# Pike vs Boxxer with charger damper



## steven_first (Jan 7, 2010)

Short and simple.... I have a 2014 kona process 153 with a Pike RC that I love...I have done very rough downhill on it and it feels really good 98% of the time (1% is when I am crashing and the other 1% is when I am not riding the bike). I have a 2013 GT Fury with a stock Boxxer RC that I hate. It spikes and feels like poo compared to the pike. It handles big single hit jumps good...rides over basic bumps "ok"....rock garden or Gnarr= spiking, pain, and no fun.

The question....

Well the Charger Damper upgrade for the Boxxer make it feel like the Pike or better? Both would have the Charger damper at that point and it seems that the answer would be yes but I am hoping someone has tired a 2010-14 stock Boxxer and a new 2015 or upgraded Boxxer and can compare them.


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## charging_rhinos (Jul 29, 2008)

what is your riding weight and the settings you run on your Boxxer? The Boxxer is a pretty adjustable fork. The Charger damper isn't a miracle change. It's better from what I've ridden, but it isn't a night-and-day change from crap to excellent. It sounds to me that if yours is causing you pain, it may be a matter of adjustment (and possibly maintenance).


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## mtnryder56 (Sep 13, 2008)

The Boxxer RC is not a very adjustable fork, the R2C2 is though. The RC should be good for you if you are a) a light rider that rides aggressively b) a medium weight rider that rides normally or C) a heavy rider that rides slow. 

The reviews that I have read about the new Boxxer with Charger (I believe from Dirt Mag) say that the charger is a game changer. It makes sense, the Pike is a game changer fork in it's field and the main difference is the Charger damper. The review even went as far as to question the business decision to offer the Charger as a lone item and to be backward compatible with previous Boxxers. I think that unless you are heavy and are a very aggressive rider, or if you are light and are not an aggressive rider, you should go with the charger damper. It should make a big improvement


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

With the Charger damper you can run the rebound really fast yet still not get kickback on G-outs. To me it really is a game changer and a no-brainer to go with the upgrade if you already have a Boxxer. Let me put it this way, PUSH used to have a kit for the Boxxers to improve the rebound damping recovery to do similar and yet their system wasn't even close to what the new Charger damper can do!

Have FUN!

G MAN


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## Sir HC (Aug 15, 2014)

Idid have a 2010 Revelation RLT TI fitted to my Nukeproof Mega TR, whilst it was a good fork, it felt a bit flexy and struggled with repeated hits and generally wasn't very confidence inspiring, CRC was doing Pikes cheap. Fitted the to the Mega and havent looked back since, the front end is more planted and gives more confidence to push the bike harder, it also rides higher in the travel and dives less (which is great for the downhills)

I have a Morewood Makulu with a Boxxer Team. Whilst I managed to get a good setup, after fitting the Pike to the Mega, I figured there must be a benefit to fitting a Charger to the Boxxer. I had already fitted a racing bro's seal kit to the boxxers which made a big difference to the stiction of the fork.

Fitting the charger was a doddle, gluing the insert in was the only tricky bit and left it overnight to set before rebuilding the forks.
First ride it didn't take long to get the forks setup to somewhere near where I wanted, there is only rebound and compression, which makes the process a lot quicker.
All the hype can be believed, the damper really is a big improvement over the stock team internals. If I did upgrade the fork now, would certainly opt for the World cup for the air spring and bottomless token which is a great feature on the Pike.
There is no more spiking or wierdness from the front end anymore, there is certainly less arm fatigue.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

As good as the charger is (and I have one), I'd upgrade the boxxer with an avalanche cartridge. Although the pike is great, a custom-tuned compression valve is even better, and yes, it will make your boxxer smoother the faster you go (had one installed in a 888) without spiking. The compression valves are similar, except the avalanche one will be tuned for your weight.


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

^^ What's the price difference Jayem? I'd forgotten about that option!

Cheers,

G


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## ftbjoe (Oct 21, 2004)

The avalanche is going to be more than the charger damper. Also the weight specific tuning you are talking about is possible on the charger as well depending on how mechanically competent you are. Pretty much if you know how to bleed a pair of brakes you would be able to do it. That being said my experience with my boxxer wc with the charger I have not needed it. The charger damper is definitely the way I would go if I were the op. You will get the most bang for your buck. You will not be able to buy a fork for $400 that will out perform your current boxxer with the charger upgrade. 


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ftbjoe said:


> The avalanche is going to be more than the charger damper. Also the weight specific tuning you are talking about is possible on the charger as well depending on how mechanically competent you are.


Kind of, not really. Do you have a lathe to vary the orifices in the piston? Most factory compression and rebound pistons are very restrictive to keep fat fatties from busting the shocks, but you can usually get quite a bit more performance with more flow and other mechanisms, like the bottom-out cone that avalanche employs. There are of course the shims, which can be done by yourself, but without some more advanced knowledge you may miss out on a few rather important principles that are easy to get wrong. Then there's the true-mid-valve. The pike has a crude mid-valve, but the avalanche is quite a bit better (if you spring for that feature).

Lastly, buying the shims, oil, bleeder, and necessary stuff to re-do the shims (which isn't the same as the custom damper by avalanche) will easily make up for the fact that the Avalanche cart costs about $60 more.

You also get the benefit of being able to do dead-simple oil changes with the avalanche cart, unlike the charger.


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

^^ Downside to the Avy cartridge is it does add a lot of weight and uses a smaller piston because of the "sleeve". Oil changes are a lot easier but that's the beauty of the Charger damper - prevents air/oil contamination so you have to change out about once a year vs. once a month if racing. Plus the Charger damper isn't as cheaped out as you're making it out to be - it's damn good out of the box! Don't get me wrong, I love Craig's work but this is a case where his product isn't going to show worlds of difference, even if out of the rider weight range (RS has excellent advice on what to shim for BTW so there is no "guessing" as you imply).

Have FUN!

G MAN


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## crseekins (Oct 7, 2008)

Gman086 said:


> ^^ Downside to the Avy cartridge is it does add a lot of weight and uses a smaller piston because of the "sleeve". Oil changes are a lot easier but that's the beauty of the Charger damper - prevents air/oil contamination so you have to change out about once a year vs. once a month if racing. Plus the Charger damper isn't as cheaped out as you're making it out to be - it's damn good out of the box! Don't get me wrong, I love Craig's work but this is a case where his product isn't going to show worlds of difference, even if out of the rider weight range (RS has excellent advice on what to shim for BTW so there is no "guessing" as you imply).
> 
> Have FUN!
> 
> G MAN


Same size pistons, 20 mm. Weight is about the same, the charger cartridge weighs more but we add a bit more oil, also oil changes are only required every 2-3 years, and the charger damper needs bleeding often because it is not actually charged so air gets into the oil under heavy use. Revalving to them means adding one 18 x .15 or removing one, also there is no midvalve to tune like our cartridge.


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

Great info Craig, I stand corrected! I'll be going your route then when I build my Darkside (if I ever get a job!).

Cheers,

G


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## Andrew8404 (Nov 20, 2011)

So I just picked up a new 14 Kona Operator with the Boxxer RC. Everyone says get the charger upgrade to make it a team fork. Copy that but is it worth spending an extra 200 for the air upgrade from the team??

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## steven_first (Jan 7, 2010)

Well I am glad that the AVY cartarge came into the discussion because after all it is an option; one that I have been looking at for a long time. My biggest fear with the AVY has always been its tuneability. It is so far beyond what I could ever hope to adjust that it has made me afraid to buy the kit and try it out. I know that there are good guides out there on how to set it up and in fact it comes pre-setup for your riding over all but it hasn't really been enough to belay my fears of bad setup and guessing what is wrong. At least with a RC boxxer it is either A rebound or B compression or C broken..... 

With all that being said the fact is that the AVY only cost a bit more than the Charger if you can install it yourself. From what I gather from this discussion is that the Charger is a HUGE difference from the stock boxxer but the AVY is, if properly setup, still likely to be better than the Charger as long as it is well maintained. I have ridden with a guy who has a fork with an AVY kit installed and he has said that it is the best thing he has ever ridden as far as forks. One other known advantage to the AVY is that if you break your forks or whatever you can pull out the kit and install it on a new fork.

One notable "problem" with the AVY is that there is 0 videos on youtube or anywhere that I know of about the AVY. Nothing on what it is, how it works, how to install it, reviews....nothing. On top of that only a few people know what "AVY" is or that it even exists. That makes it hard for me to get behind a product that has been around for so long and yet so little is known about. Just my thoughts though.


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## crseekins (Oct 7, 2008)

steven_first said:


> Well I am glad that the AVY cartarge came into the discussion because after all it is an option; one that I have been looking at for a long time. My biggest fear with the AVY has always been its tuneability. It is so far beyond what I could ever hope to adjust that it has made me afraid to buy the kit and try it out. I know that there are good guides out there on how to set it up and in fact it comes pre-setup for your riding over all but it hasn't really been enough to belay my fears of bad setup and guessing what is wrong. At least with a RC boxxer it is either A rebound or B compression or C broken.....
> 
> With all that being said the fact is that the AVY only cost a bit more than the Charger if you can install it yourself. From what I gather from this discussion is that the Charger is a HUGE difference from the stock boxxer but the AVY is, if properly setup, still likely to be better than the Charger as long as it is well maintained. I have ridden with a guy who has a fork with an AVY kit installed and he has said that it is the best thing he has ever ridden as far as forks. One other known advantage to the AVY is that if you break your forks or whatever you can pull out the kit and install it on a new fork.
> 
> One notable "problem" with the AVY is that there is 0 videos on youtube or anywhere that I know of about the AVY. Nothing on what it is, how it works, how to install it, reviews....nothing. On top of that only a few people know what "AVY" is or that it even exists. That makes it hard for me to get behind a product that has been around for so long and yet so little is known about. Just my thoughts though.


Here is a link to the install manual:

http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/Cartridge%20Kit/Cartridge%20Kit%20Assy%20Boxxer%2032%20and%2035%20rev%20C.pdf

Here is a link to the revalving manual:

http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/Cartridge%20Kit/Cartridge%20Kit%20Revalve.pdf

Here is a link to some reviews:

Reviews


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## steven_first (Jan 7, 2010)

Ah, I didn't realize that you were the "Craig" as in AVY Craig. It is looking like I will have your kit in my DH rig next year at this point. I got to quit worrying about it being "too complicated" to tune and just enjoy the thought that it won't need serviced every few months like my current setup does. Are there any big changes or modifications that will be coming up to the cartage system anytime soon that would warrant waiting to buy?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Gman086 said:


> Oil changes are a lot easier but that's the beauty of the Charger damper - prevents air/oil contamination so you have to change out about once a year vs. once a month if racing.


Oil always came out of my Avy clear and if you are having to change oil every month, you are doing something wrong. It's not like the non-anno marzocchis where after 6 months it comes out as a foul smelling sludge.


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## motochick (Jun 22, 2010)

Steven, there is one more "problem" with the AVY set-up and I will share with you that little secret. Actually, two. First, if you only do your fork you will realize how bad your shock is. Save yourself the agony and just do them both at the same time. Second, speed. You will be riding SO much faster then you ever thought possible, it will scare the piss out of you. Hope you have very good brakes.


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

steven_first said:


> On top of that only a few people know what "AVY" is or that it even exists. That makes it hard for me to get behind a product that has been around for so long and yet so little is known about. Just my thoughts though.


If you dig a little on here and Ridemonkey, there are huge threads with details on the cartridges, along with lots of input from Craig. No complaints at all about the Avy cart in my 888, although I might investigate running one in a lighter chassis next time.


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## steven_first (Jan 7, 2010)

motochick said:


> Steven, there is one more "problem" with the AVY set-up and I will share with you that little secret. Actually, two. First, if you only do your fork you will realize how bad your shock is. Save yourself the agony and just do them both at the same time. Second, speed. You will be riding SO much faster then you ever thought possible, it will scare the piss out of you. Hope you have very good brakes.


I like this post; youd' make a good salesman. The bike came with formula RO brakes that will stop a train so yeah I should be ok when I start blasting down the trails rather than rattling my eyeballs out of my head!


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