# What to look for in buying a used Subaru??



## iamtylerdurden (Mar 17, 2009)

I searched through the Car&Biker section, and read a few of the "what car" recommendations that talked about the Subarus, but had a few more questions.

background info:
Kinda settled on Forrester or Outback
Budget is $5-10 K give or take a little
Have twin boys + wife, so would like most room with best fuel economy (but since I will probably drive it more, I dig the aesthetics a little more on the Forrester)


I saw that the 2.2 engine was recommended over the 2.5, any other options better?

Any certain year models have major issues to avoid?

How "specialized" of a mechanic is needed for service/repairs?

What specific things to look at when inspecting a used Subaru awd (seals, joints, axles, etc)?

any other info is appreciated.


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## Surestick Malone (Jan 24, 2004)

From what I've heard, and unfortunately for my wallet experienced, the big failing of the 2.5L engine if a weak head-gasket (more accurately a pair of them). 

I haven't really heard of any other big issues though, as with any used car a pre-purchase inspection by the AAA or CAA or whatever is local to you should help you find any issues.


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## 86waterpumper (Nov 1, 2007)

does this headgasket issue on the 2.5 hold true for the new ones, or just the ones that are a few years old or what? In a year or two i'd like to get one of the 2010 outbacks myself...I am liking the all wheel drive and 30mpg highway on the cvt model for sure.


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## qqfob (Jul 26, 2009)

all boxer (flat) motors have headgasket issues... they leak where the oil sits. 

Subies are simple cars, with simple mechanics. Almost anybody with basic Japanese car knowledge would be able to work on it with no problem.

look for rust! Subies rust easy and quick...


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## C.P. (Sep 17, 2005)

86waterpumper said:


> does this headgasket issue on the 2.5 hold true for the new ones, or just the ones that are a few years old or what?


Phase 1 2.5 engines (with DOHC) were prone to the most of worse cases of headgasket failures. These usually fail with a big surprise, with an internal leak causing exaust to mix with coolant system, rapid overheating, resulting in a big headache and cost to fix. For the most part, these were mostly in 96 thru 99 2.5 engines.

Some Phase 2 2.5 engines (with SOHC) have had head gasket issues, mostly external failures, which typically dont surprise owners with a road-side failure ( with an external coolant or oil leak, you might be able to drive like this for quite some time). These were in 2000 thru 2002/3 engines.

Subaru has since redesigned the Head Gaskets (they are now similar to the multi-layered ones used in their turbo models), which if you find an older model with recent work done replacing with the newer styled HG, it will likely last you for a long time w/ no headaches.


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

look for a manual transmission, the 4eat is durable but does not let you take full advantage of the great (2004+ 2.5l) engine.


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## pointerDixie214 (Feb 10, 2009)

Basically what they said. Head gaskets are famous in the 2.5. I have a 2006 Outback and a 2003 Forester. No issues yet. 

Great solid cars. Probably the best passenger cars on the road for a decent price. (Coming from a person that has owned Hondas, Acuras, Nissans, and one each of Toyota, and Mazda).


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## iamtylerdurden (Mar 17, 2009)

thanks guys. wasnt on my list but just came across a 2002 WRX wagon around $8K. Specs say fuel mileage isnt far from the non turbo (under normal driving).

From the looks of the ad it may seem to be owned by someone who hasnt dogged it out too bad. 

Any positives or negatives for thie WRX vs the Forester?


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## jcaino (May 26, 2007)

Also, if its got over 100k miles, it should have a timing belt replacement (rmanuf. recommended change at 115k I believe)


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

iamtylerdurden said:


> thanks guys. wasnt on my list but just came across a 2002 WRX wagon around $8K. Specs say fuel mileage isnt far from the non turbo (under normal driving).
> 
> From the looks of the ad it may seem to be owned by someone who hasnt dogged it out too bad.
> 
> Any positives or negatives for thie WRX vs the Forester?


Absolutely love my '02 bugeye WRX wagon. Best car I have had and at age 58 I have had a few! Hope to have it for many more years


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

qqfob said:


> all boxer (flat) motors have headgasket issues... they leak where the oil sits.
> look for rust! Subies rust easy and quick...


Bull Sh!t


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## iamtylerdurden (Mar 17, 2009)

what kind of price is associated with the timing belt change?


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## Econoline (Mar 5, 2004)

iamtylerdurden said:


> what kind of price is associated with the timing belt change?


You might check some of the Subaru specific sites like www.subaruforester.org. It's not just the timing belt but possibly also tensioners and water pump that would be replaced. I've heard of numbers like $1000 to have a shop do the whole job. Doing it yourself or just doing the belt could be much lower.


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## Surestick Malone (Jan 24, 2004)

Econoline said:


> You might check some of the Subaru specific sites like www.subaruforester.org. It's not just the timing belt but possibly also tensioners and water pump that would be replaced. I've heard of numbers like $1000 to have a shop do the whole job. Doing it yourself or just doing the belt could be much lower.


nasioc.com is another good site for Subaru info. A lot of knowledge about Subarus in general, not just the Impreza.


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## Econoline (Mar 5, 2004)

iamtylerdurden said:


> thanks guys. wasnt on my list but just came across a 2002 WRX wagon around $8K. Specs say fuel mileage isnt far from the non turbo (under normal driving).
> 
> From the looks of the ad it may seem to be owned by someone who hasnt dogged it out too bad.
> 
> Any positives or negatives for thie WRX vs the Forester?


I had a 2004 WRX for a few years, 5MT and 2.0L engine. Couple of things I didn't like about the WRX.

The ground clearance is pretty limited so most dirt roads had to be taken slowly and carefully to avoid scraping the underbody, and I eventually did scratch things up.

The other issue was the lack of low end torque from the 2.0L engine. That engine never lets you forget that most of it's power comes from the turbo, so the rpm's needed to be kept up. I remember starting off from a light once, uphill, A/C on, several passengers, and it was really doggy. But once up to speed all is forgiven.

I'm actually looking for a Forester XT now as I do miss the WRX. I think the 2.5L engine and increased ground clearance will resolve my complaints about the WRX.


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## Stryder75 (Feb 2, 2010)

C.P. said:


> Phase 1 2.5 engines (with DOHC) were prone to the most of worse cases of headgasket failures. These usually fail with a big surprise, with an internal leak causing exaust to mix with coolant system, rapid overheating, resulting in a big headache and cost to fix. For the most part, these were mostly in 96 thru 99 2.5 engines.
> 
> Some Phase 2 2.5 engines (with SOHC) have had head gasket issues, mostly external failures, which typically dont surprise owners with a road-side failure ( with an external coolant or oil leak, you might be able to drive like this for quite some time). These were in 2000 thru 2002/3 engines.
> 
> Subaru has since redesigned the Head Gaskets (they are now similar to the multi-layered ones used in their turbo models), which if you find an older model with recent work done replacing with the newer styled HG, it will likely last you for a long time w/ no headaches.


I have a 2002 Outback 2.5 with 129,060 mi and I have just noticed the head gasket leak on my last oil change. Runs about $1100 to fix as the whole engine has to be hosted out to replace. Other than that the only other thing I have had replaced is the front CV axles (started popping around 125K). It has been a great car and my next purchase will be another Subaru.


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## C.P. (Sep 17, 2005)

Stryder75 said:


> I have a 2002 Outback 2.5 with 129,060 mi and I have just noticed the head gasket leak on my last oil change. Runs about $1100 to fix as the whole engine has to be hosted out to replace.


If it's normally aspirated SOHC, the engine does not HAVE to be pulled to do a HG job (2000 to present). Some mechanics do it, b/c they had to for the 96-99 DOHC Outbacks (no room at all). But, it's not many more steps to pull the engine anyways if you've gone as far as you have to, to do this job, so some mechs do it anyways. It certainly makes putting the head(s) back on an easy chore.


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

iamtylerdurden said:


> thanks guys. wasnt on my list but just came across a 2002 WRX wagon around $8K. Specs say fuel mileage isnt far from the non turbo (under normal driving).
> 
> From the looks of the ad it may seem to be owned by someone who hasnt dogged it out too bad.
> 
> Any positives or negatives for thie WRX vs the Forester?


The WRX does require premium fuel however. And I find it hard to drive mine "normal"


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## AWDfreak (Jan 28, 2007)

C.P. said:


> Phase 1 2.5 engines (with DOHC) were prone to the most of worse cases of headgasket failures. These usually fail with a big surprise, with an internal leak causing exaust to mix with coolant system, rapid overheating, resulting in a big headache and cost to fix. For the most part, these were mostly in 96 thru 99 2.5 engines.
> 
> Some Phase 2 2.5 engines (with SOHC) have had head gasket issues, mostly external failures, which typically dont surprise owners with a road-side failure ( with an external coolant or oil leak, you might be able to drive like this for quite some time). These were in 2000 thru 2002/3 engines.
> 
> Subaru has since redesigned the Head Gaskets (they are now similar to the multi-layered ones used in their turbo models), which if you find an older model with recent work done replacing with the newer styled HG, it will likely last you for a long time w/ no headaches.


All that you've said is entirely true. I have a 1999 Subaru Legacy Outback Limited wagon (with the 5-speed manual  ) and the head gaskets blew at about mid 80,000 of mileage. However, after getting the gaskets changed to genuine Subaru gaskets, I've had no major issues 

The dealer recommended the Holt/Subaru cooling system conditioner, which isn't very helpful for Phase I, but crucial for Phase II EJ25 engines. The Holt/Subaru cooling system conditioner is necessary for Phase II as it should eliminate the head gasket leaks.

To sum it all up for you:

2.5L engine in Legacy (including Outback) is extremely prone to head gasket failure model years 1999 and before. This Phase I engine has also been installed in a couple model year Foresters and one year of the Impreza (1998 2.5RS). The Phase I has the engine code EJ25D. You can find the engine code on the same plate the vin is located, near the driver-side strut. If the head gaskets were changed to genuine Subaru head gaskets, you should be fine. If they are not genuine Subaru headgaskets, expect more troubles. And yes, pre-1997 2.2L (EJ22) Subaru engines are bulletproof. Some EJ22 short blocks are actually used on highly modified Subarus.


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## qqfob (Jul 26, 2009)

BlackCanoeDog said:


> Bull Sh!t


For your information, I'm a dealer certified technician in NY. I have worked on Porsches and Subies, and they all have (or will eventually have) oil leaks or oil burning issues through headgaskets, valve covers, and valve guides. It's just how gravity and oil works on boxer engines. And being in NYC, next to the ocean, as well as the salt they lay down every time it snows, cars rust unusually quick around here. Since Subies are awd, people tend to love driving them in the snow/salt and will definitely be the first candidate to rust. Since they are cars, and not trucks, they do not have the same anti corrosion coatings underneath as the other winter mobiles you might see.

As for a headgasket job, it only takes about an hour for an experienced mechanic to pull the whole engine out, definitely one of the easiest cars to do that since the engine harness disconnects and transmission bolts can be accessed from up top. It only makes sense to do HG work with the engine out since the heads open up towards the side.

If you do a HG, the timing belt comes off so you might as well change that too. If you do not need a HG, the timing belt is one of the easiest to change. You have plenty of room up front to take all the covers and brackets off, and if you use an OEM timing belt, they are pre-marked where each pulley should point, so there is no need to even look it up in a book (or computer).

IMO, $1000 sounds about right. It takes about a day to do. Let me know if you need work done in NY.


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## AWDfreak (Jan 28, 2007)

qqfob said:


> For your information, I'm a dealer certified technician in NY. I have worked on *Porsches and Subies, and they all have (or will eventually have) oil leaks or oil burning issues through headgaskets, valve covers, and valve guides.* It's just how gravity and oil works on boxer engines. And being in NYC, next to the ocean, as well as the salt they lay down every time it snows, cars rust unusually quick around here. Since Subies are awd, people tend to love driving them in the snow/salt and will definitely be the first candidate to rust. Since they are cars, and not trucks, they do not have the same anti corrosion coatings underneath as the other winter mobiles you might see.
> 
> As for a headgasket job, it only takes about an hour for an experienced mechanic to pull the whole engine out, definitely one of the easiest cars to do that since the engine harness disconnects and transmission bolts can be accessed from up top. It only makes sense to do HG work with the engine out since the heads open up towards the side.
> 
> ...


One of the Subaru message boards I frequent say that it's normal for Subarus to leak oil out the heads. So I can safely assume it's the boxer/flat engine layout that does that. Yup, what you say is indeed true.

I asked the dealer to check the oil leak that was coming from the passenger cylinder bank, but I eventually dismissed it as normal (I check my oil religiously, it's pretty much full all the time). However, the dealer's service department may have mis-diagnosed my EJ25D, which they claimed to have engine knock. An independent shop said that my engine was perfectly fine.


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## jojotherider (May 20, 2009)

wrx is great, but don't plan on taking more than the twins and the wife. space is limited. doable, but limited. I very much miss my 02 wrx.

as far as premium goes, out here in WA, the price of Premium is typically $.20 more expensive than regular. x14 gal(ish) tank, you're looking at a $2.80 difference. That's not that big of deal to me. The key (as already mentioned) is driving it normal. I never did.

Subarus are definitely easy to work on. Especially when its easy to find instructions online at websites such as www.nasioc.com or www.scoobymods.com. I didn't know much about cars, but after searching through sites such as those, I've done suspension, exhaust, seats, stereo, oil, spark plugs, brake pads/rotors, a/c belt, power steering belt, fuel filter and probably some other things i can't think of. Its fairly easy stuff, but there's no way I could've done it without having a community behind it. Honestly, when it comes to buying a car, I like the idea of having a community like that. It helps you make more informed decisions about the work that needs to be done on your car. I'm personally on the fence about doing my own timing belt. the instructions online make it look very easy. Just a matter of having the confidence to do it.

Subarus I've owned since 2002 (in order)
2002 Outback
2002 WRX
2000 2.5RS
2005 Outback Ltd

I currently own the last two vehicles. buying hitches this year for both and a hitch mount rack for my bike. 

I think the Outback has more space than the forester. Or maybe its just different space. The outback is longer, but the forester is taller. If you're still looking at the WRX, take a look in the area on the passenger side behind/below the intercooler. You should see the turbo. If there is a heatshield i think its pretty safe to say that it hasn't ever been modified. a very typical modification on the WRX is a downpipe (exhaust pipe off of the turbo). Usually, an after market downpipe is too big for the heatshield so a lot of people just toss it aside. If you can see the piping (whether stock pipe or aftermarket), its probably been modified. This doesn't necessarily mean the car is in bad shape, it usually just means that the previous owner got some use out of the car. On my WRX, I modified it and drove the heck out of it from 60k to 112k before selling it. It was still running very strong with the mild power modifications (turbo back exhaust and ECU reflash). except for routine maintenance, I feel like I could've drove the heck out of it for much longer.

alas, the cost of living associated with having a child and going back to a single income prevailed and i "downgraded" to the 2.5RS.

sorry for the long winded answer. I enjoy my subarus.

-joel


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

jojotherider said:


> wrx is great, but don't plan on taking more than the twins and the wife. space is limited. doable, but limited. I very much miss my 02 wrx.
> 
> as far as premium goes, out here in WA, the price of Premium is typically $.20 more expensive than regular. x14 gal(ish) tank, you're looking at a $2.80 difference. That's not that big of deal to me. The key (as already mentioned) is driving it normal. I never did.
> 
> If you're still looking at the WRX, take a look in the area on the passenger side behind/below the intercooler. You should see the turbo. If there is a heatshield i think its pretty safe to say that it hasn't ever been modified. a very typical modification on the WRX is a downpipe (exhaust pipe off of the turbo). Usually, an after market downpipe is too big for the heatshield so a lot of people just toss it aside. If you can see the piping (whether stock pipe or aftermarket), its probably been modified. This doesn't necessarily mean the car is in bad shape, it usually just means that the previous owner got some use out of the car. On my WRX, I modified it and drove the heck out of it from 60k to 112k before selling it. It was still running very strong with the mild power modifications (turbo back exhaust and ECU reflash). except for routine maintenance, I feel like I could've drove the heck out of it for much longer.


Actually it's a 15.9 gallon tank, the fuel gauge is pretty conservative. Also, I simply trimmed my heat shield, from the engine-bay it looks normal, despite the aftermarket downpipe and exhaust (which also looks non-conspicuous). You can also get aftermarket heat-shields.


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## jojotherider (May 20, 2009)

sure the tank is that big, but i rarely put more than 14 gals in. I didn't run it to completely empty. even then that would be approx a $3.18 difference on a tank. And a lot of people just cast the heatshield aside but not everyone. I had originally written that most people do that, but figured there are still quite a few people that either cut the heatshield or have aftermarket heatshield. Still, i think if you're looking for it, you might see it. Do you have a picture to post for the OP of what it looks like?

the fuel light must come on when there's 2.5 gals left then. I actually don't know how big the tank is for the RS. I should look that up.

-joel


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## Abraxas (Mar 2, 2009)

The 2006+ Naturally Aspirated 2.5L have revised cams that deliver more power.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

jojotherider said:


> sure the tank is that big, but i rarely put more than 14 gals in. I didn't run it to completely empty. even then that would be approx a $3.18 difference on a tank. And a lot of people just cast the heatshield aside but not everyone. I had originally written that most people do that, but figured there are still quite a few people that either cut the heatshield or have aftermarket heatshield. Still, i think if you're looking for it, you might see it. Do you have a picture to post for the OP of what it looks like?
> 
> the fuel light must come on when there's 2.5 gals left then. I actually don't know how big the tank is for the RS. I should look that up.
> 
> -joel


It would be too difficult for me to take a picture and "prove" that it's not stock, in the sense that it simply looks stock and you can't really get around it that far to see the difference. It would be better to have pics of a stock WRX IMO. The big pink "STI" gives mine away as not stock, but otherwise it's hard to tell. I reworked the splitter pretty nicely to fit the intercooler, the borla exhaust looks very similer to the stock exhaust on an 05 (mine's an 04). I don't have any pics except for larger ones where you can't see the detail of the heat shield, but it's the lower part anyway that's trimmed, not exactly easy to see nor helpfull IMO, better to somehow get pics of a stock setup.


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## iamtylerdurden (Mar 17, 2009)

Any of these a better deal than the other?? Loan value on the WRX is a little low because of the year, but it has less miles than the Forester.

Forester price looks good compared to NADA but havent read much about the turbo Fozzies. Plus it does have more than a year of my drivings miles on it than the WRX.

Pros/Cons on the comparison?? Kinda crunched on time right now, but I could hold our for a little while.

Also, there is no way I can go full asking price on the WRX.

Forester

WRX Wagon


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## jcaino (May 26, 2007)

Hopefully that Forester has had a timing belt change - the WRX is just about due, if it hasn't had one already.


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## MilesToEmpty (Mar 6, 2010)

look at the classifieds on nasioc.com Beware, there is alot of ass-hattery. 

And for those thay say you dont have to pull the motor to do a HG job... you dont, unless your mech cant get eh cam gears off.

And my 00 2.5RS has 193k on it, and the HG's are just starting to show oil build up.


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## iamtylerdurden (Mar 17, 2009)

I test drove the WRX yesterday, 1 Forester, and 2 Outbacks (Legacy). The WRX was fairly clean, not worth anything close to the asking price. Forester I looked at was in rough shape.

Size of the Legacy Outback compared to the others was substantial enough that it was the deal sealer.....plus the one I picked was by far the best condition.

2001 Legacy Outback Wagon
Manual trans
2.5 L

Rubber cargo area mat, new brakes, and under bumper trailer hitch were all pluses. Thanks for all your help guys.


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## journey (Jan 27, 2004)

*Outback is good for family*

Hi - Looks like you made a good choice for the budget you had and for the family that you need to transport.

Until recently, I was driving a '95 Legacy (Sedan). It was the 2.2L so I did not have the head gasket issue. I drove it 90K+ miles in 5 years, and the only reason I am no longer driving it, is that I had an accident in it in Jan. As it was not the wagon, it was good around town but the few times we took trips in it, it was very cramp with the luggage, pillows, etc. for me, my wife & two daughters (tweenagers at the time). Having the wagon or an Outback would have been really nice, especially for longer trips.

With a WRX (i.e., an Impreza with the turbo), you are paying for it's sports car nature. Additionally, in your price range, you would have to go with a model with a 2.0L engine--these are fine cars but the 2.0L does not pull very well until the turbo kicks in (around 3K). Thus, if you had all the family in the and started excelerating up a hill, it would be slow going until the turbo kicked in. Then, there would be a sudden amnt of acceleration. Some people like the rush but with kids in the car... Additionally, there is not much leg room in the back. For little kids, this may not be an issue but when they get a few years older... One other point is that the WRX (and regular Impreza's for that matter) and about 1" lower to the ground than an Outback or Forester. This may not be an issue for some, but for others it is a big issue.

The original Forester (i.e., model year 2008 and earlier) were based on the Impreza. Thus, will you have more carrying space than a WRX, the rear leg room is limited like the WRX. 2009+ have more leg room, but the price...

Myself, I recently purchased a 2006 WRX wagon. I was looking at Foresters and Bajas as well but came across a car that was really well maintained. I needed a daily driver with enough to car with enough room for carrying myself & one other out of town. If we need more space, we take my wife's car.

Enjoy your outback and welcome to the community! Be sure to check out the online communities. Nasioc.com is pretty good for Impreza/WRX/STI but it does have a Legacy forum. There are several sites that are focused on Legacy's / Outbacks.


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