# riding on ketogenic diet - who's doing it?



## manbeer (Oct 14, 2009)

The purpose of this isn't to explain a keto diet but there is a plethora of information out there for those that are interested. To give a quick summary it is basically what atkins diet was derived from. Mainly fats and protein, very few carbs (~20g a day net. Ymmv) 
Your body may go through a crash period for a couple days a little ways into it where you feel sick and lethargic but after you break your reliance on carbs you feel great

Anyway i have done this off and on for a little over a year. The first time i lost 20 lbs and 4 percent body fat in a month with no working out, all while eating cheese and bacon. Even better was the fact that i had more energy than i have had since i was a kid and i didnt really get hungry ever. 

Now, it is not usually recommended to do high intensity cardio on these diets for a few reasons. I wont get into it but rather will share my experience. Last year i did quite a bit of riding using strava and what i found was exactly what i thought. Most of the time on this diet i was faster. There were a few times that i was freakishly fast before but also days that i was a slug. Keto diet gave me consistency. 


Meaning on my road rides instead of going from 16 on a crappy day, 17.5 average and 19 on a perfect day, i was between 17.5 and 18 every day. The only downside that i found was that my energy reserves were not quite as good for sprinting, climbing difficult hills etc. All in all it was a good tradeoff though. Also sometimes while eating normally i get almost violently hungry while i ride. Like i would fight someone for food. Not so on the diet

Anyway, the purpose of this thread was to see what others experiences were with this and maybe encourage a few others to research it and give it a shot. Im back on it and feel better than i ever did eating carbs.


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## Joshua_B (Oct 1, 2011)

No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

Joshua_B said:


> No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.


+1 LOL Good Fing luck... High Carb/Low Fat will get you ripped and fast on a bike.


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## manbeer (Oct 14, 2009)

Joshua_B said:


> No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.


Actually atkins didnt die of heart disease but rather as a result of a fall he had, thats a common rumor though

I felt the same way until i tried the diet, but using ketones for fuel gives much more consistency. I have as much energy now as i did when i was 16, where as before i had ups and downs no matter what. Its hard to put into words the effect it has but the additional energy is very noticeable


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I thought ketones were a by product of breaking down fat stores to supply energy in the form of ATP, rather than the actual source of the energy.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

According to the book "Paleo Diet for Athletes", you should increase your carb intake before and after an event.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

A keto diet is prescribed in certain medical conditions, most notably epilepsy and certain cancers. It is altering your body chemistry, In those specific medical conditions, altering the chemistry is the point, part of the treatment, and the patient remains under a doctor's care.

People without specific medical conditions should not routinely go keto. Very few people remain on these fad diets very long, so no major harm will be done. In a few months most people will slip back into a normal (healthier) eating pattern.

Since 1920 an estimated 23,000 fad diet books have been written. Not one has withstood the test of time and proven effective in the long run.


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## Guest (May 5, 2014)

Joshua_B said:


> No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.


One of the most ignorant comments that can be found on MTBR. Good job.


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## Joshua_B (Oct 1, 2011)

No the fad diets are the definition of ignorant.


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

Joshua_B said:


> No the fad diets are the definition of ignorant.


Fad, unhealthy, and unsustainable.


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## Devincicx (Nov 20, 2011)

I don't think his comment was 100% ignorant. What is the point of low carbs anyway? Are carbs the ennemi?

Training or practicing whatever endurance sport on a very low carb diet is just a bad idea. There are way too many body functions running on carbs. Carbs supports training adaptations, immune function and performance overall. 

Experts recently stated it quite clearly, any endurance athlete wishing to perform should rely on carbohydrates before, during and after training. There is hardly any way you will come around this very simple fact.


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## Guest (May 5, 2014)

"What is the point of low carbs anyway? Are carbs the ennemi?"

Not universally, but in many cases they are. More directly put, high glycemic index carbs and fructose are absolutely the "ennemi". Frutose is literally a poison.

"Training or practicing whatever endurance sport on a very low carb diet is just a bad idea."

Don't know where this "training ... endurance sport" business came from, but you're displaying the same ignorance as others are.

"There are way too many body functions running on carbs. Carbs supports training adaptations, immune function and performance overall."

Your body doesn't run directly on carbs and there are NO essential carbs. Oxygen supports "training adaptations, immune function and performance overall", as do fats and proteins. What you have said is meaningless.

"Experts recently stated it quite clearly, any endurance athlete wishing to perform should rely on carbohydrates before, during and after training. There is hardly any way you will come around this very simple fact."

Since when did this become about "endurance athletes" and when did you get to choose the "experts"? This thread is about riding on a low-carb diet, not about performing at the very highest levels on one.

Low carb diets aren't a fad except to the uninformed.


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

craigsj said:


> "What is the point of low carbs anyway? Are carbs the ennemi?"
> 
> Not universally, but in many cases they are. More directly put, high glycemic index carbs and fructose are absolutely the "ennemi". Fructose is literally a poison.
> 
> ...


"Fructose or Fruit Sugar is ONLY a problem when Fat content is high. Fat blocks the wall of the veins and arteries. This causes high blood sugar levels. So no, Fructose by it self is not a poison." Dr. Graham

"Adenosine Triphosphate and Gluclose work directly with one another. So without SUGAR there is very little intracellular energy transfer."

"Fruit Sugar is your friend, Fat is your enemy."

FYI I eat nearly 700 Carbs per day. I'm 165lbs and 7% BF


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

I have been paleo for 2 years. High fat, low carbs diet.
I do not think the word "diet" properly describes my eating habits, it is more of a lifestyle and I do not feel limited in any way.

I have had some inflammation problems, which had lead me to try different diets in the past and paleo has worked the best.
I am not 100% off the fructose, since I consume a significant portions of fruit (trying to limit it though to 20g/day), but have been successful to increase my intake of vegetables (in all forms - raw, cooked, juiced...)
Besides the high quality fruit and vegetables I eat mostly organic grass fed chickens and beef. Wild caught low mercury fish 2-3x a week. Duck, Game, Lamb...
Grass fed eggs.
Sprouted nuts and seeds.
Very little dairy.
No rice, no potatoes (occasionally have sweet potatoes), no grains (no bread or pasta.) No legumes, only occasionally sprouted been hummus.

We (I and my wife) prepare about 95% of our meals at home.

My diet also consist of high quality fat (ghee, grass fed butter, lard, goose and duck fat, organic bacon fat, coconut oil, macadamia oil, olive oil for cold salads...)

I do feel much healthier and energetic. My inflammation is under control. All my blood test have been very good. 
I am free of any pharmaceutical drugs. 
I use natural supplements, anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidants. I am not very strict about this and do not take them on regular basis.
But when I do it is vit. D and K, omega oils, curcumin, msm, astaxanthin, magnesium...

I rarely drink alcohol, not even beer (I know, weird...) 
But I like beneficial herbal teas - rosehip, ginger, nettle, licorice...
I never consume regular sugar, use raw honey and maple syrup instead.

I have always been lighter with 140lbs and 5'9" and it has not changed since being paleo, if anything I have harder time to gain more weight . Which can be a challenge with low carbs...

I usually bring some boiled eggs, bacon, nuts and fruit on my longer rides and it works for me.
I do not race though so I can't comment on that.
I am also practicing intermittent fasting - I eat only in 6-8 hour window, usually from 11am to 6pm. So I don't eat prior or during my morning rides, unless they last more than 3 hours.

Another important thing is a good night sleep. I struggle sometimes with this simply because I lack the discipline to get in bed on time


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## Guest (May 6, 2014)

I lost 20 lbs.
I eat rib eye steaks.
I drink beer (lots).
I'm not on a diet.
I *quit processed foods*.


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## Devincicx (Nov 20, 2011)

craigsj said:


> "What is the point of low carbs anyway? Are carbs the ennemi?"
> 
> Not universally, but in many cases they are. More directly put, high glycemic index carbs and fructose are absolutely the "ennemi". Frutose is literally a poison.
> 
> ...


You clearly lack basic nutritional and physiological knowledge, you should not call people ignorant especially when saying fructose is a poison and oxygen supports training adaptation and immune function. Go read a bit before dismissing what people have to say regarding you ''belief'' based on actual knowledge on nutrition and physiology.

Stop claiming people say meaningless stuff just because it hurts your pretty darn stupid dogma.

Go ahead, neg rep me and go read another bro-science blog out there.


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## TopGearTilly (Jul 11, 2014)

My dad had 5 stints put in his heart and his blood results were horrible. He went Ketogenic probably a half year ago and he has dropped 60 pounds, his blood test have come back off the charts good, and he has more energy than i've ever seen. He's been taken off all his heart meds and all the other stuff he was on and just takes vitamins now.

Anywho, I of course am my fathers son just younger. My blood test are horrible and i'm sure heart disease is in my future. HOWEVER, I do Ironmans and centuries for fun and my dad doesn't. I really really want to know how to fuel for longer events? What have you (the ones not knocking this lifestyle change, not diet) been doing to fuel on longer rides?

I've been reading through Peter Attia's EatingAcademy and i've noticed he eats Keto all the time, but uses just enough carbs for fuel during some events.... what are you all doing?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

What are you eating now?


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## TopGearTilly (Jul 11, 2014)

Honestly I haven't changed my bike diet because I know what works, but to remain in ketosis I will need to change it. I do the typical Gu's, Cliff Bars, and usually Accelerade in my bottles... but that is nothing good for a Keto diet.


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## TopGearTilly (Jul 11, 2014)

I'm afraid that yo yo'ing by eating lots of carbs on the bike/run then going back to 70% plus in fat, that can’t be good. My body will be confused and not know whether it should be processing the carbs or ketones. It’s hard to find any athletes, other than Peter Attia, that tell you how they fuel for longer events while on this lifestyle. I want to hear what others are doing.


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## michael1 (Nov 17, 2011)

irishpitbull said:


> FYI I eat nearly 700 Carbs per day. I'm 165lbs and 7% BF


I hope you realize that this is a mind-bogglingly small amount--a single carb weighs far less than a speck of dust. You've probably already died of starvation.


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## sjhiker (Apr 25, 2008)

Does anybody still do Keto around here? I've cut out pasta, bread and processed foods.


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## skarin (Jun 2, 2006)

I do, I have been for about 2 months now. I'm not on the "keto diet" but am in ketosis. I don't eat as much fat as the keto diet calls for. I'm eating a pretty low calorie, moderate fat, moderate protein diet. I keep my carbs usually under 40g and I try to eat around 100g of protein a day. So far it's been working for me. I've lost over 20 lbs and about 6% of body fat. Every week I've been losing about 2 lbs of body fat. 

My riding and fitness in the beginning of the diet was definitely rough. I just felt awful. I must have become "keto adapted" because my last few rides have been amazing. I'm riding faster, have ridiculous endurance, and definitely having more fun. I never get any heaviness in my legs, never get any cramping. I have gone on much longer rides with more climbing and have not bonked. Not even close. What I'm lacking is power. Long sustained climbs are fine, short steep climbs are fine, but if I get a long steep climb I hit the wall pretty quickly. I'm ok with this tradeoff. Once I get to my ideal weight / fat percentage I'll start adding some really healthy plant based carbs back in my diet.

I do have to plan my snacks pretty carefully. I'll eat some strawberries or a cup of blueberries before a ride. And then I'll bring some almonds, and prosciutto (i know weird) for snacks along the way if it's a long ride. I'm finding I need a lot more water than before. And usually need to eat some protein as soon as my ride is over or I feel terrible.

The increase in my endurance has been one of the most surprising things about this diet. Also, for some reason running is so much harder on this diet. Biking feels great though.


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

I have been on a modified ketogenic diet for close to 2 years. By far the best thing I ever did, and I was relatively healthy to begin with.

Truth is that everyone is indeed different, but not that much. I personally am somewhere between keto and primal, once you understand it you can adopt it to suite you and your lifestyle. I thrive this way, have never felt better in my life. I did the research myself, starting with reading Gary Taubes (you can watch some videos on youtube) and Robert Lustig. You don't need to pay for any of this knowledge, it is all out there available. When in doubt, follow the scientific community at all times. 

If anyone needs any clarifications or direction to begin, I will answer anything I can. It really is important to understand the harm done by grains and sugars specifically. Just because we can sustain ourselves on them doesn't mean we thrive on them. 

Mountain biking is very well suited for this type of diet, it's probably why I love doing it so much. I turned 50 this year and feel like a teenager for the first time in decades. Sorry if I sound like an advertisement, but this topic gets me upset when I see how unhealthy we have become.


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## Popping Knees (Dec 11, 2014)

I've been low carb high fat for 16 months. Being moderately to highly fat adapted is working well for my weekly rides. I'm 48 and now feel like I'm in my 20's again. My triglycerides/cholesterol ratios are fantastic. My lap times are better than they were in the 90's. Granted modern bike equipment is also a huge contributor to better speed. Screw the haters.


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

Couldn't agree more, Popping.

I just turned 50 this year and feel like i'm in my teens again. Personally I thrive on this diet and love the food. Give me an organic steak with 3 fried eggs on it any day of the week over pasta or bread.


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## Popping Knees (Dec 11, 2014)

Grok, a steak and 3 eggs sounds delicious. That would fuel one heck of a ride with energy to spare when you're finished. 
I'm still experimenting with pre-ride carb intake to maximize leg strength for the trail. I would like to hear from more LCHF riders on what works well for those hills or straightaways that require some "explosive" power. The carb requirements seem to vary in my experience. 50-125 grams seem to be the range for me. My rides are usually 2 hours or less in the late afternoon. Post-ride I often will fast till the next day. That's a fast without hunger of course.


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## Popping Knees (Dec 11, 2014)

I failed to mention the greatest thing about being fat adapted is I can have a great ride with out worrying about eating. Fat stores alone can fuel a fast and furious MTB ride.


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

Popping, every Sunday I wake up, do 20 min of high intensity weights, then bike up to the mtn for 2 hours. All this without anything to eat since the night before (with the exception of maybe a spoon of peanut butter before weights, my only indulgence in legumes). 

If I do ever feel hungry beforehand, maybe 4 eggs over and swimming in organic butter, with a sprinkling of parmesan cheese, pepper, garlic and oregano.

I mostly eat a great supper, with meats, chicken or fish and many green leafy veggies either sauteed or in a salad with heavy dressing. I start the day with a few coffees with 35% cream and will not eat anything till around 1pm. Then it really depends on my mood, anything from nothing to something with meat and a salad, or maybe an Italian Sausage with a coffee.

I really enjoy working out without eating anything, but I don't have any set rules. I eat when hungry and stop when not. 

Only problem is that now that summer is ending I am biking close to 4 or 5 times a week. This is way to much and creating to much appetitive and exhaustion, and a slight weight gain...but I don't care, it doesn't feel like effort as I enjoy every minute of it. Last 2 weeks I stopped the weights and do 5 quick sets of max pull ups before biking, 3 times a week.

Bottom line is that biking should be when you want it, and I don't think you need to worry about pre loading anything if you are eating well. If properly fat adapted it's great to exercise on an empty stomach, you will truly be metabolizing fat.

Petter Attia, Steven Phinney and Jeff Volek are some people that you can read or look for interviews on youtube regarding high intensity workouts on ketogenic diets. It's starting to become knowledge that you don't need any carbs at all even when over exercising. 

I should probably have more cheat meals than I actually do, just to always shock your body and change your routine, but I just love the food and the feeling way to much.


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## Popping Knees (Dec 11, 2014)

Here's a playlist I started recently. Attia"s low carb performance may be the best of this list.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

Humans evolved without eating a ton of carbs (obviously some were part of the diet). The vast majority of food was meat, fat and vegetables/plants. 

When we started to farm (very recently) we switched to a high carb diet and it keeps shifting further and further towards high carbs because carbs are cheap/calorie. In contrast to what some of the earlier posters posted, high carb diets are unnatural. Low carb under about 100-150g is probably about right.

Im still trying to figure out nutrition. The first week I did not feel great, but 6 weeks in I feel pretty good. Im trying to stay less than 50g carbs, but I think most days Im below 30g. Im in ketosis according to the strips. Losing about 1 lb weight a week, hoping it is fat.

For me I still get cramping after a 2.5 hours because of nutrition. I can generally resolve this by eating tums with magnesium. Even with a lot of cramping, they will be gone within a few minutes after eating tums. After about 3 hours my legs are heavy/tired. Havent gone further to see if it is resolved with eating fat.

Usually I need a gu about every hour for a 3 hour+ ride, but I have been doing 3 hour rides with no additional nutrition so that is a plus. Im about to start doing 4-6 hour rides in a week so Ill find out how well it works.

My preride food used to be peanut butter and jelly, I just bought some packaged coconut oil to experiment with. Also carry peanut butter. 

I personally dont like fueling with protein as it is so heavy.


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## Popping Knees (Dec 11, 2014)

Goodmojo, keep us updated on your coconut oil experiment. I am fairly certain a few heaping spoonfuls before a two hour ride is beneficial. I take it when I leave the house and will be on the trail within 15 minutes.


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

It's normal to feel as bad as the Keto" flu, look it up. My daughter endured 10 days of it.

In general, increase salt, magnesium (in the form of a citrate) and potassium.

Your body will release much water that is is holding with glycogen. When it releases it it will sacrifice both magnesium and potassium but end up losing all three.

Usually: (I many be off one one).
Head ache, nausea = Eat some salt
Muscle cramp = Magnesium
Muscle Fatigue = Potassium

*some places sell Half Salt which is half salt half potassium.

Real chicken broth will do wonders. This is the time it takes for your body to become fat adapted. There are better articles about this with diet doctor (Andreas) and Dr. Sisson. Many adapt within even a week.

Once you are truly adapted, you shouldn't need to re-anything, eat as you always do. This Sunday 2 hours into my ride my wife called delaying something due to her brother....so I ended up biking for 3.5 hours. I hadn't eaten since the night before and could have gone on for hours. Once you are truly fat adapted enjoy your meals when you want to.

Remember: When we were hunter gatherer's we could go days with out any food and not feel bothered. Once we ate we also never felt bloated and lethargic. UNTIL CARBS CAME ALONG. Please remember that it's all about the *insulin*. Always!

Here is a definition of it. I am more ketogenic, but this should explain it better.

What Does it Mean to Be Fat-Adapted? | Mark's Daily Apple


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

Popping Knees said:


> Goodmojo, keep us updated on your coconut oil experiment. I am fairly certain a few heaping spoonfuls before a two hour ride is beneficial. I take it when I leave the house and will be on the trail within 15 minutes.


Did a 43 mile 5 hour ride (most road) without a ton of elevation, only 2000 ft of elevation.

Only about 7 miles of trail, almost completely fat. All the elevation was road.

Im prepping for an 85 mile ride so want to get the nutrition right.

I was out the door sat morning without eating anything because of a tight schedule. Realized it once I was in the ride, but it was too late. I brought a couple of these coconut oil packets and some gus just in case.

about 3 hours in I was starting to feel fatigue so ate a coconut oil pack (Amazon.com : Kelapo Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, 10-Count Pouches : Coconut Oil Single Packs : Grocery & Gourmet Food) . Turns out it hardened from the chilled camelbak water so it was actually crispy. It also tasted sweet even though there is no sugar in it.

Ate another coconut oil about an hour later. Legs werent feeling great so I also ate a gu. About 4.5 hours in ate another gu after my legs were cramping. I road through the cramps then ate the gu and tums for the last big climb

Ate 2 tums at 3 hours, another 2 at 4 and another 2 at 4.5 hours.

The nutrition is definitely different. Im not sure whether the oil is going to be enough. Maybe I need to eat more of it?

Next week I will do 50-55 miles and will be adding in another 1000 feet of elevation. Im starting my training way late so am not in shape at all.


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## Popping Knees (Dec 11, 2014)

Goodmojo, that was a long ride! You are really Keto adapted to get that done without a meal. 
I would think a meal of high fat, moderate protein and moderate carbs would be good for a ride of that duration. I've read that Prof. Noakes has his ultra marathon runners take in 250 grams of carbs on the day of the event. Something like a loaded baked potato might work well. I had a strong ride recently with scrambled eggs, bacon and a large avocado just prior to riding. 
I don't know if more coconut oil during a ride would help. I think I'm going to try that experiment next. 
Your cramping does not sound very pleasant. I often take potassium and magnesium tablets before and after a ride to help prevent cramping.


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

been doing the keto thing for 10 months with the odd slip up here and there with complex carbs....my body doesn't react well when i do that.

so far i have lost 10kg

no more highs and lows in energy levels

i can ride a lot more without feeling low on energy 

my bloods came back normal 6 months in and pressure was normal

i do get issues with bowel movements.....but work pays for me to sh*t right lol

i am going to keep at it....and avoid that evil chocolate


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

goodmojo, those are some serious rides. I would say that if you enjoy the coconut then go for it. If not find something you prefer. 

In principal someone with 6% body fat has about 3 months worth of calories should they ever need them. Although biking should not require you to do anything more than eating healthy regularly, I can see how your very long rides can be an exception. 

I would agree to try the high fat moderate protein in all your meals. Personally I do not eat more than about 20g of carbs a day and cheat very seldom, but lately doing more than 3 of my 2 hour rides a week is to tiring. 

One thing i did this summer is listen to my body more often. My rides are so much fun and therapeutic that I do not realize how many calories I burn. I reduced weights for now because I am trying to get as many rides in before winter, probably about 4 weeks left.

Missionary, good for you about the weight loss. I tell people I would have done this regardless of the weight. The constant energy levels and clarity of mind, better sleep, are what I was most impressed with.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

For those who like coconut oil. Nice fast paleo desert recipe. 
I use 100% organic ingredients.

Shreaded coconut
Unrefined coconut oil
Raw 100% cacao powder
Maple syrup
Vanilla extract
Himalayan salt

Mix and enjoy.

This doesnt have to be kept in the fridge, but if you do, take it out 15min before you consume it, it tastes better soft.
You can also form it into little balls and refrigerate.
Use cacao, dont use cocoa.
I take them on my longer rides.
Cacao is loaded with magnesium, which also helps when riding.
Have been paleo for 4 years.


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

jazzanova said:


> For those who like coconut oil. Nice fast paleo desert recipe.
> I use 100% organic ingredients.
> 
> Shreaded coconut
> ...


How much of each?


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

bogeydog said:


> How much of each?


It depends on how you like it.
If you want it moist, use more oil. 
If you want it chocolate intense, use more cacao.
The same with the maple syrup.
Just use a bag of shreaded coconut and add about 5tbs of oil, 5tbs of cacao, 1ts of vanilla extract, pinch or two of salt (good for long rides too), 1 tbs of syrup.
I dont use any measuring spons though, just play it by ear.
You can also add more of everything.

I ususally use a bag of shreaded coconut. I like "Let's Do Organic Finely Shredded Unsweetened Coconut, 8 Ounce"

https://jet.com/product/detail/eaca...1b24c86d041f&gclid=CIOOgOfpsMgCFQqGfgodVQYFvw

I go through the oil fast, so usually get this:
Vitacost Extra Virgin Certified Organic Coconut Oil - Non-GMO -- 54 fl oz
http://m.vitacost.com/products/vitacost-extra-virgin-certified-organic-coconut-oil-non-gmo-54-fl-oz

Cacao:
Navitas Naturals Organic Cacao Powder -- 16 oz
http://m.vitacost.com/products/navitas-naturals-organic-cacao-powder-16-oz


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

We should try and put together a list of keto/paleo food ideas. Anything from great meals and sides to simple snacks.


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh475IKeUB8EU0eCun79lxQ


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## Chowder Head (Sep 26, 2010)

I follow the Keto King, Dr. Attia, and am going to try what he uses for longer rides while on a ketogenic diet,

https://www.generationucan.com/

he says it is a slower burning super starch and doesn't mess with his being in ketosis. I haven't tried it yet but plan on it when my current jug of Perpetuem runs out.

Another thing that Dr. Attia has talked about are the new exogenous ketones that are available, you can do a search for Peter Attia and find some vids where he discusses both.

Prüvit: Every. Single. Day. : Prüvit

I just ordered some from this co. to give it a go for myself and the wife, since it's supposed really kick start weight loss, I'll report back.


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

I very much admire the work Dr. Attia has done, but I wouldn't suggest anyone actually need this (superstarch) or any supplement to kick start fat loss (also don't forget that he is an elite athlete).

The key is to eat healthy real foods. Avoid the grains, sugars and starches. Once you achieve a particular weight, cheat as often as your body allows you, based on your own needs.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

This is exactly how I utilize carbs, works great. Fat is my all day energy, carbs are my pre/intra for the weight room or biking. Doing it this way carbs are used,and not stored in the liver.


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## Flat Ark (Oct 14, 2006)

I went Keto for a while. While on the bike I was fine at steady state efforts into Zone 3. When I tried to ramp it up and do anaerobic efforts I just felt flat like I had no real kick. I would actually get that feeling like I was about to bonk...What works best for myself is a diet of primarily unprocessed foods. My daily diet has come to be centered around sweet potatoes. No particular reason. Just kind of worked out that way. I just rinse one off and throw it in the microwave for 6 minutes. I eat the skin and all. Not sure what they do once in my body but my appetite, energy and brain function seem to be really balanced and level throughout the day. I eat 2 per day on average. I don't fuel on the bike during base but once I start ramping things up I usually make my own gel using this recipe.http://www.backcountry.com/explore/how-to-make-energy-gel

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## Chowder Head (Sep 26, 2010)

Interesting Flat Ark, I think like they say, "diet is very individual", seams to be very true. How long were you in Ketosis?


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## Flat Ark (Oct 14, 2006)

Probably just in the neighborhood of 1 month. My brother had been doing it for a while and dropped a a lot of weight really fast. He is probably a better example but on the bike his results were similar. He always felt great and seemingly had lots of energy but just didn't seem to have the high end that he did before.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

This is an interesting thread. And I will share my experience. To support my mother in law to get her blood values in order, all the immediate family jumped on the Whole 30 diet. Not strictly Keto, but pretty close. For background I am technically a "Pro" mountain biker, finishing mid-pack at USAC XC nationals, and with a few better results in longer races. My weight over the past 4 years has been almost unbelievably, and laughably stable.

The "diet" was interesting. Until I hit 14 days or so, I was a slug on the bike. I just couldn't GO. I was losing weight, lost a bunch in the first week, probably clearing out the digestive tract, losing water weight, and reducing inflammation.

There was a ride 10 days in where I felt pretty crappy, uploaded to STRAVA, and found that I actually was riding as fast, if not faster than normal. I noticed that I required no more than 1/2 the water I had required before, but craved salt more than I ever have.

About 3 weeks in, I had one of those rides where you can go as fast as you want, recover, and hit it again almost immediately. The diet was definitely creating changes in my performance. Whether they really would last, or be beneficial I did not know yet. 

After August, I started to take down more potatoes & sweet potatoes.

I started this August 1, I've maintained the diet for the most part since. Raced a stage race in October, placing 2nd overall, and winning the third stage. Each day I felt like I could go the brink of bonking, but the bonk didn't happen, and I could reel other racers back in when gapped. I feel this was my best race performance to date. In the CX races I did this year, I again found I had the ability to surge over and over again.

Moving forward, I will continue to apply what I learned when reintroducing "normal" foods one by one. I will add more carbs back in to bolster my top end during racing and hard training. I will drink beer too, but less than normal, as I found alcohol makes it very difficult for me to sleep.

Anyway, it may not be for everyone. If I didn't feel it helped my race performance, I'd have a hard time staying motivated to stick to it. I will add that this whole time I have not actively avoided carbs, but when you're limited to only starchy veggies and fruit, you tend to take less in than normal. I also have not raced enough since I started eating this way to confirm 100% it's helped my performance, but anecdotally, it has.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

Ok... I've read enough that I'm going to go ahead and try this (probably a hybrid of the Primal and Paleo diet).

Just as a background, I'm turning 48 this year. I'm a stocky 5'4" and I weigh 153 lbs (ideally, I want to be 145). Like a typical middle-ager, I have love handles and a gut I'd like to "minimize," and I often feel flat when I go for bike rides (which is typically one to two XC-type rides per week of 10-15 miles and under 2K of climbing). I'm almost convinced my testosterone levels are lower, but I'll get a definitive answer during my next annual. In the meantime, I'm willing to try something different. FYI, my results were excellent during my last annual (blood sugar, cholesterol, etc). 

Anyway, what do I expect to happen when I switch over? I usually have a banana before a ride because I am prone to muscle cramps. I'm also concerned that not having carb reserves will leave me less energized than before. What about the usual back slides that happen (succumbing to sweets, for example)? How much does that set me back? What pitfalls should I avoid?


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

ron m. said:


> Ok...
> 
> Anyway, what do I expect to happen when I switch over? I usually have a banana before a ride because I am prone to muscle cramps. I'm also concerned that not having carb reserves will leave me less energized than before. What about the usual back slides that happen (succumbing to sweets, for example)? How much does that set me back? What pitfalls should I avoid?


What to expect...you likely will lose some weight immediately. Then between day 3 and day 15, you'll think it's the dumbest thing you've ever done, but keep doing it. You energy stores will be lower, until you become adapted to burning fat...figure 20 days or so. If you're prone to muscle cramps, find an electrolyte additive for your water without sugar (Elete, Endurolytes, etc).

Back Slides? Simple, don't let them happen. Seriously, don't, you'll just make it harder on yourself. I think I had one granola bar when I was doing this because I ran out of food at work, and had to stay late. Honestly it didn't set me back...aside from wanting another later on with a stronger craving.

The pitfall you should avoid is losing motivation. Make sure you really want to do this, be motivated and strictly adhere to your plan for 20 days or more, until your body makes the switch over to fat burning. It's pretty cool when it happens.

There are all sorts of menu ideas and recipes to on the web, just google it, many are really awesome.


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

Muscle cramps, muscle weakness and nausea are caused by a shortage of magnesium, potassium or salt (and your body will release both so you need to replenish). Try to find real chicken or beef broth, a hot cup daily will immediately help with the keto flu until you adapt.

I find the key to motivating myself at the start was researching and making foods I enjoyed most. If you don't thoroughly enjoy eating this way you will not be able to sustain it. Pinterest has been amazing for recipes in terms of snacks and meals.

As the post above says, you need to become fat adapted. Once you achieve this then you can decide exactly what works for you, you don't have to choose any particular diet. This is a lifestyle change that you will be tweaking at all times. I personally thrive most being ketogenic with a leaning towards primal. I rarely have cheat meals because I enjoy eating this way.

Let us know how it goes and ask any questions. I could never go back to having a body that doesn't use ketones instead of glucose, you too will understand. 

And anyone that tells you carbs are required for any amount of cardio.....they are both ignorant and not fat adapted.

Always follow the science, not the fools.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks, Grok and Brentos. I'll let you know how it works out.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

So I started Monday (after saying goodbye to carbs via an indulgent weekend of pigging out). The first couple of days wasn't too bad because I hadn't really been missing the sweet stuff (I LOVE chocolates), but it's been getting progressively tougher. On the good side, I've managed to shed about 3 lbs (probably all water). I'll just have to hang in there a little bit longer. I've gone on a couple of light bike rides, and noticed that as long as I don't put a lot of effort, my energy level is barely adequate. We'll see tomorrow when I do my DH ride if that remains true. 

FWIW, I'm going to employ the Ketogenic diet until I hit my desired weight, and probably switch to Primal Blueprint for maintenance.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

Well, Saturday was a disaster. My DH ride consists mainly on getting to a couple of trailheads (about 1500-2000 ft of climbing total). The first trail is more a jump line, where you have to sprint to jump features and carry speed to make it through gaps. On my first session, I ran the warm-up jump line about three times and was gassed already. By the time we were on the second trail (a freeride trail consisting of drops, steep switchbacks and gaps), I had no energy to even hit the jump features. I didn't even have the mental clarity to hit the trail at speed, I felt like I didn't have the strength to manhandle the bike if I needed to. So I backed off... and that day was not the least bit enjoyable.

I'm really hoping my energy level comes back... my ultimate goal is to be a fitter, stronger rider after this transformation, and all the stories I've read say that I will be. But right now, it sucks. LOL!


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Interesting thread. 

What most people here are calling a ketogenic diet is really just a low carb diet, not a true medical ketogenic diet.

A real keto diet should ONLY be done for a diagnosed medical problem and under medical supervision. A true keto diet is intentionally altering your physiology and has many possible side effects and drug interactions, including OTC drugs and NSAIDS. A real keto diet is also low protein ( less than 50 gm/day) and could hamper fitness goals. Also low fiber with the resulting bowel effects.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

dave54 said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> What most people here are calling a ketogenic diet is really just a low carb diet, not a true medical ketogenic diet.
> 
> A real keto diet should ONLY be done for a diagnosed medical problem and under medical supervision. A true keto diet is intentionally altering your physiology and has many possible side effects and drug interactions, including OTC drugs and NSAIDS. A real keto diet is also low protein ( less than 50 gm/day) and could hamper fitness goals. Also low fiber with the resulting bowel effects.


Perhaps I use that term loosely... thank you for the clarification. My dietary restriction is less than 30 grams of carb per day... I don't monitor fat or protein intake, although I make a point of consuming a lot of leafy vegetables along with the fat and protein.

Interestingly, my water/liquid intake has increased since doing this.


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## Chowder Head (Sep 26, 2010)

I know the feeling, stick with it, the energy will come back, I can ride for hours and hours with no food, just water. I'm sub 30g of carbs a day, I aim for 20 or less.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

A true keto diet is about a 4:1:1 ratio of fats, carbs, protein by weight. So by kilocalories it would be 9:1:1. Some medical professionals use a higher ratio of 5:1:1 by weight, or 11:1:1 by kilocalories. As you can see the overwhelming source of fuel is fat with little to none from carbs or protein. This is a difficult diet to maintain and needs constant medical supervision. Used primarily for epilepsy in children when other drugs cannot control the seizures (for reasons not fully understood it is not as effective in adults). Also used in some cancer treatments, as tumors do not grow well with ketones as fuel. Also some studies show promise with Parkinson's Disease, Alzheimer's, and ALS.

So if your diet includes protein then it is not a keto diet, just low carb. If you do not have a sweet or acetone smelling breath you are not in true ketosis, as acetone is a ketosis waste product excreted via the lungs.


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

A true Keto diet is when your body is using ketones instead of glucose as the main source of energy for all functions including the brains requirements (the few carbs your body does need are easily made by converting protein).

Most people will achieve ketosis with 20 or less grams of carbs per day, and by carbs I mean healthy green veggies. The healthier you are the more carbs you can get away with while staying in keto.

This is not a high or low protein anything...protein is a function of your lean muscle mass with a few smaller variables depending on activity. An average guy needs about 120 - 140 g of protein a day.

ron, let us know how it's going. The science is there, once you are ketogenic you will never want to go back only because of the energy levels and mental clarity. The weight loss occurs because you are going back to the way your body functioned for millions of years before the agricultural revolution.

chowder, nobody believes the part of riding without food for hours on end, they have to try it for themselves.......true fat metabolism.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks, Dave and Grok.

Well, it's day 11 now. I'm currently at 148.6 lbs (from 155 on Day 1). My goal was to hit 145 but I'm moving that down to 140 now (only because aesthetically, I could lose a few more fat pounds... lol!). 

Some observations so far:
1) my craving for "carbs" has diminished
2) when I do get hungry, I don't get that same awful feeling of starvation like I did before
3) I usually stop eating when I'm content 
4) still have a slight impulse to end my meal with a dessert (but I've managed to control that)
5) I'm drinking a lot more and peeing a lot more as a consequence (I didn't need to wake up in the middle of the night to pee before but now I do)
6) my dreams are freakin' VIVID for some reason (now I'm just waiting for Megan Fox to show up... don't tell my wife... lol!)
7) Energy level is constant through the day
8) rode without eating last Tuesday and did 14 miles, 2400 ft of climbing. So it can be done, but I have to say, IT SUCKED not having top-end energy (for sprints, steep climbs)

So far, so good. I'm going to up the fat intake a little bit, but I think I'm progressing okay (just avoiding carbs has been tremendous). 

Grok... speaking of top-end energy, I've read that some people take a little bit of carb prior to a work-out to regain that... should I wait until after 21 days before playing around with carbs again since I know I'm not fully acclimated yet? Honestly, I don't think I'm even at optimal ketosis... my wife does have that breathalyzer gadget to measure it so I think I'll start monitoring.

I'm also going to try out intermittent fasting (no food for 16 hours) to see if that helps speed up the process. Wish me luck!


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## Chowder Head (Sep 26, 2010)

Hi Ron,

Glad to hear you are adapting. Here is a cut and paste from a great site, Ketogains.com with info on your question.

"TKD

What is it?

The Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD) is nothing more than the standard ketogenic diet (SKD) with carbohydrates consumed at specific times around exercise. This means that carbohydrates are consumed on days when exercise is performed. If fat loss is the goal, the number of calories consumed as carbohydrates should be subtracted from total calories, meaning that less dietary fat is consumed on those days. The TKD is a compromise approach between the SKD and the CKD. The TKD will allow individuals on a ketogenic diet to perform high intensity activity (or aerobic exercise for long periods of time) without having to interrupt ketosis for long periods of time.
-"The Ketogenic Diet" by Lyle McDonald

Within certain limits, the TKD can sustain high intensity exercise performance, although perhaps not as well as the CKD. The TKD is generally most appropriate for beginning and intermediate weight-trainers, as it will allow them to sustain exercise intensity without disrupting ketosis for long periods of time. Additionally those individuals who cannot use the CKD for health reasons, but who are also involved in high-intensity exercise, may find the TKD appropriate.

Weight training is not generally limited by the availability of blood glucose. Studies giving carbs prior to resistance training have not found an increase in performance. However, almost without exception, individuals on a SKD who consume pre-workout carbs report improved strength and endurance and an ability to maintain a higher intensity of training during their workout.

Anyone following a ketogenic diet who wishes to perform high intensity training can benefit from the TKD approach.

Very little research has examined the effects of a ketogenic diet on weight training performance and it is difficult to determine exactly why performance is improved with preworkout carbs. It may be that raising blood glucose to normal levels, which only requires a minimal 5 grams of carbohydrate, allows better muscle fiber recruitment during training or prevent fatigue. Ultimately, the reason why carbohydrates improve performance is less critical than the fact that they do.

Additionally, individuals performing extensive amounts of aerobic training on a SKD typically report improved performance with carbs consumed before and during workouts. Even at low intensities, performance on a SKD is limited by glucose and muscle glycogen. For this reason, endurance athletes using a SKD are encouraged to experiment with carbohydrates around training.

The major goal with pre-workout carbs is not necessarily to improve performance, although that is a nice benefit. Primarily, the goal is to provide enough carbohydrate to promote post-workout glycogen synthesis without interrupting ketosis for very long. That is, the carbohydrate taken prior to one workout is really an attempt to ‘set up’ the body for better performance at the next workout by maintaining glycogen levels.

Although experimentation is encouraged, most individuals find that 25-50 grams of carbohydrates taken thirty minutes before a workout enhance performance. The type of carbohydrate consumed pre-workout is not critical and individuals are encouraged to experiment with different types of carbs. Most seem to prefer easily digestible carbohydrates, either liquids or high Glycemic Index (GI) candies as to have them absorb fast in the body and also to avoid problems with stomach upset during training. A wide variety of foods have been used prior to workouts: glucose polymers, Sweet Tarts, bagels, and food bars; all result in improved performance.

Research suggests that carbohydrates consumed before or after exercise should not negatively affect ketosis. However, some individuals find that they drop out of ketosis transiently due to the ingestion of pre-workout carbohydrates. After workout, there will be a short period where insulin is elevated and free fatty acid availability for ketone production is decreased. However, as blood glucose is pushed into the muscles, insulin should drop again allowing ketogenesis to resume within several hours.

Performing some low intensity cardio to lower insulin and increase blood levels of free fatty acids should help to more quickly reestablish ketosis. Post-workout carbohydrates might be expected to have a greater effect on ketosis, in that insulin levels will most likely be higher than are seen with pre-workout carbohydrates. For this reason, individuals may want to experiment with pre-workout carbohydrates first, only adding postworkout carbohydrates if necessary.

When should I use it?

Experienced in sports or lifting / more than ~ 3 months steady on keto: you might want to try a TKD. This is the middle ground, you "drop" out of ketosis by consuming carbs around your workouts and should go back in after finishing. The overall goal is to eat JUST enough carbs to provide glycogen during your workout. You can build muscle on this diet while staying lean, albeit muscle gain will be much slower than with a CKD.

How do I "do" the TKD?

NOTE - the following is the "classic" approach to TKD, we suggest you use the modified for KETOGAINS approach, a la /u/darthluiggi

Individuals following the SKD who want to perform high intensity activity will absolutely have to consume carbs at some point around exercise. The basic guidelines for setting up a SKD (from should still be used to develop a TKD. The only difference is that calories must be adjusted to account for the carbohydrates being consumed around training.

The safest time to consume carbs, in terms of maintaining ketosis, is before a workout and ketosis should be reestablished soon after training. Depending on total training volume, 25-50 grams of carbohydrates taken 30-60’ prior to training seems to be a good amount. The type carbohydrate is less critical for pre-workout carbs but quickly digested, high GI carbs seem to work best as they are absorbed fast by the body and also to avoid stomach upset during training.

If more than 50 grams of carbohydrates must be consumed around training, it may be beneficial to split the total amount, consuming half 30’ before training and the other half at the beginning (or during) of the workout.

If post-workout carbohydrates are consumed, an additional 25-50 grams of glucose or glucose polymers are recommended. Fructose should be avoided as it can refill liver glycogen and interrupt ketosis. Additionally protein can be added to the post-workout meal to help with recovery. Dietary fat should be avoided since it will slow digestion and could lead to fat storage when insulin levels are high.

If post-workout carbohydrates are not consumed, taking in protein only can still enhance recovery as blood glucose and insulin should be slightly elevated from the consumption of pre-workout carbohydrates.

Notes:

The suggested carb sources for a successful TKD are the ones made from dextrose and glucose. Try to avoid other carb sources, especially those high in fructose, as they will replenish liver glycogen (instead of muscle glycogen) defeating the purpose of the TKD.

Examples of easy sources of carbs for TKD are:

Dextrose Tablets
No fructose KaroTM Brand Syrup.
Pre-workout gels such as GU Gels, Gatorade, Dextro
Candy such as Sweet Tarts, Runts, Nerds, Lolli-Pops, Gummi Bears;
Although it is suggested to avoid mixing high fat items with carbs during a TKD, an exception to this would be MCT Oil(and Coconut Oil), so feel free to combine both as a pre-workout formula. Wait at least 2 hours after exercising before reintroducing fats to your diet."


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks, Chowder! Great info!


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2016)

Grok said:


> The weight loss occurs because you are going back to the way your body functioned for millions of years before the agricultural revolution.


This is not true. First off, modern man has not existed for "millions of years". Second, weight loss on a keto diet still requires a calorie deficit. The science is there, no need to resort to witchcraft.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

craigsj said:


> This is not true. First off, modern man has not existed for "millions of years". Second, weight loss on a keto diet still requires a calorie deficit. The science is there, no need to resort to witchcraft.


I believe what he was trying to say is that man have been consuming grains only for a very short time, considering how long we had been hunters prior to becoming gatherers.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2016)

jazzanova said:


> I believe what he was trying to say is that man have been consuming grains only for a very short time, considering how long we had been hunters prior to becoming gatherers.


The "agricultural revolution" was not the time we became "gatherers" rather than "hunters", nor did it mark the moment in history where we suddenly developed weight problems. The "millions of years" comment is simply indicative of his lack of scrutiny when it comes to his own assumptions.

More important is the suggestion that weight loss occurs as a direct consequence of restoring the diet to what "nature intended". That is very much NOT the case. It is easily possible to gain weight on a keto diet and lose on a non-keto one. Calories still matter. It is easy to find cases where keto dieters cannot lose weight only to find out that the "unlimited" items they are allowed (butter, heavy cream) aren't really unlimited when they constitute thousands of calories a day. You can't drink a pint of heavy cream as a a nightcap and expect to lose weight, regardless of whether cavemen "hunted" or "gathered" it back in the day.

It's also important to know that your body doesn't automatically recover from a lifetime of liver poisoning from fructose so switching to a Keto diet, while perhaps the best possible thing you could do, does not magically restore your body to health and drop all those "extra pounds".


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

I get your point, craigsj. I was calorie-counting the last time I lost weight (over ten years ago). Using the same method now does not seem to help (I'm 48 this year).

The benefits I hope to get from my attempt at a (quasi)-ketogenic lifestyle are:
1) more efficient fat burning with mitochondrial build-up (as research suggests)
2) temper my craving for carb-based food (my brother who is younger than me died of diabetes-related complications last year)
3) more consistent energy through the day
4) curb my appetite (I think this relates closely to #2). 

So you're right... the balance of calories (consumed and burned) dictate whether you lose weight or not. I think employing this dietary method will help. We'll see what happens! =)


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2016)

Sorry to hear about your brother, that's way too young. I have a family history as well.

I'm a big fan of keto and believe you're thinking right in employing it. Still, some believe you can have unlimited fat calories and lose weight but that isn't so. Still have to moderate the amount you eat to win, keto is just the right way to do it.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

jazzanova said:


> I believe what he was trying to say is that man have been consuming grains only for a very short time, considering how long we had been hunters prior to becoming gatherers.


Not completely true. Paleolithic man ate what was locally available. HG societies that lived in arid areas or grassland steppes gathered grains, and it was a big part of their diet.

There were three companion studies in the UK that looked at this very topic. One studied the diet of current non-westernized HG societies (there are still a few in the world), one analyzed paleolithic copralites, and one studied the bone structure and mineral isotope composition of paleolithic skeletal remains. All three reached similar but not identical conclusions. The current paleo fad diet is similar in some aspects to what the cavemen ate, and vastly different in other aspects.

Current state of the art knowledge in epigenetics shows that your genome does change within your own lifetime, in response to diet, stress, drugs, injury, and environment. We do not have the same genes as our paleolithic ancestors. You do not have the identical genes of your parents, or even of you as a child. Additionally, the nutritional composition of cultivated fruits and vegetables is significantly different from their original wild origins. Most notably fiber content. Paleolithic man ate a lot more fiber than even the most zealot vegan today -- 100 or more grams per day.

There are a lot more fruits and vegetables available today than were ever available to HG societies. All the plants that are native to North America were unavailable to them, so they evolved without tomatoes, potatoes, blueberries, corn, and the list goes on.


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

ron m. said:


> .....
> Grok... speaking of top-end energy, I've read that some people take a little bit of carb prior to a work-out to regain that... should I wait until after 21 days before playing around with carbs again since I know I'm not fully acclimated yet? Honestly, I don't think I'm even at optimal ketosis... my wife does have that breathalyzer gadget to measure it so I think I'll start monitoring.
> 
> I'm also going to try out intermittent fasting (no food for 16 hours) to see if that helps speed up the process. Wish me luck!


I would wait the 21 days, or until you are completely adapted (and you will know). Once you are, then you can spend the rest of your life re adapting and testing, and seeing what works for you.

Currently I eat a full supper and nothing other than coffee the next day till about 2, where I will have a snack, or a meal. There is no real norm and every day is different. When I first started I had big breakfasts every morning, but after a few months my appetite slowly changed. I am currently not biking during our winter, which has significantly reduced my appetite even more, and started my weight to lower a little more again.

Forget what everyone is saying about history or carbs, just make sure that you are thoroughly enjoying what you eat and sticking to under 20 carbs a day. Increasing fat intake during this phase is what the main experts advise to help speed up the process.

The whole point of this "natural" part of this is not having to count or weight anything. Eat when you are hungry and stop when not. I will always stress to make sure you eat things you love, otherwise it is very hard to maintain this as a lifestyle change.

Craigsj....we were gatherers and hunters at the same time, agriculture as a main source is only about 10k years old, which also allowed for larger groups to settle and form cities. Modern man has evolved to where he is today over about 2 million years. What is good for him is generally what is good for us. Let's try and help a fellow member instead, we both mean well.

Try reading or watching what Gary Taubes says about calorie counting, better known as the first law of thermodynamics. It clearly explains why your hunger is different on this diet, and why over time you will become less of a slave to food. I will try to add more later. Good luck and hopefully you will be adapted very soon.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2016)

Grok said:


> Craigsj....we were gatherers and hunters at the same time,


I know this, perhaps you mean this for another poster...



jazzanova said:


> I believe what he was trying to say is that man have been consuming grains only for a very short time, considering how long we had been hunters prior to becoming gatherers.


You implied, rather, that our dietary problem began with agriculture. I do not believe that is (remotely) the case.



Grok said:


> Modern man has evolved to where he is today over about 2 million years. What is good for him is generally what is good for us. Let's try and help a fellow member instead, we both mean well.


Modern man is defined scientifically as having existed about 500 thousand years.

I agree, I don't think it's helpful to anyone to state things as facts that are untrue.



Grok said:


> Try reading or watching what Gary Taubes says about calorie counting, better known as the first law of thermodynamics.


Sloppy statements like this undermine your credibility.

I do not advocate "calorie counting" in the traditional sense, I abhor it. The fact remains, though, that simply changing what we eat without other considerations does not inherently result in weight loss, as you claimed. If it does for you, then that's great as it means that your weight issues aren't as challenging as others face.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

Okay.... it's over three weeks now (22 days) since I started. I'm down 10 lbs from my heaviest weight at the end of January (currently at 146). As Chowderhead has suggested, I've been using TKD a little bit (usually in the form of sweetened coffee) prior to rigorous exercise and I'm actually feeling good during the effort. I've also been doing intermittent fasting and it surprisingly does not affect the volume of food I end up eating once I do have a meal. Obviously, the weight loss has slowed down but I don't mind a slow and steady decline. 

Once I'm down to 140, I'll switch over to a more Primal diet. I actually don't have any sweet cravings anymore, but I don't want to start that cycle again. Thanks again for all your help. I'll post updates as I march down my goal.


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## Chowder Head (Sep 26, 2010)

Great to hear Ron, Yeah, the final pounds are always the hardest, as you already know  My wife and I have been having a lot of fun with cooking up some new foods. We do a lot of IF as well, and fasted workouts, rides, and runs and feel great.

Matt


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## Grok (Sep 4, 2015)

Hi Ron, keep us updated. How is your endurance during rides, and your overall energy levels during the day?

craigsj...Nobody gives a damn what you thing about my ****ing credibility, everyone got the points I was making. It helps not being an insecure idiot.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

Grok said:


> Hi Ron, keep us updated. How is your endurance during rides, and your overall energy levels during the day?


Thanks for following up, Grok.

It's been slow... I'm currently hovering at around 144 lbs. I think the slower weight decline may have to do with more carbs creeping into my diet (I've been snacking on peanut, sunflower seeds and peanut butter more) although I have not had a legitimate cheat day NOR do I crave for one. I see carb-based foods (breads, rice, pasta, cakes) and know they're good but I don't feel compelled to eat them... so I suppose that's good. My energy level has been stable... I also try to fast intermittently. I haven't been doing as much riding with all this El Nino rain so I hope that once the weather improves, so will my weight loss.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

Grok said:


> craigsj...Nobody gives a damn what you thing about my ****ing credibility,...


Apparently you do.



Grok said:


> ...everyone got the points I was making.


That's the fear.



Grok said:


> It helps not being an insecure idiot.


Look who's talking.

What really helps is sticking to facts.


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

LOL! Relax guys... we're all on the same team. =)

So it's been two months... and I'm a shade under 142 lbs. I've been doing a more targeted ketogenic diet (meaning taking carbs before a ride) but I think I'm going to start trying to go even without that now. I'm also intrigued by the idea of taking exogenous ketones to keep myself in a ketogenic state (although it seems like cheating... lol!). Admittedly, I've been a bit more lax lately and may be going in and out of ketosis (although I make a point of "trying" to fast intermittently). 

Overall, I feel pretty good. Energy level is stable, hunger pangs are very moderate, and of course, a bit leaner (I had my % body fat measured and it's at %16 now... I know, it could be better... lol!). 

Thanks again for all the info here... I'm all into this lifestyle change. =)


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Any updates?


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## Ross1200 (Mar 27, 2014)

I've been doing Keto for about 2 months now. And feeling good. Don't feel starved. I'm down a little under 2 stone. Riding power is still good. And meals are great. Don't miss breads pastas or rice at all. 


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## Ross1200 (Mar 27, 2014)

Ps. What do people take on rides?? As snacks and fuel. 


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## ron m. (Aug 1, 2009)

Update? I was on a month-long vacation so that was the end of that. LOL!

I gained a few pounds since I went back on an unrestricted diet, but when I got back from vacation last week, I started drastically decreasing my carb intake (about 4 lbs of water weight automatically shed). Not on full keto yet but will resume very soon.

When I was strict keto, I snacked on boiled eggs, pork rinds or even fried pork belly (you buy them at the Mexican stores) on the trail.


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## Spinymouse (Jul 11, 2010)

*Almost Six Years Now.*

I've been on a ketogenic diet since January of 2011.

I went through all the difficulties the rest of you are describing as you experiment with starting your own keto diets. The transition had some rough moments.

I've also experienced all the same benefits I'm hearing from the rest of you who have stuck with it. I can sum it up by saying that I feel consistently good, don't bonk, don't crave, and have good energy levels. Hunger is a gentle and mellow feeling that comes on slowly, rather than the miserable experience it was when I ate lots of carbs.

52 years old now. 6 ft. 160 lbs.

Had a routine physical done last month. Blood tests all show healthy levels of everything, including cholesterol. Urine tests also unremarkable, with a trace of ketones. I'm looking at the results right now. I told the doc I avoid carbs. He told me, "Good!"

Circumstances occasionally leave me with no option but to consume carbs. However, I've never let that turn into reverting back to a regular carb-rich diet. I.E. for social reasons, I've occasionally had to eat carbs (weddings, guest in someone's home, etc.), but those have just been isolated incidents.

For me it is easy to stay motivated for a fat/protein/fiber diet because I simply feel ill when I eat carbs.

Chicken, pork roasts, turkey, meatloaf (that includes pork and turkey), bacon, tuna (in oil), eggs, olive oil, coconut oil, organic butter, heavy cream, cheeses (goat and cow), Brussels sprouts, spinach, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, sauerkraut, summer squash, zucchini, pumpkin seeds, cacao based treats (Yum, but an acquired taste!), and lots of other stuff too. No fruit, except an occasional tomato or blueberries I find in the woods. There's a lot to choose from. I average less than 20 grams of available carbs per day.

One challenge that I'm trying to overcome is that these foods spoil quickly, so I have to take extra precautions when I bikepack. Thinking of trying to make pemmican or dehydrating some meals. Or looking into web sites that sell freeze dried food to preppers.

Any suggestions on carb-free foods that keep well without refrigeration?


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## Spinymouse (Jul 11, 2010)

Ross1200 said:


> Ps. What do people take on rides?? As snacks and fuel.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For a day ride, it's hard cheeses, or a brick of feta, pumpkin seeds, a small bottle of olive oil (I drink it straight), cured meats like salami or pepperoni (although I dislike eating nitrites), tuna in a pouch.

Still trying to figure out how to carry a variety of low-carb foods on multi-day rides. They spoil more easily than carb-rich foods.


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

Jerky is an easy one


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## ETChipotle (Sep 20, 2014)

I wish I had found this thread when I started 5 months ago. I was very concerned about how to accommodate my riding with going on this Atkins diet, when carbs are required for food. I'm not an expert, and I fell into this with no preparation. I'm not the perfect example of someone doing Atkins diet, I'm just some guy on a diet who also rides a bike.

Prior to this diet, I was always the last person on group rides, unless someone had a mechanical issue or a young kid with them.

I was fearful for the transition, and what I did was to do long slow rides keeping my heart rate in a range where I could be mostly fat burning anyway. I never had a bad ride, but frankly I wasn't riding enough either. Anyway I got through the transition, and I wonder if this might be a good approach for people starting out, to focus on long low to middle intensity rides while they make the switch.

Once I was definitely switched over, what happened was that I was never the last guy anymore, and I always had energy at the end of the group ride.

When I looked at the Garmin, what was happening was I was ending my rides at a much lower heart rate, because I wasn't accustomed to riding fast enough to keep it at levels I would have been at when I was full sized. I dropped 15% of my weight rather quickly.

I don't bring food to fuel rides anymore. It just isn't necessary. I've done many morning rides on an empty stomach, no problem. Not condoning it, I should eat meals regularly, and there's a lot of things I should do that I don't.

I feel like I want to stay on a fat burning diet for the same reason a lot of people want carbon rims.

I love all the negative comments at the beginning of this thread, they just make me laugh. And the guy that says it's not sustainable, did that shake you to the core?


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## Spinymouse (Jul 11, 2010)

ETChipotle said:


> .
> .
> .
> 
> ...


The notion of needing to eat constantly, i.e. sucking carbohydrate goo, throughout a strenuous activity, is odd to me when I think about it. By minimizing available carbs in my diet, I've reduced the amount of insulin I produce, which then allows me to use the fat stored in my cells for fuel. When I'm able to do that, I can rely more on my internal stored energy (fat) and less on constant eating (carb).

Some people on keto diets fast periodically. I realized recently that I was semi-fasting on the weekends. It wasn't deliberate or conscious. I just wasn't very hungry over the weekend and often ate only one meal a day. Yet, I'm generally very active on weekends, whether riding, hiking, mowing the lawn, or splitting firewood.

One advantage of a keto diet is the extent to which a person can rely on their hunger to guide when and how much they eat, and less on the clock telling them they ought to eat.

As for the nay-sayers and catastrophizers, yeah, they're out there. And they sometimes go beyond mild interest and concern that a keto diet may be unhealthy, and go into full "YOU'RE GOING TO DIE HORRIBLY IF YOU DO THIS! YOU MUST EAT CARBS!" mode. That's OK. They don't have to do what I do and I don't have to do what they tell me to do. No problem. However, I remain curious about why they get so passionate over what I eat.


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## SparkyAlumni (Jul 22, 2005)

Just to chime in…. 
I’ve been on a Keto (more Paleo than not) diet since late March of this year. First thing I noticed when riding (MTB), was that I didn’t have any “bursts” of energy, but, I was quicker overall, probably due to the steady stream of acceptable energy levels, rather than spikes coming and going (depending on how many GU’s I ate during my rides). Since this diet is lacking in electrolytes, which to me is the biggest issue, I’ve simply used an additive to my water to offset any potential cramping. 

Now, I don’t race, and I think I would probably jump back on to a Carb-loading phase if I did, I will say that my daily average is 50-75 grams of carbs per day (that’s where I can keep Ketones in my body), but, if I feel like going above the 100g mark (probably kicking out of Ketosis), I can justify doing that the night before a big ride, because all you’re doing, is a low/modified carb-load and will be doing a “carb detox” the very next morning with that ride, essentially burning said carbs and virtually putting you back into Ketosis the same day (versus waiting the 2-3 days it would take without doing a hard ride). Caveat, know your body as you might have a “bonk” phase in the middle of your ride (I haven’t had that issue, probably because my “carb-load” is minimal, versus say a marathon runner eating 3-4 plates of pasta).

To offset any “drain” I might feel/incur as a result of being on Keto, I simply supplement with caffeine intake… I like the 5-hour energy shots (1/2 before the ride and the other 1/2 during), or, you can check out your local Wal-Mart for Hydroxycut Caffeine Bars (be cautious, they have 200mg of caffeine per bar – but, similar to one can of Monster or a Starbucks beverage of choice).

I for one have been VERY successful with this diet, as I have lost nearly 17lbs since April, all the while putting on noticeable muscle-mass/gaining strength (I’m not Hulk by any means, but, I have obtained a smaller waist, bigger shoulders/bi’s/tri’s and quads/calves, as well as just being overall stronger, which has obviously helped my ability to ride (stamina and mobility have increased, with the benefit of lower weight and stronger posture). 

FYI, I’m on a self-modified program, where PROTEIN is my primary nutrient, followed by Fat, then Carbs. I also try to limit my calories to 1,800-2,000kcal per day (which is not a typical Paleo premise), but, the theory still applies… you can’t lose “weight” if you consume more than you burn. 

If anyone’s interested, my GOAL/breakdown is as follows (for an 1,800 kcal day): 
Protein: 140g = 560kcal (1g protein = 4kcal) note: lately this has increased to ~175g per day
Fat: 115g = 1,040kcal (1g of fat = ~9.1kcal) as protein has increased, fat consumption has decreased to offset the amount of increased protein
Carbs: 50g = 200kcal (1g of carbs = 4kcal) this has pretty steady at 50-60 per day
Total: 350g = 1,800kcal per day


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## SparkyAlumni (Jul 22, 2005)

*Food of choice....*



Ross1200 said:


> Ps. What do people take on rides?? As snacks and fuel.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Foods of choice for me include beef jerky, pecans, and baby food pouches (yes, the kind for infants/toddlers), just make sure they're on the lower carb side. Oh, and I usually have some sort of Atkins chocolate bar in case my sweet tooth kicks in (not "healthy" food by any means, but, keeps me in Keto).


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Been doing it for years. My morning rides are also in a fasted state. I just had a reunion with my abs...which I have not seen since High School.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Popping Knees said:


> I failed to mention the greatest thing about being fat adapted is I can have a great ride with out worrying about eating. Fat stores alone can fuel a fast and furious MTB ride.


Word. Too bad the rest of the people out there refuse to buy into this fact. Never in my life did I ever think I could ride a 3-hour climbing trail epic....completely fat-adapted? At 52, I am feeling better than I ever did at 24...


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Cayenne_Pepa said:


> Word. Too bad the rest of the people out there refuse to buy into this fact. Never in my life did I ever think I could ride a 3-hour climbing trail epic....completely fat-adapted? At 52, I am feeling better than I ever did at 24...


there is no such thing as being fat adapted. you also don't need much of a carb intake if you are only doing light exersice, its only when you start to go into medium and high intensity exersice that the burning of glycogen increases. without replenishment your muscles will feel strained. This is the reason light exersise burns more fat than heavy.

People don't buy into it because its not how our bodies are ment to function. I've been loosing weight slowly just by cutting out sugar/sweeties/cake without any of the side effects of a ketogenic diet.


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## squashyo (Oct 28, 2003)

Hi there.

I went on a fairly strict Keto Diet 3 days ago. Super interested to just see what happens more than anything else. Should be interesting as I am also a pescatarian but seems salmon is ok and I'll eat that **** all day long. I also just came off a 7 day juice fast so I think the whole Keto flu thing is a bit easier perhaps.

For me, I try to eat healthy but carbs just ruled my diet. And sugar. I ride a TON so I never got fat but I sure as hell never got skinny...just sort of stayed the same. Dropped 13lbs with the juice fast and hoping this diet will bring me down to the sub 170 range which means I will have a 16lb lighter bike than last year. Janky math, sure. I haven't seen sub 170 since high school. I'm 48.5, 5'9".

What I can't get over is all the fat consumption. It just completely goes against everything I was ever told...it's a little scary. Just loading up on butter, cheese, sour cream...jesus, it's weird.

I'll check in to share progress. One other thing I changed is added running to my routine (3 days a week) and an app that has me doing sit ups almost every day.

Great health experiment or wild mid-life crisis? Either way, excited to see what happens.


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## jake2185 (May 31, 2010)

squashyo said:


> What I can't get over is all the fat consumption. It just completely goes against everything I was ever told...it's a little scary. Just loading up on butter, cheese, sour cream...jesus, it's weird.


squashyo, definitely try it but don't get caught up in the thought that your fat intake should come only from sources you mentioned above. Healthy fats can be found in many places other than dairy sources. Fatty cuts of meat and fish, chicken skin, avocados, olives and assorted oils will add lots of options. One thing to remember is that fat, as a macronutrient, is a little more than twice as calorically dense (9 cal/gr.) as protein or carbohydrate (each at 4 cal/gr.). So while it may seem like a daunting task to eat such a high fat diet, you can look at it this way, you only have to eat half as much in fat calories to equal what you would get in calories from carbohydrate.


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## ryanxj (Sep 9, 2011)

squashyo said:


> ....
> What I can't get over is all the fat consumption. It just completely goes against everything I was ever told...it's a little scary. Just loading up on butter, cheese, sour cream...jesus, it's weird.
> ....


Everything you were ever told...by whom? the food pyramid spoon fed to you by the govment? No thanks...

Give your body sugar and carbs all day and it will naturally use that as fuel, and youll have to fuel it constantly and regularly ie hummingbirds.

Give your body healthy fats and such and you'll be able to sleep for months at a time without eating all whilst being able to pretty much being the strongest mammal on the planet; and eat a ton of salmon too. ie grizzly bear.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

squashyo said:


> Hi there.
> What I can't get over is all the fat consumption. It just completely goes against everything I was ever told...it's a little scary. Just loading up on butter, cheese, sour cream...jesus, it's weird.
> .


its because of our current sugar intake. fat is the body's first choice energy reserve for everything up to low intensity exersise. If you eat sugar then the body switches to metabolising that. However, eating a lot of fat still isn't good for you and the long term health of this diet are unknown.

If you stop eating sweets, cakes, sugary drinks, putting extra sugar in etc then you'll still loose weight but not have the effects of lack of carbs.


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## slimphatty (Sep 9, 2011)

squashyo said:


> Hi there.
> 
> I went on a fairly strict Keto Diet 3 days ago. Super interested to just see what happens more than anything else. Should be interesting as I am also a pescatarian but seems salmon is ok and I'll eat that **** all day long. I also just came off a 7 day juice fast so I think the whole Keto flu thing is a bit easier perhaps.
> 
> ...


sooooo?? How'd it go?? I'm thinking of experimenting this summer with a ketogenic diet


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

ryanxj said:


> Everything you were ever told...by whom? the food pyramid spoon fed to you by the govment? No thanks....


How about every food and health organization on the planet? Look up the dietary recommendations of Japan, Australia, China, Brazil, UK, France, Russia, et al. In fact any country you want. The developed nations all do their own research and determine the best recommendations for their own populations. The U.S. is not the only country that does health and diet research. In fact, the U.S. is lagging Europe and the EFSA on cutting edge research in nutrition. 
If you actually bother to look up other nation's recommendations you will find they are all similar. The minor differences are due to local customs, food availability, and eating patterns. Each country also has some slight differences in how risk versus benefit is assessed. The key point is all over the world independent research with zero connection to US food industry has all reached very similar conclusions.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

dave54 said:


> How about every food and health organization on the planet? Look up the dietary recommendations of Japan, Australia, China, Brazil, UK, France, Russia, et al. In fact any country you want. The developed nations all do their own research and determine the best recommendations for their own populations. The U.S. is not the only country that does health and diet research. In fact, the U.S. is lagging Europe and the EFSA on cutting edge research in nutrition.
> If you actually bother to look up other nation's recommendations you will find they are all similar. The minor differences are due to local customs, food availability, and eating patterns. Each country also has some slight differences in how risk versus benefit is assessed. The key point is all over the world independent research with zero connection to US food industry has all reached very similar conclusions.


Look outside the box. There's a reason why they want us shoveling crap into out bodies.

Its called money.

Ill leave this right here:





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

I can't be arsed watching that vid, can you give me a quick review please.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Toot3344556 said:


> Look outside the box. There's a reason why they want us shoveling crap into out bodies.
> 
> Its called money.
> 
> ...


Do you always go to youtube when you want confirmational bias on a topic?


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

dave54 said:


> Do you always go to youtube when you want confirmational bias on a topic?


This video sums up a bunch of other research. If I gave you 1 thing to look at because lets face it, people have short attention spans... This is it.

The best thing to do is experiment and do your own research.

You're not going to croak from cutting carbs and eating more "*HEALTHY FATS*" for a couple of months.

And at that point your view on the subject might change when you feel the affects and changes that happens to your body.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

POAH said:


> I can't be arsed watching that vid, can you give me a quick review please.


Well, it is a youtube video. About as valid as the usual youtube "obama is an abducted alien bigfoot" clips.

It is a rehash of the low carb high protein weight loss diet. Old stuff. Some of his statements are outdated. The USDA food pyramid has not been used in 20? years. He oversimplifies some very complex cellular biochemistry to the point of error.

Of course, the low carb high protein diet he pushes will cause a weight loss. No one disputes that. It is not a lifestyle change everyone will want, especially when you start swapping weight loss for cancer and heart disease later in life. And it is not a ketogenic diet. Everyone on this thread is calling a low carb high protein diet ketogenic. It is not. The term is being misused in the media and internet. A true medical keto diet is low carb AND VERY LOW PROTEIN, with 80% or more of your calories from fats. Used to treat certain nervous system disorders, mostly childhood epilepsy. Very dangerous and needs tight medical supervision.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

dave54 said:


> Well, it is a youtube video. About as valid as the usual youtube "obama is an abducted alien bigfoot" clips.
> 
> It is a rehash of the low carb high protein weight loss diet. Old stuff. Some of his statements are outdated. The USDA food pyramid has not been used in 20? years. He oversimplifies some very complex cellular biochemistry to the point of error.
> 
> Of course, the low carb high protein diet he pushes will cause a weight loss. No one disputes that. It is not a lifestyle change everyone will want, especially when you start swapping weight loss for cancer and heart disease later in life. And it is not a ketogenic diet. Everyone on this thread is calling a low carb high protein diet ketogenic. It is not. The term is being misused in the media and internet. A true medical keto diet is low carb AND VERY LOW PROTEIN, with 80% or more of your calories from fats. Used to treat certain nervous system disorders, mostly childhood epilepsy. Very dangerous and needs tight medical supervision.


Tell us how you really feel!!!

80% fat is upsurd. 
I shoot for 50-60% fat, 10% carbs or around 50g a day and fill in with protein.

It's usually a couple of eggs or a small portion of meat one time a day.

Where you get those carbs are key though... no processed junk and low glycemic options...


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

N/a


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Toot3344556 said:


> ...80% fat is upsurd...
> ...


That is why a true medical keto diet is used only under close medical supervision when other treatments fail. And only for a handful of neurological conditions.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

dave54 said:


> That is why a true medical keto diet is used only under close medical supervision when other treatments fail. And only for a handful of neurological conditions.


Still not going to kill ya for a couple of months...


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## KonaSS (Sep 29, 2004)

Jeukendrup - Trusted sports nutrition advice & exercise science news


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Toot3344556 said:


> Still not going to kill ya for a couple of months...


No. it won't. A low carb/high protein diet is sometimes recommended as a weight loss method, particularly for athletes in weight class sports trying to drop a weight class. Not recommended as a long term diet, especially for endurance athletes during competition season. So use it for a few months off season to achieve your target weight then go back to normal diet.

There will always a few people that claim they do well on a low carb diet in competition. This makes you wonder how much better they would do if they ate right.

Of course, this is ignoring the genetic component of nutrition. Already well established in the literature different ethnic groups have different optimum macronutrient ratios. Nutritional genomics is new and evolving science. Won't be too long before a dietitian will ask for a DNA sample before developing a personal diet plan.


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## jake2185 (May 31, 2010)

KonaSS said:


> Jeukendrup - Trusted sports nutrition advice & exercise science news


Nice, succinct write up BUT I really want to know what a "race walker" is....sounds like a blast.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

dave54 said:


> No. it won't. A low carb/high protein diet is sometimes recommended as a weight loss method, particularly for athletes in weight class sports trying to drop a weight class. Not recommended as a long term diet, especially for endurance athletes during competition season. So use it for a few months off season to achieve your target weight then go back to normal diet.
> 
> There will always a few people that claim they do well on a low carb diet in competition. This makes you wonder how much better they would do if they ate right.
> 
> Of course, this is ignoring the genetic component of nutrition. Already well established in the literature different ethnic groups have different optimum macronutrient ratios. Nutritional genomics is new and evolving science. Won't be too long before a dietitian will ask for a DNA sample before developing a personal diet plan.


The kicker is that MTB'ing is a high intensity exercise(At least most of the time, especially in racing) and most effectively fueled by carbs. So cutting carbs will mess you up and make you slow.

That being said, it's great for endurance events where your Heart doesn't get too high and you stay in the aerobic zone.


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## squashyo (Oct 28, 2003)

slimphatty said:


> sooooo?? How'd it go?? I'm thinking of experimenting this summer with a ketogenic diet


Hey...lost track of this thread. Keto is going amazingly well for me! I'm about 5 months in and it's a full blown lifestyle at this point. I want nothing to do with sugar/carbs. I'm down to 170.5 which is just crazy man crazy! I started at 191. Abs look decent without having to clench. I can ride forever and not need to eat...that's hella cool! I don't have the sprint anymore though but I'm done with sprinting anyhow. I am rarely hungry and eat far less. I actually like salads now...seek them out! I rarely ever go out to eat anymore as I can whip up easy meals with basic ingredients at home. I feel energized all day...never crash.

Downside: Wicked cramps. Learning how to control that. I get occasional steady pounding pulse rate...it's odd but I deal with it. I get dizzy sometimes...but it's fun...like sniffing glue. I was sleeping great but lately I'm waking up at crazy hours wide awake. No idea what that is all about. Probably just life stress...Trump effect. Drinking a ton of water! That means I pee a lot. Peeing a lot is annoying. The does not prevent getting the cold...I got the cold and it sucks and it won't go away and it sucks. And finally, food choice is pretty limited especially since I am pescatarian. But since I am rarely hungry and can get full on light meals, no biggie.

All in all, I am super stoked on this lifestyle. I'm pretty Keto specific with my diet and in full swing. I absolutely love it! I don't see going back to a carb diet where I was starving always and had to eat huge plates of food to get full.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

squashyo said:


> Hey...lost track of this thread. Keto is going amazingly well for me! I'm about 5 months in and it's a full blown lifestyle at this point. I want nothing to do with sugar/carbs. I'm down to 170.5 which is just crazy man crazy! I started at 191. Abs look decent without having to clench. I can ride forever and not need to eat...that's hella cool! I don't have the sprint anymore though but I'm done with sprinting anyhow. I am rarely hungry and eat far less. I actually like salads now...seek them out! I rarely ever go out to eat anymore as I can whip up easy meals with basic ingredients at home. I feel energized all day...never crash.
> 
> Downside: Wicked cramps. Learning how to control that. I get occasional steady pounding pulse rate...it's odd but I deal with it. I get dizzy sometimes...but it's fun...like sniffing glue. I was sleeping great but lately I'm waking up at crazy hours wide awake. No idea what that is all about. Probably just life stress...Trump effect. Drinking a ton of water! That means I pee a lot. Peeing a lot is annoying. The does not prevent getting the cold...I got the cold and it sucks and it won't go away and it sucks. And finally, food choice is pretty limited especially since I am pescatarian. But since I am rarely hungry and can get full on light meals, no biggie.
> 
> All in all, I am super stoked on this lifestyle. I'm pretty Keto specific with my diet and in full swing. I absolutely love it! I don't see going back to a carb diet where I was starving always and had to eat huge plates of food to get full.


Start your morning with a cup of water with about a teaspoon of sea salt to help keep you salt content high. 
Also, eat a lot of avocado's, high in potassium.


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## Kmatluk (Apr 8, 2015)

@ squashyo What's your diet like to full up for a big ride? I'm just now getting Keto-adapted and starting to get out more on long backcountry loops. Wondering what others bring for fuel and if you Fast in the morning or eat first thing? Bulletproof Coffee seems to work well for me....Butter, Coconut oil, Heavy Cream first thing in the morning and don't eat for a 4plus hours afterwards.


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

first time i tried low carb it took me 6 weeks of bread cravings to get into it. it gets easier every time. and about 9-10 months in once your mitochondria count is up to speed you will get 95% of the power back along with the endurance. riding first thing in the mornining for 4-5 hours, without breakfast and no bonking is absolutely priceless.

for the doubters, read The Case Against Sugar. or just listen to the author:






in short, the doctors and nutritionists of the 60s that gave us our current food pyramid were not trained scientists and had no idea how you eliminate bias out of research. they were just out to get easy answers and even easier lobby money.

robb wolf is quite knowledgeable as well, and so aware of the things he doesnt yet know... my favourite nutrition guru:


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## dplevy81 (Mar 17, 2017)

There is a difference between low carb and Keto. Low carb means just that. You eat carbs, but less. Keto means you reduce your carb intake to the point where your body starts using fat for fuel instead. I'm 35 and i've been into fitness and weightlifting my whole life. I was also a certified personal trainer at one point with specialties in weight loss and sports conditioning. I've found that keto works, and a balanced diet works. With low carb you're nither here nor there. You get just enough carb to tease your body and end up with your insulin levels all over the place. I don't reccomed this type of diet (atkins or whatever the fad name is now). The weight loss people experience on these types of diets is mostly due to less water retention (from reduced carb intake) and the lower calorie intake in general. My feeling is that the drawbacks are not worth the reward, and you can acheive similar results by simply decreasing your portion size and eating balanced meals. On keto (after the initial adjustment period) you'll find more energy, better focus, and a better feeling overall. The reasoning is that this IS how our primitive ancestors ate, and how our bodies have evolved to process food. Modern farming hasn't been around long enough for our bodies to catch up to a modern diet. The only drawback to the keto diet as far as im concerned is its difficulty to maintain. You really have to plan things out and be in a relationship with someone on a similar diet or you'll drive yourself crazy. Ive been in ketosis myself for months at a time with zero issue. All bloodwork is well within normal.


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

very curious if you tried any endurance sports while in ketosis.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

Joshua_B said:


> No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.


Bullshit! You get much better insulin response. Your bad blood markers all improve, and your risk of diabetes and heart disease go way down. Keto is not Atkins. I eat keto, and I eat more veggies than most vegetarians. I eat eggs and avocado for breakfast with coffee with butter and coconut oil. I eat a homemade veggie stew for lunch, and I most often eat GIGANTIC salads for dinner. No sugar and no pasta. I lost 20 pounds and my health is excellent. No medications at all, when most 56 year old men are on multiple meds. Keto does not mean you have to eat nothing but meat and cheese, and you are very ignorant of the diet. What you are describing is a high protein diet. A good keto diet ups the fat, lowers the protein, and increases the veggies. Also, Dr Atkins fell on the ice and hit his head. He did not die from heart disease. Also, here is a couple that set a rowing record on a ketogenic diet. Fat Chance Row


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

I am 56 years old and always had a belly, even when riding a lot. In the summer (Tucson,AZ) I would ride way less and get fat. Last year I went keto. I rode less this summer than any summer in the 11 years I have been here, and yet I am starting the winter riding season 20 pounds lighter than last year, and at a weight I have not been at for 15 years. Yesterday I had nothing but coffee with butter, heavy cream and coconut oil in it and then did a 3 and a half hour ride. By the time I got home it had been 18 hours since my last actual meal. I started the ride with just a hint of a hunger pain, which at first had me worried. But it quickly went away, never to return. I had plenty of energy and never felt bonked, woozy, or shaky. A bit of tiredness in the legs due to a summer of almost no riding. (Probably rode a handful of times all summer.) This was my 3rd ride in the last week or so, trying to get back into a training groove. I had no lack of energy, and despite the lack of condition, I rode quite well, partly due to not having that 20 pounds. I feel like my condition will improve rapidly, and I don't have to spend most of the season trying to get the weight off. I am already at an awesome starting point for the season. Also, I am 56 years old and have absolutely no aches or pains, nor do I take any medications.


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## party_wagon (Oct 10, 2008)

I take 1 pound of baby spinach, 1 pound of baby kale, 5 cups of raw quinoa, 5 pounds of grass fed beef, and two sticks of kerry gold. I season it with taco seasoning, spaghetti sauce, or parmasean cheese & garlic. I add water for the quinoa and bake it for about 2 hours in a big pan in the oven. I eat this sunday through friday morning. On friday night I eat a large pizza, none of that chain junk, for dinner. During the week I do 2-4 15-30 mile rides and on satuday I will do 50 miles of single track. I will also binge eat saturday too. If I skip my pizzas I will have low blood sugar problems the entire next week, my friday night and saturday food has to have glucose. Everything is affected from sleep, rides, and work. I went from a healthy 6"3 220 that could run a 21 minute 5k to 195 and much fitter over 6 months. My friends think I am too skinny, but I like the performance benefits I have noticed being lighter. I eat close to 3k calories during the week and like 5k with glucose friday and saturday.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

LOL!

KETO is for people participating in "my 600 pound life" or those who have the metabolism of a sloth. 

Eat carbs if you need energy!!!


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

I've been Ketogenic now for 4.5 years, lost 67 lbs (back to my 20's weight) labs drawn every 6 months, all perfectly down the middle...and...1/2 average cardiovascular risk based off triglycerides/HDL/LDL/HLDL. Performance wise is different, short of... carbs create short bursts of energy since it is a volatile fuel, metaboliclly, hence the need for glucose shots during XC and marathon races. Do predator mammals use these? Nope, they can endure through releases of stored glycogen from the liver, and free fatty acids that break down stored fats in the body (which your body doesn't do when it has access to "free" glucose, via oral intake) My riding performance is only diminished by the burst, I can ride at the same race pace almost endlessly, so "your" first xc lap outpaces mine, but on the 7th... I've passed you twice (in general) because of consistent energy. It's counter intuitive, I don't care if you try it or not, but it does work well for tons of people... including healthcare providers like myself.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I've heard the ancestor argument for keto and I don't buy it. Just because your body has a built in fight or flight mechanism as a last resort to keep you from dying does not mean you should be in that state 24/7. It's like arguing that because prehistoric humans were always under stress, we should live like we are under stress to be healthy. What kind of twisted logic is that? 

And since we are telling anecdotal stories here, my LDL went to 370 in my low carb experiment (it was 120 before that). Yes, I lost weight, but I also lost weight eating a whole foods high carb diet (70% carbs), which didn't pound the crap out of my LDL (it is back down to 130 now) and my tryglicerides only went up from 57 to 67.


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## chiva (Oct 13, 2010)

midwestmtb said:


> I've heard the ancestor argument for keto and I don't buy it. Just because your body has a built in fight or flight mechanism as a last resort to keep you from dying does not mean you should be in that state 24/7. It's like arguing that because prehistoric humans were always under stress, we should live like we are under stress to be healthy. What kind of twisted logic is that?
> 
> And since we are telling anecdotal stories here, my LDL went to 370 in my low carb experiment (it was 120 before that). Yes, I lost weight, but I also lost weight eating a whole foods high carb diet (70% carbs), which didn't pound the crap out of my LDL (it is back down to 130 now) and my tryglicerides only went up from 57 to 67.


As a healthcare provider who works a lot with Native Americans and Latinos, the typical white man's diet has NOT done them any favors. IOW, they don't handle carbs well. Many Anglo's have the same problems with carb metabolism. I have found out through over 20 years of trial and error with my own body what works best for me. My daily goal is 50 grams of carbs or less. Some day I'm at 20 grams, some days I'm at 75. I do have a "cheat" meal 1-2 times per month but only after a 5 hr sufferfest with at least 250-300 TSS score. I usually eat salad 1-2 times per day, almond milk, nuts, peanut butter, eggs, various meats, hot dogs from Circle K (favorite). If we go out to eat, I'll have steak or chicken, veggies, and a salad. Only thing different than before is no potato and no dessert. I have adapted to this lifestyle quite well. It is very livable and enjoyable to me. I'm never at a loss for energy on my rides. I don't "bonk". I regularly do 4-5 hrs rides on no food, only water. My high end power is not compromised. I'm as fast (powerful) as ever. My weight currently is as low as it was at my racing peak 7 years ago. The weight plateau that I was stuck at 7 years ago has been beaten. I'm still loosing weight. My true 4-5% BF racing weight is about 148 lbs. I'm only 10 lbs over that now. My weight loss doesn't feel difficult like is used to. So what I'm basically saying is that the ketogenic type diet works well. Judging from the average person in the USA, this lifestyle would help most people. Now, if I was racing sorter XC events or Road like I used to, I would do a moderate carb load the day before a race and drink some Tailwind during the race itself to help with the energy demands of repeated super hard, red zone efforts. Otherwise, low carb/keto diet/lifestyle all the way. BTW, the cheat day is ok but the next day I'm glad I'm back to the keto diet as I feel better on it for sure.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I'm not sure why people assume that the alternative to their diet is always the "white man's diet" or the standard american diet (SAD) I was arguing with a vegan the other day and his response was similar. It seems that SAD is the strawman that gets attacked every time you critique somebody's diet. 

So let's get this out of the way. A SAD diet is not good for anybody. You have to be a genetic miracle to flourish on pizza, fried chicken, white bread, TV dinners, boxed chips etc etc. But the alternative to low carb is not SAD (as vegans will happily point out to you). When I was on SAD, I was 30lbs overweight. 

What I said is I flourished on a *whole foods* high carb diet not a sad diet, which by the way is moderate carb not high carb. Many traditional cuisines around the world are high in carbs (most Asians eat 60% carbs) but it hasn't caused obesity until processed SAD food got introduced. And since you served Native Americans, I'm guessing you are aware that the Pima Indians on the Mexican side of the border who stuck to their traditional diet, which was actually higher in carbs than the SAD diet forced on the American side Pimas, experienced much lower rates of obesity and diabetes. So carbs have very little to do with it.


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## chiva (Oct 13, 2010)

“We’ve learned from this study of the Mexican Pimas that if the Pima Indians of Arizona could return to some of their traditions, including a high degree of physical activity and a diet with less fat and more starch, we might be able to reduce the rate, and surely the severity, of unhealthy weight in most of the population,” Eric Ravussin.

Physical activity is very important. Most Asians get a lot of physical activity. Also the carbs they eat aren't cheetos.
Sure if one uses moderate carbs and is very careful about what types of carbs, I agree with you. But Fat + Carbs = No Beuno. Insulin spikes in the presence of Fat is Bad. 

Wheat bread, whole cereals, brown rice, can all spike your insulin. Most carbs except super low GI carbs cause significant insulin spikes. Many people have abnormal insulin responses anyway and don't need the added stress to their pancreas from these carbs. They are better off with keto type diet. For someone like ourselves who most would consider extremely active or "elite" athletes, we can get away with more dietary mistakes.


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## kave (Jan 7, 2013)

I have been on a more or less Keto or low carb diet for three years. No more stomake or gas problems. I did my best 95km MTB race two years ago without sugar or carbs, except the last 10km where I took a mug of energy drink. That upset my stomake so I rode that last part slower and I will never do it again. Now I am eating carbs from good quality sources after training to fill up the muscles glygogene deposits. It works for me, me temperament beeing a father of two young boys is 300% better than before.
In the weekends I enjoy a glass of red, if on a party I sometimes eat cake.
I also fast for 24 hours once every week.
The last 6 months I have been training at MAF pulse, ie 180-age=138 in my case. Never felt so good.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I have seen so many people do the ketogenic diets all wrong. Its insane.

Biggest issue is eating a bunch of nasty fats. Pork fat for one, only thing worse is processed cooking oils. Butter not too far behind.

Next is not understanding that the biggest problem is processed foods. The SAD is specifically designed to give us health problems.

You see the paleo diets, good idea but off a bit.

Proper carbs arent a problem, natural carbs. Fruits and veggies are natural carbs. High in fiber in many cases.

Proper carbs at proper intake levels do not cause insulin spikes unless you already have issues.

I dropped a 100 lbs just by riding and ditching processed food. Still ate carbs, didnt count them. Just learn what was high fiber (bread and otherwise) that was as unprocessed as possible.

Right now Im doing a more Ketone based diet. Restricted carbs. If I get lazy for even one meal (not home we grab a quick bite) I feel like ass.

Diet is natural, unprocessed as possible, protiens, healthy fats, veggies, limited fruits, drink only coffee, tea and water. 

Went to doctors for shoulder 2 days ago. Down almost 15 lbs, blood pressure and everything is down. That was in less than 4 weeks. Very limited riding but very busy on my feet constantly. Nothing for me to go 12 hrs between eating anything now. But still have plenty of energy.

Riding right now has suffered a bit. I can ride much longer, but dont have the punch I used to right now. But Im still tweaking my diet, sorting out what Im missing where.

Limiting carbs, eating only natural healthy fats and real/unprocessed foods does wonders. As I said, if I "cheat" I feel like crap for hours after.

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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

chiva said:


> Wheat bread, whole cereals, brown rice, can all spike your insulin. Most carbs except super low GI carbs cause significant insulin spikes. Many people have abnormal insulin responses anyway and don't need the added stress to their pancreas from these carbs. They are better off with keto type diet. For someone like ourselves who most would consider extremely active or "elite" athletes, we can get away with more dietary mistakes.


I experimented with and know many whole foods, plant based vegans who eat 80% carbs which includes white potatoes and brown rice. I challenge you to find obesity in that community. And no, they are not all active. I lost 20lbs in six months and my activity level involved moving from my office chair at work to my couch at home. Plus, my energy and vitals was way better on that diet than it was on my low carb experiment, which jacked up my LDL to over 300 and climbing two flights of stairs was a chore.

Now I am not advocating for veganism because that diet is simply a pain in the rear and takes the fun out of life. Just sayin focusing on carbs is a bit of a strawman.

The real problem is being overweight. When you are overweight, pretty much any extra excess calorie is toxic. BTW, protein can also cause insulin spikes but somehow this flies under the radar.

The reason why any extreme diet "works" (and that includes both veganism and low carb) is because they indirectly reduce calories by limiting your food choices. It also reduces food reward over time because you simply get sick of a diet with less variety. So you end up taking in less calories.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

What American eat:

https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/80400530/pdf/DBrief/17_Food_Patterns_Equivalents_0304_1314.pdf

This is a summary of the results of the NHANES program -- the periodic sampling of the dietary choices of Americans. Note it is different from the SAD tossed around here. People are eating better than many people think. Not as healthy as they could, and not as unhealthy as the alt-nutrition industry claims.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

midwestmtb said:


> I experimented with and know many whole foods, plant based vegans who eat 80% carbs which includes white potatoes and brown rice. I challenge you to find obesity in that community. And no, they are not all active. I lost 20lbs in six months and my activity level involved moving from my office chair at work to my couch at home. Plus, my energy and vitals was way better on that diet than it was on my low carb experiment, which jacked up my LDL to over 300 and climbing two flights of stairs was a chore.
> 
> Now I am not advocating for veganism because that diet is simply a pain in the rear and takes the fun out of life. Just sayin focusing on carbs is a bit of a strawman.
> 
> ...


It works well for those of us that have a habit of eating carb heavy.

And ketosis is actually very real, its an "extreme" diet and was never meant for people that are healthy weight (too many are obsessed with BMI cause of insurance and media. Can make you unhealthy) but ppl like me that are well over weight and loosing fat isnt so easy. This diet, though a bit rough works very well.

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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Yes, keto is a real state and yes it is a state where the body and brain are using fat rather than carbs for fuel. The problem starts when people think that because you are a "fat burner" that means you will burn body fat. Well, I guess that would be true if you weren't eating more fat. But since low carbers stay in ketosis by eating tons of fat....well you do the math. 

Bottomline is, if you eat fewer calories than you burn, you will lose fat. But if you eat more calories than you burn, you will gain fat. Doesn't matter whether those calories come from carbs, protein or fat. A fat burner who eats more calories from fat than he burns will not lose body fat. But it is often very easy to eat fewer calories on a low carb diet because eating tons of fat becomes monotonous. So it is a good way to trick yourself into eating less overall calories. There is really no magic here beyond the calorie equation.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Nope there's not but there is more to it than that. Types of fat play a part. But carbs are the most efficient fuel source. Ketosis you burn more calories (how much more is debated, but every study shows burning fat for fuel takes more calories to accomplish the same effort).

Also controlling carbs stabilizes the body.

But what I am doing isnt "Keto", its more of low carb paleo if we had to label it. Ditching processed foods, very limited carbs, even carefully way what I drink outside of water/coffee/tea. I dont pig out of fat, but more fat than I was before (just not processed oils and things like that)

Its not just about calories to be healthy, loose weight, etc, but also the types of calories. I eat my calories most days just fine, but nice to make my breakfast then not eat for 10 hrs but be able to bust ass working that entire time.

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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Latest research shows that the macronutrient ratios are less important than previously believed. Your body, primarily the intestinal biome, adapts to your diet, activity level, and life stressors fairly rapidly -- weeks to a few months. Whether you get 10% or 70% of your calories from carbs or fat is not as important as maintaining your activity level and managing the stressors in your life. Your body adjusts itself to your diet and lifestyle regardless if you eat low carb or high carb.

There is also a genetic component. Different people will react differently to the same diet.

The takeaway point is find a diet and lifestyle that works for you and keep at it. Ignore what works for other people if you found success for you.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

I've been doing this for a few months. I don't care about any of these arguments about ancestry, evolution, natural vs artificial, or "logic" about what we're "meant" to eat. All that matters to me is results; ideology is irrelevant.

I've mainly followed Stephen Phinney's guidelines for formulating a ketogenic diet. All of his recommendations are evidence-based and backed by clinical studies. He has a very good book relating this type of diet to athletic performance:
http://a.co/hBAC8Uz

I train and race (Cat 1 XC, Cat 2 CX), and my experience has been exactly as he describes. There is an adaptation period of 4-6 weeks during which you'll have diminished ability to perform work. After that, you're back to normal, except you have inexhaustible energy reserves. I did a MTB marathon at the 4 week mark and had a very good result. Nearly 3 hours at race pace, taking nothing except water and my energy was steady the entire time. Finished 2nd in the 40+ age group, 6th overall. I agree with the other posters that say fuel and snacks during rides are completely unnecessary now. You can essentially make yourself bonk-proof.

Normally I would finish hard rides with ravenous hunger and shakiness due to low blood sugar, despite sucking down energy drinks during the ride. Now I sometimes have to remind myself to eat, since I'm trying not be in a calorie deficit.

As for higher intensity, I also had a couple cyclocross races and did as well as I usually do in Cat 1/2. I will say that higher-intensity work _feels_ different. I feel a bit like I don't have that get-up-and-go sprint power, but the power meter doesn't lie and my ability to perform intervals is not diminished.

My goal was not to lose weight, as I was already pretty lean to begin with (started at ~155lbs, 6'0"). However, I immediately dropped 5-6lbs and was noticably leaner with much better definition. I've since gained some of that weight back in lean mass since resuming weight training in the off-season. This is possible because the lifestyle is not about calorie restriction at all. I eat sufficient protein, and all the cheese, bacon, butter, oil, cream, mayo, etc that my heart (or stomach) desires, and I feel better than ever.


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## michael1 (Nov 17, 2011)

Idea: This is a terrible forum to debate keto vs. carbs. Whichever side you are on, you get nothing by arguing here.

Instead, lwhy not have this thread be for *discussion* of people who have any interest in diets that are not high-carb, and the remaining threads can have the regular high-carb topics?


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

michael1 said:


> Idea: This is a terrible forum to debate keto vs. carbs. Whichever side you are on, you get nothing by arguing here.
> 
> Instead, lwhy not have this thread be for *discussion* of people who have any interest in diets that are not high-carb, and the remaining threads can have the regular high-carb topics?


That seemed to be the original intention.

The thing with "high carb" is most ppl with high carb diets also end up over eating calories. Some react ok to it, others do not and like me, get fat, have trouble loosing weight.

I can say its working for me. Im not going as strict on the diet, like I enjoyed thanksgiving! Lol. But almost 20lbs down in about 6 weeks, endurance has gone way up even without real "training". Just riding when I can.

I dont argue ketone or not, its a matter of diet and genetics. Ketone style diet works wonders for some but may not work for everyone. Especially when pushing your body fat percentage too low can be worse than being a bit overweight.

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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

spsoon said:


> I've been doing this for a few months. I don't care about any of these arguments about ancestry, evolution, natural vs artificial, or "logic" about what we're "meant" to eat. All that matters to me is results; ideology is irrelevant.
> 
> I've mainly followed Stephen Phinney's guidelines for formulating a ketogenic diet. All of his recommendations are evidence-based and backed by clinical studies. He has a very good book relating this type of diet to athletic performance:
> http://a.co/hBAC8Uz
> ...


spsoon- thanks for posting this up. I'm going to begin a Keto Diet on Monday and I've been researching the topic for almost 6 months now. I wanted to wait until the holidays were passed, along with a few of my marathon events (last of which was today). I've got 2 areas of concern. (but I'm not necessarily asking you to answer, but you can if appropriate.

1)- my biggest concern is that the research I've done seems to make keto diet out to be best for the 'long slow burn' output kind of athlete: ultra distance runners, RAAM riders, or even non-endurance athletes such as weight lifters, etc.. However, as a marathon (and sometimes XC, and road crit) racer, I've been concerned about my top-end efforts. I just feel like once I'm fat adapted, I may be better off subbing in some low glycemic carbs around race time. Whatever the case, I'm concerned about losing quick-fast top-end efforts with this choice.

2)- this is semi-related to the concern above, but its a bit more near-term of an issue. I've signed up for the Ouachita Challenge at the end of March. This will give me about 2.5 mos into the Keto lifestyle....with probably a more limited training schedule initially. I'm curious as to what my expectations should be for a race like that given my parameters? I'm a 45 yr old, Cat 1 XC racer who has a fondness for marathons (4-8 hr events). I'm generally a top 10 finisher or greater. My road racing highlights are minimal. 

https://theketogenicathlete.com/?s=zach+bitter
This is the closets I've gotten to some pertinent info to myself as an endurance athlete. Zach Bitter (who hold multiple records for 12hr & 100 mi runs) has been nutritionally advised by renowned Keto guru Jeff Volek (Art & science of Low Carb Performance [book]) and they came to some of my similar conclusions. Whatever the case, its a quality podcast listen

Thanks
CJB


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

CBaron said:


> 1)- my biggest concern is that the research I've done seems to make keto diet out to be best for the 'long slow burn' output kind of athlete: ultra distance runners, RAAM riders, or even non-endurance athletes such as weight lifters, etc.. However, as a marathon (and sometimes XC, and road crit) racer, I've been concerned about my top-end efforts. I just feel like once I'm fat adapted, I may be better off subbing in some low glycemic carbs around race time. Whatever the case, I'm concerned about losing quick-fast top-end efforts with this choice.


This is all anecdotal experience or conjecture on my part, so take with a grain of salt!

I agree that the potential benefits likely increase with the length of the event, and I share your concern with shorter events. However, it's been suggested (although I forget exactly where I read this) that being fat-adapted may include a couple of relevant effects:
1. During high-intensity efforts you will consume glycogen at a lower rate. This could offset the lack of carb intake during competition.
2. Reduced carb intake causes your muscles to store glycogen more efficiently and in greater quantity.

So yes, you might not have the carb intake during the event, but you might be burning it slower and starting with a bigger tank.

Over the course of the holidays, I've concluded that a cheat meal here and there doesn't significantly impact my fat adaptation. Of course, everyone may be different, and it may depend on your energy expenditure. I'm currently doing 10+ hours per week of base training, so that may reduce the impact of a few extra carb calories here and there. So it may be possible to supplement carbs during competition and gain the benefits of both. But they say that insulin inhibits fat burning, so it's also possible that having a sport drink could spike your insulin and throw a wrench in the works. This is pure conjecture, but something I plan to experiment with this season. If you have a power meter, you can do some race-simulating workouts and see how your performance is affected.

Slow-metabolizing carbs are an interesting idea, and could be a good compromise. That's something else I intend to try as well.



> 2)- this is semi-related to the concern above, but its a bit more near-term of an issue. I've signed up for the Ouachita Challenge at the end of March. This will give me about 2.5 mos into the Keto lifestyle....with probably a more limited training schedule initially. I'm curious as to what my expectations should be for a race like that given my parameters? I'm a 45 yr old, Cat 1 XC racer who has a fondness for marathons (4-8 hr events). I'm generally a top 10 finisher or greater. My road racing highlights are minimal.


I've read 4-6 weeks of adaptation to get back to your original power-producing capabilities. I did a 3-hour race at the 4-week mark and felt great, so my personal experience agrees. If you have a period of limited training time, it might be ideal if that coincided with your adaptation period because I would say the quality of your workouts is likely to be impacted for a few weeks. I wouldn't have any concerns about making the transition in 2.5 months though. You should be able to get fully adapted and still do some experiments for your race fuelling.

One undeniable benefit is it will make you leaner. There is a reason keto is so popular with the body-building crowd. So even supposing there are no performance benefits, you will have the luxury of making weight loss trivially easy. Personally, I'm enjoying the lifestyle and I'm convinced of the general health benefits, so I feel like I will likely stick with it unless there are major _negative_ performance impacts. So far, I haven't found that to be the case, but the upcoming season will tell


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

spsoon,

Once again, that is all very good (annecdotal) info! I'm very much encouraged from it. It seems like we have similar interests and perspectives. Another funny tid-bit is that I never clicked on your link in your first post. I assumed it was a video and I'd come back to watch it later. This morning I clicked on it and saw that it was to THE EXACT book I myself referenced in my post. LOL

I'm treating this as a big experiment, so if for some reason it doesn't work out, I really have very little reason to not go back to my previous dietary (racing) habits. I've lost 23 lbs this past year and feel like I've got my riding/racing/endurance nutrition pretty dialed-in over 20 yrs of racing. But I'm very intrigued by the Keto concept. And at 5'10" 170, I'm not over weight, but I'm not "climber skinny" either. So I would welcome another 5-10 lb loss. 

I easily have 2 weeks or more that I can give towards easy riding while I get fat adapted. From there I'll start to work in increasing volume and intensity while experimenting with Keto nutrition. The guy (Zach Bitter) that was featured in that podcast I linked to does coaching consulting. He has an option where you can pay for a 1 hr consultation. If I can't get some of these things dialed in myself, then I may give that a shot. I think he may have some quality insights considering his journey and subsequent achievements (along with the fact that he's been nutritionally guided by Jeff Voleck himself). 

The Ouachita Challenge is easily a B-race for me. But I am meeting some old riding buddies there and we've not ridden/raced together in 10 yrs. So some bragging rights are on the line.

Please report back here with what you find thru your up-coming experimentations. 

Thanks again,
CJB


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

spsoon said:


> This is all anecdotal experience or conjecture on my part, so take with a grain of salt!
> 
> I agree that the potential benefits likely increase with the length of the event, and I share your concern with shorter events. However, it's been suggested (although I forget exactly where I read this) that being fat-adapted may include a couple of relevant effects:
> 1. During high-intensity efforts you will consume glycogen at a lower rate. This could offset the lack of carb intake during competition.
> ...


I'm not claiming to be the authority on metabolism, but I'm writing a book on it right now, and I'm afraid that some of the above just doesn't seem right. Let's get back to basics and then look at the above writing.

Glycogen is used in skeletal muscle during high-intensity workouts. There is only a finite amount of it, on average the equivalent of around 800-1200 kcal (calories) in the body for use. That's still several hours of energy during exercise, but it's used FASTER not slower. It's used in the first place because the energy requirements at the time are outstripping the fat-burning capability of the body. It's like a reserve gas tank. When you are out of gas (fat burning) in your main gas tank, you don't use the reserve tank slower, you use it faster.

Also, you can't really have a bigger reserve of glycogen. You can carb load to top off the glycogen reserves but you can't grow them out of their 800-1200 calorie limits. It's not like getting fatter from eating more. It's a finite system that's off/on depending on the intensity and extent of the exercise. There is no efficient storing or inefficient storing of glycogen. It's either topped off or it's not. I'm not sure what kind of author told you about glycogen. Glycogen reserves are such a small amount of energy relative to fat stores that efficient and inefficient terms don't even compare with lipid metabolism.

CBaron is correct that for high-intensity stuff they should intake several hundred calories of simple carbs to top off their glycogen storage. If they feel hypoglycemic later, they should supplement with 100-200 mcg of chromium and/or mix the carbs with a protein-based snack to help balance out the energy spike.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> I'm not claiming to be the authority on metabolism, but I'm writing a book on it right now, and I'm afraid that some of the above just doesn't seem right. Let's get back to basics and then look at the above writing.
> 
> Glycogen is used in skeletal muscle during high-intensity workouts. There is only a finite amount of it, on average the equivalent of around 800-1200 kcal (calories) in the body for use. That's still several hours of energy during exercise, but it's used FASTER not slower. It's used in the first place because the energy requirements at the time are outstripping the fat-burning capability of the body. It's like a reserve gas tank. When you are out of gas (fat burning) in your main gas tank, you don't use the reserve tank slower, you use it faster.
> 
> ...


richj8990- Thanks for chiming in. I'm certainly no expert either...I'm not writing a book and I"VE COME TO A MTB WEBSITE FOR NUTRITIONAL INFO! 

Are you speaking above from the point of view of someone who has switch their fuel source away from glycogen and then over to fat as a primary source? The way I read your info is that that is not the case. However, I do seem to gather that once one becomes fat adapted it changes the physiology of what goes on.

The part where I'm very unsure about is if fat adapted people still carry around full glycogen stores? I'd guessed that they no longer did this, but like I said, I'm not entirely sure. And because of this, that's part of why I was thinking I might need to add to the (no longer full) glycogen stores before an event that might contain some intensity efforts.

If you are really interested in this topic, and are curious as to some of the foundational scientific info says, then I'd strongly urge you to read the book that spsoon linked to (and I also blindly referenced). These guys are some of the OG thought leaders in this area as it relates to athletic performance. The book is FULL OF the scientific study references that was used to build their body of work. And with that being said, I clearly recall them stating that some of the studies did show Point #1 that spsoon listed. I cannot clearly recall the details about the other point (and I'm not completely finished with the book yet either).

spsoon- did you experience much fo the Keto flu symptoms? I'm now at 6 days at less than 20 gms carbs per day (prolly closer to 15). I've really not had any of the keto flu symptoms. Mild lethargicness, very brief gentle head ache in the am, and I can tell I'm dropping water. However, I'm working hard to keep putting it back in. I'll be doing my first mellow ride tomorrow. We'll see how that goes. This has all been pretty simple so far...

Cheers,
CJB


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Figured it was worth linking to the book again, in case anyone wanted to check it out.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0983490716/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_dp_9rifAbCPTCMV5

Its been a pretty straightforward read. I'd even say its interesting....if you care about athletic nutrition and performance.

Later,
CJB


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

CBaron said:


> richj8990- Thanks for chiming in. I'm certainly no expert either...I'm not writing a book and I"VE COME TO A MTB WEBSITE FOR NUTRITIONAL INFO!
> 
> Are you speaking above from the point of view of someone who has switch their fuel source away from glycogen and then over to fat as a primary source? The way I read your info is that that is not the case. However, I do seem to gather that once one becomes fat adapted it changes the physiology of what goes on.
> 
> ...


Everyone carries glycogen stores, even people on an extremely low-carb diet, unless they have a rare genetic condition. BTW I learned a new thing too, I thought glycogenesis was AcetylCoA-mediated but it starts way before that enzyme, it starts at the substrate Glucose-1-phosphate, 7 substrates before AcetylCoA even touches any carbohydrate. That's called an early shunt from Glycolysis into the other pathway, in this case Glycogenesis. See below, and feel free to ask questions (I know about 2/3 of the molecular players in the article, would need to research the other 1/3).

https://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/glycogen.php#synthesis


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

I see what you did there! [wink]

I never questioned whether we carried glycogen stores. The unknown for me is, how much gets stored when in a fat-adapted state?

Do you or those 2/3's of molecular players have any fancy charts on that?

-CJB


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

CBaron said:


> spsoon- did you experience much fo the Keto flu symptoms? I'm now at 6 days at less than 20 gms carbs per day (prolly closer to 15). I've really not had any of the keto flu symptoms. Mild lethargicness, very brief gentle head ache in the am, and I can tell I'm dropping water. However, I'm working hard to keep putting it back in. I'll be doing my first mellow ride tomorrow. We'll see how that goes. This has all been pretty simple so far...


Same here, very mild headaches for a few days. Just make sure you get a little more sodium than usual. I'm really loving the steady energy levels. I used to get hangry when my blood sugar would drop. Now I can miss a meal, or train on an empty stomach and it's no big deal. I think it lives up to the "bonk-proof" promise.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

CBaron said:


> ...
> I never questioned whether we carried glycogen stores. The unknown for me is, how much gets stored when in a fat-adapted state?...


You still store glycogen. Glycogen is required to metabolize fat, so you are always burning some.
Laying on the couch watching TV you are burning fat almost exclusively. Not very much, but nearly all is fat. As intensity increases the percentage of fat vs glucose changes, until at max intensity you are burning mostly glucose. There is no magic point where you switch from glucose to fat exclusively. A low carb diet and/or increasing fitness changes the utilization curve so you burn more fat and less glucose at higher intensities. But there is a point where metabolizing fat just cannot meet the energy demands and starts burning more glucose.

Even on a long moderate intensity ride you will likely have short spurts of high intensity -- hill climbs, sprints, etc. For those short periods the body may switch on the glucose furnace, then revert back to burning mostly fat.


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

My gf is on a ketogenic diet this month, eating meat and fat in discrete quantities, and carbs only from vegetables, keeping the amount of carbs at 14% or less of the total. She has lost 15.5 pounds since beginning the diet January 1.

Meanwhile I eat anything I want, donuts, cookies, ramen soup, crackers of all kinds, tons of processed foods. I'm wearing the same size jeans as 40 years ago, 6ft, 170 pounds. I have gained 5 pounds since November 1, when I discovered I had a hernia and quit riding until I recovered from the surgery. 

When she and I have been hiking this month, her pace has been slow to very slow. Basically, I have to hike slowly and stop often to let her catch up. I'm 65, she's 56. 

I don't think this is a good diet. She wants to go riding on the mtb tandem I bought last summer, but with her on this crazy diet, I don't think she'll have the energy to pull her own weight. I would rather hike.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

She may not be doing the diet correctly.

Not enough calories and not getting all vitamins/minerals she needs. Possibly eat wrong fats too. Red meat and processed fats (vegetable oil for instance) are horrible. Avocado, fish, nuts/seeds should be staples, avoid fried anything. Tons of water and avoiding processed foods.

Also it takes 4-6 weeks for the body to fully adjust to the diet. Keto flu usually sets in week 2-3. It takes a bit of trial and error to figure the proper ratios for your body.

15.5 lbs in the first month is a bit aggressive too. I did similar but I have A LOT I can loose. I was a little slower but endurance had increased. Im guessing she doesnt have THAT much she can loose


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

She wants to lose another 20 pounds. If she loses that, she MIGHT have a waistline, but she won't be skinny. 

I dunno. I guess different people have different metabolisms, but mine is so different from hers, it's like we're from different planets.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

DeadGrandpa said:


> She wants to lose another 20 pounds. If she loses that, she MIGHT have a waistline, but she won't be skinny.
> 
> I dunno. I guess different people have different metabolisms, but mine is so different from hers, it's like we're from different planets.


Oh I understand that one completely. Do not get how my brother, father, granfather all thin and stay that way without trying. I have to watch what I eat and exercise my ass off and still damn near impossible to get down to their weights.

Its difficult at best when you both have to eat differently. Im doing a ketone just not aggressively (carb count is ran at bare minimum) and my wife and kids all eat carbs like nothing. My wife could loose some too and when she was pregnant with our youngest she had to do on a strictly regulated carb diet (not quite ketone) and she lost weight while being pregnant lol.

Human bodies are just interesting like that.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Red meat and processed fats (vegetable oil for instance) are horrible.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

I eat almost two pounds of red meat every single day, my C-reactive protein inflammation marker is zero, my body fat percentage is 9% (the same as a professional basketball player), lean muscle mass is 85%, body mass index is 22.0, LDL/HDL ratio is under 4.0. All of those numbers are excellent. The only thing 'high' is cholesterol that ranges from 200-220 mg/dl. Red meat can be horrible for some people. It obviously is not horrible for someone like me.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> I eat almost two pounds of red meat every single day.......
> 
> 
> > I just threw up a little in my mouth
> ...


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> I just threw up a little in my mouth


have a look at this

https://www.google.com/search?q=jre+meat+diet&oq=jre+meat+diet


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

syl3 said:


> have a look at this
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=jre+meat+diet&oq=jre+meat+diet


An outlier, who'da thunk? I think I'll go with the consensus.


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## felix1776 (Nov 14, 2016)

I started back on Keto about 3 weeks ago. I've been trying to lean up and was on a more balanced diet but had sort of plateaued. Got on Keto and the scale starting moving again within a few days. I've been able to lift on Keto and still felt strong. Went on my first ride this morning since going back on keto and my climbing power was garbage. I'm thinking I'm going to have to take the TKD approach and ingest 40-50g of carbs before riding.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

Give it a few more weeks. Your power should come back with a bit more adaptation.


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

felix1776 said:


> I started back on Keto about 3 weeks ago. I've been trying to lean up and was on a more balanced diet but had sort of plateaued. Got on Keto and the scale starting moving again within a few days. I've been able to lift on Keto and still felt strong. Went on my first ride this morning since going back on keto and my climbing power was garbage. I'm thinking I'm going to have to take the TKD approach and ingest 40-50g of carbs before riding.


I've been Keto for 5 years now, my early riding suffered during the first 6 months honestly, just couldn't stuff enough air into my lungs to keep up.... however my stamina was tremendous during the early adaptation. Couple of things to remember - 1) large amounts of ketones are released as acetone during conversion in your lungs which can cause respiratory discomfort which in turn causes decreased performance. 2) you liver is still in adaptation, and likely not efficient in glucogenisis yet. 3) increased acidity of your blood may disperse as lactic acid in your muscles, causing early performance decreases as well. Just in my experience. After the 6 month mark, my PR's increased on strava, and my late race performances increases 10 fold beyond my previous abilities


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## Spec44 (Aug 17, 2013)

I'm in the same boat, about 2 weeks in, and am fine while in the aerobic zones. But when I hit hills and my HR increases over LTHR I get that quad burn and heavy legs. Just tough it out? I want to lose some fat, and more importantly get the health and endurance benefits.

I've been experimenting. One Hammer gel (24gcarbs) on the way to the trail makes a huge difference, and I ASSUME I burn it up without affecting my ketosis. I can pretty much tell after about an hour that it's used up. I've done this the last couple group rides so I can keep up. But otherwise I feel good on the flats and down hills.

I'm a masher, but would love to up my cadence, so I've been taking the opportunity to not supplement and just work on running a gear lower than normal and keeping my cadence up, and staying in zone 2 & 3. This works ok.

I hate to slow progress by supplementing. I've tried ketosis numerous times and effects on my riding are what always results on me giving it up. I'm determined to push through this time, and figure if I supplement minimally on occasion, as needed, that it might take a little longer but I should be able to get there. But I could be wrong...


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

The thing with Keto is a metabolic change. In order for your body to adapt (I) had to adopt a very strict carb intake of less than 20g to stay on ketosis, especially on the first few months. The leg heaviness and lack of performance is your body working it out. Electrolyte levels, sodium and potassium and your body shedding Ck inflammatory agents lead to this for a while. Boosting on a ride with gel etc will not help you in the long run with keto, carbs are carbs... don't fall for the net carb deal... that's a crock. 2 grams of cocaine (for example) have the same effect on your body physiologically regardless of how much healthy whatever you mix it with. Your body will always burn carbs first (other than ETOH) because it's the least complex and less stable component on intake. Push through it and you'll see the gains


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

felix1776 said:


> I started back on Keto about 3 weeks ago. I've been trying to lean up and was on a more balanced diet but had sort of plateaued. Got on Keto and the scale starting moving again within a few days. I've been able to lift on Keto and still felt strong. Went on my first ride this morning since going back on keto and my climbing power was garbage. I'm thinking I'm going to have to take the TKD approach and ingest 40-50g of carbs before riding.


you are switching your whole system from gasoline to diesel on the go, those changes take months to set in before you will get back to full power.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Charlie Don't Surf said:


> I've been Keto for 5 years now, my early riding suffered during the first 6 months honestly, just couldn't stuff enough air into my lungs to keep up.... however my stamina was tremendous during the early adaptation. Couple of things to remember - 1) large amounts of ketones are released as acetone during conversion in your lungs which can cause respiratory discomfort which in turn causes decreased performance. 2) you liver is still in adaptation, and likely not efficient in glucogenisis yet. 3) increased acidity of your blood may disperse as lactic acid in your muscles, causing early performance decreases as well. Just in my experience. After the 6 month mark, my PR's increased on strava, and my late race performances increases 10 fold beyond my previous abilities


Have you guys on this diet checked your kidney function? It's not just the liver that needs to adapt. I'm a huge fan of low-carb diets but the keto diet is pretty extreme, and it would be a good idea to check your kidney function and other markers every six months or so. I recently recalculated my macronutrient intake percentages and was happy to see that protein is around 25% (fat 47%, carbs 28%). Once protein gets over 25-30% of total intake it starts putting a lot of pressure on the kidneys to filter it out and convert to urea. I drink about 3-4 quarts of water a day so I'm probably fine but it's hard to avoid going over 30% protein, if over 90% of your diet is protein and fat. A lot of books say a 1:1 fat to protein ratio by calories is good, but in reality most foods are closer to 2:1 fat to protein on a caloric basis (that would be just under 1:1 fat to protein on a gram basis since fat is 2.25x calories per gram compared to protein). So...although this can vary, on average if you are only taking in 5% carbs or less on a 2000 calorie/day diet, you are taking in 63-65% fat and 30-35% protein.

If you look at it as a total intake and not by percentage: my total intake is around 3000 calories, so 25% protein is 750 calories, around 188 grams, weight is about 66 kg, so 2.84 grams of protein intake per kg per day. The medical textbooks recommend 1.50 grams of protein/kg/day. So I'm not quite at 2x the recommended amount. If I was on the ketogenic diet and was taking in 3000 calories/day, I'd be over twice the recommended daily protein intake. The effects of that are going to vary based on genetics. Not everyone is going to do well. You really don't want to screw up your kidneys; once there is damage past a certain point it's basically irreversible. So you should definitely get a kidney function test every once in a while, just to be safe.

Last but not least, this will probably raise more questions than it answers but too much protein can also lead to a mild form of metabolic acidosis. If you feel tired and sluggish, and don't get out of that funk after a certain period of time, then genetically you are not built for something like the ketogenic diet and need something a bit more balanced. There are volumes of papers and books written about this, but I'll just keep it simple and say if this diet doesn't make you feel better after say 4-5 months it may not ever work for you.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

Nothing about keto says you should be eating that much protein. Cut your carbs, eat a normal amount of protein, and get the rest of your calories from fat.


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

richj8990 said:


> Have you guys on this diet checked your kidney function? It's not just the liver that needs to adapt. I'm a huge fan of low-carb diets but the keto diet is pretty extreme, and it would be a good idea to check your kidney function and other markers every six months or so. I recently recalculated my macronutrient intake percentages and was happy to see that protein is around 25% (fat 47%, carbs 28%). Once protein gets over 25-30% of total intake it starts putting a lot of pressure on the kidneys to filter it out and convert to urea. I drink about 3-4 quarts of water a day so I'm probably fine but it's hard to avoid going over 30% protein, if over 90% of your diet is protein and fat. A lot of books say a 1:1 fat to protein ratio by calories is good, but in reality most foods are closer to 2:1 fat to protein on a caloric basis (that would be just under 1:1 fat to protein on a gram basis since fat is 2.25x calories per gram compared to protein). So...although this can vary, on average if you are only taking in 5% carbs or less on a 2000 calorie/day diet, you are taking in 63-65% fat and 30-35% protein.
> 
> If you look at it as a total intake and not by percentage: my total intake is around 3000 calories, so 25% protein is 750 calories, around 188 grams, weight is about 66 kg, so 2.84 grams of protein intake per kg per day. The medical textbooks recommend 1.50 grams of protein/kg/day. So I'm not quite at 2x the recommended amount. If I was on the ketogenic diet and was taking in 3000 calories/day, I'd be over twice the recommended daily protein intake. The effects of that are going to vary based on genetics. Not everyone is going to do well. You really don't want to screw up your kidneys; once there is damage past a certain point it's basically irreversible. So you should definitely get a kidney function test every once in a while, just to be safe.
> 
> Last but not least, this will probably raise more questions than it answers but too much protein can also lead to a mild form of metabolic acidosis. If you feel tired and sluggish, and don't get out of that funk after a certain period of time, then genetically you are not built for something like the ketogenic diet and need something a bit more balanced. There are volumes of papers and books written about this, but I'll just keep it simple and say if this diet doesn't make you feel better after say 4-5 months it may not ever work for you.


I've had 11 BMP/CBC/LFT/UA screens over the past 5 years to track changes with Keto. Every value has improved and falls right down the middle, the only exception being my total cholesterol, however my HDL/LDL ratio puts me at 1/2 normal risk for cardiovascular disease, at 40. High protein diets however lean a person toward AKI or CKD as they shed protien, especially when calorie deficient and the body goes into starvation with a protein adapted metabolisim, rhabdomyoalysis occurs as you metabolize you own muscle, clogging the nephrons, trashing your filtering acutley, then permanently if not resolved. Acidosis is really only a factor as respiratory acidosis when in early adaptation yeilds high ketone bodies, but the kidneys don't fail with bicarb compensation as I understand. I'm a Cardiovascular Thoracic CCRN and have a pretty solid background in physiologic function. Of course, I've been incorrect before too....lol


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## Spec44 (Aug 17, 2013)

Charlie Don't Surf said:


> The thing with Keto is a metabolic change. In order for your body to adapt (I) had to adopt a very strict carb intake of less than 20g to stay on ketosis, especially on the first few months. The leg heaviness and lack of performance is your body working it out. Electrolyte levels, sodium and potassium and your body shedding Ck inflammatory agents lead to this for a while. Boosting on a ride with gel etc will not help you in the long run with keto, carbs are carbs... don't fall for the net carb deal... that's a crock. 2 grams of cocaine (for example) have the same effect on your body physiologically regardless of how much healthy whatever you mix it with. Your body will always burn carbs first (other than ETOH) because it's the least complex and less stable component on intake. Push through it and you'll see the gains


Ok, thanks.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

felix1776 said:


> I started back on Keto about 3 weeks ago. I've been trying to lean up and was on a more balanced diet but had sort of plateaued. Got on Keto and the scale starting moving again within a few days. I've been able to lift on Keto and still felt strong. Went on my first ride this morning since going back on keto and my climbing power was garbage. I'm thinking I'm going to have to take the TKD approach and ingest 40-50g of carbs before riding.


What is this TKD approach that you speak of?



Spec44 said:


> I'm in the same boat, about 2 weeks in, and am fine while in the aerobic zones. But when I hit hills and my HR increases over LTHR I get that quad burn and heavy legs. Just tough it out? I want to lose some fat, and more importantly get the health and endurance benefits.
> 
> I've been experimenting. One Hammer gel (24gcarbs) on the way to the trail makes a huge difference, and I ASSUME I burn it up without affecting my ketosis. I can pretty much tell after about an hour that it's used up. I've done this the last couple group rides so I can keep up. But otherwise I feel good on the flats and down hills.
> 
> ...


As I mentioned in a few posts above, I started the Keto thing the 1st week in January. The initial transition seemed to go pretty easy. However, when I started riding again I found myself being hit-or-miss. I was mainly riding my MTB for fun and sometimes I felt ok and sometimes I felt flat. These were 2 hr +/- group rides with some friends. However, at about 2 weeks into riding again, I did my first road ride thru some medium hills (along side a fit friend) for 3hrs, and I felt like CRAP. It was embarrassing. The next day I felt like I had a hangover. I even went home early from work to rest and recoup. I nearly gave up at that point.

I started doing some more online research (and podcasts) and ran across a coach for some Euro road racing team who says his low-carb racers eat a small steak and a potato the night before a race. So I went to the store and cooked it all up. I felt considerably better the next day. Therefore, here I am 2 weeks past that moment and this Saturday I just had my biggest day yet. I did a 70mi spirited group road ride, which had me door-to-door at 4.5 hrs total. I ATE NOTHING the entire time and had a very nice ride. I felt this may be the first sign that I'm nearly switched over. [FYI- once again, I ate a small fatty steak and small sweet potato w/butter & sour cream night before].

My suggestion to you guys who are trying to work this out, is to keep at it and don't be afraid to experiment 'smartly'. I'm still not 100% certain in regards to my riding performance, but I feel its getting better. I'm glad to see this thread come back alive and I appreciate everyones input.

Thanks
CJB


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## felix1776 (Nov 14, 2016)

CBaron said:


> What is this TKD approach that you speak of?
> 
> As I mentioned in a few posts above, I started the Keto thing the 1st week in January. The initial transition seemed to go pretty easy. However, when I started riding again I found myself being hit-or-miss. I was mainly riding my MTB for fun and sometimes I felt ok and sometimes I felt flat. These were 2 hr +/- group rides with some friends. However, at about 2 weeks into riding again, I did my first road ride thru some medium hills (along side a fit friend) for 3hrs, and I felt like CRAP. It was embarrassing. The next day I felt like I had a hangover. I even went home early from work to rest and recoup. I nearly gave up at that point.
> 
> ...


TKD means Targeted Ketogenic Diet. It basically means you're full keto except for when you know you're going to be exercising very intensely. Then you take in 25-50g of carbs simply to fuel your workout. When the workouts done, back to full keto.


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

One other potential contributing factor may be electrolyte levels. Ketogenic diet can cause hyponatremia, or low sodium levels due to our "normal" taught sodium intake of less than 2g per day. The day before and the day of my ride I up sodium to 5g, which in turn holds more H20 and has more fuel available for muscular aerobic metabolism


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Charlie Don't Surf said:


> Acidosis is really only a factor as respiratory acidosis when in early adaptation yeilds high ketone bodies, but the kidneys don't fail with bicarb compensation as I understand.


I look at this a bit differently. Respiratory acidosis is when there is not enough CO2 excretion through the lungs, and the respiratory rate is not high enough to compensate for the increased acid load generated by protein catabolism. To me this can vary a lot by genetics, hence the keto diet can be OK for some people but not others.

It's not really the respiratory response yielding high ketone bodies, it's a side product of glucose production (gluconeogenesis) by the liver in response to a low (or zero) carb diet.

Yes, bicarbonate can help prevent metabolic acidosis, but what I was getting at earlier is that protein, acidic or not, is significantly more difficult to break down and filter out of the body via urea production compared with fats or carbs. The rest in general we probably agree on.


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## zasa1982 (Dec 3, 2017)

What a fascinating thread! I'm 4 months into the low-carb diet and have been using a blood monitor to track glucose and ketone levels. I didn't experience the flu like many of you have but did struggle with sleep for about two weeks. Magnesium tablets and reischi tea sorted that out and I've been feeling fantastic ever since.

My focus is marathon XC, so have been loving the riding on minimal to no added fuel with no bonk. One thing that is of interest to me and based on some of what you guys have posted is the power impact. I don't have a power meter to quantify the changes so anything I state is subjective:
1. I felt like a lost a bit of power during the first 2 months, but then again I was avoiding big anaerobic efforts to help with the transition to low-carb (this was key)
2. I feel like I have gained that power back, and in fact feel stronger when climbing though this probably has more to do with lower weight and better p2w ratio.

Endurance is like never before but the best part is the significantly lower levels of inflammation. That was the selling point for me. Low-carb addresses other issues not just fuel to ride and seems to achieve this with minimal negative impacts. I've suffered from lower back pains for ages, despite active strength training and stretching. There is s ton of recent research that talks about the inflammation impacts, stuff I'm more than happy to share on this forum if needed. Then there is the general mood swings, mental focus, sleep levels.....

CBaron - how are things travelling now?

Note: I don't consider myself a 'gifted' athlete. Far from it! I wasn't born with any genes that separate myself form the average guy. I say this because those that are a 'natural' athletes can probably use any type of diet and still perform well. I'm more interested in what works for those of us that need every possible edge to be competitive. Keeping a blog as well for those that are interested: Blog


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## squashyo (Oct 28, 2003)

midwestmtb said:


> Bottomline is, if you eat fewer calories than you burn, you will lose fat. But if you eat more calories than you burn, you will gain fat. Doesn't matter whether those calories come from carbs, protein or fat. A fat burner who eats more calories from fat than he burns will not lose body fat. But it is often very easy to eat fewer calories on a low carb diet because eating tons of fat becomes monotonous. So it is a good way to trick yourself into eating less overall calories. There is really no magic here beyond the calorie equation.


I found this very hard to do on a carb diet. I ride about 5 days a week and exercise a ton and on carbs, I was STARVING after a big ride. I would eat for hours trying to abate the starving feeling. This high fat diet leaves me with a very low appetite even after huge rides. Sure, I get hungry bt not nearly to the degree as when I was on carbs. I believe because fat burns slower, there are always reserves to keep the energy flowing and the hunger at bay. Just my perspective and I am a moron.


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## squashyo (Oct 28, 2003)

spsoon said:


> I've been doing this for a few months. I don't care about any of these arguments about ancestry, evolution, natural vs artificial, or "logic" about what we're "meant" to eat. All that matters to me is results; ideology is irrelevant.
> 
> I've mainly followed Stephen Phinney's guidelines for formulating a ketogenic diet. All of his recommendations are evidence-based and backed by clinical studies. He has a very good book relating this type of diet to athletic performance:
> http://a.co/hBAC8Uz
> ...


Nailed it. This has mirrored my experience. I'm Keto just over a year.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

zasa1982 said:


> What a fascinating thread! I'm 4 months into the low-carb diet and have been using a blood monitor to track glucose and ketone levels. I didn't experience the flu like many of you have but did struggle with sleep for about two weeks. Magnesium tablets and reischi tea sorted that out and I've been feeling fantastic ever since.
> 
> My focus is marathon XC, so have been loving the riding on minimal to no added fuel with no bonk. One thing that is of interest to me and based on some of what you guys have posted is the power impact. I don't have a power meter to quantify the changes so anything I state is subjective:
> 1. I felt like a lost a bit of power during the first 2 months, but then again I was avoiding big anaerobic efforts to help with the transition to low-carb (this was key)
> ...


Thanks for the call-out zasa1982, I feel like things are beginning to come together for me. I'm currently at 7 weeks in and I can regularly do 4+ hr rides with no food needed. These rides have all been road rides with a good amount of wind and a few punchy efforts too. I've simply yet to get 'hungry' during a ride.

That being said, I don't necessarily feel as fast/strong as I did prior. I too spent some time off the bike while transitioning over, and more so, I think I feel the effects of having to build "new energy systems" as I become fat adapted. They say that one can be 80% fat adapted in about 4 months (and I feel like I'm running at about 65%). But I'm also starting to see Strava PR's pop up. So thats a good sign (even though I don't 'feel' as fast). I've got 1 more month to my Ouachita Challenge race and that should be a very interesting test (at the 3 month mark).

I've begun to tweak/experiment with some targeted carbs and I think its helping me. Like I said prior, when I would eat some portion(s) of sweet potato (Yam) the night before, I felt better energy and performance the next day. Recently, I've been having a post ride meal of a hash mixture with light potatoes too. This has been to combat previous sensation of feeling "hungover" the day after a decent ride. Its worked so far. Next up, I may experiment with small amount of carb gels during my ride. I've found a gel thats slightly lower in carbs than some others. My goal here is to try and help me get more top-end early in my ride. I think for a race, my starts will suffer until I get my new diesel engine going. YMMV

Lastly, I'll be going in to my Dr next week to have a full range of blood work done. I've been taking notes (via this thread) on what to have looked at. The good thing is that the Dr is a friend, who knows me and knows exactly the kind of riding I'm doing. I'm very curious as to what the blood work says. I'll come update the thread once I find out.

Thanks
CJB


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Getting ready to embark on a Keto plan March 1st. I was skeptical, but after a fair amount of research, it appears to be the magic bullet for a lot of people. A friend of mine who has struggled with his weight for decades lost 60 pounds on it.

About the only negatives I've seen are from self proclaimed internet experts who have no direct experience with keto. The government spent a lot of time and money telling everyone that fat was the enemy, and some people just don't seem to be able to let go of the idea even though it's been proven patently false.


.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

Lots of good info here. I started to have higher fat and track my food with "Samsung Health" app. With avocados, nuts and greek yogurt (plus vegetables, beans, some fruit and occasional cheat food like candy or meat when someone offers me) I seem to be a bit over 50% fat intake. 

Not sure if I should actively make more effort to get more fat (like more avocados instead of fruits). I eat meat and dairy, but want to limit animal fat and proteins for health reasons. When I go out or get offered I eat meat, but don't actively buy it for home. 99% of my food is home or brought from home. 

One thing I noticed on days with more fat is that I feel satiated for longer. But this may also be due to the fatty food having more calories (Avocado 322 kcal vs. Orange with 90 or so). 

I also think hunger is for nutrients, not necessarily calories. Once I gave my body vitamins, calcium, potassium etc. I feel less hungry regardless of how many calories that was. On the other hand if you eat a lot of calories without those nutrients (e.g. Mcdonalds) you still feel hungry since the body still needs those. The Samsung app (and many others) made me realize most food is poor in potassium and fiber. I started out by eating more meat etc., but still was short of essential nutrients. now calcium is the only one I'm short unless I get dairy. I made a spread sheet with the food I eat and calories, nutrients (e.g. mg Potassium / 100 Kcal) and that way cna target better what i eat to get nutrients i lack. For example 1% milk has 282 mg calcium / 100 kcal, and cheese only has 177., bread only 43. Zucchini is very high in potassium per calorie... so with that information i can eat more of the food that has nutrients i seem to be short of. If you eat a lot of meat and dairy, you'll be short of fiber, if you eat no dairy, calcium may be a problem (kiwi and Orange good fruit for calcium, Kale and lettuce also good). 

I try to stay at 1700 calories to lose weight (6' at 176 lb right now, I target 10 kcal/lb per day for 10 more pounds to lose). With very little food and occasional cheat food (e.g. someone brings donuts to office) is is hard to meet all my nutrients without eating a lot, but with the app and spreadsheet it helps to meet the target.


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## zasa1982 (Dec 3, 2017)

CBaron said:


> That being said, I don't necessarily feel as fast/strong as I did prior. I too spent some time off the bike while transitioning over, and more so, I think I feel the effects of having to build "new energy systems" as I become fat adapted.


If you've lost weight then I think you will gain that back pretty quick once you do a build stage or two, assuming you're using periodisation with your training. I've found banana's to work extremely well during marathon and shorter XC races. Are you tracking your nutrients?

I'm currently hovering around the 72kg/158lbs but really want to get down to 69kg/152lbs . Even at the current weight climbing feels so much better so another small drop should hit the sweet spot.

Is anyone here trying intermittent fasting?


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## zasa1982 (Dec 3, 2017)

HerrKaLeun said:


> Not sure if I should actively make more effort to get more fat (like more avocados instead of fruits). I eat meat and dairy, but want to limit animal fat and proteins for health reasons. When I go out or get offered I eat meat, but don't actively buy it for home. 99% of my food is home or brought from home.


Technically speaking avocado is a fruit  Try nuts, eggs, coconut or olive oil, coconut cream or milk.

I've cut back down on the fruit significantly. I add black or blue berries to my shakes because they are low carb and have plenty antioxidants.


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

zasa1982 said:


> Technically speaking avocado is a fruit  Try nuts, eggs, coconut or olive oil, coconut cream or milk.
> 
> I've cut back down on the fruit significantly. I add black or blue berries to my shakes because they are low carb and have plenty antioxidants.


Good stuff right here.^^^^ Fat bombs with chilled coconut oil, unsweetened coconut flakes, almonds and 88% dark chocolate from Aldi are good too.

Intermittent fasting works for me, in fact pre ride fasting seems key to my XC training


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

zasa1982 said:


> If you've lost weight then I think you will gain that back pretty quick once you do a build stage or two, assuming you're using periodisation with your training. I've found banana's to work extremely well during marathon and shorter XC races. Are you tracking your nutrients?
> 
> I'm currently hovering around the 72kg/158lbs but really want to get down to 69kg/152lbs . Even at the current weight climbing feels so much better so another small drop should hit the sweet spot.
> 
> Is anyone here trying intermittent fasting?


I was on intermittent fasting for years. Started out hardcore, every other day, then cut back to three days a week after losing a bunch of weight, then cut back to two just to maintain.

Got into 16:8 fasting recently, and it's a lot more livable. Lost a little weight on it, would probably lose weight more easily on it in warmer months where it's easier to get out and ride before eating.

Not doing any fasting for at least the first 30 days of this keto thing. Might go back to the 16:8 plan as more of a lifestyle after some time in keto.

.


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## felix1776 (Nov 14, 2016)

Here's the thing about keto. The clinical studies have shown that, when calories and protein are equated, a person doesn't lose any more weight on keto than they do on high carb/low fat. However, that's in a CLINICAL scenario. Most of us live in the real world. I think the biggest advantage to Keto is the appetite suppressing properties. When I'm keto, I rarely get hungry and when I do it's pretty mild. 

Even though I'm decently athletic, I'm a natural fat kid. I'm always hungry and put on weight very easily especially when my carbs are high. I come from a family of Type 2 diabetics so I assume I have some insulin sensitivity issues. While I don't think Keto is a great long term diet, if you're a fat kid trying to get your weight under control, I think Keto is hard to beat. 

My only complaint is that my performance ceiling for high intensity exercise: lifting and MTB is clearly lower.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

zasa1982 said:


> Technically speaking avocado is a fruit  Try nuts, eggs, coconut or olive oil, coconut cream or milk.
> 
> I've cut back down on the fruit significantly. I add black or blue berries to my shakes because they are low carb and have plenty antioxidants.


I'll add some olive oil and nuts to my salad (currently have salad with 1/2 spoon oil and 1/2 ounce nuts. i assume you don't mean drinking olive oil like in a cup.

I started eating some beans since I was short of protein. but realized the Great northern beans I had last night had no fat (and tasted like potatoes). I'll try some black beans that have some fat. I noticed what is on the package differs from my app. for example pinto beans show 1g fat on the package, but online it looks they don't have fat.

it still seems a challenge to go 50% fat. i eat a lot of vegetables (a LOT) and some fruit (trying to trade to vegetables more and fatty food). I try to stay away from processed food as much as I can



felix1776 said:


> Here's the thing about keto. The clinical studies have shown that, when calories and protein are equated, a person doesn't lose any more weight on keto than they do on high carb/low fat. However, that's in a CLINICAL scenario. Most of us live in the real world. I think the biggest advantage to Keto is the appetite suppressing properties. When I'm keto, I rarely get hungry and when I do it's pretty mild.


I think this is the key, at given amount of calories it wouldn't matter if you eat fat or carbs for losing weight. But with carbs I still feel hungry, so I eat more.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Day 3 on Keto. Went for a longer ride today, and it was weird. Around the mid point, not too long after stopping to have a snack of summer sausage and cheese, my coordination got all messed up. To the point that I crashed because of it. Not dizzy, or lightheaded or anything like that, just not putting it all together on the technical stuff like usual. It went away, and a sharp mental focus returned for the remainder of the ride. Don't know what to make of it, if anything.

In other news, the keto test strips say I'm now in "deep" ketosis. The scale says I'm down 4.5 pounds.

.


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## zasa1982 (Dec 3, 2017)

Dude that is awesome! Not that crash obviously but the focus. Bulletproof coffee I've found to work well before rides i.e. long black with ghee fat and MCT oil. Good work on the weight too. What's your target?


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

_CJ said:


> Day 3 on Keto. Went for a longer ride today, and it was weird. Around the mid point, not too long after stopping to have a snack of summer sausage and cheese, my coordination got all messed up. To the point that I crashed because of it. Not dizzy, or lightheaded or anything like that, just not putting it all together on the technical stuff like usual. It went away, and a sharp mental focus returned for the remainder of the ride. Don't know what to make of it, if anything.
> 
> In other news, the keto test strips say I'm now in "deep" ketosis. The scale says I'm down 4.5 pounds.
> 
> .


 Takes about 2 weeks or longer to really become fat adapted, you experienced the "keto flu" expect it singe more as you adapt. Basically, your body is still trying to get its calories from its trained (carbs) source, and you bonked. It goes [email protected]


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

zasa1982 said:


> Dude that is awesome! Not that crash obviously but the focus. Bulletproof coffee I've found to work well before rides i.e. long black with ghee fat and MCT oil. Good work on the weight too. What's your target?


Coffee is a good idea. I usually try to drink coffee or tea before a ride, but didn't this time.

My weight normally fluctuates about 10 pounds winter/summer, and I'd be happy with that, but I'd really like to get down below 200 and maintain it. It's been a long time since I was that low.

What do you guys know about alcohol on keto. I'm not finding much information. Some say it's fine, or actually deepens the keto state, others say it'll slow weight loss. I'll be abstaining for the first two weeks, but might like to incorporate some low carb beer or whiskey after that.

.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

One week in, down 6.6 pounds. Certainly some water weight in there initially, but I was surprised when the scale said I was down 2 pounds since last saturday which was a post-ride (dehydrated) weight. My wife is down 5 pounds, said it's the easiest 5 pounds she's ever lost.

This keto thing seems to be for real. It reminds me of how we used to eat when I was a little kid, before the low-fat craze took over.

Best meal I've made so far is bangers and mash. Cauliflower mashed potatoes, sausage, onion gravy, and roasted green beans. A little carb heavy at 13g per serving, but didn't exceed my macro numbers for the day.


.


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## JDHutch (Sep 29, 2017)

Started 6'2" 225 and down to 200 on the no sugar no grains diet. I have found that if I go too low with carbs I start to feel like crap (keto flu) and lack energy on rides. I started eating potatoes or rice the night before or morning of a ride and mixing in Clif bars for additional energy. They run about 40 grams of carbs. So its more carbs than I want to eat but I believe my body needs them and I'm at a weight that I'm happy with as long as I can maintain it and not add more.


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## pkerry11 (Jan 31, 2015)

I've been very low carb, mostly meat and eggs for a few months now. So far, cycling performance is quite good as I become fully adapted.


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## pkerry11 (Jan 31, 2015)

This is the exact post I've been looking for, especially regarding shorter races with higher intensities like 40-50 minute crits or 30-40 mile road races. It sounds like you don't or wouldn't see any need to up carb intake in preparation for something like that. Some seem to think adding carbs would help on the high end efforts/sprints, but I think you've answered that for me. FWIW, I plan to give it a try this spring closer to zero carb and see how it goes. I've been very low carb, mostly meat and eggs for a few months now. If anyone is racing on Zero Carb or carnivore diet, I'd be interested to hear.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Ok so I went out Monday and did 6hrs of riding at a fairly spirited pace. Strava shows I burned 3k calories and I only took in 400 calories during my ride. I'd say that I'm pretty well fat-adapted. 
https://www.strava.com/activities/1449950329#comments

I'm feeling much better about my Ouachita Challenge race in Arkansas in about 10 days. I've been able to work out my process and system with regards to my Keto nutrition. At least, as much as it will apply to my event. However, I really wish that I could find a good resource to answer some of my specific questions that could help me further dial things in (or at least guide my thoughts on keto nutrition for 'my kind of athlete').

Here's an example:
-I've fully established (to myself) that I can/could go out and ride 3-5 hrs and not consume any calories. At this time I can also run a pretty steady strong pace at a PE that is just below LT (for most part). My question is...would it be better for me to consume (fat) calories? Does supplying myself with quality fats through out my ride benefit me performance-wise (in that zone)?

-Follow up question: I've been dabbling with taking in some carbs/sugars during my ride(s). I've yet to consume more than a Hammer Gel, or Honey Stinger Waffle (mid-ride). But I can't say that I really notice much from it. Does dumping these (high glycemic) carbs into my system (mid-ride) negatively impact my fat-fuel process? Do I all of the sudden switch over to glycogen burn and thus loose my fat-burn? If no, what happens with the carbs? If yes, then how quickly do I transition back over (minutes? hours?)

I may have a few more, but I wanted to throw these out there to see if anyone has opinions, fact or data to point me to? I feel like I've got a pretty good "general" feel for whats going on (with me). I'm for sure comfortable at my current performance/knowledge level. I'd just like to keep tweaking and know what dials/levers to turn/push.

Thanks
CJB


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## pkerry11 (Jan 31, 2015)

My opinion from listening to various endurance athletes (cyclists and runners) is that you could well be fine without consuming anything, including carbs during your race. That said, introducing some carbs here and there during the race could give you a boost - some say using carbs in this way is like a PED for fat adapted racers. You might check out ultramarathoner Zach Bitter's regimen for taper and race - he's fat adapted but strategically introduces carbs, so it doesn't appear to inhibit the fat burning adaptation at all - link below. I suppose each person needs to experiment to really find out what works for them. Good luck on the race. 
https://zachbitter.com/blog/2017/07/17/periodizing_nutrition_part_4_-_taper_and_race


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Thanks for bringing up Zach Bitter! He's is one of the few Keto athletes that I've run across that seems to be in the arena of what we like to do. BUT HE IS WORLD CLASS! Additionally, he's (IMHO) a bit more long steady pacing than what I consider for my flavor. (honestly I'm ashamed to be even placing myself along with his name in the same sentence). But I have listened to a few podcasts that he's been on. The one(s) that you linked to, I've not yet seen. It looks like some very helpful info.

Here's the true nugget in your reply....
Sharman Ultra Endurance Coaching

Zach offers a 1 hr phone consultation regarding nutrition! Its on sale throughout the month of March for $50 (regular $125). Hot damn! I think I'm in. I'm certain I can fill up and hour. But if anyone out there wants to jump into (this thread) with some questions they might like to have me ask, feel free. Or you can PM me.

Thanks
CJB


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Any of you guys track your heart rate?

I've been noticing that my max heart rate is limited on the keto diet, which would be expected I guess, but it's also thumping along like a Mack truck. Super consistent throughout the ride, without any high peaks or low valleys. Like a nearly flat line, only varying up or down ~10 bpm. On sugar, it was all over the place, easily swinging up or down 80 bpm in a matter of minutes, maybe seconds.

I'm definitely lacking the peak power that I had before. Ended up walking a few short steep climbs today because I just didn't have the juice. It's like I'm starting out every ride pre-bonked, but never really get hungry, and power/energy doesn't drop off from the lower starting point.

I have to wonder though, if I end up 20-30-40 pounds lighter (down 9 pounds so far), will the steady as you go diesel power be faster than the high octane fueled heavyweight?


.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Again, I want to thank pkerry11 for posting up the Zach Bitter link. I've been reading his blog, and now, watching his youtube channel, and its giving me some more targeted insight into what I can/may do for my own nutrition process.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmTH6Cz_j8eYq8oiOHDoTXg/videos

A good portion of my questions are being answered thru his blog & videos. I.e. he doesn't take in any fats during a race. He says that he feels the body's natural fat-burn physiology is more efficient at the conversion than having exogenous fats be converted thru the digestive tract. Makes sense. Additionally, he carbo loads (read his blog) for the 2 days prior to a race, then moves back to fat-only just prior and at beginning of the race. The carbs he takes in are after the race has begun so that his body is actively in fat-burn mode.

Also worth noting that the longer the race is the less he feels he needs to consume! I sorta understand this with my own experimentation. But its crazy to see it come from him with the 12-24hr perspective targets!

Thanks again,
CJB


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## pkerry11 (Jan 31, 2015)

Hey, glad I could help. As a final note, I just learned that ZB is teaming up with Dr. Shawn Baker to do a podcast. If you haven't heard, SB is an orthopedic surgeon by trade and lifelong high level athlete that is currently setting age group world records on the concept 2 rower while on a meat only diet (for over a year). No carbs - ever. Again, not a cyclist, and so far his record distances are the relatively shorter ones. But the guy generates massive wattage - highly glycolitic efforts - and is starting to go after longer distance records. Fun to follow along and learn as he is highly knowledgeable about the physiology but doesn't pretend to know everything as he experiments with this approach.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Anyone out there want to give an update as to how things have been going for them? I know we had a few people jump on the LCHF wagon not too long ago.

I don't have the time to do it justice at the moment, but I'll come back here soon with my own update (and some feedback as to how my race [Ouachita Challenge] went).

Later,
CJB


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

CBaron said:


> Anyone out there want to give an update as to how things have been going for them? I know we had a few people jump on the LCHF wagon not too long ago.
> 
> I don't have the time to do it justice at the moment, but I'll come back here soon with my own update (and some feedback as to how my race [Ouachita Challenge] went).
> 
> ...


15 pounds in 6 weeks here. No issues. Blood pressure is lower, can ride the bike all day without eating if I want, never really get crazy hungry or have cravings like I used to. Drinking Miller Lite (3 carbs) and whiskey (0 carbs) regularly with no negative effects on the weightloss. I plan to stay on the diet, and incorporate some more unprocessed carbs back in when I hit my target weight. I've been trying to get away from processed foods for a long time now, and even without the weight loss, I just like eating this way.

.


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## JDHutch (Sep 29, 2017)

CBaron said:


> Anyone out there want to give an update as to how things have been going for them? I know we had a few people jump on the LCHF wagon not too long ago.
> 
> I don't have the time to do it justice at the moment, but I'll come back here soon with my own update (and some feedback as to how my race [Ouachita Challenge] went).
> 
> ...


My wife says don't get any skinnier so I'm stopping at 6'2" 200lbs. Low carb high fat diet lost me 25lbs and I've put on a lot of muscle in the gym. I'm experimenting with increasing my carbs to increase energy and stamina on my mountain bike rides. Anything over an hour is draining me. Still no bread but I'll eat pasta or rice 1-2 times a week and usually a 40g carb Clif bar before or during a ride. Lots of chicken, steak, broccoli, eggs, salad, cashews, etc. and only water or coffee (and occasionally adult beverage)


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

Your drained, likely, because your not actively in Keto with carb numbers that high. Not being critical, just saying - Still good for you on the 25#! 

I've stayed Keto for close to 5 years now, this year my power gains have been substantial, but it corresponds to my intake of protein. When I'm training, my protein numbers are increased to 30%, although I also increase my total caloric intake.


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## JDHutch (Sep 29, 2017)

Meant to say *was* draining me. I was drained without carbs while losing that weight, not to mention the headaches and feeling like crap that went along with it. I’ve added more carbs and now feel better on longer rides. I don’t have all the answers...just know that going that low on carbs and trying to ride didn’t work that well for me and I feel like others had the same experience. I can eat a very small amount of carbs, feel better, ride better and maintain my current weight.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

What % of fat do you guys actually eat when you say "keto"? I eat around 50-50% fat (tracked with Samsung Health app), but I doubt this is really Keto. 

BTW, most of my carbs are raw fruits and vegetables. I limit dairy and meat since that would make me lack fiber, potassium etc.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

HerrKaLeun said:


> What % of fat do you guys actually eat when you say "keto"? I eat around 50-50% fat (tracked with Samsung Health app), but I doubt this is really Keto.
> 
> BTW, most of my carbs are raw fruits and vegetables. I limit dairy and meat since that would make me lack fiber, potassium etc.


My macros based on various keto diet calculators are 150g fat, 140g protein, 30g carbs. Percentages by weight are 47%F 44%P 9%C, and by calories are 67%F 28%P 6%C.

.


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

Typically I've been 80% fat, 15-17% protein and 2-5% carbs, when weight training I strive for 70/25/5. Zero sugar, natural berries only, carbs from berries, macadamia and pecans, 90% Cacco chocolate and broccoli. When I feel drained, I add more calories via fats, Avocado...MCT oils etc and it goes away. I'm also 5g/ day sodium during riding....big energy difference


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

_CJ said:


> My macros based on various keto diet calculators are 150g fat, 140g protein, 30g carbs. Percentages by weight are 47%F 44%P 9%C, and by calories are 67%F 28%P 6%C.
> 
> .





Charlie Don't Surf said:


> Typically I've been 80% fat, 15-17% protein and 2-5% carbs, when weight training I strive for 70/25/5. Zero sugar, natural berries only, carbs from berries, macadamia and pecans, 90% Cacco chocolate and broccoli. When I feel drained, I add more calories via fats, Avocado...MCT oils etc and it goes away. I'm also 5g/ day sodium during riding....big energy difference


Thanks. Yes I meant % on a calorie-basis. My main fat sources are Avocado, nuts, oilve oil (dressing). Greek yogurt provides some. But i have the feeling without eating meat it is hard to do and to get protein at the same time.

I bought some coconut flakes, but they are not really tasty on their own. I'm trying to avoid artificial things like chocolate (except the chocolate i eat for the taste

I guess I could eat more nuts and avocado. But I'm not sure if that gets old over time. I'm looking for a calcium source and till i find some i drink more milk. Oranges and Kiwis have calcium, but would require to eat a few of those, which would be quite some sugar.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

What's artificial about chocolate?  Good quality dark chocolate has very little sugar, although the cocoa itself has some carbs so don't go crazy.

I've been making my own high-fat (like 22-23%) yogurt. It's delicious and very satisfying.

Someone mentioned cashews. Be careful with those as they are pretty starchy.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

HerrKaLeun said:


> I guess I could eat more nuts and avocado. But I'm not sure if that gets old over time. I'm looking for a calcium source and till i find some i drink more milk. Oranges and Kiwis have calcium, but would require to eat a few of those, which would be quite some sugar.


I don't know that I could do it without nuts. They're a nice replacement for a handful of chips/crackers here and there.

I started out drinking almond milk, lots of calcium and low carb, but have switched to low carb regular milk to get more calories. Even regular whole milk occasionally. And the low carb chocolate milk is great. Avocado is fantastic on salads, and in breakfast burritos with eggs, cheese, and green chili (with low carb tortilla). Getting enough fat is still difficult, so I snack on cheese, and add creme to the eggs I scramble for my morning omelette or burrito. Smoked salmon has a good amount too, and I eat that for lunch a lot.

Are you doing this full vegan? That would be tough.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Just to come back and contribute to the thread that I bumped the other day....

I've been in Keto now for about 3.5 months. I did 60 miles and 5hr 50min at the Ouachita Challenge at about 2.5 months of Keto. It was a B-race for me and I accomplished my goal of top 25 in my class with a 24th place finish. Interesting stat is that according to Strava I burned 4700 calories during that ride....and I only took in 450 calories exogenously. I based my calorie consumption on some of the strategy that I gleaned from the Zach Bitter content that was linked to earlier in the thread. I.e. I made sure I was in Ketosis the morning of the event and I only took in carbs via HammerGel (low sugars) every hour beginning about 1.5 min into event. Truth was, I ended up finding even that was too much/many carbs. So about 3/4 thru I stopped consuming them and still finished very strong. I've done MANY rides now in the 4-5 hr range and found I really don't need to consume any calories.

A very important part of my riding nutrition is that I've found I need to take in some sweet potato (specifically) carbs the night before a legit ride. Otherwise, I find that I feel a bit flat during medium-high output rides. Additionally, I feel like sweet potatoes are the key for me. I've experimented with white potatoes, other veggie carbs (broccoli, carrots, strawberry, beans, etc) and SP work perfectly for me. I *feel* better with them added in...and I don't get kicked out of ketosis like has happened a few time with other carb experimentations.

So here are some question I've got. If anyone has any insight or feedback, then I'd much appreciate it.

-I've been kicked out of ketosis 3x's now. All 3x's its been a little bit of a surprise. I feel like with high-glycemic carbs (such as 4 sips of wine, and small bits of matzo at Passover and small serving of butternut squash), I pop right outa Ketosis. I'm measuring with urine strips. 

Here are my questions:
-Anyone else had any experiences like this?
-Is it possible that I'm still *IN* ketosis but the urine strips are just not accurate enough considering that I'm pretty much now fat-adapted?
-It takes me about 48 hrs for my color to change back on the strips. Would this mean that if I went on a bigger ride, that I'd now be subject to quick hunger pains and bonking during this time?

These questions have caused me to start tracking my macros. I've been doing so for about 8 days now and they're pretty much exactly what I thought they'd be. I'm at a 70/20/10 ratio of caloric percentages. And I'm sitting around 2-2.5 to 1 of fat to protein when measured in grams.

Sorry for the long reply. This has just been one of the best places for me to receive and then share info as it specifically relates to my eating method and subsequent athletic activity (cycling)!

Thanks
CJB


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

CBaron said:


> So here are some question I've got. If anyone has any insight or feedback, then I'd much appreciate it.
> 
> -I've been kicked out of ketosis 3x's now. All 3x's its been a little bit of a surprise. I feel like with high-glycemic carbs (such as 4 sips of wine, and small bits of matzo at Passover and small serving of butternut squash), I pop right outa Ketosis. I'm measuring with urine strips.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that once you're fat adapted, the strips aren't reliable, and are really more an indicator of hydration.

.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

I don't have anything to back this up, but my feeling is that once you're fat-adapted, your moment-to-moment ketone levels are not important because your adaptation isn't undone as soon as your ketones drop. As long as you're not habitually eating enough carbs to undo your adaptation, I think you should be fine. I would speculate that you'd probably have to completely fall off the wagon for a week or more to have significant impact on your ability to use fat for fuel.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

spsoon said:


> I don't have anything to back this up, but my feeling is that once you're fat-adapted, your moment-to-moment ketone levels are not important because your adaptation isn't undone as soon as your ketones drop. As long as you're not habitually eating enough carbs to undo your adaptation, I think you should be fine. I would speculate that you'd probably have to completely fall off the wagon for a week or more to have significant impact on your ability to use fat for fuel.


THIS^^^ is another question I've pondered.

For instance, could I roll into a ride (being fully adapted), but not in actual ketosis and still not need to eat for 4-5hrs of steady riding? Related tangent: Here's Zach Bitters Phase 3 periodization overview. Its the phase were is macros are highest in carbs. 
https://zachbitter.com/blog/2017/05/06/periodizing_nutrition_part_3_-_specified_phase Does he still maintain a state of Ketosis at these levels during his training?

I guess part of what I'm asking is that once I'm almost fully fat-adapted, what does a full state of nutritional ketosis do (or not do) for my riding & training?

My carb consumption is pretty low. I'd bet I've been keeping it under 30-35 grams a day. However, I do feel a bit flat on basic (fun) rides. However, on rides that I know will require some output, I pre-eat my sweet potato and fell pretty darn good during the ride the next day. I think I'm going to purchase a blood ketone meter so that I can measure exactly what's going on with my food experimentation and blood levels.

In summary though, when I re-read my post, it may sound like I'm frustrated. Thats not the case at all; I'm more so intrigued. I've been doing this essentially as a physiological experiment and I want to get the most out of it. I know thats not currently the case. Because when I look at my cumulative riding summary on Strava, with the kind of riding/racing/training I've been doing I'd normally be further along. Thus, I'm looking to try and unlock that mystery with some of these dialogues and questions.

Thanks again fellas, keep it coming!

Later,
CJB


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

I'm very low carb avg 2-5%, not the fastest on local trails, but top 10-25% per Strava most. The only thing I feel I lack at all is the "burst" in the first 5 min of my ride while I'm still anerobic, once I'm aerobic, I'm golden. I'm not sold on tje carb load on day before riding, because chemically you only process carbs one way, and they burn quickly, leaving no reserve. Don't know, maybe the benefit felt is more vitamins supplement? I do Sodium load day before though.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Due to some of the questions I've been rolling around with, and some the topics that have been brought up recently, I've been out searching/reading the net for info. I ran across this 3 part blog post that seems to be pretty informative. It gets very close to answering some of my specific questions. The only really missing piece is that I'd like to see it tied in directly to athletic performance, rather that slanted towards weight loss.

Tuit Nutrition: Being Fat Adapted Versus "In Ketosis" (Pt.1/3)

Ya'll have a good weekend.
-CJB


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

The wife and I watched this documentary on Netflix last night. Really mind blowing stuff. If you have any friends or family who are skeptical of the whole keto thing, share this documentary with them.






.


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## Gonzo 1971 (Apr 9, 2013)

Just startec eating keto myself. I have been following the thread. I see the problem with this doc that they push the gluten free, non gmo, organic crap. This diet has proven effects while this other stuff in junk science. It really undermines the science to most edjucated observers.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Gonzo 1971 said:


> It really undermines the science to most edjucated observers.


Having an opinion doesn't make you educated, or correct.

.


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## Gonzo 1971 (Apr 9, 2013)

Science does prove me correct. It is not an opinion.


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## Gonzo 1971 (Apr 9, 2013)

The rest of the doc is pretty darn good.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Gonzo 1971 said:


> Science does prove me correct. It is not an opinion.


Some people DO actually have issues with gluten. It's actually a disease.
Some people DO have chemical sensitivities that are addressed by organic foods.
Some people DO prefer to eat food that is how god intended.

What I find interesting is how people like you are somehow morally offended at the mere mention of organic, non-gmo, gluten free.

.


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## Gonzo 1971 (Apr 9, 2013)

Your missing me entirley. It is a waste of money. Your welcome to spend your money on that stuff. If it is not proven by science why try to push people. Time and time again it is proven that organic food is just a label. That is a fact. Gluten free is not helping you unles you have celiac disease. GMO has been happening since man started farming. We should focus more on getting away from harmful fats like corn oil, margarine etc. So I did voice my opinion on that doc based of FACTS. Not huggy bear feel good hippy psuedo science. Not offended or any personal attack. This doc hamstrings itself on psuedo science and half truths.


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## Gonzo 1971 (Apr 9, 2013)

"People like me" you dont know me except for a couple paragraphs. That was pretty rude.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Gonzo 1971 said:


> If it is not proven by science why try to push people.


Would that be the same science that sold us high carb, low fat diets as a path to health an well being for the past 50 years? The same science that has told us fat is bad for us for the past 50 years?

Strange that you're willing to throw over those teachings, which are still widely accepted as "scientific fact", but unwilling to consider that they might be wrong about other things.

Your use of the phrase "hippy psuedo science", tells me your objection to Organic, Non-GMO, gluten free, etc. is probably politically based, which is pretty typical.

Think what you want. Believe you're somehow intellectually superior in your allegiance to "science". Whatever. I'm done with you on the topic. Thanks for mucking up a good thread with your personal politics.

.


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## Gonzo 1971 (Apr 9, 2013)

Dont be butt hurt home cheese. Some things in life are just facts. If you disagree with proven scientific fact the burden of proof is on you. Show me I am all ears. I did not come here to troll or be berated. You posted a link and gave my opinion. Fathead on youtube is much better with less bologna. Watch it. You like it. Cant we just be friends?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

In any case.....check it out guys!



_CJ said:


> The wife and I watched this documentary on Netflix last night. Really mind blowing stuff. If you have any friends or family who are skeptical of the whole keto thing, share this documentary with them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

Anyone have luck eating keto when the rest of your family isn't interested? I did keto for a while and felt great but my wife isn't interested, which often meant nearly completely different meals for myself vs what her and the kids were eating.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

ryguy79 said:


> Anyone have luck eating keto when the rest of your family isn't interested? I did keto for a while and felt great but my wife isn't interested, which often meant nearly completely different meals for myself vs what her and the kids were eating.


That's why I have such a battle. I have to make separate food all the time. So I'll go for a while then fall off when things get too crazy like right now with 2 kids in separate sports.

I do watch my carb intake though. I avoid pasta as much as possible, I have separate bread that is really low actual carbs (really high fiber). 2 pieces is less carbs than 1 piece of regular bread.

I've found I can only do ketone instead of just low carb when I'm not training/riding hard constantly. My endurance is fine but I'm at about 1/2 power and ability to maintain climbs is gone. But just watching my carbs I keep my ketone level endurance without dying. I accidentally eat too many carbs and I feel like crap though. Delicate balance for me almost as if I'm still in ketosis but I'm eating 100-150g of carbs a day, really hard day of riding I end up with slightly more than 150.

I dont have test strips or anything though.

I can say though my entire house could use a major carb reduction including my oldest boy.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## squashyo (Oct 28, 2003)

Chime in time. I was Keto for 1.5 years until this week. It was friggin' great up until about 3 months ago. I was fit as heck, blood pressure normalized, etc. Then I got blood work done this last quarter and LDLs were really high. Then I started getting headaches everyday (only at night for some reason), and my heart beat was crazy strong (i could feel the pounding of my pulse in my head and body. I tried to eliminate foods like chocolate and coffee but the headaches were relentless. I finally quit Keto last week. Bummed about it because carb living is hard...I'm always hungry...but the headaches did go away.

Not sure what to do but might give vegan a try.

Keto is amazing but I learned it wasn't for me. Wish it was...I got pretty ripped and fit.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

squashyo said:


> Chime in time. I was Keto for 1.5 years until this week. It was friggin' great up until about 3 months ago. I was fit as heck, blood pressure normalized, etc. Then I got blood work done this last quarter and LDLs were really high. Then I started getting headaches everyday (only at night for some reason), and my heart beat was crazy strong (i could feel the pounding of my pulse in my head and body. I tried to eliminate foods like chocolate and coffee but the headaches were relentless. I finally quit Keto last week. Bummed about it because carb living is hard...I'm always hungry...but the headaches did go away.
> 
> Not sure what to do but might give vegan a try.
> 
> Keto is amazing but I learned it wasn't for me. Wish it was...I got pretty ripped and fit.


This happens to me if I eat a lot of beef. And believe it or not no alcohol. Beef can convert into glucose easily compare to other protein sources. And its speculated that sugar is put in it to improve flavor. 2 diabetics I know need insulin after eating beef but not with chicken or eggs.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

RAKC Ind said:


> That's why I have such a battle. I have to make separate food all the time. So I'll go for a while then fall off when things get too crazy like right now with 2 kids in separate sports.
> 
> I do watch my carb intake though. I avoid pasta as much as possible, I have separate bread that is really low actual carbs (really high fiber). 2 pieces is less carbs than 1 piece of regular bread.
> 
> ...


Daily meals with people that don't keto is possible. A meat, veggie and starch. You don't eat the starch. I'll eat an avacodo instead. It's also ok to have a cheat meal every now and then. I do it about every 10days to 2 weeks. It actually increases your metabolism.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

That's what I was doing but it gets very difficult when wife does the grocery shopping and everything is carb related. It's possible but it's a nightmare to try and do right now being so busy here. So I just do my best to watch my carbs and keep them as low as I can. I need to do solid several weeks of it again soon though.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## JamesPM (Apr 8, 2009)

Joshua_B said:


> No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.


THere are serious long term health concerns with a keto diet. You can cut weight quickly in a month, but most of it is water weight.

I tried it once, and found i got really bad muscle cramps when doing cardio on a keto diet.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

There's no health risk with a keto diet. There is a health risk if you eat the wrong foods. Its fun to eat stake, sausage, bacon and wings. But you shouldn't live on it. Chicken, salmon, avacodo, raw almonds, coconut oil and peanut butter tons of greens...and a low carb alcoholic beverage will give you great blood work and be very healthy.

Have a carb up cheat day weekly or bi weekly and your thyroid will work just fine.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

JamesPM said:


> THere are serious long term health concerns with a keto diet.


Nope, especially compared to a high carb / low fat diet. But let me guess.....is a scientific fact?



> You can cut weight quickly in a month, but most of it is water weight.


First week maybe, first month, not even close to being accurate. And the people I know who have lost 60 pounds? Yeah, it's obviously mostly fat they've lost.

.


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## Gonzo 1971 (Apr 9, 2013)

I have found that cutting carbs down almost out during the week. Then the night before a big ride, eats some carbs. Then some good carbs the morning of the ride. Fuel normal during the ride. Some recovery carbs after has really boosted my performance during that ride. I feel great the next day. I am still loosing a 2-3lbs a week. Feeling better than sub 30 carbs. I am averaging 60-80 carbs a day.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Cerberus75 said:


> There's no health risk with a keto diet. There is a health risk if you eat the wrong foods. Its fun to eat stake, sausage, bacon and wings. But you shouldn't live on it. Chicken, salmon, avacodo, raw almonds, coconut oil and peanut butter tons of greens...and a low carb alcoholic beverage will give you great blood work and be very healthy.
> 
> Have a carb up cheat day weekly or bi weekly and your thyroid will work just fine.


Actually this can be right or wrong. Depends on genetics. High fat diet regardless of main types of fat can end badly. There is good and bad fats, all fat is a mix of them. But foods with good fats have very small amounts of bad fats by comparison. But still bad and too much causes issues.

There is a lot of research showing keto diets for too long are bad for your health. Your body is meant to run on a balance. No one in history lived longer on a keto diet. If it was a great thing and not high risk for heart health the diet would be more widely used.

Instead there is a tipping point. The problem isnt carbs, it's the type of carbs. Proper carbs in proper amounts are needed to maintain balance. Keto is an extreme measure to deplete body fat (great thing till you hit a certain point) and treat medical conditions by exhausting food supply for said issues where as the body can adapt for a while.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

RAKC Ind said:


> Actually this can be right or wrong. Depends on genetics. High fat diet regardless of main types of fat can end badly. There is good and bad fats, all fat is a mix of them. But foods with good fats have very small amounts of bad fats by comparison. But still bad and too much causes issues.
> 
> There is a lot of research showing keto diets for too long are bad for your health. Your body is meant to run on a balance. No one in history lived longer on a keto diet. If it was a great thing and not high risk for heart health the diet would be more widely used.
> 
> ...


You're stuck in the past man. All that "science" the medical establishment has been pushing for the past 50 years is a lie, based on one egomaniac's theory. Modern research clearly shows a high fat low carb diet to be almost universally good for humans. It's how we're supposed to eat. Turn the food pyramid upside down, and you've got a good starting point.

.


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## JDHutch (Sep 29, 2017)

^^^^agree. It’s going to take a long time for people to adjust their thinking and realize what we’ve been taught is all wrong. I’m 100% on board with low carb high fat and no sugar. Still experimenting on how low I can go with the carbs and still have energy on the bike. Yesterday I ate a ribeye, avocado, and 3 eggs at 11am....at 1:30pm I rode 13 miles on a tough trail that took about an hour and a half. I was whipped because it’s a tough trail and I was riding with guys who were flying...but I had energy.


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## Gonzo 1971 (Apr 9, 2013)

"Science" you act like science is automatically false information. The problem stems back into the 1970s and politicians putting the hammer down and pushing their non scientific beliefs. Threatening to remove funding from those that dont promote pre conceived notions. Watch this. The second half speaks of how we got our messed up food pyrmids. Just watch it and you will be amazed at this sham that has been in place for so long.


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## Gonzo 1971 (Apr 9, 2013)

Carbs are the most readily available fuel source we have. I think a big part of why keto works so well is simply that you cut out the crap from your diet. Shift to meat and veggies. Healthy fats. Carbs should not ne demonized either. They are our quickest fuel source (although in general we eat too many).
https://peterattiamd.com/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-i/


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

RAKC Ind said:


> Actually this can be right or wrong. Depends on genetics. High fat diet regardless of main types of fat can end badly. There is good and bad fats, all fat is a mix of them. But foods with good fats have very small amounts of bad fats by comparison. But still bad and too much causes issues.
> 
> There is a lot of research showing keto diets for too long are bad for your health. Your body is meant to run on a balance. No one in history lived longer on a keto diet. If it was a great thing and not high risk for heart health the diet would be more widely used.
> 
> ...


The Escomo people are an example of keto lifestyle other than a slow metabolism they were one of the healthiest until recently adding carbs to their diet. I'm not anti carb. If you're at a healthy weight eating fruit is very healthy, or a weekly carb up day to keep metabolism optimal.

Also people are scared of saturated fats in foods. In natural setting these protect the unsaturated fat from oxidation (eating rancid good fat isn't good for you) the saturated fat in free range chicken and butter is good for you in small quantities.

There isn't a 100% diet for everyone. If you're healthy and have good blood tests you're probably doing just fine.

If my diet gets over 25% carbs my inflammation markers and lipids are not good.


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

_CJ said:


> You're stuck in the past man. All that "science" the medical establishment has been pushing for the past 50 years is a lie, based on one egomaniac's theory. Modern research clearly shows a high fat low carb diet to be almost universally good for humans. It's how we're supposed to eat. Turn the food pyramid upside down, and you've got a good starting point.
> 
> .


Somebody watched "The Magic Pill". I 100% agree with you and the film. High Fat/Low carb is natures prescribed diet for humans.

In the off season I'm Keto, during the race season I add a wee bit more carbs in the diet mostly before, during, and after races.

For reference I'm 155lbs 5.7%bodyfat verified by Dexa scan.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

irishpitbull said:


> Somebody watched "The Magic Pill". I 100% agree with you and the film. High Fat/Low carb is natures prescribed diet for humans.
> 
> In the off season I'm Keto, during the race season I add a wee bit more carbs in the diet mostly before, during, and after races.
> 
> For reference I'm 155lbs 5.7%bodyfat verified by Dexa scan.


Haven't seen the doc yet. Mid 2017 I tried vegan. I still avoided a lot of grain. After 6 months my blood works was worse and I was 10ls over weight, with less muscle. And before anyone says I didn't do it right...I've researched, and have been experimenting with diet and blood work for over 20 years. Was in the powerlifting and bodybuilding community and food is everything there.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

irishpitbull said:


> Somebody watched "The Magic Pill". I 100% agree with you and the film. High Fat/Low carb is natures prescribed diet for humans.
> 
> In the off season I'm Keto, during the race season I add a wee bit more carbs in the diet mostly before, during, and after races.
> 
> For reference I'm 155lbs 5.7%bodyfat verified by Dexa scan.


Yup. What I've noticed in my personal experience is that eating for health, and eating to be fast on a bike aren't the same thing. I spent years figuring out what to eat, and when, to make myself faster on a bike, and it worked. What it didn't do was make me healthy. Years after I quit racing, but still eating the same way, I've been chronically overweight, high blood pressure, elevated cholesterol, etc.....but still fast on the bike. I'm currently about 16 pounds lighter on keto, blood pressure is lower, feeling better in general, but WAY slower on the bike. I have no doubt that I could "sugar up", and lay down some faster times, but I don't know that I care. I'm not racing anymore, and I like being able to ride for hours without eating or bonking. It's like being super-human or something.

When I get down to a 30 pound weight loss, I'm going to put in some maximal efforts on known segments and see how my lighter weight keto fueled body compares to my heavier sugar fueled body.

.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Jut ran across a recent Zach Bitter interview on JRE podcast. Good news is that this one is a shorter podcast (for JRE).






There's some good info in the bulk of the conversation. Zach does talk in detail about his relationship with Ketosis and higher training loads with regards to his nutrition. But the podcast does starts to wander towards the end.

Later,
CJB


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## RadBartTaylor (Dec 1, 2004)

I don't have a horse in this race....but have experimented over the years with various diets. I've read Weston Price stuff, years before it was popular. Dabbled in Atkins way back in the day. Tried the Paleo thing, whole 30, etc, etc.

I've come to the realization that that 'healthy' means different things to different folks. Health regarding performance is much different then health regarding longevity.

I read the Blue Zone book which is essentially aligns to the age old adage, everything in moderation including moderation.

Science can try an explain x, y or z, but proof is in the pudding, the longest lived people in general eat little meat, lots of veggies, moderate carbs and very little sugar.

https://www.bluezones.com/recipes/food-guidelines/

With that said, that may not be everybody's baseline for 'health'. Getting ripped may be, or lowering cholesterol, or being strong, or having explosive power on the 
bike...or maybe being able to ride for 5 hrs without bonking - each of which likely require a different diet strategy.


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## RadBartTaylor (Dec 1, 2004)

Cerberus75 said:


> The Escomo people are an example of keto lifestyle other than a slow metabolism they were one of the healthiest until recently adding carbs to their diet. I'm not anti carb. If you're at a healthy weight eating fruit is very healthy, or a weekly carb up day to keep metabolism optimal.
> 
> Also people are scared of saturated fats in foods. In natural setting these protect the unsaturated fat from oxidation (eating rancid good fat isn't good for you) the saturated fat in free range chicken and butter is good for you in small quantities.
> 
> ...


I was under the same impression also but I think there is some more recent research questioning the original studies....

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/neal-barnard-md/eskimo-myth_b_5268420.html


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## Coyote_Lover (Apr 16, 2017)

I started the keto diet because high blood sugar runs in my family and my was creeping up big time. Last A1C was 9.2. After a week on keto and first week on meds (Metformin) my sugar was in the 60's...too low. Dr took me off the meds immediately and my BG levels have been great ever since. I expect my next A1C to be in mid to low 5's at next round of bloodwork.

My macros are at 

105g fat
137g Protein
<20 net carbs

60% fat
35% protein
5 carbs

I have the ketostix too but got weird results so just splurged and got the precision Xtreme ketone blood test monitor and will check every week or so. It's pricey to test ketones daily.

I do need to figure out some good riding snacks. I eat a ton of eggs and egg whites, salmon, lettuce wrapped burgers, pork rinds, salads, spinach/kale and preteen shakes with unsweetened almond milk. So far so good. Jimmy Moore's book Keto Clerity got me started...highly recommend. Free on Amazon via audible download.

Any good mid ride snacks that are keto friendly?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

I also just just started back on Keto (again). Im in my second week currently and it seems to be going much slower this time. I think just now the "flu" has started to kick in. Although it is hard to tell since I work third shift and generally feel like that more often than not. lol

@coyote_lover, try nuts. Macadamia and Pecans specifically.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Coyote_Lover said:


> Any good mid ride snacks that are keto friendly?


If I take food along it's generally just summer sausage and cheese, but my wife has been making some keto chocolate chip cookie dough things lately that might work well.

I've also made keto breakfast biscuits that were very portable and tastey...basically an almond flour dough with breakfast sausage and cheese inside. https://howtothisandthat.com/keto-breakfast-biscuits/

.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

@coyote_lover- I've been on this plan for a bit over 5 mos now. Out of habit and uncertainty, I've always carried food with me. But I found that once I was fully fat-adapted (around 5 week mark), I really didn't NEED to consume anything on rides. It was all done just from a habitual pattern. I've not carried anything with me for the past month now. I can easily do 4-5 hrs rides with no food.

All that being said, these are some of the things that I did (or will) carry if needed.
-nuts: almonds, walnuts, pumpkin seeds combo
-a few Duke's shorty sausages
-Primal Kitchen Macadamia Nut Bar: This is prolly the closest thing to the carrying an old-school cliff bar type product. The macros are good and then ingredients are very clean
https://www.amazon.com/Primal-Kitch...&keywords=primal+nutrition+macadamia+bar&th=1
-Quest Nutrition Bar- same as above just not as clean of ingredients IMHO
-Lastly I've tried to carry MCT oil with me too. I think it can work as a fuel source, but I've not figured out a decent carrying method.

Hope this helps.
-CJB


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

CBaron said:


> @coyote_lover- I've been on this plan for a bit over 5 mos now. Out of habit and uncertainty, I've always carried food with me. But I found that once I was fully fat-adapted (around 5 week mark), I really didn't NEED to consume anything on rides. It was all done just from a habitual pattern. I've not carried anything with me for the past month now. I can easily do 4-5 hrs rides with no food.
> 
> All that being said, these are some of the things that I did (or will) carry if needed.
> -nuts: almonds, walnuts, pumpkin seeds combo
> ...


I mix liquid coconut oil (this is MCT oil just cheaper) and natural peanut butter so it's got some flavor and not so runny. I put it in a travel squeeze tube. I rarely feel the need to eat, I normally take some electrolytes tabs since I don't eat and am losing them.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Cerberus75 said:


> I rarely feel the need to eat, I normally take some electrolytes tabs since I don't eat and am losing them.


Thanks for the PB tip, I may try that sometime.

You hit on what I feel is the bigger need to work out and thats electrolytes and non-water liquids. I've been using this stuff for my bigger rides (something more than a commute or short playful stuff). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BM5D56V/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&th=1 Its an exogenous ketone salt and I bought it to help my wife and I during our 1st two weeks of transitioning. However, when I look at the electrolyte and mineral content it looks strong. Additionally, its very hight in sodium too. I'd prefer if it was cheeper, but in all reality I can get it to last me at least 2 months.

Any other suggestions for non-carb/sugar fueling?

Thanks
CJB


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

CBaron said:


> Thanks for the PB tip, I may try that sometime.
> 
> You hit on what I feel is the bigger need to work out and thats electrolytes and non-water liquids. I've been using this stuff for my bigger rides (something more than a commute or short playful stuff). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BM5D56V/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&th=1 Its an exogenous ketone salt and I bought it to help my wife and I during our 1st two weeks of transitioning. However, when I look at the electrolyte and mineral content it looks strong. Additionally, its very hight in sodium too. I'd prefer if it was cheeper, but in all reality I can get it to last me at least 2 months.
> 
> ...


Sadly needing suppliments like this are why ketone is so bad for long periods. Your body is not meant to operate without proper nutrition. Why one's like Eskimos have so much shorter life spans than those that simply eat a vegetable/fruit rich diet.

Not to mention that suppliment way overloads on some things and completely misses 2 that are very hard to come by. Potassium and Magnesium. Those others can and will cause damage in those amounts if taken like that for too long.

Feel bad for so many on this diet, they see the weight loss effects and keep going not realizing they are completely destroying their health once they get to healthy fat levels. But to each their own.

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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> Sadly needing suppliments like this are why ketone is so bad for long periods. Your body is not meant to operate without proper nutrition. Why one's like Eskimos have so much shorter life spans than those that simply eat a vegetable/fruit rich diet.
> 
> Not to mention that suppliment way overloads on some things and completely misses 2 that are very hard to come by. Potassium and Magnesium. Those others can and will cause damage in those amounts if taken like that for too long.
> 
> Feel bad for so many on this diet, they see the weight loss effects and keep going not realizing they are completely destroying their health once they get to healthy fat levels. But to each their own.


Sorry compadre, but I'm not here in this thread to debate the merits or dangers of this diet with anyone. I personally am doing it as a physiological experiment to "see what happens". I didn't have any carb-issues prior to this and I was already at my lowest weight in many years. Additionally, my Dr is a close personal friend and a fairly serious cyclist too. We've been doing regular blood work this entire time and everything checks out fine.

My participation in this thread is to share ideas, concepts and experiences with other like-minded HFLC athletes. As such, when I moved away from glucose based nutrition, I've never really found a targeted electrolyte drink to replace the one I was using prior (Scratch Labs). If you have a few suggestions, then I'm all-ears. If you want to bag on my nutritional experiment, please feel free to start a new post debating the merits and dangers of a Keto-athlete lifestyle.

Later,
CJB


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Nope not at all, kudos for experimenting to see how things work out. Your being closely monitored to keep track of everything and that's good. However most don't.

It's not you I'm referring to directly, many state they have been on the diet for long periods (and try to claim it's the best diet for the human body). Both the diet and the suppliments aren't what these others are making then out.

Like no one has mentioned on of the biggest things to each on the diet. Much of the Reason my blood tests and everything are far better than they should be. Hemp hearts. Healthy fats and probably the best source for Magnesium there is that's keto friendly.

My simple matter is some suppliments should send up automatic red flags, especially being a ketone diet suppliment lacking on the most important electrolytes the body needs.

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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

RAKC Ind said:


> Nope not at all, kudos for experimenting to see how things work out. Your being closely monitored to keep track of everything and that's good. However most don't.
> 
> It's not you I'm referring to directly, many state they have been on the diet for long periods (and try to claim it's the best diet for the human body). Both the diet and the suppliments aren't what these others are making then out.
> 
> ...


And I think we can all agree a large portion of the mineral deficiency is because of lack of water retention. Stay hydrated, make sure you have healthy salts (like Himalayan pink salt) and you wont have near as much issue with mineral deficiency.


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## Smokee300 (Jul 8, 2014)

Has anyone thrown coffee/butter/coconut(or MCT) oil into the Keto mix? Although it seems to be a growing fad. I've been feeling pretty good in the morning drinking this on a Keto diet. Both on rides and non ride days, I'll have this coffee mix and nothing else until lunch. I should mention that my rides are usually 10-15 miles max.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Smokee300 said:


> Has anyone thrown coffee/butter/coconut(or MCT) oil into the Keto mix? Although it seems to be a growing fad. I've been feeling pretty good in the morning drinking this on a Keto diet. Both on rides and non ride days, I'll have this coffee mix and nothing else until lunch. I should mention that my rides are usually 10-15 miles max.


I drink coffee/1 tbsp butter/heavy cream nearly every day this time, as well as the last time I did keto a few years ago. Some days Ill substitute coconut oil for the butter (basically MCT's)


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## Smokee300 (Jul 8, 2014)

R_Pierce said:


> I drink coffee/1 tbsp butter/heavy cream nearly every day this time, as well as the last time I did keto a few years ago. Some days Ill substitute coconut oil for the butter (basically MCT's)


Try both with a quick spin in the blender, as long as it stays hot, it's pretty good.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Smokee300 said:


> Try both with a quick spin in the blender, as long as it stays hot, it's pretty good.


Right on.

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## Coyote_Lover (Apr 16, 2017)

I love this coffee combination and sometimes I’ll throw a half scoop of vanilla protein powder in the blender too which is actually a great sweetener with very few carbs or sugar at all and a little protein boost and makes it taste like a mild latte… Bullet proof coffee is awesome


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## Smokee300 (Jul 8, 2014)

Coyote_Lover said:


> I love this coffee combination and sometimes I'll throw a half scoop of vanilla protein powder in the blender too which is actually a great sweetener with very few carbs or sugar at all and a little protein boost and makes it taste like a mild latte&#8230; Bullet proof coffee is awesome


I will have to check out the protein powder.

Agreed, it's very good. I was absolutely skeptical of the fad/hype, and I'm sure as hell not paying for the branded bullet proof stuff. But after a month or so, I absolutely feel and notice the benefits.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Smokee300 said:


> I will have to check out the protein powder.
> 
> Agreed, it's very good. I was absolutely skeptical of the fad/hype, and I'm sure as hell not paying for the branded bullet proof stuff. But after a month or so, I absolutely feel and notice the benefits.


I personally won't add the protein powder as I'm already over my protein goal for macros 95% of the time.

But I'm sure it's delicious!

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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

R_Pierce said:


> And I think we can all agree a large portion of the mineral deficiency is because of lack of water retention. Stay hydrated, make sure you have healthy salts (like Himalayan pink salt) and you wont have near as much issue with mineral deficiency.


Another good point. Even though, I don't carry around as much stored water weight as I did prior to Keto, I've also experienced MUCH less cramping since I've begun. Its gently perplexing, because I'd have guessed it would be the opposite. My theory is that it may be my higher supplementation of the himalayan salt I've been focusing on in helps to try and better retain hydration. Whatever the case, I've had no noticeable cramping issues since I started keto 5.5 months ago. Anecdotally, I have been eating MUCH more salads and such during this time too. YMMV

Later,
CJB


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

R_Pierce said:


> And I think we can all agree a large portion of the mineral deficiency is because of lack of water retention. Stay hydrated, make sure you have healthy salts (like Himalayan pink salt) and you wont have near as much issue with mineral deficiency.


Carbs help hide the fact that our veggies don't have the minerals they should since the soil is depleted. Carbs or electrolytes hold water, carbs will bloat the intestines minerals keep everything in balance.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

RAKC Ind said:


> Sadly needing suppliments like this are why ketone is so bad for long periods. Your body is not meant to operate without proper nutrition. Why one's like Eskimos have so much shorter life spans than those that simply eat a vegetable/fruit rich diet.
> 
> Not to mention that suppliment way overloads on some things and completely misses 2 that are very hard to come by. Potassium and Magnesium. Those others can and will cause damage in those amounts if taken like that for too long.
> 
> ...


Eskimos have a short life span since the introduction of western diet. The human body can do well on fat or carbs as fuel, depending on genetics and region. When you mix the 2 is when you develop serious problems.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Cerberus75 said:


> Eskimos have a short life span since the introduction of western diet. The human body can do well on fat or carbs as fuel, depending on genetics and region. When you mix the 2 is when you develop serious problems.


Might do you some good to do some research. Really dig into it. You'll find a heavy meat/fat based diet isn't what you have been led to believe. Where you got your information is actually quite false as you will learn if you take the time.

You say I'm stuck in the old ways of how prograganda was pushed. Yet I'm actually not because I agree high carbs are bad. But now your thinking Ketone applies to everyone yet those cultures who's people easily push 100yrs old, none of them have a and overly high fat diet. It's highly plant based, proper Low carbs and limited amounts of meat.

Some good reading is dig into "blue zone"

Keto diet is everywhere, it's the new fad but it melts fat quickly. But at what costs??? Because people are going to be doing it wrong.

It works for SOME. If your genetics are that way. But high carbs, red meat possibly (more so your standard farm raised garbage) and processed foods are the problem which includes tons of sugars and processed vegetable oils

Monitor your health and figure out what works, look at your genetics and see what you come from. Keep carbs low and natural, stick to plant based and healthier fats.

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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

RAKC Ind said:


> Might do you some good to do some research. Really dig into it. You'll find a heavy meat/fat based diet isn't what you have been led to believe. Where you got your information is actually quite false as you will learn if you take the time.
> 
> You say I'm stuck in the old ways of how prograganda was pushed. Yet I'm actually not because I agree high carbs are bad. But now your buying into the new thing. One thing that is guaranteed to shorten your life because except for elite few cultures, meat and fat are some of the smallest parts of the diet. And those cultures who's people easily push 100yrs old, none of them have a high fat diet. It's highly plant based, proper carbs and little meat.
> 
> ...


IMHO there are 2 samples of diet that can promote longevity. I've experimented with both often and since genetics has a lot to do with metabolism. Sample 1. Would be a diet like you suggested typical Asian diet or rice beans and vegetables. Little meat, ideally seafood.

Sample B. What most people call paleo these days. But the focus needs to be on lots of veggies and moderate fruit. Fats should come from mostly vegetable and some free roaming animals and seafood.

The modern keto diet is heavy on animal fat, which probably isn't free range so the fats are not optimal. You can get lean on bacon, hamburger,cheese and dairy cream. I'll agree with you that this is asking for health problems.

For me Sample 1. It's harder to maintain a healthy weight and my inflammation markers are higher with low LDL, higher triglycerides.
Sample 2 my LDL is very high for my total cholesterol, low triglycerides and inflammation is almost nile.

Modern keto eating tons of fatty meat, cream and cheese...way worse than sample 1.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Ok I see where your going now. Your looking at proper keto, not "modern" keto which is a big difference.

Problem with organic/free range meat....ITS UNGODLY EXPENSIVE. Which truly shouldn't be the case because the effort needed for each, natural is cheaper. But quantity over quality is the American way.

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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

RAKC Ind said:


> Ok I see where your going now. Your looking at proper keto, not "modern" keto which is a big difference.
> 
> Problem with organic/free range meat....ITS UNGODLY EXPENSIVE. Which truly shouldn't be the case because the effort needed for each, natural is cheaper. But quantity over quality is the American way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


If you shop at the grocery store its extremely expensive. Since this is a mountain bike fourm most people aren't stuck in a major city where grocery stores are the only option.

Going to farmers markets and looking online you can find great quality food. Organic is a giminc mostly. It cost a farmer a lot to be certified organic so most dont do it. But at the market you can talk to them and find out they dont use bad fertilizers and pesticides because they feed the same food to their families.

Same with grass fed beef, chicken and eggs. If you get it directly from the farmers, it's cheaper than regular stuff at the grocery store.

If time doesn't allow you or you are stuck too far away. Stick with chicken breast and free range eggs. Use avocado and coconut oils and eat raw nuts and seeds. They can be bought off Amazon cheaper than the stores.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Actually farmers market is great but seasonal. That's where a big majority of our produce during warm months comes from and ya it's cheap.

Meat wise it's not so easy, have to have the coin to buy an entire animal. At that point you save A TON of money overall but the cost for the animal and processing is a large chunk all at once.

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## Smokee300 (Jul 8, 2014)

I see that some of you(like me) are using urine strips to determine your level of ketosis. I can't wrap my head around the $$ for frequent blood testing. And here's another rabbit hole you can go down using DUI breathalyzers for measuring ketones https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/t...out-a-ketonix-using-a-cheap-breathalyzer/9450
I have NOT done the breathalyzer YET, but im considering it.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Why are we seeing a dead chipmunk?

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## Smokee300 (Jul 8, 2014)

I see that some of you(like me) are using urine strips to determine your level of ketosis. I can't wrap my head around the $$ for frequent blood testing. And here's another rabbit hole you can go down using DUI breathalyzers for measuring ketones https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/verdict-on-the-breathalyzer-for-testing-ketones/22833 I have NOT done the breathalyzer YET, but im considering it.


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## Smokee300 (Jul 8, 2014)

RAKC Ind said:


> Why are we seeing a dead chipmunk?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Sorry about that, I was multi tasking.. should be fixed


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Lmao no worries, wasn't sure if he was dead or supposed to symbolize a drunk one

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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

RAKC Ind said:


> Actually farmers market is great but seasonal. That's where a big majority of our produce during warm months comes from and ya it's cheap.
> 
> Meat wise it's not so easy, have to have the coin to buy an entire animal. At that point you save A TON of money overall but the cost for the animal and processing is a large chunk all at once.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


We have a few farmers that process their own. I dont have the room for a whole cow lol. And local butchers are an option.

During hunting season I'll buy some tags, and hit up hunters via CL. Theirs always someone over their limit and would grab a deer and process it for a little bit of money.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Ya local butchers (meat markets) aren't cheap either. Pretty close to store bought free range/organic last I checked. I go there when we want nice cuts of meat for special occasions because you can taste a difference.

I would be hitting up hunters if more than just me would eat the meat. I love wild caught animal meat. My oldest would eat it but that's the end of it. 

At least our farmers market starts this week! 

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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Marginally related and in no way scientific but I've just completed a series of trials comparing fasted verses unfasted 20m FTP test. The test is on a trainer with most variables kept as close to the same as possible with the only difference being Fasted for 16 hours (which would likely mean ketos given my diet) verses about 10g of carbs from an energy chew after fasting for 16 hours.

I consistently produce 3-4.5% more watts with the carbs and the difference comes primarily in the last 5 to 8 minutes. Of course, your wattage may vary.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

GlazedHam said:


> Marginally related and in no way scientific but I've just completed a series of trials comparing fasted verses unfasted 20m FTP test. The test is on a trainer with most variables kept as close to the same as possible with the only difference being Fasted for 16 hours (which would likely mean ketos given my diet) verses about 10g of carbs from an energy chew after fasting for 16 hours.
> 
> I consistently produce 3-4.5% more watts with the carbs and the difference comes primarily in the last 5 to 8 minutes. Of course, your wattage may vary.


I IF most days. During the work week I hit the gym on my lunch brake and eat around 3pm typically 8oz chicken breast and an avacodo. Then after work ride weather permitting. Dinner is high enough calories to recover. I also supplement with EAA since I've drastically reduced my protien intake. I'm coming from a bodybuilding/ power lifting lifestyle. Used to eat 5 meals a day high protien. I'm able to maintain the muscle mass I want to keep. At 43 i dont want to be huge anymore.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

RAKC Ind said:


> Ya local butchers (meat markets) aren't cheap either. Pretty close to store bought free range/organic last I checked. I go there when we want nice cuts of meat for special occasions because you can taste a difference.
> 
> I would be hitting up hunters if more than just me would eat the meat. I love wild caught animal meat. My oldest would eat it but that's the end of it.
> 
> ...


Good veggies are more important. Chicken breast can get boring but its low in fat and the bird doesn't live as long as a cow (the longer an animal is fed improper the worse it is) beef shouldn't really be a staple anyway. It contains a sugar (which diabetics I know need insulin with beef) that may feed cancer.

So even on keto you shouldn't eat it all the time.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Cerberus75 said:


> Good veggies are more important. Chicken breast can get boring but its low in fat and the bird doesn't live as long as a cow (the longer an animal is fed improper the worse it is) beef shouldn't really be a staple anyway. It contains a sugar (which diabetics I know need insulin with beef) that may feed cancer.
> 
> So even on keto you shouldn't eat it all the time.


Unless you're allergic to chicken. Then you eat lots of beef and pork.

Do any of you guys follow Dr. Eric Berg or Thomas Delauer?? Pretty good info from those two!

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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

R_Pierce said:


> Unless you're allergic to chicken. Then you eat lots of beef and pork.
> 
> Do any of you guys follow Dr. Eric Berg or Thomas Delauer?? Pretty good info from those two!
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


Those names sound familiar. I'll check them out.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

GlazedHam said:


> Marginally related and in no way scientific but I've just completed a series of trials comparing fasted verses unfasted 20m FTP test. The test is on a trainer with most variables kept as close to the same as possible with the only difference being Fasted for 16 hours (which would likely mean ketos given my diet) verses about 10g of carbs from an energy chew after fasting for 16 hours.
> 
> I consistently produce 3-4.5% more watts with the carbs and the difference comes primarily in the last 5 to 8 minutes. Of course, your wattage may vary.


Thanks for sharing this. I'm approaching the 6 mo mark on my keto diet. Thus I'm going to start making some adjustments to my diet to see how it effects my cycling performance. I've been running mid-30's for net carbs per day. Soon, my plan will be bring up my carb intake gently to see how high I can go and still remain in Ketosis. I'm betting I can double my number with sweet potatoes and still remain where I'd like to be.

I'll keep posting back as I begin to experiment a bit.

Later,
CJB


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Some more follow up on my Keto experiment...

So I'm now almost 6 months into this. Here's my issue: I regularly have the "dead legs" feeling when I ride my bike. However, I *can* when needed put up some Strava PRs, but they are painful and I still sorta feel "flat" during the effort. But once I download my ride, I can see that I've performed fairly well. I do have a method for minimizing the dead leg feeling when a bigger more important ride comes up via my sweet potato loading. But for every day riding (commuting to work, fun rides with some friends, etc..) my legs feel dead.

I know I've read some similar feedback from others out there. How have you all dealt with it? Did you find a solution? Did it go away? I was hoping that as a *fully* adapted it would dissipate, but instead its become more annoying.

I like the eating style and I feel good on a daily schedule (outside of my riding). I've been having the best sleep of my adult life these 6 months and I'm also down to my lowest weight since college. I just don't feel as fresh on the bike.

Thoughts?

Thanks
CJB


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

CBaron said:


> Some more follow up on my Keto experiment...
> 
> So I'm now almost 6 months into this. Here's my issue: I regularly have the "dead legs" feeling when I ride my bike. However, I *can* when needed put up some Strava PRs, but they are painful and I still sorta feel "flat" during the effort. But once I download my ride, I can see that I've performed fairly well. I do have a method for minimizing the dead leg feeling when a bigger more important ride comes up via my sweet potato loading. But for every day riding (commuting to work, fun rides with some friends, etc..) my legs feel dead.
> 
> ...


I have the same feeling. I can ride all day long as long as it's not intense. When the climbs start or prolonged up and down type trails my legs tire quickly. Although with a minute or so rest I can continue right on without problem.

I don't think there is any way around it. The muscle fibers store carbohydrates. So they will use carbohydrates as a direct source of fuel (and this runs out quickly during high intensity exercise). So even though we are fully fat adapted, the ketones are still housed in the circulatory system, so it takes a little bit longer for them to be fed to the muscle fibers.

Your carb loading pre ride is likely the best way possible.

For me it's simply a compromise. Sucks not being "optimal" on the bike but I'll take that trade off for a better feeling day to day life.

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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

R_Pierce said:


> For me it's simply a compromise. Sucks not being "optimal" on the bike but I'll take that trade off for a better feeling day to day life.


I can't quite say that I'm at that point.

For me, Keto was/is just a physiological experiment. I didn't feel bad on glycogen based fuel source, I was already down to a nice low body weight, and I'd worked out a pretty solid cycling nutrition system.

I was out on a ride this morning thinking about this topic. Another way for me to put it is that, "I never really feel like I have fresh legs". And I mean NEVER. Even when I'm performing well and grabbing KOM's (2 this morning). However, my nutritional needs are perfectly fine. I'm completely bonk-proof and can ride up to 6hrs (so far) without any food intake. However, the only way I can begin to feel 'strong' legs-wise is if I intentionally prepare the day(s) prior.

I think for the next phase of my experiment, I'm going to start to add in low-glycemic carbs and see how high I can go and still remain in Ketosis. I'm ordering a blood keto level tester so that I can dial in more accurately and promptly over the pee-stix. Beyond that I may even push in & out of Keto to see what effects that has on my performance and freshness. To some extent I'm using some of Zach Bitters info to help me formulate some strategies.
https://zachbitter.com




 (specifically for my area of focus)

Later,
CJB


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

CBaron said:


> I can't quite say that I'm at that point.
> 
> For me, Keto was/is just a physiological experiment. I didn't feel bad on glycogen based fuel source, I was already down to a nice low body weight, and I'd worked out a pretty solid cycling nutrition system.
> 
> ...


Can I ask what your current macros are??

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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

I've been tracking my macros for 52 days now. I've been VERY consistent at about 70/20/10. My daily net carbs hover in the mid-30 grams. My guesstimate is that with the right kind of carbs, I could probably double my carb intake and remain in ketosis.

Later,
CJB


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

CBaron said:


> I've been tracking my macros for 52 days now. I've been VERY consistent at about 70/20/10. My daily net carbs hover in the mid-30 grams. My guesstimate is that with the right kind of carbs, I could probably double my carb intake and remain in ketosis.
> 
> Later,
> CJB


Yep. With as active as it sounds like you are (setting KOM's) I'm betting you could double or even more and stay in ketosis.

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## Geotrouvetout67 (May 2, 2013)

squashyo said:


> Chime in time. I was Keto for 1.5 years until this week. It was friggin' great up until about 3 months ago. I was fit as heck, blood pressure normalized, etc. Then I got blood work done this last quarter and LDLs were really high. Then I started getting headaches everyday (only at night for some reason), and my heart beat was crazy strong (i could feel the pounding of my pulse in my head and body. I tried to eliminate foods like chocolate and coffee but the headaches were relentless. I finally quit Keto last week. Bummed about it because carb living is hard...I'm always hungry...but the headaches did go away.
> 
> Not sure what to do but might give vegan a try.
> 
> Keto is amazing but I learned it wasn't for me. Wish it was...I got pretty ripped and fit.


I've had the heart pounding issue as well when I was eating paleo.
Now I'm doing keto and I've had less of it but still some on occasion. I think this has to do with balancing the macros, increasing carbs I think helps but I have to experiment more. I suspect it is due to a lack of potassium from carb food deficiency which should be supplemented.


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## Geotrouvetout67 (May 2, 2013)

R_Pierce said:


> I have the same feeling. I can ride all day long as long as it's not intense. When the climbs start or prolonged up and down type trails my legs tire quickly. Although with a minute or so rest I can continue right on without problem.
> 
> I don't think there is any way around it. The muscle fibers store carbohydrates. So they will use carbohydrates as a direct source of fuel (and this runs out quickly during high intensity exercise). So even though we are fully fat adapted, the ketones are still housed in the circulatory system, so it takes a little bit longer for them to be fed to the muscle fibers.
> 
> ...


Same here. Other guys who run on carbs beat me mid course.
I've been doing almost zero carbs. Next approach will be to train slower and fasted but before a harder and longer ride I'll have carbs. I'm going to experience with that for a few weeks and see how it goes. On a race day it may even require sucking on dextrose.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Geotrouvetout67 said:


> I've had the heart pounding issue as well when I was eating paleo.
> Now I'm doing keto and I've had less of it but still some on occasion. I think this has to do with balancing the macros, increasing carbs I think helps but I have to experiment more.


The palpatrations are normally electrolyte imbalance or to many stimulants.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

https://www.peakendurancesport.com/nutrition-for-endurance-athletes/athletes-yes-or-no-to-keto/


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## Geotrouvetout67 (May 2, 2013)

dave54 said:


> https://www.peakendurancesport.com/nutrition-for-endurance-athletes/athletes-yes-or-no-to-keto/


Very interesting article thanks for sharing. I've started their approach train low race hard and train on keto, fuel with carbs before races. Not that I race but I apply that to short easy rides vs longer harder rides I may do.

I did notice a drop in max performance without carbs, even on shorter rides but also I can ride longer on keto at lower intensity, even without food at all. I would get hungry, never bonk but rather slow down, like feeling sleepy, I can keep pedaling without fainting cramping but I can't do it very fast. A slow diesel going the distance vs a high octane going fast and short.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

I did just set PR's on a local segment. It's only a 2 mile single track but it's nearly constantly pedaling. I will say though on the second lap through trying to push I went flat about half way through.

So there is definitely a loss of explosive short term energy. But like said above I can ride longer as long as it's not at max effort.

I've transitioned to OMAD here for the past week (still 100% keto) and am liking it thus far!

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## AMac4108 (Oct 8, 2008)

I've been doing keto for the last year and a half. I just did the Mohican 100k last weekend and had 20g of carbs during the whole race. Half were from the Nuun electrolyte tablets.

I finished in just under 9 hours. 8 hours of actual ride time. Being my first race like this, my goal was just to finish. I'm at a low 2W/kg so I think the time fits a low carb or high carb diet.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

CBaron said:


> I was out on a ride this morning thinking about this topic. Another way for me to put it is that, "I never really feel like I have fresh legs". And I mean NEVER. Even when I'm performing well and grabbing KOM's (2 this morning). However, my nutritional needs are perfectly fine. I'm completely bonk-proof and can ride up to 6hrs (so far) without any food intake. However, the only way I can begin to feel 'strong' legs-wise is if I intentionally prepare the day(s) prior.
> 
> I think for the next phase of my experiment, I'm going to start to add in low-glycemic carbs and see how high I can go and still remain in Ketosis. I'm ordering a blood keto level tester so that I can dial in more accurately and promptly over the pee-stix. Beyond that I may even push in & out of Keto to see what effects that has on my performance and freshness. To some extent I'm using some of Zach Bitters info to help me formulate some strategies.
> https://zachbitter.com
> ...


So my experimentation has begun and I think I've already honed-in on some positive outcomes. Two times now on some of my mid-distance rides (mtn & road), I've taken a Hammergel towards the early part of my ride. Both times, I could tell, in the beginning, as I was picking up my pace and intensity that I was going to have to deal with the "dead leg" sensation again. But once I took the Hammergel, about 30 minutes later the "dead leg" sensation disappeared and I began to feel "fresher". I purposely waited to get another ride in until I came back here to post up. So now with 2 seemingly similar outcomes, I wanted to at least provide some feedback to the collective.

I chose Hammergel because their product has the lowest sugar content (2 grams). The first experiment was on the MTB and I had a 4 hr ride. I was also taking an exogenous BHB drink (which I regularly do) during my ride. The next morning my ketone blood readings were 3.0, which is very high. Last night, I did a 2hr 40 min road ride. I consumed the Hammergel earlier and performed some strong efforts toward the latter half of my ride. One hour after my ride my ketone reading was 0.5, and then after going to bed fasted I woke up with a reading of 1.1. (no exogenous BHB drink on this ride) Thus I seemed to remain in ketosis through the whole period even though I consumed 22 grams of carbs during the ride. I'm very pleased with the result.

I recently purchased a Super Starch sample packet and I'm going to try that out soon. I ran across it from Peter Attia's blog. It was recommended to him by non other than Jeff Volek https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low-Carbohydrate-Performance/dp/0983490716 Therefore, I have some high hopes for this stuff. But the Super Starch stuff is dang expensive.

Cheers,
CJB


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

CBaron said:


> So my experimentation has begun and I think I've already honed-in on some positive outcomes. Two times now on some of my mid-distance rides (mtn & road), I've taken a Hammergel towards the early part of my ride. Both times, I could tell, in the beginning, as I was picking up my pace and intensity that I was going to have to deal with the "dead leg" sensation again. But once I took the Hammergel, about 30 minutes later the "dead leg" sensation disappeared and I began to feel "fresher". I purposely waited to get another ride in until I came back here to post up. So now with 2 seemingly similar outcomes, I wanted to at least provide some feedback to the collective.
> 
> I chose Hammergel because their product has the lowest sugar content (2 grams). The first experiment was on the MTB and I had a 4 hr ride. I was also taking an exogenous BHB drink (which I regularly do) during my ride. The next morning my ketone blood readings were 3.0, which is very high. Last night, I did a 2hr 40 min road ride. I consumed the Hammergel earlier and performed some strong efforts toward the latter half of my ride. One hour after my ride my ketone reading was 0.5, and then after going to bed fasted I woke up with a reading of 1.1. (no exogenous BHB drink on this ride) Thus I seemed to remain in ketosis through the whole period even though I consumed 22 grams of carbs during the ride. I'm very pleased with the result.
> 
> ...


Right on! I didn't think you would have any issue eating 50 or even more carbs from "cleaner" sources with your ride days. Good to hear!!

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## Dropper (Mar 1, 2018)

Watched the magic pill on netflix...

Ive always seen this thread. Very interested.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dropper said:


> Watched the magic pill on netflix...
> 
> Ive always seen this thread. Very interested.


I need to watch that!

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## Dropper (Mar 1, 2018)

R_Pierce said:


> I need to watch that!
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


Its really interesting the whole grain industry and how we grow corn to feed to cows to eat. The corn fields being grown over and over destroy the land think dust bowl.

Where as grazing animals like cows and sheep that move around the land replenish the grass lands. So convert the corn and grain fields back to their natural state and put pastured animals on there and then eat them. A previous vegan on the program just really summed it all up well.

This is hard to ignore.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Dropper said:


> Where as grazing animals like cows and sheep that move around the land replenish the grass lands.


Sheep and cattle are like hoofed locusts, unlike deer and bison they generally don't move on until they've consumed everything. They most certainly do not replenish the grasslands, pretty much the opposite.


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## Dropper (Mar 1, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> Sheep and cattle are like hoofed locusts, unlike deer and bison they generally don't move on until they've consumed everything. They most certainly do not replenish the grasslands, pretty much the opposite.


Sorry should have clarified. In the documentary they move them. They mention that. I would prefer bison or deer or anything thats native to the landscape. but i think if you pen up cattle and dont give them enough grazing area yeah they are gonna just keep eating every last bit like you said. I see plenty of open pastured cattle and the soil is in tact no erosion issues.

And this is worth a read. The rancher mentions having to move them because in nature the predators often cause the migration. Very interesting.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ttle-grazing-the-solution-to-saving-our-soil/


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

Dropper said:


> Its really interesting the whole grain industry and how we grow corn to feed to cows to eat. The corn fields being grown over and over destroy the land think dust bowl.
> 
> Where as grazing animals like cows and sheep that move around the land replenish the grass lands. So convert the corn and grain fields back to their natural state and put pastured animals on there and then eat them. A previous vegan on the program just really summed it all up well.
> 
> This is hard to ignore.


So I'm all for grass-fed and agree growing food to feed food doesn't make a lot of sense. The challenge is the caloric density per acre is much lower with grasslands, yet the net carbon recapture is no better than a corn field.

What does that mean? A lot less grazing cattle per acre compared to feed + feedlot operations. And net-net carbon output is not much better (compared to reforestation). Meat consumption will need to go WAY WAY down to have this a meaningful solution.


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## Dropper (Mar 1, 2018)

smoothmoose said:


> So I'm all for grass-fed and agree growing food to feed food doesn't make a lot of sense. The challenge is the caloric density per acre is much lower with grasslands, yet the net carbon recapture is no better than a corn field.
> 
> What does that mean? A lot less grazing cattle per acre compared to feed + feedlot operations. And net-net carbon output is not much better (compared to reforestation). Meat consumption will need to go WAY WAY down to have this a meaningful solution.


Yeah the amount of meat is definitely a variable that is needed in the equation. And there are all sorts of "meat" beyond ruminant animals for sure.

So with that said is the current consumption rate far beyond what we "need" for a keto diet?

Are there more humans now on the planet than we can support on this type of diet? Is population control something we need to start taking more seriously?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

smoothmoose said:


> So I'm all for grass-fed and agree growing food to feed food doesn't make a lot of sense. The challenge is the caloric density per acre is much lower with grasslands, yet the net carbon recapture is no better than a corn field.
> 
> What does that mean? A lot less grazing cattle per acre compared to feed + feedlot operations. And net-net carbon output is not much better (compared to reforestation). Meat consumption will need to go WAY WAY down to have this a meaningful solution.


Also the meat is actually good for you when grass feed. And corn fed cattle are the #2 cause of green house gases so it's bad for the environment.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

Dropper said:


> Yeah the amount of meat is definitely a variable that is needed in the equation. And there are all sorts of "meat" beyond ruminant animals for sure.
> 
> So with that said is the current consumption rate far beyond what we "need" for a keto diet?
> 
> Are there more humans now on the planet than we can support on this type of diet? Is population control something we need to start taking more seriously?


Personally - I'm not tied to any diet - no horse in this race. I've experimented with many from classic bodybuilder (high protein, low fat), vegetarian, paleo, and now with higher fat (but not full on keto).

Specifically on grassfed meat, I've done the back of envelope calculation before - I don't remember what it was exactly, but we are already on the edge on what the earth can support if you assume that everyone is consuming in range 1-2lbs of meat per week.

I don't think the solution is population control just so us first world citizens can have our steak and eat it too.

Luckily today a good part of the world's population is either vegetarian or highly on planted based diet (with meat on occasion). But as developing countries with large populations get more affluent (think the 2.75Billion people in India and China) we are already starting to see titanic shifts in the amount of meat consumption and impact on global sustainability of meat production. Just look at how much of the Amazon has been cut down for corn, soy, and grasslands. We can't just say it's all good if we go grassfed organic.

Keto - as prescribed is hard to justify as a global sustainable diet - given the amount of meat and avoidance of protein rich plants because of their associated carb load as well. Not that it will ever happen, most of the world loves carbs too much.

Nor I am I saying vegetarian/vegan is end all and be all either...especially when applied with high grain consumption. That said - if we are really trying to look at data and read the writing on the wall (leaves). The most likely best solution to health, sustainability (and maybe even performance) is probably a largely plant based diet (with a little bit a meat).


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## Dropper (Mar 1, 2018)

Yeah thats the thing with the keto its low carb high fat not highprotein. So the fats come from plant based sources not strictly meat is what i have been reading.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Dropper said:


> Are there more humans now on the planet than we can support on this type of diet? Is population control something we need to start taking more seriously?


If by "this type of diet" you mean lots of beef then yes and yes.

We'll all be eating bugs eventually.


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## AMac4108 (Oct 8, 2008)

We'll be eating meat created in a laboratory here soon.

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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

Dropper said:


> Yeah thats the thing with the keto its low carb high fat not highprotein. So the fats come from plant based sources not strictly meat is what i have been reading.


Let's look at that statement objectively. The ranges vary but the typical keto macros is along the lines of 70% fat, 25% protein, 5% carbs. Now look at macros for good sources of plant based proteins - I'll ignore fat for now compare the protein to carb ratio (p:c). The suggested p:c is 5:1. So for the following protein rich plants...

Nuts ~ 1:1
Legumes ~ 1:2
Seeds ~ 2:1 (pretty high variance)

There are some outliers like hemp seeds that have high p:c ratio, but in general if you are "strict" keto, it's almost impossible to hit the target 5:1 p:c ratio using plants alone - you pretty much need to use plants sparingly. And if you include a good amount of healthy leafy greens with typical 1:2 ratio and you also blow through all you carb ration.

To put in in perspective, based on 2000 kcal daily diet that's 500 kcals for protein. That's about 600g (1.3 lbs) of meat or 4 cups of almonds to hit your 500 kcals (125g) of protein. Of course with almonds you also exceed your carb target which is a no-no in keto.

So for many people trying to hold strict keto, they resort to meat - especially the ribeyes and bacon which taste so good and help hit your fat targets as well too!

As I said before - I don't have side on this. I think fueling with fat is great and I enjoy a ribeye and bacon like any other.

It's just as prescribed specifically the 5:1 protein to carb ratio is unrealistic based on a plant based diet and in turn if adopted widely will lead to unsustainable be meat consumption and questionable long term health. Even if fast weight loss is the initial result (which it is for many people I've talked to) - not denying that at all.

If Keto means to you to get a good mix of plants and some meat, without worrying too much about what the carb impact is of the plants - I personally think that's the way to go.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

AMac4108 said:


> We'll be eating meat created in a laboratory here soon.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


I have mixed feeling about that. I'm tried Beyond Meat products and they taste about 70% there as a reasonable facsimile.

The issue is processing - are we over-processing perfectly fine and healthy plants just to make to look, smell, and taste like meat? Are there downsides to health and carbon footprint? Right now, I think most people agree traditional food processing has led to the current obesity epidemic.


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## AMac4108 (Oct 8, 2008)

smoothmoose said:


> I have mixed feeling about that. I'm tried Beyond Meat products and they taste about 70% there as a reasonable facsimile.
> 
> The issue is processing - are we over-processing perfectly fine and healthy plants just to make to look, smell, and taste like meat? Are there downsides to health and carbon footprint? Right now, I think most people agree traditional food processing has led to the current obesity epidemic.


Oh, I wasn't talking about plant based meat. Gross. I'm talking about harvesting cells from a live animal, without harming it, then growing those cells into larger chunks of meat. Right now it is incredibly expensive, but it is being done.

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## Dropper (Mar 1, 2018)

smoothmoose said:


> If Keto means to you to get a good mix of plants and some meat, without worrying too much about what the carb impact is of the plants - I personally think that's the way to go.


Yeah the macros is tough man. I used the carb manager app today. And because of a the gummy vitamins and probiotics i take, 1 cup of strawberries and some kale at lunch, almonds im out of carbs for the day actually 2grams over and i didnt exercise at all today.

But i didnt have any refined sugars, flour etc. only meat ive had today was a hamburger patty mixed with the kale for lunch.

Dinner tonight based on what ive done so far would have to be strictly fats probably all meat with no carbs. Im halfway to my fat for the day and about 1/2 on the protein.

We will see if i get into ketosis but im definitely not into eating a side of beef every night.

this was based on 2k caloric intake.

Its worth a try for me. I lost 40 lbs last year just on calorie restriction but have put 15 back on. Ive been slacking for sure.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm in ketosis with a great deal of greens. My meals are mostly free roaming chicken and eggs. Avacodos raw pumpkin seeds, raw almonds and coconut oil. So with veggies I may hit 50gr of carbs per day but it doesn't effect my ketosis.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Cerberus75 said:


> I'm in ketosis with a great deal of greens. My meals are mostly free roaming chicken and eggs. Avacodos raw pumpkin seeds, raw almonds and coconut oil. So with veggies I may hit 50gr of carbs per day but it doesn't effect my ketosis.


I only consume roughly 4-6 ounces of animal meat protein a day. So also not a large amount.

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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Hey guys, I quit participating in mtbr forums some time ago, but recently had some blood tests done after 9 months on the keto diet and thought it might be useful and/or interesting to some of you. 

My previous blood panels were done about a year and a half ago when I was on a standard American diet. I had also taken a three month break from drinking prior to the 2017 tests, but resumed drinking at a moderate level since then. With the keto deal, I stick to low-carb beers and whiskey for the most part.

My weight increased after the 2017 test, but I've lost about 20 pounds since starting keto.

2017 tests.........2018 tests
age......47............48
BP........136/82.....110/62
weight...223.........217
Chol......213.........245
Tri.........75...........57
HDL.......46...........50
LDL........152.........184

About what I expected, and from what I've read LDL is pretty much a worthless number these days. Apparently it's a calculation, not an actual measurement, and the formula breaks down "significantly" overestimating LDL when triglycerides are low. If the doctor wants to get uptight about it, I may have a calcium scan done to see where I'm really at with heart attack risk.

I track BP at home, and the 20 point drop is consistent, which I think is important, and I'm happy about that.

Other factors with the diet I didn't anticipate is a real calming effect. I've always been pretty high strung, and lacked focus, and that's all gone now. Inflammation is another. For the past several years, I had joint pain all over my body every morning, and that's all gone now.

Also, the keto effect on the bike is for real. I did a seven hour ride with 5500 feet of climbing last month, and didn't need to eat a thing. Never got hungry, never bonked, just had to stop and filter water a few times.

.


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## Dropper (Mar 1, 2018)

Interesting, well your Tri went down which is good and your HDL went up good, you lost a little weight curious would be body fat.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Dropper said:


> Interesting, well your Tri went down which is good and your HDL went up good, you lost a little weight curious would be body fat.


Currently, my scale is saying 18-20%. When I started keto it was 28-30%. I'm pretty comfortable at my current weight, but want to get down to about 15% eventually.


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## AMac4108 (Oct 8, 2008)

Nice results!

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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

_CJ said:


> Hey guys, I quit participating in mtbr forums some time ago, but recently had some blood tests done after 9 months on the keto diet and thought it might be useful and/or interesting to some of you.
> 
> My previous blood panels were done about a year and a half ago when I was on a standard American diet. I had also taken a three month break from drinking prior to the 2017 tests, but resumed drinking at a moderate level since then. With the keto deal, I stick to low-carb beers and whiskey for the most part.
> 
> ...


right on!!!

I think most peoples problem is that they dont give Keto enough time to work. They want to see those adapted results in two months, not give it 6 months for your body to become fully adapted and efficient at using fat as a fuel.

Nice to see these results!


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

Keto works great. I did it for a couple of months. The thing is, my wife is a great cook, and I felt very limited. I found out that portion control and following a good diet works well for me. I'm not on strict keto anymore but I try to keep carbs down still.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

AshevilleMTB said:


> Keto works great. I did it for a couple of months. The thing is, my wife is a great cook, and I felt very limited. I found out that portion control and following a good diet works well for me. I'm not on strict keto anymore but I try to keep carbs down still.


As I've continued to study and learn about the ketogenic lifestyle, "good diet" has become something entirely different than what we've been taught over the past fifty years. Youtube has been a great resource. I especially like Dr. Berg's videos on the subject. Short and concise, and he explains the science behind it without getting in too deep.

I've gotten into this lifestyle deep enough that I bought Slim Jim's and peanuts to hand out on Halloween. My wife and friends said our house was going to get egged, but the kids loved it! Word got out on the street, and kids were coming to our door asking for "beef jerky" instead of the poison (candy) my wife insisted we also hand out.

.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> I've gotten into this lifestyle deep enough that I bought Slim Jim's and peanuts to hand out on Halloween. My wife and friends said our house was going to get egged, but the kids loved it! Word got out on the street, and kids were coming to our door asking for "beef jerky" instead of the poison (candy) my wife insisted we also hand out.


I agree candy is mostly poison but slim jims? I guess you don't have to worry about your nitrate levels being too low


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> I agree candy is mostly poison but slim jims? I guess you don't have to worry about your nitrate levels being too low


The nitrate and nitrite thing is a myth. Eat all the processed meats you want.

The Nitrate and Nitrite Myth: No need to fear bacon, salami, or lunch meats |

"four servings of celery or beets all have more nitrite than 400 hot dogs"

And to quote another doctor I follow, "hotdogs and mustard may not be the best thing you can eat, but it's far better than Snickers and Cheetos".

.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> The nitrate and nitrite thing is a myth. Eat all the processed meats you want.


No thanks, I think I'll go with the general consensus on this one.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

_CJ said:


> The nitrate and nitrite thing is a myth. Eat all the processed meats you want.
> 
> The Nitrate and Nitrite Myth: No need to fear bacon, salami, or lunch meats |
> 
> ...


I'll give you Cheetos but Snickers is a food group in of itself.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

I've been fine tuning my diet over the last months. Have been subscribing to many keto podcasts, kept tracking my micro and macronutrients etc. Since my goal is to use raw whole foods (or as close as possible) it also had to be food that tastes in its raw form (or by just cooking with nothing else, like meat). I also want to get all my nutrients without supplements.

I made a spreadsheet (can't post here) where I entered all nutrients inc. potassium, calcium etc. since the goal was to lower carbs I calculate net carbs (carbs - fiber), potassium per net fiber, fat over protein (since too much protein ins't good and turns into carbs)









I first had a problem to get enough calcium, which was resolved by adding dairy products and then Chia seeds. Adding seeds really helped since all the animal products tend to be poor in potassium. i still have a hard time meeting all my potassium despite focussing on veggies high in potassium.

Without any fruit (obviously no grain products) I get to 50 netcarbs a day. I learned milk products give me quite some carbs. So long I ate greek yogurt with chia and flax seed. But it turns out if I use sour cream I get less protein and carb, so will try that.

Here my typical food:
breakfast: whole milk greek yogurt with chia and flax seeds (will swap yogurt for sour creme)
Morning snack: Avocado
Lunch: Salad (Kale, cauliflower, broccoli, nuts, sunflower seed, olive oil, olives, radish, zucchini, crumbled cheese)
Afternoon: can of oily fish (herring, Mackerel etc.) and/or some nuts
Evening: tomato, fried meat (in olive oil, salmon, burger, or whatever)

When I get hungry or get appetite I eat some more nuts. The above meat often gets replaced with boiled eggs, occasionally scrambled egg with bacon.

The first day is the hardest and I eat a lot, then the body uses more fat and it gets better. So I really want to do it for longer. Unfortunately my family eats carbs, people at work bring donuts etc. So I often fall back and binge. Need more discipline.

So far I'm too high in protein and gradually get more food with less protein and more fat. I'm still not at 70% fat intake.

I bought some coconut oil and hope to make something with it. Maybe with the cocoa powder. I also will try to put butter in my coffee instead of milk. Maybe I switch to black tea since that doesn't require creamer (I hate black coffee).

If nothing else I have a very diverse food intake. At least I should not have nay nutrient deficiency. And it is all tasty, which matters.


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> No thanks, I think I'll go with the general consensus on this one.


I second that.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

HerrKaLeun said:


> I've been fine tuning my diet over the last months. Have been subscribing to many keto podcasts, kept tracking my micro and macronutrients etc. Since my goal is to use raw whole foods (or as close as possible) it also had to be food that tastes in its raw form (or by just cooking with nothing else, like meat). I also want to get all my nutrients without supplements.
> 
> I made a spreadsheet (can't post here) where I entered all nutrients inc. potassium, calcium etc. since the goal was to lower carbs I calculate net carbs (carbs - fiber), potassium per net fiber, fat over protein (since too much protein ins't good and turns into carbs)
> 
> ...


I did all raw for a while sirloin and tuna raw with soy sauce. Or slightly seared are pretty good. Veggie and nuts are raw. I still suplement potassium and magnesium. Im pretty sure it's because of over farming the soils because I cramp up even if my diet should cover enough.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

Cerberus75 said:


> I did all raw for a while sirloin and tuna raw with soy sauce. Or slightly seared are pretty good. Veggie and nuts are raw. I still suplement potassium and magnesium. Im pretty sure it's because of over farming the soils because I cramp up even if my diet should cover enough.


Meat is what I process (cook/fry). One for taste. and second to prevent diseases. I once ate raw herring and was surprised that it doesn't' taste like the cold pickled herring I was used to (which appears to be cooked 
Soy seems highly processed, I just stay away from that.

The nuts I have are roasted, so are the sunflower seeds. At least the ones I found at reasonable prices (really hard to find unsalted nuts, or nuts without raisins and chocolate etc.). Not sure it hurts, but it may make me overeat.

Today I opened my coconut oil. Well, they should call it coconut wax based on feel and consistency (and taste). I first mixed it with cocoa and heated it up. This created some sort of dark weird tasting liquid. Yikes. then I used some to fry hamburgers in a pan. It was splashing a lot (like using fat that contains water). Taste was neutral, but it left a wax layer on the plate once it cooled down. I probably stay with olive oil.

Any ideas what useful things (without adding artificial crap) could be done with coconut oil? i had that vision i could use it to mix it with seeds or so to make bars of some sort. 
I think I stick with more of what I listed above. At least I can just eat that without applying magic.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

HerrKaLeun said:


> Meat is what I process (cook/fry). One for taste. and second to prevent diseases. I once ate raw herring and was surprised that it doesn't' taste like the cold pickled herring I was used to (which appears to be cooked
> Soy seems highly processed, I just stay away from that.
> 
> The nuts I have are roasted, so are the sunflower seeds. At least the ones I found at reasonable prices (really hard to find unsalted nuts, or nuts without raisins and chocolate etc.). Not sure it hurts, but it may make me overeat.
> ...


I use the liquid coconut oil. It has a higher MCT count and more versital.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

HerrKaLeun said:


> Meat is what I process (cook/fry). One for taste. and second to prevent diseases. I once ate raw herring and was surprised that it doesn't' taste like the cold pickled herring I was used to (which appears to be cooked
> Soy seems highly processed, I just stay away from that.
> 
> The nuts I have are roasted, so are the sunflower seeds. At least the ones I found at reasonable prices (really hard to find unsalted nuts, or nuts without raisins and chocolate etc.). Not sure it hurts, but it may make me overeat.
> ...


The "waxyness" is because it has high saturated fats. Despite the propaganda of recent years, saturated fats aren't bad for you, and coconut oil is especially not bad for you. As for salt, keto and/or low carb leave people deficient in sodium, especially people who exercise. Not only do you not need to avoid it, you should be adding it to your diet.

Soy vs. Coconut oil





Good fat vs bad fat (be sure to watch the very end)





.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

_CJ said:


> Hey guys, I quit participating in mtbr forums some time ago, but recently had some blood tests done after 9 months on the keto diet and thought it might be useful and/or interesting to some of you.
> 
> My previous blood panels were done about a year and a half ago when I was on a standard American diet. I had also taken a three month break from drinking prior to the 2017 tests, but resumed drinking at a moderate level since then. With the keto deal, I stick to low-carb beers and whiskey for the most part.
> 
> ...


Received a message from my doctor today, and it looks like they're not too worried about the LDL number.

"Your cholesterol results and other factors mean that you are at low risk of heart disease or stroke in the next ten years."


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

_CJ said:


> The "waxyness" is because it has high saturated fats. Despite the propaganda of recent years, saturated fats aren't bad for you, and coconut oil is especially not bad for you. As for salt, keto and/or low carb leave people deficient in sodium, especially people who exercise. Not only do you not need to avoid it, you should be adding it to your diet.
> 
> Soy vs. Coconut oil
> 
> ...


Thanks, great youtube channel by Dr. Berg. I first thought I want to try the liquid coconut oil, but it seems to have many of the good acids removed.

i experimented with some more food. I tried to make a coconut bars, but they were weird. I just stick with coconut flakes in sour cream or coconut oil.

I also tried heavy whipped cream. Tastes weird without sugar. I ended up suing it up as cream in coffee. I guess my stomach doesn't like it so much. will do more butter or coconut oil in coffee.

The more I eat unprocessed food the more I dislike processed food. For example I ate bacon from a local butcher (that bacon goes bad after some time). that is great. then I tried some bacon from the grocery store from a package, that is heavy in my stomach.


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## mopes (Mar 8, 2011)

Been thinking about making this switch for a long time. Glad I found this thread. 

Been fit and athletic my whole life but got my a1c checked when I was 35 and was one tick away from pre diabetic. Skinny, low body fat, was a real eye opener. 

I think there are far more of us out there who think we are healthy but have never actually looked at a1c, tracked blood glucose, etc.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

mopes said:


> Been thinking about making this switch for a long time. Glad I found this thread.
> 
> Been fit and athletic my whole life but got my a1c checked when I was 35 and was one tick away from pre diabetic. Skinny, low body fat, was a real eye opener.
> 
> I think there are far more of us out there who think we are healthy but have never actually looked at a1c, tracked blood glucose, etc.


I didn't mention it above, but my A1C and glucose test results came in later. Similar situation of A1C being a tenth away from pre-diabetic previously, now a full point below. Glucose dropped from borderline to ten points below.

.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

A question for those who use keto diet and do some intense trainings or rides.

As I understood, Low-Mid intensity long rides on keto diet is ok.

How about XC or CX, Up Hills? Where the intensity, speed is much higher? 
Not road or double track rides at pace speeds.

Just two weeks ago I started a very low carb diet, not sure if it's a proper keto diet as I don't count calories...
restricted almost totally carbs, added more fat. same amount of protein (daily meat, eggs...)

The reason was to flatten my energy, productivity and mood spikes during the day.
This was already achieved, I can jump now on my bike any time I have a 30-60 min window.
Was not possible 2 weeks ago, as i needed to eat something before any ride.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Oleg said:


> A question for those who use keto diet and do some intense trainings or rides.
> 
> As I understood, Low-Mid intensity long rides on keto diet is ok.
> 
> ...


You will suffer on high intensity/fast paced rides for quite some time. Everyone is different, but it can take 3-6 months before the body is fully efficient at using fats for fuel. At this time you will start to see your performance pick back up to where it was previously, or in some people even surpass their previous peaks.

This is my experience anyways, and from many I have followed and talked to.

If you want a real scientific approach, look up Dominic D'agostino. IMO, the most educated in the keto space.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Oleg said:


> A question for those who use keto diet and do some intense trainings or rides.
> 
> As I understood, Low-Mid intensity long rides on keto diet is ok.
> 
> ...


My ultra high intensity dropped off significantly after going keto. Took a long time before I was able to do the kind of high heart rate max efforts I did in the past, but I still don't have the incredible hulk moments I used to without getting "carbed up".

There isn't much info out there right now about using sugar as a high intensity booster during a workout/race. For sure fructose (sugar from fruit) is bad, as it has to be stored in the liver before it can be utilized later, and actually hurts performance in the short term. Glucose on the other hand can go directly to the muscles and be used as fuel immediately or stored in the muscle for later use without being processed by the liver (interfering with ketosis).

I've experimented a few times with eating glucose based energy bars while riding, and they definitely had a rocket-fuel impact. Short lived, but I didn't crash after burning it off, seemed like I went right back to burning fat. Need to study it more and experiment more though.

Something else I've only just started experimenting with is adding minerals to my water while riding. I kind of stumbled on it by accident, filling up my water bottles at local natural springs during a ride, and finding it really improved my energy levels.

.


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

My guess is the ability to do high intensity on Keto varies across individuals and even for a single person depending on other factors. I've been keto on and off for the last few years. I mostly just do keto when I'm training for 3+ hour races or big bike packing or otherwise Epic events. Part of my Primal-style endocrine system trading is to come into a 2 hour session having fasted for 15-18 hours and stay fasted for a few hours after the work out. ...sometimes 22 hours without food with a definite anaerobic workout at the end. Since DLS began that means something like this intervals on bike, box jump every 3 seconds for a mindnumbing 15 minutes, squats, deadlifts, etc.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Once adapted I can do sudden speed burst. And endurance is much improved. Hour long high intensity workout in the gym 3x a week as well. As mentioned make sure minerals are high since most veggies are grown in over farmed soil.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

But is it ok to be on ketosis and load some carbs periodically before or during the ride day?

I'm asking because I think I dont' understand fully the keto metabolism. I think like it's difficult, time consuming to become fat adaptive untill you body dosn't require carbs anymore, and one day if you eat some porridge for example, your body will switch back/loose ketosis state. 
Or, if I'm not yet into ketosis, but on a keto diet already and I'll eat porridge one morning, will this blow away all my efforts and I'll need one more month to reach that ketosis state? 

Another questions: should I till reach ketosis be more restrictive, use for example less 20gr carbs, and after I'm fat adapted, I can already add some vegetables for example which will increase carbs intake?


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## rickyvic (Mar 27, 2015)

I think there is an issue with pork fats and dairy, also gluten.
Pigs are animals that don't expel toxins so you eat them.
Milk can be bad for some people and most shouldn't be drinking it or eating fat cheese.
Gluten has been found to be the cause of a lot of inflammation and other issues, including self immune reactions.

Everyone is different and you need to find the diet that agrees with you.

Some blood types agree more with animal fats than others, in general group 0 is the most carnivorous, while group a is more vegetarian.

The key is to get rid of foods that we are not good at digesting and of course avoid getting all the carbs from cereals that increase glicemy. 

A bad diet causes issues like slipped discs, headache, nausea and lack of energy, bad sport performance.

Having said that I wouldn't buy a diet that is not tailor made for the patient. It won't work as expected.


Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Oleg said:


> But is it ok to be on ketosis and load some carbs periodically before or during the ride day?
> 
> I'm asking because I think I dont' understand fully the keto metabolism. I think like it's difficult, time consuming to become fat adaptive untill you body dosn't require carbs anymore, and one day if you eat some porridge for example, your body will switch back/loose ketosis state.
> Or, if I'm not yet into ketosis, but on a keto diet already and I'll eat porridge one morning, will this blow away all my efforts and I'll need one more month to reach that ketosis state?
> ...


I shoot for under 30gr carbs a day. After being on keto for a bit 30day. I find i can have a cheat meal once a week with about 100gr carbs(this will increasemetabolism). I can be in keto by mid next day if i workout or ride.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Oleg said:


> But is it ok to be on ketosis and load some carbs periodically before or during the ride day?
> 
> I'm asking because I think I dont' understand fully the keto metabolism. I think like it's difficult, time consuming to become fat adaptive untill you body dosn't require carbs anymore, and one day if you eat some porridge for example, your body will switch back/loose ketosis state.
> Or, if I'm not yet into ketosis, but on a keto diet already and I'll eat porridge one morning, will this blow away all my efforts and I'll need one more month to reach that ketosis state?
> ...


It's best to stay on the keto diet for a good period of time before you start trying to incorporate carbs again. At some point, you should be able to develop a "metabolic flexibility" which allows you to eat some carbs, burn them off, and then go right back to ketones without missing a beat. Kind of like living off some animals you've killed, then occasionally picking up an apple while out hunting for more animals.

As I said above, there's not much info out there about incorporating carbs to improve athletic performace while following a keto diet, so you just kind of need to experiment with what works for you.

Some people don't think carbs from vegetables should be counted at all, because of their high fiber content, and the nutrients they contain. I've been eating way more veg recently, and haven't noticed any negative impacts. While not truely "keto", I've been looking more at glycemic load charts and using them as a guide in an effort to control insulin response, because that seems to be at the core of a lot of health problems, and offers more dietary flexibility without keeping me from running on fat as my primary fuel source.

.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Thanks for sharing interesting thoughts and experience.

I wasn't on high carbs before, so this two weeks was ok with flu symptoms. 

I've done a ride last Friday, 3 hours, at least medium intensity as it was 4-5" of snow, icy, hilly and bellow freezing temperatures on my fatbike. 

This was first ride after two weeks with very very low carb (can't say it was a proper keto, as i don't know if the intake of fat was enough).

Pros: First time for a such long ride I didn't remember about food ( and i didn't eat for last 6-7 hours). 
After the ride fatigue was different than before. It wasn't such starving, hands shaking, bad mood...
I take Creatine for a wile, so pick power was ok.

Cons: can't say for sure if intense sectors was more difficult, because weather conditions was totally different from my last rides. 
I'll try later an upwill sprint 1.1km and will compare the time with "carbs" rides.

last weekend after that ride I've eat porridge, some popkorn.... I felt bad, hand shaking, headache...


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## AMac4108 (Oct 8, 2008)

Oleg said:


> Thanks for sharing interesting thoughts and experience.
> 
> I wasn't on high carbs before, so this two weeks was ok with flu symptoms.
> 
> ...


I'd suggest doing a little more reading on the ketogenic diet. Reddit, Gary Taubes' books, and Volek and Phinney are my favorite go to sources.

You are nutritionally in ketosis by now but you're body is not fat adapted. The true performance benefits won't show up for another 6+ weeks when your body adapts to using fat on a cellular level.

You also state that you don't know if your fat intake was enough. That really has nothing to do with ketosis. Deprive your body of carbs and you will enter ketosis no matter how much/little fat you've eaten. High fat is there to provide the calories and keep you satiated in place of the carbs you typically eat but it is not what makes you enter ketosis.

Keep up the work!

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

AMac4108 said:


> Deprive your body of carbs and you will enter ketosis no matter how much/little fat you've eaten. High fat is there to provide the calories and keep you satiated in place of the carbs you typically eat but it is not what makes you enter ketosis.


Unless you eat too much protein, which will then be converted to sugar and keep you out of ketosis.

.


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## AMac4108 (Oct 8, 2008)

_CJ said:


> Unless you eat too much protein, which will then be converted to sugar and keep you out of ketosis.
> 
> .


Yes, but you'd have to eat a pretty huge/impossible amount in a single sitting for this to become an issue. Gluconeogenesis is driven by the body demanding glucose, it's not driven by over supplying protein.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

_CJ said:


> It's best to stay on the keto diet for a good period of time before you start trying to incorporate carbs again. At some point, you should be able to develop a "metabolic flexibility" which allows you to eat some carbs, burn them off, and then go right back to ketones without missing a beat. Kind of like living off some animals you've killed, then occasionally picking up an apple while out hunting for more animals.
> 
> As I said above, there's not much info out there about incorporating carbs to improve athletic performace while following a keto diet, so you just kind of need to experiment with what works for you.
> 
> Some people don't think carbs from vegetables should be counted at all, because of their high fiber content, and the nutrients they contain. I've been eating way more veg recently, and haven't noticed any negative impacts. While not truely "keto", I've been looking more at glycemic load charts and using them as a guide in an effort to control insulin response, because that seems to be at the core of a lot of health problems, and offers more dietary flexibility without keeping me from running on fat as my primary fuel source.


I don't have any time at the moment to chime in with as much detail as I'd like, but I began the keto thing back in January and have experimented during the past year. A good bit of my personal finding have mirrored what _CJ has said in his last few posts.

I was super strict for 3-4 months, pretty strict for follow 2 months, took 3 weeks off, then came back with my version of a sustainable model for me. My day to day life I run nutritional ketosis with about 35 grams of net carbs. My macros are consistently around 70-20-10. But as I gear up for a race I up my carb intake, and sometimes even pop out of ketosis. But with my metabolic flexibility, I find that my body can still operate in the event as if I was still in ketosis. I can race 3-4 hrs and take in nothing, but still have the high-end needed. Sometimes I'll even ingest a Hammer Gel or so if I feel I needed. However, the next morning I'm back in measurable Ketosis. I occasionally do the same with higher intensity training rides to (I do a lot of road riding).

After my 6 month adaptation phase, I bought a blood ketone meter and have played around with how high I can get my carb intake and still stay in ketosis. Generally, its higher than I'd have estimated. If I'm riding regularly then I can consume things traditionally thought to be off-limits and still remain in ketosis. Example: I had 2 pieces of quiche the other morning and had no ill effects (blood ketone measure or feelings). About 1x per week I have a whole grain pancake at my local diner (along with eggs & bacon). I always bring in my own sugar free syrup though. This also has had no measurable side effects for me. Lately, I've developed a little bit of a uneccesary attraction to cool-whip that I need to ease back off on. But its been these little things that have made a long-term Keto lifestyle for me very plausible.

Later,
CJB


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

_CJ said:


> It's best to stay on the keto diet for a good period of time before you start trying to incorporate carbs again. At some point, you should be able to develop a "metabolic flexibility" which allows you to eat some carbs, burn them off, and then go right back to ketones without missing a beat. Kind of like living off some animals you've killed, then occasionally picking up an apple while out hunting for more animals.
> 
> As I said above, there's not much info out there about incorporating carbs to improve athletic performace while following a keto diet, so you just kind of need to experiment with what works for you.
> 
> ...


Look into Targeted Keto Diet.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

As I understand, if we do more or daily exercise/rides, than we can eat more carbs and be into ketosis, compared to someone who is not active. Or days/seasons when we ride compared to off the season or "no riding days".
Or there is no relation between on or off the bike days?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Oleg said:


> As I understand, if we do more or daily exercise/rides, than we can eat more carbs and be into ketosis, compared to someone who is not active. Or days/seasons when we ride compared to off the season or "no riding days".
> Or there is no relation between on or off the bike days?


An athlete can have more carbs. If you want to stay in ketosis they need to be less than you burn so you're burning fat by the end. I felt worse doing it though. The TKD is for performance and to keep metabolism up. I find i do better with a carb/cheat meal once a week.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Oleg said:


> As I understand, if we do more or daily exercise/rides, than we can eat more carbs and be into ketosis, compared to someone who is not active. Or days/seasons when we ride compared to off the season or "no riding days".
> Or there is no relation between on or off the bike days?


Yes, for sure.

For example, I can come into a 2.5 hr Tuesday night 'bandit' road race training ride and consume a Hammergel (23 gm carbs) before heading out. Then take another during the 'race' and find that I'm still in ketosis an hour after its over. Now this is a fairly high effort of exertion, but its still an example of how under certain conditions you can consume carbs/sugars and remain in ketosis.

Thanks
CJB


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

So I have 4 weeks trying keto diet. 
Overall I feel pretty well (btw I'm totally healthy, 38years, 182cm/80kg, so trying keto just as an experiment). 

Mistake I did:
when I started, I reduced calories intake by eliminating carbs, but didn't replaced them with something else, to keep calories amount at same level.

Riding:

15% 1km hill:
I can ride above 70%+ of my intensity only for up to ~30sec. and I'm out of puff  
Need to change the gear to a much easier one.
But can do it again at high intensity (again only for 20-30 sec) after a 2-3 min easy ride, or after a stop. 
Before that I could climb that hill for 8 minutes at my limits all the way long.

If I'm climbing at a low-medium intensity pace I can do it well. 

Riding on a flat at 30-40km/h, I think it was improved actually. I can go longer at such pace, but difficult to push faster.

Guess this happens, just because I'm not yet fully on ketosis and my body glycogen reserves are very low.

Overall:
I like how I feel, if I'm hungry I'm ok now, still calm, Productivity is at same level all the day long (I'm in IT, so using my brain and concentration).

Riding and fitness, actually after 4 weeks, I don't like how I perform. But guess it's just to early to make a conclusion about. 

I May 2019 I'll have a ~50km XC marathon, so will see how after a 6 months at that time of keto diet I will perform. 
Another test will be in June, 1100km touring ride.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Oleg said:


> So I have 4 weeks trying keto diet.
> Overall I feel pretty well (btw I'm totally healthy, 38years, 182cm/80kg, so trying keto just as an experiment).
> 
> Mistake I did:
> ...


A few things...

IMHO being only 4 weeks in, even though you may be becoming 'fat-adapted', these new metabolic pathways of processing calories are not really close to being optimized. I'M NO EXPERT IN BIOLOGY, but my guess (and research) is that you have to get out closer to 3 months to begin to see some efficiencies. Even then, I heard Dom D-Agostino say that at 9 months in you can be about 80% of previous performance.

I began in January and had a pretty significant race at end of March (Ouachita Challenge, 60 mi, 6k ft of climbing). I spent 2.5 months with aggressive carb reduction (less than 25 per day). However, in the lead up to the event, with me feeling little 'flat' in my legs, I began to experiment with low glycemic carbs(sweet potato w/butter & sour cream) the night before my harder rides. It was a pretty good success.

like you, I found through my experimentation that I really like the day-to-day lifestyle, but found the athlete/cycling aspect a bit more challenging. However over time now, my ability to fuel myself is pretty versatile. I have a flexibility that has allowed me some options on how I want to approach an event. My suspicions are that your marathon may need to be gently supplemented with some clean carbs. But that your June touring ride would be optimal for the keto riding nutritional plan. Your biggest challenge there may be finding and location enough quality food/calories along the way.

Keep us posted. I think this kind of insight into people's experimentation is good for the "collective" here.

Cheers,
CJB


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Everyone is different and I personally never followed a very high carb diet. But I dont buy into it taking close to a year to adapt. 

Things to consider:
Its hard to get a lot of B vitamins on this diet. So try supplementing. 
Make sure to get enough electrolytes and consider creatine supplements.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

CBaron said:


> I began to experiment with low glycemic carbs(sweet potato w/butter & sour cream) the night before my harder rides. It was a pretty good success.


I may be dating myself here, but when I was a kid our coaches always told our parents to serve a high carb meal the night before game day. aka carbo-loading. Seems they may have had this deal figured out way back when, before all the high carb low fat BS took hold.

.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Cerberus75 said:


> Everyone is different and I personally never followed a very high carb diet. But I dont buy into it taking close to a year to adapt.
> 
> Things to consider:
> Its hard to get a lot of B vitamins on this diet. So try supplementing.
> Make sure to get enough electrolytes and consider creatine supplements.


Yeah, I don't want to state that whats best for me is best for everyone. My goal is to share direct personal experience, especially inside the realm of cycling (performance). But I literally did a few months of research before I jumped in and Dom D'Agostino is considered one of the leading minds in the field. His comment about performance and adaptation was in regards to high-end competitive athletes being able to perform back up to pre-LFHC levels. He said something along the lines of quickly becoming fat-adapted to fully get by in daily life. However returning to full high-end performance had a slower adaptation curve. (worth noting that he was not specifically referencing cycling athletes)

Dom's Website in case anyone is interested.
https://www.ketonutrition.org/about/

If you want to kill a few hours, I found his interview on the Joe Rogan Podcast fascinating.







_CJ said:


> I may be dating myself here, but when I was a kid our coaches always told our parents to serve a high carb meal the night before game day. aka carbo-loading. Seems they may have had this deal figured out way back when, before all the high carb low fat BS took hold.
> .


As I've stated previously in this thread, one fo the things I struggled with was finding good info about Keto lifestyle as it related directly to CYCLIST. I could find info about ultra-runners, weight lifters, Navy SEALS, but not so much about the kind of riding I do (marathon MTB and Road Racing). However, I did run across some info about a road team in Europe who had about half of their squad on a LCHF diet. And they were adding in sweat potatos and fatty steak the night before races. They felt it was important to keep the fat content high in the meal so that your macros didn't get out of wack. So I load my sweet potato up with butter and sour cream. And not that it really matters in application, but I do find that the next morning before my ride/race, I'm still in ketosis. So I consider that a win/win. Still functioning on a metabolic level as a fat-burner....but having my clean carb stores completely topped off for the ride.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

So one week in Keto without cheating. Lowered my carbs to under 20g by cutting out my sourcream with chia seeds etc. (will add that back at some point for the nutritional value). I worked out more thna usually, but not a much. I also started to eat when I'm hungry, not by the clock

Here the results:

1. lost around 5 lb (I know much is water when glycogen is depleted). From 178# to 173# at 5'11". Maybe it is my imagination, but my belly seems to shrink. My target is 164#. 
2. The first few days I ate a lot. Then I was less hungry and stretched out foods and ended up doing the 16/8 intermittent fasting. it was more an accident since i didn't feel hungry. My first meal was at around 11am and the last before 7 pm. 
2. Even when I had fatbike rides in the morning i didn't eat before and didn't feel hungry. 
3. I was able to not eat any of the treats at work. I typically eat 3 since I'm a compulsive eater. I didn't eat on donut day, not on cookie day (apparently last week was national cookie day) and Pizza day. I didn't feel regrets and wasn't hungry walking by the treats (they tend to last for a few hours in our office)
4. This morning I did a 43km fatbike tour (same single track, some tarmac, 622 meters elevation gain). I didn't eat before and my last meal last night was before 7pm. When I came back at 1 pm I still didn't eat and wasn't hungry for another hour. I was stupid not taking any water with me due to 22°F freezing, so at the end of the tour I was a bit weak. i blame it on dehydration since I sweated a lot. Note this is a very long fatbike tour for me, most are much less, especially in winter. 
5. I did some dumbbell exercises this week. My method is to work up to 20 reps and then increase the weight. I was still able to increase the number of reps and jump over to the next weight on some exercises. So my muscle strength didn't suffer from Keto. Note I don't have many muscles to begin with. 

So far it goes well and i feel great and still strong (well, as strong as i can since I'm weak to begin with). Keto is only part of the improvement, it is the combination of the above lifestyle changes (working out, avoiding treats etc.)


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

HerrKaLeun said:


> SMaybe it is my imagination, but my belly seems to shrink. My target is 164#.


I was struggling for months to get rid of 3-4 kg more (from my belly), I was at a limit where it was required much more effort to loose next 1kg than last 3.

The only method that worked for me was keto diet, so definitely you'll see it shrink.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

CBaron, 
yes totally agree, XC race will require some slow carbs. It's pretty technical, where pick force will be used often.
Touring, I also think it will be ok.
Thanks for tip, I forgot that I need to plan my meals 

I'm not using now creatine, just to test the influence of carb restriction.

I've ride my usual forest trail today, it's a 15km long and ~500m elevation, with many small steep climbs (10-200m long and 10-30%). 

Interesting facts:

A 300m long hill, at 10%, same for 600m at 13%

In 5th gear (from biggest to smaller) I can ride only about 50m and I'm out, my legs are burning, my heart rate is at maximum.
On carb diet I could go up to top.

In 3rd gear, pacing my self, so actually it's sub threshold intensity, actually I feel better at top, compared to being on carbs.

Ok, this is pretty obvious.
One thing I can't understand, is why same hill, same gear, same conditions if earlier on carbs I was riding it at let say 80% of my maximum heart rate, now I'm riding it at my maximum HR. 

Also, (not yet totally sure, need to test more) it looks like, at a sub threshold intensity, same hill, same gear, same conditions, on keto HR is lower than on carbs.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Few interesting articles:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27430501

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10365988


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Another improvement I sow, was for fast technical Downhill rides.

There are few segments I ride, where you can go at 50-60km/h for ~300-500m long.
Terrain is inclined on one side, with traces from quadro-cyclists that rides there, and every time it's different due to whether conditions. So you can't go on what you are used to do from last time. 
Before I was always on brakes, as I couldn't keep control on everything at high speed, even crashed few times.

Now I'm going down at maximum speed I can get there (50-60km/h on a fatbike) with no brakes and I fell that everything is under control. I have time to understand and react quick. 

____________________

Another improvement

I'm periodically commute to work on my Cyclocross, ~30min one way.
I can now arrive at work and start to work!  instead of "Wait 10 min I just ride 30min, need a coffee brake... "
______________

As a summary, as a cyclist after 5 weeks, on very strict keto diet, carbs only from vegetables/salads:

- Intensities up to probably 70%, are improved. I'm feeling better after a medium intensity ride even if it's few hours long. 
- Even after a short very intense interval, my mind is clear, no foggy vision (ok, my muscles are burning and heart rate is at maximum). 
- Acuity and focus, reactions are improved, less errors during rides. 

The only think I don't like now: the Intensities above threshold (70%+).

As others say here it needs more time. In the video CBraon shared, D'Agostino say it needs 3 to 6 months. 
Why I started this before Christmas and New Year ?!!


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Yep you chose a challenging time to get started.  I waited until after the holidays to begin, and thus had the luxury to further research the topic for a few months.

If you are interested in trying to find some answers to your physiological questions as it relates to Keto vs Glucose base performance, then I'd highly recommend this book by Volek and Phinney. In that Dom D'Agostino video he references these guys a few times as leaders in this area of study. This book is geared towards the keto athlete and lists very specific scientific studies that have been done. Its interesting and compelling (even though my own 'case study of 1' has not lined up exactly with the studies). 
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low-Carbohydrate-Performance/dp/0983490716

Cheers,
CJB


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## mopes (Mar 8, 2011)

Anyone run bloodwork to look at their LDL-P before or after going keto? Gonna go in next month for some new labs but never pulled a baseline before the diet change...


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## BoraBoy (Jun 27, 2013)

I have had Crohn's for over 30 years and about 7 years ago, before all the ketoacidosis craze, I started a Specific Charbohidrate Diet. Carbs on the low starch (complex sugar) end of the spectrum. No Potatoes, grains, starch, sugar, soy etc. I had 2 months of losing weight and muscle mass. Then boom I started gaining muscle, clarity etc. It is hard to get enough calories on a ride but I eat constantly throughout the ride (rides up to 120KM with some rough climbs). Bananas, nuts, dates, honey and coconut oil,milk keep me fueled. I have way more energy and the biggest key is keeping hydration high no matter what I am doing as a low carb diet tends to dehydrate you. Once I picked up the hydration I work better ride better and feel in a better mood.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

CJB thanks for reading suggestions.

Also an interesting article I found:
How to Stay Keto-Adapted While Eating Carbs - Siim Land

Mopes, I'll do blood tests in about 3-4 months, as I'm doing keto only for 2 months.
It's out of the cycling season, think this also can affect the results.

Reading through the stories of different peoples, I found that while you don't have some serious disease, after a period of time (let say, till your body get used to burn fat) you can play with carbs intake amount, fasting/intermittent fasting, exercising at different intensity etc and you'll find what's your "profile" and how to behave regarding your diet for different situations.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

mopes said:


> Anyone run bloodwork to look at their LDL-P before or after going keto? Gonna go in next month for some new labs but never pulled a baseline before the diet change...


I didn't do an exact before and after. But I have records of blood work done in years past, versus the 2 sessions of blood work that I had done at month 2 & month 5 of Keto. My cholesterol levels increased slightly, but both ratios moved together so all was fine. And my numbers were well inside normal anyways. At the same time I had liver and kidney panels done too and all was good.

To be honest, I was a little concerned as to what the blood work would turn up. I could tell throughout my adaptation process that some noticeable changes were going on. But in the end, my 2 bloodworm panels didn't turn up anything really noticeable at all. YMMV

Cheers,
CJB


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Generally speaking, the people who are least affected, cholesterol wise, from keto are those who are losing weight while on keto. Weight loss will generally improve lipids. Saw a study not too long ago with a sample of 15 fit subjects and all of them experienced cholesterol increases because they didn't have much weight to lose. 

My personal experience is that my LDL doubled on keto but I was already lean.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Just to share some experiences after 11 weeks. 

It's difficult to cycle here now, it's 50cm of snow for last month, but doing some gym workout.

Can't say I have less power. 
Actually same weight and reps. 

Differences:
- Last reps, muscles are burning. In a strange way. It's not same like when it's too much lactose in your muscles. And it's gone in a minute. 
They are burning but you can still push. 
If before I could do for example 10 reps push-ups, and at 11 I'm blocked at half way, now I can do slightly more, but this "muscle burning feeling" is ow intense... 

- Fatigue and recovery
Fatigue filling is also different. 
You feel fatigue, but it's not like you can't move your legs or arms any more and you are looking for a bed. Actually I still have some energy for the rest of the day.
Recovery, looks like it's much easier and probably quicker. 

All this could be as a result not only of the keto diet, pretty strict, but also probably because I'm included creatine and after a workout day, at the dinner I add more carbs.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

The current "Leadville 100" Podcast (S2E4) has a great section on fat vs. carb burning. My reading from that is for endurance (not the very fast TdF sprint) fatburning works really well IF you got used to it properly. Like as in you could ride LT 100 twice just from body fat.

On another note i wanted to share a recipe I "invented". I used to eat chia seed, flax seed and coconut shreds (15g ea.) with sour cream (150g). Problem was the sour cream introduced 10g net carbs (the seeds have almost no net-carbs due to fiber). The sour cream was an improvement over whole greek yogurt regarding less carbs and protein.

I experimented with mixing the seeds with butter and other fats (inc. cocoa) and bake it into some sort of cupcake and sweeten with Stevia. All these didn't work out well. What I ended up with are crackers that can have butter added.

Here the recipe:
- mix 60g. chia seed, 60g Milled flax seed and 60 g shredded coconut (i also add ag of kelp for iodide)
- add 180ml of water and mix to a paste
- spread on baking paper on a baking sheet. That should be about 3mm thick. it takes some elbow grease to spread out evenly since one doesn't want to add too much water to reduce viscosity. Avoid too thick since that doesn't dry well
- scorch with a knife so it brakes apart easy later
- bake for 30' in 350°F (I use convection and leave it in for 5 more minutes after the oven turns off
- take out and let cool down, that should leave it dry. 
At this point you have crackers with all the good stuff in the ingredients and almost no carbs. and they are yummy!

I split the above batch in 4. The crackers in each portion get 1 spoon (14g) of grass=fed butter. I let the butter get soft (hard butter brakes the crackers) and smear it on the crackers (I sandwich them). Then i put them in the fridge since hard cold butter tastes better. one of those portions will be part of my lunch.

I'm sure there are industrial flax seed crackers. the problem is they add some sort of additives for shelf-life and easier processing and cost saving.

Obviously one can add or deduct ingredients to each one's taste


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Thanks, always was looking for good keto snack recipes, that I can take with me on long rides. 


Just to share how I accidentally with keto diet I got rid of migraine pain that I had for many years. 

Last Marathon XC race, I was done at ~20km, I stopped and after a 10-15 min brake I continued but at much lower intensity. 
It was hot, 85-90' 
At that time I thought I was bonked. And I was looking for a solution, how not to bonk so quick. 
My searches lead me to Keto-diet. 

I have now 13-14 weeks of keto.

Wanting to get rid of bonk, without planning lead me to finally get rid of intracranial tensions. Which terrorized me for last 15 years.

So another positive effect for a cyclist, is that getting rid of inflammatory will make place for your vessels to expand when they need.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

*Keto Brick*

Has anyone else tried the Ketobricks?

I've been listening to the Keto Savage podcast and that is how I learned about this product. It basically is a 150g "brick" with lot of fat, little protein and almost no netcarbs and 1,000 kcal. it also is shelf stable. The idea here is that if you are away from your controlled Keto food (like you could have at home), you have a snack / fuel. Like hunting trips, long rides etc.

The only downside is they are frequently sold out (promised to work on production improvements) and iIhad to buy what was available. they have single, 7-pack, 14-pack and 30 pack ordersizes available

I first bought a 7-day supply of the Mocha, which has coffee in it. It is a bit sweet, salty, but not too much.

Next I bought a 14-day supply of the Cookie&Cream, which is without coffee. (the 14-day was the only one available). From a taste point I like the Mocha better, but without caffeine it may be more flexible what time of the day I can eat it.

Not sure yet where I put those in my food plan. For sure I will use them for long bike trips, or some vacation food (where real Keto food may be difficult to get). I also keep some at work and in my car if I ever run out of food.

They don't have lot of minerals and no vitamins, so you wouldn't make them your only food. the way I see it it definitely is better eating a brick than raiding my family's chocolate and Nutella storage (they are not Keto... )

I'm typically against artificial food and also know many of the "Keto" factory foods are still high in carb and expensive. But this brick is much better. And when on the road likely is much better than the alternatives.

Just thought I let everyone know about those and wonder if anyone else used them and how you like them?


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Interesting reading based on real experiments:

Low-Carbohydrate-High-Fat Diet: Can it Help Exercise Performance?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5384055/

The effects of a ketogenic diet on exercise metabolism and physical performance in off-road cyclists.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24979615/


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

*Nuts and Seeds*

So I had used raw sunflower seeds and mixed roasted unsalted nuts in my daily salad. About an ounce of each.

I also wa snacking the nuts. since they are roasted they seem more tasty. To wean myself off snacking I decided to get raw nuts. While researching nut options I learned some of the nuts (cashews etc.) are relatively high in net carbs. Here just one example.

So I figured to focus on pecans and later possibly add brazil nuts. Maybe some walnuts for the omega 3 benefits. I also think I may skip the sunflower seeds. Am I excessive? Maybe.....

Curious what the best nut strategy is. Not only from a macro point, also from a point of getting micro-nutrients.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Travel food, and food while riding.......summer sausage, beef jerky, cheese, and nuts. Seems to do the job. Fast food joints will also serve you burgers without a bun, and they'll do in a pinch too.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

I came across this youtube video about our carbo society and how we got here.

Unrelated, I found a guilty pleasure snack that may not be healthy, but is simple and full Keto. I basically whip up heavy whipping cream (the 100% fat type) and put in some Stevia. I know, this isn't like eating vegetables, or meat.... but it beats me raiding my wife's nutella jar or other treats.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

HerrKaLeun said:


> I came across this youtube video about our carbo society and how we got here.
> 
> Unrelated, I found a guilty pleasure snack that may not be healthy, but is simple and full Keto. I basically whip up heavy whipping cream (the 100% fat type) and put in some Stevia. I know, this isn't like eating vegetables, or meat.... but it beats me raiding my wife's nutella jar or other treats.


Yep, as someone who has a recovering sweet tooth, I occasionally fall into the guilty pleasures pattern. In between Thanksgiving and Xmas I discovered that most cool-whip ends up good enough for my macros. I found some stuff at Whole Foods that I'd keep in the freezer and treated it almost like ice-cream. I was eating at least 1 tub per week. In the end though I swore off of it after new years in an effort to move away from my rekindled sweet tooth. Unfortunately, my wife's recently jumped on the Keto bandwagon and she likes to bake. Now I'm having to contend with keto brownies and apple pie. Ugh.

I've now been eating this (Keto) style for 1 yr 3 months and its simply just how things are now. Its a way of life, its not even a habit or whatever. I don't even think about other options much at all. I like it, it works for me and I don't find it difficult. I'm especially pleased that I finally worked out the 'cycling performance' side of my equation. That was far in away the most complicated thing to solve for.

Later,
CJB


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Looks like it require more water intake now during rides.

Last week I've ride 2 days 50km each on road, and 3rd day 70km. 

For about 3 hours I could keep with the road team I was riding with no food.
But I had problems with hydration.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Another interesting facts:
- was in a gym, legs day. Ride the bike 10km to the gym and after 5km on the bike and 5 walk to home (due to derailleur problem).

After a hard leg workout in the gym, I still could ride and walk. 
That was amassing for me as I remember how earlier I was walking home like a robot after a legs workout day. 
___________________________

Another observation, is the fact that it's easy to under eat/ low calories. 
I sow this days when I'm riding on road for 3-6 hours with somebody more trained (higher intensities for me). 

When eating High carbs, it's impossible to skip the fact that you didn't eat a meal, or you are hungry. 
With low carb, it's more difficult to estimate calories intakes.


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## mLeier (Oct 17, 2017)

I started keto 11 months ago and am in the best shape of my life right now. I've lost 50 lbs in that time (25% of my body weight!) and try to bike and/or cross country ski every single day. I find I feel way stronger and have way more energy when I eat as low carb as possible.

I've never counted macros, I basically just don't eat anything with sugar in it or any grains or starches. I don't limit high fibre veggies or fruits.

I have such a sweet tooth and find that I am actually able to eat way more desserts on keto than I ever have before! Russel Stover chocolates are amazing for a quick fix. 90 second chocolate mug cake, pumpkin pie... Mmmm!

Herr - Try adding some cream cheese and a splash of vanilla to that whipped cream! Cheesecake mousse! Then sprinkle some cinnamon and cocoa powder on top. That is my go to quick dessert. 

For trail snacks, we bought a dehydrator and make our own jerky. It's so good! We use pork which tends to have a higher fat content. Best part is there is no garbage in our jerky. 

I also dry peach slices. They aren't super low carb (about 1 carb per slice) but I find them to be a wonderful quick source of energy while on the trail and are certainly better than the licorice sticks that I used to rely on.

Lots of cheese and nuts in our snack bag too. I'll make a trail mix but then make it about a 50:50 mix of pecans:mixed nuts.

Long days I'll even pack a whole avocado.

Staying hydrated is probably what I am the worst at. I plan to make my own electrolyte drinks this summer either with just lemon/lime juice and pink salt, and/or Natural Calm magnesium drink. What do you all use for electrolytes?


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

mLeier said:


> I'll make a trail mix but then make it about a 50:50 mix of pecans:mixed nuts.


My wife has recently come onto the Keto wagon and she likes a little sweeter mix in our homemade trail mix. Thus we've added some dries coconut flakes and some Lily's chocolate cooking chips (which are awesome!). Outside of those things we add in a good bit of other nuts (pumpkin, walnut, pecan, almonds).

I've discovered the smokehouse almonds at the local grocer and have had to being limiting myself. I was eating HUNDREDS of calories a day with those things after a while!



mLeier said:


> Staying hydrated is probably what I am the worst at. I plan to make my own electrolyte drinks this summer either with just lemon/lime juice and pink salt, and/or Natural Calm magnesium drink. What do you all use for electrolytes?


I've experimented with various options here. Early on I was using a Keto BHB drink. It was tasty, had a TON of good electrolytes and salts in it. Obviously it also had ketone supplement(s) in it too. After a while I found that the Ketone supplements were getting in the way of me dialing in my carb ratios for my riding. (Its complicated) But suffice to say the company raised their prices on their product and I bounced.

From there I went to making my own with lemon/lime, salt, potassium and sometimes a little sugar-free sweetener. But I couldn't really get the consistency and flavor I wanted. Most recently, I've run across this option and have been using it for about 3-4 months. Its simple, cost effective and taste great. As a recovering gatorade drinker, it tastes very close to gatorade.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CX9U7WM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

I've ride for the first time 200km brevet.
I'm not used to road rides, actually only one time did 70km and one time 100km.

So 200km was a big jump for me. last 100km with 25-30km/h head wind.

From the energy point of view, it was ok. 

I took care of hydration and electrolytes.

I've had only one issue, due to the fact that the hungry is not such prominent, at the end caloric restriction make me feel the fatigue pretty well. 

the tracking app showed me -8000kcal, and I' eat only 50gr Almounds, 50gr Sunflower seeds, 50gr Peanuts and a coffee during the ride (not included the breakfast).

So pretty confident for next 300km, but will plan the meals. It's not a 50km ride anymore


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## trail-blazer (Mar 30, 2010)

I started keto last November and have stuck to it religiously and am really enjoying the lifestyle of it. I didn't do it to lose weight but more to change body composition and reduce any fat around the organs. I'm what you could call a skinny fat bloke. I'm pretty lean all over but did have a slight roll of fat around my waist. I never did eat a slot of sweet sugary foods and stayed away from processed food but did eat quite a lot of carbs - rice, pasta, etc. 

I felt a noticeable drop in my high intensity performance but my 60-70% effort was improved and I could ride much longer without wanting or having to fuel with food. 

I want to try recover some of my peak effort performance as i'm starting to not enjoy my riding due to the suffer fest when climbing. My legs just seem to give out on steep punchy climbs and my heartrate shoots up. I was shocked yesterday when I found myself 14min slower on 1.8 mile techy part of a train which consisted of a number short steep climbs. All the time was lost in the climbs because I had to drop to granny gear as I didn't have the power to grind up.

Also when I go ride in Dupont or Pisgah in WNC my climbing is suffering. I can no longer get to the pace I used to when I was on a carb diet.

I've experimented with having half an organic Cliff bar about 20min before the ride and then the other half of the bar about every 40mins into the ride which has helped a little but still not giving me the performance previously had. I would prefer not to be eating the Cliff bars and would like to explore something more natural.

for you guys that are "pre-carbing", what kind of carbs are you having and how soon before the ride. Are to taking any other carbs during the ride?

I've signed up for a few enduro races this year with the first being in one weeks time and in the last couple of weeks have noticed my peak performance really drop off which is worrying for the of liaison climbs between stages.

Hydration has been my biggest challenge and keeping electrolytes high. I do get cramps in my legs at night unless I make a conscious effort to really drink a lot of water with salt and lemon during the day which is not always easy. It's something I'm working on trying to resolve. 

I know it takes around 6-9 months for the body to adapt and become fully fat / keto adapted and metabolically flexible and be able to fully draw on more ketones for energy for high intensity activity. I'm just wondering the best way I can recover some of my performance without having to take in a bunch of high GI carbs which may knock me out of ketosis everytime time. Especially in time for the race I have coming up.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

trail-blazer said:


> I started keto last November and have stuck to it religiously and am really enjoying the lifestyle of it. I didn't do it to lose weight but more to change body composition and reduce any fat around the organs. I'm what you could call a skinny fat bloke. I'm pretty lean all over but did have a slight roll of fat around my waist. I never did eat a slot of sweet sugary foods and stayed away from processed food but did eat quite a lot of carbs - rice, pasta, etc.
> 
> I felt a noticeable drop in my high intensity performance but my 60-70% effort was improved and I could ride much longer without wanting or having to fuel with food.
> 
> ...


Long story short, it just takes time. Some more than others. Some a lot more than others depending on your previous state of health. The only thing I can think that might help move things along is some weight lifting and/or plyometric training. The salt thing is big. Add it to your coffee, add it to everything you eat. Drinking too much water can be a problem too, causing sodium deficiency.

.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Trail-blazer,

I'm also doing it since November. So pretty similar issues and my advises are from my experience only, could be different in your case.

Same issue with climbs, as I used to do steep Climb competitions and the trails I'm riding has many short steep climbs. 

So what I find:
1. Salts are very important now. Don't just drink pure water, on longer ride it's even worst. 
It flash your body salts faster this way.
On longer rides, I have one bottle with salted water or electrolytes (often DIY) and one pure.
I've increased Pink salt intake to about 5gr/day, this way I could get rid of muscle cramps/burns at higher intensities. 

Na, K, Mg, Ca just take care of them. 

2. Elevated HR, I find that it's because of low hydration, blood is more dense probably. Actually a day before the race and in the morning ... take care of hydration, increase it.

3. Creatine supplements, it helped me for:
- Pick power intensities.
- Hydration, creatine helps muscles to hold some water. 

4. Keep under control your protein (animal if possible) intake, I mean try not to go less than it's required. for fatigue and recovery.

5. Gym weightlifting workouts. 
of cause not before a race  it will deplete your glycogen. 
What I found, one week at almost max weight limits (I mean few reps with heavy weight) and one week at 60-75% of your max weight limits. 

6. I do often fasting road/city rides now. 
Fasting over the night, riding to the gym, 1,5h at the gym, another ride for 1-2 hours or so.
After the gym the body is out of glycogen, and riding like this helps to get used to ride out of glycogen. 
Coffee is very helpful here. 

7. Carbs loading. 
Actually I don't do it, if I have few days to the ride, I let the body to take care it self.
The Gym days, or higher intensities rides, first meal after I'm adding some carbs (but not sugars). 
Guess this is individually, how many carbs are ok for you.
I find that ~30gr it's totally fine, some days even 70, could be 100 on very active days... 
The days I'm doing 100+km rides, or 1-2 hours gym+50km rides I even don't count. 

How I know when it's too much carbs: the next day or after few hours I feel not very good (flu, or headache etc). 
Also it's better to split the carbs intakes and not just eat 100gr carbs at one meal. 

Just to summarize: 
Most helpful was:
1. the hydration and salts. 
2. enough Protein intakes, Creatine
3. additional heavy weight workouts and road cycling (on the road it's easier to train over the all range of intensities/Intervals)
4. increase carbs intake on some days.

PS
I didn't raced since Octomber, just a brevet 200km, which is not a race.
I will this weekend a short 30km but intense off road MTB race. So will update here how it was. As it definitely will be at and above threshold.


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## jeeper006 (May 8, 2009)

Interesting 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

btw

what I think about all this different nutrition lifestyles or diets. 
Unless you are not forced by your health issues, you don't need to religiously dogmatic follow them. 
Most important is to listen to your body. 
And experiment. 

Metabolic flexibility is a big thing! for sure.
To achieve this, we need to fit to strict keto diet. 
Guess something less restrictive like Paleo will work also, but will take longer. 

But after you are flexible, there is a tricky situation, if you'll follow a strict keto diet, will you be able to use carbs as fuel when it's needed or carbs enzymes, insulin response will drop so much that you'll totally lose you above threshold possibilities (as your body can't use anymore carbs as fuel, it will just store it as fat). 

Me personally starting keto just because I was upset that on my last XC race I was bonked at the middle of the race (actually it was due to hot whether (+35'C) + my high intracranial tension) I started to follow it.
By coincidence, it helped me to get rid of my intracranial tension (inflammations). 
After that I liked the nootropic effect. 
I liked many other factors that was improved. Probably most of them, not just because of keto diet, but because of the effects from the fact that I got rid of sugars and grains.

At a moment I realized there is no sense to keep it 100% dogmatic. I dont' have health issues. So I dont' need to go too deep into this, as the final reason is not to be 100% in keto, but to feel better. 

So not the keto is the solution, but the metabolic flexibility and get rid of sugars, high glycemic foods, be active etc. 

All of this can be achieved easier through a keto diet. 
Also 100% it helps to get rid easier and with less unpleasant experience from the unwanted body fat. 

Btw, I'm 39 years old, 183cm after a few years of marriage i couldn't go lower than 85kg. 
Now I'm 76kg. And I can easy get rid of 1kg per day if I want. 
Last time I lost almost 2kg in one day (after a 220km ride, including 100km on a 30+km/h headwind ). That's why 100km I did in 3.5hours and last 100km I did in 7 hours.
And they didn't came back even after a week  

The difference is now I can loose 1kg a day and I will feel ok after a such intensity, earlier to loose 1kg, and to ride 8+ hours I needed 5+ Snickers  and they came back to my belly.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

30km intense race

After a week of rains, forest trail was very very muddy. 

I didn't carb load. Don't take creatine for a month. Didn't eat anything during the race.
I thought it will be a 1.5hours race and muscle glycogen stores will be enough, but due to muddy slippery terrain it took almost 2.5hours.

First about 1.5 hours I was pretty ok, but after that started to have problems. 
I needed to push hard on my pedals, as my setup for lowest gear was 34 front and 36 back. 
I started to hit the wall, and if I was pushing further I was getting so bad leg cramps ....and palm/fingers due to the fact the I was pulling my self.

I'll have another XC Race in mid May, 50km.
I will carb load, I will eat some carbs during the race.
But will train with no carbs will than.
I did it last year (wasn't yet on keto), so it will be a good point for comparison.


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## trail-blazer (Mar 30, 2010)

_CJ said:


> Long story short, it just takes time. Some more than others. Some a lot more than others depending on your previous state of health. The only thing I can think that might help move things along is some weight lifting and/or plyometric training. The salt thing is big. Add it to your coffee, add it to everything you eat. Drinking too much water can be a problem too, causing sodium deficiency.
> 
> .


Yeah I pretty much gathered it will be a matter of time thing. My previous state of health was good, but I haven't been to a gym to do any resistance training for around 15years. I just find weight lifting insanely boring but I think it's something I'll have to look at taking up again and mix in some polymetric training. Something I used to do a lot of when I was doing martial arts in my younger years.


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## trail-blazer (Mar 30, 2010)

Oleg said:


> Trail-blazer,
> 
> I'm also doing it since November. So pretty similar issues and my advises are from my experience only, could be different in your case.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the comprehensive reply and your thoughts.

Hydration has been a factor I'm trying to work out. As my daily job has me out in the car visiting customer homes most of the day, it's difficult to continually keep drinking as I find myself having to relieve myself frequently and it becomes awkward when you're with a customer and all you can think of is how are going to hold your bladder from bursting lol.

I already take around 5-8g of salt a day in my water and drink between 2L - 3L per day so I'm not sure my cramps are a lack of salts or more an imbalance of electrolytes or something else like Vitamin B deficiency. I'm going to arrange for a blood test to check electrolyte, vitamin levels and other parameters to see if there is anything lacking on that side.

As mentioned above to CJ, I'm going to start some weight training, heavy weights low reps to build strength and raise my threshold. Will see how that helps with things.

As for being on Keto, I have found it quite liberating being free from the dependence of frequent eating like you are when eating mostly carbs. Last week I did a 15mile ride in the mountains, and although my peak performance suffered and i couldn't climb as quick as I used to, at the end of the ride I was not hungry and didn't feel like I needed to raid the cupboard for food. I started the day with planning on a 2 meal day so had a large breakfast, had my 3 hour ride mid morning and didn't feel the need to eat until dinner time. That would have been impossible before.

So as far as the Keto lifestyle goes, it works for both my wife and I. Most days we only eat two meals. Like you say though, after a big ride you do need to be sure that you're having enough calories to replace waht you burned.

I just need to figure out the performance thing at high intensity and I'll be really happy. I did a ride yesterday, it was only 11miles in Pisgah but after the rains we've had a lot of it was muddy and really drained the energy on the climbs. I had a little more carbs (60g) the night before as we were out with friends (still in Ketosis the next morning), started the ride with half energy bar and had the other half 40% into the ride during the climb and I felt much stronger. Didn't have that dead leg feeling with no energy. My heartrate was also lower. I was still in Ketosis after the ride. Mind you I still wasn't at the level of pre-Keto diet performance. I measured ketones by blood not urine strip. So this would suggest loading on a little more carbs the night before and maybe topping off before and during a big ride helps keep the peak performance higher. My goal however is to get away from having to rely on the carb preload especially as I begin riding more frequently now that the weather is improving.

So to summarize, my plan is to get a blood test to check electrolyte and vitamin levels and other important factors. Start heavy resistance training, to improve my threshold and work on a hydration solution.

I have my Enduro race next weekend so not much time for any changes to really take effect so I'll pre-load the carbs for that one but I'll have 5 weeks for the 2nd race which will give me a little more time to adjust and fine tune.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Trail-blazer,
Waiting for you feedback after your enduro race.
Did you measured maximum how much carbs you can eat at one meal and still be in ketosis? 

My 200km road was totally fine.
My Intense 30 km mud race was on the crappy side. 

_______

My question is:
- because for intense races, carbs are necessary, what should be a good strategy for taking carbs now? before, during and after the race? 

Before, should we just carb load one evening and in the morning? Or it should be done in smaller portions during a week for example?

During, should we eat an energy-sugary bar? same as before or .... 

After a race? ( I found I can eat even a big cake with a red bull, I dont' really feel it  )


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## trail-blazer (Mar 30, 2010)

Oleg said:


> Trail-blazer,
> Waiting for you feedback after your enduro race.
> Did you measured maximum how much carbs you can eat at one meal and still be in ketosis?
> 
> ...


I'll definitely report back on my race and experience.

I haven't really measured how many carbs I can take without it knocking me out of ketosis but I know after the big Easter lunch party at a friend last weekend where I had some wine, a tequila shot, a spoon of Mexican beans in cheese, and two 1"x1" pieces of very sweet lemon tart in my meal, I was still in ketosis (1.5) two hours later and my blood sugar was 95. How long after the meal should you check ketones?

I know when I consume an energy bar (half before and half during my rides) it doesn't have any affect on kicking me out of ketosis.

I would rather replace the energy bars with a better quality carb, maybe a sweet potato or something. I was thinking of maybe one sweet potato the night before, half a sweet potato with my breakfast and then take some for the ride.

I'm going to experiment with boiling (apparently if you bake it then you raise the GI significantly) the sweet potato, scooping out the flesh and mixing it with some cinnamon and melted cacao butter and crushed macadamia nuts then letting it solidify again for the on the bike snack. Not sure what it will taste like but I'll mess around with it to find something palatable.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Think it depends what kind of carbs have you eat, definitely pure sugar will be much quicker into the blood compared to a carrot. 

Regarding carbs intakes, I think it's not gonna be enough for an intense ride, longer than 1-1.5hours.

I mean we should be sure that Muscle glycogen is full (which is 500+ grams) and this will require more carbs intake for sure. 

During more intense rides like XC I'm usually out of juice after 1.5hours. 
I can move till the end with no problems, no bonks at all but less intense. 

The 11 May I have a XC ~50km race, it takes usually up to 3 hours.
So will do some experiments with carbs (not yet sure how  ). 

The 25th May I'll do a 400km brevet, so this will work just fine on ketones. 
Two weeks between them, I'll do the opposite, hard carbs restriction.


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## 3blackbikes (May 4, 2011)

Hi all, 

I've been researching Keto diets and found this thread, have been reading it from the beginning over the past few days. Thought I'd jump into the conversation as I do things different and was curious on your thoughts.

First, I'm female, 39, elite level endurance racer, I usually don't start feeling "good" in a race until about 3 hours in. So 100-milers, 12 and 24 hour races are my jam. I've always raced and trained probably eating too little, for various reasons (weather, nerves, not feeling hungry, etc), but only rare memorable occasions has this ended in a bad way. I just seem to not get hungry and get through big rides with very little.

A few years ago I did a laboratory metabolic/VO2 testing, and was very surprised to see that my body is actually super bad at metabolizing fat for fuel, based on my subjective experience as above. So, under supervision of my coach, over the past few seasons we have implemented a type of Keto-cycling technique to jump-start my body to get better at using fat for fuel at strategic times in my training. I don't do it consistently as I find it extremely hard (I'm also a vegetarian AND can't tolerate dairy which severely limits my allowable keto foods).

So a typical Keto cycle looks like this: 
April 26-28- Big team camp weekend, hard riding for 3 days. 
Mon 4/29- No CHO all day. Easy 2-hr mtb ride (recovery)
Tues 4/30- No CHO all day. Rest day.
Wed 5/1- No CHO all day. 1.5 hr low cadence interval drill work.
Thurs 5/2- No CHO in am. 1 ht tempo (below threshold) interval workout. Normal CHO intake after the workout (dinner).
Friday 5/3 through Friday 5/10- Eat like a normally do, which is probably 50-60% CHO.
Saturday 5/11: Big "A" race (12-hours of Mesa Verde), with goal of riding a million laps like I'm super woman with endless energy.

I did this last year with mixed results. Subjectively, I hated it. Probably because I got into the "Keto flu" stage and just suffered and bonked for the 4-5 days of the cycle. Being vegetarian also limits what I could eat, so I also was hangry and feeling starved. When I do eat carbs again, of course I immediately feel better, and into the following week with awesome energy. Race day comes, and I think I'll feel somehow different, like charged full of limitless energy. But my races are still 8, 12, and 24 hours long and nothing can get you out of feeling some measure of discomfort in those scenarios. I survive just fine, usually finish strong and on a podium step, so something is working, but the process ?? Not sure if the diet tweaking is part of my success or just that I'm really good at not stopping once someone tells me to "go" (like Forrest Gump playing football, lol). 

I'm just curious as most Keto dieters feel it is an "all or nothing, all the time" kind of approach to this diet to get the best results. I'm curious as I've not heard of other racers doing this tweak to the diet and most give me blank stares when I try to explain it.

Thoughts??


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## MJW75 (Jul 5, 2018)

3blackbikes said:


> Thoughts??


I did Keto last year and found I really didn't need to eat anything on a ride, saying that my rides are usually no more than 3 hours. I really liked the diet. I was faster, felt more healthy, more alert and lost weight (which I've half put back on since). I came off it in Feb as I found it difficult to eat enough to stop losing weight (I'd already passed my goal at this point). I want to go back on Keto but my wife isn't supportive.

I only got mild Keto flu, you get through it, just keep going with it. The diet is pretty much all or nothing though, you can't really have a day off at all. In the first week or two I felt really low on energy and had brain fog, even the cycle commute to work felt more difficult, but it passed.

From my personal viewpoint, I can imagine doing a Keto diet whilst also being vegetarian would be very difficult. I pretty much just ate meats to get my fats. As a vegetarian on Keto you are very limited. If you each fish - eat loads! Else you just have leafy veg, nuts, seeds, dairy...

The 'hangry' thing passes. When your body is fully adapted you will not feel the need to eat at all. After about 2 months I was fasting between 20:00 and 12:00 (16 hours) and never felt the need to eat. Many adapted Keto'ers will eat once a day.

I found logging everything in MyFitnessPal really helped, just make sure you use Strava etc to credit you back any calories earned. Do log thing though, many people say they don't need to log things then find out weeks later they had been eating something high in carbs. There are good Facebook groups you can join for support, plus I found http://ruled.me very good for info.

I'm not an expert by any means though.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Nice that we have here your experience as an elite rider.

I think that only 3-4 days of low carbs, definitely is not enough. 
At least when you just started to improve your fat burning metabolism.
I think if I'd do it like this, I'd have 3-4 days of keto flue, 7 normal days, 3-4 days of keto flue.....

It's better to start this diet off the season.
So you can have 2-3 months till you'll feel the adaptation. 

Another thought, regarding the fact that you feel good during long rides eating less.
Probably if you'll measure ketones level after the ride, you'll find that actually you are in ketosis.
I'm saying this because I remember earlier, during the races when I was bonked if I pushed further I started to feel good, and happy . Probably the body could be bad at burning fat, but if you'll push it above the limits, without other solutions, it will start to be good at.

As you have read through this forum, being in strict keto diet and wishing high intensity performances is impossible.

From what I've read here and other sources, I found that the advantages of doing keto diet for longer will help to:
- improve body adaptation to burn fat and carbs. So you can switch between them quickly with no flue.
- get rid of bonks during races
- increase the threshold when glycogen is used as fuel.

So for long rides like I do 200-400...km brevets (audacity, randonneur) at low pace to be in keto is great.
But if you want to do this rides fast, the Adaptation is the key. But to be adapted you need time, be in ketosis for few months.


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## 3blackbikes (May 4, 2011)

Oleg said:


> It's better to start this diet off the season.
> So you can have 2-3 months till you'll feel the adaptation. .


I wish, but the purpose of this type of keto-cycling, at least as far as my coach has explained it, is to optimize the metabolic effects immediately prior to a race, thus higher performance on race day when I've restored the glycogen reserves. Doesn't make sense in the off-season, unless I strived to be in ketosis all the time.



> As you have read through this forum, being in strict keto diet and wishing high intensity performances is impossible.
> .


I get that, and luckily in my specialty of racing, I am rarely in the red other than some short bursts over technical sections or passing someone, but then I settle back into that tempo zone.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

trail-blazer said:


> I haven't really measured how many carbs I can take without it knocking me out of ketosis but I know after the big Easter lunch party at a friend last weekend where I had some wine, a tequila shot, a spoon of Mexican beans in cheese, and two 1"x1" pieces of very sweet lemon tart in my meal, I was still in ketosis (1.5) two hours later and my blood sugar was 95. How long after the meal should you check ketones?
> 
> I know when I consume an energy bar (half before and half during my rides) it doesn't have any affect on kicking me out of ketosis.
> 
> ...


My experience resembles much of what you've said here. I've been doing the keto thing for almost 1.5 yrs now. Usually at about the 6 mo point, I hop off for a week or two, then get back on.

If I'm riding regularly then I've found I can tolerate a decent amount of carbs and remain in ketosis. This is both for normal meal consumption and also in/around training consumption. However, I still choose to keep carbs very minimal. Most of the "extra" carbs I add will be the night prior and possibly just before an intense cycling event.

I too use sweat potatoes as my go-to add-in carb. Please, PLEASE, post back up here the success you get in trying to create your own sweat potato riding food! I think it sounds awesome.



3blackbikes said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thoughts??


I too am no expert. But I did do a mountain of research and reading before (and since) starting the keto thing. I agree with what Oleg is saying in that I don't think you have given your body enough time to become "fat adapted" as a fuel source. My understanding is that once you strip out all the carbs, then you force your system to create new metabolic pathways for energy sources via the conversion of fat to ketone bodies. Early on in this process these (developing) pathways are simple not as efficient and effective and it takes upwards of 6-9 months to became fully fat adapted. I posted some links way above to Dom D'Agustino's discussion on the JRE podcast where he discusses this. My recollection is that it could take up to nearly a year to become 100% adapted and near the efficiency as you were while 100% glucose based.

My experience somewhat mirrors that of Dom's mentionings. Dom is a leading scientific researcher in the keto world. However, even though I found I could perform at a pretty high level of intensity (intervals, or 45 min crit race), I still had a noticeable "dead leg" feeling. I felt flat, even if I was able to push through it performance wise. In general, its something that has never really gone away. Through a good amount of experimentation, I learned that a well timed Hammergel (40 min prior) and sometimes 1 more during the effort (1-1.5hrs into event), completely alleviated my dead leg sensation. Made me *feel* much more fresh. However, my data numbers didn't really show an appropriate marked improvement when consuming the Hammergel. I'm sure there's something to be learned from that, but whatever that may be, I've found what works for me.

Last thing I'll mention, is that now that I seem to be fully fat adapted and pretty well optimized, I seem to be able to have a metabolic flexibility. Thus, when I was spending the 2 weeks out of ketosis a while back, in full glycogen mode, I would not have to bring food along for my rides and found that when I was back home post-ride, I was back into ketosis. It would seem that my body would simply run out of carbs, switch over to fat, and keep going (no bonk, no significant hunger pangs, etc). Its is worth noting that these rides were fun rides with a blend of intensity and distance. Usually 3-4 hr MTB rides with some punch hills.

In summary 3bb's, its my humble opinion that you have not been giving yourself enough long(ish)-term runway to get your new metabolic pathways up and running and optimized. By dabbling back and forth, I think your body is always assuming that the next carb-fix will be right around the corner.

Later,
CJB


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

trail-blazer said:


> I'll definitely report back on my race and experience.
> 
> I haven't really measured how many carbs I can take without it knocking me out of ketosis but I know after the big Easter lunch party at a friend last weekend where I had some wine, a tequila shot, a spoon of Mexican beans in cheese, and two 1"x1" pieces of very sweet lemon tart in my meal, I was still in ketosis (1.5) two hours later and my blood sugar was 95. How long after the meal should you check ketones?
> 
> ...





CBaron said:


> Yeah, I don't want to state that whats best for me is best for everyone. My goal is to share direct personal experience, especially inside the realm of cycling (performance). But I literally did a few months of research before I jumped in and Dom D'Agostino is considered one of the leading minds in the field. His comment about performance and adaptation was in regards to high-end competitive athletes being able to perform back up to pre-LFHC levels. He said something along the lines of quickly becoming fat-adapted to fully get by in daily life. However returning to full high-end performance had a slower adaptation curve. (worth noting that he was not specifically referencing cycling athletes)
> 
> Dom's Website in case anyone is interested.
> https://www.ketonutrition.org/about/
> ...


I'm quoting myself here just to bring these links and resources back into he conversation. In my research, these contain some of the best foundational places to begin educating oneself on the ketogenic life-style with a focus on performance. Like I said prior, the issue is trying to dial it in as it relates to "cycling performance". There's much less of that info circling around. And that is what I find so helpful with this particular thread here on MTBR.

Here's another resource: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmTH6Cz_j8eYq8oiOHDoTXg

Its Zach Bitters YT channel. Zach is an ultra-runner and holds a few world/US records in 12hr and 100 mile distances. There are some very good nuggets in here. But as I say, they are not necessarily cycling specific. However, 3bbs, you sound like your energy needs and output range may be more in line with what Zach does.

Cheers,
CJB


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

3blackbikes said:


> I wish, but the purpose of this type of keto-cycling, at least as far as my coach has explained it, is to optimize the metabolic effects immediately prior to a race, thus higher performance on race day when I've restored the glycogen reserves. Doesn't make sense in the off-season, unless I strived to be in ketosis all the time.


Actually not,
first step is to help your body to learn to metabolize fat better. 
For this you need time, few months. 
As I understood, there are some enzymes that your body need to increase they production and other physiological factors.

After this period of time, your body is ready to use both source. Even if you eat for few days carbs, it'll be enough those 3 days to get back to fat burning (but if you are exercising, it's even much faster). 
So after this adaptation period of time, you'll be more efficient to switch between sources when needed.

But this require time. 
I probably started to feel the effects (that I can go back and forth carbs/fat) after 2 months. Or that I'm ok next day if I've eat a high carb dinner.

An analogy: your are now a Petrol car, and you are trying to put into the tank some LPG or Nitros. but you don't yet have installed your LPG/Nitros fuel system.
First you need to install a second fuel system to the same engine. 
After that you'll have the possibility to switch between both of them when you'll need.

Very helpful are: very strict carbs intake for longer period, fasting, exercising when you are glycogen depleted (after a fast (at least 16h, after a heavy weight lifting etc).

So just to restrict carbs will take longer. To optimize and make it shorter I found this very effective: intermittent fasting for 16h, 1-2h gym weightlifting, and after that 2+ hours riding. No carbs after that.

Just take care of calories intake, hydration and salts/minerals.

Calories- same amount you need usually
Hydration and salts - need to increase them. 
And listen to your body.

I just jumped into long rides. 
I did 100km before keto diet last year, it was crap - 19km/h average speed and 7 hours.
This month I did a leap directly to 200km. ~30km/h and about 8 hours. 
No long rides/training (longer than ~30km) between them.

On higher intense rides, yes looks like I'm loosing some power after 1-1.5 hours, but I can move forward without bonks, headache and sweet bars.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

probably here I found a good advise,

If the goal is to move as further as possible till exhaustion- you need ketones, if your goal is to move as faster as you can in a limited time/distance you need glucose.

But again, you need time to get used to burn fat efficiently.

As I've read somewhere we are born fat adapted, as human breast milk is 5:7 Fat:Carbs
But we are loosing this adaptation when parents start to feed they children with processed food, HCLF at about 6 months.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

Oleg said:


> probably here I found a good advise,
> 
> If the goal is to move as further as possible till exhaustion- you need ketones, if your goal is to move as faster as you can in a limited time/distance you need glucose.
> 
> ...


Oleg,

That is a good video. I'm about 40 minute into it right now and wanted to come drop in the link where it begins to specifically discuss Keto and adaptation. It begins here around the 40:40 mark





I've followed the High Intensity Health website/blog/podcast a little bit. I've not seen any of his YouTube stuff.

If anyone else watches the video, please come back and discuss it.

Thanks
-CJB


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

As a summary from that video: "Smart carbs instead Low or High"
At least if you are doing something that requires performance and you don't have health issues.

I came to this conclusion my self through experimenting. 
Started keto diet to get rid of bonks.
Now I have 25 weeks doing this.

But instead of one it gave me many overall benefits.
- Food quality, and I'm not about carbs, mostly about that I'm not buying and consuming sugars and gluten. 
But increased good carbs sources likes veggies.
And of cause my eating style improved the quality of food that my kids are using now.
Yes, it's more expensive to buy good food.

- no more inflamations, intracranial tension, migrenes.
- I can loose body fat when I want

- I discovered long rides, brevets 200-400+km, earlier I never will go longer that 50.

- I can ride in hot weather now

- I made my body more adapted to burn fat and carbs, so for higher intensity rides guess I'll be ok too, at least I'm not gonna bonk anymore when out of glucoses.

- work productivity, I don't need a noon nap, or feel letargic after a meal.
- I sleep when I'm going to bed, and I'm awake when I'm out of the bed. At any time.
- After rides/races I'm not a zombie the next day 

So this is a long summary based on my experience. Of cause not everything is 100% excellent yet, but it's much more better than it was.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

To share my yesterday XCM race, a pretty intense one.

So I'm now 6 months of keto diet.

The week before the race, on Monday I've increased carbs intake, fruits, vegetables, fresh juice, more nuts, honey etc (no sugars or bread). 
The idea was to replenish my glycogen slowly.

Even last intense training (Tuesday) I felt already an improvement in my red zone.

Even more carbs day before and in the morning (bananas, porridge etc). 

From the start of the race that was A BIG IMPROVEMENT in terms of performance. 
I was in my red zone for about 1.30-45 min with no muscle burns. 

No food at all during the race, so actually at the end after around 1:45min I was struggling to get back to my upper limits. 
But I didn't feel bonked, or loosing concentrations. 

To summarize:
- for intense XC, CX races, the week before the race, slowly adding more carbs (100-150gr) definitely has a big impact on performance. 
- keto diet helped to get rid of bonks, keep moving even if it was slower when I was out of glycogen.
- after the race the sense of hunger was bigger, all the day. Not sure why, body was looking desperately to replenish carbs or just because I did ride more intense. 

SO, will keep keto diet all days, for training and for long rides (brevets, endurance)
- will add carbs the week of the intense XC, CX races, but will also take some food/carbs during the race.


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## trail-blazer (Mar 30, 2010)

OK, sorry for taking a while to report back. I got extremely busy.

I had my enduro race 3 weeks ago. From an energy perspective it went pretty well considering how I was struggling with my lack of peak / high intensity output in the weeks leading up to it. Just to recap, I've been doing keto for just over 5 months and have noticed a significant drop off in my peak performance on the bike. I just can't sustain a sprint or big climb without my legs feeling like they're dead and about to drop off with muscles burning. On the flip side I can ride all day and 60-70% effort without the need to eat and not feel hungry at the end of it.

So I decided to 'carb up' before the race to make sure I didn't feel like I've bonked when i had to sprint or on the big climbs. My strategy was not to just load up on a ton of carbs but have low glycemic carbs and only a relatively small amount so it wouldn't knock me out of ketosis. 

So I took a large sweet potato and microwaved it, scooped out the flesh and mashed it with some cinnamon and crushed pecan nuts. I then split it into two and rolled each piece into a large sausage. It had the consistency of putty and held together well. It tasted really good, a bit like sweet potato pie. I had one half in the evening before the race and the other in the morning 60mins before the start. I then had half a bar of an organic cliff bar and continued to each half a bar every 30mins.

This seemed to prevent me from getting the dead leg feeling when trying to apply maximum effort. So over the course of the race day, 2.5 hours of actual riding time, I had half a sweet potato and two organic cliff bars. I don't know if I could have gotten away with less carbs but I didn't want to chance it on during a race. At the end of the day I checked my ketones and glucose levels and I was still in fairly ketosis at 1.7 and sugars were around 87. As Oleg experienced after he had his carbs, that evening, I did feel I slight cravings reminiscent of how I used to be before the keto diet.

So this weekend I have my next race which is going to have much steeper and longer climbs but less pedally sprinting DH sections. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to do any riding for just over two weeks so am not feeling very well prepared. Tonight I'm going to start taking more carbs, around 50-60g, then again for tomorrow and Saturday morning I'll have around 50g-60g each day. I don't know if my strategy is the right way but since there is not much research out there it's all going to be trial and error.

I'm trying to load up gradually without completely knocking myself out of ketotsis. I've found I can tolerate 50g and still just be in a ketogenic state. Again I'll consume the energy bars during the race but might stretch it to half a bar every 40mins.

I want to get away from store bought energy snack and try stick to more whole food replacements so will continue to try develop the sweet potato snack by adding different flavor profiles and adding cacao butter. just need to figure out how to temper it so it's stable in warmer temperatures. I have a few other ideas for energy snacks which will be savory as I don't really like very sweet things when riding.

So to summarize, my strategy is to load with carbs but not enough to kick me out of ketosis. My guess so far is that this equates to 50-60g per day. Then during the race take a small amount of carbs (half energy bar) every 30-40mins depending on intensity. My thinking is that the carbs I'm taking during the race will all go to fueling the glycogen store and will burn off during the race so won't knock me out of ketosis. This was my experience with my last race (granted it's only a sample of one). Whether my thinking and strategy is correct or not I don't know - I'm just experimenting.

I did read somewhere, but cannot find the source now, that having the carbs as pure glucose is the best as it goes straight to the muscles and doesn't go fill the fat cells or something to that effect. I wish I had made a note of that as it suggested that taking pure glucose would be the most efficient way to replenish the glycogen when on keto.

I'll report back after the race although I fear with the lack of preparation, worrying about my glycogen stores is not going to be my only worry lol.


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## trail-blazer (Mar 30, 2010)

Oleg said:


> To share my yesterday XCM race, a pretty intense one.
> 
> So I'm now 6 months of keto diet.
> 
> ...


Oleg, do you measure your ketos and glucose? If so did you do measurements during your carb up days and after the race to see what your levels were?


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

No I didn't

Actually I went just by how I feel. Because the main goal was to perform better on that intense ride even if I was out of ketosis. 

During the last week before the ride, when I started to increase carbs intakes, but more than i usually can tolerate and still be in ketosis, because I was training also. 
I find that I need more (~100gr and more per day) to do easier on intense uphill, let say 1km 15% ride or max speed 5km ride. 

During that week I felt I was out of ketosis. 

Beside usual carbs, I used pure Grapes juice (home made, no sugar or water). So as you mentioned regarding Glucose (and grape juice has plenty of them) I find it most useful in terms of energy and carbs craving. yes it seems that it's goes more straight to be burned. 

After the race, so this week I did pure keto, a fasting ride etc and in 2-3 days was totally back to normal ketones/glucose level.

Next weekend I'm gonna do 400km brevet, so now I'm doing the opposite, strict keto. 

Actually it's interesting to be back for a period to carbs. 
Beside less muscle fatigue, I felt again those negative effects that I forgot already.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Haven't visited this topic in a while. Still on Keto. Not terribly concerned about weight anymore, but enjoying all the other benefits of eating this way so much that I don't see ever changing.

In my quest to get enough salt, I started adding salt to my lemon water. Pretty damn good! I normally don't care for straight salt water, but the lemon makes a big difference.

Been doing 16 hour fasts most days, and it's been easy, so I'm stepping up to the occasional 24 hour. Today I ended my 24 hour fast with a moderate ride, and now breaking my fast with a beer, haha. I read somewhere that glycogen will go straight to the muscles without being processed by the liver when you are depleted, so my theory is that the carbs in the beer will go straight to the muscles while the liver is busy with the alcohol. We'll see how it goes I guess. :lol:


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

_CJ said:


> Haven't visited this topic in a while. Still on Keto. Not terribly concerned about weight anymore, but enjoying all the other benefits of eating this way so much that I don't see ever changing.
> 
> In my quest to get enough salt, I started adding salt to my lemon water. Pretty damn good! I normally don't care for straight salt water, but the lemon makes a big difference.
> 
> Been doing 16 hour fasts most days, and it's been easy, so I'm stepping up to the occasional 24 hour. Today I ended my 24 hour fast with a moderate ride, and now breaking my fast with a beer, haha. I read somewhere that glycogen will go straight to the muscles without being processed by the liver when you are depleted, so my theory is that the carbs in the beer will go straight to the muscles while the liver is busy with the alcohol. We'll see how it goes I guess. :lol:


I'd say "I'm taking some Complex B vitamins supplements in a Beer form"


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

I did a 400km (420km total) with 4500m elevation, ride this Saturday.
Average speed was 22km/h.

For last 4 weeks, was trying to keep a pretty strict keto diet. (I'm doing this for 7 months already).

Definitely for long, endurance rides this is the way to go.

Was totally ok through entire ride from the energy point of view.
Last 100km I even was pushing more and I was able to sprint, so definitely I wasn't out of glycogen. 
Last sprint was at 415km mark, and i didn't felt any muscle burns. 

3 small meals during the ride ( 1 at about 100km) mostly because I don't like the feel of empty stomach.)


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## Sid Duffman (Oct 5, 2015)

Oleg said:


> I did a 400km (420km total) with 4500m elevation, ride this Saturday.
> Average speed was 22km/h.
> 
> For last 4 weeks, was trying to keep a pretty strict keto diet. (I'm doing this for 7 months already).
> ...


Nice work! What did you eat during the ride?


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Sid Duffman said:


> Nice work! What did you eat during the ride?


Actually I couldn't find nothing good to pick with me as I thought (only some seeds and nuts, which I didn't eat).

At about 75km mark I've bought at a Gas station a chocolate bar and this was a bad idea. it bloated me for few hours.

So first 130km was on nothing else, it was night, can't find to much options.
130km in the morning- I eat a liver fat sausage (250gr)
~220km - a meat soup with cream (one cup)
~300 - a meat roll with cheese. (250gr)

Coffee, tea, water and one liter of Orange juice at the last 100km.

felt very well after the fatty liver sausage, but best after the meat soup with cream.
Also Orange juice was welcome at the end.

As a conclusion:
- Do and rink some Lemon water during the ride
- Some Soup like food will be welcome to your stomach.
- very solid foods, like lean meat or nuts/seeds you can feel them for too long in your stomach like a stone.

Not yet sure if I'll do the next 600km brevet, but definitely a better meal planing will be helpful. And I'm not about snacks, but where to stop and eat a proper meal, even if it's 6 hours between them.

I've ride with a mate, he is much more experienced, but he is on carbs. 
Full pockets with sweet bars and snacks on the bike during the ride.

So another Pros for keto during the long ride:
The weather was: up to 30'C till the noon, after noon a heavy rain for two hours, after the rain it was hot and wet. 
So it was difficult to carry chocolate bars or bananas.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Just to share some observations.

It's summer, vacation, sunny days, my mum, wife and daughter's birthdays same month, so beer, wine, fresh fruits (we have lot of them here), cakes... so it's not the best keto-friendly period of time  

I'm not doing any measurements, but definitely there are many days that I'm out of ketosis. 

The interesting part is that even after few partys with carb, beer, cakes rich days/evenings, next day I'm totally ok to fast for 16-20 hours. 
Or I still can road ride 100km with no food.


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## Hambone70 (May 8, 2019)

Been following this thread with interest.

If weight loss is your objective, why not simply cut down on what you're already eating (carbs and all), and just exercise more? Wouldn't that result in weight loss without requiring such extreme and obsessive measures?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Hambone70 said:


> Been following this thread with interest.
> 
> If weight loss is your objective, why not simply cut down on what you're already eating (carbs and all), and just exercise more? Wouldn't that result in weight loss without requiring such extreme and obsessive measures?


No. Weight loss is more involved than just calories in vs. calories out. In fact, there have been some pretty solid arguments against counting calories at all. Hormones play a much bigger role.

And while my journey into a keto diet began with weight loss, the numerous other benefits have made it a lifestyle I plan to enjoy for years to come. There's nothing "extreme" it. This is how humans are supposed to eat.

.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

It's more easier, I'd say more less painful to loose weight on keto diet.

To loose weight, you restrict calories intake, in is less than out. 
But on normal diet, when you are hungry, sugar level is low etc you feel lethargic, energy level jumps etc. 
Actually it's very difficult to fast for 16-24 hours, but also doing normal day to day jobs, work or exercise. 

On keto, even if you are hungry, fasting for 20 hours your energy level is ok, you can perform well at work and exercise. 

Just from my experience, 
Earlier, to go in a gym or to ride my bike if I didnt' eat prior to that, it was a disaster.

On Keto, when my goal was to go quick lower than 80kg, I was fasting for at least 16hours, went to gym (weightlifting for 1-1.5 hours) and riding 35-50km on my bike. And all of this on empty stomach for 20h , drinking water, coffee, tea. And I was pretty ok, my wife couldn't say if I wasn't eat all day or not. 
Before, she new if I'm starting to be angry, I'm hungry  

So minus 3-4000kcal a day was easy achievable. On normal carb diet, I couldn't do this.


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## Hambone70 (May 8, 2019)

theMeat said:


> What are you eating now?


Bacon, eggs, and fried tomatoes! And it's steak and spinach tonight.

Been on keto for over a month now. All natural foods, no over-priced and over-hyped ready-made keto foods/supplements. Lost over 25 pounds and 5 inches off my waist. The 'brain fog' has cleared, the migraines have stopped, and I feel SO much more energetic. I can do my 2-hour morning ride on bulletproof coffee, and my speeds are faster than ever.

Ketosis-breath/taste is a bit funky, but my wife and I are getting used to it!

Edit: I do swear by Zipfizz to help get me through rides!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Have you guys tried supplementing with electrolytes while riding? I've been popping one of these capsules with every bottle of water. NutriBiotic Essential Electrolytes 100 caps.

Makes a huge difference. Like I could ride almost indefinitely without eating. I did a 5 hour ride yesterday with 3500 feet of climbing starting at 10,000 ft of elevation, and never got tired. Didn't have breakfast either, hadn't eaten since 7:00pm the night before. No soreness when done, had plenty of energy to walk the dog when I got home, No soreness today (day after), feel totally recovered and ready for another ride.

Rides like this would have been a killer before getting on keto. Would have been horribly spent at the end, and wrecked for days.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

I found some good books in the local library (some more on order). Many are just the typical Keto bla bla bla, but some provide very good scientific background:

"Keto Clarity" by Jimmy Moore
"Keto." by Maria and Craig Emmerich
"The Keto Bible" by Dr. Jacob wilson and Ryan Lowery

I'm also refining my nutrient spreadsheet with FDAc data. I calculated all the Potassium, Magnesium, Potassium, Phosphorus, Manganese, Calcium, Selenium and Iron.

My diet of beef, eggs, salmon and vegetables seems to provide me a lot of nutrients. but you need to eat a LOT of vegetables to get your Magnesium and Zinc. a LOT. the only supplement i take is Morton Lite salt (which is half Sodium and half Potassium).

I'm experimenting with some more recipes. Like I ate Avocados raw, but that gets old. So i try to fry/bake them with egg etc. I'll make some effort to buy some beef liver for some added nutrient diversity.

I always only made it for 7 days without cheating. Lol. but now I'm at 10 days and don't have a problem walking past the cookies people bring into work.


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## rockyfat2019 (Aug 4, 2019)

I've been biking and exercising on keto for a few months now, down 70lbs, bulletproof coffee with MCT oil is best for me, I'm a fan of keto/intermittent fasting.

Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

All my most enjoyable rides were done on ketosis. The mental clarity and Zen focus is absolutely amazing. The side benefit is the fat loss. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

These reports about increased / sustained energy and lifting of brain fog are what appeals to me about Keto. I don't need to lose any weight (6'1" ~175 lbs) and my blood panels are consistently great for my age (56). I already limit (not eliminate) carbs particularly bread and sugar from my diet and try to get as much protein as I can; just doing that makes a difference that I can feel.

I just picked up "Keto Clarity" by Jimmy Moore and "Keto." by Maria and Craig Emmerich and have started reading those.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

Hi,

dos anybody seen the some changes regarding Lactic threshold after starting keto? 

I'm asking because, last months, just based on my feelings, looks it's much higher.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Oleg said:


> Hi,
> 
> dos anybody seen the some changes regarding Lactic threshold after starting keto?
> 
> I'm asking because, last months, just based on my feelings, looks it's much higher.


I have a lot less lactic acid when on keto. Takes longer and not as severe.


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Oleg said:


> Hi,
> 
> dos anybody seen the some changes regarding Lactic threshold after starting keto?
> 
> I'm asking because, last months, just based on my feelings, looks it's much higher.


I don't measure LAT, but I measure something similar, MAF, Maximum Aerobic Function as Power at a specific heart rate. We tend to get better at the test activity and that is what I'm experiencing. I can say that, for me, at least it's not hurting.


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## mtbikerfan (May 14, 2018)

I started IF after my girlfriend suggested it. We do IF weekdays and have a cheat day weekends. We went gluten free, sugar free except fructose and cut back on alcohol to one weekend night. Beer gut almost gone. I probably ate too much coconut oil so every thing in moderation. We did Lilly's chocolate and coconut flakes early on also coconut flakes and coconut oil. Some cheat days we will have Ezekiel Bread and almond butter.


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## pnchopwr (Aug 6, 2015)

I started riding MTB 4 or 5 years ago, but got really fat and lazy the last couple of years, and haven’t ridden much. In December I decided to try out keto for a few months. Since then I’ve lost 96 pounds so far, and still have a little more to go. I bought a new bike in April and try to ride 3-4 times a week. The weight has been melting off. I don’t really see a problem with loss of top end power, as I really had no basis for comparison, but I do know that I can easily go for a 10 mile ride fasted pretty easy.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I used Keto to rebalance.
The results prompted lifestyle changes.
Then the Keto was modified to maintain balance.
Working for me, and after 8 months things are getting better in a sustainable way.
Not strictly a result of a diet, but behavior modification adjusting to better habits suitable to growing older. When factors in life change, age and physical output, other factors also have to be changed to maintain a healthy balance.
3 months of strict Keto kickstarted the process by dumping 40 lbs after struggling to lose 20 in the year prior. Incorporating better carbs in controlled proportion is bringing the strength and endurance back. I can’t imagine functioning with the 60 lbs I lost strapped to my waist 24-7.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

OzarkFathom said:


> I used Keto to rebalance.
> The results prompted lifestyle changes.
> Then the Keto was modified to maintain balance.


After 10 months of keto from which about 6 months strict keto, I also found that at least if you don't need it due to some health issues, a modified keto works better.

Being in strict keto had some drawbacks. 
But it served as a blank paper to test what carbs should I use and hot to manage them.

So after 6 months of strict keto started to do some test to keep keto positive effects but get rid of negative ones. Main advantage is that my body is fully adapted to both fuels now.
Still can ride 10 hours with almost no food. 
Still have to figure out why I lack Magnesium.


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## mroczek90 (Aug 24, 2019)

A ketogenic diet makes no sense if you play sports. Carbohydrates give a positive effect on strength and endurance during training.
There are no positive aspects of a ketogenic diet for strength and endurance results. This is a diet for people with various diseases.


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

mroczek90 said:


> A ketogenic diet makes no sense if you play sports. Carbohydrates give a positive effect on strength and endurance during training.
> There are no positive aspects of a ketogenic diet for strength and endurance results. This is a diet for people with various diseases.


Hmmmm...I'm not even exactly sure where to start with this.

Let me just say this, after 9 months worth of personal research and now getting close to 2 yrs in this eating style, much of what you state is pretty false. Well, except for insinuating that its good for people with various diseases. If you truly want to learn, educate yourself or have a worthwhile conversation, then go read this book and come back with some comments or retorts.

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-...15560291&sr=8-3&keywords=low+carb+books+volek
Please note that the book above is not just keto propaganda. Its written by some of the leading researchers and minds in the low carb athletic realm. They site research study after research study in order to reference their findings.

Cheers,
CJB


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

mroczek90 said:


> A ketogenic diet makes no sense if you play sports. Carbohydrates give a positive effect on strength and endurance during training.
> There are no positive aspects of a ketogenic diet for strength and endurance results. This is a diet for people with various diseases.


Almost all researches I've read, was done on people who are not adapted yet. 
They was just few weeks of keto diet.
Even if you can see some overall health improvements, performance will be lower at this stage. I mean for higher intensities.

To find out the performance benefits it's require many months of keto. 
And believe me once you'll have the commitment to do this for 6+months, you'll stick pretty much with it. 
Even if you do high intensity sports.

Almost 12 months on keto. 
I'm doing 100-600km rides, 24h rides but also higher intensity MTB XC, CX competitions.

I'd divide my journey in few parts:
1. keto flue
2. strict keto 2-3 months, overall benefits can be seen, no bloating, more focus, steady energy level and mood, lower inflammations.
But also lower peak performance at let say 50%+of your max power.
3. strict keto up to 6 months, performance increased, less lactate, quicker recovery.
Still luck of performance, but much higher, let say 60-65%+ 
Can ride just with water for 10 hours.
Can skip meals easily with no effects.
No more bonks during XC rides. After 1.5 hours, I just need to reduce my intensity.

Downsides:
Summer started, heat&sweat lead to often cramps.

4. 6+ months
Blood and other tests, point to the fact that I do lack some minerals (Mg, Na, K, Ca, P) and B vitamins.
Cholesterol was higher, but the good one.
Testosterone was higher.
Lack of fibers

Increased pink salt intakes, supplemented with Mg and others.
Vitamins B supplementation.

Also started to do some cycled carbs intakes. To increase some carbs on some days.
First meal (morning or if fasting after noon) usually are no carbs at all.
Carbs in the evening, but good ones. Vegetables, fruits, juice, honey, even some grains or pizza periodically, Milk and other diaries. 
If i'm not training for a week, I can be with no carbs all the week.

So starting the keto journey made me to review my entire diet.

And only almost one year I found the right spot, what works best for my lifestyle, from health and performance point of view.
The best benefit is the adaptation of the body to use fat and not rely only on carbs.
That's a HUGE relief!

There is big difference between A. day to day activities, B.training and C.competition.
A. almost don't need carbs
B. you can increase a little bit the intake with good carbs, just to fill up you glycogen stores between training. But you'll see a much more benefits if you train with no carbs.
C. fill up glycogen stores, can use carbs during the competition and after again for glycogen reserves and recovery.

Last long ride I did I was in a 6000kcal deficit at the end of the day. I've eat 3 normal meals.
My mate, beside the meals he ate 18 sweet bars.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

mroczek90 said:


> A ketogenic diet makes no sense if you play sports. Carbohydrates give a positive effect on strength and endurance during training.
> There are no positive aspects of a ketogenic diet for strength and endurance results. This is a diet for people with various diseases.


Perhaps start by checking out some of the science based research done by Dr. Dom D'Agostino.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

mroczek90 said:


> A ketogenic diet makes no sense if you play sports. Carbohydrates give a positive effect on strength and endurance during training.
> There are no positive aspects of a ketogenic diet for strength and endurance results. This is a diet for people with various diseases.


Yet, my Strava data shows I'm faster than I was on carbs (when I want to be), and my endurance is off the charts. No way I could have ridden 8-10 hours with no food prior to going keto....but don't let that stop you from trolling.


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## michael1 (Nov 17, 2011)

Surprised no one has mentioned Training for the New Alpinism / Uphill Athlete. 

We now know that to reach the highest levels of performance in long distance endurance requires training on a very low carb, high fat diet (see Zach Bitter).

For everyone else, carbs and vegetable fats will make you injury prone and give you a small boost in immediate performance, but dramatically cripple the rate at which you progress. You can chose to focus on this small bump you get on day 1, or you can decide to focus on the long term.

It's trivial to look at the cellular mechanism behind aerobic endurance and see how they improve much faster on a high fat diet. 

It's also trivial to see how carbs have anti-nutrient effects that kill you slowly. Plus, omega-6 from plant foods/fats combined with the carbs help kill you faster. A carnivore diet is ideal since it ensures proper fatty acid ratios. Carbs are only needed for huge training volumes in tiny amounts or races for world-class performers.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

I'm doing short Uphills trainings now. 
So it's 0.5km long Average 15% and Max 36% (Heart rate all the way up the trail is 170-190)
Doing 3 times a week.

So on a normal Keto, I was doing till now, two days between rides isn't enough to restore glycogen. 
So after a week of keto diet and no training, Monday intense uphill is ok, Wednesday is ok, Friday I barely can attack off the saddle. Totally depleted.


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

*no Keto for me*

To each his own, good luck with keto. I am on the DASH diet.its all about calories, quality calories.If I were wealthy I would have a fulltime nutritionist https://theoutline.com/post/6133/the-keto-diet-is-a-recipe-for-disaster?zd=1&zi=sncgpzr2


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

jupiter58 said:


> to each his own....now check out this anti-keto propaganda


The funny thing is, I've stopped saying I'm Keto. Probably best described as an "animal based diet" now, almost carnivore, but I still incorporate some veg, the occasional seasonal fruit, and usually a piece of bread when eating out once a week. I don't track macros or consciously add fat to anything, but it's still low carb / high fat just as a result of what I'm eating. My primary reasons for continuing with this "diet" really have little to do with weight loss anymore. It's just better for my overall health, physical and mental, than anything I've done before, which have included vegetarian, pescetarian, and vegan.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

double post


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

90% of online info is just for the sake of blogging and keywords. 
Even scientific materials I've read, most of them are based on short time experiments. 

Sure, everybody has their own lifestyle, but reading here the experience of real people who do keto for a long time (1+ years) nobody can't deny the positive effect on health.


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## Oleg (Jun 20, 2017)

CJ

I'm also not counting anymore the macros, just because it's already a lifestyle. 
After 1+ year of keto, I've learned to feel my body, and to add something if it's required.
Guess nobody can understand keto without doing it for 3- 6 months.
Also definitely you can see the benefits of you are doing endurance 200-600km, 24hours rides etc.
I don't say about day to day life, when you just don't need extra carbs.
Even if now I'm doing trainings at 80-100% of my max HR, being fat adapted is something very helpful for day to day life.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Oleg said:


> CJ
> 
> I'm also not counting anymore the macros, just because it's already a lifestyle.
> After 1+ year of keto, I've learned to feel my body, and to add something if it's required.
> ...


Yes, learning to listen to your body is very important. I've always like spinach, and have really enjoyed it saute'd in lard and covered in eggs most mornings with this style of eating, but I switched to kale because it's supposed to be better, but it just wasn't working for me, then I eliminated the veg completely, but missed the spinach and started incorporating it back in, and it was a welcome return. I just feel better with it in my diet.

I had some concerns about oxalates with the spinach, but research has shown that cooking it removes that issue, and actually increases the bio-availability of the nutrients.


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

Harvard study.https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-weight/diet-reviews/ketogenic-diet/


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

manbeer said:


> Actually atkins didnt die of heart disease but rather as a result of a fall he had, thats a common rumor though
> 
> I felt the same way until i tried the diet, but using ketones for fuel gives much more consistency. I have as much energy now as i did when i was 16, where as before i had ups and downs no matter what. Its hard to put into words the effect it has but the additional energy is very noticeable


 "using ketones for fuel' ? ketones are chemicals made in your liver. Best of luck to you guys. Harvard studies provide clear concise information on this diet. Keto diet worked sometimes for patients with epilepsy, I helped take care of many such patients for many years. so there is my to cents,bye bye.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

What's up with all the fake science vegan trolls lately? Nobody asked if you WEREN'T riding on a ketogenic diet.

Move along trolls.


.


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

A Harvard study is fake science? please elaborate.


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## rockyfat2019 (Aug 4, 2019)

I started out on keto and walking in April 2019, end of May I bought my fatbike or first bike since I was like 12 lol turned 36 this fall. I have dropped 90lbs since spring, average 10k a day. I ride my fatbike through some legit advanced mountain bike trails to. Mastodon front shock and 1x12 eagle drivetrain were the major upgrades to my bike. As far as I'm concerned fat biking has saved my life.

I'm now full carnivore for the last 60 days, dropping more weight and putting on tons of muscle. I still average 10k a day but added in weight training shortly after the carnivore progression. I have no issues with energy with zero carbs. I work a full day, put in time with the family and still fit in 10k and 40 mins of weights. Our bodies don't need carbs at all, fat is the original fuel source.

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## rockyfat2019 (Aug 4, 2019)

jupiter58 said:


> "using ketones for fuel' ? ketones are chemicals made in your liver. Best of luck to you guys. Harvard studies provide clear concise information on this diet. Keto diet worked sometimes for patients with epilepsy, I helped take care of many such patients for many years. so there is my to cents,bye bye.


You have no idea what your talking about, ketones are literally the building blocks of life, consider a fetus for instance who grows and lives in ketosis even if the mom is eating tons of carbs the baby will be back in ketosis within an hr after. How about the fact that fat is carried to the brain of a fetus with ketones and than the ketones are literally used to build the structure & tissue of the brain. You sound like you may have lived on a vegan diet in the early yrs of your life and suffered some brain development deficiencies? If you need any more facts let me know.

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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

yes, and the guys at Harvard have no idea what they are talking about.Sorry I hurt your feelings. Nice that your diet is working for you. I am providing reputable scientific studies on my posts, I am by no means an expert but I have worked in health care for 30 years as a registered respiratory therapist, I am as well informed as an RN but apparently not as smart as you you must be an endocrinologist? awesome!


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## kameramandan (Aug 5, 2019)

rockyfat2019 said:


> You have no idea what your talking about, ketones are literally the building blocks of life, consider a fetus for instance who grows and lives in ketosis even if the mom is eating tons of carbs the baby will be back in ketosis within an hr after. How about the fact that fat is carried to the brain of a fetus with ketones and than the ketones are literally used to build the structure & tissue of the brain. You sound like you may have lived on a vegan diet in the early yrs of your life and suffered some brain development deficiencies? If you need any more facts let me know.
> 
> Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk


Good thing I'm not a baby, cause the real ketogenic diet sounds f*&king awful. Luckily today's "ketogenic diet" is just a tweak on the old atkins low carb stuff and isn't really ketogenic at all. Good for losing weight quickly, but good luck maintaining it.

FYI 'Ketone bodies' is just a collective name for β-hydroxybutyrate, acetoacetate, and acetone... waste products produced by your liver when your body is starved of carbohydrates. I won't argue about what they _do_, but that's what they _are_.

It's nice to hear low carb eating is working for you


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## rockyfat2019 (Aug 4, 2019)

jupiter58 said:


> yes, and the guys at Harvard have no idea what they are talking about.Sorry I hurt your feelings. Nice that your diet is working for you. I am providing reputable scientific studies on my posts, I am by no means an expert but I have worked in health care for 30 years as a registered respiratory therapist, I am as well informed as an RN but apparently not as smart as you you must be an endocrinologist? awesome!


Lmao Family drs and RNs aren't educated in nutrition but we should take nutritional advice from a respiratory therapist? Ya thanks for your input haha.

The human body has used fat and ketones as a energy source for far longer than its used carbs/sugar. It's easily sustainable. It's not a diet it's the proper way of living.

Reputable science? Dr ancel keys did some "reputable studies" as well stating that saturated animal fats were the cause of high cholesterol and heart disease, he was full of **** and skewed all the science. He caused a chain reaction than led to the obesity epidemic.

To often do people who don't have the slightest clue of what they say open their big mouths.

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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

jupiter58 said:


> "using ketones for fuel' ? ketones are chemicals made in your liver. Best of luck to you guys. Harvard studies provide clear concise information on this diet. Keto diet worked sometimes for patients with epilepsy, I helped take care of many such patients for many years. so there is my to cents,bye bye.


A lot of incorrect terminology is thrown about on this forum. What people here are calling a keto diet is really just a variation of the old low-carb diet. As mentioned in the article, a true keto diet is 80% of the calories from fat and almost no carb. It is prescribed for certain medical conditions, most notably childhood epilepsy. Many athletes (primarily in weight class sports) use a low carb diet in the off-season to lose body fat, then return to a more normal diet for in-season.
The body needs carbs to properly digest and utilize fats and proteins, and will make its own glucose from fats as needed (gluconeogenesis).


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## rockyfat2019 (Aug 4, 2019)

dave54 said:


> A lot of incorrect terminology is thrown about on this forum. What people here are calling a keto diet is really just a variation of the old low-carb diet. As mentioned in the article, a true keto diet is 80% of the calories from fat and almost no carb. It is prescribed for certain medical conditions, most notably childhood epilepsy. Many athletes (primarily in weight class sports) use a low carb diet in the off-season to lose body fat, then return to a more normal diet for in-season.
> The body needs carbs to properly digest and utilize fats and proteins, and will make its own glucose from fats as needed (gluconeogenesis).


The body does not need outside carbs to digest and utilize fats and proteins, there is no such thing as an essential carb. Just want to make that very clear for people reading this.

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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

dave54 said:


> A lot of incorrect terminology is thrown about on this forum. What people here are calling a keto diet is really just a variation of the old low-carb diet. As mentioned in the article, a true keto diet is 80% of the calories from fat and almost no carb. It is prescribed for certain medical conditions, most notably childhood epilepsy. Many athletes (primarily in weight class sports) use a low carb diet in the off-season to lose body fat, then return to a more normal diet for in-season.
> The body needs carbs to properly digest and utilize fats and proteins, and will make its own glucose from fats as needed (gluconeogenesis).


Gluconneogenesis is when the body converts amino acid to glucose (protein) it will do this if there isn't fat for fuel or before using fat for fuel.


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## pedromj (Aug 23, 2019)

dave54 said:


> ... a true keto diet is 80% of the calories from fat and almost no carb... The body needs carbs to properly digest and utilize fats and proteins, and will make its own glucose from fats as needed (gluconeogenesis).


On the one hand, keto diets (KD) are those that promote the generation and use of ketones regardless of their macronutrient ratio. They must be found individually by measuring the ketone level after the intake of particular foods, especially those more insulinogenic, and when changing the macronutrient ratios. Some KD are 80% fat, others are as low as 50~60% fat.

On the other hand, carbs are not needed at all, but they can be somewhat convenient for some people, and are unavoidable in most diets (with permission from the pure carnivore diet).

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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Cerberus75 said:


> Gluconneogenesis is when the body converts amino acid to glucose (protein) it will do this if there isn't fat for fuel or before using fat for fuel.


Glucogenesis also can use lipids, primarily triglycerides. Either can be converted into a pyruvate substrate. And glucose is not a protein. I am sure that is a typo.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

dave54 said:


> Glucogenesis also can use lipids, primarily triglycerides. Either can be converted into a pyruvate substrate. And glucose is not a protein. I am sure that is a typo.


Correct it was a typo the (protein) should have been next to Amino Acids, to clarify what they are.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

So, I've been having a glass or two of wine in the evening instead of beer or whiskey, and noticed improvements in my digestion and sleep, so I looked it up this morning, and I guess it's a thing. Anyone else have a similar experience with red wine?

https://thetakeout.com/study-red-wi...ZronIAUYe35jCPcHoWp7QTSlip4so1s7ty1ne2V8RwuaA


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## dcb (Sep 19, 2005)

Been on a Keto diet for the last 8 days. It's been really good for:
- not feeling hungry very often
- joints feel better
- some weight loss; 9 lbs. so far
- no afternoon naps needed

It has hammered me on rides so far. For the first couple of days I was fine. I ride with a power meter and/or on a smart trainer. Pre-keto I could hold 200-210 watts and keep my HR around 130bpm. Now, it's hard to hold 150 watts and keep my HR in that zone. I've done keto diets before but it's been quite a long time and back then I wasn't riding as much so I don't have the power/hr data to look back at. 

I'm interested to see if this will change as I become better adapted to the diet. Ultimately I expect to revert to a few moderate carb days a week to support high intensity work because I like shorter mtb races and cross racing.


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## pedromj (Aug 23, 2019)

dcb said:


> Been on a Keto diet for the last 8 days. It's been really good for:
> - not feeling hungry very often
> - joints feel better
> - some weight loss; 9 lbs. so far
> ...


From my personal experience, if you are losing weight, you will lose some power. The more fat adapted you are, the more power you will have access to. 150 over 200 is quite good to begin with.

I recommend you to concentrate on HIIT and strength training, just to avoid losing as much power as possible while you are "cutting". Once you reach your target weight and increase calories, work on your endurance at higher power output.

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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

dcb said:


> Been on a Keto diet for the last 8 days. It's been really good for:
> - not feeling hungry very often
> - joints feel better
> - some weight loss; 9 lbs. so far
> ...


At only 8 days in you're still adapting. After 3 weeks you should see some improvement. As mentioned if your cutting than you'll loose power anyway.


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