# Say No to E Biking



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

When I was a kid the were called mopeds, small gas motor and 1:1 gearing, anyone the age of fifteen could ride. They were so (not) powerful that a decent sized adult could hold one in place at full throttle. We used to make my friend's do wheelies and broadies in gravel.

Ah, the god ole days.

So how doesadding electric assist to a bicycle make it any less motorized?

It just seems like the idea of self propelled and accessibility are getting blurred.

Personally, I'd rather see a trail non mechanized (pedestrian) than allow ebikes to foul the water.


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## matuchi (Jun 9, 2008)

If you don't like them - don't buy one.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> When I was a kid the were called mopeds, small gas motor and 1:1 gearing, anyone the age of fifteen could ride. They were so (not) powerful that a decent sized adult could hold one in place at full throttle. We used to make my friend's do wheelies and broadies in gravel.
> 
> Ah, the god ole days.
> 
> ...


There are two types of eBikes, ones that you can just hit the juice and it goes, and those that are pedal assist only. It is very likely you have seen someone riding a pedal assist eBike and you didn't even know it was an eBike.

A pedal assist eBike is not going to allow you to climb at 25mph, and it is not going to allow you to descend any faster than you would coasting. All it will do is assist a rider to make it up a climb, or go faster on the flats. They are so quiet you will probably never hear one, and you can't tear up a trail any easier than a strong rider can without assist.

So why would it matter whether someone is on a pedal assist eBike?


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## BikeBro (Nov 13, 2012)

So why would it matter whether someone is on a pedal assist eBike?[/QUOTE]

Because Strava rankings, thats why!


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I see no issue with pedal assist. The problem is all the morons that are going to mod them and those will tear the he11 out of trails.

Problem isn't the bikes, it the a$$hats that will think it's OK to have an electric powered dirtbike that looks like a mountain bike out on our trails.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## CactusJackSlade (Apr 11, 2006)

tigris99 said:


> I see no issue with pedal assist. The problem is all the morons that are going to mod them and those will tear the he11 out of trails.
> 
> Problem isn't the bikes, it the a$$hats that will think it's OK to have an electric powered dirtbike that looks like a mountain bike out on our trails.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


I'm not sure mods are going to be that easy... more power = bigger motor or at a minimum more battery power (higher voltage) = heavier duty speed controllers = bigger wiring to handle the load, all = more weight and on and on.

Sure you are going to get a few tinkerers.... but I doubt there will be a ton of people mod-ing their bikes.

More likey if htey want a hot rod they will just build one up....


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

You'd be surprised, they'll be some that do the "we'll buy one and mod it cause it will still look legal so we can ride the trails"

Granted that's a stupid amount of money to waste, but give it time, it'll be all over YouTube

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

CactusJackSlade said:


> I'm not sure mods are going to be that easy... more power = bigger motor or at a minimum more battery power (higher voltage) = heavier duty speed controllers = bigger wiring to handle the load, all = more weight and on and on.
> 
> Sure you are going to get a few tinkerers.... but I doubt there will be a ton of people mod-ing their bikes.
> 
> More likey if htey want a hot rod they will just build one up....


I had a fat dude on an e-fat "bike" blow by me as I was doing 10min intervals on my road bike in Fort Collins, CO. IIRC, it was a slight uphill grade at the time.

For reference, I am an Pro XC racer and CAT1 road racer.

I'd argue there is a cause for concern.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> There are two types of eBikes, ones that you can just hit the juice and it goes, and those that are pedal assist only. It is very likely you have seen someone riding a pedal assist eBike and you didn't even know it was an eBike.
> 
> A pedal assist eBike is not going to allow you to climb at 25mph, and it is not going to allow you to descend any faster than you would coasting. All it will do is assist a rider to make it up a climb, or go faster on the flats. They are so quiet you will probably never hear one, and you can't tear up a trail any easier than a strong rider can without assist.
> 
> So why would it matter whether someone is on a pedal assist eBike?


A person that pedals AND jams on the throttle, whether they are going uphill or downhill, is going to have to brake more often (going faster both uphill and down; yes, people brake when going uphill fast) and harder.

Why is braking "harder" a bad thing? Generally speaking, it tears up the trail. And, unless the performance of hydraulic brakes has changed recently, unbeknownst to me, brake fade becomes an issue with less time between braking intervals AND more intense braking. So, then you have a legitimate safety concern.

Now, maybe you just don't care about the safety of yourself, or others on the trail. So be it. I do, though, and if I see you riding your e-bike on trails that forbid it, I'll take a picture and do what I can to see you ticketed.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I just thought the title of the thread looked good on the main page 

I just think the whole thing is stupid, there is no justification for powered vehicle on non motorized trails, just as there is no justification for vehicles on pedestrian trails. Rules is rules.

Wanting something to be true does not make it so.

So I say: Suck it up princess(s), either earn your turns or get a more comfortable couch.


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## Crankyone (Dec 8, 2014)

maybe shuttle vehicles for down hill (chair lifts and whatever) should be limited to 250watts per rider.


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## CactusJackSlade (Apr 11, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> I had a fat dude on an e-fat "bike" blow by me as I was doing 10min intervals on my road bike in Fort Collins, CO. IIRC, it was a slight uphill grade at the time.
> 
> For reference, I am an Pro XC racer and CAT1 road racer.
> 
> I'd argue there is a cause for concern.


Well, a slight grade is what eBike do best at from what I've seen - does not surprise me. What happened when you hit the technical part of the trail or the downhills?

So.... what is your concern exactly? Was he tearing up the trails..... or being unsafe? Please explain. (not bashing you, I am interested in your concern)


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

There's really no way to effectively regulate or enforce what type (how much power, throttle vs. pedal assist, etc) of E-bike someone is using so the only responsible option IMO, is an outright ban on them when it comes to non-motorized trails.

I'm really disappointed that MTBR saw fit to create this forum. I think it lends a legitimacy to E-bikes as an alternative to pedal-powered MTB's that isn't justifiable.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

SteveF said:


> There's really no way to effectively regulate or enforce what type (how much power, throttle vs. pedal assist, etc) of E-bike someone is using so the only responsible option IMO, is an outright ban on them when it comes to non-motorized trails.
> 
> I'm really disappointed that MTBR saw fit to create this forum. I think it lends a legitimacy to E-bikes as an alternative to pedal-powered MTB's that isn't justifiable.


Yup, I feel the same way, human powered is human powered, once you add a motor it's no longer human powered.

I'm sure there were enough e-bike discussions scattered across the site to support this thread, but that doesn't mean they should also add threads for motor bikes, dating, and cooking.

Maybe MTBR admin thought it was easier to have a seperate thread so there's a place to move e-bike discussions... so they don't clutter up the human powered threads.

Gotta love the thread title


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

e-MTBs are not allowed on any of my local mountain trails. They are strictly human powered. As long as folks who buy e-MTBs here take them to the moto/ATV trails I don't see a problem.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

For your areas, rules ARE rules. However, CA defines a 750w or less, PAS (pedal assist), 20 mph max e-bike as a BIKE. It can go where bikes go. Right or wrong, it's the law.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

fos'l said:


> For your areas, rules ARE rules. However, CA defines a 750w or less, PAS (pedal assist), 20 mph max e-bike as a BIKE. It can go where bikes go. Right or wrong, it's the law.


And you don't think people will cheat that law with more powerful bikes?


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> When I was a kid the were called mopeds, small gas motor and 1:1 gearing, anyone the age of fifteen could ride. They were so (not) powerful that a decent sized adult could hold one in place at full throttle. We used to make my friend's do wheelies and broadies in gravel.
> 
> Ah, the god ole days.
> 
> So how does adding electric assist to a bicycle make it any less motorized?


It doesn't. But proponents of riding e-bikes on existing mountain bike trails will continue to attempt to obfuscate that simple fact.

One of their favorite tactics is to point out that on some models the motor is activated by pedaling vs. a hand grip. This means absolutely nothing. The motor in my car is also activated by a pedal.

I think e-bikes are really cool and could really end up being the ultimate green way to commute in big cities with some infrastructure changes. And fun on trails where it is decided they will be allowed. But they are motorized, and in my opinion should not be given automatic access to all trails where mountain biking is permitted.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

CactusJackSlade said:


> Well, a slight grade is what eBike do best at from what I've seen - does not surprise me. What happened when you hit the technical part of the trail or the downhills?
> 
> So.... what is your concern exactly? Was he tearing up the trails..... or being unsafe? Please explain. (not bashing you, I am interested in your concern)


My "concern" stems from the fact that the guy probably had 1000w+ of power coming out of his bike at that point in time. And had just come off a road that dead ends into a parking lot for local MTB/hiking/equestrian trails.

If I'm doing 20mph on a 4% grade, and he's doing 25mph, I weigh 142lbs, he weighs 260, I'm on a 15.8lb road bike with 50mm carbon wheels, and he's on a fat "bike" that almost certainly weighed north of 40lbs. I'm guessing the Crr differences in tires alone are worth most of 100w.

I've used several online calculators, and using "MTB", not fat bike, they calculate the power necessary to propel that person (at that weight, on that 40lb bike, at that speed and grade) at ~1200w.

So, unless this 260lb person, sitting bolt upright, has a threshold that would make a doped up Lance Armstrong jealous, I'm guessing he's over the legal limit in every state that actually allows e-bikes.

Or, maybe both of my power meters (I was testing my Stages vs. my SRM that day) were messed up.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Anyone with a e-bike would use the throttle as much as possible. We all are speed junkies right?
And lets be serious all of us mod our bicycles to go faster so why wouldn't we mod a e-bike. I would. Can you imagine a totally quiet roost blowing 3000w bike.
I think people are afraid to stand out against them because of the commuter possibility of them being less damaging to the environment. If they actually become popular then they will have to get insurance and pay some kind of road tax. If you own a hybrid car you do.
I think there is a place for them on true multi-use trails along with motorcycles. I do not think they belong with non motorized bicycles, pedestrians, and equestrians.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

rlee said:


> Anyone with a e-bike would use the throttle as much as possible. We all are speed junkies right?
> And lets be serious all of us mod our bicycles to go faster so why wouldn't we mod a e-bike. I would. Can you imagine a totally quiet roost blowing 3000w bike.
> I think people are afraid to stand out against them because of the commuter possibility of them being less damaging to the environment. If they actually become popular then they will have to get insurance and pay some kind of road tax. If you own a hybrid car you do.
> I think there is a place for them on true multi-use trails along with motorcycles. I do not think they belong with non motorized bicycles, pedestrians, and equestrians.


100%


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

3000 watts and 75 lbs are currently available, don't pretend they are not motorcycles.

......


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## ThornPatch (Jan 21, 2004)

So the other night I'm having dinner with the family and we start talking about making plans for a trip to Tahoe this summer with the in-laws. Brother-in-law asks "what's there to do in Tahoe in the summer?" I begin to tell him about all the wonderful outdoor activities like hiking, fishing, mountain biking, etc. He then proceeds to tell me that he's been thinking of getting an e-bike, and asks if I'll take him riding in Tahoe.

I can feel my blood to begin to boil, but before I can respond my wife flashes me the "not here, not now" look because it's Sunday dinner with the family. Just then my father-in-law walks in and interrupts how upset he is that Donald Trump isn't being treated fairly by the media. . .blah blah blah. I begin to go tone-deaf when my brother-in-law stands up, literally salutes and shouts "GIVE ME TRUMP, OR GIVE ME DEATH!"

I realized 3 things that evening: I hate Sunday dinner with the in-laws; Vacation this summer is going to suck; and it's pointless to debate with Trump-loving e-bike retards.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> 3000 watts and 75 lbs are currently available, don't pretend they are not motorcycles.
> 
> ......


Hey, I can pretend anything that I want to. You just try to stop me!


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

rlee said:


> Anyone with a e-bike would use the throttle as much as possible. We all are speed junkies right?
> And lets be serious all of us mod our bicycles to go faster so why wouldn't we mod a e-bike. I would. Can you imagine a totally quiet roost blowing 3000w bike.


Yep. I don't have any plans whatsoever to get an e-bike. But if I do go down that road, it's going to be bad mutha!

https://www.electricbike.com/modified-hub-motor/


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

JACKL said:


> Yep. I don't have any plans whatsoever to get an e-bike. But if I do go down that road, it's going to be bad mutha!
> 
> https://www.electricbike.com/modified-hub-motor/


My e~bike will be Trump certified


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## spinningmagnets (Jun 17, 2014)

Hello, I am Ron. I am one of the two main writers on electricbike.com

My main interest in ebikes is as a street commuter, so I am cheating...on my car. I understand that there is some passionate disapproval of ebikes by many members of this forum, and I won't try to change anyone's mind. Your opinions are valid in my view, whether I agree with them or not.

I will gladly answer any questions that I can, concerning the technical aspects of ebikes. I am not familiar with off-road rules and laws. The new law in California allows street ebikes to legally ride up to 28-MPH if you are using a PAS system, where the motor adds power because the pedals are moving. The amount of assist is adjustable. If using only a hand-throttle, the speed is limited to 20-MPH. 

Speeds above that would require the rider to upgrade the vehicle to moped/pedelec-S status (lights, turn signals, etc), and would also require a license plate, registration, operator license, and proof of insurance.

I am young at heart, but my knees are close to 60.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Ron,
I think the disapproval comes from perceived trail access issues.
I don't think anyone cares about the use of e-bikes as commuters.
I do question what will happen when they are popular. I live in community with a large retirement population and we do have some problems with the seniors and their electric scooters.
Do the police ever enforce e-bike laws?
I work in the automotive industry and we are going to see regulation and taxation changes with plug in cars. This will probably happen with e-bikes. The problem is with off road use the changes will be trail closures. We have enough troubles getting along with hikers and equestrians.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

spinningmagnets said:


> I am not familiar with off-road rules and laws.


Not to be rude, but then why are you here on a mountain bike forum?


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## spinningmagnets (Jun 17, 2014)

If someone disapproves of ebikes on off-road trails, they certainly don't need to defend that position to me. It is quite reasonable to hold that view. That being said, there are some of the forum members here who have questions about off-road ebikes and the trends that are now being seen in that industry. 

I had the pleasure of test-riding a variety of off-road ebikes at the Interbike conventions in 2014 and 2015, and in my capacity as an ebike journalist, I felt I might be able to answer "some" of the questions that might arise.

As fate would have it, my first exposure to reading mtbr was because downhill bicycles are quite popular for converting a bicycle into an ebike with a kit for street use. This forum is the best source of accurate information on DH bicycles. That drew me in as a reader, but my recent increase in posting is due to the creation of an ebike section in this forum. 

I certainly don't want to intrude, and I guarantee that I am not in the business of trying to "convert" anyone to my point of view. I only wish to provide accurate information concerning any questions that I might have experience with. If no questions about off-road ebikes get posted, my presence here will be very limited.

Concerning off-road rules and laws, I have found that if I ride with courtesy and respect to the regular riders around me, I have never had any issues with them. Whether street or off-road, my goal has been to blend-in, rather than to impress. Rules vary from one place to another, and I have so far never needed to learn the details.

My off-road escapades run along the lines of a "Rails to Trails" style, instead of a single-track, but I certainly understand the appeal.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

spinningmagnets said:


> The new law in California allows street ebikes to legally ride up to 28-MPH if you are using a PAS system, where the motor adds power because the pedals are moving. The amount of assist is adjustable. If using only a hand-throttle, the speed is limited to 20-MPH.


Wow. More brain dead legislation from the land of fruits and nuts.

So if I ride my unassisted road bike 30 MPH it is fine, but if I coast my throttle bike down a hill over 20 MPH or my PAS over 28 MPH I get a ticket?

That is just sweet.

This is just like when bicycles first became viable in the late 1800's. Horsemen and pedestrians screamed that it was the end of the world, and all kinds of silly rules and extremely low speed limits were enacted. The exact same thing happened when cars became viable in the early 1900's.

In time, this will all fall away as people realize eBikes are no big deal.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

rlee said:


> I think the disapproval comes from perceived trail access issues.


The hate goes MUCH deeper than that. The OP would rather we lose ALL our trail access than have to share it with ebikes. I DO NOT AGREE.



Nurse Ben said:


> Personally, I'd rather see a trail non mechanized (pedestrian) than allow ebikes to foul the water.


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## shredchic (Jun 18, 2007)

*Say No to E Crack Biking*



fos'l said:


> For your areas, rules ARE rules. However, CA defines a 750w or less, PAS (pedal assist), 20 mph max e-bike as a BIKE. It can go where bikes go. Right or wrong, it's the law.


The CA law covers roads and paved bike paths, and is mainly for the purpose of exempting them from licensing and registration. The law expressly mentions ebike use on trails as being left up to the land manager. Ebike fans seem to gloss over that part in their reading of the law.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

I think the hatred displayed about e-bikes is ridiculous. It's like someone hating hybrid cars and then going on a prius forum to flex their muscle. Meanwhile someone else riding a primus has no direct affect on your driving experience except for your absolute unwarranted disgust.

No I don't like Prius'.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

GRPABT1 said:


> I think the hatred displayed about e-bikes is ridiculous. It's like someone hating hybrid cars and then going on a prius forum to flex their muscle. Meanwhile someone else riding a primus has no direct affect on your driving experience except for your absolute unwarranted disgust.
> 
> No I don't like Prius'.


Terrible analogy. A Prius and a gas car operate the same way on the road so it doesn't cause a problem. A human powered mountain bike and an e-MTB do not operate the same way. Adding a motor to a human powered activity does cause a significant change. If it didn't we wouldn't ban motorcycles from MTB trails in most cases.

An e-MTB is a motorcycle. It's just electric powered.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

On of the local trails I ride recently had 2 motorcycles go through. They only went through once. The trail which has steep climbs has some impassible sections as a result.
Now I know that pedal assist and even todays crop of commercial e-bike are not the same. But a quick google search leads you to electric motorcycles that have pedals added for a advertised route around the law. Being that there is little funds available to police trails I think the only way to go is have motorized and non motorized trails.
I spend a lot of hours each year maintaining the local trails in my area and they cannot handle motorized traffic. If your trails can then open them up.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

rlee said:


> Now I know that pedal assist and even todays crop of commercial e-bike are not the same. But a quick google search leads you to electric motorcycles that have pedals added for a advertised route around the law.


A number of years ago I reviewed an e-bike [commuter style] for a company. One of the first things they told me was that legally the e-assist had to top out at 30kph, but they explained how easy it was to override that setting at home.

It doesn't matter if there is one type of e-MTB that would be okay [which I would dispute], but as soon as you let motors on the trail you will be the dirt motor yahoos on your MTB trails tearing them up and as you point out trying to police which kind of e-MTB is legal and which kind is not is impossible in practice.

The only way it works is to keep all motors off human powered trails.


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## matuchi (Jun 9, 2008)

I see no harm in allowing them on Fire Roads - as long as they adhere to the speed limits and other sociable practices.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

You are so wrong its funny a E bike is not a motorcycle there is a lot of confusion on the Mt bike side , I travel around the mid west and south riding all the top rated trails on my E bike. My experience with other riders I meet out on the trail as been very encouraging From Santos to Mich , in the 2 yrs I have had my E bike I have had maybe 4 ppl complain about my E bike the same number of hikers that complain because MT bikers are just on the trail with them .Until I joined this form I have never heard such anger over E bikes .


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> You are so wrong its funny a E bike is not a motorcycle


it is



> Legal definition of motorcycle
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> The legal definition of a motorcycle for the purposes of registration, taxation and rider licensing in most countries is a powered two-wheel motor vehicle.


Don't confuse concern about access issues among mtb enthusiasts for "hate" towards e-bikes, keep them in legally accepted areas (e.g. roads) and we'll all be happy.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> You are so wrong its funny a E bike is not a motorcycle there is a lot of confusion on the Mt bike side , I travel around the mid west and south riding all the top rated trails on my E bike. My experience with other riders I meet out on the trail as been very encouraging From Santos to Mich , in the 2 yrs I have had my E bike I have had maybe 4 ppl complain about my E bike the same number of hikers that complain because MT bikers are just on the trail with them .Until I joined this form I have never heard such anger over E bikes .


Confusion seems to be your domain.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

vikb said:


> The only way it works is to keep all motors off human powered trails.


Yeah, we all know that's not really going to work either, as said, no real policing. And who really wants policing on the trails anyway? not me... even though I despise the idea of being passed by an e-mtb. (Some dude with one hand on the throttle and the other on a cheeseburger.)

There are several poster (of the few here) that seem pretty obstinate about riding wherever they want, and no one is going to tell them different. I've certainly poached my fare share of trails. Hell, a good chunk of the trails around here are not really sanctioned. Yes, I'm a big hypocrite.

Now that all the majors are starting to producing e-mtbs, more and more people will start buying those instead of a regular bike. They are marketed as mtbs. Plenty of people will see it as a shortcut to getting fit, and some as a way of getting a "motorcycle" to rip on a bike trail. As mentioned in another thread there is a SeaOtter e-mtb race now... so guess where the bike industry wants to see this go???

The real question is - Is this the beginning of the end of bike trails as we know it? Or will they just be a new user that is unobtrusive? Certainly going to be a HUGE monkey wrench (if not the axe) in the push for wilderness access for bikes. Since we are all being lumped together as mountain bikes, it will just be easier to say no 2 wheeled vehicles. They already have higher powered "bikes" that circumvent the supposed limitations as it is, so.....


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

vikb said:


> Terrible analogy. A Prius and a gas car operate the same way on the road so it doesn't cause a problem. A human powered mountain bike and an e-MTB do not operate the same way. Adding a motor to a human powered activity does cause a significant change. If it didn't we wouldn't ban motorcycles from MTB trails in most cases.
> 
> An e-MTB is a motorcycle. It's just electric powered.


You missed the point entirely. A prius hasn't bothered your daily commute any more than e-bikes have bothered your mtb ride (other than your own preconceived rage). Everyone talks about motorbikes and tearing up the trails when lamblasting e-bikes and yet nobody seems to have an actual account of them doing so. It's always just "they cruised on past me on the climb like I was slower than I think I am". Lose your own ego for a moment and base your judgement on evidence and there is nothing wrong with e-bikes. You can't blame an e-bikes any more than you can blame a road bike for some wanker riding it in the middle of the driving lane.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

spinningmagnets said:


> If someone disapproves of ebikes on off-road trails, they certainly don't need to defend that position to me. It is quite reasonable to hold that view. That being said, there are some of the forum members here who have questions about off-road ebikes and the trends that are now being seen in that industry.
> 
> I had the pleasure of test-riding a variety of off-road ebikes at the Interbike conventions in 2014 and 2015, and in my capacity as an ebike journalist, I felt I might be able to answer "some" of the questions that might arise.
> 
> ...


Okay Mr Spinning magnets,
I believe you wrote this article and I would like you to tell me how this is a bicycle? Do you really not see why there is so much controversy. Do you really think this belongs on a non-motorized trail?
https://www.electricbike.com/qulbix-raptor/


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I want to know what the point of pedals even is on that thing besides to get home when you run the battery out.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## spinningmagnets (Jun 17, 2014)

Thanks for checking out the site, rather than repudiating it while just saying that "I already know I don't like it without reading it". The Raptor is definitely at the top end of the power scale. It is the ebike that will endure, because it can not only accept a rear hubmotor, those who have ridden gasoline dirt bikes will understand when I say that it is capable of using a powerful mid drive (moving the motor from the wheel to the frame, unsprung weight).

I confess that you will never see a 250W pedelec Raptor. Anyone who pays the cost of a Raptor does it because they can handle very high power levels. It is an off-road electric motorcycle with pedals. They are popular in Germany and Australia, so I doubt you will ever see one "in the wild". If I win the lottery, one thing I would like to do is sponsor a Qulbix Raptor Q76R/Lightning Rods mid drive E-motocross event (we can only dream). 

I don't believe the Raptor should be allowed on a non-motorized trail (Am I forgiven?)

I also wrote about "electric motorcycles with pedals" from Italy, Germany, Australia, Austria, Canada, Russia, Sweden, etc. If they are legal in "X", should I refuse to write about them?

I've been an MTBR forum member since June 2014, but you can see I have rarely posted. There haven't been many questions about ebikes for me to answer. I only recently noticed the MTBR index header: "Electric bikes for trails, commuting, road"

I fall into the "commuting, road" category, but I have also ridden many off-road ebikes (at Interbike 2014/2015), so I thought maybe I could answer comparisons between two models that a member was curious about. If you check my post-history, I have never advocated for ebikes on non-motorized trails. If the title of the original post had specified "Say no to off road ebiking" I likely wouldn't have posted at all.

Maybe you feel that I am becoming an enabler, by providing information about off-road ebikes. Personally, I honestly believe that if someone wants an off-road ebike, they are going to buy something, whether I answer any questions or not. Just for the record, If my opinion means anything to the readers here, please don't ride your ebike like an @$$hole, and please only ride where your type of ebike is allowed.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

AS a member of the Endless Sphere Elc bike forms and a longtime MT biker I have been riding a MT bike since the 80s , I have ridden Moab lots did the Durango DH and chased John Tomac around the xc trail . I see both sides I now ride a E bike because I have to if I still want to ride , I have been legally handicapped for over 8 yrs I was not a E bike guy I was a semi pro Motor crosser for 40yr and a expert rated Hang glider pilot. I do have some insight and experience . As now an E bike rider I have posted my concern on the Elc bike forms about the use of the 5000 and more watt guys on steath bombers and Raptures , these do not belong on reg or purpose built MT bike trails . My Mac geard hub motor pulls 30a @ 52 v = 1000 watt never over 1500w a very low power as are most E bikes , if it can spend the wheel pop a wheelie its too powerful to be on a MT bike only trail.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

There is no practical way to police one type of e-bike from another type of e-bike that is deemed too powerful. In the same way somebody could put a very tiny gas engine on a MTB and say "Look this is the same power as a strong rider would put out." We all know that once you have that type of gas engine motorcycle on the trails somebody will run a bigger engine and a bigger engine.

Who is going to spend the time to police exactly what type of engine you are using on your electric motorcycle???

That said there are trails open to electric motorcycles and you should go to those trails and enjoy the heck out of your e-moto. I ride past moto trails on my way to some of our hiking/MTB trails and those folks look like they are having a lot of fun.

Where I live it's simple the trails we ride MTBs on are clearly signed "For non-motorized use only." Any e-MTB/electric motorcycle found on those trails is illegal and you can bet they'll get flack from the parking lot and anywhere on the trails until they are caught and ticketed. With smart phones everywhere it's easy to document stuff like this and identify the offender.

If your local MTB trails are not restricted to human powered vehicles only than have at 'er.


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## shredchic (Jun 18, 2007)

*Say No to E Crack Biking*



d365 said:


> Yeah, we all know that's not really going to work either, as said, no real policing. And who really wants policing on the trails anyway? not me... even though I despise the idea of being passed by an e-mtb. (Some dude with one hand on the throttle and the other on a cheeseburger.)
> 
> There are several poster (of the few here) that seem pretty obstinate about riding wherever they want, and no one is going to tell them different. I've certainly poached my fare share of trails. Hell, a good chunk of the trails around here are not really sanctioned. Yes, I'm a big hypocrite.
> 
> ...


^ Well said. Mountain biking can't grow or add an entirely new market segment with motors (no matter how quiet and tiny) without more mtb-specific trails to handle the load. I know how hard it was for my local area mtb club to get one 1.5 mile multi-use trail built politically. So that's what bothers me. Not the technology - not getting passed on the climbs. What are the majors going to do to address that? They want to make the money, but have no clue or just don't seem to care about our difficulties with trail access. It is a local issue unique to some places and not others.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I ride with my Handicap placard on my MT bike you have your opinion that's your problem , I try in be reasonable I am friendly I show and explain my low power bike . Now were do you ride?? is it fun trails ??


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

CA has plenty of bad things, but a few good ones:
1) Most riding spots are empty during the week.
2) If you know where to go, you'll find empty areas on the weekend too.
3) Recently passed Class 1 law that a 750w max, 20 mph max, pedal assist is defined as a "bike". Hasn't been through the courts yet, but seems to mean they can be used on any trails; little constabulary so it's almost a moot point.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Fl just passed or so the bike shops are saying low power E bikes are now allowed on all bike paths and trails , what the reg MT bikes don,t understand is in most states if its under low power then its legally still a bicycle . This does not mean a 3000 maxus or 5000 DD hub motor would be allowed its that simple .


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

You can use your e-motorcycle/MTB here ^^^










You can't use your e-motorcycle/MTB here ^^^

How your jurisdiction classifies your e-moto/MTB applies to it's need for licensing and use on the road. Each trail area is going to have different regulations and if you have a motor it's a motorized vehicle.










Another obvious no e-motorcycles/MTBs.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

No you can,t use a E motorcycle but I can ride my low power Mt bike with my handicap placard as I flip you the brid when I ride by hehe .


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

rider95 said:


> No you can,t use a E motorcycle but I can ride my low power Mt bike with my handicap placard as I flip you the brid when I ride by hehe .


You can do anything you want. Hopefully you flip off a cop or a park ranger and get the appropriate ticket and fine.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> I had a fat dude on an e-fat "bike" blow by me as I was doing 10min intervals on my road bike in Fort Collins, CO. IIRC, it was a slight uphill grade at the time.
> 
> For reference, I am an Pro XC racer and CAT1 road racer.
> 
> I'd argue there is a cause for concern.


So the problem is, you were passed?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Lol yes the guy above has probably not been passed by another biker in a long time and after all his work a fat dude on a fat tire bike just passed him . So now I guess he wants to ban E bikes on his road , I mean after all its his road were he does his 10 min sprints training for his race we all should respect his road and stay off of it .


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

rider95 said:


> Lol yes the guy above has probably not been passed by another biker in a long time and after all his work a fat dude on a fat tire bike just passed him . So now I guess he wants to ban E bikes on his road , I mean after all its his road were he does his 10 min sprints training for his race we all should respect his road and stay off of it .


I've been taking my fat bike down to Ft. Collins recently to have a little nicer weather to ride in. I had a guy tell me yesterday that if I beat him on my fat bike to the top of the canyon that I couldn't tell his roadie friends. (Mine is not an e-bike, and I'm not fat.)


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Friend of mine regularly beats me on climbs with his fat bike. People have to stop being ashamed and there'd be less animosity.


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## matuchi (Jun 9, 2008)

GRPABT1 said:


> Friend of mine regularly beats me on climbs with his fat bike. People have to stop being ashamed and there'd be less animosity.


My 14 year old son beats me up a lot of climbs on my old 1996 Stumpjumper - and I'm proud as hell every time he does! :thumbsup:


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## Stalkerfiveo (Feb 24, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> A person that pedals AND jams on the throttle, whether they are going uphill or downhill, is going to have to brake more often (going faster both uphill and down; yes, people brake when going uphill fast) and harder.
> 
> Why is braking "harder" a bad thing? Generally speaking, it tears up the trail. And, unless the performance of hydraulic brakes has changed recently, unbeknownst to me, brake fade becomes an issue with less time between braking intervals AND more intense braking. So, then you have a legitimate safety concern.
> 
> Now, maybe you just don't care about the safety of yourself, or others on the trail. So be it. I do, though, and if I see you riding your e-bike on trails that forbid it, I'll take a picture and do what I can to see you ticketed.


Ban all the fast guys too.

So many of these threads pop up all the time. Surprisingly each somehow turns out dumber than the last.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Its so wrong its funny that dude must be one fast rider if brake fade is a problem for him , sounds to me he is the one that's a legitimate safety concern .


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

GRPABT1 said:


> You missed the point entirely. A prius hasn't bothered your daily commute any more than e-bikes have bothered your mtb ride (other than your own preconceived rage). Everyone talks about motorbikes and tearing up the trails when lamblasting e-bikes and yet nobody seems to have an actual account of them doing so. It's always just "they cruised on past me on the climb like I was slower than I think I am". Lose your own ego for a moment and base your judgement on evidence and there is nothing wrong with e-bikes. You can't blame an e-bikes any more than you can blame a road bike for some wanker riding it in the middle of the driving lane.


No, you missed the point. Priuses will never cause road closures for all vehicles. Again, terrible analogy.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

GRPABT1 said:


> You're an idiot. Even bikes aren't the cause of any trail closures. You're creating a problem that doesn't exist.


Insults do nothing to make your point, quite the opposite. We're trying to prevent a potential problem by limiting or preventing motor-assist bikes from having access to non-motorized trails. It has nothing to do with problems that exist. Yet.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I have been riding a 1500w low power E bike for 2 yrs now I ride trails from Mich to Fl the so called problem you fear doesn't exist and won,t, None of us in the E bike community , are saying that the 3000w and 5000w stealth Rapture bike should be allowed on MT bike trails. Even if some of them do have pedals on them no they are simply too big too powerful and would be clumped with the motorcycle guys . And I agree with you about the insults all you have to do is read Shopmockey post, this member encourages others to use violence and to steal E bikers property . We are E bikers we love our bikes we came to this form to help with questions and to show the many ways e bikes are being used around us everyday . We did not come here to be insulted , made fun of, be threated to have are stuff stolen , the insults have been more one sided here .


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## Stalkerfiveo (Feb 24, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> it is
> 
> Don't confuse concern about access issues among mtb enthusiasts for "hate" towards e-bikes, keep them in legally accepted areas (e.g. roads) and we'll all be happy.


Wiki huh? In that case, Google disagrees:



> mo·tor·cy·cle
> ˈmōdərˌsīk(ə)l/
> noun
> a two-wheeled vehicle that is powered by a motor *and has no pedals.*


Your Wiki definition also states that is the definition for taxation and tag-ability. I doubt E-bikes will be tagged or taxed as "motorcycles" in any sense of the definition.

Nice try though.


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

It's amusing how many people here seem to have forgotten that you don't need an e-bike to ride like a jackass or tear up the trail. Seems to be the same group clinging to the "e-bikes will get all bikes banned" slippery slope argument.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

rider95 said:


> I have been riding a 1500w low power E bike for 2 yrs now I ride trails from Mich to Fl the so called problem you fear doesn't exist and won,t, None of us in the E bike community , are saying that the 3000w and 5000w stealth Rapture bike should be allowed on MT bike trails. Even if some of them do have pedals on them no they are simply too big too powerful and would be clumped with the motorcycle guys...


I've seen this argument before and it won't wash. Who will enforce this power limit? Who will check E-bikes at the trail head to make sure they fall within these boost limitations? Who will say, "that one is ok, this one is not," and who will listen to them? Do you think some people won't buy the most powerful one they can, and try to ride it where they want, legal or not? No, sorry-complete ban is the only responsible choice. There are plenty of trails open to motorized use for E-bikers to enjoy.

BTW, I live in Michigan and if I see an E-bike on a non-motorized trail I will do my non-violent, legal best to make them feel unwelcome. That's not a threat or an insult, but it's a fact.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Stalkerfiveo said:


> Nice try though.


Whatever, I'll leave the semantics to politicians & lawyers. Any reasonable person would surmise that any 2-wheeled transport (cycle) with a motor aboard = motor/cycle.

Efficient, low powered electric motorcycles (e-bikes) are cool and all but they are as out of place in certain environments (e.g. wilderness areas) as petrol powered motorbikes are.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

SteveF I ride FT custer park a really cool place to ride I am up there every 4 of july weekend when I come up for RED Bud . Mabey you could show this old handicap rider around ?? lol . J B a e bike under 2.5 is by law a bicycle that's why E bikes are now allowed on bike paths, this means 3000w and up are not I know this is hard for some of you . You would much rather be a chicken little the sky is falling with e bikes! there is room for low power e bikes and they are nothing to fear .


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## Stalkerfiveo (Feb 24, 2015)

What's funniest is that the typical e bike buyer will be the one with a physical impairment (bad knees, ankles, etc) that requires them to make the purchase to continue enjoying the sport. Yet some of you think this same rider will become a trail shredding maniac the moment a small motor adds the equivalent of 50 pedaling watts to their climbing abilities.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> there is room for low power e bikes and they are nothing to fear .


Yep, plenty of room on the multitudes of paved and dirt roads that already exist for them, unfortunately there's relatively little space for non-motorized travel so I'm pretty adamant about preserving what's left of it.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

unfortunately there's relatively little space for non-motorized travel ??????? were do you live?? Here we go again like shopmockey making stuff up .


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yep, plenty of room on the multitudes of paved and dirt roads that already exist for them, unfortunately there's relatively little space for non-motorized travel so I'm pretty adamant about preserving what's left of it.


Yup! No hate here, I've ridden them and like them. Just not on trails specified for non-motorized use. Pretty simple really. As we age and become infirm, we'll have to ride our ebikes on trails for motorized vehicles only. Oh well.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> unfortunately there's relatively little space for non-motorized travel ??????? were do you live??


USA. 4 million miles of paved and unpaved roads dedicated to motorized traffic, and that doesn't include any of the off-road areas that are legal for them.

How many miles of trails that restrict off road vehicles do you suppose there are?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Not your trails they do no harm do not spin tire you can not see a diff but lets handicap riders ride agene. OK you think I should never be allowed to ride my e bike on any MT bike trail again you all have made this clear ,you don,t care handicap or not hell no no E bike ! lets hear it come on !!!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I don't hate ebikes, I think they are fantastic really, and the ebike riders can argue all they'd like about power limits, how they aren't motos, that people ride them elsewhere without issues, but the one issue that can't be denied is that here in the US, trail access for mtbs has for decades been fought for based on the premise that bikes are NON MOTORIZED. This has been a long and bitter battle in many places and to expect bike advocates to come to the table now and say "hey, we're riding motorized bikes now, but they aren't really because they still have pedals, see?" is asinine. It will only give the bike haters that much more ammunition (Motors! Gahh!) and once ebikes become far more powerful and able to do trail damage, reasons to keep them off trails.

And that will happen, to pretend that ebikes aren't a threat to trail advocacy is childish.

How to bypass the limiter:






20mph top speed? Get real.

https://electricbikereview.com/e-rad/750-watt-mid-drive-conversion-kit/#!prettyPhoto

The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com

TLDR, I don't hate ebikes, I think they are both a great tool for transportation and for fun, just like motorcycles. If I had one, I'd mod it the next day to go faster. Bring them on, but ride them where motorized vehicles are permitted, not on no moto single track.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Yeah, pretty clear. There is and must continue to be a delineation. A bike with a motor, under the guise of handicap access or not, should not be allowed on a trail designated for non-motorized use.


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

Wow, didn't realize there was all this to do about E Bikes. I just recently started looking at them as just another form of biking and fun. I've read about them years ago but just brushed them off because the technology really wasn't there yet. Now with the release of the new Specialized Turbo Levo's my interest has been peaked again. I did my research and found in Delaware the laws are as follows: 

"Bicycle" shall mean that certain class of vehicles which are exclusively human-powered by means of foot pedals, which the driver normally rides astride, which have not in excess of three wheels and which may be commonly known as unicycles, bicycles and tricycles. Also, includes a two- or three wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 hp) whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 m.p.h

Based on that definition by the state I would be allowed to ride my E MTB on my local trails and could argue the fact if I met any resistance. Having said that there are some trails around here that I wouldn't ride the bike on simply because I just don't think it's responsible to do so. I think that's the key here, just be responsible when riding and where you ride. 

I've double checked with both state parks and was told its fine to ride my E MTB on the trails there. I can't wait for these bikes to become available and take one for a spin. I'm looking forward to adding one to my ever expanding bike collection


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## Stalkerfiveo (Feb 24, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yep, plenty of room on the multitudes of paved and dirt roads that already exist for them, unfortunately there's relatively little space for non-motorized travel so I'm pretty adamant about preserving what's left of it.


That's where an E-bike totally belongs, I-40!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

E bikes are many diff thing to many diff ppl just like a regbike all this hate is unfounded the way some of you post , you would think the dam e bikes are everywhere I find this all funny. The sky is falling the sky is falling lol too funny in the two yrs I have had mine I have only seen a few pedgos on the dealer show room . I have never seen another e bike on any trail, but from all the stories I am being told on hear we are about to be overrun with them . Never let the truth stand in the way of a good lie


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

rider95 said:


> Never let the truth stand in the way of a good lie


like e-bikes shouldn't be categorized as motorized vehicles?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

You do understand that e bikes come in diff power , most are very low 300w - 500w not to be confused with 5000w stealth $10,000 type right ?? and for your info if its under that then it is still a bicycle by law a non motorized vehicle . Just because you guys are stuck on (well it has a motor) doesn't make it a motorcycle . Thankful your opinion is just that your opinion know the difference .


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

rider95 said:


> You do understand that e bikes come in diff power , most are very low 300w - 500w not to be confused with 5000w stealth $10,000 type right ?? and for your info if its under that then it is still a bicycle by law a non motorized vehicle . Just because you guys are stuck on (well it has a motor) doesn't make it a motorcycle . Thankful your opinion is just that your opinion know the difference .


like you said - never let the truth get in the way of a _profitable_ lie....

I can't tell the difference between your "bicycle" and a 5000w stealth.... and neither will the people who decide to ban all bikes from trails because of it.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Let's see... Somehow a bicycle with a motor is a non-motorized bicycle. Yeah, that makes sense. Oye!


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

The Stealth looks way more like a motorcycle than a pedal assist e bike like the Specialized Turbo Levo's. I can see a Stealth being banned but a low power pedal assist bike like the Specialized bikes won't cause any more harm to trails than a regular MTB. 

I've checked with the parks around where I live and they have no problem with pedal assist bikes being ridden on their trails. Even so there are trails that I wouldn't ride one on because I just don't feel the bikes belong on them. E Bikers just need to be responsible and check with land owners before using the trails.


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## paxy (Apr 6, 2012)

Here is my two cents- whether you like ebikes or no, you should be law abiding. If the trail says no motorized vehicles, then don't ride an ebike on it. Different localities may have different rules so you should check with them before riding if there is a question.

All of the trails in my area are blm trails and are marked non motorized. A blm spokesman said the following: Steve Hall, a BLM spokesman, says the agency views e-bikes as motorized vehicles, so they are prohibited from trails designated for foot traffic, horses or mountain bikes.

"If there is significant public interest, the BLM could consider changing the designation," he says. "It's safe to say the consensus in the recreational community right now is that what we regard as mountain bikes don't have motors" http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-fight-to-ride-electric-mountain-bikes-on-the-trail-1411599454

So I think ebike users should stay off non motorized trails until regulations can catch up with technology. When the regs change I'll welcome them to my local trails with open arms

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

You are looking a little silly if you can,t tell the difference but don ,t worry I am here to help answer all your misconceptions and concerns with e bikes .


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

paxy said:


> Here is my two cents- whether you like ebikes or no, you should be law abiding. If the trail says no motorized vehicles, then don't ride an ebike on it. Different localities may have different rules so you should check with them before riding if there is a question.


Bingo! Check with the land owners of the trails you want to ride before you ride them. If the trail is only for non motorized bicycles then stay off it. Unfortunately there will always be some ass hat who won't care and ride on them any way but that can be countered by stiff penalties for those who break the rules.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

rider95 said:


> You are looking a little silly if you can,t tell the difference but don ,t worry I am here to help answer all your misconceptions and concerns with e bikes .


deflecting the conversation, when you can't speak to the point of my statement..... classic. you'll be a fine spokesman.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Your the one that said you can ,t tell a 5000w $10,000 stealth bomber from my 500w e bike , you can, t tell the difference like you said. I am just trying to help Because that's one of the ways some e bikes will be allowed on diff trails and others wont .


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

d365 said:


> like e-bikes shouldn't be categorized as motorized vehicles?


They should be their own category. Of course they should be allowed on trails that allow motorcycles. When it comes to trails that do not, then it depends on the reason for them being banned. Often, the reason is noise. In those cases, the rules should change to allow ebikes.

Lobbying to ban ebikes from everywhere except existing motocross trails will backfire, as the arguments we would have to make to the land management agencies are exactly the same as those that the hikers and equestrians use to get all bikes banned from as many trails as possible.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Assuming CA's law is adopted elsewhere, there are problems if anyone expects it to be enforced or regulated by class, the differences between classes are small, not readily visible and easily circumvented.

It's here if anyone would like to read it:

Bill Text - AB-1096 Vehicles: electric bicycles.

To summarize:

Ebikes have a motor rated at 750W or less, have pedals and 30mph top speed.

Class 1 - pedal assist only 20mph top speed.

Class 2 - pedal assist or throttle 20mph top speed.

Class 3 - pedal assist only 28mph top speed

Classes 1 & 2 are allowed everywhere except where locally prohibited.
Class 3 is not allowed anywhere except where expressly permitted by local ordinance.

Class 1-3 look identical except to the trained user. (Gripshift or throttle?) They will have stickers which mean little in the real world and anyone using a kit will have zero markings.

This is a review of a kit that has been out since 2013

It's a 750W kit, all legal right?

"The eRAD kit is available in three sizes as mentioned previously and the 750 watt version covered here is at the top of the heap. It actually doesn't weigh more than the 500 watt version but it does switch to 48 volt power which peaks motor output at 1,300 watts. This is the same as HPC's 1300 watt motor but it's labeled as 750 because that's the nominal rating which adheres to legal restrictions."

So.... top speed is supposed to be 30mph.

"By using the passcode provided by Lectric Cycles or your dealer you are able to adjust wheel size, top speed and other defaults like the backlit and auto-off time (which defaults to five minutes). Depending on how you adjust the bike it's possible to reach ~40 mph as mentioned earlier."

The legislation is simply an open door to get ebikes into the wild, once there they will only get more powerful and faster. That's what the bike industry sells now, just look at the ads. I'd expect the difference between the stated "nominal" and peak wattage only to grow.



> You are looking a little silly if you can,t tell the difference but don ,t worry I am here to help answer all your misconceptions and concerns with e bikes .


Here's a 7400W commercially available ebike that could easily pass for a legal class 1 or 2. It frankly looks horrifying to ride but that's another story.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

This is for CAL right? well its a start but Calf has more real wide open and steep terrain looks like Calf is trying to at least start somewere .Around here its if it can spin the tire pull a wheelie than its too powerful for the MT bike trails which I think is a more true value and better for the other riders .


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Harryman, they don't want to hear all that. It doesn't fit their argument. Legal e-mtbs are future proof, and everyone follows rules.... It's all just "noise" to keep them off non motorized trails.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

It makes sense to me low power bikes are allowed pretty much every were with restriction's coming with more power .


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

What are you going to do when you encounter a e-bike rider on your local trail? Are you going to throw rocks or be friendly and start a conversation?
In my neighborhood we have equestrian problems. I have always said hello and tried to get along. In our most popular riding area some of the trails got designated horse only and some are bike only. Well the bikers are courteous and the horses go wherever they want. Now the Equestrians are circulating a petition to get bikes off even more trails.
My problem is not with e-bikes or responsible e-bikers. It will be with the new e-bike riders that "don't know" or feel that they have a "right to". You see a new rider with pedal assist will be able to go a lot more places then we could when we started out. And they wont know or care about our issues. To me this means conflict and trail closure.
When I see a seasoned rider on a e-bike I will smile and wave. When I see a cigarette smoking trail hack I will throw rocks.


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

rlee said:


> What are you going to do when you encounter a e-bike rider on your local trail? Are you going to throw rocks or be friendly and start a conversation?
> In my neighborhood we have equestrian problems. I have always said hello and tried to get along. In our most popular riding area some of the trails got designated horse only and some are bike only. Well the bikers are courteous and the horses go wherever they want. Now the Equestrians are circulating a petition to get bikes off even more trails.
> My problem is not with e-bikes or responsible e-bikers. It will be with the new e-bike riders that "don't know" or feel that they have a "right to". You see a new rider with pedal assist will be able to go a lot more places then we could when we started out. And they wont know or care about our issues. To me this means conflict and trail closure.
> When I see a seasoned rider on a e-bike I will smile and wave. When I see a cigarette smoking trail hack I will throw rocks.


Around me we have parks that have trails for horses, multi use, hiking/walking only and bikes. Even with the trails being restricted as such there is always one ass hat who chooses to do what he or she feels. I can't tell you how many times I've come across horse **** on trails that are supposed to be only for hiking or walking as well as MTB tire marks. It's unfortunate that certain people choose to ignore the rules but idiots come in all forms so let's not make the E Bikers out to be the bad guy.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Yes but from the response from some other members of this forums we are hated worst then horse ppl lol , its all about trail access and we all have had a bad experience. I had a hiker yell at me @FT Harrison st park, when I went to go around her I approached her from behind going slow I even nodded to her as I always do to everyone I come across but she yelled at me I replied its a muilt use trail lady . And she didn't know I was on a E bike I was lucky , had that been one of the e bike haters on here I would have got knocked off my e bike held down and had my battery stolen .


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

rider95 said:


> *its all about trail access* and we all have had a bad experience. I had a hiker yell at me @FT Harrison st park, when I went to go around her I approached her from behind going slow I even nodded to her as I always do to everyone I come across but she yelled at me I replied its a muilt use trail lady . *And she didn't know I was on a E bike*


way to represent:madman:. you didn't flip her the bird too?


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

So what happens when they mod their ebike to go faster and take it out on the trail?
The battery will run down and they will get to pedal (or push) that beast up the hill.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

I think that e-bikes are great in that they help people who ordinarily wouldn't ride a bike get out and actually ride a bike.

My only concern comes with the perception of e-bikes and how it could possibly hurt the efforts of groups like the STC in regaining access into wilderness areas. We all know that the big eco lobby groups like the Sierra Club will hold up the e-bike extreme as the norm. Likely there will be no happy medium and outright bans will be made or they'll be classified as motorized vehicles.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

Was out today with the owner of our LBS (on roadbikes), he was saying ebikes are now nearly 60% of his business, he can hardly keep up with demand, and we are talking FS mtbs not "citybikes", of those purchases approx 80% are couples in their mid 20s to mid 30s who stopped riding as kids, his biggest fear is those people overestimating their ability and underestimating the speed, we already have had a rise in old people on ebikes crashing on the road.

Im not really fussed by ebikes, simple fact is theyre coming (well theyre here), and life will go on, some laws will change as more ebikes come and ride all over.

BUT......l will never be happy when passed going uphill by an ebike, that is just plain cheating, lm gonna start carrying a stick to put into the spokes


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

cmg71 said:


> Was out today with the owner of our LBS (on roadbikes), he was saying ebikes are now nearly 60% of his business, he can hardly keep up with demand, and we are talking FS mtbs not "citybikes", of those purchases approx 80% are couples in their mid 20s to mid 30s who stopped riding as kids, his biggest fear is those people overestimating their ability and underestimating the speed, we already have had a rise in old people on ebikes crashing on the road.
> 
> Im not really fussed by ebikes, simple fact is theyre coming (well theyre here), and life will go on, some laws will change as more ebikes come and ride all over.
> 
> BUT......l will never be happy when passed going uphill by an ebike, that is just plain cheating, lm gonna start carrying a stick to put into the spokes


Put a stick in the spokes, that's a great attitude. Why even bother with them, just let them go knowing your accomplishing the same goal without any assistance. Don't be part of the problem.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

All perceived conflict aside. Doesn't riding a assist bike kind of defeat having a bicycle. I mean when I started some of the enjoyment came from achieving goals while riding. 
Now what do you say, "I cleaned that hill using only 750 watts" or I just did my first century and still had some battery life left"


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

rlee said:


> All perceived conflict aside. Doesn't riding a assist bike kind of defeat having a bicycle. I mean when I started some of the enjoyment came from achieving goals while riding.
> Now what do you say, "I cleaned that hill using only 750 watts" or I just did my first century and still had some battery life left"


For me personally it's just another form bicycling and another fun bike to add to the stable. I'll keep my Fuel EX 8 and road bike to ride on days I feel like being self propelled. My biggest problem with the E Bikes is the price. I'll have to demo one to determine if all the technology is worth it. The new Specialized Turbo Levo's start at 4K for the hard tail and 5k for a FS.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

JVG1967 said:


> Put a stick in the spokes, that's a great attitude. Why even bother with them, just let them go knowing your accomplishing the same goal without any assistance. Don't be part of the problem.


are you suggesting a metal rod then?


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## matuchi (Jun 9, 2008)

cmg71 said:


> are you suggesting a metal rod then?


What difference does it make if someone on a an e-bike passes you? I'm 64 and ride a Camber Comp Carbon and was passed by a young couple in their twenties last week that were both on new e-bikes. It was a very steep section of fire road and one of my hardest climbs, and they went around me like I was standing still - which I almsot was. The point is - I'm only in a race against myself so it doesn't bother me if I get passed by somone. Live and let live - you'll be a lot happier thinking that way.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I would suggest a wooden rod it will be easer to pull that out of your A** when you get to the E room if you try that with me.


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## matuchi (Jun 9, 2008)

rider95 said:


> I would suggest a wooden rod it will be easer to pull that out of your A** when you get to the E room if you try that with me.


Easy Chief - I think he was only joking about the stick in the spokes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

cmg71 said:


> are you suggesting a metal rod then?


Yep, a wooden one might break.

I kid, I kid!!!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

was he?? and the others too? we need to keep this friendly if you hate e bikes so bad why are you here?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Sorry I see he was I am getting a little touchy from all the E bike hate my Bad


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

^totally joking, no hate bro.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I need to go ride my E bike it takes me to happy places


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yep, a wooden one might break.
> 
> I kid, I kid!!!


Cinzano! (Need a frame pump for that though.)


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> I would suggest a wooden rod it will be easer to pull that out of your A** when you get to the E room if you try that with me.


Slow up a minute there keyboard hero, go back and reread my post, mostly the second paragraph, then also notice the winking smilie after the stick comment? that usually means the preceding comment was tongue in cheek.

I did like what you did with E-room though



rider95 said:


> was he?? and the others too? we need to keep this friendly if you hate e bikes so bad why are you here?


Yes l was, now take your own advice on keeping this thread "friendly"


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

rider95 said:


> I would suggest a wooden rod it will be easer to pull that out of your A** when you get to the E room if you try that with me.


Wow, the first e-bike internet badass with an interest in anal penetration. Remember, you saw it first right here on mtbr.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

I don't know where you live or what kind of obscure bike shop your friend owns but I find 60% of sales being e-bikes hard to believe unless he is specifically an e-bike specialist.

I honestly find most of this negativity hard to believe. The advocacy issue even, I'm unaware of anywhere traditional bikes have been banned based on the affect e-bikes have had. I also don't think anyone would be as inept to ban pedal powered bikes purely because they cannot distinguish them from e-bikes.

Honestly I think the whole hatred is unjust and none of it evidentiary based.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

GRPABT1 said:


> You missed the point entirely. A prius hasn't bothered your daily commute any more than e-bikes have bothered your mtb ride (other than your own preconceived rage). Everyone talks about motorbikes and tearing up the trails when lamblasting e-bikes and yet nobody seems to have an actual account of them doing so. It's always just "they cruised on past me on the climb like I was slower than I think I am". Lose your own ego for a moment and base your judgement on evidence and there is nothing wrong with e-bikes. You can't blame an e-bikes any more than you can blame a road bike for some wanker riding it in the middle of the driving lane.


 Dude, you're from AUS? Great, keep them there with all your sheep and desert. Wanker indeed. We actually have some population/trail/access issues here.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

GRPABT1 said:


> I don't know where you live or what kind of obscure bike shop your friend owns but I find 60% of sales being e-bikes hard to believe unless he is specifically an e-bike specialist.
> 
> I honestly find most of this negativity hard to believe. The advocacy issue even, I'm unaware of anywhere traditional bikes have been banned based on the affect e-bikes have had. I also don't think anyone would be as inept to ban pedal powered bikes purely because they cannot distinguish them from e-bikes.
> 
> Honestly I think the whole hatred is unjust and none of it evidentiary based.


Some people HATE bikes here in the USA. And they are banned from wilderness, many parks , forests and preserves. Good thing here in MA, no motor vehicles allowed on trails( public parks and forests) There are places to ride motor stuff off road, they can ride there. Distinguish? Hear abut the young 'cross woman who didn't "know" her bike had a MOTOR in to cheat, give me a break. I think we need a USA only e bike forum, please. The issue in many places is that bike access is tenuous at best. Trails being closed to bikes and access limited. Or not even being in the discussion. If you are not living in the USA, please let us know so we can disregard your comments. Or we can tell you what's right and wrong in your country. UmmK? Ask them Brits how that worked out for them here 200+ years ago.


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

Ah, this forum has brought forth some good reading!

I don't care if e-bikes are on trails as long as they are pedal assist and not just throttled brap brap machines. One of the biggest arguments I see for allowing e-bikes is to give those who can't pedal on their own a way to get out on the trails. Great, all for people peeling themselves off the couch. A potential problem I see with this is what if people who are relying on this assistance ride remote trails and their e-whatever breaks down? Can't imagine a guy who can't pedal too well will be able to hike out either.

Yes, regular bikes break down too but the person pedaling it would probably be able to handle an X distance hike out if need be. And yes, regular bike riders get injured and need assistance from SAR to get out of remote areas occasionally but will these SAR teams be out picking up said e-bikers because of a dead battery rather than a "real" emergency? I predict so and I am not ok with that.

Perhaps those who need e-bikes to just get out there will stick to local parks/trails that aren't "out there" because they are cognizant of their abilities without the bike.. Or maybe not. Just don't ask me for any parts to help you get your e-bike revving again out on a remote trail cuz I won't have what you need, except maybe my phone to call for help.

My guess is that the demographics of people looking to drop the coin on these e-bikes will include a lot of weekend warriors who will ride them a bit and then let the thing sit in the garage rarely used. Sure there will be some avid riders who will add one to their regular bike stable but right now I just don't see this being the case.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Decent ones will be expensive, I don't think you'll see cheap ones that far into the backcountry. 

Actually, I think the people most likely to buy them are older mtbers who still want the range that their younger legs used to give them, people who used to ride a lot and now can't/don't for various reasons and the ebike for the SO, so they can keep up with you on the climbs. In short, people who already ride, not newbs. 

Rentals will be huge in resort riding areas and those places will see and already do see, injuries from people riding beyind their limits.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

My E bike broke down on me I was riding on a MT bike trail somewere north of Columbus Ohio I pushed my bike out to the road , Some Mt bikers came by they was real nice to me Not like the ones on here they went n got their truck picked me and took me back to my van .


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

bakerjw said:


> I think that e-bikes are great in that they help people who ordinarily wouldn't ride a bike get out and actually ride a bike.


^^This, not this:



rlee said:


> All perceived conflict aside. Doesn't riding a assist bike kind of defeat having a bicycle. I mean when I started some of the enjoyment came from achieving goals while riding.


I saw a group on an e-bike tour of the scenic loop of Red Rock Canyon in Las Vegas, I waved and one of them gave me a thumbs up. Where they were going, the Scenic Loop, is a challenging climb and most non-cyclists would struggle to make it to the top. But, using e-bikes they can ride the loop and enjoy the scenery in a way that would normally be inaccessible to them.

Good for them for getting out without a car.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

IN KY there is a underground bike park that gives tours on E bikes its in Louisville


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^ Ok great, that's a park just for biking. Supposed to have some nice jumps in there as well.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> So I say: Suck it up princess(s), either earn your turns or get a more comfortable couch.


HA, I love it!!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

bdundee said:


> HA, I love it!!


I'm not a prick in real life, really


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## artkrime (Nov 27, 2010)

richde said:


> ^^This, not this:
> 
> I saw a group on an e-bike tour of the scenic loop of Red Rock Canyon in Las Vegas, I waved and one of them gave me a thumbs up. Where they were going, the Scenic Loop, is a challenging climb and most non-cyclists would struggle to make it to the top. But, using e-bikes they can ride the loop and enjoy the scenery in a way that would normally be inaccessible to them.
> 
> Good for them for getting out without a car.


Great point. I am a veteran (former Marine) and thanks to the service, my left knee is messed up for the rest of my life and I'm only in my early 30's. I love riding the trails and pushing myself as it also helps keep me in shape but when my knee hurts every day, it's hard to keep going, knowing the pain that awaits. I dont have an ebike but I think a pedal assist system on a FS bike would be a life saver on my knee and make it more enjoyable to ride.

On a separate note, are there retrofit pedal assist systems for FS mountain bikes that work well? Any recommendations? I'd rather not have to buy a bike specifically designed for it unless it's greatly beneficial.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

E-Bikers in California

California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles. These outdated signs were meant for motorcycles and ATVs. Plus they were put up before this new law was signed and made LAW.

So if anyone is riding their ebikes and get stopped. Make sure that you have a printed copy of this bill and show the ranger/police. If you are on a Ca State Park trail (that includes City Parks), you are protected! Trails on Federal land or privately owned parks..ehh, ????.

Either way, if you get a ticket...Fight it! It'll force them to update those outdated signage. If any "haters" threaten you with bodily harm. They're breaking a different law and you have every right to defend yourself.

Have fun and don't kill the flow!

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...01520160AB1096


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## spinningmagnets (Jun 17, 2014)

"...are there retrofit pedal assist systems for FS mountain bikes that work well?..."

artkrime, the kits are more affordable than factory turn-key ebikes. The most popular right now are the smaller BBS02, and the slightly larger BBSHD (HD= heavy duty). If your most desired frame has a straight downtube, the installation would be fairly easy. The BBSHD is only slightly more powerful, but it is much better at absorbing and shedding heat, for long uphill climbs.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I just had to reply to this!

What if some people dont care about any of the competitive aspects of biking? As in: they have no idea what a "century" is and cleaning and watts means vacuuming the living room! It sure seems that the folks who are buying these bikes and riding them to visit our great open spaces are very unlikely to be wearing those silly Lycra suits when they do so. So much of the opposition to ebikes is from "athletes" whose feelings are hurt by being passed by the "undeserving" in what were previously their "private" places. Are they unable to see how rediculous they sound? 

Secondly, banning ALL ebikes from ALL MTB trails because 3000+ watt electric motorcycles with pedals exist is just like banning ALL cars from our highways because Bugatti Veyrons, Ferraris, and Lamborghinis exist. That's not the way we do things in America, we make reasonable rules and we punish violators of those rules. Allowing Class 1 ebikes to co-exist with other MTBs is a reasonable rule and punishing those who are found to be breaking that rule is reasonable too. People are allowed to buy fast cars and to modify them to be even faster, the same with motorcycles, but the law comes down like a ton of bricks for excessive speed, reckless driving and street racing. 

So what is different here besides hurt feelings and elitist impulses to exclude those who didn't expend some arbitrary minimum number of calories to "earn access"?


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Easy the difference is they currently are classified as motorized no amount of equivocating or liguistical jujutsu with or without logically grounded debate changes that fact. 

There is no hate, check before ride, ride legal (even if that means sticking to the thousands of miles of OHV trail available to you.

Nothing elitist about promoting stewardship of our public lands by showing good behavior and restraint. Funnel half the energy you've exhausted with us on advocacy as simple contacting CA state parks and making a map of legal Emtb trails to promote inclusivity.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> I just had to reply to this!
> 
> What if some people dont care about any of the competitive aspects of biking? As in: they have no idea what a "century" is and cleaning and watts means vacuuming the living room! It sure seems that the folks who are buying these bikes and riding them to visit our great open spaces are very unlikely to be wearing those silly Lycra suits when they do so. So much of the opposition to ebikes is from "athletes" whose feelings are hurt by being passed by the "undeserving" in what were previously their "private" places. Are they unable to see how rediculous they sound?
> 
> ...


Why do people keep brining cars into the equation. There's A MASSIVE DIFFERENCE.

1st: people don't have to lobby and build roads for free by donating their time.

2nd: trail systems are designed to give the public access to natural wilderness with MINIMAL impact.

#1 is a part in 100% (if not the total amount of a trail system) of trail systems.

Number 2 plays a part in some of road building but what, maybe 1%. However its a major consideration in 100% of trail systems (not talking parks or DH areas at ski resorts etc, referring to actual trail systems)

And finally cars are MOTORIZED vehicles, bicycle are not. Trails specify no motorized vehicles and no matter WHAT WAY you look at it or how the ebike is built, IT STILL HAS A MOTOR.

That said, simple low powered pedal assist I see no issue with (I agree some elitests are getting butt hurt over it and need to pull the tampon out before they explode) as it gives people access to remote areas that may otherwise be inaccessible to them. No harm done. But if your barely pedalling, not breathing hard or sweating while passing riders go up a hill, your bike is over powered. Pedal assist should be nothing more than just that. A bit of help but you still have to work for your ride.

If by odd chance I ever see an ebike around me you can bet I'll be watching it carefully. Quite easy to spot one that's been modified. At which point the local rangers are quite easy to reach and respond quickly.

But if I see someone who has some condition ( besides being fat and lazy) using one to enjoy our trails, can bet I'll treat them just the same as any other user and talk bikes just like I would any other rider. As long as they are good people with proper trail etiquette and their to enjoy the trails/nature without tearing things up (while getting some form of exercise) I'm happy for them. They are able to enjoy the same things we do.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> That's not the way we do things in America, we make reasonable rules and we punish violators of those rules. Allowing Class 1 ebikes to co-exist with other MTBs is a reasonable rule and punishing those who are found to be breaking that rule is reasonable too.


It's a reasonable rule in your opinion, not everyone shares that opinion and your interpretation, since it's also been pointed out that the CA regs, which created the Class 1 classification, aren't referring to off road single track. Which, if it has historically been non motorized, most people would prefer to keep non motorized. It's public land, everyone has a right visit it, however I don't think it unreasonable for the land manager to restrict specific uses to preserve and protect it for future generations and to reduce user conflicts. It's their call in the end.

As always, when you and others bring up the "allow the legal motors and punish the illegal motors", I come back with "how?"

Motors of varying power levels look exactly the same to the untrained eye. Here is a fatbike, 350W efatbike and a 4000W efatbike. It's a pop quiz, who can tell me which is which? 

I'll give you a hint, the bicycle doesn't have a kickstand.....





















There's no money to create an e-bike inspection brigade, outside of probably Marin county, no land manager would ever concieve of trying to inspect all bikes. As you well know, the regs are fuzzy enough that you consider your 1000W motor legal since you run it at PAS1, and who would know any different if you didn't?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Mabey we could get the same people that check n see if you paid for a trail pass and the same ones that n force one way on the trail? Or if a downhill rider gives right away to an uphill rider? Or the morons who cut the trail too! Lets not forget the fast riders that skid all over the place there's no inspection or brigade for that !! lol all too funny


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

rider95 said:


> Mabey we could get the same people that check n see if you paid for a trail pass and the same ones that n force one way on the trail? Or if a downhill rider gives right away to an uphill rider? Or the morons who cut the trail too! Lets not forget the fast riders that skid all over the place there's no inspection or brigade for that !! lol all too funny


Again, please explain how others bad behavior is an excuse for your bad behavior. You perceive no issue with ebikes, other perceive it differently but they are currently regulated as motorized. You wishing it wasn't so changes nothing.

How hard is it to verify the area you want to ride is legal for your ebike and if not working to make it so. Change the laws go for it! Civil disobedience works too, but please show enough presence of mind to acknowledge and embrace your outlaw stance.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> Mabey we could get the same people that check n see if you paid for a trail pass and the same ones that n force one way on the trail? Or if a downhill rider gives right away to an uphill rider? Or the morons who cut the trail too! Lets not forget the fast riders that skid all over the place there's no inspection or brigade for that !! lol all too funny


In almost 30 years of mtb riding, I've never seen "the same people" ever check for anything. I've never seen a ranger stop a rider for any behavior. Are they aware of bad behavior? Sure. Can and do they enforce it? No.

Since the regs are only about equipment, my post was in response to that.

Just like the mtb community, the ebike community will have to be the ones that police their own behavior.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

PinoyMTBer said:


> E-Bikers in California
> 
> California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles. These outdated signs were meant for motorcycles and ATVs. Plus they were put up before this new law was signed and made LAW.
> 
> ...


Damn straight! I'll just wave that California law at the rangers here in Washington State and tell them to stick it.

That will show them!


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## spinningmagnets (Jun 17, 2014)

There is a company that is developing trails for ebikes on private land, by showing owners that it can be a profitable B&B weekend retreat for all the fat and lazy city-dwellers who have lots of money to spend. The main ebike they used as a demonstrator was Kranked - Ride Hard Ride Free

edit: found them: Ecobike ADV - Guided E-Bike Adventures » A wonderful website.

Also, as far as lobbying politicians for changes to rules and laws, Bosch is leading the way when it comes to lobbying in North America


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Actually it is the Accell Group who is leading the charge for mtb access via Larry Pizzi who is their SR VP of "specialty marketing" here in the U.S.. If you want someone to ***** to I would suggest going to him. 

Bosch is in the game also along with many of the largest bicycle marketers (I hesitate to say manufacturers because they don't actually do that) in the world. If they were smart they would quit fanning the flames and put e mtb access to trails on hold and focus on e bikes as commuters and load haulers and general use on the existing road network where they can do the most good.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Velocipedist said:


> Again, please explain how others bad behavior is an excuse for your bad behavior. You perceive no issue with ebikes, other perceive it differently but they are currently regulated as motorized. You wishing it wasn't so changes nothing.
> 
> How hard is it to verify the area you want to ride is legal for your ebike and if not working to make it so. Change the laws go for it! Civil disobedience works too, but please show enough presence of mind to acknowledge and embrace your outlaw stance.


 Please explain how the constantly mentioned bad behavior by the outlaw MTB community does not result in a total ban of all MTBs, but the potential and currently undemonstrated bad behavior of ebikes is grounds for a total ban? You all use the possibility of trail damage by illegal ebikes as grounds for total opposition when none of you have ever observed that to have happened. If it had we would have heard all about it by now.

And yet the well reported activities of illegal trail builders and DHers bombing down multiuser trails are considered to be simply part and parcel of the MTB community here on this forum. Something that we should never associate with all the other MTBers who don't break laws and rules, unlike ebike which should be barred forever just in case somebody might someday be in violation..... Sheer hypocrisy!!


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

The only hypocrisy is yours as you fail to see impact of ebikes has nothing to do with this disscusion. They are already classified as motorized in regards to the federal authority that is actually germane to this conversation the Forest Service, and I have yet to see you justify why others bad behavior makes your bad behavior somehow lawful. Your beef should be with updating the TMR, not saying all of us condone illegal trail building and some how equating that to righteous indignation to against all mtbers.

Sheesh, pot kettle black to you sir.


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## mrfat (Jan 21, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> Please explain how the constantly mentioned bad behavior by the outlaw MTB community does not result in a total ban of all MTBs, but the potential and currently undemonstrated bad behavior of ebikes is grounds for a total ban? You all use the possibility of trail damage by illegal ebikes as grounds for total opposition when none of you have ever observed that to have happened. If it had we would have heard all about it by now.
> 
> And yet the well reported activities of illegal trail builders and DHers bombing down multiuser trails are considered to be simply part and parcel of the MTB community here on this forum. Something that we should never associate with all the other MTBers who don't break laws and rules, unlike ebike which should be barred forever just in case somebody might someday be in violation..... Sheer hypocrisy!!


I agree it's unfair to blame the technology as it's all in how someone uses that technology either to good or bad end. But it does more easily enable people to act in an irresponsible manner and also enables more people to do so.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Velocipedist said:


> The only hypocrisy is yours as you fail to see impact of ebikes has nothing to do with this disscusion. They are already classified as motorized in regards to the federal authority that is actually germane to this conversation the Forest Service, and I have yet to see you justify why others bad behavior makes your bad behavior somehow lawful. Your beef should be with updating the TMR, not saying all of us condone illegal trail building and some how equating that to righteous indignation to against all mtbers.
> 
> Sheesh, pot kettle black to you sir.


 What bad behavior? I live in CA and ride trails and singletrack that permit Class 1 ebikes on a Class 1 ebike? Where's the bad.......?

Hypocrisy is holding others to a standard that one is unwilling to hold ones self to. Something that lots and lots of posters here feel very comfortable doing as far as ebikes go. These forums are filled with praise and excuses for the outlaw element among MTBers with the rest of the community asking not to be tarred by the actual real world actions of that very same element. And at the same time the very same people who ask the rest of us to excuse the very real bad behavior of a minority of their sport, want to keep low power ebikes off of "their" trails on the future possibility that a minority of ebikes might someday violate the rules like that minority of MTBers do today.

Actual real problems are excused as not being representative of all MTBers, but imaginary potential problems that have yet to happen except in the overheated imaginations of a few are considered to be grounds for total opposition to all ebikers. If that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what is.


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

The Hypocrisy is that you do not have access, unless you know those areas specifically allow it and I have done nothing but advocate for ebikers like yourself that do avail themselves of the currently legal options for ebikes.

This entire discussion has at is central issue the fact that speaking for myself I am more than happy to call out the illegal mountain biker, but you seem unwilling or unable to distance yourself from the same group of ebikers that claim access to trails they do not have access to yet, and from the general tone of your posts the failure to address that fact makes you complicit if you intend to take the high road as the model ebiker (which I commend as someone in California at ground zero you have that ability) but silently ignoring other ebikers on here that are blatantly breaking the rules makes you complicit in their actual bad behavior not perceived or potential the actual behavior of posters like Rider95.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Once again I don't ride BLM land many places that were off limts to e bikes are now legal with more and more parks , trails becoming or not posted at all and no one cares . And velocipedist didn't Cal pass a e bike law?? so what is my bad behavior?? I am not acting like you


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

So this isnt you on another forum advocating breaking the laws because you don't perceive your ebike as motorized:

*
Quote Originally Posted by rider95*
I am not a lawyer , You want to ride a bike/ppl path that *clearly states no motorized (anything) short answer yes you will be breaking the law , the sad truth is all e bikes break the law* sometimes some were because E bikes are not understood . I travel around the mid and southeast riding the best trails I can find and every were I ride I am breaking the rules sometimes the law , the chances you will get caught are next to none with your bike few if any will know it's elec just peddle don,t go zooming around not peddling and you will be fine .

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73176&p=1105354#p1105354

Furthermore not posted does not mean legal to ride and no one caring only matters only if that person has the authority to explicitly allow all ebikes on the non motorized trails in question. The California law only vehicle code which has zero impact to the current discussion in regards to ebikes legally riding non motorized trails. Argue all you want it doesn't change current regulation and naively assuming state and local land managers don't look to federal rules for guidelines for dealing with newer issues they have yet to create rules for is being obtuse.

So feel free to prove me wrong by posting up the areas where you ride legally. Anything less than a publicly available policy stating ebikes access rights to all leaves you as the poaching elitist.



rider95 said:


> Once again I don't ride BLM land many places that were off limts to e bikes are now legal with more and more parks , trails becoming or not posted at all and no one cares . And velocipedist didn't Cal pass a e bike law?? so what is my bad behavior?? I am not acting like you


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

OMG! You guys are still going at it? It's quite entertaining actually...There's a handful of you that just argues about the same thing over and over again. You guys should just agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

You guys actually have more in common than you think, you all love to ride! So grab that bike of yours and RIDE!


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

PinoyMTBer said:


> OMG! You guys are still going at it? It's quite entertaining actually...There's a handful of you that just argues about the same thing over and over again. You guys should just agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
> 
> You guys actually have more in common than you think, you all love to ride! So grab that bike of yours and RIDE!


 As soon as my orthopedist clears me, that's what I intend to do..... Going on two months of enforced idleness now, old bones heal slowly. It's frustrating to have built another new ebike and not to be able to ride it!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Its raining here so I went by the trail head and omg people are riding I will wait I guess its the bike path take my Growler and get filled , sure hope the trail doesn't get cut up too bad .


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

I could see downhill resorts renting out eMTBs as an alternative to running shuttles.
If I were that marketing veep, I'd be making the rounds of those places offering them some sweet deals.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

rider95 said:


> SteveF I ride FT custer park a really cool place to ride I am up there every 4 of july weekend when I come up for RED Bud . Mabey you could show this old handicap rider around ?? lol . J B a e bike under 2.5 is by law a bicycle that's why E bikes are now allowed on bike paths, this means 3000w and up are not I know this is hard for some of you . You would much rather be a chicken little the sky is falling with e bikes! there is room for low power e bikes and they are nothing to fear .


The DNR overseas all State Recreation areas including Fort Custer. They group E-assist bikes with motorized vehicles, without regard to their power output. A motor is a motor, period. So you are not allowed to legally ride your E-bike there.

Michigan Legislature - Section 257.32b

I have a riding buddy that's in his 70's and he loves to ride trails. He has heart issues that make it very difficult for him and he won't be able to do it much longer. Might in fact not be able to again. I asked him if he'd thought about E-bikes. "Hell no, if I can't pedal them anymore, I won't ride trails anymore, period." He has 100 times the class of self-entitled rule breakers like you-I hope to grow old as gracefully. At 53, I can see that day coming when I, too will have to walk away from the sport I love.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

My concern has nothing to do with e-bike being "cheating", or with them wrecking trails, etc. I don't see either of those things as a problem. 

The problem is that if you make an activity easier, you'll get more people doing it. I might sound like a snob here but i WANT steep rough trails to be uncrowded because most people don't want to put in the work. I don't want to see dozens of people when I'm 20 miles in the backcountry. I want the lazy people somewhere else (chairlift at the ski resort?), not long rides that feel like a trip to the mall. 

I guess in an ideal scenario we'd just see more trails built to accommodate more riders (of both assist bikes and non-assist). I fear that instead we'll get a huge crop of relatively unsophisticated people who would otherwise be deterred by the effort needed to climb all those tight switchbacks running amok. Then one thing leads to another and all bikes get banned (which I've seen happen; I used to live in Boulder - once you get to a high enough density of users, you just can't have bikes on the trails anymore). 

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but I have to say at this point I'm pretty firmly against e-bikes on any sort of singletrack. I'd love to see them become popular for commuting and road/dirt road/ATV trail use.

-Walt


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Walt said:


> My concern has nothing to do with e-bike being "cheating", or with them wrecking trails, etc. I don't see either of those things as a problem.
> 
> The problem is that if you make an activity easier, you'll get more people doing it. I might sound like a snob here but i WANT steep rough trails to be uncrowded because most people don't want to put in the work. I don't want to see dozens of people when I'm 20 miles in the backcountry. I want the lazy people somewhere else (chairlift at the ski resort?), not long rides that feel like a trip to the mall.
> 
> ...


Walt, you sound dangerously similar to Edward Abbey right now.

Please continue. I like your ideas, and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.


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## emjayel (Apr 21, 2007)

*Parallels from motorcycling*

I have what I think is a very reasonable experience in the world of motorcycling that points out where this emtb thing could ultimately take us...and, to me, it's a serious cause for concern.

I ride motorcycles. There is a road in NorCal that is just the sweetest piece of tarmac a motorcyclist would ever want to ride. For years and years we rode it...and because it was in the middle of nowhere, we rode it at the pace we felt comfortable and safe to ride it. Furthermore, because it was remote from any main motorcycle riding populations, we didn't get to ride it a lot and only people that had really truly spent hours and hours of committed saddle time knew of its existence. So we've got a sweet road with few riders and those that are there are experienced and knowledgable enthusiasts.

Enter the Internet and the word spreads. In a matter of 1 year the road was being patrolled by helicopters and cruisers. Why? Because folks with limited experience, on cheap and very fast motorcycles (it's easy for a 20 yr old to get a motorcycle with Ferrari like speed for the price of an econobox...and it won't be long before the same is true for emtb's) were making a freeway ride beeline to the road on the weekends and using it as a race track...and getting killed and having a huge number of accidents.

This is what worries me about the ebike on trails issue. Guys ARE going to hop them up. The technology is going to turn over so rapidly that 50mph bikes will be easy to obtain. People are going to use them to gain access to trails they don't have the skills or stamina to navigate...and when they run out of juice or get hurt and have to be helped out by rescue personnel, its going to fall on the shoulders of the entire mtb community. Everyone is going to suffer the negative backlash. More policing, trail closures, dumbed down trails to make it 'safer' for the greater good of all...all of this is likely - it's something most motorcyclists can relate to and/or have seen take place.

So, if, or when, depending on who in these forums you believe, this revolution really starts to gab hold on the dirt trails, how do we manage this? Because as a motorcycle rider in Californian I get the 'you are a crazy bastard and it should be outlawed' rant all the time when it comes to splitting lanes..all because some of us can't be bothered to do it in a reasonable manner so the knee jerk reaction is 'make it illegal'. Our country is, truly, superior at that tact...and I fear for mtbikings future trails access.

Cheers,
Mike
Oakland, CA
Jamis Exile
Trek/Gary Fisher HiFi


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Because you had a bad experience with some street bikes on your fav road I fail to see how this translate to low power e bikes on reg mt bike trails . I most likely have as much if not more motorcycle exprince than anyone on here , who is asking anyone to mange anything? From all my experience it is very amusing to read some of this


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I guess there are 2 questions:

1. Will e-bikes make mountain biking more popular? I think the answer is probably yes, given that it basically means you can ride a DH/FR bike up a steep climb without just killing yourself or walking the whole time. It's not a chairlift but it's going to be MUCH easier to get up to the top of stuff with. Every trail becomes a gravity trail. Bikes with 8" of travel can be pedaled up whatever you want, etc. Would it be a good thing if every trail in your area could easily be shuttled? That's basically what we're talking about here.

2. Is mountain biking being more (maybe much more) popular a good thing? I'd say the answer here is *probably* no (go ask a surfer...) I can imagine a lot of scenarios where usage doubles, conflict results (just from sheer number of users) and trails get closed. I have a harder time imagining mountain biking becoming so much more popular with the general public that tons of new trails get built all over to deal with the demand. But I guess that's possible. 

IMO, the risks don't match the benefits. As such, I'm opposed to singletrack access for e-bikes. I could be convinced otherwise, though.

-Walt


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

rider95 said:


> Because you had a bad experience with some street bikes on your fav road I fail to see how this translate to low power e bikes on reg mt bike trails . I most likely have as much if not more motorcycle exprince than anyone on here , who is asking anyone to mange anything? From all my experience it is very amusing to read some of this


I cannot find a facepalm meme large enough for this post.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Cornfield said:


> I cannot find a facepalm meme large enough for this post.


The bad spelling is pretty amazing on it's own, the logic (or lack thereof) is definitely facepalm-worthy.

Rider95, go ask a surfer how they feel about the popularity of their sport and limited places available to do it...

-Walt


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Yeah, wait until this guy and his buddies show up.

Luke Workman interview: Petrolheads are missing the tarmac-tearing potential of electric vehicles

Oh wait, they have been here for years already. Check out: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=21&sid=2e1049b27ac4ad97f1d0fba7eee648a6

These guys poo on the stuff the manufacturers are pushing here as e mtb's that motoragically create "Uphill Flow". The bottom line is that there have been over powered e bikes riding trails here in the U.S. and around the world and no one has said boo. Not in great numbers but hooning has occurred.

Last year there was an Indiegogo campaign where a surfer dude named Sondors sold 9000 e fat bikes for $700 or so each. You have to know that at least a percentage of the investors had visions of single track in their future. There are whole sites dedicated to these bikes now and "accessory" equipment to modify them. How many of those have you seen on the trails?

I have been into small engines on bicycles since 2000 when I had my first weedwhacker on wheels that was very useful in the high country I lived in for spring speed training on the roads before the single track cleared. The primary reason I started and continued to MTB over road riding all these years was because riding on the road is, well, boring. To me anyway. It was simple, headwinds and uphills motor on and downhill and downwind the motor off. Worked best (you went the fastest both ways) to pedal along and that is where the secret lies with motorized bikes, ride them like a tandem. It made road riding fun, both dirt and pavement and better fitness ensued. I have since repeated this cycle a number of times on both ICE and e bikes and also used them to my advantage in urban environments.

When I saw those guys on that forum 7 years ago going towards e mtb's and soon after the rising popularity of e bikes in the EU starting to show interest I knew the die was cast and this day was coming. I am attending an E Bike Expo tomorrow and hope to get some face time in with some of the "players" and give them some advice, start putting more emphasis on e bike use on roads, not trails. Not expecting to get much response but it will be interesting.

And to those of you that think that there are going to be hoards of hooners out deleting trail access far and wide due to over e biking just think for a second that most of those trails will take more than a motor to conquer, skills are required. Or you go boom not far from the trail head even. I would be more worried about mtb'ers starting to think that it is a good idea instead of some newbies. Because that, if I know my bike industry trends, is probably the way it is going to go.

I predict the shuttle crowd will be the first to cross the line in visible numbers.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Sorry what does surfing have to do with any of this?? their is thousands of more places to ride mt bikes , plenty to share with other trail users . Stop being such snobs


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'll ask again: if every trail in your area was a shuttle trail (or a lift served trail), how would you feel about it? That's really the question. Should it be easy to get to the top of every trail? Or not?

If you don't see the surfing parallel in terms of overusing/popularizing a resource until it's no longer available/fun for most participants, then I give up. 

-Walt


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

rider95 said:


> Sorry what does surfing have to do with any of this?? their is thousands of more places to ride mt bikes , plenty to share with other trail users . Stop being such snobs


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Appears as though it's really easy to project all the chaos and problems that ebikes will cause from 1) promoting overcrowding of trails, 2) having them closed, 3) super-powered bikes riding rampant and 4) not getting access to areas where we've never been and IMO should never be (hikers do a lot better job of keeping the Wilderness wild than MTBers). Glad you guys are too young to have seen "The Wild One" or you'd be accusing ebikers of raping and pillaging towns too. Then, when someone tries to propose a competing idea, you just call them names. 
Personally, I don't give a crap whether they open more trails or not. There's more than enough legal places to ride my ebikes in SoCal, and they've opened up some state park areas around LA. Also, I ride my pMTB's four or five times a week to supplement the ebiking activities. However, it's going to be a hoot watching the results especially if ebikes start making penetration.
Now, you can fire away with your name calling and "expert" projections since you excel in them.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Walt if you think surfing spots are hard to find try looking for a Hanggliding spot lol , I have some video of me flying a HP AT at point of the MT UT back in the 90s my buddies were MT biking on top of the hill and I could fly over top of them reach down and slap them in the head!! The e bike will get worked out I think every one should calm down a little and give things time


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It's really a sort of Pascal's wager situation - the benefits of allowing e-bikes are pretty minor (a very tiny number of people could ride who otherwise could not, some lazy people could ride more/faster) but the potential consequences are severe (loss of trail access for everyone).

Now, the odds of that happening might be pretty low. But I put my seatbelt on when I get in my car, and wear my helmet on my bike, even though the odds are in my favor that I'll be fine. The benefits of not buckling up just aren't worth the risk. 

Given that I'd prefer to ride a great trail on a crappy bike than ride a great bike on a crappy trail (I think most people would agree with that), I just see no upside to taking this kind of gamble. 

-Walt


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bigwheel said:


> I predict the shuttle crowd will be the first to cross the line in visible numbers.


Possibly, I think there will be significant off the shelf bikes in the 500-750 range as well sold to the non-shuttling crowd. Considering that the emtb industry is in it's infancy here and the regs are already 3X what they are in Europe, that the chinese kit motors are mislabled so they can still be sold as "legal" or "legal-ish" it's a fair assumption that the power and capability of the average emtb will only increase while the price comes down.

This is from the owner of Luna Cycles, arguably one of the largest importers and suppliers of ebike kits in the US.



> I agree it is a bit misleading how the chinese rate their motors...... its true that they usually underrate their motors.
> 
> For example the bbshd is called a 1000 watt even through it is known that it is 1500 watt system.
> 
> ...


Disappointed with Cyclone 3000 - Electricbike.com Forum

The ebike forums are full of people building bikes that are over the legal limit, it's only when the bikes are pushing into full on emoto territory that you start to see some comments that it's illegal and should only be on the road, if that. Otherwise, the attitude is, be stealthy, soft pedal whenever you see someone and don't get caught.

There's plenty of threads of people buying old DH bikes and putting kits on them, they lend themselves to it perfectly. So far, the guys with the skills to ride them fast haven't shown up, but they will.


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## marcva (Apr 1, 2018)

Yeah, when I was 14 I saved up to buy a 25 mph moped to cope with the hills getting into town. My mother said no because it would go too fast and give me too much range. I channeled the money into a fast road bike with a computer and happily left my Cateye on the kitchen counter reading out the 45 mph top speed from my downhill ride home.


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## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> I had a fat dude on an e-fat "bike" blow by me as I was doing 10min intervals on my road bike in Fort Collins, CO. IIRC, it was a slight uphill grade at the time.
> 
> For reference, I am an Pro XC racer and CAT1 road racer.
> 
> I'd argue there is a cause for concern.


You are clearly not concerned about riding quickly if you are on a road bike.

Just say "No" to skinny tires. There is no legitimate reason to ride at 50 mph downhill on any bike.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

I like choices. One day an e bike, may be the only way any of us get to continue riding mountain bikes. Class 1 bikes are fantastic bikes. I met a 76 year old out on a fire road in the middle of nowhere recently on a PAS bike. We climbed some nice grades together, it was very cool to see someone of his age still able to enjoy the outdoors.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> You are clearly not concerned about riding quickly if you are on a road bike.
> 
> Just say "No" to skinny tires. There is no legitimate reason to ride at 50 mph downhill on any bike.


 Haven't hit 50, but close enough. Reason? because it's fun. Loaded bikepacking rig on a steep paved downhill. Those signs that say "6% grade next 3 miles, trucks test brakes" ya those signs. Lots of ways to get your adrenaline junkie fix.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> There is no legitimate reason to ride at 50 mph downhill on any bike.


To pass cars of course, that's plenty legit. I especially enjoy rides where I can hit 50.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Guys this thread is from 2016 and it was stupid then. Let it die.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

ALimon said:


> I like choices. One day an e bike, may be the only way any of us get to continue riding mountain bikes. Class 1 bikes are fantastic bikes. I met a 76 year old out on a fire road in the middle of nowhere recently on a PAS bike. We climbed some nice grades together, it was very cool to see someone of his age still able to enjoy the outdoors.


So, there is no other way to enjoy nature, at any age?


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

sfgiantsfan said:


> So, there is no other way to enjoy nature, at any age?


Plenty of ways to enjoy nature, but at 76, if an e bike is the only way to continue riding then more power to him.

One day you will be older and confronted with not being able to enjoy the outdoors on a bike. Then what? Are you sitting in a boat fishing? Gonna take up bird watching? Or taking advantage of technology and continuing to ride like you have for your whole life? I've been riding since I was 2, raced all over the world professionally, riding bikes Brings me the ultimate happiness, and if an ebike allows me the gift of riding til the day I die I'm all in!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

This again. Ugh. E bikes still require you to pedal. 55 here in 2 months. At 60 you just become glued to the couch and watch reruns? Not. At what ever age I would still be happy just to pedal the beach cruiser to the coffee shop checking out the hotties on the bike path.


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## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

ALimon said:


> One day you will be older and confronted with not being able to enjoy the outdoors on a bike. Then what? Are you sitting in a boat fishing? Gonna take up bird watching? Or taking advantage of technology and continuing to ride like you have for your whole life?


Mountain bikers built their own credibility, their own org and their own trail maintenance capacity. In large part the effort was to distinguish them from motos.

Are YOU volunteering to do the same thing on behalf of ebikes ( ie advocate, build trail and maintain trail?) If so kudos to you!

Most land managers regulate ebikes as motos. Are YOU volunteering to lobby them otherwise? If so kudos to you!


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

leeboh said:


> This again. Ugh. E bikes still require you to pedal. 55 here in 2 months. At 60 you just become glued to the couch and watch reruns? Not. At what ever age I would still be happy just to pedal the beach cruiser to the coffee shop checking out the hotties on the bike path.


Absolutely. The gentleman I met on the trail had a knee and hip replacement due to an idiot driver running him down on the road when he was 70. He said the pedal assist is his only option at this point. He couldn't make it 2 miles without assist. God bless that fella... I'm super happy for him.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

fillaroida said:


> Mountain bikers built their own credibility, their own org and their own trail maintenance capacity. In large part the effort was to distinguish them from motos.
> 
> Are YOU volunteering to do the same thing on behalf of ebikes ( ie advocate, build trail and maintain trail?) If so kudos to you!
> 
> Most land managers regulate ebikes as motos. Are YOU volunteering to lobby them otherwise? If so kudos to you!


To answer your questions... yes I am! eMTB will have to pave their own path just like every other group. I've volunteered hundreds of hours to trail building and trail maintenance over the years.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

I can't wait until all you irrational e-bike haters are old and crippled but still wanna feel the wind in your hair and so you're gonna have to eat humble pie just like that Niner jackass.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

tealy said:


> I can't wait until all you irrational e-bike haters are old and crippled but still wanna feel the wind in your hair and so you're gonna have to eat humble pie just like that Niner jackass.


No humble pie for me. I will buy a ebike that blows roost everywhere. But I don't need to ride it on multi-use trails.
I have owned moto's and I don't want the noise or smell anymore so a high powered electric would fit the bill. If I can't propel it myself then I want some watts. And I will stick to moto trails.
There is more than one way to enjoy the outdoors without creating conflict for others.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

tealy said:


> I can't wait until all you irrational e-bike haters are old and crippled but still wanna feel the wind in your hair and so you're gonna have to eat humble pie just like that Niner jackass.


Stick your head out the sunroof of your self-driving car?


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## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

ALimon said:


> To answer your questions... yes I am! eMTB will have to pave their own path just like every other group. I've volunteered hundreds of hours to trail building and trail maintenance over the years.


How exactly are you building ebike credibility, building an ebike org and building ebike trail maintenance capacity?

How exactly are you lobbying land managers?


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

You guys are ridiculous, did we really need another place to argue about mopeds?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

tealy said:


> I can't wait until all you irrational e-bike haters are old and crippled but still wanna feel the wind in your hair and so you're gonna have to eat humble pie just like that Niner jackass.


 Maybe they will have good brake levers by then, maybe,


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Velocipedist said:


> Nothing elitist about promoting stewardship of our public lands by showing good behavior and restraint.


Absolutely.

...as long as we're willing to hold MTBers to the exact same standards.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

aborgman said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> ...as long as we're willing to hold MTBers to the exact same standards.


Why wouldn't we? Why is there this idea that just because someone is for or against eBikes (i have seen both sides point fingers) they must hate the environment and be a bad person?

Yes, 250watt PAS eBikes can be ridden in a responsible manner and not tear up trails.

Yes, pedal only bikes can be ridden in a responsible manner and not tear up trails.

But they can both be ridden irresponsibly.

The difference is pedal bikes cannot be ridden irresponsibly uphill on blind turns, eBikes have the potential to do so. Perhaps every single person who posts about eBikes on this site is responsible and would never do that, but that does not mean it will not happen.

The only thing I know that is true is that not one person on this site can make a claim that eBikes WILL or WILL NOT get trail access shut down, all we know is time will tell based on how the user base rides them and how trail interactions end up stacking up for land mangers to observe.

To EVERYONE POSTING, try to keep this in mind when posting on this site, using absolutes in your arguments is a big sign you have a weak argument since those absolute statements cannot be verified with studies or facts. Anecdotal stories from your single view of the world is not evidence.


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## ironhippy (Nov 21, 2017)

ALimon said:


> He said the pedal assist is his only option at this point. He couldn't make it 2 miles without assist. God bless that fella... I'm super happy for him.


So what happens if his assist breaks down?

I am all for ebikes on the road/walking trails/around town, but when you get out into the woods only because your motor allowed you to, what happens if that motor breaks?

I ride with the assumption that I could very well have to walk from wherever I am. If I can't walk out, I won't ride there.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Stuff.


Why is this necro bump being kept open? We already have a 'repeat the same arguments over and over again and pretend you're saying something new' e-bike thread going in general and have had several made in the last few weeks...

The whole site is getting overrun with bullshit e-bike arguments (people on both sides are guilty) and we need a two year old thread that compares e-bikes to crack in the title?

I know this doesn't matter to anyone, but I feel my time on MTBR is getting short.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Why wouldn't we? Why is there this idea that just because someone is for or against eBikes (i have seen both sides point fingers) they must hate the environment and be a bad person?
> 
> Yes, 250watt PAS eBikes can be ridden in a responsible manner and not tear up trails.
> 
> ...


That's a great post! ........ except for the part about e bikes being riddden up hill irresponsibly. As long as you talking about a 250w PAS Bike which I believe you were, then the speed at which those bikes climb is not that much faster than a pedal bike. The real irresponsibility and danger in that scenario is the guy bombing down singletrack at speeds faster than he should, you know the guy the with bells on his bars thinking he can hit that blind corner at 35mph and everything is going to be ok? We're all guilty of descending faster than we should at times, so to be fair, let's not point the finger solely at a bike climbing a few mph faster without discussing the wreck less descender.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Why wouldn't we?


We should.

...but the collective "we" quite regularly turns a blind eye to trail poaching/riding of non-designated trails on this forum.

...and the collective "we" quite regularly glorifies lack of restraint.

...and the collective "we" quite regularly lacks restraint in promoting good stewardship of nature - including shuttling and the idea that mountain bikes belong in all wilderness areas.



Klurejr said:


> Yes, 250watt PAS eBikes can be ridden in a responsible manner and not tear up trails.
> 
> Yes, pedal only bikes can be ridden in a responsible manner and not tear up trails.
> 
> But they can both be ridden irresponsibly.


Yes - and lots of folks on these forums will call out the potential irresponsibility of eBikes, while ignoring very real existing irresponsibility of pedal only bikes.



Klurejr said:


> The difference is pedal bikes cannot be ridden irresponsibly uphill on blind turns


Of course they can. I've more than once come close to serious accidents while descending, with folks coming uphill on blind turns the wrong way on a one way trail on pedal bikes.



Klurejr said:


> The only thing I know that is true is that not one person on this site can make a claim that eBikes WILL or WILL NOT get trail access shut down,


Of course people CAN make a claim that eBikes WILL or WILL NOT get trail access shut down - it has happened numerous times in every eBike thread on the site, including this thread.

They cannot KNOW - but they absolutely CAN and DO make those claims anyway.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

aborgman said:


> Of course they can. I've more than once come close to serious accidents while descending, with folks coming uphill on blind turns the wrong way on a one way trail on pedal bikes.
> 
> .


Folks going uphill on a one way trail is a different issue than folks going uphill on a 2-way trail on an eBike at 2-3 times the speed of a pedal bike.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

TheDwayyo said:


> The whole site is getting overrun with bullshit e-bike arguments (people on both sides are guilty) and we need a two year old thread that compares e-bikes to crack in the title?
> 
> .


 ......


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Folks going uphill on a one way trail is a different issue than folks going uphill on a 2-way trail on an eBike at 2-3 times the speed of a pedal bike.


Yes... but it is still "pedal bikes" being "ridden irresponsibly uphill on blind turns".

...and you're having a bit of cognitive dissonance:

"pedal bikes *cannot *be ridden irresponsibly uphill on blind turns"

"*not one person on this site can make a claim* that eBikes WILL or WILL NOT get trail access shut down"

followed by -

"using absolutes in your arguments is a big sign you have a weak argument "


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

aborgman said:


> Yes... but it is still "pedal bikes" being "ridden irresponsibly uphill on blind turns".
> 
> ...and you're having a bit of cognitive dissonance:
> 
> ...


Arguing over minutia is weak. Go play in the moped forum.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Folks going uphill on a one way trail is a different issue than folks going uphill on a 2-way trail on an eBike at 2-3 times the speed of a pedal bike.


You're a So Cal guy, go climb up the San Juan trail on a weekend. It's a 2 way trail. Then tell me how responsible most of the guys descending are. I've seen some pretty ugly head on's on that trail. And they had nothing to do with the guy climbing up.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I'm going to post to remind folks that a lot of us bicycle riders are only asking two things of ebikers:

1) That they recognize that ebikes and bicycles are not the same thing; ebikes are not an advancement in the evolution of bicycles. Likewise, I am fine with saying ebikes are not the same as motorcycles.

2) That they willingly stand as their own user group, separate from mountain bikers rather than trying to latch on to us.

that is all.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

chazpat said:


> I'm going to post to remind folks that a lot of us bicycle riders are only asking two things of ebikers:
> 
> 1) That they recognize that ebikes and bicycles are not the same thing; ebikes are not an advancement in the evolution of bicycles. Likewise, I am fine with saying ebikes are not the same as motorcycles.
> 
> ...


Every e bike thread should get this, or similar, added as the last post and closed.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

ALimon said:


> You're a So Cal guy, go climb up the San Juan trail on a weekend. It's a 2 way trail. Then tell me how responsible most of the guys descending are. I've seen some pretty ugly head on's on that trail. And they had nothing to do with the guy climbing up.


Now increase the speed of the climber by 3 and imagine how ugly it can get.


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## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

The silence is deafening.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

aborgman said:


> Yes... but it is still "pedal bikes" being "ridden irresponsibly uphill on blind turns".
> 
> ...and you're having a bit of cognitive dissonance:
> 
> ...


Perhaps you missed the part where I clarified that I was speaking about 2-way traffic trails. I was not speaking of someone riding up a downhill only trail.



ALimon said:


> You're a So Cal guy, go climb up the San Juan trail on a weekend. It's a 2 way trail. Then tell me how responsible most of the guys descending are. I've seen some pretty ugly head on's on that trail. And they had nothing to do with the guy climbing up.


Good point, and now add to that mix a eBike climbing the San Juan trail and 2-3 times the speed of a pedal bike and the odds of more bad interactions has gone up. That is a perfect example of a trail that has some sharp blind corners where increased closing speed has the potential to create more user conflicts. I have ridden that trail a number of times and never had a bad experience myself, but I can certainly see it happening during a busy weekend.

San Juan trail is probably a good candidate for an eBike ban.

That said, the trails I ride weekly have almost no blind corners on them and an eBike would pose much less of a threat to safety there.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

TheDwayyo said:


> Every e bike thread should get this, or similar, added as the last post and closed.


You do know you don't have to participate in e bike discussions? Imagine if every topic went that way.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Perhaps you missed the part where I clarified that I was speaking about 2-way traffic trails. I was not speaking of someone riding up a downhill only trail.
> 
> Good point, and now add to that mix a eBike climbing the San Juan trail and 2-3 times the speed of a pedal bike and the odds of more bad interactions has gone up. That is a perfect example of a trail that has some sharp blind corners where increased closing speed has the potential to create more user conflicts. I have ridden that trail a number of times and never had a bad experience myself, but I can certainly see it happening during a busy weekend.
> 
> ...


Let's say ebikes climb twice as fast, and pedal bikes are descending 5 times faster than they should. So who exactly is responsible for the faster closing speeds? You seem quick to blame the ebike when in fact it's the pedal bike who's responsible for faster closing speeds.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

Europe has been through this and there are like no issues.

What do you e-bikers have to say about that?


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

ALimon said:


> Let's say ebikes climb twice as fast, and pedal bikes are descending 5 times faster than they should. So who exactly is responsible for the faster closing speeds? You seem quick to blame the ebike when in fact it's the pedal bike who's responsible for faster closing speeds.


So if I'm going dh 5 times faster than I should be... Let's see, the fastest I've ever gone is 41 on a two lane wide fire road at a bike park. Are you saying a dher going down two lane wide roads should do a max of 8.1 miles an hour? On single track my highest speed is 25 and my average downhill speed is 12 - 15ish. So then my max speed should be 5 and average 2.4 miles per hour?

My point is no one going dh is doing 5 times what a safe speed would be. Most of the crazies aren't even doing 1.5 times a safe speed.

The issue is that now the uphill traffic could be moving 3 times faster (since they only have the safe speed consideration, not human limitations), so now closing speeds have increased 50 percent, and the trail wasn't designed for that, not is it the current expectation. If that 50 percent increase in closing speed makes the trail unsafe, how do we manage that? A max speed limit for everyone? Uphill and downhill speed limits? Redesigned trails? How is that paid for? Enforced? Managed? And who should bear the burden of those costs?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ALimon said:


> Let's say ebikes climb twice as fast, and pedal bikes are descending 5 times faster than they should. So who exactly is responsible for the faster closing speeds? You seem quick to blame the ebike when in fact it's the pedal bike who's responsible for faster closing speeds.


At this point e-bikes are not the norm, they are not expected to be there. Many times they aren't even supposed to be there. It's the unexpected that usually results in issues. Why would we exacerbate the problem by adding faster uphill riders? I'd also add that many trails have in fact been lost because of the excessive speed of downhill riders, don't expect that faster uphill speeds will yield different results either. While this tends to be a mountain biker vs. e-bike issue in the internets, out in meatspace it's hikers, runners, equestrians and just casual users in addition to mountain bikers and we're already starting to see push back from many users about e-bikes. It ain't going to get better and the endless theories and what if's and how comes isn't going to affect anything access related. Argue all you want to (both sides) but it's boots on the ground that really affect many of the decisions that land managers are having to make, and they generally take path of least resistance. IMHO, the e-bike market is still born unless e-bikers start advocating for themselves, start planning and getting permission to build trails and stop demanding access "because", because isn't a reason.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

This would only happen in the minds of paranoid American mountain bikers, but if e-bikers really got all the nice mtb trails shut down, I don't think that would be a bad thing. 

We would have to go back to the days when we were badass and only had logging roads and atv trails to ride, which I thought was waaaaay more fun that this sanitized single track / flow trail bullshit that dominates these days. 

Make MTB exploratory again.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

tealy said:


> This would only happen in the minds of paranoid American mountain bikers, but if e-bikers really got all the nice mtb trails shut down, I don't think that would be a bad thing.
> 
> We would have to go back to the days when we were badass and only had logging roads and atv trails to ride, which I thought was waaaaay more fun that this sanitized single track / flow trail bullshit that dominates these days.
> 
> Make MTB exploratory again.


"we" were never badass. We take part in an activity that most people don't even know exists. And I'm pretty sure that on the badass scale you fall somewhere between ass and all ass.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

I disagree. 

Bombing down a mountain on a rigid bike with cantilever brakes is badass.

Riding XC flow trails on an enduro bike is like ... sad.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

tealy said:


> This would only happen in the minds of paranoid American mountain bikers, but if e-bikers really got all the nice mtb trails shut down, I don't think that would be a bad thing.
> 
> We would have to go back to the days when we were badass and only had logging roads and atv trails to ride, which I thought was waaaaay more fun that this sanitized single track / flow trail bullshit that dominates these days.
> 
> Make MTB exploratory again.


What do you think is wrong with you? Have you ever been to a professional?


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

tealy said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Bombing down a mountain on a rigid bike with cantilever brakes is badass.
> 
> Riding XC flow trails on an enduro bike is like ... sad.


And when we discovered mountain biking we tried to get everyone who would listen to come out and enjoy the fun. Look where it got us, very busy, sanitized trails.
What are the ebikers going to do when they have convinced the masses to join the fun. And face assist cycling is easier and appeals to more people. There will be mayhem in the wilderness.
Maybe you should keep your new sport a secret.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

IPunchCholla said:


> So if I'm going dh 5 times faster than I should be... Let's see, the fastest I've ever gone is 41 on a two lane wide fire road at a bike park. Are you saying a dher going down two lane wide roads should do a max of 8.1 miles an hour? On single track my highest speed is 25 and my average downhill speed is 12 - 15ish. So then my max speed should be 5 and average 2.4 miles per hour?
> 
> My point is no one going dh is doing 5 times what a safe speed would be. Most of the crazies aren't even doing 1.5 times a safe speed.
> 
> ...


The basic speed law when driving a car is, you drive at a safe speed based on the road conditions regardless of the posted speed limit. Same should apply when riding trails. I can't tell you how fast you should be riding down two way trails. I say ride as fast as you wish as long as you can safely slow/stop without running people over. It really doesn't matter how fast someone climbs if the guy coming down hauling the mail can't stop his bike. I could be at a stand still and it wouldn't matter. So climbing speed is a little over rated considering a climber can stop on a dime. Descenders not so much.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

tealy said:


> We would have to go back to the days when we were badass and only had logging roads and atv trails to ride, which I thought was waaaaay more fun that this sanitized single track / flow trail bullshit that dominates these days.
> 
> Make MTB exploratory again.





tealy said:


> Bombing down a mountain on a rigid bike with cantilever brakes is badass.
> 
> Riding XC flow trails on an enduro bike is like ... sad.


So what's stopping you from bombing logging roads and atv trails on a rigid bike with cantilever brakes? Pretty sure you're allowed to do that if you want. My CX had cantis but I changed them to mini Vs. Am I half-assed (probably)?

Weren't you complaining about how air shocks weren't as smooth as coil shocks and a lack of refinement in your disc brake system (those levers)?


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

ALimon said:


> The basic speed law when driving a car is, you drive at a safe speed based on the road conditions regardless of the posted speed limit. Same should apply when riding trails. I can't tell you how fast you should be riding down two way trails. I say ride as fast as you wish as long as you can safely slow/stop without running people over. It really doesn't matter how fast someone climbs if the guy coming down hauling the mail can't stop his bike. I could be at a stand still and it wouldn't matter. So climbing speed is a little over rated considering a climber can stop on a dime. Descenders not so much.


And my point is there is a difference in perceived trail conditions based on the speed of oncoming traffic and ebikes change that equation and that is the root cause if much of the issue. Closing speed effects safe stopping distance.

My trails are moto legal. If I'm going downhill and I hear a motorcycle. I'll show down or stop because I know that safe speed has changed. Usually I'll just stop and wait till they pass because I want to go faster than what is safe with approaching motos (but still safe for other trail users). Now there are bikes that can match those closing speeds without any sounds letting me know they are approaching, not even hub ratchet. So there simple presence means I have to change my behavior.

Really, I don't care about ebikes one way or the other, but the pro ebikers claiming they are just like all other bikes and cause no issues poss me off. Particularly when they make absurd claims about my behavior.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

IPunchCholla said:


> And my point is there is a difference in perceived trail conditions based on the speed of oncoming traffic and ebikes change that equation and that is the root cause if much of the issue. Closing speed effects safe stopping distance.
> 
> My trails are moto legal. If I'm going downhill and I hear a motorcycle. I'll show down or stop because I know that safe speed has changed. Usually I'll just stop and wait till they pass because I want to go faster than what is safe with approaching motos (but still safe for other trail users). Now there are bikes that can match those closing speeds without any sounds letting me know they are approaching, not even hub ratchet. So there simple presence means I have to change my behavior.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind when I use the word ebike I'm referring to a class 1 250w pas bike, which in my opinion ride similar speeds to a pedal bike. Anything other than that has no place sharing trails with other bikers n hikers.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

All these pro-ebike arguments are BS.

It has a motor. That makes it motorized, thus illegal on non-motorized trails. How do you get around that?

Where I live, they won't even let you bring a chainsaw in to clear trails of deadfall because it has a motor. Why would they let someone pedal a motor in?

On the other hand, there are plenty of areas that allow motorized vehicles, and you're free to take your e-bike to town on those. I don't see why e-bikes shouldn't be lumped in with other motorized bikes.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

IPunchCholla said:


> A max speed limit for everyone?


If a trail currently has issues with accidents between uphill and downhill riders (completely absent e-Bikes) - then a speed limit is necessary, and downhill riders should get no speed preference over uphill riders. The speed limit should be the same for both.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

ALimon said:


> Keep in mind when I use the word ebike I'm referring to a class 1 250w pas bike, which in my opinion ride similar speeds to a pedal bike.


I am sure that works great in your head, but you should keep in mind that everyone else here lives in the real world where an ebike can have up to 750w with a throttle and max speed of 28mph and still be considered an ebike. So when you say "ebike" everyone else is thinking something that can have a max 750w motor and the possibility of a throttle, regardless of what you think an ebike should be.

Maybe you should start a thread for 250w and under ebikes only?


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

ALimon said:


> Keep in mind when I use the word ebike I'm referring to a class 1 250w pas bike, which in my opinion ride similar speeds to a pedal bike. Anything other than that has no place sharing trails with other bikers n hikers.


But class 1 in the US is 750 Watt, 20mph cutoff. Big difference. If it was kept at the Euro standard then there would be far, far less pushback.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

aborgman said:


> If a trail currently has issues with accidents between uphill and downhill riders (completely absent e-Bikes) - then a speed limit is necessary, and downhill riders should get no speed preference over uphill riders. The speed limit should be the same for both.


Sure, but I'm referencing the situation we have now. Relatively safe and conflict free trails whose basic riding condition is being changed by the introduction of something that makes current safe practice possibly unsafe. Why should everyone change for the new user? How is that fair?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

kpdemello said:


> All these pro-ebike arguments are BS.
> 
> It has a motor. That makes it motorized, thus illegal on non-motorized trails. How do you get around that?
> 
> ...


What's funny is I've never seen an ebike on the motorized trails I ride. And I ride them allot. And do trail work on them. The trails were made by mountain bikers, for mountain bikers, so when though they are motor legal, you don't see a ton of dirt bikes on them. Probably too twisty.

But it kinda seems like the perfect case for an ebike. Close into town. Motorized legal. Tight twisty single track with lots of climbing and many miles of trails. But I've not seen a single one. And there are almost none in the stores.

It could be the culture here being against them. But I wonder if ebikes are just a way to get motorized bikes onto unmotorized trails, since as soon as the trails are motor legal, riders who want a motor just buy a proper dirt bike.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

kpdemello said:


> All these pro-ebike arguments are BS.
> 
> It has a motor. That makes it motorized, thus illegal on non-motorized trails. How do you get around that?
> 
> ...


This ^

This should never have been a discussion in the first place. These trail condition arguments are just bait, they have motors, end of story.


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

Up until about a week ago I hated the thought of an ebike on my trails, but after meeting a 65 year old retired vet with 1 lung on the trail and seeing how much fun he was having doing something he would not be able to do otherwise. They have a their place, but their place should be regulated and governed however. 

The bike community and manufactures need to reach some sort of specs on what is excetable and what is not for the sustainability of trails. Not doing this, is watering the tree that will eventually hang you.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

IPunchCholla said:


> Sure, but I'm referencing the situation we have now. Relatively safe and conflict free trails whose basic riding condition is being changed by the introduction of something that makes current safe practice possibly unsafe.
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


"Relatively safe and conflict free trails"

I'd say IME that most trails that are likely to have blind corner problems with eBikes in the future AREN'T relatively safe and conflict free trails now.

...and whose basic riding condition MAY be changed by the introduction of something that MAY make current unsafe practice possibly MORE unsafe.



IPunchCholla said:


> Why should everyone change for the new user? How is that fair?


Life isn't fair.... and I'm all for eBike advocates fighting their own battles for access - but I see a lot of hypocrisy on the MTB side:

MTB folks not coming down on MTB poaching trails and riding crazy, but super concerned about the potential for eBikes to do so.

MTB folks discussing the horror of eBike access to their trails, while dismissing concerns from hikers/equestrians about MTB access to their trails.

I'm not an eBike advocate, I've never ridden an eBike, and I don't have much interest in them - but I am a fan of logical consistency, lack of hypocrisy, and lack of greed... and the arguments coming from MTBers remind me of:


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

tahoebeau said:


> I am sure that works great in your head, but you should keep in mind that everyone else here lives in the real world where an ebike can have up to 750w with a throttle and max speed of 28mph and still be considered an ebike. So when you say "ebike" everyone else is thinking something that can have a max 750w motor and the possibility of a throttle, regardless of what you think an ebike should be.
> 
> Maybe you should start a thread for 250w and under ebikes only?


Actually I think that's a good idea. I just looked up the watts on a specialized levo and it said 530 watts. I thought it was 250. That is the bike I rode and found Its power output just right. I never felt like it was much faster than a pedal bike or would be a problem on multi use trails. Bikes like the Levo, PAS are well thought out and do need their own threads. Too often they are confused with high powered ebikes with throttles.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

ALimon said:


> Too often they are confused with high powered ebikes with throttles.


Which would imply the opposite will happen as well.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

aborgman said:


> "Relatively safe and conflict free trails"
> 
> I'd say IME that most trails that are likely to have blind corner problems with eBikes in the future AREN'T relatively safe and conflict free trails now.
> 
> ...


Sure. Which is why I said I don't care about them one way or the other. I would support introduction of class 1 to multi user single track (selectively at first in a trial basis to see what happens). I don't like banning something proactively. We should find out what, if any the actual issues are and adjust rules along the way. Or ban if it is untenable, but they should be given a shot. I just dislike many of the arguments put forth by ebike advocates. Especially the it's not a motor and the it's exactly the same arguments. They are motors and they are different. Let's figure out a way to make that work.

And, I was here first and it is mine! is actually the basis of almost all private land claims in the US. Unless you're indigenous, you either claim staked it. Or are the latest in a chain of purchases from someone who did. On public lands each new user group needs to argue why their presence should be allowed and under what conditions because the other users were there first and have stake holder's rights to some degree.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## karmaphi (Mar 19, 2018)

Road bikers could learn a thing or two from this thread and their issues with sharing with motorized vehicles... *sarcasm*


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## paxy (Apr 6, 2012)

I have a new motto for everyone. Be law abiding where ever you are riding. That is all


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

paxy said:


> I have a new motto for everyone. Be law abiding where ever you are riding. That is all
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you sure about that? That means no more speeding on the highway.


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## paxy (Apr 6, 2012)

ALimon said:


> Are you sure about that? That means no more speeding on the highway.


In pretty sure I'm not part of the everyone group 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Just saw this on Ebay.......

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Santa-cruz-V10-Electric/253637163000?hash=item3b0df3f7f8:g:19sAAOSw7UJbAm2q


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mtnbikej said:


> Just saw this on Ebay.......
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Santa-cruz-V10-Electric/253637163000?hash=item3b0df3f7f8:g:19sAAOSw7UJbAm2q


I just threw up.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ALimon said:


> I just looked up the watts on a specialized levo and it said 530 watts.


250w nominal=530w peak. A 750w Class 1/2/3 ebike peaks at north of 1500w. If you're going to advocate for Class 1 ebikes, you should really know what you are advocating for.


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

mtnbikej said:


> Just saw this on Ebay.......
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Santa-cruz-V10-Electric/253637163000?hash=item3b0df3f7f8:g:19sAAOSw7UJbAm2q


Light weight dirt bike where you pretend to pedal. Uphill at 35 mph on a slow day...


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

mtnbikej said:


> Just saw this on Ebay.......
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Santa-cruz-V10-Electric/253637163000?hash=item3b0df3f7f8:g:19sAAOSw7UJbAm2q


Had to rethink and run this through a calculator: 4.62 Horsepower e bike. Definitely not a motorbike, SMH...


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

ALimon said:


> Actually I think that's a good idea. I just looked up the watts on a specialized levo and it said 530 watts. I thought it was 250.


I don't think you did, and you should look it up.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/m...arbon-6fattie-29/p/129120?color=240256-129120



> MOTOR	Specialized 1.3, custom Rx Trail-tuned motor, 250W Nominal


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

richde said:


> I don't think you did, and you should look it up.
> 
> https://www.specialized.com/us/en/m...arbon-6fattie-29/p/129120?color=240256-129120





> MOTOR Specialized 1.3, custom Rx Trail-tuned motor, 250W Nominal


I can get someone to wind a motor and rate it at 100W nominal power, but service rated for 10000W. Does that make it a 100W motor?

More ebike logic at work...


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Zowie said:


> I can get someone to wind a motor and rate it at 100W nominal power, but service rated for 10000W. Does that make it a 100W motor?
> 
> More ebike logic at work...


Luna is getting 54Kw out of a 3kw SurRon motor, sooo....


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## Guest (May 24, 2018)

I thought the two types of E-bikes were: 1. The kind you cheat during races with that annoy everybody. 2. The kind you ride on trails that annoy everybody. Still rather see one of those than anything with a chainsaw motor strapped to it.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

aborgman said:


> "Relatively safe and conflict free trails"
> 
> I'd say IME that most trails that are likely to have blind corner problems with eBikes in the future AREN'T relatively safe and conflict free trails now.
> 
> ...


 Honestly I think there is a lot of places where mountain bikes should not be allowed. And in reality you don't need a mountain bike to enjoy the outdoors either.
During our annual Moab mountain bike trip we always take at least one day to go hiking in Arches. Mountain bikes not allowed there. I wish they were but aren't. And if they allowed me I would be considerate and yield to other trail users. But think of the mayhem if they did?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

irishpitbull said:


> Up until about a week ago I hated the thought of an ebike on my trails, but after meeting a 65 year old retired vet with 1 lung on the trail and seeing how much fun he was having doing something he would not be able to do otherwise.


And why do you assume he could not have fun riding a pedal bike? Why do you assume he could not do this activity without a motor?

In 2012 I suffered an Aortic Dissection that nearly killed me. I lost a ton of strength and due to heavy blood pressure medication I have not been able to get my heart rate above 147bpm since that happened. To this day I still have a tear in my aorta that causes my bloodlfow to be augmented as it feeds my body. I was 34 at the time. I just turned 40 and still cannot get my heart rate up like many of my friends who are 10 years older than me. But I still pedal, I am last to the top, but I have a great time and can still hang with everyone on the downhills.

It drives me nuts when people make excuses like this.

I have a physical limitation, but I refuse to augment it with a motor. That would be cheating myself in my opinion.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> And why do you assume he could not have fun riding a pedal bike? Why do you assume he could not do this activity without a motor?
> 
> In 2012 I suffered an Aortic Dissection that nearly killed me. I lost a ton of strength and due to heavy blood pressure medication I have not been able to get my heart rate above 147bpm since that happened. To this day I still have a tear in my aorta that causes my bloodlfow to be augmented as it feeds my body. I was 34 at the time. I just turned 40 and still cannot get my heart rate up like many of my friends who are 10 years older than me. But I still pedal, I am last to the top, but I have a great time and can still hang with everyone on the downhills.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that. But why are you assuming he can even ride a pedal bike? It certainly isn't cheaper to ride an ebike which might be a hint to as why he's on one. Comparing injuries and disabilities is rather silly. Both of your injuries are serious, but unless your his physician, you really don't know his medical condition


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> And why do you assume he could not have fun riding a pedal bike? Why do you assume he could not do this activity without a motor?
> 
> In 2012 I suffered an Aortic Dissection that nearly killed me. I lost a ton of strength and due to heavy blood pressure medication I have not been able to get my heart rate above 147bpm since that happened. To this day I still have a tear in my aorta that causes my bloodlfow to be augmented as it feeds my body. I was 34 at the time. I just turned 40 and still cannot get my heart rate up like many of my friends who are 10 years older than me. But I still pedal, I am last to the top, but I have a great time and can still hang with everyone on the downhills.
> 
> ...


I'm not assuming, this is what I was told. His *1 lung* can't draw in enough oxygen for more than few minutes of excretion.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Harryman said:


> 250w nominal=530w peak. A 750w Class 1/2/3 ebike peaks at north of 1500w. If you're going to advocate for Class 1 ebikes, you should really know what you are advocating for.


The fact that he made a big stink about how we should only discuss class 1 e-bikes, then got caught having bad information on what a class 1 e-bike even is says it all. He doesn't even own an e-bike.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Zowie said:


> I can get someone to wind a motor and rate it at 100W nominal power, but service rated for 10000W. Does that make it a 100W motor?
> 
> More ebike logic at work...


As an electrical engineer I'll say the answer to that is "it depends".

Peak power for a motor isn't continuous power, and continuous power can vary for the exact same motor depending how you define "continuous" (duty cycle, etc.) and depending on environment and "cooling" (do you have a heatsink? What is the thermal resistance of the heatsink?, etc.).

I regularly deal with a motor for electric model airplanes that is manufactured by Maxon - who rate the motor as a 3 watt motor. The company that sells it for electric model airplanes rate the identical motor as 10 watts... because in that environment it can handle 10 watts due to the forced air cooling provided by the prop.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

ALimon said:


> Actually I think that's a good idea. I just looked up the watts on a specialized levo and it said 530 watts. I thought it was 250. That is the bike I rode and found Its power output just right. I never felt like it was much faster than a pedal bike or would be a problem on multi use trails. Bikes like the Levo, PAS are well thought out and do need their own threads. Too often they are confused with high powered ebikes with throttles.





Harryman said:


> 250w nominal=530w peak. A 750w Class 1/2/3 ebike peaks at north of 1500w. If you're going to advocate for Class 1 ebikes, you should really know what you are advocating for.





TheDwayyo said:


> The fact that he made a big stink about how we should only discuss class 1 e-bikes, then got caught having bad information on what a class 1 e-bike even is says it all. He doesn't even own an e-bike.


Ya, it just became completely appearant that one of the biggest ebike advocates on this website doesn't understand how electric motors work, at all. Which really isn't too surprising considering he believes it is easy to tell how powerful an ebike is by just looking at it.

Arguing like he has been and then seeing he doesn't know how watts are measured on an ebike shows he is here just arguing to argue. The worst part is that it takes takes only a few minute on the webs to research how ebike/electric motors work. But I guess it is more fun for ALimon to just argue whatever is controversial rather than spend a few minutes to understand what his actually arguing about.

But if he actually wants to know something about how ebike motor watts rating works, then here you go ALimon... The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

tahoebeau said:


> Ya, it just became completely appearant that one of the biggest ebike advocates on this website doesn't understand how electric motors work, at all. Which really isn't too surprising considering he believes it is easy to tell how powerful an ebike is by just looking at it.
> 
> Arguing like he has been and then seeing he doesn't know how watts are measured on an ebike shows he is here just arguing to argue. The worst part is that it takes takes only a few minute on the webs to research how ebike/electric motors work. But I guess it is more fun for ALimon to just argue whatever is controversial rather than spend a few minutes to understand what his actually arguing about.
> 
> But if he actually wants to know something about how ebike motor watts rating works, then here you go ALimon... The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com


I don't think he's just arguing to argue, I think he believes his nonsense. He's one of a large number of people these days that seem to think all opinions should be treated equally, regardless of how uninformed one might be. That's part of what irritates me so much with his posts; I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if you're full of **** don't expect me to act like your opinion matters.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> And why do you assume he could not have fun riding a pedal bike? Why do you assume he could not do this activity without a motor?
> 
> In 2012 I suffered an Aortic Dissection that nearly killed me. I lost a ton of strength and due to heavy blood pressure medication I have not been able to get my heart rate above 147bpm since that happened. To this day I still have a tear in my aorta that causes my bloodlfow to be augmented as it feeds my body. I was 34 at the time. I just turned 40 and still cannot get my heart rate up like many of my friends who are 10 years older than me. But I still pedal, I am last to the top, but I have a great time and can still hang with everyone on the downhills.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting and I applaud your tenacity. I agree 100% and find the disability excuse to be a weak one at best.


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## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

irishpitbull said:


> can't draw in enough oxygen for more than few minutes of excretion.


Sounds shitty.

Imagine being limited to just a few minutes on the toilet.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

aborgman said:


> As an electrical engineer I'll say the answer to that is "it depends".
> 
> Peak power for a motor isn't continuous power, and continuous power can vary for the exact same motor depending how you define "continuous" (duty cycle, etc.) and depending on environment and "cooling" (do you have a heatsink? What is the thermal resistance of the heatsink?, etc.).
> 
> I regularly deal with a motor for electric model airplanes that is manufactured by Maxon - who rate the motor as a 3 watt motor. The company that sells it for electric model airplanes rate the identical motor as 10 watts... because in that environment it can handle 10 watts due to the forced air cooling provided by the prop.


Thanks for the 'answer' explaining the difference between service rating and nominal rating and how motors are rated by not using either term or any definitions of said terms, and inserting your own that are not equivalent.

Hooray, interwebs!



TheDwayyo said:


> I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if you're full of **** don't expect me to act like your opinion matters.


Reductio ad absurdum...


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

fillaroida said:


> Sounds shitty.
> 
> Imagine being limited to just a few minutes on the toilet.


But just imagine the gains in personal productivity and efficiency


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Zowie said:


> Thanks for the 'answer' explaining the difference between service rating and nominal rating and how motors are rated by not using either term or any definitions of said terms, and inserting your own that are not equivalent.
> 
> Hooray, interwebs!


"Service rating" has nothing, at all, to do with electric motors.

"Service rated" has to do with switching/interconnection between a building and mains service, and is generally defined by UL/NEC with respect to the ability to sufficiently isolate mains service from internal building wiring.

"Nominal power" is merely the rated equivalent mechanical power output - with no particular set of rating conditions implied.

So... "service rating" has nothing to do with electrical motors, and "nominal power" is just a continuous power spec at some set of conditions (for which there are no standards).

The motor I mentioned above has a "nominal power" of 3 watts under the conditions the manufacturer rates the motor, and a "nominal power" of 10 watts under the conditions the reseller rates the motor... and both are accurate.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Zowie said:


> Reductio ad absurdum...


Ah, the logic professor is back at it again!

You seem to be an intelligent person, why don't you ever give your actual thoughts? I seriously wonder if you actually are an mountain biker or if you just troll every forum you can get your hands on to find logical fallacies to point out.

That said, I had to unblock you because some of your posts are hilarious. Carry on.



aborgman said:


> "Service rating" has nothing, at all, to do with electric motors.
> 
> "Service rated" has to do with switching/interconnection between a building and mains service, and is generally defined by UL/NEC with respect to the ability to sufficiently isolate mains service from internal building wiring.
> 
> ...


Eh, cut him some slack... He wasn't actually commenting on what you posted about, just critiquing your logic. That's all he ever does, but sometimes it includes some super-dry funnies.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

aborgman said:


> "Service rating" has nothing, at all, to do with electric motors.
> 
> "Service rated" has to do with switching/interconnection between a building and mains service, and is generally defined by UL/NEC with respect to the ability to sufficiently isolate mains service from internal building wiring.
> 
> ...


Since you're an EE, you should go fix these pages, they're wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_rating#Other_definitions


TheDwayyo said:


> Eh, cut him some slack... He wasn't actually commenting on what you posted about, just critiquing your logic. That's all he ever does, but sometimes it includes some super-dry funnies.


You an EE too? :thumbsup:


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Zowie said:


> Since you're an EE, you should go fix these pages, they're wrong.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_rating#Other_definitions


The discussion of service _*factor*_ (not service rating) by Wikipedia is accurate in terms of service _factor_. Of course NEMA MG 1 (the standard which generally defines service _factor_) only applies to AC motors.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

TheDwayyo said:


> The fact that he made a big stink about how we should only discuss class 1 e-bikes, then got caught having bad information on what a class 1 e-bike even is says it all. He doesn't even own an e-bike.


The specialized turbo levo, the bike I've been referring to all along is a class 1 ebike. 
And you work in a bike shop? Lol.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

ALimon said:


> The specialized turbo levo, the bike I've been referring to all along is a class 1 ebike.
> And you work in a bike shop? Lol.


Does that change the fact that you don't (or at least didn't, I'm hoping you've done some reading now) know what class 1 means? Nope.

Part time bike shop employee, part time trail builder, part time race organizer... I find your profession pretty amusing too, don't worry.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

aborgman said:


> The discussion of service _*factor*_ (not service rating) by Wikipedia is accurate in terms of service _factor_. Of course NEMA MG 1 (the standard which generally defines service _factor_) only applies to AC motors.


Thanks, I was wondering why there was so little reference of DC, but it makes sense everything easily accessible is about NEMA.

I would point out, however much fun it is debating semantics, anyone can derate an electric motor to whatever rating they want to. People tend to only bring up lawsuits when the claims are higher than actual output...


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ALimon said:


> Sorry to hear that. But why are you assuming he can even ride a pedal bike? It certainly isn't cheaper to ride an ebike which might be a hint to as why he's on one. Comparing injuries and disabilities is rather silly. Both of your injuries are serious, but unless your his physician, you really don't know his medical condition


If someone can pedal an eBike, they can pedal a bike that has no motor. Unless he was on a bike with a Throttle, then that is a different story.



irishpitbull said:


> I'm not assuming, this is what I was told. His *1 lung* can't draw in enough oxygen for more than few minutes of excretion.


I think you mean exertion, not excretion... And what that means is he cannot do it as well as when he had 2 lungs or as well as a person with 2 lungs. Perhaps that means a Doctor will give him a Handicapped placard and he has ADA access, maybe it doesn't. What it does not mean is that he is now physically unable to ride a bicycle, perhaps he cannot climb as fast as he used to... but that is a different story.

I used to be able to lift very heavy objects, but now I am not able to due to medical reasons. Sometimes ones circumstances change.
I used to be able to ride my bike at a mac 180bpm heartrate, but now my max is reduced, I can still pedal, a motor would be nice, but it is not required.

Was he saying that before he got an eBike he was physically unable to pedal any bike?


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> If someone can pedal an eBike, they can pedal a bike that has no motor. Unless he was on a bike with a Throttle, then that is a different story.
> 
> I think you mean exertion, not excretion... And what that means is he cannot do it as well as when he had 2 lungs or as well as a person with 2 lungs. Perhaps that means a Doctor will give him a Handicapped placard and he has ADA access, maybe it doesn't. What it does not mean is that he is now physically unable to ride a bicycle, perhaps he cannot climb as fast as he used to... but that is a different story.
> 
> ...


Thanks man, that auto-correct can be a *****.

Yeah he was pretty much unable to ride at all. He was on a pedal assist, no throttle. He was not going for an KOM's that's for sure.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> If someone can pedal an eBike, they can pedal a bike that has no motor. Unless he was on a bike with a Throttle, then that is a different story.
> 
> I think you mean exertion, not excretion... And what that means is he cannot do it as well as when he had 2 lungs or as well as a person with 2 lungs. Perhaps that means a Doctor will give him a Handicapped placard and he has ADA access, maybe it doesn't. What it does not mean is that he is now physically unable to ride a bicycle, perhaps he cannot climb as fast as he used to... but that is a different story.
> 
> ...


Pretty bold statement saying if someone can pedal they don't need assist. Most people using walkers can walk. Are you saying they don't need assist when walking?


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

TheDwayyo said:


> Does that change the fact that you don't (or at least didn't, I'm hoping you've done some reading now) know what class 1 means? Nope.
> 
> Part time bike shop employee, part time trail builder, part time race organizer... I find your profession pretty amusing too, don't worry.


Never said I knew everything. As far as knowing everything... I'll leave that to a bike shop employee to think they know it all. Hehe.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Zowie said:


> I would point out, however much fun it is debating semantics, anyone can derate an electric motor to whatever rating they want to. People tend to only bring up lawsuits when the claims are higher than actual output...


One can rate a motor anywhere between peak electrical power (which due to laws of thermodynamics is always greater than peak mechanical power) and basically zero - and everyone of those ratings will be completely accurate for a particular set of conditions.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

ALimon said:


> Never said I knew everything. As far as knowing everything... I'll leave that to a bike shop employee to think they know it all. Hehe.


I know enough not to throw around terms I don't understand in a debate.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

TheDwayyo said:


> I know enough not to throw around terms I don't understand in a debate.


Apparently me saying " Class 1 bikes like the Levo" about a million times never quite registered up top eh?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ALimon said:


> Apparently me saying " Class 1 bikes like the Levo" about a million times never quite registered up top eh?


So, since you realize that there isn't a sub class within Class 1 ebikes for "bikes like the levo" in the US, you must also realize your arguments for them are pointless. Management of public lands is based on what the laws allow, not an arbitrary classification created by you. You either support 750w emtbs on your trails, or you don't, that's your only choice.

If you want to lobby for new legislation limiting emtbs to 250w, or the EU standards, then great, have at it, and good luck.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

IPunchCholla said:


> So if I'm going dh 5 times faster than I should be... Let's see, the fastest I've ever gone is 41 on a two lane wide fire road at a bike park. Are you saying a dher going down two lane wide roads should do a max of 8.1 miles an hour? On single track my highest speed is 25 and my average downhill speed is 12 - 15ish. So then my max speed should be 5 and average 2.4 miles per hour?
> 
> My point is no one going dh is doing 5 times what a safe speed would be. Most of the crazies aren't even doing 1.5 times a safe speed.
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness, we have closing speeds again! Gosh forbid how many times do people get messed up on closing speeds, in reality- not hypothetically speaking? The trail will dictate. Wide open, good site lines, faster speed. Tight singletrack, slower closing speeds. This argument is beaten to death. Fear of the unknown is the fuel to the fire.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

irishpitbull said:


> Up until about a week ago I hated the thought of an ebike on my trails, but after meeting a 65 year old retired vet with 1 lung on the trail and seeing how much fun he was having doing something he would not be able to do otherwise. They have a their place, but their place should be regulated and governed however.
> 
> The bike community and manufactures need to reach some sort of specs on what is excetable and what is not for the sustainability of trails. Not doing this, is watering the tree that will eventually hang you.


Good post?


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

Gutch said:


> Oh my goodness, we have closing speeds again! Gosh forbid how many times do people get messed up on closing speeds, in reality- not hypothetically speaking? The trail will dictate. Wide open, good site lines, faster speed. Tight singletrack, slower closing speeds. This argument is beaten to death. Fear of the unknown is the fuel to the fire.


Yes. They do matter in reality. They matter to me when I ride. Basically when I hear a motorcycle coming I pull over regardless of uphill or downhill, because some of them are going way faster than I might redirect and a head on with one wouldn't be fun.

Also trails aren't one or the other, at least around here. There are a ton of corners that are soft enough but also just a bit obscured where I can be doing 15 and it is perfectly safe if done is coming the other direction climbing at 5mph (which is pretty much the max even a sitter fit cyclist would be climbing) but not at 15, which some class 1 bikes would be variable of.

So yeah, closing speed matters. Do I think it should keep class 1 of the trails? No. But advocates denying it matters is pretty silly. Just like the "it's not a motor because it uses electricity and you have to move your legs in a circular motion to control the throttle" argument.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Oh my goodness, we have closing speeds again! Gosh forbid how many times do people get messed up on closing speeds, in reality- not hypothetically speaking? The trail will dictate. Wide open, good site lines, faster speed. Tight singletrack, slower closing speeds. This argument is beaten to death. Fear of the unknown is the fuel to the fire.


You're the only one that keeps getting messed up on closing seeds. When everyone around you is the problem, you are the problem.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

IPunchCholla said:


> Yes. They do matter in reality. They matter to me when I ride. Basically when I hear a motorcycle coming I pull over regardless of uphill or downhill, because some of them are going way faster than I might redirect and a head on with one wouldn't be fun.
> 
> Also trails aren't one or the other, at least around here. There are a ton of corners that are soft enough but also just a bit obscured where I can be doing 15 and it is perfectly safe if done is coming the other direction climbing at 5mph (which is pretty much the max even a sitter fit cyclist would be climbing) but not at 15, which some class 1 bikes would be variable of.
> 
> ...


I was a pro for many years. Mostly in Europe. I excelled on the climbs, big ass climbs in the Dolomites and the Alps. I can flat motor uphill If I choose to. I'll climb 2-3x faster than most, so should fast climbers be banned from trails too due to the closing speed issues they present? Ridiculous argument especially when guys are riding way too fast on the dh than they should... and I'm not talking Moto.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

tealy said:


> This would only happen in the minds of paranoid American mountain bikers, but if e-bikers really got all the nice mtb trails shut down, I don't think that would be a bad thing.
> 
> We would have to go back to the days when we were badass and only had logging roads and atv trails to ride, which I thought was waaaaay more fun that this sanitized single track / flow trail bullshit that dominates these days.
> 
> Make MTB exploratory again.


"Wow, you're a mountain biker? Let's mate!" said no hot chick ever.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

tealy said:


> Europe has been through this and there are like no issues.


It's a different situation and there are not enough eBikes in circulation to really tell how it will play out. We have not 'been through' anything yet.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

ALimon said:


> I was a pro for many years. Mostly in Europe. I excelled on the climbs, big ass climbs in the Dolomites and the Alps. I can flat motor uphill If I choose to. I'll climb 2-3x faster than most, so should fast climbers be banned from trails too due to the closing speed issues they present? Ridiculous argument especially when guys are riding way too fast on the dh than they should... and I'm not talking Moto.


You're also the one claiming people are going 5 times too fast downhill, which is absurd on the face of it. That would mean doing 50 where they should be doing 10. That just doesn't happen. I climb about 2 times as fast as most. 6mph vs 3mph. That 3mph doesn't matter much. Where the average is 5 my climbing is 1.5 as fast, so 7. What I'm talking about is 750 Watt silently increasing closing speeds by 10mph on climbs. That is the legal bike. I won't go into modded bikes. Any time you increase closing speeds you will increase incidents, whether dh or uphill.

Trails around here were designed to control max descent speeds by being right and twisty. They were built that way to control closing speeds. Now a new tire of vehicle is in the trail that changes the basic assumptions under which the trails were designed.

Again, I'm not advocating against ebikes. I think we should figure out how to get them on trails. But I also recognize that they do change things on the ground and ebike advocates need to get up front of these issues, deal with them honestly. I really don't think the "they're the exact same as bikes" argument is going to fly (I mean why get one if they are the same?), unless of course Euro class 1 is adopted.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

So yesterday I'm leaving the trail head and see an older gentleman on what from afar looked like a dirt bike since he was approaching me at a decent pace and wasn't pedaling. As the guy passes me, I look over and realize that he's on an e-bike and he's indeed not pedaling at all (the road we were on is flat) as keeps moving at a good pace past me. 
Now, he was on a park concrete road which is totally fine but what's stopping him from taking it on the trail? Nothing. This particular trail is multi use for people and wildlife (tortoises, snakes, etc), and I wouldn't trust someone with a motor to not run me or an animal over because they're going too fast or simply not paying attention since they're not working--specially someone of an older age.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

irishpitbull said:


> Yeah he was pretty much unable to ride at all. He was on a pedal assist, no throttle. He was not going for an KOM's that's for sure.


I know I was not there and did not speak to him, but this just does not make sense to me. It still takes a little bit of effort to pedal a PAS eBike, that same effort could be used to pedal a beach cruiser on a bike path.

So maybe what he meant is he could not pedal a non-motorized bike up steep hills..... Of course if he has an ADA placard (I would certainly hope so with an injury that severe) it is really a non-issue. He is not the type of rider that is going to be pushing an eBike to it's limits. He is also not the majority of eBike owners as so many pro-eBikers on this site will tell us, they are all just regular dudes who also ride MTB. Some are ex-pro's who can pedal uphill 2-3x faster than a normal rider, so once they have a motor to help, where does that leave those ex-pros? 6-7 times faster than a normal rider?


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> When I was a kid the were called mopeds, small gas motor and 1:1 gearing, anyone the age of fifteen could ride. They were so (not) powerful that a decent sized adult could hold one in place at full throttle. We used to make my friend's do wheelies and broadies in gravel.
> 
> Ah, the god ole days.
> 
> ...


Sorry dude, I finally have enough money now to say YES to a conversion. And I guarantee it's going to be epic, as in doing an epic ride in 2-3 hours instead of 6 hours. You know, for those people who actually have other things to do than ride all day. How are the fouling the water? By pissing off the Strava time kings?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> Sorry dude, I finally have enough money now to say YES to a conversion. And I guarantee it's going to be epic, as in doing an epic ride in 2-3 hours instead of 6 hours. You know, for those people who actually have other things to do than ride all day. How are the fouling the water? By pissing off the Strava time kings?


No way, ask any of the electric bike advocates and they'll tell you that they're no faster than bicycles!

Seriously though give me about 30 hp and I'll cut that epic ride down to an hour or so, but then I guess it wouldn't qualify as an "epic" ride anymore 

If you don't have 6 hours how about only riding for 3? That's what I do, distance is irrelevant.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

I don't understand this. eBike advocates insist that eBikes are no faster than pedal bikes, and still require effort and a good workout. My question is that if this is true... what's the feckin point then? 

But of course it's not true. I'm just home from Glentress and I can tell you for a fact that ebikes do NOT climb at the same speed as a pedal bike. They go up hill a lot faster, or at least they can.


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

Cleaned: 

No name calling please. You're all adults, right?


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> I don't understand this. eBike advocates insist that eBikes are no faster than pedal bikes, and still require effort and a good workout. My question is that if this is true... what's the feckin point then?
> 
> But of course it's not true. I'm just home from Glentress and I can tell you for a fact that ebikes do NOT climb at the same speed as a pedal bike. They go up hill a lot faster, or at least they can.


The point is they enjoy riding e bikes. Does there need to be any other reason? Cyclist are lil b*tches about everything. Always whining, not a thread on mtbr without people hating on this or that. Take gravel bikes for instance, so many people here hating on them. Absolutely ridiculous. No one needs to explain why they ride the bike they do. It's their life, their choice, their money.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ALimon said:


> The point is they enjoy riding e bikes. Does there need to be any other reason? Cyclist are lil b*tches about everything. Always whining, not a thread on mtbr without people hating on this or that. Take gravel bikes for instance, so many people here hating on them. Absolutely ridiculous. No one needs to explain why they ride the bike they do. It's their life, their choice, their money.


Try using that explanation as the ranger writes the citation for poaching non-motorized trails. I'm sure the logic will prevail.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Try using that explanation as the ranger writes the citation for poaching non-motorized trails. I'm sure the logic will prevail.


Plenty of places to ride an e bike legally. Why would you assume otherwise? We have law enforcement in place to deal with those who break the law. Assumptions to fit the narrative is pointless.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ALimon said:


> Plenty of places to ride an e bike legally. Why would you assume otherwise? We have law enforcement in place to deal with those who break the law. Assumptions to fit the narrative is pointless.


Why wouldn't I with all of the other false logic being applied to justify not calling them motor bikes or mopeds?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Going to turn the e-bike advocates tactics against them, see how they like euphemisms and misinformation being used to shut them out.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Why wouldn't I with all of the other false logic being applied to justify not calling them motor bikes or mopeds?


False logic? Now that's a matter of interpretation don't ya think? Are you saying there's only one way to see the world?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ALimon said:


> False logic? Now that's a matter of interpretation don't ya think? Are you saying there's only one way to see the world?


Your interpretation does not reconcile with the facts.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Your interpretation does not reconcile with the facts.


Nor does yours. And round n round we go


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

sfgiantsfan said:


> What do you think is wrong with you? Have you ever been to a professional?


Nothing wrong with him at all. He's just pushing everyone's buttons and you all are getting suckered into it.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ALimon said:


> Nor does yours. And round n round we go


You are the one that perpetuated this with your non stop diarrhea of moped rhetoric, even after it was pointed out that you had no idea what you were talking about. You are single handedly doing more to damage to any credibility that e-bikes could have had than the whole of the e-bike forum, congrats. Please carry on.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

richj8990 said:


> Sorry dude, I finally have enough money now to say YES to a conversion. And I guarantee it's going to be epic, as in doing an epic ride in 2-3 hours instead of 6 hours. You know, for those people who actually have other things to do than ride all day. How are the fouling the water? By pissing off the Strava time kings?


You keep using that word, "Epic." I do not think it means what you think it means.

If you are using a motor it's not exactly "epic."

And it's a hobby. If you have other things to do that would just suggest you do a shorter ride. God Forbid you spend all day doing something you enjoy.

I have to laugh at your justification for "hurrying through" a ride.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ALimon said:


> No one needs to explain why they ride the bike they do. It's their life, their choice, their money.


You do need to explain it if they are not legal where you are riding them..... Sure, if you are riding an eBike on a trail that allows them, no problem, no explanation needed.

However the idea that we can make any choice we want with our own money and not face any consequences for our actions is absurd. I am sure you would not agree if that philosophy was used to justify riding a Honda CRF450 on a non-motorized trail.

It is our life and our choice to spend our money and use our toys in a responsible manner without breaking the laws or endangering trail access.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

ALimon said:


> The point is they enjoy riding e bikes. Does there need to be any other reason? Cyclist are lil b*tches about everything. Always whining, not a thread on mtbr without people hating on this or that. Take gravel bikes for instance, so many people here hating on them. Absolutely ridiculous. No one needs to explain why they ride the bike they do. It's their life, their choice, their money.


But it's not their trail. It impacts others. Also, you whine as much as anybody on this site.


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## fillaroida (Oct 2, 2017)

richj8990 said:


> sorry dude, i finally have enough money now to say yes to a conversion. And i guarantee it's going to be epic, as in doing an epic ride in 2-3 hours instead of 6 hours. You know, for those people who actually have other things to do than ride all day. How are the fouling the water? By pissing off the strava time kings?


rotfl!


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

mountainbiker24 said:


> But it's not their trail. It impacts others. Also, you whine as much as anybody on this site.


Who here is riding an e bike that has said they ride them on illegal trails? I believe that argument is all you anti e bike folks have. Talk about beating a dead horse!

Whining doesn't come from those in favor of things, it comes from those against them. You anti ebike crowd whine like no other.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

ALimon said:


> The point is they enjoy riding e bikes. Does there need to be any other reason? Cyclist are lil b*tches about everything. Always whining, not a thread on mtbr without people hating on this or that. Take gravel bikes for instance, so many people here hating on them. Absolutely ridiculous. No one needs to explain why they ride the bike they do. It's their life, their choice, their money.


It's not that...it's just why you are on a mountain biking forum, ostensibly all about bicycles that, as a minimum defining criteria, are human-powered talking about motorized bicycles as if they are the same as non-motorized bicycles.

It's a free country, this isn't my web site, and I can't tell you what to do...but they're not "bicycles" and a six hour epic ride accomplished in two hours with the assistance of motor is not epic or even worth talking about on a Mountain Bike Forum.

It's like, "whatever."


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Welcome to 2018, and welcome to the future. If you don’t like change, then buy a vintage bike, car, clothes and live in the past. You don’t have to embrace the future, it’s not mandatory. Change will happen with or without you.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

ALimon said:


> Who here is riding an e bike that has said they ride them on illegal trails? I believe that argument is all you anti e bike folks have. Talk about beating a dead horse!
> 
> Whining doesn't come from those in favor of things, it comes from those against them. You anti ebike crowd whine like no other.


I've run across a few e-bikers on trails they shouldn't have been on. I don't really care if any poster here admits that or not.

You whine about people that don't agree with you. A lot.


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

ALimon said:


> Welcome to 2018, and welcome to the future. If you don't like change, then buy a vintage bike, car, clothes and live in the past. .....


I would be curious to hear the view of an anthropologist on that subject.

We know that "settlement" * is the main source of obesity in society , what is gonna be the consequence of the electrification in leisure and sports ?

Golf has seen this since a while....

* sorry , english is not my main language , not sure if it's the right word.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I've run across a few e-bikers on trails they shouldn't have been on. I don't really care if any poster here admits that or not.
> 
> You whine about people that don't agree with you. A lot.


And then there's those on pedal bikes riding on trails they shouldn't be on either. Plenty of guys here poach, and I don't care if they admit it or not either. But I'm not going to assume that every guy here is riding closed trails just to validate an argument.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

ALimon said:


> And then there's those on pedal bikes riding on trails they shouldn't be on either. Plenty of guys here poach, and I don't care if they admit it or not either. But I'm not going to assume that every guy here is riding closed trails just to validate an argument.


I'm not, either. If I see a mountain biker on a hiking-only trail, I say something. Same for e-bikers. I'm not sure why you're focused on that. That has nothing to do with you whining.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

ALemon said:


> Welcome to 2018, and welcome to the future. If you don't like change, then buy a vintage bike, car, clothes and live in the past. You don't have to embrace the future, it's not mandatory. Change will happen with or without you.


Dirt bikes were invented some time ago yet they are still not allowed on non-motorized trails. Funny that?


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I'm not, either. If I see a mountain biker on a hiking-only trail, I say something. Same for e-bikers. I'm not sure why you're focused on that. That has nothing to do with you whining.


I'm not focused on that. You said you've seen a few e bikers on non motorized trails. My point is, so what. I've seen plenty of poachers too. Not sure what you're point is. I'm pro ebike remember? You're anti ebike and you're the one continually whining about ebikes in every ebike thread. I don't happen to like 29ers, but you don't see me in 29er threads whining and bashing people for riding them.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ALimon said:


> I'm not focused on that. You said you've seen a few e bikers on non motorized trails. My point is, so what. I've seen plenty of poachers too. Not sure what you're point is. I'm pro ebike remember? You're anti ebike and you're the one continually whining about ebikes in every ebike thread. I don't happen to like 29ers, but you don't see me in 29er threads whining and bashing people for riding them.


This is the "Say No To E-Bikes" thread, not the pro e-bike thread.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> Dirt bikes were invented some time ago yet they are still not allowed on non-motorized trails. Funny that?


That's because non motorized trails aren't the trails you want to be on anyway. (Too slow). I ride a dirt bike, we have tons of unbelievable sungletrack, epic ORV areas. When I'm on a moto, the last thing I want to see is a hiker or biker when I'm on the pipe!


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> This is the "Say No To E-Bikes" thread, not the pro e-bike thread.


It doesn't matter. Plenty of other e bike threads hijacked by whiners.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ALimon said:


> It doesn't matter. Plenty of other e bike threads hijacked by whiners.


This is by far the whiniest thanks to you. Your prize will arrive by mail or certified courier.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

ALimon said:


> I'm pro ebike remember?


How could anybody possibly forget? You are sure to throw e-bike nonsense into every thread that mentions motors.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> This is by far the whiniest thanks to you. Your prize will arrive by mail or certified courier.


I should get a prize, I'm winning, you all are whining. I accept carbon prizes only, no Aluminum!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ALimon said:


> I should get a prize, I'm winning, you all are whining. I accept carbon prizes only, no Aluminum!


Here ya go, first prize, with odor blocking.


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## karmaphi (Mar 19, 2018)

What's with the "cheating" argument? Isn't buying a more expensive lightweight bike like cheating too? Can't you ride a $1000 bike? Didn't people use the same argument against suspension when it was introduced?

Why can't you ride on mtb trails, or trails specifically made for wheeled vehicles? Why must hiking trails be shared with wheeled vehicles many times faster?

Is there anything inherently wrong with a small electric motor on a bike, besides this fear that they can grow to be more powerful? Is that not like saying conservative newbie mountain bikers can grow into poaching gravity addicts who are inconsiderate to other trail users, building trail features like jumps illegally? Say no to mountain bikers?

People may have discussed benefits of ebikes. What would you say if you try to discuss benefits of having mountain bikers allowed here and there, if they had such concerns? That strava-assholes, adrenaline junkies, and other inconsiderate people who are a bit selfish when it comes to sharing public space are the rare exceptions? Why don't you get off the bike and hike like others?

Is this not a case of insecurity and tribalism? Maybe a bit of discrimination and segregation sprinkled about?
















(scarcity mindset taker means someone who believes there's a shortage of something they have, such as trail access, and takes a stance in which they are careful to make trade-offs regarding it)


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

karmaphi said:


> What's with the "cheating" argument? Isn't buying a more expensive lightweight bike like cheating too? Can't you ride a $1000 bike? Didn't people use the same argument against suspension when it was introduced?


You missed the part about them having a*MOTOR*.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

karmaphi said:


> What's with the "cheating" argument? Isn't buying a more expensive lightweight bike like cheating too? Can't you ride a $1000 bike? Didn't people use the same argument against suspension when it was introduced?
> 
> Why can't you ride on mtb trails, or trails specifically made for wheeled vehicles? Why must hiking trails be shared with wheeled vehicles many times faster?
> 
> ...


What cheating argument?


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

karmaphi said:


> ....Is there anything inherently wrong with a small electric motor on a bike ...


If it has a motor it isn't a bicycle, it is a motorized conveyance.

What's wrong is that the e-motor riders simply refuse to acknowledge that they are not riding bicycles yet they expect to have the same hard earned privileges of bicycle riders.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Modding an ebike far past the current 20 mph speeds.
Guessing It's kind of simple.

Remove about a third of the windings in the motor,
Add voltage,
Get a stronger controller,
gear It down a bit,

Most electric motors are more efficient and powerful as RPM's rise.
Just like gasoline engines ,,,

If I ever get rear ended or hit head on by a careless ebike rider
he will remember me the rest of his life, same goes If I see one damaging the trails.

As for responsible riders, they can go ride the motocross area's.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Here ya go, first prize, with odor blocking.
> 
> View attachment 1200237


I'm disappointed in your listening skills. Carbon remember!?


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> You missed the part about them having a*MOTOR*.


You missed the part about EVOLUTION.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ALimon said:


> You missed the part about EVOLUTION.


Evolution in bicycles does not include *MOTORS*.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

ALimon said:


> You missed the part about EVOLUTION.


Nobody missed it. We just ignored it because it was stupid.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

mileslong said:


> If it has a motor it isn't a bicycle, it is a motorized conveyance.
> 
> What's wrong is that the e-motor riders simply refuse to acknowledge that they are not riding bicycles yet they expect to have the same hard earned privileges of bicycle riders.


Tell me more about the hard earned privileges? What percent of those posting on mtbr lifted a finger for the legality of mtb access? Unless you participated in trail advocacy, you really shouldn't use the term "earned priviledges". I've probably put in 500 hours of back breaking trail building and restoration hours. I've sat through the city council meetings and made my voice heard. I made my sacrifice for trail advocacy in my local community. One thing I've learned is, people talk, few walk. So if you've sacrificed in the past, thank you. If you haven't, don't talk about earned privileges.

What's wrong with the mtb'er refusing to admit an ebike (PAS LEVO) is not a motorcycle? I can accept a mororized conveyance, but anything else is a ridiculous argument.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Evolution in bicycles does not include *MOTORS*.


Hmmmm. Apparently they do now. Every manufacturer is now building a bike with a motor. Lol.

welcome to the future


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

ALimon said:


> Hmmmm. Apparently they do now. Every manufacturer is now building a bike with a motor. Lol.
> 
> welcome to the future


I'm not sure you understand what evolution is. Don't feel bad, a lot of people don't understand what evolution actually is.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

ALimon said:


> Hmmmm. Apparently they do now. Every manufacturer is now building a bike with a motor. Lol.
> 
> welcome to the future


You know I'm going to keep neg-repping you just as soon as I am able, don't you? I've never seen another MTBR forum member more deserving of it.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I'm not sure you understand what evolution is. Don't feel bad, a lot of people don't understand what evolution actually is.


I know exactly what it means. I'm using it as a figure of speech like many do. Many articles written using the term "figure of speech" describing everything from bikes, to cars to whatever.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ALimon said:


> Hmmmm. Apparently they do now. Every manufacturer is now building a bike with a motor. Lol.
> 
> welcome to the future


But, they are not bicycles. MOTORS make them something else. You seem to just ignore that salient point time after time.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Electronic bicycles ? Aka: Ebikes. It will never be known differently.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Electronic bicycles ? Aka: Ebikes. It will never be known differently.


Motorbikes


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Pro-ebikers:
eBikes are the same as pedal bikes and should automatically be granted the same access

Anti-eBikers:
eBikes have motors and while not the same as a motorcycle, they should be their own category of bike and not automatically be granted the same access.


This seems to be the same argument again and again.... Perhaps we can all take a break from repeating ourselves for a bit.

Thread closed.


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