# "boutique" bike vs mega-corporation bike



## madduck (Oct 27, 2008)

time for a new ride...but don't we always need a new/another bike??? n+1 always. 

i'm a weekend warrior at best who wants to continue to get better, but it's for fun and fitness, i'm not paying any bills or buying any food with my bike skills that's for sure.

my preference is to spend my money on and with the local shops and small business owner whenever and as much as i can. however there is the value to cost quotient that i'm struggling with. does $4k on a trek, cannonade, specialized frame get me "more" bike than a pivot, ibis, salsa, due to the huge r&d, quality control and just overall cost advantages the huge corp's have?

i really like having something that's not mainstream, but how much, if any, am i sacrificing by not being mainstream? if we're splitting hairs then i'll sacrifice to be different. but if there is a big difference in quality, i'm not _that_ vain. yet. 

help me spend my money...wisely. 
thanks


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## Saladin (Sep 25, 2014)

Absolutely not. Spending $4-8K might get you more warranty from a bigger corporation, but not more bike. What are you buying though? Personally I'd rather spend my money on the bike than the warranty. 

Read some reviews. Read the forums. You'll see that the "boutique" bikes from Pivot, Ibis, Santa Cruz, Yeti are mentioned much more often and much more favorably than those from Specialized, Cannondale, Giant and Trek.

The biggest difference between the big brands and the boutique brands is the advertising budget that the big brands have to make them seem better to the less informed audience.


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## madduck (Oct 27, 2008)

i'm very interested in salsa and pivot. perhaps turner but i've read some questionable reviews about their warranty issues.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I have a Pivot 5.7c. After 3 yrs cracked the rear triangle on a rock...not a flaw in the bike. I don't think anyone would have covered it. pivot gave me a reduced price on the replacement. That's my only experience.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

In four years I have had two warranty related issues on two different Santa Cruz bikes. What a wonderful experience that I have had in dealing with Santa Cruz! You know who you are going to deal by name. Each time they bent over backwards to accommodate me and ensure my ride was back on the trail in short order. The first time I cracked a swing arm on a Thursday evening and had a planned ride on Saturday afternoon. They FedEx'd a new one Priority AM Saturday delivery and I was on the bike by Saturday noon. While I can't speak for the other bikes, I can not say enough good things about Santa Cruz.


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## madduck (Oct 27, 2008)

ah! santa cruz also! can't believe i forgot that one! right now though i am leaning towards a horsethief carbon. 

glad to hear others positive experiences with the non-mega-corp bike makers.


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

madduck said:


> i'm very interested in salsa and pivot. perhaps turner but i've read some questionable reviews about their warranty issues.


Really? I've seen nothing but praise of the highest level for Turners after same support. One of the good things with a small brand is that you are often dealing direct or almost direct with the guy who's name is on down tube. I've seen them offer to replace the front triangle of a frame despite saying the issue raised isn't a problem structurally.


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## madduck (Oct 27, 2008)

David R said:


> Really? I've seen nothing but praise of the highest level for Turners after same support. One of the good things with a small brand is that you are often dealing direct or almost direct with the guy who's name is on down tube. I've seen them offer to replace the front triangle of a frame despite saying the issue raised isn't a problem structurally.


i'm aware people are more likely to complain about poor performance vs take the time to praise good. not that i've seen a lot, it's all relative. more have popped up with them vs salsa, and pivot. i've seen so few with all of them that 4 or 5 is a lot when you're comparing that to 1-2. browser history can influence so many things also hence me asking questions. always glad to hear positive stuff about the small guys. thx


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I don't think there's a huge difference between those brands as far as r&d, end quality, that sort of thing. Some of the smaller boutique makers put out some really innovative stuff.

Biggest difference I see is at the low end.

If you have the budget, buy what you like. If your budget is tight, stay away from new boutique stuff, because they don't sell anything at the low end.

My house used to be full of Specialized bikes and even before that Diamondbacks. It's what I had the budget for. The last 3 bikes in the house have been two Salsas and a Santa Cruz. The Santa Cruz was bought used, but still a great bike. The first Salsa I bought as a frame because I got a good price on it, and it fit my needs (steel commuter bike). I built it with parts I already had from a previous steel commuter (an On-One which I didn't like so much, and sold the frame/fork). The newest Salsa was a specific bike that I ACTUALLY wanted because of Salsa's innovation (Bucksaw). I still bought the frame and built it with parts I chose, rather than buying a complete bike. Just today, I passed 160 winter miles on that bike since December.

I am at a point where I strongly prefer building bikes from the frame up. The bigger companies don't really offer much of that. Typically their highest end, most expensive frame, which I also typically don't want. The mid-sized boutique brands do a much better job of offering frames for all their models, so I think that's where I'll be for the foreseeable future. I really would like a solid custom steel hardtail, though. Something versatile enough to be built for more aggressive riding, or built light and fast. And most importantly, something that I can keep and ride for a very long time, no matter what else I happen to own. For something like that, I'd probably go through one of the local framebuilders. It will probably be awhile before I can afford another bike, though.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

I'm not sure what you've seen to get the impression that Turner has warranty issues; generally they're considered about as good as it gets. Most of the boutique companies are in the same category. The only issue that ever really arises is that their inventories are smaller than the big companies, occasionally leading to longer wait times on the resolution. Santa Cruz is probably in the sweet spot between boutique responsiveness and major inventory. And frankly, I know a number of people who have had less than stellar warranty processes with the biggest of the big majors, too.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I think anyone at any point in time can have a wonderful experience or one that's a total terror-fraught play. Perhaps it depends on who you're dealing with at the other end of the line and the attitude of both parties. Pick a number.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

I agree with Harold, build your own. I quit buying complete when I got tired of buying a packaged "kit". I've built my last 5 bikes. Pick the frame of your choice, equip as your heart desires, including rim/hub combos, etc. You'll have to haul your frame to your LBS to get the head and BB faced and chased, but otherwise building is not difficult at all.

My bikes are unique, not another like them in the world, and I didn't have to pull a bunch of shyt off them that I've already paid for just to trade up to what I want. Scour the internet for the best price, fuk the local shops, when you're dropping $6-8K a year on bikes, year after year, it's all about bang for the buck.


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## madduck (Oct 27, 2008)

i've only seen a few issues with all of them. when you see 2 or 3 issues with one company then 4-6 with another, percentage wise it's double, numbers wise it's still very negligible. and my browser may be directing me one way with one company another with a different company. none of the company's i've mentioned have been awful, it's all relative. i'm quite ignorant when it comes to mtn biking, been a roadie forever so i'm behind the curve. i'll admit that what i've perceived as issues with turner seem to be in error from the input all y'all have provided, glad to hear that. 

i usually built most of my bikes, road and cx, but again with mtb's i'm really ignorant. to get the quality of build that i want i don't think i can it do myself. when you start getting in to the more expensive equipment i want it dialed in, not almost dialed in, which where i'd prob fall if not in the "not at all" dialed in category. 

i don't mind letting the local shop do it, i can help out a neighborhood business, get a bike assembled properly and be on the trail quicker than if i did it myself generally. 

a man's gotta know his limitations.


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## kevinboyer (Jan 19, 2012)

Optimus said:


> I agree with Harold, build your own. I quit buying complete when I got tired of buying a packaged "kit". I've built my last 5 bikes. Pick the frame of your choice, equip as your heart desires, including rim/hub combos, etc. You'll have to haul your frame to your LBS to get the head and BB faced and chased, but otherwise building is not difficult at all.
> 
> My bikes are unique, not another like them in the world, and I didn't have to pull a bunch of shyt off them that I've already paid for just to trade up to what I want. Scour the internet for the best price, fuk the local shops, when you're dropping $6-8K a year on bikes, year after year, it's all about bang for the buck.


^ ^ ^
Plus 100.

I too have built 4 complete custom bikes in the last 3.5 years, and am in the process of building up a fifth, new Knolly Warden to compliment the Knolly Endorphin I just built 4 month ago. Each one of them has been completely different, yet spectacular. I thoroughly enjoy scouring the interwebs looking for that deal, or that part that you don't see everyday on every bike. I've had riders stop me on the trails to admire my bikes and ask questions about certain parts and where I got them from. It gives me great satisfaction. Nothing wrong with buying from an LBS, but there is SO much stuff out there to be had to make your bike personal, and unique. Dare to be different.


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## mtnbiker64 (Nov 17, 2004)

Check out turner. I'm doing my own flux build and have gotten most of my questions answered directly by dave turner. You can't get better service than that. I myself haven't heard of any bad issues regarding warranty. That is 1 reason i went with a turner frame. Plus the workmanship and finish on the frame is top notch. Any and all bikes have their differences. Stick with something you like.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

madduck said:


> i usually built most of my bikes, road and cx, but again with mtb's i'm really ignorant. to get the quality of build that i want i don't think i can it do myself. when you start getting in to the more expensive equipment i want it dialed in, not almost dialed in, which where i'd prob fall if not in the "not at all" dialed in category.
> 
> i don't mind letting the local shop do it, i can help out a neighborhood business, get a bike assembled properly and be on the trail quicker than if i did it myself generally.


Not true, assembling a bike is the same, road or trail, screws are screws. A store bought is not dialed in complete, it's a selection of parts chosen for the general masses with a general "type" of riding targeted, no distinction between a 140 lb or 240 lb rider. Doing your research and dialing it yourself is the only way to get it done complete. Besides, I've seen lots and lots of very substandard work come out of LBSs. Save the labor charge and spend up on equipment.


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## lorsban (Sep 2, 2009)

I have a Santa Cruz frame that I built up and a Schwinn 29er that was complete.

Obviously, the Santa Cruz started off being more "dialed" but I've slowly made the Schwinn fit me like how the Santa Cruz does. 

With regards to warranty and failures, I work with the LBS. A good one would handle replacements if needed. 

One thing about parts tho, it's tough to beat a big company that can buy parts by the boatload. You could get a built bike with parts you like and upgrade just the frame later.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

Tough though to spec a new bike with with Easton Havocs, e*thirteen LG1+ hubs, Hope V4 brakes, leather WTB Vigo saddle, with a Pike and CCDBair dialed for your weight.


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

I think the shop you get the bike from matters as much if not more then the
make. A good shop will take care of you one way or another. However my
new Turner Flux is the best trail bike I've ever been on.


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## emu26 (Jun 23, 2008)

Build your own. Choose the frame you like then add on what you want and can afford. There are bargains to be had if you are happy to wait for sales / shop around, Yeah Giant are going to be hard to beat on price but doing it youself adds so much to the joy of riding, well it certainly does for me. It also means I know my bike which I think makes it easier to fix things trail side.

I also agree with what John has said, the shop makes a big difference. even though I buy a lot on-line, we get ripped off with middle men down under, I always try and do consumables through my LBS, they also service my wheels. You never know when you are going to need them.

HTH


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## Rock (Jan 13, 2004)

Do you guys really consider Santa Cruz a boutique brand? 

They may not sell as much as Trek, but I consider them one of the larger brands. Certainly larger than Cannondale, at least as far as MTB goes.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Rock said:


> Do you guys really consider Santa Cruz a boutique brand?
> 
> They may not sell as much as Trek, but I consider them one of the larger brands. Certainly larger than Cannondale, at least as far as MTB goes.


Perhaps first we need to define boutique. I think of boutique as one that distinguishes itself from the mass-market by offering specialized products to a somewhat smaller group accentuated by higher prices to accommodate the niche market demands.

In that respect, I feel Santa Cruz is boutique. However, they are expanding into the masses market by riding the wave crest of high-end product brand and name recognition to fill a lower-end entry level vacuum.

They are still a small privately held company run by the original principles that remain actively engaged in the day-to-day operations. Rob Roskopp and Rich Novak founded Santa Cruz Bicycles in 1994. Roskopp and Novak joined forces with Mike Marquez, a bike engineer with particular experience in bicycle suspension, and designer Tom Morris to create some prototype bike models.

So perhaps Santa Cruz is slipping beyond the coined term, but I fail to place them in the league of Cannondale or other mega-producers like Trek. They continue to serve and address the mountain bike niche market in innovation and service. Their sales have seen rapid growth and they continue to grow, but maintain that close, grass-roots association to what's going on in real-time mountain biking.

Anyway you look at it, they still provide boutique quality product and service, regardless of the markets they serve.


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## ltspd1 (Nov 25, 2007)

I don't know how much you sacrifice by not going "mainstream," but it's my impression that some of the less mainstream brands cited above sometime are sold by smaller shops that put a priority on customer service. At least that's been my experience with my most recent bike purchase, an Intense T275c, which I bought from a small, funky shop that also carries Ibis, Turner, and Foes. The owner treats me like a rock star every time I stop by, and on several occasions has called me just to check in to see how things are going with the bike. This is much different than the other shops I've patronized, and from whom I've bought a variety of $5k bigger brand bikes. Those guys act like they've never seen me before. 

All that said, there's lots of great bikes out there, and you should buy the bike that's best for you from the perspective of fit and how and where you ride, regardless of whether its mainstream or not. Good luck.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ltspd1 said:


> All that said, there's lots of great bikes out there, and you should buy the bike that's best for you from the perspective of fit and how and where you ride, regardless of whether its mainstream or not. Good luck.


This.

But if having a truly unique bike is something you like the idea of, the only way to get there is starting with a custom frame, designed and built for one person - you. Hanging parts on an off-the-shelf frame isn't really the same thing. You can put a different steering wheel and gas cap cover on your Honda, but at it's heart, it's still just another Civic.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Yeah, Santa Cruz may be one of the biggest "boutique" brands out there, but they're no way in Cannondale's league. Cannondale being owned by Dorel, a "sporting goods conglomerate" far bigger than Trek or Specialized or Giant specializes in cheap, mass market bikes you find at box stores. Cannondale is Dorel's "high end" brand, but they're still part of a mega corporation.

Salsa toes the line in this category. Most shops that carry the brand carry them as a smaller volume boutique brand to supplement other brands, even though Salsa is owned by QBP, which fits the definition of a conglomerate. Most shops that carry Cannondale, carry Cannondale as one of their "main" bread & butter brands for the masses.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

ltspd1 said:


> I don't know how much you sacrifice by not going "mainstream," but it's my impression that some of the less mainstream brands cited above sometime are sold by smaller shops that put a priority on customer service. At least that's been my experience with my most recent bike purchase, an Intense T275c, which I bought from a small, funky shop that also carries Ibis, Turner, and Foes. The owner treats me like a rock star every time I stop by, and on several occasions has called me just to check in to see how things are going with the bike. This is much different than the other shops I've patronized, and from whom I've bought a variety of $5k bigger brand bikes. Those guys act like they've never seen me before.
> 
> All that said, there's lots of great bikes out there, and you should buy the bike that's best for you from the perspective of fit and how and where you ride, regardless of whether its mainstream or not. Good luck.


You've scored! The quintessential 'boutique' bike shop.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

David R said:


> Really? I've seen nothing but praise of the highest level for Turners after same support. One of the good things with a small brand is that you are often dealing direct or almost direct with the guy who's name is on down tube. I've seen them offer to replace the front triangle of a frame despite saying the issue raised isn't a problem structurally.


I called Turner Bikes with a question and talked to Dave Turner, who answered my questions in a very knowledgeable manner. Try that with a big company and your not going to talk with the owner or designer.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Travis Bickle said:


> I called Turner Bikes with a question and talked to Dave Turner, who answered my questions in a very knowledgeable manner. Try that with a big company and your not going to talk with the owner or designer.


How funny! Try that with a big company and you might struggle get beyond the automated voice command system and even speak to real person.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

madduck said:


> i'm very interested in salsa and pivot. perhaps turner but i've read some questionable reviews about their warranty issues.


Well I've had 4 Turners since 03 and they are a great company to deal with. Read the past 12 years of Turner forum and you will see the positive rep.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

On the original ?. I don't think you give up anything with a smaller company once you get to a certain level of spec. Small companies cater more to enthusiasts who are going for the higher end bikes. I have to say that with my latest bike I did look at bikes from a couple of large companies but I couldn't get exactly what I wanted. I'm building up. Knolly Warden exactly the way I want it.


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## madduck (Oct 27, 2008)

i appreaciate everyones input here. i'll proceed with my "boutique" search, and keep turner in the mix. 

i looked at their website and may try to get out there for a demo ride, i'm in phoenix and have some vacation coming up so a road trip may be in order.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

One added plus with going with a boutique brand is that as often as not, you can get a frame that's made here in the USA, instead of by a faceless factory woker in China or Taiwan and your money continues to circulate here, benefiting working people, instead of getting socked away by a huge multinational corporations, with payouts to already wealthy shareholders. A boutique builder can often offer a degree of customization, as well, different paint, tweaks on fit & geometry, etc. For those reasons, my next MTB frame will be from Ventana and I plan on having a custom CX/Gravel frame made by Rosko Cycles.


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## RWhiz (Jun 10, 2013)

Personally I'd love a boutique bike, when my wife got into tri's we picked up an Orbea frame and did the build ourselves with a Campagnolo groupo. That was cool, but when I wanted a new mountain bike I went into our LBS (we get great service) and picked a Speciallized Stump jumper, got $600 off and I was riding.

Little though little effort on my part, but a lot of riding since. See I love riding mountain bikes, I don't like shopping for bikes, and I dont recieve any part of my identy from the name stenciled on the down tube. 

Give me a bike with good suspention, tires and breaks, and a single track and I'm good.


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## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

I just went on my LBS website and they have a Santa Cruz Highball on sale. As I was asking myself what the heck are they doing with a Santa Cruz, I saw the Santa Cruz logo on the top of their page. How did I miss that? All I've ever seen are Treks and Specialized(checking their website to make sure my $700 off stumpy is still there shhhhhhhhhh)


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

Nicely done Whiz. That is what it is all about.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

I got a Big Bike shop about 20 miles from me, I watch for year end closeouts saving hundreds. have done this twice now.
Saved $150 on the first bike and the second, $450

They carry Giant and Scott, so far due to the deals both bikes from them were Scott's
They do all I ask of them and so far are durable.

I feed my two Local bike shop's all my hop up, parts and supply money, one at 4 miles the other 5 miles out. I get all I need locally and know any warranty Issues will get handled face to face.

If I suddenly had big money for a 'boutique' bike I'd still spend it on a killer model at one of my Local Bike Shops for the above reasons.
My local dealers all together cover Specialized, Trek, Giant, Scott and a few others,
So I'm good...


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## M-Train (Jan 12, 2008)

You know who rides Trek? Lance Armstrong!


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I don't consider Santa Cruz as boutique. They got a full line up, sold as the flagship brands in a number of LBS, internationally. Their only niche is doing off-road, but they did do limited roadie stuff under the Swobo brand.


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## OldZaskar (Oct 18, 2007)

I think it's kind of funny how big bike companies get bashed. Do you drive a boutique car? Wear boutique jeans? Use a boutique computer? Watch a boutique TV? 

Large companies can afford more R&D. They can afford to sponsor elite athletes and learn from them, e.g. what works, where to improve, etc. They negotiate supplier (Shimano, SRAM, Mavic, etc. ) deals that boutiques can't. And yes, they can afford to advertise more and have better warranties. Economies of scale is a good thing for buyer and business. 

I guess some guys like the idea of not having to say "I have a Cannondale" or "I ride a Trek". But, if you're secure... I mean if you're okay with that. I still think that - yes, you can get "more" bike for the money with a large manufacturer.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

OldZaskar said:


> I think it's kind of funny how big bike companies get bashed. Do you drive a boutique car? Use a boutique computer?
> 
> I guess some guys like the idea of not having to say "I have a Cannondale" or "I ride a Trek". But, if you're secure... I mean if you're okay with that. I still think that - yes, you can get "more" bike for the money with a large manufacturer.


Very highly modified Mustang, highly modified Jeep, custom built computer, custom built bikes. Has nothing to do with security, has everything to do with having exactly the performance that I want.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Like Henry Ford said: "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black."


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## OldZaskar (Oct 18, 2007)

Optimus said:


> Very highly modified Mustang, highly modified Jeep, custom built computer, custom built bikes. Has nothing to do with security, has everything to do with having exactly the performance that I want.


A modified Ford, a modified Jeep... that's the same as buying a Cannonade or Trek off the floor and swapping some parts.

I built a CJ8 from the frame up - literally started with the frame...
(1 week into the build)


Selected every part from drive train to the the color of brackets and valve covers...


To end up with exactly what I wanted...


And yeah - it cost a TON more to build a Jeep this way.

I'm not disagreeing with the point that building a bike from the frame up is a great way to end exactly what you want. The OP asked if you get "more" bike for the $$$ with the big companies. I think you do.

I do think a lot of guys buy "cooler" brands specifically because they aren't big brands.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

OldZaskar said:


> A modified Ford, a modified Jeep... that's the same as buying a Cannonade or Trek off the floor and swapping some parts.
> 
> I built a CJ8 from the frame up - literally started with the frame...
> (1 week into the build)
> ...


Not quite, Mustang is an 84 convertible, 3 year resto mod project, removed every single thing that could possible come off, including all wiring. The only thing left from original is the sheet metal, everything was upgraded, and I do mean everything, everything has a specific purpose. Bolts were about the only thing reused. Yes, like your Jeep, more expensive doing it this way. But I ended up with a very sleeper looking 11 second convertible, super reliable. I've had the car 12 years, not a single break down, so $32K wasn't a bad bit to spend. Who else drops $32K on a car and is still beating the piss out of it 12 years later with zero mechanicals?

Yeah, Jeep was a Trek, mine anyway. Yours is nice, good work you did there.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

anyone who drives a subaru, essentially drives a "boutique car." i know lots of mtb riders who drive Subies.


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

Gigantic said:


> anyone who drives a subaru, essentially drives a "boutique car." i know lots of mtb riders who drive Subies.


Heh... driving to SantaFe they constituted 10% of the vehicles zooming right by me. Amusing what is and isn't actually boutique by distribution... even more so when counting just by number of sightings in the wild -- I see lots of Santa Cruz, Ibis, and Turner bikes actually out on the trail - maybe the big three brands are just better at selling bikes to into disused garaged states.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

In my experience, yes, but not all "boutique" brands are equal. I think there are at least as many that make you *think* you are getting something above and beyond, when you are not. 

Some of my good examples though:

My turner frames were simply beyond reproach when it came to pivots and longevity. The grease-port + IGUS bushing system was far better than the bearings that you usually find in mass-produced bikes. Bearings, turns out, are great for complete revolutions at high RPMs, but poor for partial rotations like suspension members, unless you go crazy high end and design something like a tapered bearing that can withstand lateral forces. So that said, the turners I had lasted year after year after year, it was great. I eventually changed out the bushings, but they didn't *need* it at the time, I just figured it was time for a rebuild. Add to this, they actually give you a means to purge the grease and keep it fresh. Most other bikes use bearings with a minimum of grease and they simply self-destroy themselves in a season or two. The suspension might cycle, but if you take apart the bike and get that bearing out, you'll realize it's pitted, rough, sometimes seized if you try to move it by hand. This exactly describes the bearings of my speclaized enduro that I am in the process of rebuilding. 1.5 seasons or so, bearings destroyed. It's not so much that they are destroyed, it's that you need crazy specialized (hmm, sound familiar!?) tools to take them out and they don't give any way to replenish the grease while it's in there, which would dramatically increase the life span. Then there's the issue of the IGUS bushings being far stiffer laterally than bearings. The only downside is the machining precision required and slightly more expense for things like zirk grease fittings, etc. 

It's the small attention to detail aspects like these that you find with a good "boutique" mtb company. The BB/main pivot/shock mount was machined out of one big chunk of aluminum, making for a stiff bike and reducing wear due to flex. 

It can be hit and miss though, I had a foes and while the lateral stiffness of the foes was above and beyond, they ruined it with the curnut shocks (simply poor performance compared to most mainstream shocks) and a ~4.5" bolt that went through the shock and scissor link, allowing for too much leverage, causing the bolt to repeatedly bend. If you look at most well designed bikes, the shock bolts are either huge diameter or the length is kept to a minimum to reduce the leverage imparted. To this extent, turner used machined linkages that curved "inwards" towards the shock, allowing for a real short bolt to be used. Rocky Mountain started doing this with mass-production and called it their "3-d" link. Most decent bikes use something like this these days and it's not just limited to high-end boutique bikes.

To be fair to Foes, they've seen some of their past errors and addressed most of them, that was years ago, but some manufacturers were well sorted out even back then.

So the answer is, yes, you are sometimes getting something that is above and beyond. My customer service with Turner was also wonderful, I highly recommend them. I find their bikes to be well thought out and simply a bike that you are going to use season after season. By comparison, I find many mass-produced bikes to be more of a bike that you are going to use for a couple seasons, and then it will be shot. Shock may be proprietary and lack support after a few years, bearings aren't meant to last, they kept the weight down which allowed flex and fatigue to add up, etc. 

How do you tell the difference? Well, either you care about performance or aren't as much of a "snob" as some of us. The mass produced bikes DO keep getting better and better, there's no doubt about that. Some of us can tell a big difference between good suspension and so-so, between laterally stiff bikes and flexy ones, and we can spot the design features that will allow the bike to hold up season after season. Sometimes it's still a bit of a guess. Most of the companies with good reputations like Turner, Pivot, Knolly, Ibis, Ventana, etc, got there based on their quality and bikes, so ask around and find out why those owners like their bikes. If you don't want to spend the time being this much of a bike snob, get a nice mass-produced bike and enjoy. There is NOTHING wrong with that and many of those bikes ARE better than some of the boutique bikes.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

OldZaskar said:


> Large companies can afford more R&D. They can afford to sponsor elite athletes and learn from them, e.g. what works, where to improve, etc. They negotiate supplier (Shimano, SRAM, Mavic, etc. ) deals that boutiques can't. And yes, they can afford to advertise more and have better warranties. Economies of scale is a good thing for buyer and business.


It's kind of a catch 22, they can afford more R&D, play with geometry more, play with different configurations, do more finite element analysis and often come up with superior strength to weight ratios, but they have to mass produce frames and maximize profit, while minimizing cost. This means that they aren't trying to win customers for life necessarily, make bikes that will last season after season, allow parts to be easily interchanged or compatible across multiple companies, they are trying to maximize profit in the short term. So that often means relatively cheap bearing systems, sometimes flexy designs that don't transfer power all that well or that really start to get "sloppy" after a year (every bike feels stiff right out of the factory, but what about 6 mo or a few seasons later?), or clearance to take a variety of shock designs, etc. Lots that the R&D budget doesn't necessarily do for you when you are mass-producing.

Unfortunately, I don't see Treks and Specialized FS bikes that seemed designed to go season after season.


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## SMR (Apr 20, 2004)

Boutique brands have typically been the high end small companies that have pushed the industry. Take for example when when Santa Cruz re-introduced VPP tech, they signed on Intense to lend some credibility. Now days all the big companies have expensive carbon models. I would say just because a company has an expensive carbon model or two doesn't make them boutique. In the US brands like Turner, Intense, Ventana etc along with a ton of small frame builders would be considered boutique IMO. I've owned big brand and boutique bikes and have had great customer service from both. I recently bought a Turner Burner, I had a 5-Spot for 8 yrs and have never owned a better bike. So I guess thats my preference, but its hard to bike a bad bike these days.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Jayem said:


> In my experience, yes, but not all "boutique" brands are equal. I think there are at least as many that make you *think* you are getting something above and beyond, when you are not.


Well said Jayem. I wish I could rep ya again, but you know how the system works.


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## OldZaskar (Oct 18, 2007)

SMR said:


> Boutique brands have typically been the high end small companies that have pushed the industry.


How? The vast majority of significant advancements in the mtb world have been by the big companies... that whole R&D thing. It was a big company that first gave us a suspension fork. And, it was a big bike company that first gave us full-suspension... the first carbon fiber mountain bike came from a large bike company... the list goes on


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

OldZaskar said:


> How? The vast majority of significant advancements in the mtb world have been by the big companies... that whole R&D thing. It was a big company that first gave us a suspension fork. And, it was a big bike company that first gave us full-suspension... the first carbon fiber mountain bike came from a large bike company... the list goes on


What advancements specifically? Was RS a big company at the time they gave us the first suspension fork, or was that considered "boutique"? Look at today, when boutique brands like Push and DVO are the ones really pushing technology. Fox and RS are going with "tried and true", manufacturing on economy of scale. Boutique is more willing to go out on a limb and charge as much as it takes to put something better on the market, the only questions are usually "will people pay for it?". Even things like hydroformed tubes were first pioneered by companies like Foes and others, before they became mainstream with Giant.


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## BikeIntelligencer (Jun 5, 2009)

???? Are you being sarcastic/ironic? 


OldZaskar said:


> How? The vast majority of significant advancements in the mtb world have been by the big companies... that whole R&D thing. It was a big company that first gave us a suspension fork. And, it was a big bike company that first gave us full-suspension... the first carbon fiber mountain bike came from a large bike company... the list goes on


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## RiceBrnr (Oct 13, 2014)

IMO, High dollar bikes got better customer service, better warranty, better R&D, better performance, etc. But if your not racing and your gonna do the build and the wrenching than buy what you want. If I put a fork that different specs than what my bike came with the warranty is voided. Get a frame that your build specs don't void warranty and shred.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

OldZaskar said:


> How? The vast majority of significant advancements in the mtb world have been by the big companies... that whole R&D thing. It was a big company that first gave us a suspension fork. And, it was a big bike company that first gave us full-suspension... the first carbon fiber mountain bike came from a large bike company... the list goes on


Yes, like the DW link.


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## BikeIntelligencer (Jun 5, 2009)

I have to think he's kidding. Paul Turner, Mert Lawwill, Kestrel. Boutique may be too grand a term for those guys when they came up with their designs etc.


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## Swissam (Apr 8, 2008)

How about YT? Boutique yet offers the most bang for your buck out of any other manufacturer at the moment, except maybe Canyon. Evil is also another boutique brand that offers excellent value. I don't consider Santa Cruz as being a boutique brand, more like a middle sized company like Scott.


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

*I ride Trek*

I ride Trek bikes. 2008 Remedy 8 which was replaced on warranty by a 2011 Remedy 9. I also so have a 2008 trek Pilot road bike. Both bikes purchased from the LBS who I have a great relationship with. When the swing arm cracked on the 2008 Remedy 8 a couple of days before my trip to Sedona the LBS lent me a Demo bike for my trip. The bikes are excellent rides covered by an excellent warranty. The relationship with your LBS is what's important here.

And Lance Armstrong, well we know who won those races. Haters are going to hate. If he hurt my feelings I guess I would too. I don't spend much time admiring sports heroes or movie stars ...


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## Thor29 (May 12, 2005)

OldZaskar, you are nuts. Specialized resisted 29er wheels for quite awhile. Even though it was Gary Fisher himself who was pushing them hard, it was all the little guys like Walt (of Waltworks) and Niner who were really learning how to make the big wheels work before the big companies finally jumped on the wagon. Kirk Pacenti is the guy behind the current trend towards 27.5 and he is not a big company guy. Surly might be part of a huge company, but the actual number of employees at Surly is quite small and they have been way ahead of the big boys for years - fat bikes, 29er, single speeds, 29er+, etc. The big companies are too conservative by nature, they cannot afford to take risks so they make bland bikes instead. This is normal. I used to work in the medical device industry and the giant companies could not make anything innovative or new, instead they just gobbled up little companies with new products.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Innovation through acquisition. Best bang for shareholder value. We all know for the big guys, shareholder value drives the ship.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Cleared2land said:


> Innovation through acquisition. Best bang for shareholder value. We all know for the big guys, shareholder value drives the ship.


Yes, one of the best examples was Sram buying up Sachs. Sram's chains were pitiful, but Sachs were actually pretty decent. Sachs also had the 1:1 derailleurs and the "alien" series of derailers that Sram later put out with their name on them, to be blunt, most of the early Sram products were just rebadged (and lots of the chain's weren't even!) Sachs products. Sram did very little "innovation" early on.

But in any case, the "innovation" idea is kind of pointless. Look at fatbikes, did Giant and Specialized go head-on into the fatbike market? No way, it took years for them to even make a product in these markets, which have been dominated by "boutique" type brands and manufacturers. Just in the last 2 or 3 years have we seen mass produced and "value" orientated ones start to show up all over the place.

Carbon rims? Again, started with boutique manufacturers like Envy (which was quickly copied by china).

The problem with the mass produced stuff is they are trying to make money, this isn't inherently bad, but it means they are trying to maximize their profit on each sale. This is why you don't get all the little attention-to-detail features and engineering that is designed to make the bike last. Again, nothing wrong with mass-produced, I have one of those bikes sitting right here, but it's not a Knolly or a Turner and there is a difference.


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## Rock (Jan 13, 2004)

Jayem said:


> The problem with the mass produced stuff is they are trying to make money, this isn't inherently bad, but it means they are trying to maximize their profit on each sale. This is why you don't get all the little attention-to-detail features and engineering that is designed to make the bike last. Again, nothing wrong with mass-produced, I have one of those bikes sitting right here, but it's not a Knolly or a Turner and there is a difference.


Do you think that (e.g.) Knolly and Turner do not want to maximize profits, that they aren't looking for faster and cheaper ways to manufacture their product? Do you believe that they don't want to grow their company larger and challenge the big companies? From what I have seen, if they aren't, they will not survive long term.

To cite an example given here, If the owner of a company answers the phone when I call his company, in the big picture, he's doing something wrong.

The "cottage industry" idea is very romantic and idealistic, but at least in today's world, not very realistic.


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## Dazed (Feb 7, 2004)

madduck said:


> i'm aware people are more likely to complain about poor performance vs take the time to praise good. not that i've seen a lot, it's all relative. more have popped up with them vs salsa, and pivot. i've seen so few with all of them that 4 or 5 is a lot when you're comparing that to 1-2. browser history can influence so many things also hence me asking questions. always glad to hear positive stuff about the small guys. thx


I, for one, wouldn't even put Salsa and Pivot in the same league as Turner. All great bikes, I'm sure, but brands like Turner has that little extra "X-factor".


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## Dazed (Feb 7, 2004)

Gigantic said:


> One added plus with going with a boutique brand is that as often as not, you can get a frame that's made here in the USA, instead of by a faceless factory woker in China or Taiwan and your money continues to circulate here, benefiting working people, instead of getting socked away by a huge multinational corporations, with payouts to already wealthy shareholders.


I'm pretty sure Taiwanese welders have faces too, and appreciate their paychecks just as much as American ones.

I appreciate the fact that it's very cool to have a frame that's built by, or at least in the designer's premises or own factory, (I love my Ventana!) but then there's not really many to choose from. Almost everything carbon comes from Taiwan or China, with market leading build quality, I might add. Even the Turner Czar as well as Ibis, Intense, etc. Nothing wrong with that. Of course, there are still a lot of U.S Made boutique frames that are subcontracted to US manufacturers, by Zen Bicycle Fabrications, for instance. (They make Turner frames, among other things.)


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## Dazed (Feb 7, 2004)

Rock said:


> Do you think that (e.g.) Knolly and Turner do not want to maximize profits, that they aren't looking for faster and cheaper ways to manufacture their product? Do you believe that they don't want to grow their company larger and challenge the big companies?


I like to think that small business owners at the very least are less cynical about their customers and have a more genuine interest in their actual products and what they are used for than some board of directors at a large holding company.


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## mtnbiker64 (Nov 17, 2004)

Rock, I see your point. I would much rather call a manufacturer and get someone in customer service who knows nothing but how to take an order. NOT! I've spoken to Dave Turner and have emailed back and forth regarding a build I'm doing. It means he actually cares about his bikes and who buys them. I do agree that I'm sure he is always looking for ways to improve his bikes and in the process being more profitable. But not at the point of just ignoring the end user.


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## V8Interceptor (Aug 24, 2014)

I bought a Trek because there's a Trek Bike Shop less than 1/4 mile away from my house. I was just getting into biking, and really needed help choosing the right bike, right fit, and pointers on technique. I went to several bike shops in my town, but the guys right down the street treated me like I was going to throw down $8k on a bike. I looked into a boutique brands for a bike, but quickly realized I really needed a good LBS to help me get started. I stop by this Trek Shop often, and the guys there are really cool, and don't care if I stop by just to shoot the breeze or get some pointers. I'm really impressed that they never trashed other bike brands or other bike shops. I feel loyal to this shop now, and if they switch brands or move their business across town, I will follow them.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I ride a Spec and am very happy with it. They make an excellent bike. I've also ridden Santa Cruz for a few seasons, and they too make a solid product. 

I'd love to snatch up a small-brand rig, such as a Lynskey, but I can't justify that dough.


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

i have an 09 Spesh sx/4x that is completely bombproof and a Last HerbAM "boutique" from germany. the last can run 3 different travel configurations, 145/165/175 , as well as 3 rear dropouts 135/142/150 w/73or83bb. i've had it set up for light trail as well as mini dh/park. it truly is boutique and overbuilt. so many cool brands from germany that are very well built and boutique...Last, Nicolai, Liteville. the specialized ride is every bit as great as my boutique brand. at the end of the day if your skill is enhanced and progressing by what you're on, chances are you have a great bike underneath ya...
me thinks

both purchased used for very low prices cuz 26aintboutique

or get a knolly!


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2015)

madduck said:


> time for a new ride...but don't we always need a new/another bike??? n+1 always.
> 
> i'm a weekend warrior at best who wants to continue to get better, but it's for fun and fitness, i'm not paying any bills or buying any food with my bike skills that's for sure.
> 
> ...


 Buy what rides best for you. My first race bike was a 1982 Colonago Record Mexico, man I loved that bike, wish I hadn't sold it, want to buy it back from whoever has it now..... If I were looking for a new race bike, that wouldn't be it. It would be cool to have that piece of cycling history, but coolness, uniquiness and funk don't translate into ride quality or speed. I really like Lynskey HTs and would buy one if money were less of an issue (for the sheer ride quality). Would it be "faster" than my Fisher Paragon? Probably not. If you're going for something out of the mainstream, go retro or repaint whatever you buy. For me, the ride means more than the name painted on the frame.


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## Brisk Eddie (Jun 23, 2014)

Remember that you're also buying service, not just the bike. 
How many shops are in your area? Pick the ones where you feel the most comfortable, are treated well, and that have a friendly, informed staff. What bikes do those shops sell? 
Work from there to narrow your choices. I stay away from snob-shops at all costs.


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## Dazed (Feb 7, 2004)

Good point. If you rely on your LBS for parts, wrenching and tips, it's best to find a good one, and get to know the guys there.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

And let them know that you appreciate their help by occasionally providing appropriate supliemental adult beverages (if applicable).


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## winchboy (May 2, 2006)

If you know enough and ride enough a frame up build is the way to go.
You can pick your parts and fit the cranks, seat post, handle bars, stem, ect to you. As well as take advantage of available drive train components and the many forks available. It's going to be more costly but the satisfaction of the build is part of the deal.
I built one of my bikes, and both sons bikes with them on the living room floor. A great experience many years ago.
I would recomend picking a Ventana frame to build up, custom fit is available and most important, It keeps 1 of my boys working!!


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

3 of my current 4 bikes I built from the frame up, with some stuff that I already had, and some new stuff that I picked up on sale. It certainly does make for a sorta 'custom' build when you do it yerself, and it's kind of fun, too. 

I picked up 2 Jamis frames on closeout from internet vendors. One is a Dragon HT, a Reynolds 853 main triangle, and the other was a Dakar XLT w/ a Swinger Air 3-way rear shock. Both of the cost me $400 apiece. A real stel, especially since I already had forks for both of 'em.

The Dakar became my first full-squish single speed, and I rode it on the coastal trails here almost exclusively for over a year. The Dragon is now my 'road' bike, with disc brakes and 700c road rims laced to XT disc hubs. It's a large frame, and with very sturdy wheels, it weighs 22 lb.s with a Niner carbon fork. 

They are both one-of-a-kind bikes, that's for sure.

Oh, yeah.....and just to make sure that the content of this post is 'rich', I gotta say, truthfully, that both frames were purchased from vendor ads I saw right here on emptybeer!


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

Old Ray said:


> Oh, yeah.....and just to make sure that the content of this post is 'rich', I gotta say, truthfully, that both frames were purchased from vendor ads I saw right here on emptybeer!


Geez Ray, what a kiss ass.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

Optimus said:


> Geez Ray, what a kiss ass.


Get with the program, Opti. This ain't the OC, and you know the 'eb' is _everywhere_!


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

Rich, smich, I don't need no stinking rich content.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I've owned and had lots of good times on bikes from big brands like Spec, DB, Jamis, Haro/Premium, Trek, Redline and Kona, boutique bikes from Litespeed, Turner, Intense and Sinister (including a couple FTW built frames that I would consider 1 of a kind) and a few locally built customs from 1-man shows put on by friends of mine. 

There're things to be said in favor of each 'approach' when choosing a bike. I do know that for many years when I rode off-the-shelf frames, I always did feel a twinge of "I want" whenever I got around a nice custom or unique ride. Kelley's and EWRs, Brooklyns, Spookies and Wojciks, Fats, Kleins...they all had me drooling at one point or another even while my bigger brand bikes were working out just fine, performance and support-wise. I find I actually had quicker support service with the bigger brands for the most part (not to say the smaller guys didn't also back their stuff up, but sometimes it just took longer to get warranty work, replacements, etc. Just the nature of the beast.)

At this point, I think I'm done with anything but custom for my main rides though. Gotta love having friends that can build bikes; makes it a lot more accessible. I'm also really lucky that the guy that'll probably be building the rest of my bikes is also somebody I've ridden and hung out with for a lot of years, and is awesome to work with, so I end up with something really unique. I'm not going to be riding the latest VPP design or anything, but from what I know of my own riding, trying to stay on the cutting edge of technology isn't really all that important .


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

No. It is a bike not a rocket ship. Nothing on it is that complicated. If you are interested in a warranty, be more concerned about your bike shop, rather than the actual bike company, as your LBS will most likely be the pain. When I have heard of people having issues with bikes like Santa Cruz or Specialized, it has always been the LBS causing the issue, not the manufacturer. 

The great thing about a bike like Turner is that you are treated like an adult. You call and you talk to someone that has most likely been with the company for a long time and will work with you directly. 

From a bike design point of view, most bikes are the same, from the smaller builders to the larger builders and most people buy a boutique bike for the brand.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

My Scott bike has Shimano, Rockshox, Xfusion, Race Face pedals, ISM saddle, a Giant dropper post....

A Trek or a Yeti or a Ibis or Turner Is gonna have Sram or Shimano or Rockshox, or Fox.....

Ok, so you spec any of the above mentioned frames the same they will be different.
One will be better for this or that. Another will be better for Him or Her.

Make just a tire swap on any of those frames and the bike will be different....

Everybody is trying to make a buck,, good deal, Because of all this I bet It's pretty hard to find a bad bike.
Competition is good, keeps the lesser bikes cheap and easy to order...

It's all good...

The thing I like most about my Scott Spark,,,the cool looking red and black paint job


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## Velorangutan (Aug 28, 2012)

It's always fun to build your own bike from scratch. Most major brands will use cheaper parts on the less visible components to get the price point down.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

saharmohamedali said:


> Tough though to spec a new bike with with Easton Havocs, e*thirteen LG1+ hubs, Hope V4 brakes, leather WTB Vigo saddle, with a Pike and CCDBair dialed for your weight.


That's why I build, exactly what I want, no compromises. In the long run also more cost effective than buying a compromise and upgrading, not much resale value in low end/mid range components.


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## cerebroside (Jun 25, 2011)

Optimus said:


> That's why I build, exactly what I want, no compromises. In the long run also more cost effective than buying a compromise and upgrading, not much resale value in low end/mid range components.


Post you quoted is a spam post, simply copying another post early in the thread (#18).
See spam link in the signature.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

cerebroside said:


> Post you quoted is a spam post, simply copying another post early in the thread (#18).
> See spam link in the signature.


Oops. The nasty fuks are getting sneakier. Although, if they were closer to Phoenix I may have had some work for them, got bacon grease splattered all over from breakfast this morning.


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