# What Will Encourage More Women To Bike?



## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Interesting report from the first-ever National Women Cycling Forum
What will encourage more women to bike? - Greater Greater Washington

A sample quip:
One panelist said bike shops could start by "keeping the bathrooms cleaner."


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

i think in "general", men are a bit more ballsy. most women i know have a fear of getting hurt....so do i, but i find a way to still enjoy myself, yet be cautious. I think most women would enjoy riding fire roads as a start. you dont have to shred hardcore and break bones in order to be a real mountain biker!


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

As Nicole mentioned, focusing on the scenery might be a way to start.

But really, I think red wine and dark chocolate would do the trick. I wouldn't mind the cold shoulder in bikeshops if they had a Malbec and some nigh end dark chocolate!


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

And here's some documentation on chocolate's health benefits!

Does A Chocolate Habit Help Keep You Lean? : The Salt : NPR

YAY!


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## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

screampint said:


> But really, I think red wine and dark chocolate would do the trick.


:thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 10, 2006)

*Calories burned while cycling knowledge*

Show a list of calorie burned counts for various sports for 30 minut- s and 1 hour of play. When they see how many more cycling is many more women will pick up a bike. Many would rather ride trails then ride roads. Data from Nutrition Data.com Daily Needs calculator found at, as I don't have 10 posts they won't let me post links but that is where I took my data from the numbers below, I didn't pull them out of my hat. I happen to use that site to monitor my diet.
60 minutes slow (under 10mph) - 267 Walking - 250
60 minutes MTB - 669
60 minutes leisure (10 mph) - 447 
60 minutes leisure to moderate effort - 625 calories
60 minutes running (5mph) - 625 calories
60 minutes high impact aerobics - 536 calories

What would you rather do? Cycling in any form is a great calorie burn for the effort put in and so much fun to boot that I never feel like I'm just out getting a work out and being on a real bike is more calories then similar efforts on a stationary. Check out the numbers.


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## Christieland (Mar 12, 2012)

There has to be a place in between a) bad ass "ballsy" men and b) "safe, communal and inclusive." 

There are plenty of women who are attracted to doing things that are not safe, communal, or inclusive, but who aren't as ballsy or bad ass as some men (and yet still enjoy community with follow bad ass girls). 

I feel talked down to almost when I read stuff like this that assumes that women want to play safe sports, sit in a circle and feel included. But I'm not always as gnarly as most men. I want to kick ass and do cool things, but I want to do them carefully, and I enjoy seeing inspiring images of women like me succeeding at a high level.

I think showing inspiring images of sexy, attractive women (everyone loves pretty girls, even girls) playing and competing with skill. Having fun. Showing that they can be accomplished, skilled, competitive, and feminine. 

Lots of movies from the past fifteen years are starting to show ass kicking hot women...many women are still hung up on not being able to do things that are not considered feminine. It sucks...

Just my two cents...


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

mtbxplorer said:


> Interesting report from the first-ever National Women Cycling Forum
> What will encourage more women to bike? - Greater Greater Washington
> 
> A sample quip:
> One panelist said bike shops could start by "keeping the bathrooms cleaner."




What about those of us that pee in the woods? Make the thicket thicker?


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Well....

A previous thread established that women prefer riding to sex......

Well I am out of ideas.


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## PedalingSLP (Dec 6, 2011)

Along the lines of what Christieland And Nicole said, I found another girl who is just about as bad/good as I am, and riding together is so much fun! We are probably semi-wussy to medium on the wussy---> ballsy scale. We can walk scary parts without shame and come up with areas of the trail we want to tackle (even in an embarrassing amount of gear) over and over till we get it...or get sick of falling over. It's not a race and we chat and have fun in the woods. I love riding w my husband too, but I have more/different fun w my bike buddy.

Oh and wine. Wine is yummy too : )


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

I am glad a conversation started here, because honesty, I don't understand how something so fun and challenging and flexible (bike alone, bike with a dog, bike with a friend, bike with a bunch of friends, bike with a group of strangers, bike fast, bike slow, bike in the street, bike in the woods, etc.!) can be so under-represented by women. I think there is a conspiracy afoot!


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## t135 (Jul 11, 2011)

My wife loves it. She would love to take a skills class for women but they are all on the west coast or in Canada. Lame.


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## t135 (Jul 11, 2011)

Well there is one down south here but is $600 and three days. Overkill.


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## PixieChik (Jul 10, 2010)

T135, I am planning an informal "women's specific" skills class by just gathering a bunch of fellow female riders and going to the nearest mountain bike park a couple of hours from my home. They offer a day of skills training with individual and group rates. We will call ahead and ask who is available. I know they have female trainers there.

Maybe there is a mountain bike park near your home where she can go for a day?


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## mudgirl (Jun 19, 2007)

t135, if there is a local mtb club, maybe you could talk to them about offering a women's skills clinics. I have been to several clinics offered by the Luna Chix in Saratoga Springs, NY. It's a 3 hour drive one way for me, but was well worth it!! I also was able to get the Luna Chix to come to my town last summer to offer a skills clinic for our local mtb club. All I had to do was reimburse (or in this case, provide) lodging and mileage expenses. We donated all the proceeds from the clinic registration fees back to the Luna Chix. 

Formica, I was puzzled by the cleaner bathrooms comment as well. We don't have a bike shop, nor even bathrooms for the most part, near our trails. I thought that was a bit random. IMHO, I think just having more role models out there is the key. And, while I'm not exactly a girly-girl, maybe it would help to let other women know that you can mtb and still be feminine. I was so relieved to hear Tara Llanes fussing over her hair while I was taking a clinic with her several years ago. It helped me realize that you can be a [email protected] mtb'er chick and still care about how you look. :thumbsup:


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Me in spandex......... Wait what?
Oh what would make them want to ride MORE, I think showing them the benifits of working out and having fun at the same time.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

t135 said:


> My wife loves it. She would love to take a skills class for women but they are all on the west coast or in Canada. Lame.


Where exactly are you? Many clubs all over the nation put on clinics.


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

how many women have their husbands run out on fun rides while they are home with the kids? I dont have kids, but i imagine that will be a big issue!

many women may not think they have the time.


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

I know plenty of women who bike, just not many that mountain bike. Lots of road bikers. I see lots of women out there cycling on the roads, too.

As for finding ways to recruit more women mountain bike riders... why? The trails are crowded enough around here already. If I see another woman out riding I am always happy to say "hi", but if they aren't motivated to get themselves out there I don't feel like I need to encourage them.


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## kinsler (Sep 13, 2011)

MtbRN said:


> I know plenty of women who bike, just not many that mountain bike. Lots of road bikers. I see lots of women out there cycling on the roads, too.
> 
> As for finding ways to recruit more women mountain bike riders... why? The trails are crowded enough around here already. If I see another woman out riding I am always happy to say "hi", but if they aren't motivated to get themselves out there I don't feel like I need to encourage them.


I agree... I like my singletrack just like my powder!

I would never discourage anyone from mt biking, but I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to push someone who wasn't already willing onto the trail.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

This is a complex topic. I think there are many reasons why the number of female cyclists lag behind men in all the diverse forms of cycling: road (commuter, recreation), mtb (dh, xc) . Many have posted their observations and ideas here and in articles. 

I agree, that the perception of safety is a significant factor. However, bicycling is no more dangerous for women than men, but women may be less inclined to engage in something that is perceived to be risky especially if they are not confident or lack the skill. The perceived risk also increases as the required skill level increases: riding in traffic, compared to riding trails that are more technical both demonstrate a progressive learning curve and both require specific skill sets. Many females might not progress beyond paved bike paths and many give up trying to progress in their current riding discipline. The reasons are individualized and complex: lack of skills, fitness level (strength and endurance), limited resources to afford a proper bike (and the upkeep), accessibilty to places to ride etc etc. It seems so much easier to slip on running shoes and head out the door than it is to load the bike into a vehicle and drive to a trail, or bike park. But many of us have remained in the sport and and have grown despite barriers, set backs etc. Over time I'm more comfortable and more conditioned to find biking so much more fun and interesting the more I discover about the sport and riding with experienced cyclists

The number of female cyclists also diminishes with age. Again I would say its the perceived risk (and I would also say that is the same for men as well. eg BMX) and possibly diminished fitness. So keeping women in the sport longer is dependant on more factors. 

How to encourage more women into the sport? Women are a large demographic and it would be in the best interest of people who make a living in the cycling business (retail, manufacturing, sponsorship etc) to wake up if they want to increase their profit margins and focus on attracting female customers. I think providing opportunities to practice skills and providing support to increase fitness levels, and just increasing general knowledge about everything related to biking are good places to start are just the tip of the iceberg.


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

formica said:


> What about those of us that pee in the woods? Make the thicket thicker?


Gotta move somewhere the leaves don't fall off the shrubbery.


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

NicoleB28 said:


> how many women have their husbands run out on fun rides while they are home with the kids? I dont have kids, but i imagine that will be a big issue!
> 
> many women may not think they have the time.


I've got a friend who asks her husband to stay home with their son while we ride, and he's happy to do it!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

NicoleB28 said:


> how many women have their husbands run out on fun rides while they are home with the kids? I dont have kids, but i imagine that will be a big issue!
> 
> many women may not think they have the time.


I think this is an overstated stereotype, in that in a well balanced partnership, both folks get to play. At least this is what I've seen with couple who have an active lifestyle. They take turns to various degrees. I can't think of any couple I know where the female half _wants_ to get out and doesn't because the hubby is off all the time. W


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

More entry-level support with a longer ramp up to dirt, commuting, and such. However, that means we have to have people who understand that need, the special teaching skills to make it work, all embraced by a lot more respect for what it takes to ride a bike safely and well from both sides of the equation. I don't see a lot of people like that.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ Yes! :thumbsup: At a recent event, wifey participated in group ride while hubby watched boy; then hubby took a solo ride on the same trails. Too bad he went up the great downhill section she had mentioned!


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

I think some of the great programs for girls will make a big difference in years to come.

But some are just bike crazy from the get-go. Me:

Elementary school - rode round and round the block on my "singlespeed" ("1-speed" was good enough then)
Tried a friend's 3-speed (english racer type) and another's Stingray, nearly wiping out when I shifted the gears expecting a sportscar rocketbooster.
6th grade - my sister got a 10-speed; I borrowed it and a boy bike gang tried to take it with sticks in spokes, etc. I sprinted to safety.
H.s. - rode said sister's bike to school 5 mi in Manhattan - taxi races!
College - took said 10-speed to the college ski hill when the roads got boring
After college - said 10 speed stolen, bought a 12 speed (now a "2x6")
A couple years later, bought a newfangled "MTB" or "ATB", an '88 Ritchey Outback
And so it goes almost 25 years later...got a fatbike for the winter snowmobile trail commute! Some don't have to be encouraged, they just go.


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## Bethany1 (Jan 18, 2012)

I hate to blame they cycling industry, but in the attempt to appease the racers, they leave out everyone else. Magazines, shops, posters, commercials and other forms of media show lean, fit guys/women in spandex tearing up the road and mountains. While it looks cool, it's intimidating as well.

I was in my LBS and there was this lean skinny guy with a Specialized jersey and looked totally pro. He may have been a rep but the whole demeanor screamed professional and untouchable. He never said anything and he just looked completely bored while the kid was adjusting a bike. Maybe that's the word..untouchable. If he had started a conversation or talked about what he did, it would have been cool but I could tell he wasn't in the mood for talking. The cold demeanor of racers turn regular people off.

We need to see that any woman can a ride a bike. We need better designed bikes that appeal to a wide range of women. A WSD bike that has the same racing appeal as a men's version would be great for me. At the same time a lot of women like a softer color so I know the industry can't please everyone.

If someone brings up cycling with me, I encourage them to ride a bike. I try to be positive and approachable. 

We need encouragement from guys and our LBS. It's frustrating to come in all excited over an achievement only to get the "whatever" look. Every mile is important to a newbie.


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## lynseyf (May 1, 2007)

I think men are more likely to go out and buy a decent bike from the start, it's much easier as a newbie to hit some of the harder trails if you have some decent suspension and breaks and a bike that actually fits you. I'm not talking $6k bikes here but many women balk at even spending $1k. I have taken friends biking who have enjoyed it but they would not spend that on a bike so either spend $50 renting everytime, which makes it seem like an expensive sport, or ride their totally unsuitable commuter bike. Demo days that let women see how much fun a decent bike can be along with payment programs so they can afford that bike.


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

In my opinion, the industry as a whole needs to better - from manufacturers to the LBS to ourselves - at welcoming women into the sport. I see so many women out running, and I give them a wave from a fellow athelete. To me each of those women are potential riders, but the first step is to give them a reason to walk in the LBS door. This is where word of mouth about how eye-bleedingly awesome mountain and road cycling is comes in. We, as active riders need to talk it up with our friends (though I suspect there aren't many non-riders in our circles), we need to be out there and be seen enjoying ourselves on the lift lines, in the XC twisties and on the road. Then, once the hook is bitten, the LBS needs to reel them in with REAL and attentive service. 

Nothing turns me off as a customer more than being ignored. Having lived on both teams, I can tell any doubters out there that women tend to get ignored or written off when it comes to a complicated purchase such as a bicycle, car or computer. We aren't presumed to be as competent and serious as guys are. Its a simple and ugly fact.

So the LBS does all the right things, says all the right words and had got a real customer on their hands. Brilliant! The manufacturers have GOT to follow up with real products - bikes that are designed around women's proportions, shoes/gloves/shorts that fit and feel right (not just downsized mens gear) and protective gear that fits properly. Now when all those requirements are met, they can start worrying about whether pale blue and light green flower graphics will sell on a DH rig...


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

formica said:


> I think this is an overstated stereotype, in that in a well balanced partnership, both folks get to play. At least this is what I've seen with couple who have an active lifestyle. They take turns to various degrees. I can't think of any couple I know where the female half _wants_ to get out and doesn't because the hubby is off all the time. W


I recall witnessing an intermarital spat between at Mt Snow one fine spring Saturday. I say witnessed because it was impossible to load my gear into the car without hearing them arguing in the next car over.

The gist: Husband and Wife had agreed to split the day DHing and tending their infant. When the end of the day had come and husband hadn't relinquished the gear and ticket like they planned, wife was somewhat incensed. She *also* wanted to ride, but wasn't able to because half the pair went off and had fun on his own agenda.

Did the sport lose a rider? Possibly, but I doubt it. Did it lose an evangelist? I bet it did. And that hurts a lot more than losing a rider.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

formica said:


> I think this is an overstated stereotype, in that in a well balanced partnership, both folks get to play. At least this is what I've seen with couple who have an active lifestyle. They take turns to various degrees. I can't think of any couple I know where the female half _wants_ to get out and doesn't because the hubby is off all the time. W


 While I totally agree with you that they exist - I know a number of couples who were both into sports before having kids who balance things beautifully and equally.... I just don't get the impression that that is the situation the average mother is in. I could be wrong and there's no way to really measure that, but I'd guess there are a lot of dysfunctional relationships out there....


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Twilight Error said:


> Did the sport lose a rider? Possibly, but I doubt it. Did it lose an evangelist? I bet it did. And that hurts a lot more than losing a rider.


(this is what disappeared)

My thoughts is that it's possible that this would _encourage _a gal to promote gal's biking because then you aren't necessarily dealing with ass hat males.


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## t135 (Jul 11, 2011)

formica said:


> Where exactly are you? Many clubs all over the nation put on clinics.


I have found a local female pro who does clinics. Already got the wife and daughter signed up. Pretty cool!


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Let's compare riding bikes and knitting:

1. both activities go better if you learn from a good teacher

2. both involve initially intimidating shop experiences - one that is traditionally male, and one that is traditionally female oriented.

3. both start out with super boring "first projects" - fire roads or scarves, pick your dull-a$$ poison. Woe to the newb that tries lace or Slickrock on the first go.

4. both have a surprising cost of entry. Have you ever purchased enough merino wool for an adult-sized sweater? eff.

5. both require painful experiences to get to the truly rewarding parts. Ever faced undoing 2 months of work? Not any less painful than a flat pedal to the shin IMO.

6. both have had a recent renaissance, becoming significantly more accessible in the last 10 years to newbs. Stitch and B*tch is the WSD of the yarn world.

7. they both result in super useless skills that apply nowhere else in life. yeah, you can ride over a log or make a sweet alpaca hoodie, but neither one will get you a job unless you turn pro and there are faster ways to get fit and stay warm.

So, maybe instead of asking why don't more women ride, we could ask, what does it take to get a human being involved in a high cost, low payoff activity that bores their non-knitting/cycling friends to tears when they talk about it?

Or, maybe we can just celebrate the fact that while there aren't a ton of us, those that are around truly appreciate the subtle beauty of a perfect pedal kick and the complexity of the brioche stitch and we don't need others around to tell us it is cool.


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## Kris_on_1 (Jul 26, 2010)

In January 2010, a group of women met for an organised skills day. At the end of it, all 12 of us were immediate friends. Six months later we were still exchanging emails and flooding our inboxs with suggestions of rides and races we wanted to try. 

From that grew a website where we could plan our lives a little easier. 

These days, when we turn up to a race, there is generally 40-60 women from the one group, some fly across the country, some join in from overseas. The female participation rate at a recent 24hr race was 14% (which is average for our area, and its generally lower at club level XC races).

What stopped us from riding prior to this? We didn't know anyone to ride with. We didn't want to 'hold up' our partners when we went riding with them. We needed to find someone else that understood 'how' we rode. That we needed to stop and gossip occasionally - put us in a race and there's no stopping for chats though.

We are capable of riding technical terrains, long distances, night rides, and weekends away. We enjoy our riding exactly the same as the men, we generally turn up better organised or with morning tea to share.

So, what worked for us? Finding someone in the same boat and sharing the ride.


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## Bethany1 (Jan 18, 2012)

chuky,

I have to agree to a certain point to what you've said but regardless of the cost, the payoff is indeed worth it in the end even if no one else gets it. 

I quilt and have attempted knitting so I know where you are coming from. While it's cheaper to just go buy a quilt, the process of purchasing the fabric, the time cutting and piecing the pattern and finally quilting it creates an overwhelming payoff that doesn't have a price tag and that no one can take away.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Here's a thought: 

How are the women who are already into the sport different from those who aren't?


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

chuky said:


> Let's compare riding bikes and knitting:
> 
> 1. both activities go better if you learn from a good teacher
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: I know the feeling, but I'll tell you it's cool anyways! Great sweater and post. Don't try to get either of them onto airplanes either.


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

formica said:


> (this is what disappeared)
> 
> My thoughts is that it's possible that this would _encourage _a gal to promote gal's biking because then you aren't necessarily dealing with ass hat males.


Not all males are arse bonnets, I know because I used to be one of the good ones before changing teams. Its the inconsiderate jerks of the work that are like razor blades in the candyfloss of life.

Sent from my LG-C900 using Board Express


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

Kris_on_1 said:


> In January 2010, a group of women met for an organised skills day. At the end of it, all 12 of us were immediate friends. Six months later we were still exchanging emails and flooding our inboxs with suggestions of rides and races we wanted to try.
> 
> From that grew a website where we could plan our lives a little easier.
> 
> ...


I have been invited on a couple women only rides, they are so different from the more competitive mixed and men's rides. They tend to be more skills oriented (as opposed to speed), friendlier and more social. I much prefer the format and style of the chick rides.

Sent from my LG-C900 using Board Express


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

That was pretty much my point. That and the idea that you can look at it as something other than a gender issue if you step way back. A lot of these posts are really talking about changing the essential experience of mountain biking - removing the ideas of solitude, danger, challenge and a learned culture in order to appeal to a wider group. The knitting comparison is meant to demonstrate the inherent issues within that attempt. 

Say a knitting shop owner decided one day "Men are 50% of the population. If I can recruit from that group, I would really be stepping up and recognizing an underserved population". In surveys, this shop owner found that several natural parts of the activity didn't appeal to most guys. They found that the environment of the knitting shop was too girly, so they ditched all of the mannequins, displays of stuffed animals and baby sweaters. The knitting circle was too intimidating to break into, so they removed the communal table and instituted individual workstations with roving teachers. Projects took too long for most beginner guys so they instituted a service where they would do the boring parts for you. The reality is that while this might make it easier to get a new population to come in, the essential culture of knitting will re-assert itself. I can just picture the tiny onesies and the everlasting blanket projects sneaking back onto the premises... 

I think the same thing happens in MTB. We can do our best to make the challenge of entry less, and welcome more new riders than ever (this is happening, I have the numbers) but in the end, if the true heart of MTB does not appeal to this new participant, that rider is probably not a long term participant in the MTB community. If this person is scared to ride in the woods alone, doesn't enjoy trying the same painful move over and over, needs the constant acknowledgement of others to feel good about accomplishments, if pace-moderated group rides are the only acceptable format, then there are a lot of extra barriers this rider has created and must get over. The slowest way is to wait for shops and SOs to guide them thru the challenges.

Do I think Title 9 is essential? Yes. Teaching young girls to be active and healthy is the only right thing to do. I also know that making bike shops more accessible to both genders is just good business sense, and the strong shops have been doing this for years. My first shop job was at a woman-owned shop 20 years ago — we were making bikes with custom short top tubes and drilled out saddle noses 10 years ahead of the industry. Because of this, we had a (relatively) huge population of active women who shopped there, but it never came close to equaling the male population. 

I happen to live in a city where the MTB population is close to 30 or 40% women. IMO, this is a cultural thing — people move to Utah specifically for the outdoors and we all need a winter and a summer sport. The women I know are some of the toughest and most independent sportswomen I have ever met. But even here, MTB competes with sports like yoga, running and crossfit for the attention of the female population, none of which have the same challenges of skill, cost of entry or isolation to deal with.


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Here's a thought:
> 
> How are the women who are already into the sport different from those who aren't?


i hate to be stereotypical here, but i have seen this....
some girls dont like to get dirty. Maybe their childhood was more "clean" and thats what they're used to. I hung out with boys (brothers) and we rode and got dirty all the time. It was a time in my life that i missed.

when i started getting back into MTB, i became covered in cuts and bruises all over my legs, (other girls were like "i cant believe you would show your legs looking like that!") and the inside of my car was always being caked with mud, my car would get scratched up from my bike and rack, etc.

its a dirty muddy and bloody and expensive sport! Many girls just arent used to that, and they're typically not encouraged to do so either. Sometimes i get bummed out that i'll never be as strong and fast as the guys i ride with. thats another deterrent i guess. But i deal with it.


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## mudgirl (Jun 19, 2007)

NicoleB28 said:


> i hate to be stereotypical here, but i have seen this....
> some girls dont like to get dirty. Maybe their childhood was more "clean" and thats what they're used to. I hung out with boys (brothers) and we rode and got dirty all the time. It was a time in my life that i missed. .


I can see that. My sister and I grew up in a neighborhood full of boys. I used to climb trees, run through the woods, ride my bike, and get dirty, just like all the boys. So that's what I'm used to.

My co-workers are horrified by the cuts and bruises I come in with, especially last summer when I came in with a deep gash on my chin after face-planting on a rock. They're like, "And this is.... fun???" Heck yeah!!! Back at it the next day!! Different strokes for different folks. It's been my experience that people either love mountain biking or they hate it. I encourage the ones who want to ride; I don't waste my time trying to encourage people who are clearly not into it. That goes for both men and women.


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

When I told one of my coworkers of my transition, she was amazed I planned to keep riding DH. I'd do strange and possibly illegal things to be as fast as some of the women I've seen on the hills.

Sent from my LG-C900 using Board Express


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

chuky said:


> Let's compare riding bikes and knitting:
> ...
> 5. both require painful experiences to get to the truly rewarding parts. Ever faced undoing 2 months of work? Not any less painful than a flat pedal to the shin IMO.
> ...


...and then you accidentally wash it in warm water and turns into a piece of felt. :madman:

gabrielle

PS cute sweater!


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Christieland said:


> I think showing inspiring images of sexy, attractive women (everyone loves pretty girls, even girls) playing and competing with skill. Having fun. Showing that they can be accomplished, skilled, competitive, and feminine.
> 
> Lots of movies from the past fifteen years are starting to show ass kicking hot women...many women are still hung up on not being able to do things that are not considered feminine. It sucks...


But see, this is still inherently sexist and unwelcoming. There is a lot of discourse about this in the scholarly circles that focus on pop-culture. I happen to have a friend who is one of the foremost Buffy the Vampire Slayer experts (crazy job, huh?) - her take on the sexism women force upon themselves via approved representations is pretty interesting.

If a woman has to be attractive to bring women into the sport, what does that say to women who aren't conventionally attractive? The women who aren't the color depicted in the poster? Dudes don't have to be hot to be admired.

When I work with my athletes, one of the things I specifically tell the women is that being friendly and good at your job will ensure a long career and a transition to a desk job when you retire. Taking hot-girl pin up pics works for about 5-10 years and no one will remember your athletic accomplishments when you have reached a stage where you don't want to do pin-ups anymore. There is nothing wrong with asserting your sexuality, but it does change what people remember about you.



I have always found this entertaining:
Women Fighters In Reasonable Armor

And this:





Female Armor Sucks - CollegeHumor Video

If you are interested in a more academic take:


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

chuky said:


> A lot of these posts are really talking about changing the essential experience of mountain biking - removing the ideas of solitude, danger, challenge and a learned culture in order to appeal to a wider group.


+1. Well said.

gabrielle


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

chuky said:


> the idea that you can look at it as something other than a gender issue if you step way back.
> QUOTE]
> 
> It's nice to see this thinking. Please notice I did not say I was surprised. These are issues about humans first.
> ...


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

Thank you.

While I appreciate that we have come a long way from "all female athletes are *****," we really don't have to swing the pendulum the other way. I have a 14 year old daughter, her first track meet is today, without sounding too biased, she is attractive. I want her to feel confident about her ability and I know the coach has focused on the individuals desires to succeed and talents. The last thing she needs is to be taught that her looks are important at the track. Even when she was dancing, I was grateful to her teacher, who put the emphasis on talent and desire, not on looks. 

Or how about a completely different way to look at it: Would you choose the attractive CPA or the one with the best track record and experience?


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

And I guess maybe I shouldn't put so much emphasis on performance, as this is a thread to get more woman involved, but I think you get the idea.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

screampint said:


> And I guess maybe I shouldn't put so much emphasis on performance, as this is a thread to get more woman involved, but I think you get the idea.


But in the long run, being involved in a sport IS about performance. A bunch of riders that never learn how to get their wheel over an obstacle are not really learning the sport and won't stay in the sport. It won't be fun.

The fact that performance and skills progression are dirty words in the WL is interesting... I posted an earlier thread about what specific skill did people want to work on this season, and asked how were they going to do it - most of the answers were about confidence and fear - very unspecific. Not one person said "I am going to practice X until I get good at it and being good at X will make me more confident when it comes to new challenges". THAT is the reason most guys progress faster. They are specific. They tend to pick a skill and make it happen. They recognize that skill building equals increased confidence. Talking about lacking confidence equals fear.


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

OK, a more serious answer than the wine and chocolate (but I do think that might work!).

Just over a year ago, a friend of mine started a Facebook group for women in the the area to connect for mountain biking. Soon after, she realized that she should make sure that the roadies were included, too. Our group offered slow, intermediate, and advanced rides, some weekly, some monthly (a freeride skills session will be offered monthly). The leaders and "teachers" are all women. There are some men in the group, but they are rare, and are bike shop people, trail advocacy people, and the like, their input is to inform us about events and advocacy issues, only. Right now we have about 300 members, most of the women are local and many of them joined to see what cycling was about. With such a big group, there is always a loaner bike for the friend who is interested, but doesn't know how to get started, and extra equipment is many times available, too. It's a big group in an overall population of about 120,000 for the entire Grand Valley.

If you're ever in the area, looks us up on Facebook :https://www.facebook.com/groups/338465622420/


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

Very true. But confidence is a big factor in getting better. At the beginning of our women's group, the focus was on teaching skills and getting people out in a social and fun atmosphere. Now, it's also a great place to find training partners and people that might push you further in your skill set.

So, yes, learning skills is important, otherwise it's just a hike with a bike.


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## Drummerboy1975 (Nov 24, 2011)

formica said:


> What about those of us that pee in the woods? Make the thicket thicker?


Who cares? It's just peeing. Everyone does it. If someone wants to watch me, more power to them.

That would be like getting mad because someone wanted to see me do my taxs.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

So which comes first, the confidence or the practice?  Knowing you can do something is the denotative definition of confidence.

1. a : a feeling or consciousness of one's powers or of reliance on one's circumstances <had perfect confidence in her ability to succeed> <met the risk with brash confidence>

b : faith or belief that one will act in a right, proper, or effective way <have confidence in a leader>

2 : the quality or state of being certain : certitude <they had every confidence of success>​
On a side note, gonna be interesting to see how many negative reps I get for these posts, heh. Sometimes I miss Irie.


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## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

I think it's nature and nurture. I have too many friends who say that from the beginning their sons gravitated toward more "adventurous" activities compared to their daughters to think that there's not some nature involved. On the other hand, more people express a lot more surprise (some of them tell me I'm crazy) that I mountain bike compared to my husband. 

Many people start mountain biking because a friend invites them to go. A guy is much more likely to encourage a guy to mountain bike (unless the girl is a girlfriend) than a random female. A girl is more likely to encourage a girl to mountain bike (unless the guy is a boyfriend). There are many more guys out there encouraging other guys than girls encouraging other girls. That's problem #1. 

Problem #2 is that a lot of girls feel that they can't do it. I went through this. I started mountain biking on my own, but when I found others who did it and got on some technical trails with them I was on the verge of deciding that I would never be able to do these trails (and I was too old to start etc. etc.) and I'll just stick to the easy trails and bike on my own. Thankfully, I persevered and the bikers in the group were very patient and now single-speed on the trails that almost broke me. Having adequate beginner rides or girls rides will help more women over this hump. A lot of girls go through a phase where they never think the'll get 'there' and I tell this story to every girl who expresses these feelings and that gives them the confidence that they can get through it too.

I notice that a relatively large proportion of female mountain bikers (especially those who didn't start because their husbands mountain bike) are in traditionally male-oriented fields like engineering. Is it because they are more comfortable participating in male-dominated activities?


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

miatagal96 said:


> I notice that a relatively large proportion of female mountain bikers (especially those who didn't start because their husbands mountain bike) are in traditionally male-oriented fields like engineering. Is it because they are more comfortable participating in male-dominated activities?


Yes.


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

chuky said:


> Yes.


Seconded.

Sent from my LG-C900 using Board Express


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

chuky said:


> On a side note, gonna be interesting to see how many negative reps I get for these posts, heh. Sometimes I miss Irie.


Ha! I never know what will warrant a neg. repping. I've had photo/video posts get negative rep! Just brush it off, I suppose.


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

screampint said:


> Ha! I never know what will warrant a neg. repping. I've had photo/video posts get negative rep! Just brush it off, I suppose.


I got negative rep for calling my road bike a "roadie". I stopped worrying about it.

Sent from my LG-C900 using Board Express


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

The girls with whom I have worked who seemed to catch on and progress the quickest were trained in sport by their fathers. Once the group aged 2-3 years in our process, that difference seemed to be much reduced.

What this indicates is curious: the girls who naturally might take this up are predisposed to hang it out there a bit more. Those are the females who might have gotten themselves into mtb as many here have done. To utilize a concept found in this forum, that left the Barbie Girls out. 

With programs specifically designed to train riders gradually, as opposed to trial and error, the population of women (and men) who can get involved in this sport and succeed changes radically.

It is pretty much the same for marginally athletic boys. One kid I had as a 13 y/o in my YMCA mtb class wasn't nearly the athlete his bro and sis were. In his 3rd year of the High School team he simply says, "now I can do the fun stuff.":thumbsup:


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

i have a problem with shyness (can you believe it?) my bf is always urging me to get with women's groups. i'm not a bad rider, but i get worried i will be the one slowing down the group, because most of the time, when i meet a woman who mountain bikes, they are older and more experienced. i get so nervous! Riding with men gets me super nervous too because i'm always worried they are silently thinkng "who brought the girl?" Luckily, the small group of guys i ride with already knows me, and seem ok with it...

but a total noob getting involved in a group might get scared away, especially if sexist additudes get thrown around (seen it happen).


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Drummerboy1975 said:


> Who cares? It's just peeing. Everyone does it. If someone wants to watch me, more power to them.
> 
> That would be like getting mad because someone wanted to see me do my taxs.


With a handle like "Drummeboy 1975" I will assume you are male and have a different perspective, so that's easy for you to say. Some women are really shy about this, or they don't know how to do it. Really. There is an art to balancing with your shorts down and not peeing on your feet.


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## Twilight Error (Jan 12, 2004)

formica said:


> With a handle like "Drummeboy 1975" I will assume you are male and have a different perspective, so that's easy for you to say. Some women are really shy about this, or they don't know how to do it. Really. There is an art to balancing with your shorts down and not peeing on your feet.


And lets not go there on finding wipe materials.


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

there is no "wipe"....only squeegee! eek!


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-...........:eekster:


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## Christieland (Mar 12, 2012)

chuky said:


> But see, this is still inherently sexist and unwelcoming. There is a lot of discourse about this in the scholarly circles that focus on pop-culture. I happen to have a friend who is one of the foremost Buffy the Vampire Slayer experts (crazy job, huh?) - her take on the sexism women force upon themselves via approved representations is pretty interesting.
> 
> If a woman has to be attractive to bring women into the sport, what does that say to women who aren't conventionally attractive? The women who aren't the color depicted in the poster? Dudes don't have to be hot to be admired.
> 
> When I work with my athletes, one of the things I specifically tell the women is that being friendly and good at your job will ensure a long career and a transition to a desk job when you retire. Taking hot-girl pin up pics works for about 5-10 years and no one will remember your athletic accomplishments when you have reached a stage where you don't want to do pin-ups anymore. There is nothing wrong with asserting your sexuality, but it does change what people remember about you.


Sexist, yes, but unfortunately so many women today operate under inherently sexist notions and "approved representations." To bring more women into the sport, it is my belief that this representation is effective but will evolve, over time, past this.

I think of a good friend of mine who is 27. Loves girlie shows and Bravo TV, but also rides a motorcycle, rides dirt bikes, and has started mountain biking for fitness. The more sporty, independent attitudes I've always seen her have have been eroding; I attribute this to her boyfriend. We were riding on a trail a month ago and she was like, "my nose keeps running." "Blow it on the trail," I said, "or on your gloves, that's what I do!" "Boyfriend doesn't like it when I do things that are 'unfeminine.'" I almost fell over...this is a girl who used to happily, and drunkenly, pee on the side of the road on pub crawls in college and waterskis, snoboards, skis, etc. like a champ...made me sad.

I guess my point is that there are a lot of women like her. That are either under the spell of society, or their men, and want to be found attractive and sexy, and won't do anything that isn't perceived as such.

P.S. I would LOVE to have a drink and talk boys and girls with you and your Buffy friend - rad job!

P.P.S. Boyfriend was also about a quarter mile up the trail from us - dude just straight up put his headphones in and split. I like that my man either rides with me, or we do our own rides.


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## Christieland (Mar 12, 2012)

P.P.P.S. He also hadn't shown her how to shift into the small front ring. While climbing: "omg, this is so much easier!" UGH. She's really good at technical stuff too, much better than I was when I got started.


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## PixieChik (Jul 10, 2010)

I love this discussion. 

I've been riding alone for a few years because I'm fearful of being too old, too slow, too timid, not athletic enough. But I love riding so much, and I want to find others who love it too. My homemade strategy has been to ask around work (healthcare field, not engineering) the other females who might like to ride with the idea of creating a local community like Kris described, on a smaller basis. I joined the local mountain bike association so I can try out the group rides (first one tomorrow!). I have dreams of getting a group going, but maybe my best bet would be to move back West and join the fun in progress.

I think it is hard to be a stereotypical delicate female with the dirt, bruises and scars that come with mountain biking (at least if you wreck as often as I do...maybe that's a bad thing?). For myself, the "delicate flower" stereotype is not an image I value, so it's easy to shrug off another shin gash or arm scratch.

There is the added element of being interested in mechanical stuff, including how it functions and how to fix it. I'm addressing my own lack of education in this area by asking a lot of questions at my LBS, watching videos at the Park Tools website, and looking at bike repair books. I plan to take a bike mechanic adult ed course if one is offered nearby. My perception of stereotypical femininity doesn't include grease or mechanical stuff.

To answer the original question of how to encourage more women bikers, I think starting with kids or teenagers would be an excellent start. Speaking from my own 47 year old experience, non-competitive local group rides and clinics with a community of like-minded active outdoor-lovers would be the ideal way to introduce new people to the sport.

But to return to the knitting metaphor, there has to be a basic desire to do it for the intrinsic value of the activity. I think women need to possess a combination of character traits including nonconformity, tolerance of minor injuries, a love of the outdoors, and tolerance for dirt, sweat, and messed up hair before mountain biking even sounds fun. Then there are the barriers of appropriate level trails, gear, and riding partners who want to teach, as well as fellow beginners to share the process of learning.

There my metaphor breaks down. I'm not sure what character traits are needed for knitting. . Perseverance? Manual dexterity, for sure...


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

chuky said:


> On a side note, gonna be interesting to see how many negative reps I get for these posts, heh. Sometimes I miss Irie.


Heh, I keep getting the "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to chuky again." :thumbsup: from me.

gabrielle


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ :thumbsup: I was shocked to see that didn't happen to me this a.m.

Wow! Nice to see so much to catch up on in the WL this evening.


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## Christieland (Mar 12, 2012)

screampint said:


> Or how about a completely different way to look at it: Would you choose the attractive CPA or the one with the best track record and experience?


Except that sports is entertainment...not trying to save you money on your taxes 

Of the Forbes list of the top ten highest paid female athletes, seven are tennis players. Who wear SKIRTS. I think this is driven by viewership, making me think that people, men and women, are more likely to be interested in viewing female athletes who are either attractive or on display in some feminine, "approved" fashion. What if female soccer players wore sport skirts? I've also been fascinated by the brouhaha over skirts in women's boxing: Female boxers will not be forced to wear skirts at the Olympics

As much as I love a beautiful tennis outfit (former life as a tennis player) I'm hopeful society will evolve beyond gravitating primarily towards "sexy" or attractive female athletes; our SF news radio regularly covers women's basketball, something I don't recall a decade ago. We've definitely come a long way, in 1972, the year Title IX was enacted, 294,000 girls in school played sports compared to 3.6MM boys. Now, it's 3.3MM girls vs 4.4 MM boys, and way less "****" stereotype.

Like I said, I hope we'll evolve. For right now, seems like everyone still loves pretty athletes.

At least your pretty daughter is doing something sporty for herself, and is not just on the sidelines cheering for the "real" athletes as a cheerleader. It's hard for an attractive teenage girl to not sense or observe the power she has from her looks, no matter how capable, intelligent, skilled, etc. she might be...


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## mudgirl (Jun 19, 2007)

PixieChik said:


> I have dreams of getting a group going, but maybe my best bet would be to move back West and join the fun in progress.


Don't give up your dream. I had a similar dream 5 years ago, after I took a women's mtb clinic 5 hours away. I thought, wouldn't it be great to have a group like this to ride with in my hometown so I didn't have to drive 5 hours to do something like this? Anything that was local to me was very poorly organized and/or under the radar. It took a few years, but by working through the local bike clubs, I have been leading well-publicized weekly "social" rides for about 3 years. We've organized a couple skills clinics, too. Now the local mtb scene has experienced a major resuscitation.We finally got organized this past year, and we became an IMBA chapter a couple weeks ago. We have a pretty large core group of riders now, working together to help other mtbers become better riders, and making our local trail systems better places to ride. So don't give up!


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## screampint (Dec 10, 2001)

PixieChik said:


> To answer the original question of how to encourage more women bikers, I think starting with kids or teenagers would be an excellent start. Speaking from my own 47 year old experience, non-competitive local group rides and clinics with a community of like-minded active outdoor-lovers would be the ideal way to introduce new people to the sport.


Yes! The group I ride with started out with just a bunch of us wanting to connect with others. And I've met so many new friends. Previous to the Singletrack Sisters, I started a women's shop ride and it was similar, but never had the 300 participants that the Sister has. Opening it up to any and all is key.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Christieland said:


> P.P.P.S. He also hadn't shown her how to shift into the small front ring. While climbing: "omg, this is so much easier!" UGH.


This is common form people who don't understand how to train new riders. Highly developed riders can eschew the granny as unnecessary as they have enough power to not need it. For riders who are developing in so many ways the small front ring develops low speed balance as well as managing high torque situations.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Not sure about the "beauty" thing.*

I find athletes beautiful but I am a photographer, coach, father. Pro athletes are magnificently beautiful, not just in their static presence, but in the way they move and the attitudes they express by their motion. (I have absolutely no interest in anything "close-up and personal" with pro athletes.)

For the evolving athlete beauty is something that emerges over time. Sometimes it is a thing discovered or uncovered or simply a thing finally manifest with maturity. I see it in the women's ride group we have developed in our local trails council. Clearly few women have that commercial hourglass body sold as beauty but all of our women are beautiful; you hear it in their voices and see it in their eyes. Even in the newer riders you know that vitality and hope are at issue and see the beauty of the aspiration.

Skirts? I think that has little to do with being attractive and more to do with old stereotypes for women's attire, now masked by arguments of tradition. The sheer practicality of sports gear will soon relegate skirts to the past.


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## godsang (May 24, 2010)

I think clinics geared for women are an excellent way to get women to ride. In an environment that's low pressure and upbeat, a woman can feel better about trying things that are scary or intimidating. I went to Ray's Indoor Mountain Bike Park for the women's weekend and had a ball. There were so many obstacles, ramps, skinnies, and teeter totters... stuff I never would have tried if I was on a group ride with a bunch of guys. When encourage and support each other to try new challenges. I think there's a healthy sort of competition. Not like, "I'm better than her," but more like "Wow, she can do that? Well, then I think I can do that too!" I think if bike shops sponsored women's only rides, it would help increase the number of women in cycling.


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## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

I think that bike rides run by women and some women-only rides help women who are starting out. However, when women-oriented rides started in our area, we lost a lot of women from our regular co-ed rides to the women-oriented rides. A lot of women say that their family responsibilities only allow them to ride once a week unfortunately. 

One of our local bike shops has women's wine and cheese events on a regular basis. I'm planning to go this Saturday. I think it's a great idea, especially since I like wine and bikes.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

godsang;9172724 Ray's Indoor Mountain Bike Park for the women's weekend and had a ball. There were so many obstacles said:


> What you are describing is not a ride but a clinic or lab which focuses on skills building. When I lead my noob rides we warm up on about 4 miles of pave so people can get loose and shake down their bikes. That important step accomplished we work a lot on technique and sessioning specific areas. After a while, though, you can see everyone's eyes glaze over. _Then_ we go out and ride.:thumbsup: Lots of "whoo-hoos!"
> 
> After the ride we all hang out with food and drink for about an hour. There I discovered a funny thing. The more advanced riders were covering the same ground, at more speed and more distance, but their failure rate on the same switchbacks was higher than ours.
> 
> Leading from behind is huge fun. When your riders move forward to the other groups they have a nice foundation.


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## zazzafrazz (Apr 12, 2012)

way to go ! startimg your own riding group.
i have a hard time finding women to ride with even though I only live minutes from a great beginner trail and a huge park with miles of trails. most of the women I have met only ride with their husbands.

years ago when i paddled rivers I had lots of good folks to paddle with and I really miss that with my biking. hope to gremedy that at the women's dirt series on may 4,5.

---
Oops! was supposed to quote someone... I post from my phone only so things get a little squirrely because mtbr is not phone friendly.


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## zazzafrazz (Apr 12, 2012)

wow cool ! yes i live in the bay 
area - Gilroy. pm coming your way. 

-Marianne


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## jenniferg (Nov 1, 2011)

Zazza and Stripes - I'm in San Jose and would like to ride with you. Unfortunately I don't think I can PM yet - not enough posts. Feel free to send one to me.

Jennifer


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## PixieChik (Jul 10, 2010)

I have found my first fellow female beginner! Her hubby gave her a mt bike for her birthday, and we are going out to ride on Friday!


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## Julie (Jul 26, 2005)

Third. Working in a male dominated field lets you know you CAN and WILL succeed by just working at it and persevering...and ignoring the gender stereotypes. If it works on the job...why not on the bike ? and so on....


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

I know I'm going to get shelled for this but the plain truth is....most girls/women aren't interested in sports where you are sure to get dirty and might get seriously hurt. I'm sure part of that is genetic and part of it is societal (is that even a word?). My 19 year old daughter started riding with me last year but my wife has no desire and even cringes watching videos we make where we ride. Even though my daughter has ridden dirt bikes for 10 years and has always been super active and competitive, I'm constantly having to keep her thinking positive when we come to hill climbs, rocky obstacles, etc... Lucky for me, she has the Type A mentality and keeps after it.

We only have (1) female rider in our group and she is 52 years old. She is a great rider *by any standard* but still backs way off on sketchy terrain. If my daughter gets 1/2 as good as she is, I'd be ecstatic. I will say though that I just came back from the Fruita Fat Tire Festival and saw more women riders in one day than I've seen in 20+ years of riding in SoCal...I was totally impressed.


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## Julie (Jul 26, 2005)

Unless a person (male or female) is on the high end of the "hardy" scale, mountain biking may not be the right sport for them anyway, and I'm careful about encouraging women friends to come out if they don't do anything else requiring grit. EVERYONE in my riding group has had their share of injuries...clavicle fractures, AC separations, concussions, broken ankle, broken femur, broken pelvis, broken ribs, dislocated fingers in the past 7-8 years. And we are an older group of relatively capable but cautious, non-radical riders ! We do ride in San Diego which is home of the rocky and rolly, steep up and steep down....and the percent of female riders here is low compared to Colorado and Utah. I did notice though that Fruita and Crested Butte had tons of female riders while Gooseberry and Little Creek did not...not sure why that is. 
I remember riding in a group with a relatively new-to-the-sport woman (wearing no armor) who fell so hard and so often on a difficult trail I couldn't believe she was still going at it 2 hours later. Turns out she was a champion female boxer...yep...that girl could take a punch !


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

k2rider1964 said:


> I know I'm going to get shelled for this but the plain truth is....most girls/women aren't interested in sports where you are sure to get dirty and might get seriously hurt. I'm sure part of that is genetic and part of it is societal (is that even a word?). My 19 year old daughter started riding with me last year but my wife has no desire and even cringes watching videos we make where we ride. Even though my daughter has ridden dirt bikes for 10 years and has always been super active and competitive, I'm constantly having to keep her thinking positive when we come to hill climbs, rocky obstacles, etc... Lucky for me, she has the Type A mentality and keeps after it.
> 
> We only have (1) female rider in our group and she is 52 years old. She is a great rider *by any standard* but still backs way off on sketchy terrain. If my daughter gets 1/2 as good as she is, I'd be ecstatic. I will say though that I just came back from the Fruita Fat Tire Festival and saw more women riders in one day than I've seen in 20+ years of riding in SoCal...I was totally impressed.


I'm not going to shell you... but this argument does get tiresome. There's some truth to it, but what about all the men who won't mountain bike for whatever reason - it doesn't involve a ball or a motor, too risky etc etc?


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

formica said:


> I'm not going to shell you... but this argument does get tiresome. There's some truth to it, but what about all the men who won't mountain bike for whatever reason - it doesn't involve a ball or a motor, too risky etc etc?


I took up road cycling at 42, and I met many "former mountain bikers" who switched to road because they found it less demanding. I was introduced to mountain biking a few years later and I persevered to learn in order to share the fun and time with my husband plus I love challenge (I found it a steep learning curve over a short period of time) Now I;m addicted to downhilling and practice to master those skills. I haven't met too many men (or women) who take up a more physically demanding sport or activity as they get older but it does happen.

A lot of people don't like to learn new extreme sports either because of fear of injury or fear of humiliation if they fail.

As many have stated previously it helps to be introduced at either a young age or else the person has to be motivated to learn and find reason to develop.


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## zazzafrazz (Apr 12, 2012)

^^"...fear of humiliation if they fail..." Yes a BIG reason why eople do not allow themselves to go outside their comfort zone and learn a new skill or sport. I know men and women who will not try something new simply because they are afraid of being incompetent, or of being a beginner.
Also, a lot of people simply do not like outdoor sports.


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## LindsayBC (May 19, 2012)

t135 said:


> My wife loves it. She would love to take a skills class for women but they are all on the west coast or in Canada. Lame.


Yes it is lame, but it is not true! I am an event host and promoter of the Womens Freeride Movement that has been spawning on the west coast... however I grew up in CT and I have been looking to see whats up.... Highland Bike Park is offering a bunch of womens skills clinics this year and a Womens Freeride Festival. I would love to travel back east to hold my own clinic or event.. please spread my website ShineRidersCo.com, the more people know about what is already going on, and the more interest that is generated, the sooner we can bring more fun to the east!


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## kinsler (Sep 13, 2011)

cyclelicious said:


> I took up road cycling at 42, and I met many "former mountain bikers" who switched to road because they found it less demanding. I was introduced to mountain biking a few years later and I persevered to learn in order to share the fun and time with my husband plus I love challenge (I found it a steep learning curve over a short period of time) Now I;m addicted to downhilling and practice to master those skills. I haven't met too many men (or women) who take up a more physically demanding sport or activity as they get older but it does happen.
> 
> A lot of people don't like to learn new extreme sports either because of fear of injury or fear of humiliation if they fail.
> 
> As many have stated previously it helps to be introduced at either a young age or else the person has to be motivated to learn and find reason to develop.


I've noticed a slightly different trend with my racing comrades...
I initially started off as a mountain biker, in part as an escape from soccer which I played in college and played for 16 years. I then got introduced to road cycling in grad school and started racing becoming a "hard core roadie." I then moved but kept my team affiliation in Virginia. My team is an all women's team and what I have noticed over the past several years is that most of the women are now racing more mountain bikes than road bikes. I moved again and now my road bike collects dust and I haven't race a road race in almost 1.5 years. I think this is partially due to great trail access in VA (Richmond) and in El Paso where I'm living. I also think having a built in network of female riding partners helps introduce the sport to other with an already strong cycling background. And let's just face it... road biking, in particular racing, can be very caddy (yes, I said it). Mountain biking is just more fun.
My 2 cents...


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

I have to think a lack of beginner trails contributes. Even when beginner trails get built, it is apparent that mots trail builders haven't ridden with a beginner in a loooong time. My wife rides a little bit (likes the horses more - that's cool) and we went riding last year with another couple on a beginner trail in our area. The women were both off the bikes and walking on quite a few switchback turns (I'm not talking about exposed Aspen, CO switchbacks, just mild gentle turns that were a little tighter than they could handle. My friends' wife tipped over in one of the last turns in sight of the lodge and broke her ankle. SO much for beginner trail, and we probably won't see her on a bike again.

I also rode last year with a former collegiate ski racer. It turns out that this woman who likes going 60 mph on ice is terrified of going 6 mph on dirt. We are planning to go and ride some lift-served dirt with her and my daughter this summer. The thinking being that if a 9 year-old can do it, she probably can too.

Now of course, the funny thing is that men seem to be able to learn how to mountain bike and like it without the benefit of really perfect beginner trails. Explain that.


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## Firecrackerktm (Jul 16, 2009)

I might go against the flow a little bit here. I will say I've been a tomboy since day 1, so maybe my opinion isn't totally applicable.

I find mixed rides more fun than all-female rides, and I ride with just guys sometimes. I'm still a beginner, and I'm married so there's no possibility of hooking up or anything; I think guys who are willing to just go for a ride with anybody tend to be more accepting and less pushy. They also don't go in for the whole overdone enouragement thing. If I'm struggling (as in, slowest in the group by far), and someone tells me how GREAT I'm doing, I don't believe her and I find it annoys me. I understand that she means well and is trying to be encouraging, but for some reason it just doesn't help. Some of my male riding buddies just wait while I pick myself up or get my breath back and then we go again. No big deal, no cheerleading.

I've seen in some all women's groups that there is some unhealthy competition, too. I've had some girls be seriously snarky to others on rides. Insecurity? Who knows. But it didn't make me want to ride with her again.

Finally, and this is just me and I understand I need to get over it, but if I go with a group of thin, fit women who are great bike riders, I feel a little down on myself for being out of shape and carrying some extra weight. It's not like they've EVER said anything, it is just in my own mind, but there it is. I feel more comfortable around a group with a wider range of body types and skill levels. 

So, in the end, I don't prefer women's-only rides, but I think they do have their place for a lot of people.


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## glance2 (Jul 24, 2008)

Two things:
1. I was riding my road bike and came across 5 girls riding bikes to school together. I thought it was great. Later in life they will feel comfortable picking the sport back up again if they stopped riding for whatever reason. Get them hooked on riding when they are young and more fearless. 

2. Most comments I hear from prospective female riders is the safety issues, like fear of crashing or getting hit by a car, etc. They would love to start riding, but face it, there is a certain amount of risk involved. Just like anything else, it takes education and even mentoring.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

For the women who already ride the idea of skills-building fits into their mtb dynamic. What we are talking about here are involving women who don't experience mtb in that fashion. Talking to women who have self-started in mtb is very different than talking to those who aren't. In some sense that self-starting perspective just doesn't fit as the assumptions and requirements are not the same for those who are not self-starting.

In a more population-general sense simply demonstrating that there is a place for new riders, that they will be welcome, supported, have an experience in venues that are reasonable places to start new riders, and have fun, will do wonders. That context provides a gradual learning and stamina building setting for a firm foundation. Speed, rock-gardens, and all that other stuff comes much later.

I don't know how many of you have been doing this for a long time but I recall a disparaging term used by many women in the sport not too many years back: Barbie Girls. These women, for reasons we now discuss here, were considered incapable of doing mtb. In my years of coaching I have found that what is needed for _anyone_ was specific kinds of well-understood support which, comprehensively applied, bring all sorts of women forward.

Here are my Barbie Girls; though you may just see their backsides on the trail.


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

zazzafrazz said:


> I know men and women who will not try something new simply because they are afraid of being incompetent, or of being a beginner.


This is why I decided not to learn to golf or snowboard. 
It takes WAY too long to stop being a beginner at golfing. 
And after 20 years of skiing, I wasn't ready to go back to being a beginner long enough to learn to snowboard. Besides, falling down so much HURT.
Guess I am getting inflexible in me later years...


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## Firecrackerktm (Jul 16, 2009)

MtbRN said:


> This is why I decided not to learn to golf or snowboard.
> It takes WAY too long to stop being a beginner at golfing.
> And after 20 years of skiing, I wasn't ready to go back to being a beginner long enough to learn to snowboard. Besides, falling down so much HURT.
> Guess I am getting inflexible in me later years...


Nah I hear you there ... I have too much trouble trying to maintain/grow my skills in the sports I already do, nevermind trying to do and be everything on the planet.

Hubby started golfing 2 years ago ... I tell him go have fun.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Julie said:


> Ut. EVERYONE in my riding group has had their share of injuries...clavicle fractures, AC separations, concussions, broken ankle, broken femur, broken pelvis, broken ribs, dislocated fingers in the past 7-8 years.


This is no longer necessary and can change but athletes have to be willing to change the way they enter the sport. The learn-by-trial-and-error paradigm _was_ the only way to get into mtb, just as entering the sport through male influence has been the predominant way to enter the sport.

Independent of gender issues the sport is evolving. Experience is evolving into understanding principles. The tight and exclusive cabal of riding buds is reforming into community. The accumulated knowledge is being passed down to the next generation of riders: kids and adults who defy the old stereotypes who once defined the sport.

The breadth of understanding appreciates a gradual nature of acquiring ability as opposed to riding until you crash or trying so hard to keep up with the group or SO. It unearths a truth that injury is not a necessary element of learning but that preparation and structured growth is essential. The broken collarbone, once a marque of honor, can now be seen as something quite different; no longer a random "that happens" or "that is a part of learning the sport." It can be seen as something which reveals a lack of understanding what an individual is capable of in a particular setting, poor stamina, poor nutrition/hydration, poorly maintained bikes, inattentive coaching, unrealistic expectations, desperation, and such.

Look; we are all a bunch of pretty bright people and it doesn't take a genius to see that all this mtb stuff can be pulled together in a pile, organized, understood and transmitted for a much better experience. Where we really stumble is through some individualistic resistance to being trained unless we hit a wall or are just so confounded that we finally decide that we need _something_. All of this really begs a a respect for the sport which is often lacking.

On one hand training programs which build from the ground up are almost unheard of. These are the most successful at training riders for power, speed, and safety. What they demand, however, is dedication and discipline over time and appreciating one's limits. What you get are very well-rounded athletes who make a group ride a joy both as comrades _and_ assets.

On the other hand you have "skills programs" created by very skilled and hard working people which do their best to embrace riders to rehearse them through certain iconic challenges. These challenges are often defined by the applicants themselves who perceive that they have a problem with this feature or that feature. This is similar to someone with a medical problem going to a doctor with a diagnosis based upon who knows what. As such the problem is most likely something quite different and more fundamental.

These programs never can really mitigate gaps in fundamental ability, skills, or athletic development. As an aside I just got off the phone with a friend who took up mtb 5 years ago. He just learned, last Saturday, about cross-chaining. As such, it is not the programs which are at fault but a simple circumstance of having to try and manage the enormous range of chaotically built riders with ego complexities. (Keep in mind that the best professional athletic programs, when they run into problems, go back to the basics. Great athletes understand this.) That said, even those programs are relatively rare. Hats off to all who do this work.

So:

What Will Encourage More Women To Bike?

Why would anyone want to get into a sport where "clavicle fractures, AC separations, concussions, broken ankle, broken femur, broken pelvis, broken ribs, dislocated fingers" is in many ways simply seen as part of the learning curve?

The answer is understanding our roles in learning and teaching.


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## Heartlostangel (Jun 21, 2012)

Well, I don't even have a bike yet, so I can speak with a little bit of what's going through our minds  
As a stay at home mother of two with a recently paved(yes, I'd start out riding on a paved trail, they're all over place in my town) trail literally 20 feet outside my back door on the other side of the fence, I really really WANT to ride. I want to crochet a little holder for my phone so I can listen to mp3s as I go, and leave the kids with either my husband when he's home, or their grandparents when he's on the road for work, and go for a bike ride. I want to lose some weight and move into dirt trails, but at the same time, I need to be able to do leisure rides with my kids as well as quick errands around town. I have no source of information about bikes for bigger ladies. The LBS is owned by a man who doesn't open when he doesn't want to, and he told my husband to go buy some liposuction before even thinking about building a bike for his almost 7 foot tall 400 lb frame before looking at me and hmphing and walking away. Support. Women with kids have usually pushed live human beings out through their pelvis, so not just moral support, but physical as well. I know when I do find a bike to start out on within my (super cheap) budget, it's going to hurt. I'm going to be sore for a while. The skinny little college kids and teenagers are going to point and laugh, my thigh will chap. I'll be sweaty and smelly. I can't freaking wait! And when I can get out of clydesdale status, I'll be able to look at some of the better trails winding their way through the allegheny forest here. A way to learn, and serious answers to stupid questions other than "Google!" or "Go to LBS!". And to make it affordable(that's an industry thing though). I have 2 kids, and need to manage my bills and not break the bank building a bike. As it stands now, if I can't find something straight out of the box that I can purchase at a low price to get me started, I won't be able to get into it. But if I can find something I can afford, then I can start to experience what I like, and figure out what I need, which would lead to some more expensive purchases in the future.


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## zazzafrazz (Apr 12, 2012)

^^^ Hi Heartlost. Welcome. Hope you get a bike and ride regularly. You may have a lot of challenges but we can help you. Think how you will feel coasting on that bike path with the birds chirping and the breeze in your hair ! Like neing a kid again.
LOok for a used bike at garage sales etc. Not a beat up one but gently used. One that fits and
is comfortable. Learn how to stop LOL , then go have fun ! One step at a time and you'll get there.


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## Heartlostangel (Jun 21, 2012)

Thanks Zazza! I may have found a bike. But I'm not sure if it's worth it, been trying to do research and as far as I can tell, they stopped making them over a decade ago. Obviously, it's a unisex, but I'm pretty sure I need a medium frame, but according to a website, the later medium frames are actually 19 inches instead of 17, which is what I need. I really just need a good sturdy starter bike. I'd post a link to the ad which has a picture but I'm still under the 10 post restriction, so I'll copy/paste the description. 

Asking Price: $250.00 
For Sale: Trek "Y" aluminum, full suspension mountain bike. Medium frame. New crankset, new rear casette, new chain, new cables, new tubes. The bearings were cleaned and re-packed. The beam rack, bag, and tailight are included 


Yay or nay?


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## zazzafrazz (Apr 12, 2012)

Sounds pretty good but try it first see if you feel comfortable. Offer 150. Good to go used but it is more of a pain to find the right bike. Check the classifieds on this website too ! 
Make sure you test ride anything before buying. Also you may want to put the word out here for any ladies in your area that can help yo get started.


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## Heartlostangel (Jun 21, 2012)

It was gone  I hate when people don't bother to pull down ads on the internet after selling it until someone else calls about it. Back to looking. Hubby is convinced I should be alright to get started on a Next Avalon as it has a thicker frame, reviews where riders who were the same size as me swear it works for them. It's a cruiser, but does have 36 spoke rims on it, I'm just wondering, if I do decide to go with that(to last the 6 months until we get income tax back and I've proved that I'm serious about it so he lets me go to a LBS in one of the bigger cities nearby) if I should switch out the tubes right away? Recommended psi is 40 on the tires it comes with. I found a formula on a clydsdale page that says 40 is about what would be recommended for me, but that's tubeless tires and I can't figure out if tubes are better or worse. On the bright side, if I do find a bike to get started on, I'd probably weigh less next time we're buying one, lol, so I wouldn't have so many issues beyond getting a frame size that fits.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

If you don't have any luck on craigslist or garage sales, another option for inexpensive bikes that are in good shape is a bike co-op. They take in old bikes, fix them up and get them rolling again in the community. Try googling (sorry) bike coop and your state or nearby cities.

Any tubes/tires that hold air will work for you as long as you don't let them get too low (they slowly lose some air over time). For comfort, the fatter the tire the better, so you don't have to hold out for a hybrid - a mtn bike could work for you too, you can always switch to slick tires later.


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## PixieChik (Jul 10, 2010)

Hello, laydeez! I am so excited I felt a need to report on our progress in starting a local women's ride. I found a fellow MTB enthusiast and we announced a weekly Monday night ride last week. NINE women showed up to ride. Many of them are outdoorsy athletic women who have never ridden or only ridden a few times but want to ride more. Several have a partner who rides, so they want to join in the fun.

We had a great time, made some new friends, and made Mondays a whole lot better!:thumbsup:


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## zazzafrazz (Apr 12, 2012)

PixieChik said:


> Hello, laydeez! I am so excited I felt a need to report on our progress in starting a local women's ride. I found a fellow MTB enthusiast and we announced a weekly Monday night ride last week. NINE women showed up to ride. Many of them are outdoorsy athletic women who have never ridden or only ridden a few times but want to ride more. Several have a partner who rides, so they want to join in the fun.
> 
> We had a great time, made some new friends, and made Mondays a whole lot better!:thumbsup:


 Great news ! 
Guess i'd best get my back in gear and to do the same .


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## mudgirl (Jun 19, 2007)

That's really wonderful, PixieChik!! I'm sure all those women really appreciate the effort you're putting into this.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

As with most things, it is largely about showing up. After that you have to figure out what keeps you coming back.

We're all in this together.:thumbsup:


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## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

Cycling, and arts in general, isn't just a man's domain. We need more advocacy from a early age in schools to encourage and let little girls know that sports is cool for girls too.


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

Julie said:


> Unless a person (male or female) is on the high end of the "hardy" scale, mountain biking may not be the right sport for them anyway, and I'm careful about encouraging women friends to come out if they don't do anything else requiring grit. EVERYONE in my riding group has had their share of injuries...clavicle fractures, AC separations, concussions, broken ankle, broken femur, broken pelvis, broken ribs, dislocated fingers in the past 7-8 years. And we are an older group of relatively capable but cautious, non-radical riders !


Wow. 12 years riding here, and my worst injury was a sprained wrist. 
BF has been riding since the mid-90's and his worst injury was a concussion from some bimbo backing her car out of her driveway and hitting him while he was riding to the trailhead. 
Mayhem isn't _required_ for mountain biking


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## rockymountainbr (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm new to mountain biking, I just moved to Utah about 2 years ago...and have always wanted to learn, but no one to really show me how, until this summer after my boyfriend helped me get into it. I grew up a tomboy which how I guess encouraged me to pick up these "dangerous" sports. I love to snowmobile in the mountains in the winter, and I guess I'm attracted to anything with adrenaline and a challenge. I may not the worlds best of anything, but it's a load of fun when you get into something and you progress.
I agree with a lot of stuff that's been said on here, having been in male-dominated sports almost my whole life...it's really nice sometimes to have an awesome girl to teach you things that maybe a guy can't. I have found a lot of women feel (and I have felt this way at a time) that you can't be feminine and be in a male sport...just the stereotype. But I've found you can, and it really is awesome to be in both ends. I think most women in male-dominated sports come across as aggressive...and I think if the cattiness went away and we had fun...maybe more would join in


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

MtbRN said:


> Wow. 12 years riding here, and my worst injury was a sprained wrist.
> BF has been riding since the mid-90's and his worst injury was a concussion from some bimbo backing her car out of her driveway and hitting him while he was riding to the trailhead.
> Mayhem isn't _required_ for mountain biking


+1, I've been MTB'g since '88, and the worst injury I've had was a sprained ankle - and that was riding inside!


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

We need after every ride:
1. Money lying on the tailgate of the truck.
2. Cold beer next to the money.
3. A cute, cheerful, witty guy next to the beer to pop the top/chip the crud off the bike while I have a beer with friends or chill in the truck/drive me home while I fall asleep.

There's probably other points I've missed, but I believe that's a reasonable start to increasing XX participation.

_eta correct chromosomes- I'm blaming this on beer._


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## zazzafrazz (Apr 12, 2012)

^^^ ha ha ha ! dayamn some funny shyd ! 
thx


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

verslowrdr said:


> We need after every ride:
> 1. Money lying on the tailgate of the truck.
> 2. Cold beer next to the money.
> 3. A cute, cheerful, witty guy next to the beer to pop the top/chip the crud off the bike while I have a beer with friends or chill in the truck/drive me home while I fall asleep.
> ...


Same guy cooks us dinner? 
I sense a new "10 things...." list in the making!


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## chainsuck (Feb 21, 2005)

More women will ride if female riders get a lot of attention and good press. The more you put them on a pedestal, the more female riders will pop up. You also need a lot of female specifics, like specific bikes, specific clothing, specific competitions, specific training camps, etc.


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## yennefer (Mar 16, 2010)

chainsuck I wouldn't be so sure about specific clothing  I have only guys shorts, shirts, and shoes. Yes, I am 99% DH biker and tomboy. Most of girls I know that ride DH wear guys clothing because it's more comfy (baggy). Even when I am going freeriding, I wear mens shorts and shoes. 
Every time I get a women's clothes, I end up exchanging them. Everything is so short! T-shirts, shorts, and even shoes are not comfy in my opinion. 
But I LOVE specific training camps and competitions. It's so much FUN riding with other girls


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## MJbikeski (Jul 18, 2012)

*Check Out Fast and Female for some inspiration!*

This non-profit organization in Canada focuses on getting girls and women participating in sport through "empowerment through sport" using local, national and Olympic female role models (called Ambassadors) at all their events. Last week, there were 100+ women at their MTB BBQ event in Canmore, AB, mostly beginner riders. It is a great model that is working!

fastandfemaleDOTcom


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## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

The recent "Bike" magazine has an interesting article on the 'XX' factor. It talks about how it doesn't necessarily work well when guys say, 'just use your momentum', etc. It talks about how girls need to use more finesse (and techniques that aren't necessarily intuitive) to compensate for having less upper body strength and a lower center of gravity compared to guys. One example is the pedal-induced wheelie as opposed to just muscling it with your upper body. It also talks about how learning to mountain bike doesn't necessarily mean you have to crash a lot and get hurt and write-off ever wearing a skirt again because of all the bruises and scars all over your legs.


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## Christieland (Mar 12, 2012)

I never could give two shits about my cycling tan, and occasionally get a spray tan to even it out. But I love rocking a pretty dress when my legs are chewed up!


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## Julie (Jul 26, 2005)

*Really good point*

I always suspected there were some physical reasons why females were less capable in certain terrain then males. I am 118 lbs off the bike and and 5'5". My riding partners are male and average 6' and 190lb. In rock gardens and steep rock banks (think Noble Canyon San Diego and ledges in Moab) I feel I have to go faster to get over/up objects than my partners. Sort of along the lines of F = MA (Force = Mass times Acceleration)...smaller mass means more acceleration required to generate the required force to get the bike over stuff. Unfortunately, "faster" means more harm done if I don't quite pull the move. Mind you, perhaps the higher center of balance means my friends are at greater risk for OTB should they misjudge something. I have a tendency to just crash sideways..pushed or pulled over by the bike.....but the chainring gouges are fierce. Overall I feel I am less stable going downhill too. My 118 body is trying to control a 27 lb bike vs his 190 lb body controlling essentially the same weight bike.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

Christieland said:


> I never could give two shits about my cycling tan, and occasionally get a spray tan to even it out. But I love rocking a pretty dress when my legs are chewed up!


:thumbsup: Me too! I think my bruises and cuts make me looks like a badass!!


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Yesterday when I picked up my bike at the shop, the owner asked me "Why do you think more women don't like to ride?" I said "I don't know, I don't understand women either!" :lol: We all laughed, but it's also true.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

mtbxplorer said:


> Yesterday when I picked up my bike at the shop, the owner asked me "Why do you think more women don't like to ride?" I said "I don't know, I don't understand women either!" :lol: We all laughed, but it's also true.


It is true!!

I really try to get my girl friends to pick up biking, whether its on a tame city path or rugged mountain, but most of them just take one look at my bruised up, road rashed legs and run the other way. I guess they think that because I have a misunderstanding with gravity that they will, too.

Now that it's race season I'm really beginning to get annoyed at the lack of women cyclists in all disciplines. For a lot of road stuff they just do an Open Womens class, which sucks because then me as a newbie are racing with pro women because there are not enough of us to have separate classes like the men. Argh.


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

riding is so fun i cant even imagine that anyone else wouldnt agree with me. Then again, i am PETRIFIED of anything ski/snowboard related. i've tried, but the downhill speed, and lack of hand brakes is something i just cant deal with. even sledding too fast scares me! haha. 

So i can only assume that some people view MTB the same way i view skiing. Its just a sensation i cant get behind.


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## petey15 (Sep 1, 2006)

NicoleB28 said:


> So i can only assume that some people view MTB the same way i view skiing. Its just a sensation i cant get behind.


Hee hee, this reminds me of another thread  Something to do with Sharpies? Anyway, in all seriousness, I feel the same way about downhill skiing! I've tried, on numerous occasions with poor results. From the chair lift to dodging people on the way down, I simply do not find the whole practice fun. Plus, the expense of the equipment and the lift fees. Thanks, but I'd rather put the money into biking! What I tell people who ask "isn't it more dangerous?" is that I have the ability to stop and get off my bike, and go around something I don't want to tackle. I don't feel as in control on skis. Plus, we get exercise up, too!


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

I downhill skied as a kid, but I won't do it anymore due to fear of blowing out my knees. I've gotten to be a scaredy cat in my ripe old age of 29!


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## Nakedbabytoes (Jul 24, 2012)

How much do you think is a society stigma? Pigeonholing? Nature? Nurture? 
Fair or unfair, we don't see half and half out there on the trail just like you don't see half and half represented at the playground park on a weekday morning. There are norms and then the bell curve of averages for outliers. You'll see female CEOs and stay at home dads, but they are outside the average of the bell curve. How do we get more male teachers? Female coaches? Female cops? Male cupcake decorators?
I'm not trying to start anything, I'm already late to the show at page 6.

I am a Tom boy. Always have loved jeans and cars and monkey bars. When I was 6, all I wanted for Christmas was a blue BMX bike with gold rims and brakes, just like my best friend Ben had. My mom decided that she knew better than me, that I would get teased mercilessly and beat up, so instead on Christmas morning, under the tree was a banana seated ape hanger barred single speed pink cruiser named "Desert Rose", complete with matching flower basket in front.
I hated Santa for quite a while after that(is it odd that I accidentially typed "Satan" instead of "Santa" at first.....lol! Same letters, different order, completely different meaning! Oops!) I jest though, I dig Santa
I grew up with that. I was never okay just being who I was. I wasn't pink enough. Wasn't frilly enough. I as wrong to like what I liked and be who I was. My oldest son, when he was 5, wanted a pink Dora backpack for school. My mom refused to buy it for him, he got stuck with a Spider-Man one instead. And yet, he is the only 12 year old boy I know that has any idea that Mary Janes look great with tights but not bare legs. Lol!
Bell curves suck! But are we your average bear, no. I stand out in a crowd of my interest area, just like my oldest stands out in his. And I say, as long as that is okay with the individual, then so be it.
But it is wrong for my mom to decide what I should like. Or my son.
Why don't more girls bike, or more specifically to the question of MTB, I have no idea. I know I get the stink eye in some LBS and pointed to the "comfort cruiser" section with hybrid tires and matching bell. Then they stare aghast as I ask if they carry a 17 tooth cog and a flip flop hub for my fixie project. So I think some of it is the vibe we get, being a female in a traditionally male place. And the other may just be that we are, indeed, outside the bell curve and there won't be a ton of females wanting to MTB. Market/demand or Demand/market? Chicken vs egg.
Eh, I like what I like and my neighbors like what they like. If we like the same thing, cool. If not, it is all good. I think we need to work on not assuming so much about people we don't know and what "normal" or "average" is.


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## iluvdimsum (Apr 10, 2013)

Maybe a mtb reality show would help.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

Oh god no... please no mountain biking reality shows. I just don't see how that would be good for the sport at all... unless they follow pros around. I'd watch a show of Rebecca Rusch, but what I foresee a show really being like is a bunch of girls on pink bikes riding wide dirt paths in the city park and getting into drama over boy mountain bikers. LOL


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## NicoleB (Jul 21, 2011)

yeah, they can call it "wheel world"

hardeehar.


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## Trailrider92 (Nov 13, 2012)

NicoleB said:


> yeah, they can call it "wheel world"
> 
> hardeehar.


Ba-dum ching.

I've also been wondering how to entice more girls into the sport of mountain biking. As vice-president of my college's mountain biking club, I have made it a priority of mine to bring more girls into the club, since guys outnumber girls 10:1. I feel that it's especially difficult at my age to convince girls to mountain bike; it seems like the vast majority of women who do pick it up wait until they are in their late 20's or thirties. I guess college age girls feel they have better things to do with their time. (Partying, hooking up with guys, watching the same old generic crap on tv).


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## iluvdimsum (Apr 10, 2013)

Nice one. lol.


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## AMintheDesert (Feb 8, 2013)

All I can say here is: Awesome


screampint said:


> As Nicole mentioned, focusing on the scenery might be a way to start.
> 
> But really, I think red wine and dark chocolate would do the trick. I wouldn't mind the cold shoulder in bikeshops if they had a Malbec and some nigh end dark chocolate!


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## TikiGoddess (Mar 24, 2013)

I think it takes a certain type of woman to like-- or even take up mountain biking. First of all, women (most but this is not a sweeping generalization by all means) are prissy, complain a lot and don't like to be dirty. At least that has been my impression with most of my other girl friends. 

I am a distance runner,rock climber and scuba diver. I like the outdoors and enjoy challenging and exerting myself. I don't mind ruining my pretty nails nor do i care if I grow a bunion from wearing super small rock shoes, or scrape a knee or two biking. Not a lot of women would sacrifice getting scuffed up for a thrill. But I am glad there are a few out there that keep an open mind and try things even if it scares them.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

I rode only with my husband for several years. It just wasn't very fun. He was way better than me, didn't understand why I was afraid of things he wasn't. I crashed once, jammed the end of my handlebars into my boob and he just didn't get it. Last summer I found a women's riding group. It's much more enjoyable. If I'm slow up the hill they wait for me. If I'm scared, they either talk me through it or wait while I walk. And they'd totally understand an injured boob.


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## TikiGoddess (Mar 24, 2013)

Ray6503 said:


> I rode only with my husband for several years. It just wasn't very fun. He was way better than me, didn't understand why I was afraid of things he wasn't. I crashed once, jammed the end of my handlebars into my boob and he just didn't get it. Last summer I found a women's riding group. It's much more enjoyable. If I'm slow up the hill they wait for me. If I'm scared, they either talk me through it or wait while I walk. And they'd totally understand an injured boob.


I second that! It's good that you're doing it anyway Ray. You're brave for doing something, even if it scares you. I applaud that.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

I know it's an old thread but my wife let me in on a little "secret". Most women don't mountain bike or do any physical activity at all becauuuuuuuse...

they have kids.

So I guess if we want women to partake in this wonderful activity, they need not be preoccupied with children. So guys, we gotta stop knocking them up! Can you do it, err, not do 'it'? For the good of the sport? :thumbsup:


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

dgw2jr, don't guys have kids too?


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

We don't have kids so we ride all the time! 

But there's more to it than just "having kids". A lot of women feel an overwhelming sense of guilt leaving their kids, even if it's with dad. So even if they do get out to ride it's hard to enjoy it because they feel the rush to get back so they don't feel that guilt anymore. 

My wife is a teacher at a day care so this is the kind of stuff they talk about all day long.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

nvr mnd


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

When I said "a lot" I was referring to the subset of people who choose to stop doing anything fun. They are the majority. 

There is one couple at the day care who continue to ride MTB though they just had twins. They have the logistics figured out. But they are very well off compared to most.


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

As a guy, I got into MTB because I like the finer details...the engineering behind the frame, components and all the things that make it an enjoyable experience. I've never met a woman (offline) who wants to discuss the advantages of a hydraulic vs. cable dropper post, or the mud shedding capabilities of an SPD vs. egg beaters, or the pros and cons of Specialized HL + BRAIN vs. Trek's ABP + DRCV. So my question is, do the majority of women riders really care about these kinds of things or do they just want something that works reliably for them and makes their ride more enjoyable?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Depends on the woman.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

xlash said:


> As a guy, I got into MTB because I like the finer details...the engineering behind the frame, components and all the things that make it an enjoyable experience. I've never met a woman (offline) who wants to discuss the advantages of a hydraulic vs. cable dropper post, or the mud shedding capabilities of an SPD vs. egg beaters, or the pros and cons of Specialized HL + BRAIN vs. Trek's ABP + DRCV. So my question is, do the majority of women riders really care about these kinds of things or do they just want something that works reliably for them and makes their ride more enjoyable?


I'd like to learn more about that kind of stuff but no, that's not why I got into it, nor would it make things more enjoyable. I don't think that a lot of men think it makes it more enjoyable either. You're just a nerd.


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

Rae6503 said:


> I'd like to learn more about that kind of stuff but no, that's not why I got into it, nor would it make things more enjoyable. I don't think that a lot of men think it makes it more enjoyable either. You're just a nerd.


LOL...Hey, that's not fair. I've never hurled the n-word at a girl who goes into the finer details of shoes, purses and everything Cosmopolitan.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Girls don't like to hurt.

Call it sexist, or chauvinistic, but it's been my experience that most girls just aren't ok with suffering the way guys are.
Some rare breed of people, (both girls and guys) enjoy that pain, relish it; but that's another story for another day. 

I happen to *love* the long, slow-burn suffering of a 30 mile hike, a 20 mile trail run or an all-day epic ride. I don't at all enjoy the lung-searing, lead-legged pain of a 5k race, but I'll happily keep going at a pace until I collapse. My wife and several of her friends think I'm literally crazy. They've asked why I run marathons, or ride 50 miles on my road bike. I ask why they *don't*. 

The simple answer I get, and I quote: "because that sounds painful". 

Mountain biking is suffering. and there's a decided element of danger, both inherently, and from 'being alone in the wilderness'. I think that makes a lot of women uncomfortable. Maybe it's sanity, maybe genetics, maybe societal programming. 

Nearly every woman I've had this interaction has lead me to believe suffering was a turn-off, regardless of the end payoff.


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

I think some of this has to be blamed on perverts and rapists. I have seen many guys riding solo just like me on the trails and as guys we are fine taking on that element of risk. But pervs and rapists are going to prey on solo female riders. Rape them and then steal their bikes. That's a 2 in 1 trophy for them. There's a reason why I have seen many solo road female riders but never a solo female MTB'r. Of course they can ride with their friends etc. but that requires coordination and aligning schedules.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

^^^^Wow, I think you guys missed the question, "What will encourage more women to bike", not what will discourage them. Besides, I don't think you are right about why the number of women on the trails is lower.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

mtbxplorer said:


> ^^^^Wow, I think you guys missed the question, "What will encourage more women to bike", not what will discourage them.


I guess my response then is: eBikes, and city parks with police.



mtbxplorer said:


> Besides, I don't think you are right about why the number of women on the trails is lower.


I can only speculate based on my sampled population set. But of the random, self-selected polled respondants, I'm 100% on the "no pain" hypothesis. Shrug.

What do YOUR non-riding friends give for reasons?


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

xlash said:


> I think some of this has to be blamed on perverts and rapists. I have seen many guys riding solo just like me on the trails and as guys we are fine taking on that element of risk. But pervs and rapists are going to prey on solo female riders. Rape them and then steal their bikes. That's a 2 in 1 trophy for them. There's a reason why I have seen many solo road female riders but never a solo female MTB'r. Of course they can ride with their friends etc. but that requires coordination and aligning schedules.


WTF...? 
Are you serious, or just seriously stupid?


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

MtbRN said:


> WTF...?
> Are you serious, or just seriously stupid?


Neither...I hope  Anyway, I was just speculating. Didn't mean to offend anybody.
View attachment 927662


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

Ummmm... yeah. Generalize much?

New Data: Record Number of Marathon Finishes in 2013 | Runner's World & Running Times

"The number of women finishing marathons has steadily increased since 1980 when 10 percent of marathon finishers were women. That number rose to 26 percent in 1995, 38 percent in 2000 and 41 percent in 2005. In 2012, 42 percent of marathon finishers were women"

Gee, doesn't that sounds like an awful lot of women subjecting themselves to "the lung-searing, lead-legged pain" that you apparently think only you can enjoy...?


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

MtbRN said:


> Ummmm... yeah. Generalize much?
> 
> New Data: Record Number of Marathon Finishes in 2013 | Runner's World & Running Times
> 
> ...


You are quoting somebody else, not me. I didn't generalize women. I just speculated...an educated one at that.


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

xlash said:


> Neither...I hope  Anyway, I was just speculating. Didn't mean to offend anybody.
> View attachment 927662


Alas, you hope in vain...
And despite your intent, your post was offensive. There are plenty of women mountain bikers on this forum who ride solo. My guess is since you have never seen one, they have all figured out who to stay away from... and it is YOU. 
And you can take that "pill" and use it as a suppository... Looks like it might be a good fit for a giant @$$hole like yourself


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

xlash said:


> You are quoting somebody else, not me. I didn't generalize women. I just speculated...an educated one at that.


I am quite aware of who I am replying to. I'm NOT sure why you thought this was directed at YOU?
Now you can go back under your rock.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

dang, I can't give MtbRN any more rep...

anyway,
Here are just a few shots from a ride we started this summer. Myself, a local coach, advocate and proponent of women's rides, and one of our local DH race pros who is also a Liv Ambassador, combined our energies. We advertised them as no drop/social and encouraged riders of all abilities to come. We are supported by the local MTB club and one of the locally owned shops. We changed location almost every month, riding 2x a month. We even did some shuttle rides. I got one bit of second hand feedback from one gal who says we stop too much but hey, we advertise them as no drop social, duh! Many of the women are glad to have someone besides SO to ride with. There are friendships being made and other ride connections.
Our Facebook page went from zero to 100 in 48 hours this spring and is almost at 200 now.

So here's one way to do it.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

xlash said:


> Didn't mean to offend anybody.


Just curious, did you bother to read the sticky regarding guys in the women's lounge?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

MtbRN said:


> {snipped}
> 
> Gee, doesn't that sounds like an awful lot of women subjecting themselves to "the lung-searing, lead-legged pain" that you apparently think only you can enjoy...?


facepalm. re-read the post. Nevermind. forget it. Stay butt-hurt. I don't care.


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

formica said:


> Just curious, did you bother to read the sticky regarding guys in the women's lounge?


No I didn't. I just hit New Posts and this one came up. My posts can be summarized as follows: 1) I don't see a lot of solo women riders - this is a personal experience. If I can't share personal experience regardless of which section of the forum this is, you need to re-read the sticky. 2) Women riders don't ride much because of rapists or perverts - this was speculation on my part because I don't know how frequently this happens where you live. Why would you or the other poster find this offensive? In essence this is about avoiding danger. Since when is that offensive?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

It's all in presentation.

I worry about rapists and perverts: zero. I'm sure this will vary greatly depending on where one lives but it is a non issue here. Based on my experience as an advocate for women's riding, I think the personal safety thing is a red herring and more brought up by men than women as a perceived issue. Trail perverts want easy targets - that's why they seem to hang out on paved trails.


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## petey15 (Sep 1, 2006)

Terrific, Formica! Our club also does weekly women's rides with a no-drop policy. Men are also invited to ride along with the understanding that it is a women's ride and we dictate the route and pace. Sometimes they'll break off and do some different trails and then meet back up. We've seen our women's memberships in the club at least double in size over the last year. Our club maintains a website and a Facebook page where we advertise our rides, as well. And recently, we planned and held rides for beginners who were interested in seeing what mountain biking was all about. Having a positive, supportive atmosphere helps a lot. 

I will say that a lot of them women we ride with also do not have children and almost always has a significant other that comes along and rides as well. For the men that are in our club with children, almost all of them have significant others who do not ride and stay at home and take care of the children. So, it does seem to be a limiting factor in the number of women who are able to get out and ride regularly. 

As far as safety concerns, I'm inclined to agree with Formica - it is all about perception. I ride alone at least a couple of times a week. A couple of months ago I pulled into the parking lot and was greeted by an older gentleman who was surprised to see I was going to head off alone. I ran into him again later on the trail and he felt inclined to warn me about a "suspicious-looking guy" who was hiking along the trails and told me I probably shouldn't ride in that direction. It was kind of a weird feeling and I didn't know how to take it. Was he just being concerned and fatherly, was there any validity to his concern, or what? I'll admit, it did give me a bit of a pause and I did decide to take a different trail in the end. Sometimes it's all about awareness and being confident in your own abilities and deciding if the risks are acceptable or not. But in the end, I do not think this is the reason why more women don't get out and ride. Maybe why more don't ride solo, but not why they don't ride to begin with.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

This shouldn't make me laugh but it does. Rapists on the mountain bike trails? Really? I'm on my bike. Can't I just ride away? Or I suppose he could tackle me off the bike, but that seems like a lot of effort. Rapist generally go for the easiest target. That would not be a mountain biker. Not a concern. (Although before I laugh it off completely, there was a female geologist that was murdered by a guy living in a campground, but people are sadly murdered everywhere). 

I do ride solo a lot. I never used to but I've found if I really want to do it I can't wait to find someone to ride with. Grown-ups are busy and finding time when a few people can get away is hard. Plus I now have 3 kids which means that if I want to ride with my husband we'd need a sitter. What I worry about more is crashing alone but the trails I ride are pretty busy pretty much all the time. I landed on my face last week and sure enough there was a guy along within a minute or two. I wouldn't do the more isolated, long, wilderness ones alone. And getting too hurt to ride out is a concern for all riders at my skill level (not very good), not just women.

I also do ride with a women's club (Dirt Divas out of Denver). No drop rides, no males allowed, once a week. They also offer skills clinics a few times a year with a pro teacher, which is awesome. And actually there are a lot of women with children in the club and yes, it's generally our husbands who are watching them so we can ride. 

And finally the part about pushing yourself and dealing with pain. Mayyyybe (and a big maybe) a higher percentage of men are more comfortable with recreational pain than are women, but I don't think that has a whole lot to do with mountain biking (but I know plenty of female runners, bikers, and even rugby players). Mountain biking is fun. It's not really pain (unless you crash, which I 'um, I do). 

You just can't generalize. Sure, some women are afraid of pain. Some women don't like to get dirty. Some women don't like the physically exert themselves. But some men are afraid of pain, don't like to get dirty or exert themselves as well. And sure, maybe there's slightly more women like that than men, but not my much. Lets say 40% of women are like that and maybe 30% of men. That doesn't account for the difference in the percentages in mountain biker genders.

And yes. Holly long post batman.


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

I am surprised nobody talked about the pain threshold for women when delivering kids...especially one who had 3. I disagree that women don't like to feel pain. They do, but everybody's experiences are different. If you've hung out with prissy women your entire life then that's likely what you'll think.

I can see why the bit on rapists is funny but I have had many conversation with someone who studied serial rapists. They don't wake up one day and decide they want to attack and just wait for a target to come along. Every move is generally calculated days in advance. It's scarier than you think.

To formica, I apologize if my presentation was wrong but I want fellow riders to be safe.

To Rae, are you on clipless pedals? Why would you fall so much on trails that are flowing? Or did I read that wrong.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Women tend to forget about childbirth once it is over with.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

Notice my distinction of "recreational pain". Childbirth isn't recreational.  Also epidurals are awesome. 

And I'm sure it IS scarier than I think, but you know what? I chose NOT to think about it. I'm not going to live my life in fear. I'm not going to assume that any man I see on the trail or otherwise might be a rapist. I just can't live like that and it's not fair for men. And I still don't think many rapist would target a heavily traveled mountain trail (and if they did they'd go for hikers and runners not fast moving bikers).

I don't fall *that* much but I do on occasion. It's usually rocks, switchbacks or last week it was a jump I didn't see at a bike park (or that one time I caught my handle bar on a fence post), not "flowing trails". And yes, I ride clipless. Don't get me started on that...


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

formica said:


> Women tend to forget about childbirth once it is over with.


Isn't that only in the case of natural birth? Whereas with c-section that hormone that makes women forget about the pain doesn't get generated so they always remember. Whatever the case might be, I agree with you.


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

Rae6503 said:


> Notice my distinction of "recreational pain". Childbirth isn't recreational.  Also epidurals are awesome.
> 
> And I'm sure it IS scarier than I think, but you know what? I chose NOT to think about it. I'm not going to live my life in fear. I'm not going to assume that any man I see on the trail or otherwise might be a rapist. I just can't live like that and it's not fair for men. And I still don't think many rapist would target a heavily traveled mountain trail (and if they did they'd go for hikers and runners not fast moving bikers).
> 
> I don't fall *that* much but I do on occasion. It's usually rocks, switchbacks or last week it was a jump I didn't see at a bike park (or that one time I caught my handle bar on a fence post), not "flowing trails". And yes, I ride clipless. Don't get me started on that...


I will get you started. You said so yourself that I am a nerd. Tell me about your clipless problems.

The biggest thing that helped me with the same problems you have with falling because of rocks, switchbacks and jumps was the dropper post. Anytime I sense danger, I drop myself 100mm and introduce enough stability to get me through those things. I have only fallen once since I got the dropper and that was because I went off the trail and started sightseeing....terrible combo.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

I actually don't have much problems anymore. I just switched to them last summer. My biggest problem is that I have 2 people in my life who "know everything" about mountain biking and they disagree on the subject so I'm super tired of hearing it debated. (This is also true on the subject of tire pressure.)

The fall last week was because I had the brilliant idea to warm up for a climb at the little bike park I had never been too and there was a jump built at the top of a little hill. I had no idea it was there and was not expecting it, nor do I have any experience in jumps, and the landing was on the down slope of the hill. I might have landed it had it been flat but I didn't have enough time (while in the air) to think about shifting my weight back. So yeah, I landed on my face, road rash on my chin and sore ribs for a few days. 

But yes, the fall the week before on a switchback I'm not sure if I had dropped my post before that decent. Probably didn't. And actually on dropper seats, the two "experts" agree with you that I should get one. They are just expensive. Maybe next summer.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

Oh god, the word clipless got mentioned... there goes the thread, LOL. 

Rapists are the least of my worries when I ride. I ride alone 98% of the time, both road and mountain bike. I'm far more worried about getting hit by a car or wrecking and being unconscious out in the woods. To think back, the last couple of times I went mountain biking I only saw other female riders out and about... which I did think was odd (usually there's a few guys), but also awesome! A few years ago people acted so strange when they'd see me out alone, so I'm loving the fact other women are out riding alone as well. 

And pain, ha! I've been an orthopedic nurse for two years, let me tell you about young to middle aged men and their pain thresholds... 

I will say, I can see how scratches, bruises, broken stuff could scare off women (and men) from mountain biking. I know some women who go out and get lots of padded gear, and then end up liking mountain biking more because they're not getting so beat up. There's solutions for those who don't dig scars!


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

Rae6503 said:


> I actually don't have much problems anymore. I just switched to them last summer. My biggest problem is that I have 2 people in my life who "know everything" about mountain biking and they disagree on the subject so I'm super tired of hearing it debated. (This is also true on the subject of tire pressure.)
> 
> The fall last week was because I had the brilliant idea to warm up for a climb at the little bike park I had never been too and there was a jump built at the top of a little hill. I had no idea it was there and was not expecting it, nor do I have any experience in jumps, and the landing was on the down slope of the hill. I might have landed it had it been flat but I didn't have enough time (while in the air) to think about shifting my weight back. So yeah, I landed on my face, road rash on my chin and sore ribs for a few days.
> 
> But yes, the fall the week before on a switchback I'm not sure if I had dropped my post before that decent. Probably didn't. And actually on dropper seats, the two "experts" agree with you that I should get one. They are just expensive. Maybe next summer.


Clipless pedals are awesome - works out your hamstrings, uses more of your leg muscles, delivers more power etc. Unless you have an insurmountable fear of not being able to unclip, I can't see anybody going back to flats. Which ones do you ride with?

I got my dropper post for $226...in Canada. So I am sure you can do a lot better in the US!! It's about a 4/5 star with infinite adjustment. You can't get any cheaper than that unless you get a KS eTen. I think you can do less than $200 in the US. It makes biking even more additive because now you can do both: 1) ascend steeper by keeping your butt pressed on the seat for more traction at the back and 2) descend steeper because you lower your gravity or get the seat out of the way...all by pressing a lever.

Since we are discussing clipless pedals and dropper posts, there are 2 areas which these 2 help you a lot. 1) jumps - lower your seat for more pre-load/control and keep your feet attached to sustain the necessary technique and 2) cornering - lower center of gravity with the seat = more stability and pushing out the rear end with your feet for faster turns.


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## stacers (Oct 29, 2012)

Oh my. I just checked to see what got this thread going and had to laugh. Whoa.

First, about the women being pain averse. Really? Not my experience. I live in Colorado, and most of the women my age here are incredibly active. They run, hike, do crossfit, bike, camp, ski. Not a lot of my friends mountain bike, but since they're busy doing other physical activities, I think it has little to do with pain. My sister-in-law is an ironman triathlete, but I can't get her on a mountain bike at all. THAT'S the problem we're talking about - why won't otherwise gutsy athletic women give mountain biking a try?

Second, rapists? No. I worry about this when I run at the park, or on city streets. On the trails, not at all. Maybe I'm naive, but I just don't think there are going to be a lot of guys that hike miles up difficult trails just to attempt to abduct me off of my bike. It's a lot of work, and there are a lot of really decent mountain biker guys around that keep me feeling safe.

I do 90% of my riding alone, and safety is mostly concern in a "what if I fall and can't get out?" sort of way. If I ride somewhere with no cell service, I take a Spot tracker with me, and set it so that my husband can track my movement. That way, if I have a nasty fall and can't call for help, someone knows my location off the bat. Life is to short to never do anything fun because I'm worried about safety.

As for how we get more women to ride, I think there are a few things. First, I think women's mountain biking groups and clinics are HUGE. I ride with the same group as Rae above, and it's a great supportive environment for learning. We all have strengths, and I enjoy getting out and riding with each and every one of those women throughout the summer. Taking a couple of women's only clinics has been a huge help for my confidence on technical stuff. When I started out and would ride with my husband or the occasional guy, I was constantly frustrated that I couldn't do what seemed to be natural for them. Riding with women I learned that I am not, in fact, as much of a moron as I thought I was, and that those skills can be learned in a safe environment.

Second, I think mountain biking has an image problem for some women. I say that, because I used to be one of them. I'm not an adrenaline sports kind of girl - I like to hurt, and like endurance, but I've never been one who felt particularly athletic or coordinated. Hucking myself down a trail at high speeds on a mountain bike seemed like a recipe for disaster. I think a lot of women I know are like this. They run marathons, they road bike, but they think mountain biking is only for super-coordinated athletic adrenaline-junkie type guys. The thing they don't get from the public image of mountain biking is that it's just like anything else - you can LEARN the skills you need to safely maneuver yourself down the trail, and the rewards you get from tackling new challenges can be one of the best things you experience. I think this IMBA blog touched on it really well a few weeks ago. The tough fit chicks who do other races but won't touch a mountain bike? They could benefit from some more inspirational stories. How did mountain biking change every-mom's life? Or give the average chick self-confidence that she never had? That probably sounds cheesy to the average guy, but I think it would get more women on board.

Last, I think role models are huge, and I think that as more women get into mountain biking, more kids are going to see it as an option. I'm taking my little girl and one of her friends to Take a Kid Mountain Biking Day this Saturday. They'll rock it on their crappy bikes, and have a great time. They're growing up thinking mountain biking is something chicks do.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

stacers said:


> Second, I think mountain biking has an image problem for some women.


I think this is a HUGE barrier. I can't tell you how many times my non-cyclist random friends have posted a Red Bull Rampage video to my Facebook saying "I can't believe you do stuff like this!" Uhhh noooo, I certainly do not do anything like that, and never will... but that's the image a lot of the general public gets of mountain biking.

That's why I love stuff like the Beti Bike Bash held in CO. All women's mountain bike race held on single track that is completely nonthreatening to first timers and beginners, but still a challenge to the expert/pro cross country racers due to the high speeds that can be reached. I've managed to get a couple of friends to try mountain bike racing at the BBB, and they really enjoyed it!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

xlash said:


> Clipless pedals are awesome - works out your hamstrings, uses more of your leg muscles, delivers more power etc. Unless you have an insurmountable fear of not being able to unclip, I can't see anybody going back to flats. Which ones do you ride with?


Please can we keep the clipless are more efficient than flats argument out of this?There are tons of threads devoted to it. One thing that will encourage more women to bike is to let them make their own decisions about what feels comfortable and inspires confidence for themselves, without others trying to tell them they should do something different.

The insurmountable fear comment comes off as hopelessly condescending.

Sent from my iPad - Stupid autocorrect!


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

She already made the decision, I am just reinforcing it. If you're on flats then good for you. Ride (with) what you like.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

So xlash, what have you done to encourage more women to mountain bike?


Sent from my iPad - Stupid autocorrect!


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

xlash said:


> Clipless pedals are awesome - works out your hamstrings, uses more of your leg muscles, delivers more power etc. Unless you have an insurmountable fear of not being able to unclip, I can't see anybody going back to flats. Which ones do you ride with?
> 
> I got my dropper post for $226...in Canada. So I am sure you can do a lot better in the US!! It's about a 4/5 star with infinite adjustment. You can't get any cheaper than that unless you get a KS eTen. I think you can do less than $200 in the US. It makes biking even more additive because now you can do both: 1) ascend steeper by keeping your butt pressed on the seat for more traction at the back and 2) descend steeper because you lower your gravity or get the seat out of the way...all by pressing a lever.
> 
> Since we are discussing clipless pedals and dropper posts, there are 2 areas which these 2 help you a lot. 1) jumps - lower your seat for more pre-load/control and keep your feet attached to sustain the necessary technique and 2) cornering - lower center of gravity with the seat = more stability and pushing out the rear end with your feet for faster turns.


Dude...you're just rambling now...


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## Khiori (Aug 16, 2014)

I am a new rider - just started last May. As a mistake even. I was 44 years old and I signed up for an Xterra triathlon. I didn't ride and didn't swim at the time, but I ran trails and loved it. So it was an easy transition to go get a bike and learn the trail. I LOVED IT! Now I mostly ride and go out several times a week with my husband (who started at the same time I did) 

Anyway, I think for me, where I am, we live in a super supportive place for new riders. Trails all over. LBS owner encourages everyone (male, female, young, old) Lots of skill level trails. We tend to ride in places not many ppl go and almost every time we run across someone out there, it's another couple. So it's not strange to see men and women out riding. The local high school has a mtn biking team. The local, weekly paper seems to have articles on mtn biking in every issue - sometimes about the local hs team, sometimes about a race held, or some local thing.


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

formica said:


> So xlash, what have you done to encourage more women to mountain bike?
> 
> Sent from my iPad - Stupid autocorrect!


About four years ago I got half a dozen out-of-shape and overweight colleagues (all self proclaimed) to start biking to work (almost all of them women). I left the company and a couple of years later one of them thanked me for my part in helping her get back into shape. I suggested mtb to catch up for old times sake and recommended a nice flowing single track that ended in a rocky and rooty descent. She throughly enjoyed it and even though we haven't traversed a trail together since, she is hooked and on her way to get a friend of hers to do the same.


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## xlash (Aug 6, 2012)

RS VR6 said:


> Dude...you're just rambling now...


Your post just made this thread so much more useful. 2 thumbs up.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

sooshee said:


> I think this is a HUGE barrier. I can't tell you how many times my non-cyclist random friends have posted a Red Bull Rampage video to my Facebook saying "I can't believe you do stuff like this!" Uhhh noooo, I certainly do not do anything like that, and never will... but that's the image a lot of the general public gets of mountain biking.


LOL. Exactly. Crazy downhill flips and crashes are NOT what "normal" mountain biking is. Although more power to the ladies who do it.


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## Julie (Jul 26, 2005)

Not so fast ! ! ! I LOVE that stuff...and at least one guy in my group has to tell me to "shut up and ride" every now and then when I completely geek out over the head angle, rebound and compression damping, tire patterns, pressures, durameter numbers, etcetcetc.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Just goes to show you can't put any bikers in a box.


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

formica said:


> Just goes to show you can't put any bikers in a box.


Except for the really small ones.


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

sooshee said:


> I think this is a HUGE barrier. I can't tell you how many times my non-cyclist random friends have posted a Red Bull Rampage video to my Facebook saying "I can't believe you do stuff like this!" Uhhh noooo, I certainly do not do anything like that, and never will... but that's the image a lot of the general public gets of mountain biking.


This.

And the problem continues when the new rider starts riding. Let's say you have a friend who says, "I'd like to ride my bike, but I'm afraid of cars." Quite a few of my friends have said exactly that to me.

So you say, "No problem, let's ride on the dirt where there are no cars."

And she says, "Cool." She wants to go out, get some exercise, enjoy the outdoors. Maybe she wants to lose weight. Maybe she's tired of being cooped up in a gym for exercise. Maybe she was a runner, but her knees won't take it any more.

She has a mountain bike, so she and you go on a women's beginner mountain bike ride. The group rides around on some trails, nothing challenging, and then the leader says, "Now let's go to the bowl." And everyone is expected to ride down a very steep slope and coast up the other side. If a rider overcomes her fear, and doesn't panic brake, she can get down the bowl safely.

But your friend doesn't want to overcome her fear. She doesn't want to have fear in the first place. She didn't know she was signing up for fear. She doesn't want to do an adrenaline sport. She just wanted to go for a nice ride, out in the woods, for fun and exercise, and now she is being told that mountain biking even at the lowest level involves fear.

This is the face of mountain bike riding-- scary stunts. People who don't ride difficult trails are told they are not mountain bike riders (and I have been told exactly that, on this very site.)

Where is the place for women (and men) who just want to go out for a ride, in the same way they'd go out for a hike? People go out for long, strenuous hikes that just involve walking. Why can't we present an aspect of mountain biking that doesn't involve skills that someone hasn't yet mastered and maybe doesn't even want to master? When we take a newbie on a hike, we don't suddenly start rock climbing-- we just walk. Where's the part of mountain bike riding that's just riding?


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

the other Anne said:


> This.
> 
> Where is the place for women (and men) who just want to go out for a ride, in the same way they'd go out for a hike? People go out for long, strenuous hikes that just involve walking. Why can't we present an aspect of mountain biking that doesn't involve skills that someone hasn't yet mastered and maybe doesn't even want to master? When we take a newbie on a hike, we don't suddenly start rock climbing-- we just walk. Where's the part of mountain bike riding that's just riding?


I think for that you've got to know some one who knows the local trails and will direct you to the riding you want to do. For that kind of riding you actually should probably stay out of the "mountains". Mountains have rocks, steep slopes, etc. Look for nice gravel trails along the river, maybe dirt roads, or talk to someone who will tell you were the true beginner trails are (I didn't have this and my darling husband and good friend took me to things I had no business being on). Or just be ready (and not embarrassed by it) to walk the sections you don't want to do.


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm talking about the public face of mountain biking, not my own experience. I've been riding for long enough that I know how to find places I like to ride, but a new cyclist is not going to be as knowledgeable or connected as someone who has been riding for decades.

The public face of mountain biking is stunts. But we need to broaden our image to include other types of off-road riding... unless you want to say other types of off-road riding are not mountain biking, but why would you say that?

(Edited to add) Maybe you want to say that other types of riding count as gravel riding, not mountain bike riding. That seems pointlessly schismatic to me.


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

Rae6503 said:


> I think for that you've got to know some one who knows the local trails and will direct you to the riding you want to do. For that kind of riding you actually should probably stay out of the "mountains". Mountains have rocks, steep slopes, etc. Look for nice gravel trails along the river, maybe dirt roads, or talk to someone who will tell you were the true beginner trails are (I didn't have this and my darling husband and good friend took me to things I had no business being on). Or just be ready (and not embarrassed by it) to walk the sections you don't want to do.


Trails can be built to a variety of styles and difficulties, regardless of the terrain. To create more mountain bikers (of all sexes), the issue is lowering the barrier to entry. This means that riders need access to decent affordable bikes, easily navigable trails with well-defined difficulty levels, and often a community of peers. The problem with telling novices to stay out of the mountains and stick to gravel paths and dirt roads is that...well, that's boring as hell and a huge departure from riding sinuous trails in the woods. One of the larger misconceptions in mountain biking is that novice trails should be wide and boring. Though Whistler is associated with big riding, it's network of novice trails is exemplary. They are fun, beautiful, and give most people all the enjoyment of mountain biking with very, very little risk. The key to increasing the mountain bike community is to build networks that give riders a place to start out, as well as a place to go.

You can see this in practice in cities throughout the country. Areas not historically associated with mountain biking are creating networks that create mountain bikers. Mountain biking is booming in areas like Brown County, IN; Birmingham, AL; and throughout the midwest.

It's less about staying out of the mountains, than about having the ability to easily choose the experience you're after.


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

the other Anne said:


> This.
> 
> But your friend doesn't want to overcome her fear. She doesn't want to have fear in the first place. She didn't know she was signing up for fear. She doesn't want to do an adrenaline sport. She just wanted to go for a nice ride, out in the woods, for fun and exercise, and now she is being told that mountain biking even at the lowest level involves fear.
> 
> ...


Spot. ****ing. On.

And true across the board, regardless of which type of junk you're sporting.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

IME the biggest barrier is buying the actual bike. A lot of women go into a shop not knowing what to expect...they just hope the salesperson knows what they are talking about. Unfortunately most shop guys are just that...shop guys...they only know what they like. The salesperson needs to give the answers to the questions the customer does not ask (lol...hope that made sense).

Getting on the trail is the easy part. What me and another co worker would do is to actually take the new rider out on an actual ride after they purchase the bike to help them dial in the bike and get used to the controls.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

the other Anne said:


> Where is the place for women (and men) who just want to go out for a ride, in the same way they'd go out for a hike? People go out for long, strenuous hikes that just involve walking. Why can't we present an aspect of mountain biking that doesn't involve skills that someone hasn't yet mastered and maybe doesn't even want to master? When we take a newbie on a hike, we don't suddenly start rock climbing-- we just walk. Where's the part of mountain bike riding that's just riding?





catzilla said:


> Spot. ****ing. On.
> 
> And true across the board, regardless of which type of junk you're sporting.


Yes and no. Remember the part where we all agreed you can't put mountain bikers in a box? To use the hiking analogy.... not all hikers may want to start out on the nature walk in the woods on a marked path. That might bore some people to death. Some might want to go to the top of the mountain, or scramble across a talus field or even go backpacking or off trail right away! Some people like to dip their toe in, others dive right in.

In the same way, there is no one-size-fits-all way to encourage new female riders. I've run women's rides for years with the intent of getting gals into the sport, and trust me, you cannot please everyone or provide each rider with their perfect idea of a mountain bike ride. Even with the best intentions, I'm sure we lose riders for all sorts of reasons - too easy, too hard, too fast, too slow, not enough stopping, too much stopping, too much talking, not friendly enough, too much climbing, not challenging enough, too big a group, not a good night, wrong time, wrong trail....For every ten new riders we get who have an awesome time, there are probably one or two that never come back.

We get all sorts of riders. We get riders who it's their very first time biking and they are excited, or it's their tenth time and they are terrified. There will be the gal who has gone out once and next thing you know she's excited to do downhilling lift-served, and people who have been riding a long time but have never really progressed. We get gals who just want to try new trails with a group instead of exploring on their own. We get lots of new riders that are looking for something different than riding with their SO.

We do our best, but there's no way we can please everyone. Our groups have fun, and I can attest to new connections being made for other rides and new friendships being formed. We don't pressure anyone to do anything they don't want to, we show them how to do things if they want, and we never leave anyone behind. We choose a variety of trails, from the ultra flat and non technical, to intermediate shuttle trails. At worst, our group is not their thing and we never see them again, at best someone makes some new friends and finds someone who like the same kinds of things they do - be it gravel grinding or singletrack or anything else.



> She has a mountain bike, so she and you go on a women's beginner mountain bike ride. The group rides around on some trails, nothing challenging, and then the leader says, "Now let's go to the bowl." And everyone is expected to ride down a very steep slope and coast up the other side. If a rider overcomes her fear, and doesn't panic brake, she can get down the bowl safely.


No one should be expected to do anything they aren't ready for on a beginner ride. That's unfortunate. Are you sure that was the expectation? At the same time, you might have some beginners who do want to challenge themselves. Should they not be offered something too?


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

Good points, formica. Riders, including beginners, are different. I didn't mean to criticize people doing the good work of offering free women's rides, because they (and you) are offering a great service.

Rather, I'm concerned that mountain biking is presented as a thrill sport, and the other aspects of riding are de-emphasized. For that reason, women (and men) who might like to ride their bikes, but who don't want to jump, or skid around corners, or ride fast down a staircase of rocks, don't realize that mountain biking can be for them, too.



> No one should be expected to do anything they aren't ready for on a beginner ride. That's unfortunate. Are you sure that was the expectation?


Well, if a rider can either do it, or stand around for fifteen minutes being bored, I'd say that doing it was the expectation. I don't want to quibble about semantics though.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

the other Anne said:


> This is the face of mountain bike riding-- scary stunts. People who don't ride difficult trails are told they are not mountain bike riders (and I have been told exactly that, on this very site.)


thank you for bringing this up... even sometimes in this women's lounge I get the impression that if you're not riding all mountain or downhill, you're somehow not worthy of whatever. It's like a pissing contest over who has the best form of mountain biking - which all have their own set of difficulties, challenges, and badassness!

Anyways...

Interesting discussion on group rides... they can be difficult to plan because people all have different expectations. Like some said, beginners might want to be challenged where some might not want to be. Or not all woman want the same thing when they ride. For example, personally I do not participate in my local women's group rides because it's not the pace and style of riding I prefer (lots of stopping, regrouping, talking, easy trails, low mileage, etc). Easy enough for me, I just don't go and I prefer to ride alone so it works out. Can't make everyone happy... but what a person can do is use a ride to network and meet others who might have the same vibes you do about riding or ability level or willingness to tackle challenges, and they you can ride with that person or people another time. I joined a local all women's team in CO a few years ago, and it has just about the widest spectrum of cyclists you can have on it (fresh newbies who have never done anything to pro road cyclists and mountain bikers). I love it because even if the group rides don't work out, I've met other ladies who are around my ability level (or are adventurous) and we often meet up and do stuff together.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Last night was the 4th in a series of free women's MTB clinics/trail rides sponsored by a local bike club and led by a local pro downhiller just back from Norway and Mammoth. I went to all 4 and rate them a big success. Everyone seemed to have a good time, whether the ride was a little over or under their ability level. Both walking and trying tough sections were encouraged. Super supportive leader and riders, fun dinner/drink/conversation afterwards. The 2nd and 3rd episodes had a beginner-specific clinic first, just an hour, but a great intro or supportive ride for women to get out with other women. 

For the record, no perverts were encountered, and some pain was experienced.

A few pics, not great but they give you the flavor...


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

do I detect big smiles on those faces?


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

Looks like a fun time was had by all.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

formica said:


> do I detect big smiles on those faces?


Why yes! From a better photographer at the previous clinics...
https://www.facebook.com/1477954419...0243346405373/688554447907596/?type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/147795441983502/photos/pcb.691909537572087/691907277572313/?type=1&theater


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

sooshee said:


> And pain, ha! I've been an orthopedic nurse for two years, let me tell you about young to middle aged men and their pain thresholds...


Truth


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Study says guys need to step it up for pedaling parity The reason fewer US women cycle than the Dutch is not what you think it is | Environment | theguardian.com


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

mtbxplorer said:


> Study says guys need to step it up for pedaling parity The reason fewer US women cycle than the Dutch is not what you think it is | Environment | theguardian.com


That's a super interesting article. And yes, that's exactly what keeps me from commuting more on my bike (and right now I only own a MTB).


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Perhaps Victoria Pendleton will...
http://www.buzzfeed.com/catesevilla/queen-vic-cycling-tips?utm_term=4ldqpia#4katdw


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

"Ignore the MAMILs (Middle Aged Men in Lycra) and go at your own pace....I got caught up with a male group of cyclists coming past, and they were very shouty and totally ruined the atmosphere....they weren’t necessarily the most skillful, shall I say. "

LOL.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Women Flex their Biking Muscles | Bacon's Rebellion

Some of the advice is not woman-specific... "Consider for yourself whether it's better to look fat on a bike, working toward your fitness, or in a car, making zero gains to your health. "


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Nice interview with Lindsay Voreis
Balance on Bike and in Life-Interview with Lindsey Voreis ⁊ Share It Fitness


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ Can't agree with her more on this: "Feel the freedom and make it a habit." At work the "wellness" people currently have a million minute challenge (in total), where they are trying to get people off the couch/car/desk and active for 150 minutes a week. Coincidentally, my "habit" is 90 minutes of bikecommute and 60 minutes of walking the dog in the woods per day. And pedaling, whether to work or on the trail, city or country, day or night, always makes me feel free.


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## GGR Girl Wendy (Mar 19, 2014)

Women are social...they want a fun, safe, relaxed environment still with some challenges. When vet female riders step up and organize/lead rides, get involved in their communities, put on workshops, events, etc, its' pretty easy to have others follow. We had 190 women at our GGR Rocktober event Sunday. Some of the pictures are up: Girlz Gone Riding - About GGR


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Schlepping By Bicycle: The Next Big Thing in Women?s Bike Advocacy? | Streetsblog USA


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Women find support in Philly biking community


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/go...sh-terrain-having-learned-mountain-bike-skill


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## petey15 (Sep 1, 2006)

Life on Two Wheels: Sexualizing Women-Can't We Be Real?

Great blog


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## petey15 (Sep 1, 2006)

Why No Y? - Pinkbike


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

petey15 said:


> Why No Y? - Pinkbike


I'm not sure I understand the title of the article... seems like there is plenty of Y in mountain biking.


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## petey15 (Sep 1, 2006)

^ The author was asking why guys aren't qualified to write about women mountain biking, or rather, asks why shouldn't he be able to write about women mountain bikers. I confess, when I first read the title, I was kind of confused and thought, here it comes, a guy telling everyone what it's like being a woman mountain biker. Instead, he takes a different spin and talks about why more women don't mountain bike, and why they should. He raises some good points about how the sport was created by dudes and the industry is run by dudes and most equipment focuses on dudes (he's observant  ). I'd like to think some progress has been made since the article was written in 2012, but we have a long way to go. I posted this because this is what we women have been saying - it's just interesting to see a guy saying the same thing.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Best tip: "You want people to think there's a party going on on your bike."

There's a Biking Gender Gap. And It Has a Real Economic Impact. - NationalJournal.com


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## kinsler (Sep 13, 2011)

petey15 said:


> ^ The author was asking why guys aren't qualified to write about women mountain biking, or rather, asks why shouldn't he be able to write about women mountain bikers. I confess, when I first read the title, I was kind of confused and thought, here it comes, a guy telling everyone what it's like being a woman mountain biker. Instead, he takes a different spin and talks about why more women don't mountain bike, and why they should. He raises some good points about how the sport was created by dudes and the industry is run by dudes and most equipment focuses on dudes (he's observant  ). I'd like to think some progress has been made since the article was written in 2012, but we have a long way to go. I posted this because this is what we women have been saying - it's just interesting to see a guy saying the same thing.


I welcome all perspectives and honestly found the comment section more interesting than the article, which typically is the case for pinkbike. I'd like to think most of use don't have a problem with a "guy's" perspective on women in mountain biking. After all, by virtue of even having this thread we want biking to be more inclusive.


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

I don't have trouble with a guy's perspective on women in mountain biking. It's frustrating, though, that men will listen to a guy, when they didn't listen to women saying exactly the same thing.


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## kinsler (Sep 13, 2011)

the other Anne said:


> I don't have trouble with a guy's perspective on women in mountain biking. It's frustrating, though, that men will listen to a guy, when they didn't listen to women saying exactly the same thing.


I hear you... I find that frustrating as well. My comment was in no way directed at anyone in particular. I guess my main point was I didn't honestly realize that this issue even existed. And I honestly think there are probably many guys who are way more qualified to discuss the gender gap in biking than I am. Particularly since I've never seen me riding a mountain bike as some gender defying activity... it's just riding a bike after al!

The fact is I am, like many of you, already indoctrinated into this sport- we post on bike forums, read pinkbike at work, own bikes worth more than our cars. I'm in 100% and not sure why other women aren't. I can speculate, but that's all it is.


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## VideoboyMatt (Feb 11, 2014)

Christieland said:


> There has to be a place in between a) bad ass "ballsy" men and b) "safe, communal and inclusive."
> 
> There are plenty of women who are attracted to doing things that are not safe, communal, or inclusive, but who aren't as ballsy or bad ass as some men (and yet still enjoy community with follow bad ass girls).
> 
> ...


This is exacly how my girlfriend feels. We have been busy trying to get female groups together in Orlando for this very reason. Many of the bike shops almost insult women. My GF went to a local shop and they tried to sell her a beach cruiser with a basket on it. She made fun of the guy, and asked if it came with a puppy.

I have been riding since the mid 90's and found the industry is finally starting to change and take women more seriously. I am finally starting to see bikes like LIV and Juliana who are making women's bikes that aren't downgraded, or wussy jokes.

Working with a local bike shop who sees the potential of doubling their sales, we are working on how to attract more women into the sport. What we are finding is much of it starts with the bike shops and bikes being offered. We get told by women we know that they don't know where to start, they don't want a pansy bike, but they also want something that isn't ugly. Bike shops can be intimidating, especially if it is only staffed by men who don't understand, or don't care, or are of the oldschool mindset. Many bike shops don't stock women's bikes, or not good ones.

Also a key factor is the perceived entry price to biking. Many shops will tell you that you need a $3k bike. For someone just getting into the sport, and might be on the fence that is a huge investment. So I always try to help people find a quality used bike, clearance sale, or value bike in the $5-800 range. It is far easier to get someone to take a leap if they feel they can afford it, and bike snobs won't make fun of them.


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## VideoboyMatt (Feb 11, 2014)

petey15 said:


> ^ The author was asking why guys aren't qualified to write about women mountain biking, or rather, asks why shouldn't he be able to write about women mountain bikers. I confess, when I first read the title, I was kind of confused and thought, here it comes, a guy telling everyone what it's like being a woman mountain biker. Instead, he takes a different spin and talks about why more women don't mountain bike, and why they should. He raises some good points about how the sport was created by dudes and the industry is run by dudes and most equipment focuses on dudes (he's observant  ). I'd like to think some progress has been made since the article was written in 2012, but we have a long way to go. I posted this because this is what we women have been saying - it's just interesting to see a guy saying the same thing.


My first real bike was a Kona Cinder Cone in '95, I was 15 at the time. The industry has taken 20 years since that point to really embrace female riders. It's amazing to me that it's taken this long, as the bike companies could literally double their sales if they just marketed more to women. My girlfriend has recently gotten into XC racing, and we go from shop to shop, and there are still remnants of the old way of doing things..shops trying to sell crap to women thinking they don't know any better, or worse yet, not carrying anything that appeals to women at all. Having a girlfriend that I strongly encourage to ride, and totally support her racing, I am always surprised when the gender gap becomes apparent. You almost feel like the air is sucked out of the room. We find outselves going to shops that cater to women more, and that have female employees, as my GF just feels more comfortable. Some men understand because we are more in tuned to it. I remember when my GF came home crying because she went to a shop to buy a bike, and the shop owner this old french asshat guy treated her "like a girl" and was condescending towards her thinking she didn't know what she was talking about. She ended up buying a Kona at another shop, who we are now super good friends with, and have bought several bikes from since.

When I was 15 I never really thought much about it..now that I am 34, it is as clear as night and day. The shops and brands that really cater to women, and aren't just pandering will take off and flourish. The rest will become dinosaurs.


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## GGR Girl Wendy (Mar 19, 2014)

@videoboymatt: Is your GF on here? She could think about starting a GGR: Girlz Gone Riding Chapter. Its easy! Get involved with your local IMBA chapter and about 3 key bike shops. They need to be trained. We can guide you through this, GGR is a non dues club. No cost in setting up unless she wants business cards which is a good idea.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Just a fe anecdotes from an old mountain biker. 

The first time I noticed a lot of women on the trails was in Fernie, BC, 9-10 years ago. I was there fore a few days and was out solo with the local map when a group of 7 invited to show me the trails. What was unusual about this group was that it comprised 5 women and 2 men. I met a lot of riders on the trail there and women were in the majority. Probably not representative, but it showed a strong women's riding community.

2nd place is where I live now in Cumberland, BC. Still more men than women, but a lot of women ride here. There is a huge Wednesday night crew that we run into constantly and compete with for space at the local pizzeria. Some are local legends.

3rd was an eye opener for me. My friends and I entered a nearby enduro race and were soundly thrashed by a 12 year old girl. She looked small for 12, and although I learned not to judge a book by it's cover years ago, I was pretty surprised at her time.


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## VideoboyMatt (Feb 11, 2014)

GGR Girl Wendy said:


> @videoboymatt: Is your GF on here? She could think about starting a GGR: Girlz Gone Riding Chapter. Its easy! Get involved with your local IMBA chapter and about 3 key bike shops. They need to be trained. We can guide you through this, GGR is a non dues club. No cost in setting up unless she wants business cards which is a good idea.


Thanks for the info. I will pass it on. She reads the forums a lot, but doesn't comment often. She mainly uses them to find answers to parts questions she has assuming someone else probably already asked the same question.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Travis Bickle said:


> 2nd place is where I live now in Cumberland, BC. Still more men than women, but a lot of women ride here. There is a huge Wednesday night crew that we run into constantly and compete with for space at the local pizzeria. Some are local legends.


Ha, pizza is the key to getting more women (and men for that matter) on the trails. Last night was raining, very wet, and muddy. Our ride was small, just 3 die hards, and by the time we showed up for pizza the shop was pretty full of women mtbers, with more showing up. To quote and anonymous female rider "pretty dirty out there, but it's a good dirty". I hope that's not offensive, her words not mine.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Travis Bickle said:


> Ha, pizza is the key to getting more women (and men for that matter) on the trails. Last night was raining, very wet, and muddy. Our ride was small, just 3 die hards, and by the time we showed up for pizza the shop was pretty full of women mtbers, with more showing up. To quote and anonymous female rider "pretty dirty out there, but it's a good dirty". I hope that's not offensive, her words not mine.


An important aspect of riding is socializing and building relationships. It can be an age-related group, racing /training group, weekend/weekday meet ups etc. We like to connect and build a social life. Conversation goes well with food.... and a lot of the talk isn't always about bikes


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

While I have no doubt there's a gender gap in MTB participation, it clearly varies in intensity from place to place. Local culture and access to trails plays a large roll. Travis Bickle's experience points to that too. 

For example, I live in a small city in Montana surrounded by open land with trails adjacent to residential neighborhoods and downtown. I probably know nearly as many women who ride as men. Some ride in groups of girlfriends, some ride in regularly scheduled ladies' rides, some ride in coed groups, and some ride solo. Or all of the above. Mountain biking is not a fringe activity here, the way that it was in the VA suburbs where I grew up. Here it's another popular outdoor activity, in addition to trail running, paddling, skiing, etc. The bottom line is probably that their friends are doing it, and it looks like fun.


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

In my area, when I go for a ride I probably see five guys riding for every woman I see. I don't ride advanced techy stuff, only beginner/intermediate stuff, but I have no doubt that the gender ratio is at least as unbalanced on the more technical trails as well.

Next time you go for a ride, count the other riders you see by gender. Most places, most times, you'll see a lot more men than women.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

the other Anne said:


> Next time you go for a ride, count the other riders you see by gender. Most places, most times, you'll see a lot more men than women.


I'm not disputing that. My point is that it's not that way everywhere, and there are some reasons why that's the case.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

That can be changed. There are definitely more women on the trails around here than there used to be. Having women's events and shops that promote/support them really helps. I still love the gaping jaw look our riding group gets when we are out of the trail.


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

For sure, evasive and formica.


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## SummerLRH (Jul 25, 2012)

There seem to be more women getting into the sport, it's so exciting!

I feel like clinics can inspire confidence which fosters the interest (and love) of the sport.

I was scared of bikes my entire life because of a bad fall as a kid. I ended up taking a MTB clinic with a friend after she said, "You think you know how to ride a bike but there's more to it than just pedaling and a clinic will teach you what you need to know." She was right! Starting with the basics in a supportive environment was the best thing for me.

Ladies AllRide - Home


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

From the Dig In blog - profile of a large women's riding group in Idaho
https://www.imba.com/blog/dig-women-mtb/dig-lessons-idahos-dirt-dolls-organizing-womens-mtb-groups


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

More women participating in cycling | Local News - Central Coast News KION

https://www.ibikeride.com/news/2570-how-do-we-get-more-women-into-mountain-biking


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Cycle track sees uptick in female riders | Metro News

Would you be/are you more likely to ride on road if you have a cycle track separated from cars? Do you know what percentage of the riders are women in your area? I'd say the 27% found in Calgary is higher than around here, but I'll have to see if I can find any numbers.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

I heard "cycle track" and thought velodrome, ha!

I already road ride, so there's really not much that would change that for me. Blessed with good back roads with big shoulders around where I live, in part thanks to our state and federal highway administrators being competitive cyclists and a strong backing for big shoulders on roads.


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