# Non-Shimano Mineral Oil for Shimano Hydraulic Brakes?



## kawarider (Jul 19, 2006)

Is there a type of non-Shimano mineral oil that I can use on Shimano hydraulic disc brakes?

Trying to figure out if this is like Mercedes recommending Mercedes brake fluid, when you can use any Dot 5 brake fluid. (Just an example!) Basically, is there some special Shimano formula that NEEDS to be used, or is there some mineral oil/mineral oil blend that can be substituted? 

Thanks for the help


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

some people have tried different oils.. even regular mineral oil from the drugstore.. but since you only change the oil after every couple of years or so.. why not get the "right" stuff... I bought a liter of Shimano oil.. filled 3 sets of brakes and the bottle is practically full.... and the liter bottle was cheaper than 2 of the 250ml ones...


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## dan0 (Oct 12, 2005)

shimano supposedly has an additive , I think the additive is the red color that gets darker if it get too hot
that said I used the shimano oil on my mavic hubs since its impossible to find mavic mineral oil


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

I've used and continue to use Magura Blood, which is Maguras own version of mineral oil brake fluid. 

drug store mineral oil is a bad choice, it's not mfg with braking systems in mind.


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## Movemint (Aug 16, 2006)

drug store mineral oil is a very bad choice. The oil is not as refined and is not 100% percent pure mineral oil. Never us drug store mineral oil.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Movemint said:


> drug store mineral oil is a very bad choice. The oil is not as refined and is not 100% percent pure mineral oil. Never us drug store mineral oil.


totally agree... I had a huge argument in a thread some days ago with a guy that used mineral oil from the drugstore.... I mean since one changes the oil about once every 2-3 years probably... why not get the "good stuff"... I bought a liter for 17 EUR...and I can probably make about 10 sets of brakes with that much and have some to spare....


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Use Pentosin 7.1, FeBi Mercedes Benz Hydraulic Fluid, or Castrol Power Steering fluid for Jaguar.


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## timms (Feb 15, 2007)

crisillo said:


> totally agree... I had a huge argument in a thread some days ago with a guy that used mineral oil from the drugstore.... I mean since one changes the oil about once every 2-3 years probably... why not get the "good stuff"... I bought a liter for 17 EUR...and I can probably make about 10 sets of brakes with that much and have some to spare....


I'm not sure if the person you're refering to is me. But after a number of weeks and many stops of my 200 pounds. The drug store bought mineral oil still works as well as the day I bled it.

I simply don't agree with your logic that "shimano" mineral oil is the good stuff. I think that there is no difference in performance.

Your and all other opinions are purely speculative with no actual experience to back it up.

I on the other have have used stock "shimano" as well as the drug store type and have noticed no difference. My opinion acually has some validity to it.

People, please do not speak out of ignorance , it is a very bad habit.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

timms said:


> I'm not sure if the person you're refering to is me. But after a number of weeks and many stops of my 200 pounds. The drug store bought mineral oil still works as well as the day I bled it.
> 
> I simply don't agree with your logic that "shimano" mineral oil is the good stuff. I think that there is no difference in performance.
> 
> ...


come on, Timms... what i mean is that going the cheap way is not always safe...

thanks for calling me ignorant... appreciate it... though I try to help with what "little" I know... 

as i said in the other thread I am glad it works for you.... although I wouldn't preach to use it..because you don't know of the long term effects that it may have, since you have only had it for a couple of weeks... again..great if it works for you... but I don't think $10 for the mineral oil bottle every couple of years will be a huge burden


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## Onie (Sep 15, 2005)

Meo0ow, baby!!! Who0phs! You said jaguar, that's why it purrrsss! 

Unto the concern here, better follow what's recommended(# 24, respectively), besides, like what crisillo have reiterated, since it's once in a blue moon you gonna change oil, why not do it right the first time. Better be safe than sorry later... Yeah, no matter how it may sound as a shrewd marketing scheme...

Cheers!


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## mtb_biker (Jan 27, 2004)

timms said:


> I'm not sure if the person you're refering to is me. But after a number of weeks and many stops of my 200 pounds. The drug store bought mineral oil still works as well as the day I bled it.
> 
> I simply don't agree with your logic that "shimano" mineral oil is the good stuff. I think that there is no difference in performance.
> 
> ...


Try bleeding your brakes with water, it will "work" as well.

If you've been around hydraulic brakes long enough to try Magura brakes with red fluid vs the blue stuff you'd quickly know that there is a difference in mineral oils and its not just a "smoke and mirror's" thing. Ride in cold weather, heat up the fluid a good bit, and your elitist attitude might change. Drug store mineral oil working for 2 weeks is no feat. On that same analogy, a car will work fine with one bolt in the wheel, but for how long and what conditions? Ride in the cold winter and then let us know why your pistons won't retract/extend properly.

Shimano mineral oil is cheap and requires little/no maintance once bled unlike dot brakes. It's worth the $10 peace of mind (and won't void your warranty).


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## sp3000 (Mar 25, 2007)

It's a simple as different "weight" oils, just like fork oils. I know a great bike shop that uses fork oil for their shimano brakes, however to be on the safe side I turned down the offer and used the shimano. My reasons are as follows: 1. you get the correct weight oil first go (this is the weight the master cylinder was designed to push!) 2. I know shimano uses additives, for example the red colour which makes it easier to see, there is also talk of additives that help seal life through the brake system. Bottom line... bleeding is a very occasional thing, if you feel like bleeding on a weekly basis, go for it and try everything you can to save a buck, otherwise go for the smart option of using the designed fluid for the job and do it once a year if that! apart from anything you will sleep better knowing that your brakes are performing as they where designed to!


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## heatstroke (Jul 1, 2003)

Been using pentosin, 2-3 yrs now on all my bikes


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## Flash (Jan 30, 2004)

I have a question. I've used Shimano oil and generic oil. It seems I've had better luck getting that final firm feel with Shimano fluid. With mineral oil the first oil is usually a bit soft then following pulls are better. I'd there a difference in viscosity? I know it's possible that sometimes I just get a better bleed as far as pushing all of the sir out vs missing a few hidden bubbles. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Flash (Jan 30, 2004)

Flash said:


> I have a question. I've used Shimano oil and generic oil. It seems I've had better luck getting that final firm feel with Shimano fluid. With mineral oil the first oil is usually a bit soft then following pulls are better. I'd there a difference in viscosity? I know it's possible that sometimes I just get a better bleed as far as pushing all of the sir out vs missing a few hidden bubbles.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


F'ing auto correct while typing with Slippery fingers. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Ausable (Jan 7, 2006)

Hi all, I will post below the result of a long search based on this forum and several other sources:
You can replace the Shimano and Magura mineral oils with either of the following: 

Pentosin CHF 7.1
Pentosin LHM Plus
FEBI M6162 

NO! Febi M6161 and NO! Pentosin CHF 11s, which are synthetic based.

All the above options (power steering fluids geneally used on euro cars like BMWs) are readily available at car supplies stores and 1/10th the price of bike specific equivalents. 

Hope this helps -


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Ausable said:


> All the above options are readily available at car supplies stores and 1/10th the price of bike specific equivalents.


How much brake fluid does the average mtb'r use? I just bought a liter of Shimano brake fluid for $17 to replace my old finished liter of Shimano brake fluid that I had for 6 years. A liter lasted me 6 years. Based on my new purchase price of $17 and assuming it lasts another 6 years, then my annual expense is less than $3 per year. A very minor expense compared to owning any decent level mountain bike. Where some choose to scrimp a few dollars amuses me.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I used 11s on brakes, it works fine.

Pentosin themselves said not to use 11s in systems requiring anything else. VW was like... yeah, just pour that **** in, whatever. One recommendation is trying to sell oil, one is trying to preserve parts inventory. 

But you never really know 100% whats going to happen a few years out, or mid brake on a steep trail. "Probably fine" isnt confidence inspiring. 

Just buy the lifetime supply of shimano oil for $25. Its exactly the right fluid, right additive package, and right viscosity for your shimano brakes, no questions asked. 

If I tore a line in the middle of a trip and needed fluid with no bike shops, yes. Pentosin. Its good to know you can use it. But for home use, its silly to not have shimano fluid.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

dan0 said:


> shimano supposedly has an additive , I think the additive is the red color that gets darker if it get too hot
> that said I used the shimano oil on my mavic hubs since its impossible to find mavic mineral oil


That's no additive. Mineral oil just turns black after exposure to heat. It also gasses out air which is why your brakes will go soft after getting them hot.



Jerk_Chicken said:


> Use Pentosin 7.1, FeBi Mercedes Benz Hydraulic Fluid, or Castrol Power Steering fluid for Jaguar.


Pentosin LHM is a mineral brake fluid for (some silly european) cars and heavy machinery that uses mineral oil because they are immersed in an axle full of gear oil. It works great in bike brakes that require mineral oil.

It is slightly thicker than Shimano oil at ambient temps but probably does better than Shimano oil in below freezing temps.


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## tilemachos (Jan 24, 2019)

Ausable said:


> Hi all, I will post below the result of a long search based on this forum and several other sources:
> You can replace the Shimano and Magura mineral oils with either of the following:
> 
> Pentosin CHF 7.1
> ...


PENTOZIN chf 11s is fully synthetic and better than plain mineral oil cause it has much better properties. (higher boiling point). It is perfectly safe to use it, just not to mix it with the old mineral oil. You must do 2 or 3 bleeds till you are sure that the system contains only chf 11s. After that it is totally ok to use it. Been using it since the second bleed of my zees, and the brake levers actually feel better.


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## SilverRubicon (Mar 13, 2020)

Thought this was interesting.... baby oil used in a Shimano brake for a year.


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

I've used the Tektro fluid one time when I refused to pay what they were asking for a little bottle of Shimano fluid. I ended picking up an almost full liter of the Shimano brake fluid off someone a little while later.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

tilemachos said:


> PENTOZIN chf 11s is fully synthetic and better than plain mineral oil cause it has much better properties. (higher boiling point). It is perfectly safe to use it, just not to mix it with the old mineral oil. You must do 2 or 3 bleeds till you are sure that the system contains only chf 11s. After that it is totally ok to use it. Been using it since the second bleed of my zees, and the brake levers actually feel better.


I'm unclear where the benefit lies when you have to perform 2 or 3 bleeds to purge the OEM mineral oil brake fluid. Particularly when the cost of PENTOZIN chf 11s is pretty close in price, but generally cheaper by about 10% to 20%. I recently paid $17 for a liter of Shimano and I saw a liter of PENTOZIN chf 11s between $13 and $18.

Regarding boiling points; This seems a bit moot since Shimano Brake Fluid boiling point is 536°. I can't find the boiling point of PENTOZIN chf 11s, but would it really matter at those temps? I suspect those brake pads would be glowing bright enough to light a night ride at those temps. I prolly won't be subjecting my bike to those conditions.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cleared2land said:


> I'm unclear where the benefit lies when you have to perform 2 or 3 bleeds to purge the OEM mineral oil brake fluid. Particularly when the cost of PENTOZIN chf 11s is pretty close in price, but generally cheaper by about 10% to 20%. I recently paid $17 for a liter of Shimano and I saw a liter of PENTOZIN chf 11s between $13 and $18.
> 
> Regarding boiling points; This seems a bit moot since Shimano Brake Fluid boiling point is 536°. I can't find the boiling point of PENTOZIN chf 11s, but would it really matter at those temps? I suspect those brake pads would be glowing bright enough to light a night ride at those temps. I prolly won't be subjecting my bike to those conditions.


The issue isn't boiling point. The issue is mineral oils contain air and degrade with heat well below that temperature. Which better fluids don't.

The stress and temperature is what turns mineral oil black. It does this in conditions where better fluids don't.
The temperature rise also causes mineral oils to release air. Because mineral oil at ambient temperatures and pressures contains about 8% dissolved air by volume. As temperatures rise this air expands, can no longer stay dissolved and gasses out to make your brake spongey and need bled.

Once air bubbles form they take a very long time to redissolve.

These are some of the reasons why no high performance brake applications use mineral oil as a brake fluid.
Even Magura who make Moto and MTB brakes do not use mineral oil for Moto: https://magura.com/en/components/bike/disc-brakes/productdetailpage/?p=25664


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ Perhaps you operate your bike at those extraordinary levels, I never have. Do you honestly feel that you are able to detect a performance difference based on inputs of any level? 

Additionally, in tens of thousands of miles on my Shimano's and I have never observed black brake fluid from any of my mineral oil brakes.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cleared2land said:


> ^^^ Perhaps you operate your bike at those extraordinary levels, I never have. Do you honestly feel that you are able to detect a performance difference based on inputs of any level?
> 
> Additionally, in tens of thousands of miles on my Shimano's and I have never observed black brake fluid from any of my mineral oil brakes.


I possibly ride steeper vertical than you. Have you ever heated a disc rotor enough to discolour it?
The oxide colours on my rotors suggest around 300C peak temperatures.

It's not about miles ridden.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I've cooked 160's to the point of discoloration. I use 203's now, and most definitely need them. Never colored a 203 yet.

Shimanos are extremely reliable and work pretty well for being dirt cheap brakes. For the $99 shipped for the pair, I cant complain about my slx brakes. Mineral oil isnt perfect, but its what comes in them, so many of us make the best of it and it ends up working out.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

It's in those extreme conditions that I've had the most trouble with shimanos and their bite points. You can have what seem like perfectly normal brakes, bled perfectly, etc., but push them to those kind of operating temps and they just go all wonky. Luckily their rotors are pretty good and dissipate heat well, but I'm done dealing with their piss poor engineering and support after I exhaust my current supply. I used to bake the hell out of avid mechanicals back in the day during a short stint where I used them. Man those things would cook like nothing else.


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## tilemachos (Jan 24, 2019)

Cleared2land said:


> I'm unclear where the benefit lies when you have to perform 2 or 3 bleeds to purge the OEM mineral oil brake fluid. Particularly when the cost of PENTOZIN chf 11s is pretty close in price, but generally cheaper by about 10% to 20%. I recently paid $17 for a liter of Shimano and I saw a liter of PENTOZIN chf 11s between $13 and $18.
> 
> Regarding boiling points; This seems a bit moot since Shimano Brake Fluid boiling point is 536°. I can't find the boiling point of PENTOZIN chf 11s, but would it really matter at those temps? I suspect those brake pads would be glowing bright enough to light a night ride at those temps. I prolly won't be subjecting my bike to those conditions.


you bleed once , i don't mean you have to do 3 bleeds after months apart to flush out the old oil. i mean , when you do the bleed, repeat one more time , (not after months) just to be sure that there isn't any mineral oil left. After that you almost immediately feel the lever better, (well better feel for my tastes), and it doesn't stiffen in very low temperatures. for the boiling points , but you are right , these are temperatures that not even dtm cars reach. if someone reaches these temperatures than he or she has more significant problems like pad wear and rotor disformation.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Pentosin is much much thicker than Magura, Magura than Shimano and Shimano than *Putoline HPX R 2,5*


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Groove_c said:


> Pentosin is much much thicker than Magura, Magura than Shimano and Shimano than *Putoline HPX R 2,5*


At ambient temps Putoline HPX2.5 is much thinner and Pentosin LHM is thicker.

In very cold temps the Pentosin and HPX2.5 will flow better than the Shimano oil.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Actually no, Pentosin which is much thicker at ambient, can only be even thicker at lower temps - no thinner!
So no, Pentosin won't flow better than Shimano in very cold temps.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Groove_c said:


> Actually no, Pentosin which is much thicker at ambient, can only be even thicker at lower temps - no thinner!
> So no, Pentosin won't flow better than Shimano in very cold temps.


Let me introduce you to two well established measurements of oil performance.
Viscosity index & Pour Point.

Viscosity index is a measure how much an oil thins out between 40C and 100C. But it also works for higher and lower temperatures. Higher viscosity index means the oil changes viscosity less with temperature.

Pentosin LHM has a viscosity index of 340. (pretty damn good).
Standard mineral oil has a viscosity index of 100.
Shimano Mineral oil, let me know if you find one.

Then pour point. This is the low temperature point where oil can still be poured out the bottle.
Pentosin LHM has a pour point of -54C (this is often the point where they stop measuring).
Standard mineral oils with a viscosity the same as Shimano have a pour point of -30C.

Let us all know if you can find a data sheet or MSDS for Shimano mineral oil.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Putoline HPX R 2.5 is the best )))
Actually much better than any DOT )))

Pentosin DOT 4 LV is better than (SRAM) Motul DOT 5.1 and much much better than Motul DOT 4 )
And DOT 4 is less agressive on seals than DOT 5.1.

As one can see in this table, Putoline HPX R (2.5 WT) remains consistent at any temp, that's why in the column marked as "VI", the number is very high (468), whereas Shimano mineral oil is only at 98, because of huge properties' discrepancies at different temps.

The lower the number in column marked as "VI", the less consistent is the fluid at different temps.

Don't be scared because of "only" 180°C, because it says that it withstands *at least* 180°C, whereas Shimano mineral oil is limited to *max* 225°C.

Once it gets cold, Shimano mineral oil properties vary to much and it gets much thicker than it's at ambient temp and when you push the lever(s) relatively quickly, since the oil is very thick it can't follow lever(s) movements as quickly.
So imagine you push the lever(s) completely and the oil is pushed completely as well.
But when you release the lever(s), the oil flows back slower than the speed of lever(s) release.
So when you push a second time, you compress air between the oil and the lever, since the oil is still further away from the master piston of the lever.

This is why me and many other knowledgeable bikers have replaced Shimano mineral oil (10WT) years ago by *Putoline HPX R (2.5 WT)* premium quality synthetic oil, which is much thinner than Shimano mineral oil at ambient temp and when very very cold, maintains almost same viscosity as at ambient temperature and thus oil can follow the movements of the lever without problems.
And despite being much thinner than original Shimano mineral oil, it's not less heat resistant!

No degradation of any seals after 3-4 years of usage of *Putoline HPX R (2.5 WT).
*Very consistent and firm lever feel at all times.


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Where are y'all getting your Pentosin LHM? Automotive shop?


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

I wouldn't buy Pentosin LHM+.
Pentosin LHM+ is 91.5 % thicker than Shimano at ambient temp.
Pentosin LHM+ is 120 % thicker than Shimano at 40°C.
Pentosin LHM+ is 222 % thicker than Putoline HPX R 2.5 at ambient temp.
Pentosin LHM+ is 176 % thicker than Putoline HPX R 2.5 at 40°C.


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## Flash (Jan 30, 2004)

So is there a consensus? I'm about to bleed my XTs. I have Shimano fluid. Are there better accessible options? 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

If you can get Putoline HPX R 2.5 it's the best you can find and is cheaper than Shimano.
At least in Europe.


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## Flash (Jan 30, 2004)

Groove_c said:


> If you can get Putoline HPX R 2.5 it's the best you can find and is cheaper than Shimano.
> At least in Europe.


A synthetic fork oil? Interesting. Have you used in in Shimano brakes? Any long term observations? I'm concerned with seal degradation as well as performance.

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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

3-4 years experience on XT M785, Saint M820, XT M8000, XTR M9020 and now XTR M9120.
0 degradation. seals like new.

It's almost like water and despite much much lower viscosity than Shimano, still as or more heatresistant than Shimano, because synthetic oil is of much better quality than mineral oil.

Putoline HPX R 2.5 is 1336% thinner than Shimano at -40°C.
Putoline HPX R 2.5 is 68% thinner than Shimano at ambient temp.
Putoline HPX R 2.5 is 25.5% thinner than Shimano at 40°C.
Putoline HPX R 2.5 is 21% *thicker* than Shimano at 100°C = more heat resistant.


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## Flash (Jan 30, 2004)

Groove_c said:


> 3-4 years experience on XT M785, Saint M820, XT M8000, XTR M9020 and now XTR M9120.
> 0 degradation. seals like new.
> 
> It's almost like water and despite much much lower viscosity than Shimano, still as or more heatresistant than Shimano, because synthetic oil is of much better quality than mineral oil.
> ...


Good info. Thanks.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Using Putoline HPX R 2.5 also for my Rockshox Reverb Stealth, since they use there 2.5 WT mineral oil as well.
+ in my Fox fork.
If you look at the price of 120 ml Shimano, 120 ml Rockshox Reverb mineral and 1 L Fox oil...


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Damn, this Putoline HPX R2.5 is a double use... brake line AND my Rockshox Charger damper?!


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

You have to see what oil is used in your Rockshox Charger damper.


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Groove_c said:


> You have to see what oil is used in your Rockshox Charger damper.


They use Maxima Plush 3wt oil.

Hummm, can't seem to find Putoline in Canada other than ordering it from the UK at $30CDN shipping for a $15 bottle of oil. Ouch!


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

https://www.bikersworldstore.co.uk/putoline-hpx-2-5-suspension-oil-1l.htmlhttps://www.dirtbikebitz.com/en-CA/Putoline-HPX-R-25W-1-Litre-Fork-Oil/d57127852.htm?colour=Clear

https://www.tenkateracingproducts.com/putoline-hpx-r-2-5-1ltr-830270219.html

https://www.splatshop.co.uk/putoline-hpx-fork-oil.html


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Thanks for the sources Groove. Unfortunately some don't ship to Canada and the ones that do, it's 16£ to ship to Canada.

I still got a lot of Shimano oil left so I'd probably just use that up for now.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

I have 3 bottles.
Have ordered 1 and it's also 1 on the bill, but 3 were in the box )))
Haven't contacted them to return them 2 other bottles )


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Groove_c said:


> Putoline HPX R 2.5 is the best )))
> Actually much better than any DOT )))


The Putoline has a very good viscosity index. One of the best I have found. But there are two factors which IMO need checked before brake use.

1. Dissolved air. This may be no better than straight mineral oil. The LHM fluids seem to release air better and hold less air dissolved. Which means less gas out when the fluid gets hot.
2. Corrosion. In forks and shocks we have found shims corroding only with synthetic fluids and not with mineral. Torco and Redline are the common problems. This is an unknown with the Putoline as I haven't seen any long term use of it.

LHM and DOT fluids are very good at the above because they are brake fluids and designed and tested for those criteria.

What is the source of that comparison table you put up? Because it is in conflict with Putolines own data sheet: https://api.kroon-oil.com/pdf/en/informationsheet/part/1735/EXP/PI-PF2009-hpx-r-25w-EN.pdf

Putoline have a pour point of -33C (most synthetics don't go that cold). The chart lists a -40C viscosity of only 56 cSt which is totally impossible. The table is unreliable. Easily found data is not listed and listed data is wrong.

-40C viscosity will be thousands of cSt. Below the pour point you can only measure cP, not cSt and it will be 10's of thousands.

Pentosin LHM has a -40C viscosity of 1100 cSt (very very good) and a pour point of -54C. Castrol LHM+ is 1150 cSt and that chart lists it as 400 cSt.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

on a german site, if you scroll down:
https://radtechnik.awiki.org/disctech.html

I've been using Putoline for like 3-4 years on XT M785, Saint M820, XT M8000, XTR M9020 and now on XTR M9120 and no problems.
My weight is 100 kg (without gear and bike).
I ride steep stuff and also very fast.
No problems until now.
Everything works like on the first day.

My 203 mm XTR Freeza rotors are slightly discolored, but they still work same.

When you add to cart Putoline on german amazon, you insta will see that most common stuff that is also bought together with it is Shimano bleed kit with funnel ))))


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Anyways, with Putoline (unlike with Shimano) I can actuate the brake lever as fast as I want in cold and even not completely releasing it and never wandering bite point and Putoline reacts with same speed as the lever/caliper.
+ it makes your lever feel slightly firmer than Shimano (placebo?), since you can't really compress it as much as Shimano with higher viscosity.
Not as much play as with Shimano, when the pads are already against the rotor.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Have disassembled my old XT M785 and M8000, 1 caliper and 1 lever and no corrosion and seals still of same size and no visual damage + they're not stiff at all, but rather flexible/elastic, like they should be.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

On german forums there are hundreds, if not thousands of guys using Pultoline for a long time and they're all happy with it as well.
Never heard of any problems with it until now.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Groove_c said:


> on a german site, if you scroll down:
> https://radtechnik.awiki.org/disctech.html
> 
> I've been using Putoline for like 3-4 years on XT M785, Saint M820, XT M8000, XTR M9020 and now on XTR M9120 and no problems.
> ...


It's a bit concerning they've got the fluid data so wrong.

Here's a thread with pictures of shim corrosion from synthetic oils: https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/shim-discolouration-thread-1103861.html


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Groove_c said:


> On german forums there are hundreds, if not thousands of guys using Pultoline for a long time and they're all happy with it as well.
> Never heard of any problems with it until now.


From my original experience, it seems to be working better in the cold..still nowhere near as good as my Hope brakes, but not pumping up as bad (but we haven't had crazy cold temps since January too). Seems decent.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Dougal said:


> It's a bit concerning they've got the fluid data so wrong.
> 
> Here's a thread with pictures of shim corrosion from synthetic oils: https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/shim-discolouration-thread-1103861.html


Well, they are shimano brakes, so you know they are going to fail eventually somehow...


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Well, I don't insist that Shimano brakes are faultless (most of them still are), but moving from Shimano mineral oil to Putoline synthetic oil is the best thing that can be done to them (improvement) for not much $$.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

I’m in the USA and Putoline hpx 2.5 fork oil is not easy to find. Out of curiosity shouldn’t any 2.5w fork oil work? 


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## angrybee (Nov 22, 2005)

mtbbiker said:


> I'm in the USA and Putoline hpx 2.5 fork oil is not easy to find. Out of curiosity shouldn't any 2.5w fork oil work?


I've just switched to Red Line "Like Water" for my BR-M8020, as I could not find any Putoline HPX 2.5wt in Japan... So far I can feel "bit" better lever responce and not "so much" wandering bite point.


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

mtbbiker said:


> I'm in the USA and Putoline hpx 2.5 fork oil is not easy to find. Out of curiosity shouldn't any 2.5w fork oil work?


Just found a source in the US. obasanseattle.com sells Putoline HPX 2.5. Pretty decent price at $10.US/liter. Nice that they ship to Canada. Let's see if they deliver...


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## .je (Jan 15, 2019)

This is a thought experiment, but what do you think of using Clipper Oil in the brakes? 
https://www.thewinnersbrand.com/docs/default-source/sds/Andis-Clipper-Oil-65-1851.pdf?sfvrsn=2
It's straight paraffinic mineral oil with a specific gravity of 0.8607 which is a little more than Shimano's 0.83, but "viscosity > 7 mm2/s (7 cSt) at 40 deg C" which is just about the Shimano's. Elsewhere it's 80.6 SUS or about 15.8cSt at 40 deg C, in line with other brake fluids'.

It's also $4 for 120mL, where Redline is $15 and Shimano is $20.

?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

.je said:


> It's also $4 for 120mL, where Redline is $15 and Shimano is $20.


You can get a liter of Shimano Brake fluid for $20 or slightly more.


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## .je (Jan 15, 2019)

Best price I can find in Canada is $47 with shipping from the other side of the continent. It's $55 in any store. Nutty.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Ouch!


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Well, just a heads up. That obasanseattle.com bike store site is a fake! Orders get shipped from from store in China called Globalfashions. My order took 3mts to arrive and when it did, it was a pair of cheap $5 safety glasses. 

When I contacted them, they were quick to allow me to keep the glasses and that I would get a 30% discount if I reorder my suspension oils. Huh?! After insisting on a refund, they bluntly said the error was not theirs but their shipping company. How is that the customer's problem is beyond me. Bunch of crooks. I'll be calling my CC to file a complaint.


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Well, I finally managed to get a hold of some Putoline HPX-R 2.5w oil from a place that had reasonable shipping rates to Canada. Still not cheap but seems like it is paying off.

As the temp started getting colder, my rear brakes lever started to get the dredded wandering bite point. There were no issues all summer long. No issues with the front brake.

I had picked up a bit of a weeping piston when I bled the brakes earlier with Shimano oil. I figured since I was going to break it down for a full cleaning and inspect the piston seals/aprons, I might as well switch the system over to Putoline. Well, in my haste, I did a bad bleed and ended up blowing the diaphragm in my master cylinder. Fortunately I have an identical set of brakes for a HT build for next year so I ended up using those.

Anyway, the wandering bite is gone, at least not that I can detect. Quick pumping does not change the bite point anymore. Last night I did a trail ride with a buddy. It was 0C , not including wind chill in the open areas. The rear brake with Putoline worked out great. Lever response was just as it was in the warm apartment. The front brake lever with Shimano oil was noticeably sluggish in the cold. I'll run this setup for a bit and if all works well and I don't see any degrading seals or leaks, I'll probably switch the front brakes over to Putoline as well.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I definitely get the wandering bite point at 0°F/-18°C. I tested this just last week, although I've known about it. It definitely starts in the single-digit F temperatures and only gets worse from there. The HPX is a little better...but only a little IME.

I also did a day last year in around 40F on super steep stuff all day where I definitely still had the issue with the HPX, it seems that the more extreme the terrain (slope) or temperature (cold), the more prevalent the problem is.

I'm really done with shimano brakes, they have some great features, like great hydraulic and mechanical advantage, but they go and ruin it with the wandering bite (return port too small), weeping caliper seals, lever-seal/MC that will eventually fail, and failure to supply any replacement parts. I'm extending the life a little with the HPX and allowing the ones I have to continue to work a little longer, but as they fail or I run out of brake pads, I'm replacing them.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jayem said:


> I definitely get the wandering bite point at 0°F/-18°C. I tested this just last week, although I've known about it. It definitely starts in the single-digit F temperatures and only gets worse from there. The HPX is a little better...but only a little IME.
> 
> I also did a day last year in around 40F on super steep stuff all day where I definitely still had the issue with the HPX, it seems that the more extreme the terrain (slope) or temperature (cold), the more prevalent the problem is.
> 
> I'm really done with shimano brakes, they have some great features, like great hydraulic and mechanical advantage, but they go and ruin it with the wandering bite (return port too small), weeping caliper seals, lever-seal/MC that will eventually fail, and failure to supply any replacement parts. I'm extending the life a little with the HPX and allowing the ones I have to continue to work a little longer, but as they fail or I run out of brake pads, I'm replacing them.


What's next?


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## rain164845 (Jul 6, 2008)

What about motorex 2.5 fork oil?

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rain164845 said:


> What about motorex 2.5 fork oil?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I've used it. Works fine in usual riding temps but is 50% thicker than Shimano oil. 15cst vs 10cst @40C.

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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Dougal said:


> What's next?


I moved to Hope brakes last winter for one of my Fatbikes, V4/E4 for my Enduro bike this last summer. Was close to getting TRP, but they didn't have the right models available. I'll probably put more X2s on the other fatbike and XC bike, they work well in that application. For the Enduro bike, I "over"-rotored it with 220 and 203, so that makes up for the lack of power with the bigger Hope brakes.


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Is the Shimano wandering bite issue a result of their calliper design? I've been searching Google and found folks mixing Shimano master cylinders with Magura calipers, calling them Shiguras. Supposedly the best of both worlds.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Trinimon said:


> Is the Shimano wandering bite issue a result of their calliper design? I've been searching Google and found folks mixing Shimano master cylinders with Magura calipers, calling them Shiguras. Supposedly the best of both worlds.


I stand to be corrected but I believe people are doing this more with the intent of avoiding Magura's plastic levers and plastic bleed port screws on the MT5s and other offerings, than to address any Shimano-related issues.


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## blcman (Feb 1, 2007)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I stand to be corrected but I believe people are doing this more with the intent of avoiding Magura's plastic levers and plastic bleed port screws on the MT5s, than to address any Shimano-related issues.


Yeah that's what I think also. Keeping the Shimano calipers and replacing the MC lever unit. That make me believe the wandering bite point is in the MC area.


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## Groove_c (Nov 25, 2016)

Putoline HPX R 2.5W synthetic oil viscosity/consistensy vs. Shimano mineral oil and some others at different temp.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

And your point is?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Trinimon said:


> Is the Shimano wandering bite issue a result of their calliper design? I've been searching Google and found folks mixing Shimano master cylinders with Magura calipers, calling them Shiguras. Supposedly the best of both worlds.


Lever I believe. It's been a while since I've gone back and looked at all the tech information. There's a wealth of it on ridemonkey.com, including all the various issues that affect shimano brakes. I believe this one is the lever where the replenishment port is basically too small to return enough fluid, so it effectively "pumps up", even though you don't have air in the brake (normal brakes "pumping up" usually have a soft lever and take several squeezes to start making power). This is almost the opposite effect, the lever engagement moves further out each time you brake. It tends to happen IME during any time you rapidly let go and re-engage, like happens in a lot of steep tech terrain. Then cold seems to amplify it (which would make sense if the port is too small). Today it was -5F and despite using the HPX 2.5, they still did it and it was very noticeable. Luckily in this terrain I'm not doing that kind of braking much, but with older XTs and super steep descents it was not fun to have that lever moving out. Your fingers don't get nearly the same amount of leverage so you end up squeezing hard for much less leverage, which results in poor slowing/stopping.

It's almost like they are functioning like a "closed" brake system, one that as it heats up and expands, moves the engagement point further out (until ultimately it jams the caliper, but that's the full extreme end of it). I had a set of older cheap Formula brakes that did this too, damn near the same exact thing if not exactly the same.

You wouldn't notice it much on level ground, except in the cold riding like today, but the best way to describe is braking hard, let go and immediately re-engage. That seems to move the lever further and further out with each squeeze.

Caliper is pretty simple, there's nothing that could be doing it there, it's just pistons and seals. The calipers on some shimano brakes do weep oil if you leave them stationary for extended periods. Some believe the relatively "rougher" texture of the ceramic pistons may be the reason. That could let in a little air, but air in the system is easy to diagnose, since it's compressible (soft lever squeeze).


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## Verttii (Aug 20, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Lever I believe. It's been a while since I've gone back and looked at all the tech information. There's a wealth of it on ridemonkey.com, including all the various issues that affect shimano brakes. I believe this one is the lever where the replenishment port is basically too small to return enough fluid, so it effectively "pumps up", even though you don't have air in the brake (normal brakes "pumping up" usually have a soft lever and take several squeezes to start making power). This is almost the opposite effect, the lever engagement moves further out each time you brake. It tends to happen IME during any time you rapidly let go and re-engage, like happens in a lot of steep tech terrain. Then cold seems to amplify it (which would make sense if the port is too small). Today it was -5F and despite using the HPX 2.5, they still did it and it was very noticeable. Luckily in this terrain I'm not doing that kind of braking much, but with older XTs and super steep descents it was not fun to have that lever moving out. Your fingers don't get nearly the same amount of leverage so you end up squeezing hard for much less leverage, which results in poor slowing/stopping.
> 
> It's almost like they are functioning like a "closed" brake system, one that as it heats up and expands, moves the engagement point further out (until ultimately it jams the caliper, but that's the full extreme end of it). I had a set of older cheap Formula brakes that did this too, damn near the same exact thing if not exactly the same.
> 
> ...


Good analysis!

The problem definitely seems to be linked to flow of the brake fluid, or something restricting it, as higher viscosity of the fluid seems to make situation worse. This might also partly explain why some people are suffering from this problem (more) while others don't seem to notice it, which I believe comes down how people are using the brakes; 
Some seem to prefer style with sharp lever activation and then returning lever to full rest position, while others keep the lever slightly pressed when expecting multiple/constant braking sections ahead. By letting the lever all the way up makes the system more prone to this "pumping" effect, while "always slightly activated lever" keeps the reservoir ports blocked and fluid amount on the circuit stays same and there is no pumping. This is partly related to what kind of terrain we ride, but also to personal preference/style. I do ride mostly on flat places, but regularly visit places with steeper/faster terrain, but I do not suffer from brake pump on shimano brakes. I usually don't let the levers all the way up when expecting repeated braking sections, ie. when riding in steep/sketchy terrain...

In addition to the replenshment port, the hose and caliper ports could play a role on this, as many people seem to have this problem only/mostly on their rear brake, which has longer hose and more spots where the hose can be bent too tightly, further restricting the flow. Front brake hose is shorter and less likely to be bent sharply, making it less prone to restrict fluid flow even if all ports are same size in the lever/caliper.

Another big contribution could be the caliper piston seals. The Caliper piston seals generate most of the force by pulling the pistons back, which then pushes the fluid thru hose and all the way back to the main piston and reservoir. If this force from the caliper piston seals is too weak to begin with, it will not have enough force to push fluid back thru the small ports, especially when the hose is long and possibly sharply bent on rear brake. The rubber seals would also get a bit less elastic when temperatures get cold, which would partly also make the pumping problem more pronounced in cold.

So, I agree what @Jayem says, but I believe problem is not *only* the lever(and its too small replenishment ports), but has likely something to do with the hose and/or caliper too...


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## Poppa Weelie (Jun 18, 2012)

I looked for an alternative to Shimano mineral oil a while back. I can't remember all the specs/ comparison results but I finally decided on mil-h-5606a.









Hydraulic Fluid Quart With Screw Cap MIL-H-5606A | Aircraft Spruce


Hydraulic Fluid Quart With Screw Cap MIL-H-5606A Mineral oil based hydraulic fluid for use with brake and hydraulic systems with synthetic rubber seals.




www.aircraftspruce.com





It seemed like it met or exceeded all the required specs for things like boiling point, freezing point, viscosity, safe for synthetic rubber seals... I've been using this for 4 years (and approx 8,000 miles) with my Shimano XT brakes and I haven't had any trouble or issues. If anybody looks into this and notices an issue with the specs, or anything else that should be concerning, I'd be interested to know. It's the same exact color as the Shimano stuff and is commonly used for aircraft. I wouldn't be surprised if it is actually the same stuff that Shimano rebrands.

Current price with shipping to the lower 48 puts it just under $20.00 for a quart. Way cheaper if you buy it by the gallon. You could probably buy a gallon, slap Shimano stickers on it and sell it on Ebay for $20.00/ liter.

If you can find a liter of Shimano for the same price, I'd go that way. In the days of the "Rona" I can't find a liter of Shimano mineral oil for under $30.00.


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## bikeofreaks (Dec 31, 2020)

I am living in Qatar was not able to locate any LBS selling Shimano Oil (even Shimao hydraulic bike levers, brake pads not available here, I bought online)

Oil and liquid products cannot be imported by Air.
Automobile oil shipping by Air is restricted.

Checked in local automobile shops for Hydraulic suspension oil and brake oil. After some searching came across one dealer who had stock of Toyota Hydraulic Suspension AHC fluid 2.5L can.
I bought this primarily for servicing XC30 TK front suspension fork. I had to replace damaged brake lever (BL-MT200), for bleeding I used Toyota Hydraulic Suspension AHC fluid, Brakes are working fine, Its been around a week, did not feel any difference in performance.

I did not service XC 30 TK fork yet.

Below images of Toyota Hydraulic Suspension AHC fluid and Shimano Fluid (Collected from Internet).









Boiling point chart from bikerumor forum.










Thank You.
Suds


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

bikeofreaks said:


> I am living in Qatar was not able to locate any LBS selling Shimano Oil (even Shimao hydraulic bike levers, brake pads not available here, I bought online)
> 
> Oil and liquid products cannot be imported by Air.
> Automobile oil shipping by Air is restricted.
> ...


Misleading graph, because the boiling point of mineral oil with water in it will be 100°C, it's not the mineral oil that will boil, but the water will and it will turn to gas, which is the absolute worst thing for a brake system. That's why DOT is hydroscopic, because that's better than having free-water in there.


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

Anyone know where Putoline HPX R 2.5w can be purchased here in the states? ..


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Misleading graph, because the boiling point of mineral oil with water in it will be 100°C, it's not the mineral oil that will boil, but the water will and it will turn to gas, which is the absolute worst thing for a brake system. That's why DOT is hydroscopic, because that's better than having free-water in there.


Sure, but 100c is crazy hot, its boiling and skin burning... If you hit those temps, you'd get localized boiling and brake loss. This is uncommon for bikes. Im sure some may have this problem, but overwhelmingly people don't. Thats why mineral oil brakes and their non absorbed water are so popular and common; they work.


SB Trails said:


> Anyone know where Putoline HPX R 2.5w can be purchased here in the states? ..


You'd have to special order it, but honestly... why? A damn near lifetime supply of shimano brake fluid is $20. Why special order the wrong fluid when the right one is so incredibly cheap?


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

Its not the money at all... I like the idea of a thinner Oil being used... Will help prevent wandering bite point... as well as less "fluid push" feel.. Plus i just like experimenting with new things


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

One Pivot said:


> You'd have to special order it, but honestly... why? A damn near lifetime supply of shimano brake fluid is $20. Why special order the wrong fluid when the right one is so incredibly cheap?


Because it's thinner to combat the problem of the wandering bite point, which happens on the real steep stuff where your brakes get really hot. It also works better in any cool weather.


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Six months in with Putoline HPX 2.5w in my FS brakes. No leaking seals, no fading, no wandering bite points. Worked amazingly well down to -16C when my front brake with Shimano oil started getting sluggish. Bled the front brakes with Putoline when I got back from that ride, no more sluggish front brakes the rest of the winter rides. We'll see how it holds up once it starts getting stinking hot. I'll do a rear brake bleed in June/July just to see what the fluid looks like.


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## Vicrider (Feb 1, 2010)

Trinimon said:


> Six months in with Putoline HPX 2.5w in my FS brakes. No leaking seals, no fading, no wandering bite points. Worked amazingly well down to -16C when my front brake with Shimano oil started getting sluggish. Bled the front brakes with Putoline when I got back from that ride, no more sluggish front brakes the rest of the winter rides. We'll see how it holds up once it starts getting stinking hot. I'll do a rear brake bleed in June/July just to see what the fluid looks like.


Hey Trinimon,

Did you find a way to get the Putoline HPX R 2.5 in Canada?

Cheers.


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Vicrider said:


> Hey Trinimon,
> 
> Did you find a way to get the Putoline HPX R 2.5 in Canada?
> 
> Cheers.


Yeah, ordered it off Splatshop.co.uk. Damn shipping cost as much as the 2 liters! The other sources were either sold out or don't ship to Canada.


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## Echeve (10 mo ago)

Groove_c said:


> on a german site, if you scroll down:
> https://radtechnik.awiki.org/disctech.html
> 
> I've been using Putoline for like 3-4 years on XT M785, Saint M820, XT M8000, XTR M9020 and now on XTR M9120 and no problems.
> ...


WOW!!!!! I can´t believe I found this forum!!!!! I have had several Shimano XT brakes and bled them properly - no wandering bit point- but with my actual bike I have not been able to bleed them and avoid that issue. Brakes are Shimano 501/520. I have gone through anything unthinkable to make them work properly as my previous XT8000 and XT785 (numbering might not be right). Bled them weekly in any possible way or position, replace insert and olive on the hose at the lever, overfilling, you name it, I did it. Last I did was replace the master cylinder piston at the lever as it was loosing a bit of oil...... but still wandering point 
Long story short, Putoline oil will arrive tomorrow and I'm going to fully bleed them with this oil..... Groove_C you are my hero!!!!!! Thank you soooo much!!!

The question I have is: as my brakes have Shimano mineral oil, what would be the best way to remove shimano oil and add Putoline oil? regular gravity bleed will get rid of shimano? Should I add Putoline oil in the lever funnel so it pushes down Shimano oil? should I empty shimano oil before adding Putoline oil by removing the lever cap and open the caliper bleed port? a detailed procedure is really really appreciated

Thanks

Echeve


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Echeve said:


> Long story short, Putoline oil will arrive tomorrow and I'm going to fully bleed them with this oil..... Groove_C you are my hero!!!!!! Thank you soooo much!!!
> 
> The question I have is: as my brakes have Shimano mineral oil, what would be the best way to remove shimano oil and add Putoline oil? regular gravity bleed will get rid of shimano? Should I add Putoline oil in the lever funnel so it pushes down Shimano oil? should I empty shimano oil before adding Putoline oil by removing the lever cap and open the caliper bleed port? a detailed procedure is really really appreciated


I drained my shimano brakes by replacing the brake pads with a bleed block, connecting an empty funnel to the bleed valve at the master cylinder and connecting a hose to a bottle at the caliper bleed port and let gravity do its thing for a couple hours until there's nothing coming out the bleed port. Then I fill the funnel with Putoline and pump the lever to get it going till it flows out the caliper end. I'll run two funnels worth of Putoline through. Haven't noticed any degradation of my brakes with whatever minimal shimano mineral oil was left in the system.


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## Echeve (10 mo ago)

Trinimon said:


> I drained my shimano brakes by replacing the brake pads with a bleed block, opening up the connecting an empty funnel to the bleed valve at the master cylinder and connecting a hose to a bottle at the caliper bleed port and let gravity do its thing for a couple hours until there's nothing coming out the bleed port. Then I fill the funnel with Putoline and pump the lever to get it going till it flows out the caliper end. I'll run two funnels worth of Putoline through. Haven't noticed any degradation of my brakes with whatever minimal shimano mineral oil was left in the system.


thanks so much!! I´ll try this way, most likely I´ll let shimano oil drain overnight


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

Echeve said:


> thanks so much!! I´ll try this way, most likely I´ll let shimano oil drain overnight


Glad to help. That Putoline works awesome. Three winter seasons in so far and zero regrets. Works great in summer too.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Why drain the existing fluid? Treat it like a fluid purge and just add new fluid in cup at master cylinder reservoir and continue purge until new fluid passes through. Much easier than committing to a complete dry bleed.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Shimano oil is 10 cSt. Same as Reverb oil and Motorex Corex 10.


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## ebolamonkey (Nov 18, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Let me introduce you to two well established measurements of oil performance.
> Viscosity index & Pour Point.
> 
> Viscosity index is a measure how much an oil thins out between 40C and 100C. But it also works for higher and lower temperatures. Higher viscosity index means the oil changes viscosity less with temperature.
> ...


Shimano Hydraulic Oil MSDS (Issue Date: 4/14/2022)

Actual Link: https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/compliance/sds/HYDRAULIC MINERAL OIL-202206-ENG-CLP.pdf

From above link:

Shimano Mineral Oil Specs -
*Pour point:* -35C
*Flash point:* 157C
*Kinematic Viscosity: *8mm²/s or 8cSt at 40C
*Color: *Red


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