# Rivendell Clem Smith Jr.



## El Sapo Rojo (Feb 24, 2011)

Just interested in some of your opinions on this bike. The last time I mentioned a Rivendell bike here I think the mods took it for some type of advertisement and deleted my post. I'm just trying to get some opinions and comments on a current designed "vintage style" bike.

Clem Smith Jr. Complete PRESALE

Here is Grant Petersons explanation of the bike

_BACKSTORY: In the mid-'90s poor mountain bike riders wanted shock forks like racers had, so bike makers put budget ones on all models above about $300. It helped sales, but turned durable workhorses into high-maintenance wimps, making the "obsolete" rigid-forked bikes more desirable, since they didn't go foul. By the early 2000s you could get a plain-forked late '80s mountain bike for $150 or less. In 2015, they're more scarce, cost $200 to $250,and inevitably needs $600 to $800 in parts and 7 hours of labor. That takes much of the pleasure out of fixing up a 25-year old bike that cost $700 new. 
_

It's really a bike that's aimed right at me. I started out wanting a Rivendell bike after I re-discovered biking and found that their store was is my area. But no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't pull the pin on a $3-$4K bike to ride for fun and exercise on my local paved bike trail. In retrospect, I've easily spent more than that over the past 5 years on 80's mountain bikes and components.

I've seen some criticism of the prices Grant used in his background explanation. My problems with the vintage stuff is that I covet the mint ($500-$600) original versions of the bikes, then when I have them and start riding them, I realize that I'd like a handlebar, seat, tire upgrade, and I'm scared to ride them much because, god forbid something happens to the rear hub or one of the derailleurs. I want to keep the thing original and those replacement parts are getting hard to find and when you do find them they are expensive. The bikes usually need new cables, and for me if I want the brakes and shifting to work correctly it takes a trip to the bike shop. So, $700-$800 is around what I have in the bike.

On the fixer upper side, I've powder coated ($150) a couple of $100 bikes and spent hours cleaning the original parts and $200 on accessories like tires and saddles and probably another $100 on bike shop labor. Those $100 bikes were still only worth $300 completely refurbished (in the Bay Area)

I'm sold on the Clem. It uses current versions of my preferred bike technology. Fully rigid with rim brakes. It looks more upright than it actually rides. I'm a fan of the Bosco Bullmose handlebars. Grant designed them, and I actually like how ugly they are. I've seen comments from people who read the info on the bike and focus on the components as being cheap. They don't realize that Grant is comparing them to the high end stuff people put on their $4K bikes. I'm no expert, but I'd bet the stuff on the Clem is probably superior to any similarly priced "name brand" bike.


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## Jak0zilla (May 16, 2010)

I love Rivendell (in concept), and I don't disagree with much of what you've written. 

But $1400 for a bike with steel chainrings, plastic pedals, no grips, and Sun Race "thumbies"? Ehhh. I know I wouldn't buy one. I think one of those 25 year old bikes, with an overhaul and some parts from the bike co-op/Ebay/CL would end up being nicer and cheaper. Only the really rare stuff is going for big money. LX, DX and even XT bikes are quite easy to find affordable spares for. I ride 7 speed gear on some of my bikes because of the $12 chain and $15 cassettes that every shop has on the shelf.

Hell, 14 franklins will buy you a really nice used Bridgestone with money left over for some mail order twine or beeswax.


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## El Sapo Rojo (Feb 24, 2011)

Jak0zilla said:


> I love Rivendell (in concept), and I don't disagree with much of what you've written.
> 
> But $1400 for a bike with steel chainrings, plastic pedals, no grips, and Sun Race "thumbies"? Ehhh. I know I wouldn't buy one. I think one of those 25 year old bikes, with an overhaul and some parts from the bike co-op/Ebay/CL would end up being nicer and cheaper. Only the really rare stuff is going for big money. LX, DX and even XT bikes are quite easy to find affordable spares for. I ride 7 speed gear on some of my bikes because of the $12 chain and $15 cassettes that every shop has on the shelf.
> 
> Hell, 14 franklins will buy you a really nice used Bridgestone with money left over for some mail order twine or beeswax.


It's hard to compare values because I think its a completely different market here in Northern Ca. when it comes to bike prices. You are lucky to be on the low side of things price wise, I'm on the higher side.

I've considered the possible upgrades you mentioned to the Clem, so yea, I'll put some money into the bike. I would no matter what it cost. The key difference for me are the design features of the frame. That's where it's not even close compared to an 80's MTB. If you are someone like me who road an 80's MB3, when they were new, this is going to be a comfortable easy to service bike for me to ride for the next 10 years. I appreciate that Riv/Grant didn't put the pop-marketable features into this bike. I feel comfortable riding the old MTB's, but for some reason, I think somebody of my "vintage" would look out of place and uncomfortable on say the new specialized AWOL


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## Jak0zilla (May 16, 2010)

Far be it for me to tell anyone how to spend their hard earned money. I enjoy looking at the Riv website and blog, and that kind of money will pay for a lot of web hosting. Thank you for supporting a cool company.


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## phattruth (Apr 22, 2012)

My brother-in-law has a few Rivendell randonneuring bikes in his stable. They're very well made and handle fantastic. 1400 is a pretty good deal for one of these.


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

I'd buy one. I have enough parts kicking around to sub-out the crap. 2 things I love about Rivendells: 1. they are looooong, so lanky me can get a good stretch 2. Have a look at the resale values and how long they stay on the market. If you're a serial bike-flipper, you can always move a Rivendell.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 26, 2006)

El Sapo Rojo said:


> I couldn't pull the pin on a $3-$4K bike to ride for fun and exercise on my local paved bike trail.


Just curious why you want 26" wheels for this. What about something like a Surly Cross Check with flat bars and Paul Thumbies? I used that combo for commuting on a MUT for a long time and it worked great. I did a high end build and still came in south of $1,000. Depending on the size frame the Surly Long Haul Trucker has 26" wheels in the smaller sizes.

To your original question, though, if it floats your boat, go for it.

Edit--found and old pic of the Surly when it had flat bars. It's amazing how fat a tire you can stuff in these


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## El Sapo Rojo (Feb 24, 2011)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Just curious why you want 26" wheels for this. What about something like a Surly Cross Check with flat bars and Paul Thumbies? I used that combo for commuting on a MUT for a long time and it worked great. I did a high end build and still came in south of $1,000. Depending on the size frame the Surly Long Haul Trucker has 26" wheels in the smaller sizes.
> 
> To your original question, though, if it floats your boat, go for it.
> 
> Edit--found and old pic of the Surly when it had flat bars. It's amazing how fat a tire you can stuff in these


The LHT is a bike I considered very seriously Henry. It's a really cool bike, and seems like good value for the money. I don't have anything bad to say about them. I would get close to buying one on CL, then think it was just a little too similar to the Stumpjumpers and the Ritchey I currently own. The Clem I'm getting is the medium and it comes with 650B wheels and 2" tires (Max 2.3 tire). It fits me like a glove and the 2" tires should be more than enough cushion for me. I'll probably try the Bruce Gordon Rock n Road 1.75" tires on it.

Hope you are right mainlyfats, the resale value is a reason I got into vintage bikes in the first place. You never really lose much of your investment no matter how badly you screw up. I really expect the same to be true of the Clem. I've got 6 bikes in the garage right now, so maybe I am a "serial flipper." My wife suggested that I sell a couple to finance this one. We'll see.


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## Fiskare (Sep 5, 2008)

El Sapo Rojo said:


> Just interested in some of your opinions on this bike.


I'm a bob from day one. If the Clem is the right bike get it. I rode a Romulus for years and know many of the Riv folks. There are not too many alternatives. But the Jones Plus and SJ 'sport'(s)(84ish) come to mind - each in their own way. Other Stumpies from the day will be similar to the 'sport'. If you have the dough buy the Clem and enjoy. Then tell us all about it and sell it to one of use for more than you have in it. I broke even on a Romulus frameset after at least 20k miles over about seven years. The point being the quality is there and so is the interest in such a design by GP. Riv does not suck. Personally, I like my 84 Stumpy sport.


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## iamkeith (Feb 5, 2010)

El Sapo Rojo said:


> Just interested in some of your opinions on this bike. The last time I mentioned a Rivendell bike here I think the mods took it for some type of advertisement and deleted my post. I'm just trying to get some opinions and comments on a current designed "vintage style" bike.


I've seen the criticisms about Grant's rationale for the bike, but I too think they're mostly baseless. As you point out, he's not comparing it to someone fixing up a mid-level, mass-produced, pedestrian model mountain bike. He's talking about higher end bikes that are comparable in quality to this one. More along the lines of the MB1 and MB2, for example, that he was responsible for. _Anyone_ in this forum can confirm that those are not unreasonable estimates to restore something at that end of the spectrum, and that such frames - along with "correct" parts - ARE getting harder and harder to find.

The other concept of the bike that they addressed more when the idea first germinated, but that they spend less time talking about now, was that of making something less "precious" than they usually do. Sort of a recognition that people should have a bike that they don't have to worry about parking in sketchy areas. That even if the bike itself doesn't get stolen, the components may. Or at least they'll get banged up in the bike rack. So the parts selection became an exercise in seeing how cheap they could spec something, without sacrificing functional quality and without stooping to Chinese made.

I actually have a frameset on order and am pretty certain that I was the first to pull the trigger when they first offered a frame-only option - thinking I could build most of a bike with what I have hoarded in spare parts. I'm glad I did because they ended up deciding to offer it only as a full build only, later on. I'm sure the parts will work great and are a helluva bargain, but I'm all about cleaning out my garage and finishing projects these days. I'm obviously a Rivendell fan, but this bike checks a lot of boxes for me too:

To start with, it's going to ride _much_ more comfortably as a towny/cruiser/loaded touring/camping bike than any high end 80's 90's race-geometry bike ever could. And it'll fit fatter tires _plus_ fenders.

I've personally wanted such a worry-free, go-to, daily "cruiser" for a long time, but I'm such a bike snob that nothing ever appealed to me. If I'm honest with myself though, that desire is really why I ever became enthralled with vintage mtbs., and is exactly what I've been hunting for through all of my restorations: Trying to recapture the simplicity of my college days in the mid 80's, when I only had one bike, and when that bike felt perfect for every task. (Oddly enough, the closest I've come - _the bike I ride more often than all others_ - was a complete accident that resulted from combining extremely _long_ chainstays and a Rivendell Bosco bar on an '88 Ritchey. Coincidence? Hmmmm....)









The coolest part of the Clem Smith Jr. Project is that it may be a historic first, as a production model, for an ENTIRE bike that scales up proportionately as the numeric size increases. Not just a taller seat tube and longer top tube, but a meaningfully taller head tube, larger diameter wheels, longer cranks, wider handlebars, and _longer chainstays_!!!! Has anybody else ever wondered why this isn't more the norm... other than cost savings and failure by designers to question obvious things?! I can't wait to glide along and carve some turns on that [email protected], bad boy!


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## El Sapo Rojo (Feb 24, 2011)

iamkeith said:


> To start with, it's going to ride _much_ more comfortably as a towny/cruiser/loaded touring/camping bike than any high end 80's 90's race-geometry bike ever could. And it'll fit fatter tires _plus_ fenders.
> 
> I've personally wanted such a worry-free, go-to, daily "cruiser" for a long time, but I'm such a bike snob that nothing ever appealed to me. If I'm honest with myself though, that desire is really why I ever became enthralled with vintage mtbs., and is exactly what I've been hunting for through all of my restorations:
> 
> ...


Great points Keith. You really captured the motivations that made me open my wallet for the first time in 30 years for a new bike.

We have a lot in common. I have the race geometry 85 Team Stumpy you refer to (skinny tires, race geometry), and have an 88 Ritchey (unlike yours). I restored and sold an 84 stumpy sport that I really enjoyed riding. The Ritchey rules the roost, but they all have their niche. I ride the stumpy team the most, but the tank like Ritchey is the most comfortable.

The more I think about it, the Clem will be a nice complementary piece. with it's own ride quality. I liked how it road. Not as upright as I thought it would be. I liked the bosco handlebars when I didn't expect to. Plus, it's lighter than I thought it would be. I've never used anything other than levers for shifting and usually only use 2-3 gears during a typical ride so the quirky placement of the levers doesn't bother me. I'll probably switch them out at some point but it's not a priority.

I'll put a Brooks flyer on it and R-n-R tires to make it mine.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

How long are those chainstays?


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## Jak0zilla (May 16, 2010)

colker1 said:


> How long are those chainstays?


2 cubits.


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## El Sapo Rojo (Feb 24, 2011)

From Rivendell

Normal chainstays are:
Racing road bikes: 40.5 to 41.5cm&#8230;less than 16 ½ inches.
Touring bikes: 42 to 43.5cm&#8230;less than 17 ½ inches, or an inch longer than road racing bikes.

Some 29ers go a little longer, but in the mainstream market (and including 99 percent of all artisanal customy bikes), it is rare to impossible to find chainstays as long as they should be. Our Roadeo's chainstays are 42 to 43-something, but it's our answer to the modern roadbike. Our other bikes start at 44.5cm-17 ½ inches-and go up to 56cm, which is a universe-shocking 22inches.

We had to have custom chainstays made to get them that long.

Full article on the long chainstay on their BLUG 
Grant says it's a trend we'll see on more bikes next year


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## datmony (Jul 12, 2012)

As a huge Bridgestone fan and owner of a crap ton of MB1s..... I continue to love the Rivendells and what Grant has been trying to do. The one thing I really regret bike wise was that when the first of the Rivendells were being made at Waterford, I didn't buy one. Once I saw the 1400/2400 in Waterfords own line up, I decided that if there was one sick frame I could buy at the time I would get that over the Rivendell. Now, I am still very very very did I mention very glad that I have one of the few Waterford mountain bikes kicking around..... I do so wish I could have had both and some day hope to stumble on one of those.

It is nice too that you are all focusing so much on the functional aspects of the Rivendells, since that would likely make Grant grin ear to ear. One thing you haven't mentioned though..... THEY ARE FREAKING GORGEOUS!!!! 

Go buy that thing, build it up, and post a ton of pictures so we can drool......


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

datmony said:


> As a huge Bridgestone fan and owner of a crap ton of MB1s..... I continue to love the Rivendells and what Grant has been trying to do. The one thing I really regret bike wise was that when the first of the Rivendells were being made at Waterford, I didn't buy one. Once I saw the 1400/2400 in Waterfords own line up, I decided that if there was one sick frame I could buy at the time I would get that over the Rivendell. Now, I am still very very very did I mention very glad that I have one of the few Waterford mountain bikes kicking around..... I do so wish I could have had both and some day hope to stumble on one of those.
> 
> It is nice too that you are all focusing so much on the functional aspects of the Rivendells, since that would likely make Grant grin ear to ear. One thing you haven't mentioned though..... THEY ARE FREAKING GORGEOUS!!!!
> 
> Go buy that thing, build it up, and post a ton of pictures so we can drool......


The first All Rounders w/ 26in tires, drop bar, friction downtube shifters, lugged double triangle w/ no top tube slope are some of the most beautifull, seriously functional bikes i have ever seen in pictures. I belive Grant is a visionary as gravel , all rounder bicycles are taking the mainstream. I am not taken by the Clem Smith transatlatic passenger ship chainstays but keep my respect to the man's vision not to mention his design coherence.

EDIT: A 38/24 double chinring crank is my next move on my mtb, just like he is doing on the Clem


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

What's a cubit? 


Jak0zilla said:


> 2 cubits.


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## Obi (Oct 16, 2005)

Seeing I just got done talking with Grant this past week, and looked at both of the pre-production built-up frames he had in the shop (diamond frame and step-thru frame) I'm going to say they're a great idea that incorporates the traditional approach to what works, and going with it.

There's three frame sizes, the smallest get's 26" wheels, the middle get's 27.5's, and the largest get's 29's. 

Mostly tig'd frame with select lugging, decent parts spec, and the ability to go up or down in drivetrain and ergo kit makes it a solid idea.

I have the 4 page yellow pre-production spiff flyer about them, so if he hasn't put it up on the web ( rivbike.com ) yet I'll happily share it with someone who wants to post it.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

I was really interested in the Clem, but the standover is higher than I like in my large size. Of course, there's the Clementine version with the dropped top tube, but I don't think I'm man enough to ride that (though I find the Cheviot more appealing for some reason)


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## Jak0zilla (May 16, 2010)

jeff said:


> What's a cubit?


The length of Grant's arm, from elbow to fingertip. 

(Actually to be fair it looks more like 1.25 cubits.)


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Jak0zilla said:


> The length of Grant's arm, from elbow to fingertip.
> 
> (Actually to be fair it looks more like 1.25 cubits.)


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## El Sapo Rojo (Feb 24, 2011)

The first shipment of Clem and Clementine bikes is sold out. 

Here's hoping for a nice big price increase for the next shipment!


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

I like the lugs on this bike - which likely drive up the price quite a bit over a standard TIG welded frame. The lugs look much nicer, but some people aren't going to pay more for them - and that's okay. The stays will put this in competition with the "Long Haul Trucker." For hauling stuff and heavy bike camping this would be make a nice frame. For performance riding, likely not such a good frame. I can see the market, but it's not a bike that I'd be interested in. But if you want to go bikepacking, carry the kitchen sink with you, and do it in style this is the frame to buy.


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## El Sapo Rojo (Feb 24, 2011)

It's pretty sweet


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## 2:01 (May 10, 2010)

Apologies for reviving this old thread. I’m a long-time Riv owner and I was glad to find this thread.

I’ve had a Hunqapillar for the longest time. Great riding bike. Only issue I had was the max tire clearance was 29x2.2” (and that’s skinny, smaller knobbied examples). For the trails I ride, I was looking for a little more girth and better tread.

Gus Boots Willsen seemed like an obvious choice, with plus size clearance. I rode one and it was exactly what I was looking for. It was also very hard to get, unfortunately.

Enter the Clem. Riv says max clearance is 2.4”, but I got a 2.5” in there with ease. Ride is sublime with the uber long chainstays. It’s fantastic on trails. And the ride to and from the trailhead. Honestly can’t tell much difference between it and the Gus. It’s half the price as well. And wet paint! (I do not like powder coat). It’s a great buy.

I got the “L” version. “Girls” bike. I like it. Step through is cool. Should age well, as I age. 

Thanks to Grant and the rest of very professional and knowledgeable crew at Rivendell.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

2:01 said:


> Apologies for reviving this old thread. I’m a long-time Riv owner and I was glad to find this thread.
> 
> I’ve had a Hunqapillar for the longest time. Great riding bike. Only issue I had was the max tire clearance was 29x2.2” (and that’s skinny, smaller knobbied examples). For the trails I ride, I was looking for a little more girth and better tread.
> 
> ...


Ths Hunqapillar is a most sought after bike... It´s the bike everybody thought was wrong and ten years later it´s the bike to have. Interesting how many times this happens around Rivendell products. When it comes to legacy, Grant brought to the table this list: fat tires on all biks, 650B wheels, bike camping, return of steel handmade frames, return of lugs, return of steel forks, Nitto everything, canvas bags, Brooks saddles.. Gravel? Grant was doin it before including every guy in Portland. i can´t remember one single Riv flop: every radical departure from the norm he takes looks more and more ridiculous when released but more and more influential in ten years time. He was bashed and ridiculed on snobs websits when Riv had financial troubles but he is one of the most inflential bike designers of the last 30 years.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Good, long time friend and customer of mine is best pals with Grant. He was one of the principal investors that helped launch Rivendell. 

So I had the honor and privilege of being seated next to Grant at my pals wedding, since Grant was out of his element, and having a fellow bike geek to chat with was a big plus. So many good stories.

Totally agree, he's had shade thrown at him for many years due to his approach, yet, kinda like Surly, the stuff that;s come out of his house, has proven to be right, time and time again....


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

Posts like this make me miss my old Clem. Maybe I'll pick one up in the future, the "L" this time (coming from having owned two "H" models).



2:01 said:


> Apologies for reviving this old thread. I’m a long-time Riv owner and I was glad to find this thread.
> 
> I’ve had a Hunqapillar for the longest time. Great riding bike. Only issue I had was the max tire clearance was 29x2.2” (and that’s skinny, smaller knobbied examples). For the trails I ride, I was looking for a little more girth and better tread.
> 
> ...


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## 2:01 (May 10, 2010)

colker1 said:


> Ths Hunqapillar is a most sought after bike... It´s the bike everybody thought was wrong and ten years later it´s the bike to have. Interesting how many times this happens around Rivendell products. When it comes to legacy, Grant brought to the table this list: fat tires on all biks, 650B wheels, bike camping, return of steel handmade frames, return of lugs, return of steel forks, Nitto everything, canvas bags, Brooks saddles.. Gravel? Grant was doin it before including every guy in Portland. i can´t remember one single Riv flop: every radical departure from the norm he takes looks more and more ridiculous when released but more and more influential in ten years time. He was bashed and ridiculed on snobs websits when Riv had financial troubles but he is one of the most inflential bike designers of the last 30 years.


I’m hearing he’s going to retire in the not too distant future. I wonder how Rivendell will change under a new ownership. Maybe Grant will still be on the “board.” But it’ll be tough to replace him and keep the ethos of the company alive. As he IS rivendell. Just as Elon is Tesla and Jobs was Apple.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

It seems like Grant is mentoring Will to take over--Will handles the weekly emails, and he designed some of the Rosco Bubbe frames. But it would definitely be a different company without Grant.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

seat_boy said:


> It seems like Grant is mentoring Will to take over--Will handles the weekly emails, and he designed some of the Rosco Bubbe frames. But it would definitely be a different company without Grant.


Grant was selling hatchets when everybody was still talking about xc racing. He was on drop bars and when everybody started using drop bars he moved on to upward bars. There is a generation who now wants bike camping and heavier bikes.... w/ 1x and discs but Grant insists on front derrailleurs because there is no need to get rid of front shifting if you spec long chainstays. He will order a shipment of frames like that before creating hype on instagram. Whoever succeeds him needs to have huge ballz to go against the tide 7 days of the week like Grant does.


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