# 3D Printing and the bicycle industry



## robtre (Apr 9, 2008)

Not sure where to post this but I figured here might draw some attention. Is anyone aware of a 3D printed bicycle frame or components ? What materials could be used? AL, TI , CF, FE?


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

World's First 3D Printed Bike - Pinkbike
Bike frame with 3d printed Lugs :: by Ralf Holleis | Megadeluxe | For The Love of Speed, Sport & Design

My somewhat limited understanding suggests that current technology printed materials have anisotropy what with material being added in one plane at a time.

For instance, this carbon fiber printer, you don't get any control of the fiber orientation. https://markforged.com/

Printing will continue to be refined (the last few years have been sorta bonkers!) - so even through I'm trying hard to break into pro frame building, maybe it'll some day prove to a fool's errand when my dream job evaporates.


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## robtre (Apr 9, 2008)

Yeah I found that article after I posted. There are some things that should just remain hand made!


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Alright, I like this thread......much more 3D printed goodies to come!


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## Oldfatbaldguy (Nov 4, 2010)

I dont see a 3d printed bike in the near future. There are CAD programs that can be used to design frames, CAD/CAM for cutting tube or sheets, and I assume that robots could be employed to actually weld or layup.

Materials science just isnt going to be there at a cost-effective price point any time soon. OTOH, 3D printed assembly jigging is most likely here now. We outsource it in my industry to create CNC jigging at times. 

3D printing has a long way to go as a mass-production strategy.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

I agree, for the mass production side we won't be seeing anytime soon, but for custom and on demand parts, it's here! 


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## jcaino (May 26, 2007)

You just gotta print with titanium:

3D Printing Service i.materialise | Titanium

Don't even want to think what that would cost.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Expensive. I know 


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

I don't think 3d printing will ever be a good option. Not for high performance parts.

As it is now printed parts needs binders. Whereas regular parts are either cast or (some kind of) forged. Cast parts are usually lower overall performance since you have voids in them. Only reason. Usually 30% worse.

I know you can 3d print metals but still you need some kind of binder. And with regular parts you don't need any binder at all.
Sintered parts have existed for ages. Basically you make some kind of powder with a binder (commonly nicker/cobalt binder and tungsten base) and heat it up, smack it with extreme force turning it into the shape you want (basically a 1 step forging process), then heat it again to fuze the binder with the shaped part. Still this is not a good option unless its the only option. These parts are porous to some extent and cracks easily. I belive you can get 99% density or so.

Then we have "powder steel" this is spray formed steel with the different alloying elements being sprayed with high voltage electricity. kind of like stick welding. The only reason thius method is used is that you can get a higher % carbon into a steel bar this way, you can get like 3% or so in there. Using regular methods this would be cast iron. And after the powder part (there are many different methods) the steel goes through the regular methods of hot rolling to shape and so on. This has some upsides and some downsides. Supposedly it cracks easier than regular forged parts (lower toughness in one or several directions).

Many metals are graded a special way, such as vim-var (vacuum induction melting - vacuum arc remelting Vacuum arc remelting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia just to limit the amount of non metal particles in the finished product). All gases pretty much makes metals bad, and all non metals too. Common contaminants in steel are phosphorus and sulphur. These are kept at what 0.025 or 0.0025% or similar in good steel.

Then we have some metals that are tricky/expensive to shape such as iron/nickel/cobalt based superalloys and ti. And usually these are forged in an inert atmosphere to closed to finished shape then either machined or ground to spec. because 1 its actually the fastest way and, 2 its the cheapest way.

When printing metals you want all metal, and high density so the part still has to go through some kind of heat treating/forging/sintering/rolling/whatever and when that is finished you could have just forged or machined the part in the first place from mill material. Because that would probably have been cheaper, and much better.

In metals you want (ideally) 100.0% density and 0.0% non metallic inclusions otherwise you have a sh1t product, thats it.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

car bone, How about the material specs showing on these websites such i.materialise and Shapeways, would you rely on them? 

What is going to dictate if a product is good or bad, depends on load testings and simulations on the computer. Simulations depends on material specs, so by importing theses specs (form these companies), would you rely on the simulation results?


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

I rely on matweb at least.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

And yeah btw. If the part being designed needs a laser burning/melting the part out from powder just to fabricate it and thats the only way. Then guess what. The part is simply designed wrong.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

car bone said:


> I rely on matweb at least.


matweb, good source. I want to rely on the websites, the question remains on how pure the final printing is as you've described.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

andrepsz said:


> car bone, How about the material specs showing on these websites such i.materialise and Shapeways, would you rely on them?
> 
> What is going to dictate if a product is good or bad, depends on load testings and simulations on the computer. Simulations depends on material specs, so by importing theses specs (form these companies), would you rely on the simulation results?


Forget computers. First you need the actual material you will be using, the exact same material. Then you test that said material for real specs. Then you plug these values you get into a computer. Then you simulate.

Personally I wouldn't rely on jack chit without testing it. For example sometime hardness values (that directly correlate to strength in steel) is measured in Rockwell C but you can find conversion list for Brinell values. But these are not always interchangable, usually they are not. Usually its just an approximation. So you need to test this yourself with the suitable machine for example a Rockwell C test. And a sharpy impact tester and so on. Because trying to extrapolate data from other not really interchangable data wont work in real life.

For example I have worked in the metal industry for quite some time and a common problem is: the customer want something made out of alloy x that has a hardness of y hrc since then they have a stength of z in the part. And you try to get this alloy and then find it but its hardness is labelled in brinell, you whip out your conversion table and find that its on par. but in real life the convesion table doesn't work since it doesn't account for many different things such as % of harder carbides that skews one measurement standard but not the other and so on.

and then you fabricate this part with the interpolated hardness and sends it out to a customer and they build whatever they do, and then some people die because the part failed since it was not up to spec. And then you're poor and/or in prison.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

andrepsz said:


> matweb, good source. I want to rely on the websites, the question remains on how pure the final printing is as you've described.


you would have to send it out to a lab to determine it. Many people here are afraid of ti that has slight blue discoloration (imo totally safe for bikes) so youre dealing with tough customers.

But imo 3d printing parts of metal today is just a waste of time/money unless its ultra special and cant possibly be manufactured any other way. and it never is..


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

car bone said:


> and then you fabricate this part with the interpolated hardness and sends it out to a customer and they build whatever they do, and then some people die because the part failed since it was not up to spec. And then you're poor and/or in prison.


what a sad story! Well, I'm all over Solidworks right now, doing some projects, all stoked that I just learned simulations! so...thanks for the feedback, discouraging but essential to consider.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

If you test the material its no problem but don't rely on numbers given to you even from the mill that makes it. And if youre tesing for hardness in steel and trying to extrapolate stength do the right test. If testing for impact toughness such as the charpy test do that on YOUR part/material with YOUR heat treatment. 

On critical parts (military/space/offshore) sometimes you have to sign off on them and then you're personally responsible.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

car bone said:


> If you test the material its no problem but don't rely on numbers given to you even from the mill that makes it. And if youre tesing for hardness in steel and trying to extrapolate stength do the right test. If testing for impact toughness such as the charpy test do that on YOUR part/material with YOUR heat treatment.
> 
> On critical parts (military/space/offshore) sometimes you have to sign off on them and then you're personally responsible.


Ok thanks, I thought Von Mises was 'the man'!


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## gumby. (Mar 11, 2013)

car bone said:


> But imo 3d printing parts of metal today is just a waste of time/money unless its ultra special and cant possibly be manufactured any other way. and it never is..


The Koenigsegg one turbo housings are a good example of a practical application, a challenge to cast and no need for patterns or cores. That said I can't imagine anything on a bicycle to warrant it.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

gumby. said:


> The Koenigsegg one turbo housings are a good example of a practical application, a challenge to cast and no need for patterns or cores. That said I can't imagine anything on a bicycle to warrant it.


Can't find any info on this. Google shows a racing car?!

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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

A very very expensive car


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

car bone said:


> A very very expensive car


I thought we were talking about bikes?!?!

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## gumby. (Mar 11, 2013)

About as relevant as 3D printing, I was reiterating Carbone’s points about there being to no practical application to justify existing 3D printing technology for bicycle components.
For now bicycle turbo housings will be cast, if you want to see what 'Koenigsegg one turbo housings’ are google it.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Ok I saw that. I also would like to point this out: lets think this through: Mister Koenigsegg made a 3d printed stainless steel turbo housing for a High performance car.





I'm not a Turbo housing Engineer but I'd say there is a great amount of pressure going on inside that. For him to have this idea and actually print one for real application I'm sure he made a series of tests, Flow simulations, etc...and he had to rely on the steel material spec for his project..so there is a consistency on that, and to find that out, only after trials and error.

Thinking on this path, I do believe 3d printing will be justified for cycling eventually when the cost to use the tech drops.


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## Co60 (Mar 7, 2015)

I make Carbon Fiber aircraft parts for a living, and I have been tossing around the idea of trying to design and produce a frame. By far the hardest part is designing and making the mold. I wonder if a 3D printed mold could withstand the abuse of the cure cycle. It would need to withstand temperatures of ideally 350F and pressures of ideally 35psi or more


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

Co60 said:


> I make Carbon Fiber aircraft parts for a living, and I have been tossing around the idea of trying to design and produce a frame. By far the hardest part is designing and making the mold. I wonder if a 3D printed mold could withstand the abuse of the cure cycle. It would need to withstand temperatures of ideally 350F and pressures of ideally 35psi or more


Calfee spilled the beans on this recently - he's 3D printing molds for rapid-turnaround lugs with special geometry.

I'm doing the same, but with subtractive / machining of recyclable materials rather than 3D printing of recyclable materials.

I recently encountered the notion that either of these class of materials can and will warp when subjected to radiant heat. My prepreg has now been earmarked for the time being while I try to fix this setback.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Drew Diller said:


> Calfee spilled the beans on this recently - he's 3D printing molds for rapid-turnaround lugs with special geometry.
> 
> I'm doing the same, but with subtractive / machining of recyclable materials rather than 3D printing of recyclable materials.
> 
> I recently encountered the notion that either of these class of materials can and will warp when subjected to radiant heat. My prepreg has now been earmarked for the time being while I try to fix this setback.


Take a look at this, I'm just lazy now to look at the material specs..it should give you numbers about max temperatures as well:
http://www.stratasys.com/solutions-applications/digital-manufacturing/injection-molding

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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

andrepsz said:


> I'm not a Turbo housing Engineer but I'd say there is a great amount of pressure going on inside that. For him to have this idea and actually print one for real application I'm sure he made a series of tests, Flow simulations, etc...and he had to rely on the steel material spec for his project..so there is a consistency on that, and to find that out, only after trials and error.
> 
> Thinking on this path, I do believe 3d printing will be justified for cycling eventually when the cost to use the tech drops.


I think turbos only produce 0.5-2 bar overpressure usually. They spin fast and get very hot though.

What parts on a bike would benefit from being 3d printed in your opinion??

Like drew wrote, making molds could be one thing. Fast prototyping, making mockups, making truly one off parts for hobbyists that don't have access to other machines thats all I can think off. Still these machines are not cheap.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

those turbo parts are interesting, but I think on a bicycle there are few parts where the shape is so complex that there is extra material as a result of that. I suspect that in the turbo example, shape is the key issue, and strength/weight are much lesser issues. And many bike parts are light enough that fatigue becomes the driver


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I think junctions of frame members and attachment points are the logical starting place for 3D printing. Why not print a dropout with the basic hydro or mech caliper casting of your choice seamlessly included, and that basic brake casting itself can be hollow where appropriate.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

And even then a regular turbo is a radial/axial hybrid compressor. The first jet engines were of this design, and they left it as soon as axial only were invented. They (Königsegg) could easily have gone with a more high tech approach there, imo.

I made an uplight out of a tiny compressor we scrapped. just for fun. I wanted something "industrial" looking.  
These are (were..) high performance machines.























andrepsz what parts are you planning to make with 3d printing?

as what specs to go with the answer is: it depends.
In regular industry you get several different qualities from different mills/makers, even though they all conform to a "standard" like "O1" steel. Some of them are purer, some of them are dirtier and so on. Just an example. You can get some AISI steel from uddeholm tool in sweden and you can get the same steel at like 1/4 the cost from other distributors/makers. The finsihed product may be twice as likely to break using the cheap crap steel, thats the difference.

If you see some specs on a site and you are engineering something you need to have some margins for defects in the material.
All metals break at their weakest point, be it external such as a scratch or internal such as some impurity aggregate inside the metal. This is always the starting point.

I would just have the part made and test it. And then beef it up accordingly if needed.

even more off topic: i used to work at a place where we made sh1t for the offshore oil industry. and we had just got a new 2million euro cnc machine to machine long parts in. The machine was awesome. Then we got a lot of steel from china we were supposed to turn into some load bearing parts for oil rigs. We started machining these parts immediately as soon as we got it. I'm guessing there was a few days of machine time on each part (= expensive since we charged like 500€/h in that machine). And then when we got the lag results back it turns out the steel is actually harder (and therefore stronger with this steel) and a different alloy than ordered.

Common sense would tell you stronger is better right?? But not in this case since it was going out in the cold and needed a certain impact toughness at -30C, which was now like half of what it was supposed to be.

So just because something is speced "better" doesn't actually mean its better in all situations. Just so you know. Could get expensive fast.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

bsieb said:


> ^I think junctions of frame members and attachment points are the logical starting place for 3D printing. Why not print a dropout with the basic hydro or mech caliper casting of your choice seamlessly included, and that basic brake casting itself can be hollow where appropriate.


Yeah but would you want a printed dropout or even a cast/molded dropout if you had the choice of forged??

Just look at the gun industry where MIM parts are employed. They break for no reason at all, also all cast parts are stongly disliked for a good reason, since its sh1t. And these are parts like triggers and hammers. Would you want an even more "uncertain" quality?

Fuk that sh1t imo. They can't even make low stress parts out of castings/molds (really good castings/molds) that last, so what about this unproven fantasy space fairy tech then??


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

car bone said:


> Yeah but would you want a printed dropout or even a cast/molded dropout if you had the choice of forged??


Right, and one - truly unavoidable - aspect of 3D printing is that they are getting into the reaches of people who have spent time learning computing software very well, yet don't understand material realities of things.

I know. I got a 3D printer early on, before I knew my ass from a hole in the ground regarding CFRP. The printer has been collecting dust.

Your quote here rings true for CFRP as well, it'd be possible to rotocast short-fiber carbon frames. Zero human skill required to make, say, an entire front suspension triangle in one go. Minor detail, the strength isn't there for it to be worthwhile.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I have never looked at suspension design, but I can imagine that a really good additive process might be useful there. The advantages for dropouts or lugs seem really minimal, maybe a bb shell?



car bone said:


> And even then a regular turbo is a radial/axial hybrid compressor. The first jet engines were of this design, and they left it as soon as axial only were invented. They (Königsegg) could easily have gone with a more high tech approach there, imo.


radial designs are still common in small, high-speed turbomachinery. They aren't going away. I expect they will continue to get better.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

unterhausen said:


> I have never looked at suspension design, but I can imagine that a really good additive process might be useful there. The advantages for dropouts or lugs seem really minimal, maybe a bb shell?
> 
> radial designs are still common in small, high-speed turbomachinery. They aren't going away. I expect they will continue to get better.


I don't know but I do know radial/axial hybrid comprerssors are fu*king stone age stuff since I myself can salvage **** that goes 25 bar easily at whatever rpm/flow you want. Also there is a lot of other turbines being developed. I myself is working on one, it was finished theoretically like 10 years ago I just need to turn metals into turbine. it will have at least 50% higher efficiency than todays mass produced sh1t.

And i need a real cnc for this. And money. And while at it I developed 3 methods for hardening the inside of rifle barrels without hardening the outside. Making them bendable yet 10x longer lasting than todays best sh1t. 3 fuking methods! I did this just for fun.  Since I happen to know how sh1t really works.

Basically most mass produced sh!t is stone age tech. severe stone age sh1t. talking compressors/related tech that is.

But lets quit talking that and continue talking bike related parts that would benefit from being made in a 3d printer. Can anyone really come up with one??

 i cant


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## Co60 (Mar 7, 2015)

I just spent 10 minutes typing this out neat and organize and it spit some error at me, infuriating

handlebar grips, tires, valve stem caps, valve stems, suspension and cable boots, knobs, dials, lever grips, cable organizers, storage boxes


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## worldskipper (Jul 4, 2013)

Speaking of cool 3d printers this has some interesting applications.

Carbon3D | CLIP Technology - Breakthrough technology centered on tunable photochemical process for layerless 3D printing


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Exactly... this tech is only an infant but eventually designers will adapt to it and the machinery will get faster and cheaper and will replace the machine tools we know and love. I started out running an overhead shaft and belt system, and that is how outdated your best current tech will be shortly. At least it will seem short in terms of your lifetime passing by.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

car bone said:


> I
> 
> But lets quit talking that and continue talking bike related parts that would benefit from being made in a 3d printer. Can anyone really come up with one??
> 
> i cant


This....fully functioning chainring....that I'm testing right now:

















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## mhelander (May 9, 2014)

Nice ring, NW and all. I would love to get NW 15% oval 50t ring to my other 1x11 bike...

What printing HW and method was used with this ?


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Stainless steel. Still under development and torture test. I would need to figure it out the oval shape... it's possible to do. The structure design is everything for rings and I'm trying many many options always looking for the lightest and strongest. It's been fun.


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## Oldfatbaldguy (Nov 4, 2010)

I'm wondering about car-bone's bone-a-fides. 
Tries awfully hard to convince that he knows his stuff, but communicates like an angry teenager.
My boss's son is in college right now completing his masters. He's in a program financed by a Detroit firm interested in applying ductile-and-malleable cast technology to micro-casting. You may have heard of them...they make automobiles. They have been 3d printing low-temp vaporizing polymers to use in pressure investment casting processes with some success. 

His work would be an excellent starting point for custom investment-cast lugs from some exotic ferrous alloys. You'd better pony up extremely large for time in the lab, though.


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## mickuk (Jul 6, 2007)

I'm no great fan of 3d printing, but was also wondering about his comments regarding castings in general being junk. I work in automotive fatigue and durability testing, and see widespread use of good cast components in very high stress / shock loaded applications e.g. 

Cast iron (sometimes ADI heat treated) used in place of forgings for very heavy truck and bus hubs, king posts and suspension arms.

Hollow aluminium castings used for suspension arms and uprights in many heavy and high performance luxury cars. It has actually been very interesting watching production parts develop over the last ten years from steel forging>hollow cast iron>aluminium forging>hollow cast aluminium.


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

mickuk said:


> I'm no great fan of 3d printing, but was also wondering about his comments regarding castings in general being junk. I work in automotive fatigue and durability testing, and see widespread use of good cast components in very high stress / shock loaded applications e.g.
> 
> Cast iron (sometimes ADI heat treated) used in place of forgings for very heavy truck and bus hubs, king posts and suspension arms.
> 
> Hollow aluminium castings used for suspension arms and uprights in many heavy and high performance luxury cars. It has actually been very interesting watching production parts develop over the last ten years from steel forging>hollow cast iron>aluminium forging>hollow cast aluminium.


Mick when I worked in aerospace bits and bobs we made cockpit canopy surrounds out of castings for a very well known high tech fighter jet , one continuous hollow piece, its a slightly higher technology method but it was cast in principle.

There a bizarre sense you get when you pick up what we call fully dense parts you instantly can tell that they are not just this or that grade of material, the same is true of 3d printed pieces, they're ****ing crap in the hand

Its funny as I get older I feel more obsolete if that makes sense and it was only 2 years ago I was working on stuff that's 10 years ahead of what they world sees as state of the art now but just as CNC took over from manual machining so 3d printing will take over from CNC machining but not in as big a way for industrial manufacture,I don't think until the machine can blend molecules and rearrange atoms it will be the holy grail of manufacturing and that is certainly possible, they already 3d print molecules in medicine so ,I think it will be more of an runs alongside than takes over and then only for certain things

It appears the the bells and whistles and industry guys and gals are singing its praises but for every single positive thing they raise there's a drawback for example they say 
you wont need to ship raw materials,

you can just send a cad file anywhere in the world for 3d printing by company x

you can buy a print file from company A and print it at home app store style

well you still have to ship metal powder and plastic

3D SLS Is fraught with errors renishaw machines will abandon a print half way through if it finds a flaw ,you need guys who understand its not as simple as pushing a button to print a bobbin and even that building a cad model to be built properly in metal takes a bit of experience and lastly just on point 2 QC do you trust the guys you just sent your print files to because in the same way you can buy some real crap from china they can probably print some real crap too

People like to buy products at this time printing at home is fraught with problems if you buy a product and cant print it where do you go for a refund and how do you know its been done properly enough not to kill you....its a long way away before this starts to happen but boy do they like to plug this selling point buy online print at home

There are so many reasons to doubt it becoming mainstream in the nearfuture for mass production you couldn't cover them all here but the crown jewel at the minute is you cant print with any form of precision whatsoever, you still need to machine precise features in to parts unless you have one of these puppies

3D Printing and 5-Axis Machining Combined in One Machine > ENGINEERING.com

And for that money I can have 10 Hurcos sat milling away all day long before its printed a part

We used to make molds with SLA a long time before any of the carbon bike makers tried it in F1 but we invar coated the surfaces to survive curing, problem now is because adaptive machining cycles are so low in time to clear in CNC molds for lugs I can have cut and finished both parts of a lug before you have printed the mold its using something for using somethings sake

3d printing its just not prime time ready yet

Mike

Engineering director at some engineering company somewhere

www.bicyclemanufacturing.co.uk

instagram


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## woody74 (Apr 6, 2004)

Was chatting to Reynolds at the Bespoke show this weekend and they are about to produce a 3D printed titanium and stainless drop out set. By 3D printing they can make it hollow with internal support struts. Looked lovely and really organic. They said they were hoping to hit a price point around £130 which isn't bad compared to machined parts.


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## ru-tang (May 20, 2009)

*Here's my 3D printing in the bike industry*















I just printed out an adapter for carrying a spare RD hanger. It mounts onto my open FD mount.

Solidworks drawn, printed, bolted on. It works! Generation 2 will probably be flipped so it points the other way.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

ru-tang said:


> View attachment 982490
> View attachment 982491
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty sweet! Perfect application of the tech. I'm using SW as well, making small parts like that...it's an exciting process!

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## gumby. (Mar 11, 2013)

andrepsz said:


> Pretty sweet! Perfect application of the tech. I'm using SW as well, making small parts like that...it's an exciting process!


It looks like a perfect gratuitous application of the tech resulting in a convoluted solution to a simple problem. 
Why not mount it ambidextrous in the smaller hole and keep crud out of the thread? A piece of rubber tube would suffice as a reducer and a washer for a flange.


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## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

I 3D printed a jersey with pockets to carry my extra derailleur hanger.


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## Retro Dude (Jun 7, 2010)

*3D Printed parts*

Here's a shifter mount I've used for mounting thumb shifters on a 31.8 dirt drop bar:









I've also made custom stem spacers


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

gumby. said:


> It looks like a perfect gratuitous application of the tech resulting in a convoluted solution to a simple problem.
> Why not mount it ambidextrous in the smaller hole and keep crud out of the thread? A piece of rubber tube would suffice as a reducer and a washer for a flange.


To his world, it's a good solution...I don't think the goal here is to give a score on each case...but to see the opportunities that 3d printing is giving to us...the general population.

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## ru-tang (May 20, 2009)

disease said:


> I 3D printed a jersey with pockets to carry my extra derailleur hanger.


Maybe you could also 3D print some friends to ride with, but they would probably also think you are a moron


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## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

ru-tang said:


> Maybe you could also 3D print some friends to ride with, but they would probably also think you are a moron


Some children are so sensitive.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Retro Dude said:


> Here's a shifter mount I've used for mounting thumb shifters on a 31.8 dirt drop bar:
> 
> View attachment 982650
> 
> ...


How that thread is holding up...for the cable adjuster?

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## Retro Dude (Jun 7, 2010)

Good, it doesn't get adjusted too often plus it's a tight fit with the threaded adjuster.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Oldfatbaldguy said:


> I'm wondering about car-bone's bone-a-fides.
> Tries awfully hard to convince that he knows his stuff, but communicates like an angry teenager.
> My boss's son is in college right now completing his masters. He's in a program financed by a Detroit firm interested in applying ductile-and-malleable cast technology to micro-casting. You may have heard of them...they make automobiles. They have been 3d printing low-temp vaporizing polymers to use in pressure investment casting processes with some success.
> 
> His work would be an excellent starting point for custom investment-cast lugs from some exotic ferrous alloys. You'd better pony up extremely large for time in the lab, though.


Sorry I was drunk while I wrote most of those posts. And I shouldn't have written anything at all. But hey, I did. Sorry. My "expertise" really lies in steel and specifically classically hardenable steels, you know, quench then temper type steels. But to know stuff about that you will (in the end) know stuff about all other types of steels too and also all other crystalline metals, it all works the same to some extent.

Sometime in the future you will probably be able to print really good quality parts, I think it will take at least 10 years though. Most bike parts can still be made with a cordless drill, hacksaw and a file.

I'm not saying cast parts for bikes are sh1t though, I mean they work and have worked for like a hundred years now. But for me personally if I had the choice of forged and then machined parts vs cast or printed I would go for the forged, since I know its better (now in 2015 it is at least). I was really interested in buying a certain uk built cx frame but I found out it had cast dropouts and that alone made me deciede not to get it. Hey why take a chance right. I don't buy disposable things.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Retro Dude said:


> Good, it doesn't get adjusted too often plus it's a tight fit with the threaded adjuster.


Awesome...so the tight fit is actually digging the pla creating the thread probably...simple

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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Here is an experiment: emergency 3 in one tool Torx/Allen/slot for bits

Printed in stainless steel. The slot works perfectly but the Allen and Torx edges are not that strong...just enough to tight that screw and head back to the car










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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

how long did that take to print??


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

car bone said:


> how long did that take to print??


Third party did it for me...my design. Look into shapeways.

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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Yeah but do you have a time estimate or something? 10 mintes or 10 hours or 10 seconds?


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

No I don't, it might be withing 1-2hrs


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

ok. i see.

I'm guessing you could forge that in like 10 seconds or similar. and probably really good. in a factory. or maybe half that time.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Right...I could do that but only after spending hundreds or thousands in tooling.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

andrepsz said:


> Right...I could do that but only after spending hundreds or thousands in tooling.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


+1. Get real Car bone, this entire factory is the size of a big printer.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

I had this damaged Scott Twinloc without use and decided to fix the engagement teeth! So I've 3d printed in stainless.....and it worked!

Thinking better, I could have designed something even lighter shaving unnecessary material from this part.


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

New and innovative project in the oven!


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm waiting to see a frame part in this thread


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

made right in Sheffield England from powdered titanium 5 miles further west


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

There you go.

I'd have to see the fatigue test results to use that on the bike, but it would be really hard to machine economically


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

unterhausen said:


> There you go.
> 
> I'd have to see the fatigue test results to use that on the bike, but it would be really hard to machine economically


Far from it but that depends on what you class as economic ,that part machined, and we have been asked if we can machine that exact part if you go to my flikr you will see dropouts we machine for another company, it actually costs them less to machine them than importing them from another well known supplier to their own design, and from materials we used in industries which you wont have come across

As far as fatigue, this is very similar to 6al4v with two caveats the z build is mybe 5% weaker in UTS this function of sls is being improved upon almost daily you read of a fix, the second is that you cant fix stupid design ,in much the way people think 3d printing is a magic bullet to manufacturing it isn't stress risers and everything else an experienced engineer would account for DO NOT magically dissapear

But hey its a dropout at the end of the day not the lift fan on the f35

Sometimes however we make stuff because we can some people go ****ing apeshit.....others dontgiveashit


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## Farmer Rod (Jul 9, 2014)

Be interesting to see where this goes.

Joseph DeSimone: What if 3D printing was 100x faster? | TED Talk | TED.com


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Farmer Rod said:


> Be interesting to see where this goes.
> 
> Joseph DeSimone: What if 3D printing was 100x faster? | TED Talk | TED.com


Want!

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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

I find the 2 actual examples of bike component/frame parts exciting. I am of the older generation and thinking about setting up a computer to do this stuff daunting, but I can also see that its applications to the frame builders world a good development. It looks like the areas that need addressing such as speed of manufacture and finish are being looked at. Certainly, the finish, these parts look like sand cast items or heavily shot blasted. My area of concern because of our conventional thinking has to do with grain structures of the metals. Forging gives metal a certain strength with grain strength and the layering method used in the printing process leaves me unsure. I guess this maybe a perception issue, but I make the comment as I think this is the area where the sceptics struggle to accept this new development, but what if the bugs get sorted? What then......

Eric


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

Eric Malcolm said:


> but what if the bugs get sorted? What then......


Engineering jobs get sorted by who can make the best digital 3D models?

Grim, dude. I'm halfway decent at modeling and I still think it's grim.

To me it is a few steps away from "How does humanity define itself if it no longer has to perform physical labor to survive?"

...and that conversation can get real ugly real quick.

Happy fourth!

(FWIW I hope 3D printers gain a solid foot hold on making fast-adapt devices for amputees and things like that. My wife's a nurse, she opines the tech is outdated, "I feel like I'm looking at an iron lung with some people's prosthetics, compared to the stuff you've made in our basement")


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

Drew Diller said:


> Engineering jobs get sorted by who can make the best digital 3D models?
> 
> Grim, dude. I'm halfway decent at modeling and I still think it's grim.
> 
> ...


the prostetics industry too ka big leap when we designed this...unfortunately insurance companies are c***s
id forgotten all about it until i saw an article then i posted some images on my instagram


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

compositepro said:


> unfortunately insurance companies are c***s


:nod:


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## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

I'm a below the knee amputee myself since birth. Taught myself how to CAD model because I wanted to take advantage of 3D printing to make my prototypes...I'm developing my own prosthetic component with the intention to put in the market soon. Well...since I got good enough with my CAD skills...I'm also doing a bunch of bike components and having a lot of fun with it.

...so yes..3D printing to prosthetics...perfect application! to bicycle parts, in some areas such small parts is also a good application.


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## briderdt (Dec 14, 2012)

Drew Diller said:


> "How does humanity define itself if it no longer has to perform physical labor to survive?"


Ever see the movie Wall-E?


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

WOW, didn't see the dark side of all that.

We are living in a Technology boom that moved from steel to alloy to carbon and maybe, beyond.

Once, though I missed this period, Alloy pushed steel out and I expect there were those that wished they could have Hydroform tooling. Present day - its moulds and bladders.
Tomorrow, a printing machine.

I'm struggling to get my old eyes to be able to Tig Steel over Silvering - I'm a lost cause!!!

Eric


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

briderdt said:


> Ever see the movie Wall-E?


Yes, between that and Idiocracy, I thought I was watching a pair of preemptive documentaries.

@Eric, I am crabby and paranoid beyond my years. Is that why I'm posting here? (half kidding)


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## JD_OC (Mar 29, 2005)

I just found this thread and it was interesting reading the arguments of some saying 3d printing for mountain bikes is a long way off. Check out this:

Robot Bike Co R160 - First Look - Pinkbike

It's a bike that you can actually order, and while it is expensive, I'm actually surprised they got the price that low. A few years ago just the printed parts would have been over $10k. Also note that the Renishaw 3d printers use a laser melting process (so no binder) meaning the resulting parts are stronger than cast parts (99.7% density).

The price will go down and after another 2-5x reduction, this process could be ready for mass market.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I have said negative things about 3d printed bike parts in the past, probably in this thread. Mostly because of the price and availability of machines. However, the price reduction we are seeing changes things. There are definitely applications in bike frames. However, I don't see lugged carbon as being one of those applications just because there aren't (m)any consumers for bikes like that. Unless it's going to be a free bike. Steel lugs would be neat though.

Unfortunately, I predict just as many stupid 3d printed bike parts as interesting 3d printed bike parts in the future. We're still at the stage where you can get publicity for a halfhearted effort


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Eric Malcolm said:


> WOW, didn't see the dark side of all that.
> 
> We are living in a Technology boom that moved from steel to alloy to carbon and maybe, beyond.
> 
> ...


dont know what boom youre talking about. steel still has the highest strenght to weight ratio. steel goes to 6000MPa, just saying. like 10x of carbon.


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## cerebroside (Jun 25, 2011)

car bone said:


> dont know what boom youre talking about. steel still has the highest strenght to weight ratio. steel goes to 6000MPa, just saying. like 10x of carbon.


You mind elaborating a bit on this? Doesn't really match up with the numbers I've looked at.


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