# New bike needed! Salsa or Ghost?



## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I’m getting back into mountain biking since I have places to ride now. A lot has changed since my ‘95 GT Avalanche! Looking at a Ghost Kato 6 from REI on clearance and a lightly used Salsa Timberjack SLX. Both are 2018 models. If you need any more info let me know. I appreciate and recommendations even if it’s other bikes. Thanks.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

The Kato 6 doesn't look like a bad bike at all. You do get an air fork, 2x10 setup, and an SLX rear derailleur. I have 3 suggestions if you choose this bike. I would think about a 780mm handlebar to give you a bit more control. 720mm is still a great width, but you can find great deals on 780mm aluminum bars. While you are at it, grab a set of grips too. I like to use ODI Rogue grips because they are grippy and feel great. 

My next suggestion is related to tires. I'm not too sure what the terrain is like in Ohio, but 2.2" tires may or may not be suitable for that area. Worse case, just ride the 2.2" tires out there and when it's time to replace, you could possibly find a good deal on 2.3" tires for a bit more grip. I will venture a guess that your stock rims are probably somewhere between 20 - 23mm inner diameter. Due to this inner rim width, make sure you don't go too big on the tires.

I am also recommending a dropper post. They have all sorts of posts for different budget ranges. I love using PNW Components droppers because they are a local brand. While looking at dropper posts, the externally routed models are the most common and slightly cheaper than internally routed. Your bike might only take an externally routed dropper.

Oh and don't forget to buy some butt padding too. It helps a lot with fatigue and keeping your ass happy while sitting on the saddle. I like to wear Zoic Ether shorts. They come with a liner too. You do find them on sale at REI every now and then.


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## Uwibami (Apr 26, 2017)

Timberjack


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Battery said:


> The Kato 6 doesn't look like a bad bike at all. You do get an air fork, 2x10 setup, and an SLX rear derailleur. I have 3 suggestions if you choose this bike. I would think about a 780mm handlebar to give you a bit more control. 720mm is still a great width, but you can find great deals on 780mm aluminum bars. While you are at it, grab a set of grips too. I like to use ODI Rogue grips because they are grippy and feel great.


I would not recommend this. IME in riding in the region (IN, MI, OH), wide bars can be problematic because the trails are MUCH twistier there than most places. Smaller/narrower pieces of open land tend to result in trails that get packed in tight. They tend to be much closer to trees, too. An experienced rider is likely to manage fine with wide bars, but if OP is coming from a 1995 GT Avalanche, 720mm bars are going to be a substantial jump in width as it is, and will most likely be banging trees with them until getting used to them. You can put wider bars on a bike anytime, so I wouldn't even think about it changing them right away.

I don't think OP need worry too much about the width of the tires, either. My only concern would come from tread pattern. Moving into fall with leaves dropping now, or soon, I'd consider something with a bigger, deeper knobby tread for the season, unless the bike already has something like that. Micro-knobby xc tires work great in the region for summertime, though. Micro-knobby xc tires will be usable, but it's getting into the lower-traction season and I just always managed better changing tires seasonally up there.

Either bike is probably fine, as long as they're the right size. Pick the one you like best. $800-$1000 gives you a reasonable selection of decent hardtails.

First thing to fit in the budget for changes, IMO, should probably be pedals. The used bike is probably likely to not include pedals at all and the new one will probably come with crappy stock plastic platforms if it comes with any at all (only good for test rides and neighborhood riding). Maybe the stock saddle will work, maybe not. So I'd hold off on that until you give the stock one a fair shake. Grips I'd consider in the same group. Maybe they'll be fine, maybe not. I've developed strong enough preferences over the years that I wouldn't hesitate to swap those out right away since I already know what I like. But if you don't have those developed preferences, then don't worry about it yet.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

where are you from in Ohio


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Geez Harold, you are a well-seasoned rider 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

re: wide bars....when I got my Krampus, I definitely had to rethink some of the lines on trails around here. The Salsa Whammy bars are 780mm. That also forced me to relearn how to (probably more correctly) steer with my body as well. It can be done however on most of the trails around here...


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Thanks for all the great feedback. I agree not going too wide on the bars. It felt weird test riding a few with the wide bars. I will likely use stock bars and see how it goes. It’s an easy fix. I think overall the salsa has better components but both are very nice. There are way too many options out there! We have trek, giant and specialized around me but wanted to try something different but didn’t know much about the companies. I know trek has lifetime frame warranty but these only have 3 or 5 year. Not a huge deal but something to consider. Thanks


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Speaking of pedals, I would look at a set of One Up Components composite pedals or the Race Face Chesters. I swapped my Chesters for the One Up pedals and they give me a bit better grip. They are just slightly wider and have a couple extra pins too. They are competitively priced against the Chesters. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I live in NE Ohio near Youngstown.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GSR007 said:


> I will likely use rock bars and see how it goes.


Are you talking about bar ends?

Old school bar ends are going to be weird on modern wider bars. They'll be so much farther out there that they'll be more likely to hook on stuff like vines...which won't be pleasant. If you want bar ends, there are options that work better with modern wide bars. Ergon grips with built-in bar ends are one example, SQ Labs "innerbarends" are another. But they're not going to offer much protection (if any) from hitting things.

If you want protection from hitting things, there are gloves with light protection built in for such things. But the better way for most xc riding is to work on your technique and line selection so you are able to avoid hitting trees with the ends of your bars.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Battery said:


> Geez Harold, you are a well-seasoned rider
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've been at it for a long time, and I've lived (and ridden) in a lot of different places with a wide variety of trails.



GSR007 said:


> I live in NE Ohio near Youngstown.


In that case, you're located in a spot that offers you access to a variety of stuff. Head west and you get into the "midwestern xc" type trails I was referring to above. Head east and you start to get access to something rather different in PA with more elevation change, more rocks, and trails with an entirely different character where wider bars would be useful. Even some downhill specific stuff (I think 7 Springs would be closest to you, but some other spots in WV are not inaccessible, either).

Still, I wouldn't recommend major changes to any bike you buy right away. You'll have enough to adapt to jumping ahead 23 years in mtb tech.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

No not bar ends I meant the stock handlebars. Sorry I’m doing this from my phone and typos happen frequently


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Ghost Kato 6 has *really* short reach numbers. 420mm on a Large. That'd give me no cockpit space so I couldn't ride that ride. Except maybe with a stupid long stem. And a 70* head tube angle--steep. A complete pass.

458 on the Large Timberjack. 68* ht>.

It's all about the geo.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Ok that’s the kind of info I’m looking for. I’m 5’10” with 31” inseam and according to salsa website that’s a size M. I’m not up on all the new geometry and slacker and drop post terminology! I just want to ride off road. Lol


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Another question. The salsa is a 27.5+ tire. Could input a regular size tire on it if I decide I don’t like it? Or does it only take 27.5+ or 29?


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Plain 27.5 will drop the bb so you'll possibly get some more pedal strikes. Which can be a pain depending on your terrain. The Timberjack comes as a 29 model with 2.6 tires to start also.

With a 31 inseam at 5'11" there's no size of the Ghost you can ride.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

So the ghost is out. What size should I get in the salsa? M looks good on paper but I have no place to test ride. Just want to be sure it will work. Thanks


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

So why is the geometry of the ghost not right for me? I’m 5’10” and 31” inseam in bare feet. 178cm fits into medium for salsa. Any other options out there me? Looking for good deal used if possible.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GSR007 said:


> So why is the geometry of the ghost not right for me? I'm 5'10" and 31" inseam in bare feet. 178cm fits into medium for salsa. Any other options out there me? Looking for good deal used if possible.


Don't put too much stock into manufacturer size charts. I am 5'8 and salsa thinks I should ride a small. That is bullshit. I ride a medium salsa and it fits great.

You need to ride the bikes in question and decide what is comfortable.

Eb has lots of strong opinions, but he is mostly full of crap. Some bikes have different geometries. The geometry of the timberjack is more "modern" than the ghost, but that doesn't mean that the ghost won't work for you. It will be closer to your old gt than the salsa.

As for tire sizes, you will be somewhat limited by rim width. A given rim width will have a range of tire widths it will work with. You can't just throw on anything the same diameter and expect it to ride well. And yeah, even if you did it, the bike will be significantly lower to the ground, which is only part of the "riding well" part.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

It's the reach number that tells you the cockpit space. And you have, based on your inseam and height, a long torso. That means you need more reach for your upper body or you'll be cramped. No one wants to use a 100mm or longer stem to create that space. It screws with the steering. . . .and the ghost has the shortest reach numbers I've seen. Plus a steep head tube angle to make it twitchy.
That geo is 10 years out of date.
A bike more comparable to the TJ is a Santa Cruz Chameleon.
https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/chameleon

Harold. Express your opinion. 
_*Stop with the personal attacks. *_
Before you deserve a ban.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

eb1888 said:


> Harold. Express your opinion.
> _*Stop with the personal attacks. *_
> Before you deserve a ban.


Don't like what Isaid? Report me.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)




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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I like cheese with my whine.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Last weekend we met two young guys on the trail that were out for their fist ever mtb ride on matching Timberjacks they bought the day before. Since they didn't know the trail, they asked to ride with us. 
The bikes were very nice and spec'd very nicely as well. Considering these guys were brand new at trail riding, they did an excellent job. To me, that shows how well the bikes were dialed in.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

The Timberjack is on my list for good quality, well-priced bikes. And Salsas are well-finished. I'd get the Timberjack.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Definitely get the timberjack.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Agree that the Timberjack is the better bike between the 2. I’m working on a deal for a used one and hopefully will get it soon. Thanks for all the responses


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

So after all that the seller backed out of the deal. I’m back in the market for a nice bike to get me back into riding again. It’s getting cold in Ohio so realistically I have until spring to find a great deal on the perfect bike. I’m trying to learn all the new geometry and tech I can and will buy a bike based on that regardless of the brand. Here’s what I think I’ve learned so far. I want a good condition used HT with good air fork around 68* head angle and short chainstay and I think 27.5+ Tires. I have trek specialized and giant dealers local but really want to find a great used bike but have come across some craigslist scams and the deal that fell through on here. Any recommendations would be appreciated. I’m willing to drive a few hours to test ride used bikes. Prefer not to have a bikes shipped unless it’s basically new and i know it fit me. Thanks


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

My other thought is to get a new front tite and rebuild or replace the shock on my 95 GT Avalanche. Also needs a tune up so looking at some $ just to get an old bike rideable. Not sure if that would be worth it with all the old geometry talk I’ve been reading about.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Not worth it. 
That'll just make your real bike more expensive. 
Your bike has a straight steerer tube and all current forks are tapered. So getting a good fork will be difficult. And you'd need one with dropouts for your current wheel. Current forks take thru-axles.
If you haven't look on Pinkbike Buy/Sell. Do that. Bike Flights ships for a reasonable price.$79 I think.
Also consider 29 with 2.5 or 2.6 rear tire space. Those will also take 27.5+. But 29x2.6 on wide rims gives you Plus compliance and better rollover. Salsa Woodsmoke. You can have two wheelsets down the road.
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/list/?region=3&q=woodsmoke
https://www.rei.com/product/111212/...MI14S_mvT_3QIVwwOGCh1kjgA4EAQYAiABEgKU6_D_BwE
Kona Big Honzo is another bike to look at.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GSR007 said:


> My other thought is to get a new front tite and rebuild or replace the shock on my 95 GT Avalanche. Also needs a tune up so looking at some $ just to get an old bike rideable. Not sure if that would be worth it with all the old geometry talk I've been reading about.


Honestly at this point the only fork that old gt is worth would be a rigid one.

You would have to hit the proverbial jackpot to find an 80mm fork from say the early 2000's in good working order and dirt cheap. I think 05ish is about as late as you can go before high end options started dropping straight steerers. Used low end stuff that's more recent isn't worth your time or money.

Even older non boost 29ers with reasonably generous tire capacity can fit 27.5 x 2.8 tires. 2.8 tires were originally designed to work this way.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

GSR007 said:


> I'm getting back into mountain biking since I have places to ride now. A lot has changed since my '95 GT Avalanche! Looking at a Ghost Kato 6 from REI on clearance and a lightly used Salsa Timberjack SLX. Both are 2018 models. If you need any more info let me know. I appreciate and recommendations even if it's other bikes. Thanks.[/QUOTEyrlu]
> 
> There is a Salsa/Surly Trader group on Facebook. A lot of those listings are also on PinkBike classifieds. Are you familiar with them? This time of year, the 'lightly used' '18's tend to show up. You might also look in stores. Dealers trying to clear out stock happens. I think the Salsa dealer within driving distance (to me) expects the '19's in a couple of weeks.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I’ve been looking on pinknike and BikeExchange but hard for me to know what to look for with used bikes and most listed are no where near me. I have checked the dealers and most left overs are gone or not my size. I have time now since the weather is turning so just waiting for the right bike to come along.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

That is the thing with buying used. It's a lot easier if you are accustomed buying. 

There are a lot of good deals out there for new bikes, and they would be warranted. How much do you want to spend? I know of a few.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

In my experience, looking for a used HT bike that has everything I want is tough. What is your budget for the bike purchase?


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Trying to keep it under $1k. I’m not a serious rider and just want something reliable to ride on trails around me.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

GSR007 said:


> Trying to keep it under $1k. I'm not a serious rider and just want something reliable to ride on trails around me.


Are you set on a hardtail with suspension fork? Or would plus tires with a rigid fork be okay? Costs less, but not good if it won't work for you.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Muirenn said:


> Are you set on a hardtail with suspension fork? Or would plus tires with a rigid fork be okay? Costs less, but not good if it won't work for you.


I was also thinking this. Especially if you are not going to do serious DH, or other terrain like that. I have a rigid 29+ Krampus, and have ridden all over Ohio and Michigan and it has always been just what I needed. I got mine 4 years ago for a great deal as they were moving old stock out of the LBS to make room for the new. I actually lucked out b/c Surly was pushing it's dealers to get rid of gen 1 Krampi for the new version.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Steel may be an option with plus tires if it takes the edge off roots and rocks which I have a lot of. Would plus tires be comparable to an air shock? So many options out there. Would love to fall into a lightly used bike if possible but nervous about buying online sight unseen or ridden. It makes me mad I didn’t get the salsa it was perfect. Thanks for all the input so far.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

GSR007 said:


> Steel may be an option with plus tires if it takes the edge off roots and rocks which I have a lot of. Would plus tires be comparable to an air shock? So many options out there. Would love to fall into a lightly used bike if possible but nervous about buying online sight unseen or ridden. It makes me mad I didn't get the salsa it was perfect. Thanks for all the input so far.


Sounds like you want one with a suspension fork. I'll post links later as i'm At work. I'll also post a good deal on a steel one. But it seems like some of the others will work better. Offhand i'd Say no, but my terrain is different from yours, and I have a fully rigid. I just don't Need suspension where I live.

BTW, are you within driving distance of a Performance Bike? They have the best deals for budget
And quality level.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

GSR007 said:


> Steel may be an option with plus tires if it takes the edge off roots and rocks which I have a lot of. Would plus tires be comparable to an air shock? So many options out there. Would love to fall into a lightly used bike if possible but nervous about buying online sight unseen or ridden. It makes me mad I didn't get the salsa it was perfect. Thanks for all the input so far.


not directly comparable, but still absorb at least 40% of the chatter around where we live.

Growing up, I rode BMX, and rigid MTB when I first got into it, so I learned to use my arms and legs as the shock absorbers. For me, any suspension takes away my communication with the trail. In that light, I feel like I probably ride different than most people younger than me, and that allows me to go with the rigid thing.

I also ride in Central Ohio a lot, so we are on the same kind of terrain - except you are probably more hilly than where I am - but there is no trail around here that I think warrants full suspension for sure. Hardtail yes. It always cracks me up to see guys on $5000 + bikes on our trails....

The other good thing about plus size is it allows you to ride in some terrain you couldn't on regular sized tires, ride later or earlier in the seasons if you want ( I prefer to ride in the fall and winter more than any other time) and ride on regular terrain as well. People will lament about drag, and the tires being slower etc, but if you are not racing, does that all really matter? I ride my Krampus on the paved rec trails with my wife, and it is no big deal. I look at it like it is building my legs up...but I honestly never really worry about it

I am just saying not to count out rigid steel plus for fear of it being a rough ride, unless there is a medical condition (bad back; arthritis etc) that would really make no suspension a bad thing...definitely try to test ride if you can. If you are going to wait out the winter, pop down to C-bus to Baer Wheels or Paradise Garage at some point to look at some options.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

sXeXBMXer said:


> I was also thinking this. Especially if you are not going to do serious DH, or other terrain like that. I have a rigid 29+ Krampus, and have ridden all over Ohio and Michigan and it has always been just what I needed. I got mine 4 years ago for a great deal as they were moving old stock out of the LBS to make room for the new. I actually lucked out b/c Surly was pushing it's dealers to get rid of gen 1 Krampi for the new version.


I didn't see this until just now.

Personally I prefer steel to the point where I have no interest in spending money on suspension. Even if I move to a different part of the country. But I'm coming from road, and have never had that luxury. I grew up taking my Schwinn Le Tour on top of big gravel piles at local construction sites. Didn't occur to me not to.

There are a lot of used Surlys out there. The newer Karate Monkey's take 27.5+ or 29. I used to have a Krampus, and maybe that would be perfect. Huge bottom bracket clearance and 29+ tires. And it tends to be easier than most to find used for a good price.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GSR007 said:


> Steel may be an option with plus tires if it takes the edge off roots and rocks which I have a lot of. Would plus tires be comparable to an air shock? So many options out there. Would love to fall into a lightly used bike if possible but nervous about buying online sight unseen or ridden. It makes me mad I didn't get the salsa it was perfect. Thanks for all the input so far.


Bigger tires aren't a substitute for suspension. But as mentioned before, your trails or riding style may not necessarily require suspension. It just depends.

Bigger tires excel at absorbing small, high frequency bumps like smallish roots and little rocks poking up out of the trail, especially at slow speeds. Suspension doesn't do a very good job absorbing that sort of chattery terrain. Suspension is better for larger bumps/hits that are spaced out more widely. More suspension with larger tires can really result in a buttery, floaty ride quality on smaller bumps (I don't like this feel, necessarily - I like to have some level of feedback from the bike).

The problem with relying on tire compression as "suspension" is that it's totally undamped. You can't control how fast it compresses or rebounds at all. So when speeds get higher, you will start to notice some undesirable characteristics. To some extent, suspension can reduce these undesirable characteristics. The balance of these changes with tire size and speed. If I'm bombing down a really chattery downhill on my Salsa Bucksaw (full suspension fat), the suspension just can't keep up with the bouncy basketball effect from the tires so I have to keep my speed under control. A bike with plus tires could still get extra bouncy under these conditions, but the speed it would take to overwhelm the same suspension system's damping capabilities would be a little higher, since there'd be less bounce effect than the 4" tires I have now.

For hardtails, I'm a huge fan of steel, though some aluminum bikes have very nice ride quality. I'm thinking particularly of the current Santa Cruz Chameleon, for example. Particularly, though, I hate the ride "quality" of cheap aluminum hardtails and aluminum race hardtails. Too stiff and harsh for me, honestly, though for slightly different reasons.

When it comes to looking for used bikes, it can be really worthwhile to allow for the possibility of shipping. Especially if your local area has a smaller selection. My wife has particular trouble finding bikes of any kind because she's small. Her first entry level bike wasn't too bad. That's generally the only thing that shops tend to stock in her size, though. Subsequent bikes have required greater lengths to obtain them. She bought a used mtb (her 2nd mtb) and there was pretty much zero chance she was going to find a used mtb in her size within 100mi of where we lived. So she paid $100 to have it shipped. She wanted a bike for pavement, greenways, gravel, and possibly to try out cyclocross. NOBODY stocks anything like that in her size, so again, she had to order one (a closeout Diamondback via Amazon). She wanted a longer travel full suspension for her 3rd mtb. Changes in frame geo as compared to her 2nd mtb meant she needed to drop down in size, which made it even harder. We drove several hundred miles to attend a demo event where the model/size she was interested in would be available. No used ones available that she could find, so had to order new from a lbs, which she did just a few days after verifying fit at the demo.

The more restrictions you have on your search (like price, fit, style, etc), the harder it's going to make your search. If you actually want to have a bike to ride, you're going to need to reduce as many of those restrictions as possible. Call it casting a bigger net, so to speak.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Closet performance bike is 1.5 hours away from me. Thanks for recommendation. I’ll try to make it over there sometime.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Found this one close to me. Any thoughts? 5 years old. Not that familiar with some the components. Thanks

https://m.pinkbike.com/buysell/2336622/


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Take a road trip and get this one instead.
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2448016/


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

eb1888 said:


> Take a road trip and get this one instead.
> https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2448016/


Ill second this over the bike previously posted.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dont be afraid of shipping either IMO.

here are a couple more that are worth a look (I personally think you will be at home on a large, not a medium) Im similar height/inseam specs to you and I bought a medium first and found it much too cramped. Went to a large and I'm much happier with the reach in the 460mm area.

https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2455628/

https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2455555/


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

eb1888 said:


> Take a road trip and get this one instead.
> https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2448016/


I like this one as well.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Nice options for sure. The trek I can test locally. Those road trips are actually about 5.5 hours one way. Looking at fitting charts I seem to fall into M and not L so why do you recommend a L? Seems like most LBS try to get me into L also and they just seem big from what I used to.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Also how can I determine a fair price? I have been looking at the blue book value guide.

https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/SearchListingDetail.aspx?id=3075635


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

GSR007 said:


> Nice options for sure. The trek I can test locally. Those road trips are actually about 5.5 hours one way. Looking at fitting charts I seem to fall into M and not L so why do you recommend a L? Seems like most LBS try to get me into L also and they just seem big from what I used to.


Because ANY chart is going to put you at the top end of the medium, bottom end of the large category. I would MUCH rather run a shorter stem (if needed) then some stupid long 80-100mm long stem to try and stretch out the reach on a cramped feeling cockpit. Im 5'11, 31" inseam. Taller torso (as are you) and a medium felt great the first few rides. As I got more comfortable on the bike, it was clear that it was too cramped. Went to a large and immediately loved it!

You can get whatever feels best to you, but if I had to guess you will end up wishing you were on a bike with a bit more reach if you snag a medium.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

GSR007 said:


> Also how can I determine a fair price? I have been looking at the blue book value guide.
> 
> https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/SearchListingDetail.aspx?id=3075635


This works, but most of us here have enough experience that we can look at components/frame manufacturer and gauge a decent deal when we see one.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Salsa site says 5’8” to 6’ is M so that was what I was going by. Trek I’m in between for sure.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

So why is the Roscoe 8 a good deal is msrp was $1260 and was probably discounted when purchased. Based on valueguide should be around $800 in excellent condition. I just don’t know components enough to know a good or bad deal. Thanks


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

If you're more than 5'10" you're gonna want a large. Just trying to help.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

My size is part of the issue with buying online. I am 5’10”. I’m in between M and L and can’t test most of the bikes. I could probably ride either but not sure. Thanks for everyone’s input. I’ll try to hit LBS soon.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Your height is on the cusp of M - L for most brands, so always a challenge. The trick is that within the same height someone might have a longer torso, while another would have longer legs which could sway their frame size choice either way.

It isn't the end of the world to adjust fit a bit via saddle, stem, etc, but always better to get a decent sense of the right-sized frame with a test in person. That's the one real trick around buying online if you're unsure.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I just texted my friend Bryan and asked how tall he is. If I looked at him for the first time, I'd think he should be on a medium. He bought a Specialized Rockhopper for a first mtb in 2010 and bought a large. He tore it up on that bike. Then he bought a large 907 and rides it perfectly. Large Surly Krampus, rides it like it sprouted out of his butt. And last but not least, he just bought another large 907. 
He just replied to me. He's 5'9 1/2". 
I agree with what R Pierce said. I'd rather have the large with the short stem than a medium with a long stem.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Asking is one price. Offer a bit less. It's end of season and it'll sit until spring. He may want the money now.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GSR007 said:


> Salsa site says 5'8" to 6' is M so that was what I was going by. Trek I'm in between for sure.


Ignore manufacturer size charts. Entirely. They absolutely suck and do not accurately reflect what most people should be riding. IMO, Salsa's size chart is particularly bad. It always recommends bikes too small. I said this already, but Salsa's size chart thinks I'm at the exact cutoff between a small and a medium and that's horseshit. There's no way I could EVER ride a small. It's not even remotely a question. The real question is whether I should be on a medium or a large, and I'm 5'8. On some bikes, I DO fit better on a large, while others work better in a medium.

Try these fit calculators. I have been using them for years for both road bikes and mtbs, and they've never steered me wrong. They also helped figure out how to address my wife's fit issues by helping us cut the frame size out of the equation, and look more at geometry numbers, which matter more for sizing.

http://www.wrenchscience.com/
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/Store/catalog/fitCalculatorBike.jsp

I'll buck the trend a bit and say that I like that Jamis. The one thing I DON'T like about it is that the head tube on it prevents you from running a tapered fork. But, it's got the nicest wheels BY FAR. The Roscoe is a perfectly serviceable bike, but I think you have more wiggle room on the pricing of the Jamis because it has some older standards. Plus, the Jamis has an extra fork, and doing some looking, it looks like that White Brothers fork was made by MRP, which is a solid company that makes good stuff. I'm not really sure that the xfusion that's on it is an upgrade as the seller claims. I'll bet that that the older fork just needs a good service. At the very least, you've got an extra fork to sell to offset the cost some.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

R_Pierce said:


> Dont be afraid of shipping either IMO.
> 
> here are a couple more that are worth a look (I personally think you will be at home on a large, not a medium) Im similar height/inseam specs to you and I bought a medium first and found it much too cramped. Went to a large and I'm much happier with the reach in the 460mm area.


This is why I think Performance Bike is a good idea. I'm 170 cm, so 5'6.75, and I use a medium. Could probably get away with a large, but it wouldn't handle as well. My inseam is 33.3 and I have long arms, so sizing is hard for me to compare with others. I tend to think I have to size by arm and leg length with mountainbikes. Though it's different with road bikes. But not everyone is like that.

You could decide not to go with a Performance bike, but if you find one that fits well, the geometry can be used to determine whether you need a medium or large used bike. And they have a lot of $1K bikes with deore drivetrains and RockShox Silver forks, which would be a great deal and very functional.

Performance Bike has a Marin bike called Pine Mountain; it's a fully rigid steel bike with 27.5+ tires, hydraulic brakes, and deore drivetrain for $699.00 It's available sizes XS - XXL. The downside is that it is quick-release instead of thru-axel. But most of the older MB will be quick release. It's a prime deal. And you could get it and use forever and still justify something fancier if you decide.

Ah, looks like it's $799.00 now. I think it was $699.00 earlier this week. Or I just forgot. Their prices move up and down. It's pretty close to my Karate Monkey. 

Ah, looks like it's $799.00 now. I think it was $699.00 earlier this week. Or I just forgot. Their prices move up and down. It's pretty close to my Karate Monkey. 

I also like this Marin Hardtain
https://www.performancebike.com/shop/bikes-frames/mountain-bikes/cross-country-mountain-bikes/marin-nail-trail-6-275-quot%3B-mountain-bike-2018-31-8461

And this Fuji
https://www.performancebike.com/sho...s/fuji-tahoe-29-15-mountain-bike-2017-31-6316


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

And this one. $799.00 RockShox Silver. Deore. Hydraulic. Nice.

https://www.performancebike.com/sho...eting-_-april2016&CA_6C15C=400006950000186607


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Found a 2017 Giant Fathom 2 an hour away from me. Says it’s been hardly ridden. Asking $550. Deal or not? Not high end but seems like it might work for my off road riding. At least I could test ride it and see if it fits. What do you think?

It’s on Craigslist but he sent me pics. I’ve run across 2 scams so far so little cautious. 

Here’s the ad:
Giant Fathom barely ridden!! - $550
bicycle type: mountain 
brake type: disc (hydraulic) 
condition: like new 
cryptocurrency ok 
frame size: Large 
make / manufacturer: Giant 
model name / number: Fathom 
suspension: suspension fork (hardtail) 
wheel size: 27.5 in 
Large frame only ridden for half a summer and is in perfect shape 

Hydraulic lift seat, disc brakes front and rear, adjustable front shocks for your weight 

Bike brand new is $1100 
550 obo


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

This is a pretty decent deal on a HT that checks almost all the boxes, the brakes aren't the greatest, but they will suffice. It is a plus though. https://www.rei.com/product/124759/cannondale-cujo-2-275-bike-2018


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Thanks but the Cujo has only S or XL sizes left.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Fathom 2 is not Boost and has lower level components including quick release hubs 2 generations old.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

eb1888 said:


> Fathom 2 is not Boost and has lower level components including quick release hubs 2 generations old.


because those are things that everyone needs on a beginner-intermediate bike. How did those of us riding in the 90's survive?


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Sorry for my ignorance but not sure what boost is and why is quick release bad? I’ve been away a looong time apparently!! Lol


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Boost is the new hub/dropout and associated (cassette, crank, chainring spacing) standard. It will theoretically make it easier to buy wheels in the future. It is 15 x 110mm; Rear: 12mm x 148mm, where the first number is the axle diameter and the second is the width. "Standard" is 15x100mm /12x142mm.

Quick release uses a small "nub" and skewer to secure the wheel in the dropout. It is not as robust/rigid as a through axle, which is larger diameter and threaded into the dropout and actually provides an axle that goes from "side to side" between the dropouts. Quick release skewers can come undone, too.

9mm Quick Release is the standard more or less in road bikes. Whether it's really needed for a beginner type or a hardtail is debatable. But it will severely limit your options if you wanted to upgrade your wheels.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Thanks for the explanation. Was there a particular year they started with boost that I can start my search at? I’m probably it going to do a lot of up grading so not sure that is a huge factor for me but would help with re sale if it doesn’t work out.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

GSR007 said:


> Thanks for the explanation. Was there a particular year they started with boost that I can start my search at? I'm probably it going to do a lot of up grading so not sure that is a huge factor for me but would help with re sale if it doesn't work out.


Well, for lower-end bikes, boost and even "standard" spacing and through axle hasn't "trickled down" from the higher end bikes, so it's hard to tell. It's just something to look for.

You are probably right to think you won't want to upgrade much, and I don't think resale value is really much of a consideration.

Honestly, if you can find something in your budget with an air fork and hydraulic brakes, you can ignore things like boost. If your budget gets much over $1000, though, these are things your bike should probably have.

You flat won't find all of these things in a bike under $750 new, unless you really score a deal. Between $850-1000, there's probably enough selection to worry a little about it. Over $1000, starting to be mandatory.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Here's the fundamental dilemma. A lot of us starting out were unsure whether we would really enjoy mountain biking or stick with it, and thus were reluctant to spend more than a few hundred bucks on a bike.

You, on the other hand, have some experience with it, and presumably have some idea whether you will enjoy it or stick with it. In which case, it is probably advisable, if your budget allows, to invest around $1000 in a hardtail.

What you are getting at that level is an air fork, which just functions a lot better than a coil fork, period, and will make your riding more enjoyable. Hydraulic brakes stop you the same as mechanical, but the difference, even with cheap hydraulic brakes, is immediately noticeable. Much greater stopping power. Along with those things come better drivetrains, wheels (with Boost or at least thru axle), and other components, none of which likely will make an immediately perceptible difference, but are better over the long haul, probably.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Wasn’t expecting to get all of that new under $1000. Trying to get a deal on a lightly used if possible but hard to find in my area. It’s end of good weather here so lots of time to wait for the right bike to show up.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Yeah, sorry, you hadn't specified a budget, didn't mean to condescend. Things, and bikes especially, have gotten quite expensive. Seems to be something of a sellers market.

Used can be harder to evaluate when you don't know all these things, but if you are just looking at hardtails, that simplifies it somewhat, and the above is still applicable.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Ok so here’s what I have learned and think I need. Air fork, boost, hydraulic brakes, tubeless ready, 1x11 if possible or 2x10 would work I think. Dropper post or at least dropper ready. No press fit bottom bracket. Find right size and lightest frame in my budget and go ride. Sound reasonable? Did I forget anything important? I can upgrade tires and pedals later if needed.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

GSR007 said:


> Ok so here's what I have learned and think I need. Air fork, boost, hydraulic brakes, tubeless ready, 1x11 if possible or 2x10 would work I think. Dropper post or at least dropper ready. No press fit bottom bracket. Find right size and lightest frame in my budget and go ride. Sound reasonable? Did I forget anything important? I can upgrade tires and pedals later if needed.


That's pretty ideal. Can probably dispense with Boost (but still probably want through axle as opposed to QR). Here is your most likely dropper if you don't find one. Brand-X Ascend 120mm & 150mm Dropper Seatpost | Chain Reaction Cycles

What that means is 31.6mm or 30.9mm seat tube diameter, with about 4"+ of straight seat tube to insert/secure the dropper post.

Forget weight.

That Kato in your OP isn't bad at all for the money.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GSR007 said:


> Ok so here's what I have learned and think I need. Air fork, boost, hydraulic brakes, tubeless ready, 1x11 if possible or 2x10 would work I think. Dropper post or at least dropper ready. No press fit bottom bracket. Find right size and lightest frame in my budget and go ride. Sound reasonable? Did I forget anything important? I can upgrade tires and pedals later if needed.


I find that a thru axle on the fork matters a lot more than it does on the rear end of a hardtail. Thru axle doesn't get super important on the back until you get into a full suspension.

Officially "tubeless ready" wheels, I think, will be tougher to find in your budget. Not that regular rims won't work, but getting them set up will be fussier.

I wouldn't worry about drivetrain or brakes too much if the bike checks other important boxes. Parts can be changed.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

The co-op DRT 2.1 is priced down to around $1200 right now. That bike has a great build spec for that price IMO, and if you're an REI member, you'll get some of it back. if you don't find something used before Christmas, you could ask everybody for REI gift cards for Christmas and buy this new for close to your budget. Also, this bike could go even lower on Black Friday or cyber Monday. Just an option to think about.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

The Marin Nail Trail and Fuji listed above at Performance are arguably better deals at 999.

If you join their club ($30), you'll get 10% back (net $70), which will get you some pedals probably. If you hold out to a triple points, it makes it very worthwhile. And you can order online.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

If I don’t find one this week I will just wait for good sales around the holidays. I should have a better idea of exacly what I want by then. Thanks for everyone’s input. I’ve learned a lot so far.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Found a Rocky Mountain growler 50 for $900 lightly used


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

Is it this one? The 2018?

http://www.bikes.com/en/bikes/growler/2018

Looks like it has everything. If it's not the '18, double check the specs, carefully. They appear to change them quite a lot from year to year.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Yes that’s the one. I don’t know much about those bikes and it would be shipped to me so no chance to ride it. It has SRAM NX and recon gold shock.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

GSR007 said:


> Yes that's the one. I don't know much about those bikes and it would be shipped to me so no chance to ride it. It has SRAM NX and recon gold shock.


 I see that. Does the $900.00 include shipping? Is it a private seller?


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Private seller. Not sure about shipping? Didn’t say in the ad.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

Probably not. Shipping is usually having the bike professionally packaged, plus shipping. IME that is around $160.09



GSR007 said:


> Private seller. Not sure about shipping? Didn't say in the ad.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Muirenn said:


> Probably not. Shipping is usually having the bike professionally packaged, plus shipping. IME that is around $160.09


That's about right. If the seller packs themselves, I would expect shipping to cost about $100. MIGHT be able to get it for less, depending on weight, how far shipping is, and which carrier is used, but I don't ever assume shipping will be less. Most shops I've seen will pack a bike for about $60 give or take.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Here's a decent starter bike and the price is def right. https://www.jensonusa.com/Orbea-MX-29-10-18-Bike-2018

Orbea says you are a "smedium." It is QR and 2x, but checks the other boxes nicely.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

TwiceHorn said:


> Here's a decent starter bike and the price is def right. https://www.jensonusa.com/Orbea-MX-29-10-18-Bike-2018
> 
> Orbea says you are a "smedium." It is QR and 2x, but checks the other boxes nicely.


I saw that bike, and the geometry looks problematic. Very short reach. 381 mm on a medium. For comparison, my Karate Monkey medium, which is typical, is around 416 (I think). I'd give it a pass. But it is nice, otherwise.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Agree to pass on the Orbea. Don’t know much about them and size would be an issue. Thanks


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## TimberjackJG (Jul 15, 2018)

Here's last year's Timberjack online, which I actually like better than this year's quite a bit.

Salsa Timberjack NX1 27.5+ Bike LG White - LoneStar eBikes


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Thanks for the link. What’s better about last year be this year? I’m just not sure on size for the salsa? Chart says M but everyone here says L. Would need to ride one vs buy online.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I test ride the Giant Fathom 2 in L last night and it seems to fit me pretty good. The issue was the brakes squealed a little and the front crank was loose. He knocked the price down to $450 but I don’t know how much I would have to put into it to get it working correctly. It could be very minor since it has sat for a year or could run into issues so I had to pass. Otherwise it was a nice bike.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

GSR007 said:


> I test ride the Giant Fathom 2 in L last night and it seems to fit me pretty good. The issue was the brakes squealed a little and the front crank was loose. He knocked the price down to $450 but I don't know how much I would have to put into it to get it working correctly. It could be very minor since it has sat for a year or could run into issues so I had to pass. Otherwise it was a nice bike.


I was actually going to mention Giant as a possibility.

Do you know what size it was? (For comparison's sake).


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

By the way, I'd like to point out that this is a 'banging' good bike. But it's a little more than you want to spend. $1299.00. But it's worth the money all around.

https://www.performancebike.com/shop/fuji-bighorn-15-275-mountain-bike-2018-31-8706

And this one is close. Components are not quite as good, but still solid. And it doens't have plus sized tires. It's $999.00

https://www.performancebike.com/sho...-trail-6-275-quot;-mountain-bike-2018-31-8461

Here is a point. Giant is already increasing the '19's in anticipation of the Tariffs. And Performance has a blog that points out that the tariffs are going to hit the lower end bikes disproportionately simply because those buying in that bracket tend to have less money, so the price bump makes up a larger portion of their income. (Though I suppose I have no idea if that will effect you). Still.

If you call ahead to Performance and speak with them about what you are interested in, and possible sizing issues, they will probably make sure the bikes are there to test. Edit: I realize the Fuji isn't available in a large online, but that doesn't mean there isn't one sitting in a Performance store somewhere that they could have brought to the store for you to test. They have a lot of bikes. And they may suggest something else with similar components.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

The Giant I rode was size large and felt good to me. I was a little surprised. I thought I would have to reach a little but not bad at all. Just had some issues I was concerned about and I don’t have the tools or knowledge yet to feel comfortable buying it and fixing myself.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

A larger bike has a higher stack (usually), so you sit up more than on a smaller bike. The reach may be longer, but not always, or the difference may be slight. It's usually a higher stack that makes a bike comfortable (to me). Not so much a shorter reach, though the two things affect one another.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I compared the specs of the large Giant and medium Salsa. Stack is 24.1” on both. Reach is 16.7” on Salsa and 17.5” on Giant. Standover was 29.2” Salsa and 29.6” Giant. Wheelbase was about 1” longer for Giant. To me they are basically the same.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

I was in the boat in august: looking for a decent used hardtail to get riding.

first budget: $600 but hits for used bikes in the area were sparse. and good ones were snatched up before I would even contact the seller.

second budget: ~$1000 after reading more about the tech and geometry upped to the budget and criteria to include new bikes since 2018 models were going on sale

went to LBS to look at: 2018 trek roscoe 7, 2018 giant fathom 2, 2017 cannon dale cujo 2, and 2018 salsa timberjack nx1 (all 27.5 or 27.5+)

most of them (except the 2017 cujo) come to around $1100-$1200, and after seeing the bike's bigger brothers in store and learning that these lower end models come with a lot of compromises (axles for example), I decided that a few more hundred bucks for the next model up would be well spent as I would not be able to get those upgrades afterwards for the same price difference.

third budget: $~1500

2018 giant fathom 1
2019 giant fathom 2 
2019 trek roscoe 8
ultimately I chose the 2018 salsa timberjack gx1 with the roscoe 8 a close second.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Unfortunately I’m in the same boat and will probably re visit this in the spring since my plan to find a great deal on a bike late in the year has not planned out. Those are pretty much the same bikes I am looking at. The used fathom 2 I rode had a loose BB and breaks were iffy so I passed. I don’t think I’d be happy with lower end since I don’t have tools to work on them. Just want a reliable bike to ride. So is the salsa better than the treks in your opinion? Anything specifically? If I buy new it makes sense to get a trek for frame warranty but that’s the only positive for buying new. Plus I have a local trek dealer and salsa dealer is 1.5 hours away. Thanks


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> Unfortunately I'm in the same boat and will probably re visit this in the spring since my plan to find a great deal on a bike late in the year has not planned out. Those are pretty much the same bikes I am looking at. The used fathom 2 I rode had a loose BB and breaks were iffy so I passed. I don't think I'd be happy with lower end since I don't have tools to work on them. Just want a reliable bike to ride. So is the salsa better than the treks in your opinion? Anything specifically? If I buy new it makes sense to get a trek for frame warranty but that's the only positive for buying new. Plus I have a local trek dealer and salsa dealer is 1.5 hours away. Thanks


Honestly, when I was faced with the decision between the timberjack and the roscoe, I was pretty stumped.

On paper, the two were pretty similar. If one has a plus, the other one would make up with a plus in another category.

So at the end of the day, I chose based on feel. On what I felt when I rode them at the LBS. A few quantifiable things that made me choose the timberjack were:

recon forks instead of judy
internally routed brake and shifter cables
148 rear with the alternator


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

tweeder82o said:


> I was in the boat in august: looking for a decent used hardtail to get riding.
> 
> first budget: $600 but hits for used bikes in the area were sparse. and good ones were snatched up before I would even contact the seller.
> 
> ...





GSR007 said:


> Unfortunately I'm in the same boat and will probably re visit this in the spring since my plan to find a great deal on a bike late in the year has not planned out. Those are pretty much the same bikes I am looking at. The used fathom 2 I rode had a loose BB and breaks were iffy so I passed. I don't think I'd be happy with lower end since I don't have tools to work on them. Just want a reliable bike to ride. So is the salsa better than the treks in your opinion? Anything specifically? If I buy new it makes sense to get a trek for frame warranty but that's the only positive for buying new. Plus I have a local trek dealer and salsa dealer is 1.5 hours away. Thanks


I think after researching, we find out in the bike world that "you get what you pay for"...meaning that the definition of a good deal needs to be rethought of as a good investment...in our time ,safety, and money. An inexpensive bike is not usually "a good deal" because of the risk of wear that the activity does to the equipment.

when i was searching for bikes, I also had to up my budget if I wanted a bike that was worth my money and time investment. i was also in the $600 range at first...but after talking to people, reading this forum and surfing the web, I found pout that at that price point, I would have had to spend at least as much within the first year of riding to allow the bike to keep up with my skill development and how I wanted to use it...so it would have been a total of circa $1200 anyways for a bike with a less capable skeleton

I am glad i waited, upped my budget, and also took some time to figure out how I would actually use my bike. The "deal" I got was a bike that will last me for years, and . is very versatile.

I did luck into getting it (Surly Krampus v 1) in the last month before they discontinued that version and the dealers were being told to move product...I got it for quite a bit less than I would have a month earlier, so that was a deal that I lucked into, but it did not seal my decision to get the bike

I tell my students the same thing about musical instruments when they are starting..something that seems like a "great deal" will usually be a "great deal of frustration"...
'


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Agree with everything you say. Seems like we are on the same path I just got started a little later. I’ll try to snag a salsa or work with my local trek dealer over the winter to see what they can come up with. Those sound like the best options at this point. Thanks


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

tweeder82o said:


> I was in the boat in august: looking for a decent used hardtail to get riding.
> 
> first budget: $600 but hits for used bikes in the area were sparse. and good ones were snatched up before I would even contact the seller.
> 
> ...





GSR007 said:


> Agree with everything you say. Seems like we are on the same path I just got started a little later. I'll try to snag a salsa or work with my local trek dealer over the winter to see what they can come up with. Those sound like the best options at this point. Thanks


yep...and the waiting is the hardest part...I searched for 2-3 years while saving up money. Rode my old 94 Trek in the meantime, but it was nit the same.

The waiting makes New Bike Day that much sweeter though!!


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> Agree with everything you say. Seems like we are on the same path I just got started a little later. I'll try to snag a salsa or work with my local trek dealer over the winter to see what they can come up with. Those sound like the best options at this point. Thanks


I don't know the exact details and how and when and if it will affect the industry, but I hope that new tariffs won't have an effect on the price of your new bike


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Thats part of the reason I’m looking now because of the tariff. I don’t think anyone really knows but I doubt they will get cheaper! Lol


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GSR007 said:


> I compared the specs of the large Giant and medium Salsa. Stack is 24.1" on both. Reach is 16.7" on Salsa and 17.5" on Giant. Standover was 29.2" Salsa and 29.6" Giant. Wheelbase was about 1" longer for Giant. To me they are basically the same.


Those numbers are not "basically the same"


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

To a novice like me they are pretty close. So how much different are they and would I notice riding both of them? I’m learning so much!! Been gone too long.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GSR007 said:


> To a novice like me they are pretty close. So how much different are they and would I notice riding both of them? I'm learning so much!! Been gone too long.


You need to look at everything. It's a full picture, not just a few isolated numbers, for one.

Look at the differences between sizes on the same model. JUST on the reach numbers, the difference between sizes can be anywhere from 15-25mm or so. The difference in reach between these two bikes is 0.8 inches (or about 20mm). That equates to a full size difference. You absolutely should notice that. To be fair, the gap between med and lg in the salsa is larger than it is on the giant (425mm to 452mm or 27mm vs. 428mm to 444mm or 16mm), which may ALSO be noticeable, but the difference between the larges in the two bikes (452mm vs. 444mm, for a difference of 8mm) is much smaller than the differences between sizes, and is easily accommodated with stem size differences if you do notice it.

The fractions of a degree difference in HTA/STA, you probably won't notice (though someone with more experience might).

And those aren't the only numbers, either. ALL of the dimensions work together to affect how the whole bike feels when you ride it.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Wow thanks for the info. Someone needs to create an online fitting tool that spits out bikes for you. That would make it easier to buy online and know what pure getting. Maybe this has already been done? I really appreciate all the input. Not sure if I’m more informed or more confused at this point? Probably a little of both. Sounds like a demo day is on the horizon for me this spring.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GSR007 said:


> Wow thanks for the info. Someone needs to create an online fitting tool that spits out bikes for you. That would make it easier to buy online and know what pure getting. Maybe this has already been done? I really appreciate all the input. Not sure if I'm more informed or more confused at this point? Probably a little of both. Sounds like a demo day is on the horizon for me this spring.


http://www.wrenchscience.com/
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/Store/catalog/fitCalculatorBike.jsp

They don't spit out actual bikes, but they do distill fit numbers down into something you can use when shopping.

Looking at too many numbers before you have any sort of expectation about "feel" is going to be confusing. You've gotta figure out what feels good and what doesn't first. Then you can compare those feelings to the numbers and start to figure out what works and what doesn't. Figuring out "feel" is something you can do in an afternoon riding a few bikes. Translating that to numbers takes longer. And when geometries change (or you're looking at a different class of bikes with different geometry), then the way you evaluate the numbers will have to change, because different geometry is going to affect the way the bike handles. It's entirely likely that YOU are going to have to change your technique with a new geometry, too.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Found this one locally for $750. Thoughts?

2014 Specialized Stumpjumper EVO HT 29er
Size - 17.5
1 x 10 setup

SRAM X Components
FOX Float CTD Evolution 29 Fork
Stock wheels setup Tubeless

Upgrades include: 
brakes to Shimano SLX/XT IceTech Rotors
stem/seatpost to Syntace F109 stem and 0 offset carbon Specialized FACT seatpost

Super light and fun to ride. Normal wear and tear. Top tub has two scratches from a bike rubbing on it during transport. Only cosmetic.

Specific stock details can be found at...
https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/Bikes,3/Specialized/Stumpjumper-EVO-HT,13455


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Is this Fuji at performance bike a deal?

https://www.performancebike.com/sho...e/fuji-tahoe-29-15-mountain-bike-2017-31-6316


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

GSR007 said:


> Is this Fuji at performance bike a deal?
> 
> https://www.performancebike.com/sho...e/fuji-tahoe-29-15-mountain-bike-2017-31-6316


I would say yes.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Looks like the Fuji is sold out in my size. The search continues. Found a Farley 6 nearby also. Like cool but not sure a fat bike is what I want. Probably a plus bike would be better but it looks like fun.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> Unfortunately I'm in the same boat and will probably re visit this in the spring since my plan to find a great deal on a bike late in the year has not planned out. Those are pretty much the same bikes I am looking at. The used fathom 2 I rode had a loose BB and breaks were iffy so I passed. I don't think I'd be happy with lower end since I don't have tools to work on them. Just want a reliable bike to ride. *So is the salsa better than the treks in your opinion? Anything specifically?* If I buy new it makes sense to get a trek for frame warranty but that's the only positive for buying new. Plus I have a local trek dealer and salsa dealer is 1.5 hours away. Thanks


When I was looking for a bike, the choice was down to between the Salsa Timberjack GX1 and the Trek Roscoe 8. Both bikes at the local dealers were roughly the same price point. I rode both, and being a bigger, heavier guy, the Timberjack just felt like a tank compared to the Roscoe 8. I also thought the fork on the TJ was better, and liked the idea of having a 12mm through axle with boost spacing on the TJ (the Roscoe 8 had the 9mm x 141mm boost rear hub). Being over 200 lbs, the stouter rear hub seemed like a better option since I like to hammer downhills and jump something every chance I get. I also liked that with the TJ, I have the option of trying 29" wheels if I want in the future without having to buy a new bike or any new parts to make the new wheel fit. I'd basically just have to get a new wheelset with the correct sized hubs and tires.

If you can find a leftover 2018 Timberjack GX1, it would probably be a sweet deal since the 2019's are coming soon and they're more expensive. The only thing I've upgraded on mine were the brakes, as the SRAM level brakes that came on the bike are far superior to Shimano XT's.

The 2019 Timberjack SLX is a pretty sweet bike as well, with good components and a dropper post, but it's about $150 more expensive at pre-tax retail than I paid out the door for my GX1.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Thanks the Timberjack is my first choice. Looking for used or left over 2018 but hard to find. Good to hear it’s a good solid bike!


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

GSR007 said:


> Thanks the Timberjack is my first choice. Looking for used or left over 2018 but hard to find. Good to hear it's a good solid bike!


It seems that your heart has been set on the Timberjack since the start. I would make that bike your personal goal and not look at anything else


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> Thanks the Timberjack is my first choice. Looking for used or left over 2018 but hard to find. Good to hear it's a good solid bike!


I see a large in pittsburgh, drive-able for you. otherwise you'd have to get one shipped.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

What shop in Pittsburgh?


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> What shop in Pittsburgh?











this

or you can use the salsa website to find any shop and see about getting it shipped


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Thanks I’ll try to check it out.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Thanks to everyone’s input and help. I was able to purchase a like new Timberjack slx tonight locally. Got very lucky. Can’t wait to ride it!! Thanks


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

GSR007 said:


> Thanks to everyone's input and help. I was able to purchase a like new Timberjack slx tonight locally. Got very lucky. Can't wait to ride it!! Thanks


Oh nice! Post pics when you get a chance. Did you go with large of medium?


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

It’s a medium. I can’t figure out how to post pics on here through my phone. I’ll work on it.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

GSR007 said:


> It's a medium. I can't figure out how to post pics on here through my phone. I'll work on it.


Congrats!

Download Tapatalk easy to post pix.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Congrats, that's a nice bike!


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> It's a medium. I can't figure out how to post pics on here through my phone. I'll work on it.


can't wait to see it


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

SWEET!!!! and just in time for the best riding season!! 

Given where you live in the state, you have some decent options for fall/winter riding if you want!!


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> Thanks to everyone's input and help. I was able to purchase a like new Timberjack slx tonight locally. Got very lucky. Can't wait to ride it!! Thanks


Nice!!! That'll be a great bike to get started on, and keep for life if you take care of it.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Harold said:


> http://www.wrenchscience.com/
> http://www.competitivecyclist.com/Store/catalog/fitCalculatorBike.jsp
> 
> They don't spit out actual bikes, but they do distill fit numbers down into something you can use when shopping.


I have used the Competitive Cyclist calculator and I think the approach is quite a bit dated. it would be a good way to fit a hybrid but not a modern mountain bike. in fact, I find that most fit schemes are based on making a bike that fits well when sitting upright and pedaling a smooth surface in a straight line. mountain biking is not like that at all.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

GSR007 said:


> Wow thanks for the info. Someone needs to create an online fitting tool that spits out bikes for you. That would make it easier to buy online and know what pure getting. Maybe this has already been done? I really appreciate all the input. Not sure if I'm more informed or more confused at this point? Probably a little of both. Sounds like a demo day is on the horizon for me this spring.


The fitting system on Leelikesbikes.com is the only online _mountain bike_ fitting system I have found that is of any use. you have to pay for it, but the gigantic encyclopedia of riding advice, videos, and the fit calculator are worth it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> I have used the Competitive Cyclist calculator and I think the approach is quite a bit dated. it would be a good way to fit a hybrid but not a modern mountain bike. in fact, I find that most fit schemes are based on making a bike that fits well when sitting upright and pedaling a smooth surface in a straight line. mountain biking is not like that at all.


I don't think so. Neither is useful for all setup dimensions, but for getting a frame size, they have served quite well for me.

I have not used llb's version, so I do not know how they differ from his. Nor did I know he offered one. Maybe his IS better for mtb stuff for all I know.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

most bike fit calculations are based on a static, seated position. this means almost nothing on a mountain bike. Competitive, Fit Kit, and the the BG Fit (which I foolishly paid for) measures your fit this way.

Lee's approach is to measure from the the bottom bracket to the grips. it's the hypotenuse of the measurements that make up the _effective reach_ and _effective stack_ (I might have coined that term, actually) of the bike, which accounts for the stem and handlebar in addition to frame measurements. that's the most important measurement on a mountain bike because it's 99% of how you manipulate the bike over terrain. you get that measurement right for your riding style, proportions, and terrain, and _then_ set the saddle position for comfort and pedaling efficiency. if you can't do that with a given bike, you should ride a different bike with different seat tube angle or different reach and stack dimensions.

Lee's calculator helps you find a good BB-grip distance based on your proportions and riding style, then takes into account reach, stack, head tube angle, crank arm length, pedal thickness, spacer and stem height, and handlebar setback (horizontal distance from the handlebar center to the grips) and shows you how to make your bike fit as close to that number as possible.

in my experience, the LLB calculator will suggest a more compact fit than what's in the current trend. my medium Jabberwocky has fairly long reach (or did when it first came out), so I am running a slammed 50mm stem with a low-rise bar that has a lot of backsweep. it makes for a compact fit that seems small at first, but seems to afford me a ton of dynamic control on the bike rather than a stretched-out lazy point-and-shoot approach to riding.



> Q: Shouldn't we be measuring bikes in a different way? For instance from pedals to grips?
> 
> A: Thats how Sam Hill measures his bike, he gets on any bike, no point telling him any numbers, he just gets a tape measure and measures feet to bars, and if it makes sense, then he's happy, and away he goes. I do think that's the only true measurement you can work off.
> 
> ...


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## blundar (Jan 18, 2013)

I have a Salsa Spearfish 3, and I am very impressed with how great the bike is. I like to go a bit down on bike sizes. I am 5'9" and I ride a size small.

I would suggest upping your budget a bit and going for the Timberjack NX Eagle 29. Even though these are 29er bikes, Salsa does an outstanding job of dialing in their geometry with really short chainstays and fairly slack 67.4 degree headtube angle. For a hardtail having chunky 29x2.6 gives you amazing extra cushion in the back. The front suspension fork in the front at 130mm is no slouch either.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Thanks for the suggestion but I was able to grab a lightly used 2018 Slasa TJ SLX a few days ago. Just need to find better grips and trails to ride on. Thanks everyone.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

GSR007 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion but I was able to grab a lightly used 2018 Slasa TJ SLX a few days ago. Just need to find better grips and trails to ride on. Thanks everyone.


ODI Rogue grips! I love mine!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Rebuttal! Chromag grips 


Battery said:


> ODI Rogue grips! I love mine!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## blundar (Jan 18, 2013)

GSR007 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion but I was able to grab a lightly used 2018 Slasa TJ SLX a few days ago. Just need to find better grips and trails to ride on. Thanks everyone.


Congratulations on such an awesome purchase! Salsa is really putting out some awesome bikes now-a-days. I am sure that you will thoroughly enjoy this bike.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> most bike fit calculations are based on a static, seated position. this means almost nothing on a mountain bike. Competitive, Fit Kit, and the the BG Fit (which I foolishly paid for) measures your fit this way.
> 
> Lee's approach is to measure from the the bottom bracket to the grips. it's the hypotenuse of the measurements that make up the _effective reach_ and _effective stack_ (I might have coined that term, actually) of the bike, which accounts for the stem and handlebar in addition to frame measurements. that's the most important measurement on a mountain bike because it's 99% of how you manipulate the bike over terrain. you get that measurement right for your riding style, proportions, and terrain, and _then_ set the saddle position for comfort and pedaling efficiency. if you can't do that with a given bike, you should ride a different bike with different seat tube angle or different reach and stack dimensions.
> 
> ...


What you're talking about goes farther into the weeds of setup than I was suggesting.

I have had no trouble using the two fit guides I linked as starting points to build a dynamic fit as you've described. It's pretty easy for me to achieve such a fit, since my long arms afford me a large range of motion. My wife is an altogether different issue. I used those guides to help her get a better mtb fit, which involved dropping her down a frame size, even when every shop and demo rep she spoke to said she should be riding the larger size. Those guides helped target frame dimensions that worked better for her. Of course, they don't mean much in a vacuum...you have to relate them to frame geometry charts of specific bikes.

Those measurements aren't meaningless. They're useful. Do I take them as gospel? No. I don't take anyone's approach as gospel, since there are a lot of ways to approach fitting and achieve the same result. Lee's approach is useful, too. I'm not going to go nuts on measuring every little thing on my bikes, but it sounds like his approach is one way of achieving the sort of result I'd appreciate. I can see how it'd appeal to analytical sorts who like measuring things.

Your point that sometimes you can't achieve the right fit with a certain frame is worth highlighting, though. I think this is a difficult point for a lot of new riders to really absorb and take seriously. Back when I worked in a shop, I encountered the results of this too often. Rider bought a bike the wrong size because the price was "too good" or because they sold themselves on the bike before ever trying it out. Sometimes another shop's sales pressure was a factor, but usually not. I had my own share of people who insisted on buying some bike against my recommendation, usually because of a fit issue, but they had chosen the bike before they test rode it and didn't really care what anyone else thought about fit.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I agree that I probably have gone too far into the weeds. with a modern bike, you can probably get the fit you want based on how the designer did their job.

however, on those fit systems, I have been consistently told to get a bike that is waaaay too big for me. the Competitive Cyclist says I should have a 100mm stem on my bike. I had a BG fit done and the fitter put me on a 100 mm stem too. both because they are based on bike designs that are a decade out of date and use a static seated position as a starting point. I think these fit systems would be a useful starting point if they would modernize the way they use (or don't use) reach and stack and steering dynamics. otherwise, they just set you up for a good hybrid fit.

Lee's approach will put most riders on a bike that will seem "too small" at first, but it's a method that he swears by after thousands of fits. even if it does not work for you, it's a much more informed way to think about bike fit that fitting a bike based on a static seated position.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion but I was able to grab a lightly used 2018 Slasa TJ SLX a few days ago. Just need to find better grips and trails to ride on. Thanks everyone.


I went with Renthal mediums on mine. I like them a lot; much better than the Salsa OEM grips.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

jcd46 said:


> Rebuttal! Chromag grips


Don't listen to JCD! He is bikesexual!


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion but I was able to grab a lightly used 2018 Slasa TJ SLX a few days ago. Just need to find better grips and trails to ride on. Thanks everyone.


yea we're all waiting on pictures and your riding impressions!


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I don’t know how to post pics and have not had a chance to ride other than on the road. I’ll keep everyone posted.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

GSR007 said:


> I don't know how to post pics and have not had a chance to ride other than on the road. I'll keep everyone posted.


Lol this thread is so full of suspense. It's like the OP is the leading authority on the Timberjack and everyone wants to hear his review!

BTW, you can sign up for Photobucket for free and use that website to host your photos. I'm sure there are other websites that host photos, but not all of them work properly here on the forum.

Alternatively, you can get Tapatalk on your phone and log into the MTBR website that way. From there, you can respond to this thread and post photos directly from your phone.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Cool thanks for the response. I’ll get pics ASAP. Just to be clear I’m not a serious mountain biker and have not ridden off road for 10+ years so I am definitely no authority on mountain biking. I’m just hoping I don’t kill myself before my wife tells me to sell it.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Tapatalk worked to add pics thanks. First one is the one taken by original owner and second one is by me. I’m gonna swap out the turquoise pedals for black and get some grips. Weather is 40* and rainy so won’t be riding for awhile. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mack_turtle said:


> I agree that I probably have gone too far into the weeds. with a modern bike, you can probably get the fit you want based on how the designer did their job.
> 
> however, on those fit systems, I have been consistently told to get a bike that is waaaay too big for me. the Competitive Cyclist says I should have a 100mm stem on my bike. I had a BG fit done and the fitter put me on a 100 mm stem too. both because they are based on bike designs that are a decade out of date and use a static seated position as a starting point. I think these fit systems would be a useful starting point if they would modernize the way they use (or don't use) reach and stack and steering dynamics. otherwise, they just set you up for a good hybrid fit.
> 
> Lee's approach will put most riders on a bike that will seem "too small" at first, but it's a method that he swears by after thousands of fits. even if it does not work for you, it's a much more informed way to think about bike fit that fitting a bike based on a static seated position.


One reason I'm not a fan of branded "gimmicky" fit systems is that they don't necessarily allow the fitter the room to consider other variables, like riding style. I had a fitting done for my road bike from a guy who took measurements and made notes, but he asked me a lot of questions mostly, about how I ride, frequency, distance, purpose, pace, and his adjustments took that into account. Now he wasn't especially knowledgeable about mtb fits and I wouldn't necessarily go to him for that, but the guy who trained him is serious about mtb fitting and I know people from pros/former pros down to casual riders who have been happy with his mtb fittings.

I refer to the wrenchscience fit tool over competitive cyclist's, primarily because the wrenchscience tool actually saved my measurements, but I think it's useful to do both and compare results (even though the wrenchscience site hasn't changed in probably 15yrs and is slow AF). And for that matter, I have the numbers from my paid road bike fit, too. They're just a starting point I use to compare to bikes I've ridden and/or own. I don't think starting measurements based on a seated fit is necessarily a bad thing, either. Unless you're a downhill/park rider, you probably spend more TIME in the seated position, anyway. If I'm grinding slowly up a long, steep climb that's several miles long and likely to take me a couple of hours (pretty common ride in my neck of the woods), I want to make sure my bike is comfortable for that part first. The downhill part is going to take a fraction of that time, even though the distance will probably be nearly as far.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

GSR007 said:


> Tapatalk worked to add pics thanks. First one is the one taken by original owner and second one is by me. I'm gonna swap out the turquoise pedals for black and get some grips. Weather is 40* and rainy so won't be riding for awhile.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice! BTW you can ride in that weather. It's the norm here in WA 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## blundar (Jan 18, 2013)

Gorgeous bike! Like I said before, I know that you will enjoy that bike.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> View attachment 1222462
> 
> View attachment 1222463


That green is sweet, looks better than on the websites.



GSR007 said:


> Cool thanks for the response. I'll get pics ASAP. Just to be clear I'm not a serious mountain biker and have not ridden off road for 10+ years so I am definitely no authority on mountain biking. I'm just hoping I don't kill myself before my wife tells me to sell it.


It'll be interesting to hear what you think. I switched to the timberjack from a crappy rigid 26" from the late 90s, the new bike can do so many things so easily compared to my old bike. And that I need to improve my skills to catch up to the timberjack


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Took my first ride today. Coming from a 95 GT Avalanche this bike is unbelievably good. Rolls over rocks and downed limbs very easily. Has enough gears to climb almost any hill I encountered today and was fast enough for me at my skill levels. Good traction for as mush as it was. I found that it goes better seated rather than standing which I did a lot of on my GT. Very happy with my purchase and I'm sure it will only get better when I get in better shape to ride a little harder. I need to get it cleaned up now. Here are a few pics.


























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

Nice! And the bike matches the surrounding. Love that green. Great job!


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

How could I forget to say how great hydraulic brakes are! Huge jump in tech for me. Muddy and wet leaves were a non issue today.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Great to hear! Does that bike have Shimano SLX brakes? I can't remember.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I believe it is SLX all around.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Cool stuff OP. Nice pictures!


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

SLX is awesome stuff. For the price you pay (that's not OEM), you get quite a bit of performance per buck. Plus SLX stuff is always on sale! If you break any of your SLX stuff, you can replace it for fairly cheap compared to some XT and XTR components.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

Nice, makes me want to go and have a ride.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

where was that ride?


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Ride was on a friends private land used for hunting and 4 wheelers.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I hate to pull up an old thread but just want to say thanks to all who gave info and recommendations to my bike purchase: 2018 Salsa Timberjack SLX. Each time I ride it reinforces that I made the right purchase. So far I have added Chester pedals, dropper and oury lock on grips. Also helmet, camel back, cheap bike shorts and gloves. I’m wearing old running shoes now with the pedals. I know it’s the bare minimum and would like other recommendations as to what I should upgrade on the bike next? I know everyone will say the Judy fork because it’s a noodle but honestly I think it’s good and have not ridden anything else to compare to. If you feel a new fork would be a benefit let me know which model would be the next best thing above the Judy. 
The only issues I have had with it is the left pedal stripped out and I bent the rear derailleur hanger. Both were fixed by local shops. I really need to learn how to fix things myself but have not got to that point yet. Thanks again for all the useful info that led to me into this purchase. I may look at getting a FS next year but this bike has taken me everywhere I need to go so far. What would be a comparable FS around this level of bike? Thanks


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Next purchase: tools so you can fix stuff yourself.
Pedal wrench
Good metric allens
Small torque wrench
Spoke wrench
Stuff for tubeless maintenance
Chain lube and grease if you don't already have it
New shift cable+housing
Check the chain

You can learn how to do anything with Park videos.

A new fork that is worthwhile is going to cost $800+ new, but deals can be found. A Fox 34 or Rockshox Pike/ Revelation would be a good start.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

If you don't already have those tires set up tubeless, get your local bike shop to do the conversion for you. It looks like you already have tubeless ready tires, but most bikes ship with tubes in tubeless ready tires. Getting them set up tubeless would be about the cheapest upgrade you can get, and it makes a pretty noticeable difference in how the bike rides (at least I think it does). 

I have a 2018 TJ as well. I've now switched out just about everything. I put on a RS Pike fork, which is WAY better than the stock recon, and I actually think the recon is better than the Judy fork that came on your bike. I put XT brakes on mine, but mine came with SRAM level brakes which were horrible. I'd think your slx brakes would be good enough. I'm not sure they would need upgrading. I put DT350 hubs with Stan's Baron rims on my bike as well, but that was something I just wanted to do and had the money. I didn't see a noticeable improvement in the way the bike rides with the new wheelset.

If you want a dropper, I'm going to go ahead and suggest dropping coin on a Bike Yoke Revive dropper. I've tried several ones now, and the Revive is simply the best one. It's simple to set up, and also has a function on it that lets you easily and quickly bleed the air out of it if it gets squishy. Other brands need a rebuild when they get squishy.

Another worthwhile upgrade I would suggest would be to put a 12 speed chain on the bike when it's time to replace the chain that is on it now. I recently rebuilt my entire drivetrain except the shifter. I kept the same model derailleur, but went with an Eagle GX crank/chainring and chain, and a Sunrace MX8 cassette. Shifting feels more solid and quicker. When your current 11sp chain wears out, try to find out if shimano's new 12sp chains will work with an 11 speed cassette, and if it does, give the 12sp chain a shot.

Keep us updated on what all you do to it, and have fun.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I do have enough basic tools to fix minor things but will slowly add to my collection. I will probably go tubeless soon. 
As far as fork upgrade my thoughts are if it’s $800 for a better fork I could just sell current bike and use the $800 to upgrade the whole bike but will do look out for a deal on a better fork but may just ride this one till it stays to have issues.


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## blundar (Jan 18, 2013)

GSR007 said:


> I hate to pull up an old thread but just want to say thanks to all who gave info and recommendations to my bike purchase: 2018 Salsa Timberjack SLX. Each time I ride it reinforces that I made the right purchase. So far I have added Chester pedals, dropper and oury lock on grips. Also helmet, camel back, cheap bike shorts and gloves. I'm wearing old running shoes now with the pedals. I know it's the bare minimum and would like other recommendations as to what I should upgrade on the bike next? I know everyone will say the Judy fork because it's a noodle but honestly I think it's good and have not ridden anything else to compare to. If you feel a new fork would be a benefit let me know which model would be the next best thing above the Judy.
> The only issues I have had with it is the left pedal stripped out and I bent the rear derailleur hanger. Both were fixed by local shops. I really need to learn how to fix things myself but have not got to that point yet. Thanks again for all the useful info that led to me into this purchase. I may look at getting a FS next year but this bike has taken me everywhere I need to go so far. What would be a comparable FS around this level of bike? Thanks


For upgrades I usually first start off with contact points. You already have a good set of pedals, good seat, and upgraded to Oury lock on grips so you are all set there. I use New Balance sneakers because they have fairly soft grippy rubber soles and they work fine for what I do without breaking the bank.

Your fork is a Judy TK Silver Air I believe. You can upgrade the compression damper on that fork to the one that comes with the Judy RL Gold (Motion Control™ RL damper). You may need to confirm that with the bike shop. This upgrade adds a "platform pedal" adjustable lock that opens up with bigger hits. You can simply reach down to the top of your fork stanchion while riding, and turn the dial to soften or harden up depending on where you are riding (much better than the TK lock/unlock version). I did this with my old Tora fork and it made a huge difference for me.

Salsa Spearfish is pretty close in spec for a full suspension bike from the same awesome brand.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

I did add a trans x dropper and my fork is the Judy gold not silver so it does have the damper and rebound adjustments. It feels good to me but again I have not tried a higher end fork so it would have to be a big difference for me to spend that kind of $ on a new fork. I will have to test a few to see if it makes the ride considerably better.


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Another worthwhile upgrade I would suggest would be to put a 12 speed chain on the bike when it's time to replace the chain that is on it now. I recently rebuilt my entire drivetrain except the shifter. I kept the same model derailleur, but went with an Eagle GX crank/chainring and chain, and a Sunrace MX8 cassette. Shifting feels more solid and quicker. When your current 11sp chain wears out, try to find out if shimano's new 12sp chains will work with an 11 speed cassette, and if it does, give the 12sp chain a shot.


Interesting? I would never have thought of this. About how often do you replace a chain? Yearly? Mileage?


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## blundar (Jan 18, 2013)

GSR007 said:


> I did add a trans x dropper and my fork is the Judy gold not silver so it does have the damper and rebound adjustments. It feels good to me but again I have not tried a higher end fork so it would have to be a big difference for me to spend that kind of $ on a new fork. I will have to test a few to see if it makes the ride considerably better.


You will probably not see much of a difference with higher end forks compared to what you have already.

You are good to go! All you need to improve is the motor then. Ride more and go to as many different trails as possible.

I sometimes do repeated full speed sprints on my local neighborhood streets. That really builds up strength and cardio at the same time (similar to HIIT). This will allow you to blast the hills at better speeds and you won't gas out as quickly.

Have fun and keep on riding.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

awesome! good to have someone come back after their purchase. have you been browsing over at the timberjack thread?



I recently put a new fork on my 2018 timberjack gx1 and my requirement was that the fork has to be around 500 bucks:

DVO sapphire 32, purchased with 20% off summer coupon, came out to $440

but it was back ordered until mid august, so got a deal for the sapphire 34 instead, normal price $899. use awesomemtb for %15 off

Love the fork so far, it comes stock at 140mm but you can shorten it. I left mine at 140mm because yolo? kids still say that right?

new tires if you're due
and new cockpit if you so desire (stem, handlebar...) especially if you are changing out the fork


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## radarreed (Sep 28, 2018)

Yes I did read most of the Timberjack thread when I was looking for bikes. 
Sounds like I should just ride and see what needs replaced. I’m pretty happy with it now but always wandering what’s better. 
How about a nice pair of comfy padded shorts? I have decent serfas now but I’m sure there are better out there. Thanks


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> Another worthwhile upgrade I would suggest would be to put a 12 speed chain on the bike when it's time to replace the chain that is on it now. I recently rebuilt my entire drivetrain except the shifter. I kept the same model derailleur, but went with an Eagle GX crank/chainring and chain, and a Sunrace MX8 cassette. Shifting feels more solid and quicker. When your current 11sp chain wears out, try to find out if shimano's new 12sp chains will work with an 11 speed cassette, and if it does, give the 12sp chain a shot.
> 
> Interesting? I would never have thought of this. About how often do you replace a chain? Yearly? Mileage?


I couldn't tell you my mileage, but it seems with normal riding I get about a year out of the cheap ones I've been using. I'm a heavier guy though, and normally don't spend a ton of money on chains. We'll see how long this GX Eagle chain lasts.

You can buy a cheap chain wear indicator to see when your chain has stretched to the point of needing to be replaced.

https://www.jensonusa.com/Bike-Hand-Chain-Wear-Indicator-Tool


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

GSR007 said:


> Yes I did read most of the Timberjack thread when I was looking for bikes.
> Sounds like I should just ride and see what needs replaced. I'm pretty happy with it now but always wandering what's better.
> How about a nice pair of comfy padded shorts? I have decent serfas now but I'm sure there are better out there. Thanks


I use the Zoic Ether shorts and really like them. They're very comfortable and the pad helps quite a bit. Might want to look into a good pair of shoes as well, if you're still rocking the tennis shoes. I run 5-10 freeriders. They have good grip and are really comfortable as well.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

MX9799 said:


> I use the Zoic Ether shorts and really like them. They're very comfortable and the pad helps quite a bit. Might want to look into a good pair of shoes as well, if you're still rocking the tennis shoes. I run 5-10 freeriders. They have good grip and are really comfortable as well.


more times than not, when I am researching upgrades for my timberjack, *MX9799*, your posts come up:


first it was tires, then stem and fork (which I've upgraded as well)
then it was bigger rotors, just saw that you were looking into but went with better calipers instead (I was looking into bigger rotors to see if they're worth it and to see what adapters I'd need)
then it was things i didn't think i'd need but now want: the 11-46cog with 32t chainring, and maybe a 12 speed chain. and maybe new wheels and new hubs.
then it was handlebars, at first i wanted pnw range but it was backordered so i went with my second choice which is deity blacklabel which a search shows me that you got that as well
now it's the zoic ether (i get the ether ones for the longer inseam) and the 5-10 freeriders (i got the canvas version)

how do you like your handlebar by the way? I got the 38mm rise which I am concerned about, and I might cut it down from 800mm. I've only had one ride so far, and I think it's more of my (bad) habit from the stock setup but now the front end definitely feels light and feels washy through turns; which I think I just need to adjust my attack position.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

tweeder82o said:


> more times than not, when I am researching upgrades for my timberjack, *MX9799*, your posts come up:
> 
> 
> first it was tires, then stem and fork (which I've upgraded as well)
> ...


Hahahaha. Either we like the same sort of bikes and gear, or the manufacturers' marketing schemes are working really well on us. I like the 38mm rise Blacklabel handlebars. My bike actually came with a 70mm stem, and the stock setup had me farther over the front of the bike than I liked. I put on a 50mm stem and the taller handlebars feel much better to me, and my hands don't go numb anymore on long sections where I'm sitting and pedaling a lot. I'm also not bent over near as much when standing up in the attack position either, which I like because long, fast, descents are my favorite parts of the trail.

As far as your bike feeling washy through the turns, I can't tell you why, but my setup turns much better if I get farther back on the bike. I don't know why that is, but if I have my weight forward, my front end does weird things sometimes. For some reason, if I get back of center on my TJ, it turns much better, especially going downhill at higher speeds. I'll also add that I've found that nothing I can do seems to get the front end to stick good on rock-hard, dry, pebbly corners, but I'm not sure anything turns good in those conditions.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

MX9799 said:


> Hahahaha. Either we like the same sort of bikes and gear, or the manufacturers' marketing schemes are working really well on us. I like the 38mm rise Blacklabel handlebars. My bike actually came with a 70mm stem, and the stock setup had me farther over the front of the bike than I liked. I put on a 50mm stem and the taller handlebars feel much better to me, and my hands don't go numb anymore on long sections where I'm sitting and pedaling a lot. I'm also not bent over near as much when standing up in the attack position either, which I like because long, fast, descents are my favorite parts of the trail.
> 
> As far as your bike feeling washy through the turns, I can't tell you why, but my setup turns much better if I get farther back on the bike. I don't know why that is, but if I have my weight forward, my front end does weird things sometimes. For some reason, if I get back of center on my TJ, it turns much better, especially going downhill at higher speeds. I'll also add that I've found that nothing I can do seems to get the front end to stick good on rock-hard, dry, pebbly corners, but I'm not sure anything turns good in those conditions.


I have a feeling it's more that we have similar tastes, and after that, factoring the price point of our bikes we inevitably will end up with the same parts.
Mine came with 60mm stem and I put a 40mm on. I still have about 30ish?mm of stem spacers under the stem; which I might play with to lower the 38mm rise bar some. but the change in bar and stem is definitely a plus, the bike is a lot more comfortable and less tiring (I doubt it's that I suddenly got in better shape). I prefer fast descents as well.

When I had my stock salsa handlebars on, I developed a habit of leaning back (is it further back? I don't know, further back than what? it just _feels_ like I am back and "pulling" or having arm tension on the bars) when I turn. and it felt good doing that. I'd have to experiment some more, but maybe with the new setup (shorter stem, higher rise bar, longer fork) my "leaning back" feel through turns is not correct anymore.

can't stick on hard pebbly turns  that might be something I should keep in mind too. I deem myself a upper beginner to lower intermediate rider, so I kind of have the mentality to keep taking turns faster with each lap as a sign of improvement. But I guess that works in smooth bermed turns, but I should take caution on flat loose over hard


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Congrats on enjoying your bike. Every time I think about upgrading something on my Timberjack (2018 NX) it comes down to, "Do I really need it to be that many dollars better?" Everything it came with works fine... even the TK fork, which I just run open. I'm looking at new tires and a dropper and a sweepier handlebar. I don't know if these plastic pedals are Salsa stock or something REI put on but they feel kind of draggy. But nothing major. I think I'd do the brakes in front of the fork.


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

eb1888 said:


> Ghost Kato 6 has *really* short reach numbers. 420mm on a Large. That'd give me no cockpit space so I couldn't ride that ride. Except maybe with a stupid long stem. And a 70* head tube angle--steep. A complete pass.
> 
> 458 on the Large Timberjack. 68* ht>.
> 
> It's all about the geo.


THIS!! ^^^ Timberjack has better geo, IMO, than the Ghost. The Timberjack comes in an SLX 29 also. I know you want to ride off road so any decent bike will feel great but you're getting advice here from seasoned riders. I'm about ready to get a '19 Timberjack SLX 29 myself.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

GSR007 said:


> The only issues I have had with it is the left pedal stripped out and I bent the rear derailleur hanger. Both were fixed by local shops. I really need to learn how to fix things myself but have not got to that point yet.


Youtube.

Seriously, with some basic tools and youtube guidance, damn near anyone can fix almost damn near anything.


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