# Tandem wheels; spoke count



## Erichimedes (Jul 30, 2010)

Hello tandemistas!
My name is Eric, and I've been lurking around here for quite a while. My girlfriend and I are planning on riding the GDR from Canada to our home in Colorado on a MTB tandem. We're excited to join the world of tandem mountain biking!

I'm putting components together for our bike, and one of the major thoughts is the wheel set. Seeing as this will be ridden on local single track, but also needs to hold up for roughly 1900 miles of dirt roads next Fall, I want something bomber. Weight is only a marginal concern.

The rims I'm planning on using are the Velocity Cliffhangers, in 700c, or 29er size. Luckily, I already have a Rohloff hub with 36h drilling. What I'm trying to figure out is the front. I need a hub with 15mm TA, and I'd prefer a 36h drilling. Most of the hubs I like only come in 32h drillings. It seems that many of the 15mm TA hubs available in 36h are from the boutique manufacturers (CK, Phil, etc.).

My question is, do you think it's worth going out of my way to get 36 spokes, or have 32 spoke front wheels held up well for you folks?

Team weight: 310lbs
Gear weight: 40ish lbs
Bike: steel 29er MTB tandem
Fork: RS Pike set at 120mm travel

Thanks for any input!


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## DHMASTER (Oct 12, 2010)

My team and bike weight is 470lbs, we run 36 spoke on King hubs. We race DH and ride hard. I think that the confidence they inspire is worth it. Do it once, do it right.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Our team weight is 360lb with water and day gear. We've been riding 32H MTX33 rims and have had zero issues with spokes (Sapim from Alex/mtbtandems.com) or rims. Our terrain is pretty smooth, but we don't baby it.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

it depends a lot on what components you're using. We use 36 or 40 spoke, sometimes 48 if they're doing very loaded touring or extra heavy team. But equally as important is the rim spoke and hub choice; a lightweight rim might require more spokes to increase durability, while a stronger rim would be fine with 36 spokes. 
You didn't specify which Cliffhanger you're using; Velocity has a New Cliffhanger with is Tubeless-compatible and a bit wider than the original. While we used the originals with some success, Velocity has stopped selling them and in fact credited me for the ones I had in stock. The New Cliffhanger, or Cliffhanger 2, is avialable in 36 or 40 spoke drilling. White Industries makes 36 and 40 spoke front QR15 hubs, and are the least expensive of the boutique brands. They also have taller hub flanges than some of the others, which helps with wheel strength as well.
I'd definitely go 36 minimum in your situation, with either the New Cliffhanger or the MTX33, which is bomb-proof but not tubeless-compatible. Also, use a good strong spoke and brass nipples (don't let anyone talk you into alloy nipples). We use Sapim Strong spokes, which are 13g at the bend and 14g from the but down to the threads. 
The Rohloff will work better with 2x lacing, and is symmetrical, so it will be plenty strong.


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## Erichimedes (Jul 30, 2010)

Thanks for everyone's responses. This is confirming my original conviction that I want 36 spokes.

DHMASTER: I agree, I'm going to be putting money down anyway. No need to cut corners.

Okayfine: It's cool to hear that 32's are working so well for you! Maybe our terrain is one thing that makes me uneasy. Any extended section of smooth, rockless trail is always commented on as being unusually enjoyable. It sounds like we need to visit your area when we get the tandem running 

TandemNut: I plan on using the newest Velocity Cliffhangers with DT Swiss Champion 2mm spokes and brass nipples. I don't ever use alloy nipples for anything. I don't think we'll ever use single-bike-specific rims on this rig, so I'm thinking 36 should be pretty good. Thanks for the tip on White Industries, I'm looking into them now. Thanks for the feedback, I think more spokes will help me sleep better.

The other thing is that I will be the one building, maintaining, and riding (with my SO) these wheels so there's a some forgiveness there for if they need a little maintenance now and then. Wheels losing true is ok, broken spokes and rims are not.

Thanks for the feedback so far! I'm interested in anyone else's experience as well, so keep it coming.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

If you ever make your way to the Thousand Oaks area of SoCal, do let us know. We've got some good trails 1/4 mile from our door. Most of the area trails are similar, it's just a matter of the type of view you're interested in at the half-way point, valley views or Pacific Ocean. More than a handful of SoCal teams as well, though we've all been relatively quiet on the forum recently.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

No experience with the Cliffhangers, but we did run MTX rims on our Fandango 29 with excellent performance and reliability.

MTX will also shed mud pretty good rather then build up.

PK


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

32h is fine, don't sweat it. Ever watch the Red Bull Rampage? Those guys are sending it, backflips, twists, you name it and they do it with huge air, enough to break frames and blow forks.... all on 32h wheels.


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## Erichimedes (Jul 30, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> 32h is fine, don't sweat it. Ever watch the Red Bull Rampage? Those guys are sending it, backflips, twists, you name it and they do it with huge air, enough to break frames and blow forks.... all on 32h wheels.


True! However, they're sponsored. If I break stuff, I have to pay for it's replacement. I tend to lean towards the over-built from a financial perspective sometimes.

I ended up going with a 36h White industries front hub (in purple!!) to go with my 36h Cliffhangers.

Does anyone have any long term experience running the Blunt 35's on a tandem?


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

We build quite a lot of wheels with the Blunt 35, both in 36 and 40 spoke. I like the way they spread the tire out for a wider footprint, and they're decently light compared to most tandem-capable rims. However, I'd also describe them as more "soft" in the sense that they're easier to ding than some other rims we use, namely the New Cliffhanger and the MTX33. They're still a good, strong rim, and Mhopton and his wife beat the crap out of a set for a few years before going to carbon. The rims held up well, given what they were subjected to. The continued to hold air even with a couple of pretty good dings in the rear rim.

I also noticed that the Blunt 35's are similar to the Stans rims in that one has to be careful to tension them enough so that when the tire is inflated, the spoke tension is still in the desired zone. The Blunt 35's "unload" more than other rims (but not nearly as much as the Stans) when the tire is inflated. No issue now that we understand it, and build accordingly.

I've discussed this rim with Velocity, and they won't necessarily agree that one rim is "softer" than another, they do say the New Cliffhanger is a stronger (and heavier) rim. Too bad it's not as wide as the B35.

If they could make the Blunt35 with the strength of the New Cliffhanger, that would be a great tandem rim!


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## Erichimedes (Jul 30, 2010)

Yeah, hearing that they're "soft" does make sense. Their wall thickness seems to be quite a bit thinner than the cliffhangers, and it seems like they're intended for single bikes.

I've also noticed that the wider rims on fatbikes tend to get dings in them if they're ridden on rocky trail a lot. It seems like wider rims in general tend to come into contact with the trail more than narrow rims.

Well, I think we'll be happy with the cliffhangers, but if we do want to go fatter someday, maybe we'll go for the Blunt 35's.



TandemNut said:


> We build quite a lot of wheels with the Blunt 35, both in 36 and 40 spoke. I like the way they spread the tire out for a wider footprint, and they're decently light compared to most tandem-capable rims. However, I'd also describe them as more "soft" in the sense that they're easier to ding than some other rims we use, namely the New Cliffhanger and the MTX33. They're still a good, strong rim, and Mhopton and his wife beat the crap out of a set for a few years before going to carbon. The rims held up well, given what they were subjected to. The continued to hold air even with a couple of pretty good dings in the rear rim.
> 
> I also noticed that the Blunt 35's are similar to the Stans rims in that one has to be careful to tension them enough so that when the tire is inflated, the spoke tension is still in the desired zone. The Blunt 35's "unload" more than other rims (but not nearly as much as the Stans) when the tire is inflated. No issue now that we understand it, and build accordingly.
> 
> ...


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

One thing I will say about the Blunt 35's though; even when they get dinged, they still manage to hold air pretty well. I've straightened a few out with no apparent adverse effects to the rim's ability to seat and hold air.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

TandemNut said:


> One thing I will say about the Blunt 35's though; even when they get dinged, they still manage to hold air pretty well. I've straightened a few out with no apparent adverse effects to the rim's ability to seat and hold air.


We have beat the crap out of two sets of P35s (yeah, they're so old they pre-date the new name - same rim). On a Fandango 29 and ECDM 29. We have quite a few dings in the rear rim, but no issues. As Alex mentions above, they hold air just fine with the dings. 
I REALLY like the wider profile rim on a tandem. I have no desire to ride a narrower rim. These rims work well with a 2.4 Ardent front and 2.35 Panaracer Rampage rear (or larger if you can fit it in your rear triangle)

I can't even guess how many miles we have on them(likely > 5,000 miles on the ECDM alone). This is not a gravel grinder bike. Mostly singletrack.

I would certainly use these rims again if I had the need to build another wheelset.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

We've been very pleased with these......................

EX 729 Disc | Mavic - United Kingdom


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