# Upgrading hand me down GF Precaliber 20" - Functionality improvements/weight savings



## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

*Upgrading hand me down GF Precaliber 20" - Functionality improvements/weight savings*

Hello&#8230;

My daughter is loving trail riding  She's six, loved Off the Top in Mammoth and we're finding some local trails she just can't wait to get back on. She's riding her sister's old GF Precaliber and will be for at least three more years and this bike could be potentially be moved onto my 3 year old son with a new paint job too. Really would like to lighten it up and make it a lot easier for her to shift as she climbs like a bat out of hell if she can get it in the right gear. Loves going downhill. Never taken a bike a part but willing to try. So need your help in some smart reasonable upgrades. Been searching and think found a few ideas but please chime in&#8230;

Functionality:

- Sram X4 Trigger Rear Shifter (8 Speed)
- Sram X7 Rear Derailleur (Medium Cage)
- Shimano CS-HG41 11-34 8 Speed Bike Cassette Mega Range MTB. I don't know if she needs this as she climbs normally in the second ring? Going to be climbing with her older sister and friends so just thought maybe a good idea. But could use stock(?) and spend that money on something to lighten the bike up or upgraded fork?
Rear hub when it spins is grinding and not very smooth. Swap the hub? Whole wheel?
Am I missing something or do I need a tool to make this happen?

Lightening the bike up:

- Love to get her some lighter wheels as rolling mass but not sure it's smart money?
- Find some used carbon riser bars (OK to cut down right?)
- Suggested headset? Carbon?
- Carbon seat post? Does anyone know what size?
- Sinz Expert ISIS Crank Arms 135mm
- Sinz Expert BB
- Salsa Front Chain Ring 34T
- Kenda Small Block 8 tires with lightweight BMX tubes (this saved two pounds) Once she destroys the current treads.

- Always wonder with us going to Mammoth is it smart money to upgrade to disk? My bike's v brakes worked just fine but? Or would it be better money to put it towards lighter cranks or wheels?

Light set suggestions? We do a lot of riding for frozen yogurt at night and wondering if there's a cheap light set stocking stuffer you guys like? Doesn't have to last more than 30 minutes or so?

Anything else throw it at me :thumbsup:

Thanks for your help in advance,

Smkntrls


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

The folding bead schwalbe mow-joes are an even lighter 20" tire; 
Mow Joe HS 371 | Schwalbe North America 
Dont wait until current stock tires are worn out, they likely will outlast your families use of the bike and be a constant source of heavy weight.

Your current rims are probably as light as you are likely to find for a 20" rim, there are not really appropriate kid-weight rims made, just adult rim extrusions rolled down to smaller size. You might want try try re-building using the existing rims with better hubs and using fewer spokes for weight savings. See my wheel re-build (and a light shock modified as a 20") at thread ; http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/novara-pixie-20-project-853041.html#post10746706

Disk brakes will make a kids bike heavier compared to V's. I would start with lightening the crank and wheels as you have suggested.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Wholly smokes GrayJay your Novara Pixie 20" project is awesome. I'm going to have to pull up a frosty one and sit down for an in depth read. Any thoughts on the Spinner Air 20 Fork? Tearing apart a fork kind of scares me and I definitely don't have the confidence in telling my wife I know what I'm doing ;-) The Spinner is expensive but it will stay with the family for at least six or seven more years. I'm assuming swapping it out won't be too much trouble and I can move it to a different bike if need be. Biggest concern is serviceability and related parts to do so. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Any thoughts on the capability of the Mow Joe's on the trails in Mammoth? The first set my oldest wore out so I upgraded the tires to a Specialized Spanky up front and Kenda rear tire that's very beefy/aggressive and I'm sure heavy for the trip to Mammoth. They worked well and she pretty much stops on a dime which is what I was hoping for. The weight I may just live with but get some lightweight BMX tubes.

Thank you again for sharing,

Smkntrls

Anybody have experience swapping cranks on the GFP? What kind of BB would I use. Thank you...


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

1500gr for the air spinner 20" is a lot of weight for a 6-yr old to lug around;
http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/spinner-air-20-fork-772610.html

If you don't want to DIY convert a fork to 20" then finding a lightweight rigid fork might be a good alternative and could easily save couple of pounds.

Pretty sure the GFP would just have a standard british/ISO (Euro in BMX speak) bottom bracket shell. If you are using an ISIS spline crank, then a MTB width ISIS cartridge bottom bracket (with british/ISO threading) should work fine in the frame. The bottom bracket you can use is more dictated by the crank than by the frame.

See Jordans other recent GFP 20" thread for more on the BB and crank;
http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/20-custom-build-project-876592.html


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Awesome GrayJay. So I'm sorry to say I didn't get to review your thread on the link above last night but will be tonight. I thought the Spinner would be much lighter than the standard rst and used all it's travel and therefore xxx but now I'm tempted...

Please let me know what you'd think would be a reasonable to nice upgrade for a fork. My main concern now is adjusting the angles to much on the bike, and serviceability. I don't mind tinkering and learning about how a fork works and improving her ride exponentially. I'd actually like to get into it so I can service the rest of our family's bikes shocks. I've serviced/torn apart my KTM but never the forks/shocks so I'm a little intimidated.

Is there another thread I should also get into tonight on this that you suggest reading? And thanks for the link to Jordan300 build. Don't know how I missed that one.

Also is it tough removing the rear cog from the wheel? Any of those upgrades I mentioned you think I should adjust up or down a level? Again this bike will be used for at least six/seven more years.

Thank you so much and have a great day. PM me if you'd like.

Smkntrls


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi...

Took a quick minute to figure out how to measure some things and ran into a couple posts and saw that potentially GrayJay I may not need to do any spacing adjustments with the rear cassette? Did I read that right?

Also NYrr496 did you swap the rear hub for the XT as a necesity? Do I need to do the same to achieve this build? Was your hub going bad? Mine is starting to grind and maybe I should buy a cheap shimano replacement and have some fun trying to build up a wheel for the kids?

FYI my goal is to tear this down and build it up in front of about 15 neighborhood kids + parents who are starting to get into MTBing. So any and all feedback will be for the benefit of not just me but for all of them as parents are skeptical about what I'm preaching to them about the fun of the sport and it's positive attributes.

Also here's some measurements I took of the bike that I think are relevant. Someone please share with me a good tear down/measurement/build thread I'd be happy to read it to learn about what I should have on hand to do so. Anyone please confirm my measurements for accuracy and how to and if it was necessary that would be great. As I certainly don't want to buy the wrong components. Thank you. Smkntrls

Fork is 1' 10" from top to bottom
bottom bracket to bottom of fork wheel tabs 1 ' 3"
8" from the top of the fork crown to the top of the stem where the cap goes

BB width is 66.675 mm
Fork stem diameter is 1 1/8 or 28.575

Seat Post circumference is 1.5" or 38.1 mm

Stem (from middle of fork tube to middle of the handlebar) is 63.5 mm
Bar thickness is 79.375 mm
Bar length is 558.8 mm


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Sadly, a new, ready to purchase lightweight suspension fork for a 20" bikes simply does not exist. Spinner air or else a White Brothers are probably the best available options but are still overweight for a kids bike. See the the suspension vs rigid discussion at;
http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/kids-20inch-mtbs-854596.html

Viable light option to heavy front suspension might be a lightweight 20" BMX fork without front brake, like the 16 pound marin shown in thread; http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/ktm-20-mtb-build-19-6lbs-864959.html

Good new is that the GF frame you have is a great starting point for your kids build.

Your bike likely has a thread-on freewheel, not a cassette. You will need a shimano freewheel remover tool to get it off. Good plan would be to replace the junky threaded hub with a cassette hub, rebuild the wheel around the new hub. Working on bikes definitely takes a few specialty tools and knowledge that is not always obvious but there is plenty of good info out on the net. Shocks are not terribly hard to service.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I replied to your private message but I'll go into more detail here. The hub that came on my son's bike was the freewheel type. I could not swap the cassette on it and I had an XT hub, 8 speed cassette, shifter and derailleur. The hub was 135mm wide. The frame was 130 or 132... Slightly narrower. I did get the hub in but I figured it would be bad for the frame to ride it that way so I had the LBS fool with the axle and the spacers to get it to drop in. I also used Vee brakes since these were not disc hubs. I used old Ringle quick releases that weigh almost nothing. 
I never weighed the bike but it was lighter for sure. Every component I replaced was lighter than the part it replaced. 
Every part adds up.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Oh yeah... I believe the seatpost on those is 27.2


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Wait a second this isn't plug and play. What are we dealing with Windows 95 

Thanks GrayJay and NYrr496 (thanks for the measurements and PM reply; I sent a response) for your help. The fork may just have to wait since I'm looking at hub and build. Is it possible to find a good trigger shifter for this bike and not have to go through this trouble? Gears are good for her the shift is just to hard?

Wow my eyes are wiped from checking out a lot of sweet rides. Thinking I may need to shorten up the stem as she is leaning pretty far forward with this 20" top tube. 

Thanks again guys.

Smkntrls


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

How many gears does it have now and what kind of derailleur? For my daughters 20", she was unable to twist grip shift but did fine when I switched to an old 6-speed indexed thumb shifter (to match 6-speed freewheel). Shifter was sourced used at local bike coop for cheap. 
A new SRAM derailleur will need a SRAM shifter, ratio is different than shimano derailleurs. I dont know if SRAM ever even made 6-speed shifters (if it now has a 6-speed freewheel?) Might be easier to find shifter that is compatible with the current freewheel tooth count by using a shimano derailleur instead of a SRAM.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi GrayJay,

I may have made a mistake when I first bought it years ago and asked the LBS to install a trigger shifter type. It's just to hard to push the big lever on this poorly designed one.

The trigger shifter is a Tourney which the big lever to get to the taller gears is just impossible to push.
It's a Shimano Sora six speed.
The cassette is a Shimano MFT220.

Is there a way to improve this system? I read one place that you can have a higher geared shifter that will just have a dead shift if it doesn't have the matching cogs, true?

Interestingly the rear frame measured 133.3 so I'm now real curious about a normal hub slipping in/forcing it just a bit 

There's what looks like disk tabs on the back of this frame. If I go the point of rebuilding the rear wheel is it possible to go disk? I've read how it's easier on long descents to squeeze the disk brake equipped bike. Kind of like that idea.

Watched that epic 5 part rebuidling thread on you tube and thinking I can manage it. Then set me up to build my own set for my ride down the line...

Thoughts always appreciated,

Smkntrls

Thanks everyone,

Smkntrls


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## stom_m3 (Jun 28, 2011)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Interestingly the rear frame measured 133.3 so I'm now real curious about a normal hub slipping in/forcing it just a bit
> Smkntrls


Manufacturing tolerances. Just pull the rear stays apart when you put the rear wheel in. I had the same issue with my son's Marin Hidden Canyon.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks Stom_m3. Seen a lot of nice bikes over past day. Have you posted your build? Sorry brain's turning to mush looking at all these parts.

Figure forget the rear disk and brake upgrade and focus on drivetrain. Everybody happy with their Paul's Chain Keeper? Seen some posts with the use of an extra front derailer as a stopper.

Curious if anybody uses shimano dual controls for their applications? Looks really big and bulky and maybe harder to use?

Smkntrls


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## stom_m3 (Jun 28, 2011)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Thanks Stom_m3. Seen a lot of nice bikes over past day. Have you posted your build? Sorry brain's turning to mush looking at all these parts.
> 
> Figure forget the rear disk and brake upgrade and focus on drivetrain. Everybody happy with their Paul's Chain Keeper? Seen some posts with the use of an extra front derailer as a stopper.
> 
> ...


Here's my son's 20" build for when he was 6;

http://forums.mtbr.com/families-rid...in-hidden-canyon-20-going-put-xtr-726045.html

Here is my son's 24" build that I just did now that he's 9;

http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/scott-scale-rc-jr-w-mods-weights-883229.html

As for the front chain keeper, a Pauls, or N-Gear Jump stop with a BBG bash ring will work. I did combinations of both on the two different builds.

Let me know if you have any questions.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Thumb shifters are pretty easy for kids to use, for example;
Amazon.com: Shimano SL-TX30 Tourney 6 Speed Shift Levers: Sports & Outdoors

6 speed freewheel (or cassette) needs a 6-speed specific shifter as the cog spacing is different for each # of gears. 7 and 8 speed are close to same spacing but still not exactly the same. See; Shimergo | CTC and/or Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Frame and Cassette Spacing Crib Sheet

Switching to disks brakes with new hubs is a possibility but they also add weight. Well setup V-brakes can be plenty strong and are lighter.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

stom_m3 Awesome build there and love the expressions on your sons face. Well worth the time and money spent. Have to spend a little more time reviewing them and thanks for sharing :thumbsup: Have to check out the fork mod and see how that works out for the bike.

GrayJay Thanks for the links. Yeah I must have the older or crapier version as it's hard for me to move that big thumb one. Pretty much decided go for a complete driveline overhaul for the future years of abuse. V brake overhaul will be next year's presents.

Curious if someone can help me figure out what stem size I have so I can figure out what stem/handlebar combo I can shop for. I again have measurements above but not sure if I did them right. Also I think I want to shorten the reach but not sure what size would be just right. Saw M-dub went with 35 mm with some rise. How's that working out for him? The current one has a rise to it so probably keep the rise. Anyone know what degree rise I probably have? Looking on ebay Trutive looks pretty nice and reasonably priced. Suggestions would be helpful.

Also should I be thinking about a new headset? Is it really necessary?

Thank you,

Smnktrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I have one of those Ebay Truvative stems on my son's current bike. A little heavy but the price is right. 
The Uno stuff on Ebay is pretty light for the price. I think that's who made his handlebars.


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## stom_m3 (Jun 28, 2011)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Curious if someone can help me figure out what stem size I have so I can figure out what stem/handlebar combo I can shop for. I again have measurements above but not sure if I did them right. Also I think I want to shorten the reach but not sure what size would be just right. Saw M-dub went with 35 mm with some rise. How's that working out for him? The current one has a rise to it so probably keep the rise. Anyone know what degree rise I probably have? Looking on ebay Trutive looks pretty nice and reasonably priced. Suggestions would be helpful.
> 
> Also should I be thinking about a new headset? Is it really necessary?
> 
> ...


Stem, crank length, bar width, seat position, seat height are all fitting type components or settings. Kids are a little more generic in fitting because they are growing so fast. Without knowing your daughter's height and reach but assuming a 6 year old with growing potential, I would look for a 60-75mm stem, 0-6 degree rise, 31.8 handlebar clamp. Usually Jenson's, Pricepoint, or Cambria bike have good sales on previous model stems. Find the cheapest lightest option. Same with the Handlebars. Find an inexpensive 31.8 aluminum or even a previous model carbon fiber bar.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

NYrr496 and stom_m3 THANK YOU. My response last night was pretty winey :ciappa: Thanks for putting up with it.

Great Stom_M3 I almost bought the wrong size handlebar. I'm obviously very uniformed on measuring bike components. Love it if someone pointed me to a place where I can become informed. If not I'll look into that next.

So are the fork tubes from different brands/models that the stem attaches to all one general size for all mtb's?

Trying to learn as I hope to build my next bike.

Thanks everyone,

Smkntrls


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## stom_m3 (Jun 28, 2011)

The steerer tube which you refer to as fork tube is measured via diameter.

Here is a short list of some measurement items;
Steerer tube = diameter (typical 1 1/8")
Seat post = diameter x length
Stem = Steerer tube diameter, length (C to C), handlebar diameter (typically 31.8 but older use 1")
Crank length = C to C
Bottom Bracket = thread type (yours should be Euro 68mm) by length of spindle (108-118mm)
Seat tube = diameter (for ordering a chain guide)
Chainring BCD = Diameter (5 bolt = 110bcd, 4 bolt = 104/64bcd)

Of course there are huge variations and standards but the above will be applicable to your bike. 

If you are buying a new fork, you will need to ensure that you purchase a 1 1/8" steerer fork (of course this assumes your stem and headset match accordingly).


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you stom_m3. 

Looking at some of the weight savings comparisons people have made and the stem doesn't seem to be such a big difference so I may just hold off on that.

When you get a second could you please define C to C for me? Is that center of circle to center of circle?

One of my measurements match's up ;-)

Smkntrls


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

First purchase:


EASTON EC70 XC CARBON HANDLEBAR HIGH RISE

Specifications:

Brand: EASTON

Model: EC70 XC

Length: 685mm

Rise: 40mm

Sweep: 5 degree upsweep, 9 degree bend

Clamp Diameter: 31.8mm

Material: UD Matte Carbon

Color: Black

Weight: 159g

Retail Price: $140.00 (not what I paid though)

The sweep makes me think of lowriders but hopefully it's to the kids liking  

Thanks everybody. Keep you posted (pun intended) :thumbsup:

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

SMKNTRLS, I'll take the pics tomorrow and send them out Monday. Sorry, but I can only access my e mail from work or on my blackberry.
The pics will come out better if I take them with the camera and not the bberry.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

NYrr496 no problem my friend and thank you :thumbsup:

I'm kind of waiting for a few things to come through and have moved on to what to do for my older daughter. Probably start a new thread on that one.

What do you guys think about a bash guard for the 20". Just learning about them and like the fact it will protect their legs from the teeth. Along with maybe stopping inadvertent pants/laces from catching? Suggestions on which one with Sinz Cranks and I think I want a Salsa 34T? Need one with five holes 

On that train of thought (if I have one ) for those of you newbies checking out my thread here I found gold! You all owe me  :nono:

Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Glossary Ca--Ce

And pretty obvious guess ha stom_M3 

Thanks everybody!

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

You'll see when I send you the pics, I have the Salsa chainring and bashguard on the Sinz cranks. It works perfect. 
The only other thing I had to add was an N Gear Jumpstop to keep the chain from dropping to the inside.


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## stom_m3 (Jun 28, 2011)

NYrr496 said:


> You'll see when I send you the pics, I have the Salsa chainring and bashguard on the Sinz cranks. It works perfect.
> The only other thing I had to add was an N Gear Jumpstop to keep the chain from dropping to the inside.


Agree with the jump stop. Put it on my son's Scott and it works well which is to say he has yet to drop a chain. He also uses the BBG bash guard. Cheap and effective. I don't know how much the salsa chainring is but it seems like it would be expensive. For reference a MCS or Sinz chainring sells for $15 at JR bicycles and Danscomp.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

15 dollars is cheaper than a Salsa ring.


Plus, I don't think Salsa makes chainrings or bashguards any more. Geniuses.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Wow I created a two page thread :thumbsup: 

Thanks Stom_M3 and NYrr496 for sharing. I just got in from a long day of soccer and tonight it's a cards night with the boys so I'll be going through MTBR withdrawals in about a few hours :yikes: 

Time to type up another thread for another family member . She's the curaitor of this refound passion and one hell of a rider at nine. Charged down a seroius manmade concrete 30' almost vertical drop with a three foot swoopy drop at the end that wasn't even level with her Dad in front screaming get back on your seat as I charged down it before her. Thank God for her safety and for me being smart enough to buy her a real bike with real equipment. Of course she couldn't hear me and of course this was in Mammoth on a side trail. Note to self. Always prerun a trail without the kids along. Or stop at every blind intersection top of a hill. But she pulled it off. Scared her though. Which is a good thing .

Thanks again and look forward to checking out those pics and looking into your guys suggestions :thumbsup:

Enjoy your evening or maybe catch ya in the Giant Forum 

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Quick suggestion on cards night... Make it on Friday. Makes the weekend feel longer and doesn't mess up your Sunday morning group ride.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

:lol::lol::lol:

Friday night was last weekend :thumbsup: Lucky guys or ladies 

Totally agree. I definitely need the extra recovery time as these guys just can't get enough. I enjoy the comrodery more than anything else. Hopefully I can get out with some change in my pocket so I can feel better about my shopping spree here :thumbsup:

Can't wait to join a Sunday morning group. Tough with kids and trying to keep them active. But fortunately I've got a built in group with rides as nice or soon to be nicer than mine :thumbsup:

Thanks for your help and enjoy your ride tomorrow if you get out :thumbsup:


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Help...

I've got a lot of cool stuff on the floor next to me/on order and I'm stuck trying to figure out what hubs I should be buying. Obviously I'm looking budget in the low 30's for each but everything I'm reading so much stuff is unreliable on the back end. Certainly don't need disk compatibility but durability is a must. Hate to spend all this time building two new wheels and have to tear them apart in six months. Should I buy some old school used ones? Not going to bode well with the wife if this build starts to take a negative turn :madmax: . Be better to bight the bullet on better grade stuff vs dealing with well xxx. But the XT stuff reads like a horror story :madman: :madman:

So I would love to know what you guys think. Should I just get a deore front and a sram rear?

Also GrayJay, NYrr496 and stom_m3 love to get your thoughts on lightweight spokes. There's no way the wife will be happy if she sees holes where she thinks spokes should be so I'm thinking supper light all around.

Can't wait to post some pics and get this works PC   on the dirt :thumbsup:

Thanks guys,

Smkntrls


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

SMKNTRLS - Sounds like you need to take your pants back, start by telling your wife to stay out of the bike garage and get back in the kitchen! 

Durability of the hubs will not be a big concern for a kid rider, even the lightest hubs you can buy will be plenty strong for the amount of abuse and wear that a 50 pound kid can dish out. Are you planning on threaded freewheel or a cassette hub? 

Butted spokes in appropriate lengths for a 20" wheel are going to be tricky to find (if they even exist) try calling dans comp BMX store. Most likely you will just need to use plain 14 gauge spokes that have be cut and threaded to the correct length needed. Lack of suitably lightweight rims and spokes for 20" wheels really only leaves you with option of reducing the # of spokes if you want to lower weight of the wheel a bit.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Shimano HB M737 Rear Hub Parallax Deore XT Used | eBay

This hub listed above is what's on my son's GF. If you don't win that one, my all time favorite Shimano low cost indestructable hub is the M529. Costs about 45 bucks for the rear. 
I could be wrong but I believe I laced those wheels up with DT Swiss Comps. Use alloy nipples which will let you add color as well. If you set up tubeless you save a little weight as well.


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## stom_m3 (Jun 28, 2011)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Help...
> 
> I've got a lot of cool stuff on the floor next to me/on order and I'm stuck trying to figure out what hubs I should be buying. Obviously I'm looking budget in the low 30's for each but everything I'm reading so much stuff is unreliable on the back end. Certainly don't need disk compatibility but durability is a must. Hate to spend all this time building two new wheels and have to tear them apart in six months. Should I buy some old school used ones? Not going to bode well with the wife if this build starts to take a negative turn :madmax: . Be better to bight the bullet on better grade stuff vs dealing with well xxx. But the XT stuff reads like a horror story :madman: :madman:
> 
> ...


I don't know of the horror stories that you are talking about but I haven't had an issue with my son's XT hubs. Also, remember that your kid will be pedaling the bike and not some clydesdale power house. Here are the parts and prices of my son's wheel build;

Hubs F/R: Shimano XT M775 ($47.68, $65.88 @ amazon)
Rims: Sun Envy Lite ($37.99 @ Dan's Comp)
Spokes: Sapin Dbl Bttd ($36/wheelset @ Dan's Comp)
Nipples: Alloy gold ($22/wheelset @ Dan's Comp)

I drop shipped the Hubs straight to Dan's Comp and they built them up. Give them a heads up that the hubs are coming and it was no big deal. If you buy everything from them, they lace for free. Unfortunately they don't carry mtn bike hubs or at least the last I checked. They charged me $10/wheelset to lace. Cheap enough where I wasn't planning on doing it myself. At $250/wheelset, that's pretty cheap. Looking back, I should have tried skip lacing with only 18 spokes or some other variation. The wheel is pretty stout. The total weight F/R was (739/906) Using half the spokes would have dropped another 140g.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Good morning everyone,

GrayJay thanks for the laugh  Depended on the hubs I was able to get.

NYrr496 Thanks for the extra time in looking. Love it if you'd eliminate your info. Got it saved...

stom_m3 Looks familiar and awesome. Looks like I'm going to be lacing. Have to contact them for the additional stuff. Went through BMXhub for the SRgls.

Have to run but wanted to say quick thanks!

Smkntrls


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hello Gentle people. 

My mind is now mush. Can anyone help me determine if any of these Shimano rear hubs can accomidate 8 /9 /10 gears. Be it spline or threaded. Don't really care either way just would like to move past this point. And the toughest point is finding a seven speed quality shifters/derailleurs for some of these.

I'm assuming anything with a shorter length than 130 mm is not going to fit either. Or will a spacer do the job with a longer QR?

If they all can take a cassette described above your suggested best to worst or top two and gravy would be a suggested cassette:

Deore LX FH-M563 
FH M-732
FH-MC12 
ACERA X PARALLAX 
FH-M 452

Thanks for your help in advance. 

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

On the 24" bike (the blue one in the pics I sent you), I used a Deore hub. I have a ten speed cassette on it. I suggest sticking to 8 on the 20". The chainstays are so short you won't have a good chainline at one end of the cassette. 
On the 24, it was VERY difficult to get the last small cog on the outside. I finally tapped out and made it work well in nine gears and locked the last one out. My son can't even tell.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi NYrr496,

Thanks for hanging in there with me :thumbsup:

My concern is reading about some of these hubs they say you can't get anything past this type of cassette, ie. 7 speed. Maybe that was more of a threaded set. But I couldn't tell if a spline just in general can take any number of geared cassette. 

So if I find a spline hub should it be able to accommodate 8 or 9 spline cassette?

Then any spline cassette should be able to fit on any spline hub. Doesn't matter which manufacturer?

Thank you very much,

Smkntrls

BTW $60 for your 24 what a crackin deal :thumbsup:. Pretty much decided I'm going to sticker up the Cypher and leave it in one piece until I build up my own bike. Let me be the true ginny pig.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Sram or Shimano will fit on a splined Shimano hub.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi NYrr496,

I just read why you had to remove the inner sprocket.

I can't believe how much time this is taking.

Thank you,

Smkntrls


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Smk-
See the explanation of freewheel vs casette hubs at; 
Freewheel or Cassette?

SRAM and Shimano splines and spacing are cross-compatable, (campagnolo is not). 
95% of cassette hubs are built to work with any of 8, 9 or 10 speed cassette (all same width). Tere is new road 11 speed that is different but not needed for a kids bike. The oldest (and some more recent low end) cassette freehub bodies were 7-speed only and were 5mm narrower. (or can be used with 8 of 9 cogs of a 9-speed cassette). 7-speed works fine for a kid bike, a 20" wheel rider is unlikely to use all the cogs anyway as their speed range is fairly narrow with low power and low skill level. My daughter would start braking anytime she was on a downhill that would have needed anything more than about a 34x18 gear to go any faster.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi GrayJay,

Yep that's where I found out about why NYrr496 removed the one sprocket so this would work on his 24".

So it seems if I go with a older Shimano FH with a 9 speed cassette and 9 speed derailer/shifter I should have 8 speeds.

Does the locking nut normally come with the cassette and will I need some tool to remove the locking nut and related first sprocket (which means a little less top speed but that's OK).

Thank you,

Smkntrls


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Ok forget my question about tools to install/remove a cassette as I finally figured out the picture and that it isn't two different sprockets (one with a nut to hold it onto the frame; which I saw a couple of rear hubs that way last night). So I'm curious if someone has a good general tool kit they could refer. Obviously will need it and maybe a good sprocket key. I'll try and build and true the wheel on the bike I think...

Will definately need assistance on spoke length...

Looks like you guys are here hard at work. Or laughing. One or the other 

Thanks and keep those thoughts coming...

Smkntrls


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi Guys,

I'm thinking I can't use my current chain as it will be to short.

If I create a 8 speed system with a 9 spd medium cage rear derailleur do I get an 8 or 9 speed chain?

Also I'll need some new cables too.

Thank you,

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

No... I didn't remove a cog. I locked it out via the derailleur. The spacing on the cogs relates directly to the amount of cable movement controlled by the shifter. So... If you have a 9 speed cog, you need a 9 speed shifter and derailleur. 8 speed needs all 8 speed parts and so on. 
Also, the chains are different widths, not lengths. An 8 speed chain is wider than a 9 speed chain and a 9 speed chain is wider than a 10 speed chain.
Since more gears are crammed into the same given space on the hub's spline, the cogs get closer together and the chains get narrower. You'll get it.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks for letting me know that NYrr496. That all makes sense.

Smkntrls


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

NYrr496 said:


> No... I didn't remove a cog. I locked it out via the derailleur. The spacing on the cogs relates directly to the amount of cable movement controlled by the shifter. So... If you have a 9 speed cog, you need a 9 speed shifter and derailleur. 8 speed needs all 8 speed parts and so on.
> Also, the chains are different widths, not lengths. An 8 speed chain is wider than a 9 speed chain and a 9 speed chain is wider than a 10 speed chain.
> Since more gears are crammed into the same given space on the hub's spline, the cogs get closer together and the chains get narrower. You'll get it.


One clarification, same rear derailleur can be used for 6-7-8-9-10 speed so long as it is matched to correct shifter, no need to get different RD specific to # of speeds.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

GrayJay said:


> One clarification, same rear derailleur can be used for 6-7-8-9-10 speed so long as it is matched to correct shifter, no need to get different RD specific to # of speeds.


I believe 8 and 9 is interchangeable. Ten is not. Not sure about 6 and 7.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks guys. I'm just shooting for a nine speed then I can at least transfer everything to a 24" or 26" after the baby rolls on it and grows out of it. Hope you guys are out enjoying an epic ride!

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Just got back from a long hike with my son and our Collie. I'll be going for a night ride tonight.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi NYrr496,

Sounds like a fun afternoon/evening. Was able to get out with a local MTBR member on a beautiful afternoon yesterday . Had a great time with a 5 mile climb and lots of fun single track on the way down. Loads of fun! Hope you enjoyed your ride as it sounds like winter maybe coming down the line and you may have to get that fat tire bike out ;-)

Got my rims and ordered up some more new parts.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone,

Smkntrls


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Curious folks. I read in a past thread the following:

"The FMF crank can't run a bash. I milled it a bit with a dremel so I could put a BBG bash on. It's not very pretty but it works fine.

If I had to do it again, I would use a Sinz, which can be run double sided."

I'm curious about this double sided bash ring that may fit the sinz crank I got. Anyone can point it out as I've read how the jump stop gets loose during the rough stuff and I'd hate for that to happen. Was thinking about even just getting a cheap FD. Thoughts?

Additionally I'm assuming if I want to add a bash guard or even a double sided one I'll need the long 8mm chain ring bolts. Confirmation would be great.
....

Also I read that if you don't buy the right sized ring it might be to wide for the nine speed chain/drivetrain I'm planning on buying. I'm planning on buying a low cost 34 ring to go along with a SRAM Chain 1/2x3/32 PC951-9s Gray w/Power Link. 

I found this on JR (thanks stom_m3) and think it will fit as I think the above 1/2x3/32 means it will accept this chain fit of 3/32" below.

SPECS:
MATERIAL: U.S.A. Made 6000 Series Aluminum and CNC machined teeth
FIT: 5-Bolt bolt pattern for 110mm spiders
CHAIN FIT: 3/32"
BOLT REQUIREMENT: Typically uses standard (or short) chain ring bolts. Some crank spiders require long bolts
CRANK REQUIREMENT: Any crank with 5-Bolt spider or that can be adapted with a 5-bolt spider

Weight: 3.0oz/85g (42T)

Confirmation would be greatly appreciated.
...

Also how lame would I be to scratch off all the pc on these cranks/bash rings and rustoleum them? I'm thinking it would be easier to peal the rustoleum off when I want to change the color to boys colors when it's past on? Even worse how lame would I be to just spray paint over the aluminum/gray color of all these parts I've got like hubs, shifters and deraileurs? Will it work? The paint only has to last three years and I figure it'll be easy to touch things up with a fresh layer of paint :nono:

Thanks everyone for the help. Can't wait to start the build...

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

The Jumpstop needs time to stretch. It's plastic. It may loosen up once but adjust it and that's that. 
I used Salsa chainrings and bash guard with the 8mm bolts. Yes, you need the long bolts to run a bash. 
I've used Rustoleum Hard Hat paint on LOTS of things. The trick is to get the part prepared correctly. I have access to a glass beader but Scotchbrite will suffice on smooth surfaces. Also, clean with something to be sure the surface is oil free. 
It even helps to let the paint set up in the sun.


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## stom_m3 (Jun 28, 2011)

SMKNTRLS said:


> I'm curious about this double sided bash ring that may fit the sinz crank I got. Anyone can point it out as I've read how the jump stop gets loose during the rough stuff and I'd hate for that to happen. Was thinking about even just getting a cheap FD. Thoughts?
> 
> Additionally I'm assuming if I want to add a bash guard or even a double sided one I'll need the long 8mm chain ring bolts. Confirmation would be great.
> ....
> ...


If you run a double bash ring, you'll need to run spacers to space one of the bash rings off the Chainring. I personally would just run the single bash guard with Jump Stop. Chainring bolts have a tendancy to loosen and need to be checked every so often regardless. I would just use that time to also check the jump stop (though I don't).

As for the chainring thickness. I use the Sinz/MCS on my son's 10spd chain without issues.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Cool guys. Thanks for chiming in.

I'll get the jump stop and roll with it. 

Are chainring bolts pretty standard or should I be concerned about different types?

Also do you guys use blue loctite with any of this or just anti seize and check tensions. BTW is there a certain Lbs or nms you tighten to for various parts?

Going to hit the Pivot Demo this weekend and try out the Mach 6 and 429C hopefully. So many cool bikes to try out. Next year hopefully Daddy will get a new or used christmas present.

Thanks again,

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Blue Loctite is fine on chainring bolts.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi Guys,

So I've got my rims and the hubs hopefully will be here next week. I was going to try and order up the following spokes.

PWB PINK 14 GAUGE SPOKES - prowheelbuilder.com

The bike is white, purple and grey and I thought about trying to paint up the bash and sinz cranks pink and thought these would make for a pretty sick looking ride with the black rims. Thoughts on powder coated spokes, like too much weight? Can't seem to find anodized pink spokes. Or should I just get white. Still would look nice with the mostly white frame?

Their weight is:
7.75 grams which I can't figure if that's good or not?

Figuring out spoke lengths is proving a little tricky and I'm thinking I need to wait until I get the rear hub in to measure as I found conflicting info from two different Shimano on line publications. I took the measurements that were closest to the M-760 as it looks similar to the M525 in the picture and plugged it all into Rinard's page. Here's the links to the product description pages and my calcs below.

Appreciate if anyone could confirm what I've got and if I'm on the right track? Certainly would like to get these spokes measured up ASAP but again I think I may have to wait to confirm the FH.

Sun Envy Light 20" Rims:

Envy Lite | SUNringlé

Shimano Deore hubs:

Shimano specific info on Hub Rear FH-M525 Deore 36H Sil Disc (used this for my calcs as it seemed closer to the M-760 specs on general sheet):

http://www.shimano.com/publish/conte..._mountain.html

General Sheet for FH and Shimano Hub Front HB-M525 Deore 36H Sil Disc FB:

http://www.shimano.com/publish/conte...ub Specs.pdf

Numbers are as followed since I don't know how to attach Ricard's spreadsheet result (again went off of the Fh spec sheet since it kind of looks similar to the FH-M760 on the general sheet):

Front Wheel:
N: 36
ERD: 391
OSB: 0 ?
WL:31.7
WR: 21.1
dL: 61
dR: 61
S: 2.6 (similar to all Deore line on hub tab)
x: 3

Rear Wheel:
N: 36
ERD: 391
OSB: 0
WL:35.4
WR: 21.8
dL: 61
dR: 61
S: 2.6
x:3

Output Data:
cross 3:
Front:
Left Length: 183.6
Right: 182.1

Rear:
Left Length: 184.3
Right: 182.2

So I'd need?:

36 - 184
36 - 182

Thank you,

Smkntrls


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

So since no replies I'll just wait to measure both hubs.

Any thoughts on these powder coated spokes? 

PWB PINK 14 GAUGE SPOKES - prowheelbuilder.com

Nice thing is when I transfer this over to a boys bike I can just remove the PC. I can't assume it's going to be that much more weight or am I wrong?

Or this supplier?

BTW the Pivot guys were awesome and got a chance to ride the Mach 6, 429C and Firebird. Sure like all that cushiness of the Firebird but the other two are very interesting. Have to try them all out some more...

Thanks in advance,

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm sure the powder coated spokes are fine. I've never used em. I use black spokes and colored nipples. Found pink ones at unicycle.com. 

Wait til you get the hubs and measure them. I've had bad luck with the specs on the online calculators.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

NYrr496 many Thanks! Admin not sure how peoples reputation gets improved but put a + in this mans score 4 me.

BTW enjoyed another ride on a 429C this morning. Wow what a bike. Really liked how it rolled over big nasty rocks that had my heart pounding when I first came upon them in this stream bed, nice suprise. Handled great. Great job Chris. Can't wait to compare. Rip 9 looks to be next  but it's got a lot to measure up against


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Productive day today. Sanded down the Sinz cranks and put on two coats of primer (sanded inbetween too) with just one drop/run and just almost got all the cranks completely removed. Well I'm stuck with the drive side cup (I think that's what it's called) refusing to budge. I'm assuming this is a righty tighty lefty loosy scenario as it's the right hand side. (BTW for future reference anyone with this bike the left crank is not a reverse thread.) Didn't seem to make much of a difference when I tried the other direction.

So I'm wondering if I'm just SOL taking this cup off with my crescent wrench as it's just not enough surface face to keep my wrench from jumping off when I'm trying to hammer on it. I'm assuming these guys didn't bother with anti seize :madman:

Any suggestions would be helpful and maybe I just need to go to a shop and pay them to pull it out? Cost associated?

This is great fun so appreciate all the help so far. Can't wait for the end result :thumbsup:

Smnktrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I tried to answer your e mail about this but for some reason it kept coming back undeliverable. 
I had to remove a cup like that once for a friend with a bike shop. I welded a really big nut, like 3/4" to the cup. While it was hot, I grabbed the nut with a 1 1/16 box wrench and was able to turn it out. Also, the heat from welding helped. They would have never done that in the bike shop. Know anyone with a welder?


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Productive day today. Sanded down the Sinz cranks and put on two coats of primer (sanded inbetween too) with just one drop/run and just almost got all the cranks completely removed. Well I'm stuck with the drive side cup (I think that's what it's called) refusing to budge. I'm assuming this is a righty tighty lefty loosy scenario as it's the right hand side. (BTW for future reference anyone with this bike the left crank is not a reverse thread.) Didn't seem to make much of a difference when I tried the other direction.
> 
> So I'm wondering if I'm just SOL taking this cup off with my crescent wrench as it's just not enough surface face to keep my wrench from jumping off when I'm trying to hammer on it. I'm assuming these guys didn't bother with anti seize :madman:
> 
> ...


The drive side is reverse thread I believe.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi NYrr496 and xc71,

Paid the cell but not the home phone with internet. Thanks for trying NYrr496. Great suggestion and no.

Just read xc71 that it could be reversed threaded. I'm going to go give it a shot right now.

See what I can come up with guys. Thanks...

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

It is reverse threaded.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

OK going back for round three with a new left hook; Ding! Ding!


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Ok. Ding dong here ;-)

So note to newbies. Left side pedal and crank are not the only things to worry about the reverse thread. 

It was happy to give up and come off after the beating it took :madman:

There's a little bit of paint that's come off from putting on the wrench. Should I hit it with primer since it's an area prone to water build up?

Also as I mentioned above is it a good idea to use antiseize when installing the isis bb?

Thanks everybody!

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Couldn't hurt.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi Guys,

Curious and I'm sorry I'm on a schedule here so am running out of research time and I've still got to build some wheels and work over another bike so I'd be interested in knowing what size you guys think I should be cutting down these bars to? Should I use the standard length or I was thinking maybe in six years transferring this over to a 24" or maybe even a 26". So with that in mind your feedback greatly appreciated, Smkntrls

EASTON EC70 XC CARBON HANDLEBAR HIGH RISE


Brand: EASTON

Model: EC70 XC

Length: 685mm

Rise: 40mm

Sweep: 5 degree upsweep, 9 degree bend

Clamp Diameter: 31.8mm


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi guys...

So mdub went 22" on his bars,
someone else cutoff 1.5" from each side,
stom_m3 and NYrr496 did you guys cut down?

Thanks...


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

I went 25". Glad I didn't go any shorter for fast rough downhilling.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

The bars on the 24" bike are 25". I don't remember if I cut them or they came that way.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks guys. Starting wheel building now. GrayJay I see your on right now. Link to a good 36 hole build on you tube you like would be perfect. Bunch of them out there but here we go!


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Thanks guys. Starting wheel building now. GrayJay I see your on right now. Link to a good 36 hole build on you tube you like would be perfect. Bunch of them out there but here we go!


Ha! I started building wheels before the internet, just had the Jobst Brant wheelbuilding hardcover book to go by then. Once you have built a few wheels, no need to check youtube tutorials.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Love it GrayJay :thumbsup:

So far working through this one. Wondering if you think this 3 cross is going to lead me to a trap?

Without the bullshit. How to build a 36 spoke wheel. - YouTube

Sure scared me when all the first side spokes were in. Way too long :eekster:


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

2 wheels built


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Sweet


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Daughter jumped in the air screaming in excitement! So glad got that on video ;-)

One small hickup so far as I don't seem to have long enough chain ring bolts. I've got the BBG, MCS 34 plus sinz cranks.

I got these 8mm bolts:

Purple Single Speed Chainring Bolts 8mm 5 Set BMX Track Fixed Gear Bike | eBay

Can I buy a longer backing so I can keep the purple head? It perfectly matches the paint job I did on the whole assembly. Or maybe pink or silver.

Did some researching and seems longest is 8mm. Hmm


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Daughter jumped in the air screaming in excitement! So glad got that on video ;-)
> 
> One small hickup so far as I don't seem to have long enough chain ring bolts. I've got the BBG, MCS 34 plus sinz cranks.
> 
> ...


Tom has Aerozine in pink, and also has MTB double in purple.
KCNC Chainring Bolts, Titanium Crank Bolts, KCNC, Aerozine


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks xc71 for chiming in with the right keywords. Extra long chain ring bolts. Should do more shopping on bike store pages but mtbr and fleebay have made things a little simpler with this pressed for time Dad 

Thank you,

Smkntrls


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Curious folks. Have the front fork out.

Cleaned the bottom and top bearings and am packing with bel ray waterproof grease.

It looks like there maybe some anti seize in these upper assembly cups (like three of them). I'm thinking about leaving those with whatever grease is on them. Is this OK.

Or should I just clean it all up and use the Bel Ray on it all?

Secondly I'm curious the top tube had/has a light coat of grease where the stem was attached. I'm wondering should I have a little bit of Bel Ray there to for some reason. I'd think you'd want that dry to avoid slippage.

Putting back together this evening so any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Smkntrls


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Grease is fine on everything. Don't put grease on the steerer under the stem.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Cleaned up and greased up and turning smooth :thumbsup:

Curious should I be putting grease on the QRs?

Cut the bars to 25 and need to learn how to post some pics...

Off to the happiest place on earth 

Thanks again NYrr496. Hope you are enjoying some good fat tire ridin :thumbsup: Saw one riding by in Mammoth a couple days ago. Them some big tires 

Smkntrls


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## stom_m3 (Jun 28, 2011)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Cleaned up and greased up and turning smooth :thumbsup:
> 
> Curious should I be putting grease on the QRs?
> 
> ...


Here's a late response; I cut my son's bars down to 23". You will have to gauge how much control your son has on the bike and cut them down accordingly. 25" still seems a little truckish for a kid but if it works for him, great. The other way you can adjust the size is with grip size. You can buy adult grips which will allow his hands to move in a little bit more. I bought my son the Sinz Expert grips which are a little shorter which moves his hands out a little more.

As for posting pics, I use photobucket. You can use any picture hosting site and past the IMG URL. It's pretty easy once you give it a try.


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## CJH (Apr 21, 2004)

SMKNTRLS said:


> She's riding her sister's old GF Precaliber and will be for at least three more years and this bike could be potentially be moved onto my 3 year old son with a new paint job too.


I found a GF Precaliber 20 for sale. It's a bit of a drive away so I can't just hop in the car and go check it out. Have a couple of questions, if you don't mind.

Did you happen to weigh the bare frame when you had it taken apart?

Also, do you know or could you measure the horizontal top tube length? I found some comments online that it was one of the "longer" or "more stretched out" 20" kids bikes and I'm curious to know if this is really the case.

How is the project coming?


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

See jordans precaliber thread too;
http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/20-custom-build-project-876592.html

There he list bare frame weight (stripped of paint) as 2 lbs, 15 oz (around 1330gr). Probably one of the lightest 20" kid MTB frames that were made.


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## CJH (Apr 21, 2004)

GrayJay said:


> See jordans precaliber thread too;
> http://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/20-custom-build-project-876592.html
> 
> There he list bare frame weight (stripped of paint) as 2 lbs, 15 oz (around 1330gr). Probably one of the lightest 20" kid MTB frames that were made.


Thanks. When I found it for sale I thought of that thread and had that number in my head but then it didn't turn up in my search. I thought I had remembered incorrectly.

To the OP, never mind on the weight. If you have a horizontal/effective top tube measurement please post back.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Good morning everyone,

I am happy to say that the Eagle has landed!

Thank you to everyone including NYrr496, stom_m3, XC71, GrayJay and everyone else here that has posted their insight to this thread on similar threads. Along with those mentioned I'd like to extend a big thank to a new friend JeffJ (who if your local to Santa Clarita Valley and need some good help with your bike is very good) for helping me measure up my hubs for spokes and also for helping me adjust the dreaileur/shifter (which is using all nine speeds).

So sorry to say I didn't weigh out the frame by itself as my daughters/son and I worked together on this (which I video taped all of it) tearing things apart / replacing with new items one at a time so to limit my chance of messing things up. But I did take pics of the weights of different items so if there's something your interested let me know.

Upgrades of new and used parts include:

Envy light wheels with pink spokes
Deore Disk hubs
Easton Carbon Bar
Lizard Skinz Lock on Bearclaw Grips
Syncrhos stem
X5 thumb shifter
X9 RD
XT cassette
Sram Chain
Sinz Cranks
Sinz BB
BBG Bashguard (had them send me it in Raw so I could paint it) Thanks guys!
Jump Stop
MCS 34t Chainring
Jag wire cables

I have cut the bars to 24" and may bring them down further but as DT has mentioned the new longish top tubes (like this GF design which BTW effective top tube length if I measured correctly is just a tad under 19") and shorter stem and wider bar is the current new wave. So seeing how this all pans out. So far OK.

So thank you all again :thumbsup: and the moment you all have been waiting.....

Pics...


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Nice! Glad it worked out.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

NYrr496 Thank you so much; your support has been invaluable :thumbsup:

I'm really struggling with it right now as I just can't see stripping this beut and changing it's color for my younger son. But I've got a few years to figure that one out 

It sounds like your getting more than you bargained for in that fluffy white stuff. If you ever need any advice on how to turn that fat tire into a single plank of wood for alternative mountain riding let me know


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Thanks... I ski. It's just that I can bike whenever I feel like it. No ski slopes on Long Island.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

NYrr496 said:


> Thanks... I ski. It's just that I can bike whenever I feel like it. No ski slopes on Long Island.


Well were going to be experiencing what the DWP is calling/hyping up a "Mega Drought" and Mammoth and Tahoe are basically dry. So with all that stuff moving eastward sounds like you are going to enjoying the best of both worlds for a while 

While on the other hand good timing on this build for us 

Also everyone hope you've chimed into see what your assistance has created. Thank you very, very much again and if anyone has any questions I'll do my best to answer. Happy New Year everyone. Already working on the next project so happy trails... Smkntrls


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

To the OP, never mind on the weight. If you have a horizontal/effective top tube measurement please post back.[/QUOTE]

Hi CJH,

Hope you saw my mention in the final post up about the length effective top tube being about 19 inches. That's from the middle of where the seat tube slides in and the steerer tube (horizontally measured). Hope that's the right way to measure and helps.

Smkntrls

PS.. Get the bike. It kicks xxx. Two daughters so far not boys are loving every minute of it and this bike has been ridden a lot with no complaints whatsoever. Shorten up the stem if your concerned for like $15. So far so good and plan on keeping it for at least another six years.


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## CJH (Apr 21, 2004)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Hi CJH,
> 
> Hope you saw my mention in the final post up about the length effective top tube being about 19 inches. That's from the middle of where the seat tube slides in and the steerer tube (horizontally measured). Hope that's the right way to measure and helps.


Thanks, think I missed it.

Horizon TT should be from the center of the seat post to the center of the top of the head tube. Since with many kids bikes the seat is lower than the bars you either have to raise the post or measure to an imaginary line, so to speak, of where the seat post would intersect that horizontal line.

Still, I suspect you're saying the same thing. If you got 19" then it does seem like the Precalibers run a bit longer, just as some old posts suggested.

Thanks again.


----------



## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Your welcome.

Yes that is the measurement (sorry for not knowing the right terms). I'm not one to suggest one's better than the other but the length of torso and arm plays into this too. Which my kids have in spades that's why I'm keeping the bar length a little wider and experimenting. Additionally this design is I believe coming off of the GF Genesis design which is what revolutionized the MTBK industry all so long ago. Please correct me I don't mind and again that's why I through a shorter stem on it and kept a high riser bar.

Happy trails,

Smkntrls


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## CJH (Apr 21, 2004)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Your welcome.
> 
> Yes that is the measurement (sorry for not knowing the right terms). I'm not one to suggest one's better than the other but the length of torso and arm plays into this too. Which my kids have in spades that's why I'm keeping the bar length a little wider and experimenting. Additionally this design is I believe coming off of the GF Genesis design which is what revolutionized the MTBK industry all so long ago. Please correct me I don't mind and again that's why I through a shorter stem on it and kept a high riser bar.
> 
> ...


I've always said that when one sits on the floor with the their back tight to the wall, arms stretched comfortably above their heads, that the measurement from the floor to the tip of their fingers is the most important measurement for bike fit.

This focuses more on what leads to comfortable bike fit, IMO. It takes leg length, neck length and I guess even head size to a certain extent out of the equation. On that same token, the measurement I mentioned should probably only be to the palm of ones hands, not to fingertips.

But I digress, my boys also have long torsos relative to leg length and I'm find bike fit very difficult for them.

And based on Gary Fisher's design philosophy, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't trickle down to kids bikes as well.

On that note, have you compared the standover height to other 20" kids bikes? Top tube slops so maybe the first few inches in front of the nose of the saddle?

I think I need to jump on the Precaliber I found for sale.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

CJH said:


> I've always said that when one sits on the floor with the their back tight to the wall, arms stretched comfortably above their heads, that the measurement from the floor to the tip of their fingers is the most important measurement for bike fit.
> 
> This focuses more on what leads to comfortable bike fit, IMO. It takes leg length, neck length and I guess even head size to a certain extent out of the equation. On that same token, the measurement I mentioned should probably only be to the palm of ones hands, not to fingertips.
> 
> ...


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## CJH (Apr 21, 2004)

SMKNTRLS said:


> *** Please explain how I would integrate this measurement as I'll try to include it into my future bike choices.


Well unfortunately I'm one of few saying it so there really isn't a way to objectively use it for bike fit. But it explains while I fit comfortably on most large MTB's while a friend of mine who is much taller can fit on mediums. His height is all in his legs, mine is all in my torso. To the point that my torso plus arm length is longer than his.

I'm not all that worried about the standover issue. It's nearly impossible to measure consistently and bikes need to be compared in real life. My boys are always going to have standover issues with bikes, just like their mom and dad. The Precalibur looks relatively low so I'm willing to give it a shot.


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

Hey guys trying to save the black on the side or my wheels I found a bb7 for a great deal to put on the rear. But the 160 mm is too big as it's hitting the frame. Any suggestions on if a smaller rotor will work or is there another rear disk brake I should pick up.

Thank you...

Smkntrls


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

SMKNTRLS said:


> Hey guys trying to save the black on the side or my wheels I found a bb7 for a great deal to put on the rear. But the 160 mm is too big as it's hitting the frame. Any suggestions on if a smaller rotor will work or is there another rear disk brake I should pick up.
> 
> Thank you...
> 
> Smkntrls


Rotors come in 140mm size too, pretty common for a rear wheel. One thing to keep in mind for buying kids bike brake rotors (or even selecting to use a disk brake on a kids bike), is that if you have lightweight rotors with big cutout holes, if the kid sticks a finger into the spinning rotor (playing with bike while cleaning/fixing), the rotor can amputate fingers! Much safer for a kid to use heavy solid rotors instead of those with cutouts or play it safe, use rim brakes and also save some weight!

http://forums.mtbr.com/downhill-freeride/alcohol-disc-brakes-=-finger-amputation-75484.html


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## SMKNTRLS (Sep 8, 2011)

GrayJay much appreciated. Maybe I shouldn't be so concerned about keeping the color on the rim. I just took a look at the rotor and understand the large triangle cutouts are the concern. I've been extremely diligent in talking to all my children about keeping their hands away from the wheels, sprockets, etc. as we've been working around the bike in my office for those few weeks. Don't want to click that link and don't even want to think about it. Thanks for the reminder. 

Curious if I can repaint the sides of the wheels when they lose the color?

Thank you,

Smkntrls

Wow 102 posts :thumbsup:


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## neverdnf (Feb 19, 2008)

Does anyone have a link to a cheap bottom bracket that would fit a 20" Precaliber single speed. I'm a newb when it comes to this. I'd like to be able to use the stock cranks. So, I'm assuming any 68mm euro thread will work? Any recommendations?


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