# surly trucker deluxe or troll + s&s ?



## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm thinking of getting a bike that I can fly with and do bikepacking with. Right now I'm thinking about getting a surly troll and having s&s couplers installed, OR getting a surly trucker deluxe (s&s pre-installed) and making it more off-roadish.

I've never really liked drop bars. I test rode a LHT at a local shop (the one and only surly bike they have, lucky it was my size). I nearly hated the cantilever brakes, and I'm not happy about the drops, so if I go with trucker deluxe, I'd probably do something like surly open bar or soma clarence, and v brakes. I like disk brakes, but I think I can live with v brakes. For tires I'd probably do 2.1 nano on either bike (I have 2.1 nanos on both my 29ers). It's tempting to be able to go way fat in the tire department, but realistically I'd probably never do it.

Currently I ride a niner EMD with niner carbon fork and a trek cobia 29er. I actually prefer to ride the niner w/o the suspension. These are more mountainy than I actually ride. I do ride in dirt and rocks, but probably 80% paved.

So, given all that, any thoughts/opinions about making a choice between those 2 options?

Thanks!


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## FrontRanger (Apr 28, 2004)

I see lots of reasons in your statements above to not get an LHT but not a single one not to get a Troll. That tells you alot.


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## Lone Desert Walker (Sep 15, 2011)

Just remember that you can put big tires and small tires on a mountain bike frame but you can only put small tires on a road bike. Why limit your options? I would look at the Ogre, the Troll, and the 1x1. If you really wanted to remain flexible you could get a Pugsley and lace up some 700c wheels for touring, then if you felt like it you could go fat or somewhere in between. I think the Pugsley is the most versitile bike in the universe. LHT are nice too I guess, if you like to be restricted. Do you like to be restricted?:skep:


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## rusheleven (Jan 19, 2012)

Ogre. Add thinner tires. Learn how to strip the bike down to the frame and build it up again on your own. Bam.
Great travel bike with all the braze on's you could need. ready to rock.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

I'll third the Ogre. 29" wheels equal more comfort while touring and a greater variety of touring tire options. Get s&s couplers added if you want. I'll also second the Pugsley for maximum versatility, though the offset rear end bugs me visually.


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## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

Can I get a split (s&s couplers) and disassembled ogre into an airline acceptable bag? Anybody ever done this (or seen/heard of it being accomplished)? This is pretty tempting. I'd be able to scrounge all my parts (including wheels) off one of my existing 29ers. I even have a karate monkey fork sitting around.

One big reason for troll/trucker is that all the global tourers say that it's way better to have 26" ("standard") wheels. I'd like to believe that I'll get out of the country someday on this bike.

One thing I haven't mentioned is that I live on Oahu, and I'm afraid there's nobody here to install the S&S couplers. So one reason to get the trucker deluxe is that I can order it at the local surly dealer, and have them build it up for me. You know, support the LBS.


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## jmmUT (Sep 15, 2008)

If you happen to be doing anywhere outside of US, Canada, or Europe you have to have 26" wheels. No doubt about it. You will have hell finding 700c/29 rims/tires/tubes. But 26" is pretty much universal. This is why Surly offers both 700c and 26" LHTs.


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## SimpleJon (Mar 28, 2011)

jmmorath said:


> If you happen to be doing anywhere outside of US, Canada, or Europe you have to have 26" wheels. No doubt about it. You will have hell finding 700c/29 rims/tires/tubes. But 26" is pretty much universal. This is why Surly offers both 700c and 26" LHTs.


I've toured on both 26 and 700c and that was definitely true 10 years ago, but 700c bikes are getting a lot more common all over the world in my recent experience. Also most of the places that don't sell 700c only sell 26" tires that you wouldn't want to use - If traveling with panniers its not a big deal to carry a couple of extra tires and tubes - I always do regardless of wheel size and so far never had an issue


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## Lone Desert Walker (Sep 15, 2011)

*26inch*

26inch wheels are good for post apocalyptic riding. Check out this blog and note the number one "commandment" The Apocalyptic Bicyclist I always wondered if you could fit a wider 26in tire in the 26in trucker since the tire sits where the stays/fork are opened up more or if the frame is different on the 26in version.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

26" wheels may be good for after the apocalypse, but 29er frames are better, since you can put 26" wheels in them too.


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## bb1mina (Feb 10, 2008)

since you already have two 29er bikes in your stable, the surly ogre makes more sense

like what they said ^^^ just bring a couple of spare tubes and a tire or two, plus some spare spokes in the right length, and you're all set for touring

your lbs can probably help with s&s couplers, or try emailing surly bikes about getting it installed 

and, disc brakes are a big plus for me, compared to cantilever brakes 

i actually had the troll on order a couple of months ago for my teenage son who is presently using a 1x1 frame equipped with front/rear racks with pannier bags (for "weight training"), but changed my mind when he tried my karate monkey for the first time last week and said he likes the way bigger wheels ride (he's grown a lot taller during the long wait for the troll frame)

i'm now waiting for the ogre frame which is due to arrive in my lbs anytime now, and i'm excited that my son's bike will finally become geared and be ready to tackle the big climbs in our place


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

I built this...









that morphed into this...









when I built this I knew from the moment I started riding it...









that it was what I wanted all along...









it's officially dialed and totally awesome.


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## nubcake (Nov 16, 2007)

If you are touring out of country I would also want 26in wheels. You can find parts anywhere and they are stronger if you are carrying a heavy load. These guys finished their tour not too long ago and this is what they have to say about wheel size. 26″ vs 700c for a touring bike: The definitive answer | Family on Bikes

The way I look at it, get the troll if you would like to mountain bike with it as well or plan to ride a rohloff, or even if you plan to find quite a bit of sticky mud and need the tire clearance. Get the LHT if you plan to spend more time on pavement or not much more than dirt roads (although it is capable of more, just not as good at is as the troll) Personally I like the troll for just about everything, but I am biased as I own one.


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## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

Saddle Up:

I'm glad you stopped by. Somebody with actual experience with the 2 bikes I'm asking about. Can you describe/explain how/why the LHT ended up being the right thing for you? What riding are you doing that this is better? Are there situations where you'd rather be on the troll?

And what tires do you have on there for riding in the snow? Isn't it against some surly law to go snow riding on anything other than a pugsley or moonlander?


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## strangeagent (Sep 25, 2011)

I am curious about the difference between the 26 inch lht and troll as well.


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

Lone Desert Walker said:


> 26inch wheels are good for post apocalyptic riding. Check out this blog and note the number one "commandment" The Apocalyptic Bicyclist I always wondered if you could fit a wider 26in tire in the 26in trucker since the tire sits where the stays/fork are opened up more or if the frame is different on the 26in version.


I'm running serfas drifter 26x2.0 on my lht (54cm) and you can't go much bigger. The biggest problem is that even with 2.0's there's not enough room to get inflated tires past the brake pads. Its really annoying to fix a flat, pump up the tire, and then realize that you have to either take off part of your brakes or let some air back out to reinstall the wheel. this is for front wheel only, so you could put on a different fork.

but disc trucker fixes this issue, regardless and you can probably run 2.1 tires. maybe this varies a bit with the size of the bike.

What I do love about the lht is the classical looking frame geometry. There's just something highly appealing to the horizontal top tube... at least for looking at.

I'm thinking about buying a troll. After damaging a 29er wheel just pumping a little jump in the trail, I'm pretty sure the next frame I get will be the troll rather than the ogre I'd been considering. I'm going to put flat-ish bars on the troll and 2.5+ tires. This will be a fun single track bike useful for getting a solid workout on otherwise moderate group rides.


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## nubcake (Nov 16, 2007)

How much off road are you hoping to do with the bike? I really like the fact I can run 2.7's (or 2.1's with plenty of mud clearance) on my troll. Not sure if this helps but these guys probably have more loaded miles on a troll than anyone. A troll is born (in Costa Rica) « while out riding


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## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

PretendGentleman said:


> I'm running serfas drifter 26x2.0 on my lht (54cm) and you can't go much bigger. The biggest problem is that even with 2.0's there's not enough room to get inflated tires past the brake pads. Its really annoying to fix a flat, pump up the tire, and then realize that you have to either take off part of your brakes or let some air back out to reinstall the wheel. this is for front wheel only, so you could put on a different fork.


What kind of brakes? I would think that with direct pull/v brakes or traditional cantilever brakes that the brakes would be able to get completely out of the way for the tires.


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## Bearbait (Jan 14, 2004)

I'd love to see someone's Troll retrofitted with S&S and hear of who did the work. That's pretty much my dream travel mountain bike / touring rig and have been thinking of looking into it further.


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## NicholasGault (Jun 1, 2011)

nubcake said:


> If you are touring out of country I would also want 26in wheels. You can find parts anywhere and they are stronger if you are carrying a heavy load....
> 
> So for long distance touring (e.g. spine of the Andes or Alaska to Argentina), the general consensus would favour the Troll over the Ogre? And, just to confirm, one reason for this would be because it's harder to find 29er wheels that can take loads like the 26er can? Is this because of the physics of a bigger wheel or is it that there aren't any decent 29 inch touring tyres (both road & MTB options) /rims/spokes out there that are as strong / durable as the 26 options? If there are, please let me know what the options are.
> 
> ...


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## Addy Marx (Jul 18, 2009)

*Lht*

I built this up last fall for my out of country tours. I rode it in Chile and Argentina this last November and December and it was perfect. I own a 56cm trucker built up more roadie/gravel grinder style that I've used lots over the past number of years, internationally as well.

I got the 54 LHT because I wanted to fit fatter rubber in the frame. I wanted to build it up more like a mountain bike and I wanted a frame that had a lot of space for a good sized frame bag. This trip was an exercise in 'rackless international touring'. Not just a 3 or 4 day bike packing trip exclusive to singletrack and spandex.

While having never ridden a troll, I did think long and hard about it over the 54 LHT before settling on the LHT. I'm very glad I went the LHT route. As of right now this is my perfect touring/traveling bike.

I sewed all the bags (except the seat bag) myself. They held up perfectly, I was proud!

For a traveling do all bike it's hard to beat the LHT.


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

Saddle Up said:


> I built this...
> that it was what I wanted all along...
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice bike. I've always admired Surly's practicality. Their choice of colors is another matter. But isn't that why God invented the powder coater?


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## alan ss (Oct 21, 2009)

SimonHughes546 said:


> nubcake said:
> 
> 
> > I definitely want something that can go on some decent off road so wouldn't consider the LHT but, aside from the above and the fact that replacement parts harder to find, the Ogre seemed like a good option as I can imagine it would cover distance more effortlessly than the Troll. Even *if it's only, for example, 5%* difference this would add up considerably over a long distance. I'm 6'4" and about 80kg.
> ...


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## nubcake (Nov 16, 2007)

> If you are touring out of country I would also want 26in wheels. You can find parts anywhere and they are stronger if you are carrying a heavy load....
> 
> So for long distance touring (e.g. spine of the Andes or Alaska to Argentina), the general consensus would favour the Troll over the Ogre? And, just to confirm, one reason for this would be because it's harder to find 29er wheels that can take loads like the 26er can? Is this because of the physics of a bigger wheel or is it that there aren't any decent 29 inch touring tyres (both road & MTB options) /rims/spokes out there that are as strong / durable as the 26 options? If there are, please let me know what the options are.
> 
> ...


There are plenty of great options for 29'er wheels and tires that can handle the loads, in the states. The problem is finding something other than 26in outside of the states and maybe Canada and parts of Europe. Worst case you can find 26in stuff in big box stores in an emergency.


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## nubcake (Nov 16, 2007)

wow, the quote thing is all screwy right now


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

phlatphrog said:


> Saddle Up:
> 
> I'm glad you stopped by. Somebody with actual experience with the 2 bikes I'm asking about. Can you describe/explain how/why the LHT ended up being the right thing for you? What riding are you doing that this is better? Are there situations where you'd rather be on the troll?
> 
> And what tires do you have on there for riding in the snow? Isn't it against some surly law to go snow riding on anything other than a pugsley or moonlander?





strangeagent said:


> I am curious about the difference between the 26 inch lht and troll as well.


The Troll feels like a mountain bike, longish top tube short head tube. Great if you are riding terrain where you constantly moving around on the bike, really sucked for pounding out the miles on the open road. I could never get comfortable enough on it over long distance rides. The name Troll is totally suitable for how the bike rides and feels, it always feels slow, even geared. It's awesome as a tractor. I would tour on it only if I was actually mountain touring like the Divide Ride for instance, I would start to hate the bike if touring involved long stretches of pavement.

The LHT is designed for pounding out long days in the saddle all while remaining supremely comfortable. The long wheelbase makes it feel as stable as a freight train. I've gone through 4 different stem handlebar combinations and the handling of the bike never changed at all whether I had short/long stems, no rise/high rise bars, it just got better and better as it got more dialed in. It started off feeling really good, now it's perfection, I'd ride this bike around the world.

When I first built the LHT I used a set of wire bead Kenda Nevegal 2.1 I had kicking around. I was so impressed with how the bike rode and just plowed through everything it was faced with I bought a set of 1.95s in the folding bead version. They can run up to 80psi. I'm amazed at how fast this tire rolls considering the knobby tread and available traction off road. In the snow nothing compares to Nevegals IMO.

The Orgre has been mentioned as an option in this thread I've noticed. I also own this bike. Same as the Troll only bigger wheels...









I would choose the LHT over the KM and Troll for adventure touring everytime. The only competition the LHT has is the Co-Motion Pangea, even the Pangea has a lower BB than the LHT and costs what?, four times as much?

I absolutely love both my Troll and KM , just not as touring bikes.


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## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

Great first-hand reports, Saddle Up. I've some questions for you:

Do you tour much through mountains? How have those cantilevers held up under load?

I live to your south in Idaho and I've long considered purchasing a touring bike to complement my trail monster. My gray areas are gearing ratios and disc brakes vs. cantilevers.

Thanks.


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

@ hdparrish, given the choice I'd consider going disc brakes all though cantis work fine. With anything but road bike levers V-Brakes would be even better. The bike I have was built using as many parts as I could from a 94 Rocky Blizzard, wanted to do it on the cheap for winter. Now that spring is here the bike will be rebuilt using modern Deore compents including the hubs and v-brakes. The disc version of the LHT would be more appealling to me if it also included the brake studs. I want all of the options. 

The perfect crankset gearing IMO is 28/38/48, I never really think about wheel size riding the LHT. When I ride mountain bikes with 26" wheels they seem too small. I'll likely build a 26" disc brake LHT for my wife and see if I can squeeze some 650b tires in there.


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

phlatphrog said:


> What kind of brakes? I would think that with direct pull/v brakes or traditional cantilever brakes that the brakes would be able to get completely out of the way for the tires.


calf catchers. It would be an issue with any brakes, as the tail-end of the brake pad hits the fork as the brake opens. If the pad is loosened and rotated out of the way, you can get a fat tire in and out, but now you've got to readjust your brake pads...


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## NicholasGault (Jun 1, 2011)

alan ss said:


> SimonHughes546 said:
> 
> 
> > Please explain how a larger heavier wheel and tire is going to improve performance by 5% or more. From what I've read, a 700C wheel with a 29" tire will roll better over logs and large rocks (not typical touring), but in strength to weight, you are better off with a 26" wheel. A lighter, stronger wheel will out accelerate and out climb the larger heavier wheel, and last longer.
> ...


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## bb1mina (Feb 10, 2008)

@saddleup

hope you don't mind me asking, what size is your drop-bar karate monkey?
also, what's your handlebar-stem setup?

btw, nice bike!

bb1


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

thanks bb1, it's a 16". The bar is a WTB Mountain/Road drop the stem is a Ritchey Pro 90mm/30degree.


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## bb1mina (Feb 10, 2008)

thanks!


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## SimpleJon (Mar 28, 2011)

SaddleUp is spot on saying that the LHT is the best option for adventure touring - comfort and stability. I've made the mistake of front and rear racks on bikes not specifically designed to carry loads and it is **** scary when the the frame / fork starts flexing at even moderate speeds in descent. Surly has the LHT design spot on for carrying loads IMO, there are better frames out there but they are 3X the price minimum. If you ever intend to put panniers on with a moderate load, I don't think there is a better production frame than the LHT, decent wheels and tires and correct gearing it's ok offroad but a full sus it aint - If you wanna go mountain biking get a mountain bike. If you want to go mountain biking and adventure touring at the same time - get a Thorn Nomad Mk2 - but it is going to cost you significantly more than a LHT and is still a compromise
As for the 700c - 26 debate - I think it is more important to get a very good set of wheels in the preferred size - getting wheels (or anything) fixed in the third world is a pain in the ass and best avoided regardless of size, very easy if your happy to use a 26" steel rim with coat hangers for spokes. I use DT TK540 36h touring 29er rims on Phil Wood hubs, built by a v good builder never had an issue - cost over $1000 though. Most of the gripes I've heard has been more due to incompetence and cutting corners; expecting stock wheelsets to go thousands of Km with heavy loads etc.

BTW: I don't own a LHT but have been on the road with guys that have them, so have ridden them loaded a few times.


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

SimpleJon said:


> SaddleUp is spot on saying that the LHT is the best option for adventure touring - comfort and stability. I've made the mistake of front and rear racks on bikes not specifically designed to carry loads and it is **** scary when the the frame / fork starts flexing at even moderate speeds in descent. Surly has the LHT design spot on for carrying loads IMO, there are better frames out there but they are 3X the price minimum. If you ever intend to put panniers on with a moderate load, I don't think there is a better production frame than the LHT, decent wheels and tires and correct gearing it's ok offroad but a full sus it aint - If you wanna go mountain biking get a mountain bike. If you want to go mountain biking and adventure touring at the same time - get a Thorn Nomad Mk2 - but it is going to cost you significantly more than a LHT and is still a compromise
> As for the 700c - 26 debate - I think it is more important to get a very good set of wheels in the preferred size - getting wheels (or anything) fixed in the third world is a pain in the ass and best avoided regardless of size, very easy if your happy to use a 26" steel rim with coat hangers for spokes. I use DT TK540 36h touring 29er rims on Phil Wood hubs, built by a v good builder never had an issue - cost over $1000 though. Most of the gripes I've heard has been more due to incompetence and cutting corners; expecting stock wheelsets to go thousands of Km with heavy loads etc.
> 
> BTW: I don't own a LHT but have been on the road with guys that have them, so have ridden them loaded a few times.


before getting my LHT I rode an early 90's giant yukon frame with a big dummy fork as fully loaded touring bike. Both bikes are equally at home with heavy loads (90lb with bike).

I very much agree about not expecting much out of stock wheels. To me the most important predictor of wheel failure is spoke quality. If those spokes aren't from dt, wheelsmith, marwi or another reputable spoke manufacturer, expect to break rear non-drive spokes starting after a few hundred miles.

I would also recommend against using sealed bearing hubs. The aluminum where the outer bearing race sits is prone to damage that is far worse than a scarred inner cup on an unsealed hub. Of course sealed hubs work great until there's a problem, but I've seen too many bearing replacements in (even high-quality) sealed hubs turn into warranty/trash-bin jobs.


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## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

*Next step*

Well, it looks like this thread is petering out. Thanks everybody for your opinions. This may shock/disturb some of the contributors, but I'm even more heavily leaning toward the trucker deluxe solution. The fact that I have a 29er already (actually two, but I plan to get rid of one) is an anti-ogre argument, since I'm looking for versatility. And the opinions of those who know both the troll and the LHT seems to be pretty heavy in the direction of LHT for what I want to do.

Assuming I do go for a trucker deluxe, and since it doesn't come complete, I'll have to decide on what components to put on it. The most brain-dead approach would be to tell the shop to just put what comes with a plain LHT on it. Anybody have opinions about that kit, and what they would do different?


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

phlatphrog said:


> Well, it looks like this thread is petering out. Thanks everybody for your opinions. This may shock/disturb some of the contributors, but I'm even more heavily leaning toward the trucker deluxe solution. The fact that I have a 29er already (actually two, but I plan to get rid of one) is an anti-ogre argument, since I'm looking for versatility. And the opinions of those who know both the troll and the LHT seems to be pretty heavy in the direction of LHT for what I want to do.
> 
> Assuming I do go for a trucker deluxe, and since it doesn't come complete, I'll have to decide on what components to put on it. The most brain-dead approach would be to tell the shop to just put what comes with a plain LHT on it. Anybody have opinions about that kit, and what they would do different?


The surely completes are a good deal, not sure if deluxe has a complete option though.

If you've got to build the bike up part by part, you can surely do better than copying the stock build, if nothing else just by picking comparable parts that are cheaper (which will certainly be possible for some parts).

Barend shifters on drops can hit your legs during offroad excursions, so that might be something to avoid.


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## Addy Marx (Jul 18, 2009)

*Next Step*

phlatphrog,

Obviously parts selection can be a very personal. I will just highlight what has worked for me. My goals when building my travel bike were simple. I do not want to be thinking about anything failing on me, period. Durability and proven parts choices were key. If something does unfortunately go wrong, I have plans to get me out, but for the most part, things that shouldn't go wrong shouldn't go wrong especially when I am on vacation.

Dura ace bar end shifters for drop bars/Dura ace bar end shifter with Paul's thumbies for the flat/riser bars, set friction of course. Flawless, trouble free shifting.

Seats are a hot topic but for touring/all day type rides the best seat I have used is my selle anatomica. Far superior to the Brooks B-17 it replaced and I loved that thing, until I saw the light.

Hand built wheels by someone who knows what they're doing and understands the goals of your build. In my opinion always worth the money, especially when you could be out and about in 'the middle of nowhere'. 
I like XT hubs on mavic rims with DT spokes holding everything together.

Ergon grips for flat/risers.. Double wrapped cork tape for drops.

Sugino XD triple. 26, 36, 46. Cheap, look great, work perfectly fine...1000's and 1000's of kilometers on the same set of rings.

Deore deraileurs work well enough for me on a bike like this. 3x9.

V's are stronger than canti's and easier to set up. Have not tried them on a drop bar with a drop V lever though.

Schwalbe marathon _______ insert tire choice here. I've used duremes and extremes. both great, no problems.

Speedplay frogs.

I am light, pack light and ride smooth. For a build like this durability was key over weight.

Spend the money on the stuff that matters.
Good Luck!


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## rth009 (May 20, 2010)

*Anybody S&S an ogre/karate monkey or other 29er and fit it in airline bag?*



phlatphrog said:


> Can I get a split (s&s couplers) and disassembled ogre into an airline acceptable bag? Anybody ever done this (or seen/heard of it being accomplished)? This is pretty tempting.


I am very much contemplating an Ogre with S&S couplers for when I travel. I will mostly be traveling in the US, but will also likely take it overseas every couple years but will not be touring in remote areas.

I would like the option to pack a suspension fork in the airline case as well. I really really really dont want to have to ride tiny wheels, but need a bike I can transport with me.


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## LostBoyScout (Feb 7, 2008)

nubcake said:


> The problem is finding something other than 26in outside of the states and maybe Canada and parts of Europe. Worst case you can find 26in stuff in big box stores in an emergency.


Canada? Canada and the US have the same bike stuff availability.

I think worrying about wheel size for availability reasons only applies if you plan to spend a lot of time in less developed areas of the world (not Canada!). Not a problem in Europe but maybe a concern through parts of Asia, Africa, South America, etc.

I love the LHT because it is the quintessential "bike". You can use it for absolutely anything, without any unnecessary complexity. It really reaches that inner child in us from way back when a bike was just a bike, you didn't need different ones to do different things. Bikes like the Troll have all the braze-ons to do anything too, but they lack that perfect simplicity of the LHT.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I've got both the 26" & 700c wheeled LHT in a 58cm frame size. They are great touring bikes. My only concern with them for "adventure" touring is that they have a really low BB and they aren't designed for use of a suspension fork. I get loads of pedal strike once the terrain gets lumpy.










For paved use and gravel they do great with appropriate tires.

As things get rougher I'd want a different bike.










A Surly Pugsley makes a really great dirt\gravel tourer and is not slowed down my those large tires since they act as suspension on rough surfaces.










I was going to buy an Ogre, but ended up with an On One Scandal 29er MTB which is a fun dirt/gravel machine as well.

If the OP doesn't want drop bars I'd go with an Ogre and throw on some bar ends or install a Titec H-bar for extra hand positions. The 29er wheels roll well and you can add a suspension fork if you want to for some trips.

The Troll's 26" wheels are a benefit if you'll be travelling internationally for so many months at a time that you'll use up both tires and the spare you'll be carrying. For shorter trips with a 29er carrying a spare tire gives you a lot of range and if you are using discs you only have to worry about catastrophic rim failures which are rare on a well tensioned wheel.

*One thing you'll need to confirm with a 29er is that the wheels will fit into your travel suitcase of choice*. People fly with S&S 700c bikes, but obviously the fit will be tighter than a 26" wheel. If you don't want to futz around much and aren't attached to 29er wheels that could be a reason to get the Troll.


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## InertiaMan (Apr 16, 2004)

Phlatphrog,

I've got a fair amount of experience w/ S&S coupled packing and touring, so thought I would offer some comments.

S&S are absolutely awesome for international travel. You save considerable cash on the baggage rates, its easier to toss the case into cabs, onto buses, etc.

For domestic travel, I've quit using my S&S bike, and quit flying my bike. As long as your standard bike case is less than the 130 inch length+girth (some aren't), you can ship it for hardly more than the current $25-50 "second bag" costs on airlines. I ship a 70 pound bike case Seattle to Denver for $55 via FedEx ground, and you avoid all the airport hassle.

The Trucker Deluxe is (a) a nearly perfect execution of a touring bike, and (b) far and away the cheapest/easiest way to get your hands on an S&S bike. Conversions aren't cheap. $500 is about the cheapest you can find (I used Bilenky and liked them). But then you're left w/ half-assed touch up paint, or another $150-200 at the powder coater.

For anything other than trail riding, I think the Trucker Deluxe is an excellent choice. But it will never take a front shock. If you want to ride trails and use a front shock on your travel bike, then converting a standard frame is your only option, and the Troll is one option among many (albeit one of the more flexible options).

For me, having one S&S travel and touring bike in the quiver is essential. I've used mine extensively. My international trips are generally touring, so a Trucker Deluxe fits the bill. My MTB travel is largely domestic, so I just ship my Sultan via FedEx and the lack of S&S is a non-issue.

Packing 700c wheels does complicate the S&S packing considerably. I have a 62cm 700c Soma Double Cross (S&S converted in 2005). I made my own case out of coroplast which is 27x27.5, but its still nearly rocket science to pack it. Yet it can be done, including fenders and Tubus racks! I envy those w/ the 26" Trucker Deluxe.

Also, dealing with the assembly/disassembly of S&S bikes is non-trivial. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone not able to build a bike from parts, or willing to learn to do so. 

If you have any wanderlust, I don't think you'll regret getting a Trucker Deluxe.


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## Yukon Alvin (Dec 30, 2010)

Me think Inertia Man is bang on. Was about to say S&S aren't cheap, had $800 quote in Canada to install on my touring bike. My wife has a little LHT with 26" wheels and its a solid bike. A big one with 700 and S&S would last a life time. Do they still come with brake post for rim brakes? If so, you have option of disc and rims, 26 and 700. LHT deluxe +1


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## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

So I'm sitting on a quote from my local shop for a surly trucker deluxe. At the last minute I asked them to quote a build with an Alfine 11 speed. So basically what I'm looking at is a LHT with shimano v brakes, s&s couplers pre-installed, and an IGH (and some kind of mountain bar). I'm thinking it's going to be super simple to maintain, and pretty good for breakdown/rebuild. I won't call it totally bombproof, but I think that it will be super reliable, given that I'm not going around the world on it.

Regarding "domestic" travel/shipping. I live on Oahu, and travel several times/year to California. Call it 2-4 trips/year, which is 4-8 transocean transports of my bicycle (assuming I take it every time, which is what I want to do). 

I sent one bike via fedex once, one way. That cost me over $300. I was foolish and rushed, and could have done better with USPS if I'd planned further ahead. The point is that "domestic" isn't always cheap. With the couplers, I'll be able to pack the bike in a box and sent it USPS for about $35 one way. That may be worthwhile sometimes so as to not have to deal with airline hassles at $25 for checked baggage. I guess the cheapest regular shipping I could do with a regular bike box (non-coupled) would be like $100 via slow USPS. (Maybe I'm making that up.)

Anyway, it's pretty easy for me to justify the s&s couplers ($500). It's not quite as easy to justify an entire new bicycle with couplers ($2.5k) but that's the way I'm headed. Too bad all my other bikes were/are aluminum. I sold 2 bikes to bring in $1k towards this new purchase. I plan to hang on to my niner EMD w/carbon fork. That should provide me a good change of pace if/when I get tired of riding the LHT. 

That's the news from Kapolei.


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## Addy Marx (Jul 18, 2009)

Post pictures of your build when you're all done.


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## InertiaMan (Apr 16, 2004)

The Hawaii thing definitely skews the domestic discussion. You don't have 3-day $50 shipping options all over the US West that I do. If you're travelling that much to/from Hawaii, then S&S would absolutely be a worthy investment. 

But even if you conclude you'll use S&S, you still need to decide what sort of frame to buy. If you want a touring frame, then I still think the TD is smarter than doing a conversion. If you want something other than a touring bike, then a conversion is your one option and I wouldn't hesitate.

Keep in mind you'll also need to ship this to/from the framebuilder doing the conversion. I'm gonna make a wild guess that there aren't any S&S "certified" builders in Hawaii. My suggestion: chose your frame, mail order it on the mainland, have it shipped directly to Bilenky, have them do the conversion, then ship it to you (which will be a pretty small box) via USPS to Hawaii.

I'd pick whatever frame you like from Surly or Soma, maybe Salsa, and go that route. You can get Surly frame/fork combos for $400 mail order, Soma not much more. You can get a converted frame shipped to your door for $1000-ish, same as a TD. The primary difference is the paint will be compromised on the converted frame, unless you spend additional $$ to re-finish. Bilenky and most frame buiilders want $300+ for paint. I did a nice metallic powder coat + clear coat on my converted Soma for under $200. When I originally did the conversion, I just used auto touch-up paint, and rode the hell out of the bike for 3 years. Once it was looking fairly beat up, I took it in for a powder coat, and now it looks brand new. 

Not to get you too far off route, but you can also pack down many full suspension bikes into 26x26 cases if you remove the rear swingarm assembly. I've packed XL Turner Flux and Five Spots into no-surcharge cases several times.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Bearbait said:


> I'd love to see someone's Troll retrofitted with S&S and hear of who did the work. That's pretty much my dream travel mountain bike / touring rig and have been thinking of looking into it further.


Bilenky will install S&S couplers. The sands machine site lists other certified builders who can do it as well:

Retrofits

Folding Travel Bikes using S and S Machine Bicycle Torque Couplings™


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## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

I went by the shop today and made a first payment on the surly trucker deluxe. We'll see how long it takes to get everything and build it. Will post pix when I get.


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## InertiaMan (Apr 16, 2004)

*Heavy!*

I had a chance to get a Trucker Deluxe on a scale yesterday, and was shocked at how freaking heavy these things are. A 46cm model (tiny!) weighed 8 pounds for frame/fork (bare, no headset, no BB, full steerer). Yes, 8 pounds. The couplers are an insignificant contribution to that (adds about 5 oz.).

Admittedly, these frames will carry a full load with hardly a wiggle. But I think the smaller sizes are over-designed. Presumably Surly specs one tubing type across the entire size range, which is a shame. These smaller frames are subject to far less stress than a larger frame -- the total weight of rider + gear is << 200 pounds (120-130 lb rider + 40 pounds gear) and the the top tube and down tube are MUCH shorter so could be adequately rigid with a ligher, thinner-wall spec.

This 46cm Trucker Deluxe weighs _pounds _more than my 64cm Soma Double Cross!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

InertiaMan said:


> I had a chance to get a Trucker Deluxe on a scale yesterday, and was shocked at how freaking heavy these things are. A 46cm model (tiny!) weighed 8 pounds for frame/fork (bare, no headset, no BB, full steerer). Yes, 8 pounds. The couplers are an insignificant contribution to that (adds about 5 oz.).


Surly's published specs for a 58cm LHT without couplers is 7.4lbs. So you are in the ballpark. These aren't light frames and the tubing is basic. If you want size specific tubing variations you'll need to pay for it and shop in a different brand than Surly.

I own a 58cm LHT [actually 2 of them!] I would rate them about middle of the road for stiffness in the touring world. I had much stiffer touring bikes and I wouldn't suggest the LHTs won't wiggle under a typical full touring load - at least in the 58cm size they will, but having owned a touring frame that was so stiff it wouldn't flex I can tell you more stiffness isn't necessarily a desirable thing.

Although LHTs are made in small sizes they may not be ideal as they would be so much stiffer than the larger sizes. I think the unneeded stiffness is a much bigger problem for a small rider than a few extra pounds in frame weight.


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## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

InertiaMan said:


> I had a chance to get a Trucker Deluxe on a scale yesterday, and was shocked at how freaking heavy these things are. A 46cm model (tiny!) weighed 8 pounds for frame/fork (bare, no headset, no BB, full steerer). Yes, 8 pounds. The couplers are an insignificant contribution to that (adds about 5 oz.).


Since the fork itself is about 2.11 lbs (here) the frame itself, including couplers, would be 5.9 lbs, or thereabout, yes? Since you were weighing a trucker deluxe, that already includes the couplers, right?

It's a little scary when you say "8 pounds for the frame" but it all adds up.


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## InertiaMan (Apr 16, 2004)

vikb said:


> Surly's published specs for a 58cm LHT without couplers is 7.4lbs. .


Where do you see this spec? On the Surly website, it currently shows no weight for the LHT, at least not that I can find. The weight is shown for the 700c Disc Trucker. In 58cm is 5 pounds 11 ounces. I presume the non-disc version isn't 1.6 pounds heavier. Or, if you're counting the fork, then the number is off in the opposite direction (fork is ~2.2 pounds).


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

InertiaMan said:


> Where do you see this spec? On the Surly website, it currently shows no weight for the LHT, at least not that I can find. The weight is shown for the 700c Disc Trucker. In 58cm is 5 pounds 11 ounces. I presume the non-disc version isn't 1.6 pounds heavier. Or, if you're counting the fork, then the number is off in the opposite direction (fork is ~2.2 pounds).


http://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/SURLYLongHaul.pdf

The weight I quoted is frame + fork.

The frame + fork weight they give for the 58cm disc trucker is 3.17kg or 8.18lbs. Which is right at about what you weighed your Trucker Deluxe.

http://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/Surly_Trucker_Deluxe.pdf

The Surly Trucker Deluxe instructions list a 56cm frame/fork as 7.32lbs.

Bottom line I would say is that 8lbs measured weight isn't far from the published specs which depending which reference you look at is between 7.3lbs and 8.18lbs.

No matter how you slice it these aren't light frames.

BTW - for an additional reference Surly lists the 20" Ogre frame/fork as 3.9kg or 8.6lbs

Ogre | Bikes | Surly Bikes


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## InertiaMan (Apr 16, 2004)

phlatphrog said:


> It's a little scary when you say "8 pounds for the frame" but it all adds up.


I didn't say "8 pounds for the frame." I said 8 pounds for frame/fork.

The new 2012 fork w/ custom crown and dropouts appears to be a bit heavier.

Exact weights on my gram scale:
46cm 26" Trucker Deluxe frame = 2580g (~5.7 lbs)
uncut 2012 LHT fork = 1070g (~2.3 lbs)


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## InertiaMan (Apr 16, 2004)

vikb said:


> http://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/Surly_Trucker_Deluxe.pdf
> 
> The Surly Trucker Deluxe instructions list a 56cm frame/fork as 7.32lbs.
> 
> ...


I agree these aren't light frames, never expected them to be. What I'm trying to make sense of is just how heavy they actually are.

The very document you cite above (the Trucker Deluxe pdf) lists a 56cm frame as weighing 2210g (=4.88 lbs). Yet I have a 46cm frame sitting on my gram scale as I speak which weighs 2580g (=5.7 pounds). That is RADICALLY off from their published specs. Even if I were weighing a 56cm model, the weight would be 17% higher than published. The fact that I'm weighing a model 4 sizes smaller, yet it still weighs 17% more, is ridiculous.

In contrast, their published weight on the new fork is spot on.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

InertiaMan said:


> I agree these aren't light frames, never expected them to be. What I'm trying to make sense of is just how heavy they actually are.


The published weights from Surly seem to vary quite a bit and I would expect the S&S coupled LHT to be the heaviest of the bunch. At this point you know how much your frame weighs.

You can:

- ride it and enjoy it
- contact Surly and complain
- ask whomever you bought it from for your $$$ back

I don't really see any other options.


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## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

vikb said:


> ...
> 
> You can:
> 
> ...


Another option is he could post his findings publicly so that other people who are interested can learn stuff, and then make more informed decisions for themselves. I didn't get the impression he was complaining, per se, just that he was sharing something he found surprising & interesting.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

phlatphrog said:


> Another option is he could post his findings publicly so that other people who are interested can learn stuff, and then make more informed decisions for themselves. I didn't get the impression he was complaining, per se, just that he was sharing something he found surprising & interesting.


I didn't list that since that mission has been accomplished. I was just throwing out ideas for moving forward on the issue.


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## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

*here it is*


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## bcelos (Jun 4, 2012)

not bad


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

Looks really good. What size of suitcase would you need?


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## phlatphrog (Jul 13, 2010)

Saddle Up said:


> Looks really good. What size of suitcase would you need?


Supposed to fit in 26"x26"x10" but I haven't attempted that yet.


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## InertiaMan (Apr 16, 2004)

Phlatphrog said:
_Another option is he could post his findings publicly so that other people who are interested can learn stuff, and then make more informed decisions for themselves. I didn't get the impression he was complaining, per se, just that he was sharing something he found surprising & interesting._

Thanks for the "defense" phlatphrog. I was just sharing real, quantified data that contradicted the (apparently) inaccurate data on the Surly site. Didn't think there was anything wrong with expressing my relative surprise at the observations.

Moving along . . . I can offer some packing advice. 26x26x10 is technically possible, but can be difficult, and can require substantial disassembly, depending on frame size.

I've used S&S cases, funky modified (but genuine) suitcases, and coroplast. After my experiences, my personal preference and recommendation is coroplast. The other cases are so damn heavy that you are likely to exceed the 50 pound limits now used by most airlines. I packed the aforementioned 46cm Deluxe Trucker into a case, and I had to move the chain, pedals, seat and seatpost to another bag in order to keep the bike case at 49.5 pounds.

On the other hand, I have a 64cm Soma Double Cross w/ S&S couplers, and I custom constructed a functional, VERY durable and shockingly lightweight case from coroplast which has served me very well. I spent $20 on coroplast and $20 on high quality velcro to make a 27x27.5x10 case. I've flown with it more than 15 times and no one has ever measured it. They always ask what's in it ("camping equipment" is my standard response). Despite the extra size, I still need to remove the fork, cranks, brakes in addition to the normal seat, pedals and handlebars. The coroplast case is close to 8 pounds lighter than the others, so I can get my full bike, tools, the extra parts from the Deluxe Trucker, and still stay under 50 pounds (barely).

One of these days, I need to post a how-to for making the coroplast case. I did a bunch of scale models before arriving at what I think is a highly optimal method for buidling it.

When I'm home later I'll try to attach some photos of my packed bikes. Haven't unpacked them since I returned from Peru a week ago.


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## Bearbait (Jan 14, 2004)

would be interested in the case you made. I'm working on getting an Ogre modified with couplers and will need to build a case too.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

i had a case made for an s+s bike from a musical instrument case maker (iirc) ... i had it made slightly bigger than the s+s case so i could pack other stuff in there as well, unfortunately this immediately predated the time where airlines started breaking out the tape measures....

ah well!...i can take aphoto or two if it is helpful...its kind of metal edged/thin hardboard with a foam liner. not heavy but is robust...


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## mwv (Jan 24, 2012)

jmmorath said:


> If you happen to be doing anywhere outside of US, Canada, or Europe you have to have 26" wheels. No doubt about it. You will have hell finding 700c/29 rims/tires/tubes. But 26" is pretty much universal. This is why Surly offers both 700c and 26" LHTs.


I came across people on the Pan American highway on 700c bikes. They said they originally carried 8 tubes and two spare tires but ditched them when they realized they could be sourced much easier than they originally thought. If I were choosing my touring bike again I would go with the 700c/29er as long as I wasn't going to do anything crazy long or remote. It's not nearly the issue I originally thought it would be.


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## brokebike (Jan 31, 2013)

I'd vote for the Troll. Smaller tires would help in getting the travel size smaller, and you can run a better variety / selection of tires for different situations. I ride fatter tires than most people do (2.5"), because I do relatively moderate trail riding with no suspension... the fatties give me good cushioning. This past week, I traveled to a Bike conference and I took my Troll because - oddly enough - it's the lightest bike I own. Even lighter than my fully tour-equipped LHT which has front and rear racks and heavy Schwalbe tires. I joined in on a 20 mile group road ride with my 1x10 Troll and even though my bike was clearly the odd man out, it did just fine and I was easily able to hang with everyone else on the ride.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I find the versatility of the Troll pretty hard to beat.


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

I started out with similar thoughts. I ended up buying an Ogre frame I'm building up with a decent budget. Before you make any decisions you need to do more reading is my guess.
There are loads of folk who tour the world on 700c 28/29er wheels and you only have to google for them. Just like there are people who tour on 17", 20" and 24" wheels.
For some 26/29 opinion you might consider a well known off road tourer who has clocked up more miles than most here on both a Troll and an Ogre and whose currently seeing what his Krampus can do: While Out Riding | Dirt road adventures across the Americas
Hope you've read CGOAB.com as well. Good luck with the decision. Dont worry too much if you find you've made the wrong one. Treat it as an excuse to buy a new bike.

Whoops, just spotted the LHT. Enjoy!!!


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