# 2022 XCO-XCM Equipment



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I'll go first...

Take a look at this new ''look'' the PM certain team is using. I talked for what seemed hours with the personal mechanic of certain World Cup racer and there are some pretty cool things that team is working with. This PM has some tweaks internally along with updated software. Plus, I can neither deny nor confirm that when released to the public, you will be able to swap rings (you will). I also saw new tires (no labels or markings whatsoever...I had to ask!) being developed for mud racing in the 170 TPI 2.25 flavor mounted on a 26mm internal wheelset. Yes, 26mm internal from a manufacturer that does not make (or have available to the public) wheels like that. We also talked a bit about dampers (new one), 100, 110 and 120mm travel plus some hacks for using a 160mm rotor on a fork that does not support that. Now, I didn't take pictures of all this, but it was there in plain sight unnoticed to many. There were also some cool stuff I saw the past two weeks and I'll share pics available on social media.


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## agm2 (Jun 30, 2008)

carlostruco said:


> This PM has some tweaks internally along with updated software. Plus, I can neither deny nor confirm that when released to the public, you will be able to swap rings.


Hoping this new power meter is similar to the xplr range that recently came out, and at a similar price point.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More eye candy from Europe...









Bicis de los pro: Massi Aire SL de Gerardo Ulloa


Gerardo Ulloa logró entrar en el top-10 de Banyoles a lomo de su nueva Massi Aire SL, que estrena una espectacular decoración en este 2022




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Al detalle la nueva BH Ultimate EVO 2022 de David Valero


La semana pasada se presentó de manera oficial la última versión de la BH Ultimate EVO y tan solo unos días después ya la hemos podido ver en competición




www.brujulabike.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Al detalle la SCOTT Spark de Sergio Mantecón en la Andalucía Bike Race


Hemos podido ver en detalle el montaje con el que ha competido en la ABR y con el que seguramente le veamos en la mayoria de carreras de la temporada.




www.brujulabike.com


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## 141 (Jun 25, 2021)

So is the idea of smaller rotor just to reduce weight? Or is it also to improve modulation / not have excessive braking power?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

141 said:


> So is the idea of smaller rotor just to reduce weight? Or is it also to improve modulation / not have excessive braking power?


There is actually a pretty small weight difference between a 160 and 180mm rotor. IMHO the big difference is brake rub, brake rub is a fact of life with bigger rotors. On my road bike I use 140mm rotors front and rear just to prevent brake rub.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Same power meter I mentioned earlier, but in another bike. Those are the only two (PM) that exist in the world right now.


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## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

Any pictures of the Aspen ST from the picture in post #8? What does it say on the front tire after Aspen?


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I saw that tire up close and persional. Just size, EXO and TR...and 170tpi


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bicis de los pro: Trek Supercaliber "campeona olímpica" de Jolanda Neff


La Trek Supercaliber que han personalizado para la campeona olímpica. Jolanda Neff, al detalle




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

La Specialized S-Works Epic della Cicli Taddei, la bici di Failli, Chiarini e Casagrande


Oggi, lunedì 21 febbraio, da Jaen in Spagna è iniziata ufficialmente la stagione 2022 della Cicli Taddei, la squadra di Francesco Failli, della new entry




www.pianetamountainbike.it


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bike check della Orbea Oiz del KMC Orbea 2022


Il team KMC Orbea fino all'anno scorso è sempre stato tra una delle squadre più forti della Coppa del Mondo XCO, il motivo era molto semplice, alla c




www.pianetamountainbike.it


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> I'll go first...
> 
> Take a look at this new ''look'' the PM certain team is using. I talked for what seemed hours with the personal mechanic of certain World Cup racer and there are some pretty cool things that team is working with. This PM has some tweaks internally along with updated software. Plus, I can neither deny nor confirm that when released to the public, you will be able to swap rings (you will). I also saw new tires (no labels or markings whatsoever...I had to ask!) being developed for mud racing in the 170 TPI 2.25 flavor mounted on a 26mm internal wheelset. Yes, 26mm internal from a manufacturer that does not make (or have available to the public) wheels like that. We also talked a bit about dampers (new one), 100, 110 and 120mm travel plus some hacks for using a 160mm rotor on a fork that does not support that. Now, I didn't take pictures of all this, but it was there in plain sight unnoticed to many. There were also some cool stuff I saw the past two weeks and I'll share pics available on social media.
> 
> View attachment 1972384


Can confirm you speak of what you have seen


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> There is actually a pretty small weight difference between a 160 and 180mm rotor. IMHO the big difference is brake rub, brake rub is a fact of life with bigger rotors. On my road bike I use 140mm rotors front and rear just to prevent brake rub.


Hence I sized down to 160mm there’s still more than braking torque applied


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

141 said:


> So is the idea of smaller rotor just to reduce weight? Or is it also to improve modulation / not have excessive braking power?


Mostly to not get bent by flying stones and rocks hence less brake rub. Also reduces brake rub when the wheel flexes


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Al detalle la Trek Supercaliber de Vlad Dascalu


Dascalu se ha subido ha podio en todas las pruebas de Copa del Mundo y su primera victoria parece más cerca que nunca.




www.brujulabike.com


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## Cardy George (Dec 3, 2020)

carlostruco said:


> Bicis de los pro: Trek Supercaliber "campeona olímpica" de Jolanda Neff
> 
> 
> La Trek Supercaliber que han personalizado para la campeona olímpica. Jolanda Neff, al detalle
> ...





carlostruco said:


> Al detalle la Trek Supercaliber de Vlad Dascalu
> 
> 
> Dascalu se ha subido ha podio en todas las pruebas de Copa del Mundo y su primera victoria parece más cerca que nunca.
> ...


They look good, but I prefer Evie's


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

One I thought was interesting is the Decathlon Rockrider XC team bikes. Stephane Tempier is riding for them in 2022. 

It's what is supposed to be a "budget" frame and the team bikes are built up with Manitou suspension, SRAM XX1 AXS drivetrains and Mavic Crossmax wheels:









Prototype Decathlon Rockrider budget mountain bikes set to race the UCI XC World Cup


Decathlon budget carbon Rockrider mountain bikes aren't what we'd expect to see at the XC World Cup, but these prototypes say we will in 2022!




bikerumor.com


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

For the colour scheme I like Lars Forster's European Champion Scott Spark. 



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-lars-forsters-european-champion-inspired-scott-spark-rc.html



The spec of the bike looks to be a fairly standard Scott Sram team issue but he has a custom colour scheme.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Specialized have launched their new S-Works Vent Evo XC / gravel shoe.









Specialized launches the S-Works Vent Evo as a £400 gravel shoe for warm-weather riding


Specialized says the S-Works Vent Evo’s Dyneema mesh panels increase air circulation during off-road efforts




www.bikeradar.com





This looks to be an S-Works Recon shoe with big holes in.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I don't really understand why you would choose that shoe over the exos evo. Just the two Boas?


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More pro bikes...









Bicis de los pro: MMR Kenta SL de Lucía Gómez


Recién iniciada la temporada internacional de XCO, hemos podido estar con la MMR Kenta SL oficial del equipo para este 2022. En concreto con la empleada por Lucía Gómez.




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

A few trends I'm seeing more often than last year:
1. More SRAM teams using 10-52 in the back while keeping the same ring up front. 
2. Fox 34 SC more prominent. I even saw a Trek SuperCaliber with one two weeks ago.
3. Tire not available to the public (yet) are popping up everywhere, and not only from Maxxis.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LA DECATHLON ROCKRIDER RACE 900 S DI STEPHANE TEMPIER ANALIZZATA NEI DETTAGLI


Durante la prima tappa di Internazionali d'Italia Series a San Zeno di Montagna abbiamo avuto la possibilità di vedere dal vivo e anche di pesare la




www.pianetamountainbike.it


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Jordan Sarrou wins in Italy on a S-Works Epic EVO without the Brain and with remote lockout. 









Jordan Sarrou compite (y gana) con la S-Works Epic EVO sin Brain


Más recorrido para Jordan Sarrou. El francés compitió, y ganó, con la S-Works Epic EVO de 110 mm de recorrido trasero




esmtb.com


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## slashy (Dec 7, 2005)

also new tires for specialized : one of them is marked with 'captain' . I also saw some new sworks shoes (2 Boa's, no more small velcro on the front)


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## chase2wheels (Oct 16, 2003)

carlostruco said:


> Jordan Sarrou wins in Italy on a S-Works Epic EVO without the Brain and with remote lockout.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’ve wondered when Spesh would officially drop the brain. Perhaps if sram trims down the weight of their new electronic suspension bits they came out with for long travel bikes?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chase2wheels said:


> I’ve wondered when Spesh would officially drop the brain. Perhaps if sram trims down the weight of their new electronic suspension bits they came out with for long travel bikes?


The problem Specialized created for themselves is the huge following of dentists, doctors and fund managers who buy into the Brain hype. They sell a lot of S-Works with Brain into that community despite most of their pro riders tuning the brain out to minimum settings or riding disguised Epic Evo bikes. To opt for SRAM flight control or Fox Live link they would be doing a “us also” approach which would lose face in that lucrative pandemic boom markets of medical practitioners and fund managers. I doubt we’ll see it go in a hurry but it will be slowly and quietly displaced by newer and better technology


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Brad said:


> The problem Specialized created for themselves is the huge following of dentists, doctors and fund managers who buy into the Brain hype. They sell a lot of S-Works with Brain into that community despite most of their pro riders tuning the brain out to minimum settings or riding disguised Epic Evo bikes. To opt for SRAM flight control or Fox Live link they would be doing a “us also” approach which would lose face in that lucrative pandemic boom markets of medical practitioners and fund managers. I doubt we’ll see it go in a hurry but it will be slowly and quietly displaced by newer and better technology


It's funny...b/c it's true. Much like their historical trumpeting of horst as the best pedaling bikes. They stuck with that for what...two+ decades?


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Brad said:


> The problem Specialized created for themselves is the huge following of dentists, doctors and fund managers who buy into the Brain hype. They sell a lot of S-Works with Brain into that community despite most of their pro riders tuning the brain out to minimum settings or riding disguised Epic Evo bikes. To opt for SRAM flight control or Fox Live link they would be doing a “us also” approach which would lose face in that lucrative pandemic boom markets of medical practitioners and fund managers. I doubt we’ll see it go in a hurry but it will be slowly and quietly displaced by newer and better technology


It will be interesting if he keeps using the same bike at other races. One of my friend's suggested that it could also be a way of Specialized testing the waters to decide what length suspension travel would be appropriate for their next iteration of the Specialized Epic too.


















Jordan Sarrou compite (y gana) con la S-Works Epic EVO sin Brain


Más recorrido para Jordan Sarrou. El francés compitió, y ganó, con la S-Works Epic EVO de 110 mm de recorrido trasero




esmtb.com


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chase2wheels said:


> I’ve wondered when Spesh would officially drop the brain. Perhaps if sram trims down the weight of their new electronic suspension bits they came out with for long travel bikes?


The brain is interesting.

My experience with the brained Epic is that it not a particularly fun bike. The rear suspension works but it doesn't inspire confidence or risk taking. But I am open to the idea that an Epic with a brain is the fastest way around an XC course.

For me I found brain did an excellent job of preserving climbing geometry. The rear suspension always sagged the same amount no matter what was happening with the terrain. I never felt like was having to work to find a good climbing position. It was a bike I could efficiently climb on in technical terrain. At least as long as there was grip, the brain certainly didn't help find grip.


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## forward (Apr 7, 2016)

Nino bike check for cape epic 2022:


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Brad said:


> The problem Specialized created for themselves is the huge following of dentists, doctors and fund managers who buy into the Brain hype. They sell a lot of S-Works with Brain into that community despite most of their pro riders tuning the brain out to minimum settings or riding disguised Epic Evo bikes. To opt for SRAM flight control or Fox Live link they would be doing a “us also” approach which would lose face in that lucrative pandemic boom markets of medical practitioners and fund managers. I doubt we’ll see it go in a hurry but it will be slowly and quietly displaced by newer and better technology


I'm none of the listed professions. Still getting used to the brain (coming off an Oiz), but so far I like the shock brain, and really dislike the fork brain. I plan on replacing the fork brain with the regular sid damper. Living where I do (Park City, UT), I'd say 90% of the terrain is great on a hardtail, but there are definitely those moments where full squish is nice, and I think a hardtail-ized Epic is a pretty cool fit for that. It remains to be seen how I get on with the bike at actual races though.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

WR304 said:


> Specialized have launched their new S-Works Vent Evo XC / gravel shoe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That bikeradar post links to https://www.bikeradar.com/features/does-cycling-shoe-stiffness-actually-matter/ within it, which itself is referencing some research coming out of CU Boulder. In my mind, there are two expected effects of shoe stiffness: power transfer, and foot fatigue. The CU study suggests that stiffness doesn't really impact power transfer. But, something I notice every time I put on my flat pedal shoes for days at the park, is that my feet get so damn fatigued from having to keep structure around a flexy shoe. So similar to the flat-vs-clipless debate, I (and perhaps other racers) may prefer the stiffer (and clipless) shoe more out of laziness than out of power-efficiency increases.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I always opt for a stiff sole. The insoles provide enough cushioning. I replace those once a year and don’t have foot fatigue problems. Have the right arch support and forefoot cushioning and you’re sorted


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

bikeranzin said:


> I'm none of the listed professions. Still getting used to the brain (coming off an Oiz), but so far I like the shock brain, and really dislike the fork brain. I plan on replacing the fork brain with the regular sid damper. Living where I do (Park City, UT), I'd say 90% of the terrain is great on a hardtail, but there are definitely those moments where full squish is nice, and I think a hardtail-ized Epic is a pretty cool fit for that. It remains to be seen how I get on with the bike at actual races though.


The brain on the rear (in full open) is nice, gives just a little platform. I agree on the fork it’s awful. If I ride a non brain bike, I always feel it feels a little mushy pedaling. I‘m not a remote lockout person so I get along fine with a little brain action in the rear. My only complaint is it has reliability issues every iteration, well because suspension is not meant to be locked out.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I am curious to see how many 110-120mm bikes are at the start line this year. Although, I am not conviced that a 120mm bike is the fastest way around an XC course, I am pretty sure that a bunch of people are going be testing them in competition. Particularly, with the proiferation of realitvely light weight 120mm forks.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

A heavier, longer travel fork may lose you 10s on the climb, but if it saves you 10s on the descent AND you're in better condition at the bottom, that's a win for me.
That was my takeaway from trying Cushcore XC too.
But for both, the course would have to be suited to it.
More tools in the arsenal.


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## mrtahiti80 (Nov 6, 2021)

Comfort over speed. As long as you're comfy you'll be fast.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> A heavier, longer travel fork may lose you 10s on the climb, but if it saves you 10s on the descent AND you're in better condition at the bottom, that's a win for me.
> That was my takeaway from trying Cushcore XC too.
> But for both, the course would have to be suited to it.
> More tools in the arsenal.


I don't think it costs you that much on the climb, I also don't think it gains you that much on the descent.

Where I think it hurts you is on the transitions. I think you are less areo, I think higher centre of mass makes flats turns on grass harder, I think the extra travel absorbs a bit of energy on short sharp climbs.

I have a 140mm bike that has a pretty good XC position on it. It doesn't really hurt me that much on the climbs, and the descents have to be really agressive before it is faster. Where it does suffer, is on flat pedalling sections and easy on trails.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> I am curious to see how many 110-120mm bikes are at the start line this year. Although, I am not conviced that a 120mm bike is the fastest way around an XC course, I am pretty sure that a bunch of people are going be testing them in competition. Particularly, with the proiferation of realitvely light weight 120mm forks.


Also 3 position settings are making a comeback


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Well….
A dropper was used to win on the road today.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

And it was very apparent how the lower centre of gravity helped him make those corners when his rivals had to approach the descent with an extra bit of caution


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Blevs n Beers in yellow as expected, Nino and Lara over 4 min back after a puncture for Nino. Those tyres he’s using are just too fragile for this course but what do I know.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Brad said:


> Blevs n Beers in yellow as expected, Nino and Lara over 4 min back after a puncture for Nino. Those tyres he’s using are just too fragile for this course but what do I know.


On the Nino bike check video a few posts back, it is notable that they carry a pump, but no CO2.

Alos notable is that he runs a 4 piston caliper with Level levers. The caliper looks like a G2 Ultimate caliper.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

brentos said:


> On the Nino bike check video a few posts back, it is notable that they carry a pump, but no CO2.
> 
> Alos notable is that he runs a 4 piston caliper with Level levers. The caliper looks like a G2 Ultimate caliper.


They do have co2 in the saddle bag and back pocket. The pump is a back up.
He is using the G2 ultimate calliper, it’s much better suited to the long descents they will be facing this week. Easier to get the pads up to temperature and better pad life. They won’t get much more than todays stage out of the pads. Levels would be overwhelmed in the heat and the energy that needs to be absorbed today. According to BB Nino prefers the feel of the Level lever


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Nino has had another puncture and lost a further 2 min odd to the main group from which canyon has now broken away….


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Brad said:


> They do have co2 in the saddle bag and back pocket. The pump is a back up.
> He is using the G2 ultimate calliper, it’s much better suited to the long descents they will be facing this week. Easier to get the pads up to temperature and better odd life. They won’t get much more than todays stage out of the pads. Levels would be overwhelmed in the heat and the energy that needs to be absorbed today. According to BB Nino prefers the feel of the Level lever


I wonder if Sram chgs anything in the level lever as the hydraulic ratio between the 1 piston and 2 piston is surely different.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Brad said:


> Also 3 position settings are making a comeback


I've had this for almost 9 years and I love it!


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

peabody said:


> I wonder if Sram chgs anything in the level lever as the hydraulic ratio between the 1 piston and 2 piston is surely different.


 no nothing changes. I've done similar both ways. Guide levers with Level and Level levers with Guide G2. No change as both master cylinders displace similar amount of fluid


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

bikeranzin said:


> That bikeradar post links to https://www.bikeradar.com/features/does-cycling-shoe-stiffness-actually-matter/ within it, which itself is referencing some research coming out of CU Boulder. In my mind, there are two expected effects of shoe stiffness: power transfer, and foot fatigue. The CU study suggests that stiffness doesn't really impact power transfer. But, something I notice every time I put on my flat pedal shoes for days at the park, is that my feet get so damn fatigued from having to keep structure around a flexy shoe. So similar to the flat-vs-clipless debate, I (and perhaps other racers) may prefer the stiffer (and clipless) shoe more out of laziness than out of power-efficiency increases.


For mountain bike shoes with clipless pedals perhaps the main advantage of a stiff sole is that the surface area of a typical MTB clipless pedal, such as a Shimano M8100 SPD or Crankbrothers eggbeater is very small. That concentrates the pedalling force into a small portion of the shoe. With a soft flexible shoe sole that can cause major hotspots and foot pain that using a stiff carbon soled shoe largely eliminates. It may not give a massive advantage over one 50 metre sprint but being able to maintain pain free pedalling day after day after day in the stiffer shoe really adds up over time!

With your flat pedal shoes one option to consider is that you could put a stiff insole in the flat pedal shoe so it doesn’t flex as much to support your foot. Solestar do some insoles that are intended for that: 









SOLESTAR TOUR: High Performance Cycling Insoles


Want to feel power, stability and comfort while cycling? SOLESTAR TOUR insoles with a lighter fiberglass core to improve power transfer and efficiency. Shop now!




solestar.de


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

La impresionante Cannondale Scalpel que usará Avancini en la Copa del Mundo de Brasil


Henrique Avancini ha subido el listón de la personalización de productos para su campaña "Pedaling for a reason". Este año ha puesto en juego una Cannondale Scalpel con una decoración más próxima a obra de arte que a bicicleta convencional. Además, será la bicicleta que use en la Copa del Mundo...




esmtb.com


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

WR304 said:


> For mountain bike shoes with clipless pedals perhaps the main advantage of a stiff sole is that the surface area of a typical MTB clipless pedal, such as a Shimano M8100 SPD or Crankbrothers eggbeater is very small. That concentrates the pedalling force into a small portion of the shoe. With a soft flexible shoe sole that can cause major hotspots and foot pain that using a stiff carbon soled shoe largely eliminates. It may not give a massive advantage over one 50 metre sprint but being able to maintain pain free pedalling day after day after day in the stiffer shoe really adds up over time!
> 
> With your flat pedal shoes one option to consider is that you could put a stiff insole in the flat pedal shoe so it doesn’t flex as much to support your foot. Solestar do some insoles that are intended for that:
> 
> ...


Have you tried solestar insoles? The odd thing about them is they hold your foot in a valgus position which is counter productive to most peoples needs.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

peabody said:


> Have you tried solestar insoles? The odd thing about them is they hold your foot in a valgus position which is counter productive to most peoples needs.


I’m currently using a Shimano XC901 shoe with Solestar Kontrol insole and a 1.5mm varus wedge:










It’s from 2015 but this thread is where I bought lots of different cycling insoles to try out and see how they worked for me: (the historic pictures don’t work anymore.  )









Cycling Insoles


When pedalling my right knee points inwards towards the frame top tube. The inside of my knee gently rubs against the carbon fibre of the frame. This isn't a new thing as my knee has always pointed in when riding. A careful choice of frame (2012 Specialized Epic with a heavily dropped top tube...




www.mtbr.com


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

WR304 said:


> I’m currently using a Shimano XC901 shoe with Solestar Kontrol insole and a 1.5mm varus wedge:
> 
> View attachment 1976523
> 
> ...


Have you tried cleat or heel wedges? There are simple isometric tests you can do to check your wedging.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

WR304 said:


> I’m currently using a Shimano XC901 shoe with Solestar Kontrol insole and a 1.5mm varus wedge:
> 
> View attachment 1976523
> 
> ...


Have you sorted out that inward knee issue?

The problem might actually be a weak gluteus medius. For me that is the issue, and actually the primary cause of the back issues I have been struggling on and off with. Cyclist are pretty famous for this issue.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

My inward knees are from wonky ankle alignment.
My feet are rotated out and the outside edges are dropped.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More eye candy out of the Cape Epic









Bicis de los pro: Wilier Urta SLR de Fabian Rabensteiner, ganadora de etapa en la Cape Epic


Esta es la Wilier Urta SLR que ha usado Fabian Rabensteiner para ganar la etapa 6 de la Absa Cape Epic. Personalizada como campeón de Italia de XCM




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Same bike here...different color...









La Wilier Triestina Urta SLR de Wout Alleman en la Cape Epic al detalle


La nueva Wilier Triestina Urta SLR de Wout Alleman para la Cape Epic 2022 es todo un misil lleno de detalles.




www.brujulabike.com


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## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

LMN said:


> Have you sorted out that inward knee issue?
> 
> The problem might actually be a weak gluteus medius. For me that is the issue, and actually the primary cause of the back issues I have been struggling on and off with. Cyclist are pretty famous for this issue.


I recently wrapped up several months of therapy for a torn meniscus. My glutes are much stronger than they’ve ever been and magically I don’t get much back pain at all on the mountain bike anymore.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

LMN said:


> Have you sorted out that inward knee issue?
> 
> The problem might actually be a weak gluteus medius. For me that is the issue, and actually the primary cause of the back issues I have been struggling on and off with. Cyclist are pretty famous for this issue.


Yes, that thread about insoles was from 8 years ago. My foot has quite a high arch, placed barefoot on the floor the foot can roll inwards easily, causing the knee to roll inwards too. With the solid arch support of the insole stopping that inwards roll of the foot I’ve had much better pedalling stability and my knee when pedalling doesn’t go inwards much now.

I don’t get much in the way of back pain at all whilst riding. Lots of back extensions lying on my front help a lot with that.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There’s been a bit written about the Yep Podio dropper post, which apparently was used by the Scott SRAM team at points last year. 



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-yeps-new-featherweight-podio-xc-dropper.html



This dropper uses a joystick for the handlebar control. In this picture it’s visible inboard of the Scott Spark Twinlock lever by the rider’s thumb,

The modified Twinlock on this bike differs from the standard lockout lever too as it has shortened levers, with the red rubber covers on for extra grip that are smaller and take up less space than the standard Twinlock.


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## rapsac (Sep 26, 2004)

The podio is a nice dropper, I like it for my use.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

New Canyon Lux prototype out in the wild...









La Canyon Lux prototipo que ya usan Loana Lecomte y Andreas Seewald


La que podría ser la próxima versión de la Canyon Lux ya rueda por los circuitos. Loana Lecomte y Andreas Seewald han sido los privilegiados que ya están probándola




esmtb.com


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Factor have launched a new XC mountain bike called the Factor Lando. It looks a lot like an old style Scott Spark. 

The suspension travel is 115mm rear and 120mm front but apparently it can be also be run as a 100mm rear and 100mm front travel bike by changing the rear shock.

It was raced at the 2022 Cape Epic:









Factor Lando goes XC mountain bike racing on all-new full-suspension & hardtail


Factor races off-road with 2 all-new carbon Lando XC mountain bikes, a 115mm cross-country full-suspension & ultralight hardtail...




bikerumor.com


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This next one counts as equipment I guess.

I spotted today that at least some of the Cape Epic 2022 stages are available to ride in the Fulgaz cycling app on a turbo trainer now. The 2022 Cape Epic stage race prologue course is on there now to ride:

FulGaz | The Ultimate Indoor Cycling App | 14 Day Free Trial


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There’s a bike check for Pauline Ferrand Prevot’s BMC Fourstroke here:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-pauline-ferrand-prevots-winter-training-bmc-four-stroke.html



It’s actually the bike she raced at the Tokyo Olympics but with a 110mm travel Rock Shox Sid 35mm stanchion fork fitted.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

WR304 said:


> There’s a bike check for Pauline Ferrand Prevot’s BMC Fourstroke here:
> It’s actually the bike she raced at the Tokyo Olympics but with a 110mm travel Rock Shox Sid 35mm stanchion fork fitted.


It's not often someone runs a Mezcal as the grippier front tyre


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> It's not often someone runs a Mezcal as the grippier front tyre


That's my current short track setup, pretty good on a hardpack course.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More closeup shots of the Canyon Lux prototype









Loana Lecomte está compitiendo con un prototipo de Canyon ¿Lux 2023?


La Canyon de Loana Lecomte parece un prototipo de lo que podría ser la próxima Canyon Lux 2023




www.brujulabike.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/4-race-bikes-from-the-petropolis-xc-world-cup-2022.html


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

La Scott Spark RC ganadora de Nino Schurter, ahora sí, con ruedas Syncros Silverton SL


Las ruedas Syncros Silverton SL con llanta de 30 mm de ancho interno ya pueden presumir de haber ganando una Copa del Mundo de XCO. Nino Schurter las ha escogido, por fin, tras meses prefiriendo el modelo de radios tradicionales




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/tech-randoms-petrpolis-xc-world-cup-2022.html


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/tech-randoms-petrpolis-xc-world-cup-2022.html


I see reinforced Vittoria Terrenos....


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Changing tire pressure on fly? 



https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/in-race-tyre-pressure-management-system-to-be-used-at-paris-roubaix-by-team-dsm/



Yes, please!!


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I see Vittoria's horrible new logo. I hope they drop that so fast.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Changing tire pressure on fly?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On my Mtb yes please , on my road bike I’ve asked cannondale to bring back the headshok fatty improved


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

cassieno said:


> I see Vittoria's horrible new logo. I hope they drop that so fast.


Don't hold your breath on that.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Fugly...luckily I just bought a set of tan walls...


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Picking up from the other thread for 2022 XCC/XCO, I'll open it up.

Opinion:

120mm of travel, especially with a remote to take travel down to 80mm isn't slowing world cup racers down. And won't fatigue them more over the course of the season.

Go.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

brentos said:


> Picking up from the other thread for 2022 XCC/XCO, I'll open it up.
> 
> Opinion:
> 
> ...


I'll jump on the sure to be burning trainwreck! I'm going with: courses. I'm also going with: using the exact amount of travel necessary. Many of the MTB courses are the same...year after year. So I think a 100/100 (or even a hardtail) is perfect and 120/120 in unnecessary...but also it comes down to weight. What is the difference btw a Scott (limited by Twinlock to 80mm), a 60mm Supercal, or a 100mm Scalpel...but all three weigh about the same? I'd say: not very much.
But also, I imagine, that Nino could likely convince RS to provide him with a 100mm "pro tune" that looks exactly like the one that is 120 and it wouldn't matter anyways.

As new courses are introduced, I could see them making 120 a very reasonable option...but right now, I think it's it's largely overkill.

(Note: I'm talking about the 1% UCI WC guys...all of this development is GREAT for Joe Hacks like me...the new SparkRC is a MUCH better "daily driver" than the old one...just like most of the Tr version of everything else is mo' better for us that only have one (or even two) bikes).


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

Obviously durability is a huge consideration. To finish first, you must finish. But I'm curious to know in what areas XC riders are taking more extraordinary measures to lighten bikes. Parts that look like what we buy, but aren't, etc. Although there must be a healthy market for extreme weight-weenie stuff. 

Ahem, I'll just put my cheeseburger aside, because that's the most obvious.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

brentos said:


> Picking up from the other thread for 2022 XCC/XCO, I'll open it up.
> 
> Opinion:
> 
> ...


The extra 20mm of travel isn't slowing most people down just as the extra 40mm travel a 100mm travel bike isnt making it faster over an XC course.

I tested Supercaliber and a top fuel back to back last year. I climbed as fast (or slow) on either with similar calorie consumption over a 5km climb and similar times on the singletrack descent with similar tyres i.e the same mode tyre on both bikes Bontrager XR something.
which would I buy and why?

I'd probably take the TopFuel because I can't afford to own and maintain 2 high end mtb bikes at the moment. Having one bike that performs well everywhere is what I want and need. The SuperCal was more fun as its more nervous and provides more feedback. The TopFuel just feels like it wants to go more places and can be pushed harder at the limit on the descents. through flat single track the SC is sharper.
As an XCO platform only I'd take the SC just because it looks more....pro.

So for now my 2018 Scalpel still ticks all the boxes. A 110mm or 120mm Ocho is the next upgrade as soon as I can get my hands on one. already have 110 out back with the 190X51mm DPS and that doesn't hold me back even in the open position.
The biggest advantage of the 34 and 35mm forks is the ability to more easily accommodate a 2.4 mm tyre. Which three position high speed compression I can't see why an extra 20mm of travel will be slower because it isn't


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Don't want to chime in on the discussion which amount of travel is fastest, but the argument of accumulating fatigue over the course of a season is flawed. Spending energy is a necessity for living organisms. Recovery and coming back stronger is real! Otherwise you could stop training…


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chilla13 said:


> Don't want to chime in on the discussion which amount of travel is fastest, but the argument of accumulating fatigue over the course of a season is flawed. Spending energy is a necessity for living organisms. Recovery and coming back stronger is real! Otherwise you could stop training…


I’d argue it’s accumulating fatigue over the length of the race. At some point toward the trail bike spectrum it starts to hurt you. Could Nino win on a DH bike in XC?


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

No. The Spark is not a DH Bike. Differences in travel and bike geo come in grades not absolutes. Kjs in a race a measured at the pedals. We don't know much about energy expenditure during the downhills. Maybe a 120mm bike is saving more there than it costs uphill. Some might even argue that it is beneficial that you can spend more energy upill because …well… you can. A hardtail might be flipflopping all over the place and it might be impossible to put the power down.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chilla13 said:


> No. The Spark is not a DH Bike. Differences in travel and bike geo come in grades not absolutes. Kjs in a race a measured at the pedals. We don't know much about energy expenditure during the downhills. Maybe a 120mm bike is saving more there than it costs uphill. Some might even argue that it is beneficial that you can spend more energy upill because …well… you can. A hardtail might be flipflopping all over the place and it might be impossible to put the power down.


So if you’re the expert, at what point does the bike hurt you…give me exacts.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

There is no such thing as an "exact". You can give some answers when looking at the extremes. Neither will you win a pursuit race on a MTB nor a MTB race on a track bike. In between there is only vagueness and experience. There is good reasoning behind picking a longer travel bike for longer races. The margin of safety you get by added travel will outweigh the small efficiency loss of your transmission.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chilla13 said:


> There is no such thing as an "exact". You can give some answers when looking at the extremes. Neither will you win a pursuit race on a MTB nor a MTB race on a track bike. In between there is only vagueness and experience. There is good reasoning behind picking a longer travel bike for longer races. The margin of safety you get by added travel will outweigh the small efficiency loss of your transmission.


As usual a lot written but nothing said.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

peabody said:


> I’d argue it’s accumulating fatigue over the length of the race. At some point toward the trail bike spectrum it starts to hurt you. Could Nino win on a DH bike in XC?


so if you are the expert, at what point does the bike hurt your performance. A road bike would be the best for an XC race because it's lightweight, has no suspension (no accumulated fatigue), and has the most aero position.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Don't forget about the super low rolling resistance.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

cassieno said:


> so if you are the expert, at what point does the bike hurt your performance. A road bike would be the best for an XC race because it's lightweight, has no suspension (no accumulated fatigue), and has the most aero position.


I think his point is that, at some point, the bike very obviously becomes a liability. He's refuting the claim that 120mm is as energy efficient as 100mm, without evidence, but remember "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

Certainly there's evidence that suggests that the energy losses due to suspension are in the minimal/negligible range (albeit their statistical power is limited due to small-N). There's also evidence that suggests that WC XCO is not won on DH bikes (because there are no winners on such a bike), and the same can be said for Enduro bikes. So, there's evidence that a line does exist.

(That quote comes from Christopher Hitchens btw).


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

bikeranzin said:


> I think his point is that, at some point, the bike very obviously becomes a liability. He's refuting the claim that 120mm is as energy efficient as 100mm, without evidence, but remember "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
> 
> Certainly there's evidence that suggests that the energy losses due to suspension are in the minimal/negligible range (albeit their statistical power is limited due to small-N). There's also evidence that suggests that WC XCO is not won on DH bikes (because there are no winners on such a bike), and the same can be said for Enduro bikes. So, there's evidence that a line does exist.
> 
> (That quote comes from Christopher Hitchens btw).


well that line clearly does not exist at 120mm as evidenced by Scott Spark 120/120mm and 120/115mm Mondraker F-Podium win in the XCO on Sunday and a 110/100mm wins in XCC on Friday night. in both ladies and mens races


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I think the Orbea team was racing 120mm Oiz. The forks looked like they were 120mm 34s. 

I think the increasing use of a middle setting for shocks is making a 120mm bike more raceable. I had a 120mm Oiz without a middle setting and it wasn't a WC race bike but now that middle setting makes them pedal really well in 120mm form.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

The big challenge is things like frame and fork stiffness, and tire capability have to match travel and geometry. And all of those things make the heavier and heavier bikes are slower. Over a typical WC race for elite men it is estimated about 40s per kg and 60s per kg for women.

I have an Orbea Occam which is a 140mm travel bike. With a set of Aspens on it is no faster downhill than my 100mm Oiz. To really use that extra travel I need to run a proper trail tire, which is a fair bit slower up hill.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> I think the Orbea team was racing 120mm Oiz. The forks looked like they were 120mm 34s.
> 
> I think the increasing use of a middle setting for shocks is making a 120mm bike more raceable. I had a 120mm Oiz without a middle setting and it wasn't a WC race bike but now that middle setting makes them pedal really well in 120mm form.


yes they were using 120mm FOx 34's.
Speed Company racing also used the TR versions of the Oiz at the Cape Epic where the extra travel made it more efficient to pedal up those long rocky climbs. They used 3 position lock outs too but according to Georg they used the bikes in open open more often than not due to the preference for having an easy ride up and down. They only used the mid setting for long gravel road drags and the locked out position rarely and maybe that was for a sprint. Most of the riders are using the forks in 20% sag setting.
Cannondale Factory Racing used their 100mm travel Ocho's with a firm compression setting and an open setting, lock out was dialled back( as mine is also currently) They never use a full lock out. With the 2022 bikes they are using the 120mm Ocho in 120 or 110mm modes, 3 position high speed compression via the push to lock Fox lever and the same on the DPS. They may switch to the 120mm SE models later in the season or add it to their quiver. None of these teams would consider the longer travel if it was less efficient.
I was chatting to one of the trek sponsored U-23's on which he prefers to race XCO, SC or top Fuel....
"I'm playing with a 110mm SiD on the SC at the moment. I prefer the lighter SC for XCO because its more whippable (he whips the bike all over the place, Nino has nothing on this kid) i.e. fun, to ride. Top Fuel for training and marathon for sure. The SC , with its shorter rear travel sits more upright on the short steep climbs on the XCO courses." I found the last bit interesting.
Jordan Sarrou prefers the Epic Evo.
Matt Beers uses a 120mm Sid Ultimate 35mm on his Epic with rear brain setting dialled right out and 20% sag. 
So many pro riders wanting the stiffer and more compliant 120mm chassis up front in 2022.....
They must love being slowed down


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

There are two bikes out there which people (different people) have claimed to be inheriently slower, the Trek Super Caliber and the new Scott Spark. Coicidently they are the two bikes that won senior World Championships last year.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

I am racing three bikes at the moment: Mainly a Pivot M4SL 100/100, a Cannondale FSI with a 100mm Ocho and a Yeti ASRc 120/100. The difference between the rear suspension design on the Pivot and the Yeti is much more noticeable than the 20mm difference in travel. The DW link on the Pivot is way more stable, stiffer, racier, whatever… 
In 2018 and 2019 I raced the exact same XCM race under comparable conditions. Once on the Yeti and '19 on the FSI. I finished on the Podium on both occasions with almost identical times. I felt more upbeat on the FSI and decided that not even the weight difference (almost 3kg) was worth it. Ever since I raced fullsus in XCM races. XCO is pretty much course dependent. Biggest difference is tire choice. Forekaster/Forekaster is gold on muddy/rainy days as is Racekings front and rear when it’s bone dry.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

I am pretty sure that if Nino and the team told Scott that 100mm was faster then Scott would have made a Pro/Team model with 100mm travel.

It sounds a little like the people arguing against 120mm travel XC bikes have only ridden Trail bikes. The RS tune on the RC Spark looks a fair bit more supportive than the trail tune of say a Trance.

I think the weight difference is negligible at that level, when they are truly concerned about that they run HT.

With regards courses. They are in fact changing. Look at the XCO courses from last year and compare to the last time you saw them. Each race had more/harder features. I think the 120mm travel bikes give more efficiency and speed back on the downs than they take away on the ups. 

It's a bit like arguing against Dropper posts because of the fatigue of having to use your left thumb more often. It's still faster. Less time on course.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Can't find any pics while at work. Was Maxime Marotte riding a 100mm Blur with Fox SC34?
edit: Found a pic. Definitely SC34 fork. But was it 100mm rear?


https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/22360767/


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

westin said:


> Can't find any pics while at work. Was Maxime Marotte riding a 100mm Blur with Fox SC34?
> edit: Found a pic. Definitely SC34 fork. But was it 100mm rear?
> 
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/22360767/


I'm pretty sure he road the 100mm rear at Cape Epic (which surprised me) so I imagine he'd choose the same here.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

smartyiak said:


> But also, I imagine, that Nino could likely convince RS to provide him with a 100mm "pro tune" that looks exactly like the one that is 120 and it wouldn't matter anyways.


This SRAM Black Box programme link is from all the way back in 2009:









SRAM Announces Black Box Racing Roster - Mountain Bike Action Magazine


BlackBox Racing is SRAM’s premier proving ground for new performance products. The program was formally introduced at the Sea Otter Classic in 2000 and



mbaction.com





When it comes to the suspension on Nino Schurter’s bike it’s going to be custom tuned to the max. It could quite likely be running a prototype unreleased SRAM damper inside the fork and shock, plus the shim stack will be individually tuned for his preferences, so it may not have much in common with what comes as stock on a customer bike. 

It’s possible to adjust the travel and stroke of the fork and rear shock also so if he wanted to he could run it as a shorter travel bike, with less than 120mm suspension travel, which wouldn’t be immediately obvious from just looking.

Apparently Nino Schurter was running the old style Scott Spark (with the exposed rear shock) as a longer travel version for a season or two before the current Scott Spark (hidden rear shock) was released. That was in plain sight (with the rear shock visible) but hardly ever spotted.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

WR304 said:


> This SRAM Black Box programme link is from all the way back in 2009:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're right! He was running 120/110mm long before it was the standard. Same with geo, Scott and the Spark have been leading the way with other brands catching up on the current gen bikes.

I'd say it'll be more common for the race bikes to be 120/120 or 120/110 and ~67°HTA in the future than not. Courses are getting more and more technical and exciting and the riders are getting more and more complete.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

WR304 said:


> When it comes to the suspension on Nino Schurter’s bike it’s going to be custom tuned to the max.


Yep…my comment re: Nino and custom tune was a bit tongue-in-cheek 
I also thought he was running 120/110…I know I read it somewhere.


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## chase2wheels (Oct 16, 2003)

westin said:


> Can't find any pics while at work. Was Maxime Marotte riding a 100mm Blur with Fox SC34?
> edit: Found a pic. Definitely SC34 fork. But was it 100mm rear?
> 
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/22360767/


100mil travel version of the SC34.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

chase2wheels said:


> 100mil travel version of the SC34.


I thought the SC34 could only go down to 110mm. Not 100% on that though.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I know there are a couple of videos out there of people testing locked versus unlocked suspension. In my opinion these test are simplistic. I wouldn't expect there to be a significant difference when pedaling smoothly while climbing seated. Where there *might* be a difference is when attacking out of a saddle.

If I were going to do a test, it would be something like 8 x 30s max, 30s easy. Of course as always it is hard to decide where the difference come from.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

LMN said:


> I know there are a couple of videos out there of people testing locked versus unlocked suspension. In my opinion these test are simplistic. I wouldn't expect there to be a significant difference when pedaling smoothly while climbing seated. Where there *might* be a difference is when attacking out of a saddle.
> 
> If I were going to do a test, it would be something like 8 x 30s max, 30s easy. Of course as always it is hard to decide where the difference come from.


I agree that it's a minefield trying to discern the advantage from tests like the ones on YT.

There's a fair bit more to it when it comes down to speed on SingleTrack too. Some bikes are engineered with a heap of anti-squat so wouldn't rely on any lockout for efficiency, some like the Spark are engineered more on the active side and rely on TwinLoc for smooth climbing.

Personally I still think it's faster to climb in traction mode, or even open, on most technical climbing for most. More grip, smoother power application, but that's just one opinion. Lockout for tarseal climbs for sure.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

pinkpowa said:


> I see reinforced Vittoria Terrenos....


Terreno is a great tire, surprised it hasn't caught on before at the World Cup. The 2.2 is a little narrow in spec but would love to see a 2.35 out there. The fish scale center tread grips more than it looks---and I got a lot of looks at the pit in a 24 hour team race. Never had durability issues while racing it either.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

mail_liam said:


> I thought the SC34 could only go down to 110mm. Not 100% on that though.


It goes to 100. I ran mine at 100 for a little bit then put in a 120mm airshaft.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

MVDP uses the SC34 at 100mm

LMN I agree there will be a difference in bike response in out of the saddle sprints but I don’t think it will come at a higher physiological cost because the difference in displacement is still very small between a 100mm and 120mm XC /downcountry forks in open mode. In real terms it’s only the difference in sag and not the full 20mm. A fork tuned for trail or enduro might deliver some difference but not much.
One of my enduro buddies compared times on a loop in Jonkershoek using his hard tail and spec enduro. The difference was 3 seconds over 11km…
And the enduro was only 6sec slower on a long 4km climb 
There was a higher physiological cost though in the order of 110 calories to get the big bike around the course but these are two totally different bikes not two slightly different XCO bikes


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

LMN said:


> I know there are a couple of videos out there of people testing locked versus unlocked suspension. In my opinion these test are simplistic. I wouldn't expect there to be a significant difference when pedaling smoothly while climbing seated. Where there *might* be a difference is when attacking out of a saddle.
> 
> If I were going to do a test, it would be something like 8 x 30s max, 30s easy. Of course as always it is hard to decide where the difference come from.


Dylan's was seated and standing, locked out and open.
HR was higher for the standing ones with standing open the highest HR of the lot.
The times were very similar, but the physiological cost?

I agree, trying for a steady 250w and testing there isn't the way.
Testing full out, wringing every bit out of the bike and yourself and seeing what wattage/HR/time then would be better.
Would be more fun to watch than do though


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Dylan's was seated and standing, locked out and open.
> HR was higher for the standing ones with standing open the highest HR of the lot.
> The times were very similar, but the physiological cost?
> 
> ...



but there would a degradation in the repeatability of the efforts. Dylan's test was deliberately designed to maintain as much repeatability as could be possible


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

NordieBoy said:


> Dylan's was seated and standing, locked out and open.
> HR was higher for the standing ones with standing open the highest HR of the lot.
> The times were very similar, but the physiological cost?
> 
> ...


It really doesn't matter all that much if it's 250W or max effort. If you are losing energy, and I'm 100% sure you are (suspension heating up is pretty clear indicator part of energy ends there, and this energy needs to come from somewhere), when pedaling with non locked suspension, you are losing it at low and at high effort. Energy loss might be a bit higher at "wilder" ride, but it's there. And as I wrote, I'm 100% sure there is energy loss, question is just if it's big enough to be noticeable or to be a factor.
One thing though with max effort testing of this things... you can't do lot of repeats and get useful data out of it, as more then time and power, which basically needs to be exact same regardless of locked or unlocked suspension, HR is what matters. And with 10 or 20 repetitions at max effort, your HR won't be really valid for testing, as your fatigue will jump in and change test results.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Using only Power vs. Time isn't really a complete analysis, but it is the most repeatable. 

1. Heart Rate vs Time = Indicates relative system efficiency.
2. Heart Rate vs Power: Indicates Biometric efficiency. (inefficiency = body heat)
3. Power vs Time : Indicates bike efficiency. (inefficiency = shock heat, tire noise, wind noise, air heating)

#1 is the sum of #2 & #3.

Hardtails are likely better at #3. FS is likely better at #2. Thing is at race pace, #1 is pretty much predetermined, so it is the independent variable in all of this.


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

The Dylan Johnson video was silly. I don't care about marginal gains at endurance wattage that I can ride at for 4-5 hours. 

Does anyone really think that you can put out the same peak power and acceleration with the suspension unlocked versus locked? 

I can say for certain having done this multiple times across FS and hardtail, with FS locked versus FS unlocked versus hardtail, that I lose around 100w on my sprint with the suspension unlocked. It's the difference between 1250w and 1350w for me. Unsurprisingly, my peak wattage when I can do >1400w is on the hardtail. 

A 0-50kph test would be far more useful and better replicates the more critical moment need for suspension lockouts.


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## teleken (Jul 22, 2005)

I'm just a recreational rider but on a seated paved climb that I do often when I lock out front & rear of my 2020 SC Blur or my previous bike (SC Tallboy) my cadence picks up enough I shift to a harder gear.
Locking out the rear I notice a small increase in speed. Would it be enough to win a race? Who knows I don't race but at 59 it feels good to save some energy so I like my lockouts.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chilla13 said:


> Don't want to chime in on the discussion which amount of travel is fastest, but the argument of accumulating fatigue over the course of a season is flawed. Spending energy is a necessity for living organisms. Recovery and coming back stronger is real! Otherwise you could stop training…


It's not flawed, less than expected results will wreak havoc on an athlete's mental strength. I am saying a confluence of factors can hinder performance, there is a line of diminsihing returns and to me it looks like 120mm is part of the equation that is starting to cross that line.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

MessagefromTate said:


> It's not flawed, less than expected results will wreak havoc on an athlete's mental strength. I am saying a confluence of factors can hinder performance, there is a line of diminsihing returns and to me it looks like 120mm is part of the equation that is starting to cross that line.


Nope, it’s impossible to fathom that adding travel, slackening the HA a lot, going to 2.4 tires has ANY negative effects, not even a small percentage which is big in WC racing. In fact Brad is on here night and day proclaiming just that, which it seems he knows very little about a lot.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> Dylan's was seated and standing, locked out and open.
> HR was higher for the standing ones with standing open the highest HR of the lot.
> The times were very similar, but the physiological cost?
> 
> ...


My experience is that as long as I am pedalling smoothly I can work to a certain extent with open suspension, seated or standing. But that smoothness disapears, particularly out of the saddle, when I really start to go hard. And that point open suspension really bugs me.

I don't think though that open suspension is significantly less efficient, I think it interfers with your ability to put power to pedals. I think that when your bike is bobbing a certain amount of energy goes towards trying to stabalize the bike.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

LMN said:


> I don't think though that open suspension is significantly less efficient, *I think it interfers with your ability to put power to pedals. I think that when your bike is bobbing a certain amount of energy goes towards trying to stabalize the bike.*


I think the bolded bit is a totally valid explanation of types of inefficiency. It's in the same vein where I might argue that a singlespeed is inefficient because we don't always have enough strength to overcome the gearing and get bogged down, so it makes the power source (us) inefficient.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

MessagefromTate said:


> It's not flawed, less than expected results will wreak havoc on an athlete's mental strength. I am saying a confluence of factors can hinder performance, there is a line of diminsihing returns and to me it looks like 120mm is part of the equation that is starting to cross that line.


 What about 120mm creates additional fatigue that influences results? Can you structure an hypothesis around this. It’s ok if that’s your opinion grounded in whatever you chose to base it on but at least share the structure of your argument. 
I am not seeing 20mm additional travel affecting some of the riders I coach . I see things like extra work pressure, limited finances, illness , etc adding to fatigue. I see extra training and racing hrs adding to more accumulated fatigue but that is managed well through rest periods timed appropriately. I don’t see my riders going slower at all but instead the opposite since they moved to longer travel forks. Not all but at least 4 of them. When I look at their intensity over the same course on their older bikes vs their new bikes the intensity is similar for similar average power. 
Overall these weekend warriors are faster so I believe it is safe to assume that their new bikes has assisted to make them faster which after all is the point of a new bike. 
I would dearly love to find an algorithm that shows me definitively what suspension platform best suits a particular rider because that would be a coaching silver bullet. But simply believing that an extra 20mm will help the sky fall is a bit like Anne Elk’s Theory of Dinosaurs


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> My experience is that as long as I am pedalling smoothly I can work to a certain extent with open suspension, seated or standing. But that smoothness disapears, particularly out of the saddle, when I really start to go hard. And that point open suspension really bugs me.
> 
> I don't think though that open suspension is significantly less efficient, I think it interfers with your ability to put power to pedals. I think that when your bike is bobbing a certain amount of energy goes towards trying to stabalize the bike.


 I tried the 30s and 4 min Vi2 max efforts this evening out of the saddle and seated. No real difference except that I had to be more careful where my weight was over the bike. In open mode the fork runs more compressed so the rear wheel needs to be weighted to maintain traction. Maybe there was less leverage on the pedals, I’ll need to dive into the file later but it didn’t feel materially different.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

Brad said:


> What about 120mm creates additional fatigue that influences results? Can you structure an hypothesis around this. It’s ok if that’s your opinion grounded in whatever you chose to base it on but at least share the structure of your argument.
> I am not seeing 20mm additional travel affecting some of the riders I coach . I see things like extra work pressure, limited finances, illness , etc adding to fatigue. I see extra training and racing hrs adding to more accumulated fatigue but that is managed well through rest periods timed appropriately. I don’t see my riders going slower at all but instead the opposite since they moved to longer travel forks. Not all but at least 4 of them. When I look at their intensity over the same course on their older bikes vs their new bikes the intensity is similar for similar average power.
> Overall these weekend warriors are faster so I believe it is safe to assume that their new bikes has assisted to make them faster which after all is the point of a new bike.
> I would dearly love to find an algorithm that shows me definitively what suspension platform best suits a particular rider because that would be a coaching silver bullet. But simply believing that an extra 20mm will help the sky fall is a bit like Anne Elk’s Theory of Dinosaurs


The bikes moving to 120mm of travel aren’t doing it in isolation. The fork legs grow creating a stiffer chassis. The new Scott frame is a large box section structure to house the shock. When the first generation of carbon wheels rolled out I thought they were going to be great. Then I rode them and discovered what “too stiff” feels like. For a lighter weight rider I found them harsh and prone to deflecting off trail obstacles even with low tire pressure. Now compound that with a stiffer heavier fork, bigger tires and a frame that has to be developed (added material) to deal with higher forces from the fork and the shock due to more travel. Nino switched back to steel spokes. I am sure that was in search of compliance at the wheel. What does Kate weigh? 110-115lbs? She’s grappling with a heavier, stiffer chassis that I suspect is probably requiring more effort to control and more output and energy to race at her level. For the men perhaps less of an issue but I’d bet a number of the SC34s out on course are running 100mm of travel for responsiveness.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

MessagefromTate said:


> The bikes moving to 120mm of travel aren’t doing it in isolation. The fork legs grow creating a stiffer chassis. The new Scott frame is a large box section structure to house the shock. When the first generation of carbon wheels rolled out I thought they were going to be great. Then I rode them and discovered what “too stiff” feels like. For a lighter weight rider I found them harsh and prone to deflecting off trail obstacles even with low tire pressure. Now compound that with a stiffer heavier fork, bigger tires and a frame that has to be developed (added material) to deal with higher forces from the fork and the shock due to more travel. Nino switched back to steel spokes. I am sure that was in search of compliance at the wheel. What does Kate weigh? 110-115lbs? She’s grappling with a heavier, stiffer chassis that I suspect is probably requiring more effort to control and more output and energy to race at her level. For the men perhaps less of an issue but I’d bet a number of the SC34s out on course are running 100mm of travel for responsiveness.


Wouldn't that then imply that the additional stiffness of the 34 and 35mm SID are an improvement/advantage. Otherwise they'd opt for the more noodly, but lighter fork options? 

I think you're onto something with Nino's wheel choice. I haven't seen many riders on them. However, Pidcock won the Olympic Gold on them and he's tiny. He also didn't have any sponsor limitations so there's that piece of anecdata.

The Spark is still a light frame. It's always been very stiff in terms of power application/transfer. I think that lets them get away with more active suspension platform and makes the bike _potentially, not guaranteed_ faster overall when you factor up and down. The likes of the Cannondale and Specialized platform are more supportive in terms of anti-squat, but the energy cost of descending the chunk at the speeds these guys and girls so may outweigh the pedaling benefit. 

Luckily, it's an amazing time to be buying an XC bike. There's not too many bad options anymore. Every bike of the current generation will eat anything from a few years ago on a technical course like they race on. (IMHO of course)


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

mail_liam said:


> Wouldn't that then imply that the additional stiffness of the 34 and 35mm SID are an improvement/advantage. Otherwise they'd opt for the more noodly, but lighter fork options?
> 
> I think you're onto something with Nino's wheel choice. I haven't seen many riders on them. However, Pidcock won the Olympic Gold on them and he's tiny. He also didn't have any sponsor limitations so there's that piece of anecdata.
> 
> ...


of course they’re all good bikes. But at some point for some people, especially at that level things can get too stiff, too much towards the trail bike end of things. It’s not just 120 travel, it’s been a bunch of compounded chgs. What’s good for one isn’t good for all. Ninos wheel chg is a classic example of that.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

peabody said:


> of course they’re all good bikes. But at some point for some people, especially at that level things can get too stiff, too much towards the trail bike end of things. It’s not just 120 travel, it’s been a bunch of compounded chgs. What’s good for one isn’t good for all. Ninos wheel chg is a classic example of that.


Yes, but I don't think we've reached that point at all. The courses are getting tougher, and the riders much faster.

Have you ridden a 120mm XC/DC bike (Not trail bike)? They're super fast and responsive.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

peabody said:


> of course they’re all good bikes. But at some point for some people, especially at that level things can get too stiff, too much towards the trail bike end of things. It’s not just 120 travel, it’s been a bunch of compounded chgs. What’s good for one isn’t good for all. Ninos wheel chg is a classic example of that.


When he won at Petropolis Nino Schurter was riding the Syncros Silverton SL full carbon wheels. They have a distinctive shape where the carbonfibre spoke attaches to the rim that shows in this photo from the race if you zoom it in a bit:












https://www.syncros.com/gb/en/product/syncros-silverton-sl-30mm-wheelset





https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-jungle-boogie-petropolis-xc-world-cup-2022.html



Edit: Here’s a better picture showing the wheels close up: 

2nd Edit: If you look at the photo of his race bike there are a couple of other things to look at. The red travel o- ring on the Rock Shox Sid fork is right up at the top of the stanchion. That means the fork has been fully bottoming out on the landings from some of the jumps.

The seatpost on his actual race bike at Petropolis was a SRAM AXS wireless electronic dropper post, which is the heavy version. In the picture below the silver collar and battery visible by the saddle are the giveaways. In other races he’s gone with a lightweight cable operated dropper post (such as the Yep post a few pages back) but he’s chosen the AXS dropper for this race for some reason, despite the weight penalty.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Wouldn't that then imply that the additional stiffness of the 34 and 35mm SID are an improvement/advantage. Otherwise they'd opt for the more noodly, but lighter fork options?
> 
> I think you're onto something with Nino's wheel choice. I haven't seen many riders on them. However, Pidcock won the Olympic Gold on them and he's tiny. He also didn't have any sponsor limitations so there's that piece of anecdata.
> 
> ...


Nino used the wire spoke Silverton wheels for more compliance. Syncros have built him new carbon spoked Silverton SL which have more compliance.


peabody said:


> of course they’re all good bikes. But at some point for some people, especially at that level things can get too stiff, too much towards the trail bike end of things. It’s not just 120 travel, it’s been a bunch of compounded chgs. What’s good for one isn’t good for all. Ninos wheel chg is a classic example of that.


Yes and this is why riders have a large degree of freedom of choice. Jordan Sarrou uses an EPic Evo while Chrsi Blevins uses a std S_works Epic.
What is apparent is that very few of the WC XCO racers use alloy rims anylonger. There are plenty of carbon options that don't break the bank and the modern carbon rims have more compliance built in. Everyone can chose what they feel and or test is faster for their riding style. Some, Like Maxime, opt to use the SC34 is 100mm setting because they prefer the feel of the bike with the fork set up like that. The fact that other are racing 120mm versions faster should be enough proof that the extra travel isn't slower. What matters is the tuning of the fork,



WR304 said:


> When he won at Petropolis Nino Schurter was riding the Syncros Silverton SL full carbon wheels. They have a distinctive shape where the carbonfibre spoke attaches to the rim that shows in this photo from the race if you zoom it in a bit:
> 
> View attachment 1979515
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting the pics


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

mail_liam said:


> Wouldn't that then imply that the additional stiffness of the 34 and 35mm SID are an improvement/advantage. Otherwise they'd opt for the more noodly, but lighter fork options?
> 
> I think you're onto something with Nino's wheel choice. I haven't seen many riders on them. However, Pidcock won the Olympic Gold on them and he's tiny. He also didn't have any sponsor limitations so there's that piece of anecdata.
> 
> ...





Brad said:


> Nino used the wire spoke Silverton wheels for more compliance. Syncros have built him new carbon spoked Silverton SL which have more compliance.
> 
> 
> Yes and this is why riders have a large degree of freedom of choice. Jordan Sarrou uses an EPic Evo while Chrsi Blevins uses a std S_works Epic.
> ...


I'm going to sit back and watch the season unfold, you are reminding me more and more of a certain individual that alleged everybody else is stupid if they didn't use a 35mm stem for XC.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

MessagefromTate said:


> I'm going to sit back and watch the season unfold, you are reminding me more and more of a certain individual that alleged everybody else is stupid if they didn't use a 35mm stem for XC.


Not sure if that's aimed at me, but I'm making no such statements. I am only suggesting that the bikes are all awesome and none of these riders are being slowed down by their equipment.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Not sure if that's aimed at me, but I'm making no such statements. I am only suggesting that the bikes are all awesome and none of these riders are being slowed down by their equipment.


 Ditto and exactly that. 
A couple of years ago I’d not have have suggested 120 Km travel bikes for the reasons some are alleging; more compliance is slower. Having tested some of newer forks and rear shocks I can’t see why I wouldn’t opt for a scalpel SE over the Std 100mm bike. 
Other areas where I’m prepared to shift my views are around wheelbase. Two longer wheelbase bikes did really well in Petropolis under Bec McConnell and Anne Terpstra. For my courses I’m still not convinced that a 1200mm be in a size medium is a lot of fun but if it’s faster or least isn’t holding me back and is ore stable at speed then maybe there’s a mindset shift I need to make. Clinging to dogma doesn’t make me a better mountain biker


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Glad he gave into using the AXS post, it's just such a great product, despite the weight hit. 

In his Cape Epic setup he was using the blip box and Silverton 1.0s wheels. I'm hearing they're more compliant, but also could be repaired more easily. I'd prefer the SL which unless they caught a stick, probably would never break.






Now about that tire choice... Rekon Race EXO next year maybe?



WR304 said:


> When he won at Petropolis Nino Schurter was riding the Syncros Silverton SL full carbon wheels. They have a distinctive shape where the carbonfibre spoke attaches to the rim that shows in this photo from the race if you zoom it in a bit:
> 
> View attachment 1979515
> 
> ...


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

MessagefromTate said:


> I'm going to sit back and watch the season unfold, you are reminding me more and more of a certain individual that alleged everybody else is stupid if they didn't use a 35mm stem for XC.


not sur who this is directed at but no one is calling anyone stupid, at least not those advocating that a 120mm bike doesn't' cost you more time over an XCO course. There's no right or wrong and this is born out by the race results were a spectrum of bike ranging from 60mm to 120mm rear wheel travel with 100 to 120mm travel forks are all performing well enough to get their riders to the podium or top step.
There is debate around all aspects of how this travel is delivered at what cost with some supporting information, anecdotal or quasi scientific (sample sizes still to small to be great science).
Rather different to a debate relating to a black or white statement around stem length or clamp diameter being right or wrong.

PS: Oh there was another reason why more riders are fitting a longer travel fork....to raise the BB height


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

I was thinking about the lockout tests people have done that showed no difference between locked and unlocked on road. I’m not saying I disagree, but there is one thing neither spoke to.

Some pedal switches increase damping significantly, some actually lock out.

I wouldn’t expect increased damping to result in better efficincy…less in fact. Damping is what absorbs energy when a bike bobs. While the amplitude of shock motion with a climb switch engaged may be decreased, the damping rate is increased, shifting the motion restriction from spring force (low hysteresis) to damping (high hystereses).

A true lockout however would prevent damper motion and prevent energy lost to the shock altogether.

Neither presenter spoke to what type of lockout/climb switch their bikes employed.

I would expect very short travel, very low damping to be the most efficient. For years, suspension manufacturers have utilized increased damping to promote increased efficiency. Maybe the wrong approach?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I'm a Dylan Johnson disciple and his truly scientific approach is the cure for 99% of the Preaux conjecture on this forum. 

However he made a simple, basic error in his calculations:

Every true scientist has to stand to correction and there's a lot of lesser men who have a problem with that, but I doubt that Dylan does.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> I'm a Dylan Johnson disciple and his truly scientific approach is the cure for 99% of the Preaux conjecture on this forum.
> 
> However he made a simple, basic error in his calculations:
> 
> Every true scientist has to stand to correction and there's a lot of lesser men who have a problem with that, but I doubt that Dylan does.


 at the sake of repeating myself as this video was posted earlier. Peak Torque is 100% correct the power meter isn't going to show the physiological cost and Dylan talks to this in his video as an area that needs to be explored in a lab which then makes it hard to experiment.
HR and calories burned will make the picture more accurate.

Another distinct difference between Peak Torques experiment is the chosen bike. He's on a Hightower with trail tuned suspension while Dylan is on a 90mm travel Niner RKT RDO with XCO tuned suspension. Open on the RKT and Open on the Hightowers suspension is not the same. You will use more of your core to support that bike pedalling out of the saddle with it open than on the Niner. 
It is clear that more thought needs to go into test design but as a first pass Dylan’s is good and Peak Torques peer review asks appropriate questions


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Brad said:


> There is debate around all aspects of how this travel is delivered at what cost with some supporting information, anecdotal or quasi scientific (sample sizes still to small to be great science).
> Rather different to a debate relating to a black or white statement around stem length or clamp diameter being right or wrong.


I don't think any of us will find much science to support the various components/strategies people try at the elite level. At that level, whether its MTB, running, motocross, etc. there is a lot of N=1 experimentation and the gains and losses so subtle that some of the best athletes are also the best testers and N=1 experimenters. They are very sensitive to small changes that lesser athletes may not be sensitive to. I remember in 2015, Ken Roczen was getting dropped in pro motocross and a simple change in about 10mm of front end height and different triple clamps that changed front end flex turned him from a fifth place guy to a guy who couldn't be beat. But it took him almost a year to find that marginal gain. I can guarantee you no scientist would have found that marginal gain no matter how much funding was available to run "experiments." In the running world, the current 80-20 time spent in easy vs high intensity zones that all the elites pretty much use today was discovered through trial and error and competition Darwinism, not via controlled experiments done at places like Harvard. The scientist are still trying to catch up to explain why that split works. 

This is not to say I am anti-science. I am big on science when the experiments are clean and easy to design which is often not the case in competition where there is a race to discover marginal gains. Also, it's impossible to design large N experiments for certain strategies. Example: building base can take years and it would be impossible to run an experiment requiring subjects to spend a decade trying different methods to build a base. One scientific principle that I do rely on is that the burden of proof is always on the alternative hypothesis not the null hypothesis. 120 forks and 2.4 tires are the alternative hypotheses. Whether we reject the null remains to be seen and the evidence needs to be pretty overwhelming. Once the evidence is pretty clear that 2.4 tires and 120 forks are the way to go, I will equip my bike with these parts without hesitation.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

The null hypothesis is that 2.4" tires and 120mm forks are no different than any other option/combination.

The problem you have with trusting science may be that you don't really know what science is.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Then explain it to me oh wise one. What is an alternative and what is a null?


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

I already explained it. The null hypothesis is 'there is no difference' between the conditions being tested. The alternative hypothesis is 'there is a difference' between the conditions being tested.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Suppose you are a scientist. You start with a theory. The theory in this case is 2.4 tires are superior than 2.25 tires for World cup competition. Now setup your alternative and your null hypotheses. Teach me.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

tick_magnet said:


> Suppose you are a scientist. You start with a theory. The theory in this case is 2.4 tires are superior than 2.25 tires for World cup competition. Now setup your alternative and your null hypotheses. Teach me.


I am a scientist. The null hypothesis is that 2.4 and 2.25 tires are NOT DIFFERENT. The alternative hypothesis is that 2.4 and 2.25 ARE DIFFERENT. That's what statistical tests are assessing; whether a significant difference exists between the tested conditions.
If you go so far as to formulate your alternative hypothesis in a specific direction (i.e. 2.4 tires are faster than 2.25 tires), you would be bound to a different statistical test (one-tailed vs two-tailed tests).


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Why would it not be a one-sided test? The theory is that 2.4 tires are superior. The null is that they are not superior. The alternative is that they are superior. That was my point all along.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

You really should spend more time on Google. The null hypothesis is 'no difference'. Your misunderstanding doesn't change that fact.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Dude seriously......and you are a scientist? A one side test does not require a no difference. If the 2.4 is slower than the 2.25, I still do not reject the null.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

A one-tailed test only tests for the predicted direction. If the tires are slower, the stats doesn't tell you whether they are actually slower as opposed to not different.
A two-tailed test will answer that. Again, the null hypothesis doesn't change based on your misunderstanding -OR- your wrong choice of statistical test.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I am interested in whether the 2.4 is faster. As is everyone else here and as is Nino Schurter which is why he has experimented with the 2.4. Nobody is claiming that a 2.4 is slower (it could very well be but that is not really of any practical significance because everybody is already on 2.25s). What we are interested in is trying something new to see if it is faster. The 2.4 is the new. The 2.25 is what have we've already been using.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Well, that's the crux of defaulting to your null hypothesis. If there is no significant difference between 2.4 and 2.25, then there should be no reason to use 2.4, right?

Only if the 2.4 were actually slower could you make that argument (possible outcome untested by a one-tailed test). Even if the 2.4 and 2.25 were exactly the same (accept the null on a 2-tailed test), an argument could be made for intrinsic factors as to why the field has moved to that tire size overall.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Fair enough. If you want to throw in intrinsic factors, I could see a case for a two-tailed test. But in terms of testing the theory as I stated it without throwing additional criteria in there, a one-tailed test is sufficient.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

_If_ there are no penalties for the larger tire (either in controlled tests, lap times, etc), but the tires are less prone to pinch-flat (or flat in general), or allow a larger margin for error around rough terrain, or are more comfortable (less fatiguing), or allow a different suspension tune (perhaps related to tire psi)...

...if any of those things means a competitor is in a better position for contention at the end of a race, then simply looking at whether the tires are faster from a controlled test may be short-sighted. _If there's no penalty/difference on lap times or from a metabolic/energetic analysis, then why not use the larger tire? _


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## AndrewHardtail (Nov 2, 2021)

WR304 said:


> When he won at Petropolis Nino Schurter was riding the Syncros Silverton SL full carbon wheels.


On the subject of wheels, I noticed the Ghost women are still running those mag-style 6-spoke Bike Ahead wheels this year, but that type of design doesn't seem to have caught on with anyone else. Does that mean they perform pretty much the same as the typical spoked wheels, ie not bad enough that they'd ditch them but not good enough that other manufacturers are copying them? 

Apologies if this was covered last year, as I wasn't following the thread then.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Good data showing that bike A is faster than bike B is really hard to do. I am yet to see a study that I think satisfactorily shows a FS is faster than a hardtail.

Most of the test that people do just show that bike A was faster on a particular trail, under a particular rider, on a particular day. They are far from conclusive evidence one way or another.

In the end bike decisions are made by what feels fastest to riders. It is then tested in competition and adjusted on from there.

The fact that the 60mm trek went toe to toe with the 120mm Scott in competition should point out just how close in pace bikes are, that are significantly different on paper.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> _If_ there are no penalties for the larger tire (either in controlled tests, lap times, etc), but the tires are less prone to pinch-flat (or flat in general), or allow a larger margin for error around rough terrain, or are more comfortable (less fatiguing), or allow a different suspension tune (perhaps related to tire psi)...
> 
> ...if any of those things means a competitor is in a better position for contention at the end of a race, then simply looking at whether the tires are faster from a controlled test may be short-sighted. _If there's no penalty/difference on lap times or from a metabolic/energetic analysis, then why not use the larger tire? _


There is a weight or a durability penalty. You can’t go larger without gaining weight or losing durability.

The penalty of weight is hard to model. It is easy to calculate the effect of gravity but mountain biking involves constant acceleration and deceleration. Anybody who claims to be able to easily model that hasn’t fully explored the problem.

Personal experience is that I really like the new 2.4 tires but I do feel then on climbs. Not steady climbs but short punchy climbs I feel them. Particularly when I have ride back to back with a 2.25. Do the small gains with comfort, traction, and rolling resistance make up for the weight? I don’t know.


But if didn’t have a billion brand new 2.25 tires I would only be riding 2.4s


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

AndrewHardtail said:


> On the subject of wheels, I noticed the Ghost women are still running those mag-style 6-spoke Bike Ahead wheels this year, but that type of design doesn't seem to have caught on with anyone else. Does that mean they perform pretty much the same as the typical spoked wheels, ie not bad enough that they'd ditch them but not good enough that other manufacturers are copying them?
> 
> Apologies if this was covered last year, as I wasn't following the thread then.


When I rode with them earlier in the year I had a chance to sample the wheels and bike. The stand out feature of the Biturbo RS wheels is they're very light, around 1200gr for the set pretty strong and stiff. The steering feels more direct.
There are some Chinese knock offs around that weigh about 1900gr for a pair of wheels so those that are copying are not doing it very successfully.
The Biturbo's also feel very lively and responsive whereas the Chinese wheels feel far more muted.

I suspect they won't catch on fast at EU3000 per set and repair requires a specialist carbon fabricator.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> _If_ there are no penalties for the larger tire (either in controlled tests, lap times, etc), but the tires are less prone to pinch-flat (or flat in general), or allow a larger margin for error around rough terrain, or are more comfortable (less fatiguing), or allow a different suspension tune (perhaps related to tire psi)...
> 
> ...if any of those things means a competitor is in a better position for contention at the end of a race, then simply looking at whether the tires are faster from a controlled test may be short-sighted. _If there's no penalty/difference on lap times or from a metabolic/energetic analysis, then why not use the larger tire? _


Those are good points. We just got caught up in some semantics around hypothesis tests and I constructed a simple toy hypothesis so that you can show me how you'd set up a null and alternative. In any case, I agree. There is more to it than just raw speed. Other factors do matter. The problem though is that it is hard to envision controlled tests that factor all those nuances at a level beyond N=1.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

No worries, I was also an @sshole about it 


tick_magnet said:


> The problem though is that it is hard to envision controlled tests that factor all those nuances at a level beyond N=1.


Absolutely agree, which was why I hammered on the 'null'. Give me a wider tire that's 'not different' than a narrow tire (from some performance metric), but I feel more comfortable and confident on it, or it's more forgiving of my mistakes, I'll run it.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> No worries, I was also an @sshole about it
> 
> Absolutely agree, which was why I hammered on the 'null'. Give me a wider tire that's 'not different' than a narrow tire (from some performance metric), but I feel more comfortable and confident on it, or it's more forgiving of my mistakes, I'll run it.


It's really tough to compare, and I don't think you'd be able to see anything more "scientific" than rolling resistance on a drum.

Personally, I think, much like 120mm travel on the Spark etc, even if 2.4 tyres were measurably slower on the ups (I don't think they are unless it's smooth tarseal - same for the travel) they provide more grip, float, and potentially speed (or same speed for less effort) on the downs.

I thought there was already a rolling resistance benefit to the larger volume tyres (on non-smooth road/drum) but I can't find it so that may still just be anecdotal evidence too.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Also we should be careful throwing the term rolling resistance around loosely. RR is really the elasticity of a tyres material. The tyre that returns the most energy back to the environment is said to have less rolling resistance. A higher volume tyre doesn’t necessarily have lower RR. This is why Nino runs such thin skinned tyres in the 2.4 size. The tyres are more elastic which is what offers the lowered RR not the volume. Higher TPi , thinner rubber skin and lower tread blocks all make the surface of the tyre conform and rebound with less damping ie lower rolling resistance. The higher volume s more a comfort and traction benefit.
A bigger volume tyre with thicker casing and tread is going to have higher rolling resistance, heavier and reduce trail feel.
So the compromise is not so easy if speed is the objective.
To get the lower RR benefit one has to run the lighter tyre with associated increased puncture risks. But you’d be faster around corners and have a bit of braking traction and tractive effort due the higher footprint.
Throw on a heavier tyre and you have to exert more effort into the bike with higher physiological costs to over come the RR and gyroscopic effects in the twistys.
Swings and roundabouts


----------



## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Brad said:


> Also we should be careful throwing the term rolling resistance around loosely. RR is really the elasticity of a tyres material. The tyre that returns the most energy back to the environment is said to have less rolling resistance. A higher volume tyre doesn’t necessarily have lower RR. This is why Nino runs such thin skinned tyres in the 2.4 size. The tyres are more elastic which is what offers the lowered RR not the volume. Higher TPi , thinner rubber skin and lower tread blocks all make the surface of the tyre conform and rebound with less damping ie lower rolling resistance. The higher volume s more a comfort and traction benefit.
> A bigger volume tyre with thicker casing and tread is going to have higher rolling resistance, heavier and reduce trail feel.
> So the compromise is not so easy if speed is the objective.
> To get the lower RR benefit one has to run the lighter tyre with associated increased puncture risks. But you’d be faster around corners and have a bit of braking traction and tractive effort due the higher footprint.
> ...


It’s actually the hysteresis…and even the hysteresis between compounds and plies effects this too. Obviously a lot of other things effect RR too.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hysteresis is a common used word and is somewhat appropriate as it is defined as lag between input and output of system so let’s go with that. 
Shear plane between tread rubber and casing is another , compressive stress in the rubber and bending strength of the casing fibres etc. 

All adds up to a tyre compromise that dictates that you can’t have a low RR without tyre fragility (low weight low friction low traction. We don’t get something for nothing


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I suspect that the teams (at least the bigger teams) are starting to collect lots of detailed data on these things and using machine learning to generate insights into what tires/equipment is fastest in what conditions. I know this is already happening in motocross. Unfortunately, none of us plebs will ever get access to the results 😕


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

AndrewHardtail said:


> Does that mean they perform pretty much the same as the typical spoked wheels, ie not bad enough that they'd ditch them but not good enough that other manufacturers are copying them?
> 
> Apologies if this was covered last year, as I wasn't following the thread then.


I don't know if it's real or not, but I can't get over my assumption that they would have significant aero drag vs a wheel with standard bladed spokes. Air speed for spokes at the top of the wheel I nearly 2x the speed of rider, and those are of significantly larger cross section. Of course this is somewhat offset by the speed of 0 at the bottom, but aero drag is not linear with speed.

I even get hung up on this when it comes to Berd spokes.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More eye candy...









Bicis de los pro: Ghost Lector FS de Anne Terpstra


La Ghost Lector FS World Cup es una de las bicicletas más llamativas de la parrilla de la Copa del Mundo. No solo por sus ruedas de palos de Bike Ahead, también por el diseño de su cuadro y, sobre todo, por su geometría




esmtb.com


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Did Nino avoid the rock garden every lap at Petropolis because of more fragile tires?
Perhaps after learning by experience in South Africa
How much slower was the Petropolis B Line?


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

brentos said:


> I don't know if it's real or not, but I can't get over my assumption that they would have significant aero drag vs a wheel with standard bladed spokes.



I have zero data to support this assertion, but IMHO the aerodynamics of the spokes are largely irrelevant when you factor in the knobby tire beating the air before it even arrives at the spokes.

A looooooong time ago I created the ~2500-mile Great Divide Race. Reasoning that aerodynamics were going to play a big part in an event that long, and wanting to dot every i and cross every t, I sourced a set of Zipp 404 deep section rims. I picked the brains of the engineers at Zipp for a minute before lacing them. I wanted to know if there were meaningful gains in 0x, 1x, or 2x lacing, and if they thought there was much sense in going with bladed spokes.

They (very politely and respectfully) laughed at my questions, basically telling me that the differences in all of those options were basically lost in the noise once you factored in the size and knobbiness of the tire at the leading edge.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

brentos said:


> I don't know if it's real or not, but I can't get over my assumption that they would have significant aero drag vs a wheel with standard bladed spokes. Air speed for spokes at the top of the wheel I nearly 2x the speed of rider, and those are of significantly larger cross section. Of course this is somewhat offset by the speed of 0 at the bottom, but aero drag is not linear with speed.
> 
> I even get hung up on this when it comes to Berd spokes.


Nope, probably better than wire or flat wire spokes due to the more aero profile. The spokes at the Hub flanges are the most trouble at creating drag and the Biturbo's have no flanges. Then the fat knobbie tyre creates enough turbulent air behind it for the spokes drag to be largely irrelevant anyway




mikesee said:


> I have zero data to support this assertion, but IMHO the aerodynamics of the spokes are largely irrelevant when you factor in the knobby tire beating the air before it even arrives at the spokes.
> 
> A looooooong time ago I created the ~2500-mile Great Divide Race. Reasoning that aerodynamics were going to play a big part in an event that long, and wanting to dot every i and cross every t, I sourced a set of Zipp 404 deep section rims. I picked the brains of the engineers at Zipp for a minute before lacing them. I wanted to know if there were meaningful gains in 0x, 1x, or 2x lacing, and if they thought there was much sense in going with bladed spokes.
> 
> They (very politely and respectfully) laughed at my questions, basically telling me that the differences in all of those options were basically lost in the noise once you factored in the size and knobbiness of the tire at the leading edge.


same answers I got. A certain bottom bracket expert named Hambini has a few good videos up on youtube on the matter. Biggest aero grain is you in a good low profile position, a good low drag helmet, and a skin suit with aero socks and shoe covers. The rest is marginal gains


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

ccm said:


> Did Nino avoid the rock garden every lap at Petropolis because of more fragile tires?
> Perhaps after learning by experience in South Africa
> How much slower was the Petropolis B Line?


It was as fast if not faster, and you could hit it constantly plus no risk for puncture


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

ccm said:


> Did Nino avoid the rock garden every lap at Petropolis because of more fragile tires?
> Perhaps after learning by experience in South Africa
> How much slower was the Petropolis B Line?


Agree with Raikz, I think he'd learned from practice/the women's race that there was no time lost and significant less risk of slipping. He never even seemed to hurry through the B-Line.

They need to make more effort to make A and B-Lines more different in terms of times/difficulty.

Nino has been running the same Aspen 2.4's for several years now and other than Snowshoe hasn't really had significant issues for a while (he used to have terrible flat issues). I don't rate the Aspen's personally but it was probably more an issue of needing to run an Exo casing of something in SA. Vittoria used to make South African specific versions of the 2.25 XC tyres with extra protection. 

It'd be interesting to go back and look at a break down of what tyres the teams were running that had the most issues. The 2.35 TNT options seem good, I wonder what casing the prototype Schwalbe tyres were. They were SkinWall which usually means minimal protection, but I don't remember seeing them on the side of the road excessively. (I hope that Schwalbe are "prototyping 2.4" high volume versions of Ray and Ralph).


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> More eye candy...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is such a gorgeous bike up close.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Agree with Raikz, I think he'd learned from practice/the women's race that there was no time lost and significant less risk of slipping. He never even seemed to hurry through the B-Line.
> 
> They need to make more effort to make A and B-Lines more different in terms of times/difficulty.
> 
> ...


Anne Terpstra and the Ghost team has been using the same Aspen ST for a couple of seasons. It's a surprisingly grippy tyre and according to their team Mech the wear is pretty decent (probably because there isn't much to wear away...)
When I tried the bike the tyre did feel really compliant. Partly due to the soft and thin rubber compound and tread


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Brad, is the Pirelli XC RC still your go to tire or have you switched to something you like better? Any updated info?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

AndrewHardtail said:


> On the subject of wheels, I noticed the Ghost women are still running those mag-style 6-spoke Bike Ahead wheels this year, but that type of design doesn't seem to have caught on with anyone else. Does that mean they perform pretty much the same as the typical spoked wheels, ie not bad enough that they'd ditch them but not good enough that other manufacturers are copying them?
> 
> Apologies if this was covered last year, as I wasn't following the thread then.


Bike Ahead Composites are a sponsor of the Ghost MTB team. They’re paid to ride that equipment so there probably isn’t much choice in what wheels the individual riders can use. It’s the flip side of being a professional rider and being a mobile advertisement for your sponsors. They have less freedom to choose equipment than an amateur rider would.

A good example of that would be Stephane Tempier on the Decathlon Rockrider team. That bike probably isn’t the best bike on the XC World Cup start line but he gets paid money to ride it so it has to do.

Nino Schurter on the Scott SRAM team is a bit different in that the Syncros Silverton SL full carbon wheels and Syncros Silverton 1.0 spoked wheels are still part of the same Syncros product family so there isn’t a sponsorship conflict for him by switching between them.










With the Bike Ahead Composites wheels it’s hard to say how good they are without riding them. Unless they’re exceptionally awful (which they don’t seem to be) then it’s usually possible to ride around any issues. A very stiff wheel for example might take a while to get used to but give it a few weeks or months and it will be second nature to get used to the handling characteristics.










The Bike Ahead Composites have fewer spokes than a standard wheel, which should improve their aerodynamics, but then the shaping of the 6 carbon fibre spokes and the whole section around the hub seems blocky and not shaped anything like aero road or track wheels. They look like a BMX mag wheel, only made in carbon fibre:

Skyway 6 spoke BMX Mag wheels:










A couple of examples of specific aero shaping are this Corima 5 spoke track wheel









Carbon wheel 5 Spoke


CORIMA's spokes wheels are among the best on the market. Widely tested in training or competition, the CORIMA 5-spoke wheel will accompany you in your quest for speed. It will be heavier but also more rigid than a 4-spoke wheel.




www.corima.com















or this Black Inc 5 spoke road wheel:

Black Inc Five Wheelset Clincher | Factor Bikes


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

A bit more on the Bike Ahead Composites wheels: 

The 2014 and earlier versions of the carbon wheels were actually a smoother more flowing shape. The angular shape on the carbon wheels was a redesign in 2015, presumably making the newer wheels a bit lighter and maybe stiffer but not aero.

In the comments of this bikerumor article is a quote regarding the aerodynamics from Bike Ahead Composites:

_“The main advantage of our wheels is the combination of lightweight and a superb lateral stiffness. So the stiffness to weight ratio is unmatched from any conventional spoked wheel on the market
…
*Our biturboROAD wheelset respects the laws of aerodynamics, but it is no aero time trial wheelset.* What I mean is the fact, that the wheelset is a perfect allrounder on the road with a superb stiffness to weight ratio.” *Bike Ahead*_










EB15: Bike Ahead's 1kg AC One XC Wheelset, plus more for Road and Trail


Bike Ahead showed us what they think may be the lightest production mountain bike wheelset ever made. The cross country AC One wheels are based…




bikerumor.com


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

The Ghost team have the option to use the
Two Six
Three zero
Biturbo RS
Wheelsets
They opted for the biturbo due to the reduced maintenance (don’t and can’t true them) which means less equipment to cart around race to race and frees up the mechanics time at the race to focus on the rest of the bikes. If they break one it gets replaced. According to Tom they haven’t broken any yet.
There’s no consession to aero dynamics but having ridden the bike in some wind the wheel felt more stable and less draggy in cross winds, compared to my conventional carbon wheels, which is another advantage for the ladies. As far as straight line speed is concerned they had no trouble dropping the group on most of the open road descents where the speed was above 40km/hr. They spent a few weeks testing equipment at the South Africa training camp and decided they preferred the BiturboRS .
Incidentally they were nervous about taking that wheel option due to the cost but Bike Ahead were so confident in the wheels they said that If anything should happen they would replace the wheels so the team use these wheels all the time. They don’t train on the two six or three zero.

Also the wheels are not so “blocky “ at the hub:




















































Considering that aerodynamics is not the primary objective the design is quite smooth with soft transitions and the spoke’s trailing edges are not square even if the leading edge is blunt (not a bad thing)


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

tick_magnet said:


> Brad, is the Pirelli XC RC still your go to tire or have you switched to something you like better? Any updated info?


Yes most definitely. I've got a set of the 2.4's as well now so I going to fit them before my next XCO race and give the larger volume a try.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Brad said:


> The Ghost team have the option to use the
> Two Six
> Three zero
> Biturbo RS
> ...


The typical mtb wheel is a shallow box section rim with spokes. Even if the Bike Ahead Composites wheels aren’t as aero as a deep section road time trial wheel they could still be quicker than a shallow box section spoked mtb wheel. There’s no published comparisons that I could see to compare against for the Bike Ahead wheel.

I’m actually quite surprised that the 6 spoke carbon wheels are allowed to be used in the UCI World Cup races at all. That style of solid carbon spoke wheels has been banned from use in UCI road racing for a long time now, which is one reason why there aren’t that many other companies making similar wheels nowadays I guess.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

The UCI has weight limits in road racing for safety too...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This Alex Dowsett video is about the Black Inc 5 spoke road wheels, rather than the Bike Ahead Composites 6 spoke wheels. He talks a bit about both the feel and handling differences between the 5 spoke to a spoked wheel but also why some of the design features of the wheel are the way they are too:





 
There’s not much in depth about the German Bike Ahead wheels anywhere that I could find. It could be like some other stuff where the information is out there but if it’s not English language it doesn’t show up in online searches.


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## chase2wheels (Oct 16, 2003)

Brad said:


> The Ghost team have the option to use the
> Two Six
> Three zero
> Biturbo RS
> ...


Great post, and beautiful wheels. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> This Alex Dowsett video is about the Black Inc 5 spoke road wheels, rather than the Bike Ahead Composites 6 spoke wheels. He talks a bit about both the feel and handling differences between the 5 spoke to a spoked wheel but also why some of the design features of the wheel are the way they are too:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great vid thaks for sharing! I guess conceptually the Black inc are similar in design philosophy and objectives, and end up with similar features.

I was going through some notes I captured after riding the Ghost.
"the front wheel stiffness adds steering precision especially coming off a drop off and then turning while suspension is still recovering. That steering vagueness present in a spoked wheel as the rim recovers its shape after the impact is not apparent with the Biturbo RS. You land the drop and you lean into the turn. the bike follows. There is also less flex in the fork due to the hub stiffness and the 20mm flat faced end caps add stiffness to the fork and hub interface. The interface between rim to hub to fork to handlebar is noticeably more direct without a loss in comfort. MUST HAVE!" I made some notes on the bike itself as well but the wheel stiffness in steering, compression and the rear under initial acceleration felt really good. Whether these translate into lap time is anybodies guess.
Hopefully some high speed film footage from a world cup will pop up on the internet this year that can show the wheel flex and fork twisting that takes place off the big drops and cross fingers the producer thinks to capture the different riders on different types of equipment (wheel, forks bars) so we can see the flex in these parts. PinkBike does a silly huck the bike during their bike reviews so something similar to this would be interesting to illustrate the difference. Sometimes even in those silly suspension movement videos wheel flex is evident. Alex Dowsett felt the difference on a road bike and I can vouch that it is very very noticeable on a MTB.
Even when I replaced my 23mm Hollowgram rims with 27mm Internal width Carbon rims the improvement in wheel stiffness did a lot for my confidence through rock gardens and dropoffs higher than half a metre. There is a noticeable improvement in wheel lateral and torsional stiffness. I could run the fork a little firmer for similar wheel tracking accuracy.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> The typical mtb wheel is a shallow box section rim with spokes. Even if the Bike Ahead Composites wheels aren’t as aero as a deep section road time trial wheel they could still be quicker than a shallow box section spoked mtb wheel. There’s no published comparisons that I could see to compare against for the Bike Ahead wheel.
> 
> I’m actually quite surprised that the 6 spoke carbon wheels are allowed to be used in the UCI World Cup races at all. That style of solid carbon spoke wheels has been banned from use in UCI road racing for a long time now, which is one reason why there aren’t that many other companies making similar wheels nowadays I guess.


There are many UCI rules that do not apply to MTB. The use of carbon spoked wheels like the BikeAhead is one mostly because MTB is not a peloton format. However I have seen some horrific accidents involving handles, thorasic trauma, stcks and lower leg trauma and brake levers and hand and arm trauma. I've also seen a finger tip getting removed by a brake rotor and a forearm getting sliced by a spinning disc rotor but never has there been a consideration to prevent these technologies whereas in road socks are a regulated item..... :/
MTB's can no longer use a solid disc wheels or drop handlebars thanks to Mr. Tomac LOL but the saddle nose isn't restricted from being clsoer than 5cm from the centre of the BB. 
In mTB XCO you're not allowed to race sanctioned events in sleeveless jerseys..


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> Great vid thaks for sharing! I guess conceptually the Black inc are similar in design philosophy and objectives, and end up with similar features.
> 
> I was going through some notes I captured after riding the Ghost.
> "the front wheel stiffness adds steering precision especially coming off a drop off and then turning while suspension is still recovering. That steering vagueness present in a spoked wheel as the rim recovers its shape after the impact is not apparent with the Biturbo RS. You land the drop and you lean into the turn. the bike follows. There is also less flex in the fork due to the hub stiffness and the 20mm flat faced end caps add stiffness to the fork and hub interface. The interface between rim to hub to fork to handlebar is noticeably more direct without a loss in comfort. MUST HAVE!" I made some notes on the bike itself as well but the wheel stiffness in steering, compression and the rear under initial acceleration felt really good. Whether these translate into lap time is anybodies guess.
> ...


Interesting. I know a lot of racers who are desprately searching for ways to make their wheels flex more. I know in Enduro racing some teams still prefer aluminum wheels for race day because they don't get knocked off line as easily.


----------



## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> Interesting. I know a lot of racers who are desprately searching for ways to make their wheels flex more. I know in Enduro racing some teams still prefer aluminum wheels for race day because they don't get knocked off line as easily.


I’d like too see more development on the ZIPP single wall rim for an xc wheel.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

I think also that the lack of vertical flex is a negative thing but i haven't tried any of those. I had lightweights on my road bike but there is another story, you don't need that flex.


----------



## uintah (Apr 21, 2020)

mikesee said:


> I have zero data to support this assertion, but IMHO the aerodynamics of the spokes are largely irrelevant when you factor in the knobby tire beating the air before it even arrives at the spokes.
> 
> A looooooong time ago I created the ~2500-mile Great Divide Race. Reasoning that aerodynamics were going to play a big part in an event that long, and wanting to dot every i and cross every t, I sourced a set of Zipp 404 deep section rims. I picked the brains of the engineers at Zipp for a minute before lacing them. I wanted to know if there were meaningful gains in 0x, 1x, or 2x lacing, and if they thought there was much sense in going with bladed spokes.
> 
> They (very politely and respectfully) laughed at my questions, basically telling me that the differences in all of those options were basically lost in the noise once you factored in the size and knobbiness of the tire at the leading edge.


Out of curiosity, how wide of a tire did you mount on the 404's back then?


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Interesting. I know a lot of racers who are desprately searching for ways to make their wheels flex more. I know in Enduro racing some teams still prefer aluminum wheels for race day because they don't get knocked off line as easily.


ditto, mostly Enduro and DH guys though.
On the Biturbo's there is a bit of vertical compliance built into the rim but not as much as there would be with a wire spoke wheel. So it may be that the stiffness is not to everyone's liking hence the empty queue of XCO rider lining up for a set


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

My favorite rim for competition was the old Stans Aluminum Crest wheels. You could just smash through rock gardens on those things. While they flexed an bended all over the place you and your bike would keep going in a nice straight line.

My wife raced a set at the 2016 olympics, judging by the massive dents in them if she had been racing carbon wheels should have flatted out. But on those wheels she could get away with some really big errors and still keep racing.

I have to say though, I really appreciate the fact that I am no longer constantly relacing wheels.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> My favorite rim for competition was the old Stans Aluminum Crest wheels. You could just smash through rock gardens on those things. While they flexed an bended all over the place you and your bike would keep going in a nice straight line.
> 
> My wife raced a set at the 2016 olympics, judging by the massive dents in them if she had been racing carbon wheels should have flatted out. But on those wheels she could get away with some really big errors and still keep racing.
> 
> I have to say though, I really appreciate the fact that I am no longer constantly relacing wheels.


The Stans Olympic Rims were my favourite as I was under the weight limit. A friend bought a used pair off me in 2007 and within 3weeks they were ready for recycling. He weighed 90kg.
I still have a set of Crest in26 inch built onto XTR M965 hubs which I’m planning to use for a serious upgrade for my 9yr olds bike. When folks come to me for coaching for events like cape epic and turn up with $10000 Sworks I advise them to get a cheaper wheel set thats more forgiving than the roval. But nope, they have to have the best and most expensive bike an investment banker can buy and that’s what they use to learn how to Mtb in prep for the next cape epic. 
A well built alloy rim on good hubs and db spokes are the best wheels to build confidence on, cheap to fix too


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Brad said:


> There are many UCI rules that do not apply to MTB. The use of carbon spoked wheels like the BikeAhead is one mostly because MTB is not a peloton format. However I have seen some horrific accidents involving handles, thorasic trauma, stcks and lower leg trauma and brake levers and hand and arm trauma. I've also seen a finger tip getting removed by a brake rotor and a forearm getting sliced by a spinning disc rotor but never has there been a consideration to prevent these technologies whereas in road socks are a regulated item..... :/
> MTB's can no longer use a solid disc wheels or drop handlebars thanks to Mr. Tomac LOL but the saddle nose isn't restricted from being clsoer than 5cm from the centre of the BB.
> In mTB XCO you're not allowed to race sanctioned events in sleeveless jerseys..


UCI rules are always a minefield!

Talking about brake rotor injuries it was the 2022 Paris Roubaix cobbled road race last weekend. Go back a few years and there was lots of controversy about introducing disc brake rotors into mass crashes, calling for rounded edges on the rotors, rotor covers etc, which was then largely discounted. In both the men’s and women’s races last weekend there were some crashes where the riders fell and took deep cut injuries as a result of the disc brake rotors on competitors bikes. I was left wondering what happened to those rounded edges?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Duke carbon rims are quite a popular choice for handbuilt World Cup XC wheels. Mathieu Van Der Poel used them last year amongst others.

These tubeless rims have a rim profile with a raised bead lock but then also a dip to help hold the tubeless tyre on the hookless rim. The "Burp Free System" in the image below. A lot of carbon MTB rims don't have this, DT Swiss, Specialized etc currently don't use this profile.

It's one of those things that I was quite interesting.









Technology


TECHNOLOGY Asymmetric (Offset) profile By offsetting, we can increase the wheel’s lateral strength and its stability without adding weight. Rim drillings are off-centre to improve bracing an…




www.duke-racingwheels.com


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

I feel quite confident with my dt swiss xrc 1200 rims(while not with their hubs) and also with my older rovals sl's. Dt are now 3 season wheels and i have hit the rims like tons of times, i had a small crack only in front, still going. Rovals similar! (In the past i had a pair of tufo, one hit and the rim broke in pieces).


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I currently have two sets of Stan's Crest CB7 carbon rims with Sapim Laser spokes (28) and DT Swiss 240 hubs. While the rims are not wide (23mm internal) for today's standards, the wheels are very forgiving and I could ride rough terrain all day. They flex when they have to, and don't when they shouldn't.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> UCI rules are always a minefield!
> 
> Talking about brake rotor injuries it was the 2022 Paris Roubaix cobbled road race last weekend. Go back a few years and there was lots of controversy about introducing disc brake rotors into mass crashes, calling for rounded edges on the rotors, rotor covers etc, which was then largely discounted. In both the men’s and women’s races last weekend there were some crashes where the riders fell and took deep cut injuries as a result of the disc brake rotors on competitors bikes. I was left wondering what happened to those rounded edges?



All new SRAM rotors have rounded edges, I’m not sure about the Shimano rotors. Even so I don’t think the rounded edges are going to help because a falling rider hits the rotor with a lot of force and the friction will hear the edge to the point wheee it will cut through skin.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Brad said:


> All new SRAM rotors have rounded edges, I’m not sure about the Shimano rotors. Even so I don’t think the rounded edges are going to help because a falling rider hits the rotor with a lot of force and the friction will hear the edge to the point wheee it will cut through skin.


Assuming they don't also touch a spoke or 2 while their arm is on the rotor...
GCN did a test of that 
Spin a wheel up, stick a sausage on the rotor.
Spin the wheel up, stick a sausage in the spokes...


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Lets keep the eye candy rolling...









Bicis de los pro: BMC Fourstroke de Titouan Carod en Brasil


La BMC Fourstroke de Titouan Carod, con su espectacular acabado con el carbono "al aire"




esmtb.com


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

carlostruco said:


> Lets keep the eye candy rolling...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting they pictured it with a rigid post and not their proprietary up and down by switch one.

Lovely looking bike!


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

mail_liam said:


> Interesting they pictured it with a rigid post and not their proprietary up and down by switch one.
> 
> Lovely looking bike!


Isn't that dropper post pictured there??


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Raikzz said:


> Isn't that dropper post pictured there??


Looks like you're right! I couldn't (still can't really) see the post. I can see the remote though.

I'm no BMC fan so haven't looked much at them. Just heard of the clever post. Looks slick.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

the post pictured uses a lighter weight carbon shaft. Probably a 2023 option to extract more $$$ from our enlightened wallets


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

That BMC is EXTREMELY attractive! It is one of the best looking MTBs I've seen...ever. Hopefully, PFP doesn't get one and cover it in duct tape! 😬


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Brad said:


> The Stans Olympic Rims were my favourite as I was under the weight limit. A friend bought a used pair off me in 2007 and within 3weeks they were ready for recycling. He weighed 90kg.
> I still have a set of Crest in26 inch built onto XTR M965 hubs which I’m planning to use for a serious upgrade for my 9yr olds bike. When folks come to me for coaching for events like cape epic and turn up with $10000 Sworks I advise them to get a cheaper wheel set thats more forgiving than the roval. But nope, they have to have the best and most expensive bike an investment banker can buy and that’s what they use to learn how to Mtb in prep for the next cape epic.
> A well built alloy rim on good hubs and db spokes are the best wheels to build confidence on, cheap to fix too


Haha, those old stans rims were wet noodles. They simply used less metal than DT, mavic and others. Pretty terrible.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

mail_liam said:


> Looks like you're right! I couldn't (still can't really) see the post. I can see the remote though.
> 
> I'm no BMC fan so haven't looked much at them. Just heard of the clever post. Looks slick.


The BMCs look amazing, and would be at the top of my list for my next bike. Unfortunately the integrated dropper is a turn off because a) limited to 80mm travel. b) uncertain future availability of spare parts. c) if the post it terrible, the terrible can't be replaced with something better.

Can anyone inform me if it can be converted to a standard round post so that another brand could be used?


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Haha, those old stans rims were wet noodles. They simply used less metal than DT, mavic and others. Pretty terrible.


indeed but they taught me all about wheel rebuilding, wheel truing and removing bead socket technology dents LOL
They were soft and light and easy to work on. Old rims that too buckled or dinged up were pressure tested.
we 'd inflate an old tubeless tyre on the rim till either the tyre bead gave out or the rim. The rim always failed failed.
But they were light. The 355 and later Crest were huge improvements. I've been a big fan of Stan since he published a easy tubeless conversion article in Mountain BIke Action mag in 2000. I made contact with him and had a set to test within a few weeks. Been using his products ever since. The rims have got better and better. So easy to build.


----------



## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Text under the seatpost picture says:

The telescopic seat post is oval, integrated into the frame and, in this case, it is the prototype used by the team that allows it to be lowered without having to exert force on it.

The last bit is interesting.

I had an older Fourstroke. It was a nice bike otherwise, but how the rear triangle pivots were connected to the front frame was just bad engineering. It was not designed to be maintained. 

I must admit that the customer support was good (and my local shop did a really good job talking with BMC). They replaced my frame several times at no cost.


----------



## mtballday (Aug 19, 2007)

Brad said:


> I tried the 30s and 4 min Vi2 max efforts this evening out of the saddle and seated. No real difference except that I had to be more careful where my weight was over the bike. In open mode the fork runs more compressed so the rear wheel needs to be weighted to maintain traction. Maybe there was less leverage on the pedals, I’ll need to dive into the file later but it didn’t feel materially different.


Wait... you tried an experiment instead of quoting YouTube videos, pro anecdotes, and hypothetical theory? Doesn't seem quite fair...


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mtballday said:


> Wait... you tried an experiment instead of quoting YouTube videos, pro anecdotes, and hypothetical theory? Doesn't seem quite fair...


I may have to make a YouTube video myself then lol

will see where I can borrow a longer travel trail bike from someone willing to let me gently roll it down a hill so I can trash it uphill in the name of science.
There's obviously a lot of different conditions that need to be defined. But as mentioned in an earlier post, there is a significant difference between a trail forks open compression damping vs an XC forks open compression and this plays a significant role in how much energy you're wasting.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I currently own Fourstroke and I can say the dropper, even though I don't use it much, is very helpful. This is the first time ''owning'' a dropper, so I could be biased. The frame has the perfect geometry and the dropper is just and added bonus. If you dismantel everything, I can find almost every other part out there besides the oval shaped seat post. Lever is a bit flimsy, but you can swap it for something sturdier if you want. I really don't have anything bad to say about the bike.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

brentos said:


> The BMCs look amazing, and would be at the top of my list for my next bike. Unfortunately the integrated dropper is a turn off because a) limited to 80mm travel. b) uncertain future availability of spare parts. c) if the post it terrible, the terrible can't be replaced with something better.
> 
> Can anyone inform me if it can be converted to a standard round post so that another brand could be used?


Nope...but 2 1/2 years with it and no problems whatsoever...


----------



## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

There was such good debate on 60 mm vs 120 mm travel that got (appropriately) canned over on the WC thread…

Personally, I think the lateral stiffness of the bike may make a larger difference, given that lockout/compression damping exist. So I can see arguments especially for the super caliber and the spark.


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## rapsac (Sep 26, 2004)

brentos said:


> The BMCs look amazing, and would be at the top of my list for my next bike. Unfortunately the integrated dropper is a turn off because a) limited to 80mm travel. b) uncertain future availability of spare parts. c) if the post it terrible, the terrible can't be replaced with something better.
> 
> Can anyone inform me if it can be converted to a standard round post so that another brand could be used?


Yes, but not round: Darimo T1 Loop Seatpost Aero/Not round – Darimo Carbon


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

RexRacerX said:


> There was such good debate on 60 mm vs 120 mm travel that got (appropriately) canned over on the WC thread…
> 
> Personally, I think the lateral stiffness of the bike may make a larger difference, given that lockout/compression damping exist. So I can see arguments especially for the super caliber and the spark.


The Spark is definitely a super efficient frame with minimal power loss compared to some others.


It's interesting because there was discussion about the weight and stiffness of the 34/35mm fork chassis. I don't know if it's entirely in my head, but it definitely seems to aid directness and confidence. Especially in conjunction with the slackening HTA.

They seem to be complementary factors.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

uintah said:


> Out of curiosity, how wide of a tire did you mount on the 404's back then?



700 x 50mm Kenda Khans.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

SRAM Technical Support Truck for World Cup races. 









Nos colamos en el camión SRAM de la Copa del Mundo


Este camión hace miles de kilómetros cada temporada y allí se atiende, repara o cambia cualquier componente de la marca, desde el tornillo más pequeño de la




www.brujulabike.com


----------



## uintah (Apr 21, 2020)

carlostruco said:


> SRAM Technical Support Truck for World Cup races.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess that partially explains the global parts shortage😉


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

La espectacular BMC Fourstroke "campeona de Europa" de Pauline Ferrrand Prevot


La campeona de Europa de XCO será más fácil de reconocer que nunca. Pauline Ferrand-Prevot no solo llevará el maillot que la acredita como campeona continental, también una nueva BMC Fourstroke personalizada a medida para ella




esmtb.com


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> La espectacular BMC Fourstroke "campeona de Europa" de Pauline Ferrrand Prevot
> 
> 
> La campeona de Europa de XCO será más fácil de reconocer que nunca. Pauline Ferrand-Prevot no solo llevará el maillot que la acredita como campeona continental, también una nueva BMC Fourstroke personalizada a medida para ella
> ...


I thought Pauline Ferrand Prevot’s blue and white European Champion’s frame for this year is a bit restrained. It doesn’t stand out that much.












Last year’s bike covered in tape was far more memorable. Its creation and the sense of humor made me laugh. I do think it looks good as well considering how many times I’ve mentioned it.










Enter NO CURVES, whose real name remains a mystery

_“Five Things You Should Know: 

- The vibrant colour palette makes use of her rainbow stripes, representing all of the continents, and Pauline’s fiery character.

- Not only a nod to the bikes’ natural terrain, the deconstructed mountains at the junction of the downtube and the seat tube represent the new challenge with BMC, the highs and lows of the sport and how easy it is to go from one to another.

- The panther on the head tube represents Pauline: super calm on the exterior but with an internal rage ready to be unleashed on race day.

- The BMC logo stays true to its DNA on the downtube but is joined by Pauline on the chainstay and a discrete signature by NO CURVES.

- Ensuring full compliance with the UCI World Champion stripes was worth breaking a sweat over and well suited to NO CURVES’ tape art approach. For that matter, each stripe is 8 mm in width.” BMC






Pauline x No Curves Fourstroke







www.bmc-switzerland.com









_


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

WR304 said:


> I thought Pauline Ferrand Prevot’s blue and white European Champion’s frame for this year is a bit restrained. It doesn’t stand out that much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks too "Captain America" for me 😬. Agree last year's is a good looking bike


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Apparently although Pauline Ferrand Prevot is still officially with the Absolut Absalon team since her split with Julien Absalon she has her own staff, so it’s effectively a team within a team.

_“As part of dealing with her Olympic disappointment, Pauline made some significant changes to her programme - plus her public split with partner and team-manager, Julien Absalon (she will remain on his team, but with some of her own staff inside the team). The biggest outward symbol of that is her new partnership with the Ravanels. After reflecting on her season and where she could improve, she recognised both explosivity and technical skills - both things that Cecile and Cedric are perfectly suited to helping her with.” _*Pinkbike 



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-pauline-ferrand-prevots-winter-training-bmc-four-stroke.html


*


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

mail_liam said:


> Looks too "Captain America" for me 😬. Agree last year's is a good looking bike


I will be the lone dissenter...not that this bike looks great (Lars' is better looking), but I did NOT dig the tape thing...best mtb'r ever and she gets: duct tape??? And "No Curves" ...seriously.... I'll take Cap 'Merica!


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> Apparently although Pauline Ferrand Prevot is still officially with the Absolut Absalon team since her split with Julien Absalon she has her own staff, so it’s effectively a team within a team.
> 
> _“As part of dealing with her Olympic disappointment, Pauline made some significant changes to her programme - plus her public split with partner and team-manager, Julien Absalon (she will remain on his team, but with some of her own staff inside the team). The biggest outward symbol of that is her new partnership with the Ravanels. After reflecting on her season and where she could improve, she recognised both explosivity and technical skills - both things that Cecile and Cedric are perfectly suited to helping her with.” _*Pinkbike
> 
> ...


Hmmmmmm , based on various interviews and a Rob rides with Pros documentary on redbulltv, she seems quite feisty and even difficult to work with


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Lee Cougan prototype seen in the wild under Hector Leonardo Paez (past XCM World Champ). Article suggests it is a ''soft tail''. 









Lee Cougan prepara una nueva rígida "softail" que ya está usando Leonardo Paez


La Lee Cougan Rampage parece que va a actualizarse. La marca ha dado un modelo prototipo a Leonardo Paez, con el que ha competido el pasado fin de semana




esmtb.com


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> Lee Cougan prototype seen in the wild under Hector Leonardo Paez (past XCM World Champ). Article suggests it is a ''soft tail''.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is hot. Looks like the son of Ur Scalpel with both flexor chain and seat stays


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

smartyiak said:


> I will be the lone dissenter...not that this bike looks great (Lars' is better looking), but I did NOT dig the tape thing...best mtb'r ever and she gets: duct tape??? And "No Curves" ...seriously.... I'll take Cap 'Merica!


Haha, I was looking for the tape but couldn't see it. Is it the colour stripes are supposed to be tape?

Agree Lars' bike is sexy, and there's nothing wrong with the Captain's scheme, just would look better on Keegan Swenson's bike 😜.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

WR304 said:


> Apparently although Pauline Ferrand Prevot is still officially with the Absolut Absalon team since her split with Julien Absalon she has her own staff, so it’s effectively a team within a team.
> 
> _“As part of dealing with her Olympic disappointment, Pauline made some significant changes to her programme - plus her public split with partner and team-manager, Julien Absalon (she will remain on his team, but with some of her own staff inside the team). The biggest outward symbol of that is her new partnership with the Ravanels. After reflecting on her season and where she could improve, she recognised both explosivity and technical skills - both things that Cecile and Cedric are perfectly suited to helping her with.” _*Pinkbike
> 
> ...


She's going to be scary if she can up her skill level.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

mail_liam said:


> The Spark is definitely a super efficient frame with minimal power loss compared to some others.


I don't know.
Spark has low-ish anti-squat value compare to other xc/trail bikes. It is designed that way (plush but bob a lot when pedal) in open mode because it assume users to use the middle mode (add compression damping and restrict the travel) or lockout mode when pedal anyway. So, yeah, you could say it's a super efficient frame because it has nice fork and shock remote. But in full open (descend) mode... it bob a lot.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Hexsense said:


> I don't know.
> Spark has low-ish anti-squat value compare to other xc/trail bikes. It is designed that way (plush but bob a lot when pedal) in open mode because it assume users to use the middle mode (add compression damping and restrict the travel) or lockout mode when pedal anyway. So, yeah, you could say it's a super efficient frame because it has nice fork and shock remote. But in full open (descend) mode... it bob a lot.


I mean lateral efficiency (of frame flex - might have the terms wrong) there's minimal wastage compared to some.

Suspension efficiency and anti squat are different I agree. The Spark is definitely tuned/designed to be more active/playful than some of the bikes that don't need lockout etc. To me that's an advantage in capability and makes it faster overall. Definitely see the appeal of less cables off the handlebars though!


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

mail_liam said:


> Haha, I was looking for the tape but couldn't see it. Is it the colour stripes are supposed to be tape?


Not supposed to be…actually is. Watch the video that was posted. No Curves is a “tape artist.” <rolleyes…roll eyes…roll eyes>.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

smartyiak said:


> I will be the lone dissenter...not that this bike looks great (Lars' is better looking), but I did NOT dig the tape thing...best mtb'r ever and she gets: duct tape??? And "No Curves" ...seriously.... I'll take Cap 'Merica!


One of my friends is a Serious Artist. He loves to do the whole pretentious creative thing (although hasn’t gone so far as changing his name yet).

I wind him up about it endlessly.😂


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There’s a new version of the Canyon Lux being ridden by Loana Lecomte:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-an-updated-canyon-lux-2022.html



The most visible difference is that the internal cabling is routed through the headset now.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

After getting destroyed and dropped on the road chaingang last night (hardly pro…) I saw this article about the new Bryton S800 bike computer. It has voice to text chat for sending messages to quickly communicate during group rides.

The example message sent was: 

*“Wowww hey slow down buddy. How can you be that fast?”*

The reply being:

*“Everything ok?”
*
lol 









Bryton S800 cycling computer brings voice-to-text group chatting, navigation & more!


The new Bryton S800 brings a huge, bright screen and brilliant graphical displays and adds voice-to-text group chats, live tracking & more!




bikerumor.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This article is about a 19.5lb Orbea Oiz built by brujulabike, claimed to be World Cup race ready:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-885kg-orbea-oiz-race-bike-1.html



There are a few parts there that are a bit debatable. That spindly bottle cage for example or the brakes. The aftermarket Garbaruk cassette, instead of a SRAM XX1 cassette, is another I’m not convinced over at first glance. The Garbaruk cassette is 337g, compared to 355g for a SRAM XX1 Eagle cassette but is unlikely to shift as well eg:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-garbaruk-12-speed-cassette-for-sram-eagle.html




It sounds cheesy but when you look at something such as a Nino Schurter Scott Spark the philosophy behind the parts on it is all about having a bike that will work race long. “To finish first, first you must finish”.


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

WR304 said:


> This article is about a 19.5lb Orbea Oiz built by brujulabike, claimed to be World Cup race ready:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would never run any cassette besides Sram,Shimano or Campy. Those small companies may get to about 90% of the performance but just not worth it.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Salbutamol bass said:


> I would never run any cassette besides Sram,Shimano or Campy. Those small companies may get to about 90% of the performance but just not worth it.


Even chain rings are touch and go. Haven't used Campy, but Sram and Shimano chain rings just seem to last so much longer than anyone else.


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

LMN said:


> Even chain rings are touch and go. Haven't used Campy, but Sram and Shimano chain rings just seem to last so much longer than anyone else.


Agreed, although I’ve used rotor and had good results. Rotors cassette is crap tho. Basically if pro road teams use it then you know they can go the distance.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Agreed, although I’ve used rotor and had good results. Rotors cassette is crap tho. Basically if pro road teams use it then you know they can go the distance.


I have spent a couple of seasons on Rotors and they weren't bad. I still have some Rotor cranks on my gravel bike, durability has been good but they don't shift like Shimano.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Salbutamol bass said:


> I would never run any cassette besides Sram,Shimano or Campy. Those small companies may get to about 90% of the performance but just not worth it.


I have run E13s in 350 and 100 mile races. They are still working great. I wouldn't rule out other cassettes, but I would agree that the performance and value drops off quickly as you get more removed from main brands.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

If it is stays super muddy will people be bringing out their special race day mud tires? They are pretty hard to find nowadays. I know I gave away the two sets of 2.0 Beavers that I had in a bin to some juniors heads over with instructions to take care very good care of them.


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

LMN said:


> If it is stays super muddy will people be bringing out their special race day mud tires? They are pretty hard to find nowadays. I know I gave away the two sets of 2.0 Beavers that I had in a bin to some juniors heads over with instructions to take care very good care of them.


It will be interesting to see how the Scott team handles it this year, if they continue with 2.4" tires even in the mud, it looked quite slippery last year even though they were running a special mud prototype, most teams seem to prefer narrower tires in the mud. From the track video it looks like a lot of slippery rocks as well (limestone?), I'm guessing pure mud tires are not the best for that.


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

WR304 said:


> This article is about a 19.5lb Orbea Oiz built by brujulabike, claimed to be World Cup race ready:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would switch the brakes to Trickstuff to save some weight and get better performance (and put proper brake discs on it), change to sturdier tires and add a dropper post, otherwise I think those parts will hold up quite well for world cup racing.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Not bad, definitely a WW build in a few key areas. For one thing to truly be World Cup ready it needs a dropper post. An AXS post will add over a pound. The Darimo seatpost is two-bolt but it's literally held on by carbon fiber string!





Darimo T1 Loop Seatpost – Darimo Carbon







darimo.eu













I looked up the Darimo bars and stem. They aren't battle tested but the bar has a comfortable weight limit and they are fairly detailed about their crash testing.





Darimo MTB Handlebar – Darimo Carbon







darimo.eu





I'd be concerned about that stem, again they mention FEA and so on but would you trust your teeth to it on a steep drop?





Darimo IX2 Stem – Darimo Carbon







darimo.eu





The Garbaruk parts sound just fine. I trust Ukranian engineering 








Products | Garbaruk Online Store







www.garbaruk.com





The Pirelli tires are an odd choice but don't seem appreciably different in weight or tread than XCO standbys. The Biturbo RS wheels are actually heavier and more durable than what most would run out there. I'd give the Syncros SL the advantage on a WW setup, and with its 30mm inner width it's a better ride.

The Oiz frame is what it is, better choices out there but I suppose it's out there on the circuit. Ultimately I think this is about the scary seatpost that nobody would ever use, and not much else to speak about. A real dropper post would put it back in the 21 pound range.




WR304 said:


> This article is about a 19.5lb Orbea Oiz built by brujulabike, claimed to be World Cup race ready:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bicis de los pro: S-Works Epic HT de Christopher Blevins


Christopher Blevins, el campeón del mundo de Short Track, tiene una de las bicicletas más impresionantes que han pasado por ESMTB en nuestros 20 años en




esmtb.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Not bad, definitely a WW build in a few key areas. For one thing to truly be World Cup ready it needs a dropper post. An AXS post will add over a pound. The Darimo seatpost is two-bolt but it's literally held on by carbon fiber string!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’d not be super bothered about the Darimo parts. When ordering they can be custom specified as to how strong or light you’d want the individual components to be with additional reinforcement if requested.

The part I do have a real issue with for practicality on a mountain bike is that flimsy 10g water bottle cage. Seeing that made me question a lot more whether the other choices had been fully thought through or not:


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

On the subject of bottle cages and equipment choices that work for a race bike:

Nino Schurter’s Scott Spark 2022 (note the black/ yellow Topeak cage) He’s used this same style of cage over many years.











Nino Schurter’s Scott Spark 2015 (closest model black/ yellow Topeak bottle cage)










According to the article that 2015 Scott Spark was 9.1kg (tubular wheels and tyres)









[Bike Check] Nino Schurter's Scott Spark


[ad3] Yesterday Nino Schurter won the first big race of the year on a full suspended bike, the Scott Spark you can see in the photos below. Still, Nino has also a Scott Scale if the race course is not as technical the Monte Tamaro one. [ad45]




www.mtb-mag.com





Looking up the current Topeak product range there are many different styles of cage to choose from, including a spindly 10g carbon cage: 









Bottle Cages







www.topeak.com


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

A closer look at Pidcock's suspension setup.









Las suspensiones electrónicas SR Suntour de Tom Pidcock como nunca las habías visto


Hemos visto de cerca como desmontaban las suspensiones electrónicas SR Suntour que usa Tom Pidcock, de forma exclusiva, en su BMC Fourstroke




esmtb.com


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Not bad, definitely a WW build in a few key areas. For one thing to truly be World Cup ready it needs a dropper post. An AXS post will add over a pound. The Darimo seatpost is two-bolt but it's literally held on by carbon fiber string!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The oiz is a great bike, have you ridden 1 to have formed a negative opinion on it?


----------



## agm2 (Jun 30, 2008)

Anyone pick up on Sam Gaze’s computer mount? It looks like it was attached the the seat tube.


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

agm2 said:


> Anyone pick up on Sam Gaze’s computer mount? It looks like it was attached the the seat tube.


Maybe his stem is too short to fit the computer 😉

I did not see how it was mounted, I would guess that it is to have one distraction less to think about and race on feel instead.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Salbutamol bass said:


> The oiz is a great bike, have you ridden 1 to have formed a negative opinion on it?


It’s probably not “enduro-ish” enough.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Oiz is one of my favourites and its a great looking bike


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Skier78 said:


> Maybe his stem is too short to fit the computer 😉
> 
> I did not see how it was mounted, I would guess that it is to have one distraction less to think about and race on feel instead.


looked like a garmin mount bolted into the bottm water bottle cage boss. Haven't seen pictures to confirm


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Salbutamol bass said:


> The oiz is a great bike, have you ridden 1 to have formed a negative opinion on it?



The Oiz is interesting. Orbea typically runs a 4 year design cycle and this is year four. It is a bike that is long in the tooth. But I know it is still a very popular bike for them, which is the opposite of what usually happens during a design cycle.

I have no insider information but I think the next generation will have reach numbers that are similar to their trail and enduro bikes. HA probably a degree slacker and seat angle a tiny bit steeper. But I think the base suspension design will be unchanged 

It seems like that 425, 450, 475 reach for s, m, and L is almost becoming an industry norm.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> The Oiz is interesting. Orbea typically runs a 4 year design cycle and this is year four. It is a bike that is long in the tooth. But I know it is still a very popular bike for them, which is the opposite of what usually happens during a design cycle.
> 
> I have no insider information but I think the next generation will have reach numbers that are similar to their trail and enduro bikes. HA probably a degree slacker and seat angle a tiny bit steeper. But I think the base suspension design will be unchanged
> 
> It seems like that 425, 450, 475 reach for s, m, and L is almost becoming an industry norm.


so the medium becomes a small, the large a medium and so on.
It’s becoming real hard to fit short people on these sleds


----------



## TwincamRob (Sep 20, 2014)

Brad said:


> looked like a garmin mount bolted into the bottm water bottle cage boss. Haven't seen pictures to confirm


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

TwincamRob said:


> View attachment 1982759


Shot thanks for posting


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Alpecin-Fenix uses Wahoo. I saw it during the race and as soon as he crossed the line he reached down to maybe press stop. Smart to not let the numbers play mind games.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Analizamos la KTM Myroon de Victor Koretzky para Albstadt


Al detalle la KTM Myroon de Victor Koretzky con la que está compitiendo en la Copa del Mundo de Albstadt




www.brujulabike.com


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> so the medium becomes a small, the large a medium and so on.
> It’s becoming real hard to fit short people on these sleds


Not, really. Setting up bikes for short riders is something I have a lot of experience with. Reach is never an issue. It is handle bar height that is the challenge.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

LMN said:


> Not, really. Setting up bikes for short riders is something I have a lot of experience with. Reach is never an issue. It is handle bar height that is the challenge.


Mostly agreed. At 5'6, this is how my stem looks like just to have bar about level with my saddle. Huge saddle to bar drop is just impossible.
However, as you see, to use drop stem to get proper height, reach can't be too long that it exclude the use of 50mm stem. AFAIK, shortest FSA drop stem is 50mm long.
Slacker HTA could help lower the stack down.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Not, really. Setting up bikes for short riders is something I have a lot of experience with. Reach is never an issue. It is handle bar height that is the challenge.


yes ultimately that is what is affected but if the bike had less reach the bike could be set up with longer -17 or -20 degree stem to get the bars lower. So shorter riders end up with a more upright seated position. I've had to fit a rider bar upside down on a ladies bike to get the bars low enough for her. It didn't look right to her so she's learned to live with the higher bar and bend more at the elbows.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Brad said:


> so the medium becomes a small, the large a medium and so on.
> It’s becoming real hard to fit short people on these sleds


It’s made things easier for those of us traditionally between sizes… at 5’10” or a bit less, I’ve sized up to a large forever to get more reach and just dealt with the stack height. Now I can ride a medium and have a nice low front end.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> yes ultimately that is what is affected but if the bike had less reach the bike could be set up with longer -17 or -20 degree stem to get the bars lower. So shorter riders end up with a more upright seated position. I've had to fit a rider bar upside down on a ladies bike to get the bars low enough for her. It didn't look right to her so she's learned to live with the higher bar and bend more at the elbows.


Actually, even with -20 stem your bars will be higher the longer the stem is. To be flat a stem angle needs to to be the complement of the head angle.

It takes a really aggressive negative rise with a really long stem to actually drop those bars.

Now the real question is what is an appropriate bar height for a short rider?


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Yeah, as mentioned in the post at the end of last page.
As long as reach still allow short rider to use 50mm stem, we can use drop stem. Once the reach is so long that short rider can't use stem 50mm or longer, then we lost a tool to fight the too high bar problem for short rider.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

carlostruco said:


> A closer look at Pidcock's suspension setup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Intrestingly its not a prototype tire on it! Racekings pro ltd?! Cant really understand which version are those, though they dont look like the protection version! They are baking something new but with same patterns as racekings and crosskings, maybe new compound and/or bigger volume!


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Hexsense said:


> Mostly agreed. At 5'6, this is how my stem looks like just to have bar about level with my saddle. Huge saddle to bar drop is just impossible.
> However, as you see, to use drop stem to get proper height, reach can't be too long that it exclude the use of 50mm stem. AFAIK, shortest FSA drop stem is 50mm long.
> Slacker HTA could help lower the stack down.


I’m slightly taller than you. My stems are all slammed to get the bar level with the saddle. Pinkbike just put up a feature on a few of the hard tails at Albstadt and some of the bikes have some extreme low stems...but if you look at the bar and saddle heights…they are almost level with each other. Thats why my bike with the 160mm fork is a 27.5. With a 29 in wheel up front…the handlebar is too high.

If you look at some of the women EWS riders…their bars look to be higher than the saddle.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Thanks for noticing 



RS VR6 said:


> I’m slightly taller than you. My stems are all slammed to get the bar level with the saddle. Pinkbike just put up a feature on a few of the hard tails at Albstadt and some of the bikes have some extreme low stems...but if you look at the bar and saddle heights…they are almost level with each other. Thats why my bike with the 160mm fork is a 27.5. With a 29 in wheel up front…the handlebar is too high.
> 
> If you look at some of the women EWS riders…their bars look to be higher than the saddle.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There are some tech pictures from the Albstadt round here:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/prototype-tires-custom-bikes-and-more-tech-randoms-from-the-albstadt-xc-world-cup-2022.html



This photo shows the suspension data logging setup on Jordan Sarrou’s Specialized Epic Evo. This bike is the non brain version of the Specialized Epic with the handlebar activated remote lockout cable for the rear shock running into the top tube:

This data logging is only going to used for setting the suspension up during practice. It will be removed for the actual race.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Some XC hardtail pictures from Albstadt World Cup:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/9-hardtails-from-the-albstadt-xc-world-cup-2022.html


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Race pictures from Albstadt World Cup.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-dirty-pretzel-albstadt-xc-world-cup-2022.html












A tech detail I thought was quite interesting is that Rebecca McConnell is wearing the new Giro Eclipse aero helmet in this picture. 

The Thomus team also wear Giro helmets but Mathias Fluckiger seems to be sticking with a Giro Aether helmet, despite presumably having the option to wear a Giro Eclipse if he wanted.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More closeup pics of LL Canyon Lux prototype. 









Detalles de la Canyon Lux prototipo de Loana Lecomte


Algunos corredores de Canyon ya están compitiendo con una nueva Canyon Lux. Parece lista para salir a la serie, con unos acabados perfectos y ni rastro de




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

cycloholic said:


> Intrestingly its not a prototype tire on it! Racekings pro ltd?! Cant really understand which version are those, though they dont look like the protection version! They are baking something new but with same patterns as racekings and crosskings, maybe new compound and/or bigger volume!


Those RaceKing are Pro only. General public RaceKings tires are 120Tpi and come in ProTection (about 600g 2.2) and RaceSport (about 520g 2.2). Pro LTD is no for regular humans. RaceKing are ultra fast tires and have decent puncture protection with lots of grip on dry and hard pack terrain. Pidcock did race 2.4 (prototype) in Tokyo and I could guess he will in Nove Mesto also.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I really like the visual appeal of a XC bike with a 2" lower than bars. And it really bothers me, athestically that my bike doesn't have that. But that is only way it bothers me. 

The main purpose of low bars is to bring that centre of mass down and forward to give a nice stable climbing position, (an aerodynamic position is also a significant factor). At 5'5 my centre of mass is nice and low and centered with my bars level with my seat. Even on my trail bike where the bars are higher I still have a COM that is low and centred. 

The big thing is I found that when I went to quite aggressive measures to lower that front end, it really impacted my ability to lift that front wheel. A more skilled rider may not have the same issue but it was a significant challenge for me.


----------



## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

Anyone know what shoes Pidcock is riding now? Gold painted Sworks? I need new XC shoes and I can't decide what I want to go with.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

csteven71 said:


> Anyone know what shoes Pidcock is riding now? Gold painted Sworks? I need new XC shoes and I can't decide what I want to go with.


They look like Specialized S-Works Recons in a gold finish. The velcro strap, dual boa dials and shape of the upper match:


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Jenny's bike...









Al detalle la Ibis Exie de Jenny Rissveds


El Team 31 liderado por la sueca Jenny Rissveds ha tenido un cambio de material importante para la nueva temporada




www.brujulabike.com


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Am i the only one that found rissved's interviews being quite arrogant latest?!


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

cycloholic said:


> Am i the only one that found rissved's interviews being quite arrogant latest?!


I thought she took time to actually think about the question and to give her most genuine authentic feelings. No sponsor canned cliches or #socialmedia inspirational BS.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

cycloholic said:


> Am i the only one that found rissved's interviews being quite arrogant latest?!


Not even a little bit.

She strikes me as someone who went through a lot of grief due to the pressure of racing, is finding a way to compete while keeping herself happy and healthy, and is honest and frank with her thoughtful responses.


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

carlostruco said:


> Those RaceKing are Pro only. General public RaceKings tires are 120Tpi and come in ProTection (about 600g 2.2) and RaceSport (about 520g 2.2). Pro LTD is no for regular humans. RaceKing are ultra fast tires and have decent puncture protection with lots of grip on dry and hard pack terrain. Pidcock did race 2.4 (prototype) in Tokyo and I could guess he will in Nove Mesto also.


Race Kings are 60tpi and Conti uses three ply construction. Pidcock’s prototypes are marked 150tpi. I am guessing that is for a single ply.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

BoyinBlue said:


> Race Kings are 60tpi and Conti uses three ply construction. Pidcock’s prototypes are marked 150tpi. I am guessing that is for a single ply.


Do they count it like 3x60?!








of


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

cycloholic said:


> Do they count it like 3x60?!
> 
> Yes


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Seems nearly all Pro XC bikes run 34-36t front chainrings.

Is this because they actually spin out (reach top speed and run out of high gears) or is this because there is a notable efficiency advantage with the larger chain ring up front and of course also needing to stay in a lower (physically larger) rear cassette gear so getting less chain articulation?

Just curious as I find a pretty notable loss of AS when I've tried running larger chainrings.

Thx.


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

WR304 said:


> They look like Specialized S-Works Recons in a gold finish. The velcro strap, dual boa dials and shape of the upper match:
> 
> View attachment 1982883


Are his cleats REALLY far back or is it an illusion (or am I miss-seeing it)? I've heard of a few people moving their cleats back...or are all the cool kids doing it now? Custom dremel?


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

smartyiak said:


> Are his cleats REALLY far back or is it an illusion (or am I miss-seeing it)? I've heard of a few people moving their cleats back...or are all the cool kids doing it now? Custom dremel?


I run my cleats back...I'm not one of the cool kids. It does help push the pedal with more balanced power. But that's just me...


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

carlostruco said:


> I run my cleats back...I'm not one of the cool kids. It does help push the pedal with more balanced power. But that's just me...


Did you have to dremel the "cleat canal" back farther? I don't think I can push my cleats that far back. It looks like it's almost under his arch.

Not criticizing, just asking. I've heard of people doing it, but I never have.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

It doesnt look (from the picture at least) that his cleats are back. This is a trend on triathlon than you can save this muscle group for running.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

smartyiak said:


> Did you have to dremel the "cleat canal" back farther? I don't think I can push my cleats that far back. It looks like it's almost under his arch.
> 
> Not criticizing, just asking. I've heard of people doing it, but I never have.


Nope. I use the back screws and push the cleats as far back posible. Cleats are almost centered at the fifth metatarsus. I've found this is my ideal position. Also, I can't afford to ruin good shoes given the price and availability this days. I do use carbon plated insoles with high arc and metatarsal support gel. Also heel cup support has to be a bit higher. Dealing with plantar fasciitis and metatarsalgia for years led me to tinker a lot with cleat positioning.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

smartyiak said:


> Are his cleats REALLY far back or is it an illusion (or am I miss-seeing it)? I've heard of a few people moving their cleats back...or are all the cool kids doing it now? Custom dremel?


Sworks shoes have more adj than std shoes, they allow a pretty far back cleat position, which I use. The cleat plate is custom titanium and longer that a std spd plate too.


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

I find it interesting that most of the hardtails pictured have a nearly even bar to saddle drop. I can't, even with a size bigger bike, possibly get 0 drop on an xc bike. Even when I had my 2021 Top Fuel I still had some saddle to bar drop. I always wonder if that makes it harder for me on the downhills.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

khardrunner14 said:


> I always wonder if that makes it harder for me on the downhills.


Not really. You probably have longer limbs that make it easier to move your bike around than someone with short limbs.

The trade offs in mountain biking are pretty cool in my opinion. Short riders are super stable on their bikes but they don't have a lot of range of motion. Tall riders aren't nearly as stable but they have a much larger range of motion. In the end neither has an advantage.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

khardrunner14 said:


> I find it interesting that most of the hardtails pictured have a nearly even bar to saddle drop. I can't, even with a size bigger bike, possibly get 0 drop on an xc bike. Even when I had my 2021 Top Fuel I still had some saddle to bar drop. I always wonder if that makes it harder for me on the downhills.


That's because how most MTB stack height grow with size. Picture below is Scott Spark 2022. But it's mostly the same progression for every competitive XC bike.
S and M the same height. L is 1cm taller. XL is another cm taller. 
Rider leg length can be over 15cm difference between short and tall rider. Yet, 2cm difference in height between S and XL, that's only 3% diff in stack. While reach grow by 20% between S to XL.
They assume tall rider to use high rise stem and riser bar while short rider to use drop stem with flat bar, I guess. That'd explain the lack of stack height progression between sizes.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Suns_PSD said:


> Seems nearly all Pro XC bikes run 34-36t front chainrings.
> 
> Is this because they actually spin out (reach top speed and run out of high gears) or is this because there is a notable efficiency advantage with the larger chain ring up front and of course also needing to stay in a lower (physically larger) rear cassette gear so getting less chain articulation?
> 
> ...


Most all of the men run 36T with some running 38T. I believe this is mostly to gain more efficiency running in the middle of the cassette. Plus they have much more horsepower than us.

Same deal for the women but 34T is big for them I believe.


I'm really interested to learn more about the Suntour suspension on Pidcock's bike. I've got to read the link posted earlier, but given they were prototyping it early last year I thought it would be on production bikes. Is it going to be a pro only system?


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Hexsense said:


> That's because how most MTB stack height grow with size. Picture below is Scott Spark 2022. But it's mostly the same progression for every competitive XC bike.
> S and M the same height. L is 1cm taller. XL is another cm taller.
> Rider leg length can be over 15cm difference between short and tall rider. Yet, 2cm difference in height between S and XL, that's only 3% diff in stack. While reach grow by 20% between S to XL.
> They assume tall rider to use high rise stem and riser bar while short rider to use drop stem with flat bar, I guess. That'd explain the lack of stack height progression between sizes.
> ...


Another take is that the 607.5 number is actually the floor for stack height. If they could make it lower they would. 
90mm Head tube size is as short as I know of.

Off topic but the crank lengths are interesting. One way of dealing with a high stack is to run a shorter crank and raise the seat. Going to 165mm cranks can give you up to a 10mm increase in seat height, which is like lowering the stack 10mm.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

mail_liam said:


> Most all of the men run 36T with some running 38T. I believe this is mostly to gain more efficiency running in the middle of the cassette. Plus they have much more horsepower than us.
> Same deal for the women but 34T is big for them I believe.


Pro gear choice is interesting.
If pro have 2x the power of regular rider and they still use 34-38T chainring,
What are average (non cat 1-2 ) rider doing with 34T ring? Shouldn't average rider ride on way small gear in scale with the power?

Same for road. Pro ride 53T chainring, so a rider with half the power want to ride 53T too because it's pro? Nah, I'd argue even 50T front ring is big.

That said, I'm on a bike with excessive anti-squat value. And 34T does help my suspension feeling better. But I admit, the gearing is too big for me and I'd down size chainring if my bike anti-squat is a bit lower.



mail_liam said:


> I'm really interested to learn more about the Suntour suspension on Pidcock's bike. I've got to read the link posted earlier, but given they were prototyping it early last year I thought it would be on production bikes. Is it going to be a pro only system?


I'm really interested in how it work too. Particularly, if it's a general purpose and versatile then great. If it need to be programmed for threshold lock/unlock force specify to the course then nah. Worst case scenario is to lock/unlock based on GPS location pre-program from course profile. That'd be the ultimate auto lock/unlock system that only work perfectly for race course but useless in the real wild.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Cant work with gps, different lines in almost the same gps coordinates.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

Two picture galleries of the bikes from Albstadt.
As always I am amazed of how high pressure some of the riders have in the front suspension relative to their body weight. 









Edel-Räder: Die 7 schicksten XC Profi-Bikes vom World Cup Albstadt 2022


Bei unserem Gang durch die Boxengasse konnten wir viele spannende Bikes der XC-Stars ablichten – hier ist der Bikecheck der Profibikes Teil 1!




www.mtb-news.de













XC World Cup 2022 Albstadt: 8 Profi Bikes in der Boxengasse - MTB-News.de


8 Profi Bikes aus Albstadt im Detail: Im zweiten Teil der Bikecheck-Serie aus dem World Cup Fahrerlager in Albstadt gibt es nicht minder spannende Vehikel aus der Szene zu sehen: Ob Weltmeister, Europameister oder Top-Talent der Zukunft – die Liste der Fahrerinnen und Fahrer, die uns in den...




www.mtb-news.de


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Skier78 said:


> As always I am amazed of how high pressure some of the riders have in the front suspension relative to their body weight.


Example?! You know that all forks doesnt use the same pressures for the same rider, right?! Also, it makes difference if you are using tokens, the travel of the fork, etc.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

cycloholic said:


> Example?! You know that all forks doesnt use the same pressures for the same rider, right?! Also, it makes difference if you are using tokens, the travel of the fork, etc.


For example Nino S, 78psi @67kg and no tokens for a SID35. I have 71psi and no tokens at 78kg.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Skier78 said:


> For example Nino S, 78psi @67kg and no tokens for a SID35. I have 71psi and no tokens at 78kg.


I see, but Nino is quite aggressive, jumping and stuff like hell so i guess he is using more than a more normal person(although don't know your style). Also, is it the same fork? Same charger? Usually Nino was using a non commercial 3p charger with low speed adjustment (the original Scott fork comes with no low speed), his mechanic claimed he wanted in the fully open position that this was actually more open than the stock. Interestedly he was using all the token he could on the older spark.

Ps: those info was for the previous spark, no idea what is going on with the new.
PS2: according to the stock chart you are right, he is using more than the recomended.
Ps3 i don't know if by any chance his aggressive too low position can affect also the weight balance thus more weight in front thus more pressure.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

so, stiffer spring rate but more open compression damping than stock non adjustable compression damping on Raceday charger? 

That make some sense. But a bit counterintuitive as he use 38t chainring on low-ish anti-squat bike which I assume might benifits from more compression damping rather than less.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Hexsense said:


> so, stiffer spring rate but more open compression damping than stock non adjustable compression damping on Raceday charger?
> 
> That make some sense. But a bit counterintuitive as he use 38t chainring on low-ish anti-squat bike which I assume might benifits from more compression damping rather than less.


No no wait!
I was talking for the older spark, not with the raceday but with the charger2 and the low speed compression.
For the newer i have no idea about his settings except that he is using no tokens at all!


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Hexsense said:


> Pro gear choice is interesting.
> If pro have 2x the power of regular rider and they still use 34-38T chainring,
> What are average (non cat 1-2 ) rider doing with 34T ring? Shouldn't average rider ride on way small gear in scale with the power?


Just out of curiosity... what chainring are you guys running? I'm running 36T front and I don't feel I would need anything smaller. I admit I'm still old school guy and if I didn't get used to 100rpm until now, I don't think it will change at age of 45  , but still my average rpm is around 80-85. With 10-51 cassette, I really have no need for some ultra small front chainrings, as even with 36T, I never managed to find climb where I would have issues with 36T... Only minor nuisance are super long and steep 1000+m ascend in single piece climbs, where sometimes it would help to have 34T, but other then this, I'm really happy with 36T.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm 54 years old and use a 34T ring and I never use the 50 cassette in the back for a race. I'd probably be better off with a 36T ring for the trails I ride.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

I use a 36t at home (in Sweden), it feels different than the smaller (32t), more efficient somehow. Part of it is probably that the antisquat changes, but it feels better on the hardtail as well, so I think some of it is a lower friction from using larger cogs in the rear. For stage races with climbs over 30 mins I change to a 32t, otherwise the superlow cadence kills my legs after one day. 10-50 cassette.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

I agree with that, the bigger ring feels better. The same on a road bike, traditional 53 feels way better than 50 but i cant explain why, maybe because of leverage change?!


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

cycloholic said:


> I agree with that, the bigger ring feels better. The same on a road bike, traditional 53 feels way better than 50 but i cant explain why, maybe because of leverage change?!


There’s less friction on larger rings.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

primoz said:


> Just out of curiosity... what chainring are you guys running? I'm running 36T front and I don't feel I would need anything smaller. I admit I'm still old school guy and if I didn't get used to 100rpm until now, I don't think it will change at age of 45  , but still my average rpm is around 80-85. With 10-51 cassette, I really have no need for some ultra small front chainrings, as even with 36T, I never managed to find climb where I would have issues with 36T... Only minor nuisance are super long and steep 1000+m ascend in single piece climbs, where sometimes it would help to have 34T, but other then this, I'm really happy with 36T.


I use a 34 tooth front chainring with a Shimano 12 speed 10-51 cassette.

Looking at last week (outdoors riding only excluding turbo trainer) I did 17 hours 2 minutes riding, 15,593ft climbing.

Time in bottom two gears
34x45 = 13 min 58 sec, 1.4%
34x51 = 18 min 01 sec, 1.8%

The caveat to that being that although I didn't use the bottom gears much when I did I use them I *really* needed them! I'd much rather fit a 36 or 38 tooth front chainring but wouldn't get up the steeper hills then...

Essentially it's better to run a larger front chainring wherever possible, in order to minimise the time spent in the smallest rear sprockets because the friction losses are so high, particularly in the 10 tooth sprocket. The limiting factor is that the gearing still has to be low enough to get up the hills.

For 1x gearing efficiency the chart to look at is this one using a SRAM 10-42 cassette, although this was with a 48 tooth front chainring. I removed the 2x results as it makes the chart clearer. A smaller mountain bike front chainring will be worse again!

Gear Issue: Friction differences between 1X and 2X drivetrains


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

How you know the exact time on your gears? You said you have Shimano cassette, but SRAM derailleur maybe?


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

WR304 said:


> I use a 34 tooth front chainring with a Shimano 12 speed 10-51 cassette.
> 
> Looking at last week (outdoors riding only excluding turbo trainer) I did 17 hours 2 minutes riding, 15,593ft climbing.
> 
> ...


Damn 17hrs in a week? I did like 12 when racing cat 1 and I thought that was a lot lol. Retired?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> How you know the exact time on your gears? You said you have Shimano cassette, but SRAM derailleur maybe?


I’m using a SRAM AXS electronic rear derailleur combined with a Shimano cassette and chain.

When paired to a Garmin or Wahoo head unit the number of shifts and gear position from the SRAM AXS rear derailleur throughout the ride are recorded as part of the .fit file generated by the head unit. It doesn’t show in Strava but if you load the .fit file into a program such as WKO5 the gear information is all there as a summary to read the totals from.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

WR304 said:


> I’m using a SRAM AXS electronic rear derailleur combined with a Shimano cassette and chain.
> 
> When paired to a Garmin or Wahoo head unit the number of shifts and gear position from the SRAM AXS rear derailleur throughout the ride are recorded as part of the .fit file generated by the head unit. It doesn’t show in Strava but if you load the .fit file into a program such as WKO5 the gear information is all there as a summary to read the totals from.


Yup i know all that, i have the same, i was wondering because you said about Shimano!


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Damn 17hrs in a week? I did like 12 when racing cat 1 and I thought that was a lot lol. Retired?


I ride a lot in the evenings and at weekends.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> Yup i know all that, i have the same, i was wondering because you said about Shimano!


I originally had a full Shimano setup but the XTR M9100 trigger shifter broke miles from home back in 2020 so I switched to SRAM AXS instead.









Shimano XTR M9100 shifters keep breaking--no downshift...


I've had three XTR M9100 12 speed shifters break on me, all in the same manner. Two were warranty replacements for the first broken one. The latest replacement only lasted about 2 weeks before breaking. What happens is the shift lever (long one) intermittently stops shifting--just pushes in...




www.mtbr.com





The AXS shifting with a Shimano cassette works well. The 12 speed Shimano sprocket spacing isn’t quite the same as a 12 speed SRAM cassette but it’s close enough for it to shift smoothly. The Shimano 10-51 cassette has slightly more even gearing for the largest few sprockets too (45-51) compared to the 10 tooth jump between largest sprockets (42-52) on a SRAM 10-52 cassette, which is a small thing but I do prefer it when climbing.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

36T...10-50 out back...rarely use the 50...175mm cranks...6'0 (1.83m) with long arms and legs but short torso...


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Skier78 said:


> Two picture galleries of the bikes from Albstadt.
> As always I am amazed of how high pressure some of the riders have in the front suspension relative to their body weight.
> 
> 
> ...


Great pictures!!!


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

WR304 said:


> I use a 34 tooth front chainring with a Shimano 12 speed 10-51 cassette.
> 
> Looking at last week (outdoors riding only excluding turbo trainer) I did 17 hours 2 minutes riding, 15,593ft climbing.
> 
> ...


** Please skip this post entirely if you don't want to read about a Novice asking how to obtain the lowest power losses on their personal set up.*

This is an interesting topic to me. Generally speaking I'm 1) not as strong as many of the trained athletes posting in this forum, 2) ride considerably chunkier terrain than most XC athletes, 3) am not on a full XC race rig, 4) am never in the 10 tooth rear cassette gear when it matters, but spend 75% of my time riding in the 6-9th gear cogs.

There is a significant wattage cost for running in the 10t, but any info out there on say running in the 18t? Are the losses still significant?

IME, a smaller front chain ring results in a MUCH peppier feeling bike because of the notably higher AS, although it's been years since I experimented with this. Also the 51 tooth on my XTR rear cassette has crazy high drag due to cross chaining; so much that I avoid that 1st gear like the plague!

I have 2 bikes, 1 Spur with an 11 speed SRAM set up & an SJ Evo with an AXS/ XTR 12sp set up that will definitely see steeper/ slower climbs. Best pedaling performance while doing all the things is the goal on both of my bikes. The Spur probably needs more help with AS than the SJEvo as AS is much lower on the Spur.

Just doing some 1st gear, gearing calculations for both bikes (higher number is a lower gear and will climb easier) I get the following:
Spur current: 42/ 30 = 1.4 first gear
Spur proposal #1: 42/ 32 = 1.3
Spur proposal #2: 42/ 34 = 1.2

For comparison to WR304: 51/ 34 = 1.5 (so lower/ easier than my 30t front with a 42t 1st cassette gear)

I've had a handful of technical steep climbs where I've struggled to make it up on the 30t I currently run but it's pretty rare.

On the SJ Evo I just about climb every steep obstacle in the 2nd gear (46t) because of the high friction in 1st gear but also it's just so slow in 1st gear. However there are a handful of climbs where I still bust out the 1st gear. Here are some gear calculations for the SJEvo:
SJ Evo current in 1st gear: 51/ 30 = 1.7
SJ Evo current in 2nd gear: 46/ 30 = 1.5
SJ Evo proposal in 1st gear: 51/32 = 1.6
SJ Evo proposal in 2nd gear: 46/ 32 = 1.4

Anyways, I could_ just_ manage to go up 2 teeth on both bikes and still make my climbs, but the loss of AS and the additional time spent in 1st gear, not sure if that offsets the friction savings spending less time on the small end of the rear cassette. Thoughts?


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

** Please also skip this post entirely if you skip the previous one.*
Rule of thumb I heard but maybe isn't always true: 
add 2t to front ring reduce anti-squat by 5-10%.

Virtually all XC racing bike have some form of lockout, either manually or automatic. So they can get away with low anti-squat when using very big chainring.
But if you never want to lock out smaller ring give more anti-squat. That said, anti-squat isn't more is better or less is better. But many aim to get somewhere close to 100%. 

On the gearing thing, 
13t and smaller is where friction goes up rapidly. Anything bigger than 13t is still quite efficient.
Chain line misalignment is more impactful to friction than cog size. So, that'd be the priority I focus on more than to avoid small cogs only.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Curiosidades, bicis y material del paddock de la Copa del Mundo de Albstadt


Bicis espectaculares, paddocks de estreno, material prototipo y mucho más en nuestro paseo por el paddock de la Copa del Mundo de Albstadt




esmtb.com


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Currently running 32t front ovals and while I prefer the feel of the 34 & 36 rings, I'm walking too often with them.


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## rapsac (Sep 26, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> Curiosidades, bicis y material del paddock de la Copa del Mundo de Albstadt
> 
> 
> Bicis espectaculares, paddocks de estreno, material prototipo y mucho más en nuestro paseo por el paddock de la Copa del Mundo de Albstadt
> ...


Thanks, extremely nice pictures of the actual bikes. Nino was (again) using a Yep dropper, camouflaged as an AXS reverb by using a silver collar. The Yep trigger on his handlebar could also be seen on some other pictures of Albstadt race coverage. Guess the bike needed some weight reduction.


----------



## teleken (Jul 22, 2005)

Those Ghost HT frames have a swoopy rear triangle. Carbon really allows some creative designs.









LECTOR World Cup Frame Kit


Finally, the LECTOR mountain bike hardtail is available as a frame kit. Perfect base to build up your dream bike.



www.ghost-bikes.com


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Hexsense said:


> On the gearing thing,
> 13t and smaller is where friction goes up rapidly. Anything bigger than 13t is still quite efficient.
> Chain line misalignment is more impactful to friction than cog size. So, that'd be the priority I focus on more than to avoid small cogs only.


That has been my approach too.

For training I use a 34 with a 10-51. We have a lot single track climbs that have a very pleasant gradiant, this combo is good. For racing I run a 32 with a 10-51. I find racing that I just need the easier gears, deep into a race (actually fairly quickly) I can't punch the high watts for the short steep climbs.


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## JimiMimni (Jun 2, 2008)

This is a timely discussion since I just ordered a 30t and 34t ring to experiment a bit. I hadn't even considered the changes in suspension kinematics, just gear ratios when I looked at getting more options.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

rapsac said:


> Thanks, extremely nice pictures of the actual bikes. Nino was (again) using a Yep dropper, camouflaged as an AXS reverb by using a silver collar. The Yep trigger on his handlebar could also be seen on some other pictures of Albstadt race coverage. Guess the bike needed some weight reduction.


Where are the pics of Nino's post/trigger?

Seems weird to choose a Yep (I'd never heard of them until your post) do you suppose that's purely to have the silver collar?


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## meschenbruch (Jan 15, 2017)

mail_liam said:


> Where are the pics of Nino's post/trigger?
> 
> Seems weird to choose a Yep (I'd never heard of them until your post) do you suppose that's purely to have the silver collar?


Nino's using a silver collar on the dropper possibly give the illusion it's sram/reverb dropper which is part of the the scott team standard sram components suit. It's like blacking out non-sponsored tyres.

Nino's bike











ASX reverb










If you look at the photo shoot pics from the german website Nino's bike has a reverb installed prior to the race whereas the above one is I'm guessing from race day


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

meschenbruch said:


> Nino's using a silver collar on the dropper possibly give the illusion it's sram/reverb dropper which is part of the the scott team standard sram components suit. It's like blacking out non-sponsored tyres.
> 
> Nino's bike
> View attachment 1983113
> ...


Yeah, i see it now. I couldn't find those pictures. 

Why do you suppose a Yep? Supporting Swiss manufacturers? Seems like if you were going to swap it out you'd go for one of the hyper light ones 🤷‍♂️.

But again, appearances are number one and SRAM pay the team a lot of money to be naming rights sponsors I bet.

I'd love to get AXS but the weight is a lot considering the huger monetary cost in upgrading.


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

mail_liam said:


> Yeah, i see it now. I couldn't find those pictures.
> 
> Why do you suppose a Yep? Supporting Swiss manufacturers? Seems like if you were going to swap it out you'd go for one of the hyper light ones 🤷‍♂️.
> 
> ...


The Yep Podio XC is one of the lightest droppers available, I would guess that is the one he is using. (Picture from R2-bike.com)


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Skier78 said:


> The Yep Podio XC is one of the lightest droppers available, I would guess that is the one he is using. (Picture from R2-bike.com)
> 
> View attachment 1983119


Ah, I see. The only one that popped up was a PinkBike review and that said ~500g.

All becomes clear.


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

mail_liam said:


> Ah, I see. The only one that popped up was a PinkBike review and that said ~500g.
> 
> All becomes clear.


More PB info: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-yeps-new-featherweight-podio-xc-dropper.html


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

But the Yep he’s using is a 100mm at least so is it not a 3.0 Uptimizer and if it is the. It’s not that much lighter than a Reverb C1 with remote


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

JimiMimni said:


> This is a timely discussion since I just ordered a 30t and 34t ring to experiment a bit. I hadn't even considered the changes in suspension kinematics, just gear ratios when I looked at getting more options.


Back when XX1 and X01 cranks had spider with either 94mm or 76mm BCD I use to swap rings between 32t, 34t and 36t. Given the PITA to swap direct mount rings, now I only use 36t. It was a lot easier back then.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More pictures of the Lee Cougan ''soft tail''









Lee Cougan ha un arma segreta. Una MTB Softail? Ha già vinto con Paez


I corvi, gli uccellacci del malaugurio da un po' di tempo dicono che nel cross country per le mountain bike front non c'è futuro, forse in Coppa del Mondo




www.pianetamountainbike.it


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

carlostruco said:


> Back when XX1 and X01 cranks had spider with either 94mm or 76mm BCD I use to swap rings between 32t, 34t and 36t. Given the PITA to swap direct mount rings, now I only use 36t. It was a lot easier back then.


Xx1 quarq is 104! Problem solved!😁


----------



## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

carlostruco said:


> Back when XX1 and X01 cranks had spider with either 94mm or 76mm BCD I use to swap rings between 32t, 34t and 36t. Given the PITA to swap direct mount rings, now I only use 36t. It was a lot easier back then.











CAMO


We created CAMO (Chainline And Material Optimization) for direct mount style cranksets. Easily swap between chainrings on a whim and enjoy a variable selection of chainring options, all compatible with your selected CAMO spider or BashSpider. With no nuts or spacers involved, swapping chainrings...




www.wolftoothcomponents.com













SWITCH - CINCH


Switch. A quick-change direct mount chainring system from OneUp Components. Switch was developed to reduce the cost of replacement chainrings, increase compatibility with new offsets and to make the process of changing your chainring much faster and simpler. Cheaper Replacement Cost -...




www.oneupcomponents.com





I use the OneUp to switch between 30, 32 and 34. Just have to be careful about wear rate. A new ring on used chain can be quite noisy.

Also have Wolf rings on another bike. I'd probably buy into the Camo system next time round.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> ** Please skip this post entirely if you don't want to read about a Novice asking how to obtain the lowest power losses on their personal set up.*
> 
> This is an interesting topic to me. Generally speaking I'm 1) not as strong as many of the trained athletes posting in this forum, 2) ride considerably chunkier terrain than most XC athletes, 3) am not on a full XC race rig, 4) am never in the 10 tooth rear cassette gear when it matters, but spend 75% of my time riding in the 6-9th gear cogs.
> 
> ...


When it comes to 1x drivetrain gearing the bike's front chainring needs to give a low enough gear to get up the climbs you ride regularly. If you need a 30 tooth chainring then you need a 30 tooth chainring. Putting a larger front chainring on if you're barely making the steeper climbs isn't a guaranteed gain, if anything it could be worse as you'll go into the red and blow up sooner from having to push harder. The main benefit for a larger front chainring comes on the middling to fast sections of a ride, rather than when climbing in bottom gear.

Along with sprocket and chainring size the chainline makes a difference. If you were trying to optimise your 1x drivetrain mountain bike purely for climbing moving the chainring inboard towards the bottom bracket a few mm, so that there is less of a bend in the chain in the lower gears would help. For extended steep climbs the gear spacing in the middle of a 1x cassette is closer spaced with reduced teeth jumps between sprockets. Fitting a smaller front chainring (eg: 26 tooth or 28 tooth) would be better for this as you could then climb using the middle sprockets of the cassette. Along with having a straighter chainline it gives you a selection of closely spaced gears to shift between to fine tune your effort whenever the climb gradient steepens or eases. 

If you look at how the XC pros setup their bikes they will change the front chainring size according to the course requirements. 



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/prototype-tires-custom-bikes-and-more-tech-randoms-from-the-albstadt-xc-world-cup-2022.html














If you look at Vlad Dascalu's Strava file from the Albstadt World Cup for example the race was 1 hours 18 minutes. He averaged 12mph for the full race. From the Strava file there was only actually about 1 minute total per lap of super steep climbing 20% gradient plus (split into shorter 20 seconds or so segments also) where he would have been using the bottom gear. Over 6 laps that's just 6 minutes (7.6% of the total time) definitely in bottom gear. The rest of the climbing was at gentler gradients at a speed closer to 10mph which is why he could get away with using a larger front chainring.









ALBSTADT WC 🥉 - Vlad D.'s 25.5 km bike ride


Vlad D. rode 25.5 km on May 8, 2022.




www.strava.com





If the course included a much longer steep climb, say 30 minutes with extended 20% sections, then he would likely have gone for a smaller front chainring.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Jordan Sarrou posted his Albstadt ride on Strava too, with some race photos attached:









Albstadt WC : 6th - Jordan S.'s 26.1 km bike ride


Jordan S. rode 26.1 km on May 8, 2022.




www.strava.com





This photo shows his Specialized Epic Evo in the race:










If you go back a few pages in this thread there is a photo of his bike from practice, with a Quarq powermeter fitted. For the actual race he's not using a power meter. I was trying to work out if it's a trick of the light in the photo but it looks like he gets massive heel rub on both crank arms from his shoes. The drive side crankarm and also the visible heel of his left shoe appear to be marked up.

For tyres he's using a Specialized Fast Trak control T5/T7 front tyre and a Specialized Renegade T7 control rear tyre. They might be a pro only version but it's not clear from the sidewalls.










This head on picture shows his handlebar control setup. He has a remote lockout cable for the fork and rear shock, a SRAM AXS paddle shifter for the rear gears and then there is a thin wire electrical taped to the cable going into the frame also. As he's using a SRAM AXS electronic dropper post there is likely a SRAM blip on the handlebar and that wire goes to a SRAM blip box tucked inside the frame for controlling the dropper post.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

cycloholic said:


> Xx1 quarq is 104! Problem solved!😁


Can you swap rings without taking out the crank?


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

carlostruco said:


> Can you swap rings without taking out the crank?


Yup, at least between 34 and 36. Haven't tried something smaller.


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## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

My bike came with a 34 which I removed almost right away. I run a 30T now and have a 32T around for when conditions dictate. I don't find it too much of a hassle to change a DUB direct mountain chainring. It also gives me an excuse to clean around the bottom bracket and make sure my crank is properly torqued.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

A new AXS rear derr has been spotted. I figured one was coming soon, it's been several years now since the original came about. I'll find the link and post it. The disturbing thing is the mounting system appears to come up and go around the thru-axle, on both sides of the dropout. Which tells me, retrofitting could be a no go. It looks slimmer and has giant pulleys too. The cassette shown is not SRAM, or if it is, it's new also. The first 4 or 5 cogs were black, then silver, almost like XTR. But this was on a world cup bike, so probably not mixing brands?


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

WR304 said:


> When it comes to 1x drivetrain gearing the bike's front chainring needs to give a low enough gear to get up the climbs you ride regularly. If you need a 30 tooth chainring then you need a 30 tooth chainring. Putting a larger front chainring on if you're barely making the steeper climbs isn't a guaranteed gain, if anything it could be worse as you'll go into the red and blow up sooner from having to push harder. The main benefit for a larger front chainring comes on the middling to fast sections of a ride, rather than when climbing in bottom gear.
> 
> Along with sprocket and chainring size the chainline makes a difference. If you were trying to optimise your 1x drivetrain mountain bike purely for climbing moving the chainring inboard towards the bottom bracket a few mm, so that there is less of a bend in the chain in the lower gears would help. For extended steep climbs the gear spacing in the middle of a 1x cassette is closer spaced with reduced teeth jumps between sprockets. Fitting a smaller front chainring (eg: 26 tooth or 28 tooth) would be better for this as you could then climb using the middle sprockets of the cassette. Along with having a straighter chainline it gives you a selection of closely spaced gears to shift between to fine tune your effort whenever the climb gradient steepens or eases.
> 
> ...


One thing you have made me consider on my SJ Evo that just has terrible chain bind when in 1st gear is that I've always managed BB spacers in a manner that results in my crank arms being dead centered to the frame downtube after the preload is adjusted correctly. 
I suppose shifting the cranks further towards the non-drive side so that the chainring is moved more inboard for better alignment in the lower gears, then adjusting my pedal cleats so that my feet themselves remain symetrical to the downtube is another way to go.
Could also use AXS app to determine which gear I spend the most time in and make the chainline most in line with that particular cassette gear.
Anyways, I spend all this time thinking about miniscule gains when I should be on my trainer instead for much larger gains.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

ShortTravelMag said:


> A new AXS rear derr has been spotted. I figured one was coming soon, it's been several years now since the original came about. I'll find the link and post it. The disturbing thing is the mounting system appears to come up and go around the thru-axle, on both sides of the dropout. Which tells me, retrofitting could be a no go. It looks slimmer and has giant pulleys too. The cassette shown is not SRAM, or if it is, it's new also. The first 4 or 5 cogs were black, then silver, almost like XTR. But this was on a world cup bike, so probably not mixing brands?


The UDH has been designed from the get go for an entirely new type of derailleur that only moves directly in/ out.

The UDH was a Trojan Horse and any bike on a UDH will be compatible.

SRAM Granted Patent for Drivetrain With a Direct Mount Derailleur - Pinkbike


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

csteven71 said:


> My bike came with a 34 which I removed almost right away. I run a 30T now and have a 32T around for when conditions dictate. I don't find it too much of a hassle to change a DUB direct mountain chainring. It also gives me an excuse to clean around the bottom bracket and make sure my crank is properly torqued.


Dub never gets loose! Even with tools!!😂


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

ShortTravelMag said:


> A new AXS rear derr has been spotted. I figured one was coming soon, it's been several years now since the original came about. I'll find the link and post it. The disturbing thing is the mounting system appears to come up and go around the thru-axle, on both sides of the dropout. Which tells me, retrofitting could be a no go. It looks slimmer and has giant pulleys too. The cassette shown is not SRAM, or if it is, it's new also. The first 4 or 5 cogs were black, then silver, almost like XTR. But this was on a world cup bike, so probably not mixing brands?


Interesting! Post if you have news!!


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

ShortTravelMag said:


> A new AXS rear derr has been spotted. I figured one was coming soon, it's been several years now since the original came about. I'll find the link and post it. The disturbing thing is the mounting system appears to come up and go around the thru-axle, on both sides of the dropout. Which tells me, retrofitting could be a no go. It looks slimmer and has giant pulleys too. The cassette shown is not SRAM, or if it is, it's new also. The first 4 or 5 cogs were black, then silver, almost like XTR. But this was on a world cup bike, so probably not mixing brands?


Did you find where you saw this? I'm struggling to visualise.

UDH seems like a good idea (every lbs having a hanger for every bike) but I don't know the ins and outs of the new patented system.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Oh, so that's interesting if it fit frame that support UDH.
Shimano don't standardize normal hanger, let everyone use what they see fit. So when Shimano push direct mount standard they have to rely on frame maker to create a new direct mount hanger for their frame. And it's not well received. Frame makers ignore direct mount standard.

Sram standardize normal hanger first. Then that makes it easy to add new RD mounting standard. They just create a new one that fit existing UDS frames. And that's done. Frame maker have to do nothing.


----------



## rapsac (Sep 26, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Where are the pics of Nino's post/trigger?
> 
> Seems weird to choose a Yep (I'd never heard of them until your post) do you suppose that's purely to have the silver collar?


Here is the trigger setup picture:








Trigger is the black rod behind the left hand brake lever.


----------



## rapsac (Sep 26, 2004)

Brad said:


> But the Yep he’s using is a 100mm at least so is it not a 3.0 Uptimizer and if it is the. It’s not that much lighter than a Reverb C1 with remote


When I measure the dropper piston vs the inner fork leg on the picture I think it is a 80mm drop (if it is a 120mm airshaft in the SID Ultimate). So it looks more like a Podio with removed logo’s and custom silver collar.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> One thing you have made me consider on my SJ Evo that just has terrible chain bind when in 1st gear is that I've always managed BB spacers in a manner that results in my crank arms being dead centered to the frame downtube after the preload is adjusted correctly.
> I suppose shifting the cranks further towards the non-drive side so that the chainring is moved more inboard for better alignment in the lower gears, then adjusting my pedal cleats so that my feet themselves remain symetrical to the downtube is another way to go.
> Could also use AXS app to determine which gear I spend the most time in and make the chainline most in line with that particular cassette gear.
> Anyways, I spend all this time thinking about miniscule gains when I should be on my trainer instead for much larger gains.


 That chain binding on the largest rear sprocket is something to look at. On my Specialized Epic Evo (52mm chainline) with a Shimano 10-51 cassette, Shimano chain and SRAM AXS rear derailleur the drivetrain runs quite smoothly on the largest rear sprocket. Maybe try putting the bike in that largest rear sprocket whilst in a work stand and slowly pedal it to see if you can spot where the resistance is coming from.

I’d also measure the actual chainline of your bike (with the bike upside down use a tape measure to measure the distance from the centre of the bottom bracket shell to the centre of the chainring.) Typically this should be 52mm or possibly 55mm for a newish mountain bike with Boost hub spacing.

Depending on the crankset you can adjust the chainline via the offset of the chainring, if there’s clearance with the frame for it to fit. With a SRAM crankset fitting a 6mm offset chainring (49mm chainline) for example would move the chainring inwards by 3mm whilst leaving the crank arms in the same position: 









Direct Mount Chainrings for SRAM Cranks


The direct mount chainrings for SRAM cranksets replace your existing spider and chainring with one clean looking, lightweight, and stiff piece of machined billet. They are available in 3 different offsets: standard 6mm offset, Boost 3mm offset, and BB30 short spindle 0mm offset. Compatibility...




www.wolftoothcomponents.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

ShortTravelMag said:


> A new AXS rear derr has been spotted. I figured one was coming soon, it's been several years now since the original came about. I'll find the link and post it. The disturbing thing is the mounting system appears to come up and go around the thru-axle, on both sides of the dropout. Which tells me, retrofitting could be a no go. It looks slimmer and has giant pulleys too. The cassette shown is not SRAM, or if it is, it's new also. The first 4 or 5 cogs were black, then silver, almost like XTR. But this was on a world cup bike, so probably not mixing brands?


If there’s a completely new cassette could it be 13 speed as well? SRAM have been on 12 speed for their mountain bike drivetrains for quite a long time now. 

SRAM XX1 Eagle was introduced all the way back in early 2016 so it must be getting close to adding an extra sprocket.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/sram-eagle-12-speed-drivetrain-first-ride-2016.html


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## mtballday (Aug 19, 2007)

mail_liam said:


> I'd love to get AXS but the weight is a lot considering the huger monetary cost in upgrading.


I have AXS and, at least in the dry, I don't think it offers any meaningful advantages. The light shifting is nice, but the multi-shift is worse, it weighs slightly more, and the mechanical shifting always worked great already. I don't ride in the mud much -- it might be better then, I don't know.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

mtballday said:


> I have AXS and, at least in the dry, I don't think it offers any meaningful advantages. The light shifting is nice, but the multi-shift is worse, it weighs slightly more, and the mechanical shifting always worked great already. I don't ride in the mud much -- it might be better then, I don't know.


That sort of describes all electronic shifting.

AXS, Di2 what ever. It is really nice and super cool, but it really doesn't provide anything over mechanical shifting.


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## Cardy George (Dec 3, 2020)

LMN said:


> That sort of describes all electronic shifting.
> 
> AXS, Di2 what ever. It is really nice and super cool, but it really doesn't provide anything over mechanical shifting.


I'll back that up. With the minor detail of my 11sp Di2 was still flawless after 36,000km in 4 years. Other than 1 chain/ring/cluster per year , it chewed an upper jockey wheel due to my own dumbarsery and broke 1 wire and shifter in a crash.

I'm on mechanical 12sp XTR now and it shifts exactly the same. So the telling factor will be lifespan. I'll get back to you in 35,000km.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Cardy George said:


> I'll back that up. With the minor detail of my 11sp Di2 was still flawless after 36,000km in 4 years. Other than 1 chain/ring/cluster per year , it chewed an upper jockey wheel due to my own dumbarsery and broke 1 wire and shifter in a crash.
> 
> I'm on mechanical 12sp XTR now and it shifts exactly the same. So the telling factor will be lifespan. I'll get back to you in 35,000km.


I had mixed luck with 11sp Di2. On some bikes it was great, on others I chased some electrical gremlins. Most of the time it was flawless but the couple times I had issues were..... frustrating.


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

That’s great for the bikes that have udh. Millions don’t. So a zillion years of being able to mount any rear mech I want is gone. New bike or old components once again. nothing new I guess.



Suns_PSD said:


> The UDH has been designed from the get go for an entirely new type of derailleur that only moves directly in/ out.
> 
> The UDH was a Trojan Horse and any bike on a UDH will be compatible.
> 
> SRAM Granted Patent for Drivetrain With a Direct Mount Derailleur - Pinkbike


That’s exactly what it looks like. The next axs will use that design and a flat top chain as well on mtb.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

LMN said:


> That sort of describes all electronic shifting.
> 
> AXS, Di2 what ever. It is really nice and super cool, but it really doesn't provide anything over mechanical shifting.


I've stuck with mechanical for this and a couple other reasons.

I will say, however, that there IS in fact an advantage. At mile 140 of the Marji Gesick out and back my hands and wrists were so sore that I could not shift my mechanical X01. The the person I was racing against had AXS, and I'm fairly certain I could have shifted the AXS...every shift I heard him make was just a dagger to my heart. zzt, zzt, zzt...lucky bastard.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

brentos said:


> I've stuck with mechanical for this and a couple other reasons.
> 
> I will say, however, that there IS in fact an advantage. At mile 140 of the Marji Gesick out and back my hands and wrists were so sore that I could not shift my mechanical X01. The the person I was racing against had AXS, and I'm fairly certain I could have shifted the AXS...every shift I heard him make was just a dagger to my heart. zzt, zzt, zzt...lucky bastard.


The dreaded sore thumb. Suffered from that many times in a muddy race, but never with Di2.

Of all the electronic gizmos on bikes the one that I thought was absolutely brilliant was the Fox ICD suspension. The switch was so easy to use and subtle. Gave a three position lockout that works seemlessly with a dropout lever. Integraded into the Di2 system creating a super clean cockpit. 

It is really too bad that Fox stopped making it.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

mtballday said:


> I have AXS and, at least in the dry, I don't think it offers any meaningful advantages. The light shifting is nice, but the multi-shift is worse, it weighs slightly more, and the mechanical shifting always worked great already. I don't ride in the mud much -- it might be better then, I don't know.


Scott team claimed Nino shifts 20%(or similar, i cant recall the exact number) more with electronic shifting, meaning that he is more time in the sweet spot of his gearing and thus faster. I can also feel that I'm shifting more when comparing the two but there isn't any real study that proves all that.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

ShortTravelMag said:


> That’s great for the bikes that have udh. Millions don’t. So a zillion years of being able to mount any rear mech I want is gone. New bike or old components once again. nothing new I guess.


What's a rear mech?


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

ShortTravelMag said:


> That’s great for the bikes that have udh. Millions don’t. So a zillion years of being able to mount any rear mech I want is gone. New bike or old components once again. nothing new I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> That’s exactly what it looks like. The next axs will use that design and a flat top chain as well on mtb.


The fact is that technical advancements will continue, and not all will be backwards compatible with all bikes. In fact some advancements won't be compatible with any previous bikes at all.
The good thing is that you have many choices with your existing bike and in fact don't have to buy a thing. 
I don't see a problem and look forward to seeing what technical advancement Sram has up their sleeve. 
Also, on the topic of AXS, I have it on one bike and it isn't needed but it works so well and is insanely reliable. IME AXS is much more reliable than mechanical and takes dramatically more abuse. Because AXS has the overload feature I've never been able to damage it or even need an adjustment. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I always have a Di2 (road) spare battery on hand as they tend to die before warranty is up. 

SRAM Eagle AXS for MTB? Derailleur is to expensive to mess up on a crash...so no!


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

carlostruco said:


> I always have a Di2 (road) spare battery on hand as they tend to die before warranty is up.
> 
> SRAM Eagle AXS for MTB? Derailleur is to expensive to mess up on a crash...so no!


This is quite an issue indeed and the prices getting higher and higher. In my case, two years now i havent even touch it after the first adjustment. I crashed the very first week on the derailleur side but i only got some scratches on it from that. It also has this motor disengage thing, but if you crash it hard on a rock etc i dont think will help much anyway.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Ha, they removed the story with the new AXS photos. It's gone as if it never existed. They weren't exactly stolen insider photos, they were of someones bike at Albstadt. The article said SRAM has been putting secret products on sponsored racers bikes, but NOT the super stars. The lesser racers that don't get much media attention.

But it's gone now. Someone didn't like that leaking I guess.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Funny thing, this link also doesnt exist.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

That's where I read it, brujulabike. I know, it's like a government scrub job. I'm curious about the cassette though. It was much different than current Eagle. It looked more like an XTR, with say, half of the cogs in silver, and the bigger 6 black. I should have counted them when I had the chance.

WAIT!!! Ha ha, I have two of the images in my Trash! I actually grabbed them off the page and opened them in Photoshop to lighten them up. They were very dark and the darkness was hiding detail. So I have them right in front of me.

Can I post them here? Or will I get the SRAM police cancelling my MTBR account?


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Upon further review, the cassette is probably 12 speed. But definitely not like it is now. 3 black cogs, the rest silver, and the holes in the largest 52 are different, they are straight. Maybe it's a garbaruk or something.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Postttttttt


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

The photos have brujulabike copyright watermarks all over them. As a graphic designer, I do like to respect copyright with images. One thing I will say, the pulley wheels are spiral just like the new solid chainrings, with that rotating turbo look. So that tells me even more the new groupset is coming, all with a common theme visually of the rotating things. However, the current cassettes have the rotation style, but the one in the photo is the opposite, straight lines and square "holes" all over. Very odd. I find it hard to believe SRAM would give Mondraker (the frameset it's on in the photo) the drivetrain and not make them use a SRAM cassette.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)




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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Thank you. Unless they release a version with normal screw on hanger format, I guess I'm not adding that to my 2016 top fuel. I was going to try the XX1 AXS group, three times I had one, and returned/sold them because I knew they were about to be replaced and I didn't need it anyway. But by next year, I'll be ready to upgrade from 11 speed, and now I'm assuming this new mount will not work with old frames.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Cogs actually look quit the same, not bigger!


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

It looks like it is Rebeccas bike!! Quite fair!!


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

The article text said it wasn't a big name's bike, but maybe it is. Not sure if Mondraker has more than one rider, never paid attention to them much. The big cog has rotating connectors now, but that one does not. That's what I was saying.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

They have repost it here, they say that brujula referred to it as Rebecca's bike!



https://www.mtbcult.it/tecnica/nuovo-cambio-sram-axs-in-arrivo/


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

I was reading a rough translation, and I read it quick, must have missed that. I'd say it's darn near ready to release as a '23 maybe? If it's that far along, and it does not look rough, minus graphics, it looks ready to roll. 

Could have been a 2022 thing but got delayed, maybe even a 2024, which would mean another year of testing. 

Shimano better get their xtr electronic stuff out, SRAM will be on gen 2 before gen 1 Shimano ever hits the street. Or they don't care, and take another few years to work on it.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Shimano is embarrassing in my opinion.
They went too slow with the 1x12, maybe they thought it will not work and left SRAM to take the risk?! Now they have a 12 speed but for a reason they can't make an electronic one! Road are "wireless" but with wires. Come on Shimano...


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Shimano needs to leapfrog SRAM, not just catch up again. Not sure how, but if sram can still innovate, certainly Shimano can. Different philosophy I guess. At the least, be lighter than SRAM, or something. I was a Shimano guy for 20+ years, dabbled in SRAM, didn't impress me. But my 2016 top fuel came sram, and I've had no issues at all, so I'd be happy to keep with SRAM stuff if it actually fit my bike.

I'd love someone to make a 12 speed cassette with the largest 2 cogs easily swappable. I know e-13 does, but some need a 10-46, some a 10-50, some a 10-52. One cassette. Like changing a front chainring. But that's dreaming. $450 cassettes are a great money maker I'm sure.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

The last xx1 i was priced on our store(Sweden) was around 520euros! But in their defence xx1 cassette and chains last way longer than anything. ...but 500 for a cassette????


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

cycloholic said:


> The last xx1 i was priced on our store(Sweden) was around 520euros! But in their defence xx1 cassette and chains last way longer than anything. ...but 500 for a cassette????


They last, but it wasn't that long ago a xtr cassette was $150 bucks, or less. The jump to xx1 11-speed, went to $375 or so. That was nuts. But think about that, $500+ for a cassette? What's coming, $1000? I know, I know, there are cheaper options. That's not the point. The point is how high the high-end has been pushed. There appears to be no limit. If sram came out with a $4,000 group set, they'd sell out I bet.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Prices are crazy, before some years 5.000euros was enough for a really good bike. Now 5.000 and it has second tier frame, GX, shitty wheels and the second/third tier suspension. But let's stay on topic😂


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I don't think Becca is a lesser rider/racer now...or was ever.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

cycloholic said:


> Prices are crazy, before some years 5.000euros was enough for a really good bike. Now 5.000 and it has second tier frame, GX, shitty wheels and the second/third tier suspension. But let's stay on topic😂


I'll bring it back on topic a bit. Us lesser than great racers, myself going on 31 years straight, started in 1991, always wanted the best. So XTR, whatever the top of the line was, that's what the serious racers wanted. It's normal, we see our heros riding this stuff. But it's gone so far beyond what a non-pro can afford. Or more correctly, what people have to actually earn and pay. Whereas pros don't pay for any of it directly. So it's harder to realize spending $12K on a XC top race bike is normal. In 2016, I paid $4000 plus tax on a 2016 top fuel 9.8. Not top of the line at all, but one level away. The top 9.9 was $7K I think? so it's not new. But to almost double that in 5 years is nuts. The world cup bikes are no longer anything I can afford. Correction, I can afford it if I absolutely had to, but it's such a bad investment now.

I would love to see, just once, a world cup level team base their whole image on affordable gear. Wouldn't that be cool? To see a team on XT and GX level stuff, mid-level forks, stuff like that. Just as a marketing ploy really. I'm not stupid, I know that makes no sense. 

And Becca was never a lesser rider, just didn't get much attention. But that's no longer the case. Good for her.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

It seems Shimano are still attached to a semi-wired option, at least that's the impression I got from James Huang on one of the Nerd Alert Podcasts.

If they could bring wireless they'd leapfrog straight away in my opinion with the superior shifting smoothness.

I still don't quite understand the benefit of the new SRAM der set up. Does it move in a different direction? And the hanger is now not the sacrificial item it once was?


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

It looks much flatter? doesn't stick out as much, but that's probably because it's extended. Very curious, the patent application doesn't exactly mention the benefit of this design, but it shows exactly what this looks like in the early drawings.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

mail_liam said:


> It seems Shimano are still attached to a semi-wired option, at least that's the impression I got from James Huang on one of the Nerd Alert Podcasts.
> 
> If they could bring wireless they'd leapfrog straight away in my opinion with the superior shifting smoothness.
> 
> I still don't quite understand the benefit of the new SRAM der set up. Does it move in a different direction? And the hanger is now not the sacrificial item it once was?


Time will show if there are any benefits!!
About Shimano smoother shifting, i agree BUT, because they have smoothen the shifting to a bigger gear(lower gear to higher), the chain actually shifts one link at a time, so it needs a whole turn of the cassette to actuall shift. From the other hand SRAM from the very first link that shifts it drops the whole chain directly to the heavier gear and while it is not smooth at all(in most of the cases) they shift faster. If you ride SRAM and then you try Shimano it is a delay that you can actually feel. On real world scenario though, i don't think it is a problem anyway, you are gonna get used to shift a bit earlier. What i hate to SRAM is when is unsynchronized and then skip a tooth to synchronize back when on the two biggest rings that they are narrow wide.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

ShortTravelMag said:


> It looks much flatter? doesn't stick out as much, but that's probably because it's extended. Very curious, the patent application doesn't exactly mention the benefit of this design, but it shows exactly what this looks like in the early drawings.


It is probably a stiffer design than a normal derailleur hanger. Years ago some road pros used steel derailleur hangers on their carbon bikes to make the shifting more accurate. 

The downside with that (and this design) is that when you do hit something you get to change the derailleur if you are lucky and the frame if you are unlucky.


----------



## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

Lahrs said:


> http://[URL]https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/camo[/URL]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Wolf Tooth setup rocks when you can use the stainless rings!


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bicis de los pro: Scott Spark RC World Cup de Martin Vidaurre


Martin Vidaurre es la estrella de la categoría sub-23. Con el maillot arco iris ha conseguido imponerse en las 2 primeras pruebas de la Copa del Mundo. Esta es su Scott Spark RC World Cup




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

La KTM Scarp Exonic de Victor Koretzky: obsesión por el peso


No esperes encontrar aquí grupos completos que van desde los frenos hasta la transmisión.




www.brujulabike.com


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## JimiMimni (Jun 2, 2008)

ShortTravelMag said:


> I would love to see, just once, a world cup level team base their whole image on affordable gear. Wouldn't that be cool? To see a team on XT and GX level stuff, mid-level forks, stuff like that. Just as a marketing ploy really. I'm not stupid, I know that makes no sense.


Isn't this the premise for the Rockrider team? I think they still have XX1 groups, but definitely budget TRP brakes, Manitou suspension, and the frames themselves are described as budget items. Also, I know this is barely worth mentioning, but the new cassettes are so difficult to construct that they can't be made cheaply. Older 10s and 9s cassettes were comparatively simple affairs and the price reflected. Keep in mind also that prices on bike equipment have gone up ~20% in the last two or three years alone due to "the pandemic, et al." (as a catch all for myriad contributing factors), so things are pretty ugly on the pricing side right now. As @cycloholic pointed out frame manufacturers are getting away with worse and worse specs for the same price point as that is the only way to get the bike into the same budget. 

Digression, apologies. 



cycloholic said:


> Time will show if there are any benefits!!
> About Shimano smoother shifting, i agree BUT, because they have smoothen the shifting to a bigger gear(lower gear to higher), the chain actually shifts one link at a time, so it needs a whole turn of the cassette to actuall shift. From the other hand SRAM from the very first link that shifts it drops the whole chain directly to the heavier gear and while it is not smooth at all(in most of the cases) they shift faster. If you ride SRAM and then you try Shimano it is a delay that you can actually feel. On real world scenario though, i don't think it is a problem anyway, you are gonna get used to shift a bit earlier. What i hate to SRAM is when is unsynchronized and then skip a tooth to synchronize back when on the two biggest rings that they are narrow wide.


If I understand correctly the Shimano Linkglide system will work more similarly to SRAM in terms of chain engagement during shifts. They claim this will be a massive improvement in durability without hindering their typically smooth shifting. I don't know that Linkglide will matter for anyone here since that is primarily oriented as an e-bike and lower tier shifting component technology with durability the primary concern. 



mail_liam said:


> It seems Shimano are still attached to a semi-wired option, at least that's the impression I got from James Huang on one of the Nerd Alert Podcasts.
> 
> If they could bring wireless they'd leapfrog straight away in my opinion with the superior shifting smoothness.
> 
> I still don't quite understand the benefit of the new SRAM der set up. Does it move in a different direction? And the hanger is now not the sacrificial item it once was?


I would assume Shimano is very attached to the wired option simply due to battery life. I don't think I've ever gone less than five weeks on a charge for my Di2 battery, and that was when I was riding my road bike exclusively in the 10-20 hours a week range. Obviously that pro weighs against the "oh, I forgot to charge the battery and now I'm hosed because I can't swap a fresh battery easily." con but still, for lazy folk like me that long charging interval is nice. 

I wonder if SRAM is trying to get their system to shift smoother by reinforcing the hanger area? I'm sure we'll see marketing claims about improved accuracy or reduced damage after crashes. "No more need to carry a spare hanger or hanger alignment tool!" If they're swapping the MTB system to the flat top chain I would have to assume one could also use the XPLR 12s cassette for a smaller 10-44t range to compete with Shimano's 10-45t option as well.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/tech-randoms-nove-mesto-xc-world-cup-2022.html


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

JimiMimni said:


> Isn't this the premise for the Rockrider team? I think they still have XX1 groups, but definitely budget TRP brakes, Manitou suspension, and the frames themselves are described as budget items. Also, I know this is barely worth mentioning, but the new cassettes are so difficult to construct that they can't be made cheaply. Older 10s and 9s cassettes were comparatively simple affairs and the price reflected. Keep in mind also that prices on bike equipment have gone up ~20% in the last two or three years alone due to "the pandemic, et al." (as a catch all for myriad contributing factors), so things are pretty ugly on the pricing side right now. As @cycloholic pointed out frame manufacturers are getting away with worse and worse specs for the same price point as that is the only way to get the bike into the same budget.
> 
> Digression, apologies.
> 
> ...


I don't think battery was ever a problem on srams!
About Shimano, the smoothen thing while shifting to smaller cog i think called hyperglide plus, i guess you mean the same!


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

cycloholic said:


> I don't think battery was ever a problem on srams!
> About Shimano, the smoothen thing while shifting to smaller cog i think called hyperglide plus, i guess you mean the same!


There's a new bracket of cassette etc which is built for something like twice or thrice the lifespan of the equivalent. I don't think it's in 12speed yet but I haven't followed it closely. It's more affordable, but much heavier.


I don't know if the stiffer hanger will improve shifting smoothness. I'm far from an engineer, but my understanding is that SRAM and Shimano approach shifting differently. Shimano uses clever ramps etc to smoothly transfer the chain from sprocket to sprocket. SRAM uses play in the derailleur pulleys. 

As mentioned earlier, SRAM is quick, but it _thunks_ into gear. All the broken chains I've seen first hand have been SRAM. Admittedly there's a humongous human component there and it's a concern watching/listening to riders shifting under full load without even backing off for a fraction of a fraction.

I would try AXS with Shimano chain, cassette, chainring, but for the cost involved and I know it's not going to shift better. It'd pretty up the front of my bike by one less cable though.

AXS Reverb would be a boon as I'd have a much less cluttered left side of my bars, but again. Damned costs and the end result isn't necessarily a better performer than my PNW Loam 🤷‍♂️.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

LMN said:


> The dreaded sore thumb. Suffered from that many times in a muddy race, but never with Di2.
> 
> Of all the electronic gizmos on bikes the one that I thought was absolutely brilliant was the Fox ICD suspension. The switch was so easy to use and subtle. Gave a three position lockout that works seemlessly with a dropout lever. Integraded into the Di2 system creating a super clean cockpit.
> 
> It is really too bad that Fox stopped making it.


My thumb doesn’t get sore with my grip shifters.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Skier78 said:


> It is probably a stiffer design than a normal derailleur hanger. Years ago some road pros used steel derailleur hangers on their carbon bikes to make the shifting more accurate.
> 
> The downside with that (and this design) is that when you do hit something you get to change the derailleur if you are lucky and the frame if you are unlucky.


The idea behind the SRAM UDH gear hanger is that rather than being a breakaway part when it gets an impact, such as a stick in the rear derailleur, the hanger rotates backwards instead as a way of protecting the rear derailleur and frame (pictured here with the UDH hanger rotated on a bike after a stick in the derailleur).










The new style SRAM AXS rear derailleur will do the same thing it looks like.

With an integrated hanger it also does away with the B tension screw and should be stiffer. A stiffer hanger could let SRAM use a stronger motor and more powerful return spring in the rear derailleur, which would give even more positive shifts.

The rear cassette is interesting. I was trying to work out whether it’s a 10-52 cassette or not. If it is a 52 tooth largest rear sprocket then the sprocket sizes might be tweaked. The current SRAM 10-52 cassette last 3 sprockets are 36-42-52. I think in that picture it could be something like 38-46-52, reducing the jump to the 52 sprocket and bringing it more into line with Shimano 12 speed spacing. The picture in this post is a current 10-52 cassette with the large jump to the 52 visible, which isn’t as big on the new AXS cassette.

With the cassette too those extra black sprockets could be aluminium, rather than steel, which would make for a lighter cassette at the cost of durability.

The SRAM flattop chain is a new chain too. It has weight saving slotted links that mark it out as different. The current SRAM Red flattop chain doesn’t have any slots in its links.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

brentos said:


> I've stuck with mechanical for this and a couple other reasons.
> 
> I will say, however, that there IS in fact an advantage. At mile 140 of the Marji Gesick out and back my hands and wrists were so sore that I could not shift my mechanical X01. The the person I was racing against had AXS, and I'm fairly certain I could have shifted the AXS...every shift I heard him make was just a dagger to my heart. zzt, zzt, zzt...lucky bastard.


The biggest advantage for SRAM AXS I’ve found is when it’s cold, wet and miserable weather. There have been quite a few times over the last few years with SRAM AXS where my gloves have been soaked through, hands like claws with no strength from the cold, barely able to hold the bars or get a water bottle out of a cage and yet I could still keep changing gear normally with the light action electric gear paddle shifter.

In the past riding in the same conditions, using SRAM or Shimano mechanical shifting, I’ve been in big trouble where my right thumb would lose the strength to be able to push the large shifter lever and I’d end up trying to change gear by hitting it with the palm of my hand instead.😂


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ShortTravelMag said:


> They last, but it wasn't that long ago a xtr cassette was $150 bucks, or less. The jump to xx1 11-speed, went to $375 or so. That was nuts. But think about that, $500+ for a cassette? What's coming, $1000? I know, I know, there are cheaper options. That's not the point. The point is how high the high-end has been pushed. There appears to be no limit. If sram came out with a $4,000 group set, they'd sell out I bet.


I worked out the math and X01 (same as xx1, just a different finish) is cheaper for me per year than SLX, let alone XT or XTR. I don’t get more life out of the shimano cassettes than I did with 10 and 9 speed ones, but I do get somewhere around 5 seasons or more with the x-dome one-piece cassettes. Works out to cheaper. Now, if you have to be using the latest and greatest this isn’t always a good option, but I’m happy with my gear combos and the longevity.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

X01 vs xx1 cassette same weight but something different in finish, xx1 last more(claimed)


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## chase2wheels (Oct 16, 2003)

carlostruco said:


> I always have a Di2 (road) spare battery on hand as they tend to die before warranty is up.
> 
> SRAM Eagle AXS for MTB? Derailleur is to expensive to mess up on a crash...so no!


I’ve had multiple crashes on my AXS rear derailleurs and they are still running strong after 3 years of riding.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Random thought, why do you suppose we've seen so much investment in electronic suspension with super clever gyro activated compression controls, but no one has done the (I would assume) low hanging fruit of electronic/wireless lockout remote.

Seems like it is an AXS/Rockshox match made in heaven.

I understand the Rockshox version is not really designed around XC type riding and bar lockouts, but still.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Random thought, why do you suppose we've seen so much investment in electronic suspension with super clever gyro activated compression controls, but no one has done the (I would assume) low hanging fruit of electronic/wireless lockout remote.
> 
> Seems like it is an AXS/Rockshox match made in heaven.
> 
> I understand the Rockshox version is not really designed around XC type riding and bar lockouts, but still.


Ant+ lockout would be good.


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## chase2wheels (Oct 16, 2003)

NordieBoy said:


> Ant+ lockout would be good.


Agree. I would bet they are working on a XC version of the flight attendant. XC racing seems to be the perfect application for it. While the Specialized Brain is good, it’s long-term reliability (more than say 500 miles) is questionable, ask me how I know 😂


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

Magura had wireless remote for front and rear suspension back in 2013, you could even choose automatic or manual lockout. An updated version of that would be nice.

eLECT suspension forks, shocks and seatpost - MAGURA


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

chase2wheels said:


> Agree. I would bet they are working on a XC version of the flight attendant. XC racing seems to be the perfect application for it. While the Specialized Brain is good, it’s long-term reliability (more than say 500 miles) is questionable, ask me how I know 😂


I've been using the motorbike version of the brain (Ricor Intiminator) for about 110,000km since 2009.
Need to transplant it from the old TT350 to the Transalp and tune it for the 130kg heavier bike.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Al detalles la exótica BiXS Pace del equipo de Lukas Fluckiger


En 2022 ha visto la luz el BiXS Performance Race Team, un equipo suizo de Copa del Mundo y con el que Lukas Fluckiger ha dado finalmente el paso al otro lad




www.brujulabike.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Ghost Lector FS Unicorn II mountain bike brings bling to the XC World Cup, plus new Bike Ahead bar!


Full-chrome Ghost Lector FS Unicorn bike is the MTB vision of a World Cup XC team manager with trick Bike Ahead wheels & new 1-piece cockpit!




bikerumor.com


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

carlostruco said:


> Ghost Lector FS Unicorn II mountain bike brings bling to the XC World Cup, plus new Bike Ahead bar!
> 
> 
> Full-chrome Ghost Lector FS Unicorn bike is the MTB vision of a World Cup XC team manager with trick Bike Ahead wheels & new 1-piece cockpit!
> ...


Just came to post that. Really cool! (I have pretty long limbs and really want to test one of these...we really need Ghost and Merida in 'Merica).


----------



## AndrewHardtail (Nov 2, 2021)

smartyiak said:


> we really need Ghost and Merida in 'Merica).


REI has been selling Ghost MTBs in the US for a few years now


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

AndrewHardtail said:


> REI has been selling Ghost MTBs in the US for a few years now


But I think it's limited models and limited supply. Last time I checked, you couldn't get a Lector through REI. Maybe I was given bad info...I dunno.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> Al detalles la exótica BiXS Pace del equipo de Lukas Fluckiger
> 
> 
> En 2022 ha visto la luz el BiXS Performance Race Team, un equipo suizo de Copa del Mundo y con el que Lukas Fluckiger ha dado finalmente el paso al otro lad
> ...


His saddle is pushed almost all the way back. Bec's saddle on her F Podium is slammed all the way back.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Skier78 said:


> Magura had wireless remote for front and rear suspension back in 2013, you could even choose automatic or manual lockout. An updated version of that would be nice.
> 
> eLECT suspension forks, shocks and seatpost - MAGURA


No one ever mentions that Magura system. Never saw one, or even saw a review back in the day. But that was 10 years ago. It's an exact blueprint to what will become the norm someday. I don't even need automatic dampening and all that, just give me electronic lockouts without having gigantic batteries hanging off of things.

Wouldn't a tiny little dyno system in the pulleys of the rear mech, or a tiny solar block be cool for AXS? Could help top off the batteries a bit, and if a battery dies completely, maybe just pedal manually for a few minutes to get enough juice to shift a few times.

All this stuff seems not that far fetched anymore.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Yep, I don't see a need for full automation here. I mean, it could work excellent for 95% of situations, and then fail or misinterpret for 5%.

I would want to draw a line in bike automation at the point of "thinking and deciding" for me.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

In this photo Sina Frei is using what looks like a new tyre. They’re labelled on the sidewall as Specialized Captain tyres, which is a name that hasn’t been used for several years.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-nove-mesto-xc-world-cup-2022.html


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## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

WR304 said:


> In this photo Sina Frei is using what looks like a new tyre. They’re labelled on the sidewall as Specialized Captain tyres, which is a name that hasn’t been used for several years.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-nove-mesto-xc-world-cup-2022.html


I noticed this too! Wonder if it's a faster rolling Renegade version? Lots of very low tread tires in use out there.


----------



## teleken (Jul 22, 2005)

WR304 said:


> In this photo Sina Frei is using what looks like a new tyre. They’re labelled on the sidewall as Specialized Captain tyres, which is a name that hasn’t been used for several years.
> 
> 
> There have been sightings of that tire for a few months. Looks similar to the previous The Captain tire (named in honor of team captain/ MTB legend Ned Overend who helped in the design)
> it has a prominant center tread but this new one has much smaller knobs. I ran the old version for years on the rear it was fast rolling with the center tread but here in Front Range Colorado gravel it became known as Captain Hook because it rolled off the center ridge and well that nickname says it all.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

WR304 said:


> In this photo Sina Frei is using what looks like a new tyre. They’re labelled on the sidewall as Specialized Captain tyres, which is a name that hasn’t been used for several years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


some more information here: SPECIALIZED CAPTAIN CONTROL T5: NUOVO COPERTONE "SGAMATO” AD ALBENGA

Very low profile but rather large knobs, almost looks like a worn out tire.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Skier78 said:


> some more information here: SPECIALIZED CAPTAIN CONTROL T5: NUOVO COPERTONE "SGAMATO” AD ALBENGA
> 
> Very low profile but rather large knobs, almost looks like a worn out tire.


I wonder where this slots in vis-a-vis the Renegade, which seems to cover the same use case.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Pinarello working on a new MTB for Tom Pidcock. Fausto Pinarello confirms the target is Paris 2024. 









Pinarello está desarrollando una MTB para Pidcock y Pauline Ferrand-Prevot


Pinarello, principal patrocinador de material del INEOS Grenadier, aún no tiene una mountain bike para su ciclista estrella




www.brujulabike.com


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

carlostruco said:


> Pinarello working on a new MTB for Tom Pidcock. Fausto Pinarello confirms the target is Paris 2024.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you even comprehend what a pinarello MTB complete bike would cost? $20K? Especially with some electronic suspension and stuff. 

They'll probably sell out in a week.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

ShortTravelMag said:


> Can you even comprehend what a pinarello MTB complete bike would cost? $20K? Especially with some electronic suspension and stuff.
> 
> They'll probably sell out in a week.


The bankers will sell their S-works in a heart beat


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

For sure. They have road bikes that are 20K, so certainly a mtb with all the gadgets, new SRAM AXS or XTR by 2024, and you're at 20. Pidcock could ride the Rockrider bike and still win though. Which is kind of funny.


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

ShortTravelMag said:


> Can you even comprehend what a pinarello MTB complete bike would cost? $20K? Especially with some electronic suspension and stuff.
> 
> They'll probably sell out in a week.


And you'll likely get Pina's trademark ugliness* as a bonus (cue the tomatoes at my head).



*stolen from the original "melted frame": DeRosa Tango. (warning: it can't be unseen).


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

ShortTravelMag said:


> Pidcock could ride the Rockrider bike and still win though. Which is kind of funny.


Talking about Rockrider.
That team use Manitou suspension. Specifically, R7 Pro fork in the front and Mara Inline in the rear.
It's what many in this forum considered be have superior damping and control to Rockshox and Fox offering. However, fork is 150g heavier than Fox 34SC, Shock is 80g heavier than Fox DPS.
I wonder if rider at that level have their choice, would they swallow 230g more weight for better damping fork and shock? Or keep it light with custom tuned RS/Fox stuff.


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

It makes me want to call Manitou and let them know, if they trimmed 150g off their fork, or even a touch more, they could probably sell triple what they do. Market the crap out of it as the lightweight leader, and many weight weenies would love to have something quality but not Fox/RS on their bike. I know I would. The R7 aren't cheap either, last I checked, listed at almost 1K just like the others.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I have the R7 Pro & Mara Inline on a Spur and they are both phenomenal.

People actually comment on how rigid the R7 in particular feels when they ride it, in a good way.

My opinion is that Manitou's play should be to get the R7 to a 130mm travel option, then it's playing in an entirely new category and all of the sudden looks pretty light. Mine weighed 1644 grams as I recall out of the box including the front axle.


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

That, and go for a lightweight champ for XC 100/120mm. MRP, DVO, CaneCreek, all these other fork makers are so heavy, that no XC racer would use one. Seems like a no brainer to enter the XC market that is ruled 95% by only 2 brands.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

ShortTravelMag said:


> It makes me want to call Manitou and let them know, if they trimmed 150g off their fork, or even a touch more, they could probably sell triple what they do. Market the crap out of it as the lightweight leader, and many weight weenies would love to have something quality but not Fox/RS on their bike. I know I would. The R7 aren't cheap either, last I checked, listed at almost 1K just like the others.


I'm very happy with a tuned 34SC and DPS, but would entertain the option of an equally light, but more adjustable and functional competitor if one existed.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I have 3 Manitou forks, 130, 120 and 110. 
ISO air and ABS+. 

Fault free for 4, 6 and 7y respectively, with only lowers oil change every 6mths and seal change every couple of years.

Performance wise, I got nothing close from Fox or RS to match Manitou.

So far, fan for life, and probably biting the bullet for Mara to replace DPS.

Those extra grams for me are not a factor compared to performance and reliability.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

ShortTravelMag said:


> It makes me want to call Manitou and let them know, if they trimmed 150g off their fork, or even a touch more, they could probably sell triple what they do. Market the crap out of it as the lightweight leader, and many weight weenies would love to have something quality but not Fox/RS on their bike. I know I would. The R7 aren't cheap either, last I checked, listed at almost 1K just like the others.


Manitou beating RS and Fox in weight while keeping their performance wouldn't be easy.

Manitou's good dampers aren't bladder cartridge. It has more oil that carry some weight penalty in the damper over bladder cartridge design with less oil.
While R7 structure is stiffer than Fox 34SC, people judge it by 32mm stanchion. If they reduce stiffness to Fox 34SC level or typical 32mm stanchion fork level. Would that be acceptable though?
In my imagination, place they could save some weight are:
1) Axle design. A normal looking ultra light axle weight way less than Manitou's Hexlock2. This'd unfortunately reduce stiffness.
2) Top cap of IVA. change it to volume spacer system would save grams when weight it on the scale with no volume spacers.
3) Carbon steerer? Reynolds might be able to help like they did for Hayes Dominion T2 carbon lever blade. Collaboration of brands in the same parent company is a good marketing.
4) Make fork narrower, step-cast design?

Then, after Manitou spend these effort, Fox and RS can one up them next year by making lighter fork easily with their huge budget (vs Manitou).
RS is at big advantage on weight front by having Raceday damper that weight just half of Fox Fit4, and maybe just 1/3 of Manitou's damper. They could reduce stiffness to save weight and win weight-weenies arm race.
While Fox already sacrificed some structural stiffness to save weight on current 34SC. They still can go lighter or stiffer next gen by employing reverse arch like the Fox 32TC gravel fork. Or they put Grip2 into 34SC and bite the market that willing to add some weight for damper performance from Manitou.


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Agreed. I looked up the R7, but closed the browser after seeing the weight. For a 120mm fork on a racebike it's a dealbreaker when the 2022 Fox 34 is so good in stock form.


----------



## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

westin said:


> Agreed. I looked up the R7, but closed the browser after seeing the weight. For a 120mm fork on a racebike it's a dealbreaker when the 2022 Fox 34 is so good in stock form.


I picked up an R7. Was quite a bit cheaper than the Fox/RS offerings where I bought. Plus user-friendly for maintenance. Quite a bit lighter than my 6 year old Pike--so I make my weight comparison there instead. 😀


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Hexsense said:


> Manitou beating RS and Fox in weight while keeping their performance wouldn't be easy.
> 
> Manitou's good dampers are (semi?) open bath. That carry some weight penalty in the damper over bladder cartridge design with less oil.
> While R7 structure is stiffer than Fox 34SC, people judge it by 32mm stanchion. If they reduce stiffness to Fox 34SC level or typical 32mm stanchion fork level. Would that be acceptable though?
> ...


One of the downsides to that super-light RaceDay damper is the fact it really can’t be modified like a Fit4 or other systems. No real custom tuning. No real compression damping, either (well, very minimal, and not adjustable) so dependent on just the air spring for the compression stroke - and the rebound isn’t sophisticated either. It matters more at 120mm than at 100.

While it’s certainly no Enduro fork, I am comparatively very impressed with the 2022 SC Fit4, especially with the Runt making the air spring far less of a compromise between small bump performance and midstroke support. The damper is far better than the Race Day. The chassis is stiff enough for my needs.

I’d like to try a R7 Pro sometime, for comparison.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

XC race forks involve a compromise between performance and weight. And generally you can get away with it for XCO racing. Set your fork stiff, set the rebound fast and do your push-ups and you have a bike that descends very fast for a minute or two.

The sid is perfect example of this. As a general riding fork it is actually pretty darn terrible. But as race day fork it is hard to beat. 


Where XC forks really show their limit is on longer descents. Then the compromises they made to be really light become a bigger issue. 

One of the stages in BCBR this year has a 15 minute aggressive descent. The kind of descent where a good fork that takes care of your hands can make significant time.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

tommyrod74 said:


> While it’s certainly no Enduro fork, I am comparatively very impressed with the 2022 SC Fit4, especially with the Runt making the air spring far less of a compromise between small bump performance and midstroke support.


Hmm, that Runt is interesting.
I have 2022 34SC but no Runt. Setting LSC at 4 click from full open, it's harsher than my Manitou R7 Pro. If I remember correctly, I came to that setting because any less LSC and fork will dive and lack support. And more is just harsher. R7 is both more supportive and less harsh than stock 34SC.

So, add Runt, reduce pressure. Then Fox34SC will be less harsh and also have more support than stock? I thought the harshness is the fault of fit4 damper. But maybe 3 chamber airspring could help it?


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Hexsense said:


> Hmm, that Runt is interesting.
> I have 2022 34SC but no Runt. Setting LSC at 4 click from full open, it's harsher than my Manitou R7 Pro. If I remember correctly, I came to that setting because any less LSC and fork will dive and lack support. And more is just harsher. R7 is both more supportive and less harsh than stock 34SC.
> 
> So, add Runt, reduce pressure. Then Fox34SC will be less harsh and also have more support than stock? I thought the harshness is the fault of fit4 damper. But maybe 3 chamber airspring could help it?


I had my 34 cart pushed, I dropped an Avy damper into there, those things helped, but incrementally and not nearly as much as the avalanche damper in my Lyrik. That's just a mow-down-everything fork and while I don't expect 120mm to act like 170, I also did not expect my 120mm 34SC to be harsher than my 32SC, which it has always been. I have to think there is something screwy with the spring, it seems to be only option. I too just got a Runt for my 34 initial results are positive...although as mentioned above, a race-fork is kind of a "deal with it" type thing. That might be the problem with the 34, it's "trail" enough that users are using it for every-day riding, but Fox tuned it for race-day only...although that seems a little short sighted and again, it seems to be more about the spring than the damper.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Delete


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Luftkappe Air Piston Kit - Fox & Rockshox Forks


Make a good fork a great fork. Taking everything we learned with the Corset air sleeves, the Luftkappe is a new air piston assembly that enlarges the negative air chamber to reduce the initial spring rate. This lets you run higher air pressure for more support in the middle and end of the...




www.vorsprungsuspension.com





Are Runt/Luftkappe upgrades worthwhile for XC use on modern (post-2020) forks? Particularly Fox 34 Performance Elite 120mm Fit4 if we want to get specific.

I'd never considered any of these options (and had never heard of Runt) until the last few posts, always assuming they were more geared to big hit bikes.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> XC race forks involve a compromise between performance and weight. And generally you can get away with it for XCO racing. Set your fork stiff, set the rebound fast and do your push-ups and you have a bike that descends very fast for a minute or two.
> 
> The sid is perfect example of this. As a general riding fork it is actually pretty darn terrible. But as race day fork it is hard to beat.
> 
> ...


^^^ This.
SiD is not an every day fork yet weekend warriors are proudly showing off their SiD's while training for the Cape Epic.RS have better forks for that purpose but its too cheap to be seen on anything other than entry level bikes. Its called Reba. Its probably the best VFM fork out there and better suited to 90% of riders . Instead I see all shpes and sizes trying t make a SID SL or SID work for them because its what the best use but those products are tuned toward the 2% of riders who take racing seriously. Then when i see the masseuse working on forearms and shoulders in the recovery tent due to harshly set up forks but hey, the blokes all look pro.



Jayem said:


> I had my 34 cart pushed, I dropped an Avy damper into there, those things helped, but incrementally and not nearly as much as the avalanche damper in my Lyrik. That's just a mow-down-everything fork and while I don't expect 120mm to act like 170, I also did not expect my 120mm 34SC to be harsher than my 32SC, which it has always been. I have to think there is something screwy with the spring, it seems to be only option. I too just got a Runt for my 34 initial results are positive...although as mentioned above, a race-fork is kind of a "deal with it" type thing. That might be the problem with the 34, it's "trail" enough that users are using it for every-day riding, but Fox tuned it for race-day only...although that seems a little short sighted and again, it seems to be more about the spring than the damper.


you might be more interested in the std 34 rather the SC which even though also has a FiT4 it is very much a race tuned fork. I also found the 34SC 120 tobe a little more harsh unless the LSC was tuned down to the point of it diving under braking. The longer fork needs a bit more LSC to keep it feeling like a shorter travel fork in the slow stuff and under pedalling but get the benefit in the HSC range with extra travel. My view is the 120mm forks should have 3 position dampers and designed with the HSC and LSC different for each of the 3 positions. All current design only change the HSC as far as I can tell


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

/ignore 😂


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I've got a Reba, but the Machete is the one that's installed on the Anthem. Much more plush, tuneable, supportive, heavy...


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> I've got a Reba, but the Machete is the one that's installed on the Anthem. Much more plush, tuneable, supportive, heavy...


that is a bit of a beast but around the same weight as a Lefty 2.0 so it's not that bad. Manitou dampers have always performed well and have always tended to be stiffer than Fox and RS, likely due to thicker walls in the stanchions (also likely why they're slightly heavier)


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

My Minute is 1780g.

I don't know, perhaps I am too old school, but that weight for me is a perfectly acceptable xco/m weight for a reliable high performing fork.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Hexsense said:


> Hmm, that Runt is interesting.
> I have 2022 34SC but no Runt. Setting LSC at 4 click from full open, it's harsher than my Manitou R7 Pro. If I remember correctly, I came to that setting because any less LSC and fork will dive and lack support. And more is just harsher. R7 is both more supportive and less harsh than stock 34SC.
> 
> So, add Runt, reduce pressure. Then Fox34SC will be less harsh and also have more support than stock? I thought the harshness is the fault of fit4 damper. But maybe 3 chamber airspring could help it?


I run the LSC fully open and rely on the secondary air spring to support me during hard braking and out of the saddle efforts. Understanding of course that the LSC is never truly “off” just as open as the adjustment range allows.

Recommended main spring air pressure (stock SC 34 configuration) for my weight is (IIRC) around 78 psi. I run 60 in the “low” chamber of the Runt and 120 in the “high”. Amazingly smooth on small bumps but will not blow through the midrange without an appropriate impact. Great support through compression dips and under hard braking.

It takes a minute to find your ideal pressures but it’s a big improvement over stock.

I raced it this past Sunday in a long Cat 1 XC race with lots of varied terrain - high speed flow but also steep climbs and descents, so hard to pick one setting to suit all of the lap. I never touched the fork once, it handled everything well.


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

tommyrod74 said:


> I run the LSC fully open and rely on the secondary air spring to support me during hard braking and out of the saddle efforts. Understanding of course that the LSC is never truly “off” just as open as the adjustment range allows.
> 
> Recommended main spring air pressure (stock SC 34 configuration) for my weight is (IIRC) around 78 psi. I run 60 in the “low” chamber of the Runt and 120 in the “high”. Amazingly smooth on small bumps but will not blow through the midrange without an appropriate impact. Great support through compression dips and under hard braking.
> 
> ...


Wondering if Runt can be used in the lower priced SC34 Performance Stepcast which has basic GRIP damper. If you're not touching anything and keep damper wide open, the Runt would make the Performance "perform" (pun intended) like the SC34 Factory or Performance Elite?

edit: just emailed DSD, the 120mm Fox 34 SC is sold out. But they have pic on the product page showing a basic Grip damper.

edit#2: found their reply on old PB feature: "
We often do this with Marzocchi Z1 Bombers and Performance Series Fox 34 / 36. The GRIP damper is really good and very tune-able. If customers buy a fork from us, we include a custom tune ($50 value for Grip 1) and tear it down to check the bushing fitment as well as clean all the excess slick honey out of the air spring. We then replace the TSS seals with SKF seals ($40).

So the pricing breakdown is $700 MSRP for a Performance Series Fox fork or Marzocchi Z1. Plus $200 for the RUNT and $40 for the seals = $940. MSRP on a factory series fork is $1100."


----------



## JimiMimni (Jun 2, 2008)

Skier78 said:


> some more information here: SPECIALIZED CAPTAIN CONTROL T5: NUOVO COPERTONE "SGAMATO” AD ALBENGA
> 
> Very low profile but rather large knobs, almost looks like a worn out tire.


The design is almost a split between the knob height of the Renegade and the knob spacing on the Fast Trak. 



tommyrod74 said:


> I wonder where this slots in vis-a-vis the Renegade, which seems to cover the same use case.





csteven71 said:


> I noticed this too! Wonder if it's a faster rolling Renegade version? Lots of very low tread tires in use out there.


Reading the Google Translate on the linked article it sounds like this iteration of the Captain may be aimed at that loose-over-hard terrain. Since they changed the Renegade and Fast Trak last year and made both more aggressive tires, the team riders might have been looking for something faster rolling and sketchier like the old Renegade. This could also be a competitor to the Thunder Burt/Aspen ST semi-slick market. Maybe it handles differently than the Renegade, but is faster than the Fast Trak? The Renegade requires a lot of lean to grip and isn't very confidence inspiring in kitty litter loose stuff.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

westin said:


> Wondering if Runt can be used in the lower priced SC34 Performance Stepcast which has basic GRIP damper. If you're not touching anything and keep damper wide open, the Runt would make the Performance "perform" (pun intended) like the SC34 Factory or Performance Elite?
> 
> edit: just emailed DSD, the 120mm Fox 34 SC is sold out. But they have pic on the product page showing a basic Grip damper.
> 
> ...


Some things to remember:

1) The Fit4 damper run with compression adjuster full open still has a compression circuit it's going through, it's just as open as the stock adjustment range allows. The rebound circuit is also different from the GRIP1. That said, I thought the GRIP1 was a great damper, too. DSD can tune it further to meet your needs.

2) You could probably find a new (or lightly used) takeoff 34 SC Performance for a lot less than retail. People "upgrade" to the Factory all the time and sell the Performance for relatively cheap. Might be a better overall cost to have a used one tuned by DSD. For example, one listed at $550 just sold on Pinkbike; actual selling price was likely less than that.

I'd bet a 34 SC GRIP1 tuned by DSD with honed bushings and new seals plus Runt would be a fantastic fork. And yes - the Runt is on the air spring side, any version of the 34 SC can use the Runt, regardless of damper.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

tommyrod74 said:


> Some things to remember:
> 
> 1) The Fit4 damper run with compression adjuster full open still has a compression circuit it's going through, it's just as open as the stock adjustment range allows. The rebound circuit is also different from the GRIP1. That said, I thought the GRIP1 was a great damper, too. DSD can tune it further to meet your needs.
> 
> ...


I bought that PB fork.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

westin said:


> I bought that PB fork.


Well, there you go. Done and dusted


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bicis de los pro: Ghost Lector SuperFit de Caroline Bohe


La Ghost Lector SF es una rígida que no pasa desapercibida. Aún menos en la versión que usa el Ghost Factory Racing. Estos son sus detalles




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bicis de los pro: Scott Spark RC World Cup de Lars Forster (campeón de Europa edition)


La Scott Spark RC World Cup de Lars Forster es una de las bicis más llamativas de la parrilla de salida. Es un homenaje al actual campeón de Europa de XCO




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

XC Pro Bike: Prototypes on #StandWithUkraine custom American Eagle Flow of Hudyma & Belomoina


Two Ukrainian pro XC racers take on the World Cup on custom American Eagle Flow Ukraine mountain bikes, with prototype wheels & suspension!




bikerumor.com


----------



## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

Equipment question rather than what they're running. How many miles do the elite riders get out of their drivetrain? Chainring, chain, cassette. Assume that they don't end up in some muddy drivetrain destroying race or some sort of super nasty dust that grinds away and wrecks it.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Cerpss said:


> Equipment question rather than what they're running. How many miles do the elite riders get out of their drivetrain? Chainring, chain, cassette. Assume that they don't end up in some muddy drivetrain destroying race or some sort of super nasty dust that grinds away and wrecks it.


Chains tend to be replaced frequently, way more than necessary. Cassettes and chain rings are typically are ran for a full season depending on the manufacture.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There are some pictures of an updated Rock Shox Twistlock remote lockout lever here:









Spotted: Next-gen RockShox TwistLoc shock remote prototype brings back classic GripShift look & feel!


We spotted an unreleased RockShox TwistLoc remote shock lockout at the XC World Cup. Can this prototype bring back GripShift style!




bikerumor.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There’s a more detailed look at Stephane Tempier’s Rockrider bike here:

The badge on it made me laugh. It’s no longer enough to just have the rider’s name on the frame a picture is added too!









XC Pro Bike: Decathlon Rockrider 900S FC prototype XC mountain bike of Stephane Tempier


Decathlon's affordable Rockrider mountain bikes turned up on the UCI MTB XC World Cup, so we took a closer look at the prototype 900S FC...




bikerumor.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This is part of the Loic Bruni Specialized Downhill pajama range, not really XC, but for a combination of the most logos and the most impractical buttery yellow colour combination these socks are perfect! I’m wondering what colour they will look like after being ridden once in mud and then washed? 😂









Specialized and Loic Bruni celebrate smoothness and race fuel with the Gravity Butter Collection


Specialized and Loic Bruni spread a smooth new Gravity Butter Collection, featuring a buttery yellow DH kit, trail gear, and accessories...




bikerumor.com


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

WR304 said:


> There are some pictures of an updated Rock Shox Twistlock remote lockout lever here:


I have the twistloc on my Oiz (which was necessary to make room for AXS dropper), and I rather like that setup for lockouts. What I don't like is the push-to-unlock configuration of Fox stuff. Got murdered at a stage of the Pike Peak Apex when my cable popped off, I lost the screw, and my fork went rigid.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

bikeranzin said:


> I have the twistloc on my Oiz (which was necessary to make room for AXS dropper), and I rather like that setup for lockouts. What I don't like is the push-to-unlock configuration of Fox stuff. Got murdered at a stage of the Pike Peak Apex when my cable popped off, I lost the screw, and my fork went rigid.


fortunately for Fox-o-philes they have seen the error of their ways


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Why on earth would they make the twist lock bigger and uglier? Wow. The current one is so nice and tidy. You hardly notice it. That really looks bad. I always thought if they made gripshifters as slim and narrow on the bars as they could, they’d still be used by people. They take up too many mm on the bars. Brake levers go in, and you end up with a half grip.

Seems like a very weird step backwards.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

WR304 said:


> There are some pictures of an updated Rock Shox Twistlock remote lockout lever here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. Good to see it integrate so nicely with the ESI grip. More options.

I wonder/wish they'd do a 3-pos version...


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Interesting. Good to see it integrate so nicely with the ESI grip. More options.
> 
> I wonder/wish they'd do a 3-pos version...



i'm guessing that the larger drum diameter is to allow for more than 10mm of cable pull so perhaps it is bigger for 3 pos rear shocks and forks...


----------



## WithOrWithout87 (Jul 2, 2020)

Anyone know why the female World Cup riders are more likely to run a hardtail then the men?

Is the weight difference a larger percentage of total rider + bike weight so it becomes more advantageous on the climbs or is it something else?


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

A couple of reasons. 

1. Power output. A rider climbing at 250 watts loses 40s per kilogram of mass per 1000m of climbing. Whereas someone climbing at 400 watts only loses 25s

2. Speed across the flats. The faster you are going the bigger difference FS makes on flats


----------



## Cardy George (Dec 3, 2020)

ShortTravelMag said:


> The current one is so nice and tidy. You hardly notice it.


I mechanic on the side of my day-job and after a club race one of my clients asked me to have a look at her lockout because it wasn't working. Had a quick look at the button and it was sitting weird, but we both had places we needed to be so we arranged for me to grab it when she came back from vacation.

That was 6 weeks ago. She's had the bike for 9 months. We both learnt yesterday that she has a Twist-lock


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Brad said:


> i'm guessing that the larger drum diameter is to allow for more than 10mm of cable pull so perhaps it is bigger for 3 pos rear shocks and forks...


I was wondering that too. That larger size is more like the grip shift gear shifter than the current small twistloc so could have extra clicks inside.


----------



## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

WR304 said:


> I was wondering that too. That larger size is more like the grip shift gear shifter than the current small twistloc so could have extra clicks inside.


My Blur came with one of these and the Push to Unlock suspension. It loved to lock itself out during descents.


----------



## Mongoguy (Oct 16, 2019)

Suns_PSD said:


> I have the R7 Pro & Mara Inline on a Spur and they are both phenomenal.
> 
> People actually comment on how rigid the R7 in particular feels when they ride it, in a good way.
> 
> My opinion is that Manitou's play should be to get the R7 to a 130mm travel option, then it's playing in an entirely new category and all of the sudden looks pretty light. Mine weighed 1644 grams as I recall out of the box including the front axle.


Hopefully Manitou starts selling a remote soon for the VTT damper.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

bikeranzin said:


> I have the twistloc on my Oiz (which was necessary to make room for AXS dropper), and I rather like that setup for lockouts. What I don't like is the push-to-unlock configuration of Fox stuff. Got murdered at a stage of the Pike Peak Apex when my cable popped off, I lost the screw, and my fork went rigid.


I have never had to use it but I keep some duct tape wraped around my seatpost to tape the lockout into the open position if I have a cable failure.


----------



## slashy (Dec 7, 2005)

Brad said:


> i'm guessing that the larger drum diameter is to allow for more than 10mm of cable pull so perhaps it is bigger for 3 pos rear shocks and forks...


either that or they want to reduce the amount you need to twist to get the lockout active.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Or just to have better grip.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I'm still puzzled why a simple wireless remote controlled lockout (simple button) with a simple AA size and 2032 battery can't be a solution for this problem. B

Is there a patent issue over this? Does Magura has it?


----------



## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Fox filed a patent in 2008: US20100066051A1 - Methods and apparatus for suspension lock out and signal generation - Google Patents
Magura filed in 2012 and 2013: DE102012214867A1 - Electronically controlled suspension system for bicycle, has control element that is connected with electronics module through radio signal for controlling drive signal for actuator - Google Patents US20150197308A1 - Electronically Controlled Suspension System, Method for Controlling a Suspension System and Computer Program - Google Patents
Shimano filed in 2017: US10843757B2 - Bicycle electric telescopic apparatus, bicycle power supply system, and bicycle electric component system - Google Patents
SRAM filed in 2019: US20210179226A1 - Bicycle suspension components and electronic control devices - Google Patents

Everybody has their own patent. Does the potential market justify the development costs? Or is everybody in a holding pattern in fear of litigation for infringement when a viable product actual hits the market?

I'd like to think that level-heads in each company realize that 4 separate battery packs on a bicycle is ludicrous (and customers who actually want this are better served by selling them a more-profitable eBike).


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

My guess, RS will bring it soon with flight attendant.


----------



## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

cycloholic said:


> My guess, RS will bring it soon with flight attendant.


I guess the future holds 4 battery packs


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> I guess the future holds 4 battery packs


A full SRAM wireless MTB setup would be more than 4 batteries! There are 4 of the rechargeable Etap battery packs and then an additional 3 other batteries required also making 7 batteries.



https://www.bikeperfect.com/reviews/rockshox-flight-attendant-suspension-system-review



AXS rear derailleur = rechargeable Etap battery
AXS dropper post = rechargeable Etap battery
Rock Shox Flight Attendant rear shock = rechargeable Etap battery
Rock Shox Flight Attendant fork = rechargeable Etap battery

AXS right paddle shifter (gears) = CR2032 battery
AXS left paddle shifter (dropper and flight attendant) = CR2032 battery
Flight Attendant crank spindle sensor = AAA battery

There are plenty of other SRAM battery powered gadgets to add in on top for true battery overload. A Quarq powermeter (1x battery), Quarq Shockwiz (2x batteries) and the SRAM AirWiz bluetooth tyre pressure monitoring system (2x batteries) plus a Wahoo or Garmin head unit to view info on (1x battery).

That’s 13 batteries to keep an eye on for a non ebike.😂


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

With the Rock Shox Flight Attendant electronic suspension apparently it makes the same “vvvvt”, “vvvvt”, “vvvvt” motor noise as a SRAM AXS rear derailleur does when changing gear. Only because the electronic suspension is adjusting itself, opening and closing all the time that “vvvvt” noise is going on constantly from both the rear suspension and fork whilst riding. 

That constant noise from the suspension has the potential to become really grating very quickly!


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I personally think the sound is cool, but that's just me. Are there confirmed reports that Flight Attendant is coming to the SID or SID Luxe? It looks to be pretty heavy so I'd be skeptical, but if so, fantastic replacement for the Brain SID


----------



## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Hell, I don't like the noise of the derailleur with or without electronics.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I just built a bike for one of our kids (he is 30..I don't why I call him ''kid'') with this wheels, but not in the 12k weave. I have to say my thoughts are mixed. I loved the rim, stiffness and compliance but not so much the engagement of the hub nor the rim tape. Rear hub is based loosely on the new EXP Ratchet from DT Swiss and has 24t ring compared to a standard DT 240 that has a 36t. Also rim tape is almost useless (too light and fragile) and mounting Maxxis or Continental tires with a floor pump was a bit of a hassle so I had to swap it from Stan's yellow tape. Valves are really good but too short IMO. Wheels roll really good though. Total weight with stock tape and valves was 1,458g. 









Progress GP:LTD NEXO, probamos sus mejores ruedas para MTB


Las ruedas Progress GP:LTD NEXO traen una estética única con su llanta de acabado 12K y todas las características de sus probadas Progress GP:01 NEXO. Incluyendo su efectivo y suave buje Nexo Ratchet Z1




esmtb.com


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Fun fact, people that don't own axs having more issues with the batteries than people that actually using axs🙌


----------



## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

What is the reason none of the pros appear to use the polymer spokes? Too springy, not durable enough, difficult to maintain, component availability?


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Who is using them anyway?!


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

WR304 said:


> A full SRAM wireless MTB setup would be more than 4 batteries! There are 4 of the rechargeable Etap battery packs and then an additional 3 other batteries required also making 7 batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would hope they'd opt for a smaller version for the suspension, that's a lot of weight and will really limit the market.

I guess it's all moot, like Live Valve it'll all be too expensive for most people and that will limit the investment.

Maybe if it wasn't doing the auto open/close, but only remote open/close they could go smaller on the battery?


WR304 said:


> A full SRAM wireless MTB setup would be more than 4 batteries! There are 4 of the rechargeable Etap battery packs and then an additional 3 other batteries required also making 7 batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would hope they'd opt for a smaller version for the suspension, that's a lot of weight and will really limit the market. 

I guess it's all moot, like Live Valve it'll all be too expensive for most people and that will limit the investment.

Maybe if it wasn't doing the auto open/close, but only remote open/close they could go smaller on the battery?


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Cerpss said:


> What is the reason none of the pros appear to use the polymer spokes? Too springy, not durable enough, difficult to maintain, component availability?


Most likely Berd/Pi haven't invested in high level sponsorship.

All the reviews on YT etc are pretty glowing.

DangerHolm uses them, and the guys from WorldWide Cyclery were wailing on some pretty hard on a review which gave a pretty good impression.

I think they're still cost prohibitive, maybe even for Pro's.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I have 3 sets of Berds. The reliability & feel are both miles ahead of traditional spokes.

They feel slower however as you don't get as immediate of a surge forward when applying power.

I mentioned this to Berd and they told me that some racers have said the same thing, but the clock consistently shows the Berds to be faster.

Whatever, I like them and that's good enough for me.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Suns_PSD said:


> I have 3 sets of Berds. The reliability & feel are both miles ahead of traditional spokes.
> 
> They feel slower however as you don't get as immediate of a surge forward when applying power.
> 
> ...


How do you measure tension? If with the same spoke tension meter as steel, how do they compare?


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

mail_liam said:


> How do you measure tension? If with the same spoke tension meter as steel, how do they compare?


With a Park tensionometer, up to 15, no less than 12 per spoke. I built some Berd wheels myself, raced for 2 years, no issues other than periodic stretching that can make things interesting (whooah in a hard corner or drop) . Like all race equipment, it requires maintenance.

To stay on topic, I agree, Berd is a small shop, no money for sponsorship, but they're absolutely superior to steel spokes. You are seeing carbon fiber spokes and all in one carbon fiber wheels in the World Cups more often now.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

So people are asking for electronic lockout but they dont want another battery!


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Most likely Berd/Pi haven't invested in high level sponsorship.
> 
> All the reviews on YT etc are pretty glowing.
> 
> ...


yeah at $8.00 without nipples its going to have to provide some pretty measurable benefits over a Sapim CX-Ray or Dt AeroLite


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> With the Rock Shox Flight Attendant electronic suspension apparently it makes the same “vvvvt”, “vvvvt”, “vvvvt” motor noise as a SRAM AXS rear derailleur does when changing gear. Only because the electronic suspension is adjusting itself, opening and closing all the time that “vvvvt” noise is going on constantly from both the rear suspension and fork whilst riding.
> 
> That constant noise from the suspension has the potential to become really grating very quickly!


its no an issue when the bike is moving fast because there is a lot of other trail noise to drown out the motor vvvvt vvvvt


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Cerpss said:


> What is the reason none of the pros appear to use the polymer spokes? Too springy, not durable enough, difficult to maintain, component availability?


marketing is a big reason. Using spokes from a manufacturer that doesn't supply your wheels is not often allowed under sponsorship agreements. A guy like tom Pidcock will be able to get away with it till Pinarello and Shimano deliver WC std frame and wheels, then he's locked into his sponsorship agreement again.Smaller teams might try the Berd Wheels and Spokes but won't get as much coverage.
Berd seems like a small family run business so it is also likely they don't have the budget to pay a team to ride their products. So the only way into the WC is via discerning riders who are willing to evangelise the product for free because they believe in the concept and performance.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> I would hope they'd opt for a smaller version for the suspension, that's a lot of weight and will really limit the market.
> 
> I guess it's all moot, like Live Valve it'll all be too expensive for most people and that will limit the investment.
> 
> ...


The main reason the Rock Shox Flight Attendant add ons are so bulky is because they use the same SRAM Etap rechargeable battery form factor as the other AXS parts. That rectangular battery shape was originally intended to be fitted onto a rear derailleur, where the battery shape integrates cleanly, but it’s had to be shoe horned onto the suspension. It’s why the fork has that bit hanging off the top as the battery shape can’t fit inside the fork leg

A limiting factor with the current Rock Shox Flight Attendant is that it’s only compatible with certain frames, as the bulky fork add on can potentially swing and hit the down tube. It only launched on a few bikes (Canyon, YT and Specialized) and wasn’t available aftermarket either for that reason.

From a customer point of view Flight Attendant is very much “version 1” and is likely to be replaced sooner rather than later with newer (probably incompatible) parts. The Fox electronic suspension is a good example of how this goes. Fox have had ICD, IRD, Live Valve and then a newer revision of Live Valve in recent years. Good luck getting spares for the older obsolete versions!

From a World Cup XC point of view the electronic suspension and parts aren’t reliability risk free either. The high profile one so far in 2022 was at the Nove Mesto round where Tom Pidcock’s SR Suntour prototype electronic suspension locked itself out, and then stayed locked out! He was able to win anyway but it wasn’t ideal.

Another good example is when Nino Schurter was riding the then unreleased SRAM AXS electronic shifting as a prototype. It took me a while to find the picture again from 2018 but this is what happened when his electronic gears stopped working!


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Just two issues the last 10 years on prototype products and you blame electronics?😂


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Flight attendant will trickle down to SiD . The packaging will change no doubt but it’s correct to say it’s a first generation product and therefore it will evolve past compatibility with this first stab.
However SRAM does have a design concept around those AXS batteries so I suppose we will see improvements to the battery as well but keep the form factor similar.the alternative is a single larger battery as per Di2 and live valve. That’s much harder to package consistently. I have heard they will be releasing a multi charger soon to cater for up to 4 battery packs. 
I would still prefer the AXS concept over a single rechargeable battery for everything. If that dies you’re up the creek. Or maybe I’ll stick ti the simplicity of mechanical.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> Just two issues the last 10 years on prototype products and you blame electronics?😂


Prototypes are far more interesting.

The current retail SRAM AXS electronic parts are actually quite reliable. They’re nowhere near infallible however, as a quick browse of the many Google search results for “SRAM” +”AXS”+ “broken” will show. Any discussion of pros and cons has to recognise that and take it into consideration. The big crunch point with SRAM AXS is the two year ownership anniversary. That’s when the original warranty expires (it can vary by country) and you’re left at the mercy of SRAM’s goodwill as to whether a 2 year old broken AXS part is replaced or not.

My main point was really about how Rock Shox Flight Attendant is likely to be surpassed by a newer improved version sooner rather than later. Flight Attendant isn’t Rock Shox first electronic suspension system. There was a mention of the older Lapierre E:I Rock Shox electronic suspension in that Bikeperfect article I linked. It was specced on Lapierre bikes between 2014 and 2017 before being dropped. This thread about it sums up many of the potential pitfalls that can occur:









Lapierre / Rock Shox EI - any long term reviews?


Are there any long term users of the EI system here? I'm really keen to know how the system has held up to the abuse of mtbing.




www.mtbr.com





Pictured: 2014 Lapierre XR 929 with Rock Shox E:I electronic suspension


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

The distributors makes a big role. Here in Scandinavia, sram is really the best to make business with while fox is the shitiest company i have ever encountered.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Just an observation: It seems that a lot of amateurs still ride a wider tire in front and a narrower tire in the rear. I can't recall the last time I saw an World Cup XCO pro mountain biker do this. For one thing it increases the difference in tire pressure between front and rear, and secondly there's more weight on the rear, meaning that perhaps more volume on the rear would actually be more appropriate (see: motocross bikes).


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Motocross having a motor on the rear wheel (with enormous power) that's why. In bikes it makes more sense to have a wider on the front wheel or a tire with a better grip than the rear.
But i hate it also.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Is 2012 Old School?









La última 26" ganadora, la BH Ultimate campeona olímpica de Julie Bresset


La BH Ultimate con la que Julie Bresset ganó los JJOO de Londres 2012 ha pasado por nuestras manos. Nos ha servido para comprobar como han cambiado las bicis de XC en 10 años.




esmtb.com


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Seth testing out some Berd spokes. He's no XC racer of course but entertaining and a bit informative. 1kg lighter for his wheels!


Also, bringing up the DSD Runt thing as I've been trying to research that and the Vorsprung Luftkappe. Is the DSD likely to come back in stock or have they closed up shop? And do you all think it's worthwhile for a modern fork, or a solution searching for a problem (when it comes to the latest forks)?


----------



## TwincamRob (Sep 20, 2014)

Noticed Blevins either has his steerer taped up, AirTag stashed, or maybe some prototype steerer tube? Or maybe this is how the new Rockshox are and I just haven’t seen it yet?…


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Prevents muck buildup to shave off grams?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Looks like tape.


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## meschenbruch (Jan 15, 2017)

mail_liam said:


> ...
> 
> Also, bringing up the DSD Runt thing as I've been trying to research that and the Vorsprung Luftkappe. Is the DSD likely to come back in stock or have they closed up shop? And do you all think it's worthwhile for a modern fork, or a solution searching for a problem (when it comes to the latest forks)?


I can't comment on the availability of the runt (probably even harder to find it in NZ just to top it off) but I reckon it's well worth it. My caveat being it's been on my trail bike, though would love to have one on the xc rig.


----------



## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

Goran_injo said:


> Prevents muck buildup to shave off grams?


This. A lot of teams do it. Either tape or actually shoving foam into the bottom of the steerer tube. Trek was putting strips of tape on the bottom of the down tubes in muddy races. That way they could just be torn off taking all the mud with it. I'm sure there are some other hacks out there too.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I used a headshok steerer plug in the steerer of my 2.0


----------



## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

mail_liam said:


> Seth testing out some Berd spokes. He's no XC racer of course but entertaining and a bit informative. 1kg lighter for his wheels!
> 
> 
> Also, bringing up the DSD Runt thing as I've been trying to research that and the Vorsprung Luftkappe. Is the DSD likely to come back in stock or have they closed up shop? And do you all think it's worthwhile for a modern fork, or a solution searching for a problem (when it comes to the latest forks)?


 just received the Runt a few weeks ago. Shipping was fast (to Canada) and at that time they seemed to have most options in stock. Which fork do you need it for?


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Joe Handlebar said:


> This. A lot of teams do it. Either tape or actually shoving foam into the bottom of the steerer tube. Trek was putting strips of tape on the bottom of the down tubes in muddy races. That way they could just be torn off taking all the mud with it. I'm sure there are some other hacks out there too.


Lighter than the plug that comes with the EDC 👌. Makes sense.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

OldMike said:


> just received the Runt a few weeks ago. Shipping was fast (to Canada) and at that time they seemed to have most options in stock. Which fork do you need it for?


I have a 2020 Fox 34 Performance Elite (Scott Spark 910 so EVol - if that makes a difference??)


----------



## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

mail_liam said:


> I have a 2020 Fox 34 Performance Elite (Scott Spark 910 so EVol - if that makes a difference??)


Wow, Looks like all 34's are sold out. Just checked and l ordered mine May 3rd. Check back with Runt regularly as 'm sure there's more coming.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

No, and thank god. I shudder looking back on that. I believe this translated accurately:

"This is an example of how small changes in each new version of a bike end up being radical changes if we look at it over a long period of time"

That bike wouldn't be able to challenge for the top 10 under the best girls in the world 10 years later.



carlostruco said:


> Is 2012 Old School?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> Is 2012 Old School?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most definately! That bike really marked the end of the 26inch HT as a race bike. 26inch FS were raced and podiumed until 2014, but I don't believe anybody ever podiumed on a 26in HT after 2012.

Both of my wife's WC winning bikes are hanging in the basement. They are only 3-years apart but they ride widely different. The 2014 is just a flexier, steeper version of todays race bikes but the 2011 bike is twitchy beast that is always trying to kill you.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I still run that saddle on my road bike.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mail_liam said:


> Seth testing out some Berd spokes. He's no XC racer of course but entertaining and a bit informative. 1kg lighter for his wheels!
> 
> 
> Also, bringing up the DSD Runt thing as I've been trying to research that and the Vorsprung Luftkappe. Is the DSD likely to come back in stock or have they closed up shop? And do you all think it's worthwhile for a modern fork, or a solution searching for a problem (when it comes to the latest forks)?


I think I got the last 34 SC Runt a few weeks ago. It definitely does what it claims and adds a good amount of new dimension to spring tuning. I have friends ordering them for other forks and I don't think there are any plans to stop production, just the normal delays and nature of a business that makes relatively small production runs.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Seth testing out some Berd spokes. He's no XC racer of course but entertaining and a bit informative. 1kg lighter for his wheels!
> 
> 
> Also, bringing up the DSD Runt thing as I've been trying to research that and the Vorsprung Luftkappe. Is the DSD likely to come back in stock or have they closed up shop? And do you all think it's worthwhile for a modern fork, or a solution searching for a problem (when it comes to the latest forks)?


These are similar to the Berd spokes. I was going to post just the second video about the properties and testing of the spokes, which is the relevant part for spoke types, but the first video about making the spokes and building the wheels adds context so is worth watching first. 

We made our own Rope Spokes - Ali Clarkson





 
We used computers to see how good rope spokes really are - Ali Clarkson


----------



## us338386 (May 10, 2015)

A local rider here has had good luck with Berd spokes on fat and MTB for a few years. Definitely the lightest wheels. I think the potential drops for roadies as you miss the aero bladed spoke advantage needed for higher speed environments. (ie., CX-Ray)


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Well...this is certainly interesting!

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-arc8-evolve-fs-2022.html


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

smartyiak said:


> Well...this is certainly interesting!
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-arc8-evolve-fs-2022.html


I like the way there's only two sizes of the frame available.

I'm 6’ tall approx and would ride the medium size ARC8 Evolve frame with a 120mm travel fork (the shortest of the four possible reach options at 465mm) and a 50mm stem it looks like. That would get about the same fit as my current Specialized Epic Evo (Size Large). All the other options would be too long.

This isn't a bike for short riders...

(160cm is 5’ 3” tall)

_“Somewhat surprisingly, it is only available in sizes Medium and Large, accommodating riders from 160-190 cm tall. Jonas tells us they had originally planned to bring a small frame to market also, but found that riders as short as 160 cm felt the 465mm reach of the medium frame delivered a very comfortable fit. After consulting with Andreas Gösele, doctor of the Swiss Olympic team and a well known bike fitting expert, the ARC8 team concluded that a size small was simply not needed.” *Bikerumor 









ARC8 Evolve FS is a lightweight, progressive XC MTB with flex stays and slider suspension


The ARC8 Evolve FS puts 100-110mm of flex-stay slider suspension travel into lightweight carbon frame with progressive XC geometry




bikerumor.com




*_


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

smartyiak said:


> Well...this is certainly interesting!
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-arc8-evolve-fs-2022.html


Looks sexy, and fast. But dainty!!


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

That bike has really low stack. So, it's good for short rider as well.

In my case, instead of using a funky stem like 70mm long, -20 degree stem with additional 12mm downward offset built in at the bar clamp (fsa slk-drop), slammed on a taller stack bike.
On drawing board, I could actually use a more common 50mm -17 degree stem on that ARC8 for the similar bar height.
Shorter rider might still need drop stem though but lower stack certainly benefit short riders.


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

I am not convinced about the steep seat tube angle, I recently bought a Canyon Spectral 125 with a 76,5 seat tube angle and I have to have the seat as far back as possible and my knees still hurt after a couple of hours. The short travel bikes don't sink into the sag like the longer travel bikes so the seat tube does not really slacken when you sit on the bike. It is really comfortable on long, steep uphills, but I don't have a lot of those around here. It also makes the seated position very upright so not as easy to put the power down, not a position I would want for an xc race. Of course it depends on how tall you are as well. Luckily they don't make an xl of the Arc8 so I don't have to think about wanting it.


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Here's an interesting take on the 100/120 debate. I have an NS synonym RC. 100 F/R (a slightly modified FM936). My mate wants to swap his 34 SC for my 32sc (he's 60kg - am not!). You can snip the spacer in the rear shock and the same bike - for no weight gain - goes from 100/100 to 120/120. 

Same weight, slight decrease in reach (good, 500 is a bit too much), decrease in seat angle (good, 77 is too steep), higher front (bad). Would stay with remote lockout on both. 

No brainer or is something lost?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

joebusby said:


> Here's an interesting take on the 100/120 debate. I have an NS synonym RC. 100 F/R (a slightly modified FM936). My mate wants to swap his 34 SC for my 32sc (he's 60kg - am not!). You can snip the spacer in the rear shock and the same bike - for no weight gain - goes from 100/100 to 120/120.
> 
> Same weight, slight decrease in reach (good, 500 is a bit too much), decrease in seat angle (good, 77 is too steep), higher front (bad). Would stay with remote lockout on both.
> 
> No brainer or is something lost?


According to the geometry charts a NS Synonym RC with 100mm travel fork has a bottom bracket height of 319mm. That’s quite low:



https://nsbikes.com/synonym-rc-1,427,pl.html



If you remove the travel reducing spacer in the rear shock, changing it from 100mm rear travel to a longer 120mm rear travel, this does a few things. It means that the rear shock will have a longer stroke and be able to compress more than originally intended.

When the rear suspension is fully compressed, with the rear shock travel reducing spacer removed, the rear tyre will get closer to the back of the seat tube. Depending on the frame it could potentially see the rear tyre hitting the seat tube at full compression.

At full compression of the rear shock both the bottom bracket of the bike and the crank arms will be lower and closer to the ground also. Although fitting a 120mm fork raises the static bottom bracket height, when the bike is unweighted, if you land off a big drop, fully bottoming out both the fork and rear shock at the same time, the bottom bracket and cranks will be lower and closer to the ground with the travel reducing spacer in the rear shock removed than they would be with the travel reducing spacer in place. That could potentially cause clearance issues and pedal strikes.

You might find it’s all ok in practice but those are some of the possible issues you might run into.

*Edit:* There’s a NS Synonym TR model available with a 120mm rear travel option and 120mm fork. The 100mm travel bike uses a 165mm length x 37.5mm stroke rear shock and the 120mm travel bike uses a 165mm length x 42.5mm stroke rear shock, which is the same shock dimensions with a 5mm travel reducing spacer removed.

As NS sell a bike that matches exactly what you’re considering doing the clearance issues shouldn’t be a problem.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Skier78 said:


> I am not convinced about the steep seat tube angle, I recently bought a Canyon Spectral 125 with a 76,5 seat tube angle and I have to have the seat as far back as possible and my knees still hurt after a couple of hours. The short travel bikes don't sink into the sag like the longer travel bikes so the seat tube does not really slacken when you sit on the bike. It is really comfortable on long, steep uphills, but I don't have a lot of those around here. It also makes the seated position very upright so not as easy to put the power down, not a position I would want for an xc race. Of course it depends on how tall you are as well. Luckily they don't make an xl of the Arc8 so I don't have to think about wanting it.


A Canyon Spectral 125 frame uses a 30.9mm diameter seatpost.

If you haven’t got one already you can fit a 9 Point 8 Fall Line R dropper post to that frame in 30.9mm diameter which has the option of a 25mm rear offset seatpost head. That would let you get the saddle further back to save your knees.









Fall Line R Dropper Seatpost


Features: Black-Ti coated Titanium hardware. Anti-galling. State-of-the-art rotational anti-backlash design (Patent Pending). Light weight: from 322g post only! Independent adjustment of the seat angle and seat fore/aft position Micro-adjustable seat angle. Telescopic lock in push and pull (pick...




9point8.ca





In this link click on Description and there’s an animated gif showing the rearwards position that’s available.









Fall Line R OFFSET HEAD (Rear Only)


9point8 provides world-class dropper seatposts, built for users searching for performance and reliability in their bike components.




9point8.ca





.


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

WR304 said:


> A Canyon Spectral 125 frame uses a 30.9mm diameter seatpost.
> 
> If you haven’t got one already you can fit a 9 Point 8 Fall Line R dropper post to that frame in 30.9mm diameter which has the option of a 25mm rear offset seatpost head. That would let you get the saddle further back to save your knees.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I need a 200 mm dropper to get the right saddle height with the very low seatpost tube on the canyon. I will change to a different saddle with longer rails, I think that will be enough. Not really world cup tech, more a n=1 sample that steeper seat tube is not always better.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

joebusby said:


> Here's an interesting take on the 100/120 debate. I have an NS synonym RC. 100 F/R (a slightly modified FM936). My mate wants to swap his 34 SC for my 32sc (he's 60kg - am not!). You can snip the spacer in the rear shock and the same bike - for no weight gain - goes from 100/100 to 120/120.
> 
> Same weight, slight decrease in reach (good, 500 is a bit too much), decrease in seat angle (good, 77 is too steep), higher front (bad). Would stay with remote lockout on both.
> 
> No brainer or is something lost?


Depends on how extreme your climbs are, that high of a front end can be difficult to keep down on extreme stuff, tight uphill switchbacks, extreme steep grades, etc. This can be a rarely-encountered feature, or more common, depending on your course and competition. There's a reason why the pro XC race bikes are as low as possible on the front end, but this obviously decreases their ability to be ridden as trail bikes and for every-day riding. It may be that you don't encounter that kind of terrain much, so it's not a concern. Just noting this because there definitely are situations where it matters.


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

WR304 said:


> According to the geometry charts a NS Synonym RC with 100mm travel fork has a bottom bracket height of 319mm. That’s quite low:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah - I checked with NS that it's an identical frame / rocker, just no travel spacer. All you need to do is snip the spacer.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

joebusby said:


> Here's an interesting take on the 100/120 debate. I have an NS synonym RC. 100 F/R (a slightly modified FM936). My mate wants to swap his 34 SC for my 32sc (he's 60kg - am not!). You can snip the spacer in the rear shock and the same bike - for no weight gain - goes from 100/100 to 120/120.
> 
> Same weight, slight decrease in reach (good, 500 is a bit too much), decrease in seat angle (good, 77 is too steep), higher front (bad). Would stay with remote lockout on both.
> 
> No brainer or is something lost?


Are you running your bars as low as possible at the moment? i.e.downturned stem on the Headset?

If not, obviously there's room to compensate for (some of) the extra bar height. Even if you are, it can still be down with fancy downturned stems ala the short World Cup racers, that just costs more money than removing spacers from under the stem.

You don't actually mention your weight or riding, but my gut says it is in fact a "no brainer" based on the research of the posters above about the suspension/shock dimensions etc


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

mail_liam said:


> Are you running your bars as low as possible at the moment? i.e.downturned stem on the Headset?
> 
> If not, obviously there's room to compensate for (some of) the extra bar height. Even if you are, it can still be down with fancy downturned stems ala the short World Cup racers, that just costs more money than removing spacers from under the stem.
> 
> You don't actually mention your weight or riding, but my gut says it is in fact a "no brainer" based on the research of the posters above about the suspension/shock dimensions etc


XCO, typical course is 20k over 1hr with about 500m climbing. Power is 4.5 at 77ish kg. Stem has one 2.5mm but only 50mm due to absurd reach in the NS (should have got a medium but secondhand bargain too good to pass up). Currently weighs 10kg dead with pedals, dropper, 2.35s and 30mm rims. Coming between 1st and 10th in the series I race in regularly. Bike also used for the occasional long distance off-road trip - be it a shot at an fkt or a bit of Bikepacking.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

to clarify, as low as possible mean something like this (see attached image), right?
Canecreek Slamset headset, and a drop stem. 50mm is right at the shortest length for FSA SLK drop stem, or FSA NS drop stem. But my bike can only use 60mm or longer. Because the 50mm one rub the bike's headtube.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

joebusby said:


> XCO, typical course is 20k over 1hr with about 500m climbing. Power is 4.5 at 77ish kg. Stem has one 2.5mm but only 50mm due to absurd reach in the NS (should have got a medium but secondhand bargain too good to pass up). Currently weighs 10kg dead with pedals, dropper, 2.35s and 30mm rims. Coming between 1st and 10th in the series I race in regularly. Bike also used for the occasional long distance off-road trip - be it a shot at an fkt or a bit of Bikepacking.


I still think if the forks are equal condition and you're both happy with the deal it's a "no brainer".

There's definitely ways and means of getting the bars back to the original spot.

That's just my 2c based on how much I love my 120/120 bike. Admittedly, your area of riding might not have the same "chunk/tech" as someone else, but I'm around the same weight and definitely appreciate the additional surefootedness that comes with (I assume) the added stiffness of the 34.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Also, if you are using 15% sag on 100mm fork.
Try 20-24% sag on 120mm fork.
That'll also minimize the extra height when you are on the bike.
Use more of the extra travel for better ground tracking when things are slightly bumpy rather than extra headroom for bigger hits.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

smartyiak said:


> Well...this is certainly interesting!
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-arc8-evolve-fs-2022.html



Wow, Yeti really gets it. I love the way the newer Epic a couple years back and now the ARC break the mold essentially on some long-held safewords in frame geometry.

Not so sure I'm convinced that there's only two sizes needed, M and L, but it does speak truth to reality: a 480-500mm reach can be very XC for average-sized riders.

I find this quote especially delicious, trolls eat your hearts out:

"Both sizes are designed around a shorter range of stem lengths than more traditional XC bikes – between 35mm and 70mm"


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

And it still only manages a meagre top 30.
why the fixation on the reach? TT is still only 612mm which is orettt much in line with most medium size bikes . The steep west pushes the rider forward for a more centrEd position within that gargantuan 120cm wheelbase. The stability will come from the wheelbase and slightly lowered CoG.I’d still fit that bike with a 70 to 80mm stem just like my current bike.

wha floats my boat about the ARC8 evolve is the slider suspension. I designed a very very similar mechanism about 20years ago


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Brad said:


> wha floats my boat about the ARC8 evolve is the slider suspension. I designed a very very similar mechanism about 20years ago


Was it "fraught with shock failures?" 😁😁😁


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

chomxxo said:


> Wow, Yeti really gets it. I love the way the newer Epic a couple years back and now the ARC break the mold essentially on some long-held safewords in frame geometry.
> 
> Not so sure I'm convinced that there's only two sizes needed, M and L, but it does speak truth to reality: a 480-500mm reach can be very XC for average-sized riders.
> 
> ...


Excuse my ignorance, but what's the link to Yeti? Just the similarities to the Switch Link?


As for the bike itself. The weight is impressive. I don't want a HTA that slack for my XC bike. Honestly 67° seems about right to be honest.

Much like the new RM Element with its super slack HTA, it'd have it's area to excel, like in the mountains where you climb up a long fireroad and descend for 30-60min. I can't imagine it being all that enjoyable on technical single track climbing.


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## Tyrone Shoelaces (Nov 6, 2006)

chomxxo said:


> Wow, Yeti really gets it.


It's not a Yeti. (perhaps the ARC name threw you off)


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

The "ultra-slack" XC bikes is an interesting trend.

My own personal experience is to aggressively tackle steep descents you need geometry, suspension, and tires. If any one of those three is missing then you are picking your way down.

The Specifialized Epic the perfect example of this. You look at the geometry and think this bike should really be able to handle steep agressive descents but rear suspension isn't up to the task making the bike not particularly comfortable on the steeps.

All spring I have been riding a 140mm trail bike as my XC bike. With XC-tires it no better on the steeps than an XC bike. To make use of that extra suspension and slack angles I need grip.

I absolutely love riding XC bikes on blue trails. It is on the flowy intermediate trails that XC bikes are just a joy to ride. I find these aggressive XC bikes are a bit less fun on these trails. They are better on the steep black trails, but they are still under gunned XC bikes, with short travel and fragile low grip tires.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

That's a fair assessment.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

LMN said:


> The "ultra-slack" XC bikes is an interesting trend.
> 
> My own personal experience is to aggressively tackle steep descents you need geometry, suspension, and tires. If any one of those three is missing then you are picking your way down.
> 
> ...


Agree, but at least you have that option. I'm riding trails and features now with a 67° HTA and 120mm travel that I never, ever could have on the ~70°HTA bikes of a decade ago.

Admittedly, I put on my "trail" wheels with DHR's when I do the Grade 5/Black etc stuff


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

What's the main agility killer of these longer slacker head tube bike?
Is it weight distribution on front wheel? Or trail value?
These two require different cure.

If it's the weight distribution, meaning there's less weight on the front wheel so you washout easier and can't corner as sharp as fast. Then just fit grippier tire on? <- yeah, that cost some speed.

If it's the trail value, then why did we abandon 51mm fork offset for short travel bike?
Compare to 44mm offset, the front center is increased by 7mm and trail value is also reduced by 7mm (say 112 down to 105) to make the handling remain fast.
On enduro bike, I understand that people want to increase trail for stability using 63-64.5 deg HTA but don't want the front wheel to be way too far out in the front (which is hard to put enough weight on it), hence 44mm fork offset is created. It increase trail and pull front wheel back closer to the rider.
But on XC with 66-68 deg HTA, front wheel isn't that far out front. We want to prevent going over the bar (longer front center) that still feel agile (less trail value) isn't it?

Or my understanding is way off.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Hexsense said:


> What's the main agility killer of these longer slacker head tube bike?
> Is it weight distribution on front wheel? Or trail value?
> These two require different cure.
> 
> ...


I may be way off, but I think it's wheelbase and speed of turning/turning circle if you like.

That's my experience and from going from 71.5 to 67.2 HTA.

In theory I think the weight on the front wheel should be maintained. At least that's what I'm pretty sure is the purpose of going down at the front and steeper at the STA. You should be able to maintain the same body angles, but you will obviously have a lot more weight on your hands. I think it makes a lot of sense, to a point. 

I should demo one of these "extreme" XC bikes, but having ridden Enduro type rigs from past years with similar geo they were not manoeuvrable on switch backs etc to the degree I'd want to ride/race.

I think the geo is well dialled to the bike angles etc. I bet it's stupid good at bombing steep descents. I just think it's probably pretty limited in terms of appropriate market.

As LMN said, such a bike will make most common XC trails feel pretty boring. Only ST6 that I know of that is XC and Grade 5 combo


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> What's the main agility killer of these longer slacker head tube bike?
> Is it weight distribution on front wheel? Or trail value?
> These two require different cure.
> 
> ...



but you forget that the bike has to sell in the longer lower slacker environment ...
Then we have reviewers extolling the virtues or longer lower slacker while having massive ape factor that doesn't translate to the average XCO racer build. It may work for some but it certainly doesn't for me. Nevertheless you're fighting against a religious belief in LLS. You'll never convince people who don't believe that there are alternatives


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

on the agility killers...
Both trail and Wheelbase work together to generate the agility. Wheelbase determines the arcs the wheels prescribe on the ground. The longer the front centre the bigger the turning circle for a given steering input. You can manipulate the trail to tune the feel but the turning circles are purely a function of wheelbase. HTA will determine how much the front end will push into a corner at various speeds. For every speed range there is a WB/HTA/TRAIL combo that will work ideally. Then one has to also consider the rear centre. Shorten this , shorten the WB but then climbing stability will be affected.
Longer bikes definitely push more into the corner and require more effort to hold the same line as a shorter bike. I experimented with this when comparing the Ghost Lektor FS against my Scalpel. Sure I could attack straighter runs with more confidence but I had to brake earlier, lean harder on the bike and accelerate harder out of tight corners.
So for me a happy medium (size) needs to be somewhere between the 2018 scalpel and 2022 Lektor. Moving the saddle forward helped with the turn rotation but its still harder to work it around the course.


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## joecx (Aug 17, 2013)

WR304 said:


> There are some pictures of an updated Rock Shox Twistlock remote lockout lever here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I ended up putting a wrap of bar tape on mine to make it a bit larger diameter to give me a little more leverage.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mail_liam said:


> Agree, but at least you have that option. I'm riding trails and features now with a 67° HTA and 120mm travel that I never, ever could have on the ~70°HTA bikes of a decade ago.
> 
> Admittedly, I put on my "trail" wheels with DHR's when I do the Grade 5/Black etc stuff


With a wide bar, short stem and dropper post on 29er wheels, I’d put money on that you could.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

As they say about flow trails, if it's boring, you're not going fast enough.  And that's the real test isn't it? Does it feel "pro" but is it faster? My bet is that faster wins over feeling "pro" but so be it, Julie Bresset's 10 year old bike is up for grabs for the purists.

I'll admit that the style of descending and cornering in XCO vs DH is different. You'll see Nino actually leaning forward on steep descents.






That doesn't necessarily mean that the front wheel-weighted cornering and descending is fastest, but it gets you through more stably with a shorter, more weight-centered bike.

There are precious few tight switchbacks in World Cup XCO or single tracks, even, seems like there's lots of room to maneuver and pass. 

As for more amateur style tight, twisty trails, with lower elevation, I'd just imagine we put it to a timed test. In my experience, low-speed cornering is at low speed and not a critical difference between a slacker bike that makes the sacrifice in overall performance anywhere near worth it.

Ultimately a stem is a useless appendage and we're headed towards that with XCO, right on schedule.





mail_liam said:


> I may be way off, but I think it's wheelbase and speed of turning/turning circle if you like.
> 
> That's my experience and from going from 71.5 to 67.2 HTA.
> 
> ...


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

chomxxo said:


> As they say about flow trails, if it's boring, you're not going fast enough.  And that's the real test isn't it? Does it feel "pro" but is it faster? My bet is that faster wins over feeling "pro" but so be it, Julie Bresset's 10 year old bike is up for grabs for the purists.
> 
> I'll admit that the style of descending and corning in XCO vs DH is different. You'll see Nino actually leaning forward on steep descents.
> 
> ...


The lower speeds of a climb would mean the differences in general should be a higher proportion of the racing time/difference. 

Most the XC courses have sections of tight climbing. I can think of Albstadt, Leogang, Les Gets, etc that all have switch back climbs. It may not actually matter, and I am all for people riding whatever they like. I think that the sweet spot is what Norco discovered a few years ago/Scott with the recent updates etc. That's from the bikes I've ridden.

I don't know enough about trail etc etc, but I think short stem wide bars is a good thing, I'd think longer reach but maintain around 67°HTA and you're really talking. (Caveat being that might need a different fork offset or something but that's beyond me)


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Ultimately a stem is a useless appendage and we're headed towards that with XCO, right on schedule.


Gee Atherton? experimented with a 0mm length stem back in the day and didn't like it.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Once you get to a 35mm stem or shorter the bikes become very twitchy and front end traction really suffers. 
40-50mm for wide bars on an AM bike. 
50-60mm on narrower bars for DC.
60-70mm on even narrower bars for XC.
Since wide bars aid stability, while short stems take it away, plus the turning arc of a long stem is reduced by narrow bars, they all end up feeling about the same. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I think it is pretty cool the range of XC bikes that we can buy. The fact that two widely different bikes like the Spark and Supercaliber have sucess at the highest level is awesome.

As a consumer we have so much choice. Like ripping twisty blue trails, buy a sharp handling more traditional geometry bike. If your riding has long climbs with steep fast descents get one of the new longer, lower slacker bikes. Want to do it all, pick your compromise.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

what are some compromises?


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## dreicha (Aug 16, 2005)

ccm said:


> what are some compromises?


for everyday riding the trail bike with weight of xc bike


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This bike check is for the 2022 Ellsworth Truth that Chelsey Magness rode for the 24 hour solo World Championships at Finale Ligure in Italy.









Pro Bike Check: Chelsey Magness wins 24 HR Solo World Champs on 2022 Ellsworth Truth


Chesley Magness gives us the low-down on her 2022 Ellsworth Truth XC Bike that she rode to victory at the 2022 24 Hr Worlds in Italy




bikerumor.com





It’s quite a detailed article about her entire race and food strategy as well.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

WR304 said:


> This bike check is for the 2022 Ellsworth Truth that Chelsey Magness rode for the 24 hour solo World Championships at Finale Ligure in Italy.
> 
> It’s quite a detailed article about her entire race and food strategy as well.


She did a great job with the article highlighting her sponsors. The part about the bike though... it's like T-E pasted his 1990s marketing copy verbatim. ICT ftw!


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

quite possibly the fugliest bike ever built


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Brad said:


> quite possibly the fugliest bike ever built


Have to agree there. Super small sizes often look funny, but that's pretty bad with the frame design. I only skimmed the article but didn't see any geo angles. It looks like a steep HTA.

Pretty big claims with regards the efficiency and activeness.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

A bike set-up pet peeve of mine is a ton of spacers above the stem. One, or two small ones at most. Any more it looks like no effort went into your bike build.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

This is the equipment thread, but a question re: apparel. 

What was the temperature during the XCC? 

Haley Batten was, to my knowledge, the only woman in a long sleeve today. I’m guessing she’d go short sleeve if she could do it over again. On a “heavy” course like that, and what appeared to be a low average speed, she likely overheated. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

16 C


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

I saw 63F degrees with 75% humidity on the Red Bull broadcast.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

LMN said:


> A bike set-up pet peeve of mine is a ton of spacers above the stem. One, or two small ones at most. Any more it looks like no effort went into your bike build.


Or you are a cheap bastard like I am and switch frames more often than forks.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More riders, like Titouan Carod and Loana Lecomte, showed up yesterday for the XCC using SRAM's prototype power meter. Now it's not only Nino and Kate. I think I also saw Vlad with it...also Lars in a Instragram post.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

RS VR6 said:


> I saw 63F degrees with 75% humidity on the Red Bull broadcast.


That makes sense. No one besides Haley was wearing a long sleeve skin suit

I’d fall over dead racing in a long sleeve at that temperature.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Going to be interesting to see what the tyre choices are for tomorrow. Looks like they've been training on a real mix.

It was cool to see Flueckiger finally use the Ray in the front (it's such a good tyre). I couldn't tell exactly what Kate had, but maybe Forekaster and Crossmax?

Sounds like it will be _mostly_ dry by the men's race. Obviously the forest will still have slick parts though.


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## Skarhead (Mar 15, 2018)

mail_liam said:


> Going to be interesting to see what the tyre choices are for tomorrow. Looks like they've been training on a real mix.
> 
> It was cool to see Flueckiger finally use the Ray in the front (it's such a good tyre). I couldn't tell exactly what Kate had, but maybe Forekaster and Crossmax?
> 
> Sounds like it will be _mostly_ dry by the men's race. Obviously the forest will still have slick parts though.


Scott-Sram team have prototype maxxis mud tires (maxxis severe). They were with them on friday short track, sunday xco Nino was with Aspens and Kate front mud tire, rear Aspen.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Skarhead said:


> Scott-Sram team have prototype maxxis mud tires (maxxis severe). They were with them on friday short track, sunday xco Nino was with Aspens and Kate front mud tire, rear Aspen.


I've seen that tire up close and personal and it look a lot like a Conti X-King but with more spacing between knobs.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

New Scott line is up for us(dealers) but under embargo! But i will spoiler something, there is some new brake company on some scales😂


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

More information on the updated Canyon Lux that some team riders have been on for a while now:


https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-2022-canyon-lux-world-cup-is-still-an-unapologetically-sharp-edged-xc-race-bike.html


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Skier78 said:


> More information on the updated Canyon Lux that some team riders have been on for a while now:
> 
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-2022-canyon-lux-world-cup-is-still-an-unapologetically-sharp-edged-xc-race-bike.html


That is one light frame. Some pretty cool features on it. I really would like to see some sort of knock block as standard for all bikes.

I am curious if the routing through the stem will become the norm. It looks super clean but I have heard reports that it makes the steering pretty stiff. Not so much with AXS, but with brake, shifter, (and dropper?) it is really tight.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

LMN said:


> That is one light frame. Some pretty cool features on it. I really would like to see some sort of knock block as standard for all bikes.
> 
> I am curious if the routing through the stem will become the norm. It looks super clean but I have heard reports that it makes the steering pretty stiff. Not so much with AXS, but with brake, shifter, (and dropper?) it is really tight.


Not that light actually, 1535g without PAINT???, rear shock and hardware, pinkbike says add 435g to that, that's 1970g


Specialized S-Works Epic EVO – 1,659g
Orbea Oiz OMX – 1,740g
_Scott Spark RC HMX SL (OLD) – 1,799g_
Specialized S-Works Epic – 1,869g
*Scott Spark HMX SL (NEW) – 1,870g*
Cannondale Scalpel Hi-Mod – 1,910g
Trek Supercaliber – 1,933g


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Raikzz said:


> Not that light actually, 1535g without PAINT???, rear shock and hardware, pinkbike says add 435g to that, that's 1970g
> 
> 
> Specialized S-Works Epic EVO – 1,659g
> ...


Arc8 Evolve

Bare frame 1240 grams
W/ hardware and shock 1775 grams

Not sure on sizes but they only come in M & L and their M is as big as other brands L or even XL.

That's 525-675 grams lighter than my L Spur frame, or around 1.4 #s.

Too bad they effed up the chainstay length or I'd order one.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> Arc8 Evolve
> 
> Bare frame 1240 grams
> W/ hardware and shock 1775 grams
> ...


What is the chainstay error in your opinion?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I find long front centers, and somewhat slack front ends positively wonderful even in this application.

But combined with short chainstays they turn like absolute crap. They understeer horribly.

The M Evolve (remember it's an oversized Medium) should be around a 439mm CS length and the L needs to be around 446mm or so for this bike to handle in a balanced manner.

430 mm CS length on a 507mm reach is just.... just no.

Hard to imagine designers still do this in 2022.

Short chainstays worked fine when bikes has 435mm reach & 71' hta. Those days are, thankfully, gone.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

so basically make an XCO bike longer and even harder to turn.....right


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

cycloholic said:


> New Scott line is up for us(dealers) but under embargo! But i will spoiler something, there is some new brake company on some scales😂


Shock-in-a-box?

hard pass.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Brad said:


> so basically make an XCO bike longer and even harder to turn.....right


Yep. There is always a razor's edge between stability and cornering and it's not as obvious as the average consumer thinks it is from geometry charts. In motocross, the KTM boys were dominating supercross the last few years. This year, they made their bike more slack to enhance stability. So far, they are getting blown out of the water in both Supercross and motocross with largely the same riders, including the defending champ.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Chain-stay length isn't about stability, it's about weight balance.

KTM's issues with the new bike are a bit more nuanced than just a slacker front end. In fact the issues are about 'chassis balance' according to Dungey which is relevant to this conversation.

It's all a system is really the point, and I don't have a perfect formula or anything. But long & slack front ends with short chain-stays are terrible for turning but quite good for riding perfectly straight and at times climbing. Opposite of the theory that 'long chain-stays are only good for stability'


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Brad said:


> so basically make an XCO bike longer and even harder to turn.....right


Do you actually believe that adding about 1/3" makes your bike that is over 6' long from front tip to rear tip 'harder to turn'?

Proper balance with tires that grip evenly has more advantages than improper balance but saving a 1/3" in overall length.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

-1/3" longer wheelbase is hard to notice.
-Substantially increased trail value is easy to feel.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Fortunately chain stay lengths doesn't effect trail. 
Although 1/3" in CS length is not noticeable from a manuerability standpoint, it's very noticeable from a tire traction balance stand point (edit) if your the type of rider that can hold your bike at the limit of traction through turns for periods of time. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Suns_PSD said:


> KTM's issues with the new bike are a bit more nuanced than just a slacker front end. In fact the issues are about 'chassis balance' according to Dungey which is relevant to this conversation.


True, but the slacker front end affects the balance and KTM has some of the smartest folks in the industry and have wasted an entire season trying to figure it out. It's so bad that Webb didn't win a single race this year after winning seven last year. Plessinger also had a huge drop off in performance. That's the problem. You change one thing, and everything else is affected and sometimes, there is no way to compensate. 

My point isn't to say you are wrong or even to discuss your points specifically. I think I am just pushing back on the "slacker is better" mantra that has overtaken the mountain bike world. Thankfully, in mountain biking, you can make geometry errors and not be punished nearly as harshly as in motocross because a rider with a big engine can make a bad bike still look good.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Do you actually believe that adding about 1/3" makes your bike that is over 6' long from front tip to rear tip 'harder to turn'?
> 
> Proper balance with tires that grip evenly has more advantages than improper balance but saving a 1/3" in overall length.


In isolation 9mm isn’t going to break the bank.
But you’re referring to the extension within the context of a longer front centre which = longer WB. Centred weight is not one dimensional


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Now you are talking my language (Motocross)!

But really I never advocated for a more slack hta on the Arc8, but longer CS length when being combined with such a long front center which the bike already has and is a result of Reach, Stack, hta & fork A2C.

If that bike had a 69' hta, 100mm fork & 455 reach or something, 430 CS length would have been totally appropriate. But being long in the front and short in the back really sucks.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Now you are talking my language (Motocross)!
> 
> But really I never advocated for a more slack hta on the Arc8, but longer CS length when being combined with such a long front center which the bike already has and is a result of Reach, Stack, hta & fork A2C.
> 
> If that bike had a 69' hta, 100mm fork & 455 reach or something, 430 CS length would have been totally appropriate. But being long in the front and short in the back really sucks.


We’ll that depends on where the CG is . The steep seat tube is going to push that further forward. The short chain stays suck because they will limit traction on steep climbs.
CS length should also be frame size appropriate


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> If that bike had a 69' hta, 100mm fork & 455 reach or something, 430 CS length would have been totally appropriate. But being long in the front and short in the back really sucks.


Hard to make a call like that straight off off a geometry chart. It really depends on the rider proportions and style.

I have a very forward riding style. This works quite well with a long reach and short chain stays. Both of those things put a bit more weight on the rear wheel of the bike, balancing it for me. Someone who rides a bit further backward might not get the same effect.

On a biycle we have a floating centre of mass, this makes it hard to say absolutes about geometry. Even if we were on the same height, we may have completely different opinions about the "balance" of a bike. Never mind the fact that a bike that is perfectly balanced on a 10% downhill is probably very front end heavy on a 30% downhill.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

LMN said:


> That is one light frame. Some pretty cool features on it. I really would like to see some sort of knock block as standard for all bikes.
> 
> I am curious if the routing through the stem will become the norm. It looks super clean but I have heard reports that it makes the steering pretty stiff. Not so much with AXS, but with brake, shifter, (and dropper?) it is really tight.


There could be four separate cables routed through the upper headset bearing on a Canyon Lux CF - rear brake, dropper post, rear derailleur and the rear shock remote lockout. What could affect it is how far up that tube in tube internal routing goes. If that internal routing exits high up close to the headset bearing it will restrict the movement of the cables inside the frame when the handlebars are turned left and right making it feel stiff. It's notable that none of the retail models come with a dropper post. They all have rigid seat posts instead, even the top end model.

The other issue with all those cables running through the upper headset bearing is where they will end up relative to the fork steerer inside the frame. If its all too tight the cables can end up rubbing against the fork steerer, potentially wearing it away over a number of years.

I thought it was quite interesting that it has those Ceramicspeed SLT solid lube bearings specced as standard for the rear suspension pivots and also the headset bearings. 










There are other manufacturers making the same thing, eg: SKF MTRX solid oil bearings. This mtbr thread about the SKF MTRX solid oil bearings is worth a look:









SKF MTRX bearings


Which cranks do you have and how much axial pre-load did you put on the bearings? A deep groove radial bearing like the 6806 doesn't handle axial load well, so you'll want to keep pre-load lower (if it's adjustable - ie - Shimano). Another consideration is how much wattage are you actually...




www.mtbr.com





With the Canyon LUX CF pricing there are some UK prices given here. £6,649 GBP (which includes 20% UK VAT and import duty fees as it's mail order from Germany in the EU) for the Canyon Lux World Cup CFR Team with Fox factory suspension, DT Swiss XRC1200 wheels and most of an XTR M9100 groupset (except for Ethirteen cranks) sounds remarkably good value for a new bike in 2022. That does exclude shipping though which is an additional £49.99 GBP and they're out of stock so the true availability may be a long wait.

There's also a table listing out where they saved weight over the previous version in this Bikeradar link (which isn't in the Pinkbike link):









New Canyon Lux World Cup saves 127g on outgoing model and gets integrated front end


The Lux World Cup joins the Lux Trail to round out Canyon's cross-country range




www.bikeradar.com





Canyon GB shipping costs link for what is and isn't included:






How do I calculate my total order cost in the United Kingdom?


Calculate the total order cost in the UK which includes VAT, customs fees and disbursement fees.




www.canyon.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There are some pictures from the 2022 Leogang World Cup round here:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-leogang-xc-world-cup-2022.html



If you look at this picture of Loana Lecomte riding the new Canyon Lux CF World cup (cable routing mentioned above) she's using a SRAM AXS wireless dropper post:










This picture is Anne Terpstra from the Ghost team at the 2022 Leogang World Cup. Go back several pages in this thread and there's some discussion about the pros and cons of the Ghost team riding Bike Ahead Composites Biturbo wheels. For this particular race it looks like she was using spoked wheels:

*Edit*: I got this wrong. I just went and watched the Red Bull replay and Anne Terpstra was using the Bike Ahead wheels at Leogang 2022.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Brad said:


> We’ll that depends on where the CG is . The steep seat tube is going to push that further forward. The short chain stays suck because they will limit traction on steep climbs.
> CS length should also be frame size appropriate


IME short chain-stays dramatically increase traction on climbs. Which makes sense because you have a higher % of your weight on the rear tire. I mean take it to it's logical conclusion/ extreme, shift the rider weight directly on top of the rear tire. Assuming you don't flip backwards, I think we can all agree the tire you are directly over is going to have great traction.

To me, the great climbing traction is actually the one and only advantage of short chain-stays. Of course the same lack of weight on the front end leads to a wandering and light front end that doesn't want to go where you want it to go.

But we definitely agree that CS length should be frame size appropriate, even if different people are looking for different things.

No one would bolt a CR80 swingarm on to a CRF450 after all, but that's what we do on MTBs.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Low shutter speed bi-turbo's.


WR304 said:


> This picture is Anne Terpstra from the Ghost team at the 2022 Leogang World Cup. Go back several pages in this thread and there's some discussion about the pros and cons of the Ghost team riding Bike Ahead Composites Biturbo wheels. For this particular race it looks like she was using spoked wheels:
> 
> View attachment 1987619


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

LMN said:


> Hard to make a call like that straight off off a geometry chart. It really depends on the rider proportions and style.
> 
> I have a very forward riding style. This works quite well with a long reach and short chain stays. Both of those things put a bit more weight on the rear wheel of the bike, balancing it for me. Someone who rides a bit further backward might not get the same effect.
> 
> On a biycle we have a floating centre of mass, this makes it hard to say absolutes about geometry. Even if we were on the same height, we may have completely different opinions about the "balance" of a bike. Never mind the fact that a bike that is perfectly balanced on a 10% downhill is probably very front end heavy on a 30% downhill.


No doubt that different body proportions lead to a different center of gravity. A typical female with more of their weight in their hips and a small upper body benefits even more from long chain-stays and a shorter front end. If your personal XC race crouch places a lot more weight on the front end of your bike (do your wrists & hands get a heck of a work out from supporting your body weight on the bars?) then your need for a longer rear end is reduced.

But I'm trying to speak in averages. Average male athletic physique in a typical fit with your back at about a 45 degree angle and modern geos.

As far as different opinions about the balance of the bike, well I can't assume to know how you feel on the bike. However proper weighting/ balance really is a thing in racing cars, racing motorcycles, and yes racing bikes. You either like to throw your vehicle in to a turn and have both tires slide evenly, you compensate in weird ways, you run crazy mismatched tires, or you just go slower.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Low shutter speed bi-turbo's.


I got that wrong. Anne Terpstra was on the Bike Ahead wheels at Leogang 2022.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

LMN said:


> That is one light frame. Some pretty cool features on it. I really would like to see some sort of knock block as standard for all bikes.
> 
> I am curious if the routing through the stem will become the norm. It looks super clean but I have heard reports that it makes the steering pretty stiff. Not so much with AXS, but with brake, shifter, (and dropper?) it is really tight.


I realised after I'd posted it that something to consider is that the Canyon Lux CF World Cup uses the Ceramicspeed SLT solid lube bearings for the headset as well as the suspension pivots. Apparently they're quite stiff to turn so on that particular bike the choice of headset bearings could have an impact on the steering. Like having a headset that's too tight is noticeable.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Shock-in-a-box?
> 
> hard pass.


Sorry didnt get it 😇


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> As far as different opinions about the balance of the bike, well I can't assume to know how you feel on the bike. However proper weighting/ balance really is a thing in racing cars, racing motorcycles, and yes racing bikes. You either like to throw your vehicle in to a turn and have both tires slide evenly, you compensate in weird ways, you run crazy mismatched tires, or you just go slower.


I think both of us would agree when a bike is horribly out of balance. But we might not agree what is a correctly balanced bike. And I said earlier a bike that is well balanced on a 10% downhill is not balanced on a 30% downhill.

That is why you can't really make inferences from geometry charts. And lets face it we are talking about really small differences here. As long as you riding the bike on the terrain it was designed for you can usually balance the bike with suspension tweaks, and some cockpit adjustments. Or as simple as adjusting where your centre of mass is.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> IME short chain-stays dramatically increase traction on climbs. Which makes sense because you have a higher % of your weight on the rear tire. I mean take it to it's logical conclusion/ extreme, shift the rider weight directly on top of the rear tire. Assuming you don't flip backwards, I think we can all agree the tire you are directly over is going to have great traction.
> 
> To me, the great climbing traction is actually the one and only advantage of short chain-stays. Of course the same lack of weight on the front end leads to a wandering and light front end that doesn't want to go where you want it to go.
> 
> ...


IMEnthe best climbing bikes are those with lowered anti squat (to a point) and chain stay length isn’t a factor. Having weight directly on the back wheel to get maximum grip is a fallacy perpetuated by bike industry marketeers. The centre of mass should be ahead of the rear wheel contact patch for best traction because it’s the moment of the mass about that contact point that produces the tractive effort. 
mine of the best bikes to ride up climbs was the Giant Anthem X29 2013-2017 model. It’s longer rear centre produced fantastic grip. I find short CS bikes to be very nervous with traction. 
the CS length also has to play nicely with suspension kinematics and this has a far greater bearing on rear wheel traction than the 10mm variance between geometry chart listings. The big factors that we can feel are front centre, trail and wheelbase


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Brad said:


> mine of the best bikes to ride up climbs was the Giant Anthem X29 2013-2017 model. It’s longer rear centre produced fantastic grip. I find short CS bikes to be very nervous with traction.


My Anthem (465mm) has a 20mm longer CS than the Unit (445mm) and it's far harder to balance the climbing traction on the Anthem.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

This is some weird sh*t...









Test Lee Cougan Rampage Innova y sus 30 mm de recorrido trasero


La Lee Cougan Rampage Innova no es una rígida, pero tampoco una doble. Es una softail con 30 mm de recorrido trasero real y un sistema de "suspensión" único. Además de una feeling racing 100%




esmtb.com


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Brad said:


> IMEnthe best climbing bikes are those with lowered anti squat (to a point) and chain stay length isn’t a factor. Having weight directly on the back wheel to get maximum grip is a fallacy perpetuated by bike industry marketeers. The centre of mass should be ahead of the rear wheel contact patch for best traction because it’s the moment of the mass about that contact point that produces the tractive effort.
> mine of the best bikes to ride up climbs was the Giant Anthem X29 2013-2017 model. It’s longer rear centre produced fantastic grip. I find short CS bikes to be very nervous with traction.
> the CS length also has to play nicely with suspension kinematics and this has a far greater bearing on rear wheel traction than the 10mm variance between geometry chart listings. The big factors that we can feel are front centre, trail and wheelbase


Of course low AS improves traction and compliance and therefore climbing. It also gets more weight on the rear tire. For example, the super high AS on Yeti's is really annoying to me and requires much grippier rear tires to equal the climbing traction of like a HL suspension. In spite of the Yeti short CS length (on larger sizes) they still have poor climbing traction as a direct result of 170% AS in some gears.

Just looked up the geo on a 2017 Anthem 29er, good god 462mm CS length! Not sure what to make of your traction experiences except to say the bike had a 110mm stem, a 73' sta, and I have no idea for rear suspension performance.

The point is that the statement about short chainstays having great climbing traction is obviously with everything else being equal (for instance like on my '18 Foxy 27.5 SL with adjustable cs length). There are many other factors that could have contributed to the great rear traction you experienced.


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## Unbrockenchain (Aug 21, 2015)

Interesting discussion on chainstay length as I have been playing around with my Tallboy rear flip chip. So reach is 468 and the short vs long chainstay is 430 vs 440 respectively. Today in long I noticed the rear got hung up a couple of times on chunky uphill. Not sure if just tired or the 10 mm increase had an affect on it. But I do feel very centered on downhills. May try short again on same climb


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## Cardy George (Dec 3, 2020)

carlostruco said:


> This is some weird sh*t...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like it. Similar concept to the Trek Procaliber. Just enough to take the sting out of the trails. Would really suit where I ride.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Cardy George said:


> I like it. Similar concept to the Trek Procaliber. Just enough to take the sting out of the trails. Would really suit where I ride.


An Iso-Speed Decoupler on steroids.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Unbrockenchain said:


> Interesting discussion on chainstay length as I have been playing around with my Tallboy rear flip chip. So reach is 468 and the short vs long chainstay is 430 vs 440 respectively. Today in long I noticed the rear got hung up a couple of times on chunky uphill. Not sure if just tired or the 10 mm increase had an affect on it. But I do feel very centered on downhills. May try short again on same climb


What do you mean by hung up? Wheel slipped out or it felt harder to get over big square edges?


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## Unbrockenchain (Aug 21, 2015)

Brad said:


> What do you mean by hung up? Wheel slipped out or it felt harder to get over big square edges?


Harder to get over square edges


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Unbrockenchain said:


> Harder to get over square edges


You may need to drop the rear shock pressure slightly, give the suspension a bit of small bump compliance. Generally the reverse should be true since you have a longer lever acting on the shock.
Remember your bike uses high anti squat so you’re getting a slightly harsher feel as chain tension is acting through a slightly longer lever


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I have more issues with the horst-link bikes hanging up on square edged stuff, they don't seem to move up and away nearly as easy as the DW link bikes IME. It all depends on how much anti-squat is designed in and the curve shape, but the square-edged bump compliance is not great IME with most horst link bikes I've owned over the years. Sensitivity is fine with a coil spring, rate is fine with the proper rate, but gobbling up square edged bumps seems to take a higher effective/virtual pivot to work. In this respect, a lot of the parallel-link type bikes are a good middle-ground IME between the lower pivot and higher pivot designs. The stiffer nature of a "parallel link" setup might also be contributing, since horst-link with a pivot in between main and rear axle is not conductive to rear end stiffness and will induce some level of binding on anything not directly aligned. 

The bikes with flatter AS curves around 100% don't tend to get bogged down in the rough stuff uphill, you kind of get into a feedback loop with the low AS bikes (especially when it's a steep sloping curve with low AS mid-travel), because you encounter bumps, suspension compresses to where there is a lot less than 100% AS, you pedal harder, your pedaling compresses suspension even more, to where there is even less AS, kind of a feedback loop. It always feels to me like you are using more travel here while climbing on a certain sized bump than the bike would use if you were coasting downhill and encountered the same bump. The fact that you are pedaling and compressing the suspension with the squat is probably why. That gives you the awesome "digging in" feeling...but also lifts the front end, which is contrary to good climbing. Yes, massive traction, but now you've slowed your forward speed while the front end has lifted up. Our low-AS horst link bikes from decades ago raised the front end like the space shuttle taking off on any steep climb. Another difference between DW and some of the other parallel link bikes, the negative travel is designed to suck down into the ground and "grab" better, so that same feel may not be replicated in other ~100% AS bikes. But the bike won't lift the front end and will just let you lock in a line easier. Of course, on real low-travel bikes with lockout, most of these issues are pretty minor and not super significant, still, I prefer the better response and pedaling of the flat AS curve bikes. I can just keep cranking in the rough stuff and the bike goes forward...rather than bogs down.

The modern horst-link frames minimize this a bit, flattening out the "curve", but they can't replicate the high AS negative travel and then flatten out like the DW and they tend to still fall off a lot more mid-travel with a steeper slope...much better than previous if designed right, but still a good deal of ones that are not. This same slope is also possible without a horst link, arguably a better setup because it will be stiffer due to the lack of that chainstay pivot, which is why we see more flex-stay designs these days IMO. Then the DW link bikes and most of the parallel link bikes and yeti anti-squat "falls off" after about 2/3rds of the travel, but the horst link and single pivots are locked into a linear slope gradient, so they can't "fall off" the same way. Not a huge point, but if you flatten the horst link to try and replicate some of the pedaling traits of the "100% flat curve to around 2/3rds travel" parallel link bikes, it won't drop off as much as those parallel link bikes and you are going to get more deep-stroke harshness from that increased AS. 

Again though, these are going to be pretty minor points and either design executed well with a good rate and shock damping tune to match is probably going to be the better bike. That's more of an issue these days IME, crap shock tunes and suspension designers not being able to bring the shock and leverage curve together well is a lot more of an issue than HL, DW, VPP or whatever for me.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Brad said:


> Remember your bike uses high anti squat so you’re getting a slightly harsher feel as chain tension is acting through a slightly longer lever


I found the rear derailleur clutch smoothness to effect rear suspension smoothness way more than I initially expected on bike with high chain growth (and anti-squat).
Shimano RD have stronger clutch than Sram RD from new. Then once it need service, it gets even stickier while Sram RD clutch worn weaker.
A switch from Shimano RD with old rusty sticky clutch to Sram RD have been remarkable on how smooth the suspension feel. So much so I prefer Sram RD on XC/light trail type bike over Shimano just to have that plusher rear suspension from weaker smoother clutch.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> This is some weird sh*t...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There was another Lee Cougan bike announced earlier this year and in this thread as well. At the time I had no idea who Lee Cougan bikes were. This Bikerumor article about the Lee Cougan Rampage Innova softtail explains it.

Lee Cougan bikes are the offroad focused sister company of Basso road bikes. They started off as a reseller of generic open mould frames but have started making their own designs of frame this year.









Lee Cougan Rampage Innova reshapes XC rear suspension with short-travel, oil-damped softail


Rear suspension travel without a conventional "shock"? The Lee Cougan Rampage Innova uses micro dampers and a carbon spring instead.




bikerumor.com





The lee Cougan Rampage Innova softail is claimed to have 30mm of rear travel (at the rear wheel so the flexy shock bit won't move as much) but what I'm wondering about is underneath where the leaf spring attaches to the seat tube of the bike. It appears to be bolted on with 3 aluminium allen bolts. As this is carbon on carbon into the seat tube those three bolts might just have an aluminium insert or even a rivnut to fasten into underneath. The priority is weight saving so it's not going to be much. Every time the rear triangle flexes it will be stressing those three aluminium allen bolts, trying to work them loose or pull them out of the frame. Over time that area could be a weak point that fails.










In the Bikerumor article there's also a bit about leg clearance. The carbon seatstay flares out wide high up by the top tube. This picture from the Bikerumor article is a little exaggerated (the left shoe is almost unclipping from the pedal so not exactly as riding) but it shows where the seatstay can hit the riders calf.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> I found the rear derailleur clutch smoothness to effect rear suspension smoothness way more than I initially expected on bike with high chain growth (and anti-squat).
> Shimano RD have stronger clutch than Sram RD from new. Then once it need service, it gets even stickier while Sram RD clutch worn weaker.
> A switch from Shimano RD with old rusty sticky clutch to Sram RD have been remarkable on how smooth the suspension feel. So much so I prefer Sram RD on XC/light trail type bike over Shimano just to have that plusher rear suspension from weaker smoother clutch.


Or adjust the Shimano clutch?


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

NordieBoy said:


> Or adjust the Shimano clutch?


Mine need clutch replacement. Not adjustment.
It adjusted almost all the way out that it only put some pressure on the clutch when lever is 4/5 way on. But it still have so much stiction both way (cage move forward and backward). That's just the rusty clutch from leaked clutch housing seal. Add more Shimano white grease helped for a ride. But then it's gone sticky again.
New clutch solved this. But unless I improve the clutch housing seal as well. Water will gets in through hole at the clutch on/off lever arm and slowly cause the clutch to rust and sticky again some months later.

I'm open to suggestion on waterproofing the (XT) clutch housing. Especially at the on/off lever arm.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Best solution is a SRAM Eagle RD


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Hexsense said:


> Mine need clutch replacement. Not adjustment.
> It adjusted almost all the way out that it only put some pressure on the clutch when lever is 4/5 way on. But it still have so much stiction both way (cage move forward and backward). That's just the rusty clutch from leaked clutch housing seal. Add more Shimano white grease helped for a ride. But then it's gone sticky again.
> New clutch solved this. But unless I improve the clutch housing seal as well. Water will gets in through hole at the clutch on/off lever arm and slowly cause the clutch to rust and sticky again some months later.
> 
> I'm open to suggestion on waterproofing the (XT) clutch housing. Especially at the on/off lever arm.


I just use a good water resistant grease. It isn't what is recommended but the clutch still works and most importantly it lasts. I also occasionally drip some oil in there through the adjustment hole.

All things that are not recommended but I don't have problems.


----------



## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

Hexsense said:


> Mine need clutch replacement. Not adjustment.
> It adjusted almost all the way out that it only put some pressure on the clutch when lever is 4/5 way on. But it still have so much stiction both way (cage move forward and backward). That's just the rusty clutch from leaked clutch housing seal. Add more Shimano white grease helped for a ride. But then it's gone sticky again.
> New clutch solved this. But unless I improve the clutch housing seal as well. Water will gets in through hole at the clutch on/off lever arm and slowly cause the clutch to rust and sticky again some months later.
> 
> I'm open to suggestion on waterproofing the (XT) clutch housing. Especially at the on/off lever arm.


The XT seems more susceptible to this. The XT pivots get sloppy sooner too.

I've got two bikes with similar millage/use. The one with an XTR derailleur is crisp and smooth. The other with XT is trashed and needs replacing.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

For some premium braking performance Sinter have launched their new Sinter Elite brake pads.









Limited Edition brake pads w/ gold springs? Sinter Elite pads cost more than some complete brakes!


The new Sinter Elite Brake Pads come with 24ct gold springs and pin in a luxury wooden box for a unique break from the common brake pad.




bikerumor.com






*Retail:* Sinter Elite: €169.95, Sinter Elite Custom: €189.95 (custom includes box personalization)

The titanium backed pads come with a 24 carat gold plated spring and pin, set in a luxury wooden box that can be customized for additional personalization.😂


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Wtf


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

WR304 said:


> For some premium braking performance Sinter have launched their new Sinter Elite brake pads.


I applaud the bold marketing ploy here. Betting that a ton of people who have never previously heard of Sinter now know the company name and a good number have probably visited the website to see what the company is about and what other products they have. All for the cost of the 10 minutes of work to create and distribute a simple press release, then let viral marketing do its magic. They don't have to sell a single one of these Elite brake pad packages, nor do they probably have any expectations of doing so. Nicely done Sinter.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

WR304 said:


> There are some pictures of an updated Rock Shox Twistlock remote lockout lever here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The new Rock Shox Twistloc remote has been officially released now. It’s confirmed that there is both a 2 position version (open - locked) and also a 3 position version (open - middle - locked).









New RockShox TwistLoc remote suspension lockout adds 2 or 3-positions, lower price in Gen 2


RockShox's next-gen TwistLoc suspension remote is here with 2-position On/Off or 3-position Open/Threshold/Locked GripShift lockouts...




bikerumor.com





.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

It was announced a few days ago that Mondelez (a giant food company that makes products including Oreo Cookies) is purchasing Clif Bar for $2.9 billion USD 









Mondelez International to acquire Clif Bar & Co.


Acquisition will give Mondelez a bar business with more than $1 billion in sales.




www.foodbusinessnews.net






“Mondelez International, Inc. is acquiring Clif Bar & Co., Emeryville, Calif., for $2.9 billion. The acquisition includes the Clif, Luna and Clif Kid brands as well as manufacturing facilities in Twin Falls, Idaho, and Indianapolis.
Once the acquisition is complete, Mondelez International plans to incorporate its Perfect Snacks and Grenade nutrition business with Clif Bar and will form a business unit with more than $1 billion in sales.

“This transaction further advances our ambition to lead the future of snacking by winning in chocolate, biscuits and baked snacks as we continue to scale our high-growth snack bar business,” said Dirk Van de Put, chairman and chief executive officer. “As a leader and innovator in well-being and sustainable snacking in the US, Clif Bar & Co. embodies our purpose to ‘empower people to snack right’ and we look forward to advancing this important work with Clif’s committed colleagues in the years ahead.”

Clif bar did quite a bit of sponsorship with various MTB teams over the years so the takeover could potentially have implications there. Whether that means extra money into Clif bar to grow the brand that goes out into sponsorship or just more expensive products for customers remains to be seen.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Circlip said:


> I applaud the bold marketing ploy here. Betting that a ton of people who have never previously heard of Sinter now know the company name and a good number have probably visited the website to see what the company is about and what other products they have. All for the cost of the 10 minutes of work to create and distribute a simple press release, then let viral marketing do its magic. They don't have to sell a single one of these Elite brake pad packages, nor do they probably have any expectations of doing so. Nicely done Sinter.


The price does include 2 pairs of brake pads, enough for both front and rear! 

Q: “Why are you walking your bike down this descent?”

A: “I have to make the brake pads last as long as possible.”


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

WR304 said:


> It was announced a few days ago that Mondelez (a giant food company that makes products including Oreo Cookies) is purchasing Clif Bar for $2.9 billion USD
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My wife still has a cliff bar sponsorship. I am curious if this means that the cliff goodie packages will also include Toberlone bars and Oreo Cookies.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

LMN said:


> My wife still has a cliff bar sponsorship. I am curious if this means that the cliff goodie packages will also include Toberlone bars and Oreo Cookies.


I don’t know how it will work in practice but it sounds like Clif Bar will be combined with their other sports orientated brands. Rather than Oreo cookies you could end up with a years supply of Grenade nutrition Killa Cola pre - workout instead…

“*A hard hitting pre-workout devastator designed to make every workout an energy fuelled assault.*” 









50 Calibre Killa Cola 20 Servings


.50 Calibre is the ultimate pre workout devastator, designed to take your session to the next level. This hard-hitting supplement contains Citrulline Malate, along with beta alanine, caffeine and creatine to increase energy, strength and endurance levels. .50 Calibre will help to reduce...




www.grenade.com


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

WR304 said:


> I don’t know how it will work in practice but it sounds like Clif Bar will be combined with their other sports orientated brands. Rather than Oreo cookies you could end up with a years supply of Grenade nutrition Killa Cola pre - workout instead…
> 
> “*A hard hitting pre-workout devastator designed to make every workout an energy fuelled assault.*”
> 
> ...


Great, now we have Assault Food.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Great, now we have Assault Food.


Well, I feel about 50 times safer now.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

WR304 said:


> It was announced a few days ago that Mondelez (a giant food company that makes products including Oreo Cookies) is purchasing Clif Bar for $2.9 billion USD
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hard to imagine 2.9 billion, for a company when combined with oreos will reach sales of nearly 1 billion. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> The new Rock Shox Twistloc remote has been officially released now. It’s confirmed that there is both a 2 position version (open - locked) and also a 3 position version (open - middle - locked).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


better still, its a basically a tweaked left hand gripshift as I suspected. One can probably modify one if you still have a triple front shifter at home.
I hope this means the 2023 model SID's will have a 3 position damper option, especially the 120mm travel option


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> The price does include 2 pairs of brake pads, enough for both front and rear!
> 
> Q: “Why are you walking your bike down this descent?”
> 
> A: “I have to make the brake pads last as long as possible.”


so perfectly position for the Wall Street crowd then and won't be out of place on their $20,000-00 EPICS


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Brad said:


> better still, its a basically a tweaked left hand gripshift as I suspected. One can probably modify one if you still have a triple front shifter at home.
> I hope this means the 2023 model SID's will have a 3 position damper option, especially the 120mm travel option


I presume you're mostly tongue in cheek here, but because I have a curious mind and it'd be a lot cheaper to find an old grip shift ... Would this work the same, but you'd have to "twist" it back to open? I wonder what the cable pull of an old front shifter is/was...


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

That would need to be determined with a sample unit. I don’t have one anylonger but I’ll make a point of finding one


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Looking more at the pictures and description of the new TwistLoc. It looks like a super awkward fit with Shimano brakes. It'll be a bit of a shame if they have made it incompatible. Somewhat understandable, but a bit short sighted and would rule it out for me.

Hopefully we see some pictures of it with Shimano brakes soon. I'm picking you _could_ aim the cable straight down, but that might not be all that tidy and may still not leave enough space for a dropper remote.


----------



## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

LMN said:


> That is one light frame. Some pretty cool features on it. I really would like to see some sort of knock block as standard for all bikes.
> 
> I am curious if the routing through the stem will become the norm. It looks super clean but I have heard reports that it makes the steering pretty stiff. Not so much with AXS, but with brake, shifter, (and dropper?) it is really tight.


I have the knock block on my 22 Canyon Exceed SLX 9 Euro version and it already saved my top tube in a crash. As for the cables through the headset I have not noticed any tight feeling in steering or binding if any kind. Love this bike and the geometry in particular. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

mail_liam said:


> Looking more at the pictures and description of the new TwistLoc. It looks like a super awkward fit with Shimano brakes. It'll be a bit of a shame if they have made it incompatible. Somewhat understandable, but a bit short sighted and would rule it out for me.
> 
> Hopefully we see some pictures of it with Shimano brakes soon. I'm picking you _could_ aim the cable straight down, but that might not be all that tidy and may still not leave enough space for a dropper remote.


I kinda think Sram is going to continue an all out assault on Shimano where ever it can. Once they acquired Hammerhead, they killed it's ability to communicate with Di2 via a firmware update pretty quick. I mean...I get it, they are two competing companies. No idea if they would intentionally design this to not work specifically with Shimano brakes though. With that said...I wonder if it will work with the Deluxe NUDE shock for Scott bikes. I think the original Twistlock was 10mm and the new one is 7.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Joe Handlebar said:


> I kinda think Sram is going to continue an all out assault on Shimano where ever it can. Once they acquired Hammerhead, they killed it's ability to communicate with Di2 via a firmware update pretty quick. I mean...I get it, they are two competing companies. No idea if they would intentionally design this to not work specifically with Shimano brakes though. With that said...I wonder if it will work with the Deluxe NUDE shock for Scott bikes. I think the original Twistlock was 10mm and the new one is 7.


I've been ogling the pictures some more. I think that it will work with Shimano brakes ok. It's just how easily the dropper will integrate with running the cables just below the bar. I think the ideal is a normal thumb style dropper remote, maybe best mounted to the brake (i-spec whatever it is now). The Yep Joystick I think would be difficult.

I think the 7mm should work with the Scott suspension. I messaged Brad Copeland a while back about running the 2-pos TwistLoc on my 3-pos Scott suspension (Fox). He said it could work, but to maybe add a bit of slack to account for the difference. That makes me _think_ 7mm must be about right. Surely these are two standard cable pull dimensions??? Hopefully... But surely??? LOL


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Joe Handlebar said:


> I kinda think Sram is going to continue an all out assault on Shimano where ever it can. Once they acquired Hammerhead, they killed it's ability to communicate with Di2 via a firmware update pretty quick. I mean...I get it, they are two competing companies.


Eh, get the fact straight.
1) It's Shimano that revoke the private key and force Hammerhead to remove the feature.








Shimano Forces Hammerhead to Remove All Di2 Related Functionality From Karoo


Effective next Thursday, Hammerhead will remove all Di2 functionality from the Hammerhead Karoo series, via firmware update. This is at the request/demand of Shimano, who according to Hammerhead, now sees them as a competitor. This means all Di2-related functionality including




www.dcrainmaker.com





2) Sram compatibility for Shimano stuff have been excellent. I have a Shimano Di2 road bike. I sync the data from my Garmin to Sram AXS platform.
Sram analyze my Di2 gear usage stats in 4 tabs and show it to me on the AXS website. No kidding. It's their website for Sram AXS, yet they also crunch the Di2 usage data for me.
Now, why would they full fledge support Di2 on Sram AXS website but remove Shimano features on Hammerhead bike computer? It doesn't make any sense at all, right?
Clearly, it's not their decision. It's Shimano that force them to remove feature that involve their IP (key provided for Private ANT communication with Shimano EW-WU111 and etc.).


----------



## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

Hexsense said:


> Eh, get the fact straight.
> 1) It's Shimano that revoke the private key and force Hammerhead to remove the feature.
> 
> 
> ...


Oh damn....I did get that backwards! lol...thanks.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Well, this is business. If you sell yourself to a direct, and strongest competitor, you can expect lack of cooperation that would benefit that company.

It is really not about standards. 

Biggest note I have on this is that some end users are more concerned about keeping their head unit showing their gear and battery status, then functionality of the parts. 

If you need a headunit to show in which gear you are, you may be doing something wrong.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Goran_injo said:


> If you need a headunit to show in which gear you are, you may be doing something wrong.


That feature is extremely useful before I reach a stop light.
Saw red light ahead, I can shift down to big ring + 2nd top cog where I accelerate fastest from a complete stop reliably without looking down to my cassette and count by looking at gear indicator.
Without gear indicator, I tend to shift to big ring+ top cog first (to find the hard stop end of cassette). Then back off one into the gear I really intend to accelerate from a complete stop with.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Not going to argue on this, it has a tendency to get awfully personal very soon.

Back in analogue world, gear indicators were present only initially as a nice touch, and then they dissolved to be found on cheapest shifters.

Even shimano 12sp stuff for mtb got rid of it after 11sp, probably because the most popular end user mod was removing the indicator out of the way.

Anyhow, hammerhead is no longer hammerhead, it is SRAM.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

At the end of the day someone bought a produce with features and now one of those reasons to purchase has been forcibly removed. Annoyance is a perfectly valid response. These people feel cheated whether you agree with their reasoning around why a feature is important or not.
So many people trying to tell others how to behave ….? Seems like a bit of a disease st the moment


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Yes, but it is not Shimano's fault.

They didn't buy a shimano head unit, but a hammerhead one. Hammerhead advertized the integration.

Hammerhead should have contracted this with Shimano differently to ensure sustainability, or, as simple as a solution, not sell themselves to an almost single competitor in a duopoly and expect bussiness as usual.

My possibly insultive comment was solely on prioritization. Users ditching shimano because of a bicycle computer. Sure, you can do this, but I reserve the right to say it is for me, nonsense, since this is a forum. Doesn't mean I am right.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Perhaps back to actual equipment - Dt swiss D 232 dropper....any reliability issues seen?


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Goran_injo said:


> Back in analogue world, gear indicators were present only initially as a nice touch, and then they dissolved to be found on cheapest shifters.
> 
> Even shimano 12sp stuff for mtb got rid of it after 11sp, probably because the most popular end user mod was removing the indicator out of the way.


I agree that gear indicator should be gone in analog world. It only get minor benefit with major complication.

However, Showing current gear usage is only the minor benefit of connecting Di2 to bike computer. Bigger part of the benefits are:
1) Post ride analysis.
Like power meter where knowing your current power output isn't very useful but post ride analysis is invaluable. Gear usage stats too. With gear usage information+ cadence +power +heart rate +terrain elevation all time stamped on bike computer. Simple questions like "Do I spin out of gears, and how often?", "Is my climbing gear just right or I should have one more gear", "Am I spending most time on mid part of the cassette or I better off with the next bigger/smaller chainring size?", "Is my shifting behavior sub-optimal?" are all easy to answer with Di2 data recorded on head unit and sync to Sram AXS website. Di2 won't record that for you. Bike computer record it. Sram AXS website or other third party software analyze it.

2) Bike computer control using 3rd button on Shifter.
Shimano Di2 road shifter have 3 buttons each side. 2 on the lever blade and 1 at the top of the hood. People usually set that 3rd button to change page on bike computer. Pressing a button on top of the shifter reduce time you spend with hand off the hood to press a button on bike computer.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Goran_injo said:


> Yes, but it is not Shimano's fault.
> 
> Hammerhead advertized the integration.


Other way is also true:
Potential buyer go to Shimano di2 website to see if it is compatible with their existing bike computer. They see that the Hammerhead is on the compatible list. They buy Di2 bike. See, Shimano also advertized the integration.











Goran_injo said:


> My possibly insultive comment was solely on prioritization. Users ditching shimano because of a bicycle computer. Sure, you can do this, but I reserve the right to say it is for me, nonsense, since this is a forum. Doesn't mean I am right.


I respect this part. We need more different opinions. Rather than molding everyone to think the same.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

It looks like new Specialized Evade 3 and Specialized Prevail 3 helmets are being released at the Tour de France in a week or so time.

An early product page link:









prevail 3 evade 3 tt5


S-Works Prevail 3 Cooler Heads Prevail The S-Works Prevail 3 is the best ventilated helmet we’ve ever made. The internal AirCage reinvents impact force management, enables massive vents, and contributed to a 5-Star Virginia Tech® Helmet Rating™ SHOP NOW S-Works Evade 3 The Fastest Gets Cooler...




specialized.com.tw





These two pictures are the Specialized Evade 3



















This picture is a Specialized Prevail 3:


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Im so amazed that noone of the scott sellers leaked any info or pictures of 2023 bikes! Its like 20 days now that they have upload them to the sellers only website!


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

cycloholic said:


> Im so amazed that noone of the scott sellers leaked any info or pictures of 2023 bikes! Its like 20 days now that they have upload them to the sellers only website!


Is it just colour changes?


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

I think i cant say!😇


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

mail_liam said:


> Is it just colour changes?


They've gone from black, to slightly darker black

(Archer reference)


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm still out here searching for the Gen 2 SRAM TwistLoc to be available in online stores. It's on the SRAM website but nowhere else except that BikeRumour article from earlier.

Has given me lots of time to read reviews and forum posts about the gen 1 though. Seems very love it or hate it. I think the new one seems pretty promising. Maybe the twist return is actually less useful than a button. Seems more reliable though. I hope it's not quite as bulky as it looks in the pictures.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

The new 2023 Scott range is fitted with the new SRAM hardware that is still embargoed hence the lack of images but some are getting itchy …
Soon soon Lenzerheide isn’t far away


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Brad said:


> The new 2023 Scott range is fitted with the new SRAM hardware that is still embargoed hence the lack of images but some are getting itchy …
> Soon soon Lenzerheide isn’t far away


Hardware meaning suspension? Is electronic wizardry considered "hardware"?


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Brad said:


> The new 2023 Scott range is fitted with the new SRAM hardware that is still embargoed hence the lack of images but some are getting itchy …
> Soon soon Lenzerheide isn’t far away


Which lack of images? This is what exactly im saying, They are online on scotts dealers page(under embargo) but still nobody has leaked them!

ps. Interesting things for brakes on scale(s)
ps2. Dont buy a 2022 foil!


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Foil pictures are leaked already,


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Finally 😂


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Still no Spark sightings/SRAM embargoed stuff? 

Wondering if it's a suspension update considering they've just redone the lineup for the medium and long travel stuff.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Curious if the official 2023 AXS Eagle groups will have that new UDH mounted rear derailleur, or just the powermeter chainring. The spy shot rear wheel showed a different cassette design too I think. They certainly are due to update the AXS/Eagle stuff. It's been untouched now for a few years. Sram needs to buy HT pedals outright and get in the mtb pedal game Look, or whatever they bought are of little consequence in the mtb xc race game. Seems many, many use the HT pedals from my time at Snowshoe 2 years ago.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

ShortTravelMag said:


> Curious if the official 2023 AXS Eagle groups will have that new UDH mounted rear derailleur, or just the powermeter chainring. The spy shot rear wheel showed a different cassette design too I think. They certainly are due to update the AXS/Eagle stuff. It's been untouched now for a few years. Sram needs to buy HT pedals outright and get in the mtb pedal game Look, or whatever they bought are of little consequence in the mtb xc race game. Seems many, many use the HT pedals from my time at Snowshoe 2 years ago.


I've looked at HT pedals a few times. They look really, really good, and have good reviews. It's just really hard to go away from the known reliability of the Shimano SPD.

I spoke to someone in the know about the TwistLoc. Apparently not due until October into shops. I'm hoping a lot sooner, and I am not convinced that's what is being hidden (given it's on Ghost bikes, Scott have the TwinLoc, and it's already on SRAM website).


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

I hear you on HT. I've been only SPD since the very first set came out, so 30 years. No reason to switch. But at Snowshoe, I walked the pits and really studied all the bikes, and I was shocked how few SPD pedals were out there. Figure no sram sponsored bikes, so more than 1/2 gone instantly, and of the rest, most really were HT pedals. Full shimano bikes of course had them. Sram needs to go pedals/shoes to do it right in my opinion. Buy HT and Lake, as I see zero Lake shoes on world cup racers.


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## Cardy George (Dec 3, 2020)

SRAM just recently bought Time









Time Pedals - SRAM


SRAM is proud to announce the acquisition of the entire range of road and mountain pedals, cleats, and all related patents of TIME Sport from Rossignol Group.




www.sram.com





So long as they do what they did with Rockshox and let Time do their thing, it should be ok.

I've been on the same pair of ATACs for 25 years. 'Shimano' reliability AND zero mud issues.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

SRAM owns TIME . Production was moved to Portugal and stock is arriving in stores now. 
there’s some more new stuff on the Mtb side. They launched new rear dampers already but nothing new on the SiD side so expect Charger 3.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Does anyone know if the guts of XX1, XO1 and GX grip shifters are the same/different? Are there _any_ world cup racers running mechanical SRAM these days?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

The new Specialized helmets have been officially launched now: 









Specialized updates S-Works helmet quiver; New Evade 3, Prevail 3 & TT5 make Tour de France debut!


Specialized teams are ready for Le Tour, starting with the Time Trial, teams will dip into their new quiver of three new S-Works helmets.




bikerumor.com





For the 2022 Tour de France prologue time trial the riders were also wearing a head covering underneath:










In theory you could do that with any helmet for extra speed…


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Does anyone know if the guts of XX1, XO1 and GX grip shifters are the same/different? Are there _any_ world cup racers running mechanical SRAM these days?


The grip shifts are exactly the same across the 3 models


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

deleted double post


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Cardy George said:


> SRAM just recently bought Time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Within those 25 years, shimano has changed to a design that clears mud much better. For me, it comes down much more to preference, knees, ergonomics, etc. More float isn't necessarily better, as it can keep you locked in the pedals, which can put more force on your knees when trying to get out...or more float can be better on your knees while you are in so you don't force a position while locked. Just depends on the person.


----------



## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

trmn8er said:


> I have the knock block on my 22 Canyon Exceed SLX 9 Euro version and it already saved my top tube in a crash. As for the cables through the headset I have not noticed any tight feeling in steering or binding if any kind. Love this bike and the geometry in particular.


I’d like to fit something like this to my bike—had to go with a riser bar to keep the shifter from gouging out the top tube.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

I had a look at the new Specialized Evade 3 and Prevail 3 today. Although it has got bigger vents in the front than the Evade 2 the entire top and side shell of the Evade 3 is now entirely closed off. The rear exhaust vents are smaller as well. It looks like it will be hot hot hot climbing at low speeds. The Evade 2 was bad for heat buildup inside at low speed climbing and this one looks even worse. The channeling inside pulls air in through the front, across the head and then out of the rear exhaust vents but that requires the rider to be travelling at speed. The slower you go the less ventilation and cooling there will be in a helmet like this.

For some reason the Evade 3 now has a massive S-Works logo printed on the inside of the helmet too, where it’s hidden when wearing, and the magnetic buckle (the best bit of the old helmet) is now a standard plastic buckle again. 

That’s the extent of any review as I’m not planning on buying one…

The Prevail 3 didn’t look too bad. There’s a lot of open space across the top of the helmet for ventilation and the back is tidier than the bare polystyrene of the previous Prevail 2 helmet.


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Wonder what the aero of the prevail is like?


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Heard from SRAM. Gen 2 TwistLoc isn't due in stores until the end of the year.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

4/9/23 is the date on swedish distributor 😂


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bicis de los pro: Scott Spark RC World Cup de Sergio Mantecón


Esta es la Scott Spark RC que está usando Sergio Mantecón como integrante del Scott Cala Bandida




esmtb.com


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

La Giant Anthem Advanced Pro 29 del


Giant ha customizado la Anthem Advanced Pro 29 de Stephan Davoust con los colores de la bandera estadounidense




www.brujulabike.com


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-isla-shorts-juliana-wilder.html


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

10.2kg for a fox 32 size small frame - that's mad


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Islabikes should be launching a higj end mtb range and sponsor Isla.


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

On another note - what are the lightest cranksets that fit a bb86/92 pressfit shell?

I can't see much past the xx1 dub SL (without going stupid expensive - the xtr one is like 150g heavier in 12sp).


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Cardy George said:


> SRAM just recently bought Time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FYI...I have a pair of 20+ year-old Time ATACs on my singlespeed, and pair of new Time ATAC XC8s on my Proclaiber. Same cleats for both pedals.


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

joebusby said:


> On another note - what are the lightest cranksets that fit a bb86/92 pressfit shell?
> 
> I can't see much past the xx1 dub SL (without going stupid expensive - the xtr one is like 150g heavier in 12sp).


 I found the same thing, but I didn't do a lot of digging.


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

The dreaded RaceFace Next G5 might be lighter, might not, I forget. I have a pair on my fatbike and they've been flawless this time. But those XX1 Dub SL are light and so easy to find. And while not cheap, are cheaper than Ti or some exotics. The rotor carbons aren't lighter as far as I remember. I think that's a good bet just going with the xx1


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Cannondale Hollowgram SiSL is about as light as they get but, the BB needed to make it work is going to need to be replaced every 3 months....


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Jenny running a Conti prototype at the front on today's XCC


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Didn't see anything revolutionary on the Sparks. Kate's new kit and bike look good, but I couldn't see anything stand out different.


----------



## preda_0 (Feb 18, 2012)

carlostruco said:


> Jenny running a Conti prototype at the front on today's XCC


Do you have close photos or something similar?


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Pidcock runs prototype a year or so now! They say it's same pattern but wider and with new compound.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

carlostruco said:


> Jenny running a Conti prototype at the front on today's XCC


It looked like it was a Cross King tread pattern. You see her on that grippy tire and right next to her is Keller with the minimal Thunderburt tread pattern on the front.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Nothing new visible on the Scott’s


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Stonerider said:


> It looked like it was a Cross King tread pattern. You see her on that grippy tire and right next to her is Keller with the minimal Thunderburt tread pattern on the front.


It looks like she rides xking also on the rear! Better safe than sorry!


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

New Aspen tread pattern is looking pretty good, picking up the stipple pattern from Thunder Burts to roll faster. 









Brad Copeland on Instagram: "A closer look 🕵🏻‍♂️ 🔬 🔭 at this head-turner. Enjoy 🍭 @scottmtbracing @bikeonscott #scottcontessa #fastisfun | 🎬: @brujulabike"


Brad Copeland shared a post on Instagram: "A closer look 🕵🏻‍♂️ 🔬 🔭 at this head-turner. Enjoy 🍭 @scottmtbracing @bikeonscott #scottcontessa #fastisfun | 🎬: @brujulabike". Follow their account to see 1256 posts.




www.instagram.com


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## AndrewHardtail (Nov 2, 2021)

Amused to hear Rob Warner say during the men’s race today that bikes with less than 150-180mm of travel are “uncomfortable to ride”


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

AndrewHardtail said:


> Amused to hear Rob Warner say during the men’s race today that bikes with less than 150-180mm of travel are “uncomfortable to ride”


Think I agree with Rob.
Doesn't mean I don't enjoy my 120mm bike, but it beats the crap out of me whereas the 150mm bike feels like butter. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

joebusby said:


> On another note - what are the lightest cranksets that fit a bb86/92 pressfit shell?
> 
> I can't see much past the xx1 dub SL (without going stupid expensive - the xtr one is like 150g heavier in 12sp).


Maybe Praxis carbon LYFT?

Weight 454g+/- (175 +32T) | Q-Factor 172mm



https://praxiscycles.com/product/lyft/


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

AndrewHardtail said:


> Amused to hear Rob Warner say during the men’s race today that bikes with less than 150-180mm of travel are “uncomfortable to ride”


And he only rides e-bikes these days.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

AndrewHardtail said:


> Amused to hear Rob Warner say during the men’s race today that bikes with less than 150-180mm of travel are “uncomfortable to ride”


Checks out.


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

westin said:


> Maybe Praxis carbon LYFT?
> 
> Weight 454g+/- (175 +32T) | Q-Factor 172mm
> 
> ...


30mm BB into a pf92 frameset isn't exactly a match made in heaven =]


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

AndrewHardtail said:


> Amused to hear Rob Warner say during the men’s race today that bikes with less than 150-180mm of travel are “uncomfortable to ride”


Coming from a DH background because XCO required less beer drinking , I’m not surprised lol


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

joebusby said:


> 30mm BB into a pf92 frameset isn't exactly a match made in heaven =]


Oops, sorry.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More bikes...









La BH Lynx Race EVO Carbon de David Valero para ganar su primera Copa del Mundo XCO


Analizamos al detalle la BH Lynx Race EVO Carbon con la que David Valero ha ganado la Copa del Mundo XCO de Snowshoe




www.brujulabike.com













La BH Lynx Race EVO Carbon de David Valero para ganar su primera Copa del Mundo XCO


Analizamos al detalle la BH Lynx Race EVO Carbon con la que David Valero ha ganado la Copa del Mundo XCO de Snowshoe




www.brujulabike.com













Al detalle la Canyon Lux World Cup CFR LTD 2023 de Loana Lecomte


Revisamos al detalle la Canyon LUX World Cup CFR LTD 2023 con la que Loana Lecomte lleva compitiendo desde principios de temporada.




www.brujulabike.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Shimano are finally releasing an updated 12 speed XT Di2 electronic groupset! It might be getting announced today so there will likely be articles up about it soon.






Shimano launch new 2023 Di2 Wireless Shifting for ebikes + EP6


So delete if necessary not allowed and I've no idea if this is true but; After GMBN youtube spoke about wireless on the yeti emtb's I looked around and found this site the live page was taken down but the cache version remains; cached link Shimano to Launch New Shifting Modes and Groupsets for...




www.emtbforums.com





There is an 11 speed ebike Di2 version that has automatic shifting (with a manual override so it changes gear for you) and also Free Shift (to change gear whilst coasting or stationary)


“*Free Shift*

With Free Shift, Shimano claims that riders can make gear changes without pedaling the bike. It’s the latest extension of the Di2 electronic shifting tech that the company first introduced back in 2008.


The new shifting mode works by combining the company’s electronic shifting tech and the DEORE XT Di2.


*Auto Shift With Manual Override*

If shifting gears without pedaling still sounds like too much work, Shimano has gone one step further. Its Auto Shift mode allows the tech to shift gears for you.


The company said in a press release that this system makes predictive gear changes based on the rider’s speed and cadence. It accomplishes this through Shimano’s LINKGLIDE drivetrain paired once again with the Di2 electric shifter.


Also, the Automatic Shifting supposedly works during both pedaling and coasting.


*DEORE XT Di2 HYPERGLIDE+*

The second XT Di2 groupset, the HYPERGLIDE+, embellishes the existing 12-speed system with Di2 electronic shifting. It includes the Free Shift mode but not the Auto Shift.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Automatic shifting, very cool. Wireless shifting, glad Shimano got around the patent trolls.

It would appear that automatic shifting would require a built-in power meter, which could be another integrated benefit. However I'm unclear if all of this is eBike only or there's a real bicycle version. I say that because the auto-shifting implies added weight. So I imagine this will be eBike only.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

What's this, a stem spacer on a small rider's bike?  

On the other end, David Valero's bike, what's this, an XL rider riding an XL frame? 

At 6'2" he seems to have a lot of seatpost exposed; he must have exceptionally long legs. However the BH Lynx is pretty old school with a reach of only 472mm in XL and a 68* head angle. The 110 fork is a good choice.

The Chaoyang tires look like a rip of Thunder Burts, but with larger side knobs like the Vittoria Terreno, pretty nice at 2.3, would be even better at 2.4 for a big rider.




carlostruco said:


> More bikes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## down0050 (Aug 4, 2014)

chomxxo said:


> What's this, a stem spacer on a small rider's bike?
> 
> On the other end, David Valero's bike, what's this, an XL rider riding an XL frame?
> 
> ...


In my opinion that is pretty much the perfect XC bike...moderate 472 reach and 68* head angle, short dropper, 110 fork...the best of all worlds! Not the tires though...give me some actual knobs lol


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

In my opinion, an XC bike size Small should have 445mm reach and 80mm short head tube.
And size XS would have 415mm reach and 60mm head tube.

That shorter head tube + slacker HTA hopefully will allow short riders to set bar significantly lower than their seat on 120mm travel bike.

Obviously, I'm not a bike designer so I don't care if that short head tube would be structurally sound or not. I just care about fitting.

PS. Actually, instead of shaving extra low millimeters out of the head tube, can we reduce stack height from the fork? I see many forks have way more A2C length than necessary. It'd be cool to have a new standard, so called low stack fork (510mm A2C instead of 530mm A2C for 120mm travel). Then the bike design their geometry around it, including down tube with more tire clearance to cope with lower fork crown.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Although relative to a steepening seat angle, 450mm reach on size S is excellent and very much where things will land. Minimal stem, we're shaving it off cm by cm year over year. A perfectly-sized XC bike will fit a 35mm stem; of course the product need some adjustability (which is the only practical reason for stem length) so landing at 45-50 is probably where it's at.

The head tube is a separate issue but lowering it shouldn't be too bad, especially on the smaller frames it makes sense.





Hexsense said:


> In my opinion, an XC bike size Small should have 445mm reach and 80mm short head tube.
> And size XS would have 415mm reach and 60mm head tube.
> 
> That shorter head tube + slacker HTA hopefully will allow short riders to set bar significantly lower than their seat on 120mm travel bike.
> ...


----------



## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

chomxxo said:


> However I'm unclear if all of this is eBike only or there's a real bicycle version


In reading the CyclingTips article on it, appears it's an e-bike only version right now, although it may come to other Di2 in the future.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Although relative to a steepening seat angle, 450mm reach on size S is excellent and very much where things will land. Minimal stem, we're shaving it off cm by cm year over year. A perfectly-sized XC bike will fit a 35mm stem; of course the product need some adjustability (which is the only practical reason for stem length) so landing at 45-50 is probably where it's at.
> 
> The head tube is a separate issue but lowering it shouldn't be too bad, especially on the smaller frames it makes sense.


The head tube length problem is related to the reach via minimum stem length of drop stem.
I currently have to ride with 60mm stem because my bike head tube is 100mm long. And it's too tall so I have to rely on a drop stem (FSA SLK-Drop) to put bar clamp directly in front of the head tube, rather than on top of it. A drop stem shorter than this won't clear the head tube. So, if I were to use 35-45mm stem, I'd need the head tube lower to not requiring a drop stem.


----------



## Carioca_XC (Dec 30, 2014)

Hexsense said:


> The head tube length problem is related to the reach via minimum stem length of drop stem.
> I currently have to ride with 60mm stem because my bike head tube is 100mm long. And it's too tall so I have to rely on a drop stem (FSA SLK-Drop) to put bar clamp directly in front of the head tube, rather than on top of it. A drop stem shorter than this won't clear the head tube. So, if I were to use 35-45mm stem, I'd need the head tube lower to not requiring a drop stem.


My new frame has a much taller stack height than my previous one, even though the head tube is not that long, at 95mm. Both frames are small.
For a shorter rider like myself, the FSA SL-K Drop stem makes a lot of sense. I couldn’t achieve the bar height I was aiming at without it. Thanks FSA!


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Brad said:


> Nothing new visible on the Scott’s











Kate Courtney debuts new SCOTT Spark RC Contessa and new equipment


Kate Courtney's new SCOTT Spark RC Contessa has arrived just in time to debut at the Lenzerheide World Cup.




en.brujulabike.com





So I asked why nothing new, "but you said."
and he said" look a little closer" and sure hiding in plain sight








Kate Courtney debuts new SCOTT Spark RC Contessa and new equipment


Kate Courtney's new SCOTT Spark RC Contessa has arrived just in time to debut at the Lenzerheide World Cup.




en.brujulabike.com





adjustable headangle comes with the bike, +- 0.6 degrees


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Any why this is new?! All sparks have it.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Brad said:


> Kate Courtney debuts new SCOTT Spark RC Contessa and new equipment
> 
> 
> Kate Courtney's new SCOTT Spark RC Contessa has arrived just in time to debut at the Lenzerheide World Cup.
> ...


New Aspen seems like the only actual "new" thing? 

Brad Copeland mentioned the Power Meter, it's "new" but has been on the other bike for quite a while.

I was really hoping to see some new suspension tech. Either remote options, or something else.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> New Aspen seems like the only actual "new" thing?
> 
> Brad Copeland mentioned the Power Meter, it's "new" but has been on the other bike for quite a while.
> 
> I was really hoping to see some new suspension tech. Either remote options, or something else.


Ditto, at first I thought the new derailleurs would be seen in the wild but the pics don't show that area very well. The powermeter does appear to be quite different but its been on Nino and others bikes. Its the new version with the interchangable chainring as opposed to the older version where the whole power meter had to be swapped out.
Thanks for pointing out the head angle adjuster is not new. I wasn't aware that all Sparks had this feature from the factory


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Brad said:


> Ditto, at first I thought the new derailleurs would be seen in the wild but the pics don't show that area very well. The powermeter does appear to be quite different but its been on Nino and others bikes. Its the new version with the interchangable chainring as opposed to the older version where the whole power meter had to be swapped out.
> Thanks for pointing out the head angle adjuster is not new. I wasn't aware that all Sparks had this feature from the factory


I think it was the 900 series that had it from factory. I haven't looked up the spec in quite a while though to be fair.

I forgot about the imminent AXS updates!


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Surprised we haven't seen any Shimano Di2 in the wild. might mean it's not that close yet. 

I was very excited seeing the earlier post. On further reading I can't tell if it's still just 11 speed. 

Wireless Di2 12 speed XT/XTR would be a GameChanger.


----------



## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

mail_liam said:


> I think it was the 900 series that had it from factory. I haven't looked up the spec in quite a while though to be


All Sparks have it: +/- 0.6 degrees from neutral by rotating the headset cups (so a 1.2 degree change from one direction to the other). Also possible to get a neutral version, but your mechanic would rather you didn’t (or at least asked before the first ride).


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

RexRacerX said:


> All Sparks have it: +/- 0.6 degrees from neutral by rotating the headset cups (so a 1.2 degree change from one direction to the other). Also possible to get a neutral version, but your mechanic would rather you didn’t (or at least asked before the first ride).


They are coming with the slacker settings from factory and also having a neutral cup set on the box together with the bike!


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

chomxxo said:


> Although relative to a steepening seat angle, 450mm reach on size S is excellent and very much where things will land. Minimal stem, we're shaving it off cm by cm year over year. A perfectly-sized XC bike will fit a 35mm stem; of course the product need some adjustability (which is the only practical reason for stem length) so landing at 45-50 is probably where it's at.
> 
> The head tube is a separate issue but lowering it shouldn't be too bad, especially on the smaller frames it makes sense.


I couldn't think of a worse idea, I ride a small FS frame with slightly less than 410mm reach with a 75mm stem. At 5'7" with a 32.5" inseam I'm taller than your average small frame rider and used to ride Mediums. As the reach has grown I've sized down to get the reach back where I want it and moved to using 400mm seatposts so I have adequate seatpost in the frame with 2" shorter seat tube. I'd bet a number of people are having to do the same. I have never thought while out riding that I need a much shorter stem and more reach. Not once...


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

That's the direction the industry is moving and there are very rational reasons for it. It's taking a small but vocal minority there kicking and screaming. I've had threads closed because of it. You're entitled to your opinion, but I have a long block list. Direct your vitriol somewhere else if you aren't willing to listen to reason.



BoyinBlue said:


> I couldn't think of a worse idea, I ride a small FS frame with slightly less than 410mm reach with a 75mm stem. At 5'7" with a 32.5" inseam I'm taller than your average small frame rider and used to ride Mediums. As the reach has grown I've sized down to get the reach back where I want it and moved to using 400mm seatposts so I have adequate seatpost in the frame with 2" shorter seat tube. I'd bet a number of people are having to do the same. I have never thought while out riding that I need a much shorter stem and more reach. Not once...


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

chomxxo said:


> That's the direction the industry is moving and there are very rational reasons for it. It's taking a small but vocal minority there kicking and screaming. I've had threads closed because of it. You're entitled to your opinion, but I have a long block list. Direct your vitriol somewhere else if you aren't willing to listen to reason.


Oh boy, here we have the voice of reason (the anti-Stuart Smalley-I’ve had threads closed, people aim vitriol at me, only I can see the truth). Other point I forgot is that I’ve had to resort to offset seaposts too with the move to 75-76 degree seat angles on XC bikes.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

chomxxo said:


> That's the direction the industry is moving and there are very rational reasons for it. It's taking a small but vocal minority there kicking and screaming. I've had threads closed because of it. You're entitled to your opinion, but I have a long block list. Direct your vitriol somewhere else if you aren't willing to listen to reason.


I didn’t detect any vitriol in his post. I’ve also (at 5’9.5” or so) begun riding a medium after years on large bikes because of growing reach values. A side benefit has been getting enough bike in front of me with a shorter head tube.

Some trails aren’t suited for 35mm stems and long reaches - they aren’t as good on flatter corners, and the extra front weight shift required to get them around turns isn’t great on rolling terrain without long climbs or descents.


----------



## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

down0050 said:


> In my opinion that is pretty much the perfect XC bike...moderate 472 reach and 68* head angle, short dropper, 110 fork...the best of all worlds! Not the tires though...give me some actual knobs lol


I’m more a fan of older geometry myself. Like a couple years ago, not super steep. I like 68 to 69 degree HTA or close to it. Some of the newer XC bikes have perhaps take a good thing too far. Also like a steep STA but not overly so. Everyone is different but I’m glad to see slightly steeper bikes like 68 or 69. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Dont care so much for those ****! Just take a bike and ride!!

ps please dont quote my old posts 😇


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Automatic shifting, very cool. Wireless shifting, glad Shimano got around the patent trolls.
> 
> It would appear that automatic shifting would require a built-in power meter, which could be another integrated benefit. However I'm unclear if all of this is eBike only or there's a real bicycle version. I say that because the auto-shifting implies added weight. So I imagine this will be eBike only.


Although there’s a 12 speed version of the new Shimano XT Di2 M8150 it turns out this release was purely for ebikes.

The free shift and auto shift modes are purely ebike only. It’s also a paper release in that availability is Spring 2023.

With the gears wired into the main ebike battery there is a reserve built in, so that even when the main battery goes flat for pedal assist, the reserved power in the battery keeps the gears working for several hundred gear shifts afterwards. 









Shimano introduces 12 speed XT Di2 MTB... for ebikes only, includes new Free Shift & Auto Shift features


Shimano 12-speed XT Di2 is finally here! Just not for normal mountain bikes... only e-bikes will get the new group. For now?




bikerumor.com





Apparently the new 12 speed Di2 components (rear derailleur and shifter) use the EW-SD300 wires so although they are incompatible with any older 11 speed Shimano MTB Di2 they may be able to mix and match with 12 speed road Di2 parts:









New XTR Di2? - Weight Weenies







weightweenies.starbike.com













Di2 Non-series components EW-SD300 - Electric Wire / E-Tube cable details | BetterShifting.com


The next-generation Shimano EW-SD300 electric wire is used to connect the individual parts of the EP8 E-MTB and future Di2 series to each other. They're availab




bettershifting.com





Considering Shimano has recently announced in quick succession a new 105 Di2 road groupset, and then this new ebike groupset, it’s likely that the non ebike XT Di2 will be along sooner rather than later as well. The parts already exist.

On the technology side Bosch are showing off their mountain bike ABS system too. The brakes are made by Magura with electronics from Bosch. I was left thinking that the body position dependent braking could be a real problem at some points - shift your body weight too far back behind the saddle and the brakes don’t work! It adds about 200g to the bike weight so is unlikely to be seen on XC bikes anytime soon in its current form:


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

The new 2023 Niner RKT9 RDO has been released:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-2023-niner-rkt-9-rdo-xc-race-ready.html



It comes with a 100mm travel fork as standard but can be run with a 120mm travel fork and has a flip chip to slacken or steepen the geometry slightly.

_“According to Niner, a size medium frame with shock and seat collar (but no axle or headset) is 5 lb (2.27 kg). The complete bike weight for a medium 5-Star XO1 AXS LTD build is said to be around 23.5 lb (10.7 kg).”_


----------



## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

mail_liam said:


> Surprised we haven't seen any Shimano Di2 in the wild. might mean it's not that close yet.
> 
> I was very excited seeing the earlier post. On further reading I can't tell if it's still just 11 speed.
> 
> Wireless Di2 12 speed XT/XTR would be a GameChanger.


The new 105 Di2 still uses an internal battery, but wireless shifting. I guess it remains to be seen if a similar setup will be used for the mtb group. I love Di2 on my gravel/CX bike, but I’m not sold on it for mtb. Maybe I just like jamming that shifter forward and crunching the gears. Lol.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

This is the wireless tech I'd like to see in MTB.








Classified partners with leading wheel brands for its Powershift hub - CyclingTips


The two-speed internal gear hub will soon be available in wheels from Enve, Mavic, DT Swiss, Reynolds, and more.




cyclingtips.com





That rear hub have two internal gears. 1x means the free hub lock into the hub body like a normal hub. And the addition of 0.7x gear where the internal gear hub reduce the gearing to 0.7x. They are engaged with wireless trigger.
So, we'd gain 2x gear equivalent back. But with 1x chainring up front. All the 1x specific stuff like narrow wide tooth, 1x clutch derailleur etc. are intact. We just get the virtual small front ring in the rear hub.


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Someone is going to buy Classified's tech I bet. Sram most likely, maybe FSA or someone with cash. Standardizing an internal front shifter thing would be cool, and wireless.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> That's the direction the industry is moving and there are very rational reasons for it. It's taking a small but vocal minority there kicking and screaming. I've had threads closed because of it. You're entitled to your opinion, but I have a long block list. Direct your vitriol somewhere else if you aren't willing to listen to reason.


The only vitriol is coming from you…as always.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

BoyinBlue said:


> I couldn't think of a worse idea, I ride a small FS frame with slightly less than 410mm reach with a 75mm stem. At 5'7" with a 32.5" inseam I'm taller than your average small frame rider and used to ride Mediums. As the reach has grown I've sized down to get the reach back where I want it and moved to using 400mm seatposts so I have adequate seatpost in the frame with 2" shorter seat tube. I'd bet a number of people are having to do the same. I have never thought while out riding that I need a much shorter stem and more reach. Not once...


Sure, I know people still like short reach bike, that's why my proposal have XS size too.
Maybe also offer XXS with 385mm reach as well for full coverage.

Something like:
XXS reach: 385mm head tube length: 60mm
XS reach: 415mm head tube length: 60mm
S reach: 445mm head tube length: 80mm
M reach: 470mm head tube length: 100mm
L reach: 500mm head tube length: 115mm
XL reach: 530mm head tube length: 130mm
...


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

Hexsense said:


> Sure, I know people still like short reach bike, that's why my proposal have XS size too.
> Maybe also offer XXS with 385mm reach as well for full coverage.
> 
> Something like:
> ...


60mm head tube most likley would not clear the taper on the fork steerer. It’s not an accident the shortest head tubes seen are typically 90mm.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Oh, right. Just measured.
Taper on Manitou R7 Pro ends at 70mm point from where steerer tube starts.

So 85mm would probably be shortest head tube available with safe margin for common fork with long taper considering the lower headset+fork crown adds ~5mm and top headset bearing is all internal in the head tube.

Hmm, so short rider still either needs to use drop stem. Or bike manufacturer might have to shave too tall height from the fork rather than from the head tube.

Or we take a short cut, reduce stack height by slacken the head tube angle significantly so that the the fork rake more forward with less height below the head tube.


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

Hexsense said:


> Oh, right. Just measured.
> Taper on Manitou R7 Pro ends at 70mm point from where steerer tube starts.
> 
> So 85mm would probably be shortest head tube available with safe margin for common fork with long taper considering the lower headset+fork crown adds ~5mm and top headset bearing is all internal in the head tube.
> ...


Are you going to rake it to 50 degrees? Then the stem height goes higher since it’s clamping the same axis angle. Bottom line you need a 90mm head tube and short riders wanting -20 degree and more stems need 60mm of length to clear the head tube in current configurations.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

That's what I do to my current bike. FSA Drop stem put handlebar in front of the head tube.

It seems the space hogger is really the fork.
At 120mm travel, Fox 34SC has 530mm A2C. Manitou R7 Pro has 525mm A2C.
Looking at my R7 Pro, a few centimeters can still be shaved out from fork height. But if they just do it now, at full compression the wheel would hit down tube. The damper adjusters would also hit it when handlebar are turned. So it'd need both new fork with lower A2C length and new frame with more down tube clearance to reduce stack height significantly.
I can see why manufacturers won't solve this. And just let Nino Shurter at 5'8 use -40 degree stem .


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Sure, I know people still like short reach bike, that's why my proposal have XS size too.
> Maybe also offer XXS with 385mm reach as well for full coverage.
> 
> Something like:
> ...


But let’s keep the seat tube lengths within reason too. 38cm on a small serves nothing purpose. XCO racer don’t run 150mm droppers


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Agreed, I'm using 100mm dropper and I think it's too much.
If I buy another one, it'd be 80mm instead. 65mm would also works. But it feel weird to have dropper post to just drop it by 6.5cm.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Agreed, I'm using 100mm dropper and I think it's too much.
> If I buy another one, it'd be 80mm instead. 65mm would also works. But it feel weird to have dropper post to just drop it by 6.5cm.


80mm to 100mm is all I use of my 125mm dropper. I’d prefer a shorter lighter unit to replace this one for next season


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Do you guys running ~80mm droppers have more than one bike for chunky terrain days?


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

I have 3 bikes, but they are road, gravel, and XC.
I don't have anything for chunkier terrain than XC race course and natural trail.


----------



## AndrewHardtail (Nov 2, 2021)

BoyinBlue said:


> Bottom line you need a 90mm head tube and short riders wanting -20 degree and more stems need 60mm of length to clear the head tube in current configurations.


Seems like you should be able to get around the 60mm min stem by having negative rise in the bars. Schurter’s bar/stem is all one piece but effectively I think the bars drop down from the “stem” part. 
I’ve considered trying to run riser bars upside down but I don’t mind a long stem so I haven’t done it yet. Have any of you other short guys tried that?


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

No it’s a major bike fit problem for me on my medium scalpel. I can solve some of it with an Ocho when it’s in stock again for now I just bend my arms more lol


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Having bar well below the top tube increase the risk of hitting handlebar into the top tube in an accident.
So we'd need a knock-block or protect the top tube in other ways.

Ideally, we'd want the fork height to shrink, so the head tube and top tube all go down with it. But that isn't easy. So we might just have to live with bar below top tube.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Having bar well below the top tube increase the risk of hitting handlebar into the top tube in an accident.
> So we'd need a knock-block or protect the top tube in other ways.
> 
> Ideally, we'd want the fork height to shrink, so the head tube and top tube all go down with it. But that isn't easy. So we might just have to live with bar below top tube.


Well an 80mm travel fork could work but those are so not bro so no options available


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

It is almost like small riders are running into the issue of their wheels being too big. 

I am completely on 29ers now but my old 27.5 XC bikes were really good for me. I rode them fast and didn't stuggle to find a fit that I was happy with. I don't see us going back to 27.5 in small bikes but a lot of problems small riders have nowadays are because they are trying to fit around the big wheels.

I wouldn't be surprised though to see someone come out with a mullet for XC bikes. Wouldn't help with fit issues but certainly give a bit more agility. I know small Enduro racers seem to really like mullet bikes.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

LMN said:


> It is almost like small riders are running into the issue of their wheels being too big.
> 
> I am completely on 29ers now but my old 27.5 XC bikes were really good for me. I rode them fast and didn't stuggle to find a fit that I was happy with. I don't see us going back to 27.5 in small bikes but a lot of problems small riders have nowadays are because they are trying to fit around the big wheels.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised though to see someone come out with a mullet for XC bikes. Wouldn't help with fit issues but certainly give a bit more agility. I know small Enduro racers seem to really like mullet bikes.


I would be surprised. The ability to maintain momentum over small trail features is a big part of bigger wheels and I doubt racers would give that up.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Jayem said:


> I would be surprised. The ability to maintain momentum over small trail features is a big part of bigger wheels and I doubt racers would give that up.


Maintaining momentum was a much bigger factor when XC tire widths were 1.9. But at tire widths of 2.4 that advantage of a bigger wheel is marginal.

But I agree with you in that I don't think it will take. Primarily because there just isn't the tires out there. That is what made me finally switch to a 29er. There were limited options for 27.5 XC tires.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

XS 29er bikes have always looked a bit funny. Like the first 29ers all looked, but the diameter of the wheels and the tube dimensions places some pretty big barriers. I don't envy your predicament.

Thinking about the bars being lower than the top tube, that might be a good thing for safety of the tube as wouldn't the bars hit on the end instead of the shifter/dropper?

That's my issue anyway, my bars are above the top tube, but the shifter and dropper are the things that contact in a crash. I'm going full-ham with a grip shift, Yep Components, and maybe even the new TwistLoc to try and remove any risk of collection of the top tube. Hopefully they function well 😬🤞


----------



## rapsac (Sep 26, 2004)

Brad said:


> Well an 80mm travel fork could work but those are so not bro so no options available


RS SID SL and Manitou R7 can both be set at 80mm travel.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Maintaining momentum was a much bigger factor when XC tire widths were 1.9. But at tire widths of 2.4 that advantage of a bigger wheel is marginal.
> 
> But I agree with you in that I don't think it will take. Primarily because there just isn't the tires out there. That is what made me finally switch to a 29er. There were limited options for 27.5 XC tires.


Same here. I switched from 27.5 to 29 due to lack of suitable tyre availability. At 172cm I’m average height and even so the big wheels are still not as efficient for me as 27,5.
This nonsense about 29er wheels maintainning more momentum has to stop. They’re not significantly heavier than 27.5 wheels and the system maintains momentum which is the bike plus rider. The roll over benefit is small.

the industry won’t admit it’s wrong so we’re stuck with 29. Just a pity it’s so hard to find stems that allow better fit and bikes with shorter head tubes

I believe some forks are available in 80mm but this is theoretical as they’re never in stock even before supply shortages hit us


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Brad said:


> Same here. I switched from 27.5 to 29 due to lack of suitable tyre availability. At 172cm I’m average height and even so the big wheels are still not as efficient for me as 27,5.
> This nonsense about 29er wheels maintainning more momentum has to stop. They’re not significantly heavier than 27.5 wheels and the system maintains momentum which is the bike plus rider. The roll over benefit is small.
> 
> the industry won’t admit it’s wrong so we’re stuck with 29. Just a pity it’s so hard to find stems that allow better fit and bikes with shorter head tubes
> ...


Curious what you mean by not as efficient as 27.5 for you? 

Having ridden all three wheel sizes, in XL sizes the 29er is head and shoulders above the other two in terms of speed and smoothness. I completely appreciate that doesn't factor in at all the specific geometry issues you face on the smaller sizes. I do think they should go back to offering more 27.5 in small sizes and 29 in larger, but I think there's a couple problems. One being having mixed wheel sizes in a house _can_ be a nuisance. Am I wrong in thinking that the elite women were demanding 29ers from their sponsors when there was a mix in the field (I might be completely misremembering there, I feel like that was a thing though you guys would know far better than me).


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## jf45 (Nov 23, 2021)

Brad said:


> I believe some forks are available in 80mm but this is theoretical as they’re never in stock even before supply shortages hit us


Like we all just buy the same "long" chain and shorten it down to whatever length our bike needs.. the same with practically all 29er XC forks.

Like rapsac mentioned. Beyond the Rockshox Sid SL & Manitou R7.. also the Fox 32 SC and the Suntour Axon can be run at 80mm. That's covers the majority of all common 29er XC forks. (left out are the DT D232 and your Cannondale Left Ocho  ). The Manitou R7 Pro & Expert forks just needs spacers moved around (included whether you're buying them as 100mm, 120mm or whatever). The Rockshox/Fox/Suntour ones needs a shorter air-shaft that needs to be bought separately. Both the RS and Fox 80mm air shafts are readily available (at least in the Northern Hemisphere..).


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Curious what you mean by not as efficient as 27.5 for you?
> 
> Having ridden all three wheel sizes, in XL sizes the 29er is head and shoulders above the other two in terms of speed and smoothness. I completely appreciate that doesn't factor in at all the specific geometry issues you face on the smaller sizes. I do think they should go back to offering more 27.5 in small sizes and 29 in larger, but I think there's a couple problems. One being having mixed wheel sizes in a house _can_ be a nuisance. Am I wrong in thinking that the elite women were demanding 29ers from their sponsors when there was a mix in the field (I might be completely misremembering there, I feel like that was a thing though you guys would know far better than me).


 I’ve always found the 27.5 bikes to be easier to manual, bunny hop and just generally get over obstacles. On gravel trail I’ve never found the smaller wheel to hold me back. I never struggled to keep up with guys on 29ers as I just equalised the overall gearing with a bigger chainring. I also found I used less calories riding a 27.5 over the same distance on a Mtb trail due to lower average heart rate especially through technical terrain. All the movement adds up. I’m now more used to the 29er and have obviously compensated but that feeling of the bike going away from me remains, of being a passenger. I still can’t get enough weight over the front end due to not being able to lower the bars sufficiently.

many ladies wanted to retain their 27.5 bikes for the same reason but manufacturers wanted the in their latest 29ers. I suspect this is one of Emily Batty’s challenges although a 27.5 is available in the trek line up.




jf45 said:


> Like we all just buy the same "long" chain and shorten it down to whatever length our bike needs.. the same with practically all 29er XC forks.
> 
> Like rapsac mentioned. Beyond the Rockshox Sid SL & Manitou R7.. also the Fox 32 SC and the Suntour Axon can be run at 80mm. That's covers the majority of all common 29er XC forks. (left out are the DT D232 and your Cannondale Left Ocho  ). The Manitou R7 Pro & Expert forks just needs spacers moved around (included whether you're buying them as 100mm, 120mm or whatever). The Rockshox/Fox/Suntour ones needs a shorter air-shaft that needs to be bought separately. Both the RS and Fox 80mm air shafts are readily available (at least in the Northern Hemisphere..).


Not down here. Special order and as you correctly point out if it doesn’t reduce the axle to crown length it’s a pointless exercise. Then the rear end of the bike is high and the bb still lower to the ground making pedal strikes even more of a reality. The bike would need to be designed around the 80mm suspension travel to be ideal


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I like my 27.5 enduro for jumping and tight chutes, but my 29er with similar travel is faster, especially uphill. Almost to the ridiculous. With the fat bikes I’m not finding a big difference between 27.5 and 26…except for uphill traction. That is significantly different, that longer tire patch means more climbs are successful in soft. My 29er XC race bike isn’t a great comparison because light and low resistance, but I remember back in the early days of 29er people were showing up at South Mountain with the first XC 29er and just leveling the terrain relatively, to where those of us on long travel 26ers couldn’t keep up and we knew the skill level of those other riders to not be superior.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

It's a little different in this thread because there are some serious racers in here where absolute efficiency is the priority, but these tiny women on 29ers not competing just riding trails is really strange to me. I guess it just shows the power of advertising and trends in general.

GMBN did a 29er vs. Mullet comparison (trail/ AM riding) using a 5"1" woman and a 6'3" man and the results were interesting.

The shorter woman was faster on the Mullet by 2 seconds and frankly looked much better in the turns.
The taller man was slower on the Mullet by 2 seconds but was manual-ing and just having more fun on the mullet.

Both riders said they were converting to Mullet on their trail bikes. For the woman it was obvious why, she was not only faster but also had more fun. In the case of the man, he realized that it was worth giving up 2 seconds over a 3 minute run, just because he had more fun. But he also stated his XC rigs, at his height, would remain 29ers for the absolute speed but also as a better combo for a short travel bike.

I'm a lanky 5'10" and definitely prefer a 29er. My 5'3" wife will remain on a 27.5". And my 10 year old daughter who just passed 5' tall and will hit 5'7" - 5'9" by adulthood, I'll build her a mullet trail bike once she is grown out of Mom's bike.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

La Santa Cruz Blur de Luca Braidot: la primera bici de la marca en ganar una Copa del Mundo XCO


El italiano Luca Braidot consiguió en la Copa del Mundo XCO de Lenzerheide una victoria histórica para su carrera y para la marca de bicicletas Santa Cruz




www.brujulabike.com













KTM Scarp edición limitada Victor Koretzky, pronto a la venta


La KTM Scarp personalizada para Victor Koretzky que pronto lucirá el biker francés y que estará disponible a la venta como edición limitada




esmtb.com













Bicis de los pro: Wilier Urta SLR "campeona de Europa" de Rabensteiner y Avondetto


La Wilier Urta SLR se ha vestido de campeona de Europa para celebrar los títulos de Fabian Rabensteiner y Simone Avondetto




esmtb.com


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Brad said:


> Not down here. Special order and as you correctly point out if it doesn’t reduce the axle to crown length it’s a pointless exercise. Then the rear end of the bike is high and the bb still lower to the ground making pedal strikes even more of a reality. The bike would need to be designed around the 80mm suspension travel to be ideal


Manitou R7 Pro does shrink its A2C by reducing its travel.
You can buy 100mm or 120mm version. Then, open it up to change spacer configuration via spacer and done. No other adjustment needed.
The fork no longer extend to the full length after you reduce its travel via spacer.

R7 Pro A2C at 120mm travel is 525mm. 5mm lower than Fox34SC and RS Sid Ultimate at 120mm.
R7 Pro A2C at 100mm travel is 505mm,
R7 Pro A2C at 80mm travel is 485mm.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

There's a few posts on IG from EuroBike showing new Di2. Hard to tell, but it looks wireless. The videos etc I've watched of the E-Bikes all seem to still show the cable though.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mail_liam said:


> There's a few posts on IG from EuroBike showing new Di2. Hard to tell, but it looks wireless. The videos etc I've watched of the E-Bikes all seem to still show the cable though.


The shifting on the new ebike DI2 is wireless, the actuator is not.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Jayem said:


> I like my 27.5 enduro for jumping and tight chutes, but my 29er with similar travel is faster, especially uphill. Almost to the ridiculous. With the fat bikes I’m not finding a big difference between 27.5 and 26…except for uphill traction. That is significantly different, that longer tire patch means more climbs are successful in soft. My 29er XC race bike isn’t a great comparison because light and low resistance, but I remember back in the early days of 29er people were showing up at South Mountain with the first XC 29er and just leveling the terrain relatively, to where those of us on long travel 26ers couldn’t keep up and we knew the skill level of those other riders to not be superior.


It is a mute point now. 

But back in fall 2011 and fall 2015 significant resources were spent testing equipment. In 2011 it was 26 versus 29 and in 2015 it was 27.5 versus 29er. In both cases the smaller wheel wheeled bike was a bit quicker for a small rider. And at the olympics the womens' gold was won on a 26er (2012) and then a 27.5 (2016).

An interesting tid-bit of information, at the Rio Olympics in 2016 out of the top 5 women, only one was on a 29er. The rest were on 27.5.

29ers are one of those things that were forced on smaller riders desite there being solid evidence through competition that 27.5s were a better bike.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

I really wish we could see Batty back on a 27.5 hardtail. For her sake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

A small frame builder pretty much does what you are all talking about for his hardtails. However, I think the stack is a little higher than pure xc racers prefer for medium sized frames.






Hummingbird — Neuhaus Metalworks







www.neuhausmetalworks.com





Under 5'4" he builds 27.5 frames for riders because otherwise the bar height is just rediculous. Forks are becoming an issue. The industry is quickly trying to move away from 27.5.

Interestingly 27.5 + seems to still be here.


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## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

LMN said:


> But back in fall 2011 and fall 2015 significant resources were spent testing equipment. In 2011 it was 26 versus 29 and in 2015 it was 27.5 versus 29er. In both cases the smaller wheel wheeled bike was a bit quicker for a small rider.


Obviously a continuous threshold depending on the individual, but what's your guess for the height at which 95 % of riders are faster on 27.5 vs. 29? Asking for a friend.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

RexRacerX said:


> Obviously a continuous threshold depending on the individual, but what's your guess for the height at which 95 % of riders are faster on 27.5 vs. 29? Asking for a friend.


I’ll await LMN response , in my experience around 164cm


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

This is crazy...









9,1 kg para la nueva Scott Spark RC Hypersonic de Dangerholm, adelanto exclusivo y detalles


La Scott Spark RC Hypersonic de Dangerholm para la báscula en 9,19 kg y tiene todo lo que esperas de un montaje personalizado por él. Incluyendo algún prototipo.




esmtb.com


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## MillerC (Oct 25, 2018)

I love my scale 700 with 120 pike ultimate. 2.25 Aspen rear. 2.6 rekon front. Just a blast on tight twisty root single track.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> There's a few posts on IG from EuroBike showing new Di2. Hard to tell, but it looks wireless. The videos etc I've watched of the E-Bikes all seem to still show the cable though.


The new Shimano Di2 ebike groupsets look to use a wired shifter, not wireless. It’s just that all the pictures are taken without the wire attached!


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Elastic Interface are showing off a new 3d printed cycling short chamois pad at Eurobike 2022: 









Could this 3D-printed chamois pad spell the end of saddle sores?


Elastic Interface debuts world's first 3D-printed chamois pad




www.bikeradar.com






_“As with bike saddles, 3D printing enables you to control density (ie, how squishy the pad is) with a high degree of localised control.

In the hand, the 3D-printed chamois feels very different to a typical foam pad.

The denser samples feel a bit firmer than foam, but it also appears the lattice structure can be modified such that the pad compresses in a diagonal plane.

In addition to increased comfort, the pad is claimed to be more breathable thanks to its open-lattice structure.
The material is also hydrophobic, meaning it will not absorb sweat, further increasing comfort.”_ *Bikeradar
*

Elastic interface provide pads for many of the well known cycling short manufacturers Assos, 7mesh etc, although this new 3d printed pad isn’t expected to be on sale until 2023.

When it comes to advancements in technology over recent years the newer cycling short pads are way better than they have been. This is one of those things I’m definitely going to try once they’re available.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

RexRacerX said:


> Obviously a continuous threshold depending on the individual, but what's your guess for the height at which 95 % of riders are faster on 27.5 vs. 29? Asking for a friend.


I would never say to a rider that they would be better on a certain bike. But if you are under 170cm it would have been worth testing a 27.5 bike. I say would have, because you can't get than any more in XC bikes.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

On the topic of high front ends on size small 29ers, one solution might be to run an Intend upside down 29er fork as they have a solid 10-15mm lower A2C for the same travel as the other more standard forks.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> On the topic of high front ends on size small 29ers, one solution might be to run an Intend upside down 29er fork as they have a solid 10-15mm lower A2C for the same travel as the other more standard forks.


That would work but it would also steepen the head angle and make that bb low.


One of the best strategies, I think, is to commit to short cranks. The rider can have their seat a bit higher giving them a balanced position.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Continuing the 3D printing theme Selle Italia have a new 3D printed saddle at Eurobike 2022:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/day-2-randoms-eurobike-2022.html












It’s based on the shape of a Selle Italia SLR Boost saddle and the upper is made by Carbon (the same company that makes the 3D printed uppers for Specialized and Fizik saddles too).

Apparently the padding design is a proprietary one by Selle Italia and it looks a little different to the others. Both the Specialized and Fizik saddles use hexagonal rods and spokes for their padding whilst the Selle Italia looks to use a square pattern for its padding.

Photos for comparison of the uppers

Specialized Power Mirror 3D printed saddle










Fizik Argo Adaptive 3D printed saddle


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## MillerC (Oct 25, 2018)

I tried to buy one of those saddles but they said my kidneys aren't worth enough.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Whoopee cushion?


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

I tried Fizik Tempo Argo Adaptive.
It's not for me. Deal breaker for me is the transition from back to saddle nose. Too wide and the saddle rub my thigh if I sit far back. However if I sit more forward to avoid wide nose, then where I sit is not wide enough. I need T shape saddle, not a V shape. Also, I don't really feel that the 3d printing saddle padding is any better than my conventional Sqlab saddles.

So shape is still the most important for fit. 3d printing doesn't change that. Selle Italia SLR's shape would fit be much better. Specialized Romin Mirror would fit as well.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> I would never say to a rider that they would be better on a certain bike. But if you are under 170cm it would have been worth testing a 27.5 bike. I say would have, because you can't get than any more in XC bikes.


For a while the industry seemed to be sensible by offering XS and S in 27.5, with M ,L and XL in29 but then it all went stupid when the long low smack mantra took hold. A longer wheelbase suddenly made it possible to fit 29er wheels into S and XS was largely dropped or moved into the kiddies bikes section. These now longer bikes do help one climb faster as there’s more traction courtesy of the rider weight being further ahead of the rear axle but for shorter people it’s slower to descend . More stable maybe but definitely harder to thread through the corners. Some say they feel faster but their Strava doesn’t lie. When PB date back to 2017. I’ve only recently started claiming Pb on my 29 and I chalk that up to just riding better and being fitter


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Or finally learning to ride modern geometry bikes? It requires a completely different way of turning. Overall - faster - in some very specific situations - more difficult. If the benefits didn't outweigh the costs then they wouldn't be winning wcs.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Very nice. Besides the usual weight weenie techniques that might not be raceable, looks like it comes down to the fork. Unfortunately not getting any info about it from the page. Do you know what it is?



carlostruco said:


> This is crazy...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

Hexsense said:


> Manitou R7 Pro does shrink its A2C by reducing its travel.
> You can buy 100mm or 120mm version. Then, open it up to change spacer configuration via spacer and done. No other adjustment needed.
> The fork no longer extend to the full length after you reduce its travel via spacer.
> 
> ...


I have an R7 Pro at 120mm. It has a wonderful combination of taking a lot of force to break away at the top of the travel, yet also sloppy when fully extended—I thought my headset was loose. Hopefully it can be resolved and it will go on my old Salsa at 80-100mm. 

I have a new Pike coming. No more screwing around.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

joebusby said:


> Or finally learning to ride modern geometry bikes? It requires a completely different way of turning. Overall - faster - in some very specific situations - more difficult. If the benefits didn't outweigh the costs then they wouldn't be winning wcs.


It has nothing to do with learning new geometry. Claiming slower times due to needing to learn to ride new geometry is such a arrogant bollocks statement. Longer bikes require more physicality which means you work up and you work down. The only thing they give you is more stability and more stability requires more physical input to manoeuvre. The difference between my 29er and older 27.5 is not drastic. HA was 69 vs 69.5. SA was 73.5 vs 74, WB 110.9 vs 111.9cm but the stack was a whopping inch and a half lower and that made a world of difference in how I could weight the front wheel. I have tested loads of bikes and lately especially 29ers and the picture is clear to me that the better bike for me is the one where I can get the stack about an inch lower and a top tube of around 680mm.
The more slack the HA the more I need to weight that doesn’t wheel which is why so many pros rise a size down with anti endurobro long stems.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

How tall are you Brad & what size bikes do you ride?

Thx.


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Brad said:


> It has nothing to do with learning new geometry. Claiming slower times due to needing to learn to ride new geometry is such a arrogant bollocks statement. Longer bikes require more physicality which means you work up and you work down. The only thing they give you is more stability and more stability requires more physical input to manoeuvre. The difference between my 29er and older 27.5 is not drastic. HA was 69 vs 69.5. SA was 73.5 vs 74, WB 110.9 vs 111.9cm but the stack was a whopping inch and a half lower and that made a world of difference in how I could weight the front wheel. I have tested loads of bikes and lately especially 29ers and the picture is clear to me that the better bike for me is the one where I can get the stack about an inch lower and a top tube of around 680mm.
> The more slack the HA the more I need to weight that doesn’t wheel which is why so many pros rise a size down with anti endurobro long stems.


Hardly arrogant bollocks if you literally demonstrated yourself that practice on the new bike made you faster. However - no need to jump to rudeness and abuse - you'll carry the habit over into real life which is bad. 

You said 'longer bikes are slower' and 'longer bikes require more physicality', and 'i need to weight the front more'. Your bikes are 1cm different in wheelbase; essentially meaningless in difference unless you are suggesting that a corner you used to be able to get around you only cleared by 1cm.

You are correct though, you need to weight the front wheel more as it is further in front of you. You can help yourself with a -25, or you can ride more forwards. Both balance out the very slightly higher front stack. 

Until the world cup all start riding 27.5, the odds are that the problem isn't the bike.


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## MillerC (Oct 25, 2018)

Nino was the most Dominatrix ever on 27.5.


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

MillerC said:


> Nino was the most Dominatrix ever on 27.5.


He may need to break out the whips and chains to get #34


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

joebusby said:


> Hardly arrogant bollocks if you literally demonstrated yourself that practice on the new bike made you faster. However - no need to jump to rudeness and abuse - you'll carry the habit over into real life which is bad.
> 
> You said 'longer bikes are slower' and 'longer bikes require more physicality', and 'i need to weight the front more'. Your bikes are 1cm different in wheelbase; essentially meaningless in difference unless you are suggesting that a corner you used to be able to get around you only cleared by 1cm.
> 
> ...


Anybody ever play on a see-saw with a kid? Who has to get shorter vs longer to balance the weight? It's not worth arguing because people don't even know what they're talking about. And the wheel size debate, come on, resolved a decade ago. FS vs hardtail was already without dispute in the 26" days, 29ers just provided it a temporary renaissance.


----------



## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

chomxxo said:


> Very nice. Besides the usual weight weenie techniques that might not be raceable, looks like it comes down to the fork. Unfortunately not getting any info about it from the page. Do you know what it is?


Intend. Not released yet though, I think. Probably has a damper from an SID.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> How tall are you Brad & what size bikes do you ride?
> 
> Thx.


172cm
Usually small or medium depending on reach.
Last two Mtb ms have been medium (2016 Giant Anthem Advanced 1) and then cannondale scalpel Si Carbon 1 hi-mod medium ( because a Small (27.5) wasn’t available.
Road bikes are both small with reach of 370 and 378 with 120mm and 110mm stems respectively 
Saddle height 73.5cm centre bb to top of saddle, saddle to bar drop 8 to 10cm depending on what it’s used for


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> Very nice. Besides the usual weight weenie techniques that might not be raceable, looks like it comes down to the fork. Unfortunately not getting any info about it from the page. Do you know what it is?


Intend...that's what the article and pic say.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

RexRacerX said:


> Intend. Not released yet though, I think. Probably has a damper from an SID.


OK it's a start. Knowing the manufacturer doesn't narrow down the specs but I've searched the site and came up with this which looks like the closest current match, the Intend Hero RD 120mm.









Hero - Intend


Meet our classic: The Intend Hero. Lightweight and ready to rumble through any terrain.




www.intend-bc.com





At 1650g in the lightest configuration, not sure if the model Dangerholm is using is just for bling or there's actually a weight advantage. I guess we'll have to see if there's a viable production version. The RockShox RS-1 didn't turn out too well.


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## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

chomxxo said:


> OK it's a start. Knowing the manufacturer doesn't narrow down the specs but I've searched the site and came up with this which looks like the closest current match, the Intend Hero RD 120mm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Edit:

It's on a different page:









Samurai XC - Intend


The down country fork for riders who want an even lighter and cleaner front. A new crown and dropout design save weight and improve performance.




www.intend-bc.com





but, 1400-1500 g


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

People keep trying to reinvent the single crown (and some double) inverted fork. It's an idiotic idea. Double crown is still not as torsionally stiff, but it at least benefits from the bushing overlap and 2nd crown, both of which are huge advantages. That space between the two crowns on the dual crown version where the lowers can slide into the uppers gives it far more bushing overlap. You can go to exotic engineering and production to try and make it work, but put that time and effort into a right side up fork and you end up with something that is even better. Unsprung weight is a myth, as the % difference when you count all the unsprung weight is negligible (lowers, axle, brake caliper and mount, hub, spokes, rotor, rim, tire, sealant, oil in the fork lowers, etc). You have a bigger difference changing tires. The biggest reason companies do this is that it's relatively cheap, a lot cheaper than casting lowers, but the performance always takes a hit, there's just no good reason to do it.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I loved my Halson Inversion fork.
Until the tubes un-bonded from the crown...


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

RexRacerX said:


> It's on a different page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That fork doesn't do fork offset in the traditional way. Instead of having telescope fork parallel to the steerer tube(+actual offset at fork crown and/or drop out), the telescopic part itself angle forward to emulate fork offset instead.

That sound smart, but wait.
On a traditional fork, you have 44mm (or 51mm) fork offset regardless if the fork is at full compression or full extension, because the telescopic action is parallel to the steerer tube.

On this fork, it'd be 44mm offset at full extension. Then, as the fork compress, the fork offset shrink. Is this a good trait or bad trait?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Jayem said:


> People keep trying to reinvent the single crown (and some double) inverted fork. It's an idiotic idea. Double crown is still not as torsionally stiff, but it at least benefits from the bushing overlap and 2nd crown, both of which are huge advantages. That space between the two crowns on the dual crown version where the lowers can slide into the uppers gives it far more bushing overlap. You can go to exotic engineering and production to try and make it work, but put that time and effort into a right side up fork and you end up with something that is even better. Unsprung weight is a myth, as the % difference when you count all the unsprung weight is negligible (lowers, axle, brake caliper and mount, hub, spokes, rotor, rim, tire, sealant, oil in the fork lowers, etc). You have a bigger difference changing tires. The biggest reason companies do this is that it's relatively cheap, a lot cheaper than casting lowers, but the performance always takes a hit, there's just no good reason to do it.


I hear you. At the same time there are a handful of very positive reviews on the intend and Manitou upside down products. Seems there are real downsides, but also some real positives. Both of those companies also offer right side up forks too.
Personally, I'd be comfortable taking the plunge on that 120 Intend for a XC racing application. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> That fork doesn't do fork offset in the traditional way. Instead of having telescope fork parallel to the steerer tube(+actual offset at fork crown and/or drop out), the telescopic part itself angle forward to emulate fork offset instead.
> 
> That sound smart, but wait.
> On a traditional fork, you have 44mm (or 51mm) fork offset regardless if the fork is at full compression or full extension, because the telescopic action is parallel to the steerer tube.
> ...


Well if offset shrinks then trail increases which is a good thing deeper into the travel. Why would this be a concern?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> I hear you. At the same time there are a handful of very positive reviews on the intend and Manitou upside down products. Seems there are real downsides, but also some real positives. Both of those companies also offer right side up forks too.
> Personally, I'd be comfortable taking the plunge on that 120 Intend for a XC racing application.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


What are the real positives?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Unless you can make it as torsionally stiff as a braced fork and as light I don’t see the point except for ease of manufacture. I don’t know why a dual sided Headshok type design hasn’t been tried yet


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Brad said:


> Well if offset shrinks then trail increases which is a good thing deeper into the travel. Why would this be a concern?


I don't know, it's just different from the norm. That's why I said I don't know if it's a positive or negative.
Do we ever have to steer hard when fork is deep in the travel in XC?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Jayem said:


> What are the real positives?


Having never ridden one, initial suppleness, front brake feels 2x as strong and much more accurate, better off-camber performance/ traction, amazing wet weather traction, looks really cool... are some of the reported benefits. 

The way the offset is done on this fork might maintain stability as the fork compresses, Intend has an axle clamp that should alleviate the primary torsional concern, the damping is a known entity (RS off the shelf part), and frankly XC tires on 100-120mm travel shouldn't create much if any of the torsional stability issues that a 170mm travel bike with an Assegai & a 190# Bro might. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> Having never ridden one, initial suppleness, front brake feels 2x as strong and much more accurate, better off-camber performance/ traction, amazing wet weather traction, looks really cool... are some of the reported benefits.
> 
> The way the offset is done on this fork might maintain stability as the fork compresses, Intend has an axle clamp that should alleviate the primary torsional concern, the damping is a known entity (RS off the shelf part), and frankly XC tires on 100-120mm travel shouldn't create much if any of the torsional stability issues that a 170mm travel bike with an Assegai & a 190# Bro might.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


I've had many, single and double. Initial suppleness is the same with decent open/semi bath lubrication. Inverted coils like Shivers were supple because...well, coil. Yes, constant lube on seals, but a decent lubrication system vaporizes the lube inside with some riding and constant action and everything remains well lubricated. You get the double-sided effect though of if a fork seal gives out on the brake side, it will guaranteed blanket the front brake/rotor with oil. I'd go as far to say that stanchion size and being able to have no binding or twisting going on is more of an effect (monster T vs shiver, or Zeb vs. almostanythingelsesingle). The torsional issue is for every and any inverted. The brake arch is simply a huge structural part of mountain bike forks. Mountain bike forks that lack the dual crowns of moto forks and their massive crown systems. I would also add much worse off-camber performance. This was one of the biggest take-aways with all of them. Being able to hold a bike off-camber relies on a torsionally stiff bike and fork. When it's not stiff, it "goes where it wants" and gets sucked into the downslope/fall-line lines. Whether it's the front end or the back end, this is one of my primary wants in a bike, being able to hold it on an off-camber line. There's just no good reason for it.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

OK thanks. To be exact it's 1495 grams, 50 grams lighter than a SID Ultimate 120. 

Like a lot of Dangerholm's builds, it's shiny standing still, but the SID Ultimate gets rave reviews. Not sure I'd take a chance on this fork. I do think the inverted fork is a good idea but as I remember the RS-1 had bad torsional issues, even with a proprietary oversized through axle. I tested it by putting the wheel between my legs and twisting--pretty egregious. 

Only the Lefty has got inverted fork legs working in production, and that's because they use a non-cylindrical design with roller bearings. It has its own reliability issues, but the Lefty has been hard to beat for performance per gram. People think it looks weird, that's the only drawback. I'd like to see a Scott Spark RC build with the Lefy Ocho 120.




RexRacerX said:


> Edit:
> 
> It's on a different page:
> 
> ...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Only the Lefty has got inverted fork legs working in production, and that's because they use a non-cylindrical design with roller bearings. It has its own reliability issues, but the Lefty has been hard to beat for performance per gram. People think it looks weird, that's the only drawback. I'd like to see a Scott Spark RC build with the Lefy Ocho 120.


Or to put it more simply, square stanchions. That literally eliminates any possible torsion effects, but it increases complexity, has lubrication issues, and so on. So yeah, square stanchions for sure would work (and I wish they would bring back headshocks for fat-bikes, just 2.5" of travel in a compact package would be so nice!).


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> 172cm
> Usually small or medium depending on reach.
> Last two Mtb ms have been medium (2016 Giant Anthem Advanced 1) and then cannondale scalpel Si Carbon 1 hi-mod medium ( because a Small (27.5) wasn’t available.
> Road bikes are both small with reach of 370 and 378 with 120mm and 110mm stems respectively
> Saddle height 73.5cm centre bb to top of saddle, saddle to bar drop 8 to 10cm depending on what it’s used for


Sounds like I am a fair bit happier with my current bike than you.

Honestly, my medium 29er is a great bike that I ride quite well. I am 165cm with a 66cm seat height. The saddle and bars are even.

I don’t have any real complaints about it. The front might tend to wander on steep technical climbs but I am going to try a slightly longer stem to see if it fixes that. But that is a really minor gripe.

But it certainly isn’t faster than the 27.5s I use to ride. There hasn’t been any significant change in my on form riding speed for years. You think that bigger wheels, slacker angles, droppers and rims that are 11mm wider would make some sort of difference.

I would love to try a 27.5 bike kitted out with modern geometry, rims and tires. I like testing equipment and I think that would be an interesting ride.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Or to put it more simply, square stanchions. That literally eliminates any possible torsion effects, but it increases complexity, has lubrication issues, and so on. So yeah, square stanchions for sure would work (and I wish they would bring back headshocks for fat-bikes, just 2.5" of travel in a compact package would be so nice!).


Ocho has a triangular shaped bearing runner at the top of the lower leg with a normal 32mm cylindrical section running in a bush at the bottom. Older Lefty’s had full length square lower legs all the way to just above the stub axle. It’s the only way to make an upside down system torsionally stiff. RS-1 design fail was the crown. It just wasn’t stiff. The legs were monsters though so fore aft stiffness was almost at Lefty level of deflection but the crown was horrible.
When done badly there’s no point in the expense and rockshox learned this and dropped it after 3 seasons.
I don’t hear good things about other upside down forks either but with two legs and a crown only two flat sides are required to make a two legged design torsionally stiffer and offset each legs flats by 90 degrees. It’s not hard to do but I haven’t seen it executed anywhere


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Hexsense said:


> Agreed, I'm using 100mm dropper and I think it's too much.
> If I buy another one, it'd be 80mm instead. 65mm would also works. But it feel weird to have dropper post to just drop it by 6.5cm.


im using 125 for xc and im not thinking to go shorter!


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## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

chomxxo said:


> OK thanks. To be exact it's 1495 grams, 50 grams lighter than a SID Ultimate


We’ll, the CC version is sub 1400. I’ll stop doing the work for you now.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Sounds like I am a fair bit happier with my current bike than you.
> 
> Honestly, my medium 29er is a great bike that I ride quite well. I am 165cm with a 66cm seat height. The saddle and bars are even.
> 
> ...


And it not like I picked one and just went with it. I tried a few bikes before setting on the Scapel. 
The rocky felt Next best as did the 2018 Giant Anthem but they all just felt big especially at the front. Great when honking out of the saddle but drifts front ends on steep climbs encountered on XCO courses. The scalpel was the most compact feeling medium that gave the best overall lap time and best feel of front end grip up and down the course.
Wider rims have had zero effect for me. Well hard to tell actually because my 26 rims weee generally 21mm wide , then 29mm Wide Lightnings to 23mm Hollowgrams to 27mm zero2 . 
the dropper has made some difference but I find myself using it less when I’m race ready and focussed.
The biggest performance improvement has been more intervals , training smart and consistently doing the right things at the right time. Higher vo2 max trumps a degree of head angle everyday


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> I don't know, it's just different from the norm. That's why I said I don't know if it's a positive or negative.
> Do we ever have to steer hard when fork is deep in the travel in XC?


Generally if I’m that deep in the travel it’s at the bottom of a drop when I’m not too keen to be turning the bars and that extra trail just helps maintain the stability of the landing. It’s the rebound where the shortening of the trail could be interesting. I’d like to ride one to see how it feels


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Very nice. Besides the usual weight weenie techniques that might not be raceable, looks like it comes down to the fork. Unfortunately not getting any info about it from the page. Do you know what it is?



There’s an article about the protoype Intend Samurai CC fork here. It has a claimed weight of 1385g and is 120mm travel at a cost of €1,949 euro:









Intend Samurai CC is the World's Lightest 120mm Fork - Eurobike 2022


The Intend Samurai CC and XC 120mm forks weigh a claimed 1,385g and 1,495g, going lighter than the RockShox SID; there's a Gravel Version too




bikerumor.com





If you fast forwards to 4 minutes 17 seconds in this GMBN Tech video from Eurobike 2022 there’s a look at that Scott Spark with Doddy talking to Dangerholm about the bike:






For the Dangerholm custom bikes (which get featured on Pinkbike among others regularly) he’s sponsored by quite a few of the component manufacturers, which is why they always seem to be Scott frames, usually Intend suspension, Trickstuff brakes etc. I think of them as a form of advertising.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

MillerC said:


> I tried to buy one of those saddles but they said my kidneys aren't worth enough.


The 3D printed saddles are gradually coming down in cost. The first models included carbon shells and carbon fibre rails but there are cheaper ones without that now.

Fizik for example have released R3 versions of their adaptive 3D printed saddles with a plastic shell and titanium rails that is down to £200 GBP. They’re available for less than that online if you shop around. Compared to the initial launch prices a few years ago they’re still expensive but are moving closer to being affordable than they were.






3D cycling saddle - Antares Versus Evo R3 Adaptive - Fizik


Antares Versus Evo R3 Adaptive: a 3D-printed bike saddle. Discover and shop road cycling saddles on the official Fizik website!




www.fizik.com


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

WR304 said:


> There’s an article about the protoype Intend Samurai CC fork here. It has a claimed weight of 1385g and is 120mm travel at a cost of €1,949 euro:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That Intend 120 CC fork would knock off a solid 280 grams (current fork is the R7 Pro) right off the front of my Spur, getting me to around 25#s with pedals, inserts, 2 cages and spares included. 
Wish I could actually ride one before plopping down $2.3k however! Those are some expensive grams!

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> That Intend 120 CC fork would knock off a solid 280 grams (current fork is the R7 Pro) right off the front of my Spur, getting me to around 25#s with pedals, inserts, 2 cages and spares included.
> Wish I could actually ride one before plopping down $2.3k however! Those are some expensive grams!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


More expensive than cocaine


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Brad said:


> More expensive than cocaine


That's how you can make people quit...take up cycling and there will be no money left for drugs!!!


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Endura have a 3D printed chamois pad for their cycling shorts too. It’s going to be in a short called the Endura 2023 Pro SL 3D Matrix EGM Bibshort. 









Endura 3D Print Chamois Pad for new Pro SL 3D Matrix EGM Bibshort - Eurobike 2022


Endura sew Carbon 3D Printed Chamois Pad into Pro SL 3D Matrix EGM Bibshort to improve pad life, increase support & reduce moisture retention




bikerumor.com





From the picture it looks as though it is literally the top of a bike saddle stuck inside your shorts.😂


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

GSPChilliwack said:


> I have an R7 Pro at 120mm. It has a wonderful combination of taking a lot of force to break away at the top of the travel, yet also sloppy when fully extended—I thought my headset was loose. Hopefully it can be resolved and it will go on my old Salsa at 80-100mm.
> 
> I have a new Pike coming. No more screwing around.


The Manitue didn't work like you hoped I take it.

I know of a really good Enduro/DH training group and at the end of each day they all swap bikes and test what everyone else is running. All of them agree that the new Ohlins suspension is special.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

At Eurobike 2022 Prologo released some new saddles, including the Prologo Scratch NDR, which is apparently designed specifically for XC racing.









Prologo adds performance XC, women's and ultralight eMTB saddles


Prologo's new saddles blend a short-length design with wider, flatter noses to create high performance options for XC MTB and women's bikes.




bikerumor.com






_“The new Scratch NDR specific to XC riding, with an anatomical center further back to match how you sit when pedaling on a cross country mountain bike.

The nose is wider to provide more support and less pressure points on climbs. The Center looks very flat, but actually has a slight dip to provide tactile feedback as to where you are on the saddle. The rear’s padding is firmer to hold the rider’s sit bones up, thereby relieving pressure in the center.”_ *Bikerumor*

This isn’t a 3D printed upper saddle, using traditional foam instead. It has a cutout in the shell underneath (pictured below). The logos and line drawn on the saddle (in white) appear to be where it’s intended for the rider to sit, the “anatomical centre” referred to by Prologo.


*What is the anatomical center? How do I find it?*
_The anatomical centre is defined as the point where the ischial bones touch the saddle. It is fundamental to mount or to set the saddle in the best way. You can find it where the saddle width is 7cm, no matter the length or the model_” *Prologo *









FAQ


The Page only can edit in LayoutHub Editor




prologo.it





I was trying to work out the features to make it XC racing specifc. The wide nose makes sense for perching on the front climbing, although if you spend most of the time sat further back on the saddle as intended it might end up being an overly wide saddle nose then, rubbing on the inner thighs when pedalling. The back of the saddle, with its extended rear and sharpish edge looks like it could be a bit sketchy though. Whenever you slide off the back that rear edge seems like it could potentially catch. Perhaps it’s envisioned to always be used with a dropper post or perhaps it’s a shelf to rest on?



*
















*


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Prologo are a sponsor of Cannondale Factory Racing.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-vallnord-xc-world-cup-2022.html



In this picture Mona Mitterwallner at Vallnord 2022 is wearing a pair of Prologo Energrip gloves.












These were launched earlier this year and feature a pressure relieving palm:

_“Prologo’s new “Energrip” gloves use the company’s patented CPC (connect, power, control) technology, give riders enhanced grip and absorb ground vibrations
…
The CPC technology’s 3D-printed polymers are placed strategically on the palm of the glove to ensure that vibrations transmitted from the bike to the body are absorbed before they transfer that bone-jarring feeling to the rider. It’s proven, too, with electromyography studies showing that the Energrip absorbs 10 per cent more vibration than gloves with a non-CPC palm” *Rouleur .cc









Prologo's revolutionary Energrip Gloves: vibration absorption and enhanced grip


The ‘Hell of the North’ is a fitting nickname for Paris-Roubaix. It earned its infernal subtitle after World War I, when the race took place in a war-torn landscape, but the description still matches. Its brutal parcours, the high risk of crashing and relentless jagged cobbled sectors all...




www.rouleur.cc




*_


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

LMN said:


> The Manitue didn't work like you hoped I take it.
> 
> I know of a really good Enduro/DH training group and at the end of each day they all swap bikes and test what everyone else is running. All of them agree that the new Ohlins suspension is special.


I just figure the Pike is a known quantity. The added bonus is that with a new Pike out, the old ones are quite cheap. I’ve already taken care of the extra grams by eating a little better. If I can get the Manitou sorted, it will be a nice fit on my favourite bike—my aging Salsa El Mariachi. There are just some rides where ”old school” geo is just the most fun to ride.

I’ve also faced the reality that 300 grams of fork weight isn’t going to make a huge difference to my “racing” performances.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Curiosidades, bicis y material del paddock de la Copa del Mundo de Vallnord


Detalles de las bicicletas, de los paddocks, de los corredores, de los equipos... un paseo por todo lo que fue la Copa del Mundo de Vallnord desde su paddock




esmtb.com


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Eurobike 2022: Even More Interesting Products from European Manufacturers - Pinkbike 

ND Suspension has a 32mm 120 travel fork that weighs sub 1000 grams.

For me, that's a solid no.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

There's a lot of weight that can be removed from the steerer and stanchion with a full carbon assembly; so far I haven't seen that and I'm surprised, it's overdue. But if anything the build with ultralight materials should be oversized, not undersized, agreed on that one. 



Suns_PSD said:


> Eurobike 2022: Even More Interesting Products from European Manufacturers - Pinkbike
> 
> ND Suspension has a 32mm 120 travel fork that weighs sub 1000 grams.
> 
> For me, that's a solid no.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Well, rockshox turned back to alloy!


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Then they haven’t been doing it right. Can’t tell me that a steerer tube made of metal isn’t a significant weight gain to carbon fiber. 100g diffference at least in the steerer, not even counting the crown. 



cycloholic said:


> Well, rockshox turned back to alloy!
> View attachment 1992302


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Then they haven’t been doing it right. Can’t tell me that a steerer tube made of metal isn’t a significant weight gain to carbon fiber. 100g diffference at least in the steerer, not even counting the crown.


Rockshox used carbon crown and steerer in the SID SL 20years ago. There was no significant weight reduction and stiffness was not as good as promised and the CSU replacement cost was 4 so high people just threw the fork away.
It’s just costs way to produce the component in carbon for a very small weight saving.

Pace Suspension used to build their forks and rear cans in carbon fibre. Pace forks used a reverse arch design with full carbon lowers and steerer crown assembly. Stanchions were alloy. They were pretty crap but looked cool. Admittedly carbon design and manufacture has moved on but so have aluminium alloys and forging. HERF is now almost an industry standard in forging technology that produces very light weight , stiff components with high fatigue life st a much lower cost than carbon fibre.
PS ace was bought by DT Swiss and the first thin they did was more to an all alloy construction.


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## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

chomxxo said:


> Then they haven’t been doing it right. Can’t tell me that a steerer tube made of metal isn’t a significant weight gain to carbon fiber. 100g diffference at least in the steerer, not even counting the crown.


Then design one the right way since you seem to believe it should be easy. RS1 showed that cf was possibly not the best material for the application. I expected sub-1300g weight 100mm forks using 32mm stanchions since the USD design would allow use of long strand fibers in a single unit (steerer/crown/uppers). Instead it was a 1600g+ fork that lacked torsional stiffness.


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Classic SRAM refusal to machine things well or to good tolerances. The +/- on their fits is shameful and lazy given the amount of money they ask for.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

joebusby said:


> Classic SRAM refusal to machine things well or to good tolerances. The +/- on their fits is shameful and lazy given the amount of money they ask for.


Huh???


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Brad said:


> Huh???


We've spoken about other stuff and if I went into the tolerance stuff over things like gxp or dub honestly it'd just be a waste of both of our time.

Suffice to say, their manufacturing QC and tolerances are all a long way below where they could be, and a long way below their competitors (eg Shimano). 

My point is that I very much doubt SRAM have chosen alu over carbon because 'it can't be made lighter' - obviously horseshit - more likely because 'we don't have the willingness or we aren't going to pay to make it carbon but not ****' (see rs1).


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

! Today's lesson: SRAM is s hit! Come on fan Boyz!!!


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

SunTour builds a carbon CSU that saves about 100 gm over aluminum for their Axon34 Werx


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Eurobike 2022: Even More Interesting Products from European Manufacturers - Pinkbike
> 
> ND Suspension has a 32mm 120 travel fork that weighs sub 1000 grams.
> 
> For me, that's a solid no.


ND Tuned suspension are a Portugese company that make a variety of aftermarket parts for suspension forks.

Some of that weight loss is from combining the damper and air spring into just one side of the fork leg.The existing ND Tuned OVR damper is given as weighing 78g so some of the weight savings could be as much as 50g saved on the damper part of the fork by as a rough guess.

A 2022 Rock Shox Sid SL 32mm diameter stanchion 100mm travel fork (lighter than the 35mm diameter 120mm Sid fork) with Race Day damper is claimed to weigh 1326g of which the right leg Race Day damper is 88g, the left leg air shaft is 42g and the Maxle Lite stealth thru axle (included in Rock Shox fork weights but may not be for the ND Tuned fork) is 38g.

A Rock Shox Sid SL 32mm 100mm fork without left leg air shaft and thru axle would be 1246g approx so that ND tuned fork would have to remove an additional 246g of material weight from the fork lowers and uppers compared to a Rock Shox Sid SL 32mm 100mm fork whilst also stretching the travel by an extra 20mm (which reduces stiffness) to reach its claimed weight and travel.

Leaving aside fork stiffness by combining both the damper and air spring into one leg it means that the air spring chambers of the fork will be smaller than they are on a standard suspension fork. That smaller air volume suggests the fork would have to be inflated to quite a high air pressure, and also that it could maybe have heat issues on longer descents, particularly as the small damper with very little oil is in there too so heat buildup is concentrated within that one fork leg. An overheating fork air spring would become overly firm and it would also affect the compression and rebound damping performance of the fork reducing control.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Smaller air room also means greater ramp of the air spring across the travel. Same thing as when using tokens.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> ND Tuned suspension are a Portugese company that make a variety of aftermarket parts for suspension forks.
> 
> Some of that weight loss is from combining the damper and air spring into just one side of the fork leg.The existing ND Tuned OVR damper is given as weighing 78g so some of the weight savings could be as much as 50g saved on the damper part of the fork by as a rough guess.
> 
> ...


and the weight of the bracing arch is also gone....


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

ccm said:


> SunTour builds a carbon CSU that saves about 100 gm over aluminum for their Axon34 Werx


but its flexy


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> Smaller air room also means greater ramp of the air spring across the travel. Same thing as when using tokens.


would you expect this for the Fox 34 SC FIT4 120mm compared to the regular Fox34 FIT4 with 120mm shaft (the only real difference is the volume in each leg and that the diameters of some components of the FIT4 are smaller in the SC)?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> ND Tuned suspension are a Portugese company that make a variety of aftermarket parts for suspension forks.
> 
> Some of that weight loss is from combining the damper and air spring into just one side of the fork leg.The existing ND Tuned OVR damper is given as weighing 78g so some of the weight savings could be as much as 50g saved on the damper part of the fork by as a rough guess.
> 
> ...


I suspect the ultra light weight model is just a marketing exercise to solicit discussion.


----------



## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Brad said:


> but its flexy


not that I can tell, and although I'm only 150lb, I ride the North Shore and regularly had to replace Fox34 CSUs
by the look of the carbon CSU it should be rigid and brittle compared to aluminum


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

ccm said:


> would you expect this for the Fox 34 SC FIT4 120mm compared to the regular Fox34 FIT4 with 120mm shaft (the only real difference is the volume in each leg and that the diameters of some components of the FIT4 are smaller in the SC)?


i would expect and have seen the oil does require more frequent draining. The regular 34 can go almost the full 120-150hrs without a damper service. The SC not so much


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

ccm said:


> would you expect this for the Fox 34 SC FIT4 120mm compared to the regular Fox34 FIT4 with 120mm shaft (the only real difference is the volume in each leg and that the diameters of some components of the FIT4 are smaller in the SC)?


Im not aware of technical info for those specific forks, but as long as the csu and the air spring is the same, the ramp rate of the air spring should be the same!


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

ccm said:


> would you expect this for the Fox 34 SC FIT4 120mm compared to the regular Fox34 FIT4 with 120mm shaft (the only real difference is the volume in each leg and that the diameters of some components of the FIT4 are smaller in the SC)?


34SC at 120mm can take up to 4 volume spacers. Factory setting: 1 volume spacer.
Regular 34 at 120mm can take up to 6 volume spacers. Factory setting: 3 volume spacer.

No volume spacer 34SC have similar air volume as regular 34 with 2 volume spacers.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Kate Courtney just mentioned that she's running Maxxis Severes, which I can't find while Googling. Brad Copeland was careful not to name them in the comments, which makes me assume it's the tyres in this link.









Spotted: Prototype, next gen XC MTB tires from Maxxis, Michelin & Schwalbe Spotted: New XC tires from Maxxis, Michelin and Schwalbe


World Cup races are the perfect places to do some data collection for prototype products, you get the full expression of athlete and product %




bikerumor.com


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The Michelins in that link look solid!


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Interesting that it has very barely any center tread.
But a near full size side knobs.

So, now there are two distinct design philosophy for fast XC tires.
-very low center knobs but significant side knobs (Aspen, Kenda Booster etc.)
-a little more center knobs but side knobs are also tiny (Specialized Fast Trak, Renegade).

How do you guys rate these two way of design? Would you prefer rounder profile with side knobs with similar height to center tread like Renegade, or semi slick center and significant side knobs for XC?


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Hexsense said:


> Interesting that it has very barely any center tread.
> But a near full size side knobs.
> 
> So, now there are two distinct design philosophy for fast XC tires.
> ...


The bigger side knobs seems the best design for me so far in limited testing.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Interesting that it has very barely any center tread.
> But a near full size side knobs.
> 
> So, now there are two distinct design philosophy for fast XC tires.
> ...


it depends.....
That Maxxis is a mud tyre so the centre treat blocks aid maintaining direction while the large side knobs provide the traction. These tyres probably wouldn't transiton very well on dry hard pack. You;d have to throw the bike side to side to get grip off the side knobs.
The Micheln approach with the rounded edge centre knobs is to reduce rolling resistance in dry conditions.
The lower centre tread in dry conditions is a proven way to make a fast tyre.

So the choice is really about where you're riding and what tread concept is best for those conditions


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Hexsense said:


> Interesting that it has very barely any center tread.
> But a near full size side knobs.
> 
> So, now there are two distinct design philosophy for fast XC tires.
> ...


I have used Schwalbe Thunder Burts front and rear, which are very minimal down the middle, with moderate side knobs. They are fast as hell on hardpack pedaling sections, and grip better than I expected. However, I do prefer a little more aggressive tread up front (Racing Ray, currently), and have a few occasions where I would like a little more rear grip (steep and loose stuff). I will continue with the T-Burt in the rear until it's burned out, and it will then get replaced by a Racing Ralph.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I like fast rolling tyres.
My favorite climbing rear is the old Renegade.
I really like the Rekon Race front and rear for speed AND cornering though. Pity they wear out so fast...


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Eric F said:


> I have used Schwalbe Thunder Burts front and rear, which are very minimal down the middle, with moderate side knobs. They are fast as hell on hardpack pedaling sections, and grip better than I expected. However, I do prefer a little more aggressive tread up front (Racing Ray, currently), and have a few occasions where I would like a little more rear grip (steep and loose stuff). I will continue with the T-Burt in the rear until it's burned out, and it will then get replaced by a Racing Ralph.


I tend to think you're on the right track. Love the Ray and Ralph combo. I think it's the best XC combo out there overall. Currently running a Rekon Race rear and it's fast, but I think the Ralph provides more climbing and braking traction. I wish they'd bring out a marginally wider version (genuine 2.4"), and that the price/availability hadn't become untenable.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

mail_liam said:


> I tend to think you're on the right track. Love the Ray and Ralph combo. I think it's the best XC combo out there overall. Currently running a Rekon Race rear and it's fast, but I think the Ralph provides more climbing and braking traction. I wish they'd bring out a marginally wider version (genuine 2.4"), and that the price/availability hadn't become untenable.


I found good deals on the Ray and Ralph on eBay. I'm really liking the Ray up front. The TBurt is doing a good enough job for me on the rear not to make putting on the Ralph an urgent issue.


----------



## mtballday (Aug 19, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> I loved my Halson Inversion fork.
> Until the tubes un-bonded from the crown...


I had one of those -- the air damper was fun.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

For the ultimate in the semi-slick vein, check out the Vittoria Terreno. More grip than you'd think!



https://www.vittoria.com/ww/en/tyres/mtb-xc/terreno



Some other notable semi-slick models, including those you mentioned: Schwalbe Thunder Burt, Maxxis Rekon Race, Maxxis Aspen, WTP Vulpine (old school, no longer produced).

I personally see no point in rounded tires with generally the same small knobs all over. I've always seen those models as lazy engineering efforts.



Hexsense said:


> Interesting that it has very barely any center tread.
> But a near full size side knobs.
> 
> So, now there are two distinct design philosophy for fast XC tires.
> ...


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

chomxxo said:


> For the ultimate in the semi-slick vein, check out the Vittoria Terreno. More grip than you'd think!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I haven't run any for a long time, but my experience with the rounded consistent small knob tyres was one of front wheel wash outs and overall frustration 😂.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Renegade T5 2.35" really go against that low knobs center, bigger side knobs design.
The 2nd row of knobs inward of the outside most knobs are taller than side knobs itself.

I think I won't use Renegade on my bike then. Not sold on the tread design.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> For the ultimate in the semi-slick vein, check out the Vittoria Terreno. More grip than you'd think!


PFP was using a Terreno Dry on the rear and a Mezcal front for some of the short tracks.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> PFP was using a Terreno Dry on the rear and a Mezcal front for some of the short tracks.


Short track doesn’t have the technical features of the full length event so the Terreno can work as it’s fast rolling but the grip , or rather lack thereof on my local trails made it an expensive mistake. On trail park trails it should be fine but add a sprinkling of gravel , high speed and anything but the smoothest technique…..no thanks

the maxxis mud tyre is similar to the Vredestein Black Panther


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Interestingly, the Onza Svelt feels a lot like the Thunder Burt but with a bit more weight and a lot more grip. Hard to find though...


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

mail_liam said:


> Kate Courtney just mentioned that she's running Maxxis Severes, which I can't find while Googling. Brad Copeland was careful not to name them in the comments, which makes me assume it's the tyres in this link.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw this Maxxis/Syncros wheel/tire combo back in February on Kate's bike. Brad let me take a closer look at it and the tire feels/looks a lot like the Conti XKing, but with a bit more spacing on the knobs.


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

mail_liam said:


> Kate Courtney just mentioned that she's running Maxxis Severes, which I can't find while Googling. Brad Copeland was careful not to name them in the comments, which makes me assume it's the tyres in this link.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I mean that looks like a Vittoria Barzo clone which has won a couple of rainbow stripes (Sarrou, Absalon, et al)


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> PFP was using a Terreno Dry on the rear and a Mezcal front for some of the short tracks.


That was my combo for our local short track series this spring, helped me stay on the lead lap all season and felt like free speed. Couple races got muddy but nothing was gripping so I didn't suffer relative to the competition (we were all slow).


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

pinkpowa said:


> I mean that looks like a Vittoria Barzo clone which has won a couple of rainbow stripes (Sarrou, Absalon, et al)


Tire tread design is probably pretty well developed technology. For mountain bikes the innovation is probably in compound, size and casing structure.


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

LMN said:


> Tire tread design is probably pretty well developed technology. For mountain bikes the innovation is probably in compound, size and casing structure.


I think you're right, aside from siping/stepping of the knobs they are largely similar for similar applications (Barzo/XKing/Maxxis Severe all very similar). I talked to Ken @ Vittoria a good bit when he was in town and they're definitely exploring some interesting things with casing, compounds and sizes. Their "downcountry" tire the Syerra is a good example of this (first 60tpi in the lineup, bead to bead protection, and some different stuff done with knob shape) and on the road side their new Corsa N.EXT is a high tpi nylon version of their TDF winning cotton tires to blend durability with performance (not a roadie but sounds promising). They've actually built a testing facility at their Italian campus to see how this stuff actually works (i.e. not just a steel drum)





Vittoria builds a bike park offering a number of facilities for testing and developing tyres


Opening to the public in September this year, the park aims to offer the cycling world a one-of-a-kind testing facility and proving ground. The park will surround the tyre manufacturers' headquarters near Milan, Italy, to foster innovation in the development of bicycle tyres.




off.road.cc


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

mail_liam said:


> I tend to think you're on the right track. Love the Ray and Ralph combo. I think it's the best XC combo out there overall.


For me... yes and no. This combo is probably fastest rolling combi with best grip. But huge downside for me is, that they are super fragile. Comparing them to Maxxis (Ikon rear, Rekon front), or Vittoria (Mezcal rear, Barzo front), they are certainly better and with whole lot of predictable grip, but Maxxis or Vittoria are simply indestructable for me, while with Racing Ralph/Racing Ray combo, I have feeling I need to ride way more careful, if I don't want punctures.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Latest years schwalbes has nothing in common with the older fragile schwalbes.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

cycloholic said:


> Latest years schwalbes has nothing in common with the older fragile schwalbes.


I'm not talking about those around or even under 400g Scwalbes from 10 years ago, but more or less current Racing Ralph/Racing Ray combo... like 2 years old tires when I was running them for last time. I didn't run this years, but I don't think they changed much in last 2 years, but of course I can be wrong about this.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

The Schwalbe tyres are the lightest of the bunch. Almost 150gr per tyre lighter than equivalent vittoria. Less rubber = more punctures


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Conti are lighter😇


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> The Schwalbe tyres are the lightest of the bunch. Almost 150gr per tyre lighter than equivalent vittoria. Less rubber = more punctures


Isn’t that simple but accurate math.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

It's true if all the other variables are the same!


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Isn’t that simple but accurate math.


Granted puncture protection belts, the number of plies and the casing tpi plays a role in puncture resistance but amount of rubber plays a significant role in the sealing of punctures and also the overall weight of the tyre.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

La nueva Scott Spark Tuned de Dangerholm: bielas de titanio impresas en 3D... pero no es un "peso pluma"


Dangerholm ha montado una bici trail partiendo de la base de la Scott Spark Tuned. Con 120 mm de recorrido delante y detrás, este montaje no está centrado en el peso




esmtb.com


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

The Vittoria tyres I had were impressively light for a better protected Schwalbe. The rubber is just hard though and the grip not as good.

I've run both race and black Ray and Ralph consistently and never, ever had an issue. I think they earned a reputation years ago they have struggled to shake.

Maxxis seem like a good rubber and protection but don't have as nice tread pattern options (in my opinion) and are surprisingly heavy for what they are.

I wish they'd do the Ray/Ralph in a 2.4". I'm running Rekon/Rekon Race currently while Schwalbe are unavailable, and to try the WT life.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Schwalbe offers different weight/ protection values even in their XC tires. If you want an 800 gram tire they give you the choice.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

pinkpowa said:


> I think you're right, aside from siping/stepping of the knobs they are largely similar for similar applications (Barzo/XKing/Maxxis Severe all very similar). I talked to Ken @ Vittoria a good bit when he was in town and they're definitely exploring some interesting things with casing, compounds and sizes. Their "downcountry" tire the Syerra is a good example of this (first 60tpi in the lineup, bead to bead protection, and some different stuff done with knob shape) and on the road side their new Corsa N.EXT is a high tpi nylon version of their TDF winning cotton tires to blend durability with performance (not a roadie but sounds promising). They've actually built a testing facility at their Italian campus to see how this stuff actually works (i.e. not just a steel drum)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ironically the Syerra is pretty awful with below average traction, fragile, & average rolling speed for a tire of this sort.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

This looks like an interesting front option:

CROSS TLR / E-Bike 25 ready – Wolfpack-Tires.com


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> This looks like an interesting front option:
> 
> CROSS TLR / E-Bike 25 ready – Wolfpack-Tires.com


I happen to have it.













Only front slide once. But it's on the pile of leaf, so I don't think I can blame the tire.


Currently Wolfpack Cross is off the bike because I'm about to test Kenda Karma 2 Pro TR 2.4" which is 680g and look more like "Forekaster Race", with more open area for mud shredding.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Suns_PSD said:


> This looks like an interesting front option:
> 
> CROSS TLR / E-Bike 25 ready – Wolfpack-Tires.com


That does look interesting, but I can't see if it has any protection?

It's also be nice to know how they measure up in the real world. Impressive weights (usually means undersized like the Kenda etc 🤷‍♂️)


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Hexsense said:


> I happen to have it.
> View attachment 1993759
> View attachment 1993758
> 
> ...


Do you have the Wolfpack 2.4"? Did you measure it when it was installed?


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Wolfpack Cross 2.4 732g
Measured width 61mm

Kenda Karma 2 Pro 2.4 TR 680g
Measured width 59mm

This is on 29.9mm IW rim.

Wolfpack Cross 2.4 sidewall is noticeably thicker than Kenda Karma 2 Pro 2.4 TR
Wolfpack doesn't need a separated puncture protection layer. The rubber compound itself is more puncture resistant than usual, hence the compound name "ToGuard".


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Very intriguing. 

Interestingly their patterns are all quite open. Not that that's a bad thing at all. I was just expecting the "Race" to be a Semi Slick of some sort.

Are you running any of the Wolfpack rears?


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

I had Wolfpack Speed on the rear too.
2.2 first then 2.4 as I gave away 2.2 to a friend. The 2.4 not only have wider casing but also taller knobs.
They work very well at low tire pressure. Lost grip sometime in wet but I think it's normal for race tire with "Speed" in the name.
It is ultra durable IMO. I commute to and from the trail on road, so the tire roll on hard concrete 15 miles a week in addition to trail mileage. After 8 months, The tire looks better than half worn. Sipe on the knobs are still clearly visible.

It is also currently off the bike as I'm about to test Kenda Booster Pro in the rear. I'd be able to judge Kenda combo vs Wolfpack combo after a few months of testing Kenda.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Booster pro SCR 2.4 is a very nice training tyre. It’s hard wearing but requires a couple of psi more than other 2.4 tyres to prevent pinch flats.
Grip is respectable but it rolls fast almost like a. Semi slick.


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## rp86 (9 mo ago)

I've been running Pirelli Scorpion XC M front / XC RC rear 2.4 combo for a couple of months. Pretty happy, feels more predictable than Rekon/Rekon race I was using before.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

rp86 said:


> I've been running Pirelli Scorpion XC M front / XC RC rear 2.4 combo for a couple of months. Pretty happy, feels more predictable than Rekon/Rekon race I was using before.


Are they true to size? They look nice, though small knobs.


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## TazMini (Jun 21, 2019)

rp86 said:


> I've been running Pirelli Scorpion XC M front / XC RC rear 2.4 combo for a couple of months. Pretty happy, feels more predictable than Rekon/Rekon race I was using before.


On my list to try when current tires give out. Been running Pirelli gravel tires and started eye balling their MTB offerings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rp86 (9 mo ago)

No calipers sorry, but eyeballing with tape measure puts the M casing at 60mm (~2.36") on i30 rim.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

mail_liam said:


> Maxxis seem like a good rubber and protection but don't have as nice tread pattern options (in my opinion) and are surprisingly heavy for what they are.


Agree, i never felt super happy for any of maxxis, imo they just have good marketing ☺
I was racing for some years with ikons (btw what happened to those? Nobody uses them? At Mvdp bike was the last to see them) those where quite good but super slow(amazing how much loud they were on a tarmac). 
About racing ray and Ralph, i was changing them back and forth with xking and rking combo(i was happy with both combos), the last year I'm stucked with the contis and before some weeks i put back the schwalbes and i felt like they have a limitation when cornering than contis. I hope this prototypes of jenny and pidcock will be soon in production (they look bigger).


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I provided some feedback on the Pirelli Scorpion XC RC 2.4in the race tyre thread but will add some nuggets here too.

Vs the 2.2, the 2.4 measures the same width on a 27mm IW rim @59mm(2.2) vs 60mm(2.4). The difference is the height of the tyre above the rim. The top of the tyre is more round than the 2.2 which is still pretty much an accurate circle segment but the 2.4 looks slightly more round. It stands 3mm taller and about 1mm wider.
Now the cornering grip is quite different in favour of the 2.4 tyre. It just transitions across the the entire row of tread better than the 2.2 whist have the same tread pattern. Note I'm comparing lite vs lite, not Prowall vs Lite.
So far I've been using it all season for XCO and am "super happy"  with them


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

I was thinking to try XC RC 2.4 lite eventhough i have allergy to light version of tires but i havent found any in stock!
Also another tire i would like to try is those fast tracks. It happens all the people i met with those to turn exceptional good!


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> I was thinking to try XC RC 2.4 lite eventhough i have allergy to light version of tires but i havent found any in stock!
> Also another tire i would like to try is those fast tracks. It happens all the people i met with those to turn exceptional good!


I've damaged two XC RC 2.4. The rear i Pinch flatted twice on the same ride.
The front run over a porcupine. I remove about 6 quills from it, plugged each hole with a mushroom plug and put a tube in to make sure they bonded properly, They're back in service as training tyres for the past 2.5months. I'm also happy with the wear rate. I've got about 6 of them in my spares box, 4 used and two brand new tyres for later in the season.
Its wet here, so I'm keen to throw the Kenda Karma 2's on again and get reacquainted.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Brad, no durability issues with the lite versions?

Edit: nevermind. I posted at the exact same time as your post describing the damage. Thanks


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

tick_magnet said:


> Brad, no durability issues with the lite versions?


see post above yours (#886)

Further to pot 886, in terms of tyre pressure the Lite versions respnd very well to 24psi rear an 22psi front for my current winter weight of 71.5kg. Race weight is 68-69kg then I drop it 1psi front and rear.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Here are some bike checks from the Snowshoe World Cup round: 

Christopher Blevins Specialized Epic:









World Cup Bike Check: Chris Blevin's World Champion S-Works Epic mud machine


Racing a World Cup in the USA brings out the animal in Chris Blevins rocketed to a beyond convincing Short Track win in Snowshoe, WV USA




bikerumor.com





Gwendalyn Gibson’s Norco Revolver:









Snowshoe Bike Check: Gwendalyn Gibson's XCC World Cup race-winning Norco Revolver


Gwendalyn Gibson crossed the line in first place at the Short Track race in Snowshoe, check out her bike under all the mud!




bikerumor.com





.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> La nueva Scott Spark Tuned de Dangerholm: bielas de titanio impresas en 3D... pero no es un "peso pluma"
> 
> 
> Dangerholm ha montado una bici trail partiendo de la base de la Scott Spark Tuned. Con 120 mm de recorrido delante y detrás, este montaje no está centrado en el peso
> ...


Dangerholm must have had more of those new Scott Spark frames to work on than some entire countries at this point!


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Some more bike checks: 

Evie Richards World Champion stripes Trek Supercaliber:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-evie-richards-trek-supercaliber.html



Cameron Mason’s Specialized Epic in Trinity Racing colours:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-cameron-masons-specialized-epic.html


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

WR304 said:


> Prologo are a sponsor of Cannondale Factory Racing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was watching the wet and muddy 2022 Snowshoe World Cup men’s XC race on Red Bull TV and a lot of the riders were wearing these Prologo Energrip gloves. They’re easily identifiable by the large logos.










I got myself a pair of the long finger Prologo Energrip gloves to try so here’s a quick review after a few rides: 



The glove is super light. The Size large is right for me, the thumb is a little on the short side. It’s quite a tight fit to get on and off, which is good for dexterity and avoiding any bunching under the palm when wearing but requires care to not pull any stitching out when putting on or off.

The upper portion of the glove has a massive Prologo logo on it. This is highly visible but isn’t printed into the glove. It’s a decal like the ones you see on cycling shorts (that have a habit of falling off or cracking when washed in a washing machine). I’ve already decided to never wash these gloves in a machine. Hand wash only as those logos are sure to peel off otherwise.

The 3d printed pad on the palm is very thin and made up of lots of small individual stalks that stick up, rather than any kind of foam that compresses. It’s much closer in feel to an unpadded glove than a padded glove, which isn’t a bad thing. My hands have been ok when riding, not uncomfortable or sore, although the padding is minimal.

On the thumb and forefinger of the glove are rubber grippers, rather than just fabric. These are quite strange because they’re fantastic in the dry, it’s easy to pull a water bottle out of a cage for example with a secure grip and no slipping.

On Saturday evening I was out riding and it rained however. What had been nice grippy rubber grippers on the glove forefinger turned to slippery ice! I have Shimano Deore XT brake levers, which are anodised aluminium, and the grippers on the ends of the forefinger of the glove had so little grip my fingers were sliding off the brake lever! Fortunately the SRAM AXS plastic shift paddle wasn’t as bad. I was thinking about that whilst watching the World Cup race the day after…


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Alessandra Keller’s Thomus Lightrider from Snowshoe 2022:









Snowshoe Bike Check: Alessandra Kellers' World Cup-winning Thomus Lightrider WC XC MTB


Epic battles we hoped for emerged from the rain-soaked trails of wild, wonderful West Virginia — racing and spectating were both World Class




bikerumor.com





It’s mentioned in the article that the bike was remarkably clean post race. There was a duct tape strip mud deflector on the downtube (that was partially falling off at the end and is completely missing in the last pictures) but the bike probably had some anti stick polish or coating applied to keep the mud off as well.










David Valero’s BH Lynx from Snowshoe 2022:









World Cup Bike Check: David Valero race-winning Serranos' BH Lynx Race EVO w/ Chaoyang tires?


The UCI Cross-Country Mountain Bike World Cup at Snowshoe, was not for the faint of heart, whether riding, spectating or watching from home.




bikerumor.com





In the article are photos of the tyres he used for the Sunday mud race too. The picture below is from the Friday short track.


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

You can achieve that by coating the bike in silicone spray. I've done it on wheel sidewalls before to reduce adhesion and you end up carrying a lot less excess weight as it sheds.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

joebusby said:


> You can achieve that by coating the bike in silicone spray. I've done it on wheel sidewalls before to reduce adhesion and you end up carrying a lot less excess weight as it sheds.


And the bike stays nice and shiny


----------



## rp86 (9 mo ago)

Any recommended products for this use?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

rp86 said:


> Any recommended products for this use?


There's a few that can work.

one common type is garage door cable lube that is silicone oil based.
Other products are ethylene glycol based, like the type used for polishing and cleaning motor vehicle dash.

i generally just spray some garage door silicone spray onto a rag and wipe the areas where umd is likely to collect and leave it to dr. It won't remain there permanently but getting anything else to adhere to that area again will require cleaning with Isopropyl alcohol and clean rags. Silicone oil is quite tenacious.
Wurth is one of the products I've used, currently have CRC Silicone Food Grade in the tool box.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Funiture polish and spray foam tire cleaner are my go to. The tire cleaner is the key thing though, nothing like shiny sidewalls to make a bike pop.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

was just busy with shining up my sidewalls after my ride LOL


----------



## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

Ugh. I can’t get a good shine on the tan walls.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More and more Quarq (Black Box prototype) power meters out in the field. Not just Nino and Kate from the beginning of the year in Brazil. Vittoria tires have had some great results in the wet the past two weeks. Schwalbe also. BMC jerseys have no zip at the front or back. Nino raced on Maxxis Rekon Race...Kate with Aspen.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Ulloa’s pedal issue must be due to a hard pedal strike. I’ve seen a few of those new Shimano 12speed cranks fail when the pedals hit rocks. It can happen to any crank but there just seems to be failures since they went 12s.

Emily’s luck well what luck? Bruised cracks dor broken rib(s) at Canadian nationals, then two crashes this last weekend…. I hope she gets out of this phase quickly because she’s looking to have good form.
Tyre wise a new set of Vittoria Mezcal or Barzo always grips really well even in the wet. Put some wear on them and the grip disappears like ice cubes in the desert


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Brad said:


> Ulloa’s pedal issue must be due to a hard pedal strike. I’ve seen a few of those new Shimano 12speed cranks fail when the pedals hit rocks. It can happen to any crank but there just seems to be failures since they went 12s.
> 
> Emily’s luck well what luck? Bruised cracks dor broken rib(s) at Canadian nationals, then two crashes this last weekend…. I hope she gets out of this phase quickly because she’s looking to have good form.
> Tyre wise a new set of Vittoria Mezcal or Barzo always grips really well even in the wet. Put some wear on them and the grip disappears like ice cubes in the desert


Pedal strike sounds likely. I've seen that failure in the wild as well. I had a similar (but different) issue a few weeks ago - hard pedal strike led to a popping sound on the drive side under pedaling load, then a creak, then eventually a loud "pop" that was my drive side bottom bracket shell (Wheels Mfg) snapping in two. The external, visible part (BSA frame) separated from the threaded part. Crazy.

I raced in the wet on a new setup yesterday - Cross King Protection front, Race King rear. The rear broke loose a few times in corners, as expected, and predictably, but gave good climbing traction. The front was surprisingly excellent in the wet. As in I should have trusted it more the first lap; I took it easy in the turns at first but by the finish was railing in the wet, no issues. I hadn't tried that tire since the X-King days and this one is 100% better. Rolls fast as well.


----------



## EricTV (Jun 11, 2020)

tommyrod74 said:


> Pedal strike sounds likely. I've seen that failure in the wild as well. I had a similar (but different) issue a few weeks ago - hard pedal strike led to a popping sound on the drive side under pedaling load, then a creak, then eventually a loud "pop" that was my drive side bottom bracket shell (Wheels Mfg) snapping in two. The external, visible part (BSA frame) separated from the threaded part. Crazy.
> 
> I raced in the wet on a new setup yesterday - Cross King Protection front, Race King rear. The rear broke loose a few times in corners, as expected, and predictably, but gave good climbing traction. The front was surprisingly excellent in the wet. As in I should have trusted it more the first lap; I took it easy in the turns at first but by the finish was railing in the wet, no issues. I hadn't tried that tire since the X-King days and this one is 100% better. Rolls fast as well.


I've done this exact same thing my Wheels MFG BSA BB about 3 months ago.


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## AndrewHardtail (Nov 2, 2021)

Brad said:


> Ulloa’s pedal issue must be due to a hard pedal strike. I’ve seen a few of those new Shimano 12speed cranks fail when the pedals hit rocks. It can happen to any crank but there just seems to be failures since they went 12s


What’s the failure mode? Does the threaded insert tear out of the crank or does the pedal spindle tear out of the threads?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

On the Shimano cranks it’s not an insert. The theeaded section is part of the forged structure. The threads shear from the impact.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

tommyrod74 said:


> I raced in the wet on a new setup yesterday - Cross King Protection front, Race King rear. The rear broke loose a few times in corners, as expected, and predictably, but gave good climbing traction. The front was surprisingly excellent in the wet. As in I should have trusted it more the first lap; I took it easy in the turns at first but by the finish was railing in the wet, no issues. I hadn't tried that tire since the X-King days and this one is 100% better. Rolls fast as well.


Thanks for the update on the Cross King Protection. I may try that tire as a front in the future.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Looks like new brake levers on Nino's bike.

They look a lot like updated first generation Guide Ultimates that are missing the "swing link" pivot pin.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

tommyrod74 said:


> I raced in the wet on a new setup yesterday - Cross King Protection front, Race King rear. The rear broke loose a few times in corners, as expected, and predictably, but gave good climbing traction. The front was surprisingly excellent in the wet. As in I should have trusted it more the first lap; I took it easy in the turns at first but by the finish was railing in the wet, no issues. I hadn't tried that tire since the X-King days and this one is 100% better. Rolls fast as well.


Which width of the Cross King were you riding? I'm debating between the 2.2" and the 2.3" to go with my 2.2 rear Race King.


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## pk1 (Mar 25, 2010)

i've been interested in these gloves since they were announced some months back but have found very little in the way of real world reviews. how did you find them compared to a typical moderately padded glove?
i assume the claim "the CPC used by the Energrip absorb 10% more vibrations than a non-CPC palm" is comparing to a completely unpadded palm so not that impressive but if you can get the dampening of padding with a more minimalist thickness that could be a win.



WR304 said:


> I was watching the wet and muddy 2022 Snowshoe World Cup men’s XC race on Red Bull TV and a lot of the riders were wearing these Prologo Energrip gloves. They’re easily identifiable by the large logos.
> 
> View attachment 1993918
> 
> ...


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I've got a Prologo CPC saddle and the grip is brilliant.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

brentos said:


> Looks like new brake levers on Nino's bike.
> 
> They look a lot like updated first generation Guide Ultimates that are missing the "swing link" pivot pin.
> 
> View attachment 1994698



Looks like the new Level or what ever they're going to call the new lightweight XC brake as Guide G2 is the trail brake


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Stonerider said:


> Thanks for the update on the Cross King Protection. I may try that tire as a front in the future.


You're welcome. Be aware this is the 2.2" I'm running, it's not a big tire. Still works great.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

brentos said:


> Which width of the Cross King were you riding? I'm debating between the 2.2" and the 2.3" to go with my 2.2 rear Race King.


2.2". It is visually very close to the 2.2" Race King in volume, tread is a little wider (obviously). I expect it to stretch out a bit over time and gain some volume.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I have the 2.3 cross king as a front. It's basically a better Barzo. I ran it with a Mezcal for a very very muddy race.

It's a great tire.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

On a related note to the discussion about Ulloa's pedal, has anyone used SRAM carbon cranks (X1/XO1 etc)? A mate is looking at a bike with carbon SRAM cranks, it seems like a heck of a good bike, but Levy and the PB crew had some pretty major issues with carbon cranks and I am not sure if that carries across to all brands and XC?


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

mail_liam said:


> On a related note to the discussion about Ulloa's pedal, has anyone used SRAM carbon cranks (X1/XO1 etc)? A mate is looking at a bike with carbon SRAM cranks, it seems like a heck of a good bike, but Levy and the PB crew had some pretty major issues with carbon cranks and I am not sure if that carries across to all brands and XC?


I have no issue so far.
Though, mine is not technically an official Sram XX1 crankset combo.

Mine is Quarq XX1 crank arms with 8 bolt hole, plus Alugear direct mount chainring for 8 bolt.
I can't just buy 3 bolt Sram XX1 crank because they don't make it in 165mm length anymore. And I'm too fixed on the idea that I want XX1 (not X01) cranks and I want it in 165mm length. So I land on Quarq XX1 165mm with aftermarket chainring.


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## utmtbrider (Dec 8, 2020)

mail_liam said:


> On a related note to the discussion about Ulloa's pedal, has anyone used SRAM carbon cranks (X1/XO1 etc)? A mate is looking at a bike with carbon SRAM cranks, it seems like a heck of a good bike, but Levy and the PB crew had some pretty major issues with carbon cranks and I am not sure if that carries across to all brands and XC?


Sram carbon cranks are pretty much as reliable as any other carbon crank on the market. I have used them for about two years now with no issues.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mail_liam said:


> On a related note to the discussion about Ulloa's pedal, has anyone used SRAM carbon cranks (X1/XO1 etc)? A mate is looking at a bike with carbon SRAM cranks, it seems like a heck of a good bike, but Levy and the PB crew had some pretty major issues with carbon cranks and I am not sure if that carries across to all brands and XC?


Anyone?

I've used these cranks for years in all kinds of applications. I've killed the RF next easy, that design is crap. The SRAM are a different design, with a metal skeleton and CF bonded outside. This is extremely tough IME. I've beat the hell out of XX1 and X01 cranks while next have failed within a season.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

The major issue they had was with Praxis I think.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

mail_liam said:


> On a related note to the discussion about Ulloa's pedal, has anyone used SRAM carbon cranks (X1/XO1 etc)? A mate is looking at a bike with carbon SRAM cranks, it seems like a heck of a good bike, but Levy and the PB crew had some pretty major issues with carbon cranks and I am not sure if that carries across to all brands and XC?


I use XX1 cranks on one bike and XTR cranks on another. I'd pick the XX1 carbon cranks over the XTR if I were buying right now.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I haven’t had an issue with my Stylo Carbon which is basically an X01 . Raced it for 4 years and it’s taken abuse and survived more than any of my XTR cranks did


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Hexsense said:


> I have no issue so far.
> Though, mine is not technically an official Sram XX1 crankset combo.
> 
> Mine is Quarq XX1 crank arms with 8 bolt hole, plus Alugear direct mount chainring for 8 bolt.
> I can't just buy 3 bolt Sram XX1 crank because they don't make it in 165mm length anymore. And I'm too fixed on the idea that I want XX1 (not X01) cranks and I want it in 165mm length. So I land on Quarq XX1 165mm with aftermarket chainring.


I bought a set of those cranks for cheap on E-Bay. They only weighed like 370 grams but then I couldn't locate a mountain bike sized chain ring for them. I was totally confused about what I had purchased.

My wife has a set of Rotor Kaptic cf 165mm cranks (sp?). Those are the nicest cranks I've ever seen. They feel super rigid as well, even under my weight. I think they came in around 380 grams. The proprietary chain ring probably added a few grams however but it is also really nice.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I currently use X01 cranks with Stages PM and Eggbeaters 11. I've had a few pedal strikes with no issues at all.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> but then I couldn't locate a mountain bike sized chain ring for them. I was totally confused about what I had purchased.


Now you know where to find it. 
Boost, round rings from 26t to 38t








Chainring direct mount 1-speed narrow-wide ROUND BOOST for SRAM 8 holes MTB (3mm offset) - ALUGEAR


ALUGEAR Chainring 1x Direct Mount Narrow Wide Round SRAM 8 bolts MTB BOOST Quarq 8 holes chainring 1 speed




alugear.com




Boost, oval rings from 26t to 38t








Chainring 1-speed direct mount narrow-wide Oval for SRAM 8-bolts MTB Boost Beach Ball 3 mm offset


Chainring 1-speed direct mount narrow-wide Oval for SRAM 8-bolts MTB Boost Beach Ball 3 mm offset




alugear.com


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

pk1 said:


> i've been interested in these gloves since they were announced some months back but have found very little in the way of real world reviews. how did you find them compared to a typical moderately padded glove?
> i assume the claim "the CPC used by the Energrip absorb 10% more vibrations than a non-CPC palm" is comparing to a completely unpadded palm so not that impressive but if you can get the dampening of padding with a more minimalist thickness that could be a win.


I've tried to take a picture of what the Prologo Energrip padding looks like close up. It's rows of small rubbery hollow spikes. The padding is variable thickness, being thickest under the outside of the palm and then much thinner across the front areas of the palm just behing the fingers.










Here's a picture showing the layout of this padding compared to two different styles of mtb gloves for comparison. I had a look through my collection of old gloves to find some other layouts.











On the left is a Specialized Grail which has light grey padding on the centre of the palm but then the rest of the palm is completely unpadded. The middle glove is Prologo Energrip and then the right glove is a Specialized BG padded glove from a few years ago. Although it looks like a circular shape the thickest padding on the Prologo Energrip glove is in much the same place as the traditional padded glove.

This padding is where the main nerves to the hand are. The Ulnar nerve runs down the outside of the hand and is the one that can make your little finger go numb when riding.












The median nerve is more the middle of the hand and the thumb. It tends to be pins and needles with pressure there.











The downside of lots of padding on the glove palm is that it affects feel and feedback through the bars but its also a bit like an overly soft bike saddle in that thick padding isn't necessarily better for relieving pressure either. That was the rationale behind the Specialized Grail gloves pictured above where they left the traditional areas unpadded and filled in the palm for a consistent contact across the handlebar grip.

The Prologo Energrip glove padding does do quite a good job of relieving pressure I think. I'd get more numbness along the outside of my hand and little finger wearing the Specialized Grail gloves (unpadded at that point) than I have been with the Prologo Energrip gloves. I tend to be fairly prone to hand issues from riding and these gloves haven't been bad at all for my hands so far.

The dexterity is good too in dry conditions and now I've had them for a few weeks they've stretched slightly so are easier to get on and off. It's also been a heatwave, warm and dry, so no finger slip issues on the finger grippers. It's still there though as all it takes is to lightly wet the finger gripper and they're slippery straight away! Possibly the outer layer of the finger gripper will wear down and grip a little with more use.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Brad said:


> Ulloa’s pedal issue must be due to a hard pedal strike. I’ve seen a few of those new Shimano 12speed cranks fail when the pedals hit rocks. It can happen to any crank but there just seems to be failures since they went 12s.
> 
> Emily’s luck well what luck? Bruised cracks dor broken rib(s) at Canadian nationals, then two crashes this last weekend…. I hope she gets out of this phase quickly because she’s looking to have good form.
> Tyre wise a new set of Vittoria Mezcal or Barzo always grips really well even in the wet. Put some wear on them and the grip disappears like ice cubes in the desert


It was his right hand pedal and that was the pedal closest to that big rock in the slow speed section that the riders were having to weave through shown every lap on the Red Bull TV replay. Quite a few riders hit that rock with their pedals. I think that was possibly where it happened.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Brad said:


> Looks like the new Level or what ever they're going to call the new lightweight XC brake as Guide G2 is the trail brake


So there are many signs that Sram is cooking some big XC refreshment.
-"Different" Sram XX1 cassette prototyped earlier this year, and this prototype Sram brake lever.
-Quarq Prototype on many pro bikes
-Rockshox skipped Sid update this year, when they update pretty much the entire range, all new.

Hmm, I smell Sram, Quarq, Rockshox product announcement simultaneously. Maybe even Time pedal that Sram bought earlier last year.


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## utmtbrider (Dec 8, 2020)

Hexsense said:


> So there are many signs that Sram is cooking some big XC refreshment.
> -"Different" Sram XX1 cassette prototyped earlier this year, and this prototype Sram brake lever.
> -Quarq Prototype on many pro bikes
> -Rockshox skipped Sid update this year, when they update pretty much the entire range, all new.
> ...


Not to mention that prototype Axs derailleur and flat top chain we saw a couple pages back.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

mail_liam said:


> On a related note to the discussion about Ulloa's pedal, has anyone used SRAM carbon cranks (X1/XO1 etc)? A mate is looking at a bike with carbon SRAM cranks, it seems like a heck of a good bike, but Levy and the PB crew had some pretty major issues with carbon cranks and I am not sure if that carries across to all brands and XC?


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

LMN said:


> View attachment 1994825


Oof! Has that just happened?

That's gnarly! Hopefully no injuries when that happened.


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Ones likeliness to break a crank is more related to the life the crank has lived and or any niche bit of QC than it is some kind of basic brand dogma.

I've broken a crank - I tore a campagnolo super record arm off the alu short spindle and ended up in the middle of two lanes of traffic. It would be pretty bone stupid of me to come to the conclusion that all campy carbon is ****


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

joebusby said:


> Ones likeliness to break a crank is more related to the life the crank has lived and or any niche bit of QC than it is some kind of basic brand dogma.
> 
> I've broken a crank - I tore a campagnolo super record arm off the alu short spindle and ended up in the middle of two lanes of traffic. It would be pretty bone stupid of me to come to the conclusion that all campy carbon is ****


Agreed
Just Google crank failures and you’ll see many are due to crash damage but one brand has a problem with cranks falling apart and there more than a few bending too easily or pedal threads stripping or cranks arms cracking.
Any product can fail since QC cannot catch every defect, just statistically reduce the likelihood of that defect reaching the market.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

LMN said:


> View attachment 1994825


I broke an XX1 crank like that about 4 years ago. Too many rock bashes.
Replaced with Eewings. Great investment on the AM bike. 
Still run XX1s on the DC bike as they are light at a fair price. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

mail_liam said:


> Oof! Has that just happened?
> 
> That's gnarly! Hopefully no injuries when that happened.


Snapped off on a jump.

pretty good ankle injury.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

joebusby said:


> Ones likeliness to break a crank is more related to the life the crank has lived and or any niche bit of QC than it is some kind of basic brand dogma.
> 
> I've broken a crank - I tore a campagnolo super record arm off the alu short spindle and ended up in the middle of two lanes of traffic. It would be pretty bone stupid of me to come to the conclusion that all campy carbon is ****


I think it depends. With Shimano cranks the bonded Ultegra road cranks falling apart is dangerous and ongoing. I’ve been out on road club rides and seen that happen to people there!









Shimano denies design problem with Hollowtech cranks despite reports of cracked arms


Component giant says its engineers are trying to find out if there is a specific cause of crank failures




road.cc





With mountain bike cranks Ethirteen carbon cranks have a bad reputation as do Praxxis carbon cranks eg:





__





Snapped carbon crank


Hi all, has anyone had any issues with breaking carbon cranks on their e-bikes? I have a new 2019 S-Works and within the first 20 mins of riding it, for the very first time, the end snapped off the end of the crank following a minor pedal strike. I was riding up a mild gradient that was winding...




www.emtbforums.com







https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinkbike-poll-have-you-broken-carbon-fiber-cranks.html


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

This is where i prefer the extra security of the foam filled X01 / GX Carbon/ Truvativ Stylo Carbon crank. 
It’s just that extra bit tougher in a key component


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

WR304 said:


> I think it depends. With Shimano cranks the bonded Ultegra road cranks falling apart is dangerous and ongoing. I’ve been out on road club rides and seen that happen to people there!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everything E13 makes is of poor quality. Cranks, cassettes, tires, wheels, etc.


I've learned and am done with that company. 

Great warranty service however!

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Brad said:


> This is where i prefer the extra security of the foam filled X01 / GX Carbon/ Truvativ Stylo Carbon crank.
> It’s just that extra bit tougher in a key component


Why do you consider foam filled extra security? As stated before, I use X01 cranks, but for budget reasons...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Cranks failing is really disappointing. They should be a non-failure part period. You should be able to ride a set of cranks until the end of time.

I absolutely hate it when stuff breaks on my bike. I keep really good care of my bike and tend to be very conservative with my parts choices but I still have random failures once in a while.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

LMN said:


> Cranks failing is really disappointing. They should be a non-failure part period. You should be able to ride a set of cranks until the end of time.
> 
> I absolutely hate it when stuff breaks on my bike. I keep really good care of my bike and tend to be very conservative with my parts choices but I still have random failures once in a while.


For something that routinely gets smashed into rocks, I find that woefully optimistic. That's like riding a rim with no tire and expecting it'll not get dented.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Jayem said:


> For something that routinely gets smashed into rocks, I find that woefully optimistic. That's like riding a rim with no tire and expecting it'll not get dented.


I have been heavily involved in the cycling for 30 years now and honestly I have only ever seen two cranks fail from smashing against rocks. All failures have been from design flaw or a big huck to flat.

I have seen many pedals break from rock hits but not cranks.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

LMN said:


> Cranks failing is really disappointing. They should be a non-failure part period. You should be able to ride a set of cranks until the end of time.
> 
> I absolutely hate it when stuff breaks on my bike. I keep really good care of my bike and tend to be very conservative with my parts choices but I still have random failures once in a while.


 I use to always buy the lightest parts. After breaking cranks, cassettes, wheels, tires, spokes, seats, well I slowly started adding weight back in. When a part breaks, unless it's just a freak thing, I'll try and upgrade the part to something that won't break next time.


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

LMN said:


> I have been heavily involved in the cycling for 30 years now and honestly I have only ever seen two cranks fail from smashing against rocks. All failures have been from design flaw or a big huck to flat.
> 
> I have seen many pedals break from rock hits but not cranks.


I've seen a couple SRAM cranks fail like yours did, albeit on 160mm travel bikes ridden by former motox riders in their 20s going way harder than I ever will.

I personally had at least 3 shimano road/gravel cranks fail with zero hucks involved, so I guess I'll stick with the other ones? Perhaps another reason to run shorter cranks....less leverage when hucking and lower percentage of rock strike stresses on the system?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

The two regular failures that I can’t believe are still an issue are the XTR shifters and SRAM chains. Those two companies should have fixed those issues a couple of years ago.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

SRAM chains? What happens to them?


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Shimano shifters? What planet are you on. 

Shimano mountain bike brake calipers failing at the o ring and leaking fluid... 5 examples across multiple bikes ive owned.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Sram chains are breaking at starts all the time.

Shimano XTR /XT 12-speed shifter failure has been a significant issue from the get-go. I don't go anywhere without a spare shifter with me. Very well known issue.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

LMN said:


> Sram chains are breaking at starts all the time.
> 
> Shimano XTR /XT 12-speed shifter failure has been a significant issue from the get-go. I don't go anywhere without a spare shifter with me. Very well known issue.


I've maybe seen 2 chains break in the last 5 years, including all of the racing and rides I've done. One was a pro at the Whiskey Off Road several years back. Mushroom shaped pins used by both manufacturers keep the links from sliding off and even though I use Shimano chains mostly, I can't say anything bad about either's modern chains. Breaking chains is ultra-rare and I'd chock it up to something other than the chain in most cases, it's just not a thing anymore.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

LMN said:


> Sram chains are breaking at starts all the time.
> 
> Shimano XTR /XT 12-speed shifter failure has been a significant issue from the get-go. I don't go anywhere without a spare shifter with me. Very well known issue.


I've never seen/heard of the shifter issue (not saying it isn't), but absolutely agree on the SRAM chains. My theory is it's to do with the harshness of a SRAM shift.

The frequency of failures must be low compared to the overall number of SRAM users, which I guess speaks to the quality of the components overcoming (what I see as) the potential flaw.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> I've never seen/heard of the shifter issue (not saying it isn't), but absolutely agree on the SRAM chains. My theory is it's to do with the harshness of a SRAM shift.
> 
> The frequency of failures must be low compared to the overall number of SRAM users, which I guess speaks to the quality of the components overcoming (what I see as) the potential flaw.


Have a look at this mtbr forum thread about the 12 speed Shimano XTR M9100 and XT M8100 shifter issues:









Shimano XTR M9100 shifters keep breaking--no downshift...


I've had three XTR M9100 12 speed shifters break on me, all in the same manner. Two were warranty replacements for the first broken one. The latest replacement only lasted about 2 weeks before breaking. What happens is the shift lever (long one) intermittently stops shifting--just pushes in...




www.mtbr.com





I don’t always follow up these things. The XTR M9100 shifter on my Orbea Oiz failed back in 2020 and was replaced under warranty. I then sold both the replacement XTR M9100 shifter and XTR M9100 rear derailleur to a friend. 

That warranty replacement XTR M9100 shifter failed a few months ago in the same way too.


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## Cardy George (Dec 3, 2020)

WR304 said:


> Have a look at this mtbr forum thread about the 12 speed Shimano XTR M9100 and XT M8100 shifter issues:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been following that thread and from what I can tell the shifters made later in 2020 (I think, without re-reading) haven't had an issue.

At least I hope so because I'm running one from late last year.

I still carry a spare though


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## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

LMN said:


> Sram chains are breaking at starts all the time.
> 
> Shimano XTR /XT 12-speed shifter failure has been a significant issue from the get-go. I don't go anywhere without a spare shifter with me. Very well known issue.


Yeah. SRAM chains… I run Shimano but started carrying SRAM quick links because I got tired of having rides cut short by my main training partner’s broken chains. Admittedly he’s not the smoothest shifter (or most prepared), but it got downright ridiculous (and stopped after a switch to HG+, so far).


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> Why do you consider foam filled extra security? As stated before, I use X01 cranks, but for budget reasons...


 It adds toughness to the structure. The carbon is able to absorb more impact of it has a material backing it up like a honeycomb polymer or alloy or just a simple polystyrene or polyurethane foam. A hollow carbon structure is wholly dependant on the resin for impact resistance


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> The two regular failures that I can’t believe are still an issue are the XTR shifters and SRAM chains. Those two companies should have fixed those issues a couple of years ago.


Huh?? SRAM eagle chains? No way. Only time I’ve seen them break is when the rider has jammed it through 4 or 5 gears in a hurry and any chain would break then. The 11 speed chains had a problem with breaking at the point where a river was peened incorrectly with the incorrect chain tool driver pin


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Trek have released their new Bontrager Kovee RSL mtb wheels. The top end version has a claimed weight of 1,119g and consists of a 29mm inside width hooked carbon rim (claimed rim weight 315g), 24 spokes front and rear and DT Swiss 240 hubs.









New Bontrager 29" MTB wheels are sub 1,200g! More affordable models are pretty light, too


The completely redesigned Bontrager Kovee RSL XC race wheels have been raced under their World Cup riders for more than a year, come with no rider weight limit, handle super wide tires, and weigh as little as 1,199 grams. This makes them some of the (if not thee) lightest mountain bike wheels on...




bikerumor.com














The main claim for the wheels is that going with a shallower profile for the carbon fibre rim it gives increased compliance and comfort.

I thought it was interesting that despite being a lightweight tubeless mtb rim it still has bead hooks for tyre retention as well. Hookless rims are claimed to be both stronger ( due to not having that bead hook), lighter and easier to make so it’s increasingly rare to see them nowadays.









Hookless vs Hooked: An Explainer


The question in the minds of many riders - what is the difference between hooked and hookless?




www.huntbikewheels.com





The benefit of a hooked rim is that the tyre is held on with less risk of rolling off the bead cornering hard or burping the tyre at low pressures.


----------



## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

With valves and tape its pretty much spot on same weight as roval control sl


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

WR304 said:


> I thought it was interesting that despite being a lightweight tubeless mtb rim it still has bead hooks for tyre retention as well. Hookless rims are claimed to be both stronger ( due to not having that bead hook), lighter and easier to make so it’s increasingly rare to see them nowadays.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll venture a guess that the hook has been included not for tire retention, but to provide a more broad impact zone to reduce pinch flats and also introduce a flex point that allows for higher impact fracture resistance and less likelihood of failure through the entire cross section (aka catastrophic failure) on high energy/force impacts.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

brentos said:


> I'll venture a guess that the hook has been included not for tire retention, but to provide a more broad impact zone to reduce pinch flats and also introduce a flex point that allows for higher impact fracture resistance and less likelihood of failure through the entire cross section (aka catastrophic failure) on high energy/force impacts.


This article by Enve is about tubeless pinch flats:









Pinch Flats, The Ultimate Buzzkill - ENVE


You’re in the zone, finding flow, tuned out but completely tuned in to your ride… Then bam, rim and rock collide, slicing through rubber enroute to their




www.enve.com





In the Enve article they put a lot of the blame for tubeless pinch flats on the top of the rim being too narrow. The tweaked Bontrager rim profile, making the top of the rim wider too, would tie up with that but it also has a lot in common with the older rim designs, such as the Enve Gen 1 rim below.










The newer Specialized MTB rims have a wider top to the rim for the same reason too:









New 1240g Roval Control SL Team Issue XC wheels are their lightest ever wheelset


Roval releases their lightest wheelset ever, and it's for MTB! The 1240g Control SL Team Issue wheels shed weight w/ new rims and ditching the front axle!




bikerumor.com














The Enve and Specialized rims do this by keeping a hookless rim and making the top of the rim outboard, so that there is a wider flat bit of rim sticking out each side to try and combat pinch flats.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This article is about the different lever options for Magura brake lever blades:









New Magura MT7 HC-W brakes get Loic Bruni-designed lever, limited distribution


Magura is now packaging their MT7 brakes with the long, flat lever blade designed by World Cup-winning racer Loic Bruni.




bikerumor.com





This picture is a nice illustration of what they look like: 












HC-W(ide) (Loic Bruni)
2-Finger Lever
HC Lever


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

WR304 said:


> This article is about the different lever options for Magura brake lever blades:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you run Magura brakes?


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

WR304 said:


> This article is about the different lever options for Magura brake lever blades:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like the look of the new lever. I have the Trail Sports and the shape of the curvy lever never really felt as good as the Shimano levers.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Do you run Magura brakes?


Not at the moment. I’ve been half thinking about it though.

I’m currently using Shimano Deore XT M8120 4 pot brakes with Swisstop Disc 27 pads and the Shimano RT99 Ice Tech Freeza rotors.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

WR304 said:


> Not at the moment. I’ve been half thinking about it though.
> 
> I’m currently using Shimano Deore XT M8120 4 pot brakes with Swisstop Disc 27 pads and the Shimano RT99 Ice Tech Freeza rotors.


I'm almost the same. I've been tempted by a few Magura options. Haven't been brave enough to move away from my XT 2-pots.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I am too heavy handed to use them. I had the official bleed kit and just completely stripped out the lever the first time around. It wasn't sealing. They were still leaking while I tried to seal, I tightened it up until I no longer saw bubbles at the lever and stripped.

Went to TRP and have been very happy with them.


----------



## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

All Magura for me over the last dozen years. MT7 on my trail bike and MT8 SL on the HT race bike. Love the modulation, lever feel, looks and weight. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

5 Race Bikes From the 2022 Leadville 100:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/4-race-bikes-from-the-2022-leadville-100.html



This picture is Keegan Swenson’s Santa Cruz highball hardtail.

If you look at the bars those are SQ Labs inner bar ends for a narrower position on the fast sections. 

Also he’s wearing a Rapha skinsuit, Giro Eclipse aero helmet, what look like ribbed aero socks and lace up Giro shoes (more aero than a shoe with boa ratchet dials).


----------



## Vamp (10 mo ago)

WR304 said:


> 5 Race Bikes From the 2022 Leadville 100:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



...and the number board in an aero tuck 🙃


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## Swolie74 (11 mo ago)

....aero socks? lol


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

In the aero game...
At high speed and high cadence, aero socks is surprisingly helpful.
It move at a greater speed than the bike itself thanks to pedaling motion. It is about as effective as aero helmet despite less surface area. And more effective than aero shaped handlebar or deep wheel.

Still, skin suit is the first priority for optimizing equipments for being aero (after optimizing rider position). It's wasteful to ride aero bike and wheels if the cloth isn't skin tight.
So...
Body position >>> skin suit >> aero helmet, aero socks > aero shoes or shoes cover > aero front wheel > aero shaped handlebar > aero frame > aero rear wheel >> aero chainring, crank, pedals, derailleur cage etc.

Keegan Swenson use skin suit, aero helmet, aero socks and even slightly aero shoes. And he has inner bar end to optimize aero position when cruising on flat land. IMO, that nails the balance between aero and weight for this event very well.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Don't forget road pedals and shoes...


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> In the aero game...
> At high speed and high cadence, aero socks is surprisingly helpful.
> It move at a greater speed than the bike itself thanks to pedaling motion. It is about as effective as aero helmet despite less surface area. And more effective than aero shaped handlebar or deep wheel.
> 
> ...


Along with the angled number plate something interesting on the front of the bike is that he has a Rock Shox Sid fork, without the remote lockout, which cleans up the front end a bit more by eliminating an exposed cable. It's a standard Rock Shox Sid fork, rather than a Brain fork (as he's sponsored by Santa Cruz rather than Specialized) so relies on manually reaching down to flick the lever on top of the fork leg.

The blue electrical tape visible is where he has taped some tubeless puncture repair bacon strips ready for easy access by the brake levers in case of issues.

You can see Keegan Swenson's 2022 Leadville 100 race file on Strava here: 









Leadville 100 🥇 - Keegan S.'s 105.3 mi mountain bike ride


6:00:01 finish time, 96 seconds off record time. 365 days until we try again 👀




www.strava.com





In 2022 Keegan Swenson won the race: 105 miles distance, 11,953ft climbing, 6 hours 1 second, average speed 17.6mph at an average power of 266 watts.

The Leadville course is gravel road for a lot of it and despite being described as a mountain bike race is run off at high speeds, frequently with riders drafting in large groups. There is at least 60 miles of the course in 2022 where Keegan Swenson averaged 20mph or over, the big climbs dragging down the overall average speed.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

WR304 said:


> Along with the angled number plate something interesting on the front of the bike is that he has a Rock Shox Sid fork, without the remote lockout, which cleans up the front end a bit more by eliminating an exposed cable. It's a standard Rock Shox Sid fork, rather than a Brain fork (as he's sponsored by Santa Cruz rather than Specialized) so relies on manually reaching down to flick the lever on top of the fork leg.
> 
> The blue electrical tape visible is where he has taped some tubeless puncture repair bacon strips ready for easy access by the brake levers in case of issues.
> 
> ...



Does anyone still consider Leadville an MTB race?


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

It's a traditional xc race.
XC as in cross country, crossing a lot of country side on unpaved gravel road and terrains.

Not the modern competition called XCC/XCO or short track xc on a closed loop man made trail.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Hexsense said:


> It's a traditional xc race.
> XC as in cross country, crossing a lot of country side on unpaved gravel road and terrains.
> 
> Not the modern competition called XCC/XCO or short track xc on a closed loop man made trail.


No, it is not a traditional XC race.

It is a gravel road race that a mountain bike happens to be fast on.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Hexsense said:


> It's a traditional xc race.
> XC as in cross country, crossing a lot of country side on unpaved gravel road and terrains.
> 
> Not the modern competition called XCC/XCO or short track xc on a closed loop man made trail.


You call it that. I reserve that to be an XC MOUNTAIN BIKE race, it has to be mostly on single track.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Does anyone still consider Leadville an MTB race?


At the 2021 Leadville 100 race last year Cory Wallace from Canada rode what is close to a gravel bike and came 10th overall:









Cory Wallace is racing Leadville 100 on something that resembles a gravel bike - Canadian Cycling Magazine


Canadian's Kona for marathon XC race blurs lines




cyclingmagazine.ca





His ride from 2021 is on Strava too to compare times against the mountain bikes:









Leadville 100: 30 seconds off 9th 😵 - Cory W.'s 169.3 km bike ride


Cory W. rode 169.3 km on Aug 14, 2021.




www.strava.com





He wasn't that far off on the descents it looks like. He was maybe dropping a minute a descent at most to the front runners riding the drop handlebar bike.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Thanks. Am I seeing the new version of the Aspen being branded as "Aspen ST"?



WR304 said:


> 5 Race Bikes From the 2022 Leadville 100:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Thanks. Am I seeing the new version of the Aspen being branded as "Aspen ST"?


It might be a separate semi slick tyre, rather than a replacement for the current Maxxis Aspen.

Nino Schurter has been riding that semi slick tyre as a prototype since all the way back in 2019!









Spy Shot: Nino Schurter racing prototype Maxxis Aspen Race XC mountain bike tires


Is the Maxxis Apsen getting a low-profile option? We spotted Nino Schurter racing some super wide unmarked prototype Aspen Race tires at today's World Cup..




bikerumor.com





.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

When it comes to aero socks Mathieu Van Der Poel races in special Zwift socks!












He can get away with it being fully sponsored by Zwift.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

mikesee said:


> Does anyone still consider Leadville an MTB race?


Mountain Biking is probably niche enough for us to not need to get into the Gravel type of gatekeeping lol.

It's a different type of mountain bike race that's for sure lol. Always amazing to see all the old school mountain bikes in the field when watching random Leadville videos from YouTube. That tells you something about it 😅.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

LMN said:


> No, it is not a traditional XC race.
> 
> It is a gravel road race that a mountain bike happens to be fast on.



Agreed.

I don't follow XC or gravel that closely anymore, but I swear I've seen events billed as gravel that are lots more technical than Leadville.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Hexsense said:


> It's a traditional xc race.
> XC as in cross country, crossing a lot of country side on unpaved gravel road and terrains.
> 
> Not the modern competition called XCC/XCO or short track xc on a closed loop man made trail.



So, paved and gravel roads aren't man made?!

MTB races used to include lots of trail. Maybe a wide/road start loop to spread things out, but then lots and lots of trail.

Leadville has virtually zero trail. Sorta hard to understand why it'd be referred to as MTB at all. Pacelines, drafting, aero benefits, etc...

No slight intended in pointing this out. Just curious on the nomenclature I guess.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

mikesee said:


> So, paved and gravel roads aren't man made?!
> 
> MTB races used to include lots of trail. Maybe a wide/road start loop to spread things out, but then lots and lots of trail.
> 
> ...


Maybe it is more that it's all mountain biking, but "Gravel" is mountain biking on a less capable bike. 

We don't (or shouldn't) be telling people at the local green trails/paths that they aren't mountain biking just because they aren't hitting the gnar.

Mountain Bike racing for years and years was non-technical, because that's what was available and rideable on the bikes we had. It's pretty reasonable for some of the bigger ones to survive.

I've seen footage of some of the XCM races from all over the World that still aren't technical. 

You have to come to New Zealand and do the Whaka100 for _proper_ SingleTrack XCM racing (I'm joking!! - though do please come, it's an epically good race)


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

mail_liam said:


> Maybe it is more that it's all mountain biking, but "Gravel" is mountain biking on a less capable bike.
> 
> We don't (or shouldn't) be telling people at the local green trails/paths that they aren't mountain biking just because they aren't hitting the gnar.
> 
> ...



Never said or even hinted at gnar. Just trail.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

mikesee said:


> Never said or even hinted at gnar. Just trail.


I know, I wasn't calling you out specifically. Just talking in generalities.

There's still heaps of mountain bike races that have a heap of 4wd track. Do we need to reclassify them now 🤷‍♂️. They're still usually faster on the MTB.

I'm very much with you on what I prefer to ride. I only enter races that have majority SingleTrack. I see lots of mountain bike riders around though that just dealing with chunky 4wd track etc is enough of a challenge and the races they enter are the more old school variety.


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

I like those inner bar ends. I used them in a long mtb event that had some road sections, but I need some bars that let me move them a little further inwards. 



WR304 said:


> 5 Race Bikes From the 2022 Leadville 100:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

This year he raced a carbon Honzo frame and finished faster. 

As an aside, he’s a good follow on social media. This year, his “training” early in the year was bikepacking and racing in different parts of Africa. 



WR304 said:


> At the 2021 Leadville 100 race last year Cory Wallace from Canada rode what is close to a gravel bike and came 10th overall:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

WR304 said:


> When it comes to aero socks Mathieu Van Der Poel races in special Zwift socks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So that's why I'm slow? I don't have the right socks!!

While I'm venting I need Maxxis to send me some 170 tpi tires so I can for sure clean up at the local Crank & Drank.


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Anyone recognise the nice little saddlebag on Hannah Otto's bike?


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

New contis??


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> No, it is not a traditional XC race.
> 
> It is a gravel road race that a mountain bike happens to be fast on.


I was participating in these sort of events 20years ago. They fell under Cross Country Ultra Marathon back then.
Now they have their own set of rules. We’ve got a few over here. Most over 200km, one event is 361km


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> New contis??


Continental Ardent Race?


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Continental ruban! That's not a new tire!


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

cycloholic said:


> Continental ruban! That's not a new tire!
> View attachment 1996331


From Continentals homepage: "The partner for your commute, running errands and the weekend tour."

So perfect for a quick spin on a city track... 
Would be interesting to see what casing/rubber they have in their prototype, and what the weight is.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

He was commuting!


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Current wheels; DT XMC 1200 30 (the older model with DT 240 6-bolt hubs - weight with tubeless valves etc about 1620g).

Offered a pair of Miche K1s - 1330+tubeless kit claimed. Centrelock so I'd need new rotors. 27mm internal (running 2.35 xc tyres). Reviews seem reasonably positive except for 12 degree freehub engagement angle criticised. 

Worth bothering? Bike is an NS Synonym RC.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Close, good guess, but not the same, note that the center tread has continuous connecting blocks.

The Ruban is also a heavy duty tire, 700g in even a slim 2.1! I don't think wee Mr. Pidcock would choose that for a race 
























cycloholic said:


> Continental ruban! That's not a new tire!
> View attachment 1996331


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Too bad this has a schedule conflict with the Breck Epic, and of course the top pros will go where the payday and exposure goes. There couldn't be a bigger contrast of styles. A friend of mine who lives in CO recently competed, won a stage, got top 10 overall times, and still agreed with me: not a tougher race out there.



WR304 said:


> 5 Race Bikes From the 2022 Leadville 100:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Yes indeed, but I wonder when are they gonna start selling the Aspen ST? Seems like a superior tire down the middle. 

As an aside, I've heard that Nino used the production Aspen (120tpi instead of 170tpi) at the Cape Epic and still flatted a bunch...



WR304 said:


> It might be a separate semi slick tyre, rather than a replacement for the current Maxxis Aspen.
> 
> Nino Schurter has been riding that semi slick tyre as a prototype since all the way back in 2019!
> 
> ...


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

chomxxo said:


> Yes indeed, but I wonder when are they gonna start selling the Aspen ST? Seems like a superior tire down the middle.
> 
> As an aside, I've heard that Nino used the production Aspen (120tpi instead of 170tpi) at the Cape Epic and still flatted a bunch...


Yeah, Frischi confirmed they were running the 120tpi version. He said same as they have for the last few years, in defence of the tyres.

The "semi slick" ST looks to me like it would provide better traction over roots etc for climbing. It'd be nice if Maxxis would confirm these things.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> The "semi slick" ST looks to me like it would provide better traction over roots etc for climbing. It'd be nice if Maxxis would confirm these things.


You want Maxxis to spill the details of a "pro" only tyre that's not available to the public?


It would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

NordieBoy said:


> You want Maxxis to spill the details of a "pro" only tyre that's not available to the public?
> 
> 
> It would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath


No, but I'd like them to say this isn't coming to market. 

Like the One70, they've acknowledged people _think_ they want it, but that they don't want to deal with the people who buy it and immediately complain about how easily Maxxis tyres puncture etc lol.

Plus, I'm still labouring under the illusion that the new tread isn't "Pro Only" 😅.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

I'm tired of maxxis pro only tires policy.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> I'm tired of maxxis pro only tires policy.


Doesn't every tyre manufacturer do the same when they label them "prototype"?


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Kinda yes but haven't really seen any 170tpi on the market yet!


----------



## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

mail_liam said:


> No, but I'd like them to say this isn't coming to market.
> 
> Like the One70, they've acknowledged people _think_ they want it, but that they don't want to deal with the people who buy it and immediately complain about how easily Maxxis tyres puncture etc lol.
> 
> Plus, I'm still labouring under the illusion that the new tread isn't "Pro Only" 😅.


It’s in here:



https://m.pinkbike.com/news/the-pinkbike-podcast-episode-137-maxxis-aaron-chamberlain-on-pro-only-rubber-all-the-minions-and-tires-prices.html



I think it’s more towards the end 1/3rd, but don’t recall. Pretty sure he says Aspen ST coming 2023. 170 tpi…not so much.

Edit: if you listen and find it, would be great to add in the specifics.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Rain was expected for the Euro Champs, so one could only guess that was a factor for Pidcock's tire choice. It rained for the ladies...


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

cycloholic said:


> I'm tired of maxxis pro only tires policy.


Trust me, you don’t want those tires. I have a large bin of lightly used 170tpi tires with massive tears in them.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

carlostruco said:


> Rain was expected for the Euro Champs, so one could only guess that was a factor for Pidcock's tire choice. It rained for the ladies...


I can't see how this is better than xking in wet.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

cycloholic said:


> I can't see how this is better than xking in wet.


True...


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

He is not a Pro anymore, here is Carlos Coloma's bike:









Bicis de los pro (o team manager): BH Lynx Race EVO de Carlos Coloma


Las BH Lynx Race EVO del BH Templo Cafés UCC han estrenado colores recientemente. Así lucen.




esmtb.com


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Pretty sure I'm going to buy the Intend Samurai CC upside down fork. I own 4 Manitou products and the only one I struggle a bit with is my R7 Pro fork on my Spur. I'd also realize about a 330 gram weight reduction on the front of my bike which is nothing to scoff at. Also the exchange rate is very favorable currently.

Samurai CC - Intend (intend-bc.com)

I'm not worried about any potential lateral flex in this application with only 120mm travel and 35mm stanchions not to mention lower grip tires.

The damper will be fine as it's a RS Charger Raceday. This is my question: Anyone know anything about the Raceday Charger damper? Does it require frequent servicing or anything else I should be aware of?


----------



## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Close, good guess, but not the same, note that the center tread has continuous connecting blocks.
> 
> The Ruban is also a heavy duty tire, 700g in even a slim 2.1! I don't think wee Mr. Pidcock would choose that for a race
> 
> ...


I'm thinking he took a Ruban and trimmed the center knobs.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> The damper will be fine as it's a RS Charger Raceday. This is my question: Anyone know anything about the Raceday Charger damper? Does it require frequent servicing or anything else I should be aware of?


I owned Sid Ultimate with one before trying Fox and then Manitou R7.
1) It's a fine damper for those who weight around the bell curve. You can only adjust (low speed) rebound and that's it. No LSC/HSC/HSR to be adjusted. Compare to the R7, you lost the LSC adjusting knob.
2) The damper components are permanently pressed fit into a light-weight compact unit. It is not custom tunable as it disintegrate upon disassembly. So, you stuck with default tune forever, with only rebound adjustable. You have to live with default compression damping setting which can be described as light/low. Mine certainly bob/dive more than R7. Yet, when I drop it also managed to feel harsher than R7 but I'm not sure if that part is due to the highly progressive spring on Sid Ultimate.
3) Lockout lever has 2 positions, full open or full lockout. No middle position. The lock out is real firm.
4) My friend has one that leak oil near the damper top. After replacement, no problem since. Faulty unit usually show its problem really soon after initial break in. If it works fine after a while then it's likely not a problematic damper to live with. You just have to bleed it once a long long while.


----------



## down0050 (Aug 4, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> Pretty sure I'm going to buy the Intend Samurai CC upside down fork. I own 4 Manitou products and the only one I struggle a bit with is my R7 Pro fork on my Spur. I'd also realize about a 330 gram weight reduction on the front of my bike which is nothing to scoff at. Also the exchange rate is very favorable currently.
> 
> Samurai CC - Intend (intend-bc.com)
> 
> ...


I ended up with the new slim Raceday damper in my 2018 SID and I'm not happy with it at all, it's a lot like having no damping whatsoever, the lockout isn't firm and it's noisy. I had the older (larger) Charger damper before but a non-serviceable seal in the lockout area failed so they gave me the new damper. It was so bad that I brought it back to the shop thinking it was defective but SRAM says it's working properly...I am 195lb though, maybe it works better for lighter riders. The damping in my Fox 32 is worlds better by comparison, even though the chassis of that fork is way too flexible for my liking.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

down0050 said:


> I ended up with the new slim Raceday damper in my 2018 SID and I'm not happy with it at all, it's a lot like having no damping whatsoever,...
> I am 195lb though, maybe it works better for lighter riders.


It weight about 1/3 of other dampers.
It does half the job for heavier riders (can properly damp the rebound action, not really doing much on the compression). Good deal.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Good input.

That's a lot to deal with honestly. At 192#s I might be a bit too chunky for the intended damping range of the Raceday charger.

I can live with equivalent suspension performance for the weight savings, but a notable drop in suspension performance would be unacceptable to me.

Need to think on that one.

Thanks guys.


----------



## down0050 (Aug 4, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> That's a lot to deal with honestly. At 192#s I might be a bit too chunky for the intended damping range of the Raceday charger.


I was really surprised when they announced that fork and specified that damper! I would have thought it would be beneath them to spec a miniature plastic damper on such a high end fork lol


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

down0050 said:


> I was really surprised when they announced that fork and specified that damper! I would have thought it would be beneath them to spec a miniature plastic damper on such a high end fork lol




A full plastic frame is OK, with plastic bars and cranks and rims, but a plastic damper part crosses a line?

Pretty rich.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> Good input.
> 
> That's a lot to deal with honestly. At 192#s I might be a bit too chunky for the intended damping range of the Raceday charger.
> 
> ...


Whether non adjustable compression damping is an issue or not, really depend on suspension setting style.

Some people simply run compression damping full open and set up stiff air spring. Those, won't fault this damper with its non adjustable light compression setting. 

But those that traditionally actually dial in decent amount of compression damping will have to adapt to rely more on air spring support.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I prefer to set up suspension correctly. Using spring rate to hold the bike/ rider weight up and set static geometry and using damper orifices to control rate of movement.

MTBers sure have some weird ideas generally on suspension set up I've noticed. Like setting up their suspension to feel like a pogo stick.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Yeah, Frischi confirmed they were running the 120tpi version. He said same as they have for the last few years, in defence of the tyres.
> 
> The "semi slick" ST looks to me like it would provide better traction over roots etc for climbing. It'd be nice if Maxxis would confirm these things.


according to other users of the ST it does offer better traction and surprisingly good life. It will never be on sale though as it uses a rubber compound Maxxis uses for other competition only tyres. Used tyres are returned to maxxis. Clearly they don't want other companies getting hold of the rubber to test and determine its composition.


----------



## down0050 (Aug 4, 2014)

mikesee said:


> A full plastic frame is OK, with plastic bars and cranks and rims, but a plastic damper part crosses a line?
> 
> Pretty rich.


For that company I mean - their stuff is all beautifully machined intricate aluminum stuff, to put a mass manufactured Rockshox damper in there was surprising for me!


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Brad said:


> according to other users of the ST it does offer better traction and surprisingly good life. It will never be on sale though as it uses a rubber compound Maxxis uses for other competition only tyres. Used tyres are returned to maxxis. Clearly they don't want other companies getting hold of the rubber to test and determine its composition.


A bit like the super special, expensive protection layer Aaron talked about on the PB Pod.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

down0050 said:


> For that company I mean - their stuff is all beautifully machined intricate aluminum stuff, to put a mass manufactured Rockshox damper in there was surprising for me!


For me a mass produced damper was a plus.

Mainly because Intend always talks about the fork design, but the heart of any suspension component is it's damping and that was a huge unknown. That's where the quality feel and control comes from.

The issue of course is that the Raceday Charger damper prioritizes weight over nearly everything else so it has it's limitations as well. But at least you know what you are getting.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Im super happy with all my sids. Top fox has only low speed adjust as sid has plus they cost like 1500euros VS 650euros for the top sid (bike24.com) plus they have ridiculous stupid service and 1k euros in new tools in almost every new product plus you dont wanna mess with scandinavian distributor. Also everytime i tried a fox i was never amazed.

PS: i did had some problems with raceday charger with 3 position(scott spark). Changed like 3 with the same problem(didn't lock some times), currently using the older charger.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

^
Fox Fit4 has LSC and LSR.
Sid Ultimate's Race day damper has only LSR.
Not even a LSC dial.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Hmm i think you are right, raceday doesnt seem like it has low speed compression.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> Hmm i think you are right, raceday doesnt seem like it has low speed compression.


it has low speed compression, you just can't adjust it


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Brad said:


> it has low speed compression, you just can't adjust it


It is important to understand this because at first I was under the impression that the Raceday was a fully tuneable damper by a trained mechanic. it has loads of low speed compression and feels great under a light rider who rides fast and attacks the course but its sh*t under heavier riders. If you're not a racer build rather stay away and opt for a Motion Control or older Charger2.1 RCT3 that does have independent HSC , LSC and Rebound adjust. (yes these are on the Pike and I would ride a Pike on an XC bike if I weighed over 80kg)


----------



## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

RexRacerX said:


> It’s in here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Brad said:


> according to other users of the ST it does offer better traction and surprisingly good life. It will never be on sale though as it uses a rubber compound Maxxis uses for other competition only tyres. Used tyres are returned to maxxis. Clearly they don't want other companies getting hold of the rubber to test and determine its composition.


So ST is not short track but actually sticky tire, or super super tire, or… so many options.

I quickly went through that pinkbike podcast again and seems the Aspen ST was not explicitly referenced. However, they say sea otter next year will involve the release of new xc tread patterns (not just the “severe” mud tire) and rubber compounds developed with Scott-SRAM. So, take that as you will. 

Starts at 1:04:45. Basically the end, because, of course.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Brad said:


> It is important to understand this because at first I was under the impression that the Raceday was a fully tuneable damper by a trained mechanic. it has loads of low speed compression and feels great under a light rider who rides fast and attacks the course but its sh*t under heavier riders. If you're not a racer build rather stay away and opt for a Motion Control or older Charger2.1 RCT3 that does have independent HSC , LSC and Rebound adjust. (yes these are on the Pike and I would ride a Pike on an XC bike if I weighed over 80kg)


I disagree, it has slightly more compression than the charger 2 in full open settings. Same as the non LSC charger2 for Scott spark. The fork rides amazing.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> I disagree, it has slightly more compression than the charger 2 in full open settings. Same as the non LSC charger2 for Scott spark. The fork rides amazing.


Oh I agree with you that it rides very well. I like it a lot but I’m A 70kg rider on a medium frame so I’m within the tuning rAnge for the damper. People outside of that may not agree with us and they would be better suited by opting for a fork with a damper with more adjustability.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

cycloholic said:


> I disagree, it has slightly more compression than the charger 2 in full open settings. Same as the non LSC charger2 for Scott spark. The fork rides amazing.


May I ask how much you weigh?

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

77-80


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> 77-80


frame size? Was the fork purchased aftermarket or as OEM on your bike?


----------



## utmtbrider (Dec 8, 2020)

Some closer pics of Srams blackbox drivetrain posted a couple pages back. Looks interesting, hopefully this stuff can go into production relatively soon.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Cassette looks cheaper!!


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Brad said:


> frame size? Was the fork purchased aftermarket or as OEM on your bike?


Currently I'm using the latest 32mm model as aftermarket with the stock Scott older 3p charger2 and one previous Sid ultimate sl(the last one with the carbon steerer) as aftermarket fork also on my ht.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

oh, Scott special version of Raceday charger looks interesting.
Other than being 3 position remote vs 2.
Is there any other known change vs stock Raceday charger damper?


----------



## utmtbrider (Dec 8, 2020)

cycloholic said:


> Cassette looks cheaper!!


I agree, but considering it’s likely not production ready it’s probably more of a proof of concept rather than a polished setup.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Never tried a normal raceday to share comparison feedback really! I tried Scott version for a while with no success at all! Changed 3 race day Scott with the same problem. Some times didnt lock. A year now and waiting for a 4th replacement! I'm currently Using the older charger2 instead. What i notice though is that the middle position is firmer on the newer charger, personally i prefer the older softer one.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

utmtbrider said:


> I agree, but considering it’s likely not production ready it’s probably more of a proof of concept rather than a polished setup.


It looks like it's not one piece this is why I'm saying so. The current one is one piece except the big one if i recall right.
I hope it shifts smoother🙌


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> I prefer to set up suspension correctly. Using spring rate to hold the bike/ rider weight up and set static geometry and using damper orifices to control rate of movement.
> 
> MTBers sure have some weird ideas generally on suspension set up I've noticed. Like setting up their suspension to feel like a pogo stick.


The demands of mountain bike suspension is widely different than anything else. The rider makes up more than 80% of the suspended weight. This is big because a rider has to signicant ability to control the amount of weight the suspension is being asked to suspended at any given time. The "correct" set-up is completely different than what is used in motor sports. Even suspension on an E-bike is significantly different.

I have a high school mountain bike team and I get them to do a lot of experimentation with suspension settings. The trend is the better the rider the more "lively" they liked the suspension. The best rider I ever had on the team came to set-up that would be unridable for me. A year later he hitting podiums in U21 at multiple EWS. So maybe he was onto something.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I really hope they aren't using 3 aluminum cogs. The 11 steel + 1 aluminum cassette is/was fantastic. This will reduce lifespan significantly.


----------



## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

@LMN what do you mean by "lively"? 

higher spring rate, less compression and rebound damping?
easily moves?
bouncy rather than planted?
pedals well?
anything but plush?


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> I really hope they aren't using 3 aluminum cogs. The 11 steel + 1 aluminum cassette is/was fantastic. This will reduce lifespan significantly.


Steel? I don't think so! I think is one piece alloy CNC


----------



## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> Steel? I don't think so! I think is one piece alloy CNC


big aluminum cog with next two smaller cogs being aluminum and riveted to big cog,
next smaller cogs could be titanium and fabricated as individual cogs mounted to an aluminum carrier
see post #1038


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

ccm said:


> @LMN what do you mean by "lively"?
> 
> higher spring rate, less compression and rebound damping?
> easily moves?
> ...


I took him to mean simply less damping in general, relying on the spring to suspend the rider and do the work. Personally I've gravitated to a more progressive air spring setup and less compression and rebound damping over time. I run normal sag (or maybe slightly more than normal) but significant spring progression.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> oh, Scott special version of Raceday charger looks interesting.
> Other than being 3 position remote vs 2.
> Is there any other known change vs stock Raceday charger damper?


totally different tune, its a Scott custom.Can only get them through Scott dealers


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> Cassette looks cheaper!!


eerrrrrmmmm ja well maybe but it will have different configurations no just 10-50 and 10-52


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> I really hope they aren't using 3 aluminum cogs. The 11 steel + 1 aluminum cassette is/was fantastic. This will reduce lifespan significantly.


This cassette, if it sees production, will be a "raceday" cassette. The idea being that the last three sprockets canbe swapped from 36-42-52 to 36-40-44 or 36-40-46 or 36-42-48. This could be more interchangeable between mtb and gravel, steep courses and Munich etc


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> The demands of mountain bike suspension is widely different than anything else. The rider makes up more than 80% of the suspended weight. This is big because a rider has to signicant ability to control the amount of weight the suspension is being asked to suspended at any given time. The "correct" set-up is completely different than what is used in motor sports. Even suspension on an E-bike is significantly different.
> 
> I have a high school mountain bike team and I get them to do a lot of experimentation with suspension settings. The trend is the better the rider the more "lively" they liked the suspension. The best rider I ever had on the team came to set-up that would be unridable for me. A year later he hitting podiums in U21 at multiple EWS. So maybe he was onto something.


My skills coach races DH and Enduro and he's been pushing the faster rebound softer compression damping for some time. I had my Lefty tuned to work a little more this way where the open compression is more open and the lock out is softer. I run a faster rebound now than in the past and its much better , more control, when going fast. The front wheel just feels ore planted. Its this set up that I found is why RS forks are tuned the way they are. 
Fox feels great on the show room floor or when you're riding slower. RS forks just feel less overwhelmed when going fast (out of the box that is). Fox can be tuned to more like the RS forks but its hard to get the RS forks feeling like a Fox at slower speeds. That's where we've settled and he's hole shop team now run RS forks


----------



## mostlyeels (Apr 9, 2020)

utmtbrider said:


> Some closer pics of Srams blackbox drivetrain posted a couple pages back. Looks interesting, hopefully this stuff can go into production relatively soon.


Different chain too, more like their road chain apparently. Wonder if that'll become the standard for 12 speed MTB?


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

LMN said:


> The demands of mountain bike suspension is widely different than anything else. The rider makes up more than 80% of the suspended weight. This is big because a rider has to signicant ability to control the amount of weight the suspension is being asked to suspended at any given time. The "correct" set-up is completely different than what is used in motor sports. Even suspension on an E-bike is significantly different.
> 
> I have a high school mountain bike team and I get them to do a lot of experimentation with suspension settings. The trend is the better the rider the more "lively" they liked the suspension. The best rider I ever had on the team came to set-up that would be unridable for me. A year later he hitting podiums in U21 at multiple EWS. So maybe he was onto something.


I'm still really on the fence on that Intend fork. Sadly not due to the odd fork but more-so for the Race Day damper that in all reality has damping rates likely chosen for a 150# Pro, instead of a 190# Bro.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> Cassette looks cheaper!!


Alloy & titanium...
Race day only.
Looks like 3 separate (pinned) alloy, mono-block of 3, mono-block of 3, 3 seperate.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)




----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> I really hope they aren't using 3 aluminum cogs. The 11 steel + 1 aluminum cassette is/was fantastic. This will reduce lifespan significantly.


Lots of "barely used" XTR cassettes on fleabay. "Lots of life left"....just not in the 3 aluminum cogs, ha.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

westin said:


> Lots of "barely used" XTR cassettes on fleabay. "Lots of life left"....just not in the 3 aluminum cogs, ha.


People need to gear their bikes where they ride on the steel cogs and climb on the Al ones. Not just ride along in 2nd gear 80% of the time!


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

I'd buy "race king tread" tire in 2.3 whenever it is available for rear wheel use.
The existing 2.2 version have too narrow tread to use on the wide wheel.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> People need to gear their bikes where they ride on the steel cogs and climb on the Al ones. Not just ride along in 2nd gear 80% of the time!


I just put a 32T on the front of my new bike instead of a 34T to try and spend less time on those aluminum cogs.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> I really hope they aren't using 3 aluminum cogs. The 11 steel + 1 aluminum cassette is/was fantastic. This will reduce lifespan significantly.


I don't find that 40+ gears made out of aluminum wear all that fast, smaller ones for sure. But if these gears are available separately, like the old aluminum gear from the first generation 1x X01 and XX1 cassettes, that could be a big win, because you wouldn't need to trash the whole thing when a low-end gear wears out. I was able to get one of the last remaining replacement 1up gears for these cassettes and was able to significantly extend the life of mine when the aluminum gear started slipping. So if these are available separately, that could be a pretty cool setup.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

LMN said:


> I just put a 32T on the front of my new bike instead of a 34T to try and spend less time on those aluminum cogs.


That and getting your RPM up is almost always beneficial.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Jayem said:


> *I don't find that 40+ gears made out of aluminum wear all that fast*, smaller ones for sure. But if these gears are available separately, like the old aluminum gear from the first generation 1x X01 and XX1 cassettes, that could be a big win, because you wouldn't need to trash the whole thing when a low-end gear wears out. I was able to get one of the last remaining replacement 1up gears for these cassettes and was able to significantly extend the life of mine when the aluminum gear started slipping. So if these are available separately, that could be a pretty cool setup.


E13 enters the chat with recycled beer can Al cogs...


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> E13 enters the chat with recycled beer can Al cogs...


I got two of those, one is on my bike that I did the Iditarod 350 and White Mountains 100 last winter, in addition to other racing and riding. The other is on my FS fatbike which I've won a few DH races on (in the snow). These work fine. I think they had some earlier bad batches most likely, but I don't find their stuff to be horrible. The install is wonky, but if you can get past that, they work just fine.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Brad said:


> This cassette, if it sees production, will be a "raceday" cassette. The idea being that the last three sprockets canbe swapped from 36-42-52 to 36-40-44 or 36-40-46 or 36-42-48. This could be more interchangeable between mtb and gravel, steep courses and Munich etc


for quick thought, 36 to 42 is 17% change in ratio.
Naturally, we'd want bigger change as the last step.
42 to 52 is 24% -> a little too big of a jump? https://gear-calculator.com/?GR=DER...36,42,52&UF=2330&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=KMH&DV=teeth
42 to 48 is 14% -> too small of a change? https://gear-calculator.com/?GR=DER...36,42,48&UF=2330&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=KMH&DV=teeth
The perfect one IMO is... wait for it
42 to 50, which is 19% change. https://gear-calculator.com/?GR=DER...36,42,50&UF=2330&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=KMH&DV=teeth


The 36-40-44 has 11% jump then 10% jump, after the 32 to 36 which is 13% so that's a little weird too.


https://gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS&KB=32&RZ=10,12,14,16,18,21,24,28,32,36,40,44&UF=2330&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=KMH&DV=teeth


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

ccm said:


> big aluminum cog with next two smaller cogs being aluminum and riveted to big cog,
> next smaller cogs could be titanium and fabricated as individual cogs mounted to an aluminum carrier
> see post #1038
> View attachment 1996863


From the picture it looks like the largest three sprockets are aluminium but then the rest of the cassette might be titanium. In which case it will be hideously expensive! 

It’s hard to tell because there could just be a coating applied on steel sprockets, similar to the gold, copper or oil slick finishes on the current SRAM XX1 Eagle cassettes. 

The new cassette from that angle has revised sprocket sizes too. There isn’t the big 52 to 42 tooth jump that is on the current SRAM Eagle 10-52 cassettes.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ccm said:


> @LMN what do you mean by "lively"?
> 
> higher spring rate, less compression and rebound damping?
> easily moves?
> ...


High spring rate, rebound set fast relative to spring rate.

I know a lot of good riders run their compression wide open. BTW that isn't my set-up preference, I find there is a sweet spot for compression, too much and fork is harsh, too little and fork uses its travel too quickly and feels harsh. But I would say most on the XC circuit and Enduro circuit are running very light compression.

Good riders are constantly in the air, they don't pound the chunder they skip accross it. I think use their suspension as a place to store energy so they can use it skip accross the next section.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Brad said:


> This cassette, if it sees production, will be a "raceday" cassette. The idea being that the last three sprockets canbe swapped from 36-42-52 to 36-40-44 or 36-40-46 or 36-42-48. This could be more interchangeable between mtb and gravel, steep courses and Munich etc


The original SRAM XX1 11 speed cassettes (that came with an aluminium largest sprocket) were claimed to have a replaceable largest sprocket. When the aluminium sprocket wore out spare sprockets were supposed to be available to purchase from SRAM to keep the cassette running.

In practice I can’t remember ever seeing those spare aluminium sprockets on sale from SRAM though.

This might end up the same, where although they could theoretically be swapped but the spares might never appear to buy.

Edit: I found what appears to be a 3rd party aluminium largest sprocket for a SRAM XX1 11 speed cassette that is still available: $130 USD.









42T Replacement Rear Sprocket SRAM X01 XX1 11sp Cassette - Revolution Components


Have you worn out the largest cog on [...]




www.revolutioncomponents.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

XTR MT900 brake rotors 

*“The pinnacle in mountain bike braking*, SHIMANO XTR RT-MT900 disc brake rotors deliver superb stopping power for the most aggressive riding. The ICE TECHNOLOGIES FREEZA rotors dissipate heat to maintain braking performance on long downhill stretches.”

This Shimano diagram for their newest rotors made me laugh. It’s along the lines of Specialized marketing where the current product is the bestest ever, right until the new model comes out and then the old version suddenly becomes unrideable…











From here:








New Shimano RT-CL900 and RT-CL800 rotors - Weight Weenies







weightweenies.starbike.com


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

What I really want to know is how long the rotors will continue to perform well. Brand new XTR rotors are amazing, put 500km of mountain biking on them and things aren't so good. 



WR304 said:


> XTR MT900 brake rotors
> 
> *“The pinnacle in mountain bike braking*, SHIMANO XTR RT-MT900 disc brake rotors deliver superb stopping power for the most aggressive riding. The ICE TECHNOLOGIES FREEZA rotors dissipate heat to maintain braking performance on long downhill stretches.”
> 
> ...


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

LMN said:


> What I really want to know is how long the rotors will continue to perform well. Brand new XTR rotors are amazing, put 500km of mountain biking on them and things aren't so good.


The new Shimano rotors are officially road ones but come in 160mm diameter that would work on an XC bike.

What that Shimano diagram shows is the amount of deflection when the disc is hot. Shimano Ice Tech rotors (aluminium core and steel braking surface) when hot go a little out of true after a descent using the brakes frequently and take a while to stop that “tinging” sound afterwards as the rotor hits the brake pad until they cool down again. 

My XTR MT900 rear brake rotor was down to 1.2mm thickness when I checked the other day! It had worn through the steel completely on the inner edge of the rotor, it was bending to one side and there were bits of metal flaking off. The minimum thickness is 1.5mm to replace so it might have been left on too long…


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

To go with the 170tpi semi slick tyres I saw a few puncture repair tools for quick fixes in a hurry.





 
In this Berm Peak video he tries out a Muul Mayday repair kit.









MUUL Mayday Kit


The MUUL Mayday Kit is a combination of our Quickdraw Plug Kit and C02 Mount Kit. The system uses a set of silicone mounts with integrated rare earth magnets designed to be the ultimate quick-draw solution to install a tubeless tire plug and inflate your tire with CO2 in less than 30 seconds...




www.gonebikingmad.co.uk





This consists of a quick draw tyre plugger that attaches to the handlebar and a magnetic holder for a CO2 cartridge that can be attached to the frame to access quickly.










Dynaplug have just released a in handlebar Dynaplug storage too:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/check-out-a-wild-outfit-ultralight-sunglasses-tire-plugs-knee-pads-and-more.html



The Dynaplug handlebar storage looks neat but is quite expensive at $124.99 USD for the kit (two pluggers and mounts, one for each end of the bar).


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

I guess it's redundant for XCO use as most won't carry a multi tool, but I purchased an adapter for a Stan's Dart that threads onto the end of my EDC tool.









Plug Buddy | EDC Stan's Dart Add-on


This tool is an addition to your EDC pump that will turn your pump into a dart tool. The Stans Dart is arguably the best tire repair option and we designed this little piece to screw into place where CO2 cartridges can be stored inside the pump. Packs of darts can be found at most bike shops...




jankcomponents.com


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Jayem said:


> I got two of those, one is on my bike that I did the Iditarod 350 and White Mountains 100 last winter, in addition to other racing and riding. The other is on my FS fatbike which I've won a few DH races on (in the snow). These work fine. I think they had some earlier bad batches most likely, but I don't find their stuff to be horrible. The install is wonky, but if you can get past that, they work just fine.


I killed 2 of the old E13 cassettes in a few weeks each, as did nearly everyone I knew at the time which ended up being 7-8 total cassettes within about 3 months.

Then I gave e13 another shot with the Helix, 2 of them in fact. Each lasted about 1-2 weeks.

I have an XTR HG+ cassette on the back of my big bike that is 18 months old and looks brand new on the original chain so it's not like I'm brutal on drivetrains or something.

In fact I ran my previous Eagle cassette nearly 4 years.

I will say this, E13 deserves a lot of credit for great warranty service. But wheels, cranks, tires, cassettes all are known low quality products with many failures.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> I guess it's redundant for XCO use as most won't carry a multi tool, but I purchased an adapter for a Stan's Dart that threads onto the end of my EDC tool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’ve heard nothing but horror stories about the plastic Stans Darts. 

I’ve got Dynaplugs at the moment, although not the super expensive in bar kit I linked above!


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> I killed 2 of the old E13 cassettes in a few weeks each, as did nearly everyone I knew at the time which ended up being 7-8 total cassettes within about 3 months.
> 
> Then I gave e13 another shot with the Helix, 2 of them in fact. Each lasted about 1-2 weeks.
> 
> ...


I couldn't get the XTR/XT/SLX to last more than 1-1.5 years, under any condition. My E13 and X01 cassettes easily outlast them.

That sounds like some other drivetrain issue with your E13, given on some of these I'm riding for 16-20 hours straight...days in a row. I can't remember the last thing I put on my bike that lasted weeks...well now I do, it was a NOS CCDB in-line coil that blew due to old seals, but CCDB promptly rebuilt it.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Did anyone notice the new BMC Fourstroke (I assume that’s what it is) in the Pinkbike AXS article? Looks pretty trick. Still multilink from the triangulated rear end (no way for a flex pivot to work there)…


----------



## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

WR304 said:


> I’ve heard nothing but horror stories about the plastic Stans Darts.
> 
> I’ve got Dynaplugs at the moment, although not the super expensive in bar kit I linked above!


While I haven’t used Dynaplugs, Stan’s Darts have worked wonders for me — saved me on the trail multiple times and rode the tires for hundreds of miles afterwards. Drop it in the back pocket of the jersey for every ride, easy-peasy. So know you have a story about Stans Darts that isn’t a “horror”.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

cycloholic said:


> View attachment 1996876


I need 2.3 Race Kings in my life.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> I need 2.3 Race Kings in my life.


Did you ever run the old Race King Super Sonic back in the day?

On a 26” Stans 355, they were huge. Looked like a 2.4.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

tommyrod74 said:


> I need 2.3 Race Kings in my life.


You and me both.

A substitute to consider is the Cross King. I recently installed Cross King 2.2 & 2.3 after running Race King 2.2, and I'm extremely impressed. They really don't have any noticeable weaknesses. Rolling resistance increase from the Race King has been imperceptible to me, and I'm sensitive to it. Also, they are far more predictable than the old X-Kings.

Cross King 2.2:
668 Grams, 2.24" wide casing on 30mm internal rim.









Cross King 2.3:
662 Grams(!), 2.35" wide casing on 30mm internal rim. I think this is a freak tire for weight...we'll see how it holds up, but it rides well. Knob height is noticeably taller than the 2.2.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Could you please post image of race king 2.2 profile on the 30mm rim? 
I'm curious to see the side knobs angle. Would it still be on side for cornering or it become straight line rolling knobs.


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Suns_PSD said:


> Then I gave e13 another shot with the Helix, 2 of them in fact. Each lasted about 1-2 weeks.


I have a Helix cassette that has seen 8 months of abuse and poor shifting under load. It's been holding up fine. I got another and it's also been good for 2.5 months.Ihave been nicer to this one though. 



WR304 said:


> I’ve heard nothing but horror stories about the plastic Stans Darts.
> 
> I’ve got Dynaplugs at the moment, although not the super expensive in bar kit I linked above!


Stan's darts have worked really well for me. Saved many many rides. They actually work unlike bacon strips which I am like 3/11 for having them save a ride. 



tommyrod74 said:


> I need 2.3 Race Kings in my life.


Same. I really like my 2.3 Cross king. A 2.3 race king would align with my preference to run same tire front / rear.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> for quick thought, 36 to 42 is 17% change in ratio.
> Naturally, we'd want bigger change as the last step.
> 42 to 52 is 24% -> a little too big of a jump? https://gear-calculator.com/?GR=DER...36,42,52&UF=2330&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=KMH&DV=teeth
> 42 to 48 is 14% -> too small of a change? https://gear-calculator.com/?GR=DER...36,42,48&UF=2330&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=KMH&DV=teeth
> ...


Just examples The lower cogs would also need to be adjusted. This may still become visible as they reveal more about the new components.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

brentos said:


> You and me both.
> 
> A substitute to consider is the Cross King. I recently installed Cross King 2.2 & 2.3 after running Race King 2.2, and I'm extremely impressed. They really don't have any noticeable weaknesses. Rolling resistance increase from the Race King has been imperceptible to me, and I'm sensitive to it. Also, they are far more predictable than the old X-Kings.
> 
> ...


These are superb in the mud


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

tommyrod74 said:


> Did anyone notice the new BMC Fourstroke (I assume that’s what it is) in the Pinkbike AXS article? Looks pretty trick. Still multilink from the triangulated rear end (no way for a flex pivot to work there)…


It was hiding in plain sight. Looks WOW


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

brentos said:


> You and me both.
> 
> A substitute to consider is the Cross King. I recently installed Cross King 2.2 & 2.3 after running Race King 2.2, and I'm extremely impressed. They really don't have any noticeable weaknesses. Rolling resistance increase from the Race King has been imperceptible to me, and I'm sensitive to it. Also, they are far more predictable than the old X-Kings.
> 
> ...


We've been discussing this on the tires thread - I'm currently on 2.2" CK front, 2.2" RK rear. I really like the current CK. Might try your setup this fall.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Le Duke said:


> Did you ever run the old Race King Super Sonic back in the day?
> 
> On a 26” Stans 355, they were huge. Looked like a 2.4.
> 
> ...


I never did, but my friend did. They were indeed huge.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Brad said:


> These are superb in the mud


I had a great race a few weeks back on a trail I'd never ridden, very loamy and wet, rocky and technical. Typical Pisgah stuff. Front Cross King was excellent. I should have trusted it more early on, it was new that day!

If there was a 2.3" Race King available I'd be set for tires for 99% of my riding/racing, between that and the CK, and the two widths of each.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

tommyrod74 said:


> I had a great race a few weeks back on a trail I'd never ridden, very loamy and wet, rocky and technical. Typical Pisgah stuff. Front Cross King was excellent. I should have trusted it more early on, it was new that day!
> 
> If there was a 2.3" Race King available I'd be set for tires for 99% of my riding/racing, between that and the CK, and the two widths of each.


I recall you were also fond of the T5 Renegade and Fast Traks. How do the contis compared to the Specialized tires wrt to grip, rolling, and suppleness?


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> I had a great race a few weeks back on a trail I'd never ridden, very loamy and wet, rocky and technical. Typical Pisgah stuff. Front Cross King was excellent. I should have trusted it more early on, it was new that day!
> 
> If there was a 2.3" Race King available I'd be set for tires for 99% of my riding/racing, between that and the CK, and the two widths of each.


It's a pretty decent tire in terms of wear, too. 

What was the old tire that occupied this niche in Conti's lineup? It came in a 2.2 and 2.4, and I never got along with it. Was it the Mountain King before they remade that into a Trail/AM tire? Or the X-King? Whatever it was, it was super narrow for the claimed size.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

To me, RaceKing Protection (I currently have 3 sets) has the combination of best grip, weight and durability of any race tire I've ever used. Don't get me wrong, it's awful when muddy or wet, but I don't like to get that much dirty. And yes, we need a 2.3, 2.35 or 2.4 ASAP!!!


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Brad said:


> It was hiding in plain sight. Looks WOW


If lucky, I can get closer pics later in the week (i already asked). My teammates are there...

Looks suspension design stays the same, but shock moved to top tube possible for more travel in the rear. Dropper looks the same. Cable frame ports changed as they are not on the down tube behind the fork anymore. Rear triangle looks changed also.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Did you guys see the Bontrager semi-slicks with big side knobs in those pictures as well? Is that an updated XR2? Make that in a big fat 2.4, please.



https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/23221838/


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

XR3 
Bontrager XR3 Team Issue TLR MTB Tire | Trek Bikes


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Le Duke said:


> It's a pretty decent tire in terms of wear, too.
> 
> What was the old tire that occupied this niche in Conti's lineup? It came in a 2.2 and 2.4, and I never got along with it. Was it the Mountain King before they remade that into a Trail/AM tire? Or the X-King? Whatever it was, it was super narrow for the claimed size.


I think it was the old Mountain King. I never loved it either.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

tick_magnet said:


> I recall you were also fond of the T5 Renegade and Fast Traks. How do the contis compared to the Specialized tires wrt to grip, rolling, and suppleness?


I actually like this combo much better. The Cross King is such a better cornering tire up front than the Fast Trak (even being only a 2.2") that it's crazy. Both roll faster than the S tires. The casing feel is good for me, even at (relatively) higher pressures of 22-24 psi.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Nino also with the new SRAMs!


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

eb1888 said:


> XR3
> Bontrager XR3 Team Issue TLR MTB Tire | Trek Bikes


Similar, but not the same. The tires on Cooper's bike has less going on at the sides.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

I like the idea of jenny that she rides one tire in every condition. This is something I'm doing and I'm saying my athletes to do, thinking that you can go 100% everytime when you know your tire and thus the bike. When you are changing a tire everytime you need much time to feel comfortable to find this thin line between traction and crash. In the end of the day i don't thing that you are actually earning much from a "faster" tire but you can definitely loose if you crash.

PS. I'm amazed when i see front thunder burt in xc world cups, i mean, you can't turn with this ****!!
Ray is amazing tire.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Question, what's the idea behind the new SRAM hanger? Can you still bend it back?! If you crash, you crack the frame instead?


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

closer pics of SRAM









Prototipo de cambio SRAM sin patilla de cambio y un grupo completo nuevo


Este es el cambio SRAM sin patilla de cambio, su nuevo cassette, la llegada de la cadena Flat Top al MTB y más detalles que os adelantamos del futuro nuevo grupo de SRAM




esmtb.com


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Nuevo cambio SRAM sin patilla visto en Les Gets


Los ciclistas ya están realizando los primeros entrenamientos sobre el circuito del Campenato del Mundo de Les Gets y allí acabamos de ver el prototipo...




www.brujulabike.com


----------



## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

Eric F said:


> Similar, but not the same. The tires on Cooper's bike has less going on at the sides.
> View attachment 1996990


Those are the new XR1's, been indefinite ETA for a year now.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> closer pics of SRAM
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That one is really interesting because it’s a different groupset, possibly the new GX rather than XX1 on the other bikes. The derailleur is plainer with what look like plastic jockey wheels whilst the cassette only has a single aluminium sprocket, rather than the 3 aluminium sprockets pictured earlier:

Picture from carlostruco’s esmtb link: SRAM GX AXS?










Picture from Pinkbike: SRAM XX1 AXS?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Is there a clear picture of the new AXS shifter anywhere? All the spy shots focus on the drivetrain but the handlebar mounted AXS paddle shifter looks as though it could be changed too. There’s a picture on the Pinkbike page but with a clamp blocking the full view of the shifter on the handlebar.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Ptor said:


> While I haven’t used Dynaplugs, Stan’s Darts have worked wonders for me — saved me on the trail multiple times and rode the tires for hundreds of miles afterwards. Drop it in the back pocket of the jersey for every ride, easy-peasy. So know you have a story about Stans Darts that isn’t a “horror”.





cassieno said:


> Stan's darts have worked really well for me. Saved many many rides. They actually work unlike bacon strips which I am like 3/11 for having them save a ride.


Although they’re all tyre pluggers Stans Darts, Dynaplugs and bacon strips work in slightly different ways. 

The Stans Dart tip is intended to punch through the punctured tyre and that carries the “feather” dart plug down into the hole where it fills it with the dart tip remaining inside the tyre.

The Dynaplug has a metal tip with a plug “tail” attached housed inside a metal tube. This is stabbed right into the tyre puncture and then as the plug tool is withdrawn by pulling back up the metal tip catches on the tyre casing. The metal tube comes out and the plug remains fully drawn out through the hole in the tyre. 

The typical bacon strip plugger relies on a metal prong to stuff the bacon strip down into the hole, and then as the metal prong is removed the bacon strip hopefully stays in place in the tyre. 

This video shows the potential pitfall with the Stans Dart with comments below video also:






 
Lezyne bacon strip video:





 
Dynaplug parts and how to video:


----------



## forward (Apr 7, 2016)

__





The Final Countdown







www.bmc-switzerland.com


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> If lucky, I can get closer pics later in the week (i already asked). My teammates are there...
> 
> Looks suspension design stays the same, but shock moved to top tube possible for more travel in the rear. Dropper looks the same. Cable frame ports changed as they are not on the down tube behind the fork anymore. Rear triangle looks changed also.
> 
> View attachment 1996977


If this is Anton's Pauline's bike then I suspect the change is also to facilitate a 2nd water bottle cage on the downtube. it was something Pauline spoke to BMC about during the Cape Epic. She didn't always want to wear a hydration pack.
Pauline rides a small so almost no chance to get a 2nd bottle cage on that frame design in that small size anyway, so doesn't look like they solved her problem

<edited: PT inserted Anton for some reason while I intended to type PFP  >


----------



## forward (Apr 7, 2016)

PIT BITS - World Champs 2


Jolanda Neff's prototype SRAM Eagle AXS drivetrain in action.




www.vitalmtb.com


----------



## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

No idea if the new AXS is any better, but i love sram for coming out with new products that i "need", unlike Shimano who still can't make mtb groupset, seems like they are not even interested


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Wel I’m glad they’re doing to it as I come into the market for a new bike in 2023. Perfect timing


----------



## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Brad said:


> Wel I’m glad they’re doing to it as I come into the market for a new bike in 2023. Perfect timing


I'm not sure it will come to 23 bikes


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

I'm not sure 23 bikes come in 23😂


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Here we go...









Cazamos a la nueva BMC Fourstroke en el Campeonato del Mundo de Les Gets


La BMC Foustroke parece tener lista una nueva versión. La hemos visto en acción en el Campeonato del Mundo de Les Gets y estos son sus primeros detalles




esmtb.com


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Still with one bottle holder, automatic no from me


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Raikzz said:


> Still with one bottle holder, automatic no from me


The might incorporate another bottle holder. There is enough space on the seat tube and also on the down tube on larger frames.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

tommyrod74 said:


> I actually like this combo much better. The Cross King is such a better cornering tire up front than the Fast Trak (even being only a 2.2") that it's crazy. Both roll faster than the S tires. The casing feel is good for me, even at (relatively) higher pressures of 22-24 psi.


Thanks. I tried a Race King a few years ago and found the sidewall to be really stiff. My bike bounced over every root while also rim striking a lot which kept me from being able to lower the pressure. In fairness though, that was the previous version of the RK so I should give them another shot. 

BTW Amazon has a 29x2.3 Cross King Protection for around $46 right now. Being so cheap, I wonder if it's the older model. Anyway to tell the age and manufacturing date of the tire?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tick_magnet said:


> Thanks. I tried a Race King a few years ago and found the sidewall to be really stiff. My bike bounced over every root while also rim striking a lot which kept me from being able to lower the pressure. In fairness though, that was the previous version of the RK so I should give them another shot.
> 
> BTW Amazon has a 29x2.3 Cross King Protection for around $46 right now. Being so cheap, I wonder if it's the older model. Anyway to tell the age and manufacturing date of the tire?


The Cross King has only existed for a couple of years and had no previous model. There was an X King but that literally has a different name. The tire changed when the name changed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Le Duke said:


> The Cross King has only existed for a couple of years and had no previous model. There was an X King but that literally has a different name. The tire changed when the name changed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I had that old version of the RK. The new ones are nothing like those, even the tread changed.

I got my CK from Amazon, the price was awesome. I'd pay top dollar for a tire this good, though.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

tick_magnet said:


> I tried a Race King a few years ago and found the sidewall to be really stiff. My bike bounced over every root while also rim striking a lot


That doesn't make sense.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Jayem said:


> That doesn't make sense.


Ok I did a bad job of describing my experience. Basically, the tire bounced a lot. Not supple at all. No matter how much I lowered the pressure I couldn't get rid of the bounce. All that happened was I got lots of rim strikes. 

In contrast, I could find a pressure window on the Fast Trak where there was no bounce and no rim strikes.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

tick_magnet said:


> Ok I did a bad job of describing my experience. Basically, the tire bounced a lot. Not supple at all. No matter how much I lowered the pressure I couldn't get rid of the bounce. All that happened was I got lots of rim strikes.
> 
> In contrast, I could find a pressure window on the Fast Trak where there was no bounce and no rim strikes.


What is the TPI?


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

The current ones are 180. I think the ones I ran were also 180 but my memory is hazy. They were definitely higher than 120


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

tick_magnet said:


> The current ones are 180. I think the ones I ran were also 180 but my memory is hazy. They were definitely higher than 120


When they revise the Race King and introduced the Cross King, I recall that they removed a Protection layer under the tread. I had the old, and have the new, the new versions are much better when it comes to finding a pressure that works.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> The Cross King has only existed for a couple of years and had no previous model. There was an X King but that literally has a different name. The tire changed when the name changed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think xking and cross king are quite the same?! Maybe different compounds but pattern if i remember right was the same.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

tick_magnet said:


> The current ones are 180. I think the ones I ran were also 180 but my memory is hazy. They were definitely higher than 120


Continental usually adds TPI number from all the layers together.
On road, it's physically 110tpi 3 layers and they advertise it as 330tpi.

On Mtb I'd assume that to be 60tpi 3 layers.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

cycloholic said:


> I think xking and cross king are quite the same?! Maybe different compounds but pattern if i remember right was the same.
> View attachment 1997165
> 
> View attachment 1997164


I had the old X-King; it had a poorer ride quality and the compound wasn’t as grippy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Le Duke said:


> I had the old X-King; it had a poorer ride quality and the compound wasn’t as grippy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll echo that experience. Also the side knob design made for vague cornering and sudden loss of grip when leaned over. The new ones are great.

Also, the older Contis did have a very stiff sidewall, almost plasticy, which made it hard to find a good working pressure. The air volume wasn't huge so too low meant rim strikes; too high and you bounced off every root. Much better now.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

You guys have convinced me. I just ordered the Cross King 2.3. Also have some Pirelli XC RCs coming in. It will be interesting to do some comparisons.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

a closer look at Pidcock's bike









Las tripas de la bici de Tom Pidcock y su cuadro "raw"


Esta es la BMC Fourstroke de Tom Pidcock con todo el sistema de suspensiones electrónicas de SR Suntour, que ahora aparece bautizado como TACT. Imágenes exclusivas de su interior




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Here is a closer look at the new BMC...seems that two bottles can fit in the traditional down tube. 









La nueva BMC Fourstroke 2023 gana su primera Copa del Mundo


La pudimos ver por primera vez en el Campeonato del Mundo de Les Gets y acab de ganar su primera Copa del Mundo, así es la BMC Fourstroke 2023




www.brujulabike.com


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## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

Hexsense said:


> Continental usually adds TPI number from all the layers together.
> On road, it's physically 110tpi 3 layers and they advertise it as 330tpi.
> 
> On Mtb I'd assume that to be 60tpi 3 layers.


This, Conti adds plies together and reports total tpi.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

cycloholic said:


> I think xking and cross king are quite the same?! Maybe different compounds but pattern if i remember right was the same.
> View attachment 1997165
> 
> View attachment 1997164


There are subtle differences, note how the 2nd row in from the shoulder knobs is consistently overlaps the shoulder row on the Cross King, where on the X-King is alternates whether there is overlap or not.

With the differences combined it rides like a different tire. The X-King was spooky in that there was no warning when it let go.


----------



## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

cycloholic said:


> New contis??
> View attachment 1996236


Anyone know what shoes he wears? Currently in the market for some non-pointy toebox shoes. In the picture those look like they fit the bill. Just trying to find something that won't make my pinky knuckle rub or big toe joint hurt from being pushed sideways. It's a shame my feet are weired because I have a brand new, never worn pair of bontrager XXX that I won't be able to use.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Cerpss said:


> Anyone know what shoes he wears? Currently in the market for some non-pointy toebox shoes. In the picture those look like they fit the bill. Just trying to find something that won't make my pinky knuckle rub or big toe joint hurt from being pushed sideways. It's a shame my feet are weired because I have a brand new, never worn pair of bontrager XXX that I won't be able to use.


I'm not sure what Pidcock wears, but you might want to check out Bont - roomy toe box. I am using the Bont Riot + for both MTB and road, and like them quite a lot.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I've got wide, flat feet and I took part of my CO tax refund and bought some Australian-made Bont Vaypor Gs. I haven't received them yet but I'll post a review when I do and get some mileage on them.

They are heat moldable, have replaceable outsoles and have a 100% carbon bathtub-style last.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

Cerpss said:


> Anyone know what shoes he wears? Currently in the market for some non-pointy toebox shoes. In the picture those look like they fit the bill. Just trying to find something that won't make my pinky knuckle rub or big toe joint hurt from being pushed sideways. It's a shame my feet are weired because I have a brand new, never worn pair of bontrager XXX that I won't be able to use.


Looks like custom painted s-works recon.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Le Duke said:


> I've got wide, flat feet and I took part of my CO tax refund and bought some Australian-made Bont Vaypor Gs. I haven't received them yet but I'll post a review when I do and get some mileage on them.
> 
> They are heat moldable, have replaceable outsoles and have a 100% carbon bathtub-style last.


I’m interested to hear your impressions after a while. I’ve always been interested in these.


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

tick_magnet said:


> You guys have convinced me. I just ordered the Cross King 2.3. Also have some Pirelli XC RCs coming in. It will be interesting to do some comparisons.


Definitely let us know what you think. Tires are a very subjective thing. I haven’t spoken with anyone who doesn’t like these, however.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Pidcock uses S-Works shoes. Bont's are super good but also ultra stiff shoes. Toe box is wide at least in my road shoes


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

Skier78 said:


> Looks like custom painted s-works recon.


Thanks for confirming my suspicion and everyone else for chiming in. I'm in older specialized rhyme right now that do OK so it makes sense they are specialized. NOt sure I'm ready to jump into the Bonts without trying them on. Might be able to afford them if someone wants to buy my XXX's for MSRP but I don't see that happening


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

eb1888 said:


> XR3
> Bontrager XR3 Team Issue TLR MTB Tire | Trek Bikes


Just ordered one for the front of my race wheels. As I get older and slower, I realize having a meatier front tire is helpful for me to go faster around turns.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

cycloholic said:


> I like the idea of jenny that she rides one tire in every condition. This is something I'm doing and I'm saying my athletes to do, thinking that you can go 100% everytime when you know your tire and thus the bike. When you are changing a tire everytime you need much time to feel comfortable to find this thin line between traction and crash. In the end of the day i don't thing that you are actually earning much from a "faster" tire but you can definitely loose if you crash.


One of the most experienced racers I know only uses two tire options.
1. Their everyday tire.
2. A propper mud tire.

Their theory is that it is more important to know the limits of your tire well then to constantly be switching tires, but in the real mud a proper mud tire is amazing.


----------



## JimiMimni (Jun 2, 2008)

tommyrod74 said:


> I’m interested to hear your impressions after a while. I’ve always been interested in these.


Bont rider since 2016 here. The shoes are tough to beat for me. I've had two pairs of Vaypor S road shoes, Vaypor Track, and a pair of the Vaypor G, and had no fit complaints that heat molding didn't fix. I've particularly noticed that the heavier I've gotten the more my feet splay, and I've had to remold the shoes a couple of times to compensate for that. They're stupidly stiff given the quantity of carbon in the sole, and the entire "bathtub" chassis design. The claims that the upper doesn't wear seem pretty accurate. I only replaced shoes because I quit racing (and then lost access to) track, and ground down one of my road shoes. In addition to the moldable sole taking care of my flatter feet and new-ish bunion thing, the BOA dials are positioned lower along the top of the foot so they're less restrictive than other brands I've used, like Specialized.

One quirk that kind of bugs me about the Vaypor G is the ventilated nature lets dirt into the shoe. Frequently I'll find sand between my toes, or other such non-sense during/after rides that on the wrong day is annoying.

If you're worried about fitting them they can be remolded infinitely and will eventually get a great fit to your foot. Things to try to improve the molding process include: mold the shoes after a long ride so your feet are at maximum volume; wear thick socks during molding; accentuate problem areas of your feet with athletic tape, or similar, before molding to help clearance; don't be afraid to "punch" the shoe with a round implement like a screwdriver head while they're hot.

EDIT: For reference I have very low-arch, low volume feet that are, according to Bont's sizing chart, right on the cusp of "normal" and "wide" sizes. I've had decent luck in the past with Giro and Mavic shoes for fit reference. Bontrager and Specialized I couldn't ever get to work comfortably.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

LMN said:


> One of the most experienced racers I know only uses two tire options.
> 1. Their everyday tire.
> 2. A propper mud tire.
> 
> Their theory is that it is more important to know the limits of your tire well then to constantly be switching tires, but in the real mud a proper mud tire is amazing.


Gunn-Rita always? used Ikons.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Canyon bikes for this weekend...









Canyon personaliza todas las bicis de sus ciclistas para Les Gets


Todas lucen ahora en un radiante color plata cromado y cada atleta ha podido terminar de customizar añadiendo pequeñas pegatinas.




www.brujulabike.com


----------



## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

Cerpss said:


> I have a brand new, never worn pair of bontrager XXX that I won't be able to use.


Same, my new XXX are collecting dust in my basement because after trying to make they work/fit for months I gave up. Even sent them back and sized up but still hurt my feet. I’m loving my new wide Lake 238. Been in them for a few months and they’re great!









MX 238


Description The Lake MX238-X Wide MTB Shoe takes the 237 a step further for hardcore Adventure racers and rugged mountain bikers with more protection while keeping the legendary fit, especially for the rider with wide feet. Aramid protection and Helcor abrasion resistant leather panels are...




www.lakecycling.com


----------



## andrewbn42 (Sep 20, 2017)

LMN said:


> One of the most experienced racers I know only uses two tire options.
> 1. Their everyday tire.
> 2. A propper mud tire.
> 
> Their theory is that it is more important to know the limits of your tire well then to constantly be switching tires, but in the real mud a proper mud tire is amazing.


Cecile Ravanel? I remember she always seemed to run the same tires. I’ve been trying it and I see the benefits.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

What is everyone using for brakes nowadays?

I have been on the new xtr for a couple of years and I have not loved them. I would run out brakes on extended descents. I just switched to XT with a 180mm rotor up front and it is really good.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

MT7 + MT8 on FS, XTR levers + MT7 calipers on the child chariot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

My XTRs always weep fluid if I don't ride the bike for a few months. I bake the pads to get rid of the contamination, but I'm just using them till they die, since Shitmano doesn't offer any replacement parts for them either.

I have 2 full sets, so that might take a while, but I've got a Hope X2 in reserve that will go on the bike when the shitmanos really hit the ****.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Jayem said:


> My XTRs always weep fluid if I don't ride the bike for a few months. I bake the pads to get rid of the contamination, but I'm just using them till they die, since Shitmano doesn't offer any replacement parts for them either.
> 
> I have 2 full sets, so that might take a while, but I've got a Hope X2 in reserve that will go on the bike when the shitmanos really hit the ****.


I took the perfectly good XTR levers from my 9100s, shitcanned the calipers and spent $150 on Magura calipers for exactly this reason. I wouldn’t ride one bike for a bit and the pads would be shot. Terrible calipers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Jayem said:


> My XTRs always weep fluid if I don't ride the bike for a few months. I bake the pads to get rid of the contamination, but I'm just using them till they die, since Shitmano doesn't offer any replacement parts for them either.
> 
> I have 2 full sets, so that might take a while, but I've got a Hope X2 in reserve that will go on the bike when the shitmanos really hit the ****.


I wonder if it is a climate issue. I had that problem 10 years ago, but not now. And I have some bikes that sit months without being ridden.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> I took the perfectly good XTR levers from my 9100s, shitcanned the calipers and spent $150 on Magura calipers for exactly this reason. I wouldn’t ride one bike for a bit and the pads would be shot. Terrible calipers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have a pretty good supply of extra shimano levers and calipers, but it's just not worth it to me to keep them running. I get the wandering bite point issue quite a bit due to our colder temps and in general mineral oil doesn't do well here. On the XC race bike, this is much less of an issue...still, I'm transitioning my fleet over to non-shimano and non-mineral oil.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

I really like my Level Ultimates, but I don’t have to deal with long steep descents where I ride.

Quiet, reliable, good feel, and adequate power.

If it’s wet, I do prefer the Guide Ultimates on my fat bike.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

LMN said:


> What is everyone using for brakes nowadays?



The 2-piston Dominions that come with carbon levers.

Reach adjust is sort of limited, but otherwise I really like these brakes.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

mikesee said:


> The 2-piston Dominions that come with carbon levers.
> 
> Reach adjust is sort of limited, but otherwise I really like these brakes.


Can you make the stock pads quiet when wet?
While there are so many third-party pads for Hayes Dominion A4 and T4. There aren't any aftermarket pads for A2 and T2. So, the stock pads quality is important. IMO.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Hexsense said:


> Can you make the stock pads quiet when wet?
> While there are so many third-party pads for Hayes Dominion A4 and T4. There aren't any aftermarket pads for A2 and T2. So, the stock pads quality is important. IMO.



Haven't ridden them truly wet since ~April. Don't remember any noise then.

They've been wet from a few random stream crossings the past few months, but that's very different from spring/fall rainy rides. If it's raining I go boating...


----------



## rp86 (9 mo ago)

TRP Quadiems. Probably too heavy for serious racers but I love them. None of the issues I used to have with Shimano pad contamination, but still uses mineral oil and compatible with Shimano pad size.


----------



## Vamp (10 mo ago)

LMN said:


> What is everyone using for brakes nowadays?
> 
> I have been on the new xtr for a couple of years and I have not loved them. I would run out brakes on extended descents. I just switched to XT with a 180mm rotor up front and it is really good.


Also XT with 180 up front. The bike shipped with them. I use aftermarket rotors from Quaxar, and have had literally no brake issues in over a thousand miles. Pads gonna need replacing sometime soon.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Cheap iSpecEV 4pot Shimanos.
Beefy brakes  Nice big lever pivots that should last longer than the old XT 785's.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Magura MT8. I like them but do consider Shimano the best brakes. I had XTR on my old bike and loved them.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bicis de los pro: Canyon Lux World Cup plateada de Luca Schwarzbauer


Luca Schwarzbauer tiene lista su Canyon Lux World Cup con una espectacular estética plateada




esmtb.com





If you look closely at one of the pictures, my theory that you could swap rings of the PM might be true. Brad Copeland told me this back in February.


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

LMN said:


> What is everyone using for brakes nowadays?
> 
> I have been on the new xtr for a couple of years and I have not loved them. I would run out brakes on extended descents. I just switched to XT with a 180mm rotor up front and it is really good.


I switched from xtr m9100 for this season to slx 4 piston brakes with galfer discs and pads after getting tired of the xtr giving up on me. No problem doing 20min descents anymore, the xtr would always overheat in the end for me. The slx are heavy though, thinking about trying formula cura for next season, they are 2 piston but with much larger pistons for more brake power.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> Bicis de los pro: Canyon Lux World Cup plateada de Luca Schwarzbauer
> 
> 
> Luca Schwarzbauer tiene lista su Canyon Lux World Cup con una espectacular estética plateada
> ...


There’s a clear photo there of the SRAM AXS front shifter being used with the new rear derailleurs:










It looks unchanged from the current AXS shifter externally. 

That holds out the hope that the new AXS parts being shown may be interchangeable with the existing AXS parts, although even if the outer casing is the same the electronics inside may not be.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

LMN said:


> What is everyone using for brakes nowadays?
> 
> I have been on the new xtr for a couple of years and I have not loved them. I would run out brakes on extended descents. I just switched to XT with a 180mm rotor up front and it is really good.


I'm a SRAM guy and i really like the consistency of those(the cheap models are crap, ultimates are great). Last year I tried a friend's bike with xtr and i was amazed of the power. So i swapped to the latest Shimano xtrs. Those are the only Shimano i liked so far because are consistent. Day and the night compare to the 9000. If you need more power a servo wave brake has more power but good luck with Shimano wandering bite point!

Ps I would like to give a try to formulas!


----------



## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

I find brake performance very dependent on what grip is available from the tyres I'm running. For reference, one hour climbs followed by long rocky loose decents is the norm here...

On my 100mm Oiz with m9100s/160mm running Aspens/Reckon Race, it's only on the most demanding decents that I start to struggle with brake temp. But overall, the XTRs work well and I like the feel of them. However, with more aggressive tires, the brakes reach their limit much sooner.

The 120mm Revolver with m8120s/160mm with trail tyres are near bullet proof. Maybe a little bit of fade if really on it, but I put this down to my preference for small rotors more than strictly the brakes. What I absolutely hate about these brakes, the finned pad rattle. Have just put on a set of MTX Red, hopefully they live upto the hype and run quite.

I view bike builds as a 'system'. XC bike, brakes, tyres etc... Generally works well. If swap out a component designed for a different use, it brings to fore the limits of the other components. 

Have MT8s on another bike. Great brake when new, but the rotors seem to get worn out and noisy quickly. Don't love the lever ergonomics, however that's a personal opinion. Also had a set of SRAM G2s, came on the Revolver, hated the 'soft' feel, sold them off.


----------



## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

LMN said:


> What is everyone using for brakes nowadays?
> 
> I have been on the new xtr for a couple of years and I have not loved them. I would run out brakes on extended descents. I just switched to XT with a 180mm rotor up front and it is really good.


7 years on the same XTRs; used on 4 different frames now. They’d probably feel terrible to someone used to something fresh. They seem to be getting more fussy with age, but they do the job if I keep on top of bleeding. 

Might try Formula Curas next. I’d like something more “rebuildable”.


----------



## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Magura MT8SL. My favorite XC brake. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Slow switching all my bikes to Hope. E4s on the Enduro bike, XCRs on the race bike X2s on my OH bike. It helps that I live about 40 minutes from their factory. 

Also helps that they don't leak like Shimano (7 pairs and every one leaks - it's due to a poor o ring at the caliper join), nor get sticky and require **** custom machined lever pistons because SRAM machining has terrible tolerances.

Braking power is limited by friction at the tyre. Modulation is more important than bite.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

tommyrod74 said:


> Definitely let us know what you think. Tires are a very subjective thing. I haven’t spoken with anyone who doesn’t like these, however.


My Cross King came in. Visual impression is that those knobs are really tall for a cross country tire - about double the height of the Renegades. The weight was a pleasant surprise - only 714g for the 2.3 with the packaging. So I'm guessing a hair under 700 without the packaging. 

So with such high knobs, do you notice an increase in rolling resistance relative to other XC tires you've run?


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

700gr för the protection version?


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Yes. Protection black chili, 29x2.3. Yeah I was surprised too.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

cycloholic said:


> 700gr för the protection version?


My 2.3 weighed 662 grams without packaging.

I do not notice increased rolling resistance versus other tires, I run the shorter knob 2.2 on the rear with the taller knobbed 2.3 on the front.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

joebusby said:


> Slow switching all my bikes to Hope. E4s on the Enduro bike, XCRs on the race bike X2s on my OH bike. It helps that I live about 40 minutes from their factory.
> 
> Also helps that they don't leak like Shimano (7 pairs and every one leaks - it's due to a poor o ring at the caliper join), nor get sticky and require **** custom machined lever pistons because SRAM machining has terrible tolerances.
> 
> Braking power is limited by friction at the tyre. Modulation is more important than bite.


Realize of course that the Hope Tech 3 and everything before is seriously down on power compared to something like Shimano servo-wave and most of the other companies at this time. You can over-rotor the hopes to get more power, but in stock form they are pretty weak. The X2 probably isn't too different from the non-servo XTR, but once you put the servo in there the power isn't very close IME. I use hopes on most of my bikes, but I have to do things to make them work well, like 223mm rotor on the enduro bike (V4s). I have E4s on my Foes Mutz (primarily winter) and those were woefully inadequate for steep descents with 203mm rotors.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Raikzz said:


> Still with one bottle holder, automatic no from me


With the integrated dropper post a seat tube water bottle holder will be difficult if not impossible. What they need is a version without the integrated dropper and bosses for a cage on the seat tube


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> Here is a closer look at the new BMC...seems that two bottles can fit in the traditional down tube.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


at best 2x 500ml on the down tube in the large and XL


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Not much chatter on the new SRAM "direct mount" derailleur. Do "we" like it? Worried about ripping it off...and destroying lots of stuff? Ambivalent?


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Brad said:


> at best 2x 500ml on the down tube in the large and XL


I have the current version size L, and yes, I've taken the measurements and you can fit two small bottles on the down tube. 

Also, yes, the RAD almost guarantees no bottle on the seat tube. The mechanism for height adjustment sits very low on the seta tube plus the acces port for the RAD is at the bottom bracket.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

smartyiak said:


> Not much chatter on the new SRAM "direct mount" derailleur. Do "we" like it? Worried about ripping it off...and destroying lots of stuff? Ambivalent?


Worried ? No

the derailleur has a decoupling clutch that moves the lower knuckle and jockey pulley cage to move out of the way. The only thing that could rip the derailleur off is a stick or wire getting caught on the derailleur. I suspect the derailleur mounting has a break away system that allows the upper knuckle to decouple from the hanger to prevent frame damage. More details will be given when its launched so Im not worried because it does not affect me now


----------



## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

What's the benefit of the flat top chain? I saw something about oversized rollers so maybe the rollers have to spin slower so friction isn't as big of an issue? would the chain wear faster/slower? Would it wear the cassette/chainring faster/slower? I'm assuming larger rollers means you're stuck with certain compatible cassettes/chainrings?


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

carlostruco said:


> I have the current version size L, and yes, I've taken the measurements and you can fit two small bottles on the down tube.
> 
> Also, yes, the RAD almost guarantees no bottle on the seat tube. The mechanism for height adjustment sits very low on the seta tube plus the acces port for the RAD is at the bottom bracket.


Does that mean your current model could do the same (with an aftermarket specialty bottle cage of some sort)?

I ask because I may be swapping my Blur for a Fourstroke, for no good reason except change for change's sake, as one has become available (2022 current version, obviously) in a medium (my size).

How has your experience been with the bike?


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Is it 240 hubs?! They finally admitted that 180 is rubbish?


----------



## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

WR304 said:


> This video shows the potential pitfall with the Stans Dart with comments below video also:


Maybe a bad batch of darts? Or maybe it's because he's twisting the dart back and forth, causing the 'feather' to separate from the dart


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> Maybe a bad batch of darts? Or maybe it's because he's twisting the dart back and forth, causing the 'feather' to separate from the dart


There was a bad batch of darts in one of their early runs.

Even then I didn't find the darts to be any more effective than a standard bacon strip doubled up.


----------



## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

LMN said:


> There was a bad batch of darts in one of their early runs.


I must've missed it, despite being an early adopter. Still better to be lucky than good, but it's not good to be twisting the dart that much on install.



LMN said:


> Even then I didn't find the darts to be any more effective than a standard bacon strip doubled up.


I simply found them to be effective. I chose them for the convenience and speed by which I could plug a puncture and minimize loss of air.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but PFP is on a SID SL with additional material removed at the stanchion / crown junction. I wonder if it's a one-off or upcoming production change?


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Picture?


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

brentos said:


> Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but PFP is on a SID SL with additional material removed at the stanchion / crown junction. I wonder if it's a one-off or upcoming production change?


Cringe.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Cerpss said:


> What's the benefit of the flat top chain? I saw something about oversized rollers so maybe the rollers have to spin slower so friction isn't as big of an issue? would the chain wear faster/slower? Would it wear the cassette/chainring faster/slower? I'm assuming larger rollers means you're stuck with certain compatible cassettes/chainrings?


The flat top part only increase the surface of the side plate without interfering with how it mash with cogs and chainring.
However, along with being flat top. Sram flat top chain also have bigger roller diameter. That slightly bigger roller diameter further increase chain durability and strength. But it then foul the compatibility with cogs/cassette/pulley wheels designed for a more common slightly smaller diameter chain roller.

In general, Sram chain are slower than Shimano, friction wise. But they last longer. What was missing from Eagle chain is the absolute strength. Oversized roller plus more material on the side plate should handle E-bike full torque surge like a champ.


----------



## Hroot (Apr 5, 2019)

brentos said:


> Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but PFP is on a SID SL with additional material removed at the stanchion / crown junction. I wonder if it's a one-off or upcoming production change?











Una bici rígida campeona del mundo de XCO, Pauline Ferrand-Prevot repite la hazaña de 2015 y 2020


Pauline Ferrand-Prevot ha ganado el campeonato del Mundo de XCO con una bicicleta rígida. En 2015 hizo lo mismo en su primer mundial. También ha competido con neumáticos "camuflados"




esmtb.com





















Una bici rígida campeona del mundo de XCO, Pauline Ferrand-Prevot repite la hazaña de 2015 y 2020


Pauline Ferrand-Prevot ha ganado el campeonato del Mundo de XCO con una bicicleta rígida. En 2015 hizo lo mismo en su primer mundial. También ha competido con neumáticos "camuflados"




esmtb.com


----------



## andrewbn42 (Sep 20, 2017)

LMN said:


> What is everyone using for brakes nowadays?
> 
> I have been on the new xtr for a couple of years and I have not loved them. I would run out brakes on extended descents. I just switched to XT with a 180mm rotor up front and it is really good.


I’ve got xtr m9000s with 180 rotors at 180lbs. They do the job with the metallic finned pads. They are clearly under gunned for big tires, but when I’m running mezcals or aspens they don’t behave issues


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Jayem said:


> Cringe.


Maybe we can hope that it's actually material added to the top and bottom, and it's a production change.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

cycloholic said:


> Is it 240 hubs?! They finally admitted that 180 is rubbish?
> 
> View attachment 1997807


That wheelset specifically uses 240's. Check the website. 240's have been really good for me.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> Does that mean your current model could do the same (with an aftermarket specialty bottle cage of some sort)?
> 
> I ask because I may be swapping my Blur for a Fourstroke, for no good reason except change for change's sake, as one has become available (2022 current version, obviously) in a medium (my size).
> 
> How has your experience been with the bike?


Yes, but remember mine is a L, so don't know about the M. 

The bike handles amazing and overall construction is really good. As always, there are tips and trick to look for:
1. Always remember to clean/unclog the water drainer under the bottom bracket. Due to the entry port of cables, water gets in the frame easily. Or just put the bike upside down to let the water out. 
2. RAD dropper has been a set it and forget it. Works just perfect for me 
3. A M size frame most likely won't fit two bottles on the down tube. Long time ago a bought straps and bottle cage adapter for the RAD and can use the dropper if needed even with a cage and bottle on it. 
4. I had to claim my frame under warrant. Paint started chipping. October is the ETA for a new 2022MY frame. 
5. Headset uses the exact same bearings at the top and bottom. 
6. Depending on your style, I found the Fox Factory SC 32mm to need a volume spacer/token to make the initial compression more linear and in tune with the sock. 
7. Sag indicator on the frame saves you a ton of time.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I’m using Formula Cura 2 with 160mm sram rotors. Probably the best brakes I’ve used. Probably as good a my SRAM guide 2 ultimates without the annoyance of occasional differential piston movement and the maintenance of you want to avoid it.
SID SL does have some changes coming for 23MY outside and inside


----------



## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

carlostruco said:


> Yes, but remember mine is a L, so don't know about the M.
> 
> The bike handles amazing and overall construction is really good. As always, there are tips and trick to look for:
> 1. Always remember to clean/unclog the water drainer under the bottom bracket. Due to the entry port of cables, water gets in the frame easily. Or just put the bike upside down to let the water out.
> ...


Thanks for the thorough reply, I appreciate it! If I go that directions I'll likely keep my 34 SC with the Runt cartridge so I can adjust the feel easily. I'll probably run the rear at 100mm and front at 110 or 120mm. Remote lockouts and all that fun.

Glad the RAD dropper has been good for you, that was a concern. I'll likely Ride Wrap the whole thing to protect the paint.


----------



## preda_0 (Feb 18, 2012)

LMN said:


> What is everyone using for brakes nowadays?


Still no mention of the trickstuff piccolas?


----------



## forward (Apr 7, 2016)

New damper in SID SL.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

I've noticed that the Ghost team has stopped using the new RS TwistLoc. I haven't seen it in the open for ages. It's not due until the start of next year, but hopefully it's just a preference thing not a reliability thing.


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

mail_liam said:


> I've noticed that the Ghost team has stopped using the new RS TwistLoc. I haven't seen it in the open for ages. It's not due until the start of next year, but hopefully it's just a preference thing not a reliability thing.


I pulled the TwistLoc off my bike pretty quickly. The damper on my SID is twist-to-unlock, and the button to lock out the fork was too easy to bump accidentally, usually at the time you least want it locked out. It's totally backwards from what is intuitive. I replaced it with a $15 lockout remote from the giant online retail place, and it's been a huge improvement.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

forward said:


> New damper in SID SL.


I'm not surprised that raceday 2 is out so fast!


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Eric F said:


> I pulled the TwistLoc off my bike pretty quickly. The damper on my SID is twist-to-unlock, and the button to lock out the fork was too easy to bump accidentally, usually at the time you least want it locked out. It's totally backwards from what is intuitive. I replaced it with a $15 lockout remote from the giant online retail place, and it's been a huge improvement.


Yeah, luckily I've got a Spark that would be twist to lock (like all suspension should be lol). The new TwistLoc is going to be twist to lock and twist to unlock.

I've just installed a GripShift and am really liking it so far!


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

mail_liam said:


> Yeah, luckily I've got a Spark that would be twist to lock (like all suspension should be lol). The new TwistLoc is going to be twist to lock and twist to unlock.
> 
> I've just installed a GripShift and am really liking it so far!


If you can pair a TwistLoc with a GripShift, you would get a nicely balanced looking cockpit. However, the one drawback to GripShift that I don't care for is not being able to brake and downshift at the same time.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Eric F said:


> If you can pair a TwistLoc with a GripShift, you would get a nicely balanced looking cockpit. However, the one drawback to GripShift that I don't care for is not being able to brake and downshift at the same time.


I love grip shift but they don't work well with Shimano brakes(too short levers feels strange with gripshifts wider grip) and in muddy conditions.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm running GripShift and Shimano brakes (and Shimano derailleur and cassette) and haven't had any issues with fitment or shifting while descending. I don't think I have ever shifted while braking with any shifters lol.

I'm running with ESI grips which allows me a nice placement. Only downside is that the GripShift is firmer and harder on the hand than the grips. Most the pressure is on the heel of the palm on the ESI, but I feel friction/need to develop some thicker skin where the GripShift is.

It'll definitely look clean - almost Zirbel/DangerHolm esque - especially with my Yep Components Joystick. The TwinLoc works really well though so I will have to test things out.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Eric F said:


> If you can pair a TwistLoc with a GripShift, you would get a nicely balanced looking cockpit. However, the one drawback to GripShift that I don't care for is not being able to brake and downshift at the same time.


I just realised/remembered you guys run your brakes the "wrong" way around. That explains your comment more 😃. I am able to drag the rear with my left hand while still clicking down. I'd not want to be downshifting while descending something steep/technical enough to be using the front (or so late that I'm on both/switching to the front brake).


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

preda_0 said:


> Still no mention of the trickstuff piccolas?


Well you have to receive them first, which may be years from now.


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

mail_liam said:


> I'm running GripShift and Shimano brakes (and Shimano derailleur and cassette) and haven't had any issues with fitment or shifting while descending. *I don't think I have ever shifted while braking with any shifters lol.*


Coming downhill into something V-shaped (a stream crossing, for example), where I want to be in a lower gear as soon as I'm off the brakes, being able to do that downshift before I hit bottom is helpful. It's not something that happens frequently, but it happens.


----------



## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Hroot said:


> Una bici rígida campeona del mundo de XCO, Pauline Ferrand-Prevot repite la hazaña de 2015 y 2020
> 
> 
> Pauline Ferrand-Prevot ha ganado el campeonato del Mundo de XCO con una bicicleta rígida. En 2015 hizo lo mismo en su primer mundial. También ha competido con neumáticos "camuflados"
> ...


also looks like she is riding sharpie'd out Racing Ray and Ralph


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

What happened with the tires?!! She admitted Vittoria are s hit?😂


----------



## TwincamRob (Sep 20, 2014)

Noticed Nino was back on the traditional spoked wheels for Worlds. IIRC seems he only uses those at the most important races like Worlds and Olympics but could be wrong.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

The fixed spoke wheels are not as flexible on vertical forces and thus not so comfortable. Should be great on road racing though.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

ccm said:


> also looks like she is riding sharpie'd out Racing Ray and Ralph


I guess for the biggest races she is going to run the tires she's most comfortable with.


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## Skarhead (Mar 15, 2018)

TwincamRob said:


> Noticed Nino was back on the traditional spoked wheels for Worlds. IIRC seems he only uses those at the most important races like Worlds and Olympics but could be wrong.


Also he is using Yep components dropper post with joystick remote.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Being World Champs, like the Olympics, mean rides have more flexibility on material.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> Being World Champs, like the Olympics, mean rides have more flexibility on material.


Welk that’s what Jenny rissveds thought and look where it got her


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Brad said:


> Welk that’s what Jenny rissveds thought and look where it got her


What is that referencing? Was she riding non-sponsor correct stuff at the Olympics?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> What is that referencing? Was she riding non-sponsor correct stuff at the Olympics?


In Rio she rode sponsor correct kit but not Swedish cycling federation correct kit. The resulting **** storm is what lead to her mental met down and departure from Scott SRAM racing


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> What is that referencing? Was she riding non-sponsor correct stuff at the Olympics?


Have a look at this article about when she left the Scott team, at least partly as a result of the dispute between the Swedish Cycling Federation and Scott:









Olympic MTB champ Jenny Rissveds breaks contract to address mental health - CyclingTips


Reigning Olympic mountain-bike champion Jenny Rissveds and her Scott-SRAM team — the only pro team she’s ever known — have agreed to part ways so that she can focus on mental health issues rather than competition. One of the biggest names in women’s mountain biking — with an Olympic title, as...




cyclingtips.com





_"Rissveds, the Swedish national champion, was kept off Sweden’s 2017 world championship squad due to a sponsorship issue; the Swedish federation demands that athletes wear equipment provided by its sponsors at European and world championship events. In this case, the Swedish federation insisted athletes wear equipment provided by its sponsor, Swedish brand POC, although Rissveds is paid to wear Scott helmets and Oakley sunglasses. Compromises were offered that Rissveds could wear POC at the European championships but not the world championships, but she was ultimately left of the worlds team._" *Cyclingtips*


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> Have a look at this article about when she left the Scott team, at least partly as a result of the dispute between the Swedish Cycling Federation and Scott:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this dispute started after Rio already and culminated in the 2017 exclusion from the national team for breach of contract. SSR ( Frishy and co) wasn't too sympathetic to her plight either.
Most people on that team wear Assos national kit. For some reason there was no concession for the requirements of the Swedish Federation.She was caught in the middle, no support, meltdown. She was 21/22 at the time, a child.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This is a photo gallery of old XC bikes from the 2022 Malverns Classic:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-iconic-retro-bikes-at-the-malverns-classic-retro-show-and-shine.html



There’s some nice bikes there. I particularly liked this 1991 Pace RC100S with the Fat Chance Yo Eddy in MBUK colours a close second.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Heat mouldable saddles have been done before but this is a newer take on the subject from Reform saddle with their fully custom mouldable “Seymour” saddle:



https://www.reformsaddle.com/product/seymour-custom-mould-bike-saddle/












This consists of a fairly standard looking short nosed saddle but underneath the saddle is a plug point to connect a power pack!











This is the heater part for moulding the saddle.










The idea is that you put the saddle on a turbo trainer, attach the electric heating connection and then as you ride the padding of the saddle will mould itself to the shape of your body relieving pressure points for a more comfortable saddle.

What’s difficult to tell from photos is just how much padding there is in the saddle though. It’s a full carbon shell and carbon rail construction for the base part of the saddle so the heat mouldable padding could possibly be minimalist. There isn’t much of a central pressure relieving cutout either. There is a channel but not the full cutout seen on many current saddles.


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

Eric F said:


> Coming downhill into something V-shaped (a stream crossing, for example), where I want to be in a lower gear as soon as I'm off the brakes, being able to do that downshift before I hit bottom is helpful. It's not something that happens frequently, but it happens.


Brake, shift, and gently pedal to be ready to get back on the gas. Reminds me of braking, blipping the throttle, and down-shifting on the motorcycle. So satisfying when it all comes together seamlessly.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

GSPChilliwack said:


> Brake, shift, and gently pedal to be ready to get back on the gas. Reminds me of braking, blipping the throttle, and down-shifting on the motorcycle. So satisfying when it all comes together seamlessly.


There are times when I don't want to let up on the brake, even for a moment. Bicycles don't have the advantage of engine braking. Trigger shifters allow me to do it the way I want. GripShift does not. This is one of my reasons not to use GripShift. A good friend of mine with GS on his XC bike discovered the same issue.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Normal braking procedure is to not ride the brakes constantly, but let go momentarily so they'll cool down. It's in these normal in-betweens that you can get a bunch of shifting in usually. The having to shift while braking is pretty rare. Can you do it? Sometimes. Do you need to? No.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I have no issue with shifting and braking sequence with grip shift. You adapt to the nuances of the system. I loved m965XTR floppy shifters and rapid rise. I’ve used both trigger and grip shift from sram since and never had an issue. I don’t even think about it. I better not or I might just start running into problems


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Eric F said:


> There are times when I don't want to let up on the brake, even for a moment. Bicycles don't have the advantage of engine braking. Trigger shifters allow me to do it the way I want. GripShift does not. This is one of my reasons not to use GripShift. A good friend of mine with GS on his XC bike discovered the same issue.



Either you are incapable of adaptation (which is pretty unlikely -- you somehow learned to type) or merely unwilling.

Grip shift works great, and has a few inherent quirks -- just like every other shifting system.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Jayem said:


> Normal braking procedure is to not ride the brakes constantly, but let go momentarily so they'll cool down. It's in these normal in-betweens that you can get a bunch of shifting in usually. The having to shift while braking is pretty rare. Can you do it? Sometimes. Do you need to? No.


Where did I say anything about riding the brakes constantly? There are short sections where I really don't want to let off on the brake in order to shift in preparation for the next thing. Are these rare, yes, but they happen in places I ride. If GS works for you, and the things you ride, cool.



Brad said:


> I have no issue with shifting and braking sequence with grip shift. You adapt to the nuances of the system. I loved m965XTR floppy shifters and rapid rise. I’ve used both trigger and grip shift from sram since and never had an issue. I don’t even think about it. I better not or I might just start running into problems


I really didn't think about it at all, either, until my buddy with GS mentioned that it's something he noticed. Since then, I've realized that there are times when I brake and shift simultaneously. I could probably adapt to whatever my bike had, but it makes more sense to just stick with what I have, since it does what I want it to do.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

mikesee said:


> Either you are incapable of adaptation (which is pretty unlikely -- you somehow learned to type) or merely unwilling.
> 
> Grip shift works great, and has a few inherent quirks -- just like every other shifting system.


Cool. Glad GS works for you. Yes, I could ride a bike with GS just fine. On this one particular detail, I prefer triggers/paddles because it allows me to do something that isn't the same with GS. It's a personal preference. Why would I change my shifting format when what I have serves my needs? It turns out that everyone's preferences don't need to be the same.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Eric F said:


> Cool. Glad GS works for you. Yes, I could ride a bike with GS just fine. On this one particular detail, I prefer triggers/paddles because it allows me to do something that isn't the same with GS. It's a personal preference. Why would I change my shifting format when what I have serves my needs? It turns out that everyone's preferences don't need to be the same.



My point is that it is a personal preference.

Your earlier posts sounded a lot more hard-edged than this one -- basically amounting to 'grip shift doesn't/can't work'.

No one is suggesting that you need to change anything.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Jayem said:


> Normal braking procedure is to not ride the brakes constantly, but let go momentarily so they'll cool down. It's in these normal in-betweens that you can get a bunch of shifting in usually. The having to shift while braking is pretty rare. Can you do it? Sometimes. Do you need to? No.


Depends on your terrain. Rolling technical terrain, it is of huge benefit and I'll shift while braking many times. Long climbs and descent? Absolutely not of much benefit.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

mikesee said:


> My point is that it is a personal preference.
> 
> Your earlier posts sounded a lot more hard-edged than this one -- basically amounting to 'grip shift doesn't/can't work'.
> 
> No one is suggesting that you need to change anything.


My comments have only related to my preferences and experiences. There is one small thing that I like to be able to do that GS can't do in the same way. For me, it's a sufficient reason for me to not use GS on my bikes. That's pretty much the extent of it. If it doesn't apply to you, and where you ride, no worries. If you have reasons to prefer GS, same. Cheers!


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## utmtbrider (Dec 8, 2020)

Im struggling to understand how grip shift has anything to do with this thread.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Microshift Advent had a thumb and forefinger shifter and we run out brakes the proper way around here.

On the front brakes to slow for a corner to drop into a section and it's difficult to use that same finger to shift a couple of gears at the same time.
They soon bought out a thumb/thumb version.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

utmtbrider said:


> Im struggling to understand how grip shift has anything to do with this thread.


It's not. It's a detour from a discussion about the TwistLoc remote.


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## uintah (Apr 21, 2020)

Eric F said:


> It's not. It's a detour from a discussion


First time it's ever happened. 😉


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

utmtbrider said:


> Im struggling to understand how grip shift has anything to do with this thread.


This is a thread about equipment are using on XC bikes in 2022. 

…I, too, use grip shift on my XC bike.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Shifting while braking is a difficult thing to do using any system, but it does have its place. In racing it is quite common to come down a steep descent straight into a sharp turn that sends you up a steep wall. There is a lot going on in this situation, you are braking, you are trying to get into the right gear for exit of the turn, you are deciding when you are going to raise your seat, and you might be also be changing you suspension settings. I am yet to ride any system with ergonomics that allows me to do all of these things easily in a very compressed time frame.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Voice control could be nice. SRAM has electronic actuators in place with AXS and Flight Attendant. Just shout "up 2" before the ascent and you are on second gear with the seat up and suspension locked.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

arnea said:


> Voice control could be nice. SRAM has electronic actuators in place with AXS and Flight Attendant. Just shout "up 2" before the ascent and you are on second gear with the seat up and suspension locked.


I, for one, hope we NEVER see that.


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## TJSWE (Nov 17, 2019)

It could be quite fun whatching a group of riders trying that at the same time. Or maybe they could appoint a group shouter to control everyones gearing.


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## AndrewHardtail (Nov 2, 2021)

“Open the pod bay doors please Hal”


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

-Hey Google, shift up 2 gears!
-The time is 14.24


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## uintah (Apr 21, 2020)

LMN said:


> you are braking, you are trying to get into the right gear for exit of the turn, you are deciding when you are going to raise your seat, and you might be also be changing you suspension settings.


I have been thinking the same thing while reading this thread. Multiple times on every ride I am trying to do 3 things at once with my hands. Hadn't even considered the suspension making it 4. I'm sure I do it without even noticing. My ride today will now be a mental circus trying to pay attention to what I've obviously been doing subconsciously. Thanks a lot. If I crash, I'll blame it on you.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

EXCLUSIVA, el desarrollo del nuevo cassette SRAM para MTB


Os traemos más detalles, en exclusiva, del nuevo cassette SRAM. Su desarrollo y su construcción. Así se compara con el actual cassette de SRAM.




esmtb.com













Curiosidades, bicis y material del paddock del Mundial de Les Gets (parte 1)


El Campeonato del Mundo es una carrera donde se unen DH, XCO, Short Track, E-MTB y con equipos y selecciones. El día más importante del año para la mayoría.




esmtb.com


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

arnea said:


> Voice control could be nice. SRAM has electronic actuators in place with AXS and Flight Attendant. Just shout "up 2" before the ascent and you are on second gear with the seat up and suspension locked.


One step closer to, "I can't ride my bike because it won't connect to the internet."

No, thank you.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

uintah said:


> I have been thinking the same thing while reading this thread. Multiple times on every ride I am trying to do 3 things at once with my hands. Hadn't even considered the suspension making it 4. I'm sure I do it without even noticing. My ride today will now be a mental circus trying to pay attention to what I've obviously been doing subconsciously. Thanks a lot. If I crash, I'll blame it on you.


How often are you changing your suspension settings? I'm not judging, I'm curious. I ride a HT, so much of that is irrelevant to me, and it's rare that I activate my fork lockout.


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## uintah (Apr 21, 2020)

Eric F said:


> How often are you changing your suspension settings? I'm judging, I'm curious. I ride a HT, so much of that is irrelevant to me, and it's rare that I activate my fork lockout.


Depends on the trail but more often than you might think. Less often, the shorter travel bike I am riding. Lots of climbing, both sustained and rolling shorter punchy types around my neck of the woods.


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

arnea said:


> Voice control could be nice. SRAM has electronic actuators in place with AXS and Flight Attendant. Just shout "up 2" before the ascent and you are on second gear with the seat up and suspension locked.


let's skip voice actuation and go straight to mind control! Integrates with your helmet and when you think it, it just does it. Just limit it to drivetrain, suspension, seatpost because I think about braking too much



uintah said:


> I have been thinking the same thing while reading this thread. Multiple times on every ride I am trying to do 3 things at once with my hands. Hadn't even considered the suspension making it 4. I'm sure I do it without even noticing. My ride today will now be a mental circus trying to pay attention to what I've obviously been doing subconsciously. Thanks a lot. If I crash, I'll blame it on you.


I run twinloc on my xc bike. When I hop over to my fatbike occasionally in the summer and full time in the winter I keep hitting my dropper lever on accident when I subconsciously am trying to lock out the suspension.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Cerpss said:


> let's skip voice actuation and go straight to mind control! Integrates with your helmet and when you think it, it just does it. Just limit it to drivetrain, suspension, seatpost because I think about braking too much


I don't see that going well for me. My mind isn't exactly disciplined.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Eric F said:


> How often are you changing your suspension settings? I'm not judging, I'm curious. I ride a HT, so much of that is irrelevant to me, and it's rare that I activate my fork lockout.


I ride a hardtail too and never adjust the fork other than checking the air pressure every month or two. I do have the fork serviced once a year. I almost feel sorry for these folks having to adjust their suspension settings all the time...almost.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Stonerider said:


> I ride a hardtail too and never adjust the fork other than checking the air pressure every month or two. I do have the fork serviced once a year. I almost feel sorry for these folks having to adjust their suspension settings all the time...almost.


I occasionally use the fork lockout, but most rides, it never gets touched. I wanted to eliminate the lockout remote, but it turns out it's not as simple or cheap as one would think.


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

what brand gloves are XCO riders wearing?


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Lars doesn't wear any☺


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

idk if its an O or Q but that's the logo


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Prologo


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

cycloholic said:


> Prologo


cool ty!😃


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## uintah (Apr 21, 2020)

cycloholic said:


> Prologo


Was it the last world cup where the entire front row of the men's race had the same gloves on? Remember them commenting on it on TV.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

No clue!


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

67$ with 24$ shipping to USA.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Stewiewin said:


> 67$ with 24$ shipping to USA.


But think of how fast they will make you!!


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

That make a good excuse for not keeping up with world tour front line starter.
I'm slow because I keep using my $15 per pair gloves.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

I really like the naked hand feel until the grip is full of sweat 😂


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## uintah (Apr 21, 2020)

cycloholic said:


> I really like the naked hand feel until the grip is full of sweat 😂


Around here that has been about 38 seconds after entering the trails. Need fall to come soon and stay long.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Hands up if you've never got to the bottom of a teeth rattling descent to find the suspension is still locked out...


LMN said:


> Shifting while braking is a difficult thing to do using any system, but it does have its place. In racing it is quite common to come down a steep descent straight into a sharp turn that sends you up a steep wall. There is a lot going on in this situation, you are braking, you are trying to get into the right gear for exit of the turn, you are deciding when you are going to raise your seat, and you might be also be changing you suspension settings. I am yet to ride any system with ergonomics that allows me to do all of these things easily in a very compressed time frame.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Hexsense said:


> That make a good excuse for not keeping up with world tour front line starter.
> I'm slow because I keep using my $15 per pair gloves.


I will definitely be adding that to my long list of excuses. Definitely.


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

NordieBoy said:


> Hands up if you've never got to the bottom of a teeth rattling descent to find the suspension is still locked out...


went down a trail like maybe 2 miles DH found out fork lockout was on.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> Hands up if you've never got to the bottom of a teeth rattling descent to find the suspension is still locked out...


A couple of years ago on a new bike the position of lockout and dropper got swapped around. I had several wonderful experiences of locking out my suspension when I meant to drop my seat.


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## uintah (Apr 21, 2020)

Just recently I went 1k ft up a road locked out descended almost half way down a chunky 1k ft drop before realizing I was beating the crap out of myself. Got to the bottom by the river, started riding back up a two track jeep road and realized I was still bouncing all over the place. Just one of those days.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I rarely lock out my suspension, but when I do, I prefer Dos XX...

Wait, that's not it...

Do gloves have to match socks, helmets or shoes? I know a guy who has to match all three...in colors...brands will be kinda hard besides Spesh...Trek doesn't count...Bontrager was an acquisition...


----------



## uintah (Apr 21, 2020)

carlostruco said:


> Do gloves have to match socks, helmets or shoes? I know a guy who has to match all three...in colors...


Same color every day or different. I'd go different everyday if I could but my wife wouldn't let me have 14 sets. She only does laundry once every two weeks.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> EXCLUSIVA, el desarrollo del nuevo cassette SRAM para MTB
> 
> 
> Os traemos más detalles, en exclusiva, del nuevo cassette SRAM. Su desarrollo y su construcción. Así se compara con el actual cassette de SRAM.
> ...


The cassette construction makes it only possible to change the last three sprockets as a set since the 38 and 44 sprockets are steel and pinned to the largest 52t aluminium sprocket. With this construction durability will not be a problem but overall the cassette should be considerably cheaper to make


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

NordieBoy said:


> Hands up if you've never got to the bottom of a teeth rattling descent to find the suspension is still locked out...


I did that for the first time ever last year at my biggest race of the year. The entire 2nd half of the race I rode locked out. I never, ever lock out suspension when on a trail or racing, but I got all fancy this one time on a long uphill. thought I'd be all cool like the pros...then realized 1 minute from the finish I'd been locked out ever since and beat to a pulp. I'm never locking out again on a race. Period.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Stewiewin said:


> what brand gloves are XCO riders wearing?
> 
> idk if its an O or Q but that's the logo


There are actually two different gloves being worn that look very similar to one another. The ones with a “Q” logo are Prologo Energrip gloves whilst the ones with an “O” logo are Ergon HM2 gloves.

Prologo Energrip:








ENERGRIP


The best Road and MTB Cycling gloves




prologo.it















Ergon HM2




__





Produkte · Ergon Bike


Ergonomic products for cyclists.




www.ergonbike.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> EXCLUSIVA, el desarrollo del nuevo cassette SRAM para MTB
> 
> 
> Os traemos más detalles, en exclusiva, del nuevo cassette SRAM. Su desarrollo y su construcción. Así se compara con el actual cassette de SRAM.
> ...


That confirms the new SRAM 12 speed cassette does have revised sprocket spacing compared to the current 12 speed SRAM cassettes. The last 3 sprockets are now 38 - 44 - 52 teeth. That’s more like the Shimano sprocket spacing now, which works ok to be fair.

One other thing about the cassette is that it doesn’t appear to use narrow wide teeth on the 52 tooth sprocket anymore either. That could cause sync issues, so is likely an improvement.


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Hands up if you've never got to the bottom of a teeth rattling descent to find the suspension is still locked out...


I'm going with "no", that has definitely never, ever happened to me about a hundred times.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

WR304 said:


> That confirms the new SRAM 12 speed cassette does have revised sprocket spacing compared to the current 12 speed SRAM cassettes. The last 3 sprockets are now 38 - 44 - 52 teeth. That’s more like the Shimano sprocket spacing now, which works ok to be fair.


Okay, that's the best cassette progression so far.
Shimano is +6,+6,+6 t on the last 3 jumps. Making the last jump too small in percentage wise (regressive progression, +18%, +15%, +13%).
Old Sram 52 is +4,+6,+10 t on the last 3 jumps. It's a little too progressive at the end (+13%, +17%, +21%).
New Sram 52 is +6, +6, +8 t on the last 3 jumps. (+19%, +16%, +16%) Modestly regressive but closer to linear progression .


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Circlip said:


> I'm going with "no", that has definitely never, ever happened to me about a hundred times.


Not just that, but I use lock out somewhere around 50x/ride…and I sometimes confused myself. If there’s ZERO bob, I feel like it MUST be locked ou…..so I “unlock” it….but I really lock it…so I get more confused when I feel every single bump…andonandon🤣😂🤣


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Hexsense said:


> Okay, that's the best cassette progression so far.
> Shimano is +6,+6,+6 t on the last 3 jumps. Making the last jump too small in percentage wise (regressive progression, +18%, +15%, +13%).
> Old Sram 52 is +4,+6,+10 t on the last 3 jumps. It's a little too progressive at the end (+13%, +17%, +21%).
> New Sram 52 is +6, +6, +8 t on the last 3 jumps. (+19%, +16%, +16%) Modestly regressive but closer to linear progression .


Of these, the old SRAM 10-50 looks best to me. I wish someone would add an 11 between the 10 & 12. It’s a huge jump, and is often right around a static road cruise speed. Sometimes forcing a kind of crappy cadence for long stretches.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I know things can get hot and heavy in a race and you might forget to flip the lever at first and going all out you will accept a rougher ride, but if you are forgetting to at least take it out of lock and not noticing till halfway or the bottom, it may be a sign your suspension sucks.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Hexsense said:


> Okay, that's the best cassette progression so far.
> Shimano is +6,+6,+6 t on the last 3 jumps. Making the last jump too small in percentage wise (regressive progression, +18%, +15%, +13%).
> Old Sram 52 is +4,+6,+10 t on the last 3 jumps. It's a little too progressive at the end (+13%, +17%, +21%).
> New Sram 52 is +6, +6, +8 t on the last 3 jumps. (+19%, +16%, +16%) Modestly regressive but closer to linear progression .


I don't think linear makes any sense at all. Look at the amount of effort it takes to climb 20% grade (which is not even 20 degrees) vs. level. It's not a linear relationship at all, as the grade increases, the effort increases in a non-linear relationship, at least for me. 45 degrees is freaking impossible, etc.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Jayem said:


> I don't think linear makes any sense at all. Look at the amount of effort it takes to climb 20% grade (which is not even 20 degrees) vs. level. It's not a linear relationship at all, as the grade increases, the effort increases in a non-linear relationship, at least for me. 45 degrees is freaking impossible, etc.


This was my thinking as well. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

brentos said:


> Of these, the old SRAM 10-50 looks best to me. I wish someone would add an 11 between the 10 & 12. It’s a huge jump, and is often right around a static road cruise speed. Sometimes forcing a kind of crappy cadence for long stretches.


I second that! Even 10-45 in many occasions. And this gap between 10 and 12 omg!


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This has probably been out for ages already and I’d missed it.

Garmin have a mtb handlebar mount with adjustable tilt for short stems that attaches to the handlebar. It works with both 31.8mm and 35mm diameter bars.









Garmin Edge® Mountain Bike Mount


Be ready for any terrain with this mountain bike mount designed specifically for bikes with short stems. It’s ideal for off-road riding when you may not want your Edge bike computer mounted in front of your handlebar.




www.garmin.com














The advantage of this is that it doesn’t take up any space on the steerer, so can be fitted even if the steerer is cut short with few spacers, and also the angle is adjustable so the display can be viewed close to flat when riding. A lot of the available stem based Garmin mounts force the display of the bike computer to be steeply angled, making it hard to read or glance at whilst riding.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> This has probably been out for ages already and I’d missed it.
> 
> Garmin have a mtb handlebar mount with adjustable tilt for short stems that attaches to the handlebar. It works with both 31.8mm and 35mm diameter bars.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure this has been on the market for a year already


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More eye candy...









Curiosidades, bicis y material del paddock del Mundial de Les Gets (parte 2)


Una segunda entrega de lo más curioso que vimos en el Campeonato del Mundo de Les Gets. Desde prototipos a personalizaciones que dan envidia




esmtb.com


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

Jayem said:


> I know things can get hot and heavy in a race and you might forget to flip the lever at first and going all out you will accept a rougher ride, but if you are forgetting to at least take it out of lock and not noticing till halfway or the bottom, it may be a sign your suspension sucks.


Hey, first I get myself beaten to a pulp by descending on locked-out suspension, and now I get beaten to a pulp about my lack of suspension tuning skills. That's harsh man. Very harsh. (see what I did there?  )


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

WR304 said:


> This has probably been out for ages already and I’d missed it.
> 
> Garmin have a mtb handlebar mount with adjustable tilt for short stems that attaches to the handlebar. It works with both 31.8mm and 35mm diameter bars.
> 
> ...


Has anyone ever tried to run a GPS in that position? It's freaking impossible to look down that far while riding. I got big problems running it on my headset-cap mount, but I deal with it.


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Stewiewin said:


> went down a trail like maybe 2 miles DH found out fork lockout was on.


This is exactly why I ditched the TwistLoc remote on my bike. The SID on my HT, is twist-to-unlock. The button on the TL to lock the fork is really easy to accidentally bump at the wrong time - which I did frequently. I changed out the TL for a cheap lockout remote from the giant online retail place, and it's been perfect.


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Jayem said:


> Has anyone ever tried to run a GPS in that position? It's freaking impossible to look down that far while riding. I got big problems running it on my headset-cap mount, but I deal with it.


My computer is on top of my stem, just ahead of the steerer cap, which is pretty much the same as where the Garmin mount would put it. I don't have any issues. Visibility would be better in front of the bars like it is on my road bikes, but I don't really want to stick it out there like that on my MTB.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Eric F said:


> My computer is on top of my step, just ahead of the steerer cap, which is pretty much the same as where the Garmin mount would put it. I don't have any issues. Visibility would be better in front of the bars like it is on my road bikes, but I don't really want to stick it out there like that on my MTB.
> View attachment 1998412


Yours is ahead of your top cap, the one in the picture looks to be an almost zero stem or some funky setup that is real short and then it places the computer behind the top cap. It seems like you could flip around the mount so it'd be the other way, I was just commenting on actually having a computer over the top-cap and man is it horrible to use in that position. This is why for endurance stuff the bike packers try to raise it up as high or forward as possible, on extensions and the like.


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Jayem said:


> Yours is ahead of your top cap, the one in the picture looks to be an almost zero stem or some funky setup that is real short and then it places the computer behind the top cap. It seems like you could flip around the mount so it'd be the other way, I was just commenting on actually having a computer over the top-cap and man is it horrible to use in that position. This is why for endurance stuff the bike packers try to raise it up as high or forward as possible, on extensions and the like.


I'm running an 80mm stem, so I have some room ahead of the steerer. On a shorty stem, I see how the Garmin mount could be even further back then using a steerer cap mount. No bueno. If I wasn't concerned about bashing it, I'd definitely prefer to have it ahead of the bars.


----------



## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

if your Garmin is ahead of the bars you would have a harder time mounting a number plate


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

My biggest fear is ahead of the bars the bike computer is more vulnerable to impact with anything if you have an otb


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

ccm said:


> if your Garmin is ahead of the bars you would have a harder time mounting a number plate


I've seen it mounted ahead of the bars on a few bikes in WC races. Most mount on the stem, though.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I use that Garmin mount (until I broke it and my Garmin), I never had any issues with visibility. It's flexible enough that you can mount it in a ton of different configurations. Mine was with a 60mm stem.

This picture shows how I had it positioned


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Has anyone ever tried to run a GPS in that position? It's freaking impossible to look down that far while riding. I got big problems running it on my headset-cap mount, but I deal with it.


This picture shows a K-Edge Gravity Cap mount on a mountain bike:

It’s a bit like the K-Edge steerer spacer mounts orientation too in that as the LCD screen becomes ever more angled back and upwards it gets harder to read.

The issue with this, that that Garmin MTB mount addresses, is the angle of the screen. Even though it sits behind the stem the screen on the Garmin MTB mount can be flat so a glance down will have a clearer view. I think it’s often the angle more than the position that causes issues.











.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

cycloholic said:


> No clue!


Do xco riders use prologo seats too?


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I think so. I have heard the prologo dimension is excellent. But never tried it. My most comfortable seat is the Bontrager Aeolus. My trainer seat is the stupid expensive 3d printed carbon seat from specialized.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

cassieno said:


> I think so. I have heard the prologo dimension is excellent. But never tried it. My most comfortable seat is the Bontrager Aeolus. My trainer seat is the stupid expensive 3d printed carbon seat from specialized.


cool thanks how heavy is the Bontrager ? can use without padded shorts?


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

219g. Don't know. I never ride without a chamois.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Stewiewin said:


> Do xco riders use prologo seats too?


No clue! Not a fan of this company! 
I'm an ergon guy😂


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Cannondale factory racing uses Prologo saddles and accessories


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Gwendalyn Gibson has had an amazing year. She was what in the 20s most of the year? Came to the US and has been top 10. Blunk sort of popped out of no where also to just do really well.

Hopefully we see them next year (but the lifetime series may steal them from world cups)


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

New Sid?


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> New Sid?
> 
> View attachment 1998557


Yes, the 23 model


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Bicis de los pro: Wilier Urta SLR "campeona del Mundo" de Simone Avondetto


Simone Avondetto ha rodado con la Wilier Urta SLR con decoración de campeón de Europa por esta nueva Wilier Urta SLR con decoración de campeón del mundo




esmtb.com


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

cassieno said:


> Gwendalyn Gibson has had an amazing year. She was what in the 20s most of the year? Came to the US and has been top 10. Blunk sort of popped out of no where also to just do really well.
> 
> Hopefully we see them next year (but the lifetime series may steal them from world cups)


Grapevine is lifetime is a one and done series. 

I expect Gwen will be racing WC full time again and would be surprised to see Blunk too.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

LMN said:


> Grapevine is lifetime is a one and done series.


Full TV coverage for every race!
Oh, oops...


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

LMN said:


> Grapevine is lifetime is a one and done series.


Payson mentioned he heard lifetime was planning on doing this again. But, I'll believe it when the announce it. Sounds like wishful thinking to me.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I’d love to see Gwen and Savilia in the WC next year. Both have brought a stronger US dimension to the racing and their success seems to be motivating Kate to get back to her prior performances.


----------



## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

brentos said:


> Of these, the old SRAM 10-50 looks best to me. I wish someone would add an 11 between the 10 & 12. It’s a huge jump, and is often right around a static road cruise speed. Sometimes forcing a kind of crappy cadence for long stretches.


You are crusing around at a speed of ~40kph?
I wholeheartedly agree that the step between the 10 and the 12t is awful but your cruising speed seems to be out of this world unless you prefer a very low cadence.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Cadence is personal. 

My friend said he spin out like crazy on road... at 85rpm.

Meanwhile there's me who average 92rpm for the whole ride with 170rpm max.


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Jayem said:


> Realize of course that the Hope Tech 3 and everything before is seriously down on power compared to something like Shimano servo-wave and most of the other companies at this time. You can over-rotor the hopes to get more power, but in stock form they are pretty weak. The X2 probably isn't too different from the non-servo XTR, but once you put the servo in there the power isn't very close IME. I use hopes on most of my bikes, but I have to do things to make them work well, like 223mm rotor on the enduro bike (V4s). I have E4s on my Foes Mutz (primarily winter) and those were woefully inadequate for steep descents with 203mm rotors.


I don't need lightspeed stopping power for doing bikepark rollercoaster laps - the tech 3s are on a big mountain bike for technical alpine descents. You can't get up much speed - but you need the finesse to manage traction and grip much more. If you aren't getting anything from your e4s you honestly just need better pads.









The best MTB disc brake you can buy


Disc brakes now have it harder than ever before: we’re riding faster, tires bite harder, and the trails we ride are getting tougher. To go fast, we need to be able to go slow, so which disc brake is best? Riding fast is one of the best feelings: we argue over KOM’s in the pub […]




enduro-mtb.com





Tech 3 E4s test as quicker to slow in both categories than nearly every other brake but trickstuffs. The whole 'hope has no power' thing is just a meme.


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

WR304 said:


> This picture shows a K-Edge Gravity Cap mount on a mountain bike:
> 
> It’s a bit like the K-Edge steerer spacer mounts orientation too in that as the LCD screen becomes ever more angled back and upwards it gets harder to read.
> 
> ...


I have my wahoo on the top cap like this and it's fine but maybe Garmin screens are worse at those viewing angles. It also works out at the lightest solution as about 25g in total is lighter than the lightest top cap and separate computer mount. 

Only time I'd consider putting it out front is for marathon - when you might get a little aero benefit!


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

cycloholic said:


> New Sid?
> 
> View attachment 1998557


Here's to hoping 160mm brake rotor compatibility on 120mm travel.


----------



## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Why?


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Why not?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Raikzz said:


> Why?


Because 180mm rotors rub if the frame isn't stiff enough and most XC bikes pretty darn close to being not stiff enough. That is why I run 140mm rotors on my road bike. On hard efforts out of the saddle 160mm rotors rub on the pads. I know it is barely costing me any watts, but it sort of soul destroying to be hear your brakes rub when you are suffering.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LMN said:


> Because 180mm rotors rub if the frame isn't stiff enough and most XC bikes pretty darn close to being not stiff enough. That is why I run 140mm rotors on my road bike. On hard efforts out of the saddle 160mm rotors rub on the pads. I know it is barely costing me any watts, but it sort of soul destroying to be hear your brakes rub when you are suffering.


Completely true and agree. I don't use 140mm on road, thought the rubbing is there. I keep extra wheelsets along extra rotors to swap between road and MTB. XTR are still the most beautiful rotors I've ever seen.


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

The downside is that the thermal load on road bikes is much higher as the speeds are much higher - smaller rotors can't cope with that so transport more of the heat to the hubs (not good for bearings and expansion of hubs leads to drag) and to the fluid (making the brakes drag).

So better to just set your brake pads further apart. and use the larger discs.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

joebusby said:


> The downside is that the thermal load on road bikes is much higher as the speeds are much higher - smaller rotors can't cope with that so transport more of the heat to the hubs (not good for bearings and expansion of hubs leads to drag) and to the fluid (making the brakes drag).
> 
> So better to just set your brake pads further apart. and use the larger discs.


I am not sure this true.


When I am sitting at the top 1000m descend I have about 750Kj of potential energy. Assuming I am going to come to a stop at the bottom that energy is going to be disipated in 3-places, Rolling resistance, Wind resistance, and braking forces.

Rolling resistance depends on the length of the hill and coefficient of rolling friction. I would approximate guess 100Kj for both MTB and road. MTB is shorter distance but more friction, whereas the road is longer but less friction.

On the road if you are comfortable opening up the brakes most the rest of the energy is lost due to wind resistnace. Even if there is a series of hairpins where I am slowing from 70kph to 35kph my brakes are only dealing with 10Kj of energy per braking period (which would raise the temperature of 1L of water 2.5C). Our brakes are easily able to dispate that heat between each switchback.

But on a mountain bike you are constantly on the brakes, you are going slow so wind resistance isn't significant. The brakes have to disipate a huge portion of that energy. Very little time is spent off the brakes, they don't get the chance to cool. Brake fade is an issue.

I have spent significant time in Alps on my road bike and I descend aggressively. I never once suffered from brake fade, I did kill a set of pads in about 6 weeks though.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

joebusby said:


> The downside is that the thermal load on road bikes is much higher as the speeds are much higher - smaller rotors can't cope with that so transport more of the heat to the hubs (not good for bearings and expansion of hubs leads to drag) and to the fluid (making the brakes drag).
> 
> So better to just set your brake pads further apart. and use the larger discs.


In general, yes. I do put a 160mm on for some races, partly because the 32 fork just twists so badly with disc brakes, but I have to use one of the older ice-tech rotors with all the finned area. I've tried it the other way and I'll bake the pads/rotor on bigger descents in XC races. Luckily, around here, there aren't many of these and I generally leave the 160 on, but if I go to any bigger races down in the lower 48, I usually need the bigger rotor, especially because non-servo shimano is weaker, so you gotta add some weight somewhere to deal with the bigger descents and might as well add it somewhere that will add power and cooling. I leave a 180 on for training and general riding on the bike. 

Still, being able to switch out to a race-day wheelset with a light 160 rotor might have some validity in XC racing where we aren't subjecting the bike to this every day.


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

LMN said:


> Because 180mm rotors rub if the frame isn't stiff enough and most XC bikes pretty darn close to being not stiff enough. That is why I run 140mm rotors on my road bike. On hard efforts out of the saddle 160mm rotors rub on the pads. I know it is barely costing me any watts, but it sort of soul destroying to be hear your brakes rub when you are suffering.


Forgive my ignorance, would this not be a wheel stiffness issue, not fork?




I can't quite visualise how the fork could flex in the bottom 10cm or whatever to the hub? I run a Fox 34 but haven't really noticed rub from hard efforts. Maybe I'm just not strong enough though, or not listening closely enough.

I'd never go back to 160mm rotors now on my bike, it's capability and the trails I take it down would be much less fun with smaller rotors. I'd probably go 160mm rotor if building an out and out non technical XC race bike, something like a Scalpel or Supercal.


----------



## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

LMN said:


> Because 180mm rotors rub if the frame isn't stiff enough and most XC bikes pretty darn close to being not stiff enough. That is why I run 140mm rotors on my road bike. On hard efforts out of the saddle 160mm rotors rub on the pads. I know it is barely costing me any watts, but it sort of soul destroying to be hear your brakes rub when you are suffering.


Never had a problem with brake rub with 180 rotors, when caliper is perfectly aligned it isn't a problem, especially on 34,35mm forks, atleast not with my weight.

On road bike , 90% time the rubbing is caused because fork brake mount isn't perfectly straight, park tool have a tool for that. If it still rubs then XTR rotors solve the problem.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

mail_liam said:


> Forgive my ignorance, would this not be a wheel stiffness issue, not fork?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Flex issues tend to be more on the rear of the bike than the fork. A little bit of twisting of the rear stays brings the rotor in contact with pads.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Peraonally I am running a 180mm front and 160mm rear and it works great. 160mm on the front is also good for me 98% of the time, it is only in extended steep descents where I reach the limit of stopping power.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

chilla13 said:


> You are crusing around at a speed of ~40kph?
> I wholeheartedly agree that the step between the 10 and the 12t is awful but your cruising speed seems to be out of this world unless you prefer a very low cadence.


It's terrain dependent, but it is a huge spread in ratio. It's far less of an issue on 10-50 (12sp) than it was on 10-42 (11sp) because you can run a bigger ring and still get that climbing gear. Steep technical climbs used to mandate that I run a 30T ring...and so the 10-12t transition was right at 32 kph.

It's more isolated now to instances of slight downhills, tailwinds, and group road/gravel rides. It's less often, but that transition still rears it's ugly head. I'd honestly rather have the 10 be an 11, the 10 is relatively inefficient anyway.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

brentos said:


> It's terrain dependent, but it is a huge spread in ratio. It's far less of an issue on 10-50 (12sp) than it was on 10-42 (11sp) because you can run a bigger ring and still get that climbing gear. Steep technical climbs used to mandate that I run a 30T ring...and so the 10-12t transition was right at 32 kph.
> 
> It's more isolated now to instances of slight downhills, tailwinds, and group road/gravel rides. It's less often, but that transition still rears it's ugly head. I'd honestly rather have the 10 be an 11, the 10 is relatively inefficient anyway.


I remember racing Wisky 50 with a 32T chainring and a 11-45 cassette. I was absolutely cursing that 32x11 on the downhill 5km pavement rip into town.

I find when I need that top gear I need it to be bigger, a lot bigger.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

30 is only 7% lower than 32. Less than the half a gear change per rear gear on mtb cassette.

Today I spin downhill on 32x10 gear on road just for fun.
I reached 51 km/h without actually hitting my max cadence.

32 km/h with my usual cadence would 32x14 or 32x16. 3rd or 4th gear from hardest on mtb cassette.


----------



## pk1 (Mar 25, 2010)

WR304 said:


> I've tried to take a picture of what the Prologo Energrip padding looks like close up. It's rows of small rubbery hollow spikes. The padding is variable thickness, being thickest under the outside of the palm and then much thinner across the front areas of the palm just behing the fingers.
> 
> View attachment 1994787
> 
> ...


awesome, thanks!
those 2 specialized gloves happen to be what i currently have too. is the sizing similar to specialized?


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

LMN said:


> I remember racing Wisky 50 with a 32T chainring and a 11-45 cassette. I was absolutely cursing that 32x11 on the downhill 5km pavement rip into town.
> 
> I find when I need that top gear I need it to be bigger, a lot bigger.


I've only done it with a 10-42 every time (except WAY long ago like 2009), but it was more about keeping the cramps off than having all the gears at that point. Also staying in the draft. Well, staying in a draft and not cramping at the same time. Having raced a lot with both, I would agree 11 is just a little too low, but 10 does the trick for me. Even when racing DH it's usually too high, you can get more pedal strokes in with a slightly lower gear and go faster, rather than pedal (slower) with more resistance. I can see if you have real high watts, going to 34t would make sense. I assume that's what most of the pros are running. 

For me, that 10t SRAM gear splits the difference perfectly. I have the 9t on a few E13 cassettes and I can tell you honestly I could live just fine with out that. It's just too high for most every situation and then when you even think about using it, you are wasting so much energy due to the poor efficiency, you keep going back up a gear and thinking you are crazy as you try to figure out why it's not catching up or going faster.


----------



## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

LMN said:


> Peraonally I am running a 180mm front and 160mm rear and it works great.


So, it's like an enduro bike then


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

is there a 9s cassette 11-50 or 10-51, or 10-52 in 400 gram or less?


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

arnea said:


> So, it's like an enduro bike then


Enduro bikes are running 220/200 now. I


----------



## utmtbrider (Dec 8, 2020)

cassieno said:


> Enduro bikes are running 220/200 now. I


He might be alluding to 180mm/160mm travel suspension.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

cassieno said:


> Enduro bikes are running 220/200 now. I


Yeah, I still have trouble believing someone was riding a park with a 180mm front rotor. Any park I've ever ridden, I'd toast it right away. I mean, if you ride slow on easy trails, you might be able to get away with it, but I can get that without riding a park.


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

utmtbrider said:


> He might be alluding to 180mm/160mm travel suspension.


Yeah....I guess I am a little slow today


----------



## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

Jayem said:


> Yeah, I still have trouble believing someone was riding a park with a 180mm front rotor. Any park I've ever ridden, I'd toast it right away. I mean, if you ride slow on easy trails, you might be able to get away with it, but I can get that without riding a park.


If you brake less on hard trails, 180/160 also works just fine. Even in bike parks in the Alps. 

Granted, have not yet ruled out whether riding to the top of the park has a pre-cooling effect, however.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

RexRacerX said:


> If you brake less on hard trails, 180/160 also works just fine. Even in bike parks in the Alps.
> 
> Granted, have not yet ruled out whether riding to the top of the park has a pre-cooling effect, however.


No way I’d ride a 180/160mm set of rotors at a lift-served bike park in North America.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

are there spd pedals light like xtr but cheap price?


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Yes. Used xtr.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Just light? 
There are many lighter pedals.

But if you want to find something that has as thin stack height as XTR.
I don't see any viable option.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Stewiewin said:


> are there spd pedals light like xtr but cheap price?


You used XTR and light in the same sentence….??!!


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Brad said:


> You used XTR and light in the same sentence….??!!


That's like using Xpedo and retention in the same sentence.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Why does almost no one uses Crank Brothers? I know they are expensive, but super light!!! I've had a pair for 10 years now without any issues with just the regular open and grease every couple of months. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they are still with original bearings!!!


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> Why does almost no one uses Crank Brothers? I know they are expensive, but super light!!! I've had a pair for 10 years now without any issues with just the regular open and grease every couple of months. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they are still with original bearings!!!


I still have a set of 3ti eggbeaters in my parts bin. I moved back to ATAC because the eggbeaters need too interface with the lugs of the show to be really effective. My set predate that design update. I’ve never had a bearing issue with them and I think they’re on their second set . The first lasted probably 6 years.
The other challenge with the eggbeater is if you hit a rock they eject your shoe binding


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

carlostruco said:


> Why does almost no one uses Crank Brothers? I know they are expensive, but super light!!! I've had a pair for 10 years now without any issues with just the regular open and grease every couple of months. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they are still with original bearings!!!


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Part if it is I feel the design that ejects your foot from the pedal when the bottom contacts a rock is dangerous (works like a scissor and compressing the bottom opens the top). I also don't like that the retention is based more on angular deflection. This is the tradeoff to float, more float means more angle required before release and while that's fine for "normal" releases, I find slow-speed "yank out" releases tend to get a lot more dangerous too, especially when you try to twist your foot the opposite direction to release. While that's fairly rare...it does happen to me and it's not worth the consequences, even though it's a rare occurrence.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Yea, there's nothing like having a pedal attached to your shoe, but separated from your bike. That's a bonus over the cleat ejection seat.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Jayem said:


> View attachment 1999477


I once had a heated debate with the engineer responsible for the pedal. I offered several design changes that would allow preload and retain the pedal body but he refused to accept any options. If not carefully maintained they still fail in the same way. They’re light because they have one tiny bearing and a bush. If the bearing fails there’s nothing to stop the pedal body separating from the axle. Even TIME Xpresso Road pedals have solved this problem


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

Brad said:


> I once had a heated debate with the engineer responsible for the pedal. I offered several design changes that would allow preload and retain the pedal body but he refused to accept any options. If not carefully maintained they still fail in the same way. They’re light because they have one tiny bearing and a bush. If the bearing fails there’s nothing to stop the pedal body separating from the axle. Even TIME Xpresso Road pedals have solved this problem


Heated debate? I would have told the engineer responsible the pedals suck. I also have three pairs still in a box somewhere in my garage. Failure mode for a 135 lb racer? One set the ti spring broke. On the other two the retention wings developed play and they eventually broke. I kept up on bearing and bushing maintenance (note that has nothing to do with how my pedals failed but it's another knock on the durability of those pedals). The pedals were between one and two years old. I've used XTR or LOOK since. XTR has the migrating seal issue which could be easily fixed by updating the spindle recess and seal lip but alas Shimano can't be bothered. 

I remember 15 years ago or so when Crank Brothers introduced their foam bolt on grips and one of the commenters (here on mtbr) said something to the effect that someway, somehow Crank Brothers will screw up a grip. So true...


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

dysfunction said:


> Yea, there's nothing like having a pedal attached to your shoe, but separated from your bike.


Ah yes, had that with my XT Trail's.


----------



## utmtbrider (Dec 8, 2020)

NordieBoy said:


> Ah yes, had that with my XT Trail's.


A small zip tie around the pedal axle works fantastic.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

BoyinBlue said:


> Heated debate? I would have told the engineer responsible the pedals suck. I also have three pairs still in a box somewhere in my garage. Failure mode for a 135 lb racer? One set the ti spring broke. On the other two the retention wings developed play and they eventually broke. I kept up on bearing and bushing maintenance (note that has nothing to do with how my pedals failed but it's another knock on the durability of those pedals). The pedals were between one and two years old. I've used XTR or LOOK since. XTR has the migrating seal issue which could be easily fixed by updating the spindle recess and seal lip but alas Shimano can't be bothered.
> 
> I remember 15 years ago or so when Crank Brothers introduced their foam bolt on grips and one of the commenters (here on mtbr) said something to the effect that someway, somehow Crank Brothers will screw up a grip. So true...


I was sponsored by the local distributor so I compelled to be ….gentle.
CB has managed to screw up so many simple things , yet they can also produce some fantastic product with no equal. I’ve got a mini pump that works. The model name is king worn of but I think I got it in 2003. Their dropper post lever is brilliant.
Conceptually the eggbeater is amazingly simple but a few more grams to ensure the pedal body can’t come off when nor required shouldn’t be a or to ask


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

tommyrod74 said:


> I run the LSC fully open and rely on the secondary air spring to support me during hard braking and out of the saddle efforts. Understanding of course that the LSC is never truly “off” just as open as the adjustment range allows.
> 
> Recommended main spring air pressure (stock SC 34 configuration) for my weight is (IIRC) around 78 psi. I run 60 in the “low” chamber of the Runt and 120 in the “high”. Amazingly smooth on small bumps but will not blow through the midrange without an appropriate impact. Great support through compression dips and under hard braking.
> 
> ...


You still running 60 low and 120 high at 160 pounds? Or have you tweaked psi since this post?
I'm 165 pounds kitted up. My current psi is 75 to achieve 20% fork sag. Diaz instructions instructs 10 psi lower as base psi then 2x for high psi: 65 and 130.

Or have you tweaked your psi lately for your weight?


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

carlostruco said:


> Why does almost no one uses Crank Brothers? I know they are expensive, but super light!!! I've had a pair for 10 years now without any issues with just the regular open and grease every couple of months. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they are still with original bearings!!!


Because I like low stack height.
XTR Race with its spd cleats is one of the thinnest XC pedal available. Many parts on my bikes are XT/SLX/ X01/GX (not top level). But pedal have to be XTR. Even XT is thicker than XTR.

Crank Brothers pedal stack height isn't low.


----------



## Cardy George (Dec 3, 2020)

carlostruco said:


> Why does almost no one uses Crank Brothers? I know they are expensive, but super light!!! I've had a pair for 10 years now without any issues with just the regular open and grease every couple of months. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they are still with original bearings!!!


I had eggbeaters on my roadie, broke three springs.

When I returned to MTB after 20ish years I bought Candys because they looked closest to ATACs. I could never get cleat height right. I either couldn't click in, or it felt like I was standing on a ball joint.

Put my 20yo ATACs on and haven't looked back.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

carlostruco said:


> Why does almost no one uses Crank Brothers? I know they are expensive, but super light!!! I've had a pair for 10 years now without any issues with just the regular open and grease every couple of months. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they are still with original bearings!!!


I race some top-end Egg Beater 11s. There are two advantages to Egg Beaters, one, the top-end models are the lightest pedals you can get. Don't be deceived, although they look the same, the steel versions are just as heavy as a SPD or Time pedal.

The second advantage is that you can clip in very quickly and easily by rolling the foot forward, this helps at the start. Try as I might, I always fumbled around with ATACs.

That said, it took me a long time to come back to them. I had some old Eggbeater Ti 4s that sent me over the bars when they un-clipped unexpectedly. I use the Crank Bros for race day only and keep some old Time DH4s for training and/or riding Z1 as flat pedals (talk about indestructible and heavy)


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Many pages back there were some gold plated disc brake pads.

Absolute Black were clearly inspired and have now released their graphene brake pads. The compound is “Ceramic organic Performance friction compound containing graphene. Thermal coating containing graphene.”

They’re £49.99 GBP a pair so £99.98 GBP for 2 pairs front and rear.






absoluteBLACK: We have Proven OVAL chainrings. More Performance – Less Fatigue. Go oval.


GRAPHENpads World's best Disc Brake Pads. Disc 34 The Ultimate bicycle chain lubricant. Winner of Yellow, White and Polka dot jersey in general classification of Le Tour de France 2020 & 2021 and winner of Red and Green jersey in general classification of La Vuelta 2020 . Most wanted lube...




absoluteblack.cc















*Descending Test*
“In this testing sequence lasting 600s (10 min) and using a one-of-a-kind machine, we performed a simulation of a long descent on a road bike, with a constant force of 10N on the brake lever and slope angle of 12,5%. Velocity was 25km/h (15.5mph) with air blowing on the braking system at the same speed. Key parameters were recorded at 0.1s interval (6000 points per test). This test helps us to understand how the brake system and friction material behaves during longer periods of braking and when the brake is subjected to fading.

In simple words we simulate a 100kg (220lbs) rider+bike gently dragging their brakes all the way down the descend. It is a typical behaviour for unexperienced riders when descending in alpine terrain. 

We have compared GRAPHENpads to Shimano K-Type L03A (Dura-Ace), Swissstop Disc 34 RS and Kogel R9100 BIA (sintered with copper) pads. In every brake pad test we have used a new Dura-Ace rotor 160mm, new 105 caliper and new brake oil. Those control measures are important as once the caliper reaches over 450C, its seals sustain permanent damage and decomposition of braking fluid can occur. When temperature of the rotor goes above 500C, aluminium core in the rotor starts to soften, causing permanent deformation of the braking surface. Each test was conducted following a standardised bedding-in process of the brake pad-rotor pair, with automated cycle of 100 braking events in dry, 30 in wet, 30 in dry conditions and various, pre-set intensities. Then we let the system to cool down to ambient temperature and dry out before main test.” *Absolute Black*


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

pk1 said:


> awesome, thanks!
> those 2 specialized gloves happen to be what i currently have too. is the sizing similar to specialized?


The Prologo Energrip glove sizing is quite close to a Specialized glove sizing. A Size Large glove is right for me from either manufacturer. The Prologo gloves do stretch a bit after they’ve been worn a few times as well.


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> I use the Crank Bros for race day only...


I thought my lightweight ti EB would be saved for race day, but bashing a rock and tweaking a spring in a race isn't worth it to me for the 150 gram savings. The last training crash from the inadvertent foot release post-rock bash was painful. Training on heavier Look X Track, and bashing rocks without unplanned release is worth it. To me. Maybe if I knew the course was rock or root-free.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> The second advantage is that you can clip in very quickly and easily by rolling the foot forward, this helps at the start. Try as I might, I always fumbled around with ATACs.


Double-edge sword IME, if you caught the mechanism at the right point, yes. If not, like your cleat hit the "wing", the entire thing would rotate like a ball-bearing and your foot would launch forward.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> Many pages back there were some gold plated disc brake pads.
> 
> Absolute Black were clearly inspired and have now released their graphene brake pads. The compound is “Ceramic organic Performance friction compound containing graphene. Thermal coating containing graphene.”
> 
> ...


trust these snake oil salesmen at your peril


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

WR304 said:


> Many pages back there were some gold plated disc brake pads.
> 
> Absolute Black were clearly inspired and have now released their graphene brake pads. The compound is “Ceramic organic Performance friction compound containing graphene. Thermal coating containing graphene.”
> 
> ...


Swissstop Disc RS isn't the right pads to compare in descending torture test.
Swissstop has Exotherm2 for high heat use.

Swissstop Disc RS compound is designed to be QUIET in rain/moist condition. It is silent in rain but squeal when it gets hot. From my use, it's the perfect pads for tropical (rain a lot) flatland. But don't torture them in the mountain.

PS: absoluteBLACK made many bogus claims in the past for their oval chainring, melt wax lube and pulley cage. Then they attempted to shot down many bad reviews of their products. At this point, a new unknown company marketing is more believable than marketing from absoluteBLACK.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Swissstop Disc RS isn't the right pads to compare in descending torture test.
> Swissstop has Exotherm2 for high heat use.
> 
> Swissstop Disc RS compound is designed to be QUIET in rain/moist condition. It is silent in rain but squeal when it gets hot. From my use, it's the perfect pads for tropical (rain a lot) flatland. But don't torture them in the mountain.
> ...


i find their products to be absolute crap. 
there should be a warning sign on the packaging: Contaminated with the BS virus


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Love their oval chainrings.
Been using them since Dec 2014.



Brad said:


> i find their products to be absolute crap.
> there should be a warning sign on the packaging: Contaminated with the BS virus


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

Hexsense said:


> Swissstop Disc RS isn't the right pads to compare in descending torture test.
> Swissstop has Exotherm2 for high heat use.
> 
> Swissstop Disc RS compound is designed to be QUIET in rain/moist condition. It is silent in rain but squeal when it gets hot. From my use, it's the perfect pads for tropical (rain a lot) flatland. But don't torture them in the mountain.
> ...


Hambini tore that pulley cage apart (literally and figuratively), company is a joke. The bike industry is rife with poorly executed products marketed with unbacked claims.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Would you trust any company that sells a bottle of lube for $150?


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> Love their oval chainrings.
> Been using them since Dec 2014.


If you're the kind of person that rides oval chainrings you're just the person for AB to market to.


----------



## preda_0 (Feb 18, 2012)

joebusby said:


> If you're the kind of person that rides oval chainrings you're just the person for AB to market to.


What's wrong with oval chainrings?


----------



## Vamp (10 mo ago)

preda_0 said:


> What's wrong with oval chainrings?


That they are a complicated solution looking for a problem?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Swissstop Disc RS isn't the right pads to compare in descending torture test.
> Swissstop has Exotherm2 for high heat use.
> 
> Swissstop Disc RS compound is designed to be QUIET in rain/moist condition. It is silent in rain but squeal when it gets hot. From my use, it's the perfect pads for tropical (rain a lot) flatland. But don't torture them in the mountain.
> ...



There’s a Bike Rumor article about the Absolute Black pads here:









absoluteBLACK GRAPHENpads graphene-infused disc brake pads promise fade-free performance


Wild-looking fins, new materials, and three years of testing promise durable, consistent braking for SRAM, Shimano road and MTB brakes.




bikerumor.com





On the actual Absolute Black product page those graphs are hidden under a pop out tab. There are different versions of all the brake pads they compared to. The Bike Rumor article says it’s to compare “organic” pads against one another.

*Shimano L03A* is a resin pad with cooling fin (also available L04C sintered pad with cooling fin)

*Swisstop Disc 34 RS* is a resin pad no cooling fins (also available Swisstop Disc 34 Exotherm 2 with cooling fin)

*Kogel BIA* is a soft compound sintered pad no cooling fins (also available Kogel Kratos hard compound sintered pad no cooling fins)

_“Choose Kratos compound for best durability in wet environments and intense braking. These pads reach maximum potential with some heat buildup from cornering and descending.

Choose Bia compound for rides where braking isn't a constant. Imagine going uphill for 30 minutes, then railing the hairpins on the way down. This softer compound has great bite, hot or cold, and is best kept in dry conditions.” *Kogel*_

There may be some “cherry picking” going on regarding which brake pads they chose to show results for. It’s a fairly safe bet that they would have tested the other competitor brands pad compounds listed above for comparison too.


----------



## Fraction (May 20, 2020)

Shoes count as equipment, right? With Specialized selling off their current line-up of mtb shoes, does anyone know if they'll be releasing a new S-Works Recon 2?


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

To be honest, I've never used another pedals besides CB, so I can not speak about stack height. And yes, they failed on me twice when I didn't stayed on top maintenance with them. But that was 10 years ago and I keep tow sets of 11's...once for daily and one for race days. I do switch between them from time to time and re-grease everything inside. The shop I frequent even has an adapter to use with a grease gun so no tearing apart needed. 

On the pads topic, I prefer OEM for my Shimano (road) and Magura (MTB) and almost always use resin pads. Modulation feels better and not as grabby. 

Oval chainrings? I won't even...


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

carlostruco said:


> To be honest, I've never used another pedals besides CB, so I can not speak about stack height. And yes, they failed on me twice when I didn't stayed on top maintenance with them. But that was 10 years ago and I keep tow sets of 11's...once for daily and one for race days. I do switch between them from time to time and re-grease everything inside. The shop I frequent even has an adapter to use with a grease gun so no tearing apart needed.
> 
> On the pads topic, I prefer OEM for my Shimano (road) and Magura (MTB) and almost always use resin pads. Modulation feels better and not as grabby.
> 
> Oval chainrings? I won't even...


I'm one of the few lucky EB owners. Several pair about 10 years old, give or take, zero issues. Then one year I had several bad pedal strikes and the EB wing would break or bend, and I had gnarly crashes while training. But I'm also one of the few who had over 10 years on the weak Stan's 3.30 rear hub with zero failure. That is one of the world's big mysteries, ha!
Going to SPD cleats after many years racing and training with EB sure was a shocker. Increased weight but better rock and root durability. I tried xpedo m force 8 for a day and the weight was great, 215 grams, but the performance with 3 different spd cleats was a pure failure.


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

preda_0 said:


> What's wrong with oval chainrings?


Snake oil just like everything else AB makes. 

Astoundingly dishonest company that literally only stays in business because it markets well and people are dumb.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

joebusby said:


> Snake oil just like everything else AB makes.
> 
> Astoundingly dishonest company that literally only stays in business because it markets well and people are dumb.


And because road riding is a cult.


----------



## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

Jayem said:


> And because road riding is a cult.


Does that make mountain biking a club? 

[talks to significant other] They said no membership fees. All I need is a bike. They said.

[time passes]

It’s just a 5 day stage race. It’s a pretty good deal, I mean, accommodation is included. Yeah! That’s the team price: two person teams mean it’s only half that! Okay, see you later. Have to train for the race!


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

joebusby said:


> Snake oil just like everything else AB makes.
> 
> Astoundingly dishonest company that literally only stays in business because it markets well and people are dumb.


Wolftooth? OneUp? Rotor?


----------



## KonaSS (Sep 29, 2004)

Fraction said:


> Shoes count as equipment, right? With Specialized selling off their current line-up of mtb shoes, does anyone know if they'll be releasing a new S-Works Recon 2?


Yes, new mtb shoes coming. Will likely have the same updates as the new S-Works Torch road shoe.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

NordieBoy said:


> Wolftooth? OneUp? Rotor?


SRAM in on it too.


----------



## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

Shite. All my bikes have Crank Brothers pedals, oval chainrings and aftermarket brake pads.

Can't be all wrong. To me, it feels right.


----------



## Fraction (May 20, 2020)

KonaSS said:


> Yes, new mtb shoes coming. Will likely have the same updates as the new S-Works Torch road shoe.


Any idea on timing?


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

NordieBoy said:


> Wolftooth? OneUp? Rotor?



It's not so much about oval chainrings specifically, it's about AbsoluteBlack business practices as a company. 

I have personally tried Oval chainrings a couple times and can confidently say I notice no difference (except when they are clocked wrong). Others ride them and notice a "right" feeling. I think claims one way or the other are just claims. You have to ride them and see if you like them.


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I need new clipless shoes - what are the go to contenders? 

I have Shimano ME7 size 45. I am using these as my all day XC shoes because the footbed fits and the upper is flexible enough to be comfortable.
I tried Shimano RX8s and they gave me knee pain that kept me off the bike for 6 weeks (the footbed was too narrow and the sole pushed into the side of my foot causing a cant when I pedaled).
I have Bont custom fit shoes 44.5 wide fit. These fit well. But, I don't like them for mountain biking (they make my feet hurt when I descend because of the carbon tub design). They work well for gravel riding and on the trainer.
Specialized 2f0 cliplight 44.5. These are fine. Dig into my ankle (like everyone else), but the pain is minor.

I basically want a Shimano ME7 with a slightly stiffer sole, but everything else to fit the same. Any ideas where I should be looking?


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

cassieno said:


> I need new clipless shoes - what are the go to contenders?
> 
> I have Shimano ME7 size 45. I am using these as my all day XC shoes because the footbed fits and the upper is flexible enough to be comfortable.
> I tried Shimano RX8s and they gave me knee pain that kept me off the bike for 6 weeks (the footbed was too narrow and the sole pushed into the side of my foot causing a cant when I pedaled).
> ...


RX8 Wide maybe.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Lakes are my favorite shoes. They make some high end shoes and they make wide versions and large sizes. I'm size 50 narrow. Yeah. I have some Lake CX 241 blingtastic road shoes (completely reflective) and a pair of Lake MX 332 Supercross, which I use for XC. I've owned several pairs of the previous model, MX 331, which weren't as durable as the new models (poor little kangaroos), but they were stiff, good looking, and light.



cassieno said:


> I need new clipless shoes - what are the go to contenders?
> 
> I have Shimano ME7 size 45. I am using these as my all day XC shoes because the footbed fits and the upper is flexible enough to be comfortable.
> I tried Shimano RX8s and they gave me knee pain that kept me off the bike for 6 weeks (the footbed was too narrow and the sole pushed into the side of my foot causing a cant when I pedaled).
> ...


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This picture shows the double hanger on the new SRAM AXS derailleur from the rear:












https://www.pinkbike.com/news/motor-derailleurs-yeti-ews-crans-montana-2022.html



That looks very solid on both sides of the derailleur hanger to me. 

There isn’t obviously any limit or B tension adjustment screws on it either. They might be hidden, and the picture is muddy, but they don’t seem to be there.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

E-bike rated or something I bet.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

Hexsense said:


> In the aero game...
> At high speed and high cadence, aero socks is surprisingly helpful.
> It move at a greater speed than the bike itself thanks to pedaling motion. It is about as effective as aero helmet despite less surface area. And more effective than aero shaped handlebar or deep wheel.
> 
> ...


who makes best aero helm n socks?


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Can't say which helmet is the most aero because that's individual. How you hold your head up at what angle can change the order of aero ranking. 

But still, the short list of popular aero helmets are: Specialized (Evade 3), Bontrager (Ballista), Giro (Eclipse), Kask (Utopia), Scott (Cadence Plus), Met (Manta and Trenta 3K).

For socks: Silca, Defeet, Specialized.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

Hexsense said:


> Can't say which helmet is the most aero because that's individual. How you hold your head up at what angle can change the order of aero ranking.
> 
> But still, the short list of popular aero helmets are: Specialized (Evade 3), Bontrager (Ballista), Giro (Eclipse), Kask (Utopia), Scott (Cadence Plus), Met (Manta and Trenta 3K).
> 
> For socks: Silca, Defeet, Specialized.


giro is 240 no visor and no mips?


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Giro Eclipse's Spherical slip plane is even better than normal mips.

It's like helmet in helmet. The helmet made of two layer. Inner shell has soft foam. Outer shell has harder foam. Two layers can slide again each other to absorb rotational force.

Cyclingtips.com just review it yesterday.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

WR304 said:


> This picture shows the double hanger on the new SRAM AXS derailleur from the rear:
> 
> View attachment 2000248
> 
> ...


That looks like a 9t.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

For helmets the Met Trenta and Manta.
Giro Aether is also surprisingly aero.
I never liked the evade. Makes one look like a Xenomorph.
For aero socks Rule28 claim the fastest socks….hmmmmm ok sure but they do look good and are comfortable.
Silca gets another vote.


----------



## Vamp (10 mo ago)

If I was into aero optimization, I'd go with the Bioracer Speedware Concept sock - these aguys have been ahead of the curve in this area for over 10 years. Although the differences are likely to be marginal at this point between all the trip strip using products.

For aero helmet, the only way to be sure which is best for you, is to borrow as many of the available products as you can, hire a velodrome for an hour or two and get testing. Personally, I think comfort and ventilation are more important than the small differences between the best performers, so I'd use those to guide my choice. And colour obvs.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Jayem said:


> That looks like a 9t.


From the other pictures in the Pinkbike article it was a full SRAM drivetrain, including the flattop chain. The cassette should be the same 10-52 tooth 12 speed cassette as pictured on earlier bikes I’d have thought.

Have a look at post 1,279 of this thread for details: 









2022 XCO-XCM Equipment


Prologo cool ty!😃




www.mtbr.com





.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

Hexsense said:


> Giro Eclipse's Spherical slip plane is even better than normal mips.
> 
> It's like helmet in helmet. The helmet made of two layer. Inner shell has soft foam. Outer shell has harder foam. Two layers can slide again each other to absorb rotational force.
> 
> Cyclingtips.com just review it yesterday.


who makes the best aero mtb jersey?


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

is time speciale 8 pedals worth it? any other light mtb pedals w platform


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

The lightest would be eggbeater candy or look s track with Sauser cage


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

candy is rip . something in 150$ range


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Stewiewin said:


> who makes the best aero mtb jersey?


Buy a jersey that's too small and stuff yourself into it.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Stewiewin said:


> who makes the best aero mtb jersey?


The short to the point answer would be: I don't know.

more info:
For jersey, just get something skin tight from any brand.
But the more aero option would be skin suit. The whole suit in one piece, either with back pocket or not.

TT pros were crazy about textured aero skin suit for a while. For a while, Castelli, Bioracer, Assos and others were openly and publicly arm race on the fabric texture on the jersey to make their suit more aero. Texture to trip airflow in front of the arm. Thicker filler in the back of the arm smooth out the air detaching behind the arm etc. They made some good marketing of it. Then UCI banned some aero skin suit quoting the non essential features added to manipulate aerodynamic. So, companies are now more quiet about how they make their suit aero (while trying to look normal to not call UCI attention). Since they are more discrete, it's more difficult to just look and guess which one is the best aero suit.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tri suit is more aero than TT one, since they don't follow UCI rules.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Stewiewin said:


> who makes the best aero mtb jersey?


Kim K's 'Skims' brand is very slimming.

You heard it hear first.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Kim K's 'Skims' brand is very slimming.
> 
> You heard it hear first.


I thought you were taking the p*ss till gave in to the temptation to Google it LOL


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> The short to the point answer would be: I don't know.
> 
> more info:
> For jersey, just get something skin tight from any brand.
> ...


Speed Suits are all the rage. I actually find them to be cooler than a fitted top while also being aero.
As for the "textured" skin suits..... i don't think a cyclist travels fast enough to justify the expense of developing $100,000 skin suits to go 0.001sec faster. There's ay more time in the helmet design and fit


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> The short to the point answer would be: I don't know.
> 
> more info:
> For jersey, just get something skin tight from any brand.
> ...


Tri suits aren’t ideal for cycling in. They’re designed to be worn throughout a triathlon, so that they’re swum in, cycled in and then run in also. The chamois pad design in a tri suit is a very thin reinforced layer with barely any padding, so that it dries quickly after the swim and doesn’t get in the way on the run. Compared to a typical cycling short pad there is nothing there!

I bought a Castelli tri suit on sale, thinking it was a skin suit, and had to send it back for a refund.

When it comes to jerseys and skinsuits on a mountain bike the more upright and wider arm position can affect the fit whilst riding. They’re usually cut for a road or time trial position.

I’ve got a Castelli Aero 6.0 jersey (size small) for example that seems like it should be a tight fit but the collar and neck fabric of the jersey flaps in the wind when riding along on a mountain bike, which isn’t good. The collar, shoulders and fit across the chest, in a mountain bike riding position, are the things to watch out for.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Good point on position difference.

My two road shifters are 320mm apart between top end of the two shifters. It's Enve Ses Aero road bar which is 350mm wide at the hood, 400mm wide at the drop, and I tilt the shifter hood in to make it even narrower. 
My mtb bar is 710mm wide.

The shoulder would be thrust forward on road and spread wide on mtb. So, a form fitting jersey shouldn't shape the same.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

WR304 said:


> Tri suits aren’t ideal for cycling in. They’re designed to be worn throughout a triathlon, so that they’re swum in, cycled in and then run in also. The chamois pad design in a tri suit is a very thin reinforced layer with barely any padding, so that it dries quickly after the swim and doesn’t get in the way on the run. Compared to a typical cycling short pad there is nothing there!


Or if you are doing it right, ridden in, peed in, ran in, swam in, peed in, swam in some more...


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Good point on position difference.
> 
> My two road shifters are 320mm apart between top end of the two shifters. It's Enve Ses Aero road bar which is 350mm wide at the hood, 400mm wide at the drop, and I tilt the shifter hood in to make it even narrower.
> My mtb bar is 710mm wide.
> ...


Skinsuits, with the shorts stitched to the upper, pull tight down the back so are usually ok and don’t flap regardless of bike. It’s the separate jerseys that can sometimes be a bit tricky.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> Tri suits aren’t ideal for cycling in. They’re designed to be worn throughout a triathlon, so that they’re swum in, cycled in and then run in also. The chamois pad design in a tri suit is a very thin reinforced layer with barely any padding, so that it dries quickly after the swim and doesn’t get in the way on the run. Compared to a typical cycling short pad there is nothing there!
> 
> I bought a Castelli tri suit on sale, thinking it was a skin suit, and had to send it back for a refund.
> 
> ...


The Sportdul tri suit I use for road TT has a very
Comfortable pad. It’s Just narrower than a typical road race pad.


----------



## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

Our team kit uses the Castelli SANREMO 4.1 SPEED SUIT. I wear it for MTB and gravel and it feels amazing. It’s the most comfortable bike clothing I’ve owned. I prefer it so much that I use it for training as well as races. It zips in the front and has pockets in the back.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Brad said:


> The Sportdul tri suit I use for road TT has a very
> Comfortable pad. It’s Just narrower than a typical road race pad.


This is what I ordered by mistake.






Suits Triathlon Men FREE SANREMO 2 SUIT SHORT SLEEVE - Castelli Cycling


Performance race suit ideal for 70.3 and full-distance racing. Aerodynamics for speed, without compromising pockets and comfort to help you through the big race.




www.castelli-cycling.com





It’s called the “Castelli Free SanRemo 2 suit short sleeve”, thinking it was going to be the Castelli SanRemo 4.1 speed suit that is pictured in MI-XC’s post above (which has the full Progetto X2 pad and full size rear pockets) but it’s really a tri suit with a minimal pad and strange tiny little side pockets that could only hold a gel on each side.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I use a tri-suit as a liner if I want to race with baggies.


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

MI-XC said:


> Our team kit uses the Castelli SANREMO 4.1 SPEED SUIT. I wear it for MTB and gravel and it feels amazing. It’s the most comfortable bike clothing I’ve owned. I prefer it so much that I use it for training as well as races. It zips in the front and has pockets in the back.
> View attachment 2000918



If I wear a tri-suit will it make me look like that guy in the middle?


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> This is what I ordered by mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have the Sportful version of this one. Pad is ok but pockets are a disaster


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Latest creation in the textured skin suit game. Since UCI don't like texture being added to the skit suit. Castelli added the texture to the base layer instead. Then the texture poke through skin suit which you wear on top.
source: Gallery: Trick tech at the TT World Championships - CyclingTips


----------



## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

The lady in the background sure looks impressed. 

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Latest creation in the textured skin suit game. Since UCI don't like texture being added to the skit suit. Castelli added the texture to the base layer instead. Then the texture poke through skin suit which you wear on top.
> source: Gallery: Trick tech at the TT World Championships - CyclingTips
> View attachment 2001262


If you want a textured undervest Huub offer one for sale now:









Aero-Bridge Undervest - Blue/White


The original Aero-Bridge Undervest. Developed at the Silverstone Sports Engineering Hub and Derby Velodrome alongside the World's greatest engineers and riders.A dynamic Undervest designed to be worn with any smooth sleeve Aero Speed Suit. The baselayer lit up the Olympic Games and caused...



huubdesign.com














The difficulty with this particular addon is that it’s intended for higher speeds, 45 to 55 kph is given as the working speed range, which is much faster than even pro rider speeds on an XC mountain bike. It’s unlikely to provide any benefit on a mountain bike.


----------



## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

cassieno said:


> If I wear a tri-suit will it make me look like that guy in the middle?


He's a former football player and a diesel on the bike, but it comes with a weight penalty of 190+ pounds.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

do they make aero helmets for mtb w visor etc.? are there any light and cheap ceramic BB?


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

prologo proxim 650w sport vs dimension agx


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Stewiewin said:


> do they make aero helmets for mtb w visor etc.? are there any light and cheap ceramic BB?


Literally no reason to get a ceramic BB. You'll maybe save 0.5w @ 350w for the first 50hrs of its life, after that the pitting to the races means you'll lose 1-5W over steel for the rest of it's shitty life. 

Just get some noncontact ntn's, but again for a MTB only in the summer.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Stewiewin said:


> do they make aero helmets for mtb w visor etc.? are there any *light and cheap ceramic BB*?


Some years back an Independent Company (as I recall it was an Australian lube testing company of some sort) tested many BB's for friction. Going off memory Ceramic Speed 'won' but right at tied with them was a company called Hawk Racing with their steel BB. What was critical about the Hawk was that it performed particularly well when side loaded.

Soon after that Ceramic Speed purchased the testing company and took down the test results.

So for about 35% of the cost with Hawk Racing you can have steel reliability with the same performance as a $400 Ceramic Speed BB. There is no weight difference worth mentioning, no more than a couple of grams.

So that's all I run is Hawk BBs. They are also American made and when I had one fail after a year of so, they had a new one out to me overnight at no cost.

On edit:









Hawk Racing: Bottom Bracket Study


View the results of a study assessing Hawk Racing’s bottom bracket efficiency ratings compared to other industry choices.




www.hawk-racing.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Some years back an Independent Company (as I recall it was an Australian lube testing company of some sort) tested many BB's for friction. Going off memory Ceramic Speed 'won' but right at tied with them was a company called Hawk Racing with their steel BB. What was critical about the Hawk was that it performed particularly well when side loaded.
> 
> Soon after that Ceramic Speed purchased the testing company and took down the test results.
> 
> ...


That’s a really good link about bottom brackets. Thanks for posting it.









Hawk Racing: Bottom Bracket Study


View the results of a study assessing Hawk Racing’s bottom bracket efficiency ratings compared to other industry choices.




www.hawk-racing.com





I hadn’t seen that one before, as it’s on a manufacturer site, but they appear to have posted the entire report, not just cherry picking the part about their own products.

This comparison between the steel and ceramic bearing products from the same brand really caught my eye:










From the same manufacturer there isn’t much in it between the ceramic and steel bearing versions but then there is quite a bit of variation between manufacturers, presumably down to seals and grease used.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Hambini bottom brackets.
Your hairdresser will thank you.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

I got a brand new prologo proxim 650w t2 sport saddle if anyone wants 90$ w shipping.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Looks like Jordan Sarou is continuing to use his Epic EVO painted like an S-Works with dual lockout, including a win recently in an XCC in Levins, France. Looks pretty straightforward, cable-actuated lockouts,. I see two wires running to the rear, not sure what that's about.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I'm not a fan of more weight, but if you are going to drag around a brain, might as well ditch that and have more travel with lockouts.


----------



## cbenj42 (Jul 16, 2012)

The wire that's attached to the rear lockout cable on Sarrou's bike is probably running from a Blip Button to a Blip Box that's being used to operate the AXS dropper post. The stock AXS lever and under-bar remote lockout would both take up the same real estate on the handlebar.


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

how much does schurter make year?


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

a 180mm rockshox zeb select weights less than 120mm suntour xcr32 that's odd


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

The XCR32 is a cheap not comparable fork. Suntour sells it for $200 on their website. A Zeb and 38 are top of the line products. 

A Suntour Axon Werx is 1450gs and much more comparable than the cheapest Suntour.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

And oddly more expensive than the top of the range sid!


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This article is all about socks!









Sockeloen's €1,000 socks are the 'fastest socks on the planet' - CyclingTips


Aero socks are big news right now, but how much aero savings can they offer and how much would you pay for those savings?




cyclingtips.com





It’s about the Sockeloens aero socks which can be custom made and scanned for your feet and you also choose the type of sock depending on the speed you expect to go. €1,000 euro a pair…


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

WR304 said:


> This article is all about socks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She should have been DQd for brining the sport into disrepute. That was an abomination.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> She should have been DQd for brining the sport into disrepute. That was an abomination.


And one sleeve longer than the other! Would have helped with left hand corners immensely!


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

WR304 said:


> This article is all about socks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bit cheeky saying mvdp was on them when he was wearing spatz.


----------



## rapsac (Sep 26, 2004)

New AXS controller spotted:









Schurter leaks the Eagle AXS controller of the new SRAM AXS groupset


This new controller would be the definitive confirmation that there is a new SRAM AXS group ready to be launched.




en.brujulabike.com


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

rapsac said:


> New AXS controller spotted:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting this article also mentions the confirmation of XCM World Cup being 2023. Thought their own press release was for 2024 to coincide with the XCC and XCO World Cup's. It'll be interesting to see which XCM events apply for (or more specifically are granted) World Cup status.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> She should have been DQd for brining the sport into disrepute. That was an abomination.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Dutch team didn’t seem to have good organisation for the World Championships in general.

Along with the knee height socks (not allowed) Annemieke Van Vleuten somehow started in the wrong skinsuit, and was forced to put a standard team cycling jersey over it mid race as a result. That jersey disadvantage (instead of the skinsuit) would likely have negated any aero benefit from the overly long socks. She still won anyway but it wasn’t thanks to her team or equipment!

The Sockeloen socks would make for a good Youtube video. It could be like one of those with a title such as “I bought the cheapest mountain bike on Amazon” that rack up millions of views.

For the socks it could be titled:

*“I wore €1,000 euro socks for a month and this is what happened! (Totally Crazy)  “ 

.*


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

rapsac said:


> New AXS controller spotted:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So there is a new shifter as well!









Schurter leaks the Eagle AXS controller of the new SRAM AXS groupset


This new controller would be the definitive confirmation that there is a new SRAM AXS group ready to be launched.




en.brujulabike.com














From the picture it looks like the shifter body is smaller but it’s still a two way rocker for the paddle, as with the current AXS shifter. There’s the allen bolt visible on the far right side of the black plastic paddle so functionally it will be the same as the current AXS shifter, using the standard paddle shape. 

The main advantage of the smaller shifter body, along with lighter weight, is that it will be easier to rotate the AXS shifter to the desired angle on the bars for wrist and thumb alignment.

The current larger AXS shifter body can be a bit restricted in its angle depending on which brake levers are used. The AXS shifter can touch the underside of the brake lever limiting how it can be positioned.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Allied Cycle Works have announced a limited edition Payson McElveen version of their BC40 mountain bike: 



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/allied-cycle-works-announces-limited-edition-bc40.html












It’s the same frame as their standard bike but comes in a custom colour scheme.


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Very nice, way better than Payson's Top Fuel setup, although in theory that bike could work too, just was a little cramped in the top tube. While I nominate Jordan Sarrou as the pro that rides the most sensible, performant race bike, this one definitely makes the top 5.



WR304 said:


> Allied Cycle Works have announced a limited edition Payson McElveen version of their BC40 mountain bike:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

WR304 said:


> So there is a new shifter as well!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like two separate buttons to me, the initial AXS release used a two sided beveled rocker which some didn't care for, the updated mid-gen release while still a rocker tried to separate the buttons. This appears to be two separate buttons.


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

chomxxo said:


> Very nice, way better than Payson's Top Fuel setup, although in theory that bike could work too, just was a little cramped in the top tube. While I nominate Jordan Sarrou as the pro that rides the most sensible, performant race bike, this one definitely makes the top 5.


Well at least Sarrou is winning something, the Chom "most sensible bike setup" award. That will earn him his next contract I bet. And yes I am aware he won a World Championship a couple of years ago but since moving to Specialized and using this most awesome setup his results have been moderate.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

BoyinBlue said:


> It looks like two separate buttons to me, the initial AXS release used a two sided beveled rocker which some didn't care for, the updated mid-gen release while still a rocker tried to separate the buttons. This appears to be two separate buttons.


It could be two separate buttons. It’s a screen grab from a video so not super clear. Rather than being a rocker there could be an up button and a down button for thumb presses with the rest of the black plastic being the housing instead of a moving part. 

The earlier World Cup XC photos showed the new direct mount AXS rear derailleurs being used with the original AXS rocker paddle shifter, meaning they should be cross compatible, so perhaps this new shifter is an additional option that will be available alongside the original AXS rocker paddle shifter?


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

WR304 said:


> It could be two separate buttons. It’s a screen grab from a video so not super clear. Rather than being a rocker there could be an up button and a down button for thumb presses with the rest of the black plastic being the housing instead of a moving part.
> 
> The earlier World Cup XC photos showed the new direct mount AXS rear derailleurs being used with the original AXS rocker paddle shifter, meaning they should be cross compatible, so perhaps this new shifter is an additional option that will be available alongside the original AXS rocker paddle shifter?


It’s two buttons for sure.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

ShortTravelMag said:


> It’s two buttons for sure.
> 
> View attachment 2002284
> View attachment 2002284


I wonder if there could be an additional button on the front of the shifter as well? That would be quite useful to have as a front programmable button which could be used either as a Reverb AXS dropper post controller or alternatively as a sprint button for a rapid upshift by tapping it with a finger. 

For weight savings that extra button would save quite a bit on the total groupset weight by eliminating the left hand AXS dropper controller altogether. 78g being the quoted weight for a current AXS shifter.

That’s just speculation, and it’s probably just a 2 button shifter, but seems like an obvious step for SRAM to take.


----------



## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

WR304 said:


> I wonder if there could be an additional button on the front of the shifter as well? That would be quite useful to have as a front programmable button which could be used either as a Reverb AXS dropper post controller or alternatively as a sprint button for a rapid upshift by tapping it with a finger.
> 
> For weight savings that extra button would save quite a bit on the total groupset weight by eliminating the left hand AXS dropper controller altogether. 78g being the quoted weight for a current AXS shifter.
> 
> That’s just speculation, and it’s probably just a 2 button shifter, but seems like an obvious step for SRAM to take.


That would be logical. But I do recall seeing a discussion on patents, and Shimanos seems to be for that back/index finger shift function. Which is why the mechanical sram shifters have never had that. Do others? It's so obvious when you ride shimano all those years past, then switch to Sram like I did 5 years ago. 

A 3rd button, a real, separate button, would be the way to go. I bought AXS last year, and returned it because I assumed that index finger back action was in fact a button, and they said how the shifter is programmable, only it's not. I wanted to mimic shimano, with an index finger for a harder gear. But since the original is a rocker panel (I still don't get why that was necessary, why not one button under each piece of that thumb piece? Why a rocker panel?) isn't really 2 buttons when used with an index finger, it was no good.

Here's hoping the last several years of testing and racer feedback really amounts to an improvement overall.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

ShortTravelMag said:


> That would be logical. But I do recall seeing a discussion on patents, and Shimanos seems to be for that back/index finger shift function. Which is why the mechanical sram shifters have never had that. Do others? It's so obvious when you ride shimano all those years past, then switch to Sram like I did 5 years ago.
> 
> A 3rd button, a real, separate button, would be the way to go. I bought AXS last year, and returned it because I assumed that index finger back action was in fact a button, and they said how the shifter is programmable, only it's not. I wanted to mimic shimano, with an index finger for a harder gear. But since the original is a rocker panel (I still don't get why that was necessary, why not one button under each piece of that thumb piece? Why a rocker panel?) isn't really 2 buttons when used with an index finger, it was no good.
> 
> Here's hoping the last several years of testing and racer feedback really amounts to an improvement overall.


I think that 3rd button would be a real benefit if it does ever happen.

According to the original launch marketing of SRAM AXS they went through multiple iterations of shifters and paddle designs in testing initially.










This picture shows the AXS shifter with paddle removed. The original paddle is in the middle and the newer optional paddle shape is on the far right side:










I feel the rocker style works ok (not as well as if it were three separate buttons but acceptably) with the original paddle (three touch points) but then the newer optional paddle (four touch points) was just too confusing. I tried the newer paddle when it first came out and although it looks good in photos the four available touch points don't match up with standard mechanical trigger shifter layouts. I made far too many miss shifts with the newer optional paddle and went back to the original paddle very rapidly!

These pictures are some I did back in 2020 showing the touch points vs standard mechanical trigger shifters and how they don't match up on the newer optional paddle, resulting in a higher potential for miss shifts:


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

hopefully a new reverb shifter soon too!!


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I didn’t like the original AXS rocker but with the upgrade it is very intuitive. I find myself shifting no more than 2 gears at a time with the long-press set to this. 3 gear shifts at a time feels brute force although I am constantly shifting one gear. I can’t imagine there would be an improvement in ergonomics, must be weight savings


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Credit to Exmuhle for posting this elsewhere. Wow, a new XC hardtail from Cervelo. Now dentists everywhere and their wealthy patients can rattle free their fillings.









Cervélo ZHT 5, su primera MTB para la llegada del Jumbo Visma a nuestro deporte


La Cervélo ZHT 5 no solo es la primera bici de MTB de la marca, también es la confirmación de que el Jumbo Visma estará en el MTB a partir de 2023




esmtb.com





In truth the other choice of orthodontists had a pretty compelling full suspension a few years back that was interesting, the Methanol. It was a pretty nice bike but limited in supply.








Bianchi introduces new Methanol CV FS | Bianchi


With its renewed geometry and racing pedigree, Bianchi's MTB has evolved into the most complete full-suspension XC race bike




www.bianchi.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Credit to Exmuhle for posting this elsewhere. Wow, a new XC hardtail from Cervelo. Now dentists everywhere and their wealthy patients can rattle free their fillings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The article suggests there could be a Cervelo full suspension bike coming soon too.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Ridley have just launched a new XC hardtail called the Probe, as well as a new 120mm travel full suspension XC bike called the Raft:

Compared to the Cervelo hardtail (claimed frame weight 870g size M) the Ridley Probe hardtail frame is 100g lighter (claimed frame weight 760g size M) and doesn’t use headset cable routing.









Ridley hits the trail on new ultralight Probe RS hardtail XC mountain bike


Ridley's new lightweight carbon Probe RS hardtail is ready to take on anything from your local singletrack to an XC World Cup race...




bikerumor.com






















All-new Ridley Raft mountain bike takes on more technical terrain with XC or Trail travel


All-new Ridley Raft full-suspension mountain bike hits the trail in 2 options: pick race-ready XC 100mm or TR 120mm for trail bike shredding!




bikerumor.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

For comparison on the frame weights above the Specialized Epic Hardtail frame (launched in 2019 so likely due for replacement fairly soon) has a claimed weight of 790g in a Size M.

At the time it was claimed to be the world’s lightest hardtail frame:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-2020-specialized-epic-ht.html


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

WR304 said:


> At the time it was claimed to be the world’s lightest hardtail frame


It was at the times, when Specialized (and several other companies) still put weight out in public? Or in other words, when their bikes were maybe really "lightests on world", because once they weren't anymore, it changed to "weight doesn't really matter, it's the feeling that matters, so we don't put weight of our bikes out anymore"


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

primoz said:


> It was at the times, when Specialized (and several other companies) still put weight out in public? Or in other words, when their bikes were maybe really "lightests on world", because once they weren't anymore, it changed to "weight doesn't really matter, it's the feeling that matters, so we don't put weight of our bikes out anymore"


It was more to provide an existing model to compare the weights against as a reference point for the newer just launched hardtail frames.

Specialized are quite happy to talk about bike weights sometimes, when it suits their message.

The current Specialized Epic Hardtail product page:

_“Ridiculously capable and refreshingly compliant with a weight that'll make most road frames jealous, the FACT 12m carbon S-Works Epic Hardtail frame isn't just light, it's the lightest production hardtail frame ever produced.”_









S-Works Epic Hardtail | Specialized.com


What do you call a hardtail race bike so light it can put most road bikes to shame? Well, we suppose you could call it a hardly-there-tail, but it actually goes by the name of the S-Works Epic Hardtail. Even while barely registering on the scale, we’ve loaded it with enough capability to do...




www.specialized.com





For the Cervelo hardtail this is an impressively baffling promo picture (from Cervelo).










Cervelo - built to push?


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Yeah, I saw that and saw the same. Maybe more applicable for an enduro frame, no?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

The new BMC Fourstroke has been “launched”, or rather it’s been announced now and delivery of a higher end Fourstroke 01 model to customers is maybe June 2023 next year.









All-new BMC Fourstroke XC race bikes add magical "Autodrop" seatpost


The new BMC Fourstroke family of cross country bikes isn’t just one bike, it’s three analog bikes, from a World Cup-winning pure XC race machine to a proper trail bike, with an affordable XC model sitting between them, plus a fourth model to yet to come. The headliner is the Fourstroke 01, with...




bikerumor.com





The model to look for is the BMC Fourstroke *01*, as this includes a higher spec carbon frame and has the autodrop dropper post. The non* 01* versions have a lower spec frame and round seatpost.

This picture is the BMC Fourstroke 01 ONE model, which is one below top of the range:










It has the 80mm auto drop seatpost included on the Fourstroke 01 models, which has been used by the BMC sponsored pro riders for several years but is now available on retail bikes. That has a air cylinder moulded into the frame downtube so that the dropper post can be lowered without the rider having to squat on the saddle:


_“The other problem with droppers on XC bikes is that squatting to compress the post wastes energy. With modern courses and competitors pushing everyone to their absolute limit, using any amount of energy to adjust the bike is energy not being used to win.

Working with the athletes, like Titouan Carod, they found that racers would drop their post 70 to 100 times per race. That’s a lot of squatting. He said that not only does the Autodrop post save the legs that extra effort, it also lets them drop the post at the last minute, letting them pedal right up until it’s needed.” *Bikerumor *_

Servicing for the dropper seatpost:

*Can I Service It?*
_“Yep. Just disconnect the air line by removing the rear wheel and pop out the mini mud flap, release the air pressure, unscrew the pressure reduction valve, pull it out, cut the tube (don’t worry, there’s a lot of extra tube, and they sell it as a spare part) and you can pull the entire seatpost out to clean and lubricate it.

Or just take it to your local shop and ask them to follow the simple 60+ step instructional video. But seriously, they say it’s not that complicated.” *Bikerumor *_

It’s a good thing it’s only a 60+ step process. I can imagine what happens whenever a bike shop sees you wheeling this new BMC Fourstroke towards the service department. Just before you reach it the sign on the shop entrance changes from “Open” to “Closed” to avoid working on the proprietary dropper post! 😂

There are two cheaper versions of this bike also, a 100mm rear travel XC model and a 120mm rear travel LT. From the articles it appears that both the front triangle and rear triangle are identical between models. The difference is that a different link is used. Some bikes adjust travel via a different stroke shock, or a different rear triangle but this one is done via the linkage:


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Really strong numbers being put into every aspect of the BMC Fourstroke, well done, 30mm rims, 2.4s, 500mm reach in XL becoming the 2023 standard will, as it always does, cause the haters to eat their hearts out 

Only weak spot I'm seeing is the slight second-tiering of the LT model. The Autodrop seatpost should be an option on the LT 01. I really like this product, weight savings is good and energy preservation is debatable, but I find a lot of times at the peak of a descent, you may not want to sit down (looking down into a steep drop for instance) and that's an awkward action to have to do so to engage the dropper. A really nice upsell would be a 150mm version of the Autodrop on the LT model.

The Fourstroke 100mm 01 is already raked out at 66.5* HA, so unless I'm missing the flip chip option, one probably wouldn't want to retrofit a SID Ultimate 120 to this model. However I do like how they haven't retrofitted long travel into one frame and sacrificed a little reach as is done with the Epic EVO.




WR304 said:


> The new BMC Fourstroke has been “launched”, or rather it’s been announced now and delivery of a higher end Fourstroke 01 model to customers is maybe June 2023 next year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Jurgiuks (Apr 5, 2015)

It is nice to see a new dual pivot xc bike, since almost all brands, even Santa Cruz, has switched to single pivot.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

WR304 said:


> It was more to provide an existing model to compare the weights against as a reference point for the newer just launched hardtail frames.
> 
> Specialized are quite happy to talk about bike weights sometimes, when it suits their message.
> 
> ...


Yeah but there's still no weight for bike under specifications. Or did I missed it? I agree it's "the feeling" that should matter, but it's actually pretty good info, at least for xc bikes, to know when trying to pick your new bike if bike is 10, 11 or 13kg. But more and more companies are removing this data, in my mind because with weight there, it's hard to brag "we have lightest bike", especially when they build bike the way they are currently building it (not talking about top of the top bikes with XTR/XX1 equipment, but for example bikes with XT equipment)... Full XT equipment etc. where derailleur and maybe brakes are XT, and everything else SLX or even Deore, to get some more profit. With weight not being important (yeah it's joke), you don't really see diffence on first sight between real full XT and what today full XT means.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Only weak spot I'm seeing is the slight second-tiering of the LT model. The Autodrop seatpost should be an option on the LT 01. I really like this product, weight savings is good and energy preservation is debatable, but I find a lot of times at the peak of a descent, you may not want to sit down (looking down into a steep drop for instance) and that's an awkward action to have to do so to engage the dropper. A really nice upsell would be a 150mm version of the Autodrop on the LT model.


Yeah, definitely not at 80mm though. 100mm absolute min for me and prefer at least 120 on an XC bike.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

I think I'm weird on dropper preference. 
I had 100mm travel on Spot Ryve 115.
Then later, when I built Specialized Epic. I select 75mm Fox transfer SL over the 100mm. Both 100mm and 75mm weight about the same, so it's not about the weight. I like the 75mm more as it require less squat to drop the post.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

That BMC is a nice looking bike. The auto drop post is an absolute killer feature and one, that I think, makes a real difference.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> That BMC is a nice looking bike. The auto drop post is an absolute killer feature and one, that I think, makes a real difference.


I’ve been wanting someone to make a worm-gear driven dropper for a while. Powered both up and down with a motor/battery. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Hexsense said:


> I think I'm weird on dropper preference.
> I had 100mm travel on Spot Ryve 115.
> Then later, when I built Specialized Epic. I select 75mm Fox transfer SL over the 100mm. Both 100mm and 75mm weight about the same, so it's not about the weight. I like the 75mm more as it require less squat to drop the post.


My 80mm Divine SL Rascal is my all-time fave xc post.


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

LMN said:


> That BMC is a nice looking bike. The auto drop post is an absolute killer feature and one, that I think, makes a real difference.


It'd be a good reason to run a 100mm SC34.


----------



## donR (11 mo ago)

Seems a shame the couldn't fit cage mounts on the seat tube with the new design. I still prefer the dual cage mounts in the traditional locations. 

How does the dual bottle cage mounts on the down tube work? I've never seen that done and how does it go fitting and accessing two cages and bottles on say the small and medium frames? It seems one would end up being really low and the other maybe too high? Anyone tried it?


----------



## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

donR said:


> Seems a shame the couldn't fit cage mounts on the seat tube with the new design. I still prefer the dual cage mounts in the traditional locations.
> 
> How does the dual bottle cage mounts on the down tube work? I've never seen that done and how does it go fitting and accessing two cages and bottles on say the small and medium frames? It seems one would end up being really low and the other maybe too high? Anyone tried it?


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

More bikes with room for one bottle in the internal triangle should offer a second bottle mount on the bottom of the downtube. The old Niner Jet 9 RDO and RLT9 offered this and it was great, even lower center of gravity, albeit the bottle gets sprayed with mud quite a bit. 

Secondly there's the Wolf Tooth B-Rad system, in which you could do side by side or two vertically if it's possible to fit them in your frame.








B-RAD SYSTEM


Be rad with the B-RAD System, the ultimate Bottle Relocation and Accessory Device. Mount your bottles away from inconvenient rear shocks, add storage room for tools or tubes below a bottle cage, and provide space for a second bottle on sufficiently-long downtubes—all with one patented design...




www.wolftoothcomponents.com


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

But the price!!! OMG!!! I have a new Fourstorke FS01 (MY22) coming in as a warranty replacement...should I sell it? I seriously considering it!!!


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

MI-XC said:


> View attachment 2003339
> View attachment 2003340


I'm really liking this!


----------



## preda_0 (Feb 18, 2012)

MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation


Wanted to start a thread for new bike tech and rumors. Recently, the racing rumors page has turned into an Ebike debate so lets get this thread started off right! First up, Santa Cruz Heckler




www.vitalmtb.com


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Is it time for 2023 Equipment yet? Look at me being all wrong:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-a-new-xc-bike-from-commencal.html



I guess there is a Commencal short-travel AL bike....soon. But no flex-stays; prolly heavy...so not XC...really more DOWN-COUNTRY! 😆 🤣 😆 .


----------



## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

smartyiak said:


> Is it time for 2023 Equipment yet? Look at me being all wrong:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a Yeti SB115/SB130 - very tall.

Maybe with a 120mm fork it'll be a bit more balanced 🤷‍♂️.


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

MI-XC said:


> View attachment 2003339
> View attachment 2003340


Wish someone would 3d print that and save a load of weight and loads of cash.


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

joebusby said:


> Wish someone would 3d print that and save a load of weight and loads of cash.


It wouldn't be cheaper and most likely wouldn't be lighter either.


----------



## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

carlostruco said:


> But the price!!! OMG!!! I have a new Fourstorke FS01 (MY22) coming in as a warranty replacement...should I sell it? I seriously considering it!!!


What was the warranty about? What failed?


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

well the new BMC 4 stroke officially broke cover today


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

This automatic dropper sounds great!


----------



## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

joebusby said:


> Wish someone would 3d print that and save a load of weight and loads of cash.


I’m not so sure about “loads of weight”, but maybe 50 grams tops. The benefit of my current setup is that it can be adjusted to accommodate different frame sizes, geometry and bottle heights. Plus I get to choose what bottle cages I want and whether side loading left or right. There may be room for improvement but it’s not leaps and bounds.

For sure it’s not cheap though, so lots of room there!


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

BoyinBlue said:


> It wouldn't be cheaper and most likely wouldn't be lighter either.


It's load bearing metal cnc'd. 3d printed nylon would be half the weight. They also want £100+ for it, which in monopoly money probably would work out at $150 before we started destroying our economy. 

Neat idea, but making it that expensive is just crying out for someone to 3d print it.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

primoz said:


> Yeah but there's still no weight for bike under specifications. Or did I missed it? I agree it's "the feeling" that should matter, but it's actually pretty good info, at least for xc bikes, to know when trying to pick your new bike if bike is 10, 11 or 13kg. But more and more companies are removing this data, in my mind because with weight there, it's hard to brag "we have lightest bike", especially when they build bike the way they are currently building it (not talking about top of the top bikes with XTR/XX1 equipment, but for example bikes with XT equipment)... Full XT equipment etc. where derailleur and maybe brakes are XT, and everything else SLX or even Deore, to get some more profit. With weight not being important (yeah it's joke), you don't really see diffence on first sight between real full XT and what today full XT means.


I can see why bike companies wouldn’t want to put a complete bike weight on their product page. Although it may provide a rough guide for customers it’s also something that’s hard for them to control.

Different paint finishes on the frame can add or subtract weight whilst there are often manufacturing weight variations in parts such as mtb tyres between batches that add up as well. The paint finish and tyre weights alone could be a difference of 200g+ between samples of the same bike model.

That’s before the nuances of what is being weighed - frame size? with inner tubes? Tubeless? With or without sealant? Uncut fork steerer? No pedals? Etc


----------



## donR (11 mo ago)

MI-XC said:


> View attachment 2003339
> View attachment 2003340


That is really clever. Looks like it solves the problem.


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

donR said:


> That is really clever. Looks like it solves the problem.


I paid about $30 USD shipping for the $70 USD part, and it has been worth every penny. Setup is kind of tricky, but the 2 small bottles in-frame kept me from parting ways with the frame. Much better than the Wolftooth b-rad side by side bottles. And I can still carry a third bottle under downtube with the SKS anywhere cage adaptor.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

westin said:


> I paid about $30 USD shipping for the $70 USD part, and it has been worth every penny. Setup is kind of tricky, but the 2 small bottles in-frame kept me from parting ways with the frame. Much better than the Wolftooth b-rad side by side bottles. And I can still carry a third bottle under downtube with the SKS anywhere cage adaptor.


That’s a Lyne components product ?

www.lynecomponents.com


----------



## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

Brad said:


> That’s a Lyne components product ?
> 
> www.lynecomponents.com


----------



## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

[


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

WR304 said:


> I can see why bike companies wouldn’t want to put a complete bike weight on their product page. Although it may provide a rough guide for customers it’s also something that’s hard for them to control.
> 
> Different paint finishes on the frame can add or subtract weight whilst there are often manufacturing weight variations in parts such as mtb tyres between batches that add up as well. The paint finish and tyre weights alone could be a difference of 200g+ between samples of the same bike model.
> 
> That’s before the nuances of what is being weighed - frame size? with inner tubes? Tubeless? With or without sealant? Uncut fork steerer? No pedals? Etc


I'm not talking about custom bikes. I'm talking about particular model that certain company sells. I agree your arguments are correct, but if certain company sells model A with certain equipment, it should be pretty easy to put weight for that frame and that particular equipment there. Sure there's weight difference between sizes, but this was normally solved to have statement that weight is for S size model (as most of them put lightest option out not XXL weight ). Half of companies have no problems putting this, the other half has. And mostly the other half has their bikes set up in very similar way... High class equipment where you can see you (normally rear derailleur), and cheaper, heavier equipment where you don't see it (cassette, chain, bb...). So bike with XT derailleur (and everything else SLX, Deore or even lower) is marketed with XT equipped bike. Let's say frame weights same, so this bike would be quite a bit heavier then bike with full XT equipment. But since it's XT equipped, price can be same as competition with full XT equipment. And to mask non XT, heavier stuff on bike, they just say "weight shouldn't be the main thing, so we don't put weight out, it's the feeling that matters". 
That's certainly just my opinion, but if you go and check a bit, companies with parts mixed from several different series, have mostly problems putting weight of bikes out, companies with bikes that are normally equipped with same series equipment, normally don't have problems putting weight out.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Publishing weigh figures will make it too easy for a buyer to exclude a heavier bike from their shopping options even if it rides better than the lighter bike. In marketing , don’t shoot your self in the ass if you don’t have to.


----------



## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Is there a situation where you _have to_ shoot yourself in the ass?


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I'm surprised manufacturers like Specialized who usually have some of the lighter frame weights (at least for XC bikes) don't publish weights. You'd think it's a marketing advantage. On the other hand, Trek who has some porky XC frames list their weights.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

primoz said:


> I'm not talking about custom bikes. I'm talking about particular model that certain company sells. I agree your arguments are correct, but if certain company sells model A with certain equipment, it should be pretty easy to put weight for that frame and that particular equipment there. Sure there's weight difference between sizes, but this was normally solved to have statement that weight is for S size model (as most of them put lightest option out not XXL weight ). Half of companies have no problems putting this, the other half has. And mostly the other half has their bikes set up in very similar way... High class equipment where you can see you (normally rear derailleur), and cheaper, heavier equipment where you don't see it (cassette, chain, bb...). So bike with XT derailleur (and everything else SLX, Deore or even lower) is marketed with XT equipped bike. Let's say frame weights same, so this bike would be quite a bit heavier then bike with full XT equipment. But since it's XT equipped, price can be same as competition with full XT equipment. And to mask non XT, heavier stuff on bike, they just say "weight shouldn't be the main thing, so we don't put weight out, it's the feeling that matters".
> That's certainly just my opinion, but if you go and check a bit, companies with parts mixed from several different series, have mostly problems putting weight of bikes out, companies with bikes that are normally equipped with same series equipment, normally don't have problems putting weight out.


I went and had a look at a few larger manufacturers websites. Some eg: Specialized, Giant don’t include bike weights whilst others eg: Santa Cruz, Trek, Scott all publish bike weights.

It struck me that particularly for the top end halo models there’s an incentive to keep the headline weight down, the easiest way being to spec lighter tyres. The Trek Supercaliber for example comes with Bontrager XR1 semi slick tyres 29x2.2 630g which look good on a spec sheet but are likely to be changed before the bike leaves the shop.

Supercaliber 9.9 XX1 AXS | Trek Bikes (GB)

There are a lot of Maxxis Aspen and Maxxis Rekon Race (both front and rear) specced too on other brands.

*Edit: *The MTBR Trek Supercaliber forum thread. There aren’t many Bontrager XR1 semi slicks that I could see:









2020 Trek Supercaliber Official Post


DT Swiss - front and rear wheel/hub bearing dimensions - does anyone know that info? The typical google searches have me in circles. Thanks. The bearing sizes are printed on the seals of the bearings. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




www.mtbr.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

A bike check for Titouan Carod’s BMC Fourstroke: 









Pro Bike Check: Titouan Carod's Val di Sol winning BMC Fourstroke 01


Check out the UCI XCO World Cup winning race bike ridden by BMC athlete Titouan Carod to see his choice of custom wheels, cockpit & more!




bikerumor.com





.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> Is there a situation where you _have to_ shoot yourself in the ass?


See post #1500


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There’s a more detailed look at the new SRAM AXS groupset here:









New details on prototype SRAM Eagle DM derailleur, SL cassette & powermeter chainrings


The first closeup look at the upcoming SRAM Eagle direct-mount rear derailleur and new Eagle SL cassette reveal surprising details.




bikerumor.com





It confirms the rear derailleur doesn’t have a B tension screw but there is an alignment mark on the rear of the derailleur.

The pin for holding the derailleur open has an A and B position now that appears to be reversible:


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This video is a walkthrough of the expo at the 2022 Kona Ironman triathlon:

In particular there is a look at some of the upcoming wearable sensors for training with, along with a look at some of the new Huub suit fabrics for cooling that are relevant for mtb.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

2023 scales sl coming with trickstuffs!!


----------



## Swolie74 (11 mo ago)

joebusby said:


> Wish someone would 3d print that and save a load of weight and loads of cash.


I'm a bit late with the response, but I'm actually planning on making a few of these for myself tomorrow out of aluminum and have some being made on an SLS printer to test. I also debated machining a simple mold so I can make them out of forged carbon fiber because.......why not, lol


----------



## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Swolie74 said:


> I'm a bit late with the response, but I'm actually planning on making a few of these for myself tomorrow out of aluminum and have some being made on an SLS printer to test. I also debated machining a simple mold so I can make them out of forged carbon fiber because.......why not, lol


If the printed ones work well I'd be interested in the file to have some made.


----------



## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

cycloholic said:


> 2023 scales sl coming with trickstuffs!!


2022 spark ultimate had also trickstuffs


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Hmm i think with xtrs


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> Hmm i think with xtrs
> View attachment 2004685


The 2022 Scott Spark 900 Ultimate Evo AXS (non RC) came with Trickstuff Piccola brakes: £13,099.00 GBP 



https://www.scott-sports.com/gb/en/product/scott-spark-900-ultimate-evo-axs-bike?article=286280012


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

El nuevo mando remoto RockShox Twistloc ya no es un prototipo: precio y detalles de funcionamiento


El nuevo mando de bloqueo remoto RockShox TwistLoc llegó al mercado hace unas semanas. Lo hizo con un diseño completamente nuevo, ergonomía mejorada y opción para 2 o 3 posiciones. Estos son sus detalles y precio.




esmtb.com





This article suggests that the new TwistLoc is already available to buy. Any one actually seen it available anywhere?

When I asked the distributor they said end of year, but wondering if it's earlier elsewhere.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Coming on February at Scandinavia's distributor.


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

mail_liam said:


> El nuevo mando remoto RockShox Twistloc ya no es un prototipo: precio y detalles de funcionamiento
> 
> 
> El nuevo mando de bloqueo remoto RockShox TwistLoc llegó al mercado hace unas semanas. Lo hizo con un diseño completamente nuevo, ergonomía mejorada y opción para 2 o 3 posiciones. Estos son sus detalles y precio.
> ...


SRAM USA has my 3 position Twistloc arriving November 23rd.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

westin said:


> SRAM USA has my 3 position Twistloc arriving November 23rd.


similar in SA


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

1330g 25mm id
1400g 27mm id
1480g 30mm id

Which would you pick if offered the choice? 2.2-2.35 tyres.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

27mm

that what I use


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

joebusby said:


> 1330g 25mm id
> 1400g 27mm id
> 1480g 30mm id
> 
> Which would you pick if offered the choice? 2.2-2.35 tyres.


That is really a personal preference decision. 

I have 23mm, 26mm and 30mm and honestly can't in a blind test notice much of a difference. I would probably go with the 26mm or 30mm mainly because they are going to be easier to sell in the future.

But some people are very sensitive to rim width and claim a significant performance gain with wider rims.


----------



## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

joebusby said:


> 1330g 25mm id
> 1400g 27mm id
> 1480g 30mm id
> 
> Which would you pick if offered the choice? 2.2-2.35 tyres.


I run 2.2 to 2.35. I have new 25mm We Are One Revive which replaced 23mm 10 year old LB on the xc race bike, and my other older sets that see more use on trail bikes are 27 and 30mm with DT350 hubs but different spokes/count/rim depth. Truthfully I pick the bike with the freshest lube/quietest drivetrain. In my uneducated opinion that does more for my speed than 100 grams and 3mm.

edit after below post: my road/gravel rim is also 25mm (Reserve carbon) which has 38 tire.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

My road rim is 25mm id with 28mm tire...
Light-Bicycle WR65, 25mm id, 32mm od, and 65mm deep match perfectly with 28mm road slick tire.

I can't get myself to buy new mtb rim intended to use 57mm (2.25") tire that isn't any wider than my road rim...
So, I vote 30mm, or 27mm.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I can’t notice a difference between the hollow gram C23 rims I have the new zero2 race rims (27mm). I only changed rims because the rear rim and I could only get the cannondale rim with a complete wheel. The zero 2 has a great crash replacement policy (which I have used) and they’re more easy to sell in future. The rim profile makes more differences than just the width. I do prefer flatter profiles rims as they’re more resilient to impacts. I may try the Zipp rims , aduke or Bike Ahead


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

joebusby said:


> 1330g 25mm id
> 1400g 27mm id
> 1480g 30mm id
> 
> Which would you pick if offered the choice? 2.2-2.35 tyres.


For a XC race bike? 25mm rear, 27mm front., to run 2.2/ 2.35 set up.

If that's not an option I'd choose the 27s.

GL


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

30mm ID, although you can build at that size much lighter. Tires of 2.2-2.4 will all perform better with a wider rim.




joebusby said:


> 1330g 25mm id
> 1400g 27mm id
> 1480g 30mm id
> 
> Which would you pick if offered the choice? 2.2-2.35 tyres.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This Bike Retailer article is about machines for bedding in brake discs and rotors together, without needing to go out and ride the bike every time. It’s a bit overkill for home use but used by teams such as the Unior - Sinter team for bike prep:









New shop tools may end mechanics' outdoor 'bed-in' rides. And that's a good thing.


A Massachusetts startup and a Slovenian brake pad manufacturer are each coming out with devices to speed up and standardize the process of bedding-in new disc brake pads and rotors.




www.bicycleretailer.com













Unior Sinter Factory Racing on Instagram: "NEXT LEVEL 💪 How do you bed-in your brake pads? The old way? From now on we do it the high-tech way – with the new @sinterbrakes tool for bedding-in brake pads on all types of bicycles. It works perfectly, it’s easy to use and gives superb results. Bike is ready to go in a minute. Make sure you follow Sinter (and us), so you’ll be the first to know when it’s available to everyone! #UniorSinter #SinterBrakes #RideSinter #brakes #brakepads #bedding #mtb #mountainbike #cycling #brake #shimano #sram #magura #formula #hopetech #trp #tektro #trickstuff #pinkbike #vitalmtb #mtbnews #lesgets2022 #cyclingtips #cyclingnews #prototype"


Unior Sinter Factory Racing shared a post on Instagram: "NEXT LEVEL 💪 How do you bed-in your brake pads? The old way? From now on we do it the high-tech way – with the new @sinterbrakes tool for bedding-in brake pads on all types of bicycles. It works perfectly, it’s easy to use and gives superb...




www.instagram.com


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> 30mm ID, although you can build at that size much lighter. Tires of 2.2-2.4 will all perform better with a wider rim.


a 30mm ID is a very small wheel


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

I know ID usually means Internal *Diameter* in engineering term. For wheel width, it should be IW (internal width). 

But somehow, ID (Internal *Dimension*) is the common term in cycling industry.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> I know ID usually means Internal *Diameter* in engineering term. For wheel width, it should be IW (internal width).
> 
> But somehow, ID (Internal *Dimension*) is the common term in cycling industry.


you mean the same industry that sells watt savings from drag inducing components?
Half the time the bike industry is wrong. We shouldn't be giving "wrong" credibility


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Tsk tsk. 30mm *internal diameter *is correct for bicycle rims. It's taken from piping, which has an internal diameter and an external diameter, so that pipe fitters know what'll fit.


----------



## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

But where is the diameter of the bead hook?
Rim bed is a rectangular shape object that I don't see anything round enough to measure its diameter.
Then we put tire on top creating ice cream cone shape tire+rim.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Measure it like WTB.
i25, i30...


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Tsk tsk. 30mm *internal diameter *is correct for bicycle rims. It's taken from piping, which has an internal diameter and an external diameter, so that pipe fitters know what'll fit.


It does appear you can make stuff up LOL


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

At best it’s the base of a sector of a circle when the tyre is fitted. This is still called width


----------



## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

chomxxo said:


> Tsk tsk. 30mm *internal diameter *is correct for bicycle rims. It's taken from piping, which has an internal diameter and an external diameter, so that pipe fitters know what'll fit.


ID, as it applies to bicycle rims, would be more synonymous with piping wall thickness (schedule/SCH), than a pipes internal diameter. A pipes ID would be similar to a rims ERD, outside diameter would be BSD. I think? 

A plumbing pipefitter would practically always use nominal ID and schedule. SCH 20, SCH 40 and SCH 80 are the most common and all have the same outside diameter, just different wall thickness. A refrigeration mechanic or gas pipefitter uses outside diameter... What a refrigeration mechanic would call 7/8" copper tube, a plumber would call 3/4" copper pipe, they have the same dimensions.

The above is for North America. In Australia, for one example, that 3/4" pipe would be called 20mm.

Ok, now that I've shown the size of my 'pipe'... Really, who gives a shite!! We all know what someone is referring to when rim ID is stated. Pick a wheel size terminology and be a di(k about it, I spose. :/

OP, the 27mm is a nice sweet spot. But it's so subjective and depends on other factors, such as tyres used. For reference, I run 2.4 Rekon Races on 25mm internal dimension rims, for me, that's the absolute limit. Cheers.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Road bike rim manufacturers always referred to their rims width across the brake track and inside width across bead hook. This would give the buyer an indication how much brake track wear they can tolerate before the rim is toast. Then they added wear indicators (little indent on the brake track) .Mtb rim ID was probably coined by a journalist and all the sheep started bleeting on about diameter. It’s an incorrect term and no not everyone knows what it is, especially newbies.

would sent your kid to a school where the math teacher taught them 1+1=4?


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Brad said:


> would sent your kid to a school where the math teacher taught them 1+1=4?


Ahh, quantum...


----------



## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

Brad said:


> would sent your kid to a school where the math teacher taught them 1+1=4?


Maybe, would depend on the circumstance 1+1=4 is discussed. Though, I think I understand your point! 1+1=3 is an interesting concept. Google it.

(Sorry everyone, I'm off topic again. It is the off season in the Northern Hemisphere, so please forgive/ignore me.)


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Lahrs said:


> OP, the 27mm is a nice sweet spot. But it's so subjective and depends on other factors, such as tyres used. For reference, I run 2.4 Rekon Races on 25mm internal dimension rims, for me, that's the absolute limit. Cheers.


I ran the 2.4 tires on some Stans Podiums with 23mm ID and it actually worked quite well. Even in the Spring when there was a ton of grip and I could really corner hard I had no issues with insufficient support.


----------



## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

^ Just shows how much near everything we say here is just our opinions. You and I have similar terrain and even bikes, yet, your experience and abilities being far superior means we have different conclusions.

Where I find 2.4's on 25mm lacking confidence is when landing an off camber jump, for example. The side knobs feel like they fold over a little and front end wants to wash out. Could be due to my lack of technique or the low tyre pressures. Had one ride with 2.4s on a set of 23's, took them straight off. :/ Cheers.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Lahrs said:


> ^ Just shows how much near everything we say here is just our opinions. You and I have similar terrain and even bikes, yet, your experience and abilities being far superior means we have different conclusions.
> 
> Where I find 2.4's on 25mm lacking confidence is when landing an off camber jump, for example. The side knobs feel like they fold over a little and front end wants to wash out. Could be due to my lack of technique or the low tyre pressures. Had one ride with 2.4s on a set of 23's, took them straight off. :/ Cheers.



i think the issue there is the rim is twisting under the load more than the wider rim. This lateral stiffness is the big benefit of a rim with wider bead hooks. I'd didn't notice this twist so much with the Hollowgram 23mm rims but they are very stiff. I did notice it with an alloy rim. AMC Wide Lightnings at 29mm were also quite stiff (till they weren't). Not all wide rims are stiff though so thats smething to consider. My current 27mm rims are stiff than some 29mm rims and i get that squirm from those 29mm rims. I sold them and stuck with the 27's


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## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

Brad said:


> i think the issue there is the rim is twisting under the load more than the wider rim. This lateral stiffness is the big benefit of a rim with wider bead hooks. I'd didn't notice this twist so much with the Hollowgram 23mm rims but they are very stiff. I did notice it with an alloy rim. AMC Wide Lightnings at 29mm were also quite stiff (till they weren't). Not all wide rims are stiff though so thats smething to consider. My current 27mm rims are stiff than some 29mm rims and i get that squirm from those 29mm rims. I sold them and stuck with the 27's


You raise an interest point, one I had not thought of.

I'm running WA1 Revive's, not a super weight weenie rim. I more thought the tyre roll was due to rim ID, me not landing perpendicular to the ground and running 18-20psi ?? Regardless, 99% of the time the setup is great, so not much of a problem really. Cheers.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Lahrs said:


> You raise an interest point, one I had not thought of.
> 
> I'm running WA1 Revive's, not a super weight weenie rim. I more thought the tyre roll was due to rim ID, me not landing perpendicular to the ground and running 18-20psi ?? Regardless, 99% of the time the setup is great, so not much of a problem really. Cheers.


18-20psi is pretty low but it depends on the tyre and your weight. 
With y current Kenda Karma II at those pressures the feel as firm as Pirelli XC Race 2.4's at 23 front 26rear.
Too low tyre pressure will compound the feel of tyre squirm.
The Revive is their lightest rim isn't it? About 350gr IIRC? It will likely be a contributor.

It can also be a combination of everything from
tyre
rim flex
rear triangle flex

On rear triangle flex, i was riding behind a guy on an Epic '21 today. I could see how the rear end was flexing on the off camber just by watching the rear wheel leanng over as he rode the camber on the single track. I notice this on all flex stay rear ends


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Lahrs said:


> ^ Just shows how much near everything we say here is just our opinions. You and I have similar terrain and even bikes, yet, your experience and abilities being far superior means we have different conclusions.
> 
> Where I find 2.4's on 25mm lacking confidence is when landing an off camber jump, for example. The side knobs feel like they fold over a little and front end wants to wash out. Could be due to my lack of technique or the low tyre pressures. Had one ride with 2.4s on a set of 23's, took them straight off. :/ Cheers.


Trust in your equipment is everything. If you think your tire is too wide for your rims, it is!!! That is the funny thing about riding, the most important thing is does the equipement respond to inputs as you think it should.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> 18-20psi is pretty low but it depends on the tyre and your weight.


Low?? I am flirting with that 15psi range nowadays. That being said depending on tire gauges one persons 15psi is anothers 23.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Low?? I am flirting with that 15psi range nowadays. That being said depending on tire gauges one persons 15psi is anothers 23.


gauges aside, Karma II is a much tougher tyre than the very XC race oriented Pirelli XC Race 
If I ran the Pirelli at the low pressures I run the Karma II I'd be replacing rims every Monday morning.

PS: obviously my pressures are measured with the same gauge so I understand that your gauges 15psi maybe my gauges 23


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Brad said:


> 18-20psi is pretty low but it depends on the tyre and your weight.


And how hard you're riding. I was down to 18psi rear at ~77kg on my old Anthem. I'm a better rider now and on a 120mm Spark and even with an insert I need closer to 22-23psi to maintain support when riding hard down chunky trails.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> And how hard you're riding. I was down to 18psi rear at ~77kg on my old Anthem. I'm a better rider now and on a 120mm Spark and even with an insert I need closer to 22-23psi to maintain support when riding hard down chunky trails.


correct. The faster you're going the more pressure you need to support the tyre and generate grip


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Brad said:


> gauges aside, Karma II is a much tougher tyre than the very XC race oriented Pirelli XC Race
> If I ran the Pirelli at the low pressures I run the Karma II I'd be replacing rims every Monday morning.
> 
> PS: obviously my pressures are measured with the same gauge so I understand that your gauges 15psi maybe my gauges 23


Shock pump gauges are an issue for accuracy too. I took my shock pump down to the bike shop for a quick comparison against their workshop shock pump and it was about 10 psi difference on the gauge between the two pumps connected to the same suspension fork!

This Enduro-mtb article looked at multiple shock pumps and there was quite a bit of variation between models. The expensive digital ones not necessarily being any better either.









Under pressure! 15 shock pumps in review


Every mountain biker needs one, at home and on the road – a shock pump is an essential tool in day-to-day mountain-bike life. We tested 15 models of all sizes and budgets to help you find the best all-rounder. The market is full of pumps, giving customers a dizzying array of choices. Analogue or...




enduro-mtb.com


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> Shock pump gauges are an issue for accuracy too. I took my shock pump down to the bike shop for a quick comparison against their workshop shock pump and it was about 10 psi difference on the gauge between the two pumps connected to the same suspension fork!
> 
> This Enduro-mtb article looked at multiple shock pumps and there was quite a bit of variation between models. The expensive digital ones not necessarily being any better either.
> 
> ...


you're right, sometimes the digital gauges are just more accurately inaccurate


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Those gauge inaccuracy sucks.

On road bike, I was thinking my tire pressure sweet spot was 75psi on my old Bontrager pump. Then one day my friend ask why my gauge doesn't rest at zero. Well, I don't know. At rest it read 14psi for some reason. That trigger me to buy one digital gauge and one portable battery powered pump (also for traveling, it's way smaller than a floor pump) to verify everything. By the majority vote, my portable battery powered air pump and digital gauge both read 59-60psi for what my old Bontrager say is 75... As a result, I take it as a chance to upgrade my floor pump. I bought a new floor pump with more air volume per stroke than my old one. And I'm happy that it read 61psi for what my portable electric air pump and digital gauge read 59-60. Close enough.

There is still a slim chance that all my 3 air pressure devices from all different manufacturers all read wrong, but consistent with each other though.


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Re: tyre pressures

www.perpetualdisappointment.co.uk/what-tyre-pressures-to-top-ews-enduro-and-world-cup-downhill-riders-use/amp/

5 years ago EWS pros were running an AVG 23/26. 

Nowadays that's the kind of pressure you see in e-bike racing. 



https://m.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-nico-vouillozs-lapierre-glp-2-ews-e-race-bike.html?trk=rss



XCO WC male riders are on closer to 15-17 front.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

That’s because you’re correct. 25mm rims are too small for 2.4s. Look at the original “klunker” bikes, aka beach cruisers. As with road bikes or vehicles, rims slightly narrower than the tire width are the ideal size. They support the tire much better and they provide more volume. 

If you asked a mechanic to install tires on your car at the same ratio as 25mm-55mm tires, he’d look at you as if you’d lost your mind and would refuse to do it for safety’s sake. Even Jeeps don’t have anywhere near a 2:1 ratio in rim and tire width.

Only those fixated on the status quo don’t see this. I have a set of 39mm ID wheels and I can tell you, even 2.2s perform well with them. 30mm is a great starting point these days, and in less than a decade we’ll be at 35mm.




Lahrs said:


> ^ Just shows how much near everything we say here is just our opinions. You and I have similar terrain and even bikes, yet, your experience and abilities being far superior means we have different conclusions.
> 
> Where I find 2.4's on 25mm lacking confidence is when landing an off camber jump, for example. The side knobs feel like they fold over a little and front end wants to wash out. Could be due to my lack of technique or the low tyre pressures. Had one ride with 2.4s on a set of 23's, took them straight off. :/ Cheers.


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## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

chomxxo said:


> That’s because you’re correct. 25mm rims are too small for 2.4s. Look at the original “klunker” bikes, aka beach cruisers. As with road bikes or vehicles, rims slightly narrower than the tire width are the ideal size. They support the tire much better and they provide more volume.
> 
> If you asked a mechanic to install tires on your car at the same ratio as 25mm-55mm tires, he’d look at you as if you’d lost your mind and would refuse to do it for safety’s sake. Even Jeeps don’t have anywhere near a 2:1 ratio in rim and tire width.
> 
> Only those fixated on the status quo don’t see this. I have a set of 39mm ID wheels and I can tell you, even 2.2s perform well with them. 30mm is a great starting point these days, and in less than a decade we’ll be at 35mm.


Chom, respectfully, where I struggle with some of your posts is the way in which you insist 'your' way is the only way. Which is simply not true. We ride different trails, different bikes and presumably with a different style. It can be expected that different setups work equally well for each of us.

1. I don't ride a car. I ride a MTB.

2. "Only those fixated... blah blah." You beat this drum often, loudly. Could I just as easily say, your fixation on wide rims and short stems blinds you to the alternatives?
2a. Speaking just for me, obviously, I will ride any brand or equipment type that brings performance and/or enjoyment to mtbing! For the rocky terrain I ride, wide rims have positive and negative attributes. The wider rims tend to expose more sidewall, so I got more flats because of it, out-weighing the possibility of extra tyre support.

I did a challenging ride today on the xc bike, musing over tyre/rim choices throughout. The first half consists of a 1000m climb and then bombing down a rough, rocky and rutted DH. Second half includes a highly exposed DH that makes most of the local Enduro-bros blush... Not once did I think, wow, if only my rims were wider! I also didn't have to think as much about protecting tyre sidewalls, which is important to me, I like to point and shoot my way down.

Actually, the biggest takeaway from today's ride, on that second steep DH with its way too sharp loose switchbacks, I felt more in control on the 100mm Oiz than I did earlier in the week riding a longer/lower/slacker DC bike!! The way the Oiz pirouettes is an advantage... The xc tyres, not so much. ,

Please let me take back what I said up the page. Except when my poor jumping skills rear their head, which is a very small portion of my riding, 25mm is great with 2.4mm Reckon Race's!

3. Let's remember where we started. Someone asked about 25/27/30mm ID, which one to buy.... I was wrong to say 27mm. Impossible for me to know what is best for another person, especially a stranger on the internet.

Bottom line, horses for courses and jockeys.

Sorry for the novel, cheers.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

joebusby said:


> Re: tyre pressures
> 
> www.perpetualdisappointment.co.uk/what-tyre-pressures-to-top-ews-enduro-and-world-cup-downhill-riders-use/amp/
> 
> ...


Pro XCO racers (identifying as male) also weigh between 58 to 75 kg so 17psi is doable with their skill level . They still puncture and don’t pay for rims (at least not retail).
@joebusby thanks for the articles. This echoes what learned over the weekend. We had a skills session on Saturday with Luke Moir and Theo Erlangsen where they shared their bike set up tips and gave insights to what the top racers (both sexes) are doing. In DH and EWS the trend is to run tyres harder to bite into loose terrain. For XC it’s going similarly but with thinner lighter tyres. They still slightly below it above 20 psi front 22-23 rear. Dh some guys are up at 30psi rear to prevent tyres rolling off.
XC it’s slightly different as they don’t typically corner as hard nor have to cater for rough terrain so it’s a compromise between tyre footprint for best traction and reduced footprint and support for lowest rolling resistance.

as for Choma’S comment on rim width, keep drinking that cool aid. A rim as wide as the tyre in mountain Biking is going to severely compromise cornering. A rim that wide will roll over the top of the tyre and strike the ground often. The rim needs the tyre to protect it from the terrain as it deflects sideways under cornering load. Klunker tyres are built to support load on a firm surfaces so this works there. A motorised comparison would be the difference in rim design for MotoGP vs motoX. The former uses rounder low profile tyres on a very wide rim. The latter uses a narrower rim with a taller tyre to allow the tyre to roll sideways under it. I agree for more supper a wider rim is helpful but bicycles don’t travel fast enough for it to really matter from a tyre dynamics perspective. A wider rim is stiffer (usually) and this helps make handling for predictable. A rim with some give will be more forgiving in rocky terrain but it is compromised in smoother terrain where it’s flex creates other problems


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Lahrs said:


> Chom, respectfully, where I struggle with some of your posts is the way in which you insist 'your' way is the only way. Which is simply not true. We ride different trails, different bikes and presumably with a different style. It can be expected that different setups work equally well for each of us.
> 
> 1. I don't ride a car. I ride a MTB.
> 
> ...


A verygood post that highlights the different strokes for different folks mantra. 
I would definitely buy 25mm rims. They’re generally lighter for the same strength. They will be a little more flexible and some of that can be compensated for with spike selection and tension at the expense of wheel durability. If race day only then why not?

When I added wide lightning to my wheel portfolio in 2016 they were just too wide for the 2.25 Vittoria tyres I was using. I had to switch to maxxis WT version to get the bike handling properly again. Today most tyres are built to work on wider rims as well as older narrower rims. I have riding buddies on older roval wheels at 21mm and 23mm. No problems with pinch flats if the right pressure is used. Pinch flats don’t only occur when rolling straight ahead. They also occur when leaning the bike and the contact patch want to meet the side wall.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I don't really get into personal debates, it invariably leads to thread churn. But thanks for admitting that 27mm ID is not the ideal in any sense. The only thing I'd insist upon is that the current status quo on rim width is not the ideal at all. These kind of things are marginal gains that are hard to prove in themselves, but in a few years, they add up to obviously better.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Relevant illustration of rim width vs casing width.
If we want the tire to mount up the same width, there are many ways to do it. From narrow rim wide casing tire. To very wide rim and narrow casing tire as illustrated left to right in this image.
Toward the left side, we get better angle to promote tire flex and more tire height to prevent pinch flat.
Toward the right side, we get more stability support and more aerodynamically efficient shape.

Modern road bike found the sweet spot to be between 3rd and 4th illustration for aerodynamic and ultra high speed cornering. Road surface provide plenty of grip and people rail down corner at 70 km/h using 0.7mm thin sidewall casing tire made of cotton or nylon.

Now, what is right for MTB? MTB tire, as aggressive as it looks, can't hook loose ground as hard as road tire on tarmac and we don't travel as fast. So stability (from the rim, mtb tire sidewall is more rigid than road by default) and aerodynamic aren't needed as much. But we want more pinch flat protection. So, I'd assume it's more toward the left side of the illustration.
Definitely not the left most combo (that's like 60mm tire on 15mm IW rim) tho, as it provide too little support. In my eyes, second one which illustrate 60mm tire on 30mm IW rim look to be the one to aim for.










I'd be interested to read if wider rim pair with thinner tire casing perform better or worse than narrower rim (to save weight) then put weight back on thicker tire casing (more stability on the tire sidewall).

PS. this post does not touch the tread and knobs design implication of the current tire offerings. Which is another can of worm.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> Low?? I am flirting with that 15psi range nowadays. That being said depending on tire gauges one persons 15psi is anothers 23.


this is the absolute truth. I've been using the same Joe Blow pump for 19 years. On my usual 2.2 bontrager XR tires, I use 21-24 psi. That's the sweet spot between squirm, comfort, on dirt and pavement for me. But I decided to really experiment before my favorite XC rate october 1. For two weekends I drove 3 hours to the race venue up in WI, and rode the track. I brought my shock pump and tire pump and started doing laps, then changing and dropping pressures and writing it down, then do a lap, take notes, until I got my perfect feel for shocks and tires. Tires stayed around 20 psi only on dirt.

So I really dig this, thought how cool to feel a few psi difference on a trail. So I go and buy an SKS digital tire gauge. $25 bucks or so. Figure this will be more precise. It tells me my 22 psi is 14.3 psi. Hmm, I try again on a few bikes, always shows this big of a difference between analog pump gauge and digital. That can't be I says, and return it and buy another. Same thing. 

No way I'm "really" in the 14 psi range. I'm not a Tom Pidcock size guy, and I hate squishy tires, I'm old, and grew up with rock hard tires...so I tend to lean more psi than others kind of.

Now, if it was 2 psi one way or the other, I would take that, just get used to the new number, and stick with that for consistency.

But the fancy digital gauge was probably off by a lot.

It officially ruined my ability to listen to anyone, ever, tell me what psi they use and have that mean anything at all. It's a useless number unless you are using the same gauges.

Why I typed all that out, I don't know. No one really cares. Back to work I go.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Like everything in mountain biking the question "What rim width" is way more complex than one side is best. Riding style, terrain, what type of tire you are running, inserts, and feel play a huge roll.

25mm ID rims are used all the time in DH and Enduro racing. You put a DH casing tire on with and insert and it is really hard to get the tire to flex and find grip. At the same time you run a super supple 2.4 170 TPI XC tire on a 25mm rim at 15psi and sidewall support is an issue under hard cornering.

Right now it seem that industry is settling on 30mm as the standard. Talking with some of my connections it seems everybody is moving that direction for just about all their wheels. But the movement that way isn't being driven by performance data or preference of competent riders, it is being moved by sales. If your wheel set has 25mm or 27mm internal width you are losing sales.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ShortTravelMag said:


> this is the absolute truth. I've been using the same Joe Blow pump for 19 years. On my usual 2.2 bontrager XR tires, I use 21-24 psi. That's the sweet spot between squirm, comfort, on dirt and pavement for me. But I decided to really experiment before my favorite XC rate october 1. For two weekends I drove 3 hours to the race venue up in WI, and rode the track. I brought my shock pump and tire pump and started doing laps, then changing and dropping pressures and writing it down, then do a lap, take notes, until I got my perfect feel for shocks and tires. Tires stayed around 20 psi only on dirt.
> 
> So I really dig this, thought how cool to feel a few psi difference on a trail. So I go and buy an SKS digital tire gauge. $25 bucks or so. Figure this will be more precise. It tells me my 22 psi is 14.3 psi. Hmm, I try again on a few bikes, always shows this big of a difference between analog pump gauge and digital. That can't be I says, and return it and buy another. Same thing.
> 
> ...


Wait unitl you start doing math on what temperature change does to the pressure in your tires. I set my tires at 16psi yestereday in the 20C basement, on the coldest part of the ride it was -3C. Which means that I probably had around 13psi in the tires. Or in the summer when I do same thing and ride in the sun I am probably end up with 20psi in the tires.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

My 2016 Top Fuel has/came with DT 19mm ID rims. I've been running 2.2 tires on it ever since. Works fine. I had a summer wheelset built for my fatbike, used Arch rims at 28mm id. I originally used 2.4 tires, but since switched to very narrow 2.2 thunder burts. Noticed no difference. So I'm firmly in the camp of "close enough" within reason on rim ID and tire width. Up to high 20's for xc tires, over that if using bigger tires, and that's good enough.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> Wait unitl you start doing math on what temperature change does to the pressure in your tires. I set my tires at 16psi yestereday in the 20C basement, on the coldest part of the ride it was -3C. Which means that I probably had around 13psi in the tires. Or in the summer when I do same thing and ride in the sun I am probably end up with 20psi in the tires.


I gave up with my 26x4 fat tires even trying to find a psi I can use consistently. I ended up not even using my pump gauge at all. I just over fill them and then let pressure out the first few minutes of a cold/snow ride or race until I get that sweet spot. Because you're right, a 20 degree temp change and I'd be adding more or losing more to get that feel.

Of course fat tire bikes require this more than my XC tires in the spring/summer/fall. But still.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Relevant illustration of rim width vs casing width.
> If we want the tire to mount up the same width, there are many ways to do it. From narrow rim wide casing tire. To very wide rim and narrow casing tire as illustrated left to right in this image.
> Toward the left side, we get better angle to promote tire flex and more tire height to prevent pinch flat.
> Toward the right side, we get more stability support and more aerodynamically efficient shape.
> ...


The amount of dings on my wide lightnings fitted with 2.00 tyres told me the tyre was to narrow. The poor handling made things interesting too. Riding through lose rocky terrain would cause large stones to roll under the tyre and hit the rims. Fitted with 2.35 tyres there was far fewer rock strikes. Even with my Zero2 Carbon Race 27's I need to run a wider tyre to reduce rock strikes. I've had to repair one small puncture hole caused by rocks hitting the rim with a narrow 2.2 Kenda. (probably a 2.1 in real terms). Current tyre and rim combo are closer to your 2nd from the left image which I think is ideal for my conditions


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

ShortTravelMag said:


> this is the absolute truth. I've been using the same Joe Blow pump for 19 years. On my usual 2.2 bontrager XR tires, I use 21-24 psi. That's the sweet spot between squirm, comfort, on dirt and pavement for me. But I decided to really experiment before my favorite XC rate october 1. For two weekends I drove 3 hours to the race venue up in WI, and rode the track. I brought my shock pump and tire pump and started doing laps, then changing and dropping pressures and writing it down, then do a lap, take notes, until I got my perfect feel for shocks and tires. Tires stayed around 20 psi only on dirt.
> 
> So I really dig this, thought how cool to feel a few psi difference on a trail. So I go and buy an SKS digital tire gauge. $25 bucks or so. Figure this will be more precise. It tells me my 22 psi is 14.3 psi. Hmm, I try again on a few bikes, always shows this big of a difference between analog pump gauge and digital. That can't be I says, and return it and buy another. Same thing.
> 
> ...


Yes, but also no. Just because you've had a few bad experiences with gauges that are precise but inaccurate doesn't mean objective accuracy doesn't exist. 

Before I bought my digital smartgauge d2 I tested it against 4 in the shop and a quark tyrewiz. One was vastly out, the others within 0.2psi range. I tested this against two manual gauges for car racing, +/- 0.1psi. Now, I know my track pump reads 2psi low so I compensate. 

That's fine, but when we're talking tyre pressure or comparing with pros or industry institutions (eg Silva) then yeah, I'm confident my xpsi is what Silca have indicated is the ideal pressure in their testing for a given course. I'll then conduct the course pre ride and adjust a little if I need more support or more bump absorption. 

This, and the corresponding work to get a shock pump that is accurate, is an oft ignored bit of work that could have most people racing faster for less energy. 

Or don't please, if you're over in the UK and racing me!


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Now we're working towards facts, very good. Good observation that rim width ratio in relation to tire width have both grown together on the road, and the ratio is much slimmer.

I'd challenge the notion that 2:1 width to rim ratio is ideal for mountain bikes. Remember that for wider rims, you also get lower available pressures. So you get better float and corner-hugging, but less flop and pinch flats.

This can be tested, objectively, but it's gonna be tricky.



Hexsense said:


> Relevant illustration of rim width vs casing width.
> If we want the tire to mount up the same width, there are many ways to do it. From narrow rim wide casing tire. To very wide rim and narrow casing tire as illustrated left to right in this image.
> Toward the left side, we get better angle to promote tire flex and more tire height to prevent pinch flat.
> Toward the right side, we get more stability support and more aerodynamically efficient shape.
> ...


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Is anybody running a 9Point8 dropper post? Particularly the Fall Line R?


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

Have these sources about rim width considerations been cited yet? Links plus my selection of best summary given below:









The Rim Width Test | Bicycle Rolling Resistance


A test of 3 road bike tires, 3 gravel bike tires, and 3 mountain bike tires which we tested on 18, 22, and 26 mm internal width rims.




www.bicyclerollingresistance.com




”What we've found is that there is only a very small difference between the different rim widths when we adjust the air pressure for the increase in tire volume that comes with a wider rim. 
Peak rolling resistance performance seems to be reached when the rim width is somewhere between 65% and 75% of the specified width of the tire. Our other conclusion is that a rim width that is within 50 to 80% of the specified tire width results in performance that is within 99% of peak performance. 
Only when the rim is narrower than 50% of the specified width of the tire, performance starts to drop-off at a faster rate. The drop-off is small as you'll still get 95% of peak performance when the rim has a width of only 30% of the specified width of the tire.”









Myths Debunked: Wide Tires DON'T Need Wide Rims


Our series of 'Myths in Cycling' continues with a look at rim width. You often hear that wider tires should run on wider rims. Intuitively, that seems to make sense – match the wider tire to a wider rim. You also hear that wider rims…




www.renehersecycles.com





Rim width doesn’t matter for supple tires. You can run our widest Rene Herse tires on relatively narrow rims – or on wide rims. There will be little or no discernible difference in how the tires feel and corner.
Don’t use a rim that is too wide for your tires. Refer to the ETRTO chart (above) for guidance.
Using the tire sidewalls to hold up the rider results in a regressive spring rate. This can result in the tire collapsing suddenly.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

joebusby said:


> Yes, but also no. Just because you've had a few bad experiences with gauges that are precise but inaccurate doesn't mean objective accuracy doesn't exist.
> 
> Before I bought my digital smartgauge d2 I tested it against 4 in the shop and a quark tyrewiz. One was vastly out, the others within 0.2psi range. I tested this against two manual gauges for car racing, +/- 0.1psi. Now, I know my track pump reads 2psi low so I compensate.
> 
> ...


I tend to replace the stock gauge on the shock pumps with a calibrated pneumatics gauge. That was till I found an engineering vendor down the road from my office.they calibrate all our laboratory airpressure gauges so now they also calibrate my shock pump and floor pump.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

The first link is full of good facts, peak rolling resistance is achieved where the rim width has less than a 2:1 ratio. When the rim is 50% or narrower, rolling resistance decreases. Solid fact there, pretty much establishes my point in stone.

Unfortunately in the first link from bicyclerollingresistance, the test examples are outdated, with the max rim width being a mere 26mm.

The second link is painful to read, gravel/touring frame builders leaning back and reeling off anecdotes while wearing cycling caps. The only observation close to facts is the appeal of tubulars, but they fail to realize that normal tires are less round when paired with narrow rims. They are more "O-shaped" when being paired with wide rims. That's as close as Rene Herse comes to valid observations.

But besides all that, for gravel bikes, their forte and not mountain bikes, they still recommend a 20% difference in rim width to tire width (not 50%).



Ptor said:


> Have these sources about rim width considerations been cited yet? Links plus my selection of best summary given below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Ptor said:


> Have these sources about rim width considerations been cited yet? Links plus my selection of best summary given below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A small pet-peeve of mine is when things like rolling resistance are meansured in watts not newtons. Watts is a function of velocity, in this test the velocity they use is 8m/s. A speed way higher than what we actually average racing.

Just to give context, if you calculate the newtons of rolling resistance between different rim widths you get a 0.08N differential, basically the force required to hold an 8gram weight. The difference is so small that extra weight of the wider rim is probably a bigger theoretical time cost.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> The first link is full of good facts, peak rolling resistance is achieved where the rim width has less than a 2:1 ratio. When the rim is 50% or narrower, rolling resistance decreases. Solid fact there, pretty much establishes my point in stone.
> 
> Unfortunately in the first link from bicyclerollingresistance, the test examples are outdated, with the max rim width being a mere 26mm.
> 
> ...


I think you’re claiming your own conclusions that suits your narrative (again).
They sayvrim width at 65-75% of the specified tyre width is the sweet spot. Practically aim for around 50%.

but


> So should we always try to aim for a rim width of 65% to 75% of the specified width? Probably not as we're only talking about rolling resistance and the 1% peak performance advantage can easily be lost in other areas of the tire and rim's performance.
> 
> 
> Also, be aware that not all tires have a wide enough tread for use on very wide rims. Tires will be squared off more on wide rims and you might run out of tread resulting in a loss of grip at high lean angles.
> ...


tyre height gain has a positive impact on gearing if you can produce the extra power to drive the slightly taller gear. A gain in height is a gain in frontal area which is more drag so a bit more power required for that.

they don’t tear a rim wider than 26mm but even so the results of the their rim test are essentially inconclusive. There is no mention of the number of runs. There is no norm established. They use three different wheels with similar make and model hubs but this in itself is a test fail as they are essentially three different tests. The test should be conducted with a width adjustable rim to normalise the big friction producer.
adjusting hun cones won’t cut it as there is still significant difference between three different hubs. They could strip the wheels and swap the bibs around and repeat to normalise the hub friction.
Lastly the results are statistically insignificant. At best we’re talking about 1W which can be accounted for by the losses in the hub and overall wheel build; roundness, spoke tension, resonance from the tyres. Maybe they did a lot more but I don’t see it in the write up.

the last link was a good read. The writer seems to understand basic geometry. If you take a flat piece of material and join the two ends as close together as possible you end up with a circle (especially if there’s more than atmospheric pressure inside. The whole thing about pressure acting equally in all directions is pretty mush established basic physics taught in high school. Take those two ends away from each other and you end up with a U (<—- can you see it ?) and guess what ….? Yes you guessed it the pressure still acts equally in all directions so there’s no more support for the tyre from its sidewalls. If there is then there is going to be more hysteresis (more rolling resistance). So they’re spot on in the article.
So why would the rolling resistance test contradict this?
Bogus test? I already pointed why I think it’s suboptimal and still delivers statistically insignificant results.
lets not forget that wide rims allow hookless rims to function reliably. And they’re cheaper to manufacture, sell for top dollar so a great investment opportunity.
Round tyres are much better for handling corners than U shaped tyres.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

It looks like there’s an updated Orbea Oiz being released soon. 3rd November 2022 for the official announcement.

120mm rear travel and the frame has a straight seat tube along with a substantially thinner top tube than before and changed cable routing, possibly now routed through the upper headset bearing as only the fork lockout and front brake cables are visible.

It’s likely to be lighter than the previous version I’d have thought.


----------



## office (Aug 8, 2007)

I bought that Topeak digital gauge everyone uses. For presta valves it's kind of worthless. If you're not dead on accurate pushing it on air excapes like crazy and I can use it 10 times and get multiple readings.

I have a Joe Blow floor pump that's wildly off. I know where on the gauge where my tires feel good though and just pump to there every time.


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## JimiMimni (Jun 2, 2008)

mail_liam said:


> Is anybody running a 9Point8 dropper post? Particularly the Fall Line R?


I've been riding one of these for about a year and it is ok. It needs lubrication and air pressure every few weeks or the return becomes slow. I was really bent out of shape with it needed service on a trip, and I hadn't expected it, nor was really prepared for it to need service so soon. Obviously the second bit is a me problem, not a product problem. This can be as simple as dribbling some Squirt chain lube around the seal and rotating the saddle out of the way to access the pressure valve, but most droppers require you to service them annually, or bi-annually if you ride frequently. Setting the cable length is tedious, relative to other posts I've installed, but if you're interested in swapping posts out or something silly like that, they're easy to move between frames. They label this as a selling point and I can't comprehend moving one post between two frames. 

In truth the shining star in my purchase has been the ThumB remote simply because of it's versatility. I can mount it close enough to my lockout switch that actuating the dropper releases the lockouts almost every time I hit the lever. Or, if I need to I can mount it upright and get easier access to the lever, or I could mount it on the right side of the bar. It's a clever bit of kit that I appreciate and want to give 9point8's engineers credit for creating.

Another big selling point is that I can get 125mm travel out of the post for nearly the same mass as Fox's Transfer SL in 100mm. On race day that doesn't matter, but for training and getting the XC bike out of its comfort zone, that is rather nice.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

WR304 said:


> It looks like there’s an updated Orbea Oiz being released soon. 3rd November 2022 for the official announcement.
> 
> 120mm rear travel and the frame has a straight seat tube along with a substantially thinner top tube than before and changed cable routing, possibly now routed through the upper headset bearing as only the fork lockout and front brake cables are visible.
> 
> ...


I haven't seen any geometry charts but I suspect that seat angle has been steepened and reach has been increased to match. Head Angle probably a degree slacker too.

I am really not looking forward to routing cables through the stem.


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

office said:


> I bought that Topeak digital gauge everyone uses. For presta valves it's kind of worthless. If you're not dead on accurate pushing it on air excapes like crazy and I can use it 10 times and get multiple readings.
> 
> I have a Joe Blow floor pump that's wildly off. I know where on the gauge where my tires feel good though and just pump to there every time.


I think you're just being a bit ham fisted. It used to do that, but now I know to perfectly align the ptesta valve with the head and when you push in there is no air loss. If you mash it on - yeah it punches air out.


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## mtballday (Aug 19, 2007)

WR304 said:


> It looks like there’s an updated Orbea Oiz being released soon. 3rd November 2022 for the official announcement.
> 
> 120mm rear travel and the frame has a straight seat tube along with a substantially thinner top tube than before and changed cable routing, possibly now routed through the upper headset bearing as only the fork lockout and front brake cables are visible.
> 
> ...


I'd like to see them spec a version with 120mm both ends but geo and build spec for full-blast XC racing.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

JimiMimni said:


> I've been riding one of these for about a year and it is ok. It needs lubrication and air pressure every few weeks or the return becomes slow. I was really bent out of shape with it needed service on a trip, and I hadn't expected it, nor was really prepared for it to need service so soon. Obviously the second bit is a me problem, not a product problem. This can be as simple as dribbling some Squirt chain lube around the seal and rotating the saddle out of the way to access the pressure valve, but most droppers require you to service them annually, or bi-annually if you ride frequently. Setting the cable length is tedious, relative to other posts I've installed, but if you're interested in swapping posts out or something silly like that, they're easy to move between frames. They label this as a selling point and I can't comprehend moving one post between two frames.
> 
> In truth the shining star in my purchase has been the ThumB remote simply because of it's versatility. I can mount it close enough to my lockout switch that actuating the dropper releases the lockouts almost every time I hit the lever. Or, if I need to I can mount it upright and get easier access to the lever, or I could mount it on the right side of the bar. It's a clever bit of kit that I appreciate and want to give 9point8's engineers credit for creating.
> 
> Another big selling point is that I can get 125mm travel out of the post for nearly the same mass as Fox's Transfer SL in 100mm. On race day that doesn't matter, but for training and getting the XC bike out of its comfort zone, that is rather nice.


Thanks Jimi!
That's good info. That's similar to another piece of feedback I received which doesn't give me confidence to get one.

I have a PNW Loam and it's fantastic. 

My main reason for changing was for the Forehead seat clamp, but it's definitely not worth a decrease in reliability given the high monetary cost.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

The OIZ has a "TR" 120mm front/rear version already available in the current model year. Besides high-quality frame construction, unfortunately that's all there is to like about the bike. And by the looks of the screenshot, the head tube angle remains steep and the reach is minimal. Hoping I'm incorrect about that in the 2023 model.




mtballday said:


> I'd like to see them spec a version with 120mm both ends but geo and build spec for full-blast XC racing.





WR304 said:


> It looks like there’s an updated Orbea Oiz being released soon. 3rd November 2022 for the official announcement.
> 
> 120mm rear travel and the frame has a straight seat tube along with a substantially thinner top tube than before and changed cable routing, possibly now routed through the upper headset bearing as only the fork lockout and front brake cables are visible.
> 
> ...


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## Skyline35 (May 24, 2005)

office said:


> I bought that Topeak digital gauge everyone uses. For presta valves it's kind of worthless. If you're not dead on accurate pushing it on air escapes like crazy and I can use it 10 times and get multiple readings.


I learned this tip from an Amazon review years ago. Remove the spring from the head and it will work perfectly for presta:








And it will still work for schrader. In presta mode, that brass piece is loose. Use gravity to position it, then switching to schrader mode will lock it in place, and now I can check my car tires.

Hope this helps.


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## office (Aug 8, 2007)

joebusby said:


> I think you're just being a bit ham fisted. It used to do that, but now I know to perfectly align the ptesta valve with the head and when you push in there is no air loss. If you mash it on - yeah it punches air out.


Nope



Skyline35 said:


> I learned this tip from an Amazon review years ago. Remove the spring from the head and it will work perfectly for presta:
> View attachment 2006541
> 
> And it will still work for schrader. In presta mode, that brass piece is loose. Use gravity to position it, then switching to schrader mode will lock it in place, and now I can check my car tires.
> ...


That's a crazy good tip, I'm going to try that. The spring is way too firm on mine. Everyone saying "you're doing it wrong, just do it slower" wasn't helping. I tried a bunch of ways. Any pressure on the brass piece lets air out. 

I have a really high quality liquid filled gauge I use for car and motorcycle tires so I don't really need the Topeak for that.


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## JonF1 (Oct 2, 2019)

mail_liam said:


> Thanks Jimi!
> That's good info. That's similar to another piece of feedback I received which doesn't give me confidence to get one.
> 
> I have a PNW Loam and it's fantastic.
> ...


I've been running a fall line r this season and have noticed the post slowing down slightly now that the weather is cooling off. I think this is in part due to these posts running very low internal pressures (20-30 psi) compared to other posts running many times more than that (100-200+ psi). With the lower pressures, you're likely more subject to sensitivity to ambient temp changes and the slowness that results from reduced pressure from those temp drops. fortunately a quick air pressure top off should be all thats really necessary to return it to normal speed. Otherwise, mine has been fine.


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

office said:


> Nope


Checked several in the shop, they're all the same. Hulk smash. Also next time Hulk maybe not open the presta valve all the way and push it on faster ;-).


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

JonF1 said:


> I've been running a fall line r this season and have noticed the post slowing down slightly now that the weather is cooling off.


I’ve got the same observation and solution. The post has been fine, albeit not as fast up-and-down as the Fox Transfer it replaced, but good enough. And more importantly, the offset head places me further behind the bottom bracket and allows me to obtain the position that works best for me. It was really the only option for offset and I’m happy with the performance of the post and ecstatic about how it improved my overall ride quality because of the position change it enabled.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

LMN said:


> I haven't seen any geometry charts but I suspect that seat angle has been steepened and reach has been increased to match. Head Angle probably a degree slacker too.
> 
> I am really not looking forward to routing cables through the stem.


Orbea tend to spec Acros headsets on all their bikes. This picture shows the internally routed Acros headset on a 2022 BH Lynx mtb (not an Orbea) which shows the cable layout of the Acros headset. The Acros headset also includes a 150 degree rotation stop built in. It might not be that exact headset used but it gives an idea of what to expect:


















New BH Lynx Race Carbon RC slashes cost of race-proven XC, downcountry mountain bikes


New 2022 BH Lynx Race Carbon RC slashes 1/3 off the cost of latest lightweight, trail-ready cross-country & downcountry mountain bikes...




bikerumor.com





In more Orbea news, linked to the release of the new model range, is the announcement of a new Orbea wheel brand called Oquo. Orbea have used own brand wheelsets on their lower end models for a while but these wheelsets appear to be aimed at the high end. These Oquo wheels will likely be what is specced on the high end models of the new Orbea Oiz when it’s announced:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/oquo-are-a-new-brand-of-carbon-wheel-from-orbea.html



.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This is a cool looking 3rd party shift paddle replacement for the current SRAM AXS mtb shifter.

The ad-biking SRAM AXS Quickshifter






Sram AXS QUICKSHIFT – AD Biking







www.ad-biking.com





Unlike the SRAM paddles this is a 2 piece split shifter paddle so that the buttons work either way. It appears to give the same shift functionality as a Shimano trigger shifter with AXS! I’m seriously thinking about buying one to try.


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## office (Aug 8, 2007)

joebusby said:


> Checked several in the shop, they're all the same. Hulk smash. Also next time Hulk maybe not open the presta valve all the way and push it on faster ;-).


sure you did


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

WR304 said:


> This is a cool looking 3rd party shift paddle replacement for the current SRAM AXS mtb shifter.
> 
> The ad-biking SRAM AXS Quickshifter
> 
> ...


OEM rocker already has a trigger shifter built in. You can pull it in the same way for the same shift.


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## JimiMimni (Jun 2, 2008)

carlostruco said:


> We also talked a bit about dampers (new one), 100, 110 and 120mm travel plus some hacks for using a 160mm rotor on a fork that does not support that.


As I'm considering a new SID, what is the secret on getting a 160mm rotor on there? Do they get custom lowers or some serious time with a file and grinder?


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Why would you even bother?


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## JimiMimni (Jun 2, 2008)

Curiosity first, second I don't want to buy any more rotors.


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## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

chomxxo said:


> The OIZ has a "TR" 120mm front/rear version already available in the current model year. Besides high-quality frame construction, unfortunately that's all there is to like about the bike. And by the looks of the screenshot, the head tube angle remains steep and the reach is minimal. Hoping I'm incorrect about that in the 2023 model.


Funny that plenty of people ride and race the Oiz and reading into your comments it's virtually useless as a XC bike. It's amazing it can be raced at such a high level (KMC Orbea) since it's such a disadvantage (said nobody except you). Sarrou is racing your dream bike and his results went backwards during his time at Specialized. You place way too much emphasis on your own opinion which seems to be largely developed by your misunderstood perceptions.


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## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

JimiMimni said:


> Curiosity first, second I don't want to buy any more rotors.


Most of us with a SID have had to warranty it. This would definitely void the warranty. 
The tools to do it safely include a facing tool that costs over $1k (no shop will risk doing this for you). Just don't.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Always the same slacker better discussion, and bashing the Oiz.

Anecdote - when Giant introduced new slacker Anthem in Les Gets 2021, they gave it to Indergand and Phillipe was on the older gen Anthem, with maestro and oiz like HT value.

Well, Phillpe finished 12th on old school Anthem and, Indergand on a slacker, brand new and better than sliced bread bike, 32nd.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Geometry aside, the 2019 Oiz has a huge dose of anti-squat built in the frame design. 162% with 32x10 gear, to be specific. That'll go down to a more normal level of anti squat with 34t to 36t chainring.








Orbea Oiz 29'' 2019


En esta entrada voy a analizar a la nueva Orbea Oiz 2019, un modelo que este año ha recibido una pequeña actualización en temas de diseño, ...




linkagedesign.blogspot.com





Let see if they keep it this way or make it more forgivingly plusher ride with pleb size (30t-32t) chainring.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Goran_injo said:


> Always the same slacker better discussion, and bashing the Oiz.
> 
> Anecdote - when Giant introduced new slacker Anthem in Les Gets 2021, they gave it to Indergand and Phillipe was on the older gen Anthem, with maestro and oiz like HT value.
> 
> Well, Phillpe finished 12th on old school Anthem and, Indergand on a slacker, brand new and better than sliced bread bike, 32nd.


And Nino won world champs on a 120/120 bike. Always the same older and steeper is better discussion.


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## utmtbrider (Dec 8, 2020)

cassieno said:


> And Nino won world champs on a 120/120 bike. Always the same older and steeper is better discussion.


At the end of the day rider skill and fitness play the biggest role in races. You can’t really measure someone’s performance because the head angle of their bike is a degree or two different.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

But a dominating win in a 90-minute world cup is something like 90 seconds. Nobody is saying that World Cuppers are not awesome, but yes, some bikes are measurably faster than others, and it could make a difference in placings. If someone can prove that their 1990s Klein is the GOAT of bikes, by all means, keep riding it 



utmtbrider said:


> At the end of the day rider skill and fitness play the biggest role in races. You can’t really measure someone’s performance because the head angle of their bike is a degree or two different.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> If someone can prove that their 1990s Klein is the GOAT of bikes, by all means, keep riding it


That's cute hyperbole above, but it's also a red herring. Do you really think anyone is suggesting their 1990s Klein is the GOAT of all bikes?


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

cassieno said:


> And Nino won world champs on a 120/120 bike. Always the same older and steeper is better discussion.


And Koretzky won Albstadt on a HT Orbea and swiped Nino and his FS off.

I'm not the one pushing the agenda, but responding to it.

Better rider will win. They will adapt the bike to suit them, adapt themselves to suit the bike, and win.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

It was an indulgence in a joke, but actually the "best rider will win" statement is a HUGE red herring, that being defined as: "Something that draws attention away from the matter being discussed or dealt with."

There are plenty of posters here (and former World Cup racers) who preferred a 26" hardtail to race on, and it wasn't that long ago.

If you don't believe this statement absolutely (as a person that can be reasoned with), then you can understand that a 1998 Klein Mantra will make the GOAT slower, and he might not win a modern World Cup XC race, whereas if you put Nino on his current bike, he stands a good shot at winning.

So, now back to finer points, is the new Orbea Oiz faster or slower than a Scott Spark RC? It would be hard to measure the difference probably, but it can be done, people do timed comparos all the time.

What's more important to me personally is that over the years, clear distinctions arise. You don't have to go back 25 years. Put Nino on his World Cup-winning bike from 10 years ago: are you sure he'd still win today on a 2013 Scott 27.5 hardtail? Some think he would, some think he wouldn't. One thing I'm certain of: there would be a difference in finish times.




Circlip said:


> That's cute hyperbole above, but it's also a red herring. Do you really think anyone is suggesting their 1990s Klein is the GOAT of all bikes?


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> It was an indulgence in a joke, but actually the "best rider will win" statement is a HUGE red herring
> ...
> If you don't believe this statement absolutely (as a person that can be reasoned with), then you can understand that a 1998 Klein Mantra will make the GOAT slower, and he might not win a modern World Cup XC race, whereas if you put Nino on his current bike, he stands a good shot at winning.


Again, do you really think anyone here is suggesting that the best rider will win on any bike?

Or, do you think it's more likely in the context of this discussion and the participants that what they are suggesting is that just about any top-tier bike in this genre from very recent years, when set up well, and with sufficient time for a rider to be comfortable on it, wouldn't be a significant limiting factor in results?

I'll go with option 2. Implying otherwise is just more hyperbole.



chomxxo said:


> There are plenty of posters here (and former World Cup racers) who preferred a 26" hardtail to race on, and it wasn't that long ago.
> 
> What's more important to me personally is that over the years, clear distinctions arise. You don't have to go back 25 years. Put Nino on his World Cup-winning bike from 10 years ago: are you sure he'd still win today on a 2013 Scott 27.5 hardtail? Some think he would, some think he wouldn't. One thing I'm certain of: there would be a difference in finish times.


PFP just stomped everyone at the world championships on a 29 HT. Is that proof of anything? No. But how much difference do you think there would be in timed testing of her rig versus Nino's 27.5 that you refer to?


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Best rider will win. This is a WC 2022 equipment topic, not a 1990 to 2022 equipment topic.

I don't know why you would insist we live in different times.

Best WC rider with WC equipment provided to him/her at 2022 will win.

Proven by wins of completely "different" bikes. Spark, Supercaliber, Oiz, Alma, Scalpel, Epic, Blur, Lux. All have different figures, travel, kinematics (or none).

It is about the rider. Rider on bikes in 2022.


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## mtballday (Aug 19, 2007)

I'm not convinced anyone really can measure the differences between the best race bikes in terms of lap times. Many have tried (including myself), and many will continue trying (including myself).


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Another thing I'm curious.
Except bike equipped with Specialized Brain, are there any winners (or even racers) on full suspension without any remote lockout in the modern would cup level XC field?

I'm curious because if a bike is lockout a lot, then wouldn't it hard to compare efficiency from bike to bike?


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## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

mtballday said:


> I'm not convinced anyone really can measure the differences between the best race bikes in terms of lap times. Many have tried (including myself), and many will continue trying (including myself).


Yep, plus it is course dependent. Nove Mesto vs. Albstadt the 'best' bike changes.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> Another thing I'm curious.
> Except bike equipped with Specialized Brain, are there any winners (or even racers) on full suspension without any remote lockout in the modern would cup level XC field?
> 
> I'm curious because if a bike is lockout a lot, then wouldn't it hard to compare efficiency from bike to bike?


I don't think so. There might be some back markers without lockouts (who don't get shown in any TV footage) perhaps but not the front runners.

If you look at this article about Jenny Rissved's 2022 Ibis Exie race bike (that being a DW-link bike so the one I thought of as most possible) it has remote lockouts clearly visible on both the fork and rear shock:









Jenny Rissveds' Ibis Exie in detail


Team 31 led by Sweden's Jenny Rissveds has had a major material change for the new season.




en.brujulabike.com





.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

cassieno said:


> OEM rocker already has a trigger shifter built in. You can pull it in the same way for the same shift.


The difference is that the OEM AXS rocker is a light Up or Down tap on the single rocker paddle. That's fine most of the time, It's what I've stuck with for the last few years, but can be a bit vague trying to change gear accurately when it's rough and the bike is getting bounced around.

This 3rd party shifter comes in two versions (the picture above shows the SRAM a-like version on the left which is push-push and the Shimano a-like version on the right which is push - push/pull). It has two clearly defined buttons set apart and offset, just like a standard mechanical shifter, so it looks like shifting should be easier to do in some situations.

I've ordered one of the Shimano a-like versions to try (quickshift). Hopefully it will turn up sometime in future. Shipping from the EU to the UK could be a while though...


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Hexsense said:


> Another thing I'm curious.
> Except bike equipped with Specialized Brain, are there any winners (or even racers) on full suspension without any remote lockout in the modern would cup level XC field?
> 
> I'm curious because if a bike is lockout a lot, then wouldn't it hard to compare efficiency from bike to bike?


Does the Santa Cruz use a lockout? I thought it was designed to not need one?

Also, the Anthem with LiveValve?

I'm very much looking forward to Giant moving to 120/120 and ~67°HTA for the Anthem. Admittedly I have no idea if the current suspension is as good as the Maestro was, but Anthem is super underrated.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> Does the Santa Cruz use a lockout? I thought it was designed to not need one?
> 
> Also, the Anthem with LiveValve?
> 
> I'm very much looking forward to Giant moving to 120/120 and ~67°HTA for the Anthem. Admittedly I have no idea if the current suspension is as good as the Maestro was, but Anthem is super underrated.


The Santa Cruz Blur is a single pivot bike. The World Cup riders who use that bike definitely have remote lockouts.

This article is about Luca Braidot's Santa Cruz Blur showing them:









Luca Braidot's Santa Cruz Blur: the first bike of the brand to win a XCO Elite World Cup


Italian Luca Braidot achieved a historic victory at the XCO World Cup in Lenzerheide for his career and for the Santa Cruz bicycles brand.




en.brujulabike.com





I'd count the Specialized Brain and Fox Live Valve or Rock Shox Flight Attendant as being lockouts in this context too. They may not be manually controlled by the rider but they serve the same purpose.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> I don't think so. There might be some back markers without lockouts (who don't get shown in any TV footage) perhaps but not the front runners.
> 
> If you look at this article about Jenny Rissved's 2022 Ibis Exie race bike (that being a DW-link bike so the one I thought of as most possible) it has remote lockouts clearly visible on both the fork and rear shock:
> 
> ...


Remote lockouts which she doesn’t use apparently


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Tall people complain about reach being too short and short people complain about reach being too long. Both are wrong, the problem is the company doesn't make a bike in their size.

But as long as you aren't at either extreme you just pick the size with dimensions you want. The sweet spot for me for reach is between 420 and 450, and those numbers depend on headangle and seat angle. When buying a bike I am looking for a bike in that range. Right now that is a happens to line up with a medium for most companies, if in the future those numbers line up with a small then I will buy a small. Or perhaps in the future I will re-evaluate what I think my sweet spot is.


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## sal bASS (3 mo ago)

LMN said:


> Tall people complain about reach being too short and short people complain about reach being too long. Both are wrong, the problem is the company doesn't make a bike in their size.
> 
> But as long as you aren't at either extreme you just pick the size with dimensions you want. The sweet spot for me for reach is between 420 and 450, and those numbers depend on headangle and seat angle. When buying a bike I am looking for a bike in that range. Right now that is a happens to line up with a medium for most companies, if in the future those numbers line up with a small then I will buy a small. Or perhaps in the future I will re-evaluate what I think my sweet spot is.


Reach has no bearing on HA or SA, that’s the point of it. You’re confusing TT length.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

sal bASS said:


> Reach has no bearing on HA or SA, that’s the point of it. You’re confusing TT length.


You're both right and wrong. Reach is independent of those measurements, no doubt. But on a bike with a steep STA, a longer reach is desirable (assuming zero offset saddle, set up clamped in the middle of the rails). 

What LMN is saying is that his ideal reach varies a bit based on the STA and HTA of the bike, which is correct. He's saying that ETT differences matter, which is also what you're saying, in a different way.

Reach only really matters for a seated position IF you are setting up the saddle in the same place relative to the BB, which doesn't really work on these bikes for reasons of handling and weight distribution.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

sal bASS said:


> Reach has no bearing on HA or SA, that’s the point of it. You’re confusing TT length.


No, I am not.

The frame dimensions that effect where your seat and grips are going to be are Reach, SA, HA and Stack. Effective TT length, is a function of those measurements, it shows how those interact at stack height. But that measurement is only limited to stack height. Once you are above that HA and SA play a signicant roll in cockpit size.

A bike with a 600ETT and 78SA and a 65HA is going to be have a significantly shorter cockpit yet longer wheel base than a bike with a 600ETT 73SA and 70HA.


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## sal bASS (3 mo ago)

tommyrod74 said:


> You're both right and wrong. Reach is independent of those measurements, no doubt. But on a bike with a steep STA, a longer reach is desirable (assuming zero offset saddle, set up clamped in the middle of the rails).
> 
> What LMN is saying is that his ideal reach varies a bit based on the STA and HTA of the bike, which is correct. He's saying that ETT differences matter, which is also what you're saying, in a different way.
> 
> Reach only really matters for a





LMN said:


> No, I am not.
> 
> The frame dimensions that effect where your seat and grips are going to be are Reach, SA, HA and Stack. Effective TT length, is a function of those measurements, it shows how those interact at stack height. But that measurement is only limited to stack height. Once you are above that HA and SA play a signicant roll in cockpit size.
> 
> A bike with a 600ETT and 78SA and a 65HA is going to be have a significantly shorter cockpit yet longer wheel base than a bike with a 600ETT 73SA and 70HA.


again you don’t understand, between those bikes why are you changing your stem height and saddle setback and seat height? The point is to transfer your position, which is why stack and reach are all that matters. It’s very simple geometry. You buy a new bike every year and start from ground zero on fit? No baseline position? That’s ridiculous if you do.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

sal bASS said:


> again you don’t understand, between those bikes why are you changing your stem height and saddle setback and seat height? The point is to transfer your position, which is why stack and reach are all that matters. It’s very simple geometry. You buy a new bike every year and start from ground zero on fit? No baseline position? That’s ridiculous if you do.


Your correct position is different on every bike. Suspension and ride characteristics have a significant effect on how you are setting up your bike. I even change my position to match the terrain I am riding on.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

sal bASS said:


> Reach has no bearing on HA or SA, that’s the point of it. You’re confusing TT length.


Actually he’s right. You don’t ignore the saddle set back. If you look at his reach range it falls within that allowed by seat posts of 0 to 25 mm set back. At the end of the day where your saddle is placed still has a huge bearing on how you pedal the bicycle


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## sal bASS (3 mo ago)

LMN said:


> Your correct position is different on every bike. Suspension and ride characteristics have a significant effect on how you are setting up your bike. I even change my position to match the terrain I am riding on.


Well I guess that’s why you have issues getting comfortable on a bike. You need a baseline to begin. I’ve never ever had a bike where I put it away for a few years because I couldn’t get my fit dialed.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

sal bASS said:


> Well I guess that’s why you have issues getting comfortable on a bike. You need a baseline to begin. I’ve never ever had a bike where I put it away for a few years because I couldn’t get my fit dialed.


I just know that getting most out of a bike is a lot more complex than throwing a fixed position on it.


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## sal bASS (3 mo ago)

LMN said:


> I just know that getting most out of a bike is a lot more complex than throwing a fixed position on it.


Well you should know that you need somewhere to start. Using ETT is a throw back to 95 where all bikes had 71/73 angles. Look at the highest level of moto, they ALL have baseline settings to go back too in case they get too far down the rabbit hole.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

sal bASS said:


> again you don’t understand, between those bikes why are you changing your stem height and saddle setback and seat height? The point is to transfer your position, which is why stack and reach are all that matters. It’s very simple geometry. You buy a new bike every year and start from ground zero on fit? No baseline position? That’s ridiculous if you do.


So If you buy a new bike with 2degree steeper SA you need to move the saddle rearward on the seat post rails right?
And since you have a fixed number for YOuR reach that may require a different stem length which will also be affects by the HA and the actual stack you require.
simple geometry yes that has to be put into practice with standard dimension components and has to interact with a bike with a different design ?


sal bASS said:


> Well you should know that you need somewhere to start. Using ETT is a throw back to 95 where all bikes had 71/73 angles. Look at the highest level of moto, they ALL have baseline settings to go back too in case they get too far down the rabbit hole.


if you sit and pedal a lot then ETT is quite important starting point. Ifyou stand a lot then reach is


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## sal bASS (3 mo ago)

Brad said:


> So I’d you buy a new bike with 2degree steeper SA you need to move the saddle rearward on the seat post rails right?
> And since you have a fixed number for YOuR reach that may require a different stem length which will also be affects by the HA and the actual stack you require.
> simple geometry yes that has to be put into practice with standard dimension components and has to interact with a bike with a different design ?
> 
> if you sit and pedal a lot then ETT is quite important starting point. Ifyou stand a lot then reach is


Yeah you’re allowed to swap stems, no need to keep what comes with the bike…you know that right?


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Brad said:


> So I’d you buy a new bike with 2degree steeper SA you need to move the saddle rearward on the seat post rails right?


That's what I do on my bikes.
From 73 deg STA road bike which I use 5mm offset (proprietary) seatpost and slam saddle all the way forward.
To 74 deg STA road bike which I still use 5mm offset (proprietary) seatpost but can now set the saddle more toward middle of the rail.

To my MTB which has 74.5 deg STA and 0mm offset (dropper) post, which I slam seat rearward.

All bikes have 165mm crank. All of them even have the same stance width (pedal washer on road bike, short axle XTR pedal on MTB). To make them all feel the same from pedaling dynamic. Just different on the bar position.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> That's what I do on my bikes.
> From 73 deg STA road bike which I use 5mm offset (proprietary) seatpost and slam saddle all the way forward.
> To 74 deg STA road bike which I still use 5mm offset (proprietary) seatpost but can now set the saddle more toward middle of the rail.
> 
> ...


This is how I go about setting up every bike I ride. Get the pedalling position sorted first then address the bar position for intended purpose


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

Hexsense said:


> That's what I do on my bikes.
> From 73 deg STA road bike which I use 5mm offset (proprietary) seatpost and slam saddle all the way forward.
> To 74 deg STA road bike which I still use 5mm offset (proprietary) seatpost but can now set the saddle more toward middle of the rail.
> 
> ...


This is of course a sensible thing to do, to maintain the same position on all of your bikes by using the available adjustment. The question though becomes, are you utilising improvements in bike design and geometry by changing a bike back to an old position.

Not your example so much, but say a 73°STA aged HT, 73°STA Road bike, and now a modern XC bike with 76°STA.

To utilise the lower front end and improved balance and capabilities, and to maintain the same body angles, your saddle should go forwards and upwards from the measured position on your other bikes.

All of the measurements are relevant, and it pays to be adaptable.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mail_liam said:


> This is of course a sensible thing to do, to maintain the same position on all of your bikes by using the available adjustment. The question though becomes, are you utilising improvements in bike design and geometry by changing a bike back to an old position.
> 
> Not your example so much, but say a 73°STA aged HT, 73°STA Road bike, and now a modern XC bike with 76°STA.
> 
> ...


It depends on the intended purpose. A marathon rider is going to spend a lot of time training on their bike riding long distances. Pedalling efficiency is paramount. Hence these riders spend a lot of time on road bikes or on their mtb on the road. Thats how they build the endurance needed to function at peakk for 4-5 hrs in a marathon race.
An XCO racer may not be as fussed about pedalling position for an XCO race as its only 80min long and a lot of time is spent out of the saddle so they may want to be more focused on extracting the positive attributes of their bikes design. Thats said, the range of different geometries and design philosophies in the winning bikes and how numerous those bikes are tells me that those attributes are more marginal gain than revolution. YOu see XCO racers with saddles more forward than marathon or even road racers and this is efficiency and front end traction on the steep climbs. This is also why very few XCO racers use very short stems.
But most riders are going to want to get the biomechanics right first. A Steep SA only works with a low stack and that places a lot of weight on the hands and shoulders and engages different muscle groups so,.... no I doubt they will ride the bike to focus on soley on maximising the riding style the geometry promotes. The bike has to work over an entire course not just the downhill


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I spend so much time riding different bikes that over the years I have become moderately adaptable with my fit. And I have also found over time my prefered fit has changed.

@mail_liam makes good point. Modern bikes are being designed around the idea of us sitting further forward, not all of them but it certainly is the trend. If you take a modern 120mm travel bike, with a short short chainstay, and slack head-angle and run a traditional saddle set-back you going to end up with a bike that really struggles on switch-back and steep climbs. For better or worse the bike was designed around the idea that your set-back would be a lot further forward.

I think knowing this can help you choose the right bike. I have always ridden with my saddle forward on the rails, the trend of steep seatangle (to a point!!!) works for me. If I were to choose an Ibis Exie for example, the 73.8SA would mean that I would be running my saddle all the ways forward. I could probable make the 439mm reach on the medium work, but the small with a 413mm reach might be a better choice. Where as in a Spark with a 76SA and a 440mm reach I would be a medium for sure.


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## sal bASS (3 mo ago)

LMN said:


> I spend so much time riding different bikes that over the years I have become moderately adaptable with my fit. And I have also found over time my prefered fit has changed.
> 
> @mail_liam makes good point. Modern bikes are being designed around the idea of us sitting further forward, not all of them but it certainly is the trend. If you take a modern 120mm travel bike, with a short short chainstay, and slack head-angle and run a traditional saddle set-back you going to end up with a bike that really struggles on switch-back and steep climbs. For better or worse the bike was designed around the idea that your set-back would be a lot further forward.
> 
> I think knowing this can help you choose the right bike. I have always ridden with my saddle forward on the rails, the trend of steep seatangle (to a point!!!) works for me. If I were to choose an Ibis Exie for example, the 73.8SA would mean that I would be running my saddle all the ways forward. I could probable make the 439mm reach on the medium work, but the small with a 413mm reach might be a better choice. Where as in a Spark with a 76SA and a 440mm reach I would be a medium for sure.


That’s why with new bikes you size down.. I’m on M’s now as opposed to L of old school. 😁 I’m not a fan of 40mm stems lol.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

sal bASS said:


> That’s why with new bikes you size down.. I’m on M’s now as opposed to L of old school. 😁 I’m not a fan of 40mm stems lol.


The only bike I have ridden that worked really well with a short stem was a Norco Revolver. In a medium they a monstorous 460mm reach but they also have, by modern standards, a steep 68.5 HA. This combo worked really well with a short stem. The bike was nicely balanced everywhere. And honestly the Revolver is without a doubt the best descending XC bike I have ridden. Although I suspect the chassis rigidity primarly driver of this.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This Berm Peak video is a review of the Wheeltop electronic drivetrain:





 
It was shown off at Eurobike a few months ago. Highlights are that it’s $400 USD, much cheaper than SRAM AXS, along with being programmable to work with 9/10/11/12/13 speed cassettes.


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## office (Aug 8, 2007)

WR304 said:


> This Berm Peak video is a review of the Wheeltop electronic drivetrain:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I watched that. I like his channel but didn't seem like a very thorough review. Seems like the battery dropped a huge amount in the ride he took it on but I don't use a electronic groupset so I can't really compare. Also, he might not have fully charged it to begin with, hard to say.

I watch a channel called Trace Velo - it's focused more on road but he buys lots of questionable Aliexpress parts. The dude rides a crazy amount commuting so he really digs out the flaws. A lot of times it seems they work on the bench but after a period of time something always goes wrong - some internal plastic component (that's reenforced glassfiber or metal on a SRAM or Shimano component) breaks or bearings go bad or just not having consumable replacement parts available. For Youtubers the manufacturer will ship out an immediately fixed product but I suspect the general public doesn't get the same treatment. I'm not against these type of parts (I got some cheap carbon wheels I'm using right now) but it seems like a lot of these companies build the cheapest product they can, beta test it by selling it to the public and fix what breaks. When something is cheaper and lighter - well I suspect there's some cost cutting that will come out in a longer review.


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

One other thing worth testing though is how well does it work in a mass start event? I did a race last year where there were a LOT of axs parts (you’d think they would be rare due to the price, but they were everywhere). 

At the start my quarq dropped out. IIRC My coach said most of his athletes had dropouts at that race too.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

office said:


> I watched that. I like his channel but didn't seem like a very thorough review. Seems like the battery dropped a huge amount in the ride he took it on but I don't use a electronic groupset so I can't really compare. Also, he might not have fully charged it to begin with, hard to say.


Battery level was 80% when he unbox. Then with all those settings, and 1 hour ride it come down to 75%
Still, it won't match AXS battery life, I think.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

According to the RAD measurement, STA doesn’t matter. “True Reach” is definitely important, but RAD is a measurement from the BB to the grips, not from the saddle position.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Circlip said:


> Again, do you really think anyone here is suggesting that the best rider will win on any bike?
> 
> PFP just stomped everyone at the world championships on a 29 HT. Is that proof of anything?


Actually, yeah I’ve heard quite a lot, “Nino could win in a beach cruiser.” Search the forum for that statement, I bet you’ll get a lot of hits 

A lightweight female will have a bias towards a lighter bike, but yes I do think there’s a measurable difference between bikes, even the same model year. Search YouTube, like I said, easy to find timed annual comparos.

it is quite tedious to say that one bike wouldn’t affect a dominant win. What would a FS give or take away from PFP in the same race? That’s all I’m saying, and yes indeed it can be measured. It’s just silly to say it can’t. Even if it’s just a 30 second difference—I just came in 9 seconds behind a guy at today’s season finale.

But only between the same athletes. My bike would be much, much too big for PFP


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Nino is always right. In 2013 he was right to choose a 27.5 hardtail with 2.1” tubular tires. In 2022 he is also right to ride a 5” slacked out bike with long reach, 30mm rims and 2.4” tires. Nino exists in parallel universes in order to accomplish this.



Goran_injo said:


> Best rider will win. This is a WC 2022 equipment topic, not a 1990 to 2022 equipment topic.
> 
> I don't know why you would insist we live in different times.
> 
> ...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

We all stress over the smallest changes in bikes and geometry. But really if you want a quick bike there are a couple of key things.
1. Buy the right size bike and get a good comfortable fit.
2. Set your suspension up properly, when in doubt make it stiffer.
3. Run good tires that balance weight and durability.
4. On raceday run a clean well lubricated chain

Those are the things that actually matter. A couple of degrees of head angle, a thumb width of reach or stem length are the smallest of changes.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Nino is always right. In 2013 he was right to choose a 27.5 hardtail with 2.1” tubular tires. In 2022 he is also right to ride a 5” slacked out bike with long reach, 30mm rims and 2.4” tires. Nino exists in parallel universes in order to accomplish this.


Can we assume his bar width and stem angle is right too?
Specifically, -40 degree 90mm stem
And 700mm wide bar.
That's what he ride in 2022.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> We all stress over the smallest changes in bikes and geometry. But really if you want a quick bike there are a couple of key things.
> 1. Buy the right size bike and get a good comfortable fit.
> 2. Set your suspension up properly, when in doubt make it stiffer.
> 3. Run good tires that balance weight and durability.
> ...


I think this is sound truth. Right size bike...makes a huge difference. Since I've never known how to dial in my suspension, I'll punt on that one, I just set it up once, toy with the rebound, and call it a day. But tires, I started trying to run more aggressive front tires since cornering speed is so important, it gives me more confidence having more knob up front. The rest of it is of little importance to me anymore. As long as you get used to a well fitting bike, I'd guess all else will take care of itself. That's must my experience. I suck though, been sucking for 3 decades. Will continue to suck. But still want to do my best.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

LMN said:


> We all stress over the smallest changes in bikes and geometry. But really if you want a quick bike there are a couple of key things.
> 1. Buy the right size bike and get a good comfortable fit.
> 2. Set your suspension up properly, when in doubt make it stiffer.
> 3. Run good tires that balance weight and durability.
> ...


IDK about #2, if you are referring to spring pressure. That has beat me up bad on more than one long race and I really should have done the opposite. Maybe as far as lockouts and compression damping, that I would tend to agree with, the harder you ride, the harder you need that and even when that part is set "stiff" I don't notice it when I'm thrashing hard...but I distinctly remember some 50 and 100 mile races where I thought it would be better to set my spring harder...damn that beat me up bad over the miles...Maybe if the bike relies on very little sag to have the highest AS numbers, but in my case it didn't and again, the punishment of real harsh travel was damn near not even worth the FS bike it seemed...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Jayem said:


> IDK about #2, if you are referring to spring pressure. That has beat me up bad on more than one long race and I really should have done the opposite. Maybe as far as lockouts and compression damping, that I would tend to agree with, the harder you ride, the harder you need that and even when that part is set "stiff" I don't notice it when I'm thrashing hard...but I distinctly remember some 50 and 100 mile races where I thought it would be better to set my spring harder...damn that beat me up bad over the miles...Maybe if the bike relies on very little sag to have the highest AS numbers, but in my case it didn't and again, the punishment of real harsh travel was damn near not even worth the FS bike it seemed...


I find that a bike where spring rate is too soft is absolutely horrible. If the spring rate is too stiff then you are basically stuck with a shorter travel bike, not ideal but better than a bike which you can’t put any kind of force into.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I'd bet on my unscientific assesment that Nino would be "faster" on a 27.5.

And Spark....Scott didn't design a bike to provide help Nino win races, but to sell bikes.

They don't sit in a drawing board and design the bike he would be most comfortable and fastest on. They sit on the drawing board to sell, and at the same time think - will we kill Nino's chances to win with this? Trick is it is very hard to kill the best rider of the day, and he also can put a horrendous stem to fix it.

With absolutely no scientific data to support it I dare to say - Nino wins despite Spark, not because of it, and he would be faster on an Oiz.


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## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

Goran_injo said:


> I'd bet on my unscientific assesment that Nino would be "faster" on a 27.5.
> 
> And Spark....Scott didn't design a bike to provide help Nino win races, but to sell bikes.
> 
> ...


There is published information floating around stating/illustrating the lengths Scott went to design the current Spark so Nino could have the same position on the bike. Maintaining his position was the reason for the new series of integrated stem/bar units (note: he did allegedly go from a 680 to 700 mm bar). Not being able to maintain his position was the reason he ran 110 front/120 rear (rather than 120 front) on the previous gen Spark starting from, at least, the 2019 season.

So while Scott obviously wants to design a bike that sells, they also know having your bike win is probably the best marketing of all, at least when it’s won as much as Nino. (And imagine having your new bike suddenly not win after all those years!) Part of that is making sure the saddle fits the horse.


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## RexRacerX (10 mo ago)

Goran_injo said:


> With absolutely no scientific data to support it I dare to say - Nino wins despite Spark, not because of it, and he would be faster on an Oiz.


It’s the internet. You can go where eagles dare.








I’m not so sure I agree. But I’m also not so sure it would matter.


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## mail_liam (Jul 22, 2011)

RexRacerX said:


> There is published information floating around stating/illustrating the lengths Scott went to design the current Spark so Nino could have the same position on the bike. Maintaining his position was the reason for the new series of integrated stem/bar units (note: he did allegedly go from a 680 to 700 mm bar). Not being able to maintain his position was the reason he ran 110 front/120 rear (rather than 120 front) on the previous gen Spark starting from, at least, the 2019 season.
> 
> So while Scott obviously wants to design a bike that sells, they also know having your bike win is probably the best marketing of all, at least when it’s won as much as Nino. (And imagine having your new bike suddenly not win after all those years!) Part of that is making sure the saddle fits the horse.


And that was when the general public could only get 100/100 Spark RC too.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Scott Spark 's amount of travel is weird. Unlike most other shock that only stiffen up the compression,
Spark's Nude shock mode change really reduce the travel available by blocking out part of the air chamber.
So, Spark RC with 100mm shock is 100mm only in the most open mode. Middle mode, it's down to 70mm travel.

That means, Nino can have more travel in open mode without it being too much in the middle mode.
Maybe he wanted more travel in the middle mode than 70mm?


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

office said:


> I watched that. I like his channel but didn't seem like a very thorough review. Seems like the battery dropped a huge amount in the ride he took it on but I don't use a electronic groupset so I can't really compare. Also, he might not have fully charged it to begin with, hard to say.
> 
> I watch a channel called Trace Velo - it's focused more on road but he buys lots of questionable Aliexpress parts. The dude rides a crazy amount commuting so he really digs out the flaws. A lot of times it seems they work on the bench but after a period of time something always goes wrong - some internal plastic component (that's reenforced glassfiber or metal on a SRAM or Shimano component) breaks or bearings go bad or just not having consumable replacement parts available. For Youtubers the manufacturer will ship out an immediately fixed product but I suspect the general public doesn't get the same treatment. I'm not against these type of parts (I got some cheap carbon wheels I'm using right now) but it seems like a lot of these companies build the cheapest product they can, beta test it by selling it to the public and fix what breaks. When something is cheaper and lighter - well I suspect there's some cost cutting that will come out in a longer review.


It was the first thing I’ve seen about the Wheeltop electronic groupset as a working product outside of photographs. 

I’ve been paying increasing attention to these cheaper Aliexpress groupsets too. They seem to be filling a gap in the market for customers that SRAM and Shimano are pricing themselves out of, and they also seem to be more credible as an option if chosen carefully.

Saying that, $400 USD is only a good deal if it doesn’t break!


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

LMN said:


> We all stress over the smallest changes in bikes and geometry. But really if you want a quick bike there are a couple of key things.
> 1. Buy the right size bike and get a good comfortable fit.
> 2. Set your suspension up properly, when in doubt make it stiffer.
> 3. Run good tires that balance weight and durability.
> ...


5. Make sure your disc brakes aren’t rubbing.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

^
Eh, that part is really annoying.
Brake that faintly rub on and off sometime.

But when I try to correct it. Guess what? It doesn't rub on the bike stand...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Goran_injo said:


> I'd bet on my unscientific assesment that Nino would be "faster" on a 27.5.
> 
> And Spark....Scott didn't design a bike to provide help Nino win races, but to sell bikes.
> 
> ...


Gear evolution is largely driven by the marketing departments not racing departement. Sometimes there is good overlap, the head marketing for Fox / RaceFace went toe to toe with Riley Amos this weekend at a CX race. But that isn't always the norm.

XC bikes have had this huge pressure to be turned into bikes that are good for everyday riding. Nino's 2013 race bikes was a long ways away from an everyday ride bike. Where as the modern XC bikes are pretty darn good everyday riding bikes.


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## Ausable (Jan 7, 2006)

WR304 said:


> 5. Make sure your disc brakes aren’t rubbing.


Agree, we are chasing marginal gains but we often forget about our brakes.

On both the HT (Canyon Exceed) and FS (Kona Hei Hei) i notice a small deflection of the REAR rotor when i am sitting on the bike, vs the position on the bike stand.
No issues on the front wheel.

It’s not clear to me if this is due to frame or hub deflection, but on the hardtail where this issue is bigger, I have to adjust the caliper sligtly to the left, so that is perfectly centered when I actually sit on the bike.

An important point is that the rotor drag can be completely silent (no brake rub) , depending on disk/pad combination. To prove my point, I carefully centered the rotor (no touch on the stand) an painted a few marker lines on both sides of the rotor and went for a short , flat ride without touching the brakes.
Only the right paint was scraped away, confirming that in real riding conditions the rotor shifted slighty to the right, constantly (but lightly) touching the brake pad. But I was not able to hear any evident brake rub.

This is one of the reasons I am tempted to remove my wonderful Formula Cura which are the most powerful brakes around, but have a very minimal pad rollback.


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## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

From Orbea sub forum. More details over there. Built to fly

I like most of the changes, a little longer but not too long. A little slacker, but not too slack. 120mm only is interesting. Subject to actually owning a bike with it, I don't mind headset cable routing, it's super rare for me to replace an upper headset bearing.

Just hope the upper link is more robust. It's tiring having to replace seat stay bearings and gluing them into a sloppy bore. My only real complaint of the current model.


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## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

First Ride: 2023 Orbea Oiz consolidates 10kg 120mm XC Race MTB


The 2023 Orbea Oiz XC Bike may look like a mere refinement of its predecessor, but a closer look reveals a more thorough rework. It…




bikerumor.com


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Lahrs said:


> First Ride: 2023 Orbea Oiz consolidates 10kg 120mm XC Race MTB
> 
> 
> The 2023 Orbea Oiz XC Bike may look like a mere refinement of its predecessor, but a closer look reveals a more thorough rework. It…
> ...


Nice. But as a Spark RC owner eyeing the Exie, I'm almost over the required lockout after two years. It's been near telepathic, but not having to would be even better. Exie can race perfectly in open mode. Almost afraid to check frame-only price on the new Oiz.
Subjectively having the head angle and frame specs imprinted on downtube is almost as "ugh" as Niner's ridiculous "Pedal, Damn It" on toptube: https://s3.amazonaws.com/www.bikeru...0/2023-orbea-oiz-bike-check-frame-details.jpg
Ibis does it with the new Ripmo. Sag settings, I believe.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Lahrs said:


> Just hope the upper link is more robust. It's tiring having to replace seat stay bearings and gluing them into a sloppy bore. My only real complaint of the current model.


They seem to have fixed that problem in the 2020 production run. It was a real issue in the 2019 run but I haven't had to do it on a single bike since.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

westin said:


> Nice. But as a Spark RC owner eyeing the Exie, I'm almost over the required lockout after two years. It's been near telepathic, but not having to would be even better. Exie can race perfectly in open mode. Almost afraid to check frame-only price on the new Oiz.


Oiz and Spark have significantly different anti-squat numbers. The Spark really does need a lockout where as the Oiz you can live without it. The trade off is suspension suppleness while pedaling. If you are pedaling accross flat rough terrain the Spark just works better than Oiz.

An Exie, with its complex suspension linkage is suppose to offer the best of both worlds. I don't know if that is true in practice but that is the theory behind it.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Looks good. Frame even comes in aluminum that is a decent weight (5.5 lbs) and now has threaded bottom brackets. If I was in a market for a FS bike, this would be at or near the top of my list.


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## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

My Oiz only has the standard two position Fox remote lockout. Just cruising around, I find a need for the remote. Actually, I don't really like how the bike pedals in open mode in this scenario. However, when on the gas and presumably taking advantage of the high anti squat design... man, the bike is an absolute rocket ship. Pure XC bliss.

By comparison, the Revolver with its more flat AS curve is amazing in most conditions. It's a delight to cruise around on. But I hated how it felt when out of saddle on the gas or steep climbs. Some of that could be down to the factory non remote RS shock tune. Fitting a Fox three position remote lockout shock solved that issue for me.

I'd certainly be interested in taking a spin on an Exie for comparison.

That all said, I can appreciate the ideal of less cables and complexity that comes with a remote.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

office said:


> I watched that. I like his channel but didn't seem like a very thorough review. Seems like the battery dropped a huge amount in the ride he took it on but I don't use a electronic groupset so I can't really compare. Also, he might not have fully charged it to begin with, hard to say.
> 
> I watch a channel called Trace Velo - it's focused more on road but he buys lots of questionable Aliexpress parts. The dude rides a crazy amount commuting so he really digs out the flaws. A lot of times it seems they work on the bench but after a period of time something always goes wrong - some internal plastic component (that's reenforced glassfiber or metal on a SRAM or Shimano component) breaks or bearings go bad or just not having consumable replacement parts available. For Youtubers the manufacturer will ship out an immediately fixed product but I suspect the general public doesn't get the same treatment. I'm not against these type of parts (I got some cheap carbon wheels I'm using right now) but it seems like a lot of these companies build the cheapest product they can, beta test it by selling it to the public and fix what breaks. When something is cheaper and lighter - well I suspect there's some cost cutting that will come out in a longer review.


well the shifting is slower and its lighter so I suspect they're using a lower W.hr battery in the EDS derailleur compared to a SRAM AXS battery


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Oiz and Spark have significantly different anti-squat numbers. The Spark really does need a lockout where as the Oiz you can live without it. The trade off is suspension suppleness while pedaling. If you are pedaling accross flat rough terrain the Spark just works better than Oiz.
> 
> An Exie, with its complex suspension linkage is suppose to offer the best of both worlds. I don't know if that is true in practice but that is the theory behind it.


In my recent experience Exie does pedal across everything better than the Spark. Very supple bike


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

New shifter?!


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Brad said:


> In my recent experience Exie does pedal across everything better than the Spark. Very supple bike


DW-Link bikes seem to do this well. So far, the Exie has impressed me a lot.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

The new Oiz, is a good example of how bike evolution is slowing down. When I compare it to my 2022 version there really isn't that big of a difference. If I were to choose to ride a small I would have the exact same reach as my current 2022, and if I ran the seat 3mm further back in the rails I would have pretty much same ETT. The only real difference would be a 1 degree slacker HA, and that isn't really that big of a deal.

Now have been able to make the frame noticable stiffer while maintaining the same weight that would be a significant improvement in my books.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Also the straighter seat tube adds rigidity to the front triangle so there should be a handling improvement . A newer improved fibre orientation and layup would also go some way to an improvement in this area but they could have done this with the current model. Overall it appears they’ve revised the design to be optimised around 120mm travel demands and tried to go with the LLS trend. It is likely a better bike than the outgoing OIz TR based the improved stiffeness. If I had a current OIz I wouldn’t be rushing out to sell it and get the new bike. 
since I don’t have an OIz and I like the new fit related numbers I’m putting it on my wish list. I could ride small with 75mm stem or medium with a 50mm. For racing I think the small would be the better option to keep the front end weighed on climbs. It’s the same reach as my current medium 2018 Scalpel


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## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

Brad said:


> Also the straighter seat tube adds rigidity to the front triangle so there should be a handling improvement . A newer improved fibre orientation and layup would also go some way to an improvement in this area but they could have done this with the current model. Overall it appears they’ve revised the design to be optimised around 120mm travel demands and tried to go with the LLS trend. It is likely a better bike than the outgoing OIz TR based the improved stiffeness. If I had a current OIz I wouldn’t be rushing out to sell it and get the new bike.
> since I don’t have an OIz and I like the new fit related numbers I’m putting it on my wish list. I could ride small with 75mm stem or medium with a 50mm. For racing I think the small would be the better option to keep the front end weighed on climbs. It’s the same reach as my current medium 2018 Scalpel


It looks like they made the tube profiles smaller so I would expect a similar ride to the current bike (despite the straight seat tube). I have the current bike with 100mm of travel in a Small. I'm not big fan of super steep seat tubes and longer reach. I run an offset seatpost otherwise that forward position bothers my knees a little. With the offset post I use a 80mm -17 degree stem. I like how this steers, climbs and feels-not sure I'd like a longer frame and shorter stem. The anti-squat is good, I run both ends open with some added low speed compression on the fork. My only real complaint is the bike's suspension default is fully locked. The cabled lockout has to be engaged for the suspension to be open. This setup produces a fork feel similar to the Specialized Brain as it transitions into the travel. It often feels like a slightly loose headset (and yes my headset is adjusted correctly). It's less nticeable on the rear shock than on the fork. Otherwise a good bike.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

BoyinBlue said:


> The cabled lockout has to be engaged for the suspension to be open. This setup produces a fork feel similar to the Specialized Brain as it transitions into the travel. It often feels like a slightly loose headset (and yes my headset is adjusted correctly). It's less nticeable on the rear shock than on the fork. Otherwise a good bike.


Check the adjustment of your front lockout, it shouldn't behave like that. Between my wife and myself we have had six of current generation of oiz's and we didn't have that issue.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

When last was the damper serviced?


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

LMN said:


> Now have been able to make the frame noticable stiffer while maintaining the same weight that would be a significant improvement in my books.


Orbea at least claims they stiffened up the rear end 12% while keeping weight the same:









First Ride: 2023 Orbea Oiz consolidates 10kg 120mm XC Race MTB


The 2023 Orbea Oiz XC Bike may look like a mere refinement of its predecessor, but a closer look reveals a more thorough rework. It…




bikerumor.com


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## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

Brad said:


> When last was the damper serviced?


It was like that when I bought it, I sent it back to Fox when new a year ago complaining of the issue and they sent it back saying nothing was wrong with it.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

cycloholic said:


> New shifter?!
> View attachment 2007756


I wonder if he’s been given a few different prototype shifters to ride and give feedback on.

This is the zoomed picture of the one he had a few weeks ago with two buttons placed vertically. In your picture it looks like it could be two gray buttons placed horizontally.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

BoyinBlue said:


> It looks like they made the tube profiles smaller so I would expect a similar ride to the current bike (despite the straight seat tube). I have the current bike with 100mm of travel in a Small. I'm not big fan of super steep seat tubes and longer reach. I run an offset seatpost otherwise that forward position bothers my knees a little. With the offset post I use a 80mm -17 degree stem. I like how this steers, climbs and feels-not sure I'd like a longer frame and shorter stem. The anti-squat is good, I run both ends open with some added low speed compression on the fork. My only real complaint is the bike's suspension default is fully locked. The cabled lockout has to be engaged for the suspension to be open. This setup produces a fork feel similar to the Specialized Brain as it transitions into the travel. It often feels like a slightly loose headset (and yes my headset is adjusted correctly). It's less nticeable on the rear shock than on the fork. Otherwise a good bike.


The Fox forks that come on an Orbea Oiz are a standard Fit 4 damper 2 position lockout fork and when open should feel like a normal suspension fork, no notches or strange feelings.

It’s possible that the lockout cable might not be pulling through enough to fully open the fork. If you look on the side of the Squidlock remote there are two 2mm allen head screws. These are for adjusting the tension of the cables, one for the fork lockout and one for the rear shock lockout. You can tighten those 2mm allen head screws in, which increases the preload tension on the lockout cable, so that when you press the Squidlock lever it rotates the lockout dial further for each press. That should hopefully open the lockout more for a smoother feel.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Lahrs said:


> From Orbea sub forum. More details over there. Built to fly
> 
> I like most of the changes, a little longer but not too long. A little slacker, but not too slack. 120mm only is interesting. Subject to actually owning a bike with it, I don't mind headset cable routing, it's super rare for me to replace an upper headset bearing.
> 
> Just hope the upper link is more robust. It's tiring having to replace seat stay bearings and gluing them into a sloppy bore. My only real complaint of the current model.


There’s a gmbn video about the new Orbea Oiz here with a factory tour here. It’s not ground breaking but looks like an improvement overall: 





 
Apparently it has a redesigned fibrelink, and also a redesigned main pivot with larger drive side bearing alongside the changed tubing shapes for extra stiffness.

The headset is a variation of that Acros internally routed headset I linked a few pages back. It has the same rotation lock feature and cables through the upper bearing but a custom plastic cover to sync with the Orbea stem. 

Like all these newer bikes it’s likely to work best with an electronic drivetrain and dropper post. The fewer cables that are physically run through that headset into the frame the better it is likely to work. 2 cables (brake + rear lockout) is probably going to steer better with less drag and interference than 4 cables would (brake + rear lockout + rear derailleur + dropper post).










What I would like to see is a photo of the frame at full compression of the rear suspension. That rear tyre looks like it could get very close to the back of the seat tube!


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## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

LMN said:


> Check the adjustment of your front lockout, it shouldn't behave like that. Between my wife and myself we have had six of current generation of oiz's and we didn't have that issue.


I should clarify that it does it when the wheel is lifted then hits the ground hard (spike hit). The fork doesn't top out, I've never had that issue on a Fox fork. When I lock the fork it doesn't do it so I figured there was an issue with the damper cartridge. Fox said there wasn't... It's not unrideable but there is a knock at times when riding offroad. I figured it was an inherent characteristic with the "default" locked damper cartridge and have lived with it.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

BoyinBlue said:


> I should clarify that it does it when the wheel is lifted then hits the ground hard (spike hit). The fork doesn't top out, I've never had that issue on a Fox fork. When I lock the fork it doesn't do it so I figured there was an issue with the damper cartridge. Fox said there wasn't... It's not unrideable but there is a knock at times when riding offroad. I figured it was an inherent characteristic with the "default" locked damper cartridge and have lived with it.


Definitely not working right. Should be nice and smooth with no clunk. 

Just to rule out the obvious, is your headset adjusted properly?


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## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

LMN said:


> Definitely not working right. Should be nice and smooth with no clunk.
> 
> Just to rule out the obvious, is your headset adjusted properly?


Yes, headset is defintely adjusted correctly. I am going to send the fork and shock to Fox for an overhaul this winter and will mention this issue again.


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

Boring question: xtr 12 mechs according to Shimano are SGS for 50ish t capacity, but I see lots of bikes new being sold with GS mechs for 1*12 50t cassettes. Does this work and save weight / getting caught on trail debris?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

joebusby said:


> Boring question: xtr 12 mechs according to Shimano are SGS for 50ish t capacity, but I see lots of bikes new being sold with GS mechs for 1*12 50t cassettes. Does this work and save weight / getting caught on trail debris?


The 6 grams I did not notice. The shorter cage I did not notice. In my experience it's derailleur width that makes more contact (our area it's rarely rocks but wispy clumps of thin grass). YMMV.


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## joebusby (Aug 13, 2007)

But does it fit a 50t - my question?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

joebusby said:


> But does it fit a 50t - my question?


Apologies, I brain farted. I had it on a XTR 45. No clue on the 51 or 50.


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## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

WR304 said:


> The Fox forks that come on an Orbea Oiz are a standard Fit 4 damper 2 position lockout fork and when open should feel like a normal suspension fork, no notches or strange feelings.
> 
> It’s possible that the lockout cable might not be pulling through enough to fully open the fork. If you look on the side of the Squidlock remote there are two 2mm allen head screws. These are for adjusting the tension of the cables, one for the fork lockout and one for the rear shock lockout. You can tighten those 2mm allen head screws in, which increases the preload tension on the lockout cable, so that when you press the Squidlock lever it rotates the lockout dial further for each press. That should hopefully open the lockout more for a smoother feel.
> 
> View attachment 2008159


Thanks, I wasn't aware of the tension screws but it didn't change it. I have run it open (3rd detent) so in theory when I hit the middle setting (2nd detent) the fork should already be open. The third detent activates the shock to fully open. I'm sure it's my damper. When I lock the fork out the issue goes away (so it's not the headset and is related to the fork damper being opened).


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

BoyinBlue said:


> Thanks, I wasn't aware of the tension screws but it didn't change it. I have run it open (3rd detent) so in theory when I hit the middle setting (2nd detent) the fork should already be open. The third detent activates the shock to fully open. I'm sure it's my damper. When I lock the fork out the issue goes away (so it's not the headset and is related to the fork damper being opened).


I had an airspring on one fork that wasn't properly installed from new. That fork had the feeling that you are describing.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

BoyinBlue said:


> Thanks, I wasn't aware of the tension screws but it didn't change it. I have run it open (3rd detent) so in theory when I hit the middle setting (2nd detent) the fork should already be open. The third detent activates the shock to fully open. I'm sure it's my damper. When I lock the fork out the issue goes away (so it's not the headset and is related to the fork damper being opened).


Is there a cm or so of free play at the start of the fork’s travel with no spring tension on it? If there’s no top out on the fork it might be doing that.

If so it’s a Fox fork issue that should be fixed by a full fork service. I’ve had that happen in the past.


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

is there a aero helemt w visor?


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Giro Vanquish?


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

Hexsense said:


> Giro Vanquish?


is good?


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

thenew vanquish has no visor


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Stewiewin said:


> is there a aero helemt w visor?


Any modern TT helmet


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Stewiewin said:


> thenew vanquish has no visor


There isn't a new Vanquish.
Giro replace Vanquish with Eclipse. But Vanquish is still available.



Stewiewin said:


> is good?


It's very traditional aero helmet design. Okay ventilation front to back if you can push air through the helmet at speed. It's toasty if you can't move fast enough to get the air flow.
Having built-in visor eyeshield make ventilation even worse than using separate sunglasses.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

There is also the Abus Gamechanger Triathlon helmet


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

Hexsense said:


> There isn't a new Vanquish.
> Giro replace Vanquish with Eclipse. But Vanquish is still available.
> 
> 
> ...


ok ty


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

which grip do xco racers use?


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## agm2 (Jun 30, 2008)

Stewiewin said:


> which grip do xco racers use?


If they are sponsored by a team that makes grips they’ll use those (Trek will have Bontrager.) looking through the bikes most are using ESI racers edge.


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## BoyinBlue (8 mo ago)

agm2 said:


> If they are sponsored by a team that makes grips they’ll use those (Trek will have Bontrager.) looking through the bikes most are using ESI racers edge.


Not true at all, Neff rides for TrekFactory Racing and uses ESI grips. ESI has pretty good representation at World Cups, sponsored or not.


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## agm2 (Jun 30, 2008)

BoyinBlue said:


> Not true at all, Neff rides for TrekFactory Racing and uses ESI grips. ESI has pretty good representation at World Cups, sponsored or not.


Upon further research she is running ESI grips instead of the Bontrager silicone grips. Either way, majority of the riders are using esi.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

I tried ESI but I found it's not my cup of tea.
I prefer a more ergonomic shape Sqlab 711r grip.
It's 79g a pair for size medium, 89g a pair for size large. ESI Fit XC are 65g a pair, so I pay 14g weight penalty on my XC bike using sqlab 711r grip instead of ESI.

Anyway, I don't think hand fatigue or durability advantage is an issue for a pro who would also have strong hands. So, ESI's advantage on the weight point is a bigger deal for them.


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

wats good alternative to gopro w real good stabilization?


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Nothing. It's go pro only. Rest are just bad options because you don't want to go with Go Pro.


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## ligniteminer (May 10, 2012)

Stewiewin said:


> wats good alternative to gopro w real good stabilization?


How do posi track rear end work for plymouth?


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