# Stack Height



## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm trying to wrap my head around stack height for taller guys. I'm 6'4", 34" inseam on an XL Ibis Ripmo v1. I just helped a friend put together his size Medium frame and it drives me nuts that his bars are like an inch above the saddle by default. Why don't larger frames do the same?

I'm currently running 46mm riser bars with a 50mm 10* stem and my bike has a 640mm stack, but my bars are still about an inch below saddle level. I have difficulty sprinting in the standing position and on longer rides I'd prefer a more upright position for neutral pedaling. On the other hand, my front-end is starting to wander on climbs...

My spacers are all under the stem. It seems like about the only thing I can do is go to a longer stem with more angle, but then I'm affecting reach and handling too. Is there anything left? 

I guess my larger question -- why does this happen on XL bikes? Even looking at the XXL Santa Cruz bikes, it appears they only have ~6mm more stack height, which is nothing. I don't know how you longer inseam people even ride bikes!


----------



## codahale (Oct 6, 2018)

This is why I went with the XXL Megatower, which has a 666mm stack. It’s got way more travel than I need and I’ve still got 50mm riser bars and 40mm of spacers, but the bars are about the same height as the saddle and holy crap does it make a huge difference in handling.

I think a lot of XL frames these days are designed for people who are 6’0” and want a long bike. Either that or frame designers have access to a ready supply of 100mm riser bars they forgot to tell us about, I dunno.


----------



## pctloper (Jan 3, 2016)

Yep---I am just 6 foot but have a 34.4 inseam so my bars on a large is pretty low---same issue. I have tried to go XL but then the bike is too long usually. So I am running a 50MM rise with 3 spacers to get bar at seat height. For some reason, the new geo usually has a lower stack than the older bikes---maybe they are building for 32 inch inseams at 6 foot but for the 6.4 guys I agree makes no obvious sense


----------



## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

codahale said:


> This is why I went with the XXL Megatower, which has a 666mm stack. It's got way more travel than I need and I've still got 50mm riser bars and 40mm of spacers, but the bars are about the same height as the saddle and holy crap does it make a huge difference in handling.
> 
> I think a lot of XL frames these days are designed for people who are 6'0" and want a long bike. Either that or frame designers have access to a ready supply of 100mm riser bars they forgot to tell us about, I dunno.


That's pretty awesome, didn't realize they had stack heights that high. Now I'm just pissed that the manufacturers can make a stack height like that without any issue, but they only consider it necessary on the XXL bikes!


----------



## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Canyon bikes have quite a bit of stack..

I'm 6ft w/ 32 inseam...

My issue is my wingspan is 6'5"

Bikes feel shorter than they are.

I like a 605-615 stack.

One thing you could do to increase stack is over fork your whip.

An extra 10mm of travel up front and the front end will feel a lot higher... at least that's what I noticed on my 29er FS rig when I over-forked it.

I had to change bars out for almost 0° rise bars and drop a couple of spacers, as it felt too high. 

Sent from my HD1900 using Tapatalk


----------



## codahale (Oct 6, 2018)

ungod said:


> That's pretty awesome, didn't realize they had stack heights that high. Now I'm just pissed that the manufacturers can make a stack height like that without any issue, but they only consider it necessary on the XXL bikes!


I know they have 6'4" as being on the edge of XL and XXL but I'm 6'4" and I can't imagine riding an XL.


----------



## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

codahale said:


> I know they have 6'4" as being on the edge of XL and XXL but I'm 6'4" and I can't imagine riding an XL.


makes me irritated when the reviews state... the short seat tube makes it possible for riders to ride one or even two sizes larger to pick the frame size they prefer!

im lucky... my stack is 686 stock. And i still run riser bars and an uncut stem!


----------



## codahale (Oct 6, 2018)

targnik said:


> One thing you could do to increase stack is over fork your whip.
> 
> An extra 10mm of travel up front and the front end will feel a lot higher... at least that's what I noticed on my 29er FS rig when I over-forked it.


It'll add ~9mm of stack, depending on your head angle. If you got a new fork and didn't cut the steerer short, you could get 40mm of spacers (+36mm of rise, -16mm of reach), a 50mm/12º stem (+10mm of rise, +49mm of reach), and 50mm riser bars (~45mm of rise, depending on your roll angle, +/-5mm of reach), for a total of ~90mm of rise, all without affecting the geometry of the bike.


----------



## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Fuse6F said:


> makes me irritated when the reviews state... the short seat tube makes it possible for riders to ride one or even two sizes larger to pick the frame size they prefer!
> 
> im lucky... my stack is 686 stock. And i still run riser bars and an uncut stem!


Wow, never even heard of a stack that high. What bike?


----------



## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

ungod said:


> Wow, never even heard of a stack that high. What bike?


18 stumpjumper xxl. Which isnt made anymore.

damn.


----------



## telejefe (Mar 28, 2007)

Yup. I am 6’5”. Ripmo AF xl. Run a spike vibrocore 50mm riser, 35mm spacers, 60mm o degree stem. About an inch under seat. It’s pretty good. 

I also had to run a fall line setback 200mm post to be comfy. A bit of a shame as I liked the steep seat, but just too cramped. Will get a longer taller frame when a good choice comes out, but at this point, I just have not seen one worth changing for....


----------



## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

I mean let’s be honest here, companies (outdoor in particular) rarely cater to larger folks. Really anything over 6’2” ish and youre usually down to a few if not a pair of companies offering something in your size. 

Hell samples are made for 5’7” 150 lbs euro cut boys. Definitely not what the average American man fits. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

It's very important for taller guys to pay attention to stack height. Reach and stack are what really determine how big the frame is. Moving your contact points should really be minor adjustments. You can't just keep moving the grips and saddle up and away from the frame without having some starting to get downsides at some point. Riser bars move your hands up and further away from the steering axis (like a longer stem). On a bike with a 66° HTA, going from a 20mm rise bar to a 35mm rise bar is equivalent to lengthening the stem 6mm. That's not a big deal necessarily but if you have to get say a 10mm longer stem and go to a 50mm rise bar to make the bike fit, now it's like you're running a 20mm+ longer stem and that's going to mess with the handling.


----------



## shakabra (Jun 7, 2009)

Don’t write off a slightly longer stem. Nobody wants to go outside the 40-50mm range but an extra 10-20mm with a 6 degree rise will greatly compensate for low stack height and not affect handling too much.

I’m 6’5” with a 36 inch inseam on an XL Ripley v4. 30mm spacers, 70mm 6 degree rise stem (Syntace Megaforce), 45mm riser bars, air sleeve upgrade to make the fork 140mm instead of the stock 130mm. Also pushed the seat back to add another 10-15mm of cockpit reach (not a fan of the straight up over the bottom bracket seated riding position, but I get it that it makes climbing steep stuff much easier). Way more comfortable riding position than it was originally set up by the shop.


----------



## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

shakabra said:


> Don't write off a slightly longer stem. Nobody wants to go outside the 40-50mm range but an extra 10-20mm with a 6 degree rise will greatly compensate for low stack height and not affect handling too much.


Why limit yourself to a 6 degree rise? Handling depends not on stem length per se, but stem length x cos(rise angle), i.e. the distance of the handlebar perpendicular to the steerer axis. This means that a longer high rise stem can have similar handling to a shorter low rise stem. For example a 70mm stem with a 35 degree rise angle (like the UNO stems available on Ebay) will handle like a 57mm zero rise stem - just with a significantly increased stack height.

The effect of stem rise on bar position is a little bit more complicated since head angle enters into it. Since the steerer tube is angled back at the HTA so is the stem. So the rise due to the stem is actually: stem length * sin([stem rise angle] + [90-Head tube angle]). So the extra stack height from the 70mm, 35 degree stem mentioned above is actually almost 60mm for a typical 66-68 degree HTA. That's a LOT of extra stack that's available by using these riser stems.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

shakabra said:


> Don't write off a slightly longer stem. Nobody wants to go outside the 40-50mm range but an extra 10-20mm with a 6 degree rise will greatly compensate for low stack height and not affect handling too much.
> 
> I'm 6'5" with a 36 inch inseam on an XL Ripley v4. 30mm spacers, 70mm 6 degree rise stem (Syntace Megaforce), 45mm riser bars, air sleeve upgrade to make the fork 140mm instead of the stock 130mm. Also pushed the seat back to add another 10-15mm of cockpit reach (not a fan of the straight up over the bottom bracket seated riding position, but I get it that it makes climbing steep stuff much easier). Way more comfortable riding position than it was originally set up by the shop.


I'm the same height and the inseam and have a XXL Tallboy with a 40mm stem, 15mm of stem spacers, and a 35mm rise bar. I also have my saddle slid pretty far forward. I'm not buying a bike I have to run a 70mm stem on and slam my seat back.


----------



## shakabra (Jun 7, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> I'm the same height and the inseam and have a XXL Tallboy with a 40mm stem, 15mm of stem spacers, and a 35mm rise bar. I also have my saddle slid pretty far forward. I'm not buying a bike I have to run a 70mm stem on and slam my seat back.


I've ridden the XXL Tallboy, even though the stack and top tube length are a better fit I found it very sluggish uphill and the wheelbase too long for tight turns and switchbacks, whereas the Ripley flies going up and is incredibly nimble. I guess that's a compromise tall folks have to live with. Different strokes.


----------



## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

shakabra said:


> I've ridden the XXL Tallboy, even though the stack and top tube length are a better fit I found it very sluggish uphill and the wheelbase too long for tight turns and switchbacks...


Which is exactly why I don't like to size up for increased stack height, but do so with cockpit adjustments instead. I hated that barge-like feel around tight switchbacks I had with long wheelbase XL bikes and was much happier once I sized down to a large.


----------



## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I "think" the designers really have no idea what they are doing when designed bikes for guys over 5'10". I always laugh at the stack height only increasing my 10-20mm from a S to XL framed bike. I hope to have a custom frame made soon, and the stack is 672mm (using 50mm stem and 12mm (ish) riser bars, with a Manitou fork w/ 552 AC) and HT length of 163mm. And I am only 6'2".

The other reason I am having a custom frame is long femurs relative to the overall length of my legs. I run 5.25" saddle setback which puts me at a 69* ST angle if I didn't want to run a setback post with the saddle slid back a bit from cetner.


----------



## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

jonshonda said:


> I "think" the designers really have no idea what they are doing when designed bikes for guys over 5'10". I always laugh at the stack height only increasing my 10-20mm from a S to XL framed bike. I hope to have a custom frame made soon, and the stack is 672mm (using 50mm stem and 12mm (ish) riser bars, with a Manitou fork w/ 552 AC) and HT length of 163mm. And I am only 6'2".
> 
> The other reason I am having a custom frame is long femurs relative to the overall length of my legs. I run 5.25" saddle setback which puts me at a 69* ST angle if I didn't want to run a setback post with the saddle slid back a bit from cetner.


keep me up to date on your build.

id love 700 stack 700 ettl 530reach 480cs 66.5hta


----------



## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

What's crazy to me is that they're already making the extra mold for XL frames, and the fork manufacturers are already making steerer tubes that are long enough for whatever stack a manufacturer comes up with. I hate being the guy with the huge riser bars and tons of stem spacers. Why can't they just build a ton of stack into the frame and then let users decide if they want a flat bar or a slight rise from there?

Good info on the stems though. I don't want a cheap one though.... Who makes a nice 35* 70mm stem?


----------



## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Caution on the riser stem...

The more angle to the riser the more rise and fall in the bars as you steer. 

Which is better a stem that points more vertical or more horizontal.


----------



## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> Caution on the riser stem...
> 
> The more angle to the riser the more rise and fall in the bars as you steer.


Really? Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but I think only head tube angle and distance from the steerer axis matters. Imagine tilting your bike forward so that the steerer tube is vertical. Now turn the bars. They move through a horizontal path regardless of the stem angle. If we tilt the bike back to normal doesn't that mean the rise/fall of the bars is equally independent of stem angle?


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

shakabra said:


> I've ridden the XXL Tallboy, even though the stack and top tube length are a better fit I found it very sluggish uphill and the wheelbase too long for tight turns and switchbacks, whereas the Ripley flies going up and is incredibly nimble. I guess that's a compromise tall folks have to live with. Different strokes.


There's only 3mm difference in wheelbase between the XL Riply and XL Tallboy.


----------



## brawlo (Mar 13, 2012)

ungod said:


> What's crazy to me is that they're already making the extra mold for XL frames, and the fork manufacturers are already making steerer tubes that are long enough for whatever stack a manufacturer comes up with. I hate being the guy with the huge riser bars and tons of stem spacers. Why can't they just build a ton of stack into the frame and then let users decide if they want a flat bar or a slight rise from there?
> 
> Good info on the stems though. I don't want a cheap one though.... Who makes a nice 35* 70mm stem?


I literally spent a bit of time today looking. Pro and BBB make such beasts. I've been looking to try changing my Taival position a bit but both the stem and bar options are MIA for me in Oz


----------



## telejefe (Mar 28, 2007)

Hope makes a 20 degree 50 and 70mm stem. That would be my choice.


----------



## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I can't believe I forgot about Ventana bikes. My only bike is my fat bike right now #pleasecryforme and I have just dialed in the geometry that I need to get my handlebars level with my saddle (my saddle height is 32.5" from center of bb to top of saddle, and I run 5.75" of saddle setback for my long femurs) and have the numbers all sorted out.

Now that my handlebars are level out of the saddle climbing, and downhill tech is much more controlled and enjoyable. With that said, I have not found an off the shelf bike that even has the stack I need, much less the reach or ST angle. UNTIL YESTERDAY!! The 3XL Ventana ElGordo has almost the exact numbers I want, and even though 3XL sounds crazy, it should fit me like a glove.

https://www.ventanausa.com/images/bike-list/2018-geometry-chart-090517.pdf


----------



## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

wayold said:


> Why limit yourself to a 6 degree rise? Handling depends not on stem length per se, but stem length x cos(rise angle), i.e. the distance of the handlebar perpendicular to the steerer axis. This means that a longer high rise stem can have similar handling to a shorter low rise stem. For example a 70mm stem with a 35 degree rise angle (like the UNO stems available on Ebay) will handle like a 57mm zero rise stem - just with a significantly increased stack height.
> 
> The effect of stem rise on bar position is a little bit more complicated since head angle enters into it. Since the steerer tube is angled back at the HTA so is the stem. So the rise due to the stem is actually: stem length * sin([stem rise angle] + [90-Head tube angle]). So the extra stack height from the 70mm, 35 degree stem mentioned above is actually almost 60mm for a typical 66-68 degree HTA. That's a LOT of extra stack that's available by using these riser stems.


Thanks for the equations, I finally got around to doing the math and realized that the Hope 20* 50mm stem adds about 35mm of stack while behaving like a 46mm stem. Alternately the 70mm adds 48mm stack while behaving like a 65mm stem. I chose the 50mm, although I would have liked the extra stack. Wish they still made their 25* stems, but I'll take it!

I didn't realize what a dramatic effect stems could have even over such short distances.


----------



## brawlo (Mar 13, 2012)

ungod said:


> Thanks for the equations, I finally got around to doing the math and realized that the Hope 20* 50mm stem adds about 35mm of stack while behaving like a 46mm stem. Alternately the 70mm adds 48mm stack while behaving like a 65mm stem. I chose the 50mm, although I would have liked the extra stack. Wish they still made their 25* stems, but I'll take it!
> 
> I didn't realize what a dramatic effect stems could have even over such short distances.


Wrong way around. Cos (adjacent/hypotenuse) gives you effective reach extension numbers. For the rise, you want to use sin (opposite/hypotenuse) of the angles. So for a 20° 70mm, you get a rise of 24mm. For the equivalent 35° you'd be getting 40mm of rise


----------



## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

brawlo said:


> Wrong way around. Cos (adjacent/hypotenuse) gives you effective reach extension numbers. For the rise, you want to use sin (opposite/hypotenuse) of the angles. So for a 20° 70mm, you get a rise of 24mm. For the equivalent 35° you'd be getting 40mm of rise


You're right about sin vs. cosine, but need to include HTA to get the right rise numbers. This handy tool does it for you.


----------



## brawlo (Mar 13, 2012)

Nice handy little tool that one. Yes, the HTA and the change in reach has to be taken into account


----------



## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Well crap, should have checked the equation 

Looks like I need a 70mm instead.


----------

