# 3 months into MTB and already looking for an upgrade. Marlin 7 to Full Stache?



## rexdriver85 (Aug 4, 2018)

Hey all, another new guy here.

I bought my first bike about 3 months ago and have been riding the trails on group rides a few times a week. Still building fitness and certainly building skill. 

So, I bought a Trek Marlin 7 which is an entry level hardtail. I can tell as I progress, and what my trails consist of, that it’s really not the right bike. It’s perfect for gravel and rail trails. 

A lot of people I ride with have fat bikes and mid fat 29ers, and they absolutely love them from the amount of grip they offer. 

My issue is, does it really make sense to go from a 750 dollar bike to a 3800 dollar bike? I rode a Trek Full Stache and it was insanely good compared to the Marlin. As it should have been. 

I guess I just don’t know if I want a better hardtail or if I should go full suspension. The trails around here would be conducive to either type bike. 

Somehow I feel I should keep trying to progress on the Marlin until I’m worthy of a better bike. But then I feel like the bike will hold me back also. 

I’m between the Stache 7 and Full Stache 8.

What have you guys done in my situation? 

Thanks all.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

You only need to make that huge of a jump if you want to spend that much.

Maybe a Plus HT? or the Marin Hawkhill? FS well priced, with good reviews from users here.

I did go from a $700HT to a $2500 Santa Cruz.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Also keep the Marlin as a backup


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

rexdriver85 said:


> Hey all, another new guy here.
> 
> I bought my first bike about 3 months ago and have been riding the trails on group rides a few times a week. Still building fitness and certainly building skill.
> 
> ...


If grip is what you are lacking, try new tires, maybe wider ones if possible.

Hard to advise without knowing if the bike really holds you back. Maybe make a list of things that lack (the 3x drivetrain, maybe brakes, geometry, tires if you want to go to plus tires etc.) and then chose a bike that offers the upgrade you want.

Yes a $3,800 bike will feel better than a $750 bike, no one will argue that. But did you take it on the trail or just on the LBS parking lot?

Do you want full suspension, or a HT?



jcd46 said:


> Also keep the Marlin as a backup


+1 not much resale value anyway.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

rexdriver85 said:


> Somehow I feel I should keep trying to progress on the Marlin until I'm worthy of a better bike. But then I feel like the bike will hold me back also.


Nonsense! You're worthy of a better bike if you want a better bike.

Depending on your area you could probably get a couple nice used bikes for$3800, maybe a mid level FS and a HT. You could even pick up a decent new HT for $800 and have $3000 for a FS!

https://www.performancebike.com/shop/marin-pine-mountain-275-mountain-bike-2018-31-8469

Or if you're OK with non-plus and want FS look at the Hawk Hill JCD suggested.


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## brent701 (Sep 17, 2012)

rexdriver85 said:


> Hey all, another new guy here.
> 
> I bought my first bike about 3 months ago and have been riding the trails on group rides a few times a week. Still building fitness and certainly building skill.
> 
> ...


Only you can justify going from a cheap bike to a expensive bike really.

But. Yes it's a HUGE difference between the two

But you are also going from one extreme to the other. One is a basic HT one is a well packaged Full Suspension plus bike.

If you got the money Get the Full Stache.

I had a Stache 9.6 and I am getting the new 9.7 and a Full stache,. But I like N+1 lmao


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

The Marlin is what you said, a gravel and rail trails bike. The fork is the main reason.
Ypu can choose a hardtail with a real mtbike fork. With a good wheelset. With brakes that work.
Thats what will allow you to move forward with the right tool for trail riding.
A Stache 9.7 is what I'd consider. Lighter and very capable. Demo one. A 2018 is on sale. You can negotiate for more off with a manager willing to work with you to get a deal done. Offer cash.
The Full Stache is a major fs bike designed for heavy duty chunk. If you have the level of terrain for that bike it would be trails you don't currently ride. It would have destroyed your Marlin.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm going to offer a couple of thoughts, take em or leave em. All you have mentioned is "grip." That can be a function of tires or suspension, or both. Fat bikes tend to have no suspension or just a fork. Not sure what "mid fat" means, I assume that means plus tires, but doesn't indicate full suspension or not.

Anything with an air fork and full suspension is going to be better in many or all respects than your bike now. Something with the right 2.3" or larger tires is probably going to offer more "grip" regardless of suspension.

But you are also talking about buying a bike 5-6x more expensive than what you have, when all you seem to want is "grip." You can get "grip" for a lot less money, say 2-3x your current bike cost, with a number of nice bikes. The aforementioned Marins (B-17 if you like plus), YT Jeffsy, Canyon Spectral, and some sale 2018s of various makes and specifications on sale at various places.

I think with more than 3 month's experience, you could make a more intelligent $4k bike purchase than you can currently. In the meantime, you might be well-served by a lower-end full sus bike. Or maybe some new tires and a new fork. 

It may not be obvious (or maybe it is), but an air fork will keep your front tire on the ground more often than a coil fork and help keep it from washing out, which I assume is what you refer to as lack of "grip." Same with a rear suspension. And the right tires for your terrain at the right pressure (tubeless) can make a world of difference without having to spend $4k, or even $2k.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

And my offering of wisdom:

I started on a $600 Hard Tail 29er with wet brakes, rode that all summer.
What others told me was true, "Its far better to build your skill sets up on a less expensive bike, less of a worry when the bike leaves you behind and your watching it tomahawk down the trail ahead of you--:~D

I moved to a $2000 year end closeout Full squish 27.5 bike that I got for $1500 and had a blast riding and upgrading that bike for two years. 
I started locking out the rear shock more and more on the ride to get to the single tracks and next forgetting to unlock the rear shock not even noticing until rides end. (It still had about 30 mm of travel when locked out.)

I got stronger and was using my legs as suspension more effectively is seemed.

Moved to a slack 27.5 plus bike a Hard tail.
Got that long missed hard tail efficiency back without the hard tail harsh ride.
had it three seasons now, and still feel no need for more bike. 
Have not lusted for new wheels at all.

This hard tail plus bike was $1900, Is light to me and handles great.
Turns out after riding many day long test rides the slack geo was the biggle above all else..

A better bike is Better, you get what you pay for.

As for my full suspension bike, It was great but was just more bike than I needed for my trails and my riding.
My hard tail plus bike is a condition three bike where an all mountain FS would be a four and a down hill bike would be a condition five.
Hard Tails demand more from the rider, Make no mistake a full suspension bikes will help you on the harder black diamond trails. 
But then you have to ride that less efficient more expensive bike on the x country trails to get there right ?
Pick the right bike for your trails and riding style above all else..

One of my friends rides his single speed cyclocross bike with only rim brakes down any black diamond trail and likes to run down those $5,000 full squish bikes.
In His case Its not the bike it the rider.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

rexdriver85 said:


> I guess I just don't know if I want a better hardtail or if I should go full suspension. The trails around here would be conducive to either type bike.
> 
> Somehow I feel I should keep trying to progress on the Marlin until I'm worthy of a better bike. *But then I feel like the bike will hold me back also. *


As they say, it's 80% the rider. At this point the only thing "holding you back" is your lack of experience. Stick with it and your skills and fitness will continue to progress.

Stick with a hardtail, but feel free to "upgrade" to a bike with better geo and components.


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## rexdriver85 (Aug 4, 2018)

I really appreciate all of the responses guys. 

I think I’ll stick to looking for a better hardtail for now and keep the Marlin for the gravel and rail trails. 

The Full Stache is awesome, but also a pretty hard pill to swallow so early into this sport. 

By the way, my LBS has a pretty neat course set up out back with a rocky section, berms, a small drop, a small hill and a decent log over to test the bikes out. 

I really like the idea of plus bikes after having ridden a few there. 

I’m leaning towards the Stache 7. 

In my beginner stages of skill and fitness, will I really notice a difference between 29+ and 27.5+?


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

rexdriver85 said:


> In my beginner stages of skill and fitness, *will I really notice a difference between 29+ and 27.5+?*


Yes, they're different. Will you have a strong preference of one over the other? Probably not.

2 years from now you will have formed stronger opinions about many things bike related, but it takes ride time to form personal preferences. What you like today will be different from 2 years from now, and 5 years from now, but that's OK.


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## rexdriver85 (Aug 4, 2018)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Yes, they're different. Will you have a strong preference of one over the other? Probably not.
> 
> 2 years from now you will have formed stronger opinions about many things bike related, but it takes ride time to form personal preferences. What you like today will be different from 2 years from now, and 5 years from now, but that's OK.


That's fair, and I am sure you are right on the point of want different things as times goes on.

I seem to climb a lot at the trails I frequent, should I preference a head tube angle not as crazy slack?

For instance the new Marin San Quentin has a 65 degree HTA, and the Stache 7 has a 68.4.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I've never been one to start a hobby or sport with "entry level" stuff. I'll start with very solid mid-range stuff, and for a full sus mtb, that'd be $3-4K right now.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

rexdriver85 said:


> That's fair, and I am sure you are right on the point of want different things as times goes on.
> 
> I seem to climb a lot at the trails I frequent, should I preference a head tube angle not as crazy slack?
> 
> For instance the new Marin San Quentin has a 65 degree HTA, and the Stache 7 has a 68.4.


Ride it and see for yourself. The SQ is a somewhat unusual hardtail. The Nail Trail is a more conventional slackish frame.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

rexdriver85 said:


> That's fair, and I am sure you are right on the point of want different things as times goes on.
> 
> I seem to climb a lot at the trails I frequent, should I preference a head tube angle not as crazy slack?
> 
> For instance the new Marin San Quentin has a 65 degree HTA, and the Stache 7 has a 68.4.


Ride it and see for yourself. The SQ is a somewhat unusual hardtail. The Nail Trail is a more conventional slackish frame.

Honestly, I think maybe a fork upgrade and some wider or more aggressive tires based on local recommendation is probably a good starting point. Although you haven't mentioned it, I am reasonably sure your coil fork has pogoed on you or bottomed hard a few times.

Suntour will upgrade even someone else's coil fork to one of their air models for around 250, I believe, and the Manitou Markhor seems tailor made for replacing the fork on entry level hardtails.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

I'd talk to up to 6 *managers only* at different stores and offer 1600 for a 7 and 2600 for a 9.7 + tax cash. 60% no refund down at order. I'd also ask for 20 off anything the shop orders for me going forward. Remember only a manager or owner can make a deal. Don't talk price with any sales guy. Your looking for someone who'll work with you to get a deal done on an 18 left in the warehouse. Regular order no special shipping.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I've owned quite a few bikes in the past couple of years. I enjoy hardtails the most because they constantly teach me new things. Hardtails also reminds me of my mistakes on the trail too. Almost all of my friends ride FS bikes when we get together. I am that oddball that loves showing up with a slacked out short chainstay 29er hardtail lol 

You probably have more to learn on your hardtail. Just enjoy the ride and keep at it! Your next bike will be here before you know it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

eb1888 said:


> I'd talk to up to 6 *managers only* at different stores and offer 1600 for a 7 and 2600 for a 9.7 + tax cash. 60% no refund down at order. I'd also ask for 20 off anything the shop orders for me going forward. Remember only a manager or owner can make a deal. Don't talk price with any sales guy. Your looking for someone who'll work with you to get a deal done on an 18 left in the warehouse. Regular order no special shipping.


Ignore eb's specific numbers. What you're likely to get in any sort of discount will vary from shop to shop. At this time of year, it's highly likely that lots of sizes will be sold out, so the model you want in a 2018 bike may simply not be available, and lots of 2019 bikes aren't available yet.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

I'm going to go out on a limb and tell you to seriously consider the Full Stache that you liked. A more experienced rider can probably do more on a hardtail than you can do on any bike, but it's new riders who have the most to gain from the bikes with the best technology (good suspension, good brakes, grippy tires, etc.).

I ride a hardtail and I like it, and I'm sure it's made me a better rider, but in hindsight, I should have considered buying a full suspension bike right out of the gate. My hardtail doesn't have the best of everything, but it does have decent, mid level parts and so it was $2500+. At that price point, you can get an entry level full suspension (and by entry level, I mean one with a dropper post, an air fork, and hydraulic brakes, not some piece of junk that happens to pivot at both ends). I like chunky and loose trails, where a full suspension bike shines the most and having that bit of cushion helps avoid crashes when you make line choice mistakes.

For a taller rider, it's pretty hard to beat a 29+ full suspension bike for trails, especially one with nimble handling/short backend like the Trek Full Stache. I'm far from a Trek fanboy (never owned one), but it is the clear leader in that category, with the Salsa Deadwood playing catchup with its long chainstays.

The bike you're riding now is a step up from complete junk, but riding a bike with air suspension, wider tires, etc., will be a total game changer. I agree with the above riders that 80% of it is the rider, but if you're coming from a skinny tire, triple drivetrain, spring fork bike, a 1x, plus tire, air suspension f/r bike is going to be a totally different experience.

Your preferences will change over time and that's okay, as long as what you buy still allows you to do what you want to do. If I were on the bike you're on now, I would purposely avoid a lot of the stuff I now enjoy because it would be terrifying to do on the bike you're riding. That won't be the case on the Full Stache. It probably wouldn't be the case on a $2000+ hardtail either, but if what you want is the full suspension experience, that's not a bad idea at all, if your budget supports it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Not sure that the full stache and the deadwood are really in the same category. Sure, they have the same wheel size and they're full suspension, but they are different bikes. Trek tends to make bikes more for the general population, so fun and playful are going to be higher priorities for them. Salsa is more of a niche brand, and everything they do follows from their "Adventure by bike" motto. Salsas these days are more geared towards long rides, backcountry, expeditions, touring, etc.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

jcd46 said:


> You only need to make that huge of a jump if you want to spend that much.
> 
> Maybe a Plus HT? or the Marin Hawkhill? FS well priced, with good reviews from users here.
> 
> I did go from a $700HT to a $2500 Santa Cruz.


You know, several months ago I was looking at your bikes online, and I could have sworn they had a 2016 Santa Cruz Heckler for sale brand-new for $1600. Can't remember the website, if it was Chain Reaction or similar. I thought that was a really good deal, but now you say you paid $2500. Maybe it was used or it was a blowout sale to get rid of the older model.

Was your Nashbar 29" rigid really $700?


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> You know, several months ago I was looking at your bikes online, and I could have sworn they had a 2016 Santa Cruz Heckler for sale brand-new for $1600. Can't remember the website, if it was Chain Reaction or similar. I thought that was a really good deal, but now you say you paid $2500. Maybe it was used or it was a blowout sale to get rid of the older model.
> 
> Was your Nashbar 29" rigid really $700?


No, that was just a frame I bought for cheap to build my first bike. I moved all that to the Kona, except the bars/stem/grips/saddle.

I think Nashbar had it on sale for $99.00. I'm going to sell it though..which wont be much, I might donate it.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

rexdriver85 said:


> Hey all, another new guy here.
> 
> I bought my first bike about 3 months ago and have been riding the trails on group rides a few times a week. Still building fitness and certainly building skill.
> 
> ...


Don't give up on your $750 bike just yet. It can be upgraded for far less than buying a whole new full-suspension bike, and even if you still don't like it 100%, it can be a backup bike anyway later.

Buy a Maxxis 2.6 tire, put it on the front, and see how you like it. Then put the largest tire you can on the back (chances are it's not going to be more than a 2.35 or 2.40 if you have a triple chainring front derailleur). If you convert to 2x or 1x you can probably put on a 2.5 or 2.6 in back. Again, see if that helps your problems. That's only a $100 or so upgrade w/o any drivetrain mods.

Other upgrades are a dropper post and an air fork (see below). I'm doing a 26x2.8 in a 27.5 standard air fork (or if you have a 29" frame and fork you do 27.5x2.8) but some people want to instead get a real plus fork:

You can do 1/2 plus and buy a Manitou + air fork for only $200. That will allow you to put on a real 3.0 tire, but you'll also have buy a new front wheel to handle that tire width and the 15mm axle requirement. Still, that's less than $600 total to go 1/2 plus. Droppers can be had for under $150. These upgrades above will really help a lot, but if you still may not be 100% satisfied, and then I guess it's save time.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

I don't think dumping money on the Marlin, will have the same results as upgrading his bike.

He is looking to improve, and better than entry level bike is better, no matter how you slice it.

That people have different budgets? Sure, if upgrading the Marlin was the only option, I agree with you. You know I don't have "high end" bikes. I'm happy with SLX everything.


richj8990 said:


> Don't give up on your $750 bike just yet. It can be upgraded for far less than buying a whole new full-suspension bike, and even if you still don't like it 100%, it can be a backup bike anyway later.
> 
> Buy a Maxxis 2.6 tire, put it on the front, and see how you like it. Then put the largest tire you can on the back (chances are it's not going to be more than a 2.35 or 2.40 if you have a triple chainring front derailleur). If you convert to 2x or 1x you can probably put on a 2.5 or 2.6 in back. Again, see if that helps your problems. That's only a $100 or so upgrade w/o any drivetrain mods.
> 
> ...


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Harold said:


> Not sure that the full stache and the deadwood are really in the same category. Sure, they have the same wheel size and they're full suspension, but they are different bikes. Trek tends to make bikes more for the general population, so fun and playful are going to be higher priorities for them. Salsa is more of a niche brand, and everything they do follows from their "Adventure by bike" motto. Salsas these days are more geared towards long rides, backcountry, expeditions, touring, etc.


I completely disagree. Salsa and its sister brand, Surly, both make numerous off road touring/expedition/adventure sorts of bicycles. The Deadwood is not among them. It's a trail bike.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

twodownzero said:


> I completely disagree. Salsa and its sister brand, Surly, both make numerous off road touring/expedition/adventure sorts of bicycles. The Deadwood is not among them. It's a trail bike.


Yes, they make trail bikes, but the adventure component is in all of them to one degree or another. The first iteration of the deadwood was 100% bikepacking bike. Now, much less so. But it is still a salsa.

The current deadwood is more of a sibling to my bucksaw than it is to the full stache.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## GKelley (Sep 4, 2018)

*A Cautionary Tale*

I say upgrade to a $1500-2000 hardtail. The component set will be much better, and you still won't break the bank on a bike that will probably take some good hits.

I myself have a bike that I just picked up this summer for $1500 + $300 dropper post upgrade. (other things too, but those were upgrades to make the bike fit better). Today marked my 3rd week of trail riding, and I took a spill on my bike. I came of it great, got a good tumble out it. But my steel framed bike got a huge dent! It's heartbreaking to say the least.









This is how it looks now after I bandaged it up. 















So I say definitely upgrade your bike. It will upgrade your experience. Just don't go crazy on a super expensive frame, until you get some more riding time in.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Don't spend money on the Marlin.
It'll just make your real bike that much more expensive.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

eb1888 said:


> Don't spend money on the Marlin.


^ this.

lipstick on a pig.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I'd agree not to put money into the Marlin.

Imo if you're into the sport go ahead and get the nice new bike. With that, & the fact that you're fairly new, I'd point out that the Stache is kind of a niche bike along with fat bikes. Unless I was older or lived in the 4 corners area a fat or mid fat bike would be a second bike to me and not my primary ride.

Here's my advice which is two fold. First, you're in Allentown and winter is on the way. Take your time with this decision over the winter and maybe shoot to have a new bike by spring. The Marlin will keep you going through winter out there just fine. Second, expand out past the group you ride with now. Take a trip to Allegrippis, or Lehigh, etc. , and see what guys are riding there. Maybe that will change your perspective on what type of bike you want. Not to say the Stache may not be right up your alley, it might, but unless you're riding some serious techy chunk you may be better served by a different style bike. Most of my experienced mtb friends out there are riding "aggressive" mid to long travel 29ers.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Harold said:


> The current deadwood is more of a sibling to my bucksaw than it is to the full stache.


All that demonstrates to me is that both bikes need a geometry update.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

twodownzero said:


> All that demonstrates to me is that both bikes need a geometry update.


Why? A world with a bunch of too-similar bikes would be boring.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Harold said:


> Why? A world with a bunch of too-similar bikes would be boring.


Totally.

I have a hard time pinning down an exact percentage but sometimes I think only 10% of the bikes on the market suite my wants, other times it's 50%. There's so many good bikes out there though. Really I'm still vary curious about geometry and I have a strong desire to try for myself many things that are different than what I've ridden or owned, within limits.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

The reason to get a Stache 7 or 9.7 now is because there are some 2018s left in Treks warehouses. And you can offer an amount in cash that's 30% off list plus tax for one. If you wait until spring you'll be looking at a 19 at 15-18% off max. It'll take you contacting half a dozen shops to find a manager willing to work with you to get a deal done. It's easier as a cash buyer right now on leftover bikes.


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

If you have the money then go for it. Unless you have bmx background, it's unlikely the Marlin 7 is holding you back.


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## rexdriver85 (Aug 4, 2018)

Just thought I would update. I really appreciate all the insight from you guys. I went for the Stache 7. Just came back from about a 4 hour run at Nockamixon here in PA and the difference between the Marlin 7 and the Stache 7 is insane. No regrets. Most fun I've had since I started MTB!


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

That's the way you do it! 

Congrats! :thumbsup:


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Looking great!


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Sweet bike! Batman will be jealous! 

Congrats!


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## Kolchak (May 15, 2017)

Nice ride. Lots of good places to ride in that area.


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## rexdriver85 (Aug 4, 2018)

Thanks guys! Super stoked.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Get a good tire pressure gauge so you can experiment with the 'tune' of your Plus tires footprint and grip.
https://www.thebikesmiths.com/produ...MImLLphab03QIVEJ1-Ch1A2wCmEAQYASABEgJMvfD_BwE


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## UPSed (Dec 26, 2010)

eb1888 said:


> Get a good tire pressure gauge so you can experiment with the 'tune' of your Plus tires footprint and grip.
> https://www.thebikesmiths.com/produ...MImLLphab03QIVEJ1-Ch1A2wCmEAQYASABEgJMvfD_BwE
> View attachment 1219540


This. Half a pound of pressure makes a big difference with plus tires. And congrats!


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## rexdriver85 (Aug 4, 2018)

Interesting enough, I bought that exact same gauge at my LBS when I bought my bike, haha. Thanks for the suggestion!


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