# If emtbs were the norm would anyone buy a regular mountain bike ever again?



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

If for some reason emtbs became widely accepted would there be any reason for anyone to buy or ride a regular mountain bike? Considering most of your riding buddies would be on one what would incentivize someone to keep pedaling on a normal mountain bike when you would be struggling to keep up with everyone else?

Would emtbs effectively kill mountain biking as we know it today?


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

When I can buy an ebike for under 1k, I will...I don't care what the norm is, whats cool, or whats acceptable. I know for a fact an ebike will enhance my riding experience. I'm just not interested in shelling out 3k on a bike.


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## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

Lemonaid said:


> If for some reason emtbs became widely accepted would there be any reason for anyone to buy or ride a regular mountain bike? Considering most of your riding buddies would be on one what would incentivize someone to keep pedaling on a normal mountain bike when you would be struggling to keep up with everyone else?
> 
> Would emtbs effectively kill mountain biking as we know it today?


I don't own an ebike but I'll venture to say that in 10-15 years they might very well outnumber peddle bikes. Think batteries will get smaller, tech will get better/lighter and it will be hard to tell the difference riding one vs other. This is just a gut feeling and probably totally wrong.

There will always be peddlers though! Don't see that changing


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Lemonaid said:


> If for some reason emtbs became widely accepted would there be any reason for anyone to buy or ride a regular mountain bike? Considering most of your riding buddies would be on one what would incentivize someone to keep pedaling on a normal mountain bike when you would be struggling to keep up with everyone else?
> 
> Would emtbs effectively kill mountain biking as we know it today?


Just think how cheap you could get a non-emtbr for! It would be no different than how the 26er has slowly died. There are still people out riding 26ers though and non-emtr would be the same.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I'd be pissed if I couldn't go ride because my battery wasn't charged.


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## Pritchett (May 18, 2005)

There’s something satisfying about using your own muscles to accomplish a task. There will always be those who aren’t looking for the path of least resistance in our recreational pursuits.

You’ll find us walking, jogging, hiking, lifting heavy things, and pedaling our bikes with our own well earned human strength.

If you avoid doing things the hard way, expect to get soft.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Pritchett said:


> There's something satisfying about using your own muscles to accomplish a task. There will always be those who aren't looking for the path of least resistance in our recreational pursuits.
> 
> You'll find us walking, jogging, hiking, lifting heavy things, and pedaling our bikes with our own well earned human strength.
> 
> If you avoid doing things the hard way, expect to get soft.


You were doing so good until your dig at the end, which was un-needed.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> You were doing so good until your dig at the end, which was un-needed.


its a fact, not a dig, I know its hard for you to accept facts, but thats what it is. (that second part was a dig)


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Lemonaid said:


> If for some reason emtbs became widely accepted would there be any reason for anyone to buy or ride a regular mountain bike?


Yes, because some of us prefer riding bicycles. If I wanted to ride something with motor, I'd already be doing it. I certainly wouldn't ride one just because they were "widely accepted".



Lemonaid said:


> Considering most of your riding buddies would be on one what would incentivize someone to keep pedaling on a normal mountain bike when you would be struggling to keep up with everyone else?


Like a lot of riders, I mostly ride by myself. I don't think the people I do occasionally ride with are interested in eBikes either.



Lemonaid said:


> Would emtbs effectively kill mountain biking as we know it today?


I fear they might. The trails I ride are tight and twisty and some have a lot of traffic. If most people are riding ebikes and climbing faster and constantly needing to pass me, it will definitely lessen the sport for me and I'll probably have to drive further out to less traveled trails. Hopefully the NPS (I live two miles from a NPS National Rec Area that allows mtb) and Forest Service will keep their trails motor free.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

I am just not a assist type of person. I enjoy riding under my own power, alone or with somebody.
When I get too old and beat up to pedal I will go full moto. Hopefully by that time battery life will be better. I would like to be fume free.
E-bikes, for me anyway, just aren't something that appeals to me. They are not nimble like a MTB and don't blow roost like a moto.
And I realise that e-moto doesn't belong on a mtb trail.


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## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

rlee said:


> I am just not a assist type of person. I enjoy riding under my own power, alone or with somebody.
> When I get too old and beat up to pedal I will go full moto. Hopefully by that time battery life will be better. I would like to be fume free.
> E-bikes, for me anyway, just aren't something that appeals to me. They are not nimble like a MTB and don't blow roost like a moto.
> And I realise that e-moto doesn't belong on a mtb trail.


Motos are not any easier! So don't wait until you are old and beat up.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

If emtbs were the norm, I'd see non-emtbs as something for niche crowds.

- Frugal, simplicity-valuing types (e.g. fixie rider, singlespeeders, those who wish for near-zero-maintenance)

- Classic-conservative types that merely don't wish to see something go extinct (like those who don't want to see auto manual transmissions or 26" mtb wheels to go away, just-in-case it's all you got during a zombie apocalypse)

- Spartan types that consciously prefer to choose long and hard paths, thinking that it builds up desirable character (one that isn't soft)

- Righteous, principled types that have a low tolerance for heathens, and those who fear the wrath of such righteous types (e.g. tyrannical head-of-household, and those living in that household)

- "Green" thinking types, who believe that regular bikes are even more green than ebikes, and prove their greenness by perhaps not shuttling even their regular bikes from their house to the trails, in an effort to reduce their negative impact on the world and setting an example.

- Types that were previously traumatized by something found on an emtb, but not a regular bike, such as batteries that risk erupting in fire, or a motor-related accident (e.g. sticky accelerator)

- can't think of any more... 

I'm just generalizing that there will still be emtb hold-outs, for many reasons. I presume that there won't be any people who are clueless about ebikes, considering how mainstream they are in this hypothetical scenario. If this post offends you, and you are taking it personally... w/e feel free to take it out on me. I surely deserve it for whatever reason you can imagine.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

By definition, if ebikes were the norm, wouldn't that mean bicycles were already the niche? On ebike forums anyway, ebike riders often say they'll never or rarely ride bikes again. There are usually threads on that topic.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

If electric can openers were the norm would anyone buy a regular can opener ever again?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Cornfield said:


> If electric can openers were the norm would anyone buy a regular can opener ever again?


They still sell them so the answer would be yes.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

Pritchett said:


> There's something satisfying about using your own muscles to accomplish a task. There will always be those who aren't looking for the path of least resistance in our recreational pursuits.
> 
> You'll find us walking, jogging, hiking, lifting heavy things, and pedaling our bikes with our own well earned human strength.
> 
> If you avoid doing things the hard way, expect to get soft.


How much easier is it to ride an e-bike than a non e-bike? I mean I thought you still had to pedal, but you are paid with rewards by just going faster for the same effort you used to put out?
When you went up the hill, I assume it was as steep as what you ride your pedal bike up, you mean you didn't get tired the same as you did with the 'normal' bike?


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

seamarsh said:


> Motos are not any easier! So don't wait until you are old and beat up.


I think when you are too old and beat up to ride a bicycle you'll end up just sitting on the seat and riding fire roads.
When you are weak and achy you probably won't be very comfortable riding 'full moto'.

With that said, I do not know what your riding condition is now so perhaps you do enjoy fire roads, and said fire roads will be a blast with a gas powered bike.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sfgiantsfan said:


> its a fact, not a dig, I know its hard for you to accept facts, but thats what it is. (that second part was a dig)


No, no it is not a fact I know you want to believe it is but it's not.

Here's an idea if you guys don't want one don't buy one, but why do you care what someone else does or what shape they get in. Seems a lot of the most unlikable parts of road riding have come into mountain biking over the years.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

seamarsh said:


> Motos are not any easier! So don't wait until you are old and beat up.


I was thinking the same thing.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Lemonaid said:


> If for some reason emtbs became widely accepted would there be any reason for anyone to buy or ride a regular mountain bike? Considering most of your riding buddies would be on one what would incentivize someone to keep pedaling on a normal mountain bike when you would be struggling to keep up with everyone else?
> 
> Would emtbs effectively kill mountain biking as we know it today?


Its already my norm. If I want a normal bike workout, I'll turn it off for awhile. Albeit, this rarely happens.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

ninjichor said:


> If emtbs were the norm, I'd see non-emtbs as something for niche crowds.
> 
> - Frugal, simplicity-valuing types (e.g. fixie rider,


got one of those



ninjichor said:


> singlespeeders,


got one of those



ninjichor said:


> those who wish for near-zero-maintenance)


I wish for that but don't achieve it.



ninjichor said:


> - Classic-conservative types that merely don't wish to see something go extinct (like those who don't want to see auto manual transmissions or 26" mtb wheels to go away, just-in-case it's all you got during a zombie apocalypse)


Looking to buy a new car and I was considering a manual. They are fun to drive. But now-a-days that get worse gas mileage rather than better and my wife couldn't drive it.



ninjichor said:


> - Spartan types that consciously prefer to choose long and hard paths, thinking that it builds up desirable character (one that isn't soft)


I thought choosing the long and hard path was part of mountain biking. It is for me. Not so much for building character as for presenting challenges.



ninjichor said:


> - Righteous, principled types that have a low tolerance for heathens, and those who fear the wrath of such righteous types (e.g. tyrannical head-of-household, and those living in that household)


What does my wife have to do with this?



ninjichor said:


> - "Green" thinking types, who believe that regular bikes are even more green than ebikes, and prove their greenness by perhaps not shuttling even their regular bikes from their house to the trails, in an effort to reduce their negative impact on the world and setting an example.


I'm pretty green but nah.



ninjichor said:


> - Types that were previously traumatized by something found on an emtb, but not a regular bike, such as batteries that risk erupting in fire, or a motor-related accident (e.g. sticky accelerator)


nah


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> - can't think of any more...


You forgot the most obvious one. Like a lot of people I'm a cyclist, and for us pedaling (100%) is an integral part of the sport, and imo defines it. The part of cycling that electric bike enthusiasts do away with is the very part that makes it special, and for many, satisfying and fun.

So if I ever did trade my bicycle for an ebike it would mean that I quit cycling, which is something I hope to never do.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> Here's an idea if you guys don't want one don't buy one, but why do you care what someone else does or what shape they get in.


Most of the time the state of other people's physical fitness does not affect me (300 pound dude with sweat cheese in his fat folds sitting next to me in economy excepted) so I don't care.

Many folks do care about what electric bikers do because their misuse of their electric crutches creates access concerns - it's the desire not to be lumped in with the motor crowd.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

If ebikes become the ‘norm’, throttle-twist/pedal-optional bikes will also be very common, and with it the general asshattery that comes with sports that require very little dedication. User conflicts and banning “wheeled things” from all trails is a matter of time.

I’d probably just find a new sport to do.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Lemonaid said:


> If for some reason emtbs became widely accepted would there be any reason for anyone to buy or ride a regular mountain bike? Considering most of your riding buddies would be on one what would incentivize someone to keep pedaling on a normal mountain bike when you would be struggling to keep up with everyone else?
> 
> Would emtbs effectively kill mountain biking as we know it today?


 Harley and Davidson started with small motors on bicycles. Motos and bikes are still here. I want heavier weight and harder to handle? Nope. Looking for places to recharge on my bike packing trips in the middle of nowhere? Not. Looking for places to recharge on my all day bike excursions? Nope. Some of us like to disconnect and recharge our mental batteries in the woods. Under our own power, fueling with coffee and bacon as needed.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Harley and Davidson started with small motors on bicycles. Motos and bikes are still here. I want heavier weight and harder to handle? Nope. Looking for places to recharge on my bike packing trips in the middle of nowhere? Not. Looking for places to recharge on my all day bike excursions? Nope. Some of us like to disconnect and recharge our mental batteries in the woods. Under our own power, fueling with coffee and bacon as needed.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> You forgot the most obvious one. Like a lot of people I'm a cyclist, and for us pedaling (100%) is an integral part of the sport, and imo defines it. The part of cycling that electric bike enthusiasts do away with is the very part that makes it special, and for many, satisfying and fun.
> 
> So if I ever did trade my bicycle for an ebike it would mean that I quit cycling, which is something I hope to never do.


I believe that that falls under righteous and principled.

You have defined how something should be (cycling is 100% pedaling) as a principle/rule, why it is righteous (pedaling 100% is integral/special), and declared deviating from such to be intolerable (choosing ebike is like quitting cycling, which is deemed undesirable).

You've gone as far as speaking for others, cyclists, and essentially implied to have ebike enthusiasts disowned from the cycling community, in your perspective. You try to give value/hype to your stance by claiming a lot of people are like you (tribalism), and claim that it's obvious (should be common knowledge to all). You tried to frame it in a way that seemed all righteous, as if that were good. Righteousness is arguably not a totally good thing, at least when it's used arrogantly--see the crusades and what's fueling intolerance and disrespect for fellow man in current events.

Not implying taking such a stance is wrong. This stance just forms a group that will still be buying non-emtbs. Among all the different groups I listed, I can't deny that non-emtbs will still be commercially viable products. Just niche, rather than mainstream, presuming that the prices for these go up while the prices for emtbs go down in such a hypothetical situation.

To reinforce how you fall under such a category, let me ask you this, J.B. Weld, would you buy your own family members (non-disabled) an emtb? Would you impose any deterrents, that would influence their potential desire for an emtb, if they were to consider getting one for themselves? Basically making them weigh the value of the emtb, against the value of your relationship with them?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> I believe that that falls under righteous and principled.
> 
> You have defined how something should be (cycling is 100% pedaling) as a principle/rule, why it is righteous (pedaling 100% is integral/special), and declared deviating from such to be intolerable (choosing ebike is like quitting cycling, which is deemed undesirable).
> 
> ...


blah, blah, blah...... you got your (self righteous) opinions and I got mine. For me cycling means pedaling, that's what makes it so satisfying, and cool. A million cyclists know exactly what I'm talking about and for them this needs no explaining.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> To reinforce how you fall under such a category, let me ask you this, J.B. Weld, would you buy your own family members (non-disabled) an emtb? Would you impose any deterrents, that would influence their potential desire for an emtb, if they were to consider getting one for themselves? Basically making them weigh the value of the emtb, against the value of your relationship with them?


My wife buys what she wants, and if she wanted an electric bike that would be fine with me. If my (grown up) kids buy them that would be great too, maybe they could finally keep up with me 

In short, I love bicycles, I love riding bicycles and really could give a flying fork who else does or doesn't. Whatever is anybody else's passion is their own business, and if riding electric bikes is their thing that's alright by me. What I think shouldn't matter to them though. Ride your own trail.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

ninjichor said:


> I believe that that falls under righteous and principled.
> 
> You have defined how something should be (cycling is 100% pedaling) as a principle/rule, why it is righteous (pedaling 100% is integral/special), and declared deviating from such to be intolerable (choosing ebike is like quitting cycling, which is deemed undesirable).
> 
> ...


He didn't define anything, he just followed the actual definition. Bicycles are not powered by anything other than the rider and the definition shouldn't change just because some people want it to. Add a motor and they no longer meet the definition. Can't understand why that is so difficult for some to understand and why some ebikers are so desperate to think they are still riding a bicycle. Once again, why can't you just be happy ebiking?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Well, we already went through this process once about 100 years ago. Really crappy motors were added to pedal bikes. As the motors improved the pedals went away, and the sports diverged into motorcycling and bicycling. 

It'll be interesting to see if that happens again. 

-Walt


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Walt said:


> Well, we already went through this process once about 100 years ago. Really crappy motors were added to pedal bikes. As the motors improved the pedals went away, and the sports diverged into motorcycling and bicycling.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see if that happens again.
> 
> -Walt


I was thinking the same thing.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

What am I missing about this thread?

There are a number of comments suggesting ebikes are self propelled but the topic is ebikes, which is an electric assist pedal bike....isn't it? Or is the term ebike misused here in place of one of the actual electric bikes (the kind with only electric motors.

I'm reading the back and forth comments and trying to keep up but I feel like I'm all sorts of confused.

For what it's worth, I personally call the electric ones that do not have pedals an 'electric motorcycle'.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Forest Rider said:


> electric assist pedal bike


I like to call them "Mobility Assist Cycles" :thumbsup:


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Forest Rider said:


> What am I missing about this thread?
> 
> There are a number of comments suggesting ebikes are self propelled but the topic is ebikes, which is an electric assist pedal bike....isn't it?


I only quickly re-skimmed the thread but I didn't see anyone suggesting that.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Cornfield said:


> I like to call them "Mobility Assist Cycles" :thumbsup:


I don't see where too many handicapped people would be riding this "mobility assist cycle"


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Gutch said:


> View attachment 1234388
> 
> I don't see where too many handicapped people would be riding this "mobility assist cycle"


I thought that's what ebikes were for; letting those who can no longer ride regular bikes due to injuries and/or old age ride bikes again?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Not in my case. I ride emtbs for fun and something new. Nothing to do with old age or injuries.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Gutch said:


> Not in my case. I ride emtbs for fun and something new. Nothing to do with old age or injuries.


No sarcasm or judgement intended but just a honest question. Why then don't you ride moto?


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> blah, blah, blah...... you got your (self righteous) opinions and I got mine. For me cycling means pedaling, that's what makes it so satisfying, and cool. A million cyclists know exactly what I'm talking about and for them this needs no explaining.


Yes! I'd rep you for that comment, JBW, but I guess I have to spread it around. I know who won't be getting it.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Not in my case. I ride emtbs for fun and something new. Nothing to do with old age or injuries.


I call them Mobility Assist Cycles for fun and something new. :lol:

I'm happy for you, really! Ebikes are just another niche, like fat bikes and SS, and I don't judge anyone who chooses any of those.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

rlee said:


> No sarcasm or judgement intended but just a honest question. Why then don't you ride moto?


 I do.


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## Pritchett (May 18, 2005)

The electric buggies at the grocery store are free to use and readily available.
I’ll admit to banging around on one for fun once.
But generally, I’d be embarrassed to use one if not needed to accommodate some permanent or temporary handicap.

I feel the same about ebikes, which I’ll now be referring to as mobility assist bicycles.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Cool, so you’ll vote for “mobility assist vehicles” to be allowed anywhere mtbs are?


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## Pritchett (May 18, 2005)

Gutch said:


> Cool, so you'll vote for "mobility assist vehicles" to be allowed anywhere mtbs are?


I absolutely support their use by anyone who needs them to accommodate a permanent or temporary handicap.

This thread is about why anyone would buy a bike if ebikes become widely accepted... my example here is pointing out that even though a fun/lazy way of getting around the grocery store is readily available. Most able bodied people choose to support their body weight by their own unassisted means. I'm sure ninjichor has some enlightened diatribe about the psychological and socialogical reasoning behind that.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

If the availability of motors inevitably leads to the majority of people using them, can someone please explain to why the vast majority of canoes and kayaks don't have trolling motors?


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> If the availability of motors inevitably leads to the majority of people using them, can someone please explain to why the vast majority of canoes and kayaks don't have trolling motors?


Guessing here, Human power is preferred?


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> If the availability of motors inevitably leads to the majority of people using them, can someone please explain to why the vast majority of canoes and kayaks don't have trolling motors?


I don't know where you are but every time I go to the local pool to get some laps in it's full of these people.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I've been counting Segways in the wild since they came out how many years ago now?

I'm up to zero...


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

We have segways in our downtown. They give tours on them. All depends where you are geographically. Funny, I sold my first Levo to a guy in VT. He drove all the way here in SC for it. Nice guy, owned a B&B. Not sure where he rides.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> We have segways in our downtown. They give tours on them. All depends where you are geographically. Funny, I sold my first Levo to a guy in VT. He drove all the way here in SC for it. Nice guy, owned a B&B. Not sure where he rides.


There's tons of trail on private land around, it isn't actually all that hard to find places to ride whatever it is you want to ride as long as you get past the fact that state parks are probably not going to be your best bet.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> There's tons of trail on private land around, it isn't actually all that hard to find places to ride whatever it is you want to ride as long as you get past the fact that state parks are probably not going to be your best bet.


It seemed like in NYS it was predominantly private land as well. I own a little over 100 acres there and allow every recreationalist to hike or ride the trails thru, motor or solar, don't matter. I know when I belonged to our snowmobile club we were constantly asking land owners for permission. Hard sell sometimes. Snowmobiles at 2AM going past your home. Yikes..


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## mintakax (Jan 20, 2019)

Pritchett said:


> The electric buggies at the grocery store are free to use and readily available.
> I'll admit to banging around on one for fun once.
> But generally, I'd be embarrassed to use one if not needed to accommodate some permanent or temporary handicap.
> 
> I feel the same about ebikes, which I'll now be referring to as mobility assist bicycles.


I'm 68, used to ride mtbs but haven't in several years. I also had and rode several motorcycles over the years. I just bought an emtb and am having a blast. There is nothing about it that makes me feel like I am not riding a bicycle, in fact most of the time I forget its electric assist. It isn't even close to riding a motorcycle. I'm still sweating, just less so and damaging my bum knee less as well. I don't at all understand the hate for emtbs, your electric buggy analogy seems like a complete misperception at best.


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## Pritchett (May 18, 2005)

mintakax said:


> I'm 68, used to ride mtbs but haven't in several years. I also had and rode several motorcycles over the years. I just bought an emtb and am having a blast. There is nothing about it that makes me feel like I am not riding a bicycle, in fact most of the time I forget its electric assist. It isn't even close to riding a motorcycle. I'm still sweating, just less so and damaging my bum knee less as well. I don't at all understand the hate for emtbs, your electric buggy analogy seems like a complete misperception at best.


I have no hate for emtbs. I don't even mind sharing the trails with them, so long as riders respect each other as well as other trail users. Obviously, there's plenty of hooligans acting like jerks on regular bikes too, and they cause the same trouble that a hooligan on an ebike would. So no difference there.

The thread is asking why anyone would buy a normal bike if ebike became widely accepted. I and others have given plenty of reasons why many folks will continue using our own strength to go fast, as long as we can.

I hope to ride into my later years and would not hesitate to accept any assistance available to me. It's the 30 year old guys looking to have fun without effort... (or more fun with less effort-same thing to me) that I enjoy trolling. Especially if they live in a place with no considerable elevation.

Make no mistake, if I had some permanent or temporary disability or age related limitations, I'd be using pedal assist already.

However, I'd still be encouraging those who don't need assistance to enjoy their physical abilities while they can.

I give zero f's what strangers on the internet do. The eBikers seem to be the ones on here all the time wanting everyone to tell them how cool they are.


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## mintakax (Jan 20, 2019)

Pritchett said:


> I have no hate for emtbs. I don't even mind sharing the trails with them, so long as riders respect each other as well as other trail users. Obviously, there's plenty of hooligans acting like jerks on regular bikes too, and they cause the same trouble that a hooligan on an ebike would. So no difference there.
> 
> The thread is asking why anyone would buy a normal bike if ebike became widely accepted. I and others have given plenty of reasons why many folks will continue using our own strength to go fast, as long as we can.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply and consideration. I mean no disrespect, but your stance seems kind of judgmental. You say you don't want someone to have more fun with less effort ... why ? I could understand your stance if ebikers are damaging trails or being arseholes (are they ?), but I cant understand the attitude that you don't want them having more fun with less effort. The general (not necessarily yours) ebike dislike has a big impact on all emtb riders regardless of age or disability. Most of the mtb trails in my area are illegal for emtbs. The trails that are legal are legal for class 1 bikes only and are mostly wide and flat and have dog walkers, runners, hikers and horseback riders. I'd really like to ride a more traditional mtb trail but cant do it legally and I am honestly bewildered as to why ?

Please tell me how a class 1 emtb negatively impacts mtb riding for you ?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> I've been counting Segways in the wild since they came out how many years ago now?
> 
> I'm up to zero...


 True story, the rich British guy who bought the segway company died, drove one off a cliff.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mintakax said:


> Most of the mtb trails in my area are illegal for emtbs. The trails that are legal are legal for class 1 bikes only and are mostly wide and flat and have dog walkers, runners, hikers and horseback riders. I'd really like to ride a more traditional mtb trail but cant do it legally and I am honestly bewildered as to why ?


That's a question that should be directed at the land manager.

There is not a one size fits all answer as to why electric motor bicycles are banned in many places.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Gutch said:


> View attachment 1234388
> 
> I don't see where too many handicapped people would be riding this "mobility assist cycle"


Gutch: do you have the dual battery option on your Focus? What is the total wh of the combined batteries on this one? Super nice looking bike, btw. Best of luck with it.


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## Matt Smith (Sep 2, 2015)

I'd definitely still buy a regular MTB because EMTB's just can't do all day epic rides. I might be interested in an EMTB once battery technology improves to the point that you can do a 50 mile ride with 10K'+ elevation gain.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> Gutch: do you have the dual battery option on your Focus? What is the total wh of the combined batteries on this one? Super nice looking bike, btw. Best of luck with it.


 Thx. Yes I do have the dual battery option. It provides 756wh. when combined. I can ride 26miles with 3-4k' ft elevation climb , riding on ECO with just the frame battery only. Btw I'm 195-200# 6'1. It absolutely handles night and day compared to past Levo's. It is 46# and is an absolute pleasure to ride. It Is solid and planted. I can manual, bunny hop and throw a few little whips with it. Also scrubs. I have owned many high end mtbs and road bikes in my life and this is the funnest to date.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Matt Smith said:


> I'd definitely still buy a regular MTB because EMTB's just can't do all day epic rides. I might be interested in an EMTB once battery technology improves to the point that you can do a 50 mile ride with 10K'+ elevation gain.


Getting close! Read my post above.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

langster831 said:


> When I can buy an ebike for under 1k, I will...I don't care what the norm is, whats cool, or whats acceptable. I know for a fact an ebike will enhance my riding experience. I'm just not interested in shelling out 3k on a bike.


Well you CAN buy one for under $1K, but I doubt you will like it as a 'real' mountain bike.

I just bought my stepbrother a $500 one, a folding e-bike, 36 lbs, 250W, battery is not detachable. He'll have a blast but it's essentially a throw-away bike. There are others that are a bit less BSO, but the main issue is that if something breaks or doesn't work right out of the box, what are you going to do, ship it back to China for $120 and hope they honor the refund? And the more reliable ones, which are almost all rear hub motors, are at least $1600 (Addmotor); cheapest decent mid-drive is around $2150 (FLX 350W).

My front-hub conversion, including bike itself, hub motor/wheel, battery, and brake upgrade was around $1250 total. Very fun to climb with but downhill is just plain scary, even with decent brakes. It's not enjoyable doing real downhill trails. I'm sure the e-bike haters would love everyone doing this to have a front-hub motor because of the downhill issue.

If you wanted a cheap mid-drive, this is what I may do later:
Mongoose Tyax Supa Sport 27.5+ $620 with 2.8 tires, fork sucks but that's not a dealbreaker with plus tires, maybe upgrade fork later of course...
Shimano SLX / XT brake upgrade with 180mm rotors/adapters: $235
Bafang 500W mid-drive $450
48W 17Ah battery $520 (10Ah can be had for under $300, 13Ah around $350)
LBS mid-drive plus controller installation labor, if needed $180 (in my area, not sure about your area)

Total: depending on the starting hardtail bike, brake upgrade, and battery Ah, somewhere between $1500-2000 w/o LBS labor. Mine above would be $1825, assuming no Chinese tariff complications. For now, I'm seriously having a blast with the $1250 front-hub bike. It climbs better than you might think (I'll post videos one day). I may even buy the Tyax plus bike above and keep the front hub instead of doing the mid-drive (my current XC bike can only take a 2.25 in back, thus the Tyax plus bike plan later for more traction in back).

I doubt that a functional (as in serious uphill/downhill), real hardtail mountain bike with e-power will ever get under $1000, but you never know. As far as 'me' only having one or more e-bikes and nothing else, no, I'll keep at least one normal bike around as long as I'm in shape. I have pretty good genetics overall, my dad is still biking at 75 years so I don't think I'll 'need' an e-bike for a long time. I predict that the current 4-5% e-bike ownership rate will probably peak at around 20% of the mountain bike total, then level off. I really doubt it will get about 30% of the total. There is really no reason for 'everyone' to ride an e-bike; they are heavier and the performance/handling aesthetics are not exactly beloved. Singlespeeds and gravel bikes are trending too, and those are obviously 100% pedal power, so e-bikes will not supplant those (although I personally wonder about the people who buy them as they probably wonder about me lol).


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Gutch said:


> Thx. Yes I do have the dual battery option. It provides 756wh. when combined. I can ride 26miles with 3-4k' ft elevation climb , riding on ECO with just the frame battery only. Btw I'm 195-200# 6'1. It absolutely handles night and day compared to past Levo's. It is 46# and is an absolute pleasure to ride. It Is solid and planted. I can manual, bunny hop and throw a few little whips with it. Also scrubs. I have owned many high end mtbs and road bikes in my life and this is the funnest to date.


Just near twice the capacity of my 400wh Haibike, yamaha motor set up. In my water level kind of riding around where I live, a bike like yours has to deliver near 100 miles in an eco setting, employing as much pedal spinning and less engagement of the torque sensor as possible.

We seem to have had a thread that just went "Poof!!" into the place on the net where things fade to black... Anyways, I was able to squeeze out 95 miles on a canal run last summer, a few elevation climbs, using primarily Eco and Eco+ on the Yamaha drive. In between power settings, alot of gear changes on the most minimal of climbs. One more aspect of the ebike that is just plain fun is seeing how many miles you can squeeze out of a full charge.

As battery design matures along, 50 mile rides in 10k elevation climbs will be possible. I consider the dual battery bikes like yours part of that evolution.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Wow, 95 miles is huge! I’ve done a century before on a road bike, but not on a mtb! Yeah, I don’t think on a flat road with both batteries I could tweak out 95 miles. Maybe, but doubt it.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I forgot one group of non-emtb buyer in my list:

- Types looking to participate in events, and other riding opportunities, that are for specifically for non-emtbs only.

Not sure if "emtbs becoming the norm" means that custom design frame builders and childrens bikes have access to pedal assist parts too, but I imagine that the industry matured enough to cover the needs of most profitable markets.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Gutch said:


> Wow, 95 miles is huge! I've done a century before on a road bike, but not on a mtb! Yeah, I don't think on a flat road with both batteries I could tweak out 95 miles. Maybe, but doubt it.


Thanks much! Contrary to what a lot of the non-ebike riding, ebike commenters who frequent these pages think in their mind about these "motorsickles", that 95 mile jaunt was completed with an average speed of about 10 something mph. And believe me, when you deploy those lower power levels, one is feeling the extra weight of these bikes! No, no "wind on the back" feeling we usually get when we go for the high power settings. I was quite physically wasted at the end of that run!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Oh hell yeah, especially with the fat tires. My brother still rips his as well. He’s had zero issues with it. He bought another haibike sduro for his wife to ride. She hasn’t been biking in probably 20 yrs! They ripped 10 the first day and she loves it.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Speaking for myself only. I demo'd am Intense Trazer for 3 days, it was so much fun and you still get an incredible workout! I'll be buying one soon and still keeping my Trek Fuel, but I doubt be I'll riding the Trek often. I ride for several reason and in this order: fun, stress release, exercise and hanging with friends. The Tazer fills all the boxes, especially FUN! I honestly doubt I'll buy another regular mountain bike again.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mtbbiker said:


> Speaking for myself only. I demo'd am Intense Trazer for 3 days, it was so much fun and you still get an incredible workout! I'll be buying one soon and still keeping my Trek Fuel, but I doubt be I'll riding the Trek often. I ride for several reason and in this order: fun, stress release, exercise and hanging with friends. The Tazer fills all the boxes, especially FUN! I honestly doubt I'll buy another regular mountain bike again.


Right on! Welcome to the dark side. I know I personally won't buy another mtb. Maybe rent one if riding somewhere where class1 are not allowed. I, like you have always rode for those reasons.


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

Matt Smith said:


> I'd definitely still buy a regular MTB because EMTB's just can't do all day epic rides. I might be interested in an EMTB once battery technology improves to the point that you can do a 50 mile ride with 10K'+ elevation gain.


Why cant an Ebike fo all day epic rides with 10k of elevation ? They pedal just like any other mountain bike when there not turned on which is how I use mine off for most of the ride turn it on when I need it

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

scottxpc said:


> Why cant an Ebike fo all day epic rides with 10k of elevation ? They pedal just like any other mountain bike when there not turned on which is how I use mine off for most of the ride turn it on when I need it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Damn, you must have some serious power, or ride in Florida!


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

Gutch said:


> Damn, you must have some serious power, or ride in Florida!


I live in Pennsylvania there really not that much different just heavier

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

scottxpc said:


> I live in Pennsylvania there really not that much different just heavier
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


No, I hear ya. I've heard there's some good ebike riding in PA.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

It's awesome to read the reviews that new Emtb riders are posting these days! On the trails Ive seen some awesome rigs as well! Last time I was in Santa Cruz I ran into a dude with a RM Powerplay, and the dude riding it it RIPS! Awesome rig!

All these ebike haters are simply future Emtb riders themselves. Wait til they ride one, on their favorite trail.

The current crop of new bikes that are coming are so SICK!!!!


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I was thinking more along the lines of Sondors, as a emtb norm, honestly. Who has money for that Liteville, Altitude Powerplay, Shuttle, eZesty, Levo, or w/e? That's beyond middle-class, and more "passion", meaning the buyer is willing to suffer or sacrifice for what they love.

Trade wars (tariffs) and legal issues (unauthorized on certain public land) are delaying this "norm" from happening any time soon.

I'd be trying to customize one myself if I found a manufacturer with a MOQ that I could afford. Thinking that an emtb around 4k would be perhaps good enough to lure some enthusiasts. Until then, I'll wait for one to come close enough to tweak with an angleset.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

PinoyMTBer said:


> All these ebike haters are simply future Emtb riders themselves. Wait til they ride one, on their favorite trail.


Again with the false "haters" whine. Cute.

My experience:

I took my buddy's electric motor bicycle (Motobecane HAL eBoost Pro) for a spin on my favorite local trail, Oat Hill.

It didn't make me want to get one. Go figure.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

PinoyMTBer said:


> All these ebike haters are simply future Emtb riders themselves. Wait til they ride one, on their favorite trail.


I've ridden them, they're awesome, but not legal on my favorite trails, nor will be any time soon, so not much point in worrying about it.

I'm not a hater, I think they're really cool, but not bikes, or as benign as the industry would lead us to believe.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

og-mtb said:


> Again with the false "haters" whine. Cute.
> 
> My experience:
> 
> ...


Ride a Specialized Turbo S and then decide. I do not own one but it was the most fun I ever had on a bike. I was opposed to the whole deal until I was not.


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## mintakax (Jan 20, 2019)

Harryman said:


> I've ridden them, they're awesome, but not legal on my favorite trails, nor will be any time soon, so not much point in worrying about it.
> 
> I'm not a hater, I think they're really cool, but not bikes, or as benign as the industry would lead us to believe.


Could you elaborate on not "as benign as the industry would lead us to believe" ?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Lemonaid said:


> If for some reason emtbs became widely accepted would there be any reason for anyone to buy or ride a regular mountain bike? Considering most of your riding buddies would be on one what would incentivize someone to keep pedaling on a normal mountain bike when you would be struggling to keep up with everyone else?
> 
> Would emtbs effectively kill mountain biking as we know it today?


Motorsports and human powered sports are two different things. There are many examples of two versions of an activity where one is motorized and the other isn't. They both co-exist with some people keen about one or the other or both.

You don't have to incentivize me to keep pedalling a normal mountain bike. I want to pedal a mountain bike and I have no use for a battery or motor. They solve no problem I am having, but add things I don't enjoy.

I started riding motos when I was 17 so I am not a motor hater, but I also haven't been wishing my mountain bike was motorized either. It's pretty awesome the way it is. I can ride large distances over mountains and I enjoy powering the bicycle 100%.

I ride with a fairly large group of folks and nobody has expressed any interest in e-bikes despite very steep challenging riding in our area.

If I wake up tomorrow and 95% of mountain bikers have switched to e-biking I'll keep rocking my non-motorized bike. I don't mind riding alone, but I am pretty sure I'll find enough people to ride with to have a blast.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

All the ebike riders I know and ride with, are all very long time riders of ANYTHING 2 wheeled, (and all old farts) and we all are amazed that we like the damn things so much. It's weird how they are the amount of fun they are: I don't feel like mine is a gutless dirt bike, or a way heavier and more complicated bicycle, THOUGH IT IS BOTH THOSE, more that it's some sort of best of both mixture that is unexpectedly a blast to ride. It's the fun of regular bike riding, and more...., is the simplest way I can express it. I don't feel any need to convince others BTW, it's all good.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I've ridden plenty of ebikes but it's been awhile so no modern versions, I'll check out a newer one sooner or later but the opportunity hasn't arisen yet. Anyway I suspect that one of the biggest reasons pedal assist electric bikes are so appealing is that after awhile one might forget there's a motor at all and instead feel like they are suddenly a much more powerful rider than they were before.

For many there are several other benefits as well, I can definitely understand the appeal and my guess is that they will eventually become more popular than bicycles, possibly sooner than later.

They won't replace them though, there will still be some hardcores (just like 100 years ago) who really enjoy cycling and the satisfaction of 100% human propulsion.

I'm not saying one is superior to the other, it's just a matter of personal choice. I can't imagine giving up cycling, and to me cycling means that I supply 100% of the power. Who knows what the future brings though, I can only guess.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Where I live I bought my buddy a fitting for his road bike in exchange for helping me frame my house. Anyrate, we rode there, I took my Turbo S road bike and my buddy on his Giant Propel. The cycling coach and fitting guy was in awe over my Turbo S. The whole building was talking about how much fun they are. 
A couple weeks later, out for a ride, stop at a cafe for a drink (a lot of riders stop there) and Christian VandeVeld eyeballing my Turbo S. This is when they first came out. 
So, here two hardcore cyclists that digged my ebike. When you get to that level, you really don’t care what people are riding, as long as they are enjoying themselves on two wheels.


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## Matt Smith (Sep 2, 2015)

scottxpc said:


> Why cant an Ebike fo all day epic rides with 10k of elevation ? They pedal just like any other mountain bike when there not turned on which is how I use mine off for most of the ride turn it on when I need it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Because I have no interest in pedaling around a 48lb pig when it's not on. Kinda defeats the point if you ask me.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> So, here two hardcore cyclists that digged my ebike. When you get to that level, you really don't care what people are riding, as long as they are enjoying themselves on two wheels.


Why do you think someone needs to be at "that level" to have that attitude? Just an average joe here but I don't care how other people enjoy themselves on 2 wheels either.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Why do you think someone needs to be at "that level" to have that attitude? Just an average joe here but I don't care how other people enjoy themselves on 2 wheels either.


They don't obviously, just trying to prove a point that the serious cyclist (as yourself) doesn't give a **** about the petty bs. They just ride and do their thing.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Why do you think someone needs to be at "that level" to have that attitude? Just an average joe here but I don't care how other people enjoy themselves on 2 wheels either.


Just as long a certain people on certain types of bikes stay off your trails right?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Just as long a certain people on certain types of bikes stay off your trails right?


They aren't my trails, and I've no say as to what types of people use them.

Yes, I am a proponent for non-motorized trails.


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

Matt Smith said:


> Because I have no interest in pedaling around a 48lb pig when it's not on. Kinda defeats the point if you ask me.


So a workout defeats the purpose? Interesting ! But everyone says people with Ebikes are lazy lol

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

mintakax said:


> Could you elaborate on not "as benign as the industry would lead us to believe" ?


The Industry line is that they're just like a mtb, but you simply get a little assist. Great for the old and infirm. They roll out an essentially 250w EU spec emtb as an example of what people will be riding and completely ignore that the laws (that they wrote!) allow 750w ebikes with much higher torque. And, "a little assist" is subjective, current 250w provide up to @750w, and 750w ebikes @1500w. Even current 250w emtbs provide far more than a little help while climbing, and as we've seen each model year will release models that will be more powerful and have greater range. Emtbs people are riding now are nothing like what we'll see here in the US, in the future.

They will be more like this:

https://www.pedelec-biker.de/2018/11/motortest-1000-hohenmeter-mit-dem-tq.html

FF to 4:20 in the video if you want to compare the speed with a mtb rider. The same motor is coming on the new Haibike due out in the US this fall.

Besides, they say, with a class 1 emtb, you still have to pedal, so it's just like a bike. And all that weight makes them less appealing to guys who want to rip and throw them around. Umhm.

[video]https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-pure-uk-speed-on-an-ebike.html[/video]

Plus, they say, the motor shuts off at 20mph, to keep it within the range of bike speeds. Except, aside from the 2019 Levo, they don't do anything to keep people from easily bypassing that, which many do if you believe what enthusiasts on emtb forums say. This years Levo had people stumped for a couple of months, but there's already a few workarounds. People like going fast, it's a fact.

They'll point to the IMBA study as evidence they have the same impact on trails as a mtb, which while a decent study, was done in 2015 when emtbs had @ 60nm of torque, and they're now double that. Plus, it was done using a 350w emtb, which was likely a hub, not mid drive, since no 350w mid drive emtbs existed then, and not 750w motor as should have been used. Land managers have to manage based on what the laws allow, if studies are going to matter, they have to reflect what is actually going to be ridden.

https://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a0f32317_g3m6bdt7g.pdf

They ignore the fact that a rider on an emtb typically rides 2-3 times as far then they would on a mtb. Not an issue on an individual basis, but it's a concern to land managers when most of your riding population is on emtbs, as is proposed by the OP.

The industry sold people on the idea that the reg limits would keep ebikers in line somehow, which is ridiculous. Idiots are idiots regardless of what toy they're on, and couple that with the fact that in almost all parts of the US, there's no effective enforcement anyway. Which means we'll also start seeing ebikes with motors like these.

https://electrek.co/2019/01/17/bafa...LhFXn7dggb8S6fn8HlFmL6Sy XNLj-DFdVGQvnfJEMns

Now, you'd think, since all of these issues are managable, the industry would be making a concerted effort at this early stage of emtb access to solve them, or at least make it look like they're trying. Solid anti tampering solutions. Emtb ambassadors on the trails like mtb orgs used to have. Campaigns educating the emtb rider about how self policing against asshats on powerful "e bikes" is the best way to keep the access they have and increase it. Providing grants for trail maintenance, pushing emtb riders to join their local mtb orgs on maintenance days, or to start their own. Nope, none of that.

Just


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

KenPsz said:


> You were doing so good until your dig at the end, which was un-needed.


Well, he is correct to some extent. But I do understand that it's not a total lack of exertion to operate an ebike.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

scottxpc said:


> So a workout defeats the purpose? Interesting ! But everyone says people with Ebikes are lazy lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Riiiiiiiigggghhhhht......like ebike people buy ebikes to ride without the motors to get a better workout. I'll start reminding the ebike riders I see about that.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Ride a Specialized Turbo S and then decide. I do not own one but it was the most fun I ever had on a bike. I was opposed to the whole deal until I was not.


Why was it the most fun you've ever had?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Harryman said:


> The Industry line is that they're just like a mtb, but you simply get a little assist. Great for the old and infirm. They roll out an essentially 250w EU spec emtb as an example of what people will be riding and completely ignore that the laws (that they wrote!) allow 750w ebikes with much higher torque. And, "a little assist" is subjective, current 250w provide up to @750w, and 750w ebikes @1500w. Even current 250w emtbs provide far more than a little help while climbing, and as we've seen each model year will release models that will be more powerful and have greater range. Emtbs people are riding now are nothing like what we'll see here in the US, in the future.
> 
> They will be more like this:
> 
> ...


Good tune in the "Deity" video. That bafang motor looks like a soccer ball glued to the bb! Do you know of a mainstream oem that produces a 750w mid drive? Like you say, that's really what the extent of the law is.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Lemonaid said:


> If for some reason emtbs became widely accepted would there be any reason for anyone to buy or ride a regular mountain bike? Considering most of your riding buddies would be on one what would incentivize someone to keep pedaling on a normal mountain bike when you would be struggling to keep up with everyone else?
> 
> Would emtbs effectively kill mountain biking as we know it today?


No. After 37 years of mountain biking riding an eBike is a step down the ladder, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. My eBike is a lot less fun on the downhill because I pretty much roll every drop because the darn thing is so heavy.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I’m actually as fast downhill on my emtb as I was on my Pivot, Evil, Rip etc... After more seat time I’ve adapted to the weight and the slower handling characteristics. Kinda how I use to bomb my XC mtbs like dh rigs with steep HT, high BB, and slack seat post angle. Not to mention, skinny flat bar! Ironically, geometry has done a complete opposite!

I think we all adapt to whatever we ride.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

EMBN did a speed test on eBikes vs. non-ebikes both on downhill courses and enduro courses and found that ebikes are faster at both 

I think if you can't jump or drop your eMTB you need to work on your upper body strength and form... no offense :thumbsup:


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Same experience here, the Emtb’s weight (middrive models only) is actually a great feature. Its carries momentum so well and it is extremely stable. 

I find myself descending faster on my Emtb than my old MTBs. Its also feel sketchier on the MTB, its simply to lightweight


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Same experience here, the Emtb's weight (middrive models only) is actually a great feature. Its carries momentum so well and it is extremely stable.
> 
> I find myself descending faster on my Emtb than my old MTBs. Its also feel sketchier on the MTB, its simply to lightweight


Agree, the heavier bike and lower weight definitely make it more planted. But I would never go faster down than my mtb...


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Lowered CoG, more centralized weight distro, and better sprung-to-unsprung weight ratio in effect there, to improve handling impressions.

Refusing to ride something due to its high weight sounds like being spoiled and snobby, if you don't explain what purpose it's defeating. I see the opportunity to get a workout in that too, which is one of my main purposes. I too found my small bike to be too light and sketchy, after riding a heavier bike, preferring the heavy bike (32 lbs with 1300+g front tire) since it did a better job at keeping pace with my companions.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

I like this weight discussion since that means all the time I spent riding downhill bikes and my current FS fat bike have made me ready for the transition to a FS ebike once I can afford one.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

I think ebikes will be completely different beasts than what we see today if they do become the norm one day. 

But will they really? nope. Why? People still run... for fun!


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

langster831 said:


> People still run... for fun!


I know, right? And check this out; some people ride bikes with only ONE gear! I mean, wtf are they thinking???


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Good tune in the "Deity" video. That bafang motor looks like a soccer ball glued to the bb!


Yeah, it's massive. I doubt anyone buying one is even remotely thinking about the weight. Considering they're just getting into the mid drive market, they have some interesting products, they can do small and light too.

https://electrek.co/2018/05/07/new-bafang-powertrain-lightweight-electric-road-bikes/

It's an interesting chicken and egg scenario regarding 750w emtbs. The emtb market is miniscule in the US, so it's not worth it for a mainstream emtb manufacturer to develop one using a 750w (maybe Chinese) motor and another 250w for the EU market. The EU is placing big tariffs on Chinese ebike motors to protect the EU motor companies, and they aren't also up to the EU standards/testing. The Asian ebike market, which is massive, is mainly hub motors. So, the main market for 250w+ mid drives is the US, and since there isn't testing, they can sell them as whatever wattage you'd like. Time will tell how or if the emtb market takes off here, or remains a niche within a niche.

More info here:https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/no-bafang-used-by-mainstream-bike-manufactures.26446/



Gutch said:


> Do you know of a mainstream oem that produces a 750w mid drive? Like you say, that's really what the extent of the law is.


The Flyon on the new Haibike could be released here as 750w, it's just a software setting, so they could if they wanted to. It's going to be released as 250w in the EU. They are being very tight lipped about it, initially saying it wasn't coming to the states at all.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/10/haibikes-new-flyon-electric-bicycles-powerful/


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

Cornfield said:


> I know, right? And check this out; some people ride bikes with only ONE gear! I mean, wtf are they thinking???


Ha! Is that true? I think some guys just hold a grudge against shimano and don't what to pay for a fancy derailleur...cheap bastards!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

langster831 said:


> I think ebikes will be completely different beasts than what we see today if they do become the norm one day.
> 
> But will they really? nope. Why? People still run... for fun!


If it were possible to build electric running shoes that looked the same as regular shoes but let you run twice as fast that might change.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

The big question is still the first word in the OP's question..... "if"

I honestly do not believe that eBikes will become more mainstream than pedal bikes for trail riding.

For on the street, yes.

Bikes designed for the trails.... no.

Groups like the Sierra Club and other Hateful Old Hiker groups and some equestrian groups that dislike bikes on trails will make sure of that.

Check out this post this week on a different local SoCal mtb forum:



> Public Service Announcement. I usually encourage DirtTreaders to be extra polite to hiker groups. But in this case, I'd recommend staying well away from anything and anybody south of the CNLM-managed trails around the lake. It'd be a good day for trail work at Black Mountain, or a ride elsewhere.
> 
> Here's what Preserve Calavera posted:
> 
> ...


When groups like the Sierra Club are still that adamant that _Pedal Bikes are ruining the world_..... You can bet they will hold an even firmer line against any bike with a motor.

So while eBikes will become more popular than they are now, I do not think they will overtake Bicycles (human power only) in the Trail world or in the serious road bike world. They will absolutely dominate the commuter bike, Cargo Bike and beach cruiser world. When they are cheap enough and I have the money for it, I will own a Beachcruiser/cargo/commuter style eBike. I have a number of friends who have em and love em. Perfect for riding down to the beach(roughly 5 miles from my home). I don't think I will ever own an e-MTB.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> If it were possible to build electric running shoes that looked the same as regular shoes but let you run twice as fast that might change.


Are these legal in the Olympics? I could beat Bolt in theses


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

langster831 said:


> Are these legal in the Olympics? I could beat Bolt in theses


I am really sick of all the HATE from the analog shoe lovers.

Once they try electric motorized shoes they will never go back. Electric motorized shoes will replace analog shoes because they are more fun. I wore my electric motorized shoes to a local hipster coffee house and some Olympic sprinters just couldn't stop talking about them.

https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/electric-motorized-shoes/


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

I bet those things piss off a lot of bladers


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Harryman said:


> Yeah, it's massive. I doubt anyone buying one is even remotely thinking about the weight. Considering they're just getting into the mid drive market, they have some interesting products, they can do small and light too.
> 
> https://electrek.co/2018/05/07/new-bafang-powertrain-lightweight-electric-road-bikes/
> 
> ...


Wow. My Jam2 has the forced air ducts in the head tubes, but is only 70nm of torque. Any previous mtbr is (should) be completely fine with this level of assist. I do wish I had headlight integration though.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> The big question is still the first word in the OP's question..... "if"
> 
> I honestly do not believe that eBikes will become more mainstream than pedal bikes for trail riding.
> 
> ...


Interesting information and also interesting that many in the mountain biking community make the same comments against ebikes as the Sierra club uses against mountain bikers.

That was the purpose of the thread I dug up in the other forum, ebikers and mountain bikers should be working together to fight this type of nonsense from groups like the Sierra club. But as can be seen by the content of this forum that seems to be an impossibility.

But hey at least the Sierra club is supportive of ebikes, just not on the trails, so maybe they are not that bad of an organization after all.


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> The big question is still the first word in the OP's question..... "if"
> 
> I honestly do not believe that eBikes will become more mainstream than pedal bikes for trail riding.
> 
> ...


I bought my eBike for commuting; I need suspension to protect my arthritic SI joint. Getting to ride the trails at South Mountain is icing on the cake.

For commuting, the eBike is wonderful; today riding home into a stiff headwind at 19 mph I passed a suffering roadie - last year that was me on every windy day. I imagine I'll be able to extend my riding to almost every hot summer day. My previous decision criteria was a heat index forecast of less than 105 but I'll probably get by in hotter weather just by upping the assist level.

The Sierra Club are extremists; I worked with a Sierra Club member who fantasized putting caltrops on trails to deter mountain bikers and that before there was even a travel plan and the trails were open to dirt bikes.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

hikerdave said:


> The Sierra Club are extremists; I worked with a Sierra Club member who fantasized putting caltrops on trails to deter mountain bikers and that before there was even a travel plan and the trails were open to dirt bikes.


I have read here and some other sites where mountain bikers are wanting to throw down and attack ebikers, what do we call those folks? Wanting to physically attack someone over a bike that's nuts.

So maybe we should hope ebike never become the norm for mountain bikes given how it may turn out just like hikers against bikers already is.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> I have read here and some other sites where mountain bikers are wanting to throw down and attack ebikers, what do we call those folks? Wanting to physically attack someone over a bike that's nuts.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Cornfield said:


>


Damn you! You made me post here. Lol!


----------



## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Cornfield said:


> nonsense gif


LOL!!!! sorry that information bothers you so much.

Go read some comments sections on pinkbike it is even more toxic than here. There you will see people threatening others if they dare ride an ebike on their trails.

Even here you occasionally read someone saying the would like to punch someone that is riding an ebike.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

jcd46 said:


> Damn you! You made me post here. Lol!


Blame it on Chaz, lol!

Ebikers are gonna ebike, it's just when they post click-bait threads I sometimes get reeled in.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Even here you occasionally read someone saying the would like to punch someone that is riding an ebike.


I've followed quite a few ebike threads here, haven't seen anything like that yet.

And yeah, it's really toxic over here with a lot of you ebikers trying to make everyone who doesn't support you = haters.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

hikerdave said:


> For commuting, the eBike is wonderful; today riding home into a stiff headwind at 19 mph I passed a suffering roadie - last year that was me on every windy day.


Yes, some people are suffering in a bad way into a headwind but just as many others are thinking about how good it's when they turn around and go the other direction. Most roadies I know actually enjoy the suffering, it's why we're out there.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I think you can sufferfest on anything you ride or do. Just depends how deep you want to go.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> I think you can sufferfest on anything you ride or do. Just depends how deep you want to go.


No doubt, but many, including the person I quoted buy ebikes to avoid the suffering. Nothing wrong with that, I was just saying don't shed any tears for me because I'm still plodding along on my"analog" bike.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> No doubt, but many, including the person I quoted buy ebikes to avoid the suffering. Nothing wrong with that, I was just saying don't shed any tears for me because I'm still plodding along on my MFB.


Ftfy.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Harryman, you seem to be a huge resource for ebike technology. You sure got your finger on the pulse. I'm curious, hear of any stories in which efficiency and range is hyped, even if it's designed for the road? I'm turned off by the extra power and torque. Affordability and compactness is also a plus, and keeping mass low & centralized and delicate components protected is a must. I suppose natural feeling pedal-assist is also a strong plus.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Cornfield said:


> I've followed quite a few ebike threads here, haven't seen anything like that yet.
> 
> And yeah, it's really toxic over here with a lot of you ebikers trying to make everyone who doesn't support you = haters.


Thread: future of ebikes on trails
by rideit Replies
193
Views
3,204

A good place to start would be to arbitrarily electrocute people riding single track on modified e-bikes.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

figofspee said:


> Thread: future of ebikes on trails
> by rideit Replies
> 193
> Views
> ...


That's not from mtbr.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

jcd46 said:


> That's not from mtbr.


It is, and rideit was obviously joking.

Or maybe he's already gotten his hands on a cattle prod or taser or something. :lol:

*Also note that he said "modified e-bikes."


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

rideit said:


> A good place to start would be to arbitrarily electrocute people riding single track on modified e-bikes.


I would never cheat on mtbr with another forum


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Cornfield said:


> It is, and rideit was obviously joking.
> 
> Or maybe he's already gotten his hands on a cattle prod or taser or something. :lol:
> 
> *Also note that he said "modified e-bikes."


oh the old joking backtrack. It is even more toxic if that is your idea of a joke.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

figofspee said:


> I would never cheat on mtbr with another forum


My bad on that, didn't recognized the user.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

figofspee said:


> oh the old joking backtrack. It is even more toxic if that is your idea of a joke.


Not my idea of a joke, I didn't post it. And if you really think he was serious then I don't know what to tell you, I've never had to deal with someone like you before, I'm at a loss for words really.

If it's so toxic then why are you here?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

jcd46 said:


> My bad on that, didn't recognized the user.


When I first read it I read it as reddit. Comments seemed to fit as well.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Cornfield said:


> I've followed quite a few ebike threads here, haven't seen anything like that yet.
> 
> And yeah, it's really toxic over here with a lot of you ebikers trying to make everyone who doesn't support you = haters.


I saw one here just yesterday where someone mentioned their friends wanted to throw down with some e-bikers they were talking to on a trail. I can't find the post sorry.

Yes if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it generally is a duck. So yes many here are haters, this is not the only place where those types of views are expressed. But hey if you(royal you) want to be like the Sierra club members many here are doing a good job of it.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)




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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Cornfield said:


> Not my idea of a joke, I didn't post it. And if you really think he was serious then I don't know what to tell you, I've never had to deal with someone like you before, I'm at a loss for words really.
> 
> If it's so toxic then why are you here?


Well you interpreted it as a joke, or did rideit give you information secretly. Nothing indicates it was a joke and based on rideits other anti ebike rants he seams like the type of person to back up such a statement.

You have never met someone like me because I believe what people write as something other than sarcasm? Rough life if you have never met a straight shooter like myself.

I didn't say mtbr is toxic, but the anti-ebikers sure are.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Cornfield said:


>


Hey maybe try an eBike it might lift your spirits a bit.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

tuckerjt07 said:


> When I first read it I read it as reddit. Comments seemed to fit as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


That's exactly what I read. Plus the cpy and paste threw me off.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> The big question is still the first word in the OP's question..... "if"
> 
> I honestly do not believe that eBikes will become more mainstream than pedal bikes for trail riding.
> 
> ...


God, it sounds like they are some anthropologists taking a toothbrush to the trail, like there is some fossil that will take a month to extract. This isn't the Tetons, it's semi-arid scrub/chaparral that's frankly boring as hell. I feel bad for the ecologists that have to study a bunch of natural weeds that all look the same. And I love how they put mountain bikes in the same sentence right after coyote scat, major Freudian slip. It would be different if they were in a very beautiful area with a lot of different natural features that a ranger or guide needed to explain. Like Arches, or Yellowstone, or Yosemite. The area Klurejr and myself are in needs no explanation, you just hike or bike it, period.

As a former hiker, voluntarily retired due to mountain biking, I've hiked thousands of miles all over the Western US, started hiking when I was around 5 years old, and I never had a problem with a bike being on a trail, ever. Never, ever thought that a bike ruined a trail, long before I even thought about getting a mountain bike. Sure, I've seen what happens in hairpin turns/switchbacks after it rains, there are ruts from bikes, is that going to completely ruin a hiking experience? Of course not, at least for a normal person. I understand that groups like the Sierra Club mean well, my dad has been a long-time member, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and there is been a nasty backlash against political correctness lately that just ends up making everything worse anyway. They don't even understand that their perfectionist stance can actually hurt things on a larger level. Moderation is the best philosophy.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yes, some people are suffering in a bad way into a headwind but just as many others are thinking about how good it's when they turn around and go the other direction. Most roadies I know actually enjoy the suffering, it's why we're out there.


I think of solo riders on triathlon bikes as penants working off the sins of a past life. In the past I rode long distances; my farthest was 130 miles at the end of a trip with camping gear so I'm familiar with the endorphin-junkie lifestyle. But that's not me anymore; I turn up the assist level when the wind is strong or the hill is steep.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

hikerdave said:


> I think of solo riders on triathlon bikes as penants working off the sins of a past life. In the past I rode long distances; my farthest was 130 miles at the end of a trip with camping gear so I'm familiar with the endorphin-junkie lifestyle. But that's not me anymore; I turn up the assist level when the wind is strong or the hill is steep.


Right on, we all ride for different reasons, but we all share a common bond, so let's all be friendly to our fellow cyclists and throw a wave. No matter how fast or strong you may think you are, there's always someone faster.
Im guessing if we took all the posters here and gathered at a trailhead and rode, we'd have a great time (unless half forgot to plug in, jk!!!) and I know a few would maybe join me at the pub after.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

hikerdave said:


> I think of solo riders on triathlon bikes as penants working off the sins of a past life. In the past I rode long distances; my farthest was 130 miles at the end of a trip with camping gear so I'm familiar with the endorphin-junkie lifestyle. But that's not me anymore; I turn up the assist level when the wind is strong or the hill is steep.


Nothing wrong with that, only a very small percentage of the population actually enjoys pedaling IME. Just saying that It's unnecessary to project your feelings about it to the "suffering" roadie because they could probably afford an electric bike if that's what they wanted.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cornfield said:


> Ftfy.


Yeah, that's what I meant to say.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Right on, we all ride for different reasons, but we all share a common bond, so let's all be friendly to our fellow cyclists and throw a wave. No matter how fast or strong you may think you are, there's always someone faster.
> Im guessing if we took all the posters here and gathered at a trailhead and rode, we'd have a great time (unless half forgot to plug in, jk!!!) and I know a few would maybe join me at the pub after.


What is the common bond? 2 wheels seems inadequate.

I do give a wave to everyone on 2 wheels I pass for some reason though.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

hikerdave said:


> I think of solo riders on triathlon bikes as penants working off the sins of a past life. In the past I rode long distances; my farthest was 130 miles at the end of a trip with camping gear so I'm familiar with the endorphin-junkie lifestyle. But that's not me anymore; I turn up the assist level when the wind is strong or the hill is steep.


Same here. I've done over 5 century rides with my longest being 126 miles and have done my share of XC and winter fat bike racing. After injuries to my ankles and shoulders that have taken me out of riding for so long i lost almost all of my strength, i no longer want to push my limit higher and higher on what i can do physically. I just want to have fun


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> What is the common bond? 2 wheels seems inadequate.
> 
> I do give a wave to everyone on 2 wheels I pass for some reason though.


The common bond is the release and the rush.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

AC/BC said:


> Same here. I've done over 5 century rides with my longest being 126 miles and have done my share of XC and winter fat bike racing. After injuries to my ankles and shoulders that have taken me out of riding for so long i lost almost all of my strength, i no longer want to push my limit higher and higher on what i can do physically. I just want to have fun


At the end of the day, it's all about fun. None of us getting paid!!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> The common bond is the release and the rush.


Assuming we're talking about cycling here, the release and rush doesn't occur for me until I buzz the red zone a few times. No sufferage=no rush.

Everyone has their own version of what's fun.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Assuming we're talking about cycling here, the release and rush doesn't occur for me until I buzz the red zone a few times. No sufferage=no rush.


Same here. There is something about the pure pain of getting the bike up the hill on your own power, and then getting to go down. For some reason, I keep coming back for more.

I am currently not in great shape, and would be a prime candidate for an electric bike. But absolutely not going there. I'm just going to get out more, and get my fitness back.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

My rush is when I blow up on the first climb and my release is at the pub after pissing out the 6 pack!! Jk- maybe.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Assuming we're talking about cycling here, the release and rush doesn't occur for me until I buzz the red zone a few times. No sufferage=no rush.
> 
> Everyone has their own version of what's fun.


Endorphin vs Adrenaline. I've been addicted to both. A lifetime of hang gliding, downhill skiing, motor cycling, whitewater kayaking and the like has made me pretty insensitive to the adrenaline rush, though. (I keep it all dialed back on the trail especially when on the trail; when I go fast it's mostly for that feeling of flow, or mental concentration - same thing can be achieved by shooting a bow.)

Soccer is the best for endorphins; there's nothing like a spirited 90 minute game with no substitutes.


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## geraldooka (Jul 3, 2012)

Harryman said:


> The Industry line is that they're just like a mtb, but you simply get a little assist. Great for the old and infirm. They roll out an essentially 250w EU spec emtb as an example of what people will be riding and completely ignore that the laws (that they wrote!) allow 750w ebikes with much higher torque. And, "a little assist" is subjective, current 250w provide up to @750w, and 750w ebikes @1500w. Even current 250w emtbs provide far more than a little help while climbing, and as we've seen each model year will release models that will be more powerful and have greater range. Emtbs people are riding now are nothing like what we'll see here in the US, in the future.
> 
> They will be more like this:
> 
> ...


Drop the mike.

Pretty much covered it all. The reality is it's impossible to predict exactly what is going to happen it's like trying to predict the smartphone industry. Anyone remember Apple saying they weren't going to make a personal digital assistant? A complete waste of time.

We can safely assume everything in this post is and will happen and many more things we cannot predict.

They are simple two unique activities one an athletic sport and the other a Motorsport.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ninjichor said:


> Harryman, you seem to be a huge resource for ebike technology. You sure got your finger on the pulse. I'm curious, hear of any stories in which efficiency and range is hyped, even if it's designed for the road? I'm turned off by the extra power and torque. Affordability and compactness is also a plus, and keeping mass low & centralized and delicate components protected is a must. I suppose natural feeling pedal-assist is also a strong plus.


Some road bike systems, not commuting bike stuff, are pushing for a bike that rides like a heavier road bike, with a completely decoupled motor available only when you need it on a long climb. So, smaller battery, smaller motor and you provide most of the range. Like the Fazua system, which is pretty slick. Not cheap though.

You could easily DIY a system with a small hub motor, and small battery as well. Same idea, just use it when you really need it.

On emtbs, range is simply being increased with bigger batteries. I haven't heard of any motor manufacturer touting efficiency really. Lighter weight, better heat dispersion, and higher torque is what they're selling.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Ah dang. Thanks for the response. Guess I'll wait for prices to come down, and geo to reach enthusiast level, unless someone makes a dropper that has "forward offset", so I can upsize and cut down a ETT being a couple inches longer than I'm used to. xD


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> Blame it on Chaz, lol!


Again?!


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Absolutely. 

I'd still want a dead simple rigid single speed just cause and also a dirt jumper.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

chazpat said:


> Again?!


Sorry, I guess once was enough and it's on me now for entering into the no humor zone.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

figofspee said:


> Well you interpreted it as a joke, or did rideit give you information secretly.


We are both from the planet Zenoan, separated at birth, but have somehow ended up on the same internet forum. We were given the task of searching out humans who don't abide by the universal modification protocols which govern all motor usage in this galaxy. We were supposed to use electric shock as a means of punishment to those who have chosen to modify their motors, so in a way he was serious, but since 2011 we've updated our policy. The overlords had decided electric shock was too severe and we should only resort to name calling and shaming as a way to reduce the modification of electric motors.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^Allow me to pack you another one! Hilarious!! I like your humor. I once rode a Powell & Peralta skateboard with “bones” on the bottom of the deck. Actually street skated with the whole team in Toronto including Tony. Good times


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Gutch said:


> ^Allow me to pack you another one! Hilarious!! I like your humor. I once rode a Powell & Peralta skateboard with "bones" on the bottom of the deck. Actually street skated with the whole team in Toronto including Tony. Good times


He wanted to know the truth.

Good times for sure! I wish I had some convenient bowls/ramps to skate nearby, I miss transitions.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

seamarsh said:


> I don't own an ebike but I'll venture to say that in 10-15 years they might very well outnumber peddle bikes. Think batteries will get smaller, tech will get better/lighter and it will be hard to tell the difference riding one vs other. This is just a gut feeling and probably totally wrong.
> 
> There will always be peddlers though! Don't see that changing


You're not totally wrong, you're totally right.

As ebike tech grows so will popularity and sales. Ebikes will own the majority of bike sales in 10-15 years. Traditionalists (anti ebikers) will always pedal, but traditionalist won't live forever and the popularity of pedal bikes will eventually fade away to today's younger generation. It's just a matter of time before ebikes win the war of attrition.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

There are rumblings in my regular riding group about getting e-bikes. There are three to six of us who ride each week and we are roughly the same in ascending fitness and have slightly different descending abilities (youngest quickest/bravest/stupidest). One tested an e-bike recently, he left us behind on the flats and climbs, and we went ahead on the descents. So it upset the group dynamic. Sure if you're in a big group with a range of abilities or may not matter so much, it could get someone less fit keep with the acoustic whippets. But what happens when the whippets get e-bikes?

What happens then one of group turns up on their new e-bike? It's not his fault your throttle is between the cranks.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

ALimon said:


> You're not totally wrong, you're totally right.
> 
> As ebike tech grows so will popularity and sales. Ebikes will own the majority of bike sales in 10-15 years. Traditionalists (anti ebikers) will always pedal, but traditionalist won't live forever and the popularity of pedal bikes will eventually fade away to today's younger generation. It's just a matter of time before ebikes win the war of attrition.


I believe the majority of bike sales in the US are what most of us refer to as BSOs, *mart bikes that sell for around $150 or less. Though I'm sure ebikes will show up more and more in Walmart type places, I doubt the price will ever get low enough to completely change that. Probably some commuters who only ride because they have to will save up for a big box ebike and plenty of people will buy them, but most people will continue to buy the less expensive BSOs, especially for their kids. But at some point, they very well could become the next big fad and every kid will find one under the Christmas tree. I'm guessing this will be when they are commonly seen in the $500 price range. This is when they will quickly hit the trails everywhere and we will quickly start losing access; maybe some places will try to just ban ebikes but it may be too late and difficult and they will just ban all bikes, especially if ebikes are the majority. Hopefully the fad will fade out quickly just like the hoverboards. I doubt the price of the true emtbs will ever drop enough to own the majority of sales.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

ALimon said:


> You're not totally wrong, you're totally right.
> 
> As ebike tech grows so will popularity and sales. Ebikes will own the majority of bike sales in 10-15 years. Traditionalists (anti ebikers) will always pedal, but traditionalist won't live forever and the popularity of pedal bikes will eventually fade away to today's younger generation. It's just a matter of time before ebikes win the war of attrition.


I don't think so. Most people view bicycles as toys and the extra cost of the battery and motor are a huge barrier; it's not easy to convince someone to avoid buying that BSO they saw at Costco and go to an actual bike shop.

The people buying eBikes will be old and affluent or cycling enthusiasts with a few exceptions such as downhill-oriented riders who want to avoid the logistics of shuttling.

The article I'll link below, which compares Ebike adoption in Europe and the USA states 35 percent of Fox OEM sales in Europe go to eBikes; I'm guessing that in the USA that would top out at 25 percent or less for reasons mentioned in the article such as more enthusiasm for cycling and an older population in Europe relative to the USA.

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/uncategorized/europes-warm-embrace-of-electric-assisted-cycling/


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)




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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

I don't ever hear about trail access issues in Europe...

If eBikes were causing so much damage and frightening people, causing accidents with their "excessive" speed, then I believe this would currently be an issue you'd hear about in Europe. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Also - i was on a UK bike website and they were selling eBikes and including derestricting devices WITH all bike purchases. This was clearly advertised on the website... This was a LBS. LoL!!!


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

Also it's false that eBike owners arn't chipping in and are "lazy"
Several of the dirt bosses and trail builders in my area own eBikes. These guys have been riding for years and have recently bought eBikes and are pro-eBike :thumbsup:


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

AC/BC said:


> I don't ever hear about trail access issues in Europe...


If you're interested in understanding some of the differences between the EU and USA electric motor bicycle trail access issues/electric motor bicycle usage, here's some homework for you:

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/uncategorized/europes-warm-embrace-of-electric-assisted-cycling/

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gea...ikes-are-big-in-europe-but-not-north-america/


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

AC/BC said:


> I don't ever hear about trail access issues in Europe...
> 
> If eBikes were causing so much damage and frightening people, causing accidents with their "excessive" speed, then I believe this would currently be an issue you'd hear about in Europe. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> Also - i was on a UK bike website and they were selling eBikes and including derestricting devices WITH all bike purchases. This was clearly advertised on the website... This was a LBS. LoL!!!


 Hmmm, yes all the land use issues, private property, right to roam and horse access issues are exactly the same across the pond as here.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

chazpat said:


> I believe the majority of bike sales in the US are what most of us refer to as BSOs, *mart bikes that sell for around $150 or less. Though I'm sure ebikes will show up more and more in Walmart type places, I doubt the price will ever get low enough to completely change that. Probably some commuters who only ride because they have to will save up for a big box ebike and plenty of people will buy them, but most people will continue to buy the less expensive BSOs, especially for their kids. But at some point, they very well could become the next big fad and every kid will find one under the Christmas tree. I'm guessing this will be when they are commonly seen in the $500 price range. This is when they will quickly hit the trails everywhere and we will quickly start losing access; maybe some places will try to just ban ebikes but it may be too late and difficult and they will just ban all bikes, especially if ebikes are the majority. Hopefully the fad will fade out quickly just like the hoverboards. I doubt the price of the true emtbs will ever drop enough to own the majority of sales.


Affordability is a five letter word. C H I N A! I don't think I've seen a full knock off emtb as of yet. But I'm sure the Chinese have something in the works.

In 2003 my 50" Pioneer Plasma cost 11k. 15 years later it's $500. Ebikes are pricey because they're new. Give it some time and the costs will be affordable for most.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

leeboh said:


> Hmmm, yes all the land use issues, private property, right to roam and horse access issues are exactly the same across the pond as here.


They also have a higher density of people per square mile. The fact that many European countries have a more liberal land use policy, enhances AC/BC's point about how you creating safety concerns out of thin air.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

So Lemonaid (OP) : Since this is your thread and you haven’t posted, what would you do?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

People are people and riders are riders no matter where you live. The behaviors of riders in the EU, should not be different than here in the US. Although I’m sure access issues can’t be compared apples to apples.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

og-mtb said:


> If you're interested in understanding some of the differences between the EU and USA electric motor bicycle trail access issues/electric motor bicycle usage, here's some homework for you:
> 
> https://www.singletracks.com/blog/uncategorized/europes-warm-embrace-of-electric-assisted-cycling/
> 
> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gea...ikes-are-big-in-europe-but-not-north-america/


What i mean is trail conflict on multi-use trails. I think the anti-eBike people in the US have worked themselves up into a frenzy about trail damage and people on eBikes running people off the trails. I dont think that will be the case. Ebikes are in fact probably safer than standard bikes - bigger, more aggressive and grippier tires, not weight weenie, fast rolling tires. Big, powerful brakes with no concern for shedding grams. Same goes for suspension, longer travel that handle bumps better.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Gutch said:


> People are people and riders are riders no matter where you live. The behaviors of riders in the EU, should not be different than here in the US. Although I'm sure access issues can't be compared apples to apples.


A good indicator would be to see how many places have ended up banning eBikes and regular bikes after explicitly allowing eBikes. Another stat to look for is how many places have allowed quads and motorcycles because of eBikes. You would think it happens daily based on the posters here


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

og-mtb said:


> If you're interested in understanding some of the differences between the EU and USA electric motor bicycle trail access issues/electric motor bicycle usage, here's some homework for you:
> 
> https://www.singletracks.com/blog/uncategorized/europes-warm-embrace-of-electric-assisted-cycling/
> 
> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gea...ikes-are-big-in-europe-but-not-north-america/


The difference between Europe and the US is that politicians here in the states pride themselves on having a more hands off system of government then over in the 'socialist' EU. When you present the fact that the 'oppressive' EU allows them without serious incidents it emboldens the claim on tyrannical government overreach by the feds.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

figofspee said:


> A good indicator would be to see how many places have ended up banning eBikes and regular bikes after explicitly allowing eBikes. Another stat to look for is how many places have allowed quads and motorcycles because of eBikes. You would think it happens daily based on the posters here


I know right. Innocent til proven guilty? Not so for ebikes on trails. You can't or shouldn't waste your time trying to justify ebikes to the anti-radical ebike posters on here. Waste of time. There is however some fellow riders that are NOT into ebikes, but aren't jack*****, about it. And that's totally cool, I don't particularly care for fatbikes, but I'm not gonna slam every fat bike rider! If we ride legal on legal ebikes than who gives a ****?


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

AC/BC said:


> What i mean is trail conflict on multi-use trails.


Ah. Access is different than conflict.



AC/BC said:


> I think the anti-eBike people in the US have worked themselves up into a frenzy about trail damage and people on eBikes running people off the trails.


I think that broad generalizations about groups of people are nonsensical.

I also think that many folks who have concerns about electric motor bicycles and their impacts on trail access don't base their concerns on potential trail damage and people being run off the trails.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

Gutch said:


> *If we ride legal on legal ebikes* than who gives a ****?


Not me.

Sadly, that's not the case.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

og-mtb said:


> Sadly, that's not the case.





og-mtb said:


> I think that broad generalizations about groups of people are nonsensical.


 Please tell me you see the irony here?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

AC/BC said:


> What i mean is trail conflict on multi-use trails. I think the anti-eBike people in the US have worked themselves up into a frenzy about trail damage and people on eBikes running people off the trails. I dont think that will be the case. Ebikes are in fact probably safer than standard bikes - bigger, more aggressive and grippier tires, not weight weenie, fast rolling tires. Big, powerful brakes with no concern for shedding grams. Same goes for suspension, longer travel that handle bumps better.


Here is one of our most popular parks on a Sunday morning.......yes, it is an issue.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Please tell me you see the irony here?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


There is no irony in noting that not all electric motor bikers ride on legal trails and/or ride legal electric motors bikes.

It's a comment about a some of the electric motor bikers, not an observation about all electric motor bikers.

HTH


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

og-mtb said:


> Ah. Access is different than conflict.
> 
> I think that broad generalizations about groups of people are nonsensical.
> 
> I also think that many folks who have concerns about electric motor bicycles and their impacts on trail access don't base their concerns on potential trail damage and people being run off the trails.


Than what do you base your Trail Access argument if not on "Trail damage" or "Bad behavior" wth is left? Buncha BS.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

og-mtb said:


> There is no irony in noting that not all electric motor bikers ride on legal trails and/or ride legal electric motors bikes.
> 
> It's a comment about a some of the electric motor bikers, not an observation about all electric motor bikers.
> 
> HTH


As I expected.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

figofspee said:


> The difference between Europe and the US is that politicians here in the states pride themselves on having a more hands off system of government then over in the 'socialist' EU. When you present the fact that the 'oppressive' EU allows them without serious incidents it emboldens the claim on tyrannical government overreach by the feds.


If you're going to compare them, how are you coming with that campaign to get the US to adopt the European standards? Btw, Gutch is going to be fighting against you!


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

Gutch said:


> Than what do you base your Trail Access argument if not on "Trail damage" or "Bad behavior" wth is left? Buncha BS.


Hey Mr. I Whined That I Put You On Ignore But I Have No Self-Control So I keep Responding,

It's not just my "Trail Access argument" - the concern is shared by many folks and is founded in years of advocacy work to preserve and/or expand access to singletrack in the face of anti-bike land managers, hikers, and equestrians.

As previously noted:

Based on my advocacy experience (i.e. sitting across the table from hiker and equestrian advocates) two wheels with a motor is a major issue vs. two wheels that are human powered.

That's the reason why we have maintained and/or expanded access locally - human powered vs. motors.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mtnbikej said:


> Here is one of our most popular parks on a Sunday morning.......yes, it is an issue.


Looks like a tourist attraction. I'd ride elsewhere, or move.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Looks like a tourist attraction. I'd ride elsewhere, or move.


Actually, not unusual for SoCal that's why behaving on the trail is so important. When I own my own land, I will have my own rules.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

I'm happy this thread hasn't turning into a mud slinging fest like most other threads, and the discussion is really quite informative. MTBR has really progressed. I've read through most of the comments and it'll be interesting revisiting this thread in 10 years or so to see how much of what was said become true.

In my opinion I envision one of two scenarios happening *if* emtbs ubiquitous with mountain biking. Either they are allowed in on the same trails as regular mtbs are today and there is no further issues (a long shot IMO) or trail access to mtb's as a whole is determined by how much tolerance there is for emtbs. Where some access is lost due to emtb's causing issues with non biking community. (the more likely scenario)

In either case I could see a case for riding both emtb's and analogue bike. You may even see a resurgence in analogue riders like when riding single speed was a thing. Who knows what the future will bring.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

og-mtb said:


> Hey Mr. I Whined That I Put You On Ignore But I Have No Self-Control So I keep Responding,
> 
> It's not just my "Trail Access argument" - the concern is shared by many folks and is founded in years of advocacy work to preserve and/or expand access to singletrack in the face of anti-bike land managers, hikers, and equestrians.
> 
> ...


Blah blah blah. Same speech new poster. Any concrete evidence of emtbs closing down what was once mtb only trails? The sky is not falling. There is literally 1,000's of miles that ebikes are currently riding and have been riding on and yet how many trail closures?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

jcd46 said:


> Actually, not unusual for SoCal that's why behaving on the trail is so important. When I own my own land, I will have my own rules.


Which is why I would move. I understand, I'm lucky that my profession would allow me to easily do so but where there is a will there is always a way.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

Can't Ignore said:


> Same speech new poster.


????? It's the same thing that I've posted before. What's this "new poster" nonsense about?



Can't Ignore said:


> There is literally 1,000's of miles that ebikes are currently riding and have been riding on and yet how many trail closures?


If those 1,000's of miles are electric motor bicycle legal then why would they be at risk of being closed?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

jcd46 said:


> Actually, not unusual for SoCal that's why behaving on the trail is so important. When I own my own land, I will have my own rules.





tuckerjt07 said:


> Which is why I would move. I understand, I'm lucky that my profession would allow me to easily do so but where there is a will there is always a way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Which is why I'm against blanket "ebikes should be allowed anywhere bicycles are allowed" arguments. Situations vary; ebikes are ok on some trails but not all trails.

With Bentonville looking to become a destination and allowing ebikes and the predictions that ebikes will become the majority, you may find you either have to move or buy an ebike to avoid having to constantly pull over to let an ebike pass. Unless the trails are wide enough to easily allow passing; the trails around me aren't.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

chazpat said:


> Which is why I'm against blanket "ebikes should be allowed anywhere bicycles are allowed" arguments. Situations vary; ebikes are ok on some trails but not all trails.
> 
> With Bentonville looking to become a destination and allowing ebikes and the predictions that ebikes will become the majority, you may find you either have to move or buy an ebike to avoid having to constantly pull over to let an ebike pass. Unless the trails are wide enough to easily allow passing; the trails around me aren't.


The trails I like to ride I don't have to worry about that. Also, as a rule it would not be a problem here. I'm not for blanket access either. The inverse of that is also true.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtnbikej said:


> Here is one of our most popular parks on a Sunday morning.......yes, it is an issue.


Ugghhh...my condolences...


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Gutch said:


> People are people and riders are riders no matter where you live. The behaviors of riders in the EU, should not be different than here in the US. Although I'm sure access issues can't be compared apples to apples.


I was skiing with a French guy in Jackson Hole who told me that the alternating line system in use on that crowded powder day would never work in Europe; he was amazed at our orderly conduct.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

Can't Ignore said:


> It proves, we can co-exist


If that's your argument, then you should be making your case with land managers, hikers, equestrians, etc. to open new trails to electric motor bicycles. Let folks know how that goes.

Your comment is a bit of a non-sequitur since different groups obviously co-exist in some places.

Again, my concerns are about areas where mountain bikes successfully co-exist with hikers and equestrians by dint of being non-motorized.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

chazpat said:


> If you're going to compare them, how are you coming with that campaign to get the US to adopt the European standards? Btw, Gutch is going to be fighting against you!


Wonderfully! I don't know where you got that I want European standards, as they are fairly repressive but the cpsc that has already passed Congress allows for up to 750watts and that is a good place to start. Pardon me if I have no idea what Post of mine you are referring to, but please, in the future, rather then derail a topic start another thread and include the post of mine you are referring to. Also, how is the campaign going to equate eBikes with motor vehicles? It seems like most states/towns that have made a law regarding eBikes within the last few years have voted to exclude eBikes from motor vehicle status.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> Also, how is the campaign going to equate eBikes with motor vehicles? It seems like most states/towns that have made a law regarding eBikes within the last few years have voted to exclude eBikes from motor vehicle status.


It may seem like that to you but I'm aware of a number of local parks in my area that have excluded electric motor bicycles because they classify them as motorized.

There are even more examples from the last few years if you are able to use Google.

For example:

"Local mountain bike alliance EMBA were part of the team behind the bill which sees e-bikesbanned unless land managers specify otherwise.

In a story from Washington State's Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance (EMBA) highlights news of an e-bike legislation bill passed by the House and the Senate. This bill restricts use on "natural surface trails".
EMBA state: "The end result is that e-bikes are not allowed on natural surface trails, unless signed or stated open by the managing jurisdiction."
As well as effectively banning e-bikes from singletrack the bill also defines what Washington State are to categorise what an e-bike actually is. And unlike in the UK, where e-bikes are limited to 25 kph (15.5 mph), Washington State e-bikes are split into three classes.
Class 1 can go up to 32 kph (20 mph) with e-assist only while pedalling. Class 2 have the same speed restriction but are throttle electric bikes not e-assist e-bikes. Class 1 and 2 electric bikes are allowed on roads and bike lanes and on "paved trails". They are not allowed on "natural surface trails" (unless specified by land manager).
Class 3 can go up to 45 kph (28 mph) with e-assist only while pedalling. However, Class 3 bikes don't appear to be allowed anywhere other than private land.

The bill also requires "prominent labelling" of all e-bikes. Including classification number, top assisted speed and wattage.
EMBA's reasons for helping with the billThe EMBA were actually part of a collective described as "non-motorized recreation groups" that helped with the wording of the legislation. EMBA wanted to encourage "clear distinction between e-bike use on paved trails vs. natural surface trails".
Having a mountain bike association seem partly responsible for banning e-bikes may seem confusing to UK and European riders but the scene is very different in the USA.
Essentially, EMBA wanted to be part of the brokering of the bill to prevent a total ban on all types bicycles on "natural surface trails" further down the line.
EMBA: "We are satisfied with the outcome of this initial legislation, as it addresses a critical need for urban bike commuters, and gives land managers specific authority to implement e-bike policies.

"How e-bike use is regulated is crucial to Evergreen for several reasons [&#8230;] Potential loss of trail access if land managers choose to close trails to all "bikes" because e-bikes are now defined as bicycles
"It remains crucial to monitor the actual use and implementation of this legislation. While its passage ends the 'free-for-all' e-bike use on roads and paved paths through regulation, there is still work to be done on how this relates to mountain biking, and we have concerns on how this bill defines 'natural surface trails'.""

https://www.mbr.co.uk/news/trail_news/e-bikes-ban-372650


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

og-mtb said:


> It may seem like that to you but I'm aware of a number of local parks in my area that have excluded electric motor bicycles because they classify them as motorized.
> 
> There are even more examples from the last few years if you are able to use Google.
> 
> ...


I don't live on the West Coast so this does not directly affect me but when fellow bikers start sounding like Sierra club folks and acting to exclude a user group that becomes a serious concern.

At least EMBA did not say something like "ebikers are not banned just their ebikes, ebikers are free to use the trails they just have to use a non-ebike".


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> but when fellow bikers start sounding like Sierra club folks and acting to exclude a user group .


Everybody should be able to do everything, with whatever they want, however they want, where ever they want. If not someone is being excluded, oh the horror.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

og-mtb said:


> It may seem like that to you but I'm aware of a number of local parks in my area that have excluded electric motor bicycles because they classify them as motorized.
> 
> There are even more examples from the last few years if you are able to use Google.
> 
> ...


Good work on proving my point about eBikes moving away from motor vehicle status. The very first sentence from Evergreen:
WA's electric-assisted bicycle (e-bike) legislation bill (SB 6434) defines e-bikes as a type of bicycle (not as a motorized vehicle).

https://www.evergreenmtb.org/blog/ebike-legislation-passes-in-wa-senate-and-house


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

karthur said:


> Everybody should be able to do everything, with whatever they want, however they want, where ever they want. If not someone is being excluded, oh the horror.


Seems you would fit in really nice with the Sierra club since that seems to be their attitude as well.

The new idea it seems:
"ebikers are not banned just their ebikes, ebikers are free to use the trails they just have to use a non-ebike".


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> Seems you would fit in really nice with the Sierra club since that seems to be their attitude as well.


*What do you say to people on dirt bikes, atvs or the increasingly popular UTVs?*


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

figofspee said:


> Good work on proving my point about eBikes moving away from motor vehicle status. The very first sentence from Evergreen:
> WA's electric-assisted bicycle (e-bike) legislation bill (SB 6434) defines e-bikes as a type of bicycle (not as a motorized vehicle).
> 
> https://www.evergreenmtb.org/blog/ebike-legislation-passes-in-wa-senate-and-house


Might want to read the actual legislation. While the Class 1-3 legislation define ebikes as not being Motor Vehicles, they're still considered motorized vehicles.

"Generally a person may not operate an electric-assisted bicycle on a trail that is designated as non-motorized and that has a natural surface, unless otherwise authorized by the state agency or local authority having jurisdiction over the trail."

http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bill Reports/Senate/6434-S.E SBR FBR 18.pdf


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> Seems you would fit in really nice with the Sierra club since that seems to be their attitude as well.
> 
> The new idea it seems:
> "ebikers are not banned just their ebikes, ebikers are free to use the trails they just have to use a non-ebike".


E-bikers posts are very dramatic. The posts read like this is one of our times greatest social problems.

One day e-biker's will be heralded for their valiant fight against discrimination and injustice by the evil MTB overlords.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

karthur said:


> *What do you say to people on dirt bikes, atvs or the increasingly popular UTVs?*


LOL!!! You know when I read responses like this I think of anti-gun people responding with "why not just own a nuclear weapon". What you have there is the equivalent overly dramatic type of question/response since you really don't want a discussion.

A e-bike is in no way shape or form equivalent to any of those items you listed and anyone not wanting to be dramatic knows that. Hell a ebike is not even equivalent to a 50cc motorbike let alone those dramatic examples.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

karthur said:


> E-bikers posts are very dramatic. The posts read like this is one of our times greatest social problems.
> 
> One day e-biker's will be heralded for their valiant fight against discrimination and injustice by the evil MTB overlords.


Gee seems I am hurting the feelings of those that don't like ebikes, sorry not sorry.

Sorry to tell you but yes folks like you sound just like Sierra club people that hate mountain bikers, it's the truth.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Harryman said:


> Might want to read the actual legislation. While the Class 1-3 legislation define ebikes as not being Motor Vehicles, they're still considered motorized vehicles.
> 
> "Generally a person may not operate an electric-assisted bicycle on a trail that is designated as non-motorized and that has a natural surface, unless otherwise authorized by the state agency or local authority having jurisdiction over the trail."
> 
> http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bill Reports/Senate/6434-S.E SBR FBR 18.pdf


Oh, I thought evergreen misquoted until I got to this point on your link:
Summary: Definitions. The definition of a bicycle is updated to include electric-assisted 
bicycles.

Do you want a bigger shovel for the hole you are digging?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

figofspee said:


> Oh, I thought evergreen misquoted until I got to this point on your link:
> Summary: Definitions. The definition of a bicycle is updated to include electric-assisted
> bicycles.
> 
> Do you want a bigger shovel for the hole you are digging?


Right, and the next line is:

"An electric-assisted bicycle's *motor*...."

And then they say you can ride "an electric assisted bicycle" on paved infrastructure, but specifically not on non-motorized natural surface trails. Which, if they considered it a non-motorized vehicle, they wouldn't include.

I've been involved with this legislation in Colorado with P4B and my state and local land managers, the difference between Motor Vehicle and motorized vehicle isn't that fuzzy to the people who make policy.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> A e-bike is in no way shape or form equivalent to any of those items you listed and anyone not wanting to be dramatic knows that.


The USFS, BLM, as well as many State and local jurisdictions disagree with you.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Cornfield said:


> We are both from the planet Zenoan, separated at birth, but have somehow ended up on the same internet forum. We were given the task of searching out humans who don't abide by the universal modification protocols which govern all motor usage in this galaxy. We were supposed to use electric shock as a means of punishment to those who have chosen to modify their motors, so in a way he was serious, but since 2011 we've updated our policy. The overlords had decided electric shock was too severe and we should only resort to name calling and shaming as a way to reduce the modification of electric motors.


No duh, I can spot Zenoans online all day long. I agree that electricity should not be used as punishment in general. However regarding e-bikes, I do believe that if the power from the battery was run through the rider's body and then to the motor, it would discourage excessive use of "turbo mode".


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> Good work on proving my point about eBikes moving away from motor vehicle status.


If that fantasy brings you comfort then I'm happy for you.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

og-mtb said:


> The USFS, BLM, as well as many State and local jurisdictions disagree with you.


If the USFS and BLM fully followed the law mountain bikes are just as equivalent since the key phrase is mechanical not motorized in the law.

Using technical terms like horse power, torque, noise etc... ebikes are in no way shape or form equivalent to the type of dramatic examples your ilk likes to use.

At this point I am almost rooting for the Sierra club and those types to swing the mechanical hammer to get all bikes removed just out of spite.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Harryman said:


> Right, and the next line is:
> 
> "An electric-assisted bicycle's *motor*...."
> 
> ...


Bigger shovel it is!


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

og-mtb said:


> If that fantasy brings you comfort then I'm happy for you.


Yes, me and the entire state of Wshington are the ones living in a fantasy land.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> If the USFS and BLM fully followed the law mountain bikes are just as equivalent since the key phrase is mechanical not motorized in the law.


What law are the USFS and BLM not following?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

And I see thread closure coming... Another trail Access derailment.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

og-mtb said:


> What law are the USFS and BLM not following?


LOL!!!!! oh the uninformed.

Mechanical transportation is by law not allowed in wilderness areas.
There are no exceptions bicycles

"Mechanical Transport", a clause in the 1964 Wildereness Act, defined and discussed

Code of Federal Regulations

In 1984 the Sierra club got extra regulation put into place. So seems that your mountain bike should not be out there either.

But they run with your views they fight in nicely with the Sierra clubs views, just the target of your dislike differs.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Gutch said:


> And I see thread closure coming... Another trail Access derailment.


They all devolve into this

The irony is even when discussion like this happen in the advocacy forum they get closed.


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> Gee seems I am hurting the feelings of those that don't like ebikes, sorry not sorry.
> 
> Sorry to tell you but yes folks like you sound just like Sierra club people that hate mountain bikers, it's the truth.


My feelings are hurt because the local scooter club won't let me in. I told em my MTB was is just a pedal assist scooter!

I even went with the don't be like the Sierra club argument and couldn't sway them.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Harryman said:


> Right, and the next line is:
> 
> "An electric-assisted bicycle's *motor*...."
> 
> ...


Oh and please go on about the crystal clear distinctions of motor vehicle and motorized that the people who make policy know all about.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> LOL!!!!! oh the uninformed.
> 
> Mechanical transportation is by law not allowed in wilderness areas.
> There are no exceptions bicycles
> ...


I'm very familiar with ther Wilderness Act as it relates to bikes.



KenPsz said:


> In 1984 the Sierra club got extra regulation put into place. So seems that your mountain bike should not be out there either.


Yeah, about that. Mountain bikes are banned in Wilderness due to the Wilderness Act. According to the law, mountain bikes should not be out there. I'm surprised that you don't understand that. Talk about uninformed.

What does this have to do with the USFS and BLM banning electric motor bicycles from non-motorized trails?

Again, what law are the BLM and USFS not following?


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

og-mtb said:


> I'm very familiar with ther Wilderness Act as it relates to bikes.
> 
> Yeah, about that. Mountain bikes are banned in Wilderness due to the Wilderness Act. According to the law, mountain bikes should not be out there. I'm surprised that you don't understand that. Talk about uninformed.
> 
> ...


You changed the subject away from ebikes with your question to me. I pointed to the laws the BLM and USFS are not following when they allow mountain bikes (aka mechanized transportation) on their lands.

You're the one that quoted my post and asked me did you not bother to read what you were quoting?

Here this my quote that you picked "If the USFS and BLM fully followed the law mountain bikes are just as equivalent since the key phrase is mechanical not motorized in the law."

Aka mountain bikes are the equivalent to ebikes when it comes to being banned by BLM and USFS, since they are both mechanical transportation. There is NOTHING in the law about motorized although you hear that excuse used over and over again.

Given these types of discussion I hope that clubs like the Sierra club push for the letter of the law to be enforced. The you can ride your super spiffy mountain bike around your lawn.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

To the OP sorry this thread has devolved into the normal nonsense. 

I did post earlier that it would be like 26" bikes normal mountain bikes would still be out there being ridden.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

karthur said:


> My feelings are hurt because the local scooter club won't let me in. I told em my MTB was is just a pedal assist scooter!
> 
> I even went with the don't be like the Sierra club argument and couldn't sway them.


"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness."

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/55...incerest-form-of-flattery-that-mediocrity-can


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> I pointed to the laws the BLM and USFS are not following when they allow mountain bikes (aka mechanized transportation) on their lands.


What law says the BLM and USFS can't allow mtbs on their trails? You do realize that you can take motos, atvs and 4X4s out on BLM and USFS land right?

How about a link to the law you're referring to? Doesn't sound like you know what your talking about.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

singletrackmack said:


> What law says the BLM and USFS can't allow mtbs on their trails? You do realize that you can take motos, atvs and 4X4s out on BLM and USFS land right?
> 
> How about a link to the law you're referring to? Doesn't sound like you know what your talking about.


He doesn't. He doesn't know the difference between Wilderness and wilderness.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> You changed the subject away from ebikes with your question to me. I pointed to the laws the BLM and USFS are not following when they allow mountain bikes (aka mechanized transportation) on their lands.


You're really confused here.

The law you pointed to, the Wilderness Act, _is_ followed by the BLM and USFS and is used to *disallow *mountain bikes on a subset of their lands - Designated Wilderness Areas.

Again, this claim that you made about electric motor bicycles and normal bikes being equivalent under the law is utter nonsense:

"_If the USFS and BLM fully followed the law mountain bikes are just as equivalent since the key phrase is mechanical not motorized in the law."

_edit: It's absolutely mind-boggling that the guy who claimed that people are "uninformed" about the Wilderness Act doesn't even know that it's been used for decades to ban bikes from Wilderness.

Educate yourself lest you continue to showcase your cluelessness again:

http://www.sustainabletrailscoalition.org/


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness."
> 
> https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/55...incerest-form-of-flattery-that-mediocrity-can


Sorry, I tried.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to KenPsz again."

The Wilde quote changed my life?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> He doesn't. He doesn't know the difference between Wilderness and wilderness.


LOL...that's what I was thinking also. 
Too funny.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

og-mtb said:


> The USFS, BLM, as well as many State and local jurisdictions disagree with you.


All of the New England states do as well.


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