# E bike making you a better rider?



## motoadve (Nov 14, 2004)

Long time Mt biker and former Pro Moto enduro racer.
Usually ride 4 times per week, now with the e bike that changed to 6 times per week.
Bought a Turbo Levo 2 weeks ago.
I Ride my regular Mt bike in the morning and the e bike in the afternoon.
Or make just an e bike ride triple in length and climb than my regular ride.

Takes discipline to ride my regular bike now, e bike is so much more fun.
But I have a bad knee and e bike dont work the quads as my regular bike, so I need to keep riding it.

E bike is cheating if you go slow, not compatible with regular Mt bikes, if you push it you work hard.


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## squashyo (Oct 28, 2003)

I imagine it will help you keep your downhill skills tuned up. I'm doing mad long DH runs with the assistance. Not sure if it's making me a better rider though. But definitely logging far more miles per week.

OH and...I am definitely losing fitness. I am feeling the pain far more on regular rides on reg. bikes. Could just be me though. I atrophy like a mother.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I don't know about better rider, but certainly different rider. But as long as anyone is having legal fun, rip it! Turn that sucker off and your quads will burn up.


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## motoadve (Nov 14, 2004)

Havent stopped riding my regular Mt bike, just added more riding with the e bike, do not want to loose fitness.
Something I notice is I climb faster and push it harder on the climbs on my regular bike now, cant stand the slow pace of regular climbing vs e bike speed.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

In a way it does. Without a car i was not spending enough hours in networks for mountain bikes. Now i pedal to a network, play 2hrs than pedal back. Not intermediate i have room to improve.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Yeah, dunno about better, but it's made the ramp-up to mid season form as far as DH goes a lot quicker, just because of the extra riding I'm doing. And probably the ramp-up to mid-season fitness slower.


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## b1rdie (Mar 11, 2011)

Yes, it is. From any point of view. e-bikes just gather two of the best inventions ever: bike + eletric energy.
Even if from the fitness point of view, it is the best work out machine I ever invested in, except maybe on the rainy days.


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## wasabot (Feb 3, 2019)

b1rdie said:


> from the fitness point of view, it is the best work out machine I ever invested in, except maybe on the rainy days.


Agree! I use my eMTB workout machine much, much more than the rower and bowflex. I've seen more scenery too! I ride 50% more each ride and can get it done during a 1 hour afternoon lunch break. It's done at a much higher average mph and I definitely keep my heart rate up for the entire ride. Slow is boring! I sold my regular pedal bikes, I can't justify having $4-6K tied up in a "second" bike right now.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Better in what way? I'm guessing that one's handling skills could improve simply by allowing more time on the bike without getting tired as much. Not sure it can help with aerobic capacity and general endurance though.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Crankout said:


> Better in what way? I'm guessing that one's handling skills could improve simply by allowing more time on the bike without getting tired as much. Not sure it can help with aerobic capacity and general endurance though.


It is a tool, we do what we want.
I picked a + bike with more grip more often i climb standing. I sweat. I was lean before and i am loosing weight. If someone is lazy there is no reason to blame a bike. This Ebike is not lowering my physique capacities. I have 3-4 hours of fun most days with it.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

This is actually a great question.

When one says "better rider" there are two ways to cut it. One is better climber, and the other is better descender. Usually, better rider refers to being a better descender (or better on rocks). Better climber is usually known as being more fit.

So does one become a better climber and be more fit with ebikes? Yes. No. and maybe. If one is just starting out and not riding a whole lot, an ebike will get them out so much more and they will get more fit. If one is good cross country racer/climber, it's hard to improve with an ebike since pain can be avoided always. But with discipline, even a high level xc rider can use ebikes and benefit. Use it just for recovery days for example.

Can one improve as descender? Corners, speed, jumps. Absolutely. There are two key ways to improve as a descender IMHO, repetition and bike lessons. Repetition is there as one can do 2-5x more descending with similar time constraints and fitness. Bike lessons, well that's on the rider. Coaching, friends, videos are key. And even when one gets the most golden advice, it usualltake 50 times of trying before it clicks.

Another element with ebikes is they are more stable with the bb weight. They also don't wash out as much as the front tire is always weighted. And one can use the grippiest front tire, knee pads and protection as needed without too much compromise. So, it is a good environment for learning.


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

There is no question that I climb better but I'm not really a better climber. Take away the motor and I still suck on climbs due to medical issues. 

Definitely a better descender since I'm no longer trying to recover while going downhill. Being able to see straight seems to help there.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

BIke N Gear said:


> There is no question that I climb better but I'm not really a better climber. Take away the motor and I still suck on climbs due to medical issues.
> 
> Definitely a better descender since I'm no longer trying to recover while going downhill. Being able to see straight seems to help there.


That's a good point. Descending when you're not knackered is a good thing.

And you know about doing a technical descent twice? Or thrice? "I could have hit that!!!" Well it's now very accessible. And you can descend deliberately on the second run and do it for learning and not fear missing out.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

I know I've gotten better since buying an ebike because I just ride a lot more. Like someone said the early season ramp up was much faster. And like FC said it's the repetition that crystallizes good technique. It reminds me of Firas Zahabi on Joe Rogan talking about fight training at 70%, at the end of the year you have way more miles in than if you go 90-100% but less frequently. Beyond that there are two specific ways I've noticed improvement. The eminent increased cornering traction has helped me carry more speed into turns and get used to railing stuff at hyper speed. And the increased weight makes control in chunky terrain more challenging, so I have to get stronger and more skilled to attack rock gardens. Those skills definitely cross over to pedal bikes.

Firas Zahabi on focus on consistency over intensity in training:


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

When I was a newbie "pro" mountain biker in the late 90s, I was losing time on the descents (because I, really, had no business being there based on skills, it was the 5:00 off-the-couch-mile genetics, and I didn't know how to ride a bike at all).

Solution? KTM EXC 200. I spent a summer (and then fell in love and spent a lot more time) racing and riding motos. You get 10x or more the bike-handling reps in an hour of moto riding than you do riding up and then down on a mountain bike.

So if you have moto trails around, get a moto. If you don't, and you have legal e-mtb trails, get an e-mtb. And yes, it will make you a better (if we're talking about bike handling, fitness/tolerance for suffering is another story) rider. 

-Walt


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Walt said:


> When I was a newbie "pro" mountain biker in the late 90s, I was losing time on the descents (because I, really, had no business being there based on skills, it was the 5:00 off-the-couch-mile genetics, and I didn't know how to ride a bike at all).
> 
> Solution? KTM EXC 200. I spent a summer (and then fell in love and spent a lot more time) racing and riding motos. You get 10x or more the bike-handling reps in an hour of moto riding than you do riding up and then down on a mountain bike.
> 
> ...


I grew up racing BMX, then desert racing dirt bikes, and of course where I live there are MX tracks within 30mins of me, so I did that from time to time. But my favorite stable was always mountain bike riding. Yes, dirt bike speed makes mountain bike speeds seem slow!

I hung up dirt bikes maybe 10yrs ago and I honestly don't miss it at all. Lots of maintenance involved if riding these high strung 4stroke dirt bikes (oil changes, air filter cleaning, lubing chain, changing tires, adjusting valves). To bad I didn't try a 2 stroke dirt bike

I'd have to say ebikes have made me a better rider, as I ride all the time and get way more mileage. You want a good workout, go out with other ebikers and ride a mode lower!


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

mtbbiker said:


> I grew up racing BMX, then desert racing dirt bikes, and of course where I live there are MX tracks within 30mins of me, so I did that from time to time. But my favorite stable was always mountain bike riding. Yes, dirt bike speed makes mountain bike speeds seem slow!
> 
> I hung up dirt bikes maybe 10yrs ago and I honestly don't miss it at all. Lots of maintenance involved if riding these high strung 4stroke dirt bikes (oil changes, air filter cleaning, lubing chain, changing tires, adjusting valves). To bad I didn't try a 2 stroke dirt bike
> 
> I'd have to say ebikes have made me a better rider, as I ride all the time and get way more mileage. You want a good workout, go out with other ebikers and ride a mode lower!


or u can cary a 20 pounders of potatoes


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## b1rdie (Mar 11, 2011)

Or u can ride circles around your non e-bike rider friends while climbing. 
This is such a subjective question, for me, the best trails aroun are those where I can ride faster than any motorized vehicle, including MX.
The recurrent idea of comparing ebikes to motos here sounds so out of place though. If you consider: pedal position and right gear on, as some of the most important techniques, how could riding a motorbike help?
Tire size and overall weight and speed are also there to make your muscle memory dumb when moving from MX to bikes.
Of the many sports I have tried, I could tell that hang gliding and water ski (we don't have snow here) will help one with being a better biker more than riding a MX.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

33red said:


> or u can cary a 20 pounders of potatoes


Potato's? I'd rather carry 20lbs of banana, apples and oranges.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

b1rdie said:


> pedal position and right gear on, as some of the most important techniques, how could riding a motorbike help?
> Tire size and overall weight and speed are also there to make your muscle memory dumb when moving from MX to bikes.


Trust me on this, the skills from riding motos transfer just fine. Yes, the controls are a little bit different - but it's not enough to cause you a problem.

I mean, I'm a former pro who did it, and I know dozens of others who trained on motos (this was 10+ years ago now, though). I'm sure they still do it, too. It doesn't mean you ride moto exclusively, but it's a great training tool for bike handling for any mtb discipline.

-Walt


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Walt said:


> Trust me on this, the skills from riding motos transfer just fine. Yes, the controls are a little bit different - but it's not enough to cause you a problem.
> 
> I mean, I'm a former pro who did it, and I know dozens of others who trained on motos (this was 10+ years ago now, though). I'm sure they still do it, too. It doesn't mean you ride moto exclusively, but it's a great training tool for bike handling for any mtb discipline.
> 
> -Walt


I agree with Walt. Reading terrain- line choice, upper body, airtime, scrubs, whips, front brake control etc. WAY more common than on a water ski or hang gliding. To be fair, I've never hang glided, so there might be some braap I'm missing!


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

33red said:


> It is a tool, we do what we want.
> I picked a + bike with more grip more often i climb standing. I sweat. I was lean before and i am loosing weight. If someone is lazy there is no reason to blame a bike. This Ebike is not lowering my physique capacities. I have 3-4 hours of fun most days with it.


I doubt it helps with aerobic conditioning unless it's a by-product of being out for longer rides. I guess if you turn off the power and ride, you will certainly improve your fitness. Otherwise, the assistance of the motor diminishes your effort. You can't replicate the efforts and gains of a regular bike.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Crankout said:


> I doubt it helps with aerobic conditioning unless it's a by-product of being out for longer rides. I guess if you turn off the power and ride, you will certainly improve your fitness. Otherwise, the assistance of the motor diminishes your effort. You can't replicate the efforts and gains of a regular bike.


Maybe you are not getting 1 fact. I am not a speed addict. No need to turn it off. Some times i forget to turn it on. So an extra 20 ponds to move around. It is not a drug i have 3 other bikes.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

It is for me, Vitamin E and Vitamin B!


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## b1rdie (Mar 11, 2011)

Gutch said:


> I agree with Walt. Reading terrain- line choice, upper body, airtime, scrubs, whips, front brake control etc. WAY more common than on a water ski or hang gliding. To be fair, I've never hang glided, so there might be some braap I'm missing!


Airtime has lots more to do with hang gliding 
But while biking, these skilss you mentioned do not belong to my riding, what i seek is subtleness, balance, and not only reading the terrain but also hearing, smelling and feeling it and those skills you cannot get from MX.
How could you lift the rear whell from a stand on a MX, or do a track stand, and how could a MX line be the same of a trailbike hardtail over natural rough climbs?
One point of e-biking to be considered is the limit of speed, this is where a MX could be used for training jumps or other high speed stunts, but this is out of my scope and also of the majority of the riders.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

b1rdie, you don't know what you're talking about here. "Moto" isn't the same thing as "MX", and what a lot of people do on offroad motorcycles looks pretty much like mountain biking. "Enduro" has a whole different meaning in the motorcycle world.

If your goal is to ride fast/well, motos are excellent cross training for mountain biking. Period.

No comment on the smelling the terrain bit. Not sure what to make of that.

-Walt


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Crankout said:


> I doubt it helps with aerobic conditioning unless it's a by-product of being out for longer rides. I guess if you turn off the power and ride, you will certainly improve your fitness. Otherwise, the assistance of the motor diminishes your effort. You can't replicate the efforts and gains of a regular bike.


What?? I can keep my heart rate at 160-170bpm riding my e-bikes all day long. I can easily get a workout on my ebike equal to my regular bikes. You just go faster.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Walt said:


> b1rdie, you don't know what you're talking about here. "Moto" isn't the same thing as "MX", and what a lot of people do on offroad motorcycles looks pretty much like mountain biking. "Enduro" has a whole different meaning in the motorcycle world.
> 
> If your goal is to ride fast/well, motos are excellent cross training for mountain biking. Period.
> 
> ...


Funny, what do all the pro MXers do? Ride mtbs! Specialized sponsors a GNCC Ebike race. Crazy. I don't see where the majority of riders feel and smell the terrain. But hey, if that's your thing, so be it.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Gutch said:


> Funny, what do all the pro MXers do? Ride mtbs! Specialized sponsors a GNCC Ebike race. Crazy. I don't see where the majority of riders feel and smell the terrain. But hey, if that's your thing, so be it.


They ride MTB's for cardio cross training.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

> E bike making you a better rider?


In a funny way ebikes have changed my riding for the better despite the fact I don't have an ebike.

One of my retirement goals is to move somewhere that I can ride to the trails without firing up a vehicle. Cumberland, BC comes to mind since it's on the Island and has great trails. I have my GF 50% convinced.

Then I was talking with someone about ebikes and the "pro" to ebikes came up that you could ride to the trails from further away. I thought about that for a bit to see if I would agree that was really a "pro" related to ebikes and that led me to think I can just ride to the trails from where I live now on my mountain bike.

So I gave it a shot to see what the ride was like and mapped out a couple nice routes that take ~1hr each way. I haven't driven to the trailhead for my local networks in a couple months now. The ride there is a great warm up. The ride back is a great warm down. I get a bit more exercise which I can always use and don't feel any more tired than I normally would by driving to shred.

My mountain bike also has the benefit of no range anxiety since I don't have a battery to manage. I'll probably wear down my rear tire faster, but that's okay since I'll save $$ on gas/wear and tear on the vehicle.

My GF has done the ride a few times and I think she's getting hooked on going car free for our local trails as well.

So at least indirectly I have to say that ebikes led to an improvement in my riding. :thumbsup:


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Gemini2k05 said:


> What?? I can keep my heart rate at 160-170bpm riding my e-bikes all day long. I can easily get a workout on my ebike equal to my regular bikes. You just go faster.


At some point, if you so desire for improved conditioning, you'll need to turn off the power and pedal on your own. The motor will hold you back in that regard.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

33red said:


> Maybe you are not getting 1 fact. I am not a speed addict. No need to turn it off. Some times i forget to turn it on. So an extra 20 ponds to move around. It is not a drug i have 3 other bikes.


Ok...it is a drug for me. I either bike or smoke the cracks...


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

motoadve said:


> Long time Mt biker and former Pro Moto enduro racer.
> Usually ride 4 times per week, now with the e bike that changed to 6 times per week.
> Bought a Turbo Levo 2 weeks ago.
> I Ride my regular Mt bike in the morning and the e bike in the afternoon.
> ...


I ride better because I ride more confidently because I ride more often.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

hikerdave said:


> I ride better because I ride more confidently because I ride more often.


This is true. I do 5x more jumps and corners now with ebikes added into the mix. And I see a bit more varied terrain. Instead of doing the same few loops in a couple parks, I explore the whole park. And I have a lot of other 'boring' parts added into the mix now.

One really big difference though is fire road descents and corners. In 20 years, I avoided them like the plague since they were 'a wasted loss of elevation'. I would always avoid them if I could and I had enough singletrack in the area to keep me occupied.

With ebikes though, I do a lot more fire road descents than before and I don't mind. Elevation and climb/descent ratios are not a big deal. Soooo, I've gained a lot of feel and confidence with fire road descents now.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Crankout said:


> At some point, if you so desire for improved conditioning, you'll need to turn off the power and pedal on your own. The motor will hold you back in that regard.


Why do I have to turn off the motor? I can still pedal the e-bike in eco-mode while my legs put out my normal 300W FTP and keep my heart rate in the 150-170 range.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

People that don’t own them, don’t get them. You have to have seat time to really understand the handling and how they like to spin. I believe my spin has gotten better!


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## b1rdie (Mar 11, 2011)

Better rider does mean faster rider?
Why hurry?
I like Chris Akrigg style:




This is the kind of riding I call better mountain biking, doesn't mean downhill bike park tracks aren't also nice, but I could live without them.
I believe that e-bikes are much more fun to ride at speeds where assistance is provided, because pedaling them is not fun at all.
That said, way far from riding trials style like in the video, e-bikes are the best tool for improving the skills for rough natural terrain slow riding mountainbiking, because they make it easyer to get to the features and it has weight and dimensions compatible with other bikes.
Much more in the climbing technical, because it brings the confidence one needs to venture over features where stalling could result in disaster, I like this kind of riding.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Regular bike is a lot more work and feels sluggish. I don't think ebike makes a better rider except handling at speed. Ebike is fun.


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