# DH vs current aggressive AM?



## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

In short
I'm considering what many others already have: to go for a DH bike or an aggressive AM.

With bikes like e.g. the Spec Enduro and Enduro Evo and all the similar bikes from other brands, what is the main benefit from a full-on DH bike for non-competitive riding?

Are the more aggressive AM bikes burly and smooth enough for mostly (or only) DH riding, or will only a DH bike give me that even today?

My background
I've ridden mostly a 29" Spec Stumpy Evo and a 26" Lapierre Froggy. The Stumpy has been fine and nimble in the areas where I rode it, but the local lift riding is very rough with particularly nasty roots sections but also rocks beyond what was in the area where I did my Stumpy riding. I can pretty much guess that the Stumpy isn't forgiving enough for me to ride locally, but the Lapierre DH bike felt like a freakin' train going down the hill and not as playful or easy to maneuver. I'm sure a really good rider could get down well on pretty much anything, but I would probably be better served with something that is a bit more forgiving as I get used to DH trails.

I'd love to find something in between and have thus started to look at the Spec Enduro to Enduro Evo style bikes as a possibly more DH-like bike without getting the 'train-feeling'. Still, I already have an XC bike if I want to go all-day pedalling, so I could still do all styles of riding if I would get a full DH. I just don't want to start by assuming that is the bike for me just because everyone else is riding one locally (which also makes it hard to try riding locally with an aggressive AM-rig).

I've ridden plenty of cyclocross and XC, so that nimble feeling is what I'm used to. DH is such a sweet feeling though as it's more about flowing than the micromanagement you do on a CX (on trails) and XC. However, I'd hate to get a bike that was the right feel but not ideally suited for mostly (or even only) DH.


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## pizon (Jul 7, 2009)

dedicated dh rig: less arm pump, more traction, bigger margin of error, more stable at high speed. I believe no matter how good aggro am bikes get, a true dh rig will have these benefits.
Yes big bikes can feel cumbersome when ridden at slower speeds, you gotta let it go fast


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

pizon said:


> dedicated dh rig: less arm pump, more traction, bigger margin of error, more stable at high speed. I believe no matter how good aggro am bikes get, a true dh rig will have these benefits.
> Yes big bikes can feel cumbersome when ridden at slower speeds, you gotta let it go fast


Thanks for the reply. What is the reason for this? Is it the weight itself, double crowned fork, the geo, or all of these together?

I wish I could try e.g. an Enduro Evo-like bike vs a Demo I or something. Their geo isn't far from each other (64.5 vs 63.3 ht angle, 76.8 vs 76 effective st angle, 423 vs 430 chainstay length, etc).


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## pizon (Jul 7, 2009)

not an engineer so :/
probably a combination of suspension design + geometry. 1 degree of head angle can make a hell of a difference


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## sandwich (Sep 24, 2005)

Dedicated DH bikes give you a larger margin for error. They're stronger, slacker, and more durable for run after run. I have an enduro 29er and I love it, and I liked it when I took it to highland, but a single day of downhilling puts more abuse on it than a month of trail riding. I'd prefer to have a lighter day use bike and a dedicated cheapo DH sled to just abuse the crap out of.

Riding wise, it wasn't that bad. The fox rear shock was not a huge let down, but going through real trails was unimpressive. It couldn't keep up when things got downright gnarly. Having 6" of travel doesn't allow you to go as fast through the real rough stuff as 8", but the rough stuff at highland is some of the worst there is: large, sharp rocks that do not move, at all.


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## charging_rhinos (Jul 29, 2008)

Seems like you're looking for the 'Unicorn bike.' Many seek the beast. Many say that their bike is the unicorn (they're usually stretching the truth), and few are they that actually find it.

Short Version: 
If you're on the fence between aggressive AM and DH, you probably will be happiest with an AM bike. This is especially true if you don't get season passes to DH resorts.

Long Version:
I must say, you sound pretty locked in to Specialized, and by doing that, you are limiting your options a considerable amount. Before anything else, I should admit that I am not a fan of Specialized, nor their bikes. Ethically, I find them to be bullying, corrupt a__hats that have a boring, non-innovative line of bikes with very high price tags. Ok, I've said it. Rant over. I'll try to keep my opinions based on what I've ridden and observed, and not let personal feelings creep into it.

The Demo has historically been one of the more 'dead' feeling DH bikes on the market. It goes really fast, gushes over huge stuff, and doesn't really give you much of that lively, playful factor. If a bike that gives you feedback and feels playful is very high on your list of 'must-dos,' that should eliminate the Demo almost immediately. Other DH bikes are far more playful (the Giant Glory, for example). The Demo is incredibly fast, but deadens everything. It's designed to eat up rocks and get you to the bottom as fast as possible, and that is it. And that is the problem with DH bikes: they are the most one-trick pony bikes on the market. Even CX bikes cover a wider range of terrain than them. But what they do, they do exceptionally well.

The Enduro is a lot more playful, and it's a much more capable bike when considering the wide range of terrain it feels at home on: XC to really rough AM trails. But there is no doubt that it is definitely NOT a DH bike. It doesn't ride like one, doesn't handle like one, and it doesn't hold up to abuse like one. The Evo version isn't a night-and-day difference from the regular Enduro either. They feel very similar. I personally am not much of a fan of the way they ride (the suspension either feels rubber band-like or gushy and sluggish to me), but others do like it. Matter of preference, I guess.

So can an Enduro survive rides down DH trails? Sure. Can it go down them fast? Sometimes, but that depends on the trail. On actual DH trails (read: Val di Sole, not Pietermaritzburg), no Enduro will be even close to as smooth or fast as a full DH bike. Will trying to ride it like an actual DH bike on actual DH trails be fun? Probably not. You are going to be a lot more beat-up feeling after a day of riding the Enduro over nasty terrain. Less travel and steeper angles mean much more abuse on your body, particularly the forearms. But if you spend 95% of your time out riding aggressive on steep, rocky trails, it's silly to get a DH bike. Burly AM bikes are completely at home in that realm, and can also do some xc riding, a bit of jumping, and even a tiny bit of DH type terrain every now and then. Soo much more versatile, and much more lively feeling.

--

Now if you still seek this mystical Unicorn Bike that can do both and do them well, I shall give you this advice:

[ Imagine I look like the bridge keeper in Monty Python and the Holy Grail if it helps ]

Only one bike can do what ye desire. It slayeth all the DH, and pedaleth with ease back up to the top for thy next lap. The Canfield One. 'Tis truly the unicorn that thou seekest.


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

Brilliant answers all. They all point in the same direction and I have no probs taking the hint. It's a DH bike I should go for. I can absolutely see the burlieness point. I was even thinking along these lines riding the Evo down not-so extreme (in terms of roots and rocks) but still black DH trails in Utah. 

The unicorn bile is dead to me now. I'll see if I can try the Canefield first, but otherwise: Long live the rhino!

My Spec references were just because many have experience from them. Good to hear about your thoughts on the Demo. The Giant is def among the bikes I will have an extra look at. The GT Fury is also on my 'to-try' list. Good thing now is that I can probably try a few diff models/brands now as DH bikes are dominating the local lifts.


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## pizon (Jul 7, 2009)

If u like a nimble feeling bike, give a norco aurum a try


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

pizon said:


> If u like a nimble feeling bike, give a norco aurum a try


Thanks - I'll see if I can find one to try.

Any other suggestions for a nimble-feeling DH bike?


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## Trail_Blazer (May 30, 2012)

The Spec Enduro 29 is the bike your looking for.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

you might want to try the new Canfield Balance at 27.5 ...you can pedal up hills or just point it dow

also the 27.5 Nomad is like a mini V10....for more pedal go for 27.5 Bronson ...both by Santa Cruz


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

Thanks for the suggestions. I might also try to test the new Scott Voltage FR as one of the models comes with double crowned fork. It's supposedly tons more rigid than the pre-2015 model to be more of a nimble DH bike than a pure park/slope/FR bike.


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## Trail_Blazer (May 30, 2012)

Maybe consider a Pivot Mach 6


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## meSSican (Aug 8, 2010)

I tired the do all bike with a '12 Voltage FR10. For me it was work pedaling to the top for trail rides and at the DH park was work hitting the gnarly stuff. It did work but not really what I wanted. Sold it off and went with a Jedi and am very very happy I did. I am a believer in different tool for each job.
That said I have taken my 6" El Guapo to the same park and hit the same gnarly trails as my DH bike and had a blast...although it was a bit more work. 
So I would say it boils down to how often you hit DH style trails. I am at the DH park 15-20 days per season...now if it were 5 or so trips I would opt for a 6" AM bike like the Canfield Balance (no experience with that bike but it's from guys who I know make amazing bikes).


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

Trasselkalle said:


> Thanks - I'll see if I can find one to try.
> 
> Any other suggestions for a nimble-feeling DH bike?


Tr450 or TR500 is pretty lively feeling.


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

The key to a nimble feeling DH rig is shorter chainstays to pivot around yet keeping a nice longish wheelbase. That's why the Norco Aurum is high on my list too. Right now I feel the ultimate bike for what you seek is Banshee's new Darkside - without question. If I get this job this week I'm getting one! I think the whole AM thing for DH use is a joke - there is just no substitute for the cornering accuracy of a dual crown fork vs single crown and when things go awry, you want the dual crown - trust me. I got scathed in the SC forum for suggesting to the Nomad fanboys that there is a huge gap between that bike (6.5" travel NO dual crown possible) and the V10 (9.5" travel REAL DH bike). REALLY?! To each their own... Darkside here I come.

Have FUN!

G MAN


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## Dirk77 (Mar 24, 2013)

Gman is Right, short chainstay,long reach for a playful dh bike. 

My AM bike is a banshee rune and its a blast. 
My dh bike is a kona carbon operator and it is real blast..

I've ridden everything equally on both bikes. The rune gets real rowdy and its fun. It's just different,not as forgiving, gotta be a little smoother.. That same stuff on the dh bike just puts a bigger smile on my face.. But if you have to push or climb to the top, I'd rather be able to climb. You get to see more of the trails on an enduro if you don't have lift access


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

V10 is 8.5" rear, or 10" if you're a punter  But the chainstays are as long as a run-on sentence. It wants and needs to go fast all the time

I'd like to get some time on a Nomad to compare to my V10, but unless I buy one I highly doubt that'll happen. 

Darkside is an interesting bike(and I mean that in a positive way), and when I heard about the frame it caught my eye, but when I saw the proto last summer, I knew it was still going to be a ways off.
I'd like to hear your review on it if you get one.


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

Good to hear more input, all. I've let go of the aggro AM bike already, and I can see the point that the short chainstay is a big thing to look for in a DH bike for me. With winter rolling in I'm still weighing my options in terms of which models to try and get hold of to have a feel for the geo. Living in Europe, the YT Tues 2 is a serious contender for me also, while SC bikes are just insanely expensive over here (yeah, expensive in the US also, but add a bunch and that's our price...). As this is a bike to get me going in DH and not for competitive purposes, I'm thinking as much as possible on price/performance. 

What I don't want is to buy a bike that I end up replacing quickly just because it was too much of an entry level bike. That's just wasting money. On the other hand, I obviously don't need comp level specs as a burly but playful bike is likely ideal to me.

Keep the comments going - I'm sure many more than I have similar questions.


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

Canfield Jedi has pretty short chainstays. 16 3/4 unloaded, a bit longer (1/2"?) with weight on the bike due to the axle path. I'm really happy with mine.


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

PUNKY said:


> V10 is 8.5" rear, or 10" if you're a punter  But the chainstays are as long as a run-on sentence. It wants and needs to go fast all the time


Yup, you're correct. I think I was taking the average after a couple beers last night, lol! I really do wish SC would come up with a 7-8" travel VP Free with short stays for playful DH riding. With more and more parks opening to mtbing, I think it makes sense.

Cheers,

G MAN


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## Swissam (Apr 8, 2008)

Trasselkalle said:


> Good to hear more input, all. I've let go of the aggro AM bike already, and I can see the point that the short chainstay is a big thing to look for in a DH bike for me. With winter rolling in I'm still weighing my options in terms of which models to try and get hold of to have a feel for the geo. Living in Europe, the YT Tues 2 is a serious contender for me also, while SC bikes are just insanely expensive over here (yeah, expensive in the US also, but add a bunch and that's our price...). As this is a bike to get me going in DH and not for competitive purposes, I'm thinking as much as possible on price/performance.
> 
> What I don't want is to buy a bike that I end up replacing quickly just because it was too much of an entry level bike. That's just wasting money. On the other hand, I obviously don't need comp level specs as a burly but playful bike is likely ideal to me.
> 
> Keep the comments going - I'm sure many more than I have similar questions.


The YT Tuesday is probably the best bang for your buck here in Europe. You can get a pro level for the same price as most brands entry level bikes. I have a few friends that ride them and they are all happy with them, even my friends who came off of a Demo or Gambler. I was interested in the Capra to access those high alpine trails but have decided on an Evil Uprising for my "downhillers trail bike". I'm still keeping my DH rig, it's nice to have both IMO.


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

Great to hear, Swissam. Thanks for that and I agree that the Capra and Evil Uprising look interesting for trail riding purposes. I've started considering them both for a 'next bike' (after the DH one) if I would outgrow my HT, or more likely... if my wife takes over the HT on a permanent basis. I almost never get to ride it myself anymore and my CX is pretty tricky to ride some trails on... We'll see after the DH season gets going again. One thing at the time


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## ithacking (Oct 15, 2012)

I must add that full DH rig is hella fun to ride. For me it's much more entertaining than AM rig. Just by riding DH rig it brings smile to my face and that "wow" emotions. Sadly i don't have one. 

Why are DH rigs more stable? Have you ever seen AM vs DH rig side to side in real life? DH is like twice thicker than AM:
- dual crown fork stanchions are much more separated and wider (thicker as well)
- bottom bracket and rear triangle of frame is also thick and widely separated
- real DH rig runs 40mm rims and thick a$$ tires (2.4+)
- etc..

On the other side, have you ever tried pedaling DH uphill? Really tough sh!t. 

Don't know how are your trails mate, but DH rig needs to be rode fast and hard - just like race car needs a lot of fuel. If you're riding it like a grandma (or your trail cannot be ridden fast) then you'd be better off with AM bike. And it's stupid to have like 50% of excess travel if you never use it. It is true that DH rig feels like a train when riding at slow speeds downhill, they are heavy. You need to let off your brakes and use momentum to control the bike which is practiced and hard.


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

40 mm rims is a bit of a push to say that real DH rigs run. Ive only recently seen some companies pushing 30-33 mm or so. Even the top Demo 8 runs 24 mm wide rims only.


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## Pau11y (Oct 15, 2004)

NWS said:


> Canfield Jedi has pretty short chainstays. 16 3/4 unloaded, a bit longer (1/2"?) with weight on the bike due to the axle path. I'm really happy with mine.


I'll 2nd this, especially if you find a '14 MY...one w/ the 26" wheels. Got rid of mine to get the '15 to fit the bigger hoops for a pretty good deal w/ a DVO Emerald, but a bit more than what you're willing to spend.


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## ThomasF (Oct 4, 2013)

deeper and longer travel will cause DH rigs to feel slower and not as snappy, you can jack up rebound and all but usually you let a DH rig sag more so it can eat up bumps better, also super slack geo gives it stability but increases turning radius and makes it feel less nimble. if you'll be riding lifts get a full DH bike. 

I got a Slash 7 which is a gnarly bike with the whole full floater suspension and with a piggy back and everything, but i'm still considering getting a Demo 8 just for the summers when the bike parks open up. there is a reason why people buy DH rigs, because the suppleness in 8" of travel on a fork and the 8-10" rear allows you to spend more time at the bike park, not get as tired from all the big hits, and as Pizon said, more room for error, 6" of travel is pretty forgiving, but at 40 mph you want all the forgiveness you can get don't you?


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## ThomasF (Oct 4, 2013)

**** dude, i forgot the Mach 6 and the Firebird, those guys are both gnarly, you can pedal a firebird up almost anything... slowly, but you'll get up it.

the real question is what will you be spending time on.

50/50 trail and bike park is hard, if you'll be spending the weekends at the bike park and the week days (i mean everyday) on the trails then get a AM bike... even at 50 50 you might consider something like the firebird or a burly AM ride. also would you mind walking your bike to the top? if not, maybe get a DH rig.

Will you be shuttling? aka driving to the top, riding to the bottom then having one of your buds have a truck parked down there where you all drive back up to the top again then repeat. 

the main thing is that using a 6" bike for bike park harshness might wear the bike down faster than trail riding. really consider what you want from it. 


if you really are just going to use your SJ for the trails and you're looking for something for the bike park a Canfield Jedi is my dream, but i'll probably settle with a Demo 8 II because they're the only real DH bike available through my LBS thats cheap-ish. 

AM is real just for trail riding, but the Canfield bros really know what they're doing, charging rhinos is right that **** is the dream, just a little out of my budget range.


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

One of the main motivating factors for my OP was that the DH bike that I had been riding some felt like a train and lacked the nimble feel of a lighter bike with less travel. Coming from other forms of biking, I've always liked that nimbleness. It's also of course a point of 'fun-factor' for me as that's what I'm used to playing around with in my other riding. 

In my case for DH purposes, the bike was always intended for lift-based riding first and foremost as I have an XC HT that I can ride trails with (not very extreme trail terrain here - more technical but not free-ridish in any way). With my OP, I essentially wanted to make sure that I didn't overkill by getting a DH bike and that a heavy-duty AM bike would have been enough. If a heavy-duty AM bike would have been enough, it could have doubled as an additional trail bike if someone else wanted to borrow my XC, like my wife or a friend, but that was more of a bonus than any form of actual need. My actual need is for lift-based riding as that offers a completely different riding experience than any other bike riding has for me, and is much closer to the extreme skiing experience that I come from but no longer do enough of to meet my adrenaline needs. 

As the DH trails here are tons of roots and rocks (rather than the smooth almost-fire-road like trails that sometimes can be seen), I have no doubt the need for a burly enough bike to take the punishment. There has been so much writing and talking about mini-DH bikes and such for bikes like the Spec Enduro Evo (and similar from other brands) that I wanted to double check what ppl that don't have sponsor contracts to replace all parts and their own mechanics to take case of things felt. The additional forgiveness and less tiresome ride are both secondary to simply being able to take the punishment in my case. With forgiveness comes additional need for speed to get that adrenaline going and my thinking there was that I wasn't going to compete anyways so it doesn't really matter at what speed I rode in. But hey, since I need the burliness of a DH bike I'm getting the forgiveness as an effect, which means that it's at least a good thing that it's less tiresome to ride as tired and fast is a recepie for bad calls and injuries.

I want to really thank all of you for pitching in. Over the posts, several nuances that I hadn't really considered when my first post went out have really hit home for me. Even the AM-tips have gotten me to start looking for more extreme trail riding opportunities, and I wouldn't be surprised... correction: I would be suprised if it didn't turn out that my next bike after the DH one will be something in the Enduro Evo class if I can find more extreme trail or free riding.

As I've said before - please continue to chip in as others are sure to have similar thoughts as I started with. I am super happy and definitely decided on bike type for my needs though, so I will leave the thread open for anyone else to take in the direction they want 

Cheers.


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## pizon (Jul 7, 2009)

Look into banshee darkside - honestly this might be my next big bike. Its billed as nimble dh /poppy rig that comes with a dbair cs switch shock and can handle double crowns.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

I have a Trek Remedy with a Works headset (66.5 HA), a Bomber 55 and Hans Dampf tires. Also have a Knolly Podium. 

As it sits, its 30 pounds. I don't think I'd want anything stouter for trails ride. 

That said, personally, I think I'm better off with two separate bikes for DH and trail riding.


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## ThomasF (Oct 4, 2013)

look into a Devinci Wilson, Demo's are supposed to be playful if you tune them right, but they beg for speed, so only at speed do they become playful. idk about Sessions, i know my Slash is only slightly playful but it can munch through the gnarliest rock sections. never ridden anything giant related, Canfield Jedi's are god, and the Knolly Podium looks good, or a Norco Aurum which is very cheep, very well spec'ed and VERY playful. oooor you can wait for YT industries to start shipping to the U.S. and get one of those if you're in the U.S.

but yeah, if you're going to be doing strictly lifts in NO QUESTIONS ASKED going to be a DH bike. Even the rowdiest enduro/AM bike will get munched to bits with extended park use. 

OH!! if you REALLY like playful then consider the TREK SESSION PARK. they're purpose built for park riding, they have 180/180mm travel with a suspension curve that causes more pop on lips and will be more fun on the trail, they're 26" still and i can say for a fact the full floater design is great for clearing obstacles.


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

Hehe - great answer, ThomasF. I'll make you envious and say that I'm in Europe so the YT bikes are already available to me! I'm not fully decided yet though, but the price/performance ratio is insane on them.


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## Trail_Blazer (May 30, 2012)

Friend loves her Davinci. Gorgeous too.


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## Trail_Blazer (May 30, 2012)




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## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

Coming late to this. What part of Europe? What DH parks will you be riding the most? Most of the tech trails you will be riding would have started as hiking trails so bikes that handle well in tight should be your first concern. Most of the DH parks are pretty rocky, rooty technical so for those you'll probably want something full on. A bit more context will help


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

Good question, LeeL. I'm in the South of Sweden. 

Locally around here it's indeed root-haven/nightmare + a fair bit of rocks. It's not really hiking trails around here but it's pretty much the same as what you are talking about as they are all hand built by enthusiasts, meaning not many smooth and tall berms. 

Travelling outside my local area, I'd say Åre and Järvsö (both still in Sweden) are the likely other parts that I would go to. I can't say about possibly going to the Alps or so (and where that would be then) at this point. Norway is too expensive to go to, and it's nice to combine travelling somewhere with visiting ppl I know in those areas.


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## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

well the Swedes I know tend to go to Austria, Switzerland etc so the DH bikes they need are full on because the trails there are so bombed out and therefore full on. i don't know your trails at all so nothing can be said here other than to get something with good local support. Many of the brands people are talking about here are very US centric which is basically useless for you but then this is a very US Centric site. Basically you can't go too wrong with your YT


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

It's likely that the Alps will be in the cards for me sooner rather than later, but I'll have to wait and see where the ppl I get to know more as I ride more like to go. I also spend some time in the US on and off, as well as in South Africa, and expect to bring my bike with me for that. I've noted the differences in trails here in Sweden vs where I've ridden in the US and SA, so it's good to know that the Alps are likely more similar to Sweden (by your description as well as videos I've seen and the ppl I've spoken with locally about this). (Note to all non-EU readers: there is absolutely nothing better/worse with the differences in trails and terrain - it's all good fun in different ways and as generalizations go it is also not applicable in all cases.)

If I'd buy today, I would go for a YT, and certainly reinforced by your comment on the bike as suitable for European-style trails/terrain. It's really which model that is my main question at this point, but I suppose things could change as I don't have to make the call today. In terms of the models they have, there isn't much of a difference in price between them, and the top models appear highly justifiable in terms of the added cost of those components compared with the models below. It would definitely be 'overkill' with their Pro model vs. my ability at the moment if I go for that one. As I think I said earlier, though, I hate buying stuff that I end up replacing after a while anyways. The Zocci durability of old and minimal maintenance needed is attractive strictly for that reason though. It's not like it's the last few hundred euro that make the bike expensive. It's the first X thousand that makes up the bulk of the cost.


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## Trail_Blazer (May 30, 2012)

Whats a YT?
Why is it better for europe?


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

YT is short for YT Industries and it is the Tues 2.0 series that is implied. 

Nobody meant to say that it was better for Europe, only that it is a suitable bike for European trails that look a bit different than many US trails as most of them started as hiking trails rather than being purpose-built to serve as DH trails.


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## ThomasF (Oct 4, 2013)

trailblazer, watch rampage bruh. then you'll learn what YT industries is all about. German's going hard.


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## jimw (Aug 10, 2004)

Since the OP asked mentioned the Enduro Evo... I've been riding a 2013 Enduro Expert Evo for the past year and half, and I love it. That bike frickin' rips. Everything. I replaced my old Enduro and Demo with that bike, and it's better than either of them at the up and the down IMO. In any case I have way more fun on it. I posted a bunch more info on how I set mine up on another thread, so rather than retype it all here, here ya go:

Enduro Evo Feedback? | Ridemonkey.com

I will say a couple things. I made some changes that make it so I can easily optimize it for AM trail days or DH park days... main ones being have two separate wheel sets, and having a custom LSC adjuster lever on the CCDB for climbing. Details in that thread.

If you're only going to ride DH parks with this bike, then maybe you'd have more fun with a dedicated DH bike... but if you're going to ride the bike anywhere else in addition, you can't go wrong with the Evo. You also mentioned "playfulness", and this bike has you covered in that department.

Also, I dunno where some of the other posters got their info, but to me this bike definitely feels different from a standard Enduro, and it can definitely take a beating. I know, I've tried


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

Great post, jimw - thanks for chiming in. You're not making this easier 

I know roughly where you are coming from, as I think the difference between the Stumpy and Stumpy Evo is also significant. I can certainly imagine the difference being as big, but one step closer to what is suitable for at least flowy DH (read: not only roots and rocks) on an Enduro Evo. That is exactly why I posted that as example in the OP. In Utah, where I got my beak wet for this type of riding, that would have been ideal. Unfortunately, that is not where I live.

Awesome pics and feedback in the other thread. Oh how I wish I could find that type of riding locally here in the South of Sweden, but each place has its own benefits so I'm not really complaining. I hope you appreciate where you live to the fullest! Living in an area like that would have made the call between going for DH riding or aggressive AM riding so much harder than it already is. The hills close to where I live are all short and nothing special, which makes much of the pedalling flat or semi-flat with very limited (as far as I have found) natural 'fun stuff' downhill sections. If I want better trails, or just ride wherever under beech and oak trees, I have to go to where the lift-based riding is anyways. I'm thus somewhat torn if I would in practice still go there and ride trails over the lift? Only I can answer that, but I suspect that lift-based would win out just from the pure fun-factor that riding more down a hill gives over riding up it. Your point about two wheel sets and swapping depending on ride type is interesting and carries the added bonus (beyond what you say) of having a spare set if one would die during DH park riding...

I know you feel the Öhlin shock and the newer model isn't likely what you prefer for pedalling, but as far as I understand it would be better for a more DH oriented use, as is my case. If (note to all else in this thread: IF) I were to consider the Evo and thus use it as an AM bike also (even if you enjoy your Evo over your old Demo for DH, I don't see the point in getting an Evo if I didn't use it for AM riding), I would mostly pedal alone (no rush) and would view the extra effort as healthy workout. My current bike I ride XC on is just a bike to get me from point A to point B (an entry level Kona HT - mostly bought so I would dare to lock it and leave it while grabbing coffee or so in town), but I have still enjoyed that even though it isn't really a serious trail riding bike. It has a weak spec, decent geo, but a horrible fork for downhill or quick turns and weighs as about an Evo. 

Actually - if (again: IF) I were to consider an Evo after all, I might be torn between the price/performance level of the regular Evo and the expert (twice the money), but the expert does come with a Boxxer Team double-crown fork on top of the Öhlin shock, so one could make a serious argument for it being DH-ready... The question kind of beckons though, if it even still is an AM bike at all? The geo is closer to DH geo than what other AM bikes use as well. 

I'll have to seriously consider what I want to do, before I pull the trigger on another bike. I can confess that going for a full DH bike isn't what I was expecting I would do a year or so ago - before I tried that type of riding... There is a level of worry about 'but am I really a DH rider all of a sudden' just because it hasn't really sunk in and had such a huge impact on me, after such a short time. I get none of the same 'extreme sports' adrenaline rush from any other bike riding though, so I can't really go back. Well, I could go back to extreme skiing I suppose, but that season is during the worst work period and thus not realistic to pursue more than occasionally at best. It's also nice to have something new to work on. I've noticed that I can't even go out with my CX bike without pushing harder than I ever have down trails (that really are more XC than CX for that matter) and gravel/dirt roads, so I think the beast is awoken and needs a new ride. The chicken in me says a really aggressive AM bike opens up more types of riding, but even if I am fairly light at 160-165 lbs (possibly making 180 mm less of an issue) - will it ever really be burly enough to stand things if I end up mostly (or even only) use it in park DH riding? I suspect it would be smooth enough given the shock/fork combo and geo, but the weight is lost somewhere on the Evo vs a full-DH bike. And as I started out saying... the AM riding that I've found so far is mostly smaller hills and flat to semi-flat in between unless I would session up and down a few specific places all the time (which can get a bit repetitive), so XC is really what dominates the MTB scene here.

As I think I posted earlier - I'm no stranger to grabbing an AM bike in the future if I can find AM riding relatively local to me that is better than what I've seen thus far. I should add that biking is far from my only form of exercise I do. If I were to go full-DH (as I was set to do), I would still do my other training as well as CX bike riding in particular during weekdays. I wouldn't feel any pressure of doing more training in weekdays if DH became my weekend thing, despite AM riding having the potential to also serve as fitness training.


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

Trasselkalle said:


> Great post, jimw - thanks for chiming in. You're not making this easier
> 
> I know roughly where you are coming from, as I think the difference between the Stumpy and Stumpy Evo is also significant. I can certainly imagine the difference being as big, but one step closer to what is suitable for at least flowy DH (read: not only roots and rocks) on an Enduro Evo. That is exactly why I posted that as example in the OP. In Utah, where I got my beak wet for this type of riding, that would have been ideal. Unfortunately, that is not where I live.


Big difference between an Enduro EVO and a Stumpy Evo.

I would suggest a big AM bike. Think Megatrail, WFO, Enduro, Canfield Balance or a CAPRA!










Capra CF Pro-20142000


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## ThomasF (Oct 4, 2013)

guys he said he was going to park rat it, he lives in europe, and will be riding in europe on european downhill trails which are fast and flowy and full blown DH park trails.

If you're using this bike strictly for DH then get a full mountain bike, idk why anyone would get new enduro evo's, they live in a grey zone of 180mm travel so they can't pedal or be pushed as hard as 203mm, the only real plus size to something like the Enduro Evo or a Session Park is that it will be snappier and more playful than a 203mm but still have more cushion than a 160mm, they are also both dual crown and with coil shocks, so they're much more suited for DH park riding than most 160mm bikes. if i were you i'd get a full 203mm unless you want to focus on jumping, in which case you should get a Session park or maaaybe an Enduro Evo.


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

Then buy YT's DH bike and the cheap Capra will cost him 5,000 combined....have two bikes.


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

I absolutely believe there is a big difference between the Stumpy Evo and the Enduro Evo, ianjenn. That was the whole point I was trying to make and I didn't mean anything else if that was unclear.

At this point of my thinking - while sitting around waiting for for instance YT to start their sales on the 2014 models - it's really only the 'am I all of a sudden a DH rider' part that I'm still somewhat shocked at asking myself. I didn't imagine riding DH would have such an impact on me and thought it would be cool to try and that would be it. I was a cyclocross wierdo, after all, riding XC trails that I had scouted on my XC HT as 'safe enough' to bomb on dropper bars and narrow tires. This is also why something that is a bit more AM can feel 'safer' to buy, as that is closer to what I could have imagined before I actually tried full-blown DH. I don't think AM riding - even in much better conditions than I have found here (and note that lack of such trails is a problem in itself) - would quite give me that same feeling.

The wise money is probably still to get that full-DH YT bike for the insane price/performance it is. During that time, I can continue to ride my XC HT to scout new terrain and trails. If this means finding something that can justify getting an aggro AM, I can pull that trigger then. 

I can add, as ThomasF touches on this, that jumping isn't really a thing for me. It's a natural aspect that comes with speed (just as it always was on skis), but it's not what I get my kick from.


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## ThomasF (Oct 4, 2013)

well if you like speed, get a fast bike, i'm sure Demo 8's are available EVERYWHERE, they're known for their speed, idk if Trek or Giant or any other companies are available, but if you want speed and you want to go to bike parks, and you don't want to huck it, then get a full 8" or 203mm travel bike and enjoy lazing through the rooty section.

yeah it won't be ANYTHING like your HT or any other XC bike you own, but you won't start off on double black diamonds, spend some time on some flat surfaces on your new bike getting used to the geometry after you buy one, then go hit the green lines and then blue and work your way up to more advance trails.

Also, go back to the bike parks, try out what they have to rent, but also, go to your favorite bike parks, and see what people have, ask people who work their what they ride, see what are the favorite bikes for the trails of that park and maybe factor that into your decision. Bikes like a Spesh Demo 8 a Trek Session and Santa Cruz V10 (SC v10 is suuuper expensive) are meant more for speed over obstacles and UCI WC racing style, but they're also super confidence boosters, so when you take it out to the bike park you'll feel mroe comfortable and willing on those bikes. 

Goodluck deciding, there are a lot of great options out there. but if you want to do Bike parks, get a full 203mm. 

and don't get an AM bike unless you'll really be riding all mountain. thats my advice. only get the travel you need, and at a bike park you should get all the 203mm travel to feel comfortable and avoid arm pump, and if your trails back home are mostly little XC hill trails, why get an AM, get the downhill adrenaline rush from the bike parks and enjoy the XC at home.


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

Cheers, ThomasF. Your last paragraph is pretty much spot on. 

I've been renting this season in different locations around the world - including locally - so I've got a decent grip on what kind of geo and feel I like. I can get hold of essentially any brand/model in this age of internet. Local bikes are all over in brands and models. 

I've been asking around but it's not like anything really stands out as 'the type' to ride. Ppl prioritize differently, I suppose. I haven't seen anything but full-DH bikes going down (some XC riders ride up the lift, but that's a different story), so that says something probably. My bias towards YT is due to the price point they are at and the extremely strong specs they have, plus ofc the great experiences ppl have of them over here.


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## ThomasF (Oct 4, 2013)

yeah YT sounds awesome, and they're very cheap, when they start shipping to america i might get one rather than a Demo 8


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm just hoping to pick one up before they start shipping to the US! The line of buyers would become insane at that point and waiting has never been fun. Even kids at X-mas knows that...


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## ThomasF (Oct 4, 2013)

which YT bike are you intending to get?


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

ThomasF said:


> yeah YT sounds awesome, and they're very cheap, when they start shipping to america i might get one rather than a Demo 8


They are looking at coming Stateside this year!!!


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## ThomasF (Oct 4, 2013)

ianjenn said:


> They are looking at coming Stateside this year!!!


Epic, i can't wait, its either a YT Tues 2.0 or a Norco Aurum.


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## Trasselkalle (Sep 5, 2014)

ThomasF said:


> which YT bike are you intending to get?


In terms of actual need, the Tues 2.0 in the basic model would be enough.

I'm leaning towards the Comp or Pro though, as the difference isn't that much in price. The first couple of k are what's expensive, not the last few hundred, and looking at the spec value it's probably even greater on the Pro than on any other model. The hopes of the Zocci fork and shock being as low on maintenance as their old stuff also adds to the 'want factor' of the pro.

But again... I don't really need more than the basic model at this point. There's still a bit of time before they start selling at a discount, so we'll see what sizes and models are still around then.


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