# Advice for first timer



## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

Considering doing a 2-day self supported 160ish mile gravel ride (100 first day)/overnight camping trip with some guys at the end of April. Weather may be foul or fair, but prob 40s-50s temp, rain def. possible. I have never bike-camped before, and the last time I truly "camped" (as in full blown pitched a tent in the middle of nowhere with no car and nothing but what I brung) was in cub scouts.

I have a surly pugsley, a 2 person tent (4 ft long bag), an old tarp, and a sleeping bag. I have a topeak rear rack that wont clear the disc brake in the back and the cants too far forward in the front. Also have an old canvass army backpack that supposedly is waterproof. I am good with packing for the ride part of it (I've done 100 milers before), but have no clue what else I should carry (obviously clothes) or how to carry it (i.e. how to physically configure the load on the bike). I cannot plop a bunch of dough on new equipment, although I can probably swing for a cheapo rack. 

So, what do I need to do this and how do I load up?

Advice is very much appreciated.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Your starting gear seems way too heavy. How much does the tent weigh? Canvas backpack weight? Your going to pedal 100 miles on the pugsly with a load of 20-30 lbs? On gravel? 10 mph for 10 hours? Seems like a lot. Need a rear rack for the bike plus a frame bag plus a handlebar bag/ sleeping bag holder. Cooking food? Bringing food/food prep? Water sources? Need bike clothes/rain clothes/sleep clothes? What is the other gear "some guys" are bringing? Split up weight? How would you carry a 4' tent? 40F and muddy roads and rain, pedaling 100 miles. Good luck with that. For my loaded road bike touring, I need 8 hours to do 60-70 miles on pave, with good weather. Got hills?


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## TheirOnlyPortrait (Dec 30, 2014)

leeboh said:


> Your starting gear seems way too heavy. How much does the tent weigh? Canvas backpack weight? Your going to pedal 100 miles on the pugsly with a load of 20-30 lbs? On gravel? 10 mph for 10 hours? Seems like a lot. Need a rear rack for the bike plus a frame bag plus a handlebar bag/ sleeping bag holder. Cooking food? Bringing food/food prep? Water sources? Need bike clothes/rain clothes/sleep clothes? What is the other gear "some guys" are bringing? Split up weight? How would you carry a 4' tent? 40F and muddy roads and rain, pedaling 100 miles. Good luck with that. For my loaded road bike touring, I need 8 hours to do 60-70 miles on pave, with good weather. Got hills?


+1 Leeboh! For me it also seem like a lot of distance (with too much weight) in a short period of time 

I'm new to bikepacking too and I'm planning my first bikepacking trip for the end of the month. My bike is less suited for the job than yours (Kona Cowan) but I'm carrying UL camping gear (Their Only Portrait. Camping gear list).

For this trip I'll be using a 10L dry bag strapped to the handlebar (2P tent, sleeping pad, sleeping bag, liner, bivy), 2 anything cages & bags at the forks (food & spares), rear rack with a 25L dry bag strapped to the top and an UL backpack for photography gear & electronics. 
Water will be carried in three 24oz bottles in the frame and 2 more in the rear rack (+ a 2L Platypus in the backpack if needed).

My trip would be 200 miles on gravel & singletrack (0% pavement) with high altitude (10000-12000ft) and strong winds, but I'm not in a rush and will be taking a week to ride it 

Good luck with your trip!!!

Saludos,
Federico


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## wahday (Mar 23, 2012)

My suggestions:

Gear:
•	You will want to go as light as you can on your gear but still be comfortable. I use a tarp and have never had issues, even in some pretty burly rainstorms. I have even used a basic utility tarp from Lowe's which served as both the groundcloth and protection. It's a little bulky, but not very heavy (certainly lighter than a full-on tent unless you have an uber-light backpacking deal). Alternatively, take a reasonable weight 2P tent and split the weight between you and another rider. 








•	Clothing-wise, I bring what I ride in and long underwear to sleep in. No extra change of clothes, just whatever else I need to stay warm (and I layer up with riding clothes if needed). And no extra shoes either. I just walk around in my SPDs or barefoot at camp. Baby wipes are your friend.
•	For an overnighter, you do not necessarily need cooking equipment if you eat cold food. But I like coffee so I use a little alcohol stove you can easily make yourself from aluminum cans. Otherwise, if you are with others, share the weight of the cook equipment.

DIY alky stove

Carrying it All:
•	Get a rack that will fit (thule's pack n pedal rack will fit virtually any bike, for example). 
•	I wouldn't use panniers unless you need the space (and already own them). Strap a stuff sack to the top of the rack. If rain is an issue, you can use a drybag, or just line (or wrap) the stuff sack with a plastic bag. Trash compactor bags are extremely durable.
•	For the bars, you can just strap a stuff sack on there with two cinching straps. No need for a sling or anything fancy. 
•	For a little extra storage on the bike, you might consider a Jandd frame pack. It doesn't fill the whole triangle, but hangs below the top tube. They have two types, here is the other. I think they are $40-50 and Jandd makes a very durable product. 
•	Fill the rest of your triangle space with water bottles.
•	In my opinion, you will want to minimize the weight on your back so you may consider getting a better suited backpack or try and borrow one. 100 miles with a heavy load and uncomfortable fit is going to make for a bad experience, IMO.

I would put the sleep system in a stuff sack on the bars (sleeping bag, tarp, pad), clothing, cookware, water filter (if applicable), and misc. bag (first aid, toothbrush, soap, TP, rags, extra cordage, etc) on the rack, water in the triangle and food, rain gear and tools in my pack. I use a hydration pack so I have water in there, too. I hang the backpack as my bear bag.
An example:








Obviously you may need to tweak the distribution based on the bulk of your items. If you use a utility tarp, for example, you can wrap the rear bag up inside it and strap to the rack to make that waterproof.

Riding a fully loaded bike can be awkward at first so ideally you are able to take a dry run before the excursion and make any adjustments. I try to balance what is on the bars with what is on the rear and then put the heaviest items in the triangle (ie water) to maintain the best handling.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

That you for the very helpful advice. I am looking at one of those cheapo "pup tents" on amazon and compression sleeping bags. I already have the tarp. I have a jandt frame pack that I use one side for tools/pump and the other for riding food. For water I have my main water bottle on the triangle and two bottle on the forks of the Pugs. There are plenty of gas stations along the way to refill on water. So, I will need a third bag for clothes/camping supplies--I can probable use the water roof bag for my old hefty coleman sleeping bag.


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## rooze (Oct 22, 2014)

I like your style.

I was in a similar place last year when I decided on a 4 day 3 night 280ish mile bikepacking trip.

I had a 29er mountain bike and hooked her up makeshift.

I went back and forth on tents. Should I go super light/small and forgo comfort, or haul a bit more around and have a good space for me and the gear. So I bought a bigger tent - a 2 person Eureka Apex 2XT. It's about 6.5 pounds, and 5"x24" pack size. It's perfect for me (I'm a bigger guy, 6'4"). I don't care that it weighs a bit more, I just like having the extra space and the quick assembly. Plus, the thing was only $80 on sale at Gander. 

I bought a self-inflate pad, again it's heavier and bulkier but it's comfortable and I don't have to forgo a lung to get the thing inflated. When you've been riding all day you want a tent that goes up quick and everything else to be easy to setup!
I probably should've spent a bit more on a bag, as the one I bought is quite bulky and of course the zipper came apart the first time I used it.

I bought a cheapo rear pannier rack and ordered a pair of pannier bags but they didn't arrive in time for the trip.

I used a sports zipper bag lashed to the rack with bungee cords. It contained my clothing and accessories. The sleeping bag was lashed to the top of the sports bag.

I lashed the the tent and the ground pad to the handlebars with bungee cords. It worked just fine. My tool kit was under the seatpost and I had another small accessories bag lashed to the front which was big enough for snacks and extra water.
I rode with a backpack containing extra clothing - only light stuff in the backpack. I've read where people discourage the use of a backpack whilst riding, but I found absolutely nothing detrimental about it other than it making your back a bit sweatier than the rest of you!
I'm tall and I'm generally the first to suffer with lower back discomfort if things don't fit right, but the backpack had no affect on me at all.

I didn't take any cooking gear. Had I wanted to cook I would've needed the pannier bags for the gear and food. So I dined out!

Accessories included a small flashlamp, some bio wipes for cleaning up, a few first aid odds and sods, toiletries, mosquito repellant, electronics - spare charge pack for the phone/GPS....and that was pretty much it.

I wanted to do this trip on the cheap and not spend a fortune on gear, as I wasn't sure if it would be something I'd enjoy, hence it was more of a test-trip.
I loved it, 'twas awesome.

This year I'm starting to think about how to tackle the touring/bikepacking. I have a Salsa BG Carbon and I'm considering using that for bikepacking. I bought a seatpost rack and an extension post for the bars which will allow me to carry more upfront.

But I may also buy a touring bike for trips which are primarily road. I already have the racks and some Ortlieb panniers and a few other bits.

Pretty much all I'll add to the list this season are some dry compression sacks and a mini-stove with some accessories for making tea and hot cereals.

That's my story.

Here's the rig from last season -


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## Beaumont_94 (Jun 19, 2011)

wahday How come you discourage pannier bags?


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## Quitou (Sep 1, 2014)

Beaumont_94 said:


> wahday How come you discourage pannier bags?


The majority of people bikepacking are doing it so they can tour more aggressive terrain, mostly singletrack. That's one of the things that separates "bikepacking" from traditional "bike touring." In order to successfully tour most singletrack routes, and retain the fun of riding, it is critical to go as light as possible with the load as balanced as possible. Panniers are usually..big...and encourage loads that are often too heavy for singletrack. Bikepacking also frequently requires a lot of pushing to get through steep sections, or those with a lot of terrain not easily traversed with a fully loaded bike. Pushing a bike with panniers...sucks.

In short, touring was for years not terribly desirable due to the limits imposed by heavy gear, racks and panniers. As camping gear shrank in size, it fit in "rack-less" bags which dispersed the load across the entire bike, primarily low in the frame. This is what revolutionized bikepacking and made it...fun again.

So, to many of us, racks and panniers harken to the days prior to modern bikepacking when touring kinda sucked.

I have also noticed there are two types of bikepackers. There are those who are just hauling their hulking camping gear loads from point A to point B. Then there are those who aspire to not degrade the ride quality of their bikes, and pack less, in a lighter package, with an eye on balancing the load. The result is a fully loaded bike that rips and shreds almost as well as an unloaded bike. For many bikepackers like me, retaining the fun spirited feel of the bike is what bikepacking is all about. Not just hauling gear like a donkey. THAT...is traditional bike touring. Bleh.


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## wahday (Mar 23, 2012)

Beaumont_94 said:


> wahday How come you discourage pannier bags?


They are fine for most applications. But on singletrack, tight settings and technical terrain they can get in the way Or throw you off balance. If possible, I prefer to have the rear weight centered above the wheel. Panniers are certainly manageable though. If you have'em, use 'em. I just wouldn't run out and buy them for this use until you know for sure what equipment will work best for you.

I agree with the above sentiment that one of the joys of Bikepacking is getting out there on a bike that still performs well under load. Where you are headed obviously has a lot to do with it. Not as big a deal on forest roads or flat terrain for example.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

I don't know your ability so this is just a gut check... But...

100 miles on a loaded fatty is way, way, incredibly, awesomely ambitious. Just... Wow. I mean... Like... Wow.

You sure about this?


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## Quitou (Sep 1, 2014)

I dunno. I did roughly 350 miles of SUPER difficult terrain in Iceland with a full fatty, and not just gear for a hostile climate but full professional camera gear including tripod, extra batts, etc. Not saying it was easy.  Fat bikes are pretty capable. It's not really about the bike. It's really about how people manage to eff up taking the right gear...light gear.

Story here: Salsa Cycles











connolm said:


> I don't know your ability so this is just a gut check... But...
> 
> 100 miles on a loaded fatty is way, way, incredibly, awesomely ambitious. Just... Wow. I mean... Like... Wow.
> 
> You sure about this?


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

connolm said:


> I don't know your ability so this is just a gut check... But...
> 
> 100 miles on a loaded fatty is way, way, incredibly, awesomely ambitious. Just... Wow. I mean... Like... Wow.
> 
> You sure about this?


Done the ride before on a fatty. .. mostly rail trail and atv trail..... just never done the packing/camping bit before.


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

Cool. Glad you've done it before. Just needed to know you were up for the century.

Best and cheapest bet is to strap everything you think you need to the bike and go for a shake out ride for an hour or two. That should give you insight as to what works and how the load balances. Then you'll have an idea on what to spend money on.

You'll get differing opinions on backpacks. I'm pro-backpack. I have a Camelback that has ~1400 cu inches storage plus water bladder (Can't remember the specific model). It can handle a fair amount of stuff. Key is to pack it low on my back and not use the top pocket so it doesn't bump my helmet.

I have a couple frame-bags that I got cheap from Niagaracycle.com. They have some gas cans and handlebar bags for <$25. I got the Sunlite Epic Tour bag when it was still available. Ibera also makes an inexpensive frame bag. I have one and it's no-frills funtional. See it here:

Amazon.com : Ibera Bike Black Medium or Large Triangle Frame Bag - For Bike Tube Frame, Quick-Access : Sports & Outdoors

You can get cheap/light tents online or at Walmart. My buddy and I rode 80miles each way out and back around Katahdin in Baxter with cheap Walmart tents bungied to our frame. They'd likely be lighter than 6lbs. Check out the wenzel Hiker/biker tent. With some careful mods, I got mine down to about two pounds. See here post #24 on this thread:

http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-bike-expedition/tent-overnight-stays-949792.html


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

connolm said:


> Cool. Glad you've done it before. Just needed to know you were up for the century.
> 
> Best and cheapest bet is to strap everything you think you need to the bike and go for a shake out ride for an hour or two. That should give you insight as to what works and how the load balances. Then you'll have an idea on what to spend money on.
> 
> ...


The fact I have done the route before does not mean I am anywhere in shape to do it this year . Thanks for the advice re: the tents and packing. I am looking at either the wenzel or some of the other cheap A-frames. Not a big backpack fan myself...bad lower back is exacerbated by any load carried for long distance. I will check out some of your bag recommendations.

Common themes here seem to be 1. go light 2. simple lashing is better than racks/panniers; and 3. do a shakedown ride with gear lashed.


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

I would say that a rear rack makes lashing easier than trying to lash a dry bag to your seat (speaking from experience, here). I believe one can be had for around $30 that will work for a pugsly (do some reading on the fatbike forum; I am sure I saw someone mod a cheap rack to fit a wide rear end), or you can look at a cheap seat bag if so inclined (ex Uraltour Saddle Packs - Uraltour.com - bike expedition), but that will run a bit more.

Otherwise, yes, lighter is better. I try to keep by backpack weight lower than about 8 pounds (just guessing on that weight based on what I carry). Bulky stuff and stuff that I need quickly/often go there.


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

*More links to (relatively) inexpensive stuff*

Having fun thinking about bikepacking... I'm in Boston and Bikepacking seems so distant yet. We're still buried under three feet of snow! So I wanted to post more ideas:

This stove is my favorite. It's light and easy to use. I tried jet-boil type stoves but found I prefer the simplicity of this stove. I can find fuel just about anywhere - _unlike_ JetBoil canisters. It boils water quickly and efficiently (6-8 minutes). In fact, for short trips, I just load the burner with fuel and that's it. It holds enough fuel to boil the pot 2-3 times in my experience. It comes with a boiling pot _and_ and frying pan! I can boil water in the evening for freeze-dried meals. Then in the morning, I make pancakes! I carry a little bit of folded aluminum foil to fashion into a wind-screen if necessary.

*Super-tip bonus*: I carry fuel, vegetable oil, and maple syrup in consumed "vodka nip" bottles. The Smirnoff ones are plastic, hold an ounce, and are _simply_ perfect. Plus it's fun to generate empty nip bottles.

*Super-super secret bonus tip*: I wrap some duct tape around one of the vodka nip bottles... It's always good to have 2-3 feet of duct tape for emergencies!

_If you really want to try a pressure fueled stove_, there are inexpensive ones available on Amazon like this one. I have one. It's nice and works as expected. I still prefer the Trangia alcohol stove myself. _But_ if you're riding with a group, you can take Jiffy-Pop to make on the pressure fuel stove and be the hero of the evening! Everyone loves fresh popcorn when sitting around the campfire. (Trim the handle of the jiffy-pop or fold it over for easier packing.) You can even remove the cardboard cover in advance to save a few grams.

More considerations:

My *food routine h*as become a routine albeit a bit unique. I usually stop at Subway the morning of a ride and buy a 12-inch sub without lettuce. Throw it in my bag. Eat half at lunch. Eat the other half at camp while I'm setting up. That second half staves my hunger for the hour or two it takes to setup, start a campfire, clean myself, and chill out for a few moments. Without it, I'd be rabidly hungry and solely focused on dinner.

*Dinner* _HAS_ to be a hot meal (for me, at least). It builds morale, makes me feel civilized, and is simply more satisfying than cold fold. It warms me up and makes me sleep better. I buy freeze-dried meals from REI and repack them in Zip-locs. They pack smaller that way. I write on the zip-loc bag with a sharpie what they are and how much boiling water they require.

*For second and third day lunches*, I buy those seasoned tuna fish packets like this one. I make tuna salad using 1-2 mayonaisse packets stolen from my work cafeteria. I can spread it on crackers I store in rolled paper-towels - or simply eat it from the packet with a spoon. It's high in protein/fat and very filling/satisfying.

*For clean-up*, I use the this soap for everything - including myself. For a sponge, I take one of those scotch-brite sponges and cut it 1/4. It's useful for scrubbing my pots and myself.

More to come....


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

connolm said:


> I don't know your ability so this is just a gut check... But...
> 
> 100 miles on a loaded fatty is way, way, incredibly, awesomely ambitious. Just... Wow. I mean... Like... Wow.
> 
> You sure about this?


Yeah, second that (or thrid... or fourth). I remember doing a 12 mile simple ride on a friend's Pugs at China Camp (easy trails). It was a handful... and that was without bikepacking gear. I'm in decent shape, but I was seriously going half as fast as I do on my hardtail 29er, and working just as hard to maintain half as fast.

Now, I wouldn't want to discourage you from riding your fatbike. They're fun as heck to ride. I would just suggest that maybe you keep the miles down to 40-50 a day until you get a feel... to see if you can do more. It would suck to come up 30 miles short of your campsite and have to pitch a hobo camp hidden in the weeds.

Then again, that sounds kinda fun, too!

It might be worthwhile to just strap on all your camping gear and go do a regular ride you do.... see how many miles you can do in a day loaded down on your home trails.


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

*Sleeping and coverage*

My sleep system is complicated. It's main focus is on anticipated temperature.

For warm temps, I use a fleece sleeping sack from Dick's that is similar to this. I got mine at Dick's for like $14. I re-pack it without the bag. It's light and small. Great for temps in the 60s or better. Wrap it with a couple large rubber bands and you've got them along for the ride too.

For temps in the upper 40s, 50s and low 60s, I use the fleece bag stuffed into a Sol Bivvy space blanket like this. It's crazy light and small. The combo is smaller and lighter than any sleeping bag I've ever seen. For colder temps, I wear more clothes to sleep in.

For Sleeping below mid 40s, I have sleeping bags - but sadly they're not inexpensive.

I value a good night's sleep more than just about anything. It's important to refresh and heal for the next day of riding. To achieve that truly good sleep, I need a pad. Sadly my airpad isn't cheap and I haven't yet found an inexpensive alternative. I'd love to hear suggestions. I've tried inflatable pool-toys from Toys-R-US and carpet padding. Those attempts are more leak-prone, bulky, and heavy than my X-Lite Neolite Air. This is likely my most expensive investment after the bike-itself. (_And my foray into expensive tents, sleeping bags, stoves, lights, solar chargers, etc..._)


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

*More Cheap-o ideas...*

The best multi-use investment I can recommend is a plastic paint tarp from Home Depot from for $4.97.

That sh:t is about the most functional product I've ever used beside the bike itself. Cheap, disposable, light, compact....

Seriously, cut a 3-7 piece as a tent ground cloth. Dispose of it the following day if you're in place where that's possible. Run some para-cord between two trees and string this up as a dining fly. Cover your cheap Walmart tent with it as a rain fly. Cover yourself with it as necessary.

*Super bonus tip*: Use some of the duct tape (wrapped around the nip bottle as mentioned above) to create grommets. Cut a 3-4 inch piece, fold it over the section where you want a grommet, fold it half and cut a hole. With the duct tape, the hole will not tear. I've created large, camp-site wide covering rain-flies this way. Again, everyone in your group will be exceptionally grateful in a down-pour. (I can find some pictures of this somewhere....)

I know many people can sleep under this stuff tarp-style.


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

*Water and water purification*

If you're travelling beyond safe water limits,  this has proven to be the best solution for me.

It's from Walmart. Cheap. Small. Light. More so than any filter (other than maybe a Steripen). It does require about 30 minutes to treat water. So plan ahead.

Still want a filter... I use the Katydin Hiker Pro. I simply sucked it up and paid the full price. No cheap-o work-arounds for this as far as I know. Welcome comments. Wrap a coffee filter around the in-take valve to prolong lifespan!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Connolm, tried a closed cell foam pad? Works well. Really good sleep? Try a hammock. Way awesome. You do need something to hang them from, haven't run out of trees here in MA. I use an eno double nest, bug net and a sil tarp, small and pretty light weight.


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## TheirOnlyPortrait (Dec 30, 2014)

connolm said:


> My sleep system is complicated. It's main focus is on anticipated temperature.
> 
> For warm temps, I use a fleece sleeping sack from Dick's that is similar to this. I got mine at Dick's for like $14. I re-pack it without the bag. It's light and small. Great for temps in the 60s or better. Wrap it with a couple large rubber bands and you've got them along for the ride too.
> 
> ...


Hola Connolm,

Sea to Summit's Spark sleeping bag is pretty small in size & weight, but unfortunately not very cheap.
Their Only Portrait. Sea to Summit Spark SP1 sleeping bag

I use Klymit's Static sleeping pad and it's not much bigger/heavier than Thermarest's... and it's 65% cheaper.
Klymit Static V Sleeping Pad - REI.com

Saludos,
Federico


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## TheirOnlyPortrait (Dec 30, 2014)

connolm said:


> If you're travelling beyond safe water limits,  this has proven to be the best solution for me.
> 
> It's from Walmart. Cheap. Small. Light. More so than any filter (other than maybe a Steripen). It does require about 30 minutes to treat water. So plan ahead.
> 
> Still want a filter... I use the Katydin Hiker Pro. I simply sucked it up and paid the full price. No cheap-o work-arounds for this as far as I know. Welcome comments. Wrap a coffee filter around the in-take valve to prolong lifespan!


Hola Connolm,

To filter water I use a small & pretty cheap Sawyer Mini 
Sawyer MINI Water Filter - Sawyer

Saludos,
Federico


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

So, I think I have narrowed down my gear choices. As this is my first trip, I didn't want to spend a ton, but I also wanted stuff that would last a few more trips if I find out I like this and that will let me get a good night's sleep and wouldn't be too heavy to transport. Here is what I am going to get:

1. Texsport Cliff Hanger Three Season Backpacking Tent by Texsport 









2. Therm A Rest RidgeRest Classic Sleeping Pad









3. Suisse Sport Alpine Adult Mummy Double Layer Sleeping Bag









4. 13L Sea to Summit Lightweight Dry Sack

5. Paint Tarp

6. Bungee cords

Total = $175.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Good start. Tent weight?


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

(Not the Original Poster - but I was so excited to see his list, I had to look it up!)

TexSport lists the carry weight for the Cliff Hanger tent at 3.5 lbs. Not too shabby! I have the TexSport SAguaro. I've winter AND summer camped with it. Nice tent. I think you'll do really well with this Cliff Hanger. Nice design - it's a mesh tent with a rainfly. That will keep you cooler at night and help with condensation.

Found this review. Reviewer seem to really like it.

All this gear talk has me _jones-ing_ to camp myself! This is the worst time of year - wet and cold. 39F and rainy in Massachusetts.I find it easy to winter and summer camp. These transition seasons are rougher.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

Also ordered a Molle 2 sustainment pouch and going to see if I can re-purpose it for a seatpost bag.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

So, the gear arrived. Tent is decent size. Sleeping bag is a lot bigger than I thought. The foam pad is humungous... but very light weight. Add in change of clothes for second day, bike tools and food,. warm stuff for sleeping and overall it seems a ton of stuff and weight to carry for just one night. No clue how I am going to attach all this crap to my bike. Would prefer not to use a rack, but that seems inevitable at this point.


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## jan_nikolajsen (Oct 28, 2011)

Tent and bag pictured above looks somewhat heavy. But compact UL stuff costs a lot of money. So what do you do?

One of the issues with bikepacking, especially for beginners, is that it is most successful with expensive, quality equipment. Much more so than regular bike touring and especially backpacking, where regular Walmart boy scout gear and low levels of experience typically gets the job done in one way or another.

It mostly boils down to the challenge of actually attaching these things securely and in a way that allows the riding to be fun, as the OP found out. Web straps and stuffsacks don't cut it. Retrofitting army surplus takes some ingenuity. Real bikepacking bags are pricey. A full suspension bike further complicates things.

The storage capacity without racks is extremely limited. The bikepacker on a budget with big, cheap and bulky equipment often ends up with too much overflow weight in a big backpack, a highly undesirable situation.

Sorry about the discouraging, negative tone of my post. I'll be the first to admit gear snobbery to the extreme. You'll do fine!


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

jan_nikolajsen said:


> Tent and bag pictured above looks somewhat heavy. But compact UL stuff costs a lot of money. So what do you do?
> 
> One of the issues with bikepacking, especially for beginners, is that it is most successful with expensive, quality equipment. Much more so than regular bike touring and especially backpacking, where regular Walmart boy scout gear and low levels of experience typically gets the job done in one way or another.
> 
> ...


I will politely disagree with about half your post. The tent is not terribly heavy (idk about the bag...I am on my phone), straps and a dry bag work just fine on the front, especially on the type of terrain the op is planning to ride (basically gravel grinding). Finally, the op discussed using his pugsley, so full sus, while a challenge for packing, is not applicable in this situation. within reason, Legs, not gear, are the limiting factor.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

The tent is 3.5 lbs and relatively compact. Sleeping bag isn't particularity heavy but does not compass as much as I expected. I looked at some super light compact bags. ...but the ones price range were only rated for 55 degrees. ..here in Wisconsin 55 degrees is shorts weather. Expecting it to be 30-45, so I needed something insulated. 

The bag I got is still waaaay lighter than the old Coleman bag in the basement...the sleeping mat is very light but very bulky. ..either the stuff sack or army bag will strap to be seatpost. I could strap the mat and tent to the handlebars, but it looks like I will need the rack for the sleeping bag.


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## TheirOnlyPortrait (Dec 30, 2014)

skankingbiker said:


> So, the gear arrived. Tent is decent size. Sleeping bag is a lot bigger than I thought. The foam pad is humungous... but very light weight. Add in change of clothes for second day, bike tools and food,. warm stuff for sleeping and overall it seems a ton of stuff and weight to carry for just one night. No clue how I am going to attach all this crap to my bike. Would prefer not to use a rack, but that seems inevitable at this point.


Hola skankingbiker!

This is another cheap way to attach your gear to the bike:
http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-bike-expedition/make-your-own-bikepacking-gear-823877.html

If you know anyone with a sewing machine you can get a full bikepacking setup for less than USD 40. I spent the last 2 days making a frame bag, a handlebar "sweetroll", 2 anything cages' bags, and still have materials left for a saddle bag...

Saludos,
Federico


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## Welnic (Feb 6, 2013)

Go ahead and use a rack. There are several reasons not to use a rack.

1) I think the biggest reason is that then you end up with a very easy way to attach big panniers and a top bag and you have too much room available to put stuff. But to avoid this you need expensive ultralight gear. You've already not gone this route, so use a rack.
2) Panniers on a rack are a pain if you are doing very narrow singletrack or if you have to push your bike a lot. Neither applies here.
3) They are more weight than if you can directly attach your gear somehow. Oh well.

Even if you have good ultralight gear at some point you need to go to a rack. Winter camping, need to carry lots of water, traveling with someone else who can't carry enough gear can all make a rack a nice thing to have.


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## fourfa (Mar 5, 2014)

Having overpack capacity (ie UL gear not filling normal sized panniers) is GREAT when you are riding with people, camping reasonably near a town, and want to fill that space with bags of chips, bottles of beer, whole rotisserie chickens, and all kinds of other things you never craved before spending weeks cycling all day long.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

unfortunately, I think the backpack I purchased, while warm, is rather too bulky to easily transported on a hundred plus mile ride. so, I am looking at other options. One option I have been looking into is the s.o.l escape bivy. I generally sleep hot and plan on carrying Thermal under layers for sleeping anyways, so this seems like it might be a good light weight, compact option for a single night. Combined with my sleeping pad and perhaps an emergency blanket, I wonder if this would get the job done. Reviews on YouTube seem to indicate that this is a durable product and not simply a flimsy mylar "space blanket". then again, if this was a viable option, I guess I'd be seeing more people here using them. What are your thoughts?


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

What temps anticipated?

I use a sol bivvy for warmer temps >55F. For less than that, I stuff a small small fleece into it. That's a pretty warm setup - especially if you wear thermals. Might keep you down to the 30s. Might... (I certainly wouldn't rely on it exclusively for temps less that 55F. It's for survival - not comfort.)

Will try to take pics tonight.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

connolm said:


> What temps anticipated?
> 
> I use a sol bivvy for warmer temps >55F. For less than that, I stuff a small small fleece into it. That's a pretty warm setup - especially if you wear thermals. Might keep you down to the 30s. Might... (I certainly wouldn't rely on it exclusively for temps less that 55F. It's for survival - not comfort.)
> 
> Will try to take pics tonight.


Weather is a crapshoot. Could be anywhere from 35-55 at night. I plan on wearing thermals, a silk turtleneck, wool socks, baklava and gloves.

If the SOL bivy and a fleece will let me sleep with that set up and not freeze, then that may be the way I go. Also looking at human burrito options with all weather space blanket and/or tyvek, but condensation seems to be an issue there


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

*Sol Bivvy pics*

I have TWO sol bivvies. One is purely a single-use "aluminum foil" type survival wrap. The other is more robust with a cotton-type liner and a silver reflective "tyvek-type" material.

The "nicer" one is 258 grams/0.57 lbs and about the size of a Pabst pounder can:









You can see the soft, cotton-like liner in this picture. Note the edges are sewn and the nice velcro feature for closing it up. I've used this bivvy over and over again. It folds and rolls nicely:









The smaller, single-use foil wrapper is 109 grams/0.24 lbs and smaller. But I suspect once you open it, you'll never get it folded back up that small again. Plus it seems like it would make a ton of noise and tear easily.

















Here's a side-by-side size comparison:









I got my fleece liner from Dick's Sporting Goods for $14.99. It rolls up and has elastic loops sewn in. It weighs 510 grams/1.12 lbs and is about the size of a 1L seltzer bottle.









Here's a size comparison with my "nicest" down sleeping bag, the Stoic Vamp 30. The bag weighs 1053 grams/2.32 lbs. You (hopefully) can see the Sol and Fleece are smaller combined than the sleeping bag and weigh 285 grams/0.57 lbs LESS:









The fleece and Sol are easy to roll and pack. The fleece can be shoved just about anywhere. The down bag is actually compressed as small as it will get and is quite "un-malleable" and dense. The sol and fleece were about $35 for both. The bag was $150.

So the Sol and Fleece are lighter, smaller, and cheaper... BUT...

The down bag is really REALLY _REALLY_ much more comfortable. It's soft downy goodness feels like nothing else - a trait you may truly welcome after 100 miles in the saddle. It even smells good.

Reflecting on the coldest I've used the Sol and Fleece... I recall sleeping in it down to the low 40s. I slept well - but I was also two days in on 80 mile days and was quite exhausted already.

_Important note: As I was researching sleep systems, I quickly learned that everyone has a different definition of comfortable. Some sleep hot. Some sleep cold. You need to know yourself and make an appropriate decision. And also... Most manufacturers lie about their sleep comfort rating!_


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## wahday (Mar 23, 2012)

I also have the SOL Escape Bivvy. I would not use it alone below the mid-50's. Even with a lot of clothing layers you may want a fleece liner or similar. Fleece bag liners are pretty cheap and I think combined you will still be less bulky than with the bag you bought. An emergency mylar blanket is always in my emergency kit anyway since they are so light and small. And I have had to use it before, so good thing. 

You could also try and borrow a decent lightweight down bag from someone. Same goes with a backpack. It is only one night afterall…

My packing recommendation is to borrow a down bag or get a fleece bag liner and combine it with a SOL Escape Bivvy (and emergency blanket just in case). You should be able to stuff these items along with your clothing in a single stuff sack to strap to the handlebars. You do not need an additional change of clothes. Just bring something clean to sleep in (long undies) and some baby wipes. Bring one pair of riding clothes and wear them both days. Same goes for shoes – just walk around in your riding shoes at camp.

Put the tent and sleeping pad on your rack. If needed, you can likely get a few miscellaneous items in the tent bag or put it all in a larger bag. Toiletries, cook stuff (and you don’t all need to bring a stove – just a cup and utensils) and that should be about it.

I generally put my rain gear, small first aid kit, tools and food in my backpack. Then I hang the pack as a bear bag at night. Keep it light!

Sounds like you have plenty of room for water bottles on the bike.

You’re set!


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## oldladybiker (Apr 10, 2012)

By now, you may have already done your proposed trip. But if not, may I suggest you try a much shorter "shake-down" overnight trip (or 2 or 3) to test out your gear? No substitute for personal experience using the gear you have in mind to figure out what works and what doesn't before committing to too much distance/time and possible misery resulting from unsuitable (too much, too little, too heavy, too flimsy, etc) equipment...Happy trails, fair weather, and have fun.


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## oldladybiker (Apr 10, 2012)

Wish I liked an ultralight hammock, but I'm a side/stomach sleeper--cannot sleep in a hammock and, here in WY, there are many places I ride without ANY trees on which to hang a hammock. Likewise, closed cell foam pads used to be comfortable for me, but now they're brutally hard--maybe I've gotten too old and fat. Being primarily a backpacker (i.e. on foot), I'm careful about equipment weight (too bad I'm not as careful about body weight...), but one of my few splurges is for my old inflatable ThermaRest 3/4 pad--well worth the slightly heavier weight for a decent sleep--or my newer ultralight NeoAir (but it's $$$ and not as comfy as old ThermaRest). For shelter, I use an ultralight cuben fiber backpack tent with built-in bug netting ($$$) or a slightly heavier conventional 1-2-man backpack tent (can find very good ones for $). I've tried simple tarps, but I cannot tolerate the flapping noise (or the ripped-away tarp) in the usual wind here in WY, plus I want bug netting. Site-specific conditions, personal preference, and trade-offs...



leeboh said:


> Connolm, tried a closed cell foam pad? Works well. Really good sleep? Try a hammock. Way awesome. You do need something to hang them from, haven't run out of trees here in MA. I use an eno double nest, bug net and a sil tarp, small and pretty light weight.


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## Quercus agrifolia (Jan 30, 2005)

*Great thread!*

Lots of great info in this thread! I totally support the idea of using what you have for the short, entry-level trips. That's really the best way to find out what's important to you, and not spend money needlessly.

Connolm, I really enjoyed your food routine writeup. That just about matches mine to a 'T', except add the post-ride whiskey routine and the pre-ride coffee routine.

The season is ramping up quickly, I hope everyone has trips on the calendar! Don't forget the summer solstice on June 20, perfect opportunity for a bike campout!

Cheers,

N.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Man. This is really making me want to just quit work and hit the trails!

It has also made me think of a few questions I have not seen covered in my hopping around the forums:

1. weight distribution on the bike: do all of you vets prefer to pack heavier stuff on the over the front wheel; directly on the stem (handlebars); on the frame; or on the back rack?

2. what would be the 3 most essential repair items to bring after a multi-tool?

I think I have everything else figured out for my upcoming ride plans, but want to poll the electorate here.

Also, does anybody have any suggestions for cool rides in the Great Lakes/Mid-West area? I live in Central Ohio. 

My first official "trip" is going to just be day trips (to break in my body and my new bike -> Surly ECR woot, woot!!!) in the Lake Placid area this June. The first goal is to be able to hit the longer overnight jaunts in the fall and winter around home after some summer training and gear acquisition.


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## jan_nikolajsen (Oct 28, 2011)

1. weight distribution on the bike: do all of you vets prefer to pack heavier stuff on the over the front wheel; directly on the stem (handlebars); on the frame; or on the back rack?

Frame bag, for sure. Second is rear, although I don't use a rack. I do a lot of hike-a-biking on my trips and a heavy front end makes it very hard for me to get up steep, stepped climbs.

2. what would be the 3 most essential repair items to bring after a multi-tool?

Pump. Chain breaker, quick link. Tubeless tire repair kit. Spare tubes.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

jan_nikolajsen said:


> 1. weight distribution on the bike: do all of you vets prefer to pack heavier stuff on the over the front wheel; directly on the stem (handlebars); on the frame; or on the back rack?
> 
> Frame bag, for sure. Second is rear, although I don't use a rack. I do a lot of hike-a-biking on my trips and a heavy front end makes it very hard for me to get up steep, stepped climbs.
> 
> ...


cool. I will catalog this info. Trying to figure out little things like packing weight in the right place that I feel like I used to overlook back in my hiking/cc-skiing days. Same thing with the tools. I always felt like I carried items that I ended up never using, though I thought I would before the trip


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## oldladybiker (Apr 10, 2012)

My preferred water purification method is chlorine dioxide liquid drops (e.g. AquaMira brand)--effective, ultralightweight, tiny, inexpensive, simple, no moving parts or batteries to fail, no bad taste. Simply add Part A to Part B in your container of water, wait 15-20 min's, during which time you can be doing something else, like relaxing or setting up camp. I've tried them, and for me, filters are for the birds: relatively heavy and bulky, expensive, always clogging, hoses blow off, handles break, lots of work pumping a mere liter or so whilst hunched down on a slippery rock when already weary at the end of a long ride/hike. Iodine tablets are cheap, simple, and readily available, but they make water taste awful, stain your water containers, and they bother my sensitive stomach. Boiling works in a pinch, but it consumes a lot of fuel and leaves you with scalding hot water when you likely want a nice cool drink. If "floatsies" in the water bother you, often much of this will settle to the bottom of your container over time if you do not disturb the container, then pour slowly from the container so as not to stir the solids back into suspension. But do treat any suspicious/unknown water--I've gotten giardia, and you do not want it.


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## connolm (Sep 12, 2009)

Can't get tools down to three... I need four: tire levers, pump, patch kit, and multi tool with metric hex wrenches and chain tool.


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