# XCM/XCO World Cup Equipment...



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I was going to post this on 2016 WC thread, but I changed my mind...I think we need a World Cup Equipment thread and leave the other one focused on racing...

1. SRAM Eagle 1x12

Bike Rumor mentioned Nino using/testing the new SRAM Eagle 1x12. I know the top pros provide input on product development, but I wonder if eventually this new system will be used at the XC top level. ( it will..eventually...or maybe be miss like the RS-1). XC courses are getting shorter, climbs are pure power and speed compared to the low grinders of the past...Do XC riders really need a 50t out back? All they did was slap a 50t cog!!! We've all seen Jaro push a 38t/10-42 with ease and win races easily...I don't think either him or the other guys need that 50t piggy...

2. Fox forks..

Anything special besides the orange colors on the Fox forks we keep seeing?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

I think you can be certain that Nino Schurter, and the other SRAM sponsored riders, will be using SRAM XX1 Eagle when racing the World Cups. It's what they're paid to do.

The main argument for XX1 Eagle seems to be that they can use a larger front chainring, whilst still having the climbing gears available, so that top end straight line speed is higher when called for.

What SRAM really ought to begin offering are some different size XD driver cassettes, rather than their one size fits all cassette 10-42 (and now 10-50) that they have been doing with 1x11 speed and 1x12 speed so far. That would open up more options for gearing choices.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

WR304 said:


> The main argument for XX1 Eagle seems to be that they can use a larger front chainring, whilst still having the climbing gears available, so that top end straight line speed is higher when called for.


SRAM Eagle goes only to 38t rings and the 40t ring is still under testing says the release. Nino uses a 36t ring always. I honestly don't think he needs the 50 cog out back. All other cogs are exactly they same as in the 11 speed 10-42. One thing to consider tough, which frames can accept a 40t ring up front in a 1x set up? I don't think many...


----------



## NoahColorado (Aug 3, 2004)

How long until Eagle eTap?


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Saw something of Facebook this morning about Nino running a 40T on the front with the 10-50 out back.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

yeah...I saw the picture...


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I have to wonder how often anyone would actually use a 40x10, on a 27.5" wheel, in a WC XCO-style race.

40tx10t, on a 27.5x2.0" tire, at 100rpm, is 32.1mph/51.6kmh.

At this point, it seems like they are adding weight BACK to the bike.

The new, 2017 Cannondale Scalpel looks awesome, BTW. Two bottle cages, ASRc-like geometry.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

2. Fox Forks: Big weight savings. Boost only.

1. Eagle: I think SRAM missed it on this one. I think they focused too much on range, versus jumps between gears. Personally I would have replaced the 10 with an 11 and then made spacing a bit tighter. The jump from the 42 to 50 is just brutal, it would be nice for the 2nd cog to be bigger or the large cog to be a bit smaller.

For the majority of riders though the 50 matched with a 32 is the way to go. WC courses have gotten very steep the last couple of years and a lot of riders were struggling with gear options. I know guys with thresholds over 5.5 watts/kg who were racing with 30T front chain rings matched with a 42T rear and looking for more late in the race.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LMN, I was hoping for your 2 cents on the forks as you might have seen it first hand...

I have seen the Orange Crush on pictures of Absalon, Ettinger and others who ride Fox but not necessarily Boost. Is it only Boost benefiting from this then?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> LMN, I was hoping for your 2 cents on the forks as you might have seen it first hand...
> 
> I have seen the Orange Crush on pictures of Absalon, Ettinger and others who ride Fox but not necessarily Boost. Is it only Boost benefiting from this then?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The forks visually are quite a bit different then their old forks. As I said the big difference is the weight savings. I don't have exact numbers so I don't want to give any numbers. But Catharine's new bike is significantly lighter then last years, and the only change is fork.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Interesting...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Saw this elsewhere:


----------



## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

Tagging this one.


----------



## ghughes.hesinc (Jun 10, 2009)

RS VR6 said:


> Saw something of Facebook this morning about Nino running a 40T on the front with the 10-50 out back.


I wonder how many frames can actually clear a 40t with a decent chainline? I don't think my Stumpy would, had a 36t on it...38 might have fit...


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

The Scalpel looks good...

And that Fox Orange Crush is very light!!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## m3bas (Dec 24, 2011)

I don't get anywhere near the 10 cog on XCO races nor most XCM stuff, even if we hit tarmac- 34-10 i'd need to be doing over 50km/hr to be even near spinning out.
Some options on the 11 or new 12 would be great- 10-42 on the 12 speed but with an extra cog in there to smooth the jumps. Or a 12-42 for the 11 for the vast majority of XCO type stuff?


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm interested in what tires (size and tread pattern) the WC pro's are racing on. That's where the rubber meets the road (dirt).


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

Boost only makes me sad on the Fox, but such is "progress". I think I can get adapters for most of our wheels.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Saw this elsewhere:
> View attachment 1059553


Ah so the photo of Catharine's for is out there.

Just as an FYI that is with an un-cut steer-tube and it is an ICD fork.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Dam son!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Nino raced and won in a sprint on his hardtail yesterday. Good to see the hardtail is still in the rotation.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Stonerider said:


> Nino raced and won in a sprint on his hardtail yesterday. Good to see the hardtail is still in the rotation.


...and without SRAM Eagle...


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

I wonder if SRAM is going to have him run it at the World Cup races. These small races don't see much media wide coverage.


----------



## sandyf (Sep 3, 2012)

If the SRAM-sponsored WC guys end up running Eagle, I would bet their main argument is going to be that they can get higher cadences on steep climbs, rather than the higher sprint gearing. I've seen many WC riders grinding up steeps, but rarely do I see someone completely spun-out resulting in a lost sprint. Just a guess, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

In the Pinkbike comments about SRAM XX1 "spread" Eagle there was one that made me smile, as it had a hint of truth about it.

The 50 tooth sprocket lets you run a 1x11 drivetrain, only it comes with a spoke guard that you won't be teased about.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/sram-eagle-12-speed-drivetrain-first-ride-2016.html

It could maybe have saved Jaroslav Kulhavy from breaking his hand:

http://jaroslavkulhavy.cz/en/jaroslav-has-broken-hand-after-crash/

_"The news which came from Cyprus today are not good. Jaroslav broke his hand during the second part of Sunshine Cup race. It is an unpleasant complication on the beggining of the olympic season.

"I've got a plaster. It seems it's a double fracture. I'm heading to Motol hospital in Prague and we will know more tomorrow&#8230;" told Jaroslav after he left Cyprus hospital.

"In the second lap my chain fell off of behind the cassette in the downhill. I put it back and when I started to pedal hard again, maybe one of the links were broken and it send me over the bars. Unfortunately there was some small rock and I fell a level down. I heard some bad sounds coming from my hand, so I knew immediately it's not good&#8230;" said Jaroslav less than six months before olympic games in Rio."_


----------



## Tyrone Shoelaces (Nov 6, 2006)

I've been curious about these new Bontrager (carbon?) wheels that are seen here on Emily's bike. Have seem them on a few others from the Trek team as well.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I also questioned the same thing on the 2016 WC thread...

Some mentioned the look like the DT Swiss carbon wheels on the Top Fuel and Procaliber, but for me it does not makes sense. Those stock wheels are XMC 1200 and weight more than the Bontrager XXX aluminum wheels...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

carlostruco said:


> I also questioned the same thing on the 2016 WC thread...
> 
> Some mentioned the look like the DT Swiss carbon wheels on the Top Fuel and Procaliber, but for me it does not makes sense. Those stock wheels are XMC 1200 and weight more than the Bontrager XXX aluminum wheels...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That was me.

The XMC 1200s weigh 1445g, the Bontrager wheels weigh 1440g. Let's call that a wash.

The XMCs are wider internally than the Bontragers are externally.

They are also a much, much stiffer wheel.

They've also been using DT hub internals for at least a decade now; rebranding rims or co-owning a mold doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Sorry...I forgot...

Two close friends of mine have that wheelset...one in 27.5 and the other in the 29er flavor. Yes, they are wide and stiff, and the look really good, but for a carbon wheelset, I thought the would be lighter. 

I rode some trails with the guy that owns the 29er version, and I took the front wheel of his Trek (DT Swiss XMC 1200/Bonts XR2 2.2/Shimano Ice Tech SM-RT86)in one hand and mine (DT Swiss XR1501/Conti RK 2.2 Protection/Shimano Ice Tech SM-RT99 rotor), and to be honest, I could not feel any difference in weight. 

But they roll so good and look so hot!!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

FWIW, my Enve XCs on DT 240s are 18mm wide internally and weigh slightly more, if I remember correctly.

Adding another 6mm of internal width while reducing weight is pretty impressive.


----------



## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> FWIW, my Enve XCs on DT 240s are 18mm wide internally and weigh slightly more, if I remember correctly.
> 
> Adding another 6mm of internal width while reducing weight is pretty impressive.


Some amazing 29er lighter weight XC rims on wheel builds out there these days.

Enve M50's...

Total Wheelset Weight: 1402g
Material:Carbon FiberRim 
Depth:28 External 
Rim Width:27 
Internal Rim Width:21
ERD:601
Built Weight Set:1402
Rim Weight Set:730
Recommended Tire Size:1.9 in - 2.25 in

Roval Control SL's...

Total Wheelset Weight: 1370g
Rim Type: Carbon clincher, tubeless-ready, Zero Bead Hook design
Rim Material: Carbon fiber
Rim Width: 30mm external, 22mm internal
Front Spoke Pattern: Radial/Three-cross (2:1)
Rear Spoke Pattern: Three-cross (1:1)
Spoke Count: 24 front, 28 rear
Spoke Type: DT Swiss Revolution

Light Bicycle rims in the 360-370g category for those who want to build their own with their flavor of hubs/spokes/nipples.


Industry Nine Torch Ultralites...

Total Wheelset Weight: 1355g (depending on options)
Rim Weight Set: 750g
External Width: 25
Internal Width: 21


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

If you use BikeAhead's carbon spoked wheel (sub-1200g 27-622 clincher), you can make your 29er like a real wagon wheeler. 

bike ahead composites biturbo RS wheels - bike ahead composites


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

I just saw Julien Abalon's 2016 BMC "soft tail". The bike was set up with Shimano XTR 1x11 and Continental Race Kings. If he wasn't sponsored by Shimano, I'd tell him to swap out the XTR 11-40 cassette for SRAM XX1 10-42. I know the XTR rear derailleur can handle the 10-42 cassette because I'm running that set up on my bike. The SRAM XX1 cassette is also lighter than the XTR cassette.


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

Stonerider said:


> I just saw Julien Abalon's 2016 BMC "soft tail". The bike was set up with Shimano XTR 1x11 and Continental Race Kings. If he wasn't sponsored by Shimano, I'd tell him to swap out the XTR 11-40 cassette for SRAM XX1 10-42. I know the XTR rear derailleur can handle the 10-42 cassette because I'm running that set up on my bike. The SRAM XX1 cassette is also lighter than the XTR cassette.











Looks like he will be riding his FS tomorrow.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Sporting a dropped too.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

When is Fox going to give us the stats on that new orange fork their top pro racers are showing off?


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Sea Otter is likely where we'll see lots of new product intros, so 2-3 weeks.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Apparently, the Eagle left the nest today...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Wow, that Fox fork is very XC race specific

Singletrack Magazine | New Fox 32 SC Launches

They must have jumped the gun on public release of that info as the article is gone, along with the video they had posted. Sea Otter it is then.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Interesting. There's an Edge 25 on the stem too. No power, no 1s recording, crap GPS performance in tree cover. But REALLY light.


carlostruco said:


> Apparently, the Eagle left the nest today...


Abasalon looks to be using something like a Forerunner 620 taped to his bars.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I don't think I have ever seen Nino do a race with a PM...neither Absalon...but I could be wrong...


----------



## CulBaire (Jan 18, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> I don't think I have ever seen Nino do a race with a PM...neither Absalon...but I could be wrong...


I am sure there was a thread some two (?) years ago that had a Training Peaks link with Nino's power data from a WC Race. He doesn't appear to have used a PM in recent times however unless he is running a stages.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

CulBaire said:


> I am sure there was a thread some two (?) years ago that had a Training Peaks link with Nino's power data from a WC Race. He doesn't appear to have used a PM in recent times however unless he is running a stages.


He and his team are sponsored by SRAM...and he does use a Quarq on his training bikes.


----------



## Tyrone Shoelaces (Nov 6, 2006)

here's that Fox fork:
First Look! Fox 32 SC ultralight (and narrow) XC suspension fork - Bikerumor


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I think I saw a video with Sabine Spitz riding Bike Ahead Biturbo's...maybe it was at Riviera...


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Tyrone Shoelaces said:


> here's that Fox fork:
> First Look! Fox 32 SC ultralight (and narrow) XC suspension fork - Bikerumor


Dang! Looks like I'll have to give up my 2.35 Ikon on the front if I went with the Fox 32 SC. It has a 2.3 max tire size.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

CulBaire said:


> I am sure there was a thread some two (?) years ago that had a Training Peaks link with Nino's power data from a WC Race. He doesn't appear to have used a PM in recent times however unless he is running a stages.


It was this one from the 2014 Swiss Championships: 

https://home.trainingpeaks.com/athlete/workout/JH5YYBD2GFBGANFSVEARKY5REA










Post #94 
https://forums.mtbr.com/xc-racing-t...t-there-887710-post11352520.html#post11352520

.


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

pics, pics, pics

Bikes of this year's Cape Epic. Interestingly, the winning team (Bulls, Platt/Huber) with 2x10. I guess they missed the memo that you're not allowed to enter the trails without a single setup anymore 

Bikecheck: Das fahren die Profis beim Cape Epic - MTB-News.de

Bikecheck (2): Spektakuläre Bikes und Parts vom Cape Epic - MTB-News.de


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Tyrone Shoelaces said:


> I've been curious about these new Bontrager (carbon?) wheels that are seen here on Emily's bike. Have seen them on a few others from the Trek team as well.
> 
> View attachment 1060921


Bontrager launched their new Line XXX and Kovee carbon wheels today.

The Bontrager Line XXX rims have an internal width of 29mm and depth of 29mm with a claimed weight of 435g for the 29er rim.

The Bontrager Kovee rims have an internal width of 29mm and depth of 27mm with a claimed weight of 375g for the 29er rim:

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/a...er-seatpost-wheels-details-spec-prices-46856/

.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

What equipment choices stood out for you from the first WC race? 

I'd say the Sram Eagle 1x12 drive-train made an impressive debut by winning the first WC race.

I wonder if Julien was running a Conti protection version on the rear when he flatted? If not for that flat, it could have been an exciting battle for the win.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Stonerider said:


> What equipment choices stood out for you from the first WC race?
> 
> I'd say the Sram Eagle 1x12 drive-train made an impressive debut by winning the first WC race.
> 
> I wonder if Julien was running a Conti protection version on the rear when he flatted? If not for that flat, it could have been an exciting battle for the win.


Bike Radar published a piece in their website about Julien's bike, and in those pics, Conti's didn't read Protection on the side.

Interesting was the dropper post and front hub on Absalon's bike.

I don't think the Eagle made a difference on winning the race or not as Nino's fastest lap was 15 seconds slower that a XTR bike...

Step Cast fork? Maybe...but I'm still curious about wheels of Trek Factory Racing...


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

How about those carbon spoke wheels that Kathrin Stirnemann was running?


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bike Ahead Bi Turbo...

Very light under 1300g...

Very very very expensive!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Wowzer, 1000gms for a 27.5 wheelset and a max rider weight of 85kg, and 3700€

EB15: Bike Ahead's 1kg AC One XC Wheelset, plus more for Road and Trail - Bikerumor


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

carlostruco said:


> Bike Radar published a piece in their website about Julien's bike, and in those pics, Conti's didn't read Protection on the side.
> 
> Interesting was the dropper post and front hub on Absalon's bike.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the Bike Radar reference. Yes it looks like he had the Racesport version of the Race King on his rear wheel in the photos for the article. I bet if he had a "do over" he'd choose the protection version of the Race King on the rear wheel...especially considering how long it took the mechanic to change the wheel.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I think SRAM Eagle is a fantastic product because it essentially does away with the front derailleur for good, and good riddance. I can't wait to see an Etap version and a road 1x12 version as well. I have been debating going with Force 1x11 on my road bike, now that road-sized narrow-wide chainrings are available.

The Notubes Valor 29 wheelset is 1340 grams and I've been enjoying that for a couple of years now. That new Fox fork is getting really light but... the Lefty is still lighter, and much stiffer, and I've been enjoying that for a few years too  

I do envy some of the new FS XC frames; some great work is being done to make them significantly lighter. The new Scalpel is smoking hot.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Julien Absalon's BMC Fourstroke FS01 with dropper post from Cairns:

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/a...with-shimano-di2-and-dropper-post-2016-46913/

Nino Schurter's Scott Spark 700 RC:

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/nino-schurters-bike-scott-spark-700-rc-pro-2016-46917/

Henrique Avancini's 2017 Cannondale Scalpel:

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/henrique-avancinis-new-cannondale-cairns-xc-world-cup-2016.html


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I'm trying to figure out where I would use that kind of gearing. My AM bike is a 650b, 34T 11-42. I don't run out of gearing pretty much anywhere. Even the one fast, boring single track I do ride I could maybe push a 36 on, but by the time I spin out I am tucking out of the wind, I don't know if I would bother. And my slower friends with lower gearing run the same trail as fast as I do. My FSi is 32T XX1 and I haven't spun out yet because by the time I get going that fast, the trail is too rough that I am just trying to absorb the impacts. I would consider it on a CX bike though. I demo'ed a CX bike and the tight gearing of the Ultegra was annoying, I had to shift 3-4 times every time I needed to go up or down because one click was not enough. Though, I was riding MTB trails, not a CX course.

I rode a Scalpel Carbon 1 this weekend at a demo event. Just as smooth as my AM 130 bike, and could clear the same kind of air too.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

What's the thinking on 2.2" tires these days in the World Cup circuit? Looks like more riders are going with at least 2.1s instead of 2.0s and 1.9s of old. I seem to remember that Absalon is riding Race King 2.2s.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

chomxxo said:


> What's the thinking on 2.2" tires these days in the World Cup circuit? Looks like more riders are going with at least 2.1s instead of 2.0s and 1.9s of old. I seem to remember that Absalon is riding Race King 2.2s.


From BikeRadar: "For tyres, Fumic typically goes with Schwalbe Racing Ralphs in a 2.25in width, unless it's muddy, at which point the Rocket Ron may be put into use. Set up tubeless with sealant, his pressures typically range between 21 and 22psi - proving that riders at this level really can feel the difference in a half a psi."

2.2 size (and larger) tires provide more grip and cushioning for today's increasingly knarly World Cup XC courses and work well with the trend of wider rims. Plus the rolling resistance is quite low on the Conti Race Kings and Schwalbe Racing Ralphs.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

This prototype hardtail from Scott that Nino is playing around with looks nice! I'd like to see the 29er version. Nino's Prototype Bike - World Cup XCO 2, Germany - Pinkbike


----------



## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

Glad to see I'm not the only one with a zero-setback seatpost and the seat slammed forward:
Wild Cross-Country Tech - World Cup XCO 2, Germany - Pinkbike

Is this a weird setup, or are manufacturers off the mark with seat tube angles these days?


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

I believe it's more of the case of short riders trying to get their fit right on 29ers so they can take advantage of the fast rolling 29er wheels.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

spsoon said:


> Glad to see I'm not the only one with a zero-setback seatpost and the seat slammed forward:
> Wild Cross-Country Tech - World Cup XCO 2, Germany - Pinkbike
> 
> Is this a weird setup, or are manufacturers off the mark with seat tube angles these days?


It is more a case of WC courses being way steeper then what most people ride. WC XC bikes are set-up for steep climbs, a forward position really helps.


----------



## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

I love Batty's pint sized hardtail!


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

The only thing I don't like is the color of the fork...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Loch (Apr 29, 2011)

carlostruco said:


> The only thing I don't like is the color of the fork...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, it looks better on the ladies' blue bikes. It's even more horrendous on the men's red Treks. yuk.


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

They've stumbled onto the Gulf Porsche livery, they will likely get a copyright infringement notice.

Although Batty has a Porsche dealer as a sponsor, so maybe it was intentional.


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

csteven71 said:


> I love Batty's pint sized hardtail!
> 
> View attachment 1071513


Trek needs to build her some custom frames, this is looking goofy. I noticed earlier in the week she was actually using Maxxis tires, probably Beavers. She did the same thing earlier this year at a Canada Cup. I guess Bonti does not have a great mud tire? Beavers are exceptional in the mud, so I can't blame her.


----------



## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

rockyuphill said:


> They've stumbled onto the Gulf Porsche livery, they will likely get a copyright infringement notice.
> 
> Although Batty has a Porsche dealer as a sponsor, so maybe it was intentional.


first thing I thought too


----------



## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

Maybe she's a Richard Petty fan


----------



## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

Is that a 29er Emily is on? I thought she switched to 650b...


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Looks like too much bb drop to be a 650b?


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

PlanB said:


> Is that a 29er Emily is on? I thought she switched to 650b...


Last time I saw her bike it was 650b. I would be surprised if she switched back a 29er. Last year she was really happy with the switch.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Hey LMN, 

Why, if they have a choice, do WC racers ride with Shimano Di2? What kind of weight penalty does a XTR Di2/Fox iCD carry over a machanical bike? Does efficiency has a bigger upside than weight in a world ruled by grams? I asked this because we see to roadies who choose mechanical bikes over the electronic counterparts when the road pitches up, and due to the nature of WC XCO courses, weight has to play a pivotal factor at some point...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> Hey LMN,
> 
> Why, if they have a choice, do WC racers ride with Shimano Di2? What kind of weight penalty does a XTR Di2/Fox iCD carry over a machanical bike? Does efficiency has a bigger upside than weight in a world ruled by grams? I asked this because we see to roadies who choose mechanical bikes over the electronic counterparts when the road pitches up, and due to the nature of WC XCO courses, weight has to play a pivotal factor at some point...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know the exact weight difference but it is minimal. I think if you run Fox icd suspension (which is absolutely worth running) I think it comes out marginally lighter.
Even then the performance benefits are worth it, Di2 is sweet.

Really weight doesn't rule the XC world, performance does. Over the past 8 years the trend has been for bikes to perform better and get heavier.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

LMN said:


> I don't know the exact weight difference but it is minimal. I think if you run Fox icd suspension (which is absolutely worth running) I think it comes out marginally lighter.
> Even then the performance benefits are worth it, Di2 is sweet.
> 
> Really weight doesn't rule the XC world, performance does. Over the past 8 years the trend has been for bikes to perform better and get heavier.


Isn't Nino's FS bike supposed to be under 19lbs? I wonder whats the weight for his hardtail bike, it must not be far from the UCI road limit.


----------



## pk1 (Mar 25, 2010)

carlostruco said:


> Hey LMN,
> 
> Why, if they have a choice, do WC racers ride with Shimano Di2? What kind of weight penalty does a XTR Di2/Fox iCD carry over a machanical bike? Does efficiency has a bigger upside than weight in a world ruled by grams? I asked this because we see to roadies who choose mechanical bikes over the electronic counterparts when the road pitches up, and due to the nature of WC XCO courses, weight has to play a pivotal factor at some point...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


both road and mtb DA/XTR Di2 are generally slightly lighter than mechanical
the main reason a few road pros still prefer mech is due to a trust factor with regards to reliability. that would likely apply even more so in mtb except that the pro road scene is a lot more conservative than mtb


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Eagle is nice as is Di2 but I'm saving my money for mountain Etap


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

TDLover said:


> Isn't Nino's FS bike supposed to be under 19lbs? I wonder whats the weight for his hardtail bike, it must not be far from the UCI road limit.


Actually his dually is 21.5lbs (Nino Schurter's bike: Scott Spark 700 RC pro 2016 - BikeRadar)

Rider's height: 1.73m (5ft 8in)
Rider's weight: 68kg (150lb)
Saddle height from BB, c-t: 715mm
Saddle setback: 47mm
Seat tube length (c-t): 440mm
Head tube length: 110mm
Top tube length (effective): 598mm
Weight: 9.79kg (21.58lb)


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

By comparison my FS 29er (Jet 9 RDO) is 21.4lbs. It's reliable but I'd trade 200g more for precise wireless electronic shifting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

My BMC Fourstroke is 22.4 with SRAM XX1, Fox mechanical lock out and a painted frame, and I am no weight weenie. Absalon's Fourstroke is very close to this weight...

those guys get tricks that are way lighter, but if performance is more important, then I would also choose that...I can always drop some weight myself...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

LMN said:


> Actually his dually is 21.5lbs (Nino Schurter's bike: Scott Spark 700 RC pro 2016 - BikeRadar)
> 
> Rider's height: 1.73m (5ft 8in)
> Rider's weight: 68kg (150lb)
> ...


That's interesting, late year bike was quoted at 20.7lb by redbull website.

I wonder what changed, Eagle?

Nino Schurter bike check

At the two guys who posted their bike weights, you just made me feel bad.

At 132lb my FS 26er Santa Cruz weights 25lb, talk about riding at a disadvantage


----------



## NoahColorado (Aug 3, 2004)

How wide are Nino and Absalon's handlebars? They looked quite wide in the race...


----------



## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

Looks like Nino is testing a new Scott XC bike:
Spotted: Nino Schurter's Prototype Scott - XCO World Cup Round 3, 2016 - Pinkbike

I don't imagine he'll race on it, but it's still intriguing: new suspension design, 29" wheels, no mess of cables coming off the bars... at least on this early version.

Correction: the TwinLoc can be seen in the pics.


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

PlanB said:


> Looks like Nino is testing a new Scott XC bike:
> Spotted: Nino Schurter's Prototype Scott - XCO World Cup Round 3, 2016 - Pinkbike
> 
> I don't imagine he'll race on it, but it's still intriguing: new suspension design, 29" wheels


I'm thinking, good move Nino. At least he has an open mind. Stammer stem, looks like -30 degrees.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

So much for that 27.5 trend 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I'd like to see a Ritchey WCS stem that competes with the Syntace FlatForce. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Jolanda Neff just kicked tail in France on her 29er hardtail (with no dropper post).


----------



## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

Stonerider said:


> Jolanda Neff just kicked tail in France on her 29er hardtail (with no dropper post).


And a double! Batty rode a hardtail as well, using an XT 11-42 cassette and a 30t wolftooth ring (it appears).


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Catharine was on her 27.5 dually, 30T shimano ring, with 11-40 XTR cassette.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

That Neff crash was amazing!!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Nino + 29er = not fun

Amazing race on the mens side. Looks like France was not going to be denied!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> Nino + 29er = not fun
> 
> Amazing race on the mens side. Looks like France was not going to be denied!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He definitely looked off. Not just the flat tires, he didn't look nearly as smooth as he usually does on the descents. It will be interesting to see if he stays on the 29er.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I wonder what was the rear wheel and tire they user on his first flat. On the later stages of the race, I saw him again with his usual combination of DT Swiss/Dugast...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Having used the FS at his disposal on Cairns, why in the world Tempier used his hardtail on this course? 

Top 3 riders on the men's race use Shimano. 

I wonder the front tire choice for JA. Race King or X-King?

Is anybody using the new Shimano Boa shoes? 

Abasalon changed glasses...twice during the race!!!

Neff doesn't need a dropper...

What would be the weight on Nino's new bike? Pictures saw him with a 36t ring instead of the 38t he was using in the 27.5...

Flats came easily...pinch? From the size of the rocks, that's my guess...

And this one is just me...can someone tell Nino to use longer socks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> Having used the FS at his disposal on Cairns, why in the world Tempier used his hardtail on this course?
> 
> Top 3 riders on the men's race use Shimano.
> 
> ...


Neff is going to hurt herself. She was completely out of control on that descent. You could see that crash coming from a mile away.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> Neff is going to hurt herself. She was completely out of control on that descent. You could see that crash coming from a mile away.


One of the Fluckinger brothers is similar. Just rattles down the track.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LMN said:


> Neff is going to hurt herself. She was completely out of control on that descent. You could see that crash coming from a mile away.


True...she was lucky she landed on a "soft" spot.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bikingmat (Jun 4, 2011)

Would love to know the tire choice for absalon also.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

There is pic of JA on the UCI Facebook page were he's standing with the bike and his tire came off the rim. It looks like it was in the practice runs...front tire was Conti X-King...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

That 90 degree rear axle quick release that Focus is using is a slick system. Sort of a Dzus fastener for an axle.

That should be retro-fittable to any 12mm x 142 rear end by swapping the captive nut in the frame.

Focus - Bikes: R.A.T. / Rapid Axle Technology


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Does anyone know what size of ring did Kulhavy used?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

I know Julien was riding a full-suspension with dropper but weren't the 2nd and 3rd place finishers in the mens race on 29er hardtails without dropper posts?


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Yes...two very strong technical riders who might benefit from a FS in a course like this!!!

But MaxMarro is just plain going super strong this season!!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

But Julien was also putting time on them in the decent's. Ive heard Absalon reffered to as " the Michael Shumacher of MTB" in the wet. He looked very good on the slippery stuff.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

machine4321 said:


> But Julien was also putting time on them in the decent's. Ive heard Absalon reffered to as " the Michael Shumacher of MTB" in the wet. He looked very good on the slippery stuff.


But what about that off camber wet rooty section a few xc's ago that only Nino could ride the high line?


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

bikingmat said:


> Would love to know the tire choice for absalon also.


Based on photos, Race King on back, X-King on front.


----------



## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Nino has tge best tech skills of the bunch. I never said Absalon was bettee then nino. I was refering to the comment about the bh guys on hardtails. They were fast but were not as fast on the downs as Absalon


----------



## Carioca_XC (Dec 30, 2014)

csteven71 said:


> And a double! Batty rode a hardtail as well, using an XT 11-42 cassette and a 30t wolftooth ring (it appears).


Is Batty still riding a 27.5?


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

A Spanish mountain bike website has posted an article detailing Nino's punctures and replacements...

His first flat happened to be near the finish line tech zone, in which his team did not have tubs ready. All the had was DT Swiss XRC 1200 with Ritchey tires. His second flat happened near the first tech zone in which the team had tubs ready. That's why we saw him in his original set up at the end of the race.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

primoz said:


> Based on photos, Race King on back, X-King on front.


Yep.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Interesting twitter on gear selection.

Léandre Bouchard ‏@LeandreBouchard 15h15 hours ago
Cannot believe that I finished 20th on a #UCIMTBWC and still need a 30t ring with a #sram #xx1 setup! Do I lose fitness or what? #velocity


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

Suisse Ride mag just published an interview with Schurter. Can be found on YouTube but it is in German. Suisse German. Seems to be from today.

Full commitment to 29er FS and its advantages.


----------



## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

From the pictures on pinkbike it looks like Batty chose non sponsor correct Maxxis Ikons over the Bonty XR1s.


----------



## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

quax said:


> Suisse Ride mag just published an interview with Schurter. Can be found on YouTube but it is in German. Suisse German. Seems to be from today.
> 
> Full commitment to 29er FS and its advantages.


😱

Didn't he used to go on and on about how he couldn't get the right bike fit with 29?


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

alphajaguars said:


> 😱
> 
> Didn't he used to go on and on about how he couldn't get the right bike fit with 29?


FWIW, the Scale and Spark 900s have a 105mm HT.

The Trek Top Fuel, Yeti ASRc, and some other, newer bikes have 90mm HTs.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

alphajaguars said:


> 😱
> 
> Didn't he used to go on and on about how he couldn't get the right bike fit with 29?


And now they've made a bike that IS right for him.

Wonder if they'll do the same for me if I ask nicely?


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

csteven71 said:


> From the pictures on pinkbike it looks like Batty chose non sponsor correct Maxxis Ikons over the Bonty XR1s.


She has ran Maxxis tires a couple times this year already.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

NordieBoy said:


> And now they've made a bike that IS right for him.
> 
> Wonder if they'll do the same for me if I ask nicely?


Well I sure hope they come out with a new Scale 29er to go with the new Spark 29er. I find it interesting that one week he debuts a new Scale 27.5 and the next week a new Spark 29er. I would think if they were trying to get his fit right on a 29er they'd have a new Scale 29er for him so he can use the 29er wheels all the time. It would be much easier on his team. They clearly weren't prepared Sunday with enough 29er tires glued on for him.


----------



## Carioca_XC (Dec 30, 2014)

I wonder what Scott is up to next year. 
Apparently, both the Scale and the Spark are getting new frames. 
As to wheel sizes, Scott is possibly the only major manufacturer to offer all XC bike models in both 29" and 27.5" sizes.
I wonder if they are following the trend to build small frames in the 27.5" size and all the other frame sizes exclusively 29ers. 
This is the approach Trek and Cannondale are taking, for instance.
It would make some sense, as Trek made Emily Batty switch to 27.5" and Nino uses a medium frame...


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Whatever Scott is doing with Nino might not affect production bikes. He has "custom" geometry on his frames. Head angle is more aggressive. And this is just my opinion, but his new FS 29er is just plain ugly!!! 

I think the only FS bikes that I like how it looks with a "seat tube shock" are the Fourstroke and a Turner Zcar. The current Scale looks good, as well as the Scalpel and the Epic. Top Fuel? Not so much. I considered the Superfly a prettier bike. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Nino's new 29er seems like a rebranded Kona Hei Hei, did anyone notice that?


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

With suspension design like Giant Stance.... guess it still bob if not lockout like the old one.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Interesting, in the Merida vid, Jose Hermida was saying he was going to run an Aspen rear and Igniter front or Beavers for La Bresse.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)




----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

pro bikes:

Das Beste vom Besten: 6 World Cup-Bikes der XC-Herren im Kurzcheck - MTB-News.de


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

and the ladies

Das Beste vom Besten: 6 World Cup-Bikes der XC-Damen im Kurzcheck - MTB-News.de


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Wow!!! Unbranded carbon rims for Absalon, interesting cockpit set up for Pendrel, MCFK rims for Milatz...


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

carlostruco said:


> interesting cockpit set up for Pendrel


I think she had broken thumb on her right hand this spring.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

kevbikemad said:


> I think she had broken thumb on her right hand this spring.


That thumb has been a challenge and still is a challenge.


----------



## OLx6 (Feb 5, 2011)

I remember reading comments from LMN previously stating that Absalon & Schurter experience far too many flats during races. I tend to agree with this statement. It seems like almost every race one of them flats. 

Schurter running Dugast tubulars, flats seem like a real risk each race. Absalon however runs Continental Protection tires. I don't understand how he can flat these so often (I have seen on film that they have "Protection" written on them). Are they a special thinner/lighter version?


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Sometimes he runs the standard casing.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OLx6 said:


> I remember reading comments from LMN previously stating that Absalon & Schurter experience far too many flats during races. I tend to agree with this statement. It seems like almost every race one of them flats.


It also seems like one of them *wins* every race. It's hard to argue with results.


----------



## bopApocalypse (Aug 27, 2005)

OLx6 said:


> Absalon however runs Continental Protection tires. I don't understand how he can flat these so often (I have seen on film that they have "Protection" written on them). Are they a special thinner/lighter version?


As someone currently on tires #3 and #4 since March (all Race King ProTection 29x2.2 purchased retail), I can only offer that the ProTection casing isn't exactly invincible. I'd argue that both my failures were more user error than anything else, but I'd expect that Absalon's skill level is _slightly_ higher than mine, and I believe that the roughest parts of the current WC courses are a bit rougher than the worst stuff I ride (and a lot rougher than _most_ of what I ride).

#1 was a poorly executed bunnyhop, slamming the back tire into a sharp square edge at ~20mph. Small hole in the tread, roughly 1/4" cut right above and parallel to the bead - in other words, a pinch flat, just the tire itself instead of a tube.

#2 wasn't actually a flat, but the casing failed in some way after getting tangled up during a race start and going down hard. Spinning the wheel made it look like the wheel was way out of true, but it was all in the tire.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

bopApocalypse said:


> As someone currently on tires #3 and #4 since March (all Race King ProTection 29x2.2 purchased retail), I can only offer that the ProTection casing isn't exactly invincible.


With these light tires (ok Race King Protection, I run on back wheel is not really all that light), I would say it's a lot about luck. This year, I'm still on first set, but last year I destroyed 5 or 6 tires in less then month... and then I learned how to fix them  Most of punctures I had, were on terrain where I really wondered how the hell I could puncture tube (if I would run it) and certainly not tire. After that weird month, I was riding with same set till end of season, and on much worse terrain.
So in my case it's pretty much bad luck. Only thing that's certain is, that with my heavy weight (75kg) Schwalbe's Thunder Burt is out of question. No matter what I tried, it didn't last for a week... even on nice flat single trails with no roots and/or gravel, and even less rocks.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I have had my issues with Race Kings also. IMO, it is fragile on the bead. To many pinch flats compared to other tires I have owned. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bopApocalypse (Aug 27, 2005)

Looks like Scott did their official reveal on the new bikes @ Press Camp:
Scott launches new, light Spark and Scale: first look - BikeRadar

The separate alloy brake mount is interesting.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

So...the boys from BH/Suntour seem to have a new bike...FS...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

carlostruco said:


> So...the boys from BH/Suntour seem to have a new bike...FS...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Truth be told, I'm more interested in the prototype tires they are running.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Hmmm...new shoes for Nino and Absalon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

In the mens race it is interesting to compare how well the bike work for the top 3. They all are on different suspension:
Nino: DT 
Kulhavy: Rockshox
Absalon: Fox.

Visually it looks like Nino's bike is working the best. He seems to be able to just stand and rest on the descents and let the bike do the work. The other guys are having to work the bike a lot more on the descents.

It would be really interesting to see what percent sag they are running. I suspect that Nino is running a bit softer set-up.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

On a course like this suspension set up looks to be crucial...

Nino does look smoother than the rest...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> In the mens race it is interesting to compare how well the bike work for the top 3. They all are on different suspension:
> Nino: DT
> Kulhavy: Rockshox
> Absalon: Fox.
> ...


I'm not going to pretend that I have the same suspension as Nino, but I've been very impressed with my DT Swiss OPM ODL. Supportive over large drops, as it keeps you from being pitched forward, but still soft enough for the smaller stuff, too.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

On a personal note, I don't like the new Oakley glasses the guys are using...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

LMN said:


> In the mens race it is interesting to compare how well the bike work for the top 3. They all are on different suspension:
> Nino: DT
> Kulhavy: Rockshox
> Absalon: Fox.
> ...


A slacker head-angle really helps as well. The Spark looks to eat stuff more like a trail bike and get the fork work better while descending.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

plupp said:


> A slacker head-angle really helps as well. The Spark looks to eat stuff more like a trail bike and get the fork work better while descending.


I was going to disagree with you about head-angle but I thought about my own set-up. On my hardtail, which has a 70.5 head angle and a fairly long stem, I run fork really stiff (10% sag) to make the bike work on steep descents. On my other bikes which have slacker angles I am able to run a bit more sag.


----------



## earworm (Nov 8, 2014)

Hello, I haven't seen the race yet. Was Nino on his normal 27.5" or the new 29" for nove mesto today?


----------



## Ranger Pride (Jan 21, 2005)

earworm said:


> Hello, I haven't seen the race yet. Was Nino on his normal 27.5" or the new 29" for nove mesto today?


Here was rolling the new 29er FS


----------



## puredelusion (Dec 24, 2014)

LMN said:


> Nino: DT


Can anyone tell me what exactly model he is racing on?

It was a bit funny to see a lot of riders in the 'peloton' on the same new, orange Fox'es. Interesting visual effect.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

puredelusion said:


> Can anyone tell me what exactly model he is racing on?
> 
> It was a bit funny to see a lot of riders in the 'peloton' on the same new, orange Fox'es. Interesting visual effect.


https://www.dtswiss.com/Suspension/Forks/OPM-O-D-L-100-Race

With remote.

https://www.dtswiss.com/Accessories/Remote-lever-suspension


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Is Sabine Spitz on a no brand carbon bike frame? She is still at a very high level. Crazy she's not with a major brand.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

kevbikemad said:


> Is Sabine Spitz on a no brand carbon bike frame? She is still at a very high level. Crazy she's not with a major brand.


That also caught my attention, her frame was all covered with her name.

I wonder the reason for that, shame that she had that flat so far behind pits.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Pardon my ignorance, but does Suntour have a good rear shock?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

TDLover said:


> That also caught my attention, her frame was all covered with her name.
> 
> I wonder the reason for that, shame that she had that flat so far behind pits.


It's still a Haibike frame.

She did not find a main sponsor this year. No money, no logo on the frame.

Lot's of money has been diverted into Enduro and Ebike marketing. Then she's not considered a good brand ambassadeur because she's already ridden for so many different brands. And, sadly, potential sponsors said she's too old.

This Pretty much summarises it.

Source: German newspaper, Interview with her husband who is her manager


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

quax said:


> It's still a Haibike frame.
> 
> She did not find a main sponsor this year. No money, no logo on the frame.
> 
> ...


But some faceless, nameless 20-something that wears a flat brim hat, and finishes 25% down on the leader at every EWS race is?

Terrible.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Anyone know what tires all the Specialized podium finishers were running at the WC XCO Championships? It looked like Kulhavy was running Fast Traks but I didn't see what Sam Gaze (U23 Champion) and Annika (Women's Champion) were running.


----------



## TwincamRob (Sep 20, 2014)

Stonerider said:


> Anyone know what tires all the Specialized podium finishers were running at the WC XCO Championships? It looked like Kulhavy was running Fast Traks but I didn't see what Sam Gaze (U23 Champion) and Annika (Women's Champion) were running.


http://http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/07/02/xc-pro-bike-check-new-mens-u23-world-champion-sam-gazes-specialized-s-works-epic/

http://http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/07/03/xc-pro-bike-check-new-womens-elite-world-champion-annika-langvads-specialized-s-works-era/


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

TwincamRob said:


> http://http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/07/02/xc-pro-bike-check-new-mens-u23-world-champion-sam-gazes-specialized-s-works-epic/
> 
> http://http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/07/03/xc-pro-bike-check-new-womens-elite-world-champion-annika-langvads-specialized-s-works-era/


So Gaze was running some special Renegade's at 2.1 size front/rear and Annika was running Fast Track front/Renegade rear. Sam Gaze has to have some skills to run the Renegade on the front.


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Stonerider said:


> Sam Gaze has to have some skills to run the Renegade on the front.


That course does not have a lot of turning really, so a minitread design is probably fine. But the top guys all have the skills. I'm more impressed the Kulhavy can descend on that circus setup.

The Maxxis Aspens Schurter was running don't have any more tread than Renegades.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I could be wrong, but those do not look like the Renegades we have seen the past few years. Thread and knobs look different and taller...plus, 2.1 is no a size Spesh has "on stock". 

But the Renegade has very good grip. I had that tire a couple years ago, and it was super fast and very predictable. In fact, I would go back to it for certain trails I ride if only our local distributor decided to listen to suggestions. But let me be specific, I am talking about the Renegade 2.3, not the 1.95 that comes stock on Specialized bikes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## markus_krk (Jul 27, 2013)

carlostruco said:


> I could be wrong, but those do not look like the Renegades we have seen the past few years. Thread and knobs look different and taller...plus, 2.1 is no a size Spesh has "on stock".


This clearly is a redesigned version, not available to the public yet.
Also the Fast Trak on Langvand's bike seems to have slightly different thread pattern.

Any idea when Spesh is gonna release those new tires?


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

kevbikemad said:


> That course does not have a lot of turning really, so a minitread design is probably fine. But the top guys all have the skills. I'm more impressed the Kulhavy can descend on that circus setup.
> 
> The Maxxis Aspens Schurter was running don't have any more tread than Renegades.


I agree, front tire grip was not a huge factor on that course. Plus in those conditions minimalist tread grip really well.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Specialized is known to provide their riders stuff that is not available to us for a while...

I like that Renegade though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

Any more insights on Schurter's tires? In some pictures I believe to see an Ikon but I could be wrong.

Would be really interesting to know. Over here many people refuse to ride Ikons because all the MTB mags' tests on steel drums say its rolling resistance is so high.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Ikons are fast, light and predictable. But it looks like he rode in Aspen's, which I have never ever ridden. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

quax said:


> Any more insights on Schurter's tires? In some pictures I believe to see an Ikon but I could be wrong.
> 
> Would be really interesting to know. Over here many people refuse to ride Ikons because all the MTB mags' tests on steel drums say its rolling resistance is so high.


Those steel drums test are absolutely meaningless. Catharine has 30 world cup podiums, 9 world cup wins and one world championship on Ikons. If they were if fact as slow slow as those test indicate, then the only stopping Catharine from having 30+ world cup win is tires.

They grip, have reasonable size, roll reasonably well, and most importantly are durable. But if you do a lot of pavement riding then you would probably find them slow.


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

No need to convince me  

(though others could say that she could have ridden even better? It's the internet ....)

It would be nice to have some test setup that allows to study real world rolling resistence and put it into context with these "standard tests".

I don't think these were Aspens. Had a look a fairly good close up and the tires on Schurter's bike looks different. Though I could be wrong, of course.


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

I stand corrected, it is an Aspen


----------



## bholwell (Oct 17, 2007)

quax said:


> I stand corrected, it is an Aspen


What's strange is that the tires have the prototype hotpatch on the sidewall, and the Aspen was developed some 7 years ago. Maybe they were on-offs...?


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

quax said:


> No need to convince me
> 
> (though others could say that she could have ridden even better? It's the internet ....)
> 
> ...


I agree.

Both of us are involved high enough in the sport to know how little research is actually done.

I suspect that the XC race tire is will change quite a bit in the next couple of year. The changing courses and increasing capabilities of XC bikes is going to require a change in tires.


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

I should have posted the source of the picture:

XC Pro Bike Check: repeat elite men's World Champion Nino Schurter on new Scott Spark RC 900 WC - Bikerumor

There they speak of "a pre-production set of Maxxis Aspen tubeless tires in a 29″ x 2.1″ casing"


----------



## OLx6 (Feb 5, 2011)

As we speak of tires, I have always thought that Maxxis could make a top notch tire by simply modernizing the Ignitor. Take this tire and make it a true 2.2" width, around 650 grams for a 29er TR, and some decent volume and this would be a winner. The tire has good rolling resistance and IMHO covers a wide range of conditions. Sometimes improvements can be better than completely new.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

OLx6 said:


> As we speak of tires, I have always thought that Maxxis could make a top notch tire by simply modernizing the Ignitor.  Take this tire and make it a true 2.2" width, around 650 grams for a 29er TR, and some decent volume and this would be a winner. The tire has good rolling resistance and IMHO covers a wide range of conditions. Sometimes improvements can be better than completely new.


I agree, with a bit more width the Ignitor would be a sweet all around tire.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I feel more comfortable on Renegade's on my 26'er than Fasttrak's on my 29'er.
But i don't hang it out in the corners at all.


----------



## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Just a comparison between nino's aspen and the one i have that has been sitting in the tire pile for years


















Tread pattern looks the same to me


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

The rim looks like a 24mm id hookless carbon Dt XMC 1200.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Honestly that Aspen does looks identical to the one Nino was using. Perhaps he tried it, like it and decided to run on them. In other words, it doesn't seem to be new in any sense, maybe casing has been updated, but it will be hard to know.


----------



## Loch (Apr 29, 2011)

It's probably just the new "Tubeless Ready" 29x2.1 Aspen.


----------



## Walt Disney's Frozen Head (Jan 9, 2008)

I remember liking this tire way back when but the sidewalls were stupid thin for use out here (CO).


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Second straight race Nino races without tubulars...last year he flatted on this course also...hhmmm...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

the commentators talked about the tires, apparently they are prototypes with 170 tpi casings that they are trying out before the olympics to get a lower rolling resistance than the tubulars he has been running previously.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Skier78 said:


> the commentators talked about the tires, apparently they are prototypes with 170 tpi casings that they are trying out before the olympics to get a lower rolling resistance than the tubulars he has been running previously.


I'd say his tire experiment has been a success! Two races and two wins.


----------



## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

Stonerider said:


> I'd say his tire experiment has been a success! Two races and two wins.


And no flats.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Stonerider said:


> I'd say his tire experiment has been a success! Two races and two wins.


It's not the first time he's won 2 in a row, he's done it many times using tubulars without flatting either.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> It's not the first time he's won 2 in a row, he's done it many times using tubulars without flatting either.


29er tubulars?? The only time I saw him use the 29er tubulars earlier in the year on his camouflaged Spark he had a flat.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Stonerider said:


> 29er tubulars??


I didn't think wheel size was relevant.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I see stores with old stock of forgotten Aspens covered in spiderwebs suddenly grabbed away.

I think Maxxis has way to many tires on offer.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Goran_injo said:


> I see stores with old stock of forgotten Aspens covered in spiderwebs suddenly grabbed away.
> 
> I think Maxxis has way to many tires on offer.


I agree that Maxxis has way too many tires on offer. It's hard to see how it could be cost effective from a manufacturing and inventory point of view.

But I doubt that any of us mortals could make the Aspen hook up as well in the turns as Nino. Although it did look like Kulhavy was running the minimal tread Renegade and of course Absalon is running the speedy Race King. All of those are fast rolling tires with limited grip.


----------



## clydeone (Aug 9, 2009)

carlostruco said:


> The Scalpel looks good...
> 
> And that Fox Orange Crush is very light!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


"The trick, and oh, what a trick it is, is to remain consciously blind to the danger that surrounds you, and simultaneously hyper-aware of every hard bit of pavement or sharp bit of metal that enters your air space. This is the Zen koan of riding your bicycle on the road." Robot, Red Kite Prayer - rkp.com - October 20, 2011


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There are some pictures of the new Sidi Tiger MTB shoes that Nino Schurter and Julien Absalon have been wearing here:










https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/07/05/sneak-peek-new-sidi-tiger-mountain-shot-road-shoes-way/

They have the boa dials located centrally on the tongue of the shoe, rather than on the side. It might be ok but I wouldn't be surprised if they're not actually that comfortable to wear. All the clamping pressure is going to be going down directly through the top of your foot and the tongue is going to have to be reinforced hard plastic. That's the part of the shoe you want to be secure, but soft.

There are some pictures of the new Shimano XC7 shoe here too:

https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/07/1...-road-shoes-plus-new-footwear-for-winter-tri/

They look a lot like a Specialized S-Works mtb shoe at first glance, only missing one boa dial.


----------



## nunokas (Aug 12, 2014)

Those sidi are very nice but pearl izumi has been doing that for over a year


----------



## dekaru (May 12, 2007)

eb1888 said:


> The rim looks like a 24mm id hookless carbon Dt XMC 1200.


Does anyone know why would Nino run the XMC 1200 instead of the seemingly more obvious choice XRC 1200 ? Weight gains are rather minimal (70 gr), would it be because of the inner width (21.5mm vs 24mm)?


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

The XRC still have bead hooks and the XMC are hookless beads, so likely as much to limit pinch flats.



dekaru said:


> Does anyone know why would Nino run the XMC 1200 instead of the seemingly more obvious choice XRC 1200 ? Weight gains are rather minimal (70 gr), would it be because of the inner width (21.5mm vs 24mm)?


----------



## dekaru (May 12, 2007)

rockyuphill said:


> The XRC still have bead hooks and the XMC are hookless beads, so likely as much to limit pinch flats.


So I take it he won't be running tubulars for the XCO in Rio?


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

dekaru said:


> Does anyone know why would Nino run the XMC 1200 instead of the seemingly more obvious choice XRC 1200 ? Weight gains are rather minimal (70 gr), would it be because of the inner width (21.5mm vs 24mm)?


The wider rims provide better support for the sidewalls of the tires and you can run lower pressures than with the narrow rims. Also the hookless beads are more durable and withstand more abuse.


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

dekaru said:


> Does anyone know why would Nino run the XMC 1200 instead of the seemingly more obvious choice XRC 1200 ? Weight gains are rather minimal (70 gr), would it be because of the inner width (21.5mm vs 24mm)?


More sidewall support and lower pressure gives him more traction and more manageable traction loss when it occurs instead of an abrupt washout from a foldover. 30mm inner width with 2.2 round profile tires like the Bonty XR1 Teams would provide more except for his sponsorships. There could be more times he could go Scale.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

eb1888 said:


> 30mm inner width with 2.2 round profile tires like the Bonty XR1 Teams would provide more except for his sponsorships.


Because shoddy wheels and tires are causing front wheel washouts that prevent him from winning nearly every event he enters?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Nino Schurter's Scott Spark colour scheme for his Olympic race bike:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/07/22...t-fully-wrapped-rocky-mountain-rieseldesigns/

.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

WR304 said:


> Nino Schurter's Scott Spark colour scheme for his Olympic race bike:
> 
> Eye Candy! Rio Olympic paint schemes from Scott; fully wrapped Rocky Mountain from rie:sel designs - Bikerumor
> 
> .


I found those some ugly color combinations, but if he gets 1st place I'm sure that might change.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WR304 said:


> Nino Schurter's Scott Spark colour scheme for his Olympic race bike:












like^


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> Because shoddy wheels and tires are causing front wheel washouts that prevent him from winning nearly every event he enters?


Last year on the last lap at the bottom of the downhill section at Albstadt he washed out in a gravelly corner and lost to Absalom.
I'm sure you'll agree he wants to avoid that.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

eb1888 said:


> Last year on the last lap at the bottom of the downhill section at Albstadt he washed out in a gravelly corner and lost to Absalom.
> I'm sure you'll agree he wants to avoid that.


I'd bet Nino would be the first to admit that failure wasn't equipment related. World class downhill specialists suffer front wheel washouts from time to time, should they use Bontrager tires and 30mm rims?

I could be wrong of course, maybe Schurter would win *every* race if only he would listen to us pros on mtbr!


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

It was equipment related if he would have made the curve on different equipment. He would have had more traction on wider stuff like he's riding now even. So it looks like he's made a change.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

eb1888 said:


> It was equipment related if he would have made the curve on different equipment. He would have had more traction on wider stuff like he's riding now even. So it looks like he's made a change.


Yes, Nino finally is on the 29er and the wider rim/tire bandwagon. 24ID rims for XC racing seem about perfect because if you get much wider you pay a huge weight penalty which will hurt you on the climbs and when getting back up to speed coming out of the turns.

Hopefully he gets his Olympic Gold Medal this year. If not, he'll be beaten by another rider on a 29er with a tubeless tire/wheel set-up, that's for sure.


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

as pointed out by Schurter himself in a recent video interview with a Suisse bike mag his various equipment changes were motivated by some rather bad experiences last season (in particular one crash that could have been prevented with larger wheels) and early this year. As courses get more technical he sees a benefit for larger wheels on short travel bikes. 

Furthermore, he is in a position where he can tell sponsors what he wants, not the other way round (my interpretation)


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Stonerider said:


> 24ID rims for XC racing seem about perfect because if you get much wider you pay a huge weight penalty which will hurt you on the climbs and when getting back up to speed coming out of the turns.


30mm id rims aren't much heavier as the Kovee XXX wheelset from Trek shows you at 29 id and 1390g in Boost 29. 640g Kovee 15x110 if you just use a Boost fork like a new SID.
Dt XMC 1200 Spline 24id is 1495g for a set.
Actually that wider wheelset looks lighter.
Tire choice may change total weights. But presumably your cornering traction gains and climbing traction gains could still put you ahead overall.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

TDLover said:


> I found those some ugly color combinations, but if he gets 1st place I'm sure that might change.


I somebody ever see's me in a bike with that color schemes, please, shoot me right there!!!

Don't get me wrong, I like bright colors, but that looks like a parrot pissing a rainbow..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dokker (Sep 25, 2013)

Does anyone know which size of Epic or Stumpjumper Simon Andreassen is using?


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

dokker said:


> Does anyone know which size of Epic or Stumpjumper Simon Andreassen is using?


Nope...but looks like he's racing a hardtail in Rio.

I so wish someone riding a hardtail would win the Gold! But the Gold will probably go to #whateverNinorides


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Specialized have announced the colour scheme for their Olympic bikes.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/specialized-unveils-olympic-torch-paint-scheme/

It's going to be a heat sensitive paint that changes with temperature. There's a video in the cyclingnews link showing it in action.

They only mention Peter Sagan for the mountain bikes but I'd guess it's fair to assume that any other Specialized sponsored athletes will have it too.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Stonerider said:


> I so wish someone riding a hardtail would win the Gold! But the Gold will probably go to #whateverNinorides


Ha ha, I had some friends question me when I said "No, Sagan is not going to beat Nino."

"But Sagan is fast, and in great shape..."


----------



## NoahColorado (Aug 3, 2004)




----------



## iheartoregon (Apr 23, 2013)

I wonder why it isn't an "S-Works?"


----------



## sandyf (Sep 3, 2012)

iheartoregon said:


> I wonder why it isn't an "S-Works?"


It's because the Olympics are a chance to reach a huge international audience unfamiliar with the Specialized brand, who wouldn't necessarily know what "S-Works" is.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Reminds me of the Hypercolor t-shirts of the 90's.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Absalon on Enve for Olympics?

http://enve.com/journal/2016-enve-olympic-athletes-to-watch-for/

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Absalon on Enve for Olympics?
> 
> ENVE Athletes to Watch For at the Rio Olympics - ENVE Composites


M50 (21id) or M60 (23id)? If he's trying to match the width of Nino's new wheels he'll go with the M60.


----------



## Eric Marshall (Nov 28, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Absalon on Enve for Olympics?
> 
> ENVE Athletes to Watch For at the Rio Olympics - ENVE Composites


Interesting. We'll have to wait and see. He certainly did *not *ride Enve wheels at the recent Hadleigh Farm race.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

WR304 said:


> Specialized have announced the colour scheme for their Olympic bikes.
> 
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/specialized-unveils-olympic-torch-paint-scheme/
> 
> ...












I was looking at this picture of the Italian road team for Rio 2016, three of whom have the heat sensitive paint on their frames and bike helmets.

Only the rider on the far left (Fabio Aru) has a bike and helmet that's turned yellow from the heat. The other two have orange bikes and helmets still. It makes me wonder whether they had been sat around in a coffee shop and only turned out for this picture, before going back to the coffee shop again.:lol:


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Eric Marshall said:


> Interesting. We'll have to wait and see. He certainly did *not *ride Enve wheels at the recent Hadleigh Farm race.


Preride at MSA was not on ENVE either.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Peter Sagan's Rio 2016 Specialized Epic:










The white fork doesn't fit the colour scheme that well. This is about the only time that one of those bright orange Fox Stepcast forks would look to be a match on a bike!


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Not an S-Works?!?!?!?!!!?!!!?!!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

carlostruco said:


> Not an S-Works?!?!?!?!!!?!!!?!!?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For a global audience, "Specialized" has more meaning than "S-Works".

All XC, road and track bikes carry that label for the Olympics.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Looks like Catharine Pendrel won at Mount Saint Anne with the Maxxis Pace tires. Speedy!


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Stonerider said:


> Looks like Catharine Pendrel won at Mount Saint Anne with the Maxxis Pace tires. Speedy!


The Pace are a surprisingly good tire. They really grip on rocks and roots. Of course the 18psi she ran front and rear helps a lot. #dentedrims

Speaking of tires I saw Frishi with a lot of Maxxis guys. The grapevine is the Swiss spent $200,000 Euro to find the Maxxis Aspen is the best XC tire made.


----------



## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

Because of the conditions, tire selection at MSA seemed so interesting. A pic on PinkBike shows Batty was on sharpied-out Maxxis, anyone know what tread/size? 

Annika's confidence fell apart once the rain hit. Was she on Renegedes, or were they Fast Tracks that jammed with mud? 

With the resurgence of the Aspen, and the Pace gaining favor, are we seeing a conscious shift back to more narrow tires, or would they all prefer those tires in 2.25s if they were available? I'm intrigued by LMN's description of the Pace but I don't think I want to go back to a 2.1.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

The Maxxis website doesn't list the 29er Aspen as being tubeless ready (TR)...if you click on the BUY button it will list the Aspens in various configurations for sale. That is a non starter for me. One thing I've loved about the TR versions of Maxxis tires I have used in the past is that they mount up and seal so easily tubeless.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Stonerider said:


> The Maxxis website doesn't list the 29er Aspen as being tubeless ready (TR)...if you click on the BUY button it will list the Aspens in various configurations for sale. That is a non starter for me. One thing I've loved about the TR versions of Maxxis tires I have used in the past is that they mount up and seal so easily tubeless.


People are racing tire types and tire sizes that are not available yet. Catharine raced a 2.1 pace but the aspens that people are itching to ride are in the 2.25 range


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

euro-trash said:


> Annika's confidence fell apart once the rain hit. Was she on Renegedes, or were they Fast Tracks that jammed with mud?


I saw a picture of Annika on PinkBike and it looked like the front tire was a Fast Trak. I couldn't tell what the rear was.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Stonerider said:


> The Maxxis website doesn't list the 29er Aspen as being tubeless ready (TR)...if you click on the BUY button it will list the Aspens in various configurations for sale. That is a non starter for me. One thing I've loved about the TR versions of Maxxis tires I have used in the past is that they mount up and seal so easily tubeless.





Stonerider said:


> I saw a picture of Annika on PinkBike and it looked like the front tire was a Fast Trak. I couldn't tell what the rear was.


According to her she went into the red trying too close on Catharine 2nd lap and never fully recovered.


----------



## AztecRider (Oct 31, 2008)

I was there and took some pics.

Can you tell from those what tires she had? I am not a Specialized guy.


----------



## AztecRider (Oct 31, 2008)

I was there and took some pics.

Can you tell from those what tires she had? I am not a Specialized guy.

View attachment 1087135

View attachment 1087136


----------



## KonaSS (Sep 29, 2004)

Yes, front is a Fastrak, rear looks like a Renegade.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Some articles about equipment that I thought were quite interesting: 

Rule 40 at the Olympics and its restrictions.

Why Olympic Rule 40 is stupid - BikeRadar

Interview with Jeremiah Bishop discussing equipment choices for the Leadville 100 race.

Interview: Jeremiah Bishop says dropper posts make roadies faster & how he'll cheat (the wind) at Leadville - Bikerumor

.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

KonaSS said:


> Yes, front is a Fastrak, rear looks like a Renegade.


She's running the updated Specialized Fast Trak and Renegade. They now both come in 2.1 and 2.3 sizing with the tread blocks being manipulated a little on each. Specialized has them up on their website, but still no news on the S-Works versions.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Oh man. That new Fast Trak 2.3 looks like the bee's knees.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Loch (Apr 29, 2011)

Stonerider said:


> The Maxxis website doesn't list the 29er Aspen as being tubeless ready (TR)...if you click on the BUY button it will list the Aspens in various configurations for sale. That is a non starter for me. One thing I've loved about the TR versions of Maxxis tires I have used in the past is that they mount up and seal so easily tubeless.


I've ran the old Aspens tubeless for many miles. They mounted up really well and lasted a long time. I was always impress with how well they hooked up for such a low profile tire. They even had surprisingly good traction when they were almost completely wore out. I ran these tires into the ground, had a couple plugs and one patched sidewall cut. The finally died when the tread got so thin that it kept leaking air!

If I remember correctly, J Hermida used to run the Aspens quite often. The veteran knows!

Surely you will see a TR Aspen soon (I'm betting that's what is included with these "prototypes" they are running).


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Aspens in 60TPI, without TR or EXO seal up right away (same as any other 60TPI Maxxis tire). I even prefer 60TPI to EXO due to weight and compliance on the sidewall.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Oh man. That new Fast Trak 2.3 looks like the bee's knees.


I agree! Unfortunately I just purchased a 2.2 Fast Trak. Now I've got to wait until I wear that sucker out before purchasing the 2.3.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Speaking of tires, I wonder if Maxxis has a marketing/advertising department? Surely they should try to capitalize on Nino's win on their "stealth" XC tire. I don't think Nino has lost a race since he switched from tubulars to the Maxxis clincher/tubeless tire this season. He surely hasn't had a puncture in a race on those new tires.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Stonerider said:


> Speaking of tires, I wonder if Maxxis has a marketing/advertising department? Surely they should try to capitalize on Nino's win on their "stealth" XC tire. I don't think Nino has lost a race since he switched from tubulars to the Maxxis clincher/tubeless tire this season. He surely hasn't had a puncture in a race on those new tires.


Grapevine is those guys are Maxxis next year.

The end of the tubular MTB tire experiment


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Yet Nino's results on tubulars was stellar, only Absalon could touch him and I'm not sure who's record was better during that (tubular) era.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yet Nino's results on tubulars was stellar, only Absalon could touch him and I'm not sure who's record was better during that (tubular) era.


Kulhavy rode right past him many a time during his 27.5 tubular experiments. While tubulars probably aren't a bad idea, the best tested tread patterns go onto clinchers.

I'd give Kulhavy's 29er FS some of the credit for his breakout season where he was regularly winning by 90 seconds. The rest of the field was forced to admit that 26" is slower, period. Seems funny how debatable this was a couple of years ago. Humans...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chomxxo said:


> Kulhavy rode right past him many a time during his 27.5 tubular experiments.


And how many times has he beaten Nino in the last 2-3 years? I'm definitely not saying that the tubulars he was running were the ultimate, everything evolves, but to say that it was a failed experiment seems a little silly considering he was one of the most dominate riders in the history of the sport while using them. Yes, flats did cost him a race or 2 but everyone flats from time to time, Nino's flats are more visible because he's in the spotlight.

Same with 27.5, he might (or not) prefer the 29 now but how can anyone argue that the smaller wheels weren't the fastest when he had the best record among the top riders in the world while riding them?


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> And how many times has he beaten Nino in the last 2-3 years? I'm definitely not saying that the tubulars he was running were the ultimate, everything evolves, but to say that it was a failed experiment seems a little silly considering he was one of the most dominate riders in the history of the sport while using them. Yes, flats did cost him a race or 2 but everyone flats from time to time, Nino's flats are more visible because he's in the spotlight.
> 
> Same with 27.5, he might (or not) prefer the 29 now but how can anyone argue that the smaller wheels weren't the fastest when he had the best record among the top riders in the world while riding them?


Kulhavy has suffered several injuries in the past few years, including a knee injury and a broken wrist. He's got more than enough power to compete for the top podium spot on a good day.

Staying on topic, I noticed that his bars appeared to have widened from 660 to 700ish, but he still seems to be using the same -16, 120mm stem. Hmm.


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Singletrack Magazine has a look at the new 2017 SID and the new DT Swiss Olympic XC fork

Singletrack Magazine | VIDEO: Olympic XC Forks Weigh-Off!

SID claimed weight is 1366gms in a 29" x 100mm, actual is 1500gms with axle

DT Swiss claimed weight is 1485gms in a 29" x 100mm, actual is 1500gms with axle


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

They needed to compare them to a Fox SC


----------



## bopApocalypse (Aug 27, 2005)

NordieBoy said:


> They needed to compare them to a Fox SC


like this?

(FOX 32 Step-Cast fork - Mtbr.com)









yes, that's w/o axle and w/ cut steerer (but, with a star nut that neither of the carbon steer'erd forks would have) - but 1291g puts it ~70g under their claimed weight. The OE 'Kabolt' axle is claimed to be ~35g.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

It's a shame that Cannondale can't pay the best riders anymore because this is a 2011 model:










What are the newer models down to now, 2.55 lbs?


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

From R2-Bike, seen heavier pictures as well. Forgot to weight our demo fork before mounting, will be interesting to do so with remote-kit mounted.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

chomxxo said:


> It's a shame that Cannondale can't pay the best riders anymore because this is a 2011 model:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What about the special thru axle, hub and crown needed?

They might be light, but adding all required parts I think they are pretty close to the fox ones. Feel free to correct me If I'm mistaken.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

TDLover said:


> What about the special thru axle, hub and crown needed?
> 
> They might be light, but adding all required parts I think they are pretty close to the fox ones. Feel free to correct me If I'm mistaken.


From my rough memory, the Lefty is heavier then the lightest XC forks. But the handling is so much better, that it is really up to the rider to decide what they want more.

Personally, my XC bike is a Lefty, and I love how smooth it is and how well it tracks. Of course, it is the heavy aluminum one, so I'm carrying a lot of extra weight.


----------



## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

TDLover said:


> What about the special thru axle, hub and crown needed?
> 
> They might be light, but adding all required parts I think they are pretty close to the fox ones. Feel free to correct me If I'm mistaken.


The axle and lower leg are one piece. The hub is not significantly different weight-wise. The steerer should definitely be included in the comparison though.

Edit:
The 240S Lefty is claimed 21g lighter than the regular 6-bolt 240S.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

The Lefty hub is one of the lightest and yet strongest hubs, sporting a built-in through-axle a decade before other forks had it. It weighs only 110g.

The Project 321 Steerer is about 150 grams. The Cannondale HT-specific steerer is lighter still.

So yes the Lefty is still, after all these years, the lightest and stiffest fork on the market.



TDLover said:


> What about the special thru axle, hub and crown needed?
> 
> They might be light, but adding all required parts I think they are pretty close to the fox ones. Feel free to correct me If I'm mistaken.





Sidewalk said:


> From my rough memory, the Lefty is heavier then the lightest XC forks. But the handling is so much better, that it is really up to the rider to decide what they want more.
> 
> Personally, my XC bike is a Lefty, and I love how smooth it is and how well it tracks. Of course, it is the heavy aluminum one, so I'm carrying a lot of extra weight.





spsoon said:


> The axle and lower leg are one piece. The hub is not significantly different weight-wise. The steerer should definitely be included in the comparison though.
> 
> Edit:
> The 240S Lefty is claimed 21g lighter than the regular 6-bolt 240S.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Is Emily Batty racing on a Fat Bike?!?!?!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Just deep-ish carbon rims and XR1 TI tires...

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> Is Emily Batty racing on a Fat Bike?!?!?!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Keep in mind that bikes in Photo trim and in Race trim are not necessarily the same.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

chomxxo said:


> So yes the Lefty is still, after all these years, the lightest and stiffest fork on the market.


Except for the fact that the latest versions are significantly heavier than the 2011 model pictured above. I love Lefty's, but they are no longer the lightest.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

brentos said:


> Except for the fact that the latest versions are significantly heavier than the 2011 model pictured above. I love Lefty's, but they are no longer the lightest.


Really? I'm not doubting you but I'd like to see the numbers and find out why. I have a 2011 and love it (thanks to Mendon Cyclesmith) but would prefer to get a newer model some day that doesn't risk bearing migration.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LMN said:


> Keep in mind that bikes in Photo trim and in Race trim are not necessarily the same.


True. Those new Bontrager kicks really are wide!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Commonaeros (May 28, 2015)

LMN said:


> Keep in mind that bikes in Photo trim and in Race trim are not necessarily the same.


This is off topic, but as the WC season winds down, I want to say a massive thanks for your continued insight from within the pro ranks. I'm always interested in your opinions and knowledge and really appreciate your effort to continue coming on here.

Also, well done to Catherine on a stellar year (So Far)


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

New forks not so light... ended up with weighting a Fox SC yesterday with remote, 1498g with steerer cut to fit a low profile stem. Add in a 35g for a tool-free axle instead of the the kabolt. See bike24 have measure the 27.5" version to 1480g (guess with uncut steerer)


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

chomxxo said:


> Really? I'm not doubting you but I'd like to see the numbers and find out why. I have a 2011 and love it (thanks to Mendon Cyclesmith) but would prefer to get a newer model some day that doesn't risk bearing migration.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Some more info here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/cannondale/2016-950297-5.html

A med. Carbon XLR 2.0, w/ remote, w/o steerer was 1592g. Still a great fork, but not the lightest.


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> Really? I'm not doubting you but I'd like to see the numbers and find out why. I have a 2011 and love it (thanks to Mendon Cyclesmith) but would prefer to get a newer model some day that doesn't risk bearing migration.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would not change from an older version to the Lefty 2.0 if I were you, there have been a number of quality issues with it and it requires oil change every 50 hours (25 h if you are racing). I have a lefty 2.0 PBR (the alu version without remote lockout), it is 1650 grams without the steerer tube, so not very light at all. A great fork when it works but not worth the trouble i.m.o.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Skier78 said:


> I would not change from an older version to the Lefty 2.0 if I were you, there have been a number of quality issues with it and it requires oil change every 50 hours (25 h if you are racing). I have a lefty 2.0 PBR (the alu version without remote lockout), it is 1650 grams without the steerer tube, so not very light at all. A great fork when it works but not worth the trouble i.m.o.


I've had zero trouble with mine on my F-Si. And I give it some good hits. I haven't gotten the washer replaced yet either. It has about 60 hours or so.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Skier78 said:


> I would not change from an older version to the Lefty 2.0 if I were you, there have been a number of quality issues with it and it requires oil change every 50 hours (25 h if you are racing). I have a lefty 2.0 PBR (the alu version without remote lockout), it is 1650 grams without the steerer tube, so not very light at all. A great fork when it works but not worth the trouble i.m.o.












Interesting, my old 2011 Lefty has been very good to me. I get yearly service from Mendon and it's all good. This Winter I'm going to convert from remote to PBR lockout. Not sure why Cannondale would want to produce a Lefty 2.0 that is both heavier and less reliable. My Jet 9 RDO is built up to 21.4 lbs. I couldn't have broken the 22lb mark without the Lefty.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nunokas (Aug 12, 2014)

plupp said:


> New forks not so light... ended up with weighting a Fox SC yesterday with remote, 1498g with steerer cut to fit a low profile stem. Add in a 35g for a tool-free axle instead of the the kabolt. See bike24 have measure the 27.5" version to 1480g (guess with uncut steerer)


My step cast non boost gave me 1338gr with cut steerer at 17cm, spider installed and no axle (more 36gr for the kabolt). So yes, they are the lightest non "exotic working good fork" for now


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

nunokas said:


> My step cast non boost gave me 1338gr with cut steerer at 17cm, spider installed and no axle (more 36gr for the kabolt). So yes, they are the lightest non "exotic working good fork" for now


But still need to add the remote-kit adding weight. Of course, lighter than the RS-1 with the hub-weight. But not that superlight that first announced.

Some of the Spez riders did use the RS-1 this weekend again, guess it is due to performance. But when switching between FOX SC and RS-1 you instantly notice the lighter front-end.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Hmmmm...Absalon raced on Sunday on what looks like Vittoria Mezcal...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dokker (Sep 25, 2013)

Vittoria Mezcal looks like Vittoria Mezcal


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

Interesting, I thought he only raced continental. And the first thing I see on Vittorias Mezcal-homepage: For dry conditions, I only use the Mezcal.

Pauline Ferrand-prevot (2015 World XC Champion)


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Truth be told, I can't blame him for riding another brand's tires. Looks like the course was too wet for Race Kings, and X-Kings are not exactly my favorite tire ever made.

Kind of surprised Conti hasn't updated their XC tire line in the last 5 years or more.


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

My brother was a chemist with Conti for many years. Their bicycle branch is a tiny branch of the entire company. Not much revenue, fairly small market. Not much money going into R&D. Most developments are spin offs of the car tires branch (like Black Chilli, which is a car winter tire formulation ... and my brother was part of the development  )


----------



## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

quax said:


> My brother was a chemist with Conti for many years. Their bicycle branch is a tiny branch of the entire company. Not much revenue, fairly small market. Not much money going into R&D. Most developments are spin offs of the car tires branch (like Black Chilli, which is a car winter tire formulation ... and my brother was part of the development  )


Interesting. I'd agree that the lack of resources allocated for bike tires (at least the XC line) makes for a pretty limited selection. Outside of the Race Kings, there's nothing really fit for a World Cup race. Production quality has been all over the map in recent years, too. I wonder how much they pay Absalon?


----------



## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

Anybody notice (what looked like) a bell on Gunn Rita's handlebar in Andorra?


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Yep, that's a bell alright. I wonder who her bell sponsor is?



PlanB said:


> Anybody notice (what looked like) a bell on Gunn Rita's handlebar in Andorra?


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

quax said:


> My brother was a chemist with Conti for many years. Their bicycle branch is a tiny branch of the entire company. Not much revenue, fairly small market. Not much money going into R&D. Most developments are spin offs of the car tires branch (like Black Chilli, which is a car winter tire formulation ... and my brother was part of the development  )


Continental has a pretty good selection of road bike tires, although their super-durable "plus" series is a straight copy of Schwalbe.

The Race King doesn't seem to have an advantage in weight, grip, or durability to other comparable race tires. I wish that Schwalbe sponsored more top riders because they clearly put the most R&D into their mountain bike tires. I hear so much about Maxxis and Specialized but give me the choice of Rocket Ron, Racing Ralph, and Thunder Burt in multiple sizes and casings.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

not sure what other tires you have in mind but I find the high volume and weight of a RK Racesport quite unique. A perfect hard tail tire for conditions where sidewall cuts are not an issue. Unfortunately Conti has not brought a casing out that is in between Racesport and Protection. The former too susceptible to sidewall cuts and the latter stiff like a solid rubber tire. And black chilli is not a good a good rubber? Really? Which is better.

With regards to Schwalbe. Just had 5 RoRo Snakeskins at home. Claimed weight 610g. Real weights: one 650g and the for others between 680 and 710g. 

All manufacturers "cheat" with weights but this was quite the worst that I've seen in a while.

But discussing tires is like discussing favourite colours.


----------



## Loch (Apr 29, 2011)

My trails love the Black Chili. It only takes days to season them with shreds of Black Chili.


Black Chili + Sharp rocks = Bald Continental tires.


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

quax said:


> With regards to Schwalbe. Just had 5 RoRo Snakeskins at home. Claimed weight 610g. Real weights: one 650g and the for others between 680 and 710g.
> 
> All manufacturers "cheat" with weights but this was quite the worst that I've seen in a while.
> 
> But discussing tires is like discussing favourite colours.


Schwalbe have real problems with weight with the RaRa Snakeskin also (I guess every tire), you are happy if 29er 2.25 weight under 700g.

When it comes to tires you need to find what you prioritize. Myself Im looking forward to test the new S-Works Renegade for XCM.


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

Tried to replace my RK RS in the rear with a Renegade Control last year. Had three sidewall cuts with the Renegade (same type and terrain of riding). Not too impressed with its performance either (compared to RK). At the moment I ride a RK Prot in the rear. The wieght hurts but peace of mind because sidewalls cuts are our main enmies here.

One other issue I have with Schalbe are those wet patches. I ride RoRos in the front and with several different sealants I see these. It has been speculated that these are anti freezing agent seeping through










No, these are not punctures.


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

quax said:


> Tried to replace my RK RS in the rear with a Renegade Control last year. Had three sidewall cuts with the Renegade (same type and terrain of riding). Not too impressed with its performance either (compared to RK). At the moment I ride a RK Prot in the rear. The wieght hurts but peace of mind because sidewalls cuts are our main enmies here.


New thread design and compound in the 2017 Renegade. 
https://www.specialized.com/se/en/components/tires/renegade-2bliss-ready/128531


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Agreed that Schwalbe Snakeskin is a little portly. However I have never had a cut with them, racing Rons, Ralphs, and Burts everywhere from El Paso to Pennsylvania rocks. Unless the course is really rough I go with 2.1s on my FS to save weight. Has anybody tried the Performance series? I'm trying it in 2.1 and 2.25 Ron this season, not for cost but weight, since I haven't been able to trust Evolution/Liteskin with my cash, even sharp sticks will puncture them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dphoward (Jul 29, 2013)

Has there been anything posted about ninos Olympic bike?


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

quax said:


> Tried to replace my RK RS in the rear with a Renegade Control last year. Had three sidewall cuts with the Renegade (same type and terrain of riding). Not too impressed with its performance either (compared to RK). At the moment I ride a RK Prot in the rear. The wieght hurts but peace of mind because sidewalls cuts are our main enmies here.
> 
> One other issue I have with Schalbe are those wet patches. I ride RoRos in the front and with several different sealants I see these. It has been speculated that these are anti freezing agent seeping through
> 
> ...


My RaRa's looked like that all last race season. I never had a problem, the center of the tire is bald now (and of course replaced). No flats in 600 miles and there was still wet sealant inside when I changed the tire.


----------



## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

All my Schwalbes look like that. Doesn't seem to affect them in any way.


----------



## Ausable (Jan 7, 2006)

I know that Rolling Resistance tire test always bring to heated debate (also a bit offtopic here) but the Snakeskin/Protection versions of the Racing Ralph/Race King have a minimal RR difference compared to the standard version. At least on a roller, but do believe it is significant insight: 
http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

Ausable said:


> I know that Rolling Resistance tire test always bring to heated debate (also a bit offtopic here) but the Snakeskin/Protection versions of the Racing Ralph/Race King have a minimal RR difference compared to the standard version. At least on a roller, but do believe it is significant insight:
> http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews


Yes on tarmac och smooth ground. The thing with unprotected sidewalls are that you get a tire that are really smooth on impacts. Superb feeling on on rots but a little bit terrible charging hard in corners with low pressure.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Ausable said:


> I know that Rolling Resistance tire test always bring to heated debate (also a bit offtopic here) but the Snakeskin/Protection versions of the Racing Ralph/Race King have a minimal RR difference compared to the standard version. At least on a roller, but do believe it is significant insight:
> http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews


Very interesting how the Performance version of Schwalbe tires has higher puncture resistance than Snakeskin, lower weight than Snakeskin, and higher rolling resistance than the Evoultion and Snakeskin versions. Thanks for the link.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Ausable said:


> I know that Rolling Resistance tire test always bring to heated debate (also a bit offtopic here) but the Snakeskin/Protection versions of the Racing Ralph/Race King have a minimal RR difference compared to the standard version. At least on a roller, but do believe it is significant insight:
> http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews


I thought the tubeless setup versus butyl tubed tyre rolling resistance comparison on that site was interesting:

TESTED: Rolling Resistance of Tubeless Mountain Bike Tires

That's quite a big difference!

I'd be interested to know how a tubeless setup compares to a MTB tubular setup, as used by Nino Schurter before he switched to the Maxxis tyres. If you look at the latex tube versus tubeless setup (which has lower rolling resistance than the latex tube at lower pressures) would that be roughly equivalent to an MTB tubular?


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Very interesting how the Performance version of Schwalbe tires has higher puncture resistance than Snakeskin, lower weight than Snakeskin, and higher rolling resistance than the Evoultion and Snakeskin versions. Thanks for the link.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because they test puncture at tread (with needle), not at sidewall.

Almost all tubeless punctures happen at sidewall (when used with sealant).
Almost all tubed punctures happen at tread, sidewall is irrelevant.


----------



## mackdhagen (Jun 17, 2011)

I've used both the performance version and the snakeskin/evo in both RaRa's and Ro/Ro's versions and noticed no difference but yes the snakeskins are heavier because there is simply more material to protect from punctures. You can't have one without the other.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

What the hell did Jaro rode the Popobike Marathon in Mexico?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## craigebaker (Nov 19, 2010)

RS VR6 said:


> Saw something of Facebook this morning about Nino running a 40T on the front with the 10-50 out back.


No way he ever needs that 40/10 combo!


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

craigebaker said:


> No way he ever needs that 40/10 combo!


Agree. My guess is that these pros base chainring choice on the easiest gear they will need for a race. They are likely chasing the increased efficiency of the larger chainring & cog combos, rather than the top end gearing.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

brentos said:


> Agree. My guess is that these pros base chainring choice on the easiest gear they will need for a race. They are likely chasing the increased efficiency of the larger chainring & cog combos, rather than the top end gearing.


Isn't that how everyone does it?

34x42 is usually enough to get me up ANYTHING. 34x10 only sees use on road/gravel intervals. The flatter the course, the bigger I'll run, not because of top end speed, but because it keeps me in the middle of the cassette longer.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Isn't that how everyone does it?
> 
> 34x42 is usually enough to get me up ANYTHING. 34x10 only sees use on road/gravel intervals. The flatter the course, the bigger I'll run, not because of top end speed, but because it keeps me in the middle of the cassette longer.


Probably, but Craigebaker's comment seemed to be looking for understanding as to why he would choose such a tall combo. (Jaro may also use 40/10 for high intensity interval's, or group road rides on his mtb), I used to use 44/11 on my 29er all the time in group road rides.

30x42 is what I need for the climbs around here, the difference in what you vs what I need for low gearing illustrates how different folks need different gearing...I'm switching to Eagle this year though and I'm moving to an area where most climbs are under 10 minutes (if that), so I'll probably choose a 36 tooth ring for 2017.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

brentos said:


> Probably, but Craigebaker's comment seemed to be looking for understanding as to why he would choose such a tall combo. (Jaro may also use 40/10 for high intensity interval's, or group road rides on his mtb), I used to use 44/11 on my 29er all the time in group road rides.
> 
> 30x42 is what I need for the climbs around here, the difference in what you vs what I need for low gearing illustrates how different folks need different gearing...I'm switching to Eagle this year though and I'm moving to an area where most climbs are under 10 minutes (if that), so I'll probably choose a 36 tooth ring for 2017.


I also find there is a difference between climbing something once, and climbing it 6 times in a race.

I know around here there are lots of climbs that I need to put out 400 watts for 30 seconds to be able climb with a 32/42 chainring at a cadence of 60-70rpm. In training that is easily doable, but in a race where I have been pinned for an hour I just can't do that.

This is why you see the mid-pack guys on the world-cup circuit racing 30T and 32T chainrings. And also the reason why the eagle cassette makes so much sense (although I would personally think it would have been better with an 11 instead of a 10).


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

At 40T chainring, I would be concerned about clearance on logs and drops. 
I know pro's can handle their bikes light years away from mere mortals, but I think it still is a concern.

I definitely agree on the race gearing comment. Course dependent, for me to be able to either ride on the steepest parts of the course in my area on final laps, or not to butcher myself in the early ones (again paying for it later on), 11-46 with 30T or 32T is all that I need on a 29er.


----------



## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

34t is the biggest i can run with a normal chain line. So either their bikes have clearance or the chain ring has to be dished away from the bike. The opposite of what you want if your trying to stay in the larger cogs.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Goran_injo said:


> At 40T chainring, I would be concerned about clearance on logs and drops.
> I know pro's can handle their bikes light years away from mere mortals, but I think it still is a concern.
> 
> I definitely agree on the race gearing comment. Course dependent, for me to be able to either ride on the steepest parts of the course in my area on final laps, or not to butcher myself in the early ones (again paying for it later on), 11-46 with 30T or 32T is all that I need on a 29er.


I think Eagle 1x12 is a great idea. The front derailleur is a terrible invention and the sooner it's gone, the better. The only drawback is the huge apparent chain lengths, which must only get longer with a 38 or 40t chainring. Shimano needs to really get on the ball and support XD hubs (unless it'll get them sued by SRAM) and come out with its own 1x12 as well.

I myself use 36t on 11-speed XX1 (but with 180mm cranks, so this ends up being about equivalent to 34t). There are steep climbs that one might want to spin up, but during a race, I have a feeling that the podium World Cup guys prefer big rings for the same reason: you're there to get through the course as fast as possible. Too easy a gear makes you lose focus. I have pretty good pedal form and can spin fast, but as discussed on another thread, best to keep the RPMs low in a 90-120 minute race and grunt it out, rather than spiking the HR even more.

On my big, heavy offseason trail bike, sure, 32t is perfect.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chomxxo said:


> The front derailleur is a terrible invention and the sooner it's gone, the better.


The front derailleur has been mostly absent from the world cup scene for awhile now, how will it benefit me or anyone else when it's totally gone?


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> The front derailleur has been mostly absent from the world cup scene for awhile now, how will it benefit me or anyone else when it's totally gone?


Why, Captain Obvious, that's a very good question 

As a kid, I distinctly remember being confused by the front and rear derailleur shifters on my neighbor's 10-speed (I just had a BMX bike). Which one does what. Which way? Consumer bikes would benefit even more from 1x.


----------



## sandyf (Sep 3, 2012)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

10-50 is not needed for XCO racing. Perhaps, big perhaps for XCM.

11-46 is more than enough. I run a sunrace 11sp 11-46 cassette, lighter then XT 11sp 11-46 , and don't miss any gears at all at XCO.

Shimano need to release 11sp 11-46 XTR level, light cassette to stay in the racing game. But I am sure they know this already, racers feedback from WC, and other levels, surely came in to them.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chomxxo said:


> Why, Captain Obvious, that's a very good question
> 
> As a kid, I distinctly remember being confused by the front and rear derailleur shifters on my neighbor's 10-speed (I just had a BMX bike). Which one does what. Which way? Consumer bikes would benefit even more from 1x.


1x gearing confuses lots of people too, hence ss. I guess I was asking that with all the 1x offerings available why do you (or anyone else) care whether or not the front derailleur hangs around? I kind of like mine.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> 1x gearing confuses lots of people too, hence ss. I guess I was asking that with all the 1x offerings available why do you (or anyone else) care whether or not the front derailleur hangs around? I kind of like mine.


 I'll bet that your SS is made of space-age titanium or carbon fiber, with precision machined bearings and hydraulic disc brakes, no? We all defend the level of technology that we become accustomed to.

Front derailleur is an example of an engineer's solution to a problem. I see it all the time in working through human factors problems with my software development team.

Back to topic, I think that the big chainrings we see with Eagle World Cup bikes mean that it's not needed for XCO. They don't need 38x10 either, but the top guys would prefer to not be too spinny.

I'm staying with 11-speed XX1 until SRAM comes out with Eagle Etap--now that would be something!


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> I'll bet that your SS is made of space-age titanium or carbon fiber, with precision machined bearings and hydraulic disc brakes, no? We all defend the level of technology that we become accustomed to.
> 
> Front derailleur is an example of an engineer's solution to a problem. I see it all the time in working through human factors problems with my software development team.
> 
> ...


1x11 or 1x12 is awesome, but it still has its limitations. I switch between a double and a single quite frequently and can't decide which is best.

I have run the XTR-double with syncro shifting and didn't love it. The range was nice but the shift from big, to small always seemed to happen when I didn't want it to. I find in training I am super happy with a 32 with an 11-42 cassette but at the tail end of races the 32-42 is too big of a gear for me.

I am going to try running Di2 with the front derailleur on my XC bike. For someone of my fitness level, who pedals at the cadences that I do, a double still has a purpose. The 26-42 allows me to tackle some of the hideous climbs that appear at the end of races in my neck of the woods.

But I haven't run the eagle cassette yet. I have however used the Shimano 11-46 cassette. The 46T was sweet, but I found the jump between the 37 to 46 to be a bit large for my taste. I think a range of 35T requires 12 speeds.

From the conversations that I have had with WC racers, they are pretty happy with the Eagle cassette. Many of them felt that a 32-42 didn't offer them an easy enough gear (this is why you saw people racing with 28T chain rings). I think Sram did a job on that cassette. Although I think the cassette would be better with an 11 instead of a 10. The jump between a 10 and 12 is absolutely huge an 11 would have been more efficient.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

LMN said:


> From the conversations that I have had with WC racers, they are pretty happy with the Eagle cassette. Many of them felt that a 32-42 didn't offer them an easy enough gear (this is why you saw people racing with 28T chain rings). I think Sram did a job on that cassette. Although I think the cassette would be better with an 11 instead of a 10. The jump between a 10 and 12 is absolutely huge an 11 would have been more efficient.


The only issue I've had with the SRAM 1x cassettes is that 10-12 jump. Makes finding cruising gear on the road very difficult... If I drove my bike to the trailhead, or didn't commute on my mountain bike, I'd feel differently.


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

LMN said:


> But I haven't run the eagle cassette yet. I have however used the Shimano 11-46 cassette. The 46T was sweet, but I found the jump between the 37 to 46 to be a bit large for my taste. I think a range of 35T requires 12 speeds.


What about the 9-46 cassette (11 sp) from e13: https://bythehive.com/collections/drivetrain/products/trs-race-cassette
It has a 33-39-46 gear ratio


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

LMN said:


> From the conversations that I have had with WC racers, they are pretty happy with the Eagle cassette. Many of them felt that a 32-42 didn't offer them an easy enough gear (this is why you saw people racing with 28T chain rings). I think Sram did a job on that cassette. Although I think the cassette would be better with an 11 instead of a 10. The jump between a 10 and 12 is absolutely huge an 11 would have been more efficient.


The XTR casette is just a terrible cassette for going 1x11 with but again, the release of XTR M9000 as an 1x11 group was just horrible from Shimano. To late and with design flaws. A front chainring not good enough and a cassette with minimal range.

They sort of tried to fix it with the 11-46 in XT-level but at the same time SRAM released their 12 speed group separating them even more. Shimano's development department is having a tough day. Time moves so much faster than their brains.

But I fully understand Shimano's way of thinking with keeping the cadance smooth, I usually just use 12-36 on my 11-42 cassette and then have one high speed gear and one bailout gear for the climbs.

In European you would have Women/Juniors running 26-28T chainrings to be able to climb good, but then you could easily spot the Shimano riders on the more high speed section running out of gears.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

SRAM had it right for me with the 10-42 cassette with a 34 tooth chainring. The 42 gave me enough climbing gear for my area and the 10 gave me enough top end speed to not get dropped on road sections. As far as the jumps between the gears with the 10-42, I try to remember there are guys riding the same courses on singlespeed. It's all about training your legs to generate power at different cadences.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I have trained/raced in both 11-40/10-42 offerings from Shimano and SRAM, and to my liking, the 11-40 was just perfect with a 32 or 34 ring up front. I don't have super long steep climbs nor super fast sections on my races, so for training, I use a 36 ring and try to push as hard as I can. Also, since I am running slicks for road riding at this point, the 36 is perfect at the moment. Right now I have a 10-42 and the 42 is just a bail out gear...

It all depends of who you are and what you do. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kwalker (Jul 25, 2016)

sandyf said:


> It's because the Olympics are a chance to reach a huge international audience unfamiliar with the Specialized brand, who wouldn't necessarily know what "S-Works" is.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Delay in S-Works production.


----------



## sandyf (Sep 3, 2012)

Kwalker said:


> Delay in S-Works production.


I'm not sure what you're referring to, sorry. What delay?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bikerboy85 (Mar 15, 2010)

Can anyone explain what's going on with the specialized team in terms of gear sponsorship. I've seen photos of Jara riding shimano brakes, their cape epic bikes have magura mt8 but the rest of the drive train is sram


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

*Let's talk 2017!*

Thought it might be a good time to bump this thread as the 2017 season is under way.

One thing that strikes me as interesting is that with all the shifts to wider rims and tires, we still see numero uno Nino on 24mm internal rims and 2.25 lightweight tires, handling the likes of Cape Epic just fine.

*Bikes of the Epic: Nino Schurter's Scott Spark RC*

Few have his mad skills of course, which leads to the second thing...

With more and more racers sporting a dropper, will we see it become standard to the point that even Nino can't resist?

Thoughts, commentary...


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Companion piece to link above on Scott Racing team's essential non-bike equipment, some interesting hacks:

https://www.bikehub.co.za/features/...-scott-sram-mtb-racings-epic-essentials-r6337


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

MattMay said:


> With more and more racers sporting a dropper, will we see it become standard to the point that even Nino can't resist?
> 
> Thoughts, commentary...


I imagine that like others, he will opt to use one when the course gets technical enough to be worth the weight.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Sidewalk said:


> I imagine that like others, he will opt to use one when the course gets technical enough to be worth the weight.


Nino is a slow convert to new stuff, but soon his sponsorship will demand him to use one. Jenny already is testing one. Nino didn't need a 29er to win, he doesn't need a dropper either but it will happen, mark my words.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

TDLover said:


> Nino is a slow convert to new stuff, but soon his sponsorship will demand him to use one. Jenny already is testing one. Nino didn't need a 29er to win, he doesn't need a dropper either but it will happen, mark my words.


Well, this is low hanging fruit. If he switches to a dropper for any reason other then your claim, you can still claim to be right. If they come out with a 100g dropper, then of course he would run it and you can still claim to be right,

Whether or not he needed 29 to win is unanswerable. However, he did win on 29, so clearly it wasn't a poor decision. He didn't win gold on 27.5, he did on 29.

A guy I raced cat 1 with last season runs a dropper post on a full suspension XC bike. I run a rigid post on a hard tail. I descend faster then him and beat him in all but one race. For the record, my trail bike is 27.5, full suspension, with a dropper. I'm not against the parts, I just don't need them for my XC races.


----------



## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

Nino had a dropper on his (then) prototype Spark last year at, I think, La Bresse. It came off for the race though. I bet we see him on a new and super light Rock Shox post soon. I'm actually really surprised RS hasn't already released something like this. I would also bet Cannondale will show an innovative in-house post this year on Fumic's bike.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Sidewalk said:


> Whether or not he needed 29 to win is unanswerable. However, he did win on 29, so clearly it wasn't a poor decision. He didn't win gold on 27.5, he did on 29.


He was #1 in the world on 27.5's so I'd say that question is answerable. The olympics is only 1 race.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

The new KS Lev CI is supposedly 450 including cable and lever.

I'm guessing we'll see sub-400g, 100mm+ droppers soon as more companies get into that game. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> The new KS Lev CI is supposedly 450 including cable and lever.
> 
> I'm guessing we'll see sub-400g, 100mm+ droppers soon as more companies get into that game.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I have one and it's less than 0.5 lb heavier than my Niner RDO carbon post.

I raced with it part of last season, and it definitely helped in corners and technical sections. For weekly riding though, it's not as comfortable as the RDO post when used on my rigid bike.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Lol, now that they're here, some downhiller bros want the UCI (which they usually won't speak to) to outlaw 29ers! I'd say that speaks volumes.

https://dirtmountainbike.com/featur...-backwards-step-ucis-take-29ers-downhill.html

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/catha...ke-check-xc-world-cup-round-1-nove-mesto.html

I noticed Pendrel is running a OneUp 45T on her XTR drivetrain. Lots of the ladies appeared to be using their 50T Eagle cogs if they had them yesterday. I'd love to get a set of those high TPI ikons.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

New MMR full suspension bike? Look like Mondraker as well...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

csteven71 said:


> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/catha...ke-check-xc-world-cup-round-1-nove-mesto.html
> 
> I noticed Pendrel is running a OneUp 45T on her XTR drivetrain. Lots of the ladies appeared to be using their 50T Eagle cogs if they had them yesterday. I'd love to get a set of those high TPI ikons.


The OneUp 45T on the XTR cassette works really well. When converted it is the same weight or perhaps lighter then the Eagle Cassette. I think the jumps are a bit nicer, the only bad jump is 18T-21T. That one I notice on the road but not on the trails.

The only issues is it tricky to set-up and initially the 18T cog doesn't shift super well. After a couple of rides the shifting improves.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I can be wrong, but it looks like a Fox rear shock on Nino's bike...

David Valero looked to be riding with an 1x11

Carbon rims for BMC racing? Duke Lucky Jack?

Was Anton Cooper on 27.5 or 29er? It seemed to me it was on the big side...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Pinkbike have quite an interesting article about the development of the current Scott Spark full suspension bike for Nino Schurter:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/developing-the-scott-spark.html

I don't think it was the original intention but the extent to which they absolutely trash the previous model Scott Spark made me laugh.

It seems to happen with a lot of new bikes - the old model that was so great is replaced, and overnight the marketing drive switches to selling the new one. At that point the old bike is toast.

Just read the section about the changes in leverage ratio and shock position between old and new and look at the graph they provide.:lol:

_"Joe reveals that, "They wanted suspension that really works, that isn't just there for show on the bike. If they were going to carry the extra 600g on the frame it had to really work, they didn't want over-inflated shocks." Joe is candid when it comes to assessing the suspension on the old bike, "The feeling was that it was too harsh at the start of the stroke and then it would rush through its travel." To chase that goal they had to make the radical step of ditching the old suspension layout in favour of an all-new design, one that required them to essentially invert the kinematic of the old bike. "_ *Pinkbike.com*

There are plenty of other manufacturers examples of this but this has to be one of the most blatant. When the next revision of the Scott Spark comes out in a few years and needs to be sold I'm sure the same will happen to the 2016 Scott Spark too.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

WR304 said:


> Pinkbike have quite an interesting article about the development of the current Scott Spark full suspension bike for Nino Schurter:
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/developing-the-scott-spark.html
> 
> ...


They have to say that in order to sell. Whats surprising is that the new scott spark is a single pivot suspension design. By today standards that is one of the simplest designs out there, it only works so well for Nino because its optimized for only100mm travel which is too little, but far from being advanced.

Old spark used a single pivot as well, but would work differently as they explained, that one was also an old design not on par with other manufacturers.

BMC, Giant, Trek, Focus and even Specialized with their antiquated BRAIN technology should work better than the newest scott, but clearly the difference is the rider and that for XC races simple dual suspension technology is enough.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

It's a modified single pivot with solid/pivotless rear triangle. Same as Yeti, Orbea, Kona, Cannondale, etc. 

Shock placement varies, of course.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> It's a modified single pivot with solid/pivotless rear triangle. Same as Yeti, Orbea, Kona, Cannondale, etc.
> 
> Shock placement varies, of course.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Exactly, and all those you mentioned are inferior to those who innovated and got their technology patented like the ones I mentioned. The advantage of the former is that they have the weight on their side and that rear shocks have come a long way and compensate pretty well, despite the suspension arrangement.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

TDLover said:


> Exactly, and all those you mentioned are inferior to those who innovated and got their technology patented like the ones I mentioned. The advantage of the former is that they have the weight on their side and that rear shocks have come a long way and compensate pretty well, despite the suspension arrangement.


Why are they inferior, exactly?

Because they don't have a patent?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Why are they inferior, exactly?
> 
> Because they don't have a patent?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


They used to have a patent, they are just so old that they have expired.

The suspension arrangement is inferior on those because such designs are known for having a characteristically high pedal bob and brake jack curves. To fix these manufacturers that used those designs have made it work by the use of complex rear shocks which compensate internally to try to fix these issues. Scott with their Genius line, Specialized with their brain technology, Cannondale with inverted dampers and so on. That's why I said that rear shocks have evolved, that they make a not very compliant suspension design work better, amazing even.

The newer designs have a better suspension arrangement that diminish pedal bob or brake jack just by their geometry and link arrangement, they are also active under braking, even if you put a simple coil damper.

Now, don't get me wrong, an old design with an advanced rear shock will make your bike behave very good. A new design with advanced rear shock will make it even better at the cost of price, weight and added complexity.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

None of the designs in question are more than two years old...

You might be thinking of true single pivots, which the old Spark was, and the Epic is.

They aren't the same thing.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bikerumor just did a piece of Nino's bike. And yes, he is using a Fox rear shock.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Nino's bike is visibly slacker than others. Obviously didn't hurt his climbing and cornering as long held superstitions in XC would lead one to believe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> None of the designs in question are more than two years old...
> 
> You might be thinking of true single pivots, which the old Spark was, and the Epic is.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, are you saying the new scott Nino uses is a new suspension design? (new as in no older than two years)

Can you tell me what exactly is new about it?


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

TDLover said:


> Just to be clear, are you saying the new scott Nino uses is a new suspension design? (new as in no older than two years)
> 
> Can you tell me what exactly is new about it?


For starters, it uses flexing seat stay and has no pivot at the rear axle.

Unlike the bike it replaced.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Watching pros very carefully a few weeks back, after my expert race, I have come to the conclusion that suspension may not really matter at all for them, or far less than it does for someone that uses the bike for something other than racing at the highest level. The pros appear to be using bar-operated lockouts so hard that it effectively turns the bikes into hardtails, so then it doesn't really matter how crappy the suspension is, because it's negated. There are still plenty of pros out there riding hardtails too and it seems at their age and body type, they can simply endure the abuse of hardtails and locked out suspension, it's a lot for even an expert category racer to put their body through. As much as I like to be on a suspension setup that is a good compromise of pedaling performance and bump performance, I think it matters little at the pro level.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> For starters, it uses flexing seat stay and has no pivot at the rear axle.
> 
> Unlike the bike it replaced.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


The new spark is definitely better than the old one. The design itself is nothing new just a clever arrangement of the geometry and well used materials, is not at the top of pedal efficiency, but as Jayem just said its an okay compromise because pros will be using the bike fully locked up when pedaling on flats or uphills. They will only turn on suspension when going downhill and you usually don't need to pedal a lot there.

Just before I said even specialized was probably better, but after a more careful review of the new Scott it seems to be better than what specialized has, so I guess it is a worthy upgrade after all.


----------



## Hermes475 (Mar 1, 2007)

TDLover said:


> They have to say that in order to sell. Whats surprising is that the new scott spark is a single pivot suspension design. By today standards that is one of the simplest designs out there, it only works so well for Nino because its optimized for only100mm travel which is too little, but far from being advanced.


I am not really sure how to respond to this statement but I want to address some of its shortcoming because it makes linkage activated single pivots seem inferior to other designs. The other more "advanced" designs you are referencing I assume are things like VPP, DW-link, horst link, and any other bullsh!t marketing term various bike companies have managed to make up. The reality is that these terms mean relatively little and that a terribly riding bike can be made using any of these designs just as a wonderfully riding bike can be created using these designs. I encourage any serious rider to see through the marketing nonsense and look at the data, using linkage design or other software, or more importantly, ride the bikes and make up their own minds.

Most important aspects of any bicycle suspension system can be characterized by examining graphs of leverage ratio, anti-squat, anti-rise, and pedal kickback. You can get very good numbers with linkage activated single pivots as well as other more "advanced" designs.

Disclaimer: I do not know everything about bicycle suspension and do not claim to but I do have a potentially unhealthy fascination with understanding the mechanics behind suspension.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Hermes475 said:


> I am not really sure how to respond to this statement but I want to address some of its shortcoming because it makes linkage activated single pivots seem inferior to other designs. The other more "advanced" designs you are referencing I assume are things like VPP, DW-link, horst link, and any other bullsh!t marketing term various bike companies have managed to make up. The reality is that these terms mean relatively little and that a terribly riding bike can be made using any of these designs just as a wonderfully riding bike can be created using these designs. I encourage any serious rider to see through the marketing nonsense and look at the data, using linkage design or other software, or more importantly, ride the bikes and make up their own minds.
> 
> Most important aspects of any bicycle suspension system can be characterized by examining graphs of leverage ratio, anti-squat, anti-rise, and pedal kickback. You can get very good numbers with linkage activated single pivots as well as other more "advanced" designs.
> 
> Disclaimer: I do not know everything about bicycle suspension and do not claim to but I do have a potentially unhealthy fascination with understanding the mechanics behind suspension.


I'm gonna agree with you, details are what matters. This is the linkage review of the latest scott "Scott Spark", so I wasn't making anything up when I said its not the most efficient design for pedal efficiency.


----------



## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> Bikerumor just did a piece of Nino's bike. And yes, he is using a Fox rear shock.


I saw that, there was a bit about Rock Shox not having a remote that fits in the shock's mounting location.

Rock Shox is rushing to fix the problem.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Jayem said:


> There are still plenty of pros out there riding hardtails too and it seems at their age and body type, they can simply endure the abuse of hardtails and locked out suspension, it's a lot for even an expert category racer to put their body through.


http://nebula.wsimg.com/cdb1e3c3aaa...6D926AC17E89A205F&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Tinker Juarez races endurance (8 hours) with a hardtail (as do I). I haven't asked him about it, but I heard from someone else that when he rides his FS, he leaves it open the whole time.

A friend of mine races a Spark RC WC and says the rear end is totally solid locked out.

But I do think they are left open a lot for climbing. It seems the tires get a better bite in more technical or loose trails.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Wonder how a Tantrum XC bike would go...


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

TDLover said:


> They used to have a patent, they are just so old that they have expired.
> 
> The suspension arrangement is inferior on those because such designs are known for having a characteristically high pedal bob and brake jack curves. To fix these manufacturers that used those designs have made it work by the use of complex rear shocks which compensate internally to try to fix these issues. Scott with their Genius line, Specialized with their brain technology, Cannondale with inverted dampers and so on. That's why I said that rear shocks have evolved, that they make a not very compliant suspension design work better, amazing even.
> 
> ...


All the ones listed (less so the Scott, but still better than FSR) have very, very low "pedal bob" as they have a relatively high main pivot (and a ton of inherent anti-squat). They pedal very well with even the simplest rear shocks.

Brake jack is a horribly outdated term that means nothing whatsoever. Brake squat is high with these models, good in some ways, less desirable in others. With only 100-120mm of travel, and the design intent (pedaling really really hard all the time), the anti-squat characteristics and simplicity (and low weight/high lateral stiffness) of the pivotless rear end are a great tradeoff.

The rising rate linkages of the Kona and Scott in particular allow for good traction and a bottomless suspension feel. I've ridden both extensively and they are both great bikes, from suspension performance to geometry.

In the case of the Scott, it has optimal (if you define ~100% as "optimal") anti-squat with a ~28t chainring. It's likely (and from the Pinkbike article, it seems so) that they sought a more active feel under power (remember - higher anti-squat value means less active when pedaling) and preferred to use a mechanical lockout to firm things up all the time if needed. The other upside is less feedback through the pedals over bumps while cranking, so this was likely a conscious choice, not a design flaw. Note the Norco Revolver and Trek Top Fuel do things very similarly, and have similar anti-squat values.

These are highly evolved single pivots, and nothing like a traditional low single pivot (or a FSR bike, for that matter) under power. A simple glance at the placement of the main pivot tells you that, but linkage analysis tells you a lot more.

Kona Hei Hei Trail 2017 - Linkage Design

The Hei Hei is the most laterally stiff full suspension frame I've ridden, and I've ridden a lot of bikes.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There are some detailed pictures of the new Mondraker full suspension XC bike from Nove Mesto here:

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/05/2...type-carbon-full-suspension-xc-mountain-bike/

.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

WR304 said:


> There are some detailed pictures of the new Mondraker full suspension XC bike from Nove Mesto here:
> 
> https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/05/2...type-carbon-full-suspension-xc-mountain-bike/
> 
> .


Beat me to it. Sadly, the top tube aero design seems totally pointless and the head angle is apparently going to be 70 degrees. No posted top tube or stem lengths. I was hoping for something revolutionary, coming from Mondraker.


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Jayem said:


> Watching pros very carefully a few weeks back, after my expert race, I have come to the conclusion that suspension may not really matter at all for them, or far less than it does for someone that uses the bike for something other than racing at the highest level. The pros appear to be using bar-operated lockouts so hard that it effectively turns the bikes into hardtails, so then it doesn't really matter how crappy the suspension is, because it's negated. There are still plenty of pros out there riding hardtails too and it seems at their age and body type, they can simply endure the abuse of hardtails and locked out suspension, it's a lot for even an expert category racer to put their body through. As much as I like to be on a suspension setup that is a good compromise of pedaling performance and bump performance, I think it matters little at the pro level.


Agreed. My town has a pro with multiple Stars and Stripes jerseys from road & mtb, and he won the age category dirt national championship riding a 2016 Scott Spark which gets lambasted as being a horrific design (mentioned in this thread and Scott's latest marketing sales pitch and from Scott sponsored racers I've spoken to about the FS design). He wins at short XC, 8 hour races, team races, races with lots of climbing, descending, etc. Now he's on a 2017 Spark and things have not changed.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

When ever I hear someone say "you don't need a lockout leaver for this bike" I know they are not an XC racer. If you are racing a FS, some sort of adjustable low speed compression is a must.

When I am climbing as my weight get shifted to the back of the bike I want my suspension to sit high in its travel, when descending when weight is transferred forward I want the rear suspension to sag. There is no way these characteristic can be achieved without adjustable compression.

Personally on my XC bike I run the Fox ICD system. The easy adjustment from the three different setting allows me to tune the rear suspension for descending. In the past I use to run no volume spacers and relatively high air pressure. This gave me suspension that was firm to pedal with and bottom out resistance but on a 100mm bike this compromised small bump performance and the kept the rear of the bike tall while descending. Now that I can easily switch compression setting I run the largest spacer that fits and about 20 less psi. This lowers the ride height of the rear suspension well still giving good bottom out resistance. Now the bike doesn't climb super in the open setting but with smallest movement of my thumb the bike is transformed to climbing rocket.


I don't even really look at suspension curves anymore. The use of volume spacers allows me to do a lot of tuning of that curve to get the feel I like.


----------



## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

As much as I love my Yeti ASRc, the fact that it comes without a remote lockout option for the rear shock is plain stupid. Now I find myself fumbling at the shock to manually lock it in every race. It's annoying.
Yeti says they don't see the necessity of a lockout at all. Like LMN said: they probably don't do any XC racing...


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Looks pretty slack or camera angle?

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/05/2...replacement-full-suspension-xc-mountain-bike/









Pretty killer looking bike.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Looks like another modified single pivot, a la Spark, ASRc, Scalpel, Oiz, Hei Hei DL, etc.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

RS VR6 said:


> Looks pretty slack or camera angle?
> 
> https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/05/2...replacement-full-suspension-xc-mountain-bike/
> 
> ...


People are so focused on suspension design, which thankfully is pretty good across the board these days. Yet they are missing the advances being made in race bike geometry.

For myself I got my RP23 Pushed again on my second Jet 9. That and the CVA suspension is set it-and-forget it. However I'm disappointed that there's no reliable platform anywhere for the fork. The Brain has gotten bad reviews from everyone I know who's raced it on an S-Works Epic. The lockout on my Lefty just isn't fast or reliable enough. This is what bothers me most in hammering uphill. I'll be converting to a PBR this summer before hitting the Breck Epic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

Is that a Debonair can on the MMR? I've always been surprised they aren't more common on XC bikes considering the low level of sag we run. Seems like a way to get more small bump compliance.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

chomxxo said:


> The lockout on my Lefty just isn't fast or reliable enough.


I have a PBR on mine and hate having to remove my hand from the bar to change modes. I'm at the point where I only lock on longer sections without technical and leaving it open all other times. My friend never locks his, so we are going to trade forks (both al models). It's rare that I feel I need it locked though anymore, to be honest. It's an F-Si, so no need to worry about the shock...


----------



## erik$ (May 16, 2006)

I had a debonair on my Tallboy 2 and it made the bike sit too low in the travel. The TB2 has a slack seat tube as well, which made it even worse. Good on the downhills and for trail riding, but not for racing. The port for equalizing air chambers is located further down in the travel than for non debonairs, it seems.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Sabine Spitz joining the modified single pivot club on her WiaWis.










Also, note that she has no lockout. I guess she's not racing, per some other posters. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Sabine Spitz joining the modified single pivot club on her WiaWis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting choice of Rocket Ron front, Thunder Burt rear. I've considered going with that but the difference in traction is pretty stark, it's pretty much the most aggressive XC racing tire paired with the fastest XC racing tire.

Racing Ralph rear bundles well with Rocket Ron front, you lose a little climbing and braking traction vs two Rocket Rons, but hopefully roll faster.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Sabine Spitz joining the modified single pivot club on her WiaWis.
> 
> Also, note that she has no lockout. I guess she's not racing, per some other posters.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Apparently WiaWis stands for "Winning in Action, Winning in Spirit" and the parent company for the brand is a South Korean archery company called "Win & Win".

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/05/2...type-mountain-bike-plus-indergands-focus-o1e/

There's plenty of win in that name.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Sabine Spitz joining the modified single pivot club on her WiaWis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see a lockout leaver on that shock.....


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> I see a lockout leaver on that shock.....


Yes, but no remote.



chilla13 said:


> As much as I love my Yeti ASRc, the fact that it comes without a remote lockout option for the rear shock is plain stupid. Now I find myself fumbling at the shock to manually lock it in every race. It's annoying.
> Yeti says they don't see the necessity of a lockout at all. Like LMN said: they probably don't do any XC racing...


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Yes, but no remote.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I think we all agree locking from remote is safer, faster and more reliable. We'll have to wait to see Spitz in action with that bike, but if they don't add a remote for WC's is indeed plain stupid.

Edit: Photo seems to be from a race, so I guess she was racing without remote lockout...


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

TDLover said:


> I think we all agree locking from remote is safer, faster and more reliable. We'll have to wait to see Spitz in action with that bike, but if they don't add a remote for WC's is indeed plain stupid.
> 
> Edit: Photo seems to be from a race, so I guess she was racing without remote lockout...


It's her bike from the NMNM WC.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Sabine Spitz joining the modified single pivot club on her WiaWis.
> Also, note that she has no lockout. I guess she's not racing, per some other posters.


Eggbeaters too. How unprofessional. Doesn't she read the internets?


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Interesting that Schurter chose to race a hardtail last weekend. It's a little maddening, considering that in my opinion, he has built for him now (after many miscues in the past) just about the perfect full-suspension XCO race bike:

Nino Schurter 2017 Bike Check: Scott Spark RC

It's got the most modern geometry, including slack head angle and an efficient suspension redesign. Racing a hardtail didn't get him separation from the pack, and in fact it was a closer race this time compared to the season opener. There's just something about the feel of a hardtail that defies logical analysis; some racers just feel faster on a hardtail, even if they aren't.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Interesting that Schurter chose to race a hardtail last weekend. It's a little maddening, considering that in my opinion, he has built for him now (after many miscues in the past) just about the perfect full-suspension XCO race bike:
> 
> Nino Schurter 2017 Bike Check: Scott Spark RC
> 
> It's got the most modern geometry, including slack head angle and an efficient suspension redesign. Racing a hardtail didn't get him separation from the pack, and in fact it was a closer race this time compared to the season opener. There's just something about the feel of a hardtail that defies logical analysis; some racers just feel faster on a hardtail, even if they aren't.


Most racers have a hardtail only for Albstadt. I know for Catharine, Albstadt and Sea Otter (and she would have race a FS at Sea Otter if she had brought hers) are the only race all season that she will use a hardtail for.

And give the racers credit. They spend a lot more time testing then what you think. Most are very aware advantages and disadvantages of their choices.


----------



## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> Sabine Spitz joining the modified single pivot club on her WiaWis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Racing WCs is pretty different from participating in domestic amateur races. Most of my races are decided on the obligatory 3 to 5 minute fireroad climb. 
Another point is that Sabine is really not well known for her explosive out of the saddle sprinting.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

chilla13 said:


> Racing WCs is pretty different from participating in domestic amateur races. Most of my races are decided on the obligatory 3 to 5 minute fireroad climb.
> Another point is that Sabine is really not well known for her explosive out of the saddle sprinting.


Just shows that race courses vary from location to location.

The 30min Wednesday night series race I did last week was the first race I've done in years that had ANY fire road climbing.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> Just shows that race courses vary from location to location.
> 
> The 30min Wednesday night series race I did last week was the first race I've done in years that had ANY fire road climbing.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


True. Also true that speccing a full suspension bike with a dual remote lockout doesn't give you any disadvantages. 
Maybe I just don't like that the guys at Yeti made the decision that nobody needs a remote lockout. (And that Fox doesn't offer a remote kit to convert the shock...)


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

chomxxo said:


> Interesting that Schurter chose to race a hardtail last weekend. It's a little maddening, considering that in my opinion, he has built for him now (after many miscues in the past) just about the perfect full-suspension XCO race bike:
> 
> Nino Schurter 2017 Bike Check: Scott Spark RC
> 
> It's got the most modern geometry, including slack head angle and an efficient suspension redesign. Racing a hardtail didn't get him separation from the pack, and in fact it was a closer race this time compared to the season opener. There's just something about the feel of a hardtail that defies logical analysis; some racers just feel faster on a hardtail, even if they aren't.


Last year Nino raced exclusively on his 29er Spark RC to get ready for the Olympics. Scott sold out of the 2017 Spark RC 29ers last season as well. This year without the Olympic pressure, Nino can experiment a little and switch bikes a little without fear of screwing up his Gold medal dream. I'm sure Scott appreciates the win and advertisement for the hardtail Scale 29er RC as well. I bet Nino's Scale RC barely weighed over 18 pounds. All those well heeled amateur racers who bought the Spark RC last season may want to add a Scale RC to their arsenal this year.


----------



## durkind (Jul 8, 2005)

Any one know what Van Der Poel was riding?


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

durkind said:


> Any one know what Van Der Poel was riding?


He was one of the few on a full suspension bike this past weekend. Nino and Anton Cooper were on hardtails.


----------



## durkind (Jul 8, 2005)

Stonerider said:


> He was one of the few on a full suspension bike this past weekend. Nino and Anton Cooper were on hardtails.


Brand?


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Stonerider said:


> All those well heeled amateur racers who bought the Spark RC last season may want to add a Scale RC to their arsenal this year.


This reasoning I can accept  I chuckle to myself every time I see someone with gumwall tires at races these days.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

durkind said:


> Brand?


Steven's? That's what he raced last year (Hardtail) and what he races in Cross...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Loch (Apr 29, 2011)

carlostruco said:


> Steven's? That's what he raced last year (Hardtail) and what he races in Cross...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm guessing it's this one.

https://www.stevensbikes.de/2017/index.php?bik_id=335&cou=US&lang=en_US


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Pinkbike and Bikerumor have been doing a bit more coverage of the XC World Cup races this year.

This bike check includes a look at Mathieu Van Der Poel's Stevens bike from Albstadt, although it's his hardtail rather than the full suspension bike he raced on:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/cross-country-bike-checks-from-albstadt-world-cup.html

This follow up article looks at some of the other bikes too:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/more-bike-checks-from-the-albstadt-world-cup-xc.html

Bikerumor had a look at some of the more unique bits and pieces at the race:

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/05/29/world-cup-randoms-unique-gear-oddities-spotted-around-race/

The idea of an add on rubber top tube guard to protect a carbon fibre frame in a crash seems like a good one. These are Skean rubber top tube guards that stretch into place.










Having a dedicated frame stop (as seen on Canyon bikes for example) to stop the bars hitting the top tube in the first place would likely still be better but this could help if you don't have that.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

WR304 said:


> The idea of an add on rubber top tube guard to protect a carbon fibre frame in a crash seems like a good one. These are Skean rubber top tube guards that stretch into place.


Long story short, that's why I am on grip shift. It allows the bars to come around and clear the top tube. A lesson learned from someone else who smashed the top tube of the same model bike with thumb shifters.


----------



## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

chilla13 said:


> Racing WCs is pretty different from participating in domestic amateur races. Most of my races are decided on the obligatory 3 to 5 minute fireroad climb.
> Another point is that Sabine is really not well known for her explosive out of the saddle sprinting.


This is what I hate about races around my parts. There's always the 200-300' fire road hammer, because that happens in real mountain biking like, never.

I call it the 'let's make the dirt roadies happy' sectiob.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I guess I have less of an issue with fireroad climbs. Sure, I like singletrack, but I also like climbing. And yes, I hammer climbs on my trail bike as much as I do my XC bike. Just slower on a 130mm FS, 31 pound bike.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

mattyice said:


> This is what I hate about races around my parts. There's always the 200-300' fire road hammer, because that happens in real mountain biking like, never.
> 
> I call it the 'let's make the dirt roadies happy' sectiob.


Eh, a fit racer can go fast on anything. Not many top XC racers don't ride (or often race) road or gravel as well.

Around here, the gravel and/or pavement isn't to make "dirt roadies" happy - it's not like those sections can give a win to a poor bike handler - they allow for separation via climbing ability and/or anaerobic power before hitting the singletrack, which is often necessary with big fields.

It doesn't have to be 100% singletrack to be "real mountain biking".


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> Eh, a fit racer can go fast on anything. Not many top XC racers don't ride (or often race) road or gravel as well.
> 
> Around here, the gravel and/or pavement isn't to make "dirt roadies" happy - it's not like those sections can give a win to a poor bike handler - they allow for separation via climbing ability and/or anaerobic power before hitting the singletrack, which is often necessary with big fields.
> 
> It doesn't have to be 100% singletrack to be "real mountain biking".


The average Enduro course seems to be 50% or less singletrack, yet somehow they've laid claim to the title of "real" mountain biking.

If 80% or more of each race day is spent on fire roads, I want nothing to do with it.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

tommyrod74 said:


> Eh, a fit racer can go fast on anything. Not many top XC racers don't ride (or often race) road or gravel as well.
> 
> Around here, the gravel and/or pavement isn't to make "dirt roadies" happy - it's not like those sections can give a win to a poor bike handler - they allow for separation via climbing ability and/or anaerobic power before hitting the singletrack, which is often necessary with big fields.
> 
> It doesn't have to be 100% singletrack to be "real mountain biking".


Sure, they happen in everyday riding on every day bikes but it's not like you get brownie points for blitzing one.

I do get the point of them but if it is for the sole purpose of who can hold a 300watt slug for 300' you can do that with tame single track just as easily

They should just call it the 'who hates their tires more' segment.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

mattyice said:


> Sure, they happen in everyday riding on every day bikes but it's not like you get brownie points for blitzing one.
> 
> I do get the point of them but if it is for the sole purpose of who can hold a 300watt slug for 300' you can do that with tame single track just as easily
> 
> They should just call it the 'who hates their tires more' segment.


Where do you guys live?

I prefer single track as well, but where I live there isn't much, at least not comparable to the amount of fire roads we have.

Big races usually involve around 50% fire roads at least, because imagine having 600 riders on singletrack.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

But, you can't pass effectively on a single track climb, even if it did test the legs the same way. 

I love single track, but the bet race courses aren't the best riding trails (for an XC length event). 

We hae hundreds of people on course at the same time at our XC races... you have to engineer in place to allow for passing or everyone gets pissed and has a terrible time.


----------



## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

I prefer technical singletrack as well, but there need to be places for passing or it's not a race, it's just gridlock. Some trails are technical with passing opportunities, but most technical trails in my area have no passing opportunities at all.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

There are usually plenty of places where the trail widens out significantly, as the trails were built on old logging road grades in many cases. 

On the local race course, the steepest portion of the climb has two options; you can go right or left at a fork in the trail. They are both similar in length and grade and I'm not sure that either is faster than the other, but they give you an option to pass at the start of a 25-30% grade covered in loose rocks.


----------



## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> There are usually plenty of places where the trail widens out significantly, as the trails were built on old logging road grades in many cases.
> 
> On the local race course, the steepest portion of the climb has two options; you can go right or left at a fork in the trail. They are both similar in length and grade and I'm not sure that either is faster than the other, but they give you an option to pass at the start of a 25-30% grade covered in loose rocks.


Our local trail organization is committed to preventing trail braiding and closes off alternative options, I really wish we had more A-line/B-line decisions on trails - not just for racing but as a way to retain technical difficulty while also providing a slower but easier option for newer riders.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

scottg said:


> Our local trail organization is committed to preventing trail braiding and closes off alternative options, I really wish we had more A-line/B-line decisions on trails - not just for racing but as a way to retain technical difficulty while also providing a slower but easier option for newer riders.


When I hear the term trail braiding, I think of places like the desert southwest where people build little shortcuts around technical features.

Here, there is nothing to be gained by going left or right. It just allows people more space, and in terms of trail "damage", well, it's a bunch of decomposing rock on each trail, with some trees in the middle between them. The total length, before they rejoin, is about 50m.

Neither side is particularly technical. Just very steep, with loose rocks and roots.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

TDLover said:


> Where do you guys live?
> 
> I prefer single track as well, but where I live there isn't much, at least not comparable to the amount of fire roads we have.
> 
> Big races usually involve around 50% fire roads at least, because imagine having 600 riders on singletrack.


Gonna be more than 300w heading up those 300' initial climbs  I actually look forward to starting the race on a climb, it's much safer than a mad scamper towards the singletrack funnel, and definitely tames those guys quicker who are on a 5-minute adrenaline high.

Why would you have 600 riders on singletrack at the same time? The state series race I do have that total number of attendees, but they're broken into categories. Typically you're going to want no more than 30 per category, and yes several cats may be racing on the trail at once, but not all of them at the same time.


----------



## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

I normally like singletrack climbing way more than fire/jeep/logging roads. In Texas, the climby races are mostly on rocky, ledgy trails where there is usually enough room to pass somewhere up the climb. The Park City Point-to-Point is one of the very few ultra-endurance with almost all singletrack riding so I signed up for it this year. But having ridden those trails a bunch, I'm wondering where passing opportunities are gonna be and how often. Granted, it's a long race so seconds don't matter as much, but still, you don't wanna get behind somebody struggling up a long, narrow climb. Hopefully, in a race this long, people will be more amenable to letting you by?


----------



## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

BmanInTheD said:


> The Park City Point-to-Point is one of the very few ultra-endurance with almost all singletrack riding so I signed up for it this year. But having ridden those trails a bunch, I'm wondering where passing opportunities are gonna be and how often. Granted, it's a long race so seconds don't matter as much, but still, you don't wanna get behind somebody struggling up a long, narrow climb. Hopefully, in a race this long, people will be more amenable to letting you by?


I did it and there were NO places to pass on that first loop (don't know if it's the same start every year). It was incredibly frustrating. I only do hundies with at least 70% singletrack, but on that one the singletrack starts at mile 2, with maybe one good spot to pass per mile for the first 10 miles. Get a good warmup so you can get to the front on the pavement. The pavement is downhill and narrow, so even passing there is a bit sketchy. It opens later, but by then you've lots tons of time if you get behind anyone slower.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Absalon...broken clavicle...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> The average Enduro course seems to be 50% or less singletrack, yet somehow they've laid claim to the title of "real" mountain biking.
> 
> If 80% or more of each race day is spent on fire roads, I want nothing to do with it.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I don't know what the 'average' enduro course is, but our most recent one used 0.29 mile of gravel road in a 19.1 mile route. That's pretty typical for us.


----------



## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

euro-trash said:


> I did it and there were NO places to pass on that first loop (don't know if it's the same start every year). It was incredibly frustrating. I only do hundies with at least 70% singletrack, but on that one the singletrack starts at mile 2, with maybe one good spot to pass per mile for the first 10 miles. Get a good warmup so you can get to the front on the pavement. The pavement is downhill and narrow, so even passing there is a bit sketchy. It opens later, but by then you've lots tons of time if you get behind anyone slower.


Thanks for the advice but I'm a 57-yr-old flatlander from Dallas that's just gonna get in the 8-9 hour group and try to finish in a reasonable amount of time. It'll probably be a bit easier to pass some of those folks. Did a 6-hour race a couple of weeks ago but only had about 3k climbing in 64 miles.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> The average Enduro course seems to be 50% or less singletrack, yet somehow they've laid claim to the title of "real" mountain biking.


Where did you get that number from? All the Enduro's I have raced are primarily single track. The one this weekend has over 20km of single track climbing alone.


----------



## Walt Disney's Frozen Head (Jan 9, 2008)

maybe he's including the climbing?


----------



## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

chomxxo said:


> Gonna be more than 300w heading up those 300' initial climbs  I actually look forward to starting the race on a climb, it's much safer than a mad scamper towards the singletrack funnel, and definitely tames those guys quicker who are on a 5-minute adrenaline high.
> 
> Why would you have 600 riders on singletrack at the same time? The state series race I do have that total number of attendees, but they're broken into categories. Typically you're going to want no more than 30 per category, and yes several cats may be racing on the trail at once, but not all of them at the same time.


The best I got out of my sport class sass is avg 333w x 385' x .78mi

and that was a fire road and I hated it. And it hated my tires.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> Where did you get that number from? All the Enduro's I have raced are primarily single track. The one this weekend has over 20km of single track climbing alone.


All of the Enduro courses I've seen have almost exclusively fire road climbs. The CES is like that in most cases. I haven't taken a look at all of their courses, but I know Toro is, as are the southern CA races. The Pisgah Enduro is a mix of shuttles and road climbs. Looking at my old home town of Hood River, 100% of the uphill transfers are on roads. Only exception is after the last stage, back to the parking area. Up the road at Ski Bowl on Mt. Hood, the Enduro course is a mix of fire road and chair lift climbing.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> Absalon...broken clavicle...


Bugger!


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> All of the Enduro courses I've seen have almost exclusively fire road climbs. The CES is like that in most cases. I haven't taken a look at all of their courses, but I know Toro is, as are the southern CA races. The Pisgah Enduro is a mix of shuttles and road climbs. Looking at my old home town of Hood River, 100% of the uphill transfers are on roads. Only exception is after the last stage, back to the parking area. Up the road at Ski Bowl on Mt. Hood, the Enduro course is a mix of fire road and chair lift climbing.


Spot on. My son in law races pro enduro, competed this past weekend there (placed 8th after a bad crash...said the trails loose as ice), and confirms your assessment. Next CES stop Mendocino, another pedalfest, more XC than enduro. 6600 feet on roads.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Neon yellow Northwave Extreme XC and Shimano S-Phyre XC9s are the Mavic Fury of 2017, by the way. 

Just re-watched Albstadt, and three quarters of the shoes in the first couple rows were yellow.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Neon yellow Northwave Extreme XC and Shimano S-Phyre XC9s are the Mavic Fury of 2017, by the way.
> 
> Just re-watched Albstadt, and three quarters of the shoes in the first couple rows were yellow.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Shimano's at $400.00 usd, didn't they go overboard?


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> All of the Enduro courses I've seen have almost exclusively fire road climbs. The CES is like that in most cases. I haven't taken a look at all of their courses, but I know Toro is, as are the southern CA races. The Pisgah Enduro is a mix of shuttles and road climbs. Looking at my old home town of Hood River, 100% of the uphill transfers are on roads. Only exception is after the last stage, back to the parking area. Up the road at Ski Bowl on Mt. Hood, the Enduro course is a mix of fire road and chair lift climbing.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I guess things are different in BC.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> Neon yellow Northwave Extreme XC and Shimano S-Phyre XC9s are the Mavic Fury of 2017, by the way.
> 
> Just re-watched Albstadt, and three quarters of the shoes in the first couple rows were yellow.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


It may seem weird, but I hate the colors more and more everyday...too much neon going on right now...

The only shoes I'm liking are the Giro Empire...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

My local enduro series is mostly fireroad climbing.

Without wide fireroad, passing would suck. I'm the slow guy and my FTP is about 300w at sub 150 pounds. Safe to say the lead guys are sprinting FAR harder than that. You need passing opportunities. The 8 hour series I race had about 200 bikes starting, without the starting loop skipping the single track I would have been stuck behind a bunch of unskilled 1 lappers that sprinted away when I have 8 hours to race. Instead I was able to work my way up through the pack during the fireroad climb before hitting the enduro decent (where lots of people walked).


----------



## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I did one local enduro and we climbed mostly on a logging road. My friend did on last year and one of the top riders was walking a steep portion of a climb, when almost everyone was riding. He said there is plenty of time, and he saves his legs for the timed segments, where it counts.


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

What am I missing here with regards to Enduro? The climbs are simply transfers much like rally car racing who cares if it's fire road or singletrack? You HAVE to get to your start in a specified time but it isn't timed, save your energy for the downhills which are timed and 99% singletrack.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Rivet said:


> What am I missing here with regards to Enduro?


Nothing?


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

MattMay said:


> Next CES stop Mendocino, another pedalfest, more XC than enduro. 6600 feet on roads.


It would be more XC if they timed the transitions and had no gaps between stages.

To me, Enduro's point of difference was it's similarly to a day of downhilling, but you have to get to the start lines under your own steam and by a cut off time. Downhill means starts are much higher than finishes. That means climbing. Because the dh tracks are lift or shuttle serviced, that means fire roads are the easiest way to pedal.

I've never raced an Enduro, but I have photographed them and it's weird popping out the bottom of a section and having people look at me like I'm an alien on my rigid single speed. They're not too know we use the same tracks for our xc races.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

In case you missed it: Greg Minaar's World Cup DH win on a 29er, another nail in the coffin for "lively" 27.5.


----------



## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

chomxxo said:


> In case you missed it: Greg Minaar's World Cup DH win on a 29er, another nail in the coffin for "lively" 27.5.


My lbs is a pretty good guy and a great mechanic but he swears 29 is on the way out in favor of 27.5. I pointed out this same thing to him, even dh is looking like 29 may have some benefits, and certainly xc is almost 29 exclusively. I've never ridden 27.5, but it would be hard to sell me on one


----------



## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

^^^ Do they only sell Giant bikes?


----------



## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

No actually he does lynskey, fuji, blue and qbp brands. It's a great shop I just disagree with himon this one.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> In case you missed it: Greg Minaar's World Cup DH win on a 29er, another nail in the coffin for "lively" 27.5.


Gwin won on his 27.5 Tues last Sunday. I guess the 27.5 ain't dead yet.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

I know this isn't' the WC DH equipment thread, but I noticed that some WC DHer's are running rotors that look like Ashima Air rotors. I think Alexandre Fayolle are using those rotors...or something similar. The cutouts on the friction ring part are pretty big. I never thought a rotor like that can handle DH racing. Lol...or maybe they just aren't using the brakes that much.

Fayolle's rotor. Looks like an Air Rotor. He's on some Trickstuff brakes.


----------



## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

RS VR6 said:


> Gwin won on his 27.5 Tues last Sunday. I guess the 27.5 ain't dead yet.


No way. I think Minaar is old enough probably to have crushed that course on 26x24. Run whatcha brung. He feels good on it, let him rock it. I think the only problem with a 29 DH bike is that any DH bike has an inherently long wheel base with long stays. I don't care what wheel size you put on it, don't make the wheelbase any longer and don't make the stays longer to accommodate the bigger tires and it's all gravy. So the industry can keep trying to sell us 2 different bikes for 5 different disciplines.

Edit: I have Alligator rotors on my Banshee (the buzz saw ones) 180x160 and they stop like a mother trucker. Very open design. They will still burn you tho...


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

mattyice said:


> No way. I think Minaar is old enough probably to have crushed that course on 26x24. Run whatcha brung. He feels good on it, let him rock it. I think the only problem with a 29 DH bike is that any DH bike has an inherently long wheel base with long stays. I don't care what wheel size you put on it, don't make the wheelbase any longer and don't make the stays longer to accommodate the bigger tires and it's all gravy. So the industry can keep trying to sell us 2 different bikes for 5 different disciplines.
> 
> Edit: I have Alligator rotors on my Banshee (the buzz saw ones) 180x160 and they stop like a mother trucker. Very open design. They will still burn you tho...


I think short chainstays have become a rhetorical argument that's not fully thought through. What makes you think that a longer bike isn't in fact better? According to the usual assumption, it's supposedly more maneuverable through tight turns. But you lean the bike to turn as much as you turn it.

Watch some WC DH videos from around 1998. I'll bet the first thing you notice is that the bikes seem to be too short, and it's limiting the speed of the riders. See: Mondraker Forward Geometry.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

chomxxo said:


> I think short chainstays have become a rhetorical argument that's not fully thought through. What makes you think that a longer bike isn't in fact better? According to the usual assumption, it's supposedly more maneuverable through tight turns. But you lean the bike to turn as much as you turn it.
> 
> Watch some WC DH videos from around 1998. I'll bet the first thing you notice is that the bikes seem to be too short, and it's limiting the speed of the riders. See: Mondraker Forward Geometry.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I never said long is bad, just the longer you go you need to be that much stronger in the hips and that much more committed to throwing it in a corner. Long is perfect for DH, too long and you're trying to throw around boat.

I just don't think anyone is ever going to find a quantifiable magic bullet proving how superior 'their' particular tire format of choice is. I think both tires are here to stay and who cares what you got. Bikes are fun.

I think bike geo has more to do with that 'Lively' feel. Honestly I notice almost no difference 26-27.5. I notice 29 geometry. 27.5+ plus is a party in every format I've ridden it in. Both the Fuse and Hightower felt very frisky. Not bad for 3" tires.

DH'ing is probably as much mental as it is physical ability, so if you feel good on something 26-29, run it. Run the hell out of it. Plus from the back tire of your bike with 200mm x 200mm, is the extra Inch and a half of wheel diameter a game changer? Probably not. So you get 2mm of extra contact and maybe a fraction of a degree able to glance of that sharp edge at 20mph. Yeah, totally the tires and not the shocks. (I don't know what the actual scientific contact patch difference is, and I really don't care)


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

It's a fun topic, one that fills me with immature glee, I'll admit, since we are in fact reaching a conclusion to the wheel size debate, with both World Cup XC and downhill set to become exclusively 29er FS after so much to suggest otherwise in the interim. "Soon your journey to the 29 will be complete... "

This is more about how humans think and less about being right. Who knows, after the dust is settled, it may be kicked up again by 32" wheels, and then 36ers. The wheel is the most fundamental part of the bicycle, anecdotes throughout history like the high-wheeler suggest that we might want to make them even bigger.



mattyice said:


> I never said long is bad, just the longer you go you need to be that much stronger in the hips and that much more committed to throwing it in a corner. Long is perfect for DH, too long and you're trying to throw around boat.
> 
> I just don't think anyone is ever going to find a quantifiable magic bullet proving how superior 'their' particular tire format of choice is. I think both tires are here to stay and who cares what you got. Bikes are fun.
> 
> ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## miles e (Jan 16, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> anecdotes throughout history like the high-wheeler suggest that we might want to make them even bigger.


You do realize that was done for the purpose of gearing (or more accurately, lack thereof), right?


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

miles e said:


> You do realize that was done for the purpose of gearing (or more accurately, lack thereof), right?


Yes I do. I'm just saying, think bigger. It's been done long before our time. Gary Fisher has already told the tale many times of why we ended up with 26" wheels for so long, but people hold onto what they know tighter, the longer they have it.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

More evidence today that the wheel wars are over. https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/06/2...to-big-wheels-with-xc-race-focused-anthem-29/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bikeguy0 (Aug 5, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> More evidence today that the wheel wars are over. https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/06/2...to-big-wheels-with-xc-race-focused-anthem-29/
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very interesting conversation. I've always raced on 29ers both hard tail and 100mm FS. I just picked up a 27.5+ FS 130/120mm bike that I set up just under 25 lbs and I now also picked up a 27.5 Hard tail just over 20 lbs. I can tell you that I do not notice any difference in roll over on the 27.5 x 2.35 tires vs a 29er and the bike handles so much better in tight trees, switch backs, accelerations, etc. The hard tail is also set up with a 50mm dropper post.

I don't think there is one answer as to what is better. I feel much more comfortable and quicker on both my 27.5 bikes than I did on 29ers and I am 6'1". I think it really just comes down to what floats your boat and the style of rider you are. Some people will feel more confident on a 29er some on a 27.5. I think they both have their place.

I will say that no matter what I am never riding without a dropper post again. I just raced in Winter Park last weekend on the HT / Dropper combo and while it isn't as fast as a full suspension would be in some circumstances I can't imagine not having a dropper. You get pitched forward, ride higher on the bike, can't move the bike underneath you, etc. I am baffled by the folks that say they don't feel any difference with a dropper. If you aren't more confident and going faster with a dropper than you're doing it wrong. Especially with a 50mm drop version. 100 or 125 is just more than you need for an XC bike and you end up dropping it too far and then messing around with it and losing time. With the 50mm I can drop it, get through the rock garden and then leave it down and still put power down before the next rock garden or quick downhill.


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

I have a 125 dropper with the 50 MM position AKA Fox DOSS. There is no race course where I need it unless it is enduro. I started observing where I used it and needed it in races for an entire year. In the end, I chose to take it off and have left it off for 8 months. 

There was only one instance where I used it and that was a Triple drop that I hucked to flat, which was probably pretty dumb in an XC race anyway (yet fun). I just hang it off the back end and get low. I like a 50mm drop when I start to low speed roll ledges that are 30+ inches and there is limited room to roll and get behind the seat because of the extreme angle. riding off at 15-20 mph, the dropper is not needed.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I'm very supportive of dropper posts. But when I am going downhill flying by full suspension bikes with droppers in a race with a rigid post on a hardtail...I just don't need it anywhere I am racing. Would I descend faster? Absolutely. Is it worth the gain in weight and the loss of money (my budget is limited) for those few seconds? No.

Right now my trail bike has a broken fork, so I have been riding my XC bike when meeting up with friends. There is only one time I can think of where I actually want a dropper, and that is going down an enduro line with a set of doubles that most people roll over, I like to clear it. I can do it, but the seat gets in the way and I usually case the landing. Smarter to just manual it, but I'm not smart...

I would never tell anyone not to use one. If you like it, run it.


----------



## bikeguy0 (Aug 5, 2007)

The last two responses is what I mean. Yeah there are folks that can push the limits on a rigid post but I just don't understand why. The 250 gram difference from my post is not slowing me down uphill. Getting bucked by a saddle in my ass for every rock garden is slowing me down. To each their own, I'll just never understand. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> More evidence today that the wheel wars are over. https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/06/2...to-big-wheels-with-xc-race-focused-anthem-29/
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And now the DH guys are switching back to 27.5... 
https://dirtmountainbike.com/videos/mike-jones-valleys-episode-2.html

Had a chat with Katerina Nash this weekend about 27.5 vs. 29. For the Epic ride races she has been racing exclusively on her 29er, however she feels if she were to go back to racing WC XC she would be back on a 27.5. Always interesting to talk to racers who aren't forced into a wheel size by their sponsors marketing plan.

I am actually getting a new 29er Enduro bike, the Orbea Rallon. I am excited to try it out.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

My wife (who is certainly not a WC racer... but a fast regional) loves 27.5, after starting on 26 years ago, then moving to several 29ers (S-works bikes of various types, including "women's specific"), and finally 27.5. For XC racing she can't imagine going back to 29. 

But, she's 5' 2"... 29ers were always a bit of a challenge to get to fit at her size. Some of them, with the right type of stem and a bit shorter fork, worked really well. But, a couple years ago when she was able to move to a custom 27.5 it was like magic. 

We kept (keep) hoping Specialized would start building 100mm travel XC dual suspension bikes in 27.5 for the smaller women's sizes. Heck even the HT. (They are the main bike our shop sells) But that's not likely. Even as a taller person (6' 1") I wouldn't mind trying a 100mm 27.5 dualie for general racing and riding. But, I'm pretty content on the 29ers for now. 

Orbea has done a great job making HT and short travel bikes in 27.5 for the smaller sizes. Yeti as well, despite dropping the hard tail for the time being.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

A friend of mine is trying to sell his Orbea Oiz from last season that he replaced with the Scott Spark WC. But mentioned at the last race that he thinks he's more comfortable on on the smaller wheels on that course. I'm curious to see which bike he chooses for the final race.

Funny enough, I'm about to replace my 130mm trail 650b with a 26" bike soon. I wouldn't mind trying a 27.5 XC bike, but I don't have any short term plans to replace my HT, long term plans are the FS version, so still 29.


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

bikeguy0 said:


> Very interesting conversation. I've always raced on 29ers both hard tail and 100mm FS. I just picked up a 27.5+ FS 130/120mm bike that I set up just under 25 lbs and I now also picked up a 27.5 Hard tail just over 20 lbs. I can tell you that I do not notice any difference in roll over on the 27.5 x 2.35 tires vs a 29er and the bike handles so much better in tight trees, switch backs, accelerations, etc. The hard tail is also set up with a 50mm dropper post.
> 
> I don't think there is one answer as to what is better. I feel much more comfortable and quicker on both my 27.5 bikes than I did on 29ers and I am 6'1". I think it really just comes down to what floats your boat and the style of rider you are. Some people will feel more confident on a 29er some on a 27.5. I think they both have their place.
> 
> I will say that no matter what I am never riding without a dropper post again. I just raced in Winter Park last weekend on the HT / Dropper combo and while it isn't as fast as a full suspension would be in some circumstances I can't imagine not having a dropper. You get pitched forward, ride higher on the bike, can't move the bike underneath you, etc. I am baffled by the folks that say they don't feel any difference with a dropper. If you aren't more confident and going faster with a dropper than you're doing it wrong. Especially with a 50mm drop version. 100 or 125 is just more than you need for an XC bike and you end up dropping it too far and then messing around with it and losing time. With the 50mm I can drop it, get through the rock garden and then leave it down and still put power down before the next rock garden or quick downhill.


Put me in that category of 'doing it wrong' then. I've started using a dropper this year. My target events are XCO and XCM. Last month I took two rides where the remote got jammed and the seat stayed up. I didn't descend any slower on the technical stuff. With the seat down I'm able to explore more positions which seems particularly promising in corners, as in maybe I can eek out a couple more seconds in and out of the corners, but it's going to take a lot more time of riding and testing. The benefits aren't immediately obvious.


----------



## bikeguy0 (Aug 5, 2007)

winters.benjamin said:


> Put me in that category of 'doing it wrong' then. I've started using a dropper this year. My target events are XCO and XCM. Last month I took two rides where the remote got jammed and the seat stayed up. I didn't descend any slower on the technical stuff. With the seat down I'm able to explore more positions which seems particularly promising in corners, as in maybe I can eek out a couple more seconds in and out of the corners, but it's going to take a lot more time of riding and testing. The benefits aren't immediately obvious.


Yeah. That happened to me too at first. Once I learned to do all the things they show you in "how to corner" on a MTB I kept getting faster and faster with the dropper. Like drop your outside heel, twist your hips and shoulders in direction of corner, lower center of gravity, pinch outside knee in to the bike in direction you're turning. It is amazing how much quicker you can go by doing all these things and they all are much more pronounced when your saddle is out of the way. I'm by no means the fastest descender or an expert but it is very clear I'm faster with a dropper.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

bikeguy0 said:


> Yeah. That happened to me too at first. Once I learned to do all the things they show you in "how to corner" on a MTB I kept getting faster and faster with the dropper. Like drop your outside heel, twist your hips and shoulders in direction of corner, lower center of gravity, pinch outside knee in to the bike in direction you're turning. It is amazing how much quicker you can go by doing all these things and they all are much more pronounced when your saddle is out of the way. I'm by no means the fastest descender or an expert but it is very clear I'm faster with a dropper.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is true, especially with long legs where there's a lot of saddle to bar drop. However I want a dropper that drops and extends with the push of a button, I don't like to have to sit into it.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

bikeguy0 said:


> The last two responses is what I mean. Yeah there are folks that can push the limits on a rigid post but I just don't understand why.





bikeguy0 said:


> I'm by no means the fastest descender or an expert


Just think on that a while...

(FYI, the guy I finished behind in my last race also races Pro Enduro...he didn't have a dropper post either)


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

The new Epic FS. Haven't found full geometry numbers but obviously going more LS, but the weight savings are very impressive for the frame. Not a RS fan though.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/07/0...-bike-gets-faster-smoother-whole-lot-lighter/


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

kevbikemad said:


> The new Epic FS. Haven't found full geometry numbers but obviously going more LS, but the weight savings are very impressive for the frame. Not a RS fan though.
> 
> https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/07/0...-bike-gets-faster-smoother-whole-lot-lighter/


Check this thread. Lots of details. I'd say there was a net zero effect in HA due to the reduced offset, and based upon the last year/this year frame geometry overlay shown in the video, but it should be a more certain feel in corners. Bold, and yet measured move towards some of Chris Porter's research.

http://forums.mtbr.com/specialized/2018-s-works-epic-fsr-changes-rumors-1033168-4.html#post13231036


----------



## bikeguy0 (Aug 5, 2007)

Sidewalk said:


> Just think on that a while...
> 
> (FYI, the guy I finished behind in my last race also races Pro Enduro...he didn't have a dropper post either)


Yeah cool guy. Its because I have a dropper that I'm not the fastest.... There is a reason that downhillers and enduro riders have dropper posts and every bike handling clinic has you drop your post during the class.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

bikeguy0 said:


> Yeah cool guy. Its because I have a dropper that I'm not the fastest.... There is a reason that downhillers and enduro riders have dropper posts and every bike handling clinic has you drop your post during the class.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think that was his point. The question is whether you will lose time on downhills using gear that will gain you time on uphills. And if you aren't already pushing the limits of what your frame can handle (i.e., one of the fastest) then you might not have a relevant contribution to make. It's not an insult.

If there is anywhere in a XCO or XCM race where mental strength is tested, it's in climbing. Everything is maxed out for me and if I am doing what I'm supposed to be doing (i.e., not being a *****) then I'm at my limit and fighting my demons at the top of the last few climbs. And let me tell you that I don't want one ounce, or gram, of this fight going to waste. So providing that no one is going to make time on me on a descent, then I'm going to choose gear that keeps me fast on climbs.

I'm still going to test the dropper setup. I might find over time that it helps in the corners. But as I said earlier, the benefits aren't immediately obvious.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

winters.benjamin said:


> I don't think that was his point. The question is whether you will lose time on downhills using gear that will gain you time on uphills. And if you aren't already pushing the limits of what your frame can handle (i.e., one of the fastest) then you might not have a relevant contribution to make. It's not an insult.
> 
> If there is anywhere in a XCO or XCM race where mental strength is tested, it's in climbing. Everything is maxed out for me and if I am doing what I'm supposed to be doing (i.e., not being a *****) then I'm at my limit and fighting my demons at the top of the last few climbs. And let me tell you that I don't want one ounce, or gram, of this fight going to waste. So providing that no one is going to make time on me on a descent, then I'm going to choose gear that keeps me fast on climbs.


No skin in this game but just to play devils advocate consider this, according to at least one power calculator an extra 200 grams will cost you just 1.2 seconds on a 10 minute/10% grade climb while kicking out 350 watts. Could someone gain back more than 2 seconds on a 5 minute downhill by using a dropper? I don't know for sure but I'd have to guess yes.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> No skin in this game but just to play devils advocate consider this, according to at least one power calculator an extra 200 grams will cost you just 1.2 seconds on a 10 minute/10% grade climb while kicking out 350 watts. Could someone gain back more than 2 seconds on a 5 minute downhill by using a dropper? I don't know for sure but I'd have to guess yes.


The equation is more complex then that. If we just focus on the weight then the dropper is pretty well a no brainer.

The concern is extra decision making. A lot of XC racing involves short descents into steep punchy climbs. In those conditions a dropper can create a situation where you get it wrong. All ready at the book ends of a descent you are changing gears and suspension settings, now with a dropper you you are also changing seat high. That is a lot going on when you vision is fogged in from lack of oxygen. I know that has been for Catharine the biggest challenge with using a dropper this year.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

winters.benjamin said:


> I don't think that was his point. The question is whether you will lose time on downhills using gear that will gain you time on uphills. And if you aren't already pushing the limits of what your frame can handle (i.e., one of the fastest) then you might not have a relevant contribution to make. It's not an insult.
> 
> If there is anywhere in a XCO or XCM race where mental strength is tested, it's in climbing. Everything is maxed out for me and if I am doing what I'm supposed to be doing (i.e., not being a *****) then I'm at my limit and fighting my demons at the top of the last few climbs. And let me tell you that I don't want one ounce, or gram, of this fight going to waste. So providing that no one is going to make time on me on a descent, then I'm going to choose gear that keeps me fast on climbs.
> 
> I'm still going to test the dropper setup. I might find over time that it helps in the corners. But as I said earlier, the benefits aren't immediately obvious.


When I tested a dropper (and I currently run one on my XC) I found some gains in speed, but big gains in efficiency. I descended at the same speed at a lower heart rate. Similar experience to FS versus HD. Both are similar speeds but one is just easier.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LMN said:


> The equation is more complex then that. If we just focus on the weight then the dropper is pretty well a no brainer.
> 
> The concern is extra decision making. A lot of XC racing involves short descents into steep punchy climbs. In those conditions a dropper can create a situation where you get it wrong. All ready at the book ends of a descent you are changing gears and suspension settings, now with a dropper you you are also changing seat high. That is a lot going on when you vision is fogged in from lack of oxygen. I know that has been for Catharine the biggest challenge with using a dropper this year.


I was thinking the same thing, I'm just a silly weekend warrior and occasional KOM chaser who doesn't yet use a dropper but when I'm chasing a PR and on the limit there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for decision making, like you said, oxygen deprivation and all. I do manage to shift though so perhaps I could learn.

Drops and such are so much easier and safer with the seat lower though so I will have one soon.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

For the overall weekend warrior and that's including a lot of us who race, a dropper post seems to make sense. The 200gr penalty is very negligible and usually the trails are way different than those found in WC circuits. Long climbs, gravel roads and downhills sufficiently long to make use of the dropper post. The pace of those rides is also more casual than in a race where sometimes you can even struggle to shift to the proper gear.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I've found I'm not much faster with the dropper, but am a hell of a lot more comfortable, confident and efficient.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

bikeguy0 said:


> Yeah cool guy. Its because I have a dropper that I'm not the fastest.... There is a reason that downhillers and enduro riders have dropper posts and every bike handling clinic has you drop your post during the class.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Since you failed to read any of my posts, I'll summarize:
-I support dropper post use.
-I have a dropper on my trail bike.
-I'm on a limited budget.

If you still want to argue, go ahead, I can add you to my ignore list pretty easy.


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

LMN said:


> When I tested a dropper (and I currently run one on my XC) I found some gains in speed, but big gains in efficiency. I descended at the same speed at a lower heart rate. Similar experience to FS versus HD. Both are similar speeds but one is just easier.


What is your body doing different w/dropper on XC that keeps it less stressed? In mechanical terms. Are you lower?


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Back on topic.... Langvad using the MT8s vs ??? (SRAM probably?) Haven't usually paid attention to this but this time (1) I couldn't miss the high vis yellow and (2) I'm a little grumpy about my Formula R1s these days.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There are some interesting pictures of new parts in this Pinkbike look at the Andorra World Cup bikes.

In particular are some close up pictures of the new Fox Live Valve suspension.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/cross-country-tech-vallnord-world-cup-2017.html










They also have a bit about the AXS sensor system. Sticking some little squares to your bike is supposed to be worth 2 or 3 seconds per racing minute due to vibration damping? I'm not convinced. That little silver sticker on the swingarm in the picture is supposed to reduce the vibration on Mathias Fluckiger's bike by 26 percent.


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

^ the comments on the PinkBike post are hilarious on the sticker thing. Materials physicists weighing in calling total BS.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

What? After scrolling up to make sure the article wasn't written April 1st, I found this:

AXS Sensor System | Axxios Technology


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

chomxxo said:


> What? After scrolling up to make sure the article wasn't written April 1st, I found this:
> 
> AXS Sensor System | Axxios Technology


My psychic read my palm and agrees with my zodiac, combined with my magnetic bracelets and that tape, I'll win the next WC round!


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Sidewalk said:


> My psychic read my palm and agrees with my zodiac, combined with my magnetic bracelets and that tape, I'll win the next WC round!


MFluck "you want to do what?"

[Axxios Rep] "pay you a few thousand bucks to put this tiny-a$$ sticker on your bike. it's going to [mumble mumble mumble]."

MFluck "a few thousand per sticker? uhhh, you sure you don't want to put like 5 or 6 on there?"


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

winters.benjamin said:


> MFluck "you want to do what?"
> 
> [Axxios Rep] "pay you a few thousand bucks to put this tiny-a$$ sticker on your bike. it's going to [mumble mumble mumble]."
> 
> MFluck "a few thousand per sticker? uhhh, you sure you don't want to put like 5 or 6 on there?"


For the record, if the check clears, I'll put them on my bike too.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

chomxxo said:


> What? After scrolling up to make sure the article wasn't written April 1st, I found this:
> AXS Sensor System | Axxios Technology


Not really much on their web, but after seeing their "selection" of products with their cool technology, I just moved forward. I'm still much much more in skiing world cup, then I will ever be in mtb, so seeing Head skis there, I assume this supercool stuff is what Head markets under Kers. Considering I actually know few things about this Kers joke straight from people deep into Head's racing service, I have feeling bike stuff is very similar... joke and marketing hype but nothnig real and definitely nothing working.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Total joke those axxios sensors, the science behind it is not crap exactly, just taken out of context by this company. Sad thing is some people will still fall from it, remember the power balance wristbands, they sold millions and they are a scam. 

What's interesting is why websites like pinkbike are given them coverage, hopefully they didn't get a check either. What they should do is test them in a scientific manner and exposed them.


----------



## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

TDLover said:


> Total joke those axxios sensors, the science behind it is not crap exactly, just taken out of context by this company. .


That's what I was thinking. So, I emailed the company wanting to learn more about how they purport it to work. They didn't provide details, but they sent me pricing. The kit is 1350 euros!


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Tough call. Do I replace my aluminum fork with a carbon one, or buy a sticker kit?


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Sidewalk said:


> Tough call. Do I replace my aluminum fork with a carbon one, or buy a sticker kit?


No, you've got it wrong. 1350 is what they pay you in exchange for your dignity, erm I mean for using their stickers.


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

euro-trash said:


> That's what I was thinking. So, I emailed the company wanting to learn more about how they purport it to work. They didn't provide details, but they sent me pricing. The kit is 1350 euros!


Electric motor doping is cheaper (at least that's what I've heard).


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

winters.benjamin said:


> No, you've got it wrong. 1350 is what they pay you in exchange for your dignity, erm I mean for using their stickers.


 Smoking deal. I lost my dignity decades ago!



kevbikemad said:


> Electric motor doping is cheaper (at least that's what I've heard).


You can use that spare time from the ban to up your game and save money travel expenses!


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Jaroslav Kulhavy's new 2018 Specialized S-Works Epic:










Yes, that is a 40 tooth chainring. Tremble mortals and despair for your puny thighs can never turn that monster gearing.










A couple of things to note are that the gold XX1 Eagle chain isn't dirty. What you can see on it is the white wax treatment that has been applied to lower friction.

At the back of the bike the stock SRAM XX1 Eagle jockey wheels have been changed to larger ones with more teeth. This is supposed to reduce friction and save a watt or two also.


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

WR304 said:


> Jaroslav Kulhavy's new 2018 Specialized S-Works Epic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seems like Same Gaze can't find an Epic that fits either. The saddle setback is getting crazy. They should run banana seats if they wanna get that far back.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Simon Andreassen's bike has the most normal pro setup of the lot so far.

https://twitter.com/_gotse?lang=en










You can just imagine the discussions they all had about the new bike:

Specialized designer: "we listened to what you guys need to stay competitive on the new rougher World Cup courses for 2017 by slackening the head angle, lengthening the top tube and steepening the seat tube angle on the new Epic! Now you can run a shorter stem and sit further forwards to keep traction on climbs! The suspension is optimised around a 32 tooth chainring.

Team Riders: "That's great. I ride a frame one size smaller than recommended, use a 130mm stem, max height on a 400mm seatpost and have my saddle as far back as it will go with a 40 tooth chainring. No dropper post. Have my bike ready for the race on Sunday. K thx bye. "

Specialized designer: "..."

:lol:


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

WR304 said:


> Team Riders: "That's great. I ride a frame one size smaller than recommended, use a 130mm stem, max height on a 400mm seatpost and have my saddle as far back as it will go with a 40 tooth chainring. No dropper post. Have my bike ready for the race on Sunday. K thx bye. "
> 
> Specialized designer: "..."
> 
> :lol:


I can't think of another team of riders who all ran similar odd setups like this. Even Simon's saddle is set way back in the 90's.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Jaro's stem is actually shorter on the new bike, but only about 10mm. Why he didn't shorten it the first time when he went to 700mm bars is a mystery. With the big chainring I'd say he's trying to limit his smallest gear. With 11 speed he ran a 36t front. In 90 minute XC races, you want to make sure you're going hard all the time. Different than 4 hour stage races like the TDF which have refined the concept of spin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I honestly wonder (and imagine there are some here who know) if Eagle is even needed for these guys in XC, or is it a sponsor mandate?


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Sidewalk said:


> I honestly wonder (and imagine there are some here who know) if Eagle is even needed for these guys in XC, or is it a sponsor mandate?


The very best guys don't need it. But get out of the top 30 and they need the 50.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Sidewalk said:


> is Eagle even needed for these guys in XC


No way.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

WR304 said:


> Simon Andreassen's bike has the most normal pro setup of the lot so far.
> 
> https://twitter.com/_gotse?lang=en
> 
> ...


The insanely steep STA mandates pushing the saddles even further back on the seat posts. They really only lengthened reach by making the seat tube angle steeper.


----------



## Carioca_XC (Dec 30, 2014)

briscoelab said:


> The insanely steep STA mandates pushing the saddles even further back on the seat posts. They really only lengthened reach by making the seat tube angle steeper.


Actually, the Reach is not affected by the seat tube angle, as it is a related to the bottom bracket and the head tube.
"Reach is the horizontal distance between the bottom bracket and the center of the head tube". 
The steeper seat tube angle shortens the Top Tube.


----------



## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

Carioca_XC said:


> Actually, the Reach is not affected by the seat tube angle, as it is a related to the bottom bracket and the head tube.
> "Reach is the horizontal distance between the bottom bracket and the center of the head tube".
> The steeper seat tube angle shortens the Top Tube.


If you randomly set your fore/aft then I suppose it doesn't affect it but a preferred amount behind the bottom bracket will result in a longer effective top tube when comparing two bikes where the top tube length is the same but one has a steeper seat angle.


----------



## Carioca_XC (Dec 30, 2014)

MessagefromTate said:


> If you randomly set your fore/aft then I suppose it doesn't affect it but a preferred amount behind the bottom bracket will result in a longer effective top tube when comparing two bikes where the top tube length is the same but one has a steeper seat angle.


This is exactly what I was thinking. 
If the rider has to push the saddle back with the new geometry so as to have the same fore/aft adjustment, what is the point in changing seat tube angle and reach?
Specialized claims the steeper seat tube is meant to shift the rider weight forward, but if you have to move the saddle back, then, what's the point?


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Carioca_XC said:


> This is exactly what I was thinking.
> If the rider has to push the saddle back with the new geometry so as to have the same fore/aft adjustment, what is the point in changing seat tube angle and reach?
> Specialized claims the steeper seat tube is meant to shift the rider weight forward, but if you have to move the saddle back, then, what's the point?


I think this is confusing reach with ETT measurements. Reach doesn't change with steeper ST angles. ETT might, depending on HT angle.

If Specialized engineered the frame to push weight forward then if you 'need' to move the saddle back, you're de facto saying you don't want a Specialized frame (or you have unruly sized thighs relative to your torso).


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

winters.benjamin said:


> I think this is confusing reach with ETT measurements. Reach doesn't change with steeper ST angles. ETT might, depending on HT angle.
> 
> If Specialized engineered the frame to push weight forward then if you 'need' to move the saddle back, you're de facto saying you don't want a Specialized frame (or you have unruly sized thighs relative to your torso).


It is definitely confusing the two.

Think of it this way:

Reach is basically the amount of top tube in front of the bottom bracket (well, in front of a vertical line drawn through the center of the BB).

Therefore, it's completely independent of seat tube angle.

Top tube length is measured as a horizontal line (parallel to ground) from center of seat tube (thus dependent on seat tube angle) to center of head tube.

Thus:

2 frames can have identical reach BUT different top tube measurements (if seat tube angles differ).

2 frames can have identical top tube measurements BUT different reach measurements (again, if seat tube angles differ).

Therefore:

If you want to set up a new bike to have your contact points in your normal spot relative to each other (i.e. saddle setback from BB, stem length, reach from saddle to grips, etc), you'd be ideally looking for a frame with the same reach dimension - unless seat tube angles are identical, in which case you could go by top tube length.

CAVEAT: this all assumes identical stack (front end height of frame) - as reach and stack are dependent dimensions.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

tommyrod74 said:


> It is definitely confusing the two.
> 
> Think of it this way:
> 
> ...


ETA: this also ignores (sort of) head angle, which also affects reach, but more so when stack changes.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

winters.benjamin said:


> I
> If Specialized engineered the frame to push weight forward then if you 'need' to move the saddle back, you're de facto saying you don't want a Specialized frame (or you have unruly sized thighs relative to your torso).


1. I should have stated "effective reach". I don't like to use ETT at all.

2. To address your point, it isn't that you don't want a Specialized frame or are ignoring some "designer". They made the STA steeper because it allowed them to shorten the chain stays more easily. Tons of companies are doing this and I *loath* it. Seriously, damn near 75* STA on bikes? WTF. Maybe a track bike.

Your statement shows you know _nothing_ about bike fit. You don't arbitrarily set your saddle position relative to the BB based on a "frame designer". You set it for correct fore/aft positioning, relative to the BB. You generally keep that consistent among bikes.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

It doesn't help that the riders are tall with long legs and long arms, which is close to the limits of adjustment and makes the bikes look ungainly when not being ridden. If you see a picture of those bikes with a rider onboard they don't look that out of the ordinary then. The Specialized mtb bikes are clearly off the shelf frames, they may have custom paint jobs but they're not made specifically for any one rider. For their taller riders on the road (eg: Tom Boonen in particular) they made custom moulds to have bikes that fit their body shapes better.

For a contrast in how to setup a bike for a tall rider here's David Valero's MMR Kenta 29 from Nove Mesto 2017. This is his old bike, rather than the new prototype he's been on for the last few races.










Apparently he's 6' 2" but instead of sizing down rides an XL frame. If you look at his saddle position you can see how he could probably use a steeper seat tube angle on the frame, as he has an in-line post plus the saddle slid all the way forwards on its rails. According to the geometry page the MMR Kenta 29 has a 72.5 degree seat tube, which is one of the slackest for a current XC bike and helps explain this.

When you're talking about setup the starting point is always your saddle position and height relative to the bottom bracket. You sort the rest out from there. You want a frame that allows you to reach that preferred position without having to do anything too extreme with seatpost offset or saddle adjustments. The ideal setup (least likely to break components such as saddle rails or seatpost bolts) is to have the saddle close to centred on the seatpost to minimize strain on the saddle and post. Seat tube angle affects how close you can get to that.

(Measure using a plumb line from the bottom bracket to the ground and then take the same measurement using a plumb line to the ground from a set point on the saddle also. The difference between the two is your saddle setback. Whenever you change bikes keep that setback measurement the same, along with saddle height and saddle angle, for a consistent pedalling setup).

In the text they say he uses a headset adjuster to steepen the frame head angle by 1 degree too, which on a MMR Kenta 29 changes it from 69 degrees to a 70 degree head angle

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/05/2...-mmr-kenta-absalons-bmc-fourstroke-prototype/

Red Bull have a gallery of 15 World Cup race bikes (from Nove Mesto 2017).

https://www.redbull.com/ca-en/2017-xco-race-bikes-from-nove-mesto-red-bull

It gives a nice comparison of some of the top riders positions and setups. There is a lot of variation depending on body shape, rather than a uniform formula. Anton Cooper's Trek Top Fuel (despite being a much shorter rider) is along the lines of a Kulhavy setup with downwards sloping saddle and negative rise stem at almost the same angle!










The picture I was trying to find was this one of Mathias Fluckiger's "Radon prototype" full suspension bike.










This bike isn't actually a Radon. They don't have a full suspension bike available in their lineup. It's a Stockli Morion, his team from last year, although not the current year 2017 bike. It's his 2016 (possibly even tweaked 2015 prototype) bike rebadged.

https://www.stoeckli.ch/inten/bike/bike/race-sport/morion-rs-29

The reason for bringing up that particular bike, and why he's still using it now, is that it looks suspiciously like it was custom built around him, the rear triangle in particular is 1x specific with a massive driveside chainstay that is nothing like the stock bikes. You can see how position wise his saddle is centred on the saddle rails and the stem isn't notable. There's a sheen to the carbon fibre as well that makes me wonder about the layup too.

If you look at Nino Schurter's Scott Spark that's a bike which was more or less built for him.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

briscoelab said:


> 1. I should have stated "effective reach". I don't like to use ETT at all.
> 
> 2. To address your point, it isn't that you don't want a Specialized frame or are ignoring some "designer". They made the STA steeper because it allowed them to shorten the chain stays more easily. Tons of companies are doing this and I *loath* it. Seriously, damn near 75* STA on bikes? WTF. Maybe a track bike.
> 
> Your statement shows you know _nothing_ about bike fit. You don't arbitrarily set your saddle position relative to the BB based on a "frame designer". You set it for correct fore/aft positioning, relative to the BB. You generally keep that consistent among bikes.


Also, you can easily tell it's nothing but marketing B.S. when they say the STA was steepened to shift weight forward.

Why? Because they spec the stock bike with a 10mm offset post. Assuming a rider ignored proper fore/aft positioning and just placed their saddle in the middle of the rails, this would have the effect of slackening the effective STA by about 1 degree. So, they aren't shifting weight forward at all in that instance.

The STA change was made as a design shortcut to get shorter stays. Then marketing came along to make up a "rider first" reason for it.

Now, I like the new Epic and will end up riding one I'm sure. But, lets not kid ourselves with respect to it's design choices and compromises.

I have short legs for my height, so the steeper STA will work nicely for me and gives a longer effective reach. So I can run a bit shorter stem than on previous Epics. I need about 15mm seat post offset to make that STA work. Which the stock post can accommodate or I can just get a Thomson.

But, I number of people could struggle to make a STA that steep work... or they will ignore it and have compromised weight distribution and handling (I feel most people ignore basics of bike fitting and would fall into this camp).


----------



## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

WR304 said:


> It doesn't help that the riders are tall with long legs and long arms, which is close to the limits of adjustment and makes the bikes look ungainly when not being ridden. If you see a picture of those bikes with a rider onboard they don't look that out of the ordinary then. The Specialized mtb bikes are clearly off the shelf frames, they may have custom paint jobs but they're not made specifically for any one rider. For their taller riders on the road (eg: Tom Boonen in particular) they made custom moulds to have bikes that fit their body shapes better.
> 
> For a contrast in how to setup a bike for a tall rider here's David Valero's MMR Kenta 29 from Nove Mesto 2017. This is his old bike, rather than the new prototype he's been on for the last few races.
> 
> ...


All Stöckli Fullsus bikes for the pro team were made at carbon specialists BikeAhead Components in Germany. Flückigers Radon bike is one of those custom made bikes. Radon purchased the design sheets for the standard frame from Stöckli and will be producing an own model based on this layout. Pretty sure MathFluck will keep his custom built Bike.
Btw BikeAhead produces absurdly great wheels. Biturbo RS.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

chilla13 said:


> All Stöckli Fullsus bikes for the pro team were made at carbon specialists BikeAhead Components in Germany. Flückigers Radon bike is one of those custom made bikes. Radon purchased the design sheets for the standard frame from Stöckli and will be producing an own model based on this layout. Pretty sure MathFluck will keep his custom built Bike.
> Btw BikeAhead produces absurdly great wheels. Biturbo RS.


Thanks, I thought it must be something like that. It's one of those bikes that stands out as being special, especially when you think of other parts he's had like that custom carbon fibre dropper seatpost etc.

Looking through the manufacturer product pages, and finding there's nothing quite like it listed anywhere is always a sign that there's more to the story than the sticker on the side.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

briscoelab said:


> 1. I should have stated "effective reach". I don't like to use ETT at all.
> 
> 2. To address your point, it isn't that you don't want a Specialized frame or are ignoring some "designer". They made the STA steeper because it allowed them to shorten the chain stays more easily. Tons of companies are doing this and I *loath* it. Seriously, damn near 75* STA on bikes? WTF. Maybe a track bike.
> 
> Your statement shows you know _nothing_ about bike fit. You don't arbitrarily set your saddle position relative to the BB based on a "frame designer". You set it for correct fore/aft positioning, relative to the BB. You generally keep that consistent among bikes.


There are a few things to remember that are relatively new, at least re: XC geometry.

1) XCO climbs are getting steeper, as are downhills. And more technical. This is prompting more than a few riders to run reversed setback seatposts and/or saddles jammed all the was forward on the rails to attain a better seated climbing position.

2) XC bikes are trending slightly towards enduro-ish geometry - slacker head angles and longer front-center (and reach) with shorter stems. This sort of geometry seems to work best with steeper seat angles (and the resultant further forward saddle position relative to BB), also jiving with the above point #1.

I think the upshot of all this will be bikes that actually handle better and work better with a saddle position (relative to BB) different from, say, a road bike, and require approaching it as such for best results. Yes, I know there is not consensus on this yet, and that it's a compromise between pedaling power on flat ground (which arguably happens very seldom off-road for most riders anyway) and ultimate weight balance for ideal handling - but this has always been the case for MTB positioning, always a compromise of sorts.


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

briscoelab said:


> Your statement shows you know _nothing_ about bike fit. You don't arbitrarily set your saddle position relative to the BB based on a "frame designer". You set it for correct fore/aft positioning, relative to the BB. You generally keep that consistent among bikes.


Trying to avoid taking the bait here, but couldn't help myself. You're actually agreeing with me, but with the way you've drawn the above inference I wouldn't be surprised if you don't see that.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

You stated that if you move your saddle back on a steep STA bike that you are going against the intended design of the frame. That's B.S. You adjust your saddle for proper weight distribution and knee placement. Period.

Specialized saying they steepened the STA for a more forward weight shift is bunk. They don't even actually believe it, since they moved to a 10mm setback seat post, from their 2017 zero offset model. (1* steeper STA roughly matches to a needed 1cm further aft saddle position to keep it in the same spot relative to the BB) It's just marketing jargon.

_If_ that was what you were trying to say, I think you can forgive me for not being able to decipher it and we can move on.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I think the issue is trying to decide what is ideal position is for mountain bike racing. In the past we use to use a position that is similar to that of a road bike. Now we are starting to see some alternatives. Actually even on the road now you are starting to see some alternatives.

I find a steep seat angles or a forward position is ideal for steep climbs, and really not that great for low grade terrain. 

That being said, I don't think we need to make the seat angles steeper on XC bikes. I have short femurs and live in an area with steep climb and I am able to achieve a good fit. I think the trend to steep seat angles is going to make it really difficult to fit tall riders.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

LMN said:


> I think the issue is trying to decide what is ideal position is for mountain bike racing. In the past we use to use a position that is similar to that of a road bike. Now we are starting to see some alternatives. Actually even on the road now you are starting to see some alternatives.
> 
> I find a steep seat angles or a forward position is ideal for steep climbs, and really not that great for low grade terrain.
> 
> That being said, I don't think we need to make the seat angles steeper on XC bikes. I have short femurs and live in an area with steep climb and I am able to achieve a good fit. I think the trend to steep seat angles is going to make it really difficult to fit tall riders.


Hmm.. I'd argue it's the opposite. So many bikes currently use a slacker seat angle on bigger sizes (compared to the smaller versions of the same frame) to make the top tube measurement "longer" - and, when coupled with a very long seatpost, the rider ends up sitting way out over the rear wheel, in a horrible seated position for climbing.

I'd think it would be the taller riders who'd benefit most from a steeper STA and longer reach.

In my earlier post, I neglected to mention that it seems a slacker head angle works better with a steeper seat angle as this allows one to keep weight on the front wheel, even on flatter ground - preventing "pushing" through turns (understeer).


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

tommyrod74 said:


> Hmm.. I'd argue it's the opposite. So many bikes currently use a slacker seat angle on bigger sizes (compared to the smaller versions of the same frame) to make the top tube measurement "longer" - and, when coupled with a very long seatpost, the rider ends up sitting way out over the rear wheel, in a horrible seated position for climbing.
> 
> I'd think it would be the taller riders who'd benefit most from a steeper STA and longer reach.
> 
> In my earlier post, I neglected to mention that it seems a slacker head angle works better with a steeper seat angle as this allows one to keep weight on the front wheel, even on flatter ground - preventing "pushing" through turns (understeer).


What would you say to be the optimum mtb position?

Assuming you do climbs, flats and downhill on them. Nothing crazy, average mtb trails.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

WR304 said:


> Anton Cooper's Trek Top Fuel (despite being a much shorter rider) is along the lines of a Kulhavy setup with downwards sloping saddle and negative rise stem at almost the same angle!


And his seat/bar drop is about 10mm.


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Awesome races yesterday. Kulhavy is such a beast when he is healthy and interested. 

It looked like Nino was on Ikons yesterday and kinda struggled for traction. Sure seemed like MVP was handling the mud / conditions better early in the race, probably due to what looks like an actual mud tire. Vet move by the young rider. 

He may just crush everyone in another year if he sticks with MTB racing. Not sure sure how he'll handle trying to be fast most the year though. That has not worked out well for the women who have tried.

Hoping for more tough conditions & close racing in MSA.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

LMN said:


> I think the issue is trying to decide what is ideal position is for mountain bike racing. In the past we use to use a position that is similar to that of a road bike. Now we are starting to see some alternatives. Actually even on the road now you are starting to see some alternatives.
> 
> I find a steep seat angles or a forward position is ideal for steep climbs, and really not that great for low grade terrain.
> 
> That being said, I don't think we need to make the seat angles steeper on XC bikes. I have short femurs and live in an area with steep climb and I am able to achieve a good fit. I think the trend to steep seat angles is going to make it really difficult to fit tall riders.





tommyrod74 said:


> Hmm.. I'd argue it's the opposite. So many bikes currently use a slacker seat angle on bigger sizes (compared to the smaller versions of the same frame) to make the top tube measurement "longer" - and, when coupled with a very long seatpost, the rider ends up sitting way out over the rear wheel, in a horrible seated position for climbing.
> 
> I'd think it would be the taller riders who'd benefit most from a steeper STA and longer reach.
> 
> In my earlier post, I neglected to mention that it seems a slacker head angle works better with a steeper seat angle as this allows one to keep weight on the front wheel, even on flatter ground - preventing "pushing" through turns (understeer).


With respect to you both, let me offer a third option: A steep SA makes for a lengthened wheelbase from the rear (although chainstays have trended shorter with Boost, etc.). A longer TT makes for a lengthened wheelbase in the middle of the bike. A slacker HA makes for a lengthened wheelbase in the front of the bike.

Old-school roadie tendency, as mentioned, is to ride a smaller frame. You see this tendency still pop up with the Specialized riders like Kulhavy: he counters new frame innovations by riding a size too small, rocking a setback post and a long stem.

A longer bike is more stable at speed. A longer bike carves better through the corners. It may not pivot around switchbacks as quickly, but it should climb and it should descend more confidently. A longer bike should corner faster, in general, as long as the corner doesn't require you to nearly stop to get through it.

I may have mentioned this before but check out DH videos from the turn of the century vs now: biggest difference that will stick out is that the old-school bikes look too short.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

Jairo would need the same setback seat post regardless of mtb frame size. His seat height is constant and the seat tube angle does not vary from the large to xl. 

Now, stem size would clearly change.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

briscoelab said:


> Jairo would need the same setback seat post regardless of mtb frame size. His seat height is constant and the seat tube angle does not vary from the large to xl.
> 
> Now, stem size would clearly change.


Kulhavy is actually not too terribly big but we should always remember that he is 6'2". There are plenty of guys in the grand tour ranks that are taller and/or heavier. But on the MTB one of the reasons for setback is the relatively short 175mm cranks. Even on the road with its emphasis on spin, the big guys still ride 177.5s.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

TDLover said:


> What would you say to be the optimum mtb position?
> 
> Assuming you do climbs, flats and downhill on them. Nothing crazy, average mtb trails.


I don't know for certain. I think, as LMN alluded to above, we are going through a period where geometry is changing to make bikes more capable in rougher terrain. this evolution is impacting bike fit and rider position in various ways. I think it will continue to evolve a bit as suspension, tires, and rims continue to improve.

I know that my current race bike seems to be a great compromise between power output and technical handling (Ibis Ripley LS - yes, I know it's a trail bike, but at 24.2 lbs it's perfectly raceable) and has been ridden to excellent results by me this season. Further, i'm having far more fun riding this bike and am taking far rougher lines with more confidence than before. It's just faster everywhere.

Longish chainstays and wheelbase, and no trouble at all getting it through twisty singletrack at speed (or manualing). Crazy low BB but no issues at all once used to it. Slack HA, but could definitely use a steeper SA - saddle is rammed all the way forward on the rails. One thing about a 73 degree "virtual" SA - it's only 73 degrees at the point where it's level with the top of the head tube. Above that it gets slacker and slacker as you go up. This may be another reason for the steep SA trend - it's not really all that steep as it's a "virtual" measurement.

So, I guess we'll see in a few years where it ends up.


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

LMN said:


> I find a steep seat angles or a forward position is ideal for steep climbs, and really not that great for low grade terrain.


Add to this that shorter steep climbs can be (perhaps need to be in XCO racing) tackled out of the saddle. When I'm evaluating geometry, my primary concerns are accommodating descents (wheelbase, head tube angle) and longish climbs/flats - for me the latter is best served by making sure my knees are positioned well (mostly femur length here) and hip angles aren't too sharp when elbows are moderately bent (I tend to lose a little power when torso gets closer to horizontal w/TT). I don't have this reduced to math yet, i.e., I can't tell you what exact ST, HT, ETT I need to make this work - I do have numbers for reach and stack but manufacturers don't always advertise this and I hate Excel worksheets - but I can tell you within a couple of minutes of throwing a leg over it whether a frame is going to fit or not.


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

tommyrod74 said:


> I don't know for certain. I think, as LMN alluded to above, we are going through a period where geometry is changing to make bikes more capable in rougher terrain. this evolution is impacting bike fit and rider position in various ways. I think it will continue to evolve a bit as suspension, tires, and rims continue to improve.
> 
> I know that my current race bike seems to be a great compromise between power output and technical handling (Ibis Ripley LS - yes, I know it's a trail bike, but at 24.2 lbs it's perfectly raceable) and has been ridden to excellent results by me this season. Further, i'm having far more fun riding this bike and am taking far rougher lines with more confidence than before. It's just faster everywhere.
> 
> ...


And I thought you had a strong opinion on the perfect fit. Bike perfect fit is hard to determine, given the different riding styles, terrain and human sizes. I tend to view things the scientific way, though when it comes to bike fit it has always been an empirical set up.

I've set up my bike in a way that I can climb steep stuff which I love to do and that I'm able to descent some steep terrain without much trouble, only thing I have paid special attention to is fore-aft adjustment and seat height. One thing I dislike about my current set up is I seem to be loading the front end too much and my hands don't like it in long rides (4hr+), but other than that I'm pretty set.

There is always the uncertainty of my bike fit being wrong, after all I'm definitely not at expert at bike fitting, I haven't even get a formal bike fit.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

TDLover said:


> And I thought you had a strong opinion on the perfect fit. Bike perfect fit is hard to determine, given the different riding styles, terrain and human sizes. I tend to view things the scientific way, though when it comes to bike fit it has always been an empirical set up.
> 
> I've set up my bike in a way that I can climb steep stuff which I love to do and that I'm able to descent some steep terrain without much trouble, only thing I have paid special attention to is fore-aft adjustment and seat height. One thing I dislike about my current set up is I seem to be loading the front end too much and my hands don't like it in long rides (4hr+), but other than that I'm pretty set.
> 
> ...


I have a strong opinion that things are evolving, and that the previous rules of bike fit (somewhat adapted from the road) may not apply as much going forward.

I find I realize with each passing season exactly how much I don't know yet, and that remaining dogmatic in the face of changing technology and courses is a mistake.

Looking at your fit, simply as a passing observation - some of the things you mention as issues might be mitigated by going up a frame size and running a slightly shorter stem.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tommyrod74 said:


> I have a strong opinion that things are evolving, and that the previous rules of bike fit (somewhat adapted from the road) may not apply as much going forward.
> 
> I find I realize with each passing season exactly how much I don't know yet, and that remaining dogmatic in the face of changing technology and courses is a mistake.
> 
> Looking at your fit, simply as a passing observation - some of the things you mention as issues might be mitigated by going up a frame size and running a slightly shorter stem.


I am in the same boat. Things are evolving and my old "rules" for bike fit need to be changed. At the same time, some of the thing that I changed that I thought were great I have reconsidered.

For example: 
-After a fair bit of switching back and forth, I think the advantages of a slack head angle are great exaggerated. And the benifits of a steeper head angle are highly under reported.
-Dropper post. Absolutely amazing for riding but beginning to have doubt about them for XCO racing.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

I think that droppers can be great. But, wow, we're getting into task overload on the bikes. 

If you're on a FS bike that isn't using inertial valves on the suspension components, or something like the Fox live, you end up with remotes for the front and rear sus (if they aren't linked), a dropper, oh yea... and that pesky shifter. 

People love to bash on the Epic, but it does unload tasks from the rider (even if it doesn't always feel exactly like some would wish). 

Even on my new HT, that has a standard SID World Cup charger remote damper, I think it's almost too much to effectively manger a dropper in a race. I'm more apt to screw something up when trying to use it than just riding with it up (or a standard post). Now riding trails, it's a totally different story. 

I could manage it better during racing on my Epic (where I used a Fox Terralogic up front, but the same idea).


----------



## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

What if they made a dropper and a suspension lockout synced? 

So open suspension means your dropping your post and locked out means your post is raised. 

I've never ridden a Dropper so can't really say if this is 100% effective but seems like it would in theory.


----------



## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Toot3344556 said:


> What if they made a dropper and a suspension lockout synced?
> 
> So open suspension means your dropping your post and locked out means your post is raised.
> 
> I've never ridden a Dropper so can't really say if this is 100% effective but seems like it would in theory.


BMC does this now on a bike. Raising the post puts the shock in trail mode. Most riders aren't interested (there was a thread). I like the shock on my Knollys open on the trail, and firmed up on the logging road. Dropper has nothing to do with my CS preference. Someone could easily make a dropper remote that pulls 2 cables, although the dropper cable may need to be pulled more?


----------



## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

briscoelab said:


> I think that droppers can be great. But, wow, we're getting into task overload on the bikes.


It's not a task overload, we are just too old to learn proper handling  It's like a 20+ years old human learning how to play piano. You really need to invest a lot of time to get to a decent level. When your dropper post is an integral part of your bike racing from an early age you will have no problems using it in heated up situations.


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

The number of tasks isn't a problem for me per se, but rather making their usage subconscious. When I ran a 2x setup, it was pretty reflexive: suffering increases + cadence goes down = drop some gears. I didn't have to think about it. I find that I most always have to think about the dropper and lockout, less so on the lockout. I'm doing math problems between FTP intervals on the indoor trainer to try and force my brain to work better when I'm redlining but I'm not there yet. I remember a Scott video of Geoff Kabush burning through singletrack flipping the electronic lockout on and off to shave milliseconds on cornering. I don't have the mental capacity to do that kind of thing yet in a race with lockout, much less lockout+dropper.


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

LMN said:


> -After a fair bit of switching back and forth, I think the advantages of a slack head angle are great exaggerated. And the benifits of a steeper head angle are highly under reported.


+1 on both points


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Toot3344556 said:


> What if they made a dropper and a suspension lockout synced?
> 
> So open suspension means your dropping your post and locked out means your post is raised.
> 
> I've never ridden a Dropper so can't really say if this is 100% effective but seems like it would in theory.


The new BMC Speedfox does just this. The dropper post and shock lockout are run from the same lever.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/06/2...bike-syncs-dropper-shock-perfect-trail-setup/

The dropper post on that bike is integrated to the frame, so it's likely to be a proprietary parts replacement nightmare a few years down the line.

There's also the Killswitch kickstarter for the same thing to go on any bike:

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/06/2...ly-opens-rear-shock-drop-post-locks-climbing/

The timing of that one was suspiciously close so soon after the BMC announcement.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

LMN said:


> I am in the same boat. Things are evolving and my old "rules" for bike fit need to be changed. At the same time, some of the thing that I changed that I thought were great I have reconsidered.
> 
> For example:
> -After a fair bit of switching back and forth, I think the advantages of a slack head angle are great exaggerated. And the benifits of a steeper head angle are highly under reported.
> -Dropper post. Absolutely amazing for riding but beginning to have doubt about them for XCO racing.


Come on, man. What besides being traditionally a tad bit of a retro grouch has you believing this?


----------



## Carioca_XC (Dec 30, 2014)

Changing the subject a little bit...

Why are there far more women racing HT than men in the WC?

It is still very common to see hardtails in the top 5 in every women's race, while men's are dominated by full-suspension bikes.

What is the reason?


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

The perception (valid or otherwise) that bike weight is more important for the (comparatively) less powerful and lighter women's riders.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Carioca_XC said:


> Changing the subject a little bit...
> 
> Why are there far more women racing HT than men in the WC?
> 
> ...


Lower speeds is a big factor. Particularly on flat and low grade climbs. Duallies really are at their best when pedaling across rough terrain.

Add riders with lower power outputs are more sensitive to weight.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Come on, man. What besides being traditionally a tad bit of a retro grouch has you believing this?


Calling a guy who rides Di2 a "retro grouch" is kind of funny.

In all fairness I can see where that comes from. Call me someone who tends to get pretty suspicious about marketing. Been in the race scene far too long to know that marketing drives bike choice a lot more then performance does.

I don't trust anything until I have personally put a 1000kms. Which BTW is why I roll my eyes when people talk about 29ers. Test data didn't match marketing.

I gotta say now that Nino is on a 29er the rest of the field seems to be a lot closer to him. Just coincidence right 😀


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

LMN said:


> Calling a guy who rides Di2 a "retro grouch" is kind of funny.


But you're only riding Di2 ironically, right?


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LMN said:


> I gotta say now that Nino is on a 29er the rest of the field seems to be a lot closer to him. Just coincidence right 😀


Funny!


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I test rode a 26" bike the other day and thought "I could totally make this my endurance race bike!" (120mm travel).


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Sidewalk said:


> I test rode a 26" bike the other day and thought "I could totally make this my endurance race bike!" (120mm travel).


Yup, put some high volume tires on there and you'll be getting a contact patch pretty darn near a 27.5, and there's nothing wrong with using a 27.5 as an endurance rig (so says me, and so says the non-sponsored Nino if LMN's suspicions are correct  ).


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

briscoelab said:


> The perception (valid or otherwise) that bike weight is more important for the (comparatively) less powerful and lighter women's riders.


How is this a perception? power to weight ration is affected by the weight of the overall system. 2 pounds on a 125 pound system has a larger impact than 2 pounds on a 155 pound system.

We wont get into any discussion on handling and whether one is actually faster than the other  Neff clearly didn't make up the time on the climbs that she lost in the chunk and dabbing all over the place.


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Sidewalk said:


> I test rode a 26" bike the other day and thought "I could totally make this my endurance race bike!" (120mm travel).


You meant to say "Enduro" Race Bike, Right? Because Small wheels are faster down hill.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

FJSnoozer said:


> You meant to say "Enduro" Race Bike, Right? Because Small wheels are faster down hill.


You must be joking, right?

"I felt like the 29er was slower. The clocks don't lie though, and I was consistently posting quicker times on the new bike compared with the old-and this was on my local track!" Vergier said. "That's when I realized the new bike was deceptively quick."

https://www.outsideonline.com/2187766/best-new-downhill-mountain-bikes-now-have-29er-wheels


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

I can be sarcastic at times. All times.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

FJSnoozer said:


> How is this a perception? power to weight ration is affected by the weight of the overall system. 2 pounds on a 125 pound system has a larger impact than 2 pounds on a 155 pound system.
> 
> We wont get into any discussion on handling and whether one is actually faster than the other  Neff clearly didn't make up the time on the climbs that she lost in the chunk and dabbing all over the place.


Sorry, I should have said that the perception that weight is more important _than_ the handling and traction advantages of a FS.

I don't argue that bike weight is more important for a light, less powerful rider, than a larger and more powerful one.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> You must be joking, right?
> 
> "I felt like the 29er was slower. The clocks don't lie though, and I was consistently posting quicker times on the new bike compared with the old-and this was on my local track!" Vergier said. "That's when I realized the new bike was deceptively quick."
> 
> https://www.outsideonline.com/2187766/best-new-downhill-mountain-bikes-now-have-29er-wheels


Marketing again. I am not saying that 29er DH bikes are slower but they certainly have not shown themselves to be the 3s a run quicker that was claimed by the marketing departements. This is why the majority of riders who started the season of 29er DH bikes are now back on 27.5.

There is a lot of claims made by marketing departements, most of them are BS. As I said I have learned only to trust my own experience and that of riders whose opinion I trust.

For instance chomxxo, how many miles do you have on a good 27.5 XC race bike. You are a big fan of big wheels, is that based on experience or opinion?


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> Marketing again. I am not saying that 29er DH bikes are slower but they certainly have not shown themselves to be the 3s a run quicker that was claimed by the marketing departements. This is why the majority of riders who started the season of 29er DH bikes are now back on 27.5.
> 
> There is a lot of claims made by marketing departements, most of them are BS. As I said I have learned only to trust my own experience and that of riders whose opinion I trust.
> 
> For instance chomxxo, how many miles do you have on a good 27.5 XC race bike. You are a big fan of big wheels, is that based on experience or opinion?


I'm guessing that the majority of riders who went back to 27.5 DH bikes did so because their frame manufacturers cobbled together a bike that wasn't nearly as well thought out and put together as the 29" SC V10. Which has actual carbon linkage and rear triangles, indicating it's an actual production model as opposed to quickly fabricated and welded up aluminum. Which is what all of the other teams were running.

Really, it would be more accurate to say, "Teams and racers preferred to go back to their production models, as opposed to cobbled together hacks."

Many of them also said that they were eager to test and refine 29er models in the off season.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> I'm guessing that the majority of riders who went back to 27.5 DH bikes did so because their frame manufacturers cobbled together a bike that wasn't nearly as well thought out and put together as the 29" SC V10. Which has actual carbon linkage and rear triangles, indicating it's an actual production model as opposed to quickly fabricated and welded up aluminum. Which is what all of the other teams were running.


Perhaps that is the reason. And I do suspect that you will see more riders on 29er DH bikes next year. But not because the 29ers are quicker but because changing a product is how you convince people to replace their old product.

I know you too are a big wheel fan, I will ask you the same question. Have you put significant time on a modern 27.5 race bike? Is your opinion based on experience or marketing?


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

LMN said:


> ... I will ask you the same question. Have you put significant time on a modern 27.5 race bike? Is your opinion based on experience or marketing?


LMN...I'm sure many on here have put in a lot of miles on high end 26" bikes prior to switching to 29" bikes. I think most folks experience with 29" wheels in that context was positive. I know that going from a 100mm full suspension 26" bike to a 29" hardtail improved my pace, and I was finding some success in the local pro class. Later, moving back to FS, but this time in a 29" format, did not seem to slow me down appreciably. Admittedly, I think jumping back and forth from FS to HT is muddying the waters a bit here...the question is, was that initial pace improvement from going HT, 29" wheels, or did I somehow become a better racer in the short period of time between those bikes (I actually made the switch mid-season)?

I would love to try out a 27.5" high end XC bike, but based on my positive experience when I first went to 29" wheels, and the financial implications of buying a new bike I may not get along with (and probably has poor resale), I don't see going back to a smaller wheel size for racing. I don't think a demo would be enough time to effectively analyze the difference, and it would be hard to find a high end demo. Do you see a difference in pace between 26" and 27.5" that would our past experience between 26" and 29" irrelevant?

I do agree on your new new found questioning of slack HT and dropper for XC racing. (Once I went trail bike, I never thought I'd go back full XC!) Going from the 67.5 deg HT angle on my last bike, to the 70 deg angle on my new bike has actually been a surprising pleasant change, even when using the bike to race enduro. I race with a dropper simply because I don't think it's worth the time investment to remove it just for a race, and I prefer it for trail riding...but for most races, using it seems to be of little advantage against other racers sans dropper, sometimes using more energy to squat to compress it than it's worth. I think it depends largely on region though, when descents start to exceed 1 minute, it can be really nice to have in a race.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

winters.benjamin said:


> Yup, put some high volume tires on there and you'll be getting a contact patch pretty darn near a 27.5, and there's nothing wrong with using a 27.5 as an endurance rig (so says me, and so says the non-sponsored Nino if LMN's suspicions are correct  ).


 Unfortunately the swing arm only accommodates a 2.2. But the frame was too large for me, so it didn't matter. I did set my fastest time on a single track DH that wasn't technical (loose, but no rocks and roots) and I know it was The wheel size since I could make corner better in the tight stuff and correct my lines in the loose.



FJSnoozer said:


> You meant to say "Enduro" Race Bike, Right? Because Small wheels are faster down hill.


 Well, since my local endurance promoter is an endurobro, our endurance races usually have some of the enduro lines in the course 



briscoelab said:


> Sorry, I should have said that the perception that weight is more important _than_ the handling and traction advantages of a FS.
> 
> I don't argue that bike weight is more important for a light, less powerful rider, than a larger and more powerful one.


 I'm racing a HT because of my budget. But I have noticed that a lot of the climbs benefit from the traction benefits of a full suspension bike. Not a lot to be gained on weight savings when the rear bounces off rocks on a climb.



Le Duke said:


> I'm guessing that the majority of riders who went back to 27.5 DH bikes did so because their frame manufacturers cobbled together a bike that wasn't nearly as well thought out and put together as the 29" SC V10. Which has actual carbon linkage and rear triangles, indicating it's an actual production model as opposed to quickly fabricated and welded up aluminum. Which is what all of the other teams were running.
> 
> Really, it would be more accurate to say, "Teams and racers preferred to go back to their production models, as opposed to cobbled together hacks."
> 
> Many of them also said that they were eager to test and refine 29er models in the off season.


I agree that's probably why. Give a good off season of testing, and/or give them to national level racers to develop.

That said, I still think the "quiver" of bikes is ideal. Letting the rider choose the wheel size that matches the course. That said, DH courses are getting less technical and more high speed with big air to be more attractive to non cycling people, so 29 is probably going to be better more often now.

Funny how XC is getting more technical, while DH is getting less.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brentos I think the challenge is very few do honest comparison. Most of us when we buy a new bike that is our bike. And new bikes, particularly ones we spent a lot of money on, are always faster.

Your example is why it is so difficult to figure out what makes the difference. Was it wheel size that made you quicker, was if HT (FS were not nearly as good as they are now), or was it just your riding quicker? In reality you improved results were probably primarily due to you getting quicker. My experience is bike choice has minor impact on race performance.

In 2013 Orbea had actually produced three identical bikes for Catharine to test, 26, 27.5, and 29. All bikes were identical other then wheel size. Catharine spent 6 months testing those bikes. Between the two of us we have almost 3000km of test data. Although the bikes all felt different, when we compared time with power there was no measurable difference for any wheel size. In the end both of us preferred the feel of the 27.5 but it wasn't quicker or slower.

But things change, the handling characteristics I like now are way different then back in 2013. If I was duplicate that test again, I might find I like the feel of the 29er.



brentos said:


> LMN...I'm sure many on here have put in a lot of miles on high end 26" bikes prior to switching to 29" bikes. I think most folks experience with 29" wheels in that context was positive. I know that going from a 100mm full suspension 26" bike to a 29" hardtail improved my pace, and I was finding some success in the local pro class. Later, moving back to FS, but this time in a 29" format, did not seem to slow me down appreciably. Admittedly, I think jumping back and forth from FS to HT is muddying the waters a bit here...the question is, was that initial pace improvement from going HT, 29" wheels, or did I somehow become a better racer in the short period of time between those bikes (I actually made the switch mid-season)?
> 
> I would love to try out a 27.5" high end XC bike, but based on my positive experience when I first went to 29" wheels, and the financial implications of buying a new bike I may not get along with (and probably has poor resale), I don't see going back to a smaller wheel size for racing. I don't think a demo would be enough time to effectively analyze the difference, and it would be hard to find a high end demo. Do you see a difference in pace between 26" and 27.5" that would our past experience between 26" and 29" irrelevant?
> 
> I do agree on your new new found questioning of slack HT and dropper for XC racing. (Once I went trail bike, I never thought I'd go back full XC!) Going from the 67.5 deg HT angle on my last bike, to the 70 deg angle on my new bike has actually been a surprising pleasant change, even when using the bike to race enduro. I race with a dropper simply because I don't think it's worth the time investment to remove it just for a race, and I prefer it for trail riding...but for most races, using it seems to be of little advantage against other racers sans dropper, sometimes using more energy to squat to compress it than it's worth. I think it depends largely on region though, when descents start to exceed 1 minute, it can be really nice to have in a race.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

LMN, I trust your analysis more than any I have done, as I've never had the devices to do an effective comparison.

I think we agree that there are many other factors that far outweigh wheel size in determining overall speed and results; genetics, training, diet, mental state, rest, and bike fit far outweigh wheel size in determining results. When it comes to the bike set up, I think that tire construction and tire pressure outweigh wheel size. 

So this leaves wheels size pretty far down the pecking order. Bike handling has a big impact on how much we enjoy the ride, so it probably makes sense to go for the wheel size that offers the handling you prefer.

I do think that, as a whole, the bike you race can have a significant impact on overall pace. I’ve had a bike that I simply could not match my normal times when riding, no matter how I set it up. By the time I was done withit, I had attributed it to some pretty wonky suspension kinematics. The funny thing, is, it happens to be a bike that is widely recognized as a great bike, and feels very quick at the pedals, but despite this, it was terribly slow for me for any effort over a minute or so. I assumed my fitness was off, maybe it got into my head, but once I got back on a different bike, I was back to my old self. (Both 29ers of the trail bike variety).

Looking back at my switch to 29” wheels, I just realized that was also a point in time where I spent A LOT of time riding and racing an $800 single speed in open class. I never did very well racing on that bike, but I learned more about racing from competing on that bike than I have before or since. Where to push, where to rest, how to use placing within the group to your advantage. So I believe you are correct, I probably became a better racer during that time.


----------



## MagicShite (Oct 20, 2015)

Is it me or do XC Pros these days run a level saddle to bar drop? Even Nino Schurter's 27.5 setup seems rather level.


----------



## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

MagicShite said:


> Is it me or do XC Pros these days run a level saddle to bar drop? Even Nino Schurter's 27.5 setup seems rather level.


Nino is on a 29er.

It really depends on the build of the pro in question. Nino is rsther short on a 29er, so he is closer to level. Guys like Kulhavy, Tempier and Valero run pretty large saddle to bar drops.


----------



## MagicShite (Oct 20, 2015)

khardrunner14 said:


> Nino is on a 29er.
> 
> It really depends on the build of the pro in question. Nino is rsther short on a 29er, so he is closer to level. Guys like Kulhavy, Tempier and Valero run pretty large saddle to bar drops.


His older 27.5 build is rather level.

I guess my question wasn't clear enough, I was wondering if there is somewhat a shift in how pros these days choose to run their saddle to bar drops. I'm quite sure many of them could run a larger drop with a more negative inverted stem. Just curious why not.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MagicShite said:


> His older 27.5 build is rather level.


I guess it depends what you consider level, looks like about a 4" drop to me. The 29'er looks about the same.


----------



## wheelzqc (Aug 31, 2016)

Yeah, he seems to have decent drop relative to his size... but the pictures might be adding some with the rear wheel lifted.


----------



## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

You want drop?
https://www.brujulabike.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Ciruito-David-Valero.jpg


----------



## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

wheelzqc said:


> Yeah, he seems to have decent drop relative to his size... but the pictures might be adding some with the rear wheel lifted.


his stem is maxed out as far as getting the bars low. Looks like a -17 at least and I am not sure he could get the bars any lower if he wanted to without getting ridiculous.


----------



## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

khardrunner14 said:


> his stem is maxed out as far as getting the bars low. Looks like a -17 at least and I am not sure he could get the bars any lower if he wanted to without getting ridiculous.


-17 on his 27.5 and -25 on his 29er. He runs the bars flipped to low drop (they are +/-5mm) and has in the past left the top headset cap off to further reduce it a couple of millimeters.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

khardrunner14 said:


> his stem is maxed out as far as getting the bars low. Looks like a -17 at least and I am not sure he could get the bars any lower if he wanted to without getting ridiculous.





MessagefromTate said:


> -17 on his 27.5 and -25 on his 29er. He runs the bars flipped to low drop (they are +/-5mm) and has in the past left the top headset cap off to further reduce it a couple of millimeters.


We can credit the mercifully short-lived 27.5 in XC trend to Nino not feeling able to get his bars low enough on a 29er. Thankfully he figured it out 

Shorter people's arms are shorter. That means that Nino is leaned over and weighted over the front end as much as a tall guy like Marotte, even if there are several inches difference in saddle-bar drop. His bars are below his saddle, but not by much, and photos may be deceptive.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

I don't know. My 5' 2.5" wife loves both 27.5 race bikes she has owned. It was doable on a 29er, but always a compromise. 

I think options are good. 

I'm nearly 6' 2", so a 29er makes sense (especially for the HT). But even I'd love to try a really nice speced, well designed 27.5" 100mm travel FS.


----------



## wheelzqc (Aug 31, 2016)

What's the most drop you can get with a stem -25 (Ritchey) or Syntace Flatforce ?


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

drop vs. stem length - Flatforce:

http://www.syntace.de/download/pdf/Flatforce_Vergleich_eH_ver-03.pdf


----------



## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Does anyone know which Maxxis tires Gun Rita was on at Lenzerheide also what tires Last was on? Gun Rita looked like she had more traction than most of the other women. Last's coach attributed her win to her tire choice.


----------



## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

rupps5 said:


> Does anyone know which Maxxis tires Gun Rita was on at Lenzerheide also what tires Last was on? Gun Rita looked like she had more traction than most of the other women. Last's coach attributed her win to her tire choice.


I don't know for -100% sure, but based on the design across her Jersey - I'd say Ikons.


----------



## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

I think she runs Ikons and aspens in the dry, but this race was a little slick and wanted to see if she changed it up. I have found Ikons to be not so good when it's a little slick out.


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

rupps5 said:


> Does anyone know which Maxxis tires Gun Rita was on at Lenzerheide also what tires Last was on? Gun Rita looked like she had more traction than most of the other women. Last's coach attributed her win to her tire choice.


Last was on Schwalbe - RaRa on front, not sure about the back though but the podium shot shows her bike with a Thunder Burt. I think GRD was on Aspens based on the photos on PinkBike (but it is hard to tell).

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/there...heide-xc-world-cup-2017-elite-photo-epic.html


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

GRD looks to have had at least an Aspen front and quite probably both.


----------



## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

Last used F:Racing Ralph R: ThunderBurt


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Nino was on Ikon's front and rear.

Nino went from Aspen's to Ikon's and GRD went from Ikon's to Aspen's.


----------



## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

What other tires are the WC Racers using besides Thunderburt, racing Ralph, icon, and Aspen? This tire hoarder needs to know. LOL


----------



## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

What about Rocket Rons ? I've never seen one on a WC event ... is it just me ?


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Toot3344556 said:


> What about Rocket Rons ? I've never seen one on a WC event ... is it just me ?


Good question! One of my favorites. My only guess is that the relatively tall knob height doesn't look "pro"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Toot3344556 said:


> What about Rocket Rons ? I've never seen one on a WC event ... is it just me ?


I think MVDP was using them last race. Sabine Spitz uses them on the front.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

rupps5 said:


> What other tires are the WC Racers using besides Thunderburt, racing Ralph, icon, and Aspen? This tire hoarder needs to know. LOL


Trek teams run Bontrager XR1, XR2 (with an occasional exception).

Julien Absalon runs Continental (usually Race King, sometimes X-King up front).

Anton Cooper was running Nobby Nics when he won a muddy U23 World Championship in Vallnord, Andorra (2015).


----------



## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

The kross team look to be running Mitas Scylla Top Design


----------



## pamoreira (Jan 6, 2016)

brentos said:


> Julien Absalon runs Continental (usually Race King, sometimes X-King up front)


Absalon is running Vittoria this year, Mezcals on most occasions I guess.

Last year he was on Continental, but not necessarily the ones we can get on shops - saw his bike with ProLtd on the two WCs I went to see.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## aricthered (Mar 26, 2013)

There is a picture of Emily Batty at Vallnord where she is on what looks like a blacked out Ikon. https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/14896152/


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Are these pro's stupid? Haven't they been to the bicyclerollingresistance website and seen how many watts Ikon's in particular and any Maxxis tyre in general suck out of you?


----------



## Priit (Oct 22, 2013)

NordieBoy said:


> Are these pro's stupid? Haven't they been to the bicyclerollingresistance website and seen how many watts Ikon's in particular and any Maxxis tyre in general suck out of you?


Maybe, but here is the link to an original swiss scientists research - the same team who assisted Nino to choose Aspens for Rio Reliability of the virtual elevation method to evaluate rolling resistance of different mountain bike cross-country tyres. There is also an article in the mbr.co.uk that summarizes aforementioned research paper - This is officially the fastest tyre on the market

The same swiss research group has also published very interesting papers

Performance differences when using 26- and 29-inch-wheel bikes in Swiss National Team cross-country mountain bikers,

The influence of tyre characteristics on measures of rolling performance during cross-country mountain biking,

Evaluation of aerodynamic and rolling resistances in mountain-bike field conditions and others.


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

So why the Aspens and not RK? Because in the end rolling resistance is not such a huge differentiator and factors like grip play into the decision, too?

And did he have a free choice? Is it different when riding for the Nat Team?


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

NordieBoy said:


> Are these pro's stupid? Haven't they been to the bicyclerollingresistance website and seen how many watts Ikon's in particular and any Maxxis tyre in general suck out of you?


They don't use the same tires you can buy. Even though they are named the same model, they get racing specific tires that are way different to retail stuff.


----------



## Priit (Oct 22, 2013)

TDLover said:


> They don't use the same tires you can buy. Even though they are named the same model, they get racing specific tires that are way different to retail stuff.


Yes, Nino and others use special, pro only Aspen and Ikon tyres that have *170 tpi casings *(vs 60 and 120 tpi casings of retail tyres): Maxxis Summit 2017: Amazing pro-only 170tpi Ikon & Aspen XC race tires, plus casing details. And according to studies, tyre rolling resistance in MTB races is actually very important: 
_In mountain __bike cross-country (MTB XC), a low rolling resistance seems__particularly crucial to performance, as it can amount to up to_
_69% of the total resistance on a rough ground surface like_
_grass (Bertucci & Rogier, 2012; Bertucci, Rogier, & Reiser II, _2013).


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

For the record, I think bicyclerollingresistance is a crock.
I run Ikon's, Ardent's, Ardent Races, Minion SS, X-King's, Race King's myself and prefer the Ikon's.
Would love to try Aspen's next though.


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

Just got the full text of the Swiss study. The Aspen is not included. The tested Ikon is the one for mortals, e.g. 120tpi.


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

Further to my previous post, when you compare the 120tpi Ikon and the RK you can see a 10W difference at 0% slope. This is pretty much the difference you can see in these German tire test on steel drums.


----------



## Priit (Oct 22, 2013)

quax said:


> Just got the full text of the Swiss study. The Aspen is not included. The tested Ikon is the one for mortals, e.g. 120tpi.


Got also this article. Tyres studied were:

Bontrager XR1 Tubeless 29x2.20 700 g 120 tpi ( I guess it's the Team Issue)
Continental Race King Tubeless 29x2.20 512 g 180 tpi ( I guess it's the RaceSport)
Dugast Fast Bird Tubular 29x2.00 620 g
Dugast Prototype Tubular 29x2.00 645 g
Hutchinson Black Mamba Tubeless 29x2.00 479 g 127 tpi
Maxxis Ikon Tubeless 29x2.20 542 g 120 tpi
Ritchey Shield Tubeless 29x2.10 566 g 120 tpi
Schwalbe Racing Ralph Tubeless 29x2.25 566 g 127 tpi
Specialized Renegade Tubeless 29x2.10 488 g 120 tpi ( I guess it's the old S-Works Renegade)


----------



## quax (Feb 21, 2009)




----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Interesting the efficiency differences on flats vs slopes. Lower Cr is buying you more speed per watt on the flats than climbs, or so it seems. But I'm pretty sure I would dump all of those gains slipping out of my first corner on a high-speed descent using the Mambas, Renegades or Race Kings on F and R.


----------



## Priit (Oct 22, 2013)

winters.benjamin said:


> Interesting the efficiency differences on flats vs slopes. Lower Cr is buying you more speed per watt on the flats than climbs, or so it seems. But I'm pretty sure I would dump all of those gains slipping out of my first corner on a high-speed descent using the Mambas, Renegades or Race Kings on F and R.


Since the weight distribution on MTB is usually not very far off 40:60 (Front:Rear) using higher rolling resistance (i.e. knobbier) tyre in the front isn't too big of a penalty for the bike as a whole system and can be done without loosing too many watts.

You can calculate the rolling resistance by recalculating with the actual load on the front tire by using the rolling resistance coefficient (CRR) values to recalculate with speed and load. The formula is: CRR * (load_kg * 9.81) * speed_m/s.

For example I calculated these values for my own bike using data from Bicycle Rolling Resistance | Rolling Resistance Tests with three scenarios:
*1.* Using X-King front and rear the total calculated resistance due to tyres is front+rear 20,85 w+31,27 w=52.12 W;
*2.* Using X-King front and RaceKing rear the total calculated resistance due to tyres is front+rear 20,85 w+28,13 w=48,98 W;
*3.* Using RaceKings front and rear the total calculated resistance due to tyres is front+rear 18,75 w+28,13 w=46,88 W.

So the difference between cases 2 and 3, i.e. the penalty for using X-King in the front is only 2,1 W. In the same time, the penalty for using X-King in the rear (instead of RaceKing) is 3,14 W, and the penalty for using only X-kings is 5,24 W.

Now 5,24 W is already something you can probably feel and definitely has some small ride time effects too - especially on longer courses. 2,1 W not so much - more or less the error of the powermeter .


----------



## pk1 (Mar 25, 2010)

Priit said:


> Maybe, but here is the link to an original swiss scientists research - the same team who assisted Nino to choose Aspens for Rio Reliability of the virtual elevation method to evaluate rolling resistance of different mountain bike cross-country tyres. There is also an article in the mbr.co.uk that summarizes aforementioned research paper - This is officially the fastest tyre on the market
> 
> The same swiss research group has also published very interesting papers
> 
> ...


so the swiss tested a bunch of tyres, found the race king to be fastest, ikon slowish. nino then went and used aspens which weren't tested but could be assumed to be similar or slower than the ikons?

RR is not everything but it just seems the test was pointless!


----------



## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

pk1 said:


> so the swiss tested a bunch of tyres, found the race king to be fastest, ikon slowish. nino then went and used aspens which weren't tested but could be assumed to be similar or slower than the ikons?
> 
> RR is not everything but it just seems the test was pointless!


Well, Maxis sponsors Nino's team, that is they pay them to use their tires exclusively.

For Nino's team yeah it is pointless, for the rest of mortals it is not and for Continental this study is pure gold.


----------



## Priit (Oct 22, 2013)

pk1 said:


> so the swiss tested a bunch of tyres, found the race king to be fastest, ikon slowish. nino then went and used aspens which weren't tested but could be assumed to be similar or slower than the ikons?
> 
> RR is not everything but it just seems the test was pointless!


The point was that with Nino and Maxxis they made tests by he same methodology as shown in the published paper.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

pk1 said:


> so the swiss tested a bunch of tyres, found the race king to be fastest, ikon slowish. nino then went and used aspens which weren't tested but could be assumed to be similar or slower than the ikons?
> 
> RR is not everything but it just seems the test was pointless!


Why would you assume that Aspens are slower than Ikons?

Anyone who has ever seen an Aspen in person, or compared it to an Ikon, would reasonably conclude that it's a faster tire.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

TDLover said:


> Well, Maxis sponsors Nino's team, that is they pay them to use their tires exclusively.


He changed over to blacked out prototype Aspens for last years Nove Mesto race.
The team was still running Dugast's at the time.


----------



## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> He changed over to blacked out prototype Aspens for last years Nove Mesto race.
> The team was still running Dugast's at the time.


Yep, Maxxis came on board in 2017. I'm sure the Race King 2.2 was the target following the intitial testing and that's how Nino ended up on the blacked out prototype 170tpi 2.25 tire (production Maxxis Aspen was a 2.1). Maxxis was not yet affiliated with the team in 2016. Notice the Dugasts tested worse than the RK 2.2 as well.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

*ETAP: where is it?*

Electronic shifting has been a big advance for road and cyclocross. It's high time that SRAM produced their electronic, wireless version of Eagle.

Is anyone aware of SRAM prototypes being seen at the WC level?

"Even on the gravel builds we've assembled, we have nothing but success to report, where other electronic groups often fall victim to wires jostling free from ports over rough terrain. Actual shift action has - predictably - remained as solid as the day we assembled it."

https://abovecategorycycling.com/journal/sram-etap-the-honeymoon-is-over/


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

How many people put WAY too much thought into the so called rolling resistance of a tire without even considering how much more important the feel of the tire is? The best performing tire by the numbers doesn't mean **** if the rider doesn't have confidence in it!

That said, I raced today for the first time with a Hans Dampf 2.35 front, RaceKing Protection 2.2 rear and love the combo.



chomxxo said:


> Electronic shifting has been a big advance for road and cyclocross. It's high time that SRAM produced their electronic, wireless version of Eagle.
> 
> Is anyone aware of SRAM prototypes being seen at the WC level?
> 
> ...


I'm really surprised we haven't seen anything yet. Seems like a no brainer for MTB.

Though, in the link provided they say they have 3000 miles, I would hardly consider that high mileage.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

I haven't seen anything about mountain bike versions of Sram Etap. It's sure to be coming though.

SRAM Etap uses a rechargeable battery that clips into the derailleurs. With the road version there have apparently been some issues with the battery tabs breaking off, see pictures below. On a mountain bike this tab could be a more pronounced issue again, which might require a stronger tab for riding with lots of bumps and vibration coming up through the bike. The problem with that is you'd end up needing different batteries depending on whether you were using road or mountain etap.

SRAM ETap Battery Flaw? - Weight Weenies

Scroll down to the Amazon reviews:

https://www.amazon.com/SRAM-eTap-Ba...=1501126076&sr=1-1&keywords=sram+etap+battery


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Because of the fewer number of batteries involved, 1x12 makes that much more sense with eTap. I am waiting to upgrade to 12 speed until I get wireless electronic shifting.


----------



## RadBartTaylor (Dec 1, 2004)

I put Etap on my CX / Touring bike, my Ritchey Breakaway, it's unbelievable. The second day I had it, was on MTB trails in Palm Springs and tweaked the ever loving ***t out of the rear der/hanger. Thought it was just the hanger but the derailleur is tweaked as well. Works pretty good, a couple gears in the middle of the cassette are a little funky, but works good enough. I'll wait until they go on sale to replace it.

Also just did a 5 day, 300 mile on/offroad ride, 40,000 feet of climbing, nasty rocky, gravel descents. No problems w/batteries breaking and didn't have to recharge anything, although I had a an extra battery just in case and a dyno hub that I could charge batteries with.

They need to get a clutched rear der for cross and 1x12 mtb.....game changer.


----------



## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Had Etap on my road bike for about a month and hated it, couldn't wait to get it off. Shifts were way too slow (maybe they upgraded their software by now?) and just didn't want one more set of batteries to worry about. One battery each for front and rear shifter, and then one each for the front and rear derailleur. With cell phones, Garmins, cameras, garage door openers, etc, I wanted no more freakin batteries to hassle with. But mostly, it just shifted too slowly. With a good mechanic and some cables, you're set for 1,000's of miles or years of pretty much hassle-free riding. Just MO.


----------



## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

I hate the slow Etap shifting speed. 

My wife and I have 4 bike between us with Shimano Di2, set to fast shift speed, it's awesome. While I would like the lack of wires on Etap, the shifting is a compromise. Shimano has proven rock solid and the ability to reconfigure buttons is nice.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

This pretty much confirms what I've been observing: longer wheelbase, and slacker is better. Early 29ers tried to cram into the dimensions of 26ers. 2007 retro 73* head angle? Yikes.

http://reviews.mtbr.com/full-suspension-29ers-ten-years-later

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> This pretty much confirms what I've been observing: longer wheelbase, and slacker is better. Early 29ers tried to cram into the dimensions of 26ers. 2007 retro 73* head angle? Yikes.
> 
> Full suspension 29ers ten years later - Mtbr.com
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Better for 29ers, you mean.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

winters.benjamin said:


> Better for 29ers, you mean.


What else is there now? Ergo...29ers are just better.

Longer wheelbases on DH and XC bikes can be observed over the last couple of decades. Now where is that video again, always good for laughs...ah yes:






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> What else is there now? Ergo...29ers are just better.
> 
> Longer wheelbases on DH and XC bikes can be observed over the last couple of decades. Now where is that video again, always good for laughs...ah yes:
> 
> ...


Great video!


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> What else is there now? Ergo...29ers are just better.
> 
> Longer wheelbases on DH and XC bikes can be observed over the last couple of decades. Now where is that video again, always good for laughs...ah yes:
> 
> ...


I love the wicket-keeper pads on your man at 0:13. Brilliant.


----------



## pk1 (Mar 25, 2010)

chomxxo said:


> This pretty much confirms what I've been observing: longer wheelbase, and slacker is better. Early 29ers tried to cram into the dimensions of 26ers. 2007 retro 73* head angle? Yikes.
> 
> Full suspension 29ers ten years later - Mtbr.com
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


comparing a 100mm bike to a 160mm... yeah, that's apples to apples 

while the conclusion may be right, the article is pretty meaningless


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Another good article. The "Post-Mondrakian Era" is catching on.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/too-long-too-slack--pinkbike-poll-2017.html


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

....and looks like most respondents think 'it all depends'. Which means either they are right, in that riding style and environment really do dictate optimal geo, or they're just indecisive.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

winters.benjamin said:


> ....and looks like most respondents think 'it all depends'. Which means either they are right, in that riding style and environment really do dictate optimal geo, or they're just indecisive.
> 
> View attachment 1150215


Don't make me post that 1992 Downhill video again! 

People don't know, but what wins is obvious.


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/emily-batty-procaliber-sltop-fuel-bike-check.html

Rim IW is whaaaat? Borderline fat bike.


----------



## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

It's internal width, not diameter...that is the future for XC.


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

peabody said:


> It's internal width, not diameter...that is the future for XC.


Indeed. Posted too quickly, now corrected.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

winters.benjamin said:


> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/emily-batty-procaliber-sltop-fuel-bike-check.html
> 
> Rim IW is whaaaat? Borderline fat bike.


If you look in the very first picture, with both the hardtail (being held up in the air) and full suspension bikes you can see the hardtail has blacked out Maxxis Ikon tyres, rather than Bontrager XR1 tyres.

It was noted in the Pinkbike comments, not my spot.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Noted that Aaron Gwin is riding his bike this year with custom, lengthened chain stays.

Aaron Gwin's 2017 World Cup YT Tues CF - Mountain Bikes Feature Stories - Vital MTB


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Anyone know what tires Nino was using at MSA? Not branded, not Aspen or Ikon. Not a Maxxis tread I recognize.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

kevbikemad said:


> Anyone know what tires Nino was using at MSA? Not branded, not Aspen or Ikon. Not a Maxxis tread I recognize.


I saw it also on the Pinkbike pics...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Hmmm...


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

NordieBoy said:


> Hmmm...


That looks like a distant cousin to a [gasp] Thunderburt.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

winters.benjamin said:


> That looks like a distant cousin to a [gasp] Thunderburt.


The new Renegade or something done by Hutchinson...

To hard to tell...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

winters.benjamin said:


> That looks like a distant cousin to a [gasp] Thunderburt.


But very distant and very grown up cousin  Thunderburt's middle knobs are half the size of this, or even smaller


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

*New Maxxis?*

Looks like Maxxis was testing new tires with Nino at MSA. I do like the looks of this tire.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

LMN said:


> For example:
> -After a fair bit of switching back and forth, I think the advantages of a slack head angle are great exaggerated. And the benifits of a steeper head angle are highly under reported.
> -Dropper post. Absolutely amazing for riding but beginning to have doubt about them for XCO racing.


What would you consider slack vs steep? Nowadays the border is not so clear anymore.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I think Maxxis's problem may be too many tires in the lineup. 

Ikon, Pace, Crossmark, Crossmark II, Ardent Race, Race TT, TreadLite, MaxxLite etc...almost buried Aspen resurrected. 

To many choices, now a new one...


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Goran_injo said:


> I think Maxxis's problem may be too many tires in the lineup.
> 
> Ikon, Pace, Crossmark, Crossmark II, Ardent Race, Race TT, TreadLite, MaxxLite etc...almost buried Aspen resurrected.
> 
> To many choices, now a new one...


@LMN... as a Maxxis guy (I have very little personal experience outside of the original Crossmark and a short bit on an Ikon 2.2), what are your thoughts on the Pace, TreadLite, Race TT? Just curious. Or I guess the Crossmark II for that matter...


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Goran_injo said:


> I think Maxxis's problem may be too many tires in the lineup.
> 
> Ikon, Pace, Crossmark, Crossmark II, Ardent Race, Race TT, TreadLite, MaxxLite etc...almost buried Aspen resurrected.
> 
> To many choices, now a new one...


Agreed, Maxxis does have a lot of models. I am sure that a huge percentage of sales are probably just a few tire models really. Some of the older models, makes you wonder is it just left over stock they feel they might as well try to sell? Why not I guess.

I do welcome the new tire.


----------



## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Goran_injo said:


> I think Maxxis's problem may be too many tires in the lineup.
> 
> Ikon, Pace, Crossmark, Crossmark II, Ardent Race, Race TT, TreadLite, MaxxLite etc...almost buried Aspen resurrected.
> 
> To many choices, now a new one...


All those listed... anyone able to break it down as what's ideal use per model? I know it's not the tire thread but given it was mentioned here...


----------



## Litemike (Sep 13, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

*Cougar*

Looks ans aweful lot like a cut down Hutchinson Cougar.

EDIT: Never mind. Far fewer knobs on the Cougar.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Maxxis has a bunch of "XC" tires that I've never seen on a mountain bike in the flesh at a race.

I've seen Aspens, Ardent, Ardent Race, Ikon.

Never seen Crossmark II, Maxxlite, Pace, Race TT or Tread Lite.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> Maxxis has a bunch of "XC" tires that I've never seen on a mountain bike in the flesh at a race.
> 
> I've seen Aspens, Ardent, Ardent Race, Ikon.
> 
> Never seen Crossmark II, Maxxlite, Pace, Race TT or Tread Lite.


I've seen all of them at amateur level races. But mostly Ikon is the choice...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pegleg81 (Aug 6, 2014)

LMN said:


> For example:
> -After a fair bit of switching back and forth, I think the advantages of a slack head angle are great exaggerated. And the benifits of a steeper head angle are highly under reported.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## afalts (Dec 7, 2011)

Litemike said:


> Did anybody else notice the amount of "fast" low knob xc tires, or no-mud tires on that wet of a course?


... It was completely dry for the Elite races. A little damp for the U23's earlier in the day. MSA dries up really quickly.

Here's a pic I happened to get of Nino that shows the tire pretty well.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

So I don't mean to be too much of a jerk about it, but you admit not having much race experience or skill, and you don't ride on challenging trails. You admit that once you do, you might like progressive geometry better. Did I get anything wrong?



Pegleg81 said:


> LMN said:
> 
> 
> > For example:
> ...


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

chomxxo said:


> So I don't mean to be too much of a jerk about it, but you admit not having much race experience or skill, and you don't ride on challenging trails. You admit that once you do, you might like progressive geometry better. Did I get anything wrong?


I think that the take away is, all courses are different, as are all riders. I know that I didn't like the quick handling of a BMC TeamElite I demo'ed, it made loose, rutty descents sketchy, especially on the brakes. Whereas my Cannondale F-Si is SUPER stable on descents and I can brake deep into corners to the point that I can bring up the rear wheel mid corner with confidence. On the other hand, my PR on The ***** hillclimb (short steep climb in my area) was on the BMC, not my bike.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Sidewalk said:


> I know that I didn't like the quick handling of a BMC TeamElite I demo'ed, it made loose, rutty descents sketchy, especially on the brakes. Whereas my Cannondale F-Si is SUPER stable on descents and I can brake deep into corners to the point that I can bring up the rear wheel mid corner with confidence


Well, if you have CDale HT, both bikes have the same HT angle - 70, while if you have the Scalpel, you have it 0.5 degrees slacker.

I think there are other factors in here


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Goran_injo said:


> Well, if you have CDale HT, both bikes have the same HT angle - 70, while if you have the Scalpel, you have it 0.5 degrees slacker.
> 
> I think there are other factors in here


It's actually 69.5, but you are right that there are other other factors. The bike as a package is very different, not just head tube angle.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tommyrod74 said:


> @LMN... as a Maxxis guy (I have very little personal experience outside of the original Crossmark and a short bit on an Ikon 2.2), what are your thoughts on the Pace, TreadLite, Race TT? Just curious. Or I guess the Crossmark II for that matter...


It seems the Pace, TreadLite, and Race TT were developed at the same time. All three of them suffer from narrow casing that really hampers their performance. They all work well for small tires but the are small tires.

I have only spent a bit of time on the Crossmark 2 and my test session was not good. But I think the culprit was the 19mm internal rims I had at the time. With those rims, I had pretty well zero braking traction. I would like to try the Crossmark 2 on a wider rim. I know other riders are using them and like them.

I think the tire that Nino is using is the replacement for the TreadLite. Looks like it should fill that gap between the Aspen and Ikon.


----------



## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN,

Are most of the pros using Maxxis TR tires or the standard casing set up tubeless?

What about those 170tpi tires, are they TR or standard casing?


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

peabody said:


> LMN,
> 
> Are most of the pros using Maxxis TR tires or the standard casing set up tubeless?
> 
> What about those 170tpi tires, are they TR or standard casing?


Most are running TR tires. Depending on the course they will run TR with EXO or TR with regular casing. The 170tpi tires are TR.


----------

