# $30 to install a headset...  Are you kidding me?



## Ratman (May 13, 2005)

Should I take my $30, add some $$, and just go buy a headset press from E-Bay or should I stop being a cheap bastard and just pay my shop to do it? $30 seems kinda high especially since I only paid $35 for the Cane Creek S-2 headset I'm trying to get installed.

What do the masses think?


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## gearless (Jan 19, 2004)

*I....*

I bought My own press for the convienince, not because of shop labor cost. In the long run it has paid for itself many times over just because I always have it available.(Like late night bike building!) :thumbsup:


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## Angus (Jan 20, 2004)

I am all for having tools, but unless you plan on building new bikes all the time I would probally go to the bike shop, also in your rant you didn't give me enough information to justify the install charge, are you putting the headset on an existing bike that includes removal of the old one? if thats the case $30 is fair thats over 1/2 labor, if just installing the cups on a new frame we would charge $15...


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## Call_me_Clyde (Oct 27, 2004)

*DIY headset press*

I say do it yourself, but make your own headset press from a long, large diameter bolt and a bunch of washers. Speedub.nate and Nat both have threads somewhere in these forums that show just how simple it is. Ghetto? Yes, but I've used it on several occasions and it's worked just fine. If the DIY ghetto press doesn't work, then by all means, invest in a real one. Soon enough it will pay for itself.

Bob


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## fatboyp (Sep 26, 2004)

For reference purposes, my LBS removed my old cups, installed my new ones and installed my new fork (including cutting the steerer tube) for $20 CDN. This leads me to believe $30 USD your LBS wants is at the high end of the range. I would either just buy your own press, make your own press (using a threaded rod and washers and bolts) or use a mallet and peice of wood like many do on this site.


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## LititzDude (Apr 3, 2004)

*This is the issue....*



Ratman said:


> Should I take my $30, add some $$, and just go buy a headset press from E-Bay or should I stop being a cheap bastard and just pay my shop to do it? $30 seems kinda high especially since I only paid $35 for the Cane Creek S-2 headset I'm trying to get installed.
> 
> What do the masses think?


You should be happy they will do it.

"I only paid $35 for the Cane Creek S-2 headset I'm trying to get installed"
If you bought the headset from mail order, and it sounds like you did. Then you should try taking your own hamburger to Burger King and see how far it gets you.

Not to sound rough, but it's stuff like this, that drives LBS to have a bad name. From their shoes, they are doing you a favor, despite being mad about. Most likely showing up at the shop on a Saturday at noon?

I'm off my soap box


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## quaffimodo (May 25, 2004)

First let me say how grateful I am to have The Bicycle Repair Collective here in Portland where a reasonable hourly shop charge gives the competent do-it-yourselfer access to tools like this that it simply isn't practical to own.

Next, I feel your pain. I've got a little neighborhood "consumer" bike shop that I try to patronize whenever I can, though they rarely have what I'm looking for. Been going in there for years now. I stopped in several months back looking for a freewheel remover that had disappeared from my collection. They didn't have one, but offered to pull my freewheel _for five bucks more than the tool would have cost had they had it._ I thanked the owner for helping to reduce my mail-order angst and walked back out through his door for the last time.

Finally, thirty bucks sounds about right to R&R a headset. I'd expect any minor facing required for a clean installation to be done.


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## ferday (Jan 15, 2004)

> I say do it yourself, but make your own headset press from a long, large diameter bolt and a bunch of washers


100% agree

i have used my home-made headset press literally dozen times, it works fantastic. cost me about $10 for a big giant bolt, bunch of washers and a couple nuts.

search the tooltime forum for headset press, lots of pictures and suggestions for making a good tool.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

To do the job yourself, _properly_, you will need a headset cup removal tool, crown race puller, bearing cup press and crown race setter. That's $300+ if you were to buy the tools from the shop that is willing to do the work for %10 of that. That's the cost that they are competing with, not the cost of some hack with blunt screw driver, a threaded rod and a handfull of washers and nuts.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Call_me_Clyde said:


> I say do it yourself, but make your own headset press from a long, large diameter bolt and a bunch of washers. Speedub.nate and Nat both have threads somewhere in these forums that show just how simple it is. Ghetto? Yes, but I've used it on several occasions and it's worked just fine. If the DIY ghetto press doesn't work, then by all means, invest in a real one. Soon enough it will pay for itself.
> 
> Bob


Yep, $13 in parts from the hardware store and I have a headset press AND a headset cup remover. I kick myself for waiting this long.


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## FlatFender (Aug 28, 2006)

Ive got a piece of threaded rod with 2 nuts, and some washers. Works like a charm. 

To remove cups, Ive got a piece of copper pipe that I cut to look like the Park tool. Also, works like a charm. Maybe have $20 total in to it


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## PaddyH (Aug 23, 2004)

LititzDude said:


> You should be happy they will do it.
> 
> "I only paid $35 for the Cane Creek S-2 headset I'm trying to get installed"
> If you bought the headset from mail order, and it sounds like you did. Then you should try taking your own hamburger to Burger King and see how far it gets you.
> ...


Word. How much would've they charged if you'd have bought the headset from them? Prolly nothin'.... 
$30 dollars is more than fair and better for your bike versus bush-league diy press's...whether charging for a service gives the shop a bad name depends a lot on how cheap a lot of folks are nowadays...


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## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*Thirty bucks!*

Thats a good deal in my part of the woods.

Look at it this way: Plumber to change a flapper in your toilet-$55 service call + $6 for the flapper. Auto repair at dealer-$75/hr + parts. Mold Abatement-$231 service call and $85/hr. Electrician service call $65 + parts. Most trades won't let you bring in your own stuff bought elsewhere. You get the picture.

Long term, my LBS has saved me tons of $$$. Free adjustment, discounted parts/service, and overall welcoming attitude when all I want to do is shoot the bull on a Saturday afternoon.
You get what you give.
jC


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## xKREDx (Aug 8, 2006)

It costs $50 at my LBS but thats also in canadian dollars

EDIT: oops I worded that wrong it was $50 at my LBS for the headset and for them to install the headset and they also took out my old headset.

The headset I bought from them and they installed it was a FSA Pig.


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## Eric Hoefer (Jan 19, 2004)

For reference the Home Made headset press they are talking about would look something like this


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## duotone (Dec 31, 2006)

Be resourceful...


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## Locoman (Jan 12, 2004)

Reasonable if they had to face or ream maybe.


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## Ratman (May 13, 2005)

*Well I certainly sparked a debate didn't I.....*

Anyway, I made an appointment to have the headset installed this Thrusday by my LBS for $30. And to the guy (LititzDude) who wondered if I bought the headset via mail order the answer is no. I actually purchased it from a co-worker who had it sitting on his desk still wrapped in its original package. You weren't sounding rough. Your point is actually well taken and I try to support my local bike shop whenever I can.

Thanks guys for all the responses.....

:thumbsup:


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## steevo (Nov 17, 2004)

PaddyH said:


> Word. How much would've they charged if you'd have bought the headset from them? Prolly nothin'....




I'd like to know where these shops are that install parts for free if you just buy the part from them. That has NEVER been my experience.

$30 is not bad especially if they do the facing and reaming.

I had a shop try to charge me $90 for installing a headset with facing and reaming. They told me part of the charge goes towards the expense of maintaining the cutting tools. They also applied a 20% upcharge because I didn't buy the parts from them. I told them that was BS and asked what if the part was given as a gift, why should I be punished for that? I got them down to $60 and I'll never go back there again.


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## xKREDx (Aug 8, 2006)

Heres a thread on home made headset press's by Speeddub.Nate

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=1190007


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

I think $30 is a going rate for pressing a headset brought in from the outside. 

Keep in mind, that a press is over $100 at wholesale, so the shop has to recoup that cost somehow. Not to mention, doing it right takes some training, a good shop wont let their "beginner" wrenches use a press.

On the other hand, that is what I would charge in your case. Labor is usually free for high-end items bought in store, so even though MSRP for your Cane Creek headset is probably $60, you still would have come out ahead as that price would have included install.


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## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

LititzDude said:


> You should be happy they will do it.
> 
> "I only paid $35 for the Cane Creek S-2 headset I'm trying to get installed"
> If you bought the headset from mail order, and it sounds like you did. Then you should try taking your own hamburger to Burger King and see how far it gets you.
> ...


This is ridiculous. The Burger King analogy is simply off. A better analogy is the auto repair shop at the dealership. Under your theory, these repair shops should refuse to repair any car not purchased at the dealership.

The LBS offers two services, sales and repairs. The charge should be the same whether the part was purchased at the shop or not. If LBS's install parts for free as long as you buy the part there, then the LBS should charge the profit it would have made from a headset purchase.

LBSs have a "bad name" because they have crappy attitudes, crappy customer service and crappy prices. And, worst of all, there are too many arrogant shop wrenches that think they are the messiah.


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## gatman (Jun 10, 2004)

I have used two 2x4's and a hammer for about 15 years to put head sets on. A good old hammer and long screwdriver will take them out too, you just need to take your time and work around all the edges. :thumbsup: 

It has worked on numerous MTB, BMX and road bikes.

Those aluminum ones that were in style in the min to late 90's were a bit harder.....:madman:


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

duotone said:


> Be resourceful...


OH GOD NO!!!

Now Im not a big fan of the DIY presses because they wont hold the headset cups parallel, which could result in ovalized headtubes.....

But using a hammer to press fit something? Press fits require a constant pressure to slide in, using jarring pressure from a hammer will do nothing but destroy your headtube. This is a bad idea from any angle.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

Dirdir said:


> This is ridiculous. The Burger King analogy is simply off. A better analogy is the auto repair shop at the dealership. Under your theory, these repair shops should refuse to repair any car not purchased at the dealership.


I think the analogy is pretty right on. In the auto dealership case, it would like asking them to install parts that you bought somewhere else.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Ratman said:


> Anyway,* I made an appointment to have the headset installed* this Thrusday by my LBS for $30. And to the guy (LititzDude) who wondered if I bought the headset via mail order the answer is no. I actually purchased it from a co-worker who had it sitting on his desk still wrapped in its original package. You weren't sounding rough. Your point is actually well taken and I try to support my local bike shop whenever I can.
> 
> Thanks guys for all the responses.....
> 
> :thumbsup:


Your LBS takes appointments? Like your dentist or attorney? Good, because they're making the same hourly rate for that 5 minute job (pressing the headset). If they're reaming and facing then $30 is reasonable.

I still am amazed at how scared people are of pressing in their own headset. It's easier than swapping pedals. Oh no! Don't swap your own pedals! You may cross thread something or slip a wrench! Take it to your LBS! Brrrrrr!


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*I agree..*



chequamagon said:


> OH GOD NO!!!
> 
> Now Im not a big fan of the DIY presses because they wont hold the headset cups parallel, which could result in ovalized headtubes.....
> 
> But using a hammer to press fit something? Press fits require a constant pressure to slide in, using jarring pressure from a hammer will do nothing but destroy your headtube. This is a bad idea from any angle.


 There are two ways you can really screw up a frame; installing the headset and/or the bottom bracket. If you follow the golden rule for a bottom bracket (never use a tool until you ready to torque it tight) you'll be fine. The golden rule to headsets is pony up the money. Your S-2 headset has alloy cups that will wrinkle in a heartbeat. If you have steel cups and frame you can afford to replace than hammer on. The price you pay for screwing up your bike is the cost of DIY tuition.



Nat said:


> I still am amazed at how scared people are of pressing in their own headset.


 Nat your a brave man:thumbsup:

1G1G, Brad

BTW, I have that headset on two of my bikes, but I did have a bike mechanic install both of them and they both marveled at how soft the cups were. Once it's in it should give you years of service.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

I've swapped headsets with DIY tools and with shop tools. The shop tools do it faster and with less chance of damaging your frame, fork and the headset cups. There is simply no comparison.

Even if its a 5 min. job, we're talking about removing the fork, pounding out the cups, pulling the race, cleaning and re-greasing the crown and headtube, installing the new race, pressing the cups, re-installing the fork etc. That hardly compares with switching pedals


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

chequamagon said:


> OH GOD NO!!!
> 
> Now Im not a big fan of the DIY presses because they wont hold the headset cups parallel, which could result in ovalized headtubes.....
> 
> But using a hammer to press fit something? Press fits require a constant pressure to slide in, using jarring pressure from a hammer will do nothing but destroy your headtube. This is a bad idea from any angle.


That's why you watch to make sure it goes in straight. If the rod is centered, it will absolutely go in straight. Even if it's a little off you will must likely be fine, but in any event you do it slowly and use your eyes and you won't mess anything up. If the rod is a little off center, just tap it back.

Even with a real press you have to watch what you are doing.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I've swapped headsets with DIY tools and with shop tools. The shop tools do it faster and with less chance of damaging your frame, fork and the headset cups. There is simply no comparison.
> 
> Even if its a 5 min. job, we're talking about removing the fork, pounding out the cups, pulling the race, cleaning and re-greasing the crown and headtube, installing the new race, pressing the cups, re-installing the fork etc. That hardly compares with switching pedals


All that work is still simple. It's not f'ing surgery. You have more chance of screwing up your non-drive pedal (since it's reverse threaded) than you do pressing in a headset. It's a tube that slides into another tube. That's all!

Home tools are just that: tools for your home shop. Of course they don't compare to shop-grade tools. Likewise, mini-tools are tools are made to be portable. They are not as nice as home tools and much less nice than shop tools, but still a 5mm hex key on a mini-tool will still get the job done even if there's no comparison to long Park P-handle.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

Nat said:


> All that work is still simple. It's not f'ing surgery.


exactly, and thats why its $30. Remember, I gotta pay rent and eat food too, and someone is paying me to take care of that headset.

If it was surgery, it would cost $300. I think I payed somewhere in that ballpark for a few-minute consult and small slice when I had an issue with my toe.

So for the same amount of time, I am charging only 10% of what a doc does? Sounds like a bargain!


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## Ratman (May 13, 2005)

Nat said:


> Your LBS takes appointments? Like your dentist or attorney? Good, because they're making the same hourly rate for that 5 minute job (pressing the headset). If they're reaming and facing then $30 is reasonable.
> 
> I still am amazed at how scared people are of pressing in their own headset. It's easier than swapping pedals. Oh no! Don't swap your own pedals! You may cross thread something or slip a wrench! Take it to your LBS! Brrrrrr!


My LBS is sort of uppity and the counter guy I talked to on the phone said the repair shop was booked solid 'til Thursday so they took my name and told me when to drop the frame off and when i should expect it to be ready. As for the reaming or facing of the headtube; I didn't ask for this service as part of the quote but these guys are usually pretty good about doing a job the right way. I guess that's all the more reason I need a kick in the ass for complaining about the $30 to install in the 1st place.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

aka brad said:


> There are two ways you can really screw up a frame; installing the headset and/or the bottom bracket. If you follow the golden rule for a bottom bracket (never use a tool until you ready to torque it tight) you'll be fine. The golden rule to headsets is pony up the money. Your S-2 headset has alloy cups that will wrinkle in a heartbeat. If you have steel cups and frame you can afford to replace than hammer on. The price you pay for screwing up your bike is the cost of DIY tuition.
> 
> Nat your a brave man:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Anyone who is brave enough to install and remove his own bottom bracket should be brave enough to press in his own headset.

Besides, say you really _do_ mess up your headset or frame. You can always buy a new one! In my line of work, if I screw up someone calls a lawyer. _That_ makes me sweat.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

chequamagon said:


> exactly, and thats why its $30. Remember, I gotta pay rent and eat food too, and someone is paying me to take care of that headset.
> 
> If it was surgery, it would cost $300. I think I payed somewhere in that ballpark for a few-minute consult and small slice when I had an issue with my toe.
> 
> So for the same amount of time, I am charging only 10% of what a doc does? Sounds like a bargain!


If it were surgery it wouldn't take 5 minutes.

Hey, why didn't you slice your own toe?


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## eccentricbottombracket (Nov 13, 2006)

Locoman said:


> Reasonable if they had to face or ream maybe.


Half the 'mechanics' out there don't even know what a facing tool looks like, let alone how to use it. I use the long bolt and washer method. I will buy or make a rocket tool for removal one of these days...


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

Its simple if you don't value your equipment or your workmanship


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## scmartin (Jan 23, 2006)

I make friends w/ the shop rats, bring in a sixer of something tasty around closing time and my headsets just seem to get installed.


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## BCBlur (Nov 23, 2004)

Same here. 2 beers and a conversation gets it done every time, but I'm in there a lot.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Its simple if you don't value your equipment or your workmanship


That's sneaky! People work on their own bikes all the time, to the extent that they're comfortable. I hope you are not trying to guilt people into taking _all_ of their repairs into a shop. You could also accuse someone who changes his cables or brake pads at home of not valuing his equipment or workmanship.

How many people reading this do their own work in their garage? Just about everyone to some extent, I'd guess.

At one time none of us knew how to fix a flat. Then most of us learned how and now do it ourselves. Some people still take their flats to an LBS to get fixed because they don't know how. That's okay.

At one time we didn't know how to install a chain. Then most of us learned how and now do it ourselves. Some people still take their bike to an LBS to get a new chain installed, since they don't know how. That's okay.

Anyone who has actually tried a home headset press will attest to how simple it is. The rest will take their headset to an LBS to get it installed. That's okay.
*
Please don't tell me that I don't value my workmanship just because I like to learn how to work on my bike myself. That's rude.*

Look at this "official" Park tool. The "official" tool has rubber-covered handles. The home tool needs wrenches. Both have flat, round surfaces that move together on a threaded rod. They are fundamentally the same.


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## gatman (Jun 10, 2004)

chequamagon said:


> OH GOD NO!!!
> 
> Now Im not a big fan of the DIY presses because they wont hold the headset cups parallel, which could result in ovalized headtubes.....
> 
> But using a hammer to press fit something? Press fits require a constant pressure to slide in, using jarring pressure from a hammer will do nothing but destroy your headtube. This is a bad idea from any angle.


Well if it is so easy to mess up a frame, then I should just guess that I have been lucky!! I have lost count how many headsets and bmx cranks I have installed with a hammer and 2x4's. Never had a problem yet??

Someday I would like to get a real press, but I just have not picked one up yet. I aways think about it when I am installing a new headset around midnight...... :madman:


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

LititzDude said:


> You should be happy they will do it.
> 
> "I only paid $35 for the Cane Creek S-2 headset I'm trying to get installed"
> If you bought the headset from mail order, and it sounds like you did. Then you should try taking your own hamburger to Burger King and see how far it gets you.
> ...


What the hell is this? They're doing me a favor by my patronizing their shop? They're mad that I'd think about using their services? WTF? Nice business approach.


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## marshaki (Apr 28, 2006)

Nat said:


> What the hell is this? They're doing me a favor by my patronizing their shop? They're mad that I'd think about using their services? WTF? Nice business approach.


Haha, beat me to it. Its a market-based transaction not a favor.

Also, its interesting to hear the difference between this thread and those on some automotive forums I'm on. There, it often leans towards the "I don't trust anyone else to work on my car," idea, despite the far greater level of complexity than on a bicycle.

But I guess the whole social/economic aspect of it - "Support your LBS," doesn't come in to play with cars. I've never heard anyone say support your local stealership, although independent mechanics are a different story.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

I fully support people doing 100% of the assembly and maintenance on their own bike. Provided, that is, they have the right tools and know how to use them. And by "right" tool I don't even specify store bought.

You keep focusing on pressing the cups with a threaded rod. That replaces *one* of the *four* specialized tools required to fully replace a headset. What is your solution for the other three? I'm betting they don't mimic the Park versions quite so well as your press.

Anyone who thinks that a hammer and screwdriver, socket extender, etc. are the appropriate tools for removing crown races and headset cups is hack, plain and simple. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, in this case kind to the people who might be duped into taking bunk advice.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I fully support people doing 100% of the assembly and maintenance on their own bike. Provided, that is, they have the right tools and know how to use them. And by "right" tool I don't even specify store bought.
> 
> You keep focusing on pressing the cups with a threaded rod. That replaces *one* of the *four* specialized tools required to fully replace a headset. What is your solution for the other three? I'm betting they don't mimic the Park versions quite so well as your press.
> 
> Anyone who thinks that a hammer and screwdriver, socket extender, etc. are the appropriate tools for removing crown races and headset cups is hack, plain and simple. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, in this case kind to the people who might be duped into taking bunk advice.


To anyone who is considering doing this procedure at home, it's not nearly as difficult as the shop guys are making it out to be. If you want to DIY don't let them scare you, but if you are uncertain then take it to your LBS.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

As a shop guy, I can confirm that it is (usually) a simple process.

But before you go trying to DIY, find someone to advise you who can describe how to do more than 1/4 of the job.


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## Go Kart Motzart (Jan 2, 2004)

chequamagon said:


> OH GOD NO!!!
> 
> Now Im not a big fan of the DIY presses because they wont hold the headset cups parallel, which could result in ovalized headtubes.....
> 
> But using a hammer to press fit something? Press fits require a constant pressure to slide in, using jarring pressure from a hammer will do nothing but destroy your headtube. This is a bad idea from any angle.


Works fine for headsets. Put the cups in the freezer for a few hours first and they practically fall in. The end of a 2x4 and a dead blow hammer will make sure everything is seated.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> As a shop guy, I can confirm that it is (usually) a simple process.
> 
> But before you go trying to DIY, find someone to advise you who can describe how to do more than 1/4 of the job.


Yes, good advice. That info is available on this site via a search. There are many threads on the subject detailing each step of the process.


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## toones (May 6, 2005)

Nat said:


> What the hell is this? They're doing me a favor by my patronizing their shop? They're mad that I'd think about using their services? WTF? Nice business approach.


I used to run a tire shop. People came in all the time wanting me to install their tires, then would get mad because I charged twice as much to mount and balance a carry in as I did a tire they bought from me, mainly because I was losing the profit I was making on the part that I sold them.

This is a can of worms though, because you can say that giving someone a deal on a situation like this increases the likelihood that they'll keep coming back. OK, fine. But how many of these "good deals" do you give out to people before you can't pay your wrenches and they go work somewhere else? You have to pay the bills somehow. I paid $15 a week ago for my LBS to take the old crankset & BB off of my old Trek roadie I'm getting painted because I don't have a BB tool or a crank puller and don't feel like messing with it right now. Took the guy 10 minutes, everyone came over to "look at that old Trek," as the owner put it, and I was on my way happy.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

The search function on this site blows. Since you are a DIY'er, I'd genuinely like to know what you use for a crown race puller and crown race setter. I'm familiar with home made cup removers.


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## gatman (Jun 10, 2004)

I guess I am a hack!! :thumbsup: So be it!! I work on my own bikes and they work better than when I took them to a shop. 

The 2x4 softens the area around the cup so you don't mess it up like hitting it with a metal object. Also, I have tried the threaded diy tool, but after messing with it with no luck, I took it apart and used the hammer. I have a threaded tool, but I have used it for head set adjustments for years. I normally don't have a star nut in my fork. (you don't have to say it. I know, but I am already a hack)

I have tired to use the LBS, but when I started riding, they were not big enough to stock the parts that I wanted and were way over priced. I started ordering from a different shop 2 1/2 hours away and could get the parts quicker and cheaper then the lbs.

The straw that broke the proverbial back was when I had my bike tuned up and told them to adjust my brakes. Well, I picked it up the day before my race and didn't spend a lot of time riding it that night. I made it all the way to the starting line and pulled on my brake as a nervous habit. Well, I hear a clank and looked back to see the brake all sprung apart. (note: this was before V brakes) Well, I mentioned it to the shop that next week that it came apart and was not tight. They told me that they would not have touched that bolt. I laughed at them and said I guess I paid you for not doing what I asked you to do.... 

I have done my own work since then and none of my hack jobs have ever messed up a bike.


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## emwarble (Aug 6, 2006)

I just purchased a Sir 9 last week. I bought my king headset from LBS, they installed it for me at no charge. They also sprayed my frame with frame saver for me because they had no more on the shelf. They could not get me the bottom bracket that I wanted, but told me to find it and they would install it also. I still have never bought a complete bike from them, but I try to use them as much as possible. If they would have had a ferrous I probably would have bought it form them. The Niner's standover is a little better for me though, but not a deal breaker, E


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> The search function on this site blows. Since you are a DIY'er, I'd genuinely like to know what you use for a crown race puller and crown race setter. I'm familiar with home made cup removers.


I'll take pics when I can.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

That'd be a screw driver these days, well if you've kept up with the trend of modern headsets since they now use an easily removable crown race.

As to your other comments, I can clearly see that you're a scared little boy with no common sense and just as little brain. if you want me to put it a little more bluntly... you're an a$$hole who is trying to scare people into paying a shop to do simple work, when it could be done using DIY tools made for fractions of what the shop tools cost - _what's it you said_.....sometimes you have to be blunt & cruel 

All "shop wrenches" started out not knowing anything and learned the same way us DIYers did - _by watching other people and/or experimenting_ - PLUS I wouldn't trust 1/4 of the "shop wrenches" with my bike, not even for a pedal swap. Only thing I would take my bike in to get a shop to do is for facing the BB or headtube, everything else can be done at home.



PeanutButterBreath said:


> The search function on this site blows. Since you are a DIY'er, I'd genuinely like to know what you use for a crown race puller and crown race setter. I'm familiar with home made cup removers.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

*Hack, here.*



PeanutButterBreath said:


> Anyone who thinks that a hammer and screwdriver, socket extender, etc. are the appropriate tools for removing crown races and headset cups is hack, plain and simple. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, in this case kind to the people who might be duped into taking bunk advice.


If your definition of a hack includes someone who gets the job using cheap homemade tools where the end product is indistinguishable from the job done by a professional tool, then I'll be the first to put on the "hack" shirt.

To answer your question about the other tools needed:

Headset Cup remover: Copper pipe with slits cut lengthwise a few inches into one end, forming what is essentially the same thing as the park tool. I made one and it works like a charm.

Crown race installer: It depends on the crown race. In some cases a piece of PVC, in others you can even use a metal pipe to slip over the steer tube and push the race into place. Depends on the shape of the race.

Crown race remover: Scewdriver or old dull chisel. There are a few races that this could damage, such as the S3, but this is also true with "professional" tools. In any event, I priced an extra crown race for my S3 and it was under $10. I am sure if I cared I could solve this problem for under $10, just like everything else.

Cost of all of these tools: About $20 assuming you have a screwdriver. Less if you have the pipe.


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*When I screw up the Attorney General shows up*



Nat said:


> Anyone who is brave enough to install and remove his own bottom bracket should be brave enough to press in his own headset.
> 
> Besides, say you really _do_ mess up your headset or frame. You can always buy a new one! In my line of work, if I screw up someone calls a lawyer. _That_ makes me sweat.


or worse Alberto Gonzales himself :eekster: . Sometimes is also a matter of degree. Back when most headsets were loose ball with steel cups, you could beat on it with a 2x4 and probably do little harm. Try that with 6061 alloy cups and you could end up with more wrinkles than Keith Richards. I'll let you know I have tried using the bolt and washer method but I could never get the cup to stay straight. Maybe I'm just a klutz:bluefrown:

Brad


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

aka brad said:


> or worse Alberto Gonzales himself :eekster: . Sometimes is also a matter of degree. Back when most headsets were loose ball with steel cups, you could beat on it with a 2x4 and probably do little harm. Try that with 6061 alloy cups and you could end up with more wrinkles than Keith Richards. I'll let you know I have tried using the bolt and washer method but I could never get the cup stay straight. Maybe I'm just a klutz:bluefrown:
> 
> Brad


Let's drink to screwing up on our bikes rather than at work (but preferably not right before going to work).


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## HomeGrownSS (Jan 18, 2006)

i couldnt imagine installing a chris king HS without the king adapters and a headset press, and facing/reaming prior to installation.


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## LititzDude (Apr 3, 2004)

*Sorry*



Ratman said:


> Anyway, I made an appointment to have the headset installed this Thrusday by my LBS for $30. And to the guy (LititzDude) who wondered if I bought the headset via mail order the answer is no. I actually purchased it from a co-worker who had it sitting on his desk still wrapped in its original package. You weren't sounding rough. Your point is actually well taken and I try to support my local bike shop whenever I can.
> 
> Thanks guys for all the responses.....
> 
> :thumbsup:


I'm glad you understood what I was saying. My point was the LBS didn't sell you the headset. 
It just struck a nerve with me, because I was at my LBS buying my 6 year old a Specialized Hot Rock 20 6 sp, and in the middle, this lady walks in with a seat and post, and said she had just bought a seat at K-mart, and could he install it on the bike she bought last year. To my amazement my LBS said sure no problem, and installed the new seat, and told her no charge. I was shocked as was everybody when she took it from him, turned around and walked out without even saying thank you. This was Easter weekend, shop full of people, spending money and my new opinion of my LBS is he is a saint.


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## bikerideAZ (Apr 8, 2007)

emwarble said:


> I just purchased a Sir 9 last week...They also sprayed my frame with frame saver for me...


Is this kind of like how a dealership will provide a "rustproofing undercoat" on a new car? lol. 

To the original poster, just buy a press and do it yourself. Read the press directions and the directions that came with the headset. It will pay for itself in the long run and you'll be able to help friends when they need a press. Ask a local rider/friend for help with your new press. Yes, you'll probably only use it once or twice a year. It will take you less time than having to wait for a shop to get to it, drive to and from a bike shop, and loading it in and out of your car/truck/bus/camel. 

I know a bike shop has to make money, but who effing cares? I like to save money as much as they like to make money. If your LBS doesn't make it and has to close down then it was just a bad investment and they ran the business poorly.

Also, if you have no clue what you're doing, then perhaps using the correct tool is a better option as opposed to building something out of washers and pipe. Yes, those homemade presses do work, but learn with the right tool first and save your frame.

Who's to say that the LBS high school monkey making minimum wage knows how to use a HS press? Your bike could be his first time...why not make it your first time instead? If most sales people at LBShops are idiots then why should a 17year old mechanic be any different?


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## Mudflaps (Sep 7, 2005)

HomeGrownSS said:


> i couldnt imagine installing a chris king HS without the king adapters and a headset press, and facing/reaming prior to installation.


Facing & reaming (properly done) can be the difference between a headset lasting a year, and one lasting five years or more, assuming proper maintenance. If you read the installation instructions for King headsets, you'll find that reaming and facing is considered to be part of a proper installation. It is standard procedure for Campagnolo too. I feel this to be true for any high quality headset. The reason is that many frames aren't quite parallel in the headtube faces. Frames are better than they were in the 1970's and 80's but still you can't predict that it will be correct for longevity's sake.

I have found that a parallel installation is highly improbable without some sort of press (the DIY threaded rod sort works fine, 2x4's and hammers seldom work out well), but it is important to be cautious about how much pressure you apply to alloy cups, they can be mangled beyond use as someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

Edit: disclaimer inserted here - I no longer own/ work in a bike shop, just want to bring up the technical reasons for a shop's owning all those tools. Also to bikerideAZ, not everyone working in a shop is as clueless as you seem to imply. Many are dedicated enthusiasts with years of experience. Too bad your experience hasn't been good.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

Nat said:


> Hey, why didn't you slice your own toe?


ha, funny you should ask. ingrown toenail, and i didnt want to "half-arse" it with some tool that wasnt clean or proper for the job....

kinda reminds me of another "hire the guy with the tools and knowledge" threads around here.........

$300 was a bargain as far as Im concerned to know it was done proper and wont get infected. Kinda like $30 to make sure my headset isnt being put in with a hammer and croquet ball.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

chequamagon said:


> ha, funny you should ask. ingrown toenail, and i didnt want to "half-arse" it with some tool that wasnt clean or proper for the job....
> 
> kinda reminds me of another "hire the guy with the tools and knowledge" threads around here.........
> 
> $300 was a bargain as far as Im concerned to know it was done proper and wont get infected. Kinda like $30 to make sure my headset isnt being put in with a hammer and croquet ball.


Although if you had the tools and knowledge you could've done it yourself, hey? Thank god I have the tools and knowledge to work on my own bike (and toes).

$300 was a bargain, actually. You got off cheap.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

HomeGrownSS said:


> i couldnt imagine installing a chris king HS without the king adapters and a headset press, and facing/reaming prior to installation.


Facing and reaming are requisite (and I did that as part of making a living back-in-day and it wasn't rocket science either). A headset press is desirable too, and the home version does the job without costing a bundle.

The adapters are unnecessary.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

HomeGrownSS said:


> i couldnt imagine installing a chris king HS without the king adapters and a headset press, and facing/reaming prior to installation.


Hmm, I couldn't imagine dropping the dough on a CK in the first place. I'm cheap all around.


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## dewthedru (Nov 8, 2004)

man....i'm glad i didn't read this thread before i installed my own king HS on my ellsworth.  

i built up as much of the bike as i could, bb, fork, brakes, etc. but i had them install the der and cables because they're much better at fine-tuning it than i am.

and while i certainly do want to support my lbs, it's a business. i shouldn't feel nervous asking them to perform a service i'm paying for just because i don't always pay the extra amount to "support my lbs."

don't get me wrong. i spent oodles of cash there so i'm not using them to get product advice and them snag it off the web. but if i'm going to save $200 on a component set by getting it online, my primary financial obligation is to make sure that i support myself and my family before i support the lbs.

but i guess if i was worried about supporting my family, i shouldn't be buying fizik saddles.


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## Mudflaps (Sep 7, 2005)

Nat said:


> Facing and reaming are requisite (and I did that as part of making a living back-in-day and it wasn't rocket science either). A headset press is desirable too, and the home version does the job without costing a bundle.
> 
> The adapters are unnecessary.


You're correct that facing and reaming ain't rocket science, but if not carefully done, it can ruin an aluminum frame. Good to have an experienced person do that part at least. I have installed many a King HS without adapters or problems.

Have you ever priced the machining tools to do facing and reaming? - it would put a fairly heathy dent in a $1000 bill.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Mudflaps said:


> You're correct that facing and reaming ain't rocket science, but if not carefully done, it can ruin an aluminum frame. Good to have an experienced person do that part at least. I have installed many a King HS without adapters or problems.
> 
> Have you ever priced the machining tools to do facing and reaming? - it would put a fairly heathy dent in a $1000 bill.


True. You could ruin a frame just as easily cross-threading your bottom bracket though, and I'm guessing most people here are willing to do their own BB swap . It's that the needed tools are cheap enough for most to justify buying.

We had Campy cutting tools. IIRC both the head tube and bb set were Campy. I know they weren't cheap.


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## pacman (Jan 16, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> The search function on this site blows. Since you are a DIY'er, I'd genuinely like to know what you use for a crown race puller and *crown race setter*. I'm familiar with home made cup removers.


Scratch free crown race setter with conforming surface. Very cheap.


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## Mudflaps (Sep 7, 2005)

Nat said:


> True. You could ruin a frame just as easily cross-threading your bottom bracket, and I'm guessing most people here are willing to try a BB swap though. It's just that the needed tools are cheap enough for most to justify buying.
> 
> We had Campy cutting tools. IIRC both the head tube and bb set were Campy. I know they weren't cheap.


Ah yes, and so much fun to come along afterwards and try to correct, only to discover that some yob did a cross thread. Sheesh!

When going to your local LBS to get your work done if hiring it out, look for the older guy that is still enthused and talks with obvious experience; he's the one you want doing your job. Bribe him if necessary.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Mudflaps said:


> Ah yes, and so much fun to come along afterwards and try to correct, only to discover that some yob did a cross thread. Sheesh!
> 
> When going to your local LBS to get your work done if hiring it out, look for the older guy that is still enthused and talks with obvious experience; he's the one you want doing your job. Bribe him if necessary.


Why does the image of lef-t's face come to mind? Just don't make me go camping with him. I find king beds more comfy than trash bags stuffed with leaves.


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## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*Wow*

Opinions are running rampant!
If you think your local LBS is "ripping you off, a bunch of morons, a coupla' high school flunkies" you need a new Shop to do business with.
As a tradesman in another field, I run into this attitude all the time. Someone who thinks the product or service is too costly usually doesn't have the $4 to do it right in the first place.
That being said......That also drives some to do it youself status. I was/am in the same boat at times. It caused me to try some aspects of bike assembly. I enjoy dubbing around in the garage on my bikes, but I know my limits. I also have a good relatioship with the local LBS. I don't price shop them to death. I deal with them with respect and get the same in return.

Until you run your own business (bike or otherwise) it's tough to understand the value of "Time vs. Money"
jC


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## mcoco01 (Sep 29, 2005)

The price of convenience...

I agree. You're paying for a service. If you can do the service yourself, then any amount of money is going to seem ridiculous. If the convenience is worth the price, then that's a reasonable price. The LBS is putting a price on convenience for most of the people out there who don't have the necessary tools (home-made or otherwise) or just don't care to take the time. We shouldn't be upset with a local business charging us to do something we're not willing to do ourselves. For example, I need to insulate my crawlspace. I could do this. I don't want to. So I'm going to pay someone to do it and the price he charges will be worth me not having to go crawl around under the house. I also need to replace all the windows in my house. I can do this and don't mind doing it so I'm not going to pay someone to do it for me.

Just decide if the service and convenience your LBS provides is worth the extra money.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Most services like this are for people that are "too busy" to do it themselves and as such I don't think $30 is a lot if you "don't have the time", I mean finding 5 minutes is very hard for some people  

Let's face it services like this and many others survive because of humans lazy nature, they don't want to mainly invest the patience and time it takes to read a little info, do some research and learn how to do things. Sorry I'm a guy who believes I can do almost anything I put my mind to and have basically done that - from mainataining my Suzuki SJ410 to re-building the engine, changing diff, learning to build and fix computers, photography, basic web design/coding, cleaning video heads, operating VCR's, TV, DVD players etc. It's amazing how many people can't figure out how to program a VCR, TV....... It all just takes time and people are too damn lazy these days so these types of services prosper.

As for paying a doc $300 to "deal with" an in-grown toe nail  LMAO that's a joke. All you need is an Xacto knife, brand new blade, some alcohol and fire and then some anti-biotic power/cream to put on after. I should know, when in college I had to deal with one and that's exacctly what I used - no infection  no out shelling of $300 a college student doesn't have either.


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## FODM (Dec 24, 2006)

Analogy: Go to a restaurant with your own bottle of wine and they'll charge you a "corkage fee" to open it. Standard practice. Don't like it? Buy their wine or go without.

Here's an idea: Become a regular at your LBS. Buy some stuff from them. Have them do some repairs for you. Bring the mechanic a beer on a Friday afternoon or the manager a coffee on Saturday morning. Watch the labor charges go down and reap the other rewards, like getting your wheel trued on a Friday afternoon before a race weekend. It's called "building a relationship." If some Random Joe walked into my shop with a Price Point headset I'd charge him $30 for the install, too. If he had spent a grand with me last year and bought the headset from me, I'd do it gratis. While he waited.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

FODM said:


> Analogy: Go to a restaurant with your own bottle of wine and they'll charge you a "corkage fee" to open it. Standard practice. Don't like it? Buy their wine or go without.
> 
> Here's an idea: Become a regular at your LBS. Buy some stuff from them. Have them do some repairs for you. Bring the mechanic a beer on a Friday afternoon or the manager a coffee on Saturday morning. Watch the labor charges go down and reap the other rewards, like getting your wheel trued on a Friday afternoon before a race weekend. It's called "building a relationship." If some Random Joe walked into my shop with a Price Point headset I'd charge him $30 for the install, too. If he had spent a grand with me last year and bought the headset from me, I'd do it gratis. While he waited.


How much is the corkage fee? Decent analogy though.

I'll gladly pay someone to serve me a meal, but there's also satisfaction in doing my own cooking.


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

*Nope!*



Dirdir said:


> This is ridiculous. The Burger King analogy is simply off. A better analogy is the auto repair shop at the dealership. Under your theory, these repair shops should refuse to repair any car not purchased at the dealership.


YOUR analogy is bad. for your analogy to be correct you should say "these repair shops should refuse to repair any car *WITH PARTS* not purchased at the dealership".

If you had said it that way, you would have a better analogy...by the way...most dealerships WILL refuse to install carried in parts. There are MANY MANY MANY reasons for this. Here is a hint, Profit on the part is NOT the main reason.

Bike shops are discovering many of the same reasons, and they are justified to charge what they want, or refuse to install YOUR parts for you. The person that runs the bike shop should make the decisions, who are we to comment on what a shop should charge to install a part we have never seen on a bike we have never seen!?!


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

*rubber mallet*



Nat said:


> Your LBS takes appointments? Like your dentist or attorney? Good, because they're making the same hourly rate for that 5 minute job (pressing the headset). If they're reaming and facing then $30 is reasonable.
> 
> I still am amazed at how scared people are of pressing in their own headset. It's easier than swapping pedals. Oh no! Don't swap your own pedals! You may cross thread something or slip a wrench! Take it to your LBS! Brrrrrr!


Back in 1990, I worked part time at a shop in Libertyville, IL. The mechanic there showed me how to carefully install a headset using a rubber mallet. To this day, I still do that. I did buy a cup remover though.


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## ekoostick (Oct 7, 2004)

duotone said:


> Be resourceful...


This one just made milk come through my nose! That has got to be one of the best ways to install a headset that I have ever seen!


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

LyNx to peanutbutterbreath said:


> As to your other comments, I can clearly see that you're a scared little boy with no common sense and just as little brain. if you want me to put it a little more bluntly... you're an a$$hole who is trying to scare people into paying a shop to do simple work, when it could be done using DIY tools made for fractions of what the shop tools cost - _what's it you said_.....sometimes you have to be blunt & cruel


BAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol:


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

kapusta said:


> If your definition of a hack includes someone who gets the job using cheap homemade tools where the end product is indistinguishable from the job done by a professional tool, then I'll be the first to put on the "hack" shirt.


More like someone who can't distinguish between "done" and "done right".


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## AzTracer (Feb 15, 2007)

I just paid 20 bucks to get my king put on my new bike. If you think about it good press costs what? about two bills? Hell i only put a new one on about every 5 yrs and thats just changing the same king headset to a new bike. The 20 bucks is still a bargain IMO when you think about it that way


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## mrsalty (Feb 7, 2006)

well this has been quite entertaining.
lots of hurt feelings and posturing.

would I personally pay $30 to install a headset?
no way.

but I also see the value of knowing how to service my own stuff.............even if it costs me money when I screw something up.


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## pacman (Jan 16, 2004)

Some asked to see a CR setter but didn't respond.

I guess I have to *include instructions*. 
1. Put the CR on the steerer tube
2. Place the steerer tube through the hole.
3. Tap it (the 2x4) down with the hammer.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

*+1 for the "hacks"*

many, many folks who work in a shop suffer from a sense of entitlement in relation to the DIY'er.

rather than calling DIY wrenches who make their own tools "hacks", perhaps it would be more accurate to label as "shop snobs" those who are unimaginative, uncreative, unresourceful, and incapable of thinking outside the box.

you can make the tools needed to *PROPERLY* install and/or change a headset for a next to nothing (*without* making one a "hack").

cup remover: cut slits in a length of 1" copper pipe, then flare. due to the malleability of copper, use either a 1' section of 2x2 or a rubber mallet.

careful application of flathead screwdriver and mallet removes a race just fine without damaging race or fork.

headset press has already been pictured. (threaded bolt with washers)

facing tool is similar: drill a hole in the center of a wide coarse flat file and use it with your home made headset press. it works great on the headtube AND the bottom bracket face.

race seating tool: either a 1" or 1.125" i.d. 2" heavy steel washer (depending on steer tube diameter) and length of 1.25" i.d. pipe. drop the race and washer on the steer tube and set with the pipe. if you have a welder and want to be fancy then tack your washer to the pipe.

all of these tools can be made for less than $10.00 and perform the same quality of job as the pro tools.

its nice to have fancy tools in your home shop, but certainly isnt necessary.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> kapusta said:
> 
> 
> > If your definition of a hack includes someone who gets the job using cheap homemade tools where the end product is indistinguishable from the job done by a professional tool, then I'll be the first to put on the "hack" shirt.
> ...


if the end result is *INDISTINGUISHABLE* from the job done by a profession tool, then by default it would be "done right".


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## velocipus (Apr 27, 2005)

Dirdir said:


> This is ridiculous. The Burger King analogy is simply off. A better analogy is the auto repair shop at the dealership. Under your theory, these repair shops should refuse to repair any car not purchased at the dealership.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> No, under his theory it would be like bring your car into a shop and handing the mechanic the parts that you bought somewhere else... Go ahead and try that one. You'd get laughed out of the shop.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

On some headsets (certain FSA models come to mind) a split race is used that can be installed and removed w/o tools. The vast majority of modern headsets still use a press fit race that can not be removed w/o some kind of tool, and can not be removed properly w/o a tool that pulls the race straight up rather than wedging it back and forth. Moreover, most modern forks feature crowns and steerers that are not made of steel, and are thus easily damaged when steel tools are improperly used to remove steel races.

As far as scaring people in to going to a shop. I couldn't care less if nobody ever came into a shop for headset removal or installation again. Nor could I care less if Park never sold another headset tool. You can use tools hand carved out of obsidian for all I care, as long as they conform to the way that the components in question were designed to be manipulated.

You must have been pretty insulted by my "hack" comments to come back with such childish insults.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

monogod said:


> if the end result is *INDISTINGUISHABLE* from the job done by a profession tool, then by default it would be "done right".


That is a distinction I wouldn't trust to someone careless enough to remove a crown race with a screwdriver.


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## LWright (Jan 29, 2006)

*cheap bastard*



Ratman said:


> Should I take my $30, add some $$, and just go buy a headset press from E-Bay or should I stop being a cheap bastard and just pay my shop to do it? $30 seems kinda high especially since I only paid $35 for the Cane Creek S-2 headset I'm trying to get installed.
> 
> What do the masses think?


I do not know what the masses might think, not having read all the replies, but this is what I think. Please accept this as constructive critisisim.

The simple fact that you asked the question about a press shows that you do not have the skills to replace the parts on your own.
$30 sounds fair, the cost of a good mechainic is never as high as the cost of a bad one.
You got reamed already on the cost of the cane creek.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> The vast majority of modern headsets still use a press fit race that can not be removed w/o some kind of tool, and can not be removed properly w/o a tool that pulls the race straight up rather than wedging it back and forth.


BOVINE EXCREMENT!

*"careful application"* of screwdriver/mallet is the key.

in the thousands that i have removed this way NOT A SINGLE ONE has been damaged.



> You can use tools hand carved out of obsidian for all I care, as long as they conform to the way that the components in question were designed to be manipulated.


then why'd you label as "hacks... plain and simple" those who instead of using _*PARK*_ (reverent gasp) tools make their own that "_conform to the way that the components in question were designed to be manipulated_" in order to PROPERLY get the job done?



peanutbutterbreath said:


> Moreover, most modern forks feature crowns and steerers that are not made of steel, and are thus easily damaged when steel tools are improperly used to remove steel races.


agreed. key here is "_improperly used_".

*"careful application"* of screwdriver/mallet is the key. 


peanutbutterbreath said:


> You must have been pretty insulted by my "hack" comments


dont think anyone was insulted by the comment, but rather irked by the entitlement "shop snob" attitude. (as well as your ignorance of how to TRULY do it yourself).


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> That is a distinction I wouldn't trust to someone careless enough to remove a crown race with a screwdriver.


just cuz youre too clumsy and screw it up when you do it doesnt mean that it cant be done properly with "*careful application* of screwdriver/mallet". :lol:


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

blender opinions wanted 

the ice keeps jamming the blades....


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

monogod said:


> just cuz youre too clumsy and screw it up when you do it doesnt mean that it cant be done properly with "*careful application* of screwdriver/mallet". :lol:


My friend, we have been caught by a troll. I was just about to respond again to this guy, then I read a few more of his responses to you and realized he is just giving people sh!t for sh!t's sake. [email protected], I am so easily sucked in. When will I learn?


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## pacman (Jan 16, 2004)

Ratman said:


> Should I take my $30, add some $$, and just go buy a headset press from E-Bay or should I stop being a cheap bastard and just pay my shop to do it? $30 seems kinda high especially since I only paid $35 for the Cane Creek S-2 headset I'm trying to get installed.
> 
> What do the masses think?


If you're replacing another Cane Creek headset the races are the same, are they charging for that labor too? In other words leave the old CR on.


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## LWright (Jan 29, 2006)

*please consider*



PeanutButterBreath said:


> That is a distinction I wouldn't trust to someone careless enough to remove a crown race with a screwdriver.


PBB, first let me say that I am hardly the best mechanic in the world, but after 25 years working as an auto mechanic, including getting the job done fast enough to please the boss, doing my own and other mechanics comebacks, working in fully equipped shops and in dirt driveways, I do know a thing or two.

The "right" tools do not garuntee a good job. sure makes them easier though.
The best tool is still the good old grey matter.
A "screwdriver" in the hands of a qualified person is better than any high dollar tool in the hands of an unqualified person.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

kapusta said:


> My friend, we have been caught by a troll. I was just about to respond again to this guy, then I read a few more of his responses to you and realized he is just giving people sh!t for sh!t's sake. [email protected], I am so easily sucked in. When will I learn?


:lol:

oh yeah... read some of his other posts in other threads. WHOA!!! ut:

the problem is that he doesnt do it JUST to provoke a reaction... he really believes the vacuous statements he makes. he further believes that because he works in a shop (reverent sigh) that this somehow lends credence, authority, and credibility to his inane statements.

personally i continually respond to the drivel and pablum that spews forth from his overused spunkhole simply out of amusement!

ignoring the jerks makes them mad, but pushing their buttons back (and publicly humiliating them on the interweb in the process) irritates them much more. :thumbsup:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

LWright to peanutbutterbreath... said:


> The "right" tools do not garuntee a good job. sure makes them easier though.
> The best tool is still the good old grey matter.
> A "screwdriver" in the hands of a qualified person is better than any high dollar tool in the hands of an unqualified person.


BOO-YA!

werd :thumbsup:


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## MaddSquirrel (Aug 5, 2005)

Well, my thoughts are that no matter were I bought the headset, the LBS should be glad that I am choosing to use their shop over another shop in town. I recieved a set of clipless pedals for Christmas and I went into my shop to buy shoes. I got 20% off $100 dollar pair of shoes. I feel that they are glad that I choose them over another shop and they really do not care where I buy the part, but rather I give them some business. $30 may be a little steep, but I do not know what the average charge where you live is. I am in TN and most shops charge ~10-20.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

monogod said:


> :lol:
> 
> oh yeah... read some of his other posts in other threads. WHOA!!! ut:
> 
> ...


Hey, that's cool, and it makes great reading. Not saying I won't break down and respond myself. Just making sure we all see the forest through the trees.


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## SlowSSer (Dec 19, 2003)

this thread has gotten amazing. 

semi-on-topic question for everyone (yes, even us hacks)

would it make a difference what method you use and how much you spent on the bike?

example:
2x4 and mallet method on a $2500+ merlin/seven/custom whatever frame
2x4 and mallet method on a $250 supergo frame.


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## Ratman (May 13, 2005)

LWright said:


> I do not know what the masses might think, not having read all the replies, but this is what I think. Please accept this as constructive critisisim.
> 
> The simple fact that you asked the question about a press shows that you do not have the skills to replace the parts on your own.
> $30 sounds fair, the cost of a good mechainic is never as high as the cost of a bad one.
> You got reamed already on the cost of the cane creek.


LMAO!! I already said in a previous post that I made an appointment to have the headset installed by my LBS. Show me where I asked a question about a headset press. What I asked is if I should just go out and buy one as opposed to having the LBS do it. 
<O
Finally, before you decide to leave inflammatory remarks under the cover of "constructive critisisim", please make sure you know how to spell the word *criticism.*<O</O
<O</O

Thanks.....

To the mods on this board, please feel free to kill this thread at anytime. I sincerely did not mean to cause such a sh!tstorm of drama & cat-fighting.....


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

SlowSSer said:


> this thread has gotten amazing.
> 
> semi-on-topic question for everyone (yes, even us hacks)
> 
> ...


In that case it would for me because I do not 100% trust MYSELF with the wood and hammer method. However, I would gladly use my home made press on the $2,500 frame.


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## Ratman (May 13, 2005)

*Thanks for the heads up pacman!!*



pacman said:


> If you're replacing another Cane Creek headset the races are the same, are they charging for that labor too? In other words leave the old CR on.


I thought about that but unfortunately I can't seem get that lucky. All I wanted to do was give a little life to an old steel frame by replacing the tired and worn out ol' Aheadset that's on there right now. Who knew it was gonna turn into this??? :madman:


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## bikes4max (Sep 18, 2006)

To cheap to pay .Then do it your self, good luck with that ? Bike shops don't charge what they did ten years ago. At one time shops were ran by people who loved the sport . Now $$$ is the the main concern .Can't knock'em for that, it's life


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## unit (Nov 24, 2005)

*yeah, its legendary!*



Ratman said:


> I thought about that but unfortunately I can't seem get that lucky. All I wanted to do was give a little life to an old steel frame by replacing the tired and worn out ol' Aheadset that's on there right now. Who knew it was gonna turn into this??? :madman:


I can not recall any thread in recent history that grew this big, this fast. You are a legend man!

I never would have guessed it.

Now, if everyone who has participated would just send 25 cents to you (per response), you could get your headset installed and have money to spare! :thumbsup:


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## Ratman (May 13, 2005)

unit said:


> I can not recall any thread in recent history that grew this big, this fast. You are a legend man!
> 
> I never would have guessed it.
> 
> Now, if everyone who has participated would just send 25 cents to you (per response), you could get your headset installed and have money to spare! :thumbsup:


LOL!! This is not exactly how I had envisioned myself earning my MTBR stripes....

Again, I really didn't mean to cause any harm. The majority of my posts are all "information seeking" and not something that would ever spark this level of debate.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

kapusta said:


> In that case it would for me because I do not 100% trust MYSELF with the wood and hammer method. However, I would gladly use my home made press on the $2,500 frame.


WERD :thumbsup:

... as well as my homemade facing tool and cup extractor.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I think the analogy is pretty right on. In the auto dealership case, it would like asking them to install parts that you bought somewhere else.


Uh - I've bought parts online (I had something very specific I wanted), brought them to my car dealership and had them install it. They didn't complain about it at all - just charged me their normal labor rate.

Bike shops should have a little common sense and realize that repair service should be a major part of their business (if they can't do that what's the benefit over buying online?). It shouldn't matter where I bought the bike or the parts if I'm willing to pay you labor to do the work.

If you don't like their labor prices, then yeah - I guess you should learn to do it yourself. And if they DO offer free installation with a purchase (not typically the case in my experience), then take that into consideration if it's something you can't do on your own.


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## gatman (Jun 10, 2004)

SlowSSer said:


> this thread has gotten amazing.
> 
> semi-on-topic question for everyone (yes, even us hacks)
> 
> ...


I don't know. I don't think I would ever buy a $2500 frame. If I did, I sure would not care about paying $30 to have a head set installed.

If that frame was mine and at my house to be built, yes I would use the 2x4 and hammer. It has never failed me.:thumbsup:


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Ratman said:


> LOL!! This is not exactly how I had envisioned myself earning my MTBR stripes....
> 
> Again, I really didn't mean to cause any harm. The majority of my posts are all "information seeking" and not something that would ever spark this level of debate.


Don't apologize, and don't feel bad about it. Every single person who responded here:

Had the time to do so
Did so of his own free will
Enjoyed "getting into it"


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Ratman said:


> LOL!! This is not exactly how I had envisioned myself earning my MTBR stripes....
> 
> Again, I really didn't mean to cause any harm. The majority of my posts are all "information seeking" and not something that would ever spark this level of debate.


A few years ago I asked for recomendations for a headset under $50. It turned into a huge pissing war (around Chris King, of course) and at one point someone was threatening to go online and start spreading complaints about another guy's web business.

A few weeks ago another thread devolved into someone making threats to report someone's shop to the IRS.

There are a few topics which will often lead to real pissing war (CK headsets, baggies vs. lycra, Ellseworth's warrenties, anything thing to do with 29ers, etc) You managed two in one thread: the need for a headset press, and anything to do with an LBS.


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## Ratman (May 13, 2005)

kapusta said:


> A few years ago I asked for recomendations for a headset under $50. It turned into a huge pissing war (around Chris King, of course) and at one point someone was threatening to go online and start spreading complaints about another guy's web business.
> 
> A few weeks ago another thread devolved into someone making threats to report someone's shop to the IRS.
> 
> There are a few topics which will often lead to real pissing war (CK headsets, baggies vs. lycra, Ellseworth's warrenties, anything thing to do with 29ers, etc) You managed two in one thread: the need for a headset press, and anything to do with an LBS.


Yes indeed. I see that now. 

This site was a great source of information back in 1997 when I bought my 1st mountain bike. Now 10 years later I've gone through 4 bikes and even a 3 year break from riding. With everything that has changed in the world of mountain biking during that span of time it was nice to see that MTBR.COM has pretty much remained a constant. It is still a great resource. Unfortunately my riding skills have remained constant as well. They still suck.

In conclusion, I probably should know better than to post the question worded the way I did.<O</O


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Ratman said:


> In conclusion, I probably should know better than to post the question worded the way I did.<O</O


aw hell to the no! and miss all this fun???? :lol:


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## LWright (Jan 29, 2006)

Yessirrebob, this debait rages all the tyme.
know worrys.
long as eye gets meself unerstoood I can admit too knot spellin fer chit!!


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## Ratman (May 13, 2005)

LWright said:


> Yessirrebob, this debait rages all the tyme.
> know worrys.
> long as eye gets meself unerstoood I can admit too knot spellin fer chit!!


You win!!! Let's call a truce. Agree'd???


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

monogod said:


> in the thousands that i have removed this way NOT A SINGLE ONE has been damaged.
> 
> .


 i say bullsh!t. your idea of damage must just mean its not mangled to peices. its obvious that you have not worked a high end shop.

Using a screwdriver will leave deep marks in the race, which a customer who just spent $150 on a headset for their $6000 Colnago might not appreciate.

Just because it still works, doesnt mean it isnt "wrecked".

The term "hack" applies directly to your work you have stated, someone who can make a repair, but "hacks" the living sh!t out of it.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

LWright said:


> The "right" tools do not garuntee a good job. sure makes them easier though.
> The best tool is still the good old grey matter.
> A "screwdriver" in the hands of a qualified person is better than any high dollar tool in the hands of an unqualified person.


agreed.

but a set of washers and a long bolt in the hands of someone who has never used one before and has had nop training other than reading this drivel on the internet is a recipe for disaster.

a screwdriver in the hands of an idiot will just make all the paint go away.

an expensive tool in the hands of an idiot will make some press-fit bearing usually fit sideways and never work again.

So essentially, back to the origin of this thread, should we really be convincing a novice to go and get a washers and bolt? No, he doesnt have the "gray matter" (hence, training, I am not saying he is stupid), and he is using an improper tool. Should he buy the expensive tool? Probably not, he can screw that up just as well.

What should he do? Pay the shop $30 so all these internet know-it-alls can go home and ovalize their own damn headtube.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

chequamagon said:


> i say bullsh!t. your idea of damage must just mean its not mangled to peices. its obvious that you have not worked a high end shop.
> 
> Using a screwdriver will leave deep marks in the race, which a customer who just spent $150 on a headset for their $6000 Colnago might not appreciate.
> 
> ...


no, my idea of no damage means no mark on the race, fork, or cup.

whats actually obvious by your post is you have either poor reading or comprehension/retention skills or a combination of the two.

once again for you and the all other tards in the peanut gallery... i qualified the statement with "*careful* application of screwdriver/mallet" as well as "*proper*" installation/removal. (+1 for your poor reading comprehension)

you dont pound away... you lightly tap and turn. i also have a nylon composite screwdriver (used for preventing scratches on anodized fasteners) that works very well for this.

additionally, we werent talking working in a shop, we were talking about appropriate methods for the DIY'er who cant afford or wants an alternative to pro tools. (+2 for the poor reading comprehension)

also, my vapid critic, if one just spent $150 on a headset you wouldnt be using the screwdriver to install it anyway. (+3 for the poor reading comprehension)

wow... three strikes and yer out! your reading comprehension really does suck! perhaps you should stick to "the pokey puppy" and "abc's for me" rather than trying to read the grown up stuff just yet.

oh, and before you post drivel like this, perhaps you should read all the posts to understand the context. or better yet, just resist your urge to post while the grownups are talking.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

chequamagon said:


> Using a screwdriver will leave deep marks in the race.....


I can show you one that has been removed twice this way withut any deep marks. There is a VERY slight scratch, but you would never notice it if I did not point it out to you. It is a nonissue as far as I am concerned. On my bike it would be like throwing a pinch of sand on a dirt floor. If I put it next to two other used races you would not be able to pick it out.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

chequamagon said:


> rants and raves, ending with... "Pay the shop $30 so all these internet know-it-alls can go home and ovalize their own damn headtube."


wow! who pissed in your orange juice this morning.

you off your meds or what???


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

chequamagon said:


> agreed.
> 
> but a set of washers and a long bolt in the hands of someone who has never used one before and has had nop training other than reading this drivel on the internet is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> ...


Can we trust him to buy his own tp and wipe his own @ss? Maybe he should just go have a profesional do it so us internet know it alls can go home and get our fingers caught in our poopers.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

monogod said:


> whats actually obvious by your post is you have either poor reading or comprehension/retention skills or a combination of the two.
> 
> once again for you and the all other tards in the peanut gallery.


resorting to personal attacks? Lame and uncalled for, this conversation is over.

Tim (B.A. Psychology, M.S. Education, former newspaper editor, 11+ years pro bike wrench)
Yep, I have no idea about bikes or reading.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

kapusta said:


> I can show you one that has been removed twice this way withut any deep marks. There is a VERY slight scratch, but you would never notice it if I did not point it out to you. It is a nonissue as far as I am concerned. On my bike it would be like throwing a pinch of sand on a dirt floor. If I put it next to two other used races you would not be able to pick it out.


any mark is a mark that shouldnt be there, and would not if the job was done by a trained wrench with proper tools.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

chequamagon said:


> any mark is a mark that shouldnt be there, and would not if the job was done by a trained wrench with proper tools.


Know what? If you are willing to spend $30 every time you need to do something with your headset to avoid the possibility of a very slight scratch a small amout of the time (after all, often times removed races are not being used again, anyway), go ahead. It's your money. I do something with headsets about twice a year. Over the past 8 years that I've been riding that adds up to about $480. I figure there are about 4 races I have reused in that time (headsets tend to follow the fork in my case). Each might have 2 slight (and I mean slight) scratches in them. Thats's $120 per race to avoid a couple of small scratches on something attached to a bike with about 500 bigger scratches.

Hey, it's your money, waist it any way you want. I've got better things to do with mine than fussing over a barely noticable scratch on a mountain bike.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

chequamagon said:


> any mark is a mark that shouldnt be there, and would not if the job was done by a trained wrench with proper tools.


DANG STRAIGHT! YOU TELL 'EM TIM... GIVE 'EM HELL!!!

kapusta you should be downright ashamed of yourself. putting a virtually imperceptible mark on the under side of a crown race! its a travesty! YOU HACK! :lol:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

kapusta said:


> Can we trust him to buy his own tp and wipe his own @ss? Maybe he should just go have a profesional do it so us internet know it alls can go home and get our fingers caught in our poopers.


oh great kapusta... as if i didnt have ENOUGH to be concerned about.

now i can add to the worry list getting my finger caught in my pooper cuz i dont have a degree in anal defecalization technology. when it comes to swabbing my pooper im just a hack!

golly... if it does get hung up in there i just hope i dont get any dookie on me while extricating it since i dont have the right tools. :bluefrown:

is there a support group for this????


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## PaddyH (Aug 23, 2004)

steevo said:


> I'd like to know where these shops are that install parts for free if you just buy the part from them. That has NEVER been my experience.
> 
> $30 is not bad especially if they do the facing and reaming.
> 
> I had a shop try to charge me $90 for installing a headset with facing and reaming. They told me part of the charge goes towards the expense of maintaining the cutting tools. They also applied a 20% upcharge because I didn't buy the parts from them. I told them that was BS and asked what if the part was given as a gift, why should I be punished for that? I got them down to $60 and I'll never go back there again.


maybe you should've taken it to the shop it was purchased at...either way, 60 bucks for what you wanted was *more *than fair, last time i checked, bike shops didn't have universal labour rates, we charge less(or no) labour if you buy from us, and charge accordingly if you didn't...
someone mentioned the plumber anology, same idea...


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## EastCoast (Sep 25, 2005)

*Well, now I am confused...*



monogod said:


> ....additionally, we werent talking working in a shop, we were talking about appropriate methods for the DIY'er who cant afford or wants an alternative to pro tools. (+2 for the poor reading comprehension)
> 
> also, my vapid critic, if one just spent $150 on a headset you wouldnt be using the screwdriver to install it anyway. (+3 for the poor reading comprehension)


You also said that you can properly install a headset with DIY tools, and that these tools 'perform the same quality of job as the pro tools.' Why then are you so quick to assert that these tools aren't for something expensive (6k Colnago or $150 headset)? I am confused by this contradiction, perhaps you could elaborate.

As it stands, I am sure plenty of DIYers (I am a budding one myself) can do a great job installing their headsets without any difficulty or problems. That said, if I saw my mech taking a screwdriver and mallet to my crown race (even if he was being very careful) I would at the least be surprised.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

*the peanut gallery strikes again... +4 for poor reading comprehension*



EastCoast said:


> You also said that you can properly install a headset with DIY tools, and that these tools 'perform the same quality of job as the pro tools.' Why then are you so quick to assert that these tools aren't for something expensive (6k Colnago or $150 headset)? I am confused by this contradiction, perhaps you could elaborate.
> 
> As it stands, I am sure plenty of DIYers (I am a budding one myself) can do a great job installing their headsets without any difficulty or problems. That said, if I saw my mech taking a screwdriver and mallet to my crown race (even if he was being very careful) I would at the least be surprised.


sheesh, the short bus kids are out in force today!

your confusion stems not from my words, but from your apparent inability to process them together to form a higher thought.

please re-read the post that has befuddled you. slowly. carefully. perhaps even have someone read it and explain it to you. because then you will see that nowhere did i say, or imply, that the homemade tools are not for something expensive.

i was addressing the fact that he was talking about professionals who are working in a shop using homemade tools for a customers 6k colnago, when in fact the post was about DIY'ers accomplishing the tasks at home without pro tools and without taking it to the lbs and paying for it to be done.

to reiterate... the point of the posts which have so thoroughly confounded you was not that pros should abandon their shop tools and use a screwdriver/mallet, but rather if "*careful application of mallet/screwdriver*" is used one can do the job at home and achieve the same results as specialized tools without shelling out big bucks for specialized tools or taking it in to pay to have it done.

the second comment that confounded you (regarding installing the $150 headset) i believe to be self explanatory. none the less i will humor you and expound...

the hypothetical situation was someone bringing into a shop a 6k colnago to have a $150 headset installed and them not wanting a gouge on their $150 headset.

aside from the fact that the post to which the above scenario was proposed is for DIY'ers interested in alternatives to taking it to a shop or buying specialized tools it should be noted that regardless of the cost of the headset, the mallet/screwdriver is used to REMOVE a race, not INSTALL one*. hence my response.

in the future, please read ALL the posts in a thread and furthermore have a firm grasp on the thread topic as well as what the poster is conveying before venturing into the conversation.

makes life easier on everyone that way. :thumbsup:

* it should be noted that remove and install are not synonymous nor are they interchangeable.


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## EastCoast (Sep 25, 2005)

*monogod*, you are incredibly rude. I'm not sure what you gain from it.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Damn it man, I wish this thread had come up months ago when I first read Speedhub.Nate's tutorial on using the washers and threaded rod and installed that headset for a friend AND then pressing out the bearings in my Trance with similar DIY washers and bolt and then pressing in new bearings , then removing and installing a headset to my Trance - Damn, damn, damn, I'm an idiot :madman: :madman:  Hey at least I got a torque wrench for X-mas :thumbsup:

Oh well guess I'll just go ride my hacked up Trance tomorrow and wallow in the sweet working MAX bearings and headset that have been working fine for over 6 months now :skep: Did I mention I had never done any of that stuff before I tried it? :skep:



chequamagon said:


> agreed.........................So essentially, back to the origin of this thread, *should we really be convincing a novice to go and get a washers and bolt? No, he doesnt have the "gray matter" (hence, training, I am not saying he is stupid), and he is using an improper tool. Should he buy the expensive tool? Probably not, he can screw that up just as well.*
> 
> What should he do? Pay the shop $30 so all these internet know-it-alls can go home and ovalize their own damn headtube.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

EastCoast said:


> *monogod*, you are incredibly rude. I'm not sure what you gain from it.


shucks... that aint rude. thats just terse.

so let me get this straight... you see how i respond to other asinine, irrelevant, inane questions and then get your feelers bent when i respond to yours in the same manner**???

what'd you expect, roses and daffodils? :lol:

** AA defines insanity as "doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results each time".


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## dannybob (Feb 21, 2004)

monogod said:


> shucks... that aint rude. thats just terse.
> 
> so let me get this straight... you see how i respond to other asinine, irrelevant, inane questions and then get your feelers bent when i respond to yours in the same manner**???
> 
> ...


you are anything but terse. a bit long-winded if you ask me. and, as others have stated, rude.

nice avatar though.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Most shops use 40-50 bucks an hour to figure how much to charge for various things. So here’s your headset replacement: Removing a fork, the crown race, the cups, and then possibly facing the head tube before installing a new fork race, pressing in new cups, reinstalling the fork/stem(without messing up shifting/braking adjustments) of course while cleaning and properly re-greasing everything. With the proper tools this takes a good mechanic 30-40 min, even with the right tools some of these steps just take time. Find out what it costs to buy those tools, pay that mechanic, and all of the other overhead involved and I guarantee that shop will loose money on the whole thing. They make money selling water bottles and tubes, not labor. So when it comes down to it, is it worth 20 bucks and a weekend to peruse Home Depot, make you own tools (haven’t seen the DIY for a crown race remover not involving a screwdriver and a hammer) and then figure out how to beat out and then beat press fit components back in. I’d say it’s worth the 30 bones, and for it to be someone else’s problem. Wow, sorry for the late to the party rant.


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## xc-ss'er (Jul 11, 2006)

half the fun for me is installing the parts, i like to tinker

i say do it yourself
coming from a dad whos ran several shops (all which weren't as described further above me WITH free install on some things) Ive learned to do things and I enjoy it


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## long hazy daze (Oct 19, 2005)

chequamagon said:


> Just because it still works, doesnt mean it isnt "wrecked".


Yeah, actually it does.


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## long hazy daze (Oct 19, 2005)

I got my Monocog frame online from Webcyclery along with a few other things including a CC S3 HS. They faced the HT and installed the cups for nothing. The top cup was a little bent from shipping (presumably). I didn't even bother the Cyclery with it as to me it was no biggie, I just used a rounded blunt object (the top of a ratchet), a hammer, patience, and a little finesse to get it back into round. 

When I decided to remove the cable stops and braze on some cable guides (what would a "high end" shop have charged for that?, Oh, right, most shops can't do that....) I used a long flat head screwdriver, a hammer, some patience and finesse to remove it so I could strip and paint the frame (LBS shop cost? see above). When I reinstalled the "soft and fragile" HS cups, I used a piece of wood and a hammer, a little patience and finesse. No issues at all, whatsoever, with the HS or HT to date and it's been taking a pounding on the trails by way of a rigid fork. 

You wanna call me a hack? Go ahead, if it'll make you feel better. The sh!thead that pays $6000 for a road bike to show off to his buddies on weekend club rides and doesn't know his pecker from a pickle is the real hack.


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## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

*Movin'*

on after this...
My Grandfather had asign in his plumbing shop explaining labor charges...
$8.00/hr 1-man
$10/hr if you watch 1-man
$16/hr if you helped 1-man
$32/hr if 1-man fixes what you screwed up!


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