# Best wayto ccarry a gun.



## yellowzx (Feb 16, 2008)

I am planning a ride at a trail that has had a lot of black bear sittings this year. I have a Kell tec 9mm that I carry around town. And a small 357 that I carry on my belt when backpacking. I would rather have the 357 but am not sure how to carry it.


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## Leopold Porkstacker (Apr 21, 2010)

I have a stripper carry mine for me. Set her up with an FS rig, she’s good to go.


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

I keep my mountain lion knife in a sheath on my fork's right stanchion, just above the lower leg. That way, when I see a mountain lion, I can grab the front brake really quick with my left hand, which compresses the fork. That shoots the knife out of its sheath into my open right hand, and at the same time I'm using the momentum from braking to jump over the handlebar and into fighting position, ready to take that mountain lion on. It takes some practice, but I'm an expert at this maneuver now. Maybe you could do something similar with a gun.


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## lorsban (Sep 2, 2009)

Do you need concealment for hiking? 

Use an outside holster for the 357. Keltec in pocket. Loose shirt. Bears and other critters can sneak up on you, you want your weapons close and easy to get to. 

If belt + holster is uncomfortable, try a fanny pack. 

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


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## falconpunch79 (May 30, 2012)

They make bear spray with bike mounts

Amazon.com: UDAP Bear Spray Pepper Spray 7.9oz Bike Mount 12GM: Sports & Outdoors

They sell them at the grocery store here, right by the gun counter..


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

yellowzx said:


> I am planning a ride at a trail that has had a lot of black bear sittings this year. I have a Kell tec 9mm that I carry around town. And a small 357 that I carry on my belt when backpacking. I would rather have the 357 but am not sure how to carry it.


The bears will likely laugh in your general direction over you caliber choice, when they do you can speed away, making good your escape.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

We can open carry in Louisiana.


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## Haymarket (Jan 20, 2008)

I don't think there is not a decent place to carry for bear defense while riding. Also, a 9mm is inadequate for black bear, and a short barrel .357 really is too. On the other hand, bear spray is 100% effective when you get them in the face...no reports of an effective charge through bear spray...including grizzlies. Lots of times they run right through being shot with much better ballistic rounds than what you are talking about. So, my reccomendation is carry what you have when you want to prevent threats with two legs....for bear, carry spray on your frame if it is a big threat and put something on your bike that makes constant noise.


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## Lonecrow (Jun 20, 2011)

yellowzx said:


> I am planning a ride at a trail that has had a lot of black bear sittings this year. I have a Kell tec 9mm that I carry around town. And a small 357 that I carry on my belt when backpacking. I would rather have the 357 but am not sure how to carry it.


to many gun hating liberals on this forum to even bother
bringing up anything about "Guns",
I live and ride where we got plenty of black bears, I would
suggest bear spray that is what I carry with me on at
least the more remote rides, you can custom fit in a
water bottle to carry on frame works good.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Put a bear bell on your bike and carry some spray. Both will keep you safer


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Haymarket said:


> Also, a 9mm is inadequate for black bear, and a short barrel .357 really is too. On the other hand, bear spray is 100% effective when you get them in the face...no reports of an effective charge through bear spray...including grizzlies.


I'd take a 9mm over bear spray any day. I once emptied a canister of high-test bear spray at point blank range into the faces of two dogs that were fighting and they seemed to take little notice, it did _eventually_ stop them but not before a lot more blood was spilled.

That said, I wouldn't bother with either one. You probably have better odds of dying from a mosquito bite than a bear attack, and are at least a thousand times more likely to die from a crash.


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## OmaHaq (Jun 1, 2010)

I carry a pistol in this while bikepacking in remote areas sometimes: Concealed Carry Fanny Pack Pistol Pouch | Official 5.11 Site

Other option I have is if I want to carry a little more on my back: JUMBO S-TYPE VERSIPACK Tactical Nylon Gear Concealed Carry Shoulder Sling Bag

Maxpedition is overpriced in my opinion, but there are similar alternatives made by Condor and UTG on Amazon for like $30.

Someone mentioned bear spray holster... right on, I agree 100% accept get a big can. I've had to use it twice in 23yrs on various animals and it's worked. Just get the largest can you find though (UDAP 18CP Super Magnum Bear Spray). The 18CP holds a lot more, but also discharges faster thus giving you a lot more range. And believe me, range is what you want. Carry it on your chest, not on your bike.


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## J3SSEB (Jun 1, 2009)

Best way to carry a weapon? At the ready.


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## drjay9051 (Dec 6, 2006)

You cannot be serious about the caliber choice.
Think more like .454 Casull or .480 Ruger.

Ruger Alaskan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not getting into a protracted discussion here. Other forums better suited regarding caliber choice.

As far as carry: Camelbak or fanny pack. If open carry: maybe shoulder carry. Clearly either strong or weak side carry at 3 o'clock not an option if biking.

Anyway: good luck.

Oh yes: consider bell, spray etc but if you must carry for "peace of mind" choose caliber wisely. In other words "Don't send a boy to do a man's job"

You do know for the most part black bears are not aggressive unless cornered or with cubs.


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

How about a tactical riding pak? J.PAKS_Adventure Cycling Frame Bags: Tactical riding Paks

***


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## jrogs (Sep 2, 2012)

Bro said:


> I keep my mountain lion knife in a sheath on my fork's right stanchion, just above the lower leg. That way, when I see a mountain lion, I can grab the front brake really quick with my left hand, which compresses the fork. That shoots the knife out of its sheath into my open right hand, and at the same time I'm using the momentum from braking to jump over the handlebar and into fighting position, ready to take that mountain lion on. It takes some practice, but I'm an expert at this maneuver now. Maybe you could do something similar with a gun.


This is a great idea I want to work on but I am not sure I quite grasp the concept can you please post a video?


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Hey! Look over there! Sasquatch!


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## 6BR (Jun 17, 2013)

As I always like to say, 

a .22 in my pocket is better than the .45 you kept at home.


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## J3SSEB (Jun 1, 2009)

6BR said:


> As I always like to say,
> 
> a .22 in my pocket is better than the .45 you kept at home.


Truth.


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## drjay9051 (Dec 6, 2006)

6BR said:


> As I always like to say,
> 
> a .22 in my pocket is better than the .45 you kept at home.


Absolutely! However, even 10 rounds Center mass on a black bear ? Not sure.

Old adage is use wnat caliber allows for COM placement. But in case of bear lets be reasonable.

I believe mossad took out bad guys with .22 or .25 to temporal region. Thats up close and personal. Charging bear, adrenaline pumping, hand shaking, colon crapping: give me the biggest I can carry !!


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## 6BR (Jun 17, 2013)

drjay9051 said:


> Absolutely! However, even 10 rounds Center mass on a black bear ? Not sure.
> 
> Old adage is use wnat caliber allows for COM placement. But in case of bear lets be reasonable.
> 
> I believe mossad took out bad guys with .22 or .25 to temporal region. Thats up close and personal. Charging bear, adrenaline pumping, hand shaking, colon crapping: give me the biggest I can carry !!


I hear ya, just making a broader point that its all about a compromise and thats a whole nother can of worms. For black bears Id honestly be fine with a stack of 9mm fmj's in my MK9 as I shoot the 9mm really well. Wouldnt be the best choice but whose gonna want to carry a 12 ga while they ride either? Ive had run ins with BBs on hiking trails before and hootin and hollerin has always scared them off. The problem with bear spray for me is that knowing my luck, Id most likely need to use it when the wind is blowing in my friggin face.

My ideal carry on a bike if I really felt the need would be somewhere at the chest or hip. Somewhere that I can access with minimal effort.


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

jrogs said:


> This is a great idea I want to work on but I am not sure I quite grasp the concept can you please post a video?


No can do at the moment, sorry. Both my mountain bikes are in various stages of off-season maintenance, so they're not being ridden right now. I'm trying to figure out a good quick-release mount for a 16-ounce claw hammer on my road bike, though. It's just to keep those overly-aggressive drivers at bay. I'm thinking some sort of sheath along the left side of the downtube should work. That's within easy access and I'm always on the right side of the road, which puts drivers on the left of me when they pass. I really like the utility of the claw hammer, though, for taking on cars. The flat side to bash in windows and door panels when I catch up to stopped drivers who had previously passed too closely, and the claw side to drag along the side of the car when I catch those f*ckers in the act of passing too closely.

It's sad that I'll have to add more than a pound of mass to my road bike with this set-up, but it's all in the name of safety, and a price-tag can't be put on that.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

I carry in the remoter areas of the state because you never know when you'll come across a guarded marijuana plot or a meth lab. The big thing in Louisiana is to have a bunch of illegal aliens living in a camouflaged bunker guarding and tending the plot.

I kid you not. Generally I ride in the state parks and national forest lands on marked trails so it's not a real threat most of the time.

Not too worried about wildlife. Don't think anything you could realistically carry would do to well against alligators, anyway. I saw a couple of big ones at Chicot State Park but they weren't that big and I've never heard of an attack on a person.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Bro said:


> ...It's sad that I'll have to add *more than a pound of mass* to my road bike with this set-up, but it's all in the name of safety, and a price-tag can't be put on that.


one of these handles would greatly help your cause...


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## -Todd- (Jun 13, 2011)

I ride with Chuck Norris...


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> one of these handles would greatly help your cause...


I like the idea, but I can't have any more carbon fiber than what's already on my bike, which only has a carbon fork. Any more carbon on that bike and I run the risk of it asploding in the sunlight. And the last thing I want happening is my only defense against drivers asploding and leaving me with nothing!


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## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

A belt holster is going to work best.

If you have a CCW permit, just use the same type of setup you normally carry. But I don't carry for bears, so...


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## TonyB. (Jul 27, 2009)

Although I agree that a 9mm or .357 will be inadequate I will attempt to answer your question. I carry a mid-size Sig when I feel the need. I use a neoprene pocket-style holster to enclose the trigger and I stick it in an outside pouch on my Camelback. It fits nice and tight and the holster allows it to be drawn rather easily.

A word of caution, though. Not sure about LA but in the communist state of MD, firearms are forbidden in state parks even with a concealed carry permit. Firearms are also banned in all national parks. Not sure if either of these apply to where you're riding but you should be aware.


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## yellowzx (Feb 16, 2008)

Thanks for all the info. I would like to get a new gun, but I would rather spend the money on bike stuff. So I guess I will pick up some bear spray. I don't worry about animals when riding with other people, but when riding solo I would feel better having something. Honestly I am more worried about rattle snakes and copper heads than anything.


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## 7daysaweek (May 7, 2008)

Bro said:


> I keep my mountain lion knife in a sheath on my fork's right stanchion, just above the lower leg. That way, when I see a mountain lion, I can grab the front brake really quick with my left hand, which compresses the fork. That shoots the knife out of its sheath into my open right hand, and at the same time I'm using the momentum from braking to jump over the handlebar and into fighting position, ready to take that mountain lion on. It takes some practice, but I'm an expert at this maneuver now. Maybe you could do something similar with a gun.


This makes perfect sense but I have one question... Won't the bike just continue and tumble into your back?


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## yellowzx (Feb 16, 2008)

daves4mtb said:


> I seriously doubt that a 9mm is going to do anything other than perhaps scare the bear off with the loud "bang" it makes.
> 
> I also doubt that pepper spray will do much. And what if it is a bear that has a preference for spicy foods? It might be like seasoning.
> 
> I suggest getting one of those Norco beer growler holders, and getting the bear drunk


Best idea yet, I think it will work.


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

7daysaweek said:


> This makes perfect sense but I have one question... Won't the bike just continue and tumble into your back?


Nope. The front wheel is completely stopped so all the bike does is rotate over the wheel, and I can jump far enough in front of the bike to get out of range of that.


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## lorsban (Sep 2, 2009)

daves4mtb said:


> I seriously doubt that a 9mm is going to do anything other than perhaps scare the bear off with the loud "bang" it makes.
> 
> I also doubt that pepper spray will do much. And what if it is a bear that has a preference for spicy foods? It might be like seasoning.
> 
> I suggest getting one of those Norco beer growler holders, and getting the bear drunk


Hahahaha seasoning

Well if you're gonna get eaten, might as well taste good.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Hogdog (Aug 12, 2012)

daves4mtb said:


> And what if it is a bear that has a preference for spicy foods? It might be like seasoning.


PMSL :thumbsup:


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

TonyB. said:


> Not sure about LA but in the communist state of MD, firearms are forbidden in state parks even with a concealed carry permit. Firearms are also banned in all national parks. Not sure if either of these apply to where you're riding but you should be aware.


Gratuitous plug for a political agenda... Why do these gun threads always bring this out?


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## drjay9051 (Dec 6, 2006)

Once again: Think about this. Black bears are NOT aggressive unless cornered or with cubs.

Behaviour | www.bearsmart.com

Good luck


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

This:

Bear Pepper Spray Video Transcript - Yellowstone National Park


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## 6BR (Jun 17, 2013)

drjay9051 said:


> Once again: Think about this. Black bears are NOT aggressive unless cornered or with cubs.
> 
> Behaviour | www.bearsmart.com
> 
> Good luck


thats been my speriance ....


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## chuckeieio (Jun 2, 2013)

I'd take the 9x19 over a can of bear spray any day if that's all you got. Also Male black bear cases are on the rise so it's not only spring that you need to be on your toes when riding in known bear territory.

Beware of predatory male American black bears: Attack rates are rising with human population growth


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## Woozle (Jun 13, 2008)

I've had several encounters with black bear while riding (once I nearly hit a cub with the mom bear close by). Each encounter was up close and nearly instantaneous, both myself and the bear surprised. There was no time to react at all. Fortunately, they wandered off peacefully. If a bear knows you are close, they will avoid you if at all possible. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where you could access a firearm and discharge while actively riding if a bear was startled and did charge.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Woozle said:


> I've had several encounters with black bear while riding (once I nearly hit a cub with the mom bear close by). Each encounter was up close and nearly instantaneous, both myself and the bear surprised. There was no time to react at all. Fortunately, they wandered off peacefully. If a bear knows you are close, they will avoid you if at all possible. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where you could access a firearm and discharge while actively riding if a bear was startled and did charge.


Yup, that's why a bear bell and making some noise will more times than not avoid a confrontation all together. Have seen with my own eyes a 3yo chasing a black bear and cub. Even if i had a gun i'd rather have an air horn, unless I had a big gun and time to aim. I'd sooner shoot a pistol in the air to scare it rather than shoot it and piss it off, not to mention harm a bear with no need to.


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## Lawson Raider (Jul 24, 2006)

-Todd- said:


> I ride with Chuck Norris...


I ride with a Chuck Norris T-Shirt - even the image of Chuck Norris will scare off any attacking bear.

In a seriousness, from what I have read and watched about bears on TV (I guess the TV makes professors out of all of us right  ), the most causes of bear/human disputes would be 1) human gets between momma bear and her cubs, 2) at campsites where human left food or garbage to attract bears, 3) suprising a bear. Something along those lines.

Whatever the cause, if the bear wants to attack you - it is going to haul butt after you and they can outrun a human. Unless you have the gun very handy, you probably won't have time to dig through your pack to get your gun before the bear makes Jack Links out of you.

And if you do get your gun, it will be difficult to put a good shot placement because you are gonna be freaking out and scared out of your wits - most folks who have a ton bear running full steam at them are gonna crap their pants - I would. You would need a decent caliber handgun along with good shot placement to take the bear down in the mere seconds you have before bear gets to you. Once bear is on top of you, the game is pretty much up to the bear.

My dad told me a story of a friend of his who went bear hunting up in Alaska and was using a 308 rifle and the guy happened to get between a momma bear and her cubs and momma came hauling after him - amazingly the guy managed to kill the bear - after 13 shots and a 308 is a pretty decent round. Whether this is true or not - I don't know - it could just be a story.


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

A friend I used to ride with carried a .380 in a fanny pack, she felt a lot more comfortable carrying while riding by herself. I think she wore the fanny pack in front since it bounced around a lot less. I used to ride motorcycles (before mtbs became common) on trails with black bears, it was fairly rare to spot one, they were always headed out of the way. I think the noise of the motorbike scared them away, I imagine a bear bell (bear bell or motorcycle exhaust app for your phone?) would be effective most often. I've heard of two people being mauled by bears total out this way; one was a drunk guy carrying a cub back to the campsite. The other was a guy who tried to get his off leash dog away from the bear that the dog thought he was protecting his human from, I believe there was a cub in the area.


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## walangkatapat (Jun 2, 2009)

I used to carry a Glock 23 in the Galco Model Escort years ago. I found wearing the pack off to one side was the most comfortable.


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## falconpunch79 (May 30, 2012)

The human voice is very distinct and is considered the best way to keep bears away. While bells will definitely alert a bear to your presence, the unusual sound may prompt an investigation from a curious bear. I guess talking to yourself isn't feasible all of the time though. 

As for guns in National parks, they are allowed but it's illegal to discharge them. I learned all this for my backcountry camping at Denali (they make you watch a video and sit through a safety lecture to get a permit).


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## borabora (Feb 16, 2011)

I am amazed how little fireworks this topic generated. Kudos to both sides for the restraint!

I know very little about guns and hunting but if you shoot an animal through the heart won't it pretty much die on the spot? Just like a human? And if you have the nerve and the skill isn't it possible to hit the heart of a bear assuming you can penetrate the ribs? 
I'd go with the bear spray, personally but I think it's mostly about peace of mind any way. To each their own.

I own a dry suit (for scuba diving) with a customized pocket that was supposedly sized specifically for a Glock. I picked up the dry suit at a discount from the shop when the person who placed the order flaked out. That pocket has never held a gun but has been handy for other doodads. I have been in the water with many sharks, some big. The notion of defending myself against one of them with a gun that only works point blank underwater in an environment where the animal is 100x superior in skill has always struck me as one big losing proposition. Fortunately, it has never been an issue.


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## Sheepo5669 (May 14, 2010)

Fanny Pack is the only way to carry concealed when riding. Keeps sweat off the weapon and it is relatively easy to access. I can draw and shoot my Kahr CM9 is about a second while on the bike.

Not as fast as a true open style holster, but not any way near as slow as digging through a fanny pack. 

Also, I have carried in a top tube/stem bag, but the firearm bounced too much against the frame for my liking.

As for black bears, I wouldnt worry. They are only aggressive when you are in between them and cubs. I carry more for protection from 2 legged predators.


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## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

Sheepo5669 said:


> Fanny Pack is the only way to carry concealed when riding. Keeps sweat off the weapon and it is relatively easy to access. I can draw and shoot my Kahr CM9 is about a second while on the bike.


Not true. I carry my G19 in a Dale Fricke Archangel appendix inside the waist band (AIWB) while riding.

That being said, if you are really worried about bears, get a Glock 20 or 29 10mm Auto with some decent rounds (maybe FMJ for penetration).


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## Sheepo5669 (May 14, 2010)

Trajan556 said:


> Not true. I carry my G19 in a Dale Fricke Archangel appendix inside the waist band (AIWB) while riding.
> 
> That being said, if you are really worried about bears, get a Glock 20 or 29 10mm Auto with some decent rounds (maybe FMJ for penetration).


Congrats on being able to fit a G19 IWB... I couldnt even fit one of those IWB in parachute pants.


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## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

Sheepo5669 said:


> Congrats on being able to fit a G19 IWB... I couldnt even fit one of those IWB in parachute pants.


Jeeze, how small are you? I'm 5'11" 155lbs. Size 30 pants/shorts.


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## Sheepo5669 (May 14, 2010)

Trajan556 said:


> Jeeze, how small are you? I'm 5'11" 155lbs. Size 30 pants/shorts.


Half an inch taller and 5 pounds heavier... Seriously, id look like I have a third hip!


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## Brewtality (Jul 25, 2007)

Make sure you know what kind of bears you are dealing with when chosing your deterrent.










My personal preference is an AR platform with a folding stock, shown in proper riding position by these young ladies. I like 6.5 Grendel for the ability to reach out a touch a grizzly at 1200 yards.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

C'mon Brewt! Sexualizing guns by showing pictures of 'young ladies' carrying over-the-top weapons, and romanticizing them by terming the base act of killing as 'reaching out and touching' the target is a little much in this thread don't you think? Even if meant in jest...


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

rockerc, you're like the Siskel and Ebert of mtbr post content, or maybe more like the Muppet Critics, Idk, we've never met.
Muppets - Statler & Waldorf - Video Dailymotion


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

I've understand that bears are least often encountered by people playing loud rap music. There's the solution.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

"High port," in a United States military uniform, trousers bloused into the boots, cover on head.

Turned in my Army uniform 45 years ago (E-5, Honorable Discharge), haven't carried since.


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## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

I have a copy of 100 Best British Jokes with me at all times. If i see the (American) Bear i just launch an Armageddon of Witty British humour on it then make my escape whilst it tries to figure out what i just said.

works like a charm every time.


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## grayghost18 (Jul 9, 2013)

When I know I will be riding in an area that has bears I make sure I am riding with friends that are slower then I am. I have also found it helps to put a couple pieces of bacon in their tool bags or camelback.


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## jman785 (Jul 28, 2013)

I usually carry my glock 26 with my thumb on the trigger and the hammer (business end) pointing at the bad guy(or bear in this case). It feels a bit awkward at first, but that's the way professionals do it.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

jman785 said:


> I usually carry my glock 26 with my thumb on the trigger and the hammer (business end) pointing at the bad guy(or bear in this case). It feels a bit awkward at first, but that's the way professionals do it.


Glocks don't have hammers, they have strikers.

also:

a 6,5 anything (not even the high volume ones) is not gonna kill any bear at 1200y, not even at 400y. at 1200 is has the kinetic energy of a 22lr and since the bullet has just entered the transsonic region most likely making it aerodynamically unstable it has likely veered off target by about 4inches or so (thats a miss). That is if you could even hit it in the first place, which is extremely unlikely even with a full mag to start with. Especially in an AR platform. A bear at 1200?? lol yeah good luck with that.


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

TonyB. said:


> Firearms are also banned in all national parks.


Completely untrue. Since 2010. Obama signed the law. Must be part of his antigun agenda.
Guns Now Legal at National Parks | NBC4 Washington


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Brewtality said:


> Make sure you know what kind of bears you are dealing with when chosing your deterrent.


Oh sure... they have the guns, but no helmets?!?!


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## Entrenador (Oct 8, 2004)

falconpunch79 said:


> The human voice is very distinct and is considered the best way to keep bears away. While bells will definitely alert a bear to your presence, the unusual sound may prompt an investigation from a curious bear. I guess talking to yourself isn't feasible all of the time though.


Agreed. Human voice is the best deterrent available.


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## formicaman (Dec 2, 2011)

If you can't outrun a bear on your bike, you should train more before going on that trail.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Lonecrow said:


> to many gun hating liberals on this forum to even bother
> bringing up anything about "Guns",
> I live and ride where we got plenty of black bears, I would
> suggest bear spray that is what I carry with me on at
> ...


"Gun hating liberals". Funny.

<This guy is a liberal who carries a gun for living. I've even shot people with it.

Research has shown that bear spray is far more effective at deterring bears than a handgun. So, why go with a second best option?

Because you're a big, hairy, all-that-is-man American? "It's mah right, Gawd damnit!". Well, have fun enraging a grizzly by giving it a flesh wound or two. I'll be the guy who carries bear spray and lives.


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## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> "Gun hating liberals". Funny.
> 
> <THIS it.
> 
> ...


i second this.

Guns dont kill people P#$$ed off bears with a hole in their shoulder do.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

What about samurai swords?? I have a feeling those would be quite effective on bears.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

car bone said:


> What about samurai swords?? I have a feeling those would be quite effective on bears.


Agreed, but it begs a couple of questions:

1) What do you do when you draw the sword, and the bear takes one look and buggers off? Tradition dictates that you HAVE to draw blood once the sword is drawn. Remind me not to ride with you in bear country...

2) How best to carry a Samurai sword hmm?!?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

rockerc said:


> 2) How best to carry a Samurai sword hmm?!?


The need to ask shows you're not a true Samurai. When you become one with the sword there will be no more questioning.


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

Black Bears? . . . give me a break. I ride-up on them from time to time, and they're always running away.


I guess a gun would help if you want to shoot them in the a$$.


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## dsump (Jul 21, 2013)

I carry this 22mag in my waistband when I ride.

http://northamericanarms.com/ghg-lc.html

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## walangkatapat (Jun 2, 2009)

Ailuropoda said:


> We can open carry in Louisiana.


Same here in Orygun, but depending on what part of the State you are in it can cause other legal problems.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Everyone should read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest these tips so you will be ready for any bear attack! And while you're doing that, the bear will probably already be digesting you...

"1) Identify the bear quickly upon your encounter. Knowing your bear has some bearing on how to approach an attack. Keep in mind that color and size are not reliable sole indicators of the species of bear--even those familiar with bears can have a difficult time determining the difference between a very large black bear and a grizzly. Common features of some species of bears include:

Black bears (Ursus americanus): Black bears can weigh between 125 to 660 pounds (56kg to 300kg).[1] The color of black bears tends to range from black to blond. The bear's muzzle is usually lighter in color than the bear's body; many black bears will also sport a white patch on their throat or chest. The black bear stands about 2-3.5 feet (60-100cm) tall to the shoulder and 4-7 feet (1.2-2.1 meters) tall when standing on his back legs. Look for such distinguishing features as a straight face, a straight back line, small head and dark-colored short claws.[1]

Brown bears (sub-species "Grizzly" bears) (Ursus arctos and Ursus arctos horribilis): Brown bears are distributed across Eurasia and North America. They weigh between 660 and 1500 pounds (300 to 680kg), with the Kodiak bear being the largest (rivaling the polar bear in size).[2] There is debate about the amount of sub-species of brown bears but you can generally rely on the distinguishing features noted below. Grizzly bears can weigh about 550-1000 pounds (250-450 kg) in interior areas, while coastal grizzlies can weigh up to 1500 pounds at peak.().[1] Again, the coloring can be anywhere from black to blond, with the usual giveaway being that the bear has silver-tipped fur that looks "grizzled" (or "streaked with gray hair", hence the name "grizzly"). When standing, a grizzly can reach over 9 to 12 feet (2.74 to 3.657 meters) tall. In brown, grizzly and Kodiak bears, look for such distinguishing features as a prominent hump over his shoulders, sloping back line, a dished or concave face, large head and light-colored, long curving claws.[1]

Polar bears (Ursus maritimis): Male polar bears can weigh around 770-1500 pounds (350-680kg), with females being about half the size.[3] Found in the Arctic Circle, this bear has adjusted to life on snow, ice and in cold waters. The largest terrestrial carnivore, the polar bear's shoulder height is about 51-63 inches (130-160cm). The usual color is white and the bear's body is more elongated than that of a brown bear, with a longer skull and nose.

For locations of different bear species, see "Tips" below.

2: Try to quickly assess whether the bear before you is behaving defensively or is attacking you to clear her path to food (predatory). This is helpful for knowing how far you can rely on trying to convince the bear you're not a threat so she will leave you alone (by, for example, increasing your size, being noisy, playing dead, etc.). On the other hand, if you're viewed as prey rather than as a threat, the bear won't stop attacking you if you play dead or shout, so you'll need to find more effective defensive approaches that might help you to escape safely. Typical reasons for a bear to feel threatened include the need to protect her cubs, protection of hidden food or a carcass and surprise or confusion, fear, an impression that her space has been invaded and blocking of her exit way. Predatory behavior is usually brought about by hunger and an indifference to your human status. A greater percentage of attacks from black bears are predatory in nature than from brown bears but young brown bears or grizzlies can be predatory once abandoned by their mothers, as they're learning to find food alone and it's may be tempting to see humans as food. Remember that whatever the reason behind a bear's attack, the bear is dangerous. Here are some general indications showing whether the bear is reacting either in a defensive or predatory way:

Black bear defensive attack: The bear that is defending herself will tend to swat at you and try to bite. However, she is less likely to target your head or neck (the kill bite).

Black bear predatory attack: The bear that is hungry will often "find you" and may have stalked you. She will go for biting the nape of your neck and the top of your head. She will grasp you with a "bear hug" while she bites you. She won't be deterred from continuing to attack you.

Brown/grizzly bear defensive attack: The bear may flee or she may make a series of bluff charges to test your threat. The intended ferocity of her attack can be determined by looking at the position of her ears. The more her ears slope backwards, the more serious her intention to attack. Other indicators of an attack about to occur include hair rising on the back of her neck and back and growls. Be aware that if she runs downwind, it may signal her need to get a better smell of the intruder. When she attacks you, she'll bite the top of your head and the nape of your neck and smash your spinal cord with a powerful paw swipe.

Brown/grizzly bear predatory attack: The same indicators as the defensive attack, with increased seriousness of her intention (for example, bluff charges turn into standing her ground and trying to swipe or bite you). If she is on all four legs, aggression will be shown in the form of swinging her head from side to side and clacking her teeth while opening and closing her mouth.

Polar bear: Polar bears are usually hungry and are dangerous. It has been known for centuries that they attack humans and they can stalk a human being for ages. They will bite you in the head. Assume the attack is predatory and that the bear won't stop attacking you.

Any species of bear in your camp or worse, in your tent: This bear, regardless of species, is most likely predatory and you need to act fast to defend yourself physically. Do not act like prey--stay calm and fight back with everything (and everyone) in the tent. If you notice a bear watching your campsite, contact the relevant authorities immediately.

3) Regardless of whether you're being attacked for predatory or defensive reasons, a bear is dangerous when he decides to attack. However, the number one coping mechanism is to keep a clear head, so above all, don't panic. If you panic, your mind will go blank and you may react like a prey animal, purely from fear, which can endanger your life. Some key things to help you initially include:
Try to make yourself appear bigger than you really are. Hold your arms up above your head and perhaps spread your legs a little more widely apart (but not so as to unbalance yourself). You could also raise your jacket above your head to give the impression of greater height but decide realize that this may mean less protection on your body should the bear suddenly attack you and you can't put it back on quickly enough. Don't use your jacket if it means removing a backpack (see next).
If wearing a backpack, leave it on. It's slightly more protection than without one, especially if you need to "play dead" (see next step).
Avoid making any eye contact--eye contact can be perceived by a bear as a threat and can provoke a charge or repeated attacks. By the same token, never take your eyes off the bear in general--know what he is doing at all times.
Noise may or may not make things worse. Small bears, including black bears, can be scared away with noise. Some people believe metallic noise scares off bears because it's "not natural" and there are documented examples of bears running away from clanging metallic sounds. However, any noise may be effective if it's going to work at all. Be aware that larger bears, including large black bears and polar bears, are often simply made more curious by noise in this situation and could well come towards the noise (i.e., you) to check it out.
At night, use a strong flashlight or headlamp to shine lights in the bear's eyes, especially if a bear surprises you in your camp or tent. Even a camera flash can temporarily blind a bear in poor light or the dark.
Avoid any sudden movements and never run. Animals that chase prey for a living react to movement and running trips an innate reaction to give chase until caught. A bear is able to run over 40 mph (64 km/h), so don't harbor notions of outrunning the bear!
Equally, never hide in something as flimsy as a tent. The bear won't be fooled into thinking you've disappeared and scuttling off to hide may well trigger the predator instinct to keep foraging for you.
The common advice about climbing a tree is--don't. This is because bears (especially black bears) can climb trees very fast. Climbing a tree though, might increase your chances of survival if fighting a larger bear, like a grizzly bear. But some grizzlies can climb, too. It can also be useful where a bear is bluff charging, as it can indicate to the bear that you're not a threat. But if you do climb a tree, make sure the bear is not strong enough to make the tree fall over, and that you have sufficient time to climb high enough that the bear cannot get to you if he stands on his hind legs (which he can do rapidly). However, if you're attacked by a black bear (unless he's very big) or a smaller bear, don't climb a tree, as they can climb very easily. In this latter case, if you do find yourself forced to climb a tree, climb very high to a point where even a small 300 pound bear cannot go without snapping the branches.
Try to create some distance between you and the bear--distance is your ally while you defend yourself. Barehanded, you lack a safe enough reach to harm the bear without him harming you even more rapidly. Do your best to put something large in between you and the bear, like a tree or a rock.

4) Deal with a bear charge as calmly as possible. Some charges are tests or bluffs to see what you'll do, if anything. Even though it's hard, try to stand perfectly still and stand your ground when a bear is charging you. Some bears will be nonplussed by the lack of movement and stop considering you as a threat. However, do be readying yourself for an attack, such as preparing pepper spray or sticks, etc. during the charge. Don't use the spray or hit the bear unless you are sure the bear is attacking--some bears make several bluff charges before deciding you're not worth the effort and you wouldn't want to unnecessarily arouse the bear's wrath when she might just simply grow bored and wander off again.
After a bluff charge, talk softly, wave your hands slowly above your head and back away slowly.
If the brown bear or grizzly roughs you up a bit, stay flat and silent. However, if he starts to lick your wounds, stop playing dead; the bear is getting serious about harming (eating) you and you'll need to fight back.

5) Exploit possible bear weaknesses. There are a few things that you can try to do that might lessen the bear's chances of successfully attacking you. First, try to defend yourself on a steep slope or grade; in doing so, you can ensure that any bear will at least have a difficult time standing erect, thereby reducing his full weight force (from a standing position, a bear can benefit merely from using his own weight to harm you). Note that attacks from the side may be difficult for the bear to see well (bears' neck muscles and jaw structure make it difficult for them to rotate their necks easily, limiting their viewing range from the side), so you might be able to take advantage of this if it comes to blows. However, be aware that a bear will likely attack horizontally as well, which can inhibit your own horizontal strikes.
Bears, as far as scientists can determine, have as good eyesight as humans. While this may deteriorate with age (as with humans), don't rely on alleged poor eyesight as a defense method (namely, don't play hide and seek in full view of the bear).

6) Fight with whatever you have. If you've tried everything else and the bear is still bearing down on you, your life is in severe danger and you'll need to do whatever you can to survive. Reach for whatever you can to fight with. Sticks, dirt, rocks, etc. can be thrown into the bear's eyes, poked into his eyes, or can be used to hit him across the snout (a very sensitive part of a bear). Just take care when retrieving such objects, as you will probably be tempted to squat or bend over, which can make you appear even smaller and you might lose sight of the bear's actions as you're picking up the items. When defending yourself, keep in your head that for any defense against the bear to work, you must be quick, you must try to increase your distance, be aggressive and you must try to avoid the bear's strength (the power of the bear's strike), in that order of importance.

Do a straight-line/gut kick if you have to/can. Straight line kicks can be effective--this is the kind of kick performed by police when breaching a door. Strike quickly and draw your leg back fast before the bear has a chance to swipe your inner thigh (if the bear manages to do so, you're effectively disarmed). If on a hill though, realize that if the bear is lower than you, he will lead his attack with his head because of the difficulties of standing, so you'll need to aim the kick accordingly.
A bear's neck, skull and rigid jaw muscles can be used as resistance. If done correctly, a kick landed on the face may cause hemorrhage due to the bear's resistance, potentially causing whiplash.
If punching a bear, be aware of how useless this can be and how it can endanger you a great deal. A punch usually only works when landed squarely on the bear's nose. Where possible, avoid punching because it exposes your very vulnerable arms and hands.
Where you can, strike and move uphill, strike and move uphill. Staying uphill may give you more of a chance to inflict enough damage to the bear to give you a chance to escape.
Protect yourself above all. Be aware that you can't take a strike. The large swipes from a bear have been known to kill elk and deer in one movement; you will likely fare no differently. Use your backpack as a shield, throw things at the bear, like your pack, camera, books, shoes and drink bottle; preferably aim for sensitive areas of the bear's face.
If you have hit the bear or caused him pain, recognize that the bear will see you as a continuing threat. He will either run away or continue his assault until he has removed his perceived threat.

7) Pull out your pepper spray and use it. This step is set apart from the previous one because you may not have any spray (not everyone agrees with lugging around what is effectively a chemical weapon requiring careful handling and that comes with a hefty price and deteriorates quickly) and also because you do need to know how to use it properly for it to be effective. The first thing is to understand that pepper spray is a deterrent only and may increase a bear's anger, so don't treat it as your only response to an attacking bear. Second, pepper spray needs to be accessible. If it's tucked at the base of your backpack, you won't have time to retrieve it. Only use it if you can get it quickly and easily--the speed of your reaction matters when using pepper spray.
Use pepper spray at the moment of the attack.
Know the range of the pepper spray you have (it's usually 20 to 30 feet/6-9 meters). Hopefully you've got a big container with a good range, to help keep distance between you and the bear.
Check the wind direction. It won't do you any good to spray the bear only to have the spray fog you instead. If the wind is blowing toward you, you'll need to get to a better position, carefully. Also, if it's raining heavily, the spray may not be effective as it'll wash off quickly.
Follow the manufacturer's instructions. You need to read the instructions before you go into bear country. You will not have time to be reading them with a bear dancing around you. Different spray brands may work differently, or new containers may have different requirements from what you're used to, and you need to know this in advance.
Aim the pepper spray at the bear so that it will form a fog or cone cloud in the precise place where the bear is aiming to attack. Spray as soon as the bear charging you is about 40 feet (12 meters) toward you, in expectation of the bear's arrival and yell at the same time.
Expect a reaction--the bear will experience immediate, intense pain from stinging eyes and will probably experience breathing difficulties. An angry disoriented bear will probably still come after you, so don't delay if the spray has given you a chance to get away.
If you forgot the pepper spray, use any repellent you have; even insect repellent might cause stinging eyes in a pinch. However, don't rely on any other form of repellent than pepper spray as your anti-bear arsenal because they generally do not make any impact at all; use of them is a last ditch desperate act.

8) Consider the involvement of those accompanying you. Dealing with an attacking bear when in a group deserves mention. Choosing to hike, jog or run, camp or spend time in bear country alone isn't necessarily wise because there is often safety in numbers. This is why many national/state/provincial park authorities in both the USA and Canada recommend that some trails can only be taken when in a group of six or more people. If you're confronted by a bear that wants to attack you and you're with companions, they can play a vital role in scaring off the bear. More people means more noise and an impression of too many attackers versus the bear will often put an end to any thoughts of an attack. If there are only a few of you together, say two or three, the bear may not be as intimidated and may still seek to attack. However, the advantage of being with companions is that you can defend each other. For example, if you all drop down and play dead and the bear paws one of you, the other companion can start poking the bear's eyes and spraying the bear to get him to move away. If a bear is attacking you and you're with other people able to help responsibly, try the following:
Keep communicating clearly with companions when attacked by a bear. Tell each other what you're about to do as both reassurance and certainty of actions. Stay calm and try not to shout unless it's part of your noise strategy.
Avoid leaving any person alone with the bear. The strategy should be to stick together as much as possibly, to help increase the impression of a group that is hard to part. Avoid leaving alone any individual who could be singled out for attacking.
One person can collect sticks, dirt, etc. while the other person shouts at the bear to distract him.
In particular, protect young or vulnerable people. Do your best to shield children or panicking persons who form part of your group. Keep them close so that the bear doesn't perceive them as an easy pick and do your best to reassure them to dampen down fear or panic reactions.
9Escape as soon as it's safe to do so. As stated earlier, don't ever run. If you've wounded a bear enough to stop her in her tracks temporarily, walk away as fast as you can, heading in a direction away from her and toward safety. Keep something defensive in your hands, such as dirt, pepper spray, sticks, etc., in case you need to resort to defending yourself again in an instant. Try to move away noiselessly so as not to attract any more attention. It's probable that you will be in shock but do what you can to get back to a safe place.
Whenever backing away from a bear, do so facing the bear so that you can continue to watch the bear. Speak in a low monotone, as if to reassure the bear (and probably yourself).
If you're in the Arctic, try to get back to a vehicle or shelter where possible. Unfortunately, you remain a clear target while exposed against the vast tracts of snow. Moreover, a polar bear has a keen sense of smell (they can find a buried seal pup up to 2 kilometers away!).

10) Be realistic. The suggestions in this article are just that--suggestions. There is no one checklist for surviving a bear attack and what is provided here are generalizations drawn from a variety of sources based on people's own bear encounter experiences. None of these approaches are guarantees of survival in a future bear encounter, as how a bear will react depends largely on the context, on how you (and any companions with you) react and the bear's own reasons, which will only become apparent as your personal bear encounter unfolds. Moreover, bears are very strong. Nevertheless, knowing how other people have survived informs you that it is possible to survive a bear encounter. Above all, always be prepared and seek to stay calm; being in bear country carries responsibilities of which you should be aware before entering.
Keep bear fear in perspective; after reading an article like this, you might think bears are out to get you. On the whole, they are not, testified to by the fact that bears have ample opportunities to attack human beings that they don't choose to act upon. Bears co-exist peacefully in most areas and the few rogue bears that cause problems are usually swiftly dealt with by the relevant authorities. You can help peaceful coexistence with bears by not feeding them (to avoid food-conditioning), not encouraging them into your living space, not provoking them and by spreading the message about how to stay safe around bears. Prevention works better than cure--always follow the ways of avoiding encounters with bears or backing down well before it turns into an attack. Remember that most bears will avoid confrontation where possible."

And there you have it... pretty exhaustive and no mention of guns or Samurai swords anywhere! I particularly like the advice to try and punch him on the nose... Good luck wid dat!


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

^ I just copy and pasted that entire post onto a word document so that I can take it out and use it to help me identify a bear next time it's charging me. Thanks for the tips.


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## HitmenOnlyInc (Jul 20, 2012)

Repack Rider said:


> "High port," in a United States military uniform, trousers bloused into the boots, cover on head.
> 
> Turned in my Army uniform 45 years ago (E-5, Honorable Discharge), haven't carried since.


Turned in my Army "uniform" nearly 17 years ago (E-5, Honorable Discharge), haven't carried since.

Thanks for your service!!!!!


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## FlakoGT (Oct 1, 2012)

I found some tactical shirts at gander sports once here in Colorado. They have a nice little pocket up front to carry your firearm. I really dont carry for wild life when I ride. I mostly carry because my commute takes me under several bridges where sometimes there is groups of up to 7 men and woman getting drunk at 7am.


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## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

I use go-go gadget copter and simply fly away.

As i fly away I can always hear the bear shouting "ill get you next time gadget, next time!"


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

walangkatapat said:


> Same here in Orygun, but depending on what part of the State you are in it can cause other legal problems.


I "open carry" on my bike but I don't want to alarm people so I have a padded square carrier strapped to the frame with just the last inch or so of the grip sticking out. The Sheriff of our Parish told me that this satisfies the requirement for not being concealed.

He's a little fuzzy, actually, if a bike is a vehicle. In Louisiana you can have a gun in your vehicle pretty much anywhere at any time (but you can't carry it concealed on your person in your car if you don't have a permit).

It helps to be an ER doctor and know most of the cops and deputies in the Parish. I'll probably never get arrested unless I'm acting like a complete douche.

I have never heard of a person with a concealed carry permit acting like a douche. It seems that our citizens take their rights and responsibilities very seriously.

But I probably only take a gun on five percent of my rides, almost always when I'm going somewhere relatively remote. The risks and hassle are not worth it in the local state parks and recreation area where the worst thing I've experienced are irate hikers and angry dogs (almost indistinguishable, by the way).

I open carry on night rides wherever I go. The woods can get kind of creepy and there's nobody out there so it doesn't matter.

Although I've seen a cougar in the Kisatchie National Forest (nobody believes me) I've never felt threatened by wildlife. We have some small black bears but they are perfectly harmless and I've seen some feral hogs but they seemed kind of shy and ran away.

Although Louisiana is very firearm friendly, you still should be low key about it.


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## jman785 (Jul 28, 2013)




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## ozz (May 30, 2006)

Open carry is best. A bear is less likely to attack if he sees you are armed.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

ozz said:


> Open carry is best. A bear is less likely to attack if he sees you are armed.


This is SO not true!!! Everyone knows that bears' eyesight is dreadful, and they would almost certainly think that the open-carry gun was a Liquorice Allsort, which bears are extremely partial to. They would certainly fight you and kill you for it...


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

ozz said:


> Open carry is best. A bear is less likely to attack if he sees you are armed.


Or he'll just see that you're both equally armed and fight you to the death over it.










^Not my photo, but I believe that's a Canadian citizen riding the bear.


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## jman785 (Jul 28, 2013)

eh ^


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Best way to carry a gun is to not carry a gun.


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## jman785 (Jul 28, 2013)

^^ I totally agree. I think we have gotten carried away with this whole gun thing. We haven't even explored the nunchucks vast possibilities in this bear fighting scenario yet.


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## bradkay (Apr 9, 2013)

rockerc said:


> Agreed, but it begs a couple of questions:
> 
> 1) What do you do when you draw the sword, and the bear takes one look and buggers off? Tradition dictates that you HAVE to draw blood once the sword is drawn. Remind me not to ride with you in bear country...
> 
> 2) How best to carry a Samurai sword hmm?!?


Duncan McLeod never seemed to have a problem carrying his - and no one ever noticed it until he had drawn it - so it shouldn't be too hard...


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

This might be something the OP should look into.

QBP new backcountry Fat bike for hunters and fishermen, the CB4 :

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/product-tech/2013/08/09/qbp-hunt-new-outdoor-brand#.Ug3uZCd5mc1


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

David C said:


> Best way to carry a gun is to not carry a gun.


Until you need it. Like I said, there are some dangerous and desperate characters in our woods, mostly involved in illegal drugs in some way or another. A gun is very safe if you know how and when to use it. The problem is that most people can't shoot and don't spend enough time at the range getting comfortable with their weapon of choice.

No doubt amateur, poorly trained shooters are panicky and prone to over-reaction but not every gun owner fits into that category. I am an expert shot, can disassemble and assemble my Berretta M9 in the dark with one hand, and am very cool under pressure.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Ailuropoda said:


> Until you need it. Like I said, there are some dangerous and desperate characters in our woods, mostly involved in illegal drugs in some way or another. A gun is very safe if you know how and when to use it. The problem is that most people can't shoot and don't spend enough time at the range getting comfortable with their weapon of choice.
> 
> No doubt amateur, poorly trained shooters are panicky and prone to over-reaction but not every gun owner fits into that category. I am an expert shot, can disassemble and assemble my Berretta M9 in the dark with one hand, and am very cool under pressure.


I don't have a problem with guns, never did, but when some, maybe even most people with their brains and egos get involved, that's another story. Saying you're an excellent shot, who can assemble a pistol with one hand in the dark, who self proclaims they're very cool shows you have ego issues. Telling that to a bunch of strangers on the internet who don't care proves you have intelligence issues. People like you give guns a bad rep, and I feel sorry for those who make up a reality where they think they need a gun to feel safe. I feel worse for a bear that runs into someone with such limited resources but has a gun.


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

He's right though. I work at a gun range and carry while I ride... And most other times as well. The vast majority of gun carriers are what I call safe idiots.
They carry with good intention. But poor execution. Thankfully, the obscene majority of them will either never need it or become painfully aware of their inability to act under duress if they do. 99 percent of the time, those cocky wanna be throat punchers fall into the later category. 
I cannot stress this enough, if you have a gun with the intention of carrying it, train with it. Take classes, become familiar with it. There is much more than just pulling the trigger. Just like there is much more than just pushing a pedal. 
I don't feel safer with a gun. And no one should be. I feel better prepared. Simple as that. 
Do you feel safer with a fire extinguisher in your kitchen? You shouldn't, it won't prevent a fire... Anyone who carries should have the same perspective.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

If I saw someone carrying a firearm at the trailhead or anywhere around heading towards the trailhead, or during riding, I won't feel comfortable at all with this and I will simply pack up my stuff and go ride somewhere else where I can feel safe enjoying mtbing.

Note that I don't live in any dangerous animal area, so thus my reaction when I see someone packing a gun around. Might be different in an area where mountain lions and other stupid creatures are lurking you.

That being said, I enjoy shooting even more than riding, I love guns and I can spend days at a shooting range as long as I have ammo, I won't leave. I don't hunt or like shooting people, so I don't own any gun (I go with a good friend of mine) and I like it that way.

Bear spray looks like the most logical choice, unless you think you are cool for riding with a shotgun strapped to your back. And you're not.


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

Hmm... I think I can make this work..
Just have to find my tacticool black duct tape. 









;P

in all seriousness. Use a 5.11 fanny pack and keep it concealed. It's not a toy.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

DarynRod said:


> Hmm... I think I can make this work..
> Just have to find my tacticool black duct tape.
> 
> 
> ...


Is that yours ? If so, I don't wanna be your neighbor. I don't trust people with guns, even less when they are anything else but a hunting rifle. IMO military type guns shouldn't be anywhere but on a military facility. Even these little assault type .22 semi-auto are wrong.


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

Indeed it is.


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## dead_dog_canyon (Sep 8, 2010)

DarynRod said:


> I cannot stress this enough, if you have a gun with the intention of carrying it, train with it. *Take classes*, become familiar with it. There is much more than just pulling the trigger. Just like there is much more than just pushing a pedal.
> 
> I don't feel safer with a gun. And no one should be. I feel better prepared. Simple as that.
> *^This*
> ...


One thing so many gun owners fail to realize is that training is part of the cost of owning a firearm. It should factored into the initial cost.

Front Sight:
Excellent overall training - Ignore the Snake Oil marketing and pricing - First time I took the 4 Day Pistol for $200 and just bought 5) 4 Days @ $35 each to take the whole family - Look on Ebay for Certificates. A lot of class room time on Moral and Ethical use of force, what happens if you do shoot, etc. I can't believe a single person could leave here with a cocky attitude. Quite the opposite!
Front Sight

Gunsite:
Solid Training
Gunsite

Thunder Ranch:
Clint is one of the most pragmatic around.....
Thunder Ranch

Online:
Not real training but a lot of good info here - Look for the Gunsite Videos
National Shooting Sports Foundation - YouTube


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## skullcap (Nov 4, 2010)

Statler and Waldorf were always my most favoritest part of the Muppet Show.



I've never carried anything for bears and all my encounters with them have involved them running away as quickly as they can. Occasionally that has involved what looks like the rear end actually trying to overtake the front end. I guess my dad was right and they really are more afraid of me than I am of them. 

But, I do know someone who used to carry a can of bear spray. He was with me and carrying it on some of those aforementioned encounters. He was able to return it unused to the store after about 5 years and he doesn't bother to carry anything anymore either.


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

Clint's in and out of surgery these days. Still a great instructor though. 
My brother just got out of Gunsite a few weeks ago. He approved. 
We operate our own facility here in Texas on the Red River. We have a few big names coming in before the end of the year. The only or I'm interested in really is the Larry Vickers class. Great trails out there too. Might sling my bike out there to pound around when I'm not making sure window lickers are safe.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

theMeat said:


> I don't have a problem with guns, never did, but when some, maybe even most people with their brains and egos get involved, that's another story. Saying you're an excellent shot, who can assemble a pistol with one hand in the dark, who self proclaims they're very cool shows you have ego issues. Telling that to a bunch of strangers on the internet who don't care proves you have intelligence issues. People like you give guns a bad rep, and I feel sorry for those who make up a reality where they think they need a gun to feel safe. I feel worse for a bear that runs into someone with such limited resources but has a gun.


The perception that everybody who is armed is a dangerous, untrained rube is incorrect. I was a marksmanship instructor for my battalion in the Marines and I've been to a civilian course; I actually like to shoot recreationally.

A gun doesn't make you "safe," it just gives you another option to get out of an unsafe situation. In four years of riding I've never had to take the gun out of the pack. But I've never had to use my kitchen fire extinguisher either. Doesn't mean I can get rid of it.

Ego is not the issue. I'd rather not carry and I'd rather be able to ride in the remote areas of our state without the possibility of running into a still or a meth lab but that's not the reality.

My girlfriend carries when she runs. We've had several female runners abducted and raped this year, one was murdered afterwards. Is she irrational or making up a reality?

I think I've made it clear that I don't carry in remote areas for fear of four-legged wildlife.

"Intelligence issues." Ha ha.


----------



## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

DarynRod said:


> Clint's in and out of surgery these days. Still a great instructor though.
> My brother just got out of Gunsite a few weeks ago. He approved.
> We operate our own facility here in Texas on the Red River. We have a few big names coming in before the end of the year. The only or I'm interested in really is the Larry Vickers class. Great trails out there too. Might sling my bike out there to pound around when I'm not making sure window lickers are safe.


LAV is a great instructor, be sure to take a class with him.

And don't really bother arguing with people who think "military style" weapons should be banned or guns are scary. However, I think it emphasizes the need for concealment.

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Freud

Nice AR by the way, minus the BAD lever.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Trajan556 said:


> LAV is a great instructor, be sure to take a class with him.
> 
> And don't really bother arguing with people who think "military style" weapons should be banned or guns are scary. However, I think it emphasizes the need for concealment.
> 
> ...


I think quoting Freud in any context involving guns and sexuality is a sign of something you might want to take a look at in yourself!


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

Trajan556 said:


> LAV is a great instructor, be sure to take a class with him.
> 
> And don't really bother arguing with people who think "military style" weapons should be banned or guns are scary. However, I think it emphasizes the need for concealment.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I don't. ARs are more common where Im from than Cadillacs. The BAD I just got used to. I don't particularly like the execution, but I like the concept.


rockerc said:


> I think quoting Freud in any context involving guns and sexuality is a sign of something you might want to take a look at in yourself!


I don't see that at all, unless there is a Frued quote to support it. 









Any who, its a personal choice with personal reasons. 
Do so correctly on the trail and no one should know.
A 5.11 pouch like this is your best bet. Keeps the firearm in your control at all times. A bike pouch is decent, but not very accessable, and if you leave the bike outside for any reason, you leave your gun out side... on a bike... where it will do absolutely no good. You know... because guns just go off sometimes. :skep:


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

I got two guns in my shirt and a Magnum in my pants.


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

I would advise shooting the dirt, if you feel like you need to fire a warning shot.
See Rule 4.


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

Never shoot a gun in the air.


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## walangkatapat (Jun 2, 2009)

DarynRod said:


> Never shoot a gun in the air.


+1,000,000


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

walangkatapat said:


> +1,000,000


The bullets do not come down as fast as they go up. If you shoot it more or less vertically the bullet will come down at its terminal velocity which is much, much, less than muzzle velocity. Now a bullet shot horizontally will keep much of it's lethality well past a close target but not that much further.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

This is because the force exerted on the bullet by air friction counteracts the force exerted by gravity. At some speed the forces balance out and the acceleration of the bullet is zero and it will fall at a constant speed. 

On the moon, however, it would come down exactly as fast as it went up.

Plus the bullet will tumble once it loses it's spin. I bet bullets don't fall much faster than fifty or sixty MPH.


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

Ailuropoda said:


> This is because the force exerted on the bullet by air friction counteracts the force exerted by gravity. At some speed the forces balance out and the acceleration of the bullet is zero and it will fall at a constant speed.
> 
> On the moon, however, it would come down exactly as fast as it went up.
> 
> Plus the bullet will tumble once it loses it's spin. I bet bullets don't fall much faster than fifty or sixty MPH.


I thought you were a self-proclaimed gun expert.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Bro said:


> I thought you were a self-proclaimed gun expert.


It's just physics.

But I know a thing or two about guns. Why? Is it not permissable to have some knowledge about other things besides mountain biking?


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

Terminal velocity, dependent on caliber and trajectory can still be lethal.
You don't have to get wrapped up in the "I know this and that about bullets and stuff" ego crap, ballistic coefficients and trig if you just follow this simple rule.
> Don't shoot your gun into the air.


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

Ailuropoda said:


> It's just physics.
> 
> But I know a thing or two about guns. Why? Is it not permissable to have some knowledge about other things besides mountain biking?


No no no, it's not the physics that I'm concerned with. It's just that whole thing about handling your gun responsibly. Not firing when you don't know where the round is going to hit, not firing into the air, that sort of stuff.



DarynRod said:


> Terminal velocity, dependent on caliber and trajectory can still be lethal.
> You don't have to get wrapped up in the "I know this and that about bullets and stuff" ego crap, ballistic coefficients and trig if you just follow this simple rule.
> > Don't shoot your gun into the air.


Exactly.


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## yellowzx (Feb 16, 2008)

Wow, this is still going? I have run into bears on the trail before and they always run off. I just wanted to be able to defend myself when riding solo. It has nothing to do with ego or looking cool. I can open carry but I don't because don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable, it is for me to know. I was not asking if I should carry, just looking for a good way to do so on my bike. So thanks again for any helpful information and sorry for starting a debate.


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

Eh, its going to happen. People have preconceived notions about the stupidest things...

Like I said, personal preference.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Open carry varies by state. In Louisiana, you can open carry with the weapon loaded and ready to fire. In Utah, you can open carry, but the weapon has to be two actions away from firing (i.e., magazine loaded, but no bullet chambered). Like many others, I'm more inclined to go with bear spray. There's no chance I'll be able to put a bear down, while charging me, with a 9mm.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

I heard the trick for a bear was to put a bullet in each eyes, then to give him a prostate check. At least that's what the park Ranger told me.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

passion4health said:


> This guy needs protection against a BEAR, not a raccoon. We don't know what the trail is like, so if he feels like a gun could at some point safe his life, then why not carry it! I volunteered at an animal sanctuary where they had a baby bear. This cub was so freaking strong! I doubt a bear will be very impressed by a hammer or a spray. If is a mama bear with her cubs close by than she might go straight after him, and believe me, the bear will be faster than the bike! Oh yes, they are fast...
> 
> Carry your gun. You can get holsters for less than 20 bucks online. Try to shoot into the air first to see if that scares the bear away. It normally does...


Had to weigh in here. I have no experience with grizzly's but black bears are VERY impressed by spray. More so than by bullets when they are angry or scared. I have had many close encounters with black bears and I have the scars to prove it. I'd trust bear spray over a hand gun in a bear encounter.


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## Bender the offender (Aug 1, 2013)

I always carry a light weight single stack 9mm in my pack. Ruger and smith make some light weight 38's that are a good option too. But yeah I carry in my pack, not that it's the fastest, but at least it's there. Like the saying goes.. Better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. I'm not worried about bears, 4 legs good 2 legs bad


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

I was wondering if in the case you shoot that bear (and manage to survive, and kill or lethally injure said bear), that you won't be charged with poaching or other illegal killing of animal. You might as well get a hunting license for bears, and carry a good hunting rifle, when you spot a bear, dismount, aim and take your shot. Next just pin it on your strava and come back later with an ATV and tow the bear back to the trailhead. By that time, all the strava users around will be there waiting for you with a BBQ and campfire (and perhaps some moonshine).

Why is this thread still not binned ?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Should carry it jogging as well

When bears attack: 7 people mauled by bears in recent days - CNN.com


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

To answer the OP, you should NOT carry it like the person whose fanny pack I found in the desert yesterday with a loaded 357 snub nose revolver in it...


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## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

David C said:


> I was wondering if in the case you shoot that bear (and manage to survive, and kill or lethally injure said bear), that you won't be charged with poaching or other illegal killing of animal. You might as well get a hunting license for bears, and carry a good hunting rifle, when you spot a bear, dismount, aim and take your shot. Next just pin it on your strava and come back later with an ATV and tow the bear back to the trailhead. By that time, all the strava 'round will be there waiting for you with a BBQ and campfire (and perhaps some moonshine).
> 
> *Why is this thread still not binned ?*


Because adults are having a conversation here with only the occasional juvenile comment (see your past 10).


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

juan_speeder said:


> Because adults are having a conversation here with only the occasional juvenile comment (see your past 10).


As someone who has "Homeopathy is the Air Guitar of Medicine" as their signature, you demand respect for being an adult when the former belies the latter


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

rockerc said:


> To answer the OP, you should NOT carry it like the person whose fanny pack I found in the desert yesterday with a loaded 357 snub nose revolver in it...


That is Hoffas sentiments as well.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

David C said:


> If I saw someone carrying a firearm at the trailhead or anywhere around heading towards the trailhead, or during riding, I won't feel comfortable at all with this and I will simply pack up my stuff and go ride somewhere else where I can feel safe enjoying mtbing.
> 
> That being said, I enjoy shooting even more than riding, I love guns and I can spend days at a shooting range as long as I have ammo, I won't leave. I don't hunt or like shooting people, so I don't own any gun (I go with a good friend of mine) and I like it that way.


Like shooting does not make you a responsible firearm owner, and you have to read what you wrote sometime. I don't know any firearm owners who think or act like that.



David C said:


> Is that yours ? If so, I don't wanna be your neighbor. I don't trust people with guns, even less when they are anything else but a hunting rifle. IMO military type guns shouldn't be anywhere but on a military facility. Even these little assault type .22 semi-auto are wrong.


A gun society is a polite society. The most friendly and polite places I've been to, is the gun ranges, even ones that look like gangsta are saying hi to you, and everyone is well behaved



David C said:


> I was wondering if in the case you shoot that bear (and manage to survive, and kill or lethally injure said bear), that you won't be charged with poaching or other illegal killing of animal. You might as well get a hunting license for bears, and carry a good hunting rifle, when you spot a bear, dismount, aim and take your shot. Next just pin it on your strava and come back later with an ATV and tow the bear back to the trailhead. By that time, all the strava users around will be there waiting for you with a BBQ and campfire (and perhaps some moonshine).
> 
> Why is this thread still not binned ?


Is that how you think it works? Interesting. I have no intention of killing any animal on the trail, as I don't carry but if I do and one is on top of my and want to feed on me, I'd picked me and my family anytime.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

You have to understand that where I live, guns aren't the norm. People in the USA think they own this forum. Heck no, there's members from everywhere around the world and we all have our own lifestyles and experience.

To the OP, if you can open carry, and are concerned about bears, then a chest holster or similar setup that allow you to carry on yourself and to pull out while on the bike is the best. But make sure to pack an appropriate caliber and know your target. I still find the bear spray and bells suggestions more relevant and safer/less trouble to handle than carrying a firearm.

To everyone else, keep calm and ride on.


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## swampfox (Mar 16, 2007)

I was with rockerc when we found the gun. I should point out that the owner was a safe & responsible firearms user&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; up until the time that the clueless dingbat allowed the pack, gun and holster fall out of her vehicle onto the jeep road. I can say "her" with confidence because&#8230;..&#8230;..well, actually the _Massengill Moist Wipe_ in the pack was my clue. (I'm NOT making this up:thumbsup To be specific, the gun was a Charter Arms .357 mag pug, 5 shot revolver. It was loaded with .38's and she had extra rounds in the pouch. It stayed there on the side of a jeep road for at least 12 hours when we found it at 9AM yesterday&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.fresh rain and no tracks but ours.

It's just as well that this woman lost the gun. Anyone that careless with firearms and property, is more likely to shoot her tit off than prevent a purse snatching, baby snatching, snatch snatching or whatever it is that keeps her up at night. I think we deserve medals


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

If you only knew all the scatter brained things police do with their firearms, a lady misplacing hers on the side of the road would not phase you. Ever leave your wallet on the roof, or bumper? Careless yes. Unforgivable, no.


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## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

rockerc said:


> As someone who has "Homeopathy is the Air Guitar of Medicine" as their signature, you demand respect for being an adult when the former belies the latter


First, lighten up, Francis.

Second, you accept homeopathy?

Haaaa Haaa Haa ha!

Ha.

ha


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## Dian3men (Aug 19, 2013)

I have a stripper carry mine for me. Set her up with an FS rig, she's good to go.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

6BR said:


> As I always like to say,
> 
> a .22 in my pocket is better than the .45 you kept at home.


Neither work well for bears


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## Gibbsinator (Jul 24, 2013)

Don't be scared of legally carried guns, there are plenty of illegally carried guns that you should be more worried about. One of those legally carried guns may save you from an illegally carried gun one day.

Unfortunately, in my area all parks and greenways are no firearms areas. Surprisingly enough, a month ago a bear walked around some main roads, right by a school and some parks. So maybe seeing a bear isn't very unlikely.

Also, if you don't trust people with guns, maybe you should consider carrying one yourself. Everyone is entitled to look out for their own safety. To be clear, the only justifiable use of a firearm is when death or serious injury is imminent to you or others.


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## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

Just as we'll our world leaders don't have a say on this as they would tackle it the same as foreign policy....

Try and talk to the bear as it is not behaving the way we want it to, even though it doesn't want to, then it ends up being a sh*t and screwing us over anyway.


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## Bender the offender (Aug 1, 2013)

Alias530 said:


> Neither work well for bears


True, but your missing his point. Many bears have been killed with .22's including polar bears. A .22 although not ideal is capable of killing any animal.
Use what you have. I've seen people get hit with a 50 bmg and live, others get an artery knicked and bleed out in minutes. I like a .357 with hard cast for hunting black bear myself, works great. But it's the 2 legged's that area more likely danger.


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

Gibbsinator said:


> To be clear, the only justifiable use of a firearm is when death or serious injury is imminent to you or others.


Not in Texas and many other states...

Deadly force can be legally used in defense of a persons property as well as a persons life here in Texas and the laws get looser after dark.


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

DarynRod said:


> Not in Texas and many other states...
> 
> Deadly force can be legally used in defense of a persons property as well as a persons life here in Texas and the laws get looser after dark.


Doesn't make it morally justifiable. And I am OTJ. I wouldn't shoot to apprehend for burglary, even though I legally can.


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

NYS Penal Law 35.30 if anyone is interested


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

Still legally justifiable here in Texas. There is no morality clauses in our self defense laws. You threaten someone here, and get shot, they're justified. 
You try to steal a persons car at 2AM and get shot, they're justified
You rob a connivence store and a custom shoots you, they're justified. 

Whether or not someone does, is up to them. But just because its justified, doesn't mean it won't be taken to court. You have to be pretty damn sure you can, before you do.
For the most par, we preach avoidance. Watching out for red flags, creating situations that are difficult for someone to take advantage of. 
Live avoided several instances that I could have been justified in using deadly force but was able to avoid it.


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

DarynRod said:


> Still legally justifiable here in Texas. There is no morality clauses in our self defense laws. You threaten someone here, and get shot, they're justified.
> You try to steal a persons car at 2AM and get shot, they're justified
> You rob a connivence store and a custom shoots you, they're justified.
> 
> Whether or not someone does, is up to them. But just because its justified, doesn't mean it won't be taken to court. You have to be pretty damn sure you can, before you do.


Yeah, I am aware in Texas it is legally justifiable. In NY it is legally justifiable for peace officers to shoot to make an arrest or prevent escape for burglary too. And I wouldn't do it. Because I gotta sleep at night.


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## Motorider228 (Mar 30, 2013)

Gibbsinator said:


> Don't be scared of legally carried guns, there are plenty of illegally carried guns that you should be more worried about. One of those legally carried guns may save you from an illegally carried gun one day.
> .


Couldn't agree more! That's why I carry a concealed weapon.

I don't carry for animals, or property theft, I carry for the fact that I live around some questionable areas that I must regularly interact with. My life and my Wife's life are the only reasons I carry. If someone wants my t.v., my truck or my bicycle, they can have it, I have insurance. I'm not killing someone over "things".


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

juan_speeder said:


> First, lighten up, Francis.
> 
> Second, you accept homeopathy?
> 
> ...


Joking aside, and at the risk of straying off-topic for which I apologise, I absolutely think that homeopathy is effective, especially when allied with 'Western' medicine, and there are a great many physicians who will agree with that. I don't know why you choose to deny that possibility, and I feel you are doing yourself a disservice by closing your mind in this way. After all, the Chinese managed to get by for thousands of years using their version. For sure, it cannot deal with all ills, but neither can 'Western' medicine. There's a place for all...

Oh, and my name ain't Francis, altho my Mum did want to call me Julian. Glad she didn't...


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

rockerc said:


> Joking aside, and at the risk of straying off-topic for which I apologise, I absolutely think that homeopathy is effective, especially when allied with 'Western' medicine, and there are a great many physicians who will agree with that. I don't know why you choose to deny that possibility, and I feel you are doing yourself a disservice by closing your mind in this way. After all, the Chinese managed to get by for thousands of years using their version. For sure, it cannot deal with all ills, but neither can 'Western' medicine. There's a place for all...
> 
> Oh, and my name ain't Francis, altho my Mum did want to call me Julian. Glad she didn't...


There are NO active ingredients in homeopathic formulas. It is literally just water.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

rebel1916 said:


> There are NO active ingredients in homeopathic formulas. It is literally just water.


You obviously don't know ****!

Sorry, you don't know **** about homeopathy...


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

No, I do. The dilutions used in homeopathy means there could not even be one molecule in the end users dose. Supposedly the water remembers that it was once in contact with the "active ingredient". This is almost the definition of snake oil. And the peer reviewed research shows it's ineffectiveness.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

rebel1916 said:


> No, I do. The dilutions used in homeopathy means there could not even be one molecule in the end users dose. Supposedly the water remembers that it was once in contact with the "active ingredient". This is almost the definition of snake oil. And the peer reviewed research shows it's ineffectiveness.


I am talking about herbal remedies in general, not Hahnemann's remedies.


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

Herbal remedies and homeopathy are two completely discrete things. Leading me to believe that it is you who doesn't know ****. It's cool though, ignorance can be cured easily enough.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Not sure about how discrete the 2 are, but I stand corrected on Homeopathy, I did not realise it was that 'exact' and delineated a 'science'. I would agree that as Hahnemann proscribed, it is largely ineffective, but talking about herbal remedies, or more 'Eastern' medicine if you like, I absolutely believe in their efficacy. There you go, ignorance cured somewhat!


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Lol, this thread is getting weird.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Western medicine sucks.


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## Bender the offender (Aug 1, 2013)

Is this going to turn into a ganja debate? Sweet


----------



## Gibbsinator (Jul 24, 2013)

DarynRod said:


> Not in Texas and many other states...
> 
> Deadly force can be legally used in defense of a persons property as well as a persons life here in Texas and the laws get looser after dark.


Well in my state that's the law, and I do think shooting someone over property is overkill, literally. In my state you can still be held civilly liable, and you will be arrested, investigated, and charged with homicide on your record. Most of my possessions aren't worth that much time and effort.


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## DarynRod (Jul 29, 2013)

Might as well. This thread has more branches than Jeffersons family tree.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Guns? She wins \/\/


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Dirty $anchez said:


> Guns? She wins \/\/
> 
> View attachment 825486


Western medicine did that


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

rockerc said:


> Western medicine did that


And a little Spanish beef.


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## father87 (Aug 20, 2013)

What's up all, hope I'm not repeating because I didn't read through whole thread. This is only my second post but this topic is relative to me because I bike in the everglades and conceal also. I have to just use my backpack for now, but ordering this Pistol Wear PT2

and I agree, you better have dam good accuracy with lower calibers on a bear... I use .40 hollows. I hope if you know you might see a bear you know the proper way to handle a bear confrontation, the don't back down method.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Quit trying to re-rail this train wreck. TIA.


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## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

swampfox said:


> I was with rockerc when we found the gun. I should point out that the owner was a safe & responsible firearms user&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; up until the time that the clueless dingbat allowed the pack, gun and holster fall out of her vehicle onto the jeep road. I can say "her" with confidence because&#8230;..&#8230;..well, actually the _Massengill Moist Wipe_ in the pack was my clue. (I'm NOT making this up:thumbsup To be specific, the gun was a Charter Arms .357 mag pug, 5 shot revolver. It was loaded with .38's and she had extra rounds in the pouch. It stayed there on the side of a jeep road for at least 12 hours when we found it at 9AM yesterday&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.fresh rain and no tracks but ours.
> 
> It's just as well that this woman lost the gun. Anyone that careless with firearms and property, is more likely to shoot her tit off than prevent a purse snatching, baby snatching, snatch snatching or whatever it is that keeps her up at night. I think we deserve medals


I hope you notified your local police department, or else you're guilty of a felony.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Trajan556 said:


> I hope you notified your local police department, or else you're guilty of a felony.


The PD where we found it told me to go to the County Sheriff, and they told me to go to the PD where I lived. The buck was passed twice before the cops wanted to know. When the officer from my local PD came to my house to pick it up, and I told him exactly where it was found, he said that strictly speaking he shouldn't take it. I almost had to beg him to take it away!


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

rockerc said:


> Joking aside, and at the risk of straying off-topic for which I apologise, I absolutely think that homeopathy is effective, especially when allied with 'Western' medicine, and there are a great many physicians who will agree with that. I don't know why you choose to deny that possibility, and I feel you are doing yourself a disservice by closing your mind in this way. After all, the Chinese managed to get by for thousands of years using their version. For sure, it cannot deal with all ills, but neither can 'Western' medicine. There's a place for all...
> 
> Oh, and my name ain't Francis, altho my Mum did want to call me Julian. Glad she didn't...


Homeopathy is the theory that "like cures like." Homeopaths believe that if you dilute a substance in water and keep diluting it to the point where the probability of it containing even one molecule of the original substance is functionally zero nevertheless the water will retain some kind of chemical memory of the substance and can be used as a medicine.

You know, the ancient Chinese died of things that we cure routinely today, same as everybody else back then. Not busting on the Chinese in particular but suppose I tried to revive ancient Roman medicine as a viable adjunct to modern medicine? The ancient Romans were not stupid, they could see cause and effect (which is why they closed wounds with silver staples, for example) but the bulk of their medicinal knowledge and treatments were, by modern standards, not only ineffective but preposterous.

But if it's Chinese it's got to be cool. Must be all of those Kung Fu reruns.

I did part of my residency at Duke. They are into all of that snake oil (homeopathy, Reiki, Chinese medicine) but in the end it's just marketing to attract business. The heavy lifting there is done by real doctors. The charlatans just dance around the fringes.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Ancient medicine is flawed because the ancients had a very poor understanding of physiology and no understanding at all of biochemistry. Western medicine was in the same situation until relatively recently. 

Now, the medical philosophy of the ancients was not always bad. The Greeks, Romans, and the Chinese recognized the need for exercise, moderation, and hygiene.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I've run into black bears too many times to count. At least 30 times here in VA (maybe 6 or those times with cubs), 4 times around Tahoe, and once in CO. Some have stood up and hissed at me.

I have never needed a gun or wished I had one with me in these encounters.


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## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

rockerc said:


> You obviously don't know ****!
> 
> Sorry, you don't know **** about homeopathy...


No. It is LITERALLY just water. That's why "Homeopathy is the Air Guitar of Medicine" is funny, y'see. When jokes need explaining...

The whole "field" was made up, whole cloth, in the late 18th century based on just a notion. Homeopathy has NEVER beaten the placebo effect in clinical trials, and it can't, since it's not medicine.


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## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

Totally forgot about these:
HPG | Kit Bags in detail

Designed for backpackers, as backpack cumberbuns usually interfere with any type of belt mounted holster.

Unrelated: their granola bar recipe is awesome.


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## SteveinOregon (Jan 21, 2012)

"LOINS & TWEAKERS & BEARS OH MY".

Depends on how 'ready' You want to be

BEST: 'expensive' Diamond-D brand made in Alaska, the Alaska Guide model external cross draw chest rig , used by all the experienced back country Alaskans and pro Grizzly hunting guides ( BIG handgun not included lol ) 

GOOD: 'cheap' for DA six gun, worn on Your side: Uncle Mikes brand made in Oregon button snap nylon belt holster ( medium sized gun not included lol ) .... .......Auto pistol: Any locking security holster aka Banchi Ranger model, or SERPA level 1 2 or 3 holster etc.....

WARNING: Dump the bike in a crash and end up on your gun side, the gun slams into Your hip bone and You get what football players call a 'hip pointer' !

DEADLY FOREST GHOST : 90+ percent chance You wont ever see the Mountain Lion that 1 in a million attacks You and knocks You off Your rig , but they do jump from the up hill side of the trail so perhaps You will see a brown blur before You feel Your neck crushing & crunching under it's jaws lol 

NOT SO GOOD: Trying to keep Your pacifist - liberal - enlightened - ( irrationally scared of guns ) 'rolling Ghandi' buddies and that super hot liberal collage chick ( loose babe lol ) who You rude with from freaking out , then stash it into your pack and never let them know You have it until You get back to the shuttle only to find two Swastika neck tattooed tweaker freaks ransacking Her Subaru Forester after killing her Bichon Frise dog ( the dog You call a *****en Frisbee lol ) then whip out the Dirty Harry cause there is no cell service and show the Meth Zombies from Hell who is the trail boss lol.

PS i am a *Pacifist , mess with MY hippy chick and i will * 'pass my fist' thru your face l ha ha ha .

PEACE


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

SteveinOregon said:


> "LOINS & TWEAKERS & BEARS OH MY".
> 
> Depends on how 'ready' You want to be
> 
> ...


Huh?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

SteveinOregon said:


> "LOINS & TWEAKERS & BEARS OH MY".
> 
> Depends on how 'ready' You want to be
> 
> ...


That has to be the best post of this whole thread so far. Good job !


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## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

Ailuropoda said:


> The bullets do not come down as fast as they go up. If you shoot it more or less vertically the bullet will come down at its terminal velocity which is much, much, less than muzzle velocity. Now a bullet shot horizontally will keep much of it's lethality well past a close target but not that much further.


yes as long as you are hit with a bullet as its moving at 156mph vertically down on your head you'll be totally safe. :skep:

horizontal or vertical you are pretty much brown bread if hit in the right spot... same goes for the bear for that fact.


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## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

FYI, terminal velocity for a 145 grain bullet is no where near 156mph. Forgot just exactly what it is, but is is far from lethal.


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## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

musikron said:


> FYI, terminal velocity for a 145 grain bullet is no where near 156mph. Forgot just exactly what it is, but is is far from lethal.


youre wrong there pal, people have been killed by falling bullets fired directly up. im not going into a ballistics argument over it but all you need to do is watch an episode of mythbusters who will describe it in lehmans terms.

Annotated Mythbusters: Episode 50: Bullets Fired Up, Vodka Myths III

on average it would fall 100mph. Feel free to test yourself and stand in front of a jagged, tumbling metal object traveling at 100mph and see what the outcome is but i would't recommend it.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Brockwan said:


> youre wrong there pal, people have been killed by falling bullets fired directly up. im not going into a ballistics argument over it but all you need to do is watch an episode of mythbusters who will describe it in lehmans terms.


Interesting guy that Burt Lehman... had a lot to say...


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## Tystevens (Nov 2, 2011)

rockerc said:


> Interesting guy that Burt Lehman... had a lot to say...


Was this Mr. Lehman prone to using simplistic or non-esoteric words or phrases to describe things?


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Tystevens said:


> Was this Mr. Lehman prone to using simplistic or non-esoteric words or phrases to describe things?


Very much yes... he is possibly one of the most oft-quoted people out there.


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## swampfox (Mar 16, 2007)

Trajan556 said:


> I hope you notified your local police department, or else you're guilty of a felony.


Trajan- I ride in S. Arizona, and normally don't take the time to report every piddling dead body, severed head, discarded firearm, illegal crosser, drug cache, retiree from the motor home park stumbling through the desert suffering from heat stroke etc.:yawn: It's tedious, and after all, who has that much time? However rockerc, proper Englishman, is naturally OCD about these things and insists on a full inventory and accounting of any and all unusual activities. So yes, the gun was turned in.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Brockwan said:


> youre wrong there pal, people have been killed by falling bullets fired directly up. im not going into a ballistics argument over it but all you need to do is watch an episode of mythbusters who will describe it in lehmans terms.
> 
> Annotated Mythbusters: Episode 50: Bullets Fired Up, Vodka Myths III
> 
> on average it would fall 100mph. Feel free to test yourself and stand in front of a jagged, tumbling metal object traveling at 100mph and see what the outcome is but i would't recommend it.


100 mph is the speed of a fast baseball pitch. Would a 9mm bullet thrown at you at that speed sting? Sure. But it wouldn't have enough force to do any damage unless it hit your eye. A typical handgun bullet leaves the muzzle in the high subsonic/low supersonic range of about 700 mph.

Kinetic energy is the product of the mass of an object and the square of its velocity, velocity being the most important factor in a projectiles lethality.

Why would the bullet be jagged? It was fired into the air, right?


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## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

swampfox said:


> Trajan- I ride in S. Arizona, and normally don't take the time to report every piddling dead body, severed head, discarded firearm, illegal crosser, drug cache, retiree from the motor home park stumbling through the desert suffering from heat stroke etc.:yawn: It's tedious, and after all, who has that much time? However rockerc, proper Englishman, is naturally OCD about these things and insists on a full inventory and accounting of any and all unusual activities. So yes, the gun was turned in.


Well where you are, it would be irresponsible not to be armed. The Government even tells you you're on your own out there.

Didn't know Rockerc was from the UK. That explains it.


Ailuropoda said:


> 100 mph is the speed of a fast baseball pitch. Would a 9mm bullet thrown at you at that speed sting? Sure. But it wouldn't have enough force to do any damage unless it hit your eye. A typical handgun bullet leaves the muzzle in the high subsonic/low supersonic range of about 700 mph.
> 
> Kinetic energy is the product of the mass of an object and the square of its velocity, velocity being the most important factor in a projectiles lethality.
> 
> Why would the bullet be jagged? It was fired into the air, right?


We had a girl here a year or two ago, Almish, who was killed by some idiot firing a muzzleloader into the air. It hit and killer her.
Amish man accidentally killed girl in horse-drawn-buggy with stray gunshot, will serve 30 days in jail - Crimesider - CBS News

Don't shoot into the sky.


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## joshboston (Sep 17, 2011)

A girl I went to college with crashed into a black bear while riding in a triathlon. The bear just ran away. Even made the news: Cyclist Hits Bear During Triathlon - CBS News


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## assaultthesalt (Aug 17, 2013)

Did not read all 8 pages but here in the humid state of Texas, I carry a Diamonback DB9 inside the waistband of my mountain bike shorts while riding.It's very light and I forget I am carrying once I get to riding.I feel that maybe a rabid coyote or vagrant or group of thugs would be a slight chance of encounter...but I'm prepared if lethal force should be warranted.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Ailuropoda said:


> 100 mph is the speed of a fast baseball pitch. Would a 9mm bullet thrown at you at that speed sting? Sure. But it wouldn't have enough force to do any damage unless it hit your eye. A typical handgun bullet leaves the muzzle in the high subsonic/low supersonic range of about 700 mph.
> 
> Kinetic energy is the product of the mass of an object and the square of its velocity, velocity being the most important factor in a projectiles lethality.
> 
> Why would the bullet be jagged? It was fired into the air, right?


It's been proven anything about .380 and bigger has the ability to penetrate the skull after being fired straight up, although .32 wasn't very reliable at it. So .22, .25 and .32 won't do it, although penetrating the spine could happen with some, but extremely unlikely. Read about this test many moons ago.

Fast baseball pitches have killed people, not to mention they'll be spreading their impact force over a far greater area, and even though the baseball seems hard, a bullet is much harder and will penetrate easier.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

joshboston said:


> A girl I went to college with crashed into a black bear while riding in a triathlon. The bear just ran away. Even made the news: Cyclist Hits Bear During Triathlon - CBS News


This kind of stuff happens all the time up here in Alaska. Bears want nothing to do with you, and if you're moving at a good clip they will usually run away. Moose won't always, and those are the real danger. You'll really piss one off by shooting it, and then it will stomp the living **** out of you.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

I stuff it in my lycra. Scare the bears and impress the ladies. Well, I hope not the other way around.


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## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

^ I stuff my gun into my Lycra shorts too! Gotta dress it left, otherwise everything just feels wrong.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Bro said:


> Gotta dress it left


And key part is - in front.


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## Bowman1 (Aug 1, 2013)

dead_dog_canyon said:


> One thing so many gun owners fail to realize is that training is part of the cost of owning a firearm. It should factored into the initial cost.
> 
> Front Sight:
> Excellent overall training - Ignore the Snake Oil marketing and pricing - First time I took the 4 Day Pistol for $200 and just bought 5) 4 Days @ $35 each to take the whole family - Look on Ebay for Certificates. A lot of class room time on Moral and Ethical use of force, what happens if you do shoot, etc. I can't believe a single person could leave here with a cocky attitude. Quite the opposite!
> Front Sight


Very well said. Like any tool, a firearm takes time and practice to master its use. Without training, you only have a false sense of security.

I took the training at FrontSight a few years ago, and found it to be excellent. Highly recommended.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Ailuropoda said:


> 100 mph is the speed of a fast baseball pitch. Would a 9mm bullet thrown at you at that speed sting? Sure. But it wouldn't have enough force to do any damage unless it hit your eye. A typical handgun bullet leaves the muzzle in the high subsonic/low supersonic range of about 700 mph.
> 
> Kinetic energy is the product of the mass of an object and the square of its velocity, velocity being the most important factor in a projectiles lethality.
> 
> Why would the bullet be jagged? It was fired into the air, right?


mass in grams times velocity in meters/second squared divided by 1000 (to get kilos) divided by 2 = kinetic energy in joules (wattseconds)

lets say you have 9,1 x 850 / 1000 / 2 = 3287J = about what you need (minimum imo) out the muzzle on a real hunting rifle to humanely take big game down such as grizzly bears at 1200yards 

a pellet gun has about 10J
a 22lr about 150J
a 9mm about 500J
500S&W about 3500J
a 50cal machine gun about 20000J
the common nuke about 40PetaJ or 40 000 000 000 000 000J


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## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

baseball has a much larger pressure area than a tumbling bullet ergo impact is distributed over a wider area. Bullet shot into the air cannot be compared to a fast ball (of which you can be killed also).


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

car bone said:


> mass in grams times velocity in meters/second squared divided by 1000 (to get kilos) divided by 2 = kinetic energy in joules (wattseconds)
> 
> lets say you have 9,1 x 850 / 1000 / 2 = 3287J = about what you need (minimum imo) out the muzzle on a real hunting rifle to humanely take big game down such as grizzly bears at 1200yards
> 
> ...


So I guess to be safe, this thread should be titled "How to carry a tactical nuke when riding" to be sure you can deal with any 4 legged threat out there with a good margin for error?


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

rockerc said:


> good margin for error?


Although I have no actual proof of it I believe it would be even more effective than bear spray, also when in a panic situation and stressed the aim part is not so critical. I would choose it over bear spray all day long for sheer bear repellant factor.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

car bone said:


> *B*ear *R*epellant *F*actor.


So... what is all-important here is the relative BRFs of whatever you can fit in your shorts. I do have a tactical nuke in my shorts, so it's all good!


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## jman785 (Jul 28, 2013)




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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

SteveinOregon said:


> "LOINS & TWEAKERS & BEARS OH MY".
> 
> Depends on how 'ready' You want to be
> 
> BEST: 'expensive' Diamond-D brand made in Alaska, the Alaska Guide model external cross draw chest rig , used by all the experienced back country Alaskans and pro Grizzly hunting guides ( BIG handgun not included lol )


There was a girl up here from Dirt Rag taking pictures of us in Kincaid Park on some of the features. She was wearing this with something that appeared to be at least .44mag (the minimum caliber you can take seriously against our wildlife). It was prime moose season. Still, overkill given how many people are in that area and how wildlife doesn't really want anything to do with you. Moose may charge though so perhaps being off-bike with camera setups she wouldn't be able to get away fast enough from one, but it also seems it would be fairly avoidable if you just don't get that close in the first place.


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## swing22hard (Jul 30, 2013)

David C said:


> Is that yours ? If so, I don't wanna be your neighbor. I don't trust people with guns, even less when they are anything else but a hunting rifle. IMO military type guns shouldn't be anywhere but on a military facility. Even these little assault type .22 semi-auto are wrong.


I hope you're my neighbor because I am putting a sign up in my front yard that this household is armed but my neighbor is not, haha


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

swing22hard said:


> I hope you're my neighbor because I am putting a sign up in my front yard that this household is armed but my neighbor is not, haha


Dredging this "masterpiece" up? Desperate times eh?


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## swing22hard (Jul 30, 2013)

Liberalism is a disease & I was bored.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

swing22hard said:


> Liberalism is a disease & I was bored.


Trolling is a disease but it has a cure.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

swing22hard said:


> Liberalism is a disease & I was bored.


Arrrrgggh..... go fish.


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

<<IMO military type guns shouldn't be anywhere but on a military facility>>

LOTS of less scary looking guns have real and recent use in military service. The Remington model 700bdl for example, is a 'standard' bolt action hunting rifle with wooden stock. It's a popular deer hunting rifle, and has been used as a military sniper rifle fairly recently.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

rockerc said:


> You obviously don't know ****!
> 
> Sorry, you don't know **** about homeopathy...


Homeopathy is a quack science proven over, and over, and over again to be no more effective than placebo and some psychotherapy.

That said, placebo and psychotherapy does work.


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

What are we arguing about here? Guns or Homeopathy?


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

sodak said:


> What are we arguing about here? Guns or Homeopathy?


Does it really matter?


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Axe said:


> Does it really matter?


Nope.. just trying to figure out what my next comment was.. Tis all.


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