# Helmet or bar mount?



## Teufelhunde (May 19, 2007)

Hello all,

Living in AZ, I have to get up early to get in a ride during the week, as evenings is out of the question due to the heat. I must start about 0500, as I have to be at work at 7:00. It is already beginning to be a bit dark at 5, so I am looking at lights. I have a couple of questions for those experienced nightriders.

1. Helmet or bar mount? and why?

2. LED, Halogen, HID? and why?

TIA for the input.

Teu


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

Teufelhunde said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Living in AZ, I have to get up early to get in a ride during the week, as evenings is out of the question due to the heat. I must start about 0500, as I have to be at work at 7:00. It is already beginning to be a bit dark at 5, so I am looking at lights. I have a couple of questions for those experienced nightriders.
> 
> ...


1- If are possible, the better are use in helmet and bar with 2 lights. If you use at the helment you could see in all sides turn the head, but you will have more weight and could that disturb to you. If you mount only the light on the bar, will see in front, but if you want see at the right or left you can't see nothing.

2- I think that the best option are the led lights, more durable (in the time), more autonomy and better light and more weight light.

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

1. Helmet mounts light up what your head is aimed at, not what your bars are aimed at. But, because the light is placed relatively close to your eyes, you will see minimal shadows and, as a result, your depth perception will suffer. 

Bar lights create more visible shadows and, thus, you'll have a better grasp of how big the next rock/drop/root is. But you'll be less able to see around tight, twisty singletrack if you have that in your area.

I think having one of each is best, but if you could only have one I would pick based on the type sof trails you ride. Being in the desert, I would guess a handlebar mount would be best, but perhaps you'd get more knowledgeable responses in the Arizona forum.

2. There is so much info here if you only search a bit. My understanding (not an expert) is that, generally speaking : 

Halogens are cheap but heavy with short baterry life (most are NiCad or NiMH) and not as bright. 

HIDs are light, are very bright, and last long (most have LiIon batteries), but are expensive. 

LEDs are less $$ than HID's, are lighter, and have better battery life than halogens (especially with LiIon batteries). They appear to be a happy medium between Halogens and HIDs. The technology is getting better all the time, tho, and they may soon surpass HIDs (it seems some think they already have).

Good luck,
Ant


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## StowMtMan (Jul 6, 2007)

Teu,

Ant brings some great suggestions to the table. I also think that it is best to have lights on both the helmet and the bars. Depending on the type of terrain that you are riding, depth perceprion is key and you miss out with just a helmet light. As for LED or HID, I have both and have found the HID to be a bit brighter and longer lasting, but more sensitive if you are going to use the hard. I have abused my LED lights from NightRider and have been very happy with them. Battery life won't really be an issue for you if you are riding during sunrise for about 2 hrs. Thats my 2 cents.....

StowMtMan


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## Sisco_28601 (Mar 16, 2007)

I recently got into night riding myself. I went for HID because everyone around me recommended that. As Antonio said, I think LED will soon surpass HID, but I don't think it is quite there. HID vs. Halogen - I'd certainly say HID though.

As far as helmet vs handlebar goes, I went for helmet - I tried a quick ride around the block with the handlebar mount: everything was fine on asphalt, but as soon as you get on dirt, the light will never shine where you want it (too high, too low, too far right, too far left). Both would probably be nice, but that's a lot of $$$ and adds weight too.

I was never bothered by the lack of depth perception (although I hear that mentionned a lot) but on the downside of the helmet mount, I'd mention the weight on top of your head (which you'll quickly get used to) and the fact that you have to strap that helmet pretty tight or the light beam will bounce all over the place.

You'll love night riding - such a different experience...


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## STS01 (Dec 29, 2005)

I've got a pair of dual Seoul lights (bar & helmet) and find that the combo of bar and helmet light is FAR superior to either light alone (even if I double up the helmet light with my spare set of Cree XR-E lights!)- if you're prepared to DIY you could have a set of "achesalot' (search) LEDs for about $US170 including batteries,chargers etc... They'll be light (mine are 71g per dual light), bright and tough plus you'l be proud to tell people you made them yourself :thumbsup:


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

LED's have surpassed HID, check out what Lupine is doing.


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## Lumbee1 (Dec 16, 2004)

1. I will agree with others that both are a better option than one or the other.

2. I have two dual CREE's, one for the helmet and one for the handlebar. Both are extremely light, dimmable, last forever on Li-Ions, and put out more than enough light for night riding.

IMO, LED's have easily surpassed HID's. There are many more options and configurations for LED. If you want uber-amounts of light, just install more LED's. If you want adjustable light output, pick a converter with a external log pot option (shark and fatman). If you want the smallest and lightest package possible, build it yourself with a remote battery pack.

LED's are impact resistant and cheap to replace. The same cannot be said for HID.


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## presslab (Jan 5, 2007)

With regard to helmet vs bar mounting the helmet mount is nice because it points where you are looking. However, because it is up so high you don't get good shadows so it is hard to make out rocks and undulations in the trail. Both is probably ideal, but it I had to pick one I'd choose helmet.


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## Psycho Mike (Apr 2, 2006)

I've got a combo that is serving me well for the time being (at least until Lupine is shipping that monster and I have a chance to build a light myself). 

1 - I'm another that says go for both. I started with a bar mount and it has done well, but not being able to see anywhere but where the bar is pointed can be a real pain. As others have said, though, helmet mounts follow where you're looking, but don't give as much shadow.

2 - LED's are the wave of the future and are quite tough in terms of the abuse that they can take. My future lights will all be LED. 

I'm currently running a halogen on the bar and LED on my helmet. I personally find that the two light locations and two light colors throw excellent shadows for my riding (heavy canopy riding in a river valley where there are lots of roots and branches).

Just my thoughts.


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

I def prefer both, but if someone could only buy one, I'd say buy one that has both helmet and bar options in the same kit, so you can figure out which one works better for you.


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## greenLED (Jan 9, 2007)

I don't think it's a matter of "helmet OR bar", it's best to have helmet AND bar, IMO.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

HID lights are brighter than ANY reasonably available LED light on the market today. LED lights may do other things better, but they are NOT better in the brighter department. I run 1850 lumens on the bars. You would need a battery of Cateye shot LEDs to match that output. I do it with a 30w HID globe. Big and bright. HID.

Does everyone need 1850 lumens to ride at night? I guess they don't, but I do. I can't go as fast as I want with a NiteRider Moab for instance. Fast sure, but not as fast as I want. Put a 300-400 lumen LED that the Lupine and the Cateyes probably approach, and you have a significant loss in lumens comparatively. For me that translates to limiting speed due to lighting. I don't believe there is a real reason to limit speed if you don't have to, so I run as much light as I believe reasonable to go as fast as I want.

Bars or helmet? That is easy peasy. Bars. I can not count the times I get out there with a bunch of people with various HID brand lights mounted on the helmet, and just watch them flail. The depth perception issue is real when you have the lumens to see it. The riders start confident, but then fall behind quickly. When they arrive after being waited on, they have 100 excuses. What they don't understand is that they can't see what is in front of them due to their only light being on their helmet, and they can't see because they don't have enough light. i.e. lumens. If one has but one light for night singletrack, I believe it should be on the bars and in the least 400 lumens.

Then there is ease of use. My light is a mess to use. Once mounted it is the best in the world, but I had to create the mount due to the stock one being so poorly designed. It also wants the rider to be moving all the time while it is on. It gets hot even though mine doesn't seem to. It is not meant to be turned off and on really quick. It doesn't have any power settings. The battery is huge and potentially dangerous. ...but it does what I need it to do brilliantly: 3 hour night rides on the local loops. 

I'm not down on LED lights though. I would love to have a Cateye double shot LED on my helmet as a do everything light. Climbing, commuting, errands, urban, and pointing it downhill kind of light.


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## Teufelhunde (May 19, 2007)

Again, my thanks to all for the input.

Much more valuable information than I had any hopes of getting. Now the research phase begins................

Teu


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

29Colossus said:


> HID lights are brighter than ANY reasonably available LED light on the market today. LED lights may do other things better, but they are NOT better in the brighter department. I run 1850 lumens on the bars. You would need a battery of Cateye shot LEDs to match that output. I do it with a 30w HID globe. Big and bright. HID.
> 
> Does everyone need 1850 lumens to ride at night? I guess they don't, but I do. I can't go as fast as I want with a NiteRider Moab for instance. Fast sure, but not as fast as I want. Put a 300-400 lumen LED that the Lupine and the Cateyes probably approach, and you have a significant loss in lumens comparatively. For me that translates to limiting speed due to lighting. I don't believe there is a real reason to limit speed if you don't have to, so I run as much light as I believe reasonable to go as fast as I want.


WOW WOW WOW...Get your facts right first. :nono: Lupine's LED is more then 300-400 lumens. "Probably approach" Pay attention. Guess you haven't heard of the new Wilma, or the new light (still doesn't have a name yet) and the amount of lumens they put out? Do your home work before you go saying things like that :nono:


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## Lumbee1 (Dec 16, 2004)

29Colossus said:


> HID lights are brighter than ANY reasonably available LED light on the market today. LED lights may do other things better, but they are NOT better in the brighter department. I run 1850 lumens on the bars. You would need a battery of Cateye shot LEDs to match that output. I do it with a 30w HID globe. Big and bright. HID.


Since everyone agrees that both helmet and bar mount are better than one or the other, let's do some math.
6 CREE's on the bar, 6 CREE's on the helmet
P4 CREE = ~84 lumens each @ 350mA
84 lumens * 220% (1A efficiency) = 184.80 lumens each
184.80 lumens * 90% (estimating losses through converter and optics) = 166.32 lumens each
166.32 lumens * 6 CREE's = 997.92 lumens 
997 lumens on the bar and 997 lumens on the helmet = a LOT more light than HID. The LED's are dimmable, lighter, can be turned on and off easily, and are much more abuse resistant.

BTW, 1850 lumens on the bars on Eastern singletrack will get you killed. The rider would never see the twists and turns due to the forward facing light. Also, that amount of light would kill any night vision and the chance of spotting the trail or upcoming obstacles around corners.


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## zen bicycle (Mar 23, 2007)

And don't forget about the SSC p4 rated at 240 LM @1amp

using same calcs 6 put out 1296 lumens I would say 1200 very conservative with my DIY 6 setup.

12 would put out 2400- 2500 lumens

Battery packs are relatively small compared to HID and are dimmable, tough and cooler running.

HID is a great technology, LED has just knocked it off the top spot now.


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## Lumbee1 (Dec 16, 2004)

Just wait till the Luxeon line comes out. 100+ lumens at 350mA.


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## zen bicycle (Mar 23, 2007)

the Rebel line is out at 100 lm at 350mA, but only gets up to 180 LM at 750mA according to the binning guide. Are you referring to this or another Luxeon line?


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> WOW WOW WOW...Get your facts right first. :nono: Lupine's LED is more then 300-400 lumens. "Probably approach" Pay attention. Guess you haven't heard of the new Wilma, or the new light (still doesn't have a name yet) and the amount of lumens they put out? Do your home work before you go saying things like that :nono:


Did you say anything at all? Did you offer ANYTHING at all? No... you didn't offer any information whatsoever. No facts. No lumen numbers... NOTHING.

Here... let me do YOUR work for you. The new Wilma at 15w will produce around 800 lumens. Nowhere CLOSE to 1850 lumens. I don't care about lights that don't have names or lights that will be out in 5 years.

So you are right. The new Wilma will put out more than 400 lumens, but even at 800 the difference is nothing to me. I understand it is to you, but since I run 1850 lumens on the bars, the 400 lumen discrepancy in my numbers doesn't change anything for me. The extra 400 doesn't even come close to challenging the 1850.

So not only should you do your own _homework_, you should try and read for comprehension.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Lumbee1 said:


> Since everyone agrees that both helmet and bar mount are better than one or the other, let's do some math.
> 6 CREE's on the bar, 6 CREE's on the helmet
> P4 CREE = ~84 lumens each @ 350mA
> 84 lumens * 220% (1A efficiency) = 184.80 lumens each
> ...


More BS. So I just set-up a 30w HID on the helmet in addition to the one on the bars. 3700 lumens from 2 HID lights. Your LED set-up? A LOT LESS light than the HID. A whole lot. Abuse resistant? :lol: Too funny.



> BTW, 1850 lumens on the bars on Eastern singletrack will get you killed. The rider would never see the twists and turns due to the forward facing light. Also, that amount of light would kill any night vision and the chance of spotting the trail or upcoming obstacles around corners.


I'm sorry, but that is idiocy. Just another excuse in a long litany of excuses for having inferior lighting. _That is too much light, and you will be killed! It is so much light that you can't see!_ What a crack up. That is all that can be said about that. You have obviously never had that kind of light on the trail. I have though, so I have a pretty good idea how it works on ANY singletrack at night.


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

29Colossus said:


> Did you say anything at all? Did you offer ANYTHING at all? No... you didn't offer any information whatsoever. No facts. No lumen numbers... NOTHING.
> 
> Here... let me do YOUR work for you. The new Wilma at 15w will produce around 800 lumens. Nowhere CLOSE to 1850 lumens. I don't care about lights that don't have names or lights that will be out in 5 years.
> 
> ...


If you had been paying attention to what is going on you would have noticed that I have been offering a lot of info of late with facts and figures and LUMENS regarding Lupine's new light, so...

Didn't think I had to explain the new Wilma has 830 lumens, and that the light coming out next month (not 5 years from now) is putting out 1500 lumnes in an LED. Also I don't think I need to explain ALL the advantages of LED over HID. So yeah I did my homework before I stated that... Just didn't want to turn this thread into whos got what and how bright :madman: But...Since you started it... please tell me why you have the best light available


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## zen bicycle (Mar 23, 2007)

ok, I am going to take the bait

The new Wilma that he is referring to puts out about 1500 lumens. not 800

yes you could run two HID's and that is fine, but could you move with the amount of batteries you would have to carry to get the runtime equivalent.

Sure you can do whatever you want as far a light output. 
See this thread.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=251876&highlight=HID+lumens

If you want to carry around a 7 lb battery for 2 hours of run time.

Or you can run 6 led's and get more light than the average HID

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=3247716&postcount=29

It is all about balance, weight, efficiency, and usability.

Can you use 2 HID 3 HID or 37 LED's absolutely.

But this is the question. How much have HID's progressed in Lumen output and efficiency and durability in the last 18 months?

Flame on


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

29Colossus said:


> More BS. So I just set-up a 30w HID on the helmet in addition to the one on the bars. 3700 lumens from 2 HID lights. Your LED set-up? A LOT LESS light than the HID. A whole lot. Abuse resistant? :lol: Too funny.
> 
> I'm sorry, but that is idiocy. Just another excuse in a long litany of excuses for having inferior lighting. _That is too much light, and you will be killed! It is so much light that you can't see!_ What a crack up. That is all that can be said about that. You have obviously never had that kind of light on the trail. I have though, so I have a pretty good idea how it works on ANY singletrack at night.


This guy cracks me up. "Inferior lighting", huge HID lights sound like inferior lighting. What happens when you wreck and land on that huge bulb of yours? I'm curious, because I always have people sending back Edison's with broken bulbs because they mistakenly dropped them, not even wrecked on them, just dropped them.


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

zen bicycle said:


> ok, I am going to take the bait
> 
> The new Wilma that he is referring to puts out about 1500 lumens. not 800
> 
> ...


Not trying to flame you, just want to make something clear. Wilma is 830 lumens. The new light (no name yet) is the 1500 lumen light. Thats all


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## zen bicycle (Mar 23, 2007)

OK, fun time is over

back on topic

You need both. I would take less or equivalent lumens with helment and bar mounts than more with a single mount point.

Depth perception makes a huge difference on the speed you can carry both apparent and real.

Sorry about the misquote on the output of Wilma Todd :thumbsup:


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## zen bicycle (Mar 23, 2007)

Sorry I couldn't let it go
I tried I really tried



29Colossus said:


> Did you say anything at all? Did you offer ANYTHING at all? No... you didn't offer any information whatsoever. No facts. No lumen numbers... NOTHING.
> 
> Here... let me do YOUR work for you. The new Wilma at 15w will produce around 800 lumens. Nowhere CLOSE to 1850 lumens. I don't care about lights that don't have names or lights that will be out in 5 years.
> 
> ...


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

> ok, I am going to take the bait


Classic. Now it is just trolling? Because you can't deal with the discussion, you feel the need to demean it? Grow up or step down. I don't think you have much experience with different lights.



> The new Wilma that he is referring to puts out about 1500 lumens. not 800


You are incorrect. I suggest you go check the information out that is provided on the website instead of spouting ignorance. I also don't care about new lights with no names that are not available right now.



> yes you could run two HID's and that is fine, but could you move with the amount of batteries you would have to carry to get the runtime equivalent.


Move? Are you for real? So let me get this straight. If my batteries allowed 5.5 hours of run time each, and they do, and let's say they weighed 5lbs each... and they are not even close to that at 1.9lbs each, that means that I couldn't move? That is madness. Do you not see that? 4lbs of batteries in a 15lb CamelBak? OMG! I can't MOVE!

Hyperbole plain and simple. Irrational at best.

The HID is superior. It is brighter. Are some LED lights brighter than some HID lights? Sure, but we all know that the better HID lights out there are brighter than ANY of the better LED lights available today.



> Sure you can do whatever you want as far a light output.
> See this thread.
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...ght=HID+lumens
> 
> If you want to carry around a 7 lb battery for 2 hours of run time.


More hyperbole, or just unbounded ignorance? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that it is hyperbole. Two of my lights? Less than 4lbs of batteries. 5.5 hours of runtime? 1850 lumens PER light? You are either engaged in denial, or you just don't have a clue what you are talking about.



> Or you can run 6 led's and get more light than the average HID


:lol:

I don't care if you mummify the rider and the bike in LED lights. I would be able to EASILY outperform your mummy beam with a small array of 30w HID lights. I mean, how stupid do you need to make it to see the light so to speak?



> It is all about balance, weight, efficiency, and usability.
> 
> Can you use 2 HID 3 HID or 37 LED's absolutely.


Off the deep end of reality. I suppose you can create any type of criteria you like, but LEDs are NOT up to snuff in the brightness department compared to HID when it comes to off-road lights. That is a FACT.



> But this is the question. How much have HID's progressed in Lumen output and efficiency and durability in the last 18 months?


Doesn't matter. My point is still the same. HID technology is far superior to LED technology when it comes to light output. This is a FACT.



> Flame on


If you keep espousing incorrect information, I will continue to counter it. If you feel the need to label it, "flaming", then so be it.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

> This guy cracks me up.


I'm sorry you are so easily amused, but there is really nothing amazing here. When discussing brightness and lumens, HID lights are SUPERIOR to LED lights as it is today. Crack up all you want. It isn't going to change that



> "Inferior lighting"


Yes. INFERIOR. Do you need a dictionary? 1850 lumens. NOTHING on the market compares.



> huge HID lights sound like inferior lighting.


A 30w HID is huge? Hmmm... I beg to differ. My globe is 3.125" long. Huge? Really? No... not huge. Not huge at all. It is 2.5" in diameter. OMG! HUGE! Whatever will I do?

Come on. 3.125x2.5... 1850 lumens. 1.9lb battery. 5.5 hours of runtime. Those are very respectable specifications and the brightest light available today for a bicycle. I'm sorry, but there is no LED system out in today's world I have seen that compares... not to mention it is under 400 bucks.



> What happens when you wreck and land on that huge bulb of yours?


It dents or breaks, or it doesn't? If it breaks, I buy a bulb for 60 bucks or a new globe AND bulb for 150. Done. What happens when a Cateye double shot gets run over by a dump truck?

You are not making any sense. Night riding has it's risks, but the 30w HID globe only removes risk due to the 1850 lumens it produces. It is also very small for it's output. It isn't big so your discourse about damage doesn't produce any points that wouldn't be produced with any other light system. I have never damaged my lights. I have wrecked. It happens and pieces sometimes break. Deal with it.



> I'm curious, because I always have people sending back Edison's with broken bulbs because they mistakenly dropped them, not even wrecked on them, just dropped them.


The 30w MR16 bulb is not easily broken. It is used at 100mph plus at Baja and many other races every year on a myriad of team bikes AND vehicles. The globe is stout, and the output is crazy for such a SMALL light. If it breaks or gets damaged, it is easily replaced for less than than HALF the price of the battery.

I understand if people want to like LED lights for whatever reason that floats their spaceship, but I see no reason to let people espouse the false glory that is the LED riding light today without simple counter.


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## Sisco_28601 (Mar 16, 2007)

zen bicycle said:


> OK, fun time is over
> 
> back on topic
> 
> ...


How can you say "you _need_ both"? There is no doubt that two lights are better than one, but you make it sound like one cannot ride at night unless they have both a helmet and a handlebar light. That's just plain wrong.:nono:

With very limited experience, I race with one HID on my helmet and I turn laps just as fast at night as in the daylight. I enjoy myself and see no need for a second light source at this time (other than as a backup maybe).


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

29Colossus, you are using the Welch Allyn MR16 on your light? There is a reason why companies like Lupine have moved away from relying on there bulbs. Thats also why more and more companies are trying to make brighter LED's. The quality of there product is not like it used to be. When every other bulb you get doesn't work you will know what I'm talking about. Lupine had the option to build a new Edison using that bulb, and combined with there special ballast they would have produced a HID brighter then yours. And I know your gonna say " I 'm not having any problems with my light now" give it time you will see what I'm talking about. 

Enough said...


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## clifbar (Mar 14, 2007)

Wow, 
There is a lot of misinformation floating around out here. 
First to stay on topic, Helmet or Bars is personal preference. I prefer both with a stornger ligth on the bars to give definition to the features of the trail, (rocks, roots etc), and a smaller light on the helmet. 

Now back off topic. 

One light is not superior to any other light. Again it is personal preference. I prefer LED because all three of the big three high power LEDs currently available, (K2, Cree XRE and Seoul P4) put out more lumens per watt than HID or halogen. This means you will be able to get the same amount of light with less battery. Less battery means less weight.
LEDs are also less prone to damage. I have a spare bulb for my HID light that was like 25 bucks. My LED will not break unless I drive over it with a car or truck. 
I currently use an HID on the bars and a 1 K2 light on the helmet, and it is plenty of light for all but the gnarliest of singletrack downhills. I can't say I've ever been on a trail that would require me to have over 1200 lumens of light. I'd rather have 600 lumens and more life or smaller batteries. 

So in conclusion, LED, while I'm not saying it is superior to HID, IS more dimmable, less fragile and brighter for the same power consumption. It's my choice.
Good luck with your choice
Jeff
p.s. I rode very twisty singletrack with some fast downhill singletrack and some doubletrack mixed in the other night with one [email protected] light on the bars and one on the helmet. That equals about 240 lumens total and I was fine.


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## zen bicycle (Mar 23, 2007)

Sorry that wasn't my intention at all. I should have stated that as a personal preference. I ride with both a single helmet mount a bar mount or both on trails and road. The two light sources give me infinite more confidence in my riding as the helmet mount fills in any gaps/field where the handlebar set does not go. Corners/ bobcat in the bushes whatever. It also gives me much better depth perception as I have two sets of shadows to compare against. I guess my point was that for the cost of a high end single HID you could get 2 or even more maybe LED systems and get both a helmet and a bar mount eliminating the question. You do bring up a good point about a backup light. Not that you will ever need it, but the one time you do it will suck big time.

It is a personal preference along with the types of trails you ride and until you try it at night on your trails you will not know which if the three options works best for you end of story.

Bottom line should be get out there and ride at night with a flashlight in your teeth if you have to it is fun and a whole new experience


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> 29Colossus, you are using the Welch Allyn MR16 on your light? There is a reason why companies like Lupine have moved away from relying on there bulbs. Thats also why more and more companies are trying to make brighter LED's. The quality of there product is not like it used to be. When every other bulb you get doesn't work you will know what I'm talking about. Lupine had the option to build a new Edison using that bulb, and combined with there special ballast they would have produced a HID brighter then yours. And I know your gonna say " I 'm not having any problems with my light now" give it time you will see what I'm talking about.
> 
> Enough said...


I don't really care about why companies have moved from what to what. I am not concerned with the longevity of my lights. They have already proved their worth. I don't replace bulbs because they don't need to be replaced. Never have.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda, will, can.... none of that matters.

What does matter is that my single HID is brighter than ANY LED available on the market. It is brighter than ANY Lupine light with no name or with a name. When it comes down to it, I need a powerful light that I can rely on. That is all I need. My HID not only has more output than any LED available, it has proven itself dependable in the rain and snow.... from 100 degrees to 20 below zero. It has never failed me.

1850 lumens creates a situation as to where you don't need a light on the helmet ever. Not for corners or for anything else. The beam has so much light pouring out and over-pouring out, that you can see anything and everything without issue. Put a MOAB on your head, and you hardly see it... you just turn it off. It doesn't do anything to help. It is overwhelmed.

LED lights are great and they are the present in many applications and the future for others, but if you want the most light out of a bike lighting system that you can get, HID is still the way to go. The LED is just not there yet no matter what it can do at 350mah.


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## clifbar (Mar 14, 2007)

I felt like I had to add,

It has been my experience that anytime posts on message boards state opinions as if they were fact or make blanket statements about something being the "best" of anything, they should be taken with a grain of salt. 

Which light is the best, depends on how you ride and how you use the light.

I can tell you that statements like, "The LED is just not there yet..." when refering to bike lights are just not true. There are thousands of bicyclists riding all kinds of terrain on LED lights. Not everyone who rides at night needs the amount of light that comes from a high end sports car. Just because a light is brighter than any other light doesn't mean it is the 
"best", just the brightest. 

To say, "if you want the most light out of a bike lighting system that you can get, HID is still the way to go." is just an opinion not a fact. And I would argue an opinion not shared by most experienced night riders. I would not consider a light that had a 2.7lb battery to be the getting most out of a lighting system. I would consider it overkill with a boat anchor as a battery. But this is just my opnion. 

If someone asks for advice as a newbie or beginner I think it is probably more helpful to talk about your opnions about why you like what you use, rather than talking about the fact that your way is so much better than any other way anyone could come up with. I remember doing that in grade school. 

But again as I said that is just my opinion


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

...and back on topic, no matter which type of light source you choose  having both helmet and bar mounted lights is optimal. Some folks mix LED and HID and don't get too emotional about it. 

29Colossus: Glad you enjoy your HID... and you should... nothing wrong with that. But please respect the original topic post in this thread and try not to stimulate another HID -vs- LED flame war. If that's your desire, start a new thread please.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

clifbar said:


> I felt like I had to add,
> 
> It has been my experience that anytime posts on message boards state opinions as if they were fact or make blanket statements about something being the "best" of anything, they should be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> ...


One thing that is a fact though is that the currently available and highest output HID lights are BRIGHTER than the currently available highest output LED lights. It is a fact that can't be argued. Pick a company. Pick a light. It isn't going to happen. Another fact is that that same HID light is much cheaper than a LED with half the output.

I think it can also be said that 2000 lumens is NOT a lot of light when ripping down a trail at 30mph. The sun is a lot of light, and 2000 lumens is bright, but it isn't a lot of light... it is a fun amount of light.  It isn't even close to overkill, and I doubt that is really all that possible/reasonable taking into consideration the limitations involved in lighting a bike.

If you ride a bike fast by daylight, and you want to ride it fast at night, you need as much light as you can possibly get. Sure you want it to be easy to use and work well, but that is simply relative to the user. I had no issue modifying my mount for instance. Some people might no be capable of that.

Let's just take a look at what we get when we look into weights and runtimes and outputs in lumens and in greenbacks when trying to match just the Lupine to the 30w HID.

1 bar mounted 30w HID, 1850 lumens with 5.5 runtime battery. Battery is 1.9lbs. Globe: 15oz.

2.8lbs. That will run you right at 400 bucks.

Or....

I suppose it will have to be 2 Wilma 8s? The new ones... what are they? 830 lumens? So that is 1660 lumens. Still a ways from 1850, but we can call it even. 2 batteries at 5.5 runtime... 1160grams... or 2.6lbs.... the light itself? 2oz... Less output, same weight. 2.8lbs. All we are left with is more wires and mounts and junk for less output. Then there is the cashola. Holy ******.

So let's see... ONE new 830 lumen Wilma 8 will run me 708.00 in the USofA... so that is 1416.00 for less light output. 

400 for one light on the bars that is so bright, other lights are literally drowned, or 1416.00 for close to the same light in two lights and more than 3 times the money spent? ...and this is for what some would consider to be _ridiculous_ light outputs. I could be comparing one 700 buck Lupine to one 199 buck HID and still probably come out ahead on lumens, weight, and cost with the HID.

LED lights have their place. They just don't quite have one with me yet. This is especially the case if I have to have a light on my helmet and my bars to match what I have just on the bars right now.

:thumbsup:


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

achesalot said:


> 29Colossus: Glad you enjoy your HID... and you should... nothing wrong with that. But please respect the original topic post in this thread and try not to stimulate another HID -vs- LED flame war. If that's your desire, start a new thread please.


I will discuss the topic how I desire. I don't need your assistance in the matter. Thanks.

I am sorry that you feel the need to constrain the topic. I don't feel that need, and will continue to discuss the topic how I see fit. I will have to ask you to respect other's interpretation and discussion of the topic please.

Feel free to ignore anything and everything I have to say. It is your choice.

Thanks again.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

29Colossus said:


> I will discuss the topic how I desire. I don't need your assistance in the matter. Thanks.
> 
> I am sorry that you feel the need to constrain the topic. I don't feel that need, and will continue to discuss the topic how I see fit. I will have to ask you to respect other's interpretation and discussion of the topic please.
> 
> ...


I see.


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## norm (Feb 20, 2005)

Another vote for the helmet mount. I have both helmet/bar mount and usually only use the helmet mount. I have the Niterider Enduro-HID and very happy with it. Would buy it again.


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## achesalot (Nov 8, 2005)

If I had to have only one light, it would be a helmet mount as well... it's good to have the light shining where you are looking, but some lighting in the peripheral vision is also desirable. So if nothing else, a good bright light on the helmet (HID or bright LED) and perhaps a weaker flood on the bars (halogen or cheaper LED) would be a good compromise.


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## presslab (Jan 5, 2007)

:lol: Guys, I'm guessing you don't know 29Colossus. He can be pretty opinionated. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not worth arguing with him.

He has a point though. The TrailTech 30W HID is a beast. You can never have too much light! :yesnod: Obviously he feels the extra light is worth the added weight. I use a smaller 3 LED based light and it works for me.

In small lumen output devices LEDs are more efficient that HID, with LEDs pushing 100 lumen/watt and HID at around 60. However as soon as you try to get a single LED emitter to output more than a couple watts the efficiency goes way down. So you end up with these monstrous things with 6+ LED emitters, all with their own optics. Less than ideal for sure.

Anyway to each their own, but in my opinion it will be a while before LEDs topple HID in the > 20W lights.


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## STS01 (Dec 29, 2005)

I've been ignoring the babble of *29Colossus* but I'll buy into this one...



presslab said:


> In small lumen output devices LEDs are more efficient that HID, with LEDs pushing 100 lumen/watt and HID at around 60. However as soon as you try to get a single LED emitter to output more than a couple watts the efficiency goes way down. *So you end up with these monstrous things with 6+ LED emitters, all with their own optics*. Less than ideal for sure.
> 
> *Anyway to each their own, but in my opinion it will be a while before LEDs topple HID in the > 20W lights*.


'monstrous things'? I'm guessing you missed the bit about the new Lupine being 54mm diameter and outputing 1500 lumens....

I think the whole point of the argument about LED vs HID is that it is highly likely that it will, in fact, be a very short time until LEDs topple HID in every category. It's only about a year since we were using LEDs putting out about 60 lumens, now Cree XR-Es and the Seoul are producing >200 lumens per emitter. If this rate of progress continues (which , admittedly, it may not) the 2009 Lupine LED of the same size could well be putting out 3000 lumens with no size, weight or burn time penalty and HID will go the way of the gas street lamp. :thumbsup:


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## presslab (Jan 5, 2007)

I guess I'm slightly anti-hype. LEDs have been marketed for years as "more efficient" but it simply was not true until just recently. 54mm is pretty big if you ask me. How much does that thing weigh? What would it feel like on your helmet? VERY cool, I agree! But better than HID? :skep: 

What about the price of that new Lupine light? $1100 for the 2 hour version! I guess it doesn't topple HID in the $$$ category. :lol:


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

presslab said:


> I guess I'm slightly anti-hype. LEDs have been marketed for years as "more efficient" but it simply was not true until just recently. 54mm is pretty big if you ask me. How much does that thing weigh? What would it feel like on your helmet? VERY cool, I agree! But better than HID? :skep:
> 
> What about the price of that new Lupine light? $1100 for the 2 hour version! I guess it doesn't topple HID in the $$$ category. :lol:


Hey man I don't know where you are getting price quotes and burntime quotes :eekster: But you shouldn't go around assuming things like that till they have been stated. At no time did Lupine state that this light, or any of there lights were in competion in the price market with HID's. Please tell me if I'm wrong, but myself or anyone at Lupine never stated that. So... watch what your quoting...


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## Lumbee1 (Dec 16, 2004)

presslab, are you comparing 5mm or Lux1 LED's to HID?!?! Have you seen achesalot's design with CREE and Seoul LED's?

I could not imagine a group ride where one of the riders has 1850 lumens mounted on his helmet and wanted to stop and talk. That would be 1850 lumens in your eyes.


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## presslab (Jan 5, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Hey man I don't know where you are getting price quotes and burntime quotes :eekster: But you shouldn't go around assuming things like that till they have been stated. At no time did Lupine state that this light, or any of there lights were in competion in the price market with HID's. Please tell me if I'm wrong, but myself or anyone at Lupine never stated that. So... watch what your quoting...


Haha, ok, I'll watch it. :lol:  I used the prices (converted from Euro) and the battery size found on Lupine's forums. Do you think I pulled those numbers from my butt? You guys are doing a lot of assuming as well with the claim of 1500 lumens and all that junk. Until the product is released who really knows? I do know that powerful HID lamps are here right now.

I really don't care if Lupine wants it to compete with HID. The new Lupine is a sweet light, no doubt! My message was in response to STS01 who implied that LED technology was going to topple HID in a very short time. I guess you didn't pick that up.


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## presslab (Jan 5, 2007)

Lumbee1 said:


> presslab, are you comparing 5mm or Lux1 LED's to HID?!?! Have you seen achesalot's design with CREE and Seoul LED's?
> 
> I could not imagine a group ride where one of the riders has 1850 lumens mounted on his helmet and wanted to stop and talk. That would be 1850 lumens in your eyes.


In fact I have a DIY lamp with three Cree XR-E LEDs and I'm quite pleased with it. I have also designed a custom SCUBA lamp with an Ostar LED.

You bring up a good point in that someone with a light much brighter/dimmer than the others in your group will cause problems. It is the same in cave diving; someone with a brighter light can wash out the light signals from other divers.


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

presslab said:


> Haha, ok, I'll watch it. :lol:  I used the prices (converted from Euro) and the battery size found on Lupine's forums. Do you think I pulled those numbers from my butt? You guys are doing a lot of assuming as well with the claim of 1500 lumens and all that junk. Until the product is released who really knows? I do know that powerful HID lamps are here right now.
> 
> I really don't care if Lupine wants it to compete with HID. The new Lupine is a sweet light, no doubt! My message was in response to STS01 who implied that LED technology was going to topple HID in a very short time. I guess you didn't pick that up.


Kind of sounded like you pulled it from your butt. The price in euro with the conversion doesn't mean that is the US retail price, and I still don't know where you are getting 2hrs of burn time on the top model. No where that I know of have burn times been quoted yet, they are still working on that. That would also mean 2hrs runing off a 13.8ah battery, and that def doesn't sound right. We are not doing any assuming here. What ever I stated can be backed up with fact, I don't think I said anything IMO, except that I prefer LED over HID, and that is IMO. I read your whole post, and I'm just trying to set the record strait before crazy rumors start flying. No ofense to you or anyone else, just trying to keep things on the up and up.


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## presslab (Jan 5, 2007)

Well, most lumen numbers are pretty much rule of thumb anyway. The light manufacturers take the LED manufacturer's spec's (which are somewhat suspect anyway) and then add optics to it and then claim the lumen output of the lamp is the same as the LED spec's. That's wrong, the optics are nowhere near 100% efficient. I'll believe lumen output spec's of a lamp when they show me the actual data taken by using a NIST certified integrating sphere and detector. Which I doubt 99% of the lamp manufacturers have actually done that.

The thread I am referring to is here:
http://www.lupine-lights.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1291

The 830 Euro ($1100) lamp is 6.8Ah. Lupine's other 6.8Ah batteries are 7.2V. A bit of assumption on my part, but they likely use the same batteries. That's about 48 watt-hours. Their max power level is 22 watts, which I assume is LED power. The converter is likely 90% efficient. That 's two hours of run time.

And why are people in this thread stating 1500 lumens from this light when that thread states >1400? There are no facts yet.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> and I still don't know where you are getting 2hrs of burn time on the top model. No where that I know of have burn times been quoted yet, they are still working on that.


The Wilma 8 with the new 830 lumen output has a 5.5 hour burntime. If you are talking about lights that don't exist yet... well I don't know.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

OK, this topic has gone to hell but anyway

To the original poster:

You have to ask yourself first:

1-what kind of terrain you ride (how technical, turns, flat, speed, etc)
2-how much light do you need
3-do you want/need the best or the average is OK?

#1 is important since in technical terrain, the bar mount gives you more depth perception (more shadows); in twistie sp? the helmet help you to look aound the corners.

#2 I can tell you that depending on the conditions stated in #1, you could ride with different amounts of light and it's NOT NECESSARY to ride always with the most bright light. I rode 5 years with a JETLITE phantom helmet (halogen 12W) and it was enough for fast AM, jumps, etc. Now I have an HID L&M and it is nice but A LOT of light (around 500-600 lumens?) I really can't imagine 1000+ lumens for other than fast DH (JUST MY OPPINION)

#3 it's all about preferences. I change my halogen just because the yellow color was starting to look weird when I rode with LED/HID people (I thought that I was going to run out of juice) plenty of light if you ride alone, just not fashionable anymore and that it was spot and I wanted a more flooded spill

LED are the new thing, if you find something that you like, go for it. If you have the money look for LUPINE (watch light pattern, also important like flood or spot) or DINOTE.
They are very light and have enough light so don't worry to have the most amout of light, just match it with what YOU need

Enjoy the night!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:


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## Johnny Hair Boy (Jul 11, 2004)

To aswer the Original question I perfer both but if I only have 1 it has to be helmet mount.
I dont want to restart the pi$$ing match but is there an LED light that is brighter and has a good long beem than my Nite Rider rage. I love this light but my next light might be LED if there are good options.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Johnny Hair Boy said:


> To aswer the Original question I perfer both but if I only have 1 it has to be helmet mount.
> I dont want to restart the pi$$ing match but is there an LED light that is brighter and has a good long beem than my Nite Rider rage. I love this light but my next light might be LED if there are good options.


Get the new Wilma 8 with 830 lumens. That would be more than your Rage. More light, and more money.

Over 700.00 for the Wilma 8.

I go faster and can see more with the light on the bars so if I was wanting more light, and my existing light was up on my head, I would move it to the bars first. But then my mission at night is to go fast. If that is not your goal, then it doesn't matter where you put the light.


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## Johnny Hair Boy (Jul 11, 2004)

The trails are so twisty where I ride that a bar light unless paired with a helmet light is usless. I run a small LED on the bars just for some flood right in front of the wheel, I would never put my main light on the bas. If I rode wied open trails that might be different.


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## akashra (Dec 30, 2006)

The first nighttime race I did I had my Switchback 2 on the handlebars. Ever since I ran it on the helmet which gave far better results. My nighttime pace when I last attempted in daylight was about 45 seconds quicker than nighttime (on a ~10 minute crit course).

I now own a set of AY UP! lights which I'll be using on both the handlebars and helmet, which each provide about the same amount of light.

On the handlebars you really want something in a flood configuration.


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## clifbar (Mar 14, 2007)

akashra
How do you like the Ay-up lights? I've been very interested in them ever since I saw them. I've also heard that they are going to be offering an upgrade to seoul leds. 
I'd love to hear your thought


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## akashra (Dec 30, 2006)

Actually... I haven't used them yet.
Mine arrived the day after I broke my collarbone, so I've spent the last 6 weeks lending them out to friends who have forgotten lights or wanted a second etc. I'll be able to try them out on the road for the first time sometime this week.
However all who I've lent them out to have had reasonably positive feedback, and considering they're virtually identical to the SB2 I'd been using, they're quite good. The only thing I would like is a flood version.
The main difference is that the AY UP uses a straight Luxeon III, whereas the SB2 uses regulated Luxeon IIIs.

I haven't officially heard about the upgrade, but I'm emailing Andrew now so will find out what he has to say about this


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## STS01 (Dec 29, 2005)

presslab said:


> I really don't care if Lupine wants it to compete with HID. The new Lupine is a sweet light, no doubt! My message was in response to STS01 who implied that LED technology was going to topple HID in a very short time. I guess you didn't pick that up.


Seems that time is sooner rather than later:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=318696

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=166848

That 1500 lumen LED just got the potential to be a 2250 lumen light :eekster:


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## akashra (Dec 30, 2006)

clifbar said:


> akashra
> How do you like the Ay-up lights? I've been very interested in them ever since I saw them. I've also heard that they are going to be offering an upgrade to seoul leds.
> I'd love to hear your thought


I just wanted to clarify something on this post, as I've contacted Ay Up! regarding this:

Wherever the rumor came from that they'll be upgrading to Seoul LEDs, it is incorrect. A new revision will be announced some time in the near future of an upgraded version sporting Cree LEDs, but there are no plans for a Seoul based version.


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## clifbar (Mar 14, 2007)

The "rumor" came from Andrew at Ay-up. I sent Ay-up an email asking if they were going to be offering higher power leds such as the Seoul, and I recieved a reply stating,
"Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your interest in Ay Up!
There is an upgrade coming out in the next month or two. Existing
customers will be offered all upgrades at a reduced price.
Hope this helps"

I guess since I mentioned Seouls and was told about the upgrade, I assumed Seouls, but either way they appear to be going with higher power leds in the near future.


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## Locoman (Jan 12, 2004)

*ignore*

ignore


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## Teufelhunde (May 19, 2007)

*Bought the Nite Hawk K2*

Well,

This thread kinda wandered all over the place. I finally ended up buying the Nite Hawk K2. Seemed like a good bang for the buck. It arrived last night, and even though I didn't have the opportunity to go riding, I did take it outside in full dark, and it really does a good job of lighting up the night. I think I will try both mounts (it comes with both) and see which does the best for me and my style of riding. My thanks to all for the input.

Teu


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## thasingletrackmastah (Nov 15, 2005)

Using a helmet AND a bar light solves a lot of problems, backup included.
If possible use both.
I think led's are the best choice for mtb.
DIY gives you the latest technology at the lowest price.
And with leds DIY is relative uncomplicated.

Can't wait 'till winter sets in...


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

Teufelhunde said:


> Well,
> 
> This thread kinda wandered all over the place. I finally ended up buying the Nite Hawk K2. Seemed like a good bang for the buck. It arrived last night, and even though I didn't have the opportunity to go riding, I did take it outside in full dark, and it really does a good job of lighting up the night. I think I will try both mounts (it comes with both) and see which does the best for me and my style of riding. My thanks to all for the input.
> 
> Teu


Nite Hawk K2?? hummmmmmm, have one thread by there in this forum of a forumer that tuned this light with seouls, I think remember... with a great result...:aureola:

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## Teufelhunde (May 19, 2007)

msxtr said:


> Nite Hawk K2?? hummmmmmm, have one thread by there in this forum of a forumer that tuned this light with seouls, I think remember... with a great result...:aureola:
> 
> Greetings - Saludos
> 
> msxtr


 As is, it lites up the night pretty well as far as I'm concerned. The bar mount works OK, will be going out tomorrow morning with the lamp on the helmet to give that a try.............

Teu


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## TrekJeff (Oct 12, 2006)

Anyone ever run a red/amber filter on thier helmet light? Filtering it actually brings back a bit of depth. Just a little info for ya via my military experience.


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

TrekJeff said:


> Anyone ever run a red/amber filter on thier helmet light? Filtering it actually brings back a bit of depth. Just a little info for ya via my military experience.


There don't are forbid run with a frontal light different of white light?? moreover if the cars you see with amber of red light they thought that you are circulate in forbid direction and could are very dangerous...

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

msxtr said:


> There don't are forbid run with a frontal light different of white light?? moreover if the cars you see with amber of red light they thought that you are circulate in forbid direction and could are very dangerous...
> 
> Greetings - Saludos
> 
> msxtr


That hurt so bad.

:madman:


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## TrekJeff (Oct 12, 2006)

msxtr

Makes sence. How about red/amber glasses?


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## Huph (Feb 26, 2006)

I use a single helmet mounted light. It shines where I look. I can see where the trail goes.

Have played with lower powered bar mount light for climbing so that I need less battery capacity for my main light. But it hasn't really rocked my world.

I have been using a home made halogen (20w irc or35w irc) with a LeadAcid battery.

I seriously considered a HID a year or so back, but I figured out that I like night-riding because it is different to day time riding. More light was not the answer, so I have stuck with my old faithful setup. It is probably this same reason I don't mind the depth perception thingie of a single light source on my helmet. I feel HID's are a bit too fragile too.

I am thinking about swapping to a LED system for the next winter down here in NZ. Mainly because of the less weight through need less battery capacity and changing to NMh or LiIon batteries. I believe this is the future.


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

TrekJeff said:


> msxtr
> 
> Makes sence. How about red/amber glasses?


Sorry, I don't understand it you want said to me.

if you said me if I use red or amber lens of glasses?? yes I have used red and amber lens, but by night with her I see worse of transparent lens.

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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