitizing these trails, the young locals - bike shop fanboys.


My wife, myself, my riding partners -- we're out there regularly. We rarely see anyone else on the trail, even when parking lots are half full or more. When we do they're tourists that stumbled in and had no idea what they were signing up for. The first question they ask, usually spoken while attending to a bleeding elbow or knee, is: "What's the quickest way out of here?"

The caveat is that we, and most longtime locals, refuse to go on weekends when the tourist zoo takes over. Which makes me lean toward the fact that it's not the locals.

Another fact pointing toward that is knowing how few of the shop rats here _actually ride_ anymore. You'd be amazed. And of those that do, the ones that limit themselves to road, or e-bikes, or shuttle monkeying vastly outnumber the ones that might find themselves on Moore Fun.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

ray.vermette said:


> From what I understand, here's a trail that was designed, from the get-go, to be difficult to master. It has held up to time, man, and weather. The trail mods are unsanctioned. There are plenty of easier trails accessible from the same trailhead. There is no good reason to be dumbing down and building ride-arounds on this trail. If you can't ride it, get better, and if you can't get better, ride something else.


Yes, you have that all correct.



ray.vermette said:


> Forgive them, for they (probably) know not what they do. Many times it's simply an education problem. They simply don't understand what harm they are causing. They probably think they are doing everyone a favour because they are making the trail ridable. They can't fathom how anyone could possibly ride this, or even derive enjoyment from it.


Part of my thought process in making that video, writing those words, and sharing this post is to educate. There are people out there that either don't know they aren't supposed to alter the trail, or both don't know *and* think that no one could ride it, so they must be helping.

Sharing this thread with as many people as possible, especially beginners, is my attempt at curbing the insanity.

I fear that changing the minds of long-time riders (or, um, hikers?) who sanitize under the cover of darkness isn't going to be as easy, nor effective.


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

I thought it was a popular trail. I saw about 12 people on it last time I rode it 3-4 weeks ago. Definitely a fun one that is actually a good mix of tech, flow, and the best scenery in that trail system IMO.

I think with the advent of 29 inch bikes, plus size tires, all paired with full suspension, it's super easy for people to create B lines around obstacles. It's like a 4x4 truck. Nothing will ever change, especially in super popular areas like this one. 

IMO the only thing you can realistically do is advocate for B lines so A lines stick around. Not sure why anyone would dislike having go arounds? Seems like purely an ego issue. Let people ride around and you will get less people messing with the A line, less being the key word as you will never stop people messing with trails, ever.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Steezus said:


> I thought it was a popular trail. I saw about 12 people on it last time I rode it 3-4 weeks ago.


Like I said -- I won't ride it on a weekend, so I don't have that perspective. Good to know it's getting ridden though.



Steezus said:


> I think with the advent of 29 inch bikes, plus size tires, all paired with full suspension, it's super easy for people to create B lines around obstacles. It's like a 4x4 truck.


That may be the case in other areas, but I don't think it applies to Moore Fun. People are having to heave 30# rocks out of the way to open up the cheater lines.



Steezus said:


> IMO the only thing you can realistically do is advocate for B lines so A lines stick around. Not sure why anyone would dislike having go arounds? Seems like purely an ego issue. Let people ride around and you will get less people messing with the A line


I'm fairly confident that was the thinking that led to the creation of our latest trail, Hawkeye. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, something was lost in translation: It's neither technical nor fun -- using Moore Fun as the standard -- uphill or downhill.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Thanks Mike. Love Moore Fun and this makes me want to get out there and give it another go (before it becomes a rail trail).

I've shared your post and video on my facebook feed. Hope more people will do the same. We need to get the word out. I think signs at the each end of the trail and on some of the key features that have been dumbed down would help. I think most people who sanitize just don't know.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

I've only ridden it once from the North? end where Mary's & Mack come together. t looks like many of your photos are riding the other direction? It was challenging for sure but that it what I like. I walked plenty but my issue on that trip was more fitness than technical hazards. I would absolutely go back because the ride down to the Kokopelli Trailhead was pretty bad-ass even though 3 out of my 4 friends walked plenty of it going down and vowed never again. They are more the 18 Road types anyway  

I'll be back out there next May so we'll have to give it a go.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I hate this crap. Around here the problem is Strava and the generation of riders who missed the days of full rigid and early suspension.

Before and after. The root is the best line.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Just watched the video.

1. I need to ride that trail.
2. Mountain biking needs more of this and less "flow."
3. This video needs to be on the _front pages_ of MTBR, Pinkbike, NSMB, etc.


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## mbmtb (Nov 28, 2013)

Some things I noticed....

* The trailhead sign... does it talk about the tech level of the trail? Is there a very early 'filter' feature? (Maybe with a sign 'must be this tall to ride'/'please don't move the rocks')?

* Some of those lines... I have no idea how I'd be expected to know the 'right' vs 'wrong' one. Though the wall sure helps.

* As people have mentioned--why not have an A/B line in places where there's space? A lot of the video sounded like "I made this for me and other people don't like it so i hate them". Make both of you happy if possible!

* But so nice not to have a roadway. That's the fight in most places--"don't you want this nice pretty 20' wide paved trail with a yellow line down the middle"?


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## rippling over canyons (Jun 11, 2004)

I love that trail. If you can't ride something try to improve your skills or walk around it. My favorite trails are ones I can't completely clean. All other trails in the area are relatively easy (Horsethief, except for the drop in, Mary's, Steve's, Wrangler). There is no need to alter Moore Fun to the level of these other trails. Very inconsiderate to do so.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Right on, Mike. Keep fighting the good fight. I believe Kevin Foote was the primary mastermind behind the layout of Moore Fun and am absolutely certain he agrees with your sentiment. I ride it every time I go to the Kokopelli/Mack area.

The cave switchback in 2001 - glad to see it is just as challenging.


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## Plummit (Jan 14, 2004)

Wish I could give you rep for this, but it won't let me. Guess I've liked your other posts too much in past. All the way with you on this. We have a saying around here that trails shouldn't be cleanable by everyone, every time. In fact the best trails aren't cleanable by anyone every time. Otherwise, if you are riding tech, what's the point? Can Moore Fun be unsanitized? Good luck!


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

mbmtb said:


> * As people have mentioned--why not have an A/B line in places where there's space? A lot of the video sounded like "I made this for me and other people don't like it so i hate them". Make both of you happy if possible!


In my area where there are 2 options the easier line gets used and the harder line gets reclaimed by nature.


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

Great post Mike and thank you for your work on Moorefun. I've ridden it a few times. There is something satisfying about completing Moorefun, not cleaning everything, getting your arse handed to you in spots, telling yourself "if only I rode this every day, I could ride it non stop" and knowing the trail will be there next time out to test your mettle on. Goodonya!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

cookieMonster said:


> Just watched the video.
> 
> 1. I need to ride that trail.
> 2. Mountain biking needs more of this and less "flow."
> 3. This video needs to be on the _front pages_ of MTBR, Pinkbike, NSMB, etc.


I've been in contact with peeps from Pinkbike, Adventure Journal, and Outside Mag since publishing this post/vid. Since my intent was to shine a light on the problem, their interest (and far bigger collective audience) seems like progress.

Awareness and education ("just because you or I can't ride it, doesn't mean no one can, so let's leave it alone...") will go a long way.


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## endo_alley (May 28, 2013)

It's elves on 29ers sanitizing everything.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

twd953 said:


> What happened to the original builders that you helped build the trail, and who now maintains the trails and who is the land owner/manager? If the person making the changes doesn't have permission to do so, then they won't be very popular with those who do have that responsibility.
> 
> That could be an opportunity to get involved and be the voice of reason and advocate for preserving that type of trail.
> 
> Of course that gets more challenging if you've got well meaning volunteers doing the sanitizing or a land manager that never wanted the trail there in the first place.


The trail is on BLM land. There is no active maintenance or management of it. It is a brilliant trail in that way -- truly low maintenance. There was a reroute a few years back on the E end, that added a sort of 'squirrel catcher' of features that should clue you in, quickly, as to what's coming. But other than that I can't think of any 'official' maintenance that's been done on it. Erosion isn't really an issue either -- what little is happening is slow and not changing much.

The trail was designed, built, and approved as a tech trail. Everyone involved then knew what it was about. Some of those people are still around, but my perception is that few of them still ride this trail. I could be wrong on that.

None of the changes I'm grousing about here have been proposed or permitted. It is all bandit stuff, done on the fly.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

could probably catch them with cameras on trail then follow-up with them.

a trail in my area was sanitized by an insane rider a few years ago. he was caught and banned from the county park. i say insane because he got furious after he did an endo on a water bar and then went nuts and tore out 6 or 7 water bars by hand. it was a herculean and insane response. to me the guy was a psychopath who should have been locked up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## endo_alley (May 28, 2013)

cjsb said:


> could probably catch them with cameras on trail then follow-up with them.
> 
> a trail in my area was sanitized by an insane rider a few years ago. he was caught and banned from the county park. i say insane because he got furious after he did an endo on a water bar and then went nuts and tore out 6 or 7 water bars by hand. it was a herculean and insane response. to me the guy was a psychopath who should have been locked up.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Make your water bars more or less the wheelbase of a typical mtb and they will work better and ride fine. Off topic but WTH.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

endo_alley said:


> Make your water bars more or less the wheelbase of a typical mtb and they will work better and ride fine. Off topic but WTH.


The water bars and the trail were not the problem.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Fuzzy Dunlop01 (Nov 29, 2015)

mikesee said:


> My wife, myself, my riding partners -- we're out there regularly. We rarely see anyone else on the trail, even when parking lots are half full or more. When we do they're tourists that stumbled in and had no idea what they were signing up for. The first question they ask, usually spoken while attending to a bleeding elbow or knee, is: "What's the quickest way out of here?"
> 
> The caveat is that we, and most longtime locals, refuse to go on weekends when the tourist zoo takes over. Which makes me lean toward the fact that it's not the locals.
> 
> Another fact pointing toward that is knowing how few of the shop rats here _actually ride_ anymore. You'd be amazed. And of those that do, the ones that limit themselves to road, or e-bikes, or shuttle monkeying vastly outnumber the ones that might find themselves on Moore Fun.


Gotta doubt a tourist is taking time to cut a braid when they're never gonna ride that trail again.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## hurtssogood (Jul 21, 2008)

Thanks for starting this thread and making that video, I hope it gets circulated, but I'm guessing most of the people that need to see it won't. I've resigned myself to the camp that says might as well have an A and B line, because at least the A line will still be there. I've actually had "battles" on some of the trails here (Tahoe). After many years of riding these trails and trying to clean some little bits, I come across a section that has been neutered (sanitized, dumbed down, girlfriended, whatever you call it in your parts). I'll restore it to the way it existed for the past however many years (I've been here around 15). I'll come back a week or two later and it's altered again. Once again I restore it, making it a bit more difficult for someone to alter it. A week or two later, same thing. Eventually I just want to ride my bike and not work on a project every time I'm on the trail, so I might concede defeat.
Fortunately this isn't a huge problem here - the bigger issue tends to be people widening trails because they are scared to ride though a bit of mud or snow (because they have to ride the trail in the spring when there will clearly be snow), or too lazy to pick up the bike and walk over a fallen tree (or cut the tree, or stack some logs to make it rideable). Unfortunately, as I'm sure is the case in many areas, we now have an organization that has built itself up in recent years (TAMBA), since most of the trails were built, and reroutes and sanitizes entire sections of trails in the name of "sustainability". Most of these trails were built by hikers decades ago, and all were at least somewhat challenging to ride on a bike, at least uphill. Now we have tons of trails that all feel like the same trail, easy to ride uphill, boring downhill, but at least they provide easier access to the fun stuff, some of which is hidden in the woods where the locals have built the trails that the local trail organizations won't.


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## endo_alley (May 28, 2013)

It is a tough line between sustainable trails and challenging riding trails. Where we are, the USFS soft surface trails are little by little being reworked to allow pack/ stock access. Which means wide corridor and wide easy turns. The BLM land seems to allow a little more variance in mtb trail design. I think the point that some trails will just be a good access to other more remote trails is a valid point. In high desert areas like fruita and Loma, etc, there are some interesting rock and ledge formations which can make really technical and challenging riding experiences while appearing to be impervious to erosion, at least in the near term. In places like that, maybe there is a way of using information signs and bike shop posters to remind riders just how rare these highly technical sections are any more. And that they should leave them be for the sake of others.


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## hurtssogood (Jul 21, 2008)

And just to drive the point home even further, since my post this morning I went for a ride on a fairly popular trail with a bunch of little jumps and a few large boulders that you can ride over. Not one single feature on this trail is mandatory, very easy to ride around all of them, and I would say most are more intimidating than actually difficult. Yet in the past couple weeks, the backside of the boulders have been filled with dirt so that you can now roll them on a road bike. Do people actually feel better about themselves being able to ride a feature that they had to make easier in order to be able to ride it? WTF?


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

As a trail builder, I've learned the hard way by not building go around options. On trails with technical features or bigger hucks it's important to have a go around option. Otherwise sanitizing will take place at some point. Mine as well build it right from the start.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

As a trail builder, I've learned the hard way by not building go around options. On trails with technical features or bigger hucks it's important to have a go around option. Otherwise sanitizing will take place at some point. Mine as well build it right from the start.


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## endo_alley (May 28, 2013)

Alimon - You can say that again!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

hurtssogood said:


> Thanks for starting this thread and making that video, I hope it gets circulated, but I'm guessing most of the people that need to see it won't. I've resigned myself to the camp that says might as well have an A and B line, because at least the A line will still be there. I've actually had "battles" on some of the trails here (Tahoe). After many years of riding these trails and trying to clean some little bits, I come across a section that has been neutered (sanitized, dumbed down, girlfriended, whatever you call it in your parts). I'll restore it to the way it existed for the past however many years (I've been here around 15). I'll come back a week or two later and it's altered again. Once again I restore it, making it a bit more difficult for someone to alter it. A week or two later, same thing. Eventually I just want to ride my bike and not work on a project every time I'm on the trail, so I might concede defeat.
> Fortunately this isn't a huge problem here - the bigger issue tends to be people widening trails because they are scared to ride though a bit of mud or snow (because they have to ride the trail in the spring when there will clearly be snow), or too lazy to pick up the bike and walk over a fallen tree (or cut the tree, or stack some logs to make it rideable). Unfortunately, as I'm sure is the case in many areas, we now have an organization that has built itself up in recent years (TAMBA), since most of the trails were built, and reroutes and sanitizes entire sections of trails in the name of "sustainability". Most of these trails were built by hikers decades ago, and all were at least somewhat challenging to ride on a bike, at least uphill. Now we have tons of trails that all feel like the same trail, easy to ride uphill, boring downhill, but at least they provide easier access to the fun stuff, some of which is hidden in the woods where the locals have built the trails that the local trail organizations won't.


 " Girlfriended? " Kind of a neanderthal comment. All the ladies I ride with usually kick ass.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

I just want to add everyone blaming strava and "endurobros" is grossly stereotyping a user group that I don't think is the problem. I strava. I race a lot of Enduro. I love this trail. I've ridden it at least a half a dozen times in the last couple years. Both directions but I prefer east to west, I usually have better odds of clearing *most* features. Most people that I know that race enduro, like to be well-rounded. Trails like this are disappearing and I don't believe it's "us". It's time to end the bickering and in-fighting in mountain biking. We're our own worst enemy. If you like to ride fast, ride fast. If you like to ride slow, ride slow. Stop telling others what's appropriate and stop modifying trails to meet your own agenda.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

leeboh said:


> " Girlfriended? " Kind of a neanderthal comment. All the ladies I ride with usually kick ass.


I've never heard that term before. Kinda odd to post that on a thread with started with 10 pictures of a lady kicking ass on a trail that was too difficult for some guy(s) to ride.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

While Strava might be a nice scapegoat, here's one thing to contemplate:

If someone was trying to go up a tech section fast (for time), getting off and CX-style shouldering the bike and running briefly is/can be far faster than slowly making your way up pedaling. 

I know this, because there's one local trail that many people can ride down easily. Going up is another story entirely, and it's far faster to dismount right before the switch back than attempting, and most likely failing, to clear the several 6-12" root drops in the middle of the tight turn. A couple friends and I were on a long ride one day, decided to stop and try to session the switchback. Someone posited that it would be faster to just get off, take three steps up and get back on. Turns out they were right, by quite a bit, even if you clean it. 

That said, I see this sort of thing done quite often. There was a section on Captain Ahab this weekend that had some rocks placed in it. A steep rock chute where someone had placed some rocks there to make the drop down into it not as steep. Problem is unless you were carrying quite a bit of speed, your front wheel is going to get caught between the natural, embedded rock and the placed rock, resulting in an OTB. I don't remember them being there the last time I rode it. I didn't remove them as that's not my place, but I can't help but feel that it wasn't part of the original trail design.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

twd953 said:


> I've never heard that term before. Kinda odd to post that on a thread with started with 10 pictures of a lady kicking ass on a trail that was too difficult for some guy(s) to ride.


Ya it's funny how what seems like a simple turn-of-phrase could be interpreted as small-minded or cruel. Interesting how we should pay attention to our behaviors. 
signed as Sometimes a Big Dummy


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

hurtssogood said:


> Thanks for starting this thread and making that video, I hope it gets circulated, but I'm guessing most of the people that need to see it won't. I've resigned myself to the camp that says might as well have an A and B line, because at least the A line will still be there. I've actually had "battles" on some of the trails here (Tahoe). After many years of riding these trails and trying to clean some little bits, I come across a section that has been neutered (sanitized, dumbed down, girlfriended, whatever you call it in your parts).


Ugh, "girlfriended", seriously? Way to perpetuate the stereotype that women only ride behind their boyfriends. Guess I'd better get back to the kitchen while my husband tunes my bike for me then...


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

twd953 said:


> I've never heard that term before. Kinda odd to post that on a thread with started with 10 pictures of a lady kicking ass on a trail that was too difficult for some guy(s) to ride.


Maybe he was just relating a term that he's heard people use in his area?

Regardless of the source, it's very poor taste to use a term like that.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

mahgnillig said:


> Guess I'd better get back to the kitchen while my husband tunes my bike for me then...


You should definitely be spending all your time in the kitchen cooking for your husband and bringing him beer as needed. Forget mountain biking:nono:; that's only for men you silly girl.

Oh how I crack myself up.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> While Strava might be a nice scapegoat,


FWIW, I don't necessarily think it's stravatards. And I've only seen 3 mentions of them here in this thread: 1 quasi-accusation, and 2 denials.

The point is NOT to point fingers and place blame. Not going to solve anything. The point is for all of us, regardless of strava affiliation, to be more attentive and speak up if we see something happening.

Thanks.


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## 7daysaweek (May 7, 2008)

That last photo is epic. Cool looking stuff.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

mikesee said:


> FWIW, I don't necessarily think it's stravatards. And I've only seen 3 mentions of them here in this thread: 1 quasi-accusation, and 2 denials.
> 
> The point is NOT to point fingers and place blame. Not going to solve anything. The point is for all of us, regardless of strava affiliation, to be more attentive and speak up if we see something happening.
> 
> Thanks.


I agree.

Thanks for posting this thread. I like to see that people still care.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Switchblade2 said:


> twd I have built tons of trails over the last 25 years and I don't remember any of them getting less challenging over the years.


I never stated otherwise, but there is a difference between a trail getting more challenging over time because roots and rocks become more exposed due to soil compaction and erosion, and a steep fall line trail with erodible soils and no provisions to shed water, that now has a 4 foot deep erosion channel washing out the entire trail.



Switchblade2 said:


> I once built two trails in the Whistler Bike Park. One is called Renegade and the other is Dealers Choice, Both of those trails go move challenging as thousands of riders bombed down them each year.


I rode Renegade for the first time on closing weekend about a month ago. Bike park trails are a bit of a different animal though for a number of reasons. First of all for the potential to be ridden by huge volumes of riders in all weather conditions. Some secret rake and ride loam trail ridden by a guy and his three bros may hold up over time, but not so much with thousands of riders going down it. The other differences being that bike park trails are managed and maintained (to varying degrees) by the park, and are purpose built for mountain bikers, most of which are there looking for a challenge. You wont have a group of angry hikers complaining about erosion and trying to get bikes banned.



Switchblade2 said:


> I for one am for well built go arounds around sections of trail I can't ride. Riding rather than walking has always been more enjoyable for me and 90% of the other riders who don't have the skill level of the other 10%.
> 
> I always find it funny when the 10% group gets pissy that a nice well thought out go around was built around a walking section of trail. Why should someone get pissy about me being able to ride a section of trail they can't 100% of the time. I am having just as much fun riding a trail that someone else enjoys walking the barely rideable sections. Just ask me.


I don't have a problem with go arounds on 3 conditions: 1) They are actually well built 2) They don't disrupt or destroy the original line, and 3) They are installed by the trail builder and/or with land manager's approval.

I think the point of this thread, and what really pisses a lot of people off is when somebody takes it upon themselves to go alter a trail without permission, and does a poor job of it. And from my experience on our local trails, 9 times out of ten the person doing those alterations doesn't have a friggen clue what they are doing. And I've seen plenty of instances of people making changes that are down right dangerous, and that goes for people adding features to trails just as much as it does those sanitizing.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

mahgnillig said:


> Ugh, "girlfriended", seriously? Way to perpetuate the stereotype that women only ride behind their boyfriends. Guess I'd better get back to the kitchen while my husband tunes my bike for me then...


Here's the ironic thing.....

One of Mikesee's riding partners is a hammer cyclist. She rides Moore Fun on a fairly regular basis. And I had the pleasure of witnessing one of the greatest things ever while riding with her and her husband.

3 of us flatlanders were out visiting and Sarah (screampint here) and her husband David were gracious enough to host us.

Sarah is the kindest, least assuming person you'll ever know. She's also a fierce competitor and competes (and wins) at a fairly high racing level. I've been riding a long time and consider myself an experienced cyclist. She's a better rider than me (fitness and skill) by orders of magnitude.

One of the days we were out there, an industry rep asked to join us. When he learned that Sarah was leading the ride, he started to buck up and talk about taking it easy, how he'll try not to pressure her wheel and generally not push things because you know, a girl is leading the group.

The casual group ride gloves came off. The meandering casual climb was no longer part of our immediate future. Sarah took us up the race loop climb at a race pace. She dropped everyone in the group and was smiling as she waited for us to catch up at the top of the climb.

As we were trying to stuff our lungs back in our chest, the industry douche-nozzle says, "I can't believe I just got chicked. You won't be able to do that on the way down."

The original plan was the Sarah would lead the climb and David would lead the descent. After the chicked comment, Sarah turned to David and told him that she was going to lead the descent.

She then proceeded to drop industry guy like a hot potato on the descent down Holy Cross.

This is one of my favorite cycling memories. Now that I think about it, a whole bunch of my favorite cycling memories are from Fruita/Junction and the fantastic people that call that area home.

Please don't f up Moore Fun. It's a great trail that I love to (mostly) hike with my bike.


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## hurtssogood (Jul 21, 2008)

leeboh said:


> " Girlfriended? " Kind of a neanderthal comment. All the ladies I ride with usually kick ass.


Not a term I use, but I've heard it. Indeed, many ladies rip pretty hard. I also do not have anything against housekeepers, testicular cancer patients, or mentally challenged individuals - those are just terms I have heard used, both on this site and elsewhere.


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## hurtssogood (Jul 21, 2008)

mikesee said:


> FWIW, I don't necessarily think it's stravatards. And I've only seen 3 mentions of them here in this thread: 1 quasi-accusation, and 2 denials.
> 
> The point is NOT to point fingers and place blame. Not going to solve anything. The point is for all of us, regardless of strava affiliation, to be more attentive and speak up if we see something happening.
> 
> Thanks.


The strava peeps (not all, but some) are more likely cutting corners and switchbacks than modifying trails - that would require stopping and not getting a record that day. Modifying trails is probably the same people trying to shortcut traffic by hauling ass down your residential street, rolling up to the express line at the grocery store with and overflowing shopping cart, driving laps around the parking lot until they get the spot closest to the gym - you get the picture.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

hurtssogood said:


> Not a term I use, but I've heard it.


I kind of suspected that was the case.

It's not a very female-friendly thing to say and should be dropped from use along with too many other misogynistic terms.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

twd953 said:


> I think the point of this thread, and what really pisses a lot of people off is when somebody takes it upon themselves to go alter a trail without permission, and does a poor job of it. And from my experience on our local trails, 9 times out of ten the person doing those alterations doesn't have a friggen clue what they are doing. And I've seen plenty of instances of people making changes that are down right dangerous, and that goes for people adding features to trails just as much as it does those sanitizing.


This really is the main point here. As the OP has indicated the sanitation is not by the local advocacy group COPMOBA - We build and maintain singletrack mountain bike trails on the Colorado Plateau in Western Colorado
or the land manager. On the other hand, the trail is 15+ years old and despite mostly being rock you can't tell me it's not getting harder. Hence, the uproar last year in the Lunch Loops. Maintenance is often equated to sanitation: https://cyclingwesterncolorado.com/...ch-loop-trail-maintenance-causes-controversy/

That doesn't seem to be the case here but the bummer is that folks don't like to get off their bikes. I get the OP's message. Don't ride it if that upsets you. But there is this sense of entitlement in our user group (all user groups perhaps?) that you can do what you want. I hate to say it but my guess is it's some locals. On the other hand, it's a Destination Area and marketed to all get out by OTE and local commerce. Riders of various skills are coming from all over the world to hit the famous trails. The question I have, is it ok to accept a little sanitation? Just seems to be impossible to stop. Those trails are getting hammered every day. I see the same impacts in Sedona. Even expert riders will ride around an exposed tree root or boulder when they could just as easily go over the obstacle. It's human nature to take the easy way out. And as the sport changes, folks seem to be favoring tech flow or faster features that slow, awkward techy climbs. That's just not many people's cup of tea. Looks at what's being built. Generally, an all purpose energy saving climb to get to what may or may not be a technical downhill but a user experience that emphasizes speed.

Moore Fun is not that. It was no doubt a difficult build and ride-arounds and B lines don't really seem like a viable option. But a mobile trail crew that could be out once a week or month doing clean up would be a good idea. In my neck of the woods the USFS won't let us have a trail crew but sure would be something to advocate for. The BLM is more open-minded. Not necessarily as a police force but keeping the tread maintained as it was intended to be ridden without having to have an official volunteer trail event once/year. And more signs like this one from the lunch loops.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

rockman said:


> Even expert riders will ride around an exposed tree root or boulder when they could just as easily go over the obstacle. It's human nature to take the easy way out.


There is a lot of truth in that statement. The trail system where I build at, we often get the complaint from self-proclaimed "hardcore" riders that there is nothing technical on these trails. It's a fair observation from the standpoint that our soil has pretty much no rock in it at all, and due to land manager requirements our multi-year build out plan calls for building the easier green and blue trails first before we get to the black and double black diamond stuff.

However, I find it absolutely comical that the worn in line on the trails bypasses every single root and rock no matter how small and trivial, and it's easy to tell that virtual nobody is riding the more challenging lines once somebody has burned in an easier line.

I've spent numerous build days hauling multiple canycom loads of boulders in to close off cheater lines. Either that, or burying large logs to serve as choke points to keep riders on the trail, otherwise any opportunity for them to ride off trail through the woods to divert around a rooty section or rock garden will be exploited in short order.

It's just the nature of the beast, if you have a technical feature in otherwise less technical terrain, you have to build it such that the intended line is the path of least resistance.


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## notso (Jan 22, 2015)

twd953 said:


> It's just the nature of the beast, if you have a technical feature in otherwise less technical terrain, you have to build it such that the intended line is the path of least resistance.


Or make the alternate line significantly longer/slower.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Strava is definitely part of the problem. In my area I know of plenty strava guys that will do anything for internet glory. I've seen it happen way too many times.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ALimon said:


> Strava is definitely part of the problem. In my area I know of plenty strava guys that will do anything for internet glory. I've seen it happen way too many times.


It's dumb to cut corners or alter trails just to improve your strava time when there's an app that makes it so much easier- Welcome digitalepo.com - BlueHost.com

Maybe trail builders should include a strava line that's dead straight and paved for the entire segment.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Switchblade2 said:


> twd so are you saying that you will close a professionally built go around that doesn't affect your challenging section because you are a control type person?


So you are saying it's your right to go out and build whatever you want, wherever you want because you're a control type person?


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

One of my favorite sections of trail!

I too have never cleaned it all in one go.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

And then you've got the likes of PB publicizing cutting/cheater lines to go faster, never mind where the actual trail is.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

This thread and it's many ramifications were on my mind a few nights this week while riding.

One of the things I've been thinking about is how modern bike geometry, and specifically low bottom bracket heights, increase (maybe accelerate is a better word) trail sanitization. Hear me out.

What I've been noticing are lots more chainring and pedal scrapes on embedded rocks that have been a part of the trail tread for decades, but are only now getting scraped or impacted. 

Some of this is erosion -- the trail is eroding around the rock, bringing it more 'up' into play. This happens pretty slowly. 

And then there's the erosion of BB height by manufacturer mandate. And this has happened so much faster that it's pretty easy to see, feel, even measure the effect.

None of the above is really up for debate -- it's happening, and readily observable.

What I keep noticing though, and that's really jumping out now that I've been able to link cause with effect, is that lots of in-trail rocks are being dug out, little by little, by low-BB riders clipping them repeatedly. Eventually, unless they're bedrock, they come loose, and then someone stops, works on it for a moment or two, and when it comes free they toss it out of the trail. Voila, the trail just got easier.

That's one thing.

The other thing is that embedded boulders or slabs *next to* the trail keep ending up *in* the trail, by the same cause. I came across two of these tonight -- one was a ~12" x ~18" x ~3" thick slab that was dead-center in the trail, and you could clearly see the spot adjacent to the trail where it'd lived for decades or centuries -- until just hours or minutes before. Just past one of them you could see where the rider had fought to keep control, and then the front wheel knifed, and then the inevitable body print and slide, then lots of footprints-going-in-circles as they'd dusted themselves off, checked the bike, and tried to understand what just happened. The second one I couldn't see where/if a crash was caused.

In neither of these instances is anyone setting out to sanitize the trail. But because they keep making contact with the embedded rocks, loosening them, and ultimately getting them removed, the trails are getting easier.

We already have land managers dumbing trails down to suit the least common denominator. And then there's the least common denominator occasionally/often taking it upon themselves to bring the trail down to their level. Now we have manufacturers complicit, admittedly unintentionally, in removing challenge from trails.

Death by a thousand cuts.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Fuzzy Dunlop01 said:


> Gotta doubt a tourist is taking time to cut a braid when they're never gonna ride that trail again.


Maybe you know this and maybe you don't. If you do, please indulge my explanation for those that don't. Desert soils are fragile, lacking organic components that would help them stick together and sustain life. The braids that we most often see on our local trails, some of which are featured in the video in my original post here, don't have to be "cut" or "built": They happen simply from one rider going off trail, or around a move. Doing so leaves a track in said fragile soils -- one that takes months (sometimes more, depending) to "heal" or at least become invisible. But usually, waaaaay before it becomes invisible, someone else takes that braid, and then another. You get 10 or 20 people riding that braid, once, and it can be difficult to distinguish the original line from the braid. Just the nature of desert soils.

So, getting back to your original statement, I'm not suggesting that anyone -- tourist or local -- is stopping to create a new line. I'm saying that some of them are simply riding off trail, and in that simple, seemingly harmless, utterly thoughtless act, a braid is born.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Switchblade2 said:


> I for one am for well built go arounds around sections of trail I can't ride. Riding rather than walking has always been more enjoyable for me and 90% of the other riders who don't have the skill level of the other 10%.


By that rationale, every section of every trail should be doable by every rider? If you follow that line of thinking to it's logical conclusion, then every section of every trail should be wheelchair accessible.

If you reject that premise, which I do, then you realize that you need trails to suit all levels of rider. We have that, albeit the percentages are skewed heavily toward beginners and intermediates. That is, ~90% of our trails are beginner or intermediate level. 10% are advanced or expert.

You arguing that every trail should be doable by everyone is just as selfish and non-sensical as anyone arguing that all trails should be expert level.

I'm not arguing for either perspective. The % of expert trail is not the discussion we're having. Keeping expert trails expert is.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Mike-

You're on to something with the BB heights. Saw scrape marks on the trails in Moab that I couldn't figure out. 

Pedal marks all over the place. I put a small rock down on top of one of the scratches and tried to hit them with my pedals. I couldn't. Despite my terribly "long" 175mm crankarms and not super low 13" BB height. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Mike-
> 
> You're on to something with the BB heights. Saw scrape marks on the trails in Moab that I couldn't figure out.
> 
> ...


Maybe a lot of those marks could have been caused by people who neglect to maintain their suspension systems? I'm curious, what is the norm for bb height these days? Seems like ~12.5-13" used to be common.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

ALimon said:


> Strava is definitely part of the problem. In my area I know of plenty strava guys that will do anything for internet glory. I've seen it happen way too many times.


The local high school team was cutting corners on a locals only trail here for top strava times. A heads up to the coach had them doing trail maintenance.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Vader said:


> The local high school team was cutting corners on a locals only trail here for top strava times. A heads up to the coach had them doing trail maintenance.


That's such bs, if I cut a corner and got a KOM I'd flag it myself.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> Maybe a lot of those marks could have been caused by people who neglect to maintain their suspension systems?


It could be lots of things -- suspension being one of them.

That said, suspension has been around for a long time, and this epidemic (<-too strong?) is much more recent. I can remember back a year or three and envision lots of these rocks with no (or at least very, very few) scrapes or gouges -- the timing of which neatly coincides with the start of the low BB trend.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

An interesting premise but I think if the rocks are that susceptible to pedal strikes they were eventually coming out anyway. Maybe it accelerates the process but I get the point. 

I get considerably more pedal strikes on my Ibis 29r than and I do on my turner RFX. I have to ratchet a lot when climbing chunky trails. Turner has not completely bought into the long, low, and slack degree so many bikes are designed around these days.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

mikesee said:


> It could be lots of things -- suspension being one of them.
> 
> That said, suspension has been around for a long time, and this epidemic (<-too strong?) is much more recent. I can remember back a year or three and envision lots of these rocks with no (or at least very, very few) scrapes or gouges -- the timing of which neatly coincides with the start of the low BB trend.


I have noticed on the Dells trails that erosion is making the rocks significantly higher in areas of mixed soil and rock. It has happened relatively fast, say, 3-5 years. It increases the difficulty for sure.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

rockman said:


> An interesting premise but I think if the rocks are that susceptible to pedal strikes they were eventually coming out anyway.


If it ain't bedrock then it's susceptible.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

mikesee said:


> This thread and it's many ramifications were on my mind a few nights this week while riding.
> 
> One of the things I've been thinking about is how modern bike geometry, and specifically low bottom bracket heights, increase (maybe accelerate is a better word) trail sanitization. Hear me out.
> 
> ...


Yes, where bikes could be potentially more capable than ever (in more conditions), the flow trail mentality instead probably dictates what the bicycle mfr's sell, resulting in bikes that are ultimately less capable on tech terrain.

Seeing your trails, compared to our local trails, is mid-boggling in that if we had large spaces without trees, you'd see 50 people riding mountain bikes on trails that zig-zag and double over on themselves in an effort to generate some distance in a relatively confined space. You'd also see a separate horse trail, and then a separate hiking trail, all in view of a paved multi-purpose trail, which would be near a paved road. Mind-boggling. I'm thankful for trees.

But the braids happen here as well, and just as quickly (if not quicker due to heavy traffic). Say a tree goes down. If there is _any_ chance to ride around it, the first person through will ride around it. I've done it myself. In the middle of Summer, this is very difficult (not impossible) as undergrowth clogs most alternate lines. In the Winter, though, even without snow cover, the ridearound is instantly evident. As trail stewards, it is imperative that we get the deadfall cleared immediately AND block the bypass with the debris, or it will always be in play.

As far as planned go-arounds or B-lines, there is a limit to what is acceptable, and personally I think the limit should be extremely small. If _every_ A-line has a B-line, then you've really built 2 trails.
(In your best Louis Black voice) Why not just build the B-line SOMEWHERE ELSE!?! [expletives]:madmax: :madman: :incazzato:[/expletives]

That is all.

-F


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

mikesee said:


> It could be lots of things -- suspension being one of them.
> 
> That said, suspension has been around for a long time, and this epidemic (<-too strong?) is much more recent. I can remember back a year or three and envision lots of these rocks with no (or at least very, very few) scrapes or gouges -- the timing of which neatly coincides with the start of the low BB trend.


 I get what you are saying with the low bb. Offset by the lack of a triple crank these days though? Most are running a smaller front chainring. And are 29er bb's higher than the 26er bb's?


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

I see Mikesee has been organizing a Lynch mob to go out get some frontier justice. There's no place like an internet chat room to stir people into knee-jerk action. And we all know that on MTBR, everyone goes along with the narrative that trail work is essentially sanitizing and dumbing down of trails that we all want kept as difficult as possible, right? Who's with me? Let's grab our paint-ball guns and go get us someone who is riding around a tech section. 

Mikesee, you didn't have to go fishing around various forums, including Arizona, just so you can post videos of yourself cleaning difficult sections of trails, and then telling us all that we need to spend our time learning to balance on our bikes and do trials type moves like you do, or ride elsewhere. 

You need to understand trails aren't built for you and your skill set. Land managers don't sit around and with very limited budgets, come up with the idea of building a trail that appeals to 1 out of 1000 riders. But then if you are one of those 1 out of 1000 riders, you often believe you are being ignored (and you are), and you deserve your very own trail to test your skills and to spend 30 minutes riding and re-riding a ten foot section of trail, while making sure you are filming, to be able to show others how skilled people ride. 

I've ridden with riders of great skill in Sedona. We rode 5 miles in 2.5 hours. I'm serious. That is how it works with riders who focus on super tech skills. 

I don't like your circle-jerk mentality here. I don't really care if riders like me are your sworn enemy because I maintain trails. I maintain them and I often have to restore them. I also have built new lines and b-lines. You act like you know the original builders intent and tell others it is disrespectful to change his trail. That's utter rubbish. All builders make alignments that flawed. They don't notice the speed of riders approaching a turn and fail to create a chicane or something to slow them. Next thing you know, there are washboard bumps from skidding bikes. Erosion exposes tree roots that hook pedals. Cut the roots or move the trail a foot or two. 

It doesn't matter how you sell it, by guilting people or by threatening people, you want to decide what is best for others, the majority of riders. Even the majority of really good riders don't want to walk their bikes. Most riders are out to ride, not walk. If I wanted to hike a trail, I'd have worn more comfortable shoes and left my bike at home. 

You have a local rider who is altering your favorite trail. From the looks of it, he hasn't made much progress and is wasting his time. It seems like there are more suitable trails he could ride nearby. 

When I have worked on trails, 90% of the work was brushing. I can't recall ever being called out on MTBR for cutting low branches or cactus that cuts your arms. The other 10% is a combination of making and improving drains, and clearing loose rocks. But 1% of the work goes beyond that. It is the removal of rocks with pedal scrapes on them. Hazard rocks. 

But I don't hide from criticism. Ask Rockman about the Lynch mob that came after me when my crew altered Rocky Ridge Trail in Flagstaff in 2003. There were between 6 and 20 hike-a-bike sections prior to our restoration work. Afterwards, an intermediate rider could clean the 3 mile trail, for at least three years, on a good day. Before the work, the trail was being ridden by maybe 200 riders a season. Afterwards, it was being ridden by 2000-4000 riders a season. Riders who had been riding a road nearby to bypass the trail. Expert riders preferred to skip the trail. 

But if you went to the local mountain bike bar, similar to this thread, you'd hear everyone telling stories of how they cleaned the trail and how it is now wheelchair accessible. Same old, if you can't ride it, learn, get better skills. That isn't how it works most of the time. People weigh the cost of urgent care and the time off their bike from a broken collarbone, and they walk their bikes. They don't just decide to keep crashing and injuring themselves until they can clean something 3 out of 5 times, and maybe break a derailleur the other 2 times. 

I don't mind being a spear catcher on this thread. I've all but quit doing trail work. Two spine surgeries, three knee surgeries, two foot surgeries, a broken collarbone, broken bones in my hands, broken toes. It's crazy hard work. So I don't mind sharing my experiences and telling folks like Mikesee that he is not a demographic that is considered, or should be considered, when trails are being built or restored, or maintained. A guy with Mikesee's skills barely needs a trail. And there just isn't enough land and money and time for land managers to build trails for 1% of riders who want to be the only person ever to clean a route.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Did you read any of it? It doesn’t seem so. It seems that your opinion was already formed before you arrived here, and you decided to share it *and* make this about yourself instead of the issue. That’s too bad.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Boris? Bad day I guess? Did you read the first post? Expert trail. So many others in the area for the "1,000" as you say. Do you ski a double black diamond trail with a shovel to flatten all the moguls? Or pick something in your skill level? So you're done sanitizing, great. The issue of sanitizing is rampant everywhere. And really sucks. If you don't want to walk? Stick to the blue or green trails, easy. I don't mind walking a section, at all. Sometimes I clean it, sometimes not. In my group I ride with , someone will usually clean it. It's called a challenge and skill building. Dude.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

leeboh said:


> I get what you are saying with the low bb. Offset by the lack of a triple crank these days though? Most are running a smaller front chainring. And are 29er bb's higher than the 26er bb's?


Chainring size doesn't have a direct impact on pedal strikes. Sure, a smaller chainring will have more clearance so you don't scrape the chainring on things, but you'll always strike a pedal (if you don't time your pedal strokes) before you will scrape a chainring.

A lower bottom bracket will make a bike more susceptible to both pedal strikes and scraping chainrings compared to an equivalent bike (i.e. same suspension travel/sag/spring rate) with a higher bottom bracket.

Also, larger wheels (29" vs 26") doesn't automatically mean higher bottom bracket because frame designers take into account the wheel size and adjust the bottom bracket drop of the frame accordingly. I'd imagine there are plenty of examples of newer 29ers that have lower bottom brackets than 26ers from 15 years ago.


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## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

That is a challenging trail. I wish it was in my neck of the woods. I would love to walk it. 

On my local trail, even though it is not technical at all, some riders still find it necessary to create short cuts to get more speed. Originally i just used to ignore it but we ended up losing a couple of sections of trail that were fun to ride. These days if I see a shortcut, I interrupt my ride and close it off. Sometimes it takes a few tries before they give up but I am stubborn.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mikesee said:


> Did you read any of it? It doesn't seem so. It seems that your opinion was already formed before you arrived here, and you decided to share it *and* make this about yourself instead of the issue. That's too bad.


I read every single post. Of course I've formed an opinion. You aren't the first person to go on about what you call trail sanitizing. You aren't the first person to try to get others worked up into a frenzy and sort of suggest maybe it's time for acts of violence against people doing trail work you don't like. We live in a time when making simple suggestions about paint balling someone, often leads another to suggest wrapping a bar of soap with a towel and beating someone with it. It's all just fun and games until some lunatic takes action and assaults someone.

I get that your particular trail is on BLM land and was designed to appeal to technical riders. I think your local rider who is making changes is foolish, because he has other trails he can ride. But I also think these discussions go way beyond your particular trail. Most people commenting, discussed b-lines on their local trails and trails they use that are being dumbed down, in their opinion. That is what happens on these threads, and you know it. You chose to post on the Arizona forum, knowing nobody on that forum touched your trail. Most never heard of your trail. You just think you are educating people, while being condescending and attacking trail work that doesn't suit your style of riding. You blame Strava riders. I personally find people who ride at race pace a bit odd, as they don't have the time to stop and visit or simply enjoy the scenery. But I find them no less odd than someone like you, who knows they spend a lot of time just repeatedly riding each tech section in order to film themselves cleaning it, then posting that video to educate the rest of us on what you desire to ride. You and the Strava people are of little interest to me.

I can see how Switchblade has upset some folks here. I could care less if he says something in a way that is displeasing. I know exactly what he means, and I agree with him. Expert riders want the best possible experience. Most all expert riders also want an experience different than what you want. They don't want to stop every few minutes to film themselves. They want to ride. They don't want extreme risk. They definitely don't want to walk their bikes. They have very advanced skills, but they also know the cost of failing. They don't wear lobster gear for protection. They don't go out for a 9 mile ride that takes 3 hours, because they stopped to session a tech section (and film themselves). They don't need smooth trails, but they want a trail that flows and has challenges that they feel comfortable riding.

If you design an expert trail that makes experts walk their bikes, you are a pro trail builder. You design trails that experts can ride completely and will hold up for years to come, with minor maintenance. Most of the people posting here have no idea what goes into trail design and construction. They just go along with the notion that trail work = a dumbed down trail. I watched Rockman's video and they were ducking under tree branches and getting hooked by brush hanging across the trail. Most of Sedona's trails are not maintained by the FS. If mountain bikers don't do the maintenance, it won't get done. Certainly not by equestrians and hikers. But you already know that the people who post on these forums are all too busy to show up for trail work. Besides, that would mean they are dumbing down the trails, right?

The people on the Arizona forum, didn't care for your attitude. It was wrong for you to take what you see as a problem to our state and try to rally support. Rockman and Switchblade have earned the right to say what they believe. Most of the knuckleheads on this site haven't done anything to improve riding opportunities and experience. I wish you'd stick to posting cool pictures and stay away from judging people who do trail work. I'd really rather not get assaulted by someone you inspired.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Went to the AZ forum. I feel soiled, yikes! Boris, MA rider here. You should dial it down a bit claiming to know what most riders want, or what expert riders need. Dude. First, what's lobster gear? I'm on the coast, never heard that term. Most folks wear arm and leg armor here. I walk my bike on almost every ride, as it should be. Don't pander to the lowest common denominator. Whatever happened to a challenge? When I don't clean a section, I just ride it in the other direction, works every time. More serious how does one determine an expert trail? One that 80% of the good riders can clean? In what direction, what conditions? 60%, depending on what line they take? 90%.? Just all seems arbitrary. I love trails, or some lines that no one cleans every time. How else does one get better? Really.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I just enjoy riding. I ride what's in front of me and never entertained messing with it for any personal reason. A quality, fun filled experience on my bike is my only objective.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Boris Badenov said:


> You and the Strava people are of little interest to me.


Add a sinister sound track and an evil laugh and this could be a scene from a bad 90's action flick, complete with Boris the evil Russian bad guy.

j/k Boris, hope you have a good weekend!

I see both points of view, maybe because I like both technically challenging and easier flow trails. I think it's possible to have both. I think the key is that unsanctioned trail work is a no-no, and people shouldn't make changes without going through the proper channels (i.e. land managers, land owners, original builders, or whatever the hierarchy happens to be). Some trails are built to be technical. Others are built to not be. Still others are perhaps subject to modification in either direction, which is fine so long as the stakeholders are in agreement or at least mutual understanding.

But the moral of the story is, I think, don't be an asshole. Unilaterally modifying a trail without permission so you get get a better strava time or avoid having to walk is being an asshole. The same goes for modifying a trail to make it more difficult or cutting off B-lines that were designed with permission/authority/original intention/whatever. In short, if the trail doesn't belong to you - what makes you think you have a right to change it?



Cleared2land said:


> I just enjoy riding. I ride what's in front of me and never entertained messing with it for any personal reason. A quality, fun filled experience on my bike is my only objective.


So don't be an asshole, be like this guy^^. Maybe that way Mikesee and Boris won't get so angry.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

Can someone please go out and film Boris riding so he can work through his feelings of inadequacy and maybe only mention being filmed in every other paragraph?

Attacking folks who want to maintain the status quo on a fantastic trail like Moore Fun is asinine.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Read what Mikesse wrote in his first post. "Most" people who ride this particular trail are walking...and bleeding. Then he mentions someone was working on the trail and that there is no challenge left in that particular section. He says it was dumbed down. Others here, support the notion that working on a trail dumbs it down and sanitizes it. Mikesse stated the trail didn't require trail maintenance, other than an occasional loose rock moved off the trail.

To dustedone, you are the problem here. You and others like you. I applaud Mikesees skills. I've enjoyed his ride photos for years. Like you, I don't think he knows a great deal about trail design and maintenance. You certainly don't. I told him he has a local rider who is out doing rogue trail work on a technical trail, and that is strange, since he could simply ride a different trail. 

My gripe was that Mikesee was stirring up dopes like you, who tend to react exactly like you did. Some are joking (I hope just joking) about going out and assaulting people who do trail work they do not approve of. They quit talking specifically about the trail he describes and instead, they begin stating their opinions about all trails that have technical challenges should not have b-lines, ride arounds, or any accommodations for riders who don't want to risk injury, but also don't want to walk their bikes. Almost to a person, people making these statements know nothing about how trails get designed or built or maintained. They are all trying to act like all trail work is an insult to their skills they have worked hard to achieve. 

I agree that this particular trail is unique and should be signed accordingly. But the people posting are criticizing trail work of all kinds on other trail systems, without understanding anything about how those trails came to be and how they are changing and falling apart. When you start seeing double tracks and braids around eroded sections void of drains and proper outsloping, it isn't long before those trails are abandoned. And who is going to come in and restore those trails. Not you, that is certain. You just expect the land manager to fix the problems, when the land manager doesn't have the time or money or manpower to do it. As soon as Mikesee left his home turf and started whining on the AZ forum and going after well respected people who know far more than he does, he crossed the line. Most of us doing the heavy lifting know that MTBR forums are best avoided because they are full of poseurs who imagine themselves to be riders of superior skills that deserve all our respect.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

I stopped reading your latest whine once you went to the childish name calling, assuming that I’m conflating Moore Fun with some other trail, know nothing about trail design and maintainence, etc. 

I stopped because I pity you. Really. 

You don’t know me from Adam yet have to slap together straw man arguments to make yourself feel better. That’s sad. 

I first rode Moore Fun in 2001 and loved it. 

Attacking folks who want to maintain its character speaks volumes about your insecurities. 

Hopefully someone volunteers to film you so you can start working past the despair that you’ve displayed here.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

I've openly said I support Switchblade. He has put in more hours of work than anyone here. Probably more trail work than everyone here combined. My 4000 hours of trail work pale in comparison to what he has done. 

This was never about Moore Fun. I hope people continue enjoying walking their bikes and getting bloody on it as Mikesee described. If that is the experience they want, great. 

This is about people who do not participate in trail construction or maintenance and believe that all trail work should only be done if and when it is approved by land managers. All other trail work is wrong to them and is dumbing down trails and sanitizing them. 

They are wrong. I'd like to ask those who hold that belief to refuse to ever ride a trail that was built by mountain bikers without approval from land managers. Walk to talk. You will lose out on over half the trails you currently ride. Or half or more of the trails available to ride. Most of the trails in Sedona were built by mountain bikers, without any permission from the Forest Service. Not dozens, but hundreds of trails. They are the most popular trails and they are maintained mostly by mountain bikers. Call them wildcat trails or rogue trails, it doesn't matter. In time, the FS has adopted more and more of them into their system. People on MTBr like to predict that we will lose access to trails and have them taken from us because of wildcat trails. The opposite is true. The land managers regularly adopt user built trails into their trail system. But rather than thank those builders, and the riders who maintain those trails, dopes who know nothing about how we got our trails, condemn the builders and suggest they are dumbing down the trails and sanitizing them. 

Most of what we do is maintain the trails to prevent them from widening. Once a trail is rutted, riders high-side to the left or to the right of the erosion ruts. They widen the trail and turn it to double-track. When brush is not cut and loose rocks are not removed, riders abandon the trails or do ride-arounds. We work to prevent that. Yes, if their is a hike-a-bike tech section, you might see a b-line so riders can stay on their bikes. The original tech line is not altered. 

I admire Mikesee's skills and his passion. I admire people like Switchblade even more for building and maintaining so many trails in Sedona. Mikesee took some cheap shots and even tried to get people in the mood to assault those of us who do regular trail maintenance. It started out as joking about shooting people with paintball guns, but then there were others who seems to endorse that or something more sinister. Let's not joke about assaulting people doing trail work. I hope we can agree on that. 

But understand the land managers are not a benevolent bunch of dedicated public servants. They are not passionate about mountain biking. We are. That is why we built most of these trails to begin with. That is true in most places I've ridden. In Bend, Oregon, and in Sedona, AZ, and in Moab, Utah, and all across North America. If you ride only trails built by land managers, you are missing out on the best trails. You should know that most of you are riding on trails built illegally. And now they are being maintained by riders who are not dumbing them down or sanitizing them. They are preserving them.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

Boris Badenov said:


> This was never about Moore Fun.


Let me help you out here.

This thread was and should be about Moore Fun.

It was about Moore Fun until you started your whiny rants about perceived slights that you imagine you suffer because you allegedly do some trail work. Just like your fellow idiot John Finch you've taken to mewling "me,me,me" and taken a thread about Moore Fun down a rabbit hole lined with fantasies and projection that ultimately ends in your abject idiocy as the focal point.

Again, this was always about Moore Fun. Start at the beginning:

"Preserving Moore.
There's this trail in our backyard. Pretty technical, in an old-school, slow-speed, rock crawling sort of way. It is one of our favorite trails because it requires a delicate blend of skill, finesse, and horsepower to ride well."


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## snark7 (Sep 7, 2010)

because "no one can ride that, there is no way, that can't be part of the trail, i can't ride it, so probably no one else can. i will just help everyone so we can all ride it. " i'm sure that is what people are thinking when they "help." not malicious, just ignorant and solipsistic.


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## snark7 (Sep 7, 2010)

did you read the same article i did? because there was no call for a lynch mob, this wasn't about frontier justice, there was no guilting or threatening. 

perhaps if you read the article you might have an applicable reply.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

dustedone said:


> Again, this was always about Moore Fun. Start at the beginning:


So you stopped reading after the first post, did you? Most every comment after it, the poster discusses a different trail, usually in their area. In one of Mikesee's posts, he spells out what this was always about;



> The % of expert trail is not the discussion we're having. Keeping expert trails expert is.


So, many of us, unlike you, who design trails and build trails and maintain trails, and also restore trails, have knowledge about how to preserve expert trails. It involves hard work including brushing, clearing and improving drains, removing loose rocks, adding soil to fill rain ruts, adding or removing b-lines, and sometimes removing large rocks that force expert riders to walk and then abandon the trail to a select few.

Here are a number of comments from various people who mostly discuss what they describe as trail sanitizing on trails not in Colorado:



> If you see someone sanitizing a move on *any* trail, educate them.





> it happens the world over, people don't want to take the time to learn the skills, get the fitness, whatever to ride these sorts of trails





> I live (northeast Pa) some people just are afraid of trying certain obstacles. But if they only knew how big a smile they will have when they clear it, I'm sure they wouldn't dumb down a trail. We see it a lot. Tight turns are made into straight aways&#8230;





> sanitation is getting ridiculous. We have one trail locally that looks similar to this one (albeit it's probably much shorter), and to my dissatisfaction -- found out the last time I rode it that one of the biggest rocks had been removed. At speed, you could launch off this rock and drop about 5 feet to a perfect natural transition. The rock had a perfect dirt ramp behind it, and was probably close to weighing 600 pounds or more. There was a clean line around it; it was not a mandatory huck. Well, somebody(s) took it upon themselves to remove it from the trail and cast it aside. This had to have taken a great deal of effort. That one feature was something I looked forward to every time I rode that trail. Now, I don't even know if I feel like riding that trail anymore...
> 
> Complete BS.





> We have had several local incredibly challenging trails completely obliterated and re routed into swoopy, fun, but ultimately non challenging alternatives.





> used to get all wrapped up about sanitization, now I am a little less uptight about it for a couple reasons:
> 
> 1. Every trail represents humans sanitizing terrain. Every single one. There is little to no raw terrain in its natural state that we ride.





> This happens in all riding areas lately. Part of the popularity of the sport. Obstacles get dummed down and the trails get wider.





> More self-policing needs to be part of the solution
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> It's a constant battle, there are few opportunites to build such trails and we (my local trail org) spend more time de-sanitizing them to get them back to their original, intended and approved challenging state, than we do maintaining them. The only thing that works is to use bigger rocks than a single sanitizer can move.





> On an old school technical trail, anything that isn't loose......hell no, don't touch it. And as you noted, if the trail has tons of loose rock, then leave them. On the whole though, things would be far better if all mountain bikers (and other trail users) took the approach of "if it isn't mine....don't touch it."





> Don't take sensitization lying down. Fight fire with fire.





> If it were up to me...
> 
> ...but it isn't. Not my place to change the trail either. Erosion happens, and sometimes trails get easier as a result. Not much can be done about that, other than proactive design and maintenance.





> Think the authorities would look the other way, at least for a little while, if we hid in the p/j and shot the sanitizers with paintball guns?





> I do like the paint ball gun idea.





> Boston, MA area rider here. Sanitizing is everywhere.





> Maybe game camera's to catch the "perps", followed by public shaming?





> IMO the only thing you can realistically do is advocate for B lines so A lines stick around. Not sure why anyone would dislike having go arounds? Seems like purely an ego issue. Let people ride around and you will get less people messing with the A line,





> * As people have mentioned--why not have an A/B line in places where there's space? A lot of the video sounded like "I made this for me and other people don't like it so i hate them". Make both of you happy if possible!





> We have a saying around here that trails shouldn't be cleanable by everyone, every time. In fact the best trails aren't cleanable by anyone every time.





> In my area where there are 2 options the easier line gets used and the harder line gets reclaimed by nature.





> a trail in my area was sanitized by an insane rider a few years ago. he was caught and banned from the county park. i say insane because he got furious after he did an endo on a water bar and then went nuts and tore out 6 or 7 water bars by hand. it was a herculean and insane response. to me the guy was a psychopath who should have been locked up.





> (Tahoe). After many years of riding these trails and trying to clean some little bits, I come across a section that has been neutered (sanitized, dumbed down, girlfriended, whatever you call it in your parts). I'll restore it to the way it existed for the past however many years (I've been here around 15). I'll come back a week or two later and it's altered again.





> As a trail builder, I've learned the hard way by not building go around options. On trails with technical features or bigger hucks it's important to have a go around option. Otherwise sanitizing will take place at some point. Mine as well build it right from the start.





> I see this sort of thing done quite often. There was a section on Captain Ahab this weekend that had some rocks placed in it. A steep rock chute where someone had placed some rocks there to make the drop down into it not as steep.





> I don't have a problem with go arounds on 3 conditions: 1) They are actually well built 2) They don't disrupt or destroy the original line, and 3) They are installed by the trail builder and/or with land manager's approval.





> twd so are you saying that you will close a professionally built go around that doesn't affect your challenging section because you are a control type person?


If you noticed, most of these people were discussing trails other than Moore Fun. There were some good ideas, and there were the predictable comments suggesting all trail work is sanitizing and bad. Even a few suggestions about assaulting people who do trail maintenance. Explain how I'm wrong about that. If you have years of experience doing trail maintenance, I'd like to hear about it. If you aren't doing any of the hard work to provide more new trails and maintain them, you are little more than a heckler, sitting in the peanut gallery.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Boris Badenov said:


> I see Mikesee has been organizing a Lynch mob to go out get some frontier justice. There's no place like an internet chat room to stir people into knee-jerk action. And we all know that on MTBR, everyone goes along with the narrative that trail work is essentially sanitizing and dumbing down of trails that we all want kept as difficult as possible, right? Who's with me? Let's grab our paint-ball guns and go get us someone who is riding around a tech section....


Them's there fightin' words.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

Boris Badenov said:


> So you stopped reading after the first post, did you?


Nope. That's just you being confused again.

"This was never about Moore Fun" was, and is, both silly and false.

(snipped a whole bunch more whining, assumptions, and projection. And multiple quotes that you wasted even more time cutting and pasting. Sad!)


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Dude, you should put down the crack pipe.


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## mtnbikeguru (Nov 16, 2017)

miksee, am in total agreement with you. So many of the Grand Valley trails are being dumbed down. Another culprit is people who get the ok to do trail work and smooth it out, a.k.a. Hilltop work crew. Holy Cross has suffered because of them, remember the rock move next to the small tree, was cut out and discarded. Now the trail is 3 feet wide. 
We all need to stop thinking me,me,me and protect the trail for the future. Leave technical trails technical and flow trails flow. Be a better judge of your own self and get better or walk away saying that move got me. Don't change a move or feature for your thin skinned pride.


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## drlg (Sep 18, 2010)

mtnbikeguru said:


> miksee, am in total agreement with you. So many of the Grand Valley trails are being dumbed down. Another culprit is people who get the ok to do trail work and smooth it out, a.k.a. Hilltop work crew. Holy Cross has suffered because of them, remember the rock move next to the small tree, was cut out and discarded. Now the trail is 3 feet wide.


That is the feature that irks me the most and is the poster child of the true dumbing down of intermediate and advanced trail features in the Grand Valley. There was absolutely no erosional or trail sustainability issues at the rock/tree stump. It only required one to time their pedal cadence or ride up the rock to clear the feature. Not only was the stump or tree taken out, but the section was widened to 3 feet.

As stated, there has been a problem with dumbing down of trails in the Grand Valley, and one of the reasons was the BLM giving free-rein to the supervisor of the Hilltop work crew to make trail repair/modifications that the supervisor saw fit. I would prefer that COPMOBA take the lead on that work. There is also the general problem of rouge riders making modifications as well which is seen everywhere.

As for Moore Fun, I vote to keep it difficult. It's been a long time since I've ridden it, but when I did, I found that the personal satisfaction of cleaning a step up or rock garden way out-weighed the many other features that I'd have to walk.


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

Moore Fun was the first trail I rode in Fruita. Can't say I cleaned everything, but loved it. Nothing there that I'd want to change!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

People want tough techy trails then they need to give up on all that high tech cushy modern bike stuff which really dumbs down the trails. Bikes like the one in this video will make any trail much more challenging. And isn't that what we are after??
Screw the droppers, protective gear, wide bars, tons of bottomless travel, hydraulic disc brakes, "modern geometry" etc. Skid lids, lycra and bar ends are where it's at!


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

On the same note, this is my favorite 






richwolf said:


> People want tough techy trails then they need to give up on all that high tech cushy modern bike stuff which really dumbs down the trails. Bikes like the one in this video will make any trail much more challenging. And isn't that what we are after??
> Screw the droppers, protective gear, wide bars, tons of bottomless travel, hydraulic disc brakes, "modern geometry" etc. Skid lids, lycra and bar ends are where it's at!


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

richwolf said:


> People want tough techy trails then they need to give up on all that high tech cushy modern bike stuff which really dumbs down the trails. Bikes like the one in this video will make any trail much more challenging. And isn't that what we are after??
> Screw the droppers, protective gear, wide bars, tons of bottomless travel, hydraulic disc brakes, "modern geometry" etc. Skid lids, lycra and bar ends are where it's at!


Been there, done that. Rode all kinds of rocky descents on 1990's era hard tails with v brakes, including all of Noble Canyon (including widwmaker). I much prefer my 150mm full suspension slack geometry all mountain bike. Less chance of injury now that I'm older and less aches and pains at the end of the ride.

I still like techy trails even though I have a more capable bike, but I would ride the same techy trails on a less capable bike. Occasionally I still do, just to see if I can.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

richwolf said:


> People want tough techy trails then they need to give up on all that high tech cushy modern bike stuff which really dumbs down the trails. Bikes like the one in this video will make any trail much more challenging. And isn't that what we are after??
> Screw the droppers, protective gear, wide bars, tons of bottomless travel, hydraulic disc brakes, "modern geometry" etc. Skid lids, lycra and bar ends are where it's at!


Bikes don't dumb down a trail, riders do. Lots of ways to make a trail challenging regardless of what bike your on. If everything seems plush and bottomless, you're not going fast enough.


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## drboudreaux (Nov 1, 2004)

Rode Moore Fun again this weekend. Last time I rode it was about 4 years ago.

Ditto on keeping it difficult. I didn't clean everything, but I had such a good time trying.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Reality check....

Mountain bikers are control freaks and are gold members of the "uptight-white-guy" club.


Yeah, I like trails difficult, techy, and, just the way _I_ like them. So, I do a lot of trail work, but realize I don't own the public land. Come on, getting upset and incessant bitching about some dudes who moved a few rocks around, out in the middle of nowhere, on public land.... major control issues. Also, this is a big time first world problem.


I know dudes who like to complain like this. We have quite a few miles of trail in our remote location. About 5 guys routinely build trails, and even less routinely maintain them. The biggest complaint from most of them is we don't have enough help with trails. The second biggest complaint is how they are unhappy with the work of the other builders. Go figure.


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## Heathpack (Sep 9, 2017)

leeboh said:


> " Girlfriended? " Kind of a neanderthal comment. All the ladies I ride with usually kick ass.


Yeah, totally agree. Made me want to drive up to Tahoe and alter all this guys trails, lol.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Switchblade2 said:


> Yesterday a dedicated group of volunteers came out and dumbed down the lower section of this challenging section.


Who are these "dedicated group of volunteers"? They look more like US Forest Service uniforms.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> Clear our dedicated Sedona volunteer group works from 9 am to 12 pm then the USFS takes over. I took the pictures around 2 pm so the volunteers were gone. I use to do ALL the maintenance on that section of trail before they thought I was a bad person and terminated my volunteer agreement.


I'm curious, did any of those riders you photographed clean that switchback? I looks challenging at slow speed with all the uneven surfaces.

Actually, I just looked over the pictures. That one guy appeared to ride tight into the turn when you took the first shot of him. But the second shot shows him in a different position, like he failed his first attempt and then backed down to the outer edge of the turn to restart and make another attempt. Did he make it either time? I like to find expert level riders and use them to design the turns. If an expert walks it, I keep widening it and flattening it out until they can make it without dabbing. Then the intermediates have at least some chance at riding it occasionally.

But I do like the serious rock work. My spine hurts just looking at those big heavy rocks.


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## mbmtb (Nov 28, 2013)

that trail wouldn't happen to be one of the major connectors between one side of oak creek and another, would it?


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## mbmtb (Nov 28, 2013)

Switchblade2 said:


> You are correct, Templeton switchback climb.


What do you think the intent of that trail is?

It's both an important connector and also has that stretch of steep tech climbing right in the middle which almost no one can clear. On either side of the climb it's not particularly crazy though there's a tight spot or two.

I'd classify it as different from other trails where the tech is the focus of the trail and not a connector.

(And I just looked at the trailforks map... almost everything is black according to it! Then has some percentage in the text, like Beginner 10%, intermediate 70% and advanced 20%. Not that informative about intent unless you like deciphering long text.)


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Templeton is an old clapped out system trail never intended for bikes. Dumbing it down (if you can call it that) is just putting lipstick on a pig and not really germane to this thread which is about a purpose-built mtb trail meant to be technical.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Switchblade2 said:


> Once mountain bikes evolved to a point that advanced riders could ride steep technical terrain, it became an exciting technical downhill segment of trail.


Nah, it was just a hiker burned in path between Back of Beyond and Budhu Beach. As for an exciting technical downhill that's too funny. I mostly see beginners and intermediates walking down it because they don't know any better. Since you like percentages my guess is 95% of the mtb traffic is climbing the templeton switchbacks to complete a loop with HiLine.



Switchblade2 said:


> mb the intent of that section of trail is to move hikers and mountain bikers from Oak Creek to the high point of the north end of the Templeton trail. The existing route was an attempt to make that section more rideable in the uphill direction and more sustainable. The current route is a reroute of the original route which was more rideable in the downhill direction by advanced riders. What do you think the intent was of the original reroute?


Hard to say. I first started riding it in the late 80s. The reroute happened in the mid 90s I believe because part of it was on private property. As I recall the original trail was easier to ride. I applaud the USFS and VVCC volunteers for enhancing the user experience on this section of Templeton but whatever they do it will never be sustainable. There's just too much impact, the monsoon rains too intense, and the alignment sucks.

Either way, the point of this thread was to address the issue of certain individuals within the mtb community dumbing down technical moves on trails that were purpose-built to be technical. The Sedona stuff doesn't belong here. I'm sorry you got shafted in your own community and the land manager bent you over but that's a different story to tell. As for the issue at hand anyone who is still interested in this thread I suggest reading this document about "trail quality" and the "user experience".
https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/f...lines-for-a-Quality-Trail-Experience-2017.pdf


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Sorry but comparing Templeton to Moore fun is not apples to apples. One is a connector trail, the other is a stand alone. If you're using moore fun as a connector you're wrong. The only reason I've ever ridden templeton is to complete the hi line loop as well.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Switchblade2 said:


> Street I don't mean to be argumentative but how is a 3.4 mile long trail a connector trail.


How does it function in the larger trail network? Connection is a function irrespective of length.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Miker J said:


> Reality check....
> 
> Mountain bikers are control freaks and are gold members of the "uptight-white-guy" club.
> 
> ...


Sadly I totally agree...


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

evasive said:


> How does it function in the larger trail network? Connection is a function irrespective of length.


exactly. The only reason I'm on templeton is to get to (depending on where you start), or back from hi line. Speaking of this it amazes me there isn't a pedestrian bridge over oak creek at the end of hi line/baldwins... especially for a MTB "friendly" town.

To get to moore fun you have to purposely ride it.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Streetdoctor said:


> exactly. The only reason I'm on templeton is to get to (depending on where you start), or back from hi line. Speaking of this it amazes me there isn't a pedestrian bridge over oak creek at the end of hi line/baldwins... especially for a MTB "friendly" town.
> 
> To get to moore fun you have to purposely ride it.


There is a bridge just a bit downstream from pink toes crossing but it's private so it's a poach. Pedestrian bride at Red Rock Crossing would ruin perhaps the most photographed vista in Sedona with the view of Cathedral Butte but not a bad idea.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

rockman said:


> There is a bridge just a bit downstream from pink toes crossing but it's private so it's a poach. Pedestrian bride at Red Rock Crossing would ruin perhaps the most photographed vista in Sedona with the view of Cathedral Butte but not a bad idea.


I figured there was an issue otherwise it would be there already. That bridge is the only thing keeping me from riding hiline 4 or 5 times in a day, for some reason it always seems I'm there when the water is too high to cross as well.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Streetdoctor said:


> I figured there was an issue otherwise it would be there already. That bridge is the only thing keeping me from riding hiline 4 or 5 times in a day, for some reason it always seems I'm there when the water is too high to cross as well.


Most just ride from the VOC side unless you're doing a Triple H. Guess it depends on where you're staying. The trails in the Carrol Canyon area are fun too. ADOT's proposal of a bridge connecting Verde Valley School Rd and Red Rock Loop created quite a bit of controversy. The traffic is so bad spring/fall on 179 it might just be a matter of time. Good thread hyjack:thumbsup:


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

rockman said:


> There is a bridge just a bit downstream from pink toes crossing but it's private so it's a poach. Pedestrian bride at Red Rock Crossing would ruin perhaps the most photographed vista in Sedona with the view of Cathedral Butte but not a bad idea.


I'm sure they could come up with some kind of red sandstone-inspired bridge that would add to the scenery.


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

jeffw-13 said:


> In my area where there are 2 options the easier line gets used and the harder line gets reclaimed by nature.


Yea, that is pretty much what happens here. Original line disappears.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

elder_mtber said:


> Yea, that is pretty much what happens here. Original line disappears.


Personally I like having a B line. Usually I go for the more challenging line but if it's late in the ride & I'm tired or I just dont have good legs that day I'll hit the easier line.

Also most of the trails around here are shared with horses so B lines just happen. I do like to see that some of the more skilled horsemen sometimes hit our more challenging lines, places where I wouldn't think folks would take a horse.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

Boris Badenov said:


> You need to understand trails aren't built for you and your skill set. Land managers don't sit around and with very limited budgets, come up with the idea of building a trail that appeals to 1 out of 1000 riders. But then if you are one of those 1 out of 1000 riders, you often believe you are being ignored (and you are), and you deserve your very own trail to test your skills and to spend 30 minutes riding and re-riding a ten foot section of trail, while making sure you are filming, to be able to show others how skilled people ride.


+1 this...


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

RajunCajun44 said:


> +1 this...


Except in this case, where the trail in question, Moore Fun, was approved by the BLM to be built specifically for skilled riders.

Where would we be without trails of increasing difficulty to graduate to? Why would anyone want to argue against that?


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

mikesee said:


> Where would we be without trails of increasing difficulty to graduate to? Why would anyone want to argue against that?


Because unfortunately, it seems to be a common mindset these days that anything that doesn't cater to the lowest common denominator must be "elitist."

Maybe instead of building progressively harder trails for people to have to work towards and practice on, we can just remove all technical features and give out "Participation Awards" at the bottom.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

mikesee said:


> Except in this case, where the trail in question, Moore Fun, was approved by the BLM to be built specifically for skilled riders.
> 
> Where would we be without trails of increasing difficulty to graduate to? Why would anyone want to argue against that?


I wasn't saying I am against your op argument.. I was just saying I totally agree with Boris' statement, and it his statement doesn't apply to your point, so be it...


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Some posts in this thread have me very confused. :???:

Considering all of the backlash I read from people making unsanctioned [<-- key word] trail modifications, am I reading here that people really take it upon themselves to "move loose rocks" or whatever to "improve" the trail?
I think they need to get out more... to some different trails.

One that leaps to mind is the Windy Gap route in GA. If someone attempted to "move loose rocks", they would be there for an eternity.

How 'bout this?





Too much walking? Would someone really come in and try to "fix" some of those tough sections? I've heard the LHORBA trail builders speak of it. They use us out-of-towners (and flat-landers to boot) as test monkeys. :lol: If we don't cry, they leave them as-is. So far, I've never seen an "improvement", and I only know one or 2 riders who have ridden >90% clean there. Pretty much everyone who goes there thinks they are awesome trails. Lots of people do NOT go there because it looks hard. Or are these considered "easy" by absolute, rather than regional, standards? I need a frame of reference.

Ellicottville, NY Bent Rim trail is another. Who would run out and try to "fix" that? The challenge is posted in the trail description: "_This trail has been cleared with no dabs. See if you can do it! _
If you're OK to mess with that, you might as well be sawing off man-made stunts in the bike park to "fix" them.

-F


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## rippling over canyons (Jun 11, 2004)

Switchblade2 said:


> miksee some of us are communicating back to you why certain sections of Moore Fun are being changed. We all know the BLM is underfunded and doesn't have the man power to maintain their trail system. You asking mountain bikers on MTBR to stop doing trail maintenance on Moore Fun probably won't deter people like Boris from making the trail Moore enjoyable to ride by the majority of the users.


Go do that to intermediate or below trails. Don't dumb down advanced trails. That is not enhancing the user experience. At Kokepelli's Loops there are about a dozen intermediate or below trails. Moore Fun is the only advanced trail there (Horsethief has a difficult drop in and one challenging shelf contour; overall the trail is intermediate). So, it is completely selfish to want to make the only difficult trail "enjoyable to ride by the majority of users." Additionally, mountain bikers who are improving their skills can easily portage a few difficult sections on a trail and still have an enjoyable time (obviously, not you). But, once you dumb down a section it is gone forever, never to return, leaving more advanced riders with nothing to ride. Once again, there are plenty of easy trails to ride. There are very few difficulty trails to ride. Leave these trails alone.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> ....You asking mountain bikers on MTBR to stop doing trail maintenance on Moore Fun probably won't deter people like Boris from making the trail Moore enjoyable to ride by the majority of the users.


By this logic, should we also eliminate features and reduce steep angles on black diamond ski runs? Cuz, you know, that's what the majority wants? How about chipping away at rock routes that are above 5.9 to make them easier for more people? And while we're at it, let's manicure the features in Class IV and V river runs....


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Smithhammer said:


> By this logic, should we also eliminate features and reduce steep angles on black diamond ski runs? Cuz, you know, that's what the majority wants? How about chipping away at rock routes that are above 5.9 to make them easier for more people? And while we're at it, let's manicure the features in Class IV and V river runs....


But advanced boaters like walking their rafts through Upset.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

evasive said:


> But advanced boaters like walking their rafts through Upset.


Aye. May we all continue to have such opportunities.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> Fleas I watched your video and am curious what you rate the trail in the video. Please give a percentage rating for each degree of difficulty on this trail (Beginner X%, Intermediate X% and Advanced X%).


Blue Knob has a "state park" side and a "resort" side. The park side is steep (~700'), so some trails are rated black for the climbs. I think they are blues, and based on technical features they are mostly green and fast. The resort side is rocky with less climbs, but it's still a ski resort so there's a hill. Those trails are rated for the rocks. Those ratings are usually based on the most challenging sections and don't really indicate an average difficulty.

https://www.mtbproject.com/directory/8009981/blue-knob-state-park
http://www.lhorba.org/files/maps/BlueKnob_Upper_August2013.pdf
http://www.lhorba.org/files/maps/BlueKnob_Lower_August2013.pdf

In the vid, the trail where people are walking is rated black on the resort side, where the tough sections (0:25) are black but the rest is blue (IMO). So like 90% blue/10%black (making it a black). It had rained so the blacks were pretty tricky. I've ground down some pedals there.
At 1:15 that is a tough blue, maybe a black when wet. Note how many people are off their bikes.
At 1:20 that is a tough blue, but I wouldn't call it a black.
2:30 blue.
2:50 blue.

The Lookout Loop, I think, is slightly under-rated. Throw some water on it, and it's a solid black simply for the ledgy/bumpy/steep entrance from the 3 Springs Connector. The middle of the loop is blue (0:54) and def. not black.

Lost Turkey (not shown), is rated double black due to some exposed, ledgy, rocky, large, sharp "step" downs that you have to roll and be right on target (short wheelbases need not apply). There is nothing but big, sharp rocks within 30ft of the trail. They are probably over my head. I haven't convinced myself to try them so along with most everyone else I walk them. We know one guy who rode it clean on his first look, though.

There are only about 2 beginner trails there and they are both double-track.

-F


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Flea that section you call black in the video I think would be considered easy or low intermediate for most riders in my area. I don't think that's the kind of thing that would get sanitized.

I googled lost turkey and found a youtube video, and although it is a little hard to judge from the video that I saw, that looks like a solidly intermediate trail to me.

By comparison, here is the trail the OP is talking about, Moore Fun:





While Moore Fun looks to be a fun, challenging tech trail, it does not seem like something impossible to clean for a good rider (though it always seems to look easier on the camera then in real life). It does not seem like the kind of thing that an expert rider would have to walk any significant portion of - maybe get off the bike here or there due to a hang up or on one of those super tight switch backs. This talk of it being a favorite trail for experienced riders to walk seems overblown.

For another contrast, this is a local trail that I would consider to be really hard, and something that I definitely have no shot at riding clean:


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> ...I predict you will never STOP PASSIONATE riders from doing improvements on Moore Fun.


I think the heart of the problem lies in the fact that you view trail alterations, on a trail that was designed for a specific and intentional line, as "improvements" rather than "shortcuts."

It's beyond my mentality to ever think that, if I found a certain section of trail too challenging for my current abilities, I would take it upon myself to physically alter it and change someone else's work and design. Instead, my first inclination is that this a challenge I need to work at with the hope of eventually cleaning it.

If a trail is designed poorly, and is leading to unnecessary erosion, etc. then that's a different story. But I would still bring it up with the trail builder first and point out how improvements could make the trail more durable and sustainable.

Changing someone else's trail just because you find a section too hard is lame, pure and simple.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Smithhammer said:


> I think the heart of the problem lies in the fact that you view trail alterations, on a trail that was designed for a specific and intentional line, as "improvements" rather than "shortcuts."
> 
> It's beyond my mentality to ever think that, if I found a certain section of trail too challenging for my current abilities, I would take it upon myself to physically alter it and change someone else's work and design. Instead, my first inclination is that this a challenge I need to work at with the hope of eventually cleaning it.
> 
> ...


"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Smithhammer again."


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

evasive said:


> But advanced boaters like walking their rafts through Upset.


Never! I do remember a private boater taking it upon themselves to dynamite the only class V on the Salt River. Pretty selfish act.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

rockman said:


> Never! I do remember a private boater taking it upon themselves to dynamite the only class V on the Salt River. Pretty selfish act.


He was a commercial guide, tired of walking his boat around it, so he (and others) sanitized it.

This scenario was actually on my mind when I was writing the OP here. Didn't bring it up because a boating/river incident didn't seem like a near enough parallel.

Re-reading the article, it's uncanny how many parallels there are.

_"You might be disappointed if you saw the thing. It's not Niagara, but for a river-runner it was challenging because of the hydraulics."

"It doesn't look much different now, but the dynamite destroyed the six-foot drop, leaving only a tame four-foot drop above."

"It's like these guys were too lazy or too incompetent to run this rapid or go around it_"


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

mikesee said:


> He was a commercial guide, tired of having walking his boat around it, so he (and others) sanitized it.
> 
> This scenario was actually on my mind when I was writing the OP here. Didn't bring it up because a boating/river incident didn't seem like a near enough parallel.
> 
> ...


You've got a good memory. I lined it on the trip I did 1991ish and then it was eezy peezy after the sanitation. I don't remember thinking it looked that bad but I was the only raft on a kayak support trip. The 2nd time was with the diegel brothers and Rocky C and I suspect they would have appreciated the opportunity to run the unaltered rapid.

Anyhoo, what is missing from this thread is whether or not the original moves or lines on Moore Fun had gotten increasingly difficult because of erosion. If that's the case, then that's not the level of difficulty the trail builder's originally intended for the particular move or feature in question. If there was a lack of maintenance then I can see where a "passionate" biker might take it upon themselves to do a "fix". Sometimes maintenance ends up being sanitation but generally the rocks and roots always come back. IMO, if trail was meant to be technical then that's how it should stay. What's the big deal about getting off your bike and walking once in awhile?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Switchblade2 said:


> I predict you will never STOP PASSIONATE riders from doing improvements on Moore Fun.


If only they were improvements.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

rockman said:


> You've got a good memory. I lined it on the trip I did 1991ish and then it was eezy peezy after the sanitation. I don't remember thinking it looked that bad but I was the only raft on a kayak support trip. The 2nd time was with the diegel brothers and Rocky C and I suspect they would have appreciated the opportunity to run the unaltered rapid.
> 
> Anyhoo, what is missing from this thread is whether or not the original moves or lines on Moore Fun had gotten increasingly difficult because of erosion. If that's the case, then that's not the level of difficulty the trail builder's originally intended for the particular move or feature in question. If there was a lack of maintenance then I can see where a "passionate" biker might take it upon themselves to do a "fix". Sometimes maintenance ends up being sanitation but generally the rocks and roots always come back. IMO, if trail was meant to be technical then that's how it should stay. What's the big deal about getting off your bike and walking once in awhile?


I ran the Elwha this fall with Tom D.

Erosion happens everywhere -- this is earth after all, and gravity obeys no one but itself. Point simply being that it is understood that trails are going to change over time due to erosion, so we do our best to accommodate that when designing trails. But we can't imagine every scenario, and it's not possible to envision how every foot of every trail will weather use and precip over time. We do the best we can. I daresay that Moore has held up better against use and erosion that any other trail in this valley. I suspect that some of the credit for that goes to it's difficulty, and how few people end up riding it relative to how many are on Horsethief and Mary's.

Specifically, i can think of 4 moves on Moore where erosion has made them harder. Not impossible -- they still get ridden regularly. Just harder. If you hadn't ridden it in awhile you might be surprised how big of a burst or lunge was required compared to your memory of the last time you rode said move. And then, after clearing it, you'd get a yet-bigger burst of satisfaction at having upped your game to meet the challenge of the evolving trail.

And I can think of about 40 others on Moore where erosion has actually made the moves easier. And I'm fine with that. It's the humans bringing the level of the trail down to suit their desires that I can't abide.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

kpdemello said:


> Flea that section you call black in the video I think would be considered easy or low intermediate for most riders in my area. I don't think that's the kind of thing that would get sanitized.
> 
> I googled lost turkey and found a youtube video, and although it is a little hard to judge from the video that I saw, that looks like a solidly intermediate trail to me.
> 
> ...


I won't argue that those aren't both difficult, but I would contrast those, where traction on the rocks is almost infinite, to the ones at Blue Knob where a year-round film of moss means you need to generate momentum and traction where there is very little to be had, esp. on the climbs, and esp. when it rains. THAT is what makes it difficult. The risk is quite low. The obstacles are quite small.

But that is not the point. On any of those trails, there are lots of people either walking parts, based on their skills or risk tolerance, or simply riding elsewhere. They are happy to make the attempt, even if they fail. They are supremely satisfied when they succeed.

Different perceptions are a perfect reason why people should not alter trails willy-nilly. The perception of one person thinking that it's "too hard" or "too easy" is irrelevant. There is no good reason to make unsanctioned changes to a trail; which, I believe, is the point of the thread, right?

I mean, even park volunteers here do not make changes without at least notifying the land manager. Often, it requires a personal visit, or at least several photos with sketches added.

There is a similar problem at my job, where operators think they are "fixing" a machine defect, when in fact, they are damaging the machine.



Smithhammer said:


> By this logic, should we also eliminate features and reduce steep angles on black diamond ski runs? Cuz, you know, that's what the majority wants? How about chipping away at rock routes that are above 5.9 to make them easier for more people? And while we're at it, let's manicure the features in Class IV and V river runs....


I was thinking the same thing. "Improvement" would be the wrong word.

-F


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

kpdemello said:


> By comparison, here is the trail the OP is talking about, Moore Fun:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mostly I agree with you. It's doable for a solid rider, but that rider will be on and off their bike, and need to session a few things, unless they're either an exceptional rider and/or having a *great* day.

It is hard to get the technical nature of most trails to come through with POV, or handheld video, or even stills. The guy that made the POV you linked to actually included this with his YouTube video:

_"There is a lot to Moore Fun and especially a lot of really difficult climbing sections that I missed in the final cut. "_


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Yeah I figured as much. That kind of thing, meaning having to walk technical parts of a challenging trail, is standard fare for much of the riding here in Massachusetts. Places like Harold Parker, Blue Hills, and Lynn Woods have tons of difficult, rocky chutes that a rider needs to climb up and down to clean the trail. To me it is part and parcel of riding a mountain bike.



Fleas said:


> I won't argue that those aren't both difficult, but I would contrast those, where traction on the rocks is almost infinite, to the ones at Blue Knob where a year-round film of moss means you need to generate momentum and traction where there is very little to be had, esp. on the climbs, and esp. when it rains. THAT is what makes it difficult. The risk is quite low. The obstacles are quite small.


I can appreciate that level of difficulty. Wet, slippery conditions on rocky trails are my least favorite riding conditions. I have sustained many bruises and abrasions from such situations.

I do concur with the general point that modifying a difficult trail just because you can't clean it is lame. But I do like when trails are designed with good B lines, too. Some days I just don't have the mojo to be awesome.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mikesee said:


> Except in this case, where the trail in question, Moore Fun, was approved by the BLM to be built specifically for skilled riders.
> 
> Where would we be without trails of increasing difficulty to graduate to? Why would anyone want to argue against that?


It's great that the BLM approved of a technically challenging trail. We do not have enough of them. I have been pleading with a local land manager to come out with me on an existing trail on land they purchased and plan to develop soon. I strung together a route of the most challenging old Moto trails to create what I believe will be the most challenging ride. They use a committee of people to determine what routes they want, based on certain sustainability requirements. The builder will show up in a month to cut in new trails and destroy many of the old Moto trails. We may lose half of the more challenging trails. I won't have quite as much fun, I don't think.

So where would we be without trails of increasing difficulty? Depends. How much increasing difficulty. Rockman and Switchblade ride trails I would avoid. Risk vs. reward. In past years, riders in Flagstaff have created trails and routes that can be described as extremely challenging. Sedona has similar challenging trails. Where would we be without them. It don't know, as I do not ride them. Many riders do not graduate or want to graduate. The learning curve to become an elite tech rider is a painful journey. Many have ended up in urgent care and then never ridden again. Many of us do not ride to see how high and far they can jump their bike or how long they can track stand and bounce their bike around a tight corner that is otherwise unrideable, like you did in your video. It is amazing to watch others do it, for sure. Many ride for the sheer pleasure it brings to be riding. We do not use Strava and time each segment. We do not stop and as our friends to film us. We do not wear lobster gear to reduce injuries from tumbling off of boulders. We ride. We take in the beauty of the outdoors.

As a trail builder, I ride with an eye on the current trail condition. Does it need to have overgrown brush cut back? Do the drains need to be cleaned out to help water run off, rather than down the trail? Are loose rocks building up on the trail tread and causing riders to widen the trail to go around them? Some of those concerns must be addressed by someone or the trail deteriorates. That leads to less and less people using the trail and can lead to abandonment of the trail. You claim you have the worlds only trail that has never needed maintenance. I wish I had some of those trails around here. I have been asked to do volunteer trail work on race courses and on trails in mountain preserves. I have been told I am the most experienced person with the best skill set they have. They trust my judgment. when I remove brush to eliminate a blind corner, they know their is a reason. It might be to help riders avoid collision with other riders or equestrians or trail runners or hikers. Site lines are important. 90% of users stop and thank me or my crews. A few will stop and repeat some tired line about dumbing down a trail to make it easier. Trying to avoid lawsuits from injured users who feel that something dangerous was ignored by designers, has to be a concern. We have had more than one fatality that resulted in litigation that in my mind was frivolous. But the land manager still paid out millions. That was money that could have gone towards many new trails.

I see your point of view. I admire your skills. What is of interest to you is not of interest to me. But I do not make jokes about going out on your trails and shooting you with a paintball gun to teach you a lesson, as you have done. You were joking, I think. Others may also have been joking when they played along. But it always leads to the attitude that people like me are the enemy of people like you. You enforce that attitude. Preservation is not sanitation. Trying to prevent a 16" wide trail from becoming a 3 foot wide trail is not dumbing it down. It is merely repairing erosion ruts that cause riders to widen a trail.

I wish we could have discussed these matters intelligently without having to receive the negative reps along with comments that cannot be politely repeated here. But you created an atmosphere and a narrative of good vs. evil.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

kpdemello said:


> For another contrast, this is a local trail that I would consider to be really hard, and something that I definitely have no shot at riding clean:


FWIW, I know plenty of middle-aged weekend warriors that do quite well on that stuff. Most of those lines have been around since canti brakes and 71/73 geo and people were cleaning them back then too. :thumbsup:


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

mikesee said:


> Mostly I agree with you. It's doable for a solid rider, but that rider will be on and off their bike, and need to session a few things, unless they're either an exceptional rider and/or having a *great* day.
> 
> It is hard to get the technical nature of most trails to come through with POV, or handheld video, or even stills. The guy that made the POV you linked to actually included this with his YouTube video:
> 
> _"There is a lot to Moore Fun and especially a lot of really difficult climbing sections that I missed in the final cut. "_


For me, it isn't necessarily the technicality of MF that gets me....it's typically my struggling cardio, shaky legs & spiking heart rate when I arrive at certain features  At that point, some sessioning is a welcome reprieve!


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

jncarpenter said:


> For me, it isn't necessarily the technicality of MF that gets me....it's typically my struggling cardio, shaky legs & spiking heart rate when I arrive at certain features  At that point, some sessioning is a welcome reprieve!


One of my favorite trails that is now off-limits here is the opposite. You rode some nice flowy stuff for a bit, suddenly you were either clinging to a washed-out off-camber descent, or blowing up trying to climb a steep and narrow spine, or negotiating (my favorite move, for which I was about 33% good) a stump that had washed into a ditch, then you were back to enjoying the scenery in a short respite before the next ravine, suspended log, creek exit step-up, or switchback climb. The nice meandering (albeit brief) flow sections between strenuous full-body moves made it quite enjoyable. The faster you went, though, the shorter the "relaxing" interval. I'm waiting for someone to design something similar that's legal (or just re-open the old one).

-F


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

jncarpenter said:


> For me, it isn't necessarily the technicality of MF that gets me....it's typically my struggling cardio, shaky legs & spiking heart rate when I arrive at certain features  At that point, some sessioning is a welcome reprieve!


Totally agreed. It used to be the opposite -- back when I was paid to pedal -- but these days I'm right there witchya.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

I have read every word in this thread...

I think we should give BorisBadenov and Switchblade2 some Certificates of Participation, a nice ribbon they can pin on their shirts and a shiny Trophy for all their hard work and for sharing their narcissistic views.

Perhaps then they will go back to building their epic trails for the 999 out 1000 and leave the rest of the trails to the people who enjoy riding them as they find them.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mileslong said:


> I have read every word in this thread...
> 
> I think we should give BorisBadenov and Switchblade2 some Certificates of Participation, a nice ribbon they can pin on their shirts and a shiny Trophy for all their hard work and for sharing their narcissistic views.
> 
> Perhaps then they will go back to building their epic trails for the 999 out 1000 and leave the rest of the trails to the people who enjoy riding them as they find them.


And making condescending remarks and personal attacks is obviously the best way to achieve your goal here, right?

If you did actually read every word, you'd know that Switchblade and I have never done preventative or restorative work on Moore Fun, and have no plans to do so. We also admire the riders who enjoy the particular challenges the trail presents. Our hope has been to educate people like you, who are extraordinarily judgmental towards stewards of the trails and consider them your mortal enemy. It often isn't until trails are lost or permanently abandoned that riders like you show up asking for someone to go out and restore a trail to a point is can be ridden again and enjoyed.

I recall riding the Natchez Trace Trail in Central Tennessee years ago, after reading a review about it in Dirt Rag. Only they were unable to warn me that a recent hurricane had dropped thousands of trees across the trail. I'd dismount my bike every 100 feet and carry it around (not over) the fallen trees because they were so large, it was impossible to carry the bike over the tree and stay on the trail. This led to walking in marsh and sinking several inches into the muck. A 3 hour ride became a 6 hour ordeal that ended well after dark with many ticks hitching a ride on my neck.

I rode that trail as it was, as I found it, but it was far from enjoyable. It took a crew of sawyers several months to clear all the fallen trees.

There are two ways to achieve the goal of controlling what trail work gets done of trails you currently ride. Get involved in the decision making process, or take the lazy route and post more condescending remarks on this Internet forum.


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## LittleBitey (Nov 10, 2012)

Boris Badenov said:


> I recall riding the Natchez Trace Trail in Central Tennessee years ago, after reading a review about it in Dirt Rag. Only they were unable to warn me that a recent hurricane had dropped thousands of trees across the trail. I'd dismount my bike every 100 feet and carry it around (not over) the fallen trees because they were so large, it was impossible to carry the bike over the tree and stay on the trail. This led to walking in marsh and sinking several inches into the muck. A 3 hour ride became a 6 hour ordeal that ended well after dark with many ticks hitching a ride on my neck.
> 
> I rode that trail as it was, as I found it, but it was far from enjoyable. It took a crew of sawyers several months to clear all the fallen trees.
> 
> There are two ways to achieve the goal of controlling what trail work gets done of trails you currently ride. Get involved in the decision making process, or take the lazy route and post more condescending remarks on this Internet forum.


Removing fallen trees from a storm vs. embedded rocks is apples vs. oranges.


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## Lawson Raider (Jul 24, 2006)

stevland said:


> It's odd that as these changes happen to trails no one seems to know who is responsible. Same goes for bad behavior on trails and at trailheads that loses us access. More self-policing needs to be part of the solution
> View attachment 1166569


The good old blanket party - I knew a guy in basic who was the honoree of a blanket party in the next room from me - of course, it was all hush hush the following day.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> removing hazards that could cause serious injury to lesser skilled riders.


What exactly would differentiate between what you deem a 'hazard' and what other, perhaps more experienced and technically savvy riders, might simply see as a 'challenging feature'?


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> ....and removing hazards that could cause serious injury to lesser skilled riders.


This is joke, yes?


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

This thread has devolved.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> slap that's a good question, and deserves an answer. If I deem the hazard a spot someone is going to eventually get injured it might get improved.


Well, shoot, I wish you'd have been here to cut that tree down that I hit. There was another one that a buddy got a debilitating spinal injury on. He'll be in therapy for months. If only you'd been here to save us from all these trees...

Please stop.

-F


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Switchblade2 said:


> Fleas I expected someone like you to post a reply to my answer. I am only trying to give you 1%'ers an understanding as to who you are trying to talk out of making trails a better user experience for the majority of riders.
> 
> Can you please post the names of the two most popular trails you personally built that thousands of lesser skilled riders then YOU ride each year. If you built two trails that riders with greater skills than you built that would also be cool. Please post YouTube videos of both of those trails so we can get an idea as to what you have contributed to the mountain bike community.
> 
> I will have a lot more respect for you when I see your hard work to make some awesome trails by yourself.


This is what cost Louis C.K. his career.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

You guys should ride with TD on a TD trail before making judgements about what he finds to be challenging. Most of your assumptions are wrong. He's baiting you because you are playing right into the stereotypes.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Switchblade2 said:


> If I deem the hazard a spot someone is going to eventually get injured it might get improved.


Please don't "improve" my trails, the technical difficulty is what keeps them fun.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mileslong said:


> I get it now!
> 
> YOU are the Almighty!
> 
> ...


Actually, you don't get it, haven't ever got it, and probably will never get it.

Almighty is a strong word, but I have denied the evidence for far too long. Perhaps you should address me as Lord Badenov.

I hereby declare that you are no longer entitled to injure yourself riding on poorly maintained trails.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

A good friend of mine named Les called and wanted me to come out and ride Moore with him but I refused!

I just didn't want to do Moore with Les!


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## The Yetti (Dec 22, 2005)

richwolf said:


> A good friend of mine named Les called and wanted me to come out and ride Moore with him but I refused!
> 
> I just didn't want to do Moore with Les!


I groaned when I read this, but as a Dad, I greatly appreciate it!


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

That's why, if you can advocate for them, stacked loop systems are the answer. Don't bother with the outer, technical trails if you don't have the skills or afraid of getting hurt. The Kokopelli system seems like it was mostly laid out with this in mind.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> .
> 
> Can you please post the names of the two most popular trails you personally built that thousands of lesser skilled riders then YOU ride each year. If you built two trails that riders with greater skills than you built that would also be cool. Please post YouTube videos of both of those trails so we can get an idea as to what you have contributed to the mountain bike community.
> 
> I will have a lot more respect for you when I see your hard work to make some awesome trails by yourself.


Vietnam trails in Milford MA and Lowell-Dracut SF in Lowell Ma are a couple of the local systems I've worked on that are wildly popular with all levels of riders, both far better and not as experienced as myself. Both incorporate lots and lots of technical features with intelligent go-arounds incorporated. Not sure about Nam, but I know that at least one rider died recently at LDT. We also lost a guy lost year at another very popular system in that area built by the same crew and in the same style (though I haven't had a chance to lend a hand there yet, my dad and many good friends are part of the core building crew).

I'm also no stranger to building pumptracks and flow-type trail, with an emphasis on giving kids, beginners and experts a different kinds of place to play and progress. The one I've been working on for our town for a few years now is a hit with everyone from 3 year olds on balance bikes to no-joke BMX rippers.

Around here, it seems the "1%" is actually more like 80%, or more. Though there are a million opportunities to get yourself dinged up on a ride, New England riders still love their tech. :thumbsup:


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

I've met and ridden with slapheadmofo (though he may not remember) and I can vouch for him. 

And FWIW, agree with him.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> Hey mile I went on a ride today on one of our double black trails that has been discussed many times on MTBR. The trail has a lot of differed maintenance on it so it's very challenging to ride.
> 
> After finishing the trail we came across a coulple (husband and wife) who were walking because the wife crashed and hurt her arm which she was holding. She may have a broken arm. I get it's part of the process, but if I could have fixed the trail to keep her from getting hurt, I would have felt good about that.


SMH.... fixed? You just won't get it. Maybe she shouldn't have been on one of the (4?) double blacks in Sedona? Maybe she should have picked one of the 40 other trails not rated double black? Do 50% of people that ride that double black trail break their arm? How about 10%? No, then I think it's probably fine as-is thanks....

I broke my scapula this last summer riding, I didn't expect the trail crew to change the trail because of it, that's nuts.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> ...After finishing the trail we came across a coulple (husband and wife) who were walking because the wife crashed and hurt her arm which she was holding. She may have a broken arm. I get it's part of the process, but if I could have fixed the trail to keep her from getting hurt, I would have felt good about that.


So what's your ultimate mission here - to make mountain biking an entirely risk free sport for anyone, of any skill level? To remove all sense of individual risk assessment and personal responsibility?


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

We've got some just like you down here, just can't seem to get it through their head that there's other, less technically challenging trails for a reason, if you want to ride the more difficult trails, then you have to earn that right by bringing your skill level up to that of the trail. Don't understand WTF you people just can't get it, but honestly I actually can, as said, you're part of that huge section of society who believes in giving out participation medals and telling everyone how fantastic they did, no mater if they actually did try or not 

Sadly when I try to give you the rep you deserve, it tells me I must spread some around :skep:



Switchblade2 said:


> Smith my posts on this thread is to let the OP know that the improvements on Moore Fun will continue by riders that are looking for a better user experience. Posting a thread asking riders to stop doing improvements is not going to stop improvements. It's a waste of time trying to keep Boris from doing improvements to trails he enjoys riding. I am sure it is the same for other experienced trail builders. You probably aren't a PASSIONATE trailbuilder, so you wouldn't understand the PROCESS.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Switchblade2 said:


> Hey mile I went on a ride today on one of our double black trails that has been discussed many times on MTBR. The trail has a lot of differed maintenance on it so it's very challenging to ride.
> 
> After finishing the trail we came across a coulple (husband and wife) who were walking because the wife crashed and hurt her arm which she was holding. She may have a broken arm. I get it's part of the process, but if I could have fixed the trail to keep her from getting hurt, I would have felt good about that.


How do you think you are? Seriously, do have some sort of Jesus complex, like you can go around fixing things and people? Are really just the original McGiver?

And how do you know she was hurt by the trail? Maybe her husband "fixed" her bike when she didn't want it "fixed'? Maybe some clueless and skilless previous rider put a rock on the blind side of a feature she has cleaned hundreds of times only to find somebody "fixed " that feature? Maybe she was riding the wrong trail for her skill level?

All of that is irrelevant, YOU do not have the right to alter trails in the name of improvement!

You want to feel good about fixing something, seek out people ( soup kitchens, animal shelters etc) who actually do want help or need volunteers and do your good deeds there instead of continuing to inflame those who are not in need of being "fixed".


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

It seems at least a couple people are confusing sanitation with improvements. Drainage maintenance, brushing and armoring are not sanitation. Cheater stones, relocations to avoid technical difficulty and sally lines are not improvements. 

It seems pretty simple.


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## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

radair said:


> It seems at least a couple people are confusing sanitation with improvements. Drainage maintenance, brushing and armoring are not sanitation. Cheater stones, relocations to avoid technical difficulty and sally lines are not improvements.
> 
> It seems pretty simple.


This is exactly what I was thinking while reading this thread. Sounds like everyone is arguing over two different things?


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> Smith my posts on this thread is to let the OP know that the improvements on Moore Fun will continue by riders that are looking for a better user experience.


No, your posts on here go well beyond that to illustrate your general philosophy about how _you_ think the trail experience should be for other people, and that _you_ feel you have the right to alter that experience, even on trails you didn't have a hand in building. And frankly, I think that's bullshit.



> ... You probably aren't a PASSIONATE trailbuilder, so you wouldn't understand the PROCESS.


Please - altering other people's work without permission, and removing features that were deliberately integrated into the design because _you_ think they may be hazardous to people of lesser ability, has nothing to do with "being a passionate trailbuilder." As has been abundantly pointed out in this thread, you are confusing sanitization with "improvements." They aren't the same thing.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

LyNx said:


> We've got some just like you down here, just can't seem to get it through their head that there's other, less technically challenging trails for a reason, if you want to ride the more difficult trails, then you have to earn that right by bringing your skill level up to that of the trail. Don't understand WTF you people just can't get it, but honestly I actually can, as said, you're part of that huge section of society who believes in giving out participation medals and telling everyone how fantastic they did, no mater if they actually did try or not
> 
> Sadly when I try to give you the rep you deserve, it tells me I must spread some around :skep:


I suppose you're just going to give me another negative rep, but I'll try to address your concerns.

You seem to think you know what is best, as well. Right? It seems obvious to you. If a trail is unrideable, improve your skills until you can ride it. So what do you think I am doing to the trails I work on? Did you ask me, even once? Nope. You just sort of figured it out somehow and judged it to be wrong.

What I've been doing, since 1996, is a variety of trail related work. I've volunteered with the Forest Service and helped construct new trail. I've been judged to be good at that and then hired to run trail crews to construct new trail and to do maintenance and restoration work on existing trails. I was hired to run crews from a conservation corps. I went out on my own time and walked government lands and came up with a route I felt would make a great trail. I sold the idea to a land manager and then designed the trail and had my crews construct it. State championship mountain bike races were held on that trail. I've done over 4000 hours of trail work. Much of that is brush work. I remove fallen trees blocking the trail. I improve drains my crews of past crews have installed, by flushing out sediments that block water runoff. I make repairs to the trails where rain ruts have formed and riders have begun widening the trails by going left or right of the ruts. I kick loose rocks off the trail. I look for hazards, like poor site lines and blind corners, and remove or thin trees and brush that are not on the trail, but are blocking the view of oncoming trail users. The reason for this is the Forest Service has said that even one lawsuit from an injured rider can result in a trail being changed into a one-way trail. One preserve I now do work for is negotiating a settlement with a mother whose son died in the preserve, and her attorney accused the preserve, and the city with negligence. I do not believe they were, but they are about to pay out $1.5 million to the family. A different land manager told me the National Park monument paid out $3.5 million to a biker who crashed while riding over a damaged cattle guard, that his attorney proved caused his severe injuries. It only required a simple and inexpensive repair, but the park had failed to notice the damage.

There is additional trail improvements that get done that are what you would call sanitizing. Some are done to make the trail more sustainable, rather than simply maintainable. Some are done for flow. Some are done to return a trail to where it was originally. Some are slight reroutes, after years of use and erosion. Some trail work is altering a trail originally made for only hiking, and then opened up to multi-use. Steps were removed and the trail was made more bike friendly.

But the work that gets the most number of riders fired up is the work that makes a trail easier to ride. I've also been a part of that type of work. The Forest Service redesigned a local trail as part of a corridor that runs the length of the state, over 800 miles. That changed the way they viewed a particular trail that was somewhat legendary, sort of like Moore Fun. It was not rideable by anyone, but it could be challenged and perhaps on a good day, a rider could clean all but 6 or 7 sections of the 3.5 mile trail. The user traffic had gradually fallen off over the years to maybe a few dozen, or maybe a 100 or so riders a season. Plus some hikers. Runners had abandoned it and so did equestrians. My crews went in and made a pass over it and turned it into a trail that a skilled rider could ride from end to end. At the time of completion, an intermediate rider had a good shot of cleaning the trail. Five years later, that changed and it was an expert level trail again. But for those few years, the use returned. Over 4000 riders a season used the trail as a connector to other more challenging trails. The reason it all made sense was that riders of all levels had abandoned the trail and were using a forest road to bypass the trail. I'm talking about expert and pro level riders. Nobody enjoyed walking their bike long distances on one of the first trails out of the parking lot.

I'd post some before and after pictures but photo bucket is refusing to allow me to copy my picture albums.

My point is you are quick to judge what you know little about. The specifics matter. And you make accusations as if you think I am a rider with poor skills, or maybe I am trying to dumb down a trail so I can take my wife on it. I've heard that one many times. Actually, I can ride fairly well. I've outridden many of my critics. My wife rides competes in the professional mountain biking class and has never finished a race off the podium. But we do not consider ourselves huge risk takers. What some riders have posted here from trails in Georgia and Pennsylvania, would be considered beginner or intermediate trails in Sedona. Some of these trails regularly send riders to urgent care. Most of them are never changed, altered, or improved. The challenge was a designed feature. The parts that get changed on other trails are mostly cosmetic changes. Things like cutting brush back and addressing erosion ruts. Sometimes you will see rocks stacked to help riders get up on very large ledges. Again, pictures would help explain the work done.

I defend the work. It has helped keep trails open and well used and enjoyed by riders of all skill levels. Your perceptions seem to be inaccurate. But that is ok. My main beef with this thread was the joking about assaulting people who are out doing trail work. That concerns me because someone will take that joke and go too far.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Smithhammer said:


> No, your posts on here go well beyond that to illustrate your general philosophy about how _you_ think the trail experience should be for other people, and that _you_ feel you have the right to alter that experience, even on trails you didn't have a hand in building. And frankly, I think that's bullshit.
> 
> Please - altering other people's work without permission, and removing features that were deliberately integrated into the design because _you_ think they may be hazardous to people of lesser ability, has nothing to do with "being a passionate trailbuilder." As has been abundantly pointed out in this thread, you are confusing sanitization with "improvements." They aren't the same thing.


I have direct knowledge of SB2s work on trails, have ridden them, have ridden with them. Heck, I remember on one trail we reached the "end", broke out tools and started making more trail. To say you are way off base here is an understatement, based on his work.


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## mbmtb (Nov 28, 2013)

Boris Badenov said:


> I suppose you're just going to give me another negative rep, but I'll try to address your concerns.
> 
> You seem to think you know what is best, as well. Right? It seems obvious to you. If a trail is unrideable, improve your skills until you can ride it. So what do you think I am doing to the trails I work on? Did you ask me, even once? Nope. You just sort of figured it out somehow and judged it to be wrong.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.

But what many of us have seen in other areas is that there are few challenging trails, and often those trails are indeed challenging-due-to-erosion.

So when people come in and sanitize, no matter if it's because the trail was actually rotten or because they are simply not good riders, it angers people. Many of us have seen that happen.

And people hurt themselves in all sorts of places--the most dangerous around here are 'fire roads', which are typically steep and eroded, so you can hit a rut at high speed.

It's a different topic, but I'm curious about recreational liability statutes in AZ. In CA, they are very very strong in favor of the land manager.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mbmtb said:


> Excellent post.
> 
> But what many of us have seen in other areas is that there are few challenging trails, and often those trails are indeed challenging-due-to-erosion.
> 
> ...


mbmtb,

It's important people clearly define their concerns, so there is no misunderstanding. That allows people like me to better address their concerns. Yes, riders go down hard on fire roads. A great point to make. I myself was riding over 20mph down a familiar trail on the foothills near Bose, Idaho, and was faced with a split-second decision. The winter snow melt had created a long and deep rut of the hillside. I quickly saw that it paralleled the trail, but then crossed the trail at perhaps a 60 degree angle. I had to make a quick decision. Jump the rut, or ride off trail and attempt to ride around it. I made the jump, but then saw that the rut changed directions and came back into my path. Before I could react, my front wheel dropped maybe 14 inches into the rut and augured in. That sent my '96 pro-flex and me upward and forward, in a cartwheeling fashion, maybe 20 feet before bouncing further down the trail. I could hear a carbon fiber bar-end breaking, only it didn't. That was my collarbone. My friend helped me assess my injuries. My right ankle felt broken but was just painful. I did manage to ride a mile to a nearby pave road and another 5 miles home before going to urgent care.

That is a case of an expert rider failing to ride a familiar trail, while being alert to unexpected changes caused by water run-off. The land manager did nothing wrong. He may have sent crews out later in the spring to re-establish the tread.

I have attended a national trail symposium, where one particular seminar involved liability for injuries to riders. The most common one is wooden bridges poorly built or poorly maintained. Some well-intentioned builders, fail to run their wood slats perpendicular to the trail. When the wood gets older, some splintering makes the gaps between boards widen to the point a front tire could fall into the crack. That has resulted in serious injuries and expensive litigation. It doesn't matter what riders on this forum say about personal risk and personal responsibility. They don't decide. Lawyers do. And land managers pay out, using millions that could have doubled the number of miles of new trails that we all ask for, but don't get.

How about posting a sign, warning people of dangerous trail challenges? It turns out that is a terrible idea in most cases. It is seen as an admission of dangerous trail designed by land managers. It's a very delicate balance. When normally responsible expert riders (not just beginners) end up with $200,000 in medical bills, they often forget about that post they made on MTBR telling other riders they have to take responsibility for themselves and the risks of their sport. Suddenly they find themselves sitting down with a lawyer and discussing how to recover some of those expenses from land managers, rather than to declare bankruptcy or sell their home.

It's not as simple as accusing some of us of dumbing down trails for sub-experts. I think that happens to some extent, but Switchblade and I have never been sub-experts and we tend to ride with expert riders, almost exclusively. Our work, and perhaps it is selfish to some extent, it mostly done to create a great experience for the most advanced riders. People like Jayem, and Rockman, and even Mikesee. There is an endless supply of beginner trails and intermediate trails. We cater to an exclusive crowd, mostly. It doesn't mean we don't occasionally improve intermediate level connector trails to help keep those level of riders happy and also keep them off of the black diamond trails. We even do work on downhiller friendly trails in order to keep them happy and keep them from tearing up some easily damaged connector trails that are not intended for them. It's a bit complicated.

The bottom line is the number of trails people get to choose from in our neck of the woods, has increased substantially. They have a lot more choices for how they want to challenge themselves and it allows them more solitude, spreading users out. It also results in less conflicts. It is a strategy that has benefitted all riders, whether they know it or not.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Jayem said:


> I have direct knowledge of SB2s work on trails, have ridden them, have ridden with them. Heck, I remember on one trail we reached the "end", broke out tools and started making more trail. To say you are way off base here is an understatement, based on his work.


My statement is based entirely on his comments, and nothing else. And based solely on his comments, I don't think my responses are off base, respectfully. But thanks for the added perspective.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Smithhammer said:


> Please - altering other people's work without permission, and removing features that were deliberately integrated into the design because _you_ think they may be hazardous to people of lesser ability, has nothing to do with "being a passionate trailbuilder." As has been abundantly pointed out in this thread, you are confusing sanitization with "improvements." They aren't the same thing.











Other persons work? Permission? Removing features deliberately integrated into design? Hazardous to people of lesser ability? Sanitation vs. improvements?

Other persons work often means Mother Nature. At some point in history, perhaps the trail was built by hand or machine by volunteers or a land mangers crew or by mountain bikers. In Sedona, for instance, many, if not most, of the trails were built by users, somewhat outside of the required process. That is for a reason. Some land managers interpret the many rules and laws for building trails in such a way that few, if any trails are ever built. One pile of rusty soup cans is interpreted as an archeological site. Years of promises and planning all comes to a grinding halt because of some camper who left a pile of garbage in the woods. Even when it is not 50+ years old, I've worked with land managers who invent an arbitrary designation they refer to as historic, for something they find that does not meet the requirements to be called an archeological site.

I still have the newspaper article profiling the amazing individuals who built the first trails in Bend, Oregon. They simply found routes and purchased tools and went out and constructed the trails. Over the years, they were all adopted into the Forest Service system of trails and maintained and preserved and even improved, with reroutes.

Features many of us enjoy, or some of us alter, are rarely part of any original design. They are almost always a result of soil gradually disappearing from the trail tread and exposing new rocks and causing existing rocks to go from being barely visible to being hazards, or pedal catchers. They gradually change the character of the trail from what it was originally. Trail restoration often looks a lot like what you would call sanitation. It requires either finding a borrow pit to gather lots of soil to return to the original trail tread, or it requires removing obstructing rocks to get the lower surface to become similar to what the original trail tread was.

Hazards to people of lesser ability is an assumption. I know Switchblade and I know many riders who ride trails he created and maintains. The trails were never made for lesser riders and lesser riders rarely use them. Visit Sedona and see for yourself. I've joined some of Sedona's better local riders and they were among the most skilled riders I've seen, other than professional trials riders like Hans Rey. When you've been riding for more than two decades, you tend to not ride with lesser riders (no offense). They don't factor into your mindset to any great degree. Your goal is to try your best to keep the trails at the same level they were first built to. But that is impossible, we all know that. They are always going to get more difficult than they started off, even Moore Fun. There is never going to be the time or manpower to maintain our trails. We do what we can to prevent them from being abandoned.

I am not afraid of the word sanitation. Others define it differently than I would. Removing cactus from creeping into the trail to where it cuts you up is sanitation to me, but I do it regularly. I watched a prison crew rake loose rocks off a trail a week ago and that is sanitation I approve of. To me, almost anything that changes the character of the trail, even for the better, even when it is met with universal approval, is still sanitation. Maybe that is why I defend it.

I think that many people commenting here, do not have a good variety of trails that include challenging design features. In most of Arizona, there is no shortage of challenging rides, so we don't make much effort to alter them, or restore them. The land managers do. They don't do it as often as they should, so the trails are always filled with lots of loose rocks, large and small, and water runs down them for hundreds of feet, removing what little soil remains in the bed of the tread, making it more rocky. My suggestion has always been b-lines. But expert riders feel they are an insult and often cover them up. But in general, there seems to be a good balance of trail challenges. And I don't know where you ride, but land managers around here, are years behind doing preventative trail maintenance.

Oh, that picture I posted is something to be concerned about. You don't want to see those. They can lead to closures and one-way trail designation and lawsuits. It should never come to that. Land managers sometimes let us down and fail to do their assigned work. Think about volunteering to give them a hand.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Boris Badenov said:


> Other persons work? Permission? Removing features deliberately integrated into design? Hazardous to people of lesser ability? Sanitation vs. improvements?
> 
> etc, etc, etc....
> 
> To me, almost anything that changes the character of the trail, even for the better, even when it is met with universal approval, is still sanitation. Maybe that is why I defend it.


I think you're completely talking around my point, which is simple:

If someone designs a trail with certain features, and someone else comes in and removes/alters such features because a) they don't have the skills to ride it, or b) they are concerned that "someone else of lesser ability might get hurt," then I oppose it. I'm not going to engage in semantic arguments about "sanitization" versus "improvements" - I think most of us know the difference, and it's pretty clear. Unless, of course, you are engaging in the former while trying to portray it as the latter, and need to come up with an elaborate rationalization for your actions.

And I'm not talking about natural erosion or Mother Nature here.



> .....I think that many people commenting here, do not have a good variety of trails that include challenging design features.


I think that's a huge assumption.



> Oh, that picture I posted is something to be concerned about. You don't want to see those. They can lead to closures and one-way trail designation and lawsuits. It should never come to that. Land managers sometimes let us down and fail to do their assigned work. Think about volunteering to give them a hand.


On this at least, we agree. And I _do_ volunteer for trail work. And I get involved in local policy/land management discussions and input. I also support our local trail building/advocacy non-profit.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Holy crap you people don't even live in the same state and you're arguing about hypothetical changes to trails you'll never even ride... get a grip


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Boris Badenov said:


> View attachment 1171626
> 
> 
> Oh, that picture I posted is something to be concerned about. You don't want to see those. They can lead to closures and one-way trail designation and lawsuits. It should never come to that. Land managers sometimes let us down and fail to do their assigned work.


Hangover has a sign similar to this as does/did Captain Ahab in Moab specifically stating how many deaths have occurred and advising that you walk your bike (I've heard the sign has been removed). I know I'm in the minority when it comes to personal responsibility but mountain biking is an inherently dangerous sport and if you get hurt, 99% of it is the riders fault. You shouldn't even be allowed to sue unless there's extenuating circumstances like a man-made structure in bike park you PAID to ride not being maintained. Of you get hurt on Hi-Line (which I have) or Hangover or National, it's your fault no matter what is going on with the trail.

Oh and I've ridden with Hans Rey a couple times on Crank Bros group rides in Laguna Beach where he lives. One of the days when we were stopped, he was bitching about "trail maintenance" that had been done on a double black trail to make it easier for the "less talented" (my word as he used one that starts with a P and can be used when refferring to cats)


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

kpdemello said:


> Holy crap you people don't even live in the same state and you're arguing about hypothetical changes to trails you'll never even ride... get a grip


I'm not sure what living in the same state has to do with it. I've lived in CA, WA, AZ, ID, AK and ridden in most states that neighbor those states. The principle of the thing is what is up for discussion here - it's not state-specific.



k2rider1964 said:


> ....I know I'm in the minority when it comes to personal responsibility but mountain biking is an inherently dangerous sport and if you get hurt, 99% of it is the riders fault.


This. If you come across a feature that you don't feel comfortable riding, you walk it - you don't alter it.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

is there really anything to be said, worthwhile, that hasn't been said?


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Smithhammer said:


> If someone designs a trail with certain features, and someone else comes in and removes/alters such features because a) they don't have the skills to ride it, or b) they are concerned that "someone else of lesser ability might get hurt," then I oppose it.


Most of our trails have not been designed. Very few are. Only new ones. Most were hiking trails that were redesigned as multi-use trails, meaning they were not designed for mountain bikers. They merely allow mountain bikers on them. The corners have too tight of a radius for the speed of bikes and the result is washboard. Some still have steps built into them. Most have terrible site lines and blind corners.

What you seem to be discussing is a small number of trails designed by riders with permission of land managers. I know of no trail like that. I have seen trails built by crews without much presence of land managers during construction, and nobody on the crew was a rider. They build trails that are almost immediately altered by riders. I mostly see professional trail builders in my area. They usually start off building poor trails designed for beginners. After a few years, they learn what advanced riders want and try to add some challenging features. It's usually hit and miss. When they miss, I sometimes see riders making slight alterations.

But I have done trail improvements you would not like. I've removed tree roots that have broken loose and are flopping around as bikes roll over them. I've modified step sections to be somewhat ramped, that allow advanced riders a reasonable chance to ride a section. None of it was designed. It evolved into a series of steps, natural steps. I've removed pedal catchers. I've beat down sharp edged rocks with a 12 pound sledge. I always remove low hanging tree limbs and brush growing onto the trail. I've removed boulders weighing over 400 pounds. I've opened up pinch points where riders stalled out. If it requires track standing and hopping to clean it, I will try to alter it for people who want to ride through. As an expert rider, if I have to walk it, one of two things happens. I don't return to that trail unless I'm on a hike or a trail run, or I make it so it is rideable by me. I am the standard. I don't have a board of directors or a committee to discuss or vote on what option is best. There is going to be someone who is not happy. There is going to be a lot more people who are very happy. For the last 21 years, this has worked out quite well. Several abandoned trails were re-established. Some very seldom ridden trails became popular. Riders who complained the first time they rode the altered trails, eventually admitted the work was beneficial and they approved of it.

If I had to guess, there is a local rider who has been riding Moore Fun for years and he use to enjoy it and use to mostly ride it, and now he believes it has degraded just enough to force him off his bike much too often. He has other trail options and he rides other trails. But he wants to ride Moore Fun and has altered it to some degree to make it More Fun, for him. nothing anyone says or does here will make him walk his bike on sections he can move a couple rocks in order to ride.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Here is a series of pictures I took of a section of the Arizona Trail that my crew rerouted in some steep and rocky terrain. The previous trail dropped down into a canyon, then after about a quarter mile, it climbed back out. Both of those ends had grades over 20%, and were not rideable going uphill. They also got badly rutted from rains and from mule traffic.

I stopped along the bottom one year, after flatting. I sat there and wondered what it would take to reroute the trail so riders could have a blast riding down and up the trail from the canyon floor. I made a proposal to the primary land manager, the National Park Service, and asked them for about $25k to run two crews for 5-7 weeks. They liked the idea. I then got State Trust Lands to give their blessing on the project that also crossed over some land they managed. The U.S. Forest Service also needed to sign off and give their approval.

On day one, a lot of bosses from the Forest Service, Park Service, State Trust Lands, arrived to offer their advice on where to route the trail. My boss even showed up to tell me where retaining walls would be needed. But like most trail builders with a vision, I mostly ignored them all and created my own route and built only one retaining wall.








We used a chainsaw to cut down trees and a grip hoist to pull some stumps out of the ground.








This is the before picture of the canyon wall








This is the after picture of the trail routing next to the stone wall of the canyon








Gas powered jack hammer








The beginnings of a switchback








Big retaining wall on the downside of the switchback








A deep cut climbing turn at other end of canyon, as you begin climb out








Rock crush along edge of retaining wall








Large boulder was removed. Other large boulder was also removed.








Steep climb out before improvements








Upper switchback








Progress on lower switchback








Out of sequence before picture of switchbacks


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> What you seem to be discussing is a small number of trails designed by riders with permission of land managers. I know of no trail like that.


Wow, seriously? We've got shitloads of puprose-built trail around here, and more all the time.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> Wow, seriously? We've got shitloads of puprose-built trail around here, and more all the time.


Yeah, I can think of quite a few. And FWIW, the OP started this thread describing the namesake as exactly that.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

slapheadmofo said:


> Wow, seriously? We've got shitloads of puprose-built trail around here, and more all the time.





evasive said:


> Yeah, I can think of quite a few. And FWIW, the OP started this thread describing the namesake as exactly that.


My thoughts exactly. A lot of chest thumping going on from the Sedona trail builders that doesn't really fit the topic. You've built a lot of trail, perhaps you should start a thread highlighting your accomplishments. I would enjoy reading through it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

radair said:


> perhaps you should start a thread highlighting your accomplishments.


Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that there's no shortage of those already?


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Wow, seriously? We've got shitloads of puprose-built trail around here, and more all the time.


A couple of things; Does rider designed and purpose built mean the same thing? I don't often meet land managers who allowed riders to do design work on a new trail. The reroute I designed above would be an exception. But then improvements and sanitizing seem to get used interchangeably here.

Also, I assumed that moderators on MTBR had a little more maturity and class than the average member here. Your foul language tells me something different. How about simply saying you have several or many purpose built trails?


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

You are amazing Boris! Not only can you improve trails, you can improve vocabulary too!!


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Boris Badenov said:


> A couple of things; Does rider designed and purpose built mean the same thing? I don't often meet land managers who allowed riders to do design work on a new trail. The reroute I designed above would be an exception. But then improvements and sanitizing seem to get used interchangeably here.


A friend of mine is building a stacked loop system of ~20 miles on BLM land. Trails range from easy low grade to steep directional with lots of technical features. His design, his alignments. This isn't that unusual any more.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

This thread has run out of gas but what Boris says about rider designed trails is mostly true for Flagstaff with a couple of notable exceptions. We're trying to change that next year we will be building 8 miles of new trail. While it won't be bike specific the routing is by mountain bikers. 

New trails in Sedona as well as reroutes are being aligned by a mountain biker with a volunteer agreement with the USFS (not Switchblade). Albeit for multi-use but certainly with biking in mind. The complete reroute of Thunder Mountain trail was purpose-built to be a sustainable technical mtn biking trail. The recent reroute of Teacup was by the owner of a bike shop. The same guy also laid out Pigtail which is the only directional trail in Sedona. Bike Mag used the trail for testing on their Bible of Bike tests a couple of years ago.

The trails in Fruita and Kokopelli trails appear to me to have mostly been built with mountain biker involvement and as the primary user group. 

Boris does raise some valid points regarding sanitation versus improvement. Doubt will ever agree on exactly what that looks like but ultimately those who get to decide are the ones with their boots on the ground. It's always better with community buy-in but it doesn't always work that way.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Boris Badenov said:


> A couple of things; Does rider designed and purpose built mean the same thing? I don't often meet land managers who allowed riders to do design work on a new trail. The reroute I designed above would be an exception.


Might be the exception in AZ but this discussion is not specific to AZ. In the northeast, rider-designed & built multi-use trails are fairly common, with shiploads more in the works.



Boris Badenov said:


> But then improvements and sanitizing seem to get used interchangeably here.


Only by you, as far as I can tell. They are absolutely not the same thing as many in this thread have pointed out.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> Also, I assumed that moderators on MTBR had a little more maturity and class than the average member here. Your foul language tells me something different. How about simply saying you have several or many purpose built trails?


How about you blow it out your ass, you pompous clown?


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Notice the excessive typing in here? That's the path to raising the UPS man's kids. Bloviate, old spodes!


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Boris Badenov said:


> Does rider designed and purpose built mean the same thing? I don't often meet land managers who allowed riders to do design work on a new trail.


Rider designed and purpose built can mean the same thing. The trail system where I spend most of my time building (by my latest count I have also volunteered at 9 other trail systems around my state) is a purpose built mountain bike trail system designed and built by mountain bikers, with BLM permission and joint funding.

We work with the BLM to identify the boundaries within which we are able to build, to avoid getting too close to property boundaries and sensitive habitat etc., but, we flag the routes, and once those flagged routes are approved by BLM, we design and build every feature on the trail. We still have other constraints, like the maximum diameter of trees that we can remove, how wide we remove vegetation in the trail corridor, what the finished tread width is supposed to be. But we are often given a larger approved trail corridor width that allows us to adjust flagging and change the routing as needed to make for better drainage, more sustainable grades, or avoid other unforeseen issues that may come up.

We have a gone through the planning process with BLM and got approval on the master plan for what the trail system will look like through various phases of the build out to eventual completion. Each new trail segment that gets approved for construction falls within that larger plan, and we discuss the intended purpose (one way downhill, bi-directional), difficulty rating, and type (tech, flow etc.) for each trail. The buildout is progressing from beginner flow trails (green) through intermediate (blue), with more advanced (black diamond) under construction, and expert (double black) diamond trails flagged and approved for future construction.

BLM has been very supportive, but it's still a give and take. We don't always get everything we want, but by and large we have been able to build trails that we enjoy riding and have been very popular with the local riding community.

And our trails are 100% rider maintained. We keep vegetation cleared, drainage working as designed, fallen trees cut out etc.

The BLM Guide to Quality Trail Experience (https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/f...lines-for-a-Quality-Trail-Experience-2017.pdf) was developed as a collaboration between BLM and IMBA. The trail system I build at and a number of sections of trail I've worked on (not by all by myself by any stretch, but with a core group of MTB trail builders who I count as my friends) are featured in that document.

This is proof that there are at least some land owners/managers out there that get it and are willing to work with the MTB community. Sadly, this isn't the case everywhere.


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## ghood (Dec 26, 2011)

i just visited GJ (I live in Missoula) and rode Moore for the first time last week. Although I've been riding a while and ride quite a bit, I don't ride much on techy trails simply because my home trails are not techy, so I'm not that good at it. But damn do I love it when I'm able to visit places with trails like Moore to push me beyond my skill limits, scare the sh*t out of me, and make me a better rider. I had to dismount several times on Moore because I didn't have the skill and/or balls to ride all the cool features, and it was one of the best rides I did while I was down there. Kudos to those who built Moore and other trails like it and shame on those who would modify them to make them easier to ride. Being safe is not why I ride.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

kpdemello said:


> Holy crap you people don't even live in the same state and you're arguing about hypothetical changes to trails you'll never even ride... get a grip


you don't think people from colorado travel to arizona and vice versa? lol... I've probably ridden hi line more then a lot of the people that live/ride in arizona.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

THIS a million, bazillion times over :thumbsup:



ghood said:


> i just visited GJ (I live in Missoula) and rode Moore for the first time last week. Although I've been riding a while and ride quite a bit, I don't ride much on techy trails simply because my home trails are not techy, so I'm not that good at it. But damn do I love it when I'm able to visit places with trails like Moore to push me beyond my skill limits, scare the sh*t out of me, and make me a better rider. I had to dismount several times on Moore because I didn't have the skill and/or balls to ride all the cool features, and it was one of the best rides I did while I was down there. Kudos to those who built Moore and other trails like it and shame on those who would modify them to make them easier to ride. Being safe is not why I ride.


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

Streetdoctor said:


> you don't think people from colorado travel to arizona and vice versa? lol... I've probably ridden hi line more then a lot of the people that live/ride in arizona.


Ummmm...this.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> Fleas I expected someone like you to post a reply to my answer. I am only trying to give you 1%'ers an understanding as to who you are trying to talk out of making trails a better user experience for the majority of riders.
> 
> Can you please post the names of the two most popular trails you personally built that thousands of lesser skilled riders then YOU ride each year. If you built two trails that riders with greater skills than you built that would also be cool. Please post YouTube videos of both of those trails so we can get an idea as to what you have contributed to the mountain bike community.
> 
> I will have a lot more respect for you when I see your hard work to make some awesome trails by yourself.


This is the internet, so I usually don't get too worked up, but you almost got me to use an exclamation point.

Someone like me? Do tell. The world awaits your insight. Actually, _I_ await your insight.

BTW - thanks for not asking for more than 2. I've been sandbagging... resting on my laurels since 2012.

Hundreds of mountain bikers trek to Strongsville for opening of new trail | cleveland.com

This first trail (sorry, the vid is more boring than the article, but it is in my video library if you want to check out part of it - and please excuse all the goofy tween stuff in there - my young daughter has been using the account), the Royalview Mountain Bike Trail, which is a green trail even by nursery school standards, has resulted in several serious injuries (due to ludicrous speed), including at least 1 broken arm that I know of. But, due to the nature of the sport of mountain biking, and the fact that most everything about the sport is self-directed, nobody blamed the trail. Nobody even tried to blame the land manager for leaving too many trees in the forest.






The video shows the first ever mountain bike trail in Cleveland, OH. In all honesty, my section of trail occupies about 4 seconds of vid, but that's mostly because we have a solid volunteer core here. Something for which we are all thankful.

Also, if you want to see me riding at my limit, go to my YouTube page and check out my "Up a Creek" vid (you'll see me dab, and everything). It's one of my favorite rides I've ever done. You may also want to see my stairclimb video, just as a point of reference.

Also, please check out West Branch State Park in Ravenna, OH. The Rock Wall feature is pretty tough. Someone said it was unrideable in reverse, but guess what? Someone rode it in reverse. More than one even! <-- That "!" wasn't directed specifically at you - it was just very exciting to watch someone clean it.

I anxiously await your insightful interpretation of our work.

-F

PS - GD if this isn't some kinda epic presentation, but I felt like I had to compete with the prolific typists here.

PPS - Sorry, forgot one. I was less enthralled with this project, but it's not bad, and a lot of people like it. https://centurycycles.com/articles/...rd-singletrack-mountain-bike-trail-pg1673.htm


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

ghood said:


> Being safe is not why I ride.


Quoted for truth. This is why I go to Canada when I want to be challenged. We barely have anything technical in the U.S. and then we've got people like Boris thinking it's still not easy enough. I guess everything needs to be wheelchair accessible these days...

Sanitization does not mean "improvement." 
Maybe if it's said enough times, that idea will stick.

When trails are washed and blown out with loose debris everywhere, then yes, that should be corrected. When a trail follows the fall line for too long where water creates a huge rut and exposes roots and rocks, yes, that should be corrected.

But trails with natural rocky features that are planted firmly -- leave that stuff alone! That kind of terrain is WHY I mountain bike and don't road bike. It isn't supposed to be easy. It isn't supposed to be for everyone. If you don't have the skills or the mental commitment to ride the line -- WALK. Nobody is forcing anybody to do this.

Finally this isn't coming from a "1%er." Where I live, I don't see people "taking their bikes for a walk" as has been implied by those in this thread in support of dumbing everything down. The vast majority is charging the gnarly stuff and hungry for more. It is the very selfish minority that assume that if they can't ride it, it's a flaw in the trail.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Switchblade2 said:


> Fleas I expected someone like you to post a reply to my answer. I am only trying to give you 1%'ers an understanding as to who you are trying to talk out of making trails a better user experience for the majority of riders.
> 
> Can you please post the names of the two most popular trails you personally built that thousands of lesser skilled riders then YOU ride each year. If you built two trails that riders with greater skills than you built that would also be cool. Please post YouTube videos of both of those trails so we can get an idea as to what you have contributed to the mountain bike community.
> 
> I will have a lot more respect for you when I see your hard work to make some awesome trails by yourself.


Who died and made you king? More importantly, do you leave the house, ever? How do you fit through the doorways with a head that big?


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## JHFWIC (Jan 10, 2013)

Switchblade2 said:


> OK I want to give an example of a section of trail I recently went out and did a trail improvement, so I could ride it uphill. Riding it downhill was easy, but over the last couple years I have had to walk this spot in the uphill direction. I am assuming 1% of the uphill riders could have still ridden this spot. Since I am not one of the 1%'ers, I decided to fix it.
> 
> The rebuild took me about 2 hours. Most of the material to do the rebuild was close by. Over the years much of the larger eroded rock pieces had been pushed down the side of the hill. I had to due some rock bar work to be able to get the lower anchor rock embedded into trail bed.
> 
> I took my bike to the construction site, so I could test my work to see I could ride that section once I completed it. I am sure the 1%'ers are going to be upset that the spot has been improved so lesser skilled riders can ride it now.


This is Crap!


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Let me put this as nicely as I can - Stop the trolling, it has been reported, it is against forum rules to be this much of an a44hole, go back to the e-bike forum where you belong, they appreciate your "make everything easy" mentality 



Switchblade2 said:


> cookie could you please post a video of one of your gnarly stuff trails that you personally built so we can witness you or others charging your masterpiece.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

LyNx said:


> Let me put this as nicely as I can - Stop the trolling, it has been reported, it is against forum rules to be this much of an a44hole, go back to the e-bike forum where you belong, they appreciate your "make everything easy" mentality


I had the same thought, they are PASSIONATE E-bike trail builders, and that's OK if they stay where they are wanted and allowed.

I am sorry I contributed to the feeding of the trolls.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Switchblade2 said:


> cookie could you please post a video of one of your gnarly stuff trails that you personally built so we can witness you or others charging your masterpiece.


Does one have to be a licensed trailbuilder to comment these days? For the record, I have built one trail; and it was decidedly for us "1%ers." Something tells me you wouldn't have liked it; your e-bike may have stalled-out on some of the uphill, 8-foot-high skinnies. (You asked for it).

Otherwise, I regularly work on a local trail closest to my house; clearing clogged drainage channels, clearing fallen trees, etc. I do this without being paid, nor am I recognized for it. But if somebody doesn't do it, it won't get done. That's all I have time for, but I do what I can. At a later stage in life, I hope to be able to participate in a whole trail design.

Let me know when you're ready to have a mature conversation.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> ...I am ass[uming]....


Quoted for posterity.

-F


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> Fleas after watching your video *I doubt Boris or I would do any trail improvements to that trail. It appears to be a well routed beginner/intermediate trail* with lots of grade reversals to keep fast moving water off the trail during heavy rainy periods. The vegetation next to the trail looks to be trimmed back nicely,
> 
> Since you didn't build the whole trail you really don't qualify as someone who is PASSIONATE about creating new trails for your fellow mountain bikers. Thanks for posting.


Yeahbut...

You call that easy (Mr. 1.5%-er) but someone broke their arm there! Why did this hafta happen? Obviously, someone shoulda foreseen the dangers and fixed it. Just because you think a trail is easy doesn't mean everyone thinks it's easy. Sheesh. Quit building such hard trails. You're alienating 98.5% of all the newbs... and damaging their self confidence.

We have a saying here: If you want a prize for building trails, you shouldn't be building trails.
Congratulations on being "most passionate", whatever that means.

-F


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> Since you didn't build the whole trail you really don't qualify as someone who is PASSIONATE about creating new trails for your fellow mountain bikers. Thanks for posting.


\

Wow, you're a real piece of work aren't ya?
No wonder you have to build all by yourself.


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## NorCalTaz (Nov 12, 2013)

If I ever get out to Colorado I definitely would like to ride it. I am heading into my 5th year of being an avid MTB'er and discovered this last year that conquering a tough technical climb has upped my game and results in a big f*ck Ya! What I have found that is interesting is that by working on technical climbs, I am much better at doing technical sections downhill.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> ...Since you didn't build the whole trail you really don't qualify as someone who is PASSIONATE about creating new trails for your fellow mountain bikers. Thanks for posting.


Wow, keep talkin' sport, you're just digging your hole even deeper.

Given your latest self-important bloviations in this thread, I'd say the only way my comments above are "way off base" is that they are lot more diplomatic than they probably should have been.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

cookieMonster said:


> I regularly work on a local trail closest to my house; clearing clogged drainage channels, clearing fallen trees, etc. I do this without being paid, nor am I recognized for it. But if somebody doesn't do it, it won't get done. That's all I have time for, but I do what I can. At a later stage in life, I hope to be able to participate in a whole trail design.
> 
> Let me know when you're ready to have a mature conversation.


A mature conversation with someone who thinks trails in Sedona and Flagstaff are wheelchair accessible?

I believe you are the quintessential poster boy for everything that went wrong with the sport of mountain biking, with Mikesee coming in a close second. We use to go ride our rigid bikes on trails to enjoy the outdoors and the experience of traveling through it on our bikes. We fell in love with the sport. We traveled to places like Moab, the Mecca of mountain biking, to meet others who shared our passion. We read mountain bike magazines for stories about great places to ride our bikes and for bike reviews and tips on repairing and maintaining our bikes. We made friends with other riders.

Then it started to change. Not from the racing, but from people wanting to make it more extreme. They couldn't find joy being out riding, unless they were jumping off something and riding downhill at high speeds. MBA became a magazine with almost every picture being of a bike in mid-air, because that sold magazines. ESPN started holding X-Games. People became obsessed with filming themselves and posting those videos. Extreme riding demanded an extreme music soundtrack. People like you actually brag about their dark metal music and riding their fully rigid bike at 50mph on trails. People like Mikesee will spend half or more of a ride stopping his riding friends on the trail and asking them to film him, over and over, so he can post his videos of himself. You time yourself and try to set personal records on your rides. This is no longer mountain biking. It's a perversion of the sport. It's thunder dome. It's a cancer, a tumorous growth on the sport. It's led to your awful music, lifted trucks, tattoos, video cameras mounted on full-faced helmets, bros and dudes and skinnies and rad and you tube videos, and drugs and 8" travel 40 pound bikes, and trips to Utah to watch Red Bull Rampage crashes.

Do you really think you and Mikesee can insult and neg rep me to the point I will see our sport like you do? That will never happen. You are always going to be the fringe element. You will not be catered to. Your needs are irrelevant. You are everything that went wrong, over the years. You belong in an amusement park. A circus.

Son, (my Jack Nicholson rant) we live to ride our bikes on trails. Those trails have to be built and maintained by men with strong backs. Who's gonna do it? You and Mikesee? Switchblade and I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know; that our trail maintenance and restoration work allows passionate mountain bikers to have a great riding experience. And our existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, provides countless riders the best possible riding experience. You don't want the truth because deep down you know you are a fringe element that we could all do without. We use words like sustainable trail improvements, grade reversal drains, out slope, brushing, site lines. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent creating something. You use them as a punchline. Why should I explain myself to people who ride on the very trails I have built and maintained, and then question the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you all just said "thank you" and went on your way. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

You guys hear something?


Me neither.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Boris Badenov said:


> A mature conversation
> 
> You are always going to be the fringe element. You will not be catered to. Your needs are irrelevant. You are everything that went wrong, over the years. You belong in an amusement park. A circus.
> 
> I would rather you all just said "thank you" and went on your way. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!


The cluelessness is strong in this one. Almost as powerful as the entitlement.

Boris, if that is your real name, I say this in the most sincere way possible: Take off the blinders -- there's a whole world out there waiting to be discovered. It's almost as though you've deliberately isolated yourself from it, chosen to live in an echo chamber of your own creation.

It isn't real, and man am I thankful for that.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Boris Badenov said:


> A mature conversation with someone who thinks trails in Sedona and Flagstaff are wheelchair accessible?
> 
> I believe you are the quintessential poster boy for everything that went wrong with the sport of mountain biking, with Mikesee coming in a close second. We use to go ride our rigid bikes on trails to enjoy the outdoors and the experience of traveling through it on our bikes. We fell in love with the sport. We traveled to places like Moab, the Mecca of mountain biking, to meet others who shared our passion. We read mountain bike magazines for stories about great places to ride our bikes and for bike reviews and tips on repairing and maintaining our bikes. We made friends with other riders.
> 
> ...


That is some funny s&%t right there!! If he wasn't serious I'd give him pos rep for creativity!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> Hey mile I went on a ride today on one of our double black trails that has been discussed many times on MTBR. The trail has a lot of differed maintenance on it so it's very challenging to ride.
> 
> After finishing the trail we came across a coulple (husband and wife) who were walking because the wife crashed and hurt her arm which she was holding. She may have a broken arm. I get it's part of the process, but if I could have fixed the trail to keep her from getting hurt, I would have felt good about that.


 Fixed? Ugg, part of the problem. I fell over in a parking lot, going to fix that too. Least common denominator leaves you with a paved mup. Please stay out of new England. Wear some pads, learn some skills and HTFU.


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## endo_alley (May 28, 2013)

Be careful young Skywalker ! I sense a disturbance in the force!


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## ghood (Dec 26, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> ghood thanks for the recent write up on your riding/walking experience on Moore Fun. I am curious about how you felt about the trail when you finished it? Were you disappointed that there had been a bunch of trail improvements completed over the last couple years or would you have liked to have walked more sections, if so how many more walking sections would have made your riding experience more enjoyable?


I just thought it was an awesome trail. It was the only time I'd ridden it so I don't know specifically about recent modifications to it. I don't particularly enjoy walking sections. So I keep riding and getting better until I don't have to walk them anymore. It's a very gratifying feeling to master a section of trail I once thought was impossible after putting in the effort to improve my skills and/or fitness. It's a big part of why I love this sport.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Switchblade2 said:


> ghood I think you proved my point and I appreciate your honesty. The OP was complaining that Moore Fun has been getting DUMDED DOWN, MADE EASIER, MADE MORE SUSTAINABLE, IMPROVED FOR LESSER SKILLED RIDERS LIKE YOURSELF and low and behold you had a good time on it with no complaints at the end. Let's just ride and be grateful their guys like Boris out there making new trails and doing necessary maintenance the land manager does have the funding to do.


You're a self-serving jackhole. And your spelling could use some work, too.

You seem to have come here not with an intention of learning, but with an axe to grind. I quoted you above so that you could reference what you just wrote against my original post. Did I say that Moore is getting dumbed down? Yep. Sanitized, too.

I never once mentioned it becoming 'more sustainable' because it isn't. You're throwing that in there to serve your own selfish and deluded agenda.

I never said it was being improved for lesser skilled riders either, because it isn't. It's being sanitized by self-serving jackholes like you. There's a difference. All the difference in the world.

This will be my last contribution to this thread -- at least until you either pull your head out of your ass or some moderator deletes you. The intent of the original post had nothing to do with land managers, no matter how much you want it to be so. The post was intended to illuminate the fact that some riders aren't playing by the rules, and you've made it clear, over and over and with supporting evidence, that you're one of them.


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## ghood (Dec 26, 2011)

Just to be clear, I don't want trails to be "improved for lesser skilled riders." I certainly am grateful for trail builders. I don't know mikesee but know of him from the forums and respect his opinion about what has been happening on Moore. If someone modified my home trails in an attempt to sanitize or dumb them down I'd be pissed too. And 
Moore appears to me to be a masterfully designed and built trail that needs nothing to improve it. I'd agree with the OP that folks need to leave it as it was originally built and ride other, easier stuff if that's their preference. Progression is what keeps riding alive for me. If I can ride a trail without a little healthy dread of how bad it's going to hurt or fear that I may biff on a technical challenge I get bored and lose interest in riding. My home trails are steep and involve much climbing but have virtually no technical challenges so when I travel to ride trails like Moore it renews my stoke. It'd be sweet to be able to keep riding Moore as it is until I could clean it and I'll certainly do just that next time I go down there precisely BECAUSE it would hurt and involve the very real risk of me injuring myself or breaking my bike on it.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Boris Badenov said:


> A mature conversation with someone who thinks trails in Sedona and Flagstaff are wheelchair accessible?
> 
> I believe you are the quintessential poster boy for everything that went wrong with the sport of mountain biking, with Mikesee coming in a close second. We use to go ride our rigid bikes on trails to enjoy the outdoors and the experience of traveling through it on our bikes. We fell in love with the sport. We traveled to places like Moab, the Mecca of mountain biking, to meet others who shared our passion. We read mountain bike magazines for stories about great places to ride our bikes and for bike reviews and tips on repairing and maintaining our bikes. We made friends with other riders.
> 
> ...


You have really outdone yourself with this one. I think it's possibly your best post of all time, an instant classic!


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> Fleas I am certainly not a 1.5%'er and you will never see where I implied that. You posted a video of a fun trail you enjoy riding. I also would enjoy riding a trail like that, BUT in Shredona we don't have terrain like that to build such a trail. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
> 
> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah


SB, perhaps my sarcasm was unclear. You were talking about "fixing" (or "improving"?) trails because _you_ deemed something to be unsafe or unrideable or not fitting _your_ idea of _your_ perfect trail. But then you are judging trails that you've only seen in a video as "easy", where the rate of injuries is the same as anywhere else - because riders decide _for themselves_ what they are going to ride.

I take it you don't see the irony in you judging a trail as "easy"...


Switchblade2 said:


> ...I doubt Boris or I would do any trail improvements to that trail...


...while there are other riders, less experienced than you, who think it is difficult. What is stopping _them_ from undertaking your crusade to "improve" trails but doing it from their less-experienced perspective and hauling off more rocks and logs, smoothing holes, chopping out those little handlebar grabbing trees on the inside of the turns...
That behavior is frowned upon no matter who is doing it.

I didn't put you in the 1%. You said yourself that you are not. _I_ put you in that next 0.5% as a joke because you think the remaining 98.5% can't ride the trails as they are built. It was a joke.

Mike made his point. I think we are done here.

-F


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Fleas said:


> I take it you don't see the irony in you judging a trail as "easy"...
> 
> ...while there are other riders, less experienced than you, who think it is difficult. What is stopping _them_ from undertaking your crusade to "improve" trails but doing it from their less-experienced perspective and hauling off more rocks and logs, smoothing holes, chopping out those little handlebar grabbing trees on the inside of the turns...


And this is what I'm sure most people picture when they think of sanitization, not some epic dirt highway project to fix a washed out mess that's been planned and permitted six ways to Sunday.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

In other words, you're "sort of a big deal." Got it.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Switchblade2 said:


> twd nice write up can you do us a favor and post a video of the most technical trail you and your group has completed in the last five years. I have an idea of what the beginner and intermediate trails you guys built but I am curious what the more advanced trails look like and some of those features that were added to up the skill level required to ride the trail. I am assuming we will see riders walking some sections of the trail, so they can build their future skill to a 5%'er level. Thanks


My post was in direct response to Boris's question about whether land managers allow riders to design and build trail. No more, no less.

I wouldn't qualify any of these trails as "technical" or expert level. As I pointed out in my post, we are just starting construction on the more advanced trails. We have virtually no rock in our soil, so it isn't possible to have the raw technicality of a trail like Moore Fun or what you have in Sedona, and since our trails are in the PNW and open to year round use in wet conditions, we don't have the luxury of using steep fall line sections without major armoring since we don't have large rock slabs like in BC either.

The photo below shows one of the rock features one of our intermediate trail sections.









Since we lack the natural rock in our local geology, we had to haul in over 40 tons of boulders for some of the technical features like the one above. None of the intermediate trail features this trail should require walking by virtually anyone, especially the trails that are approved for downhill directional travel only. Case in point, my 10 year old son on a 24 inch hardtail with a suspension fork with all the suppleness of a 2x4 was able to ride the rock feature above, and every other technical feature on the trail on his first time ever down the trail. And he is no Jackson Goldstone. He probably rides less than 10 times a year. And I don't have the slightest bit of trouble riding those sections on a hardtail tandem with my wife or kids on the back either, and my daughter was riding many of these trails at 7 years old.

Yet, we still have riders who take it upon themselves to create alternate lines around every root and rock on the trail. This trail has been criticized by the so called "5%" that you speak of as not being technical enough (it was never intended to be such), and yet I've personally spent dozens of hours closing off lines where riders have ridden off trail to avoid rocks that stick up 4" or less above the tread. These lines widen the trail tread beyond what our agreement with the land manager specifies, damages vegetation, creates erosion issues where none existed, and changes the trail experience from singletrack to a wide braided hot mess. Fixing those issues is time that would have been better spent maintaining drains, trimming back vegetation, or building new trail.

And while we typically design in features that discourage riders from going around simple technical features that are wholly appropriate for the difficulty rating for the trail, I am continually amazed at the length riders will go to avoid any and all features that aren't as smooth as a baby's butt.

My point is, that the issue of trail sanitizing is not limited to features that only the 1% or 5% can ride on a good day, but in our situation it is pervasive on beginner and intermediate trails that my 9 year old daughter can ride, and that riders taking it upon themselves to alter a trail can have negative impacts on the trail.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Fleas said:


> SB, perhaps my sarcasm was unclear. You were talking about "fixing" (or "improving"?) trails because _you_ deemed something to be unsafe or unrideable or not fitting _your_ idea of _your_ perfect trail. But then you are judging trails that you've only seen in a video as "easy", where the rate of injuries is the same as anywhere else - because riders decide _for themselves_ what they are going to ride.
> 
> I take it you don't see the irony in you judging a trail as "easy"...
> 
> ...


This thread is pure spun gold. It's like the 12 days of Christmas.

What's ironic about switchblade2's insistence on making every trail feature rideable for every ability is that IIRC he claimed to be responsible for routing LPS through the Notch. (Although it's been a few years since I read his piece in Freehub.)


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Boris Badenov said:


> Son, (my Jack Nicholson rant) we live to ride our bikes on trails. Those trails have to be built and maintained by men with strong backs. Who's gonna do it? You and Mikesee? Switchblade and I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know; that our trail maintenance and restoration work allows passionate mountain bikers to have a great riding experience. And our existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, provides countless riders the best possible riding experience. You don't want the truth because deep down you know you are a fringe element that we could all do without. We use words like sustainable trail improvements, grade reversal drains, out slope, brushing, site lines. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent creating something. You use them as a punchline. Why should I explain myself to people who ride on the very trails I have built and maintained, and then question the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you all just said "thank you" and went on your way. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!


Hmmm....this sounds familiar.

http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/you-cant-handle-trail-955376.html


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

*Nope*



raisingarizona said:


> You have really outdone yourself with this one. I think it's possibly your best post of all time, an instant classic!


This is his best post of all time:

"I got a text at 2:55am this morning, from my wife, who was heading down the South Kaibab Trail with a group of guys on a Rim to Rim to Rim run. I don't understand why she does some of the things she does."

I'm betting the UPS man understands......


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

evasive said:


> This thread is pure spun gold. It's like the 12 days of Christmas.
> 
> What's ironic about switchblade2's insistence on making every trail feature rideable for every ability is that IIRC he claimed to be responsible for routing LPS through the Notch. (Although it's been a few years since I read his piece in Freehub.)


Yes, this is true. He's probably touched more tread in more states (including Canada) than anybody in this forum.

Personally, I'm all for his "fixes" on trails that have mostly become technical because of erosion. To my knowledge which is quite good for Sedona, I don't know of any sanitation, that he has done to a trail where the technical feature was designed or built into the tread. Not sure why he's even posting in this thread because his MO is about fixing and making eroded pieces of crap rideable.

Moore Fun isn't that.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Would have been nice if this thread had stayed on the original topic, and not been hijacked by a couple people who apparently just wanted to talk about themselves and toot their own horns. The original topic was a pretty interesting point of discussion, imo. But such is the way of the interwebs. 

Out.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)




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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Lots of entertainment here for sure. Beats the 24 hour news cycle all to heck.

I get that some want super gnar trails to ride on to challenge themselves and those should be part of the equation.

For me this old man is more into long distances and flow. I don't mind hike a biking and I have done tons of that but I prefer not to.

BUT what really reams me about this thread is giving people who do a lot of trail building and maintenace ****. Calling them show offs or tooting their own horns is childish. People who build and maintain trails should be praised and not derided in my opinion. I think we all have to look in the mirror and ask ourselves what have we personally done to make mountain biking better. More trails that are maintained is better in my book.

If I were to pick a newcomer to my town from all who have posted on this thread it would be Boris and hopefully some hot chick named Natasha! We have one trail locally that I hope to resurrect because it has become so unrideable. Riders rarely use it any more and it certainly isn't sought out by those riders looking for a challenge.

But I can see the purpose for trails like Moore but mostly I want to see more trails.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

richwolf said:


> BUT what really reams me about this thread is giving people who do a lot of trail building and maintenace ****. Calling them show offs or tooting their own horns is childish. People who build and maintain trails should be praised and not derided in my opinion. I think we all have to look in the mirror and ask ourselves what have we personally done to make mountain biking better. More trails that are maintained is better in my book.


I think you're really missing the point of why this whole thread was started, and what the discussion was _intended_ to be about, versus what it devolved into. No one is giving anyone **** simply because they build trails and do a lot of maintenance, which would be ridiculous. I'm sure _everyone_ on this thread applauds and supports, if not actively takes part in such actions, myself included. That is clearly not the behavior that people are calling out in this thread.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

richwolf said:


> Lots of entertainment here for sure. Beats the 24 hour news cycle all to heck.
> 
> I get that some want super gnar trails to ride on to challenge themselves and those should be part of the equation.
> 
> ...


When you're out riding with Boris ask him what his take on climate change is. It'll be good times!


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

richwolf said:


> ......People who build and maintain trails should be praised and not derided.....If I were to pick a newcomer to my town from all who have posted on this thread it would be Boris


1. You need to read the OP, this is not a thread about trail builders, it is a thread about unauthorized trail sanitizers. Refer to post 251 to see the difference- that is a shining example of sanitation; authorized or not.
2. I know I speak for many when I say "You can have him!"


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

I've followed this thread since the beginning..., sheesh, what does that say about me? 

Boris, you clearly have no clue about mikesee's contributions to the sport. Very little of what he does falls into the type of riding you describe, though he certainly doesn't need a hack like me to defend him. Switch', you always, always miss the point (sometimes deliberately, I think) and try to steer every thread even remotely related to trail building into a personal rant. This thread WAS about ONE guy's plea to keep ONE purpose built tech/trials trail from being sanitized into JUST ANOTHER TRAIL. In one early post the OP clearly stated there were other moderate trails leaving from the same trailhead. Though I will never clean Moore Fun, this seemed, and still seems to me, like a reasonable, non-controversial request. How THAT blew up into THIS I will never understand. 

By all accounts, you two guys deserve credit for building the kind of trails that guys like me can actually (mostly) ride. Thank you! There! That shouldn't be hard to say, but it was 'cause you blowhards are too busy thanking yourselves.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

i would say that was something worth saying that hadn't been


veloborealis said:


> I've followed this thread since the beginning..., sheesh, what does that say about me?
> 
> Boris, you clearly have no clue about mikesee's contributions to the sport. Very little of what he does falls into the type of riding you describe, though he certainly doesn't need a hack like me to defend him. Switch', you always, always miss the point (sometimes deliberately, I think) and try to steer every thread even remotely related to trail building into a personal rant. This thread WAS about ONE guy's plea to keep ONE purpose built tech/trials trail from being sanitized into JUST ANOTHER TRAIL. In one early post the OP clearly stated there were other moderate trails leaving from the same trailhead. Though I will never clean Moore Fun, this seemed, and still seems to me, like a reasonable, non-controversial request. How THAT blew up into THIS I will never understand.
> 
> By all accounts, you two guys deserve credit for building the kind of trails that guys like me can actually (mostly) ride. Thank you! There! That shouldn't be hard to say, but it was 'cause you blowhards are too busy thanking yourselves.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

richwolf said:


> BUT what really reams me about this thread is giving people who do a lot of trail building and maintenace ****. Calling them show offs or tooting their own horns is childish. People who build and maintain trails should be praised and not derided in my opinion.


Lots of people in this thread build and maintain trails.
Only a couple think that means they get to be swaggering assholes and everyone should bow down. What a joke.

:ciappa:


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

twd953 said:


> My post was in direct response to Boris's question about whether land managers allow riders to design and build trail. No more, no less.
> 
> I wouldn't qualify any of these trails as "technical" or expert level. As I pointed out in my post, we are just starting construction on the more advanced trails. We have virtually no rock in our soil, so it isn't possible to have the raw technicality of a trail like Moore Fun or what you have in Sedona, and since our trails are in the PNW and open to year round use in wet conditions, we don't have the luxury of using steep fall line sections without major armoring since we don't have large rock slabs like in BC either.
> 
> ...


That looks fun. Where is it?


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Curveball said:


> That looks fun. Where is it?


Whistlepunk trail, Alsea Falls trail system, Orygun.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

twd953 said:


> Whistlepunk trail, Alsea Falls trail system, Orygun.


Cool, I'll have to hit that up when I go down that way to see my brother. I take it there are also more challenging trails in that network?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mikesee said:


> Who died and made you king? More importantly, do you leave the house, ever? How do you fit through the doorways with a head that big?


Oh the irony...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

veloborealis said:


> I've followed this thread since the beginning..., sheesh, what does that say about me?
> 
> Boris, you clearly have no clue about mikesee.


That's great, and while Boris and SW may not be the best communicators, you likewise have little understanding of their contribution to the sport. For years, Sedona was some fabled mtb destination, but actually riding there was pretty boring for me. Yes, a couple notable trails like Chicken Point to Sub Rock and Templeton, but while the views were pretty amazing, the riding wasn't very interesting, all lots of steep ups and downs and some sections were just bad. Because Boris, SW, and others, many trails were built, many trails were linked, many features were improved to make them rideable. Not rideable on a wheelchair (well, I did see one guy on a 4-wheel off-roader near Pyramid once), but riedable for advanced riders. If you are out there riding Cow Pies and pulling that off day after day with no dabs and no walking, then my hat is off to you, but by the same token, to keep at that level, it requires maintenance and it requires fixing. Many of these trails "break down" due to erosion, traffic and other factors, and to keep them in some kind of shape, they take work. The idea that there is some kind of trail out there that is "sustainable" is mainly BS IME, nature will reclaim everything if left alone. Most of the time, the more challenging the trail, the more attention it needs. So SW goes out and levers giant rocks into places that make these trails do-able again, either restoring to a previous version or making something suitable for riding that previously wasn't.

I think the perspective that Boris and SW (and other builders) were bringing to the table is that it's not so cut and dry. They are not trying to dumb down all of the trails that they maintain or build, but just because your trail is a certain way and you like it that way is a fairly myopic view.

I'm of the opinion that mountain bike trails should be just that, for mountain bikes. If you need trials skills to ride them, they are not mountain bike trails anymore, but rock-formations that trials riders can hop around/on. That means continuous rolling forward for the most part to me. I love and will seek out technical terrain, but the builders maintainers and land managers have to make reasonable decisions on what constitutes advanced skills and not ridiculous reckless danger where there's little chance that an advanced rider can ride the trail. Yep, this becomes subjective, and I think that was part of the point. Mike is always quick to tell you the way he likes to do things, the parts he likes to ride, the tires that everyone else should use, and so on. Does he have a valid point with Moore Fun? Sure, but there is also validity to the fact that trails should have a degree of rideability and not all maintenance/sanitation is taking away from the trail experience, in some cases it's greatly increasing it.

Highline is real fun trail to come down, but the next time you are on it, really think hard about that climb, all that went into making it, arranging the rocks, the corners/switch back, etc. It's a challenging climb for most, not the most challenging of course and not the longest, but far more on the tech side than most. There are dozens if not hundreds or more spots like that in Sedona that have had to have the same work done. Sedona wouldn't be what it is today if that work wasn't done.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Seriously, Jayem? How could I not know about their contributions? They keep telling us every chance they get. Even when no one asked. Have your own axe to grind with the OP?


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Again, let my try to re-direct you to the original topic -- sanitation/dumbing-down of trails that were already sustainable as-is. Making a line easier to clean when it is already sustainable from a longevity standpoint is the issue at hand here.

There are undoubtedly MANY people in this thread who have contributed to mountain biking in a great many ways, and that is not limited to just trailbuilding. Furthermore, you literally don't know the background of any of the folks in here.

In Boris' latest tirade, I was labeled and profiled to a such a ridiculous degree that is so far from the truth it's entirely laughable. I don't care what he has accomplished regarding trails; he has constructed a strawman of epic proportions in this thread, and comes across as a buffoon because of it. The stereotype that he constructed doesn't actually exist in the reality in which I live. I have been involved with mountain biking since the mid 1980s. I don't need to "post videos" or link to projects I've worked on to prove that I'm worthy to comment on mountain biking. I don't need to defend the aspects of mountain biking that I enjoy, either, just because I enjoy aspects that others don't. 

And if I was heavily involved in the trailbuilding process, that still wouldn't qualify me any more than the next guy to dictate what is "correct trail management for all" as some here feel entitled to do. Trail design and maintenance is not rocket science. I am a landscape designer/installer/builder by trade, and a lot of what I do is water-management with respect to preserving a landscape for long term sustainability. It is not rocket science, either. Finally, I have worked alongside many "trailbuilders" who actually don't have a clue what they're doing.

For the record, I want to see more trails of EVERY type. I have a wife who rides, but does not have my skill level and will never reach it due to her personal priorities. I still want trails that are appropriate for her so we can go have a good time. I have a daughter who will likely ride someday and I want her to have a great time. Nobody here is advocating that everything should be catered to the top-tier.

Just leave the very few top-tier trails intact for those of us that want them.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> slap I totally disagree with your statement about lots of "people in this thread build trails". No one other than Boris has stepped up with any evidence of the trails they have personally built which qualifies them to do necessary trail improvements on trails when needed. If you are saying people in this thread work on trails with others then that is probably true. Where are the videos of those popular trails for us to view so we can see what kind of trails they worked on?
> 
> It surprises me that you would resort to personal attacks on those people who have done more for the sport of mountain biking then you probably ever have. Your choice of words didn't seem to bring you much applause from the thread viewers.


So if I post a hundred links to videos that's 'evidence' that I built 100 trails in your mind? I put up more than enough information for you go see some vids if you want. I'm assuming you can operate YouTube?

As far as applause, I'm willing to bet I received more positive rep in 10 words than you and Doris did from dribbling out 10,000. The pair of you are insufferable, regardless of your purported trail work.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jayem said:


> while Boris and SW may not be the best communicators


They communicate just fine; the problem isn't communication skill or even message. It's personality.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mikesee said:


> You're a self-serving jackhole.
> 
> You seem to have come here not with an intention of learning, but with an axe to grind.
> 
> ...


Let me just say that you are a coward. Not because of the neg rep you gave me. That is meaningless. You are a coward because you love to use passive aggressive tactics to attack others who question you. You casually joked about people going out on trails and shooting people like me (with paintball guns). You knew others would join in and they did. Someone even suggested a blanket party, intended to physically assault others. Now you are making a suggestion that Switchblade should have his posts deleted by moderators, or maybe you are going even further and suggesting he be banned. That is the act of a coward. Those types of comments are why I entered this thread. You decided to wander into the Arizona forums and lecture people on what you want them to do and not to do on your trails in Colorado. You made claimed that one particular trail was totally sustainable and has never needed work. Later you said it has deteriorated, but only slightly, with some loose rocks. You knew that nobody in Arizona did any work on Moore Fun. You know it was a local. But you felt you had to go educate others on what you believe is best for you and your type of riding.

We all gave you props for your skills. We all said we enjoyed the videos and pictures you have your riding friends take of you while you clean difficult sections of trail. But you wanted more than that. You wanted to beat up on anyone who doesn't view every trail that way you do and think the experience should include challenges that put riders at risk of serious injury. You got both myself and Switchblade to say we would never touch a trail like Moore Fun because it seems, according to all who have ridden it, to be a near perfect riding experience and was designed to be exactly what it currently is. We can't do much more than agree with you on that, as we did.

But most of the responses were from people voicing anger over other trails they ride on that they find challenging. They made many comments, some good and some way off, about risk and challenge and earning the right, and improving your skills, and not dumbing down the trails for beginner level riders. We attempted to tell them we are not beginner level riders and have never catered to them (no disrespect to beginner level riders). We don't enjoy beginner trails, so we would rather spend out time working to preserve and restore expert level trails that we ride all the time. I've spent months trying to get land managers to adopt a "beyond" expert boulder challenge (sorry, no pictures yet) in an expanded preserve that is about to have new trails built on. I cannot clean all the steep, 4 foot ledges to get up on all the boulders, even though at least one rider has cleaned all of them.

Jayem and Rockman are both gifted riders. They regularly ride the most challenging trails available. Same with Switchblade. I began riding in Sedona in 1996, and found the trails in need of work. Many were simply hiking trails recently opened for mountain bikers. They lacked the challenges bikers desire. That has changed dramatically over the last 21 years. The reason is because Switchblade and some of his riding friends, and even a few Forest Service employees, went out and built the perfect trails for expert riders. They never went out to build easy trails. But they know, like we everyone else, except maybe you, that trails deteriorate over time and need some love. Loose rocks need to get cleared. Drains need to be flushed out. As soil erodes, some obstacles become hike-a-bike. It's not uncommon for those features to be restored to the challenge they started off at. That can mean adding a rock at the base of the large step to allow riders to ramp up slightly as they lunge their bikes forward, over it. Despite people assuming that is sanitizing, it is restoring a challenge.

The benefit, as I see it, in threads like this is that people are forced to define their terms more succinctly. To be more specific in what they believe is going on. Switchblade and I do not dumb down trail for beginners. Nor are we beginner riders. He has asked for videos because many people from other parts of the country, are using a different scale than we use. They show pictures and videos of what appear to be beginner level trails that are 2-5 miles long and in their description on Trail Forks, they are described as mostly double-track trails. That is why it is important to better define what it is we are discussing. It drifted away from Moore Fun almost immediately. I knew what I was getting into when I came here, but once you (Mikesee) created a hostile environment, and joked about acts of violence towards me, there was going to be blow-back.


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

ray.vermette said:


> Many of the trail sanitation stories I read go like this:
> 
> 
> Trail was initially built as an unsanctioned rake-and-ride, poorly designed & routed.
> ...


Was going to reply to this effect but didn't have to since you said it so well. It's important to distinguish between dumbing down tech trails and rehabbing trails that have fallen into a state of disrepair.

An ambiguous middle ground is when trail wear leads to a cool feature that's nonetheless hard. For example, a tree falls over the trail. People pile up sticks to make a ramp on either side. It's fun, but hard. Eventually the whole thing gets chainsawed out. I'm not sure what to think of that situation.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

cookieMonster said:


> ...you literally don't know the background of any of the folks in here.
> 
> I was labeled and profiled to a such a ridiculous degree that is so far from the truth it's entirely laughable.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but you are an easy target, cookie monster. Dante's Inferno consists of 9 concentric circles of Hell. Evidence strongly suggests that death metal and dark metal music fans occupy the inner circles. Same with down-hiller bikers who boast about riding their rigid Schwinn Moab 40 mph in the dirt. But you seem to have gone all-in, and made your way to the very inner circle of Hell by actually buying a guitar and amp and performing dark metal, even recording it and sharing it with others. You have managed to every negative stereotype about adrenaline junkie downhillers into a flaming ball of amplified trail terrorism. And you're too ashamed to even mention that you are a dedicated downhiller. Maybe you can post some of your latest dark metal recordings for the other satanists downhillers to enjoy.

The point of calling you out was that you are essentially the Maytag repairman of the sport of mountain biking. Nobody is ever going to knock on your door and ask you your opinion on trail design or level of maintenance. You are inconsequential in that regard and yet feel that somehow, the minutia of our sport, the destroyers of trails and melody, should be somehow catered to. Just be thankful that when the snow melts up there in Montana, sometime next May, you'll have some steep isolated local trails to tear apart.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> slap I personally don't care about rep. I think Boris did initially, but he quickly came to realize the land managers are coming to him to get new trails and maintenance done in the area he lives, so now he realizes it's the quality of the work that gets done that's important. It just happens that rep on MTBR is MOORE of a mutual admiration society.
> 
> Certainly you being the most skilled rider on MTBR is fun to look at on videos, but is does nothing to maintain the trails for the vast majority of riders, so they can have a better riding experience.
> 
> ...


You were the one who brought up 'applause', weren't you? 
Well, rep is like applause around here, and it was a veritable standing ovation over on my profile page.

As far as the rest, I'll leave the e-dick-waving to you and your little buddy. Seems to be your specialty. I've been giving back to the sport since the late 90's and typically put in 400+ trail work hours a year. No details I give would mean anything to you though, just like you listing off some trails 1000s of miles away means nothing to me, so why waste the time. I don't really care how much trailwork you guys have supposedly done; I could never respect either of you just based on your incredibly oversized egos.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

This thread can't possibly last much longer...

Or can it?


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Why? I really don't know. By whom? Don't know that either.​


Didn't read entire thread to see if this has been brought up, but as to why, it could be that people are looking for a doable/manageable/easy way to loop Mary's with singletrack and not have to ride on the frontage road. If that's the case, I agree with you that this isn't the right way to do it, but I can see why this would be desirable and even "logical" for some. I'm not sure how to best educate/persuade people that this isn't the best solution.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jayem said:


> I'm of the opinion that mountain bike trails should be just that, for mountain bikes. If you need trials skills to ride them, they are not mountain bike trails anymore, but rock-formations that trials riders can hop around/on. .


I'm not sure how long you've been riding, I imagine quite a while, but trials skills were considered intrinsic to mountain biking when I started. Remember when riders not only had to prove their fitness with XC courses, but also had to take part in DH and Trials segments as part of overall competitions (usually on the same bikes)? That sort of challenge is still part of the game for a lot of us regardless of the attempted re-interpretation of mountain biking into some sort of sit-n-spin game by some.


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> You were the one who brought up 'applause', weren't you?


I applaud him for staying out of the National Forest each time he was banned for forest abuse! LOL


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

mikesee said:


> There's this trail in our backyard. Pretty technical, in an old-school, slow-speed, rock crawling sort of way. It is one of our favorite trails because it requires a delicate blend of skill, finesse, and horsepower to ride well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm quoting Mikes original post for a reason. I'm late to this thread and after reading through some of the last several posts it's obvious that it's turned into a **** fest. I'm not going to go through and read the whole thread and get pissed at the obvious jack ass responses in here. My view on changing or sanitizing trails, trails like this in particular are dead on exact in what Mike said throughout his initial post. Stop sanitizing trails to your liking. Quoted by Mike "all you're doing is cheating yourself and others of becoming a better rider". If you don't like a trail for what it is, don't change it, go ride another trail. Mike, thanks for taking the time to create such a post with videos to bring to the forefront one of today's biggest problem issues in our sport. Sanitizing, not only by trail users but by trail builders and by trail maintenance workers. Please use your head and try to keep the soul of the sport alive by keeping the terrain as natural as possible. There are plenty of flow trails out there if this type of riding is not your liking. Don't cheat others out of the outdoor adventure mountain biking was created on.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

You sir, are a basket case. I'm done.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

cookieMonster said:


> You sir, are a basket case. I'm done.


I am a basket case? Hmm. . .never thought of myself that way. Maybe I'll seek some therapy, but in the meantime maybe you should try to be a little bit more precise in what you're trying to get across.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I am a basket case? Hmm. . .never thought of myself that way. Maybe I'll seek some therapy, but in the meantime maybe you should try to be a little bit more precise in what you're trying to get across.


Pretty sure CookieMonster is responding to Boris, they've been at it for a bit and Cookie is shredding Doris!


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

No, I never intended that for you, DirtJunkie. Sorry if you got that impression. Sometimes the way this forum is setup makes it a little confusing with a phone. My comment was indeed directed at Boris; though, at this point I've said my piece and I'm going to try to leave this thread. I'm feeling a little weird that Boris needed to dig into my past threads and construct a largely false/totally inaccurate picture of who I am.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

mileslong said:


> Pretty sure CookieMonster is responding to Boris, they've been at it for a bit and Cookie is shredding Doris!


Oh, well in that case forgive me Cookie. I noticed a couple of Boris posts that lead me to stop reading the thread, I then made my above post to Mikes original post.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

cookieMonster said:


> No, I never intended that for you, DirtJunkie. Sorry if you got that impression. Sometimes the way this forum is setup makes it a little confusing with a phone.


No worries, looks like we are on the same page with this topic. Serves me right for not backtracking the thread before responding.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

deleted


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Switchblade2 said:


> DIRT stating that SANITIZING IS "one of today's biggest problem issues in our sport" is not true for the majority of the world's mountain biking population. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so. That what's so great about social media. You can make stuff up and like minded individuals will agree with you. SANITIZING is a very small issue, that MOTHER NATURE is constantly fighting against. Nice try!


Lol-lighten up Francis. It's certainly one of my biggest issues with the sport in recent years. And I bet there are plenty that would agree with me. I understand trail maintenance and fixing erosion problems but there's a fine line to going too far with it. making lines around or ruining the original line in a tech session is not what mountain biking was built on. Mike stated in his video the term "sessioning". Give it a try sometime when you come to a section you repeatedly can't clean. Stop and try it over and over until you do clean it. I bet in no time you will have conquered the beast. On to the next section. The next time you ride that same trail you clean "the beast section" the first time. It's an awesome feeling and it makes you a better rider.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

cookieMonster said:


> I'm feeling a little weird that Boris needed to dig into my past threads and construct a largely false/totally inaccurate picture of who I am.


Well, if you've ever seen his band, you'd understand.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> DIRT stating that SANITIZING IS "one of today's biggest problem issues in our sport" is not true for the majority of the world's mountain biking population. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so. That what's so great about social media. You can make stuff up and like minded individuals will agree with you. SANITIZING is a very small issue, that MOTHER NATURE is constantly fighting against. Nice try!


 Well here in New England it is BIG problem, on almost all the trails I ride on.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> slap I personally don't care about rep. I think Boris did initially, but he quickly came to realize the land managers are coming to him to get new trails and maintenance done in the area he lives, so now he realizes it's the quality of the work that gets done that's important. It just happens that rep on MTBR is MOORE of a mutual admiration society.
> 
> Certainly you being the most skilled rider on MTBR is fun to look at on videos, but is does nothing to maintain the trails for the vast majority of riders, so they can have a better riding experience.
> 
> ...


 We work in New England, and don't have the giant egos to vid all of our trail work. Slap, me and 5,000 of our closest friends. Nemba land. Check out the web site or one of our singletrack mags, 30 or so chapters that live by the " dig dirt, rest, repeat." moto. Really. Check out the most recent Jeff Lenosky vid of Lynn Woods, that awesome fun playground. You wouldn't like it though, you might have to walk some sections. Seeing that it is composed of giant granite rock and slab, no cheating lines can be made. There's always the dirt road that you could pedal. There is so much chunk, granite, big rocks and ledge out here, most riders have the need for mad skilz, dude. Just step it up some. We have trails that almost everyone walks a section of, but not all the same sections. My solution? Just ride it in the other direction, cheers.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I'm quoting Mikes original post for a reason. I'm late to this thread and after reading through some of the last several posts it's obvious that it's turned into a **** fest. I'm not going to go through and read the whole thread and get pissed at the obvious jack ass responses in here. My view on changing or sanitizing trails, trails like this in particular are dead on exact in what Mike said throughout his initial post. Stop sanitizing trails to your liking. Quoted by Mike "all you're doing is cheating yourself and others of becoming a better rider". If you don't like a trail for what it is, don't change it, go ride another trail. Mike, thanks for taking the time to create such a post with videos to bring to the forefront one of today's biggest problem issues in our sport. Sanitizing, not only by trail users but by trail builders and by trail maintenance workers. Please use your head and try to keep the soul of the sport alive by keeping the terrain as natural as possible. There are plenty of flow trails out there if this type of riding is not your liking. Don't cheat others out of the outdoor adventure mountain biking was created on.


Spot on.



slapheadmofo said:


> Well, if you've ever seen his band, you'd understand.


This seems like the perfect capper to the last 2.5 pages of high absurdity, fragile ego munching and teenage sword fighting.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

leeboh said:


> Well here in New England it is BIG problem, on almost all the trails I ride on.


It's been a big problem in my area of Northern Colorado for several years now.

Here's an example of one my local trails being sanitized back in 2014. I filmed this section the first time because I enjoyed the riding challenge so much. Plus it was a great place to take a break and enjoy the views and watch others go through it. I rode the trail a month later and came upon a very disappointing sight. It was sanitized. Not sure by who, I'm thinking this one was a sanctioned event. There was talk about it on my local forum back then and it was claimed it was due to erosion and to prevent more of it. Funny thing is, this section was the same for years without any noticeable changes from erosion.

These videos are from different angles of the same section. Look close at the landscape timbers and you'll see the obvious backfull change.

*1]* https://www.pinkbike.com/video/354950/

*2]* https://www.pinkbike.com/video/360336/


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ Does your arms hurt from patting yourself on the back so much?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Switchblade2 said:


> The head of Law Enforcement told my judge "we just can'r have anybody out doing trail mainteance" he also told me in a per trial negotiation "in my whole carrier as a law enforcement officer I have never seem a person like you more PASSIONATE about maintaining trails. I actually think you think you can do a better job than the Forest Service."
> 
> If those two videos are an example of USFS maintenance I would have to agree with the enforcement ranger. Looking at that work on the second video I would have to say it looks like something the Friends of the Forest would do in Sedona under permission of the USFS.


Alrighty then. . I never said I knew who did it. I said I think it was a sanctioned event according to what was said on my local forum back then. Either way it was filled in smoothed our wheelchair ramp by the time they were done with it. Not very challenging of a section anymore. I guess that's todays mountain biking goal is to make every section of every trail, user friendly to all skill levels. Maybe I'll take up golf and see what's the new trend in knolls, greens and sand traps. Knowing today's pussified outdoor adventurists and my luck they probably did away with the sand traps and water obstacles.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

What a perfect day to be alive and out riding in North America's premier winter riding destination, Phoenix, AZ. Met a large group of riders from Norway. Some others from Canada. Sadly, they all have to return to the deep snow for the next 4-5 months.

I saw a short post from Raising Arizona, a local Flagstaff rider. He deserves some special recognition for all his efforts to expand the trail system in Flagstaff. The guy has spent ten years, I think, trying his best to get the Forest Service to create new trails for technical riding experts like him to enjoy. They have made lots of promises and failed to honor most of them. But he and Rockman won't give up until the FS gets those new trails built. Now that I've seen the video of Mikesee and his doctor friend, I gotta say that what they are doing is nothing like what RA and Rockman do on their bikes. They find ways to travel straight down a mountain and go up and over almost anything in their path. I've seen it done and hardly believe what I'm watching. So my advice is not to go after those guys like they are not among the very elite technical riders around. This has never been about making trails wheelchair accessible, as some have stated.

Here's to 78 degrees outside and six more months of great riding weather.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Switchblade2 said:


> Clear "Do your arms hurt" from all the trail maintenance projects you have worked on. During my ride today I thought some about this thread. One question I have for Micksee and his cronies is: when was the last time any of them worked with the land manager to mitigate badly eroded trail tread to bring it back to its original look when the tread was originally constructed?


When's the last time you got laid? Just asking, seems to be a lot of pent up pissed off frustration.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Switchblade2 said:


> Clear "Do your arms hurt" from all the trail maintenance projects you have worked on.


WOW! Everyone is taking the bait of this troll, including me.

What a narcissistic, self centered, person that lacks of empathy for other people, but with a huge need for admiration from others who demands the arrow to always be pointing toward himself and the need for outside sources (like this thread) to maintain his enormously inflated, but very delicate ego.

Whatever snowflake.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> Well, if you've ever seen his band, you'd understand.


"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to slapheadmofo again."


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Wut? I came here to read about Alabama elections.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> This has never been about me, regardless of how badly I try to make it that way


fify


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> fify


I was thinking back, possibly before your time here, to the days of f-88, aka, the shark tank. It was officially titled; Political-economic-religious forum on MTBR. The folks who started MTBR felt that it would segregate the worst elements of the forum members onto one location and let them carry on in their own Thunderdome, without so much collateral damage spread to other forums. But it failed miserably. Those guys would go on missions to destroy all credibility of various sponsors, and that quickly got the attention of the bosses here.

There was one particular moderator on f-88, that was a lot like you. The guy admitted he loved the personal attacks, the sexual innuendo, the constant profanity. He defended it. He was a part of it. Then one day while I was defending a police officer who was being attacked on f-88, after a shooting in Los Angeles, I came to the realization that f-88 was poison and had to go. I told them as much. Immediately, the moderator banned me from MTBR. In the statement for why I was banned, it said it was for what I was thinking. I even contacted Eddie, I think that was the mods name, and asked him why I was banned. He said it was not because of anything I did, but what I was thinking. Strange. So, I copied that email over to the owners, I forgot their names, and they quickly banned Eddie as both a moderator and a member, and they closed down f-88.

http://forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/f88-380337.html

PsyCro's Avatar Join Date
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F88
Please excuse my ignorance but, why exactly is it called F88?? I was considering dropping the question directly into that forum but am a little antsy to go there!

hollister's Avatar Join Date
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come on down

bring a bucket and a clean shirt.

EDDIE JONES EDDIE JONES is offline
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Quote Originally Posted by GTLTSJoe
Thanks PsyCro........I wondered the same.......Was afraid to ask...........I thought it was code for weird stuff...........That forum is way left of centerline & most of the guys seem polarized differently than most IMO I recommend that you dont venture down there & stay here with all the normal folks in Gen Dis. ............Best Regards to all, Joe
AWWWWW, you should come into f88. It ain't that bad. Just bring a thick skin and some strong convictions. It is the area on mtbr where your opinions on life aside from mtb'ing matter. I am always on the lookout for new posters in that forum...................I find it one of the more "fun" forums on this site...give it a shot, if you don't like it you can always come back to where the "normal" people are

________________________________________________________

Try not to let being a mod go to your head, slapheadmofo. It won't end well. I don't mind your neg applause. But try to pretend you have a job description that does not include cursing at members.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Boris dude you got way too much teenage angst for an old guy


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mikesee said:


> There's this trail in our backyard. Pretty technical, in an old-school, slow-speed, rock crawling sort of way. It is one of our favorite trails because it requires a delicate blend of skill, finesse, and horsepower to ride well.
> 
> The trail is called Moore Fun. I helped a tiny bit with walking the ridge, laying out the route, and building this trail way back in the late '90's. Not positive which year exactly, other than it was a long time ago.
> 
> ...


I watched the Vimeo video, with narration from Mikesee.

Some thoughts;

The trail sign he shows, does not indicate it is a technical specific designed trail. He claims it is approx. 20 years old, maybe less. It does have songs of erosion, despite what he has claimed. Soil has migrated or been washed away in places along the tread.

At 2:54 on the video, he shows some rocks piled where there is a b-line around a tech move. The b-line is also a tech move that most riders would fail to make, but it is lined up better. I would take the b-line. It should also be noted that the 3-4 "Marquee" sections of the trail where b-lines exist, they do not interfere with Mikesse attempting to ride the original line.

He piled rocks to discourage riders from taking the b-line and encourage them to ride "the damn line".

At 4:00, another Marquee move that was changed by removal of a small tree. You use to go left around the tree and then do a 225 degree to a 230 degree turn before climbing a tight tech challenge. Years ago, someone decided that the tree was "harassing their mellow", and they stomped it to death. So now you can ride around the outside of where the tree was, and it makes the move a whole lot easier. (Mikesse is shown on the video taking the easy line to the right of the tree). He says he use to make the move 30% of the time and now he can make it 95% of the time. There was nothing preventing Mikesse from taking the original line, as his friend skippy did.

5:25. The cave switchback. He and Skippy failed every attempt. I think they filmed themselves 4 or 5 times. It is a very tight turn with a ledge to go up from a dead stop.

6:14 Pile of rocks where a b-line was. Skippy failed to ride the a-line. Mikesee failed to ride the a-line. The b-line was several feet from the a-line and was still somewhat of a challenge and would have no effect on his experience attempting to ride the a-line.

7:00 Closet switchback. There was what he called a wall of rocks and branches piled up to block the b-line shortcut, to avoid riding the very tight turn over rocks and against a tall boulder that will likely grab your handlebars. Mikesee stated; people will come thru and shortcut the line (he said as he picks up a rock from "the line" and removes it so he can better ride it). They'll straight-line the thing, which is easy, your grandma could do it in her wheelchair. There is no challenge to it whatsoever. There is no reason anybody should have to shortcut it.

Mikesse, can you please go back out to Moore Fun and video your grandma riding her wheelchair down the b-line. We want proof of your claims.

Also, Mikesee also failed to ride the a-line, despite a great track stand. He bumped his handlebars into the giant boulder to his left. I can think of several reasons riders would want to shortcut that a-line. Maybe one in 1000 riders could clean it. To most of the others, it is bad trail design and a hazard.

I'm going to have to finish this post later. Meeting a rider from REI this morning and showing him my tech route I hope to keep from being eliminated from a preserve. Maybe I can get a picture or two.









I admit I don't have the greatest tech skills. I crashed about a second after this picture was taken.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> Try not to let being a mod go to your head, slapheadmofo. It won't end well. I don't mind your neg applause. But try to pretend you have a job description that does not include cursing at members.


Nor does it include suffering thread-jacking egocentric assholes. 
Maybe you should see if you can get my pay docked. Or better yet, stfu and go crawl back under your rock in the AZ forum, or to one of your incredibly pretentious wanna-be-music-critic threads.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Boris, based on the amount of time you spent on this thread and your confession that your skills are sub-par.....you may want to consider riding a little more and typing a lot less.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

mileslong said:


> Boris, based on the amount of time you spent on this thread and your confession that your skills are sub-par.....you may want to consider riding a little more and typing a lot less.


But then the climate change thread would actually die! 

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Boris Badenov said:


> I watched the Vimeo video, with narration from Mikesee.


Four pages and half a dozen book-length posts into the thread and you finally watch the video posted in the op?

WTF man?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

kpdemello said:


> Four pages and half a dozen book-length posts into the thread and you finally watch the video posted in the op?
> 
> WTF man?


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:ut:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> more technical trail for lesser skilled riders


A technical trail for people without the skill to ride a technical trail?

Say what?


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Times change and sports evolve. I like that you guys are into that sort of stuff but to be honest, if turns are built so tight that you have to do those weird trials moves people are going to find ways that feel better and smoother. Your skills are legit but I'm personally not into that sort of thing, it's not 1997. Today I would never build lines like that and actually expect them to not eventually have go-arounds on them. Maybe have option lines? Just because some people don't like your type of lines doesn't mean you can't share the trail and offer different experiences. I think if you created some well built easier option lines you might find out you and your couple of buddies are the only ones still interested in those sorts of moves.

Or you can keep throwing rocks and sticks to block stuff but that seems like a silly and futile battle that isn't worth the effort imo.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

raisingarizona said:


> Times change and sports evolve. I like that you guys are into that sort of stuff but to be honest, if turns are built so tight that you have to do those weird trials moves people are going to find ways that feel better and smoother. Your skills are legit but I'm personally not into that sort of thing, it's not 1997. Today I would never build lines like that and actually expect them to not eventually have go-arounds on them. Maybe have option lines? Just because some people don't like your type of lines doesn't mean you can't share the trail and offer different experiences. I think if you created some well built easier option lines you might find out you and your couple of buddies are the only ones still interested in those sorts of moves.
> 
> Or you can keep throwing rocks and sticks to block stuff but that seems like a silly and futile battle that isn't worth the effort imo.


 It's a double black diamond trail with other trails right near by. Do you ski a double black diamond trail and complain about the steep tight turns with trees and moguls? Do you take a shovel and make and easy line to the side of the ski trail? Same thing.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

raisingarizona said:


> Times change and sports evolve. I like that you guys are into that sort of stuff but to be honest, if turns are built so tight that you have to do those weird trials moves people are going to find ways that feel better and smoother. Your skills are legit but I'm personally not into that sort of thing, it's not 1997. Today I would never build lines like that and actually expect them to not eventually have go-arounds on them. Maybe have option lines? Just because some people don't like your type of lines doesn't mean you can't share the trail and offer different experiences. I think if you created some well built easier option lines you might find out you and your couple of buddies are the only ones still interested in those sorts of moves.
> 
> Or you can keep throwing rocks and sticks to block stuff but that seems like a silly and futile battle that isn't worth the effort imo.


Lot of assumptions there.

Well designed b-lines are great. Nothing against them at all; some of my favorite builders are masters at incorporating them.

Guess what though? There are folks out there that, even with a really sweet b-line put in place for them, will still modify the A-line so...I dunno...they can feel better about themselves for not having to use the b-line? I see it all the time around here. There's a nice slab of granite with a little step-up onto it and a little step down off and there's a well built b-line around it; some entitled but unskilled riders will invariably take it on themselves to try to turn the steps into rolls, or steep rolls into mellow rolls, or tough rock gardens into easy rock gardens. It's not enough for these people that they've been given a way to keep their 'flow' going without having to up their skill level, they feel the need to remove any challenge beyond their level completely from any section of trail they get near. Maybe we can start sending them all to Arizona.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

leeboh said:


> It's a double black diamond trail with other trails right near by. Do you ski a double black diamond trail and complain about the steep tight turns with trees and moguls? Do you take a shovel and make and easy line to the side of the ski trail? Same thing.


Not really. Most mtn bikers are destination/loop oriented. When riding from the most popular trailhead (Rustler's) the only way you can make a loop with Marys, Steves, Mack Ridge, etc is by taking Moore Fun back to Rustlers. My guess is a lot of folks without the requisite skills end up on Moore's even though the map indicates that the trail is very difficult. http://www.copmoba.org/userfiles/files/kokopelli-loops-east.pdf

The skiing analogy doesn't really apply. Besides a lot of ski areas will simply groom a run adjacent to the steep mogul run simply so folks have a bailout. That's why b lines are a logical answer but perhaps not workable in the Moore Fun terrain. I agree with raisingarizona in that some of the technical lines on Moore Fun are old school tech. The majority of riders (especially those going to Fruita) are not into or ever exposed to that sort of trials maneuver tech riding. If there was another option nearby I bet the sanitzers would leave the trail alone. There is no other way to get back to the parking lot (if making a loop) with the outer trails except by taking the frontage road.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> Lot of assumptions there.
> 
> Well designed b-lines are great. Nothing against them at all; some of my favorite builders are masters at incorporating them.
> 
> Guess what though? There are folks out there that, even with a really sweet b-line put in place for them, will still modify the A-line so...I dunno...they can feel better about themselves for not having to use the b-line? I see it all the time around here. There's a nice slab of granite with a little step-up onto it and a little step down off and there's a well built b-line around it; some entitled but unskilled riders will invariably take it on themselves to try to turn the steps into rolls, or steep rolls into mellow rolls, or tough rock gardens into easy rock gardens. It's not enough for these people that they've been given a way to keep their 'flow' going without having to up their skill level, they feel the need to remove any challenge beyond their level completely from any section of trail they get near. Maybe we can start sending them all to Arizona.


Even expert riders will take the easy way out. Good points though. It amazes me the disinterest in many of the riders I know in progressing their skills. Even as bikes get better and better they are unwilling to step up their game. Maybe it's just a risk/reward dealio, age thing, or just laziness/fitness but raisingarizona brings up a valid point as well. Once a b line goes in, the a line is often abandoned. Perhaps because the A line wasn't that well designed in the first place.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's fun for a lot of people. Some of those tight and awkward turns look like design flaws and annoying to ride imo but I'm all for creating something for everyone and that's why an easier and flowy-er option line makes sense from what I could tell on that video. the few that still want those tight moves can still have them but I'd bet 100 bucks that those old lines would become irrelevant.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rockman said:


> Even expert riders will take the easy way out. Good points though. It amazes me the disinterest in many of the riders I know in progressing their skills. Even as bikes get better and better they are unwilling to step up their game. Maybe it's just a risk/reward dealio, age thing, or just laziness/fitness but raisingarizona brings up a valid point as well. Once a b line goes in, the a line is often abandoned. Perhaps because the A line wasn't that well designed in the first place.


Not typically the case around here. The trails are well built, and the a-lines get more than their share of love, as there is a very strong regional appreciation for technical riding. But there's always those few self-serving dinks that refuse to leave well-enough alone and seem to feel there shouldn't be any lines anywhere that are beyond their level (I'm pretty sure at least one of the novelists in this thread said was his approach as the self-appointed 'decider').


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Well, as long as nobody is chasing teenage girls.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Lot of assumptions there.
> 
> Guess what though? There are folks out there that, even with a really sweet b-line put in place for them, will still modify the A-line so...I dunno...they can feel better about themselves for not having to use the b-line? I see it all the time around here. There's a nice slab of granite with a little step-up onto it and a little step down off and there's a well built b-line around it; some entitled but unskilled riders will invariably take it on themselves to try to turn the steps into rolls, or steep rolls into mellow rolls, or tough rock gardens into easy rock gardens. It's not enough for these people that they've been given a way to keep their 'flow' going without having to up their skill level, they feel the need to remove any challenge beyond their level completely from any section of trail they get near. Maybe we can start sending them all to Arizona.


We get that around here too. It's annoying af. I've seen kids try and fill in the drop in between the Wasabi step down jump or open a fall line gutter around the World Cup Chute (a classic test piece and arguably the most intimidating line in flagstaff) on Lower Wasabi even though there was already a much more sustainable and approachable B-line established. what can you do though? Apparently a lot of the younger and new riders think they know better but that's the thing about the youts, their ego often outweighs their experience.


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## GeePhroh (Jan 13, 2004)

Hey FC, If this thread hits 1000 does it get its own forum?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

raisingarizona said:


> Times change and sports evolve. I like that you guys are into that sort of stuff but to be honest, if turns are built so tight that you have to do those weird trials moves people are going to find ways that feel better and smoother. Your skills are legit but I'm personally not into that sort of thing, it's not 1997. Today I would never build lines like that and actually expect them to not eventually have go-arounds on them. Maybe have option lines? Just because some people don't like your type of lines doesn't mean you can't share the trail and offer different experiences. I think if you created some well built easier option lines you might find out you and your couple of buddies are the only ones still interested in those sorts of moves.
> 
> Or you can keep throwing rocks and sticks to block stuff but that seems like a silly and futile battle that isn't worth the effort imo.


Dumbest post in this thread. Well, hold on let me scroll back a bit. . . . yep it's the dumbest.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mileslong said:


> Boris, based on the amount of time you spent on this thread and your confession that your skills are sub-par.....you may want to consider riding a little more and typing a lot less.


When did I say the words sub par? I said not the greatest. This morning I rode with an expert on a tech trail and watched him crash hard once and fail on most of the boulders the route went up and onto and then down again. I walked one "Marquee" challenge, as Mikesee called them. One day I'll give it a try. Satisfied? Now can you take your seat up in the peanut gallery and sit still?


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

kpdemello said:


> Four pages and half a dozen book-length posts into the thread and you finally watch the video posted in the op?
> 
> WTF man?


There was more than one video in the OP, along with a lot of photos. I initially watched the first video, where Mikesee rode the tech section in the opposite direction as in the final video. It does make sense that you would ignore the commentary and only pay attention to what you hoped was something you could mock. Just more peanut gallery heckling, I suppose.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Dumbest post in this thread. Well, hold on let me scroll back a bit. . . . yep it's the dumbest.


30,000 posts. That includes starting threads like; lifes most embarrassing moments, the oxymoron: thread, do you believe in Bigfoot, slow jazz site tonight-anybody else having issues, youtube comedy videos of some of the least funny comedians to ever live, something about hamburgers, a creepy tree thread, some awful music posts, and the need to post a response in almost every single thread that gets started in Off-camber. Does that just about cover your entire social life the past ten years?

Try to understand; (quoting from Bourne Identity, I think) You are standing in a puddle of your own pee and you don't have the proper shoes. This thread is way out of your pay grade as the off-camber jester. Go have a glass of warm milk and take a nap.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Boris Badenov said:


> I admit I don't have the greatest tech skills. I crashed about a second after this picture was taken.


Maybe you should try some of switchblade2's trails, I hear they've been improved to enhance the experience for riders like you.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Mikesee authorizing himself to patrol his favorite trail and expel all who violate his code of etiquette.

_________________________________________________________

Back to Mikesee's educational video, and the MTBR / CSI synopsis.

At 8:00. Yet another marquee move. The move has been sanitized. The line is to come over the boulder. There is a new cheater line. Mikesee states he is authorizing himself to change the existing line, and then proceeds to move some rocks. Mikesee says "they" have completely avoided the difficult line, but the b-line is also visibly difficult. We may need to get his grandma back out on her wheelchair to find out one way of the other. Then Mikesee rides the original line, according to him, and he smacks his bottom bracket hard as he does it.

Mikesee summarizes by saying ignorance is probably the theme tying the modifications together. "They don't realize that in cheating themselves out of becoming better riders, they're cheating all of us."

May I just say that Mikesee does not speak on my behalf. Nobody in Colorado is cheating me out of anything. This is also true for most people living in Colorado and riding these trails. They aren't complaining. Mikesee is complaining and he is taking his complaints to other states and telling anyone who will listen, that they should be upset that Mikesee's riding experience has been disrupted by b-lines he can see next to his sacred a-line. It is such sacrilege, that he has to destroy those b-lines that were never interfering with his a-lines, and hopes to form a posse to track down and punish the perpetrators of the b-lines.

Here's a thought; just ride whatever line you want on Moore Fun. There is no need to spend hours and hours tearing apart the b-lines that you don't have to ride if you don't want to ride. How many times are you going to play cat and mouse with some local riders? What if you spot them re-establishing their b-line? What type of punishment are you planning to dole out?

Mikesee got so worked up that he embellished the degree to which his favorite trail was altered. He embellished when he said his grandma could ride the new line in her wheelchair. He admitted most people who ride Moore Fun are not having fun and are bleeding and walking their bikes. That is what he thinks is part of a great ride. That's not what everyone else thinks makes a great ride.

Spock said the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few or the one (Mikesee). Moore Fun can be made to accommodate Mikesee and those not wanting to get bloody. The video made it clear there was plenty of room for b-lines and they did not alter his a-line. But rather than go out and ride this 4.6 mile trail and improve his fitness that he says is not so good, he is going to keep stopping for hours and hours and re-working the rocks to his satisfaction, knowing someone will return and harsh his mellow and create the b-line again.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

This is a very long post - should I read it?


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Axe said:


> This is a very long post - should I read it?


Only if, for some weird reason, you're looking for a running trainwreck example of some really fragile and pathetic egos. And/or if you're looking for a reason to drive a nail through your forehead.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Boris Badenov said:


> 30,000 posts. That includes starting threads like; lifes most embarrassing moments, the oxymoron: thread, do you believe in Bigfoot, slow jazz site tonight-anybody else having issues, youtube comedy videos of some of the least funny comedians to ever live, something about hamburgers, a creepy tree thread, some awful music posts, and the need to post a response in almost every single thread that gets started in Off-camber. Does that just about cover your entire social life the past ten years?
> 
> Try to understand; (quoting from Bourne Identity, I think) You are standing in a puddle of your own pee and you don't have the proper shoes. This thread is way out of your pay grade as the off-camber jester. Go have a glass of warm milk and take a nap.


I look in your face and laugh. :lol: You stalked my profile to see what threads I've started, how much of a weirdo are you? :yikes:

While you're at it go into the rep count, Jack. How many red reps have you got just in this thread alone? My threads are full of good times and laughter. Something you obviously lack. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. Got anything else? It looks to me like you've been the biggest jackass in this thread. All you've been doing is bragging throughout the entire thread. In fact the the post I'm quoting is full of it.

One question for you: Why so full of hate? This thread alone hate is all you've portrayed. I fear stalking your profile for that's all that will be there. Not worth my time, Jack.

I was going to give you a break on your outer self, it's something you can't help. But your inner self is just as ugly.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Smithhammer said:


> Only if, for some weird reason, you're looking for a running trainwreck example of some really fragile and pathetic egos. And/or if you're looking for a reason to drive a nail through your forehead.


No, nothing like that. Would not read then.

As I said, I showed up to read about pervert Alabama judges.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I look in your face and laugh. :lol: You stalked my profile to see what threads I've started, how much of a weirdo are you? :yikes:
> 
> While you're at it go into the rep count, Jack.


Is that so, mister self-appointed judge and jury? Actually, I clicked on off-camber and scrolled down. You've spread your seed just about everywhere. But only a professional doctor could explain what 30,000 posts tells us about your personal life. I'll leave it to them.

I don't understand the obsession over rep points. I have never sent one and don't know how. To me, it's a cowards way of avoiding having to stand up and make an argument for what he believes in. I can see why certain people here embrace them.

I think it's the winter weather that has gotten all of you so miffed at what professional trail builders have to say. Cabin fever. If you love to ride, vs. write posts about Bigfoot, you could do a lot worse than move to the southwest. We ride 365 days a year, while you view pictures of others riding on trails and crying about trail sanitization.

While you were crafting a new thread about your favorite reality show, I got out and mapped a new trail route to submit to a local land preserve for it's upcoming expansion.

View attachment 0061_001.pdf


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

^ Love yourself much?


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

raisingarizona said:


> Times change and sports evolve. I like that you guys are into that sort of stuff but to be honest, if turns are built so tight that you have to do those weird trials moves people are going to find ways that feel better and smoother. Your skills are legit but I'm personally not into that sort of thing, it's not 1997. Today I would never build lines like that and actually expect them to not eventually have go-arounds on them. Maybe have option lines? Just because some people don't like your type of lines doesn't mean you can't share the trail and offer different experiences. I think if you created some well built easier option lines you might find out you and your couple of buddies are the only ones still interested in those sorts of moves.
> 
> Or you can keep throwing rocks and sticks to block stuff but that seems like a silly and futile battle that isn't worth the effort imo.


Finally a well-reasoned post. However, I disagree in the case of Moore Fun. It may be an "old school" technical trail, but that's how it was designed; and that aspect ought to be preserved. I personally would not design a trail nowadays with switchbacks that tight, because that's not my riding preference -- but that doesn't make it right to change the nature of an old trail. The fact that B-lines "might" get created is irrelevant. If they're not sanctioned by the land manager, then they're not okay. On a personal note, if a trail is going to have tight, technical switchbacks, I want them to be REALLY tight and technical, so they're a challenge and not an annoyance. The fact that modern riders are not "into" that sort of riding is also irrelevant. There are people who do still enjoy it, and there should be something left for them, as again -- there are plenty of EASY flow trails for other people to choose from.

Again, nobody is pointing a gun at anyone's head and saying "you MUST ride this trail or die trying." Free country, y'know?

I'm certain I'll be labeled by some in this thread as a satanist nazi pedophile for saying what I just did. I apologize for the fallout that's sure to come...


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

raisingarizona said:


> Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's fun for a lot of people. Some of those tight and awkward turns look like design flaws and annoying to ride imo but I'm all for creating something for everyone and that's why an easier and flowy-er option line makes sense from what I could tell on that video. the few that still want those tight moves can still have them but I'd bet 100 bucks that those old lines would become irrelevant.


But must _everything_ be for _everyone_? Again, I'll reference Canada, particularly Vancouver's North Shore. There are and were trails there that only a handful of people _in the world_ ever rode. Stuff that would truly make Moore Fun and anything in the U.S. but the Redbull Rampage site look like a walk in the park.

And yet, the North Shore still thrived, and indeed still has a robust culture of people who love to ride gnarly stuff. There are some easier trails there as well. The average 10-year-old kid in North Vancouver can outride most "expert" riders from the U.S. Among the numerous times I've ridden in North Van, it was clear that the culture shares a love for the trails, a love for the outdoors, and a love for nature. They just happen to also love REALLY technical riding. These are not people geared toward "tearing **** up" and raping the land.

Many years ago, I was there on a trip with friends and wanted to test my absolute limits. So I sought out the infamous trail known as "GMG."
GMG could not be found on any map. It was not openly talked about. But it was there, near the top of Mt. Fromme, at the end of a near 2-hour climb. One of my friends who was with me used to live in Van and was introduced to GMG by none other than Wade Simmons (who, by the way, is a standup guy and deserves nothing but respect from all mountain bikers). Anyhow, GMG was the real deal. Imagine the most disturbing horror movie you've ever seen. That was this trail. F---ing hairball. Trust me, I wanted to ride it, but I met my match that day. I couldn't/_wouldn't_ ride all the lines, but ended up cleaning about 70% of it. I ended the long ride in one piece (one of my friends unfortunately did not), and was satisfied by my performance.

Not once;_ not EVER_ did the thought occur to me that "someone needs to go make that **** easier."

The fact that it was there -- that some people could actually ride the whole thing -- that was motivating to me. I have since moved on from that level of riding, due to self-preservation and family. I _choose_ not to ride that level of trail anymore (not that I can find GMG's match anywhere).

But it's a pompous, megalomaniacal _bastard_ that makes the decision that NOBODY should have access to that type of trail.

My $.02


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## rippling over canyons (Jun 11, 2004)

Switchblade2 said:


> Boris I really enjoyed your synopsis of Micksee's video. It pointed out how b lines are helpful to lesser skilled riders to enjoy the MOORE FUN trail. I really loook forward to your completed synopsis. Thanks again for all your work building new trails and maintaining the existing ones. I wish you success in developing the new more technical trail for lesser skilled riders like myself and 65 year old wife. I just got her a new bike for her birthday and I hope she enjoys the stability of 2.6 inch tires. Keep up the good work.


You guys still don't get it. The point is difficult trails are fun to ride. Not all features will be cleaned. B-lines are unnecessary and braid the trail. It is OK for "lesser skilled riders" to not make every feature. They will attempt what they can, walk what they can't make and still have an enjoyable time on an advanced trail. We don't need improvements, we need technical trails, untouched by you. So, b lines are not helpful to lesser skilled riders. They do not help them to enjoy the trail. They hinder their development and deny the capability to have a choice in difficulty. Do not advocate modifying trails to your ability. You aren't doing anyone any favors and reducing this recreation to a least common denominator activity.

I have grown tired of saying you still don't get it, so this will be my final post in this thread.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

rockman said:


> Not really. Most mtn bikers are destination/loop oriented. When riding from the most popular trailhead (Rustler's) the only way you can make a loop with Marys, Steves, Mack Ridge, etc is by taking Moore Fun back to Rustlers.
> 
> There is no other way to get back to the parking lot (if making a loop) with the outer trails except by taking the frontage road.


You can loop back to Rustler's from Mack Ridge via the frontage road, or Wrangler, or Mary's. 3 choices, 2 of them trail.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

raisingarizona said:


> Times change and sports evolve. I like that you guys are into that sort of stuff but to be honest, if turns are built so tight that you have to do those weird trials moves people are going to find ways that feel better and smoother. Your skills are legit but I'm personally not into that sort of thing, it's not 1997. Today I would never build lines like that and actually expect them to not eventually have go-arounds on them. Maybe have option lines? Just because some people don't like your type of lines doesn't mean you can't share the trail and offer different experiences. I think if you created some well built easier option lines you might find out you and your couple of buddies are the only ones still interested in those sorts of moves.
> 
> Or you can keep throwing rocks and sticks to block stuff but that seems like a silly and futile battle that isn't worth the effort imo.


As has been mentioned ad infinitum within this very thread, Moore Fun is *one* trail at a destination riding area with 6 (7?) other trails, all of them levels less technical.

If technical isn't your thing -- sweet -- ride one, or all, of the other trails that start from the same spot. No problemo, everybody's happy.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

cookieMonster said:


> But must _everything_ be for _everyone_?
> 
> But it's a pompous, megomaniacal _bastard_ that makes the decision that NOBODY should have access to that type of trail.
> 
> My $.02


And a rational, reasonable $.02 it is. Thanks for chiming in.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

rippling over canyons said:


> You guys still don't get it. The point is difficult trails are fun to ride.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I do get it. Difficult trails are fun to ride...sometimes. sometimes they are not fun to ride. It depends on how they were designed and how they were built. Your mistake is thinking all difficult trails are exactly the same. I can take you to a difficult trail that goes up a 25% grade. It cannot be ridden. Fun? Not fun? The Portal in Moab is signed to remind people that riders attempting the challenge have died. Fun? Not fun?
> 
> ...


The one thing we know for certain on MTBR is when someone says this is their final post in a thread, it is not their final post in the thread. See posts by cookie monster and Mikesee promising they were done. I guess being winter, they have nothing better to do.

Some lesser riders having fun (according to you);


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mikesee said:


> As has been mentioned ad infinitum within this very thread, Moore Fun is *one* trail at a destination riding area with 6 (7?) other trails, all of them levels less technical.
> 
> If technical isn't your thing -- sweet -- ride one, or all, of the other trails that start from the same spot. No problemo, everybody's happy.


We get it. If people do as Mikesee says, everybody (Mikesee) is happy. None of the b-lines in your video affected you riding the a-lines. You just didn't want them there, because the b-line actually does mean that everybody is happy, accept you. Now go make a new video of your grandma riding her wheelchair down that b-line, and cleaning it. And can you and cookie monster quit being so melodramatic and announcing you are done posting in this thread and then coming right back again...and again?


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Switchblade2 said:


> Mikesee do you have authorization from the BLM to slash or dismantle B lines on Moore Fun? You remind me of others that make changes to trails. Can you please share any official volunteer agreements you have to do such work? I will assume a lack of such an agreement means you are not authorized to do any work on MOORE FUN. Are you violating the law when you or others remove rock work on MOORE FUN?


How do you know when to use all caps? Do you hit the keyboard harder? Do you say them out loud?


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

How unfortunate that a thread with a well thought out written and visual presentation on the virtues and values of "old school" technical trails has devolved into this troll feeding sh%t show. 

It's really simple: If you can't ride it walk it, if you don't want to walk it go somewhere else.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

I discovered more evidence or lesser riders having fun, according to rippling. Bleeding, breaking your collar bone, going to urgent care, it's a hoot. I recall a friend named Mike King, at age 24, crashed during a warm-up run on a race course in Idaho City, where my wife was also racing. His visor hooked a branch of a manzanita, that should have been cut back, and it snapped his neck, severing his spinal cord. Thankfully, they save his life. We drove to Denver, to visit him at Craig Hospital (where Christopher Reeves went through rehab), where Mike learned how to be a quadriplegic and blow in a straw to run his wheelchair, before moving back in with his parents in Texas for the rest of his life. I don't recall him saying how much fun it was for him to loose the feeling in his arms and legs.

















































This one has an a-line, b-line, and maybe a c-line. Triple the sanitizing.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

No, you don't get it. Not at all. And when confronted with logical, reasoned arguments from a viewpoint differing from your own, you resort to personal attacks, slippery slope and straw man arguments, as well as stereotyping your opponent into a fictitious mold that exists only in your decidedly narrow mind.

Those photos you linked: Every single one of those people made a choice to participate in those experiences. I can assure you none of them were forced to ride or walk those trails. Additionally, in each instance, I can just about guarantee you that there was a less-challenging riding opportunity within a half-hour's drive from those locations.

I'm glad you brought up the Portal trail. That's a perfect example of a naturally sustainable trail that has been dumbed-down by people like you who assume that since you can't clean it all, there's a problem with the trail. When I say naturally sustainable, you can't argue with that because that trail, especially the portion after the cliff exposure on the descent, is perhaps 90% solid rock surface. To be sure, it is still a pretty technical trail, but I might add that literally nobody finds themselves in the middle of Portal Trail wondering "Gee, how did I get into this mess?" From either entry point to the trail, you know what you're getting into, and can choose to exit the trail and ride somewhere else.

The first time I rode it was about 20 years ago. The last time I rode it, I had a good time, but noticed that a lot of the nasty features had been "cleaned up" and made much easier. The trail was no longer a challenge for me -- and _less fun_ because of it. The decision to "improve" those lines was made by people who were not satisfied riding the countless easy trails in Moab that were within their skillset. No, they had to bring a trail with realistically very few "b-line" options down to their level. And people who want a challenge have to just suck it up and accept it. Additionally, I find it interesting that in an age where the bikes are so much more capable than ever before, that's when we're starting to see this phenomenon more and more often.

Final point -- again, you make assumptions about me and other posters in this thread without any factual basis. It is winter in Montana, for sure. But I still ride almost every day, snow, blizzard, temperatures in the teens, and in the dark. I have kept up with this thread because I have insomnia and it is a topic very important to me. Your daily diatribes have left me significantly concerned about the future of my sport. As I continue to see ridiculous posts from members such as yourself, I will continue to address them. We are approaching a weekend, and thus I will have more time to contribute. So, if you'd like to continue vomiting your narrow-minded arguments, I'm game.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

So..what's your point? Mountain biking is dangerous?

In other news: Water is wet.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

According to data compiled by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), in 2016, 37,461 people were killed in 34,436 crashes, an average of 102 per day.


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

rockman said:


> Not really. Most mtn bikers are destination/loop oriented. When riding from the most popular trailhead (Rustler's) the only way you can make a loop with Marys, Steves, Mack Ridge, etc is by taking Moore Fun back to Rustlers. My guess is a lot of folks without the requisite skills end up on Moore's even though the map indicates that the trail is very difficult. http://www.copmoba.org/userfiles/files/kokopelli-loops-east.pdf
> 
> The skiing analogy doesn't really apply. Besides a lot of ski areas will simply groom a run adjacent to the steep mogul run simply so folks have a bailout. That's why b lines are a logical answer but perhaps not workable in the Moore Fun terrain. I agree with raisingarizona in that some of the technical lines on Moore Fun are old school tech. The majority of riders (especially those going to Fruita) are not into or ever exposed to that sort of trials maneuver tech riding. If there was another option nearby I bet the sanitzers would leave the trail alone. There is no other way to get back to the parking lot (if making a loop) with the outer trails except by taking the frontage road.


They will be able to ride the new Wranglers extension back to close the loop by spring.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

cookieMonster said:


> I'm glad you brought up the Portal trail. That's a perfect example of a naturally sustainable trail that has been dumbed-down by people like you... The last time I rode it, I had a good time, but noticed that a lot of the nasty features had been "cleaned up" and made much easier. The trail was no longer a challenge for me -- and _less fun_ because of it.
> 
> Final point -- again, you make assumptions about me and other posters in this thread without any factual basis.


Why don't we look at the factual basis you seem to want to hide.



cookieMonster said:


> You crazy bro? I _haul ass_ in Moab. Portal is a little slower but what it lacks in speed it makes up for in technicality. There's also alternate lines on most of these trails that you just have to have an eye for. You're not limited to just the 'trail' it's solid rock.
> 
> If you don't have fun at Moab, I think you're missing part of your brain.


So this past September, everything in Moab was great. Portal was technical and fun. But now you remember things differently? How convenient.



cookieMonster said:


> I've been playing guitar seriously for about 22 years. For the last 15 years it has been dedicated to extreme metal... I actually have a one-man atmospheric black metal band/project... I'll post a song or two if anyone is interested.
> 
> It's REAL heavy ****, just a forewarning.


Seriously? You have dedicated 15 years of your life to extreme metal? And you have children and you teach 5th graders? Do the students parents know this?



cookieMonster said:


> I used to wear a moto helmet for DH... I used to hit 50 mph on my DH bike at least once a day at the resort and in one or two races...





cookieMonster said:


> I went just as fast in the early 90s on my Schwinn Moab fully-rigid 26er. Hit 40+ mph in the woods and over 50mph several times on dirt.


Sure cookie monster, you never made any of these statements. You were probably hacked by Russians.



cookieMonster said:


> ... I also clear the trail nearest my house whenever trees fall down, and do a bit of maintenance to the trail regarding drainage.


Sanitizing trails in your own backyard. Did you authorize yourself to do that?



cookieMonster said:


> The ranger made it sound like the trails always have been closed to bikes.
> 
> * I've actually been illegally riding many trails (unknowingly) for a large number of years now *-- always figured that if they're all open to biking in the summer, then why would they ever consider closing them in the winter? *Guess I was wrong on that.*





cookieMonster said:


> I've been a 5th-grade teacher for 4 years now. There have been moments and even whole years of absolute joy in this profession -- it really is what I was meant to do. But the last year (and this year so far) have really taken a toll on me,... I have come close to landing many jobs, but just can't edge out the usual candidates who have 20+ years of experience. So, in a nutshell, I work at a rural school 1/2 hr. away from home and earn $10,000/yr. less than I would earn with the same job 25 miles away.
> 
> But that isn't even really all of it. The class I've got this year is the "perfect storm" mix of issues that make me earn every cent of my measly paycheck. Roughly half of my 22 kids are on ADHD medication, and their dosage is apparently not enough to sufficiently tackle the problem.
> 
> In essence, I don't really get to teach much from the educational standards on a day-to-day basis; I spend far too much time teaching manners, how to handle frustration, how NOT to throw a punch when you're frustrated with someone, and so on.


Great, a dark metal guitar playing 5th grade teacher, who is in over his head, and spends his day teaching manners. Are you sure you are underpaid for those 170 days of work each year, while those factory workers are putting in 240+ days of work? And the whole reason schools started telling parents their kid was unteachable and had ADD, had to be doped, was to make teachers and administrators jobs easier, and to avoid confrontations with parents. Teachers made the mess to begin with. They're eleven years old. You shouldn't have to dope them up to teach them. Maybe you should try playing some dark metal music for them. That will put them in the mood to learn (to murder). You dedicated the last 15 years of your life to extreme metal music and can't understand why you are a failure at teaching 5th graders.

When you said you were done with this thread, you should have stayed done. Downhillers who ride their Schwinn Moab's 40 or 50 mph and dedicate their lives to extreme metal music, need to keep a low profile, for the sake of society and those poor 5th grade students.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Really packing 'em in now! :thumbsup:


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

*Get back to work! (or at least ride way more!)*

Too much? Too intense?

















(Big Mountain Enduro Championship course lines, Glorieta, NM. This is Jagged Axe.)

New Mexico is filled with amazing trails. Many of them are super techy. Many of them are old horse or hiking trails that have been adapted into mountain biking trails. Some of these trails have had modifications for increased sustainability over time. Most of them are super rugged. NM is the 5th largest state and the 36th lowest population--with almost 800,000 of that living in Albuquerque--and the 48th lowest ranked state for population density. Unfortunately we are also quite poor--45th poorest state. 34% of the state is owned by the Feds.

We have several active mountain bike advocacy groups, some with affiliations to IMBA and others with their bearings more towards the STC. There is a very spirited debate in NM between these two groups and how to propose management of our trails. Generally, this debate is civilized, quite unlike what is taking place here.

This thread is a demonstration of how poorly people act in public. While there is a certain anonymity in this forum, it isn't too difficult to determine who people are in real life. In other words, we are people in real life. We must remember that and resist the temptations to act as if our "adversaries" are other than real people, or even human--with all of the faults that entails. By acting in the manner set-forth by most of the posts in this thread, we embody everything which is wrong in America today.

Colorado has some superb mountain biking. Arizona too has some awesome stuff. (Seems like most of the posts on this thread come from these two states) No one is this forum has supreme authority for anything--except for their personal behavior. If people on these forums represent how people in your respective states act towards one another, please don't come here!

(BTW, I have ridden Moore Fun. It is a cool little trail.)


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Now I remember why I don’t hang out in Passion. 

I will show myself out.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Beastmaster, nice post. Merry Christmas.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Boris Badenov said:


> ...Great, a dark metal guitar playing 5th grade teacher, who is in over his head, and spends his day teaching manners. Are you sure you are underpaid for those 170 days of work each year, while those factory workers are putting in 240+ days of work? And the whole reason schools started telling parents their kid was unteachable and had ADD, had to be doped, was to make teachers and administrators jobs easier, and to avoid confrontations with parents. Teachers made the mess to begin with. They're eleven years old. You shouldn't have to dope them up to teach them. Maybe you should try playing some dark metal music for them. That will put them in the mood to learn (to murder). You dedicated the last 15 years of your life to extreme metal music and can't understand why you are a failure at teaching 5th graders.
> 
> When you said you were done with this thread, you should have stayed done. Downhillers who ride their Schwinn Moab's 40 or 50 mph and dedicate their lives to extreme metal music, need to keep a low profile, for the sake of society and those poor 5th grade students.


You are way out of line and should be banned. Go back to annoying people in the AZ forum, please.

Beastmaster, thank you for your classy post.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

Boris Badenov said:


> I discovered more evidence or lesser riders having fun, according to rippling. Bleeding, breaking your collar bone, going to urgent care, it's a hoot.
> 
> View attachment 1172519


It's pretty simple:

You are a liar. You are a liar who relishes hyperbole as you unsuccessfully try to make a point.

That rider is truly having fun. It's a lie to claim that he is bleeding, breaking his collar bone, going to urgent care, etc.

In summary:

You're a liar.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

Boris Badenov said:


> The one thing we know for certain on MTBR is when someone says this is their final post in a thread, it is not their final post in the thread. See posts by cookie monster and Mikesee promising they were done. I guess being winter, they have nothing better to do.
> 
> Some lesser riders having fun (according to you);
> 
> ...


These photos have nothing to do with the topic.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

Boris Badenov said:


> Why don't we look at the factual basis you seem to want to hide.
> 
> So this past September, everything in Moab was great. Portal was technical and fun. But now you remember things differently? How convenient.
> 
> ...


Clearing trees that fall over seems like basic necessary trail maintenance.

I think with your attitude you're the only one who should not be teaching 5th graders in this thread.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

beastmaster said:


> We must remember that and resist the temptations to act as if our "adversaries" are other than real people, or even human--with all of the faults that entails. By acting in the manner set-forth by most of the posts in this thread, we embody everything which is wrong in America today.


'Kumbaya' is great and all, but 'talk ****, get hit' still has numerous legitimate applications.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Group hug and a quick round of Kumbaya?


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Cleared2land said:


> Group hug and a quick round of Kumbaya?


No. Vaping and hand throwing are where it's at here!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Name dropping is cool.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

You are completely out of line. Also, more than a little sick, I think. I'm also wondering if I need to be concerned about the safety of myself and my family...

Great-- you can take old posts of mine, completely out of context mind you, and string them together to support the straw man you've made me out to be.

I stand by each and every one of those posts. Most of them are completely unrelated to this topic, and mostly responses to other topics.

Yes, I play and listen to metal music. I love it. My students AND parents AND colleagues love hearing me play. You could never understand it. You understand literally nothing about my profession. It is a hard job, but I am very good at what I do. My students come back and thank me YEARS later. That's all I'll say about that. Don't touch that subject again.

Get a life. Also, reported for harassment.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Portal doesn't remotely resemble what the tread rode like in the late 80s when I first started riding it. I could clean it fully rigid with a 72 degree head angle. I haven't ridden all the new stuff in Moab but I'm hard pressed to think of a trail that resembles Moore Fun. Rock Stacker maybe. Certainly not Capt Ahab.

I hit Canada this summer and didn't find trails like Moore Fun in Fernie, Revelstoke, or Rossland. The closest might have been Razor's Edge in Kanaskis. The user experience most advanced riders are looking for is a climb followed by a technical descent. I'm not even sure that has really changed over the years as bikes have gotten increasingly better and riders continue to test the limits. The next generation of riders are looking for technical moves that have some flow to them. Not the hard, awkward super tight switchbacks found on Moore Fun. Not that there isn't a place for a trail like that and I would especially enjoy it if I had it in my backyard as my 2 hour lunch ride,

As I work on a trail plan with other partners in Flagstaff overwhelmingly the preference is for trails like this: 




In Sedona they are coming to hit steep lines like HiLine: Video: Sedona's Hiline - Crankjoy: Mountain bike inspiration, gear reviews and trail beta.

The point being the sport is evolving and changing. The above two examples may or may not have been built by two individuals posting in this thread. They would likely have never been built by the land manager. Folks want flowy XC trails too but the era of a Moore Fun trail being built is fading. That's just not what most and even advanced riders are looking for. IMO and feel free to flame me but as an advocate trying to push through trail concepts a technical trail with awkward, track stand trials moves and super tight switchbacks is not the preference.

That said, my 2 cents is to leave Moore Fun alone. It should be maintained to the level as originally designed and built. Except where the local mtb community and the land manager deem a move or feature was poorly designed and should be changed. In short, it's a special trail and should not simply be dumbed down so the 90%r's can ride it without dabbing. If anything, really what this thread has devolved to is the user experience.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Ya'll cray cray, I thought OT was off. Going to pedal da fatty on some white concrete and icy ribbons of sweetness, peace out.


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

rockman said:


> ....bloviate....


Gotta be exhausting, trying to clean up after your Aspergery pals. Sadly, for you, the consensus about them is accurate.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Mrwhlr said:


> Gotta be exhausting, trying to clean up after your Aspergery pals. Sadly, for you, the consensus about them is accurate.


Nah, just bored at work. Hey, did you get a bike yet Mrwhir? And nice to see you back on mtbr. You must have gotten tired of the personal insults in the water softener forums.


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

rockman said:


> Nah, just bored at work. Hey, did you get a bike yet Mrwhir? And nice to see you back on mtbr. You must have gotten tired of the personal insults in the water softener forums.


My UPS routes are pretty exhausting lately, so no.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

rockman said:


> Portal doesn't remotely resemble what the tread rode like in the late 80s when I first started riding it. I could clean it fully rigid with a 72 degree head angle. I haven't ridden all the new stuff in Moab but I'm hard pressed to think of a trail that resembles Moore Fun. Rock Stacker maybe. Certainly not Capt Ahab.
> 
> I hit Canada this summer and didn't find trails like Moore Fun in Fernie, Revelstoke, or Rossland. The closest might have been Razor's Edge in Kanaskis. The user experience most advanced riders are looking for is a climb followed by a technical descent. I'm not even sure that has really changed over the years as bikes have gotten increasingly better and riders continue to test the limits. The next generation of riders are looking for technical moves that have some flow to them. Not the hard, awkward super tight switchbacks found on Moore Fun. Not that there isn't a place for a trail like that and I would especially enjoy it if I had it in my backyard as my 2 hour lunch ride,
> 
> ...


That first video sunset trail at mt elden?


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Streetdoctor said:


> That first video sunset trail at mt elden?


Mt Elden yes but not Sunset. Mostly Wasabi and Double D. The rider is arguably the fastest dude in Flag.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

You're taking what I said and twisting it around to fit your agenda. Never ONCE have I advocated in this thread that everything needs to be catered to the 1%. Not once. And I'm saying RIGHT NOW, again, I don't believe every trail should cater to the needs of the 1%. 

Some trails should.

Also, your view "what people want" is based on what exactly? Have you polled riders at trailheads? Where I live, the "1%ers" are really a lot more like "25%ers." Meaning a great many people are out enjoying technical trails and riding them well.

Also, agree to disagree on Portal. It's still one of my favorite trails in Moab, but it's less technical than it was 20 years ago, due to people stacking rocks to smooth it out and dumb it down. Still, it's not a 1%er trail. It never was technical enough to be considered that IMO.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

cookieMonster said:


> You're taking what I said and twisting it around to fit your agenda. Never ONCE have I advocated in this thread that everything needs to be catered to the 1%. Not once. And I'm saying RIGHT NOW, again, I don't believe every trail should cater to the needs of the 1%.
> 
> Some trails should.
> 
> ...


Not sure if your referring to me Cookie but that's a good question. How do we know what people want or what a 1%r is? As for me, I stick my head in bike shops, go to meetings, and ride with a lot of different people. Facebook is a way to connect with the younger generation of riders. Generally I find that most folks would prefer to complain than show up for a trail day or are just apathetic.

I do think the BLM/IMBA trail quality document is worth a read. I'm not sure what IMBA is advocating for anymore but generally what I get out of threads like this is a passion for trails. Not sure why it's got to get so personal (guess it's just ego and an unwillingness to listen to other's POV) but personally I want more and better trails. The more variety the better. Getting the land manager to give a **** is what we really should be worried about than a couple of moves getting dumbed down but whatever. The roots and rocks always come back.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I wasn't referring to your post, but I'm with you 100% on what you just said. Absolutely, I DO just want more trails of all varieties. But I want some that are really difficult. I don't need that many.

Actually, I have many within a 10-70 minute drive from my home that I adore. I am grateful for what I have. But I want some to remain difficult.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> Cookie I assume you were referring to me not rockman who I totally agree with that two months ago the Portal was more difficult then than 20 years ago when I first rode it. Fifteen years ago I use to hike a bike up it regularly. During those hikes I would install water diverters to reduce erosion potential. It may have slowed down some erosion due to fast moving water but no way was Mother Nature going to let me keep her from making that trail more challenging.
> 
> Do us all a favor and do a video of you riding the whole trail without any edits. I would love to see how you negotiate all those 1%'er sections that I refuse to ride.
> 
> Please don't cop out and not show us your great riding skills.


Why are you such a douche? Plenty of people ride portal fast. Mears averages over 13mph. Check strava if you want proof. I've only ridden it once and while it was super fun it didn't live up to the "tech" hype it receives. How further off topic can we take this? Do you sanitize full on DH trails too?


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

I’ve got a few videos posted but none of portal sorry. Like I said I’ve only ridden it once. Are you doubting that I rode the whole thing? 😂 Since when is this thread about everyone who doesnt share your viewpoint proving themselves to you? Someone needs to take your keyboard away or put you on meds.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Inside every biker there's a hiker......


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Switchblade2 said:


> Do us all a favor and do a video of you riding the whole trail without any edits. I would love to see how you negotiate all those 1%'er sections that I refuse to ride.
> 
> Please don't cop out and not show us your great riding skills.


Moab is a 10+ hr. drive for me --so it ain't happening soon. I don't have any footage of riding it. I received a GoPro as a Christmas gift last year and have been using it to film my local riding purely for my own enjoyment later -- especially during the winter. I'm not into sharing videos so much.

I have cleaned it many, many times, no problem (I don't, however, ride over the rock right next to the cliff where people have died -- but that isn't the technical part.). Additionally, I've ridden it with friends who were not as skilled as me, and they cleaned the whole thing too. It's not that difficult, really. Definitely not a double black diamond. Try a trail on Mt. Fromme sometime; the blue runs are harder than Portal.

Anyway, you likely won't believe without proof, so I don't know why I'm bothering to tell you all of this. Maybe all your years of striving to make everything like a sidewalk have skewed your perception of what is actually challenging. I know there is technical riding in Arizona; I've ridden a lot of it. Probably just the trails you and Boris haven't gotten your hands on yet.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> Now you are saying you only rode the Portal once. But earlier you also said it is easier now than when you rode it many years ago when rockman rode it on his hard tail. I apologize in advance if your entire unedited video shows you clean it. In the mean time I am highly skeptical. On MTBR if you are found out to not be telling the truth you loose all credibility.


Go read it again... I've only ridden portal once, before the scott enduro cup last year and I'm top 20 on strava (top 5 for the year) on the lower techy part if that means anything. I'm nothing special, like I said plenty of people ride trails like portal fast.

I'm 33, the first time I ever visited moab was 5 or 6 years ago after moving to colorado. I don't have any video of portal but if you look around you might find one from flying monkey or grafton, dare I mention them in fear of you trying to make them easier as well.

I really hope you find happiness... Not sure what happened to you but thanks for building the back side of hiline, and please don't change it.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Rockman- Definitely adding those to the list next time I’m down. We stopped for the day a couple months ago on the way home and rode shultz/sunset/upper and lower moto and some other stuff. Not sure how i missed the goods, looks way better then moto.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Switchblade2 said:


> This discussion is about making trails more enjoyable to ride by the majority of riders not just you and Kyle.


No it isn't, it started as a thread about unknown people who are sanitizing technical trails that some people enjoy being challenged on... and included a request to the leave trails as you find them.

You and your trail improvement pantywaists have made it all about yourselves and your personal mission to make this an all inclusive ,risk free, everybody gets a ribbon, self-congratulatory circle jerk.

And for the record, personal attacks couched in repeated idiotic requests to "provide an unedited video of blah blah blah" are still personal attacks, they are just not the kind that men with testicles make.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Trying reading it again and looking at the username.... wowza. You’re quoting cookie not me. Try the quote feature. That’s my point, I’m not a “1%er” as you like to put it. If I was the trail wouldnt see the traffic that it does. I think you need to take a step back and realize when everyone but boris is disagreeing with you maybe you’re wrong.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Fixed that.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Switchblade2 said:


> Cookie now I am really confused in your last post you said you only rode the Portal once and you cleaned it. Now you are saying you have ridden it many times but you don't ride the rock next to the cliff where people have died. How is that cleaning the trail if you haven't ridden the rock where people die, that you also say isn't technical?


You're correct on one thing -- you're very confused. Go back and look at every one of my posts. Never did I claim to have ridden Portal only once. It is probably closer to 20 times. I hit it every time I visit Moab, sometimes twice in a day.

As for the rock I mentioned not riding; perhaps you're unaware of the spot I'm talking about. The majority of the cliff exposure section is quite rideable and not terribly technical -- it's just scary. The spot I'm talking about is closer to the end of the cliff exposure, next to the sign that says "dismount now, riders have died here." It is a rather ordinary rock step that angles off-camber into the abyss -- a sheer vertical drop to your guaranteed death. It is a move I wouldn't think twice about riding if it were not right next to a cliff. I'm not stupid -- I want to live to ride another day. The rest of the trail after that is far more challenging, but the consequences of a crash are far less dire. Something tells me you know all this though, but you're calling me out on it just to continue being a prick.

Also, you're the one who continues to take this thread off-topic, and continues to try to change the topic to fit your own agenda of making every trail rideable by everybody. This thread was never, ever, about that despite you and Boris trying to make it so. Do I need to link Mikesee's original post again?

Also, it seems to me you're preaching mostly to deaf ears. While I don't follow nor care about rep points, and have never given anyone a negative rep for personal reasons; might I ask how many negative reps you've gotten for your posts in this thread? I'd imagine quite a few. You might take it into consideration that those negative rep points could possibly indicate that people aren't swallowing your kool-aid.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

cookieMonster said:


> might I ask how many negative reps you've gotten for your posts in this thread? I'd imagine quite a few.
> 
> You might take it into consideration that those negative rep points could possibly indicate that people aren't swallowing your kool-aid.


Good question.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Switchblade2 said:


> velo I have asked you numerous times to inform the MTBR viewers what you have contributed to the mountain biking user experience with no evidence from you of anything significant. I am not sure what politics has to do with creating new trails and doing maintenance on existing trails.
> 
> Then on top of that you do personal attacks at me because it make you feel like you are not a moron yourself. In your world calling someone a moron is something so cool.
> 
> ...


Oh Switch, let me break this down for you. Engaging with you is pointless and that would make me a moron, too. Still waiting for that video btw.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> Too much? Too intense?
> 
> View attachment 1172543
> 
> ...


What non-sense. There are no good trails in NM. Nobody should come here to ride. The rest of your post is spot on though.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

Switchblade2 said:


> I totally disagree with you regarding the Portal trail. Over the last 20 years the trail has continued to erode to its current state which is way more challenging than the original alignment to state differently is just Fake News.
> 
> I also have been riding it for 20 years and have seen significant changes to the lower non cliff section due to the poor design of the trail. Many lower sections are trenched out due to the lack of proper drains diverting fast moving water off the trail tread.
> 
> ...


Of the trails I ride frequently, there is one and only one, that I can clean everything on nearly every time. On all of the others I have to walk a section or two or more. On some, there are lines I will probably never try, but a large number of riders here clean them. Luckily there are usual pretty technical b-lines that I can attempt, and who knows maybe I'll give the A-line a shot some day. That is good. It gives me something to dream about and to accomplish.

On one trail I finally cleaned a sequence of ledges and boulders that I had been attempting for years. I actually got off my bike and danced. Didn't clean it again for a while after that. Then someone made it easier. Now I clean it every time. I don't dance when I make it now.

Anyway consider this a vote from a 10 percenter for keeping plenty of sections that are too hard for me to clean. I enjoy walking a section that I can dream about making or admire those who do make it, more than a whole trail that is easy for me to make.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Back to the Moor Fun trail, like I said before I think it's cool that some folks want to preserve it's old school, funky character but it's character is also why the other lines are developing. 

I think a big part of trail building is trying to understand and know the behavior of all trail users. It's the builders responsibility to try their best when planning a trail to imagine what those trail users might eventually do as far as making short cuts or cheater lines. 

If you guys are serious about stopping the braided lines you are going to have to move some really big rocks to block em, like 400 pounds +. Throwing those little rocks and sticks isn't going to work or it won't for very long.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Switchblade2 said:


> cookie I apologize for saying you only rode the Portal once, I got you confused with someone else. I know exactly where that up and over rock is at the end of the exposed section. I also walk that spot as well as many others.
> 
> I don't agree with you that my interest in creating a B line around an almost unrideable spot by 1%'ers goes on deaf ears.
> 
> ...


No, I don't have any top-secret trails. I used to, on private land. It was definitely a .05%er trail complete with huge drops, road gaps, and high skinnies. More of an old-school North Shore type of trail. My friends and I didn't really tell anybody about it except people who we knew could ride it. The whole point of it was to be ridiculous and see what our limits were. Mission accomplished. It's been de-commissioned and now the Earth has taken it back. I'm glad I survived that period in my life.

I have a handful of favorites that I like to ride in my state that aren't secrets, but I'm also not broadcasting them either. None of them are anything that a moderate rider couldn't clean, but at DH race speeds, they're gnarly and super fun for an advanced rider. The best part is they are remote, and most people don't know about them yet or aren't willing to travel so far to ride them.

Cheers.


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

IPunchCholla said:


> What non-sense. There are no good trails in NM. Nobody should come here to ride. The rest of your post is spot on though.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Oops! Did I say that out loud?


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Switchblade2 said:


> Anyway I am not convinced that you clean the whole Portal trail and you seem to believe you are a great rider and can do it.
> 
> Now you are saying you only rode the Portal once. But earlier you also said it is easier now than when you rode it many years ago when rockman rode it on his hard tail. I apologize in advance if your entire unedited video shows you clean it. In the mean time I am highly skeptical. On MTBR if you are found out to not be telling the truth you loose all credibility.


Pic of Portal from 1992. Kinda skewed but still the trail wasn't all that technical except for a few ledgy drops. By then I think I was walking the rock with the dismount sign. It was a pretty easy roll, albeit with exposure, when the trail was rather new with low rider impact. The last time I rode it was 2 years ago and I walked a couple of the more gnarly sections. I was pretty gassed after a Mag7 ride and weighing that risk-reward factor and riding the next day. Anyhoo, doesn't add much to this thread except Portal is mostly technical because of erosion and poor alignment. Same goes for the lower Porcupine singletrack. It was hardly technical at all but eroded to a condition where advanced riders were pretty upset with Trailmix did a bunch of maintenance on it in 2013 to bring it back to a more rideable tread for the less advanced.

Moore Fun is a different animal altogether. A trail designed to be technical but raisingarizona is on point. There's no stopping the braids. Think about what happened to Porcupine. It was a mess with multiple braids everywhere.


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## Humpy (Jun 7, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> Hopefully counciling will help me get back to normal.


Doubtful.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Switchblade2 said:


> I know it had a negative affect on me. Hopefully counciling will help me get back to normal.


Be sure to ask your counselor about addressing your passive aggressive tendencies.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

rockman said:


> Pic of Portal from 1992. Kinda skewed but still the trail wasn't all that technical except for a few ledgy drops. By then I think I was walking the rock with the dismount sign. It was a pretty easy roll, albeit with exposure, when the trail was rather new with low rider impact. The last time I rode it was 2 years ago and I walked a couple of the more gnarly sections. I was pretty gassed after a Mag7 ride and weighing that risk-reward factor and riding the next day. Anyhoo, doesn't add much to this thread except Portal is mostly technical because of erosion and poor alignment. Same goes for the lower Porcupine singletrack. It was hardly technical at all but eroded to a condition where advanced riders were pretty upset with Trailmix did a bunch of maintenance on it in 2013 to bring it back to a more rideable tread for the less advanced.
> 
> Moore Fun is a different animal altogether. A trail designed to be technical but raisingarizona is on point. There's no stopping the braids. Think about what happened to Porcupine. It was a mess with multiple braids everywhere.
> 
> View attachment 1172769


Duuuuude please tell me that you were at least rawking a Hite Rite seatpost on that ride!?


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Switchblade2 said:


> I guess you could call that being bullied. I know it had a negative affect on me. Hopefully counciling will help me get back to normal.
> 
> Like cookie says CHEERS


You have to admit, you dished it out plenty as well...Anyhow, I hate it when these e-battles get started and I get sucked into them. For the record, no hard feelings from my end; the last thing I ever want is to cause someone mental distress.

We're all mountain bikers -- and that's cause for celebration. Merry Christmas and happy trails.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Duuuuude please tell me that you were at least rawking a Hite Rite seatpost on that ride!


No, but it's funny how cool we thought we were cutting down Awnser Hyperlite bars and adding bar ends.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

cookieMonster said:


> You have to admit, you dished it out plenty as well...


You have no idea.

Cookie, I wonder how much you know about Switch's history. It takes real effort to get banned from mtbr three (or is it four?) times in eight years. His distress is probably just another ploy.

I usually ignore trolls, never give neg rep, and oppose banning people who post unpopular or controversial views, but Switch's pattern of hijacking threads, desperate need for recognition, and passive-aggressive baiting get under my skin.

Too bad 'cause the guy's contributions to the sport ARE genuine. He just needs to be kept away from a keyboard.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Well, you kinda walked right into that one...


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

rockman said:


> No, but it's funny how cool we thought we were cutting down Awnser Hyperlite bars and adding bar ends.


Haha so true. Eons before bikes got super capable and B-lines, go arounds, cheater lines, and stravahole corner cuts became a thing. Ah our sport is on a downward spiral to be sure.

Oh and if you didn't build it, don't mess with it. Stay on THE trail as the original builder intended. Braids are nothing but senseless clutter, laziness, and cop outs. If you can't ride a section get off and walk. You were given legs for a reason. And riding bikes wasn't first on the list. Happy holidays.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Switchblade2 said:


> velo I just wish you would get off the keyboard and do something to maintain or build new trails. How long have you been retired now? Seems like you could have helped out alot at this point. You like to personally attack me because it makes you feel better about your lack of helping out. I just wonder how you sleep at nights knowing you aren't doing your share?
> 
> I would love to see some pictures or videos of you out working on a trail site. Or how about heading to Moore Fun and being the first to post some pictures of you riding the A lines or the B lines, if you can't make the A's.


Eight good hours last night. How about you? Convenient of you to pretend I am the only one who has a problem with your online personality (disorder). I'm heading out the door to "conquer" a few blue trail A lines on the rigid bike. Ha! You should go for a ride, too. You do have me questioning the value of spending precious time trying to shame an obviously shameless troll such as yourself. I think I'll lay back for awhile and let your behavior speak for itself. Maybe you will get ban number four, or is it five, for Christmas.

P.S. Not everyone has an ego so fragile that they need to prove they are doing their share to some troll with a keyboard.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Haha so true. Eons before bikes got super capable and B-lines, go arounds, cheater lines, and stravahole corner cuts became a thing. Ah our sport is on a downward spiral to be sure.
> 
> Oh and if you didn't build it, don't mess with it. Stay on THE trail as the original builder intended. Braids are nothing but senseless clutter, laziness, and cop outs. If you can't ride a section get off and walk. You were given legs for a reason. And riding bikes wasn't first on the list. Happy holidays.


Downward spiral? Are you nuts? Nothing could be further from the truth. These are the great years of mountain biking. I don't miss that crazy '89 Diamondback with biopic rings and friction shifting and crappy brakes. I thought I made it a trail killer when I installed an IRD rubber bumper front fork. Then came the German Wheeler with a Rock Shock Mag 20, that I snapped both lower legs off of while performing a bunny hop on Gemini Bridges in Moab. Then I made the mistake of buying a Pro-Flex 956, with something like 50 metal bushings in their front elastomer fork, and a rear suspension that wags like a dogs tail.

The trails were few and they were mostly hiking trails opened to bikes. Nothing was designed for bikes back then, accept maybe Salmon Falls, at Folsom Lake, outside of Sacramento.

What is your problem with b-lines? Why do you allow them to cause you so much anger? Nobody is forcing you to ride them and they are not interfering with you riding the a-line. you lack understanding of who built the original trail and to what standard they built it. B-lines appear most often in older, rutted out trails, and then a few show up on poorly designed trails with pinch points or something hazardous. If a trail makes an expert walk his bike, it needs an alternative line. If someone with skill does not build that alternative line, then someone without skill will do it. Your lecture is not going to stop it from happening. You don't decide what skill level people should obtain and how much they should walk their bike. If the experience is enhanced by a b-line, there will be a b-line. It's preposterous to think only the original trail builder can update or maintain or restore the trail. Where do people dream up this set of rules? The older the trail, the more likely the original builder was not even a biker and was ordered to build the trail. They probably got tired of the hard work and went to join a hotshot crew and get paid more and did less heavy lifting. Riders like yourself don't seem to grasp what it takes to build and maintain and restore trails for the growing number of riders. You just sit around and invent a set of rules that define what you think is best for all. We would all lose a lot of miles of trails to abandonment if we listened to such nonsense.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I don't know who said it that mountain biking is in a downward spiral but I couldn't disagree more. Just because this thread is in a downward spiral doesn't mean that mountain biking is.

Since I moved up to my hometown the amount of mountain bike trails and opportunities have expanded many fold and I see that throughout the country.

Now getting back to the whole point of this thread, all trails need some love and care over the years to keep them from getting blown out by trail users or erosion.

I would suggest that if you see tech trails that are designed to be tech trails being dumbed down that you work with the land managers or your buddies to keep them that way. Use signage, trail work days or whatever to preserve them instead of using forums to get into pissing contests where nothing gets done.

You would think that mountain bike forums should be a celebration of all that is right with the world but instead it often brings out the worst in people. I mentioned this thread to my wife's friend who makes soap and she said she participated on a forum about soap making and she could not believe that the same thing happened there. She said "you would think that of all things how could people get in arguments about soap?"

It is too bad that our politically charged atmosphere has to spill over into bicycling.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

HacksawReynolds said:


> *Ah our sport is on a downward spiral to be sur*e.


Prolly not.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Super cool pic Rockman! 

Mountain biking is in a renaissance period! It's never been so good. If someone really thinks that then I dare them to go back to rigid bikes, narrow bars with bar ends etc. The advancements are also pushing trail building styles and things have changed. 

For the most part the advanced riding community doesn't want Moore Fun or a lot of the derailleur eating rock pinches that you find on a trail like Portal. Sure, it's challenging but risking breaking my $300 derailleur to say I made it through a lame rock crux just sucks imo. It's not 1997 any longer and thank god! I used to "session" funky xc tech moves back about 15+ years ago but since then I've moved on, that stuff lost it's allure and no longer thrilled me. Now a days I prefer carrying momentum, roosting cool corners, linking together doubles (natural and built) and rolling down scary steep rock faces. 

For the most part I'm going to just walk on by some of those classic crux moves on Moore Fun because today it's just Not That Fun. Maybe rename it that?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

This thread reminds me of a Roundabout. Yield before entering and be aware you may end up going around in circles.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Somebody needs to put richwolf and raisingarizona in charge around here. I believe Flagstaff is in good hands with RA and Rockman up there pushing the land managers to create challenging trails, just like what happened in Sedona, thanks in no small part to Switchblade. Down here in Phoenix, how could we possibly complain. I'm guessing we have more trails than any other major city in the world. And we can ride them all year long. These are the best of times.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Boris Badenov said:


> Somebody needs to put richwolf and raisingarizona in charge around here. I believe Flagstaff is in good hands with RA and Rockman up there pushing the land managers to create challenging trails, just like what happened in Sedona, thanks in no small part to Switchblade. Down here in Phoenix, how could we possibly complain. I'm guessing we have more trails than any other major city in the world. And we can ride them all year long. These are the best of times.


Thanks man. I think Vancouver could give Phoenix a run for their money but I don't know Phoenix.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I love roundabouts.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> I love roundabouts.


And turtles.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

raisingarizona said:


> Super cool pic Rockman!
> 
> Mountain biking is in a renaissance period! It's never been so good. If someone really thinks that then I dare them to go back to rigid bikes, narrow bars with bar ends etc. The advancements are also pushing trail building styles and things have changed.
> 
> ...


But you can do that on portal and quite a few sections of moore fun... you just have to be skilled enough.


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## gomer hardtale (Jul 2, 2008)

people ride around technical sections here ,too. they also ride around leaves,bugs,twigs, roots,the wet spot their dog just left..........


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Boris Badenov said:


> Downward spiral? Are you nuts? Nothing could be further from the truth. These are the great years of mountain biking. I don't miss that crazy '89 Diamondback with biopic rings and friction shifting and crappy brakes. I thought I made it a trail killer when I installed an IRD rubber bumper front fork. Then came the German Wheeler with a Rock Shock Mag 20, that I snapped both lower legs off of while performing a bunny hop on Gemini Bridges in Moab. Then I made the mistake of buying a Pro-Flex 956, with something like 50 metal bushings in their front elastomer fork, and a rear suspension that wags like a dogs tail.
> 
> The trails were few and they were mostly hiking trails opened to bikes. Nothing was designed for bikes back then, accept maybe Salmon Falls, at Folsom Lake, outside of Sacramento.
> 
> What is your problem with b-lines? Why do you allow them to cause you so much anger? Nobody is forcing you to ride them and they are not interfering with you riding the a-line. you lack understanding of who built the original trail and to what standard they built it. B-lines appear most often in older, rutted out trails, and then a few show up on poorly designed trails with pinch points or something hazardous. If a trail makes an expert walk his bike, it needs an alternative line. If someone with skill does not build that alternative line, then someone without skill will do it. Your lecture is not going to stop it from happening. You don't decide what skill level people should obtain and how much they should walk their bike. If the experience is enhanced by a b-line, there will be a b-line. It's preposterous to think only the original trail builder can update or maintain or restore the trail. Where do people dream up this set of rules? The older the trail, the more likely the original builder was not even a biker and was ordered to build the trail. They probably got tired of the hard work and went to join a hotshot crew and get paid more and did less heavy lifting. Riders like yourself don't seem to grasp what it takes to build and maintain and restore trails for the growing number of riders. You just sit around and invent a set of rules that define what you think is best for all. We would all lose a lot of miles of trails to abandonment if we listened to such nonsense.


Cool story bro.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

raisingarizona said:


> Thanks man. I think Vancouver could give Phoenix a run for their money but I don't know Phoenix.


Vancouver blows Phoenix out of the water IMO; and I actually think Phoenix is amazing. The National trail is one of my all-time favorites; had a great time riding Black Canyon (I think that's what it was called; about 45 minutes north of the city), and Hawes had some fun stuff too.

But Vancouver is on another level. Hundreds upon hundreds of trails, and you just park at the edge of town and in minutes you're in the "jungle." It goes from urban to "wilderness" atmosphere within 1 mile of the edge of the city. A lot more challenge to be had there as well; it gets as gnarly as you can handle.

It could just be a northerner thing, but around these parts, people are still into tech. Yes, we have our flow trails and people like'em -- but I'm definitely not in the minority of people who ride (and rip) on the rock and root garden steep trails.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Boris Badenov said:


> I'm guessing we have more trails than any other major city in the world. And we can ride them all year long. These are the best of times.


To be fair, we can ride the trails all year round in Anchorage too.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Boston too. Hundreds of miles of year round ST within pedaling distance of the city.


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## 7daysaweek (May 7, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> This thread reminds me of a Roundabout. Yield before entering and be aware you may end up going around in circles.


Where can I get one of those cars. Looks like enough headroom to hang a chandelier inside. That would be classy.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

7daysaweek said:


> Where can I get one of those cars. Looks like enough headroom to hang a chandelier inside. That would be classy.


It's all about the HEADROOM!


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

I'll leave this here too. #keepsingletracksingle
https://www.singletracks.com/blog/m...-death-the-downside-of-being-a-popular-trail/


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

HacksawReynolds said:


> I'll leave this here too. #keepsingletracksingle
> https://www.singletracks.com/blog/m...-death-the-downside-of-being-a-popular-trail/


That's a good read. I suppose it's also worth having a look at this older thread debate on the Trailmix work on Porcupine in Moab. http://forums.mtbr.com/utah/r-i-p-porcupine-singletrack-you-had-good-run-849219.html


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

7daysaweek said:


> Where can I get one of those cars. Looks like enough headroom to hang a chandelier inside. That would be classy.


The Mobilier:


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Jayem said:


> To be fair, we can ride the trails all year round in Anchorage too.


Yes, that is true. I've nearly forgotten when we sat around putting a few hundred sheet metal screws into our tires, duct taping over the heads, removing all lube from the drivetrain, replacing it with silicone spray, and then putting on battery heated insoles and layers of winter clothes, and going on a ride in sub-freezing temps. We would crash and barely feel it, with all the layers of protection.

I guess the difference, or the main difference with Phoenix in the winter, is that people come here from all over the world in large numbers, to get away from the cold and ride on dry trails. It looks like mid 60's for our Christmas Day ride this year. I walked out back yesterday and saw a woman climbing out of the community swimming pool. I think we hit 75 degrees. I've got maybe 12 different riding locations to choose from each day, all within an hours drive. One is less than three minutes from our front door. It's hard to make excuses not to ride. I quit one of my favorite jobs ever when I left Omaha in the 80's to move to Sacramento. All it took was working one night in minus 77 degree wind chill. Nobody should have to live in that sort of environment. I don't know how you do it in Alaska.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

*Max Headroom*


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

rockman said:


> That's a good read. I suppose it's also worth having a look at this older thread debate on the Trailmix work on Porcupine in Moab. http://forums.mtbr.com/utah/r-i-p-porcupine-singletrack-you-had-good-run-849219.html


I like this. A lot.

"When the Wilderness Study Area was formulated, it included the cattle-turned bike trail within the WSA. While it is important to keep ALL singletrack narrow, it is particularly important within the WSA. The "authorization" of the trail is for an 18 inch wide trail -- not for a swath where riders go whichever way they like. If the trail is not kept to a narrow width, it could be closed for violating the management policy that requires the BLM to manage WSAs as unimpaired until Congress decides their designation. Trail Mix's maintenance of Porcupine Rim was an effort to assist riders in staying on the singletrack trailbed."


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

*I can't believe this sport has come to this.*

They paved Fruitas Horsethief Drop-In.

Before:








After:


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

It's about time, think of all the collarbones that must have been broken there!


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> They paved Fruitas Horsethief Drop-In.
> 
> Before:
> View attachment 1173093
> ...


Hahaha! And I bet everyone would still swear you need long low slack with 6" travel and a droppah post to slay that road! My gawd our sports done gone retahdid.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Boris Badenov said:


> Yes, that is true. I've nearly forgotten when we sat around putting a few hundred sheet metal screws into our tires, duct taping over the heads, removing all lube from the drivetrain, replacing it with silicone spray, and then putting on battery heated insoles and layers of winter clothes, and going on a ride in sub-freezing temps. We would crash and barely feel it, with all the layers of protection.
> 
> I guess the difference, or the main difference with Phoenix in the winter, is that people come here from all over the world in large numbers, to get away from the cold and ride on dry trails. It looks like mid 60's for our Christmas Day ride this year. I walked out back yesterday and saw a woman climbing out of the community swimming pool. I think we hit 75 degrees. I've got maybe 12 different riding locations to choose from each day, all within an hours drive. One is less than three minutes from our front door. It's hard to make excuses not to ride. I quit one of my favorite jobs ever when I left Omaha in the 80's to move to Sacramento. All it took was working one night in minus 77 degree wind chill. Nobody should have to live in that sort of environment. I don't know how you do it in Alaska.


 We try to embrace the seasons here in New England. Just dress right. Great for your winter pedaling, what about the blast furnace of the hottest 5 or 6 months?


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

leeboh said:


> We try to embrace the seasons here in New England. Just dress right. Great for your winter pedaling, what about the blast furnace of the hottest 5 or 6 months?


Winter riding can be a lot of fun, but I can't say Ive missed it much since trading Nome AK for Prescott AZ a year ago. Here's what a lot of Phoenicians do in the, ahem, warmer months:

Sedona- 1 hr. drive
Prescott- 1.5 hr.
Flagstaff-2 hr.

Quick access to cooler/warmer elevations make for some pretty comfortable year-round riding. Night riding in the desert is awesome, too.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

veloborealis said:


> Winter riding can be a lot of fun, but I can't say Ive missed it much since trading Nome AK for Prescott AZ a year ago. Here's what a lot of Phoenicians do in the, ahem, warmer months:
> 
> Sedona- 1 hr. drive
> Prescott- 1.5 hr.
> ...


 1-2 hr drive? You consider that year round biking or bike n drive? Got 15 miles of dirt 100 yds from my door. And all day pedalfests biking distance away, 3-7 miles of pave. YRMV.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> 1-2 hr drive? You consider that year round biking or bike n drive? Got 15 miles of dirt 100 yds from my door. And all day pedalfests biking distance away, 3-7 miles of pave. YRMV.


That's the distance to good cooler riding areas during scorch season.

I remember when I lived near Phoenix, could drive to snow in the morning, go home and jump in the pool later that same day.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Both, I guess, leeboh. 

You asked what people in Phoenix do during the summer heat. They ride early (crack of dawn), or at night, or they drive. I live 1.5 hours north in Prescott at 5000 feet, where year-round biking from my door is also possible on a trail network totaling 100s of miles, though many of the high elevation trails close briefly in the winter when they are wet or snowed in. When our highs drop into the 40s, I don't mind driving an hour or so over to Sedona or the Phoenix-area once a week for a day of riding in shorts and a T-shirt. Or I layer up and ride in the "cold". Pretty nice rear-round riding options, if you ask me. Of course you CAN ride year-round anywhere, as many here on mtbr do. In Nome, for 4 months of the year, I felt like I had to gear up for an expedition just to go for a 3 hour ride. It was novel, and fun for a while, but don't miss it 't all.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

slapheadmofo said:


> That's the distance to good cooler riding areas during scorch season.
> 
> I remember when I lived near Phoenix, could drive to snow in the morning, go home and jump in the pool later that same day.


Reminds me of when I lived in San Diego, just substitute the pool for the ocean.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

veloborealis said:


> It takes real effort to get banned from mtbr three (or is it four?) times in eight years.


Dang, I really have my work cut out for me.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

leeboh said:


> We try to embrace the seasons here in New England. Just dress right. Great for your winter pedaling, what about the blast furnace of the hottest 5 or 6 months?


Climbing up a steep trail in six inches of fresh snow is not easy or fun. Anything over 3 inches of snow and riding becomes very difficult. I made studded tires in the years before they were offered for sale. At least we could get some traction. Deraileurs would freeze up and refuse to shift, that is why we cleaned all the lube off of them and sprayed them with silicone. And then we used heated insoles to keep our toes from freezing.

We never change the clocks in Arizona. By July, the sun is up by 5am. We start riding at 5am, and usually get done by 8-9am, when the temps have not yet reached 90. We have a regular group of people who like those start times because it allows several of them to ride before work. We keep a second home in Flagstaff, we can spend weekends at.

I've never added them up, but it is possible that the greater Phoenix area has close to 1000 miles of trails.

Estrella Mountain Park, Lake Pleasant County Park, The Maricopa Trail, White Tank Mountain Regional Park, McDowell Mountain Regional Park, Phoenix Mountain Preserve, Phoenix Sonoran Preserve, Phoenix South Mountain Preserve, The Preserve at Squaw Peak, Deem Hills Recreation Area, Thunderbird Park, Papago Park, McDowell Sonoran Preserve (30,000 acres and 190+ miles of trails, and counting), Black Canyon Trail (80 miles), The Arizona Trail (810 miles), Cave Creek Regional Park, Spur Cross Ranch, Gold Canyon Trails, Hawes. I'm sure I've missed a few others.

Snow birds have been arriving for a month from Canada and northern states, along with Europeans and other foreigners. There are enough trails for everyone. This is the Winter Mountain Biking Mecca.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> Climbing up a steep trail in six inches of fresh snow is not easy or fun. Anything over 3 inches of snow and riding becomes very difficult. .


Too funny.
Same planet, different world.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Boris Badenov said:


> Climbing up a steep trail in six inches of fresh snow is not easy or fun. Anything over 3 inches of snow and riding becomes very difficult


Today I had the singular joy of refreshing an old track through 6 inches of fresh powder on a balmy 25F morning. Most fun I've had in a long time, especially going up.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Ya riding bikes sux if it takes effort ha.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

mileslong said:


> Today I had the singular joy of refreshing an old track through 6 inches of fresh powder on a balmy 25F morning. Most fun I've had in a long time, especially going up.


Sounds lovely. Today was gorgeous by me. Got out on my 4 hour lunch break and prepared some of my trails after yesterday's snow.







Love our 4 seasons.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mileslong said:


> Today I had the singular joy of refreshing an old track through 6 inches of fresh powder on a balmy 25F morning. Most fun I've had in a long time, especially going up.


I rode in snow for years. A skinny tire bike can't push through deep snow. It's not about working hard, it just won't roll though it without so much drag against the front tire that the rear breaks loose and you stop. I also never cared for the when the snow and ice began to thaw. Riders would go out and really damage the trails. Instead of riding early in the morning, when the mud was frozen, they would ride later in the day and create a lot of ruts that lasted for months. I know that a big fat tire snow specific bike can ride in much deeper snow that a 2.1 tire. Does everyone then have to buy a fat tire bike for winter? And we all know that people hiking on snow covered trails will push holes in the snow and the next couple days the snow hardens and turns to ice with rough ridges. You can ride downhill over that ice, if you are careful, but you won't be riding uphill on it. I mean uphill on 6-10 percent grades.

Why don't you show me a picture of your ride, your bike, your uphill, and a clear shot of the depth of the snow.

This thread reminds me of a bar in flagstaff frequented by riders who will tell tall tales regarding their amazing skills at riding in blizzard conditions or hopping over six foot boulders. I use to like putting up a couple hundred dollars and ask them to prove these skills and ride a particular trail with zero dabs. You guessed it, no takers. Internet forums and bars allow you the freedom to embellish your riding skills.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

^^^^^^^winter conditions are truly dynamic as you know. It would be wonderful if everyone would understand when to ride and when not to ride the trails based on the weather and conditions. I stick to my own trails mostly when temps/conditions are up/down. That way I know that no one else is gonna screw it up by leaving ruts and such. Pics from this week. 8+ mile neighborhood network stash that no one rides but me and another guy. Will be 15 miles when we build out the next phase. #dirtfromthedriveway.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Boris Badenov said:


> And we all know that people hiking on snow covered trails will push holes in the snow and the next couple days the snow hardens and turns to ice with rough ridges. You can ride downhill over that ice, if you are careful, but you won't be riding uphill on it. I mean uphill on 6-10 percent grades.


Sure you will. If the trail conditions are rideable, you can absolutely climb 6-10% without bother. The hardest conditions here are when you've had 1-2 people walk a trail and they create a packed crown. That's hard to stay on even at low gradient. If it's more traveled and packed down, even if hummocky, you can ride it without too much issue. Nearly all the trails here climb at an average 10%, and they see fatbikes regularly.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> Great post, Boris I have had similar experiences.


Of course you have.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Hekyll and Jekyll.

It can be done Boris given the right snow/ice conditions. A fatbike makes it easier, but even a standard mtb can do it when everything is just right. As Hacksaw said, snow conditions are dynamic, constantly changing due to temp, wind, traffic, moisture content, etc. Climb it one day, fail miserably the next. Makes it hard to win those bar bets. When conditions come together biking on snow is bliss. There are more days when it's just... um, exercise.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Maybe more people can post pictures of 1.5 inches of snow that has no 12" drifts or ice formed on it or hikers that have created packed hardened spots every foot or two. to help make my point. When the wind blows, a 4 inch snowstorm becomes a foot or more deep in spots. Something a bike tire can't continually ride through and keep momentum. A picture of a perfectly groomed private trail with less than 2" of snow on it and no footprints is perfect to ride on. It is also the exception, as everyone should know.

Maybe I'm misremembering why I moved away from Nebraska. I do recall working the night shift for the Omaha Police in December, when the average monthly temperature was 33 degrees....below freezing, or minus 1 degree...average. During the days, it often got up to 5 or even 10 degrees. One particular night it got down to -24 degrees, and the wind was howling. My Sergeant announced to us that the wind chill was -77 degrees, and that we were not to do perimeter walks around buildings when motion sensors set of alarms. We were told it was too dangerous to expose our skin to the conditions. Several of us couldn't even get our vehicles to start up. Just getting to work was a chore. Snow on the roadway was hard as concrete. Big chucks of snow could break the air dams on the front of your car and would cause lots of traffic accidents and throw your alignment out.

Meanwhile, down in Phoenix, there were people out hiking in shorts.

We all make choices. Some people live where there are very few trails and very long winters. Others live in states where there are no mountains or big parcels of public lands. If they ride, they ride on dirt roads out in the country, or around the perimeter of someone's private property. They do the best they can. I chose to leave that behind years ago. I gave up a great job and friends and family. to move to California, and then to Boise, Idaho, and then to Flagstaff, AZ, and then to Phoenix. The riding opportunities got better and better. That is the reason for each move. It was never about a job opportunity. It was about the best riding opportunities.









I believe this picture was taken on a group ride on New Years Day 2017. Maybe 55 degrees.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

When you bike in snow country you learn to read conditions carefully and where, when to ride. I recall creating routes linking snow machine tracks, mushing trails, windblown ice, and spots where I knew the wind tended to lay in firm snowdrifts that one could often ride right over. One day after a long slog on the road to the start of one of my favorite trails, which was drifted it with 2-3 feet of what looked like soft snow. The traiI started with a steep climb, but I knew that once I got to the top of the ridge the wind would have packed the snow into rideable condition. Preparing myself for a push to the ridgeline, I decided to hit the first drift with everything I had. Lo and behold I rode right over it and the next. I rode the whole, steep mile-long climb over 2 and 3 foot frozen waves that looked unrideable. Bliss. Over the next several winters, it was the only time I made that climb. Will never forget that one perfect day, though.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> It is also the exception, as everyone should know.


Cuz you know best, all the way from Arizona.

What a joke.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Boris Badenov said:


> Maybe more people can post pictures of 1.5 inches of snow that has no 12" drifts or ice formed on it or hikers that have created packed hardened spots every foot or two. to help make my point. When the wind blows, a 4 inch snowstorm becomes a foot or more deep in spots. Something a bike tire can't continually ride through and keep momentum. A picture of a perfectly groomed private trail with less than 2" of snow on it and no footprints is perfect to ride on. It is also the exception, as everyone should know.
> 
> Maybe I'm misremembering why I moved away from Nebraska. I do recall working the night shift for the Omaha Police in December, when the average monthly temperature was 33 degrees....below freezing, or minus 1 degree...average. During the days, it often got up to 5 or even 10 degrees. One particular night it got down to -24 degrees, and the wind was howling. My Sergeant announced to us that the wind chill was -77 degrees, and that we were not to do perimeter walks around buildings when motion sensors set of alarms. We were told it was too dangerous to expose our skin to the conditions. Several of us couldn't even get our vehicles to start up. Just getting to work was a chore. Snow on the roadway was hard as concrete. Big chucks of snow could break the air dams on the front of your car and would cause lots of traffic accidents and throw your alignment out.
> 
> ...


We can agree that Omaha sucks and most people choose not to recreate outdoors when there's a -77 wind chill.

But none of what you wrote has anything to do with your claim that it's impossible to climb a moderate grade on a hiker-packed trail. Since that's what we have here, I know otherwise. Nearly all our trails climb at 10%, and we don't have any grooming beyond hikers and cumulative fatbike traffic. A biker packed trail is rough, but it's absolutely rideable. And drifts are just that- they drift into isolated reefs. But they're formed by wind, so they're predicable and not generally found in the woods. And unless they're really big and deep, you can punch through them.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

I think that's at least the second time you've posted that wheelie pic in this thread. In need of validation or something? 

And you should probably just stop commenting about riding in snow.

Carry on, Doris...


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Cuz you know best, all the way from Arizona.
> 
> What a joke.


You play the angry guy role quite well. Let me explain it to you. Arizona is not all desert. Flagstaff sits at an elevation of 7000 feet. It averages over 100 inches of snow each winter. There are no tire tracks on most of the trails, particularly on the north facing slopes. For good reason. They are buried in snow and it will not thaw out until April, may, or sometimes June. On the lower, flatter, hiker packed trails in the urban interface, there are occasional bike tracks. I've watched them ride and attempt to ride. I've gone out and ridden on snow and ice. You can't ride at a pace that allows you to get momentum to get up and over obstacles. Going uphill has more resistance, and you will be walking more often than you think. The back end slides out from under you in a split second under torque. The snow reflects the light and requires sunglasses that fog up. Your toes freeze and so do your fingers. Winter riding is a sport that only a fraction of riders take part in, for good reason. It is true in Flagstaff, as well as other cities I have lived in that experience long winters with lots of snow. But none of that matters to you. You are angry and have only one objective on this forum, to attack me.

I just called Sunday River Man Bike Park to inquire about riding there this winter. They laughed and said there is no bike riding on their trails in winter, but they would gladly sell me a $269 season pass to ride on their chair assisted groomed trails next summer. It sounds very hard core for people who like coasting downhill on wide groomed, beamed, smooth trails. I guess I had you wrong.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Boris Badenov said:


> You play the angry guy role quite well. Let me explain it to you. Arizona is not all desert. Flagstaff sits at an elevation of 7000 feet. It averages over 100 inches of snow each winter. There are no tire tracks on most of the trails, particularly on the north facing slopes. For good reason. They are buried in snow and it will not thaw out until April, may, or sometimes June. On the lower, flatter, hiker packed trails in the urban interface, there are occasional bike tracks. I've watched them ride and attempt to ride. I've gone out and ridden on snow and ice. You can't ride at a pace that allows you to get momentum to get up and over obstacles. Going uphill has more resistance, and you will be walking more often than you think. The back end slides out from under you in a split second under torque. The snow reflects the light and requires sunglasses that fog up. Your toes freeze and so do your fingers. Winter riding is a sport that only a fraction of riders take part in, for good reason. It is true in Flagstaff, as well as other cities I have lived in that experience long winters with lots of snow. But none of that matters to you. You are angry and have only one objective on this forum, to attack me.
> 
> I just called Sunday River Man Bike Park to inquire about riding there this winter. They laughed and said there is no bike riding on their trails in winter, but they would gladly sell me a $269 season pass to ride on their chair assisted groomed trails next summer. It sounds very hard core for people who like coasting downhill on wide groomed, beamed, smooth trails. I guess I had you wrong.


 Dear clueless, AZ snow and weather is not what we get in New England. We have denser snow, not usually powder, certainly not at 7000 ft. Tried using a fat bike with 4.8 studded tires at 4 psi? They work really well. Fat biking is hugely popular out here, hills, snow and cold. We just start with a big cup of HTFU every day. Sunday river? Got to KT, they groom, way nice.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> I guess I had you wrong.


Not just me, everything.

What kind of world-class moron is surprised when they call a ski area in winter and find out it's ski season? Oh wait...I think I know!

You should go check out their wide open, smooth and groomed bike trails sometime. I'm sure you'd have a nice walk and cry on your way down the mountain. Please make sure to move your tired old ass out of the way so the little local kids with actual skills can get by you.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Boris Badenov said:


> ....I just called Sunday River Man Bike Park to inquire about riding there this winter. They laughed and said there is no bike riding on their trails in winter, but they would gladly sell me a $269 season pass to ride on their chair assisted groomed trails next summer. It sounds very hard core for people who like coasting downhill on wide groomed, beamed, smooth trails. I guess I had you wrong.


You play the clueless guy role quite well. Let me explain it to you. There is a huge world outside of Arizona, and it might be different than anything you have ever experienced...

If you think Sunday River MTB Park has wide groomed trails you have really shown your cluelessness.

Good luck, you need it.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

leeboh said:


> Dear clueless, AZ snow and weather is not what we get in New England. We have denser snow, not usually powder, certainly not at 7000 ft. Tried using a fat bike with 4.8 studded tires at 4 psi? They work really well. Fat biking is hugely popular out here, hills, snow and cold. We just start with a big cup of HTFU every day. Sunday river? Got to KT, they groom, way nice.


Hugely popular? What sort of sales for fat bikes with hugely studded tires? Hugely sales? I'm headed out for a ride. The parking lot at the preserve will be over half full today. On Saturday, there will be over 1000 riders out on the trails here. Some will be visiting from New England, to get away from the cold and the snow. Most of the visitors don't boast about how they love riding in northern states or Canada. That's why they come here. I don't miss two hours of riding to get in 8 miles on snow and ice in sub-freezing temps. But I understand that some people get a lot of pleasure out of it. Mountain bikers are like Marines, they improvise and overcome. I admire that quality.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

veloborealis said:


> When you bike in snow country you learn to read conditions carefully and where, when to ride. I recall creating routes linking snow machine tracks, mushing trails, windblown ice, and spots where I knew the wind tended to lay in firm snowdrifts that one could often ride right over. One day after a long slog on the road to the start of one of my favorite trails, which was drifted it with 2-3 feet of what looked like soft snow. The traiI started with a steep climb, but I knew that once I got to the top of the ridge the wind would have packed the snow into rideable condition. Preparing myself for a push to the ridgeline, I decided to hit the first drift with everything I had. Lo and behold I rode right over it and the next. I rode the whole, steep mile-long climb over 2 and 3 foot frozen waves that looked unrideable. Bliss. Over the next several winters, it was the only time I made that climb. Will never forget that one perfect day, though.


Awesome. Riding in winter on snow is so interesting compared to riding dirt where nothing ever really changes. On the Maine coast we often get the most perfect supportive crust where you can ride ANYWHERE you point your front tire. A few winters ago we had that crust for 7 full weeks with a 2.5-3 foot base. Man that was something. Crust covered rivers and streams, ponds, bogs, swamps, you name it everything was in play. No trails needed.

Love it.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Boris Badenov said:


> Hugely popular? What sort of sales for fat bikes with hugely studded tires? Hugely sales? I'm headed out for a ride. The parking lot at the preserve will be over half full today. On Saturday, there will be over 1000 riders out on the trails here. Some will be visiting from New England, to get away from the cold and the snow. Most of the visitors don't boast about how they love riding in northern states or Canada. That's why they come here. I don't miss two hours of riding to get in 8 miles on snow and ice in sub-freezing temps. But I understand that some people get a lot of pleasure out of it. Mountain bikers are like Marines, they improvise and overcome. I admire that quality.


There's no shame in admitting you know dick about riding fatbikes on snow; you're proud to live in Phoenix after all. Some people really enjoy playing in the snow for part of the year. That shouldn't be hard to accept.

The fatbike segment has evolved pretty rapidly. Even in the last 5 years there have been lots of improvements to available tires. etc. Your previous experience with riding in snow is meaningless. I've only had my fatbike since February. I used to say that I enjoyed lots of other ways to play in the snow, and enjoy the seasons. While that's true, I realized that I can take the fatbike out on our trails after work pretty much any day of the week, whereas Nordic skiing is much more condition dependent, and downhill skiing is mostly a weekend activity.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Awesome. Riding in winter on snow is so interesting compared to riding dirt where nothing ever really changes. On the Maine coast we often get the most perfect supportive crust where you can ride ANYWHERE you point your front tire. A few winters ago we had that crust for 7 full weeks with a 2.5-3 foot base. Man that was something. Crust covered rivers and streams, ponds, bogs, swamps, you name it everything was in play. No trails needed.
> 
> Love it.


That was a good time, it was like the woods magically turned into an endless frozen skatepark.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> That was a good time, it was like the woods magically turned into an endless frozen skatepark.


Totally. Jaw dropped and pinching myself for 7 weeks it was so good. Enter woods anywhere and pop out on a random road anywhere. Rinse/repeat. Riding trails isn't adventure really compared to go anywhere crust cruising.

So how bout blissful corn snow riding on smooth packed bases on super narrow singletrack with endless non studded skinny tire grip? 40 degrees and sunny after a flash freeze last nite for my lunch time ride today. Totally nailed it. Best snow conditions ridden yet for me this year.

I've owned and ridden the krap out of fatbikes year round but I must say being back on stud less 29 on self prepared trail is just plain awesome. So much quicker and more nimble than fat from my experience.

Today


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I ride 12 months out of the year, and I live in Montana. I don't own a fat bike. Winter can start as early as September and go all the way to June. I've lived here my whole life and have seen it snow up to a foot every month of the year. Snow and cold are a fact of life. I love riding bikes more than anything else, so I continue to ride.

I have an enduro style bike with 2.5" DH tires that is my year-round bike, and I've got studded tires for my 29" hardtail for riding on trails that are solid ice.

The average temperature is around 25-30 degrees F. Plenty warm to ride. I have ridden as low as 14 degrees, but below that's my cutoff until I can find warmer gloves. It can get ridiculous, like the -55* F we had last winter near Butte, but those spells typically don't last more than a few days. I wish it was that way more often so fewer people would move here.

Regarding trail conditions, I generally only have to wait a few days after a fresh storm. Then, local hikers pack the trail down enough that even 2.1s barely leave a track. I do climbs in excess of 10% grade quite regularly. Unfortunately, many of our trails are closed to biking in favor of skiers who actually don't ski those trails. But we make do.

The best part is, in midsummer, when people in big southwestern cities are riding elbow to elbow and tire to tire in 110+ degree heat, we're up here riding all day without seeing a soul. If that's your thing, that is. I won't ever move.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> What kind of world-class moron is surprised when they call a ski area in winter and find out it's ski season? Oh wait...I think I know!
> 
> You should go check out their wide open, smooth and groomed bike trails sometime. I'm sure you'd have a nice walk and cry on your way down the mountain. Please make sure to move your tired old ass out of the way so the little local kids with actual skills can get by you.


You're the one saying you can ride your trails during winter, not me. But I've ridden that trail, or something exactly like it in Canmore, BC. It was over an hour of constant tree roots. I suppose I could just head out into the woods and bushwhack my way for 3-4 minutes, and call it a double black diamond trail.

The most challenging ride you can find in your play park is 1000 feet long with 8 feet of climbing and 200 feet of decent. I've seen urban parks with more challenging and interesting trails. Just keep telling yourself how extreme you are, if you haven't already gotten a tattoo saying that. That trail is embarrassing and a total failure to the art of trail building. What's next, an extreme trail climbing over trash at your local landfill?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> You're the one saying you can ride your trails during winter, not me. But I've ridden that trail, or something exactly like it in Canmore, BC. It was over an hour of constant tree roots. I suppose I could just head out into the woods and bushwhack my way for 3-4 minutes, and call it a double black diamond trail.
> 
> The most challenging ride you can find in your play park is 1000 feet long with 8 feet of climbing and 200 feet of decent. I've seen urban parks with more challenging and interesting trails. Just keep telling yourself how extreme you are, if you haven't already gotten a tattoo saying that. That trail is embarrassing and a total failure to the art of trail building. What's next, an extreme trail climbing over trash at your local landfill?


Actually, when our local landfill gets capped some years down the road, I do hope to build some trails, a pumptrack and a DJ park there. Been talking about it for years now. Great use of space.

Besides that, you're obviously delusional on top of all the rest of your personality issues. Good luck with that. :thumbsup:

At least you've still got the band.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Boris Badenov said:


> ..... I've ridden that trail, or something exactly like it in Canmore, BC. It was over an hour of constant tree roots. ...
> /QUOTE]
> 
> It only took the guy in the video 2 minutes.....tells me all I need to know about Boris.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mileslong said:


> Boris Badenov said:
> 
> 
> > ..... I've ridden that trail, or something exactly like it in Canmore, BC. It was over an hour of constant tree roots. ...
> ...


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

This Boris twit has proven that he is unfamiliar with popular AZ trails so it’s no wonder that he is clueless about other locales as well. 

Dude need some serious help.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Switchblade2 said:


> It sure would be nice to get some recent pictures of MTBR members walking or riding the A lines on Moore Fun.


Hijacks thread to argue his right to sanitize any trail, any time, then wants to "steer things back on track". Good luck Switch. What a guy!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> It sure would be nice to get some recent pictures of MTBR members walking or riding the A lines on Moore Fun.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Switchblade2 said:


> It sure would be nice to get some recent pictures of MTBR members walking or riding the A lines on Moore Fun.


 Time put this to rest for a long winters nap. I'm usually pedaling, not taking pictures when I'm riding. And I take pictures for a living.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

mileslong said:


> Boris Badenov said:
> 
> 
> > ..... I've ridden that trail, or something exactly like it in Canmore, BC. It was over an hour of constant tree roots. ...
> ...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HAHAHA...I helped build some of those trails. Those are friends in the video. Here's my son riding there at 5 or 6 years old; they started making a bunch of easier trails around that time for little kids, tourists, and guys like you.






Just to point out once again how little you know compared to how much you think you know - the earlier section I posted the video of is just one connection choice of many that link upper mtn trails to mid and lower mtn trails. It doesn't 'go nowhere'. If you think you could ride it fast, I'd love to see that. I'm willing to bet you'd have trouble walking it. And it's nowhere near the toughest trail on the mountain - again, in the late '00s, the new school of mtb riders started showing up with inflated opinions of their own abilities and a mindset that they were entitled to easy, cleanable, 'flowy' trails. That's when they had to start changing the ratings on trails that had been forever intermediate/blue square to black and double-black because people were getting in way over their heads all the time. The trails that were true double-blacks were completely removed from maps and their entrances hidden from the general public.

Also, some of the trails in the video you posted that you declared lift-serviced are not; they start well above where lift-serviced terrain ends. The climb is cleanable, but not by most. The descent would make you lose what's left of your mind (and is easily one of my favorite trails in New England).


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> HAHAHA...they started making a bunch of easier trails around that time for little kids, tourists, and guys like you.


ROFL!!!! That is effein hilarious and ssssooooo true!


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

I lived out by the twin bridges beyond Outward Bound in the early/mid nineties when the mountain bike park trails extended all the way to the twin bridges then all the way along the river back to the ski area access road before the Jordan access rd was ever built. I didn't work till 3pm so my normal daily ride was twin bridges up the catch em trail up to the base of what would become Jordan bowl, then up to the top of white cap via work roads and singletrack then descend down to base of south ridge then climb all the way back up single track mostly to the top of North peak then descend backside to Sherwood Forest all the way back to twin bridges. Great morning ride. Fully rigid Rockhopper then upgraded to a prestige steel full rigid stump jumper. Those were the friggin days!


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

Sorry to hear your trail issue. Trails like that here get a "black diamond "symbol. I learned over the years all that means is the trail hasnt been dumbed down yet. It's just a matter of time. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> I lived out by the twin bridges beyond Outward Bound in the early/mid nineties when the mountain bike park trails extended all the way to the twin bridges then all the way along the river back to the ski area access road before the Jordan access rd was ever built. I didn't work till 3pm so my normal daily ride was twin bridges up the catch em trail up to the base of what would become Jordan bowl, then up to the top of white cap via work roads and singletrack then descend down to base of south ridge then climb all the way back up single track mostly to the top of North peak then descend backside to Sherwood Forest all the way back to twin bridges. Great morning ride. Fully rigid Rockhopper then upgraded to a prestige steel full rigid stump jumper. Those were the friggin days!


Nice! I've ridden all that stuff too, a good number of times. I used to have a 'thing' where I would never take a lift up a mountain I hadn't ridden up under my own power first, and we'd climb all that from down by the Brewery, then up the access roads up to the top of Locke Mtn and over to Barker. Backside on a rigid must've been eyeball-watering! 
A bunch of friends and I would rent a place for the entire DH season in Bethel for ten years straight. Only mountain that had trails that I wouldn't get bored with after a few weekends a season.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

2old said:


> Sorry to hear your trail issue. Trails like that here get a "black diamond "symbol. I learned over the years all that means is the trail hasnt been dumbed down yet. It's just a matter of time.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Yup. 
This was 'blue square' bitd:









This was 'green circle:










Boy have times changed!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mileslong said:


> ROFL!!!! That is effein hilarious and ssssooooo true!


"Hey, you think you can bring your kid up to shoot some video so people will stop whining about how hard the trails are here?" was about how the conversation went. Figured if they saw a 1st grader on a 16" rigid with a coaster brake doing it, it might inspire a little more suck-it-up attitude.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Nice! I've ridden all that stuff too, a good number of times. I used to have a 'thing' where I would never take a lift up a mountain I hadn't ridden up under my own power first, and we'd climb all that from down by the Brewery, then up the access roads up to the top of Locke Mtn and over to Barker. Backside on a rigid must've been eyeball-watering!
> A bunch of friends and I would rent a place for the entire DH season in Bethel for ten years straight. Only mountain that had trails that I wouldn't get bored with after a few weekends a season.


Love it. Ya SR riding was and is legit. Thanx for the fun memories share 👍


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> I helped build some of those trails. They started making a bunch of easier trails around that time for little kids, tourists, and guys like you.


https://www.facebook.com/wraithbicycles/photos/a.1552324768333129.1073741840.1550294391869500/1908622736036662/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/wraithbicycles/photos/a.1552324768333129.1073741840.1550294391869500/2041769116055356/?type=3&theater

So let me get this straight. In order to boast about the best trails you know of, and defend winter riding, you post a video of a 1000 foot long trail with 8 feet of climbing, located in a resort that isn't even open to bikes until next June 26th, and charges $269 for a season pass to ride that 2 minute long trail ride. Am I right? I guess if you turn around and take the chair lift back, you can ride it ten times in a row and then go home, knowing you rode a total of 2 miles and climbed 80 feet. And the trail the resort posted a video of, is what you have described as sanitized and braided, exactly what you said are unnecessary.

But you also want to let us know about the amazing Wraith mountain bikes I linked to above. You must be joking. They look like some sort of Frankenstein monster. Someone who drank a 12 pack of beer and then went out to his garage and started welding steel tubes together. Why not just strap a boat anchor on your back. They look like something I saw while watching Mecha-Godzilla.









Do they come with a $100,000 in life insurance, for when they fall apart as you ride off the chair lift ramp? A one-speed downhill mountain bike with 5" of travel. Does it come with an ejection seat and an air bag? It had to be a joke that went too far, right? Then there is the "Grunt". A front shock, if thats what you call it, that is guaranteed to snap off the first time down the mountain. They must know this as they didn't even paint over the welds. Why bother, it won't last long enough to worry about it. Then there is their skull logo. Sort of appropriate, since their bikes will kill you. You don't actually own one of them, do you?


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Careful Dahlinks, Boris is nogoodnik who major in smackdown jujitsu at Pottsylvania U. (Pee-Yew) with emphasis in evil-doing and wheelies. Natasha "Switch" Fatale is overdue for an appearance, as well. MTBR not safe for Moose and Squirrel.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ya see, Doris, the big difference between our bikes, our trails, and apparently ourselves is soul. Stick to riding plastic bikes on your neutered bureaucratic trails, then running home to e-stalk strangers and mabybe even slander a small builder you don't from a hole in the wall because you don't understand bikes as well as you think you do either. 
Total prick move.

And I'm pretty confident you ain't breaking ****. :lol:
We can let the people judge for themselves...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Love it. Ya SR riding was and is legit. Thanx for the fun memories share 


Dude, I could go on and on...I liked that single 2 minute run they had so much, I rode almost 200 days there over 10 or so years, and it's a 4 hour drive for me without traffic. We used to even make the drive to do trail work regularly enough that we got a kudos in a Bike magazine article about the place 'finding it's flow'. Oh the irony! 

Great mountain, great area. And somewhat on topic, the thing that kept bringing me back specifically was the challenge level. The River has always managed to keep some increasingly rare rawness to their trails. Love that place.


Couple old-school shots for ya'

Start of Backside










Start of Moose Tack










Wobbly Wheel (check out the classic SC Super 8!)










Exit of 2-By (the trail in the video I posted, the one that Doris says he rode hours of similar stuff)










All down from here, top of Locke after an hours' climb above the top of lift serviced terrain and a full day of riding behind that. Beer break with a bunch of good friends, then a few thousand feet of raw and steep. :thumbsup:


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

veloborealis said:


> Careful Dahlinks, Boris is nogoodnik who major in smackdown jujitsu at Pottsylvania U. (Pee-Yew) with emphasis in evil-doing and wheelies. Natasha "Switch" Fatale is overdue for an appearance, as well. MTBR not safe for Moose and *Skworel*.


fify

-F


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

I would like to apologize to Mikesee for contributing to the hijacking of this thread by being one of the ones feeding the trolls.

My New Year's resolutions are to put in more miles on a bike, -any bike any where any time- and to not feed trolls.

Happy Holidays to all and more smiles and miles to ya!


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

mileslong said:


> I would like to apologize to Mikesee for contributing to the hijacking of this thread by being one of the ones feeding the trolls.
> 
> My New Year's resolutions are to put in more miles on a bike, -any bike any where any time- and to not feed trolls.
> 
> Happy Holidays to all and more smiles and miles to ya!


Agree with the sentiment, but this thread died for all practical purposes back on page 2 thanks to Boris and Natasha. Only good for comic relief now. Should be moved to Off Off Camber.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

veloborealis said:


> Agree with the sentiment, but this thread died for all practical purposes back on page 2 thanks to Boris and Natasha. Only good for comic relief now. Should be moved to Off Off Camber.


Or the recycle bin.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Yup. Merry Christmas to ya'll.

At least it was good for some well deserved laughs at others' expense.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ya see, Doris, the big difference between our bikes, our trails, and apparently ourselves is soul. Stick to riding plastic bikes on your neutered bureaucratic trails, then running home to e-stalk strangers and mabybe even slander a small builder you don't from a hole in the wall because you don't understand bikes as well as you think you do either.
> Total prick move.
> 
> And I'm pretty confident you ain't breaking ****.
> ...


Amazing bikes!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

veloborealis said:


> Careful Dahlinks, Boris is nogoodnik who major in smackdown jujitsu at Pottsylvania U. (Pee-Yew) with emphasis in evil-doing and wheelies. Natasha "Switch" Fatale is overdue for an appearance, as well. MTBR not safe for Moose and Squirrel.


That was fantastic. Fearless leader proud of you.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Boris Badenov said:


> That was fantastic. Fearless leader proud of you.


Boris, as a henchman you are a numbskull, but as a numbskull you are without peer. I think I'll keep you. Once you have groveled sufficiently, prepare for your next mission. There's this little thread, you see, over in the Fatbike Forum...


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Sunday river looks rad! That's more my style too but I also like the flowy, pedally stuff as well.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Switchblade2 said:


> velo you are the king of personal attacks, but when it comes to actually creating new trails and the maintenance of existing trails you appear to be failing. Your main contribution to the mountain biking community is personally attacking people on MTBR who actually are major contributors to the sport. If that makes you sleep well at night, so be it. As far as the OP's original post goes the message is pretty clear. B lines are here to stay and making an appeal to not create new ones or maintain the existing ones goes on deaf ears.


Lighten up and laugh, Natasha. I'm pretty sure even Boris has been having some fun with this thread. Post #539 was a hoot. As far as your disability goes, I just thought you didn't listen or that English wasn't your first language, Dahlink. I'll consider going easier on you in the future.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

veloborealis said:


> Agree with the sentiment, but this thread died for all practical purposes back on page 2 thanks to Boris and Natasha. Only good for comic relief now. Should be moved to Off Off Camber.


I don't know, I've been learning a great deal about the very cool east coast trails.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

raisingarizona said:


> Sunday river looks rad! That's more my style too but I also like the flowy, pedally stuff as well.


It does look cool. If I was still making cross-country road trips with the camper, I'd be there riding next summer. I'd love to see that design style up in Flagstaff. But there is probably a huge difference between getting it done on Forest Service land and getting a privately owned mountain ski resort to pony up the cabbage to build something they can then market to downhill riders and charge $269 for a season pass. But it clearly has been a success.

But be truthful, have you ever seen a bike or front suspension like what Wraith Bikes is building?

























Wraith seems to be the Rube Goldberg of mountain bike builders. They seem to be attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist and offer a product almost certain to injure riders. And I'm unclear of the demand for one-speed 5" travel dual drive train bizarro front shock steel downhill rigs, unless they were meant to be used as sacrifices at the Red Bull Flugtag challenge...

https://www.facebook.com/wraithbicy...294391869500/2041769116055356/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/wraithbicy...294391869500/1908622736036662/?type=3&theater


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Those bikes aren't 'products'. No two are the same, each is built for a certain reason or person. They aren't available on the open market, and the main goal of the company is not financial. You couldn't buy one if you tried, so no need to worry about it. 

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/structure-cycleworks-linkage-fork-crankworx-whistler-2017.html


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Boris Badenov said:


> ...But be truthful, have you ever seen a bike or front suspension like what Wraith Bikes is building?


You haven't seen anything yet


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Dude, I could go on and on...I liked that single 2 minute run they had so much, I rode almost 200 days there over 10 or so years, and it's a 4 hour drive for me without traffic. We used to even make the drive to do trail work regularly enough that we got a kudos in a Bike magazine article about the place 'finding it's flow'. Oh the irony!
> 
> Great mountain, great area. And somewhat on topic, the thing that kept bringing me back specifically was the challenge level. The River has always managed to keep some increasingly rare rawness to their trails. Love that place.
> 
> ...


Yessssssssss!!!!!


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Curveball said:


> I don't know, I've been learning a great deal about the very cool east coast trails.


We have fun. Come play with us!!!


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Those bikes aren't 'products'. No two are the same, each is built for a certain reason or person. They aren't available on the open market, and the main goal of the company is not financial. You couldn't buy one if you tried, so no need to worry about it.


Well, ok. I'm not sure I see any reason. Maybe as a piece of art to mount on the wall. That way nobody gets hurt. But the owner seemed to mention the green bike (Mantis) was for sale. I use to own a Mantis (pro-floater), and it actually rode fairly well for circa 1996. I also owned a Pro-Flex 956 with a Girvin Vector fork, so I know that sometimes an idea seems to make sense, but doesn't perform well. There is no way that second front shock on the red bike survives even one hard ride. And how about some pics of people riding up those mountains. Maybe not those chunky fellas wearing layers of padding, but there must be a couple skinny guys who can climb in your circle. Better still, how about a video of someone riding up a long steep climb on snow. Several have stated it's no problem to do, even on a skinny tire bike.

I've got some ideas you can pass along to those builders;


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

veloborealis said:


> Agree with the sentiment, but this thread died for all practical purposes back on page 2 thanks to Boris and Natasha. Only good for comic relief now. Should be moved to Off Off Camber.


I'm glad we can all agree on who the culprits were that poisoned the soup.


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## frozenmonkey (Apr 30, 2012)

Canmore is a town in Alberta, Canada, located approximately 81 kilometres (50 mi) west of Calgary near the southeast boundary of Banff National Park. It is located in the Bow Valley within Alberta's Rockies.

Canmore, BC does not exist.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Switchblade2 said:


> ..... list the good deeds they created to give fellow mountain bikers a fun riding experience.


I am confused by your claims of being personally attacked; from my perspective most of the personal attacks have come from your thinly veiled derogatory comparisons highlighting your superiority over others.

"The 1%'ers" have contributed massively by allowing all of us who enjoy riding the trails as we find them to do so without making this an all inclusive activity like bowling or checkers. ( In other words ,we haven't "improved" anything)

It has been my experience that those of us who don't provide video evidence of our trail maintenance activities are too busy riding or working to set up video production. Besides, it would have been very dangerous for me to shoot selfies while I cut and moved 37 blowdowns last month from the multi-use trail near my home.

I didn't do it to post it and get stroked by strangers on the interweb, I did it because I want to ride and walk my dog in those woods. I did it because I get to chuckle when other users refer to the "the crew" that did a great job clearing. My wife is the only person that knows I did the work, I did it because I wanted to.

Your need to be recognized for your accomplishments and your passive aggressive personal attacks tell me that you live a sad, pathetic and lonely existence of your own creation. I suggest you look inside yourself for validation and stop seeking it externally through belittling others or comparing yourself to the rest of the world. You are probably a decent person, stop being a contrarian and see if the world looks and reacts differently to you.

Or perhaps you should seek professional help, maybe Boris can help you find a counselor.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Switchblade2 said:


> ...I challenge the people who negatively rep'ed me to list the good deeds they created to give fellow mountain bikers a fun riding experience. All I have been able to tell from this thread is that they are great at personal attacks on MTBR. Come on guys tell us what your accomplishments are. Give us some names of your personal accomplishments, so we can at least give you some respect.


You are dying for someone to ask you to list your accomplishments so you can pound your chest some more. Start another thread to brag about what you have done. You and Doris have poisoned this one enough. 'Koff


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

mileslong said:


> I am confused by your claims of being personally attacked; from my perspective most of the personal attacks have come from your thinly veiled derogatory comparisons highlighting your superiority over others.
> 
> "The 1%'ers" have contributed massively by allowing all of us who enjoy riding the trails as we find them to do so without making this an all inclusive activity like bowling or checkers. ( In other words ,we haven't "improved" anything)
> 
> ...


Mileslong sums things up pretty well, I'd say. If you want anything more than ridicule from me, Switch, you need to learn a few simple rules about how to conduct yourself on the internet. Think back about why you have been banned from mtbr in the past. Then think about why you always need to come back here, and why you always get the same responses from the community. I gave you a green chiclet, Switch, for all your contributions. Consider it a Lifetime Achievement Award. Here's another little gift: I actually agree with your position on the B Line issue, for most trails, but not purpose-built, expert trails. Like Rockman said about Moore Fun, "leave it alone." Your arguments did nothing to persuade me because they were too extreme and condescending . Rock, Boris (in his non-comedic posts) , and raisingarizona made many good points. So if your real intent is to persuade, cut the BS. If you just want to be an ass carry on.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

Ah, the sweet hypocrisy of Boris attempting to ridicule Mike for shooting video during a ride and then John Finch and clueless Boris stomping their widdle feet and demanding video from normal people. 

It’s almost as funny as John Finch draping himself in the mantle of uber-trail maintainer when he’s been banned from National Forests because he’s a self-righteous tool.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> I challenge the people who negatively rep'ed me to list the good deeds they created to give fellow mountain bikers a fun riding experience. All I have been able to tell from this thread is that they are great at personal attacks on MTBR. Come on guys tell us what your accomplishments are. Give us some names of your personal accomplishments, so we can at least give you some respect.


My favorite accomplishment lately was being lucky enough to be the one who turned your green chiclet red.

Sometimes it's the little things...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

radair said:


> You are dying for someone to ask you to list your accomplishments so you can pound your chest some more. Start another thread to brag about what you have done. You and Doris have poisoned this one enough. 'Koff


I almost wish you were the kind of guy to list some of what you've done. 
But then again, the people whose opinions matter already know.

:thumbsup:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> I don't get it. But then again, I wouldn't.
> 
> Oh well, back to another long lonely day of attempting Ron Jeremy's favorite party trick. Hope I don't hurt my back again. :sad:


Good luck with that. Be sure to stretch first.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> ....I challenge the people who negatively rep'ed me to list the good deeds they created to give fellow mountain bikers a fun riding experience. All I have been able to tell from this thread is that they are great at personal attacks on MTBR. Come on guys tell us what your accomplishments are. Give us some names of your personal accomplishments, so we can at least give you some respect.


I stop and give everyone I meet on the trail a hug and complimentary GU.

I also support keeping trails technical, which I most certainly consider to be a "good deed."

I support my local trail building associations and volunteer when I can.

I have no need for your respect.

And while I'm normally very reserved about giving anyone negative rep, your latest post was all the encouragement I needed.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Happy Festivus everyone!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Traildoc/50cents making more new friends I see.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I'm glad we can all agree on who the culprits were that poisoned the soup.


Yup, you just need to get yourself a rope and find a sturdy tree, right? Run along back to your Bigfoot thread and entertain the pathologically boring folks on off-camber. slapheadmofo has been doing a good job of defending himself and his home turf. I admire him for that. He doesn't need a ankle biting twit to stand up in the peanut gallery to shout support for him.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

frozenmonkey said:


> Canmore is a town in Alberta, Canada, located approximately 81 kilometres (50 mi) west of Calgary near the southeast boundary of Banff National Park. It is located in the Bow Valley within Alberta's Rockies.
> 
> Canmore, BC does not exist.


Thank you for the correction. I forgot about crossing over into Alberta during our adventure from Vancouver eastward. Banff was full of great riding trails and Canmore was a lot of fun. There was no place we visited in Canada that wasn't amazingly beautiful, and full of friendly people.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Good luck with that. Be sure to stretch first.


slapheadmofo, I sort of was expecting you to do a lot of name-calling and wait for me to respond, so you could then justify banning me. It's sleazy, but seems to be your M.O.

What I think is going over the line is suggesting that I said something I did not say, by making something up and putting quotes around it that tell everyone here I said it. You will need to delete that now. I don't mind you being simple-minded and short tempered, but try to play according to the rules you are told to enforce here. You seem proud to be a part of the sleazy element that uses filthy language and makes sexually suggestive remarks as a way to attack others who don't fall in line with the way you think. Try to do better or send a message to the super mods and ask them to remove your moderator status.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> slapheadmofo, I sort of was expecting you to do a lot of name-calling and wait for me to respond, so you could then justify banning me.


Oh? Is that what you were expecting? 
Kinda like thinking I'm the type of person who gets told what to do?
Sorry....wrong again!


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## Fat-in-Fundy (Feb 21, 2015)

lol 
Damn, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to un-see that!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Seemed fitting.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Oh? Is that what you were expecting?
> Kinda like thinking I'm the type of person who gets told what to do?
> Sorry....wrong again!


There is a Super-Mod, whatever that is, that wishes to have a word with you about how you perceive your responsibilities a Mod. I'll wait to see how that conversation goes. He may mention that if I made a fake quote with you boasting about something like pedophilia with one's own son, it would be more than just a little inappropriate and offensive, and would result in some sort of discipline. Why can't you see that your actions are not the best response to comments I have made here. That MTBR wants something more out of their Mods than the vulgarity you seem mired in. I'm only asking for an apology, not for you to be removed. Think it over. You do not have immunity here.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Switchblade2 said:


> A friendly reminder for those people riding MF over the Christmas holiday, please take some pictures of you walking the A lines.


I'm surprised you've been able to breath this entire thread.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> There is a Super-Mod, whatever that is, that wishes to have a word with you about how you perceive your responsibilities a Mod. I'll wait to see how that conversation goes. He may mention that if I made a fake quote with you boasting about something like pedophilia with one's own son, it would be more than just a little inappropriate and offensive, and would result in some sort of discipline. Why can't you see that your actions are not the best response to comments I have made here. That MTBR wants something more out of their Mods than the vulgarity you seem mired in. I'm only asking for an apology, not for you to be removed. Think it over. You do not have immunity here.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Switchblade2 said:


> .....I am motivated by providing a good user experience for the majority of the mountain bike public...... I am sure they will continue to personally attack me because they can't change my mindset how to maintain trails.


The most fascinating aspects of these claims is that they are absolutely unsupported by your behavior. Your insistence that your way is the only way merely indicates that being a juvenile narcissist and engaging in internet conflict is your motivation.

I will say a prayer for you.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Switchblade2 said:


> This whole rep thing it getting pretty interesting. Once again we have personal attackers who probably have done very little to create and maintain trails for the majority of the mountain bike community. Like I have stated previously I am not motivated by rep. I am motivated by providing a good user experience for the majority of the mountain bike public. It seems like the 5%'ers don't like that PASSION, so I am sure they will continue to personally attack me because they can't change my mindset how to maintain trails.


Many people have posted on MTBR for years. Many people here have passion for this sport. Very few have been banned from MTBR once, let alone three, or is it four, times. Why do you think that is? Your concept of trail maintenance is not that controversial, though your insistence that it applies to any trail, any time is extreme. Many here have suggested that it may have more to do with the way you present your ideas and conduct yourself. When people take issue with your insinuating, passive aggressive attacks and your purposeful twisting or ommission of facts to promote your agenda, you start whining that everyone is attacking you. Almost as pathetic is your incessant attention seeking for your work on behalf of the "average" mountain biker. It's obvious to me that your passion for the spotlight vastly exceeds your passion for trails and biking. It's also obvious that you have little respect for others. Respect is something you have to give to get.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

You know, I was actually feeling a little bad about my rep comment to you, Switch. I thought it might have been excessively harsh. But seeing now that you are re-posting your rep comments (again) in a bid for further attention seeking just confirms what I said. I feel better now, thanks.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

veloborealis said:


> Many people have posted on MTBR for years. Many people here have passion for this sport. Very few have been banned from MTBR once, let alone three, or is it four, times. Why do you think that is? Your concept of trail maintenance is not that controversial, though your insistence that it applies to any trail, any time is extreme. Many here have suggested that it may have more to do with the way you present your ideas and conduct yourself. When people take issue with your insinuating, passive aggressive attacks and your purposeful twisting or ommission of facts to promote your agenda, you start whining that everyone is attacking you. Almost as pathetic is your incessant attention seeking for your work on behalf of the "average" mountain biker. It's obvious to me that your passion for the spotlight vastly exceeds your passion for trails and biking. It's also obvious that you have little respect for others. Respect is something you have to give to get.


Bingo! Nailed it. And for this you get a green rep.

:madmax:You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to veloborealis again.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

What a cluster F$%k this thread is. Agreed with Mikesee, the OP. It's frustrating to continually find cheater lines on technical trails. We destroy them as soon as we find them.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Uh oh...


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Switchblade2 said:


> I think this is a good time to do a poll to see how many mountain bikers viewing this thread would rather walk a trail with a lot of unrideable sections or ride a trail that was challenging but totally rideable?


Results would be meaningless. Unrideable and challenging are subjective terms, different for every rider. In a sense, I answer this question every time I pick a trail. I have been known to pick both, more of the latter than the former. You never give up, do you? Rhetorical question. Look it up.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

If finding a trail that fulfills those skill set requirements is what I desired, then I would go ride a trail that is designed and built to fulfill those skill set requirements. 

I would not go to a trail that's too technical or difficult for my given experience and want to dumb it down to meet my immediate abilities.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Switchblade2 said:


> I think this is a good time to do a poll to see how many mountain bikers viewing this thread would rather walk a trail with a lot of unrideable sections or ride a trail that was challenging but totally rideable?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Yepper...


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Cleared2land said:


> I would not go to a trail that's too technical or difficult for my given experience and want to dumb it down to meet my immediate abilities.


Sig worthy^^^^^^^thank you.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Boris Badenov said:


> I guess the difference, or the main difference with Phoenix in the winter, is that people come here from all over the world in large numbers, to get away from the cold and ride on dry trails.


To be fair I would rather be in Alaska in January then Phoenix in July. Just about any activity can be enjoyable in the winter if you dress right, but short of riding at 3:00am there is nothing you can do outside that is enjoyable in Phoenix in July.

I do enjoy a winter trip to Arizona though. Nice to feel some heat mid-summer.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> If finding a trail that fulfills those skill set requirements is what I desired, then I would go ride a trail that is designed and built to fulfill those skill set requirements.
> 
> I would not go to a trail that's too technical or difficult for my given experience and want to dumb it down to meet my immediate abilities.


There are trails that are easy from end to end. There are trails that have challenges in a few spots. There are trails that have long, steep climbs. You might enjoy 90% of a trail and are not going to skip it just because of a few sections that are too steep or too technical. There is no way to make a b-line to avoid a steep climb. There is a simple way to build a b-line to offer riders an option around a tech challenge that is above their ability. It can often be done in a way that you can barely notice it and it doesn't have any effect on the riders who seek the most challenging line.

What you see being expressed here is people saying that even if a b-line can be built around a tech section some might find dangerous or beyond what they feel is worth the risk, and it will barely be noticed, and will not effect their ride through that section, the very fact it exists, makes them angry and they feel justified in removing that option for other riders simply because they don't think other riders deserve the right to skip past super tech sections, unless they walk them. They want to put other riders in their proper place, even if what those other riders are doing does not harm any other riders or the trail.

Moore Fun is not a difficult trail to ride, for the most part. There are a half-dozen or so sections that require some advanced skills. One or two sections that almost no rider will clean. We watched the video of two very skilled riders failing to clean those sections. We also watched a video of those two riders piling rocks on the b-line just because it existed, not because it interfered with their experience. In one part of the video, Mikesee is seen sanitizing (removing a rock) from his a-line, just before he asks his friend to film him attempting to ride it. I suppose that rock removal can be justified. I don't care.

The mod supports a mountain bike park that offers 20 miles of trails that appeal to beginners to experts. We saw a video of some good riders going downhill on a trail that was sanitized and it also had a b-line option. One rider went on the a-line and one rider rode on the b-line. They both appeared to be having fun.

Why are people posting messages that say the b-line destroys their trails and their experience riding the trail, if that b-line is not being used to access the a-line?

Trails I have designed and built have developed new lines over the years. They made sense. I thought my original lines made sense at the time, but years later I could see why riders created a new line. I was not offended that after a few more years, most every rider was chasing the new line. They were not required to get my permission. They made the decision to alter the trail for their benefit or the benefit of others. So be it.

Today I rode some tech trails. I had a great day of riding and was able to choose the a-lines, even when I saw a b-line. I dabbed once, but it was mostly because of a steep section over loose rock, created by horses. And yes, sometimes horses create b-lines. So do hikers. They get covered up and then they get uncovered a few days later.

Don't limit your rides to only trails that are 100% at or below your riding level. If you can ride 90% of a trail and enjoy that trail, ride it. Decide if you'd rather walk the parts you can't ride or if you want to look for a ride around that one or two tech sections.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

LMN said:


> To be fair I would rather be in Alaska in January then Phoenix in July. Just about any activity can be enjoyable in the winter if you dress right, but short of riding at 3:00am there is nothing you can do outside that is enjoyable in Phoenix in July.
> 
> I do enjoy a winter trip to Arizona though. Nice to feel some heat mid-summer.


Two summers ago, Phoenix had record setting cool temps in June. It was great. But the best riding weather starts the second half of October, and then runs straight thru June, or halfway thru June some years. That's 8 months a great riding weather. The other four months is hot by 10-11am. We start riding at sunrise, or 5am. Monsoon season starts in early July. Sometimes it clouds up and rains and the temps drop from well over 100 to less than 80 degrees. During long stretches of summer heat, we drive an hour or so up into the mountains and ride in Prescott, or go 2 hours to Flagstaff, where the temps are 30 degrees less than Phoenix.

We rode today and it was 68 degrees. We will do a Christmas ride tomorrow and it will be 70-75 degrees.

I've ridden in winter conditions in Boise, years ago, and it was fun sometimes.

It's good to see a fan of Pre on this site. He was someone I looked up to, even though I was an 800 meter runner, not a 5k stud like him.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Boris Badenov said:


> Two summers ago, Phoenix had record setting cool temps in June. It was great. But the best riding weather starts the second half of October, and then runs straight thru June, or halfway thru June some years. That's 8 months a great riding weather. The other four months is hot by 10-11am. We start riding at sunrise, or 5am. Monsoon season starts in early July. Sometimes it could up and rains and the temps drop from well over 100 to less than 80 degrees. During long stretches of summer heat, we drive an hour or so up into the mountains and ride in Prescott, or go 2 hours to Flagstaff, where the temps are 30 degrees less than Phoenix.


I am in Kamloops BC. Our typical good riding season is early march to start of December. This year the season went longer, last week 90% of trails still had great riding on regular mountain bikes. Now it is -27C, riding isn't a lot of fun. But in a week it could be warm again and we will be riding. For a couple of years we had great riding all winter. I am only 3hr drive to the coast where, other then being a little wet, the riding can be quite good through winter months. My wife and I will quite often go to Squamish and do some really big days in January.

Phoenix is like everyplace else, 8 months of great riding and 4 months in which only the hard-core ride. Your great months of riding just match up with everybody else's poor months.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Switchblade2 said:


> Hacksaw thanks for the early Christmas present. It good to know that at least two people understand the PROCESS.


Two out of ten ain't bad.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

LMN said:


> I am in Kamloops BC. Our typical good riding season is early march to start of December. This year the season went longer, last week 90% of trails still had great riding on regular mountain bikes. Now it is -27C, riding isn't a lot of fun. But in a week it could be warm again and we will be riding. For a couple of years we had great riding all winter. I am only 3hr drive to the coast where, other then being a little wet, the riding can be quite good through winter months. My wife and I will quite often go to Squamish and do some really big days in January.
> 
> Phoenix is like everyplace else, 8 months of great riding and 4 months in which only the hard-core ride. Your great months of riding just match up with everybody else's poor months.


Riding in Canada was great. We rode in Revelstoke and went through Kamloops, but didn't stop because of some bad weather. The only concern we had about riding in Canada was the bears. We turned around on one ride after spotting a bear. A couple months earlier, a bear had mauled and killed a couple in a tent, near Banff. We took precaution and had several types of bear defense, but I'd rather not have to think about it. Phoenix is not much different. There will be rattlesnakes on the trails. You rarely notice them until it is too late. One struck at me and hit my downtime, just missing my leg. Another would have got me but I rode by him so closely that I nearly bumped into his head, as he was coiled on a high spot next to the trail. I guess he was caught off guard and failed to bite me.

Something I enjoy about riding in the northwest is that the trails are so nice and tacky. The moisture makes the trails perfectly grippy. There are few puddles and almost no mud because of all the vegetation on the trail that turns it spongy. -27c sounds cold. I'm waiting for the outdoor temperature to rise above 60F before I start my ride today. We are expecting a high above 70 degrees.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Boris Badenov said:


> Riding in Canada was great. We rode in Revelstoke and went through Kamloops, but didn't stop because of some bad weather. The only concern we had about riding in Canada was the bears. We turned around on one ride after spotting a bear. A couple months earlier, a bear had mauled and killed a couple in a tent, near Banff. We took precaution and had several types of bear defense, but I'd rather not have to think about it. Phoenix is not much different. There will be rattlesnakes on the trails. You rarely notice them until it is too late. One struck at me and hit my downtime, just missing my leg. Another would have got me but I rode by him so closely that I nearly bumped into his head, as he was coiled on a high spot next to the trail. I guess he was caught off guard and failed to bite me.
> 
> Something I enjoy about riding in the northwest is that the trails are so nice and tacky. The moisture makes the trails perfectly grippy. There are few puddles and almost no mud because of all the vegetation on the trail that turns it spongy. -27c sounds cold. I'm waiting for the outdoor temperature to rise above 60F before I start my ride today. We are expecting a high above 70 degrees.


Revelstoke and Kamloops are wicked places to ride. I grew up in Revelstoke, and did a lot of the original trail work there. On the theme of this thread it is interesting to see the on going battle as the trails there get easier and easier with time.

I defineltly miss the old slippery ultra techy trails that you could only clean on a good day. But as the trails have been made easier it has certainly grown the sport. Growing up it was a busy month if you saw anyone on the trails, now 10% of the town is members of the cycling club.

The ultra-techy trails actually still exist. You just can't find them on trail forks.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Switchblade2 said:


> LMN I think you have just made the point of this whole thread. The majority of today's riders are looking for fun trails to ride not walk. The members of those cycling clubs are happy riding a B line instead of walking an A line.


Trails with A and B lines are great and massive boost to growth in mountain biking. In BC at least, the growth of mountain biking has resulted in a massive growth the amount of trails. Most towns in BC have trail net-works with at least 100km of single track and are growing at a rapid rate.

However "Halo" trails still have a place. I have been watching this thread for a while and just other day decided to look up where "Moore Fun" is. As soon as I looked at the trail it brought back memories of riding the trail 15 years ago. At the time I distinctly remember it as being one of the trickier trails I had ridden. One of those few trails that is on my "I want to be able to clean that" list.

In Kamloops one of our few slow janky awesomely awkward trails just got modernized. The guys who did, did it right. They ask for the OK from the original builders and the changes are positive. The changes didn't really bother me because I am at level where I am clean most the time, but riders who could only clean it on their best day were not overly happy. Even though the original tech lines are there, cleaning the trail does not mean what it once did.

"Halo" trails have changed. Now a "Halo" trail is one with big gap jumps, 



a local example.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Boris Badenov said:


> There are trails that are easy from end to end. There are trails that have challenges in a few spots. There are trails that have long, steep climbs. You might enjoy 90% of a trail and are not going to skip it just because of a few sections that are too steep or too technical. There is no way to make a b-line to avoid a steep climb. There is a simple way to build a b-line to offer riders an option around a tech challenge that is above their ability. It can often be done in a way that you can barely notice it and it doesn't have any effect on the riders who seek the most challenging line.
> 
> What you see being expressed here is people saying that even if a b-line can be built around a tech section some might find dangerous or beyond what they feel is worth the risk, and it will barely be noticed, and will not effect their ride through that section, the very fact it exists, makes them angry and they feel justified in removing that option for other riders simply because they don't think other riders deserve the right to skip past super tech sections, unless they walk them. They want to put other riders in their proper place, even if what those other riders are doing does not harm any other riders or the trail.
> 
> ...


Why can't more of your posts be like this? I agree with a lot of it.

I can't speak for Moore Fun because I've never ridden it -- but what I've seen and have a problem with is the A-lines taken out completely. Case in point, a local trail that I mentioned on page one that had a 600+ pound rock removed. This particular boulder was in fact helping PREVENT erosion and had a smooth natural "b" line around it. Nobody was forced to ride off it. I liked it because at speed you could drop a good 5 feet to a natural transition. At some point, somebody made the decision that NOBODY ought to be able to do that. And now it's gone. What used to be an "A" and a "B" option is now just one lame "C" option.

Another example: We've got a very popular trail in my town that was purpose built for mountain biking. It was designed to be a clockwise loop with a steep climb for three miles and then a very fast downhill that is decidedly a flow trail but it has a few mildly technical sections. Hikers are discouraged from using the downhill side, and for the most part, they avoid it. In a nutshell, it is a trail that you can ride FAST without really any fear.

There is one section that a friend of mine built that changed a fall-line route into a sweeping, bermed switchback that turns perhaps even more than 180 degrees before turning the other way. It is difficult to take the turn at a high speed because the direction change is so drastic, despite being well built with a tall berm.

However, many riders have taken to cutting the whole switchback and launching off a berm just above it; creating a landing zone that spreads loose dirt and debris onto the sanctioned trail. I presume these people are using an app that we all know and love.

It grates me though, because it is not the sanctioned line, and it's not even a "b" line. It's a complete reroute by some users to get a faster time. My friend was authorized to build the section exactly the way he did. When riders continue to build lines as they see fit -- it's a slippery slope and the way I see it -- it's a gateway to losing access. And we can't afford to lose any more.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Switchblade2 said:


> Hacksaw thanks for the early Christmas present. It good to know that at least two people understand the PROCESS.


My pleasure! We may not agree on everything but if we did what a boring world this would be.

Happy Holidays!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Switchblade2 said:


> LMN thanks for the nice post. I was in Kamloops in 2001. We rode several areas there, but I don't remember riding that trail on my Cannodale Lefty. Is there a B line between the gap jumps?????


Kamloops in 2001 and Kamloops now have very few overlapping trails. I think we are pushing around 300kms of legal single track now-a-days.

There definitely is no B-lines on that trail. However, the riding area is really well designed and well managed, there is a nice progression in the difficulty level from true novice lines to the one I showed. There actually is even one trail with much larger jumps but it is opened up for Pro only competitions.

Personally, I am quite happy with trail rating systems. A trail that is black, shouldn't be made blue by adding B-lines. Of course the problem is trail rating systems are very regional.

A black trail rated trail in Moab or Sedona is a blue trail in Squamish or Whistler. Even within BC trail rating systems are all over place. Most of the black trails in Kamloops really are blue trails.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

Switchblade2 said:


> As I said previously rep isn't important to me.


...and then the sanitizer John Finch posts about rep once again, accompanied by a screenshot.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Wow, what a read.... took me most of the morning to get through this while also attending to work.

My first comment, Stop all personal attacks on other users. No name calling, not even something as simple as "snowflake". There is no room for personal attacks on anyone no matter what their opinions are. This also applies for subtle passive aggressive comments.

Secondly, keep in mind that trail access, management and modification or maintenance is handled differently across this very large nation. What works or does not work on your local trails may or may not apply to the one being discussed, in this case, Moore Fun.

Try to be respectful of others opinions even if you disagree with it. try to see the view point of the person posting.

I deleted a handful of comments that were off-base.

I can certainly see the pro's n Cons on both sides of this. It is disappointing to me to see other trail users (could be hikers, bikers or horseback riders) cut a corner or a switchback. I also am not a fan of someone taking a technical line and making it "easy for everyone". I would much rather see a easier B line created in those cases.

There is also much to be said about not riding above ones skill level, not choosing to ride a "very difficult" or a Black Diamond trail when you don't have the skills and modifying it to meet your own needs.

I have never been to Moore Fun, but I did see this (http://www.copmoba.org/userfiles/files/kokopelli-loops-east.pdf) and Moore Fun is clearly marked as "very difficult", harder than a Black Diamond.* I do have to ask however, is the trail clearly marked with signage to notify trail users of the trail difficulty rating?* A map is great, but very few people are going to dig around for a map online and then read it before just getting on a bike and going, and it sounds like there are a large number of tourists that visit this trail system every year.

Here is an example here in San Diego of a B-Line being built around a very difficult rock drop section that is lovingly called the "widow maker" on the Noble Canyon trail. The B-Line is a recent addition (3-4 years ago) and before it most of the guys I rode with just walked it. This is me the first time I encountered the B-line, took me by surprise:





I have no problem with the B-line being there at all. There is another section further to the end of that trail called "stairway to hell" and there is zero option to put in a B-line, I would personally hate to see someone come out and fill all the cracks with dirt. (not my video, but this is stairway to hell 



)

Mike mentioned in the first post that he helped design the Moore Fun trail over 20 years ago.... Can we reasonably suggest that in 20 years not one person is going to have their own idea of what the trail should or should not be and make some adjustments or add lines? I think the gist of what Boris and Co. are getting at is times change, user bases change and 1 person is not the sole owner of a trail unless it is on your own private land. The BLM is underfunded and cannot get out and fix all the lines, and don't be so self centered to think that your own view of what the trail "should" be is the only view that matters.

Some views of maintenance are different than others.

Is there an easy fix to this? no, there is not.

Does ranting and raving about it in the Passion Forum get users to stop changing the Moore Fun trail.... no they do not.

Keep it Civil or the thread gets the axe.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

cookieMonster said:


> Why can't more of your posts be like this? I agree with a lot of it.
> 
> I can't speak for Moore Fun because I've never ridden it -- but what I've seen and have a problem with is the A-lines taken out completely. Case in point, a local trail that I mentioned on page one that had a 600+ pound rock removed. This particular boulder was in fact helping PREVENT erosion and had a smooth natural "b" line around it. Nobody was forced to ride off it. I liked it because at speed you could drop a good 5 feet to a natural transition. At some point, somebody made the decision that NOBODY ought to be able to do that. And now it's gone. What used to be an "A" and a "B" option is now just one lame "C" option.
> 
> ...


I can picture the trails you are describing. I've ridden a trail in Bend, Oregon where you enter a high-banks turn that keeps turning and turning, almost a full circle. If you come in hot, you had better lean hard into the high berm and hold on tight. The structure is a marvel of great trail engineering. If someone, or a group of riders damaged that structure in order to straight line through it, they should be persuaded not to. I don't like building new trail braids for people like that, but in the grand scheme of things, it serves the greater cause to build a new route that totally bypasses the cool and fun feature, and allows the renegades to continue down the trail without without damaging the existing feature.

I have never moved a 600 pound boulder alone. I suspect it was a group effort. I don't understand their mindset. If you create a new line, and by doing so, destroy the existing challenge, you must realize it will quickly get the attention of the riders who liked the challenge. I would try to find another giant boulder uphill somewhere and use a group of people to very carefully move it into position to recreate the challenge. It will be a lot of work and you can get seriously injured moving such large boulders. And if you can accomplish that task, you have to believe the same people will return to ruin it again. I'd take extra time at that location and create a line you believe they would like, that does not interfere with the line going over the boulder. Also, do some investigative work. You live in a small biking community, so the chances are you can find out who worked on the two areas. Maybe you can have a discussion with them and agree to leave each others preferred lines alone.

I've seen riders vandalized trail signs and block a trail completely, as a form of protest to the trail work being done. They just want to vent their frustrations. In time, everything usually settles down.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

IMO it is morally and ethically wrong to change or even want to change a trail to keep a certain skillset of riders from having to dismount and walk a difficult section of a trail that SOMEONE ELSE took the time to build whether a sanctioned trail or not. There are plenty of trails out there to suit ones needs where they won't have to get off and walk. Challenging trails should be kept challenging. A b-line around a challenging section is nothing more than a trail braid, and trail braids are bad for the environment, unsightly, and can add confusion IMO. #keepsingletracksingle 

Signed/ a 25+ year trail builder and counting.....


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> IMO it is morally and ethically wrong to change or even want to change a trail to keep a certain skillset of riders from having to dismount and walk a difficult section of a trail that SOMEONE ELSE took the time to build whether a sanctioned trail or not. There are plenty of trails out there to suit ones needs where they won't have to get off and walk. Challenging trails should be kept challenging. A b-line around a challenging section is nothing more than a trail braid, and trail braids are bad for the environment, unsightly, and can add confusion IMO. #keepsingletracksingle
> 
> Signed/ a 25+ year trail builder and counting.....


The B-Line in the Video I linked of me crashing on the widowmaker was put in place by the land managers.

Just because you have been building trails for a long time does not mean those who are actually in charge of the land will just agree with your statements above.

Like I said, not all trail systems are managed the same way, so a blanket opinion about how trails should be built and managed is not going to work.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Mike mentioned in the first post that he helped design the Moore Fun trail over 20 years ago.... Can we reasonably suggest that in 20 years not one person is going to have their own idea of what the trail should or should not be and make some adjustments or add lines? I think the gist of what Boris and Co. are getting at is times change, user bases change and 1 person is not the sole owner of a trail unless it is on your own private land. The BLM is underfunded and cannot get out and fix all the lines, and don't be so self centered to think that your own view of what the trail "should" be is the only view that matters.


Where did you get the idea that Mike is the only person that thinks the trail shouldn't be dumbed down and that he is the sole owner of the trail?

You must have read a much different version of the thread than I did.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> and don't be so self centered to think that your own view of what the trail "should" be is the only view that matters.


It would great if you were directing that comment to the two trolls from AZ who hijacked this thread by refusing to acknowledge any other perspective except their own.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mileslong said:


> It would great if you were directing that comment to the two trolls from AZ who hijacked this thread by refusing to acknowledge any other perspective except their own.


It is directed at everyone, including Boris and Co.

Not one person on this board is a Land Manager, or if they are they have yet to make such claims.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> On the AZ Forum I have just offered to donate $7,920 of my time


What are you figuring for an hourly rate?

I've easily put 400 hours just into our town pumptrack over the past few years. 
And I know lots of guys that put in just as much time on trails, though I don't know if anyone has ever felt the need to put a dollar amount to it.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> The B-Line in the Video I linked of me crashing on the widowmaker was put in place by the land managers.
> 
> Just because you have been building trails for a long time does not mean those who are actually in charge of the land will just agree with your statements above.
> 
> Like I said, not all trail systems are managed the same way, so a blanket opinion about how trails should be built and managed is not going to work.


Yeah well I don't have to like it. Or agree with it.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Yeah well I don't have to like it. Or agree with it.


That is fine, voice your concerns with the Land Managers who have the authority to do something about it.

From what I have read here it sounds like that particular trail could benefit form signage at each entrance noting the extreme level of skill required and a note about not altering the trail in anyway.

Here is a sign on the Gatos Ravine Trail in San Diego, this trail can be connected to Noble Canyon(linked in my video) and is quite clear about the intents of the trail features.
This trail happens to have a smooth A-Line and all the features described are on the B-Lines. I use strava, but could care less about a fast time on this trail because I am having so much fun hitting all the features.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> From what I have read here it sounds like that particular trail could benefit form signage at each entrance noting the extreme level of skill required and a note about not altering the trail in anyway.
> 
> (snipped more (Moore?) San Diego fluff)


This is pretty self-explanatory.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Yup^^^^^and even that's a lot of signage.

That GATOS sign is over the top.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

dustedone said:


> This is pretty self-explanatory.
> 
> View attachment 1174325


Those are from the Moore Fun trail?

What does the yellow one say? I cannot read it.



HacksawReynolds said:


> That GATOS sign is over the top.


I disagree, if land managers want to keep the general public from altering trails signs like this are a must. The sign is very visible at the trail-head and no one who rides it can claim ignorance.

If the signs above are from Moore Fun it seems like a better sign stating NOT to alter the trails should be at every trail head in that riding area.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Those are from the Moore Fun trail?
> 
> What does the yellow one say? I cannot read it.


Please Close Gate


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

How about on the trail marker sign? what is posted there?


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> How about on the trail marker sign? what is posted there?


Too blurry for me to make out. Shows direction and if bikes, hikers, motorcycles and so on can ride it.

Looks like an 'FW' at top of post.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

GeoDon said:


> Too blurry for me to make out. Shows direction and if bikes, hikers, motorcycles and so on can ride it.
> 
> Looks like an 'FW' at top of post.


It's an FU sticker on top of the carsonite.

It amazes me that people are excusing trail sanitization because detailed signs forbidding altering the trail aren't posted at trailheads.

What other common sense notices need to be on these proposed billboards? No pooping on switchbacks? Do not cook in the middle of the trail? Yield to uphill hula-hoopers?


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## Humpy (Jun 7, 2015)

dustedone said:


> No pooping on switchbacks?


If this is going to be a rule there damn well better be a sign.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Signage is not the issue here. The BLM has done a pretty good job in the area. I see both sides of the argument but some trails you need to leave alone or don't ride it. Let the land manager decide with hopefully input from the local mtb community and advocacy group.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

dustedone said:


> It amazes me that people are excusing trail sanitization because detailed signs forbidding altering the trail aren't posted at trailheads.


I am not excusing it, just suggesting that a sign may help, especially since the OP is suggesting that trail users self-police the activity. If you confront someone and ask them to stop making A-Lines easier or to stop creating B-Lines, you can back it up with the Signage as an authority. Otherwise you are just another trail user of hundreds frequenting the park.

Also, I would suggest contacting the local BLM office to let them know of the infractions so they can take some action if they are willing. The OP claims he built the trail with the BLM, so he should have contacts there he can lean on for support as well.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rockman said:


> Signage is not the issue here. The BLM has done a pretty good job in the area. I see both sides of the argument. *Some trails you need to leave alone* or don't ride it and let the land manager decide with hopefully input from the local mtb community and advocacy group.
> 
> View attachment 1174363


Is that from the trails in question?

In regards to the statement of yours the I bolded. Who decides what trails are left alone? Is it by some sort of magic that all trail users will just know this and understand it because they are on the trail?

Education is key. I highly doubt the people doing this to Moore Fun read online forums about trail stewardship, and they certainly do not look at MTBR. In San Diego we have a problem with users building illegal trails on protected land, they do not frequent sites like this, they are usually high schoolers just getting into the sport.

Signage is at least one form of education.


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

I don't have time to read this whole thread, but my two cents.

With so many easy trails, why make the hard ones easier? Fruita has all those 18 Road trails and most of the Kokapelli trails are pretty easy too. I can understand though, if a trail is routed in an awkward manner, when there is an easier line available by just tossing a couple loose rocks out of the way, it's going to happen. Often problems like that can be avoided by routing the trail in a manner that avoids temptations. Most cheater line building people are lazy, so if it takes a lot of work to change the trail, they won't bother. When this happens to me, I usually blame myself and either let them have it if it doesn't negatively impact the way the trail rides for those it was intended for, or I cover up the line so well no one will likely want to take the time to uncover it. Also the signs like Holy Cross has may be a good idea, as I assume most of the folks that build cheaters have good intentions, and may be positively influenced by the sign. As far a the "We need to make the trail easier because it's too dangerous" mentality, that is complete BS 96% of the time. You can always walk. Of course, building a super tech section in the middle of an easy trail is also pretty poor trail design. Gotta look at the trail as a whole.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Who decides what trails are left alone? Is it by some sort of magic that all trail users will just know this and understand it because they are on the trail?


Simple. If they didn't build it, they shouldn't mess with/alter it. And regarding my comment regarding that GATOS sign.....it's sad that that stuff has to spelled out for people. Where I ride regularly there's hardly any to zero signage where trails enter the woods or at junctions. Old school. Creating new trail is ongoing. Building for ourselves. Scratch em in quick and leave the duff. Seeing and reading about all this tampering, neutering, and spelling everything out makes me really appreciate what we have here.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Is that from the trails in question?


No, but in the same neighborhood. Lunch Loops near Grand Junction.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Where I ride regularly there's hardly any to zero signage where trails enter the woods or at junctions. Old school. Creating new trail is ongoing. Building for ourselves. Scratch em in quick and leave the duff. Seeing and reading about all this tampering, neutering, and spelling everything out makes me really appreciate what we have here.
> View attachment 1174378


Weren't you saying that strava-junkies were running rampant and ruining all the good trails back there? Sounds like a lot of drama to me 

If I were more ambitious I might take the time to "improve" some of the blown out trails around here but to be honest I'd rather just ride.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Weren't you saying that strava-junkies were running rampant and ruining all the good trails back there? Sounds like a lot of drama to me


Some networks here have definitely fallen prey. But I'm ambitious enough to ride a ton and build/maintain just as much as I ride. Back in the day if we wanted good singletrack to ride we took it upon ourselves to build it as back then MTB trails weren't a thing. You rode moto trails, hiking trails, power lines etc etc. Building and maintaining trail is very addicting. My personal trails here don't fall prey to STRAVA destruction and the other stuff by me is a mix of other rogue trail not built by me and hiking trails where MTB's are allowed and are amazing for MTB.



> If I were more ambitious I might take the time to "improve" some of the blown out trails around here but to be honest I'd rather just ride.


You are not alone. I couldn't imagine being a MTB'r and not partaking in some sort of personal or organized trail mantenance to help give back to the trails that I ride. But to each their own.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

HacksawReynolds said:


> You are not alone. I couldn't imagine being a MTB'r and not partaking in some sort of personal or organized trail mantenance to help give back to the trails that I ride. But to each their own.


I don't want to get accosted for sanitizing trails, best to play it safe I figure.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

I can't believe this thread is still going and switchblade is still replying. :skep:ut:


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

HacksawReynolds said:


> IMO it is morally and ethically wrong to change or even want to change a trail to keep a certain skillset of riders from having to dismount and walk a difficult section of a trail that SOMEONE ELSE took the time to build whether a sanctioned trail or not. There are plenty of trails out there to suit ones needs where they won't have to get off and walk. Challenging trails should be kept challenging. A b-line around a challenging section is nothing more than a trail braid, and trail braids are bad for the environment, unsightly, and can add confusion IMO. #keepsingletracksingle
> 
> Signed/ a 25+ year trail builder and counting.....


I got an email from someone who stated a large suguaro cactus had fallen down across a trail that is being used for an upcoming race. He asked me to contact someone to have it removed. I told him he was morally and ethically wrong for even thinking about having that 1000 pound cactus removed.

He told me that riders have already created a ride-around. I told him that ride-around is bad for the environment, unsightly, and can add confusion. Those riders are just as morally and ethically wrong as he is for thinking the cactus should be removed from the trail. Perhaps those riders need to improve their skillset and learn to jump over fallen trees or cactus.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

dustedone said:


> It's an FU sticker on top of the carsonite.
> 
> It amazes me that people are excusing trail sanitization because detailed signs forbidding altering the trail aren't posted at trailheads.


it is equally amazing what people are calling trail sanitation. Removing fallen trees? Removing loose rocks? Building drains? Cleaning debris out of drains? Cutting brush along the edge of the trails? Cutting brush to create better site lines? Knocking down curbs to prevent cupping that holds water in center of trail tread?

What uninformed riders call sanitizing, trail builders call routine maintenance.


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> That is fine, voice your concerns with the Land Managers who have the authority to do something about it.
> 
> From what I have read here it sounds like that particular trail could benefit form signage at each entrance noting the extreme level of skill required and a note about not altering the trail in anyway.
> 
> ...


I have ridden this area and enjoyed the trails.



> All features are optional and to the side of the main trail route


That is some very forward thinking trail design. Allow everyone to ride the trail and allow risk takers to challenge themselves. No choice is morally or ethically wrong. The risk takers lives are not ruined by the site of an easy option they do not have to ride. All riders have a choice to make and the risks they take are their responsibility. I'm fairly certain a lawyer approved of this sign. The intent is to prevent litigation or to shield the land managers in the event of a lawsuit resulting from injury.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Boris Badenov said:


> I got an email from someone who stated a large suguaro cactus had fallen down across a trail that is being used for an upcoming race. He asked me to contact someone to have it removed. I told him he was morally and ethically wrong for even thinking about having that 1000 pound cactus removed.
> 
> He told me that riders have already created a ride-around. I told him that ride-around is bad for the environment, unsightly, and can add confusion. Those riders are just as morally and ethically wrong as he is for thinking the cactus should be removed from the trail. Perhaps those riders need to improve their skillset and learn to jump over fallen trees or cactus.


Couldn't resist steering things toward the ridiculous again? And you were doing so good.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Boris Badenov said:


> I got an email from someone who stated a large suguaro cactus had fallen down across a trail that is being used for an upcoming race. He asked me to contact someone to have it removed. I told him he was morally and ethically wrong for even thinking about having that 1000 pound cactus removed.
> 
> He told me that riders have already created a ride-around. I told him that ride-around is bad for the environment, unsightly, and can add confusion. Those riders are just as morally and ethically wrong as he is for thinking the cactus should be removed from the trail. Perhaps those riders need to improve their skillset and learn to jump over fallen trees or cactus.


Here I was thinking you were beginning to learn how to accept other perspectives and you go and display your true colors again... can't teach an old dog new tricks ( or how to manual)


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Boris Badenov said:


> I got an email from someone who stated a large suguaro cactus had fallen down across a trail that is being used for an upcoming race. He asked me to contact someone to have it removed. I told him he was morally and ethically wrong for even thinking about having that 1000 pound cactus removed.
> 
> He told me that riders have already created a ride-around. I told him that ride-around is bad for the environment, unsightly, and can add confusion. Those riders are just as morally and ethically wrong as he is for thinking the cactus should be removed from the trail. Perhaps those riders need to improve their skillset and learn to jump over fallen trees or cactus.


Nice try. A felled tree or in this case, cactus does not apply to my statement. The riders that created the ride around are way in the wrong. Removing the cactus isn't altering the trail. It's putting the trail back the way it was.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> slap in Sedona the USFS uses a dollar amount of approximately $5 a lineal foot when doing a new trail build. They have a lot of overhead to pay for: salaries. benefits, new trucks, walking in and out to the work site, tools and workers compensation. In Moab they build for 26 cents a foot, but they have a very efficient operation. I have built trails for them for FREE so they are happy when they can get volunteers for FREE and use funding for other projects.


Interesting, but how did you reach the figure you mentioned of ~$7500 of your time?
Through a calculation of hours, or are you also figuring per linear foot?

Is there any sort of general 'standard' hourly charge for trailbuilding? 
I'd be interested in giving our local parks and rec committees some sort of number with regard to work we've done; they like to put that sort of stuff in their reports.

$5 a foot is incredible. Guess that's what happens when the government gets involved in something. :eekster:


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Nice try. A felled tree or in this case, cactus does not apply to my statement. The riders that created the ride around are way in the wrong. Removing the cactus isn't altering the trail. It's putting the trail back the way it was.


don't feed the trolls.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

How much rep do I need to spread before I can neg switch again? I'm sad, he's received so much negative rep it's bumped me off the bottom of his screen shots. Some forums do a temp ban when you receive a certain number, can we do that here?


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

i have managed to somehow waddle through two pages of this lugubrious thread. 

MTBR doesn't get any better (or worse) than this...


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

Switchblade2 said:


> I just saw I have new rep so I have done a screen shot to share with the viewers.


Lather, rinse, repeat.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

Boris Badenov said:


> it is equally amazing what people are calling trail sanitation. Removing fallen trees? Removing loose rocks? Building drains? Cleaning debris out of drains? Cutting brush along the edge of the trails? Cutting brush to create better site lines? Knocking down curbs to prevent cupping that holds water in center of trail tread?


A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

The routine trail maintenance that you describe is not sanitizing nor is it what is happening on Moore Fun.

Why do you continue to lie?



Boris Badenov said:


> I discovered more evidence or lesser riders having fun, according to rippling. Bleeding, breaking your collar bone, going to urgent care, it's a hoot.
> 
> View attachment 1172519


Why lie about a rider who is having a hoot and not bleeding, breaking his collarbone, or going to urgent care?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

This video is a good example of the prevailing style of trailbuilding in my area these days (more or less). Nothing crazy technical, mainly intermediate level , but the techier lines are generally in the main flow of the trail with B-lines incorporated to the side. All sorts of fun! :thumbsup:


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Streetdoctor said:


> Some forums do a temp ban when you receive a certain number, can we do that here?


Just because you do not like him or his point of view does not mean he deserves to be banned. Use the report function to report a post that you feel is violating the posting guidelines of the site, and then a Mod will take a look. If you are not familiar with the posting guidelines, please follow the link in my Sig.


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## GeePhroh (Jan 13, 2004)

This thread is a Christmas fruitcake -- nobody really likes it and it stays around forever.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

GeePhroh said:


> This thread is a Christmas fruitcake -- nobody really likes it and it stays around forever.


You are welcome to stop posting in it. That goes for anyone else who wants to take this thread off topic.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> slap if you have ever ridden in Downieville, CA you know they ask mountain bikes to contribute $5 a lineal foot to build trail there. The USFS is asking for $600,000 to add 27 new miles of system trails to the Sedona trail system. Seven miles is already built by the mountain bike community over five years ago. So that leaves 20 miles of new trail. Rockman say $235,000 is being used to build a pit toilet and parking area. That leaves $365,000 for 20 miles of trail that is going to be built by volunteer crews, ACE and the USFS.


Interesting, but how did you reach the figure you mentioned of ~$7500 of your time?
Through a calculation of hours, or are you also figuring per linear foot?


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## GeePhroh (Jan 13, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> You are welcome to stop posting in it.


Point taken -- I certainly wouldn't want to detract from the productive discussion.



Klurejr said:


> That goes for anyone else who wants to take this thread off topic.


There hasn't been an actual topic in this interwebz pissing match for about 500 posts.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

GeePhroh said:


> There hasn't been an actual topic in this interwebz pissing match for about 500 posts.


I read the entire thread and deleted some posts that were blatant personal attacks, etc. but I am not going to take the time to go through and prune out all the pissing matches. I am asking for it to just stop now or else I will just close the thread down. I am a volunteer and just do not have the time to prune a thread like this.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> This video is a good example of the prevailing style of trailbuilding in my area these days (more or less). Nothing crazy technical, mainly intermediate level , but the techier lines are generally in the main flow of the trail with B-lines incorporated to the side. All sorts of fun! :thumbsup:


Sweetness!!!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Switchblade2 said:


> I don't believe any other volunteer trail builder does a video of their work each day and sends it to the FS.


The land managers around here have a pretty high level of trust as far as MTB trail builds go based on years of working together; there's no call for wasting time on that sort of micro-management. We also don't have to deal with any federal agencies, which sound like an absolute nightmare to me; as does $8000 for a half mile of trail and needing to do a daily video shoot.

But at ~$16,000 a mile, myself and one other main builder, along with a few occasional helpers, have built about $200,000 worth of trail just in my part of town over the past 8-10 years. That doesn't include trail maintenance or hundreds of hours of pumptrack work, or lending a hand at other places. Personally, I'm very happy that neither money nor bureaucratic oversight are part of our day to day. You guys can keep that out west; it would suck a lot of the fun out of building for me personally.


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## dustedone (Oct 4, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> The land managers around here have a pretty high level of trust as far as MTB trail builds go based on years of working together; there's no call for wasting time on that sort of micromanagement.


That pretty high level of trust is most likely due to not having bad actors involved. Bad actors like John Finch who have been fined and banned from forest lands for unauthorized work - despite being told repeatedly to stop.

Thankfully, narcissistic wackos are the exception rather than the rule.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

^^^It might be for the best to just close it down now. I'm pretty sure everyone has had a chance to say their piece.

If anything, this thread has taught me that we have a lot of work to do in terms of building a stronger culture within the realm of mountain biking.

I mean, if we all love the same thing and still can't get along -- how are we going to make progress and compromise with people who _hate_ us?


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

cookieMonster said:


> I mean, if we all love the same thing and still can't get along -- how are we going to make progress and compromise with people who _hate_ us?


We may all love the same thing, but we do and always will disagree on so many aspects of the thing we love. So we bicker and *****. Such is life. Sit back and enjoy the show.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

cookieMonster said:


> ^^^It might be for the best to just close it down now. I'm pretty sure everyone has had a chance to say their piece.
> 
> If anything, this thread has taught me that we have a lot of work to do in terms of building a stronger culture within the realm of mountain biking.
> 
> I mean, if we all love the same thing and still can't get along -- how are we going to make progress and compromise with people who _hate_ us?


Mountain bikers are generally a rational bunch. That is until someone moves a rock on our favorite trail and then we lose our minds.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

In an attempt at a high note, there definitely are trails that have stood the test of time as burly test-pieces, and even being very popular, have managed to be kept about as raw as it gets. 
Lynn Woods, Lynn MA, 1/2 an hour from Boston. Check it. :thumbsup:


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## Boris Badenov (May 31, 2015)

Mr. Peabody nd Sherman are going to take the way, way, back machine to 1989, and offer some perspective to those who have used this thread to declare which side they are on.

First, a quick analogy. As a former prison guard, I can tell you that all prisoners do not get long like in Shawshank Redemption. But you knew that. Blacks, whites and chicanos, all hate each other. It has been like that forever in prison. But at some point, there were additional divisions. Black crips hated black bloods. White SWP's (supreme ***********) hated whites who claimed some other gang affiliation. Northern chicanos (XIV) hated southern chicanos (XIII), or nortenos vs. surenos. Within minutes of arriving on a unit, someone would ask what you claim, and then a fight broke out. 

Well, back in 1989, what was going on in the sport of mountain biking? mostly, it was skinny guys riding their full rigid steel bikes up and down mountains on hiking trails that were now open to bikes. Then we got front shocks and were able to ride further and faster over more challenging terrain. 

The bike magazines showed pictures of bikes being ridden up a mountain in some beautiful location. The articles were about great trails in places we hoped to visit. 

Then what? Well, racing happened. It was popular, at first, but a cross country race was difficult to film and televise. A dual slalom was easy to film and popular to watch. Guys like Earthquake Jake could do amazing jumps and rip downhill. I'd drive to Mammoth to watch the Kamikaze downhill with John Tomac, who also rode the XC race. 

X-games came along and people wanted to see motorcycle type jumps with big air. Bike magazines only showed pictures of bikes in mid-air, just like a lot of avatars on MTBR. Look at the videos people here post, They are of riders going downhill fast and doing jumps. They include special skills, special protective gear, and they even have their own language to describe the moves. 

Someone posted an amazing video a day ago showing two riders going down a course in Canada. They were the most skilled riders I've seen. It was fun to watch. But what had to happen to create that course? A simple trail that goes up or down the mountain was modified, by adding truckload after truckload of soil to build huge jumps. Lumber was hauled onto the mountain, along with saws and screws and other tools, to build additional challenges. 

What was once a sport about riding up a mountain and riding back down, has become a sport that has divided riders into many different camps. If you are super fit and have great cardio. you might be a racer, who can enter 40 miles races and ride at 190 heart rate the entire time. Maybe you came from a skateboard background or a snowboard background and you seek thrills. You might want a chairlift to take you up the mountain so you can fly down it, speeding into high-beamed corners and launching off man-made jumps. 

You can be 50 pounds overweight and find a way to ride down mountains without losing weight or having great cardio. There are bikes that are made for every type of discipline. 

But with all those different styles, comes different mindsets. The thrill seekers here have no patience for what they have decided is trail sanitizing. They believe all riders should become more like them, or at the very least, walk their bikes over their challenges that are often seen by XC riders as abominations, where riders destroyed the natural landscape and dug up ton after ton of soil to build totally natural mounds to form jumps out of. Turns that are additional piles of soil built into high-banked berms. To many XC riders, this is like going to the circus and watching skill performers doing high-risk stunts. It's not mountain biking. It's an addiction to speed and danger. When did that become an important part of mountain biking? Why? Was biking up a mountain so boring and distasteful, people just gave it up, got heavy, and decided they wanted a lift to the top of a mountain so they could race downhill over obstacles they constructed in the woods?

This is very much like how people looked at each other in prison. They went out of there way to hate someone else who wasn't in their gang. They declared them their sworn enemy and tried to destroy them. I don't see much compromise here. The thrill seekers won't entertain the idea of a b-line for non thrill seekers, even if that b-line is barely visible and has no effect on their ride. 

I got home after dark tonight, after 3 1/2 hours of trail work, cutting brush and kicking rocks off the trail being use for an upcoming race. I needed to use rubbing alcohol to clean all the cuts on my arms from the desert plants. I saw motorcycle tracks and off-road ATV tracks that damaged the trail and left loose rocks all over. Horse turned sections to powder. Lots of fresh manure. It's a beautiful trail. But some people are ignoring the signs about non-motorized vehicles, and after years without maintenance, the brush made it unpleasant and riders avoided the trail. That should change. But at least one rider will think to himself that the trail is now sanitized. The loose rocks are gone. He doesn't get cut to pieces from catcall and other thorny plants. There are no blind corners and he can now ride faster and safer, and he preferred it the way it was. 

This thread shows how riders have divided into various groups, with various preferences. They are willing to at least defend their preferences on the internet by making it clear how they feel, and how much they hate people who alter a trail in ways they do not approve of. I would compromise and leave their lines alone, but want a line that allows me to ride down the trail. I never thought they would all refuse to accept that as a way to accommodate all riders. But it seems that some people have dug in their heels in this regard.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> It's not mountain biking. It's an addiction to speed and danger. When did that become an important part of mountain biking?


Well...it's kinda always been there...


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Boris Badenov said:


> I got home after dark tonight, after 3 1/2 hours of trail work, cutting brush and kicking rocks off the trail being use for an upcoming race. I needed to use rubbing alcohol to clean all the cuts on my arms from the desert plants. I saw motorcycle tracks and off-road ATV tracks that damaged the trail and left loose rocks all over. Horse turned sections to powder. Lots of fresh manure. It's a beautiful trail. But some people are ignoring the signs about non-motorized vehicles, and after years without maintenance, the brush made it unpleasant and riders avoided the trail. That should change. But at least one rider will think to himself that the trail is now sanitized. The loose rocks are gone. He doesn't get cut to pieces from catcall and other thorny plants. There are no blind corners and he can now ride faster and safer, and he preferred it the way it was.


Boris,
I appreciate your input and really think you are a stand-up individual and an avid trail builder and maintainer.

However, what you are describing above is different from what the OP was trying to get across about the Moore Fun trail.

I watched the video he made, the things he was mostly complaining about were users changing the lines of an existing trail to make it easier for them to ride, what you are describing above is very different.

One is dumbing down a trail, the other is restoring a trail to better conditions. To some it may seem like the same thing, but they are different. If the BLM approved a trail with certain rock features in a specific arrangement along with tight switchbacks, etc, then it should be the BLM who makes the decision to change any of those lines, not any rogue individual with their own agenda.

I do think it is time to let this thread retire.


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