# Do hardtails make you a better rider? Or...



## unrooted (Jul 31, 2007)

I rode hardtails for a LONG time before I rode my first fully suspended bike (1990-2013) so I keep thinking that I really need to have a HT in my shed along with my “full sus enduro rig” . But I don’t really know if I can decide why I want it: do I really think riding a HT will make me a better rider, or possibly cause the local trails to feel less boring so that it makes the trails more interesting on a HT so I’ll be more inclined to ride them...or if I really just want to impress people by showing them that I can “ride the gnar” on a hardy tail...

but I won’t get one because i’m more scared that l won’t actually be able to impress anyone with my lousy riding skills???!


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Every bike makes you a better rider.
=sParty


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## Reaperactual (Apr 20, 2020)

Do hardtails make you a better rider? No, it just requires a slightly different technique/riding style, line choice, etc...

Full sus or hardtail? Who cares as long as you're having fun but nice to have both.

Making a decision based on what 'anyone' else thinks or if they will be impressed or not is nuts! 🤪 🪙🪙


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## QuickSilverZ (Oct 23, 2011)

Riding my hardtail has for sure made me a smoother rider, which translates over when riding my full suspension. I don't know if that necessarily makes me a better rider though, just taught me some new techniques. The main reason for me to get one was like you mentioned, to make my local trails a little more exciting again.


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## trulede (Sep 12, 2018)

Turning up on a hardtail is impressive enough. If its steel, even better.


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

I only ride ht's but I don't know if I'm any better because of this. I'm at best an ok rider given the years I ride and the mileage, certainly nothing fancy. On harder trails it's a very involving ride so it forces you to be on top of your game, but fatique sets in at some point and then technique starts to deteriorate. One could argue that a bike with rear suspension opens up new possibilities and new lines, which can make one a better rider. Then once you can see something is possible you can do it on your ht too.

Sometimes people are impressed I cleaned a certain section "on a hardtail" but I bet they would too if they tried. Modern enduro/trail hardtails are very capable machines, you can do almost anything on them, it will just be bumpier and possibly a bit slower than an fs, but not by much.

Personally I like the feedback and the low maintenance of a good ht, plus I like them as objects. Most of the time they look better than a full suspension in my eyes. Simple, cleaner lines.

In the end, I think some people see it as a fun ride and others as a painfull one.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

I rediscovered my hard tail I build up as a back as a gravel/trail bike and I am really enjoying it.
Like said before you need to choose your lines more carefully but that is part of the fun for me.
Getting used to flat pedals is a whole different story.😉


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Riding more often, longer and taking chances makes you a better rider. 

When I screw up, I don't blame the equipment. When I do well, I credit the equipment.


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

Hardtails don’t make you a better rider but full suspensions can make you think you are a better rider than you really are.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

justwan naride said:


> ... One could argue that a bike with rear suspension opens up new possibilities and new lines, which can make one a better rider. Then once you can see something is possible you can do it on your ht too.
> ...


We had this exact discussion this past weekend on our ride trip. Yes, rigid/HT helps you pick a good line, but FS teaches you how to deal with what line you picked when it was not the best choice. So yes, sParty, all bikes make you a better rider (if you are open to becoming better).

I just installed a 140mm fork on a bike that has been rigid for 10 yrs. It forgives some mistakes, and def. reduces fatigue for a guy who doesn't ride as consistently often as he used to. But in no way does it make the bike clear previously unrideable obstacles.

-F


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

IMO, even when choosing the best lines, a HT makes you a "feelit" Rider. You feel it the next day! (I nottice this more at 50 than I did at 30).


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Rev Bubba said:


> Riding more often, longer and taking chances makes you a better rider.
> 
> When I screw up, I don't blame the equipment. When I do well, I credit the equipment.


Yes but I also hope you give yourself some credit too.


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

Does riding a hardtail make you a better rider? I ride a hardtail, so absolutely.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Hardtails are fun. Period.

Will it make you a better rider? Maybe. Riding technical or steep terrain is definitely harder on a hardtail. Some people enjoy the challenge, others have no interest in anything that makes their riding harder. IMO most people seek anything that makes their riding easier.

Would I ride anything because of what other people thought? No.

If you want a hardtail, get a hardtail. If you want to try and impress people, get a Unicycle and learn to juggle.


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

It's weird but I prefer HTs. I pick up a FS and I'm stoked to get out on the trail with it. What do I find? Well, I find it sloppy and just all over the place. I never feel as stable on a FS as I do a HT. So I always sell the FS and go back to my HTs. Of course, frame material makes a HUGE difference. I will only ride steel. Alu will practically rip your whole body apart on super rocky or rooted terrain.

I've been on my custom Samsara XO steel HT for 5 years w/o ever riding a FS. I'm almost 50 and this bike rides so well that after 5 years, I still find myself loving the ride. I have no desire for a FS. Does that mean I'm a better rider? No idea but it makes me enjoy the riding more.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> If you want to try and impress people, get a Unicycle and learn to juggle.


hahahahaha


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Single speed hardtails are superior in every way. Prove me wrong.


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

I rode hardtails for 30yrs and only got my first FS last year. I gave my HT to the Ms and I rode the FS exclusively all of last year but I missed having a HT so I built up a 2021 Meta HT frame. WOW! I'd forgotten how much fun and lively it is to be on a HT and so playful and just want to pop off everything. I did notice how sloppy I'd gotten in some of my technique that I managed to get away with on my FS. Another thing I noticed was how much more taxing it was on the legs. It's not like I can comfortably sit through some of the bumpy trails like I can on my FS. Most times I'm off the saddle on the HT.

Does my HT make me a better rider? Well, maybe to a point but more so for me to choose better lines and keep that lively back end under control. Bunny hop, manuals, hitting drops (other than harsher on a HT when huck to flat) and jumps all use the same technique. In some, the HT makes it a little easier but that doesn't equate to making me a better rider.

My HT has become my weekday workout bike and on weekends, it's full send on the FS.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

*OneSpeed* said:


> If you want to try and impress people, get a Unicycle and learn to juggle.


Yeah around here the unicycles are a tad to frequent so you are absolutely right that you need another skill.
Bonus points also for a clown suit especially with those oversized shoes.

Descending on my last ride I almost ran into one because his smaller statue and his earth tone clothes.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

They might help with specific skills but from a speed perspective I think it's unlikely once you have the basics down. While I'm sure there are exceptions I never see or hear about pro enduro/DH riders practicing on hardtails. It's kinda the opposite in a way, you're more likely to see the DH racers riding moto. Getting used to riding at higher speeds definitely helps. I think as far as skill development your better off adding a bmx, DJ, or moto to your lineup than a hardtail trail bike.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

jeremy3220 said:


> &#8230;.adding a bmx, DJ, or moto to your lineup than a hardtail trail bike.


My hardtail is a multi purpose gravel, trail and future DJ bike. ?


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Trinimon said:


> Does my HT make me a better rider? Well, maybe to a point but more so for me to choose better lines


Can you define what you mean by better lines? What's better about them? I hear people use this term but not sure what they mean.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

jeremy3220 said:


> Can you define what you mean by better lines? What's better about them? I hear people use this term but not sure what they mean.


For me that means smoother lines like avoiding hitting rocks etc. I would just ride over with my fully because I am the rear suspension.


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## Chuck Johnson (Aug 5, 2020)

Hardtails make you more sore, not mo betta.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I think there are elements of truth to a hardtail making you a better rider, but I don't think most people explain it well. This probably won't be a very good explanation, either, but I'll try.

I think the word "feedback" hits the nail on the head. But it's also something that's not universally true for everyone all the time.

At a certain skill level, It's extremely useful to have feedback from the trail (and the bike) so you can learn what a good line was and what a bad line was. If you overbike, the bike is going to mute the trail feedback. A skilled rider will still be able to feel it and make adjustments, but a rider with less skill won't necessarily be attuned to that yet and muting trail feedback too much could slow or prevent a rider from ever becoming truly attuned to it.

I see this as something important that people need to learn. The ability to look ahead at a section of trail and plan out your line choices. As things start getting chunky, the HT is going to give you a lot of feedback if your line isn't smooth.

Now, there's also a bit of a catch-22 on this. It TAKES more skill to ride a hardtail smoothly on technical trails, but it's not going to inherently make you better. You need to take the feedback you get and actually learn from it, and practice developing your skills. You can do that on any bike, of course, and a FS bike is a bit less taxing, especially over longer rides on technical terrain.

The other catch-22 is that for a very very beginner rider, a hardtail can present a barrier to enjoying singletrack trails. They don't have the skills to ride smoothly yet. They're probably lower fitness/stamina and unable to use their body to ride smoothly. They don't have the ability to choose the best lines, let alone to see various line options. The only thing that will develop these skills will be riding more. If the hardtail is too frustrating for them, a lot of people won't ride more. The comments about every bike making you a better rider (so long as you ride it), riding more, etc have a lot of truth to them.

Unfortunately, there's no perfect answer. I think in an ideal money-is-no-object world where everybody rode bikes everywhere, everybody would have several bikes for different things and they'd ride them all. You'd have both a FS mtb and a hardtail MTB (maybe more than one of each) and could really take advantage of riding each one and learning the things that each bike is best suited to learn on.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

If you think hardtails make you pick better lines because you ride around rocks and features, then I feel bad for you because you're riding a hardtail in the most unfun way possible. The thing that makes hardtails MORE fun is that you don't just mow through trail features, letting your suspension do the work. With a hardtail you actually manipulate the bike over and through features. 

Riding a hardtail is more engaging than a full suspension, which is why so many people (like myself) love them and have a hard time making the leap to full squish.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

acer66 said:


> For me that means smoother lines like avoiding hitting rocks etc. I would just ride over with my fully because I am the rear suspension.


What is better about the smoother line though? What is the advantage?


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## Surfindabass (Nov 30, 2020)

Grew up on HTs, moved to a location better suited to FS and got really used to it. Built up a Hardtail for the new area and didn’t enjoy it at all. Felt like my riding was worse. Ride the bike that’ll make you ride more. Riding is what makes you a better rider.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

jeremy3220 said:


> What is better about the smoother line though? What is the advantage?


Not getting my a** kicked by the seat.🤪
I think Harold and SSS worded it best.

I am not that fit and on a hard tail I have to be way more active like getting out of the seat than on a fully so it is more demanding but not in a bad way, I really like the additional challenge I just need to get more fit.
On top of that mine is an aluminum one so it is not really forgiving.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> If you think hardtails make you pick better lines because you ride around rocks and features, then I feel bad for you because you're riding a hardtail in the most unfun way possible. The thing that makes hardtails MORE fun is that you don't just mow through trail features, letting your suspension do the work. With a hardtail you actually manipulate the bike over and through features.
> 
> Riding a hardtail is more engaging than a full suspension, which is why so many people (like myself) love them and have a hard time making the leap to full squish.


A lot of people ride that way....even full suspensions. It's painfully evident on trails where the trail continues to creep around exposed roots and rocks because people just avoid the bumpy stuff.

But I definitely agree that the most fun way to ride is to work the bike over. Maybe that means going slow with finesse. Maybe that means a pop that lets you air it out over the chunk (definitely faster than taking the smooth line around all of it). Riding smoothly does not mean taking the easy line all the time. It means conserving momentum. If done well, it means you're faster and probably with less effort expended (at least in pedaling). The sort of feedback a hardtail provides is when you do a poor job of riding smoothly through chunk. This is the kind of feedback that a FS can deaden and it takes a good deal more attunement to it to feel it and understand what it's doing to your ride.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Harold said:


> The sort of feedback a hardtail provides is when you do a poor job of riding smoothly through chunk. This is the kind of feedback that a FS can deaden and it takes a good deal more attunement to it to feel it and understand what it's doing to your ride.


Exactly. That's why I feel like this conversation always gets steered in the wrong direction. It's not really an argument of one providing you more skills than the other, both hardtail and full suspension have their own certain skillset. It's more about how you use the tool you're given. I think a lot of people feel like hardtails give you more "skills" because its much easier to go from a hardtail to a full suspension than vice versa. If you've been riding mostly hardtail, a rear shock is basically just an extra tool. Give a full suspension guy a hardtail and its going to take much longer to learn the body movements to be really efficient.

I think at the end of the day one isn't better than the other, and a well rounded stable probably helps with being the most efficient rider. I understand why people get stuck on one or the other though. I am guilty of it. I hate climbing and flat riding on a full suspension. I've owned quite a few, and I just can't make myself enjoy doing anything but fast, chunky downhills on them. The rest of the day is just miserable imo.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Yes, spending time on a HT does make you a better rider, IMO. It does for me, at least.

Same is true of full rigid, single-speed, and flat pedals. All these things I find to be ultimately a disadvantage for me, but build a larger skill set to draw from . And they are all fun in their own way.

That does not mean that any of these things are what I want to spend the majority of my time on, though.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have also found that spending some time on a DH bike to be a valuable learning tool as well.

Perhaps the takeaway for me is that riding a variety of type of bike makes you a better rider overall.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

What I like about hardtails:


When I want to refine a line/feature/maneuver with precision, the HT doesn't over compensate - thus get direct feedback as to how I performed
regardless of terrain, that direct feedback keeps me engaged on the ride - I feel like I squeeze a lot of entertainment on virtually any ride
pumping on HT is fun
simple tool

What is challenging

fast, chunk lines are punitive
distance and chatter can be draining
doesn't inspire risk taking as the margin of error is narrow

My take on skills:

If you want to learn a new skill or go bigger/faster, take the FS so you have a margin of error and safety - confidence
If you already have a skill but want to refine your technique with precision (get it dialed), try the HT


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I think at the end of the day one isn't better than the other, and a well rounded stable probably helps with being the most efficient rider. I understand why people get stuck on one or the other though. I am guilty of it. I hate climbing and flat riding on a full suspension. I've owned quite a few, and I just can't make myself enjoy doing anything but fast, chunky downhills on them. The rest of the day is just miserable imo.


This is part of the reason that when I have owned FS bikes, I've usually gravitated towards shorter travel ones.

There's one technical climb in Pisgah, though, that I've only been able to clean on a FS bike (a FS fatbike, no less). I've tried it a few times on my hardtail and it takes so much engagement (that "floating over the saddle but not quite standing all the way up" technique can be exhausting) that I get tired and flub something. It's tough. Not many people even try it because most just take the long gravel slog instead of the singletrack.

A big reason why I got a hardtail was because there's so much nontechnical gravel flat or climbing to access the fun downhills that I wanted a bike that transferred power a bit better. I was actually surprised/impressed at how good it was on the rowdy downs that I've been riding it as my only bike since I bought it. The times I would like a FS are actually fewer than I expected.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Harold said:


> This is part of the reason that when I have owned FS bikes, I've usually gravitated towards shorter travel ones.


I've considered that, but always run into the conundrum of "if I'm only going to have X amount of travel, why not just stick with a hardtail". Like 100mm would be a waste for me, because I couldn't ride anything any different than I do with a hardtail. I feel like 120mm is bordering on that so well. So I have had a couple 140mm bikes, which people say are the ultimate FS. Pedaling uphill on a 140mm sucks, and they're not great for big DH days. I got murdered on The Whole Enchilada on my Jeffsy.

I know I'm just not giving it enough time. One of these days I'm going to buy a big FS and just make myself ride it until I get used to it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> What I like about hardtails:
> 
> 
> When I want to refine a line/feature/maneuver with precision, the HT doesn't over compensate - thus get direct feedback as to how I performed
> ...


I agree with most of this. The line I bolded is something that sticks out for me. I actually wanted to REDUCE my risk-taking, which is another reason I chose to buy a hardtail a few years ago. I wanted to have more fun/engagement at a lower speed on some of the blisteringly fast downhills. What I found, though, is that I didn't really sacrifice much. I think the punitive nature of riding fast through chunk is something you can address with skill/technique. Maybe not to put you quite level with a bigger FS bike, but to address most of it. Reduce the punitive nature of it, anyway.

The distance/chatter part is something I agree with wholeheartedly. Since you're using more of your muscle engagement to manage the bike, you feel all that little chatter. Over time, it absolutely does wear you out. That's probably the biggest thing that has me wanting a FS after riding a HT exclusively for a couple years. I don't feel like I've lost anything on drops with the HT compared to FS. That's the thing that surprised me the most.

I'm still working the "fast section of trail leads up to a bunch of chunk" stuff without slamming on the brakes to slow finesse my way through the chunk. Hitting a bunny hop (or maybe a bump jump, or similar) on the right line just before the chunk so I can hit less of it and float through it takes definite work/practice. But when you pull it off, man, that's rewarding. And that's a skill that's definitely applicable to a FS, too.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Harold said:


> A big reason why I got a hardtail was because there's so much nontechnical gravel flat or climbing to access the fun downhills that I wanted a bike that transferred power a bit better. I was actually surprised/impressed at how good it was on the rowdy downs that I've been riding it as my only bike since I bought it. The times I would like a FS are actually fewer than I expected.


Interesting, same here my best riding buddy asked me why I am doing this to myself including switching to flats and that is sorta what I came up with.

I also like riding the hard tail when riding gravel with friends and if we then sometimes go on trails its much fun.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Riding hardtails definitely make you a better ride....of hardtails.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Harold said:


> I actually wanted to REDUCE my risk-taking, which is another reason I chose to buy a hardtail a few years ago. I wanted to have more fun/engagement at a lower speed on some of the blisteringly fast downhills.


In terms of fun with lower risk, I'm definitely in that camp. I don't need or want to be at the edge of my boundaries with consequences on every ride/at all times. I think the HT is a good tool for this - I can be full immersed in the ride-experience, working it - but on a 'regular' trail and not having to be close to gonzo to have fun. I think there is a trend where people have selected bikes that overly dull the main trails they have access to... but that's another topic.

Regarding fast chunk, I'm just going to say I don't relish it anymore and I don't think it's a technique thing... but it may be an age/abuse thing. Been near exclusive to the hardtail all year. I have 3 - three+ mile, chunky descents in my back-yard. I can ride them and ride them at speed but about 1/2 thru - I've lost the joy. My HT is a 170 Stylus. My FS is a 170/170 Canfield Balance. Given a choice, I'll flow them on the Balance over the Stylus any day of the week. I'll end exhilarated vs fatigued & battered. Maybe a 25 year old me would feel different about the HT accomplishment and reward but these days I'm ok with not swimming upstream. YMMV.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

unrooted said:


> I rode hardtails for a LONG time before I rode my first fully suspended bike (1990-2013) so I keep thinking that I really need to have a HT in my shed along with my "full sus enduro rig" . But I don't really know if I can decide why I want it: do I really think riding a HT will make me a better rider, or possibly cause the local trails to feel less boring so that it makes the trails more interesting on a HT so I'll be more inclined to ride them...or if I really just want to impress people by showing them that I can "ride the gnar" on a hardy tail...
> 
> but I won't get one because i'm more scared that l won't actually be able to impress anyone with my lousy riding skills???!


I hate to brake it to you, but your glory days are over and no bike will make you a better rider than you were. A good hard tail or fully rigid bike is great for one thing&#8230; making excuses for why you're too slow, can't clear stuff, and get tired faster. The noob full sus crowd will give you and your grey hair the respect they think you deserve. You'll get encouragement like "nice try", "frame and balls of steel for riding that rig here", and the occassional "wow, how do you ride that thing?". This may help protect the fragile ego and keep you out of trouble. I look forward to building one soon


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Even in moto, you can see that riders will lose a bike length or two if they don't pick the smooth lines that allow them to carry momentum. And this is even with a 450 engine pumping out 60 horsepowers. So picking smoother lines is important in a lot of situations. On a hardtail, sometimes you are forced to pick smoother lines. On a full suspension bike, you can get away with mashing over stuff - that is, unless you happen to be racing with higher level competition. So it depends. If you are a weekend warrior, don't worry about it. If you are racing at a high level, then training on a hardtail can help. Connor Fearon rode and won on a Honzo in an Australia pro enduro race and his competition were the likes of Troy Brosnan and Steven Gebert.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

tick_magnet said:


> Even in moto, you can see that riders will lose a bike length or two if they don't pick the smooth lines that allow them to carry momentum. And this is even with a 450 engine pumping out 60 horsepowers. So picking smoother lines is important in a lot of situations. On a hardtail, sometimes you are forced to pick smoother lines. On a full suspension bike, you can get away with mashing over stuff - that is, unless you happen to be racing with higher level competition. So it depends. If you are a weekend warrior, don't worry about it. If you are racing at a high level, then training on a hardtail can help. Connor Fearon rode and won on a Honzo in an Australia pro enduro race and his competition were the likes of Troy Brosnan and Steven Gebert.


Racing and riding for fun are two completely different things. I get what you're saying, but most of us don't pick lines based on what will get us to finish line faster. That's actually part of the reason I quit racing, was because I got tired of traveling to new trails and feeling like I couldn't enjoy them because the only time I got to ride them was in race mode.

In a race environment, you're correct though.


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Single speed hardtails are superior in every way. Prove me wrong.


I agree! I rode SS exclusively for almost 15 years. After completing an IM and now almost 50, I don't have the same 'prove it to myself I can do it' attitude. Now it's more about relaxing, getting out and just enjoying being on a bike.

But yea, I agree with this statement.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Racing and riding for fun are two completely different things. I get what you're saying, but most of us don't pick lines based on what will get us to finish line faster. That's actually part of the reason I quit racing, was because I got tired of traveling to new trails and feeling like I couldn't enjoy them because the only time I got to ride them was in race mode.
> 
> In a race environment, you're correct though.


For sure, which is why I threw in the caveat that weekend warriors shouldn't worry about it. One practical problem I see though is how much most people neglect their suspension. I am not sure that a full suspension bike that hasn't seen any suspension service for three years is better than a hardtail. And I can count on one hand the number of people I know that service their suspension on a regular basis.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> In terms of fun with lower risk, I'm definitely in that camp. I don't need or want to be at the edge of my boundaries with consequences on every ride/at all times. I think the HT is a good tool for this - I can be full immersed in the ride-experience, working it - but on a 'regular' trail and not having to be close to gonzo to have fun. I think there is a trend where people have selected bikes that overly dull the main trails they have access to... but that's another topic.
> 
> Regarding fast chunk, I'm just going to say I don't relish it anymore and I don't think it's a technique thing... but it may be an age/abuse thing. Been near exclusive to the hardtail all year. I have 3 - three+ mile, chunky descents in my back-yard. I can ride them and ride them at speed but about 1/2 thru - I've lost the joy. My HT is a 170 Stylus. My FS is a 170/170 Canfield Balance. Given a choice, I'll flow them on the Balance over the Stylus any day of the week. I'll end exhilarated vs fatigued & battered. Maybe a 25 year old me would feel different about the HT accomplishment and reward but these days I'm ok with not swimming upstream. YMMV.


There's probably a bit of both going on, esp on the trails you describe. When chunky descents get that long, I definitely lean farther into the slow down and finesse it camp. If the spots are too long, I can definitely see getting tired of it and losing the joy. The chunky stuff I was describing is a bit different. Longer descents overall, but the chunkiness tends to be shorter clusters interspersed with smoother, faster sections. Most folks probably get to the chunky spots with more speed in general (my downhill speeds are midpack at best) but after a couple bike lengths you're through it and onto the next fast section. Hit one wrong, and it wrecks your momentum and you have to spend extra energy pedaling up to speed again.

Given the sort of smooth gravel climbs on the vast majority of rides around here, I'm not sure I'd enjoy a 170 bike on most of my local stuff, even for the descents where I'd benefit from it. I might, if it was the "right" bike. But finding a FS that really feels right has been tough for me of late. And right now with the supply limitations and lack of demos, I'm just waiting a little longer.


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## ugadawg (Jun 27, 2020)

I don’t know if hardtails make me better, but I do enjoy different riding experiences. I mainly ride my 27.5 FS with 130 travel, but I like riding my 29 hardtail if the trails are messy or on smoother trails where I want to carry the extra speed that a 29er provides.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I feel like if you're loosing momentum on a FS you'd feel it, or should anyway. I can only imagine that having the extra feedback would be a benefit if someone was otherwise very over biked, normally it's just a setup issue.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

jeremy3220 said:


> I feel like if you're loosing momentum on a FS you'd feel it, or should anyway. I can only imagine that having the extra feedback would be a benefit if someone was otherwise very over biked, normally it's just a setup issue.


Are you talking about a racing context or a weekend warrior fun ride context? Because if it's racing, it's not just a setup issue. Again, look at pro motocross where guys spend hundreds of hours testing and setting up their suspension and if they take the less smooth lines, they can lose a bike length on that line alone. I use the moto example because momentum matters a lot less for them than it does for us in our human powered sport. And yet, it's a difference maker even for them.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

tick_magnet said:


> Are you talking about a racing context or a weekend warrior fun ride context? Because if it's racing, it's not just a setup issue. Again, look at pro motocross where guys spend hundreds of hours testing and setting up their suspension and if they take the less smooth lines, they can lose a bike length on that line alone. I use the moto example because momentum matters a lot less for them than it does for us in our human powered sport. And yet, it's a difference maker even for them.


Either. Momentum is important and there's technique to retain it. Feeling it is a setup issue but also depends on experience. However, I don't think anyone needs a hardtail to feel changes in momentum. Are motocross racers training on hardtails to learn to maintain momentum?

I feel like if anything FS helps keep momentum.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

My 170mm bike made me a better rider. Riding that bike at 10/10th means going big and going fast. Riding my XC hardtail feels like slow motion by comparison. I still prefer racing the HT.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

jeremy3220 said:


> Either. Momentum is important and there's technique to retain it. Feeling it is a setup issue but also depends on experience. However, I don't think anyone needs a hardtail to feel changes in momentum. Are motocross racers training on hardtails to learn to maintain momentum?
> 
> I feel like if anything FS helps keep momentum.


I agree that FS helps keep momentum over a hardtail. My only point is that even better is to avoid bad lines altogether. Because no matter how good your technique is, mashing is not better than avoiding a bad line if you have a choice. But if you are going to mash, then mash on a FS.

And I am not saying you have to ride a hardtail to be a good rider. The question was CAN a hardtail help you become a better rider. The answer is yes. Is it necessary? No.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Harold said:


> Given the sort of smooth gravel climbs on the vast majority of rides around here, I'm not sure I'd enjoy a 170 bike on most of my local stuff, even for the descents where I'd benefit from it. I might, if it was the "right" bike. But finding a FS that really feels right has been tough for me of late. And right now with the supply limitations and lack of demos, I'm just waiting a little longer.


Yup. We're at other ends of the country so our terrain options are different. That said, I completely recognize that most trail rider's "best" / "most practical" bike is a 29er, short to mid travel FS. True for me too - & the fact that I know that and don't own one sort of shows that there may be more to bike selection than just out and out efficiency or performance. Sort of germane to conversations around choosing a hardtail.

This may be useful to the OP because I think he's asking himself a similar question to one I had years ago. I used to own a bike for everything. N+1 and all that. HT, SS, FS, ST FS, Plus, Enduro, Fat, Trials, DH, etc. Too many choices. Massive simplification process and now I have 2 regular mtb. They fit similar, they have similar geo. The demarcation is basic: steeze or send. When I get on the hardtail my typical intention is to pump, flow, jib and be smooth on the bike. When I get on the full squish, I still have that same basic style but I can open it up some, get some margin of error and let my hair down. Life's easy now, not over thinkin' it - grab n go.

If I'm being honest, I think the hardtail is a better personality fit for me. I just like it - getting more done with less. But here's another honest bit - to ride it well, I need to be up on my personal upkeep. Come in soft out of the 'off' season - rough times ahead. A bit extra in the middle, lacking core or just not dialed on technique - ouch. It's keeping me in check these days as I need to be up on it and it forces me. Better men than me have lost battles to age so there's no shame in that admission - at some point, I won't be able to resist a bike like the Spur. And that's ok too.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Harold said:


> I agree with most of this. The line I bolded is something that sticks out for me. I actually wanted to REDUCE my risk-taking, which is another reason I chose to buy a hardtail a few years ago. I wanted to have more fun/engagement at a lower speed on some of the blisteringly fast downhills.


This is a good point that I think about often: Is a faster/more capable bike really more fun, or does it just let me go faster when I wreck?


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

This begs the question "What is a better rider?" Is it the fastest down, the fastest up, the fastest overall, the one who can clean the longest climbs, the one who can clean the most technical climbs, the one who catches the biggest air, the one who does any of these with the most style, the one who can do the most with the least? I need more information if I am to compare myself to others based on riding my hardtails. 

I personally chose to get rid of the last of my FS bikes 4+ years ago for a few reasons, but none necessarily associated with improving my riding. At least one reason was for self preservation because a FS allows, or maybe encourages me to ride way faster and try more stupid stuff than I should.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

kapusta said:


> This is a good point that I think about often: Is a faster/more capable bike really more fun, or does it just let me go faster when I wreck?


Both.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Carl Mega said:


> If I'm being honest, I think the hardtail is a better personality fit for me. I just like it - getting more done with less. But here's another honest bit - to ride it well, I need to be up on my personal upkeep. Come in soft out of the 'off' season - rough times ahead. A bit extra in the middle, lacking core or just not dialed on technique - ouch.


Hey, I resemble that comment!


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

jeremy3220 said:


> Both.


I tend to assume it is more fun, but when I really think about it, I don't think I was enjoying the sport any less 24 years ago when I was riding a 63mm HT with 2.0" tires and a 71deg HA.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

sgltrak said:


> I need more information if I am to compare myself to others based on riding my hardtails.


The "better" rider is one who doesn't compare themselves against others and measures themselves against their own metrics, seeking to improve whatever those may be.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Verboten said:


> The "better" rider is one who doesn't compare themselves against others and measures themselves against their own metrics, seeking to improve whatever those may be.


Whew! Good to know I'm already on the right track.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

No, they don't make you a beer rider. Flat pedals will though

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

I rode ht for years, sold my last one two months ago. Riding fs, I do more technical trails and I do them faster, both up and down. The skills don't change. The moves haven't changed. But fs is easier on my joints and the more sensible machine, in my opinion.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

rod9301 said:


> No, they don't make you a beer rider. Flat pedals will though
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


Well, I sometimes ride hardtail and always flat pedals (off road) so I guess I'm a beer rider! Whatever that is.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Full suspension made me a much faster rider.

Full suspension doesn't stop me from still being able to see the hardtail line that avoids the rocks. But now I can choose to fly through the hardtail line, or choose to launch the rocks. It doesn't make me a better rider when I choose the hardtail line, instead of punching the rocks.

I have a gravel bike that is the perfect choice for some trails. But one of my FS bikes is a better choice for most MTB trails. It is much harder to ride a long travel FS on the trails I ride my gravel bike. I wouldn't ride a long travel FS on a gravel bike friendly trail, just to show off to gravel bike riders that I can ride the wrong bike on a gravel bike trail. Same for vice-versa.


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm at a point where I think I may need to switch to FS to evolve as a rider. My technical skills are descent, I'm a bit slower than my mates on 150-160mm enduro bikes on the harder trails and can keep up on the smoother ones. Where the gap grows significantly is on longer descends, 5mins or more. There I can't keep a consistently fast pace without making a mistake that could cause me to stop or crash. It has happened before and I had to kick a taco'ed wheel back to a rideable shape.

This has caused me to be scared of going fast for long. At some point I start wondering "is this safe, am I supposed to be going this fast on a ht, right behind an enduro bike?" and then I back off a little to slip back into my comfort zone. 

Moving to full suspension bike at this point may help expand my comfort zone to higher speeds on longer technical trails. At least my mates believe so.


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## austink26 (Jun 24, 2019)

All this talk about “good” and “smooth” lines is a bit convoluted. I don’t think riding a hardtail makes you any better. You may exercise skills and techniques that are beneficial but those same techniques could be exercised on a fs bike, albeit you may need gnarlier terrain than what you have on tap. 

I have seen many instances where the fastest line (arguably the best line?) is just smashing through at full speed. Something you probably wouldn’t want to do on a hardtail considering how hard it is on a big fs bike. 

At one of the enduros last year there was a stage that ended with a very long, steep, and extremely bumpy double track section. Being on a 160mm enduro rig I just went straight down the middle. I saw a dude on a hardtail collapse at the finish line from being bounced around so much. Based on the clock I don’t think he was “better” than most others. 

Pretty sure the last hardtail I will ever have(for trail use) was sold years ago when I quit xc racing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

austink26 said:


> All this talk about "good" and "smooth" lines is a bit convoluted. I don't think riding a hardtail makes you any better. You may exercise skills and techniques that are beneficial but those same techniques could be exercised on a fs bike, albeit you may need gnarlier terrain than what you have on tap.
> 
> I have seen many instances where the fastest line (arguably the best line?) is just smashing through at full speed. Something you probably wouldn't want to do on a hardtail considering how hard it is on a big fs bike.
> 
> ...


You're confusing "faster" with "better". Of course an enduro bike is going to descend faster than a hardtail. This is not new information.


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## HEMIjer (Jul 17, 2008)

To sum it up, my experience:

- Riding in general makes you a better rider, not just riding but riding and pushing yourself to do things like corner harder, descend faster, brake later, you get the point..
-Riding Hardtail makes you a better hardtail rider on trails where you need to pick lines
-Riding full Suspension makes you a better rider on full suspension, dont care what others say you almost always use part/most of that suspension
-In some cases actually most hardtail vs full suspension matter much less than other bike aspects mainly geo, tire selection and pressure, dropper or not, engine status

go have fun on 2 wheels


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Kind of late to the discussion, but yes — definitely, hardtails make you a better rider.

To be honest, the arguments I hear to the contrary are typically made by people who started out on full suspension. I don’t place much stock in their opinions. 🤣

It’s hard to explain, as Harold pointed out, but I will attempt to do so.

There are two main things that riding a hardtail teaches you (assuming you stick with it long enough to be fast on one): 1. Better line selection and 2. Being active on the bike

#1 is often misconstrued as “taking the easy lines” or “riding around all the obstacles.” No. That’s not what good line selection is about. It is about making quick decisions about which line will cause the least amount of hangup and loss of speed. Sometimes that involves using a feature such as a rock or root to launch and gap over all the chunder. Sometimes it involves bunny hopping over a feature in order to transfer into a depression in order to pump it for speed. I like to think of it in relation to how water would negotiate the trail. Water will always take the smoothest, most efficient path. Riding a hardtail necessitates the same. By the way, all of this transfers to better riding on a full suspension bike as well.

Regarding smooth, flowy trails, I vastly prefer the feel of a hardtail. I want to feel the trail in those situations, as there is no need for suspension to mute any violent trail features.

As for my #2 argument, obviously when you don’t have rear suspension, your arms and legs must become the suspension. Again, this very active style of riding transfers to better technique on full suspension bikes as well. I see so many full-suspension riders riding stiffly and using all their suspension to soak up poor line decisions and obstacles that could have been floated over with better body manipulation of the bike. They learned that their bikes could “handle it” and thus never really experience being one with the bike and working with its strengths as a complete system.

I still ride a full suspension bike about 30% of the time. I generally only take it when riding genuinely gnarly trails or when trying to get Strava KOMs on segments with sustained rough and steep sections where there is no choice but to track over the roughness.

My current hardtail (Kona Honzo ESD) is an incredible bike. I’ve been riding hardtails for 35+ years but this one is hands down the most capable. There is very little that I can do on my 180mm enduro bike that I can’t do on the Honzo ESD.

Last week I rode a double black trail that most riders on full suspension bikes would walk away from. I cleaned all the steep features, but did one “B” line instead of the “A” line ladder bridge drop — because it has a flattish landing and I usually bottom both ends of my enduro bike hitting that feature. I’m going to ride another double black trail tonight after work. I’m looking forward to it.😉


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## BRPHK (Jan 22, 2021)

OldMike said:


> IMO, even when choosing the best lines, a HT makes you a "feelit" Rider. You feel it the next day! (I nottice this more at 50 than I did at 30).


When I told people I was thinking about going back to a hardtail, the most common comment was "it'll destroy your back! Just get a short travel full-sus trail bike."
I'm 58, but in decent riding shape, and I've never had a back problem. The comments were mostly from guys in their 40s and 50s.
What do you reckon? Am I crazy?


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I agree a lot of this discussion is convoluted because nobody is defining what "better" is. Here's my take. You will be faster and will be able to ride chunkier stuff on a full suspension bike. This is almost indisputable. But the question is about whether riding a hardtail can improve your skills. On a hardtail, there are certain lines you cannot ride. On a FS, it's a choice. So if you are forced to engage your brain to actively be more selective, it can make you a better rider. This does not mean you should go with the hardtail on race day, or on your biggest chunky rides.

I ride my hardtail on fast group rides on training days and I can tell you that when I bomb through even innocently looking roots it costs me momentum. That means I have to push harder to close the gap in the next couple straights. Repeat this over a one hour ride, and I am dropped. When I avoid going over the worse part of the roots, I keep my momentum and don't have to push as hard. Still, on race day, I choose the FS bike because sometimes you can't dodge the roots. But I am also more aware that in some sections, I have a choice.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

cookieMonster said:


> #1 is often misconstrued as "taking the easy lines" or "riding around all the obstacles." No. That's not what good line selection is about. It is about making quick decisions about which line will cause the least amount of hangup and loss of speed. Sometimes that involves using a feature such as a rock or root to launch and gap over all the chunder. Sometimes it involves bunny hopping over a feature in order to transfer into a depression in order to pump it for speed. I like to think of it in relation to how water would negotiate the trail. Water will always take the smoothest, most efficient path. Riding a hardtail necessitates the same. By the way, all of this transfers to better riding on a full suspension bike as well.


This is true for full suspension too though. I don't think that hardtails better communicate when you're hanging up, rather they just hang up easier. Hanging up (momentum loss) is felt as a lateral force and using your body as the 'measuring instrument' works just as well regardless of suspension.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

tick_magnet said:


> On a hardtail, there are certain lines you cannot ride. On a FS, it's a choice. So if you are forced to engage your brain to actively be more selective, it can make you a better rider.


This is true sometimes. There are plenty of trails that will engage your brain on a full suspension bike. There are also plenty of trails that don't engage my brain on a hardtail.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

jeremy3220 said:


> This is true sometimes. There are plenty of trails that will engage your brain on a full suspension bike. There are also plenty of trails that don't engage my brain on a hardtail.


Of course. But I'm talking on average.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

BRPHK said:


> When I told people I was thinking about going back to a hardtail, the most common comment was "it'll destroy your back! Just get a short travel full-sus trail bike."
> I'm 58, but in decent riding shape, and I've never had a back problem. The comments were mostly from guys in their 40s and 50s.
> What do you reckon? Am I crazy?


Everyone is different, and even more so as we age. As someone with a few degenerated discs in my lower back, riding HT sometimes aggravates it - other times it doesn't.

Technique/body position makes a big difference, as does core strength, but sometimes it hurts anyway.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

tick_magnet said:


> Of course. But I'm talking on average.


I sold my hardtail partially because it wasn't a challenge on my local trails. I also think being selective on a hardtail isn't a benefit, that's the most basic form of riding. Learning to take the options you can't ride on a hardtail is much more beneficial. Having the choice is much more engaging because the scenario has changed from a simple 'what line can I get down' mindset to 'what options are available and what are the benefits'. A much more complex scenario IMO.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I rode with 2" tires at 45 psi for years. Then I finally figured out that 2.4" tires at <20 psi were much better. Maybe I should go back, to become a better rider!
I'm tired of not being shaken to pieces and having my tires ricochet off of every rock and root.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

jeremy3220 said:


> I sold my hardtail partially because it wasn't a challenge on my local trails. I also think being selective on a hardtail isn't a benefit, that's the most basic form of riding. Learning to take the options you can't ride on a hardtail is much more beneficial. Having the choice is much more engaging because the scenario has changed from a simple 'what line can I get down' mindset to 'what options are available and what are the benefits'. A much more complex scenario IMO.


I can see what you are saying. I think our perspectives might be different because we are prioritizing different things in our riding. But yes, for technical, chunky riding, I agree with you.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jeremy3220 said:


> I don't think that hardtails better communicate when you're hanging up, rather they just hang up easier. Hanging up (momentum loss) is felt as a lateral force and using your body as the 'measuring instrument' works just as well regardless of suspension.


Yes, it does hang up easier. But the hardtail also does make the rider feel that more. It affects the FS bike, too, but less so. The suspension can do more of the work of absorbing the bump, which makes the momentum loss less overall, but also less sudden when it happens. A new rider is going to have less sensitivity to those things, and therefore won't even know when they need to work on improving. The penalty (hanging up, slowing down) on a hardtail is greater and more sudden for riding with poor technique and is a strong incentive incentive to improve your skills. When you don't get it right, it's pretty obvious.



MSU Alum said:


> I rode with 2" tires at 45 psi for years. Then I finally figured out that 2.4" tires at <20 psi were much better. Maybe I should go back, to become a better rider!
> I'm tired of not being shaken to pieces and having my tires ricochet off of every rock and root.


Modern hardtails aren't 2" tires at 45psi. That's gravel bike territory these days. The modern hardtail I'm riding now is just as different from my first hardtail in 1997 as was my first full suspension in 2003. The modern hardtail I ride now is also much more capable than the first full suspension I bought in 2003.

I'm not saying (and I don't think anyone else is, either) that a hardtail is best all the time for everybody. But modern trail hardtails ARE more capable than most give them credit for. Most ppl I've met who think I'm nuts for riding a hardtail are the ones who haven't ridden a hardtail in 20yrs. It doesn't help that GOOD, modern trail hardtails with good components have been remarkably difficult to find and try out over the years. Most shops (and most manufacturers, for that matter) treat hardtails as either xc race bikes or as entry level bikes to hit a price point. That was the biggest factor that kept me from trying one sooner. At this point, I intend to keep one around all the time. Probably as I age, it'll see less rowdy terrain, but there will always be trails where a hardtail is fun.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Anything that causes you to make conscious line choices makes you a better rider.

edit: I'd take my paradox over a full suspension bike from 2010.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

tick_magnet said:


> I can see what you are saying. I think our perspectives might be different because we are prioritizing different things in our riding. But yes, for technical, chunky riding, I agree with you.


I wouldn't read too much into this.
Riding something for fun is great. This is more in response to the idea of getting a hardtail to become a better rider.
It's a subject that comes up regularly - which is fine.
Sounds a lot like "building character". My 68 years have taught me:
1. Building character is generally unpleasant
2. I have enough character.

I took up telemark skiing about 15 years ago. I didn't do it to become a better alpine skier, though I expect it has had that effect (hard to say, as I haven't alpine skied since then). But tele today is nothing like tele in 1970. I suppose if I wanted to be a better tele skier, going back to the old equipment would do it, much like going back to the old hardtails might make you a better hardtail rider. But I wouldn't find it fun, so I'm not going to do it.

So buying a modern hardtail makes a huge amount of sense for the fun factor. Doesn't make much sense to me for the purpose of becoming a better rider.
A mountain unicycle, OTOH...! This actually looks stupid enough to be fun, and I'm sure it builds character.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

jeremy3220 said:


> I sold my hardtail partially because it wasn't a challenge on my local trails. I also think being selective on a hardtail isn't a benefit, that's the most basic form of riding. Learning to take the options you can't ride on a hardtail is much more beneficial. Having the choice is much more engaging because the scenario has changed from a simple 'what line can I get down' mindset to 'what options are available and what are the benefits'. A much more complex scenario IMO.


so you sold your hardtail because it wasn't "a challenge on my local trails". Does this mean you no longer ride your local trails because the full squish makes it even less challenging, or are you saying your skills prevent you from riding the challenging lines on your hardtail? Kinda sounds like the latter.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MSU Alum said:


> This is more in response to the idea of getting a hardtail to become a better rider.


I'm not sure I'd specifically buy a hardtail specifically "to become a better rider" but as part of the decision process, sure. I rode FS bikes exclusively for around 15yrs or so. When I got a hardtail again, I noticed that my line selection was sloppier. Getting back on the hardtail forced me to analyze lines more critically. I also had developed a tendency to just smash through stuff, rather than using any skills at all. The hardtail forced me to dip into my toolbox of skills to ride certain lines or trails more smoothly. These are good things. They transfer back to full suspension bikes, but because I lacked the obvious feedback/penalty of being sloppy on the FS, I got lazy.

As for learning skills, a hardtail does change the dynamic a bit when learning/practicing things like wheelies, hops, manuals, and such because you're not compressing a rear shock. It can simplify some of the motions just a little bit to help you dial in your technique.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

It's kind of interesting that so many feel that the only line you can take on a hardtail is the easiest.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Verboten said:


> so you sold your hardtail because it wasn't "a challenge on my local trails". Does this mean you no longer ride your local trails because the full squish makes it even less challenging, or are you saying your skills prevent you from riding the challenging lines on your hardtail? Kinda sounds like the latter.


No I can ride it all on the hardtail, it's just a bit slower and less comfortable. Early on I did get some enjoyment out of riding my hardtail on stuff some people wouldn't ride on a FS. But I'm over that. After picking up a 120mm 29er I realized it not only performs better than the hardtail up and down but I much prefer the handling. I kinda hate having the unbalanced suspension and how the front dives when it otherwise wouldn't with a balanced full suspension.

And yeah, my local trails have gotten a bit boring. We've built some relatively bigger stuff lately (15ft gaps, 6-8 ft drops) but we're kinda limited by terrain.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

jeremy3220 said:


> No I can ride it all on the hardtail, it's just a bit slower and less comfortable. Early on I did get some enjoyment out of riding my hardtail on stuff some people wouldn't ride on a FS. But I'm over that. After picking up a 120mm 29er I realized it not only performs better than the hardtail up and down but I much prefer the handling. I kinda hate having the unbalanced suspension and how the front dives when it otherwise wouldn't with a balanced full suspension.
> 
> And yeah, my local trails have gotten a bit boring. We've built some relatively bigger stuff lately (15ft gaps, 6-8 ft drops) but we're kinda limited by terrain.


I see, so you never really got your hard tail dialed in correctly Which led to you not being able to take certain lines. I can see where that might be limiting.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Verboten said:


> I see, so you never really got your hard tail dialed in correctly Which led to you not being able to take certain lines. I can see where that might be limiting.


It's weird coming from a bmx background seeing how insecure you guys are to have your ego hinge on 'taking certain lines' on your hardtails. Gotta take a break between hitting 3ft drops on your hardtail to go talk trash on the internet lol.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> I wouldn't read too much into this.
> Riding something for fun is great. This is more in response to the idea of getting a hardtail to become a better rider.
> It's a subject that comes up regularly - which is fine.
> Sounds a lot like "building character". My 68 years have taught me:
> ...


I've got no problems with people's goals. Everyone rides for a different reason and if your jam is just to have fun and not care about unpleasant part of it, more power to you. Who am I to argue with your goals?

But this is a thread about improving. Is your point that we are not adopting the correct life philosophy by pursuing this question?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I really don't care, but which is it:
"trail's too boring, I need more suspension" (for me, trail's too boring means I'll probably look to ride it on a hardtail, or at night)
or
"hardtails are too rough on my body". (this one I get, and I still ride a hardtail mostly)

The two seem diametrically opposed.


btw, "I don't like riding a hardtail" is a totally acceptable answer.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

dysfunction said:


> I really don't care, but which is it:
> "trail's too boring, I need more suspension" (for me, trail's too boring means I'll probably look to ride it on a hardtail, or at night)
> or
> "hardtails are too rough on my body". (this one I get, and I still ride a hardtail mostly)
> ...


 Who said they needed more suspension?


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

Verboten said:


> I see, so you never really got your hard tail dialed in correctly Which led to you not being able to take certain lines. I can see where that might be limiting.


I have learned this is just as important on an hardtail as a FS. Tire pressure, Fork pressure, Fork rebound, handlebar selection, frame fit if really dialed in on your hardtail can make a world of difference. I am not getting any younger, few years back thought time for an FS, picked one up. Just like last time I had an FS, was nice to have some extra Cush is the back, but once again just does not give me the riding enjoyment like a hardtail does. When the bike craze hit because of our world affairs, I unloaded it since could get back what I paid for it.

Then I had thoughts maybe I should try one of these new XC aggressive FS, could be more my jam. But thought I am going to try a lighter hardtail build to add to my hardtail stable. I picked up the new Specialized chisel frame and built up. With all my years of figuring out hardtails Tire, rims, fork and cockpit setups I really went the extra mile to dial this one in. With the crazy frame compliance this has for a hardtail and dialing the rest perfectly in, I am just in wow of this bike and how comfortable it is and what it can handle. Unless I am going to a Bike Park or some unseen body aging happens, a FS wont be back in my mind anytime soon. And I live in the NC area where it is root after root on most trails.

But as the thread goes, there is no right or wrong answer to the OP question. It all depends on to many factors.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

dysfunction said:


> It's kind of interesting that so many feel that the only line you can take on a hardtail is the easiest.


On my XC hardtail I shy away from certain features. On my Honzo I always seek out the hard lines.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

*OneSpeed* said:


> On my XC hardtail I shy away from certain features. On my Honzo I always seek out the hard lines.


I think people really need to experience an aggressive, modern geo'd hardtail. At least twice.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

jeremy3220 said:


> It's weird coming from a bmx background seeing how insecure you guys are to have your ego hinge on 'taking certain lines' on your hardtails. Gotta take a break between hitting 3ft drops on your hardtail to go talk trash on the internet lol.


I think you are now projecting your own insecurities. I never called you out or insulted you, just confused by your statements since they are contradictory.

Anyhow there are no 3 ' drops on my bike path KOMs, the 160mm suspension at 40% sag takes out all the control joint bumps and occasional curbs. It's a little harder to hit that pace on the hardtail, but I manage. Gotta Send It! bruh to keep my crown.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

tick_magnet said:


> I've got no problems with people's goals. Everyone rides for a different reason and if your jam is just to have fun and not care about unpleasant part of it, more power to you. Who am I to argue with your goals?
> 
> But this is a thread about improving. Is your point that we are not adopting the correct life philosophy by pursuing this question?


No.
I'm saying that riding a hardtail won't necessarily make you a better rider.
There may be some marginal improvement by riding different types of bikes, but riding harder terrain/trails/obstacles will make you a better rider regardless of what bike you ride.
Ride harder stuff, set training goals, ride stuff that scares you, ride stuff that gasses you out, but if you ride the same terrain on a hardtail, you won't improve just because it's a hardtail. I don't mind earning skills through an occasional cracked rib, but I'll pass on a sore butt.
If you want to ride a hardtail for the different experience/fun, great. Don't expect that to make you better.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> It's weird coming from a bmx background seeing how insecure you guys are to have your ego hinge on 'taking certain lines' on your hardtails. Gotta take a break between hitting 3ft drops on your hardtail to go talk trash on the internet lol.


BMX bikes are the only hardtails worth riding.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> No.
> I'm saying that riding a hardtail won't necessarily make you a better rider.
> There may be some marginal improvement by riding different types of bikes, but riding harder terrain/trails/obstacles will make you a better rider regardless of what bike you ride.
> Ride harder stuff, set training goals, ride stuff that scares you, ride stuff that gasses you out, but if you ride the same terrain on a hardtail, you won't improve just because it's a hardtail. I don't mind earning skills through an occasional cracked rib, but I'll pass on a sore butt.
> If you want to ride a hardtail for the different experience/fun, great. Don't expect that to make you better.


I agree with you that for certain types of riding, a hardtail will not improve your skills. The only way to ride it is to ride it regardless of the bike. But for other types of riding, I believe it can. For example, for racing XC, even small roots can slow you down. These roots are not difficult to ride at all. A 9 year old on a Huffy can clear them. But if you are going race pace and you start to repeated hit those roots rather than avoid them, it adds up. It would be like running 30psi in your tires rather than 24 (which is optimal for me at my weight). And getting this sort of feedback is much more pronounced on a hardtail vs a full suspension bike. A FS slows you down less but you are still increasing rolling resistance even on that if you go repeated through them rather than around them.


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## austink26 (Jun 24, 2019)

*OneSpeed* said:


> You're confusing "faster" with "better". Of course an enduro bike is going to descend faster than a hardtail. This is not new information.


Define "better".

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

austink26 said:


> Define "better".


A better rider is one with a bigger toolbox of skills that allows them to ride a broader variety of trails.

Speed is just one component, and a fast rider is not necessarily the most skilled one.

The best riders are the ones who are both fast AND highly skilled.


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## austink26 (Jun 24, 2019)

Harold said:


> A better rider is one with a bigger toolbox of skills that allows them to ride a broader variety of trails.
> 
> Speed is just one component, and a fast rider is not necessarily the most skilled one.
> 
> The best riders are the ones who are both fast AND highly skilled.


Should have included more context. That was about "better" lines that are supposedly learned on a hardtail.

I agree about a what a better rider is.

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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

BRPHK said:


> When I told people I was thinking about going back to a hardtail, the most common comment was "it'll destroy your back! Just get a short travel full-sus trail bike."
> I'm 58, but in decent riding shape, and I've never had a back problem. The comments were mostly from guys in their 40s and 50s.
> What do you reckon? Am I crazy?


The biggest benefit I got from my first full suspension bike was that I stopped bending things all the time doing difficult downhills. I figure the same suspension that saves me from bending parts all the time, also reduces the beating my body takes on that kind of trail.

On the other hand, I have a sub-17lb stiff carbon gravel bike with no suspension at all and it does just fine on the trails I ride it on.

So you may be crazy, or completely lucid and sane. It depends on how fast you want to go and how big you want to go.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Harold said:


> The best riders are the ones who are both fast AND highly skilled.


That plus a dash of crazy to push the limits a bit harder than everyone else.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

austink26 said:


> Should have included more context. That was about "better" lines that are supposedly learned on a hardtail.


It's less about the "quality" of the lines per se, but how you ride them.

Taking somewhat of an extreme example, back when I was riding a FS fatbike, I rode all kinds of chunky, nasty lines. That bike smoothed a lot of stuff out (it was a shorter travel FS, but the tires did a lot, too), and I had to ride really nasty stuff to get more fun out of it. I didn't need any skill at all to ride a lot of things on that particular bike. All I had to do was pedal (or coast, if I was going downhill), because the tires and suspension did everything else. I actually had to tell people not to follow me (or, don't do what I do) because the capabilities of the bike let me ride things in a way that other people on other bikes would be deceived that they could just do the exact same thing that I could.

I went from that bike to a hardtail, and honestly, I ride the very same lines a lot of the time (because they're fun), but the WAY I ride them couldn't be more different. I'm certainly dipping into my toolbox of skills with the hardtail whereas I wasn't really doing much of that on the previous bike. I COULD have ridden the FS fatbike in the same way. but with less feedback from the trail, I got lazy about it.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Harold said:


> It's less about the "quality" of the lines per se, but how you ride them.
> 
> Taking somewhat of an extreme example, back when I was riding a FS fatbike, I rode all kinds of chunky, nasty lines. That bike smoothed a lot of stuff out (it was a shorter travel FS, but the tires did a lot, too), and I had to ride really nasty stuff to get more fun out of it. I didn't need any skill at all to ride a lot of things on that particular bike. All I had to do was pedal (or coast, if I was going downhill), because the tires and suspension did everything else. I actually had to tell people not to follow me (or, don't do what I do) because the capabilities of the bike let me ride things in a way that other people on other bikes would be deceived that they could just do the exact same thing that I could.
> 
> I went from that bike to a hardtail, and honestly, I ride the very same lines a lot of the time (because they're fun), but the WAY I ride them couldn't be more different. I'm certainly dipping into my toolbox of skills with the hardtail whereas I wasn't really doing much of that on the previous bike. I COULD have ridden the FS fatbike in the same way. but with less feedback from the trail, I got lazy about it.


So what have you done with the skill gained from riding a hardtail? I mean unless that translates to something else then the only skill riding a hardtail improved is your ability to ride a hardtail.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

You don't think this translates to full suspension? The same thing is true of riding single speed (which I just don't enjoy enough to do anymore), that changes things and forces you to think about how you ride too.

Then again, if you just bash through and rely on the suspension, I suppose it doesn't.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jeremy3220 said:


> So what have you done with the skill gained from riding a hardtail? I mean unless that translates to something else then the only skill riding a hardtail improved is your ability to ride a hardtail.


you act as though the skills learned on a hardtail are only applicable to a hardtail. they aren't. the same way that pedaling skills learned on platforms are not only applicable to platform pedals. they apply to clipless pedals, too.

the things I learn and use on the hardtail are definitely transferrable to a FS bike. continuing to keep a hardtail in the rotation will help keep those skills sharp when I do add a FS back into my selection of bikes.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Harold said:


> you act as though the skills learned on a hardtail are only applicable to a hardtail. they aren't. the same way that pedaling skills learned on platforms are not only applicable to platform pedals. they apply to clipless pedals, too.
> 
> the things I learn and use on the hardtail are definitely transferrable to a FS bike. continuing to keep a hardtail in the rotation will help keep those skills sharp when I do add a FS back into my selection of bikes.


I'm literally asking how have your skills translated? What's the tangible real world benefit? I'm not talking theoretical. What are you able to do now that you couldn't before getting the hardtail, are you faster? I was going to ask if you're faster/better on your FS but you don't currently have one so how do you know the skills are transferable?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jeremy3220 said:


> I'm literally asking how have your skills translated? What's the tangible real world benefit? I'm not talking theoretical. What are you able to do now that you couldn't before getting the hardtail, are you faster? I was going to ask if you're faster/better on your FS but you don't currently have one so how do you know the skills are transferable?


why wouldn't they be transferable? and yes, I am faster on my hardtail than I was on the fs bike I rode before it.

it's not about what I'm able to do now that I couldn't before. at least not in my case. I had the skills, for the most part, already. it's about actually using those skills more, and better, than I did on the FS bike. I pay more attention to the lines that I take, rather than just charging through crap. I focus more on wheel placement. I'm more dynamic when climbing tech. These things work on all bikes. it's not just theoretical.

all I've been saying this whole time is that it's an advantage of hardtails for skill development that the hardtail lets you feel the trail more, so the feedback you get is more obvious and instantaneous.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

dysfunction said:


> You don't think this translates to full suspension? The same thing is true of riding single speed (which I just don't enjoy enough to do anymore), that changes things and forces you to think about how you ride too.
> 
> Then again, if you just bash through and rely on the suspension, I suppose it doesn't.


 I'm not sure that there's much benefit to practicing on a hardtail specially. I mean sure if you learn to hit drops on a hardtail you can hit drops on a full suspension...but if you learn drops on a full suspension you can also hit drops on a full suspension.

I came from a bmx background. My first mtb was a hardtail. I noticed significant progression after getting a full suspension. I found lines I couldn't do before then once I realized it was possible could usually carry that over to the hardtail. I also found the same thing true for generally going faster. I feel that riding bmx helped a ton. Maybe riding a hardtail helped but I'm not sure. I feel that if it does help it's because you can learn the basics on a safer scale (smaller/slower).


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

You're missing the point. The more you ride, the more different types of bikes you ride, the more you're exposed to, all makes you a better rider.

You're not the only former bmxer here btw  and those skills, even with a completely different type of bike, transfer too.

I'm kind of done with the circular logic though, so I'm gonna go work on my credenza in the shop.. It's too hot to ride today, and the road up the mountain is stupid crazy.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Harold said:


> why wouldn't they be transferable?


Sorry if I'm not being clear. I'm not asking if the skills are transferable, I realize if you learn to bunny hop on a hardtail it will transfer to other bikes. I'm asking what actual tangible benefit you've gained from riding a hardtail instead of a FS. Maybe another way to think of this is, if this were a scientific study what result criteria would you use to determine if specifically riding a hardtail has extra benefits over a FS?

"yes, I am faster on my hardtail than I was on the fs bike I rode before it."

That could definitely be a benefit. You don't think you'd be as fast now if you had a FS? Maybe a more modern FS would have the same benefit? You don't think that most of the gains were from moving to WNC?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jeremy3220 said:


> Sorry if I'm not being clear. I'm not asking if the skills are transferable, I realize if you learn to bunny hop on a hardtail it will transfer to other bikes. I'm asking what actual tangible benefit you've gained from riding a hardtail instead of a FS. Maybe another way to think of this is, if this were a scientific study what result criteria would you use to determine if specifically riding a hardtail has extra benefits over a FS?
> 
> "yes, I am faster on my hardtail than I was on the fs bike I rode before it."
> 
> That could definitely be a benefit. You don't think you'd be as fast now if you had a FS? Maybe a more modern FS would have the same benefit? You don't think that most of the gains were from moving to WNC?


you're asking too much.

it's simply not possible to fully quantify all the aspects of mountain biking, or the characteristics of a trail, or how a rider is riding said trail to conduct a scientific study on this. A lot of this comes down to a pretty nebulous and very subjective "feel" of riding. tangible benefit of riding a hardtail? I'm having fun with it. That's hardly tangible, though. The only thing I have the ability to quantify is time. But I don't ride to be fast. I ride for fun. fun isn't necessarily fast for me. I have fun working on my skills. I also enjoy stopping and taking pictures of plants and animals I see on my rides. From what I understand about you and why you ride, my motivations are quite different from yours.

maybe some full suspension bikes would be as fun or more fun for me. I haven't ridden them yet, so I wouldn't know.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

dysfunction said:


> You're missing the point. The more you ride, the more different types of bikes you ride, the more you're exposed to, all makes you a better rider.
> 
> You're not the only former bmxer here btw  and those skills, even with a completely different type of bike, transfer too.
> 
> I'm kind of done with the circular logic though, so I'm gonna go work on my credenza in the shop.. It's too hot to ride today, and the road up the mountain is stupid crazy.


OP is specifically asking if hardtails make you a better rider which is what I'm talking about.

The question of do skills transfer from a hardtail is a different question. I'm not questioning that.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Harold said:


> you're asking too much.
> 
> it's simply not possible to fully quantify all the aspects of mountain biking, or the characteristics of a trail, or how a rider is riding said trail to conduct a scientific study on this. A lot of this comes down to a pretty nebulous and very subjective "feel" of riding. tangible benefit of riding a hardtail? I'm having fun with it. That's hardly tangible, though. The only thing I have the ability to quantify is time. But I don't ride to be fast. I ride for fun. fun isn't necessarily fast for me. I have fun working on my skills. I also enjoy stopping and taking pictures of plants and animals I see on my rides. From what I understand about you and why you ride, my motivations are quite different from yours.
> 
> maybe some full suspension bikes would be as fun or more fun for me. I haven't ridden them yet, so I wouldn't know.


So to answer OP's question if keeping a hardtail in the stable benefits skills retention/development you'd say you're not sure?

I'd say that I experienced objective benefits from picking up a FS. There were certain gaps that I didn't realize were possible for me until I got the FS.

I guess we're beating a dead horse at this point. I just haven't seen the hardtail skills development thing bear out in the real world.


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## austink26 (Jun 24, 2019)

I am with Jeremy on this. As someone who rode a hardtail and even raced them for 5 years, I can’t say that riding a hardtail will make you a better rider. 

The assertion that a hardtail makes you learn/choose “better” lines because the bike limits you is flaky to me because you can learn those exact same things on a fs bike. Just because you can plow more, doesn’t mean you can’t also learn smooth and efficient line choice too. You can also take terrible lines on a hardtail. At that point it is up to the rider if they want to do that or not. 

On the opposite end of that a fs can open up lines you wouldn’t even see or consider on a hardtail. Yeah I am sure world cup guys could hit them on a hardtail, but none of us here are that level and the world cup guys could probably do it on a full rigid single speed. 

If you need to rely on limiting equipment to force you to focus on lines, that is telling more of the rider than the benefits of a hardtail. You can also just lock out the rear suspension on a fs and get that same feedback from the trail. 


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I'm noticing an interesting dynamic in XC racing (I do all disciplines, except road racing). Most modern XC racing includes some pretty significant downhill sections and technical riding. Climbing and athletic ability still rule, but you want to make up time on all segments/sections obviously. Those of us that come from a DH-bike background, some pro-DH riders, some just long-time freeriders and DHers, ride all of our bikes like a DH bike (when going downhill). The weakest riders at DH in the XC race seem to be those that have never ridden much DH and for some of them I'm sure, no park riding or gnarly terrain stuff, which is made fun and do-able on a bigger bike, like a DH bike. At the elite levels, they don't suck at DH, but there's a definite edge to the ones that have more experience DHing. They throw their bikes around, air out over things, boost over things when it makes sense, etc. They also tend to set their bikes up for DH-like control, although it's nothing like a DH bike. At the other end of the spectrum, a totally "XC" bike is lighter and more efficient, but somewhere in the middle is the bike that is capable at both. This doesn't mean more than 4" of travel or some super slack HTA, it's a lot more subtle than that IME. It's the tire width and casing, the suspension spring rate and quality, stiff bike and chassis, handlebar width, etc., most all of which are independent of wheel travel and such.

My gut thought is that hardtails and more tame riding really holds people back. You gotta go to the other extreme to see what bikes "can do" and then work towards that goal on other platforms. The control issue with hardtails (no suspension, or only front) is just too much to overcome during medium and more gnarly DHs. You can survive, but you ain't shaving seconds or are doing it at such a cost that you risk a big wreck or your endurance.

Last night's race included several of our purpose-built DH trails and "for fun", they made one of the segments an "enduro" with prizes for that segment, even though it was an XC race. The XC guys still killed the DHs. I got something like 51 segments for one gnarly segment where my PR on my AM/enduro bike is 50s. I don't think anyone on an enduro bike "won" that segment, but I digress. I love these races on this side of the city though because they have long climbs and long/technical DHs, I can generally leverage those kinds of DHs to pick up some good time, and I did. The riders that seemed to be struggling the most with the DHs though were those that didn't come from a "DH" background. 

I was checking over my bike at the end though just to make sure I didn't crack it and damn that 34 was stiff as F with all the air pressure I had in it, but I still used all the travel and was able to just launch off stuff to flat.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

No. No they don't.

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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

A Unicycle enters the chat...


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

Ι think my final answer is that they don't make you a better rider. If there's a benefit it's that they force you to be an active rider. 

I still believe they make a great first bike because the difference between good and bad technique is very clearly defined on hardtail, so the novice rider soon realises what they have to do in order to progress. Just not the entry level XC type most of us learned on, these things are OTB machines.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I rode these lines on my hardtail yesterday (they're far worse-looking in person ?). "Better" riding is such a subjective idea. One thing I can say with certainty is that I am not limited by riding a hardtail, as to what I can ride. How fast - that's conditions dependent. On tamer trails I am just as fast and sometimes faster.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

No. They just make you a better hardtail rider.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

Yes, riding a hardtail makes you a better rider.

Full squish riders will be jealous of your ability to ride the same stuff as they do.
Your wallet will have more cash in it from savings on the bike and service.
Women will adore you, children will look up to you, men will want to be you.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

dont know if they make me better, but Ive been on one for about 5 yrs, and got no plans to go FS at all


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> No. They just make you a better hardtail rider.


So... then YES.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

*OneSpeed* said:


> So... then YES.




As much, but not any more, as riding any bike at all will make you a better rider.
That's just a function of time in the saddle and has nothing to do with type of bike.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

I love hardtails but I am not entirely sure that they make you a better rider. 

Now a BMX bike on the other will 100% improvement your riding imo. 

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## RideEverything (Jul 25, 2008)

Yes, hardtails make you a better rider.

I find that a hardtail helps refine my skills overall and I feel much smoother when getting back on my FS bike.

There has been some great points made but I find that this discussion here has veered into splitting hairs and debating semantics.
Yes, riding any bike regularly will make you better. My assumption is the OP was asking in comparison between an HT and an FS bike.

I start and end my bike seasons riding a hardtail. During the main part of the season I split my time but spend the majority of my time on my FS bike.
I find that starting on my HT helps focus my skill set and make it sharper as I roll into the heart of the season. As the season rolls to a close I like to get back on the HT fulltime to see if I can hang onto the FS lines that I was charging through the middle of the season. It takes some adjustments but it's fun to see if it translates.

I used to be someone who absolutely agreed with the sentiment that everyone should start on an HT. However, I realize that this was not right. I believe now that an HT is a great addition to someone who would like to help broaden their skills.
Before this point gets picked apart I'm not saying that beginners shouldn't start on an HT if that is their only choice or limit because of price point.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> As much, but not any more, as riding any bike at all will make you a better rider.
> That's just a function of time in the saddle and has nothing to do with type of bike.


I'm not sure about that. A common theme I've seen is mountain bikers having a bmx background and someone commenting 'it shows' or 'oh that makes sense'. Even watching mtb racing or slopestyle this comes up from the commentators. I ride with someone who is a former pro motocross and freestyle BMX rider, the guy was better than the vast majority of mtbers within 3 months. No one ever says "oh he's a hardtail rider? No wonder he's so good". There are guys who have been riding hardtails for 20 years that who never learned proper cornering technique and never get their tires off the ground.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> I'm not sure about that. A common theme I've seen is mountain bikers having a bmx background and someone commenting 'it shows' or 'oh that makes sense'. Even watching mtb racing or slopestyle this comes up from the commentators. I ride with someone who is a former pro motocross and freestyle BMX rider, the guy was better than the vast majority of mtbers within 3 months. No one ever says "oh he's a hardtail rider? No wonder he's so good". There are guys who have been riding hardtails for 20 years that who never learned proper cornering technique and never get their tires off the ground.


I agree, but also think it's more about the sorts of riding BMX riders tend to spend time at than the actual machine. 
Of course, the right tool for the job never hurts. Big goofy wheels tend to suck all the fun out of terrain that small wheels are a party on.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> I agree, but also think it's more about the sorts of riding BMX riders tend to spend time at than the actual machine.
> Of course, the right tool for the job never hurts.


Definitely more about how they spend their time but the BMX bike goes hand in hand with that to a certain extent.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

I'd suggest if you really want a "Make me a better rider" bike, you should go whole hog and get a single speed.

The single speed is my favorite way to build strength and speed on shorter rides and the fact that it's a hard tail means you focus a bit more on flow and carrying speed. It's also a hell of a lot of fun.

My full suspension is my bike for longer rides where having gears and suspension takes the edge off fatigue.

So often it's Singlespeed on weeknights, full suspension on weekends, though shorter weekend rides or big climb days during the week might change that up.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

jeremy3220 said:


> I'm not sure about that. A common theme I've seen is mountain bikers having a bmx background and someone commenting 'it shows' or 'oh that makes sense'. Even watching mtb racing or slopestyle this comes up from the commentators. I ride with someone who is a former pro motocross and freestyle BMX rider, the guy was better than the vast majority of mtbers within 3 months. _No one ever says "oh he's a hardtail rider? No wonder he's so good"_. There are guys who have been riding hardtails for 20 years that who never learned proper cornering technique and never get their tires off the ground.


This is a good point.

You don't gain skills by changing out equipment. You gain skills by learning new techniques and applying those over and over again. Having a hardtail and using it to practice and refine your techniques can make a big difference, but if you just go out on a hardtail and ride the same as you always do, you will not progress.

Pro BMX riders who transition to mountain biking have years of experience nailing landings on bikes with zero suspension.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> This is a good point.
> 
> You don't gain skills by changing out equipment. You gain skills by learning new techniques and applying those over and over again. Having a hardtail and using it to practice and refine your techniques can make a big difference, but if you just go out on a hardtail and ride the same as you always do, you will not progress.


Yup, particularly if it's mainly non- or light-technical XC riding that involves a lot of just sitting and pedaling. You can get fitter and maybe end up getting faster, but neither of those are really what I would consider things that qualify one as a "better"; IMO that's mainly determined by handling skills.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

jeremy3220 said:


> Definitely more about how they spend their time but the BMX bike goes hand in hand with that to a certain extent.


Yup cause what else are you going to do with it?

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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

93EXCivic said:


> Yup cause what else are you going to do with it?
> 
> Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


I used to take mine to ride singletrack back in the day. I do think it's easier to learn bunny hopping, manuals and general bike body separation on a BMX though.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

My first time mountain biking was on a 20” BMX bike. That was in about 1986.👌


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

I don't think HT's make you a better ride per se...

But, you need to 'ride better' on a hardtail 

They're just fun and engaging!!

Sent from my Asus Rog 3


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## Smithy678 (Jul 18, 2021)

I ride an ok budget hardtail while most of my friends have a full suspension. Most have had hardtails at one point or another. I think that hardtails teach you to appreciate the suspension and pick better lines because of the lack of suspension. But then again you can learn those lessons on a full suspension. I think that hardtails are good entry level bikes and then you can try full suspension and maybe switch back? It's up to you and what feels better.


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## Koban (Aug 8, 2021)

The time on my bike makes me a beter rider. Not the bike. I switch between a XC HT and trail fully and having fun is key ;-)


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)




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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

targnik said:


> I don't think HT's make you a better ride per se...
> 
> But, you need to 'ride better' on a hardtail
> 
> ...


&#8230;and rewarding. I always feel a huge sense of accomplishment smashing a techy ride I normally blast on my full suspension.


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## gsteitz (Sep 9, 2011)

Yes, but I firmly believe that riding a single speed will do the most to increase anyones riding ability.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

IMO it 100% makes you a better rider. I have a HT for local trails and my enduro for bike parks, and when I'm on my FS sometimes it feels like I'm using a cheat code. I don't think I'd be as good on my FS had I not first learned on my hardtail. 

That said, it doesn't mean that just riding a FS doesn't make you a better rider either. It's more about pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. Case in point, my riding buddy and I started at the same time. He's a bit hesitant usually and I'm the opposite. Yeah, I've taken some spills and spent a lot more on repairs than him, but I'm a better rider as a result. Doesn't mean he hasn't improved too though, and I never give him a hard time for being so timid, cause of that's what he's comfortable with and enjoys, that's really all that matters. 

But yeah, to answer your question directly, I do feel HTs make you a better rider.


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## CEB (Mar 17, 2005)

To ride a hardtail, it demands attention to picking the right line AND body positioning. No doubt working a HT will result in better ride skills, it kind of forces that to happen. Personally speaking, with 31 years riding dirt, I truly prefer and admire the advances in tech with trail bikes with full suspension


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Harold said:


> A lot of people ride that way....even full suspensions. It's painfully evident on trails where the trail continues to creep around exposed roots and rocks because people just avoid the bumpy stuff.
> 
> But I definitely agree that the most fun way to ride is to work the bike over. Maybe that means going slow with finesse. Maybe that means a pop that lets you air it out over the chunk (definitely faster than taking the smooth line around all of it). Riding smoothly does not mean taking the easy line all the time. It means conserving momentum. If done well, it means you're faster and probably with less effort expended (at least in pedaling). The sort of feedback a hardtail provides is when you do a poor job of riding smoothly through chunk. This is the kind of feedback that a FS can deaden and it takes a good deal more attunement to it to feel it and understand what it's doing to your ride.


You nailed it. I hear people say "better lines" and equate that with smoother ones. That's certainly not the case. For me the whole enjoyment of riding a hardtail is figuring out how to keep my momentum going through the rocks/roots/chunk, not around it.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

tick_magnet said:


> For sure, which is why I threw in the caveat that weekend warriors shouldn't worry about it. One practical problem I see though is how much most people neglect their suspension. I am not sure that a full suspension bike that hasn't seen any suspension service for three years is better than a hardtail. And I can count on one hand the number of people I know that service their suspension on a regular basis.


Boggles my mind how do many people don't even understand, let alone service and maintain their suspension. I've seen it first hand, people dropping $7k on a bike and think their suspension is set and forget. I've been using my X01 for 2 months and still haven't figured it out completely. That might not be a good thing, but the point is it takes time to properly adjust your suspension for optimal performance. Like you said, some people would be better off on hardtails cause their suspension is doing more harm than good.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

2021Mach6 said:


> You nailed it. I hear people say "better lines" and equate that with smoother ones. That's certainly not the case. For me the whole enjoyment of riding a hardtail is figuring out how to keep my momentum going through the rocks/roots/chunk, not around it.


Strip it down to a singlespeed, and the need to pay attention to momentum and efficiency is magnified even more.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Eric F said:


> Strip it down to a singlespeed, and the need to pay attention to momentum and efficiency is magnified even more.


I like the way you think Eric! I've considered but in PA where I am there's just too much uphill/downhill so I need the range. 10 years ago no doubt about it, and I'm in good shape for 40, but still ... I'd probably get a DJ though. They're building jump tracks just outside Philly where I live so might be a good excuse to get one!


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

2021Mach6 said:


> I like the way you think Eric! I've considered but in PA where I am there's just too much uphill/downhill so I need the range. 10 years ago no doubt about it, and I'm in good shape for 40, but still ... I'd probably get a DJ though. They're building jump tracks just outside Philly where I live so might be a good excuse to get one!


The riding in my area is more sustained climbs and twisty singletrack descents, which I can handle with 32x19 gearing. I'm 53.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

Eric F said:


> The riding in my area is more sustained climbs and twisty singletrack descents, which I can handle with 32x19 gearing. I'm 53.


Teach me master!


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

2021Mach6 said:


> Teach me master!


Step 1: Go ride your bike.

Lesson over.


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## Nick_M (Jan 16, 2015)

No it does not, 

however it does more damage to rear wheel, and less maintenance to your suspension;

I destroyed multiple rims on ht, and non on FS, despite riding and jumping much rougher terrain on FS

I enjoy riding bikes, and do not bother myself is it ht or FS

Riding bmx or dirt jumper or trial bike improve your handling skills, however due to terrain you ride on those bikes, not because of bike itself

You can be better rider just pushing you limits, on any bike 


Cheers


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Eric F said:


> Strip it down to a singlespeed, and the need to pay attention to momentum and efficiency is magnified even more.


And get rid of the wagon wheels too.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

2021Mach6 said:


> You nailed it. I hear people say "better lines" and equate that with smoother ones. That's certainly not the case. For me the whole enjoyment of riding a hardtail is figuring out how to keep my momentum going through the rocks/roots/chunk, not around it.


Quoted so that people will see it twice. So much this.

The lines I choose on my hardtail are still the fastest lines on my full suspension bike. The difference is, the hardtail reminds me when I make a mistake. It is about picking the lines that will provide the least amount of wheel/tire hang up. It is about using depressions and rollovers to generate speed-and the hardtail demands that you do it correctly, but then rewards you. That learning can then be extended to a full suspension bike.

I don't know anybody that rides a hardtail on the trails I ride though. They likely don't have one or think it's possible.


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## Mounttesa (Aug 21, 2017)

cookieMonster said:


> I don’t know anybody that rides a hardtail on the trails I ride though. They likely don’t have one or think it’s possible.


I was thinking to myself that I wish you could show us for some stoke, but, I found this guy instead, so I think I'm good. Holy crap.






Good HT vids are hard to find. I think that one is pretty good. That and the guy that rode down Whistler... this one...






No GoPro in either of those!


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Mounttesa said:


> I was thinking to myself that I wish you could show us for some stoke, but, I found this guy instead, so I think I'm good. Holy crap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the best pic I can find. I ride alone most of the time so I don’t have many pics of myself. Hard to tell in the picture but I am on my Honzo ESD. That first video is awesome. I’m more of a steep tech guy though.


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## mtnbikeracer76 (Sep 27, 2021)

I've had FS, hardtails and a full rigid single speed. The FS was more of a point and go, not to worried about the trail. Hardtails taught me to pick a slightly smoother line, but I still had a suspension fork to take the brunt. My full rigid SS was magic. I learned how to be very smooth, it's all about keeping up momentum. And being smooth on a SS is, I would say, at least 1/2 of the skill required to ride a SS effectively.

I believe riding a full rigid SS is the way to go if you want to improve as a rider. You rely less on the actual bike, and focus more on the trail, finding the smoothest line possible to go fast. During the 2 years I rode SS, I became a much better rider overall, including climbing strength and recovering faster after a hard effort because it's either you do it or you don't. There is no bailout gear.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

cookieMonster said:


> Quoted so that people will see it twice. So much this.
> 
> The lines I choose on my hardtail are still the fastest lines on my full suspension bike. The difference is, the hardtail reminds me when I make a mistake. It is about picking the lines that will provide the least amount of wheel/tire hang up. It is about using depressions and rollovers to generate speed—and the hardtail demands that you do it correctly, but then rewards you. That learning can then be extended to a full suspension bike.
> 
> I don’t know anybody that rides a hardtail on the trails I ride though. They likely don’t have one or think it’s possible.


BITD the regional DH series around here had a hardtail class for a few seasons.
A few buddies of mine used run it. After it went away, one of them continued to race and do well in regular DH Expert class on his old Imperial (from when Evil was actually Evil) at northeast venues like Plattekill, Snow and Attitash. Usually in sweatpants with a few beers in him. They don't make 'em like they used to LOL!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> BITD the regional DH series around here had a hardtail class for a few seasons.
> A few buddies of mine used run it. After it went away, one of them continued to race and do well in regular DH Expert class on his old Imperial (from when Evil was actually Evil) at northeast venues like Plattekill, Snow and Attitash. Usually in sweatpants with a few beers in him. They don't make 'em like they used to LOL!


Whoa. What size is that front wheel??


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Whoa. What size is that front wheel??


26 x 3
I think the angle of the pic and the size of the fork is making look like a 24".

I still have a few of those Gazzis kicking around the shed.
Along with a couple Monster T's LOL!


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

I don’t know if it’s already been brought up but IMO a HT makes it easier to learn how to wheelie, manual, and bunny hop which…


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## DeoreDX (Jul 28, 2007)

I ride single speed hardtail or a full suspension trail bike. I'll go against the grain and say no it does not make me a better rider. It makes me a more cognizant rider. I have to pay attention different things riding the hardtail than when I'm riding my full sus trail bike. I choose different lines depending on my equipment. Smooth line I take with a hard tail isn't necessarily the fastest line. Hard tail might give me one smooth line choice I might have 3-4 different line choices with the full suspension. I have to judge the multiple line choices and understand what my suspension can absorb and evaluate which of multiple lines will be faster. Sure there are features that the suspension can absorb and I can ignore but does that make me a better rider? I get more traction with the suspension which equates to more speed which in turn gives me less reaction time and in some cases makes traction an issue where it wouldn't be on a slower bike. Maintaining momentum is something I do on every bike regardless of how many gears or how much suspension it has. I like riding the single speed hardtail because it can make a somewhat easy trail more engaging. I don't feel it makes me a better rider, though the single speed aspect does force me to use more core power and leg strength which makes me stronger when I'm using a geared bike but that's outside of the scope of this discussion.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

But you learned to pick different lines, which is the smoothest, which is the fastest.. that's valuable. I know a whole bunch of riders who can't determine the differences, and have never had to. 

It's a pointless argument anyway.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Pepe Sylvia said:


> I don’t know if it’s already been brought up but IMO a HT makes it easier to learn how to wheelie, manual, and bunny hop which…


Which according to many in this thread, would mean that learning these on an FS instead will make you a 'better rider' by virtue of it being harder.

🤪


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

this thread, like every other "does this make you better at that" thread, its a waste of time

ride it, love it, be a d!ck about it


pretty much this thread really........


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> Which according to many in this thread, would mean that learning these on an FS instead will make you a 'better rider' by virtue of it being harder.
> 
> 🤪


😂 

I’ll never understand why the HT doesn’t get more love especially with all the dank 2.6-2.8 inch tires, CushCore, not to mention how ridiculously dialed in the slack bikes are in terms of size and handling IMO.

But then again between my HT and Enduro I wonder why there’s trail bikes shrug.

I also think the need to recognize and process line choices riding a hardtail aggressively mandates will 100% make you a better/faster rider.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

cmg said:


> this thread, like every other "does this make you better at that" thread, its a waste of time
> 
> ride it, love it, be a d!ck about it
> 
> ...


Whine about it.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Whine about it.


fight me


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

cmg said:


> this thread, like every other "does this make you better at that" thread, its a waste of time
> 
> ride it, love it, be a d!ck about it
> 
> ...


Except nobody here has been a dick about it.


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

cookieMonster said:


> Except nobody here has been a dick about it.


This has gone for 9 pages and is on MTBR. I doubt your claim. Then again, hardtails make you smarter, stronger, feel younger, increase libido, and have better poops.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

BadgerOne said:


> This has gone for 9 pages and is on MTBR. I doubt your claim. Then again, hardtails make you smarter, stronger, feel younger, increase libido, and have better poops.


That last one, that's important.


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

cookieMonster said:


> Except nobody here has been a dick about it.


Yet 🤷‍♂️


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

DeoreDX said:


> It makes me a more cognizant rider.
> 
> though the single speed aspect does force me to use more core power and leg strength which makes me stronger when I'm using a geared bike but that's outside of the scope of this discussion.



Both of these make you a better rider. Period. Mentally and physically.


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## Blue Dot Trail (May 30, 2018)

Depends how you judge ”better”, but I would say it definitely makes you choose lines better. I started when there was no suspension, front or rear, and it helped me develop my pathfinding skills. Every boulder field becomes a puzzle that you can’t just blast over at speed. Same goes for drops and climbs. Suspension makes it easier. You can get away with a lot more. (That isn’t meant to be judgmental).


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

When did this website get a hardtail forum?


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

richj8990 said:


> When did this website get a hardtail forum?


They merged multiple sub-forums into one big one.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> When did this website get a hardtail forum?


Sometime in the year + that you've been gone.


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## Vandals (Oct 21, 2018)

unrooted said:


> do I really think riding a HT will make me a better rider, or possibly cause the local trails to feel less boring so that it makes the trails more interesting on a HT so I’ll be more inclined to ride them...


GCN basically started their “reasons to buy a gravel bike” video with that logic. Mountain bikes have gotten so good that riding trails is kinda boring. And I kind of believe them. When I had no suspension, I wanted a bike with a fork. Then a suspension seat post. Then a full suspension. Then a better full suspension. Now I’m back on a hard tail with big tires. I like the simplicity of just setting tire and fork pressures and then riding. 

Basically, just buy the bike that you are excited to go ride.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Vandals said:


> Basically, just buy the bike that you are excited to go ride.


By far the best advice for anyone not racing.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Vandals said:
Basically, just buy the bike that you are excited to go ride.




Carl Mega said:


> By far the best advice for anyone not racing.


Or...build a racing bike and go ride...and appreciate the lightness.


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## Vandals (Oct 21, 2018)

richj8990 said:


> Vandals said:
> Basically, just buy the bike that you are excited to go ride.
> 
> 
> ...


If a racing bike is what it takes, then do it. Just get out and ride.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Vandals said:


> GCN basically started their “reasons to buy a gravel bike” video with that logic. Mountain bikes have gotten so good that riding trails is kinda boring. And I kind of believe them. When I had no suspension, I wanted a bike with a fork. Then a suspension seat post. Then a full suspension. Then a better full suspension. Now I’m back on a hard tail with big tires. I like the simplicity of just setting tire and fork pressures and then riding.
> 
> Basically, just buy the bike that you are excited to go ride.


But you have to admit that riding a gravel bike on a real trail is not going to be very enjoyable. I've seen it. It's painful. The grimaces and worry on their faces when they go down something at 6-8 mph that we would not even think twice about. There is local Strava chatter when some pro does a new 50-mile offroad loop. One of the main questions is: can I take my gravel bike on it? If the pro took their hardtail or FS bike on it, chances are they are going to say no way, do not even try it. Because they themselves would not do it. That's a very wise word of warning from the best to all the mortals. 

You want excitement on the trail without killing yourself: XC hardtail, 27.5" frame, relatively skinny tires. Never a dull moment downhill...but you can still avoid crashing unlike a gravel bike. 

And the original question: does a hardtail make you a better rider. The answer depends on: better for...what. If you want to go faster down steeper trails, probably not. You hear and read all these experts/pros trying flat pedals, trying out a 27.5" frame after riding a 29" for years, or...trying a hardtail and they say that they relearned certain skills or learned new skills. OK. But then what. Are they going to stick with those, or will they go back to what they rode before? And if/when they go back to their older setup, will they retain anything useful from when they learned on something they are not going to use again for a while if ever? If they relearned to pick better lines with a hardtail, then went back to full-suspension, would that stick, or would they go back to plowing through chunk sitting down on the seat? Probably the latter, because they simply don't need to pick the best line anymore. Just like if you have a plus tire vs. a skinny tire up front. If you are on an HT and come across a rock garden with a 2.4 tire or narrower, it's going to be dinking and dunking your way through it. With a 2.8, it's hello monster trucking straight through the middle. I have three front tires on different wheels: 2.4, 2.6, 2.8. Am I going to learn how to turn a 2.8 by using a 2.4? No. But I sure can plow through stuff better than a 2.4. If I turned a 2.4 as hard as I sometimes have to turn a 2.8, I'd probably go right off the trail. But I can turn a 2.4 much easier on tight turns. Different setup, different riding style. 

That's the real question. I mean...if someone rode a gravel bike or a rigid mountain bike and learned not to crash offroad, yes that makes them a better rider...on that bike. Likewise, if someone rides a hardtail for a long time and learns all kinds of stuff on it to end up doing pretty decently, then they are a better rider...on that type of bike. If they go to full suspension, they then have to deal with learning a new set of variables; some hardtail skills may carry over, some may not be applicable. Conversely, if the go from FS to HT, same thing. They learn something new, they may forget something they don't use/need anymore. It's kind of like asking would learning a manual transmission make you a better driver with an automatic transmission. Well...probably not worse! But probably not better either.


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## Vandals (Oct 21, 2018)

Gravel bikes don’t go on all trails. More about riding something that takes more skill than just rolling over obstacles. Otherwise I agree that most riders won’t take all of the same tricks for riding a hard tail and use them on their FS downhill park bikes. 

That’s why I suggest getting the bike that makes you excited to ride.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

You know I may have to modify my previous statement about hardtails not making someone a better rider. Last week I was going up a trail system, saw another dude coming down several hundred feet away. So I got off my bike and started walking on the side of the trail, pretty much off of it. He comes charging down around a blind turn of course right when I'm there in front of the turn, so I try to get to the right, off the trail as much as I can. The left side is dirt, the right side where I am is irregular embedded rocks and then a ledge. Take a guess which is the correct line. But the right is his line...WTF!?!? So he just stops in time and doesn't crash into me. I said I'm sorry but I thought you'd take the normal line (you know, the one that's ON the trail and not the mini-rock garden one next to a ledge). He snickers and points down to my feet and says that's the correct line to take. Little does he know that this -8% segment is is my only current DH KOM, by 30 seconds. I didn't bring that up of course, and I did feel bad for forcing him to stop. He was OK with it, brightened up a bit for a couple more sentences and left on his full suspension bike. That is obviously not the right line to take. But he was close to the bottom and wanted to get a little Enduro Bro rush off the last rock garden on the trail before the end. Of course I didn't know that riding up before he did it. But trust me it's not the right line. It's a line he can pick because he can, because it's harder, it's more of a cheap little thrill, but it's not faster. When I went back down 25 min later I briefly looked at both lines and I'm like...nope, that it just not correct. It's a thrill line but not the right line.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

This is the problem with declaring something as "the right" anything.

It's entirely subjective.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

richj8990 said:


> You know I may have to modify my previous statement about hardtails not making someone a better rider. Last week I was going up a trail system, saw another dude coming down several hundred feet away. So I got off my bike and started walking on the side of the trail, pretty much off of it. He comes charging down around a blind turn of course right when I'm there in front of the turn, so I try to get to the right, off the trail as much as I can. The left side is dirt, the right side where I am is irregular embedded rocks and then a ledge. Take a guess which is the correct line. But the right is his line...WTF!?!? So he just stops in time and doesn't crash into me. I said I'm sorry but I thought you'd take the normal line (you know, the one that's ON the trail and not the mini-rock garden one next to a ledge). He snickers and points down to my feet and says that's the correct line to take. Little does he know that this -8% segment is is my only current DH KOM, by 30 seconds. I didn't bring that up of course, and I did feel bad for forcing him to stop. He was OK with it, brightened up a bit for a couple more sentences and left on his full suspension bike. That is obviously not the right line to take. But he was close to the bottom and wanted to get a little Enduro Bro rush off the last rock garden on the trail before the end. Of course I didn't know that riding up before he did it. But trust me it's not the right line. It's a line he can pick because he can, because it's harder, it's more of a cheap little thrill, but it's not faster. When I went back down 25 min later I briefly looked at both lines and I'm like...nope, that it just not correct. It's a thrill line but not the right line.


What does this have to do with hardtails making people better riders?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> What does this have to do with hardtails making people better riders?


Obviously, he has one, he's the best, therefore:

You must not remember when it was scientifically proven here by some hokey back-of -the-napkin math that riding his local trails on a singlespeed is physically unpossible, regardless of the fact that people do it all the time?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> I briefly looked at both lines and I'm like...nope, that it just not correct. It's a thrill line but not the right line.


The 'right' line for novice Strava dorks isn't necessarily the 'right' line for everyone.

Repeat that to yourself until it sinks in. 🤪


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I’d have probably picked the chunky rock line too


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nat said:


> I’d have probably picked the chunky rock line too


That would be not correct. 
You need to spend more time on the internet, you might learn something.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> That would be not correct.
> You need to spend more time on the internet, you might learn something.


If I'm going to do it I may as well do it well, I reckon.



richj8990 said:


> That is obviously not the right line to take. But he was close to the bottom and wanted to get a little Enduro Bro rush off the last rock garden on the trail before the end. Of course I didn't know that riding up before he did it. But trust me it's not the right line. It's a line he can pick because he can, because it's harder, it's more of a cheap little thrill, but it's not faster. When I went back down 25 min later I briefly looked at both lines and I'm like...nope, that it just not correct. It's a thrill line but not the right line.


Faster time on Strava vs. harder and more thrilling? 9 times out of 10 the latter choice is the "right" line for me but I'd love to see a pic of the corner you're talking about.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Line choice: am I in it to go fast, or have fun? I'm not racing. I ride alone, don't have tracking apps, why would I pick the least enjoyable line? 

Trick question: there is no correct answer, for some, going fast is the fun. For others, finding a way through the rough stuff is fun. 

Answer to the question of whether a hardtail will make you a better rider: Yes. Every riding experience improves your skill set. BMX teaches pump skills, hardtail teaches the benefits of smoothness, SS teaches you momentum, road/gravel biking imparts endurance, suspension imparts confidence to crush (caveat: I've never tried full sus, don't know about what suspension teaches, you can fill this with whatever you desire).
Let me flip the burden of proof the other way: prove that riding a hardtail won't make you better.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Let me flip the burden of proof the other way: prove that riding a hardtail won't make you better.


This very statement is evidence you don't actually understand what 'burden of proof' means. LOL.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

No, I get it. Typically, the burden of proof rests with the one making the claim, but OP didn't make any such claim, it was posed as a question without a definite answer.


Reaperactual said:


> Do hardtails make you a better rider? No, it just requires a slightly different technique/riding style, line choice, etc...





Gumby_rider said:


> Hardtails don’t make you a better rider but full suspensions can make you think you are a better rider than you really are.





Chuck Johnson said:


> Hardtails make you more sore, not mo betta.


Just quickly grabbed a few examples from page one.
I wanted people who answered no to provide evidence, thus the burden of proof comment. Lotta claims, not so much evidence.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MattiThundrrr said:


> I wanted people who answered no to provide evidence, thus the burden of proof comment. Lotta claims, not so much evidence.


I guess the first thing you'd have to have is an agreed upon definition of what constitutes a 'better rider'.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> I guess the first thing you'd have to have is an agreed upon definition of what constitutes a 'better rider'.


Per example:  🤣


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

unrooted said:


> I rode hardtails for a LONG time before I rode my first fully suspended bike (1990-2013) so I keep thinking that I really need to have a HT in my shed along with my “full sus enduro rig” . But I don’t really know if I can decide why I want it: do I really think riding a HT will make me a better rider, or possibly cause the local trails to feel less boring so that it makes the trails more interesting on a HT so I’ll be more inclined to ride them...or if I really just want to impress people by showing them that I can “ride the gnar” on a hardy tail...
> 
> but I won’t get one because i’m more scared that l won’t actually be able to impress anyone with my lousy riding skills???!


No it does not, its the rider


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Your line selection is more skilled on a full rigid on natural trails than a full suss on groomed flow trails.


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## Reaperactual (Apr 20, 2020)

MattiThundrrr said:


> No, I get it. Typically, the burden of proof rests with the one making the claim, but OP didn't make any such claim, it was posed as a question without a definite answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My comment is an opinion on a forum to a 'question posed without a definitive answer' so there is no definitive proof, just opinions, imo. 😉


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

To me, it seems like the "yes" side is in the lead. Could be confirmation bias though.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

milehi said:


> Your line selection is more skilled on a full rigid on natural trails than a full suss on groomed flow trails.


So it would stand to reason that riding a 26" bike will make you a better rider than a 29" bike. And a 24" or 20" better still.

Which of your choices would probably lead someone to be more skilled at jumping? Or cornering at speed?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

So, too much suspension makes things too easy, but...

The whole thing's just funny.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> So it would stand to reason that riding a 26" bike will make you a better rider than a 29" bike. And a 24" or 20" better still.
> 
> Which of your choices would probably lead someone to be more skilled at jumping? Or cornering at speed?


To me, I think you need different skills to ride a 20"/24" vs 26/27.5 vs a 29er.

And yes, I agree that BMX (20" or 24" wheels) would be a better way to learn bike handling because they're not as forgiving in their geometry.

I have a steel hardtail I'm building, a trail bike, and a DH bike. While they're all mountain bikes, they are for different purposes for me. That doesn't mean the skills doesn't translate (they absolutely do), but the bigger wheels and/or bigger suspension/slacker angles makes mistakes more forgiving. I'm also toying with the idea of getting a DJ for getting a better feel for twitchiness and being able to ride in skateparks and urban.

One of my friends told me a few years ago, "It it were up to you, everyone would learn on a rigid 24" wheels." He's not wrong. 

The choice for bike skills is more related to smaller chainstays. Easier to jump and corner than something with longer ones, but longer ones seem to be more popular today. As someone learning to jump, it's much easier to get the bike up in the air with the shorter chainstays than the longer ones in my experience.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

stripes said:


> To me, I think you need different skills to ride a 20"/24" vs 26/27.5 vs a 29er.
> And yes, I agree that BMX (20" or 24" wheels) would be a better way to learn bike handling because they're not as forgiving in their geometry.


One thing for sure, most of the best riders come from BMX backgrounds of some sort. 
It has something to do with the bikes, but more to do with the riding itself and the things that BMX riders prioritize.

I'd say someone choosing to ride a hardtail because they think it makes them a better rider, but then rocking big dumb wheels on it is defeating their own purpose.  






.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Serious questions from a hardtail rider who has never ridden full suspension. Does the ability to plow negate the need for line choice? Would the smoother line still be faster on a suspended bike, regardless of if the bike can absorb the impacts for you? Does plowing bumps slow down the bike to a noticeable amount vs smooth rolling?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Serious questions from a hardtail rider who has never ridden full suspension. Does the ability to plow negate the need for line choice? Would the smoother line still be faster on a suspended bike, regardless of if the bike can absorb the impacts for you? Does plowing bumps slow down the bike to a noticeable amount vs smooth rolling?


No

Sometimes

Depends


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> One thing for sure, most of the best riders come from BMX backgrounds of some sort.
> It has something to do with the bikes, but more to do with the riding itself and the things that BMX riders prioritize.
> 
> I'd say someone choosing to ride a hardtail because they think it makes them a better rider, but then rocking big dumb wheels on it is defeating their own purpose.


I think hardtails can definitely find some things you can fix in your bad riding habits (sitting while on a tech section, crappy pedaling), but that's not why I got one. I love my Balance, but there's some trails it's just not fun on for me. I wanted something for riding deeper/shitty litter trails with bigger tires, and something that's good for some of the smoother XC stuff out here.

Will I ride it on chunk? Not my first choice, but it's also my backup to my full suspension trail bike. I've had my share of injuries where riding a hardtail on a lot of chunk really doesn't feel good. 

Also, since I'd learned to ride on a hardtail (and as a kid a BMX), I still find there's something fun about a hardtail  But I went with one that can be as forgiving and compliant as possible, because that's how I roll.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Serious questions from a hardtail rider who has never ridden full suspension. Does the ability to plow negate the need for line choice? Would the smoother line still be faster on a suspended bike, regardless of if the bike can absorb the impacts for you? Does plowing bumps slow down the bike to a noticeable amount vs smooth rolling?


No, yes, it depends.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Serious questions from a hardtail rider who has never ridden full suspension. Does the ability to plow negate the need for line choice? Would the smoother line still be faster on a suspended bike, regardless of if the bike can absorb the impacts for you? Does plowing bumps slow down the bike to a noticeable amount vs smooth rolling?


I don't think so. Good riders pick good lines.

I'm still working on picking good lines, so don't take my word for it 

I find on a full suspension, I'm going to pick lines just as much as I would on a hardtail. Would I pick the same lines? Don't know. I haven't ridden a hardtail in a few years, so I'm about to find out.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Every time I hop on my c.2005 hardtail I think to myself, "How the hell did I ever ride this thing??? This bike is dangerous."


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Serious questions from a hardtail rider who has never ridden full suspension. Does the ability to plow negate the need for line choice? Would the smoother line still be faster on a suspended bike, regardless of if the bike can absorb the impacts for you? Does plowing bumps slow down the bike to a noticeable amount vs smooth rolling?


Much of what you apparently think it's like to ride an FS bike is obviously based on internet drivel.
I would say that it's inarguable that for you personally, actually spending some time on an FS bike would make you a better (and far more informed) rider than you currently are.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Much of what you apparently think it's like to ride an FS bike is obviously based on internet drivel.
> I would say that it's inarguable that for you personally, actually spending some time on an FS bike would make you a better (and far more informed) rider than you currently are.


Which, was my whole point a while ago.. when I said that simply riding different style bikes made you a better rider


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> Much of what you apparently think it's like to ride an FS bike is obviously based on internet drivel.
> I would say that it's inarguable that for you personally, actually spending some time on an FS bike would make you a better (and far more informed) rider than you currently are.


^ Right there

All the internet reading in the world isn't going to teach you what doing will.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Serious questions from a hardtail rider who has never ridden full suspension. Does the ability to plow negate the need for line choice? Would the smoother line still be faster on a suspended bike, regardless of if the bike can absorb the impacts for you? Does plowing bumps slow down the bike to a noticeable amount vs smooth rolling?


The bike is simply more capable. No matter what bike you're on there will be some limit to your line option and some line will be fastest. A full suspension can open up more line choice options. Maybe it will allow you to plow straight over a rough section you didn't feel comfortable hitting on the hardtail. You ultimately still have to figure which line is faster (if that's the goal). 

There's nothing magical about riding a hardtail that allows you to pick faster lines, it just limits your options is all. It might be nice to imagine full suspension riders sat down haphazardly slowly bumbling through the trail while hardtail riders are slicing around the rocks like a ninja weilding a katana but that's not realistic.


I do think riding BMX teaches precision and control but it's not for everyone (especially when you're over 30).


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I have a few bikes and I’ll pick my lines according to the capabilities of each bike. On my hardtail I have fewer line choices because the burlier lines are likely to cause a flat tire or a crash. On my DH bike I can ride the harder lines and bigger features but it takes no less skill. Probably more so.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

slapheadmofo said:


> Much of what you apparently think it's like to ride an FS bike is obviously based on internet drivel.
> I would say that it's inarguable that for you personally, actually spending some time on an FS bike would make you a better (and far more informed) rider than you currently are.


The reason I asked was because I don't know what it is like at all. I agree that more experience would make me more knowledgeable and skilled, but as I don't want a second mortgage, I don't see it happening. It's why I'm here in the Hardtail forum. Thank you for the response.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

jeremy3220 said:


> There's nothing magical about riding a hardtail that allows you to pick faster lines, it just limits your options is all.


Agree. The bike itself won't magically pick lines for you. However, the right line will reward you physically with a smoother ride thus (ideally) training the rider to choose better. I was curious if that line choice would translate to faster on the full sus, didn't mean to imply that there is less skill required or anything.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

MattiThundrrr said:


> However, the right line will reward you physically with a smoother ride thus (ideally) training the rider to choose better.


It just trains you to pick the best line for the bike you're on at the moment. If you're riding the same lines on an enduro bike as you are on your hardtail then you're not using the bike to its full potential.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Agree. The bike itself won't magically pick lines for you. However, the right line will reward you physically with a smoother ride thus (ideally) training the rider to choose better. I was curious if that line choice would translate to faster on the full sus, didn't mean to imply that there is less skill required or anything.


"Right" "smoother" "better" "faster"

There is no single 'right' or 'better' line for every rider.. 

The 'smoother' line is not always the 'faster' line.

Not every rider cares about being 'faster' or is always looking for the 'smoother' line. 

In many cases, there are rougher looking lines that actually end up riding smoother and faster and the people who are always trying to find 'smooth' ways around rough areas never figure it out. 
That's where some time on a suspension bike can open up the eyes of someone who has only ridden hardtails as to what they've been conditioned to think 'smoothest and fastest' should be and what it actually is. 'Over' is usually more fun than 'around', but is likely to require (and build) more bike handling skill as well.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ spot on


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

@Nat and @slapheadmofo those last two comments are great. Really helped getting it through my thick skull. Thanks for taking the time.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MattiThundrrr said:


> @Nat and @slapheadmofo those last two comments are great. Really helped getting it through my thick skull. Thanks for taking the time.


I remember when I got my first real DH bike, way back around Y2K, and started hitting the lifts regularly.
That was long before the whole trend of building DH trails to look like slanted BMX tracks came around, and there was tons of really gnarly, rock and root strewn fall-line trails.
Riding those trails regularly on a big squishy bike paid huge dividends when it came to riding technical stuff back at home on my trail bike, as I started looking at things in a whole different way. 
Opened up options that I never would've even seen otherwise.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Agree. The bike itself won't magically pick lines for you. However, the right line will reward you physically with a smoother ride thus (ideally) training the rider to choose better. I was curious if that line choice would translate to faster on the full sus, didn't mean to imply that there is less skill required or anything.


I think I said this earlier in the thread, but for the majority of the time, I take exactly the same lines on my full suspension bike as I do on my hardtail.

Whether it’s faster or not depends on the roughness of the line. Multiple square-edged hits usually make the full suspension faster, because the suspension facilitates less wheel hangup. On smooth trails, I’m often faster on the hardtail.

I can only think of a handful of spots on our local trails where I intentionally ride a different line on the dually though, and they’re not necessarily scary lines at all — just really rough and the line happens to track through the inside of a corner, or “straightens” the corner a little. I only avoid those spots on the hardtail because speed is high and I don’t want to damage my rear wheel or get a flat.

On really rowdy, steep tech, I tend to ride the exact same lines — because there’s only one line doable in a lot of cases, hehe. I do tend to ride questionable lines on my enduro bike first though, and later ride them on my hardtail. Honestly, modern hardtails are closer to the DH bikes I used to race than they are to what a lot of people think of when they hear “hardtail.” The only limiting factor is the lack of rear suspension, but your legs have quite a bit of travel if you use them right.😉. The front end of the bike, tires, brakes, and geo can handle anything a DH bike can.

FWIW, I don’t really care if hardtails make you a better rider. I’ve always had at least one and started out full rigid, but embraced suspension too when it became available. I’ve been riding both for so long I guess I don’t really know.


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## durask (Nov 16, 2020)

If you really want to impress people, this is the way.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

durask said:


> If you really want to impress people, this is the way.


The ultimate hardtail: 1/2 a bike.


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