# High pivots



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

When Forbidden introduced their Druid high pivot bike three years ago, I thought, "OMG -- mountain bikes have finally truly become amazinger!"

That's right, I actually thought, 'amazinger.'

But what happened to high pivot bikes? Lots of bike companies jumped on the band wagon in the interim (and are still jumping on) but from my distant vantage point high pivots appear to be like oval chainrings -- some people swear by them and some people swear at them. They certainly haven't taken the marketplace over.

I have the impression that high pivots are great for shuttle runs because they soak up rough DH terrain better than anything. Meanwhile for climbing or popping, not so much. Maybe that's not accurate. Can't say -- I haven't ever ridden a high pivot frame.

So... ARE high pivot frames actually amazinger?

Or are they just another option, horses for courses and all that?

If you have a high pivot bike, what do you like about it? What do you dislike about it?
Would you buy another?
If you're considering buying a high pivot frame, what factors are influencing your decision?

Thanks!
=sParty


----------



## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

Grand total of one day on a high pivot DH bike rental. That rear end soaked up everything and was glued to the ground. Not remotely poppy. Took my capabilities up a notch for sure. It was also the worst climbing experience I've had in my life. Maybe 50 vertical feet and well under a minute, but it felt like it was sucking the life out of me on every pedal stroke.

Now of course it was a DH bike and they all have these characteristics. This one just seemed to have both more of the positives and negatives, but so hard to tell how much was the high pivot as I'm not very experienced with DH bikes.

PS: There was a recent thread on this very topic


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

goldsbar said:


> PS: There was a recent thread on this very topic


Oops... I must have missed that.
Sorry if I created a dupe thread.
=sParty


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Okay, you asked:

Having your rear wheel move back and out of the way on impact sounds really good ... on paper that is.

In reality, riding a high pivot on anything but the downs is akin to walking in dry sand: It's soft, it's forgiving, but good luck doing anything quick.

I have turned many frames over the years, usually I ride a frame for six to nine months before trying the next great thing. The same can be said of my experimentation with linkage forks; I am now retired from that game 

That said, I have only given up one frame up within a month: A high pivot Druid.

Like Goldsbar wrote, a high pivot sucks the life out of your riding.

I know, I am the outlier, all you Druid fans are gonna hate on me, but it happened and that's all I'm gonna say about that.


----------



## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

Sparticus said:


> Oops... I must have missed that.
> Sorry if I created a dupe thread.
> =sParty


I was just letting you know so you could look it up. I'm very curious myself to see what others say. Nurse Ben's substantial experience seemed to confirm my very limited experience. Would be good to hear from others that use these bikes for general trail riding.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

So is the best compromise a bit more vertical wheelpath rather than highly arced low pivot?


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

They don't seem super popular in the EWS either. Unless you're just winching straight up then plummeting straight down really steep trails, most people on a 170mm or less bike probably need to be able to sprint and pump the bike a decent bit.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'd only buy one for strictly downhill riding. I've read enough reports and even seen them in action to know they just pedal poorly..

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## JonJones (Feb 12, 2012)

I can give my perspective. I own two modern ones, a Dreadnought and a Highlander.

They're both excellent bikes and the descending really does need to be experienced; smooth, plush, composed goodness.
I've come off a 27.5 Trek Remedy and 29" Banshee Prime, both of which I loved.

The Forbidden Dreadnought is just a Fall Line missile, it loves gravity, speed and chunk.

The Deviate I have set up as a trail bike so they don't overlap.
It handles wonderfully and pedals well (they both do).

But, if you buy them thinking they are better than all other bikes you'll likely be disappointed.
Everything is a compromise - in my case it's climbing. It takes more effort and I'm slower. I've prioritised descending so it's something I'm happy with. I can't be surprised as they're both 150+mm FS bikes.
I also wanted longer or size specific rear ends which the Forbidden Dreadnought does exceptionally well.

Suspension set up really counts and it has taken time to nail both. But they really are special there. 
It takes time to get used to the ride feeling, especially on the Dreadnought.

To me it's perhaps a bit like Horst link, or dual link.
It doesn't define the bike as good or bad, just different, and even then one brand's take on it can differ from another.

If you're curious then try one. I find I really like them but would just as likely buy a different suspension system next time as long as it worked well and the geometry was sound for me.

In short, they're great but nothing is perfect.


----------



## JonJones (Feb 12, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'd only buy one for strictly downhill riding. I've read enough reports and even seen them in action to know they just pedal poorly..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


I'm not sure that's 100% the case.

Many will set the bike up for descending, heavier duty wheels and tyres, coil suspension, and this can make or break the climbing or pedal performance.

I put a lightweight set of wheels on my Highlander and noticed the difference, same with air vs coil. I really have tried a few combinations to get what I want out of it.
Set up really counts, and the drag is minimal but you do hear it.

I notice the climbing but don't put it all down to the suspension design.


----------



## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

It always comes back to the words of the brilliant Milton Friedman - "There is no such thing as a free lunch" - despite the ridiculous hype and aggrandizing ad copy in this industry

Maybe I'm a dumb old man, but I think the closest we are ever going to get to a free lunch is a well designed DW link. Ripmo comes to mind. The Ripmo lunch isn't free, but it's pretty heavily discounted.


----------



## McShred (Oct 4, 2021)

My Take... I own a Dreadnaught that's primarily used for general trail riding and fire-road climbs with gravity tracks down. Mix in a handful of shuttle / bike park days. Its basically my only bike and since getting it I haven't thought I wanted something else. The bike works well for long peddaly rides and works better for gravity fed laps. Trails I ride are usually a bit rougher, if I was focused on smooth singletrack this would be an overkill / wrong bike.

The comments that come up often and leave me scratching my head are about the poor pedaling. The Dreadnaught pedals wonderfully, the idler gives a great pedaling platform, its predictable, firm, the rear end stays planted without ever feeling like the suspension is sucking away my effort. Climbing is excellent, all the traction and good position on the bike.

You can also find comments about the ~2% drivetrain loss being very undesirable, however the general consensus on weight is it barely matters because a few pounds heavier is only ~2% of the total system weight and that might add up to an extra minute on an hour long climb. Often, these comments are made by the same people (or journalists)...

As has been noted, ALL bikes are compromises. High pivot bikes have theirs as well, slightly worse efficiency for slightly better rear suspension. If being the first to the top of every climb is your thing, than a high pivot bike probably isnt. But if you dont care about pace and like pedaling to the top of everything, having the traction to clear tough technical sections on the way, and then having the goods for the ride down they might be bikes worth considering.

The Dreadnaught took me about a half dozen rides to really adapt to it, things like body position, timing of jumps, pumping, etc. The growing wheelbase asks for slightly different rider input, and once figured out the bike works extremely well. For me I think there are more positives on the wheel of compromise.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Neko has talked about some of the advantages and disadvantages in some of his Frameworks videos. It's not so much about climbing as it is pumping, pedal kickback, etc.


----------



## DeoreDX (Jul 28, 2007)

My take: It is a suspension design chosen because it is a market differentiator used to get eyeballs on the product line and sell bikes, not because the manufacturer thinks it's the best suspension design.


----------



## JonJones (Feb 12, 2012)

BadgerOne said:


> It always comes back to the words of the brilliant Milton Friedman - "There is no such thing as a free lunch" - despite the ridiculous hype and aggrandizing ad copy in this industry
> 
> Maybe I'm a dumb old man, but I think the closest we are ever going to get to a free lunch is a well designed DW link. Ripmo comes to mind. The Ripmo lunch isn't free, but it's pretty heavily discounted.


A friend of mine had one and considered it to be peak bike. Not because he owned it, but since selling it and spending a fortune on another bike, he has yet to match or better it. 

He's owned and ridden more bikes than I could dream of, but even he stated that set up counts.

If you don't get the sag just right or some other aspect it'll ride terribly.

One thing I'll add is on the Dreadnought, if you stand and sprint it picks up its pace with real energy. It's not a mushy mess. It's one of the first things I noticed on it. As said before, it pedals really well. Just don't confuse it or any other HPP bike as a light trail bike.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

JonJones said:


> I'm not sure that's 100% the case.
> 
> Many will set the bike up for descending, heavier duty wheels and tyres, coil suspension, and this can make or break the climbing or pedal performance.
> 
> ...


But you also stated that HP is a compromise or pedaling performance. I've never ridden HP, but I must have read 25 reviews and they all conclude that pedaling performance is mediocre. 
I also have a friend that bought a Highlander and he got notably slower on that bike. On our trails that require a lot of pedaling. It's not that we pedal up a long slow boring road where it doesn't really matter, it's that to maintain the right speed you have to pedal for somewhat short periods of time often. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## JonJones (Feb 12, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> But you also stated that HP is a compromise or pedaling performance. I've never ridden HP, but I must have read 25 reviews and they all conclude that pedaling performance is mediocre.
> I also have a friend that bought a Highlander and he got notably slower on that bike. On our trails that require a lot of pedaling. It's not that we pedal up a long slow boring road where it doesn't really matter, it's that to maintain the right speed you have to pedal for somewhat short periods of time often.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


I'll try to explain it.
If I'm pedalling up fire roads or just uphill trails, sat seated and spinning, they're both slower. Fact. I've felt it and I can't deny it. If I want to keep up with my friends, it takes more energy. They don't bob or wallow and traction is excellent, but I just find it slower.

However, if I get out of the saddle and sprint, well then the Dreadnought in particular really gets going. It's not mushy and energy sapping. I've found the Highlander a little less spry doing the same.
I hope it doesn't sound contradictory.

I probably should build up my Prime again to really compare as that climbs exceptionally well.


----------



## JonJones (Feb 12, 2012)

Interestingly, I met a mate who bought the Norco Range. His friend was riding it at a rather pedalling focused trail network and both said it really required pedalling. More so than anything else he has (owns four bikes)

It was his view that it's for shuttle service / winch and plummet. it wasn't set up as a trail bike though, so he wasn't upset or surprised.


----------



## McShred (Oct 4, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> But you also stated that HP is a compromise or pedaling performance. I've never ridden HP, but I must have read 25 reviews and they all conclude that pedaling performance is mediocre.
> I also have a friend that bought a Highlander and he got notably slower on that bike. On our trails that require a lot of pedaling. It's not that we pedal up a long slow boring road where it doesn't really matter, it's that to maintain the right speed you have to pedal for somewhat short periods of time often.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk





JonJones said:


> I'll try to explain it.
> If I'm pedalling up fire roads or just uphill trails, sat seated and spinning, they're both slower. Fact. I've felt it and I can't deny it. If I want to keep up with my friends, it takes more energy. They don't bob or wallow and traction is excellent, but I just find it slower.
> 
> However, if I get out of the saddle and sprint, well then the Dreadnought in particular really gets going. It's not mushy and energy sapping. I've found the Highlander a little less spry doing the same.
> ...


I would maintain all day that the pedaling performance on the Dreadnaught is excellent, 100% it takes more energy to move at the same clip as a non high pivot (everything else equal). The pedaling is well isolated from the suspension, my effort moves the wheel not the shock. A constant ~2% loss from the idler is quickly forgotten about, where a poor pedaling bike that wallows away anytime you get on it is very noticeable.

Useless data point, comparing the dreadnaught to my previous stumpjumper on strava, climb times are incredibly consistent despite the extra 3 lbs and idler. My take is I have a climbing speed and adjust my output subconsciously.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

JonJones said:


> Interestingly, I met a mate who bought the Norco Range. His friend was riding it at a rather pedalling focused trail network and both said it really required pedalling. More so than anything else he has (owns four bikes)
> 
> It was his view that it's for shuttle service / winch and plummet. it wasn't set up as a trail bike though, so he wasn't upset or surprised.


That new Range is also a very portly bike.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Subscribed


----------



## phazedalx (Jun 22, 2007)

My druid feels great on rocky loose tech climbs. I can def see how it would be sluggish on a smoother climb/fire road. My EXT lockout takes care of that though


----------



## RadicalPugilism (Nov 24, 2020)

I loved my Druid. Traction for days, surprisingly capable for a 130 mm bike - but it'll remind you every once in a while that it's _still_ a 130 mm bike. I really clicked with it when I threw a coil in the rear, but I couldn't justify having a 36 pound bike with 130 mm of travel, riding in an area with lot of pedaling through undulating terrain. If I had the time/money to hunt for lighter components or if I had the descents to justify a heavy bike, I could have worked it out.

That said, I totally hope to pick up a Dreadnought once I leave Texas.


----------



## Thorquin Kiki (Jun 15, 2018)

I was a high pivot skeptic for trail bikes since the Druid came out. I like poppy bikes and they didn't seem to suit my preferences. That changed until I read some reports about the Kavenz VHP16 saying it was surprisingly poppy and playful despite the high pivot. Eventually I bought one and it's the first frame I've had in years that I'll probably keep more than a year.

The rear suspension is incredibly smooth with extremely good traction. There is dramatically less pedal kickback than my last frame (2021 Stumpjumper Evo). The bike is as poppy and playful as I could ask for in an enduro bike. Maybe not as poppy as an Evil Wreckoning but much more than a Specialized Enduro. The Kavenz is easier for me to ride faster on compared to the Stumpjumper Evo or Enduro.

I really enjoy the short chainstays and how the bike handles. The chainstay are 425mm and max out at 440mm which is a fair bit shorter than many other high pivot bikes in this class. Part of the bike's poppy nature might be due to the shock tune and how I run my suspension but that's the case with any bike.

The bike seems to climb similarly to my Stumpjumper Evo. My times on typical climbing trails are very similar with no notable loss in time. I have no complaints about how it climbs. 

One major difference with the Kavenz compared to most or maybe even all of the other high pivot trail bikes on the market is it has an adjustable idler chainline. Something that I think many high pivot bikes need. There is a spacer you can use to adjust the idler chainline from 49mm to 53mm. I'm running a 50.5mm chainline for the idler and chainring even though I'm using a boost hub. This straightens my chainline in climbing gears and results in a silent idler and probably more efficient climbing. In the descending gears I don't notice any difference regardless of chainline.


----------



## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

I can see the benefits of a HP on a DH bike. But I find the lengthening of the rear a bit off putting in turns on a trial bike. At high speeds its not as noticeable.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Thorquin Kiki said:


> I was a high pivot skeptic for trail bikes since the Druid came out. I like poppy bikes and they didn't seem to suit my preferences. That changed until I read some reports about the Kavenz VHP16 saying it was surprisingly poppy and playful despite the high pivot. Eventually I bought one and it's the first frame I've had in years that I'll probably keep more than a year.
> 
> The rear suspension is incredibly smooth with extremely good traction. There is dramatically less pedal kickback than my last frame (2021 Stumpjumper Evo). The bike is as poppy and playful as I could ask for in an enduro bike. Maybe not as poppy as an Evil Wreckoning but much more than a Specialized Enduro. The Kavenz is easier for me to ride faster on compared to the Stumpjumper Evo or Enduro.
> 
> ...


Cool looking bike, too! I wasn't familiar with this one. Good to hear you're happy with yours; I'd love to test ride one.








=sParty


----------



## electricdownhill805 (May 25, 2020)

Sparticus said:


> When Forbidden introduced their Druid high pivot bike three years ago, I thought, "OMG -- mountain bikes have finally truly become amazinger!"
> 
> That's right, I actually thought, 'amazinger.'
> 
> ...


They are amazing I love my 2022 specialized enduro if I could afford it I would get a demo 8 too


----------

