# TrailMaker #2 - The Kroozer



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

-


----------



## SlowSSer (Dec 19, 2003)

stepping out of lurk mode to say incredible! nicely done!


----------



## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)




----------



## Peter E (Feb 16, 2004)

frame #2 ? really?

Well done!!!

really like how you joined the chain and seat stays to the dropouts


----------



## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

Sick. Just plain sick.


----------



## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

*** jaw -> floor ***


----------



## sonic reducer (Apr 12, 2010)

concept A+
details A+
craftsmanship A+

nicest 2nd frame ever?

fat bike? geometry?


----------



## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Very nice. From the back end and the BB shell I think it will be fat bike. What color will she be?


----------



## TroyS600 (Mar 29, 2007)

Gotta be fat, i saw a 45nrth tire leaning on the wall.

The stays to dropouts are absolutely gorgeous! It must have taken some time but it was worth it!


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

DAM Trail can't wait to see it fatted out, are you making the fork? Supernice!!:thumbsup:


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Niiiice!*

Kick butt! Tell us about the geometry!

Walt


----------



## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Unreal dude. Second frame? Really? Absolutely stunning!

I'm sick about the stay-to-dropout transition. How the hell'd you do that???


----------



## Stockli Boy (Feb 3, 2012)

gorgeous. Nice work.


----------



## wyatt79m (Mar 3, 2007)

Holy Crap !!! Want.


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Wow 

Ok, elaborate on the drop out joinery. TIG'd and filed?

Needs a truss fork (no **** my phone's predictive text knew that's what I was going to say) 

Spill it on the geo #'s. I'm pleasantly surprised a how nice my new Fatty handles, so it's possible to get away from self steer / wheel flop handling.


----------



## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

Very nice finish work.

-Joel


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Joinery was mitered, plated (SS's), TIG'ed, and filed, and filed... and filed, and sanded too.

This was my first time rolling tubing. I learned where to put cable stays, I hope. I learned to be patient enough to remember vent holes. Now I am going to learn about Powder CoatING and CoatERS. I am going to learn about holing rims and building wheels, which I have never done. I'm quite hopefully going to learn that I got this one _righter_ than the first one!

Thank you all very much for your kind words. I feel the same way!

Stay tuned.....


----------



## FTMN (May 10, 2010)

Gorgeous...

Maybe I'm missing it, but what's the HT angle?

How did the actual geometry turn out compared to the plans?


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

FTMN said:


> Gorgeous...
> 
> Maybe I'm missing it, but what's the HT angle? How did the actual geometry turn out compared to the plans?


No;

You didn't miss it. It disappeared from my drawing somehow. 70*. All I can say right now is that the HT/ST relationship is spot on. I'm almost afraid to find out the rest....


----------



## Peter E (Feb 16, 2004)

got any photos of the build process of the stays to dropout joints?


----------



## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

Sweet!

I just hope that your legs do not scrap against the forward seat stays.....2 tone?


----------



## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

Wow. That is beautiful work and a great looking frame.


----------



## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

Fantastic, I love the stays to dropouts. Any more pics of that specific process? B


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

MDEnvEngr said:


> Fantastic, I love the stays to dropouts. Any more pics of that specific process? B


Hey;

I did not take any specific pics of that process. All I can do is describe it.

Where the CS-to-DO joinery was concerned, I placed the DOs on my dummy axle and in my axle fixturing tower on my CS mitering jig.










I place the forward tab portion of the DO right above the area of the CS that would be mitered. I marked and trimmed the ends of the CSs until they cleared the tabs and then slid the dummy axle holder down to align the CS-to-DO interface. Level the DOs and stays with a height gauge. Tack. Unlike the case pictured, the CSs on the Kroozer come in behind the DO tabs, so there is nothing to do but weld it up and file/sand it smooth.

In the case of the SSs, you can see in the pics that they are clamped in place on the DO tabs. The first step in joining them was to flat the back side of the tube, which was accomplished by placing them over a railroad spike clamped in the vice, and hammering them flat. High tech stuff! Then, the outer portion of the SS tube was trimmed flush to match the level of the DO surface with a 3" cut off and disc grinder. At this point, the face of the DO tab is relieved the thickness of the sheet metal that was used to plate over the opening in the SS, and the SS was then trimmed back further to match. The sheet metal cover plate was trimmed in the bullet shape to cover the opening in the SS. Weld, file, and sand.

I hope that makes sense. Doing that slice & patch mitering process might be my favorite part of the build!


----------



## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Very nice work. Please do us a favor and post pics of completed bike.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

VERY Slick! I really like SS/DO interface. Great job there and very creative.


----------



## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Dragged me over from the fatbike forum John. 

That is just gorgeous. Well done doesn't begin to describe my thoughts. 

Wish I had you time, energy, patience, and tooling. I've built close to 30 frames at this point, but they are all hack jobs compared to this. 

Ever find yourself up my way with it, stop in, I'd love to see it in person. :thumbsup:


----------



## charlichin (Dec 3, 2010)

Impressive piece of work.

Congrats!

Looking forward to see it finished.

Cheers!!!

Charlie War.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Thanks Everyone;

I am truly gratified by the results so far, and your consideration as well. It's the warm glow of having something really click and speak to you. I am now grappling with the cost of powder coating pitted against my aesthetic demands for the project, and getting peripheral bits ready for whatever finish ultimately awaits them. To wit;


----------



## cendres (Nov 4, 2005)

TM, which tubing did you use for this? The overall design is absolutely stunning, but I keep returning to the photos of the stays and dropouts. Amazing. 

Build me one in ti or stainless?


----------



## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

TM- 
Stellar job!! 
I second the best 2nd frame ever.
I'm jealous of your curvy-tubed Rotundcycle!
I love the tape and coat hanger fixturing. Classic! Beautiful dropout/stay work.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

cendres said:


> TM, which tubing did you use for this? The overall design is absolutely stunning, but I keep returning to the photos of the stays and dropouts. Amazing. Build me one in ti or stainless?


Hey;

Don't know nuttin bout Ti. Stainless might not be too much of a stretch, though. 

Boring old straight gauge .035 ChroMo. for this one. The stays are all .750. I thought if I ever built another one, I might get away with .028 x .750 for the SSs at least, and bridges/braces. Save a little weight, given the redundancy of some of the tubing here. .028 x .750 is lighter than .035 x .675, by the by... and I'd imagine it might also stronger too. Don't know, but it's an interesting thought.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Whit;

You were very kind to take an interest in my earliest ramblings on this topic of frame building, and I'm glad you like it.

:thumbsup:

-


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

COOL;

The Big Brown Truck just paid a visit!


----------



## cendres (Nov 4, 2005)

Brown Santa! 

Idea: Rather than powder, emery cloth it and clear it. The heat-affected zones look really cool.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Meh;

I'm not big on raw, really. My welds are nothing to show off either! Besides, clear won't stay on bare metal for long.

Annoyance - I wanted to get rid of the juvenile SINZ logo on the seat clamp. Figured I'd take the lever and buff it off with a rag and some compound. Yep, buffed off, but the white powder coat is pretty thin, and I went through it! Damn. Well, nothing to lose. Tried a little carb cleaner on a rag and the same logo on the clamp body wiped right off like grease. DOUBLE Damn!

How come you always find out what to do first second?!?! :madman:


----------



## cendres (Nov 4, 2005)

Heh. Measure once, cut twice...


----------



## jcaino (May 26, 2007)

Wow. I really need to learn how to weld.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

*Another in a Series...*

Just for those that love to agonize over my "time wasting projects."










This is my Problem Solver for my Problem Solver; taking a standard 68/73 direct mount derailleur adapter out to a 100mm Fatbike version. Why, you are doubtless asking? There are very good reasons for it.

1) ANY project that requires making something out of metal is good in my book.

2) Every time I do one, I learn and improve.

3) Saved me another shipping charge. ?? :skep:

Tried buying anything for a Fatbike lately? If you have, you already know where I am going. The Fat market is exploding so fast that you just can't find anything. If you do, you better not hesitate or it will be GONE. I had a nice little order all put together, and only needed a few $$ more to get free shipping. Ha! I'll get the FD/DM. They don't HAVE the Fat mount?!?! Out of Stock?!?! :madman:

Ta Da. Another $10, another cardboard box, another week... or another project? Win, win, win. It's all good to me! 

-


----------



## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

TrailMaker said:


> Just for those that love to agonize over my "time wasting projects."-


What? If possible I'd rather make the part than buy if reasonably possible.

Find it funny that you can not find anything fatbike as they are to popular. Here the LBS will not order one as they are afraid it will never sell.


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

If my "machine shop" consisted of more than a harbor freight bench grinder and a dremel.... I'd look for reasons to make that kind of thing.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

crux said:


> What? If possible I'd rather make the part than buy if reasonably possible.


I guess it depends on your frame of reference. Many here feel it is a poor use of their time, and would rather buy their bits. We obviously fill a different frame!



> Find it funny that you can not find anything fatbike as they are to popular. Here the LBS will not order one as they are afraid it will never sell.


Ironic indeed. They are out of touch with their own industry. Fatbikes are the fastest growing portion of it right now. If nothing else, they should see the value in having something that draws people's attention, even if it didn't sell. The smart businessman would get one and start taking it on the weekly shop/group rides. When people experienced them, he'd be selling them regularly in very little time after that!

Tell this shop to check out the Global Fatbike Day thread, over on the busiest forum on MTBR!


----------



## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Yogii said:


> Sweet!
> 
> I just hope that your legs do not scrap against the forward seat stays.....2 tone?


That was my second thought (after WOW that's beautiful dropout work!!). With as wide of a BB and crank setup as he'll run for going fat it may not be an issue. I hit mine all the time on my 36er but I'm just used to it now. Only bang it hard every once in a while.


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Heel clearance might be the function behind the form. On my new Fatty using the same drops, shorter chainstays and size 12.5 Lake's I'm just barely Ok. But I offset my chainstay at the dropout outboard as much as practical. With how he finished the drops having nothing outboard of the drops themselves..... I bet TM's just fine in that regard, unless he pronates worse than I do with huge feet.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I agonized over that very issue, to the point of actually posting a thread about how one manipulated a tube in two planes. I note that the custom Fatback Ti belt drive cruiser does not appear to have any significant manipulation of the SSs in the horizontal plane, but I never found any good pics of the rear end of it.










I had all kinds of ideas for how to try it, but in the end I just didn't feel like potentially wasting many $$$ worth of tubing trying to find out. The thing that sealed the deal for this design was riding my current fatbike to see. My feet were FAR outboard of where those SSs were, will be far below where these arched ones will lie, I think, and it suddenly became a non issue in my mind. Sure, they will be closer than normal, and there may be more contact than normal if I get lazy, but I don't think it will be a big deal.

I hope.

I'm really looking forward to the new CS layout. They are straight back from the bend around the tire to the DO, and well inboard of where my first design was on the Humvee. I do have some moderate contact on it, so I'm interested to try this one out. The low mount Paragon DOs really made this all possible.


----------



## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

TrailMaker said:


>


Curious as to why you went this route over making a braze on FD mount.

(really like the chainstays, BTW)


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Feldybikes said:


> Curious as to why you went this route over making a braze on FD mount.


Hey;

The rigidity of the braze on is nice, but comes at the price of adjustability. This adapter defeats some of the advantage of the direct mount, but I have had many times where giving the FD a little radial tweak was just the cure for the constant battle between chain rub in higher gears and a crisp downshift under power into lower ones.

Anyway... amongst all the other new challenges, I added cable stays on this one. One hurdle at a time, please.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)




----------



## FastFix (Sep 29, 2007)

To sick, TrailMaker! I am in awe of your fabrication skills. Also can't wait to see the pics of the finished product.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

FastFix said:


> To sick, TrailMaker! I am in awe of your fabrication skills. Also can't wait to see the pics of the finished product.


Thanks Mate;

Me either. I'm just this close to saying screw the PCer and painting it myself! :madman:


----------



## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

I rattle-canned my first and only (so far) frame. Not knowing how long the frame would last, I didn't want to spend the $$$ for a good paint job. Several hundred miles later, I kinda wish I had invested in a good paint job. Yours is a beautiful frame....please be patient!


----------



## becik (May 5, 2008)

Wow !
extremely nicely executed.


Post somes pics of it fully built.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Off for PC tomorrow!


----------



## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

Damn man, That is some nice work. Bending work and really nice finish work Thumbs up!


----------



## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

Insanely cool !!!
I can hardly wait to see what the third one will be like :thumbsup:


----------



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

This frame is car bone approved and gets the badass frame of the year award.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Thanks Guys;

I knew this design was going to be pretty strong when it was on the screen in front of me for months, but even I am totally impressed with it. Every time I look at it I just get that;









_unn Rock, rock, rock, rock, Go T Man, Go T Man, rock, rock, rock, rock_ feeling.

At the same time as it is glowing in my heart, I am also quite afraid that I may have shot my wad toooooo early in my career, and it will be back to obscurity!

OK, reality check. I got it back from PC yesterday. They did a nice job, but.... I wanted it two-toned, but to mask it and powder it would have been time consuming, read expensive. Well, we tried a fade. FAIL. DOINK. I should have known better than to try it, because I've done it with wet spray and it is REALLY TOUGH to get right. Powder does not necessarily go where you want it to! It is one of the most often tried and yet least successful custom looks there is, and when it is inevitably done poorly, it looks REEEEEALLY stoopid. Epic Fails at least 98% of the time it is tried. Any pro painter knows that.

Sooooo...... :skep: Now I'm looking for ways to fix it without a complete redo. Yes, I knew it in the back of my mind before hand. Yes, I knew it the minute I looked at it. Yes, I should have just left it there and asked them to redo it. The only thing that I can say about them is that they should have known right away it would not fly, but that might be asking a lot of the "non-artist."

So, more time. In the interim, I can learn how to re-lace the wheels. The drilled rims with colored strips look just utterly dope. Because this thing is going to be so incredibly awesome, the frame paint simply MUST be redone.

Tickticktickticktick.......


----------



## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

That's really frustrating. I hate powder coating my frames just because it's so likely I'll screw it up.

Don't let anybody strip it who doesn't know bikes. It's not that hard for a big sand blaster to put a whole in a tube. A few years ago a gentleman on the Framebuilder's list had his lugged frame powder coated and when he picked it up most of the silver had dripped out of the lugs. They wouldn't admit it but it was obvious they screwed up the first jib and burned it off, thus melting the silver.

I've had good luck with Aircraft Remover for removing powder coat. Get some rubber gloves and wire brushes and go to town.

-Joel


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Probably best to stick with single colors for PC.... Unless you're Spectrum. And be prepared to pay for it.


----------



## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Perhaps let us judge how ugly it is? 

Besides, I think we all love pics of that thing anyway 

Once she's covered in mud, you may not even care what it looks like. 

I don't even paint the frames I build for myself. Let them rust in peace. Costs more to do it than the tubes ran me, so why bother....

However, you're obviously detail oriented, and knowing it isn't "just right" may make you nuts. No once can know that but you!


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Nope;

This is nowhere close to fail, even, but I don't really blame them. I'm the best judge there is of what is good and what I want. I'm also very good at judging what other people want, even if they don't know themselves. After hours of talking with people about their projects and what they will be like, I just tell them, "look... I have a general idea of what you think you want, but do be aware that I am not doing this for you. I'm doing it for me. If I am merely satisfied, you will be orgasmic because I can out fuss anyone. I can be as fussy as you can afford. I've never had to redo anything yet!!

I have an idea of how to salvage it worked out in my head. We'll see if we can pull it off. I think it is very doable. Until then, I'll content myself with lacing wheels and blinging them out a bit. Wait till you see this (if it works)... :eekster:


----------



## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

This looks like Aircraft Remover.


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Strategically placed painted panels?


----------



## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

I haven't used it, so I can't swear by it, but ... Permatex 80646 is supposed to be the chemical removal method of choice.

Removing Powder Coating Quickly and Cheaply -- Chopper Surplus


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

TrailMaker said:


> Nope;
> 
> This is nowhere close to fail, even, but I don't really blame them. I'm the best judge there is of what is good and what I want. I'm also very good at judging what other people want, even if they don't know themselves. After hours of talking with people about their projects and what they will be like, I just tell them, "look... I have a general idea of what you think you want, but do be aware that I am not doing this for you. I'm doing it for me. If I am merely satisfied, you will be orgasmic because I can out fuss anyone. I can be as fussy as you can afford. I've never had to redo anything yet!!
> 
> I have an idea of how to salvage it worked out in my head. We'll see if we can pull it off. I think it is very doable. Until then, I'll content myself with lacing wheels and blinging them out a bit. Wait till you see this (if it works)... :eekster:


They may be able to just overcoat the frame. Ask before you do anything.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

*Wheel Building Hurdle #1*

OK;

Check off the first one. It took a few swings, but I finally hit the first curve ball. The video tutorial I was watching used spoke holes directly opposite each other on opposing flanges. Just could not get the wheel to lace on the BS until I stopped to take note of those spoke holes. Turns out the spoke holes on these hubs are BETWEEN the ones on the other flange, so his method would not work at all. To be fair, he did mention that hubs all have their idiosyncrasies, so there are no hard rules for them.

Took a couple of tries to locate the proper starting hole for the "Innies" on the BS, but when I found it, it all came good! Two wheels laced and ready for truing.

As I mentioned previously, I've never done wheels before, but I know quite for sure that lacing is the EASY part of wheel building! What fun lies ahead.... :skep:


----------



## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

I would keep the color simple being that the frame is so nicely crafted. I would not go crazy with colors. What are you going with for components?


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

TrailMaker said:


> OK;
> 
> Check off the first one. It took a few swings, but I finally hit the first curve ball. The video tutorial I was watching used spoke holes directly opposite each other on opposing flanges. Just could not get the wheel to lace on the BS until I stopped to take note of those spoke holes. **Turns out the spoke holes on these hubs are BETWEEN the ones on the other flange*, so his method would not work at all. To be fair, he did mention that hubs all have their idiosyncrasies, so there are no hard rules for them.
> 
> ...


*That is true with all hubs. Matches the position of the spoke holes in the rim. The Crank Brothers wheels being an exception.

If you are using the video I think you are, it is cr##, and screws up the lacing pattern. Read this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/first-wheel-build-spoke-issues-822812.html?


----------



## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

I learned how to build wheels from Sheldon Brown. Not personally, of course. What a loss for the cycling community. Nobody gave the straight dope like Sheldon.


----------



## Stockli Boy (Feb 3, 2012)

Also refer to Zinn's books for good tutorials on wheelbuilding. I've done about 30 pairs and always refer to my 2004 Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance when lacing. Worked fine for my offset GFS Pugz wheelset.

Be careful and count your turns and revolutions while tensioning. Gravy's signature of one colored nipple is worth stealing, as you should go 1/4 turns all the way around as you tension. Resist the urge to go for more. It is also important to start with all nipples at 3 threads visible. Staying religious with this will build a wheel with minimal hop and fast truing. Oh, and the first beer should come AFTER you get it laced. then it might take 2-3 during the tensioning/truing phase.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Well;

I was indeed using the Bike Tube vid. After I figured out the offset spoke hole thing, the only thing that was "difficult" was getting the fist spoke in the right spot to line the logo on the hub with the valve hole. I ran each spoke on roughly 5 turns to start. I then took my screw driver and ran them until the driver would not any more. At this point they were not tight. Then, I used the spoke wrench for 5 half turns more each. By feel they were moderately snug at this point. I dropped the front wheel in the fork and SHAZZAM! No hop at all, and it only took 5 minutes to bring into true to my taste. Mostly it was trying to optimize the rather loose tolerance of the rim joint! The "ting test" has all spokes sounding off in tune, to an amazing degree, frankly.

Simple! 

Since the front was so easy, I am of course fully prepared for the rear wheel to be an absolute beyach.


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Well done TM. No 2 rims are ever alike, and the challenge of the rim joint.......

Keep up the good work.

Eric


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Thanks Mate;

I must be the wheel building savant. The rear one was just as easy as the front. I have not trued it yet, and need to check it for center, but it also has zero hop and very little run out. Of course not having to calculate spoke lengths and all that is a big advantage, but simply taking them apart and putting them back together was not very difficult.

Or maybe I just got lucky.....


----------



## Sick Sticks (Jan 18, 2008)

I'm feeling quite inspired. Where does one source a 100mm steel bb shell?


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I've gotten them from both Whipsmart and Paragon.


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Hey Trail we need some update pics!


----------



## Fox Fire (Feb 18, 2010)

Man, this is a work of art, I'm a big fan of cruiser frame styles & to have one built like this would be the perfect bike, thers not enuff digits on the cool factor chart to measure this on, wish I had your talent.

BRAVO, BRAVO, MORE !!!


----------



## Fox Fire (Feb 18, 2010)

Have to ask...are you a machinist or welder by trade ?? you to do some very clean work.:thumbsup:


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I started out in auto collision professionally, and was into muscle cars and such. I drove my first Porsche in 1989 and bought it two days later. Not much interest in muscle cars after that! I've transitioned away from working on cars to now eventually owning my own Porsche specialty shop. Anything fabrication has always been a natural for me, and I've just recently gotten more serious about machining, but I have no formal training in any of it. I had near a dozen bikes in my stable as a kid, so combine that love with fabrication and a serious creative streak, and voila!

Right now in the mid holiday doldrums, I'm looking at ways of fixing this powder coat job. Not near good enough for this project. I'll be working with the PCer this week, hopefully. Otherwise I could finish it in a couple of hours, but until then, no build progress.


----------



## Fox Fire (Feb 18, 2010)

Cool mindset man, good old American ingenuity, HAIL YEOUW !!! 

Ya gotta give us a clue as to what color/s you thinking .....


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)




----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Very nice TM.

Glad the Trueing went well for you. The rims must be well made in circular and joint tolerances.

Did you do a before and after weight check? Interested to see how much weight came off the rims.

Eric


----------



## MiWi (Jan 1, 2013)

Absolutely stunning work ! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

One thing I have still not gotten is a scale for weighing such things. I've wanted one that would weigh to 10ths of a gram, from virtually nothing all the way to 15-20lbs, but I'm not sure such exists. I haven't found it yet anyway. Suffice to say it is a VERY noticeable weight loss. Really kind of geeked me out while I was doing it. I mean, I weigh 240 and it made me kind of wiggy feeling how light they were getting. I think I've read upwards of 1lb, and these are "only" 1.375 holes. I'm sure it could be searched for over on the FB Forum, as this is a common mod.

This will partially compensate for the cheap 27TPI tires it will have on it some of the time. I'll be interested to see how they hold up.


----------



## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

Looking very cool ... Definately keeping an eye out for the final result.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Old Will Knott!*

TM -

I use this one:
My Weigh UltraShip 35

I figure + o - 5g or so is acceptable for bike stuff, and I wanted to be able to weigh big boxes of bike frames for shipping.

If you want more/less max weight or better accuracy, you can get those things (ie 3000g max and 1g increment) for pretty cheap. They have everything scale-related known to man, it's awesome.

This sucker is close to what you're looking for:
Citizen CT-3000H

-Walt



TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> One thing I have still not gotten is a scale for weighing such things. I've wanted one that would weigh to 10ths of a gram, from virtually nothing all the way to 15-20lbs, but I'm not sure such exists. I haven't found it yet anyway. Suffice to say it is a VERY noticeable weight loss. Really kind of geeked me out while I was doing it. I mean, I weigh 240 and it made me kind of wiggy feeling how light they were getting. I think I've read upwards of 1lb, and these are "only" 1.375 holes. I'm sure it could be searched for over on the FB Forum, as this is a common mod.
> 
> This will partially compensate for the cheap 27TPI tires it will have on it some of the time. I'll be interested to see how they hold up.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Thanks Walt;

A great resource!


----------



## petey15 (Sep 1, 2006)

Whoa! I hadn't seen this thread before, but remember you mentioning your new build on the trail at CVSP (we both were out on a picture-taking excursion and you got some shots of me). I am in complete and utter awe! That frame is a thing of beauty and I'm pretty much rendered speechless right now. I cannot wait to see you out on the trails on that!! What's the ETA on completion?


----------



## cendres (Nov 4, 2005)

The wheels look excellent, John! I've got a remarkably similar pair in my garage for a client.


----------



## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

TM,

So happy for you that you are having such fun.

It is in concept fabrication like this that time invested in working through "meaningless projects" to build a solid foundation of problem solving pays off :thumbsup: 

Forget the powder coat, you know it is unlikely to produce the finish you desire. It's time to take the next step and begin learning the art of paint...it will enrich your experience.

rody


----------



## 1 cog frog (Dec 21, 2004)

*Wow*

Blown away! That is a beautiful frame. Can't wait to see it finished and built up!

I am a machinist, and totally understand the "why buy it when I can make it" mentality. It may seem silly to the average Joe or Jane, but there is an inherent satisfaction in using something that I built with my own 2 hands and some cool machines!

I get all giddy when an idea pops in my head followed by the "I can make that" realization!

Looking forward to the finished build!

frog


----------



## bmxrider13 (Jan 7, 2013)

*wow*

cool frame man


----------



## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

*TM,*

Fat Paint








I found what you need


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

The rims turned out great now we need to see a roller....come on Trail you killin us!!!


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

todwil said:


> ... now we need to see a roller....come on Trail you killin us!!!


Yeh;

I'm at the head of that line. I should hear from the PCer tomorrow I hope. The fix won't look perfect, I don't think, but hopefully it is better than the first attempt. All I can offer right now is another tease.


----------



## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

TrailMaker said:


> Yeh;
> 
> I'm at the head of that line. I should hear from the PCer tomorrow I hope. The fix won't look perfect, I don't think, but hopefully it is better than the first attempt. All I can offer right now is another tease.


Your such a tease.

And now for a shameless plug to top off the beautiful frame with a hand fabricated top cap. Warned you it would be a shameless plug.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Yes;

I have spent time on your site, looking through all of your offerings, and was quite impressed by the creativity and craftsmanship. Plug away as much as you like as far as I'm concerned.

:thumbsup:


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

todwil said:


> The rims turned out great now we need to see a roller....come on Trail you killin us!!!


 OK Trail we need some pics its been two weeks...and we're not taking no as an answer!!


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Yah....

How 'bout a nice pic of my proposed HT badge?










Otherwise, its a no. Rest assured... I'm not a happy camper.

:madman:

-


----------



## briderdt (Dec 14, 2012)

Nice badge! I like it.


----------



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Snow will be all melted by the time this gets finished.

Sucks to hear the PC is holding up your build.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

- WOOT 

-


----------



## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

I'd have went all blue on the frame ... But it's your bike 

And it's looking very cool !!!


----------



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

That looks really good.


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Nice Fatty*

Trail that's going to be b!tchin fat!!! nice job!


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

bikeabuser said:


> I'd have went all blue on the frame ... But it's your bike


I'll larn yuh. Aint neer dun yet!


----------



## adarn (Aug 11, 2009)

Sick!!


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

It looks awesome!!!


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

dang time out......


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

I agree;

I am very pleased with the theme and the look. All the detail items to come will just add to that. If it rides as good as it looks, I will be ecstatic!


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Looks great :thumbsup: What was the issue with the first PC attempt?


----------



## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Doh! Double post. Sorry about that.


----------



## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Bike is taking shape and looking great. 

Would be interested if there is any interference issues with the wide seat stays in how they join the down tube. Please follow up with a ride report.

Again the bike looks fantastic. :thumbsup:


----------



## jcaino (May 26, 2007)

Is that picture deceiving, or does it look like the Nate is rubbing the seat stays?


----------



## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Wowsers! Looks awesome. :thumbsup:

I almost liked it better raw, but I'm weird like that. 

Can't wait ti see it fully rideable, and dirty...:ihih:


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Ha;

There is a little bit of "personality" in the spacing of the rear stays, but no, it does not rub anywhere. There is actually about 8-10mm of clearance at the SSs. One CS is a little close at the bridge, but I have to check the DO slots for excess PC yet.

Excess PC because the blue was done twice. Originally I wanted it 2-toned like this, but the tape they use that withstands the heat does not bend, so it would have to be straight lines as it is now when I wanted the cut line parallel across both tubes. My instinct told me to let it go and spray the white afterwards, until they suggested a fade. "We do it all the time." "Sounds great!" It weren't.

They did not control the travel of the fade at all; one side being on the DT only, the other being way back on the SS. I was not pleased, and so we settled on this method of solving it. Then, the taped white tracked up from the re-heat, so there are marks in the white powder. Look close and it is a bit disappointing. Put away the microscope and it looks stunning. It's a great five-footer!

The thing that really annoys me is that in talking to the powder guy he said he does it on MC frames all the time and it works great. For some strange reason, he hung my frame vertical instead of horizontal, so the powder mist had to cross the frame on one side as it headed for the fan. Why in he!! they did it in a way other than that which they knew to work is beyond me. 50-75% of the difficulty in any spray job on a part like this is in how you jig it, and they SHOULD be good at that by now, because weird stuff is all they do! The fact that they did not charge me for the redo does not settle all of that, or the "extra weight" of two coatings, but it is what it is.



> Would be interested if there is any interference issues with the wide seat stays in how they join the down tube


Not sure what you mean. Remember we have a 100mm (3.94") BB spacing here, and the bullets area is only a combined 3" wide, and well forward of any foot travel. For the same reason, where they are widest should not present any problem either, based on riding and studying my other Fatty.

Assembly begins during the week ahead!


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

You will never notice the rear misalignment and/or non-symmetrical stays when riding, I wouldn't worry about it.

Ah, your first experience with a powdercoater who screws stuff up! Welcome to the club!

-W


----------



## petey15 (Sep 1, 2006)

Wow!!! I love how you tied everything in with the blue rim tape and the white rims. Sharp!


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

...and a lot more tire clearance now that they are aired down from 40psi!


----------



## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

TrailMaker said:


> ...and a lot more tire clearance now that they are aired down from 40psi!


LOL I would hope so!

I was running 5 psi last night.


----------



## 1 cog frog (Dec 21, 2004)

*Stunning!*

I am a sucker for that style of frame anyway, but that is a beautiful bike! Can't wait to see it built up. Where is the jaw drop emoticon? :thumbsup:

frog


----------



## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

I agree man, it looks great. It's always interesting to watch you go through your process, and we almost always learn something from it while watching.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Ha!

Thanks again Folks. FB; That is quite gracious of you. No one is learning more than I am! 

The build began very slightly on Sunday as I gooped the inside of the frame (3M Rust Fighter spray) and did the headset and fork. Today saw the 3M paint protection film I always use installed on the stays to keep them shiny and spiff. The BB, cranks, and FD went on, along with cassette, rotors, adapters, and calipers set floating awaiting custom hoses. Once the bars go on things will really get going.

Might be able to take it out for a shakedown this weekend... if I calculated everything right and didn't forget anything!


----------



## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

I demand a fully photo shoot ... And the girl better not detract from the bike


----------



## mickuk (Jul 6, 2007)

Utterly Fabulous job - can't wait to see it finished.

They hung my last PC job vertical and managed to get huge drips from every downward facing part :-( then packaged it up completely oblivious to the mess they made - and that was from a company calling itself "Superior Powdercoating"


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Fortunately;

The PC is not a mess, just not as nice as it should be. Hopefully it does not chip off 
easily, being so thick.

First pedal strokes under power today. I goofed on my first frame and the HT that was 
supposed to be 70* ended up being somewhere around 71.5*. First impressions of this 
bike are, WOW, it steers much nicer! Even with the heavy and grabby Nate tire, the 
steering seemed very neutral compared to the very heavy self steer on the Humvee. 
Absolutely no foot-to-SS clearance issues at all. Not even close, really. So far; perfect!

I did not know how to bleed the Stroker Trails, so the system is dry. I only fingered the 
brake lever once during my test creep! Not NEARLY enough cable in those custom 
Jagwire kits for this bike, so I have to order more white housing to finish the FD. Trying to 
decide between white Crud Catchers that will contrast (will it look busy?) or black that will 
quite possibly disappear visually, keeping the look cleaner. There's certainly no shortage
of visual hooks already!

Tease; 










-


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

*Nearly There...*























































Just a few details left to go. I've got enough of it together for a shakedown ride, although I may regret not having the FD hooked up if I get into any hilly stuff. Only marginally successful ghetto bleed on the brakes so far, as I don't have the kit for the Stroker series. After 50 degrees and lots of rain yesterday, and now back to upper 20s, with any luck it will stay cold and freeze up so I don't have to get it plastered with mud. Not quite ready for that yet. Not before I get the fenders anyway.

Coming soon to a trail near me!


----------



## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Beautius! Classic coloring! Came together really nicely and you can just see the effort that went into that whole entire build. Congrats and shoot out a ride report if you get out! I hope it's never that clean again.

PS- love the Thudbuster, truly. Those saved my back for years.


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

WOW Just WOW nice job!


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

TM

Simply SUPERBE.

In the pictures, it looks very balanced in its proportions and I know you are a big guy, so making it look 'smaller' than it really is, is a BIG achievement. If I were to stand by it in real time....this is a very big bike, so well done. It simply looks 'Right'.

Love the seat post.

Eric


----------



## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

TM,
That thing is sick in the best way imaginable ... Very inspirational :thumbsup:


----------



## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

*wish it had more attitude*

what a nice job fabricating such a sweet thing!
Great colors, great lines, I want one!!!
cheers
andy walker


----------



## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Just an incredible effort. Whatever it takes, you've got it, man! This bike should be at NAHBS this year.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

*1st Ride - What an F'n DISASTER!*

Hey;

The bike rides great, *what little I was able to ride it*. I was a little surprised that the self steer that was not evident at all even on pavement became noticeable on the trail at speed. Still, it is nothing that cannot be dealt with, and I suppose is somewhat endemic of the large tires. All was well with the world!

I've spent 7 blissful years riding bikes WITHOUT flimsy replaceable derailleur hangers. My Heckler, RIP9, and Humvee have solid mount DOs, the first two of the three replaceable, and I've grown to love them. In that time, I've only had ONE problem with a derailleur; I somehow rode over and flipped a 6" piece of stick into the jockey wheels and sheared the mount bolt clean off on my RIP9 on it's 4th ride. I got a junk derailleur from the LBS, scarfed the pivot bolt for a repair, and ride that same derailleur today. That one headache has been more than made up for by the utter LACK of constant shifting problems I've had on bikes with replaceable hangers that bend every time you look at them funny.

One of the things I was very ambivalent about was using these Paragon low mount DOs, ONLY for the fact that they use alloy RD hangers. It took exactly ONE RIDE to make me HATE that decision. They are beautiful DOs, but... :madmax: He!!, it was my fault. I've gotten spoiled by the durability of having a solid mount. It wasn't 2 miles into this maiden voyage when a branch went into the chain and SNAP. Just like glass. Didn't even have time to stop. POS! I still don't believe what happened next.

So, I did what any hard-nosed survivalist MTBer would do. I picked a gear, shortened the (brand new!) chain, and rode single speed. I don't have the FD hooked up yet due to a lack of cable housing. I reasoned I didn't want to go too big for the climbs, but I was sort of dissing my gear choice, as Granny 3 was a little short for cruising the flats. Never in a million years would it have occurred to me that what was about to happen would happen. It just seems so improbable.

Every time I've done one of these bodges for friends that have trashed their derailleurs, they usually end up either skipping horribly under power due to lack of chain wrap, or shifting their way down the cassette because there is nothing to keep gravity from letting the chain do just that. I actually had to take the wheel out a bit to get the chain on, and when it was all installed, I had less than 1" of chain deflection, likely closer to .5" It looked like a great setup, and worked just fine for about a mile along the river bottom.

Eventually you have to climb, and as I laid in the first few power strokes and hit the meat of the climb, the chain incongruously shifted from 3rd to 2nd. Something had to give, and it sure a F did.....




























Never in a million years would I have guessed that this was probable, or "even possible." I still don't believe it. Guess that's what I get for building something so pretty.....................


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Did you spring for the 7075 hanger? That's what I've used twice a they are pretty beefy for a replaceable hanger. I was first shocked the drop bent, but then I saw your hub! I'd place blame at whatever the actual F* happened inside it. The hub was a Salsa right? The nicer one or the cheaper one?


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

TM

Its at moments like these that I go into terminal silence - gutting.

Fortunately, the wheel axle is replaceable and the D/O can be straightened.

It knocks the confidence, however.

I've had only 1 experience of this kind and it was a solid D/O that snapped with nothing getting into the chain at all, just metal fatigue....it was a long walk home.

Condolences

Eric


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Thanks *Eric*, My Friend. As *Shoo *said on the Fatbike forum, "a buzzkill." Indeed. Yes, the DO can be straightened, and I believe that is the extent of the frame damage. The skewer can be straightened. The axle can be replaced. Don't know about the freehub or anything else yet. I was too stunned to really get into it.

Am I wrong in thinking that it is HIGHLY unlikely for a chain to climb like that when it is essentially "too tight to do so?" Obviously something bounced it enough that it caught a ramp or something. There had been NO rattling of the chain trying to climb prior to that whatsoever. Just like there was only one cog there.

*G*; Yes, it was the 7075 hanger. I thought it was really flimsy when I put it on the other day. It snapped like glass. How funny that I was going to make a spare out of steel... some day. I likely already would have if I had a 10mm x 1.0 tap! I don't know what hub it is. I believe I remember right that it is a Salsa, but I wouldn't have a clue beyond that. I was not even aware there were two models. I'll be curious to see if it is a steel or Al axle, though.

I don't think there was any problem with the hub itself that caused this. It is my belief that the chain simply climbed the cassette. I had it on 3 and it is sitting jammed onto 2 right now. No way to get it off by hand. It's that tight. Since the chain was then too short for the circumference of that gear pair, something had to give. Would I be wrong in now having the feeling that these DOs are a bit fragile, or is that unfair?

:smallviolin:


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> Thanks *Eric*, My Friend. As *Shoo *said on the Fatbike forum, "a buzzkill." Indeed. Yes, the DO can be straightened, and I believe that is the extent of the frame damage. The skewer can be straightened. The axle can be replaced. Don't know about the freehub or anything else yet. I was too stunned to really get into it.
> 
> ...


Sorry to see that happen. I hate replaceable hangers, too.

The cogs are designed to shift, and they are close together. When you SS it the chainline needs to be perfectly straight for it to have any chance to work. Any bounce or flex can screw you.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

shiggy said:


> Any bounce or flex can screw you.


It Did!


----------



## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

Aw man ... That sucks !!!

I still dig your design ... Beautiful lines.

Hopefully this is just a small growing pain.


----------



## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

*Plate dropouts suck!*

Plate drops are much more likely to bend vs. hooded style. The low mount chainstay style ones look wimpy and seem like a bad approach vs. alternatives.

I am pretty sure you can repair it as is but if you replace go with a hooded dropout.

Hooded drops are a lot stronger and stiffer.

IMHO The future of mountain bikes is 142x12 through axle. The new Paragon hooded through axle drops look super bomber.

It's a setback but I am sure that at some point in the future you will look back and laugh about it.


----------



## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Trailmaker: my heart is breaking for you. What a painful (but valuable) learning experience. Be vigilant about keeping the right attitude, and you will grow from this. I know you've got what it takes.


----------



## wort (Jan 9, 2013)

TM,

My sympathies to you and your injured blue friend. I have been watching this bike come together the last few weeks, and am amazed by it. It is unfortunate that such a thing would happen, but you can take comfort in that the steel frame can be repaired and made stronger.

-Weston


----------



## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

TM-
Wow, [email protected]!!
That's a complete nightmare. I cannot imagine the frustration...

I think Shiggy's on the mark, I wouldn't blame the dropouts. They've been tested well. Something had to give!

But for replaceable hangers, that one did what it was supposed to do, break under too much stress. Something else would've snapped had not the hanger (like the derailleur). Cheaper to replace the der! You can always swap the AL hanger for their steel one --
DR2061. It's seriously beefy and I doubt it can actually break.

Best of luck with the repair, it deserves to be back out there on the trail!

Cheers,
Whit


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

> TM, My sympathies to you and your injured blue friend. I have been watching this bike come together the last few weeks, and am amazed by it. It is unfortunate that such a thing would happen, but you can take comfort in that the steel frame can be repaired and made stronger.


*Weston *;

Thank you Sir. Very gracious of you. I too am amazed by it. I am not a stranger to creating varied things in many differing mediums that people think are in one way or another compelling, and yet this one has even me in awe. I sort of feel odd when I think about riding it in the woods. It is just sooo not a woodsy looking machine. It just SCREAMS, "look at me" like a buxom bobby-soxer cheerleader in a tight cashmere sweater. Still, it is what I wanted it to be, and more. I'm glad you and others have appreciated it along with me. Beyond the notoriety - which all artists enjoy to some extent - and your own internal satisfaction, knowing that others derive pleasure from what you create is very rewarding!

I'm glad you felt compelled to come out for Post #2! :thumbsup:


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

No real diss to the DO. They are really a work of art, and fit tremendously well with this theme, I think. Retro-technical looking. Now, if you hold one of these in your hand, and you are used to looking at things through the prism of being 240lbs, you can't think anything but that these might be just a little under sized. I think they could stand a mm or two more thickness, personally.

They certainly are not designed to take the kind of force they saw here. Neither was the aluminum axle that snapped off just as easily as the flimsy hanger did. When you consider the force it would take to snap a brand new chain in tension (many hundreds of pounds, no doubt), and consider that this did not happen, then it is no real surprise that other things gave. They had to. I would add that aluminum axle to a list of things that really need to be strengthened a bit. When you consider the pounding they must take, and look at how thin they are, it is really no surprise that this happened. It is likely time for the 12mm T/A size to take hold as the standard for everything.

I'm thinking the steel axle looks much better to me as a replacement... for the next time I tear my RD off and try single speeding! :skep:


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Oh;

Frame repaired. Dummy axle slips right in, no problem. Very minimal loss of paint. Happened to have some paint on the shelf that was a dead ringer. A Porsche color, no less. A couple of little dabs will do me. Now the old story.... waiting for parts!


----------



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

With all this bad luck you can probably expect no problems at all when you rebuild it, the frame has probably ran out of bad luck by now.

Anyway 70-series breaks and 60 series alu, like 6061 bends. Ti would be a nice alternative, since it bends quite a lot until it snaps clean, But it flexes back. CP2 ti is quite weak, about on par with good alu, but much more durable, and if it bends you can probably bend it back. Its much more forgiving than 6-4 or even 3-2,5, those ones snaps/cracks. In an hour or so you could easily anglegrind and file out a new cp2 ti hanger.


----------



## jcaino (May 26, 2007)

That's great to hear....hope you get back on it soon!


----------



## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

As sweet as the windowed ones are, I have yet to build a frame with them. When I do low mounts, I opt for the expidetion ones. Yeah, they are heavier, but unless I was doing a disc specific road bike, I wouldnt use the windowed ones.










Good luck with the repairs!

Ryan


----------



## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Sorry to see the damage. Glad to hear the frame is repaired.  Hopefully the replacement axle will be solid and no more issues.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm not sure I'm following what happened here. Was the chain deliberately too short when it was put on? That's all I'm gathering from two different threads showing the failure and neither really explaining why.


----------



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

jay_ntwr said:


> I'm not sure I'm following what happened here. Was the chain deliberately too short when it was put on? That's all I'm gathering from two different threads showing the failure and neither really explaining why.


the hanger broke due to it being 70series alu, and he had to run it SS, so he shorted down the chain, and it probably wasn't completely in line, so it shifted up a cog and BAM! Bye bye hub/frame.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Ouch.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

In Post # 133, I said;



TrailMaker said:


> So, I did what any hard-nosed survivalist MTBer would do. I picked a gear, shortened the (brand new!) chain, and rode single speed. I don't have the FD hooked up yet due to a lack of cable housing. I reasoned I didn't want to go too big for the climbs, but I was sort of dissing my gear choice, as Granny 3 was a little short for cruising the flats. Never in a million years would it have occurred to me that what was about to happen would happen. It just seems so improbable.
> 
> Every time I've done one of these bodges for friends that have trashed their derailleurs, they usually end up either skipping horribly under power due to lack of chain wrap, or shifting their way down the cassette because there is nothing to keep gravity from letting the chain do just that. I actually had to take the wheel out a bit to get the chain on, and when it was all installed, I had less than 1" of chain deflection, likely closer to .5" It looked like a great setup, and worked just fine for about a mile along the river bottom.
> 
> Eventually you have to climb, and as I laid in the first few power strokes and hit the meat of the climb, the chain incongruously shifted from 3rd to 2nd. Something had to give, and it sure a F did.....


I thought I had a pretty good setup. I cranked it through quite a bit and listened for chain rattle, but got none then nor in the 1.5 miles I rode after rigging it. I never heard a sound until it just bound solid. I even did a shorter but difficult climb prior to this. Live and learn. I learned I needed to pay more attention to chain line. Also, that I should have just gone with my initial disgust with it all and bailed for the road and an easy cruise back to the car. Sometimes being "can do" doesn't pay!

Oh, I also found out for sure that I am truly exceptional and special. I am the first person to break a Salsa aluminum axle that they are aware of. Lucky me!


----------



## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

TM, perhaps consider the Naked Boomerang dropouts for your next build. I like them better than the Paragons. No replaceable hanger. Available a full 0.25" thick too. Look here, about halfway down the page:

Naked Bicycles & Design | Get Naked | Swag

Sorry about the wierd lesson. Hopefully something was learned - though the random nature of the failure cause makes me wonder what. B


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

MDEnvEngr said:


> TM, perhaps consider the Naked Boomerang dropouts for your next build. I like them better than the Paragons. No replaceable hanger. Available a full 0.25" thick too. Look here, about halfway down the page:
> 
> Naked Bicycles & Design | Get Naked | Swag


Thanks B;

That is a nice DO that I was unaware of. It would have fit the theme of my bike very nicely. Frankly, I think the PMW DO that I used is a bit too flimsy, and I felt that BEFORE this happened. In a perfect world where nothing odd ever occurs, they are likely just fine, and they are certainly absolutely gorgeous in form and workmanship. However, one of the reasons trail riding is so enjoyable is because it is utterly perfect in its unpredictability. Ride the same trail a zillion times, and as soon as you go into autopilot, BAM! "Where the "HE!! did that come from? That's never happened before!?!?!" In this imperfect world, I think PMW should consider offering an HD version.



> Sorry about the wierd lesson. Hopefully something was learned - though the random nature of the failure cause makes me wonder what. B


It's happened before, and will again. Another of my hobbies is driving Porsches on race tracks. I've owned and tracked the same car for 22 years. Last year up in Canada, my hood latch snapped. Just hammering along like I've done all these years, and DOINK. The hood pops up. ?????? Thank God for the safety catch! Back in my pit, my friends and I stood around scratching our heads, wondering if that had ever happened in the history of the 944? Well, it has now! Scheissen Happens!

I was most PO'd by the derailleur hanger snapping, those being an old sore spot. Lessons: Forget about 7075. Follow your gut and forget about replaceable hangers. Pay more attention to chainline next time, or just bail on the ride and cruise out!!


----------



## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

TM, the expedition model that I posted earlier in the thread is the heavy-duty model.


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

The Paragon's are available in "expedition" weight too. Cut from 6.35mm steel instead of 1/4in

 
But seriously the windows are not completely machined out.

*edit* taking comment to the plate v. hood thread.....smiley face is staying.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Are we ever satisfied?

It took me a while to put 2 & 2 together... but I always get there eventually. No, I'm not satisfied. The closed windows just ruins it all. Seems to me it would be fine to just make it thicker and leave them open. Yes, one could dink around and cut out the windows themselves. The joy of being able to do anything you want. I should have gone that route.......


...Next time.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Let's try this again...

Some twiddling & fiddling, and of course some new bits. Back out where it belongs.


----------



## petey15 (Sep 1, 2006)

:thumbsup: Absolutely gorgeous shot! Love how the blue in the bike picks up the blue in the jersey and glasses, too. Hey, I'm a chick, we notice that stuff, LOL. Glad you got it up and running again and were able to get out in the snow before it's gone!


----------



## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

Damn, that's a nice bike! I was bummed for you big time when you had your mini-catastrophe. Very glad all is well again. 

Drew


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Blue, eh?

What about the gloves... and the SKY?

Now running a PMW STEEL hanger. Needed a further tweak to the hanger/DO flange to get it down into the 
highest gear (8th), but all is now working fine. Someday I'll probably switch to short cage derailleurs too.


----------



## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

Accessories to match the bike LOL

That thing is just flat out cool, TM ... Glad you got it going so quickly, and can give us some proper trail shots :thumbsup:


----------



## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Heck yeah TM! 
You are a tall dude indeed. Those wheels look tiny! Like you made a 20" wheeled fatty. 
The Kroozer lives!


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Meriwether said:


> Heck yeah TM! You are a tall dude indeed. Those wheels look tiny! Like you made a 20" wheeled fatty. The Kroozer lives!


Ha!

I was thinking the same thing. All the pics of me riding 26ers - even being XLs - just make me cringe. I look like some kind of circus act. Like a bowling ball on a golf tee! There's one guy around here that is near my size, and when I see him on his 26er I think, man do I look that ridiculous? I mingle around these big bikes of mine - my RIP9, and Humvee & Kroozer Fatties - and they seem really huge. I mean, they take a LOT of room. Yet, when I see pics of myself on them, it looks completely normal and balanced.

Now I know what the average guy feels like on an MTB!

Fat Roolz...

-----------------------------------------------------------------

My mind is perking on the next one. Something totally different!

-


----------



## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

I think your "normal" bike would be at LEAST a Knard tire'd bike, or a 36er even. I hear 32" wheels are being though of as the next 'new' thing (even though there are Walmart bikes with them already or something). Like Zinn is to road bikes, there could be an opening for Sasquatch-sized bikes...!


----------



## wort (Jan 9, 2013)

TM, It is good to see this thing up and running! I agree with Meriwether--that thing looks kinda like a kids bike under you!


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Sheeeesh...

I'm beginning to wonder if this thing is cursed. Rode it around the parking lot this morning to test out a couple of things. Just fine. Noticed the tire was rubbing where someone goofed up and got the bridge in the wrong place because they calculated the wheels wro.... anyway.... Took it back out this afternoon. CHAIN SUCK. Every time, every 4-5 rotations. CONSTANT. If it was in Granny, it was SUCKIN! Rode it all day Sunday in granny plowing through 7" of wet snow. Not ONCE. Now? EVERYFREEKINTIME!

:madman:


----------



## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

TrailMaker said:


> Sheeeesh...
> 
> I'm beginning to wonder if this thing is cursed. Rode it around the parking lot this morning to test out a couple of things. Just fine. Noticed the tire was rubbing where someone goofed up and got the bridge in the wrong place because they calculated the wheels wro.... anyway.... Took it back out this afternoon. CHAIN SUCK. Every time, every 4-5 rotations. CONSTANT. If it was in Granny, it was SUCKIN! Rode it all day Sunday in granny plowing through 7" of wet snow. Not ONCE. Now? EVERYFREEKINTIME!
> 
> :madman:


Sorry to hear about the frame troubles. The aesthetics of the frame are there along with the fabrication skills. Perhaps the initial axle failure tweaked the frame the wrong way. I'm sure with the initial attention to detail that went into the build you will be able to see what went south and correct it.


----------



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

TrailMaker said:


> Sheeeesh...
> 
> I'm beginning to wonder if this thing is cursed. Rode it around the parking lot this morning to test out a couple of things. Just fine. Noticed the tire was rubbing where someone goofed up and got the bridge in the wrong place because they calculated the wheels wro.... anyway.... Took it back out this afternoon. CHAIN SUCK. Every time, every 4-5 rotations. CONSTANT. If it was in Granny, it was SUCKIN! Rode it all day Sunday in granny plowing through 7" of wet snow. Not ONCE. Now? EVERYFREEKINTIME!
> 
> :madman:


 Check the axle you just replaced to see if its binding or cassette is not freewheeling
easy or the jockey wheels are stuck


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

OK;

No need for my previous hysteria. Cooler heads prevailed today, and employed the time tested and yet highly secret and classified remedy for such maladies; chain lube. They don't tell you this at WalMart when you buy your bike, but the combination of sharp fresh chain rings, a stiff new chain, and repeated drenchings in a creek tends to cause chain suck in the days hence.

After months of staring at this design on the screen, and weeks since in the flesh, I just last night came up with some new ideas for tube configuration within this layout that should be quite remarkable. Not that it needs any help as is, mind you....


----------



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Ahhhhh.........OIL

The sooner you get a shorter caged rear derailleur the better. lol.

How did you miss that one?

Good to see the pictures of you riding your bike.

Eric


----------

