# You may have seen this: one month on a HT = 2.5% slower DH than full suspension



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

He calls a 170/150mm bike a 'trail bike'...isn't that more Enduro territory? Anyway, the Commencal HT he has is 150/0 mm and after a month he got the downhill time to within 2.5% of the full suspension bike, not bad. This is a blue trail? I'd hate to see what's black! Oh one other comment, he says he went from 2.3 tires to 2.4 and the grip was noticeably better. Yeah no kidding especially how he rides and what trail he's on but why not try a 2.6 at least up front? I mean, we are in 2022 now, a 2.6 isn't exotic or anything. Would not be surprised if he matched the 2.3/2.3 full suspension time (or bested it) with a 2.6/2.6 HT.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

unless you're racing, and very competitive, 2.5% time is meaningless. yay hardtails!


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## #/er (Apr 4, 2021)

Most riders just want to get it over with - the sooner the better.


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

IME a Dual isn't about speed/time, but comfort. 
Far less "beat up" on a DS at the end of the run..


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Based on the video that's a BC blue trail and a reasonably easy one at that. There were no difficult features you had to ride. Just steer the bike and don't fall off.

In terms of tires if your mission is max speed wider tires aren't the answer. Something in the 2.4"-2.5" Maxxis sizing range would hit the best balance of traction and stability in corners when pushed hard. If you are a recreational rider looking to have a fun ride wider tires can be great, but it's a different set of priorities to maximum speed riding.

I find I can ride my hardtail pretty fast in a lot of terrain vs. my FS bike. However, there are particular types of terrain where I have to slow down on the HT to maintain control. The other thing is I can have as much fun riding my HT a bit slower on a trail vs. my FS bike since it's more challenging to ride smooth.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

richj8990 said:


> He calls a 170/150mm bike a 'trail bike'...isn't that more Enduro territory?


Labels are just arbitrary. One persons enduro is another persons trail and vice versa. I don't race enduro, but my trail bike is a 170 FS.



richj8990 said:


> This is a blue trail? I'd hate to see what's black!


Would be black in our area. Grades are also pretty arbitrary and more related to the area then anything else. A double black at Skypark is not equal to a double black at Snow Summit which is not equal to a double black at Mammoth.



richj8990 said:


> he went from 2.3 tires to 2.4 and the grip was noticeably better. Yeah no kidding


I call BS. He said he went from a 2.35 to a 2.4. That's a millimeter. You aren't going to notice the difference in one of two mm. Different casing, tire pressure, tread, compound, sure. But not a mm.



richj8990 said:


> Would not be surprised if he matched the 2.3/2.3 full suspension time (or bested it) with a 2.6/2.6 HT.


Doubt it, but doesn't matter. Ride what you have more fun on.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The volume difference between tire sizes is what really effects the feel.

If you just look at a 2.3 vs. a 2.4 the overall size of the 2.4 is a LOT larger, visibly.

PS. Hardtails are stupid.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Yeah, looks like a blue trail in my area, too.

While I get incredibly annoyed with all the vids where the comparisons are all based on time, this one isn't quite as bad as most.

He did address some things I think are important, that most ppl ignore. A hardtail will penalize you for being lazy with your riding and your skills. But you can have lots of fun riding one if you adjust your riding to suit the bike and its strengths/weaknesses, which he is good about mentioning.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Be interesting to have followed that last hard tail lap with his enduro bike and see if riding the hardtail made him faster. 

Good video though. I always think subtracting suspension from a bike is akin to the difference between one of the high end porsche cars. You buy one of the ones with leather and the auto transmission and such and it is blistering fast. You buy one of the race prepped version with the stripped interior and defeated nanny controls and it will be blistering fast with the right driver in the seat but it has to be someone that wants to push it. Unlike the porsche though you can plod along on a hardtail as well.


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

The hardtail will certainly beat you up more, you may be nearly as fast, 2.5% sounds like it might be real, and that on the downhills would lessen your chance of getting on the podium in many races. I have raced xc quite a bit with a guy who used to ride full rigid, he was/is a top age group cat1 in xc and cyclocross, and he was really fast on the rigid bike, but now that he's in his late 40s he has remarked that it would really beat him up (obviously), but he was as fast as pretty much anyone on the (relatively tame) xc downhills.
One surprise when I got a fs xc race bike: I found I can sit and 'rest' on some of the slightly rough downhill sections and get a little bit of recovery. On my hardtail I would have been off the seat, legs pretty well 'loaded', and not getting that same short rest, which translates to some more available wattage when the dh is over.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

Love riding my "enduro" hard tail, and my "trail" hard tail on the steep stuff up here, even at the bike park. On the long flow stuff I have actually set some PRs on the hard tails, even a couple top 10s all time on the main (over 1000 individuals) trails on strava with the hard tail. But, for enduro races, its not really close. The number of sections is enough to where the chunky ones play too big of roll in your overall time. I've only used the big FS 160mm+ for those races to be able to stay towards the top. I will say though I have most fun on my 63 degree HT angle, steel hardtail with a 150 Fox 36 on it, by a mile!


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't even understand how there could even be any controversy here.

To state the obvious... for pumping and pedaling, the HT is generally faster. In dynamic terrain with compressions/chunk etc, suspension is beneficial.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I have several Strava KOMs (DH segments) that were done on my Honzo. In two years, none of them have been approached; and pretty much nobody else in my area rides hardtails.

I guess my point is, on certain trails, hardtails aren’t at a disadvantage at all; possibly the opposite.

It takes a pretty rowdy trail for my enduro bike to be faster. Thankfully we have plenty of those too.👍


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## Bicycle Rider (Feb 2, 2004)

EatsDirt said:


> I don't even understand how there could even be any controversy here.
> 
> To state the obvious... for pumping and pedaling, the HT is generally faster. In dynamic terrain with compressions/chunk etc, suspension is beneficial.


but but but! Your answer has nuance! We can’t have that!!!


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

vikb said:


> In terms of tires if your mission is max speed wider tires aren't the answer. Something in the 2.4"-2.5" Maxxis sizing range would hit the best balance of traction and stability in corners when pushed hard. If you are a recreational rider looking to have a fun ride wider tires can be great, but it's a different set of priorities to maximum speed riding.


Is that why the vast majority of 27.5+ tests against 29ers show that 27.5+ was faster, even after the industry had decided to stop pushing said 27.5+ tires?


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

brentos said:


> Is that why the vast majority of 27.5+ tests against 29ers show that 27.5+ was faster, even after the industry had decided to stop pushing said 27.5+ tires?


I don’t believe that for a minute. Nor do any xc racers, anywhere.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

numbnuts said:


> I don’t believe that for a minute. Nor do any xc racers, anywhere.


Yup. Nor do any gravity racers. 

Like I said above for recreational riders wider tires can be the best choice...all things considered, but it's a different type of riding with different priorities than racing.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

brentos said:


> Is that why the vast majority of 27.5+ tests against 29ers show that 27.5+ was faster, even after the industry had decided to stop pushing said 27.5+ tires?


I've got two 29+ bikes and my GF rides a 27+ hardtail. I've helped other friends get going on 27+ bikes. So I am a Plus tire fan for a lot of bike missions. That said for DH racing [back to the OP] wide tires [once you get to a certain point say 2.4"-2.5" Maxxis sizing] don't help you go faster. The problem is that these races are won in the corners and by keeping air in the tires. Plus rubber suffers in both these areas.

The bike industry didn't abandon 27+ despite it being faster for gravity racing. That's just crazy talk. They stopped being excited by 27+ because most people preferred mid-sized 29er rubber 2.5"-2.6" and whatever stoked for 275er wheels was left got directed towards mullet setups.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

vikb said:


> Yup. Nor do any gravity racers.
> 
> Like I said above for recreational riders wider tires can be the best choice...all things considered, but it's a different type of riding with different priorities than racing.


Oh, I misunderstood when you said they were faster I guess.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

numbnuts said:


> Oh, I misunderstood when you said they were faster I guess.





vikb said:


> In terms of tires if your mission is max speed wider tires aren't the answer.


I didn't say they were faster. You might be confusing me with someone else.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

vikb said:


> I didn't say they were faster. You might be confusing me with someone else.


Yup, my bad


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I broke a collarbone while riding my hardtail once.
What’s your point, Rich?
Would a custom saddle help?
What color were the bikes?
What time is it?
=sParty


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

*richj8990
Yeah no kidding especially how he rides and what trail he's on but why not try a 2.6 at least up front? I mean, we are in 2022 now, a 2.6 isn't exotic or anything. Would not be surprised if he matched the 2.3/2.3 full suspension time (or bested it) with a 2.6/2.6 HT.*

It's worth having a look at tyre weights. Maxxis' Minion DHF barely increases in weight from the 2.5 to the 2.6. Sure it's only 2mm wider but presumably it just means the whole tyre is getting thinner.
I recall when our National DH championship here had a hardtail class, all the riders were squeezing 2.7s on the front and as big as they could fit on the back. But it was for durability as much as anything. I look at professional racers with a hefty grain of salt. If they want it run coil but their sponsor only does air, then too bad. Unless you're at the very top of the totem pole. But you can look at tyres, DH, XC and Enduro have all been pretty consistent in width.
A 2.6" tyre at 1000g would get shredded pretty quickly. NB I didn't dive too far into the Maxxis offerings. I'm not sure if they do a heavy duty 2.6" to be fair.


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