# One Ghost Industries



## elbry (Sep 26, 2005)

anyone got one, looks real nice








enduro/dh


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## toowacky (May 24, 2005)

Don't own one... 

...but OG's main guy (David) is located in Portland, OR. I've seen a couple of the demo bikes at Black Rock before, but never rode. Take that back, I pedaled and bounced around on their big bike once in a parking lot. I'm not sure if they have any non-prototype frames in production, but I've been impressed w/ the finish/machining in person. 

I'd say if you have a question, hit up the One Ghost Industries site or blog and email David, he's usually a pretty responsive guy.


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

really cool bike.


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## blue109 (Jun 21, 2009)

was looking at pics. the longbow is fricken beautiful.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

weird.
......


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## oneghost (Nov 9, 2007)

*Cheers!*

We are in production on our Tanto frame now as well as the Proletariat Belt drive bike from our Stop Cycles brand (www.stopcycles.com).
We are ready to go into production on our Longbow and Genken frames also.
We are testing a second DH frame named the Musashi which will be available late 2010 as a 2011 frame. Our Katana DH frame in on a diet currently and will be available by summer this year. The Wakizashi is undergoing some minor changes to lower the travel and putting a bend in the down tube to allow for a piggy back shock. With the help of pro slopestyle rider Nick Simicik, the new bike will be ready by spring this year also.

hit us up any time:
[email protected]


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## doodooboi (Dec 29, 2006)

oneghost said:


> We are in production on our Tanto frame now as well as the Proletariat Belt drive bike from our Stop Cycles brand (www.stopcycles.com).
> We are ready to go into production on our Longbow and Genken frames also.
> We are testing a second DH frame named the Musashi which will be available late 2010 as a 2011 frame. Our Katana DH frame in on a diet currently and will be available by summer this year. The Wakizashi is undergoing some minor changes to lower the travel and putting a bend in the down tube to allow for a piggy back shock. With the help of pro slopestyle rider Nick Simicik, the new bike will be ready by spring this year also.
> 
> ...


your bikes did really caught my attention at I-bike. didn't get a chance to talk to you guys but would like to know more of the suspension platform. looks to me like a smilar DW or Maestro/vpp type of parallel linkage of a bike. is the axle path a rearward?


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## oneghost (Nov 9, 2007)

nothing like a DW or Maestro set up. the geometry and link movement are way different and thus creating a different wheel/axle path for sure. the bikes have a rearward path at the first part of the stroke (the travel depends on the bike) followed by a vertical axle path and finally the axle comes closer to the center of the BB shrinking the wheelbase at just before bottom out. this is for when you g-out through a berm or landing and the short wheelbase and BB height will allow you to accelerate the bike like a hard tail. All the while the floating shock keeps the travel bottomless feeling and glued to the ground.


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## doodooboi (Dec 29, 2006)

oneghost said:


> nothing like a DW or Maestro set up. the geometry and link movement are way different and thus creating a different wheel/axle path for sure. the bikes have a rearward path at the first part of the stroke (the travel depends on the bike) followed by a vertical axle path and finally the axle comes closer to the center of the BB shrinking the wheelbase at just before bottom out. this is for when you g-out through a berm or landing and the short wheelbase and BB height will allow you to accelerate the bike like a hard tail. All the while the floating shock keeps the travel bottomless feeling and glued to the ground.


So with the Katana And Musahi (sp) what are the difference there besides weight. And also what suspension charateristics do they have and also any more rider input detail on the bike in the Original Post. Apologies for all the question. Just quite intersted in bike line up. Any way to demo these bad boys?


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## jasonvelocity (Jul 21, 2006)

Tanto has always caught my eye.


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## Hesh to Steel (Oct 2, 2007)

Very interesting looking lineup. Visually, the suspension setup looks very similar to Iron horse's DW lineup from the past few years. However, I suppose the manipulation of the links would result in a completely different axle path and ride characteristic. 

I really like the katana. Awesome to see some rad looking new designs.


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## oakhills (Mar 30, 2004)

I like the Nihonto references for the bike frame names!
Very cool... I'll bet there are a bunch of riders who are looking
up Musashi on google now....


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## Hesh to Steel (Oct 2, 2007)

double post, sorry.


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

That Slopestyle bike looks pretty sick! Id ride it.


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## Pslide (Jul 3, 2006)

So let me get this straight, the axle path goes backward, then vertical, and finally forward? Crap, I gotta get myself one of these.

And the floating shock makes it feel bottomless and glued to the ground? Could you explain the science?

I'm sorry, but they could use to cut some of the marketing bs out. They do look like pretty nice bikes though.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Pslide said:


> So let me get this straight, the axle path goes backward, then vertical, and finally forward? Crap, I gotta get myself one of these.


hahaha good point it shall be called VSP  :thumbsup:


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

That looks very similiar to the Pivot Firebird.


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## oneghost (Nov 9, 2007)

doodooboi said:


> So with the Katana And Musahi (sp) what are the difference there besides weight. And also what suspension characteristics do they have and also any more rider input detail on the bike in the Original Post. Apologies for all the question. Just quite interested in bike line up. Any way to demo these bad boys?


The shock placement on the katana with its forward rotating links helps to pull the wheel forward during the last 1/4 of travel. and the placement keeps the weight at the BB and provides a degree of forward kinetic energy to the bike. The Katana was designed to be a WC level rig with the Musashi being more of a lighter weight privateer or domestic racer. The Musashi is expected to come in at about 10 lbs for a 17" frame with an Elka coil shock. The Katana should weigh in at about 13 lbs. Current build on the Katana is 43 lbs with stainless steel pivot axles and a no-nonsense parts package. The final bike due this year will loose about 4 lbs from the frame by going to a hydroformed tubeset, more CNC machining and aluminum axles (we are also adding a sliding dropout to allow 1" of wheelbase movement so stay's will be adjustable from 17" to 18" and anywhere in between that. We are using the same type of system we developed for the Tanto for this.

here is a review from mountain bike magazine during a test they did for an upcoming issue... the bike they rode was one of the prototype frames.....

.."This bike is big, burly and not to be toyed with. It likes to go very fast and will consume all gravity given the slightest provocation. This bike, other than being hella strong, has two unique performance features that I really liked. 
The first is air. I found the bike a little difficult to catch big air on dirt-jump style ramps. I assume it is due to weight and suspension absorbing the face of the jump (and my non-DJ skills). But drops, on the other hand, are like nothing I have ever ridden. I found launching off drops and wood ramps to be easier than ever and I flew farther than normal. Landings were amazing smooth. I can't explain how the rear suspension feels different but it does. It almost felt like the bike had endless travel. However, on at least 2 drops I did feel the rear "rub" or "grind." Johnathon heard it and thought I bottomed out the rear but it didn't feel that way. It just sounded like the tire rubbed against something but there was no accompanying "brake feel." So I'm not sure what that was about.
The second feature that I loved was cornering. We were running on some awesome tires, Muddy Marys, and the dirt was a mixed hard/soft/wet. Basically the trail surface was unpredictable. But that didn't seem to bother the Katana. When we got the bike from Rob he explained that it should be driven like a Porsche; "Haul ass into the corners, brake, turn and let go." That is so right. Given the slick conditions we were in the corners wanted to slide. This was no problem. The above brake, turn and go technique combined with a little purposeful slide ate the corners like cake. This was the closest I have come to drifting around a bermed corner. The bike held a solid line while having the rear kicked out in a slide.

I'd love to write more but apparently have to go. " 
....

Hope some of this was not too full of marketing hype. I just design and build what I think is the coolest thing out there. Been riding for over 20 years and racing 16 of those 20 years so I have a small idea of what works and def. of what I like.

Floating suspension helps keep the rear wheel glued to the ground at all times by giving a variable spring rate and movement to the shock. it is like having negative travel built in where the bike (not just ours but all bikes with a floating shock...Mondraker, Trek, Pivot....) the suspension pushes into the ground rather than pushing away from the ground.

think about it like this.. a statically mounted shock only allows a static movement for the suspension, a dynamic shock mount will allow the rear wheel to track the ground under any condition. With a static shock mount the wheel and rear moving parts are at the mercy of the ground and they just want to bounce when the wheel hits a bump. A dynamic shock mount will allow the rear wheel to move with the terrain giving it true suspension. We just use a different type of link to achieve a different axle path, something I felt was lacking in any bike out there today.


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## oneghost (Nov 9, 2007)

Pslide said:


> So let me get this straight, the axle path goes backward, then vertical, and finally forward? Crap, I gotta get myself one of these.
> 
> And the floating shock makes it feel bottomless and glued to the ground? Could you explain the science?
> 
> I'm sorry, but they could use to cut some of the marketing bs out. They do look like pretty nice bikes though.


I try to not be too marketing heavy, I know it gets annoying (it does to me with other companies at least!) I was a marketing guy for a hand full of other companies and went to school for it so it is in my blood. I'll try to tone it down a bit more.
Thanks for the though and fairness!


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## elbry (Sep 26, 2005)

ye this hardtail looks very well designed/made.


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## Pslide (Jul 3, 2006)

Oneghost, you seem like a good guy and I like your positive attitude. I think the bikes are very well designed and thought out, and I hope you guys have lots of success.

BUT, I don't think you'll find any suspension engineer that would back up these claims:



oneghost said:


> Floating suspension helps keep the rear wheel glued to the ground at all times by giving a variable spring rate and movement to the shock. it is like having negative travel built in where the bike (not just ours but all bikes with a floating shock...Mondraker, Trek, Pivot....) the suspension pushes into the ground rather than pushing away from the ground.
> 
> think about it like this.. a statically mounted shock only allows a static movement for the suspension, a dynamic shock mount will allow the rear wheel to track the ground under any condition. With a static shock mount the wheel and rear moving parts are at the mercy of the ground and they just want to bounce when the wheel hits a bump. A dynamic shock mount will allow the rear wheel to move with the terrain giving it true suspension.


By having the shock attached to moving linkages at both ends, the only thing you are doing is giving yourself additional flexibility in tuning the leverage ratio curve and wheel rate. Of course, wheel rate is very important and will have a large effect on the feel of the bike and it's ability to track the ground - especially when working with a shock that is well matched to the leverage curve.

And I don't think you could find a leverage curve produced by a "floating" shock design that you couldn't also produce with a single side actuated shock given total freedom in linkage design.


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## derekr (Mar 21, 2008)

Just looks like another swoopy tubed abortion but i'll be happy to be wrong


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## mullet dew (Jun 4, 2008)

oneghost said:



> Floating suspension helps keep the rear wheel glued to the ground at all times by giving a variable spring rate and movement to the shock. it is like having negative travel built in where the bike (not just ours but all bikes with a floating shock...Mondraker, Trek, Pivot....) the suspension pushes into the ground rather than pushing away from the ground.
> 
> think about it like this.. a statically mounted shock only allows a static movement for the suspension, a dynamic shock mount will allow the rear wheel to track the ground under any condition. With a static shock mount the wheel and rear moving parts are at the mercy of the ground and they just want to bounce when the wheel hits a bump. A dynamic shock mount will allow the rear wheel to move with the terrain giving it true suspension. We just use a different type of link to achieve a different axle path, something I felt was lacking in any bike out there today.


oneghost, I agree with Pslide about the presentation of your suspension theories, they reek of BS and make me question everything else you say. Technically every linkage driven bike has a floating shock, if you draw a line between all of the pivots on any(linkage driven) bike you are left with a four sided polygon and the shock is attached to two of those sides and when the suspension is activated the shock compresses. Manipulation of those pivots placement can give you whatever leverage curve you want, but stating(as fact not opinion) that any other non "floating" suspension system is inferior is just BS no two ways about it. Hold one of your bikes by one of the links that is connected to the shock and compress the suspension, your bike is now magically a "static shock" bike because on end of the shock doesn't move(because your holding it), it is all a matter of perspective.



> it is like having negative travel built in where the bike (not just ours but all bikes with a floating shock...Mondraker, Trek, Pivot....) the suspension pushes into the ground rather than pushing away from the ground.


One more thing have you heard of Newtons third law? For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Do you really expect us to believe that you bike pushes only into the ground and not back up at the rider("away from the ground"), if this were true the suspension would never rebound unless your rear wheel went over a hole or into the air, because that is the only time it could extend by not "pushing away from the ground", up at the rider.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, your bikes look very well thought out, I like the chainstay adjustment and the custom color options, its just you will put off a lot of customers by posting that garbage. You probably didn't intend for it to come out that way, but thats how I and other potential customers read it. I hope your company is successful, more options is always better when choosing a bike and as a small company you have the freedom to make the bikes how you think best not how the marketing department tells you to.

While we are on the subject of constructive criticism, I think you should have geometry charts on your website for your bikes, the Genken ,for example, has no BB height or chainstay length listed. See the bottom of this page for example, while you are at it posting what the A2C of the fork, and the size tires used to find those numbers would be a nice touch that is often left out on other sites. Geometry numbers are very important to some people, I for example would not buy a bike without looking at the geo numbers.


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## DJ Giggity (Sep 9, 2008)

One Ghost -

I see that you are new to MTBR (under this account name anyway). I would recommend you check out the following thread.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=537048

Proceed with caution.


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## mountain_yj (May 18, 2009)

Pslide said:


> So let me get this straight, the axle path goes backward, then vertical, and finally forward? Crap, I gotta get myself one of these. Look at a canfield frame.
> 
> And the floating shock makes it feel bottomless and glued to the ground? Could you explain the science? Evil, Trek, Mondraker, Propain, and others use FF shock setups.
> 
> I'm sorry, but they could use to cut some of the marketing bs out. They do look like pretty nice bikes though.


I don't own and haven't ridden but these "bs claims" have been around for a while.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

I always thought that the nice thing about a floating shock is that it reduces the number of force points on the front triangle from minimum 3 to two.

I agree with what someone else said, you can likely achieve the same shock rates with both methods.

It is also completely expected for a company to spout marketing bollox about why their particular way of doing things is better than others, simply because sadly thats what people need to hear to make "educated" decisions about a purchase.

Personally I'd prefer to see a no bull$hit spec sheet with all the relevant information, then I can decide what I like and don't like.

I do wish you get suspension curves made available, it would be over the head of most people, and maybe me too, but it would be nice.  


(hint hint hint to companies )


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## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

DJ Giggity said:


> One Ghost -
> 
> I see that you are new to MTBR (under this account name anyway). I would recommend you check out the following thread.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I remember that thread well. The best thread so far on MTBR. Alan got posterized by pretty much everyone, and then had Jerk_Chicken banned from MTBR as revenge.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

DJ Giggity said:


> One Ghost -
> 
> I see that you are new to MTBR (under this account name anyway). I would recommend you check out the following thread.
> 
> ...


-
Holy cr.ap, does anyone have the cliff notes for that thread? I could only read page 1 before my eyes got tired.... so Jayem says Chumba is full of shiat and Chumba just want to defend himself and say that all suspension designs are the same and that consumers are dumba$$es?


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## Pslide (Jul 3, 2006)

mountain_yj said:


> Originally Posted by Pslide
> So let me get this straight, the axle path goes backward, then vertical, and finally forward? Crap, I gotta get myself one of these. Look at a canfield frame.
> 
> And the floating shock makes it feel bottomless and glued to the ground? Could you explain the science? Evil, Trek, Mondraker, Propain, and others use FF shock setups.
> ...


Almost every bike out there has an axle path that starts backwards, goes vertical, and then forward. Ironically, the Jedi is probably one that doesn't (come forward at the end).

And just because other companies are using floating shocks doesn't change the physics of how suspension works - floating shocks are no better than non-floating from a suspension dynamics point of view.


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## elbry (Sep 26, 2005)

end day its a new brand, lets give him some slack, the bikes look like they work well


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

oneghost said:


> Floating suspension helps keep the rear wheel glued to the ground at all times by giving a variable spring rate and movement to the shock. it is like having negative travel built in where the bike (not just ours but all bikes with a floating shock...Mondraker, Trek, Pivot....) the suspension pushes into the ground rather than pushing away from the ground.
> 
> think about it like this.. a statically mounted shock only allows a static movement for the suspension, a dynamic shock mount will allow the rear wheel to track the ground under any condition. With a static shock mount the wheel and rear moving parts are at the mercy of the ground and they just want to bounce when the wheel hits a bump. A dynamic shock mount will allow the rear wheel to move with the terrain giving it true suspension. We just use a different type of link to achieve a different axle path, something I felt was lacking in any bike out there today.


Haha, that made me laugh :thumbsup:


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

Pslide said:


> Almost every bike out there has an axle path that starts backwards, goes vertical, and then forward. Ironically, the Jedi is probably one that doesn't (come forward at the end).


actually the jedi does come forward at the end. it just goes more rearward than other bikes. i believe its rearward for %75 of its travel then it starts to go forward.










This shows how other bikes also go rearward then vertical then forward.

The corsair bikes i believe start vertical and then go rearward for the end of their stroke. at least thats the claim of the maelstrom, crown, and marque.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

As long as the rear triangle (or wheel for the matter of fact) is connected to the main triangle by a pivot, the wheelpath will form that characteristic rear-up-front shape. 

I don't know if there are any exceptions (I am not a bicycle kinematics expert) but I am pretty sure I'm right.


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

tacubaya said:


> As long as the rear triangle (or wheel for the matter of fact) is connected to the main triangle by a pivot, the wheelpath will form that characteristic rear-up-front shape.
> 
> I don't know if there are any exceptions (I am not a bicycle kinematics expert) but I am pretty sure I'm right.


like i mentioned above, atleast the corsair crown for sure has an axle path that goes rearward at the end. its hard to tell on the malestrom and marque.

here is the link to the animation of the crown. when it hits the blow off shock it completely goes rearward in a very obvious way

http://www.corsairbikes.com/fly.aspx?layout=bike&taxid=58&sublayout=bikeanimations


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## aenema (Apr 17, 2006)

This criticism seems rather harsh. We have to agree that this product needs to be marketed. How else are you supposed to get the word out on anything, much less a small manufacturer who will not have showroom floors situated across the country. 

Those that like to study and understand the different suspension systems out there can, for the most part, see through the marketing and get the big picture. Forum threads are pages long of just that and it is great that we have this resource. But to tell a company not to use marketing "BS" is downright ignorant of how the world works and would be putting that company at a huge disadvantage in getting a foothold in the industry. Let him get the word out and we can intelligently discuss benefits and drawbacks of any design brought forth without being jerks about it.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

it depends on how much travel you are looking for, ie when you stop the motion.

The jedi would only be rearward if the shock end stop was at say 160mm travel.

Maelstrom/marque are single pivots, ie circular axle path, depending on where on that circle the range of motion is, determines the amount of rear/forward motion of the axle relative to the front triangle.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

essenmeinstuff said:


> I agree with what someone else said, you can likely achieve the same shock rates with both methods.


I'm glad people can figure this out on their own these days. We got lots more people out there that know a thing or two these days. :thumbsup:


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

oh yeah nothing like a meistro,no resemblance at all i think the shock path you describe is what every dw link claims,some one open a window on this thread. By the way that design does work very well. You have to make it obviously better than a giant if you want to charge even a little more.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

climbingbubba said:


> like i mentioned above, atleast the corsair crown for sure has an axle path that goes rearward at the end. its hard to tell on the malestrom and marque.
> 
> here is the link to the animation of the crown. when it hits the blow off shock it completely goes rearward in a very obvious way
> 
> http://www.corsairbikes.com/fly.aspx?layout=bike&taxid=58&sublayout=bikeanimations


Yeah well, that type of system will obviously end in rearward axle path as the blowoff linkage activates and extends, but if the shock had a longer stroke and no blowoff linkage, it would form a circular axle path. But I guess you know what I mean :thumbsup:


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Oh and all the negativity/BS aside, I really quite like the frames, except for the price lol, still can't quite justify $2k+ for frame and shock no matter how sweet it might be...

Been following oneghost on FB for a while now


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

The geken would actually be a pretty sweet trail bike for me,good geo and the 83mm BB and 150mm rear makes its perfect for upgrades on DH bike and migrate the components down to the trail bike. :thumbsup:


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## mountain_yj (May 18, 2009)

Pslide said:


> Almost every bike out there has an axle path that starts backwards, goes vertical, and then forward. Ironically, the Jedi is probably one that doesn't (come forward at the end).
> 
> And just because other companies are using floating shocks doesn't change the physics of how suspension works - floating shocks are no better than non-floating from a suspension dynamics point of view.


Not saying better or worse. You called BS and didn't have much to back it up. Your calling into question a bunch of tech other companies use based off of this one bike. I was just pointing this out.


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

suzuki did a fully floating shock for years, they no longer bother.So did ducati,i think they're done with it to. I do like the mounting of the shock on the pivot of the lower link ,i think it gets double use of an already strong area of the bike,not a huge fan of the shock mounting on the downtube,but that's not as bad as the top tube,top tubes are generally one of the lighter tubes on bicycles, why stress it or make it heavier. I saw what seemed to be a fairly knowlegable post,about how little the arc of the axle on a dw link bike actually varies from the axle path of a regular single pivot "primative" suspension design, a mm or two. I don't think the dw link design is bad because of this, i just think it lets you put the virtual pivot in line with the chain line with out having the chainline area getting cluttered. The pivots can also be wider because the chain doesn't get in the way. The dw link also makes the swingarm a triangle,an efficient strong design. The s shaped axlepath is the most hyped advantage of the dw ,when it probabely the least important benifit of the design.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

herbn said:


> . The s shaped axlepath is the most hyped advantage of the dw ,when it probabely the least important benifit of the design.


You're not even close. There is no s-shaped axle path. Quit while you are behind.


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## elbry (Sep 26, 2005)

all looks good to me, can not wait to see a rider rev or test, we should all know then how they ride, but they look well built and thought out


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

interesting, i did say the "s path" was very minimal 1 or 2 mm deviation from a compass drawn circle, there has to be a little deviation if the links are different lengths,no? particularly if the lower links are shorter ,the lower links swing through an arc faster than the tops which pushes out the bottom of the rear triangle quicker, especially if those lower links are oriented more vertically than the top links. This is pretty observable on an old school Karpiel, that's not really a huge supporting argument for virtual pivot because those bikes did not pedal very well. A lot of newer frames seem to have very similar link lengths and angles(top vs bottom) so the effect is less pronounced. I've seen the computer model of the dw and like i said in my last post axle path should not be their main selling point,shouldn't really be mentioned at all .


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## mountain_yj (May 18, 2009)

essenmeinstuff said:


> Oh and all the negativity/BS aside, I really quite like the frames, except for the price lol, still can't quite justify $2k+ for frame and shock no matter how sweet it might be...
> 
> Been following oneghost on FB for a while now


****, that ain't nothin compared to some of these bikes coming out now. 3300 for a frame is insane.


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## cSquared (Jun 8, 2006)

essenmeinstuff said:


> it depends on how much travel you are looking for, ie when you stop the motion.
> 
> The jedi would only be rearward if the shock end stop was at say 160mm travel.
> 
> Maelstrom/marque are single pivots, ie circular axle path, depending on where on that circle the range of motion is, determines the amount of rear/forward motion of the axle relative to the front triangle.


The Jedi's axle path is not what was shown in the chart above- but close- 
It stops moving rearward at about 120mm of travel-- After which is vertical and forward-ish-
The Key being that we want the frame to have rearward up to sag. 68mm or so-
Then another 60mm of rearward after that for bumps and edges- but then vertical for cornering-

Bikes are ridden from 30%(sag) to about 70% of travel most the time- same with going through corners- Thats why the Jedi doesn't feel weird cornering but still has tons of rearward bump release.
I wouldn't want a rearward axle path all the way to bottomout- Cause the more the wheel moves back under compression (g-ing out through corners) the wider the turning radius gets- And if it never goes vertical- in this range- then the bike feels like it wants to "stand up" or feels like it is straightening out the turn.

Food for thought-
chris


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## mountain_yj (May 18, 2009)

climbingbubba said:


> like i mentioned above, atleast the corsair crown for sure has an axle path that goes rearward at the end. its hard to tell on the malestrom and marque.
> 
> here is the link to the animation of the crown. when it hits the blow off shock it completely goes rearward in a very obvious way
> 
> http://www.corsairbikes.com/fly.aspx?layout=bike&taxid=58&sublayout=bikeanimations


The Malestom doesn't. That upper pivot is fixed, so the whole path is a fixed arc.
http://www.corsairbikes.com/fly.aspx?layout=bike&taxid=59&sublayout=bikeanimations

I wish more companies posted these animations


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

herbn said:


> interesting, i did say the "s path" was very minimal 1 or 2 mm deviation from a compass drawn circle, there has to be a little deviation if the links are different lengths,no? particularly if the lower links are shorter ,the lower links swing through an arc faster than the tops which pushes out the bottom of the rear triangle quicker, especially if those lower links are oriented more vertically than the top links. This is pretty observable on an old school Karpiel, that's not really a huge supporting argument for virtual pivot because those bikes did not pedal very well. A lot of newer frames seem to have very similar link lengths and angles(top vs bottom) so the effect is less pronounced. I've seen the computer model of the dw and like i said in my last post axle path should not be their main selling point,shouldn't really be mentioned at all .


Yeah, I don't know where you got this info, but it's not correct, not even close. There is no "S-shaped" path on a DW bike. Maybe you are thinking that because DW bike and VPP bikes both have two sets of linkages that they must have similer axle paths? That's simply not true. Having two sets of linkages allows for many axle paths depending on the length and direction of rotation. Karpial also did not have an "S" shaped axle path, it had more of a "J" shape where it moves back initially but never comes forward all that much towards the end of travel. There are programs that let you see these things BTW. One thing to consider is that both links are moving in the same direction on both a karpiel and DW link, and on a VPP they are moving in opposite directions. That doesn't necessarily determine whether something is an "S-path" or not, but it should tell you that things are significantly different, and they are also significantly different between Karpiel's design and DW.

The axle path on the DW link IS the main selling point though, because it has a certain amount of anti-squat dialed in at certain points, starting with 100% at the normal sag-point. As the suspension compresses it is assumed that this is due to bumps, so that amount of anti-squat decreases. The amount of anti-squat and location in the travel IS what defines the DW link, which is defined by it's axle path. This is because as you pedal, you generate forces that cause the suspension to compress. Some bikes that have fairly high pivot points cause the suspension to "stiffen", but it's usually an amount that exceeds 100%, making the bike very harsh when trying to pedal through rock gardens. Lower pivot bikes often bob more or settle deep into their suspension when heading up steep hills, which essentially is "not enough" anti-squat. That is the main selling point.


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## Jhanney (Apr 9, 2008)

hi couldnt help but read this thread but with all the discussion on dw, canfield, floater shocks, how much difference does it make to the ride quality? say for a dh bike or a 5-6" fully? 

i have never tried anything but a single pivot 5" bike and was looking to get something new this year. possibly a 6.5"

my typical trails is a extremely wet root muddy area which was build near a lake. and the other is a gravelly trail. 

all i did to get more traction was change my tires to dhf f and r. 

what speed must i achieve to truely test a bike and its ride qualities? total noob here. but i was looking at the oneghost and pretty keen on the genken


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## simcik (Dec 2, 2005)

Jhanney said:


> hi couldnt help but read this thread but with all the discussion on dw, canfield, floater shocks, how much difference does it make to the ride quality? say for a dh bike or a 5-6" fully?
> 
> i have never tried anything but a single pivot 5" bike and was looking to get something new this year. possibly a 6.5"
> 
> ...


Ride quality is totally a personal preference thing. Yes, some designs are more efficient than others, some feel better than others in rough stuff, or popping off of lips, or pedalling. Some rely on shock technology to be effecient, some use more complex linkages to get the job done.

I have always been a fan on single pivot or linkage driven single pivots for most kinds of riding as they are more simple, durable, and lighter. While they typically rely on shock technology to pedal well, they jump off lips better and have a more playful feel.

I had a glory and a v10 and was not crazy about how they preferred to plow through things rather than be finnesse bikes. I really have enjoyed being back on single pivots. Once you learn the characteristics of how the can jack when braking in certain areas or hang up a tad in the rear over square edge hits, you learn to ride the bike and compensate.

Suspension types are different strokes for different folks. If you find something you like, stick with it. Just my $.02


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## ssdomination (Feb 14, 2010)

Personally after riding the Katana, Wakazashi, and Tanto they do need refinement. I only rode the Wakazashi for about a week or 2 but it was a really fun bike to ride. The Tanto needs a smaller dual top tube cause you slam your knees against it because its so wide. The Katana was not a very impressive bike to me. After 2-3 of travel was used the shock would bottom out causing the rear triangle to hit the top tube putting a nice dent in it. The Katana had a falling rate when i was riding it instead of a rising rate which im not sure if they've switched that yet, hopefully they did.

Hope the refinements get done because the bikes have potential but need work.


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## Jhanney (Apr 9, 2008)

wow. I presume the bikes you tried out are prototypes? I have been in conversations with david on when he will allow me to throw a leg over one. what is the wakazashi really like? was the geometry any good?


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## ssdomination (Feb 14, 2010)

The Katana personally is something to stay away from until fixed. BIG suspension issues there. The Wakazashi was a fun bike but its basically a Tank Cycles bike with slightly diff geo-http://www.tankcycle.com.tw/product.asp

Nothing against David but the bikes need a lot of work. Plus he made riders pay 1000 for the DH frame which is a horrible idea specially on a prototype... I sold my Intense M3 to pay for this bike and I am disappointed with how the bikes rode and customer service they provided which was BAD! Ive talked to a lot of the other team riders from the MSC cup races and they told me the same thing i just posted.

I hope the fix their products cause they have a chance to be pretty decent.


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## ssdomination (Feb 14, 2010)

Plus the Katana i had was horrible!!! I had it for about a month and was just kicking myself in the ass for selling my Intense M3. The Katana's suspension needs work. The shock does go into the travel unless you hit a big bump so it rides like a hard tail a lot of the time which is nice for pedaling but your feet get knocked off the pedals all the time. And when the bike actually does use its travel it blows threw it like its not even there. When I told one ghost about this he told me it was all my fault and that i set the shock up wrong when in reality i did exactly as told to set up the shock. Also a very scary feeling when you bottom out and the rear triangle slams into the top tube. Almost sounds like a shotgun everytime. At the PA race in Washington last year i bottomed out a minimum of 10 times per run-no exaggeration!!!! And when JD Swanguen sat on it he jumped off and told me to dump that bike immediately! hahahahaha


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## FA-Q (Jun 10, 2008)

ssdomination said:


> Plus the Katana i had was horrible!!! I had it for about a month and was just kicking myself in the ass for selling my Intense M3. The Katana's suspension needs work. The shock does go into the travel unless you hit a big bump so it rides like a hard tail a lot of the time which is nice for pedaling but your feet get knocked off the pedals all the time. And when the bike actually does use its travel it blows threw it like its not even there. When I told one ghost about this he told me it was all my fault and that i set the shock up wrong when in reality i did exactly as told to set up the shock. Also a very scary feeling when you bottom out and the rear triangle slams into the top tube. Almost sounds like a shotgun everytime. At the PA race in Washington last year i bottomed out a minimum of 10 times per run-no exaggeration!!!! And when JD Swanguen sat on it he jumped off and told me to dump that bike immediately! hahahahaha


Seriously? Ouch! Not to be rude, but... did you get any assistance with the shock setup? I know you said you set it up as directed, but did anybody knowledgeable double-check the instructions and setup? And the shock was checked to make sure it wasn't the problem? Just seems weird to me that someone would put a frame out that worked that badly.


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## ssdomination (Feb 14, 2010)

No disrespect to David but... Yes i did actually and its only a Fox DHX 5.0 so it was a simple set up. Rob the guy i worked with at Trail Head Cycles, his bike also felt just like mine but he didnt ride it as hard either. Also I am not sure but when the bike was bottoming out and the rear triangle was hitting the top tube i cracked the bottom of the side plates. I THINK they were cracked but not 100% sure. I was all about rocking one ghost products until i got it and learned that they do not have good customer service. Also you pay $1000 for a frame, and if that frame breaks your **** out of luck for till they build you a new one.


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