# I dont understand the hate



## blade19941 (Dec 8, 2018)

Hey all. So this is my first post.
Just to give you some background : I started working for a well known bicycle brand early this year, before that I have never actually cycled but I have now gotten into it for obvious reasons.
1 year prior to me working for this company, I was involved in a serious motorcycle accident which saw me injuring the tendons in my knee which pretty much makes everyday life difficult and unbearable.
I left my previous employment as I was a driver manager which saw me driving upwards of 50 cars every day, the bulk of them being manual.
Because my left knee was injured, I couldnt use the clutch that well.

I was and honestly still am incredibly unfit, I am considered over weight by some. Since the accident I exercise my legs every day to strengthen my knee to minimise the pain but obviously thats not enough. Even walking long distances is a challenge which doesnt exactly help me in getting fit.

I started cycling and the pain is absolutely unbearable. I continued for a couple of months and eventually gave it up until I rode one of our e-bikes. It was such a pleasure, I could now enjoy cycling because honestly, I was only cycling to fit in and because down hills are so much fun. After giving one of our bikes a test ride, I decided thats the way to go.

So the opportunity has come for me to purchase one but now after doing more research, I see e-bikers get a ton of flak. I truly dont understand why. The last thing I want is to be enjoying a nice trail and then to be verbally attacked by someone due to the type of bicycle I'm riding.

There are even posts on this forum with titles like "I hate ebikes". 
Perhaps someone can elaborate for me because I just dont get the hate


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

E-bikes are legal on all state trails here and are just not a big deal. I've never actually seen anyone get flak for riding one, except for this website. They hate you because you're "cheating" by not pedaling your ass off, and because you are actually "riding a motorcycle", and because you will "destroy the trails", or you will at least turn all "land managers" against all bicyclists and destroy trail access for everyone. You will see that hate in action as this thread progresses, I predict. Despite their disdain for e-bikes, they can't restrain themselves from lurking the e-bike forums so that they can express their opinion of the concept.

I would encourage you to disregard the opinion of others and buy the kind of bicycle that allows _you_ to fulfill _your_ aspirations for _your_ enjoyment of the hobby.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> E-bikes are legal on all state trails here and are just not a big deal. I've never actually seen anyone get flak for riding one, except for this website. They hate you because you're "cheating" by not pedaling your ass off, and because you are actually "riding a motorcycle", and because you will "destroy the trails", or you will at least turn all "land managers" against all bicyclists and destroy trail access for everyone. You will see that hate in action as this thread progresses, I predict. Despite their disdain for e-bikes, they can't restrain themselves from lurking the e-bike forums so that they can express their opinion of the concept.
> 
> I would encourage you to disregard the opinion of others and buy the kind of bicycle that allows _you_ to fulfill _your_ aspirations for _your_ enjoyment of the hobby.


No one has bothered me on our local trails except for some passive-agressive idiots who put up no-e-bike sticker which the local land manager had taken down by his rangers after I spoke with him.

I met a couple of seventy-somethings walking on the trail who really liked my bike; the woman had an e-bike that she used on the road. Some mountain bikers will say "that's cheatin" followed by "I should get one." But most people don't seem to notice or even care. What surprises me most is that not one dog has reacted to the whine of the motor, which is usually masked by the sound of the tires. A coyote trotting along the trail got out of the way though; he noticed something was up.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

OP, much of the concern about their use is in the US. They are more widely accepted in other parts of the world, and that may be the case where you are in South Africa.

In many places here in the US, mountain bikes were prohibited on trails for a very long time. The fight to gain access to many of these trails was long and difficult with many hiking and horse riding groups opposing the use of bicycles on the trails. Part of the argument for their inclusion and a big part of the reason bicycles finally won the right to use trails in many areas was the fact that bicycles are non-motorized conveyances and were differentiated from the motorcycles that the hiking and horseman groups didn't want on the trails. Many bicyclists who battled to gain access to some riding areas are worried that cyclists using motorized means of travel in these areas could potentially jeapordize that access.

I serve on a public lands advisory board and regularly hear from members of the public who are still opposed to bike use on the trails. They get even more worked up when the discussion turns to motorized bikes.

Congrats on your new job and on finding a bike that works for you.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

sgltrak said:


> OP, much of the concern about their use is in the US. They are more widely accepted in other parts of the world, and that may be the case where you are in South Africa.
> 
> In many places here in the US, mountain bikes were prohibited on trails for a very long time. The fight to gain access to many of these trails was long and difficult with many hiking and horse riding groups opposing the use of bicycles on the trails. Part of the argument for their inclusion and a big part of the reason bicycles finally won the right to use trails in many areas was the fact that bicycles are non-motorized conveyances and were differentiated from the motorcycles that the hiking and horseman groups didn't want on the trails. Many bicyclists who battled to gain access to some riding areas are worried that cyclists using motorized means of travel in these areas could potentially jeapordize that access.
> 
> ...


If you really want to take a deep dive into understanding the people who sabotage bicycle access, look up Michael J. Vandeman. Then compare his purist crusade with the slippery slope arguments used by a few of the e-bike opponents on this forum. Most hikers are fine with mountain bikers because we have in general been careful and considerate and friendly for decades.

Just don't let the demi-god-like power of your e-bike go to your head and be extra-careful on the trail, especially around families with children and people with dogs. A bicycle traveling at speed is very energetic and can hurt someone - use your common sense and slow down and we can get along just fine with most hikers and equestrians.

Land managers are reasonable people - they can figure out which complaints originate from ideology. Over time e-bikes could be widely accepted as long as we all use the trails responsibly.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Understand too that the cutoff speed for ebikes is much higher in the US than it is for the European standard, which is what I imagine is followed in South Africa. We are not concerned with truly older and/or disabled ebike riders who need a little help, we're concerned that the ones that really just want a motor to zip them along faster will cause permanent damage to the sport we love.

And hikerdave, people like Vanderman salivate at the chance to say "see, now bicycles have motors so that's even more reason to ban them from trails".


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

People hate ebikes because they value non-motorized outdoor spaces and many electric bike enthusiasts insist that their machines are non-motorized and therefore belong one those trails.

For saying this I will be accused of being unreasonable, a hater, and a purist.

I think very few people hate ebikes but many of them despise the attitude suggesting that because the pedals engage the motor it's somehow a non-motorized machine.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

OP, many of the trail access concerns that are repeatedly expressed by the haters are regional or local. If you haven’t already done so, investigate your area and see if and where e-bikes are restricted. If the regulatory environment is anti-E-bike then you’ll just have to give it up if you can’t legally use the bike for the reasons you want ride it. Just skip it. Don’t ride the trails illegally. You’ll just have to wait for the environment to change. It will be slow, but it will happen in many, if not most, areas. If they’re already legal where you want to ride, go for it. Don’t let your passive-aggressive, self-righteous, true-believer fellow riders (if you have any where you are) dissuade you from enjoying mountain biking.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> People hate ebikes because they value non-motorized outdoor spaces and many electric bike enthusiasts insist that their machines are non-motorized and therefore belong one those trails.
> 
> For saying this I will be accused of being unreasonable, a hater, and a purist.
> 
> I think very few people hate ebikes but many of them despise the attitude suggesting that because the pedals engage the motor it's somehow a non-motorized machine.


People hate mountain bikes because they value non-mechanized spaces. Does that sound ridiculous to you?

There are plenty of trails where e-bikes could be used without hurting the experiences of other users or damaging nature, but what I often read here is the sentiment that electric bicycles belong only on motorcycle trails.

Time to go ride; it's a wonderful morning!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

hikerdave said:


> People hate mountain bikes because they value non-mechanized spaces. Does that sound ridiculous to you?


Actually it doesn't. I understand why some people value trails that are mtb-free and I myself am grateful there are primitive trails that allow only boots.

I think there are lots of places where electric bikes would be appropriate too. I don't think the sentiment here is that they only belong on motorcycle trails, rather that they don't belong on trails that are designated non-motorized. See the difference?


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Actually it doesn't. I understand why some people value trails that are mtb-free and I myself am grateful there are primitive trails that allow only boots.
> 
> I think there are lots of places where electric bikes would be appropriate too. I don't think the sentiment here is that they only belong on motorcycle trails, rather that they don't belong on trails that are designated non-motorized. See the difference?


Yet the only trails marked motorized are motorcycle trails.. Do you see the problem?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Yet the only trails marked motorized are motorcycle trails.. Do you see the problem?


 Do see a problem with motorized vehicles on non motorized trails? You should.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Class 1 e-bikes on any trail where a legacy bicycle is allowed? No problem.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

KenPsz said:


> Yet the only trails marked motorized are motorcycle trails.. Do you see the problem?


Around here that's not true. We have a bunch of trails (actually some of the best for both hiking and biking) that are open to motorcycles. You see them there occasionally, but they don't dominate. Lots of hikers, many bikers, the occasional Moto and once in a while an equestrian. I haven't seen an ebike yet but they would be welcome.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Yet the only trails marked motorized are motorcycle trails.. Do you see the problem?


Yes. Electric bike enthusiasts (and manufacturers) should advocate for their own niche on the trails, and I think many of them that currently allow mountain bikes would also be appropriate for ebikes. Some may not.

Also there are regional differences. Around here "motorcycle trails" (I call them atv/forest road trails) are fine for mountain biking and I would suspect ebike riding too. I can go for a 3 hour ride on them and often never see another soul.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cuyuna said:


> Class 1 e-bikes on any trail where a legacy bicycle is allowed? No problem.


Your opinion is valid, I hope it doesn't prevail but if it does kindly remove the "No Motorized Vehicles" signs that are posted at the trailheads.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Actually it doesn't. I understand why some people value trails that are mtb-free and I myself am grateful there are primitive trails that allow only boots.
> 
> I think there are lots of places where electric bikes would be appropriate too. I don't think the sentiment here is that they only belong on motorcycle trails, rather that they don't belong on trails that are designated non-motorized. See the difference?


My sentiments exactly. There are many trails where I live where ebikes can ride legally and other trails where they can't. Just like there are places where I can and can't ride my mtb.

Ebike proponents seem to think that buying an expensive new motorized toy buys access to non-motorized trails. I don't ride my mtb in wilderness areas or on the PCT, even though I feel it would be appropriate in some cases. I do advocate allowing land managers the discretion to designate certain corridors in wilderness areas appropriate for mtb travel. I don't see that happening any time soon.

Nor do I see ebikes being legal on federally managed non-motorized trails any time soon.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Your opinion is valid, I hope it doesn't prevail but if it does kindly remove the "No Motorized Vehicles" signs that are posted at the trailheads.


No need around here. A class 1 e-bike is classified as a bicycle in this state.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

blade19941 said:


> The last thing I want is to be enjoying a nice trail and then to be verbally attacked by someone due to the type of bicycle I'm riding.


Ride where you are legal. Ride courteously and you won't have a problem. I don't like e-bikes for a lot of reasons, but I am not going to bug someone riding one legally. Poach and I'll be on your case if I come across you on the trail.

It's pretty simple.


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## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

blade19941 said:


> Hey all... I see e-bikers get a ton of flak. I truly dont understand why. The last thing I want is to be enjoying a nice trail and then to be verbally attacked by someone due to the type of bicycle I'm riding.
> 
> There are even posts on this forum with titles like "I hate ebikes".
> Perhaps someone can elaborate for me because I just dont get the hate


Don't judge public opinion based on what you read on this forum. MTBR folks tend to be passionate one way or another about bike related issues, but they represent only a tiny fraction of bikers. My experience in the "real world" is that almost everyone you encounter while riding your ebike will not only be understanding but will also be welcoming and often curious and stoked about them. Of course, this applies only if you're riding one on ebike-legal roads or trails! Don't poach trails where there're not allowed and you'll be fine. Best wishes, and have fun!


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-alf-the-82-year-old-cancer-survivor-who-still-rides.html

If this man rides a bike, so can nearly anyone.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

levity said:


> Don't judge public opinion based on what you read on this forum. MTBR folks tend to be passionate one way or another about bike related issues, but they represent only a tiny fraction of bikers. My experience in the "real world" is that almost everyone you encounter while riding your ebike will not only be understanding but will also be welcoming and often curious and stoked about them. Of course, this applies only if you're riding one on ebike-legal roads or trails! Don't poach trails where there're not allowed and you'll be fine. Best wishes, and have fun!


I agree with this completely.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> No need around here. A class 1 e-bike is classified as a bicycle in this state.


A sincere, polite request: Please provide evidence that state law supersedes federal law on federal land in Minnesota.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cuyuna said:


> No need around here. A class 1 e-bike is classified as a bicycle in this state.


And therefore the hate. Not from me, though I do find that somewhat depressing and disappointing. OP asked and there is, for many (most?) one of the most definitive features of a bicycle is that it's 100% human powered, and defining electric bikes as being non-motorized seems like a back door way to sneak motors into previously unaccessible areas. Also it seems most ebike proponents here have zero empathy for those who value non-motorized spaces so if anything they're the "hateful" ones. IMHO.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

veloborealis said:


> A sincere, polite request: Please provide evidence that state law supersedes federal law on federal land in Minnesota.


No idea. There is probably mountain biking on Federal land here in Minnesota, probably "Up North" in the Arrowhead region and around Superior National Forest, but I have no experience on Federal land in this state other than extensively snowmobiling it over the last three decades. No clue about bicycling. I don't own an e-bike so I've never really looked for signs prohibiting them up there and have no idea if they exist.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> And therefore the hate. Not from me, though I do find that somewhat depressing and disappointing. OP asked and there is, for many (most?) one of the most definitive features of a bicycle is that it's 100% human powered, and defining electric bikes as being non-motorized seems like a back door way to sneak motors into previously unaccessible areas. Also it seems most ebike proponents here have zero empathy for those who value non-motorized spaces so if anything they're the "hateful" ones. IMHO.


I'm aware that that's a common attitude of the True Faithful here on MTBR but I don't share it. I can't envision how someone else riding a class 1 e-bike would impair my enjoyment of the outdoors.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> No idea. There is probably mountain biking on Federal land here in Minnesota, probably "Up North" in the Arrowhead region and around Superior National Forest, but I have no experience on Federal land in this state other than extensively snowmobiling it over the last three decades. No clue about bicycling. I don't own an e-bike so I've never really looked for signs prohibiting them up there and have no idea if they exist.


Thanks for the honest answer. Federal regs classify ebikes as motorized vehicles as it applies to the use of non-moto trails on federal land. The policy applies nationwide on federal lands regardless of any state by state rulings to the contrary. States and municipalities can make their own rules on their land. That's fine with me. Just follow the rules and ride where it's legal. No hate in that, eh?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cuyuna said:


> I'm aware that that's a common attitude of the True Faithful here on MTBR but I don't share it. I can't envision how someone else riding a class 1 e-bike would impair my enjoyment of the outdoors.


I understand that even if I don't agree with it. Lots of people honestly can't understand how traveling through the woods in their atv or legacy (petrol) motorcycle could possibly bother anyone either*, but there are rules and ime people mostly respect them. Respect is critical for successful relationships.

* not equating ebikes to atv's or petrol motorcycles


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

Since there was a question about MN.

https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/state_forests/biking_list.html
https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/state_trails/other_trail_uses.html

The 2nd link provides the following:
Electric-Assist/Pedal-Assist Bicycles

Electric-assist or pedal-assist bicycles are allowed on state trails, or wherever normal bicycles are allowed, if they meet the following definition in Minnesota Statutes 169.011, Subdivision 27. 
2 or 3 wheels
A saddle and fully operable pedals for human propulsion
An electric motor that is:
1,000 watts or less,
incapable of propelling faster than 20 miles per hour,
incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power alone is used to propel the vehicle at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour, and 
disengages or ceases to function when the vehicles brakes are applied.
A motorized bicycle that does not meet the definition of an electric-assist bicycle is not allowed on state trails where motorized vehicles are prohibited.
When riding on State Trails, remember to yield to pedestrians and slower trail users, and give an audible signal if passing.

So, limitations on the overall speed, power, and that the motor cannot engage when exceeding or at top speed.

My experience with ebikes is limited. I've seen them, but not ridden. I've seen some inappropriate behavior on what I would think is not a legal ebike on the Luce Line trail. The person was going too fast IMO on a multi use trail that had families, pets, other cyclists, runners, fisher people carrying buckets and poles with hooks... you get the idea. The Luce Line does allow electric assist bicycles, but that was an electric dirt moto/moped if ever I saw one. There is pictorial signage at nearby trail entrances, but it's obviously a pic of a snowmobile. There was even a post on Craigslist with a shot of the "bike" on a side trail that in the summer is a no bike zone, walking only and even has a boot scrapper so as to limit tracking in or out. Granted, this is a behavioral issue and not an ebike one. That said, this type of behavior is what is concerning. In certain places, that one person could limit or outright prohibit others from enjoying areas if proof of such actions were brought to a sympathetic governing body.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Do see a problem with motorized vehicles on non motorized trails? You should.


An e-bike is not a vehicle, like a Jeep or a truck is. It's not in the same class as an ATV either. Maybe if one was a tricycle or quadricycle and had a huge amount of power, OK maybe it could be in the same universe as an ATV.

I feel bad for the people riding in areas that are so damn picky and anal-retentive that bicycles are banned from many trails. That sucks. But it's wrong to focus 100% on whether an e-bike has a motor or not, the focus should be on their actual impact, both environmental and psychological. You know...something practical. Instead of some never-ending theoretical exercise.

I don't know about your area, but in my county there are either no signs against bikes at all, or there are signs against all bikes, and those trails are for hikers and horse riders only. In other words normal bikes and e-bikes are allowed on every trail together that doesn't specifically have a no bike sign. Lately there have been signs in certain trailheads saying no dirt bikes. The trailhead neighborhood is not stupid. Most people have probably heard of e-bicycles, and they all have heard, literally, about dirt bikes. They didn't put the sign there to discourage bike riding, e-bike or not. They don't care who rides what bike behind their back yard, as long as there is not too much noise or obnoxiousness. With dirt bikes, there IS noise and obnoxiousness. And that is exactly why the no dirt bikes signs went up, and not the no bicycles at all signs. Motorized GAS bikes and vehicles are noisy, polluting, and tear up dirt roads and trails. If anyone has any evidence that the average e-bike with 250-500W does any of those things even remotely, please be my guest and present the evidence.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

richj8990 said:


> An e-bike is not a vehicle, like a Jeep or a truck is. It's not in the same class as an ATV either. Maybe if one was a tricycle or quadricycle and had a huge amount of power, OK maybe it could be in the same universe as an ATV.
> 
> I feel bad for the people riding in areas that are so damn picky and anal-retentive that bicycles are banned from many trails. That sucks. But it's wrong to focus 100% on whether an e-bike has a motor or not, the focus should be on their actual impact, both environmental and psychological. You know...something practical. Instead of some never-ending theoretical exercise.
> 
> I don't know about your area, but in my county there are either no signs against bikes at all, or there are signs against all bikes, and those trails are for hikers and horse riders only. In other words normal bikes and e-bikes are allowed on every trail together that doesn't specifically have a no bike sign. Lately there have been signs in certain trailheads saying no dirt bikes. The trailhead neighborhood is not stupid. Most people have probably heard of e-bicycles, and they all have heard, literally, about dirt bikes. They didn't put the sign there to discourage bike riding, e-bike or not. They don't care who rides what bike behind their back yard, as long as there is not too much noise or obnoxiousness. With dirt bikes, there IS noise and obnoxiousness. And that is exactly why the no dirt bikes signs went up, and not the no bicycles at all signs. Motorized GAS bikes and vehicles are noisy, polluting, and tear up dirt roads and trails. If anyone has any evidence that the average e-bike with 250-500W does any of those things even remotely, please be my guest and present the evidence.


You make an interesting point about the anti types attitude. You know what it reminds me of horse back riders and hikers. I remember the articles and meetings with all of the lies of how evil mountain bikes were because they were machines and how mountain bikes tore up the trails worse than horse. The lies that mountain bikes, hikers and horse could never co-exist since bikers were jerks that did not respect the natural way of things.

Guess what is old is new if you are around long enough.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Your opinion is valid, I hope it doesn't prevail but if it does kindly remove the "No Motorized Vehicles" signs that are posted at the trailheads.


Again, a bike is not a vehicle they are describing in the sign. No motorized vehicles means no dirt bikes, ATV's, Jeeps, or trucks. Those four images are on many signs here. Still waiting for a sign that has an e-bike with a diagonal line through it.

If you ever ride an e-bike up a really steep hill, and have to stop and get off the bike, you will quickly realize that they are a bike and not a motorcycle. Last month I was going down a really steep section that I previously had to walk the e-bike up, and two dirtbikes were going up the same section just fine, about 8-12 mph up. They had no problem doing it. They also tore up the trail pretty good, something my bike did not do. Very big difference.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

richj8990 said:


> Again, a bike is not a vehicle they are describing in the sign. No motorized vehicles means no dirt bikes, ATV's, Jeeps, or trucks. Those four images are on many signs here. Still waiting for a sign that has an e-bike with a diagonal line through it.
> 
> If you ever ride an e-bike up a really steep hill, and have to stop and get off the bike, you will quickly realize that they are a bike and not a motorcycle. Last month I was going down a really steep section that I previously had to walk the e-bike up, and two dirtbikes were going up the same section just fine, about 8-12 mph up. They had no problem doing it. They also tore up the trail pretty good, something my bike did not do. Very big difference.


So if the sign says, "No Ebikes, No Pedal Assist," you're good with that and won't poach that trail? Those are the signs going up in my area on federally designated non-motorized trails. USFS and BLM define Class 1 ebikes as motorized vehicles and restrict them from non-moto trails on that basis.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

One of the concerns for land managers in our area is the inability to discern between class 1 e-bikes and class 2 or class 3 e-bikes. My understanding is that our state has determined that class 1 e-bikes are to be considered bicycles and allowed where any other non e-bike is allowed unless specifically prohibited, while class 2 and class 3 e-bikes are considered motor vehicles and prohibited where motor vehicles are prohibited. Since land managers are not easily able to discern which class a bike falls into, many prefer to ban them all.



veloborealis said:


> So if the sign says, "No Ebikes, No Pedal Assist," you're good with that and won't poach that trail? Those are the signs going up in my area on federally designated non-motorized trails. USFS and BLM define Class 1 ebikes as motorized vehicles and restrict them from non-moto trails on that basis.


I have seen a few signs with an e-bike with red slash across it, but most of what I've seen are signs like veloborealis describes:


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

I had to share this quote from the linked article since it fits the topic of this thread:

On a very basic level, some riders feel personally threatened by the mere existence of a bicycle equipped with any sort of motor. Some mountain bikers seem to have a potent combination of delicate egos and well-trained bodies. While struggling up a difficult climb, seeing a less-fit person breeze by using anything other than oxygen, muscle and determination will leave many riders seeing red and dismissing the offending rider as well as whatever new technology is carrying him or her up the hill.

https://dirtragmag.com/elephant-in-the-room-the-great-e-bike-controversy/


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> Yet the only trails marked motorized are motorcycle trails.. Do you see the problem?


No.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

veloborealis said:


> So if the sign says, "No Ebikes, No Pedal Assist," you're good with that and won't poach that trail? Those are the signs going up in my area on federally designated non-motorized trails. USFS and BLM define Class 1 ebikes as motorized vehicles and restrict them from non-moto trails on that basis.


If you didn't see it in another thread, the guy you responded to admitted that he rides a mountain bike with a 1000watt conversion kit. He then came up with a bunch of excuses about how that's ok as he doesn't use all that power, doesn't tear up trails, cars can go a lot faster than the speed limit but they are still allowed on the streets, etc. He said he was going to have the shop that did the conversion for him reprogram it for lower wattage. I wonder if he has done that or if he continues to ride it where it isn't allowed.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

chazpat said:


> If you didn't see it in another thread, the guy you responded to admitted that he rides a mountain bike with a 1000watt conversion kit. He then came up with a bunch of excuses about how that's ok as he doesn't use all that power, doesn't tear up trails, cars can go a lot faster than the speed limit but they are still allowed on the streets, etc. He said he was going to have the shop that did the conversion for him reprogram it for lower wattage. I wonder if he has done that or if he continues to ride it where it isn't allowed.


Stand-up guy or e-hole? It's one or the other.


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## blade19941 (Dec 8, 2018)

Hi all

So I decided to make the plunge and purchased myself a nice Silverback S-Electro Trail (Black and Red).

I did some research on the trails in Cape Town and they all accept ebikes so thats great.

Thanks for all the advice


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## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

IOG someone here still remembers Michael J. Vandeman. I am one of the most polite trail users around, I yield to down hillers, hikes and equestrians. I get off my bike and get totally off the trail. When I first got my e-bike i only rode very remote trails where I knew I would be alone. I was not waiting to cause problems, have read e-bike comments on this site with the e-bike made me stay off my local popular trails. 

Now 2 years into it I have learned that most of the hate is online. 2 years and hundreds of trail miles the only negative encounter was from a Western Spirits guide in Sedona that threaten to call the forest service on me. I said have at it...called his bluff and he moved on.

I mostly keep my options to myself but I have always been against private companies making money off public lands. It is not the lands managers against E-bikes it is other MTBers.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

blade19941 said:


> Hi all
> 
> So I decided to make the plunge and purchased myself a nice Silverback S-Electro Trail (Black and Red).
> 
> ...


Wait a minute fella. There's a cover charge for the, um, entertainment.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> If you ever ride an e-bike up a really steep hill, and have to stop and get off the bike, you will quickly realize that they are a bike and not a motorcycle.


Check out you tube, there are guys climbing 75% grades on standard class 1 ebikes. Try that on a bicycle.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

blade19941 said:


> Hi all
> 
> So I decided to make the plunge and purchased myself a nice Silverback S-Electro Trail (Black and Red).
> 
> ...


Congratulations on your purchase OP! Enjoy your new bike. Glad to hear you will have plenty of places to ride it in your area.

Perhaps eventually the riding will be less painful and you may be able to enjoy a non-assist bike. A good friend of mine nearly lost his leg in a motorcycle accident in July 2017. He had a bunch of screws and plates installed and several skin and muscle grafts. He couldn't walk for months. Now he rides a (non-assist) mountain a couple of hundred km per month, and climbs several hundred meters on each of those rides. He rides with pain, but is becoming stronger every day and says the pain is improving.


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## blade19941 (Dec 8, 2018)

veloborealis said:


> Wait a minute fella. There's a cover charge for the, um, entertainment.


But I see the show is just beginning.
Apologies to those if I have started up a conversation that clearly puts a lot on edge.
That was not my intention. I basically just wanted opinions on what I could expect on the trail being some what "disabled" and on an ebike. And I'll most probably get some comments as South Africans tend to be quite vocal about their views, oh well, I some what look forward to that day.

I can imagine it now, me getting some crappy comment and then getting off my bike and limping closer to that person to find out what they said.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

blade19941 said:


> But I see the show is just beginning.
> Apologies to those if I have started up a conversation that clearly puts a lot on edge.
> That was not my intention. I basically just wanted opinions on what I could expect on the trail being some what "disabled" and on an ebike. And I'll most probably get some comments as South Africans tend to be quite vocal about their views, oh well, I some what look forward to that day.
> 
> I can imagine it now, me getting some crappy comment and then getting off my bike and limping closer to that person to find out what they said.


I would bet you will not find the same level of hate on the trail that you do online. The ability to be an anonymous and a hateful douchebag is easy on the internet. Just be a good example on the trails and you will pull more people into the e-bike interest. Added bonus the online haters will get more and more upset which is kind of fun to see.


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## blade19941 (Dec 8, 2018)

sgltrak said:


> Congratulations on your purchase OP! Enjoy your new bike. Glad to hear you will have plenty of places to ride it in your area.
> 
> Perhaps eventually the riding will be less painful and you may be able to enjoy a non-assist bike. A good friend of mine nearly lost his leg in a motorcycle accident in July 2017. He had a bunch of screws and plates installed and several skin and muscle grafts. He couldn't walk for months. Now he rides a (non-assist) mountain a couple of hundred km per month, and climbs several hundred meters on each of those rides. He rides with pain, but is becoming stronger every day and says the pain is improving.


Thanks man. Thats the plan, build up some more muscle strength and eventuslly move over to a non-assist mtb.
Im sorry to hear about your friend, its great that he recovered well though, I on the other hand didnt do to well but my weight didnt exactly help.
At least now I can get on the trails.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

I have to wonder what really is the purpose of this forum since the dislike/hatred shown seems to be in direct violation of the moderators statement of:

"This section is for discussion of eBikes and eBike specific accessories, discussions about legality and such will be moved out of this section or deleted at the Moderators' discretion."

Maybe there needs to be a "anti e-bike" forum, now that would be fun. That way this forum could be for the discussion of eBikes and eBike specific accessories.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

chazpat said:


> If you didn't see it in another thread, the guy you responded to admitted that he rides a mountain bike with a 1000watt conversion kit. He then came up with a bunch of excuses about how that's ok as he doesn't use all that power, doesn't tear up trails, cars can go a lot faster than the speed limit but they are still allowed on the streets, etc. He said he was going to have the shop that did the conversion for him reprogram it for lower wattage. I wonder if he has done that or if he continues to ride it where it isn't allowed.


 I had a fatbike with 1000w, but it was geared to never exceed 20mph on flat ground with motor alone. I used a 3_speed IGH with custom cogs and a small chainwheel, it would climb anything, but only at 6mph. I mostly ghost pedeled in first or second gear at around 8-12 mph. 5" tires with low air pressure don't seem to ever slip and don't seem to leave a mark on the trail either.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

dstepper said:


> IOG someone here still remembers Michael J. Vandeman. I am one of the most polite trail users around, I yield to down hillers, hikes and equestrians. I get off my bike and get totally off the trail. When I first got my e-bike i only rode very remote trails where I knew I would be alone. I was not waiting to cause problems, have read e-bike comments on this site with the e-bike made me stay off my local popular trails.
> 
> Now 2 years into it I have learned that most of the hate is online. 2 years and hundreds of trail miles the only negative encounter was from a Western Spirits guide in Sedona that threaten to call the forest service on me. I said have at it...called his bluff and he moved on.
> 
> I mostly keep my options to myself but I have always been against private companies making money off public lands. It is not the lands managers against E-bikes it is other MTBers.


I would have called YOUR bluff.

No, I don't expect law enforcement to rush out and write you a ticket, but I do want land managers to know what's going on out on the trails. Ebikes aren't a top priority, but I have spoken to land managers and they do care. The best evidence of that is the federal regulation defining all classes of ebike, even pedal assist, as motorized vehicles.

You claim, at least, to be courteous and ride responsibly. Thanks for that. That's probably why most other trail users don't notice the ebike.

And BTW, if you thought about it for two seconds you would realize public lands generate money for all kinds of private businesses, pretty much the entire outdoor tourism industry. I notice the link to a real estate business at the bottom of your post I bought my house in part due to its proximity to trails on the PNF. So did many of the other trail users I meet out there.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

KenPsz said:


> I have to wonder what really is the purpose of this forum since the dislike/hatred shown seems to be in direct violation of the moderators statement of:
> 
> "This section is for discussion of eBikes and eBike specific accessories, discussions about legality and such will be moved out of this section or deleted at the Moderators' discretion."
> 
> Maybe there needs to be a "anti e-bike" forum, now that would be fun. That way this forum could be for the discussion of eBikes and eBike specific accessories.


They can't help themselves. They're very passionate about mountain biking.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> I have to wonder what really is the purpose of this forum since the dislike/hatred shown seems to be in direct violation of the moderators statement of:
> 
> "This section is for discussion of eBikes and eBike specific accessories, discussions about legality and such will be moved out of this section or deleted at the Moderators' discretion."
> 
> Maybe there needs to be a "anti e-bike" forum, now that would be fun. That way this forum could be for the discussion of eBikes and eBike specific accessories.


Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a lot of "hate" for ebikes in this particular thread. The issue seems to be "ride them where they are legal" and "stay off trails where they are not legal." Obey the law. Simple. It's what we teach our children.

Are you guys really advocating for the right to disobey laws and regulations you don't agree with? Is that what this is all about? Spend a second carrying that premise to its logical conclusion.

Back when I taught civics, I taught my students this, as well: If you don't like the law, work to change it.

I'm glad you guys have legal places to ride. I'm also glad there are some places where non-motorized and non-mechanized rules apply. In other words, I like the current rules and follow them. How is that hateful?


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

veloborealis said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a lot of "hate" for ebikes in this particular thread. The issue seems to be "ride them where they are legal" and "stay off trails where they are not legal." Obey the law. Simple. It's what we teach our children.
> 
> Are you guys really advocating for the right to disobey laws and regulations you don't agree with? Is that what this is all about? Spend a second carrying that premise to its logical conclusion.
> 
> ...


Key phrase you have above is "this particular thread".

When someone pro e-bike tries to have a discussion all the response go along the lies of "you're just lazy get fit", "it has a motor stay off the trails", "ebikes are going to get trails closed", "ebikes tear up the trails", "ebikes climb to fast", "if you ride a e-bike you are not a true mountain biker" on and on.

Most of those are lies or half truths and show a very arrogant and hateful attitude towards e-bikes and those support the idea.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

It appears that in this short thread, we have seen evidence of three ebikers who ride illegally, two with over wattage bikes and one in a Federal forest. They all are quick to defend their actions as ok. Do the other ebikes here think that's ok? Ken, is it ok for ebikers to ride illegally? 

Personally, I have gotten onto mountain bikers riding illegally the few times I have witnessed it. Of course, that is one of the issues with ebikes, as has been said before, allowing any class ebike is allowing all ebikes (and beyond as 1000W is over the definition of an ebike) as there is no way to regulate them on a trail. Any ebiker want to come up with a solution for this? Any ebiker willing to actually address the real concerns? Or do they want to just cry "haters!"


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

The first post that says this stuff is the first reply to the OP. it's an e-bike advocate putting the words in other people's mouth.

You all are as luck of the problem as the people who actually say those things because you've prevented this thread from being a worthwhile discussion.

So you say you want discussion but never you or cuyana will let it happen.


KenPsz said:


> Key phrase you have above is "this particular thread".
> 
> When someone pro e-bike tries to have a discussion all the response go along the lies of "you're just lazy get fit", "it has a motor stay off the trails", "ebikes are going to get trails closed", "ebikes tear up the trails", "ebikes climb to fast", "if you ride a e-bike you are not a true mountain biker" on and on.
> 
> Most of those are lies or half truths and show a very arrogant and hateful attitude towards e-bikes and those support the idea.


Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

I knew this kind of rider existed and last week I had to chance to ride with him and see for myself what way better than me fitness looks like.
This rider was so fit that combining my meager watts with my Bosch’s turbo watts, I could not begin to keep him in site, even on long, steep technical climbs.
Can you imagine the risk a rider like this can be to other riders with his closing speed or the mental anxiety he can cause to another rider when he makes them look like their sitting still on a climb?
Riders like this should be banned to moto only trails.
He should be banned from riding his 23 pound Epic where ever mere mortals are riding.
He should be punished by only allowing him to ride a $80 K-Mart bike.
He would probably never be interested in riding an assisted bike.
But if he did I am sure all hell would break lose if he did


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

highroad 2 said:


> I knew this kind of rider existed and last week I had to chance to ride with him and see for myself what way better than me fitness looks like.
> This rider was so fit that combining my meager watts with my Bosch's turbo watts, I could not begin to keep him in site, even on long, steep technical climbs.
> Can you imagine the risk a rider like this can be to other riders with his closing speed or the mental anxiety he can cause to another rider when he makes them look like their sitting still on a climb?
> Riders like this should be banned to moto only trails.
> ...


True story or are you just trolling?

To your point, if your friend was using trail etiquette and riding in a legal area more power to him. Rules can't cover every case.

How about you? Was your Bosch legal on that trail?


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## mousehunter (Sep 22, 2015)

```

```
I think primary reason for hate is access limitation coupled with a side of intemidation. Ebikes can easily be abused and shred trails. As they trails are destroyed, access will be limited. Even if they are not abused, they open up the trails to an infinite number of new users. Traffic destroys the enjoyability of trails, but also increases wear... which will result in lost trails.

The side of intemidations is simply nobody likes being blown away. Not hikers, not biker.

Restricting power can help with the intemidation, and can help with the trail abuse. It does little to help with the increased traffic and associated wear. Forbid if tptb decide to reinforce our beloved single track and turn them into gravel side walks for the masses.
--
I am a new ebike owner. While I think my bike will get used, it has way too much power to ever share a trail well with a peddle bike. Moreover, the controller lacks the ability to control the power in a way to play well with others even if I wanted to. Honestly, I fear I chose poorly-but can see the hate the bike would generate if a purest even test road it. It is hard to keep under 15mph.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

I have no time to waste trolling.
Totally true story, legal and excellent trail etiquette from both us all the time.

We were riding moto trails, that in our area tend to be less groomed and more challenging.
I was trying to ad some humor to the constant barrage of unfounded and uninformed negativity towards Class 1 electric assist Mtn bikes.
The guy I was riding with is new to our area and says he has raced for years in whatever the class is just below the pro level.

So much boloney about Class 1 ebikes doing trail damage because they weigh too much and put to many Watts to the ground is bogus.
Are you going to outlaw the pro rider when he visits your trails, because he will put down even more Watts than a advanced rider on a Class 1.

Every time I ride I see huge skid marks going into downhill corners, from 30 pound non assisted bikes.
Why, beginner riders that have yet learned how to brake properly and conserve their momentum.

If you see something that is not legal, could be better trail manners/etiquette or the rider to needs to learn some riding skills, get off your high horse, be nice, kind and educate.
Treat people the way you would like your kid, wife of mother to be treated.






Sometimes


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

highroad 2 said:


> I have no time to waste trolling.
> Totally true story, legal and excellent trail etiquette from both us all the time.
> 
> We were riding moto trails, that in our area tend to be less groomed and more challenging.
> ...


Apparently you also don't have time to read the thread, no one here has said class 1 ebikes do trail damage.


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## mousehunter (Sep 22, 2015)

I said class I bikes do trail damage. Every bike on a trail does some damage. Class I bikes open the trail up to more riders (like me with my blown out knee, or like me with m out of shape fat gut, or me who can simply ride more and longer trails if I had a little assistance). The more riders, the more incremental damage. AND even if the damage is not physical, the more traffic makes the trail less enjoyable. 

At the end of the day, trails like almost everything else in life are a limited resource. It is simple human nature to want to preserve them for yourself rather than let them be squandered by the unwashed masses who are incapable of truely appreciating them. Untill ebikes are viewed as a resource to gain new trail rather than a parisite consuming them-of course there will be hate.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

I'm a bit of a purist. No engines for me. But i see the glory of e bikes. 
The good news is that they can get people out into the forest who otherwise wouldnt be able to. Also they allow good descent focused riders more many more runs than what is possible without pedal assist. 

The bad news is there is more trail wear plus the non fit, inexperienced can roost at speeds past his/her skill level and injure themselves and others.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Other threads around here express that getting new people into the hobby is a worthwhile goal....others complain about increased trail use. Hard to keep up around here. Personally, on our trail system, adding users, increasing popularity, has led to increased funding and more trails over the last 6 years.

As to e-bikes allowing people to ride beyond their skill level....I guess that I don't I see that as _my_ problem. The only MTB skill/safety ratio that I worry about is mine (and my granddaughter's, I guess).


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mousehunter said:


> I said class I bikes do trail damage. Every bike on a trail does some damage. Class I bikes open the trail up to more riders (like me with my blown out knee, or like me with m out of shape fat gut, or me who can simply ride more and longer trails if I had a little assistance). The more riders, the more incremental damage. AND even if the damage is not physical, the more traffic makes the trail less enjoyable.
> 
> At the end of the day, trails like almost everything else in life are a limited resource. It is simple human nature to want to preserve them for yourself rather than let them be squandered by the unwashed masses who are incapable of truely appreciating them. Untill ebikes are viewed as a resource to gain new trail rather than a parisite consuming them-of course there will be hate.


Ahh. Can you share what ebike you bought? Is it class 1?


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> Other threads around here express that getting new people into the hobby is a worthwhile goal....others complain about increased trail use. Hard to keep up around here. Personally, on our trail system, adding users, increasing popularity, has led to increased funding and more trails over the last 6 years.
> 
> As to e-bikes allowing people to ride beyond their skill level....I guess that I don't I see that as _my_ problem. The only MTB skill/safety ratio that I worry about is mine (and my granddaughter's, I guess).


Once I was carrying my toddler daughter in a backpack on a steeo narrow trail when a out-of-control mountain biker appeared around a blind corner. He had no intention or ability to stop and was headed right for me. I had to leap off the trail onto a steep hillside; my daughter could have been killed. (Mountain bikes are very dangerous and shouldn't be legal on trails.)

I saw a mountain biker turning on tight switchbacks by skidding his back wheel on every switchback. (Mountain bikers damage the trails.)

Mountain bikers drive their giant SUV's long distances just to ride their bikes at places like Moab. (Mountain bikers don't care about the environmenr).

I saw on the news that a mountain biker died. (Mountain bikes are a danger to themselves.)

This is a nature preserve. Why does this dead snake have tire tracks on it? (Mountain bikers are callous brutes who don't appreciate nature.)

Wilderness is a limited resorce so we should preserve all that we can. There are plenty of places where mountain bikers can ride. (Hopefully far away from me. )

Mountain bikers aren't being excluded from wilderness because they can walk. (And if they weren't all thrill-seeking adrenaline junkies they would.)

Hikers and horseback riders are offended by mountain bikers, so to avoid conflicts we need user separation. (More trails should be closed to mountain bikes.)

Mountain bikes cost thousands of dollars but I can buy a perfectly good bike at Target for a hundred and fifty dollars. (Mountain bikers are conspicuous-spending status seekers flaunting their wealth,)

We don't hate mountain bikers. (Just their bikes.)


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

hikerdave said:


> Once I was carrying my toddler daughter in a backpack on a steeo narrow trail when a out-of-control mountain biker appeared around a blind corner. He had no intention or ability to stop and was headed right for me. I had to leap off the trail onto a steep hillside; my daughter could have been killed. (Mountain bikes are very dangerous and shouldn't be legal on trails.)
> 
> I saw a mountain biker turning on tight switchbacks by skidding his back wheel on every switchback. (Mountain bikers damage the trails.)
> 
> ...


If that post was offensive to you, ask yourself why you are here on the e-bikes forum; if you are here to Vandemanize the e-bike subforum, please spend your time on any one of the countless other subforums provided by mtbr.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

hikerdave said:


> If that post was offensive to you, ask yourself why you are here on the e-bikes forum; if you are here to Vandemanize the e-bike subforum, please spend your time on any one of the countless other subforums provided by mtbr.


It sounds a bit contrived but not offensive.


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

HikerDave, Sorry you had such bad experiences with people not adhering to common sense and trail etiquette in areas where they are poaching. 

Still, it's not the bike... it's the person making poor decisions who is riding it.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

U


hikerdave said:


> Once I was carrying my toddler daughter in a backpack on a steeo narrow trail when a out-of-control mountain biker appeared around a blind corner. He had no intention or ability to stop and was headed right for me. I had to leap off the trail onto a steep hillside; my daughter could have been killed. (Mountain bikes are very dangerous and shouldn't be legal on trails.)
> 
> I saw a mountain biker turning on tight switchbacks by skidding his back wheel on every switchback. (Mountain bikers damage the trails.)
> 
> ...


We don't allow hikers on the mountain biking trails around here (or horses). They hike them anyway, often with their dogs (poaching). I don't really mind, as long as they stay out of the way and don't put mountain bikers at risk (and don't complain about an accidental near-miss on a blind corner every now and then). Staying out my way is their responsibility.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

After being on this site I started to do Google searches for ebike hatred and oh boy the articles and stuff you can find!

Lots of the same claims are used in road biking wold.

Although I have seen strava mentioned alot and to be honest I had to look that one up. Funny that non-ebike folks are upset the ebikes are screwing their leader boards on what is the equivalent of a video game stats board.

This is a good one that is honest and admits it is mostly about ego.

https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2018/03/17/i-hate-your-e-bike/


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> This is a good one that is honest and admits it is mostly about ego.
> 
> https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2018/03/17/i-hate-your-e-bike/


It's actually about being less than honest about using a motor.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> After being on this site I started to do Google searches for ebike hatred and oh boy the articles and stuff you can find!
> 
> Lots of the same claims are used in road biking wold.
> 
> ...


Check the "about" page for that website. Here is some of it:
_
This blog consists entirely of my opinions regarding cycling, cyclists, training, racing, and related matters, including vulgarity as it relates to cycling, and my full carbon wheels, which are made of 100% carbon and are full carbon. My legal disclaimer? Nothing on these pages including references to people, races, or events is anything other than fiction, satire, and parody. Although the urge is often irresistible to try and figure out "who" this is about, in reality it's not about anyone, least of all you. Just take a deep breath when you think you're the victim of some dogawful calumny and repeat, "Fiction, satire, parody. Fiction, satire, parody." It's not real. And please don't come up to me on some ****ing ride and go, "Hey, Wankmeister!" He's not real, either.

This is another way of saying that everything on this blog is true, except for the parts I make up, which is all of it. There's the disclaimer again._


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## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2018/03/17/i-hate-your-e-bike/


Haha, hilarious article. A nice way to poke fun at the haughty, supercilious attitudes some folks seem to have.


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## mousehunter (Sep 22, 2015)

BBSHD. While it can built as a class I or II, it is usually programmed to be a moped. While not entirely legal, I like the concept, just not the initial execution. The concept is plenty of power to get this overweight rider to the trail, the slow it down to a much lower power to leasurely enjoy them. My trails are private, so there is no law broken on them. Plus I don’t really want a ton of speed to get to them, just plenty of power to clear hills along the way.

My issue with the execution is that the cadence sensor is less than stellar-an on/off switch. It provides xxx watts per level up to a given max RPM. Not a huge issue, but the watts at the lowest level are ample to get it up to its max rpm in low gears, and that rpm is faster than I will usually want to go on my trails. I suspect I will enjoy it much more if I reprogram the lower power modes with a corresponding lower max rpm.

A cleaner execution might involve a variable max RPM based on cadence speed, or of course vary the watts and rpm based in torque


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm not a fan of them because I'm a a purist, as some may say. I see them as taking the easy way out, and not earning the speed and power on one's own accord and efforts. That's why I get annoyed with e-riders, but I'm not about the call them out or act outwardly untoward with them. 

But that doesn't matter in the scheme of things. I can understand their appeal to many, just not me.


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## mousehunter (Sep 22, 2015)

Just updating, found a twerk in the programming. The bike should have come with 9 power levels, those were programmed with both watt and rpm limits, however the display had toggled it over to the optional 5 power levels-which apparently did not have rpm limits. Now that it is switched over to 9 levels, level 1 has a speed of 10mph rather than 20. 

I might still get a programmer to reduce it more, but that is more manageable.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

sgltrak said:


> OP, much of the concern about their use is in the US. They are more widely accepted in other parts of the world, and that may be the case where you are in South Africa.
> 
> In many places here in the US, mountain bikes were prohibited on trails for a very long time. The fight to gain access to many of these trails was long and difficult with many hiking and horse riding groups opposing the use of bicycles on the trails. Part of the argument for their inclusion and a big part of the reason bicycles finally won the right to use trails in many areas was the fact that bicycles are non-motorized conveyances and were differentiated from the motorcycles that the hiking and horseman groups didn't want on the trails. Many bicyclists who battled to gain access to some riding areas are worried that cyclists using motorized means of travel in these areas could potentially jeapordize that access.
> 
> ...


This thread should have ended here. The most sensible answer to the OP's question.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sgltrak said:


> OP, much of the concern about their use is in the US. They are more widely accepted in other parts of the world, and that may be the case where you are in South Africa.
> 
> In many places here in the US, mountain bikes were prohibited on trails for a very long time. The fight to gain access to many of these trails was long and difficult with many hiking and horse riding groups opposing the use of bicycles on the trails. Part of the argument for their inclusion and a big part of the reason bicycles finally won the right to use trails in many areas was the fact that bicycles are non-motorized conveyances and were differentiated from the motorcycles that the hiking and horseman groups didn't want on the trails. Many bicyclists who battled to gain access to some riding areas are worried that cyclists using motorized means of travel in these areas could potentially jeapordize that access.
> 
> ...


What are the reason the non-bikers want bikes off the trails? I have even really gotten a handle on why. When I have asked hikers that I know that dislike bikes on trails I just get "because they don't belong" and they will not discuss any further.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

KenPsz said:


> What are the reason the non-bikers want bikes off the trails? I have even really gotten a handle on why. When I have asked hikers that I know that dislike bikes on trails I just get "because they don't belong" and they will not discuss any further.


Some feel intimidated by the bike riders, often specifically mentioning speed and lack of trail etiquette.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sgltrak said:


> Some feel intimidated by the bike riders, often specifically mentioning speed and lack of trail etiquette.


Yeah that is a fair criticism, unfortunately.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> What are the reason the non-bikers want bikes off the trails? I have even really gotten a handle on why. When I have asked hikers that I know that dislike bikes on trails I just get "because they don't belong" and they will not discuss any further.


Go for a hike on a popular mountain bike trail with your small children. At best, it can be distracting and annoying. At worst, it can be terrifying and dangerous.

It's really worth putting yourself in trail runners/hikers/nordic skiers/etc shoes sometimes to see how things work differently from their perspective.

-Walt


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Walt said:


> Go for a hike on a popular mountain bike trail with your small children. At best, it can be distracting and annoying. At worst, it can be terrifying and dangerous.
> 
> It's really worth putting yourself in trail runners/hikers/nordic skiers/etc shoes sometimes to see how things work differently from their perspective.
> 
> -Walt


Oh I can see that for sure. Hell I have almost been run over while on my bike by other riders.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> What are the reason the non-bikers want bikes off the trails? I have even really gotten a handle on why. When I have asked hikers that I know that dislike bikes on trails I just get "because they don't belong" and they will not discuss any further.


Probably because to them the answer seems too obvious to be worth explaining. Solitude to hikers is like a great downhill run for mountain bikers.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Probably because to them the answer seems too obvious to be worth explaining. Solitude to hikers is like a great downhill run for mountain bikers.


That's a better explanation than I have gotten from hikers.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> That's a better explanation than I have gotten from hikers.


I am a hiker, more accurately I enjoy walking through canyons and over mountains. If you asked me that out on the trail I'd probably just say a cordial whatever and part ways asap. Nothing personal.

Also I know lots of hikers who don't want mountain bikers off the trails, not all of them anyway. Lots of them like mountain biking too.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Yep, I'm a mountain biker, trail runner and hiker. Definitely gives you a better perspective to be on foot as well as on wheels.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

It doesn't help that some mountain bikers (and road bikers) yell "Get the **** out of the way" because you happen to stop on the trail after your buddy took a spill because you're messing up their flow or strava time.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Lemonaid said:


> It doesn't help that some mountain bikers (and road bikers) yell "Get the **** out of the way" because you happen to stop on the trail after your buddy took a spill because you're messing up their flow or strava time.


I had to look up Strava and man what a crazy thing. Nothing like making a real world event into a video leader board.

Everyone I ever bring into mountain biking gets the trail etiquette talk.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> I had to look up Strava and man what a crazy thing. Nothing like making a real world event into a video leader board.
> 
> Everyone I ever bring into mountain biking gets the trail etiquette talk.


Video leader board???

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Video leader board???
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry I left off game

To me it sounds like a video game leader board.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> I had to look up Strava and man what a crazy thing. Nothing like making a real world event into a video leader board.


Aside from a leaderboard I see no correlation between Strava and video games.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Aside from a leaderboard I see no correlation between Strava and video games.


The only thing I know about Strava is this leader board thing and how people seem to be getting upset they are bumped from the top.

Apps like Strava are not something I want to mix into a hobby I do for fun.

You see about as much correlation between Strava and video games as I do between an ebike and a motorcyle or moped.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> The only thing I know about Strava is this leader board thing and how people seem to be getting upset they are bumped from the top.


Who seems to be getting upset? Anyone you know?

I've been bumped before. It's no big deal but if a motorbike bumped me I'd flag it.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to J.B. Weld again.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Who seems to be getting upset? Anyone you know?
> 
> I've been bumped before. It's no big deal but if a motorbike bumped me I'd flag it.


If you lookup ebike hate the Strava thing is all over the place. It does seem to be really bothering people.

I don't know anyone that uses Strava that is why I had to go and look it up. I ride with people that just want to have fun, no one is competitive about the rides.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> If you lookup ebike hate the Strava thing is all over the place. It does seem to be really bothering people.


Only if you see it that way.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> If you lookup ebike hate the Strava thing is all over the place. It does seem to be really bothering people.


I'm guessing most people don't care whether someone knocks them out of the top 3 on their local trail. I certainly don't. And I don't hate anyone on an e-bike, or their bike.

I DO care about people compromising the relationship with local land managers by riding in an illegal manner.

But, of course, you will likely classify any remark that doesn't jive with your views on the issue as "hate".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> I'm guessing most people don't care whether someone knocks them out of the top 3 on their local trail. I certainly don't. And I don't hate anyone on an e-bike, or their bike.
> 
> I DO care about people compromising the relationship with local land managers by riding in an illegal manner.
> 
> ...


You have rational concerns so those are not hate. Those are concerns that can be discussed and alleviated.

What I classify as hate is very distinct on this subject and boils down to a few types of comments.

1) Your lazy and just cheating.
2) You need to earn your turns
3) It is motorized, end of discussion
4) ebikes will destroy the trails
5) ebikes suck
6) ebikes will get trails closed guaranteed!

There are variations on those three as well.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KenPsz said:


> You have rational concerns so those are not hate. Those are concerns that can be discussed and alleviated.
> 
> What I classify as hate is very distinct on this subject and boils down to a few types of comments.
> 
> ...


Again, you see hate where many people see legitimate concerns. Now you're just trolling in an attempt to perpetuate this gem of a thread.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> If you lookup ebike hate the Strava thing is all over the place. It does seem to be really bothering people.


ehate is a lot more prevelant than the actual deal ime. That "uh oh" email is a real kick in the nuts though  and it is understandable (to me) that lots of people might find it pretty lame to get that message from an electric bike rider.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KenPsz said:


> I had to look up Strava.


What's amazing to me is at your level of ignorance, you make a habit of going online and trying to tell people how things should be. You had no idea what Strava or a rail-trail were until just now, but you think that people who have been deeply involved in the sport for decades need YOU to teach them lessons.

What was that syndrome again? Dunning-Kruger right?
Seems to be running rampant.


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> 3) It is motorized, end of discussion


Just curious what you call the "thingie" that converts electrical current into torque??


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> What was that syndrome again? Dunning-Kruger right?
> Seems to be running rampant.


Slaphead wins the internet for the day.

-Walt


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Walt said:


> Slaphead wins the internet for the day.
> 
> -Walt


Ah yes, people with no positive interest in Pedal assist bikes, wasting their day with hopes and dreams of winning the internet. classy


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

figofspee said:


> Ah yes, people with no positive interest in Pedal assist bikes, wasting their day with hopes and dreams of winning the internet. classy


No one is taking it nearly as seriously as you're proposing.

I dont care about ebikes at all. I dont care if they're on the trails or who's riding them or anything. I dont care if they bump my strava time either.

But again, I dont care about ebikes. I'm not interested in reading about them on mountain bike forums or pages.

To me, its like a separate sport entirely. Its like wakeboarding. Im pretty uninterested in wake boarding, but I have zero against it. However, I dont want my mountain biking feeds and forums flooded with stuff about wakeboarding.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

One Pivot said:


> No one is taking it nearly as seriously as you're proposing.
> 
> I dont care about ebikes at all. I dont care if they're on the trails or who's riding them or anything. I dont care if they bump my strava time either.
> 
> ...


This isn't a mountain bike forum. It's an e-bike forum. Clicking on the forum, clicking on the topic, clicking on the thread are entirely optional actions that one would assume would be skipped by someone who doesn't care about e-bikes at all.

I don't click on wakeboarding forums either. Even on the inboard tow-boat sites I frequent.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Dammit! I could have sworn this was in general when I replied.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

figofspee said:


> Ah yes, people with no positive interest in Pedal assist bikes, wasting their day with hopes and dreams of winning the internet. classy


I have interest in e-bikes. Was actually a mod for this sub-forum for awhile.

Which is why when I hear people who have zero idea what they're talking about throwing around wild misinformation, I chime in with actual information. 
As opposed to yourself.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

...


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