# Homemade Niterider batteries



## spacoli (Jan 15, 2004)

Has anyone made up there own batteries for there niterider lights?

Has anyone every taken apart the waterbottle type batteries?

I want to take apart my waterbottle battery and rebuild it with new batteries. 

How do these come apart? Do you have to cut them apart?

Are there any tricks or advice on doing this?


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

*Metroid wrote a FAQ...*

...but I don't know if it made it over to from the old forums.

The bottle opens just below the "neck". It's sealed with a brittle adhesive that breaks apart easily if you have something pointy to jam in there.










It's pretty simple to get 11 cells and solder them together, rewire the whole contraption and get it running again. Suggest you look to BatteryStation.com for the cells, and suggest you consider the highest capacity NiMH cells that'll fit.


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## spacoli (Jan 15, 2004)

*What size cells*

What size cells are they (c or d )?
I'm not up to date on electronics.
What do you mean buy highests capacity?
What number relates to the capacity is it the ah?
You just shouldn't go over the voltage (13.2) right?
Shouldn't you try to match the original specs ( my battery specs 4.0 ah 13.3 volt)
The battery specs on the battery staion are in mah, what is this?


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## damion (Jun 27, 2003)

*The FAQ is in the upper right hand corner of this page.*

It will answer all of these questions for you.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

Like the others said, the DIY Light FAQ is in the upper right hand corner of in any General Discussion post, including this one. I'm going to be adding a good battery building post with pics next time I build some since this specific topic comes up so often.

But to answer your questions...

Cell size 4/3A or FAT 4/3A which are slightly larger.

Capacity is rated in Amp Hours. That's the amount of time a cell can be run at a given current. It is often shown as milliAmp Hours. Milli means one thousandth of an Amp. 1 Ah = 1000mAh

You should stick with the 13.2V. That's 11 individual 1.2V cells. The cells are run in series so the voltage additive and current is constant. This is already overvolting the rated voltage of the bulb (12V) by 10% to give the best balance between brightness and bulb life.

If you go with the same capacity rating, you will get the same burn time. If you go higher, it will be longer, less and it will be lower. Although it may appear that going with the highest might be the best idea, however sometimes you can get lower capacity cells much cheaper. Also, the lower capacity cells are capable of producing much higher actual capacity. I've tested 3800mAh rated cells at over 5500mAh actual. The higher capacity cells aren't going to produce as much over their rated capacity as the lower capacity cells. If you get the 4/3 A cells, all eleven with fit nicely on the bottom of a standard waterbottle. If you get the FAT 4/3A cells, you might have to double stack them. Be sure to put some insulation between them if you do.

I have a bunch of 3800mAh 4/3A cells because they were on sale for less than half the price of the 4500mAh cells. These give 2+ hours with a 20W at full power. This works just fine for me.


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## spacoli (Jan 15, 2004)

*Thanks to all.....great info.....nm*

no message


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## cheetos316 (Jan 24, 2004)

*Can you use the original charge with this setup?*

Or do you have to get the chargers mentioned in the DIY FAQs page?


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

cheetos316 said:


> Or do you have to get the chargers mentioned in the DIY FAQs page?


You can PROBABLY use the same charger. No guarantees though. With the standard trickle charger, battery chemistry and capacity don't really matter much. The hard part with these is trying to guesstimate how long to charge for. In the case of the NiteRider smart charger, you can use these for both NiCad and NiMH. It will charger higher and lower capacity cells just fine but the time it takes to fully charge will be different.


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

*No problem...*



cheetos316 said:


> Or do you have to get the chargers mentioned in the DIY FAQs page?


If you've got the old style (constant current / "dumb" charger / wall wort) you've got to calculate a new charge time based on current output and battery capacity.

For instance, if you build a 4000mAh pack and have a 300 mA constant current charger, you'll divide 300mA into 4000mAh (4000/300 = 13 hours) then increase that time by 40% to account for inefficiencies during charging (13 hours x 1.4 = 18 hours).

If you have a Micro Brute or other Nite Rider "smart" charger, it detects charge level through a change in voltage as the battery peaks, and the charger will differentiate between NiCad or NiMH cells (peak behavior is different for each). So again, even if the new battery has a higher capacity than the old, the charger is oblivious and will simply take longer to complete.


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## ctxcrossx (Jan 13, 2004)

f*nætik said:


> If you've got the old style (constant current / "dumb" charger / wall wort) you've got to calculate a new charge time based on current output and battery capacity.
> 
> For instance, if you build a 4000mAh pack and have a 300 mA constant current charger, you'll divide 300mA into 4000mAh (4000/300 = 13 hours) then increase that time by 40% to account for inefficiencies during charging (13 hours x 1.4 = 18 hours).
> 
> If you have a Micro Brute or other Nite Rider "smart" charger, it detects charge level through a change in voltage as the battery peaks, and the charger will differentiate between NiCad or NiMH cells (peak behavior is different for each). So again, even if the new battery has a higher capacity than the old, the charger is oblivious and will simply take longer to complete.


If you have the dumb charger, can you upgrade to the smart charger? I have the Digital pro 12 (or whatever it is called, they grey one but with the blinking light guage). This has the old style connectors. I was told by a friend that some of the electronics for the smart charger were in the batteries. Is this true? Or can I just try to track one down on ebay or something? Thanks!

Chris


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

*I *think* that...*



ctxcrossx said:


> If you have the dumb charger, can you upgrade to the smart charger? I have the Digital pro 12 (or whatever it is called, they grey one but with the blinking light guage). This has the old style connectors. I was told by a friend that some of the electronics for the smart charger were in the batteries. Is this true? Or can I just try to track one down on ebay or something?


...the extra connector for the "smart" charger goes to a temp sensor in the battery. The temp sensor would act as a secondary cutoff, in case the battery gets over a certain temp while charging. *If* that proves to be the case, I don't know how difficult it would be to get the smart charger working. If you bypass the temp sensor, you're eliminating a safety mechanism that helps to ensure you don't burn your house down while you're sleeping.

If you go with a Maha C777 Plus II charger, the temp sensor is external (it's attached to a separate lead off the charger and affixes to the outside of the battery). You'll still need to rig up a different connection method since the Maha only comes with generic connectors, but that's no sweat (just cut the leads off your old wall chargers, solder them on to pig-tails that connect into the Maha). The benefit of the Maha is that it works on anything from one to 12 cells, so you can use the same charger on multiple battery packs.


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## spacoli (Jan 15, 2004)

*What diameter 4/3 A cells at the battery station*

What diameter 4/3 A cells did you use that fits perfect in a waterbottle?

Are they the:

4/3 A SIZE: DIA 17.0 mm X HT 66.0 mm

PART NO MFR COMMENT MAH GRAMS OZ PRICE 
*HR-4/3AUX Sanyo Ni-MH 3800 52 $ 4.50 
HR-4/3AU SALE w/tabs Sanyo Ni-MH 4000 55 $ 4.00 * 
VH-4000 SALE w/tabs Varta Ni-MH 4000 55 $ 4.00

Or the:

4/3 A SIZE: DIA 18.0 mm X HT 66.0 mm

PART NO MFR COMMENT MAH GRAMS OZ PRICE 
HR-4/3FAU Sanyo Ni-MH 4000 62 $ 5.50 
HR-4/3FAUX Sanyo Ni-MH 4500 62 $ 5.95

Seems like the 4000 mah are cheaper than the 3800 mah.

Should I go with the larger capacity?


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

spacoli said:


> What diameter 4/3 A cells did you use that fits perfect in a waterbottle?


I'd go with Sanyo, the largest capacity you want to afford.

17 or 18mm really doesn't make too much of a difference.

You'll appreciate a hot glue gun to construct your pack, something like so:

- O - O -
O - O - O - O
- O - O - O
- - -O - O

That shape fits pretty well into the interior of the water bottle. You'll have to "connect the dots" so to speak, connecting positive to negative to create the circuit. To finish if off, after gluing and soldering the pack toghther, I used insulating foam in a spray can to fill the bottle.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

I would just go with the Sanyo 4000mAh cells that are on sale unless you think the slight increase in burn time of the 4500mAh is worth paying 50% more per cell. Personally, I would look at that price increase as half way to another pack.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

ctxcrossx said:


> If you have the dumb charger, can you upgrade to the smart charger? I have the Digital pro 12 (or whatever it is called, they grey one but with the blinking light guage). This has the old style connectors. I was told by a friend that some of the electronics for the smart charger were in the batteries. Is this true? Or can I just try to track one down on ebay or something? Thanks!
> 
> Chris


That charger is nothing more than a timed trickle charger. It is supposed to shut off after a set period of time (probably around 14 hours) after being connected. It doesn't care if you hook up a fully charged battery. It is still going to charge for 14 hours.

With the old style connectors, there is nothing extra in the battery pack. Can't be with only two wires. A new fast charger will work fine as long as you get the same connectors. Jet Lites use the same connectors as the old NiteRider if you want to use one of their smart chargers or you can get a Maha and make your own connector cable like Nate did.


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## jimjo (Jan 25, 2004)

Homebrew said:


> I would just go with the Sanyo 4000mAh cells that are on sale unless you think the slight increase in burn time of the 4500mAh is worth paying 50% more per cell. Personally, I would look at that price increase as half way to another pack.


did you use a regular soldering iron to put it all together? or an adjustable temperature one? did you use the batteries with or without tabs?


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

jimjo said:


> did you use a regular soldering iron to put it all together? or an adjustable temperature one? did you use the batteries with or without tabs?


I have a solding iron with two different elements, one is a regular 23W, the other is high power 45W. If using cells with tabs, the 23W works fine. Without tabs, you need to use a high power iron. The key without tabs is to rough up the surface, use flux and get it done quick.


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

jimjo said:


> did you use a regular soldering iron to put it all together? or an adjustable temperature one? did you use the batteries with or without tabs?


Initially I bought batteries w/ tabs, but I didn't like them.

I ripped the tabs off and cleaned the tops of the batteries with a Dremel & sanding wheel.

Then I got a 40w (+/-) soldering iron with a chisel tip + required solder type (acid core? forgot which). Key is a hot iron for only a brief few seconds. Smaller irons will heat up the whole battery without getting the surface of the cell hot enough to complete the job.

From my local RC store, I picked up some "battery braid" which is just flat ribbon cable to connect the cells. I pre-tinned those, then sandwiched the braid between the cell and iron for a 5-count and let the solder heat up, wick in. When pulling the iron away, use a wood popsicle stick to hold the braid to the cell for a few second while it cools.

Lots of good references online from the guys that build their own RC car battery packs. Another key is to have the cells all glued together before beginning the soldering.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

A few words to avoid trouble.

If you look at f*nætik's picture and see the cells with the metal casing that look as if they are touching each other, look again. You will notice that the cardboard has been cut away (for whatever reason) on the outside of the cells and they are not actually touching each other metal case to metal case. I have had cells short out this way if you don’t insulate them from each other. I know you can get heat shrink tubing that will fit sub-c cells easily and I imagine you can get it for all different sized cells. I have used electrical tape if I didn’t have any shrink tubing handy.

If you can’t find the braided cable, you can use the type of wire sold in RC stores used to connect batteries to speed controls and motors. Novak and Deans are two companies that comes to mind that make a high quality wire suitable for this application. I use bars because they make them for the sub-c cells I have been using.

I also have a jig made for assembling sub-c batteries in flat packs, but I put together two or three cells in a row using the jig and then finish assembling them in a 5 cell hump pack holding them together with a couple of winds of electrical tape. Note: Mine are 5 cell packs because I have 6v light systems. 12v systems use 10 cells at 1.2v each and 13.3v systems use 11 cells.

The 4/3A cells seem like the power/price/size winner for bike lights. I use sub-c cells because I am so familiar (I have dozens of RC battery packs) with them and have the jig to help with assembly.

Then I take a section of an old innertube and stretch it over the whole battery pack.

Buy the “60/40” solder at Radio shack. It’s cheap and works perfectly (a half pound spool costs about $6 to $7). I like a ¼” chisel tip for good “on and off” in about three seconds soldering action that is still easy to maneuver. If you use a smaller tip, I find they don’t hold enough heat to do it quickly.

I could ramble on and on about chargers for way too long just to get you to this conclusion that is the logical choice for most people looking to upgrade from the simple low powered “brick” style chargers:

Unless you are willing to spend some substantial coin, just simplify your life and get one of the Maha chargers that will handle the voltage for your system. They are THE most simple, cost effective, relatively quick charging (mine charges @ 700mah) units available for nicd and nimh cells. Now, 700mah is not super quick (I have chargers that will charge at safely at 5500mah), but they are far better than the 200mah units that come with many light systems. AND they will cycle your packs as well. I’m going to stop now…

One other thing about making your own battery packs… It’s kind of addicting and hard to make just one.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

I got a related question....

Can I use my newer micro-brute charger (came with a storm HID) to charge my older 12v battery pack I made for my classic dual-beam? 

I made this pack just like f*naetik's with Sanyo 4000mah's. The battery works great, but I don't get consistent charges with my old nite-rider "dumb charger" - mainly just becuase I'm never in one place long enough to give it a full charge. Understand I will need at least some sort of adaptor- does nite-rider sell this, or any tips on fabricating one?

Thanks a ton!


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*13.2V can I make it from 11+ batteries?*

I know that to build a replacement for my 13.2V NR classic battery, I need 11 1.2V batteries. Could I set it up so I have 13 or 14 batteries, and add the last two or three in parallel or a series, which ever way as to not increase the voltage but to increase the burn time on my NR light? 
Forgive me for not knowing the technical terms. 
Thanks.


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

*Ooohh, I should point out...*



jeffj said:


> If you look at f*nætik's picture and see the cells with the metal casing that look as if they are touching each other, look again. You will notice that the cardboard has been cut away (for whatever reason) on the outside of the cells and they are not actually touching each other metal case to metal case. I have had cells short out this way if you don't insulate them from each other.


...that the batteries in the picture I posted of the open water bottle are the original Nite Rider batteries that I had already hacked at with a razor blade in the process of breaking the pack appart.

Those are C cells soldered end to end. I constructed my pack out of 4/3A cells which did not require stacking; the follow the side-by-side diagram illustrated in my O - O - O diagram in one of the previous posts.


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## spacoli (Jan 15, 2004)

*Niterider battery plugs ends*

Where could I get plug ends (old style niterider) that come from the battery and plug into the light cord / charger port of my old digital 12.

I want to build more than one replacement of my old battery?


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## Albuquerque Rockhopper (Aug 21, 2003)

I make RC battery packs all the time for my other hobby (electric RC airplanes), and found that these plugs work really well. They are press-fit plugs that also pull apart with just a bit of intentional force (good if your battery departs from your light), and they are designed for up to 80 amps of juice (maybe more, but thats the most I have put through them). Cheap for a set too.

I am going to set up my batteries to use these plugs so I can charge my standard NiMH niterider batteries from my computerized peak detecting charger.

https://www.wsdeans.com/products/plugs/ULTRA-PLUG2.jpg


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## spacoli (Jan 15, 2004)

*battery plugs*

Where could I get plug ends (old style niterider) that come from the battery and plug into the light cord / charger port of my old digital 12.

I want to build more than one replacement of my old battery?


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

FM said:


> I got a related question....
> 
> Can I use my newer micro-brute charger (came with a storm HID) to charge my older 12v battery pack I made for my classic dual-beam?
> 
> ...


Absolutely. You can use the new Microbrute for your old Classic battery. You just need a connector adapter cable available from NiteRider.

http://www.niterider.com/Merchant2/...ode=NR&Product_Code=6466&Category_Code=Access


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

*No*



piercebrew said:


> I know that to build a replacement for my 13.2V NR classic battery, I need 11 1.2V batteries. Could I set it up so I have 13 or 14 batteries, and add the last two or three in parallel or a series, which ever way as to not increase the voltage but to increase the burn time on my NR light?
> Forgive me for not knowing the technical terms.
> Thanks.


In theory parallel pairs would give you more burn time, there is absolutely no advantage to this. It will not charge properly. Besides, you get the same burn time from 2 separate packs and they are much easier to deal with. Just use the 11 cells.

If you are interested in using a higher voltage battery (more cells in series) you would need to build or buy some type of voltage regulator to feed a constant voltage to the light.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

spacoli said:


> Where could I get plug ends (old style niterider) that come from the battery and plug into the light cord / charger port of my old digital 12.
> 
> I want to build more than one replacement of my old battery?


Digikey recently added a good single ended cable to their catalog.

2.5mm x 5.5mm right angle connector with 18 AWG cable part # CP-2200-ND

http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T041/0253.pdf

While you are ordering, you might want to pick up some resettable fuses as well. I would probably use one of these:

part # SRP350-ND or part # SRP420-ND

http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T041/1130.pdf


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## alibi (Dec 30, 2003)

*Good eye Homebrew....*

That's a handy cable that, as far I know, has been previously unavailable anywhere (except those Radio Shack car lighter plug-ins that quickly disappeared).

Do you know of the existence of the female counterpart to that cable? or even a panel mount style? I cruised the Digikey catalog +/- a few pages form the one you referenced, but didn't see anything.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

alibi said:


> That's a handy cable that, as far I know, has been previously unavailable anywhere (except those Radio Shack car lighter plug-ins that quickly disappeared).
> 
> Do you know of the existence of the female counterpart to that cable? or even a panel mount style? I cruised the Digikey catalog +/- a few pages form the one you referenced, but didn't see anything.


For the female, depends on the application. If you just want a panel mount, I picked one up at Radio Shack. BTW, this one fits PERFECTLY jammed up into the bit valve of a water bottle just remove the stopper in the middle of the valve.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.a...name=CTLG_011_003_005_000&product_id=274-1576

If you need an inline connector, I'm sure Digikey has them you just have to dig around. I don't have time right now. Here is another source though...

http://www.action-electronics.com/acadaptr.htm

These folks have the cable with the proper connector as well but I was unsure of the gauge wire used. Looks okay but you never know.


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## cheetos316 (Jan 24, 2004)

*Difference in 12V and 6V systems?*

Was just looking at the Niterider site at the battery packs and noticed that they sell difference packs for different systems. There are 12V and 6V packs. Does it matter? According to the information from above, seems like everyone is just throwing 11 of the 1.2V 4/3A batteries together and getting the 13.2V. Would the 13.2V short out the systems that should take 6V. I have the old Digital Evolution and the site says that it should get the 6V battery pack.... Can I go for the 13.2V battery pack version? Would this affect the bulb life?

Thanks!


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

cheetos316 said:


> Can I go for the 13.2V battery pack version? Would this affect the bulb life?


You can't do this. You will blow your bulb immediately. As you can see from the chart below, as you increase voltage over nominal value, you exponentially decrease bulb life. They didn't go past 20% voltage increase in the chart because bulb life is already decreased about 90% at that point. Technobabble blah blah blah. Bottom line, just don't do it. Use a 6V battery for a Digital Evolution. The other folks were talking about the Nite Rider dual beam lights which take 13.2V batteries. The good news is the 6V packs are cheap. You can build a 5 cell 4500mAh pack for about $35 which will give about 2 hours burn time with a 15W bulb.










https://www.myra-simon.com/bike/lights.html#overvolting


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## cheetos316 (Jan 24, 2004)

*Couple more Q's*

I think I'm starting to understand this all..... a couple of things I'm confused about though - so when you put the batteries together, the voltage adds up? A 6V battery will be made of 5 1.2V batteries and a 13.2V battery will be made of 10 1.2V batteries? When you put the batteries together, the capacity doesn't add up? The 5 4000mAh batteries will not be 80000mAh but is still 4000 mAh? On batterystation.com I see there are D batteries that are 9000mAh. Could I use 5 of those to make a 6V battery? I'm thinking this would give me twice the burn time as opposed to 5 4000mAh batteries, but would it work?

As for the battery pack itself, where can I get the 2.5mm x 5.5mm right angle connector with the cable? On digikey.com, they only sell the connector, but it would be great if I can get the connector with some cable attached to it, preferably in coils too. What are the resettable fuses for? Where do they come into play?

Thank you so much for your help!


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## darkmatter (Oct 25, 2003)

cheetos316 said:


> I think I'm starting to understand this all..... a couple of things I'm confused about though - so when you put the batteries together, the voltage adds up? A 6V battery will be made of 5 1.2V batteries and a 13.2V battery will be made of 10 1.2V batteries? When you put the batteries together, the capacity doesn't add up? The 5 4000mAh batteries will not be 80000mAh but is still 4000 mAh? On batterystation.com I see there are D batteries that are 9000mAh. Could I use 5 of those to make a 6V battery? I'm thinking this would give me twice the burn time as opposed to 5 4000mAh batteries, but would it work?
> 
> As for the battery pack itself, where can I get the 2.5mm x 5.5mm right angle connector with the cable? On digikey.com, they only sell the connector, but it would be great if I can get the connector with some cable attached to it, preferably in coils too. What are the resettable fuses for? Where do they come into play?
> 
> Thank you so much for your help!


It all depends on how you wire the batteries. If you wire them in series you will be adding voltage and 5 1.2v 4000mah batteries will add up to 6v at 4000mah. If you wire them in parallel you will get a cell that is 1.2volts but will supply 20000mah of power.

Series is [- +}[- +}[- +}[- +}[- +} Then wires out to light from either end 6 volts 4000mah

Parallel:
|[- +}|
|[- +}|
|[- +}|
|[- +}| 1.2volts 20,000 mah
|[- +}| Wire out of the positive and negative terminal on the last battery here

Series parallel
|[- +}[- +}[- +}[- +}[- +}| 
|[- +}[- +}[- +}[- +}[- +}| 
| | 6Volt 8000mah

I am also interested in where the coil cable can be purchased.


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*making a 13.2V battery*

I had an idea for making an easy battery pack for my old NR classic, couldn't I just put 11 in a row in a PVC pipe the plastic water pipes with a spring at the bottom. Just like a big mag light?


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

*Yes, that would work...*



piercebrew said:


> I had an idea for making an easy battery pack for my old NR classic, couldn't I just put 11 in a row in a PVC pipe the plastic water pipes with a spring at the bottom. Just like a big mag light?


...just the same as those VistaLite Nightsticks, only really long.


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## EBasil (Jan 30, 2004)

I just put my home-built battery arrays into a widemouth water bottle, the type with the threaded lids. Performance sells them for 2 bucks at their "sales", usually. Ream the drink spout out with a drill bit, run the wires right through there and then seal off the top of the battery pack with spray foam.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

*Kirchhoff*

Voltage is additive in series but current stays constant. Current is additive in parallel but voltage stays constant. Capacity is just the rating of current over time.

For a quick electronics lesson...

http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/tutorials/ohm/Q.ohm.intro.html
http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/tutorials/ohm/Q.ohm.KVL.html
http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/tutorials/ohm/Q.ohm.KCL.html

For 13.2V, you need eleven 1.2V cells not ten. And if you read my previous post, Digikey does sell the 5.5x2.5 connector on an 6 ft 18awg cable...

2.5mm x 5.5mm right angle connector with 18 AWG cable part # CP-2200-ND

http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T041/0253.pdf (bottom of the page)

While you are ordering, you might want to pick up some resettable fuses as well. I would probably use one of these:

part # SRP350-ND or part # SRP420-ND

http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T041/1130.pdf


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## darkmatter (Oct 25, 2003)

*Kirchoffs Rules or Ohms Law*



Homebrew said:


> Voltage is additive in series but current stays constant. Current is additive in parallel but voltage stays constant. Capacity is just the rating of current over time.
> 
> For a quick electronics lesson...
> 
> ...


Hey Homebrew,

Thanks for the digikey tip, I found it in a previous post but was being a numbnuts about digging through their catalog. I am interested in the fused switch you add. Is this to avoid shorting out your battery or will it possibly throw when your battery is charged and begins to get hot due to increased resistance. It says that it provides noncycling protection but I am not really sure what that is. You seem very knowledgable on the subject; what is your background? I am a High School Physics teacher so I know the electricity stuff but I have limited practical experience.

You have been extremely helpfull on this subject and I would like to extend my gratitude.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

One thing to add on the coiled wires: An issue I have with them is that if I run them with lights of 20w or less they work fine, but if I try to run mine with both the 20w and the 15w lights running at the same time, the wire is not large enough to handle the demand for 35w of light output. The lights dim to the point of them both being about as bright as the 20w light by itself. If you are going to run more powerful lights, you need to find some heavier gauge wire (probably 16 or 14).


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

darkmatter said:


> Hey Homebrew,
> 
> Thanks for the digikey tip, I found it in a previous post but was being a numbnuts about digging through their catalog. I am interested in the fused switch you add. Is this to avoid shorting out your battery or will it possibly throw when your battery is charged and begins to get hot due to increased resistance. It says that it provides noncycling protection but I am not really sure what that is. You seem very knowledgable on the subject; what is your background? I am a High School Physics teacher so I know the electricity stuff but I have limited practical experience.
> 
> You have been extremely helpfull on this subject and I would like to extend my gratitude.


The fuse is for overcurrent protection (shorts). The ones I mentioned are specifically designed for rechargeable battery packs and all comercial packs have them. They reset themselves after the overcurrent condition is gone. They don't have anything to do with charging. You could add a thermistor to your pack but your charger would need to be setup for delta T charge termination and then you would need a 3 pin connector. Some chargers like the Maha universal chargers have a thermistor external to the pack to prevent overcharging but mainly use other voltage detection methods for termination.

I spent 6 years as an electronics technician in the Marine Corps. I have since moved on to engineering, although industrial engineering not electrical. Then I spent too much time reading about this stuff on the internet while bored at work. It satisfies my technogeek urges and applies to bikes. What more can one ask for?


----------



## spacoli (Jan 15, 2004)

*Power inverter size for charging 2 batteries*

Since it seems like your the tech here, I got a question.
I would like to charge batteries from my truck while camping.
What size power inverter would I need to charge two 13.2 (at the most) batteries at once?


----------



## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

*No need for an inverter IMHO*

Why bother with an expensive power inverter?

The better battery chargers (not necessarily made for bike lights) run off of 12v anyway.

Here is one that I think might suit you well that runs about the price of an inverter ($65) and runs off of AC or DC and will charge 2 battery packs at once up to 14.4v each. I'm told that the 2500mah limit is not really so, but check it out for yourself.

http://www.hobby-warehouse.com/wapfduacpech.html

There are many others out there. A good hobby store should be able to help you.

Even the Maha can use a cigarette lighter adaptor.


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

jeffj said:


> Why bother with an expensive power inverter?
> 
> The better battery chargers (not necessarily made for bike lights) run off of 12v anyway.
> 
> ...


Inverters don't cost that much especially on eBay (maybe $20). The RC DC chargers are setup to attach directly to a car battery and not the cig lighter through the cars wiring. The Maha may have a cig adapter but it doesn't charge higher voltage batteries with it. The simple voltage regulator it uses only allows you to charge the higher voltage packs with a 18V-22V input. The NiteRider 13.2V Microbrute has a buck-boost switching regulator to allow it to charge higher voltages with the standard 12V input. That's why the 13.2V cost about $20 more than the 6V.

Anyway if you want to go the inverter route, you really don't need anything too powerful even for 2 chargers. Most chargers only draw 1Amp-hour. It's kinda funny that all chargers actually run off DC so you would be converting the DC battery to AC then through a AC to DC wall wort to a DC charger. It's not the most efficient method but might be the simplest.


----------



## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

I have made a couple of cigarette lighter cords for my chargers so I can charge while driving. I use Deans plugs to connect them to the lighter cord. Make sure that the plug and wiring is designed to handle the amp load regardless of whether you use an inverter or a 12v charger. I have found plugs rated as high as 10 amps with integrated fuses. If you run a 10amp plug at 10 amps, it will get hot and possibly fail. My point being that you should get a plug rated at least 30% higher than the demand you will place on it. I can run two of my chargers at 3 to 3 ½ amps each with the 10a plug and it will only get a little warm at most. If I run them at 8 to 10 amps, they get hot, REAL HOT at 10 amps (don’t do it).

Also make sure that any charger you use is designed to run at 12v and at up to 15v because your car’s alternator will put out up to 14.6v while it’s running and some chargers will not operate at voltages significantly higher than 12.0v.


----------



## cheetos316 (Jan 24, 2004)

*Pointes on soldering?*

Batteries are on order and now I need to get me a soldering iron. I've looked around on ebay. Does it matter what kind of soldering iron I get? The cheap ones are the pencil type with about 30 watts and the more expensive ones are the gun type with trigger feed. What kind of solder should I be using? I got batteries with and without tabs. How do I use the soldering iron? I'm assuming I should practice on something else before trying to solder the batteries together.... Also, how do I attach the wires to the batteries? By soldering as well? If so, do I have to protect or cover the joint between the wire and the tab with something like electrical tape?

Thanks again for the wonderful help!


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

For soldering directly to cells, you want a higher than standard iron but a gun is not necessary. I have the type that is just the handle with replaceable elements. For this type of work, I use a 45W with a 1/4" chisel tip. You will want to rough up the surface of the cells to get good solder adhesion. It doesn't work very well on the smooth chrome plating. A few strokes on some sandpaper is fine. For solder, any electronics solder will work (I wouldn't recommend plumbing solder). Silver solder will be a bit stronger. Rosin core is easier to use. You might want to get some additional liquid or paste rosin flux. I would stay away from the acid flux (very corrosive) and stick with rosin though.

The key to soldering is good heat transfer. Everything should be clean, keep your tip clean, tin your leads, flux is your friend. Don't hold the iron on the cell too long. If it doesn't melt right away, it's not getting good heat transfer. Clean everything and try again. Good solder joints should be clean and smooth. You might find that you don't have enough hands to do this. I use a vise to hold the cells and forceps to hold the wire so I have my hands free to solder.

Depending on how you arrange your pack, you may or may not need to wrap the cells. You just want to make sure the cells aren't going to touch each other.

You might try to google up on soldering techniques before trying on your cells.

Good luck.


----------



## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

*More Info...*

Lots of really good info in this thread! A couple of suggestions for stuff I didn't see mentioned:

Protection - if you are making your own battery packs they need physical, electrical and thermal protection. The physical may be tape, heat shrink, waterbottles etc., but you may also find some other products useful. Really thin gasket paper is tough enough to insulate when soldering and prevent shorts. Parchment paper will also work. Electrical protection may be old-style fuses, or the resettable kind. Thermal protection is required to prevent cells from overheating and exploding. Two types of thermal protection are commonly used - one is resettable and the other self-destructs (before your battery does...). The thermal reset and overcurrent protection is available in a single package from various manufacturers, but I like to use the Texas Instrument Klixon type set at 70 deg. If you intend to rapid charge without cell temperature detection make sure you have the thermal protection! They cost about 2 bucks each, and you should order them when you purchase your batteries...

Build on...


----------



## JimSpokes (Mar 30, 2004)

*Will the 2.5mm x 5.5mm plugs work on the old 6v NR lights also?*



Homebrew said:


> Digikey recently added a good single ended cable to their catalog.
> 
> 2.5mm x 5.5mm right angle connector with 18 AWG cable part # CP-2200-ND
> 
> ...


Will the 2.5mm x 5.5mm plugs work on the old 6v NR lights also?


----------



## alibi (Dec 30, 2003)

*Yes...*

The right angle male connector with twin wires fits perfectly into older NR lightheads, such as the Cyclops, Trail Rat, Digital Pro 6 etc. It would be all you need to wire up to a new homemade battery pack, as it's about 6 feet long.

Since this is bumped up, I'll take the opportunity to say "thanks Homebrew" for that Action Electronics link. They sell the same right angle connector with wires (the wire is 18 gauge; a little fragile, but probably OK), and they also have a few different styles of female connectors that are very handy for homemade setups.


----------



## jimjo (Jan 25, 2004)

Homebrew said:


> The fuse is for overcurrent protection (shorts). The ones I mentioned are specifically designed for rechargeable battery packs and all comercial packs have them. They reset themselves after the overcurrent condition is gone. They don't have anything to do with charging. You could add a thermistor to your pack but your charger would need to be setup for delta T charge termination and then you would need a 3 pin connector. Some chargers like the Maha universal chargers have a thermistor external to the pack to prevent overcharging but mainly use other voltage detection methods for termination.
> 
> I spent 6 years as an electronics technician in the Marine Corps. I have since moved on to engineering, although industrial engineering not electrical. Then I spent too much time reading about this stuff on the internet while bored at work. It satisfies my technogeek urges and applies to bikes. What more can one ask for?


where is the overcurrent protection in existing packs? I currently have a nite rider classic that im rebuilding a battery for and was wondering where id find it and if i really need to add it. additionally, when soldering, what is the chance that the batteries can get damaged by overheating them while soldering?


----------



## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

*The stock fuse...*



jimjo said:


> where is the overcurrent protection in existing packs? I currently have a nite rider classic that im rebuilding a battery for and was wondering where id find it and if i really need to add it. additionally, when soldering, what is the chance that the batteries can get damaged by overheating them while soldering?


...might look like a flat solder connection between two cells, possibly with some white plastic on it.


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

There are two common types used, PTC resettable fuses and themostat circuit breakers. Both use different technology. PTC will heat up and increase resistance as current goes up for overcurrent protection then cool down and decrease resistance when the condition goes away. The thermostat senses heat and current and will completely break the circuit if either goes too high. These will also reset themselves.

PTC:









Themostat:


----------



## jimjo (Jan 25, 2004)

Homebrew said:


> There are two common types used, PTC resettable fuses and themostat circuit breakers. Both use different technology. PTC will heat up and increase resistance as current goes up for overcurrent protection then cool down and decrease resistance when the condition goes away. The thermostat senses heat and current and will completely break the circuit if either goes too high. These will also reset themselves.
> 
> PTC:
> 
> ...


what are those tabs you are using between the batteries??


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

jimjo said:


> what are those tabs you are using between the batteries??


It's a commercial pack with spot welded tabs. These are the same tabs that are optional on cells when you buy them from Battery Station. I prefer to go without tabs and just use desoldering braid to connect adjacent cells. It's flat, comes pretinned and fluxed, and works fine.


----------



## rs3o (Jan 12, 2004)

Homebrew said:


> It's a commercial pack with spot welded tabs. These are the same tabs that are optional on cells when you buy them from Battery Station. I prefer to go without tabs and just use desoldering braid to connect adjacent cells. It's flat, comes pretinned and fluxed, and works fine.


Does it matter where the fuse or circuit breaker is placed? It just needs to interrupt the circuit, right?


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

rs3o said:


> Does it matter where the fuse or circuit breaker is placed? It just needs to interrupt the circuit, right?


I'm not sure it matters but these packs have the PTC between the first two cells on the positive side and the thermostat between the last two cells on the negative side. You definitely would NOT want to have these devices in parallel between the same cells though. Other than that, I think it would be okay.


----------



## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

*Series Circuit*



rs3o said:


> Does it matter where the fuse or circuit breaker is placed? It just needs to interrupt the circuit, right?


If the cells are in series and you are using an overcurrent device then you are correct that it doesn't matter where it goes. If you are using a thermal device it must be close or touching the cells to protect from high temperature. Paralleling the batteries requires protection on a 'pack' basis and steering diodes (as a minimum).

I'm looking at the pictures (and I really can't tell for sure), but it looks like the thermal (bullet shaped device) protector looks like a non-resettable one? 

Cheers


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

airman said:


> I'm looking at the pictures (and I really can't tell for sure), but it looks like the thermal (bullet shaped device) protector looks like a non-resettable one?


Could be but if it's gets to be 90degrees centigrade it doesn't matter much. I would MUCH rather the fuse pop than the cells.


----------



## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

You're absolutely right about the poping cells, but I'm confused why most of the stuff in the thread is focusing on overcurrent protection rather than the combo overcurrent/thermal resettable. I didn't think the PTCs offered decent cell protect for high temperature (75C +)... FWIW anyone using fast charge with the Sanyo cells should be careful about that... 

Just comparing notes...

Thanks


----------



## jvossman (Jan 12, 2004)

*anybody try their own homemade hid lights?*

Anybody?

Thxs

-jv


----------



## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*airman do you have to shrink wrap each cell?*

I'm confused on the purpose of shrink wrapping. Could you elaborate.
Where do you buy the protectors you were speaking of, from TI?
Thanks.


----------



## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

*More Info...*



piercebrew said:


> I'm confused on the purpose of shrink wrapping. Could you elaborate.
> Where do you buy the protectors you were speaking of, from TI?
> Thanks.


Shrink wrap is a really slick way to finish off the battery pack to provide some protection and pysical strength. Even though the wrap is fairly thin, it provides some rigidity for the assembly. I have used plain black electrical tape before and if you know what you're doing, it will work fine (several layers wrapped tight alternating patterns).

See http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/battery-mm.htm for info on the protectors. I got mine from TNR Technical when I bought a quantity of batteries some time ago. I think the Battery Station is supplied by TNR so they should have access to the same products... The 4mm ones are fine - I use 75 degree ones and have't blown out a cell yet. I rapid charge mine and occassionally the protector trips out because the cells get very hot at the end of the charge cycle.

The professionally built packs that I have seem use two forms of protection (aside from the wrap) - one is resettable (Klixon 4mm) and the other is a failsafe self destruct fuse. You decide what you want. Sounds like most home builders do their own thing without any serious problems... If you trickle charge the cells, you will probably never need the high temperature protection (never say never?)...

So... TNR or the Battery Station should be able to provide you with everything - tabbed cells, shrink wrap, thermal protectors... They will probably assemble the 5 cell packs for a nominal fee (its worth it unless you enjoy the construction part). If you want just the Klixons from an alternate supplier, use the contact info from the web link and take it from there. They are worth less than $2 each.

Cheers


----------



## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*If I plan on putting it in a water bottle...*

do I need to shrink wrap the batteries? Also...
"t 70 deg. If you intend to rapid charge without cell temperature detection make sure you have the thermal protection! They cost about 2 bucks each, and you should order them when you purchase your batteries..." 
W/O temp detection- you mean on your charger?
Bc Thermal protection is the fuse you are talking about right.

Couldn't find anything on the batterstation website about fuses? 
Anyone know where they are? 
Thanks.


----------



## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

*Wrap up...*



piercebrew said:


> do I need to shrink wrap the batteries? Also...
> "t 70 deg. If you intend to rapid charge without cell temperature detection make sure you have the thermal protection! They cost about 2 bucks each, and you should order them when you purchase your batteries..."
> W/O temp detection- you mean on your charger?
> Bc Thermal protection is the fuse you are talking about right.
> ...


IMHO you need to wrap the batteries somehow to secure them. Electrical tape and shrink wrap are two alternatives that will work. There are other ways also...

Yes, I mean temperature detection in the charger. But for two bucks, just put the sensor in... The protection I recommend is the Klixon automatic reset. It covers battery overtemperature and short circuit. The fuse is up to you. A fuse is a one-shot device. Self destruct. In a battery pack it's role is to prevent catastrophe. Your call...

References:

http://www.batterystation.com/nicads.htm

http://www.batterystore.com/ - TNR Technical (their link seems to be down now...) TNR Technical may be changing their web site to :

www.tnrtechnical.com (under construction)

The Battery Station never offered me the cell protection - TNR did. You should probably ask about it specifically. To find an alternate supplier you will have to do some digging...

Good Luck


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

piercebrew said:


> do I need to shrink wrap the batteries? Also...
> "t 70 deg. If you intend to rapid charge without cell temperature detection make sure you have the thermal protection! They cost about 2 bucks each, and you should order them when you purchase your batteries..."
> W/O temp detection- you mean on your charger?
> Bc Thermal protection is the fuse you are talking about right.
> ...


For a water bottle battery you don't need shrink wrap. Attach the cells together in pairs with electrical tape. Solder one end of the pair together and 6-8" of wire on the other end. See picture below. This makes it easy to slide them down the mouth of the water bottle and are easily arranged so they all fit on the bottom in a single row. I then use Great Stuff to fill the space. Be careful with the Stuff because it is impossible to get off your hands (wear gloves) and very hard to deal with once it's cured. It expands A LOT so you don't need much. I then use silicon sealant on the lid.


----------



## spacoli (Jan 15, 2004)

*My battery is shot*

A month ago I posted the original question, not even thinking it would be a on going thread for a month. 
I have learned alot. 
Just got word back from niterider that my battery is shot and there sending it back to me.
They tried to sell me a new one for a discount $125., I said no just send it back.

So I guess I will take what I learned and build my onw new battery at 1/3 of the cost.

Here is my problem that I told nite rider service I was having (sorry it's long)........................
I'm going to try to describe what my light is doing or not doing the best I can.

After getting this back from the last service 1/21/04, I turned the light on everything seemed to work so I put it away.

I got it out to use around the beginning of March, charged it. After charging LED fuel gauge read full charge, I turned the light on the economy mode (6/9/12 watt), it went to reserve mode (6watt) within seconds and the LED gauge read reserve mode. So naturally I thought the battery was dead or did not charge properly.

I started to charge it again. After over night, the LED charge lights did not move off of one LED (1/4). I turned the light on the economy mode (6/9/12 watt), it went to reserve mode (6watt) within seconds and the LED gauge read reserve mode again. I decided to leave it on reserve and see how long it would stay on until it went out. It burned for an hour until I decided to turn it off. The reserve is supposed to only last 5-30 min. according to the manual.

I decided to try something else. After it had burned for an hour in reserve mode, I disconnected the battery and then reconnected it, it did the 3 second diagnostics check like the manual says. I then turn the light on normal mode (32 watts), the battery gauge read one LED light (1/4) and I burned the light on 32 watts for 40 min., until it went to reserve mode like its supposed to. That told me the battery did charged and something else must be wrong with the electronics.

This weekend I decided to try to charge it before I send it to get fixed and this is what it did.

It showed that it was charging, the LED lights kept stepping up. When it was at 4 LED lights for a while and then it went down to 1 red LED light blinking like it was at the beginning of the charge. I decided to see what it did if I would turn it on. It did the same as I described above, in both economy and normal modes. I burned it at 32 watts and it lasted well over 50 min. I will charge it before I send it.

So that is what it is doing or not doing how ever you want to look at.

After all of this they said my battery is dead. (it is over 7 years old but used very little)

I do have a few questions if I'm going to build my own battery......

I have one of the original niterider digital 12 nitehawk.

I plan on getting these batteries at the battery station like you (homebrew) recommended.

4/3 A SIZE: DIA 17.0 mm X HT 66.0 mm
HR-4/3AU SALE w/tabs Sanyo Ni-MH 4000 55 $ 4.00

This seams to be the best set up.

I want to be able to use my original charger ( standard overnight that came with the light),
this charger has a tag on it to only use with nicad batteries. Can I use this with the ni-mh batteries listed above or should I get nicad ?

If I use the battery configuration the you posted, can I use the resettable fuses and/or themostat circuit breakers that is in my old battery now.

Is it possible in any way that these resettable fuses and/or themostat circuit breakers are bad on my old battery? If so or if in question what should I get.

If so I should just wire it up like it was in the old battery?

Sorry this is so long........thanks to everbody for all the great post and advice


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

My buddy had the same issue with his NiCad NR NiteHawk. You are supposed to hook the charger into the battery through the light and the light had some electronics to do *whatever*. He lent it to me for a 24 hour race, it worked the first night lap then crapped out on me on the next night lap. It wouldn't take a charge with the NR charger. When I got home, I charged it up with my Jet smart charger (auto discharge before charge for NiCad). Charged up fine. The battery fuel gauge circuitry in the light must have been the problem. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if your battery was fine as well (even after NR "tested" it). If you battery was indeed kaput, it wouldn't burn that long at 32W. If the battery is okay as I suspect, that leaves the digital crap in your light is the likely source of your problem. I'm pretty sure all the electronics are in the light and the only thing in the battery is probably a PTC fuse (which you can reuse). I would fully investigate your light with a known good battery to make sure you aren't replacing the wrong parts.


----------



## spacoli (Jan 15, 2004)

*low voltage/unstable battery*



Homebrew said:


> My buddy had the same issue with his NiCad NR NiteHawk. You are supposed to hook the charger into the battery through the light and the light had some electronics to do *whatever*. He lent it to me for a 24 hour race, it worked the first night lap then crapped out on me on the next night lap. It wouldn't take a charge with the NR charger. When I got home, I charged it up with my Jet smart charger (auto discharge before charge for NiCad). Charged up fine. The battery fuel gauge circuitry in the light must have been the problem. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if your battery was fine as well (even after NR "tested" it). If you battery was indeed kaput, it wouldn't burn that long at 32W. If the battery is okay as I suspect, that leaves the digital crap in your light is the likely source of your problem. I'm pretty sure all the electronics are in the light and the only thing in the battery is probably a PTC fuse (which you can reuse). I would fully investigate your light with a known good battery to make sure you aren't replacing the wrong parts.


I just talked to niterider service, they said the battery voltage was 11. something (should be 13.2v) and basicly that is what caused all the other malfunctions with the light. 
They said the battery was "unstable".
Does this make any sense?
They also said their ni cad charger is not compatable with ni mh batteries, so I probally can't use it if I build a ni mh battery pack.


----------



## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

Don’t use the nicd charger on the nimh. You’re asking for trouble from them getting too hot because they will be overcharged before the charger shuts off.

This is what it sounds like to me with respect to your battery. You may have two bad cells. The rest of them charge. Your light reads the 9 good cells at about 11v which would be nearing discharged if it were 11 good cells. The light burns a long time in this reserve mode because you have 9 cells charged to capacity instead of 11 cells nearing the end of a discharge cycle. Bottom line, all things considered, your battery pack should be replaced. At 7 years old, it wouldn’t be wise to even replace the bad cells if you could because the others are probably not far behind.

Here’s what I would do if you really like the light. Get two NiMh packs made and buy a charger that works for NiMh at 13.2v. This is going to cost a little bit of coin, so you have to decide if you might be better off saving up for a newer light system that comes with a higher capacity battery (nimh instead of nicd) and a charger that works with nimh.


----------



## spacoli (Jan 15, 2004)

jeffj said:


> Don't use the nicd charger on the nimh. You're asking for trouble from them getting too hot because they will be overcharged before the charger shuts off.
> 
> This is what it sounds like to me with respect to your battery. You may have two bad cells. The rest of them charge. Your light reads the 9 good cells at about 11v which would be nearing discharged if it were 11 good cells. The light burns a long time in this reserve mode because you have 9 cells charged to capacity instead of 11 cells nearing the end of a discharge cycle. Bottom line, all things considered, your battery pack should be replaced. At 7 years old, it wouldn't be wise to even replace the bad cells if you could because the others are probably not far behind.
> 
> Here's what I would do if you really like the light. Get two NiMh packs made and buy a charger that works for NiMh at 13.2v. This is going to cost a little bit of coin, so you have to decide if you might be better off saving up for a newer light system that comes with a higher capacity battery (nimh instead of nicd) and a charger that works with nimh.


I have a newer digital 12 (my son's) that has a ni mh battery and charger. If I build a ni mh battery could I use this charger? 
The original battery spec on my ni cad battery is 2800mah. Could I get ni cad at this capicity that would fit in my water bottle pack?


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

spacoli said:


> I have a newer digital 12 (my son's) that has a ni mh battery and charger. If I build a ni mh battery could I use this charger?
> The original battery spec on my ni cad battery is 2800mah. Could I get ni cad at this capicity that would fit in my water bottle pack?


Definitely, you can use the newer NiMH charger. It will be the same voltage and same chemistry as the pack you would be building. If it's convenient to use your son's charger, go with that. I'm not convinced you would have a problem with your charger though. Afterall, it's just a trickle charger and the fuel gauge built into the light is chemistry independent. However, a NiMH specific charger would be the safer bet. I would try to stick with NiMH if you can. They are lighter and have much higher capacities available.

I'm a big fan of smart chargers and would highly recommend getting one. Takes the guesswork out of it. Building a smart fast charger that works from the car battery for less than $20 is going to be my next project to tackle. Don't hold your breath though.


----------



## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*where can I get these fuses?*

Anyone? These websites listed above don't work.


----------



## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

*Contact TNR @*



piercebrew said:


> Anyone? These websites listed above don't work.


Contact Pat @ TNR Technical:

[email protected]

They will be more than happy to help. I suggest 4mm rated 75 deg. (only a suggestion...)

Cheers


----------



## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*The Great Stuff?*

What is this Great stuff? Is it light weight? My old NR battery weighs a ton. Looking to fill with something light weight. 
thanks
Where can I get some?


----------



## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

*Great Stuff, or...*



piercebrew said:


> What is this Great stuff? Is it light weight? My old NR battery weighs a ton. Looking to fill with something light weight.
> thanks
> Where can I get some?


Try Home Depot. They probably have more than one brand of this kind of foam. Use the low expanding type. It is very light. It is also tricky to use and can make quite a mess...

As an alternative, cut a small foam disk out of some old packing material and drop it into the bottom of the bottle. Put your batteries into the bottle. Use the foam packing cord available at the hardware store for sealing around windows and door frames (grey closed cell foam comes in 1/2, 5/8 etc. diameters) and pack it into the bottle around the batteries. This worked fine for me as I had the batteries wrapped and secured when I put them into the bottle. It is also easily removable. I will not use 'Great Stuff' anymore because it is just a PITA.

The objective is to protect the batteries from impact and vibration. Do it what ever way is most convenient and effective for you...

Good Luck


----------



## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*Jet battery charger*

Homebrew,
If I'm right I think you have a Jet light. As do I. I'm planning on using that smart charger to charge my new battery. How do you know what is positive coming out of the charger? And where did you get an adapter to fit into the charger? It looks like something I could pick up at Radio Shack but I'm not sure. Thanks a lot.


----------



## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

I do have a Jet. The center pin on the charger is positive and make sure the center pin on your battery plug or jack is also. For a flat pack, you can just use one of these...

2.5mm x 5.5mm right angle connector with 18 AWG cable part # CP-2200-ND

http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T041/0253.pdf

You can plug that directly into the Jet charger.

For a waterbottle battery, you can either use the same cord or just use a panel mount jack, I picked one up at Radio Shack. This one fits jammed up into the bite valve of a water bottle just remove the stopper in the middle of the valve and maybe a zip tie to secure it. Just take off the outer nut.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.a...5Fid=274-1576

If you need an inline connector, I'm sure Digikey has them you just have to dig around. Here is another source though...

http://www.action-electronics.com/acadaptr.htm

Then you can use your Jet power cord to connect the battery to the charger.

Just to make sure, you can only use a 13.2V charger with a 13.2V battery and 6V charger with a 6V battery. You can't mix and match. Universal chargers like Maha can accept a range of voltages to accomodate both.


----------



## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*which is positive?*

Homebrew,
I think I have those sam batteries. My question is which side is positive? 
Also the way I was planning on putting my battery together is...
Have it set up for my OLD NR classic. With the old connections.
So reuse the connection from the old battery so I can just plug in the battery to the light like it was new male to female. And using the old battery charger connector that attaches to the battery to make that into an adapter that will plug into the Jet charger. So this would be a wire that would have a NR battery connection on one side (that attached to the new NR battery) and (then cut it from the charger of the NR charger) on the other side have a connection that would plug into my Jet charger. 
What do you think? Is there anything I should becareful of? 
Or should I use my old NR charger which is a trickle charger. I would rather not bc the Jet is set and forget.
I do have the "fuses" that were mentioned in one of the above posts, that will open the circuit if they reach 70 degrees I believe. 
Any input would be helpful.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

On each cell, there is one side that has the metal fully exposed and one side that has a paper ring around the outside exposing only the center. The fully exposed section (right side of the picture) is negative and the smaller exposed section is positive (left side of picture). You'll also notice there is a ridge around the outside on the positive side. And as a triple check, you can hook up a voltmeter. If you have the leads connected correctly the voltage will read positive and if they are switched it will read negative.

The old Nite Rider connectors are the same as the Jet connetors and you can plug those right into the Jet smart charger. I'm not sure what adapter you are referring to.


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## cheetos316 (Jan 24, 2004)

*Question about thermistors (any on Digi-key?)*

I'm looking to buy the thermistor for my battery pack. Is there any from Digi-Key? I have no idea what I'm looking for. It gives me the filters current, package case, resistance, vendor, and voltage rated. What do all these mean (aside from vendor). Since I'm placing an order from Digi-Key, I'd like to be able to find it there to save on shipping costs.

Thanks


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*batterystore.com*

Or TNR they are the same site. I talked to Pat, as I was in the same spot as you last week. Call them up, Pat was really nice, I bought my batteries from them as well, they matched the price I had from batterystation.com.


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*Paging Homebrew, Airman*

I have everything sodered (sp?) together, except the overcurrent protector. As mentioned in the above messages, the Klixon 4mm. How exactly do I attach this? On the postive side of the first battery? But how? It is is kind of a T shape, it has to be attached to the battery directly. I could soder it to the positive lead of the battery and then tape it to the battery and the other side of the Klixon have attached to the positive wire going to the out positive wire that will hook up on to the light?

In the attachment that Homebrew had I was going to attach it the one lone battery on the right.

Thanks almost done!


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## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

piercebrew said:


> I have everything sodered (sp?) together, except the overcurrent protector. As mentioned in the above messages, the Klixon 4mm. How exactly do I attach this? On the postive side of the first battery? But how? It is is kind of a T shape, it has to be attached to the battery directly. I could soder it to the positive lead of the battery and then tape it to the battery and the other side of the Klixon have attached to the positive wire going to the out positive wire that will hook up on to the light?
> 
> In the attachment that Homebrew had I was going to attach it the one lone battery on the right.
> 
> Thanks almost done!


Here is a 4mm Klixon on a battery pack. You may need to trim the solder tabs to solder to them. Make sure you go between battery positive and negative with contact to the cells as shown.

Good Luck!


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*Just what I did, but it wont charge*

This is exactly what I did. The same circuit breaker. Trimmed the tabs...
It will power my light. But it wont charge from my Jet smart charger. I don't know why. Homebrew did you have any problems with your battery not charging? 
I talked to Jim at Jet he said that it should charge fine. Put it together and it doesn't. 
The red light on the charger will go on for a second and then off, if I push in the connect very hard in the Jet charger. 
Any help. I'm a bit upset since I've spent about $55 on everything, and now it work. After Jim told me they would be selling there m6 from last year at $100. 
What now?


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## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

*Can you...*



piercebrew said:


> This is exactly what I did. The same circuit breaker. Trimmed the tabs...
> It will power my light. But it wont charge from my Jet smart charger. I don't know why. Homebrew did you have any problems with your battery not charging?
> I talked to Jim at Jet he said that it should charge fine. Put it together and it doesn't.
> The red light on the charger will go on for a second and then off, if I push in the connect very hard in the Jet charger.
> ...


Measure the voltage of the assembly? Is the polarity ok? Connections are good with no shorting?

Unfortunately, I have no idea what your charger is, or what it's designed to do, but if it is a smart charger, it probably won't go into charge mode if it senses something unusual with the battery pack. That would most likely be very low battery voltage or reverse polarity?

Can you tell me cell count and voltage?

Thanks


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*Nothing that complex...*

I took apart the smart charger, and realized that the adapter I bought at Radio Shack, wasn't exactly the correct size and was not hitting both the positive and negative terminals. Fixed it by attaching a rubber band to make them contact. Will have to get the correct adapter though. I'll post a picture. I used a duct tape to cover all the terminals, since I'm cramming this thing into a water bottle. Thats not a bad thing is it? Just wanted to be overly catious, it just doesn't look as clean as yours. But the circuit breaker is in the exact same set up. 
So the Charger does work with my battery, and my NR Classic now has a new life.

Thanks for the help everyone.


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## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

*Good Job...*



piercebrew said:


> I took apart the smart charger, and realized that the adapter I bought at Radio Shack, wasn't exactly the correct size and was not hitting both the positive and negative terminals. Fixed it by attaching a rubber band to make them contact. Will have to get the correct adapter though. I'll post a picture. I used a duct tape to cover all the terminals, since I'm cramming this thing into a water bottle. Thats not a bad thing is it? Just wanted to be overly catious, it just doesn't look as clean as yours. But the circuit breaker is in the exact same set up.
> So the Charger does work with my battery, and my NR Classic now has a new life.
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone.


Congratulations!

don't worry about how it looks, as long as it works...

Happy Trails!


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*Filling the water bottle*

I filled my water bottle with the batteries and then added "DAP tex- Insulating Foam Sealant" Latex based, though lite. It seems not to be to strong, as it compresses quite easily. It hasn't been 24 hours yet but, I'm thinking it isn't going to secure the batteries well enough bc it is going to get compressed. Any other thoughts Airman, or Homebrew?
Thanks.


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## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

*Patience...*



piercebrew said:


> I filled my water bottle with the batteries and then added "DAP tex- Insulating Foam Sealant" Latex based, though lite. It seems not to be to strong, as it compresses quite easily. It hasn't been 24 hours yet but, I'm thinking it isn't going to secure the batteries well enough bc it is going to get compressed. Any other thoughts Airman, or Homebrew?
> Thanks.


Although I have never used DAP before, the foam that I have used took a long time to set up. I suppose because the water bottle doesn't breathe very well. Give it some time before you come to any conclusion. Did you run a test bead of this stuff somewhere exposed so that you can see how firm it gets after curing?

As I stated before, I hate this stuff because it makes such a mess... If it doesn't work, you may need to get a different foam product to supplement the DAP foam. Usually the foam gets really tough when finally cured... Wait and see...

Cheers


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*Didn't try a sample spot....*

I should have. I left the water bottle open, I'll just keep on waiting...
Thanks for the help.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

piercebrew said:


> I should have. I left the water bottle open, I'll just keep on waiting...
> Thanks for the help.


I just tried the Dap stuff last time but it didn't work out for me. It was still foamy two days later. I pulled the cells out, wiped them off, washed out the bottle and filled with Great Stuff. It works much better but expands A LOT and is very messy so be careful.


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*where is the great stuff?*

In what department of a Home Deopot would I find the great stuff? 
How long does the great stuff take to harden? 
I had a hard time getting all the foam to the bottom, of the water bottle.
Was thinking about filling some of the bottom with the great stuff (GS) and then placing the batteries in there. 
How much does GS expand? How much area should I leave in the water bottle for it to expand? 
Thanks a lot.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

piercebrew said:


> In what department of a Home Deopot would I find the great stuff?
> How long does the great stuff take to harden?
> I had a hard time getting all the foam to the bottom, of the water bottle.
> Was thinking about filling some of the bottom with the great stuff (GS) and then placing the batteries in there.
> ...


I picked it up from one on the end aisles that are all over the HD but I'm sure you can find it with the weather stripping. Like I said, it expands A LOT so be careful. Maybe just do a little bit at a time. It gets solid overnight.


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*I just got some*

I'll give it a try. I got some latex gloves to use when using the GS. What kind of name is the Great Stuff?


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*This doesn't look too good...*

When I disassembled the old pack that had the dat that never seemed to cure I found this on the end of some of the negative terminals. What is it? I covered all the terminals with Duct tape, should I not do this in the future? What should I do about the terminals now, as I am going to insert the batteries again into the water bottle but this time fill with the Great Stuff.
Thanks.
Pierce


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

The pics are really out of focus so I really can't say. Does your camera have a close-up feature (button with a flower on it)? Anyway, some possibilities...

Corrosion: did you use rosin core flux and not acid? I wouldn't think the duct tape would cause a problem but maybe try electrical tape instead.

Dielectric ooze: are you sure you wired it up correctly? The voltage of the individual cells (maybe 0.9V each drained) should add up to the measured voltage for all the cells.


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*another pic*

I'm sure that the batteries were set up correctly. I'm thinking that it was either the contact with the latex Dap stuff, or that something to do with my soldering, but I don't think so since they were pretty clean. 
Here is another two pics. The last ones were in the micro "flower mode as well" but I think these are a bit better.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

piercebrew said:


> I'm sure that the batteries were set up correctly. I'm thinking that it was either the contact with the latex Dap stuff, or that something to do with my soldering, but I don't think so since they were pretty clean.
> Here is another two pics. The last ones were in the micro "flower mode as well" but I think these are a bit better.


Ahh, definitely corrosion. The Dap is water based so sitting in that for a couple days probably caused it. You can clean it off with a brush and some WD40 or electrical contact cleaner and/or slap some No-Ox on there. Should be okay though. Since it's not corroded between the connections it's not going to affect the current flow.

You mentioned it wasn't charging properly so I wouldn't seal it up with the Great Stuff until you're sure it's okay. If there is a problem, you would have to cut the bottle to get to the cells after the foam cures.


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## piercebrew (Jan 14, 2004)

*It charges fine*

I just had the wrong size adapter going into the Jet smart charger, fixed it with a rubber band. Then returned the adapter and got size "N" and it works great now. 
I'll send final pics latter today.
Thanks for the help.


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## cheetos316 (Jan 24, 2004)

*Battery deals....*

Was just surfing through Ebay and spotted these.... seems to be a great deal.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44019&item=3190576754&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50623&item=3095095494

Wondering if they'll compare to the Sanyos.......


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## cheetos316 (Jan 24, 2004)

*Soldering the fuse question and power cord Q*

At the stage where I have to assemble and solder everything together execpt the fuse I have seems to be too long. The tabs stick out further than the width of the two batteries. What should I do here? Place something in between as a filler? Also, on the power cord, is there a difference which lead I solder to the negative and which to the positive?

Thanks again


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

cheetos316 said:


> At the stage where I have to assemble and solder everything together execpt the fuse I have seems to be too long. The tabs stick out further than the width of the two batteries. What should I do here? Place something in between as a filler? Also, on the power cord, is there a difference which lead I solder to the negative and which to the positive?
> 
> Thanks again


You can try putting the fuse inbetween the pack and the cord or attach some extra wire between the cells and the fuse to get it out of the way and then placing it flat against the pack. It doesn't matter for the cord so much but the center pin of the connector should be positive.


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## cheetos316 (Jan 24, 2004)

*Newly made pack not taking in full charge?*

Just when you thought this thread was going to be gone! I finally got around to build the battery pack. Did it using the 4/3A Sanyo's from BatteryStation.com with a Raychem Polyswitch fuse and the coiled right angle connector from the cigarette adapter from allelectronics.com that the DIY lights faq suggested. After soldering everything together, I charged the battery pack with my microbrute charger. As soon as I connect the battery to the light, it goes into reserve mode. So I went out to get the Maha C-777 Plus to analyze the battery. I discharged and charged the pack a few times but it will say that the pack is full at like 1500 mah. What's going on here?

Also, thinking that I would have an extra battery to kick around, I bought an extra Niterider lamp off ebay. The lamp came missing the rubber grommet that is usually found on the lamps. Because of that, the connection is not as tight. The battery will flicker from on to off. Is there any way I can fix this?

Thanks!


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## airman (Jan 13, 2004)

cheetos316 said:


> Just when you thought this thread was going to be gone! I finally got around to build the battery pack. Did it using the 4/3A Sanyo's from BatteryStation.com with a Raychem Polyswitch fuse and the coiled right angle connector from the cigarette adapter from allelectronics.com that the DIY lights faq suggested. After soldering everything together, I charged the battery pack with my microbrute charger. As soon as I connect the battery to the light, it goes into reserve mode. So I went out to get the Maha C-777 Plus to analyze the battery. I discharged and charged the pack a few times but it will say that the pack is full at like 1500 mah. What's going on here?
> 
> Also, thinking that I would have an extra battery to kick around, I bought an extra Niterider lamp off ebay. The lamp came missing the rubber grommet that is usually found on the lamps. Because of that, the connection is not as tight. The battery will flicker from on to off. Is there any way I can fix this?
> 
> Thanks!


I don't know about Niterider part (is it a rubber grommet?), but the battery problem will need some troubleshooting. Measure the charged battery voltage and that should indicate if you've got a bad cell. Check all the connections and polarities to make sure everything is wired correctly. Post your findings and maybe someone can help. Maybe start a new thread to get everyone's attention...

Cheers


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

Sounds like something is wrong with your battery. It should be measuring higher capcity than that. Hopefully you haven't wrapped it up and sealed it yet. Like airman said, check the voltage on each cell and the overall pack. Fully charged, it should read around 1.3V for each cell and close to 15V for the whole pack.

On the cord, you may need to shave a bit off the platic molding around the connector to get deeper penetration on the connector barrel. This will give you a better chance to make a good connection on the center pin.


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## sliver (May 17, 2006)

*Corrosion and rapid discharge Related to Dap Tex Foam*

The same thing happened to my home built pack. I wrapped the entire battery assembly in clear heavy duty packing tape (3M) and then filled the bottle with some dap tex at the bottom, stuck in the assemly and filled the sides and top with dap, screwed on the bottle lid, and a few months later, the battery discharged on its own to about 4 volts due to the dap never curing properly, penetrating the poorly sealed battery assembly (3m packing tape) and causing the exact same corrosion that is captured in your photos on page 2 of this thread.

Perhaps Great Stuff will work better. Will try this next time. There goes another $60 on cells. And yet I keep making these things myself instead of just buying one pre-made. Stubborn I tell ya.

-Sliver



piercebrew said:


> I'm sure that the batteries were set up correctly. I'm thinking that it was either the contact with the latex Dap stuff, or that something to do with my soldering, but I don't think so since they were pretty clean.
> Here is another two pics. The last ones were in the micro "flower mode as well" but I think these are a bit better.


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## KWyer (Jul 14, 2006)

*Niterider Digital Pro 12-E Battery Replacement / Rebuild*

I have a couple of Niterider Digital Pro 12-E models with the waterbottle battery and have had one rebuild in the traditional way of rebuilding the battery with the same cells and a more recent one rebuild with a Li-Ion battery back. The new Li-Ion solution is so easy and effective that I highly recommend going in this direction. Much less weight and will hold a charge much longer without bleed off like a Nimh pack. Here's how I did it:

*Note: this info is only for this particular light. I have not tested it on any other light.*

Bought this battery pack off of ebay from Tenergy battery company:

http://www.tenergybattery.com/index...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27

With this battery charger:

http://www.tenergybattery.com/index...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27

The pack is a 14.8 volt system but works fine with the 13.2 volt light and just makes it burn a little brighter. No problems after 6 months of weekly use.

Carefully open up the waterbottle battery and clip the two leads just above the battery.

Remove all batteries and packing contents around the battery until nothing is left in the bottom of the battery container.

Slide the prebuilt Li-Ion pack into the bottom half of the waterbottle battery container. It will be a tight fit and the plastic bottle container will ovalize but when you put the top back on it reform just fine. It is snug enough that you will not need anything else to secure it for normal riding. If your are doing some crazy extreme stuff then you may want to secure it with something more.

Solder the red to red and black to black, apply some adhesive on the joint and screw the top on the bottom.

Cut the plug off your old charger with about 6 inches of wire exposed and attach to bare wire leads that came with the charger.

Make sure the new charger is switched to the 14.8 setting and then plug the battery up to it.

*Note: Do not plug the new charger into the cable going to the headlamp like you did before with the old charger. You only plug the new charger directly to the battery without involving the headlamp assembly in any way. *

If its not obvious you cannot use your old charger. Only use the new charger.

I try and post some pictures soon.

These lights are very well built and will last a long time and with this simple battery upgrade have a long life span. The new LED lights are great and I would'nt mind having one myself but with this low cost upgrade you can extend your current investment in these lights or pick one up cheap off of ebay and rehab it with a new battery. I use my lights mainly for road riding at night and communting and this system, with the integrated and powerfull Niterider taillight, is by far the best and safest solution in my opinion. My lights are about 8 years old and are going strong with new batteries.


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## pmcrory (Nov 9, 2009)

Hi,

I've just read all the above. Quick question; can I use cells with the button on top in rebuilding, or should I stick to plain or tabbed cells? Looking around, 'buttoned' cells appear sometimes cheaper. There are no fundamental issues with soldering on buttoned cells, are there? Thx.

Paul


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## KWyer (Jul 14, 2006)

They should work but I do not do any stuff like that as I only buy prebuilt packs that just drop in the existing waterbottle battery housing. Some pics at:

http://bigyver.blogspot.com


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