# Which one is more fun for a still-beginner? 29er vs. 27.5+.



## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

I currently ride a Raleigh Tekoa 29er and am wanting to change it up to something with a drivetrain (currently 3x8) that will be a bit easier on the trail and with a slightly better fork (currently coil 100mm) to handle some of the really rough spots. The trails I ride can be quite difficult and I haven't been able to get up all of the climbs yet. I don't plan on upgrading because I think I can get a new bike for roughly the same cost.

So, I am debating between sticking with the 29er (Salsa Timberjack Nx1 29er) or switching it up to a 27.5+ (Cannondale Cujo 2). Since I don't think I'll be able to demo either of them I'd love to hear some opinions on which would be more fun. My idea of fun being not crashing, changing flats, or walking up climbs. I'm 40, 163 lbs and 5'9". 

Apologies if this has been covered or isn't appropriate for the forum. Thanks.


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

I have not ridden the Cujo 2 HT, but I did ride the Bad Habit, Cannondale FS (same fork, same tires, and similar head angle and geometry). It was a blast to ride.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

Thanks for the response. Love the Bad Habit, but out of my price range. Confining to HTs for now.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

I have a 2017 Timberjack NX 29er and have a great time riding it. I upgraded the wheels and tires. At over 200lbs I'm a little hard on bearings. i'm working on skills to help that.

I ride for fitness and fun so I like a brisk pace but not racing nor recreation but in between. 

Mostly forest trails with lots of tight turns and roots. I travel to other trails with rocks and sand.

If you want 3" tires then a 27.5 may be a better choice. The Timberjack is rated at 2.5 for the 29er but others put 3" on it. If the wheels were upgraded to 30-35 internal then 2.6" or higher would be a possible option on the NX. If you work the numbers its not so ridiculous about $1800 with the new wheels and tires. Look at the other builds too.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

Thanks for the response. To be clear are you on the Timberjack 29er or 27.5+? 
My pace is slow and likely to stay that way for a while and that's ok with me. I am still learning basics. I sometimes get off the trail just to look at the lake. But I like jumping =). 

The terrain is terribly rough but with a few notable exceptions the vast majority isn't what an experienced rider would call "technical". It's just really, really bumpy with rocks and roots. I'm hoping the fork upgrade will make it a bit more comfortable.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Check out the edits.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

I would definitely go for a B+ if going for a HT, no question about it, so maybe look at the Salsa Timberjack 27+ instead.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

LyNx said:


> I would definitely go for a B+ if going for a HT, no question about it, so maybe look at the Salsa Timberjack 27+ instead.


Great feedback, thank you! Only reason I would go with the Cannondale for my 27.5+ is my LBS offers lifetime support and is a Cannondale dealer, but doesn't do Salsa . If I got a 29er though I would get the Salsa because Cannondale doesn't really offer a 120mm fork/1x11 at HT at that price point.

Really appreciate the response.


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## laurenlex (Sep 13, 2006)

I would go 27+ or 29+ for a hardtail.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

laurenlex said:


> I would go 27+ or 29+ for a hardtail.


Thanks! I actually did check out the Stache but that was too much for me .


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

pesteaux said:


> Thanks for the response. Love the Bad Habit, but out of my price range. Confining to HTs for now.


That is why I compared it, I would think the Cujo would feel much like the Bad Habit.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

armii said:


> That is why I compared it, I would think the Cujo would feel much like the Bad Habit.


Oh, I get it, thanks!


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## BobbyLight350z (Feb 1, 2016)

Vitus bikes on CRC best spec for $ other than used. check pinkbike classifieds or craigslist for used.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Cannondale Trail series are competitive in price a build. The Timberjack has the 120mm travel then its Shimano vs SRAM. Take a closer look at the geo to see if there'd be a difference you'd prefer and tire clearance.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

Will do on both. I like the Trail series and will compare geo to see if anything catches my eye. I'll also spec the Vitus. Thanks both for the replies.


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## roadkill401 (Mar 14, 2017)

I took the Cujo 1 out for a spin last year and could not wait to get off it. I found it horrible. It felt like I wasn't connected to the track I was taking and any corse correction I took it felt like it was 1/2 a second before the bike responded. 

I did ride a Trail 2 after it, and it felt so much better to me. I can't say if it was more that the bike wasn't setup enough to my body/dimensions. It turned me off the 27+ wheels all together. I was looking to save a bit of coin and get a hardtail last year. I ended up concluding that for myself, I wanted a FS and had to wait for the best sales to get one.


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## stangmanrider (Oct 18, 2017)

I just purchased a Cujo 1 last October and really enjoy it. I am mainly a road biker but have really enjoyed trail riding for the past few months. Looking forward to doing alot more in the Spring when the weather breaks here in NJ. I am 175lbs - 5'11". I had my LBS fit me to this bike as they also did my road bike fitting so it was not that big of a deal or cost but did make a difference. I really enjoy the 1X11 drivetrain along with the good Shimano components. The dropper post is also really nice to have. I really like the 27.5+ tires but I just finished upgrading them to Maxxis DHF/DHRII tubeless setup in the same size. I am looking forward to testing them out real soon! Overall the Cannondale Cujo 1 is a great HT bike and seems to be a good value for the components that you get with it.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

Great feedback, thanks! 

Roadkill, the trail is a nice bike, too. I followed for a few miles on Friday night until I got dropped =). In a way I do want to lose the feel of the trail, even though I know that's not what you meant. I do worry about losing too much, though.

I like the Cujo 1 stang and may actually choose to drop the extra dough if I go that route so thanks for the review.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

27.5 plus is just a tread height shorter than the regular 29er wheel~n~tire.
My slack HT Is playful like the regular 27.5's are.
My boost spacing gave me very strong wheels.
Good wheels are everything so If you go with the 29er you will want better wheels
really soon.
My house brand stock boost wheels feel like the $1,000 upgraded American Classic
wheels I put on my Full suspension bike.
I remember my $650 29er hard tail came with really crappy wheels that I hated,,,
Just sayin..


The 27.5 plus bike I have now got me off a full squish. I like the Hard tail efficiancy
but hated the hard tail beatings.
B+ solved this Issue for me.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Osco said:


> 27.5 plus is just a tread height shorter than the regular 29er wheel~n~tire.
> My slack HT Is playful like the regular 27.5's are.
> My boost spacing gave me very strong wheels.
> Good wheels are everything so If you go with the 29er you will want better wheels
> ...


I agree, wheels and tires make a huge difference. Which leads me to the debate...Is it better to by and entry level bike and put $6-800 in a wheel and tire upgrade or buy a $2k bike? some of the other parts on the 2K bike will be better but what will make the most difference? I the right hubs are chosen the wheels can go on different bikes.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

H/T 27.5 +

That's the ticket in my case for a fun, versatile bike that handles the trails nice and leaves you feeling good enough to get out every day without ringing your bell/feeling rung.

Other than that, I'd just say that I don't equate fun to wheel size but more to the type of bike and riding or characteristics you are searching for. Reading into others comments and even the bike mags and 'experts', 29er is a tad bit about efficient rolling / momentum and roll-over but most of us have found all the efficiency and-roll over we want or need on a h/t 27.5 + . They handle and turn fast, grip with confidence, feel sporty and offer traction and ride comfort that forgives.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

Osco said:


> 27.5 plus is just a tread height shorter than the regular 29er wheel~n~tire.
> My slack HT Is playful like the regular 27.5's are.
> My boost spacing gave me very strong wheels.
> Good wheels are everything so If you go with the 29er you will want better wheels
> ...


I have never thought about that with my 29er, which I'm sure doesn't have very good wheels. I can't even imagine the difference it would make to upgrade the wheels. I will compare my current ones to the two bikes I'm looking at though and see if they are any better. Thanks!


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

bachman1961 said:


> H/T 27.5 +
> 
> That's the ticket in my case for a fun, versatile bike that handles the trails nice and leaves you feeling good enough to get out every day without ringing your bell/feeling rung.
> 
> Other than that, I'd just say that I don't equate fun to wheel size but more to the type of bike and riding or characteristics you are searching for. Reading into others comments and even the bike mags and 'experts' 29 is a tad bit about efficient rolling / momentum and roll-over but most of us have found all the efficiency and-roll over we want or need on a h/t 27.5 + . They handle and turn fast, grip with confidence, feel sporty and offer traction and ride comfort that forgives.


Thank you for the comment. Surely you're right that lots of things go into the equation, I think I'm getting a really good start here.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

roadkill401 said:


> I took the Cujo 1 out for a spin last year and could not wait to get off it. I found it horrible. It felt like I wasn't connected to the track I was taking and any corse correction I took it felt like it was 1/2 a second before the bike responded.


There's definitely an adjustment period going to plus size tires/wheels. Everything does seem to happen a little slower, and require a little more body english. I was blowing quick turns quite a bit the first few times out until I adjusted. Coming from 26" wheels, I also had to get used to the lack of 'punchiness' when it came to quick burts of acceleration in technical terrain. Everything settled out pretty well after a little while and I don't really notice it anymore. Old bike feels twitchy as hell now though!


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> There's definitely an adjustment period going to plus size tires/wheels. Everything does seem to happen a little slower, and require a little more body english. I was blowing quick turns quite a bit the first few times out until I adjusted. Coming from 26" wheels, I also had to get used to the lack of 'punchiness' when it came to quick burts of acceleration in technical terrain. Everything settled out pretty well after a little while and I don't really notice it anymore. Old bike feels twitchy as hell now though!


Yep- and also, part of that adjustment for me was the feel of the newer bikes if anyone is 'modernizing' coming to newer frames/bikes from the older geo frames. You are placed in a slightly different rider position that makes things all new again.

*pesteaux -* Just for some other insights, go over to bikepacking 101 and read of the bikes they ride and test over some big trips. Under Plus, they feature the Jamis Dragonslayer and a Marin Pine Mtn so you'll get some hints at how they handle trails and input from riders that test hundreds of bikes or more. There are a lot of bikes / bike types tested and featured there !

Plus Bikes, 29+, 27+ - BIKEPACKING.com


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

scycllerist said:


> I agree, wheels and tires make a huge difference. Which leads me to the debate...Is it better to by and entry level bike and put $6-800 in a wheel and tire upgrade or buy a $2k bike? some of the other parts on the 2K bike will be better but what will make the most difference? I the right hubs are chosen the wheels can go on different bikes.


IME, the upgrade in wheels going from an $800 bike to a $2,000 bike isn't going to be all that substantial. Lots of $6,000 bikes out there have surprisingly cheap wheels. There will be some improvement, but it won't be anything like the difference you'd get from having good wheels built for you. You'll likely see a much more significant improvement in other components before the wheels. It seems as though the wheels are the last components to get a significant upgrade when you're looking at stock builds.

And honestly, it's one of the biggest reasons I have been building most of my bikes lately.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Harold said:


> IME, the upgrade in wheels going from an $800 bike to a $2,000 bike isn't going to be all that substantial. Lots of $6,000 bikes out there have surprisingly cheap wheels. There will be some improvement, but it won't be anything like the difference you'd get from having good wheels built for you. You'll likely see a much more significant improvement in other components before the wheels. It seems as though the wheels are the last components to get a significant upgrade when you're looking at stock builds.
> 
> And honestly, it's one of the biggest reasons I have been building most of my bikes lately.


I agree, have the wheels built, that's what I did.

A quick comparison of major brands shows parts shared on $1K to 2K bike builds. Under $1K is a different build. Above 2K the build start to improve across the parts. there are exceptions of course.

Specing and building a custom bike is awesome and the best way to get just what a rider wants when they finally figure out what that is. That doesn't take advantage of a companies buying power and economics of scale. I wonder what a big brand budgets for wheels on a $2K bike build.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

With this being a beginner thread. 

Rebuild cone and cup hubs within a few months of first riding. That'll get more life and with regular rebuilds maybe years of service.

After a season and as skills improve figure out the proper tires for thier terain and go tubeless. 

Those two things are cheap, easy and could be the bigest improvements for the buck.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

scycllerist said:


> I have a 2017 Timberjack NX 29er and have a great time riding it. I upgraded the wheels and tires. At over 200lbs I'm a little hard on bearings. i'm working on skills to help that.


I admit to being curious about you being 'hard on bearings' due to being over 200 lbs. How far over 200 lbs are you?

I generally run between 250 lbs and 300 lbs, and have never found my weight to be an issues with regards to bearings, except with pedals. I do wear pedals out quicker than most. But wheel bearings, headset bearings, and bottom bracket bearings generally give me the same service life as they do other riders.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jeffj said:


> I admit to being curious about you being 'hard on bearings' due to being over 200 lbs. How far over 200 lbs are you?
> 
> I generally run between 250 lbs and 300 lbs, and have never found my weight to be an issues with regards to bearings, except with pedals. I do wear pedals out quicker than most. But wheel bearings, headset bearings, and bottom bracket bearings generally give me the same service life as they do other riders.


I expect it has more to do with most of the other factors not related to rider weight, tbh.

Things like:
Poor maintenance (esp for cheap bearings with poor seals)
Riding in poor conditions
Riding "hard" without finesse
Using high pressure spray around bearings when washing the bike
Cheap bearings

And let me follow my statement by saying that I am guilty of every single one of these things with my first mtb when I was a beginner. I killed that bike to the point that in just a couple years, it would cost more to give it the tlc it needed than to buy a new (and better) bike.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Sealed bearings these days just suck in entry OEM hubs. Formula rear hub bearings on my plus bike I killed in under 300 miles. Cheap bearings and 275 lbs dont mix. Replaced with quality bearings and hub has been great since.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

scycllerist said:


> I agree, wheels and tires make a huge difference. Which leads me to the debate...Is it better to by and entry level bike and put $6-800 in a wheel and tire upgrade or buy a $2k bike? some of the other parts on the 2K bike will be better but what will make the most difference? I the right hubs are chosen the wheels can go on different bikes.


An entry level bike with good wheels will ride far better than one with low end stock wheels but will still be heavy and handle like an entry level bike due to low end parts all over the bike. This level of bike just may hide some of the upgraded wheel feel due to low end suspension and weight.

Before I put $800 dollar wheels on an entry level bike I'd put that $800 with my $700 bike money and start with a $1500 bike.
I'd get better everything and would get back to the wheels next season.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

Harold said:


> I expect it has more to do with most of the other factors not related to rider weight, tbh.
> 
> Things like:
> Poor maintenance (esp for cheap bearings with poor seals)
> ...


I go just over 200lbs.

I ride frequently on rooty trails and was running too much pressure and lacking in finesse. That and cheap bearings. The wheels are still useable. The Praxis bottom bracket was discontinued quickly.

I'm working on riding better and hope to attend a camp this spring.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

Osco said:


> Before I put $800 dollar wheels on an entry level bike I'd put that $800 with my $700 bike money and start with a $1500 bike.
> I'd get better everything and would get back to the wheels next season.


Fine! I just placed an order for a Cujo 1 from my LBS .

I went from a medium frame on my a Raleigh to a large as I was able to compare both sizes albeit from the 2017 line.

It will be in in a few days. Thanks all for a great discussion. I am excited!

-p


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Now I will let you In on one of the great truths..

No Upgrade, no level of bike will make you a better rider faster than saddle time.


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## roadkill401 (Mar 14, 2017)

In reading your original post, I have more worries/questions that I think you need to think about before going forward.



> am wanting to change it up to something with a drivetrain (currently 3x8) that will be a bit easier on the trail and with a slightly better fork (currently coil 100mm) to handle some of the really rough spots. The trails I ride can be quite difficult and I haven't been able to get up all of the climbs yet.


if you are having dificulty getting up the climbs, is this becuase you feel the fork is letting you down? Or is the 3x8 that you just can't seem to get into the right gear?

I ask as the 3x8 will likely give you a wider range of gears than you will get with any 1x style of bike. Where the 1x does have an advantage is that you are only dealing with a single shifter and all the gear options you have are in a consecutive line. So there is no thought needed to predict coming up I will need a low range of gears so I better change into the small front ring now as it will be harder to get there when it's totally needed.

I converted a 3x9 into a 1x9 and found it actually was easier given that I could size the front ring perfectly to give me a range of 9 back gears I could totaly work with on most of the riding that I did. Sure I gave up a load of small and just as many large gears, but the set I had left were usable.

On the same bike, I had a really old Rockshox Psylo that I would hazzard to say was a far worse shock than the Suntour XCR that you have on your current bike. There was no adjustable dampening of any sorts and the the only way to adjust the spring setting was to order a new range from Rockshox and they just didn't make anything for my 260lbs 6'2 frame body I have. So I got the terrible pogo effect unless I cranked the adjustable travel to 50mm or effectively locked out with my preload sag.

I don't want to talk you out of getting a new bike as I just bought a new one knowing that I probably could ride the old bike more, but just really wanted a newer bike. But I feel in your case, it might be more a side of learning skill that is stopping you getting up the technical hills over the limitations passed on by the bike you are riding.

To better make any form of recomendation to the bike you should be looking at, you really need to be brutally honest with yourself and let us know what parts are causing dificulty in your ride. Where you feel your bike is letting you down. No judgements I hope will be made, and if they are, you can just ignore them without any need for shame.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

roadkill401 said:


> In reading your original post, I have more worries/questions that I think you need to think about before going forward.


Thanks for the well thought out post. I have no doubt that someone with more skill, on my Tekoa could make mincemeat of the steep climb I walk up. I don't really think the new bike will make that part any easier, but it would be great if it did. I just was hoping not to make it any harder if there was a difference in how the two bikes handle these kinds of climbs.

The extra 2cm of fork travel aren't going to help me I don't think. I just run out of gas at the same time I need to pop up the front. I think just more saddle time is needed.

The reason for the new bike is that I wanted more options in the rear and a little smoother ride over the roots. I thought originally about new tires, forks, and gearset but the cost seemed to suggest a new bike.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

Ok the next post is going to tell me it won't help my love life either, right?? xD


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

pesteaux said:


> Ok the next post is going to tell me it won't help my love life either, right?? xD


On the contrary, a new bike will turn you into a legend!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## stangmanrider (Oct 18, 2017)

pesteaux said:


> Fine! I just placed an order for a Cujo 1 from my LBS .
> 
> I went from a medium frame on my a Raleigh to a large as I was able to compare both sizes albeit from the 2017 line.
> 
> ...


Great choice! I am loving my new Cujo 1...great HT and with good components for the money. Just finished a tire swap and went tubeless with a set of Maxxis DHF/DHRII. I also went with the size L frame and I am 5'11" 175lbs. Good luck with your Cujo!


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

Harold said:


> On the contrary, a new bike will turn you into a legend!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Woohoo! YouTube here I come!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

pesteaux said:


> Woohoo! YouTube here I come!


You're gonna youtube your legendary love life? That could go well for you.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

stangmanrider said:


> Great choice! I am loving my new Cujo 1...great HT and with good components for the money. Just finished a tire swap and went tubeless with a set of Maxxis DHF/DHRII. I also went with the size L frame and I am 5'11" 175lbs. Good luck with your Cujo!


Thanks man! Perhaps you could answer a quick question? The website claims it has internal cable routing but I don't really see it. Do you have any cables running along the bottom of your top tube?



Harold said:


> You're gonna youtube your legendary love life? That could go well for you.


There is only one way to find out .


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## stangmanrider (Oct 18, 2017)

pesteaux said:


> Thanks man! Perhaps you could answer a quick question? The website claims it has internal cable routing but I don't really see it. Do you have any cables running along the bottom of your top tube?
> 
> There are no cables running along the bottom of the top tube. The shifter and dropper post cables run inside the lower diagonal tube and the rear brake cable runs outside the lower diagonal tube on the left side of the frame sitting on the bike.


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## pesteaux (Feb 9, 2018)

stangmanrider said:


> There are no cables running along the bottom of the top tube. The shifter and dropper post cables run inside the lower diagonal tube and the rear brake cable runs outside the lower diagonal tube on the left side of the frame sitting on the bike.


Thanks, that's good news! My Saris Bones 3 likes to eat those :|.


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