# Hose guides - Alernative to brazing?



## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

Is there any chance there is some kind of super strong adhesive I can use to glue hose guides on? It would need to be able to withstand the powder coaters oven.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Why not braze?


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

Because I cant and paying a frame builder to do it isnt cheap. So if its possible to use a super strong adhesive I can buy some guides and do it myself for much less.


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

Does the lack of response indicate this is a bod idea then?


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## HomeGrownSS (Jan 18, 2006)

mikesnowdon said:


> Is there any chance there is some kind of super strong adhesive I can use to glue hose guides on? It would need to be able to withstand the powder coaters oven.


if you cannot braze em on, use zipties.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

mikesnowdon said:


> Because I cant...


"Can't" is a four letter word. I try not to use it.


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm not going to buy a torch etc and learn to braze for the sake of a few hose guides, besides it wouldn't work out any cheaper which is the whole point. 

Using zipties is ugly. 

I guess I'll start looking at epoxy glues and see if I can find one that is a; strong enough, and b; can withstand the baking temps for powdercoating. 

In the meantime if anyone wants to take me seriously and knows something that would be useful please post here. Otherwise dont bother. 

Cheers.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

mikesnowdon said:


> use to glue hose guides on?





mikesnowdon said:


> In the meantime if anyone wants to take me seriously


I see these two things as mutually exclusive. Two good solutions have already been made. Take it to have them brazed on by anyone with a torch or use zip ties. Gradeschool arts and crafts solutions are going to look far worse than zip ties.


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## restlessrider (Nov 29, 2007)

can't say I know if it is strong enough, but JB Weld is fine for powdercoating


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

Not really fair to get all huffy about this, you could do your own research since nobody here would even consider doing such a thing in the first place. And it seems to me that would be obvious if you had spent even the first ounce of effort thinking about what you wanted. Pity you have to pay someone a fair price for their investment, time, and ability to have it done the right way.

And to take your original question seriously, the fittings don't generally don't have enough surface area, and "super-strong" high-temp adhesives aren't cheap if they even exist. You might be able to braze them cheaply if you can get a mapp torch and a short piece of flux covered silver. Except you'd have to know how to braze first.


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

It was just a thought. If there is a glue strong enough hen why not? some would say is not the 'proper' way to do it but those same people probably think bonded carbon frames aren't 'proper' either. 

I mean no disrespect to frame building, its a fine art. And if I was better off I wouldn't hesitate to have a pro frame builder add some hose guides for me. Unfortunately at the moment I'm looking for ways to save money in these difficult economic times. For that reason I wondered if a strong epoxy of some kind could be a an alternative which would enable me to attach some hose guides myself. assuming thee is such a product that will satisfy the task I see no issues with it once the whole frames been blasted and painted. It'll not look any different. 

I may do some glue research and proceed with the idea. If I do I'll let you all know how it goes  

Thanks for all the help lol!

PS: Im in n way 'huffy' or angry in any way whatsoever.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Maybe here ......www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/ea_ultratemp.htm


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## Citizen Kane (Aug 12, 2007)

What temp is the powder coating oven, I'm guessing arond 200 deg C. Even the best high temp epoxys have a glass transition point around 150 C, after that its just luck if they stay on. I can if you want recommend an epoxy that should just about do it but its going to be a lot more than the cost of having it brazed on and you need to bond at 150 C to get the high temp properties.

You could soft solder with a high temp product, there are several lead based solders available with a 300 C melting point. I've done this with a hot air paint srtipper before.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

mikesnowdon said:


> Unfortunately at the moment I'm looking for ways to save money in these difficult economic times.


Krylon and zip ties.


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

Citizen Kane said:


> What temp is the powder coating oven, I'm guessing arond 200 deg C. Even the best high temp epoxys have a glass transition point around 150 C, after that its just luck if they stay on. I can if you want recommend an epoxy that should just about do it but its going to be a lot more than the cost of having it brazed on and you need to bond at 150 C to get the high temp properties.
> 
> You could soft solder with a high temp product, there are several lead based solders available with a 300 C melting point. I've done this with a hot air paint srtipper before.


Thanks for that.

Looks like I'll need to wait until I can afford to have some guides brazed on I think.

Cheers all!


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## rocwandrer (Oct 19, 2008)

I've used stick on hose guides on top of powdercoat before. I had one come off, but it was quick, easy, and cheap to replace. The replacement has stayed put for at least 3 years.

If the frame is aluminum, you can use rivet on hose guides before powdercoating. I have some, but I'm not sure where I got them (probably Nova). I also have some stops that, based on their design, would be pretty easy to modify into hose guides.

if this is an existing frame with cable stops, there are some problem solvers, alligator, etc adapters. Some work really well and look ok (others don't). The ones that pinch the hose between the adapter and the frame look the best, and work ok as long as you don't need to stop the hose from sliding along the frame. I have a bunch of those, and one of them kept sliding. I fixed it with a zip tie about 2000 miles ago. I don't notice the ugly


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

mikesnowdon said:


> It was just a thought. If there is a glue strong enough hen why not? some would say is not the 'proper' way to do it but those same people probably think bonded carbon frames aren't 'proper' either.
> 
> I mean no disrespect to frame building, its a fine art. And if I was better off I wouldn't hesitate to have a pro frame builder add some hose guides for me. Unfortunately at the moment I'm looking for ways to save money in these difficult economic times. For that reason I wondered if a strong epoxy of some kind could be a an alternative which would enable me to attach some hose guides myself. assuming thee is such a product that will satisfy the task I see no issues with it once the whole frames been blasted and painted. It'll not look any different.
> 
> ...


But joints in a bonded carbon frame have a lot more surface area than a cable guide does.

I think if there was a strong glue that would make installing braze ons easier/faster/cheaper, you'd see every mass produced bike done that way.

Judging by the framebuilders lists/forums, there seems to be quite a few hobby builders in the UK, maybe you could look up one of those guys?


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

Is there any way to convert a normal cable stop into a hose guide? I have files and a dremel and Im confident using them. Anyone done this before?

EDIT: Live wire. I missed your post. Thanks for the input.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

mikesnowdon said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Looks like I'll need to wait until I can afford to have some guides brazed on I think.
> 
> Cheers all!


Um, if some one brought me a frame devoid of parts, paint and clean I would do it for maybe 30 bucks? Doode, if that is too much bread better hit the streets for some work

DP 420 might work, cost you a lot more than that.

Personal peeve. Way off topic. I have begun turning away these kind of jobs because some of you may not believe how disgusting some of these bikes guys try and bring me. I tell them to remove parts, get it clean but inevitably I get something completely built and covered in scuzz, sports drink, sweat, spit and mud. I almost feel like I could get a damn infection from touching some of these peoples sh-t.:madman:


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/CABLE-STOP-SINGLE-RIVET-BLK.html

I used these on a frame a guy didn't want to have painted again. Pop rivet them on. You can drill them out for hoses.

Tim


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

dbohemian said:


> Personal peeve. Way off topic. I have begun turning away these kind of jobs because some of you may not believe how disgusting some of these bikes guys try and bring me. I tell them to remove parts, get it clean but inevitably I get something completely built and covered in scuzz, sports drink, sweat, spit and mud. I almost feel like I could get a damn infection from touching some of these peoples sh-t.:madman:


I do the same thing with wheels. Folks bring me a wheel with a muddy tire, filled with latex, and the cassette on it, the disc rotor, and want a spoke put in it. $20 and bring beer. Clean that mess up and bring beer and I'll do it for free. That's why I never quote anything until I see it. The cost goes up the dirtier it is.

BTW, you see the TIG Brazing thread? I was hoping you'd comment as I thought that was you that had tried it.


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

dbohemian said:


> Um, if some one brought me a frame devoid of parts, paint and clean I would do it for maybe 30 bucks? Doode, if that is too much bread better hit the streets for some work
> 
> DP 420 might work, cost you a lot more than that.
> 
> Personal peeve. Way off topic. I have begun turning away these kind of jobs because some of you may not believe how disgusting some of these bikes guys try and bring me. I tell them to remove parts, get it clean but inevitably I get something completely built and covered in scuzz, sports drink, sweat, spit and mud. I almost feel like I could get a damn infection from touching some of these peoples sh-t.:madman:


Thats a great offer but the postage might rack up the price a bit! I have a job thanks


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

TimT said:


> http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/CABLE-STOP-SINGLE-RIVET-BLK.html
> 
> I used these on a frame a guy didn't want to have painted again. Pop rivet them on. You can drill them out for hoses.
> 
> Tim


Not sure thats ok on a steel frame?


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

Hose guides. About £8 - £12 per piece in the UK, plus postage as none of them are local to me. I need at least 4 so that's average £40 + postage. 

I like DIY so I'm going to see if I can modify the existing cable stops


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

Any avice on removing canti bosses please?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Hacksaw and file.


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

I assume I need to be careful not to remove material from the seatstay tube itself?

Is it easy to do?


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

mikesnowdon said:


> I assume I need to be careful not to remove material from the seatstay tube itself?
> 
> Is it easy to do?


Just hacksaw the bulk of it off.

File it down flush and you're done.

It's easy.


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

OK thanks. 

On the Hose guides: 

I was thinking about using the stick on plastic ones, but using a strong glue and fitting them after the fame is painted to make them more permanent. Any thoughts on this?


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

That is the only and/or best way if you have to glue them. You will have to use a strong adhesive only after the powdercoating process. I would look into some of the new (prob 10 years old at this point) autobody adhesives that are used to hold panels onto cars. This will only work for a hose guide or shift cable stop. A brake cable stop sees too much force.


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

Cool 

I was also thinking of adding a couple of hose guides to the drive side seat-stay. That way I can use the existing rear brake cable stops for the rear mech shift cable, with a longer length of outer casing from the TT to the mech itself. In muddy UK conditions this makes sense I think.

Opinions please?


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## derek (Jan 13, 2004)

mikesnowdon said:


> Is there any way to convert a normal cable stop into a hose guide? I have files and a dremel and Im confident using them. Anyone done this before?
> 
> EDIT: Live wire. I missed your post. Thanks for the input.


http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=1189971


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## J_Hopper (Mar 5, 2005)

Would this work for you?


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

derek said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=1189971


Thanks


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

J_Hopper said:


> Would this work for you?


Nice solution but not the one Im after. Cheers though


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

mikesnowdon said:


> Not sure thats ok on a steel frame?


Why not? Drill a couple of holes and rivet the sucker on.

Tim


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

Maybe this is fine on thicker walled aluminium tubes but Im quite sure its not ok on thinner walled steel tubes.


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## rocwandrer (Oct 19, 2008)

mikesnowdon said:


> Maybe this is fine on thicker walled aluminium tubes but Im quite sure its not ok on thinner walled steel tubes.


if you put them only in the butted sections, and had nice round, smooth edged holes, it would probably be structurally ok, but it would be tough to ensure it didn't end up a spot for rust to get started.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

mikesnowdon said:


> Maybe this is fine on thicker walled aluminium tubes but Im quite sure its not ok on thinner walled steel tubes.


How could you know?


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

I have a steel Giant touring frame that has holes in the downtube that are there from the factory. It's just a .125" hole in each end with a rubber grommet for a wire to go through. My bike appears to have about 25k (at least) miles on it, so I'd say durability wasn't an issue. If they are butted tubes (could be straight guage), the holes are in the butts.


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## derek (Jan 13, 2004)

mikesnowdon said:


> Maybe this is fine on thicker walled aluminium tubes but Im quite sure its not ok on thinner walled steel tubes.


You do realize that builders drill holes for water bottle cages?


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

pvd said:


> How could you know?


I just do


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

derek said:


> You do realize that builders drill holes for water bottle cages?


What a revelation! I had no idea!

Seiously though. That would have already weakened the tube a bit so I dont want to add to that thanks.

You guys can have a pop if you want. But I aint drilin my frame.


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## mikesnowdon (Sep 25, 2009)

Linnaeus said:


> I have a steel Giant touring frame that has holes in the downtube that are there from the factory. It's just a .125" hole in each end with a rubber grommet for a wire to go through. My bike appears to have about 25k (at least) miles on it, so I'd say durability wasn't an issue. If they are butted tubes (could be straight guage), the holes are in the butts.


OK.

Its a touring bike though. Mine is an MTB. Needs to be stronger.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

I really don't think a couple of very small holes in your frame is going to cause it to collapse any time soon. You have vent holes and H2O holes already there. If your steel frame is rusting your not doing proper maintenance IMHO. A squirt of frame saver once in awhile is good with or with out holes. Do what ever you want. 

Tim


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

mikesnowdon said:


> OK.
> 
> Its a touring bike though. Mine is an MTB. Needs to be stronger.


Actually, I use it as a mountain bike b/c it fits 29x2.0 tires.


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## rocwandrer (Oct 19, 2008)

TimT said:


> I really don't think a couple of very small holes in your frame is going to cause it to collapse any time soon. You have vent holes and H2O holes already there. If your steel frame is rusting your not doing proper maintenance IMHO. A squirt of frame saver once in awhile is good with or with out holes. Do what ever you want.
> 
> Tim


I can see why someone might think that. Depending on where you live, and what you use your bike for, preventing rust is not as simple as basic maintenance/cleaning/framesaver application. Drilling an additional hole represents a compromise in terms of requiring increased vigilance against rust (but it wouldn't stop me, and I live in a place with one of the worst possible environments for rust.)


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

TimT said:


> http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/CABLE-STOP-SINGLE-RIVET-BLK.html
> 
> I used these on a frame a guy didn't want to have painted again. Pop rivet them on. You can drill them out for hoses.
> 
> Tim


I'm trying to track down the optimum size of rivets (diameter, head size and grip length) to fit those very cable stops, the stops are inbound now but I wanted to see if anyone had the info handy on the optimum rivet specs, as I expect I might need to special order the rivets. Any info would be appreciated, thanks. :thumbsup:


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## jgerhardt (Aug 31, 2009)

Why not just use some of these and be done with it?
You are asking a bunch of frame builders for a cheap and easy solution to a problem that they have already figured out for themselves.


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## marks_bike (Aug 22, 2006)

This works great, and is super cheap.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=581491


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

this thread is almost a year old, so you would think the OP has a season of riding on whatever solution he came up with


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

You know, there's supeer strong adhesives that will work, it's just that they cost more than the brazing!

A buddy put a disc mount on an old girvin thsi way. He put it on the back side of the fork so the loads would force the mount against the fork.

The glue came from Com Dev, where his riding buddy works.

He happens to work there making satellites. 

Yeah, the kind that go to space.

Drew


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

devcon? When I worked on fighters, they would occasionally get dents/holes poked in them by hostile activities from the ground. If the hole was small enough, we used a metal filled epoxy by Devcon. It was really impressive.


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

I don't know the glue my friend used. The place where he got it is called Com Dev, a Canadian company in Cambridge Ontario, that does areospace. I have heard of devcon though.

Drew


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

Devcon is good stuff - the only stuff I would trust for reshaping the crankcase and ports of two-stroke PWC race engines.


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

Disclaimer: yet another non-builder chiming in.

So since you've gotten quite a few alternatives in the responses, but are pretty set on how you want to do things anyhow...

Uh, why don't you just have the guides coated at the same time, and epoxy them on _after_? No trouble then, so long as it isn't any trouble for your coater to do bits that small.

And popping them on with drilling and riveting thing isn't realluy a big deal, unless you are dealing with a particularly funky spot or maybe crazy thinner than normal tubes I suppose. Really.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

maybe Walt should close the thread since nobody looks at the date on the OP


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