# Sherman Jumper vs Gold Label?



## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

I've been wondering for a while now, 
What are the differences (other than weight) between a Sherman Jumper and a Gold Label II? Is one any better than the other, or are they the about the same, or what? 

Another reason I was wondering other than pure curiosity was (if you didn't know) starting late next summer (with the help of a couple different jobs) I was planning on starting a slow build-up (and purchase) of a frame I designed, and one of the forks I was considering was a Sherman Jumper, and since those are becoming hard to find, I wanted to know if I should go ahead and grab one before it gets too late. 

Yes, I'm aware I just got a bike, but this other one wouldn't be ready to ride for about 2 years from now. I'm keeping my bruiser once I finally finish the custom bike, unless it breaks, slapping some gears on it and turning it into a huckable commuter bike.


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## todd_freeride (Aug 9, 2005)

by then you'll just want a different fork anyway. but the shermans were great, love mine.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

Sherman is one of a few that I've decided are the right size for the frame (or can be adjusted to the right size (80mm)) and that aren't too much money (500ish). On my list is a DJ2, Gold Label 2, and a Sherman Jumper, which is about extinct, so if the fork is a heck of a lot better than a Gold Label (I know it's better than a DJ2), I think I should pick it up ASAP. 

I know the Sherman goes for more, but it's being sold at Cactusbike.com for $500.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

I love Manitou and all, but 500 is way too much for a Sherman. 200 USD tops. Find a used 2003 Firefly with TPC+ dampening (not TPC). Those were the very best. Urban camo gives you additional steeze points.

Forget Marzocchi.

Rockshox Argyle is the way to go for a dedicated dirt jumper.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

I don't see your big stink about marzocchi in general! It does what it's supposed to do, and pretty darn well depending on your budget (eg: if you can afford a modded Z1 freeride). They make good XC forks, atleast. Maybe they screwed up on the Dirt Jumpers after 2003, I don't know. 

I really don't want to go used on my next fork, because I'd like to get something really nice brand new for once. 

an argyle is pretty sick, but too big for my frame. It's built for an 80 mm fork max. Check out the current plan, and see what I mean. 

What has anyone to say about a Gold Label? Are they worth the money? I kinda want a white fork anyway . . .


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

$500 for a Sherman?!?!? HAHAHA!!! man, they are discontinued, no longer produced.
Even gold labels, which I would consider nicer, are going for cheap these days, around $300...

I don't know how serious you are about your "custom project" going on, but why not just have brad throw on a slammed Z1 for you in your current dream state... that would go down to 65. hey, we all dream about the no holds barred bike, right?


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

I'm serious! A Z1 costs too much, anyway. I just realized this frame wouldn't work too well: you couldn't ever sit down pedal. You'd be scrunched up into a ball. 

I finally get that 500 is too much for a sherman, you don't have to reiterate that anymore.


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## Merkyworks (Jun 11, 2006)

dirtyharry said:


> I'm serious! A Z1 costs too much, anyway. I just realized this frame wouldn't work too well: you couldn't ever sit down pedal. You'd be scrunched up into a ball.
> 
> I finally get that 500 is too much for a sherman, you don't have to reiterate that anymore.


ummm well they make these really cool things called quick release seat post clamps so you can, like adjust your seat height VERY easy. you might want to look into on of those but you better hurry because they stopped making them in 2003 so they are getting harder to come by new and they are only $499.00 so not to worry.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

You can find plenty of Shermans in like new or new condition.

The Argyle is set at 100mm, and has a fairly low axle to crown height, probably lower than a lot of Marzocchis with less travel.

My Pike is shorter than my Drop-Off Comp. And the DOC was a 130mm fork.

Marzocchi is overpriced and overhyped. I've broken three of the four Marzocchi forks that I've owned. Not a single one has been warrantied. SSV dampening blows, HSCV hardly impressed me. They're tall, they're heavy, and they're not even that stiff.

2004 and 2005 DJs especially are outrageous heavy.


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

I've liked every single marzocchi that I've felt, and have never heard of one breaking around here.


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

*Used Sherman*

I am not a Manitou fan, but I have to admit that the Sherman Firefly I picked up used for $125 has been great. TPC+ works great, camo looks sweet... the travel mod that Will explains in other threads is bulletproof and simple. Plus at that price you don't mind doing a bunch of mods to it. I wouldn't dream of forking out $350+ for a fork and then chop it all to hell, but that's just me.

JMH



XSL_WiLL said:



> You can find plenty of Shermans in like new or new condition.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

JMH said:


> I am not a Manitou fan, but I have to admit that the Sherman Firefly I picked up used for $125 has been great. TPC+ works great, camo looks sweet... the travel mod that Will explains in other threads is bulletproof and simple. Plus at that price you don't mind doing a bunch of mods to it. I wouldn't dream of forking out $350+ for a fork and then chop it all to hell, but that's just me.
> 
> JMH


They're very easy to work on. You can change the shimstack around to give it a completely different feel.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

I've decided a Gold Label is the way to go. Pricepoint sells a Gold Label 2 for 350, new! 

An argyle, regardless of crown to axle height, is too much suspension for the frame. 

Merkyworks (yeah right, my LBS sells quick-release seat-post clamps cheap), by jacking up the seat, the whole idea behind the frame is defeated. It's meant to be crazy, CRAZY low standover and clearence (or just crazy low standover if you're doing barspins(with seat brought up to give your legs something to grab onto)). Here's the revised version: doesn't look as clean, but gives you some room to sit on the ride home. I forgot to adjust the seat stays for this, by the way.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

snaky69 said:


> I've liked every single marzocchi that I've felt, and have never heard of one breaking around here.


Look more closely. Lots of crown/steerer assemblies worked loose or creaky. Cracked crowns, cracked arches, cracked dropoouts, and bent steerers. Many of these were/are common problems. You'll really feel the SSV/SSVF dampeners working once you ride more aggressively. It's not smooth. And it's very spikey over the fast closely spaced stutters.

I think the 2006 Marzocchis are probably the best I've seen from them thus far. Least amount of problems. Cut down on weight, cut down on height, etc.

dirtyharry, the thing about QR levers was SARCASM. And you don't seem to grasp the idea of axle to crown heights or suspension. You have a much more thorough understanding than you did when you first joined MTBR, but for now, best not speak when you have no clue.

I think I've seen Argyle's for 399.


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## Merkyworks (Jun 11, 2006)

well at least will got it.... 

and after your revision to the frame geo. dirtyharry, well.....does anyone else think that it now looks like a evil imperial or even more like a addits cycles frame. so custom


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

I see where you say it looks like an imperial or an addict cycle frame now, but I hope you believe me when I say those had NO influence on the design. Also, my design is made of Cr-Mo. Imperials and Addicts are made of aluminum. And, neither the Addict or the Evil have the BB dip my frame does. 

I do have an idea of crown-to-axle whatever, and yeah, I guess an argyle could fit with one low enough. I've seen Argyles for 320ish, but they're the 302's. If I buy an argyle, I want the 409! I'll have to look into that . . . 

Will, when I said "too much suspension" I meant "too much suspension." I really don't want to run more than about 80 on the frame. Though, if I can find a good price on a white 409, ooh . . . Tough choice. 

This topic really went off faster than I expected. I kinda went off-topic. I honestly really just wanted to know if a new (or near-new) sherman is better than a new Gold Label, and if I should grab a new sherman when I've got some dough. That's been answered, in roundabout way . . .

Although, now that I've posted, any feedback on the overall look of the frame?


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

I think your logic is stupid.


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## trevorh (Jul 31, 2006)

Whos going to build this frame for you?


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

trevorh said:


> Whos going to build this frame for you?


I've heard rumors that dirtyharry's associated agency has been collaborating efforts with a private firm from Denmark that only does extremely specialized and innovative projects. They've been known to have dealt with NASA, Ferrari, and even the pirates of the carribean among others. Some lesser-informed laymen may know them as Lego. :thumbsup: damnit, I need to stay away from this computer.... it's frickin' rainin' out....


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

Nemesis is. What logic, will? I have no logic . . . Atleast nobody understands the logic I do have. . .


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## Merkyworks (Jun 11, 2006)

thats like a crazy person saying that everyone is crazy and they are the sane one. hahaahh


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

um, you haven't posted anything worth reading in this topic yet. OH well, forget it, you all don't really care at the moment. I'll just post stuff when I'm actually going to get the frame built within the next month or too.

Will, I've been thinking over what you said, and I've got a question: Do you actually KNOW the crown to axle on an Argyle? It would be helpful if you told me. Right now the frame's designed around a 455 mm crown to axle.


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

XSL_WiLL said:


> You'll really feel the SSV/SSVF dampeners working once you ride more aggressively. It's not smooth. And it's very spikey over the fast closely spaced stutters.


I'm very aware of that, hence why I would never take my dirt jumper 3's to a downhill course. Hydraulic lock is not something very nice to have in those conditions. But for the type of riding I do, which consists of relatively hard and very spaced out hits(jumping and some urban mixed in there) SSV is plenty fine for me. I'm still getting a pike along with the nemesis, but it's to cut down on weight and have more adjustability.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

AtoC height of a Pike at 95mm is roughly 475mm. No figures released on the Argyle, but it should be lower. 2006 DJ3 at 100mm is approximately 485mm.


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## J-dogg (Aug 7, 2006)

well, if you seriously thought about buying a sherman jumper for $500, you will be sorely ripped offf. i am picking one up soon for $120 used. and a nemesis tuned z-1 sport at 65 or 80 mm will cost you $500 as well. keep your bruiser for 4 years, ride it till it dies, and in he meantime, build up a bike. my brother rode his for 4 years, and nothing bent or broke on the frame. if you dont like the bike, then why did you buy it in the first place? an you probably dont want something with that frame youlike, like a black market riot, r a nemesis project. learn how to ride on your bruiser, then once you master what you need to know, shop around for a new bike. you know i rode that p.2 for 3 years with stock parts, you don't need a custom bike to get good, buy a lowering kit, adjust your geometry and you'll be set. or i'll sell you my bike. think about it if you want to spend a ton of money on a bike you probably won't like after about a year. give it some time bro, and think if you want to buy custom and learn on that, or buy a durable bike that will last you while you learn. no use thrashing a nice bike because you can't ride. if you know what i'm saying. calvin sold his nemesis and bought a usb because he didnt want to wreck a really nice frame in his learning curve, so he bought a beefier bike with less stuff to break. 14mm spaced, 110 axle and v brakes is the way to go, why do you think im sellin my bike and buying a geekhouse. end of story, sorry my rant is so long. cheers


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

By the time I get a new bike built up, my bruiser won't ride well enough for me or it will have died. Keep in mind it'll take atleast two years to build up the new bike, if i'm lucky. 

I bought the bruiser because it was such a frickin' good deal. It's doing me real well now, I just got up to a 4-5ish foot DJ yesterday, which was only my third time DJing. I'm going to keep it anyway, unless it breaks, because a dedicated Dirt Jumping bike doesn't exactly make the best commuter bike in the world. 

God damn it, don't compare a P. frame to a bruiser! The difference, however small in appearance, is a world of difference when riding. Virtual smack. I should really smack you for that, but if I said I would that'd just be talk.

I really shouldn't of brought this topic up so early in the build stage, so I really deserve anything you throw at me.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Difference in appearance between a p.bike and Bruiser is huge. Bruiser is ugly. P.bike is not. I would take a p.bike over a Bruiser, and probably a Jack, PHD, or GED over a Bruiser. PHD rides cool.


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## J-dogg (Aug 7, 2006)

ive ridden both of them because i had a p bike, and my brother had a bruiser. he now has a mob and i have a steelhead. i just think you may want to think over what you are doing with the frame, make sure it's what you really want to do, before welding it. because after that there is no turnng back. i liked my p bike enough, that i am dremeling the drop outs to fix it, stripping the paint off, and putting dual 24's and my components back on it. i didnt ant to cause an uproar on here, just puttin in my 2 cents. but look into a z1 sport from nemesis, they are also $500 and pretty nice. and to go with what will said, i cracked 2 marzocchi arches, and im only 13.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

For 07 there are no Z1 Sports, atleast no 500 dollar ones. 

Will, a bruiser and a P. frame don't look that different other than top tube to seat tube weld spot. Of course I'd take a P. frame over a bruiser, but the bruiser set up was a great deal, and a bruiser is a sick beginner bike. Of course, within the next year I'll no longer be a beginner. 
Also, an argyle I think will be too high.


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

Yeah, now I need to get the bushings replaced. At first I didn't care, but now after six months the bike is so tight and fun to ride that the loose headset sound coming from the bushings is finally annoying me. Time has shown that the fork was a good choice and I am happy with it, I want to get it back to new-ish.

JMH



XSL_WiLL said:


> They're very easy to work on. You can change the shimstack around to give it a completely different feel.


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

The argyle will be lower than the Dj2, that's for certain. There are probably ways to open it up and lower it, there is always a way


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

As soon as I get an Argyle for tuning, I'll see what can be done about a lowering kit.

The Bruiser and P.bike are completely different in appearance. Shape of tubing being more prominent. Older P.bike uses the centerfold TT and round downtube. Newer p.bike uses the hydroformed looking enduro style TT. More recent years of the P.bike has horizontal drops as well.

The Trek uses the square-ish downtube. And it's not quite as low slung as the P.bike.

If you think they look the same, you must not see very well.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

Well, of course the tubing looks different, but from a distance, that wouldn't be the distinguishing feature, now would it? It would be the standover (like you sort of mentioned) and the tob tube to seat tube weld spot! 

Will, you never answered my question about the Spring adjust and dampenening adjust.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

What question? Be a jerk and I won't answer questions.

How can you say the Argyle is too tall if there aren't even any figures on it yet?


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

That wasn't me being a jerk. If I offended you, I'm sorry, but as I can't actually speak to you so it's hard to tell. Can we please carry on with the assumption that everybody is aware a bruiser a P. look as different as a golf ball and a watermelon, and that we never had this conversation in the first place and possibly answer my question? 

The reason I think an argyle will be too tall is this: The frame is currently designed for about a 455 crown to axle (80 mm Gold Label or Sherman Jumper height). If an argyle is a bit lower than a pike @ 95, which is 475, I'm going to guess the argyle is no less than 465 @ 100 mm. That difference could screw up the geo. Of course, one of the downfalls to the free bikeCAD is that if you make the fork a different length, it screws up the tubing instead of leaving the tubing be so you can see the angles adjusted by the fork length.
I could always just build the frame to accept an argyle, but I think that would make the head tube jack up WAYYYY too much. Now, say the Argyle could be adjusted to 80 mm, well, I'd grab the 318 in a hurry (409 would be too hard for anyone to adjust I'm guessing, because of the air spring) and stick it proudly on the frame, let the set up collect dust for a while, dust it off, put on some new stuff, repeat, repeat again, and eventually ride out on my killer set up!


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Wait. Buy everything at once. Ride.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

I kinda have to go ahead and get the frame built . . . I've already talked to brad. I'd feel really bad if I made him wait two years to finally get my buisness. Who knows. If I can work out where I get 2 summer jobs I may be able to buy enough of the setup to ride. 

By the way, I've decided the set up will be basically all black and white. Black frame, crank, tires, rims, stem, and grips with white bar, seat, fork and a red E13 guard if I go with a Gold Label fork. 

Will, would you please explain to me why a fork would have dampening and spring adjust, or the differences between the two?


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

dirtyharry said:


> I kinda have to go ahead and get the frame built . . . I've already talked to brad. I'd feel really bad if I made him wait two years to finally get my buisness. Who knows. If I can work out where I get 2 summer jobs I may be able to buy enough of the setup to ride.
> 
> By the way, I've decided the set up will be basically all black and white. Black frame, crank, tires, rims, stem, and grips with white bar, seat, fork and a red E13 guard if I go with a Gold Label fork.
> 
> Will, would you please explain to me why a fork would have dampening and spring adjust, or the differences between the two?


dirtyharry, who knows, maybe you'll be waiting 2 years for that frame to be completed!? Brad seems to be a very busy man to be doing a custom order for you... but, I can't speak for him.
so, why don't you just buy an '04 sherman, and also buy all other 2004 components? does this sound kind of like a good idea to you now, or a bunk one? well, just think of how these '06 parts will look to you in '08, or 2010? stuff gets old and outdated, your desires continue to change. this long term investment you have going may not be the greatest idea. just run the bruiser until another deal comes your way down the road, that's my two cents...

and related to the main topic of this post... can anybody tell me if the 100mm Gold Label has the same axle to crown measurement as in the 80mm travel postion, just without travel limited? or is it actually 480mm a2c vs. 455? somebody please help clarify this for me...


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

BikeSATORI said:


> dirtyharry, who knows, maybe you'll be waiting 2 years for that frame to be completed!? Brad seems to be a very busy man to be doing a custom order for you... but, I can't speak for him.
> so, why don't you just buy an '04 sherman, and also buy all other 2004 components? does this sound kind of like a good idea to you now, or a bunk one? well, just think of how these '06 parts will look to you in '08, or 2010? stuff gets old and outdated, your desires continue to change. this long term investment you have going may not be the greatest idea. just run the bruiser until another deal comes your way down the road, that's my two cents...
> 
> and related to the main topic of this post... can anybody tell me if the 100mm Gold Label has the same axle to crown measurement as in the 80mm travel postion, just without travel limited? or is it actually 480mm a2c vs. 455? somebody please help clarify this for me...


I'm pretty sure that the 80mm Gold Label has the lower axle to crown. Since I'm pretty sure it spaces out the negative travel in order to lower the travel.

Spring adjust is preload. It doesn't do anything. It only makes the intiial response harsher. Dampening controls rebound and compression. It can also control bottom out.


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

> I'm pretty sure that the 80mm Gold Label has the lower axle to crown.


haha, yeah, I'm sure... I guess I should have phrased my question a little different... 
I am just wondering if there actually IS a difference in a2c between the 2, or like in the case of the Marzocchi's DJ, the oem 80mm DJ has the EXACT same a2c as the 100mm version of the same fork. I'm just trying to clarify if the 100mm GL has the same a2c as the 80 GL, or if it's extended up 25mm taller or something....
ok, at this point, I'm assuming they are the same, but I cannot rely on that assumption.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

I'm planning on buying a used crank and probably used hubs. That'd save me a bunch of money. As far as stuff getting outdated, that's fine with me. I'd just like to have a new fork, and whatever else is relatively cheap be new as well (BB, Stem, Bar, Seat, etc.)

Put it this way: the only way to really get the frame I want is to get it custom built myself. Not that I'm super experienced or anything, but I like the Cr-Mo, and the super-duper-off-the-hook 26 inch frames all seem to be aluminum. I basically want something similar to a geo-modified Imperial SL in overall shape, but more like a Steelhead or a Fall Guy in tubing shape. And I really want a trialsy DJ/urban bike, which my really low top tube, you can stick the seat down and have crazy clearance, or jack it up a bit and have something to hold onto for barspins. 

Once again, I was really dumb to bring this up so early, but I tend to think ahead a lot, and my plans are once again ahead of me. I am confident in saying, though, that by the time I have enough money for a new frame, custom or no, the bruiser will not be a good enough ride for me. Any day now I'm going to finally re-break the being able to wheelie and not being able to wheelie boundary, and by winter I'll be jumping on a larger jump. By spring, maybe an abubaca and a good manual? Wherever I'll be, it will be heavily progessed, and the bruiser will begin to make me sad. 

Is this just me, or was that overdramatic? 

Anyway, you get the point . . .


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