# Don't Ask, Don't Tell: A Common Trail Scenario...



## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Since I started mountain biking...I've seen several examples of existing trail systems that (after some poking around) are clearly in the* "don't ask, don't tell"* category.

By *"don't ask, don't tell"* I'm referring to "social trails" and other trail networks that have simply appeared over the years in a given area..._without_ the explicit understanding/agreement/approval of the landowner...but also which have avoided the scrutiny or disapproval of the landowner.

Some might just call these "bootleg" trails...but to me, "bootleg" suggests a higher degree of "trail piracy"-in other words, I think a lot of bootleg trails might not even be known to the landowner...whereas the situation I'm talking about is where the landowner probably knows what's going on...but (for whatever reason) just isn't motivated to address it-and probably feels that if things aren't getting bad (if they're not hearing complaints) then it's not worth making a big deal about.

To me, "don't ask, don't tell" trails are a challenge: how do you maintain and improve these trails in an organized way (e.g. for the long-term sustainability of the trails) without increasing the attention the whole situation gets?

For example, would you organize a full-blown trail maintenance day-complete with a dozen people, wheelbarrows, tools, etc.-on a "don't ask, don't tell" trail system? Or would you worry that your work could all be for nothing?

Another question is...what if you decide to go to the landowner with the intent of formalizing the trail system? Are you risking the wrath of landowner who never really liked the trails in the first place and could decide to shut them down? Or are you putting the best foot forward and demonstrating responsibility to a receptive landowner?

Thoughts?

Scott

PS - I was prompted to make this post after just discovering a "don't ask, don't tell" trail network very close to my home (near Winchester, VA) that is located on land owned by a civil war battlefield preservation trust. In fact, I don't know for certain that the trails aren't approved by the preservation trust...but I suspect it's a "don't ask, don't tell" situation because nobody in the area (none of the bike clubs, for example) claims ownership of the trails-they're "just there."

This particular trail system is already good...and could be GREAT with some maintenance and management (for example, some of the trails need to be closed because they've been ridden a lot soaking wet and have turned into mud bogs-filled with MTB tracks).


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I've dealt with a number of these on city land, and it all comes down to the landowner. Partly it's going to be about the mission of the management of land. Whether it is a recreational park or a preserve for starters. Attitude towards recreation is another thing, (recreation or preserve) plus whether they want to deal with discussioning it is all things to consider. 

I personally thing it's a mistake to do anything do one of these systems, ie, bring it above board, until you've got positive communication and support going for it. Otherwise, all your efforts can be in vain.


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## TunicaTrails (Jun 29, 2009)

I would worry that my work would be, as you said, all for nothing. It depends on the particular situation, but trail building is hard, hard work. 

By the way, the "don't ask don't tell" part, not off to the best start if you intend to keep it a secret


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Well...this particular trail system is definitely not a secret—among other things, it's listed (with photos) in Singletracks.com...and most MTBers in the area know about it. Plus the trails are used every day by walkers, joggers, dogwalkers, etc.

I'm in the process now of trying to find out who (if anyone) has worked on the MTB trails. I mean, *someone* had to at least rake-and-ride them originally...

Scott


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## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

*work within the trust*

It is highly likely that members of the Trust are also trail users. Talk to trail users (bikers, hikers, and trail runners), and try to find someone who is apart of the organization who owns the land. They may then be able to work from within the organization to legitimize the trails.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

What indy said. Start your efforts on the trails, ask about who manages and maintains. Eventually you'll hear about the right person/people and meet them, it may take months. If you rush to the LM to find out you might put them in an awkward place where they can't continue avoiding the issue, which might be bad if they're already quietly working with another group.

There are parks where the trail builders aren't affiliated and the LM doesn't have any formalities in place, and when an affiliated group or assoc. steps in they get offended quick b/c they're self policing and maintaining as they can. It can get scary if you show up with someone in a parks uniform and the "original" trail builders are there and feel threatened/like they're going to get in some serious trouble.

You'll get the lay of the land from there.


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## javaforce (Nov 12, 2006)

This is an interesting topic. From my experience once an official trail committee is formed for a trail or series of trails, the trail work is either halted or done at such a slow pace that nothing gets done.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Major works should be done by the builders, but general clean-up of branches etc should be done by all riders. No-one needs permission to do that.

Keep it secret, unless you want it to be over-run by hoards of careless, do nothing riders.

The OP needs to discuss his plans with the creator of the trail, no-one else, providing they are still in the area. Local riders should know who it is.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Since starting this topic...I've done a bunch of homework and discovered that the particular trail system I suspected of being a "don't ask, don't tell" trail is in fact under the stewardship of the local bike club (so that's good news).

In this case, the reason for the "dont ask, don't tell" appearance is that the club has deliberately tried to keep a low profile with this trail network because it's located on a Civil War battlefield...and there are a lot of sensitivities surrounding what is perceived by some as "hallowed ground."

So the bike club has been limited in what they can do and has had to tread carefully. Given all this, they've done a great job considering the trails that are there.

But I think the "don't ask, don't tell" topic is still a good one to discuss...because there are other trails in the area that are incredibly popular and definitely fall under this moniker.

Scott


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

As has been said. Spend time riding and get to know the familiar faces, sometimes we want to help out or think we're being responsible and do something against that particular park's patron trail gnome's wishes. You will meet the patron trail gnome eventually, stay in their good graces and get the lay of the land from them, especially at the lower key places.


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## hankthespacecowboy (Jun 10, 2004)

I like thefriar's advice of keepign things under the radar as much as possible. Making your efforts too public can backfire, as it is easier for landmanagers to simply shut down access than take on the risk/management burden of keeping them open. And as javaforce noted, creating a committee does not necessarily result in better trail conditions. 

I'm not familiar with your area, but I think the best thing to do would be to carry along your stealth trail tools of choice - folding shovel, folding saw, whatever spins your spurs, and do what you can on your own. With luck, your hard work will give you a good name to the land managers should it eventually drift up the grapevine to them. 

Joining the Chamber of Commerce, or other professional/social organizations can be a valuable networking tool to meet the landmanagers in a sort of roundabout way rather than dropping the "social trail" bomb right off the bat. No matter which tack you take, it takes time.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

*Yup - I agree...*

Sounds like your on the correct route.
As for non-authorized maintenance, when you are out riding, carry a brush saw and maybe a small folding shovel in the pack. If you come across deadfall - clear it up, or in the dirt - something that you can fix up in a few minutes or in a few "rides" - have at it - as long as you repair not build.

Keep us in the loop - interested to hear how things work out.

michael


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## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

Areas like this are almost always kept low-key, under the radar for a reason. Sometimes it's at the request of the owner or the builders. Sometimes, the land owner might know about the trails, but can't formally acknowledge them due to the usual liability issues. So, if there's no reason to get them involved, they won't get their knickers in a twist.

As friar said, the folks doing the work are the ones to ask about the proper protocol on the area.....not that I'd have any experience in such a thing. 

Cheers,
EB


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Some of you may have heard me talk about the trails I built for the local middle school bike club.

The trails are on land owned by a major logging company. The same company that bought Weyerhauser. The kids started out just riding the logging roads. Myself and one other person gradually built a system of about 15 miles of singletrack over a 10 year period.

About 5 years ago we got a phone call from the local PR lady from the logging company. She said she had heard we had a bunch of bike trails on their land and she wanted to come and see them, to see what the company could do to protect the trails.

We figured the jig was up, but we took her for a ride around the trails, carefully avoiding all the woodwork. She practically gave us the land to "maintain" the trails on. No new building. She knows that within 2 weeks of finishing a trail in this area, you can't tell if it's new or 10 years old.

It turns out that the manager of the company was in his doctors office a few weeks before and while the doctor had him in a very compromising position, he asked what the logging company was going to do to protect the kids' bike trails.

The doctor is in the local bike club which is a sponsor of the kids bike club.

I've taken the PR lady out a few times since then and showed her the woodwork I built. She loves it but she'll never admit that she's ever seen it.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Trail Ninja said:


> Some of you may have heard me talk about the trails I built for the local middle school bike club.
> 
> The trails are on land owned by a major logging company. The same company that bought Weyerhauser. The kids started out just riding the logging roads. Myself and one other person gradually built a system of about 15 miles of singletrack over a 10 year period.
> 
> ...


Great avatar.

Just goes to show that well planned trails 2 weeks old or 10 years can survive even with fancy wood work. :thumbsup:

One of my special projects here I'm attempting to incorporate some large rocks (size of a house large) rerouting the existing trail from a spring and rain runoff area to one that is substantially more sustainable. My issues are is that this section is 15 miles out from the nearest place where we can get a car. Second is that the trail is not used all that often so getting people riding a reroute might be more difficult. Any advice from the Ninja?


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

crux said:


> Great avatar.
> 
> Just goes to show that well planned trails 2 weeks old or 10 years can survive even with fancy wood work. :thumbsup:
> 
> One of my special projects here I'm attempting to incorporate some large rocks (size of a house large) rerouting the existing trail from a spring and rain runoff area to one that is substantially more sustainable. My issues are is that this section is 15 miles out from the nearest place where we can get a car. Second is that the trail is not used all that often so getting people riding a reroute might be more difficult. Any advice from the Ninja?


Since you asked. I don't have much advice but the one bit I can give you is to completely close the old trail. Don't just block the entrance and exit. People will work a way around the blockage. IMBA and the USFS both have some good literature on reclaiming old trails.

The absolute best way is to plant native species on the old trail along with covering the entire length with brush or rock or what ever you have available.

http://www.imbacanada.com/resources/trail-building/reclaiming-trails


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

This is a very touchy issue in my area. The trim as you go and do no harm approach is fine everywhere. 

Serious maintenance involving land managers, however, is time consuming, dicey and in terms of area, will be given approval in 1% of available land - maybe. In a lot of public areas, the entire concept of restricted access is thorny. Until someone comes up with a better argument than MTB trails interfere with the diurnal activities of local snails, sorry, but I rate human access above that in our otherwise systematically plundered world. 

So what do you do when you see trails degrading to the point where any sensible land manager may no longer ignore them? The only things that can justify significant trail closures, diversions and modifications seem to be:

Reduced risk to the land managers - illegal, dangerous and eroded trail presents legal exposure via incidental use.

Sustainability - Well designed trail makes the environment better. Fact is there must be use and need for a trail, because it exists in the first place. 

Quality - This implies continuing care. No baby grows to maturity without nurturing. Think how and where the trail will change over time before building it, but keep coming back to do work as needed. You can't close a dud trail and then let your new creation fail for lack of love. Trim as You Goers are not likely to be carrying trail rakes and shovels.

Complete closure of the old trail as TN says is essential. There's also nothing quite as cool as the looks on faces when a nice, long, new trail bypass appears out of the unknown in half a day.

Work everywhere - don't just build your new bits, repair the rest as you go. Sooner or later someone is going to have to have a chat with you. I'd rather be able to point out a bunch of simple things that have improved the general trail network and the land it's on, than stand with my gob open, breast feeding a shovel on a freshly raped, illegal construction zone.

In the end though, the chance to make something better is a good thing. The hardest part is the desire to bypass 100m of dead trail with 2km of new   trail.


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Here in my part of Pa we have a significant amount of trail access,park,state,city,and private,but the creme of the creme is thousands of acres of coal region land.these lands were pretty much devastated and significantly altered durning it's hey day most just sitting fallow for decades,had been pretty much the playground for dirt bikes and four wheelers for years.so you can imagine the milage of single,double track and unique features that this terrain offers and the great part is that these machines keep everything open and ridable for us mtb's who spend the time to learn the terrain and mostly untapped by mtb's here.being a dirt biker myself there is no easier way to make and break in a trail and have an open palette to do so,unique and something very free and unrestrained about this rare type of access,and am lucky and grateful to have all of this within an hours drive away.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Ridnparadise said:


> There's also nothing quite as cool as the looks on faces when a nice, long, new trail bypass appears out of the unknown in half a day.


Where I got the name from actually. I'd spend several months working on a section with no entrance or exit until it was completely finished. Then overnight, a mile or two of trail would "suddenly appear".


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

"_Where I got the name from actually. I'd spend several months working on a section with no entrance or exit until it was completely finished. Then overnight, a mile or two of trail would "suddenly appear"._"


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Trail Ninja said:


> Where I got the name from actually. I'd spend several months working on a section with no entrance or exit until it was completely finished. Then overnight, a mile or two of trail would "suddenly appear".


That's the only way to boogie.:thumbsup:


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## scottybinwv (Jun 29, 2010)

Looks like they missed an oppurtunity to fix some of their bogs over there when they did the trail work a month ago. They could of made several bridges with the logs they cut up.


If they do any more trail work there post it up or PM me and if I can fit it in I will come over and lend a hand. :thumbsup:


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## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

Stevob said:


> That's the only way to boogie.:thumbsup:


:yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:


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