# Nutrition for training and weight loss?



## azmtbkr81 (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi, I'm a 36 year old guy, just a hair under 6' tall and my weight has steadily crept up to 215 lbs. I have the dual goal of losing 25 lbs and also training for longer endurance/marathon races this summer. 

Over the last few weeks I've started tracking my food intake and have been limiting my calories to about 2000 per day. I'm not a fan of crazy, restrictive diets, so I've been making an effort to clean up my eating habits by sticking to healthy, balanced meals with almost no processed foods or sugar. I've also drastically cut my beer/alcohol intake.

I have plenty of energy to get through the day, but I feel gassed quickly on longer or more intense training rides. I'm not hitting the wall, but I definitely feel weaker and it also seems to take longer to recover.

Are there any tweaks I can make to my nutrition strategy to continue training hard and still lose weight or is this something I have to push through to give my body time to adjust?


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Me too... Well, I was 208 and have dropped 10 lbs by limiting caloric intake, carbs and processed foods as well as not eating after dinner. I think the last point is key, especially if you normally have a late evening or midnight snack. I'm not always successful but I have limited it to a large degree. 

I have noticed less consistency on rides since cutting cals and doing an evening fast, and I do think you need to adapt by eating more before and during rides. On rides I'd look at 150 cal/hr or so of sugars, I use Skratch drink mix + Kirkland organic fruit snacks. One 21 oz bottle of drink mix + 1 pkg of fruit snack per hr does help and makes me feel less hungry after rides so I'm less likely to overcompensate. 

Before the ride probably depends more on genetics, but I do best with some amount of fats and proteins others might not. I've been working on a pre-ride or workout shake consisting of a dose of Vega One, a banana, a cup of Califa cold-brew coffee in almond milk, a couple tbsp cacao powder, and a spoonful of pb and honey. As I said this might not sit well with some, as there's "too much" fat and protein, but for me it's been great for consistency. I'm also a bigger guy and at 6' 197 I don't have a ton more weight I can lose without losing muscle but for me, I think 190 is a reasonable goal.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Sounds like maybe you just need more calories during your ride.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

jacksonlui said:


> Sounds like maybe you just need more calories during your ride.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


This. If you're only eating 2,000 calories a day, you're going to have a very hard time putting in hard miles on the bike.

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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

There are a lot of variables that can be factored into the OPs question.

Individual variability is a big one.

The majority of responses I see when these sort of "what should I eat?" question come up focus on some sort of special mix of eating this or that.


When I ride with others, the guys I see _not_ petering out are the lean guys with low body fat.

When I ride by myself, I do best with less in my belly. Unless the ride is over 3 hours I typically take in no calories during the ride, while others are munching then getting sleepy. Generally I eat breakfast and supper only and can go all day with nothing else, but it took some time for my body to get there, and now I feel better.

Most riders I'm seeing are carting around a very large amount of stored calories.

The amount of stored energy we keep on hand, even with an empty belly, is a lot.

Add to that, most riders could go a lot longer and faster if they dropped 10 to 15 pounds of dead weight from their chassis.


Take 2 average riders and over a 6 month period have one focus on "fueling up" pre and post ride, and one who overall ate a lot less, and trained their body to use pre-existing stores. I'd wager at the end the one who focused on eating less would be faster. He'd weigh less, and would allow his body to re-learn what millions of years of mammalian physiology has programmed into us. This presumes the "average rider" is hauling around at least 10 pounds of dead weight.


I see guys, several pounds overweight, talking about what to eat, while consistently getting smoked on rides by lean guys who are taking in a lot less calories overall.


We have a pandemic of excessive caloric intake, even among relatively intense weekend warriors.

I'd also wager that if most posters on this site simply ate less they end up being far faster.


I'd say not "bonking" has more to do with training more, rather than eating more.


These thoughts of mine may not be correct, or best for everyone. They are meant to present theories that fall on the other side of the "advice spectrum" so that we might keep an open mind.


Good luck OP, and let us know how it works out.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Everybody is different. I am 6', 192 lbs. Long, lanky and lean. I try to consume 3500 calories a day. I also try to eat at least 2 eggs or drink a protein shake before bed (with at least some portion being casein or a slower digesting protein). If I don't eat often daily, including a nice bedtime snack, I feel weak on my bike. I have been down to 180 in recent times and while I could climb for a while like a billy goat, overall I am MUCH stronger at 190. Especially for longer rides. 

It has taken me a while to figure out what works. So far, this works for me. For some of my friends, they would be larger than a VW bug if they ate like I do, and there is no doubt they would suffer on the trail.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Miker J said:


> There are a lot of variables that can be factored into the OPs question.
> 
> Individual variability is a big one.
> 
> ...


I agree with much of what you're saying... but we can't change genetics and some folks are never going to be skinny people. Skinny people don't peter out because lower weight means doing less work, less exertion and it's easier for them to maintain moderate heart rates and clear obstacles without overexertion.

As far as using preexisting stores imo it's important to train your body to switch power sources smoothly, but for maximum performance I'm not sure it's ideal, and it can leave you hungry after a ride and more likely to overeat.

With your 2 avg riders example I'm absolutely sure I'm faster learning how to best fuel myself before and during rides. I do know some top athletes and they eat before and during rides. If you're doing some sort of keto type diet than you need a different plan I guess. But for everyone else I'm quite sure fueling during rides over an hour or two is a really good idea.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Everybody is different. I am 6', 192 lbs. Long, lanky and lean. I try to consume 3500 calories a day. I also try to eat at least 2 eggs or drink a protein shake before bed (with at least some portion being casein or a slower digesting protein). If I don't eat often daily, including a nice bedtime snack, I feel weak on my bike. I have been down to 180 in recent times and while I could climb for a while like a billy goat, overall I am MUCH stronger at 190. Especially for longer rides.
> 
> It has taken me a while to figure out what works. So far, this works for me. For some of my friends, they would be larger than a VW bug if they ate like I do, and there is no doubt they would suffer on the trail.


I'd be obese for sure. Reminds me of my friend who is ~5'3" and 100 lbs, she has to eat more often than she wants to maintain that weight.

Before I was ~32 it didn't matter what I ate, then I had to adjust after gaining a little weight. Now at 43 I have to adjust further. It sucks, but what can you do...


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## azmtbkr81 (Oct 10, 2005)

Thanks for the advice everyone, especially davec113, sounds like you have your pre-ride nutrition pretty dialed! This week I'm going to try fueling up a bit more prior to riding and see how that goes, maybe start a log of what I'm eating prior to the ride and how I'm feeling during/after the ride.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I am 53, weigh 181-182, and am rather muscular and lean, certainly more than most riders. I have used the app LoseIt (similar to MyFitnessPal, but better, IMO) for four years to track and manage my calories, and I swear by it. I had recently crept up to 190-ish, and set a calorie limit to lose 1/2 pound per week, to get down to 185 and lean out a bit. I lost it in a couple weeks, and am now adding calories to get back to 185. Again, I swear by it and track my calories meticulously.

I also did Dry January, cutting out alcohol for the first time in my adult life, and have stayed dry because I feel so good. I mean, sleep, soreness, energy are all better than ever, and the only difference is no alcohol. I’ll be back at some point, but I don’t miss it, and I feel it has made a huge difference in trimming down and leaning out.

I am an endurance XC SS’er, and do 12/24-hour solo races, and long loop/P2P events. So I ride a lot. I also lift hard in then gym 3x per week, as maintaining my physique and muscle mass is important to me. As you can imagine, at 53, and with the amount of cardio I do, along with trying to trim down a bit, I have to work to maintain muscle. I also try to run every so often; sometimes 1x per week, sometime a bit less.

To net it all out, for me, it is ALL about counting calories, and generally being thoughtful about the macros and makeup of those calories, along with consistent, and relatively hard, exercise. Yes, you need to make sure you get enough calories and proper nutrition in order to train and compete effectively, but in the end, it’s a math exercise. If you’re not taking in less than you burn, on a net basis, you won’t lose any weight. Period.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I’ll add, on rides of up to 2-3 hours, you don’t need to eat anything beforehand. You’ll do just fine on stored energy (glycogen), and you’ll more effectively “burn fat”. As rides get longer than that, you start to add in snacks. I always feel best, on the bike, running or at the gym, when I feel somewhat hungry, and am on a relatively empty stomach.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

waltaz said:


> I'll add, on rides of up to 2-3 hours, you don't need to eat anything beforehand. You'll do just fine on stored energy (glycogen), and you'll more effectively "burn fat". As rides get longer than that, you start to add in snacks. I always feel best, on the bike, running or at the gym, when I feel somewhat hungry, and am on a relatively empty stomach.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Less is better, with calories, is my slant.

Azbiker, I'd agree with you for high end athletes at peak performance. But for most of us, getting lean by eating less, will get us faster, faster.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Miker J said:


> But for most of us, getting lean by eating less, will get us faster, faster.


^^This

I weighed 189.6 on Jan. 1, and 178.8 this morning. At the same strength (basically), that's like taking 10 pounds off my bike.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

jacksonlui said:


> Sounds like maybe you just need more calories during your ride.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


This again...

Do a search with key words 'weight management loss cycling' and you'll find some good information out there to help you out. Stick with cycling specific sources, such as Active, FastCat Coaching, Cycling Weekly, etc.


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## felix1776 (Nov 14, 2016)

waltaz said:


> I'll add, on rides of up to 2-3 hours, you don't need to eat anything beforehand. You'll do just fine on stored energy (glycogen), and you'll more effectively "burn fat". As rides get longer than that, you start to add in snacks. I always feel best, on the bike, running or at the gym, when I feel somewhat hungry, and am on a relatively empty stomach.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I was reading this thread this morning before my ride so I decided to try out your advice on the whole riding on an empty stomach thing. I gotta say things went damn well. I did 12 miles with 1800 ft of climbing which for me is a moderately difficult ride. The first 15-20 minutes, which coincides with a long climb right from the parking lot, was resulting in some stomach cramps. I powered through and had no issues after that. I did have my cheat meal for the week last night which included some pizza and bread sticks so I guess I was carbed up. I'm normally pretty low carb.

The timing of your post was really good. I was seriously considering starting this week to do my weight workouts in the mornings before work and then get a ride in after work. I just wasn't sure how I was going to eat before going to the gym. I guess I'll try lifting fasted. That might be tough during heavy squats and deadlifts though. Any advice?


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

felix1776 said:


> I was reading this thread this morning before my ride so I decided to try out your advice on the whole riding on an empty stomach thing. I gotta say things went damn well. I did 12 miles with 1800 ft of climbing which for me is a moderately difficult ride. The first 15-20 minutes, which coincides with a long climb right from the parking lot, was resulting in some stomach cramps. I powered through and had no issues after that. I did have my cheat meal for the week last night which included some pizza and bread sticks so I guess I was carbed up. I'm normally pretty low carb.
> 
> The timing of your post was really good. I was seriously considering starting this week to do my weight workouts in the mornings before work and then get a ride in after work. I just wasn't sure how I was going to eat before going to the gym. I guess I'll try lifting fasted. That might be tough during heavy squats and deadlifts though. Any advice?


For a ride that short, even with the hard climbing, you really don't need anything. Your stored glycogen was more than enough.

For lifting, you definitely don't need anything before the gym...it wouldn't even impact the lifting workout. Fasting will be just fine. I'll bet you feel great.

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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

felix1776 said:


> I was reading this thread this morning before my ride so I decided to try out your advice on the whole riding on an empty stomach thing. I gotta say things went damn well. I did 12 miles with 1800 ft of climbing which for me is a moderately difficult ride. The first 15-20 minutes, which coincides with a long climb right from the parking lot, was resulting in some stomach cramps. I powered through and had no issues after that. I did have my cheat meal for the week last night which included some pizza and bread sticks so I guess I was carbed up. I'm normally pretty low carb.
> 
> The timing of your post was really good. I was seriously considering starting this week to do my weight workouts in the mornings before work and then get a ride in after work. I just wasn't sure how I was going to eat before going to the gym. I guess I'll try lifting fasted. That might be tough during heavy squats and deadlifts though. Any advice?


Anecdotally of course....

Depends how much lifting you do and how dialed your lifting regime is.

Something that has left me keep lifting during riding season, and not need a lot of extra calories is backing off on the reps.

During the riding season I do something like a modified "strong lifts 5x5" but after warm up I won't do a full 5 sets. Rather 3 sets with 5 reps of each exercise.

Works on a lower calorie diet. Does not totally fatigue the muscles so riding the same day or next day is possible, and most importantly, it still keeps me strong.

I had grown up in the day when weight training was all about pushing every set until exhaustion, then doing "negatives". After a day like that I couldn't walk a flight of stairs let alone ride a mt bike. I then learned you don't have to overly fatigue the muscle with weights to make it get stronger.


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## felix1776 (Nov 14, 2016)

Miker J said:


> Anecdotally of course....
> 
> Depends how much lifting you do and how dialed your lifting regime is.
> 
> ...


I've been lifting about 4 days a week here recently. Chest/Tris, Legs, Shoulders, Back/Bis. I tend to do more bro-style, bodybuilding workouts for my upper body which includes 3-4 sets of 3-5 rep deadlifts on back day for strength. On legs day, I only do about 3 set of 3-5 reps on squats and then maybe 3 set of 10-20 lunges (fairly easy). With all the biking, I know I don't need any extra volume for legs. I just do the heavy squats to maintain my strength. I've been in a cutting phase for quite a while. I'm sitting at 217 down from about 260 with a goal weight of some where between 185 and 195 (6'1"). I love biking but I want to maintain as much strength as I can without losing all of my muscle mass.

I've never been one for early morning lifting but now that the weather is getting nicer, I still want to maximize my time on the bike. I think weights in the AM and riding in the PM is the way to go. I'll just have to get my nutrition dialed in to make it work.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I am maniacal about my lifting regimen, and work hard to keep my muscle mass and definition, with all the riding I do.

I do Push 2x per week (chest/shoulders/tri’s) and Pull 1x per week (Back/Bi’s). I’m not doing legs right now, with all the riding I do, but will be picking up one day per week.

For Push, I generally do 3 exercises per muscle group, going 4x4-5, then 3x8, then 3x10-12 (super-setted). For Pull, I generally do about 5-6 exercises for my back, doing 3x10’s, and 3 exercises for my bi’s, doing 3x10 for a main set, then superset a couple others at 3x10. This all works really well for me. I also time myself in between sets, with a minute rest. Gets me in and out in 65-75 minutes, and keeps the muscles pumped.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Re diet... An interesting article about diet and weight loss



> *Low-Carb Vs Low-Fat Diets: The Final Answer*
> If you want to lose weight, is it better to cut out bread, pasta, and fruit? Or should you toss the avocadoes, nuts, and cheese? Results from a year-long study of more than 600 people has a surprising answer!
> 
> When weight loss is the goal, is low-fat or low-carb better? This is a question that's had dieters scratching their heads for years, and which has plenty of die-hard believers on both sides. But, it turns out that the differences may not matter that much after all.
> ...


sauce https://www.bodybuilding.com/conten...ts-the-final-answer.html?mcid=SM_FB_Nutrition


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

davec113 said:


> With your 2 avg riders example I'm absolutely sure I'm faster learning how to best fuel myself before and during rides. I do know some top athletes and they eat before and during rides. If you're doing some sort of keto type diet than you need a different plan I guess. But for everyone else I'm quite sure fueling during rides over an hour or two is a really good idea.


I agree with you. I think people who ride in fasted states or try to get into "fat burning mode" during long rides for the sake of losing weight are self sabotaging in the long run because their metabolism will also downgrade. Signal to your body that it is starving or food is in short supply and it will respond accordingly. After the metabolism craters, then you have to double down and the cycle repeats.

The best way to lose weight over the long term is to signal to your body that it is living in an environment of abundance. Lots of sleep, reduce stress, eat when hungry (but don't overeat or eat junk food). And take recovery foods and drinks after the ride.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Grain of salt since we are all different, but your body is also going to have to adapt to the longer rides. I can comfortably ride for 5 hours or more without eating (obviously I'm hungry, but energy isn't a factor). But my body has adapted over the years to long hard miles, originally from running. I started at 200 pounds, 5'8". I'm substantially smaller now.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Sidewalk said:


> Grain of salt since we are all different, but your body is also going to have to adapt to the longer rides. I can comfortably ride for 5 hours or more without eating (obviously I'm hungry, but energy isn't a factor). But my body has adapted over the years to long hard miles, originally from running. I started at 200 pounds, 5'8". I'm substantially smaller now.


True, but judging from your posts in the XC forum, you are a cat 1 guy who is pretty serious about training. In other words, you are an athlete through and through. You are not doing 5 hour rides to lose weight, you are doing it for performance.

But most people aren't that way. They resort to gimmicky ways of cutting calories or trying to trick their body into losing weight, performance be damned. That's the mindset of a chronic dieter bordering on a eating disorder, not an athlete. And it rarely works for the majority who try it.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

midwestmtb said:


> True, but judging from your posts in the XC forum, you are a cat 1 guy who is pretty serious about training. In other words, you are an athlete through and through. You are not doing 5 hour rides to lose weight, you are doing it for performance.
> 
> But most people aren't that way. They resort to gimmicky ways of cutting calories or trying to trick their body into losing weight, performance be damned. That's the mindset of a chronic dieter bordering on a eating disorder. And it rarely works for the majority who try it.


When I was 200 pounds, I was struggling to "shuffle" (not even jog) a mile, I was in BAD shape.

I'm just saying don't get discouraged by feeling weak and tired at the end, we all do. For some the end is an hour ride, for others it is 6.

And no gimmicks, just patience.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I agree that patience is the key. And he will need to push himself hard enough to feel weak and tired to see progress in his training.

But that's different from feeling weak and tired because he is improperly fueled. I can't imagine that 2000 calories for a 6' guy training for a marathon is proper fueling.


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## felix1776 (Nov 14, 2016)

cyclelicious said:


> Re diet... An interesting article about diet and weight loss
> 
> sauce https://www.bodybuilding.com/conten...ts-the-final-answer.html?mcid=SM_FB_Nutrition


So basically Stanford spent millions to "prove" what any decent nutritionist has known for years.

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## azmtbkr81 (Oct 10, 2005)

Wow, seems like this thread has generated a lot of interest, lots of good information here. I know it has only been a week but I thought I'd share a few thoughts/observations based on experimentation I've been doing.

-My general hunger level has dropped somewhat, seems like my body is starting to adapt to the 2000 calorie diet. I've realized that 2000 calories is a good baseline but not an absolute rule, with this in mind I am trying to achieve a 5-750 calorie deficit per day with the goal of losing 1-1.5 lbs per week.

-On days when I am doing 1-1.5 hour harder training rides or intervals a 200 calorie snack immediately before the ride gives me enough fuel to get through. On these days the extra calories are more than burned by the training effort.

-On less intense riding days and gym days no additional fuel is needed.

-I did a 4.5 hour ride this weekend and felt fast and strong, I ate approximately 500 additional calories (mostly carbs) the day before and ate what I wanted (within reason) the day of the ride. I still managed a 1000 calorie deficit that day without feeling starved.

-My weight has stayed the same but I noticed this morning that I'm down a notch on my favorite belt...I'll count that as minor progress.

-I spent about 9 hours on the bike last week and 2 in the gym, going to start increasing this by riding before work, may need to tweak my nutrition strategy further.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

midwestmtb said:


> The best way to lose weight over the long term is to signal to your body that it is living in an environment of abundance. Lots of sleep, reduce stress, eat when hungry (but don't overeat or eat junk food). And take recovery foods and drinks after the ride.


This is great advice. I have certainly read and experience that lack of sleep and stress can incur weight gain. And I've heard that we should try to make your body feel like it's "living in an environment of abundance" and not starving yourself. But somehow I never put those two together.

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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Yeah weight loss is tricky. Actually, the *right* kind of weight loss is tricky. The body always prioritizes survival which means that excess stress or huge calorie deficits will ramp up fat retention over muscle retention. So one can certainly lose weight from big calorie deficits but the rate of lean mass loss will be greater than fat loss. Metabolism also slows. Over a long enough period, the thyroid starts to downgrade too and then the person is screwed.

A buddy of mine who was 30lb overweight set a goal to lose it all in 3 months. Massive calorie deficit and a Type A personality helped him achieve it. Everybody was impressed in the short run......3 years later, he is fatter than ever. A new PR in weight gain because he screwed up his body.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

midwestmtb said:


> Yeah weight loss is tricky. Actually, the *right* kind of weight loss is tricky. The body always prioritizes survival which means that excess stress or huge calorie deficits will ramp up fat retention over muscle retention. So one can certainly lose weight from big calorie deficits but the rate of lean mass loss will be greater than fat loss. Metabolism also slows. Over a long enough period, the thyroid starts to downgrade too and then the person is screwed.
> 
> A buddy of mine who was 30lb overweight set a goal to lose it all in 3 months. Massive calorie deficit and a Type A personality helped him achieve it. Everybody was impressed in the short run......3 years later, he is fatter than ever. A new PR in weight gain because he screwed up his body.


It is interesting... I'm working out a few times a week and riding a few times a week, so it's a balancing act. Like most things in life finding the balance is key to success. I just wish the goalposts would stop moving as I get older! :madman:


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