# Does Women's Mountain Biking Have an Image Problem?



## CrimsonFox (Nov 19, 2008)

I feel like there is a meek attitude towards women when it comes to biking. Many shops immediately point women towards women's specific models, even if those bikes are often inferior to the comparable men's product when the women are tall enough to easily fit on a men's bike. I sometimes see women on expensive bikes, yet they ride most the time on paved trails or urban trail systems that lack physical features. 

Women's clubs are all over the place, but do not necessarily fit every rider. Most are fitness type clubs that incorporate few skills. In my experience, most rides turn into a fitness type ride that is fast and avoids most the technical features. When reaching an obstacle that is technical, most riders opt to walk the feature instead of trying it out, despite the coaching they receive from group leaders.

The women's lounge here is primarily filled with, "which bike for my wife/girlfriend" threads. It seems many men want their wives or girlfriends to pick up the sport, but there are challenges involved. Usually, the women are not very good, they do not possess the skills needed to handle the bike and they are pushed beyond their limits too quickly. 

Is it that more women bike to support the hobby of their boyfriends and husbands? Or do most women lack the confidence and support system to pick up the sport in the first place? 

I've struggled to find women to ride with, despite being in a bike club. Most are still afraid of technical terrain. Some ride pretty fast, but they will choose fire roads, paved trails or smooth single track over anything that is technical and often give up if the trail is not easy enough to ride. People who race seem to be exceptions to this rule, but they are definitely in the minority of female riders and most of them are significantly faster than I on a bike and spend a lot of their riding time training.

Do you think the reason some women do not challenge themselves is due to the way mountain biking is promoted to women, or does it have to do with something else?


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

Asking guys what motivates women? You may as well ask a rock what powers the sun.


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## KevinGT (Dec 25, 2012)

I think it's a difference in how men and women are wired. 

My wife is an endurance athlete. She ran cross country in college and made it to the NCAA championships her senior year. She's completed multiple marathons, including qualifying for the Boston Marathon 6 months after having our first child. She's raced the Pike's Peak marathon and has done all-night endurance run. She's no stranger to pain, weather, fatigue, or exhaustion.

But she won't mountain bike. 

A mountain bike is a high tech machine and she has no interest in adding that complexity to her endurance activities. She prefers the simplicity of running. I don't think that is very uncommon.

A quick survey of households would probably indicate a similar trend. In a typical household, who primarily takes responsibility for:

- Maintaining the cars
- Fixing computer problems
- Troubleshooting the irrigation system
- Hooking up the surround sound

Sure, you can find a woman who is better than her husband at those tasks but we're not talking outliers, we're talking averages. And, on average, women shy away from more technical activities for simpler ones.


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## CrimsonFox (Nov 19, 2008)

Perhaps. But if you've tried to get a girlfriend or wife into the sport, you've got a good idea of their approach and attitude towards biking in general.


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## CrimsonFox (Nov 19, 2008)

Kevin - That's a really great point. The women in my bike club are often in awe that I do my own maintenance on a bike, even simple stuff like adjusting the shifter barrels.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Until they can figure out how to install a kitchen on a bike there will always be an image problem with women's mountain biking.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

CrimsonFox said:


> ...
> Do you think the reason some women do not challenge themselves is due to the way mountain biking is promoted to women, or does it have to do with something else?


Generally I believe adventure sports like Mtn biking tend to fit the Male persona more than the Womans. It is not to say the Women can't or won't, but when you look out door exercise activities I see the ratio of Men to Women very different in thinks like running, trail running, or road biking. Generally it seems women have more fear of crashing and getting hurt. Men tend to have more of "I crash so what" approach.

Now again this does not mean women can't ride or are not any good. I have been on rides where women will do quite well. I can relay countless cases of me trying to keep up with strong female riders on climbs, long rides and in technical terrain. I myself am reasonable strong rider. Not the best, but rarely back of the pack either. So when ever I see a woman show up for a group ride or race or on the trail I always keep an open mind. That is one thing I like about this sport is that once you get on the trail all the counts is you and how you handle things. Everyone faces the same trail with the same rocks and the same climbs and descents. Ride at your level and to hell with stereotypical expectations.

Now if you want to ask about how mtn biking is promoted to women that hard for me to really answer. I do think it is good there is a focus on women's specific gear, but when does it become pure marking games vs real tangible benefits?

In the end I would guess that women's marketing might be best served by showing women actual involved in the sport. I have a 9 year old little daughter and I would like her to start Mtn biking, but I will say she has a fear of crashing. More fear than most boys her age. What I try to do with her is to both let her know I understand her fears, but also push her and not let her "hid behind" them. I also what to show her that other girls/women ride mtn bikes so it is somehthing "ok" for girls to do as well. Will I turn her into a mtn biker? I have no idea and if I don't that is ok as well. Some people just don't have the passion and that is ok.


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## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

Crimsonfox - you're obviously not reading all the posts in the women's lounge.

Us mtb women have also been trying to figure out why more women don't mountain bike. Here are some observations from a women's perspective (every woman is different, so some may or not apply to others).

- I LOVE mountain biking and started mountain biking on my own when I heard that people rode their bikes in the woods, so I tried it. I liked it, but thought I got lost because I heard the loop was 7 miles and I wasn't done in an hour (I had no clue.) So a guy offered to show me the trail. I went and he creeped me out - end of mountain for about 10 years.
- Then, I tried it again (alone). I heard of a group and went. It was a mixed group, led by a woman. I was SOOO slow - I was always in the rear and very self-conscious about my lack of speed and skill. And I was really scared of anything technical. I almost dropped out again, but the people in the group were really supportive. If it had been a racer-dude group, I wouldn't have gone back. Note also that there have been creeps in this group, but the women stuck together to keep them at bay.
- I learned and progressed slower than men, which was frustrating to me. This was probably because I never 'played' on my bike as a kid - I just rode it on the road and learned no useful skills. Also, I'm a chicken. Also, I came into mountain biking with low fitness and strength. I went through times when I wondered if I should be on a mountain bike at all - was I just not coordinated enough? I was comparing myself to guys (usually guys who were 10 to 20 years younger), who had no fear, lots of strength, and some childhood skills.

Thankfully, I stuck with it and I bike 6 days a week. Last weekend, I got the complement of a lifetime when an accomplished male rider said that I looked like I knew what I was doing and asked me for advice on how to get up steep rocks!

- note that guys telling girls how to do things doesn't always work. I don't have the brute strength to do things my husband does (yes, I met him on the trail), and I'm not willing to take the chances he does (partly because he's crazy and partly because my skills aren't as good as his).


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Well, you need to come to Cumberland BC. Some days I see more women than men on the trails, and not just the easy trails. There is a huge women's group ride on Wednesdays that literally takes ove the local pizza place afterwards. We have one woman in our small group, the wife of one of the guys. She's a grandmother and does not shy away from the difficult trails. Even a few solo women out there as well, including one who probably has to ride alone sometimes because no one can keep up with her. I posted a few of these things in the WF but prefer to stay out of there. Last night my wife and I were out hiking and there we encountered a mom with 2 children riding, and another woman with 4 children, who couldn't all be her own. If you are a woman mountain biker this is THE place to visit, it's amazing. Overall I'm sure it's more men than women but the women are a force to be reckoned with here.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

When you try to get a significant other to take up a sport, hobby, or any activity, the point is that you are imposing your will on them. And most people don't like to be told what to do. 

That's the issue. 

Women do, in general, participate far less in cycling. I don't know why. I'm female, age 45, and I got my first drop-bar road bike when I was 8 years old. I treated it more like a CX in that wherever I decided to ride (including up steep gravel piles), I rode. When I was 10, my family started to ride RAGBRAI (That was Ragbrai VIII, I think they are on RAGBRI 43 this year. We lived in Iowa, so it wasn't that odd to do, even back then since the ride overnighted in our town that year. I went for a long time without riding after I reached adulthood, and picked it up again after I divorced. Now I have two road bikes (one race, one older style steel), one cyclocross, a Surly Krampus, and a hybrid that I need to get rid of. (I did NOT buy the hybrid first, just wanted a beater bike). 

Point: no one tried to make me start riding. Even when my family was on RAGBRAI, I had already spent several years zooming around town on my own. 

Now, gentlemen. Do you think I could convince you to take up crochet? Come on. You could make great arm warmers! Not crochet? How about knitting? It's quite technical. (Look at the diagram instructions sometime. Much easier to replace a giant ceiling fan, which I've done, though that was after I was divorced, not before. Needs must...).


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## CrimsonFox (Nov 19, 2008)

Really good thoughts. I have spent time reading through the women's lounge, but usually in the summer when it should be at a peak, but so few posts show up and again most are about what bike, which equipment, etc. Occasionally, other things come up, but nothing to keep me returning on a regular basis to that section of the forums.

I wonder what it would take to help women progress to higher levels. Again, my experience with an all women's club is they are super supportive of the newbies and teaching them the basics, but there is a huge drop-off and few ever reach a truly intermediate or advanced skill level. Maybe there is something there in the teaching an learning process or perhaps it really is just how most women are wired?


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## cobi (Apr 29, 2008)

Our local race is this weekend and despite EQUAL prize money to both genders....... there's like 37 Pro men and only 13 pro women!

My wife has no interest in riding MTB. I've asked a few times if she'd like to try it, not interested. So I've never pushed it.


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

I tried introducing my wife to mountain biking, she gave it a try but hated it after she had a crash. I tried suggesting to my sister that she take up mountain biking when she was looking for a fun fitness activity to get into, but that got immediately dismissed by "I'll get hurt!" statement.

It's all about marketing IMO. Look at commercials for sports aimed mostly at men and it's about grit and getting hit or taking big risks, versus commercials featuring women who are mostly running or working out. I think marketers think that women don't like to be shown that they could get hurt, so they don't market action/contact sports to women as much as they do for men. But the tide is definitely turning as more women are being prominently featured in sports that used to be men-only such as racing, boxing, and MMA.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Most of the women I ride with kick ass. Really kick. Here in MA, trails tend to be very chunky and technical. Most of the group rides I pedal on are mixed, most everyone holds their own. There is a womens group ride, for all abilities, great for the noob riders, with no guy egos in the way.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Men participate in more aggressive sports, such as mtn biking, than men, due to physiological and psychological make up. It's not a popular answer I realize.

That being said, I have a few (a FEW) female friends are regionally top-end racers. They rise above the crowd in physical ability and persistence when it comes to riding and racing.


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## B888S (Feb 18, 2013)

My wife only rides because she lives in a house with three boys. Myself and my 12 year old love to ride as much as possible. My 14 year old could take it or leave it. However, we all enjoy family outings on our bikes together. I would not consider her hardcore, but she has rode Mammoth for the last three summers and we are going for a week again in 3 weeks along with North Star in July for a week. As far as bikes go, at first she started with a women's specific hard tail. She has since moved on and rides a Yeti SB95 and loves it.


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## derekbob (May 4, 2005)

Travis Bickle said:


> Well, you need to come to Cumberland BC. Some days I see more women than men on the trails, and not just the easy trails. There is a huge women's group ride on Wednesdays that literally takes ove the local pizza place afterwards. We have one woman in our small group, the wife of one of the guys. She's a grandmother and does not shy away from the difficult trails. Even a few solo women out there as well, including one who probably has to ride alone sometimes because no one can keep up with her. I posted a few of these things in the WF but prefer to stay out of there. Last night my wife and I were out hiking and there we encountered a mom with 2 children riding, and another woman with 4 children, who couldn't all be her own. If you are a woman mountain biker this is THE place to visit, it's amazing. Overall I'm sure it's more men than women but the women are a force to be reckoned with here.


My anecdotal observation has been that there are lots of tough Canadian women. Something up there encourages women to get into more male dominated sports. I'm sure the close proximity to such awesome natural terrain has a lot do with it. Maybe the more laid back attitude helps as well.


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm amused by this thread, my wife rides and wants to get more women into riding.

So I asked a few female friends who are casual riders, most of them like riding a bike but they just ride for the sake of taking the kids to the park or whatever, riding for a little exercise mostly.

They really aren't riding for the sake of building significantly better fitness, other than losing some weight they don't have any desire to obtain better fitness, there's no benefits to being fit to them other than looking good, they function in their day to day lives just fine. 

Maybe this is the whole thing right here because without a fairly high level of fitness or the desire to be fit MTB is all but impossible.

My wife is somewhat intimidated by some trail features, she's also given herself 2 concussions riding, mad props to her for getting back on the trails the last 2 years, it took a full season of riding to get her back in the groove and just wanting to ride again, she rocks, a lot of other people would have just quit, some men included.

Given enough time to build the endurance needed I don't think my wife would have any issue picking up the technical skills to ride most trails.

My other friends however are too intimidated by the thought of riding the trails, they are fine with everything they can see but scared of whatever is around the next corner, that they will come up on at speed, it could be a drop, a log pile, a rock garden a grueling climb or nothing at all

They don't want to take the time to investigate the trail system to find out what they can and can't ride, even though there's plenty of willing tour guides that would not mind waiting even if they walk the majority of the trail

They don't desire any kind of adrenalin rush, which I rarely think about when riding any more, I just see it as exercise.

The other big response is that they simply don't have enough time between work, kids, other stuff

Mountain biking requires fitness be built and maintained and then skills need to be honed before it's really enjoyable, any other exercise or disciplines of riding are a precursor to riding MTB trails


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## GOTA (Apr 21, 2011)

It's pretty clear that many bike manufacturers still don't know how to market to women. 

Giant/Liv Lust, Tempt, Obsess, Intrigue, Enchant. Really? The men's bikes have names like Anthem and Glory. The women's names are all sexual and ridiculous.

"I hear you are into mountain bikes. I was thinking of trying that sport but I know nothing about it. What kind of bike do you ride?"

"I ride a Liv Lust"

"Excuse me?"

"Really it's call the Lust"

"Never mind"


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Most of the women I ride with kick ass. Really kick.


Yeah, I was gonna suggest that the OP takes a trip to our neck of the woods. I'm no stranger to getting my ass kicked by girls on bikes, be it XC, tech, DH, DJ, park, BMX...you name it. We've got a plenty of female riders around here that are all in.


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## KevinGT (Dec 25, 2012)

GOTA said:


> It's pretty clear that many bike manufacturers still don't know how to market to women.
> 
> Giant/Liv Lust, Tempt, Obsess, Intrigue, Enchant. Really? The men's bikes have names like Anthem and Glory. The women's names are all sexual and ridiculous.
> 
> ...


My 2006 HT was a Fetish Discipline.

My wife was very interested as to why I had a folder called "Fetish" on my computer desktop. I'm not sure if she was relieved or disappointed when she saw the contents.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

There are even fewer women who ride dh, and it diminishes with age

I'm not certain whether it's an image thing, I think it's more complex. Many of the reasons have been mentioned in addition to accessibility (eg geographical), expense, lack of mentorship, physical capability etc.

My story is that when I met my husband, I was a road cyclist. Road cycling is visible, accessible and fairly easy to learn. For road cycling , it didn't take long to progress from recreational riding and building strength and endurance to be able to ride long distances and ride faster (I started road cycling at age 41)

My husband introduced me to mtb. As a person who is alway seeking a challenge, I was keen to learn. However, it was a steep learning curve at 48 years old and for someone who never rode a bike on a trail. The transition was difficult and painful but I did improve as I practiced riding year round.

I'm now in my mid 50's and just purchased my first double crown. Yup I fully joined the darkside following an intro to dh in 2009. It doesn't worry me that there are so few women doing dh. I'm proud I can ride my local advanced dh trails. I still need to work on my speed, techniques like jumps and drops but I do ok.

Yes there are fewer women participating in mtb compared to other activities like running, yoga or recreational riding. When I was growing up, girls didn't play ice hockey but they do now thanks to positive role models and advocacy. Mtb will grow too but there are barriers. I'm happy to be fit and physically active doing things I enjoy. And if I can inspire others then that's a bonus too.


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## CrimsonFox (Nov 19, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yeah, I was gonna suggest that the OP takes a trip to our neck of the woods.


Don't get me wrong there are some good riders and racers here in Colorado. But the majority of women, especially those I've met through my bike club fit the description that seems to be a common theme in this thread. 
I'm an outsider because I do not race, yet I have some decent technical skill and push myself to improve and take on tougher and larger obstacles. I could not help but notice over the past few years that it is either race and be really hardcore, or just causal and maybe take it up for a spouse to just to be outside in nature.

I also see the point about downhill riding for women. I have a 6" travel trail bike that I try to take up to the downhill/ski resorts a couple times during the summer and I never see women. If it weren't for my work schedule and the distance I have to travel to get up to the mountains, I'd likely be way more into downhill riding, but I would be one of so few that enjoy that discipline of riding. It would fit well with my "I don't care how quickly I climb, I just want to go downhill" mantra.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yeah, I was gonna suggest that the OP takes a trip to our neck of the woods. I'm no stranger to getting my ass kicked by girls on bikes, be it XC, tech, DH, DJ, park, BMX...you name it. We've got a plenty of female riders around here that are all in.


Yup, and they do it all with a smile. No cussing, cursing or whining( unlike myself)


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

From what I've seen of these threads, the community is the biggest variable. In typical American suburbia, mountain biking is a little odd to many people. Witness all the threads about neighbors or family flipping out when they realize someone spent several thousand dollars on a pedal bike. 

On the other hand, I live in a mountain town with an active outdoorsy population. Lots of skiers, snowboarders, and river people. There's a lot of cross-over, and most good skiers or boarders can crush it on a bike, male or female. The town is surrounded by open land and trails. Mountain biking is not a fringe activity, and so there are many, many women who ride. Our club ride is pushing 50% women most weeks, and it's on the same night as the long-established women's group XC ride.


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## CrimsonFox (Nov 19, 2008)

Honestly, I'm to the point I would ditch the women's club if there were another mixed bike club. I should look into that.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

The number of women in mountain biking is definitely increasing. Marketers are taking notice (I mean, it's a huge opportunity--companies can basically create their own market!) and some are doing better than others. 

Women's clubs are fantastic for support and especially for beginner women, which is why I think women's group rides tend to be on less technical trails. I do think a lot of women need that girls-only supportive environment when just starting out--not all, though. I definitely know of women who, as they've progresses as riders, feel less and less that they need that woman-only support and kind of fade from the women's groups. I still think they're wonderful and necessary; it can be horribly nerve-wracking as a woman in a male-dominated setting to make yourself even more vulnerable, whether that's riding challenging terrain or admitting that you don't know what a hub is or how a derailleur works. 

CrimsonFox, the BMA Gurlz Ride up in Boulder County often rides technical trails. And PM me, I'm happy to come ride tech with you, too! ;-)


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

And let's not forget that just a couple generations ago, women weren't even allowed to play sports in most of the US. So it will take a while to catch up in every field, especially smaller ones like mountain biking. 

I predict that in about 15 years, though, things will look pretty even. There are awesome girls' youth programs in a lot of places. Society is more and more aware of how we unfairly gender certain behaviors--the daredevil boy, the frightened girl. We're smashing the patriarchy and technical trails slowly but surely.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Crankout said:


> Men participate in more aggressive sports, such as mtn biking, than men, due to physiological and psychological make up. It's not a popular answer I realize....


I think it more psychological than physiological. You don't need lots of muscle mass or need to be 6ft plus to be good mountain biker. In fact cycling and mtn biking favors those of smaller builds, but have excellent aerobic capacity. Look at both male and female pro XC racers and you don't see massive people. Not it does seem pretty clear the top pro-men are faster than the top pro-women, but that does not mean the top pro-women are slow. Those pro-women are still faster than the upper level local male club racer.

So there is nothing that tells me a woman can't ride at all let alone ride a high level. I think it comes down to desire and fear of injury. Some women have not interest and that is that. Others might like it, but worry about crashing and getting hurt. Heck even other men I talk to that don't ride are worried about getting hurt. When I tell them I mtn bike and they say "Aren't you worried about falling and getting hurt?" So I think there is an overall sport wide perception that all mtn bikers crash and get hurt. I think that perception attracts some men and while others are ambivalent to it. In general Women respond negatively to that perception and when they do try to ride often times can be put off by the typical male approach which is "let the guy ride and give him a high 5 when he crashes and draws blood".


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Testosterone (IMHO) accounts for a good portion of mtb decision making.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

This threads a bummer without photos.


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## IFallDown (Mar 2, 2014)

My wife and I got into mountain biking at the same time. At first she hated it, then I bought her a better bike, she liked it a little more. I bought her a FS carbon bike and she like even more. Now she rips through the trails like they are nothing and is talking about racing.

The thing I learned along the way is not to push her into anything she was not comfortable with. Be patient, encouraging, and the rewards with be worth the wait.

I still cant talk her into Moab yet but finger crossed for next year. 

and yes photo would be nice. lol


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> This threads a bummer without photos.


Here you go.


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## BikeIntelligencer (Jun 5, 2009)

There's sure a lot of women mountain biking here in Santa Cruz. I know cuz I see them as they pass me on the climbs.


miatagal96 said:


> Us mtb women have also been trying to figure out why more women don't mountain bike.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I did a group ride last weekend on some seriously technical trails and close to half of the attendees were women.

I'm seeing more and more women on the trails, but I've noticed that their participation differs heavily from the men I know who ride. Biggest being that they're less likely to get involved in the club. Maybe that's because they shy away from the manual labor of trailbuilding. We're still trying to work that one out and engage the women riders around town.

My wife rides and has been at it in some way or another for 10 years now. She's a lot more picky about the trails that she enjoys. She'll ride technical stuff if it's interspersed with nontechnical riding. She does enjoy sessioning stuff with other riders, but she doesn't like the whole ride to be punishing technical stuff. Partly, I think, because she's just not as strong. The upper body strength required to sustain a long, technical ride really frustrates her because she just doesn't have it.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if many other women feel the same way.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

JoePAz said:


> Generally I believe adventure sports like Mtn biking tend to fit the Male persona more than the Womans. It is not to say the Women can't or won't, but when you look out door exercise activities I see the ratio of Men to Women very different in thinks like running, trail running, or road biking. Generally it seems women have more fear of crashing and getting hurt. Men tend to have more of "I crash so what" approach.
> 
> Now again this does not mean women can't ride or are not any good. I have been on rides where women will do quite well. I can relay countless cases of me trying to keep up with strong female riders on climbs, long rides and in technical terrain. I myself am reasonable strong rider. Not the best, but rarely back of the pack either. So when ever I see a woman show up for a group ride or race or on the trail I always keep an open mind. That is one thing I like about this sport is that once you get on the trail all the counts is you and how you handle things. Everyone faces the same trail with the same rocks and the same climbs and descents. Ride at your level and to hell with stereotypical expectations.
> 
> ...


i got an ex girlfriend into riding. we got her a bike and she was really starting to pick up on it...really starting to ENJOY going fast. then she crashed and broke her collarbone. she now refuses to get on a bike of any kind again.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

BikeIntelligencer said:


> There's sure a lot of women mountain biking here in Santa Cruz. I know cuz I see them as they pass me on the climbs.


i've had women pass me on the southern section of marin county's miwok fire road like i was riding backwards...


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

While we're at it, why don't guys watch Sex in the City? Why don't guys get pedicures and read Cosmo? Why don't girls think its funny to crop dust someone? Its almost as if men and women were different or something (crazy concept, I know).


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## bigflamingtaco (Oct 26, 2013)

We engender children at a very early age. While we might think we are unbiased and treating them all the same and being open minded, subconciously we promote male activities for boys and female activities for girls. I once watched a video of a study that was done where adults were told to promote opposite gender activities for children, and while they tried, they quickly failed because their brains kepts telling them that dolls are for girls and trucks are for boys.

So we all develop strong gender bias. Not all of us retain it, but when talking averages, most of the population retains these biases their whole life.

The problem we face as adults is there are not enough women cyclists to support the promotion of women cycling, This part is easy... money is made from things that interest people. It's why the NBA and NFL are nuts rich when no other professional sport earns an athlete 1/10th as much, with some sports only offering just enough to pay middle-class bills to all but nation's best players.

Both men and women are biased towards women not being passionate cyclists. It's going to take a major national event (crisis) to change that quickly. In the meantime, do what you can to encourage. After a few years I was able to get my wife to join us with our scout troop on a bi-annual city ride. She now joins us everytime unless it is raining or above 85ºF. She does it because she wants to be with us. In no way, shape, or form, will she ride a bike anywhere else except for the occasional freak "Im going for a ride!". She is NOT a cyclist, even though it would greatly accellerate her workout routine.


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## ETChipotle (Sep 20, 2014)

I don't believe that preferences for various pursuits are going to be equally distributed between men and women. You'll find both men and women doing nearly everything, but there are going to be some things that just appeal a lot more to men than women, and other things the other way around. It's okay, they're supposed to be different. Let them be different.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Its not because of gender bias. Its because men and women ARE different despite what your Psych 101/Wimins Studies professor told you. Its ok that we are different and we should not forcibly change that. Celebrate diversity.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

CrimsonFox said:


> I've struggled to find women to ride with, despite being in a bike club. Most are still afraid of technical terrain. Some ride pretty fast, but they will choose fire roads, paved trails or smooth single track over anything that is technical and often give up if the trail is not easy enough to ride. People who race seem to be exceptions to this rule, but they are definitely in the minority of female riders and most of them are significantly faster than I on a bike and spend a lot of their riding time training.
> 
> Do you think the reason some women do not challenge themselves is due to the way mountain biking is promoted to women, or does it have to do with something else?


The reason you don't find a lot of women following you into the techy trails is probably the same reason you aren't fighting to keep up with the racers who are "significantly faster" than you. If it was important to you, you could start hanging with the faster girls. I don't think it's because of any meekness that's been projected onto you or how the sport is promoted to you as a woman, is it? Whatever your reason is, that's the reason. peace K.


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

I still don't get why women mountain bikers agonize over how to get more women involved in mountain biking. If someone expresses an interest sure, I'll encourage them. But I don't feel there is any need to try to draw others into it, and honestly don't care what the "gender ratio" is. I would be totally happy if mountain biking remained a fringe sport. The trails are too crowded already.

"Image Problem"? I didn't even know womens mountain biking HAD an image. In general, I think the whole sport has an image problem-- people who don't mountain bike think of FR/DH when they think of it at all. Again, why is it a concern? 

I didn't start mountain biking because it was "cool" or I saw some pro racer and wanted to be like them. I'll wager most of us who are long time riders didn't start riding or keep riding because of an "image". We all have our individual reasons to ride, and we all ride to suit ourselves. I count myself as a mountain biker and I enjoy challenging myself on technical features at times. I want to continue to improve my skills, but I don't feel the need to risk broken bones to enjoy my ride. If you want to ride with people who like chunky tech, then go out and find them- be they male or female. Don't insist that there is something "wrong" with other women riders because they don't enjoy the trails just like you do.


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## mudgirl (Jun 19, 2007)

If you want more ladies involved in mtb'ing in your area, you have to make it more inviting to them. When I first started mtb'ing, I lived in central NY at the time. I didn't know many women in the area who rode. I went to a couple of skills clinics organized by the Saratoga Springs LUNA chix, and was completely inspired by the strong, supportive women in that group. They inspired me to put together something similar back in my hometown of Ithaca. I went back and started putting together and promoting some women's only rides. I found that the women were willing to ride, but lacked the skills, just like me. So I organized a few skills clinics for the ladies taught by the Saratoga LUNA chix, who graciously drove 3 hours to Ithaca and spent the weekend with me to put on the clinics several times. Then I invited Kathi Krause of Dirt, Rocks, and Roots based in NJ to put on some more intermediate/advanced level clinics. It took several years, but you can now find just as many women riding the trails around Ithaca as you do men. On many of the weekly group rides, which are co-ed, you will find MORE women than men. 

The key is to create the right environment. Don't just put on basic skills clinics. Intermediate and advanced skills clinics are extremely lacking, but this is the key to progressing off of "easy" singletrack and feeling comfortable on more technical terrain. I relocated to central MA a couple years ago, and as a couple people have already mentioned, the trails out here are extremely technical. I felt like a beginner again all over. And again, in the BV NEMBA chapter where I am located, there weren't many women riding. They re-vamped their weekly rides to include a more diverse array of riders, and more women started showing up to the beginner rides. Now those women are ready and eager to move on to the next level! While there still aren't a ton of intermediate/advance level women active in the BV NEMBA chapter, there IS a large, supportive group of women in the Quiet Corner NEMBA chapter, which is just south of us. So we hook up with those ladies and go for rides, session stuff, and learn more advanced skills. They also take trips to Highland to get more of the ladies exposed to DH'ing and most of them love it. 

So... to make a long story short, you have to be willing to create a supportive environment for women to ride if it doesn't exist already. It all depends on how important it is to you.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

MtbRN said:


> I still don't get why women mountain bikers agonize over how to get more women involved in mountain biking. If someone expresses an interest sure, I'll encourage them. But I don't feel there is any need to try to draw others into it, and honestly don't care what the "gender ratio" is. I would be totally happy if mountain biking remained a fringe sport. The trails are too crowded already.
> 
> "Image Problem"? I didn't even know womens mountain biking HAD an image. In general, I think the whole sport has an image problem-- people who don't mountain bike think of FR/DH when they think of it at all. Again, why is it a concern?


I agree with this. Then again, I've always been the kind to lean towards male dominated activities... when I was into the whole street racing and drag racing thing, I actually grew to dislike other females at events because most of the time they just wanted to show off their pink accessories and pick up guys, whereas I was over in the corner tuning my standalone and showing off my big turbo on an engine I built myself. I never wanted to bring other females into the car scene because the motivations were usually all wrong.

I started mountain biking with an ex boyfriend as a way to gain fitness and to start being active and happened to live somewhere with amazing trails. Within a month I started racing, and it pissed off the ex that I was getting faster than him. So I'm not sure what he wanted out of the whole thing of me on a bike, but it grew into something awesome for me! I'm the competitive racer type, so I don't participate in much geared around women because it tends to be at a very basic recreational level. Instead I ride alone or have a group of guy friends I go out with if I feel the need to ride with others. I am on an all women's cycling team, and it is awesome to see more and more of the road ladies jumping on mountain bikes, but I agree, most are scared of crashing. Personally I'd rather crash on a mountain bike trail any day over the road, but that's me... I'm covered in scars, and much don't care if it's appealing to the opposite sex. My boyfriend now I met at a cyclocross race and he doesn't care about my scabbed up, scarred up, bruised up body and thinks I'm a badass, so it all worked out 

I don't really participate much in the women's lounge on here as I don't find much in common with most of the posters. It is more of an all mountain, trail, baggies, long travel scene, and as a higher level XC racer I don't necessarily care about the same things... so I spend my time mostly on the XC race subforum or the regional forums. I think sometimes women can be the worse at thinking XC doesn't involve any skill, anything technical or difficult and just involves bike paths, yet most women I know who race XC are incredible badasses on a bike on difficult terrain. Plus I'm almost 5'10" so I cannot recommend bikes for short people to ride as I've never had that as a problem, and that is the bulk of threads in that section!

I will say on my local trails (Curt Gowdy State Park) there are often days i only run into other females on the trails. It's awesome, and definitely has increased over the 3 years I have been riding. I like that more women are riding alone and getting out there.

So no, women's mountain biking doesn't have an image problem... the entire sport does. I can't recall how many times people have posted Redbull Rampage videos on my FB wall going, "whoa, I can't believe you do this!" No, that's not the mountain biking I do, but thanks... I prefer to pedal very fast uphill, ha!


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Quite a few years back I was on a road trip and rode South Mountain in Phoenix. I was climbing up slowly and a woman on a red SC passed me. She was impressive and made the tech climbing look easy. A while later a guy on an identical bike catches up to me. I asked him if they were together. He replied "yup, that's my wife. I got her into mountain biking 2 years ago and now I can't keep up with her."


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## Andrea138 (Mar 25, 2009)

bigflamingtaco said:


> We engender children at a very early age. While we might think we are unbiased and treating them all the same and being open minded, subconciously we promote male activities for boys and female activities for girls. I once watched a video of a study that was done where adults were told to promote opposite gender activities for children, and while they tried, they quickly failed because their brains kepts telling them that dolls are for girls and trucks are for boys.
> 
> So we all develop strong gender bias. Not all of us retain it, but when talking averages, most of the population retains these biases their whole life...


I was trying to figure out how to say the same thing, but you hit the nail on the head pretty hard.

I've done some trailside coaching with both guys and women. The first thing I noticed is that when a dude effs up (stalls, falls, dabs, walks, etc) it's sort of an "oops" thing. When a woman screws up in a similar fashion, she immediately apologizes. Why? I'm not 100% sure, but it seems that a regularly occurring theme with women learning a new skill is that they want to say they're sorry for messing up in a way that's totally expected and common for a person (male or female) who is learning that skill. 
Neither gender wants to fail at what they're doing, but it seems that women have a hard time saying, "screw-ups are a normal part of the learning process" instead of "I'm sorry I screwed up. I really suck at this."


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## CrimsonFox (Nov 19, 2008)

There is a "supportive" environment for women mtbers where I live, but again it is totally geared toward the beginner crowd. The club has not necessarily grown in ideology as their numbers have increased in the past several years. 

I definitely agree with the idea of sexualizing women's biking just in the way they name the equipment. I've always felt the same about the snowboarding equipment as well. It took a long time before I found anything there that was aggressive as as good as men's equipment. 

It is not so much about increasing the number of women in the sport. I think many riders agree, less is more. More trails for those who ride, being able to get away from the crowds, etc. 

Outside magazine had an article about the perpetuation of women's gear to beginners and ways to get outside with your kids, etc. The general idea was the equipment was not necessarily good and that the way outdoor activities are promoted is done so in such a way to diminish the advancement of women in traditionally male sports. I also understand from talking to a variety of my female friends that they feel put off if they are exposed to people who are of a higher skill or their sport is promoted in such a way that it is not beginner friendly. 

The other theme I've started to notice is some, obviously women, get super defensive about the fact they enjoy novice level riding. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. However, why is there not more of a middle ground of riders? There are obviously some women that fall into that category, but the bulk fall into the novice level. Is that due to the way the industry markets itself? Maybe. Is it because women are more likely to be risk obverse? Seems more likely. Comfort is certainly important. 

The comments about how far women in sports have come is definitely on point. As is the idea that women in other countries are far more into biking (Canada, Great Britain for example) that we are here in the US and I'm sure geography has a something to do with it (more biking nearby = more people participating).

I notice that many women would rather give up that figure out how to improve. Many resign themselves to being second to someone else, but then complain when they are not given the same opportunity. Even friendly competition to improve is rejected. I see this in my day to day life as a teacher of history (generally a male dominated discipline) and as a long time high school coach. This type of internal ideology carries over into the rest of life and in recreational activities such as biking. For all intents and purposes, the discussion of women in the mountain biking community is an opportunity to explore these same ideas, but through a lens that you are familiar with and probably see often while enjoy this sport. The same issue arises in nearly every single facet of day to day life in the US and it has greater social, economic and political consequences than we would probably like to admit. On some level the challenges women face and the attitude they adopt towards their day to day activities impacts how women as a whole are viewed.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

My head is spinning.


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## deanna (Jan 15, 2004)

KevinGT said:


> A quick survey of households would probably indicate a similar trend. In a typical household, who primarily takes responsibility for:
> 
> - Maintaining the cars
> - Fixing computer problems
> ...


Mountain biking woman here -- I pay to have the car worked on (I can do simple things like change oil, battery terminal when the old one was stripped out, etc.), but the rest is all on me... I am also single. Even if I were to get married, I've become pretty self-sufficient by this point and would expect the man to be able to do things like laundry and housework from time to time.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

deanna said:


> Mountain biking woman here -- I pay to have the car worked on (I can do simple things like change oil, battery terminal when the old one was stripped out, etc.), but the rest is all on me... I am also single. Even if I were to get married, I've become pretty self-sufficient by this point and would _*expect the man to be able to do things like laundry and housework from time to time. *_


You do more car care than I do.  Regarding your possible future husband - Would he have to watch the Hallmark Channel? :cryin:


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I do the laundry, most of the housework, my wife cooks (amazingly) and gardens a lot. WTH is a Hallmark channel? Anecdotally, I saw one of my neighbors and 2 of her friends gearing up for a ride today. I know her husband a bit and knew he does some riding.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mudgirl said:


> Kathi Krause of Dirt, Rocks, and Roots based in NJ to put on some more intermediate/advanced level clinics.


I've ridden with Kathi a few times, as well as Dawn Bourque and Karen Eagan.
Awesome riders.

You should try to hook up with some of the Merrimack Valley folks sometime too; hit a NEMBA ride at Russel Mill or Lowell. Good bunch.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

In BC, I say half jokingly, "Is mountain biking a girls sport?"

I live in Kamloops BC, at least 50% of the riders on the trails are women. When ever I ride in Squamish, I see similar numbers of women. From the sounds of it other people are seeing similar trends in the province.

A huge number of the women are true beginners but there is starting to be a lot of good very female riders.


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

CrimsonFox said:


> The other theme I've started to notice is some, obviously women, get super defensive about the fact they enjoy novice level riding. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. However, why is there not more of a middle ground of riders? There are obviously some women that fall into that category, but the bulk fall into the novice level. Is that due to the way the industry markets itself? Maybe. Is it because women are more likely to be risk obverse? Seems more likely. Comfort is certainly important.


Wow, I think you are waaay over-thinking this.
Try thinking about it this way... many people TRY mountain biking. If you look at Craigslist in Denver/Colorado Springs/Fort Collins you will find dozens of used mountain bikes being sold (both men's and women's frames) with explanations like "only ridden twice practically brand new" or "hasn't been ridden in over a year and want it out of the garage", etc. Many people buy a bike, ride a trail a time or two (then tell you they "mountain bike" which always sets my teeth on edge) and by the following spring the bike is hung up in the rafters, pushed into the corner, has a flat, whatever and never gets ridden again. Only a few people are going to try mountain biking and say "I LOVE this" and go all in.

As my SO pointed out- this is how most people do sports/hobbies. They try something for a couple of years, then move on to something else. So most of them never progress past the beginner/intermediate stage.



CrimsonFox said:


> I notice that many women would rather give up than figure out how to improve.


As someone else pointed out- mountain biking is NOT an easy sport to get good at. You need to build fitness and skills and that takes persistence and effort. Like golf, many people remain at the "hack" level or give up on it because they are not willing or able to invest the time and effort to improve.



CrimsonFox said:


> Many resign themselves to being second to someone else, but then complain when they are not given the same opportunity. Even friendly competition to improve is rejected. I see this in my day to day life as a teacher of history (generally a male dominated discipline) and as a long time high school coach. This type of internal ideology carries over into the rest of life and in recreational activities such as biking. For all intents and purposes, the discussion of women in the mountain biking community is an opportunity to explore these same ideas, but through a lens that you are familiar with and probably see often while enjoy this sport. The same issue arises in nearly every single facet of day to day life in the US and it has greater social, economic and political consequences than we would probably like to admit. On some level the challenges women face and the attitude they adopt towards their day to day activities impacts how women as a whole are viewed.


I don't think that the number of women participating in bicycling or HOW they participate is particularly relevant to "social, economic and political consequences" or indicative of how they might face other challenges in their lives. I think that you're reaching here. It's just a (very fun, IMO) outdoor activity. Efforts to make it part of social commentary just look silly to me.

Incidentally, I've ridden a Blur, a Superlight, an Enduro and now am on a RIP-9. No problems with sexy names on MY bikes.


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## mudgirl (Jun 19, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> I've ridden with Kathi a few times, as well as Dawn Bourque and Karen Eagan.
> Awesome riders.
> 
> You should try to hook up with some of the Merrimack Valley folks sometime too; hit a NEMBA ride at Russel Mill or Lowell. Good bunch.


I have ridden with those ladies as well at some of the NEMBA adventure rides, and I agree, they are an amazing group of ladies! I wish I lived a little closer so I could ride more often with them.


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## mudgirl (Jun 19, 2007)

CrimsonFox said:


> There is a "supportive" environment for women mtbers where I live, but again it is totally geared toward the beginner crowd. The club has not necessarily grown in ideology as their numbers have increased in the past several years.


Right, it's supportive toward beginner women riders, but not more advanced riders (you). I think this is a common issue, and that's where I'm saying someone needs to step forward and create the type of environment where they do feel comfortable improving their skills, with rides geared toward sessioning technical spots, with skills clinics geared toward intermediate and advanced riders; rides in a non-judgmental atmosphere. When this is available to them, the women who are interested in improving their skills will step forward and take advantage.

But yes, there are a lot of women out there who mountain bike purely for recreation, and they are not interested in advancing their skills. Honestly, I don't understand why you're limiting yourself to riding with women. Almost all of the guys I ride/have ridden with have been/are as equally supportive as the women I have ridden with, just in a different way. Riding with a co-ed group vs. a women's group is different, but one is not better than the other. If you can't find women to ride with who help push you in the direction you want to go, then go find a group of men who will!!


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

MtbRN said:


> Wow, I think you are waaay over-thinking this.... I think that you're reaching here. It's just a (very fun, IMO) outdoor activity. Efforts to make it part of social commentary just look silly to me.


Phew, thanks for posting that. I thought I was the only normal person here.


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

mudgirl said:


> But yes, there are a lot of women out there who mountain bike purely for recreation, and they are not interested in advancing their skills. Honestly, I don't understand why you're limiting yourself to riding with women. Almost all of the guys I ride/have ridden with have been/are as equally supportive as the women I have ridden with, just in a different way. Riding with a co-ed group vs. a women's group is different, but one is not better than the other. If you can't find women to ride with who help push you in the direction you want to go, then go find a group of men who will!!


Exactly!


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Travis Bickle said:


> WTH is a Hallmark channel?


It's a cable "woman's" channel with made for cable romance and life stories. It's the same Hallmark as in the sentimental greeting card company.


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## CrimsonFox (Nov 19, 2008)

HAHA - The Hallmark lineup is epic! 

Now off to ride and break some stereotypes! But who knows, I might meet Mr. Right to sweep me off my feet on the ride!


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Gasp4Air said:


> It's a cable "woman's" channel with made for cable romance and life stories. It's the same Hallmark as in the sentimental greeting card company.
> 
> View attachment 992610


Now I remember why we got rid of cable.


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

The best way to get more women into mountain biking is to absolutely forbid it.


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## tahic (Jul 21, 2008)

CrimsonFox said:


> Really good thoughts. I have spent time reading through the women's lounge, but usually in the summer when it should be at a peak, but so few posts show up and again most are about what bike, which equipment, etc. Occasionally, other things come up, but nothing to keep me returning on a regular basis to that section of the forums.
> 
> I wonder what it would take to help women progress to higher levels. Again, my experience with an all women's club is they are super supportive of the newbies and teaching them the basics, but there is a huge drop-off and few ever reach a truly intermediate or advanced skill level. Maybe there is something there in the teaching an learning process or perhaps it really is just how most women are wired?


Why do we need to "progress to higher levels"?
I am a women now middle aged. I took up MTB about 5 years ago. I am not a beginner and I will never be at higher levels because thats not why i ride but i can out climb and out distance many men because for me it's all about the journey and the journey means I ride long and I ride a lot so that I can experience the journey. I stop to take photos and enjoy the place I am in. Thats MTB for me. I don't ride in clubs because quite frankly when I have the women involved are too keen on the look and I always end up feeling inferior and they seem to not want to do it all cos hubby is there for all that dirty stuff.
In the last 18mths I've fallen a lot resulting in breaking both legs, 5 ribs, a shoulder, both collarbones and puncturing my lung so I'm not timid and I have had to fight to come back from those injuries big time.
I fix my own bike, I build my own bikes, I research my own bikes and the changes I want to make. I love my bikes.
The women's lounge irks me also because there is a disproportionate number of posts from men asking what bike, what saddle etc etc. Thats the whole problem, she's not asking!!!
It's a sport not for women or for men just a sport that gives me a great deal, it keeps me fit, allows me to see places I wouldn't otherwise see, I get to meet great like minded people, it doesn't need this gender bending stuff. If you like it ride!


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## mark! (Jun 1, 2012)

I used to try to get my wife to ride more aggressive trails, but she was perfectly fine with riding what she rode. It took a while, but I got used to it and just let her ride her own ride. I honestly don't know why I pushed her, but it just didn't work. Now, we put slicks on her 29 and she's off like a rocket on the road, which is pretty awesome. 

We have a good group of women who ride in North TX, a few are freakishly quick and ride any thing you throw at them, have some decent sponsors and race any chance they get. It's awesome being around them and watching them do their thing. But, and here's the thing I think is really important...the gals who kick ass on the trail reach out to those who may be new or struggling and kind of guide and coach them if it's wanted. For a guy to tell a woman what to do, it usually comes out wrong, but for women to step up and help other women, we've seen our weekly trail rides go from 1-2 women to anywhere from 4 to 10 during the ride.


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## KevinGT (Dec 25, 2012)

CrimsonFox said:


> HAHA - The Hallmark lineup is epic!
> 
> Now off to ride and break some stereotypes! But who knows, I might meet Mr. Right to sweep me off my feet on the ride!


How was the ride? Looks like the weather was iffy with "cloudy with a chance of love" predicted.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

No. No image problem at all.

In NE Ohio the women's cycling scene, including MTBing is really good. There are multisport groups, Ray's Indoor MTB Park Women's weekend, and group rides (on and off road).
There are a lot of factors that differentiate the ladies from the men (besides the obvious).
1. Many of the women MTBers came from road riding. Plenty o' fitness, basic off-road skilz. Very competitive.
2. Many of them are at the age where crashing hurts. Lots of the guys are in the same group.
3. Most of the women do not have any aspirations of pulling Red Bull Rampage type tricks. Most of the guys hope someone will catch them doing something "cool".
4. _Most_ women ride more patiently than men - more finesse. Men are often impatient, compete instinctively, and apply brute force methods to riding (really, it makes us feel better... exerting effort takes away the sting of failure when we screw up). Only a few women combine that finesse with big power, as do only a few men. The women's hammer head group is smaller and less visible, but it's there.

So the women's _groups_ seem to ride at a more basic level. As a group, that is a smaller group than the men's group, that is probably true. As individuals, though, probably the same % of women ride at just as high a level as the same % of men, and probably the same % of women ride at a more basic level as the same % of men. It's just a smaller group. You won't find 15 women ripping down the trail in a big group. You'll find 4 or 5. Those 4 or 5 are really fun to ride with. They're out there, but if they're not leading a women's group ride, you probably won't catch them. 

-F


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## KevinGT (Dec 25, 2012)

On another note, I know two of my "local" (meaning within a couple hours) mountain bike centers have dedicated women's clinics and rides.

Mulberry Gap Mountain Bike Getaway, in north Georgia, has a very popular women's mountain bike camp/clinic hosted by Lindsey Vories.

And the best bike shop on the planet, The Hub, in Pisgah, has weekly womens' rides all year.

Both are very popular, from what I can see.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

CrimsonFox said:


> I feel like there is a meek attitude towards women when it comes to biking. Many shops immediately point women towards women's specific models, even if those bikes are often inferior to the comparable men's product when the women are tall enough to easily fit on a men's bike. I sometimes see women on expensive bikes, yet they ride most the time on paved trails or urban trail systems that lack physical features.
> 
> Women's clubs are all over the place, but do not necessarily fit every rider. Most are fitness type clubs that incorporate few skills. In my experience, most rides turn into a fitness type ride that is fast and avoids most the technical features. When reaching an obstacle that is technical, most riders opt to walk the feature instead of trying it out, despite the coaching they receive from group leaders.
> 
> ...


I think it's partly the way that the sport is promoted to women, and attitudes from bikeshop dudes have a lot to do with that, but I think a bigger aspect has to do with the ways that girls are raised vs. how boys are brought up. Boys, typically, are encouraged, both by their peers and by their fathers and older brothers, to physically throw themselves into sports and activities, to fall down and get back up again. Young girls, unless they're allowed to become tomboys, not so much. Ultimately, the sport becomes defined by gender normative roles: boys with skinned knees grow up to become fearless men who are unafraid of crashing and taking risks on technical terrain, where as girls who are coddled and taught to avoid risk and physical harm, develop into women who are risk averse and timid riders.

the challenge, as you've lauded, is to get more women into racing, preferably at a younger age, as well as get more women working in shops, so that they have an opportunity to mentor new female riders and encourage their growth in the sport. We're fortunate, here in philadelphia, to have some great outreach opportunities for women: Women Bike PHL - Bicycle Coalition of Greater Philadelphia a few kick-ass teams, including Team Laser Cats as well as a few mixed gender teams and a number of bike shops that employ active women riders on their floors. It's a start.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Lopaka said:


> The best way to get more women into mountain biking is to absolutely forbid it.


Absolutely the best strategy.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

I just did a race with some women who are absolutely killing it! My ex wife can ride if she decides she's going to & can ride some pretty tough trails for someone who's only ridden off road a handful of times but she prefers hiking, so not much time for mtb. She is one of the toughest people I've ever met -once she makes up her mind to do something, nothing will stand in her way.

An ex-girlfriend rides quite well off road but is not too serious about it. She could ride at a very high level of she chose to spend the time doing it but she prefers to spend her energy in cross-fit. She is also a super tough person -driven, hard working & can do anything she sets her mind to.

Current girlfriend enjoys leisurely road rides & is thinking about riding off road. I encourage it but in no way push for her to do so -if she wants to, she will, if not, no worries, plenty of other things we can do together.

Something I've learned over the years is to not push someone harder than they are comfortable with -doesn't matter if man, women or child. Actually, children can be pushed a bit harder -I was able to get ex gf's daughter to climb a bunch of hills she never could before -she gave me every excuse in the book but I encouraged her to stay on the bike & tough it out. She did & would always brag about her new accomplishments to her older brother, especially if he chose to quit on something.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

KevinGT said:


> On another note, I know two of my "local" (meaning within a couple hours) mountain bike centers have dedicated women's clinics and rides.
> 
> Mulberry Gap Mountain Bike Getaway, in north Georgia, has a very popular women's mountain bike camp/clinic hosted by Lindsey Vories.
> 
> ...


My wife and I are going to Mulberry Gap with some friends (one of whom is a damn fast female rider who can drop most guys I know). My wife has also signed up for Lindsey Voreis clinic at The Bike Farm near Brevard in Sept, IIRC. Stoked for that one, as I'm tagging along for the ride.

The Hub really is an awesome shop. I was ogling the chi chi parts on the counter when we were there in April.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

I had the pleasure of being "Ride Guide" to four Ladies on their very first trip into Real single track.
They had been riding together for only a few months and had gotten bored in the flat trails and with fire roads.
Their bikes were not up to anything but basic Intermediate trails and It just so happened that we have a few real nice hilly single tracks with some bust yer behind climbs and some rather fast not to steep down hills, and a few rollers..

They rode up and down and pushed bikes up and down. The best part was the Laughter, It was constant except when they would all go quiet looking down some hill that disappeared into the tree's.

I don't care if they are hooked or not, It was fun for all of us.
I bet they stick with it 

In my neck~0~da woods It's always about 2 or 3 out of 10 are girls, Always has been.


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## snowgypsy (Jun 5, 2011)

evasive said:


> From what I've seen of these threads, the community is the biggest variable.


I think this. Many individuals, male and/or female, are influenced by where they grew up, the values and the culture that they experienced, and the characteristics/qualities of that space.

I lived in Ohio. I always had a competitive spirit, but mtb wasn't a "thing." Competitive girls and guys ran xc or played baseball/football or soccer. So, that's what I grew up doing/loving.

I didn't fall in love with mountain biking until I moved out to Crested Butte. I'm very lucky to live in a place that actively supports and cultivates my passions, providing knowledge, inspiration, guidance, and a whole lot of love.

And the women here? Sometimes, they scare me. In a good way. 

Now, don't get me wrong. Gender stereotypes are absolutely present and they do impact what women and men expect from themselves and from others. I also think that marketing within the mountain bike community could benefit by abandoning certain stereotypes and telling the whole story... Some of us are DH queens. Others? Love a nice flowy loop. Still others? Love to climb. Some ladies love working on their bikes. Others don't. Some (myself included) really do think pink is the most bad a$$ color on the planet. Others don't.

Sometimes, in the wake of all this theory, we forget that people are more than their gender.

I love DH. My husband doesn't. What does that tell us? Just that I like DH and he doesn't.

Behind every generalized conversation about gender, there are real people who break those stereotypes and reveal them for what they are - convenient and terribly flawed and in no way able to express the brilliant diversity of actual people doing actual things.

This conversation (though not intended) has a negative tone. The tone seems to be - most women I meet aren't that into mountain biking (as I would define it)...what's wrong with them? The answer: *absolutely nothing. *

Wouldn't it be amazing to go on a ride? To just ride what you love, the trails that you like, for the reasons that you like and not be judged for it? To clear that drop and have it be awesome, not because "you are a girl," but because you are _ you_, to ride with the guys and have it not be a "thing," to ride with your girls and have it not be a "thing"? To walk something because you aren't feeling it? To like your flashy pink grips and have those flashy grips *not* be psycho-analyzed?

I teach women's literature and, as a result, I think about gender nearly every second of the work day. On my bike? It's the only time where I feel human. I think that's why I mountain bike. Because it reminds me of who I am, strips away all the excess and leaves me just as me - utterly strong and completely free.


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## trom (Apr 22, 2015)

My wife and I are getting back into MTB this year after not riding for two years (triplets will do that). The reason we didn't ride at all for two years is (my oinion) MTB sport has fundamental issues that make it unappealing us as a casual activity. I can't really go do an epic ride once a month during the warm months and have that be a pleasant experience. 

I can golf, ski, or fish a couple times a month and have fun. For MTB I need to put in my base miles each spring and need to ride regularly to maintain conditioning (such as it is). If I shut down riding for three weeks or a month, I have to start over from the beginning each time. Pain. 

For an average american couch potato trying the sport, I think the need to build and maintain fitness while at the same time learning the needed bike handling skill set makes it hard to generate enough positive momentum to really get going as a hobby. 

I think most American women have a harder time finding time for themselves to go ride and instead focus on the things that they seem to always focus on, family, the kids, work, community, and get distracted from the need to devote enough time to get in a good groove fitness wise where they can then develop the fully fledged addiction. 

So no I don't think its an image problem, not that the image is good. I think the hurdles for MTB appealing to the average woman are reflective of core american lifestyle issues not easily solved with a new slogan or spokes woman.


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## rushman3 (Jan 24, 2009)

On the fun side......just remember it was done by local Bend women who rip



whohttps://vimeo.com/11976491


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## rushman3 (Jan 24, 2009)




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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

rushman3 said:


>


BuuuwhahHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

The language that 'lady' in the video used, my gosh

No wonder women mtbers have an image problem


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## CrimsonFox (Nov 19, 2008)

rushman3 said:


>


Oh. My. LOL I haven't seen that in a while, but I forgot how dang funny that is.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

trom said:


> ...
> 
> I can golf, ski, or fish a couple times a month and have fun. For MTB I need to put in my base miles each spring and need to ride regularly to maintain conditioning (such as it is). If I shut down riding for three weeks or a month, I have to start over from the beginning each time. Pain.
> 
> For an average american couch potato trying the sport, I think the need to build and maintain fitness while at the same time learning the needed bike handling skill set makes it hard to generate enough positive momentum to really get going as a hobby. ..


I don't know that Mtn biking is for everyone. It does require fitness to be successful, but a lot of sports require that. Skiing is not something I do often due to the cost, but it also requires skill at fitness. One full day skiing is hard on the legs. Even if you have cycling. Golf... well golf requires lots of time to hone skills and those that golf a lot tend to be better (there are always exceptions).

For me mtn biking is both fun thing to do and a "building" activity. I want to be fit so that I can Mtn bike well, but I also want to be fit over all and Mtn biking is great way to do that. Simply put if you have no desire to be fit at all. Then Mtn biking will always be a challenge the same way running will be a challenge.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Women's comedy has an image problem.


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## sarah morin (May 8, 2015)

Actually, I think that all this is related with women's personnalities. I've been riding for years now.And I do admit that at first it was hard.. My bike didn't fit me at all, always the slowest, Ups and downs seemed to me too risky and hazardous.. But I struggled and I continued to practise my passion.. You know why ? Because I was found of Mountain Biking *-* I kept telling myself that one day I'll do it and yes that happened.. So to all who says that mountain biking is not for women or that women's image is not as good as the men, you're unfotunately wrong.. because when there is a will there's a way..


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## trom (Apr 22, 2015)

JoePAz said:


> I don't know that Mtn biking is for everyone. It does require fitness to be successful, but a lot of sports require that. Skiing is not something I do often due to the cost, but it also requires skill at fitness. One full day skiing is hard on the legs. Even if you have cycling. Golf... well golf requires lots of time to hone skills and those that golf a lot tend to be better (there are always exceptions).
> 
> For me mtn biking is both fun thing to do and a "building" activity. I want to be fit so that I can Mtn bike well, but I also want to be fit over all and Mtn biking is great way to do that. Simply put if you have no desire to be fit at all. Then Mtn biking will always be a challenge the same way running will be a challenge.


On the suburban street where I live my wife is the only woman who goes cycling. Any cycling. In that context, diving into MTB trail riding is a poor entry point to the sport of cycling.

A better entry point and is getting into cycling in a casual way. Too many American women are missing out on cycling as a lifestyle activity. Biking to the movies or farmers market is a great value added to activities people do all the time.

Making cycling generally more a part of the everyday urban and suburban life grows the sport. For men and women that are already cycling as part of their regular day to day, the idea of going for an MTB ride is no longer aa -- are you crazy? -- its something that has become approachable.


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## Shakester (Jun 26, 2012)

I usually bike with a few of my guys that I know and one time, I decided to bring my GF and I could see the disappointment in their faces when they saw her. I knew what they were thinking because they've told me before why they didn't bring their wives or girlfriends were because it slowed them down. She pulled her girlie bike off the rack and she already sensed the uneasiness of her presence, but I didn't care and neither did she. BTW, her bike is a Santa Cruz Juliana. She ended up just embarrassing all of us on climbs to where she had to stop and wait. She's a machine, but she's also in great shape. She's a runner and is always on her bike trainer at home. As we got into the flow section of the trail, they all just took off as if to show off but I stayed with her and were still right on their tails. One guy even wiped out because he was going faster than he's use to. After the ride, I could see that they were impressed, but my GF never wanted to ride with them again. She said there was way too much testosterone on the mountain for her. LOL

When it comes to XC riding, it doesn't matter whether you're a man or woman. Climbing just isn't about power but about stamina and endurance.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

I like group rides that include women. Sometimes they are faster uphill, sometimes, slower. Occasionally they are good in the gnar, sometimes not so much.

That's no different than riding with a bunch of guys.

What is different, to generalize, is that their fun on the trails isn't influenced by some macho/ego mindtrip thing that stokes some competitive fire inside them and turns what would otherwise be a great group ride on the trails into something less than it could have been.

The women I've ridden with on group rides want to ride with the group as a part of the group. On the other hand, some of the men always have to show everyone they are or should be the leader of the group by virtue of their blazing speed, power, and bike handling skills. 

Women on the ride tend to balance out the guys with uncontrolled testosterone - not because they are slower and/or not as capable technically, but because they are not men.

Yea for women mountain bikers. We need more of them.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

This thread is filled with a checklist of sterotypes and assumptions about gender. It's a mistake to think that these are inherent rather than learned behaviors. We are taught to not be interested in these things from Day 1. The women who are exceptions can almost all tell stories about hanging out with their dads as kids, or about being expected to excel at the same level as their brothers. For those who don't, it isn't because they couldn't, it's because no one asked them to join in.

Why am I who I am? Because my cowboy father had 3 daughters - if he wanted to have fun with his kids, he was gonna have to take the little girls fishing. Net result - we all have high end jobs in typically non-women dominated fields (tech, finance, professional sports), advanced degrees, we all excel at athletics, and we are all raising rad feminist sons. I also have over a dozen female cousins whose parents expected them to be typical women. Their families are filled with heart disease, obesity, every specific gender role, lots of cooking and not a lot of education for the women. It wasn't genes that made my sisters and I different, it was a cowboy dad who fell for a surfer girl and got his expectations flipped upside down when it came to what his daughters thought was fun.

Have you ever tried to introduce a guy to gravity/oriented sports in middle age? They have the exact same fears and reluctance to restart after a crash as do women. But, almost every guy gets a bike when he is a kid and already has some sense of how gravity and balance work as an adult. Many many women are learning this for the first time in middle age. Maybe if instead of assuming that their daughters weren't interested, dads taught them to countersteer when they were still on Striders, you wouldn't see women reluctant to take up a sport that had so many unfamiliar aspects as adults.



KevinGT said:


> I think it's a difference in how men and women are wired.
> 
> My wife is an endurance athlete. She ran cross country in college and made it to the NCAA championships her senior year. She's completed multiple marathons, including qualifying for the Boston Marathon 6 months after having our first child. She's raced the Pike's Peak marathon and has done all-night endurance run. She's no stranger to pain, weather, fatigue, or exhaustion.
> 
> ...


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Men are stronger, faster, and more athletic than women. This translates to more men picking up something like mountain biking.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

CrimsonFox said:


> Honestly, I'm to the point I would ditch the women's club if there were another mixed bike club. I should look into that.


why not start a ride on a tech trail that's label as hitting the tech stuff, sessioning, etc? Not all gals are roadies turned xc racers (yes, I know that's a stereotype but i know exactly the kind of rides she is talking about) and then you can be the change you want to see.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

CrimsonFox said:


> Really good thoughts. I have spent time reading through the women's lounge, but usually in the summer when it should be at a peak, but so few posts show up and again most are about what bike, which equipment, etc. Occasionally, other things come up, but nothing to keep me returning on a regular basis to that section of the forums.
> 
> I wonder what it would take to help women progress to higher levels. Again, my experience with an all women's club is they are super supportive of the newbies and teaching them the basics, but there is a huge drop-off and few ever reach a truly intermediate or advanced skill level. Maybe there is something there in the teaching an learning process or perhaps it really is just how most women are wired?


RE women's lounge... make it what you want it to be. Introduced yourself in the Howdy thread? Posted a pic in all our bikes? Posted a ride pic in "Todays Pic or Story"? Yes it gets quiet sometime. Talk about what you want to talk about.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

GOTA said:


> It's pretty clear that many bike manufacturers still don't know how to market to women.
> 
> Giant/Liv Lust, Tempt, Obsess, Intrigue, Enchant. Really? The men's bikes have names like Anthem and Glory. The women's names are all sexual and ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Cove Handjob


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Scott O said:


> Men are stronger, faster, and more athletic than women. This translates to more men picking up something like mountain biking.


I'll buy usually stronger, maybe faster, but not athletic. Too many women are too awesome in too many sports.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I help run a hugely successful women's ride in my community. I co-host it with a local DH/enduro pro, and I've been involved in women's biking for years.

No one women's ride is EVER going to meet everyone's needs. When we decided to start our ride, since she and I are opposite ends of the riding spectrum, we decided to do what we wanted. It's social, no drop, but beyond that we don't stick to one trail or trail system. 
We start the season off at our super easy/flat singletrack area, and then change every month. Sure some of the climbs are tough for some riders, and some gals need to skip certain trail features. We'll split up fast/slow sometimes. We are no drop always, even if it means a real meander up the hill as the "caboose" of the lady trail.

In the meantime... our facebook page has 275+ members in one year, 100 of those in the first 48 hours. We've been told our rides are too fast, too slow, too big, too social, not social enough, too easy, too hard, wrong day of the week etc. There's no pleasing everyone. We know we can't be all things to all gals. Some people don't show up for our "scary trail" rides or our shuttle rides, and some don't come to our flat area rides.

We've certainly filled a need for some people as we have 20+ show up every week. I know there is another group that meets weekly at the flat easy trail system and that's great for them if that's where they want to ride every week.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

Scott O said:


> Men are stronger, faster, and more athletic than women. This translates to more men picking up something like mountain biking.


Some men are... than some women. I'd put myself in the top third of fitness for men, but there are plenty of women on the trails who are stronger, faster, and more athletic than I am. And that is with the huge bias towards make riders in MTB. in some segments on Strava I'm in the top three percent and there are still a fare number of women faster than me.

The most recent research suggests that women's muscles are denser than men's and if they trained the same as men might be stronger. It is just that culturally we tell women they are weaker and that heavily muscles women are ugly, so far, far fewer do strength training or even recreational activities that are believed to require strength. It is a self fulfilling cultural cycle that has nearly no basis in the body.


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## Revalimage (Jul 26, 2009)

It's getting better out there - when riding solo, I'm finding more and more women out there and the balance in my local lift line is getting better balanced. As a member of many women groups; true that some are mostly focused on XC types of rides, but are willing to try tech and get better -- but I'm also part of an enduro racing group that does lift-assited DH riding regularly and we go in search of tech, jumps, drops and features to concur. We have finally locked into a rip-roaring fun group of girls (of all ages - I have 3 grandkids, a few other are grandmas and they race DH expert and pro classes) that are VERY encouraging, tough, fast and just amazing riders that share and help teach those looking for the same. And I'm VERY grateful and thankful to have the opportunity to ride with them!

As for 'The Image' of women in riding, my biggest area of concern is with the up and coming 'ladies only' lines of bikes from the bigger manufacturers (Giant, Santa Cruz, Specialized, etc) - why? Bike geo should be the same, just different sizing -- just sell WHAT WORKS! (maybe in more colors?) And why do these lines of bikes always seem to have steeper geo, less travel and girlie names and funky colors AND WTF is it with long stems and narrow bars as standard components on the builds? They think women don't want to shred and feel stable on the dirt? I have a feeling if some of these XC style ladies were to get on proper bikes they would feel so much more stable and take on bigger and better challenges.

Like spaghetti on the wall - some stick, some don't. I personally don't care how fast up the hill other than holding the fitter riders back - it's all about the down and the challenge. But each and every woman out there needs to find what she likes and where she wants to go on her ride level - find a group and start riding with them.

my 2 cents~

Oh - and haven't read too many posts - but CANADA and the North Shore folks, you are blessed with amazing trails. I think this has something to do with your qty of better women riders. Where I'm located we have to SEARCH out true technical terrain and jumps. Just when we get a GREAT local dig spot going, someone gets hurt and the family tries to sue, they close it or if in a local park - sanitize it. Wish we had more options!


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## mudgirl (Jun 19, 2007)

Ladmo said:


> I like group rides that include women....
> 
> Women on the ride tend to balance out the guys with uncontrolled testosterone - not because they are slower and/or not as capable technically, but because they are not men.


Thank you for expressing this. This sentiment is exactly why the women's only rides I started eventually turned into co-ed rides. A bunch of guys I mountain biked with on other rides approached me and asked me if some they could start joining our women's rides if they promised not to pull the macho man act. I jokingly told them that they could so long as they wore a skirt, but I talked it over with the ladies who regularly came to the women's only ride, and they were willing to give it a go. So we did, and it went great!

There was one summer when I rode with a group of guys who were very testosterone driven every Friday night. They were super fast, much faster than me, but they always walked any techy terrain. So I always used to catch up to them in those spots and wow them when I could ride through/over stuff they always ended up running their bikes through. Over the course of a summer, I taught them how to pick better lines, and they made me faster--not as fast as them, but a heck of a lot faster than I was at the beginning of that summer. It was a win-win for all of us!


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Mixed rides are best, IMO. I'm really glad that our weekly club ride has grown from having one woman rider to now having over half a dozen semi-regulars. It's not uncommon for us to be 50/50 in a group of 18 or so. And the club's name is the Gravity Guild, which can be intimidating. 

One of my friends almost always wants his group rides to be at least 40% women. That comes from his years as a river guide. We were stopped way back in the mountains once when a group of 10-12 rode past and he commented on the fact that it was an "all-dudes" group.


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## digitalsoul (Feb 17, 2004)

chuky said:


> This thread is filled with a checklist of sterotypes and assumptions about gender. It's a mistake to think that these are inherent rather than learned behaviors. We are taught to not be interested in these things from Day 1. The women who are exceptions can almost all tell stories about hanging out with their dads as kids, or about being expected to excel at the same level as their brothers. For those who don't, it isn't because they couldn't, it's because no one asked them to join in.
> 
> Why am I who I am? Because my cowboy father had 3 daughters - if he wanted to have fun with his kids, he was gonna have to take the little girls fishing. Net result - we all have high end jobs in typically non-women dominated fields (tech, finance, professional sports), advanced degrees, we all excel at athletics, and we are all raising rad feminist sons. I also have over a dozen female cousins whose parents expected them to be typical women. Their families are filled with heart disease, obesity, every specific gender role, lots of cooking and not a lot of education for the women. It wasn't genes that made my sisters and I different, it was a cowboy dad who fell for a surfer girl and got his expectations flipped upside down when it came to what his daughters thought was fun.
> 
> Have you ever tried to introduce a guy to gravity/oriented sports in middle age? They have the exact same fears and reluctance to restart after a crash as do women. But, almost every guy gets a bike when he is a kid and already has some sense of how gravity and balance work as an adult. Many many women are learning this for the first time in middle age. Maybe if instead of assuming that their daughters weren't interested, dads taught them to countersteer when they were still on Striders, you wouldn't see women reluctant to take up a sport that had so many unfamiliar aspects as adults.


And your post is not a checklist of assumptions and stereotypes? According to you, it is a mistake to say gender behavior (preference) is inherent, rather than learned. Do you not see a problem by saying that gender behavior is only learned and nothing is inherent? Maybe, just maybe, our behavior is a combination of the two?

Next, you assume that your typical woman will have heart disease, be obese, cook all the time, and be uneducated. Finally you say women are reluctant to take up a sport because their dad didn't teach them to get on a bike when they were young. Can you not see where you are making even more sweeping generalizations and assumptions?


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

You misquote text directly above your own. It's kind of hilarious and I enjoy reading it. Thank you.



digitalsoul said:


> And your post is not a checklist of assumptions and stereotypes? According to you, it is a mistake to say gender behavior (preference) is inherent, rather than learned. Do you not see a problem by saying that gender behavior is only learned and nothing is inherent? Maybe, just maybe, our behavior is a combination of the two?
> 
> Next, you assume that your typical woman will have heart disease, be obese, cook all the time, and be uneducated. Finally you say women are reluctant to take up a sport because their dad didn't teach them to get on a bike when they were young. Can you not see where you are making even more sweeping generalizations and assumptions?


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## snowgypsy (Jun 5, 2011)

Let's bring some love to this thread.

Ladies night in CB was a huge success! 20 ladies showed up to shred from all backgrounds and all skill levels - from a pro rider on a single speed to someone on her third ride ever. We fell in line, explored many a trail, and much fun was had by all. No drops. No hammer time. Just lots of love, some rad riding, laughs, and a whole lot of beer.









There's a lot of love in our town for all things bikes...did I also mention that we are building a new trail tomorrow and widening an existing trail for hand cycles? Awesome times!

The world would be a much better place if more people rode their bikes more often.


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## edmpt (Feb 20, 2014)

*I wish I could keep up with women like this....*

And don't underestimate Claudio..he's a bad ass rider!

FORT WILLIAM 2015 HELMET CAM


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## spiritualspatula (Mar 21, 2013)

I think there are a lot of things at work that aren't terribly conducive to women in mountain biking. First, I think part of it is that girls in general just aren't encouraged into sports in the same way boys are. I'm not arguing "extreme sports" vs standard sports, I just mean ANY sport. The same push isn't there. So, if you've never been faced with abject failure, physical inadequacy, and the strife that is sports as a whole, mountain biking is going to be a horrible experience. As we all know, mountain biking is a humbling, failure filled journey of masochism. The second is that the overwhelming majority of media is inherently male dominated. It's nice to see Dakine, for instance, recently having some sharp ads with women in them. Beyond that, in most videos, interviews, etc, it's very male dominated. There aren't the same options for aspiring girls to be enamored with and want to duplicate- even Rachel Atherton and Tracy Moseley aren't really given much media. To compound that, women racers often get very little money, making it financially difficult to even be a pro (and yes, I understand that promoters want top names in the industry (read that as "men") because they are buzzwords, again, see above for how this is a cyclical issue). Further, with fewer women attempting to compete in events, they are often bumped up or down in category due to the lack of numbers. I know this makes sense from a functional standpoint, but a young girl racing people 4 years older due to lack of interest just dissuades them, as they will obviously get destroyed and then end their racing career. Third, women are often introduced (due to the already stated disproportionate number of men and earlier reasons) to mtb by pushy significant others who mean well but are probably pushing too hard and often expect rides with their girlfriend to mirror rides with their friends, which is hilariously fraught with problems. Alternately, they go riding on their own and get sick of creepy mountain bike dudes hitting on them on the trail. The behavior of a huge number of men on the trails is vastly different to women vs men, notably being way more pervy. 

So then what happens? The women that do begin are less likely to be comfortable that there is a distinct likelihood that they will be injured. The women I've gotten into mountain biking had backgrounds in other sports, and falling was viewed as "something that happens" because they were used to sports injuries and the difficulty of learning. Those who were mortified, had never done anything hard of the same caliber and humbling difficulty. To top it all off, the products aimed at women are inherently less aggressive and entirely toned down (barring the Roubion). Just offering more sizes and colorways would negate the issue and even solve the perceived issue that women apparently require teal, pink, and purple frames (which is pretty hilarious to begin with). But beyond all that, there is still the issue that it's still a largely 'good 'ole boys club.' We have some notable trolls on this so far, who (I presume) are actually being serious, and sure, if women (for whatever reason) just don't like mtb, then okay, whatever, I'm not saying MTB OR DIE! But when I go to Winter Park to do some downhill with my girlfriend and there are enough douchey comments made by people around us in the line about women that she begins to feel uncomfortable, there's a problem. Lest somebody argue it's just "bro's who dh," it happens at trailheads and elsewhere too.

The good news? I feel like last year, I saw a LOT more women at Winter Park getting after it. I've been seeing more women's based clinics for skills, which are good, as well. Not because I necessarily think you need to always teach differently, but because then you can avoid the negative influence of pervy dudes. I live in a resort town with tons of mtb'ers, and the mix is pretty good, but I also think that's due to everybody already taking part in sports, be it skiing, mtb'ing, or any host of other options. In general, things have been getting better, but there are some obvious hurdles, too.


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## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

MtbRN said:


> I still don't get why women mountain bikers agonize over how to get more women involved in mountain biking


I wish I did not read that. That is too funny. I am very happy when I do not see anyone on the trail. "Guess what honey, you know that trail I found that if I take a left at the rock it leads to a fire road? I SAW A COUPLE MEN ON MOUNTAIN BIKES THERE TODAY!!!! WHOO HOO!!!!"



miatagal96 said:


> So a guy offered to show me the trail. I went and he creeped me out - end of mountain for about 10 years.
> 
> Note also that there have been creeps in this group, but the women stuck together to keep them at bay.


All guys are creeps. Ask a good friend-you are out in the woods alone and you see a gorgeous babe-fill in the blank(tell the rest of the story). If his story does not include deep pine needles behind the shrubbery, he is lying.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

CrimsonFox said:


> The other theme I've started to notice is some, obviously women, get super defensive about the fact they enjoy novice level riding. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. However, why is there not more of a middle ground of riders? There are obviously some women that fall into that category, but the bulk fall into the novice level. Is that due to the way the industry markets itself? Maybe. Is it because women are more likely to be risk obverse? Seems more likely. Comfort is certainly important.
> 
> I notice that many women would rather give up that figure out how to improve. Many resign themselves to being second to someone else, but then complain when they are not given the same opportunity. Even friendly competition to improve is rejected. I see this in my day to day life as a teacher of history (generally a male dominated discipline) and as a long time high school coach. This type of internal ideology carries over into the rest of life and in recreational activities such as biking. For all intents and purposes, the discussion of women in the mountain biking community is an opportunity to explore these same ideas, but through a lens that you are familiar with and probably see often while enjoy this sport. The same issue arises in nearly every single facet of day to day life in the US and it has greater social, economic and political consequences than we would probably like to admit. On some level the challenges women face and the attitude they adopt towards their day to day activities impacts how women as a whole are viewed.


I dunno... A lot of what you're describing above just doesn't jibe with my experience of riding with women. I've never known a woman to get defensive about riding novice trails. I just can't imagine how that conversation would happen? And I've found that I hear far less complaining when I ride with women than when I ride with men. I ride with plenty of intermediate to advanced (though not pro) women.

I think it just comes down to the specific group of women you're riding with. We're all going to have our reasons for wanting to ride the trails we do, for wanting to improve, or being satisfied with our current level... Some years for me are all about mountain biking and I hit it really hard and I'm a total badass, and some years, I'm just not feeling it as much, so I don't find much growth from the previous season. I think you'll find the same in circles of riders who are all men.

So maybe the women you're riding with don't meet your expectations of what a women mountain biker should be. 1. Check yourself, because no one has any obligation to meet your arbitrary standards and 2. keep looking for your community. The people you're riding with are obviously just not your people. Go find them.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Here's our group from last night, looking rather industrial and dystopian. (lol, we should have faced the other way)
This group includes a local pro DH rider, a brand ambassador, several coaches, beginners, experienced, fast, slow, many looking to connect, There's no one box that we all can be put in except female on a mountain bike.
FWIW the area we are riding at is known for tech & flow trails, and lots climbing.


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## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

formica said:


> industrial and dystopian.


Industrial-
1: of or relating to industry 
2: derived from human industry <industrial wealth> 
3: engaged in industry <the industrial classes> 
4: used in or developed for use in industry <industrial diamonds>; also : heavy-duty <an industrial zipper> 
5: characterized by highly developed industries <an industrial nation>

dystopian
1: an imaginary place where people lead dehumanized and often fearful lives

I don't get this.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

I'm not sure where "image" comes into the conversation. All the local HS MTB teams are co-ed. They must find the girls somewhere.


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## Grimgrin (Sep 15, 2014)

Industrialization is associated with desolate looking landscapes with machinery in the background. I think the picture fits that vibe.

In a dystopian society, the perception is people likely need to scavenge and cobble together gear to survive. Since the riders in the picture lack uniformity in the way they dress or the bikes they ride, I also think the picture fits that vibe.

Picture for reference: https://cinemeccanica.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/mad-max-pic2.jpg


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Thanks for getting it Grimgrin.
Especially as compared to scenic panorama that's in the other direction.


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## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

Grimgrin said:


> Industrialization is associated with desolate looking landscapes with machinery in the background. I think the picture fits that vibe.
> 
> In a dystopian society, the perception is people likely need to scavenge and cobble together gear to survive. Since the riders in the picture lack uniformity in the way they dress or the bikes they ride, I also think the picture fits that vibe.





formica said:


> Thanks for getting it Grimgrin.
> Especially as compared to scenic panorama that's in the other direction.


Thank you for answering. I was afraid I sounded critical. I really did not get it.

You are both either way over my head or have extreme imaginations. I thought those were commonly used terms in Iceland.


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## Grimgrin (Sep 15, 2014)

No worries, perhaps a different cultural perspective.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Check the mags and vids and you see grim faced men putting in all the energy they can muster to slay some bit of trail. I don't think the average girl relates to that well. I don't either. As much as I like to push it at times, I really like how girls smile and chat and generally have a good time riding. It makes guys look a bit possessed when you compare the two groups.

Edit: Woops sorry Grimgrin, I didn't notice you there when I typed my first sentence.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

My son and I went and hit some trails in my old neck of the woods about 45 minutes away Sunday. These ladies had an all-levels ride going on, and they were rolling almost 50 deep. :thumbsup:

Team LUNA Chix | Welcome










Even after they cleared out, for the next few hours I ran just almost as many ladies as guys. Hung out a bit with a couple that consisted of an obviously experienced mtb chick taking her boyfriend on his first ride on her old hand-me-down bike; little turn of the usual screw. 
It was a pretty cool day, made me think of this thread. One of very few times on the trails IME where ladies vastly outnumbered guys. And no, I didn't fantasize about banging any of them next to the trail in the poison ivy. We were all just out there enjoying riding bikes.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Greg Minnar recently won his 17th world cup downhill race, matching Steve Peat at the top of the list.......except for Rachel Atherton who has won 22.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

MOJO K said:


> Greg Minnar recently won his 17th world cup downhill race, matching Steve Peat at the top of the list.......except for Rachel Atherton who has won 22.


Rachel continues to dominate the world's podiums, proving that she is arguably the best female Downhill Mountain Biker on the planet! She is inspiring


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

cyclelicious said:


> Rachel continues to dominate the world's podiums, proving that she is arguably the best female Downhill Mountain Biker on the planet! She is inspiring


Fix that up for you, Smiley?
Rachel continues to dominate the world's podiums, proving that she is arguably the best Downhill Mountain Biker, male or female on the planet! She is inspiring


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

MOJO K said:


> Fix that up for you, Smiley?
> Rachel continues to dominate the world's podiums, proving that she is arguably the best Downhill Mountain Biker, male or female on the planet! She is inspiring


Cool! So her times are faster than the guys? Impressive!


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Scott O said:


> Cool! So her times are faster than the guys? Impressive!


She owns her competition like no one else in the sport. I stand by my statement. Twenty-two wins and she's 27 years old...how many more before she's done?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

She might also be the most vapid.

"For the sport and the longevity of the sport, to wear cool race kit and to make an image for yourself is more important than the odd win here and there."

www.cyclingnews.com - the world centre of cycling

Bike Snob NYC: BSNYC Wednesday Fun Quiz!


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

MOJO K said:


> She owns her competition like no one else in the sport. I stand by my statement. Twenty-two wins and she's 27 years old...how many more before she's done?


There's a high school baseball team that has won 5 straight state championships. By your reasoning that would make them the best baseball team on the planet. Political correctness run amok.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

digitalsoul said:


> And your post is not a checklist of assumptions and stereotypes? According to you, it is a mistake to say gender behavior (preference) is inherent, rather than learned. Do you not see a problem by saying that gender behavior is only learned and nothing is inherent? Maybe, just maybe, our behavior is a combination of the two?
> 
> Next, you assume that your typical woman will have heart disease, be obese, cook all the time, and be uneducated. Finally you say women are reluctant to take up a sport because their dad didn't teach them to get on a bike when they were young. Can you not see where you are making even more sweeping generalizations and assumptions?


This.

I am a former Army Ranger-qualified infantry officer. I've done some pretty, ahem, interesting things in far off places. Ended lives as the pointy end of American foreign policy. I think I'm a pretty "manly" dude. All 5'6", 145lbs of me.

And yet, it is my wife who does all of the work on our cars. She rebuilt the engine on her Subaru Outback last summer, changed the struts on my Impreza last weekend, changes the oil on both our cars whenever its needed. She built all of the furniture in our house, from raw lumber that she selected herself. She's currently pursuing her PhD, after deciding that her JD from Emory wasn't leading her where she wanted to go in life.

How is this possible? My wife wasn't handed Barbies in a room painted pink. She wasn't dressed up as a ballerina, and she doesn't obsess over whether her nails match her outfit.

Similarly, I love to cook, and I make dinner more than half the time. I will most likely be the one who stays home when we have kids and she's a professor. I'm comfortable with who I am; I don't have to prove that I'm a "man" to anyone. My wife will have two terminal degrees, and I'll only have a lowly MS. I'm fine with that. And exceptionally proud of her.


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## unrooted (Jul 31, 2007)

When my wife first started mountain biking she asked if she was going to get a huge as$ like all the other women mountain bikers, I assured her that they had those before they started riding.

Have you guys ever been to a Dual Slalom race? It's quite interesting the difference in speed between the top men and women. . . too bad I wouldn't be able to keep up with either. . .


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

MOJO K said:


> Fix that up for you, Smiley?
> Rachel continues to dominate the world's podiums, proving that she is arguably the best Downhill Mountain Biker, male or female on the planet! She is inspiring


Rachel is an impressive rider and competitor, for sure. But when considering her dominance it's worth remembering that as part of Team Atherton, Rachel gets a degree of support that most of her peers don't. There are quite a few of the top 10 women who still have day jobs.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Scott O said:


> Cool! So her times are faster than the guys? Impressive!


No, at the elite level men are statistically faster in gravity disciplines. In the last two WC rounds, Rachel would have placed 77th and 78th among the elite men, despite being faster than anyone we're likely to know. I won't try to explain it; maybe it's mass-related but there are some skinny dudes out there, too. You can compare times and stats for gravity races at Roots and Rain. The two links below show at a glance the winning men's and women's times for each race in the series.

https://www.rootsandrain.com/series489/2015-uci-world-cup/

https://www.rootsandrain.com/series509/2015-enduro-world-series/

Proportionally, women's time seem closer in enduro than in DH. You'll also see Tracey Moseley's name a LOT. A cynic might suggest that her switch from DH to enduro has something to do with Rachel's dominance. For fun (it really is an impressive site):

https://www.rootsandrain.com/compare.html?i=748x747

Back to topic, I reiterate that in a place with an active outdoors culture, there are many women mountain bikers. If it's something that seems normal and fun and people want to do it, they will.

There is an active middle and high school girls team here, and I have a friend in Missoula who coaches a large group of girls the same age:










At that age the programs are more about life lessons- dealing with problems, not quitting and pushing on when you might not be excited about it, etc. but they also normalize and demystify mountain biking.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

formica said:


> Thanks for getting it Grimgrin.
> Especially as compared to scenic panorama that's in the other direction.


 I understood the first post but thought you were indicating that the camera should have stayed put and the riders turned (backside toward the camera) which didn't seem logical. Funny how you can misinterpret the easiest things.


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## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

Giving it some thought, I am getting pretty apprehensive today. First of all, I said all guys are creeps.



misterbill said:


> All guys are creeps.


I have a tendancy to give up(I might not give up, but it is definitly my first reaction).



CrimsonFox said:


> I notice that many women would rather give up that figure out how to improve.


I would rather ride on fire roads or non technical trails.



CrimsonFox said:


> I've struggled to find women to ride with, despite being in a bike club. Most are still afraid of technical terrain. Some ride pretty fast, but they will choose fire roads, paved trails or smooth single track over anything that is technical and often give up if the trail is not easy enough to ride.


But this is the clincher. I did not even want to be seen today.



spiritualspatula said:


> Just offering more sizes and colorways would negate the issue and even solve the perceived issue that women apparently require teal, pink, and purple frames (which is pretty hilarious to begin with).


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## oldbroad (Mar 19, 2004)

First - thank you to this thread for giving me the incentive I was lacking to get my butt off the chair and go down to the local trails and give them a womanly presence. ;-) 

I started mtbing about 15 years ago and road riding about 5 years ago and the most common word I hear from women when bicycling riding, mtb or road, comes up is scared. Many women who don't ride, and even some of those who do, are scared of falling, cars, riding alone, looking dumb, and getting lost. I guess both men and women are scared of those things, but it seems more women have a harder time overcoming them.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Scott O said:


> There's a high school baseball team that has won 5 straight state championships. By your reasoning that would make them the best baseball team on the planet. Political correctness run amok.


Your point is made...but if you call me politically correct again we've got a problem.


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## 3blackbikes (May 4, 2011)

I'm in a pretty tiny niche of female riders. I love endurance xc racing, and I'm pretty good at it. Not the best, but some wins and podiums in the last couple of years. It's just who I am: I like the extreme challenge, and my body doesn't seem to "wake up" until about 3 hours into a ride.

Do I wish more women did these races? You bet. It's not quite as satisfying standing on the top step of the podium out of default because you're the only woman to race it. 

But I also kinda enjoy being the odd (wo)man out. It's pretty cool flying through an aid station and having people shout out "It's a girl! Wow!" Again, maybe that's my personality. I am pretty competitive (I grew up with 3 older brothers who used me as a science experiment) so I like trying to do what the dudes are doing. I just do it more gracefully.


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## Hooch (Jun 30, 2006)

watch on track with Curtis Keene. He competes in the World Enduro mtb races and his video, whilst about him and his 2014 season also has a lot of interviews with the woman racers, what was interesting was that they ride the same course as the men, no differentiation based on sex so hearing their comments and thoughts is pretty amazing. I tried to get a former GF into mtbing without success, but then last year she surprised me but offering to help volunteer at a 24hr mtb race and she enjoyed it. Maybe a step in the right direction.


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

*It's environmental.*

My daughter is a an accomplished Mountain Biker. She has fears like anyone else but has had a long athletic career which started when she was on skis at 2 years old and continued in a number of sports through her University Soccer team. She is confident in her abilities and rides with a variety of people. This year she has started racing. My family is very athletic and we enjoy skiing and riding together. My sister on the other hand has been a more stereotypical middle aged woman. Her family is not athletic, although they dance they do not ski or ride bikes of any sort. To her great credit my sister has become active to celebrate her 50 birthday and has lost 60 pounds. She hasn't started biking yet but it may not be far off. It may be tough to start at her age ...


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Bottom line: women's Mtb does not have an image problem. Lock this thread.


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

CrimsonFox said:


> I feel like there is a meek attitude towards women when it comes to biking.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Is the meek attitude towards the women or is it from the women?
> ...


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2015)

Roy Miller said:


> My sister on the other hand has been a more stereotypical middle aged woman. Her family is not athletic, although they dance they do not ski or ride bikes of any sort. To her great credit my sister has become active to celebrate her 50 birthday and has lost 60 pounds. She hasn't started biking yet but it may not be far off. It may be tough to start at her age ...


 I think the key is easing into the sport and seeing if a passion for cycling grows. My wife didn't really ride on a regular basis until she turned 48, but she's riding 3-4 times a week and has worked her weekly mileage up from 15 to over 50. Key for her was getting the bike to fit correctly. I find with older cyclists (both men and women) a more upright position alleviates stress on the wrists and shoulders making it more comfortable to ride.


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## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

I went on a beginner ride tonight with a local trail advocacy group-the only man in the group besides me was the leader. I would say that there were only two in the group who seemed a little timid, most of them ride better than I do. I have never been on a group ride, it was a really good fit for me at my riding level. The leader stopped more than I would on a ride-but I usually stop when I am out of breath, so by stopping often I never got to that point. The leader asked me if I was going to come back next week. I am surprised how much I enjoyed riding with a group.


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## Gorn1120 (Jul 18, 2015)

-What is the likelihood of a mountain biker having a childhood history of riding?
-Males are more likely to be adventurous/risky with their bikes as an adolescent.
-Are the stats comparable to the female presence in motocross?
-It is a sport based more on strength than grace, so it's naturally more masculine to do; women have been introduced to many sports, but I feel this realm is still growing.


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## ClarkGnar (Jul 28, 2015)

unrooted said:


> When my wife first started mountain biking she asked if she was going to get a huge as$ like all the other women mountain bikers, I assured her that they had those before they started riding.


Wonder if women don't ride because of women, and men, like you and your wife?


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## UPSed (Dec 26, 2010)

I guess I am a lucky man!


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Gorn1120 said:


> women have been introduced to many sports, but I feel this realm is still growing.


So which sports have women not been introduced to? Beer Olympics? Greco Roman wrestling? Competitive food eating? F mountain biking, women's images in those sports needs some serious improvement.


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