# eMTB Trail Etiquette?



## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

I notice there's a fair amount of disdain and outright hatred towards e-biking, and especially towards motorized biking on trails. Can those who ride on trails with non-motorized riders, equestrians, hikers, etc give some tips and etiquette advice on how to keep harmony on the trails? 

I imagine one piece of advice is keeping motor noise to a minimum while out in nature, since that can really take away from the experience of others. And not blasting by people on climbs.. though do you just wait or how do you deal with situations like that?

Thanks for the tips!


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

This video covers the basics.


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

thanks, I figured there would be a good EMBN video but I searched the wrong term:thumbsup:


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

regular bikes can make plenty of noise too, like my hope freehub. i don't ride an ebike on trails but on the street if I'm passing someone I make sure to have plenty of space and I will ride behind people and wait for an opportunity. On an ebike I am more relaxed and patient because the power is there where on a regular bike the last thing I want to do it slow down and have to accelerate again.

if you really want to rip up the trails try going out early or on a weekday when it's not so populated. when it comes to horses well they do-do what they want and I would just get out of their way. I really try to slow to hikers on my mountain bike and like said not blast by people.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

frantik! said:


> I notice there's a fair amount of disdain and outright hatred towards e-biking, and especially towards motorized biking on trails.


I am not a fan of e-bikes, but assuming you are riding on trails that are legal for motorized vehicles I would just:

1. say Hi
2. wait for a wide enough section of trail to pass safely
3. hang back so you aren't riding the mountain biker's butt while you wait
4. say something friendly as you pass and go about your day

On a related note I go out of my way to be nice to hikers. I slow right down and often stop for them. That alleviates the fear I am riding out of control and shows them I am not into my own enjoyment over their experience. I'll chat with them about what a great day it is to be out and wish them well, etc... Even a small friendly connection makes a big difference in how someone perceives you.

I'm always thinking what would that person say to their spouse/friend when they get home about our interaction?

If you can't pass safely I would just wait. It's not the mountain biker's responsibility to stop and let you by. Once they know you are there they may offer to do so, but I wouldn't demand they get out of their climbing rhythm so you can ride faster on an e-bike.

If I am descending and I run into a slower rider on tight single track I'll let them know I am there and then just ride behind them slowly until I can safely pass or they let me by. If it's painfully slow I'll just stop and let a gap build then keep going. To me that's essentially the same scenario as an e-biker coming up on a mountain biker on a climb.

I applaud you thinking about the issue and looking for ways to maintain trail harmony. :thumbsup:


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

> assuming you are riding on trails that are legal for motorized vehicles


yeah, I don't expect anybody to be friendly if you're poaching a trail, just like if you bring a non motorized bike on trail that is only for hikers.

Some good advice in here, keep it coming!


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

e or not don't be a dick. 

The old IMBA rule of yielding ROW to uphill traffic seems to have been overruled now so I try and be aware of that as I almost have gotten run off the trail by "gasp" mtb'rs on go pro flow a few times.


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

There is no difference between ebikes and regular mountain bikes when it comes to trail etiquette we should all be kind and courteous to other trail users regardless of what we are on with that said there is some good advice here so far !

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Simple, show a little pity for the regular bikers and let them go first/don't pass them, ever. Works for me, and if you do pass by them while they're taking a break on the side of the trail, pant heavily as you slowly go by, don't make it look easy. I'm serious.

As far as horses, stay the hell away from them, as far as possible, on any bike! Hikers I treat with respect and friendliness, and when I pass them I go as slow as possible and let them know I'm passing. I have yet to ever get a negative reaction, for real, just the keyboard warriors make it sound worse then it is. I ride legal BTW. But the trails here are multi use so no issues other then good natured "cheating" comments, and they are right, I am, but not causing any problems and am having fun.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

no need for pity. i ebike for commuting so I have energy for trails rides. If someone flies past me on an ebike no problem. it can be done on a regular bike too depending on the rider.


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## kneecap (Dec 20, 2003)

I do everything, especially all four numbers that vikb posted! great post btw.


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## JMac47 (Apr 23, 2004)

Trail etiquette is trail etiquette regardless of your mode.


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

Exactly!!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## ELBURRO (Jun 3, 2006)

My trick is to switch to no power mode [Levo] therefore creating no motor noise.

Sometimes gotta dig deep if it's an uphill to get past but if they're coming in opposite direction , it just takes a sec of pure leg power, then back to e mode.

Low profile...stealth...be kool !


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Buy them a round or two at your local bike shop bar!


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Poaching was mentioned but am surprised by how many I see on non-motorized trails. Then of course comes the entitlement and vitriol as to why they are there when questioned, so first and foremost don't be "that guy".

What I've run into starting only the last two years or so is people coming up trails at a fairly high rate of speed (for a bicycle) on what have traditionally been downhill oriented trails. Even on trails with gaps and big berms etc that people are clearly going to be coming down at high speeds. You do occasionally get the clueless newb coming up and that's to be expected but those numbers seem to have grown exponentially with the popularity of e-bikes as of late. I see some real conflict brewing on this specific aspect. Especially at mtb specific trail networks which now have e-mtb rental fleets in town.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Gutch said:


> Buy them a round or two at your local bike shop bar!


Solid advice!


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

WHALENARD said:


> Poaching was mentioned but am surprised by how many I see on non-motorized trails. Then of course comes the entitlement and vitriol as to why they are there when questioned, so first and foremost don't be "that guy".
> 
> What I've run into starting only the last two years or so is people coming up trails at a fairly high rate of speed (for a bicycle) on what have traditionally been downhill oriented trails. Even on trails with gaps and big berms etc that people are clearly going to be coming down at high speeds. You do occasionally get the clueless newb coming up and that's to be expected but those numbers seem to have grown exponentially with the popularity of e-bikes as of late. I see some real conflict brewing on this specific aspect. Especially at mtb specific trail networks which now have e-mtb rental fleets in town.


Many non motorized trails allow for eBikes. If you are riding an eBike on a trail with nonregulated acceptance of eBikes, be on your best behavior, and people don't usually care about the nature of your pedalling.

If you are going to chastise someone for riding an eBike, make sure they are riding an eBike and doing so 'illegally'. One of my buddies is constantly accused of riding an eBike (by a ranger even!) when his bottom bracket is just oversized. Don't be "that guy"!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

WHALENARD said:


> What I've run into starting only the last two years or so is people coming up trails at a fairly high rate of speed (for a bicycle) on what have traditionally been downhill oriented trails. Even on trails with gaps and big berms etc that people are clearly going to be coming down at high speeds.


Unless a trail is specifically marked as one-way it's the downhill rider that must stop/give right of way to the person climbing. So if you are riding downhill and can't stop in time to avoid a collision it's your fault.

That said a trail with jumps/gaps etc... where you can't ride slow downhill safely probably should be marked as a one-way trail. However, if it's not the person going downhill has to accept the fact they need to avoid a collision with a climber.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

figofspee said:


> Many non motorized trails allow for eBikes. If you are riding an eBike on a trail with nonregulated acceptance of eBikes, be on your best behavior, and people don't usually care about the nature of your pedalling.
> 
> If you are going to chastise someone for riding an eBike, make sure they are riding an eBike and doing so 'illegally'. One of my buddies is constantly accused of riding an eBike (by a ranger even!) when his bottom bracket is just oversized. Don't be "that guy"!


Fair point, it works both ways. I was speaking to a couple networks where they're not allowed and there's pretty extensive signage. If it's clearly a newb that rented one in town I may or may not say something. If it's a seasoned rider that knows better they get to deal with me.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

WHALENARD said:


> Fair point, it works both ways. I was speaking to a couple networks where they're not allowed and there's pretty extensive signage. If it's clearly a newb that rented one in town I may or may not say something. If it's a seasoned rider that knows better they get to deal with me.


There is extensive signage on a trail I frequently ride my eBike, and it is explicitly allowed by the managing agency when I contacted them. You should contact the managing agency before "dealing with anybody". Unless harassing other trail users is your job, you can put yourself in legal jeopardy pretty quickly, or worse, get injured/killed. I don't pull over motor vehicles when they are breaking the speed limit either.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

figofspee said:


> There is extensive signage on a trail I frequently ride my eBike, and it is explicitly allowed by the managing agency when I contacted them. You should contact the managing agency before "dealing with anybody". Unless harassing other trail users is your job, you can put yourself in legal jeopardy pretty quickly, or worse, get injured/killed. I don't pull over motor vehicles when they are breaking the speed limit either.


I'm gonna die now for telling poachers not allowed, lol. These signs are put in place by the management agency.


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

I think we can agree that not riding where it is clearly prohibited is good etiquette


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## sunderland56 (Aug 27, 2009)

vikb said:


> 2. wait for a wide enough section of trail to pass safely


Of course, on a singletrack trail, there is by definition no such thing. You need to wait for the rider in front to yield.

This goes for any bike, motorized or not. But I'm having to rake out more and more places where someone felt the need to pass, ignoring the fact that they're destroying the environment by doing so. Or, people who pull off the trail to allow people to pass - which causes just as much damage.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

vikb said:


> Unless a trail is specifically marked as one-way it's the downhill rider that must stop/give right of way to the person climbing. So if you are riding downhill and can't stop in time to avoid a collision it's your fault.
> 
> That said a trail with jumps/gaps etc... where you can't ride slow downhill safely probably should be marked as a one-way trail. However, if it's not the person going downhill has to accept the fact they need to avoid a collision with a climber.


Yeah, I wouldn't dispute any of that. With some land managers or grant money built trails you may not technically be able to build one way trails yet they are clearly built to be ridden down with a logging road to the top. That's pretty common around these parts actually. Do to steepness and other factors it's been very uncommon for pedal power people to try and ride up them. I'm merely saying motor assisted bikes is changing that dynamic. Also a trail may be labeled at the bottom do no not enter but can have several other cut ins that are not labeled. There's a very popular mtb network I ride where that's the case. Kind of a maze of trails where again traditionally people ride up the logging roads then drop in and down.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

Hilarious encounter with an e-durobro today. 

Such a stereotype - gratuitous calf tats, flannel, over-sized shield-like glasses, and a big ole fanny pack.

I was out of the saddle stretching my legs out on a climb and he came ripping by and chirped - "You're working too hard!" He was really hauling ass, as proven by grabbing the KOM on that climb. I didn't say anything about not being in to crutches...

What's interesting is that on the descent, which has a few pedally sections and short stingers, e-durobro was still slower.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> Many non motorized trails allow for eBikes.


Can you name some of these "many" non-motorized trails where it's legal to ride an electric motor bicycle?

Thanks.


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

og-mtb said:


> Can you name some of these "many" non-motorized trails where it's legal to ride an electric motor bicycle?
> 
> Thanks.


Glad to see you're interested in ebikes now!  From the Norcal E bike thread, fc gave a list of some spots you may see ebikes legally riding


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

og-mtb said:


> I was out of the saddle stretching my legs out on a climb and he came ripping by and chirped - "You're working too hard!" He was really hauling ass, as proven by grabbing the KOM on that climb.


Definitely gotta mark those strava rides as ebike, especially if you're getting close to ranking on the leader boards. And saying anything disparaging to someone on a climb is pretty rude, especially if you're not "working too hard".

If I were passing someone on a climb on a regular bike, I would likely offer some words of encouragement, though I'm not sure how well received those would be on a ebike.. probably better to keep it to a friendly wave or greeting I suppose


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

frantik! said:


> Glad to see you're interested in ebikes now!  From the Norcal E bike thread, fc gave a list of some spots you may see ebikes legally riding


Yo, newb, find someone to help you with the search function lest you continue to play the fool.


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

Man, even in the ebike forum, in a thread dedicated to trying to reduce conflict, you still get ebike haters trying to start drama. :nono:


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

frantik! said:


> Man, even in the ebike forum, in a thread dedicated to trying to reduce conflict, you still get ebike haters trying to start drama. (snip smarmy emoticon)


Ah, the ole "you're a hater" refrain that is all too common in this forum. I was just stating a fact, newb.

I didn't just become interested in electric motor bicycles and their impact on access for normal bikes. That's a silly assumption that you made, being a newb to this forum. If, as I suggested, you were able to search a bit, you would realize how asinine your assumption is.

I asked that question of figofspee because he/she/it have repeatedly made false claims about electric motor bike laws and access.









Again, just the facts.


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

> "you're a hater" refrain that is all too common in this forum


Ah so you're a regular in this forum about a topic you don't like. Cool. Anyways you got something to contribute to the topic? Or do we need to get the supermoderator?


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

frantik! said:


> Ah so you're a regular in this forum about a topic you don't like


More confusion. Where did you get your "topic I don't like" nonsense from?

You're really, really, struggling here.

re: "something to contribute to this topic" ----> go back and read post #26 again.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Trolling down the river... Back to the OP, common sense. 1) Ride Legal. 2) Yield to hikers and uphill bikers. Anything else is up to you, if they don’t like your ebike or whatever, f-them. Most mtbrs are very cool. Most hikers are very cool. Most posters are not!


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Try and stay on-topic and refrain from cheap insults please.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Trolling down the river... Back to the OP, common sense. 1) Ride Legal. 2) Yield to hikers and uphill bikers. Anything else is up to you, if they don't like your ebike or whatever, f-them. Most mtbrs are very cool. Most hikers are very cool. Most posters are not!


 ^^^ This.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

E bikes are not legal on any of the trails around me, but I'd say that on legal trails:

-Do all the usual yielding to uphill riders, hikers, horses, etc that you'd do on a normal bike.

-Restrain yourself from blasting up climbs in turbo and passing a zillion people, or if you want to do that, go out when nobody else is. If you're going faster than the KOM Strava dorks, turn it down a notch. Ride at least vaguely like a normal mountain bike.

-Don't ride uphill on stuff that tons of people prefer to ride down - trails that aren't *officially* one way, but are too steep/rough/unpleasant to climb/super fun to descend. You're just ruining the experience for a bunch of people - though officially what you're doing is perfectly legal, it's still being a dick. Again, if you're going to do that, do it when nobody else is around. 

Same goes on a normal bike, of course - I can flog my brains out and climb/walk some trails that are basically DH trails, and I can get really self-righteous if someone doesn't yield to me, but it's just a jerk move. 

I think if everyone did that stuff, there would be basically no e-bike conflict whatsoever. 

-Walt


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

A lot of great advice given! I was going to buy the new YT Decoy, but it's not available for at least another 2 months. I bought an Intense Tazer and just loving it. I"ve had it about a week and I follow what the majority of people have already stated. So far I prefer ECO and Trail mode over boost. Boost is just to fast for anything but a fireroad. I also noticed that in boost mode going up a fireroad with any decent grade, I've not been able to hit 20mph, usually maybe 12mph tops. 

When I see I'm catching other riders, if I'm in Trail mode, I go into ECO and chill. My trails are mostly single track, so passing is not possible unless the rider pulls over. 
I make it a point to be friendly! Especially if someone were to pull over for me, but I don't expect that and doesn't bother me the least bit. 
If I'm on a fireroad, I slow down and pass a little faster than the rider or other users I'm over taking. Going any faster can frighten other trail users. 
Don't go up trails meant to go down hill.
Downhill an ebike is not an advantage as the motor cuts off at 20mph in the USA. All my single track trails, hitting 20mph is easy. This applies to regular bikes and ebike. I don't expect anyone to yield to me and if I'm coming up on anyone fast, I just slow down or pull over to let that person enjoy the trail.
The main take away is, we are all trail users and we all have the right to enjoy the trails, don't be selfish and put your needs in front of other users.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Walt said:


> E bikes are not legal on any of the trails around me, but I'd say that on legal trails:
> 
> -Do all the usual yielding to uphill riders, hikers, horses, etc that you'd do on a normal bike.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything above except the last sentence. The purists / perfectionists will always hate e-bikes, no matter how polite the e-bikers are on the trail. There will always be a permanent prejudice against them, nothing we can do or say is going to change that.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Walt said:


> E bikes are not legal on any of the trails around me, but I'd say that on legal trails:
> 
> -Do all the usual yielding to uphill riders, hikers, horses, etc that you'd do on a normal bike.
> 
> ...


On that second rule; I'll usually let a mountain biker of average speed pace me about 75 yards ahead by dropping the assist level down a notch. Without my eBike I'm pretty slow so I'm pretty empathetic to the feeling of not wanting to be passed at an inappropriate place by a jerk in a hurry.


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> The purists / perfectionists will always hate e-bikes, no matter how polite the e-bikers are on the trail. There will always be a permanent prejudice against them, nothing we can do or say is going to change that.


I'm sure there will always be people who don't like riding with ebikers, just like there are hikers who are dead set against ever allowing bikes on trails. Can't do much about those people unfortunately, except smile and wave


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

I'm sure there are plenty of threads discussing where it is legal to ride.. let's try to get back to the topic though


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

frantik! said:


> I'm sure there are plenty of threads discussing where it is legal to ride.. let's try to get back to the topic though


Another thread bites the dust. Going, going, gone.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

hikerdave said:


> Another thread bites the dust. Going, going, gone.


Yeah, lame. I mean, they're legal some places. They're not others. In most cases that's not super likely to change in the short/medium term, so why does that have to be the debate every time?

There are significant differences between e-bikes and normal bikes and there are some meaningful things that e-bike riders can/should do differently to be responsible trail users. Good topic - no drama needed.

Why discuss access at all on this thread?

-Walt


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

frantik! said:


> I'm sure there are plenty of threads discussing where it is legal to ride.. let's try to get back to the topic though


This... please stay on topic.


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## bokdoos (Mar 1, 2004)

#1 Have a thick skin and be patient. 
As this thread illustrates there are tons of ignorant, judgemental, closed minded and snarkey riders out there. 

Other than that don't ride up trails that are mainly used for downhill and slow up a bit when passing non-assisted riders going uphill. 

Everything else is basic mtb etiquette.....don't ride like a squid.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

bokdoos said:


> #1 Have a thick skin and be patient.
> As this thread illustrates there are tons of ignorant, judgemental, closed minded and snarkey riders out there.
> 
> Other than that don't ride up trails that are mainly used for downhill and slow up a bit when passing non-assisted riders going uphill.
> ...


Totally agree with this! The stigma is still strong, it might be around permanently.

I once passed by a shuttle group as they were unloading their bikes. A few were giving me that "mean mug" as I rode pass them. Its so ironic its Funny!


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

bokdoos said:


> #1 Have a thick skin and be patient.
> As this thread illustrates there are tons of ignorant, judgemental, closed minded and snarkey riders out there.
> 
> Other than that don't ride up trails that are mainly used for downhill and slow up a bit when passing non-assisted riders going uphill.
> ...


I got a flat on my eBike a few weeks ago and was leisurely checking the tire for thorns at the side of the trail so a lot of bikes passed by. -Every- rider that passed asked if I needed something or needed help. So remember basic trail etiquette; if you're carrying a spare tube be quick to share; you'll get it back eventually.


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

PinoyMTBer said:


> I once passed by a shuttle group as they were unloading their bikes. A few were giving me that "mean mug" as I rode pass them. Its so ironic its Funny!


Wait they were mean-mugging you cause you were riding an ebike? And at the same time they were using a gas motor to get them to the top?


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

bokdoos said:


> don't ride up trails that are mainly used for downhill


I'm planning on using my ebike to get me out to places I've never been before... is there a way to tell if a trail is mostly downhill even if it's not marked? Like maybe avoid the spots where it looks like it would be a pain in the ass to climb unassisted?


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

bokdoos said:


> ...
> Other than that don't ride up trails that are mainly used for downhill and slow up a bit when passing non-assisted riders going uphill.
> 
> Everything else is basic mtb etiquette.....don't ride like a squid.


Those of us who pedal up flow trails under shade trees vs. climbing up steep fireroads in the sun, have unofficially been named "Goobers" on mtbr-norcal. And we're PROUD Goobers! Wouldn't you like to be a goober too?

As for not riding like a squid, that is just not possible when your 7th bestowed nickname is Squidicus Sandbaggerus. I have a reputation to uphold! ;-)

Teasingly,

Catfish ...


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

motocatfish said:


> Those of us who pedal up flow trails under shade trees vs. climbing up steep fireroads in the sun, have unofficially been named "Goobers" on mtbr-norcal. And we're PROUD Goobers! Wouldn't you like to be a goober too?
> 
> As for not riding like a squid, that is just not possible when your 7th bestowed nickname is Squidicus Sandbaggerus. I have a reputation to uphold! ;-)
> 
> ...


Your eBike confers the super power of heat tolerance; suck it up and ride the fire road like everyone else or ride when it's too hot for mere mortals.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Yep! Crazy huh? Emtbs are so misunderstood. Luckily, good people outnumber the bad ones. Just enjoy your ride and respect other trail users. Even the haters


There is no misunderstanding, they have a motor. So people are categorized as bad because they don't subscribe to motorized power for cycling? That's pretty black and white. And there's that "haters" rhetoric again, give it a rest.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Just smile and wave...Happy trails!


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Bike etiquette should be easy, just start with only riding your emtb on trails where it is legal to ride them. If you don't, no matter what follows it will turn to ****.
Pretending not to know is no excuse in the eyes of the law.


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## JohnMcL7 (Jul 26, 2013)

scottxpc said:


> There is no difference between ebikes and regular mountain bikes when it comes to trail etiquette we should all be kind and courteous to other trail users regardless of what we are on with that said there is some good advice here so far !
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Agreed, there's been an e-bike rider or two a few times on our weekly rides and it's been no issue at all with anyone. If someone coming behind you is faster, let them by regardless if they're on an ebike or pedal bike.

Actually to be fair there is a slight difference as I'm relieved when I'm pushing hard on a hill and it's an ebike rider that passes me rather than a non e-bike


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Back to the OP When riding my e bike I always give right of way to reg bikes and hikers its simple for a e bike to get back up too speed so its no big deal to me to stop and wait. Passing should be done like with any bike politely remember if you ride a e bike some of the e haters are just looking for a reason to complain about you and your e bike always be aware of this. Also I carry a lot of tools even spare tubes and a elec air compressor if I see a rider by the trail side I always ask if they need anything .


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

rider95 said:


> Back to the OP When riding my e bike I always give right of way to reg bikes and hikers its simple for a e bike to get back up too speed so its no big deal to me to stop and wait. Passing should be done like with any bike politely remember if you ride a e bike some of the e haters are just looking for a reason to complain about you and your e bike always be aware of this. Also I carry a lot of tools even spare tubes and a elec air compressor if I see a rider by the trail side I always ask if they need anything .


If you yield to a downhill-riding mountain biker an old tip given by Missy Giove in one of the mountain bike magazines might help - when starting uphill, apply the rear brake when you get on the bike and release it to control your traction. This is the most helpful tip I've ever learned about mountain biking anywhere.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> Also I carry a lot of tools even spare tubes and a *elec air compressor* if I see a rider by the trail side I always ask if they need anything .


Holy moly!


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

If this thread keeps getting derailed I'll hand out some detention slips to the offenders.

Trail etiquette shouldn't be determined by what you ride. Ride where it's legal, yield where you have to, don't be a dick and offer encouragement to those you pass on your ride.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Better yet, please kill this thread, all it does is add fuel to the fire.

Nothing new here, just move along...



driver bob said:


> If this thread keeps getting derailed I'll hand out some detention slips to the offenders.
> 
> Trail etiquette shouldn't be determined by what you ride. Ride where it's legal, yield where you have to, don't be a dick and offer encouragement to those you pass on your ride.


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## JMac47 (Apr 23, 2004)

PinoyMTBer said:


> This video covers the basics.


These guys are great! My top view site on youtube now!


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## Structure (Dec 29, 2003)

Seems like a useful topic. E-bikes are not permitted on our local city open spaces (according to the rangers) however, the signage isn’t clear (it says no motorized vehicles but doesn’t specify no e-bikes) so there are a growing number. Most are fine but the uphill closing speed is an issue. When descending one has to really consider that there may be someone climbing the opposite direction at 15-20 mph instead of the more usual 2-3. 

I think I’m still 10-15 years from owning one but it will be good if some of the problems can be worked out by then...


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## JMac47 (Apr 23, 2004)

Structure said:


> Seems like a useful topic. E-bikes are not permitted on our local city open spaces (according to the rangers) however, the signage isn't clear (it says no motorized vehicles but doesn't specify no e-bikes) so there are a growing number. Most are fine but the uphill closing speed is an issue. When descending one has to really consider that there may be someone climbing the opposite direction at 15-20 mph instead of the more usual 2-3.
> 
> I think I'm still 10-15 years from owning one but it will be good if some of the problems can be worked out by then...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In all fairness, and playing the Devils advocate here, nobody's climbing @15-20 mph on an ebike on a fire road where Joe rec rider would normally be going up @2-3 mph. Maybe 5-6mph but not to that extreme.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

A lot of people talk about hypothetical closing speeds, but the real world issue is single track climbing where an e-bike gets right up on the ass of a regular bike rider. 

The simple solution is to control yourself when riding an ebike. Go up fireroads, go down single track. If a certain route requires you to go up single track, don't ride there on the busiest days, and if you happen to see a regular MTB ahead of you, leave a large gap, like 50+ feet. 

Nobody can complain about an ebiker's trail etiquette if they never see you.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

JMac47 said:


> In all fairness, and playing the Devils advocate here, nobody's climbing @15-20 mph on an ebike on a fire road where Joe rec rider would normally be going up @2-3 mph. Maybe 5-6mph but not to that extreme.


Structure seems to be speaking from experience here so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt; I usually climb at your 5-6 mph range but a young and strong rider at max assist could triple this. Probably the guideline could be:

When riding an eBike, reduce your uphill speed wherever line of sight is restricted to preserve the flow and fun of downhill riders.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

driver bob said:


> If this thread keeps getting derailed I'll hand out some detention slips to the offenders.
> 
> Trail etiquette shouldn't be determined by what you ride. Ride where it's legal, yield where you have to, don't be a dick and offer encouragement to those you pass on your ride.


this thread is in the damn e-bike forum

so as mods say...don't diss e-bikes in here.


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## Skiclimbride (Aug 31, 2017)

In addition to the standard trail rules and great advice provided I would suggest e-bike riders carry a fire extinguisher with them. Motors, electronics and lithium batteries have a high fire risk compared to non motorized bikes. Remember all those anti mountain bikers who claimed a chain or sprocket hitting a rock could start a fire. With e-bikes they now have a reasonable concern. Think Samsung phones that caught fire on airplanes and Tesla crashes resulting in fires. If you crash your e-bike(and you will) you now have the potential to start a wild land fire. So please carry a fire extinguisher with you and know how to use it.

I know this should be common sense but the 3 e-bikers I have come across were totally unprepared, no helmets, no water, and no toolkits. One did ask me if I had an extra helmet. 


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Skiclimbride said:


> In addition to the standard trail rules and great advice provided I would suggest e-bike riders carry a fire extinguisher with them. Motors, electronics and lithium batteries have a high fire risk compared to non motorized bikes. Remember all those anti mountain bikers who claimed a chain or sprocket hitting a rock could start a fire. With e-bikes they now have a reasonable concern. Think Samsung phones that caught fire on airplanes and Tesla crashes resulting in fires. If you crash your e-bike(and you will) you now have the potential to start a wild land fire. So please carry a fire extinguisher with you and know how to use it.
> 
> I know this should be common sense but the 3 e-bikers I have come across were totally unprepared, no helmets, no water, and no toolkits. One did ask me if I had an extra helmet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gotta wear a helmet! That's crazy.


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## ruthabagah (Jun 4, 2018)

Skiclimbride said:


> In addition to the standard trail rules and great advice provided I would suggest e-bike riders carry a fire extinguisher with them. Motors, electronics and lithium batteries have a high fire risk compared to non motorized bikes. Remember all those anti mountain bikers who claimed a chain or sprocket hitting a rock could start a fire. With e-bikes they now have a reasonable concern. Think Samsung phones that caught fire on airplanes and Tesla crashes resulting in fires. If you crash your e-bike(and you will) you now have the potential to start a wild land fire. So please carry a fire extinguisher with you and know how to use it.
> 
> I know this should be common sense but the 3 e-bikers I have come across were totally unprepared, no helmets, no water, and no toolkits. One did ask me if I had an extra helmet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope not carrying a fire extinguisher on my ebike. Unless every single users of batteries in the wild (cellphone, GPS, Radio, etc... ) are required to carry one. In addition, the battery on my bikes are better protected against shocks than on most carry on devices out there.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Skiclimbride said:


> In addition to the standard trail rules and great advice provided I would suggest e-bike riders carry a fire extinguisher with them. Motors, electronics and lithium batteries have a high fire risk compared to non motorized bikes. Remember all those anti mountain bikers who claimed a chain or sprocket hitting a rock could start a fire. With e-bikes they now have a reasonable concern. Think Samsung phones that caught fire on airplanes and Tesla crashes resulting in fires. If you crash your e-bike(and you will) you now have the potential to start a wild land fire. So please carry a fire extinguisher with you and know how to use it.
> 
> I know this should be common sense but the 3 e-bikers I have come across were totally unprepared, no helmets, no water, and no toolkits. One did ask me if I had an extra helmet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya, I'm not sure if you're serious or not with this.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Don't forget to carry Mace too for the E haters its sad but after all the e hate I read on here I now ride with my Gopro and a can of mace .


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

rider95 said:


> Don't forget to carry Mace too for the E haters its sad but after all the e hate I read on here I now ride with my Gopro and a can of mace .


Lol scaredy-cat. Just ride where it's legal, and all is well.

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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

vikb said:


> snip
> 
> 1. say Hi
> 2. wait for a wide enough section of trail to pass safely
> ...


This literally works everywhere in the world for anything. 
In the grocery store? Yep.
On the MUP? Yep
On the sidewalk? Yup

Pretty much immaterial to bike type or even bike. This added to yield to uphill, horses, and pedestrians pretty much covers trail riding.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rider95 said:


> Don't forget to carry Mace too for the E haters its sad but after all the e hate I read on here I now ride with my Gopro and a can of mace .


 How about just ride legal and a chill attitude for starters?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

rider95 said:


> Don't forget to carry Mace too for the E haters its sad but after all the e hate I read on here I now ride with my Gopro and a can of mace .


Someone might say something negative to you, but I don't think your personal safety is at risk.


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## bokdoos (Mar 1, 2004)

Skiclimbride said:


> In addition to the standard trail rules and great advice provided I would suggest e-bike riders carry a fire extinguisher with them. Motors, electronics and lithium batteries have a high fire risk compared to non motorized bikes. Remember all those anti mountain bikers who claimed a chain or sprocket hitting a rock could start a fire. With e-bikes they now have a reasonable concern. Think Samsung phones that caught fire on airplanes and Tesla crashes resulting in fires. If you crash your e-bike(and you will) you now have the potential to start a wild land fire. So please carry a fire extinguisher with you and know how to use it.
> 
> I know this should be common sense but the 3 e-bikers I have come across were totally unprepared, no helmets, no water, and no toolkits. One did ask me if I had an extra helmet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


While in theory that could happen are there any cases that have actually happened?

By your logic we should ALL carry fire extinguishers if we have our phone or any other electronic device with us on the trails. Throw disc brakes into the mix too. I've actually seen that happen...a hot disc causing dry grass to smolder. 
No offense but I think that's a ridiculous and impractical recommendation.

At least e-bikes have the tech to sense when there is a short or overheat issue and they shut down. Cell phones not so much.

Now. As for unprepared riders. That is not at all unique to e-bikes. I see plenty of unprepared kooks on regular bikes.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

bokdoos said:


> While in theory that could happen are there any cases that have actually happened?











https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections...s-causing-bush-fire-on-tour-down-under-climb/


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Another rigged ebike. What a waste of a nice Pinarello!


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## Skiclimbride (Aug 31, 2017)

bokdoos said:


> While in theory that could happen are there any cases that have actually happened?
> 
> By your logic we should ALL carry fire extinguishers if we have our phone or any other electronic device with us on the trails. Throw disc brakes into the mix too. I've actually seen that happen...a hot disc causing dry grass to smolder.
> No offense but I think that's a ridiculous and impractical recommendation.
> ...


If my cell phone catches fire (2600-3600mAh) on the trail I will be able to put it out with dirt and my shoes. If your ebike catches fire(10-20ah) this would be much tougher as the fire will be 5-10x, like putting out 5-10 cell phone fires. 
Also since you are riding an ebike the extra weight of being prepared would be negligible. 
As several others posted there are examples of ebikes catching fire and even an ebike company has had 3 fires. 
This suggestion only applies to ebike riders taking their bikes off road where fire department response time is much longer and risk of forest fire is much greater.
If I bought an ebike for off-road I would put an extinguisher on it like I have in my off road vehicle. I don't want to be this guy who has to pay $8m for causing a fire
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna915441

FYI cell phones have overheat tech to shutdown, leave your iPhone out in the sun. Samsung learned this the hard way.

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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

craigsj said:


> Why? Why not require every person to carry an extinguisher at all times? Fire department can't be everywhere!


The chances of my bicycle catching fire is about zero point zero percent, not so little with an e-bike obviously.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't think the chances of a commercial e-bike catching fire in the woods are very high. They're not zero, but they're probably not high enough to justify asking anyone to carry a fire extinguisher.

DIY stuff, who knows. But those people are going to just ignore whatever rules exist anyway. 

-Walt


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Walt said:


> I don't think the chances of a commercial e-bike catching fire in the woods are very high. They're not zero, but they're probably not high enough to justify asking anyone to carry a fire extinguisher.
> 
> DIY stuff, who knows. But those people are going to just ignore whatever rules exist anyway.
> 
> -Walt


It would be fun to install a motor on a Waltworks bike. Which eBike do you own?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

figofspee said:


> It would be fun to install a motor on a Waltworks bike. Which eBike do you own?


I have a Radpower. Might get another one soon, actually, because we have a third kid on the way. I can kinda hang with the wife and kids on my townie right now, but if I have to pull a trailer too... forget it.

I thought about putting a motor on my Bakfiets but it's not really well set up for kid-hauling. Still haven't decided what to do, really.

-Walt


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## bokdoos (Mar 1, 2004)

vikb said:


> View attachment 1250868
> 
> 
> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections...s-causing-bush-fire-on-tour-down-under-climb/


Not some ghetto ass bolt on contraption! I mean a proper class 1 e-bike.


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## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

Walt said:


> I don't think the chances of a commercial e-bike catching fire in the woods are very high. They're not zero, but they're probably not high enough to justify asking anyone to carry a fire extinguisher.
> 
> DIY stuff, who knows. But those people are going to just ignore whatever rules exist anyway.
> 
> -Walt


Also, a fire extinguisher is generally useless for putting out a lithium battery fire. OK it might help to put out a tiny brush fire, but the best solution for a lithium battery fire is to shovel dirt/sand over it. Learned this from many years in RC flying. Caveat is the lipo we use in flying are a fraction the size of the li-ion packs on ebikes, and still can put out a mean helluvvvva flame.

OTOH, RC aircraft do not have any casing protection, nor any short protection circuity. All ebikes, even those chinese bolt-on kits, have metal casings (usually two layers - the cell casings and the whole battery casing) and BMS protective circuitry which helps to mitigate the risk of a battery fire.

so maybe carry a ultralight backpacking trowel. bonus, you can properly cover your poop if need be.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Walt said:


> I don't think the chances of a commercial e-bike catching fire in the woods are very high. They're not zero, but they're probably not high enough to justify asking anyone to carry a fire extinguisher.
> 
> DIY stuff, who knows. But those people are going to just ignore whatever rules exist anyway.
> 
> -Walt


Anyone that claims that a factory e-bike is going to cause a fire and they go into the woods with their cell phone or gps is nothing but a hypocrite. All modern devices run on lithium based batteries that are more than capable of causing a fire.

Those chances are minimal

I agree with you Walt anyone that has ghetto built their own pack via soldering is just asking for trouble. If you are going to build you own pack buy a battery spot welder, use pure nickle tabs, use a bms and shrink wrap the pack.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

More of a chance of fire from cig butts or roaches from those sloppy, uncaring e-bikers...


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

1niceride said:


> More of a chance of fire from cig butts or roaches from those sloppy, uncaring bikers...


I fixed that for you


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## SirDonald (Feb 4, 2008)

When climbing on my e bike or non e bike I well yield to the down hill traffic if I can


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## TruthSlayer (May 6, 2019)

It's bad for ebikers to blow past other riders uphill, but perfectly fine for enduro bros to blow past other riders downhill? I am all for ebike trails, but I would request that non ebike riders be prohibited from using these trails. Do you think the non ebike community would respect that? No chance.


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

TruthSlayer said:


> It's bad for ebikers to blow past other riders uphill, but perfectly fine for enduro bros to blow past other riders downhill? I am all for ebike trails, but I would request that non ebike riders be prohibited from using these trails. Do you think the non ebike community would respect that? No chance.


It is not fine for any type of trail user to "blow past" any trail user on multi-use trails. As has been stated above, don't be a dick, treat people as you want to be treated, it does not hurt to say "hello" to other trail users and it does not hurt to give up your right of way sometimes.

This is trail etiquette. Not EBike, equestrian, pogo stick, mountain bike or pedestrian trail etiquette.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

SirDonald said:


> When climbing on my e bike or non e bike I well yield to the down hill traffic if I can


If you do this, take a drink of water or act like you're winded and resting; lots of riders are too polite and get weirded out or embarrassed and all apologetic if they think that you got off the trail just for them.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yield to uphill traffic only.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

TruthSlayer said:


> It's bad for ebikers to blow past other riders uphill, but perfectly fine for enduro bros to blow past other riders downhill? I am all for ebike trails, but I would request that non ebike riders be prohibited from using these trails. Do you think the non ebike community would respect that? No chance.


*It is not okay for Enduro-Bros to blow past people on the downhill.* - This is coming from a person who has ridden eBikes before but does not own one or plan to buy one at this time.

If an eBike trail group was to form and convince a land management agency that they should be able to build and maintain an eBike only trail, I would be happy to let them have it. But is not the non-eBike community you need to worry about, it is the Land Managers you would need to convince...... That is an entirely different topic.



Bigwheel said:


> The old IMBA rule of yielding ROW to uphill traffic seems to have been overruled now so I try and be aware of that as I almost have gotten run off the trail by "gasp" mtb'rs on go pro flow a few times.


Do you have anything to back up that claim? As far as I am concerned and everyone I have ever spoken to on the subject the Downhill Ride should always yield to the Uphill rider when on a Multi-direction trail.

The gist of the answer to the OP's question is the eBike Etiquette is no different from regular trail etiquette for pedal bikes, runners, dog walkers, hikers and horseback riders. The only thing I would add for eBikes specifically is to not ride uphill in full turbo mode going as fast as possible and ride into the bushes to pass 2 guys who are climbing on pedal bikes at a slower pace. I only say that because it happened to me and my buddy. The jerk chose to run over plants and widen the trail instead of slowing down and calling out or ringing a bell to let us know he was there.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> *It is not okay for Enduro-Bros to blow past people on the downhill.* - This is coming from a person who has ridden eBikes before but does not own one or plan to buy one at this time.
> 
> If an eBike trail group was to form and convince a land management agency that they should be able to build and maintain an eBike only trail, I would be happy to let them have it. But is not the non-eBike community you need to worry about, it is the Land Managers you would need to convince...... That is an entirely different topic.
> 
> ...


I don't get why people don't have bells etc.. more. I have one and people from hikers, biker, dog walkers really appreciate it. But who knows I gave a bell to my brother-in-law and he refuses to use it and will just run people off the trail or ride up on them. Just can't fix rude I guess.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I don't get why people don't have bells etc.. more. I have one and people from hikers, biker, dog walkers really appreciate it. But who knows I gave a bell to my brother-in-law and he refuses to use it and will just run people off the trail or ride up on them. Just can't fix rude I guess.


IMO Bells are the best way to notify other trail users of ones presence. People ignore someone talking to them because they do not automatically know the person approaching IS talking to THEM directly, it could just sound like some other trail users conversation.

Loud Hubs also seem to get the point across, but those are obnoxious, that is the last thing I would want to be listening to when I was riding downhill...

When I got my Mac-Ride and started riding with my son last July/August I pulled the Bike Bell off my bike because my son never stops talking and laughing when on the bike with me. He talks to everyone we pass and I get nothing but smiles from them all when he is on board with me.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> IMO Bells are the best way to notify other trail users of ones presence. People ignore someone talking to them because they do not automatically know the person approaching IS talking to THEM directly, it could just sound like some other trail users conversation.
> 
> Loud Hubs also seem to get the point across, but those are obnoxious, that is the last thing I would want to be listening to when I was riding downhill...
> 
> When I got my Mac-Ride and started riding with my son last July/August I pulled the Bike Bell off my bike because my son never stops talking and laughing when on the bike with me. He talks to everyone we pass and I get nothing but smiles from them all when he is on board with me.


Yeah my brother-in-law tries to claim his hubs are loud enough, but I keep telling him past 10ft you can't hear them. He thinks that is enough warning for someone else on the trail.

LOL - that is cute that you son works better than the bell.

I have one of those cow bell types on my fatbike I sound like the ice cream man.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

craigsj said:


> I doubt your brother-in-law literally runs people off the trail


No he does and I keep telling him he has to stop doing that, but he just does not care since he still has a roadie attitude that he is out of a ride and they are in the way.

He will respond it was their fault since they did not hear his hubs, which are not that loud 10ft away.



> and riding up on someone is not inherently rude.


I guess I should've added he does not slow down until he is on top of them.



> It's important for everyone to keep their entitlements in check and share public spaces. I personally like the loud hub as it lets people know you're there without being confrontational. Nothing helps when someone is using headphones. Not paying attention is far more rude than refusing to use a bell.


Problem with that is as the rider you might think they are loud but like I mentioned 10 ft away someone might not hear them. Now the old Chris King hubs now those you could hear a ways off.

I use one of the mini-cow bells even people with headphones on seem to hear those. I want to keep my trails open and I see to many "serious" or uneducated riders not giving a crap since it is their ride and people need to get out of their way.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> LOL - that is cute that you son works better than the bell.


"Do a big Jump dad!" - Literally what he said as we approached and nothing but screams of joy as we did it.

















craigsj said:


> I consider calling out to a pedestrian to move as I approach to be rude. I consider a bell to be the same thing, only cuter. Not everyone sees issues the same way.


I guess agree to disagree.... Calling out is only rude if you call out in a rude way. What I mean by that is if you TELL the user to move for you, verses giving a friendly hello to let them know you are there.

Many years ago me and 2 friends were riding up a fire road and ahead there was a big family, 3 or 4 adults and a few children. I called out from about 100 yards "hello" in a friendly manner. One Adult woman in the group turned and made eye contact with me and then turned back around and pretended we were not there. I called out 2 more times and when we finally got close I was so mad I rode around them in the grass(yes I should not have done that, I was much younger then) and one of the men in the group had the gall to yell at me that Pedestrians have the right of way. I did the right thing and just continued on my way and let it lie instead of confronting them about what right of way had yielding means. It does not mean walking 5 abreast and totally blocking the road. Confrontation was a losing battle at that point.

Oddly enough that was the only time in 20 years of riding I have ever had such an experience when trying to pass pedestrians.

When I started using a Bell I found people(who don't have 2 ear buds in) always turn to look for the sound and always step aside to allow a safe pass. I have never once had a bad experience when the bell rings.

My most recent bell is just a Bear Bell that hangs from the handlebars, when I was using it I would use the silencer when on the trails that generally do not have pedestrians and then unlock it to ring constantly when in the more crowded areas.

IMO Bells are never rude unless you are using a air horn as your bell.

May I ask why you think a Bell is just a cute version of being rude?


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

craigsj said:


> Again, you want to lay blame on the behavior of specific cyclists. No doubt plenty of them are at fault, but so are many others. If everyone paid attention and shared the space there would be no problems. A trail is not the property of a cyclist but it's not the property of a pedestrian either and both need to accommodate the other. I'm not going to employ a bullhorn to ensure others know that I'm there.
> 
> Etiquette that requires only a few people to carry the burden of getting along is not etiquette.


But as bikers we are moving pretty quietly through the woods at over 10mph there is really nothing else in the woods doing that. I have scared up deer by being on top of them, talk about an animal that by its nature has its head on a swivel, not to mention it's ears.

There are more hikers than bikers and I have seen trails closed here by hikers complaining about the bikers. So it is on bikers to let people know they are there or to slow down to avoid trail conflicts.

For e-bikes the only difference I see is the uphill issue, which like the other things here boils down to "don't be a dick".

Why is this even an argument?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Who on earth thinks a bell is rude?!?

I've rung my bell when overtaking thousands of people doing all sorts of fun things on the trails. Not one has ever told me I was being rude. Many people (like, hundreds and hundreds) have thanked me over the years. 

I figure being extra polite is the price we mountain bikers pay for being the fastest and most dangerous things on the trail. That goes double for e-bikes. 

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I think if you try out the bell, you'll find people like it a lot.

-Walt


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## encouragable (Dec 24, 2011)

SirDonald said:


> When climbing on my e bike or non e bike I well yield to the down hill traffic if I can


This is what I do!! And when on an ebike, can yield a lot more. Since getting back up to speed is no issue at all.


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## encouragable (Dec 24, 2011)

craigsj said:


> I consider calling out to a pedestrian to move as I approach to be rude. I consider a bell to be the same thing, only cuter. Not everyone sees issues the same way.
> 
> I doubt your brother-in-law literally runs people off the trail and riding up on someone is not inherently rude.
> 
> It's important for everyone to keep their entitlements in check and share public spaces. I personally like the loud hub as it lets people know you're there without being confrontational. Nothing helps when someone is using headphones. Not paying attention is far more rude than refusing to use a bell.


I think you're in the wrong here. The bell is a tool to let other trail users know you are approaching. In many of our trail networks, it is required for for a reason.

I like to shift my gears or cough/clear my throat to let folks know I'm coming, if they're in my way. If that fails, I greet them enthusiastically. If not, i ding my bell. If not... escalate.

Bell is a tool and it's the easiest to understand. And it is required on many trails.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Encouragable said:


> This is what I do!! And when on an ebike, can yield a lot more. Since getting back up to speed is no issue at all.


Which runs counter to 40 + years of common sense mountain biking "rules".


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

"Do you have anything to back up that claim? As far as I am concerned and everyone I have ever spoken to on the subject the Downhill Ride should always yield to the Uphill rider when on a Multi-direction trail."

Seriously? Let's say I didn't make it up just to get you all righteous about something. Or you can assume as you have that I made it up to stir the pot, your choice! 

The forum went almost a week without back and forth bs that has nothing to do with ebikes specifically, must be a new record.


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## hopalong (Jul 28, 2007)




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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Why are we discussing this like a bunch of newbs? It’s human courtesy for Christ sake. If you don’t know how to act on a trail, stay the heck off, doesn’t matter what you ride. Now excuse me, I need to go kick my dog!


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## encouragable (Dec 24, 2011)

craigsj said:


> I'm "in the wrong" because I am concerned that others will view my bell usage as rude?
> 
> Bells are not required where I live; if they were I'd have one.
> 
> ...


I think you're in the wrong for arguing with everyone and anyone who words things a little different from you. And your bell notions are just strange.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

If you were taught not to talk to someone who hasn't acknowledged you, how on earth do you get someone's attention who isn't looking at you? You've said you don't like the bell because it's a proxy for talking to them, so obviously you can't talk to them. Making other sorts of noise would also constitute talking-by-proxy, right? Bright flashing lights? Telepathy?

Bells are a great, friendly way to get people to notice you. People (except you, I guess?) like it just fine. Most of them like it a lot. 

Hoota honkas are pretty fun too and nobody hates on those unless they're just pure evil.

-Walt


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Walt said:


> If you were taught not to talk to someone who hasn't acknowledged you, how on earth do you get someone's attention who isn't looking at you? You've said you don't like the bell because it's a proxy for talking to them, so obviously you can't talk to them. Making other sorts of noise would also constitute talking-by-proxy, right? Bright flashing lights? Telepathy?
> 
> Bells are a great, friendly way to get people to notice you. People (except you, I guess?) like it just fine. Most of them like it a lot.
> 
> ...


I know everyone I have meet LOVES the bell, they either laugh or say thanks. Especially after they hear the bell and look and I say "here comes the ice cream man".

The bell really seems to make dogs happier too since you don't startle them.

I use mine riding up hill at times to let those coming down I am coming up since I have almost been run over by those totally focused on the trip down not carrying about what is coming up.

I meet a few other that have a bell and it was nice to hear them coming and not get surprised.

Sounds like most of us agree that not startling people is a good thing no matter what type of bike is being used.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Sounds like most of us agree that not startling people is a good thing no matter what type of bike is being used.


Yep.

I cannot think of a better way to do this than my laughing son or a bell.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Don't be a dick, get out of other people's way whenever you need to. 

Timberbells rule. You'll come around a corner, and hikers will already be off the trail, then they'll thank you.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

Most in my experience like the bell. For the few who do not..so what. So they don't get it. One can't please everyone all the time. I have used a squeak toy also which might be too cute for some...who gives a rats ass...I would feel real bad if someone walked in front as I passed cuz they didn't know I was there.


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

If you roll up on someone and startle them then your action has produced a non-positive encounter. No one (ok, the majority of people) likes getting spooked or jumping off the side of a trail. 

The problem with calling out "on your left" is many people will turn towards the direction of the voice, it's human nature.

The bell is a great tool to let others know you are approaching. If you ring the bell when you are right up their ass then you are a ----head. You must alert equestrians as soon as possible in order to receive directions from the horseback rider. A simple exchange of pleasantries as you pass can have a far reaching positive effect. 

Ringing a bell as you approach a blind turn can reduce the chance of a collision.

For those in the "loud hub is all I need to make my presence known school", if you are riding a mountain bike only trail, I can support that reasoning. Many equestrians and hikers do not know what that sound is and please consider the fact that the sound emitting from your hubs can sound like your wheels are spinning 30-40mph. 

We spend about $5,000+/year on bells that we stock at numerous trailheads around SD County. Land Managers are waiting in line to get this bike bell program set up. We conduct equestrian/mountain biker "orientation" events a couple times a year, where we work with equestrians and help acclimate the riders and horses to mountain bikers. The bike bells have received 100% positive feedback from 100's of equestrians we have worked with.

The reason I mentioned earlier of the importance of exchanging pleasantries is that when asshat mountain bikers show a lack of respect to other trail users, it's good to have some good mojo spread around to help diffuse a situation, when others can share their positive encounters with mountain bikers then the negative situation becomes a "one-off" instead of a "normal" encounter.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

craigsj said:


> I'm "in the wrong" because I am concerned that others will view my bell usage as rude?
> 
> I was taught not to talk to someone who has not yet acknowledged me, and I consider a bell as nothing more than a proxy for doing just that.





craigsj said:


> If the bike makes noise on its own then it's not a proxy. Again, it's not that hard unless you're trying not to understand.


If people in your neck of the woods are more likely to find bells ruder than a hub, then by all means, keep using your hub. Your logic isn't hard to understand, I just think many doubt it plays out that way in the real world for the average hiker. A hub isn't a proxy and so is less rude than a bell for the average hiker -- that hardly seems plausible IMO, for hikers in the US. Do you mind disclosing where you ride?

Like most here, I've found a bell to be very effective and receives a *FAR* warmer reception than my voice or loud hubs. It even makes some hikers giddy and they go out of their way to flatter it ("I love your bell!"). Sometimes they tell me a horror story and ask why all bikers don't use a bell. I can't ever recall a hiker flattering my hub's sound.

A special thing about the bell: it's sole purpose is to communicate. People recognize that you made an extra effort, for them. That's a perfect example of being considerate.

Aside from avoiding collisions, my biggest goal is to NOT STARTLE a hiker. That first split second they hear you, whether bell or hub or other, is not a logical thought, but an emotional response based on previous experiences with that sound. In the US, the bell is often associated with ice cream, cookies finishing baking, bike rides on the boardwalk, or other joyous childhood memories. In contrast, I think a buzzing hub is far more likely to make a hiker emotionally contract while reliving that "close call" with a fast-charging cyclist.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

I think I see the problem here and it isn't a bell. Incredibell ftw!


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## b1rdie (Mar 11, 2011)

I use the good old technique of dragging the rear wheel, loudly, and look out of control whenever I need pedestrians to clear the trail, but that is only when I cannot simply stop and chat for a moment.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

I'm just going to start putting a playing card in my spokes :ihih:
That should get some attention! LOL


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

craigsj said:


> You get in front of them and make eye contact. It's not that hard, Walt.


Yeah, so you pass them and THEN warn them? Perfect!

Seriously, what on earth are you talking about? We are specifically discussing how to warn people that you're approaching who *are not facing you or looking at you*.

I mean, there is nothing wrong with just riding behind them at whatever speed they're hiking/riding and just waiting until they notice you. It can take a long, long time, though. Is that what you're advocating?

-Walt


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

Walt said:


> I think if you try out the bell, you'll find people like it a lot.
> 
> -Walt


Exactly. Since getting a timber bell I regularly get "thanks for using your bell" or "I love your bell comments" on a regular basis.

If only they had an e bike version....

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Wow! My ears are ringing with all this talk about bells! I believe we’ve run the course on bells, anymore post on bells will be deleted from here on out! 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

mtbbiker said:


> Wow! My ears are ringing with all this talk about bells! I believe we've run the course on bells, anymore post on bells will be deleted from here on out!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Crazy 'discussion', posturing.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

craigsj said:


> Horses are something I rarely encounter and when I do, they always have a cop on them.


Where are you from, and what trails do you ride that have horseback police on them?


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Turbospoke


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I yell “hiker” or “biker” then they know I’ve acknowledged them. I tell them solo, or how ever many more are with me. They always say thank you. I personally don’t like the noise of a b-ll! But whatever, bigger fish to fry- I reckon.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Gutch said:


> I yell "hiker" or "biker" then they know I've acknowledged them. I tell them solo, or how ever many more are with me. They always say thank you. I personally don't like the noise of a b-ll! But whatever, bigger fish to fry- I reckon.


I've taken to yelling out "biker" when I see someone headed towards me that is not paying attention. Especially after I got run off the trail


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I've taken to yelling out "biker" when I see someone headed towards me that is not paying attention. Especially after I got run off the trail


On occasion I have yelled at trail users who have 2 ear buds implanted.... I figure it is better to scare them via audio instead of trying to push by them on a tight trail.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

'On your left' has typically been sufficient in my experience so long as the approached has fair warning and enough time to adjust...


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Crankout said:


> 'On your left' has typically been sufficient in my experience so long as the approached has fair warning and enough time to adjust...


"On your left" seldom comes with fair warning; a really good pass is when the faster rider sits on your wheel, waits for you to give a quick subtle look, and then grabs the pass when you move over at a wider place in the trail. Anything else is dominance not cooperation.

I don't get passed much on my eBike and try not to pass; most mountain bikers going at my new uphill pace are likely to run out of breath and stop; if they don't they are usually very fit and backing off on the assist keeps me in line. If the rider ahead is on a hardtail; I'll usually wait a while before a downhill section so they don't ruin the flow.


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## sunderland56 (Aug 27, 2009)

hikerdave said:


> a really good pass is when the faster rider sits on your wheel, waits for you to give a quick subtle look, and then grabs the pass when you move over at a wider place in the trail.


On doubletrack and fire roads, sure. On singletrack - no. This is how singletrack gets braided and widened.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> I've taken to yelling out "biker" when I see someone headed towards me that is not paying attention. Especially after I got run off the trail


Why did you get run off the trail? Where you hauling ass uphill at some unnatural speed and they didn't expect you?


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## tony_mm (Dec 1, 2016)

tfinator said:


> Exactly. Since getting a timber bell I regularly get "thanks for using your bell" or "I love your bell comments" on a regular basis.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


My experience is however that 95% of the older people, say older than 65 y.o., don't hear it!! Grrrrrrrr......


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Why did you get run off the trail? Where you hauling ass uphill at some unnatural speed and they didn't expect you?


Why did I get run off the trail??? Because the guys headed towards me were hauling ass and not paying attention to anything but the trail in front of them. This was a flat section of single track also. Since you seem to be implying it was my fault, it wasn't since I saw them coming and finally yelled enough to get their attention but by then I was in the weeds. They apologized but I was still pissed that they did not pay attention.

Other times I have had a group of cross country types do the same thing while I was climbing up hill on a bi-directional single track and they were coming down. They did not care one bit for anyone coming up since they were all about their ride not about sharing the trails. That time got me to get the bell and use it going uphill as well as down.

I have seen a guy on a cycle cross bike run hikers off the trail also since he was on a "serious" ride, this is after I stopped to let them by and had a nice chat with them. To only have that guy ruin and good will I had created.

The only trail etiquette things that could be e-bike specific is passing up hill and not riding uphill on trails that are generally down only. But on the down only I have seen strong cross country types ride up and create a danger for those coming down and not expecting someone coming up.

See trail etiquette is not a e-bike thing but is a mountain biker thing and many a mountain biker could care less about anyone on the trail but themselves.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

hikerdave said:


> "On your left" seldom comes with fair warning; a really good pass is when the faster rider sits on your wheel, waits for you to give a quick subtle look, and then grabs the pass when you move over at a wider place in the trail. Anything else is dominance not cooperation.
> 
> I don't get passed much on my eBike and try not to pass; most mountain bikers going at my new uphill pace are likely to run out of breath and stop; if they don't they are usually very fit and backing off on the assist keeps me in line. If the rider ahead is on a hardtail; I'll usually wait a while before a downhill section so they don't ruin the flow.


I won't aggressively pass someone unless it's a race. I'm not out to ruin someone's day!


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## sjfixed (May 24, 2010)

That video applies to all riders, why should it be for just eMTB'ers? Lame.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> IMO Bells are the best way to notify other trail users of ones presence. People ignore someone talking to them because they do not automatically know the person approaching IS talking to THEM directly, it could just sound like some other trail users conversation.
> 
> Loud Hubs also seem to get the point across, but those are obnoxious, that is the last thing I would want to be listening to when I was riding downhill...
> 
> When I got my Mac-Ride and started riding with my son last July/August I pulled the Bike Bell off my bike because my son never stops talking and laughing when on the bike with me. He talks to everyone we pass and I get nothing but smiles from them all when he is on board with me.


Not a sweeter sound than that of my killer Bees Chris King Hubs singing on a descent. Absolutely nothing obnoxious about it.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ALimon said:


> Not a sweeter sound than that of my killer Bees Chris King Hubs singing on a descent. Absolutely nothing obnoxious about it.


Agree to disagree. ;-)


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## scottie mac (Nov 3, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Trolling down the river... Back to the OP, common sense. 1) Ride Legal. 2) Yield to hikers and uphill bikers. Anything else is up to you, if they don't like your ebike or whatever, f-them. Most mtbrs are very cool. Most hikers are very cool. Most posters are not!


Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## rancher52 (Aug 16, 2019)

tony_mm said:


> My experience is however that 95% of the older people, say older than 65 y.o., don't hear it!! Grrrrrrrr......


What Your right ,I'm 62, with an diseased ear. but can hear a loud bike bell well On the Left if someone is a little louder all is well, I usually pull over if somebody comes on my tail.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## tony_mm (Dec 1, 2016)

rancher52 said:


> What Your right ,I'm 62, with an diseased ear. but can hear a loud bike bell well On the Left if someone is a little louder all is well, I usually pull over if somebody comes on my tail.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Good for you!  I supposed you belong to the 5% then...LOL.

You may as a biker also be more aware and more respectful of other bikers riding.

Yesterday again I used my bell (Knog oi) so many times but older people could not hear it until I was just behind them....and they clearly were frustrated that I came and that they had to let me through.

But nobody should take it personally.....We all get older! .....

It is just good to know what will happen.


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## rancher52 (Aug 16, 2019)

*Keep in mind, everyone gets old.*



tony_mm said:


> Good for you!  I supposed you belong to the 5% then...LOL.
> 
> You may as a biker also be more aware and more respectful of other bikers riding.
> 
> ...


Thanks , its great being young and strong full of lots of energy but the day will come you'll have a life event or just get old and No Longer enjoy your endorphin run, that being said E-Bikes have transformed getting old into an active lifestyle again contrary to what some of you think old people don't want to ruin your day or get in your way, They're just trying to get exercise and out , having fun before the final days.
seriously getting old sucks big time for 50% of us and most our doing the best they can, Happy Peddling, be nice to the Old Folks you get there one day. Lol


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## tony_mm (Dec 1, 2016)

rancher52 said:


> Thanks , its great being young and strong full of lots of energy but the day will come you'll have a life event or just get old and No Longer enjoy your endorphin run, that being said E-Bikes have transformed getting old into an active lifestyle again contrary to what some of you think old people don't want to ruin your day or get in your way, They're just trying to get exercise and out , having fun before the final days.
> seriously getting old sucks big time for 50% of us and most our doing the best they can, Happy Peddling, be nice to the Old Folks you get there one day. Lol


Yes totally agree!
I am mid 50 and still ride more than 12k km per year but I do miss the time I was younger!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

When coming up on hikers I always yell out hello! as I pass I try n say hi or nice day or a simple how you doing if I catch slower riders , I just fellow behind staying 10ft back in till they pull to the side . I will pretty much give way to any rider and pull to the side even if I am coming up hill and they are coming down , I will ask how many? I always ride looking down the trail as far as I can see and not starring at my front wheel .


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## 36Miles (Nov 6, 2016)

Bottom line. Other than always being annoyed that some guy who hasn't put in the miles to be passing me on a hill is doing it thanks to an e-Bike, it seems like every time I see someone riding at excessive speed on the bike path or trail it's someone on an e-Bike. 

They are fast, even compared to road bikers, and I am riding a 29er with 2.3s on both ends, so I get passed by road bikers often enough. The only people who ever pass me going "scary fast" are e-Bikers. I don't run into many e-Bikes, so when I do I tend to notice. It's a pretty high percentage that ride at what I'd consider excessive speed.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

I have to wonder at all of these super speed claims since I am seeing more and more e-bikes on the local trails and they are not going any faster than anyone else. Matter of fact no one notices them since they don't look all that different. I know what I am looking for so notice and talk to the riders seeing how they like them but the folks I ride with noticed nothing.

So where are all these people that are supposed to be using these bikes like motorcycles and tearing up that trails? I mean that seems to be the claim as to what we should be seeing right?


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I have to wonder at all of these super speed claims since I am seeing more and more e-bikes on the local trails and they are not going any faster than anyone else. Matter of fact no one notices them since they don't look all that different. I know what I am looking for so notice and talk to the riders seeing how they like them but the folks I ride with noticed nothing.
> 
> So where are all these people that are supposed to be using these bikes like motorcycles and tearing up that trails? I mean that seems to be the claim as to what we should be seeing right?


I think that 36 miles is conflating what he sees on the road with what's happening on the trails. I've seen one eBiker going all out on my local trail and one guy sprinting ahead of his friends on traditional mountain bikes and then waiting for him to catch up. Everyone else that I've seen is older like me and not usually going all out. On safe trails I'll play at the limits of cornering traction just as I did on my human-powered bike but I NEVER carry speed approaching anyone on the trail be they biker, hiker, dog, coyote, roadrunner or child.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

hikerdave said:


> I think that 36 miles is conflating what he sees on the road with what's happening on the trails. I've seen one eBiker going all out on my local trail and one guy sprinting ahead of his friends on traditional mountain bikes and then waiting for him to catch up. Everyone else that I've seen is older like me and not usually going all out. On safe trails I'll play at the limits of cornering traction just as I did on my human-powered bike but I NEVER carry speed approaching anyone on the trail be they biker, hiker, dog, coyote, roadrunner or child.


So you ride like everyone else on the trail or at least how they should be riding.

OK I get the road thing since and I would be one of those he dislikes on the road. I commute on my DIY e-bike and I have passed people on $5000 or more road bikes boy do they get upset. I do find the petty jealous of "they have not earned hills and or miles" to be silly though.

You do you and they do them your not racing to who cares.


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## 36Miles (Nov 6, 2016)

It's definitely silly, @KenPsz. That doesn't mean I won't have that feeling. ;-)

eBikes definitely look like and feel like cheating to me. Maybe when I'm 70 and still trying to make my 36 mile commute into work, I will need the assist. That's still a few years off, though, and it's not the older people on eBikes that tend to bother me. It's the young ones.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

36Miles said:


> It's definitely silly, @KenPsz. That doesn't mean I won't have that feeling. ;-)
> 
> eBikes definitely look like and feel like cheating to me. Maybe when I'm 70 and still trying to make my 36 mile commute into work, I will need the assist. That's still a few years off, though, and it's not the older people on eBikes that tend to bother me. It's the young ones.


We are not racing so why do you care? Don't buy one
Why do those people bother you? You're not racing, they are not harming you so what is your issue with them?

I do 27 round trip and the motor makes the ride much more pleasant and quicker (cut 20 min both ways). Yet I still get a ride in and my car stays in the garage which for me is a win/win.

So like I said you do you and other people will do them.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

36Miles said:


> Maybe when I'm 70 and still trying to make my 36 mile commute into work, I will need the assist.


Where do you live that you do a 36 mile commute on a bicycle? How long does it take you each way? I am assuming that is 36 miles one way?


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## 36Miles (Nov 6, 2016)

It's 18 each way. I live in Colorado. It is, thankfully, almost entirely on bike paths and trails, with traffic only at the beginning and the end. There is uphill, so 1.5 hours. Home is downhill, so 1.2 hours. Thank goodness the more downhill ride is home. I don't know if I'd do it the other way.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

36Miles said:


> It's 18 each way. I live in Colorado. It is, thankfully, almost entirely on bike paths and trails, with traffic only at the beginning and the end. There is uphill, so 1.5 hours. Home is downhill, so 1.2 hours. Thank goodness the more downhill ride is home. I don't know if I'd do it the other way.


If you were electrified you could do it the other way.


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## 36Miles (Nov 6, 2016)

LOL, you've got me there.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

36Miles said:


> It's 18 each way. I live in Colorado. It is, thankfully, almost entirely on bike paths and trails, with traffic only at the beginning and the end. There is uphill, so 1.5 hours. Home is downhill, so 1.2 hours. Thank goodness the more downhill ride is home. I don't know if I'd do it the other way.


I am curious, if you were on a Class 3 eBike, so 28mph max motor speed, could you make that commute faster considering it is on bike paths and not on surface streets? I mean if the bike path has very light traffic and you would not be causing etiquette issues by traveling that fast?

I am currently looking at a new job that would be closer to home and bike commuting is a real possibility for me if that happens, so I would be looking at both road bikes and possibly an eBike commuter bike.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> I am curious, if you were on a Class 3 eBike, so 28mph max motor speed, could you make that commute faster considering it is on bike paths and not on surface streets? I mean if the bike path has very light traffic and you would not be causing etiquette issues by traveling that fast?


My commute is a mix of surface streets and bike/multi-use paths. The MUPs are lightly used, but the problem is the hazards are so random. Kids, dog walkers other riders do some truly bizarre ****. Access to the MUP is at many uncontrolled points so I can go from a clear path to an obstacle I need to avoid very quickly in a moment. I can't imagine how I could ride safely at anything approaching 28mph.

My average speed for my commute is ~16mph [no motors] and that seems like the top end of what speed I can ride there safely. If I wanted to do 28mph or anything like that I'd have to skip the paths and ride on some of the bigger roads in the area where vehicles are moving more my speed and these random actors [kids, dogs, joggers, etc...] don't exist.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> I am curious, if you were on a Class 3 eBike, so 28mph max motor speed, could you make that commute faster considering it is on bike paths and not on surface streets? I mean if the bike path has very light traffic and you would not be causing etiquette issues by traveling that fast?
> 
> I am currently looking at a new job that would be closer to home and bike commuting is a real possibility for me if that happens, so I would be looking at both road bikes and possibly an eBike commuter bike.


while riding home last night I rode next to another bike commuter on a analog-bike. We chatted for a few miles and he was doing a good pace (I slowed down to his pace to talk). At one point he said he was just going to grab on to my bike for a break.

He does 19 miles each way and was moving fast but I seemed to be enjoying the ride more. So if you can I and the miles justify electric is the way to go. Less sweat, less tired and work and less time, plus you leave the car at home.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> I am curious, if you were on a Class 3 eBike, so 28mph max motor speed, could you make that commute faster considering it is on bike paths and not on surface streets? I mean if the bike path has very light traffic and you would not be causing etiquette issues by traveling that fast?


Seems like 36miles could do it faster on a class 2 since he (or she) is averaging 15mph now on the downhill run. IME 20mph average is doable on lots of bike paths during most times, even faster if it were an option (class 3)

Another reason I'm opposed to them being classified as a bicycle, as it is only 1 or 2% (est) of riders are capable of averaging 20mph whereas most of the people I've seen on e-bikes are doing close to that. Not so many e-bikes now, but soon?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> He does 19 miles each way and was moving fast but I seemed to be enjoying the ride more. So if you can I and the miles justify electric is the way to go. Less sweat, less tired and work and less time, plus you leave the car at home.


That's a little presumptuous, different people have different versions of enjoyment. I love crushing a hard ride though it might not look like I'm having fun to an outsider during the moment. For me and many other endorphin junkies there's nothing like it and the feeling could not be duplicated with electric assist. The satisfying afterglow is the best.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's a little presumptuous, different people have different versions of enjoyment. I love crushing a hard ride though it might not look like I'm having fun to an outsider during the moment. For me and many other endorphin junkies there's nothing like it and the feeling could not be duplicated with electric assist. The satisfying afterglow is the best.


You seem to just be looking for an argument that is not there to be had.

I know the conversation I had with him, you don't.

This was not a ride for enjoyment is was a commute, to me an others (including the guy I was riding next to) it is more about getting from point A to B than a ride for enjoyment. But any day riding to work is better than sitting in a car.

Yes I know from previous discussions with you, you like suffering and take pride in how much you can do. Good for you I and others ride for enjoyment not the pride in suffering. So like I told someone earlier "you do you, let others do them".


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Seems like 36miles could do it faster on a class 2 since he (or she) is averaging 15mph now on the downhill run. IME 20mph average is doable on lots of bike paths during most times, even faster if it were an option (class 3)
> 
> Another reason I'm opposed to them being classified as a bicycle, as it is only 1 or 2% (est) of riders are capable of averaging 20mph whereas most of the people I've seen on e-bikes are doing close to that. Not so many e-bikes now, but soon?


So can we just ban anyone riding over 20mph then since speed is speed.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> You seem to just be looking for an argument that is not there to be had.
> 
> I know the conversation I had with him, you don't.
> 
> This was not a ride for enjoyment is was a commute, to me an others (including the guy I was riding next to) it is more about getting from point A to B than a ride for enjoyment. But any day riding to work is better than sitting in a car.


Fair enough, didn't really mean to argue. A simple misunderstanding. I will say though (not arguing! ) that lots of people do commute for enjoyment.



KenPsz said:


> So can we just ban anyone riding over 20mph then since speed is speed.


I suppose but that would require cops, enforcement, money, bureaucracy, etc.

Seems complicated.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> So can we just ban anyone riding over 20mph then since speed is speed.


Yup. All paved/bikepaths/MUTs have speed limits, most aren't posted though since it's generally not an issue, it's often 15mph.

I ride bike paths a lot when I'm alone, and it's at a faster cruising pace if I can manage it and the path is basically empty. Which most are around me.

I used to be part of a weekly early morning road ride, and there's no way we'd ride on bike paths, our average speed was too great. Having to slow down for random dog walkers, packs of talking women, headphone wearers, drunken hobums and the like just doesn't work as speeds increase, it's frustrating for the rider and dangerous for everyone involved.

I'm fully supportive of ebikes and bikes on bike paths, but going too fast for the conditions is going too fast for the conditions.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Harryman said:


> Yup. All paved/bikepaths/MUTs have speed limits, most aren't posted though since it's generally not an issue, it's often 15mph.
> 
> I ride bike paths a lot when I'm alone, and it's at a faster cruising pace if I can manage it and the path is basically empty. Which most are around me.
> 
> ...


Now you do hit on a point that is interesting.

Bike paths when you are capable of more speed are not where you are supposed to ride.
But riding in the street can get you killed, so what do you do?

Slowing down is the correct idea but I have seen many a analog-bike rider and roller rollerblader not slowing down. So this speed issue is not restricted to e-bikes.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Fair enough, didn't really mean to argue. A simple misunderstanding. I will say though (not arguing! ) that lots of people do commute for enjoyment.
> 
> I suppose but that would require cops, enforcement, money, bureaucracy, etc.
> 
> Seems complicated.


Fair enough

Don't get me wrong I commute for enjoyment since I rather ride than drive, but the enjoyment is not the focus. I also know my limitations when commuting. The e-bike makes the commute more enjoyable, quicker etc.. for me which is a win/win in my book.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Now you do hit on a point that is interesting.
> 
> Bike paths when you are capable of more speed are not where you are supposed to ride.
> But riding in the street can get you killed, so what do you do?
> ...


Nope, speed is speed. I have worked closely with my local parks dept for over a decade, and the reality is that they all know that people go too fast on bike paths, ride motorcycles on bike paths, gas scooters, chinese knockoff whizzers etc, but resources are slim and until they are forced to, they will ignore it. The speed limits are there and other restrictions like no motor vehicles etc to cover their butts when someone gets injured or killed. "Hey, we have a speed limit posted (somewhere), sooo...."

Anyway, the only impact I can see moving forward is that since ebikes make it easier to go fast, a certain % of ebike riders will. If the total number of faster users hits the tipping point, then the crackdown happens on all of them.

https://www.thecentersquare.com/col...cle_2d6dd766-9209-11e9-8a3f-1714ad7eb3a0.html

I'll take the trade off of riding slower on a bike path over faster on a road since I don't want to die. I'm not happy that's the state of things, but me getting squashed by a texting driver isn't a reasonable protest against the state of affairs. I've mostly given up riding on the road except when I have to.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Fair enough
> 
> Don't get me wrong I commute for enjoyment since I rather ride than drive, but the enjoyment is not the focus. I also know my limitations when commuting. The e-bike makes the commute more enjoyable, quicker etc.. for me which is a win/win in my book.


For me I'd have to say enjoyment is the focus since it's so much easier and quicker to drive. If the e-bike makes commuting more fun for you then that's awesome.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> So this speed issue is not restricted to e-bikes.


That is correct, speed can be an issue with Pedal Bikes too, riding too fast for conditions or skills is the primary reason for accidents and crashes. That is true with or without a motor.

The difference that most people do key in on is having a motor allows for someone who may not have put in the time to gain the skills to travel at speeds that require skills, whether on dirt or pavement.

The same holds true for Motorcycles and Cars, That is why drivers must get a learners permit first and be supervised while they learn to handle a vehicle at speed before they are allowed to get a license and do it on their own.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> The same holds true for Motorcycles and Cars, That is why drivers must get a learners permit first and be supervised while they learn to handle a vehicle at speed before they are allowed to get a license and do it on their own.


In some jurisdictions there are displacement/horsepower limitations and a graduated licensing system to force people to on less dangerous motorised vehicles before they are able to drive something more powerful. I don't think that's a bad idea.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> Now you do hit on a point that is interesting.
> 
> Bike paths when you are capable of more speed are not where you are supposed to ride.
> But riding in the street can get you killed, so what do you do?
> ...


At commute time the Boise River greenbelt I once regularly used for a large part of my 20 mile daily commute was almost always empty; no need to slow down. Different story on a weekend ride when everyone and their dog was out. I can't imagine this being much different today. Don't get me started on rollerbladers though.


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## 36Miles (Nov 6, 2016)

My morning commute is empty, but it is uphill and I can't seem to go faster than averaging 12 mph - that does include a few stop signs and red lights, which I always stop for.

The afternoon commute tends to slow down, even at an average speed of 15 mph, because even though it is more downhill, there tend to be more people on the path, which means more slowing down. I try to minimize my stupid speed decisions, but I know I occasionally make bad decisions. At least I am aware of it and consciously trying to use my brain when riding. ;-)

I don't know if it'd be easier or harder with an e-Bike. Maybe easier, as most of my stupid decisions have to do with maintaining speed coming into a climb. I bet I'd be more relaxed about that with some assist.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

vikb said:


> In some jurisdictions there are displacement/horsepower limitations and a graduated licensing system to force people to on less dangerous motorised vehicles before they are able to drive something more powerful. I don't think that's a bad idea.


Yes, in Australia that is the case and i am pretty sure in some other countries. I think it is a great idea. That said Australia also penalizes you with higher insurance for higher displacement bikes..... Which is lame because a 600cc Modern Bike is much faster than an old 1300 v-twin..... But at the very least not allowing a license for a Super Bike right out of the gate is a good thing. I live near Camp Pendelton in Oceanside. There are a number of Big Motorcycle shops in the area who cater to Marines who have free housing and a paycheck burning a hole in their pocket, and a 19 year old Kid can walk into any of those stores and ride home on a 200+ horsepower superbike, that is just insane.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

36Miles said:


> My morning commute is empty, but it is uphill and I can't seem to go faster than averaging 12 mph - that does include a few stop signs and red lights, which I always stop for.
> 
> The afternoon commute tends to slow down, even at an average speed of 15 mph, because even though it is more downhill, there tend to be more people on the path, which means more slowing down. I try to minimize my stupid speed decisions, but I know I occasionally make bad decisions. At least I am aware of it and consciously trying to use my brain when riding. ;-)
> 
> I don't know if it'd be easier or harder with an e-Bike. Maybe easier, as most of my stupid decisions have to do with maintaining speed coming into a climb. I bet I'd be more relaxed about that with some assist.


Roger, thanks for the info!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> Yes, in Australia that is the case and i am pretty sure in some other countries. I think it is a great idea. That said Australia also penalizes you with higher insurance for higher displacement bikes..... Which is lame because a 600cc Modern Bike is much faster than an old 1300 v-twin..... But at the very least not allowing a license for a Super Bike right out of the gate is a good thing. I live near Camp Pendelton in Oceanside. There are a number of Big Motorcycle shops in the area who cater to Marines who have free housing and a paycheck burning a hole in their pocket, and a 19 year old Kid can walk into any of those stores and ride home on a 200+ horsepower superbike, that is just insane.


Not any more insane than giving that same 19 yo a gun. At least he will probably only kill or maime himself when he crashes the crotch rocket.

Does anyone else she how off it is that we limit engine size on trails but not on the roads?

My thinking on managging ebikes on trails is using trail design to weed out users, so double track is clearly going to be easier and more accessible to ebikers, whereas technical single track and steep downhills will be less accessible to ebikers.

I built a bunch of trail where I live and I made it moto unfriendlly as a way to limit moto use. Works so far


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Nurse Ben said:


> Not any more insane than giving that same 19 yo a gun. At least he will probably only kill or maime himself when he crashes the crotch rocket.
> 
> Does anyone else she how off it is that we limit engine size on trails but not on the roads?
> 
> ...


I get the usage of trail design to limit speed but how do you think that is going to limit ebikers?

That only works if you believe (I mean really believe) that ebikers are looking to ride e-motorcycles.

I watch ebikes ride twisty single track every weekend, at the same speeds as other bikers.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> That said Australia also penalizes you with higher insurance for higher displacement bikes..... Which is lame because a 600cc Modern Bike is much faster than an old 1300 v-twin.....


Where I live penalizes you on insurance by displacement. I sold my last moto because I was ultimately not willing to pay the high insurance costs and because I realized my health would benefit if I pedaled my bicycle more and used a motor less. I never drive my truck for fun or for a mission that's easily bicycled so it doesn't compete for free time with my bicycles.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> I built a bunch of trail where I live and I made it moto unfriendlly as a way to limit moto use. Works so far


If you built mandatory difficult hike-a-bike sections where you have to carry your bike and built steep tech climbs that relied on finesse and technique vs. horsepower you'd limit access to motors of any kind.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

vikb said:


> If you built mandatory difficult hike-a-bike sections where you have to carry your bike and built steep tech climbs that relied on finesse and technique vs. horsepower you'd limit access to motors of any kind.


hike a bike will definitely stop someone from riding a 50ish lb bike on that trail.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

vikb said:


> If you built mandatory difficult hike-a-bike sections where you have to carry your bike and built steep tech climbs that relied on finesse and technique vs. horsepower you'd limit access to motors of any kind.


Yup, but then no one wants to ride with me 

Seriously, it's hard enough to find people who want to climb tech, but when my rides include hike a bike, the crickets get loud!


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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

vikb said:


> If you built mandatory difficult hike-a-bike sections where you have to carry your bike and built steep tech climbs that relied on finesse and technique vs. horsepower you'd limit access to motors of any kind.


I'd argue that even a trail with a trialsy type of ascent would weed on the majority of ebike riders and probably a lot of regular riders too. I think a lot of folks have lost the knack for the technical ascent, especially if it involves any ratcheting or trailsy moves. This is probably one of my favorite types of climbs frankly. If I need to ratchet, nose wheelie, or hop it means that a large percentage of time I am not going to make it and that keeps me coming back, but I am more of an anachronism than most riders so...


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Walk assist and throttle allow me take my eBike on every route except for places where I need to rope in.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yup, but then no one wants to ride with me
> 
> Seriously, it's hard enough to find people who want to climb tech, but when my rides include hike a bike, the crickets get loud!


Then you need new friends. I punish my friends with tech, HAB and then more tech. The weak give in the strong look down from the peak of the mountain happy they put in the effort.

To boot I'll start rides at 6am as well. I can be cruel.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

richardjohnson said:


> I'd argue that even a trail with a trialsy type of ascent would weed on the majority of ebike riders and probably a lot of regular riders too.


Agreed. Most of my favourite trails are the ones other people do some grumbling about when you suggest them. I'm bored and falling asleep on flow trails. The techier the better. I'm happy to spend time sessioning and dialing in moves going back all year until I clean a trail in one go. That's supremely satisfying.


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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

vikb said:


> Agreed. Most of my favourite trails are the ones other people do some grumbling about when you suggest them. I'm bored and falling asleep on flow trails. The techier the better. I'm happy to spend time sessioning and dialing in moves going back all year until I clean a trail in one go. That's supremely satisfying.


This was AZ trails for me, big moves, trials stuff, and many, many attempts at clearning them and then starting over the next year after the winter rains changed the lines completely. WA is different, more flow trails, though I like the skinnies and learning to jump gaps and such. Still miss the tech stuff, that isn't just wet roots. Lots of epics out here though but very dissimilar to Arizona.

I used to ride with a guy that was like you. We called him Lying Brian because he always said the trails were easy, the ride was short, and there wouldn't be any HABs and then 50 miles later, 3000ft of HABs we be drained, damaged, and exhausted and staring down a 10 mile descent of epic proportions. They were epics and death march rides but always worth the destination and the cold one at the end.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Where I have been forced to give up, is when lifting my nearly 70 pound (fatbike, Rohloff hub, 17 AH battery, BBSHD,) over a fence. Any other terrain, if it can be walked, not matter how steep, I can get the bike up, though I may not be in the saddle. I ride one trail, right behind my house, that runs around a mountain range, with lots of baby head size rocks, and a few times a year I see a dirt biker, never any cyclists of any kind. The trail is brutal and sickly satisfying. The fence issue only has come up when I get lost, and no, my battery is not removable.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

richardjohnson said:


> I used to ride with a guy that was like you. We called him Lying Brian because he always said the trails were easy, the ride was short, and there wouldn't be any HABs and then 50 miles later, 3000ft of HABs we be drained, damaged, and exhausted and staring down a 10 mile descent of epic proportions. They were epics and death march rides but always worth the destination and the cold one at the end.


I would not lie to people about how hard trails are. I have had two friends who had a life altering injuries on rides I was on. I would not want to be responsible for sandbagging someone and getting them hurt and ending their riding careers. I also wouldn't appreciate that being done to me.

I totally pump up the stoke for a tough ride to get folks excited, but I don't pretend it's going to be easy when I know it's a deadly ride.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

I have not noticed any hatred or disdain towards ebikers. Then again I dont pay attention nor care about anything people are doing, as by the moment I look their way, I am long gone!

It is not my problem, it is theirs!

Aside from that, whenever I stop and take a rest, then its always the usual questions....
How far can you go?
How much does that cost?
How long to charge?
Cool man, can I take it for a spin? then I say to that line of question, No now f-off I am trying to relax here people. It can get quite annoying sometimes as person after person asks the same questions over and over again, time and time again.

As for your question below, just ignore them! Us ebikers are in a zen moment as we ride ebikes and we cant get rid of that grin that is on our faces as its pure bliss!


> Can those who ride on trails with non-motorized riders, equestrians, hikers, etc give some tips and etiquette advice on how to keep harmony on the trails?


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