# Paramount S-90 PDG Help



## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

Hi all,

I am just looking for some info about my paramount mountain bike frame.

I tried searching both here and on google and didnt really find much.I checked the waterford faq, but unfortunately it seems bc my frame was a transition year AND probably non-waterford production there is no good info, especially RE my serial number.

What I do know:

1. it is the model year AFTER the red-white-blue color scheme. (it's purple)
2. it had a sticker that said 'JAPAN' on the headtube
3. it is lugged w/ all cable stops on the main triangle built into the lugs
4. it has the following markings on it: Series 90 PDG MOS
5. it came with tange forks / XC Pro GG
6. only the drive side chainstay is curved

What I would like to know:

1. Was it indeed made in Japan? Or was it brazed at waterford? 
2. How many were made? 
3. Which tubing set is it? 
*4. How do i de-code my serial number 2E00070? * 
5. anything else of interest....??

This frame has lasted me since i bought it new back at the end of 1992. It has raced all over the east coast, all over the rockies, in the desert, in Japan, in Italy, the Netherlands and Germany. It is gonna live out the remainder of its days as my SS. Right now it hangs in all its chipped paint and dented tube glory on the wall in my office. Even though it isnt even really a 'real' waterford-paramount, it is still my baby and brought me MANY years of satisfaction. Thus, I'd like to know its complete pedigree.

Thanks for any help.


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## A:42 (Jan 6, 2004)

Going from memory, that was the first of the really light PDG 90's. A great colour, great bike, Made in Japan not Waterford. 
I think (hazy memory here) there were no Waterford Paramount complete mountain bikes readily available, and if there was it would have cost a large jump up from the PDG 90's @ $1,300 (again hazy memory). I believe you have a 1992 model, or early 93.

Oh and schwinn used to use the Julian Date in their serial number, though I am not sure it holds true for your bike. They might have put a sticker on bikes with the date at that point. (again cue hazy memory excuse)

Snip from www.bunchobikes.com/serialnumber5.htm

ON NEWER BIKES: 
you can find a 4 digit serial number lightly stamped onto the headbadge. 
The first three digits are the numerical day of the year, 
and the last digit is the last digit of the year.

EXAMPLE: 
3654 is 12/31/84 or 94 or? you determine decade.

Also there was some use of letter codes for month's Jan=A Feb=B etc..


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## Count Zero (Feb 5, 2004)

*Photos?*

Hey, would you mind posting some photos of that Paramount? It's a true classic, IMHO the pinnacle of lugged, steel, production mountain bike frame building.


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

It would be my pleasure to show some pics, but i prolly wont get to it until tomorrow. I have plenty of photos, but they are at home and I am still at the office and i'll have to scan them.

I will dig around and see if i have a decent photo of it when it was nice and new with original spec components....being almost twelve years the frame has seen a LOT of different components...

btw, i was hesitant about a lugged mtb, but i dont think i have ever once regretted buying that bike.



Count Zero said:


> Hey, would you mind posting some photos of that Paramount? It's a true classic, IMHO the pinnacle of lugged, steel, production mountain bike frame building.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*That would be a 1992 frame*

It was silver brazed Tange Prestige (or whatever the highest end Tange was at the time). Investment cast lugs with sexy cable guide noodles. 38 Special fork; also very nicely made and silver brazed. There was one (fork) on eBay last week...if only it was a 1" steerer.

As for the serial number I would guess it was #70 made in 1992


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

Shayne: yeah i guess the '70' part of that number could mean number 70. i wonder how many were made total? the cable noodles are pretty sexy. the one and only 'problem' i had was that they were pretty much v-brake in-compatible. but the lugs are sexy.

CountZero: Unfortunately I could only get my hands on a recent photo of the bike. This photo is the second to last 'build' that the bike saw before going into SS-semi-retirement. All the old photos i found are mid-race or rider + bike type photos. i'll dig around a little more over the weekend. nonetheless this photo shows the frame pretty well  :










_(if you right click the photo and in the URL replace the '3' with a '2' there is a 1024 wide image as well....)_



Shayne said:


> It was silver brazed Tange Prestige (or whatever the highest end Tange was at the time). Investment cast lugs with sexy cable guide noodles. 38 Special fork; also very nicely made and silver brazed. There was one (fork) on eBay last week...if only it was a 1" steerer.
> 
> As for the serial number I would guess it was #70 made in 1992


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Why V brakes?*

No offense but that thing looks terrible with that build. I think pretty much everyone agrees that V brakes offer no real performance increase in braking ofer a well set up pair of cantilevers.
And that threadless stem also ruins the nice clean lines of the front end.

As far as number built there were plenty, several thousand at least. The Series 70 used the same frame and fork.


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

offense? nah, everyone is allowed to have an opinion.

wrt component choice, that set up *functioned* really well for me. i think as a SS i'll run that frame & the 38 fork with riser bars and v-brakes. why? 'cuz that's what makes me happy and *that*, to me, is all that matters. 

the series70 was the same frame, huh? didnt know that. thanks for the info.



Shayne said:


> No offense but that thing looks terrible with that build. I think pretty much everyone agrees that V brakes offer no real performance increase in braking ofer a well set up pair of cantilevers.
> And that threadless stem also ruins the nice clean lines of the front end.
> 
> As far as number built there were plenty, several thousand at least. The Series 70 used the same frame and fork.


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## bulC (Mar 12, 2004)

*memory hazy on the details, but...*

I was at the official introduction of the Japanese Paramounts, in Chicago. I remember telling Richard Schwinn, who, unlike his bro Ed, was there to actually listen to someone else's opinion, that their plan to cash in on the cachet of the Paramount name with imported Paramounts would have the exact opposite effect of cheapening good name of Paramount, which had previously been a U.S. hand made frame since its inception in, if I recall, 1938.
Seem any new US Paramounts lately? There ya go....
That said, yours is still a nice frame, however.


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## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

Shayne said:


> I think pretty much everyone agrees that V brakes offer no real performance increase in braking ofer a well set up pair of cantilevers.
> I have several issues with this claim. First, what cantilevers are we talking about? Just about every V-Brake has very similar brake geometry with the calipers sticking almost straight up from the canti studs. But there are all different kinds of canti geometry. The old Mafac style ones, the mid-80's to early 90's/ CX-style medium profile ones, and of course the last generation of MTB cantilevers, the low-profile ones. Which one is getting compared to V-Brakes?
> Anyways, I got into riding when low-profile cantis were all the rage, and can say that I never once was able to set them up to get them to work like a V-Brake does. Keep in mind I know how to set up brakes, with the straddle cable low for leverage and pulled tight to eliminate mush, blah, blah, blah. On a normal fork and with the typical 22mm-wide rims of the day, I found that setting the cable hanger low required me to have to much pad post sticking out, which introduced flex, mush, and squeal. It would've worked better witha wider rim.
> Shayne, I am normally down with what you say, and I would've left this one alone if it weren't for the "I think pretty much everyone agrees that..." bit. Just when someone makes their most tendentious point, they always seem to say, "It's obvious that..." or "Anyone can see that...". That gets me every time.
> Anyways... Shayne, are you the one that said you knew where to find those Shimano 600AX road brakes I am hunting down? If so, didja happen to see them?


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

sniff....nothing quite like the feeling of being the unwanted-trailer-park-third-cousin at the paramout family reunion....just kidding. while you cant compare the frame with a fat chance or a ritchey of the early 90s, it still is a nice-riding frame.



bulC said:


> I was at the official introduction of the Japanese Paramounts, in Chicago. I remember telling Richard Schwinn, who, unlike his bro Ed, was there to actually listen to someone else's opinion, that their plan to cash in on the cachet of the Paramount name with imported Paramounts would have the exact opposite effect of cheapening good name of Paramount, which had previously been a U.S. hand made frame since its inception in, if I recall, 1938.
> Seem any new US Paramounts lately? There ya go....
> That said, yours is still a nice frame, however.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Not so true*



bulC said:


> Seem any new US Paramounts lately? There ya go....
> That said, yours is still a nice frame, however.


First of all Schwinn did release a new line of Paramounts for a few years in 2000 or so. I believe they were actually built by Serotta and badged as Schwinn Paramounts. Very nice frames.

Second the original Paramounts were built by the Waterford facility which went its seperate way when Schwinn was sold in the 90's. Everything comming out of that facility would be a Paramount if they were still part of Schwinn so in a way the top quality frames from decades ago are still in production.

Finally not all of the Paramount frames were made in Japan when some of the production was farmed out over there. The top few models were still made in the Waterford plant as well as custom orders. I actually found it hard to believe that the frame that began this post was made in Japan. I was pretty sure that the Series 70 and Series 90 frames were built in Wisconsin but that could have been a different year.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*I disagree*

The top end silver brazed frames offered from 1992-end of Paramounts in my opinion were superior in quality to any Fat Chance frame I've owned or seen. Deffinately on par with the early Ritchey frames. It's hard to compare though as there were very few fully lugged MTB frames in the mid 90's. And there is a lot more work and craftsmanship that goes into a lugged frame as opposed to a tiged frame.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Yeah, that's me*

I haven't made it over to the shop yet...sorry.

Maybe the "everyone agrees" was going a little far but a lot of people that frequent this and the brake board have expressed that opinion. I was refering to more of the mid-profile brakes of the early 90s Dia-Comp 986, Ritchey, anything Shimano.
I personally have never had a problem with the low profile brakes but I can understand how the setup could be a problem in some situations.


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## BobHufford (Jun 9, 2004)

*How the mighty have fallen*

The ad was on craigslist (New York) for several days.

1992 Paramount Series 90

I was wondering why it wasn't selling (for $50) and requested a photo. The bike looks to have had little use.

Photo of Paramount

Here is an ad from the March 1992 MBA:










Here is a link to the larger image:

Bigger Pic

Sometimes I wish I had money ... 

Bob Hufford
Springfield, MO


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

nice bike stand. mmm.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

i remember that ad.. those legs gave me the creeps but the bike. aaaahhh. i had that fork on a trek 8700. nice fork.. supple, beautifull lines. and tange prestige. i have an ultralight oversized prestige frame and it's the best mix of BB rigidity and comfort i've tried. probably it has nothing to do w/ the tubes and all to do w/ the builder but nevertheless i always wanted a prestige bike and wasn't disapointed.


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## SSPIN (Sep 21, 2004)

Kinda late to the party.

I was looking for stuff about PDG 90's and Boom. Here I am.

Mine was built by Waterford. Best handling bike I've ever owned. I have a couple of high end HT's and this one's by far my favorite.

It had a set of Grafton Canti's but, errr...I didn't like'em. Maybe V's are not better for some of you but for me they are.

Those platform pedals were replace by clipless because, you know, I have to be one with the bike. 




























I love her so much...


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## velokid (Aug 13, 2004)

*only a minor quibble...*



Shayne said:


> First of all Schwinn did release a new line of Paramounts for a few years in 2000 or so. I believe they were actually built by Serotta and badged as Schwinn Paramounts. Very nice frames.


The Paramounts from 5-6 years ago were built by the match Bicycle Company in Woodinville, Washington. match also handled production of Rivendell All-Rounders for a while. match folded, but one of their builders, Curt Goodrich, now builds all of Rivendell's framesets.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Oh, ok.*

Thanks for the info. I knew they were built here (US). Someone had mentioned that Serotta built them. Was that the Ti frames?


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## velokid (Aug 13, 2004)

*yep*



Shayne said:


> Thanks for the info. I knew they were built here (US). Someone had mentioned that Serotta built them. Was that the Ti frames?


You're correct - Serotta did build the Ti Paramount frames

Check out these pictures of a match-built Paramount. Now that's a beautiful road frame...but I'll just have to be happy with my RB-1.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

This 93 Paramount Team was my primary bike until 11 months ago. It has thousands of miles on it. The photo shows it with the slicks on it this spring when the trails were too wet to ride. I still use it off and on road.

I got it new and built it up right out of the box. It has had an AMP F-3 fork on it about half the time, but is currently running fully rigid.

If my memory serves correctly, it was hand built in Japan. It is a silver brazed, lugged frame built with Tange Prestige Precision Butted tubing. The information I received when I got it said that there were only 500 of the Team model made, and that this is the bike that the team rode in '93. I believe mine is number 200. Serial Number: N3F0200 I have only seen one other like it.


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## RJG (Jun 17, 2004)

*late to the party*

Here are the 2 Paramounts I have. I have a 91' 70 series (Japan) that has been basterdized as a single speed with V brakes, but I still have original parts in a box. The second is an 86'/87' Ned overend "Paramountain" (USA Built) frame original.


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## Dhorn33 (May 3, 2005)

Sort of off subject - but I was wondering if these Paramount bikes were in any way related to my super high end (sarcastically!) 1994 Schwinn High Sierra SS?? The rear geometry of the frame looks very similar to me?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Nice looking bikes RJ!


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## t2p (Jul 22, 2004)

btw: The pearl/pink-ish/purple-ish color on the 1992 Series 90 is known as 'Blue Velvet Gas'.


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## t2p (Jul 22, 2004)

.
btw: The pearl/pink-ish/purple-ish color on the 1992 Series 90 is known as 'Blue Velvet Gas'
.
As Shayne mentioned, a very high quality frame. And especially popular with a few frame builders in my area.
.
The Schwinn Paramount off road bikes are not the first quality Schwinn bikes to be dismissed. Schwinn offered some very nice high end lugged road frames/bikes in the late 80's - and they were not enthusiastically greeted. Schwinn Peloton, Prologue, and Circuits ......... some of those (bikes) frames were made with Columbus tubes (Columbus SL, SP) and some with Tange tubes. 
.


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

i just rode my paramount as a single speed in a 24 hour relay race over the weekend. got third place in the 8-person team division.

rode with an ENO rear hub and the original rigid fork.

I'll see if i can grab a new picture of it...it's looking completely different than the shot above...maybe shayne will like this new incarnation.


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## SSPIN (Sep 21, 2004)

Is there a link or website to take a look at this bike's geometry?


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