# Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

*Onyx Racing Hubs - The best of all worlds, fast engagement, strong, durable*

I wanted to start a clean thread about Onyx Racing hubs, but first some tech talk:

In terms of "what drives a hub", these are the primary groups:

Ratchet and Pawl (Ex: Hope, SRAM, Shimano, Hadley)

Star Ratchet (DT Swiss, Chris King*)

Tech resource: How Things Work: The Freehub Body - Dirt

Roller Clutch (True Precision Stealth): FAQ | True Precision Components

Sprag Clutch (Onyx Racing): 
FAQs
Sprag clutch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I discovered Onyx Racing hubs while looking for strong hubs to run on a fat tandem. Tandems are very hard on hubs, the combination of team weight, frame flex, and high torque tend to trash bearings and tear up pawls.

Admittedly, Onyx Racing has the worst website imaginable, but don't let this dissuade you from taking a look at what they have to offer: a strong hub with nearly instant engagement.

I have posted comments on the Onyx Racing Hubs to other threads, so I'll copy them below: http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/king-hubs-vs-oynx-racing-hubs-933929-5.html

"Our hubs are 15 x 150/12 x 170, built on Scraper rims, running Trax fatty 3.25, on a Ventana Jefe Tandem. We chose these hubs because tandems are very hard on rear hubs due to issues with extreme flex and torque.

So far we have taken ten hard rides on a tandem; these rides have included Moab slickrock, numerous hill climbs on single track, and lots of rolling single track, and a bunch of fast descents on ugly terrain. We (I) tend to pick terrain that most people would not consider tandem friendly. My wife just follows along without complain as long as I don't dump her

The slickrock riding is really a great test for a tandem hub because there is no tire slippage; as a result the hub is taking all of the torque without relief or cushion. We rode most of the trails at Klondike including Baby Steps, UFO, etc... which had more drops that I choose to count, and the hub is as good as new.

To put our limited ride count on this hub in perspective, a single tandem ride equates to two or three as much abuse as you'd get from a solo bike because the torque of two riders is so much greater than a single rider, not to mention frame twisting.

So far this hub is great, it is super smooth, super quiet, and engagement is nearly instantaneous. The only concern I have heard voices with this type of hub is contamination from wet conditions (Mikesee). Supposedly the seals are really good on the Onyx; I think some guys are using them for snow biking in AK. Again, this would be one of those issues that come out over time, so riders in wet areas should take this with a grain of salt.

The Onyx hubs come with a one year mechanism/five year hub body warranty, but of course using a warranty for a failure takes your bike out of commission. I believe you can replace the core if the hub internals get damaged, but I don't know for sure.

I like the Onyx hub enough that I'll be using the same wheel set for my Mutz and when I build a wheel set for my Atlas; it will be on Onyx hubs.

The engagement is so good with Onyx that it really has to be experienced. I can only compare it to riding a Muni (unicycle), where the only slack in the engagement is from the chain. The rear hub also seems to have gotten fast, i.e. it spins forever compared to a ratchet hub.

I think the weight and price on an Onyx hub are commensurate with the what you get. If you want a less expensive hub or a lighter weight hub, then there are many to choose from including Profile.

As far as I know, the only hub to comparable to the Onyx, is the True Precision Stealth made in San Diego, it has a slightly different mechanism, it was also developed in conjunction with BMX. The Stealth is not available in 170/190."


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Anyone want to add wet weather feedback?

Just got our second set for a 29+ build, pics to follow:


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Nurse Ben, have you messed w/ the pre-load on your rear hub? I have the drive side cap threaded on finger tight. Any more and it starts to drag. Any thoughts? I'm tempted to loc-tite it on.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The preload is from the disc side, the retainer has an allen head bolt, loosen it to tighten prevent side to side movement of the hub body on the axle. The hub ends should slip in and out, like a Hope, at least the disc side one does.

And yeah, there is a tad bit of drag when I snug up the rear, kinda feels "friction", but the front is fine, so it probably has something to do with the mechanism.

Finger tight is good, that's what I've been doing.



natron5000 said:


> Nurse Ben, have you messed w/ the pre-load on your rear hub? I have the drive side cap threaded on finger tight. Any more and it starts to drag. Any thoughts? I'm tempted to loc-tite it on.


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

Subscribed.


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## cunningstunts (Sep 1, 2011)

not the prettiest thing is it? i imagine they will do some more straight forward colours? mind if i ask how much that bad boy set you back?


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

cunningstunts said:


> not the prettiest thing is it? i imagine they will do some more straight forward colours? mind if i ask how much that bad boy set you back?


I think they will do about any color you want. Laser etching too.


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Road Hub Review:


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## cunningstunts (Sep 1, 2011)

anyone reckon why they don't have their mtn bike hubs on their website???


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

cunningstunts said:


> anyone reckon why they don't have their mtn bike hubs on their website???


No. Check out the FB page.


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## tim300wsm (May 14, 2011)

What do they charge for their disk hubs


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## SmoothestRollingBike (Jun 15, 2015)

Here you are:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cukva6gr795bifb/Onyx Price Sheet.xlsx?dl=0

They will be on my Smoothest Rolling Bike


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

natron5000 said:


> No. Check out the FB page.


And this is why I will never be a customer.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

006_007 said:


> And this is why I will never be a customer.


Seriously dude, that shitty website is killing me when I am riding on their hubs. Knowing that they are interwebs bogus really ruins the sweet, sweet smooth and silent rolling with unbelievably instant engagement. What was I thinking when I picked up the phone and talked to their friendly, helpful and knowledgeable makers before ordering? Easily the best hubs I have ever ridden, but I should toss them because of that tragic web experience.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

VonFalkenhausen said:


> Seriously dude, that shitty website is killing me when I am riding on their hubs. Knowing that they are interwebs bogus really ruins the sweet, sweet smooth and silent rolling with unbelievably instant engagement. What was I thinking when I picked up the phone and talked to their friendly, helpful and knowledgeable makers before ordering? Easily the best hubs I have ever ridden, but I should toss them because of that tragic web experience.


Seriously, Dude.


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## BillT (Dec 24, 2003)

I have an Onyx rear hub that I'm going to building up next week...can't wait!


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## cunningstunts (Sep 1, 2011)

not to put too much emphasis on a website, but theirs is just so bad it seems hard to imagine the same people can make a brilliant piece of engineering. now with that out of the way, is there a top retailer for this brand of hub? certainly nothing here in Canada. who should i go to for more details and ordering?


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## HillDancer (Dec 10, 2012)

Allen Stark 
Onyx Racing Products 
320-310-7887
[email protected]
[email protected]
Onyx Racing Products - Contact Us

This is fairly comprehensive for build details. https://www.dropbox.com/s/wexdcsc73wviag8/Hub Specs.xlsx?dl=0

Contact direct for custom options like color and conversion parts.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

cunningstunts said:


> not to put too much emphasis on a website, but theirs is just so bad it seems hard to imagine the same people can make a brilliant piece of engineering. now with that out of the way, is there a top retailer for this brand of hub? certainly nothing here in Canada. who should i go to for more details and ordering?


Universal Cycles. They have them in stock and were pretty good about answering my questions.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

That excel list is interesting. There are far more options than I thought they had.

I'm this close (> <) to ordering a rear hub for my road bike. I think the buzz of the King is a good thing for the crowded trails around here but a silent road bike would be fantastic.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

92gli said:


> I think the buzz of the King is a good thing for the crowded trails around here but a silent road bike would be fantastic.


I am in no way trying to sway you away from Onyx in any way, but unless you have ridden King hubs recently...they really aren't very loud imho. My buddy on Hopes and my I9's are at least twice as loud as my King hubs w/ SS fh body.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

I've been on King for a while. Mine was fairly quiet for the first year. It seems to get louder every time I clean it and re-lube. I also just switched to the xtr 9000 cassette and I swear it amplifies it even more.

After briefly trying an onyx a few weeks ago, it hasn't been a question of wanting one, it's which bike I'll buy one for first. While I want instant engagement for trails, I think noise is a benefit to others. Plus, I'm really regretting using a dt 350 for my current road wheels. It feels clunky and sounds like crap.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

My road bike is 135 with disc, so I think I'm getting their CX hub when they are available. The cx hub uses a slimmer shell and one and a half doohickies versus the mtb hub which has two doohickies - so, lighter weight. Excuse the technical jargon


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

cunningstunts said:


> not to put too much emphasis on a website, but theirs is just so bad it seems hard to imagine the same people can make a brilliant piece of engineering. now with that out of the way, is there a top retailer for this brand of hub? certainly nothing here in Canada. who should i go to for more details and ordering?


LaMere is an Onyx dealer.
LaMere Cycles Custom Carbon Bicycles


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

QBP is also an Onyx dealer. But no info on the website yet.
Quality Bicycle Products | Every Butt on a Bike


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

CK is a great producer, but their hubs aren't even in the same league with Onyx.

If CK made a hub design like Onyx, I'd buy them!



jonshonda said:


> I am in no way trying to sway you away from Onyx in any way, but unless you have ridden King hubs recently...they really aren't very loud imho. My buddy on Hopes and my I9's are at least twice as loud as my King hubs w/ SS fh body.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yeah, why would you want talk to a real person, send texts back and forth, or receive emails. I'd much rather have a high tech website and order without ever interacting with a human.

They are so smooth and engage so fast, once you roll a hub like Onyx, there's no going back.

But hey, don't take "our" word, you all just keep rolling CK and all those pawl hubs, it won't hurt my feelings 

I'm building a third set for a 26 x 4" winter wheel set, kinda struggling with colors, I have gold and red, so perhaps I'll go with silver or black...wait, why not a zebra?!

As to prices, I get a discount for helping out a buddy in his shop, but they are around the same price as Hadley or CK.


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## geraldooka (Jul 3, 2012)

Sweet looking hubs, great to see some actual innovation in the market for this type of component. I'll consider these for sure but wish they were lighter and less expensive. The Hope Pro 2 evo 40t I run on all my bikes have always been reliable and at 200g less weight and over $200 less provide a pretty compelling weight, performance, dollar ratio.


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## mikeetheviking (Jan 27, 2015)

Subscribed.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Looks like the website is down as of now. 
But can someone please tell me where they are made?

Thank you


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

acer66 said:


> Looks like the website is down as of now.
> But can someone please tell me where they are made?
> 
> Thank you


The hubs are made in Minnesota, and the sprags and bearings are sourced from Germany.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

VonFalkenhausen said:


> The hubs are made in Minnesota, and the sprags and bearings are sourced from Germany.


Danke Herr von Falkenhausen.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

It's not entirely about durability and silent running, the real performamce benefits are in the immediate engagement and frictionless coasting.

Once you ride these hubs, there's no going back, ratchet hubs will feel annoyingly slow.

I'm starting my third Onyx wheel build this fall, just need to pick a color. I'm thinking silver with red streaks, or maybe red with gold streaks, or ...


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## loopsb (Aug 9, 2004)

How do get these custom color combos I see around? Do they just make random cool batches and if you happen to be on the spot at the right time you're stoked? Or do the have a custom order procedure for an up Charge? Looking through thier Facebook photos reveals some insane color ways that I would love get ahold of for my build

Sorry for the thread drift


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

We stock over 20 different colors. If you have a specific color you'd like to match we can help with that also, usually there is no up-charge. Send us an email [email protected] or give us a call at 800-328-8896 option 2.
Thanks!


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

Do they have a SS hub with 142x12 axle? Is it a real "one piece axle" or just end caps on a 135? Also what is the free hub body made of? 
These are the main reasons I went with Hadley SS hubs for my SS Sir9. A real 142x12 one piece axle and a Ti free hub body. Obviously not the Hadley website,lol.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

hardmtnbiker said:


> Do they have a SS hub with 142x12 axle? Is it a real "one piece axle" or just end caps on a 135? Also what is the free hub body made of?
> These are the main reasons I went with Hadley SS hubs for my SS Sir9. A real 142x12 one piece axle and a Ti free hub body. Obviously not the Hadley website,lol.


I remember them posting a hub with a short freehub body for SS and DJ use that was available in 142/12 axle, just call them up and I am sure they would be happy to give you all the details, I had all my questions answered in great detail when I was preparing to order my set. I believe all their freehub shells are steel for the strength required to properly support the Sprag drive system. They are stout hubs.


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## Love Commander (Nov 15, 2012)

Any word on how user-serviceable these are?

I'm having a new wheelset built and am considering these vs. I9 Torches vs. DT 240s. Leaning toward the DTs, due to how dead simple they are to work on.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

Love Commander said:


> Any word on how user-serviceable these are?
> 
> I'm having a new wheelset built and am considering these vs. I9 Torches vs. DT 240s. Leaning toward the DTs, due to how dead simple they are to work on.


Here is a couple quick videos on the complete tear down of our mtb hubs. We'll be posting new videos to our youtube channel soon.

Part 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jmnh0np95i1fp0/Mtb1of2.mov?dl=0

Part 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncp17s91cavxok1/Mtb2of2.mov?dl=0

Any other questions just hit us up!


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> Here is a couple quick videos on the complete tear down of our mtb hubs. We'll be posting new videos to our youtube channel soon.
> 
> Part 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jmnh0np95i1fp0/Mtb1of2.mov?dl=0
> 
> ...


Have you tried these in cold weather?? I mean like -20C cold. What were the results?
Can you substitute the grease/oil for the sprag with any other (thinner) oil/grease for cold weather use or will they only work with one kind of lube?

I have a TP that I've done about 15000km on, and at about 10000 the mechanism looked brand new, I could not see evidence of any metal to metal contact at all. and that surprised me.

What type of alu is used for the shell? If I sent you a piece of Ti could you build me a hub with a Ti shell (6al4v)?


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

car bone said:


> Have you tried these in cold weather?? I mean like -20C cold. What were the results?
> Can you substitute the grease/oil for the sprag with any other (thinner) oil/grease for cold weather use or will they only work with one kind of lube?
> 
> I have a TP that I've done about 15000km on, and at about 10000 the mechanism looked brand new, I could not see evidence of any metal to metal contact at all. and that surprised me.
> ...


No issues in extreme cold weather. We recommend the use of Kluber LDS 18 Spec A greaase, very light coating. Less is more in this application. The grease limits are


 Upper Heat Range 120 deg Celsius
 Lower Heat Range -50 deg Celsius

We use a 7075 material on our shells, we are not tooled up for the Ti!


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## OriginalDonk (Jul 8, 2009)

Eyeing these and trying to work out whether to go with the 12x142mm for my existing frame and hope boost dies.

So in theory if you have a 12x142mm Onyx rear hub and in the future the only frame options that interest you have boost spacing can you convert your hub with a new axle and hub shell (a la Chris King)?


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

OriginalDonk said:


> Eyeing these and trying to work out whether to go with the 12x142mm for my existing frame and hope boost dies.
> 
> So in theory if you have a 12x142mm Onyx rear hub and in the future the only frame options that interest you have boost spacing can you convert your hub with a new axle and hub shell (a la Chris King)?


Most likely yes, but the hub will not have the slightly wider flange spacing, so it will not actually be a boost hub. I believe you would also need a brake rotor spacer.


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## OriginalDonk (Jul 8, 2009)

92gli said:


> Most likely yes, but the hub will not have the slightly wider flange spacing, so it will not actually be a boost hub. I believe you would also need a brake rotor spacer.


A new axle and hub shell should move the flanges out so externally it would be a boost setup. My question is focused on whether the internals would play nice with a new hub shell.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

If you haven't done it yet, check out their facebook page. New hub porn all the time. I think I need to get a set in red with gold axles and end caps. Nobody in the component world is doing finishes like onyx.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

OriginalDonk said:


> Eyeing these and trying to work out whether to go with the 12x142mm for my existing frame and hope boost dies.
> 
> So in theory if you have a 12x142mm Onyx rear hub and in the future the only frame options that interest you have boost spacing can you convert your hub with a new axle and hub shell (a la Chris King)?


To change from a 135/142 spaced hub you would need to send the hub back to us for a shell and axle swap. Everything else in the hub is the same assuming you have the 142/12 end caps on. Our trade-back program would allow a model-to-model swap at 75% off, plus additional parts. So retail on the rear hub is 445, less 75%, leaves you 111.25 to change out the shell (includes servicing) and 60 for a new axle.


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## OriginalDonk (Jul 8, 2009)

Great info. Thank you Jim.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

I finally pulled the trigger for an Onyx rear 12x142 hub..AMAZING!

Nice and smooth. I don't like loud hubs...the silence is golden. 

The weight is NOT and issue.


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## Derp (Aug 20, 2013)

After two rides on my Onyx hubs, I couldn't believe how much they make even the best hubs feel like department store level product. The instant engagement is so instant that the only play you can feel is in your chain! And then they're completely silent and roll really fast.


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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

Any long term usage feedback info fellas?


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

verrocchio100 said:


> Any long term usage feedback info fellas?


After 6 months of hard MTB riding on East Coast, still spin forever and not one problem. So smooth!! Now Jim when will they get lighter? 100g or so!!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

No no no. :nono: There's no making them lighter. I'd actually prefer them in an even heavier version. Totally approve the idea about titanium shells, too.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

dgw7000 said:


> After 6 months of hard MTB riding on East Coast, still spin forever and not one problem. So smooth!! Now Jim when will they get lighter? 100g or so!!


Hopefully never.


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## dudeist (Apr 3, 2013)

My 190x12mm thru is approx. 560grams with steel shimano/sram freehub. Going to use it for my Fatboy but wondering if I should get end caps to convert to 190QR or look for drop-down thru-axle for more stiffness. Judging by threads here, should be a big enough market for someone to produce a thru-axle because the Fatboy needs a very stiff hub for us 200+ lb. riders. My Hope QR hub is just barely holding on.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

verrocchio100 said:


> Any long term usage feedback info fellas?


I have been on them for roughly a year now and am still a huge fan.

The real test for me is having them on my fatbike and having my little boy sitting behind me on the kiddie seat. Lots of weight, lots of stress and lots of traction! Hubs are still perfect and have never skipped a beat.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

While I don't have Onyx hubs, I know several that do, and they love them. I have read of several tandem riders with Onyx hubs, and I can't possibly think of a bike that would place greater demands of its hubs. That should be a testament of their qualities.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

Cleared2land said:


> While I don't have Onyx hubs, I know several that do, and they love them. I have read of several tandem riders with Onyx hubs, and I can't possibly think of a bike that would place greater demands of its hubs. That should be a testament of their qualities.


My local shop that has sold many sets of Onyx hubs with Derby rims, 0 problems with everyone loving the silent wheels. I was the first since I introduced the shop owner the Jim G. of Onyx. Jim is a very passionate about his hubs and passion drives only the best parts and guality that go into making Onyx so special!! Seems everyone now knows Onyx.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

A buddy of mine toured Onyx and helped assemble the rear hub I now have on my fat bike. I am the (mtbr named) unofficial durability tester for fat bike rear hubs, so if I cannot break them...rest assured they will be fine for 99.99999% of the people in the world.


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

Seems the same as the already existing True precision silent hub.
Stealth MTB Rear Hub | True Precision Components

would be interested in a light al mountain" version


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## OriginalDonk (Jul 8, 2009)

The mechanism is different. Onyx uses a sprag clutch, True Precision uses a roller clutch. I suggest you read the first post of the thread.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

20.100 FR said:


> Seems the same as the already existing True precision silent hub.
> Stealth MTB Rear Hub | True Precision Components
> 
> would be interested in a light al mountain" version


Totally different type of clutch system. Roller clutch vs Sprag clutch. There are some great vids on youtube showing how they are vastly different.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Some of the other notable differences include Metric sized bearings in Onyx vs Imperial sized ones in TP, and better sealing in Onyx vs TP. At least as compared to TP generation S2.

A very important advantage of DJ/SS Onyx over TP Poacher is the HG splined driver body vs using proprietary cogs.


(This is coming from a long time user, and fan, of TP Poacher S2. I'm extremely spoiled with the silence and the instant engagement, and guys at TP rock.)


PS.
There are also differences between TP and Onyx in how axles, hub shells, and driver bodies carry loads, and other, smaller ones, but none of these make either choice better or worse for the end user.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

verrocchio100 said:


> Any long term usage feedback info fellas?


I have 9 months on mine and they are still as smooth and silent as day one. Excellent hubs.


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## Derp (Aug 20, 2013)

Nobl is providing wheels using Nobl branded hubs which are made exclusively by Onyx. This is for anyone wanted to buy a factory carbon wheel with sprag clutch technology.

https://noblwheels.com/products/27-5-33mm-wheelset


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

One thing I don't like is how loose my XT cassette fits on the fh body. Almost like the fh body is about 1mm too small in diameter.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

drench it in loctite.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

car bone said:


> drench it in loctite.


Come on man, be reasonable. Just wrap some duct tape around it. I can't remember any notable fit issue with mine, no tape or loctite was required, I am running a Garbaruk extender with 7/10 of an XT cassette. It spins happy and true, but there does seem to be a lot of leeway in the industry. I have had combinations of parts that would barely go together and others that were disturbingly loose but never one that caused a problem once assembled and torqued up.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

car bone said:


> drench it in loctite.


How about I drench you in loctite...not talking blue stuff either!


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Doing that will hardly make your cassette fit tighter on the freehub though.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Derp said:


> Nobl is providing wheels using Nobl branded hubs which are made exclusively by Onyx. This is for anyone wanted to buy a factory carbon wheel with sprag clutch technology.
> 
> https://noblwheels.com/products/27-5-33mm-wheelset


Whoa. At current exchange rate their canuckistan price works out to $1382 US. I like to roll my own but thats not bad at all.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

car bone said:


> Doing that will hardly make your cassette fit tighter on the freehub though.


But it will make my pants tighter in the front.


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## Derp (Aug 20, 2013)

92gli said:


> Whoa. At current exchange rate their canuckistan price works out to $1382 US. I like to roll my own but thats not bad at all.


I know! Thankfully the US dollar is strong right now compared to our Loonie, For you guys at least. There are some good deals to be had.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

I have two Onyx rear hubs, both on fatbikes. One is 177mm, the other is 217mm. I ordered these from Onyx because my all-time favorite hubs, DT Swiss, weren't (at the time) available in 177 or 217.

The bike with the 177 rear hub is ridden unloaded, on techy day rides. The bike with the 217 is often ridden loaded on overnighters and multi-day trips. Can be anywhere from 50 to 80# when loaded as such.

I've never really noticed anything about the 177 hub, other than it is so quiet that I've spent more time fine-tuning the rear brake on that bike than any brake, on any bike, ever before.

The very first ride on the 217 hub was a multiday desert bike/boat trip. The bike was easily 75#, maybe more, and I had another ~20# on my back in water and camera gear. And I immediately noticed something odd about the hub: sponginess, or very soft engagement.

In other words, if I apply both brakes and press down on the pedals, while the wheels don't move a millimeter, the cranks will rotate forward and the cassette will rotate forward. An alarming amount, actually.

Make sense? The amount that the pedals can rotate as the cassette is also rotating is boggling. Something like 45-50 degrees before it finally firms up and stops moving. This is not 'free play'. Windup would be a better word.

And, as we were crossing a vast chunk of desert landscape without benefit of trail, road, or bike shops along the way, I started to get really paranoid that something had been misassembled inside this hub. My bad for taking it immediately onto a 'deep' trip without even a short shakedown ride, but there I was. Worried that it was going to implode or explode and leave me with at least a 60-mile walk out, I started walking the steeper climbs. This is where the sponginess was most notable -- steep grade, good traction, heavy bike. Felt like the pedals were giving way a bit and then bouncing back at me on every stroke.

I soft-pedaled and walked through every notable climb on this 5-day traverse, then when I got home I emailed Onyx to ask how to remove this sponginess from the hub.

And to my surprise they said it was normal.

Uhhh, _what?_

Here's a quote from our email string:

_"First of all, a sprag clutch is always engaged, even when not pedaling your bike actually.

This is what contributes to the true instant engagement. If you chose to drive your bike forward (without brakes), it would instantly do so. As more torque is put into the system, sprag clutches "wedge" or "standup" even further to deliver more torque to the system. This is what you are seeing when preventing the bike from moving forward and applying torque to the cranks."_

I understood what he was saying but I still struggled with the idea that my hub was _supposed_ to feel this way. Do other people not notice this? It feels, to me, like something is broken, or bent, or otherwise not right with the hub.

I asked for some clarification, and the next reply I got was:

_"You would never feel this if you were riding or allowing the bike to move forward. But is the case where you are up against a wall or have the brakes applied, you will see the sprags wedging further or standing up to handle the torque applied."_

And that's the kicker -- I felt it *immediately* when I laced this hub, and I feel it on every climb when I'm in either of my two easiest gears. Like there are rubber bands effecting the engagement.

I've gotten used to lots of weird things on bikes over the past few decades. As long as they don't fail outright, quirky bits can enrich the riding experience.

But this feel? This might be a bridge too far for me.


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## Derp (Aug 20, 2013)

Yes there is some springiness with a sprag hub when standing still, but moving you would never notice that because it has no negative impact on your riding. That springiness goes away while you're moving and translates to instant engagement. It actually has "deadened" my bike but in a good way. Like, there is zero noise and the drivetrain is damped against the clang of a regular pawl system. All I can hear now are the knobs of my tires and that's a beautiful thing.

I was told that Onyx hubs were tested to something like 4 or 5 million hard torque cycles and there were no failures? It was a crazy high number.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I don't know how much the total amount of your rig is with you on it, but I am guessing mine is 295lbs max. I don't haul anything, other than my fat a$$ up hills. I did notice the issue you are talking about with the brakes applied while pushing down on the cranks, and I remember nurse ben talking about this. But I cannot say that I have noticed it at all while riding. Because our trails are wet now, I have been riding a lot of deer trails..which means lots and lots of tight, quick, low speed action, fallen tree type of riding (deer don't consider us mtbr's when constructing a trail I guess). I have also done some very steep climbs. I cannot say I have every felt any softness while riding, but I am kinda numb to such things I think....others might be able to tell. 

I was able to lift my front end and climb just fine, and it felt no different than my I9.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Derp said:


> Yes there is some springiness with a sprag hub when standing still, but moving you would never notice that because it has no negative impact on your riding.


I've already said that I *do* notice it. Right from the get-go on my very first ride, and increasingly on every ride since.

Perhaps I should be the one that determines what impact it has on my riding, and not you?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

mikesee said:


> I've already said that I *do* notice it. Right from the get-go on my very first ride, and increasingly on every ride since.
> 
> Perhaps I should be the one that determines what impact it has on my riding, and not you?


I think you chould keep going after ONYX on this (and possibly dont pay as much attention to what fanboys are saying - deal direct with the manufacturer - they seem pretty solid).

Is it possible to weight up the other hub you have and see if you can get a similar feeling?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

006_007 said:


> I think you chould keep going after ONYX on this (and possibly dont pay as much attention to what fanboys are saying - deal direct with the manufacturer - they seem pretty solid).
> 
> Is it possible to weight up the other hub you have and see if you can get a similar feeling?


Onyx has said it's normal. The question is whether I can get used to it.

No other hub in the shop feels this way.


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

I've ridden some technical climbs with mine, where basically I'm stalled for a moment with all of my weight on the pedal and pulling up hard on the bars, and have never noticed any slipping. I'd assume just a few degrees would be noticeable similar to what a spinning tire is like in this situation. I'm only 160 pounds though on a 2.2 tire so probably not near as much torque as your case. 

I'd hope Onyx would work with you since you have 2 of their rear hubs and can't replicate this with both.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mikesee, have you looked inside the hub?


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

mikesee said:


> I have two Onyx rear hubs, both on fatbikes. One is 177mm, the other is 217mm. I ordered these from Onyx because my all-time favorite hubs, DT Swiss, weren't (at the time) available in 177 or 217.
> 
> The bike with the 177 rear hub is ridden unloaded, on techy day rides. The bike with the 217 is often ridden loaded on overnighters and multi-day trips. Can be anywhere from 50 to 80# when loaded as such.
> 
> ...


the only thing that could theoretically cause this is if the clutch was slipping due to wrong grease or similar (too low temps maybe, oil/grease gets too stiff)). Or possibly if the axle/freehub sliding surface (like in a tp construction) was too small. or like in the onyx if the outer tube/shell piece that the sprag will lock too/slide against is too large. Probably only takes a few 0,01mm out of spec to make it partially slip (which is what you are experiencing).

You have faulty hub imo


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

mikesee said:


> Onyx has said it's normal. The question is whether I can get used to it.
> 
> No other hub in the shop feels this way.


I know my Onyx hubs have some "wind up" in them, just not as much as you are experiencing. I wonder if a sprag was missed when it was assembled. You should have 2, I wonder if only 1 was dropped in. Sounds strange.

Have you taken it apart and seen what the guts look like? Here are some links if you haven't seen them.

Part 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jmnh0np95i1fp0/Mtb1of2.mov?dl=0

Part 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncp17s91cavxok1/Mtb2of2.mov?dl=0


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

If you feel it in one hub but not the other the conclusion is obv. Are you SURE you felt it while riding, and it wasn't just a placebo effect?


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

dustyduke22 said:


> I know my Onyx hubs have some "wind up" in them, just not as much as you are experiencing. I wonder if a sprag was missed when it was assembled. You should have 2, I wonder if only 1 was dropped in. Sounds strange.
> 
> Have you taken it apart and seen what the guts look like? Here are some links if you haven't seen them.
> 
> ...


Even with 1 lockup should be instant instant imo. It might not manage much torque of the long run but initially it should be rock solid.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

jonshonda said:


> If you feel it in one hub but not the other the conclusion is obv. Are you SURE you felt it while riding, and it wasn't just a placebo effect?


He said its slipping, then its slipping. and it caused by one of the reasons i just posted.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

My tp has been rock solid though. i have no idea what this onyx craze is all about since its pretty much the same mechanism at action here to make it lock up. My tp has been rock solid for 15000km at least. mostly in rain. i need to swap 1 bearing out now but still its quuite good durablility of that hub. didn't do jack sh1t to it for that period. i will swap all bearings though.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

mikesee said:


> And, as we were crossing a vast chunk of desert landscape without benefit of trail, road, or bike shops along the way, I started to get really _*paranoid*_ that something had been misassembled inside this hub.


Paranoid is an unjustified fear. I would place your concerns as justified.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

I ride techy chunk most of the time. I also ratchet to negotiate features a lot so I fully use the Onyx as it was intended. Yes, there is a slight, very slight feeling of "softness", but now I never even think about the hub, either it's remarkable quietness or the slightly instant engagement. It just has disappeared form the radar. With my I-9 and 240s I was always aware of the hub, in engagement and/or sound.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

car bone said:


> He said its slipping, then its slipping. and it caused by one of the reasons i just posted.


It is not slipping, I know exactly what he is referring to as I have the same hub. Basically the initial engagement is instant but not locked, and between the time the sprags initially engage and completely lock, there is a soft of spongy feeling (what onyx described as the sprags standing up as more torque is applied). Think of it like a big ol' drag slick on a high horsepower car. Launching off the line the tire is in contact with the ground, but as the wheel spins the tire wrinkles a bit then the car launches. Nothing is slipping, but it isn't a 100% on/off feeling.



car bone said:


> My tp has been rock solid though. i have no idea what this onyx craze is all about since its pretty much the same mechanism at action here to make it lock up.


The TP roller clutch system and Onyx Sprag clutch systems are actually very different. Google both and you will see the achieve engagement in two totally different methods with very different parts. The reason onyx is big in the fat bike world is they will make you whatever size you need, and are a proven bulletproof design by years and years of very abusive BMX testing. Mikesee would not be riding the bike he is right now w/o onyx?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

car bone said:


> He said its slipping, then its slipping. and it caused by one of the reasons i just posted.


Did he actually say that it was slipping?


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

i enterpret this as slipping:


> And I immediately noticed something odd about the hub: sponginess, or very soft engagement.
> 
> In other words, if I apply both brakes and press down on the pedals, while the wheels don't move a millimeter, the cranks will rotate forward and the cassette will rotate forward. An alarming amount, actually.
> 
> Make sense? The amount that the pedals can rotate as the cassette is also rotating is boggling. Something like 45-50 degrees before it finally firms up and stops moving. This is not 'free play'. Windup would be a better word.


jonshonda: i know how both of them works and how they look inside. I still think his hub is out of spec or broken. It should be like 4-5deg at most imo and not 50. and even 4-5 isn't good.


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## Derp (Aug 20, 2013)

I overlooked the part where he said 45-50 degrees. Yeah, you've got something wrong with your hub.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Also i think if the actual small "wedges" that stand up in the sprag clutch is machined to the wrong profile or slightly too small or something I guess you could get that same problem too. I think thats highly unlikely though, but possible. if its a 2 doohickey hub its even less likely.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Cleared2land said:


> Did he actually say that it was slipping?


It was probably really loose spokes due to the amateur that built the wheel. 

Seriously though. I've sampled the onyx hubs twice now, and there is a very very slight squish thing that happened when I backpedaled a little and then applied power quickly in a low gear. It's like your squashing an elastomer bushing a little bit. BUT, whatever that dead zone was in actual degrees, it was still less than my king hub, which is impressive.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

car bone said:


> the only thing that could theoretically cause this is if the clutch was slipping due to wrong grease or similar (too low temps maybe, oil/grease gets too stiff)). Or possibly if the axle/freehub sliding surface (like in a tp construction) was too small. or like in the onyx if the outer tube/shell piece that the sprag will lock too/slide against is too large. Probably only takes a few 0,01mm out of spec to make it partially slip (which is what you are experiencing).
> 
> You have faulty hub imo


It's not slipping. When I tension the pedals as described, you can see the chain load up, and the cassette and pedals start to rotate forward -- and they continue rotating until a certain point (basically when I can't push any harder) and then they stop. There is never a slip in there. When I release tension from the pedals the whole system unwinds and backs up.

I will try to shoot a video of it, but no camera at work today.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

jonshonda said:


> It is not slipping, Think of it like a big ol' drag slick on a high horsepower car. Launching off the line the tire is in contact with the ground, but as the wheel spins the tire wrinkles a bit then the car launches. Nothing is slipping, but it isn't a 100% on/off feeling.


This is a good way to put it.

I've never really given a rip about high engagement. I've owned fast engaging hubs and I just never notice it either way. I can ride an 18 POE DT hub one day and a 72 POE King (or whoever) the next, and whatever difference is there just doesn't amount to a hill of beans for me. I am still the weak link in the equation.

So I didn't buy Onyx because of the hyped up engagement, nor for the silence when coasting. I wanted to try something new, and I did. I was surprised that I hadn't heard more about this spongy feel, because it's infinitely more noticeable to me than any amount (or lack of) engagement.

And I didn't come here to throw Onyx under the bus. I reached out to them first, and I think I've shared their correspondence in a favorable light. There's nothing wrong with the hub per se, it just didn't match my expectations.

Maybe others reading this will realize that this feel is *exactly* what they want, because it prevents the tire slipping in steep/loose/low traction situations, or something like that.

I will continue to ride it, and if I can get used to the feel and it seems like I can trust it long-term for the 'out there' trips I do on this bike, then I'll keep it. If I can't, I'll sell it and move on.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

I was just out trying to provoke my hub in doing the same. But I got zero movement. I mean zero. I think you have a faulty hub there. Especially if only one of the hubs is doing it. Warranty the hub imo.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

mikesee, I honestly think you just need to ride it more and NOT concentrate on the pedals. Just ride some of the hardest stuff you can and be honest with yourself with regards to the sponginess. I often get all hyped up over something that isn't a big deal after I settle down for a few days. 

My buddy just barrowed my rear wheel and if he wouldn't have read your comments here, would not have known any difference (when brakes are applied and pushing down on the pedal). We hit some pretty steep hills, had to pop the front up a lot for log overs, and did a nice baby head rock climb. He didn't mention it one time. 

Also, you do realize that 45 degrees is 1/4 of a pedal stroke. You can make the pedal go from 3'oclock to 6'oclock when standing on the pedal w/ brakes locked? I get maybe..MAYBE 20 degrees when standing on it, but honestly cannot feel it at all riding.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

jonshonda said:


> mikesee, I honestly think you just need to ride it more and NOT concentrate on the pedals. Just ride some of the hardest stuff you can and be honest with yourself with regards to the sponginess. I often get all hyped up over something that isn't a big deal after I settle down for a few days.
> 
> My buddy just barrowed my rear wheel and if he wouldn't have read your comments here, would not have known any difference (when brakes are applied and pushing down on the pedal). We hit some pretty steep hills, had to pop the front up a lot for log overs, and did a nice baby head rock climb. He didn't mention it one time.
> 
> Also, you do realize that 45 degrees is 1/4 of a pedal stroke. You can make the pedal go from 3'oclock to 6'oclock when standing on the pedal w/ brakes locked? I get maybe..MAYBE 20 degrees when standing on it, but honestly cannot feel it at all riding.


I don't need to concentrate on the pedals to feel it and be weirded out by it. I can be focusing on the view, an upcoming photo op, a conversation with a riding partner -- anything and everything else -- and then there it is, unmistakeable on every stroke as the grade gets steep.

45 degrees is 1/8 of a crank revolution, not 1/4. As in 45 x 8 = 360. I don't have anyone else here to get down and verify the exact positions of the pedals, but standing over the bike I can push the right pedal from 3 o' clock to at least 5 o'clock, probably a little more, without the bike moving so much as a millimeter.

I have not had the hub apart yet. No "free" time to do this, largely because other projects are pressing and I have no plans to ride this bike much or far in the immediate future.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

92gli said:


> It was probably really loose spokes due to the amateur that built the wheel.


I'm not sure if you're being facetious, or what?

Mike, do you know anything about building wheels?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Interesting mechanics. What gearing are you in that nets the 3 to 5 o'clock effect? 26x44? Lower?


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

mikesee said:


> I
> I've never really noticed anything about the 177 hub, other than it is so quiet that I've spent more time fine-tuning the rear brake on that bike than any brake, on any bike, ever before.


That is funny stuff! 
Regarding the strange behavior of the 217 hub, however, I wonder if the "wind-up" phenomenon is specific to the hub size. It sounds like the 177 doesn't do it, but the 217 does. I can't remember from the Brrrly thread - but if the 217 is a one-off, it seems like the chance of something being slightly out of tolerance may be greater.
Does this sound like a possibility? What if the distance between the shell of the hub (the surface the outer part/top of the sprag contacts) and the driver (the surface that the inner part/bottom of the sprag contacts) - was just a small amount more than intended - the sprags would need to "stand up" straighter before locking the rotational movement of the driver and hub shell. As they rotated more to get to the the wedge point, it seems like the driver/cassette would noticeably rotate further and produce a "wind up".


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

It could be a few different things. Most suspect is our tolerance stack, may be on the low end of things, causing the greatest amount of distance for the sprag to actuate. This coupled with a special 217/12 hub, heavy load, flex/etc could all contribute to it being so pronounced on this particular bike. I'll have to contact Mike tomorrow and see what we can do. We only made a handful of these for him so there is not a lot of feedback on it yet.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

mikesee said:


> I don't need to concentrate on the pedals to feel it and be weirded out by it. I can be focusing on the view, an upcoming photo op, a conversation with a riding partner -- anything and everything else -- and then there it is, unmistakeable on every stroke as the grade gets steep.
> 
> 45 degrees is 1/8 of a crank revolution, not 1/4. As in 45 x 8 = 360.


Yeah, I realized my math was fubar on my ride into work this morning. If you don't notice it on the 177 but do on the 217, then wouldn't you say its an isolated issue with the 217? How much time do you have riding on the 177? My guess is the o.d. of the drive shell (where the sprags contact) might be a mil or two undersized, meaning the sprags need to stand up a little bit more before they lock into place.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

mikesee said:


> I've already said that I *do* notice it. Right from the get-go on my very first ride, and increasingly on every ride since.
> 
> Perhaps I should be the one that determines what impact it has on my riding, and not you?


I was the 1st to mention this play a while back in another thread talking about high engagement hubs. It's real and can be felt, I have gotten used to it. Not a race bike hub!!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

jonshonda, note how you used the term stroke and mikesee used the term revolution. By stroke you could have meant the part of revolution where quadriceps muscle works.

dgw7000, what's your setup?


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

Niner WFO 29er 142x12 and 100x15, xx1 set-up. Wide Derby 35mm carbon rims. 2.35 tires


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

This feeling will be accentuated by the gear ratio. Say it is a 28t/42t, that gives you .67 wheel rotation per 1 revolution of the crank. 28/42 = .67, now take that divided by 1 full rotation, .67/360=.0019 wheel rotation per degree. He was talking 45-50 degrees, which is .08 to .09 total wheel rotation before complete lockup. The work that goes into this 45-50 degree is energy stored in the clutch, elastic potential energy to be exact. Because force is proportional to the displacement you are not loosing anything. It is a feel thing, I get that, but it is an extremely efficient hub. We had Duke University do a study on ours as well as other hubs on the market, I have some of the results back and it is located here. https://www.dropbox.com/s/cs2g251nz9faz14/dev-wheel-spindown.pdf?dl=0 These were the final top five of the hubs tested. I will post the rest of the results from Duke when they are finished and I believe they will be publishing these also. With that said, they among many other universities are using our hubs on their long milage vehicles simply for their efficiency.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

jonshonda said:


> Yeah, I realized my math was fubar on my ride into work this morning. If you don't notice it on the 177 but do on the 217, then wouldn't you say its an isolated issue with the 217? How much time do you have riding on the 177? My guess is the o.d. of the drive shell (where the sprags contact) might be a mil or two undersized, meaning the sprags need to stand up a little bit more before they lock into place.


Similar amounts of time overall on 177 vs. 217. If I focus on the 177 I can feel it. I think the main difference is all the added mass of luggage on the 217 -- as soon as the trail points up that added ~40+ pounds means something.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mikesee said:


> I think the main difference is all the added mass of luggage on the 217 -- as soon as the trail points up that added ~40+ pounds means something.


Does the wind-up decrease proportionally when you try it with luggage removed? (You may need a steeper grade to test it vs the same force and gearing though, if traction still permits that.)


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> This feeling will be accentuated by the gear ratio.


Thanks for chiming in, Jim. Direct communication with everyone at Onyx has been stellar.

I am running a 26 x 44 on this bike. Still not *quite* low enough for the way and places we ride these bikes. When Wolftooth releases a 24t stainless ring to fit these cranks, I'll have one.

Here's a vid that hopefully helps to explain what my words might not have thus far.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

^What I was hoping for is video of you going from a track stand/very low speed and a using a sudden burst of energy to propel yourself moving forward. Not trying to be rude, but standing on the pedals with the brakes applied isn't a very good representation of typical riding behavior. 

I run a 34x42t so I am guessing that is part of the reason I don't feel anything different.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

jonshonda said:


> ^What I was hoping for is video of you going from a track stand/very low speed and a using a sudden burst of energy to propel yourself moving forward. Not trying to be rude, but standing on the pedals with the brakes applied isn't a very good representation of typical riding behavior.
> 
> I run a 34x42t so I am guessing that is part of the reason I don't feel anything different.


Fear not, the video wasn't made for you.

No video made without really, really expensive equipment is going to show anything like what you want to see when the subject/object is in motion. No way.

I made the video not because it represents an actual riding situation, but because it shows what I feel when I _am_ riding: sponginess.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

mikesee said:


> Thanks for chiming in, Jim. Direct communication with everyone at Onyx has been stellar.
> 
> I am running a 26 x 44 on this bike. Still not *quite* low enough for the way and places we ride these bikes. When Wolftooth releases a 24t stainless ring to fit these cranks, I'll have one.
> 
> Here's a vid that hopefully helps to explain what my words might not have thus far.


ok thats not 1/8rev at the pedals. maybe 1/16. also at the cassette its at most, I dont know maybe 15 degrees. I think its a compound problem with thast whole bike though. Everything seems super flexy and spongy everything from the frame and the chain to the cranks  or maybe its just me?

I'm guessing fine tuning the tolerances inside the hub (and thickness of stock) can probably make the hub rock solid from the first lockup, just like my tp. When its locked its just locked.

and of courswe the gear ratio will make it worse.

Can you make another vid in the highest gear instead. So we have both extremes?


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> This feeling will be accentuated by the gear ratio.


That explains why I haven't felt any of the issues on my singlespeed. If my chain is loose I'll feel the slack take up, but when properly tightened, the power feels like it's there instantly with no sponginess or lag.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

What is the material that the sprags mate to when locking up and how thick/strong/stiff is that material? I mean does the sprags mate to something really solid (like several mm of hardened steel) or just alu and some thin steel shim? Or just alu? alu only has 1/3 the "stiffness" of steel so that could make stuff flexy imo in a situation like this. 

On a tp hub the freehub is the mating surface/inner race for the clutch. the freehub is hardened steel at least 50hrc and polished. And outsude the clutch to prevent it from distortion is the actual hub. as some of you may know its looks kinda wavy. that bigger diameter is what prevents the clutch from expanding. that alu is like 10mm thick. Thats what it takes to make it unflexy. and several, like 5mm of hardened steel on the other side. 
But it is rock solid though. so I'm not complaining.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I think there's a thick steel ring pressed into the hub shell in Onyx hubs. Sprags slide on its inner, polished and lubricated surface, and press on it when they lock up.

With TP hubs, there's also a thick steel ring, except it's maybe not pressed, but screwed into hub shell against a stop. And it doesn't need to be polished because the needle roller cartridge is pressed into it.

I think that ring stiffness and its ID tolerances are about the same for both Onyx and TP.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks for the update Mike, that gearing will put you around 1/2 wheel turn per rev. of the cranks, massive amounts of torque going to the hub, not sure there is any other bike application that would resemble this. It definitely is going to be a feel thing, you can see in the video the energy releasing back into the cranks when you lift up, it has to or the hub would still be engaged. I'd say if this was a bigger market for these I'd make a different version that would eliminate this, but I'm not sure I'd ever recoup the costs. I have a few options to discuss with you to reduce this on this particular hub, give me a call when you get a chance.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

car bone said:


> What is the material that the sprags mate to when locking up and how thick/strong/stiff is that material? I mean does the sprags mate to something really solid (like several mm of hardened steel) or just alu and some thin steel shim? Or just alu? alu only has 1/3 the "stiffness" of steel so that could make stuff flexy imo in a situation like this.
> 
> On a tp hub the freehub is the mating surface/inner race for the clutch. the freehub is hardened steel at least 50hrc and polished. And outsude the clutch to prevent it from distortion is the actual hub. as some of you may know its looks kinda wavy. that bigger diameter is what prevents the clutch from expanding. that alu is like 10mm thick. Thats what it takes to make it unflexy. and several, like 5mm of hardened steel on the other side.
> But it is rock solid though. so I'm not complaining.


I think pretty much everyone here 'gets' that you like your TP hub. Cool. Now, move along?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Does the wind-up decrease proportionally when you try it with luggage removed? (You may need a steeper grade to test it vs the same force and gearing though, if traction still permits that.)


The feel is definitely less pronounced with less weight on the bike. But I can emphatically still feel it.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

mikesee said:


> Fear not, the video wasn't made for you.


Ouch!


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

mikesee said:


> I think pretty much everyone here 'gets' that you like your TP hub. Cool. Now, move along?


I'm not here to promote tp. but i still find it interesting comparing these 2 hubs since they are the 2 only real instant hubs. so I think my comparisons is valid in this thread. dont you?? and btw i'm trying to help you since you can't do that yourself. but yeah I don't need to post in this thread no more if thats what you want.

------------------------------
question to onyx!

Have you made any tests of what happens when the tolerances get big? or too small and so on? I'm guessing if the tolerances are too small the sprag will slip and then lock up but not very hard and if its too slack we have this phenomenon. I'm an ex machinist and I fully understand that a 0,01mm there and here makes a difference. Especially with these systems.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Jim,
could the issue with this particular hub be explained with driver body and outer ring being near the opposite ends of their tolerance ranges? That is, each part alone is OK and it's just an unfortunate combination of them in that hub instance?


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

It is not an issue as in a failure, it is a function of the force applied to actuate the clutch into a position to propel the bike forward. Tolerance is in the .001mm range. Making them tighter will cause a lot of drag. There is a tolerance stack between the press/inner ring/clutch/driver. The only thing we don't manufacture is the clutch and I don't have the ability to measure that on an individual basis. They are spec'd for our tolerance range so that could be a contributor. We are talking an extreme low gear range, 26/44. Take a look at the video and see how much the small gear on the cassette moves relative to the large gear, this will put it in perspective.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

That's actually how I expected that type of clutch to work. For drag free coasting, it needs to disengage just a hair for clearance, and when you pedal again it has to travel back that distance and then lock into place. Onyx says that it's supposed to be always engaged, which I believe is an exaggeration of saying it has minimum distance needed to clear for virtually instant engagement and still coast drag-free. Looks like the sprags slide in pretty easily in the service videos... I suspect what he does, that the clearance is a bit on the high/looser side.

When you said it is loaded with 70-90 lbs of gear, I actually expected even lower gears, in case of hills and resistance such as wind and snow. It's more noticable in lower gears, but 26x44 isn't really any lower than what people run on their 30 lb skinny tire bikes not hauling cargo. I suspect other things, like this is the same diameter axle (14-16mm?) that's 217mm wide and still supported by the same # of bearings, just spread out. What if the axle is deforming? Heck, there could even be hub shell deformation from the spoke tension.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

car bone said:


> I'm not here to promote tp. but i still find it interesting comparing these 2 hubs since they are the 2 only real instant hubs. so I think my comparisons is valid in this thread. dont you?? and btw i'm trying to help you since you can't do that yourself. but yeah I don't need to post in this thread no more if thats what you want.
> 
> ------------------------------
> question to onyx!
> ...


Too loose = won't engage, too tight = won't get parts together. The individual sprags are positioned such that they ride on the driver, they do not rotate with the hub body. Once force is applied they need to move to a point in their geometry to transfer the torque to from the cassette to the hub body. Most of the time the force required to move the bike forward is less than the full engagement, of course you reach this point faster with a very low gear.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

Varaxis said:


> That's actually how I expected that type of clutch to work. For drag free coasting, it needs to disengage just a hair for clearance, and when you pedal again it has to travel back that distance and then lock into place. Onyx says that it's supposed to be always engaged, which I believe is an exaggeration of saying it has minimum distance needed to clear for virtually instant engagement and still coast drag-free. Looks like the sprags slide in pretty easily in the service videos... I suspect what he does, that the clearance is a bit on the high/looser side.
> 
> When you said it is loaded with 70-90 lbs of gear, I actually expected even lower gears, in case of hills and resistance such as wind and snow. It's more noticable in lower gears, but 26x44 isn't really any lower than what people run on their 30 lb skinny tire bikes not hauling cargo. I suspect other things, like this is the same diameter axle (14-16mm?) that's 217mm wide and still supported by the same # of bearings, just spread out. What if the axle is deforming? Heck, there could even be hub shell deformation from the spoke tension.


It has to stay engaged all the time or it could never engage. Minimal, yes, but there is always engagement. In the video you see the installation of the clutch into the hub, you would be correct in having a minimal clearance. What you don't see is that when we put the driver into the inside of the clutch, it must be twisted backwards in order to insert it into the mechanism. This is the other halve of the equation that engages the clutch to the driver and inner sleeve. I have clear hub shells and cut-a-ways to demonstrate this.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> It is not an issue as in a failure, it is a function of the force applied to actuate the clutch into a position to propel the bike forward. Tolerance is in the .001mm range. Making them tighter will cause a lot of drag. There is a tolerance stack between the press/inner ring/clutch/driver. The only thing we don't manufacture is the clutch and I don't have the ability to measure that on an individual basis. They are spec'd for our tolerance range so that could be a contributor. We are talking an extreme low gear range, 26/44. Take a look at the video and see how much the small gear on the cassette moves relative to the large gear, this will put it in perspective.


Do you mean 0.01 mm tolerances here really? I mean going to thousands (0,001mm) is affected by the temperature of the air. Yeah opening the door of a 20C deg workshop in the winter will cause the machines to display like 0,005-6-7 lower or higher, fluctuating.

I have seen movement of 2 hundreds (0,02mm) with the machines standing still just the optical measuring system providing input. (steel contracting/expanding)

I'd say the smallest possible measurable part being able to be manufactured in a lathe or mill today is like 0,01mm. to make stuff measuring lower than that you need a 20C clean room (temp controlled) and ypui also need to grind the thing to specs. IMO.

Hell even machining like 10 peieces of something will cause the hardmetal cutter to shrink like 1-2 hundreds.

and to even measure 0.001mm you need to use a mikrokator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johansson_Mikrokator

If you are really working with 0.001mm tolerances (individual thousands) here i don't see how you can make money on this at all.

not even the best mori seiki machines will give this performance since its purely physics.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

car bone you are mistaken, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Been in this game a long time and work with these tolerances on a day to day basis.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> Too loose = won't engage, too tight = won't get parts together. The individual sprags are positioned such that they ride on the driver, they do not rotate with the hub body. Once force is applied they need to move to a point in their geometry to transfer the torque to from the cassette to the hub body. Most of the time the force required to move the bike forward is less than the full engagement, of course you reach this point faster with a very low gear.


I see. so its an its/or situation here?

But there have to be some mechanisms at work here. I see cassette as possible/ chain, 11/12sp sh1t/ cranks as light as possible carbon, and so forth.

But we can all se that the actual cassette is moving while he's applying torque to the pedals. so something is at work here inside the hub too. otherwise the cassette wouldn't have moved.

Is it possible that this very hub was out of ideal spec? Also could this be due to alu? and its flexibility? Or possiblöy the lenght of the hub causing a partial only engagement of the clutch? Maybe only half the clutch is really engaging due to weight/angle distortion?


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> car bone you are mistaken, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Been in this game a long time and work with these tolerances on a day to day basis.


Ok I see. I'm not gonna argue. but really can you confirm single thousands of a mm tolerances??

I rest my case if you say yes here no sh1t. And i also applaud you for making this precision happen. Its a hell of a feat imo. And its has to cost a sh1tload.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

car bone said:


> Ok I see. I'm not gonna argue. but really can you confirm single thousands of a mm tolerances??
> 
> I rest my case if you say yes here no sh1t. And i also applaud you for making this precision happen. Its a hell of a feat imo. And its has to cost a sh1tload.


The manufacturing tolerances are a lot closer than what you'd imagine them to be. I'm not going to post a drawing or anything but we machine in a very controlled environment.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

I see. I'm used to measuring hundreds at the machine. and thats all there is, talking thermal expansion and all that.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Maybe he machines other things with the less than new tooling that requires less precision, only using the freshest cutting tools to make the drive related parts of the hubs.


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

I was told by someone familiar with Onyx that the Manufacturer of the sprag clutch units was very impressed that Onyx had developed a way to utilize their sprag clutch for this application - when others had tried and failed. 
I wonder if one of the reasons Onyx was successful was d/t figuring out how to create and manage the tolerances needed.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Well, considering the weight of the hubs, maybe they use harder/stiffer materials. Surfaces all related to the drive mech made of maraging steel cut with a wire EDM (the ring inside the hubshell, and on the freehub, installed using heat/cooling for a permanent interference fit)... who knows. Maybe we're too pleb to imagine what kind of operation he has. All I know, with my imagination, I have a hard time figuring out how he makes money too... I'm even more interested now.

A decent quality ceramic bearing that rivals SKF steel ones aren't cheap, at least $40 per and there's 4-5 of them. Hubshell has to have at least $75 worth of machining time, considering the intricacy. Hmm, what else... maybe $200 covers the freehub, axle, end caps, and finishing. Not sure how much the sprags cost. That's pretty much asking price right there.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Varaxis said:


> Well, considering the weight of the hubs, maybe they use harder/stiffer materials. Surfaces all related to the drive mech made of maraging steel cut with a wire EDM (the ring inside the hubshell, and on the freehub, installed using heat/cooling for a permanent interference fit)... who knows. Maybe we're too pleb to imagine what kind of operation he has. All I know, with my imagination, I have a hard time figuring out how he makes money too... I'm even more interested now.
> 
> A decent quality ceramic bearing that rivals SKF steel ones aren't cheap, at least $40 per and there's 4 of them. Hubshell has to have at least $75 worth of machining time, considering the intricacy. Hmm, what else...


there is no exotic machining going on if you ask me.

the most exotic maching i have seen so far is the inside of the tp hub flanges around the spoke holes. they are perfectly chamfered. I always wondered how they did that.

edm is not really a high precision method, not for this purpose atleast. its a last ditch method for idiot designers imo. no one in their right mind will design parts that require edm. I have heard stories..

You always shrink/expand stuff for a press fit imo. I do it about every week on beefy hydraulic tools. 200-250mm bushings or so. I "weld them out" before with a stick welder/mma. that is I'm adding molten steel (maximum thermal expanded steel) and when it cools it contracts, then i can pull the bushing out with a fork lift  then I cool the new bushing with liquid nitro and put it in there. Its highly undramatic when I do it.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

It's a relative thing, compared to something more basic like a CNC'd stem that sells for around $50-100. In the hubshell alone, he has 3 bearing seats, a groove for a retaining ring, a labyrinth seal for the freehub, 6 threaded rotor holes, 32 chamfered spoke holes, has to machine it all out from a billet slug... can't be removing large swaths of material due to the number of surfaces that have specified dimensions with tolerances to meet. I guess if you compare to CK, and call it even on bearings, Onyx has more going into it, without the tolerances coming into play.

Again, press fits relative to other stuff in the bike industry. You can call it a joke and I'll sympathize; I'd take delrin shims over loose fitting metal-to-metal contact. Press fits on bikes are designed to be removed easily, perhaps with the help of a hammer. No getting stuff off a bike without getting a little more destructive than a few hammer taps if you did a real press fit. Have you seen how I9 puts together their drive ring nowadays? Not all in 1 piece like before. Cutting a thin ring out of a block of steel would be a $$$ inefficient use of material, with a lot going to scrap, even if they get the freehub's surface out of it too, which are the only 2 pieces he's responsible for crafting to extra tight tolerances.

By perfect chamfers on your TP hub, do you mean that they perfectly match the head of the spokes when tensioned?

Is the Onyx centerlock spline ring also made from steel? Wondering why its listed weight is so much more than the 6-bolt.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Varaxis said:


> It's a relative thing, compared to something more basic like a CNC'd stem that sells for around $50-100. In the hubshell alone, he has 3 bearing seats, a groove for a retaining ring, a labyrinth seal for the freehub, 6 threaded rotor holes, 32 chamfered spoke holes, has to machine it all out from a billet slug... can't be removing large swaths of material due to the number of surfaces that have specified dimensions with tolerances to meet. I guess if you compare to CK, and call it even on bearings, Onyx has more going into it, without the tolerances coming into play.
> 
> Again, press fits relative to other stuff in the bike industry. You can call it a joke and I'll sympathize; I'd take delrin shims over loose fitting metal-to-metal contact. Press fits on bikes are designed to be removed easily, perhaps with the help of a hammer. No getting stuff off a bike without getting a little more destructive than a few hammer taps if you did a real press fit. Have you seen how I9 puts together their drive ring nowadays? Not all in 1 piece like before. Cutting a thin ring out of a block of steel would be a $$$ inefficient use of material, with a lot going to scrap, even if they get the freehub's surface out of it too, which are the only 2 pieces he's responsible for crafting to extra tight tolerances.
> 
> By perfect chamfers on your TP hub, do you mean that they perfectly match the head of the spokes when tensioned?


they are perfectly and evenly chamfered around the edge of the spoke hole. on the inside of the flanges. Couldnt have done it better myself. Looks like they went in from outside the flange with a trianguler/conical cutter, smaller than the spoke hole obviusly and did it.

yeah well all edm ive seen has been like low surface quality. I mean you are eroding material off with electricty and a carbon filament/wire in a bath. Its not a focused ion beam cutter were talking here imo. You probaby could do all hub parts ith edm though, it would just take like 100x more time to do it, and wont be any better than conventional machining, probaby worse. A good purpose for edm is for the stamp tools for coins, and thats it pretty much (if you ask me). wanna go exotic, go focused ion beam 

to make any sense out of this you have to know that you are chasing seconds per part in a cnc machine. productivity, nickles and dimes. time is money. I used to make parts that had 8h of active machining time  beefy sh1t. we charged accordingly though, i think 400€ an hour (it was a very big 5-6 axis machine, prototype, one of few in that size).


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

if the cl spline is made from steel its awesome. but I have a feeling its not. too much hassle probably.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

FWIW Hope makes their hub pawls with EDM.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I rode 6-7" of wet snow last night, felt like I was dragging a boat anchor....I could not detect any softness in the pedal stroke.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

I have been following this thread all week but I have been too busy to participate so I will just toss my thoughts in now that I have some free time and a cold beer. I have been riding my Onyx hubs for several months now, on a variety of trails. I am entirely satisfied with them, and right now would immediately choose them again if I were building another set of wheels. And my buying experience was exceptional, especially from a small and growing company. So I have what some would call a raging fanboy view of them. 

I can say that the wind-up effect is real and easily noticeable if you are looking for it. And also something I never noticed until I did look for it. I remember the first mention of it in a post here, and I thought it sounded odd so I went over to my bike and I was surprised at how much I could get the cassette to wind up against the brakes. I don't believe it is much different from the video Mikesee posted, factoring in the difference in gearing. The hubs have such a solid feel in hand that it doesn't seem possible for them to have any flex. But then when I thought about how the sprag clutch works, it didn't seem so strange. When riding, the engagement feels as instant as the hubs make it feel when you are playing with them. There may be an inherent softness that more perceptive guys than me can feel, but I think that in most riding conditions it would be very difficult to notice. And I believe that practically all of the energy put into winding up the cassette in high effort bursts is returned the instant the burst tapers into normal effort.

All that being said, I also believe Mikesee when he says that he can feel what he describes as a sponginess. His rig and his riding are definitely on the fringes of mountain biking and he is putting some unique loads into his hubs. The nature of the hubs is to be very smooth and quiet with low friction and excellent engagement. The nature of the engagement mechanism does not allow for the solid mechanical lockup of a pawl or toothed mechanism, it's not a bug it's a feature? For me it is a feature since it just adds to the deliciously smooth feel of the wheelset. And maybe it helps protect the weaker parts of the drivetrain from shock loads. But maybe for Mikesee it is a bug since he is diving much deeper into the wind-up on a regular basis than most people ever will and he definitely feels it. From my experience, these hubs are far and away the best I have ever ridden and I no longer spend any time worrying about when my next broken hub will occur. I have rapidly developed the confidence in their strength and reliability that I hoped for from my research and conversation with Jim before purchase. They feel exactly as smooth and tight as day one and have given me zero concerns. Like all good parts, they fade into the bike and out of mind while riding. I do realize that I will need to put many more miles on them before they truly earn all of that high regard I am giving them now. But expectations are high. I hope Mikesee can find a solution to his concerns. From my understandings of the hub's strength based on what Jim told me about them and my experience with them, I don't think the wind-up is indicative of weakness. And in my riding it has zero negative impact on how they ride. But it may not be something that Mikesee can get beyond with his unique riding conditions.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

VonFalkenhausen said:


> ...and he definitely feels it.


This is really the crux. It feels odd, disconcerting, not at all like anything I've ever felt before. And I'm a (somewhat) old dog that's leery of the new and unproven.

I understand (albeit on a basic level) that what's happening is not a durability issue. It may take some time for me to wrap my brain around that and truly trust it enough for where this bike takes me. One reason for that is that the windup manifests itself in the spokes and nips -- I can literally hear them creaking and groaning as I diesel my overloaded pig uphill. Hard to ignore that, harder still to tell myself that it's all fine.

Jim is sending some oversized clutches for me to attempt to install. If they fit they will likely minimize the sponginess I'm feeling. If they don't he has offered to machine a slightly oversized driver to install in the current clutches. Either way it seems this problem is unique to this situation (one-off 217mm hub, uber-low gearing, heavy loads, pernickety human interface) and will be minimized shortly.

Glass half-full perspective: Perhaps this sponginess will be all the rage in a few years, as the less harsh power transfer means less tire slip/spin on steep, scratchy climbs. You heard it here first, although Specialized will no doubt contend that and then sue everybody...


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mikesee said:


> One reason for that is that the windup manifests itself in the spokes and nips -- I can literally hear them creaking and groaning as I diesel my overloaded pig uphill. Hard to ignore that, harder still to tell myself that it's all fine.


But imagine if all else being the same, there was no wind-up. Hub flanges, spokes and the rim would still see the same forces that have to be there to move the bike.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

J. Random Psycho said:


> But imagine if all else being the same, there was no wind-up. Hub flanges, spokes and the rim would still see the same forces that have to be there to move the bike.


This was my first thought, too. I think if anything, this situation would be improved with the hub smoothing out the application of torque through the wheel. And ultimately, that is what is happening here, the hub is taking the edge off of the power impulses from the rider, usually but in some cases not always imperceptibly. And sponginess is maybe not the best way to describe this effect because it could imply inefficiency, which is not the case.

This same function is often designed into drivetrains outside of the cycling world, for example most automotive clutch discs have small coil springs set into them for smoothing out clutch take-up and power pulses from the engine.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

mikesee said:


> I understand (albeit on a basic level) that what's happening is not a durability issue. It may take some time for me to wrap my brain around that and truly trust it enough for where this bike takes me.


The strength of the sprag clutch hub design was one of the primary factors in my purchase, I have had enough problems with traditional hub designs over the years to be willing to buy myself out of worrying about it anymore. I originally was going to go with Chris King, but the silence of the Onyx Racing and TP Stealth designs had always been appealing and upon further review while waiting for my King hubs to become available I ended up going with Onyx.

I had an interesting conversation with Jim as part of my purchase decision and durability was the focus of my questions. As I recall, and I hope Jim corrects me if I am getting any of this wrong, the hubs were tested under loads well beyond what a human cyclist could deliver, up until failure. Except they don't fail in the traditional sense in that the drive mechanism doesn't break, but at some point it will slip. And after the torque overload is removed, the hub regains full function. I can't think of another hub, with the possible exception of TP, that could survive being loaded to that point without being destroyed. Now maybe there are hubs that could handle the torque that an Onyx will slip at without breaking, but those hubs could not handle going beyond their yield point and survive like the Onyx. And even when exploring the wind-up characteristic by loading the drivetrain against the brakes, there was never a hint of slippage. I imagine the torque required to reach this point is very high indeed. And this slippage is very likely to be more pleasant than breaking a chain.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I spoke with Jim on the phone regarding things I might expect from my 197mm hub, and it is obv that he is very passionate about his products. I think about how far out of his way Jim went to create a custom hub for a customer, and how that customer found it appropriate to post negative reviews before getting everything sorted out with Onyx. I don't know if this is equivalent to a slap in the face, but its close. 

I applaud Mikesee for pushing the limits of fat biking and what can be done with the latest and greatest prototype gear, and his adventures are very inspirational. But the last few pages of this thread are the exact reason manufacturers don't want to put themselves out there regarding new gear w/o proper testing. Up until this point there have been zero negative reviews regarding the performance of any mainstream products from Onyx , but now that an untested/unproven prototype has been into use a negative cloud has been cast upon onyx. 

Maybe Jim should have make Mike sign a non-disclosure agreement, maybe he should have left him hanging w/o a hub at all. But Jim helped make this bike happen, and what does he get in return? Not trying to be a jerk, but honestly this is the worst possible way to reward someone for their hard work, especially when they will go out of their way regardless of additional costs to help make it right. 

End rant/


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> I think about how far out of his way Jim went to create a custom hub for a customer, and how that customer found it appropriate to post negative reviews before getting everything sorted out with Onyx. I don't know if this is equivalent to a slap in the face, but its close.
> ..........
> End rant/


I disagree

*Thread: Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement*

The topic seems pretty relevant to this thread^

The windup seems to be inherent to the design and is no big deal, and maybe even a bonus for some. Possibly not so good for others on a fully loaded fat bike. I didn't read it as a negative review, more of a ride report. Maybe I missed some posts?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

The designed windup certainly doesn't prevent me from wanting an Onyx hub badly.  Not going to feel it anyway as my gear ratios don't go below 1.1 (and usually it's 2.0 or near).

My only wishes would be a 6061 forged (then machined where needed) shell instead of 7075 fully machined one; and maybe bolts a-la Paul WORD for the bolt-up version, so there's a smooth piece going in dropouts, preventing wear in case the axle slips against dropout under load.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

jonshonda said:


> I spoke with Jim on the phone regarding things I might expect from my 197mm hub, and it is obv that he is very passionate about his products. I think about how far out of his way Jim went to create a custom hub for a customer, and how that customer found it appropriate to post negative reviews before getting everything sorted out with Onyx. I don't know if this is equivalent to a slap in the face, but its close.
> 
> I applaud Mikesee for pushing the limits of fat biking and what can be done with the latest and greatest prototype gear, and his adventures are very inspirational. But the last few pages of this thread are the exact reason manufacturers don't want to put themselves out there regarding new gear w/o proper testing. Up until this point there have been zero negative reviews regarding the performance of any mainstream products from Onyx , but now that an untested/unproven prototype has been into use a negative cloud has been cast upon onyx.
> 
> ...


Holy handwringing, Batman.

Nowhere in this thread has Onyx been disparaged by me. At every step along the way I have been up-front that this is a 'feel thing', and that the hub merely presented a different reality from the one I expected. Has it failed? No. Have I suggested that it did? No.

Jim and I talked on the phone a few days ago. The conversation was amicable, I suppose because he possesses reading comprehension abilities greater than those of the average MTBR poster. If he was bothered by anything written here by me, he didn't mention it. His willingness to send oversized sprags and (potentially) machine and ship a new driver seem evidence of such.

I've built many Onyx hubs to date for my customers. I will build many more.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mikesee said:


> I've built many Onyx hubs to date for my customers. I will build many more.


Hehe so I can officially envy you now 

Around here it's most likely the first and the only Onyx I'll get to build in the foreseeable future will be my own, just like it is with TP.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Hehe so I can officially envy you now
> 
> Around here it's most likely the first and the only Onyx I'll get to build in the foreseeable future will be my own, just like it is with TP.


Onyx will grow as a result of feedback from customers, this is all part of growing pains. I now know 16 people that have Onyx hubs in DE, many more to come!!


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

They're becoming pretty popular here. They and DT are my LBS's go-to hubs.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Down with the ratchets! Viva la silent clutch revolución!


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

Yesterday, rode my "other" bike with 240s hub. Wow, after riding my Onyx rear for so long, the 240s felt awful. Constantly aware of the ratchet sound, and the 36t engagement felt, well, archaic. I didn't notice so much going up to the Onyx, yes, I liked the noiseless motion, and the engagement, but the real test was going back to the traditional hub.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Simplemind said:


> Yesterday, rode my "other" bike with 240s hub. Wow, after riding my Onyx rear for so long, the 240s felt awful. Constantly aware of the ratchet sound, and the 36t engagement felt, well, archaic. I didn't notice so much going up to the Onyx, yes, I liked the noiseless motion, and the engagement, but the real test was going back to the traditional hub.


I love when people say that notice absolutely no difference between riding an Onyx hub and riding an 18 POE DT Swiss


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

dustyduke22 said:


> I love when people say that notice absolutely no difference between riding an Onyx hub and riding an 18 POE DT Swiss


A difference in noise, when coasting?

Absolutely.

Otherwise? Nada.

I'm glad that the engagement snobs have another quality option in Onyx. I'm also glad I'm not afflicted with that psychological issue... 

P.S. And I'll gladly take all of those worthless old 240s hubs off of people's hands, to save them from excess garage clutter...


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

mikesee said:


> A difference in noise, when coasting?
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> ...


I can't see how you can say that you notice no difference in engagement between a high POE hub and a low POE hub a with a straight face.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

dustyduke22 said:


> I can't see how you can say that you notice no difference in engagement between a high POE hub and a low POE hub a with a straight face.


I'm actually laughing when I say it, but I'm also 100% serious about the fact. Even when looking for it I just don't notice it. And I think it's funny, in a cute sort of way, that people like to get so worked up about it.

I once went and visited a friend that has some very, very technical trails in his backyard. He's very proud of them, and loves to show people around. He told me in no uncertain terms that I would 'get destroyed' and 'have my lunch eaten' by these trails if I showed up with a low POE hub.

Knowing that POE has just never mattered, I made a note of his hype but said nothing.

We spent 5+ hours out on his trails that day, playing and sessioning and rock crawling to our heart's content. In the end he made a few moves I didn't, and I made a few he didn't. More or less a draw. He's stronger than I, but more risk averse. The moves that he made that I couldn't were due to his strength. The ones that I made that he didn't were largely because I was willing to commit to something riskier. Hub engagement simply had no part in it.

When I asked him, later, where the trails were that were going to "destroy" me, he just shook his head and said he'd never seen anyone do so well on such a 'crappy' (<-his actual word) hub.

And, just as before, I simply didn't understand the hype. I can see a *minor* benefit for gate starts, but beyond that engagement is just something for people to talk about, and it makes no real difference on the trail.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

dustyduke22 said:


> I can't see how you can say that you notice no difference in engagement between a high POE hub and a low POE hub a with a straight face.


I've used 54t, 36t, and 18t Star Ratchets in my DT hubs. Used other, higher engagement hubs as well (King, etc).

Don't notice any difference besides the pitch/frequency.

I will also take your old-tech, worthless, low-POE DT 240s off of you. I'll even pay shipping.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

mikesee said:


> I'm actually laughing when I say it, but I'm also 100% serious about the fact. Even when looking for it I just don't notice it. And I think it's funny, in a cute sort of way, that people like to get so worked up about it.
> 
> I once went and visited a friend that has some very, very technical trails in his backyard. He's very proud of them, and loves to show people around. He told me in no uncertain terms that I would 'get destroyed' and 'have my lunch eaten' by these trails if I showed up with a low POE hub.
> 
> ...


I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point. No need rehashing our different views for pages 

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

What is the difference between the HyperGlide and regular Onyx mountain bike hubs?

Ed.

What does Onyx mean by "Widget" on the order menu?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ I have thought the same...HyperGlide and regular. The Onyx Web site leaves something to be desired when it comes to providing good product description and information. 

I have always thought of the Widgets as end caps, but that might not be correct.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

HyperGlide marked hubs are for Shimano cassettes, and for SRAM XD ones they should be marked XD I guess.

I saw the drive side nut that locks the axle to the driver body bearing's inner race being called "the widget" in one of Onyx maintenance videos.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

J. Random Psycho said:


> HyperGlide marked hubs are for Shimano cassettes, and for SRAM XD ones they should be marked XD I guess.


I don't know if I saw it noted anywhere, but if you are using a 10spd cassette with an Onyx hub you NEED a 1.8mm spacer between your largest cog and the fh body for it to work correctly.



J. Random Psycho said:


> I saw the drive side nut that locks the axle to the driver body bearing's inner race being called "the widget" in one of Onyx maintenance videos.


I am "guessing" they might not have had their naming convention dialed in when they made the videos. It was clear the person in the video was being coached, and really didn't know much about the correct procedures.


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## HillDancer (Dec 10, 2012)

Onyx MTB freehubs are 11 speed compatible. For the two frames with conventional 10mm dropouts I've installed a MTB Onyx non-XD on, Shimano 10speed cassettes need a 2.8mm spacer, SRAM a 1.8mm spacer. Both manufacturer's cassettes had room for an additional 1mm worth of spacer(s).


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

Onyx sent out a quick response.

Didn't realize HG was the free hub body. Was curious if it had to do with internals.

Interesting that a shop I was in yesterday had a super old yet new Shimano Silent Clutch rear hub in the display case. And now this


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

We have numerous free hub bodies available (8-currently), depending on the hub model. The four categories they all fall into are: Shimano-HG (Hyper-Glide Compatible), SRAM-XD (XD Compatible), Campagnolo 11-Speed, and a Onyx Proprietary one for our 20mm rear BMX hub. I'm sure you will hear these terms used in may different ways, I even been asked if we make Shimano XD free hub bodies, and no we don't, lol.

We do refer to the drive side nut, non-drive side spacers and cinch-nuts as widgets. We do this because they are offered in many different colors. Currently our "widgets" are available in Black, Red, Blue, Gold, Purple, Pink, Polished, Orange and Green. When our website is a little further along, this will be shown graphically to avoid confusion.

Yes, our video link we've sent to a few people was done on the fly, impromptu at best. We are working on our videos weekly and posting them to our YouTube channel, which a link is available on the homepage of our website. www.onyxrp.com

All our MTB & Road Shimano-HG free hub bodies are 11-Speed Spaced and are marked accordingly. We did this specifically to help future proof the hub compatibility for cassettes that will have more than 11-speeds. So if you use a 10-speed spaced cassette, like all 11-speed MTB cassettes currently are, you will need to use a 1.85mm spacer behind the cassette to get the correct spacing. It is different I know, but during our design phase we had the option to make a few small adjustments that would allow this feature to be added. We have been recently adding a sticker and a spacer to all of these free hubs indicating this, even though the free hub body is clearly marked "11-Speed".


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

VonFalkenhausen said:


> I have been following this thread all week but I have been too busy to participate so I will just toss my thoughts in now that I have some free time and a cold beer. I have been riding my Onyx hubs for several months now, on a variety of trails. I am entirely satisfied with them, and right now would immediately choose them again if I were building another set of wheels. And my buying experience was exceptional, especially from a small and growing company. So I have what some would call a raging fanboy view of them.
> 
> I can say that the wind-up effect is real and easily noticeable if you are looking for it. And also something I never noticed until I did look for it. I remember the first mention of it in a post here, and I thought it sounded odd so I went over to my bike and I was surprised at how much I could get the cassette to wind up against the brakes. I don't believe it is much different from the video Mikesee posted, factoring in the difference in gearing. The hubs have such a solid feel in hand that it doesn't seem possible for them to have any flex. But then when I thought about how the sprag clutch works, it didn't seem so strange. When riding, the engagement feels as instant as the hubs make it feel when you are playing with them. There may be an inherent softness that more perceptive guys than me can feel, but I think that in most riding conditions it would be very difficult to notice. And I believe that practically all of the energy put into winding up the cassette in high effort bursts is returned the instant the burst tapers into normal effort.
> 
> All that being said, I also believe Mikesee when he says that he can feel what he describes as a sponginess. His rig and his riding are definitely on the fringes of mountain biking and he is putting some unique loads into his hubs. The nature of the hubs is to be very smooth and quiet with low friction and excellent engagement. The nature of the engagement mechanism does not allow for the solid mechanical lockup of a pawl or toothed mechanism, it's not a bug it's a feature? For me it is a feature since it just adds to the deliciously smooth feel of the wheelset. And maybe it helps protect the weaker parts of the drivetrain from shock loads. But maybe for Mikesee it is a bug since he is diving much deeper into the wind-up on a regular basis than most people ever will and he definitely feels it. From my experience, these hubs are far and away the best I have ever ridden and I no longer spend any time worrying about when my next broken hub will occur. I have rapidly developed the confidence in their strength and reliability that I hoped for from my research and conversation with Jim before purchase. They feel exactly as smooth and tight as day one and have given me zero concerns. Like all good parts, they fade into the bike and out of mind while riding. I do realize that I will need to put many more miles on them before they truly earn all of that high regard I am giving them now. But expectations are high. I hope Mikesee can find a solution to his concerns. From my understandings of the hub's strength based on what Jim told me about them and my experience with them, I don't think the wind-up is indicative of weakness. And in my riding it has zero negative impact on how they ride. But it may not be something that Mikesee can get beyond with his unique riding conditions.


this actually disappoints me a little. i was under the impression that these would be as solid as the tp's but newer better tech, maybe more long lasting?? But it seems its isn't so. It seems these are not as solid as the 10-15yo tp's. I have the tp's and they are rock solid. Its an industrial clutch that has been made for ages. Only torque limiting feature is how well you sheild it with metal all round. unshielded in air i think it takes 30nm or so  but beef it up it takes much more.

I've had my tp's apart now several times just for fun and for that hub to even budge a single degree after engagement it means my hub shell has exploded. and it has not exploded yet. I'm only 70kg though. I run a 42 up front and a 11-30 out back. if yoy want to know.

the tp's are 0,fukn 0% spongy.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

car bone said:


> this actually disappoints me a little. i was under the impression that these would be as solid as the tp's but newer better tech, maybe more long lasting?? But it seems its isn't so.


In order to arrive at this conclusion you have either buried your head in the sand, or you lack reading comprehension, or you simply didn't read but chose to post this to feel better about your purchase.

All of which says more about you than Onyx.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

mikesee said:


> In order to arrive at this conclusion you have either buried your head in the sand, or you lack reading comprehension, or you simply didn't read but chose to post this to feel better about your purchase.
> 
> All of which says more about you than Onyx.


I have read the whole thread yes!

I dont give a f about my "purchase"! I can afford my hub. i bought it about 8 years ago. I dont give f about money. they come, they go. I spend it. so yes I dont give a fuk about money. 
and no i neither lack reading comprehension or englicz comprehension at all.

I feel much better now?
do you feel better?

I'm actually listening to modern talking now, lol.

good luck dude. drench yourself in blow. and go from there.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

car bone said:


> this actually disappoints me a little. i was under the impression that these would be as solid as the tp's but newer better tech, maybe more long lasting?? But it seems its isn't so. It seems these are not as solid as the 10-15yo tp's. I have the tp's and they are rock solid. Its an industrial clutch that has been made for ages. Only torque limiting feature is how well you sheild it with metal all round. unshielded in air i think it takes 30nm or so  but beef it up it takes much more.
> 
> I've had my tp's apart now several times just for fun and for that hub to even budge a single degree after engagement it means my hub shell has exploded. and it has not exploded yet. I'm only 70kg though. I run a 42 up front and a 11-30 out back. if yoy want to know.
> 
> the tp's are 0,fukn 0% spongy.


I definitely would not describe my Onyx Racing hub as spongy, I thought I made that clear. Not my description, and it was only used by one guy in a very unique situation. I first saw TP hubs many years ago at Interbike when they were new, and I thought they were interesting then but it was Onyx that finally got me to come off of my Chris King lust. I believe that the sprags are a superior design and I am completely satisfied with the performance of my hubs. Sprags are well established technology and are essentially an evolution of the roller clutch. From what I have seen, the Onyx hubs have less freehub drag than the TP hubs, and probably any other hub on the market, they are by far the smoothest and most friction-free hubs I have seen. Mine remain just as smooth and free as when new, and just as solid feeling. It is not easy to describe but it is an interesting sensation, how solid and yet free-spinning these things are. Any wind-up is simply a characteristic of the hubs, and it is truly unnoticeable in normal riding. It is quite possible that it is a positive feature although I think it is mostly a non-issue since I didn't even realize it existed until reading about it and checking for myself on my own bike. I am a big guy and I can push pretty damn hard and these are the best feeling hubs I have ever used.

I would be interested to see your TP hub put to the same wind-up test that Mikesee posted, not to prove anything but just to see if they also have any wind-up, trust me it is possible for a hub to be and feel solid and still have that characteristic. In holding the hubs and playing with them on the stand, you would never even think about any wind-up, the engagement just feels spooky fast and solid. To me it is the same on the trail. It wouldn't change my impression of TP either way, I think they are also a very good product but obviously I am an Onyx fan. But I am curious if it is a characteristic of the general type of hub or the specific type of clutch mechanism, since in the big picture TP and Onyx seem to have more in common than they are different. Although this test might be deceptive with your gear setup, you are geared pretty high and that doesn't give you anything close to the torque multiplication that Mikesee's rig can generate.


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

car bone said:


> ...for that hub to even budge a single degree after engagement it means my hub shell has exploded.


The thing about Onyx' design is that it won't explode - it'll slip to release the torque, then as torque is reapplied, it'll go back about its business unscathed. Granted that would be at torque levels above what a human could generate...


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## Derp (Aug 20, 2013)

That little bit of 'give' from the sprags engaging results in better climbing traction. At least, that's my feel of what's going on. Instead of that normal hard engagement of a regular hub, this instant sprag engagement feels 'damped' (for lack of a better word). This will be more noticeable in the lower, higher torque gears. 

The best description I can think of is a clutch on a dirtbike. If you let the clutch out fast, that would be like a regular hub engagement. If you feather the clutch, that would be like an Onyx hub. Does that makes sense?

If you haven't tried one, do it. It won't make you faster or really even ride better. But for pure feel and enjoyment, it checks all the boxes.


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

Derp said:


> That little bit of 'give' from the sprags engaging results in better climbing traction. At least, that's my feel of what's going on. Instead of that normal hard engagement of a regular hub, this instant sprag engagement feels 'damped' (for lack of a better word). This will be more noticeable in the lower, higher torque gears.
> 
> The best description I can think of is a clutch on a dirtbike. If you let the clutch out fast, that would be like a regular hub engagement. If you feather the clutch, that would be like an Onyx hub. Does that makes sense?
> 
> If you haven't tried one, do it. It won't make you faster or really even ride better. But for pure feel and enjoyment, it checks all the boxes.


 after reading all this I was beginning to wonder if I made the right decision buying a set of onyx hubs ... Guess I will know in the next couple weeks as they are sitting in the box


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

Derp said:


> That little bit of 'give' from the sprags engaging results in better climbing traction. At least, that's my feel of what's going on. Instead of that normal hard engagement of a regular hub, this instant sprag engagement feels 'damped' (for lack of a better word). This will be more noticeable in the lower, higher torque gears.
> 
> The best description I can think of is a clutch on a dirtbike. If you let the clutch out fast, that would be like a regular hub engagement. If you feather the clutch, that would be like an Onyx hub. Does that makes sense?
> 
> If you haven't tried one, do it. It won't make you faster or really even ride better. But for pure feel and enjoyment, it checks all the boxes.


You are right, there should be a better word to describe this characteristic. Damped is better than spongy, but still not quite right. I get your comparison with a dirtbike clutch, although there is substantial energy lost in that type of clutch. Any energy loss in Onyx's application of a sprag clutch would be so tiny as to be unmeasurable and certainly more than made up for by the excellent low-friction performance of hub overall and particularly the freehub in coasting.

I personally can't really notice the effect while riding other than the hubs just plain feel great. But I find your comment on climbing traction to be interesting, my climbing prowess has been improved by my wheelset, which I attributed to the rims and tires but any smoothing of power pulses certainly isn't hurting traction.

I have mentioned this before, but automotive clutch designers go to great effort to design a spring into clutch disks to smooth out power impulses that also conserves rotational energy, maybe Onyx has an extra little feature that while unintentional is beneficial? Bicycles definitely have more uneven power pulses than IC engines, except for maybe Harleys. As an Onyx customer who has drank the Kool-Aide I may have motivation to avoid finding fault with my hubs, but I am generally critical where appropriate and I remain very happy with my purchase. My next bike will definitely be rolling on Onyx Racing hubs, too.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

My buddy and I joke about this thread every time we trade wheels or I have my fat bike out. We now reference this thread every time a tricky section comes up and I might not clear it! "Better spool up that rear hub", or "did that hub just make you overshoot that corner". 

imho lots of drama for something that isn't an issue. ymmv.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

jonshonda said:


> My buddy and I joke about this thread every time we trade wheels or I have my fat bike out. We now reference this thread every time a tricky section comes up and I might not clear it! "Better spool up that rear hub", or "did that hub just make you overshoot that corner".
> 
> imho lots of drama for something that isn't an issue. ymmv.


Did you also know that the new "boost" hubs are not just a new spacing standard? They literally have a built in "boost" feature that gives you extra umph. Only available from Onyx. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

So. Because the sprags are always engaged, backpedaling will cause wheel spin? Is this normal?

It's always bothered me that I can backspin a WTB Laserlight and no wheel spin occurs. Not the case w/ the Onyx hub. The WTB will also out spin the onyx.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Backpedaling causes sprags to slip with very little friction, while staying engaged, that's the thing.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

natron5000 said:


> So. Because the sprags are always engaged, backpedaling will cause wheel spin? Is this normal?
> 
> It's always bothered me that I can backspin a WTB Laserlight and no wheel spin occurs. Not the case w/ the Onyx hub. The WTB will also out spin the onyx.


You are mistaken. Out of the box brand new the Onyx has outspun any other hub I have ever tried. Once they are broke in, it's not even a fair spin off

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)




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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

The hub has about 1,200 miles on it. It would backspin the wheel at 0 miles.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

natron5000 said:


> The hub has about 1,200 miles on it. It would backspin the wheel at 0 miles.


I would consider a little backspin normal an any hub. Some more than others.

You will see more of an effect with lighter rims and tires like you have when compared to a heavy rim and tires.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

jonshonda said:


> My buddy and I joke about this thread every time we trade wheels or I have my fat bike out. We now reference this thread every time a tricky section comes up and I might not clear it! "Better spool up that rear hub", or "did that hub just make you overshoot that corner".
> 
> imho lots of drama for something that isn't an issue. ymmv.


lol
'bout right


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

dustyduke22 said:


> I would consider a little backspin normal an any hub.


My Onyx has so much backspin I can actually ride up hills backwards. I am surprised they don't list this feature on their website.

For serious though...why the f4ck would it bother you enough to take the time to create a video, post it on youtube, and link it here?


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

jonshonda said:


> My Onyx has so much backspin I can actually ride up hills backwards. I am surprised they don't list this feature on their website.
> 
> For serious though...why the f4ck would it bother you enough to take the time to create a video, post it on youtube, and link it here?


Because I may have a bad hub.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

jonshonda said:


> For serious though...why the f4ck would it bother you enough to take the time to create a video, post it on youtube, and link it here?


That's drag... something I thought the lack of was a selling point for these hubs. Isn't the huge weight penalty a trade-off for something good?
I just checked the two bikes I have in my office and neither my Hope SS nor my Ultegra hub do that.


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## HillDancer (Dec 10, 2012)

FYI, the hub has a bearing preload cinch nut. 




Setting preload correctly reduces freehub drag. Too much preload will bind it.


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

HillDancer said:


> FYI, the hub has a bearing preload cinch nut.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah...
3rd post on this thread.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

natron5000 said:


> Yeah...
> 3rd post on this thread.


So you have adjusted the preload on the bearings, and have the correct grease/amount of grease in the bearings and on the sprags, and you have contacted Onyx, and there is no solution?

When coasting in the stand, does it spin longer than your other hubs?


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## HillDancer (Dec 10, 2012)

natron5000 said:


> ...I have the drive side cap threaded on finger tight...





HillDancer said:


> FYI, the hub has a bearing preload cinch nut...





natron5000 said:


> Yeah...
> 3rd post on this thread.


Remove the NDS end cap, insert an awl, rod, or hex key through the holes on the end of the axle, tighten the DS end nut with 19mm socket (thin wall deepset preferred) to 35 lb inch/4Nm, while holding the axle with securing rod. Loosen the pinch bolt in the cinch nut with 2.5mm hex, rotate cinch nut counter clockwise to loosen or clockwise to tighten. If the NDS end cup resists removal in the first step, unscrew the DS nut, lightly tap the axle through & remove, loosen cinch nut & unscrew to push end cap off. Use this opportunity to clean & lightly grease contact surfaces.

After adjusting bearing pre-load on my Onyx hub, I back pedal my crank as performed in the video, the wheel begins to back spin, then rotates forward as sealant re-pools in the tire, all the while the crank reverse rotates merrily along. In my opinion the back spin in the video doesn't look so bad, especially compared to my bushing supported Mavic hubs.


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

I've adjusted the preload and the hub internals are spotless. I have not touched the sprag assembly, but the lube looks clean. I have had onyx look at the hub, they replaced the driver and one of the bearings. They also adjusted the pre-load. I've compared the onyx spin to a dt240s, a wtb laserlight, a novatec d772, and a bont xxx. They all seam to spin better. Each time I pull the end cap off a dark grey oil is eaking out of the bearing seal. I think the tolerances are a bit tight, and causing the bearing to deform once it's pressed into the shell. Maybe the sprag portion of the shell is also a little tight? I love the silent / infinite engagement. But the drag....


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

natron5000, give me a call and I'll see what's going on here. 320-295-7652 and ask for Jim.



natron5000 said:


> I've adjusted the preload and the hub internals are spotless. I have not touched the sprag assembly, but the lube looks clean. I have had onyx look at the hub, they replaced the driver and one of the bearings. They also adjusted the pre-load. I've compared the onyx spin to a dt240s, a wtb laserlight, a novatec d772, and a bont xxx. They all seam to spin better. Each time I pull the end cap off a dark grey oil is eaking out of the bearing seal. I think the tolerances are a bit tight, and causing the bearing to deform once it's pressed into the shell. Maybe the sprag portion of the shell is also a little tight? I love the silent / infinite engagement. But the drag....


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

I was adjusting the pre-load off the bike. (S/b done on the bike - operator error....)
Jim you're a stand up guy w/ an amazing product.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

^Interesting.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

natron5000 said:


> I was adjusting the pre-load off the bike. (S/b done on the bike - operator error....)
> Jim you're a stand up guy w/ an amazing product.


Like how you leave a little play in a cup-and-cone hub when adjusted off the bike to account for compression by the skewer... makes sense. :thumbsup:
Thanks for following up.


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

meltingfeather said:


> Like how you leave a little play in a cup-and-cone hub when adjusted off the bike to account for compression by the skewer... makes sense. :thumbsup:
> Thanks for following up.


Yep. As soon as I cranked down on my axle, I was probably side loading the outer bearings.


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## cunningstunts (Sep 1, 2011)

i can't tell from searching websites. what is the freehub body made of? i'm assuming it's stainless or similar given the high end nature of this hub. mar free?


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

cunningstunts said:


> i can't tell from searching websites. what is the freehub body made of? i'm assuming it's stainless or similar given the high end nature of this hub. mar free?


It is definitely steel, not sure of the grade. The sprags engagement area sees a lot of stress, so it has to be very stout.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

VonFalkenhausen said:


> It is definitely steel, not sure of the grade. The sprags engagement area sees a lot of stress, so it has to be very stout.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Don't know the material composition, do know it is up to the task so far. I utilize XT cassettes to minimize marring on all my bikes. Works like a charm.


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## TheUnknownRider (Oct 2, 2015)

the weight alone should make it obvious ...


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

TheUnknownRider said:


> the weight alone should make it obvious ...


There will be an option for lighter rear hub soon. That's all I know!!


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## VitaliT (Jan 17, 2015)

How soon? 
How light?
Planed to get set for my project.
Hire is my one, and I love it.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

VitaliT said:


> How soon?
> How light?
> Planed to get set for my project.
> Hire is my one, and I love it.


Sea Otter........


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

Got my first ride on my onyx hubs yesterday , be honest didn't notice them as they were quiet and smooth . As a 265 pound Clyde ,I didn't notice any issues what so ever . The build mechanic was so impressed with the onyx he ordered one .


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

blacksheep5150 said:


> Got my first ride on my onyx hubs yesterday , be honest didn't notice them as they were quiet and smooth . As a 265 pound Clyde ,I didn't notice any issues what so ever . The build mechanic was so impressed with the onyx he ordered one .


I am terrified of these thread. Just sent for build up 2 sets of Onyx fat bike hubs (front/rear) and is going to have 2 sets, a 27.5 plus and a 90mm fat bike rims (both Nextie rims). Will cost a fortune, so if the hub does not satisfy, I will be devastated. I am a 250LBS rider too so I was looking at Onyx since my Hope hubs is not taking the load. 
Good to hear that most people is satisfied with these hubs.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am terrified of these thread.


Boo. Did that scare you too? :thumbsup:


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am terrified of these thread.
> 
> Good to hear that most people is satisfied with these hubs.


I am so confident you will love the hubs, that if you don't...you send the wheel sets to me and I will give you $50


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> I am so confident you will love the hubs, that if you don't...you send the wheel sets to me and I will give you $50


That was a good offer, makes me more confident.
Is it any break in time for the rear hub? It is a tiny bit of drag straight from the box? Is the drag disappearing after some use?


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

^Of coarse there will be some drag, there are bearings and seals involved. Don't be "that" guy!


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> ^Of coarse there will be some drag, there are bearings and seals involved. Don't be "that" guy!


No worry just read somewhere about break in. There is a big chance that I will be the happy user of Onyx, and there is time for trouble free hubs for months and years.

Just curious about the front has hub on the rotor side it is a cylinder shape about 20mm deep before the axle cup. Is there a place for collecting dirt?


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## HillDancer (Dec 10, 2012)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> ...a tiny bit of drag straight from the box?...


It is possible. Just in case you are not aware of the procedure, I'll spell it out in writing. Have a 2.5mm hex key/allen wrench ready, then test adjust pre-load when installed. Remove brake caliper, or top loading brake pads, or mount wheel without rotor, so there is no possible contact with pads; chain on cassette with rear derailleur is OK installed. Find the heavy point of the tire/wheel (the side that always rests in the lowest position), facing the non-drive side (the same side as the cinch-nut) rotate the wheel 90 degrees clockwise and let drop. Note the rate of return to the down position. Spin the wheel with light force and note the ease of rotation. Loosen the cinch-nut pinch-bolt, rotate the cinch-nut counter clockwise a half turn, repeat quarter rotation & return rate and spin test. Continue rotating cinch-nut counter-clockwise until stop point, taking mental note of change or no change. Rotate the cinch-nut clockwise until binding is apparent, also taking note of spin behavior & feel to that point. This test will provide feel for full range of adjustment when the wheel is installed and secured with skewer or thru-bolt. Again rotate the cinch-nut counter clockwise in half-turn increments till the wheel rotates freely. Tighten pinch-bolt on the cinch-nut.


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## ReXTless (Feb 23, 2007)

Where the feather-light Onyx hubs at? Sea Otter is at least a few hours old....


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> That was a good offer, makes me more confident.
> Is it any break in time for the rear hub? It is a tiny bit of drag straight from the box? Is the drag disappearing after some use?


My onyx right out of the box spin better then my multiple sets of chris kings ever did ! And i like chris kings .


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Look what I found  It was in German, so I took the liberty of translating it into English for you

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.mtb-news.de/news/2016/04/15/sea-otter-neues-von-den-onyx-rp-naben-ohne/

Looks like the freehubs went on a diet!


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

I talked to the Onyx guys and saw the display. It looks like a slick solution, and not at all what I expected. Thumbs up.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

dustyduke22 said:


> Looks like the freehubs went on a diet!


That is exactly what they needed to do, too many people are fixated on the weight. Not that this will put them in the featherweight class, but it will put them solidly under Stealth and closer to King and the even lighter but inferior pawl driven noisemakers in the over hyped mass wars. At risk of sounding like a bigger jackass than usual, I actually was expecting this. I couldn't think of any other way of getting a big chunk of weight out of the hubs and I didn't see Onyx doing anything to compromise the strength of the design. I am somewhat pleasantly surprised to see the pins to reinforce the freehub splines, I have wondered why something like this was not more common in the past. I suppose it was extra complexity and cost that other manufacturers did not want to take on, Onyx Racing does not seem to shy away from going the extra mile to improve their product. Looking forward to more details on these new options, and wondering if I can resist upgrading my plain old steel freehub...


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## excaliber (May 1, 2012)

This was taken directly from the German article. Does this mean they save 75 grams going to the aluminum?

"The new drive body 45 g and 75 g Shimano designed to save the XD Driver."


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Anybody have insight as to whether these are the same changes that came with the NOBL branded Onyx hubs?


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

Slow Danger said:


> Anybody have insight as to whether these are the same changes that came with the NOBL branded Onyx hubs?


I doubt it yet. They hubs are not released yet. I spoke to them.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

excaliber said:


> This was taken directly from the German article. Does this mean they save 75 grams going to the aluminum?
> 
> "The new drive body 45 g and 75 g Shimano designed to save the XD Driver."


Maybe you could cite the article and perhaps provide a link?

Ok...duh...feeling stupid. I was thinking this was a new reference.


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## excaliber (May 1, 2012)

post #217 above


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

excaliber said:


> post #217 above


The German original article states that the XD Driver is 45 g and the Shimano version is 75 g lighter than before.

Please note these are numbers provided by the manufacturer and not from the author of the article.


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## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

jonshonda said:


> ^Of coarse there will be some drag, there are bearings and seals involved. Don't be "that" guy!


wha huh?

Srsy, if you saw my little vid of the back pedal, it dosen't do that anymore. Zero wheel spin during the backpedal. If you get drag check the bearing preload. Die horse.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Reminds me of the riders that used straightened out staples, just like those pins, to prevent cassette cog digging into soft Al freehub bodies.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

I do not want any light weight, just heavy duty hubs that does not need any special care. I have used a solid steel axle on my hope 177mm rear hub. That weight is more than the weight penalty of the onyx. The free hub body has cracked several times and the bearings are just getting grinded up. The hub bearings is bad after a few rides. I have been using a fortune on new bearings and a lot of time on the Hope hub. Just want something bomb proof like the onyx.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I do not want any light weight, just heavy duty hubs that does not need any special care. I have used a solid steel axle on my hope 177mm rear hub. That weight is more than the weight penalty of the onyx. The free hub body has cracked several times and the bearings are just getting grinded up. The hub bearings is bad after a few rides. I have been using a fortune on new bearings and a lot of time on the Hope hub. Just want something bomb proof like the onyx.


Well your in luck then!! The new lighter hubs will not be happening anytime soon and that's all I know.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

dgw7000 said:


> Well your in luck then!! The new lighter hubs will not be happening anytime soon and that's all I know.


June July. Just the freehub

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> Thanks for the update Mike, that gearing will put you around 1/2 wheel turn per rev. of the cranks, massive amounts of torque going to the hub, not sure there is any other bike application that would resemble this. It definitely is going to be a feel thing, you can see in the video the energy releasing back into the cranks when you lift up, it has to or the hub would still be engaged. I'd say if this was a bigger market for these I'd make a different version that would eliminate this, but I'm not sure I'd ever recoup the costs. I have a few options to discuss with you to reduce this on this particular hub, give me a call when you get a chance.


Wanted to update this thread.

Jim sent a set of slightly oversized sprags with the idea that (when mated with my current driver) there would be less windup, or sponginess, as the sprags stand up and engage.

Took me some time to find the time to do it, but rain all day today let me get caught up around the shop, as well as dive into this.

I used the videos that Jim linked to (post #15 in this thread) and it took me about as long as watching the vids to remove the old sprags and install the new ones, then reassemble the hub.

Won't get a chance to ride it for a bit, but the replacement of the sprags was really easy.

Will chime back in once more after getting a chance to ride it.


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## VitaliT (Jan 17, 2015)

Question for Mr. Jim G.
I got question on another forum from one potential onyxrp customer, so I should ask it hire 
Is it possible to convert rear hub from QR to thru axle? 
Without sending hub from Europe to US?
Would conversion kits (end cups) available on you web shop?


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

Just checking in , I have about 60 miles on my onyx and so far they are great . My Chris kings (which I liked ) never spun as easy or free...


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## jimw (Aug 10, 2004)

Newbie to this thread... Been Onyx-curious for a long time but never seen them in person till Sea Otter. These hubs are awesome, will definitely be my next hubs. Re: the lighter hub shell, here's an excerpt from a post I made over in the Norcal forum on one of the Sea Otter threads:



> Spent a long while talking to the guy at Onyx. I've been curious about these hubs for a long time, and they're hard to find in person. My next set of hubs will definitely be these. These things are awesome. Truly instant engagement. The clutch mechanism is genius, simple, and bomber. Almost nonexistent drag. And silent! Never understood why so many people seem to lust over loud hubs. One thing they just came out with is an aluminum driver that drops around 75g over the previous steel version (should be available around June). This is significant as the weight of these hubs have been one of the few drawbacks. They also have a great method for preventing cogs from chewing up the aluminum splines. There's a groove in front of each spline, and a tiny steel rod fits in there. The cogs push against that instead of directly on the aluminum. Kinda similar to how American Classic solves the same issue with their hubs.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

VitaliT said:


> Question for Mr. Jim G.
> I got question on another forum from one potential onyxrp customer, so I should ask it hire
> Is it possible to convert rear hub from QR to thru axle?
> Without sending hub from Europe to US?
> Would conversion kits (end cups) available on you web shop?


I don't want to speak for Jim, but converting the hub is pretty easy. End caps are available through them or any shop that has an account.


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## VitaliT (Jan 17, 2015)

dustyduke22 Thanks
Btw just ordered another set of hubs this time for 29er. 
They are addictive


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

Bikerumor Sea Otter Post
Basically a summary of what we already know, plus a couple of idiotic comments because internet. For $100 I will probably upgrade my hub. And by probably I mean definitely, because I can't resist stuff like this.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

VitaliT: It is quite simple to convert the axles yourself. Send an email to [email protected] get get the parts you need and videos are available on our youtube channel link here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCznYJx56StXT7ZGuGFujPnA


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

This is on all our iso 6-bolt hubs, allows space for an allen key access to cinch bolt.



Rumblefish2010 said:


> No worry just read somewhere about break in. There is a big chance that I will be the happy user of Onyx, and there is time for trouble free hubs for months and years.
> 
> Just curious about the front has hub on the rotor side it is a cylinder shape about 20mm deep before the axle cup. Is there a place for collecting dirt?


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## VitaliT (Jan 17, 2015)

HI Jim.
Thanks for such great service and tech support, there is not so much company’s what have such nice customer support. 

I am asked those things because I am started tread about you product in another bike forum where not everyone speak English so I’m just helping other gays to get needed information. So they can make decision what to bay.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

VitaliT said:


> just helping other gays


Hey I'm straight!


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Hey I'm straight!


In that case ignore that PM I just sent you! I will find a different riding partner.


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## VitaliT (Jan 17, 2015)

Waiting for rims, awesome work quality.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

mikesee said:


> Will chime back in once more after getting a chance to ride it.


What say yee?


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

How does my LBS in Canada get a set of Onyx hubs for me?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

PUNKY said:


> How does my LBS in Canada get a set of Onyx hubs for me?


Ask them


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## Derp (Aug 20, 2013)

edit


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

Cleared2land said:


> Ask them


Who?



Derp said:


> You can order Nobl hubs which are almost exactly the same.


Thought about that, but no 20mm CL front hub makes myself a sad Panda


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## handsomehwang (Jun 22, 2015)

Anyone know are the Nobl hubs similar to the updated lighter Onyx hubs that are coming out soon?


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

handsomehwang said:


> Anyone know are the Nobl hubs similar to the updated lighter Onyx hubs that are coming out soon?


NOBL hubs are already lighter than Onyx since the did extra machining on the hub shell. They will have options for the lighter freehub ad well

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


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## Keithyk (Feb 3, 2016)

A check on onyx website now, they have revamped the page and its more user friendly now. Apart from that, the lighter version of alloy freehub is available under the build up option with additional 25 dollars. But the weight reduction is very minimal at around 45g for XD driver. Does it worth for the upgrade? And it's an alloy, durability might not be as good as steel. In my opinion, steel is still the best option.

By the way, for those who had used Onyx, how soon is the bearing needs to be changed? Does it as tough as Chris King's bearing? I am currently using I9, had already changed my bearing twice in a year


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I get my Onyx hub on Tuesday. I'm very excited. I'm sure it will get a mention on my site.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Wow. PVD choosing to buy an Onyx is saying something.



Keithyk said:


> And it's an alloy, durability might not be as good as steel. In my opinion, steel is still the best option.


I've even been thinking to have a (SS freewheel, 6 bolt disc) hub shell machined out of mild steel. Powder coat it and forget about it.

Waiting for 6xxx alloy hub shells for Onyx..


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Keithyk said:


> A check on onyx website now, they have revamped the page and its more user friendly now. Apart from that, the lighter version of alloy freehub is available under the build up option with additional 25 dollars. But the weight reduction is very minimal at around 45g for XD driver. Does it worth for the upgrade? And it's an alloy, durability might not be as good as steel. In my opinion, steel is still the best option.
> 
> By the way, for those who had used Onyx, how soon is the bearing needs to be changed? Does it as tough as Chris King's bearing? I am currently using I9, had already changed my bearing twice in a year
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Onyx fat bike 177x12 and 150x15 hubs I have been using on mye Foes Mutz have been absolutely flawless and is running even more smooth now than when it was new. The bearings is ceramic and is smooth as butter. Chris King have angular contact bearings that is possible to service with new grease. The Onyx use sealed bearings that needs to be replaced. I have been using CK also for my FS wheelset, but I will say that the Onyx is my favourite with instant lock up. And the Onyx seems to need less service and is not affected by cold climate either.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Sealed bearings can and should be serviced...unless you just enjoy replacement.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Cleared2land said:


> Sealed bearings can and should be serviced...unless you just enjoy replacement.


Okay, of course it is possible. But you will not have a sealed bearing any more.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Most of the time it's possible to open them at the static lip without damaging it. But quite often they are too far gone already and need replacement anyway.

As to whether they should be serviced, it depends on how disposable you consider cartridge bearings to be. We have cup and cone design that should be serviced indeed, because it's nonstandard parts. Cartridge bearings can then be seen as a departure from this, in that one can afford to just ride them to death and replace.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Okay, of course it is possible. But you will not have a sealed bearing any more.


A sealed bearing is sealed to prevent contaminates, dirt and such from entering the bearing. It's not to prevent servicing. The seal is not something that once opened, is like a paper seal, that once torn, no longer is usable. Seals on bearings are easily removed and reinstalled after servicing a bearing with no damage to the seal or bearing.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Cleared2land said:


> A sealed bearing is sealed to prevent contaminates, dirt and such from entering the bearing. It's not to prevent servicing. The seal is not something that once opened, is like a paper seal, that once torn, no longer is usable. Seals on bearings are easily removed and reinstalled after servicing a bearing with no damage to the seal or bearing.


So any good advice for what grease to use?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Grease, like your choice of tires, is somewhat subjective. There are many high quality lubricants depending on what your desired objective is. If you ride in a wet environment, then a high quality water-proof marine type grease might be preferred. For dry environments and ultimate efficiency, I like a little thinner grease. There's a trade-off in more efficient greases that offer a lower friction coefficient with a possibility of increased maintenance intervals where a heavier marine type grease offer excellent protection and longer maintenance intervals, but a higher friction coefficient.

I have two greases (lubricants) that I like. Motorex 2000 and Buzzy's Slick Honey.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Okay, of course it is possible. But you will not have a sealed bearing any more.


Huh? The seals don't just curl up and die. You press them back into place and they work just like new.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## newoldskool (Oct 8, 2005)

Cleared2land said:


> A sealed bearing is sealed to prevent contaminates, dirt and such from entering the bearing. It's not to prevent servicing. The seal is not something that once opened, is like a paper seal, that once torn, no longer is usable. Seals on bearings are easily removed and reinstalled after servicing a bearing with no damage to the seal or bearing.


What is the best way to pop the seals off?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

newoldskool said:


> What is the best way to pop the seals off?


I use a razor blade. Get it under the seal edge and lever it off. I've looked at the seals under a large magnifying glass and was not able to discern any damage.


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## newoldskool (Oct 8, 2005)

Thx


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

*First, these are suspension pivot bearings, not hub bearings, but the bearing, the seal and the concept is identical.

A common sealed bearing:
*








*I use a thin, spoon like tool to carefully slip under the seal. An Exacto knife works well or a razor blade. Anything very thin will work. Many use a small pick, but using one frequently does cause seal damage by leaving a notch in the rubber seal. Carefully work around the seal to gently lift it from the bearing and remove it.
*




















*Most seals have some sort of brass or metal reinforcement to the rubber or silicone seal. If you bend this metal backing, you can carefully bend it back flat, but if careful in removal, you shouldn't have a problem. Check the bearings for contamination, dirt or signs of rust that prolly means water has found it way in.*















*Clean the bearings (if necessary) and add more clean grease. DO NOT PACK A WHEEL HUB THIS FULL OF GREASE!

NOTE: These are Pivot bearings and can be completely packed full of grease because they simply pivot back and forth. For wheel hub bearings, you want to add fresh grease, but NOT PACKED FULL. They need to be able to fully rotate unobstructed.*















*Reinstall seal and make sure it has been fully seated into the retainer notch around the circumference of the inner and outer bearing races.*


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Pictures are great. 
Can you pack hub bearings with light grease like slick honey? Otherwise, how much grease do you put in? Smear it in and then mush it around and then scoop what u can out?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Yes, Buzzy's Slick Honey is one of my favorites. It's considerably lighter than Park 1000 Polylube or Phil Wood water proof grease. These other, thicker lubricants are excellent greases, but being thicker, they have a higher friction coefficient. Slick Honey is lighter and thinner, but still a high quality lubricant that spins more efficiently because of a lower friction coefficient. 

Perhaps the trade-off is a possible increased service interval on the lighter lubricants. I'm very preventative maintenance oriented, so this is a moot point for me.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I failed to answer your question of how much.

Just enough to ensure an appropriate amount. I guess it's something you have to do yourself and make some assumptions on what seems to be the correct amount. I force the grease into the bearings with my thumb and rotate the bearing around and add some more until it appears to be mechanically sufficient. 

I don't really ever remove any excess grease, I just manage what has been applied. I realize that my definition prolly isn't all that clear, but you'll figure it out.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Whats a good gauge for determining too much versus too little slick honey? Mostly by feel? Maybe smear some on and spin the hub then scrape the rest out?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

All good info. I'd use a pick if I was going to get into re-lubing them. Just personally they seem to last about forever and if one dies, I just replace it with an SKF. However I live in TX and don't submerge the bearings in water these days.

The only time I've needed to replace cartridge bearings with any frequency was when I had a Stan's 3.30 rear hub. They were dying from being undersized for the application, not from lack of lube.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

jacksonlui said:


> Whats a good gauge for determining too much versus too little slick honey? Mostly by feel? Maybe smear some on and spin the hub then scrape the rest out?


Slick Honey is pretty thin, so I'm not sure you could really 'over-pack' it. Don't get too wrapped around the axle on quantity. No, I would not go so far as to 'scrape the rest out'.

Like I stated a few posts above, "I guess it's something you have to do yourself and make some assumptions on what seems to be the correct amount."


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Huh? The seals don't just curl up and die. You press them back into place and they work just like new.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


There is a catch when you service your Onyx hub bearings you will have a hard time to clean, since it should not get any sort of cleaning solution in to the sprag clutches. If you need to knock out the bearings first it will the compromised. My experience with cleaning bearings will take a lot of cleaning liquid. You could use mineral liquor that is recommended for the sprag clutch cleaning, but I think the old grease from bearings should not get in contact with the clutch, and it will for sure float liquid all over and probably into the clutches. Wrong type of grase and teflon kind of solutions make the mechanism to not work properly, it will slip.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I frequently do not have to perform any cleaning of the bearings beyond wiping a clean rag across the bearings to remove excess old grease. Rotate the bearing and wipe whatever can be removed. If the bearing has not become contaminated, then simply add fresh grease and seal back up. Frequently there is no need to use solvents to remove old grease.

The necessity is particularly true if regular and ongoing hub servicing is being carried out.


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## senowitc (Sep 29, 2014)

*Nox Composites*

In addition to Nobl, I also noticed Nox Composites offers Onyx hubs as an option for their factory builds. They have a decent 29+ option, the Kitsuma. Really good warranty too--2 yrs. including rock strikes, and then a crash replacement discount after that.

I have no personal experience with either manufacturer, however.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> Thanks for the update Mike, that gearing will put you around 1/2 wheel turn per rev. of the cranks, massive amounts of torque going to the hub, not sure there is any other bike application that would resemble this. It definitely is going to be a feel thing, you can see in the video the energy releasing back into the cranks when you lift up, it has to or the hub would still be engaged. I'd say if this was a bigger market for these I'd make a different version that would eliminate this, but I'm not sure I'd ever recoup the costs. I have a few options to discuss with you to reduce this on this particular hub, give me a call when you get a chance.


I wanted to circle back to this, to share that Jim @ Onyx has solved the "sponginess" concern I had. He can chime in to explain _how_, I just wanted to make sure that people understand that he _did_.

And he actually did it ~8 or 9 months ago, I've just been too committed to other projects to ride the bike with the new hub until this past week.

BTW, I originally noticed this feel when riding an ~80# pig of a fatbike, with the attendant massive amounts of traction, using very low (26 x 44t) gearing, and traversing some very steep country. So to say, not what most people are doing with their Onyx hubs.

Link to the bike here and the trip report here.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

mikesee said:


> I wanted to circle back to this, to share that Jim @ Onyx has solved the "sponginess" concern I had. He can chime in to explain _how_, I just wanted to make sure that people understand that he _did_.
> 
> And he actually did it ~8 or 9 months ago, I've just been too committed to other projects to ride the bike with the new hub until this past week.
> 
> ...


So could you share with us what Onyx did with the hub to solve the issue you had?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> So could you share with us what Onyx did with the hub to solve the issue you had?


I'd be interested in this as well. Especially if it was a running change to onyx and when?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> So could you share with us what Onyx did with the hub to solve the issue you had?


When we discussed this last spring, Jim had proposed 2 (maybe even 3?) different solutions. Because he sent the replacement hub back to me in ~September I can't remember which fix he used, thus I can't share detail.

I'm sure he didn't do something just for me -- it'd have to be something that he could apply to a wide range of hubs/riders for it to be worth his while.


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## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

If anyone happens to know, what are the differences between the single sprag and dual sprag versions? I understand this may be the entirely wrong site to be asking on since it's not really road oriented.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Dual sprag versions have two sprag assemblies transmitting torque in parallel between freehub body and hub shell.


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## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

I figured that, but is there a difference in weight, how much, or might there be a way to describe how much torque the single could take before slipping vs the dual, assuming that is the case.

Edit: Just found how to answer one of my questions, 10.9 oz vs 12.5 oz.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

No idea about weight, sorry. My thinking is that the dual ones are intended to make the hub torsionally stiffer, and maybe to prevent sprag/race fatigue failures in high torque applications.


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm strongly considering ordering a set of these hubs. The exchange rate to CDN has me singing le blues. Not really liking the UPS only shipping options to Canada, but such is life. Would've enjoyed a USPS option...

Anyway, black ano 32H, CL, steel free hub, 148 x 20mm upfront. Pretty plain jane build. No funky colours. No etching. 
The only thing I though of was a gold axle but I sorta scraped that idea.


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## cunningstunts (Sep 1, 2011)

if you do the math Punky, i'm pretty sure the best way to do Onyx in Canada is Nobl. by a good margin.


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

^Thanks. Looking into it more it appears the best way is to get Onyx thru LB USA


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## DoLB (Jun 29, 2011)

Anybody know if the front 135 fat hub will work on a Jones 29 truss fork? Does it have the needed spacing?

Also does the rear hub come with a spacer for 10 speed? Not keen on moving on to 11 speed just yet.


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## rusty904 (Apr 25, 2008)

This is a bit of an odd question but I'm considering the Nobl hubs with Onyx internals for my next wheelset. 

Coming from I-9's, I like the idea of a silent running hub but my only concern is "sneaking up" on other people, hikers, slower riders, animals, etc. Has anyone had an issue like this? I always thought my I-9's buzzsaw sound was a great warning for people but I had a high speed collision with some other riders coming the wrong way up a blind, high-speed corner so my faith has been shaken a bit.


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## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

I don't think it's an odd question. I've had this problem where I think my bike is making all sorts of noise that isn't a bell and lots of people say they didn't hear it. Happens all the time. I think noise that isn't a bell can't be trusted to alert others. Then there are those who ignore bells too...


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

One reason i got the timberbell. Works great. Annoying but you get use to it and several times around a bend on a DH I've found hikers waiting on the side for me to pass. Pretty cool. Ive gotten it to alert mountain lions originally.

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## Keithyk (Feb 3, 2016)

Not an issue actually, I was also coming from using the i9 hub. The trail rolling sound would have alerted the hikers/bikers. But even though there's buzzing sound, if a rider is paying attention to his ride, he wouldn't have notice as well from my experience. 
Anyway, I am using the NOBL hub as well. Like the shape!


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## rusty904 (Apr 25, 2008)

Keithyk said:


> Not an issue actually, I was also coming from using the i9 hub. The trail rolling sound would have alerted the hikers/bikers. But even though there's buzzing sound, if a rider is paying attention to his ride, he wouldn't have notice as well from my experience.
> Anyway, I am using the NOBL hub as well. Like the shape!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cool to hear from someone coming off I9. Which style of engagement do you prefer between the two hubs? I haven't had the chance to ride a sprag clutch hub.


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## Keithyk (Feb 3, 2016)

On the climb I feel minimal difference, but quite a lot of difference in free wheel. I actually gaining speed


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

If quietness is a concern, there's always this:


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

rusty904 said:


> Coming from I-9's, I like the idea of a silent running hub but my only concern is "sneaking up" on other people, hikers, slower riders, animals, etc. Has anyone had an issue like this? I always thought my I-9's buzzsaw sound was a great warning for people but I had a high speed collision with some other riders coming the wrong way up a blind, high-speed corner so my faith has been shaken a bit.


I have always thought the "noisy hub warning system" was a ridiculous justification for loud hubs. Sure my Onyx hubs are silent but even the loudest hubs are not going to reliably warn another riding coming from the other side of a blind corner, and most hikers and slow riders hear the bike without needing extra noise. I have a Spur Cycle bell for the blind corners and less aware trail users when I need to make my presence known. It is not the cheapest bell, but you get what you pay for, much like with the Onyx hubs. And for Spur Cycle owners, the little Lindarets riser mount 3d printed gizmo works well for improving cockpit position options.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I haven't had any close calls with other trail users since getting my new wheels with Onyx hubs. I do feel like I'm moving pretty silently though. If I'm moving quickly through an area without good lines of sight I'll turn on my bell (Mountain Bike Bells | TIMBER - Mountain Bike Bells by TIMBER) but otherwise I will lock it out.

In addition to my wheels with Onyx hubs, I also have a set of Industry 9 wheels and a set of SRAM wheels. I honestly haven't felt any difference in the engagement between any of them but having a silent hub has been magical.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I recently rode Onyx hubs, they do have a slight bit of sponginess when standing on the pedals quickly and I thought it was awesome, it was like just the tiniest amount of damping.

That said, I ordered 321 hubs because of weight and instant engagement isn't that much of a priority to me.

PS. I have a set of NOX Kitsuma 29er boost I9 wheels for sale for $900 + shipping and PP fees if anyone is interested. Great condition.


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## grizfish (Oct 24, 2011)

Onyx hubs are the best, IMO.

So quiet that anything else, like a bent brake rotor or weeds wrapped around the axle are quickly noticed. 

Got them with my wheel build from Light Bicycle, another quality product.


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## geraldooka (Jul 3, 2012)

Nat said:


> I haven't had any close calls with other trail users since getting my new wheels with Onyx hubs. I do feel like I'm moving pretty silently though. If I'm moving quickly through an area without good lines of sight I'll turn on my bell (Mountain Bike Bells | TIMBER - Mountain Bike Bells by TIMBER) but otherwise I will lock it out.
> 
> In addition to my wheels with Onyx hubs, I also have a set of Industry 9 wheels and a set of SRAM wheels. I honestly haven't felt any difference in the engagement between any of them but having a silent hub has been magical.


Re Engagement, really? I thought that was the whole point of the Onyx hubs?

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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I don't think Nat meant that engagement was equal between Onyx and I9; of course it's not. I think he was talking about Stealth and Onyx.

In terms of noise, saying your noisy hubs are somehow an early warning device is absolutely ridiculous. About the only trail user who could hear a noisy hub over their own bike is a hiker and you're gonna say "hey" as soon as you see them.

I've had four sets of Onyx hubs, still riding three sets, great hubs, long lasting, no maintenance issues, wouldn't trade them for any other hub. 

I have high poe DT350's on my XC bike, they're good hubs, but every time I ride that bike the difference in engagement leaves me wanting.

Durable, instant engagement, high quality, supportive service, solid warranty. 

Other than price, what else do you want?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Hey, great tip on the bell, I ordered a bunch of scratch and dents for $10 each!



Nat said:


> I haven't had any close calls with other trail users since getting my new wheels with Onyx hubs. I do feel like I'm moving pretty silently though. If I'm moving quickly through an area without good lines of sight I'll turn on my bell (Mountain Bike Bells | TIMBER


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Nurse Ben said:


> I don't think Nat meant that engagement was equal between Onyx and I9; of course it's not. I think he was talking about Stealth and Onyx.


He has I9s. His point is that the instant engagement is not noticeable over the 100(+) POE of I9. 


Nurse Ben said:


> Other than price, what else do you want?


Reasonable weight. Seriously, those things are boat anchors. It's kind of crazy how heavy they are. I understand why from an engineering perspective, because the sprang clutch is a VERY high stress design, but it's shocking how much steel it takes to make them reliable.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

geraldooka said:


> Re Engagement, really? I thought that was the whole point of the Onyx hubs?


For me the selling point of Onyx hubs is the silent freewheel. Coasting quietly through the woods is an amazing experience.

I honestly can't tell the difference in engagement between my three sets of wheels (I9 with Stan's rims, Onyx with NOBL carbon rims, and SRAM Roam 40). Maybe they're all high end enough to be similar? Maybe it's just not something that makes a difference to me? I don't know.

I also couldn't detect the weight gain with the Onyx hub. In-hand my new Onyx wheels felt the same as the SRAM 40's they replaced even though on paper they're supposed to be 300g heavier. On the trail my new wheels were noticeably better accelerating.

My I9s are on my singlespeed with tubed tires so it's harder to compare but I don't detect any difference in engagement.


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## rusty904 (Apr 25, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> I don't think Nat meant that engagement was equal between Onyx and I9; of course it's not. I think he was talking about Stealth and Onyx.
> 
> In terms of noise, saying your noisy hubs are somehow an early warning device is absolutely ridiculous. About the only trail user who could hear a noisy hub over their own bike is a hiker and you're gonna say "hey" as soon as you see them.
> 
> ...


Well, the weight could be more competitive with other high end hubs.

I wouldn't call the idea of an early warning device ridiculous. I've had at least a dozen hikers tell me they could here my rear hub buzzing around blind switchbacks. Slower riders with headphones have yielded to me citing the hub's sound as well. Definitely not as effective as a bell but it has done the trick on plenty of occasions.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I think there's literally no means left to make the hubs lighter at their price point. Exotic materials could be used perhaps, but the cost would be aerospace-like, and reliability could suffer as well.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Nat said:


> I haven't had any close calls with other trail users since getting my new wheels with Onyx hubs. I do feel like I'm moving pretty silently though. If I'm moving quickly through an area without good lines of sight I'll turn on my bell (Mountain Bike Bells | TIMBER - Mountain Bike Bells by TIMBER) but otherwise I will lock it out.


Update to previous post:

The Timber bell is quite audible and piercing, sounding like an old land line telephone from the olden days or the Old Phone ringtone on your cell. For some reason when I'd switch the bell on, trail users up ahead wouldn't really look when I approached. I know they can hear me, but they often don't look. I wonder if they're thinking, "Someone is getting a phone call out here -- who's the a-hole who turned up his phone ringer that loud?" It's actually a bit too loud and obnoxious for me to ride with it on for very long.

I'm trying out this dog bell instead, which sounds more like a jingle bell that the Salvation Army person would use in front of the supermarket, or that people put on their dogs' collars. Maybe other trail users will associate this different pitch with, "Someone's dog is approaching, or maybe it's Santa -- I'm going to look." This tone of this bell is one that isn't very obnoxious, and I don't mind doing an entire descent with it on, but I can silence it when I have good lines of sight.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015RIUAJU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Nat said:


> Maybe other trail users will associate this different pitch with, "Someone's dog is approaching, or maybe it's Santa -- I'm going to look."


Funny the trade offs that come up. When I ride, trail users think, "here comes a mountain bike, better step off the trail."


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## matmattmatthew (Feb 17, 2007)

Please forgive me if this question was already asked, I didn't read through the entire thread. 

Those of your running Onyx hubs, is the weight penalty worth the silence/drag reduction? I'll be making the jump to a boost frame soon so I need a new wheelset. I've been running I-9 for over 3 years and had E.13 hubs before that, so I'm ready for quiet(of silent hubs). I'm on the fence between DT 240s/350s vs the Onyx. 

Thanks!


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## ScottieM8 (Apr 3, 2015)

matmattmatthew said:


> Please forgive me if this question was already asked, I didn't read through the entire thread.
> 
> Those of your running Onyx hubs, is the weight penalty worth the silence/drag reduction? I'll be making the jump to a boost frame soon so I need a new wheelset. I've been running I-9 for over 3 years and had E.13 hubs before that, so I'm ready for quiet(of silent hubs). I'm on the fence between DT 240s/350s vs the Onyx.
> 
> Thanks!


Why not get a Boostinator for your I9 hub? Their flanges are wider than most brands. If you have the straight pull hub that uses the alu spokes, the difference of the flanges for boost and non are about 2mm apart, which is negligible.

Love my I9s btw. The buzz does a good job at announcing you're on the trail for hikers to be alert. I have a bell too but don't have to use it very often.


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## matmattmatthew (Feb 17, 2007)

ScottieM8 said:


> Why not get a Boostinator for your I9 hub? Their flanges are wider than most brands. If you have the straight pull hub that uses the alu spokes, the difference of the flanges for boost and non are about 2mm apart, which is negligible.
> 
> Love my I9s btw. The buzz does a good job at announcing you're on the trail for hikers to be alert. I have a bell too but don't have to use it very often.


They are the Torch hubs, I know I can "convert" the hubs to boost but I'd rather just have a new wheelset that has true boost hubs.


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

matmattmatthew said:


> Please forgive me if this question was already asked, I didn't read through the entire thread.
> 
> Those of your running Onyx hubs, is the weight penalty worth the silence/drag reduction? I'll be making the jump to a boost frame soon so I need a new wheelset. I've been running I-9 for over 3 years and had E.13 hubs before that, so I'm ready for quiet(of silent hubs). I'm on the fence between DT 240s/350s vs the Onyx.
> 
> Thanks!


I have 240s on two or three bikes currently, 350s on another, Pro2s on another and plan on ordering ONYX hubs for my new frame once I figure out my fork situation.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

matmattmatthew said:


> Those of your running Onyx hubs, is the weight penalty worth the silence/drag reduction?


Since I started riding Onyx hubs, I haven't thought about the weight once, other than to feel silly for almost not getting them because of it. The benefits are definitely worth it for me, running two sets now.


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

VonFalkenhausen said:


> Since I started riding Onyx hubs, I haven't thought about the weight once, other than to feel silly for almost not getting them because of it. The benefits are definitely worth it for me, running two sets now.


What he said . I have onyx on both my mtb . I have ck on my crossbike . Prefer onyx

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## matmattmatthew (Feb 17, 2007)

VonFalkenhausen said:


> Since I started riding Onyx hubs, I haven't thought about the weight once, other than to feel silly for almost not getting them because of it. The benefits are definitely worth it for me, running two sets now.


Nice! That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Onyx it is then!


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

matmattmatthew said:


> Nice! That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Onyx it is then!


Good plan! What a lot of people fail to realize is tha the weight (~100 gms.) is in the center of the rotating mass so it has almost zero effect in spin up or braking speed. A 100 gms in tire weight would be much more detrimental.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

blacksheep5150 said:


> What he said . I have onyx on both my mtb . I have ck on my crossbike . Prefer onyx
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why did you prefer the onyx over ck? Other than the lack of sound?

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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

jacksonlui said:


> Why did you prefer the onyx over ck? Other than the lack of sound?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Doesnt take a special ck tool to take them apart to service them ...spin freer

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## newman17 (Jul 30, 2013)

matmattmatthew said:


> Those of your running Onyx hubs, is the weight penalty worth the silence/drag reduction?


I have about 900 miles here on a set of Onyx. I personally don't think they're worth the weight. It is quite noticeable to me and I miss the snappy feel of other hubs rather than the rubber band of Onyx. I love the way my Onyx looks (the anti-freeze green is stellar!), the silence, the low maintenance, and the responsiveness of the company, but honestly, I wish I'd done a different route.

My next set will be Project321's new hubs (now that they're not using I9's design/internals) as they now have a quiet option, reasonable/normal weight, & engagement of 1.7°, among other features. I hope this helps.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

The P321 hubs look great using the magnetic pawls for less drag but too bad they don't offer a centerlock option

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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

They are working on it!! My best hubs now Project 321 216 points of engagement and quiet and now EZO bearings from Japan, Onyx do have less drag and great German bearings, they spin forever!!


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Any dates announced on Centerlock availability? Would be good to put on my radar.

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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

jacksonlui said:


> Any dates announced on Centerlock availability? Would be good to put on my radar.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


No Jake did not say, they're having a hard time just keeping up with production with the new design and they just moved into a new facility. I also told Jake we need a new lime green color !


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Ok
I'll keep waiting. The dt350 with pawl upgrade is still the best bang for the buck for me.

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## Aaron1017 (Jun 1, 2010)

newman17 said:


> I have about 900 miles here on a set of Onyx. I personally don't think they're worth the weight. It is quite noticeable to me and I miss the snappy feel of other hubs rather than the rubber band of Onyx. I love the way my Onyx looks (the anti-freeze green is stellar!), the silence, the low maintenance, and the responsiveness of the company, but honestly, I wish I'd done a different route.
> 
> My next set will be Project321's new hubs (now that they're not using I9's design/internals) as they now have a quiet option, reasonable/normal weight, & engagement of 1.7°, among other features. I hope this helps.


No way you actually feel a difference in weight if you got a Onyx Hub with aluminium freehub body. Its all in your head.

I do like the every so slightly soft engagement of the Onyx over a pawl/spring hub. No clunk when you start pedaling from coasting. Feels much more refined.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Aaron1017 said:


> No way you actually feel a difference in weight if you got a Onyx Hub with aluminium freehub body. Its all in your head.
> 
> I do like the every so slightly soft engagement of the Onyx over a pawl/spring hub. No clunk when you start pedaling from coasting. Feels much more refined.


Me be thinkin' it's all in his head too.

"clunk"? You shouldn't be getting a clunk, but the higher the POE's, the smoother the engagement.


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## newman17 (Jul 30, 2013)

Aaron1017 said:


> No way you actually feel a difference in weight if you got a Onyx Hub with aluminium freehub body. Its all in your head.


FWIW, I don't have the aluminum driver (~48g saved from what I read) because I really don't want to spend another $125 after what I've already spent on these hubs. Anyway, I built a notably lighter version a Bronson than the one I demo'd that sold me on the bike. Despite me having carbon rims (and Sapim CX-Rays), RF NextSL cranks, etc, my Bronson has a very different pedaling feel than the one I demo'd that had just DT 350's and aluminum rims. It's definitely the hubs. It's the main difference for sure, because my bike is higher spec and lighter in every other way. Not saying the hubs suck, just that the weight is noticeable when you start pedaling. Once rolling, it's awesome, and definitely less drag, but there is noticeable weight to get moving. Everyone has different levels of sensitivity, and if it's no big deal to you, then truly is great, because the hub is definitely nice in other aspects.

I also rode 16 different mountain bikes this weekend over 3 days (Outerbike Crested Butte), all different brands, wheel sizes, travel, etc. I noted the hub differences, and was reminded how much I hate loud hubs (looking at you i9!), but none had that sponge-y/soft engagement that Onyx has, and I wish Onyx felt and differently. To each their own. For me, I wish I had spent less coin on something else. Then again, there weren't many (any?) silent options at the time, and that's been really nice for sure.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I have a set of the 321s and they are solid. Even though I have the silent version they still have a light tapping noise.

I rode the Onyx hubs briefly and LOVED that soft engagement point. I feel that's just an advantage all around. That said I won't add weight to my bikes if there is another option that works as well, and in this case, there is.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

newman17 said:


> Not saying the hubs suck, just that the weight is noticeable when you start pedaling. Once rolling, it's awesome, and definitely less drag, but there is noticeable weight to get moving.


Nahhhhh.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

newman17 said:


> Despite me having carbon rims (and Sapim CX-Rays), RF NextSL cranks, etc, my Bronson has a very different pedaling feel than the one I demo'd that had just DT 350's and aluminum rims. It's definitely the hubs. It's the main difference for sure, because my bike is higher spec and lighter in every other way. Not saying the hubs suck, just that the weight is noticeable when you start pedaling. Once rolling, it's awesome, and definitely less drag, but there is noticeable weight to get moving. Everyone has different levels of sensitivity, and if it's no big deal to you, then truly is great, because the hub is definitely nice in other aspects.


So you are saying that your carbon rims with Onyx hubs accelerated slower than aluminum rims with DT 350 hubs? Unless your carbon hoops are heavier than the aluminum laced to the 350s, I don't see how this is possible. Lighter rim with heavier hub will accelerate faster than heavy rim with a light hub.


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## newman17 (Jul 30, 2013)

compengr said:


> So you are saying that your carbon rims with Onyx hubs accelerated slower than aluminum rims with DT 350 hubs? Unless your carbon hoops are heavier than the aluminum laced to the 350s, I don't see how this is possible. Lighter rim with heavier hub will accelerate faster than heavy rim with a light hub.


I understand the theory, just sharing what I've experienced. My rims are 410g each, the Arc 27s in the demo bike were 475g (claimed). Perhaps it's more the engagement style that one feels than it is weight, but that's exactly my personal issue with it, that it *feels* slower out of the gate and on slow speed stuff, despite my bike weighing a little less than the demo. It just doesn't have the snappy take-off I get on certain other setups. I'd just encourage the potential buyer who asked about this issue to try the hubs if possible and make sure he/she is cool with how it feels. It's just a personal preference.


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

newman17 said:


> I It's just a personal preference.


Yes sir kinda like bikes , different horses for different courses . I like both sets of onyx hubs i have

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Heavy hubs does not increase what is called moment of inertia, the force required to spin up those wheels.

It does however effect overall bike weight and even the reactiveness of the suspension. Both however are much smaller effects than weight placed at the outside of the wheel either by tire or wheel weight.


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## grizfish (Oct 24, 2011)

The painter who did my motorcycle told me:

"Your choices are quick, good, and cheap. Pick any two."

I like my Onyx.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> Heavy hubs does not increase what is called moment of inertia, the force required to spin up those wheels.
> 
> It does however effect overall bike weight and even the reactiveness of the suspension. Both however are much smaller effects than weight placed at the outside of the wheel either by tire or wheel weight.


Nice explaination....For some reason, a large percentage of people just don't get it. They'll complain about a 100g extra hub weight, yet they'll throw on double casing tires at over 1000gms and not think a thing about it.

I am a huge fan of the Onyx rear hub.


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## autosmith (Jan 16, 2012)

I love the feel of my onyx. I didn't notice the difference aside from noise and coasting speed felt better. But after putting a lot of miles on them and switching to dt350 with 54t engagement I notice a huge difference. I've changed the way I pedal without realizing it. Love the onyx and will gladly accept the weight penalty. 


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Whatever floats your boat.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> Heavy hubs does not increase what is called moment of inertia, the force required to spin up those wheels.
> 
> It does however effect overall bike weight and even the reactiveness of the suspension. Both however are much smaller effects than weight placed at the outside of the wheel either by tire or wheel weight.


Every pedal stroke is an acceleration and you are constantly changing direction on a bike. Granted, the weight penalty for a hub that weighs a bit more should be pretty small, but this adds up overall and can make a heavy bike (even one one that has light wheels) a bear to ride all day or on longer harder rides, due to constantly accelerating that entire mass. Wheels are under even more constant acceleration, making the effect there greater, but constantly yanking a heavier bike back and forth also adds up.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a full on weight weenie! Added up it all matters imo.
It's just at the hub, it's the same as adding weight to the lower frame mostly. Meaning that 1/4# isn't really something most can feel. 
But I'm a big believer in shaving a little weight here and there and it all adds up to something significant.

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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

A heavier hub is extra unsprung weight which will negative impact the suspension performance. I dont know how much, maybe its negligible. It may only be 5% , not sure if thats even noticeable. However, 100g is a 100g and that will be something on long days and long climbs. I dont need to coast faster or be silent so im good with the dt350 54t. However im intrigued with the onyx. Would probably go for the project 321 with magnetic pawls when they make the centerlock option.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Just had LB lace up some AM928 carbon hoops with Onyx hubs for my hardtail. Took her out for the maiden voyage today and these hubs are insane. 
Granted, I'm coming off some bottom barrel OEM DT hubs with probably 8 POE, but the Onyx is amazing. Sprinting out of corners with zero delay and no drivetrain clunks that is typical of lower POE hubs. I've only had one ride, but I'm loving it so far. I threw some lighter tires on there to make up some of the weight gain. 
I'll take a couple hundred grams for the instant engagement and silence!


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

farfromovin said:


> Just had LB lace up some AM928 carbon hoops with Onyx hubs for my hardtail. Took her out for the maiden voyage today and these hubs are insane.
> Granted, I'm coming off some bottom barrel OEM DT hubs with probably 8 POE, but the Onyx is amazing. Sprinting out of corners with zero delay and no drivetrain clunks that is typical of lower POE hubs. I've only had one ride, but I'm loving it so far. I threw some lighter tires on there to make up some of the weight gain.
> I'll take a couple hundred grams for the instant engagement and silence!




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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Circling back to this one last time. The updated hub that Jim sent over a year ago has continued to function perfectly. No apparent sponginess, even when the bike is heavily loaded. 

I'm so satisfied with it I just ordered another 217mm Onyx hub for this same fatbike, so that I can have 3 wheelsets in total: 26 x 5.25" for low pressure/soft snow use, 27.5 x 4.5 studded for mixed winter conditions, and 29 x 3.25" for covering lots of ground with moderate to heavy loads way off the beaten path.

Great company, great product, incredible customer service.


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## matmattmatthew (Feb 17, 2007)

Good to hear all the praise about Onyx Hubs, just got my wheelset of Enve M60 laced to Onyx and I can't wait to take them for a ride when my new frame shows up. 2 Questions, 
-When I spin the freehub with my hand it feels like it's dry, is there a recommended grease/lube/oil for the sprags?

-My hubs are centerlock and I'll be running the 2018 pike, does the torque-cap axle for the front hub work with centerlock?


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## yeti187 (Nov 3, 2005)

I finally have a couple rides on my new rear wheel with an Onyx hub and the squishy engagement feels horrible. It very noticeable and I'm not getting used to it. It feels like the power stroke of the cranks from the 1-5 position is very soft and unresponsive. This soft feeling comes twice with every pedal stroke while engaged even on flat sections of trail that I'm not applying much torque to the cranks. I've contacted Onyx and shown them the linked video and they say it's normal. Prior to sending the video and just talking with them on the phone they said 0 - 1 degrees of movement is normal for the freehub to rotate relative to the hub shell for the sprags to stand up and lock. The cassette is an XT 11-46 and appears to move about a full tooth from light load to full load so that is 7.8 degrees of movement (360 / 46). There's potentially some loss with the hub shell twist from a locked brake and some wrapping effect on the spokes that I'm using as a reference but I think that those would have minuscule effects on this test.






Are other onyx hub users have this much lag in engagement? It's hard to believe people raving about these hubs have this lag or that this is within the design intentions of the hub. I think what I'm experiencing is abnormal and is a defective hub, despite onyx reviewing the video and saying it's normal.

I don't create enough torque with the pedals at 12 and 6 to maintain that fully engaged/ sprags fully locked position so I cycle through the sprags standing up and releasing (causing squishy engagement feel) twice with every pedal stroke as the left and right cranks are on the down stroke.

Onyx said this is normal for their hubs and that their fix for Mikesee's custom 217mm wide hub was their E-bike clutch that doubles the size of the clutch to compensate for the higher loads. The video is torque applied from a seated position so I'm weary if the double the clutch size and same tolerance stack-up issues would still have this lag.

If this amount of movement is not what others are experiencing, I'd like to try to get this hub to a normal operating state with much less lag in engagement. If this amount of movement is normal per other riders and Onyx can't improve the issue, I'll have to go back to pawl/ ratchet hubs available in a 177 wide flavor.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

"Hub shell twist"?

In your youtube video you call it "engagement lag", but that's not accurate. The hub is always engaged.

Looks like you have a 26/46 bailout gear? That's part of the problem.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Lol. The controversy continues.

Is it really squishy if it doesn't make a squish sound? :skep:

How about we dispense with the squishy description and line up as follows -
1 - Those who believe the engagement is "instant".
2 - Those who believe "instant" is a bit of an exaggeration.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

That video makes it pretty clear though.

How does the front chainring size matter for the purposes of that demo mike?


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

92gli said:


> That video makes it pretty clear though.
> 
> How does the front chainring size matter for the purposes of that demo mike?


Smaller chainring=more torque

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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

92gli said:


> That video makes it pretty clear though.


Makes what pretty clear?

The hub is always engaged. Sitting on the bike with brakes locked is a good way to show what's happening, but is a far cry from how it actually feels on the trail.

Not to say it isn't noticeable, just that it doesn't feel anywhere near the way the video makes it look.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

mikesee said:


> "Hub shell twist"?
> 
> In your youtube video you call it "engagement lag", but that's not accurate. The hub is always engaged.
> 
> Looks like you have a 26/46 bailout gear? That's part of the problem.


I think he is referring to the "test conditions". He is holding the non-drive side of the hub fixed with the brake and applying torque at the drive side. There is going to be some (miniscule) amount of twist.

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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

It is not engagement lag, the engagement is as close to instant as you can get. What it is would be better described as wind up, the more torque applied, the more the mechanism twists as the sprags stand up further. It is like a mild spring effect, I have never liked the description of squishy or spongy because it implies a mechanical inefficiency and that is not the case. Whatever power you put into the hub that goes into winding up the sprag clutch is returned as the load decreases and the sprags unwind. It is exaggerated in the video by both the extreme gearing and the loading against a locked brake, that visible rotation is not all in the hub sprag clutch. In a more typical application, the effect is slight and not noticeable other than a nice lack of harshness in the application of power, the hubs have an excellent feel in 100% of my experience, but I am not running a beefy rig capable of riding up vertical surfaces. Some people may be more sensitive than me or prefer the mechanical latch feel of a pawl or lockring, but I find the effect to be a positive feature.


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## yeti187 (Nov 3, 2005)

The hub may always be engaged and have instant engagement but the lag between downward force being applied to the pedals and it getting translated to the wheels responding is significant. It'd would be similar to the drag tire windup described earlier in the thread but instead of constant torque from a motor the torque is cyclical with each down stroke of the pedal so it'd be closer to the drag tire winding up, grabbing, moving the car forward, the tire unwinds then is wound up again as torque is once again translated into forward motion.

Are other people experiencing this degree of windup as the down stroke of the pedals transfers?

For clarification, I posted more videos in a smaller gear of 26 front and 24 in the back. This is on a 29+ wheel. Equivalent gearing on a 27.5 inch tall rear wheel would be approximately 30 tooth front and 25 tooth rear.
















No high speed camera so can't accurately show the acceleration issues.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Christ. The gearing has nothing to do with it. The sprag is either open or closed, so to speak (I don't know the exact term). The only thing the smaller front ring does is make the distance the crank arm moves greater. But if he had a 32t it would still look similar.

And if there's windup then it's not instant. Pretty cut and dry IMO.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

92gli said:


> The sprag is either open or closed, so to speak (I don't know the exact term).


I have always thought of the sprag as engaged or disengaged. I heard one refer to them as deployed. Whatever works for you.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Looks to me like something is wrong with it.


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## danoalb (Dec 19, 2005)

I have a rear Onyx on one of my bikes (soon to be all) I would call the engagement a soft engagement and LOVE it. The best way I can describe it is like I never stopped pedaling when I reengage.👍👍👌


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

yeti187 said:


> The hub may always be engaged and have instant engagement but the lag between downward force being applied to the pedals and it getting translated to the wheels responding is significant. It'd would be similar to the drag tire windup described earlier in the thread but instead of constant torque from a motor the torque is cyclical with each down stroke of the pedal so it'd be closer to the drag tire winding up, grabbing, moving the car forward, the tire unwinds then is wound up again as torque is once again translated into forward motion.
> 
> Are other people experiencing this degree of windup as the down stroke of the pedals transfers?


I don't notice the windup at all, the hubs feel smooth and responsive to me. The first time someone mentioned it I had to try it on my own bike before I realized how it is noticeable if you do the crank against the brakes test. Maybe some people are extra sensitive to these things, maybe you pedal in a very peaky way, maybe there is something wrong with your hub. I will say that the only mechanical failure I have seen reported with an Onyx hub was a crack in the outer ring that contains the sprags and bears their force from engagement. Apparently the hub was still functional but I can imagine it had to change the engagement feel, I suppose this could be a possibility. In my 2 plus years riding Onyx hubs, I have had zero complaints and the engagement and feel have been flawless since day 1.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

92gli said:


> Christ. The gearing has nothing to do with it. The sprag is either open or closed, so to speak (I don't know the exact term). The only thing the smaller front ring does is make the distance the crank arm moves greater. But if he had a 32t it would still look similar.
> 
> And if there's windup then it's not instant. Pretty cut and dry IMO.


The gearing multiplies the torque, the windup is torque dependent. The engagement is practically instant, the windup is only a factor under heavy torque impulses. Windup has nothing to do with speed of engagement, it is a post-engagement phenomena that is usually subtle but in this particular case is a problem for yeti187.


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## Aaron1017 (Jun 1, 2010)

yeti187 said:


> The hub may always be engaged and have instant engagement but the lag between downward force being applied to the pedals and it getting translated to the wheels responding is significant. It'd would be similar to the drag tire windup described earlier in the thread but instead of constant torque from a motor the torque is cyclical with each down stroke of the pedal so it'd be closer to the drag tire winding up, grabbing, moving the car forward, the tire unwinds then is wound up again as torque is once again translated into forward motion.
> 
> Are other people experiencing this degree of windup as the down stroke of the pedals transfers?
> 
> ...


Looks like some flex in your frame, tires, etc. Bet you get the same result with a regular pawl type hub. Try it and report back. 
That being set, there is a little softness as the sprags load up.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

^LOL @ people saying that video shows something wrong with the onyx engagement. All you can tell is that the chainring moves and the cassette moves too.

I want that silent. Gonna get me a rear hub.


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## matmattmatthew (Feb 17, 2007)

I have 6 rides on my Onyx hubs and haven't noticed any "soft" engagement and certainly haven't noticed the extra weight. What I have noticed is the absolutely transcendent experience of riding with silent hubs and almost zero drag. I keep finding myself having to brake when riding with groups because I catch up to whoever is in front of me, I'm an Onyx convert and these will most likely be the hubs I ride on every single one of my bikes.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Transcendent is a good word to describe the experience. It’d be hard for me to go back to a loud hub.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

I’ve got about 1 month and a couple hundred miles on my Onyx setup. I did have a shot XD driver bearing upon receipt, but after swapping that out it’s been bliss. Really love the silence and engagement!


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

The hub is lit.

The silence is a bit eerie on an evening slow ride. Although all my rides seem to be solo..


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## rmanalan (Aug 19, 2017)

I've had my Onyx for about a month now. In the past week, I noticed a lot of drag and backspin when freewheeling. I finally took it apart tonight only to discover a cracked xd driver axle (don't know the proper term for this).

Gonna call Onyx in the morning. Should be covered under warranty. Anyone else have this issue? Or had to deal with a warranty claim?









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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

rmanalan said:


> I noticed a lot of drag and backspin when freewheeling.


What does "backspin when freewheeling" mean?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Nat said:


> What does "backspin when freewheeling" mean?


Means when he backpedals in the stand, the rear wheel will spin backwards. Hubs with a significant amount of drag do this.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Hm I thought the spindle is pressed into the aluminum freehub body a-la Shimano HT2 DS crank.

The failure is caused by too much weight savings, I think. The spline curvature at the point of crack origination is the result of two opposing considerations: reducing stress concentration calls for a shallower shape and reducing axial load on bearings calls for a steeper one. (By too much weight savings I mean this spline joint existing at all, in an attempt to reduce the volume of steel in the hub.)


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

Nat said:


> Transcendent is a good word to describe the experience. It'd be hard for me to go back to a loud hub.


Right , i feel the same way

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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

meltingfeather said:


> He has I9s. His point is that the instant engagement is not noticeable over the 100(+) POE of I9.
> 
> Reasonable weight. Seriously, those things are boat anchors. It's kind of crazy how heavy they are. I understand why from an engineering perspective, because the sprang clutch is a VERY high stress design, but it's shocking how much steel it takes to make them reliable.


70 grams... That the weight difference between my i9's and Onyx.

70 grams is one glazed donut or a half bagel.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

irishpitbull said:


> 70 grams... That the weight difference between my i9's and Onyx.
> 
> 70 grams is one glazed donut or a half bagel.
> 
> View attachment 1165431


You may want to do your math again. Why I don't care about the extra weight, it is misleading to say 70 grams. It's closer to 200 or more depending on which hub.

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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

When I get around to buying my Onyx rear hub I'll have it in the heaviest configuration, and powder coated...


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

J. Random Psycho said:


> When I get around to buying my Onyx rear hub I'll have it in the heaviest configuration, and powder coated...


With the optional internal lead weight upgrade

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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Varaxis said:


> Means when he backpedals in the stand, the rear wheel will spin backwards. Hubs with a significant amount of drag do this.


Got it, thanks.


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## carbine_275 (Nov 15, 2015)

dustyduke22 said:


> With the optional internal lead weight upgrade


That's how I always get mine ;-)


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## Leo_camargos (Oct 18, 2013)

*Not that frictionless at all*



Nurse Ben said:


> It's not entirely about durability and silent running, the real performamce benefits are in the immediate engagement and frictionless coasting.
> 
> Once you ride these hubs, there's no going back, ratchet hubs will feel annoyingly slow.
> 
> I'm starting my third Onyx wheel build this fall, just need to pick a color. I'm thinking silver with red streaks, or maybe red with gold streaks, or ...


I have the Onyx rear hub, but still did not test it. I noticed spinning tha freehub by hand and comparing to a SRAM X0 rear hub is that the Onyx hub is indeed very silent but surprisingly it seems to have way more !coasting friction" than the X0 rear hub. Let´s see if the friction is lower after it is broken in.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Leo_camargos said:


> I have the Onyx rear hub, but still did not test it. I noticed spinning tha freehub by hand and comparing to a SRAM X0 rear hub is that the Onyx hub is indeed very silent but surprisingly it seems to have way more !coasting friction" than the X0 rear hub. Let´s see if the friction is lower after it is broken in.


Let it break in my man. That's when the magic happens

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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

That's what she said. 

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## Baltazar (Jan 30, 2004)

dustyduke22 said:


> Let it break in my man. That's when the magic happens
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


exactly, had the same experience. thought something was wrong, asked onyx about it, and they said i hade to break it in, and 3 weeks later (didn't ride to much) it was spinning like no other hub i have ever seen.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

FYI, there is a great video on NOBL's Facebook page posted today, about 1 hour ago, comparing Industry 9, Project 321, Hope Pro4, DT180, and NOBL/Onyx hub sounds.


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## Aaron1017 (Jun 1, 2010)

rmanalan said:


> I've had my Onyx for about a month now. In the past week, I noticed a lot of drag and backspin when freewheeling. I finally took it apart tonight only to discover a cracked xd driver axle (don't know the proper term for this).
> 
> Gonna call Onyx in the morning. Should be covered under warranty. Anyone else have this issue? Or had to deal with a warranty claim?


Mine cracked too. They sent a replacement 2-day air. No questions asked. 
Amazing that a tiny crack and diameter change causes that much drag!
Replacement has been fine for almost a year.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Aaron1017, is yours the aluminum freehub type too?


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

so the onyx turns out to be "spongey", i guess sprags wasnt really a winning concept after all. who would have guessed? I wonder why no one went the true precision route?? except me that is. These have 0,0000090% sponge, the lockup is as dead and stiff as adolf hitler.
But yeah surprise surprise we all have to go looking for people that invents the fukn wheel over and over and over again promising gold at the end of the unicorn rainbow??????

what can i say? 

you deserved it

not saying the tp's are the best hubs in the world but at least it does what it says on the box.. you know that sh1t? actually working as supposed?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

car bone said:


> you deserved it


In a forum filling up with douchebags, you continually find ways to elevate yourself to the top of the heap. Strong work.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

mikesee said:


> In a forum filling up with douchebags, you continually find ways to elevate yourself to the top of the heap. Strong work.


I reside at the very top of the douche pyramid yes. problem?

i worked hard to get there.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

mikesee said:


> In a forum filling up with douchebags, you continually find ways to elevate yourself to the top of the heap. Strong work.


I can tell you one thing though. regarding "sponge", with a TP, there is nothing, simply nothing. and if there were, the whole fukn hub would disintegrate in most likely 3-4 big pieces by design. go figure.

I'm just saying and have always been saying "dont go over the river for water" but still everybody just needs needs to just fukn do that, wtf is up with that ****? doesnt anybody learn jack **** from other people anymore?? I guess so.

so yeah you did deserve it.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

What are you talking about???


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

Nat said:


> What are you talking about???


this



yeti187 said:


> The hub may always be engaged and have instant engagement but the lag between downward force being applied to the pedals and it getting translated to the wheels responding is significant. It'd would be similar to the drag tire windup described earlier in the thread but instead of constant torque from a motor the torque is cyclical with each down stroke of the pedal so it'd be closer to the drag tire winding up, grabbing, moving the car forward, the tire unwinds then is wound up again as torque is once again translated into forward motion.
> 
> Are other people experiencing this degree of windup as the down stroke of the pedals transfers?
> 
> ...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

car bone said:


> this


That's the original post, but I can't figure out what you were trying to say in your replies.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Any updates on the new hubs? Those are some pretty aggressive weight targets.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I won't be in the market for new wheels again for years but I rode Onyx once and LOVED the feel but the weight weenie in me couldn't take the weight penalty.

If they fix the weight they will be the only hubs for me.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I have an engineer friend testing various fat hubs in the cold, including onyx. While they have a great drive mech, according to him, there is little support for the axle by the bearings, other more traditional designs like hope and DT do a much better job here, not sure if this applies outside of the fat hubs, but it was interesting and could be a source of this cracking problem. He was indicating the heavier/more aggressive the rider, the worse this would be.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Jayem said:


> I have an engineer friend testing various fat hubs in the cold, including onyx. While they have a great drive mech, according to him, there is little support for the axle by the bearings, other more traditional designs like hope and DT do a much better job here, not sure if this applies outside of the fat hubs, but it was interesting and could be a source of this cracking problem. He was indicating the heavier/more aggressive the rider, the worse this would be.


Can you elaborate on that? General construction doesn't seem to be all that different between Onyx and others (other than the sprag). By that I mean, they all have similar number of bearing supporting roughly the same part of the hub. To what specifically is he referring?


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Wow. 320g is compelling. I would rip out my dt 350 to try these out but i would need a centerlock version 

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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

compengr said:


> Can you elaborate on that? General construction doesn't seem to be all that different between Onyx and others (other than the sprag). By that I mean, they all have similar number of bearing supporting roughly the same part of the hub. To what specifically is he referring?


Why, Onyx are very different from mainstream cartridge bearing hubs in how rider weight is carried.

In a typical rear hub, the drive side load path goes from hub shell to the axle through one bearing. Then from DS bearing's inner ring to DS dropout through the unsupported length of axle that passes through the freehub body (the bearings in freehub body do not carry rider weight).

In Onyx, the DS load goes from shell to axle through two bearings, freehub/driver body, and one more bearing. That last bearing is located as close to the DS dropout as possible (and as it's done on NDS in nearly every hub there is), which is very desirable in rear hub design, because axles can then be made thinner, leaving more room for whatever freehub internals there are.

So, as far as the axle is concerned, the shell/driver assembly in Onyx works like a single part, applying loads very close to dropouts.

There are other niche hubs that carry rider weight in similar ways. Most notably CK and TP.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

compengr said:


> Can you elaborate on that? General construction doesn't seem to be all that different between Onyx and others (other than the sprag). By that I mean, they all have similar number of bearing supporting roughly the same part of the hub. To what specifically is he referring?


I will eventually, will take a while to get back, remember, these are the fat versions.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Jayem said:


> I have an engineer friend testing various fat hubs in the cold, including onyx. While they have a great drive mech, according to him, there is little support for the axle by the bearings, other more traditional designs like hope and DT do a much better job here, not sure if this applies outside of the fat hubs, but it was interesting and could be a source of this cracking problem. He was indicating the heavier/more aggressive the rider, the worse this would be.


I don't understand his claims.

Take a look at these pics. I count 3 bearings just in this picture inside the main hub shell thay support the axle, one being in the middle of the hub! This is not counting any freehub bearings either. I can imagine that the fatty hub is the same

Contrast that with what most hubs resemble in pic #2










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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Maybe he's a custodial engineer or train engineer? J/K.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Nat said:


> Maybe he's a custodial engineer or train engineer? J/K.


My personal favorite was when I heard someone say they were a Sandwich engineer. Ended up, they worked at Subway.

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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

I can see how the wider (fat bike) hubs have more room to move bearings around, providing less support in some (possibly critical) areas. Looking forward to seeing more info regarding this comparison.

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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

The two bearings closest to the sprag clutch do not touch the axle. They separate hub shell from the driver body.

(This is not to say the axle lacks support in the middle. It doesn't need to be supported there because it can be made stiff enough to keep maximum deflection in the low tenths of a mm there, even for fatbike OLDs.)


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

J. Random Psycho said:


> The two bearings closest to the sprag clutch do not touch the axle. They separate hub shell from the driver body.


Really? Why use bearings then? I must be missing something...

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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

compengr said:


> Really? Why use bearings then? I must be missing something...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


They provide for the rotation of hub shell and driver body around the same axis. They transfer rider weight from hub shell to axle bearings while keeping the clutch isolated from it.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

J. Random Psycho said:


> They provide for the rotation of hub shell and driver body around the same axis. They transfer rider weight from hub shell to axle bearings while keeping the clutch isolated from it.


Had to watch the service videos on their site to see how it works . Because of the sprag, the drive shell extends deeper into the hub, much more than a typical ratchet design, leaving less (possible) support for the axle. I get it now.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

compengr said:


> Had to watch the service videos on their site to see how it works . Because of the sprag, the drive shell extends deeper into the hub, much more than a typical ratchet design, leaving less (possible) support for the axle. I get it now.


Why, the support for the axle is *better* when the two axle bearings are closer to its ends. See the formula for the deflection of a beam with supported ends (dropouts) and two loads (bearings). It benefits (results in smaller values) from multiplying the squared beam length by as small a dimension as possible, and that dimension is the distance between support and nearest load.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Why, the support for the axle is *better* when the two axle bearings are closer to its ends. See the formula for the deflection of a beam with supported ends (dropouts) and two loads (bearings). It benefits (results in smaller values) from multiplying the squared beam length by as small a dimension as possible, and that dimension is the distance between support and nearest load.


When folks start talking formulas, all most people hear is " bla bla bla".

Not saying you are not intelligent, just saying if you are trying to make a point it's probably going to be missed.

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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Why, the support for the axle is *better* when the two axle bearings are closer to its ends. See the formula for the deflection of a beam with supported ends (dropouts) and two loads (bearings). It benefits (results in smaller values) from multiplying the squared beam length by as small a dimension as possible, and that dimension is the distance between support and nearest load.


What about the loads from the drive shell?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

compengr said:


> What about the loads from the drive shell?


The way the axle sees rider's weight, hub shell and drive shell are one part that applies two loads to the axle, in the same direction, and very close to its ends.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Mmmmm, Subways...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Jayem said:


> I will eventually, will take a while to get back, remember, these are the fat versions.


I'm in another state right now, so it'll take me some time to get back and get the full story. I was speaking to the prelim information I discussed, so no details, but this sounds similar to what we talked about.


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

Onyx needs to get a BOOST 20 front hub out to market soon.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

PUNKY said:


> Onyx needs to get a BOOST 20 front hub out to market soon.


What's wrong with their 20mm hubs?

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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

PUNKY said:


> Onyx needs to get a BOOST 20 front hub out to market soon.


We have the 20mm BOOST setup completed in October, for both Centerlock and ISO 6-bolt! Both are available now.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> We have the 20mm BOOST setup completed in October, for both Centerlock and ISO 6-bolt! Both are available now.


Jim, is the "low weight" version of the rear hub still on hold till next year?


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> We have the 20mm BOOST setup completed in October, for both Centerlock and ISO 6-bolt! Both are available now.


Jim, any updates on the new lightweight hubs?

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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

We are very confident that we will release these in the next few months. They have passed our mechanical testing and are currently in the field for some real-world abuse. So far they are performing flawlessly. We will make sure to do an announcement when we have a firm date. Thanks for the question!


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> We are very confident that we will release these in the next few months. They have passed our mechanical testing and are currently in the field for some real-world abuse. So far they are performing flawlessly. We will make sure to do an announcement when we have a firm date. Thanks for the question!


Looking forward to seeing more on these! Weight wasn't really an issue (for me), but I wont say no to a lighter component as long as the functionality and reliability don't take a hit 

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The weight is a large issue for me. I've ridden Onyx hubs and frankly love the way they work, but I'm not willing to add weight to my bicycle when other components essentially do the same job for less weight. I hope they are successfully able to get the weight competitive. Only problem is I already bought some new Wheels and went with 321 hubs.

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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> The weight is a large issue for me.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


I'm curious what tires you will be running? Hopefully not Minions.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

321 hubs are nice. Pricey and no centerlock boost hub for their new G2 model.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Simplemind said:


> I'm curious what tires you will be running? Hopefully not Minions.


You are welcome to your opinion.

I've tried SO many tires, for me, Minions just offer the best compromise between traction. weight, rolling resistance, cost, and wear. They actually make me go faster. IMO, and I've searched, any other tires have me riding slower.

Hubs, I like the silence, engagement, heck I even really like the sprag wind up that is obvious in an Onyx hub, to me it's like traction control, etc. But faster they will not make me, nor will I clear anything that I couldn't clear before.

So the Onyx, while very cool, has obvious equivalents that offer great engagement and low rolling resistance, but much lower weight. That's why I currently have 321s.

If the weight was about the same, I'd prefer the Onyx however.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Have you tried dt swiss with the 54poe upgrade and made a comparison? Ive always wondered if the extra poe offered better performance on techy climbs. The dt 350 is such bang for the buck in terms of price and weight. The 322, torch, onyx are sp bling, its tough to resist. Makes my dt swiss very mundane.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

Hey Jim, any "projected" target rear hub weight in ISO and CL?

My inner weight weenie wants to know!


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

verrocchio100 said:


> Hey Jim, any "projected" target rear hub weight in ISO and CL?
> 
> My inner weight weenie wants to know!


I do have some photos I took a while back, these are the Boost versions. We are still trimming here and there, but these weights will probably be pretty close. The updated front hubs will approximately 160g for the ISO 6-bolt boost version.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

I like the silver color!

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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Careful, you may start "as machined" trend...

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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

OMG!

Jim, those look delicious!!

Any idea if these will roll out (pun intended) before or after SOC?

And will there be a lighter weight front hub for SuperMax Lefty?

Thx!


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

We are close, but probably won't happen. The clutch mechanism requires certain design criteria that other hubs don't need. It is a trade off for the benefits it provides. However, we did get the front down to about 160g, so that's a bit lighter than some of our competition and will bring the total set weight a little closer. I don't ever expect to be the lightest, not in the cards, just trying to get it as best as possible while still keeping the reliability up.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

We just shipped out some pre-production test wheels this week to our best riders. We'll see what they come back with. Trying to get all the little details wrapped up before we start making them in our production runs. Nothing worse then building a bunch and then having to change something later because you got ahead of yourself. We want and need to produce the best we are capable of, lots of great competition out there ya know!

Nothing has changed on the Lefty hubs, there is not a lot of demand for them and we have to keep to a certain design due to the fork mount, so this really limits the options to reduce weight without looking like a replica.


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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

Awesome Jim, thanks to you and your team for pushing the limits!


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Jayem said:


> I have an engineer friend testing various fat hubs in the cold, including onyx. While they have a great drive mech, according to him, there is little support for the axle by the bearings, other more traditional designs like hope and DT do a much better job here, not sure if this applies outside of the fat hubs, but it was interesting and could be a source of this cracking problem. He was indicating the heavier/more aggressive the rider, the worse this would be.


I cannot disagree more. To speak about Hope, that I was using on my fatbikes, that was exactly the issue, to much load on the axle, and free wheel hub. Hope has to small bearings and have not enough strenght to hold my my weight (265). After replacing all bearings in the Hope hub, the bearings was more or less grinding after 3-4 rides. The bearings in the free wheel hub get so much load that it after a while blows up. The balls are grinding all metal and then tears it apart. Especially the one bearing closest to hub shell.

With the Onyx, I have experienced a few years with trouble free riding. Almost without servicing these hubs either. I think it has to do with the exactly that the axle is having big and solid bearings, and three in total, one at each side and one in the middle. The axle is from steel, and the the sprag cluthing are also taking up the energy like it should, locking around the axle. Not like a pawl/rachet system placed on one side of the hub getting twisted on a small surface on the axle.

The issue with the cracked hub shells comes from aluminum design that have had some issues, I suppose. I have not heard about any fawlt on the steel versions?


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

We have had a few of these axles crack. He is referring to the drive side end of the axle where the drive side nut is tightened on the end of the axle. We haven't had many and we have linked that problem to the nut being or becoming loose. A drop of blue Loctite on the threads has fixes this problem. When that nut wiggles loose or isn't tighten properly, it rocks ever so slightly back and forth, fatiguing the metal and eventually will crack it. Now remember the through bolt is still there supporting and this really doesn't cause anything noticeable unless you take off the wheel, then you see theres a loose piece. We use a 6902 bearing on all our drivers, 28mm od and 15mm id. Others use either a 28mm od x 17mm id or a 6802 which is 24mm x 15mm, or some sort of variant of this. What does this mean? From our testing the load on the bearings is significantly higher with these smaller bearings, causing them to either fail sooner and/or roll less efficiently. The larger balls in the 6902 seem to solve this, however there is a trade-off, they are a little heavier and we have to thread the portion just on the outside (15mm od portion of axle) in order to get our drive cap nut on. Our new lighter hubs address this differently by using press-on end caps like others while still using the 6902 bearing, so no threads in this area, but this too comes with a trade-off, the new hubs will not have the bearing side-load adjustability.


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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

I, for one, have little to no issues with my hubs that do not have preload adjustment (i9).

Agreed, more support with larger bearings is a sound trade off for a little increase in unsprung weight.

With regards to the weight pix, what are the hub profiles to the according weight?

Are the flange spacings, flange diameter and flange thickness the same as the current production hubs?

Or are the flanges beefed up in thickness for spoke support then the edges scalloped for weight reduction?

Are the spoke holes angled and champfered to relieve spoke contact to flange. I do dislike having the flanges marred by the spokes when I get them rebuilt.

Thx Jim!


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

The preload adjustment is just a fine tuning feature to gain the smallest advantage out of your hubs.

They are all boost spacing 148/12 hubs in the photos. Just the Centerlock/ISO/HG/XD combinations of each. 

Flanges are changed a bit to accommodate the weight reducing scalping. We do this for 1. weight and 2. reduction in flange height while still allowing the spokes to be installed easily. 
The flange angle did change a little on this design as well to help deal with the reduction in material, however the spoke hole diameters and such are all the same or very close to current models, so close I don't anticipate spoke length changes to/from same models. We do have hub-specific spoke calculators built into our website (which is about to be updated again). The flanges are angled to reduce spoke contact as well. Thanks for the questions.


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## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

Will the current design continue to be sold alongside the new design, or will the current design eventually be phased out?


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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks Jim, interesting to see on the Centerlock hubs the non drive flange is smaller in diameter and weigh a bit less than the ISO models, why so?

Thx!


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

The current design will stay as is and still be offered with all the extras as standard. The new hub design will be a complete model line in itself. We are still deciding on a few things to reduce price on this new line as well. 1. Steel bearings 2. No upgrade program on this line 3. limit colors on end-caps etc. 4. no custom engraving

These are things we'll have to iron out before production launch, but this hub line will be targeted more towards the mainstream with concerns over weight and cost.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

The flanges on the iso 6-bolt design need to be taller in order to get the spokes in. On the drive side we are limited to how small this height can be due to the clutch drive system. The disc side on the center lock design has a much smaller diameter so we can reduce the flange height quite a bit. This make all our center lock hubs lighter. In addition, the XD version are lighter then their HG counterparts due to the SRAM design vs the Shimano.

On the center lock DS flange we reduce the height to save weight and can do so because the NDS flange is smaller yet. On the ISO flanges this is not the case. If we used the same DS flange height as the center lock design we'd have a case where the DS flange is smaller diameter than the NDS, this would amplify the spoke tension imbalance already on wheels, so we keep them the same height to minimize it.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Really enjoying the detailed answers you're giving everyone Jim. 👍


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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

Awesome info Jim, thanks!


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> We have the 20mm BOOST setup completed in October, for both Centerlock and ISO 6-bolt! Both are available now.


Good to hear. I emailed you guys late 2017 to get a BOOST 20 CL front hub to match my rear hub and was told they weren't going to be making them anytime soon.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> The current design will stay as is and still be offered with all the extras as standard.


This is great news! I've been worrying the WW, non-adjustable design was going to take over.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> You are welcome to your opinion.
> 
> I've tried SO many tires, for me, Minions just offer the best compromise between traction. weight, rolling resistance, cost, and wear. They actually make me go faster. IMO, and I've searched, any other tires have me riding slower.
> 
> If the weight was about the same, I'd prefer the Onyx however.


I just find it interesting that so many people focus on weight with little regard to where that weight is located. As you know rolling weight, especially weight with the largest moment arm, think centrifugal force, is by far the most critical. If you're swinging that 1000-1200 gm hunk of rubber at the end of that 350mm spoke, that's a whole lot more penalty than 200gms of weight that is essentially not rolling weight located at the center of rotation. The only place I see that extra 200gms of weight causing an issue is possibly with the suspension. 
I run an I9 Torch on another wheelset and I do not detect a difference in weight. What I do notice is the noise and the engagement, both in favor of the Onyx.


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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

Speaking for myself Jim, I pricing isn't the issue for me; I will gladly pay for the performance! Top end offerings are well within the current range that is offered, IMO.

One vote from me, leave option for ceramic bearing upgrade available.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

"Good to hear. I emailed you guys late 2017 to get a BOOST 20 CL front hub to match my rear hub and was told they weren’t going to be making them anytime soon."


Things change quickly around here!


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

verrocchio100 said:


> Speaking for myself Jim, I pricing isn't the issue for me; I will gladly pay for the performance! Top end offerings are well within the current range that is offered, IMO.
> 
> One vote from me, leave option for ceramic bearing upgrade available.


Thanks for the input!


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

verrocchio100 said:


> Speaking for myself Jim, I pricing isn't the issue for me; I will gladly pay for the performance! Top end offerings are well within the current range that is offered, IMO.
> 
> One vote from me, leave option for ceramic bearing upgrade available.


Same here.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> The current design will stay as is and still be offered with all the extras as standard. The new hub design will be a complete model line in itself. We are still deciding on a few things to reduce price on this new line as well. 1. Steel bearings 2. No upgrade program on this line 3. limit colors on end-caps etc. 4. no custom engraving
> 
> These are things we'll have to iron out before production launch, but this hub line will be targeted more towards the mainstream with concerns over weight and cost.


Jim, thank you for the detailed answers and the insight into your new design! Sounds like you are trying to streamline the process and/or reduce inventory to come up with a more competitive price point for this new hub. I'm all for that! My personal interest is mostly in the silent drive mechanism (sprag clutch). Everything else is less of a priority. My thoughts on the four items you mentioned:

As long as they are reliable, the material makes little difference to me. Having said that, I can see how this could be a desirable feature, especially if the upcharge is minimal.
While I liked the idea at first, realistically, this will probably not be useful to me. Almost without exception, the only time I look for a wheelset is when I'm putting together a new bike...which means the old set of wheels is being sold with the old bike.
By limited do you mean one color? Not really an issue for me if it's something like anodized black or clear.
Wasn't aware this was an option. Kind of a cool way to do something special, but it would be low on the priority list for me.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Simplemind said:


> I just find it interesting that so many people focus on weight with little regard to where that weight is located.


Sure, where the weight is located matters, but overall weight does too. Think about this for a while, it's not just your wheels that are accelerating forwards and backwards, you are turning, you are going up and down. Lifting your bike several thousand feet requires lots of upwards accelerations, in addition to forward accelerations, pretty much constantly. Every pedal stroke is an acceleration because you can't maintain constant output. Wrenching the bike left and right is acceleration. With all of these, the mass is important. In some conditions/trails, I can go ride a very lightweight bike and just keep clicking out the miles because the entire system of the bike is lightweight and doesn't affect me nearly as much as the alternative. When you start adding heavier parts, heavier carnks, hubs, rims, bars, add some more suspension or less efficiency, it starts to bog down and it takes a toll. When you are building a lightweight bike for racing purposes, you simply can not compromise or you are at least severely limited in your ability to do so, as far as component selection. If I want to run a dropper, it adds weight and I have to look for somewhere else to drop some off. I totally get that people may be willing to make these sacrifices in some areas, like people that go with CK or Onyx hubs, but think about the flipside too, if you are building a go-fast bike and trying to do so to improve results, you try to line up as many things in your favor as possible, from the bike weight and performance to your hydration to your clothing (and yes, reliability is one of those things too!). Again, you are extremely limited in the compromises you can make in this pursuit. Some of us consider it to be fun because we put in a lot of effort and time riding and we get to see these results and we make little tweaks here and there. A good product will sell, especially if it fills a niche like heavyweight/extreme torque applications, a significantly heavier hub won't be for everyone either though and it's also fun to ride a light bike in my experience.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

The "racing" part in Onyx Racing is meant for the gated start events, I think.


FWIW, with more time dedicated to riding, I found myself increasing weight of some components (frame, fork, crankset, stem, rear hub, going back to steel bolts everywhere) and decreasing rotating weight (tubes, tires). This way I spend less time working on bike, and the onset of fatigue cracking in critical parts is delayed or even prevented.


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## Aaron1017 (Jun 1, 2010)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> The current design will stay as is and still be offered with all the extras as standard. The new hub design will be a complete model line in itself. We are still deciding on a few things to reduce price on this new line as well. 1. Steel bearings 2. No upgrade program on this line 3. limit colors on end-caps etc. 4. no custom engraving
> 
> These are things we'll have to iron out before production launch, but this hub line will be targeted more towards the mainstream with concerns over weight and cost.


Any upgrade to the sealing on the newer (and old) hubs?"Freehub" labyrinth seal is VERY good but feel the end bearings could be sealed better. My Hope Pro II outer bearings are sealed very well and lasted 4+ years.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

Streamlining our production is a constant moving target, so we are always trying to improve on that. When I stated limited, it was referring to the end cap color choices (probably just do black as they are not seen that much anyway) and other value added services like free laser etching (will be hard to do on the new design), etc. 
I'm sure we will make ceramic bearings an upgrade charge.



compengr said:


> Jim, thank you for the detailed answers and the insight into your new design! Sounds like you are trying to streamline the process and/or reduce inventory to come up with a more competitive price point for this new hub. I'm all for that! My personal interest is mostly in the silent drive mechanism (sprag clutch). Everything else is less of a priority. My thoughts on the four items you mentioned:
> 
> As long as they are reliable, the material makes little difference to me. Having said that, I can see how this could be a desirable feature, especially if the upcharge is minimal.
> While I liked the idea at first, realistically, this will probably not be useful to me. Almost without exception, the only time I look for a wheelset is when I'm putting together a new bike...which means the old set of wheels is being sold with the old bike.
> ...


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

As you stated there are many factors to be considered when building a bike, weight is defiantly one of them. However based on test that have been done by reputable third parties, performance seems to be the most heavily weighted (no pun intended). So lighter doesn't mean more efficient or faster. See attached study provided by Duke University. https://www.dropbox.com/s/cs2g251nz9faz14/dev-wheel-spindown.pdf?dl=0

Now if you're talking feel of a bike due to weight that is entirely user preference and I'd agree 100% with you.

As a rider I too appreciate the many different options of products available to tweak my bikes. I personally can't tell the difference in the weight of the rear hub from another but other many notice the grams. It's all good input for us though and appreciate your comments!



Jayem said:


> Sure, where the weight is located matters, but overall weight does too. Think about this for a while, it's not just your wheels that are accelerating forwards and backwards, you are turning, you are going up and down. Lifting your bike several thousand feet requires lots of upwards accelerations, in addition to forward accelerations, pretty much constantly. Every pedal stroke is an acceleration because you can't maintain constant output. Wrenching the bike left and right is acceleration. With all of these, the mass is important. In some conditions/trails, I can go ride a very lightweight bike and just keep clicking out the miles because the entire system of the bike is lightweight and doesn't affect me nearly as much as the alternative. When you start adding heavier parts, heavier carnks, hubs, rims, bars, add some more suspension or less efficiency, it starts to bog down and it takes a toll. When you are building a lightweight bike for racing purposes, you simply can not compromise or you are at least severely limited in your ability to do so, as far as component selection. If I want to run a dropper, it adds weight and I have to look for somewhere else to drop some off. I totally get that people may be willing to make these sacrifices in some areas, like people that go with CK or Onyx hubs, but think about the flipside too, if you are building a go-fast bike and trying to do so to improve results, you try to line up as many things in your favor as possible, from the bike weight and performance to your hydration to your clothing (and yes, reliability is one of those things too!). Again, you are extremely limited in the compromises you can make in this pursuit. Some of us consider it to be fun because we put in a lot of effort and time riding and we get to see these results and we make little tweaks here and there. A good product will sell, especially if it fills a niche like heavyweight/extreme torque applications, a significantly heavier hub won't be for everyone either though and it's also fun to ride a light bike in my experience.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

Sure thing, we modified the cinch nut on the non-drive side to have a flat o-ring seal, this can be easily adapted to your current hub. The drive side is a little more difficult to seal without adding a lot of resistance (heavy seal/grease on driver bearing). We are working on a better sealing bearing that will allow similar performance to the current mid-seal we use now.

It is always an option to clean and repack the bearings with a thicker grease (not the clutches, just the bearings). This will provide a longer maintenance period, but will reduce the efficiency. See our youtube channel for details on how to perform this. 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCznYJx56StXT7ZGuGFujPnA



Aaron1017 said:


> Any upgrade to the sealing on the newer (and old) hubs?"Freehub" labyrinth seal is VERY good but feel the end bearings could be sealed better. My Hope Pro II outer bearings are sealed very well and lasted 4+ years.


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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

Hey Jim, just a thought from an end user with no background in design how about o-ring seals sandwiched between mating surfaces to prevent water/debris intrusion?

Since the hub surfaces are CNC or EDM, would there need to be a vast change in line code to make a channel for an o-ring seal like on the end caps and not on the edge?

Or another avenue would be to allow better draining so when cleaing the bike, the water can carry the debris away rather than letting the crap accrue.

I see a lot more sealing structures within fishing reels than ever before and even more areas to allow drainage, so thats where me comments come from.

However, I could be talking just a bunch of nonsense.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks for the input, we'll have to turn up a test piece and see. I think we all agree the labyrinth seal is best when it can be used as it provides little to no friction and has excellent sealing properties. Your first idea is something we discussed before and is doable, just haven't tried it yet. It would require a custom o-ring. I'm not so sure on your second comment about easier draining, this seems like a design like this would also lend itself to easier debris access as well, since most of the time a bike hub is subject to small sand and other dirt particles as well as the liquids. We will take a look at some of those fishing reels! Thanks!


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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

The draining is a double edge sword Jim. Good to keep the water/debris out but still need to keep things clean. The best sealed reels I have worked on are made by Shimano/Daiwa/Okuma; as a tangent.

As for bearings, I know the much preferred Enduro Bearings; however, here's another option and my 2 cents worth:

https://www.bocabearings.com/produc...-seal-ceramic-1?loadseries=true&ProductType=2

Mod's strike the post if inappropriate to link to another site.

BTW, the blue ano'd CL hub is svelte!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Jim is right about hard particles being always introduced with water. These are a *much* bigger concern than water. Modern general purpose greases can absorb some water and still perform, but grit is the scourge.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

As a trade-off between increased friction and a practical contaminant seal, I subscribe to a modest light grease on the seal and hub contact points. Slick Honey or freehub grease work well in my personal experience.


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## rwitte (Apr 6, 2004)

Jim, will there be a Boost Single Speed specific version of the new lightened hub? Fingers crossed.


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## kopavi (Jan 11, 2013)

Jim:
A novice here. I saw the picture below of the prototype hub and my thought was would there be a benefit to build a hub with two 1/2 sprag half clutches?

View attachment 1179620


You could have the original hub with 2 full sprag clutches for riders that need the maximum performance, the mid-range with 1 sprag and 1/2 sprag for the next tier rider, then have the 2 1/2 sprag clutches for your low tier riders (old, slow cross country riders).

I'm not even sure how much of the weight is in the sprag clutch mechanism so this idea may be a bad one.


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## willysurf (Sep 17, 2005)

Jim,

Do you have any EA for when LB will have the new lighter hubs available? I am getting ready to pull the trigger on an LB wheelset but will wait for the lighter hubs if they are not more than 2 months out.

Thanks,
Willy


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Any plans for a 110 centerlock torque cap front hub?


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

rwitte said:


> Jim, will there be a Boost Single Speed specific version of the new lightened hub? Fingers crossed.


Yes I'm quite sure we'll have that as well. The plan is to have pretty much everything available.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

We're very close. 2 months is probably on the soonest side.



willysurf said:


> Jim,
> 
> Do you have any EA for when LB will have the new lighter hubs available? I am getting ready to pull the trigger on an LB wheelset but will wait for the lighter hubs if they are not more than 2 months out.
> 
> ...


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

Not possible currently. Torque cap and centerlock lockring sit in same spot.



farfromovin said:


> Any plans for a 110 centerlock torque cap front hub?


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

All the new lighter-weight hubs have the 1-1/2 sprag design like in the photo. The photo you posted is actually our current road hub, but will be similar design on new hubs, just with the exception to allow for a 12mm thru-axle, so driver and internal bearing changes a bit. Our current dual sprag is more than adequate for any weight/load rider. The sprag capacity is a small part of the calculation, other factors on internal components is what we are currently field testing. ;^)



kopavi said:


> Jim:
> A novice here. I saw the picture below of the prototype hub and my thought was would there be a benefit to build a hub with two 1/2 sprag half clutches?
> 
> View attachment 1179620
> ...


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

I've been watching these hubs with interest for a while now. A silent hub for back country riding sounds great. As everyone is adding to the wish list, I thought I might try the same.

I'd be happy to sacrifice some rolling speed for better sealing. Weather kills anything with moving parts really quickly here in the UK.

I'd also like to see a MiniDriver freehub offered as use the Hope 10-48 11 speed cassette.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

Both excellent points! We are currently looking into the minidriver, it is an interesting concept and I like that it is open source!



onzadog said:


> I've been watching these hubs with interest for a while now. A silent hub for back country riding sounds great. As everyone is adding to the wish list, I thought I might try the same.
> 
> I'd be happy to sacrifice some rolling speed for better sealing. Weather kills anything with moving parts really quickly here in the UK.
> 
> I'd also like to see a MiniDriver freehub offered as use the Hope 10-48 11 speed cassette.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

onzadog said:


> I'd be happy to sacrifice some rolling speed for better sealing. Weather kills anything with moving parts really quickly here in the UK.


Another vote for this.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

We are leaning towards offering two bearing options, one ceramic for the performance minded and one steel with heavier seals for those out for better sealing. These are being tested in the field now. We have also changed the seals on the end caps to help prevent anything from getting to the bearings as well.


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## rpearce1475 (Jan 24, 2015)

Will these new, lighter weight internals be swappable into current Onyx hubs?


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Consider my interest piqued. Is there a UK importer?


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

rpearce1475 said:


> Will these new, lighter weight internals be swappable into current Onyx hubs?


No, these are a complete different model.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

pm sent



onzadog said:


> Consider my interest piqued. Is there a UK importer?


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## softbatch (Aug 19, 2014)

Jim,

It sounds like you're trying to make a price point on these newer hub designs. Are you reducing the cost of the hubs to be under the current 2 full sprag hub?

So basically less weight and lower cost?


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## azjonboy (Dec 21, 2006)

Love the fact that Jim is so present on this forum. 

I've run King and I9 hubs for years. Also have some Hadleys. After talking with James at Black Sheep, he recommended I give the Onyx hub a shot. 

Built a set of wheels up for the 29+ and went with Onyx. Super glad I did! rolling super quiet through the desert at night or the pines up north when alone in back country is really cool 😎 

Having instant engagement when climbing the tech stuff is also nice.

I have two wheel builds coming up, one SS and the other mid fat. Both will roll on Onyx!


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## canadianjerkey (Feb 27, 2014)

Oh geeze, just under 500 posts to catch up on these hubs! 

Likely worth it though since I swear my I9's have given me tinnitus.


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## Bhaalgorn (Jul 16, 2015)

Has anyone had success with alternate greases on the sprags? 

I have dozens of greases and really don't want to spend $40 on a tube of grease (cheapest I found was $35 shipped for 45g) I'll only ever use on this one hub.


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

Bhaalgorn said:


> Has anyone had success with alternate greases on the sprags?
> 
> I have dozens of greases and really don't want to spend $40 on a tube of grease (cheapest I found was $35 shipped for 45g) I'll only ever use on this one hub.


Spendy it is and i made a mistake and got there high speed spindle version . So i figured if it last on a lathe or end mill i would never break it down . So i use it on all bearings , pedales , wheels, cranks etc , seems to be fine and its alot thinner viscosity ..and of course use it on rear hub mechanism

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Bhaalgorn said:


> Has anyone had success with alternate greases on the sprags?
> 
> I have dozens of greases and really don't want to spend $40 on a tube of grease (cheapest I found was $35 shipped for 45g) I'll only ever use on this one hub.





blacksheep5150 said:


> Spendy it is and i made a mistake and got there high speed spindle version . So i figured if it last on a lathe or end mill i would never break it down . *So i use it on* all bearings , pedales , wheels, cranks etc , seems to be fine and its alot thinner viscosity ..and of course use it on rear hub mechanism


What is it? Define what you're using.


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> No issues in extreme cold weather. We recommend the use of Kluber LDS 18 Spec A greaase, very light coating. Less is more in this application. The grease limits are
> 
> 
> Upper Heat Range 120 deg Celsius
> ...


I assume this is what is being referred to.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

I'm guessing that the Kluber grease is likely called out by the sprag manufacturer. Probably for a specific film thickness. 

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## Bhaalgorn (Jul 16, 2015)

I'm determined to find an acceptable alternative, so we'll see.

Can anyone with the Kluber grease provide some comparisons to describe its viscosity? I'm thinking Rock n Roll Super Web might be a good starting point.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

With Kluber LDS 18 Spec A grease pricing at about $1 per gram, I would be seeking out another "dynamically light long-term grease".


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## Bhaalgorn (Jul 16, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> With Kluber LDS 18 Spec A grease pricing at about $1 per gram, I would be seeking out another "dynamically light long-term grease".


Exactly


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Bhaalgorn said:


> I'm determined to find an acceptable alternative, so we'll see.
> 
> Can anyone with the Kluber grease provide some comparisons to describe its viscosity? I'm thinking Rock n Roll Super Web might be a good starting point.


Prolly something closer to a freehub styled grease. Lubiplate #105 maybe?

Rock n Roll Super Web grease is a high PTFE thick waterproof grease that is more applicable to traditional bearing grease.


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## Bhaalgorn (Jul 16, 2015)

I don't think that's waterproof. I like super web because it's pretty thin water proof and it does a good job of staying put.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Bhaalgorn said:


> I don't think that's waterproof.


If you're referring to Lubiplate not being waterproof, I will prolly agree. My reference to the Lubiplate was the viscosity similarity.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Given the role this grease plays in the function of the hub, I would be very hesitant to experiment. I would wait for Jim to chime in or give them a call before using anything other than what's recommend.

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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm afraid any alternatives are just as exotic and expensive.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

J. Random Psycho said:


> I'm afraid any alternatives are just as exotic and expensive.


You might be correct. However, we might already have an acceptable lubricant immediately available. The specified Kluber LDS 18 Spec A grease is based on mineral oil, ester oil and a lithium soap. This is a very common base or foundation for many readily available lubricants. I seriously doubt that this specified Kluber grease contains any proprietary ingredients that these Sprag clutches can not live without.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Cleared2land said:


> You might be correct. However, we might already have an acceptable lubricant immediately available. The specified Kluber LDS 18 Spec A grease is based on mineral oil, ester oil and a lithium soap. This is a very common base or foundation for many readily available lubricants. I seriously doubt that this specified Kluber grease contains any proprietary ingredients that these Sprag clutches can not live without.


The "long-term", "resistant to ageing, oxidation" part might be the trick?

Here are versions of MSDS and TDS that list more data on this grease than some others I found (perhaps there are still more complete ones):
https://www.makino.com/pdfs/msds/isoflex.pdf
http://yairerez.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Isoflex-LDS-18-special-A.pdf


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

J. Random Psycho said:


> The "long-term", "resistant to ageing, oxidation" part might be the trick?


I think most *quality* lubricants will meet those requirements.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Although the fat bike snow season is not completely over, it's close so I'll to out on a limb and say that I have completed my first ever season w/o major hub issues. I have gone through Hope (couldn't keep a the bearings in good shape to save my life) /I9 (cracked the DS hub flange) / 907 (just garbage hubs) / Onyx (cracked NDS hub flange).

Hoping this Onyx and I will have years of riding bliss together. I am surprised I was not contacted by Onyx for testing of their new lightweight hubs. :ihih:


The only two hubs I trust are Chris King and Onyx. That might not mean a lot to some people, but it means a lot to me!! :thumbsup:


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

jonshonda said:


> The only two hubs I trust are Chris King and Onyx.


True Precision were nice as well. I can swear by my S2 Poacher. But alas, they went out of business when Onyx came along.


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## mikkosan (Jun 26, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> True Precision were nice as well. I can swear by my S2 Poacher. But alas, they went out of business when Onyx came along.


As far as I know, they're still in business. I use their S4 hubs and an Onyx. Both solid hubs!

Only thing I know is that Box Components purchased TP. But their site is still up

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Baltazar (Jan 30, 2004)

al you that hunt other grease, buy a really expensive hubs, and hunts dollars when it comes to things needed for serve the hub, a thing you do many once a year or even that?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

It's not the price as much as the combination of exotic, disposable, and limited shelf life in a thing that's necessary to keep the bike running.


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

Regarding the Special grease we require in our clutches. It is not so much as to what's in the grease, it's really whats NOT in the grease. PTFE/Graphite/etc. The clutch operates on friction, any change to that minimal amount of friction, too much or too little, will make the clutch actuate differently or not at all. The Kluber grease is a synthetic long term grease without slippery additives. This allows the clutch to operate properly. Too thick of a grease will prevent the individual sprags from moving, so they won't engage/disengage properly. Less is more in this application, the grease is very lightweight, won't break down quickly and prevents corrosion. CNC specialy sore online has a tube for $28. This should last you many lifetimes! We do have this same grease spec'd in our bearings, but this is not mandatory. We use it throughout the hub just in case of cross-contamination, with that said, we haven't seen any issues where people have used different grease in the bearings. We have seen issues where non-spec grease has been used in the clutch. My advice is to use the correct grease. If you have trouble finding it give us a call/email. If you already have your hub apart and don't have the grease, it is best to put it back together dry then coat it with grease when you get it.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Thank you Jim!

Now that we know it shouldn't contain solid additives, and in accordance with DIN 51502, the Kluber Isoflex LDS 18 Special A grease designation would be KE 2 K-50, or KPE 2 K-50, and we could be looking for a similar grease by designation without letter F in between the first K and the consistency grade digit, NLGI grade of 1 to 2, and just as low or lower service temperature bound.

Substitute greases could then be the likes of:
Mobil Unirex S2 (base oil viscosity might be too high)
Fuchs Renolit S2
Castrol Optitemp TT1 (base oil viscosity?)
SKF LEGE 2


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## Jim Gerhardt (Jan 16, 2015)

I don't know about alternative greases and can't recommend or endorse the ones you've listed. I wouldn't risk it over $28.



J. Random Psycho said:


> Thank you Jim!
> 
> Now that we know it shouldn't contain solid additives, and in accordance with DIN 51502, the Kluber Isoflex LDS 18 Special A grease designation would be KE 2 K-50, or KPE 2 K-50, and we could be looking for a similar grease by designation without letter F in between the first K and the consistency grade digit, NLGI grade of 1 to 2, and just as low or lower service temperature bound.
> 
> ...


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I wouldn't risk it either. It's only for when the choice is between one of these or a general purpose grease from auto supply store.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

A buddy sent his Nox Teo w/Onyx hub through my little garage workshop for a pre-ride check and tubeless setup w/CushCore install.

He wanted me to see just how "instant" Onyx was. Going by just the freehub, it definitely was instant, but I wanted to see just how instant it was on the bike with it in the granny gear. Also, it seemed as quiet and smooth as a lightly dragging brake rotor. He said that he expected it to break in... I'm going to remain skeptical until it's all assembled on his bike.

Anyone know what version he got based on the outside appearance? All I know is that it's black, 12x142, and XD. I don't know if it's the 1 and 1/2 sprag lightweight version or not.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

Those are the dee-luxe original version, the lightweights have not been released yet.


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## Bhaalgorn (Jul 16, 2015)

I was going to service my Onyx hubs, but after I pulled the drive-side bearing, I realized I own an older model Onyx hub where the sprag sits in a sleeve that has to be pressed in and out, and all bearings come out the drive side. 

I called Onyx to confirm the procedure and ask what tools are typically used for the sleeve removal, and it sounded like I'd need more specialized tools than a slide hammer. However, Onyx said they'd service the hub free of charge provided I pay shipping both ways. You have to unlace the hub, of course, but I thought that was pretty awesome.

Also, Onyx sells the Kluber LDS liquid gold stuff in service-size packets of 2g for $5. 

I decided not to try different lubes since I don't have any non-lubricating greases.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Bhaalgorn said:


> I decided not to try different lubes since I don't have any non-lubricating greases.


What?

Non-lubricating grease?


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## Bhaalgorn (Jul 16, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> What?
> 
> Non-lubricating grease?


That's correct. If you read Jim's reply, it matches what Onyx customer service told me over the phone. What makes the required grease special is that it doesn't lubricate.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

Bhaalgorn said:


> That's correct. If you read Jim's reply, it matches what Onyx customer service told me over the phone. What makes the required grease special is that it doesn't lubricate.


Grease lubricates by nature, this grease is special because it does not contain any friction modifiers which would make the sprags too slippery to function as designed.


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## Bhaalgorn (Jul 16, 2015)

I get the importance of semantics. I'm just relaying the verbiage used by the CS rep.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Bhaalgorn said:


> I decided not to try different lubes since I don't have any non-lubricating greases.





Cleared2land said:


> What?
> 
> Non-lubricating grease?





Bhaalgorn said:


> That's correct. If you read Jim's reply, it matches what Onyx customer service told me over the phone. What makes the required grease special is that it doesn't lubricate.


Kluber Isoflex LDS 18 Special A grease is a lubricating grease that does not contain modifiers such as PTFE or graphite. It is still an approved bearing grease that lubricates.

Jim's comment and reference said nothing about the specified grease being 'non-lubricating'. That would entirely defeat the purpose. It needs to lubricate to do its job. He stated that Kluber did not contain added modifiers such as PTFE to make it too slick.

This isn't a semantics argument.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

The mythical non-lubricating grease... going to tell this to one of my ride buddies that often has issues with creaking bits on his Cannondale. "Just slather non-lubricating grease on everything. You cannot be sure that it's not something like your disc brakes that is causing those creaks. It's safe for them since it's non-lubricating. It's like lotion, but for metal; it reconditions the surface to ideal conditions!"

Might work as well as the blinker fluid gag. People must not want to run out of it, considering their blinker etiquette on the road, not using it for right hand turns or using it minimally when changing lanes (if at all).


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## Bhaalgorn (Jul 16, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> This isn't a semantics argument.


Minimally lubricating? Non-slick? Call it what you want, be as much of a turd as you want, but again, I'm just parroting what their customer service rep said. I'm not a grease expert.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Bhaalgorn said:


> I'm not a grease expert.


I think most here will agree with you on that statement.


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## WLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Saw the Kluber Isoflex LDS 18 on Amazon for $45.99 for a 2 oz tube. Now that would service many hubs for longer than I'm going to be alive, so I was wondering if it would also be a suitable grease for the pivot bearings & bottom bracket bearings on my Hightower. Any suggestions?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

WLB,
for these (especially linkage pivot bearings, also headset bearings) you may want something with a higher base oil viscosity, and _with_ solid additives. Depending on your typical weather, possibly also something that says waterproof in description, or low temperature, or both.

For instance, check out greases for Rzeppa type constant-velocity joints. These are not exotic because they are routinely used on cars.










They are intended to be neglected for maintenance and even run with damaged boots.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

The bike industry is expert at taking common industrial products and re-packaging them in smaller quantities for marked-up resale. Bearings, lubes, seals, suspension fluid, etc...


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## WLB (Apr 25, 2011)

J. Random Psycho said:


> WLB,
> for these (especially linkage pivot bearings, also headset bearings) you may want something with a higher base oil viscosity, and _with_ solid additives. Depending on your typical weather, possibly also something that says waterproof in description, or low temperature, or both.
> 
> For instance, check out greases for Rzeppa type constant-velocity joints. These are not exotic because they are routinely used on cars..................


Yeah, thats kind of what i was thinking too. Already have some ordinary marine grade type non lithium grease to use for bearings & stuff, just need to grab a small tube of the Kluber for the occasional hub service.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Is there a way to convert a onyx front hub from traditional to boost spacing? Just picked up some wheels with onyx hubs and want to use my boost fork.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

thedrizzle said:


> Is there a way to convert a onyx front hub from traditional to boost spacing? Just picked up some wheels with onyx hubs and want to use my boost fork.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, however you probably have to send it to Onyx. That's what I had to do with my rear hub, the front may be different. Just call them, they're very responsive.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Simplemind said:


> Yes, however you probably have to send it to Onyx. That's what I had to do with my rear hub, the front may be different. Just call them, they're very responsive.


Thanks. I am in Australia so i emailed them. I'd love to keep my current fork.


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## strikeir13 (Sep 23, 2009)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> We're very close. 2 months is probably on the soonest side.


How is the production on the lighter hubs going? I'm early in the process of purchasing new wheels this spring and very much looking forward to these!


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

I just got my upgraded hubs back from Onyx, went from non boost center lock hubs with steel XD driver to Boost 6 bolt with alloy XD driver and torque caps for my Pike fork. Total of 1g wight savings. Rear now at 428 and front at 238g. Oid hubs were 442 and 219g. So basically I now have new boost with alloy Xd driver and front torque caps and 6 bolts hubs for 350 total cost. The quality of these hubs are amazing. The old hubs were about 2to 2.5 years old and never been touched internally and still smooth as can be!!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Any closer on the lightweight version?

I might need a new hub pronto.


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm interested in this too, and the mini driver


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## Emdexpress (Jan 24, 2018)

If you have seen/touched an Onxy hub, you know it reeks of quality. I will own this hub as soon as their field tests are complete and they have shaved one half pound off the hub. Please do not tell a XC Guy the weight does not matter. Save your breath. I purchased a Project 321 quiet hub that does the same job at less than half the weight. Almost dead quiet by using magnetic prawns instead of springs. I want an Onxy and expect to build my next wheel set with the new reduced weight model in red. As far as the weird feeling some are experiencing, I would not care much. I have had loud clunks back there some years back from horrible engagment. Things are so much better today. Very pleased with the Project 321. Great company and they stand behind their products very strongly.


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## critterdesign (Jan 25, 2008)

Jim Gerhardt said:


> We're very close. 2 months is probably on the soonest side.


Hi Jim, Thank you for all the comments on this forum, I am very interested in the new lighter Hubs. I want the Onyx Hub with either the Nobl or We are one rims, Orange hubs with ceramic bearings. could care less about end cap color. Any idea on when the new hubs will be available?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I've broken 2 'X' hubs in a row. Tired of not riding my bike. 

If this lightweight Onyx hub was available today, I'd order it. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Suns_PSD said:


> I've broken 2 'X' hubs in a row. Tired of not riding my bike.
> 
> If this lightweight Onyx hub was available today, I'd order it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


i will buil$a new wheel set as soon as the new lighter hub is available. I was recently told it will be in six months. Looks like next spring!


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## lloydus (Sep 16, 2015)

Watching this thread intently. Coming from the BMX side will the new hub be immediately available for a race BMX product 110m?
Thx, Lloyd


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

I also will purchase an Onyx hub after it loses a couple hundred grams. I was obsessed in finding quiet Hubs. I ask skipped Onyx because I could find a hub that weighs half as much and do the same job. Beautiful hub and works so well but it is a fat pig. Should have the lighter model out in six months.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Emdexpress said:


> Almost dead quiet by using magnetic *prawns* instead of springs.


Does the hub smell fishy after awhile?


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Nat said:


> Does the hub smell fishy after awhile?


I guess you never have an auto correct get passed you. I know I am not perfect....but try to be.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I like Prawns.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Yeah. I like porn too. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

District 9 anyone?


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

So, anyway....

Jim, when are those new hubs going to be available? I have money burning a hole in my pocket. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

You are not alone. I almost bought the pig but I need to wait for Cinderella. I can always use another wheel set and Fanatibike will build it.


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## lloydus (Sep 16, 2015)

I was looking back at old posts and on Jan 28 Jim Gerhardt said "2 months is on the soonest side" so maybe another month or two?


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## kevinboyer (Jan 19, 2012)

I talked to Onyx on May 1st for about 30 minutes regarding the new lighter weight hubs for a new build I am doing. The gentleman I talked to said they "hoped" to have these hubs ready to show at Outerbike in late September, or sooner if all goes well. I don't think that means they will be ready for sale to the public though. I can't wait that long unfortunately, so I'll be purchasing the current boost rear hub with the "upgraded" alloy XD freehub. That should shave some weight off.


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## laserjockrock (Jun 22, 2015)

Subscribed! Been hearing about the lighter Onyx, and looking forward to the release. Considering for a new Ripmo build this summer...

Question: Hear a lot of folks talking about silence, engagement, and weight - but *not* about spinning resistance (friction).

Seems to me that even if you had an extra fraction-of-a-percent less friction/resistance, then that would totally overcome any minor weight increases in terms of energy expenditure over a long ride...

Is there any hard data (or even solid subjective user experiences over time) that show the premium Onyx hubs offer less rolling resistance vs. other hubs?

The only figure I can think of is that if a hub is making 'noise' then there must be some mechanical energy converted into sound energy. But, this doesn't necessarily mean that the Onyx are more efficient. Nor does it speak to efficiency while engaged/pedaling; only coasting.

Thoughts?


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## Aaron1017 (Jun 1, 2010)

laserjockrock said:


> Subscribed! Been hearing about the lighter Onyx, and looking forward to the release. Considering for a new Ripmo build this summer...
> 
> Question: Hear a lot of folks talking about silence, engagement, and weight - but *not* about spinning resistance (friction).
> 
> ...


Dont overthink it. That being said, Onyx hubs spin as well as a front wheel.


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## karmaphi (Mar 19, 2018)

Aaron1017 said:


> Dont overthink it. That being said, Onyx hubs spin as well as a front wheel.


I didn't find this to be remotely true.

Friend built up wheel with Onyx rear hub and it definitely stays engaged when it spins, and has noticeable drag. We reasoned that it might need some break-in time, but pretty much forgot about re-testing it.

I have much freer spinning rear wheels in my collection. For example, my Bontrager rear road wheel that's been through some gunk and an old Edge (Enve) DT rear XC wheel both spin very easily, both loaded and unloaded.

I will agree with what another said, about it being like a lightly rubbing disc brake.


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## ymiller996 (Jul 1, 2013)

karmaphi said:


> I didn't find this to be remotely true.
> 
> Friend built up wheel with Onyx rear hub and it definitely stays engaged when it spins, and has noticeable drag. We reasoned that it might need some break-in time, but pretty much forgot about re-testing it.
> 
> ...


I have had mine since last fall, at first they are a little stiff. Once broken in, the rear does spin like a front wheel. Have had Kings and DT 240's and the Onyx rear spins noticeably freer than them.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

ymiller996 said:


> I have had mine since last fall, at first they are a little stiff. Once broken in, the rear does spin like a front wheel. Have had Kings and DT 240's and the Onyx rear spins noticeably freer than them.


I have two sets, the first ones were smooth and seemingly frictionless right from the start. They remain the smoothest and best spinning hubs I have ever had and have been trouble free with a couple of years on them now. The second set was not quite as freakishly smooth out of the box, but still very nice. I expect them to break in to match the first set, and have been assured they will. They are a week or two from finally getting put on a bike.


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## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Has anyone heard any recent news on the availability of the light weight design?

Jim?


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## kevinboyer (Jan 19, 2012)

spec306 said:


> Has anyone heard any recent news on the availability of the light weight design?
> 
> Jim?


Look up at post 539. ^^^


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## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

kevinboyer said:


> Look up at post 539. ^^^


............and post 539 is 5 weeks old now. Things could have changed -- they could have moved the date up sooner or they could have hit a design snag and moved the date out. Hence, the reason I asked if there was a more recent update.


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## changingleaf (Apr 2, 2010)

*Color options*

The color options are really great. Here's the Poseidon Green that was offered a couple months ago.


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

I really need to decide on fork and front hub options soonish.


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## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

I called Onyx last week and they said the light weight version is still 1 - 2 months out. So, who really knows. Take my money already!!!!


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm holding up a build waiting for this hub. Does anyone know how likely the mini driver option will be? I really do like the Hope cassette I'm using.


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## scottay (Jan 5, 2004)

Can some one please point me to a spoke calc that has the Onyx dimensions? Cant seem to find one...

Thanks!


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

scottay said:


> Can some one please point me to a spoke calc that has the Onyx dimensions? Cant seem to find one...
> 
> Thanks!


Go to Onyx's site, select the desired hub, and look for "Spoke length calculator", down on the description section.


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## scottay (Jan 5, 2004)

Thanks!


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## zhendo (Aug 31, 2011)

Wanted to share some initial impressions for the new Nobl hub that I picked up - I wanted Onyx, but found the lighter weight (and nicer looking machining) of the Nobl version pretty appealing. I took the plunge and laced up a new wheel last week, finished tensioning Friday and rode Squamish all weekend.

The hub is honestly like nothing I've ever felt, and I mean that in a good way. It takes some getting used to, because it does have a "softer" engagement point than the harsher metallic grab of a conventional hub. I actually think it feels more precise than a typical hub because there is no "clang" when you jab at the pedals - just silent forward motion. I might compare it to the feel of SRAM vs. Shimano shifting...some people love the "KA-CHUNG" definitive movement of SRAM's shifting, whereas Shimano tends to feel more buttery, but can be perceived as vague. If Industry Nine is SRAM, Onyx is Shimano in this regard. I understand how some folks could be bothered by this, but I fall into the "this is awesome" camp.

I can't say I notice any improvement or disadvantage to the engagement speed over an Industry Nine hub, but they hubs definitely roll faster than anything I've used before. It's eery rolling through the woods with complete silence from the rear hub, and in the super sketchy dry conditions this weekend I found it was a lot easier for me to tell when my tires were about to break loose. Sure, I notice other rattles and things a bit more, but I really do think it lets you use your hearing as an asset to better read the trail and how the bike is reacting.

Obviously this is just first impressions, but I love the hubs so far and would wholly recommend that people consider taking the plunge.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Onyx is drop-shipping to the wheel builder right now, and then I'll get to offer an opinion on these hubs.

Pro-MTBer, I am not. But I'm the local crusty old asshole mechanic, and a real gear nerd. I'm anticipating liking them *a lot*, and not feeling the 200g weight penalty at the hub...especially since I'm taking like 600g+ out of my typical wheel build via thinner spokes, aluminum nipples, thinner rims, and lighter tires (shooting for 800g tires, whereas my current bike is probably like 1100+ (each)...).

I will not be surprised if some aspect of their function ends up bothering me. Like the 'soft on' instead of the hard clang with your ratcheting freehubs. Or even just the *total* silence. So this is kind of an experiment, but one I hope to enjoy and stick with.


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## DinoRidge (Aug 29, 2007)

Nobl was nice to show a weight of 173g for the front 6-bolt, but they don't show a weight for the rear. Anybody know/measure the weight?

@phuchmileif After a year on Onyx hubs, the only thing that has bothered me was the NON-silence coming from the rest of my bike. I found myself tracking down every little rattle with obsession!


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I thought I'd share something I recently learned about Onyx hubs. My non-drive side bearings got crunchy and needed to be replaced recently so I had the LBS take a look. The stock bearings are "ceramic hybrid," meaning that the races are ceramic and the ball bearings are steel. Since the LBS had standard steel bearings in stock they replaced them with one of those (~$8) rather than order in a ceramic hybrid bearing (~$45). I can't feel any difference in rolling resistance between the two.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

My experience is that crunchy bearings usually relates to bearings that have simply been compromised to some degree by ingress of dirt, dust or other contaminates. Usually a simple, but thorough cleaning, inspection and re-greasing appropriately addresses the problem and is much cheaper than replacement. The beauty of ceramic it that it's harder than most contaminates and takes a licking and keeps on ticking. In the end, it's really just a personal preference as to clean or replacement of the bearing.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

DinoRidge said:


> Nobl was nice to show a weight of 173g for the front 6-bolt, but they don't show a weight for the rear. Anybody know/measure the weight?
> 
> @phuchmileif After a year on Onyx hubs, the only thing that has bothered me was the NON-silence coming from the rest of my bike. I found myself tracking down every little rattle with obsession!


My guesstimate is with the Alloy XD driver, boost rear Rear hub should weigh about 410 g


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Cleared2land said:


> My experience is that crunchy bearings usually relates to bearings that have simply been compromised to some degree by ingress of dirt, dust or other contaminates. Usually a simple, but thorough cleaning, inspection and re-greasing appropriately addresses the problem and is much cheaper than replacement. The beauty of ceramic it that it's harder than most contaminates and takes a licking and keeps on ticking. In the end, it's really just a personal preference as to clean or replacement of the bearing.


That's good to know. I just went with my LBS' recommendation to replace the bearing. They only charged me $8 and included labor as part of my free tune-up so I'm pretty happy with that.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

Nat said:


> That's good to know. I just went with my LBS' recommendation to replace the bearing. They only charged me $8 and included labor as part of my free tune-up so I'm pretty happy with that.


Onyx hubs do not like water so be careful when submersing your hub or washing your bike. If you do go through a deep creek where the hub is totally submerged in water it needs to be totally gone through. I think onyx only has a two month warranty on the bearings themselves because they have no control since a source them from Germany. The bearings can be serviced as others have stated.


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## DinoRidge (Aug 29, 2007)

dgw7000 said:


> My guesstimate is with the Alloy XD driver, boost rear Rear hub should weigh about 410 g


Ok Ok, Nobl has an actual hub weight section on their site:
NOBL Actual Hub Weight 148x12 Boost Sram Alloy Freehub = 420g


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

dgw7000 said:


> Onyx hubs do not like water so be careful when submersing your hub or washing your bike. If you do go through a deep creek where the hub is totally submerged in water it needs to be totally gone through. I think onyx only has a two month warranty on the bearings themselves because they have no control since a source them from Germany. The bearings can be serviced as others have stated.


Thanks but I don't do that.


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Are onyx hubs any more prone to water or dirt ingress than any other hub? Riding in the UK, having a well sealed unit is pretty high up in my list of requirements.

Given they're from Minnesota, I'd imagine they are used to rain and mud.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

A well sealed hub is usually as simple as applying sufficient grease to the inside of the end caps or cinch nut where they meet with the outer bearing seal area as an added layer of protection. It's commonly a standard practice on any hub to aid in additional protection that is not usually addressed.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

I got my wheels in from Colorado Cyclist.

The rear hub feels amazing. They're not on a bike yet, but just sitting here playing with it, I am super excited to feel how they ride.

I do not feel any extraneous drag. Yes, there is a tiny little noise and a very very tiny bit of associated drag that I'm pretty sure will either go away or be even more minimal after break-in. But it certainly feels no worse than my other hubs, which all have very average ratchet setups. I have no way to scientifically prove it, but I actually am inclined to think that even the brand new onyx hub has less drag.

The bite is indeed instant. If I push the hub forward the absolutely slightest, barely-perceptible amount, then attempted to push it back...it doesn't move. At all. Based on these 'soft engagement' reports, I was expecting a tiny bit of slack. There's none...people are clearly just saying it's 'softer' because there is no awkward clunk of the ratchet mech engaging, which obviously is the most noticeable on typical hubs with like 7-10* or more or engagement, as they get much more time for the freewheel to accelerate before slamming home.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

phuchmileif said:


> I do not feel any extraneous drag. Yes, there is a tiny little noise and a very very tiny bit of associated drag that I'm pretty sure will either go away or be even more minimal after break-in. But it certainly feels no worse than my other hubs, which all have very average ratchet setups. I have no way to scientifically prove it, but I actually am inclined to think that even the brand new onyx hub has less drag.
> 
> The bite is indeed instant. If I push the hub forward the absolutely slightest, barely-perceptible amount, then attempted to push it back...it doesn't move. At all. Based on these 'soft engagement' reports, I was expecting a tiny bit of slack. There's none...people are clearly just saying it's 'softer' because there is no awkward clunk of the ratchet mech engaging, which obviously is the most noticeable on typical hubs with like 7-10* or more or engagement, as they get much more time for the freewheel to accelerate before slamming home.


Yes they will break in, my first set was very smooth from day one, I believe they slightly tightened up their specifications since then. My second set had more perceptible drag from new, but broke in nicely and is just as smooth as the first set. Your observations on the engagement match mine, but there is a definite difference in the hand feel and how they ride. There is no slack but under high torque there is a wind up as the sprags stand under load and the shell expands, it is essentially a spring effect so the net result is no loss of power but a great feel with the harshness of pawls or teeth eliminated. A few people don't seem to like this but I think it is a nice bonus feature of an excellent hub.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

I see! Glad to have the clarification.

I don't usually offer any opinion on parts I haven't installed yet, but these things are just too cool. I know that I'm going to like them...the lack of noise is an awesome bonus to my primary want, which is the instant engagement...I tend to ride low BB's around lots and lots of rocks, roots, stumps, et al, so ratcheting maneuvers become super-crucial.

I could definitely understand why someone might not want these on a gravity bike, or for lightweight XC...but for all us 'trail' guys in between, this extra weight seems way worth it. And as I may or may not have stated, I saved like 300-400g elsewhere (lighter tires, narrower wheels, lighter spokes) over what I'm currently riding, so these are still going to feel like a lightweight upgrade to me.


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## DinoRidge (Aug 29, 2007)

Are yours the new lightweight version?


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Not to my knowledge. Should be the 473g XD rear.


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

There's still no release date for the lightweight version as far as I'm aware. Love to be corrected on that though.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

I'm not normally a gram shaver, but, eh, c'mon...It's heavy because it's instant, silent, and indestructible. 473 grams was worth it...so I played gram counter elsewhere. Probably don't need pillar spokes. That's over 100g right there (between two wheels- I went 2.0/1.6 front and 2.0/1.8 rear). Alu nipples are another 20g per wheel. Heavy tires are nice, but anyone not downhilling can get away with shaving 200g+ per tire. Tubeless cuts out about 75-150 grams per wheel, depending on how heavy the tubes were and how much sealant you use. Heck, you could save over 100g on brake rotors...the lightest 180's are a little under 100g; many others are 150+.

200g should not be the showstopper if you're interested in these hubs, is all I'm trying to say...

I'm curious if/when they come out with a lighter version, if it will remain a separate model from the current hubs. The only way I see that they can get a significant improvement is to make the sprags weight less, whether that means they're smaller, less of them, or whatever. And I imagine that would turn it into a lighter-duty hub.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^ Sounds like a closet gram shaver


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## DinoRidge (Aug 29, 2007)

@phuchmileeif I'm with you on the 'worth it'. I built a light XC race bike up with Onyx hubs and have been extremely pleased. I'm having a plus-ish wheel built, and will use Onyx either way, but would certainly take a lighter version if it is available! Did you see post #423 in this thread?


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## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

phuchmileif said:


> I'm curious if/when they come out with a lighter version, if it will remain a separate model from the current hubs.


I asked about this somewhere earlier in the thread and the answer was yes it would remain separate.


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm now one step closer to my new build. I'm looking at using a Garbaruk 10-50 cassette. However, in the spec for these cassettes, they specify that the drive side end cap on an XD hub is no more than 21.0mm.

Does anyone know what the diameter is on the existing hub? If Jim is reading, do you know what the diameter will be on the new hub?


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

I just measured the old/current hub at 18mm. That's across the flats of the nut, which is the same diameter as the end of the cap. I had no idea there was a variance here- thought the sizes of the caps were pretty standard to ensure a proper interface with the frame dropouts.

I'll be using an ethirteen cassette (9-46), which I do not yet have on-hand. Was not anticipating any issues...


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Oh, BTW, I finally got a proper scale. I wanted it to go past 50lbs, though, so I got one of the the lower-resolution models. Only accurate to the 20g mark...see, not a closet weight weenie! 

My rear wheel ended up at about the 1200g mark. With an ~800g tire, a ~100g rotor, and some sealant, I'm right on 2200. Might seem really chunky, but I'm happy with it. This is with a 29" 30mm aluminum rim.

This is versus my current 27.5 bike with 35mm rims and chunky 2.5 tires...the FRONT is 2500g, LOL...


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks for that. What's the diameter at the widest part 90° from those flats?


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## Rockrover (Jul 4, 2012)

So many of us Onyx owners have struggled with how to describe the "squish", "slack", and overall "plushness" of our hubs. None really do it justice...But!

So the other day my LBS owner said; "I love Onyx! It's like driving with an automatic transmission!". That one works for me. Love these hubs!

There ya' go!


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

I got my bike together yesterday.

I still say it feels instant to me. I can't consider the lack of a 'clunk' on acceleration to be the same as there being slack. It's quite refreshing for someone who does a LOT of ratcheting.

When you're right at the top of a usable gear, it CAN be hard to tell if you're actually pedaling or not. With other hubs, you get that definite catch that lets you know you're not spun out. With this hub, though, getting on the gas when you're at high speed and low pedal effort can seem a little strange.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Has anyone compared onyx to the new silent shimano hub yet?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

phuchmileif said:


> I just measured the old/current hub at 18mm. That's across the flats of the nut, which is the same diameter as the end of the cap. I had no idea there was a variance here- thought the sizes of the caps were pretty standard to ensure a proper interface with the frame dropouts.
> 
> I'll be using an ethirteen cassette (9-46), which I do not yet have on-hand. Was not anticipating any issues...


Save your money , go eagle . Had two e13 cassettes . The aluminum gogs go away at 800 miles if you climb alot and 1200 miles general riding

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TX_CLG (Sep 14, 2010)

blacksheep5150 said:


> Save your money , go eagle . Had two e13 cassettes . The aluminum gogs go away at 800 miles if you climb alot and 1200 miles general riding
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Also the e13 is a complete pain in the ass to install and remove and special tools. I'd get a GX cassette and deal with extra weight rather than go through that again!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

At least the proprietary tool also fits e13 BB cups and it's made of steel unlike most new BB cup tools by tool brands big and small.

"Standards" these days. -_-


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

The e13 cassette came with my GG. It would only have saved me $130 to omit it; for that price, it seemed worth a try. I would not have bought it at the $200+ MSRP.

And it's the pinch bolt version, which is super weird. I get how the outer part of the cassette locks in, and can't come unlocked in normal operation...but I don't get why you would use a pinch instead of a separate nut for the base. It seems to work, although I can see a tiny bit of eccentricity to the whole cassette. Doesn't seem to affect operation.

I'll let things run their course...I'm on an M8000 derailleur with a cheap chain and chainring, so it's likely I'll just upgrade everything and move to a Shimano 12 speed in a year or so, when the price is right. Can't do SRAM because I hate the ergo of their shifters.

So far, I am loving these hubs, BTW. Can't imagine going back to a normal ratchet. And, comparing it to the Shimano freehub version and a Sunrace cassette (since the Shimano gear spread is awful), the XD with the e13 is almost _the exact same weight_.


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## aosty (Jan 7, 2004)

Onyx posted a teaser(?) video on IG... hmm, clicks?

__
http://instagr.am/p/BnmsF5NBezF/


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ I'm confused, just like all the people who commented. 

If it clicks, why does it seem to have 8 POE? The video doesn't show the freehub engaging either? Is this the lightweight version or something else entirely?


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## Pelly_NH (Feb 15, 2005)

Anyone heard any updates from Interbike?


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## B R H (Jan 13, 2004)

I heard not until Sea Otter. What's it been now - 2 years?


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

...my normal heavy Onyx hubs continue to operate brilliantly. All drag is gone.

Just bite the bullet and eat the 200g, fellas. It matters so little in that location, plus you can get it back from your cassette or tire pretty easily, unless you've already gone full-weight-weenie.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

You can't be considered a 'weight-weenie' with Onxy hubs. 

We all have our crosses to bear.


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## RaggedEdge (Feb 18, 2004)

https://www.bikemag.com/gear/interbike-round-up-day-2/


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Still no official release date. Man. I'm waiting on these things to come out so I can replace my DT Swiss wheels. Looks like upgrading to the microspline driver won't be an issue either.


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## RaggedEdge (Feb 18, 2004)

More photos mid way down and will drop 70 - 80 grams, looks great.

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/09/int...k-slick-rear-hubs-and-computer-mounts-galore/


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Might be why they are slow to bring the new hub to market:

https://bikerumor.com/2018/09/22/on...structible-mods-xd-driver-for-their-own-hubs/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## funnyjr (Oct 31, 2009)

Smart, really smart!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

So the new Shimano Spline freebody will also be available to Onyx hubs... Smart ...


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

And, as One-Up make a freehub to fit a Hope cassette to a DT hub, the Hope cassette also becomes an option.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> Might be why they are slow to bring the new hub to market:
> 
> https://bikerumor.com/2018/09/22/on...structible-mods-xd-driver-for-their-own-hubs/


That is a terrible article, though. They are largely missing the point and wrong about the XD freehubs.

Creating cross compatibility with DT Swiss is brilliant, I wonder if there will be a retrofit option for existing Onyx hubs? I would love to be able to ditch XD and go MicroSpline, I think the freehub body seal to the hubshell could be a problem there.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

All I want is a release date! Come on already!


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Velodonata said:


> That is a terrible article, though. They are largely missing the point and wrong about the XD freehubs.
> 
> Creating cross compatibility with DT Swiss is brilliant, I wonder if there will be a retrofit option for existing Onyx hubs? I would love to be able to ditch XD and go MicroSpline, I think the freehub body seal to the hubshell could be a problem there.


Don't recall on wich article I read it, but it seems you will be able to retrofit it to the old hubs.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Aglo said:


> Don't recall on wich article I read it, but it seems you will be able to retrofit it to the old hubs.


Yeah, I kinda thought I might have read it too, but the articles I have seen so far have been mediocre to poor so I won't believe it until I hear it from Onyx. I did just see on their Instagram a little clip of switching freehubs around and it looked like they had some sort of slip on adapter for the freehub sealing issue, so maybe that won't be an issue. The new hubs do use a different axle architecture, but I hope they make the new freehub system universal to their line, that would be fantastic.

Edit- Looking a little closer, the only downside I can see is this new system requires one more bearing than the previous four bearing design, which will eat up a bit of the weight savings. Tha axle is only supported by one bearing other than the freehub driver body, and with that now being a slip fit press together assembly, a second bearing is needed inside the freehub body. Which DT Swiss freehubs already have. The sprag driver is supported by two bearings, the freehub body by two, and the non-drive end of the hubshell by one.

The tolerances must be very good on the DT Swiss freehub splines for this to work well, and the new splined Onyx sprag driver body needs to be a very nice fit into the freehub body. I wonder when Onyx came up with this idea, it's probably got something to do with how long it is taking to get the new hubs out.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Aglo said:


> So the new Shimano Spline freebody will also be available to Onyx hubs... Smart ...


OHHHHHHH! I like to think I'm smart but I couldn't figure out what these articles were implying yesterday. Will be interesting to see if onyx buys drivers from DT and ships hubs complete or if you have to buy one yourself.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

92gli said:


> OHHHHHHH! I like to think I'm smart but I couldn't figure out what these articles were implying yesterday. Will be interesting to see if onyx buys drivers from DT and ships hubs complete or if you have to buy one yourself.


My first thought was "nice! I can use this anti bite freehub on my DTs", then I was "Genius!!!" .
I think it would be cheaper to us if the hub is shipped with the micro spline freehub, but I seriously doubt it will be that way.
I'm also curious on what was DT and Shimano position on all this.


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Any update on these new versions yet?


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

onzadog said:


> Any update on these new versions yet?


Still a few months out. Working out a few kinks before release still


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Wow - 7 pages / 600+ posts later and I am convinced I’ll use an Onyx hub on my next wheelset. Looking forward to seeing the new version of the hubs be released.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

Just a thought on the new, still unreleased hubs: should one see the continuous postponements as a sign that Onyx is struggling to make them durable? In such a case, maybe the current hub is the one to go for and just live with the weight.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Crossmaxx said:


> Just a thought on the new, still unreleased hubs: should one see the continuous postponements as a sign that Onyx is struggling to make them durable?


That's pure speculation. To my knowledge Onyx has never given a firm release date which means it's not been postponed. It simply still under development/testing.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> That's pure speculation. To my knowledge Onyx has never given a firm release date which means it's not been postponed. It simply still under development/testing.


Actually I am not satisfied of the durability of the standard version. I have got 3 sprag clutches destroyed by the plastic cage gone into peaces. There have been water ingress into the hub, and the bearings have been bad after few days of riding in autumn humid climate. The grease needed for the bearings is to light.

Compared to my dtswiss 350 hubs that is still smooth as butter, this is really disappointing. Price and weight difference are astronomical.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

*OneSpeed* said:


> That's pure speculation. To my knowledge Onyx has never given a firm release date which means it's not been postponed. It simply still under development/testing.


I wonder if they changed up the design in the middle of development to add DTSwiss/MicroSpline compatibility, and that delayed the entire process? I haven't gone back and looked too hard, but it kind of seems that way.


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## BareNecessities (Nov 21, 2012)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Actually I am not satisfied of the durability of the standard version. I have got 3 sprag clutches destroyed by the plastic cage gone into peaces. There have been water ingress into the hub, and the bearings have been bad after few days of riding in autumn humid climate. The grease needed for the bearings is to light.


Aww, I read all 7 pages, convincing myself that I'd found my ideal new singlespeed hubs, and then read this 

The lack of drag or noise sounded ideal, but for a bike being used all through winter in the UK, weatherproofing is pretty important to me. On a rigid SS, maintenance isn't that high on the agenda....

Obviously not going to be put off by a single comment on the internet, although I am keen to know how others have fared in a less than favourable climate.


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## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

I wish I had a longer term review to add, but I've only had mine for months. I ride weekends and have put a good number of dry miles on it. It's only been raining here for a few weeks so I'd say I have several solid winter rain / mud rides on it. I'm terrible at maintenance and put the bike away wet. I haven't opened the hub but I went and spun the wheel and it seems the same as when I got it.

I'm curious about the plastic sprag cage breaking. I hadn't heard about that failure mode. What happens if that part breaks? Pedals spin forward free? Since there's so little anecdotal information about that I take it it doesn't happen much?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

*Soft, spongy engagement.*

A few years ago I chimed into this thread to ask if other Onyx owners had experienced what felt like "soft" engagement.

Turns out it was the combination of an 80+ pound bike, 200# rider, tiny gears, steep grades, fat tires, and perfect traction all at once that made it so noticeable. Sort of a perfect storm.

Not a week has gone by without a potential customer reading this thread and then pinging me to ask _"How bad is it?"_

It _isn't_ bad. Never sad it was, but many chose to take it that way.

This was on my mind this evening while riding some deep, soft snow with my wife. I laced some Onyx hubs for her expedition snowbike this summer, and rode those wheels for the last week+ while she was out of town.

Her first ride on this wheelset was today. She noted (before I had a chance to point it out) that when your rear tire starts to dig in or spin out in _deep_ snow, the un-harsh way the Onyx hub engages means you have a better chance of recovering before the tire buries itself. With a harsh engaging hub the likelihood of digging in is greatly increased.

Append whatever word you want to name this engagement phenomenon. For riding deep, soft, unconsolidated snow I call it "awesome".


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## BareNecessities (Nov 21, 2012)

jpre said:


> I'm curious about the plastic sprag cage breaking.


Me too. I've not read of any other examples of this failure, yet for one person to have it happen three times makes me think something strange is going on with their particular hub.

My bigger concern regarding these hubs is finding a way to purchase them in the UK 

Then deciding on a colour....


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

jpre said:


> I'm curious about the plastic sprag cage breaking. I hadn't heard about that failure mode. What happens if that part breaks? Pedals spin forward free? Since there's so little anecdotal information about that I take it it doesn't happen much?


I have got from my LBS talking with Onyx, that the sprag must have been exposed for some kind if contamination. If it has been, that seems strange for me, it need to be some kind of chemicals? Something I have been washing my cassette with? And why should it get into the hub? But if the bearings get exposed for water, and it also gets humidity inside the hub from the non drive side, what my LBS have found, I will guess other fluids can come into the hub too?

I would not been complaining if it not was for the cost, but one sprag clutch is 80USD :-(

So when I am comparing with my DTSwiss hubs at 1/4 of the price, that is butter smooth after a lot of rain and humid weather this autumn, it gets disappointing to see what happened to the Onyx.


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

At almost 350 lbs, with Eagle gear ratios, hammering sleep climbs, I've yet to decide if I like the way the onyx engages. Similar to Mikesees experience but maybe even more extreme, I can't say it's a deal killer but it's a very different feel. *****Disclaimer, I've heard nothing but positive reviews from lighter riders, if you are 250+ you probably want to test ride a hub first to see if you like the soft engagement.


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## BareNecessities (Nov 21, 2012)

I'm 6'7" and around 230lb. I'd like the hubs to go on a new singlespeed build that I'm planning to use on a 24hr solo race next year. The main selling points of the Onyx to me are the lack of noise & drag. As any singlespeeder knows, you spend a lot of time coasting when you run out of gears, so doing that quietly, with a potential bit of 'free' speed sounds great. I also like the idea of a system that takes a lot of torque, so I don't have to worry about any delicate internals getting smashed while I'm grunting up a steep incline. Fast engagement is good. I'm not fussed about it being instantaneous.

Everything about the Onyx system sounds ideal for my needs, and a worthwhile investment. Reading about larger people than myself putting in a lot of miles on snowbikes has been very encouraging, as I'd really appreciate a hub that can handle adverse conditions over high mileage. I do look after my kit, and have no issue buying the recommended grease, and keeping an eye on things. I guess the main problem is that I suffer quite badly from anxiety, and even the smallest seed of doubt can set the alarm bells ringing.

At this point, I'm probably overthinking things, but I guess a mountain bike forum is as good a place as any to do that


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

mikesee said:


> A few years ago I chimed into this thread to ask if other Onyx owners had experienced what felt like "soft" engagement.
> 
> Turns out it was the combination of an 80+ pound bike, 200# rider, tiny gears, steep grades, fat tires, and perfect traction all at once that made it so noticeable. Sort of a perfect storm.
> 
> ...


Yup, I think a lot of folks will end up liking the softer engagement.

I rode a bit with Jim, the owner, in Aspen BME this summer and pedaled his bike briefly. I can see that it might have advantages as far as starting traction and the power not hitting as abruptly as a std hub, and he also said the energy stored when it winds up is released into the drivetrain so your not losing any energy with the soft engagement. It's also more durable as far as handling torque vs any other option on the market.

No doubt they will be my next set of hubs!


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## glader60 (May 4, 2006)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Actually I am not satisfied of the durability of the standard version. I have got 3 sprag clutches destroyed by the plastic cage gone into peaces. There have been water ingress into the hub, and the bearings have been bad after few days of riding in autumn humid climate. The grease needed for the bearings is to light.


I'd really like to hear if others have had sprag clutch failures. I've been following these hubs for awhile and have not heard of failures so I'm wonder if failures are super rare. I'm 225 lbs and am generally hard on freehubs. Nothing worse than walking out of the woods...


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

glader60 said:


> I'd really like to hear if others have had sprag clutch failures. I've been following these hubs for awhile and have not heard of failures so I'm wonder if failures are super rare. I'm 225 lbs and am generally hard on freehubs. Nothing worse than walking out of the woods...


One data point: I've built several dozen Onyx hubs for customers. I also have 3 in the fleet between my wife and I. The oldest of these date back more than 3 years now.

I have yet to hear a single complaint -- not a peep -- from a single customer.


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## BareNecessities (Nov 21, 2012)

mikesee said:


> One data point: I've built several dozen Onyx hubs for customers. I also have 3 in the fleet between my wife and I. The oldest of these date back more than 3 years now.
> 
> I have yet to hear a single complaint -- not a peep -- from a single customer.


That makes it all the more bizarre that one single owner has somehow had 3 failed sprags. A particular fault with seals on that one hub, allowing it to be easily contaminated?


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I am a large rider at 265lbs and 6'2". I have had issues with every hub I have ever owned (I9, HOPE, Shimano, Chinese hubs, and Onyx too) except for Chris King. Granted CK doesn't make a fat bike hub, so apples to oranges applies. But I have split hub shells on both the I9 and Onyx hubs, and both times the manufacturer said the spoke tension was too high which caused this. I have my doubts about this theory, but I cannot verify what spoke tension was, all I know is they were built by two different experienced builders. 

I had Onyx rebuild my rear wheel with a new hub, and all has been well. I really prefer riding off trails and through dense woods, meaning the hub sees a lot of really quick torque from quick stabs at the pedal when trying to clear tough terrain. Currently running 30t 11-46 with studded wrathchilds.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

jonshonda,
could you post photos of the cracked hub shells, if you still have them around?


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

J. Random Psycho said:


> jonshonda,
> could you post photos of the cracked hub shells, if you still have them around?


Onyx. I misspoke on the Onyx, it was the NDS flange I broke. 








I9


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Thank you!

The Onyx failure looks like what spoke tension causes indeed. Center-to-flange spacing is symmetric on that hub, so it's perhaps the cutouts which contributed to NDS flange breaking ahead of DS.

The I9 failure looks more like its primary cause is torque from the drivetrain.


Do you have to pass areas of salted snow/ice on your rides? Chlorine containing solution getting on stressed parts can be a factor as well.

Are your rims aluminum or carbon? With the former, spoke tension is reduced at temperatures below the point which they were built at; with the latter, it increases. This is thanks to very different thermal expansion coefficients between aluminum, steel, and carbon.


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## Jamie_MTB (Nov 18, 2004)

Source

Spring for the New MTB hubs "These are the disc compatible BMX hubs for our little rippers. MTB version this spring!"


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

I really want to love a set of these hubs. I've just ordered my new rims, if something doesn't happen soon, I think impatience will get the better of me and I'll just buy 240s.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Along the lines of silent hubs, eager to see the scylence hubs in the wild

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Jamie_MTB (Nov 18, 2004)

The new mtb hub will debut at NAHBS

"We will be announcing pre orders very soon"


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bu-7VgzBjxt/


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Jamie_MTB said:


> The new mtb hub will debut at NAHBS
> 
> "We will be announcing pre orders very soon"
> 
> ...


Looking forward to the announcement.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Just built, but not yet in my possession.

157 required, even though I wanted the new version bad, there is no current ETA for the 157 spacing, so I went OG

BrassyGold colour.
DT Comp spokes
DT Brass Nipples
Spank Vibrocore rims @ 29"








Large BlackCherry Knolly Fugitive LT
- RockShox SuperDeluxe RCT Coil at Avalanche.








No idea on weight yet, but I'm thinking about Yamato class - I know they won't be light - but should be well strong for a 135mm trailbike.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

Nice, really cool bike and they did the 157 super boost right... with the ability to go 2.6 29er tires. If I went alloy this would be the bike!! Let us know how you like it!!
Onyx hubs are awesome!!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

compengr said:


> Looking forward to the announcement.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


As am I.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Suns_PSD said:


> As am I.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


What are the trade-offs for the new OHM hub vs the original one? I like the idea of lighter weight, but I do wonder what is being sacrificed.


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## Timothy G. Parrish (Apr 13, 2014)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> What are the trade-offs for the new OHM hub vs the original one? I like the idea of lighter weight, but I do wonder what is being sacrificed.


Me, too. There's no info available on their website yet, and looking at the service videos for the original, there's not much other than cartridge bearings and the clutch in there. Looks like the just reduced the diameter of the non-drive side to use a smaller cartridge bearing?


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

There were a number of differences that were leaked a while back (less sprags, no preload adjuster, different cassette carrier interface...). Don't know which made it into the new design. Rather than speculate, let's wait for the announcement. Shouldn't be much longer. 

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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Let us hope the water resistant is better on the new model. The weight is now more acceptable, but price vs durability (bearing especially) and still not light enough to come close to a DT Swiss 350 hub. I have used DTSwiss 350 for a couple of years now, and Onyx 3 years before that. The Onyx needs more maintenance and if not done properly, you need to change bearings. Yes I need to say that the Onyx rolls smoother and has instant drive mechanism, if you take care of cleaning and greasing the bearings. The reason I think is the light grease that needs to be used, to not compromise the sprag`s. Also you need to use mineral spirit to clean the bearings, otherwise you also will compromise the bearings. So in the end, the DT`s are just so simple and durable, and needs no maintenance. I am not sure what they have done to get it so water resistant and/or having good quality bearings, but I have not had any bearings that is not running smooth.


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

I've not used the Onyx but I'm certainly Onyx curious. This is the first I've heard of them no being good in the water. Is that one persons opinion or common consensus?


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

onzadog said:


> I've not used the Onyx but I'm certainly Onyx curious. This is the first I've heard of them no being good in the water. Is that one persons opinion or common consensus?


Just to add info to the previous. We are 3 riders here in Norway using Onyx. All 3 have the same experience. NOTE that for some parts of the year it could be really wet and muddy conditions. I mean it can be rain for weeks. It gets like small rivers all over the place.

As said before, if you do regular maintenance, and clean/ regrease your bearings, and clean water inside, it will be fine. But if you skip that you might not save the really expensive bearings.


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## Timothy G. Parrish (Apr 13, 2014)

onzadog said:


> I've not used the Onyx but I'm certainly Onyx curious. This is the first I've heard of them no being good in the water. Is that one persons opinion or common consensus?


I've been riding on a set for a few years now. No issues with water, but I also avoid submerging my hubs and bottom bracket in water, on all my bikes, not just this one. Splashing through creeks and puddles hasn't been an issue.


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

I don't submerge mine, but like you, we can have perma-puddles and inches of water on trails for 3 to 6 months of the year. I don't mind a bit of regular maintenance but life is too short to have to strip hubs down after every wet ride.

The fact they're so popular with bike packers and snowy fatbikers made me think they'd be pretty resistant to bad weather.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Let us hope the water resistant is better on the new model. The Onyx needs more maintenance and if not done properly...
> 
> I am not sure what they have done to get it so water resistant and/or having good quality bearings, but...


Better bearing protection can easily be achieved by applying additional (water-proof) grease on the exterior seals of the bearings before re-assembly of the freehub body and the end caps. Add additional grease to the end caps before reinstalling them and you have made significant strides in providing an additional layer of protection. Done properly, you might eliminate your water issues. This is a widely applied water and dust/dirt bearing protection trick that works on almost all bearing based components.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

onzadog said:


> I don't submerge mine, but like you, we can have perma-puddles and inches of water on trails for 3 to 6 months of the year. I don't mind a bit of regular maintenance but life is too short to have to strip hubs down after every wet ride.
> 
> The fact they're so popular with bike packers and snowy fatbikers made me think they'd be pretty resistant to bad weather.


I have had Onyx on my fat bikes, but the Winter is the driest part of the year. Snow is no problem. It is spray from the wheels that is the worst.

Using grease outside bearings, remember to use the approved by Onyx. If you use grease on the 
end caps etc.will probably cause dirt to get stuck, and you can get a grinding paste. So be careful with applying grease.

The reason I used Onyx in the first place, was because of my weight and use was destroying all kinds of hubs. But after trying a DT fat bike wheel set one season, I was surprised of how good it was. Then I built one set for the FS with DT too. The price/weight/durability of them are too good.....


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Using grease outside bearings, remember to use the approved by Onyx. If you use grease on the
> end caps etc.will probably cause dirt to get stuck, and you can get a grinding paste. So be careful with applying grease.


The grease that is on the exterior bearing seal and under the end cap has no effect on the internal function of these hubs. It is for protection only and does NOT have to be Onyx approved. The objective is water protection. You are not applying grease to the exterior of the end caps, but to the inside. Any excessive grease that is pressed out could/should be cleaned off. A little mechanical common sense goes a long way.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Cleared2land said:


> The grease that is on the exterior bearing seal and under the end cap has no effect on the internal function of these hubs. It is for protection only and does NOT have to be Onyx approved. The objective is water protection. You are not applying grease to the exterior of the end caps, but to the inside. Any excessive grease that is pressed out could/should be cleaned off. A little mechanical common sense goes a long way.


Not everyone have mechanical common sense out there. And depending on what kind of grease, if it is teflon content and you are applying only outside bearings, you can end up getting this inside where it should not be. Remember it will rotate and it can go down to the axle. When you take it out you can wipe off some of it against the inside bearing.

But it should not be a problem of you wash everything carefully with mineral spirit.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

You're overthinking a commonly applied technique.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Cleared2land said:


> You're overthinking a commonly applied technique.


Yes I am overthinking, but it is a reason for that. 
Since I want the equipment that is most durable and have as little maintenance as possible for my use.

Riding 5-7 days a week all year, and between 7 to 12 hours each week, and weighing 255, I wear a lot. 
So my goal is to have as little time servicing and as much as possible biking.

Onyx is by far the best rolling and best drive mechanism, and second place when it comes to durability and maintenance.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

Cleared2land said:


> You're overthinking a commonly applied technique.


Total agree...I've been using this technique for years and it works. I use Phil Wood grease. Onyx will tell you if the hubs are totally submerged under water the hub needs taken apart cleaned lubed with proper sprag grease. Using just a bit of water proof greace on outside of bearing seals will not hurt a thing!! Nothing rolls like a Onyx hub but I now have been using DT Swiss 240 hubs and have never needed to replace a bearing and are the lightest, simple design, maintenance free hubs on the market!!


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Has anyone seen any news on the new version of the Onyx mtn hub? I believe they were launching the finished product at NAHBS.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

onzadog said:


> Has anyone seen any news on the new version of the Onyx mtn hub? I believe they were launching the finished product at NAHBS.


Other than what they have circulated on FB and Instagram, no. I believe details of the new design will be made clear during the preorder, which should be happening before end of April. I think. Maybe someone from Onyx could chime in?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Anyone been to Sea Otter? I'd love a detailed breakdown of the differences between the classic and the vesper.


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## jlian (Mar 3, 2008)

onzadog said:


> Anyone been to Sea Otter? I'd love a detailed breakdown of the differences between the classic and the vesper.


I was there Friday and took a picture of what's on Onyx table in its booth. There was no cut-out of the new hub, but you could imagine what the 1.5 sprag should be like compared to the cut-out of the classic shown.









Also learned that the new design of front hub allows Torque end cap with center-lock mount version.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Hoping to order a set of ther new Ontx hubs very soon for a new wheel build. 

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## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

jlian said:


> I was there Friday and took a picture of what's on Onyx table in its booth. There was no cut-out of the new hub, but you could imagine what the 1.5 sprag should be like compared to the cut-out of the classic shown.
> 
> Also learned that the new design of front hub allows Torque end cap with center-lock mount version.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


jlian -- Did the Onyx guys give you any indication on when they are finally going to release the new hub? I called them at the end of March and they said around April 7th for the first boost version with more versions to follow. Still nothing to be found on their web site  ONYX -- TAKE MY MONEY PLEASE!!


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## jlian (Mar 3, 2008)

spec306 said:


> jlian -- Did the Onyx guys give you any indication on when they are finally going to release the new hub? I called them at the end of March and they said around April 7th for the first boost version with more versions to follow. Still nothing to be found on their web site  ONYX -- TAKE MY MONEY PLEASE!!


Yes. First week of May you will be able to order online 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

jlian said:


> Yes. First week of May you will be able to order online
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:thumbsup::cornut: $$


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## Keithyk (Feb 3, 2016)

Any significant difference compare to the old design? From what I see, its only aesthetic and functional wise, it’s the same




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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

My best guess would be smaller bearings and no bearing preload on the new ones. Plus the easy switch freehub which may or may not be backwards compatible. But these are the things I also want to know.


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

NOBL has some info:
https://noblwheels.com/the-all-new-onyx-vesper/

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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Any actual facts yet?


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Boost hubs will be available next week. Everything else will follow. Onyx sent me a spec sheet on the Vesper hubs. A bit surprising to see so many variants.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5cee688a80564/Vesper price dimensions 2019-0424.pdf


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## xmessenger (Aug 13, 2010)

Just got my wheels built up with Onyx!
My Intense Sniper already had great DT Swiss M1700 wheels but I am building my dream bike and wanted something lighter. Odd,I know considering Onyx weight but it was their balance of other features that sold me on the Onyx. The idea of a super robust mechinism, instant engagement and quility bearings put them on top of King or I9.
I went with Nobl wheels, their 28mm 29er carbon with C Xray spokes.
I chose the regular Onyx vs Nobl because I wanted a specific colour, fluorescent yellow. I didn't really want a colour that would match my bike but something that jumped out laced to a rather plain black set of carbon wheels and boy do these jump out. I was tempted to go with their antifreeze colour option but its really popular and wanted something different.
First ride, I noticed mostly how smooth everything felt. I really noticed the engagement when pulling up on my pedal stroke. I have crap cadense and often would feel the clack of engagement spinning into a headwind on my way home but now theres zero times where my pedaling is just wasted, all my energy is being used to drive ahead.
The weight is not a thing. They are center of the wheel and my rim and spokes are really light and efficient which was very apparent on climbs. This was what I was hoping for and it paid off.
Just my initial thoughts. So far very happy.


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## desertwheeler (Sep 1, 2009)

Coming from stock ibis hubs to an onyx rear and holy cow is the difference very noticeable. It picks up speed way faster than ever before. The engagement is badass and the silence is heavenly! I really didn’t think it would be that noticeable, it was a windy ride and I picked up speed even with the headwind better than I remember before. I’m sold for sure!


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## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Just had my Onyx Vesper hubs arrive. The matte black anodized finish looks great. They've turned up with an XDR driver with a spacer on it. Seems a shame that they've given up on flange width just so they can share a shell with the road bikes hubs. Especially odd as its a boost hub and I can't think of any boost road frames.


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## Finescents (Jul 28, 2019)

compengr said:


> Boost hubs will be available next week. Everything else will follow. Onyx sent me a spec sheet on the Vesper hubs. A bit surprising to see so many variants
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
> https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5cee688a80564/Vesper price dimensions 2019-0424.pdf


Thanks for that pdf! I am wondering now if I should buy sooner rather than later- on their website it still lists everything as the regular price including ceramic, versus the price sheet now showing a whopping $160 upgrade for two hubs, and steel bearings standard?


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

onzadog said:


> Just had my Onyx Vesper hubs arrive. The matte black anodized finish looks great. They've turned up with an XDR driver with a spacer on it. Seems a shame that they've given up on flange width just so they can share a shell with the road bikes hubs. Especially odd as its a boost hub and I can't think of any boost road frames.


Center to DS flange is 22.47mm on the Vesper vs 23.2 on DT 350 or White Industries 22.5. Seems ok.

Wow, $215 for a front hub with basic bearings? They must have found a way to put sprag clutches in there. Amazing technology.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Finescents said:


> Thanks for that pdf! I am wondering now if I should buy sooner rather than later- on their website it still lists everything as the regular price including ceramic, versus the price sheet now showing a whopping $160 upgrade for two hubs, and steel bearings standard?


Ceramic bearings are a downgrade.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Schulze said:


> Wow, $215 for a front hub with basic bearings? They must have found a way to put sprag clutches in there. Amazing technology.


Can you say "profit margin"!?


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## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Onyx is free to charge whatever they think their product is worth or what the market will bear. I'm sure they had given pricing some thought before releasing the info. 

Having said that, with their current pricing and somewhat limited distribution (which basically forces the consumer to pay the full retail price), it's a really tough sell. Front or rear, their hubs are very expensive. They are unique, I'll give them that, but worth the price? Doesn't look like I'll get to find out. 

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## B R H (Jan 13, 2004)

Bearing quality has to be up there with CK for those prices. I've never had to replace a bearing in my CK hubs yet. They're about 12 years old with many thousands of miles on them. Replaced the bearing seals after about 10 years because they were drying out.


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## desertwheeler (Sep 1, 2009)

I’m in love with my onyx. The silence and engagement are so nice, the fast rolling is nice too! My dad ran CK’s for years trouble free hopefully this will be the same. I am planning to get a front to match soon.


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## Finescents (Jul 28, 2019)

compengr said:


> Onyx is free to charge whatever they think their product is worth or what the market will bear. I'm sure they had given pricing some thought before releasing the info.
> 
> Having said that, with their current pricing and somewhat limited distribution (which basically forces the consumer to pay the full retail price), it's a really tough sell. Front or rear, their hubs are very expensive. They are unique, I'll give them that, but worth the price? Doesn't look like I'll get to find out.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Thank you gals and guys!

I agree compengr, perhaps I came off a bit harsh. They can absolutely charge any price, and I know I want them for the silent aspect. I am the guy who never wears headphones at the gym, on the bike, I mean I had a Discman back in the day but not much since. So that ripping through the forest silently is cool to me. Boost front and rear, and the wheels should be up to date for at least 2-3 years right? Still strange they sent that pricing to a consumer 2 months ago, but pricing hasn't changed. Perhaps they are working on the website

I think they can compete on the uniqueness factor alone, even at a higher price than Chris King- to niche weirdos like me. But that's me, I'm weird I rode original Paul Components brakes and levers when they came out. Purple> No, silver. Which was even weirder at the time, not to get anodized.

I haven't ridden ceramic bearings yet in BB, hubs but I think everyone can agree they are an option. Lol! We can't all agree with everyone else on durability. Too subjective, so far. I think ceramic bearings in some applications just aren't fully refined/integrated into frames/parts. Like Chris King and Phil Wood being supreme examples of steel ball bearings in a proven frame/ spindle thing design they call the BB, and hubs; maybe there is some new way that the stiffness of ceramic bearings can be applied there that's different.

The constantly evolving bike, I love it. And silent is deadly


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

2.5 years on my Onyx gen 1 hubs and have yet to touch them. Still perfectly silent, no slipping or issues whatsoever. 

I've owned many DT hubs, which are great, but whoever said they don't need maintenance is missing something. I have to grease DT hub ratchets every 4 or 5 rides, or they get really noisy. The red DT grease seems to disintegrate fast in their hubs. It's easy enough to do, but still WAY more maintenance than Onyx, which appears to be virtually maintenance free. And I break hubs at 6'6".


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Nevada 29er said:


> 2.5 years on my Onyx gen 1 hubs and have yet to touch them. Still perfectly silent, no slipping or issues whatsoever.
> 
> I've owned many DT hubs, which are great, but whoever said they don't need maintenance is missing something. I have to grease DT hub ratchets every 4 or 5 rides, or they get really noisy. The red DT grease seems to disintegrate fast in their hubs. It's easy enough to do, but still WAY more maintenance than Onyx, which appears to be virtually maintenance free. And I break hubs at 6'6".


This is not my experience at all. I have 4-5 DT Swiss hubs both Boost and Fatbike, and they are almost maintenance free and almost without any noise at all. They who says Dt Swiss hubs are noisy either have a totally different one or something strange happens with theirs. The DT Swiss mechanism are almost indestructible and if you did want to do no maintenance and just ride, I would be surprised if it did not last anyway. I have switched between XD and shimano driver, between wheels, and been doing really sloppy service of the hubs myself. You get almost no noise to zero noise when you put on the DT grease.

On the other hand, the Onyx has not been so good for me, I have needed to replace sprag clutch on one of them, and I have so far just serviced the bearings, but a lot. My friend did change his bearings.


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## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

Nevada 29er said:


> 2.5 years on my Onyx gen 1 hubs and have yet to touch them. Still perfectly silent, no slipping or issues whatsoever.


I have a longer term opinion now. I've been riding my gen 1 hub nearly every weekend since I got it and have had the same experience as Nevada 29er. It just works all the time needing nothing.

I built up a new bike economically that I've been riding recently and the thing I'm missing most is the Onyx hub and can't wait to be able to afford one to put on that bike too.

It looks like that new gen has been available for a while. Any comments from those who have tried them?


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## Pritchett (May 18, 2005)

jpre said:


> It looks like that new gen has been available for a while. Any comments from those who have tried them?


I have a set of the new Onyx vesper hubs. I've had some intermittent sprague slipping on very steep punchy climbs in the granny gear. The instances of slipping are infrequent, but startling - and completely unacceptable.

Onyx quickly sent a new sprague and some special tools to the company I purchased from. I've been super busy and unable to get my wheel to the shop for a swap. I'll eventually report back. Hopefully with great results.


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> This is not my experience at all. I have 4-5 DT Swiss hubs both Boost and Fatbike, and they are almost maintenance free and almost without any noise at all. They who says Dt Swiss hubs are noisy either have a totally different one or something strange happens with theirs. The DT Swiss mechanism are almost indestructible and if you did want to do no maintenance and just ride, I would be surprised if it did not last anyway. I have switched between XD and shimano driver, between wheels, and been doing really sloppy service of the hubs myself. You get almost no noise to zero noise when you put on the DT grease.
> 
> On the other hand, the Onyx has not been so good for me, I have needed to replace sprag clutch on one of them, and I have so far just serviced the bearings, but a lot. My friend did change his bearings.


I like DT hubs, they are my second favorite, but not indestructible. I have broken 350s, stripped the teeth both on the ratchets and inside the hub body. Sudden hard ratcheting over rocks will eventually wear them out. The higher POE teeth ratchets are less durable than the 24-tooth ratchets.

The hub engagement will start slipping, until one day you're walking your bike home. Don't let it get to that point!


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## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

jpre said:


> It looks like that new gen has been available for a while. Any comments from those who have tried them?


I have an Onyx Vesper on my rear hub. I only have 225mi on it and on XC with some easy single track. So far, not a single hiccup -- no slips, no drag, just lot's of incredible silence.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Knock on wood, Dt hubs have been by far the most durable for me. I am 255lb and put down some watts, and have been destroying the most but Onyx, DT swiss and Chris King. The hope fat bike hubs where an disaster, the boost hub was okay, but no hope hub have had any good bearing durability. 
I have crushed cassettes and crank arms with the Dt Swiss hubs but not destroyed the mecanishn itself. 
Weight, price and durability combined is by far much better then the rest.
Not any close in rolling capabilities as the ceramic on the Onyx, or the totally silence, but still it needs some more care and costs a kidney and weighs a ton.



Nevada 29er said:


> I like DT hubs, they are my second favorite, but not indestructible. I have broken 350s, stripped the teeth both on the ratchets and inside the hub body. Sudden hard ratcheting over rocks will eventually wear them out. The higher POE teeth ratchets are less durable than the 24-tooth ratchets.
> 
> The hub engagement will start slipping, until one day you're walking your bike home. Don't let it get to that point!


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

How is that awesome engagement, when rolling at 13mph?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Bringing back my old thread because I'm finally back on Onyx hubs ...

I took a break at Mike C's suggestion, rode high POE DT Swiss 350's for the past few years, also a great hub, but not in the same ballpark as the Onyx.

So quiet, such immediate engagement, and new pretty colors:


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## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

Perhaps I missed it. Why take a break?


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## TheOtherOne (Jul 27, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> Bringing back my old thread because I'm finally back on Onyx hubs ...


I have a set of wheels built up with Onyx Classic hubs. It's been 6 weeks now since I ordered so hopefully Onyx will be shipping the hubs to my builder soon. Really looking forward to them.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

jpre said:


> Perhaps I missed it. Why take a break?


I was running Onyx wheels on a Fat tandem , a Fatillac, and a Wozo. When I moved south I gave up everything fat, so big quiver change and big hub spacing change, cut costs by going to DT Swiss 350's. I like DT Swiss Stardrive, great hubs, durable, but I'm ready to be back on Onyx.

Onyx is slow to deliver product AND they make mistakes, so be patient, all things in their time. I waited nearly three months for my hubs.


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## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

As an Onyx Vesper owner, was glad to see that Norco has them on their top spec'd 2022 Range C1 (there is a review of the C1 by Pinkbike here).


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

TheOtherOne said:


> I have a set of wheels built up with Onyx Classic hubs. It's been 6 weeks now since I ordered so hopefully Onyx will be shipping the hubs to my builder soon. Really looking forward to them.


I built up a set of wheels earlier this year and ordered an Onyx Classic singlespeed hub for the back wheel. It took 8 weeks for the hub to arrive and have now been riding it for about 3 months. The silence is sweet! I used to think that the Hope Pro 4 hubs on my Honzo were not that loud, but now they sound like a chain saw.


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## TheOtherOne (Jul 27, 2020)

BrianU said:


> It took 8 weeks for the hub to arrive


I ordered my wheels 6 1/2 weeks ago and the builder is still waiting for them. Hopefully they show up in the next week or two. Really looking for to riding them.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

TheOtherOne said:


> I ordered my wheels 6 1/2 weeks ago and the builder is still waiting for them. Hopefully they show up in the next week or two. Really looking for to riding them.


Most of my Onyx orders are arriving between 6 and 8 weeks from date of order.


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## TheOtherOne (Jul 27, 2020)

mikesee said:


> Most of my Onyx orders are arriving between 6 and 8 weeks from date of order.


Thanks. Shouldn't be much longer then.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

VonFalkenhausen said:


> Seriously dude, that shitty website is killing me when I am riding on their hubs. Knowing that they are interwebs bogus really ruins the sweet, sweet smooth and silent rolling with unbelievably instant engagement. What was I thinking when I picked up the phone and talked to their friendly, helpful and knowledgeable makers before ordering? Easily the best hubs I have ever ridden, but I should toss them because of that tragic web experience.


No, because they they are too heavy and have drag if you more than finger tighten the rear end cap? Really. Been on 240S for years and and years. Never an issue plus I don’t drag that boat anchor ever up grade as you do. On your right.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Pedalon2018 said:


> No, because they they are too heavy and have drag if you more than finger tighten the rear end cap? Really. Been on 240S for years and and years. Never an issue plus I don’t drag that boat anchor ever up grade as you do. On your right.


Lol. That was almost 7 years ago, I still have no idea what that finger tight cap thing was all about, and they are still the best hubs I have ever had. I had my original set reshelled for my newest bike, the original sprag internals are still working perfectly with zero attention. The extra weight, which I don't notice, is well worth it for smooth fast bulletproof hubs and features I can't get from DT or I9 or anyone else. I've tried other hubs since and there is no going back. Their website still isn't great, but it has improved quite a bit. Their customer service remains excellent.


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## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

Agree completely with Velodonata. Sprags in my classic are perfect with zero attention as far as I know. I did break the axle once and Onyx offered to warranty it but I didn't bother since it was discovered when I wanted to change the driver from HG to Microspline and the Microspline kit came with an axle anyway.


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