# New SOMA 650B single speed?



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

With a name like the "B side" it is sure to be a hit! :thumbsup:

http://www.somafab.com/somanews.html


----------



## fatad (Oct 5, 2006)

*Maybe....*

another tire and tube size to keep up with, but might be just the ticket. Maybe make it a 29/650er or a 650/26"er I do like the Soma's, I have a groove, 4one5 and Pake. B-Side might round out the stable.


----------



## pooka (Jul 16, 2006)

Hm: 
I guess my old Rocky Mountain would make a fine 67.5er ;-)

But first impression says that Soma sounds and looks good.


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

pooka said:


> Hm:
> I guess my old Rocky Mountain would make a fine 67.5er ;-)
> 
> But first impression says that Soma sounds and looks good.


The Soma ought to be a blast! Word is Origin 8 will be showing one too... And then there is Rawland Cycles, a 650B only company launching the new brand at Interbike in a couple weeks. Those and the 8-9 other 650B MTB's that will be on display in Vegas, promises to make the 650B wheel very popular in the next few years.

Independent Fabrication isn't showing this year, but they did build a 650B MTB single speed for a guy who raced in the SSWC this past week end. I hope to have a full race report soon. See pic below:

LOTS MORE 650B INFO HERE:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...tb-tires-11794

http://cyclingplus.co.uk/newsdetails.asp?id=688

http://www.frameforum.net/forum2/ind...showtopic=3034

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007...ults/nahmbs074
click thumbnail for more pics.

http://rawlandcycles.com/

cheers,

KP


----------



## tamjam (Jan 23, 2004)

*Slightly off topic, but while on the subject of 650b...*

Kirk-

Any word on how the beads of your Neo Moto tires fit on the 650b Blunt rim? I ask because there are reports on the 29er board of loose-fitting beads and tire blow-offs with the 29er Blunt (not just the Blunt, to be fair). Wondering what the story is with the 650b version.

Also, do you know what drillings the 650b version of the Blunt is available in?

Thanks


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

tamjam said:


> Kirk-
> 
> Any word on how the beads of your Neo Moto tires fit on the 650b Blunt rim? I ask because there are reports on the 29er board of loose-fitting beads and tire blow-offs with the 29er Blunt (not just the Blunt, to be fair). Wondering what the story is with the 650b version.
> 
> ...


TJ,

There is no word yet things are still too new to know for certain. In my opinion, the tires fit on the "loose side", [especially compared to some tubeless systems] but certainly acceptable. Fwiw, Panaracer has guaranteed that they won't come off the rim.

The blunts only come in 32 hole drillings at the moment, but I am sure they could be had in other configurations should demand justify them.

Cheers,

KP


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

*Update!*

I just mounted some tires to a set of American Classic 650B MTB wheels that landed here the other day. 
The wheels were built with the 28mm wide Velocity "Blunt" rim and weigh in at 1,750g according to the manufacturer, but I have not weighed them myself yet.

The fit of the tire to the rim could not be better (perfect?). In fact it is as good as or better than any rim / tire combo that I have ever personally mounted (YRMV). The tire goes on fairly easy and without tools but requires just enough force to give your thumbs a nice work out while seating the bead. :thumbsup:

*NOTE:* I put a 26" wheel in the picture for scale. I tried to crop the shot to best show the size difference between the wheel sizes.


----------



## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

So the hub is American Classic and the rim is Velocity right? That pic is cool and that's a decent difference in wheelsize. Now I really wanna try one!


----------



## tamjam (Jan 23, 2004)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> I just mounted some tires to a set of American Classic 650B MTB wheels that landed here the other day.
> The wheels were built with the 28mm wide Velocity "Blunt" rim and weigh in at 1,750g according to the manufacturer, but I have not weighed them myself yet.
> 
> The fit of the tire to the rim could not be better (perfect?). In fact it is as good as or better than any rim / tire combo that I have ever personally mounted (YRMV). The tire goes on fairly easy and without tools but requires just enough force to give your thumbs a nice work out while seating the bead. :thumbsup:


Great news KP. Now if you could just convince Velocity to do a run of 36h rims, and have them done by the end of Sept, I might just have go with a 650b front wheel on my current (MTB tandem) project instead of 29.... (seriously)

Brian


----------



## BThor (Aug 26, 2004)

beyond possible sizing concerns, or full sus geo problems Why 650B over a 29'er?

Open minded here ...so not just a naysayer. Currently on a 29'er and love the ride...

enlighten me:


----------



## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

BThor said:


> beyond possible sizing concerns, or full sus geo problems Why 650B over a 29'er?
> 
> Open minded here ...so not just a naysayer. Currently on a 29'er and love the ride...
> 
> enlighten me:


I agree. Looking for more info. If 29er wheels work so well, why do we want less tire contact patch and less object "angle of attack"?

I too am not against change, I just want to know why first.


----------



## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*Sign me up...*

on the WHY? front. 
With 26ers, 29ers,96ers,69ers....
Kirk, Davis, and others... why anothr size?

By the way, Kirk, you left out Davis at Carver bikes out of your list.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

why 650B?
Because 29er wheels have some serious limitations to design a bike around. not everybody likes loooong wheelbases. not everybody likes the way a 29er rear wheel behaves. 
not to mention FS which is actually the main reason behind the new format's future domination. 
29er wheels will go the way of the 1 1/4 headset.


----------



## AllRounder (Feb 26, 2004)

Most of this is theoretical at this point, since the tires are so new, but the goal is to get the bigger contact patch and momentum advantages of the 29er wheels with the snappier, shorter wheelbase geometry of the 26 inch wheel frames. Apparently a number of builders have expressed an interest because you can use "standard mtb geometry" with this wheel diameter. And I agree, the big advantage with this wheel will be found in full suspension frames, but the first bike I build using 650B will be a SS!


----------



## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*ohhhhh, I see*

Doesn't this dilute and further divide the field?
How has the tire manufacturers responded to "yet another tire" size?

I am one who would benefit from bigger wheels and conventional geometry. I slot into the "Not quite tall enough for a 29er." So I ask, not to be the devil's advocate, but to gather more info.


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

1spd1way said:


> Doesn't this dilute and further divide the field?
> How has the tire manufacturers responded to "yet another tire" size?
> 
> I am one who would benefit from bigger wheels and conventional geometry. I slot into the "Not quite tall enough for a 29er." So I ask, not to be the devil's advocate, but to gather more info.


I don't think so, it's just another option. The rim size has been around for nearly a century and is quite common around the world. The only "new" part is the MTB application.

Tire makers are happy to make whatever you ask for. Panaracer is making my tire now, and I have heard rumor that other brands are considering the size.

Response from bike makers has been overwhelmingly positive. Custom builders will lead the charge because the are small enough and versitle enough to build just about anything a customer might want. The bigger players will certainly take more time to embrace it, but my feeling is that its a function of their size not lack of interest. I can say there are a few BIG players testing my tires and wheels now.

More to come after Vegas...


----------



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Without attempting to give Kirks gameplan away, basically as mentioned earlier 29ers are limiting. They do have some serious design issues/impediments call-them-what-you-will that are generally ignored by people desperate enough to be one of the cool kids or wanting to push their own barrow.

29ers of course have their place, but the impetus here from Kirk is to bring the advantage of the larger wheel across more platforms to more riders.

Because of physical design limitations, the 29" wheel can't bring that.

As for the 'dilute and divide', I don't think that's the case. I've always assertained that wheel size should vary for the size of rider, just as every other part on the bike does, and all another wheel size gives is just more options for riders out there. Not only that, it invigorates the market, so you get discussion, debate, passion, more options, less limitations......all this sounds pretty good to me!

Kirk is putting his ass on the line bigtime here and I hope it pays off for him.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Without attempting to give Kirks gameplan away, basically as mentioned earlier 29ers are limiting. They do have some serious design issues/impediments call-them-what-you-will that are generally ignored by people desperate enough to be one of the cool kids or wanting to push their own barrow.
> 
> 29ers of course have their place, but the impetus here from Kirk is to bring the advantage of the larger wheel across more platforms to more riders.
> 
> ...


this is your best post ever..


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> Without attempting to give Kirks gameplan away, basically as mentioned earlier 29ers are limiting. They do have some serious design issues/impediments call-them-what-you-will that are generally ignored by people desperate enough to be one of the cool kids or wanting to push their own barrow.
> 
> 29ers of course have their place, but the impetus here from Kirk is to bring the advantage of the larger wheel across more platforms to more riders.
> 
> ...


Warwick gets it!

This is basically the same response I have gotten from all professional Bike Designers I've discussed the project with. They all seem to see the advantage of this wheel size right away and with very little discussion or convincing. The key is to think of the bicycle as a whole and how each part impacts another.

Product managers and end users are far more skeptical. But they don't have the benefit of having built and or designed thousands of bike frames to convince them this is the right platform for most contemporary / future bike designs.

Fwiw, I also believe all wheel sizes have their place and will continue to exist and even expand. I don't view any one size as "better" than another. Neither do I think wheel size has to be an "either or" choice, but rather "both and"...


----------



## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*Ok, I get it*

Thanks for the info. I look forward to more info after Interbike.


----------



## long hazy daze (Oct 19, 2005)

I like the looks of the 650b's. I've been saying to myself for some time now that something between a 29" and 26" could potentially be the ideal all-around size and I'm glad to see it happening. 

I understand how this size can fix design limitations for shorter riders and FS bikes, but on a rigid SS for an average or taller rider what might be the advantages other than a reduction in rotational weight (e.i. quicker acceleration) and a slightly stronger wheel?

Kirk, I'm very curious in the differences between 650b vs. 29" in regards to acceleration, maintaining momentum, wheel strength and weight, and smoothness on the trail. 

I'm just about to build a new 29er non-disc wheel set with Surly hubs (high flanges) and Sun CR18 rims with DT Comps, so the result should be a rather strong wheel set with relatively low rotational weight. I'm just trying to better determine how much lighter, quicker and stronger a similarly built 650b wheel set would be whereas the only disadvantages I can foresee would be that the smaller size may not roll as smoothly, climb over obstacles nor maintain momentum as well due to the increased angle of attack (from a 29") though the difference may be negligible.

What I really want to hear is that I need not concern myself with the matter so I don't have to start planning to buy a new frame, rims and tires.


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

long hazy daze said:


> I like the looks of the 650b's. I've been saying to myself for some time now that something between a 29" and 26" could potentially be the ideal all-around size and I'm glad to see it happening.
> 
> I understand how this size can fix design limitations for shorter riders and FS bikes, but on a rigid SS for an average or taller rider what might be the advantages other than a reduction in rotational weight (e.i. quicker acceleration) and a slightly stronger wheel?
> 
> ...


How tall are you?


----------



## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

I'll buy a Lenz 650B Leviathan. Devin?


----------



## long hazy daze (Oct 19, 2005)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> How tall are you?


6'1" -barefooted.

And I must say those new tires of yours look particularly sweet!

Any plans for future production in other sizes?


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

long hazy daze said:


> 6'1" -barefooted.
> 
> And I must say those new tires of yours look particularly sweet!
> 
> Any plans for future production in other sizes?


You're a perfect candidate for this wheel size. I am 6-0 and have been riding 29ers for a long time and always felt that a slightly smaller wheel would probably be better.... 29" wheels really start to make sense for riders 6-4 and up [impo].

Yes, I have more tires planned. The next one should be ready in January and then another in June or July...

Cheers,

KP


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> I'll buy a Lenz 650B Leviathan. Devin?


Funny you should mention Lenz. The last time I spoke to Kent Eriksen he said he was going to speak with Devin about getting a custom rear end for a 650B he FS he was thinking of building. I won't put words in Kent's mouth, but he is nearly as excited about the possibility of the 650B wheel size as I am!

Fwiw, I'd prolly by a 650B Leviathan too!:thumbsup:


----------



## AllRounder (Feb 26, 2004)

Kirk - 

Any chance you've spoken with Sherwood at Ventana? I'm thinking a 650B El Salt or a Fuego. Fun to think about for sure . . .


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

AllRounder said:


> Kirk -
> 
> Any chance you've spoken with Sherwood at Ventana? I'm thinking a 650B El Salt or a Fuego. Fun to think about for sure . . .


I have sent several emails and left several voice messages for Sherwood. He is a really busy guy and I really am not surprised that he's not had a chance to get back to me yet. However I do plan to visit him at the IB show and discuss this with him.

I am very hopeful that he'll build a few bikes to test. IMO, his design is one that would easily lend itself to this wheel size. Cutting a stock 29'er rear end down to an appropriate length for a 650B wheel should be a no brainer and then it's just a matter of adjusting the BB height and building for the appropriate fork length. I have some White Brothers "Fluid 130" forks on the way and they would be a perfect fit for this bike with a 517mm AC dimension and 44mm of offset this frame / fork combo would kick butt! :thumbsup:

The truth is though... I can bug bike makers till the cows come home and they can think it's a great idea too, but with out demand from the consumer it's not going to get far. Have you tried calling Sherwood? Most makers are interested in hearing what products customers would like to see in their line up...


----------



## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*What about ..*

Someone 5'4". Please tell me 650b will make it possible for the midgets of the world!:thumbsup:


----------



## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

I am really interested in this concept. I have been riding for enough years to remember the 1.5" headset size. The builder I was working with was using them to allow for larger diameter HTs and easier miters on the TT and DTs. Anyway, when 1 1/8" came out, we were like, "What, another size?"

But look what happened and for good reasons. 1 1/8th hit the target almost perfectly with just enough to be an improvement over 1" and not quite the narrower niche of 1.5".

More recently I have been VERY interested in 29ers. I really WANT to like them (I am tall, 6'2") I have tried a HT Jamis Exile 29er and I just rented a Ventana El Rey to try on local trails (So Cal). Man, I was stoked on the way up the fireroad and really bummed on the return singletrack (loose, rocky, twisty). It just felt too much here like I was riding my Dad's bike. I have cash in hand and I cannot get myself to pull the trigger on a fully sus yet. I don't think they have it figured out yet, geometry, etc. My CDale Prophet just rips through this trail.

BUUUUTttt I loved the feel in the climbs soooo if I could get some of the good (climbing, rolling, better over chaff on the trail) and less of the balloon feeling on quick transitions and dips and difficulty in manualing the bike, and 'not-sure-how-to-make-this-handle-well' geometry I would be writing a check. Can't wait for Interbike and after!

I keep thinking baby bear, momma bear, poppa bear and the whole concept of "Juuuust right".

Signed,

"$$$ in hand and no where to spend it????"


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

1spd1way said:


> Someone 5'4". Please tell me 650b will make it possible for the midgets of the world!:thumbsup:


Yes, of course you can ride a 650B! That is the real beauty of this wheel size; you get the biggest wheel possible to fit in standard 26" wheel frame geometry. the only change needed is for the designer / builder to adjust the BB height.

In fact, I dropped a wheel set into a Surly 1x1 I have here and it's as if the bike was made for these wheels!:thumbsup:


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

mtroy said:


> I am really interested in this concept. I have been riding for enough years to remember the 1.5" headset size. The builder I was working with was using them to allow for larger diameter HTs and easier miters on the TT and DTs. Anyway, when 1 1/8" came out, we were like, "What, another size?"
> 
> But look what happened and for good reasons. 1 1/8th hit the target almost perfectly with just enough to be an improvement over 1" and not quite the narrower niche of 1.5".
> 
> ...


Email me off list and I will get you pointed in the right direction, even if I have to build the thing myself! I am positive that a 650b wheel will address the issues you mention here perfectly!

You are right on target about the "just right" part. But one of the reasons I bailed on the "Baby Bear" name is that I didn't want to set up an "us vs. them" attitude around this wheel size compared to the other available sizes. I am doing all that I can to remain objective and not get too dogmatic about the 650B size.

Admittedly, this is hard to do considering I really do think the size will work better for more people / applications. Not to mention the small fortune I have spent bringing these tires to market.


----------



## AllRounder (Feb 26, 2004)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> In fact, I dropped a wheel set into a Surly 1x1 I have here and it's as if the bike was made for these wheels!


Doh! You just gave away my top secret project! I'm building up a 1x1 with 650B wheels and drop bars to bomb around on this winter. When you look at the low bottom bracket and "Fatties Fit Fine" clearance, you're right - it looks like the 1X1 was meant to run the 650B wheels. And I'm building up some Hope wheels that I'll run SS with spacers. That way I can transfer them to that Ventana or a Waltworks next spring, if I like them wheels.


----------



## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> Email me off list and I will get you pointed in the right direction, even if I have to build the thing myself! I am positive that a 650b wheel will address the issues you mention here perfectly!
> 
> You are right on target about the "just right" part. But one of the reasons I bailed on the "Baby Bear" name is that I didn't want to set up an "us vs. them" attitude around this wheel size compared to the other available sizes. I am doing all that I can to remain objective and not get too dogmatic about the 650B size.
> 
> Admittedly, this is hard to do considering I really do think the size will work better for more people / applications. Not to mention the small fortune I have spent bringing these tires to market.


Thanks. Email sent.

mt


----------



## Papa_Otter (Aug 15, 2007)

signed


----------



## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

*Really cool.*

I have experienced the benefits of larger wheels and at 6'3" I can fit well enough on 29ers. But its been clear to many that 29" wheels can only accomodate a significant percentage of riders if sacrifices are made to frame design. Its great to see an option that offeres benefits for _everybody_. (It will be interesting to see if the 29er fanatics will accept that 650B is as legitimate as any wheels size under their logic that the wheel should fit the rider.)

More than anything it is great to see people pursuing something different and a little bit risky because they believe that good ideas will generate their own market. :thumbsup:


----------



## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*Someone, please tell me...*

Are the benefits of this wheel size going to be for the 6'0'er's!
Seems like a larger wheel size with conventional 26er geometry was talked about somewhere here.
Please tell me it's true


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

1spd1way said:


> Are the benefits of this wheel size going to be for the 6'0'er's!
> Seems like a larger wheel size with conventional 26er geometry was talked about somewhere here.
> Please tell me it's true


Yes, it's all true! :thumbsup:

Fwiw I am 6'-0" and I think this will be the perfect size for me. I have always felt 26" wheels were a little to small and 29" a little too big... I have been very happy with the way the bike rides with these wheels!

My NAHBS bike has been getting a thorough review at Dirt Rag, and the results should be going to press in the next issue (or the one after that). Though they have not divulged any of their test findings, the test rider has said that he's had "a lot of fun on the bike". Sounds good to me.


----------



## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*oops!1*

I left out the part that I'm 5'4''. Are the benefits going to extend down to midget sizing/


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

1spd1way said:


> I left out the part that I'm 5'4''. Are the benefits going to extend down to midget sizing/


If you can ride a 26er you can ride these. The beauty is that these wheels fit in standard 26" wheeled geometry designs with very few mods needed.

I just dropped these wheels in a Surly 1x1 and it's like the bike was made for these wheels! (of course you have to use disk brakes because the canti studs are in the wrong place)


----------



## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*YeeHaaaaaa11*

I happen to own a 1x1 and a Carver96er. Looks like a set of wheels and tires have moved up the list!


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

1spd1way said:


> I happen to own a 1x1 and a Carver96er. Looks like a set of wheels and tires have moved up the list!


Your LBS can order wheels from Velocity USA, BTI, J&B, QBP and probably several other places.I will have tires here soon, as will Merry Sales, BTI and J&B.

The surly is a perfect candidate because of the massive clearance and low BB. With the 650B wheel (and 2.3 tire) shoved all the way forward, there is more clearance than you'll ever need. And the BB goes up from a relatively low 11.5" to a relatively normal 12.1". This bike should ROCK!

Email me off line if you need more info...


----------



## BThor (Aug 26, 2004)

ok ...

so you can dump the 650b's into a std 26" frame with a taller bb...can you use a 26er sus fork?


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

BThor said:


> ok ...
> 
> so you can dump the 650b's into a std 26" frame with a taller bb...can you use a 26er sus fork?


Chances are you can't do this with many other 26" bikes.... the Surly's are probably the best candidates because of their unique combination of frame design features.

There may be some 26" forks that will work with the tires, but I haven't tried any yet except for an old Manitou "Black". My tires do not fit in this fork; it bottoms out on the arch. However Carl at Vicious Cycles has built 2 frames and he says the wheels just barely fit in the Fox forks he has there with about 6mm (.25") clearance all around. This is tighter than I'd like, but as long as the wheel doesn't bottom out on the crown under full compression it should be fine.

The forks that will work with no problems are the White Brothers 650B forks I have here. These were designed specifically for my tires. They come in 80mm, 100mm and 130mm versions.

Because of their lack of an arch, the other 26" forks that should work are either of the Maverick forks - with a travel reduction kit 50% as long as their 29'er kit. This should yield about 103mm travel in the SC32 and 134mm travel in the DUC 32. 
http://www.maverickbike.com/main/do/products/productID/19

Also the Cannondale Lefty and the USE S.U.B. forks should work pretty well too. I am not sure if you can modify the travel on these to accommodate a 650B wheel or not, but in any case the 29er versions would certainly work. As would any current 29er fork.


----------



## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> Chances are you can't do this with many other 26" bikes.... the Surly's are probably the best candidates because of their unique combination of frame design features.
> 
> There may be some 26" forks that will work with the tires, but I haven't tried any yet except for an old Manitou "Black". My tires do not fit in this fork; it bottoms out on the arch. However Carl at Vicious Cycles has built 2 frames and he says the wheels just barely fit in the Fox forks he has there with about 6mm (.25") clearance all around. This is tighter than I'd like, but as long as the wheel doesn't bottom out on the crown under full compression it should be fine.
> 
> ...


You can easily modify the travel of a 140mm Lefty, not sure of the other models. Likely so.


----------



## CB2 (May 7, 2006)

Well I just got on the 29'er wagon 2 months ago, which I like very much even being 5'7" on a good day, and riding tight East Coast singletrack.
So if this 650B thing takes off, I guess it'll be about 2017 before I get one.


----------



## long hazy daze (Oct 19, 2005)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> I just dropped these wheels in a Surly 1x1 and it's like the bike was made for these wheels!


And naturally, this comes out about a week after I sold my 1x1 and disc brakes. Seriously.

Dammit Kirk......

Any pics of said beast?


----------



## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> If you can ride a 26er you can ride these. The beauty is that these wheels fit in standard 26" wheeled geometry designs with very few mods needed.
> 
> I just dropped these wheels in a Surly 1x1 and it's like the bike was made for these wheels! (of course you have to use disk brakes because the canti studs are in the wrong place)


The idea of using a 1x1 sounds good and all, as does being able to use geo similar to 26" bikes. But shouldn't the 650B get it's own special geo?

I mean, if a 1x1 rides okay, what should we change and why for the geo numbers?

Do my questions even make sense?


----------



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> I am doing all that I can to remain objective and not get too dogmatic about the 650B size.


You an never get too much of the doctrine! Thou shalt let nothing stop you in your quest for ALL!

*cough* Sorry, just had a Descendents moment there


----------



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> The idea of using a 1x1 sounds good and all, as does being able to use geo similar to 26" bikes. But shouldn't the 650B get it's own special geo?
> 
> I mean, if a 1x1 rides okay, what should we change and why for the geo numbers?
> 
> Do my questions even make sense?


You're absolutely right, but Kirk used the Surly as an example as a nice way to ease everyone into the idea of 650. So those boffins with 1x1's can give the idea a go without getting a dedicated frame yet.

Kirk correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd be guessing you'd need more than about 20mm of clearance between the top of a 26" wheel and the stay crossbraces, correct, to fit a 650b in a 26" frame?

Of course if you're not into fiddling around and if you're an early adopter, get the dedicated frame forks and wheels, and let a custom builder do their job on the geometry, which to be spot-on _*will*_ be different to both 29er and 26er geo. Not by a massive amount though.


----------



## Welsh Dave (Jul 26, 2005)

*Hmmm, 650B Humu?*

Yes, pictures of the 650B Surly please, Kirk!

Another candidate might be the looptail Kona Humu. It was revived in recent years and continues into 2008 as the Eighty-Eight (or something) "Delivery" bike with a kinked top-tube. Like the Surly, it starts with a low bottom bracket.

The standard 26 inch P2 fork will take a narrow 700C tyre (had a 35C Schwalbe in mine last week). And the looong Humu rear end will take a 29er WTB Moto Raptor (49/52mm) between the relatively narrow chain stays if you slide the axle all the way back.

Fitting a much longer fork to accommodate a full 29er tyre at the front would wreck the handling, so this 650B option might be the ticket.

I'd suggest the Surly has advantages over the Humu at both ends: More clearance on the factory fork (slightly taller but also wider at the crown than a P2), and; A disc tab at the rear.

Come on, you early adopters - Start slotting weird wheels into your existing frames and let us know how the experiment goes :idea:

DM


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

i emailed vicious and they say their 425mm fork which is corrected to 63mm fork clears a 650b and neo moto tire.
that's a high end option for a 26in/650b bike.


----------



## mtbdee (Jan 31, 2005)

Another request here for pics of the 1x1 with the wheel/tire combo. Been mulling over the 650b thing for a while now. I'm right at 6', own a 1x1, K Monkey and a Kula 2-9 and I owned a Walt. I'm really used to the handling of my 29ers but still love ripping around on the 1x1, the acceleration is such a beautiful thing after riding the 29ers for a while. The Soma might be a really cost effective way to go considering how reasonable their bikes are priced. My LBS sells some Somas and I really _need_ to try another bike...


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

mtbdee said:


> Another request here for pics of the 1x1 with the wheel/tire combo. Been mulling over the 650b thing for a while now. I'm right at 6', own a 1x1, K Monkey and a Kula 2-9 and I owned a Walt. I'm really used to the handling of my 29ers but still love ripping around on the 1x1, the acceleration is such a beautiful thing after riding the 29ers for a while. The Soma might be a really cost effective way to go considering how reasonable their bikes are priced. My LBS sells some Somas and I really _need_ to try another bike...


I will try to snap some pics soon... too busy getting ready for IB right now. Plus the bike is not built up. The frame and fork was just sitting around so I dropped the wheels in to check the fit.

As I said before, it's like the frame was built for these wheels. With the rear wheel slammed all the way forward, the clearances are perfect and the BB comes in right about 12.1". :thumbsup:


----------



## Pluto Pilot (Feb 20, 2004)

I'm personally stoked for this format. I rode a 29er for 2-3 years, and while I liked certain elements of it (downhill performance, smoothness), I missed the peppiness of the 26er, and actually went back completely this year. That said, I think this should, in theory, be the best of both worlds. I'm going to give it a go with my current Moots Rigor Mootis (it has a rigid Black Sheep fork - clearance no problem - the bottom bracket will be high, but it will give me an idea of how the wheels work before I invest cash in a new frame. How does one go about getting a wheel set and tires, and what should I even ask for?


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

Pluto Pilot said:


> I'm personally stoked for this format. I rode a 29er for 2-3 years, and while I liked certain elements of it (downhill performance, smoothness), I missed the peppiness of the 26er, and actually went back completely this year. That said, I think this should, in theory, be the best of both worlds. I'm going to give it a go with my current Moots Rigor Mootis (it has a rigid Black Sheep fork - clearance no problem - the bottom bracket will be high, but it will give me an idea of how the wheels work before I invest cash in a new frame. How does one go about getting a wheel set and tires, and what should I even ask for?


PP,

One of my primary goals in creating MTB tires for this rim size was to make what is probably best described as a more "flickable" 29er. So far I have been very happy with the results. I think this wheel size will address your concerns perfectly. Though I am not sure the wheel will fit in the rear end of a Moots. I have tested the fit of these wheels in a Surly 1x1 and it's as if the bike was made for these wheels. Perfect clearance front and rear and the BB comes up to 12.1" -12.2" from 11.5".

You should be able to get all you need from your LBS right now except for tires. QBP sells the Velocity "Synergy" rim in the 650B size. Or your LBS can call Velocity direct and get the new "Blunt" rim. If your looking for a "boxed" wheel, you can have your them contact American Classic too... they just built me a few sets of wheels based on the Blunt rim. I also have a couple sets of the Cane Creek "ZONOS TEAM DISK" wheels here if you interested. I have you covered if you need a suspension fork as well. White Brothers (my personal favorite for the last 5-6 years) was kind enough to build 650B specific forks for me in 80, 100 and 130mm versions.

As for tires, my new Neo-Moto tires will be landing here on October 10th, and I can start shipping immediately after that. Your LBS will also be able to purchase my tires from BTI, J&B Importers and Merry Sales soon... I hope to sign other distributors in the near future as well.

Cheers,

KP


----------



## buggymancan (Jan 30, 2005)

Kirk, 

I like the idea! What is the actual height of the wheel you picture, with your tire mounted on the Velocity Rim? This measurement will help me determine which of my current collection of forks the tire will fit. Thanks!


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> I will try to snap some pics soon... too busy getting ready for IB right now. Plus the bike is not built up. The frame and fork was just sitting around so I dropped the wheels in to check the fit.
> 
> As I said before, it's like the frame was built for these wheels. With the rear wheel slammed all the way forward, the clearances are perfect and the BB comes in right about 12.1". :thumbsup:


damm... perfect.


----------



## totally_fixxated (Aug 24, 2005)

*650b*

Not SS, but 650B just-the-same.










https://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/pacenti-650b-vs-29er-7639
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/pacenti-rolls-out-650b-mtb-8097
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/pacenti-introducing-650b-mtb-tires-11794


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

totally_fixxated said:


> Not SS, but 650B just-the-same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this is aesthethically perfect.


----------



## Pluto Pilot (Feb 20, 2004)

colker1 said:


> this is aesthethically perfect.


That struck me too. In the few photos I've seen of 27.5" bikes - they just look right.


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

I am very impressed with the quality of the posts here. I have been very interested in 650b wheeled bikes for a while. Kirk's showing of his at the NAHBS really piqued my interest. I am 6'3" tall and have ridden mountain bikes for about 21 years. I always felt like a bear on a bike with 26" wheels, but they never let me not have great fun riding. 

I designed the Haro Mary and essentially, the 20" large one was a no brainer to design. Although, I had to lengthen the chainstays to accomodate 29" wheels to clear the seat tube because I wanted to have a seat tube angle that was proper and not steepened to fit 29" wheels with as short as possible chainstays. In the end, I personally liked the longer stays because it makes the bike climb without having the front end feel too light (yes, I believe long chainstay bikes climb better than short - look at hill climb motorcycles). 

Where the 20" was an easy design challenge, the smaller bikes took much more effort and some trial and error. Getting the front end to clear riders' feet was challenging. The other aspect of 29" bikes I'm not too keen on is the super short head tube required to keep the handlebar position with in a reasonable height range. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that combined with the longer lever of the 29" fork, the short 80mm - 100mm head tubes, head tube breakage could be a real possibility. Gussets help. 

I am very proud of the end result in the Mary and love how mine rides. But, there is no mistaking, the wheels are BIG, especially with 2.55 LT's. And the wheels are heavy. I'm not a fan of tubeless or other weight reduction tactics. Give me a nice rim, 32 spokes, hub, tire, tube, and rim strip. 

Okay, I'm rambling now. What's this all mean? I like the contact patch on 29" wheels. I like the weight of 26" wheels. I like the gentle, neutral handling of 29" wheels. I like the flickable nature of 26" wheels. So what if all these traits are combined? I believe that if they are, you get Kirk's 650b wheel. And with that, I too have designed myself a frame that I'll be selling (eventually) under my shop name for 650b wheels which is (should be) being made soon. 

There will be (is already?) grumbling about "another wheel size." But like Kirk says, it's really just another option. There are a lot of options in mountain bikes - DH, All Mountain, XC hardtail, XC full suspension, 3" travel, 4" travel, 5" travel, 6" travel....., single speed, 29er, 69er, 96er. Really with all the different types of mountain bikes available, an additional type with 650b wheels is a great option for riders to get exactly what they want. And because suspension designers can now take advantage of larger wheels' characteristics and combine with their incredible designs will only mean that fans of suspension bikes will be getting some incredible machines in the future. 

Sorry, that was sort of a ramble.


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

buggymancan said:


> Kirk,
> 
> I like the idea! What is the actual height of the wheel you picture, with your tire mounted on the Velocity Rim? This measurement will help me determine which of my current collection of forks the tire will fit. Thanks!


The wheel as pictured measures 27.64" in diameter (702mm) at 40psi. That makes for a wheel radius of 13.82" (351mm). So, simply subtract the amount of BB drop your frame has from the radius and you will know what the BB height will be.

Cheers,

KP


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

ssmike said:


> I am very impressed with the quality of the posts here. I have been very interested in 650b wheeled bikes for a while. Kirk's showing of his at the NAHBS really piqued my interest. I am 6'3" tall and have ridden mountain bikes for about 21 years. I always felt like a bear on a bike with 26" wheels, but they never let me not have great fun riding.
> 
> I designed the Haro Mary and essentially, the 20" large one was a no brainer to design. Although, I had to lengthen the chainstays to accomodate 29" wheels to clear the seat tube because I wanted to have a seat tube angle that was proper and not steepened to fit 29" wheels with as short as possible chainstays. In the end, I personally liked the longer stays because it makes the bike climb without having the front end feel too light (yes, I believe long chainstay bikes climb better than short - look at hill climb motorcycles).
> 
> ...


Thanks Mike,

You and many of the other designers I have spoken with about the wheel size seem to really get what I am attempting to do / address with this tire.

Furthermore, I think we are on the same page from a design pov. As a general rule, I like slack seat angles, steep-ish head angles (72/72), mid-length chainstays and the longest head tube as the design will allow. All of my preferred design features, plus TCO become a real challenge with most 29ers.

I am very hopeful that the industry will embrace the wheel size much quicker than it did 29'ers, (so far they have) and that riders will benefit from the best features of both wheel sizes without many of the compromises. I am particularly interested in seeing where this can go with full suspension...

Can't wait to see your new bike! I when will the production run be landing at your shop? I am tempted to do a run of "Pacenti" branded bikes too... if only to insure that I can sell the tires I've had made! 

Cheers,

KP


----------



## Welsh Dave (Jul 26, 2005)

*Agree*



Pluto Pilot said:


> That struck me too. In the few photos I've seen of 27.5" bikes - they just look right.


Yeah, I was down in "the bike basement" yesterday, working on my 26er Humu.
Next to it were my 29er Fisher and 650B Raleigh Roadster (1964).

Proportionally, the 650B looks very well balanced. The wheels _"work" _ for a large range of rider heights without necessitating any geometry compromises due to toe overlap etc.

On paper, there's not much between 650B and 559 MTB rims. But in a direct comparison, the Humu wheels do honestly look under-sized and quite silly. Especially as my saddle is set way up in the air on all three bikes.

If I'd had a few hours spare I'd have swapped the 650Bs onto the Humu. But the Raleigh has rod-activated brakes, which complicates wheel removal somewhat.

In other respects, the Roadster is very interesting: Swept back bars, hub gear, enclosed chain drive, dynohub lighting system, brazed crown fork, Brooks saddle - Hell, with those features all currently making a comeback, that thing could be next year's uber-hip niche bike.


----------



## buggymancan (Jan 30, 2005)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> The wheel as pictured measures 27.64" in diameter (702mm) at 40psi. That makes for a wheel radius of 13.82" (351mm). So, simply subtract the amount of BB drop your frame has from the radius and you will know what the BB height will be.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> KP


Kirk,

Ok, looks like the 07'/ 08' corp of Fox Forx may work , as I measure 358 mm +_ axle center to fork brace, thus leaving 358 - 351 = 7 mm or 1/4" of tire/ fork arch clearance, sa you stated. This is marginal, but probably works in my dry tahe ridig climate. Please e-mail em as soon as the velicity Rim and tire become available!


----------



## Pluto Pilot (Feb 20, 2004)

Based on these number, I think this could work with the Moots Rigor Mootis/Uno!

With a pair of Mavic Wheels and Hutchinson Python tires that are on the bike now, the wheel diameter is actually 26.5" on the nose, or a 13.25" radius. The bottom bracket measured ground to center of the BB spindle is 11 and 11/16". That would only raise the BB to 12.25" with the 650B set-up...a little high but certainly manageable. The bike also has the Moots Uno sliding drop-outs, so you can actually accommodate for a larger wheel size by sliding the drops back, even though I'm not sure it's necessary because there is quite a bit of clearance back there already. I also think sliding these back slightly lower the BB, as the drops appear to be on a bit of an angle.

Fork clearance isn't really an issue at all - I can fit a 29 wheel and have clearance, as it is a rigid. Out of curiosity, what would be the optimal rigid fork custom length for a set up like the one I described for a 650B wheel set.

Looks like I'll be giving the 650B thing a try!



Kirk Pacenti said:


> The wheel as pictured measures 27.64" in diameter (702mm) at 40psi. That makes for a wheel radius of 13.82" (351mm). So, simply subtract the amount of BB drop your frame has from the radius and you will know what the BB height will be.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> KP


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

buggymancan said:


> Kirk,
> 
> Ok, looks like the 07'/ 08' corp of Fox Forx may work , as I measure 358 mm +_ axle center to fork brace, thus leaving 358 - 351 = 7 mm or 1/4" of tire/ fork arch clearance, sa you stated. This is marginal, but probably works in my dry tahe ridig climate. Please e-mail em as soon as the velicity Rim and tire become available!


Velocity rims are available now. Have your LBS contact Velocity directly for the 650B Blunt or Synergy rims. The tires will be landing here on October 10th.


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

Pluto Pilot said:


> Based on these number, I think this could work with the Moots Rigor Mootis/Uno!
> 
> With a pair of Mavic Wheels and Hutchinson Python tires that are on the bike now, the wheel diameter is actually 26.5" on the nose, or a 13.25" radius. The bottom bracket measured ground to center of the BB spindle is 11 and 11/16". That would only raise the BB to 12.25" with the 650B set-up...a little high but certainly manageable. The bike also has the Moots Uno sliding drop-outs, so you can actually accommodate for a larger wheel size by sliding the drops back, even though I'm not sure it's necessary because there is quite a bit of clearance back there already. I also think sliding these back slightly lower the BB, as the drops appear to be on a bit of an angle.
> 
> ...


PP,

Sounds like you are all set, everything is well within the range of "normal" MTB design. The best fork length for your bike is the one it was designed for. Moots should be able to give you that #. Of course any suspension corrected fork will work.

However, if I were to design a rigid specific fork I think 415 would be the magic number for 650B wheels.


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

*pics*

Here you go, I managed to snap a few this afternoon...


----------



## tamjam (Jan 23, 2004)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> Here you go, I managed to snap a few this afternoon...


Awesome...I have never wanted a 1x1 as much as I do now...someone better call Surly and make sure they're stocked for the run on their 1x1 framesets that's about to happen!!


----------



## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

Other forks that come to mind that would work are older Marzocchi Shiver single crowns (120mm and then I think they dropped down to 100 in latter years), I betcha Manitou X-Vert forks will have enough crown clearance (I believe thise were 100mm forks with nice TPC damping) and a whole slew of inverted dual crown forks would work (especially white brothers forks) if you were to do some type of long travel front 650b bike.

Just some additional forks to ponder over. If you want to see what one of these wheels looks like in a Fox fork - downhill Jill from Haro has a write up on her blog about throwing a set of 650bs on a Haro Werx Xeon.


----------



## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> Here you go, I managed to snap a few this afternoon...


Those white rims look pimptastically delicious on that Lime green 1x1!


----------



## pooka (Jul 16, 2006)

I want a WTB Phoenix Replic for those 650b wheels. Damn.

Kirk, as well as I understood, you designed this Soma frame mentioned above. Can you give some geo specs?


----------



## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

So what would happen to a 29er frame like a Karate Monkey with 650B wheels? BB would be lower, the CS are already shorter than most 29ers, and a 29er 80mm fork like RST would work fine as long as disc brakes were being used. Just curious as I happen to have a KM frame ready to build up.


----------



## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Anyone read this yet? Not SS specific, but it seems applicable to the thread.

http://bikebizbabe.blogspot.com/2007/09/650b-experiment.html


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

mtroy said:


> So what would happen to a 29er frame like a Karate Monkey with 650B wheels? BB would be lower, the CS are already shorter than most 29ers, and a 29er 80mm fork like RST would work fine as long as disc brakes were being used. Just curious as I happen to have a KM frame ready to build up.


Probably a pedal smacker. It's usually okay to go a little higher. A little lower and it can make for some fantastic pedal strikes.


----------



## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

ssmike said:


> Probably a pedal smacker. It's usually okay to go a little higher. A little lower and it can make for some fantastic pedal strikes.


I found the KM to be particularly vulnerable to pedal strike even with 29" wheels.


----------



## dankilling (Feb 24, 2004)

This discussion sucks- I was all ready to buy a Mary SS too! Bastards, putting ideas into my head like this


----------



## mtbdee (Jan 31, 2005)

This thread pretty much convinced me to go ahead with a wheel build over the next few months. I'm thinking of using my old Hayes branded Hugi hubs laced to Velocity Blunt rims. Nothing fancy - just good old 3X with some double butted DT spokes. It'll be a nice winter project. I figure if I can try it on the 1x1 I already own then why not give it a whirl?


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

mtbdee said:


> This thread pretty much convinced me to go ahead with a wheel build over the next few months. I'm thinking of using my old Hayes branded Hugi hubs laced to Velocity Blunt rims. Nothing fancy - just good old 3X with some double butted DT spokes. It'll be a nice winter project. I figure if I can try it on the 1x1 I already own then why not give it a whirl?


Fwiw, I think this is exactly where the 650b wheel will see the most growth initially. Converting existing bike to this wheel size is easy provided you have the clearance, and will be a very low cost way to test the waters. That combined with keeping the bike within the normal geometry range, it's win / win.

I can't wait to see the bikes from Soma and Origin 8. Mid priced frames like theirs are the next step in having this take off. With these companies getting involved you can get a 650B specific frame for a very reasonable price.

I am working on converting a Santa Cruz Nomad! a bit more of a challenge and way more expensive than a SS, but I think I can actually make something that will really work well that will appeal to a lot of people.


----------



## Zion Rasta (Jan 7, 2004)

*Why???*



colker1 said:


> why 650B?
> Because 29er wheels have some serious limitations to design a bike around. not everybody likes loooong wheelbases. not everybody likes the way a 29er rear wheel behaves.
> not to mention FS which is actually the main reason behind the new format's future domination.
> 29er wheels will go the way of the 1 1/4 headset.


It is called business. More specifically marketing. By fragmenting the market once more, and if you are a first mover on a made up niche, then you could make a lot of money. Too bad you could not patent a tire size. Tony Ellsworth would be all over that... At the same time it is a risk. When GF tried the 29'er thing 5 years ago, it did not take off because full suspension and "AM" bikes where taking off.

The real sufferers are the new people to the sport. If it was confusing before to get your first MTB, now is like: HT, FS, 26, 29, 27.5, FR, AM, Trail, XC, DH, SS, gearie, comp, pro, expert, hybrid, custom, made usa, taiwan, made in ?, steel, aluminium, Titanium, carbon, magnesium, hydro, mechanical, v-brake, and so on and so forth?

So what bike do you get?


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Zion Rasta said:


> It is called business. More specifically marketing. By fragmenting the market once more, and if you are a first mover on a made up niche, then you could make a lot of money. Too bad you could not patent a tire size. Tony Ellsworth would be all over that... At the same time it is a risk. When GF tried the 29'er thing 5 years ago, it did not take off because full suspension and "AM" bikes where taking off.
> 
> The real sufferers are the new people to the sport. If it was confusing before to get your first MTB, now is like: HT, FS, 26, 29, 27.5, FR, AM, Trail, XC, DH, SS, gearie, comp, pro, expert, hybrid, custom, made usa, taiwan, made in ?, steel, aluminium, Titanium, carbon, magnesium, hydro, mechanical, v-brake, and so on and so forth?
> 
> So what bike do you get?


a 650B for all around riding. easy. geared w/ 2 x 8sp and vbrakes.
edit: don't forget a dirt drop bar.


----------



## pooka (Jul 16, 2006)

colker1 said:


> a 650B for all around riding. easy. geared w/ 2 x 8sp and vbrakes.
> edit: don't forget a dirt drop bar.




but 1x 4 is way enough of gearing

and quality rigid forks imho


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

pooka said:


> but 1x 4 is way enough of gearing
> 
> and quality rigid forks imho


absolutely. sweet steel compliant forks please.


----------



## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

mtbdee said:


> This thread pretty much convinced me to go ahead with a wheel build over the next few months. I'm thinking of using my old Hayes branded Hugi hubs laced to Velocity Blunt rims. Nothing fancy - just good old 3X with some double butted DT spokes. It'll be a nice winter project. I figure if I can try it on the 1x1 I already own then why not give it a whirl?


Go for it!

Wanna build a third out of a hub I send ya?  Just a front wheel for now to possibly convert an old Marin Bear Valley that I can't figure out what to do with yet. Dual 26 isn't doing it, and it is too old for a proper 69er set up.


----------



## pooka (Jul 16, 2006)

colker1 said:


> absolutely. sweet steel compliant forks please.


Are there any other ?

Btw: I should admid, I love my flatbars too?


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

MMcG said:


> Go for it!
> 
> Wanna build a third out of a hub I send ya?  Just a front wheel for now to possibly convert an old Marin Bear Valley that I can't figure out what to do with yet. Dual 26 isn't doing it, and it is too old for a proper 69er set up.


MMcG,

Sorry, I don't build wheels, but have your LBS call Velocity, they will hook you up.


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

pooka said:


> I want a WTB Phoenix Replic for those 650b wheels. Damn.
> 
> Kirk, as well as I understood, you designed this Soma frame mentioned above. Can you give some geo specs?


Pooka,

I didn't "design" the Soma exactly. I did make some "suggestions" to them, and made the CAD drawing for the prototype so that they could get it built in time for Interbike.

The overall design of the frame was done by Stan at Soma. I am sure they will get some information out about the frame in the next few weeks / months. Or just contact them through their web site and get the straight dope from them.

Cheers,

KP


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

pooka said:


> I want a WTB Phoenix Replic for those 650b wheels. Damn.


...and as a side note, the Phoenix was the exact inspiration I drew from when I did the Mary. I love riding my Phoenix. Its handling is exactly like a bike should ride.


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

ssmike said:


> ...and as a side note, the Phoenix was the exact inspiration I drew from when I did the Mary. I love riding my Phoenix. Its handling is exactly like a bike should ride.


Yes, that is one sweet bike... I never did own one or even get to ride one for that matter, but I sure did spend a lot of time lusting over them!

On a related 650B note,I thought you would be particularly interested in this link ssmike!  Now if I can just get this in the Sonix format, I would be really stoked! 
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=339675

Cheers,

KP


----------



## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> MMcG,
> 
> Sorry, I don't build wheels, but have your LBS call Velocity, they will hook you up.


Kirk - that was sort of a half joke for mtbdee up there - and not aimed for you. mtbdee is another New Englander like me and we've exchanged a few parts over time.

Cheers,

Mark


----------



## pooka (Jul 16, 2006)

I didn´t know that it was you ssmike, but I knew about the connection between the Phoenix and the Haro Mary. 

I thought about buying a mary before, but wasn´t sure if it wouldn´t be better to wait until the 29er geometry war will be ended. I guess it will continue.

That is why I´m so interested in 650b. I very well could imagine to use the benfits of bigger wheels with a geometry that reflects my riding style: somewhat active bmxy in trails and powerful (ss) in technical climbs.

But I guess it still takes a while to try 650b for me, because it is so much more complicate and expensive to gets the stuff while living in europe. Just imagine, the experiment goes well. The only way get a tire is to order one in the US. And tyres aren´t made to last. They easily could fail cos someone stupid throw a broken bottle of beer on the trail.


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> Yes, that is one sweet bike... I never did own one or even get to ride one for that matter, but I sure did spend a lot of time lusting over them!
> 
> On a related 650B note,I thought you would be particularly interested in this link ssmike!  Now if I can just get this in the Sonix format, I would be really stoked!
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=339675
> ...


To bring this back into single speed realm, I rode the Sonix as a single speed for quite a while. It worked very nicely as a ss. I do know that it won't accept 650b wheels because the chainstay length is quite short and there isn't clearance to spare with the 26" wheels. And that was a good write up on the 650b/26 test. Sounds like 650b is "just right."

@ pooka - I know there is some tweaking still going on in the 29" realm - especially with offsets on suspension forks. But for the most part, I think there are a lot of frames that have the geometry (or at least the ride) dialed in pretty good. I don't think you will gain too much by waiting any longer to give big wheels a try.


----------



## steelbike (Jan 6, 2004)

*650b rim question*

How are the Synergy rims with the 2.3 tires?
They should be wide enough, right?


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

steelbike said:


> How are the Synergy rims with the 2.3 tires?
> They should be wide enough, right?


Yes, the Synergy is wide enough. In fact, that is the rim had Cane Creek build some wheel sets on.

SS content: I am going to ask American Classic and Velocity to make some SS wheels for me soon.:thumbsup:


----------



## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

First....I think we need a 650b thread specific to conversions (up from 26") so we stop polluting the SS forum, but until then, I will post this.

I deflated the rear shock on my Cannondale Prophet and measured this: 1" of clearance to the ST. The tire is a fairly decent sized 2.25 IRC Trail bear. I am not sure if the shock can even go this far in its normal travel cycle, but allowing for a, say .75" increase in overall diameter, and if the tire size was comparable, it looks like it would be a cinch.

By the way, I measure 6" from the top of the tire to the bottom of the fork crown on the Max 140mm Lefty. If that was an issue, they are very easy to reduce the travel on.


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

mtroy said:


> First....I think we need a 650b thread specific to conversions (up from 26") so we stop polluting the SS forum, but until then, I will post this.
> 
> I deflated the rear shock on my Cannondale Prophet and measured this: 1" of clearance to the ST. The tire is a fairly decent sized 2.25 IRC Trail bear. I am not sure if the shock can even go this far in its normal travel cycle, but allowing for a, say .75" increase in overall diameter, and if the tire size was comparable, it looks like it would be a cinch.
> 
> By the way, I measure 6" from the top of the tire to the bottom of the fork crown on the Max 140mm Lefty. If that was an issue, they are very easy to reduce the travel on.


I agree, and have asked for one on a couple occasions.... soon???

Looks like you'd have enough clearance to me. The Prophet and the Heckler seem like very good candidates for a 650b conversion. The lefty should be a no brainer.

EDIT: I would just be certain that the larger 650B wheel will not strike the FD under full compression.


----------



## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> I agree, and have asked for one on a couple occasions.... soon???
> 
> Looks like you'd have enough clearance to me. The Prophet and the Heckler seem like very good candidates for a 650b conversion. The lefty should be a no brainer.


Post I-Bike, there should be a 650B forum. Just my .02

So, after the show is over and the confetti is on the floor and swept away, we can see what rim choices we have. I have heard that the Velocity rims run a bit 'loose' as far as tire/bead mating. Of course, tires are the first obstacle. Soon eh, KP?

Once I get a few financial ducks in a row, I would love to build up a set and get out on the trail. Save me from selling my Prophet!


----------



## Kirk Pacenti (Sep 26, 2006)

mtroy said:


> Post I-Bike, there should be a 650B forum. Just my .02
> 
> So, after the show is over and the confetti is on the floor and swept away, we can see what rim choices we have. I have heard that the Velocity rims run a bit 'loose' as far as tire/bead mating. Of course, tires are the first obstacle. Soon eh, KP?
> 
> Once I get a few financial ducks in a row, I would love to build up a set and get out on the trail. Save me from selling my Prophet!


Rims:

Velocity Blunt and Synergy. Sun CR18. The thing with rims is they are pretty easy to have rolled up to any size you want. In fact I have a meeting with Velocity to discuss a larger, 32mm version of the Blunt.

The Synergy's do seem a bit loose to me, but Panaracer says the tires will not come off the rim. And as I stated in an earlier post, the AmClassic / Velocity wheels I have here built on the blunts could not be more perfect.

Tires:

Right now there is just the Pacenti Neo-Moto tire. They should be landing here October 10th. I will be releasing a more XC / race type tire in February as well.


----------



## hurf de durf (Aug 23, 2007)

Would one be able to run a v-brake set up on a 650B'ed Surly 1x1?


----------



## tamjam (Jan 23, 2004)

hurf de durf said:


> Would one be able to run a v-brake set up on a 650B'ed Surly 1x1?


Something like Paul's Moto BMX would probably work, but not regular v-brakes, since they'd miss the brake track on the rim...

http://www.paulcomp.com/motobmx.html


----------



## somacisco (Aug 17, 2004)

*Soma B-Side Picture*

Here's a link to a picture of the complete frame built up
as displayed at IB








https://www.flickr.com/photos/somafab

Because of the difficulties with our first painter. This got finished really late. And shipped straight to Vegas.
No one has even ridden it yet. But I did read Dirt Rag's review of Kirk's ti bike. Seems 650b will be living up to its theoretical promises.



Kirk Pacenti said:


> With a name like the "B side" it is sure to be a hit! :thumbsup:
> 
> https://www.somafab.com/somanews.html


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

somacisco said:


> Here's a link to a picture of the complete frame built up
> as displayed at IB
> 
> 
> ...


that seat angle looks steep! i can't ride anything technical on steep angles.. maybe it's the pic angle or the very short chainstays but that bike scares me..


----------



## somacisco (Aug 17, 2004)

The seat angle is supposed to be 73 which is pretty standard.
Most of the design is very close to 26" wheel bikes, but we did to make changes to keep standover and bar height what people with 26" bikes expect. I read on someone's blog that mentioned this is production....no it is NOT. It was a custom one-off built by El Camino Fabrications in Emeryville. We still need to test this bike's geometry and we want to hear MORE noise from people willing to try a third wheel size.

This is 650b MTB thing is at a critical stage. Some people are assuming those behind the 650b MTB push is trying to supplant either 26ers or 29ers. No way. Some people are already talking..."Is it healthy for the bike industry?" That is silly talk right now. Pacenti and the 8 or so small builders/brands who showed bikes at IB -- if you put them all together --still have less influence on the industry than Trek-backed Gary Fisher. In my opinion it hinges on the adventurous spirit of the mountain biker population whether this promising experiment has a chance to exist or is crushed even before it people get to try one. We need open-minded riders to let their thoughts be known. 

That said a small builder like Soma doesn't need hear from a thousand people. I think if we even get 50 positive e-mails we would make plans for a production run.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

i would forget norba geometry and reach for a different personality handling wise. i would not fear longer chainstays. i prefer 17+ cs than the 16.75 taht became standard. a fat chance wicked which is heralded as the transcedental new england mtb has 17.15 cs. why should a 650B insist on short CS? why do we have to have a susp. forks? it makes bikes expensive, maintenance b!tches and most of the time we can get away w/ a rigid fork. not to mention a tall front end. btw.. do something w/ a drop bar in sight. a midge or wtb dirt drop bar.
make something different. let the 26in be 26in and do something new. give me a reason to buyu one. otherwise i will keep riding a 26in and spend elsewhere.



somacisco said:


> The seat angle is supposed to be 73 which is pretty standard.
> Most of the design is very close to 26" wheel bikes, but we did to make changes to keep standover and bar height what people with 26" bikes expect. I read on someone's blog that mentioned this is production....no it is NOT. It was a custom one-off built by El Camino Fabrications in Emeryville. We still need to test this bike's geometry and we want to hear MORE noise from people willing to try a third wheel size.
> 
> This is 650b MTB thing is at a critical stage. Some people are assuming those behind the 650b MTB push is trying to supplant either 26ers or 29ers. No way. Some people are already talking..."Is it healthy for the bike industry?" That is silly talk right now. Pacenti and the 8 or so small builders/brands who showed bikes at IB -- if you put them all together --still have less influence on the industry than Trek-backed Gary Fisher. In my opinion it hinges on the adventurous spirit of the mountain biker population whether this promising experiment has a chance to exist or is crushed even before it people get to try one. We need open-minded riders to let their thoughts be known.
> ...


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

tamjam said:


> Something like Paul's Moto BMX would probably work, but not regular v-brakes, since they'd miss the brake track on the rim...
> 
> http://www.paulcomp.com/motobmx.html


or discs.


----------



## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

colker1 said:


> i would forget norba geometry and reach for a different personality handling wise. i would not fear longer chainstays. i prefer 17+ cs than the 16.75 taht became standard. a fat chance wicked which is heralded as the transcedental new england mtb has 17.15 cs. why should a 650B insist on short CS? why do we have to have a susp. forks? it makes bikes expensive, maintenance b!tches and most of the time we can get away w/ a rigid fork. not to mention a tall front end. btw.. do something w/ a drop bar in sight. a midge or wtb dirt drop bar.
> make something different. let the 26in be 26in and do something new. give me a reason to buyu one. otherwise i will keep riding a 26in and spend elsewhere.


I have to say there is some wisdom in that.


----------



## tamjam (Jan 23, 2004)

somacisco said:


> The seat angle is supposed to be 73 which is pretty standard.
> Most of the design is very close to 26" wheel bikes, but we did to make changes to keep standover and bar height what people with 26" bikes expect. I read on someone's blog that mentioned this is production....no it is NOT. It was a custom one-off built by El Camino Fabrications in Emeryville. We still need to test this bike's geometry and we want to hear MORE noise from people willing to try a third wheel size.
> 
> This is 650b MTB thing is at a critical stage. Some people are assuming those behind the 650b MTB push is trying to supplant either 26ers or 29ers. No way. Some people are already talking..."Is it healthy for the bike industry?" That is silly talk right now. Pacenti and the 8 or so small builders/brands who showed bikes at IB -- if you put them all together --still have less influence on the industry than Trek-backed Gary Fisher. In my opinion it hinges on the adventurous spirit of the mountain biker population whether this promising experiment has a chance to exist or is crushed even before it people get to try one. We need open-minded riders to let their thoughts be known.
> ...


Well I think it looks great...but it could be the great paint job, who knows! Whatever it is, I like the way it came out. How much do ya want for that prototype  the size looks about right...

Anyway, I will be giving this whole 27.5 thing a try as soon as my wheelset arrives. Seeing that 1x1 picture Kirk posted towards the beginning of this thread got me interested in trying one built up that way. I expect it will make a fun SS...we'll see. I am not sure what to expect really, as I have been riding and loving 29ers exclusively for the past 3 years, but I am willing to give nearly anything bike-related a try at least once. If I really like how the 1x1 feels as a 27.5 SS, I could see somehow making room in my stable for a 27.5 FS, but I doubt I'll ever quit 29ers all together.

Thanks somacisco for being willing to venture in this direction, and soliciting opinions from the Board, even if you might not like what everyone has to say!

Oh yeah, almost forgot, I think what Colker1 said below about being creative with the geometry is a good idea...


----------



## Guest (Oct 2, 2007)

tamjam said:


> Well I think it looks great...but it could be the great paint job, who knows! Whatever it is, I like the way it came out. How much do ya want for that prototype  the size looks about right...
> 
> Anyway, I will be giving this whole 27.5 thing a try as soon as my wheelset arrives. Seeing that 1x1 picture Kirk posted towards the beginning of this thread got me interested in trying one built up that way. I expect it will make a fun SS...we'll see. I am not sure what to expect really, as I have been riding and loving 29ers exclusively for the past 3 years, but I am willing to give nearly anything bike-related a try at least once. If I really like how the 1x1 feels as a 27.5 SS, I could see somehow making room in my stable for a 27.5 FS, but I doubt I'll ever quit 29ers all together.
> 
> ...


Be sure to keep us all updated as to how this experiment proceeds for you. I for one am very interested in this conceptually at least. Currently on a 29'er and really enjoy the benefits that come from it, but if I could be riding a bike that would handle high speed turns and rock gardens as well as the 29'er, but with less rotating weight I'm game!


----------



## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

colker1 said:


> i would forget norba geometry and reach for a different personality handling wise. i would not fear longer chainstays. i prefer 17+ cs than the 16.75 taht became standard. a fat chance wicked which is heralded as the transcedental new england mtb has 17.15 cs. why should a 650B insist on short CS? why do we have to have a susp. forks? it makes bikes expensive, maintenance b!tches and most of the time we can get away w/ a rigid fork. not to mention a tall front end. btw.. do something w/ a drop bar in sight. a midge or wtb dirt drop bar.
> make something different. let the 26in be 26in and do something new. give me a reason to buyu one. otherwise i will keep riding a 26in and spend elsewhere.


You have your 650b bike already available for you in the Rawlands! Just what you are describing. Rigid, pretty much made for drop bars it looks as well.

www.rawlandcycles.com


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

MMcG said:


> You have your 650b bike already available for you in the Rawlands! Just what you are describing. Rigid, pretty much made for drop bars it looks as well.
> 
> www.rawlandcycles.com


i know but i am sure there is more than one way to do it right.


----------

