# Are e-bikes the great equalizer?



## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

I suppose it's true for an old guy that an e-bike can instill youth and vitality back into your riding, but all things considered, will e-bikes level the playing field between gonzo bikers and everyday putzes? Can an old guy like me (the everyday putze) on an e-bike keep up with a young dude/dudess in prime biking shape if we're both on e-bikes?

Just how much horsepower does the pedal assist account for when we're both on what are basically "class 1 ebikes”.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Well it's like normal bikes. If you ride in turbo and they are in eco them someone will run out quicker...


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

If you are reasonable fit and put out 250 watts and you friend is not with 125 watts. At the same weight of 185lb with 35lb bikes you will go up a 7% grade 97% faster.

If you are on specialized Levo ebikes with 750 watts at 52lb.
You are only 10% faster up the same hill.


The answer is YES.

I ride eco when everyone else is in trail and always have extra left in the battery.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

No.

E-bikes massively favour light weight riders.

Simple math, Take a 50kg rider on a 25kg E-bike. Lets say that rider can hold about 150 watts, add that to the 750 watts motor giving them 900watts or 12 watts/kg. Put a 100kg rider on the same bike, but the 100kg rider can hold 300 watts, giving them 1050 watts or 8.4watts/kg. 

The 50kg rider would absolutely leave the heavier rider for dead. But if they were climbing on bio-bikes the heavier rider would actually be a tiny bit quicker.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Equalization is pretty much the main reason I got into eMTBs.

In the early days of the pandemic, riding with my SO was pretty much the only thing we could do. The eMTB was originally a thing _for her_... but then we very quickly began to realize that it would be even better as a thing _for us_. All that needed to be done was for her to ride at a higher level of assist than me. And using the same model of eMTBs featuring trail-removable batteries (Levos), we could easily equalize the charge consumption (by swapping batteries) on longer rides.

Now, if you're talking about if you as an older guy can keep up with a younger guy in a semi-competitive fashion, both on eMTBs... then no. Both of you assholes will just be blasting down the trail in the highest assist modes ("Turbo") for the greatest advantage you can give yourselves to prove... something?

But if you guys actually want to ride with each other, and not mutually manifest thinly-veiled sadistic urges to see your friend suffer so you can casually lord your superiority over him... then yeah, it's super-easy to adjust your eMTBs so that everybody gets a great ride and hit the beers after without anybody being disproportionately destroyed.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Nerd stuff and stats aside, my son and I had a good laugh when my brother and his woman on their new e-bikes could not keep up on some short steep climbs and we dropped them big time via cornering and bike handling.

I'm in my 60s with some aging issues showing up so I expect them to do some sort of equalizing for me at some point.

Here's where they are for sure equalizers. As a trail builder I had a very touching moment when a 79 year old man and his son thanked me for the work and he shed some tears over still being able to be out riding with his son and keeping an active life style going and be thrilled where the trail work has gone. My brother's woman I mentioned has had some troubling health issues and surgeries. Her e-bike has her back doing what's been special for much of her life.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

mudflap said:


> I suppose it's true for an old guy that an e-bike can instill youth and vitality back into your riding, but all things considered, will e-bikes level the playing field between gonzo bikers and everyday putzes? Can an old guy like me (the everyday putze) on an e-bike keep up with a young dude/dudess in prime biking shape if we're both on e-bikes?
> 
> Just how much horsepower does the pedal assist account for when we're both on what are basically "motor" cycles?


of course but when it turns downhill your on your own


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

There are basics

being lean is good and very good going up
being in shape is a plus


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## Noplacelikeloam (Mar 2, 2021)

alexbn921 said:


> If you are reasonable fit and put out 250 watts and you friend is not with 125 watts. At the same weight of 185lb with 35lb bikes you will go up a 7% grade 97% faster.
> 
> If you are on specialized Levo ebikes with 750 watts at 52lb.
> You are only 10% faster up the same hill.
> ...


To my knowledge and a little research, ebikes are limited to 500W peak, but are closer to 250W nominal. So while they can 4X your power that only applies up to your peak output. So therefore a light weak rider has a lot more to gain than a heavy or strong rider. So if you can put down 400 watts for a while, its not going to be much help. But if you struggle with 150 watts, BOOM!


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Noplacelikeloam said:


> To my knowledge and a little research, ebikes are limited to 500W peak, but are closer to 250W nominal. So while they can 4X your power that only applies up to your peak output. So therefore a light weak rider has a lot more to gain than a heavy or strong rider. So if you can put down 400 watts for a while, its not going to be much help. But if you struggle with 150 watts, BOOM!


Your knowledge and research is wrong.


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## Noplacelikeloam (Mar 2, 2021)

alexbn921 said:


> Your knowledge and research is wrong.


Well I bet you're fun at parties. Well, that data comes from EMTB. So OK then, help us all out and maybe add a little color and refs to your POV.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Noplacelikeloam said:


> To my knowledge and a little research, ebikes are limited to 500W peak


750 watts (just a hair over 1 horsepower) is the Federal limit, as is California, to be considered an e-bike in the context of classification for public use (i.e. Class I, II, and III).

Edit: memory fail correction. 1 HP = 746 watts. So a hair _over_, not a hair _under_


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## Noplacelikeloam (Mar 2, 2021)

DtEW said:


> 750 watts (just a hair under 1 horsepower) is the Federal limit, as is California, to be considered an e-bike in the context of classification for public use (i.e. Class I, II, and III).


Thank you! Good to know. Is there anywhere a comparison of output per bike?


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

Not really...but helps

say your the same weight and bike is same weight.

young dude puts out more human watts than you. You will need to rely on the ebike watts (higher power modes) to makeup for the shortage of human watts.

Youll especially notice this up steeper sections.....


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Depends how lame your trails are.


Yesterday a couple guys say on my left in a flat area too tight to allow passing so I pull over. Look down, ebikes. 30 seconds later the trail gets rough and I'm hanging on the brakes bored out of my mind a couple feet off the rear of the tail end bike. I wish common sense would set in and have them just dial down the assistance instead of passing. So no, bike doesn't separate skill involved.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

What it does is riding with a non assisted rider who is in better shape.
Let say you are 70 using your assisted bike you can ride with your kid or neighbour
that will enjoy their ride not having to slow down for you.


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

mudflap said:


> I suppose it's true for an old guy that an e-bike can instill youth and vitality back into your riding, but all things considered, will e-bikes level the playing field between gonzo bikers and everyday putzes? Can an old guy like me (the everyday putze) on an e-bike keep up with a young dude/dudess in prime biking shape if we're both on e-bikes?
> 
> Just how much horsepower does the pedal assist account for when we're both on what are basically "motor" cycles?


lmao got some news for u, its all the young guys that are riding the ebikes. real cyclists are a rare breed.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Don't bring a knife to gunfight.
Get one of these and let everybody else worry about equalizing.








Costs about the same as a good ebike.
=sParty


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

mudflap said:


> I suppose it's true for an old guy that an e-bike can instill youth and vitality back into your riding, but all things considered, will e-bikes level the playing field between gonzo bikers and everyday putzes? Can an old guy like me (the everyday putze) on an e-bike keep up with a young dude/dudess in prime biking shape if we're both on e-bikes?
> 
> Just how much horsepower does the pedal assist account for when we're both on what are basically "motor" cycles?


Nope. 
Gonzo bikers vs Every day riders will never be equalized. E-bikes can only add power making up for lesser fitness and leg strength. They cannot make up for less skills or bravery. If your only issue is not being as fit you can hop on an e-bike and keep up with more fit riders with similar skills on regular bikes. But only up to 20 mph anyway. Remember though that "gonzo" bikers probably have more skills or bravery too. No motor can make up for that. 

Of course if everyone goes to e-bikes we are pretty much back at where we started.


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## fredman1085 (10 mo ago)

DtEW said:


> Equalization is pretty much the main reason I got into eMTBs.
> 
> In the early days of the pandemic, riding with my SO was pretty much the only thing we could do. The eMTB was originally a thing _for her_... but then we very quickly began to realize that it would be even better as a thing _for us_. All that needed to be done was for her to ride at a higher level of assist than me. And using the same model of eMTBs featuring trail-removable batteries (Levos), we could easily equalize the charge consumption (by swapping batteries) on longer rides.
> 
> ...


I agree. I really got my e-bike so I could keep up with my son on his standard bike. I started riding in E-MTB mode (Trek's 3rd highest level) but now I spend 95% of my ride in ECO mode, with or without him. I hang with him on the climbs and he waits for me on the descents. I still want a workout when I ride, max HR usually in the high 170's and avg in the 140's) and believe me, using the lower power settings does that for me. As I hope most of believe, don't be a dick out there, be polite to other trail users, and just have fun.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

DtEW said:


> Both of you assholes will just be blasting down the trail in the highest assist modes ("Turbo") for the greatest advantage you can give yourselves to prove... something?


Awseome.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Sparticus said:


> Don't bring a knife to gunfight.
> Get one of these and let everybody else worry about equalizing.
> View attachment 1981025
> 
> ...


Yeah, right? Like bringing a wand to a light saber fight.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Great equalizer if you have the normal decent skill set of riding, but only on the climbs. If the other ebiker is in better shape, just adjust the power output of the bikes and again, this will help on the climbs. An ebike will not help you much on the downhills.

Got a chance to ride ebikes with Gwin, he rode ECO and we stayed in trail mode👍🏼 We all climbed together to the top in one happy group. Gwin did not know the trail system we were on, so the downhill section, we all pretty much stayed together as well.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Yeah I've had guys say oh your on an ebike after a downhill or a techy uphill section like it was all the bike, and I say nope it doesn't really help in those situations and they say "uh huh sure"  Seriously tho in those situations it feels exactly like a regular mtb


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

Except the extra power can definitely help in the tech sections where you need a solid partial pedal stroke IE lifting the front up.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I honestly have not made any section on the emtb that I didn't make on my regular mtb, I have cleaned some climbs that involve more leg/lung power that I didn't on my regular mtb, but those techy sections are more about technique and line choice.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

In techy sections, the abrupt power delivery of my ebike throws me off more than helps me.
I clean tech sections with far more aplomb when I'm aboard my Amish bike.
=sParty


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Tickle said:


> Yeah I've had guys say oh your on an ebike after a downhill or a techy uphill section like it was all the bike, and I say nope it doesn't really help in those situations and they say "uh huh sure"  Seriously tho in those situations it feels exactly like a regular mtb


You are definitely right! I was behind an ebiker going up a hill with to what seems to me an easy rock step up. He had to get off and push his bike up it. 

The guy that got me into Ebikes, his normal trails are wide open. He came to my area with several switch backs on the climbs. He didn’t make one switch back on this climb and my Strava time on my pedal bike was quite a bit faster. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I was at a mountain bike race this past weekend. After the DH I watched the short track event. The ebike class was quite a bit faster than Cat 1, but winning an ebike event is like saying you're the smartest retard.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

milehi said:


> I was at a mountain bike race this past weekend. After the DH I watched the short track event. The ebike class was quite a bit faster than Cat 1, but winning an ebike event is like saying you're the smartest retard.


I have to laugh at your comment milehi.
Even thought we both know it's ridiculous, it's funny.
Ever watch motocross? NASCAR?
Ebike racing certainly isn't mountain bike racing but that doesn't mean powersports aren't real competition.
=sParty


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Sparticus said:


> I have to laugh at your comment milehi.
> Even thought we both know it's ridiculous, it's funny.
> Ever watch motocross? NASCAR?
> Ebike racing certainly isn't mountain bike racing but that doesn't mean powersports aren't real competition.
> =sParty


I'm completely rediculous. I've never watched NASCAR before but I raced MX in high school. We had a team that raced against other schools.


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

My old riding partner, rest his soul, was in front of me on his ebike as we approached a short steep with some loose rock scattered across the trail. Right about the time I was about to put the pedal to the metal, he wheelies up and over damn near on top of me.
It was hard to keep from cracking up as I hurried to his aid.
Not funny, but I had to laugh. He wasn't ready for the assist to kick in, and when it did, over backwards he went.
Right then I realized I gotta get me one of those.


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## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

We bought an ebike for my sweetheart this year to help with heart rate issues. Her HR would spike into the max zone just riding the short hill section going to the local park (one mile, fairly flat) and would stay maxed out during the whole ride. We ride with people about 10 yrs younger and they could leave us about anytime they wanted. She was cooked early on and did not enjoy making us wait. So, our intention is to try to even out her heart rate and allow her to keep up on climbs. The other day while discussing it..... she told me she can't wait to " smoke us" on the climbs. Even things out., yeah, right.


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