# Bike Inferiority Complex



## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

I think I may have screwed up. I ordered a Windsor Cliff 4900 from Bikes Direct. It hasn't even arrived yet, and I'm thinking that I'll have inferiority complex against the Treks, Giants, Fujis, etc, etc.

Is this bike inferior?


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## jlkvt (May 16, 2010)

If it fits you and your purpose....get out there and ride it. Who cares what other people think/are riding? Have fun


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## marpilli (Feb 8, 2011)

jlkvt said:


> If it fits you and your purpose....get out there and ride it. Who cares what other people think/are riding? Have fun


Exactly! I've seen all kinds of bikes out on the trails. As long as the rider is happy with the bike, then pedal and smile. 

If you encounter any bike snobbery out there, you probably wouldn't want to hang with those guys anyway. Ya know?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

It goes both ways. I try not to be judgmental, I live in a fairly wealthy area, my riding buddy and I are amazed when we see people on $5000 plus bike that will ride around a 2 inch log in the trail.

When I got back into mountain biking, I started with a 2 for $300 special from Performance. Once I was hooked and knew I'd use it, then I stepped up to my first $1000 - $1500 hardtail and after a year on that I bought a year end special for 2k


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

If you wanna impress people, ride better than them. I've been beat by people riding much less bike.


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## fromthecoast (Aug 22, 2006)

A good thing about a less expensive bike for me is that I am more likely to ride the hell out of it without worrying too much about scratching or otherwise tearing it up. I'm not abusive to the bike, but I want to be able to beat on it. Personally I would have a hard time spending 2k on a bike and then a little more changing little things like handlebars etc, and then riding the hell out of it.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

Remember...... "A good trick is way more a product of the magician than it is the wand"

It may not be the bike of your dreams but it fits your budget and as long as YOU are happy and safe riding it nothing else matters. Enjoy!


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## ARCHAIC (Jun 4, 2011)

firemark said:


> Is this bike inferior?


compared to much more exensive bikes...yes it is inferior
compared to bikes in the same price range....no

dont worry about others judging youor your bike & enjoy the ride


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

I remember a ride last year, when the most skilled guy to show up was riding...

...

...


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm debating on returning the bd bike on arrival.

I would rather spend my $ locally, either in a LBS in Huntsville or pick up used bikes, and I'm a tad superficial...


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## jeffgre_6163 (Jan 23, 2010)

firemark said:


> I'm debating on returning the bd bike on arrival.
> 
> I would rather spend my $ locally, either in a LBS in Huntsville or pick up used bikes, and I'm a tad superficial...


Personal pride in your ride is important - I get a lot of enjoyment out of owning nice, premium bikes.
It helps me keep motivated to keep riding, ensure maintenance is up to scratch and the bikes are kept clean - It takes a strong willed person to maintain a bike [or anthing mechanical] that they dont really like for *whatever* reason.

My main ride used to be a Mongoose Teocali Super - 6 inch DS all mountain rig.
This is a top spec bike in any ones terms worth around $3200.00, it rode great but I could never get over the fact that it was a Mongoose - and all that goes with the "Wallygoose" term.
People who know bikes knew it was top spec but those that were unfamilar with Mongoose's premium range used to sneer at it.
I hated it
And I know that at 47 with 20 years MTB experience I should be more secure and not give a rats arse over what anybody thinks but the fact was I did hate it simply because it said mongoose on the frame.
If you can afford it, buy the bike that makes you happy, not just to ride it but also to own and show it off.


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

firemark said:


> I'm debating on returning the bd bike on arrival.
> 
> I would rather spend my $ locally, either in a LBS in Huntsville or pick up used bikes, and I'm a tad superficial...


Personally I would call that very superficial BUTTTTTTT I still have to agree with jeff that if you don't like your bike, you are much less likely to ride your bike. And an unused bike sitting in your garage collecting dust is a very sad bike. So at the end of the day only YOU can tell you what to do. Just be aware that if you send the BD bike back you are probably going to be stuck with with pretty hefty shipping charges so you really have to add that to the cost of the next bike.:skep:


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I've run into a few people on trails and at races on BD bikes. Their opinions seem to range from "one aluminum hardtail is much like another" to seriously stoked on their gear. A couple guys I bumped into several weeks ago had bought them to replace some crappy department store bikes, and were starting to explore one of the singletracks I ride a lot. One of my teammates has one of the titanium ones.

There are some things that irritate me about bikesdirect. But at the end of the day, they're getting more capable gear out to people at a lower price. I guess I don't want to see the major companies destroyed. But more than that, I like to see people having fun, and BD is addressing a need the majors can't or won't.


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## getagrip (Mar 26, 2008)

You could always find a cheap Trek, Specialized, Giant, or something else on Craigslist, then swap out the parts. But as others have eluded to, the most important thing is how much you like and enjoy riding the bike. If it arrives and you don't like they way it feels, send it back. But if you like it, ride the heck out of it and don't look back!


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## zombie food (Jul 6, 2011)

i got my ass handed to me by a buddy that rode an old diamondback that was rusted and full of cobb webs that he found in his garage. just go out there and ride it like a damn dog is chasing you.


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## unclebowb (Jun 28, 2011)

*Love your ride Ride your Love*

My newest bike is a 94 S-Works and a 94 Hard Rock and a 94 SuperV. The old man in my stable is an 88 BMX Mongoose. I'm not as fast as most of the guys I ride with, but I nearly ALWAYS finish ahead of new stuff that break something _expensive_ along the way. I LIKE my bikes, and they like me. I'm pretty sure they appreciate being brought back from the junk pile. Bottom line: I totally agree that if you like your bike (even if it has three or four wheels) that's all that matters.:thumbsup:


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## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

This is a nice bike I don't understand don't worry. If you want a good name brand bike spend more money because you are just paying for the name. I looked at the parts list on the windsor and for the money its great!! If you send it back and get a Trek or something for the same price you will get the road \ children version of the bike mtb. If you are so worried about what people will think you will need to pony up and get something like this. Look bro the bike is fine to start don't worry if you will love the sport and u are sure you will love the sport when the bike comes send it back and drop 2000 to 3000 bucks on a new one its really the only way you will be happy.

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/anthem.x.29er/7508/44088/


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I suffer from this. I love riding demo bikes and throwing a leg over other plps bikes. It helped me find that I like neutral balance geo, as opposed to stable or aggressive geo, and find that Trek/GF seems to nail this type of feel that I like. Also, I like Trek's color schemes for their higher end stuff (looks matter).

I think the only way to remedy this is to just get a bike that you really like. There always bikes that come out to beat it in a few aspects, but I always go back to the balanced ride for my go-to bike. I'd get a second bike if I wanted something that was specialized to a certain type of riding I find myself really enjoying, but my current ride wasn't good at.

Right now, it's the Yeti SB-66 that's on my mind, but news of a carbon version is holding me back. That and the '12 XT grouppo. They're sort of delaying sales [from me] by making big improvements year by year; next year I'd probably say, I'll wait for a deal on an used one with those components, to keep me on my current bikes.

I don't think you'd be happy with the Moto if you're already having doubts now. If you're serious about mtn biking, you can still ride it and then get a feel of what you want for your next purchase. I went with a Moto as one of my earlier bikes when I started mtn biking seriously, then that led to what was, ultimately, my favorite and my current go-to bike, my Gary Fisher Superfly 100. I got an long travel AM bike to compliment it now too. I still have the Moto, but I think I should sell it or convert it into a single speed or something. 2-3 bikes is more than enough for me.

I do see people really skilled on some crappy bikes, but I just can't go back them when I have such a nice one. To me, it's worth it. I doubt anyone finds their perfect dream bike with their first purchase, so don't sweat it and expect to buy more and give a budding mtn biker enjoy your previous bikes with a good deal that helps both of you.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Bike-wise, there are few things cooler than a rider on a crappy bike showing mad skills. Conversely, having a tricked out uber expensive bike with all the body gear and then stopping to get over a 4" log across the trail is not cool. What matters is what you can do - any fool can buy a bike. It takes skill to ride it well, though.


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## indianadave (Apr 27, 2010)

Dude. Get over it. I ride a 98 Trek 7000 that was given to me. I put some money into it to get it reideable and reliable (maybe $400 total). I have a blast on it, and can't seem to justify spending money on something newer, faster, lighter or whatever. I ride with guys who have brand new $1500+ bikes, and hang with them everywhere they go. I did strip and repaint it solid black, so it suprises most others when they learn what it actually is.
Funny thing is, I've been on a lot of rides where others have broken something on their bikes, yet it's never been me.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

I have emailed bd this morning to inform that I do not want the bike. I know that I'll pay for my mistake. I won't make it again. I'll just take my old Trek 820 to the LBS for a tuneup, and ride it whilst looking for local bikes for the family.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Well, it's good that you're not getting a bike you're not comfortable with.

The Trek 820 is not a lot of bike, especially an older one. What kind of riding do you do? What kind of riding do you want to do? Sometimes, spending some money on one or two choice new components can go a long way toward freshening up older bikes, but when the frame is Hi-ten steel and the parts are as far behind current standards as the build on even a current 820, it's difficult to update in an intelligent and cost-effective way.


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## Stevuke (Nov 14, 2010)

firemark said:


> I think I may have screwed up. I ordered a Windsor Cliff 4900 from Bikes Direct. It hasn't even arrived yet, and I'm thinking that I'll have inferiority complex against the Treks, Giants, Fujis, etc, etc.
> 
> Is this bike inferior?


Friend.. when I first started I was self conscious about my bike... for like two seconds.

once you get out there you're going to be puffing so hard you wont even remember your own name.. let a lone the name of your bike.

There are plenty of newbies on some hot $8,000 bikes (and good for them and God bless),... and there are plenty of truly talented and skilled riders on used bikes that they got for maybe a few hundered bucks. No one is impressed by a bike,.. they're impressed by skills. And those are free 

I actually really admire people who have crap bikes but REALLY know what they're doing.._that _is class.

Just ride and work hard and this is the most amazing sport .. on any bike!


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

Hmmm. I have a lead on a Trek 4500, ridden 4-5 times, with claimed "extras" including a never worn Trek helmet. The seller is in my height range, too. $300....


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## Stevuke (Nov 14, 2010)

Gasp4Air said it!! Be that guy!! 

Also - never upgrade until you have a "problem"... this sport isn't about compoenents. this sport is about the woods, rocks, trees and logs.. those are all free.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

firemark said:


> Hmmm. I have a lead on a Trek 4500, ridden 4-5 times, with claimed "extras" including a never worn Trek helmet. The seller is in my height range, too. $300....


Trek 4500s have varied. The current-year model actually looks pretty good. What year is the one you're considering?

People get sold the wrong size bike all the time. Get an actual size for the bike, not just that you and the seller are both between 5 and 6 feet tall. If it's close to you, go ride it and see what you think.

You're likely to still have some inferiority complex stuff about a 3- or 4-series Trek, if you're into comparing bikes with other people. Get over it - there's always someone who can throw more money at their gear. Money doesn't buy skills, legs or lungs.


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## wilonpill (Aug 19, 2009)

The funny thing is it stops mattering as much after you've ridden for a while. For instance, there is a trail builder in the DFW area that owns a full carbon, full suspension, geared, 26er, but he always rides his steel, rigid, 29er, single speed. Who cares what people think as long as you enjoy your bike.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Trek 4500s have varied. The current-year model actually looks pretty good. What year is the one you're considering?
> 
> People get sold the wrong size bike all the time. Get an actual size for the bike, not just that you and the seller are both between 5 and 6 feet tall. If it's close to you, go ride it and see what you think.
> 
> You're likely to still have some inferiority complex stuff about a 3- or 4-series Trek, if you're into comparing bikes with other people. Get over it - there's always someone who can throw more money at their gear. Money doesn't buy skills, legs or lungs.


It was bought a couple of years ago.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

If $300 is a lot of money for you (it is for me) you need to get specifics. A couple of years ago, especially with the addition of the usual Craig's List inaccuracies, can be a lot. And with something like the 4500, it could mean the difference between discs and Vs. You could also try to get a build list, although if the seller doesn't know how big the bike is or when he bought it, that seems a little unlikely.

If you get a photo, you can often date a bike from bikepedia.com or Trek's archive. Most companies change the paint every year.


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## austanian (Jun 15, 2011)

If you are being srs mark you need to man the fu** up. You bought a bike that has amazing components for the price. You would have to drop 800 plus to get the same stuff you bought for 439... That is what buying online can do for you. IF the bike doesn't fit by all means send it back. IF you are getting intimidated because your bike doesn't say specialized... stop being such a little girl.


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## pointerDixie214 (Feb 10, 2009)

austanian said:


> If you are being srs mark you need to man the fu** up. You bought a bike that has amazing components for the price. You would have to drop 800 plus to get the same stuff you bought for 439... That is what buying online can do for you. IF the bike doesn't fit by all means send it back. IF you are getting intimidated because your bike doesn't say specialized... stop being such a little girl.


x2

And I agree it is way cooler to rock it on a cheaper bike than to suck on an expensive bike.

Hell, I would buy the Winsor, ride it for a while (strip the decals if you must), and then use the components to build up a better frame. But that Winsor is a better bike than the 3-4 year old Trek 4500 or 4700 or whatever.


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## BaeckerX1 (Oct 19, 2007)

Hey if you'll ride it, that's all that matters. Though I do disagree that one aluminum hardtail is much like another. My friend/co-worker bought one of those Performance brand Access XCL 29ers and one of my bikes is a Trek X-Caliber 29er. His is a flexy mess. You can feel it just by sitting on it and rocking the bars back and forth. It shakes like a wet noodle. My Trek is stiff as hell and I'd feel much more confident bombing it down technical trails. Luckily he put slicks on it only uses it for commuting to work on bike paths. Then again, I'm very meticulous and I even had to upgrade the wheels and bar/stem on the X-Cal right after I got it. 

Still, get what you can afford now, get it, ride the hell out of it, and then upgrade it later. The problem is if you really get into the sport, you'll probably be jonesing for another bike fast. It's addicting. I've got 5 bikes now, though one of them is a road bike. I'm stuck trying to sell 1 or 2 of them. You'll probably end up saving money in the long run if you just save up and buy the bike you want now. No regrets right?


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

I ride a BD Motobecane, it goes with my t-shirt, shorts and clearance helmet. :thumbsup:


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

I have sent almost a half dozen emails to bd regarding the cancellation, with 1 canned response.

Customer service, my ass.


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## DiRt DeViL (Dec 24, 2003)

What is the problem, that someone else will have a better bike? That happens to all of us all the time. People assume that if you have an expensive bike you're a great rider or even a racer but that's not always how it goes.

Enjoy what you can afford and ride it like you stole it, save money and when it dies you'll have enough saved to get a better one.


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

firemark said:


> I have sent almost a half dozen emails to bd regarding the cancellation, with 1 canned response.
> 
> Customer service, my ass.


Now your'e looking for excuses to justify your bad decision! Why send half a dozen messages, one should suffice. They are a huge E-tailer, their reply time is not instant. You haven't given them 12 hours yet, but felt it neccesary to send multiple messages and you accuse them on bad customer service? Bottom line is you are going to end up with a significantly worse bike, except for that "wonderful" Trek logo. Hope its worth it!


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

DiRt DeViL said:


> What is the problem, that someone else will have a better bike? That happens to all of us all the time. People assume that if you have an expensive bike you're a great rider or even a racer but that's not always how it goes.
> 
> Enjoy what you can afford and ride it like you stole it, save money and when it dies you'll have enough saved to get a better one.


No its not about a better bike, the Windsor is a MUCH better bike than a Trek 4500. Its about a "label", some bogus image that any Trek is better than a Windsor. Its about pure vanity, bottom line.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Crash Test Dumby said:


> No its not about a better bike, the Windsor is a MUCH better bike than a Trek 4500. Its about a "label", some bogus image that any Trek is better than a Windsor. Its about pure vanity, bottom line.


What's a "Dumby"?


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## DiRt DeViL (Dec 24, 2003)

Crash Test Dumby said:


> No its not about a better bike, the Windsor is a MUCH better bike than a Trek 4500. Its about a "label", some bogus image that any Trek is better than a Windsor. Its about pure vanity, bottom line.


That's dumb, the label is irrelevant.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

Well, no answer by the end of business today, and it's slated to here tomorrow per UPS. I guess I'll wait until then and decide. I took another look at the specs, and the parts look like recommended stuff. At $429 plus $65 for LBS assembly/tune, I'm in it for over $500. I guess I'm worried if it's worth that much $.

ETA: Trailhead in Huntsville looks like they charge $50 for assembly, so I'm at $479. 

But, Trailhead also deals in Specialized, and they list the Hardrock Disc at $520. I think I may make a trip Friday there, look and ask questions, and either decide to assemble the Cliff, or go another route.


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## Stevuke (Nov 14, 2010)

I just went online and checked out the specs.. that's a very cheap price for a very decent bike. That bike is a nice frame with solid components.. and highly upgradable. Thick tubing, aluminum frame.. what's not to like?

Just chill out and ride. Once you're out on the trail you'll be having so much fun you'll realize how silly it was to worry about this.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Crash Test Dumby said:


> No its not about a better bike, the Windsor is a MUCH better bike than a Trek 4500. Its about a "label", some bogus image that any Trek is better than a Windsor. Its about pure vanity, bottom line.


The Windsor is not an $1,100 bike and you know it, the Windsor Cliff 4900 is a $429 bike. You always get what you pay for. Whether that's in warranty support or frame quality, maybe a bit of both, there's a reason the Windsor is not a "MUCH" better bike than the Trek is. Misleading someone into thinking they've made a horrible choice isn't very helpful.

Fact is, that Trek may not have the same level of parts attached to it but you can go down to the store you got it from, talk to real people, and get help on what has gone wrong. Plus you have someone fit you on the bike in the first place, offer free tune ups usually, point you in the right direction on trails to ride, and be there to guide you to make sure you're not wasting your money on some "limited time deal" on a bike that is highly overvalued on the internet.

Yes you pay for the label, yes you pay for their marketing, and guess what? Sometimes that's worth what you pay.


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## Koppuh Klyde (Jul 13, 2010)

Thing is, you can ride the Cliff for a while then buy a frame off C-list once you "outgrow" the it. Many ppl seem to be happy w/ the BD bikes. I like having an entry level bike to "learn from my mistakes" on. I could only imagine what Id do to that RIP9 that I actually feel like I dont deserve. Good luck and let us know what happens.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> The Windsor is not an $1,100 bike and you know it, the Windsor Cliff 4900 is a $429 bike. You always get what you pay for. Whether that's in warranty support or frame quality, maybe a bit of both, there's a reason the Windsor is not a "MUCH" better bike than the Trek is. Misleading someone into thinking they've made a horrible choice isn't very helpful.
> 
> Fact is, that Trek may not have the same level of parts attached to it but you can go down to the store you got it from, talk to real people, and get help on what has gone wrong. Plus you have someone fit you on the bike in the first place, offer free tune ups usually, point you in the right direction on trails to ride, and be there to guide you to make sure you're not wasting your money on some "limited time deal" on a bike that is highly overvalued on the internet.
> 
> Yes you pay for the label, yes you pay for their marketing, and guess what? Sometimes that's worth what you pay.


And, this is another reason I'm debating the bd bike. Customer service makes the product. It's why I have an iMac instead of a HP or Dell.

Also, what kind of engineering goes into the bd bikes? I'm sure Trek, Specialized, Fuji, etc, have in-house engineering folks.


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## austanian (Jun 15, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> The Windsor is not an $1,100 bike and you know it, the Windsor Cliff 4900 is a $429 bike. You always get what you pay for. Whether that's in warranty support or frame quality, maybe a bit of both, there's a reason the Windsor is not a "MUCH" better bike than the Trek is. Misleading someone into thinking they've made a horrible choice isn't very helpful.
> 
> Fact is, that Trek may not have the same level of parts attached to it but you can go down to the store you got it from, talk to real people, and get help on what has gone wrong. Plus you have someone fit you on the bike in the first place, offer free tune ups usually, point you in the right direction on trails to ride, and be there to guide you to make sure you're not wasting your money on some "limited time deal" on a bike that is highly overvalued on the internet.
> 
> Yes you pay for the label, yes you pay for their marketing, and guess what? Sometimes that's worth what you pay.


No one said it was an 1100 dollar bike (Besides bikes direct). That is the price that it would cost to buy that bike at an LBS which is about right to be honest. Of course that is assuming LBS service, Name Recognition, and Initial set up is worth nothing (which is wrong). The Windsor is a step up in every component on the 4500 which retails for 800 new and several levels up from the 4300 which is 570. The Rockhopper doesn't have a bike with better components till you spend 1100 and even then some parts are still better on the Windsor. Do you really think LBS service is worth the 670 dollars to get a better bike. I value LBS service to be worth about 250 to me. (Set up + Years tune ups+ name brand better resell value). So IMO the Windsor is about a 850 dollar value. Do you really think all of the pros of a LBS shop is worth 670 dollars? Also those pros only exist if you buy new...


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> The Windsor is not an $1,100 bike and you know it, the Windsor Cliff 4900 is a $429 bike. You always get what you pay for. Whether that's in warranty support or frame quality, maybe a bit of both, there's a reason the Windsor is not a "MUCH" better bike than the Trek is. Misleading someone into thinking they've made a horrible choice isn't very helpful.
> 
> Fact is, that Trek may not have the same level of parts attached to it but you can go down to the store you got it from, talk to real people, and get help on what has gone wrong. Plus you have someone fit you on the bike in the first place, offer free tune ups usually, point you in the right direction on trails to ride, and be there to guide you to make sure you're not wasting your money on some "limited time deal" on a bike that is highly overvalued on the internet.
> 
> Yes you pay for the label, yes you pay for their marketing, and guess what? Sometimes that's worth what you pay.


I NEVER said it was an $1100 bike. And if you look back to the OPs first thread myself and others carefully covered the pluses and minuses of buying online in great depth with him. I do not by any means think everybody should buy from BD, but the OP originally said he was comfortable with assembly and such. Now he wants to get superficial about the label on the frame (he said it, not me) and use excuses about BDs customer service. If you want to consider my advice "bad" so be it, but if you read all my posts on the subject of LBS versus onlline you might change your tune.


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## Stevuke (Nov 14, 2010)

For what it's worth, I had never mountained biked before and I bought a bike on ebay.

Now I know that I was seriously rolling the dice,.. BUT I worked out, and one bike later I love this bike.

It's a risk for a noob.. BUT, you can strike gold! (I also had no idea how to assemble a bike... my initial assembly was dangerously flawed... but I learned quick enough.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Crash Test Dumby said:


> I NEVER said it was an $1100 bike. And if you look back to the OPs first thread myself and others carefully covered the pluses and minuses of buying online in great depth with him. I do not by any means think everybody should buy from BD, but the OP originally said he was comfortable with assembly and such. Now he wants to get superficial about the label on the frame (he said it, not me) and use excuses about BDs customer service. If you want to consider my advice "bad" so be it, but if you read all my posts on the subject of LBS versus onlline you might change your tune.


I didn't claim you said it was an $1,100 bike but it's certainly not the bike that BD is claiming it to be. That's all. The OP also said he wanted to buy local but everyone ignored that point too. I guess I don't think it is a fair comparison to say the Windsor was a "much better bike" because the playing field between BD and one of the major manufacturers is not a level one. There's more to a buying and owning a bike than getting fancier parts on it, label or not.


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> I didn't claim you said it was an $1,100 bike but it's certainly not the bike that BD is claiming it to be. That's all. The OP also said he wanted to buy local but everyone ignored that point too. I guess I don't think it is a fair comparison to say the Windsor was a "much better bike" because the playing field between BD and one of the major manufacturers is not a level one. There's more to a buying and owning a bike than getting fancier parts on it, label or not.


If he wants to buy local then fine, pay the shipping penalty and buy whatever. My issue is he started ripping on BDs customer service when he sent tons of emails in just a few hours and didn't get the reply he wanted. Don't get an attitude towards BD when yhou are the one who pulled a 180 and changed your mind after the bike already shipped.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Crash Test Dumby said:


> If he wants to buy local then fine, pay the shipping penalty and buy whatever. My issue is he started ripping on BDs customer service when he sent tons of emails in just a few hours and didn't get the reply he wanted. Don't get an attitude towards BD when yhou are the one who pulled a 180 and changed your mind after the bike already shipped.


Fair enough, the thread started because the OP was unsure of their purchase. Probably should have asked these questions in the first place.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

parktool.com is an excellent resource for almost all mechanical questions on a bike. I don't think the Cliff 4900 has anything high-end enough not to be on parktool.com. 

Follow their new bike assembly check list. Spend the money on tools. Ride the bike, and have fun with it. I think there are some major flaws in the idea of transferring to a new frame, but it took me about nine years to decide I wanted to do that, so if it's something you decide you need to do one or two seasons down the road, it'll be easier.


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

AZ.MTNS said:


> What's a "Dumby"?


Gumby's "special" cousin.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

Shipment halted before arrival, refund on the way minus shipping.

I'm going to the LBS (Trailhead) in Huntsville Friday to look and learn, and, maybe buy.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Nobody cares.


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

AZ.MTNS said:


> What's a "Dumby"?


Believe it or not, the proper spelling was taken so I had to improvise. Surprised your the first one to point out the interesting spelling!


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

Thanks to all who gave helpful advice, and screw the wisecracking ****** bags.


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## austanian (Jun 15, 2011)

Like we care what you think. We were here to help you. You ended up trading a good product for an inferior one all because of the logo on the side. There are many benefits to purchasing at an LBS, but you weren't even worried about that. In the end you traded in a bike that may have been perfect, but you didn't even put it together and ride it. You are a brand whore of the worst type. 

Had you came in going this bike doesn't fit i am sending it back and going to a lbs. You would have had 100% helpful comments.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

austanian said:


> Like we care what you think. We were here to help you.


Maybe you are.  I tend to procrastinate a lot, and find myself staring at the internet. Hopefully sometimes I can use that wasted time to help people have more fun with riding.

Agree with the rest of the post, btw. If bikes said the name of the manufacturer and not the name of the brand, tons of us would be riding "Kinesis," from people on branded bikes to people on BD bikes.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

FWIW, I didn't buy the Trek 4500 either, based on advice here.

Again, thanks for the advice, and apologies if I offended anyone.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

firemark said:


> FWIW, I didn't buy the Trek 4500 either, based on advice here.
> 
> Again, thanks for the advice, and apologies if I offended anyone.


What did you get?


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

zebrahum said:


> What did you get?


Nothing, yet. I still have the Trek 820 that my son and I enjoy. I'm looking and being patient. I do have a lead on a Cannondale Caffeine F3, though.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

Are there 13 year old kids here tagging the thread anonymously, or are they simply internet ********s?


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## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

firemark said:


> Are there 13 year old kids here tagging the thread anonymously, or are they simply internet ********s?


I think we have lots of kids lol its a big country.


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## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

Sorry world


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## GOTA (Apr 21, 2011)

Bottom line is you should get whatever bike you're going to enjoy riding. The reasons really don't matter. Lots of people feel better when they save money. Lots of people like to buy name brand products. Do whatever is best for you and others don't like it then too bad.


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## ldollard (Jul 13, 2011)

firemark said:


> I'm debating on returning the bd bike on arrival.
> 
> I would rather spend my $ locally, either in a LBS in Huntsville or pick up used bikes, and I'm a tad superficial...


love the honesty.... own it dude.


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## Adam_B. (Apr 7, 2011)

GOTA said:


> Bottom line is you should get whatever bike you're going to enjoy riding. The reasons really don't matter. Lots of people feel better when they save money. Lots of people like to buy name brand products. Do whatever is best for you and others don't like it then too bad.


I like to save money buying name brand products:thumbsup:


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## ckropp (Jun 20, 2007)

TwoTone said:


> It goes both ways. I try not to be judgmental, I live in a fairly wealthy area, my riding buddy and I are amazed when we see people on $5000 plus bike that will ride around a 2 inch log in the trail.
> 
> When I got back into mountain biking, I started with a 2 for $300 special from Performance. Once I was hooked and knew I'd use it, then I stepped up to my first $1000 - $1500 hardtail and after a year on that I bought a year end special for 2k


Well you've already spent about 3800. Looks like you would have been happier with a nice bike from the start.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

ckropp said:


> Well you've already spent about 3800. Looks like you would have been happier with a nice bike from the start.


Starter bikes, with some wide slick tires make for great a commuter, child trailer towing, get to a bike path with family, throw at the back of your car for a road trip etc. spare. Using your $4K bike for all that stuff is a waste of money and a thief magnet. And you have a spare when your fancy one breaks down. Not a waste of money by any stretch.

If it is a hardtail, you can also convert it to a single speed, for a change of pace in training.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

jpeters said:


> Sorry world


Forgot about the *Germany* thing, didn't you?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

GOTA said:


> Bottom line is you should get whatever bike you're going to enjoy riding. The reasons really don't matter. Lots of people feel better when they save money. Lots of people like to buy name brand products. Do whatever is best for you and others don't like it then too bad.


Do both, buy name brand used :thumbsup:


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

ckropp said:


> Well you've already spent about 3800. Looks like you would have been happier with a nice bike from the start.


I don't know about other people, but no way I'd drop 2k plus into something I wasn't sure I'd get into.

BTW I've spent a lot more than $3800. Wife is riding a custom built Trek Fuel, no women specific bikes back then. Plus the kids bikes.


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## osmarandsara (Jun 26, 2006)

You should have kept the Windsor, removed all the labels, and then when someone on the trail asked you ?'s about the bike you could have said 

"Its a custom-made Titanium-Zirconium Alloy prototype from an obscure frame manufacturer in Lithuania, only three were made and I got one of them....." ; )


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

osmarandsara said:


> You should have kept the Windsor, removed all the labels, and then when someone on the trail asked you ?'s about the bike you could have said
> 
> "Its a custom-made Ti Alloy prototype from an obscure frame manufacturer in Lithuania, only three were made and I got one of them....." ; )


I have removed most of my stickers from bikesdirect's Fly titanium frame - solely for appearance reason, Ritchey's logos and stickers from Stan's rims also got removed. My Transition TransAm frame also rolls without logos.

Some folks have hard time believing, upon inspecting the frame that it came from a discount online retailer. Its a very nice frame.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

Yep, I should have kept it. The components on it are better than any of the brand names in the $500-600 range. I should have listened.


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## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Forgot about the *Germany* thing, didn't you?


Yeah I forgot we have people from all over the wold on the forum. And yes currently I live in Germany but I am an American

PS. America is the best :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2011)

Can you try re-buying it?


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## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

firemark said:


> Yep, I should have kept it. The components on it are better than any of the brand names in the $500-600 range. I should have listened.


Bro :madman: ug why did you not listen now you just wasted 30 bucks or whatever shipping is. Oh well we all have done stupid things so you need to try and get the bike back or get another one. You are wasting precious riding time.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

icalebkim said:


> Can you try re-buying it?


Awesome. This is turning into the thread that keeps on giving.


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## austanian (Jun 15, 2011)

We tried to warn you brah. You should have just looked at the online websites. I mean do you really wanna spend 500 on a 3500 all to get altus level components. To make matters worse I went to the shop yesterday and saw the junk they have on the 820 and the skye. Tourney level components.... REALLY. Those are professionally set up walmart bikes... IMO bike shops should never go below acera.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

austanian said:


> We tried to warn you brah. You should have just looked at the online websites. I mean do you really wanna spend 500 on a 3500 all to get altus level components. To make matters worse I went to the shop yesterday and saw the junk they have on the 820 and the skye. Tourney level components.... REALLY. Those are professionally set up walmart bikes... IMO bike shops should never go below acera.


TRUTH.

My fault, my mistake.


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## hardwarz (Jun 12, 2009)

austanian said:


> We tried to warn you brah. You should have just looked at the online websites. I mean do you really wanna spend 500 on a 3500 all to get altus level components. To make matters worse I went to the shop yesterday and saw the junk they have on the 820 and the skye. Tourney level components.... REALLY. Those are professionally set up walmart bikes... IMO bike shops should never go below acera.


I'm moving all my bikes to X.7 or SLX components as a minimum, even my pavement/path bikes.


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## Adam_B. (Apr 7, 2011)

Why don't you just suck it up and get the BD bike again? It's painfully obvious that the components on that bike far exceed any bike you'll get at any LBS for that price range. Who gives a $hit what name is on the side of the frame.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

mtbnoobadam said:


> Why don't you just suck it up and get the BD bike again? It's painfully obvious that the components on that bike far exceed any bike you'll get at any LBS for that price range. Who gives a $hit what name is on the side of the frame.


/\ This, cut your losses, just be sure it's going to fit. + rep.


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## S_Trek (May 3, 2010)

Keep your 820 and take your son to Disney World:thumbsup:

YOU should care less of what others think about what you ride!


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

S_Trek said:


> Keep your 820 and take your son to Disney World:thumbsup:
> 
> YOU should care less of what others think about what you ride!


Dude, read the entire thread, or all 3 of his threads. He is keeping the 820 but there are 4 members of his family and only one 820. The mechanics of a family of 4 going on a family ride with only 1 bike aren't pretty.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

Bought this for $499, 18" Frame.

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_522743_-1_202650_10000_202616


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## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

The windsor is not much better cool!!


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## Adam_B. (Apr 7, 2011)

Nothing like paying more $ for less bike  oh well as long you're happy with it. Now stop debating and get out and ride dammit


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## S_Trek (May 3, 2010)

Crash Test Dumby said:


> Dude, read the entire thread, or all 3 of his threads. He is keeping the 820 but there are 4 members of his family and only one 820. The mechanics of a family of 4 going on a family ride with only 1 bike aren't pretty.


& 1.5-2 bikes makes it all good? Do the math.


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

firemark said:


> Bought this for $499, 18" Frame.
> 
> http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_522743_-1_202650_10000_202616


Pretty nice bike IMHO, but I am 5'9" riding the 18" Diamondback and its a little big for me. At your height its gonna be a little big, hope it works ok for you. By they way, the Gravity 29point1 is a lot more bike for less money.


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

Crash Test Dumby said:


> Pretty nice bike IMHO, but I am 5'9" riding the 18" Diamondback and its a little big for me. At your height its gonna be a little big, hope it works ok for you. By they way, the Gravity 29point1 is a lot more bike for less money.


Arrgghh. Tell me more about your experience with the DB, please.

Would you do it again? Pros vs cons?


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## markaitch (Feb 17, 2010)

firemark...
by now you have got to be suffering from information overload.
be careful who you listen to here, some do not know what they are talking about. advice is one thing but you keep letting them try to make your mind up for you.
enjoy your new bike & good luck...you need it!


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## firemark (Jul 4, 2011)

markaitch said:


> firemark...
> by now you have got to be suffering from information overload.
> be careful who you listen to here, more than a few do not know what they are talking about. advice is one thing but you keep letting them try to make your mind up for you.
> enjoy your new bike & good luck...you need it!


 I almost feel like I should have never asked questions, but I was blind in the wilderness about bikes, and looking for a filler for alcohol abstinence.


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

firemark said:


> Arrgghh. Tell me more about your experience with the DB, please.
> 
> Would you do it again? Pros vs cons?


Hey, I LOVE my Diamondback. It is a great value, solid components per dollar. But an 18" framed 29er is intended for people 5'9" to 6'1" tall or something like that. Unless you are very long legged you will not be able to stand over the bike at all. When I stand flat footed on mine there is niticeable contact between the bike and the jewels. And if you are long legged enough to stand over the bike then your torso would have to be very short, in which case the reach would be too long and you will be leaning way too far forward to reach the bars.

Good luck, hope this all works out for you somehow.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

It's more about the rider than anything. I pass plenty of people on better bikes.


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## Steeljaws (May 2, 2010)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Maybe you are.  I tend to procrastinate a lot, and find myself staring at the internet. Hopefully sometimes I can use that wasted time to help people have more fun with riding.
> 
> *Agree with the rest of the post, btw. If bikes said the name of the manufacturer and not the name of the brand, tons of us would be riding "Kinesis," from people on branded bikes to people on BD bikes*.


If most here knew that was really the case, there would be mass suicide...take off the decal(s) and it could be any overpriced big name LBS bike.


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## Crash Test Dumby (May 3, 2011)

Steeljaws said:


> If most here knew that was really the case, there would be mass suicide...take off the decal(s) and it could be any overpriced big name LBS bike.


Being picky here, but Kinesis only makes the frames. The assembly of most of the bikes is done by Giant manufacturing from what I understand.

"So wait dude, you mean my *&#$ is really made by Giant? And Giant also makes those Walllyrides? And the frame is made by the same company that makes frames for those low rent Motobecanes and Diamondbacks? Man, coulda saved a ton and just bought a *********"


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

There's many bike manufacturers in Taiwan. Brands such as Trek can get their bikes supplied from many of them.

Giant - Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, Bianchi, Scott
Kinesis - Haro, Iron Horse, Jamis, K2, Kona, Raleigh, Titus, [many of bikesdirect's bikes]
A-Pro - Fuji, Haro, Iron Horse, Marin, Norco, Raleigh
Merida - Specialized
Ideal - Bianchi, Trek, Fuji, Pacific (AKA GT, Schwinn, Mongoose, etc.)
Advanced
Martec
Kenstone
Hodaka
...
there's dozens of factories, though the ones in this short list are the ones supplying the frames that carry reputable brand names.

Lots of brands go with China for carbon, using one of the multitude of composite expert suppliers there (ex. Top Key).

Giant factory photo tour: http://www.flickr.com/photos/inmotionasia/sets/72157617186384395/

It doesn't really matter where the bike is made, really. You can tell the quality when you get it, if you have enough sense. That's all that matters. Did you know that some bikes labeled, made in Canada or some European country can actually be a frame made in Asia and then finished in their claiming country, if they add enough value to claim that 60% of the value was done in that country? I believe adding components counts.

From what I hear, the factories are really high quality. The workers are really skilled and working conditions are better than decent. Trek and others make a good effort to ensure high quality product coming out of these factories.

This Kinesis copy of the Giant Reign (with a stabbed seat tube and Trek style headtube) made me laugh: http://www.kinesis.com.tw/frames/a636-2012.php


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## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

Varaxis said:


> There's many bike manufacturers in Taiwan. Brands such as Trek can get their bikes supplied from many of them.
> 
> Giant - Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, Bianchi, Scott
> Kinesis - Haro, Iron Horse, Jamis, K2, Kona, Raleigh, Titus, [many of bikesdirect's bikes]
> ...


I heard the same thing about the factories being really nice. I wonder can people purchase just 1 frame from them? They seem to have tons of choices on different frames but no prices.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I don't think they'd sell singles direct to consumers. I'd think you'd have to make a batch order, unless you search Alibaba or find some individual middle men on eBay

Racist stereotype inc: aren't Asians typically good calculating? Nice to have smart folks making my bikes rather than fat lazy Americans! JK :lol:

Seriously, I would imagine that it could be the norm for many of their citizens go to technical schools, where people learn how to work such a job building bikes. In contrast, people in the US typically study at a college to get some type of "office" job after getting a degree.

Eh? This thread got 100 posts? WTF. :shocked:


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## Steeljaws (May 2, 2010)

Crash Test Dumby said:


> Being picky here, but Kinesis only makes the frames. The assembly of most of the bikes is done by Giant manufacturing from what I understand.
> 
> "So wait dude, you mean my *&#$ is really made by Giant? And Giant also makes those Walllyrides? And the frame is made by the same company that makes frames for those low rent Motobecanes and Diamondbacks? Man, coulda saved a ton and just bought a *********"


Yup....now say sayonara bye bye cruel world.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Not sure how reputable these guys are...

http://www.e-hongfu-bikes.com/

but they seem to be one of the direct choices. Some frames show up on EBay. My suspicion is that the bikes that show up that way are from small batches, made on spec to show at trade shows or to sell as catalog frames to someone who rebrands them.

Leader is supposed to be another good source along these lines.

Be aware that Chinese non-branded frames have a reputation for short top tubes. Actually, similar proportions to BD bikes I think. The brands do add some real value in a couple ways - they seem to pay more attention to making the geometry of their bikes make sense, and they design suspension linkages that work better, and that the factories can't sell through other channels for fear of screwing up their high-grossing contracts.

I'd probably be taking a hard look at Fuji if I wanted to stretch a buck on picking up a complete. Now that Giant has a strong brand name and some sponsored riders, their prices aren't as much better as they used to be. Fuji may be taking on that mantle.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I demo'd a Fuji. They actually are pretty nice. They had some no name stuff like Oval parts and some Alex rims, but the wheels were actually stiff and great hub feel (I'm used to i9, DT EX1750, and CKing) and had no issues with the function of Oval parts. The low profile Hutchinson tires actually had lots of bite on climbs. Their 5" reveal felt more like an XC bike (they call it their AM bike). It felt light and floaty--it seemed to like to pop up for air, sort of light on its feet. My demo was cut short by a pinch flat on a g-out; rims too stiff and tires too thin or maybe I was a bit too fast and reckless.

Test ride one. They're not bad bikes at all. It felt a little stretched at first, but was totally natural and fast on the trail. Talked to their mechanics and they said they got a redesign recently. Their only peeve was the internal cable routing and the pains of snaking a cable through it. The tires were pretty high pressure; they said they pump it up to 38psi or so to try and prevent the pinch flats. Shimano DynaSys felt nicer than the XO stuff on my bike, probably cause it was new. Shimano levers seem to be getting shorter, sort of like Avid levers, which is nice; I didn't wish that I had them inboard of the shifters. The shifter paddles felt cheap/flimsy, but I like dual release.The Rock Shox stuff felt really nice. The fork smoothed things out things way better than my F29 100mm FIT RLC. When I saw the MSRP, $4xxx, it actually kind of shocked me. They're not as cheap as you think, unless the street price is much lower. Dunno of any Fuji dealers near me. I demo'd 'em at JensonUSA.

If I were on a tight budget, and had to have new, I'd be shopping last years model on anything. One of the hottest deals I've seen for a brand new bike was a 2010 Mongoose Teocali Super for $1800. I typically shop used, looking for hot deals.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

AndrwSwitch said:


> The brands do add some real value in a couple ways - they seem to pay more attention to making the geometry of their bikes make sense, and they design suspension linkages that work better


Wondering about your reasoning for these statements.Would you please explain?


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

If you can find the geometry charts for some of the off-brand frames, compare them to the geometry chart for your bike.

I need to figure out my reach on my MTB. But I know my top tube length - 590mm. In "beginner" and, where published, off-brand geometry, I need to size up one or two to get a long enough reach. Then I run into problems with the head tube being too tall to put my bars where I like them. Sometimes reach and top tube lengths will go up by silly lengths like 6mm/size, as bikes get taller and taller. So maybe I can size up one or two and get it right, but a taller person would go on some huge size that's not even made.

I remember looking through some geometry charts for one of the catalog frames, can't remember which one right now, but Nashbar or Performance, and thinking I'd need a pretty wacky size to get my right fit.

Geometry responds to fashion, of course. But, I think it's also been making some progress - old school geometry was to have frames that didn't run much longer than a road frame, and a really, really long stem. The unbranded bikes that those factories are knocking out frequently have that kind of geometry. They're probably just reusing tooling or designs from something else, and they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them the most, so reuse of a major brand's current patterns would be stupid.

Suspension linkages - the cheap stuff makes no sense. Pivot points several inches out along the down tube from the bottom bracket?? Tons of single pivot stuff. Honestly, I haven't been on an expensive FS bike I've liked either, so far, but at least they're trying.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

AndrwSwitch said:


> If you can find the geometry charts for some of the off-brand frames, compare them to the geometry chart for your bike.
> 
> I need to figure out my reach on my MTB. But I know my top tube length - 590mm. In "beginner" and, where published, off-brand geometry, I need to size up one or two to get a long enough reach. Then I run into problems with the head tube being too tall to put my bars where I like them. Sometimes reach and top tube lengths will go up by silly lengths like 6mm/size, as bikes get taller and taller. So maybe I can size up one or two and get it right, but a taller person would go on some huge size that's not even made.
> 
> ...


Good post:thumbsup:

What feature are you looking for on a FS bike, firmness, plushness, Geo ???.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Honestly, I haven't been on an expensive FS bike I've liked either, so far, but at least they're trying.


Don't you mean inexpensive?


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Me?

The FS bikes I really want to try are the Specialized Epic, Trek Top Fuel, Santa Cruz Blur XC, short-travel Yeti, Giant whatever their race bike is called at the moment, Scott Spark, etc. I want to be able to stand up and climb, carve turns, and have the bike stay cohesive when I sprint.

I'm a couple years away from my Master's, so I haven't been trying that hard to find them at demo. But when I bump into a demo by chance, they always seem to have long-travel bikes. I'm not a big dude, which may or may not be part of it, and I just haven't been impressed.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Me?
> 
> The FS bikes I really want to try are the Specialized Epic, Trek Top Fuel, Santa Cruz Blur XC, short-travel Yeti, Giant whatever their race bike is called at the moment, Scott Spark, etc. I want to be able to stand up and climb, carve turns, and have the bike stay cohesive when I sprint.
> 
> I'm a couple years away from my Master's, so I haven't been trying that hard to find them at demo. But when I bump into a demo by chance, they always seem to have long-travel bikes. I'm not a big dude, which may or may not be part of it, and I just haven't been impressed.


If you prefer standing you may like Maverick Monolink design. It's the best climbing design I own. Pedaling is firm w/o PP. Try GT i-drive too, that may fit your bill as well.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

mimi1885 said:


> If you prefer standing you may like Maverick Monolink design. It's the best climbing design I own. Pedaling is firm w/o PP. Try GT i-drive too, that may fit your bill as well.


The Monolink linkage looks pretty cool. But it looked like they only do big bikes.

The last FS I rode was a GT Sensor 29er Expert. Actually, kind of a ridiculous bike. 120mm of travel on a 29er made the thing feel like a monster truck.

I found myself thinking about FS rigs on my ride today. There's a descent that drops a little over 1000 feet in about 2.5 very rocky miles, with some little drops along the way. So, it's not hugely technical or all that steep - it's a railroad grade - but it's pretty relentless. I climbed it once, descended it twice, and expect to be sore tomorrow.  If I could magically have more suspension only for stuff like that, and not for the rest of the ride, I'd be pretty stoked.


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## Ryan_in_AZ (Jul 6, 2011)

I think the most important thing that has been said on this topic is that if someone doesn't treat you right because of what you're riding, you probably don't want to hang with that type of person anyways. As long as you have a good personality and are fun to have on the trail, you are always welcome no matter what brand is on your bike.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Me?
> The FS bikes I really want to try are the Specialized Epic, Trek Top Fuel, Santa Cruz Blur XC, short-travel Yeti, Giant whatever their race bike is called at the moment, Scott Spark, etc. I want to be able to stand up and climb, carve turns, and have the bike stay cohesive when I sprint.


On short travel bikes like that differences in suspension design are less pronounced, and I am sure that fan of each one of those will tell you that it is the best for all the generic things that you list.  Most modern designs that are tuned up by good brands work just fine though, I think. More often then not what people like or dislike is overall fit and tune.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

XC/trail (5") FS bikes is probably the hottest bike category ATM. People with one already are going up to 6" and/or over to 29ers, from what I've seen recently. I predict that it'll be 29er XC/trail FS that'll be under a majority of the riders with new bikes over the next few years.

I forsee a lot of wishlists with these: Tallboy, Superfly 100/HiFi/Rumblefish, Spearfish, JET9/RDO, Mach 429, Epic 29er etc.

On the 26" side: Yeti SB-66, Remedy/Slash, Mojo SLR...

You've got to demo them to really know what you're missing out on. Can't really generalize that they all ride well or feel the same. These bikes have personality and can really charge up the fun level.


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## Spartan14 (Aug 17, 2010)

Not to mention passing the guy on the 3 k FS bike who's walking it up a small hill while you ride up it in your 2nd chain ring on an $800 HT makes you feel pretty good.


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

Spartan14 said:


> Not to mention passing the guy on the 3 k FS bike who's walking it up a small hill while you ride up it in your 2nd chain ring on an $800 HT makes you feel pretty good.


:thumbsup: Someone who knows what "mountain biking" is all about....nice post Pilgrim.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Axe said:


> On short travel bikes like that differences in suspension design are less pronounced, and I am sure that fan of each one of those will tell you that it is the best for all the generic things that you list.  Most modern designs that are tuned up by good brands work just fine though, I think. More often then not what people like or dislike is overall fit and tune.


This is true, XC FS bike is almost one dimension, shorter travel range limit the range of adjustment. It's rare to have firm pedaling and plush on an XC bike, Pivot M4 is a good example of this.

On the 5"+ travel you can have both and it also easier to separate a good design from a bad one.

Andrew aside from slacker geometry my 6.5" travel ML8 is the best climber out of the bikes in my stable, not best climber for it's travel best climber period:thumbsup:


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Varaxis said:


> I predict that it'll be 29er XC/trail FS that'll be under a majority of the riders with new bikes over the next few years.


Half of the population is under 5'8". Together with the fact that larger wheels can compensate for shorter suspension travel only up to a certain degree, and there are some intrinsic geometry limitations with fitting a lot of travel into a smaller frame, I do not see how you can fit everybody on FS 29rs. And I am not sure why would you want to do that - as much I am a believer in 29r hardtails, 150mm+ full suspension with meaty tires do seem to work just fine with me. I would rather have a bit less weight on them them a tad larger wheel size.


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## shenny88 (Sep 24, 2009)

Axe said:


> Half of the population is under 5'8". Together with the fact that larger wheels can compensate for shorter suspension travel only up to a certain degree, and there are some intrinsic geometry limitations with fitting a lot of travel into a smaller frame, I do not see how you can fit everybody on FS 29rs. And I am not sure why would you want to do that - as much I am a believer in 29r hardtails, 150mm+ full suspension with meaty tires do seem to work just fine with me. I would rather have a bit less weight on them them a tad larger wheel size.


Agreed. At 5' 8" i havent found a 29er that feels as "flickable" at my 26er (HT). I feel like im riding on top of most 29ers instead of controlling them. Im sure it takes getting used to 29" wheels, but i still have my sights set on 5" travel 26ers....


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

shenny88 said:


> Agreed. At 5' 8" i havent found a 29er that feels as "flickable" at my 26er (HT). I feel like im riding on top of most 29ers instead of controlling them. Im sure it takes getting used to 29" wheels, but i still have my sights set on 5" travel 26ers....


650B, after talking to some of the guys at my local shop and reading on here, I'm going to try 650B


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