# Are emtb's proliferating in your vicinity?



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Thought that emtb's might start showing up in socal since the manufacturers seemed to be trying to make them the next big thing. However, they're basically non-existent. Are there any areas where the numbers are growing? Not attempting to initiate an argument about legality or propose poaching. Just wondering whether anybody sees any.


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## JRT_in_WMass (Jul 22, 2013)

I have only seen a few bicycles locally that have been augmented with electric powered auxiliary propulsion, but I hope to see those become very much more popular and widely accepted. That might help to get more fat adults off the couch and out where they will get at least a little exercise.

Personally I have no business interest in the subject.


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## boogsie (Oct 20, 2011)

Seem to be more prolific here in Perth.
Just back from a ride and mates were demoing bikes at a specialised demo day, even the hardcore haters came back smiling after a Levo demo . Been seeing quite a few about, though we don't seem to have the same trails restrictions as in the U.S.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

None, they're prohibited on bike only trails.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> None, they're prohibited on bike only trails.


Same here. None on the trails as they are all non-motorized only. I have seen them on the road and MUPs in small, but significant numbers.


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## kneecap (Dec 20, 2003)

not seen a single one. And I live in the bicycle hub of Calif. Mtn bike action, DVO suspension, used to have marzocchi here as well. How many does anyone expect to see at pricing from 6 to 10 thousand? I don't imagine we'll ever be over run with toys that are that expensive. By the time I have to be concerned with e bikes I'll probably be done with cycling.


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Haven't seen a single one on the single track trails. Huntington Beach is filed with them on the boardwalk and related flatland bike trails. Most are tourist rentals. Curious what is happening in Mammoth and Tahoe areas? I haven't been to either in a long time.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Up in Washington State, I ain't seen a single ebike on thevtrails other than my wife's, maybe chicken little was wrong....

Can't really count ebikes on the road, clearly those are motorcycles


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> Up in Washington State, I ain't seen a single ebike on thevtrails other than my wife's, maybe chicken little was wrong....


It's early days yet. I rarely see a fatbike and very few plus bikes where I ride. Doesn't mean they don't exist.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I travel quit a bit with my e bike riding the top spots I have seen maybe 3 only one on a trail that was at Cheyanne Mt Co.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I've seen a couple kit bikes and two 250w ebikes around town and on bike paths in the past year. None on the trails. The local bike shops are pushing Levos hard even though there are little to no places you can ride them legally, even the bike paths are off limits at this point. The bike shops could really care less, they tell the customers to look it up themselves as to where it is legal. 

Bike paths will become legal this year AFAIK and "no ebike" signs will go up everywhere else, which should help clarify things.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

FL has a whole lot of paved bike paths lots of retired ppl who ride bikes so e bikes have become popular there and Fl changed the law to allow e bikes on bike paths , so does this mean e bikes are allowed to ride Santos? or any of the many trails . So you can understand the confusion


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Thanks Harry & 95. As stated, not trying to explore legality or incite poaching, just wondering if anyone has seen any. In socal, there is very little to no policing so they could conceivably be used, but nobody is doing it. Wondered what's up in other areas. Seems like they're not getting traction anywhere.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Just a few up here in NE Mass. Not allowed for the most part on multi use trails with the exception of 2 or 3 areas in the eastern 1/2 of MA. Think the peer pressure about poaching does the job. I know one local bike store pulled all the e mt bikes off the floor and returned them. E commuters, still there and seems a good fit for them.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

< - - On my local trails in North San Diego County I have only seen 2 eBikes ever, both were being ridden by people in my group, one guy from OC who was visiting and had a pedelec, and one a friend who is more into electronic toys than riding who added a motor to an old Kona Stinky. 

If other users are riding them out there, I am not seeing them.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

See a fair amount of them in the county parks here in Orange County.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

mtnbikej said:


> See a fair amount of them in the county parks here in Orange County.


And they bother you how??? just asking or do they bother you at all?


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

rider95 said:


> And they bother you how??? just asking or do they bother you at all?


Does is bother you when someone posts a simple answer to a simple question??? Just asking if that bothers you or if something else is going on?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

fos'l said:


> Thanks Harry & 95. As stated, not trying to explore legality or incite poaching, just wondering if anyone has seen any. In socal, there is very little to no policing so they could conceivably be used, but nobody is doing it. Wondered what's up in other areas. Seems like they're not getting traction anywhere.


 Seems CA is the test case, that with the legislative laws and such. New tech, some areas don't have specific laws as it relates to e bikes. Time will tell.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

JACKL said:


> Does is bother you when someone posts a simple answer to a simple question??? Just asking if that bothers you or if something else is going on?


Just asking if a e bike riding on the same trail as you bothers you that's all and if it does how?? I mean nothing disrespectful but you felt the need to jump on me for asking someone so you must have a reason ? don't be mad bro


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## Ltdan12a (Jun 15, 2012)

JACKL said:


> Does is bother you when someone posts a simple answer to a simple question??? Just asking if that bothers you or if something else is going on?


He owns an e-bike, so.... yeah...


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Thanks mtbj; I haven't seem more than a couple, but probably you ride more populated park areas than I do.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I haven't seen more than two together one being mine I was just invited to attend my local mt bike club monthly meeting by the president of the club. He assured me I can ride any of our trails and in fact encouraged me to do so, I expressed a interest in getting involved in trail maintenance but I wasn't sure if I would be welcomed with my e bike . So even though I ride a e bike should I attend the meeting??? The president of the club wants me to come am I being setup for a ambush ? lol


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rider95 said:


> mtnbikej said:
> 
> 
> > See a fair amount of them in the county parks here in Orange County.
> ...


Please correct me if I am wrong, but why are you assuming they are bothering him? Nothing about his simple reply to the OP's question was argumentative or insinuating it was bothering him.

I have noticed time after time that you like to argue with other on this site when you have no basis to do so. Please do not try and derail this thread from it's original intentions.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Oh please I even said I didn't mean anything by it your getting your panties in a bunch over nothing , relaxe I sure hope I don't run in to your kind at our local MT bike club meeting .


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Ltdan12a said:


> He owns an e-bike, so.... yeah...


Actually I don't.....I ride a SS everywhere....


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## Ltdan12a (Jun 15, 2012)

mtnbikej said:


> Actually I don't.....I ride a SS everywhere....


Not you- Rider95... lol


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## eBikesmith (Jan 31, 2017)

Out in the San Francisco bay area you definitely see ebikes a lot more often now. In SF itself, on the roads, its a single digit percentage overall, but it's also constantly growing, and will probably be in the double digits soon. I mean, we have Citi bikes that are all electric assist, and there are hundreds of them. Out in the east bay, by Oakland/Berkeley area, there is also a visibly growing amount of ebikes. Again, on the road, I might even want to say it sometimes feels that the percentage of ebikes is in the double digits. Even in the mountains, you might see an eMTB here and there, but very very slim chance. Berkeley specifically is super bike friendly, and ebikes are the cool new eco trend. Even in the suburbs of the East Bay, I remember when I was literally the only one, even before the Levo, and people would stop me to ask about my ebike. Matter of fact, to this day, every time I go to run some errands, people stop to talk to me about ebikes, and their faces light up so often with excitement and want to know more. When I'm biking with the OG's out in Marin County, and Contra Costa County, they too say they're starting to see more eMTB's specifically on the trails. All those guys call me a cheater, but still find them pretty nifty lol.

Yeah, the way California structured the laws for eBikes has been really smart, and everybody is very supportive. From the street, to the bike lanes, to the bike paths, to public transportation like buses and BART (light rail), to the mountains, its definitely growing. Literally every other time I get on BART people ask me if my bike is electric, and try to find out how they can get in on it.

I have a level 3 bike, and when I'm riding through downtown using the throttle only, it makes me smile when people are like, 'D**MN! Cool bike!'(Which interestingly enough happens quite often).


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Other than me and my friends riding our EMTBs, we've seen a few more guys riding Turbo Levos and a couple of Haibikes in Marin and Santa Cruz.

That number should grow specially with the new models coming from EU, entering the US market.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I walk or ride the trails in the Santa Monica mountains on the Valley side everyday and while I used to see an ebike (other than my own) about once a month or so, now it's about once a week. All of them are multi-thousand dollar OEM Boschbikes, I'm the only one with a Luna Cycle conversion kit. I see more ebikes than pbikes on Ventura Blvd these days, but that's only about one or two a week.

I just saw a couple of electric razor type skateboards this weekend rolling along the sidewalk.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

mtnbikej said:


> See a fair amount of them in the county parks here in Orange County.


My apologies mtnbikeJ I came across a little rude that was not my intent and a little off subj sorry


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Ltdan12a said:


> Not you- Rider95... lol


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

rider95 said:


> mtnbikej said:
> 
> 
> > See a fair amount of them in the county parks here in Orange County.
> ...


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

rider95 said:


> Just asking if a e bike riding on the same trail as you bothers you that's all and if it does how?? I mean nothing disrespectful but you felt the need to jump on me for asking someone so you must have a reason ? don't be mad bro


Actually I was just asking a question. But your response to it emphasized the exact point I was trying to make. Thank you.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

At Henry W Coe SP (largest state park in NorCal @ 87,000 acres) e-bikes make up close to 50% of 2-wheeled vehicles. This is partially because the Specialized HQ is right down the street and they use the park like their private prototyping facility. Spesh has taken full advantage of the DPR being behind the curve on implementing e-bike policies. For now it's a gray area; rangers tend to be OK with Class 1 but not with Class 2.

But we do see many non-company riders albeit the Levos still being far and away the most common model encountered. Not too many complaints from other users; all coming from up-hill e-bike use. Quiet and fast; the closing (or overtaking) speed is discomforting to other park users and the e-bike community hasn't done anything to address this.

I'm using (with permission as an uniformed volunteer) an non-AB-1096-legal "e-moto" (about 2 KW) as a tool hauler/trailer tug and I find it interesting that I'm a close 3rd in Strava on a popular climb segment. This suggests that there are other "cheaters" out there or that some e-bikers are incredibly strong.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Just saw yesterday a new bike shop opened on the paved bike path its all E bikes only sell rent service wow you can now rent a top line e bike to ride the bike path , for the Midwest this is progress !.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Moe Ped said:


> At Henry W Coe SP (largest state park in NorCal @ 87,000 acres) e-bikes make up close to 50% of 2-wheeled vehicles. This is partially because the Specialized HQ is right down the street and they use the park like their private prototyping facility. Spesh has taken full advantage of the DPR being behind the curve on implementing e-bike policies. For now it's a gray area; rangers tend to be OK with Class 1 but not with Class 2.
> 
> But we do see many non-company riders albeit the Levos still being far and away the most common model encountered. Not too many complaints from other users; all coming from up-hill e-bike use. Quiet and fast; the closing (or overtaking) speed is discomforting to other park users and the e-bike community hasn't done anything to address this.
> 
> I'm using (with permission as an uniformed volunteer)* an non-AB-1096-legal "e-moto" (about 2 KW) *as a tool hauler/trailer tug and I find it interesting that I'm a close 3rd in Strava on a popular climb segment. This suggests that there are other "cheaters" out there or that some e-bikers are incredibly strong.


AB-1096 says that local jursidictions have the ability to set their own laws and override that Bill.

Down here in Orange County, the OCParks have decided that eBikes are motorized vehicles and are not allowing them. However, that hasn't stopped anyone yet. In fact, saw the ranger inform 2 riders that they were not allowed in the park, then 4 days later they were back in the same park riding them. From what they said, the shop that sold them the Ebikes....they told them nothing about not being able to ride them in certain areas.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

mtnbikej said:


> AB-1096 says that local jursidictions have the ability to set their own laws and override that Bill.
> 
> Down here in Orange County, the OCParks have decided that eBikes are motorized vehicles and are not allowing them. However, that hasn't stopped anyone yet. In fact, saw the ranger inform 2 riders that they were not allowed in the park, then 4 days later they were back in the same park riding them. From what they said, the shop that sold them the Ebikes....they told them nothing about not being able to ride them in certain areas.


As far as Calif. State Parks go, they will probably leave it up to the local district superintendent to make the call on banning e-bikes per AB-1096. Sacramento seems evenly split on the matter; DPR law enforcement seems thumbs-down on e-bikes and the DPR trail dept. seems thumbs-up. I've communicated with both. DPR public information told me to expect the e-bike policy to take a couple of years to be devised/implemented.

It'll be funny (after a million folks buy e-bikes in Calif.) that DPR comes out with a blanket ban. Could happen.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I called up the president of our local MT bike club the club builds and maintains our trails and turned my self in I confessed that I ride my e bike on his trails, he said that the trails do not belong to the club but are public trails . He said yes he has heard of me and my e bike using the trails thinks its great his exact words to me was keep riding them ride and enjoy I expressed a interest in helping with trail work dates he encouraged me to come to the monthly meetings with my E bike lol well mabey I said but left him all my contact info so if you get complaints about a e bike its me !!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Moe Ped said:


> At Henry W Coe SP (largest state park in NorCal @ 87,000 acres) e-bikes make up close to 50% of 2-wheeled vehicles. This is partially because the Specialized HQ is right down the street and they use the park like their private prototyping facility. Spesh has taken full advantage of the DPR being behind the curve on implementing e-bike policies. For now it's a gray area; rangers tend to be OK with Class 1 but not with Class 2.


How did you come to the 50% number? Was a poll of some sort done?

When you say the rangers are not OK with Class 2, what do you mean? Are they issuing citations? Confiscating bikes?


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> How did you come to the 50% number? Was a poll of some sort done?
> 
> When you say the rangers are not OK with Class 2, what do you mean? Are they issuing citations? Confiscating bikes?


50% is my personal guesstimate; I'm out in Coe at least a couple times a week working on the trails and every other bike is an e-bike. There is a bias in that I'm usually in the park on weekdays; weekends could be a different blend. There's not yet a big enough sampling of e-bikers using Strava (legitimately via e-bike rides) but the one segment I can parse out is 14 e-bikers vs. 59 regular bikers for the same time period. (Some of the 59 are likely e-cheaters)

From what the rangers have told us is that a Class 2 e-biker would be asked to leave. (a handicapped rider would get an OK) Most of the rangers at Coe don't even know what Class 2 means but if you're moving uphill without pedaling you're busted.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> < - - On my local trails in North San Diego County I have only seen 2 eBikes ever, both were being ridden by people in my group, one guy from OC who was visiting and had a pedelec, and one a friend who is more into electronic toys than riding who added a motor to an old Kona Stinky.
> 
> If other users are riding them out there, I am not seeing them.


I wanted to update this. I saw one on Tuesday. I must say I was pretty shocked by how fast that guy was climbing. Here is my best on this segment:








As you can see my average pace was 5.7mph with a 10mph max (near the top when it levels out) The guy on the eBike was going at least twice as fast as me.

Was this a problem? I don't think so, the trail here is very wide, about double track wide and at the time he was climbing there was no one coming down the trail either on foot or on bike.

But I just wanted to say that now I have see 3 eBikes ever on my local trail I ride each week.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Was riding a cyclocross bike with my wife on her MTB in Dana Point yesterday and saw quite a few e-bikes on the paths. Seemed like 50% of the bikes were of the "e" variety. All legal though AFAIK since we were on concrete or dirt paths.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Here in WNC , Pisgah forest and DuPont they are everywhere! I'm talking my hairs were straight up from all the current! JK, they aren't welcome there yet. Just thought I'd give y'all a rouse!


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

I've never seen an e-mtb on any of my rides in MA, NH and VT, in the parking lot or on the trail. I ride 2-3 times a week and have seen plenty of MTBers out, just never with e-assist (that I could tell, anyway). It's possible I suppose that I've seen them and not known that it was an e-mtb, but I doubt it.


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## JRT_in_WMass (Jul 22, 2013)

It is still early days on this subject. Give it a few years.

If enough people with $$$ignificant political influence buy e-MTBs, and then find too many trails closed to them, they may use some of their influence, and then MTB trails on public land will be opened for wider use to include e-MTB. 

I think it really is as simple as that.

I suspect that the politicians considering the issue might calculate that conventional MTB fanatics don't vote in large numbers, and are also not likely to be big sources of support in their campaigns, financial and otherwise.

And the subject matter is not a significant political issue that will gain wider audience with controversy and political backlash, so a politician can move either way on that issue without fear of significant negative feedback at the ballot box.

I would suspect that there are some few exceptions, 'few' being the key word in that.


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## hobbit (Apr 23, 2007)

Usually see at least one other ebike when out on mine and maybe 3 or 4 at weekends. But that's at trail centres in the UK.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

China accused of flooding Europe with cheap e-bikes

While I imagine these are mostly not off road ebikes, don't underestimate the willingness of kids and yahoos to run them on trails.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I think numbers are increasing but they're still relatively uncommon. There are a lot of fire roads and forest roads, and other minimum maintenance venues but they don't really go anywhere. Biking trails here are labeled non-motorized, but that's been interpreted to mean snowmobiles, quads, and dirt bikes. e-bikes are specifically allowed on our local track and it appears that their numbers are increasing. We have 28 miles of really nice singletrack, IMBA Silver Ride Center, and are currently executing a plan to expand it to 70+ miles based on $4.1 million in grants. As the trail system expands and public awareness grows, I suspect we'll see a corresponding increase in e-MTBs.

The area bike dealers are promoting them with increasing energy, bringing them occasionally out to the main parking lot and offering rides. The local Yamaha dealer is gearing up too. Overall, it's generating an increasing amount of interest.


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

I've honestly not seen one yet, which surprises me a little because they are explicitly allows on our single track and I know a couple of the more popular LBS stock them (Trek and Specialized). I've seen a couple on pavement over the past year or so but that's it.

I do live in a pretty flat area, so there may be less incentive to pay for the motor. Even with my mediocre riding abilities I get by just fine with a single speed.

*EDIT*: I misread our state park regulations, while e-bikes are defined as bicycles you need written permission to use an e-bike on the state park trails in Delaware. The pertinent section is further down in the thread.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> Biking trails here are labeled non-motorized, but that's been interpreted to mean snowmobiles, quads, and dirt bikes. e-bikes are specifically allowed on our local track and it appears that their numbers are increasing. We have 28 miles of really nice singletrack, IMBA Silver Ride Center, and are currently executing a plan to expand it to 70+ miles based on $4.1 million in grants. As the trail system expands and public awareness grows, I suspect we'll see a corresponding increase in e-MTBs.
> 
> The area bike dealers are promoting them with increasing energy, bringing them occasionally out to the main parking lot and offering rides. The local Yamaha dealer is gearing up too. Overall, it's generating an increasing amount of interest.


Where do you live? Do you have some links to local land management websites that show that definition of non-motorized you are stating?



formula4speed said:


> they are explicitly allows on our single track


Where do you live? Do you have some links to local land management websites that statement?

This right here is one of the big problems in this section, a user comes on and claims they are allowed "where they live" but refuse to back that up. I would like to see more users posting links to land management agencies that have specifically allowed eBikes on Multi-Use trails.

Where there is no posted rules and laws to back it up, it is just talk.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> Where there is no posted rules and laws to back it up, it is just talk.


And yet when folks who might know a little something about laws and rules post up and discuss laws and rules, it's dismissed as heresy..... lol.

It's an internet forum... It's all just talk. All of it.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

AGarcia said:


> And yet when folks who might know a little something about laws and rules post up and discuss laws and rules, it's dismissed as heresy..... lol.
> 
> It's an internet forum... It's all just talk. All of it.


Mister Garcia, don't, just don't. No one appreciates your taking something black and white and creating a grey area where one does not exist. Until you actually take the BLM to court and get some sort of ruling, things like this are very clear and not up to subjective debate about legal access.

https://www.blm.gov/policy/ib-2015-060



> An electronic bicycle, also known as an e-bike, is a bicycle with an integrated electric motor. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) classifies e-bikes as motorized vehicles


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

have not seen any on the dirt trails here in Central Ohio. In fact, I have seen none at all. I do tend to ride in non-peak hours though...like really early Sunday morning, or late Sunday evening. Have seen some of the cruiser types on the multi-use trails and the streets...

I also have not really seen or heard what our local (COMBO) thinks about it. Our trails are rocky and rooty enough that I could not see the motor lasting very long though. Lotsa bouncing around here


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> Where do you live? Do you have some links to local land management websites that show that definition of non-motorized you are stating?
> 
> Where do you live? Do you have some links to local land management websites that statement?
> 
> ...


Sorry about that, I'm specifically referring to Delaware State Parks, the majority of trails I ride are state park land, there are some in County land and I'm not sure how it applies to that.

"Bicycle" shall include that certain class of vehicles which are exclusively human-powered by means of foot pedals, which the driver normally rides astride, which have not in excess of 3 wheels and which may be commonly known as unicycles, bicycles and tricycles. The term "bicycle" also includes a 2- or 3-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 horsepower), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 miles per hour. (21 Del.C. §101(4))."

Taken from the regulations governing state parks here:
9201 Regulations Governing State Parks

I recall them originally borrowing language from our DOT, but then later updated to specifically mention e-bikes, so I believe they are intentionally allowed. Again, I've never seen one on the trails, so it may be a moot point.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> Mister Garcia, don't, just don't. No one appreciates your taking something black and white and creating a grey area where one does not exist. Until you actually take the BLM to court and get some sort of ruling, things like this are very clear and not up to subjective debate about legal access.
> 
> https://www.blm.gov/policy/ib-2015-060


On the contrary, they're quite the subject for debate. You stating that things are "black and white" does not make them so. You may not like what I have to say, because it doesn't fit your world view. But that does not make it wrong or offensive in general.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

formula4speed said:


> Sorry about that, I'm specifically referring to Delaware State Parks, the majority of trails I ride are state park land, there are some in County land and I'm not sure how it applies to that.
> 
> "Bicycle" shall include that certain class of vehicles which are exclusively human-powered by means of foot pedals, which the driver normally rides astride, which have not in excess of 3 wheels and which may be commonly known as unicycles, bicycles and tricycles. The term "bicycle" also includes a 2- or 3-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 horsepower), whose maximum speed on a *paved level surface*, when powered solely by such motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 miles per hour. (21 Del.C. §101(4))."
> 
> ...


Thank you, that makes a big difference. However I noticed it was specifically calling out Paved level surfaces, so does that mean it does not apply to Dirt Multi-use Trails? I do not have the time to read that entire page to see, but I am curious to know if that definition only applies to paved paths and roads in state parks vs other trails that are dirt.



AGarcia said:


> On the contrary, they're quite the subject for debate. *You stating that things are "black and white" does not make them so.* You may not like what I have to say, because it doesn't fit your world view. But that does not make it wrong or offensive in general.


Just because you state things are grey does not make it so either.

The BLM definition is not Grey, it is Black and White and Very Clear the eBikes are defined as Motorized vehicles. I am not sure how you can argue that the BLM website Page Linked is NOT defining eBikes in that fashion.

Garcia, see the post above, where eBikes are expressly permitted and defined to be permitted, on paved level surfaces. Will you also argue that is a grey area and is up for debate? Will you play devils advocate and make some sort of case as to why a 2 or 2 wheel vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts is NOT a bicycle by their definition posted on the Delaware state parks website?


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

If I'm reading it correctly, I think the paved level surface is referring to how they measure maximum speed, as opposed to being able to reach that speed on an incline. So I believe they are still allowed on the singletrack (ours is often intermixed, with singletrack, gravel and small paved sections linked together)

That being said I've never asked a ranger, I just remember reading that, I don't own or intend to buy an e-bike so that's as far as I've looked into it.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

formula4speed said:


> If I'm reading it correctly, I think the paved level surface is referring to how they measure maximum speed, as opposed to being able to reach that speed on an incline. So I believe they are still allowed on the singletrack (ours is often intermixed, with singletrack, gravel and small paved sections linked together)
> 
> That being said I've never asked a ranger, I just remember reading that, I don't own or intend to buy an e-bike so that's as far as I've looked into it.


I can see what you are saying. Would be interesting to get some clarification from a Ranger. Do you run into Rangers much on your rides out there?


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> The BLM definition is not Grey, it is Black and White and Very Clear the eBikes are defined as Motorized vehicles. I am not sure how you can argue that the BLM website Page Linked is NOT defining eBikes in that fashion.


I understand that you are not sure how I can argue a point. Suffice it to say that I can't expect everyone to understand or to be sure. That's why I get paid the big bucks --- or so my clients tell me.



Klurejr said:


> Garcia, see the post above, where eBikes are expressly permitted and defined to be permitted, on paved level surfaces. Will you also argue that is a grey area and is up for debate? Will you play devils advocate and make some sort of case as to why a 2 or 2 wheel vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts is NOT a bicycle by their definition posted on the Delaware state parks website?


The quoted language does not tell you where ebikes are "expressly permitted and defined to be permitted." Instead, it's merely defining what a "bicycle" is.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Klurejr;13370977
Where do you live? Do you have some links to local land management websites that statement?[/quote said:


> This right here is one of the big problems in this section, a user comes on and claims they are allowed "where they live" but refuse to back that up. I would like to see more users posting links to land management agencies that have specifically allowed eBikes on Multi-Use trails.


 I never refused to provide "proof". I didn't know it was necessary. But here ya go, bud...

Other uses on state trails: Minnesota DNR


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> I never refused to provide "proof". I didn't know it was necessary. But here ya go, bud...
> 
> Other uses on state trails: Minnesota DNR


Geez, why can't these people write something that doesn't contradict itself?

_Electric-assist or pedal-assist bicycles are allowed on state trails, or wherever normal bicycles are allowed, if they meet the following definition in Minnesota Statutes 169.011, Subdivision 27. external link
2 or 3 wheels
A saddle and fully operable pedals for human propulsion
An electric motor that is:
1,000 watts or less,
incapable of propelling faster than 20 miles per hour,
incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power alone is used to propel the vehicle at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour, and 
disengages or ceases to function when the vehicles brakes are applied.
A motorized bicycle that does not meet the definition of an electric-assist bicycle is not allowed on state trails where motorized vehicles are prohibited._

So they are saying motorized bicycles are allowed if they meet the criteria outlined. And then they say:

_Vehicles and Uses that are not allowed on state trails

Golf carts
Motorized bicycles_

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying that once again, these people can't write a clear document. They need to add "with the exception of Electric-assist or pedal-assist bicycles as defined above" or something similar.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

AGarcia said:


> The quoted language does not tell you where ebikes are "expressly permitted and defined to be permitted." Instead, it's merely defining what a "bicycle" is.


Exactly, and the BLM defines any Bicycle with a motor in it as a Motorized Vehicle.
*"An electronic bicycle, also known as an e-bike, is a bicycle with an integrated electric motor. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) classifies e-bikes as motorized vehicles"*

I am not saying one is right and one is wrong, Just noting that one Government Agency is defining them one way, and another agency is defining them the opposite way.

They are both giving black and white definitions, neither are grey area. That is my point.



Cuyuna said:


> I never refused to provide "proof". I didn't know it was necessary. But here ya go, bud...
> 
> Other uses on state trails: Minnesota DNR


I was not pointing at you directly, there is a common trend in this sub-forum for new users to join MTBR and come in here and post about a trail they rode their eBike on, and when the users find out what trail it is, and it happens to be one that is not legal for eBikes they bring up the point that the user is poaching. It generally goes downhill from there.

By posting your local regulations to back up legal eBike access, you are totally avoiding that sort of confrontation.

Much of this is covered in the Section Rules Post that is stickied at the top of the eBike Sub-Forum, but I doubt many users read that before they post in this section.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

chazpat said:


> Geez, why can't these people write something that doesn't contradict itself?
> 
> _Electric-assist or pedal-assist bicycles are allowed on state trails, or wherever normal bicycles are allowed, if they meet the following definition in Minnesota Statutes 169.011, Subdivision 27. external link
> 2 or 3 wheels
> ...


Seems clear to me. They make a distinction between a motorized bicycle and a pedal-assisted or electrical-assisted bicycle. The State of Minnesota doesn't consider e-MTB's to be a motorized vehicle.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> The State of Minnesota doesn't consider e-MTB's to be a motorized vehicle.


I didn't see anywhere that that is stated, just that a motorized bike that meets the criteria they outlined is allowed and if it doesn't meet that criteria, it isn't. But then they say motorized bicycles are not allowed.

Again, I think you are right, they are allowed but they wrote it poorly, it would have been clearer if they had said e-MTBs are not considered motorized vehicles but they didn't.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

chazpat said:


> I didn't see anywhere that that is stated, just that a motorized bike that meets the criteria they outlined is allowed and if it doesn't meet that criteria, it isn't. But then they say motorized bicycles are not allowed.
> 
> Again, I think you are right, they are allowed but they wrote it poorly, it would have been clearer if they had said e-MTBs are not considered motorized vehicles but they didn't.


I know for a fact that they are allowed, here, and on any state trail where bicycles are allowed.

I guess we all see it differently, but their definition seems perfectly clear to me. Not a motorized vehicle if it meets the criteria they state.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> "bicycle" is.
> Exactly, and the BLM defines any Bicycle with a motor in it as a Motorized Vehicle.
> "An electronic bicycle, also known as an e-bike, is a bicycle with an integrated electric motor. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) classifies e-bikes as motorized vehicles"
> 
> ...


 As I have stated several times before, the BLMs guidance and statements indicate how they interpret regulations and may also indicate how they intend to regulate, but the statements, guidance and rules themselves *do not have the force of law or regulations*. Indeed, their statements can be quite grey when not supported by the underlying law. That is my point.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> I know for a fact that they are allowed, here, and on any state trail where bicycles are allowed.
> 
> I guess we all see it differently, but their definition seems perfectly clear to me. Not a motorized vehicle if it meets the criteria they state.


Good grief, nowhere do they state that an ebike is not a motorized vehicle. They define it as having a motor over and over:

_Electric-assist or pedal-assist bicycles are allowed on state trails, or wherever normal bicycles are allowed, if they meet the following definition in Minnesota Statutes 169.011, Subdivision 27. external link
2 or 3 wheels
A saddle and fully operable pedals for human propulsion
An electric motor that is:_

_A motorized bicycle that does not meet the definition of an electric-assist bicycle is not allowed on state trails where motorized vehicles are prohibited.

Electric-assist or pedal-assist bicycles are allowed on state trails, or wherever normal bicycles are allowed, if they meet the following definition in Minnesota Statutes 169.011, Subdivision 27_

From Minnesota Statutes 169.011, Subdivision 27:

_Subd. 27.Electric-assisted bicycle. "Electric-assisted bicycle" means a bicycle with two or three wheels that:
(1) has a saddle and fully operable pedals for human propulsion;
(2) meets the requirements:
(i) of federal motor vehicle safety standards for a motor-driven cycle in Code of Federal Regulations, title 49, sections 571.1 et seq.; or
(ii) for bicycles under Code of Federal Regulations, title 16, part 1512, or successor requirements; and
(3) has an electric motor that (i) has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts, (ii) is incapable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour, (iii) is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power alone is used to propel the vehicle at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour, and (iv) disengages or ceases to function when the vehicle's brakes are applied._

They say motor over and over and over. They never say it is considered to be "not a motorized vehicle", they just say that they "are allowed on state trails, or wherever normal bicycles are allowed".


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Electric-assist or pedal-assist bicycles are allowed on state trails, or wherever normal bicycles are allowed, if they meet the following definition in Minnesota Statutes 169.011, Subdivision 27.

A motorized bicycle that does not meet the definition of an electric-assist bicycle is not allowed on state trails where motorized vehicles are prohibited.

Seems clearer than most.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

AGarcia said:


> As I have stated several times before, the BLMs guidance and statements indicate how they interpret regulations and may also indicate how they intend to regulate, but the statements, guidance and rules themselves *do not have the force of law or regulations*. Indeed, their statements can be quite grey when not supported by the underlying law. That is my point.


What you just said makes no sense to the non-lawyers who will be reading the only BLM webpage that has information about eBikes and access.

A non-lawyer will read it and understand that is means what it says.

As I mentioned, until you or someone else actually challenges it in court and gets it overturned, that is the only written information regarding how the BLM defines eBikes. I get what you are saying about how it might not be law due to some loophole, but that is not how Joe Public is going to read that Official Government Webpage with definitions. If the BLM did not intend for eBikes to be classified and treated like other Motorized Vehicles, then it would not publish such a document.

If the Tables were turned and that website stated the opposite and had a sentence that said:



> An electronic bicycle, also known as an e-bike, is a bicycle with an integrated electric motor. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) Does not classifie e-bikes as motorized vehicles


And then someone was given a ticket for motorized vehicle access, are you saying the ticket would stand up in court since what is published on the BLM page is not law?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Not to argue, add fuel to the flame (enough fires in OC right now) or split hairs, but there are a couple of concrete bike paths in Irvine, CA with signs that state "no electric bicycles", therefore self-explanatory. One path in Orange, CA states "no motorized bicycles" which could have been more specific.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

formula4speed said:


> *** they are explicitly allows on our single track ***





formula4speed said:


> Sorry about that, I'm specifically referring to Delaware State Parks, the majority of trails I ride are state park land, there are some in County land and I'm not sure how it applies to that.
> 
> "Bicycle" shall include that certain class of vehicles which are exclusively human-powered by means of foot pedals, which the driver normally rides astride, which have not in excess of 3 wheels and which may be commonly known as unicycles, bicycles and tricycles. The term "bicycle" also includes a 2- or 3-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 horsepower), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 miles per hour. (21 Del.C. §101(4))."
> 
> ...


Wrong.



AGarcia said:


> The quoted language does not tell you where ebikes are "expressly permitted and defined to be permitted." Instead, it's merely defining what a "bicycle" is.


Right.

What the reg actually says about ebike use in state parks:

"Bicycles with electric motors are prohibited on all trails except with written permission from the Director." Sec. 12.1.1



formula4speed said:


> That being said I've never asked a ranger, I just remember reading that, I don't own or intend to buy an e-bike so that's as far as I've looked into it.


You don't say.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> What you just said makes no sense to the non-lawyers who will be reading the only BLM webpage that has information about eBikes and access.


I understand it may not make much sense to you or other non-lawyers. Most folks didn't go to law school, nor is their job focused on interpreting federal, state and local law (including BLM and USFS regulations and guidance), like mine is.

Likewise, I'm sure I'd have a hard time designing buildings or airplanes because I'm not an architect or an engineer.

And it's not that the BLM's intentions are unclear -- or at least the intentions of the author who is a BLM employee. I simply point out that the statements and intentions are not supported by law, nor do they have the force of law.

Nonetheless, you are right in the sense until someone challenges BLM or laws/regulations are developed which contravene the guidance you cite, BLM will regulate how they see fit, and it will be in accordance with the the guidance you cite. And their guidance is ordinarily given a significant amount of weight by judges. Consequently, it would be foolish for any individual joe public member to disregard the BLM's guidance.

And it's not an issue of loopholes. It's pretty straightforward for lawyers who regularly practice in the area of administrative law.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

chazpat said:


> Good grief, nowhere do they state that an ebike is not a motorized vehicle. They define it as having a motor over and over:
> 
> _Electric-assist or pedal-assist bicycles are allowed on state trails, or wherever normal bicycles are allowed, if they meet the following definition in Minnesota Statutes 169.011, Subdivision 27. external link
> 2 or 3 wheels
> ...


You can rail against the verbiage and try to parse the State of Minnesota's definitions all you want. Here's the bottom line....I could head over to the Trek dealer tomorrow, pick up a Powerfly whatever and spend the rest of the afternoon riding 28 miles of singletrack and/or 30 miles of paved trail. _You_ may find the language obscure, but the DNR and Park Rangers are pretty clear on it and that's all that would matter to me if I owned an e-MTB.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

chazpat said:


> *I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying that once again, these people can't write a clear document. *They need to add "with the exception of Electric-assist or pedal-assist bicycles as defined above" or something similar.





chazpat said:


> *Again, I think you are right, they are allowed but they wrote it poorly*, it would have been clearer if they had said e-MTBs are not considered motorized vehicles but they didn't.





Cuyuna said:


> You can rail against the verbiage and try to parse the State of Minnesota's definitions all you want. Here's the bottom line....I could head over to the Trek dealer tomorrow, pick up a Powerfly whatever and spend the rest of the afternoon riding 28 miles of singletrack and/or 30 miles of paved trail. _You_ may find the language obscure, but the DNR and Park Rangers are pretty clear on it and that's all that would matter to me if I owned an e-MTB.


You need to work on your reading comprehension.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

LOL...negative rep..that'll teach me...


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

Wow, didn't mean to kick a hornets nest.

It would appear I misread the regulations, thanks for pointing that out OldManBike. I haven't asked a ranger because I don't have an e-bike, and equally important, I don't think I've seen a ranger in 2+ years. I believe they are mostly at trail heads with parking lots, but I ride in so I don't generally run into them.

Anyway, edited my original post but the non-proliferation part still stands. I just don't see e-bikes around here.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Have yet to see one on the trails. Local shop had one, sold it, isn't planning on getting any more. All New England states consider them motorized vehicles as far as trail access goes (to the best of my knowledge) and restrict them from non-motorized trails.

Where Can Electric Mountain Bikes Be Ridden in New England | NEMBA


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Here in the OC area of SoCal, I usually see 1 or 2 on most weekend rides where I'm riding (Santiago Oaks, the Luge or Aliso Woods) over the course of time I'm there (about 2 hours).


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Both the local Specialized dealer and Trek dealer stock these things. I know they've both sold several. Specialized seems to be focusing on older folks putt-putting along the 120-mile paved trail, and the Trek dealer periodically brings them out to the main parking area at the head of the local mountain bike trail system, offering demo rides. Seems to be a pretty well-received endeavor and one that they're doing more frequently. I was chatting with him the other evening and have been trying to connect with a trip around one of the trails. I've never ridden one on actual technical single track but I'm intrigued.


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## DL723 (Sep 25, 2017)

I've been going to different bike shops around the area the last few weekends for various reasons. To be honest, the cruising crowd is probably growing much faster than the pure mtb crowd. One of the stores I saw a couple, in their 50's, purchase two full suspension ebikes. So we're talking probably at least $6000-7000 in bikes. I asked if they were planning on hitting the trails...the wife's answer: "I hope not". Haha turns out they lived near where I lived and were just planning on cruising around the city bike paths. Maybe the husband had bigger plans but that seemed consistent with my interaction with other people buying in other shops. So far, I've only heard of one store worker saying her dad got a full suspension ebike so they can go out together. But he leaves it on the lowest setting.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

We have specific "ebike" stores here. Plus, rentals are everywhere, predominantly bike paths.


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