# Is NAHBS retarded?



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Looking at the award winners from the show, I couldn't help but think so. Only one bike in the group looks to have been made with any real heart (Naked). I know that some pretty impressive bikes are shown each year. This is a pretty sad lot.

http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/nahbs-award-winners/

Nothing against the individual builders, but there is really only one bike in the group that deserves special recognition. It's a shame that some people insist on keeping custom bikes such a freak show.


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## 4130wraith (Aug 20, 2008)

I assume your not getting the proper detail from the photo's. When the country's best have a show of their artwork I'm sure they all can't be as bad as you think. Being so opinionated about ALL of the winners it seems your view must be bias for some reason. Do you have any works you feel would have won if you were invited. Please show and tell


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Interesting question*

I doubt anyone who attended would say that it sucks (though of course this statement screams "selection bias"). And I'm probably the wrong person to ask, since I avoid bike shows like the plague (hate traveling, hate crowds, don't really want to spend a nice weekend talking about bikes instead of riding them).

Shows and awards are an interesting problem with bikes - they want to make headlines and draw attention, but if they only give awards to crazy/weird stuff, they risk making the entire weekend into a freakshow rather than a bike show.

Yes, the Naked bike is the most "innovative" one there in terms of appearance - but it's pretty much a standard single pivot suspension setup that's been gussied up with chrome and _wood_ (not sure I see the point of a wooden seatpost, except to get attention). Not sure you want to continue too much farther down that road - I'd rather ride most any of the other bikes given awards, personally, because I'm not the type to spend much time looking at my bike while I'm riding it, and I don't trust wooden parts all that much.

Personally, I think that they should *only* give awards to bikes that have been ridden at least a little, and preferably quite a bit - the IF carbon bike that was glued together the week before the show (and may very well never have been ridden) is truly a dumb choice, but I'm guessing not many carbon folks show up, and they can't give Crumpton the award every year.

So no, I don't think NAHBS is retarded. I do think giving out awards is a process fraught with problems, but it draws attention, which is the point of the show. So it's something that they will probably continue doing.

As for me, I'll be out riding.

-Walt



pvd said:


> Looking at the award winners from the show, I couldn't help but think so. Only one bike in the group looks to have been made with any real heart (Naked). I know that some pretty impressive bikes are shown each year. This is a pretty sad lot.
> 
> http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/nahbs-award-winners/
> 
> Nothing against the individual builders, but there is really only one bike in the group that deserves special recognition. It's a shame that some people insist on keeping custom bikes such a freak show.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

I have to both agree and disagree with you on this somewhat.
Having been to Interbike quite a bit in my former life, it's really unfair to compare the two (which I have a tendency to do).
I look at some of the coverage of NAHBS and say to myself "How many overpriced single speed townies does the world need?"
But then I'll watch some show about a kid who spend thounsands and thousands on a Honda Civic at a car show or some of the obscene motorcycles on these reality shows and realize what NAHBS really is. It's not a consumer show to persuade guys like us to say "Wow, I should buy one", it's a show that let's the builders go wild and push they're capabilities. It allows them to show off, like a car show.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

NAHMBS is one of the biggest inspirations to me in getting me to attempt my first frame. Seeing what folks do that is "out of the norm" is inspiring to me an. Yeah, that Naked bike is goofy and totally cool at the same time. It gave me a couple of ideas that I want to discuss later in my progression as a hobby builder that will be very practical but very different at the same time--probably all still done before though. That said, I can see where you're coming from too, Pete. I think that NAHMBS is great for the industry though. It seems to be growing and becoming more outlandish each year and that has to be good for all custom and hobby builders I'd think--not just the winners or the guys that attend the show. It may become so stupid at some point that folks are no longer interested in custom bikes but I certainly hope not.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Walt said:


> I doubt anyone who attended would say that it sucks (though of course this statement screams "selection bias"). And I'm probably the wrong person to ask, since I avoid bike shows like the plague (hate traveling, hate crowds, don't really want to spend a nice weekend talking about bikes instead of riding them).
> 
> Shows and awards are an interesting problem with bikes - they want to make headlines and draw attention, but if they only give awards to crazy/weird stuff, they risk making the entire weekend into a freakshow rather than a bike show.
> 
> ...


It was a URT.

As a piece of art, it was interesting. As a MTB, it was ridiculous. IMHO of course.


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

you're right! looking at those pictures there's nothing to care about... cause none of those pics show the intricate details of each frame.  

surprised someone as adept at copying other's designs as yourself doesn't realize that looking at wee pics online doesn't convey the true details a master craftsman can create.

to answer the question, I know nothing of NAHBS as an organization, never met anyone there or had the opportunity to observe their online rants, so I couldn't comment on their mental state (or lack thereof), but I wish the I could've attended for no other reason than to be able to take a REAL look at the pieces on display... then I wouldn't be sitting online complaining about them.
Then again I'm not complaining about them. (first statement was obviously sarcastic in nature)
Spending too much time working on improving my skills and designs to be an armchair critic....


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Is it just the bikes, or do they have tooling, fixture, etc. vendors there too?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

byknuts said:


> surprised someone as adept at copying other's designs as yourself doesn't realize that looking at wee pics online doesn't convey the true details a master craftsman can create.


Nice! You have such a full command of where the bicycle industry has been over the last 130 years. Nothings new. Everything is a copy. We mix, we match, and we use better materials. I can copy from Sharp's book or from Santa Cruz and it makes little difference.

I'm pretty well versed in looking at details (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pvdwiki/sets/72157603890491468/), but, for example, giving an award to a carbon bike that was slapped together just before a show, has never been ridden, tested, or proven in any way is just a complete joke.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

toddre said:


> Is it just the bikes, or do they have tooling, fixture, etc. vendors there too?


Vendors too - tube suppliers, lug suppliers, component suppliers, head tube badge suppliers, clothing etc. etc.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

toddre said:


> Is it just the bikes, or do they have tooling, fixture, etc. vendors there too?


they had tooling and frame parts suppliers there.

There is some controversy over the awards among the people that display at the show. The organizer says that the awards are a big part of the attention that the show gets, and he's not interested in getting rid of them as a result. I don't mind seeing outrageous bicycles. On the other hand, seeing a merely competently built road frame like the Della Santa win an award is interesting. I saw the pictures of those earlier in the show and was underwhelmed.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

pvd said:


> ... Nothings new. Everything is a copy. ..


Completely wrong, and just an excuse for theft. Pete, I'm really not trying to get personal, but your work incorporates the latest available developments, it doesn't innovate. If you had come up with something new, you may have a different perspective on things.

Just because you haven't done it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Take Walt's sweet brake rotor brace... Oops!


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> Completely wrong, and just an excuse for theft. Pete, I'm really not trying to get personal, but your work incorporates the latest available developments, it doesn't innovate. If you had come up with something new, you may have a different perspective on things.
> 
> Just because you haven't done it doesn't mean it can't be done.
> 
> Take Walt's sweet brake rotor brace... Oops!


Isn't imitation is the sincerest form of flatery? LOL


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> Pete, I'm really not trying to get personal, but your work incorporates the latest available developments, it doesn't innovate. If you had come up with something new, you may have a different perspective on things.


Are you [email protected] kidding me?






















































































































Nothing is new.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Glad you like 'em!*

My favorite thing about the rotor bracing is not that they look neat (in fact, at this point, I'm pretty indifferent to the look, though a lot of folks seem to like 'em). What I like most is that they're way easy to do - much less mitering and fiddling time involved. And the weight/function seems to be about the same.

I'd probably use 1/8" plate of some kind if I didn't have a zillion old warped rotors laying around, just for the ease of the process comparing to using a little piece of tubing.

I thought when I first did them that I was doing something exciting and new, but I quickly found out that many other folks (including you, right Steve? I'm pretty sure I've seen some sweet looking ones you've done) had done it before. So original to me, but not so original to the rest of the world. I'd view old rotor bits as braces as more of a decorative/economical tweak than an "innovation", though.

In my case, I didn't even think of it - a friend who wanted to build his own bike built a shock mount out of an old Avid roundragon rotor, and then suggested that we could use rotor bits for his hardtail braces too. So in my case, my pal Miguel gave me the idea. I get the impression that he came up with it on his own, too, because the whole thing started when we ran out of the right material for the shock mount and were scrounging desperately around the shop.

I'd argue that A) yes, it's very hard to come up with truly new non-suspension bike ideas that aren't just decoration and B) combining old ideas in new ways is still cool, which I think Pete is very good at doing. He and Don have a history that I'm not totally clear on, but if they weren't enemies, I'd imagine Don would love to have Pete and his stuff at the show.

This is getting pretty off topic (maybe it should be in the IRD slider thread), but Pete and Steve and others - what *would* constitute something innovative for a bike? Can you provide any good examples from recent shows (or just from the world of bikes in general?) I'm not coming up with much off the top of my head...

Good thread so far, despite (or maybe because of?) the inflammatory title.

-Walt



D.F.L. said:


> Completely wrong, and just an excuse for theft. Pete, I'm really not trying to get personal, but your work incorporates the latest available developments, it doesn't innovate. If you had come up with something new, you may have a different perspective on things.
> 
> Just because you haven't done it doesn't mean it can't be done.
> 
> Take Walt's sweet brake rotor brace... Oops!


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Walt,

With our not-so-pleasant previous interaction, I thought you would have avoided borrowing any of my ideas. If you really never saw it before using it, well, that's great. Now you know where it came from, years before, I guess it's up to you if you'll continue using it. You're not the first to borrow it. I've talked to others and even helped them to think of other things they could do that would be more distinctive. As I said to you once before, at least TRY to come up with something original.

Pete,

I don't know what's inside the skate trucks, but the rest of the stuff looks like variations of existing ideas. It's not a knock on you or your ability, but you seem to incorporate ideas rather than coming up with new ones. Did you invent lock-on grips, seatpost-mounted trailers, integrated headsets, and DU bearing presses, or are you implementing them?

Some things are new. Some things have not been done before.


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## 4130wraith (Aug 20, 2008)

Nice work! but I don't see any winners. Maybe you can grace the world with your presence next year.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Ah, I misunderstood.*

Steve -

To be honest, I don't care about original or distinctive. I just care about fit/ride/function. So yes, I will certainly continue to do things however I think works out best to accomplish those goals. That will probably include disc rotor braces, unless I come up with something or see something that I like better in the future. I'm sorry if you feel it's some kind of imposition, but I really don't care much.

As I've said before, I'd build and ride a red wagon full of pancakes if that was the best functional (and fun) way to get from point A to point B. I don't care what I look like when I'm riding, and I certainly don't care if my bike looks particularly flashy. Heck, I don't even wash it more than about once a year.

Others have different priorities. To me, decoration is not innovation.

-Walt



D.F.L. said:


> Walt,
> 
> With our not-so-pleasant previous interaction, I thought you would have avoided borrowing any of my ideas. If you really never saw it before using it, well, that's great. Now you know where it came from, years before, I guess it's up to you if you'll continue using it. You're not the first to borrow it. I've talked to others and even helped them to think of other things they could do that would be more distinctive. As I said to you once before, at least TRY to come up with something original.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> you seem to incorporate ideas rather than coming up with new ones.


I guess it's time for you to ante up and show your hand. It seems like all you are doing is proving my point. Nothing is new.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

I think people should be free to borrow and adapt but not blatantly steal. The Wright/Koski/Breeze type dropout is one of those things. To me, its basic function is to reduce steps in fabrication. The Serotta/SpeedVagen/Courage/Jericho versions accomplish the same thing but look slightly different. That's OK by me because they changed it stylistically (I don't mind a little style in a bike)

I think it's also important to recognize that it's possible for different people to have the same idea that they came up with on their own. It's possible that because something pre-dates the exact same idea that they with both conceived independently. The simpler the idea, the easier it is to understand how it can happen. I have no idea who came up with the rotor as a brace idea and I don't honestly care, but that's perfect example of simple and easy to conceive. 

I also don't think there is a whole lot of innovation to be done with standard bikes. There are countless adaptations that countless builders will use, sometimes without realizing that they're borrowing from other ideas, that make up a frame that can be fairly unique. You can think of it like music. All these little pieces preexist on some level and are arranged into something unique (sometimes)


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

pvd said:


> I guess it's time for you to ante up and show your hand. It seems like all you are doing is proving my point. Nothing is new.


Be patient Grasshopper! The problem with pissing contests is that everybody gets piss all over them.

And I've done nothing to make your point; I said you showed nothing new, not that new was impossible. If you were claiming that your ideas ARE new, then you're making MY point. See, we could go 'round and 'round.

Walt and others liked my silly little brake rotor enough to take it. It's probably the least useful thing I put on my frames but it's novel, it works, and requires less labor than a tube. I came up with it years ago and it was an evolution of the shaped flat plate I'd been using. To have Walt take it was surprising, and not surprising at the same time, given our history.

I just don't understand that mindset.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

NAHBS isn't retarded but it does have some unusual eccentricities. Every one of the winners was worthy in my mind, maybe not my personal first pick, but worthy. What the pictures never show is the out & out craftsmanship and skill & difficulty required to pull off some of those bikes correctly.

Very little in the bike world is not derivative of something else. Out right copying of someone's signature is lame, but as I said before, it's all in the Data Book from 50 years ago. It's just evolution. People openly talk about copying my shite all the time, it bugs me, but I'm powerless to do anything about it and even if I could, I wouldn't, unless they start selling them.

My personal sore point with NAHBS is MTB's being shown that are obviously not designed to be ridden & abused as a MTB should be. That's just not true to their purpose.


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

Oh yes! This is getting good........
NAHBS and things like it (retarded or not) where bike stuff is showcased and bike folks are worshiped is cool..........I like bikes.
As far as things being new and innovative........PVD and others do not seem to be unwilling to share, which has in the past been what makes this little "mtbr-club" so helpful and inspiring.......we all seem to learn and share. Sometimes a thick skin is good to have.
As far a I am concerned, if I find that I have inadvertently done something that someone else claims to have pioneered or been the first to do.......I usually try to credit that person and move on to something else, just out of creative respect........like the brake rotor gusset, and even the head tube frame (which I chose not to do out of respect when I found out it had been done)........I guess what I'm trying to say is, if I know somebody is making a living doing something special....I certainly am not one to move in on that idea just because I can.....but that's just me. Creativity in all things bike is what atracts me to build...........now I'll go back to the shop and work on that 36" pancake wagon. Peace ya'll......... :thumbsup:


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

"headtube frame"? 
you mean the breezer semi-integrated bearing cups that PVD makes for himself?

circa '98, had one myself, URT's in their infancy but castellano had it right even then... looking forward to the checking out the zorro! :thumbsup:


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> Be patient Grasshopper!


In other words you really have nothing that you have produced that is of any real value other than this silly little accent detail that is not very original. I've seen sprockets used as details on frames for a very long time. Cutting rotors and sprockets for decoration has been done for decades.

This is from Sandy Kosman's shop. I'm sure he's been doing this stuff for the past 40 years.










This is an x-mass orniment that I made for my girlfriend. The first time that I saw one of these was in 1989 at Fat City.










I think that you should really try to get over yourself. You are not original. Sorry to break it to you.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

byknuts said:


> ...circa '98...


Great! It's funny. I was over to Joe Breeze's house a few weeks ago to talk about my designs. He seemed pretty stoked on them. We were laughing about how everything new is old. He even brought me back a few IS tubes that an asian supplier uses.

He even told me who he 'copied' when he made his breezer dropouts.

Nothing is new. Get over it.


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## CdaleTony (Jun 21, 2005)

toddre said:


> Is it just the bikes, or do they have tooling, fixture, etc. vendors there too?


Heres a couple shots..


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

smudge said:


> I think people should be free to borrow and adapt but not blatantly steal.


there are incredibly strong intellectual property laws in this country. If someone doesn't want something "stolen," they can feel free to take advantage of this system. Otherwise, I think they can keep the whining to themselves.


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## nicolacycles (Oct 17, 2008)

I build my frames utilizing triangles. I'm so unoriginal.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

unterhausen said:


> there are incredibly strong intellectual property laws in this country. If someone doesn't want something "stolen," they can feel free to take advantage of this system. Otherwise, I think they can keep the whining to themselves.


how many builders have the financial firepower to chase down IP theft? I don't think there are too many but it's not like I can throw down stats to support that thought.

I'd like to think in most cases with small builders a little sugar goes a long way especially when it comes to a stylistic flair.

For example, I've got a bike in mind for myself that utilizes a very distinct seat tube treatment to achieve several goals I have for a 29er. I asked a builder and friend of mine if he would mind my using his adaptation and he seems to be genuinely excited about the idea. I'm going to give him the design credit until I'm blue in the face and will probably end up developing a fixture for the project which I'll donate to him as a way of thanking him and to hopefully make his life easier in the long term.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Unless your're the guy who invented disc brakes, you have no business claiming to have done *anything* original with a rotor.

-Schmitty-


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

I like pancakes.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Wow, this is a hot thread.

I very much feel like Walt most of the time. That is the show is a huge undertaking. I have exhibited once. Been three times and probably will exhibit again in the next year or two. It was very liberating to just go, not show and re-connect with everybody and see what was brought by everyone.

I think DWF and I are the only ones to personally have shown there. I too don't think it is retarded. It has its place and it can't be all things to all people. I kind of view it like a concept car show or a custom motorcycle show. That is NAHBS is a place for people to stretch their legs and show what they have in their minds eye. It can jumpstart a career and get you in front of the "people" faster than on your own.

Although I am torn by what I see. I too like functionality. I thought the awards were slightly roadie/lugged biased this year as I would have voted almost entirely differently but hey, different panel of folks, different strokes. I think the awards are justified. Almost no car show or motorcycle show doesn't have awards and I think it is reasonable.

it is also reasonable just not to play that game. Sometimes showing vunderbikes can be a negative, not a positive. If vunderbikes are not what you really do, the consumer assumes that what they saw at the show is what you do on a daily basis and for most of us that just isn't the case. I have been type cast my entire career as a super frilly luggite but in reality I don't do a lot of it. 

Also, to toot my horn a little. It's like the new guys just want to do a fancy lug, chrome , yadda, yadda but truth be told, half a dozen of us could blow most anybody out of the water at will. I just don't have 3-4 months every year to build some sort of crazy machine and as I have gotten older, I don't feel the need to do it. I do what I do and I like seeing what others do and like Don said, no matter how fancy it should do what it is supposed to do really well. 

Dave B
Bohemian Bicycles


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

CdaleTony said:


> Heres a couple shots..


Nice pics! :thumbsup:

I even dressed up my worst Kurt orphan with a new set of jaws.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

DWF said:


> Nice pics! :thumbsup:
> 
> I even dressed up my worst Kurt orphan with a new set of jaws.


A *show* Kurt? Next year I expect that you'll jump the shark and show a Super Master milled from curly maple, figured koa and ebony.

BTW, did those centering wedges on the chain and seat stay fixtures get wider in the past couple of years?


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

This is soon becoming a PinkBike drop thread...MANY of the comments are VERY amusing, please...continue!!!!


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

smudge said:


> A *show* Kurt? Next year I expect that you'll jump the shark and show a Super Master milled from curly maple, figured koa and ebony.
> 
> BTW, did those centering wedges on the chain and seat stay fixtures get wider in the past couple of years?


Nah, that particular Kurt 675 gets kicked around the shop a lot since it doesn't have a home on any particular machine. We use a lot of matched pair 688s so the 675s are reduced to filler status like using them with the ShopTap and shite like that. I do have a Deckel FP3 that is currently viseless so it may go on there.

Yes to the second part. Those particular fixtures have changed a lot over the last few years.


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## nicolacycles (Oct 17, 2008)

dbohemian said:


> It's like the new guys just want to do a fancy lug, chrome , yadda, yadda but truth be told, half a dozen of us could blow most anybody out of the water at will. I just don't have 3-4 months every year to build some sort of crazy machine and as I have gotten older, I don't feel the need to do it. I do what I do and I like seeing what others do and like Don said, no matter how fancy it should do what it is supposed to do really well.
> 
> Dave B
> Bohemian Bicycles


Holy **** did you just say that.

I know, fancy chromey **** is soooooo passe. I'm too busy to do it as well.

Get off the High horse You might hurt yourself. or worse, look like a horses arse.

You guys are ridiculous. are you sure this isn't FRAMEFORUM?

Sounds like some guys are bored of building bikes and probably should move over and stop shitting on everyone....

Un fknbelievable. It's only bikes....Smoke a Doobie!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

nicolacycles said:


> Holy **** did you just say that.
> 
> I know, fancy chromey **** is soooooo passe. I'm too busy to do it as well.
> 
> ...


Really Nicola, I didn't mean anything by it. Please don't over-react. I wasn't shitting on anyone. I thought the stuff was cool.

Dave B
Bohemian


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)




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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Hey, I credit PVD for lighting the match, but please remember that it was I who was smart enough to bring the gasoline

The psychology here is amazing, don'tcha think?

You've got passive-aggressive me who didn't want to contact Walt directly (been there, done that, with no satisfaction.) I actually seem to think that a disk rotor brace is worth protecting (you betcha!)

There's a guy who DOESN"T CARE about original or unique, but obviously CARED enough to adopt an idea and CARES enough to keep using it, knowing it ain't his.

And then the Projector. Who comes on this forum, spouting absolutes about how ideas are worthless, stupid, rediculous, and RETARDED. He doesn't seem to have much regard for the best builders in the world, but thinks that I need to get over myself. Hmmm. Ted Haggard comes to mind.

I think it's time to reclaim the word retarded; we're all retarded! Embrace it!

Keep this thread rolling!


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

If you all would have gone to the show, sampled some nice straight rye (had to substitute rye for the Stranahan's since they showed me no love), and hung out, you'd feel a lot more affection for the group. Or not. Hate is good too if that's what blows your hair back. It's all passion.

I know lots of these folks, lots of people posting on this board too; all good folk based on my experience with them in the real world. The internet brings out the weird in people.


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

D.F.L. said:


> Hey, I credit PVD for lighting the match, but please remember that it was I who was smart enough to bring the gasoline
> 
> The psychology here is amazing, don'tcha think?
> 
> ...


BWAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!

guess I shouldn't have piped up... just figured that the OP who openly brags about using other people's ideas included sifting through patents really shouldn't be slagging the NAHBS build winners for being unoriginal and not spectacular enough (in his eyes)

For the record, I don't plan on bothering with your rotor brace, now the smokeyoke chainstay bridge on the other hand... :eekster: 

I may be a helmet-wearing window-licker, but I don't ride the short bus anymore.... ah lix windows cuz they's tastee!


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> I credit PVD for lighting the match, but please remember that it was I who was smart enough to bring the gasoline


You haven't brought anything.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

byknuts said:


> just figured that the OP who openly brags about using other people's ideas included sifting through patents really shouldn't be slagging the NAHBS build winners for being unoriginal and not spectacular enough (in his eyes)


Who's sifting thought patents? Monkeyman informed me of the patent on this board. I only mentioned that as a not for profit builder I could use any idea I pleased. What's your beef?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> He doesn't seem to have much regard for the best builders in the world...


I know a lot of these people and call them my friends. I guess that I must know something you don't that let's me see what's going on. I have my own opinions that I stand behind 100%. What do you belive?


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## buildyourown (Dec 1, 2004)

DWF said:


> The internet brings out the weird in people.


No doubt. I would really think PVD was an ahole if I hadn't meant him first on the mountain. 
No offense, Pete, but you come off raw on the intranets.

It's hard to get me excited about a "replica" bike that is really just a recreation of somebody else's work. I understand the level of workmanship involved, but if you painted a PERFECT replica of the Mona Lisa, would anybody give it a second look. Even if your painting skill was better than the original, the art is copied.
I am much more excited about bikes that are designed to be ridden...hard....and put away wet.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Walt said:


> Personally, I think that they should *only* give awards to bikes that have been ridden at least a little, and preferably quite a bit


That sums it up. I like to look a pretty, but I prefer to ride what works.


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## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

pvd said:


>


THANK YOU!

i wish more MTB/road companies would use true integrated headsets!
In the BMX world this is all they use, simple,works great and is strong, and now they make forks with the Race built in, less stupid unneeded parts.
hmmm, im making a note of this in my brain for future referance.........you work in Ti?


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## benja55 (Aug 10, 2005)

*What a weird thread...*

I love NAHBS. Love attending as a rider and as a former framebuilder, but mostly as a bike geek. I ride MTB mostly but a good deal of road too... But I like looking at well made frames whatever the flavor. I mostly just dig people putting care, thought, heart and soul into making something, even if its something as tiresome as an over designed and priced hipster fixie. Bikes are cool.

The awards... yeah, whatever, seems like they have to give them to somebody. Not my picks, but not really justification for dumping on the whole show.

Its a bike show filled with people who really, really dig making bikes. Whats not to like?!
:thumbsup:


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## gsomtb (Jul 18, 2007)

I'm no frame builder but I'm fairly tight with the head judge......just received an email from him w/ pics from the show tonight.
Can I relay any messages to him?


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

pvd said:


> Who's sifting thought patents? Monkeyman informed me of the patent on this board. I only mentioned that as a not for profit builder I could use any idea I pleased. What's your beef?


I do believe that sifting through patents is part of the development process .i think its due diligence .why design something that may infringe on someone elses idea or marketing BS
and having said that in the engineering world there are only so many good ways of actually doing something properly ...you find you might tread on a few toes

however sifting through patents also brings up prior art a process im having to go through at the minute for a new tubeless rim strip how you can patent a rubber strip still baffles me?


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Here is the link. Probably the best photo set I have seen. Worth a look or a bookmark.

http://cyclesdeoro.com/events/NAHBS/2009/index.html

Judging is just that. Just an opinion based on your experience, likes/dislikes and views. Whether some would have voted differently, I think most everyone can agree that every frame/bike given an award deserved it. They were all really well done.

All the best,

Dave B
Bohemian


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

benja55 said:


> Not my picks, but not really justification for dumping on the whole show.


I wasn't dumping on the whole show. It's a good show. It could be much better, but it is good.

I was dumping on the quality of the judging that produced such a weak selection of 'best' bikes. I know that there are some incredible bikes shown each year. Bikes that are well designed, ascetically gorgeous, and honestly ridable as well.

This is what I'd like to ask of the contestants?

Is the bike intended as a state of the art machine, a historical recreation, or simply art?
Will the bike be raced, ridden, or just displayed?
Is this a proved design, a prototype, or a proof of concept?
Who is the intended rider and what are their dimensions, skill, and weight.
What was the bike geometry?
Where's the print?
Did the bike meet the print and to what tolerance?
Was this confirmed?
Tube diameter and wall thickness?
Did the builder build just the frame or did they make the rear end, fork, stem, bars, and post as well?
Type of carbon or layup technique?
Silver or brass?
Who painted the bike?
What type of paint was used?
Any detailed pictures of the frame before going to paint?
Who did the plating?
How much did the frame weight?
How about the whole bike?
Are any issues with the control cable configuration?
If the bike was an 'on-road' fixie, disc or hub brake, was the rear wheel laced correctly?
Were the rider controls properly placed?
How much of the bike componentry was off the shelf versus custom produced?
Did all of the construction details and parts spec meet the intended purpose of the bike?

I've been to 3 NAHMB Shows. I can't recall ever seeing a builder with even a print of their bike to go with it. I think that things need to get a little more serious to prevent another judging catastrophe.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> Here is the link. Probably the best photo set I have seen. Worth a look or a bookmark.
> 
> http://cyclesdeoro.com/events/NAHBS/2009/index.html
> 
> ...


+ ∞


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

pvd said:


> I've been to 3 NAHMB Shows. I can't recall ever seeing a builder with even a print of their bike to go with it. I think that things need to get a little more serious to prevent another judging catastrophe.


Seems a little weird to me PVD. The awards are just in good fun. I don't think people need to take it that seriously. No other discipline that I know of has a requirement list like that.

Also, lets keep this in perspective. The show is about friends getting together, like minded individuals and I keep saying this.....Selling bikes so that we can make a living.

I would say that at least 90% of my customers don't know and don't care about most of these things and that things like this could really confuse people. You may understand, but most would not. Also, some of this is just not important-really. Silver vs. bronze? depends on the application. Short of it is, great bikes can be made either way so that is not an indication of quality. Tolerances. Lay persons are always going to think higher tolerance is better even if they don't understand the implications of that.

A lot of these other questions I don't need to be told. I know whether the builder made the stem or not or used custom parts or if the paint is applied well. Judges should/probably already know these things.

I just don't think we should take the fun out of it all-together is all.

Dave B
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Hey guys,

As I've been sorting out the hurricaine that hit my shop in the weeks leading up to the show, I've not had a lot of time to cruise the forums for my own enjoyment, but felt this thread needs some imput.

As a multi year exhibitor, I attend for many reasons;

- an opportunity to meet potential customers and share my ability to bring their desires, wants, needs, vision to fruition with a style that fun/functional/elegant

- to network with my suppliers of components or building accessories and give input for current and future needs

- to see all my fellow builders and socialize with folks that I normally only get to speak with on the phone or internet

- to be inspired and challenged by others designs and level of craftsmanship

- to keep the Groovy name out there...the show is the only marketing I do and is valuable for the face time with folks and media

If not for these reasons, I'd not attend, as an exhibitor or spectator.

Notice that awards were not a factor. Here's a short snippet I posted on my blog...

... Again, disappointment with the "awards" ceremony portion of NAHBS. I feel that the work you bring should be representative of the typical stuff coming from your shop, not items that are pet projects for the year fabricated just to draw attention. To affirm that motivation by choosing to bestow an award upon it propagates a false sense of direction for the industry. Tis a shame.

I truly believe that examples of your work brought to the show should be representative of your typical work. Each product I brought to the show was a customer bike right out of the queue, the same quality and attention to detail that each prospective customer can expect. Were any of them innovative or set to change the direction of the industry...of course not, but that is not what the majority of clients desire.

Do the awards have a place? I believe they do. Will I ever chase an award or expect one...Nope. There are politics in every industry and the awards this year reflect that. It is what it is. 

All I know is that the customers who picked up their bikes at the show felt like each of them was a WINNER, and that is my award.

Love ya all,

rody


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## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

I'm with Todd on this one.

NAHMBS is *just* like a car show. I've been to the Adirondack Nationals in Lake George a bunch of times. There are about a 1000 cars pulled in on trailers...the "show" cars. There are about 10,000 hot rods cruising main street, driven there by their owners.

These bikes you see are the "show" bikes. Every now and then a "show" bike (car) is ridden (driven) before hand...reference RS crosser with mud.

B


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Rody said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> As I've been sorting out the hurricaine that hit my shop in the weeks leading up to the show, I've not had a lot of time to cruise the forums for my own enjoyment, but felt this thread needs some imput.
> 
> ...


Yo Rody - I came by to meet you twice but you were always busy - that's a good thing, eh? I agree whole heartedly with your perspective. I will say that most of the bikes that won were customer orders and "borrowed" for the show, but some were obviously built with the ~show~ in mind. It doesn't really bother me much with a lot of the specialty bikes, randos and what not, but it irritates the shite out of me to see MTBs put out there as some sort of frilly baroque wall art and not thrash worthy because the guys who build real MTBs can't compete with that. MTB's meant to be ridden always look like knives or hammers to me: their intended use is crystal clear with just a glance.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

MDEnvEngr said:


> I'm with Todd on this one.
> 
> NAHMBS is *just* like a car show. I've been to the Adirondack Nationals in Lake George a bunch of times. There are about a 1000 cars pulled in on trailers...the "show" cars. There are about 10,000 hot rods cruising main street, driven there by their owners.
> 
> ...


The thing about Richard that I think (from what I see anyways and I could be totally wrong) is the fact that he doesn't seem to do a "show" bike. His bikes all seem to be what he would normally build for anyone to ride right off the show room room floor.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

pvd said:


> You haven't brought anything.


You're fascinating. Had I claimed any superiority to you, I'd be obligated to try to show you up. I never challenged you, Peter. We disagree on whether new ideas are possible and if it's OK to steal another's work. I don't see you as an innovator, but I do like that you're trying the latest developments. Your criticism of others seems out of line and I honestly think you're projecting onto me. If 'PVD", your evil twin, is some sort of outlet and therapy, then good on ya, but it's unpleasant to experience.

Back to 'real' issues: 

I know that Sachs expressed his displeasure when people started bringing some really involved bikes to the show. The old-school guys didn't get nearly the press that these upstarts commanded, and I think that left them feeling a little underappreciated. I have no doubt that Richard could build something eye-catching, but he may be too set in his ways to want to even try. And when you're making huge jack doing relatively simple builds, why bother? (I said RELATIVELY. I'm not trying to downplay craftsmanship)


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## bigeazzy93 (Dec 13, 2005)

I can't believe I read this whole thread. After reading, I have the following to say. Original ideas can be protected as intellectual property or patented if meeting these minimum standards: is it novel? , does it fill a need of utility and is it non-obvious to those skilled in the art? I'm sorry but disk rotors or anything used as a brace or reinforcement for a chainstay/seatstay junction should be very obvious and not novel to any framebuilder.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

bigeazzy93 said:


> ... I'm sorry but disk rotors or anything used as a brace or reinforcement for a chainstay/seatstay junction should be very obvious and not novel to any framebuilder.


 We COULD apply for patent protection (a design patent would be no problem, and virtually worthless.) but few of us can afford to. And are small, primarily aesthetic elements worth protecting? No.

It would be nice if builders would respect each others work and their ideas. That's the best way for builders to develop a style and increase their following. The market probably needs fewer, more innovative builders.

It's funny what you would think to be obvious, but hasn't been done, even in something as highly developed as bicycles.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> It would be nice if builders would respect each others work and their ideas.


Nothing is new...









(not my work)


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> We COULD apply for patent protection (a design patent would be no problem, and virtually worthless.) but few of us can afford to. And are small, primarily aesthetic elements worth protecting? No.
> 
> It would be nice if builders would respect each others work and their ideas. That's the best way for builders to develop a style and increase their following. The market probably needs fewer, more innovative builders.
> 
> It's funny what you would think to be obvious, but hasn't been done, even in something as highly developed as bicycles.


are you really this possesive over your little brake rotor thing? jezus, what a waste of time. i hope it really get you worked up! Steve.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

coconinocycles said:


> are you really this possesive over your little brake rotor thing? jezus, what a waste of time. i hope it really get you worked up! Steve.


O.k. so we take ourselves too seriously sometimes. I am very guilty of it, certainly.

But I understand where DFL is coming from. I don't think there is nothing new like PVD said. I think it is super hard to come up with something new. Often it won't work as well as something old but I still think it is possible.

You know you try and separate yourself from the crowd just a little with some little touch here or there and it doesn't take but a short time before somebody has taken it as their own and I can see where somebody would get touchy about it. Now I don't want to get in the middle of the brake disk thingy, which I had to go look to understand, cause I am a roadie but we should at least admit that sometimes there is entirely too much friendly imitation going on.

I think it also brings up DFL's point that their may be too many builders who's business plan reads something like.....I am going to build bikes cause it is wicked cool and nobody has included weelewobbles yet. Heck, I did the same thing but you think "they" would do a little homework, especially with all the resources available now. Doing it for fun, keeping it a hobby and making really cool innovative stuff is where it's at.

PVD. That little motorbike is cool. I had a lot of fun on POS's like that when I was a kid


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

There is _nothing_ new in non-suspension frame design. Get over yourselves people.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

SuspectDevice said:


> There is _nothing_ new in non-suspension frame design. Get over yourselves people.


I have to disagree with you. Someone had to start somewhere. I was just watching a show about aircraft the other day. In the beginning everything was new. Most aerodynamic law was in place by the 40's but there is still plenty to discover.

I agree bicycles are darn hard to improve upon and harder still to come up with something that has not been done in more than 120 years but I see little tidbits at the shows and other places that are something that hasn't been done before. O.K. maybe not revolutionary, but evolutionary.

I personally have a heap of idea's that I don't think have been done before but most of them are inordinately expensive and won't improve things much.

For example, I am sure somebody will get on me for this. But that tandem I showed two years ago at NAHBS had a few touches that nobody, that I know of did before. Like I said, evolutionary, not revolutionary. The stoker stem was integrated into the frame and was completely adjustable. Nobody had done that before. The bottom brackets, nobody did before and they still work great. Just examples. I think there is much more. If not, why even do this thing?


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

Mechanisms are ancient, when we do something "new" we do things that are inspired by our experiences in the built environment, or inspired by organic objects we stumble upon.

To say that we as humans have "new" ideas about machines is meta-cognitively dishonest.

Refinement, Elegance and Re-Appropriation are not the same as invention.

Ultimately, anything that "performs a function" which has been performed before is _not new_, and arguments about slight aesthetic or technical differences are moot except as a way of regulating and modifying the exchange of capital.

Aesthetic or technical modifications and changes in the function of an object or device are the realm of artifice and psychological impact: Human Factors.

They are not fundamental revelations in knowledge, capability or function. Certainly not in the industry we all choose to play and work in. We are creators of artifice and regulators of interaction and feel.

There are fundamental underlying arguments to some parties complaints here, but they are more sociological and philosophical than they are about the simple mechanics of our machines.

Don't let the machine drag you down.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I love how nobody has mentioned the word _ethics._ It's like if something is not illegal, then it's okay. I bet half the framebuilders in the world would happily steal their best friends girlfriend and put forth the argument 'it's not illegal!' as justification.


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

framebuilders = shady.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> I love how nobody has mentioned the word _ethics._ It's like if something is not illegal, then it's okay. I bet half the framebuilders in the world would happily steal their best friends girlfriend and put forth the argument 'it's not illegal!' as justification.


I don't know....got any pictures of your girlfriend?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I don't, but she functions beautifully. Couldn't have build a better one myself.

Wait, does 'RealDoll' have a patent? Maybe I could....


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

DWF said:


> I don't know....got any pictures of your girlfriend?


Fascist


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

SuspectDevice said:


> Fascist


Racist!

Have we run the entire gamut of sweeping generalizations yet?


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

DWF said:


> Racist!
> 
> Have we run the entire gamut of sweeping generalizations yet?


I've got a few more, but I reserve those for people who rip off my lug-cuts.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

We're sorta getting to the discussion I always want us to have. Thanks to everyone who is putting thought into and contributing, constructively. Theft of material just isn't tolerated in writing and music, but it's A-OK with bikes.

" are you really this possesive over your little brake rotor thing? jezus, what a waste of time. i hope it really get you worked up! Steve."

Can you help further the conversation, or are you only trying to be mean? 

Steve, I see you on the boards asking customers for new ideas. I can't think of any Coconino 'signature' features, so perhaps you've never tried to develop unique features to incorporate in your work. If you had, you might feel differently about others taking that work. Correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe it's just a matter of perspective.

Also, I think I'm less worked up than you hope. What sort of person hopes another gets upset, anyway?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Clear the air?*

I emailed this to Steve (DFL) a few minutes ago. Hopefully we can get back onto some kind of more productive track - though I'm sure this thread has been entertaining for all!

As an aside, apologies for the massive thread hijack. We probably need a new NAHBS thread at this point.

************************************************

Steve, it's clear to me that A) you don't believe that I DID NOT copy the brake rotor brace idea from you, and also that B) it means a lot more to you than it does to me (since for me it's just about recycling some old rotors and saving some time).

So I propose this - I'll use old steel chainrings or cassette cogs (also in relatively abundant supply in my junk box) for that brace instead. I don't think it will take me any extra time, and I don't think there'll be a noticeable weight or function difference, so it's not a problem for me to switch.

For what it's worth, I disagree with copying, or stealing, elements of style from someone else, regardless of what industry we're talking about. In this case, however, multiple people came up with the same idea. I'm not so sure that being the first to do "flair" like this gives you any right to determine who else is worthy to do it, but I concede that it's a difficult question to answer and reasonable people could disagree.

All the best,

-Walt


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

And I replied (didn't know Walt posted his message here):

"Walt,

I appreciate your effort.

When our first encounter went poorly, I figured I would not have a similar situation with you again. When I saw the brake rotor part, which many others saw here on MTBR, I was bugged.

I'll take you at your word that you didn't see it on anything of mine. It has been shown on MTBR numerous times over the past 5-6 years and a lot of folks know it. I'm not surprised someone would bring the request to you. No, it doesn't cure cancer, but it's a small part in making sure that when a huge wind comes and blows all the decals from custom frames, mine will still be recognizable.

Now, I gotta get back and finish brazing pennies to my seatstays.

(a small attempt at humor)

Steve "

How can there be 78 replies (with pics) on one page of a thread?


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

Now back to the NAHBS - How come they don't have an award for Best Mountain Bike??

Best offroad bike? why not give out two awards for the following instead:

Best Mountain Bike

And 

Best Cyclocross Bike

That seems to make more sense to me. What do you guys think?


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

MMcG said:


> Now back to the NAHBS - How come they don't have an award for Best Mountain Bike??
> 
> Best offroad bike? why not give out two awards for the following instead:
> 
> ...


That's just what DW plans to do next year!


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> And I replied (didn't know Walt posted his message here):
> 
> "Walt,
> 
> ...


Koom-bye-yah my lord...Koom-bye-yah (OK so spell check doesn't know what I'm talking about...)


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> Now, I gotta get back and finish brazing pennies to my seatstays.
> 
> (a small attempt at humor)


That just reminded me that back at Fat City, Dave was welding nickles to the ends of handlebars (back when they were steel) and quarters to the tops of Yo! Eddy forks. What do you think should be done about all the people that have copied this?


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

pvd said:


> . What do you think should be done about all the people that have copied this?












:arf:


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> For example, I am sure somebody will get on me for this. But that tandem I showed two years ago at NAHBS had a few touches that nobody, that I know of did before.


I dunno - isn't that just a sliding version of the Humber Tandem Swing Adjustment?

See page 172:

If you want to own a copy of the book, I had a reprint produced for sale at Lulu:

http://www.lulu.com/content/5867023


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## vulture (Jan 13, 2004)

I think it would be cool for nambla to have categories for pre paint as well. Not very many frame builders paint/powder their own work (myself included) so who's work are you judging? Props to Rody for killer frames and Paint. I painted my last two personal frames myself tho,(rattle rattle rattle).


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

pvd said:


> That just reminded me that back at Fat City, Dave was welding nickles to the ends of handlebars (back when they were steel) and quarters to the tops of Yo! Eddy forks. What do you think should be done about all the people that have copied this?


Let it go already dude - just let it go.

I sure hope your real life persona is a lot more cool and laid back thn your online e-persona. Sheesh.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

dr.welby said:


> I dunno - isn't that just a sliding version of the Humber Tandem Swing Adjustment?
> 
> If you want to own a copy of the book, I had a reprint produced for sale at Lulu:
> 
> https://www.lulu.com/content/5867023


Hey, look at that....Yep, I would say that is pretty similar in concept.










Thanks for the link too, I will get a copy.

Like I said, just evolutionary. If you take each piece all by itself you may be able to find a conceptual version on another bicycle or industrial machine but it is the whole, not just the part. Did you find a version of the stoker stem?


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## gbcircle (Jun 2, 2008)

*nambla?*

Freudian slip?


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

MMcG said:


> Let it go already dude - just let it go.
> 
> I sure hope your real life persona is a lot more cool and laid back thn your online e-persona. Sheesh.


??? this *is* the internet. Not real life.

PVD double rocks. His welding is shitty (by his own admission), but his ideas, interpretations, executions and methods are exciting.

For me, far more than the custom-lug cutters or "perfect fillet" executors.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

I got about 3/4 of the way throught this thread and during this time remembered why I didnt go to the show this year or in years past , I have bikes to build and can't waste time over this stuff . Heck one year I only went to the show to pick up material I needed to finish the bikes we were building at the time .
At that very show in SanJose I saw this tandem made by Dave B








Have your pissing matches all you want , when Dave says he can destroy most other builder's he's not kidding .

I persoanlly would like to see more catagories , I mean if I were to show up with some of the bikes I make , I sorta feel the judges woulnt understand what they were inted for .

Do practical bikes even get judged well ? NO !! It seems like if you show a bike that could really be ridden then it's not worthy of being a "Show bike " 
None of the bikes I personally would have picked for winners this year were awarded anything . But most of these people have won in the past so this might be the reason .


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> Like I said, just evolutionary. If you take each piece all by itself you may be able to find a conceptual version on another bicycle or industrial machine but it is the whole, not just the part. Did you find a version of the stoker stem?


Post a pic, I'll see if I can dig it up!

But for sure, your version evolves the concept to modern materials and machining methods.

We are generally trying to solve simple mechanical problems and the possible solutions must all be variations on the same basic mechanism. Often the solution i.s not bound by the mechanical method but by the material implementation.

Consider tensioning the chain. Slack can either be taken up by moving the two sprockets apart or adding a third element to take up the slack. For the former, let's start with sliding solutions. From back to front, you can slide the axle in the dropout (standard horizontals), slide a carrier in a dropout (Paragon sliders, etc), slide/telescope in the chainstay (Jones at the back, Black Sheep in the front), slide at a chainstay yoke (Siren), slide the BB (Bohemian, above). Then there are the case where rotary motion can be approximated for sliding. Back to front - eccentric axle (ENO hub). eccentric carrier (Wolfhound, though credited to someone else?), swinger dropouts (Black Cat), swinger rear triangle (Ibis single speed), eccentric BBs, swinging BBs (Humber). But in the end, all solutions do the same thing so it should be no surprise to see independent yet identical solutions.

This kind of reminds me of a Russian system called TRIZ for problem solving, where they had identified and cataloged a basic set of problems, and a fundamental set of solutions to those problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIZ


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

pvd said:


> That just reminded me that back at Fat City, Dave was welding nickles to the ends of handlebars (back when they were steel) and quarters to the tops of Yo! Eddy forks. What do you think should be done about all the people that have copied this?


And I guarantee Fat wasn't the first to do it.

Claiming to be the first to use a rotor as a reinforcement is crazy. Even if one were the first, it's *clever* at best.

Don't forget what the "S" stands for in NAHBS. Go if you like, don't if you don't.

-Schmitty-


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Well, shucks Evil4bc, thanks for the compliment ... "destroy" is a strong word though Really I was trying to say that it's not about making the eye candy that almost guarantees and award, cause no matter how awesome, there is always somebody with skills madder than you.

Really, I just really enjoy learning new fabrication methods and working with different materials and such. I am sure many people here do. I like taking those new methods and stretching my legs once in a while and see how you can apply that to a bicycle. That is what the awards are for in my eyes. 

I perfectly respect anybody who shows what they build on a daily basis or just tries to always improve upon their existing skill-set. I also think it is fun to see what the limit is and I have no animosity either way.

I too think there should be more awards. There are just so many forms of bicycles. Maybe a utility class, electric assist class, even an alternative award, maybe for a recumbent or trike-unicycle-octacycle or whatever? Just thoughts.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> Well, shucks Evil4bc, thanks for the compliment ... "destroy" is a strong word though Really I was trying to say that it's not about making the eye candy that almost guarantees and award, cause no matter how awesome, there is always somebody with skills madder than you.
> 
> Really, I just really enjoy learning new fabrication methods and working with different materials and such. I am sure many people here do. I like taking those new methods and stretching my legs once in a while and see how you can apply that to a bicycle. That is what the awards are for in my eyes.
> 
> ...


No problem Dave , compliments given to those who deserve them :thumbsup:

YES I want to see more defined classes , I mean the only category I could compete in would be best TIG and honestly I feel that it's not fair for that award I have to compete against Erickson and his TI bikes . 
Really freestyle MTB bike against his Ti bikes really isnt fair .


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> Well, shucks Evil4bc, thanks for the compliment ... "destroy" is a strong word though Really I was trying to say that it's not about making the eye candy that almost guarantees and award, cause no matter how awesome, there is always somebody with skills madder than you.
> 
> Really, I just really enjoy learning new fabrication methods and working with different materials and such. I am sure many people here do. I like taking those new methods and stretching my legs once in a while and see how you can apply that to a bicycle. That is what the awards are for in my eyes.
> 
> ...


Or none at all so folks aren't inclined to build for the "competition."

BTW, "Tensilweld". Not better really, just different & lots cheaper. Experimenting.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

DWF said:


> Or none at all so folks aren't inclined to build for the "competition."
> 
> BTW, "Tensilweld". Not better really, just different & lots cheaper. Experimenting.


I never said I wasent intrested in builder for the show , jsut too busy.
Over the past year we have built some pretty notable bikes for larger clients such as Disney

If I'm making a bike for the show it's going to be as much my design as possible , this includes the suspension products , componets and the hadbuilt frame .

IT;s already pretty easy for me to slap some pretty parts on a handbuilt frame and call it a "show bike " if I'm going to take the time to try to win an award their will be some real time , money and thought put into what garish's thoes 2 wheels when it's completed .

Heck most of my personal bikes could compete against 60% of the stuff I saw from this year's show , and I really RIDE thoes bikes


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## vulture (Jan 13, 2004)

gbcircle said:


> Freudian slip?


not a slip, just a bad joke, hope you get it. I think it is entirely appropriate for this thread.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

vulture said:


> not a slip, just a bad joke, hope you get it. I think it is entirely appropriate for this thread.


We called it Nambla from day one. Anybody who's ever watched South Park thinks NAMBLA first when they see NAHBS.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Evil4bc said:


> I never said I wasent intrested in builder for the show , jsut too busy.
> Over the past year we have built some pretty notable bikes for larger clients such as Disney
> 
> If I'm making a bike for the show it's going to be as much my design as possible , this includes the suspension products , componets and the hadbuilt frame .
> ...


I never said you ever said you weren't interested. What was the question again?


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

DWF said:


> I never said you ever said you weren't interested. What was the question again?


Pederasty is the answer.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

dbohemian said:


> Did you find a version of the stoker stem?


I've never seen your stoker stem, but I've seen pictures of stoker stems integrated with the frame.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> We're sorta getting to the discussion I always want us to have. Thanks to everyone who is putting thought into and contributing, constructively. Theft of material just isn't tolerated in writing and music, but it's A-OK with bikes.
> 
> " are you really this possesive over your little brake rotor thing? jezus, what a waste of time. i hope it really get you worked up! Steve."
> 
> ...


 i don't ask for new ideas.........i just wanna see what component trends are developing......like if i ask "what's cool for 09'.." and someone says "black cat swinger dropouts" i'm not gonna make some or call todd asking for some. each of my frames IS a unique innovation - a custom fit. therein lies the innovation, and the "uniqueness". my heroes build "boring" bikes. RS Salsas, Rock lobster, Soulcraft, Hunter, Curtlo, Rody, all those kinda guys......i try to make each bike better for the customer. each human is unique and if i can enhance their riding experence then i have achived the ultimate innovation. that's what i strive for. people order their second, third or fourth bike from you because of fit and function, not because of something as trivial as the placement of discarded bits vs. tubing or a piece of flatstock. Walt has enough repeat and 1st time customers that he could use whatever and still be a respected builder, AND make a living at it. THAT is the real innovation - customer satisfaction and the ability to wear enough hats to pull off making a living at this crazy biz.. totally OT, how many frames HAVE you built, Steve? don't be defensive. let's hear it, and don't say it doesn't matter, or something snyde like "i'd rather build two original ones then X boring clones" full disclosure: i've built right around 180 and i have 22 currently on order, around 1/3 of which are repeat customers......so, i've built more then both cunninghams, joe breeze and many others. i like to think i've got somewhat of a handle on what i'm doing. you can "innovate" all you want, but if nobody buys them, well............ Steve.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

brant said:


> For me, far more than the custom-lug cutters or "perfect fillet" executors.


don't knock it till you've tried it.........Steve.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

coconinocycles said:


> don't knock it till you've tried it.........Steve.


I'm a little sick of seeing so many perfectly 'crafted' bikes with little or no actual 'design' or 'thinking' put into them. Like I said, how many builders even had a print to show to go along with their bikes? Close to none, i\I'm sure. How many builders noted anything about the customer or intended rider of the bike? Close to none, I'm sure.

I'd rather see a decent print and decent construction instead of flawless plumbing on it's own.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

coconinocycles said:


> ... totally OT, how many frames HAVE you built, Steve? don't be defensive. let's hear it, and don't say it doesn't matter, or something snyde like "i'd rather build two original ones then X boring clones" full disclosure: i've built right around 180 and i have 22 currently on order, around 1/3 of which are repeat customers......so, i've built more then both cunninghams, joe breeze and many others. i like to think i've got somewhat of a handle on what i'm doing. you can "innovate" all you want, but if nobody buys them, well............ Steve.


OK, Steve

I'll ask again and again and again (because you refuse to answer)

D.F.L. (that's me) wrote: "Steve,[coconino] I see you on the boards asking customers for new ideas. I can't think of any Coconino 'signature' features, so perhaps you've never tried to develop unique features to incorporate in your work. If you had, you might feel differently about others taking that work. Correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe it's just a matter of perspective.

Also, I think I'm less worked up than you hope. What sort of person hopes another gets upset, anyway?"

Steve, I didn't fail to see that you haven't honestly answered this question. I know that your pride wants you to 'win', but this isn't about winning or losing. You chimed in with a non-constructive and insulting contribution. I only ask that you bring something useful.

Again, what is it in you that's so angry?


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

The drama might be amusing to some folk but I think we've moved into the realm where nobody's interests are being served. Call my a hypocrite (I DID remove my comments from early on) but maybe this one should be shut down and personal issues could be resolved in a less public way.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

unterhausen said:


> I've never seen your stoker stem, but I've seen pictures of stoker stems integrated with the frame.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/shows/nahmbs07/?id=/photos/2007/tech/shows/nahmbs07/nahmbs076/Bohemian_tandem_adjustable_stoker_stem

I am aware that rene herse and others sometimes put a small stem welded directly to the frame. I thought this was a cool way of doing it. Easy to adjust and stout.

Dave B
Bohemian

P.S. we can pick apart each thing and certainly find an example that is approximate but it was the whole. Just like food. The ingredients are the same but combining them in different ways makes an entirely different dish.:thumbsup:


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

coconinocycles said:


> don't knock it till you've tried it.........Steve.


Well I did get offered an apprenticeship at Bob Jackson's when I was 16, and fillet brazed a whole frame for myself when I was 20, but decided I'd rather pursue other areas.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Hey Brant, Does this thread reinforce your desire to for a collaborative design effort among framebuilders? I'm imagining a room with Peter, Steve, and myself locked inside... 

I started another NAHBS thread and I hope people will post their thoughts over there without it degenerating. If it helps, I won't post anything more in that thread.

Just so folks know, I went to school for product design, where originality is stressed, and early on we were introduced to an ego-shattering thing called critique. We received objective criticism from instructors and that's pretty hard to take because we were all passionate about our work and we really wanted for it to be good. We were also required to critique our fellow students, and this meant saying things that we knew would be disappointing to our own friends. When we'd try to sugar-coat it, the instructors would insist that we get back to being objective, and that involved saying at least one complimentary thing and one way that the work could improve. There was always a way that things could improve. To those who haven't been through this, criticism may seem personal or hateful. It really isn't. Criticism is required for discussion, but if the discussion gets off-topic with personal attacks, then the discussion stalls and nobody gets a chance to re-evaluate and evolve their own positions on the topic. We lose the ability to IMPROVE, and criticism is meant to help foster improvement.

I'm not surprised that some are upset when I critique. Maybe I need to rework and improve my methods; I'm open to that idea. If I put out a thought that is critical, but fair, I just don't think the proper response it to make things personal. I know the reasons behind such a response, but they take things nowhere. 

I hope this helps.

XXX OOO


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

unterhausen said:


> I've never seen your stoker stem, but I've seen pictures of stoker stems integrated with the frame.


Dave's design was nice, a vertical, pivoting stem with telescoping capability, if I recall correctly. It elegantly solves the need for adjustability in a very unusual way.

I've done two tandems that had chassis-mounted stoker stems, but I was only able to come up with a more conventional HTA-style stub to mount a stock stem to. I knew of Dave's work (in time for the 2nd one)but thought it wouldn't be cool to copy it. His design is better.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

pvd said:


> I'm a little sick of seeing so many perfectly 'crafted' bikes with little or no actual 'design' or 'thinking' put into them. Like I said, how many builders even had a print to show to go along with their bikes? Close to none, i\I'm sure. How many builders noted anything about the customer or intended rider of the bike? Close to none, I'm sure.
> 
> I'd rather see a decent print and decent construction instead of flawless plumbing on it's own.


of course all bikes have a design! how else do you make them? i'm not sure about others, *but* all my NAHBS bikes have been bikes that were purpose built for clients. funny you should mention it though - i have a booth "design" for next year i think you'll like.........Steve.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> OK, Steve
> 
> I'll ask again and again and again (because you refuse to answer)
> 
> ...


????? i'm not angry. man, you are certainly perplexing. i'll give you that. i just think that you think allot of yourself and get a kick out of looking down on other's work. that's all. Steve.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> Hey Brant, Does this thread reinforce your desire to for a collaborative design effort among framebuilders? I'm imagining a room with Peter, Steve, and myself locked inside...
> 
> I started another NAHBS thread and I hope people will post their thoughts over there without it degenerating. If it helps, I won't post anything more in that thread.
> 
> ...


OK - critique my work. let's hear it..........Steve.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> OK, Steve
> 
> I'll ask again and again and again (because you refuse to answer)
> 
> ...


 and you haven't awnsered the question of how many frames you've built.............are you afraid that the low # would skew poeple's view on your opions? Steve.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

For the third time:

"
OK, Steve

I'll ask again and again and again (because you refuse to answer)

D.F.L. (that's me) wrote: "Steve,[coconino] I see you on the boards asking customers for new ideas. I can't think of any Coconino 'signature' features, so perhaps you've never tried to develop unique features to incorporate in your work. If you had, you might feel differently about others taking that work. Correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe it's just a matter of perspective.

Also, I think I'm less worked up than you hope. What sort of person hopes another gets upset, anyway?"

Steve, I didn't fail to see that you haven't honestly answered this question. I know that your pride wants you to 'win', but this isn't about winning or losing. You chimed in with a non-constructive and insulting contribution. I only ask that you bring something useful.

Again, what is it in you that's so angry?"

(I've built about 20 frames this year and supplemented my income with freelance design work. You satisfied? NOW what are you going to ask to try to divert attention from your behavior?)

Why are you so angry? Why are you so mean?


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Well, if nothing else, this thread proves that we're the retarded ones and NAHBS is just fine.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> ...I think it's time to reclaim the word retarded; we're all retarded! Embrace it!...





DWF said:


> Well, if nothing else, this thread proves that we're the retarded ones and NAHBS is just fine.


Is this DWF's Joe Biden moment? 

For the most part, this has been a waste. I liked that some gave thought to the intellectual property issues. Perhaps Steve and I could make more headway off-list, though I'm doubtful.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

D.F.L. said:


> For the third time:
> 
> "
> OK, Steve
> ...


wow! 20 frames this year? one every three days - your'e an animal! good job! that's downright Zanotti-esque! post some pics, please! do you have a blog showing your current work? and boy, you have me pegged - mean & angry - that's me. ask anyone who knows me & they'll back you up on that one. Steve.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

coconinocycles said:


> wow! 20 frames this year? one every three days - your'e an animal! good job! that's downright Zanotti-esque! post some pics, please! do you have a blog showing your current work? and boy, you have me pegged - mean & angry - that's me. ask anyone who knows me & they'll back you up on that one. Steve.


Why are you being a cock?

And you've still not said how many you built.

ps: I presumed he meant "in the last year".


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## ted wojcik (Mar 12, 2006)

*Nahbs*

It appears to me that most have really missed what the show is all about. Do you really think that there are enough potential customers to put all this effort into single speed art bikes. The show is about impressing other builders and wannabe builders. I would guess that most of the potential buyers have a great respect for the workmanship there, but do you really think that someone is going to take one of these pieces of art and hammer it into oblivion or leave it out in the rain on a long distance tour? The show justifies itself as a display of the unbelievable workmanship demonstrated by some American framebuilders/painters. There was simply no venue for this before NAHBS. There have always been some show bikes and concept bikes at Interbike, but never the gallery that NAHBS provides. These bikes are there for viewing as an example of workmanship as well as some showing their products for function. Respect should be shown for either category. As far as using some others ideas, all machines are based on the six basic machines, so matter what, you are copying somewhat else idea. It is the simplification of these ideas that demonstrates elegance. Refinement makes the world go 'round. Stop dumping on others work and learn to be humble about your own


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Thank you for this, Ted, and with that I close the thread.


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