# E-bke article in Dirt Rag



## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

I like Dirt Rag. I'm a subscriber and a fan. The current issue (#179) has a big article on e-bikes, "Elephant on the Trail: the Great E-Bike Controversy," by Jeff Lockwood.

I haven't made up my mind what I think about e-bikes. But I thought the article sucked. This is the first time I've ever felt like Dirt Rag was trying to jam the corporate party line down my throat. The theme of the article is that people who oppose e-bikes are just like the ignorant fools who didn't want 29ers and front suspension.

Reading the article, I wasn't learning, I was just getting spun. "Aside from some vocal opponents of electric-assist mountain bikes" --unidentified, unquoted -- "the consensus seems to be that these forms of mountain bikes" -- spin -- "are coming and their momentum can't be stopped." But the only "consensus" apparent from the article is that companies hope they sell a shitload of them. I felt like I was reading a press release, and maybe I was since the author writes "for a variety of publications and companies in the bicycle industry."

C'mon, Dirt Rag, you're better than that.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

And "opporate" (p.48) is not okay in a magazine. Not even when the first sentence of your article makes fun of the "hilarious misspellings" of people who post online.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Whether we like it or not, this industry is going to pull "innovation" right out it's a$$ and pump out whatever the hell they think will sell. 29er, 650b, e-bikes... We're just getting started!


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

dgw2jr said:


> Whether we like it or not, this industry is going to pull "innovation" right out it's a$$ and pump out whatever the hell they think will sell. 29er, 650b, e-bikes... We're just getting started!


E-bikes are not bicycles, they are mopeds. Change the word "E-bike" to "moped" in those articles and see how it reads.

29er, 650B, hydraulic brakes, 1x11...these are all still bicycles, man-powered machines.


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## Slash5 (Nov 27, 2011)

Yep, maybe the motorcycle mags will start doing articles on bicycles.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I think a certain percentage of people are attracted to the idea of mountain biking but it's just too much work, or maybe they can't keep up with their friends. "E-bikes" are inferior to motorcycles, gasoline or electric, and sub-par bicycles in every respect except one- They circumvent laws restricting motor vehicles, both on and off-road.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Ailuropoda said:


> E-bikes are not bicycles, they are mopeds. Change the word "E-bike" to "moped" in those articles and see how it reads.
> 
> 29er, 650B, hydraulic brakes, 1x11...these are all still bicycles, man-powered machines.


I know this. But the industry is using "clever" marketing to make the device sound non-threatening and benign.


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## Zomby Woof (MCM700) (May 23, 2004)

I wonder just how well Mountain E-bikes are selling. I just can't see the point in buying one. We are biking for fitness.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

I'm not sure what to make of e-bikes personally. I can never see myself getting one for mountain biking but I always hate to say "never." Right now, if parks decided to ban e-bikes as being motorized cycles of a sort, I wouldn't argue against the ruling. 

Like others, I just don't see the point of assist when I'm out for exercise.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

E-biking is not mt biking, it is another form of entertainment, fitting between Moto and Mt Biking.

Bring it on just another toy in the box...
...maybe an electric powered high speed toilet with a rollbar is next

LOL


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

The whole concept of an e-mtb totally pisses me off. _Unless you're disabled_, you're just lazy and somewhat pathetic.

It will be a sad day, when I realize I'm being passed by an e-mtber.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

In a previous and involved thread on this topic there was a definite "earn your access" attitude from many mountain bikers. In addition there were presumptions about the motivations about why we ride, akin to Zomby Woof's recent contribution: "We are biking for fitness".

While I can understand those values they are hardly requirements for participation in our sport.

Just saying'...


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

Last big crash I had, I got mixed up with the bike during part of the event, and had a HUGE bruise that started half way up my thigh and eventually extended to half way down my calf. Don't know how much these things weigh, but I'd hate to have one of them land on me.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

Berkeley Mike said:


> ... they are hardly requirements for participation in our sport.


Whatever you would call what they are doing, it isn't the same sport as we are doing, if it can even be called a sport at all.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

As I said at the start, I'm undecided about e-bikes. I've never ridden one. I'm skeptical that it's a good idea to give unskilled riders the means to go fast on trails -- it's not like long smooth climbs are the only times to gun the motor. The resulting injuries and confrontations and trail-congestion may endanger trail access for all of us.

But my point in starting this thread wasn't to take a position on e-bikes, it was to express disappointment at Dirt Rag for publishing an industry spin-job instead of trusting their readers to draw their own conclusions if given facts and balance.


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## Furball the Mystery Cat (May 18, 2007)

OldManBike said:


> ... my point in starting this thread wasn't to take a position on e-bikes, it was to express disappointment at Dirt Rag for publishing an industry spin-job instead of trusting their readers to draw their own conclusions if given facts and balance.


That's why I prefer internet forums over magazines. When someone on a forum posts a spin-job, I get to reply and try to correct the spin.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

OldManBike said:


> But my point in starting this thread wasn't to take a position on e-bikes, it was to express disappointment at Dirt Rag for publishing an industry spin-job instead of trusting their readers to draw their own conclusions if given facts and balance.


You can't possibly be surprised that this thread would immediately become a discussion focusing on e-bikes on trails. This is the only possible outcome for this thread.


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## Zomby Woof (MCM700) (May 23, 2004)

NEPMTBA said:


> E-biking is not mt biking, it is another form of entertainment, fitting between Moto and Mt Biking.
> 
> Bring it on just another toy in the box...
> ...maybe an electric powered high speed toilet with a rollbar is next
> ...


Or just get one of these:


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Yeah. That's okay, I'm not the Thread Police, folks will say what they want to say. I was just trying to clarify what it was _I'd _wanted to say.


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

In our area the Wilderness Parks already have the efollowing:

"Use of motorized vehicles and equipment is prohibited."

I am pleased to see the word equipment and not just vehicle. Based on the potential liability to the Government, I imagine it would be difficult to ever see anything motorized on the trails.

I may agree to a special pass for a disabled person to use an e-bike that is limited to only certain trails. There is a paralyzed guy in our neighborhood that rides around using arm power, when I see him I am always thankful that I can get out and ride. It would be difficult for me to say he can't enjoy the off-road trail experience because he has to use an e-bike... especially if he wanted to arm wrestle me over it!

John


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Not that I am unsympathetic to the plight of the disabled, but am I the only one that thinks it a little odd that we can't expect them to go from halfway across a parking lot into a store but somehow they can manage a 50lb electric bicycle on steep, bumpy trails less than 3 feet wide with frequent steep drop-offs?

Also, these e-bikes are supposed to be assistive, meaning the rider will still be required to put in some effort. I can't see any legitimately disabled person putting out the watts required to make it up steep, rough singletrack even with the little boost they get from the motor. Unless they modify it so they don't have to put in any effort, a whole other can o' worms.


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## BobbyWilliams (Aug 3, 2004)

Mookie said:


> You can't possibly be surprised that this thread would immediately become a discussion focusing on e-bikes on trails. This is the only possible outcome for this thread.


The real question is what size wheels are these e-bikes coming with.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

Wagon wheels, obviously. A 50 pound ebike isn't flickable anyway, so there is no advantage to smaller wheels.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

AllMountin' said:


> Wagon wheels, obviously. A 50 pound ebike isn't flickable anyway, so there is no advantage to smaller wheels.


Wagon wheels aren't strong enough to handle all those ponies! BRAAAP!


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Ladmo said:


> Whatever you would call what they are doing, it isn't the same sport as we are doing, if it can even be called a sport at all.


I'm also not certain the wheeled access need to qualify as a sport to be valid. It could simply be done for pleasure.

Golf, in my book, is not a sport especially when compared to mountain biking when done as a sport.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I'm also not certain the wheeled access need to qualify as a sport to be valid. It could simply be done for pleasure.
> 
> Golf, in my book, is not a sport especially when compared to mountain biking when done as a sport.


Golf, like NASCAR, is definitely not a sport.


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## mrmas (Jan 18, 2010)

Ailuropoda said:


> E-bikes are not bicycles, they are mopeds. Change the word "E-bike" to "moped" in those articles and see how it reads.
> 
> 29er, 650B, hydraulic brakes, 1x11...these are all still bicycles, man-powered machines.


Exactly! There is already a name for this contraption.

I am pretty aggravated about this. I am not a hater of new tech, choices in wheel sizes, etc. But these moped articles in bike mags really rub be the wrong way. If they even warranted mentioning in Dirt Rag or MTB Action it should be to set the record straight of what they really are.......a Moped...not a bicycle! Hey, if they think anyone wants to read about these, maybe they can start a periodical called "Scooter Action".


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## Jwiffle (Jan 26, 2004)

Everyone is hating on ebikes, but has anyone actually seen an ebike on the trail? I haven't, and doubt I will. So it's practically a non-issue. People who buy ebikes buy the cruisers designed for noodling around town or the boardwalk. Companies may make MTB ebikes, I just don't ever see them catching on, at least around my parts.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Great... now I have a lifetime subscription to a moped rag.


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

dgw2jr said:


> Golf, like NASCAR, is definitely not a sport.


... that's just ignorant. If you're basing it on whether it requires an athlete, Golf, and all but two baseball positions, aren't sports, professional auto racing athletes are in better shape than 90% of this forum.

I have little interest in an eBike because they're a bad commuting alternative, power density of batteries mean they're lame bikes, but I can see where they might have at least one interesting application - battery powered shuttle running for riders that only care about downhill, but on trails that don't work for typical shuttle setups, so that might open some new ground for a few well-heeled riders on basically converted Enduro rigs. If the ultimate goal is still to ride a bike, there is a limited application, even if it's not what they'll be primarily used/marketed for.

I DO want to see the first hipster-ready eBike fixie - that should be hilarious.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Jwiffle said:


> Everyone is hating on ebikes, but has anyone actually seen an ebike on the trail? I haven't, and doubt I will. So it's practically a non-issue. People who buy ebikes buy the cruisers designed for noodling around town or the boardwalk. Companies may make MTB ebikes, I just don't ever see them catching on, at least around my parts.


There have been plenty of threads popping up lately discussing and defending ebikes on trails. So people are definitely thinking about it. I haven't seen one on the trail yet and I would like it to stay that way.

What I see happening is that folks who would never otherwise ride a bike on singletrack catching wind of this possibility. I could see it becoming at least somewhat popular among users like this on certain trails.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

my state laws include ebikes as "motorized vehicles". as far as actual enforcement goes, they sorta look the other way, even when it comes to gasoline-powered scooters in bike lanes. 

I have ridden a couple e-assist bikes and I'd use one as a commuter if I had the dough, but I'd never take one anywhere near a mtb trail. They are heavy SOB's and I'm not sure that they're doing any more than pulling the extra weight of the battery/motor. They're DEFINITELY not going to be resulting in crowds of disabled folks on mtb trails. Drop one down a ravine and you'll never get it back without a winch or a come-along.


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## that guy again (Oct 6, 2006)

Issue #179: The great e-bike controversy | Dirt Rag


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Ailuropoda said:


> E-bikes are not bicycles, they are mopeds. Change the word "E-bike" to "moped" in those articles and see how it reads.
> 
> 29er, 650B, hydraulic brakes, 1x11...these are all still bicycles, man-powered machines.


I have similar thought. E-bikes have motors and that makes them different. Over 100 years ago some one had the idea of putting a motor on bicycle and he created the first MOTORCYCLE.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks for the reminder, just downloaded the issue yesterday and want to read that article.

I am not opposed to it at all. Commuting could be really useful, and trail use could be a blast. If you had a etrail bike and one of those google driver less cars, think of how many shuttle runs you could do in a day on certain trails. Maybe you get 4-5 before the battery craps out, whereas old school you kille yourself logistically just for one.

But just because Europe loves it doesn't mean it will be geat here, Europe also champions athletes that fake injuries over competing and they have a general club-med mentality.

Still, as electric vehicles of all types come into the transportation sector here, attitudes on these will change. We'll be able to poach, in and out, before the sierra club can have a collective bowel movement.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Okay, so I'm hoping that I have some level of rep around these parts as someone who, (besides being that guy that wants everyone on a Lefty) doesn't have an agenda, or a bad attitude....

I'm guessing, just based on the responses above, that none of you have ever ridden one. Just like, BITD, when 29ers, or suspension, came onto the scene. I remember guys getting all bent about "HTFU, this is an MTB not a motocross bike, I don't need suspension, MY ARMS are the suspension."

How'd that work out for ya fellas? Unless you're one of these vegan, full rigid, SS zealots, chances are, you have a sus fork on your bike now. 

I sounded exactly like you. They're cheating. Why would I want one? I'm out for a work out, yada yada yada. 

Then the BionX rep dropped off the demo Pugsley at the shop for a few weeks, and I promptly fell in love. 

It adds 15 lbs to the bike. So, think full DH rig weight. Mostly rear biased, so relearning log-overs was humorous shall we say...

A moped it is not, at all, and yes, I thought the same exact thing in that regard too. 

You are required to put in effort. A lot. And if you don't, or you get tired, the bike laughs at your weakness, and proves how wimpy your puny little body is, by shutting down all assistance midway up a climb as your power output drops a bit. You find yourself on the pedals your 32x14, trying with all your might just not to go backwards.

Keep up the hard effort till your lungs blow out your chest, and you are rewarded with the fastest climb up hill X you've ever had, and a bunch of your buddies without the assist, coming up 5 minutes behind you shooting nasty looks at you.

It provides a proportionate level of assist to how much output you're giving. You soft pedal, or even just spin along the trail, you get little to nothing. You put more into the pedals, like you're trying to get somewhere fast, and up it comes, like a subtle "bloom" of tail wind at your back. Drop effort back, and it dies out pretty quickly. It simply amplifies what you already have. 

All good fun. Should it be your only bike? Of course not. Are they kick ass for commuting, absolutely. This model has about a 65 mile range on low output, plenty of run time to get to work and back. Carefully used, I can get a 2 hour ride in the woods in, just fine. 

Now where it excels is during the winter, as I have one built up on a Moonlander. I am now the trail groomer any time we get a good dump of snow. Previously, trails cut would be all zig zag like, since the effort to push through deep heavy snow, led to some bar wiggling as you went. Now, I punch a nice straight line, and everyone behind, just adds to it by slightly widening as they come through. End result is a nice straight singletrack that's far more enjoyable to ride, than the wavy one that you washed out constantly on when you went just a touch too wide in a wave.

I encounter the attitude all the time at the shop. We talk, I hear it, but it's like cheating, it's a moped, it's a silent motorcycle, etc. I ask if they want to try it, and just like me, they come back with a bemused expression, scratching their heads, and all agree, no, it's not cheating, not at all. It's totally different than what your brain tells you it will be, and yes, one hell of a grin factory. 

It's not cheating, you're just going faster. It's the best way I can put it.

Don't buy one, but don't be a hater until you have butt time on one, and actually know what you're talking about.

It's another way to play, another tool in the box, another toy in the shed. Do I use it every ride? Of course not. Just like my fatbike, or my FS, or my 29er HT, each one gets a ride now and then. 

But I also let buddies borrow it if they are injured and coming back out for a ride after a few weeks off, and to a person, they all grin like idiots as they proceed to crush the rest of us, and are sad to have to give it back.....


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## smithcreek (Nov 27, 2012)

Mendon, is there no way to "adjust" the amount of assist? I find it hard to believe that it can't be set to provide more assistance with less rider effort. The one commuter type e-bike I tried had a shocking amount of power to effort ratio. I can't see a company putting out a product that would strand a customer half way up a hill when the whole reason the customer bought it was to get him to the top. Sounds like a good way to have a load of very angry customers. If everyone that buys one had your view on how and where they should be used I don't think there would be many problems, but I'm afraid you and your "reasonable" attitude will be in the minority.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

@ smithcreek-

Yep, absolutely. I can only speak for the BionX system, but I'm pretty sure the Bosch is similar (but requires a dedicated frame built for it, the BionX is simply a rear wheel build.

With mine, you have four levels of assist. Level 1 feels like almost nothing. Level 4 is where I let folks test ride it, and it elicits whoops, giggles, motocross vocalizations, etc. 

It also has 4 levels of regenerative riding which increases effort required, but charges the battery (take that, folks who say it's cheating, how about a training enhancer instead!) Also has regenerative braking. The regen mode also works as an engine brake on long descents. 

Personally, I find anything higher than level 2 to be "pushy" in the corners and is rather disconcerting since you don't have control over the level of assist once it engages, it simply pushes, then fades once pedal forces is no longer consistent. I save the higher levels for the occasional hill when I feel like demoralizing my buddies (who now all want one too....)

And yes, the power does cut out. It works with a torque sensor. You apply enough to trigger it, the power blooms up for perhaps 10 seconds, then fades if you don't maintain that torque level. 

All of which points up why folks need to try before dismissing. I will say it again, they are NOTHING like what I was expecting, at all.


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## Zomby Woof (MCM700) (May 23, 2004)

Have a look at this motorized bike, gas, not electric.
Motoped Survival Edition


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## dirtdawg21892 (Jul 20, 2009)

personally i have no interest in an electric mtb, but i must say that like MendonCycleSmith I have also had some saddle time on a friend's BioniX equipped commuter bike. never took it in the dirt, but i can say that i wouldn't have any issue with those on the trail. the thing about the BioniX is that it only adds to the Effort that you are putting out. they simply speed you up and increase your range. 
my only beef with the concept of e-bikes is really trail erosion, because electric motors have a lot of torque and could easily throw a roost and rut out the climbs pretty badly. i don't think the BioniX system would do that, but if it was simply a pedal bike with a throttle, like other e-bikes i have seen, it could be a very real problem. 
i know that it's splitting hairs and getting into a grey area, but maybe the regulation could ban throtles and allow the strictly 'assistive' variety.


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## dirtdawg21892 (Jul 20, 2009)

i'm just worried about this kinda thing.
Stealth Electric Bomber, A Two Wheeled Identity Crisis | PlugBike.com


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> ...
> Personally, I find anything higher than level 2 to be "pushy" in the corners and is rather disconcerting since you don't have control over the level of assist once it engages, it simply pushes, then fades once pedal forces is no longer consistent. I save the higher levels for the occasional hill when I feel like demoralizing my buddies (who now all want one too....)


This is like having a cucumber in your pants that everyone knows about but are still jealous of so they all want a cucumber to put in their pants too.

You made that climb with a handicap. I can't see how that is demoralizing at all.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

Wouldn't work. Nobody is going to be out on the trail to dyno the power output or inspect your bike for throttle linkages. You accept one; you accept all. 

Mendon, your report seems very contradictory. You reference motocross grins, and pushing through corners, yet suggest it's nothing like a motorbike. 

You can PR your climbs and drop all your friends on a 50 pound fatbike, but it's not cheating? 

I'm trying to imagine this on a lighter, skinnier tired bike, not roosting it's way up a steep hill. But I'm not really getting there. Are you suggesting that these motorized bikes be allowed on non moto trails because a small sample of bikers think it's fun?


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

My experiences are just that, mine.

AllMountin', you reference PR's? You're already thinking too competitively for my way of doing things. I've never "trained" a day in my life, or tracked my "performance", I refuse to race, I eat and drink as I choose, ride because it's fun, and that's that. It's only cheating if someone is winning something and you used something others didn't. Same thing could be said for dual suspension vs fully rigid in a race, slippery slope....

The BionX has no power to roost out, rip trail, etc. Limited to 20 MPH (beyond which, it's all on you), fast guys can still out pace if they so choose. I cant say anything about the rest of them, no idea. 

Should ones that have the ability to spin tires in dirt be allowed? I don't think so, no. 

To get what I mean by pushy in corners, you'd have to ride one. You have no throttle. No ramp up or down control. It just senses the requisite torque, and gives you a boost for a few seconds, longer if said level of torque is maintained.

To have any motocross feel, it'd need a throttle that you could control. 

I've actually never been a MX guy, all that gas, mechanical crap to screw with, weight, complexity, noise, constant upkeep, etc is of little interest to me. 

It is nothing like a motorbike, not even close. Does it have a different fun factor than a traditional bike? Sure. Just as a 6" 29er trail bike is different fun than a 26" rigid. 

Politely? Ride one so you can understand the nuances, and get back to *us*.

DGW, you'd need to understand our group dynamics. No egos, no STRAVA screamers, no racer boyz. Just a good bunch of guys tossing some smack because someone in the group smoked them on a climb that we'd normally all finish in similar time. Is it cheating at that point? Can't really say it is since they all know how you did it and we weren't trying to win anything anyway.


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## Zomby Woof (MCM700) (May 23, 2004)

tehllama said:


> ... that's just ignorant. If you're basing it on whether it requires an athlete, Golf, and all but two baseball positions, aren't sports, professional auto racing athletes are in better shape than 90% of this forum.
> 
> I have little interest in an eBike because they're a bad commuting alternative, power density of batteries mean they're lame bikes, but I can see where they might have at least one interesting application - battery powered shuttle running for riders that only care about downhill, but on trails that don't work for typical shuttle setups, so that might open some new ground for a few well-heeled riders on basically converted Enduro rigs. If the ultimate goal is still to ride a bike, there is a limited application, even if it's not what they'll be primarily used/marketed for.
> 
> I DO want to see the first hipster-ready eBike fixie - that should be hilarious.


I always liked this quote from Ernest Hemingway:
*"There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games."*


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

smithcreek said:


> Mendon, is there no way to "adjust" the amount of assist? I find it hard to believe that it can't be set to provide more assistance with less rider effort. The one commuter type e-bike I tried had a shocking amount of power to effort ratio. I can't see a company putting out a product that would strand a customer half way up a hill when the whole reason the customer bought it was to get him to the top. Sounds like a good way to have a load of very angry customers. If everyone that buys one had your view on how and where they should be used I don't think there would be many problems, but I'm afraid you and your "reasonable" attitude will be in the minority.


My thoughts exactly, these electric "assist" bikes are nothing more than a foot in the door.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

A motor is a motor. How it applies power is merely tuning. Some can be create to purely "assist" and other can drive all on their own. This is just like Hybrid cars. Some systems add a little power only when the gas motor is going. Others can drive 30 miles at 30mph on electric only. Some can do both. However they are all hybrid power and since the technology is still rather new they are all experimenting with how best to integrate the technology such that the consumer will like it. Consumers are learning now how hybrids can be used and what they want from them and time most will probably settle on 1-2 types of integration/power delivery. 

E-bikes will be the same. A big variation in how the electric power is delivered as riders learn how they want that power delivered as it will change the user experience. Right now riders are familiar traditional gas powered motorcycles/mopeds and pedal powered bikes, but not with e-bikes. I suspect the manufactures will be looking to create a market for these bikes and looking to separate themselves from what is already out there in some way. Some systems will work and others will be commercial failures. 

Bottomline however is that all have motors and are fundamentally different from a pedal powered machine. They could evolved in electric motorcross bikes with 100hp or be just a 1hp pedal assist. Even then 1 hp is alot of assist given that 1 hp = 745 watts and people (even pros) can't sustain 750 watt power output for more than a very very short time. Most can't do it at all.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

All the county parks around here have a 10 mph speed limit.....So I could see these becoming an issue in the flatter areas.

We also have a very large equestrian community....so lots of horses on the trails.....hence the 10 mph speed limit.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

mtnbikej said:


> All the county parks around here have a 10 mph speed limit.....So I could see these becoming an issue in the flatter areas.
> 
> We also have a very large equestrian community....so lots of horses on the trails.....hence the 10 mph speed limit.


hmm 10 mph is total BS I am sorry to say. Unless there is some pretty darn good tech there IMHO that area is pointless to ride at. I am no speed guy, but 10-20 mph is pretty common speed on most trails not even trying hard. Even when I have rides that only average 7mph there are places that get to 15 mph with ease.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

What the ebikes really mean is that trail use regulations need to prohibit motorized use. I believe most purpose built mtb trails prohibit motorized use. For trails that allow motorized use, I suppose an ebike is preferable to a motorcycle in terms of noise, odor, and tread damage.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

Summarizing the article in Dirt Rag, mountain bikers that are against electric assist mountain bikes, "have a potent combination of delicate egos, and well-trained bodies", and the arguments these people make against e-assist mountain bikes "can boil the blood of even the most level-headed, stable person". At least the author didn't pretend he has no bias, but I'm not sure what Dirt Rag thought they had to gain from running this piece. Just so happens I recently received my renewal notice from Dirt Rag. Not sure if I'm sending it back.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Okay, so I'm hoping that I have some level of rep around these parts as someone who, (besides being that guy that wants everyone on a Lefty) doesn't have an agenda, or a bad attitude....etc.


I'm glad you are enjoying your moped.

But why are you posting on a mountain bike forum?


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> ....Keep up the hard effort till your lungs blow out your chest, and you are rewarded with the fastest climb up hill X you've ever had, and a bunch of your buddies without the assist, coming up 5 minutes behind you shooting nasty looks at you...


I once rented a moped in Greece. Yes, like you I had to work the hills a little. It was pretty cool.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> My experiences are just that, mine.
> 
> AllMountin', you reference PR's? You're already thinking too competitively for my way of doing things. I've never "trained" a day in my life, or tracked my "performance", I refuse to race, I eat and drink as I choose, ride because it's fun, and that's that. It's only cheating if someone is winning something and you used something others didn't. Same thing could be said for dual suspension vs fully rigid in a race, slippery slope....
> 
> ...


No egos involved. I am not particularly fast being an average rider at best but 20 MPH? That's pretty fast on single track. I don't care where you are. So to say, nonchalantly, that "beyond 20 MPH it's all you" is deceptive. If you're going 20 MPH on the flats and shallow uphill stretches you are tearing along at an olympic pace...those are road riding speeds and you are a hazard to other riders.

And, I'm really not competitive and except for a couple of times a week with my girlfriend I usually ride alone...but what kind of smack are your friends tossing?

"Hey, you cheated?"

Well of course you did, for the purposes of talking smack anyway. There's really nothing there that is interesting or humerus to talk smack about. It would be like me being passed going up a hill by a motorcyclist, encountering him at the top of the hill taking a smoke break, and ribbing him good-humoredly because he beat me up the hill.

"Dude, I'm on a motorcycle."


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Ladmo said:


> Summarizing the article in Dirt Rag, mountain bikers that are against electric assist mountain bikes, "have a potent combination of delicate egos, and well-trained bodies", and the arguments these people make against e-assist mountain bikes "can boil the blood of even the most level-headed, stable person". At least the author didn't pretend he has no bias, but I'm not sure what Dirt Rag thought they had to gain from running this piece.


Exactly.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

that guy again said:


> Issue #179: The great e-bike controversy | Dirt Rag


Editor Guy says critics of the article "fail[] to realize that covering the news does not necessarily mean we're in favor of it." Editor Guy fails to realize that the piece he ran wasn't coverage, it was spin.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

NEPMTBA said:


> E-biking is not mt biking, it is another form of entertainment, fitting between Moto and Mt Biking.
> 
> Bring it on just another toy in the box...
> ...maybe an electric powered high speed toilet with a rollbar is next


lol, whenever they pass me my first reaction is holly cow that dude is in shape followed a second later by that dude is cheating. In sf where i live lots of people commute on them and i guess it makes that more entertaining for them which is a good thing


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## Gregon2wheels (Jan 17, 2013)

Re: the article. Thought it was kind of pointless. It expressed concerns unsupported by any facts or data. The one good point was that e-bikes might work really well at bike parks.

Re: the e-bike haters. I have a real problem when someone complains that an idea might make trails more crowded. This is absolutely the wrong attitude. We need more people active and we need more people involved in our activity. More people out on the trails in this country would be a good thing. I do agree with the concern that e-bikes might let somebody get too deep into the backwoods. This will probably happen because it already happens to 4 wheelers and runners and pedal cyclists now. So this is nothing new.

Re: more environmental impact. So study it. The Sierra Club used this against us for years and now we're going to use it against e-bikes without any proof? That's hypocrisy.

Re: moped. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I see a gas-powered moped as very different than an e-bike. Less and more centralized pollution. Quieter. Light weight. Better contained hazardous materials.

Re: off-roading on a motor-equipped 2 wheeler. Anyone who thinks that riding off-road on a motorized two wheeler is not a workout has never done it. It's slightly aerobic (and a lot less than mountain biking) but a much harder strength workout than any mountain bike ride I've ever done. Nothing like trying to handle a 200 pound machine (or 300 like my dual sport) up a muddy grade too steep for me to pedal to get a workout.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Gregon2wheels said:


> Re: .......


Well put.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

A motorcycle that you also can pedal is not a new idea. Its been around for ages. Like the Solex Knallert


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Not something I have to worry about in my area... local ordinance is already written to prohibit their use. It reads as follows "The designated bicycle trails shall be used only by pedestrians and bicycles and other vehicles propelled by human power.".. Its punishable as a misdemeanor.. an arrestable offense.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Gregon2wheels said:


> Re: off-roading on a motor-equipped 2 wheeler. Anyone who thinks that riding off-road on a motorized two wheeler is not a workout has never done it. It's slightly aerobic (and a lot less than mountain biking) but a much harder strength workout than any mountain bike ride I've ever done. Nothing like trying to handle a 200 pound machine (or 300 like my dual sport) up a muddy grade too steep for me to pedal to get a workout.


Most single track trails are not designed for motorcycles so riding a 200-pound machine along them is not challenging or difficult.  I'm not saying there is no place for motorized vehicles in the woods, just not on mountain bike trails.

There are multi-use trails all over where I live, in fact, there is a good bit more of it than there is single track so why you need to take your moped on the mountain bike trails is not entirely clear.

Additionally, nobody is hating on e-bikes and we are not luddites. I embrace cycling technological advances. But putting a motor on a bicycle is not a technological advance.


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## 2obscura (Jan 9, 2014)

car bone said:


> A motorcycle that you also can pedal is not a new idea. Its been around for ages. Like the Solex Knallert
> 
> View attachment 914377


This was my first thought too. I remember an old Vespa model that was similar. Difference was you had to pedal it before the centrifugal clutch kicked in. It was the human helping the lazy motor get up to speed instead of the other way around.

I started riding motocycles at age 4 and mountain biking around 10. When Saturday morning hits I have to decide if I want too pedal on tight single track or twist a throttle to go throw roost and haul ass ( which some ebike mtb models will do) each weekend. Each has its appropriate place and purpose that fills a need for a certain excitement and challenge.

When I read the article my first thought was, it is just a regurgitated reinvented moped. With a twist in marketing to sound more human driven than mechanical. All the ebike MTB seems to do is fill a gap for those too lazy pedal, and to scared to grab a handful of throttle on a motorcycle.

Given the chance for people to ride ebikes on un motorized vehicle only trails, is a accident waiting to happen. it will only be a matter of time before a gear head like myself starts to tweak some of the electronics and so on too have power that rivals a Small MX bike. That's when the trail gets rutted and hikers and bikers alike are getting run over and roosted.

I hope to never see one on my local trails. They are more than welcome to come play at the MX track and trails where a motorized vehicle is allowed.


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## Gregon2wheels (Jan 17, 2013)

SandSpur said:


> Not something I have to worry about in my area... local ordinance is already written to prohibit their use. It reads as follows "The designated bicycle trails shall be used only by pedestrians and bicycles and other vehicles propelled by human power.".. Its punishable as a misdemeanor.. an arrestable offense.


E-bikes are propelled by human power - they have pedals and don't require the e-assist (and don't have great range e-assist only). This is an understandable concern of "pure" mountain bikers that is expressed in the article since the general public will not differentiate between e-bikes and mountain bikes. It's as bad as mountain bikers being banned from all Wilderness Area so the Sierra Club and other groups try to designate more and more forest area as Wilderness.



> Most single track trails are not designed for motorcycles so riding a 200-pound machine along them is not challenging or difficult. I'm not saying there is no place for motorized vehicles in the woods, just not on mountain bike trails.
> 
> There are multi-use trails all over where I live, in fact, there is a good bit more of it than there is single track so why you need to take your moped on the mountain bike trails is not entirely clear.


Don't lump motorcycles in with 4 wheelers - they are very different beasts. Motorcycles and mountain bikes can coexist on some single track - the off-road area in Cullman AL is an example of this.

There is some singletrack that is robust enough to handle a 200 lb motorcycle with a 200 lb rider. I would never suggest motorcycles and mountain bikes should coexist everywhere.

With e-bikes coming, there needs to be consideration of a new designation of trails that can handle e-bikes as well as mountain bikes. Just like there are primitive trails and heavily engineered flow trails. Just like there are some trails that need to be restricted to any mountain bikers. That is asking a lot of land managers, but if the people are coming, better than shut the trails down to everyone but hikers.



> Additionally, nobody is hating on e-bikes and we are not luddites. I embrace cycling technological advances. But putting a motor on a bicycle is not a technological advance.


The article quotes numerous internet posts hating e-bikes. Here we have:
"The whole concept of an e-mtb totally pisses me off. Unless you're disabled, you're just lazy and somewhat pathetic."
"Hey, if they think anyone wants to read about these, maybe they can start a periodical called "Scooter Action"."


> "Use of motorized vehicles and equipment is prohibited."
> 
> I am pleased to see the word equipment and not just vehicle.


Federal Wilderness areas prohibit _mechanized_ travel including mountain bikes. And there are groups like the Sierra Club constantly petitioning for more Federal Wilderness areas.
As a motorcyclist (mostly road and these days mostly just commuting) and a bicyclist, I'm saddened to see an us v. them attitude when we're all on two wheels.


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## Furball the Mystery Cat (May 18, 2007)

I don't want an E-bike. I like exercise. I like the sense of accomplishment I get from pedaling to the tops of big mountains using only my own energy.



MendonCycleSmith said:


> Keep up the hard effort till your lungs blow out your chest, and you are rewarded with the fastest climb up hill X you've ever had, and a bunch of your buddies without the assist, coming up 5 minutes behind you shooting nasty looks at you....


I climb faster than most of the people I ride with, but I've never had anyone give me dirty looks for blowing past them on climbs and beating them by 10 - 20 minutes.

That being said, I'm not sure if I have a right to try to prevent other people from riding E-bikes. I remember when mountainbikes were new to the trails and some of the established trail users tried to prevent us from riding in their mountains. Now mountainbikes are accepted in most places, and some of us are trying to restrict E-bikes for the same reasons that hikers and horse riders wanted to restrict mountainbikers.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Furball the Mystery Cat said:


> I don't want an E-bike. I like exercise. I like the sense of accomplishment I get from pedaling to the tops of big mountains using only my own energy.
> 
> I climb faster than most of the people I ride with, but I've never had anyone give me dirty looks for blowing past them on climbs and beating them by 10 - 20 minutes.
> 
> That being said, I'm not sure if I have a right to try to prevent other people from riding E-bikes. I remember when mountainbikes were new to the trails and some of the established trail users tried to prevent us from riding in their mountains. Now mountainbikes are accepted in most places, and some of us are trying to restrict E-bikes for the same reasons that hikers and horse riders wanted to restrict mountainbikers.


To each their own, indeed.

I too, enjoy the fitness I get from riding under my own steam and 99% of the riding I so, is just that. Anyone else have a recreational toy they enjoy sometimes? There you go.

I'd look at someone who has an E-bike as their only off road bike, with a large degree of skepticism, unless they literally couldn't get out otherwise, and it allowed them some access to the peace and solitude the woods can provide.

As a toy in my quiver though it's a blast.

Sounds like your ride group is as accepting and mellow as mine, very cool. The dirty looks are surrounded by grins, it's all good and friendly, not sure why so many are focused on that bit that I mentioned while seemingly missing the important fact that these are not motocross bikes, mopeds, etc, not by a long shot.

Can they become that? Sure, and that's why planning and regulation and education all matter.

It's been bugging me that so many of "us" as the new kids on the block in the user groups of the woods, are bent on stopping another user group, yet will so vocally complain about equestrians, the Sierra Club, whomever, that is denying them access.

Don't be the type of group you detest. Find a way to allow users to enjoy the woods (planning, regulation and education are so critical). Banning doesn't work well, never has, just makes us vs them enemies out of those who by all accounts, should be friends.....


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Gregon2wheels said:


> E-bikes are propelled by human power - they have pedals and don't require the e-assist (and don't have great range e-assist only). This is an understandable concern of "pure" mountain bikers that is expressed in the article since the general public will not differentiate between e-bikes and mountain bikes. It's as bad as mountain bikers being banned from all Wilderness Area so the Sierra Club and other groups try to designate more and more forest area as Wilderness.
> 
> Don't lump motorcycles in with 4 wheelers - they are very different beasts. Motorcycles and mountain bikes can coexist on some single track - the off-road area in Cullman AL is an example of this.
> 
> ...


We all know you signed up on this site a few months back with the sole intent of pushing your ebike agenda on everyone here, your firsts posted in another ebike thread when you first joined.

yes, ebikes can be solely powered by human power.. except when they arent being powered by human power. Ive seen electronic assist bicycles at speeds of almost 40mph without any human assist and on flat ground...


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Remember, the more people that get these, the more elitist we can be.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

SandSpur said:


> Ive seen electronic assist bicycles at speeds of almost 40mph without any human assist and on flat ground...


I won't dispute what you've seen, but did you have a radar gun? Musta been a heck of a downhill though! 

Curious though, because any E-bike in the US is limited to 20 mph.

Faster than that and it needs insurance, registration etc.

A few "personal" bikes from the Euro market were around with company demo trucks like Specialized, but weren't ever sold in the US, and even those are limited to 30 mph for that market.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Here in MA, most of the mt biking is in designated areas that do not allow motorized vehicles. An E-bike has a motor, not allowed. I picked one up at a store the other day, VERY heavy. Would love to see some published weights. Much of our singletrack here is very technical, can't imagine more weight would be and advantage. I think there will be some big battles brewing.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Furball the Mystery Cat said:


> I'm not sure if I have a right to try to prevent other people from riding E-bikes. I remember when mountainbikes were new to the trails and some of the established trail users tried to prevent us from riding in their mountains. Now mountainbikes are accepted in most places, and some of us are trying to restrict E-bikes for the same reasons that hikers and horse riders wanted to restrict mountainbikers.


Yeah, good point. But the issue isn't just whether we should fight to prevent ebikes, it's whether we should sign up to fight _for _them. The president of one of the companies was quoted in the article thus: "*We are hoping that we can get IMBA's help* to promote electric-assist bikes and all of the places that electric-assist bikes can be legally used today, and then, as the category is better understood, begin to work on broader access in areas that make sense."


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

SandSpur said:


> We all know you signed up on this site a few months back with the sole intent of pushing your ebike agenda on everyone here, your firsts posted in another ebike thread when you first joined.


If the guy has a financial stake in all this that he's not disclosing, that's one thing. But if he's just another guy who posts about an issue he cares about, what's the issue?


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

There are 2 separate issues. Trail access, and e-bikes.

We have to consider it separately. We are losing trail access because people don't like mountain bikers, and there are not enough of us to fight the issues. Heck horses do more damage to the trails than mountain bikes. To the city officials when they hear mountain bike they think "red bull rampage", well really, I don't think they care, they just like the power. 

We don't have the numbers of riders to effectively make the difference. It's not cycling it's just mountain biking. There are plenty of critical masses that causing trouble in every big cities in the world and no one has the nuts to put a stop to it. 

Pedaling assist e-bikes is pretty awesome and would probably help growing the sport. As right now the admission price to a fun thrilling descend on a mildly slope fireroad is the price of the pedaling or push the bike up that trail. If we can find the way to reduce the effort in half we will have more people enjoying the sport. 

In general many of the trail damages especially in technical sections caused by riders that has less skill, and physical ability, usually on a slow tech climb, they skid and make all kinds of marks, if they can generate a bit more momentum they can clean the section without much marking on the trails.

It would also end or reduce the price of a mid to high end mountain bikes, as electronics are cheaper than light weight materials and construction anyday. Now everyone can have a DH bike that climb like a 15 lbs XC race bikes that built to withstand the abuse. The price would come down to close to entry level bike price we have now.

Sadly, the people who puts up the most resistance is the mountain bikers, we have resisted many good things from Aluminum, Disc break, Dropper posts, 650b, 5.10, etc. The more people enjoy our exclusive sports the more we can enjoy it too.:thumbsup:


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

mimi1885 said:


> There are 2 separate issues. Trail access, and e-bikes.
> 
> We have to consider it separately. We are losing trail access because people don't like mountain bikers, and there are not enough of us to fight the issues. Heck horses do more damage to the trails than mountain bikes. To the city officials when they hear mountain bike they think "red bull rampage", well really, I don't think they care, they just like the power.
> 
> ...


Putting a motor on a bicycle is not the same thing as changing a wheel size or adopting disc brakes. Likewise, riding what is functionally an electric moped is not part of the sport of mountain biking and will do nothing to grow it. In fact, it is anti-ethical to mountain biking and cycling in general which are human-powered sports.

As to resisting technological advances in mountain biking, speak for yourself. I welcome every new thing under the sun; from internal gear boxes to belt drives, that will make mountain biking more fun and interesting. Once again, however, and with feeling putting a motor on a bicycle is not technological advance neither is it the inevitable and logical next step in mountain biking.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

mimi1885 said:


> There are 2 separate issues. Trail access, and e-bikes.
> 
> We have to consider it separately. We are losing trail access because people don't like mountain bikers, and there are not enough of us to fight the issues. Heck horses do more damage to the trails than mountain bikes. To the city officials when they hear mountain bike they think "red bull rampage", well really, I don't think they care, they just like the power.
> 
> ...


This is bull****, nothing you say above is true.  Electric wheelchairs are legal on public land trails, that's the tree to bark up if you want to use motorized assistance on non-motorized trails.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Ailuropoda said:


> Putting a motor on a bicycle is not the same thing as changing a wheel size or adopting disc brakes. Likewise, riding what is functionally an electric moped is not part of the sport of mountain biking and will do nothing to grow it. In fact, it is anti-ethical to mountain biking and cycling in general which are human-powered sports.
> 
> As to resisting technological advances in mountain biking, speak for yourself. I welcome every new thing under the sun; from internal gear boxes to belt drives, that will make mountain biking more fun and interesting. Once again, however, and with feeling putting a motor on a bicycle is not technological advance neither is it the inevitable and logical next step in mountain biking.


Yet, you still insist in calling it moped. It's power assist not push buttons. Gruber assist has the idea, if there's a market for it, more companies would jump in and start offering more choices and option. It's still human power. It's similar idea as gearing, it's making climbing easier than riding 1:1 or 2:1. I don't view the power assist type as a motorized bike because it only making riding the same speed on a particular gear easier, as riders can not coast their way up the trail. Admittedly, there's only one or 2 models or companies that I know are doing this and they are not cheap.

I don't have to have the latest greatest thing at least not right away, I have enough self-control to wait at least a week or two before rushing out and get it.

What issue(s) do you have sharing a bike with power assist bike on the trail.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

bsieb said:


> This is bull****, nothing you say above is true.  Electric wheelchairs are legal on public land trails, that's the tree to bark up if you want to use motorized assistance on non-motorized trails.


Which part is not true?

So it's trail access not e-bike issue. Like I said, it's 2 separate issue. What issue do you have e-bike sharing your trail or possible losing trail access.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Seems like a lot of "E-bike" supporters are accusing anyone who opposes them as being hateful. Speaking for myself I don't hate them, I don't like them, nor do I really care about them. I do care how they are defined though, as long as they are used on roads or trails approved for *motorized* vehicles then by all means have at it.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

mimi1885 said:


> Which part is not true?
> 
> So it's trail access not e-bike issue. Like I said, it's 2 separate issue. What issue do you have e-bike sharing your trail or possible losing trail access.


I don't know of any mtb trails that are at risk because they don't allow motorized use, I doubt you could name one. I don't hate them, or any other motorized vehicles, they just aren't legal on the mtb trails I build and ride. How is a bike with a motor not motorized? Same for your other points...

Mountain biking is enjoying huge popularity and full speed ahead development currently, what gives with the chicken little attitude?


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Seems like a lot of "E-bike" supporters are accusing anyone who opposes them as being hateful. Speaking for myself I don't hate them, I don't like them, nor do I really care about them. I do care how they are defined though, as long as they are used on roads or trails approved for *motorized* vehicles then by all means have at it.


Fair enough, I'm a supporter of choices. I don't hate people who's against it. I just think that there are 2 separate issues and the typical answer is e-bike would lead to the ban of trail access. If that's the case, say so. Then we can deal with the issue at hand.

If it's the fact that e-bike is like cheating and does not belong on the trails, then it's another story. We can deal with that too. I don't have any problem either way, but if you want to hold on to the trail access, it's should not be a default that you hate e-bikes. This kind of thinking however, is no difference than the people who wants to ban mechanical device of any kind on the trails.

Some of us are not talking about a $300 conversion made in China that power the front wheel via a handle bar remote, but rather uber expensive device like Gruber assist and the Paul Turner's brother bike company that make the e-bike cost upward of $5,000(I'm not confirmed that it's e-assist bike or not), I'm a supporter of such device/bike/upgrade. You can't even tell the difference between gruber assist equipped bike and the regular bike. That's the idea.

I would have a lot more choices of trails when I only have 1-2 hr ride as I can go further and/or finish faster and still get my workout done.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Seems like a lot of "E-bike" supporters are accusing anyone who opposes them as being hateful. Speaking for myself I don't hate them, I don't like them, nor do I really care about them. I do care how they are defined though, as long as they are used on roads or trails approved for *motorized* vehicles then by all means have at it.


There ya go! Thank you!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

mimi1885- The Gruber assist is a real knee slapper. 

I'll see your ebike and raise you an efatbike...


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> I won't dispute what you've seen, but did you have a radar gun? Musta been a heck of a downhill though!
> 
> Curious though, because any E-bike in the US is limited to 20 mph.
> 
> ...


It was actually with a Laser Technology Inc (LTI) 20/20 TruSpeedS handheld laser.. (That should give you a pretty good indication of my career).. he was in a lane for bicycles too, and Florida law requires the bicycle lane only be used by vehicles under human power. Another indication is my location, Florida... good luck finding a significant downhill.

What he was riding appeared to be modified... while an imported "ebike" has restrictions, its no different than someone buying a car off the showroom floor and adding a turbo..

If ebikes become legal on trails, youll undoubtedly have people who modify them and make them significantly faster. Trailside, there will be no practical way to differentiate and regulate who has one that meets standards and who doesnt.. Thats why it has to be an all or nothing type regulation.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

bsieb said:


> I don't know of any mtb trails that are at risk because they don't allow motorized use, I doubt you could name one. I don't hate them, or any other motorized vehicles, they just aren't legal on the mtb trails I build and ride. How is a bike with a motor not motorized? Same for your other points...


I can't think of one, but that's not my question. I know that e-bike are not allowed on any trails I ride. The question was; what's the issue with e-assist bike on the trail? Is it because it will take away or lead to the ban on trail access for mountain bikers? If yes then, if e-assist bikes are legal and allowed on the shared trails, will you have a problem with that.

The bikes can have power assist system which means it still requires pedaling input in order to move forward, not a push button or a twist of the throttle. It's a big difference. I'm well aware of the fact that motorized device are not allowed on the trails right now. That's why I said it's a separate issues.

Are we just afraid of the lost or limit to our trails privilege, or we are prejudice against the e-bikes on the trails. According to your answers and some, I read who have no issue with them outside the trails then when it becomes legal then we should not have any problem supporting the e-bikes.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

bsieb said:


> mimi1885- The Gruber assist is a real knee slapper.
> 
> I'll see your ebike and raise you an efatbike...


Can I put knobbies? Well does not matter I don't do hardtail


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Just check out how little pedaling this bike needs. Watch how many times he takes off from a start without a single rotation of the cranks. Claims a top speed of 50mph..

Stealth Bomber Electric Bicycle Ride - YouTube


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mimi1885 said:


> Fair enough, I'm a supporter of choices. I don't hate people who's against it. I just think that there are 2 separate issues and the typical answer is e-bike would lead to the ban of trail access. If that's the case, say so. Then we can deal with the issue at hand.
> 
> If it's the fact that e-bike is like cheating and does not belong on the trails, then it's another story. We can deal with that too. I don't have any problem either way, but if you want to hold on to the trail access, it's should not be a default that you hate e-bikes. This kind of thinking however, is no difference than the people who wants to ban mechanical device of any kind on the trails.


I'm not sure that I fall into either of your categories, I guess I'm one of the few of a dying breed who still feel like mountain biking is a wilderness experience. That's why I try to avoid riding in areas where motor vehicles are allowed and would probably avoid riding in designated bike parks (if they were available to me) for the same reason. I obey trailhead signs that prohibit bicycles, I'm not averse to walking.

The bikes you're talking about are slow and most likely pretty quiet but as has already been said (multiple times) they can be easily modified, and there are plenty of souped up versions readily available.

_Motorized_


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Check out this fat bike electric "assist" bike.. it spun the tires a little bit on asphalt! BIG FOOT SIGHTED! 10,000W 2WD MONSTER CAUGHT ON CAMERA - YouTube


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## roxnroots (Aug 12, 2010)

I don't think that generally the current generation of land managers is going to be wild about this idea. It's been hard enough just getting regular mtbs on even limited public lands where I live.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Is that what this is reduced to? Mod e-bikes argument? Sandspur? ok then. 

J.B. I hear you man, I feel the same way on many trails even ones that cut thru the houses. Keep rocking.


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

This is a interesting topic. Not exactly sure what to make of e-bikes, as I've never ridden one. I have played around on my daughters electric dirt bike (OSET) and they are pretty cool, but.... I kind of think.... if you're going to ride a bike, then ride a bike. If you're going to ride a bike with a motor, then cut to the chase and ride a real motorbike.

I took up dirt biking a few years ago (used to ride mountain bikes a ton) and have never looked back. They are incredible machines - the two wheeled holy grail for me. 

But I will say this. Riding a powerful dirt bike over challenging terrain is freaking exhausting. It's one hell of a work out... there's a reason it's called enduro racing.

Now e-bikes have pretty dismal HP numbers, so they are not going to be as exhausting to ride, but no doubt they will take it out of you to ride them race pace. You put in the same effort, but you go further and probably have more fun also. Now sure if you're just out there putting around it's not much of a workout, but where's the fun it that?


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## Ilyam3 (Nov 21, 2011)

Opinion: A Secret Trail and an Argument Against E-Bikes - Pinkbike

Good discussion on pinkbike as well. The problem with any moped (and yes they are mopeds - any thing with power assist, motor attached is a moped or a scooter ) is that any motor is easily modded. 
I enjoy motocross as well and love motorcycles and have never seen a single guy who did not modify their bike.
First thing ill do to my e moped is modify it. It will have more power more torque. It is not regulated and difficult to check
No land manager will spend time digging and checking what power you have. A scooter is a scooter and we should not loose trail access because of that.
So I believe it is black and white - no motorized devices on trails..
have to enjoy them on the motocross designed tracks


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

mimi1885 said:


> There are 2 separate issues. Trail access, and e-bikes.
> 
> We have to consider it separately. We are losing trail access because people don't like mountain bikers, and there are not enough of us to fight the issues. Heck horses do more damage to the trails than mountain bikes. To the city officials when they hear mountain bike they think "red bull rampage", well really, I don't think they care, they just like the power.
> 
> We don't have the numbers of riders to effectively make the difference. It's not cycling it's just mountain biking. There are plenty of critical masses that causing trouble in every big cities in the world and no one has the nuts to put a stop to it. ..


Here in Phoenix and around Arizona for the most part that is not true. We have more and more mtb trails being created all the time. Granted 99% of these are multi-used hike/bike/horse, but we are not seeing trail restrictions. Cities here are actually expanding and seeking more mtn bike useage. We don't need e-bikes to bolster numbers.

In fact e-bikes can make access worse if people start riding them like MX bikes and starting running hikers off the trails. I don't know how e-bike will evolve, but for now I considered them motor bikes and therefore only allowed on trails that have motorbike access.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Horses are technically motorized vehicles imho.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

car bone said:


> Horses are technically motorized vehicles imho.


 By what measure?


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

You don't have to use your own energy to move around. Its basically a 4 legged motor.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm skeptical about the main talking point for ebikes. I don't think the main limit on MTB usage is climbing fitness, so I don't think availability of trail-designed mopeds is going to lead to any big influx of riders. I see convenient availability of trails, skills/risk, and cost as much more significant limiting factors than hard climbs. If climbing fitness were the only thing keeping the hordes off the trails, wouldn't Kansas and Florida have huge trail ridership? Wouldn't mountainous regions would be MTB deadsville? That's not exactly reality.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

tiretracks said:


> By what measure?


They need to be kick-started?


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

tiretracks said:


> By what measure?


They have, ahem... emissions!


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

mimi1885 said:


> We are losing trail access because people don't like mountain bikers, and there are not enough of us to fight the issues. Heck horses do more damage to the trails than mountain bikes. To the city officials when they hear mountain bike they think "red bull rampage", well really, I don't think they care, they just like the power.
> 
> We don't have the numbers of riders to effectively make the difference. It's not cycling it's just mountain biking. There are plenty of critical masses that causing trouble in every big cities in the world and no one has the nuts to put a stop to it.


I disagree 100%.

Trail access issues are local issues, so the particular barriers to access will vary from place to place. But, in many parts of the country, the trails are multi-use, and our best argument for keeping and expanding MTB trail access there is the fact that we can co-exist safely and enjoyably with other trail users. A big influx of new users on trail-designed mopeds -- less skilled than MTB riders, able to go faster than MTB riders, and able to do more trail damage -- wouldn't be _good _for MTB trail access, it would be _a disaster_ for MTB trail access.

Trail access isn't a democracy, and numbers aren't power, just look at horses. Where I ride, we outnumber horse riders 100-to-1 or more, but they have more power than we do. Outnumbering them even more wouldn't solve that. More riders + more conflict with other users + more liability + more trail impact = less MTB access.

Honestly, I think all this talk about opening the trails to more riders is marketing-speak. Bike-industry profits depend on persuading enough of us, often enough, that our bikes are obsolete so we have to buy new ones. Trail mopeds are just another shot at that. If we love it and we have somewhere to ride it, we'll buy it.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

OldManBike said:


> I disagree 100%.
> 
> Trail access issues are local issues, so the particular barriers to access will vary from place to place. But, in many parts of the country, the trails are multi-use, and our best argument for keeping and expanding MTB trail access is the fact that we can co-exist safely and enjoyably with other trail users. A big influx new users on trail-designed mopeds -- less skilled than MTB riders, able to go faster than MTB riders, and able to do more trail damage -- wouldn't be good for MTB trail access, it would be a disaster for MTB trail access.
> 
> ...


^Well said!

The real answer is purpose built trail, which is how mtbing does it. Lightweight electric trail cycles are not mountain bikes and need their own purpose built trail. They can pull tool and lunch carts with them.


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

When we have 120-150lb 30+ hp electric bikes with ~ 5-6 hours of run time (~10 years off), then I think we'll see a a fair amount of MTB'ers jump ship. Eventually there will be the die hard human powered "roadies on dirt" and everyone else (motorized).

IMHO the only thing attractive about MTBing vs dirt biking is the available (no-motorized) trails. Oh and the cost of ownership is much lower. Dirt bikes are a ton of maintenance, but electric power will reduce that a fair amount.

I mean, what's not to like about a motorized bike!!?? Superfun.


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## roxnroots (Aug 12, 2010)

Now how are you supposed to burn off the IPAs with those newfangled contraptions?


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

I'm hearing weight concerns, and trail damage concerns. 

Yet a 275 lb DH yahoo who loves to lock the brakes in the corners and scream like an asshat at hikers, and a 125 lb XC racer who barely touches the brakes are equal because they both pedal?

Middle ground folks, middle ground. Regulation prevents the horror stories that you all are dreaming of, from ever happening, commercially at least. 

Show me a current E-bike that will do smoky burnouts please (as well as the afore mentioned 40 mpher), and I mean a stock one that can be rolled off the floor and ridden, not some whacked out custom built two wheeled dragster by some MIT kid with a trust fund.


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

roxnroots said:


> Now how are you supposed to burn off the IPAs with those newfangled contraptions?


They've got pedals, right?


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## roxnroots (Aug 12, 2010)

Steve71 said:


> They've got pedals, right?


Defaulting to sit mode would look pretty tempting . . .


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

OldManBike said:


> I disagree 100%.
> 
> Trail access issues are local issues, so the particular barriers to access will vary from place to place. But, in many parts of the country, the trails are multi-use, and our best argument for keeping and expanding MTB trail access is the fact that we can co-exist safely and enjoyably with other trail users. A big influx new users on trail-designed mopeds -- less skilled than MTB riders, able to go faster than MTB riders, and able to do more trail damage -- wouldn't be good for MTB trail access, it would be a disaster for MTB trail access.
> 
> ...


It's not about voting, bigger numbers put politician in check, it makes them think before they start anything. We see that all day on the reverse side of it. I want to live in your part of the country where mtb trail access is not an issue. Are there any good golf course near by too? If I get these two I'm happy


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

bsieb said:


> ^Well said!
> 
> The real answer is purpose built trail, which is how mtbing does it. Lightweight electric trail cycles are not mountain bikes and need their own purpose built trail. They can pull tool and lunch carts with them.


Good point. I agree.


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

roxnroots said:


> Defaulting to sit mode would look pretty tempting . . .


Not sure what you're getting at. You can pedal when you're sitting, but if you're saying it would be too temping to just coast, then you should stick to a non-motorized bike I guess. But that's more about you, not the bike.

Personally I find the down hill sections more exhausting and demanding as I'm going race pace. Do you just sit and coast the down hills?


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

mimi1885 said:


> It's not about voting, bigger numbers put politician in check, it makes them think before they start anything.


You have a different understanding about how our democracy really works than I do.



mimi1885 said:


> I want to live in your part of the country where mtb trail access is not an issue.


Hah, if only. Not sure where you got that from my post.



mimi1885 said:


> Are there any good golf course near by too? If I get these two I'm happy


A golfer? That explains everything. (I'm joking.)


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## Ilyam3 (Nov 21, 2011)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> I'm hearing weight concerns, and trail damage concerns.
> 
> Yet a 275 lb DH yahoo who loves to lock the brakes in the corners and scream like an asshat at hikers, and a 125 lb XC racer who barely touches the brakes are equal because they both pedal?
> 
> ...


The problem is - it is impossible to regulate. Bikes will be modified immediately. 5 minute Google search brings out exactly what will happen with Mopeds on the trail - fast and furious all over.
Worlds most dangerous electric bicycle. - YouTube
Stealth Bomber Electric Bike Review - YouTube
More Power by Cyclone 5000 Watt 48 Volt e-bike in a Mountain Ride - YouTube


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> I'm hearing weight concerns, and trail damage concerns.
> 
> Yet a 275 lb DH yahoo who loves to lock the brakes in the corners and scream like an asshat at hikers, and a 125 lb XC racer who barely touches the brakes are equal because they both pedal?
> 
> ...


One of the videos I posted was an unmodified factory spec'd electronic assist bike with a proclaimed 50mph top speed when switched to the unrestricted setting..

Modifying of ebikes will be just a common as modifying bicycles.. just check out the beginner forum of this site. Someone buys a bike and within a week already looking to change things....


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

OldManBike said:


> You have a different understanding about how our democracy really works than I do.
> 
> A golfer? That explains everything. (I'm joking.)


We are not a democratic state, we are a republic. I understand that. I also live in SoCal where we are giving free sh!t to lots of entitled characters here. I can't wait to move. I don't want to derail this post so you are right. What was I thinking? Too many variables it'd only work if we are without all kind of regulations, and riders are policing ourselves.

I still think choices are a good thing and I withdraw my argument, fold under peer pressure and support whatever popular here:thumbsup:


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Will e-bikers treat the trail any better than the often referenced 'DH' straw men? 

I seriously doubt it.


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## Gregon2wheels (Jan 17, 2013)

OldManBike said:


> If the guy has a financial stake in all this that he's not disclosing, that's one thing. But if he's just another guy who posts about an issue he cares about, what's the issue?


Hey someone had to put that electric motor in Cancellara's bike a few years ago, right? Maybe that certain someone has moved on to mountain bikes, right? :ihih:

I think SS is mistaking me for another member.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

mimi1885 said:


> I want to live in your part of the country where mtb trail access is not an issue. Are there any good golf course near by too? If I get these two I'm happy


Come to Phoenix! Plus year around riding.


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## Gregon2wheels (Jan 17, 2013)

> Seems like a lot of "E-bike" supporters are accusing anyone who opposes them as being hateful.


You're accusing folks who think we need to consider e-bikes (I'm not a supporter - but I do object to an us v. them mentality that I am reading here from some people where I see a spectrum from pure pedal to pure motor) of the same narrow thinking that the quote above makes. Don't paint with a broad brush. I never said anyone opposing them as being hateful. I quoted a clearly hateful statement and a sarcastic one as well as referenced more hateful statements. The haters are out there -- and they contribute nothing to the conversation. Opposition != hate. Like Mendon says, we need to find a middle ground. I said something similar above, although maybe not as clearly.



SandSpur said:


> Just check out how little pedaling this bike needs. Watch how many times he takes off from a start without a single rotation of the cranks. Claims a top speed of 50mph..
> 
> Stealth Bomber Electric Bicycle Ride - YouTube


The Stealth Bomber is only legal outside competition up to 20 mph. The bicycle you saw was being used illegally. Why would that person follow rules about staying off monutain bike only trails? This whole discussion is moot for riders riding illegal equipment.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Gregon2wheels said:


> I think SS is mistaking me for another member.


Its possible, If I am, I apologize. The thread I was thinking of was quite a handful. I tried to look for it but I think it got binned.


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## Gregon2wheels (Jan 17, 2013)

SandSpur said:


> Its possible, If I am, I apologize. The thread I was thinking of was quite a handful. I tried to look for it but I think it got binned.


Check your PMs


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Gregon2wheels said:


> The Stealth Bomber is only legal outside competition up to 20 mph. The bicycle you saw was being used illegally. Why would that person follow rules about staying off monutain bike only trails? This whole discussion is moot for riders riding illegal equipment.


The great thing about laws is... theyre written. Please provide a source for that bike being illegal above 20mph unless used in "competition"...


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

JoePAz said:


> Come to Phoenix! Plus year around riding.


Funny, the last time I was in Phoenix, the only thing we saw was golf courses and hotel we drove 9-10 hrs there spent 3 days golfing then drove back.

Actually I have my heart set at Flagstaff, I may do business there. As soon as my baby is old enough for us to move I'll start shopping for location. How far is it from Pheonix?

Thanks


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## Gregon2wheels (Jan 17, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> ... I'm one of the few of a dying breed who still feel like mountain biking is a wilderness experience. ...


Mountain biking is illegal in Wilderness because it is *mechanized*. JB picked his words carefully (mechanized v. motorized and big W/little w wilderness), but I'm trying to draw parallels with e-bikes and build off JB's thread. People make all the same arguments against mountain bikes as the DR article referenced against e-bikes. That's one of my complaints with the article - it's not adding anything to the conversation.

From http://idahoptv.org/outdoors/shows/cyclingidaho/mtbiking.cfm: mountain biking as opposed to hiking let's you get farther and put yourself in more danger than a hiker.

"If you don't have the proper equipment and have it put together right, have your helmet on right, know the basic fundamental skills of mountain biking, then it can be incredibly dangerous..."

We are making the same arguments against e-bikes that hikers make against us. That strikes me as hypocritical.



SandSpur said:


> The great thing about laws is... theyre written. Please provide a source for that bike being illegal above 20mph unless used in "competition"...


Bomber - Stealth Electric Bikes USA | Electric Bikes | Electric Bicycles | Electric Mountain Bike - Stealth Electric Bikes - USA

The Green Commuter

Electric bicycle laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anything above 20 mph becomes a motor vehicle. So... the e-bike discussion might be moot. The CPSC defines an e-bike with a top speed of less than 20 mph as a bicycle. In the absence of specific state or local laws, they might be allowed on trails as bicycles. Under federal law as I understand it (I'm not a politician or a lawyer), e-bikes bicycles not motorized vehicles so long as they can't go faster than 20 mph without pedaling.

As I said before, land managers better start thinking about which trails can handle e-bikes and which can't; otherwise, the e-bike will be legally allowed everywhere a bicycle is.

(EDITED: added comment about moot argument < 20 mph)


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## Gregon2wheels (Jan 17, 2013)

...


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## roxnroots (Aug 12, 2010)

Steve71 said:


> Not sure what you're getting at. You can pedal when you're sitting, but if you're saying it would be too temping to just coast, then you should stick to a non-motorized bike I guess. But that's more about you, not the bike.
> 
> Personally I find the down hill sections more exhausting and demanding as I'm going race pace. Do you just sit and coast the down hills?


Sorry, I guess I didn't make either attempt at self-deprecating beer-related humor and subsequent lack of downhill race pace initiative clear enough.


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## Ilyam3 (Nov 21, 2011)

Gregon2wheels said:


> ...


Who is going to enforce those rules? how are you going to check if my top speed is 20? Who is going to check it? people will immediately modify the bikes to be faster and more powerful. Look at the cars.. It is highly regulated and requires annual state inspection and still every other Honda Civic has an illegal Nitro kit installed and speed limiter removed and a loud exhaust bolted on.
There is no annual inspection for bikes, no check points on the trail - so it has to be black and white - no mopeds on mountain bike trails.

No one hates the mopeds - I would ride one in a heart beat and have tons of fun on it. I believe all motorcycles and scooters will become electric soon. - But it needs to be done on the motocross trails.


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## Gregon2wheels (Jan 17, 2013)

Ilyam3 said:


> Look at the cars.. It is highly regulated and requires annual state inspection and still every other Honda Civic has an illegal Nitro kit installed and speed limiter removed and a loud exhaust bolted on.


There were over 336,000 Civics sold in just 2013. I really doubt 168,000 Civics were heavily modified. I use this point to say that I expect e-bikes - especially $10,000 e-bikes like the Stealth Bomber - to be even rarer on the trail than modified Civics on the road.

Most people in this country own Walmart bicycles, that won't stand up to pedal trail riding. They certainly won't stand up to adding an additional 50# - 75# of motor and battery and their associated torque. You'll need a purpose built e-bike or at least a reasonably rugged high quality mountain bike to start with if you expect it to last any amount of time. These will be price prohibitive to most Americans.\



> There is no annual inspection for bikes, no check points on the trail - so it has to be black and white - no mopeds on mountain bike trails.


There are limited check points on trails for motorcycles for things like spark arresters and noise limits. It can be done.



> No one hates the mopeds - I would ride one in a heart beat and have tons of fun on it. I believe all motorcycles and scooters will become electric soon. - But it needs to be done on the motocross trails.


Motocross is done on tracks. Enduro is done on trails. There is singletrack that can support both motorcycles and mountain bikes -- I used Stoney Lonesome in Cullman as an example.

I'm saying that land managers need to look at what trails can safely support mountain bikes and e-bikes just like 25 years ago when they looked at what trails can safely support mountain bikes and hikers.

One other point to add is that bikes like the Stealth Bomber (in US configuration) and the Specialized Turbo have a power rating of 250 W. Cadel Evans could exceed 400 W (and easily exceed 20 mph). Power is parallel to fit cyclists. There is no torque issue damaging trails for legal bicycles. Again this was a problem I had with the DR article - where is the fact and data? Don't assume that the e-bikes will tear and trails.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Gregon2wheels said:


> Bomber - Stealth Electric Bikes USA | Electric Bikes | Electric Bicycles | Electric Mountain Bike - Stealth Electric Bikes - USA
> 
> The Green Commuter
> 
> ...


Ive been involved in criminal law enforcement for more than a decade. The intent of laws regarding the 20mph limit is to ensure operators arent charged criminally for riding one on a roadway without a drivers license. And while one specific chapter of law might define a bicycle as allowing electric assist as long as it doesnt go more than 20mph, other chapters can (and often do) define something a different way. For the purposes of off roadway usage, you cant use definitions from statutes/codes written for roadway/highway. Its the same reason why children can legally race cars and motorcycles and not get arrested for operating vehicles without drivers licenses, because roadway/traffic laws dont apply to off highway use.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

mimi1885 said:


> Funny, the last time I was in Phoenix, the only thing we saw was golf courses and hotel we drove 9-10 hrs there spent 3 days golfing then drove back.
> 
> Actually I have my heart set at Flagstaff, I may do business there. As soon as my baby is old enough for us to move I'll start shopping for location. How far is it from Pheonix?
> Thanks


Flag is 2 to 2.5 hrs north of Phoenix depending on which part of Phx your are in. Not as many golf courses there and riding season is shorter due to snow and cold. I had friend move up there and he did less riding there than in Phx. Flag is great for 3 months ok for 2 more and crappy for the rest of the year. I can ride year around in Phx if I ride early or in evenings. As for riding trails. There are trails all over the city as every mtn is open riding and hiking. The only places not open are camelback mountain and the summit trail on squaw peak.Neither are rideable anyway with 15-25% grades and too many hikers and the account for maybe 3 miles of hundreds in phx. The best part is that Mtn bikers and highers co-exist nicely and the City of Phx and Scottsdale are building new trails every year.


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## spinningmagnets (Jun 17, 2014)

Street ebikes are huge in China as commuters, literally millions of them. A big part of the reason is the visible smog and a govt crack-down on 2-stroke mopeds. 

Off road ebikes are biggest in Germany, and the last few years there has been a lot of growth there, and the profits have driven improved models being developed. A popular brand is E-motion, based in Spain, and off-road ebikes with the German Bosch system are too numerous to list here.

Electric Bike Action Magazine was developed a few years ago, so the mother corporation that produces Mountain Bike Action/Road Bike Action can have a place to advertise ebikes while avoiding some of the backlash they saw whenever there was an article on ebikes.

There is a perception in the bicycle industry that there will be a boom in ebikes in North America soon (whether that's true or not), and anyone who makes a living in the bicycle industry will have to make a decision as to whether they want to participate or not. An LBS that is thriving has the ability to stick by any "no ebikes" policy they might have, but many LBS's are struggling, and revenue from ebike customers might allow them to survive.

Whether you love off-road ebikes, or hate them, your new best friend or worst enemy is the Bafang BBSHD kit. It is unlikely to be written about in Electric Bike Action magazine because their advertising is from factory turn-key ebikes.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Perhaps, but I just spent a coupla hours riding with Karel, one of EBAs tech editors and he rode my BBSHD hard tail, took some pictures and later emailed for details. All I did was reach out by sending a blind email to the magazine staff offering my first hard tail for them to test and one of them responded. Maybe they are looking to do a readers rides section with non-OEM bikes?

These guys are all spoiled by riding test bikes with Bosch torque sensing power assist systems and find the Bafang cruise control auto throttle to be crude. They also have bought into the whole no throttle low power thing too. Their loss IMHO as the Chinese have been selling tons, literally, of mid-drives into the EU and NA and they all seem to be throttled and of much more power than the 350w EU limited OEM bikes.

Once you upgrade your old MTB with a motor, you also eventually upgrade all the other components too and your LBS could get a big chunk of that money if they were supportive. As it is I've spent over $1000 on bike bits since Xmas and all of it online...... Too bad my LBS were such snoots when I first rode my ebike in to chat.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't see a boon for EBikes for mountain bike trails in the USA. Trail access will not be allowed. There may be some small segments of the country where all the right things come in to place: Very limited Sierra lub and elistist ******* presence, no ******* hores people doing damage to trails but getting away with it ebcause of money, no state elitist jerk-offs who will use every technicality to be anti-mountain bike while allowing everything else to go on, and the general terrified public made up mostly of nany state types, and very limited NIMBY jerk-offs.

If all those things come together and IMBA were supportie then it could happen in some micro-regions. It will bedecades if not infinity and beyond before they get widespread trail access in the states.

I would use them for shuttle runs and one as a commuter would be cool too. They could be beneficial for poaching trails as it may help you get out of there faster.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Is the state of California and its state parks and public lands a very small segment of the country? Because their government declared Class 1 ebikes to be legally bicycles on Jan. 1 2016 welcome wherever any other bicycle in the state is.....

As I have said before: if you are riding an illegally built trail on private or public property you are a criminal and really can't complain if someone chooses to violate the laws of criminal trespass along with you on a different type of bicycle.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> Is the state of California and its state parks and public lands a very small segment of the country? Because their government declared Class 1 ebikes to be legally bicycles on Jan. 1 2016 welcome wherever any other bicycle in the state is.....
> 
> As I have said before: if you are riding an illegally built trail on private or public property you are a criminal and really can't complain if someone chooses to violate the laws of criminal trespass along with you on a different type of bicycle.


Perpetuating the misinformation does not make it true. E-bikes are only allowed on trail systems when they are approved on a case by case basis by the local land managers and the legislation is by no means the blanket approval you represent it as.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Perpetuating the misinformation does not make it true.


Nope, but people will keep regurgitating it as if it is...


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

WoodlandHills said:


> Is the state of California and its state parks and public lands a very small segment of the country? Because their government declared Class 1 ebikes to be legally bicycles on Jan. 1 2016 welcome wherever any other bicycle in the state is.....
> 
> As I have said before: if you are riding an illegally built trail on private or public property you are a criminal and really can't complain if someone chooses to violate the laws of criminal trespass along with you on a different type of bicycle.


That is not true as said above. Maybe that's why your LBS seemed snooty, you come of as a know it all. I bet that happens a lot to you.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

What part was not true? The trespass part or the Class 1 ebike part, 'cause I'm pretty sure being on someone's land without their permission is a crime no matter how you go about it (or is the law different for cool outlaw MTB trail builders?) and the Class 1 ebike being the legal equivalent of an old-fashioned pushbike in CA is also settled and signed law. At least it is according to the Santa Monica Mtns park rangers...........Both State and the Feds who have jurisdiction have gotten on board here where I ride. 

So, you might disagree, but where is the untruth? Things in CA changed in a big way on Jan 1 2016, just because some people didn't notice or don't approve does not change the facts on the ground.

Oh, and if disapproving of trail building on private or public lands without permission makes me snooty in your eyes, that says more about your values than mine. If this is the prevailing ethos of the MTB community, no wonder you are so afraid of being banned from places and losing access: that's the kind of stuff that could give a whole group of people a crappy reputation. Talk about starting out on the wrong foot with the landowner or manager........


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Credibility zero. Now run along and play with your motorcycle.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> Perpetuating the misinformation does not make it true. E-bikes are only allowed on trail systems when they are approved on a case by case basis by the local land managers and the legislation is by no means the blanket approval you represent it as.


 But what if all the local managers have approved already? Because that's what happened here where I live, I called all the ranger stations around here and they all said to go ride my ebike on their land. Apparently they chose to comply with the intent of state law as it applied to Class 1's. I think they want to get more people out onto the trails and don't care if they are walkers, horse riders or bicyclists (of any sort), almost as if expanding usage was some sort of a mission for them.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> Is the state of California and its state parks and public lands a very small segment of the country? Because their government declared Class 1 ebikes to be legally bicycles on Jan. 1 2016 welcome wherever any other bicycle in the state is.....
> 
> As I have said before: if you are riding an illegally built trail on private or public property you are a criminal and really can't complain if someone chooses to violate the laws of criminal trespass along with you on a different type of bicycle.


Really? I don't live in CA anymore and I know what your saying is wrong because you have purposely left out all of the relevant information. Post back when you get a land manager to approve trail access on Noble.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

So show me what I left out. I assumed you could use The Google thing to get a copy of the law, so show me what I left out. In CA a Class 1 ebike is the legal equivalent of a pushbike as of Jan 1 2016. See post 139

I'll call Cleveland National Forest tomorrow and find out about Noble Cyn. Today all calls are going to voicemail......


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> Credibility zero. Now run along and play with your motorcycle.


 I intend to, I've restored a Laverda RGS1000 that I have a bunch of fun with, I also intend to play with my ebikes too. I'll wave as I pass on either bike!


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Thanks for the tip about Noble Canyon, the head of Cleveland National Forest is going to discuss the changes in CA law and how it might affect trail access with me in a few days. 

Again, thanks for the help. It may not open anywhere to ebikes, but then again, it might..... It all starts with a discussion with those who have the power.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

As of today, the director/head ranger of Cleveland National Forest says that ebikes are still considered to be motorized vehicles and are thus restricted from using MTB trails. They are going to monitor the experiences of "other agencies" in the state before re-evaluating in a year or so.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Hey were all these trails??? I am always looking for new trails to ride on my E bike


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

rider95 said:


> Hey were all these trails??? I am always looking for new trails to ride on my E bike


The hills above West LA/Santa Monica that are part of the Santa Monica Mtns Conservency permit Class 1 ebikes on all trails that permit bicycles.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Dam I am in Indiana nothing fun happens here .


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## marekli (Feb 8, 2016)

I am also considering an e-bike as an addition, mostly as a commuting vehicle. I am glad STC has distanced itself from E-bikes on trails. It will be hard enough to keep access for regular unassisted bikes on trails. There needs to be a clear line drawn between unassisted MTBs and e-MTBs more so than in city/road traffic with road bikes. E-bikes will become a lot more powerful and faster so will also create more hazards where they share lanes with pedestrian, equestrian and wheeled traffic. Opening up trails will create a lot more problems down the road than we can now forsee.

BTW, there's an updated article about a DIY build of an E-MTB on an Ellsworth Dare with a 3000W Bafang BBSHD by Lunacycle:

https://www.electricbike.com/project-x-building-the-baddest-and-fastest-3000w-bbshd-ebike-ever/

Specs:
BBSHD Bafang 1000w Drive System ($700 from luna)
Luna Eclipse Chain Ring ($100 from Luna)
Adappto Mini -E Controller set ($400 from Adappto Labs)
Ellsworth Dare Downhill Bike ($1000 used on craigslist)
Rohloff Speedhub 14 speed bolt on Internal gear hub transmission ($1300 from Cycle Monkey)
Luna Cycle Panasonic PF 11.6ah backpack battery ($440 from Luna)


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

OldManBike said:


> I haven't made up my mind what I think about e-bikes.


Really?

You offered me this quote in another forum:


> So take your weak moped cheerleading somewhere else where it belongs.


So now "e-bikes" and not mopeds?

Jeff Lockwood has been around a while and has many jobs and he is a stand up guy! Wouldn't you say? Hum? Dirt Rag has been around a really long time also! So wouldn't you say there pretty good also? Just maybe, just by the smallest margins they might be taking a chance on a new toy and some subscribers might want to learn about these new toys and ad one to their toy boxes?

But I love this one right below your post



dgw2jr said:


> Whether we like it or not, this industry is going to pull "innovation" right out it's a$$ and pump out whatever the hell they think will sell. 29er, 650b, e-bikes... We're just getting started!


 This is kinda what I expected, people who blast the crap outta something they know nothing about and bash others who have tried and ride them. Usually they turn into the guy who buys one and later says: Ya these are the best thing ever made, taking up the crusade!

So I think I'll take something from the quote above and speak it loud and proud:
"Were just getting started"


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

NEPMTBA said:


> Usually they turn into the guy who buys one and later says: Ya these are the best thing ever made, taking up the crusade!


Yep, about right....


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> This is kinda what I expected, people who blast the crap outta something they know nothing about and bash others who have tried and ride them. Usually they turn into the guy who buys one and later says: Ya these are the best thing ever made, taking up the crusade!
> 
> So I think I'll take something from the quote above and speak it loud and proud:
> "Were just getting started"


^this:thumbsup:

Same has been said about aluminum frame, carbon frames/components, full suspension, disc brake, adjustable seat post, platform pedals, Baggie shorts. It's a typical sour grapes attitude.

Many of my buddies opposed to some or all of them, but now they love them.


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## marekli (Feb 8, 2016)

WoodlandHills said:


> As of today, the director/head ranger of Cleveland National Forest says that ebikes are still considered to be motorized vehicles and are thus restricted from using MTB trails. They are going to monitor the experiences of "other agencies" in the state before re-evaluating in a year or so.


CA law as of 2016..."The current regulations define an "electric bicycle": a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts, separated into three classes: A "class 1 electric bicycle," or "low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour. (2) A "class 2 electric bicycle," or "low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour. A "class 3 electric bicycle," or "speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, (no throttle) and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour, and equipped with a speedometer. Local government ordinances are allowed to permit or ban any class of electric bicycles on dedicated bicycle paths and trails, with Class 1 & 2 permitted, and Class 3 banned, by default."

The way I understand this, it's left to the land managers discretion where they allow or ban e-bikes from trails so curious what the default is right now on CA trails....


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

marekli said:


> I am also considering an e-bike as an addition, mostly as a commuting vehicle. I am glad STC has distanced itself from E-bikes on trails. It will be hard enough to keep access for regular unassisted bikes on trails. There needs to be a clear line drawn between unassisted MTBs and e-MTBs more so than in city/road traffic with road bikes. E-bikes will become a lot more powerful and faster so will also create more hazards where they share lanes with pedestrian, equestrian and wheeled traffic. Opening up trails will create a lot more problems down the road than we can now forsee.
> 
> BTW, there's an updated article about a DIY build of an E-MTB on an Ellsworth Dare with a 3000W Bafang BBSHD by Lunacycle:
> 
> ...


This is where it's quickly going, to quote Luna Cycles...

"Pumping 3000 watts through the BBSHD sounds ludicrous.

But it's this weeks project at the Luna Lab and we love doing out-of-the-box stuff when we aren't shuffling boxes.

Luna Cycles is built around extremes, and every day we try to throw something crazy into the mix and move forward. I guess that's us in a nutshell&#8230;do something that scares us every day, learn something new every day, and move forward in some way. (hopefully at high speed)

This week we built what we think is to date the fastest, most powerful, most awesome BBSHD Ever. 3000 watts of power.

This is one of the nicest electric bikes I have ever ridden and can possibly be the "holy grail" I have been looking for."

Any bullsh*t about ebikes not damaging the mtb trails is just that. :skep:


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

^^ just more sour grapes.... they would never take that onto a non-motorized trail. (sarc)


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

mimi1885 said:


> ^this:thumbsup:
> 
> Same has been said about aluminum frame, carbon frames/components, full suspension, disc brake, adjustable seat post, platform pedals, Baggie shorts. It's a typical sour grapes attitude.
> 
> Many of my buddies opposed to some or all of them, but now they love them.


Isn't it funny as a mod I have the job to post stuff for all to view and help the site with new news. It's all about media and viewing the what's happening on the front page. I got blasted by certain posters and they basically blamed me for e-bikes, yet they never asked me what my opinion was now as you say we will see hoards of adopters jumping on and within 12 seconds become experts...LOL


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

They should make a noise maker, or other system to alert approach, on them mandatory. Make it something less annoying than a horn, preferably. Passing people from behind _silently_ is pretty startling, and doing it at speeds of 10 MPH greater than your traveling speed and with handlebars coming within 2' of others can be exasperating.

I think they're cool technology-wise, and undoubtedly fun to ride, but I'm not going to try and pull the wool over others eyes and downplay the potential problems, nor act ignorant of them. Got to accept that while it may be an enabler for the less capable, that performance models are being put in the spotlight by manufacturers. There will be speed freaks that tend to turn into the typical d-bag, just like how owning certain cars turn people in d-bags, who are obnoxious to share public space with. Just ignoring them doesn't solve the problems they cause, it just creates more d-bags who feel like that to minimize the risk of being a victim of one of these types, it's best to turn into one yourself, perhaps driving the biggest car you can legally fit on the road and/or one with obnoxiously wide-opening doors, or getting an e-bike yourself. This category of people fit in some grey area between civilized society and being an outright crook/terrorist, along with trolls, jerks, bullies, drama queens, people who have lost their mind (bat-**** crazy), temperamental/belligerent people, etc. The question that should be answered, how do you deal with these types? Pedal assist and speed governors are merely a start, but not good enough.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Varaxis said:


> Passing people from behind _silently_ is pretty startling, and doing it at speeds of 10 MPH greater than your traveling speed and with handlebars coming within 2' of others can be exasperating.


Sounds like you have a pretty balanced view, so don't take this the wrong way?

This isn't an eBike thing. That's pretty much the entire argument made by folks trying to prevent MTBs from having access to the trails in the first place. Well, that and erosion, but I think you get what I'm driving at....


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

*C*



MendonCycleSmith said:


> Sounds like you have a pretty balanced view, so don't take this the wrong way?
> 
> This isn't an eBike thing. That's pretty much the entire argument made by folks trying to prevent MTBs from having access to the trails in the first place. Well, that and erosion, but I think you get what I'm driving at....


I agree, strength in numbers. Mountain bike community, mainly big companies didn't capitalize the momentum when it first exploded onto the scene, they poured more money into enforcements instead of spending more lobbying to ensure trails access.

I truly believe that pedal assist bikes would be the ticket to more trails access, may be not in the current state but when the right product hit the market it would explode as it would attract new riders. The growth would not be linear but exponential and all riders would benefit.

On the topic of erosion, from my experience, most comes from lack of skills and poor braking and slow speed handling skills. Every fun section on the trails I ride, the damages usually come from riders who can't clear it properly on the way up, usually didn't have enough speed to clear tough sections. It gets ugly fast.

There's no difference between e-bike and non e-bike on the descend, it can be equally good or equally ugly. I rode with several fa..let's call them big guys who could really tear up the trails if they are not careful, and also rode with a big guy who is a a bike-fu master and can still shred and catch big air. It's not the bike weight.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Yes, we're still dealing with a sensitive topic that has not been adequately addressed. Our trail sharing etiquette should be stronger, else the powers that be will create regulations that will be even stricter, since we aren't able to do it ourselves under our own initiative. Just like a parent or employer would, to sort out those that should be getting along...

Foot for foot traveled, a bike might cause no more erosion than hikers and equestrians, but bikes travel more distance on average and e-bikes would enable an even higher average distance traveled with no extra effort. Bikers end up wearing more of the trail than any of the other users. Adding more traffic just would make it erosion issues more apparent. Just look at bike races, the images from that side of the sport are pretty condemning. Heck, in an extreme case of sticky greasy mud, with riders having top tier braking and high speed handling skill, the tires fling it pretty far (I lol'd when I saw how that thing got splattered so much). They're all part of the bike traffic, even if not part of the norm, which you would hope to be smooth riders. I'd argue that it would be the types that rides more sensitive trails, rather than the ones designed for sustainability, that make up the majority "joining" through e-bikes.

Strength in numbers doesn't work when there's hardly anyone's working together. There's billions of people on Earth and it's difficult to harness even 1% of that to address global issues. When it comes to large #s of people, it seems average effort and/or brain power expended by each individual is reduced, the higher the potential of the group is. It could just be brainless mobbing in the end, even if you did unify the numbers; in fact, that's how _many _"successful" _large scale_ organizations are designed, with individual duties/responsibility dumbed down so much to allow for even the "lowest common denominator" to be able to contribute. From a management perspective, it can seem assbackwards to address the problems by giving more room for the biker population to grow. With new trails, others might just have false expectations of things getting better, and lowering their tolerance levels... even worse is if it just swells back again to the old questionable levels of intolerance, now combined with people's lowered tolerance levels. Basically, the fear is that it doesn't work, and one way to ensure it works is also something to fear, which is systematic regulation (ex. taxes, taking away free access).

I don't know about you, but my instincts scream bad news due to all the potential problems. Your bike weight argument is pretty amusing. I remember there being a video showing Gee Atherton racing down Ft William vs some pro MX rider and winning. Kind of shows that the track itself has speed limits, and the heavier the bike riding it at the limit, the higher the risk of erosion. I assume you agree that a far heavier MX bike does cause more erosion, though its 150-200 lbs weight difference makes the ~10 lbs weight difference of e-bikes seem pretty negligible. The e-bike rides even more places than regular bikes and motos, according to that Turbo Levo article. It attracts a crowd that doesn't value reward coming in response to hard work as much... when you take the pressure off of initial requirements, you end up with more "bads" signing up. Off-topic, this also sums up rotten kids and the problem with some of the new generation.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> Foot for foot traveled, a bike might cause no more erosion than hikers and equestrians, but bikes travel more distance on average and e-bikes would enable an even higher average distance traveled with no extra effort. Bikers end up wearing more of the trail than any of the other users. Adding more traffic just would make it erosion issues more apparent. Just
> 
> Strength in numbers doesn't work when there's hardly anyone's working together. There's billions of people on Earth and it's difficult to harness even 1% of that to address global issues. When it comes to large #s of people, it seems average effort and/or brain power expended by each individual is reduced, the higher the potential of the group is. It could just be brainless mobbing in the end, even if you did unify the numbers; in fact, that's how _many _"successful" _large scale_ organizations are designed, with individual duties/responsibility dumbed down so much to allow for even the "lowest common denominator" to be able to contribute. From a management perspective, it can seem assbackwards to address the problems by giving more room for the biker population to grow. With new trails, others might just have false expectations of things getting better, and lowering their tolerance levels... even worse is if it just swells back again to the old questionable levels of intolerance, now combined with people's lowered tolerance levels. Basically, the fear is that it doesn't work, and one way to ensure it works is also something to fear, which is systematic regulation (ex. taxes, taking away free access).
> 
> I don't know about you, but my instincts scream bad news due to all the potential problems. Your bike weight argument is pretty amusing. I remember there being a video showing Gee Atherton racing down Ft William vs some pro MX rider and winning. Kind of shows that the track itself has speed limits, and the heavier the bike riding it at the limit, the higher the risk of erosion. I assume you agree that a far heavier MX bike does cause more erosion, though its 150-200 lbs weight difference makes the ~10 lbs weight difference of e-bikes seem pretty negligible. The e-bike rides even more places than regular bikes and motos, according to that Turbo Levo article. It attracts a crowd that doesn't value reward coming in response to hard work as much... when you take the pressure off of initial requirements, you end up with more "bads" signing up. Off-topic, this also sums up rotten kids and the problem with some of the new generation.


Every time the e-bike topic came up in our group, 2 things usually discussed, trail access ban, and potential trail damage. My take would be the more (new) riders = the more voice to fight for access, it could also leads to new solutions to the issue. We don't know what we don't know but as of right now we are not winning/gaining. Hence the conversation about the topic.

Second point, noob on the trails can do worse damage than anything but they are allow and we are not doing anything about it. There are only a handful of club rides and social(forum) ride to educate proper trail etiquettes. More riders can get this issue handles faster. It's not going to be like wild Wild West out there if we double or triple the amount of riders on the trails, we'd find ways to coexist. Left alone people would find ways to behave properly on the trails and police ourselves.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Give an average rider an e-bike, and I'd bet everything I have that he becomes even more destructive on the trails. Blame the rider or the equipment? I'd blame the equipment.

That said, I hope for the e-biking future, that there's some sort of extra responsibility that comes with e-bike ownership, to offset that. Just like it's mostly mtbers (not really hikers/equestrians) doing trail maintenance, e-bikers are going to do more to give back, because apparently performing trail maintenance is not even enough. Based on the user groups that are being targeted for e-bikes in marketing, I fear that this "give and take system" is going to lean heavily on the take side.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Ebikes need ebike trails. Problem solved.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> I fear that this "give and take system" is going to lean heavily on the take side.


Exactly the situation with motorized user groups where I live.
They didn't do enough trail work to keep up with the wear they cause, and now have almost nowhere to ride legally. MTBers on the other hand do tons of trail work and have been rewarded with extensive and expanding riding opportunities.

Gotta earn your keep.


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