# Bear Attack from the "You gotta be kidding me" file



## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Bike collision with grizzly bear killed Forest Service cop

-F


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Urrgghhl What a tragedy for him and his family.


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## Tinymountain (Oct 26, 2016)

So sad. Neither of them had bear spray, firearms or cell phone? I don't live in grizzly country but it seems like you would want to carry at least 2 of those everywhere. Hang some bells off your bars too.


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## splitendz (Nov 13, 2015)

Scary. I almost collided with 2 black bears who were just sitting on the edge of a local trail a few months ago. Same situation; downhill run, came around a curve, and there they were. I was going so fast I blew right beside them before I could even think. They were scrambling to try to get away from me as well. Certainly an eye opening experience. My prayers and condolences to this man's family. Very sad.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

How does one not carry a cell phone while mt biking in the woods?


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## muddytire (Aug 27, 2009)

leeboh said:


> How does one not carry a cell phone while mt biking in the woods?


They say they carried no gun, pepper spray, or phone. Your friend is being mauled by a bear...and you wish he'd had a phone with him?

I get that a phone is a good idea in general, but crikey...that guy needed one of the other two options at that point. The only thing that maybe could have saved the dude were the gun or the bear spray...and if it were me on the bottom I'd prefer you start with the spray and work your way up from there!


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

muddytire said:


> They say they carried no gun, pepper spray, or phone. Your friend is being mauled by a bear...and you wish he'd had a phone with him?
> 
> I get that a phone is a good idea in general, but crikey...that guy needed one of the other two options at that point. The only thing that maybe could have saved the dude were the gun or the bear spray...and if it were me on the bottom I'd prefer you start with the spray and work your way up from there!


I'm pretty sure he meant his buddy that was behind him didn't have a cell phone, not the pore guy being attacked. He had to run through the woods and to the road for help. Apparently the motorist that picked him up didn't have a cell phone or there was no service which is the more likely scenario. Either way the guy never had a chance and his buddy had no chance at saving his friend without being killed himself. Very tragic and not a good idea to ride Strava times in thick forested Grizzly bear country.

I found this study to be very interesting.

From that article.

A 2000 study in Banff National Park in Alberta, Canada, found that though hikers greatly outnumber bikers on trails, the number of bear encounters for the bikers was disproportionately high. The study attributed the numbers to bikers' increased speed and stealth when traveling.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Man!...That's the stuff of fiction right there. Assuming from the article the bear had been tagged I can't help but wonder if that was a factor in the outcome.

I spent a season van'n it down by the river in Polebridge Montana and rode plenty of back country bear habitat trails. Inevitably the "what would you do" talk of this very scenario would come up around the campfire when the guys that rode the area got together. One guy in particular was adamant if he rode into the bear full steam it would get spooked and take off. I think it's safe to say not a good idea. Infact, under the circumstances, I don't think there's much one could have done. We can judge what his partner did, but untill we find ourselves in the same situation it would be in vain.

It takes a tremendous impact to break both wrists and a shoulder. If there is a silver lining here, ha was unconsciousness on impact.


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## splitendz (Nov 13, 2015)

leeboh said:


> How does one not carry a cell phone while mt biking in the woods?[/QU
> 
> One local trail area is actually a refuge for problem bears. I've seen several there, but never had one approach. No cell service in that area.


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## Tinymountain (Oct 26, 2016)

A perfect sh*t storm...


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## muddytire (Aug 27, 2009)

And now we know why it's called a bunny hop, and not a bear hop.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

LigLury said:


> He was doing 25 mph around a blind corner on a multi-use non directional trail. Just sayin'


Glad I was not the only one thinking about that....

Also bear bells are a real thing. I have one on my bike to warn pedestrians of my approach, but they are designed for alerting bears to help spook them away from the noise.. they cost like $3.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> Glad I was not the only one thinking about that....
> 
> Also bear bells are a real thing. I have one on my bike to warn pedestrians of my approach, but they are designed for alerting bears to help spook them away from the noise.. they cost like $3.


There is no concrete evidence that bear bells increase or decrease bear/human interaction or the outcome there after. Having spent plenty of time in grizz country I've experienced several different behaviors. 1- I clap,whistle and talk loudly in thick bush to find a bear in close proximity munching away like he could care less I'm there. 2- I make no noise in the bush to find a bear munching away like he could care less I'm there. 3- I come around a corner making no noise to see a bear hightailing it out of there. 4- I come across a recent "claim" the bear has half buried, crapped, and peed on. I know the bear is around, the bear knows I'm around, but I never see the bear. I don't like scenarios #4 at all. Other than fishing I have never carried, nor even owned a fire arm, bear spray, or bell.

This is a one off situation and bears have a range of personalities including being unpredictable. If he was going slower or had a bell is mere speculation on our part regarding a different outcome. What stood out to me in the article is that his partner bushwacked with his bike in tow to the road. I'm thinking I would have dropped my bike here. Who knows, maybe he thought he needed to pedal once he got to the road.

I'd like to think I would have done something of more consequence to save my buddy here. Untill we're tested, you simply never know.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I don't think I have ever heard anyone claim that sneaking up on a bear is better then making loud noises while approaching. Generally making noises is the preferred method for bear deterrent when one has no spray.

Bears don't "hunt" humans, but they can certainly be startled and attack out of fear, so sure, the bell noise and a slower approach could have startled the bear into attacking anyway.

That said, if I was riding in an area that is known to have bears, I would ride with a bear bell rather then come around a blind corner and run into one that never heard me coming.

And 25mph is faster than most trail speed limits, I have no idea if this trail in question has a speed limit of any kind, but I did find that interesting.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Has anyone caught on to what his wife stated? Dare I say Strava was involved. Whether it be this instance or prior the rider was obviously a Strava beat my best time rider. He rode this trail regularly out of his back door. Riding in Grizzly bear habitat in thick vegetation and coming around a blind corner at Mach I. Strava? His wife pretty much cemented that he was a regular "beat my best time" rider in her statements. Was he on Strava on that particular ride? I say Possibly.

The wife's statements:









Strava or not this is a tragic event.

*RIP Brad Treat:* Heart felt thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

*Mountain Biking: New reaveal into tragic bear attack.*

Bike collision with grizzly bear killed Forest Service cop

This unfortunate encounter several months ago has just shed light on new findings into what actually happened.

He came around a blind corner at a high rate of speed and crashed into the Grizzly Bear. The bear acted in a surprised reaction and took out the threat. They determined he hit the bear at speed without braking. Flew over the bars and broke both of his wrists.

Dare I say Strava was involved. He rode this trail out of his back door regularly. His wife stated he tried to beat his times. This screams Strava to me. Whether Strava was being used or not on this ride hasn't come to light. But his wife's statements pretty much cemented the fact that he was a Strava regular.

Tragic none the less.

*R.I.P. Brad Treat:* My heart felt sympathy to family and friends.

His wife's statements:









Lesson learned to future riders riding in dense vegetated Grizzly Bear habitat.

His buddy made the best decision in turning and going for help. Had he intervened in the attack to save his friend, pretty much guaranteed both would have been victims.


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## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

The guy died. Dead. Killed. Not hurt, not injured. I think sometimes people forget what we are writing, joking, arguing about is/was a real person now lost to a whole group of people. A little humility and humanity goes a long ways.

Let go of the labels and just appreciate that not everything is controllable. The bear killed him. Not speed, not Strava, not a lack of a phone, spray or bells. The bear chose not to run, rather stand his ground. Bear contact is serious business and can happen at any speed.

Thoughts are with the family.


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## ozz (May 30, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Was he on Strava on that particular ride?


Doesn't Strava require a cellphone to track your route?


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

I started to post something in the other thread, but left it alone. I looked up that trail on Trailforks, and it's a bi-directional multi use trail. He could have hit someone's kid, an elderly person, etc. It's irresponsible, and self entitled, period. I'm sorry the guy lost his life over it, and I feel for his family and friends, but still. Also, there are lots of apps out there now to track your performance, not just Strava. It's just the most popular. I use it too, but in a responsible manner.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

bankerboy said:


> The guy died. Dead. Killed. Not hurt, not injured. I think sometimes people forget what we are writing, joking, arguing about is/was a real person now lost to a whole group of people. A little humility and humanity goes a long ways.
> 
> Let go of the labels and just appreciate that not everything is controllable. The bear killed him. Not speed, not Strava, not a lack of a phone, spray or bells. The bear chose not to run, rather stand his ground. Bear contact is serious business and can happen at any speed.
> 
> Thoughts are with the family.


I agree, read my edited thoughts at the end. And I would never joke on something this serious.



ozz said:


> Doesn't Strava require a cellphone to track your route?


True, and if it is Strava it will come to light. I'm just basing a possibility of it being it from his wife's statements.


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

Strava does not require a cell phone. Any compatible GPS device that doesn't rely on cell service works just fine where a cell phone won't. The guy lost his life, and I'm sorry for his family and friends. But there's a lesson to be learned here as well. I catch flak constantly from riding friends about my bell, and I don't care. It lets hikers, other riders, and wildlife know there's another rider coming. I also don't make a habit of hauling ass around blind corners either.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> I don't think I have ever heard anyone claim that sneaking up on a bear is better then making loud noises while approaching.


I wouldn't advocate that you "sneak up on" or "make loud noises while approaching" a bear. Both sound like bad ideas to me. I wouldn't suggest you approach a bear at all. Bears are curious creatures and it's well within possibility that one may be attracted to a bell.

I'll regularly break 30mph and occasionally 40mph riding. Trail speed limits are a foreign concept to me. Let's keep that stuff in the California forums.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I read was very familiar with the trail and he was a Forrest Service LEO. Gonna go out on a limb and guess he knew about the amount of traffic and the bear situation in that area. It's sad. 

Speed limits, wtf?


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Has anyone caught on to what his wife stated? Dare I say Strava was involved. Whether it be this instance or prior the rider was obviously a Strava beat my best time rider. He rode this trail regularly out of his back door. Riding in Grizzly bear habitat in thick vegetation and coming around a blind corner at Mach I. Strava? His wife pretty much cemented that he was a regular "beat my best time" rider in her statements. Was he on Strava on that particular ride? I say Possibly.
> 
> The wife's statements:
> 
> View attachment 1125321


How many forums do you have to post this on? And why the obsession with whether or not he was a Strava user? How does that matter? I didn't know him, but we have a lot of mutual friends. He was an all-around super-fit backcountry athlete, so he was the kind of XC rider who usually put the hammer down. Despite all the "tut-tutting," I imagine most people on this forum have had narrow misses that could have resulted in serious injury or death. I know I have. Bankerboy is right- the bear killed him. Sometimes things just go really badly.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

One thread on this is not enough?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

evasive said:


> How many forums do you have to post this on? And why the obsession with whether or not he was a Strava user? How does that matter? I didn't know him, but we have a lot of mutual friends. He was an all-around super-fit backcountry athlete, so he was the kind of XC rider who usually put the hammer down. Despite all the "tut-tutting," I imagine most people on this forum have had narrow misses that could have resulted in serious injury or death. I know I have. Bankerboy is right- the bear killed him. Sometimes things just go really badly.


I agree and I stated as such. It was a tragic event that could happen to any one of us using Strava or not. We are all guilty of flying around corners like that. My point was to get it out there to future riders to be more vigilant in and aware of conditions like that. Using Strava and similar apps somewhat gives some a superhero feeling of beating our times or others. I'm sorry for your loss, it's a huge loss. He sounded like an amazing man. My condolences if I offended you or anyone else. A story like this effects not just friends and family but all outdoorsman. Especially those involved in the same sport he enjoyed.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Tragic none the less.


But not _quite_ as tragic? Seems to me Strava should be left out of this one.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> One thread on this is not enough?


Different people read different forums. Some read all some read few. Just trying to get this tragic story out there.


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

Riding fast on the Mcloed river trail near Mt. Shasta City, CA, I rode around a blind corner and surprised a large cinnamon colored black bear about 100' away. The XT brakes worked well but the bear charged and reared up about 20' in front of me. Then, he huffed, turned and ran up the steep bank into the forest. 

That was the second bear I'd surprised and there were two encounters with lions, one with what sure looked like predatory behavior. 

Now, I have a bell on each bicycle and put up the noise it makes. Many hikers have complemented me on using the bell but I don't tell them the real reason it's there.

Whether or not bells are always protective, I know that surprising an animal with what looks like an attack is never protective.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

bankerboy said:


> The guy died. Dead. Killed. Not hurt, not injured. I think sometimes people forget what we are writing, joking, arguing about is/was a real person now lost to a whole group of people. A little humility and humanity goes a long ways.
> 
> Let go of the labels and just appreciate that not everything is controllable. The bear killed him. Not speed, not Strava, not a lack of a phone, spray or bells. The bear chose not to run, rather stand his ground. Bear contact is serious business and can happen at any speed.
> 
> Thoughts are with the family.


x2^ Critiquing someone unable to defend themselves is bad form. Condolences to his friends and family.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

^^Agreed. He was doing nothing wrong -- just a victim of bad luck. Strava should indeed be left out of this one -- we don't even know he was using it.

And, I time myself on most rides that I do regularly. I don't use Strava, but that doesn't mean I don't push myself sometimes. Funny how people rush to judgement on this -- but it could have happened to anyone. Should he have been carrying bear spray? You bet. I almost ran into a bear with two cubs last year, but fortunately they ran off the trail. I had time to stop, and then she came back at me. I had bear spray and was about to use it, but for some reason I decided to wave my arms and yell. It worked. I highly recommend using a chest holster for bear spray if you're in bear country. I ride with one all the time, and can't even tell it's on -- yet access is immediate.

Anyway, I'm a friends with a friend of this guy -- and he was a great man by all accounts. It's an unfortunate loss, and we should just leave it at that.

My $.02


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

telemike said:


> Whether or not bells are always protective, I know that surprising an animal with what looks like an attack is never protective.


That's a fair and rational reason to use them. I'm not anti bell, but I have witnessed them give people a false sense of security. Especially people with children and tourists in bear country such as Glacier. They have the obligatory walking stick and bell but are otherwise clueless of their surroundings or how to behave in bear country. I'm personally not convinced it would have had any influence on your bear incounter either.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Different people read different forums. Some read all some read few. Just trying to get this tragic story out there.


The original thread is bound to be at the top of the page for quite a while. Making another one just clutters up the forum.

I don't get how you think no one had read the part about Treat trying to beat his best time on the trail? And what does it matter that Strava may be involved???


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> The original thread is bound to be at the top of the page for quite a while. Making another one just clutters up the forum.
> 
> I don't get how you think no one had read the part about Treat trying to beat his best time on the trail? And what does it matter that Strava may be involved???


I'm not going to sit here and debate what I said with you. One thread two thread six threads, different forums. It's world news and will be talked about for years.

Because Strava may have been involved which gives those that use it a sense of superhuman feats. Trying to beat ones time or the times of others. Do those that don't use it act the same way? Quite often yes, but using it drives you to push your limits beyond sensible riding. I don't know if it was involved or not. We are all guilty of riding too fast around blind corners. It's a tragic event that should be looked at by all those that ride and learned from.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

cookieMonster said:


> ^^Agreed. He was doing nothing wrong -- just a victim of bad luck. Strava should indeed be left out of this one -- we don't even know he was using it.


Just because I brought the dreaded Strava word into this doesn't make me the one who hinted towards it. Look at his wife's statements. It's obvious by those statements it was a frequent thing he used. We don't know if it was used here.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Breaking news: Strava kills!

Story at 11


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> Breaking news: Strava kills!
> 
> Story at 11


Please refrain from any ill attempt at humor on this topic.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Just because I brought the dreaded Strava word into this doesn't make me the one who hinted towards it. Look at his wife's statements. It's obvious by those statements it was a frequent thing he used. We don't know if it was used here.


So he was a user? Like a junkie?

Freak accidents can happen, it is tragic.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

J.B. Weld said:


> So he was a user? Like a junkie?
> 
> Freak accidents can happen, it is tragic.


As I already stated in numerous posts up there. Could happen to any of us, Strava or not.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Please refrain from any ill attempt at humor on this topic.


No humor was involved.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LigLury said:


> Nobody was criticizing his character or personality. What WAS being criticized was a mistake /behavior that turned out to be fatal. Not to do so would be foolish.


Never said anything about character or personality. Good god, leave it to mtbr to turn a tragic misfortune into an argubot slugfest.

Not criticizing a behavioral "mistake" would be "foolish?" Too much internet.......


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

If this was a multi-use bidirectional trail, as stated above, then I agree with, and would like to repeat, the observation that tearing around blind corners at high speed is risky and irresponsible. Tragically, it cost this man his life. It could just as easily have cost someone else' life or limb.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

^ok that's officially the 4th most confusing post I've ever read here.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

Maybe steroids were involved.
Maybe he just had a double espresso.
Maybe he had to take a dump and was hauling ass back to the trailhead.
A good family man died in a tragic incident. Who gives a rat's ass about strava?


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Here's another article. It has the same basic facts but adds some additional comments and suggestions from the Interagency Review Board, which wrote the report.
Review of grizzly attack raises warnings for mountain bikers | Local | missoulian.com


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

Well hell, now I really need to know what made #1.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

muddytire said:


> They say they carried no gun, pepper spray, or phone. Your friend is being mauled by a bear...and you wish he'd had a phone with him?
> 
> I get that a phone is a good idea in general, but crikey...that guy needed one of the other two options at that point. The only thing that maybe could have saved the dude were the gun or the bear spray...and if it were me on the bottom I'd prefer you start with the spray and work your way up from there!


One of the basic rules we have riding in bear-country is that everyone carries bear-spray. It's not so much that you'd be able to spray the bear that surprise-attacks you from the side of the trail, but more so that you can help out someone in your group being attacked by a bear, and of course if they charge you with enough distance for you to react. It also needs to be accessible fast. I've had to use it when cornered by a moose (which are usually far more dangerous on the whole than bears).

The other thing is bells, the times when I did find bears in the middle of the trail last summer, they were already moving/running away by the time I came around the corner, IMO because of the bear bells we use.


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## Andrew8404 (Nov 20, 2011)

Strava has nothing to do with this. A classic case of let's blame anything else but the responsible person. Sad story. 


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

bankerboy said:


> The guy died. Dead. Killed. Not hurt, not injured. I think sometimes people forget what we are writing, joking, arguing about is/was a real person now lost to a whole group of people. A little humility and humanity goes a long ways.
> 
> Let go of the labels and just appreciate that not everything is controllable. The bear killed him. Not speed, not Strava, not a lack of a phone, spray or bells. The bear chose not to run, rather stand his ground. Bear contact is serious business and can happen at any speed.
> 
> Thoughts are with the family.


Agreed. The poor guy would obviously like to have everything back and have stayed home that day. The wife may be both devastated and angry. And think about the buddy riding with him. How many times is he going to say "Had I just brought __ with me on the ride." Probably for a long time.

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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Strava isn't the point here. If you're a serious athlete you're always trying to improve your fitness. If I can give you the SparkNotes of Friel, you ride a lot and then train hard, harder, and harder and rest. That's how all athletes prepare. This event was a tragedy for his family and every life that he touched. That could happen to any of us. Come around a blind corner and ______ is in the trail.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Wow, it would be hard to bring my 9 to bear with two broken wrists. Pretty much a nightmare situation.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

What a frightening situation. I can't imagine...


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

whats with the "lets leave strava out of this one" crap... if he was trying to beat his strava times, then there is nothing wrong with mentioning that...


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

HPIguy said:


> I started to post something in the other thread, but left it alone. I looked up that trail on Trailforks, and it's a bi-directional multi use trail. He could have hit someone's kid, an elderly person, etc. It's irresponsible, and self entitled, period. I'm sorry the guy lost his life over it, and I feel for his family and friends, but still. Also, there are lots of apps out there now to track your performance, not just Strava. It's just the most popular. I use it too, but in a responsible manner.


I was thinking the same thing... we all should careful going around blind corners..


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## manpurse (Feb 6, 2011)

RajunCajun44 said:


> I was thinking the same thing... we all should careful going around blind corners..


Ditto. Slow down on the blind corners. I've seen too many close calls with hikers, dogs, kids, horses, and whatever else on the trails. Riding recklessly is a good way to get mtn. bikers kicked off the trails.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Rod said:


> Strava isn't the point here. If you're a serious athlete you're always trying to improve your fitness. If I can give you the SparkNotes of Friel, you ride a lot and then train hard, harder, and harder and rest. That's how all athletes prepare. This event was a tragedy for his family and every life that he touched. That could happen to any of us. Come around a blind corner and ______ is in the trail.


As is every one of my posts. It could happen to any of us, Strava or not. We've all come around a blind corner going to fast. I brought up Strava because of his wife's statements. If it was Strava then it speaks volumes in how some abuse it without regard for other trail users. You can't beat your time or anyone else's unless you are balls out flying, blind corners or not.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Mookie said:


> Here's another article. It has the same basic facts but adds some additional comments and suggestions from the Interagency Review Board, which wrote the report.
> Review of grizzly attack raises warnings for mountain bikers | Local | missoulian.com


Holy smokes! That is the very definition of a nightmare scenario. To come around a corner and see your buddy over the shoulder of a grizzly still clipped into his bike. Jesus Christ, I can't even imagine. I've been in a life or death situation a time or two, but I just can't even fathom what these guys went through. RIP Treat.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I brought up Strava because of his wife's statements. If it was Strava then it speaks volumes in how some abuse it without regard for other trail users.


Only one person knows if Strava had anything to do with that accident, and even if it was involved (we'll never know) it doesn't speak anything about how some abuse it without regard for other trail users. Without facts it's completely irrelevant, unless of course you lace your contention with speculation, conjecture, and pontification.

What is important-


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

J.B. Weld said:


> Only one person knows if Strava had anything to do with that accident, and even if it was involved (we'll never know) it doesn't speak anything about how some abuse it without regard for other trail users. Without facts it's completely irrelevant, unless of course you lace your contention with speculation, conjecture, and pontification.
> 
> What is important-
> 
> View attachment 1125485


The point is if it was used it speaks volumes of how some abuse it. I think you got the point but felt the need to twist what I said. As far one person knowing if it was being used. I'm sure it could be proven one way or the other if it was looked in to. I have nothing against Strava or apps like it, if it's used responsibly. Open trails without blind corners with zero to few other trail users out. Like mid week. A tragic and unfortunate event could have been a family around that corner. His speed was such that there was no skid marks. These apps make us more prone to ride like this because of times being pushed.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> As is every one of my posts. It could happen to any of us, Strava or not. We've all come around a blind corner going to fast. I brought up Strava because of his wife's statements. If it was Strava then it speaks volumes in how some abuse it without regard for other trail users. You can't beat your time or anyone else's unless you are balls out flying, blind corners or not.


I wasn't specifically talking about you. I saw it mentioned a few times above as I was skimming. We go hard when we get onto our bikes. That's the norm for us xc folks.

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> The point is if it was used it speaks volumes of how some abuse it. I think you got the point but felt the need to twist what I said.


Not twisting your point at all, was responding to it verbatim. I'm not saying Mr. Treat wasn't using Strava, he probably was but that still wouldn't say *anything* about how some others may abuse it. If Treat did have the Strava app running it's irrelevant to the accident without more facts, and I doubt more facts will be forthcoming.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

We all want to live a healthy life until we're 92 and then die peacefully in our sleep but few are lucky enough to do so. It's always the hardest on family and loved ones and going out early is tragic but not uncommon, however there are worse ways to go than while doing something you love. A salute to Mr. Treat, Life well lived!

If I succumb to a fatal trail disaster involving a bear or lion I hope someone starts a thread about me and says something like- "That J.B. might have been a few cards short of a deck but at least he went down like a boss and had a smile on his face until his final few breaths!"


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

J.B. Weld said:


> We all want to live a healthy life until we're 92 and then die peacefully in our sleep but few are lucky enough to do so. It's always the hardest on family and loved ones and going out early is tragic but not uncommon, however there are worse ways to go than while doing something you love. A salute to Mr. Treat, Life well lived!
> 
> If I succumb to a fatal trail disaster involving a bear or lion I hope someone starts a thread about me and says something like- "That J.B. might have been a few cards short of a deck but at least he went down like a boss and had a smile on his face until his final few breaths!"


I agree whole heartedly, he died doing what he loved to do. I just came back from a ride and this incident weighed heavy on my mind. I'm always aware of my surroundings but this ride I was hyper sensitive. I spooked up a heard of 6 deer and my instincts were to look behind them for an approaching mountain lion. This trail I ride has a good population of black bear and mountain lion sightings. Riding in Grizzly country I think I'd be strapped with bear spray and a sidearm.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Riding in Grizzly country I think I'd be strapped with bear spray and a sidearm.


You get used to it. You ride in groups and remember to make noise. Some areas have much more activity than others. Most places I ride have yielded grizzly DNA from hair snags, but they're just passing through.

This is the only reason I complain about lack of bottle cage bosses on frames. Water bottle cages are the best place to carry bear spray. Crashing with a bear spray canister strapped to your body makes a bad day for you and your whole group.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Jayem said:


> One of the basic rules we have riding in bear-country is that everyone carries bear-spray. It's not so much that you'd be able to spray the bear that surprise-attacks you from the side of the trail, but more so that you can help out someone in your group being attacked by a bear, and of course if they charge you with enough distance for you to react. It also needs to be accessible fast. I've had to use it when cornered by a moose (which are usually far more dangerous on the whole than bears).
> 
> The other thing is bells, the times when I did find bears in the middle of the trail last summer, they were already moving/running away by the time I came around the corner, IMO because of the bear bells we use.


I agree with this statement.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Sorry for the merge confusion, but we really only need one thread per topic on this site, cross posting is expressly forbidden in the site guidelines. I probably should of just closed the newer thread in passion and linked it here.... but I did not think about that until the merge was complete.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> x2^ Critiquing someone unable to defend themselves is bad form. Condolences to his friends and family.


Do yourself a favor and don't venture onto any SCUBA forum. It's a given that if you die while diving you're going to be a case study.

There's nothing malicious about pointing out behaviors and choices without attacking the person. It's how word spreads and community members learn to not repeat unfortunate mistakes. If the discussion helps prevent a similar tragedy in the future it was a discussion worth having.

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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Riding in Grizzly country I think I'd be strapped with bear spray and a sidearm.


Remember that brown bears are big with thick skulls and tough muscles/sinew. They recommend at least a .44mag with 300gr rounds, which is a pretty bulky weapon. Most of the guides use a bigger weapon. You also need it in a chest-holster so you can get to it quickly and easily and so it won't become separated from you. Otherwise, take the bear spray and take more stuff that you might actually need, like a SPOT tracker, stuff to make fire with, etc.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Double post


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Jayem said:


> Remember that brown bears are big with thick skulls and tough muscles/sinew. They recommend at least a .44mag with 300gr rounds, which is a pretty bulky weapon. You also need it in a chest-holster so you can get to it quickly and easily and so it won't become separated from you. Otherwise, take the bear spray and take more stuff that you might actually need, like a SPOT tracker, stuff to make fire with, etc.


I understand that, I come from a major hunting family. My point is that the spray would be for my self defense and the gun to save my unfortunate friend being attacked. In reality a gun would in most cases be a worthless anchor while riding. Especially one of a worthy caliber. I'm sure I would end up not carrying a gun of that weight but the spray would definitely be holsered or on the bike. Someone mentioned a bottle cage being a perfect spot. Maybe both spots would be the best choice in Griz country.

I'm glad we've got two threads merged together now. Talk about confusion for someone new entering.ut:


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I understand that, I come from a major hunting family. My point is that the spray would be for my self defense and the gun to save my unfortunate friend being attacked. In reality a gun would in most cases be a worthless anchor while riding. Especially one of a worthy caliber. I'm sure I would end up not carrying a gun of that weight but the spray would definitely be holsered or on the bike. Someone mentioned a bottle cage being a perfect spot. Maybe both spots would be the best choice in Griz country.
> 
> I'm glad we've got two threads merged together now. Talk about confusion for someone new entering.ut:


Screw that, I'm spraying the bear AND my friend with the bear spray. Thinking you are going to hit a moving target hovering over your friend all hyped up on adrenaline is a stupid move IMO. Better to have the "mass destruction" weapon at that point, which won't kill your friend.

Also, we have mounts for the bear spray that go across our handlebars, or vertically from the handlebars, or yes, also on bottle mounts.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Jayem said:


> Screw that, I'm spraying the bear AND my friend with the bear spray. Thinking you are going to hit a moving target hovering over your friend all hyped up on adrenaline is a stupid move IMO. Better to have the "mass destruction" weapon at that point, which won't kill your friend.
> 
> Also, we have mounts for the bear spray that go across our handlebars, or vertically from the handlebars, or yes, also on bottle mounts.


True, one forgets how fast an attack like this goes down.


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## Coal-Cracker (May 4, 2010)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> True, one forgets how fast an attack like this goes down.


I understand it was Hollywood, but after watching The Revenant I have an overly heightened respect of Brown/Grizzly Bears.
That attack was intense.

(As an aside, the story that movie was based on was just as impressive had they kept to the actual historical events.)

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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Bear spray for sure in this circumstance. I'm thinking I would only shoot a bear with a shotgun slug or high powered rifle. Shooting a high powered, heavy, revolver accurately is a skill most people will simply never master, especially under duress. The guy that mentioned his 9mm...well good luck with that.

I'd also add this bear had been anesthetized and probed. While it's not a topic of conversation, conditioned animals are more dangerous.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

They took DNA samples of the bears fur he left behind. They determined he was caught in 2006 and vitals taken. He never was recaptured again nor did he ever have any conflicts with humans. At the time of this event the bear was 20 years old. He kept to his own and avoided human conflict. They never caught the bear. So he's still out there being a bear. He was impacted by the bike. He took care of the threat and moved on. He didn't prey upon or consume anything. They determined Treat hit the bear at full speed still clipped in and flew over the bears back. Breaking both wrists. His buddy without a sidearm couldn't do anything without falling victim himself. Taking off for help was the best decision to save his own life.

Read this study on this attack. It sheds a bit more light on it.

Review of grizzly attack raises warnings for mountain bikers | Local | missoulian.com


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Jayem said:


> Remember that brown bears are big with thick skulls and tough muscles/sinew. They recommend at least a .44mag with 300gr rounds, which is a pretty bulky weapon. Most of the guides use a bigger weapon. You also need it in a chest-holster so you can get to it quickly and easily and so it won't become separated from you. Otherwise, take the bear spray and take more stuff that you might actually need, like a SPOT tracker, stuff to make fire with, etc.


 Weight of something like that? 5 lbs? More?


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

WHALENARD said:


> The guy that mentioned his 9mm...well good luck with that.


While I don't disagree, I found this this very interesting. 9mm hard cast + lots of luck = dead grizz.

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Steve71 said:


> While I don't disagree, I found this this very interesting. 9mm hard cast + lots of luck = dead grizz.
> 
> https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/


It all depends on shot placement. Same reason you can shoot a hog in the head with a high caliber and he shakes it off but right behind the ear with a .22 and it's game over.

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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Steve71 said:


> While I don't disagree, I found this this very interesting. 9mm hard cast + lots of luck = dead grizz.
> 
> https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/


Sure, there are allways exceptions. Bella Twin killed a world record grizzly with a single .22 in 1953. Likewise there are many documented accounts of people emptying there gun into a grizzly only to get mauled and the bear may die hours later. Grizzly's were named in part to their gnarly temperament, I think the odds of shooting a bear at close range and surviving are not in favor of the shooter.


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

Yep, shot placement (also called luck, when it involves a charging bear) and lets not forget bullet selection. Hard cast FTW.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

While I agree it normally takes a large caliber bullet placed in the right location on a Grizzly Bear. It's not unheard of to hit one just right with a small caliber or even an arrow and kill one.

Grizzly Bears once roamed Colorado but have been extinct from the state since the 50's. Until an Elk hunter happened upon the last known Grizzly in the state in 1979. It attacked him and he managed to stab it twice with an arrow. One hit the right spot in the Bears neck and it blead to death. It was later confirmed to be a Grizzly Bear and the last confirmed one in the state.

Man Recounts A Fight For Life With Colorado's Last Grizzly « CBS Denver


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

There are a few news reports on the web of brown bear attacks being stopped with even the small 9mm. What matters is muzzle velocity and sectional density. A 147grain FMJ is just fine; having 17 to send also helps. See Hill People Gear for a good chest pouch.


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## muddytire (Aug 27, 2009)

leeboh said:


> Weight of something like that? 5 lbs? More?


Model 629 .44 mag with a cylinder of full house 240 grain lead bullets comes in at 3 lbs, 4 oz.

image-6 by s s, on Flickr

If you really want to step up in power (and reduce follow up shot speed) you could go with something like a .460 S&W mag which weighs in at 5 lbs, 14 oz with a cylinder of 300 grain hollow points and a full house magnum load of powder pushing them.

image-7 by s s, on Flickr

It's also important to note that these are full size frames in the pictures. Smaller versions are available, but none are super light. In larger calibers the weight is your friend because it soaks up some of the punishing recoil before it hammers your hands. Like anything else in life, it's a game of trade offs.

Don't tell the wife I've got guns on her food scale. And due to the toxicity of lead, and the generally evil nature of inanimate objects like guns, the pictures themselves are likely illegal in California, New York, and Maryland. View at your own risk.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

tuckerjt07 said:


> It all depends on shot placement. Same reason you can shoot a hog in the head with a high caliber and he shakes it off but right behind the ear with a .22 and it's game over.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


This is completely insane in the backcountry. The one-off chance that you'll be able to hit a moving target in exactly the place necessary and hit the exact nerves necessary to completely disable a bear with a small low-energy caliber is basically a one in a million shot. I shot and killed a turkey (which we later ate) on my property when I was growing up with a pellet gun and head-shot from a good range. A turkey isn't an 800lb mass charging you though and I had plenty of time to set up and take my shot. I would say someone taking a small caliber into the backcountry with the idea they they are going to do something like this is completely insane and irresponsible. The idea that "i'd rather have some kind of gun" is just dumb. I'm absolutely not against firearms, but unless you are going to use the right tool for the job, that weight is far better spent on things that you may actually need and may actually be useful (you know, the 'I'd rather have it and not need it'-stuff).

True story, a couple years ago in the hills above town someone felt threatened by a bear and unloaded a full magazine out of a 5.56 AR. Bear didn't die right way, took something like 4-6hr if I recall correctly. Those are very high velocity rounds, but they fragment and those fragments just don't carry enough energy for deep penetration that is necessary with the tough skin/meat/bone of a bear. The same rounds can significantly mess up a human due to them being a much "softer" target, the fragments cause a massive wound channel.

This is kind of like the debates people get into on the auto boards, where you are talking about some place that experiences a heavy winter with snow or ice on the ground for extended periods of time. There's always at least one person that makes sure to let everyone know they run slicks on rear-wheel drive on ice-lakes and they do "just fine" all winter. Yes, there have been one-in-a-million shots, but taking that chance is pretty irresponsible. Use the right weapon or bring stuff in it's place that might actually be useful and have a higher chance of being used.

Watch some of the riding videos where riders were chased/charged by bears. That ain't about shot placement, that's about not even enough time to react, let alone reach for a weapon. This is why we try to ride in pairs with bear-spray and at the very least have the bear spray easily accessible.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

^^100% agree.
Hit a Grizzly in a spot that's not a kill zone with any caliber is just going to piss him off more. Bear spray is the best defense in Griz country. These attacks happen in an instant, getting a sidearm un-holstered and aimed correctly to a kill spot at an 800 lb charging Bear who can run as fast as a race horse, good luck. Bear spray covers a wide spread area and your chances of hitting him in the face are way higher.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Jayem said:


> This is completely insane in the backcountry. The one-off chance that you'll be able to hit a moving target in exactly the place necessary and hit the exact nerves necessary to completely disable a bear with a small low-energy caliber is basically a one in a million shot. I shot and killed a turkey (which we later ate) on my property when I was growing up with a pellet gun and head-shot from a good range. A turkey isn't an 800lb mass charging you though and I had plenty of time to set up and take my shot. I would say someone taking a small caliber into the backcountry with the idea they they are going to do something like this is completely insane and irresponsible. The idea that "i'd rather have some kind of gun" is just dumb. I'm absolutely not against firearms, but unless you are going to use the right tool for the job, that weight is far better spent on things that you may actually need and may actually be useful (you know, the 'I'd rather have it and not need it'-stuff).
> 
> True story, a couple years ago in the hills above town someone felt threatened by a bear and unloaded a full magazine out of a 5.56 AR. Bear didn't die right way, took something like 4-6hr if I recall correctly. Those are very high velocity rounds, but they fragment and those fragments just don't carry enough energy for deep penetration that is necessary with the tough skin/meat/bone of a bear. The same rounds can significantly mess up a human due to them being a much "softer" target, the fragments cause a massive wound channel.
> 
> ...


Ok, if you can show me where I was advocating for such I'd love to see it.

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## Mr. Doom (Sep 23, 2005)

Tinymountain said:


> So sad. Neither of them had bear spray, firearms or cell phone? I don't live in grizzly country but it seems like you would want to carry at least 2 of those everywhere. Hang some bells off your bars too.


This area is not unlike any forested area in Montana and right next to the city of West Glacier.

He was riding in his backyard and a mile away from what is basically a freeway that time of year, surrounded by campgrounds with hundreds of RV guests and commercial daily equestrian groups on the trail. He spent hundreds of hours running and biking on the trail and never had a close encounter with a bear. I have ripped around on the same trails for 20 years and never had a close encounter either. We do chase bears out of the garden and have Grizz trapped and removed by fish and game if they stick around for long in the neighborhood.

This study is garbage IMO and hints of victim blaming, saying he was traveling a reckless speed was BS as he would have been expecting a bunch of horses and inexperienced greenhorns on them, you come to expect those users if you ride those trails often as they are often chewed up by hooves and covered with trail apples.

Seriously, was a freak accident and something like this could happen to anyone who gets out of bed in the morning Statistically, you are far more likely to trip and hit your head than get mauled by a bear on the trail. RIP Brad, going to miss all your work clearing the trails this spring.


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## Mr. Doom (Sep 23, 2005)

HPIguy said:


> I started to post something in the other thread, but left it alone. I looked up that trail on Trailforks, and it's a bi-directional multi use trail. He could have hit someone's kid, an elderly person, etc. It's irresponsible, and self entitled, period. I'm sorry the guy lost his life over it, and I feel for his family and friends, but still. Also, there are lots of apps out there now to track your performance, not just Strava. It's just the most popular. I use it too, but in a responsible manner.


Come ride the trail, it is not technical singletrack and much of the use is from equestrian traffic. Think doubbletrack and fitreoads, he was riding with someone who had never been on a MTN Bike before and introducing them to the sport, not going to be breaking strava records that day. All this speculation and victum blaming is nonsense.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> ^^100% agree.
> Hit a Grizzly in a spot that's not a kill zone with any caliber is just going to piss him off more. Bear spray is the best defense in Griz country. These attacks happen in an instant, getting a sidearm un-holstered and aimed correctly to a kill spot at an 800 lb charging Bear who can run as fast as a race horse, good luck. Bear spray covers a wide spread area and your chances of hitting him in the face are way higher.


 Sorry if we are veering OT here. Gun not much of use? Not a hunter or gun guy. A bear is running at you or even just on all fours. Head shot? Middle of chest? Behind the shoulder shot? And how many can you fire? 2-3 shots before the bear is eating you? Accurate shot with say an 8" barrel, 75 ft? So, seems pepper spray is the answer here, yes?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

leeboh said:


> Sorry if we are veering OT here. Gun not much of use? Not a hunter or gun guy. A bear is running at you or even just on all fours. Head shot? Middle of chest? Behind the shoulder shot? And how many can you fire? 2-3 shots before the bear is eating you? Accurate shot with say an 8" barrel, 75 ft? So, seems pepper spray is the answer here, yes?


8" barrel is a very long barrel and for a larger, fast caliber it's going to be accurate much further than 25 yards.

The issue comes down to physiology and psychology. The kill zones on a bear are small due to muscle and bone structure. Now those zones are moving unpredictably and you're in a heightened state. It's going to be sheer luck to hit them.

Animals don't have the stop and assess the damage instinct that humans do. They jump straight into flight or fight. An example is it is not uncommon for a deer that has had its heart and both lungs destroyed on a clean pass through to run upwards of a hundred yards. They just run where a human stops for those precious moments that prevents the body from letting adrenaline fully take over. A bear falls under the scenario of it could be a fatal shot but if not instantly fatal it muals you to death just on sheer adrenaline before it succumbs to its injuries.

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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

Mr. Doom said:


> Come ride the trail, it is not technical singletrack and much of the use is from equestrian traffic. Think doubbletrack and fitreoads, he was riding with someone who had never been on a MTN Bike before and introducing them to the sport, not going to be breaking strava records that day. All this speculation and victum blaming is nonsense.


I'm not speculating, I'm going off of the report that was released. They estimated his speed at 20-25mph into a blind corner on a multi directional, multi use trail. That's a bad idea, regardless of bears for the reasons I already stated. I also did not bring up Strava, someone else did.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

HPIguy said:


> I'm not speculating, I'm going off of the report that was released.


I question that information, it's possible that the speed was verified but it sounds more like an estimate derived from the investigating officer and Brad Treats friend. The accident scene looks pretty flat in the pic and anyone who rides much knows that anything over 20mph on flattish terrain is absolutely flying. Given that Treat was apparently riding with a friend who was a beginning rider and at the time only about 20 yards behind him it's hard to imagine they were traveling that fast. Not saying it isn't a possibility but it just doesn't seem likely.

At any rate I do agree with Mr. Doom, especially about the victim blaming.


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## Mr. Doom (Sep 23, 2005)

The "review" was done by non-cyclist who may have a political motivation in insinuating that Brad was traveling at a "high rate speed" for the conditions. Using the opinion of someone who had never been on a mountaion bike a day in their life as evidence of reckless behavior is fairly subjective and balloney IMO. He was not ripping down the trail any faster than any one of us would and probably alot slower having to wait for someone who was on their first MTN bike ride. The whole narrative being twisted to bolster a anti-biker agenda is something that needs to be considered with this story.


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## jonz50 (Jun 10, 2011)

For sure a sad event. It was all over the news in Montana right when it happened. I hope threads like this don't bring any more grief to his friends and family.

Just for info for those considering riding in grizzly country. I live and ride for half the year near West Yellowstone, MT. I average about 1 grizzly encounter per year on the trails. I see plenty of evidence of them on the trails I ride.

1) I always have a bear bell on my bike and use it. I picked out the loudest one I could find. Still, I think it's only loud enough for slow climbs and maybe level spots where my speed is not high.

2) I ALWAYS carry bear spray. I used to carry it in a holster on my hip belt for my hydration pack but when I startled a grizzly in a meadow behind a log, it ran partly towards me and then across the trail I was riding to get to some trees for cover. It was in the trees before I could get the spray out. Now I carry it with the holster zip tied to my handle bars (one punctured last year after a couple seasons of banging around on my bars) or in a holder designed to fit into a water bottle holder (Bear Spray Water Bottle Mount For Bikes fits 7.9oz/ 225g only: UDAP Pepper Power). The holder is a little slower than I like so I'm experimenting with different ways of carrying it.

3) Guns. I carry one. I was a cop for 26 years and practiced shooting a lot. I own a pistol big enough to hunt bears but I don't carry that one when riding because it's too big and heavy. And even if I did carry that pistol when riding, bear spray would still be my first choice in a bear encounter. Grizzly bears many times do a bluff charge. Want to turn a bluff charge into a real charge - shoot a gun at the bear. Bear spray works well in that scenario. 
http://www.bearspray.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/sprayvsbullets.pdf

3) Speed - I always ride downhills with the idea a bear is going to pop out of the brush in front of me. Less sight distance = less speed. Usually during my first few weeks of riding up in Montana, I have the same nightmare a few times where a bear pops his head up out of the waist high brush at the same spot on my regular trail. That vision helps me control my speed. Because I don't think my bell is loud enough in some places and situations, I sing. Loudly. Early in the season last year, I alerted a grizzly on the trail ahead of me with my singing and thankfully, he/she fled off the trail into the forest.

Lastly, it took 9 months for this report to come out. 9 months. That is a long time and I'm sure all the facts were available long before that. Based on my experience in government with reports of a sensitive nature, that report went up and down the chain of command many times before it was released. Many people had input. I'm sure some risk management for the agencies that supervised the land/trail and who did the investigation. The report wording was carefully chosen. As an example, what is the definition of a blind corner - you can only see 10', 20', 30', etc.? What is a safe speed for that particular blind corner? Was the bear standing there when he hit it or did it run in front of him? Some of this stuff can't be known, some isn't addressed, and to cast aspersions on the rider that died with incomplete knowledge of the exact situation at the time of the accident is in poor taste at best.


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## jonz50 (Jun 10, 2011)

Mr. Doom said:


> The "review" was done by non-cyclist who may have a political motivation in insinuating that Brad was traveling at a "high rate speed" for the conditions. Using the opinion of someone who had never been on a mountaion bike a day in their life as evidence of reckless behavior is fairly subjective and balloney IMO. He was not ripping down the trail any faster than any one of us would and probably alot slower having to wait for someone who was on their first MTN bike ride. The whole narrative being twisted to bolster a anti-biker agenda is something that needs to be considered with this story.


Exactly.


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

That's a good point about the political motivation. And as I stated in my first post, I'm truly sorry he lost his life over this incident.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Mr. Doom said:


> The whole narrative being twisted to bolster a anti-biker agenda is something that needs to be considered with this story.


That was certainly the impression I got upon reading it. Frankly found it odd the incident was used this way in an official capacity as it was in the article. Good to get a locals perspective.


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## Mr. Doom (Sep 23, 2005)

jonz50 said:


> For sure a sad event. It was all over the news in Montana right when it happened. I hope threads like this don't bring any more grief to his friends and family.
> 
> Just for info for those considering riding in grizzly country. I live and ride for half the year near West Yellowstone, MT. I average about 1 grizzly encounter per year on the trails. I see plenty of evidence of them on the trails I ride.
> 
> ...


If you read the report it emphasizes that Brad was traveling at a high rate of speed. I can take you to the spot that I have ridden hundreds of times and you can be the judge of whether unreasonably high speeds were even possible. We do have many actual MTN bike trails here in the Flathead valley that my neighbor Brad and I could get hauling on, this is not one of them. As far as bias look at the board of review members. A Grizzly bear specialist, two wildlife biologists, adjunct professor from the department of ecosystem and conservation science and this district ranger. just saying









If agencies try to use Brads death and this incident to enforce 10-15mph speed limits on forest service land I think it will do a great disservice to the sport we love, I know Brad would be pissed about groups politicizing this.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

jonz50 said:


> For sure a sad event. It was all over the news in Montana right when it happened. I hope threads like this don't bring any more grief to his friends and family.
> 
> Just for info for those considering riding in grizzly country. I live and ride for half the year near West Yellowstone, MT. I average about 1 grizzly encounter per year on the trails. I see plenty of evidence of them on the trails I ride.
> 
> ...


Great write up with some great points. Thanks for putting a lot of this scenario in perspective.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

I think the points being made about "victim blaming" are good reminders that we should be careful to not always take what we read at face value. The report may be accurate: the man was careless. Or, maybe there's more to the story, and he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or something in between. Whatever happened, we need not judge.

But not knowing doesn't mean we shouldn't remind ourselves to not go fast into blind turns, and to prepare for bears when in bear country.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Gasp4Air said:


> But not knowing doesn't mean we shouldn't remind ourselves to not go fast into blind turns, and to prepare for bears when in bear country.


From this day forward:
If I lived and rode in Griz country, this ^ would be framed and hung above my toilet. Before each ride I'd be forced to face reality of possible encounters. It's irresponsible to ride in Griz habitat and not take the necessary precautions. It may not save you but at least you'd have a better chance if an unfortunate encounter did happen.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

muddytire said:


> And now we know why it's called a bunny hop, and not a bear hop.


Badabing! And for the haters, if it had been me good that somebody learns and some get humor out of it...so meh. 



Jayem said:


> One of the basic rules we have riding in bear-country is that everyone carries bear-spray. It's not so much that you'd be able to spray the bear that surprise-attacks you from the side of the trail, but more so that you can help out someone in your group being attacked by a bear, and of course if they charge you with enough distance for you to react. It also needs to be accessible fast. I've had to use it when cornered by a moose (which are usually far more dangerous on the whole than bears).
> 
> The other thing is bells, the times when I did find bears in the middle of the trail last summer, they were already moving/running away by the time I came around the corner, IMO because of the bear bells we use.


Yep yep yep.



Schulze said:


> Wow, it would be hard to bring my 9 to bear with two broken wrists. Pretty much a nightmare situation.


Bah, better bring a whole lot more than ma nine for a bear lol, pass the pepper spray instead, it's harder to miss and I've read a thousand stories about the hunter emptying his rounds into a startled bear, who then mauled and usually killed the hunter.



J.B. Weld said:


> We all want to live a healthy life until we're 92 and then die peacefully in our sleep but few are lucky enough to do so. It's always the hardest on family and loved ones and going out early is tragic but not uncommon, however there are worse ways to go than while doing something you love. A salute to Mr. Treat, Life well lived!


Reverend! (See movie Blazing Saddles for those who don't get it) 



tuckerjt07 said:


> Do yourself a favor and don't venture onto any SCUBA forum. It's a given that if you die while diving you're going to be a case study.
> 
> There's nothing malicious about pointing out behaviors and choices without attacking the person. It's how word spreads and community members learn to not repeat unfortunate mistakes. If the discussion helps prevent a similar tragedy in the future it was a discussion worth having.


Yes.



Jayem said:


> Remember that brown bears are big with thick skulls and tough muscles/sinew. They recommend at least a .44mag with 300gr rounds, which is a pretty bulky weapon. Most of the guides use a bigger weapon. You also need it in a chest-holster so you can get to it quickly and easily and so it won't become separated from you. Otherwise, take the bear spray and take more stuff that you might actually need, like a SPOT tracker, stuff to make fire with, etc.


X2



Mr. Doom said:


> The "review" was done by non-cyclist who may have a political motivation in insinuating that Brad was traveling at a "high rate speed" for the conditions. Using the opinion of someone who had never been on a mountain bike a day in their life as evidence of reckless behavior is fairly subjective and balloney IMO. He was not ripping down the trail any faster than any one of us would and probably alot slower having to wait for someone who was on their first MTN bike ride. The whole narrative being twisted to bolster a anti-biker agenda is something that needs to be considered with this story.


Excellent point.



jonz50 said:


> For sure a sad event. It was all over the news in Montana right when it happened. I hope threads like this don't bring any more grief to his friends and family.
> 
> Just for info for those considering riding in grizzly country. I live and ride for half the year near West Yellowstone, MT. I average about 1 grizzly encounter per year on the trails. I see plenty of evidence of them on the trails I ride.
> 
> ...


Very well stated in all aspects and this proves that I'm not alone singing out loud whatever song pops into ma head while riding alone and coming across freshly chewed deer legs and/or the hairs on the back of my neck standing up while climbing a slow grinder section.



Mr. Doom said:


> If you read the report it emphasizes that Brad was traveling at a high rate of speed. I can take you to the spot that I have ridden hundreds of times and you can be the judge of whether unreasonably high speeds were even possible. We do have many actual MTN bike trails here in the Flathead valley that my neighbor Brad and I could get hauling on, this is not one of them. As far as bias look at the board of review members. A Grizzly bear specialist, two wildlife biologists, adjunct professor from the department of ecosystem and conservation science and this district ranger. just saying
> 
> View attachment 1125936
> 
> ...


Wow....I've had several encounters with these kinda haters on our trails and they only have one agenda...their own and that is to rid all trails of anybody but horse shitting, trail stomping arses.

O ya, RIP Mister Treat, at least died doing what he loved.


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## JuanGrande (Apr 6, 2015)

This is simply a tragic event. So awful.
Everyone is discussing speed as if this was the sole cause of his untimely death. I honestly don't think it would have mattered if the guy was going 15mph or 25mph around that corner. If he was going 15mph he still would have startled the bear and, in all likelihood, the bear would have came after him and attacked him as he would have only been able to stop a few feet shy of the bear. You think a grizzly bear that is scared (threatened in their mind) wouldn't run 20 or 30 feet to eliminate a threat? Please. 
The only things that may have saved his life would have been a gun or possibly if the rider that was attacked had bear spray. I don't think his friend could have done anything other than fire a bullet into the bear that would have saved his friend and even that may have just pissed off the bear. It takes a big gun to put a bear down and when they are in fight or flight mode they usually don't retreat. If his friend had become involved we would probably be reading about two dead riders. This is just a sad reality. 
Sadly, I don't think there's much chance he was unconscious when this attack occurred.



DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I'm pretty sure he meant his buddy that was behind him didn't have a cell phone, not the pore guy being attacked. He had to run through the woods and to the road for help. Apparently the motorist that picked him up didn't have a cell phone or there was no service which is the more likely scenario. Either way the guy never had a chance and his buddy had no chance at saving his friend without being killed himself. Very tragic and not a good idea to ride Strava times in thick forested Grizzly bear country.
> 
> I found this study to be very interesting.
> 
> ...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

JuanGrande said:


> This is simply a tragic event. So awful.
> Everyone is discussing speed as if this was the sole cause of his untimely death. I honestly don't think it would have mattered if the guy was going 15mph or 25mph around that corner. If he was going 15mph he still would have startled the bear and, in all likelihood, the bear would have came after him and attacked him as he would have only been able to stop a few feet shy of the bear. You think a grizzly bear that is scared (threatened in their mind) wouldn't run 20 or 30 feet to eliminate a threat? Please.
> The only things that may have saved his life would have been a gun or possibly if the rider that was attacked had bear spray. I don't think his friend could have done anything other than fire a bullet into the bear that would have saved his friend and even that may have just pissed off the bear. It takes a big gun to put a bear down and when they are in fight or flight mode they usually don't retreat. If his friend had become involved we would probably be reading about two dead riders. This is just a sad reality.
> Sadly, I don't think there's much chance he was unconscious when this attack occurred.


I think in this scenario you are right. An unfortunate event that could of happened to anyone. Speed or not, coming around a blind corner to a Griz your chances of not being attacked is pretty high. Slamming into the bear at full speed or hitting your brakes and stopping just shy of him you're pretty much going to be attacked in either scenario. A tragic event that future riders in Griz country can learn by. A bear bell, pepper spray and even a sidearm easily accessible. But as stated a sidearm of worthy caliber to kill a Griz is a heavy gun to ride a bike with. At the least a bear bell and pepper spray should be part of the riding apparel.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

What happens when an equestrian encounters a grizzly?

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

andytiedye said:


> What happens when an equestrian encounters a grizzly?
> 
> Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


Totally different scenario, more noise, more scent, etc so it's harder to surpise. Also, the horse, especially with a mounted human, is a much larger, therefore imposing presence than a hiker or biker. Also an equestrian can carry more protection in a much more easily accessible manner.

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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

That assumes that the rider is able to stay on the horse. The horse may have other ideas.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

andytiedye said:


> That assumes that the rider is able to stay on the horse. The horse may have other ideas.
> 
> Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


In that case the bear is probably headed the other way. When the horse rears, and almost assuredly, whinnies in terror it's now a HUGE and extremely vocal being to the bear. The bear is most likely not accustomed to horses.

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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

andytiedye said:


> That assumes that the rider is able to stay on the horse. The horse may have other ideas.
> 
> Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


And considering a Grizzly can run as fast as a race horse you best be on a race horse.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> And considering a Grizzly can run as fast as a race horse you best be on a race horse.


It's not going to come after the horse except for very rare exceptions, protecting young, fresh kill, already pissed. The protecting young scenario isn't likely due to the aforementioned sights and smells of the horse.

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

andytiedye said:


> What happens when an equestrian encounters a grizzly?


Not a horsie expert but I'm pretty sure a horse would smell and react to a grizzly long before they met so it wouldn't be a surprise.


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## muddytire (Aug 27, 2009)

andytiedye said:


> What happens when an equestrian encounters a grizzly?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

tuckerjt07 said:


> It's not going to come after the horse except for very rare exceptions, protecting young, fresh kill, already pissed. The protecting young scenario isn't likely due to the aforementioned sights and smells of the horse.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Yes I know that. Just saying how fast that species of bear can run, that's all.


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## muddytire (Aug 27, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Not a horsie expert but I'm pretty sure a horse would smell and react to a grizzly long before they met so it wouldn't be a surprise.


Little known fact: horses are the only natural predator of the grizzly bear. Ever wonder why horses now occupy all the historic range of grizzly? Now you know.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

andytiedye said:


> What happens when an equestrian encounters a grizzly?


Horses are smart. They know they're faster than the schmuck about to be ejected off their backside.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Yes I know that. Just saying how fast that species of bear can run, that's all.


In a sprint/charge, but bears don't take down things like horses and antelopes because that takes endurance AND speed. They will take small, sick or juvenile moose at times, but moose act like they are drunk at all times.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Fleas said:


> Bike collision with grizzly bear killed Forest Service cop
> 
> -F


Thread title is misleading. It was not a bear "attack". The bear neutralized what it perceived as a threat. If a ~200# missile came plowing into you at ~20 mph you'd react defensively too.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Jayem said:


> In a sprint/charge, but bears don't take down things like horses and antelopes because that takes endurance AND speed. They will take small, sick or juvenile moose at times, but moose act like they are drunk at all times.


Once again I know. Jeez I say one response to the speed of a Grizzly and I'm burned at the stake. I know wildlife and how they act, I'm trying to school a few in here that are afraid of their own shadow.


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