# Titanium Vs. Carbon Rigid Fork on a ti hardtail



## wykes (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm excited to say my new project is a titanium Kona Hei Hei, from about 2000 i think.
I want to build it up fully rigid, should be light.

I'm thinking of either the Black Sheep unicrown (LOVE the simple clean look and it'd match the frame nicely), or the WCS Ritchey Carbon (presumably the lightest mountain bike fork on the market?). I'm using rim breaks, if that makes any difference to opinions on flex under breaking etc.

Opinions seem varied on the suitability of ti for a fork, but I can't find anything but love for the BS products.

pros and cons of each? any thoughts greatly appreciated.

also, anyone know of a place i can have the frame bead blasted in the bay area?


----------



## Hardtailforever (Feb 11, 2004)

Ritchey fork is super light, somewhat unforgiving, a little fragile and super short axle-to-crown. Black sheep can be made as forgiving as you want, as tall or as short as you want, is as durable as you can get and is still pretty light. For my money, unless the frame was custom designed specifically for a 63mm suspension fork and you don't care about comfort, I would go with the Black Sheep fork.


----------



## wykes (Jan 15, 2007)

interesting, i hadn't thought of the carbon fork being so short, good point

i have to say i''m leaning toward the black sheep, it'll last forever, unless of course the phantom titanium fork failure strikes

thanks for the input


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*carbon!!*

I'd definitely go for the carbon. You can get the "Ritchey" cheaper from Token or Trigon which offer the exact same fork for less money.

Forget about the short lenght! I also tried a different fork with ssupension corrected lenght but the ride was slow and the fork way too flexy (it was also a carbon Pace-a-like). That Token fork rocks. It transforms your bike into a rocketship. The damping is just awesome. I did all trails i usually do also with my other bike with suspension fork and the "damping* is just great. It isn't near as unforgiving as i thought. I once also had a rigid aluminium fork...that thing was really rigid. The carbon seems to dampen things quite a bit. My speeds were really just a tad slower than with supension. it is on the brakes that you need to loosen up but in most other situations the ultralight and precise front lets you flick your bike over or around obstacles with ease.

weight is unmatched too: my Token was about 450g cut to lenght!

BUT most important: you want to runs slightly fatter tires at low pressure anyway if you want a full rigid ride.I can really suggest the Conti Race King 2.2" which not only rolls superfast and offers awesome grip but it has just the comfort you need to enjoy a full rigid ride. Those tires offer real suspension while beeing fast.

By the way - i rode also a Morati Ti fork but the wobbly flex would annoy me and the longer forks also seem to slow things down quite a bit.


----------



## djork (Nov 8, 2004)

*Pace RC 31*

You can browse Ebay for used ones since this fork is no longer in production. One of the best carbon rigid forks ever made. I got a used one on Ebay and I must say it's a nice fork. I'm really surprised that it's not as bumpy as I thought riding on a rigid would be. It also adds bling to your bike, if that's a deciding factor.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

djork said:


> You can browse Ebay for used ones since this fork is no longer in production. One of the best carbon rigid forks ever made. I got a used one on Ebay and I must say it's a nice fork. I'm really surprised that it's not as bumpy as I thought riding on a rigid would be. It also adds bling to your bike, if that's a deciding factor.


No wonder you see them on Ebay!
The Pace is a wet noodle and much heavier compared to the Ritchey/Token etc..

i rode a Pace and didn't like it at all, i also had a "Pace-a-like" and found it nowhere near as spicy as the Token. And besides that they look completely dated. The ride of the Token is woooorlds better thanthe other forks i have tried.

Shown below my bike with that "Pace-a-like" fork. It had suspension corrected lenght but rode bad. no comparison to the Token i installed just 3 rides later.


----------



## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

nino said:


> i rode a Pace and didn't like it at all, i also had a "Pace-a-like" and found it nowhere near as spicy as the Token. And besides that they look completely dated. The ride of the Token is woooorlds better thanthe other forks i have tried.


I do not think you can meaninfully compare forks with such a drastic difference in axle to crown distance.

I doubt I can tolerate a couple degrees steeper angle on my hardtail, no matter how good or light a short fork would be.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*lenght...*



Curmy said:


> I do not think you can meaninfully compare forks with such a drastic difference in axle to crown distance.
> 
> I doubt I can tolerate a couple degrees steeper angle on my hardtail, no matter how good or light a short fork would be.


just believe me and others that use the short Token as well: the ride is just awesome!

As mentioned i also looked for a longer fork initially but had to sell that fork after just 3 rides!

Don't forget the sag you have on all suspension forks and also while cornering ANY suspension bike will sink into its travel even more because it gets compressed. That makes for a steerer headangle---->That's what makes your bike steer quicker. The lenght of a suspension fork is at least 20-30mm less compared to it's uncompressed lenght when cornering---> If you install a rigid fork with the same lenght of a uncompressed suspension one you get rewarded with SLOWER steering !!

Again - i have tried many different forks but none comes close!

here's some other bikes that also get ridden with the Token/Ritchey...


----------



## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

nino said:


> just believe me and others that use the short Token as well: the ride is just awesome!


No, I so not see any reason to believe you as I do know for a fact that such a fork handles very differently and absolutely not for my liking. Yes, I have tried. There is no magic, it is jsut a rigid carbon fork.

If you happened to like steep steering angle, it does not mean others will.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*steering angle...*



Curmy said:


> No, I so not see any reason to believe you as I do know for a fact that such a fork handles very differently and absolutely not for my liking. Yes, I have tried. There is no magic, it is jsut a rigid carbon fork.
> 
> If you happened to like steep steering angle, it does not mean others will.


I am talking about XC-hardtails which usually come with 80mm suspension forks. You are right though if you have a bike with a 100mm fork. There the Token might really be too short.

Those installing a rigid fork aren't the grandpas anyway - you need a very active riding technique to ride a full rigid offroads. The main advantage a rigid fork offers is its light weight and direct steering. It should be light and flickable to be able to ride over/around bigger obstacles on the trails. If you are looking for a bike that goes straight with ease rather get yourself a long-travel Enduro. Full-rigids need to be ridden more agressively.

A suspension corrected fork will actually ride SLOWER than the supension fork it replaces just as i explained above. I had one and had to get rid of as it would turn my bike into a sleeper. Worst of all the high position in corners actually makes you loose traction. The weight distribution is different.In corners you have less weight on the front--->less grip...all along with slower steering.


----------



## dinoadventures (May 2, 2008)

I run the Pace RC31 C-type on my singlespeed. I considered the Token/Trigon/Ritchey fork but due to its short a/c and my frame's 71.5º head angle I chose the Pace instead. I don't need my bike being squirrely. I'm very happy with everything about the Pace and it's available in two a/c lengths. I run the shorter one, corrected for 80mm.


----------



## djork (Nov 8, 2004)

The Token fork loks sweet, but its design as well as the Ritchey's is no more dated than the Pace. I'm not a big fan of road forks, and the Token looks like one, desin-wise.

I got the longer A-C P (440?) Pace because my bike came with a 100mm suspension fork. I think it corners well, but then I've not had any other experience with shorter rigid forks. I like the Pace, and I think it's super light. When I got it in the mail, I thought there was nothing in the box! It felt that light. I aslo considered White Brothers, but I got such a good deal on the Pace.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

djork said:


> The Token fork loks sweet, but its design as well as the Ritchey's is no more dated than the Pace. I'm not a big fan of road forks, and the Token looks like one, desin-wise.
> 
> I got the longer A-C P (440?) Pace because my bike came with a 100mm suspension fork. I think it corners well, but then I've not had any other experience with shorter rigid forks. I like the Pace, and I think it's super light. When I got it in the mail, I thought there was nothing in the box! It felt that light. I aslo considered White Brothers, but I got such a good deal on the Pace.


ok - for a 100mm fork 440 is as short as ist the Token for a 80mm fork. it is shorter than the fork it replaces yet it gives the same/good feeling on the trail. any longer and your bike would have become a sleeper as i mentioned above.


----------



## wykes (Jan 15, 2007)

*here it is*

so the frame arrived today, i've already striped the decals and found a guy in the area who will bead blast it for me, AND ordered a sweet hand made Kona head badge from Jen Green (check out her stuff, very nice).

SO I'm now trying to work out how old the frame is and what size fork I should go for.

Thanks for all the thoughts so far, but can anyone tell what year this bike was made?


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*cable hanger?*



wykes said:


> so the frame arrived today, i've already striped the decals and found a guy in the area who will bead blast it for me, AND ordered a sweet hand made Kona head badge from Jen Green (check out her stuff, very nice).
> 
> SO I'm now trying to work out how old the frame is and what size fork I should go for.
> 
> Thanks for all the thoughts so far, but can anyone tell what year this bike was made?


Do i see a cable hanger at the seatstay bridge just above the cantistuds? if so it is definitely before '98...anyway - definitely before the long travel suspension forks hit the market so you really,really need a short fork !


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

The Ti Hei Hei was around in 1995-1999. The earlier years had some comments about having too steep a head angle so a longer fork might not be a bad thing.

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/bikes/frameset/kona/hei-hei-frameset/PRD_351508_119crx.aspx


----------



## JAZ (Apr 22, 2005)

Have to agree with Nino, I ran a Pace style fork (Bontrager Race X-Lite) & liked (what at the time I thought was) the direct steering feel. Upgraded to the lower Ritchey's & the bike feels a heck of a lot better, way more responsive & very flickable once you get used to it.
When I first installed them I was worried because they looked a lot lower than the ones I replaced & felt very twitchy. But after riding & getting used to them I'm glad I changed as thinking back the older forks steering felt really lazy in comparison.
Some great rigid bike pictures you posted above, I'll take a picture of my WCS Ritchey based Salsa & post it up as (some of you) may like it.


----------



## ilostmypassword (Dec 9, 2006)

Go ti and ride it hard.


----------



## Hardtailforever (Feb 11, 2004)

As much as my weight weenie tendencies say to go carbon, you will never get a nicer fork than a custom Black Sheep. Seriously, treat yourself. As I said before, they can make it ride however you want and as tall or short as you want. You can tell them what type of suspension fork you want to emulate and they can mimic the ride height adjusted for sag of a specific fork. And on a Ti bike, you really can't go wrong with an equally hot Ti fork.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Hardtailforever said:


> As much as my weight weenie tendencies say to go carbon, you will never get a nicer fork than a custom Black Sheep. Seriously, treat yourself. As I said before, they can make it ride however you want and as tall or short as you want. You can tell them what type of suspension fork you want to emulate and they can mimic the ride height adjusted for sag of a specific fork. And on a Ti bike, you really can't go wrong with an equally hot Ti fork.


If aesthethics play the main factor Ti is the way to go - agreed. If it's about the ride quality it has to be the carbon!!

A Ti frame already is softer and flexier than most modern frames anyway so you might want to get some steering precision back in by using a good fork. An equally stiff Ti fork will weigh a ton and won't be as compliant anymore.


----------



## wykes (Jan 15, 2007)

*and here it is folks*

In the end I went with a ti from black sheep fabrication and the finished bike is complete, I'm so very happy with it. Unfortunately the recession and a major upcoming change in my personal life :eekster: have meant i've had to list it on ebay :madman: 
I've priced it at 3100, which doesn't quite cover the build cost but will save my neck if it sells... and if it doesn't i'm hitting the trails on this beauty for the next 50 years.

Guess who's secretly hoping it doesn't sell?


----------



## mattkock (Mar 19, 2009)

*Ti*

Ti








Did I say Ti? Ti!


----------



## longcat (Apr 24, 2008)

mattkock said:


> Ti
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what cranks are those?


----------



## conrad (Jan 27, 2004)

*ti all the way*

well nino is right carbon rides better & is lighter than ti...but I just couldn't go past my morati ti forks...it comes down to rider choice..technical trails yes I can feel the fork flexing..a bit.
I have updated the shimano 42 to a 40 ti from Mattias....a solid build...lite but not silly lite...:thumbsup: I'm tall & weigh 85kg.....so not possible to go very lite & last:nono:


----------



## johannes (Sep 24, 2005)

longcat said:


> what cranks are those?


Sweet Wings:thumbsup: (tubular chromalloy)


----------

