# Clean Sheet...What would you build / want built



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Forum has been dead lately. So within reasonable costs, how would you design and or build your ultimate off-road tandem.

Get as wild and crazy or conservative as you like.

Yes I stole this topic idea from the bikeforums.net tandem section.

Obviously some will post a photo of their current ride to fulfill their post, that's ok but kind of lackluster.

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Great timing on this post. I am in the process of completing this list myself but still have a few details to work out. I'll post up when complete.

Thx for posting this thread PMK! Interested to see the builds, maybe I will get some ideas...


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

As you recall, I took "building your own tandem" to the next level by building my own tandem frame. While there were a couple mild glitches in the build I've been thinking about building another frame. Since we just delivered twins a couple days ago, I'm thinking of building a 4-seater tandem. Sure, I have a few years until it needs to be finished, but it wouldn't hurt to get started now...or at least while I can, since I'm not going to have a lot of time on my hands. 

There is a local family who rides a 4-seater road tandem, but I think an offroad version may be fun for some of the local fire roads. The question though, is should it be a 26er? 29er? 36er?

While preparing for the 4-seater, I've thought of making a kids tandem like some that have been posted here. While it may seem less expensive to be able to build your own frames, it really is more expensive, because it causes me to build more bikes! hmm...anyone ever seen a tandem balance bike?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Blaster1200 said:


> As you recall, I took "building your own tandem" to the next level by building my own tandem frame. While there were a couple mild glitches in the build I've been thinking about building another frame. Since we just delivered twins a couple days ago, I'm thinking of building a 4-seater tandem. Sure, I have a few years until it needs to be finished, but it wouldn't hurt to get started now...or at least while I can, since I'm not going to have a lot of time on my hands.
> 
> There is a local family who rides a 4-seater road tandem, but I think an offroad version may be fun for some of the local fire roads. The question though, is should it be a 26er? 29er? 36er?
> 
> While preparing for the 4-seater, I've thought of making a kids tandem like some that have been posted here. While it may seem less expensive to be able to build your own frames, it really is more expensive, because it causes me to build more bikes! hmm...anyone ever seen a tandem balance bike?


Congratulations.

Not sure about an off-road quad, but why not.

We currently have a Strider balance bike here for our granddaughter. As for a tandem balance bike...stock up on band aids for a little while.

PK


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

Of course, I'm kidding about the tandem balance bike - that would be like watching a train wreck! Well...mostly kidding! Getting two kids on the same page to do that would likely be like herding cats.

But a 4-seater offroad tandem would surely be a test of planning turns!

I'll surely need to get better at my TIG welding before I start such a project, because if I were to fillet-braze a 4-seater, I better start now!


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

A full suspension fatbike tandem. Full 10spd XTR. S&S couplers. Independent coasting. Titanium.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Twenty-niner full suspension with a 36mm fork- wait, I am dreaming here, is this supposed to be reality based?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Schmucker said:


> A full suspension fatbike tandem. Full 10spd XTR. S&S couplers. Independent coasting. Titanium.


I'm envisioning a Pugsley style fat bike?.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Twenty-niner full suspension with a 36mm fork- wait, I am dreaming here, is this supposed to be reality based?


Dream bigger...that is an easy order to fill.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

One dream bike that comes to mind for me...

An American built Cannondale frame, 26" wheeled. Top tube, downtube and diagonal all join at headtube for added lateral stiffness, Single pivot with a Super V Active style rear suspension. Asymmetrical swingarm, Cane Creek rear damper, 130mm travel. Headtube would be 1,5, with Cane Creek adjustable headset. Fox 40 fork, modified to 130mm and built with high preload, proper rate springs.

Big 220mm front disc, 190mm rear disc, probably Avid or Hopes. DT 440 hubs. Velocity rims, DT spokes. 

All right side drive that works with a 2x10 XX with twist shifters. Thomson seatposts and stems (custom stoker).

Carbon Fibre glideplate on bottom tube, frame would be beefed up and have built in fastener points for the glide plate.

40 pounds ready to ride.

PK


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

PMK said:


> I'm envisioning a Pugsley style fat bike?.
> 
> PK


You haven't seen this?
http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/sandman-outback-tandem-674189.html


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Cool thread, PK.


Titanium or ti/carbon bi-lam softtail; minimal travel, with lockout. Braze ons for racks and BOB trailer
650b rear, 29er front
4-5" of fork travel, 20mm TA
Belt drive/Rohloff, no grip shift
Stoker bar connects to frame, not post
30.9mm seat tubes, drop posts on both, 5" minimum
Narrower version of Point1 Podium pedal rear, standard in front

That should do


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## phill77 (Aug 31, 2008)

A little motor on the boom tube for when my stoker can't be bothered to pedal...


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

phill77 said:


> A little motor on the boom tube for when my stoker can't be bothered to pedal...


That's easy...two options, spend money and install the motor, or spend money and tell the stoker you'll take her shopping after the ride.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Schmucker said:


> You haven't seen this?
> http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/sandman-outback-tandem-674189.html


Yes I have seen that topic. Very cool bike. One trail here would be the great on that machine. Riders are known to buy a Pugsley solely for that trail.

That bike is hardtail and not a sweet as your dream ride, your dream bike sounds nicer than the one you linked to.

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

A FS Sandman would be very intriguing, and falling under the guise of "clean sheet" builds. I spent a serious few minutes looking at that, thinking how I could justify it, just because of how it looks. I don't frequent snow (and if we did with that, would need to take the Toyota Tacoma instead of my AWD Subaru - a choice I never want to have to make), but we do have lots of coastline. I can get pretty far at low tide, at least until I get to Malibu.


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

I already built mine, although technically I did'nt build the frame. I built up a Ventana El Testigo and pretty much put all top shelf parts on it. 
Im planning on putting a Fox 40 fork and SRAM 3x10, instead of the RockShox Boxxer and the SRAM XO 2x9.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> I already built mine, although technically I did'nt build the frame. I built up a Ventana El Testigo and pretty much put all top shelf parts on it.
> Im planning on putting a Fox 40 fork and SRAM 3x10, instead of the RockShox Boxxer and the SRAM XO 2x9.


You should enjoy the Fox 40, ours has worked well for us on the ECDM.

Jeff, this is a dream it topic...the "already built mine is what most of the roadies say...you can do better...please give it a shot.

PK


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

The El Testigo will be my dream bike with the Fox 40 and the SRAM 10 speed though.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> The El Testigo will be my dream bike with the Fox 40 and the SRAM 10 speed though.


Would it be more cool with huge brakes (larger than 203's in the front and every bolt worthy of replacing made from Titanium or Aluminum...

Which 40 do you plan to get? A kashima 2012 with the new seals?

Yes I am taunting you, you do have a nice tandem, enjoy it.

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

ds2199 said:


> Twenty-niner full suspension with a 36mm fork- wait, I am dreaming here, is this supposed to be reality based?


So step one in the process has begun. Frame on order.


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## Rorschach1 (Sep 19, 2011)

What about this fork? Since it is still a dream yet to be real? We are kicking around thoughts of a 29'er ECDM, and why not this fork?
Maverick DUC 36. 
I'm a new poster, so can't post the link yet. Newer version of the DUC-32.


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## phill77 (Aug 31, 2008)

To be honest, other than blinging it up a bit with DI2 gears, Ti bolts and other exotica, my ECDM is exactly what I want.

With enough money I could do all that now, but at the moment only in fantasy tandem land can i have:
- full carbon frame to shed a bit of weight, and in a funky shape to give better ground clearance to the boom tube
- some sort of sprung loaded EBB ( I know it isn't really neccessary, just think it would be neat)
- a way to measure and log the torque through all the cranks and to the rear wheel (i'd love to know why we are slower than single bikes sometimes)
- a way to turn it into a half bike, so when we are away from home I can go off on my own whilst my wife is in bed


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Rorschach1 said:


> What about this fork? Since it is still a dream yet to be real? We are kicking around thoughts of a 29'er ECDM, and why not this fork?
> Maverick DUC 36.
> I'm a new poster, so can't post the link yet. Newer version of the DUC-32.


Yes, that fork would go quite nicely on that dream 29er tandem. It is in the "dream" category as it seems to be forever delayed for actual release date.

I will say that I have seen one and it's pretty sweet!


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## rbtcha (Nov 17, 2007)

Great Question... 
As crazy as it might sound I would love to have Canefield build a tandem based on the Secret Weapon that Josh Bender is known to huck off many large drops with 10 inches of travel in the rear(2neg/8pos). then mount a nice old school 12 inch fork up front. I am thinking of a full on DH tandem that with proper C/S weight and training could be hucked off any drop and roll any trail out there.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

How would you ride DH style off drops and such without being able to really unweight the front end?


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## rbtcha (Nov 17, 2007)

You can un-weight the front if you time it right. Similar to doing bunny hops on the tandem by using the suspension to get the front up a bit, but , this would be more for high speed drops where rolling off at full speed is best. wheelie drops are sort of a problem. It would be amazing to take something like this down A-Line in Wistler BC


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

*Impatiently waiting for parts...*

Frame arrived just in time for our anniversary - no presents were exchanged, we just this thing to stare at until we get a few outstanding parts and build it up! :thumbsup:


From ECDM 29

From ECDM 29


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## bsdc (May 1, 2006)

Lenz Milk Money style concentric pivot 29er tandem with Rohloff.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

"I hate derailleurs"...haha, bcsd. I don't hate 'em...on single bikes. 

ds, congrats on that wicked looking frame. Glad to see a tandem mfr stepping up to the FS/29er plate. From what I've read there are diminishing signs of life at Vicious Cycles. Don't know who else is building stock FS/29ers...maybe no one? Anyway, enjoy the excitement of building her up, not to mention riding.

Mike


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## tndmnuts (Oct 8, 2011)

*tndmnuts*

Love the 29er frame. Our Ventana is a 26" version. Having owned 5 full suspension tandems I would dream of a Ventana built to hold the 3.8"endomorph tires or better yet the new 4.7" Nates. I saw the gorgeous Sandman tandem on a post but it is only front suspension. Perhaps this will be enough cushion for the stoker but full suspension on a tandem is nice.

Have any other offroad tandem teams tried a single Pugsley? Anyone know of a North American frame builder making a frame to accommodate Surly endomorph tires? What tandem worthy fork would you use if a Pugsley like tandem could be built?


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

ds2199 said:


> Frame arrived just in time for our anniversary - no presents were exchanged, we just this thing to stare at until we get a few outstanding parts and build it up! :thumbsup:


More pics! This is the first new frame I've seen from Ventana since the changes. Looks like it doesn't get the internal routing. What about the rear suspension changes?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> More pics! This is the first new frame I've seen from Ventana since the changes. Looks like it doesn't get the internal routing. What about the rear suspension changes?


After a discussion with Teresa a couple months back, the ECDM was not getting any rear suspension changes. Possibly the damper assembly but I'm not sure.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

tndmnuts said:


> Love the 29er frame. Our Ventana is a 26" version. Having owned 5 full suspension tandems I would dream of a Ventana built to hold the 3.8"endomorph tires or better yet the new 4.7" Nates. I saw the gorgeous Sandman tandem on a post but it is only front suspension. Perhaps this will be enough cushion for the stoker but full suspension on a tandem is nice.
> 
> Have any other offroad tandem teams tried a single Pugsley? Anyone know of a North American frame builder making a frame to accommodate Surly endomorph tires? What tandem worthy fork would you use if a Pugsley like tandem could be built?


I have spent some time on a borrowed Pugsley.

After reading the Sandman links and info, I don't know if they are even sold in the USA.

We have one local trail that could optimize the concept of those big tires. Seems a bit to elite to own a bike for one specific trail. Granted they may work well on a typical harder packed surface, but if those local to me ride their Pugsleys on specific trails, I would suspect the tandem style would do the same.

When the trails are that sandy, it becomes time to ride the road tandem along the ocean.

PK


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

Hey Dan! Great looking frame! I hope you put really heavy, slow parts on or else we will never keep up. Did they keep the old, straight rockers on the rear, or the new shaped ones?

Our friends here with the Downs synd. child just ordered a coupled Elconq from Alex. We are starting to take over Western Colorado.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Trails4Two said:


> Hey Dan! Great looking frame! I hope you put really heavy, slow parts on or else we will never keep up. Did they keep the old, straight rockers on the rear, or the new shaped ones?
> 
> Our friends here with the Downs synd. child just ordered a coupled Elconq from Alex. We are starting to take over Western Colorado.


Chris, as usual, we will pick quality parts, not the lightest and certainly not the heaviest.

I'll post up some more pics when we start the build.

On another note, should we add to the ECDM thread? or start a new ECDM 29 thread? or keep it going on the "clean sheet..." thread?

Very cool that your friends are getting a new bike from Alex! More tandems to get together and out in Fruita or Moab too! :thumbsup:


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Trails4Two said:


> Hey Dan! Great looking frame! I hope you put really heavy, slow parts on or else we will never keep up. Did they keep the old, straight rockers on the rear, or the new shaped ones?
> 
> Our friends here with the Downs synd. child just ordered a coupled Elconq from Alex. We are starting to take over Western Colorado.


The suspension for the tandems is the same as previos generations, same pviot location and same rockers.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Chris, as usual, we will pick quality parts, not the lightest and certainly not the heaviest.
> 
> I'll post up some more pics when we start the build.
> 
> ...


I'm sure the bike will be an awesome build. I look forward to seeing it.

As for where to post it, that's entirely up to you. I would say post in the ECDM topic, since it does cover all sizes, AND start a new topic geared to the ECDM 29's.

I don't know how many of the ECDM 29's have been built, but obviously it is a fraction of all the 26" bikes.

Should we expect a ride report before next spring?

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

*Finally!!!!*

Thanks to Alex of MTBtandems, Sherwood at Ventana and my local bike shop for helping us to build our new ride!

I think it was worth the wait. The only thing missing is the rear Magura brake. Waiting on a tandem length brake line. In the meantime, Avid BB7 will be just fine.

Picked it up today, made a few adjustments for saddles and stoker bars and got in a short 10 mile ride. I am pretty sure that this bike is the real deal! More to come on that, I'll post something on the ECDM thread, or start a 29er thread or something?

It came in at just shy of 43 lbs ready to ride (with a set of ergon grips for my stoker - those things are over 1/2 lb :eekster. I guess on a 43 lb bike, who cares about a 1/2 pound right?

Here's a couple of pics.


From ECDM 29

From ECDM 29


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

She is smiling...guessing it was a great mutually exchanged anniversary gift.

That bike looks real nice. I can't tell the exact color, but the Black main frame and black Fox fork gives a similar look to our ECDM. Differing though is the rear suspension, ours is polished while yours is black.

So the stoker is smiling and happy, how about the captain, I'm speculating he likes it too.

I hope winter arrives late and leaves early for you two, assuming that you aren't big on skiing.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

DS, in the photo, is that the town / city you two live in behind your wife? Curious if you roll from your front door or are driving to the trails.

Also, most of your photos have no trees in the pictures, is that typical of where you ride / live?

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

PMK said:


> She is smiling...guessing it was a great mutually exchanged anniversary gift.
> 
> That bike looks real nice. I can't tell the exact color, but the Black main frame and black Fox fork gives a similar look to our ECDM. Differing though is the rear suspension, ours is polished while yours is black.
> 
> ...


Yes, mutually exchanged.

Carbon black is the color.

Yes, both happy 

Winter appears to be arriving late. But we do ski, it's about an hour and 20 minutes from here. Ideally it will snow there and not here, but does not work out that way as much as I'd like.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

PMK said:


> DS, in the photo, is that the town / city you two live in behind your wife? Curious if you roll from your front door or are driving to the trails.
> 
> Also, most of your photos have no trees in the pictures, is that typical of where you ride / live?
> 
> PK


Yes, that is the town behind my wife. We are even closer than that to this particular trail. We roll from the house for 4 or 5 different local trails.

Living on the "Front Range", we are right at the base of the "foothills" mountains. East of the foothills lacks trees. Foothills and west have trees. For reference, where Trails4two lives is about 4 hours west and might be called desert climate, therefore trees are not included in most of his pics.

It's funny that your perspective is that of the pics I have shared and they do not contain trees. About 2 miles west of the photo above you would find forest of trees. Ill be sure to share other perspectives of our local area. The downside of living at the mountains is that in a mile or two, it's common to climb a couple thousand feet.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Yes, that is the town behind my wife. We are even closer than that to this particular trail. We roll from the house for 4 or 5 different local trails.
> 
> Living on the "Front Range", we are right at the base of the "foothills" mountains. East of the foothills lacks trees. Foothills and west have trees. For reference, where Trails4two lives is about 4 hours west and might be called desert climate, therefore trees are not included in most of his pics.
> 
> It's funny that your perspective is that of the pics I have shared and they do not contain trees. About 2 miles west of the photo above you would find forest of trees. Ill be sure to share other perspectives of our local area. The downside of living at the mountains is that in a mile or two, it's common to climb a couple thousand feet.


Honestly, your photos are awesome. If you would like, I can capture a few of us with the warm Atlantic Gulfstream in the background as it flows past the Bahamas.

Seriously, those of us that do ride a lot, know how cool it is to see and visit new places. And yes, we are trying to sort out some stuff in an attempt to go west soon for some riding.

BTW, dare I ask what is the difference between black and carbon black? It looks great and I'm certain it will be well used. I pity your road tandem...might as well buy it a nice custom cover.

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

PMK said:


> Honestly, your photos are awesome. If you would like, I can capture a few of us with the warm Atlantic Gulfstream in the background as it flows past the Bahamas.
> 
> Seriously, those of us that do ride a lot, know how cool it is to see and visit new places. And yes, we are trying to sort out some stuff in an attempt to go west soon for some riding.
> 
> ...


Carbon black is like matte black.

Yes, the road tandem only saw the light of day once this year, it's pretty sad.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Forgot to ask...9 or 10.

PK


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