# Hardtail vs FS



## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

Is it just me, or does it seem like the FS folks spend an ornate amount of money for FS and an ornate amount of time getting things right? I ride Fat in New England during the winter and am looking for a new summer bike other than my Fattie, and was considering FS, but for my style of riding in tight, twisty, techy, rocky woods trails that Maine serves up and my propensity to like peddling and climbing, it seems HT makes much more sense to me. I’m old, but not that old (61 and in very good shape). It seems that so many people with FS have a difficult time setting up the suspension and getting them to climb without bouncing which i would find annoying. I like the connected feel of a HT. I love my Fattie, I just need something a little more agile in the summer with slightly slacker geo. At 5’3” 29er seems to be somewhat limited for me. I run into standover issues on my fat bike. I’m thinking something like a Chameleon Mullet. I don’t need speed. Climbing with maneuverability is a must. I would love the idea of FS for added comfort, but I feel it might be a big letdown every time I stomp on it.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Well, I think a lot of people will tell you they spend time setting up their full suspension but once it's set up, they are good to go. And that modern suspension doesn't bob much at all when climbing.

However, I am deciding that I am more of a hardtail rider as I'm much more of a masher than a sit and spinner. I like standing up at times when climbing and do it often on my full suspension, which is only 120/100. I doubt I'll ever go for more travel than that. I currently have two hardtails, both are rigid but one is SS and the other greared. I guess if I was jumping more or doing big drops, I might want more travel on a full suspension, but I'm not.


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

There's a couple of schools of thought here. One is "Hard tails are a young man's game". I disagree, I love my hardtails and don't own a full suspension. But full commitment is required, you can't let your technique or handling take a day off even if you're not feeling 100%, and some days it can beat you up pretty good. I love the rewards of hard tail riding though. You can also mitigate the abuse somewhat with higher volume tires and more compliant frames and bars. Personally I wouldn't want to ride a stiff aluminum frame with smaller tires, for me the performance isn't worth the abuse. But when you find the sweet spot, it is sweet indeed.

The other is to use a short travel bike, keeping it to 100 or at most 120mm, with something like a good DW link setup. They are more sprightly and responsive than longer travel bikes but take the edge off, the other side being more expense, more setup, and more maintenance. They require just a hair less commitment to abuse and technique. Both are good approaches, neither is wrong. After that it's all geometry. 

Good luck and have fun!


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

I am too stupid to properly set up a FS bike and too lazy to maintain one. I also don't feel left behind by technology on my hardtails. I found that I was going too fast for my own good on my FS bikes, so I've gone back to bikes that give me the sensation of higher speed with a lower penalty for error. I'll admit to having a couple of soft tails with 20mm of rear axle travel, but they don't require any fancy setup and little extra maintenance since there is no shock and no pivots:


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## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

sgltrak said:


> I am too stupid to properly set up a FS bike and too lazy to maintain one. I also don't feel left behind by technology on my hardtails. I found that I was going too fast for my own good on my FS bikes, so I've gone back to bikes that give me the sensation of higher speed with a lower penalty for error. I'll admit to having a couple of soft tails with 20mm of rear axle travel, but they don't require any fancy setup and little extra maintenance since there is no shock and no pivots.


It’s kind of where I am at this stage of life. Keep it simple. I like “grab and go”. I’m all about a nice fork. I’ve had an eye for the Stanton Sherpa, but it’s on;y available in medium and with a reach of 440mm, that’s a stretch for me.


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## Mongoguy (Oct 16, 2019)

I took the time to build up a killer titanium ss this season. Running 2.6 tires ect. I also have a super nice Jet 9 RDO that was an absolutely great bike for my riding style and area.
Now that I have a Ti rig I’m thinking of selling my Jet…. The hardtail is a different animal and I’ve truly come to love how it rides! Nothing climbs like a hardtail! It doesn’t beat me to death, it doesn’t need constant adjustments, it’s just ready to hammer out a ride.


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## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

Mongoguy said:


> I took the time to build up a killer titanium ss this season. Running 2.6 tires ect. I also have a super nice Jet 9 RDO that was an absolutely great bike for my riding style and area.
> Now that I have a Ti rig I’m thinking of selling my Jet…. The hardtail is a different animal and I’ve truly come to love how it rides! Nothing climbs like a hardtail! It doesn’t beat me to death, it doesn’t need constant adjustments, it’s just ready to hammer out a ride.


SS has me intrigued.


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## Mongoguy (Oct 16, 2019)

Schmeg said:


> SS has me intrigued.


It’s simple and painful in a good way!


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## Sully151 (Dec 31, 2021)

I guess I’m the scheme of things, at 48, I’m not that old, but I am about to dump my FS for a HT. A steel one at that. I think I like the simplicity and “soul” of a hard tail. I don’t t do a lot of black diamond trails. I just like to ride and be in nature. Twisty, rocky singletrack, but no big drops.


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## lookiel (Nov 13, 2012)

Both are good and fun in their own way, although it’s true suspension is a little bit more fiddly. However if you’re already running a squishy fork and know how to set it up you’ll be fine with a rear shock.
Two things: 
-get a compliant frame if you go hardtail, otherwise you’ll find it harsh, especially coming from a fatty.
-don’t go mullet. Big hoops do better on almost everything except jumping and jibbing and acceleration, 27.5 in the back hangs up on chunk and rolls slower.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

I own and enjoy both but one thing I love about HTs is that like road bikes, once I find a keeper, I will keep it for life. FS bikes are not lifers for me. I don’t know why. Perhaps it’s because of my perception that the linkages become outdated at some point. Or maybe it’s because up to date geo seems to matter more to me on a FS. Or maybe it’s about parts availability. I’m actually not too sure why I feel this way, but I do.

All my FS bikes I have owned have begun to feel “dated” at some point. That feeling has never overcome me with a good HT/rigid, or road bike.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I’ve owned many full suspension bikes and many hardtails, and definitely have not experienced “needing to fiddle” with the suspension all the time on my full suspension bikes. I’ve simply dialed it in after the first few rides and then it’s good to go. I may make minor adjustments to rebound and compression depending on the character of a trail, but that’s it. 1-2 clicks on the dials and that’s it.

I do feel like we’re in a golden age for hardtails. The geo has finally caught up to the DH/FR/enduro bikes and they are insanely capable because of it. I ride all the same double-black features and trails on my Honzo ESD that I do on my enduro bike — just a tad slower is all.

At your height I would hesitate to go full 29”, unless your trails are pretty tame/not steep. Otherwise you’ll be making contact with your rear tire quite often.


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## jonyferr (Feb 11, 2021)

I have both: a hardtrail and a full suspension bike with 100mm travel. Both have done enduro and downhill track while doing 50km ride. I keep the full suspension bike mainly because I need 2 bikes and the FS was super cheap. I would spend the same to trade it for another hardtrail.

Personally, I prefer the hardtrail bike. Way lower maintenance (shock, bushings, bearings...) and gives me a bigger thrill on the descends. May have to do with my BMX and dirt jump past.

There are a few very specific obstacles where a full suspension is faster while descending. Most of the time I feel the bike is doing all the work and I just need to point it to where I want it to go. Funny experience on the first rides but becomes dull later. You will feel tempted to go for more demanding tracks (like I did with DH tracks) which can be dangerous in case of a crash.
For me, they are not worth the extra price and service time/cost I have to put compared to my hardtrail.

I think a lot of people have full suspensions bikes to try to compensate their lack of technique. I prefer to read the terrain, know where to brake and manage my pedal stroke to keep traction on difficult areas. If you are happy with your HT, keep riding it.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

I am not aware of FS riders spending a lot of time "fiddling" with suspension settings. There really isn't a lot of different settings. Start with the factory recommended setting and after the first ride, you make minor changes and you are good. The benefit of having a rear suspension is to keep the tire planted over rough terrain. Hit a bump on a HT and the entire bike/rider goes up and must come down. With a rear suspension, the tire comes down quicker to keep power to the ground. Watch a dirt bike rear suspension over rough surfaces.


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

Pump it up to the correct sag and that's good for months, if not longer. Set the rebound dampening at the manufacturers recommendation and you probably won't be too far off. That's a couple of rides worth of work. Maybe a few if you start messing with volume reducers. Sure, you can go crazy and get really meticulous if desired. I own the spectrum from a HT to a 160/170 enduro bike. The enduro bike climbs great and you don't feel it bouncing. Not trying to talk you out of a HT; just that your arguments really apply more towards FS from 10+ years ago.


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Inordinate, not ornate.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Schmeg said:


> Is it just me, or does it seem like the FS folks spend an ornate amount of money for FS and an ornate amount of time getting things right?


This hasn't been the case for me.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

looks easy from here said:


> Inordinate, not ornate.


Then again, I have seen a few high priced bikes I would consider ornate.


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## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

cookieMonster said:


> I’ve owned many full suspension bikes and many hardtails, and definitely have not experienced “needing to fiddle” with the suspension all the time on my full suspension bikes. I’ve simply dialed it in after the first few rides and then it’s good to go. I may make minor adjustments to rebound and compression depending on the character of a trail, but that’s it. 1-2 clicks on the dials and that’s it.
> 
> I do feel like we’re in a golden age for hardtails. The geo has finally caught up to the DH/FR/enduro bikes and they are insanely capable because of it. I ride all the same double-black features and trails on my Honzo ESD that I do on my enduro bike — just a tad slower is all.
> 
> At your height I would hesitate to go full 29”, unless your trails are pretty tame/not steep. Otherwise you’ll be making contact with your rear tire quite often.


THIS^^^^^. I get this frequently with my Fatty. It’s a 27.5 and with 4.5 tires it’s not uncommon to get some heal rub during the least opportune times. I understand why. You can on;y cram so much wheel/tire on such a small frame, which is why I lean toward smaller wheels. Yes there is a rollover disadvantage. But from a Practical standpoint, 29’er is a bit sketchy on my frame size which is why many manufacturers do t offer them on small frames.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

I do prefer the quickness of my Chisel HT, seems better at making power go to forward momemtum. Granted, my FS is a dated 04 Specialized FS, 26" that weighs 30 lbs, while my HT is 26.5, and I notice that. If if rode terrain that had any rock gardens or technical features I would use a FS As I'm 66 and do not desire to get beat up. As I'm riding mostly dirt ST with only logs to roll over, an HT works great. New geometry also sees my HT climb much better than my FS. I do desire a new FS, but am having a hard time finding a 29" in a 26-27 lbs weight range, eveything is 30 lbs and I refuse to pay $5000 for a carbon at that weight.


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## maynard4130 (May 12, 2019)

I’m all about a slack hardtail with wide rims and tires (30-35mm/2.5-2.6), a nice plush fork (140 pike myself) and of course a dropper. Plenty capable IMO. Of course I’ve never owned a FS so I don’t know what I don’t know….


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

I ride two rigid singlespeeds, a Unit and Karate Monkey, and a geared HT, a Honzo. The majority of the people I ride with are on FS and I got to say that I they just seem to ride them hard, rarely messing with them. In fact, I have never seen anyone I ride with having issues. I have no doubt that they spend more time with preventive maintenance, but never a compliant on the trail. I owned a 2003 Giant VT1 many years ago and think what goldsbar posted about FS 10+ years ago is on the money. I love a good HT, also really happy to see how HT design has progressed and I have been lusting after a Pipedream Sirius, but the newer FS rigs I see some of my friends riding has caught my eye and I have tried several.

It is interesting to read about differences between FS and HT. I went for about a 13 year rigid SS only period, before building up my Honzo. I have found that with the longer typical 120-140mm travel forks on HTs, they have more in common with FS as far as riding style, than rigid vs HT. When I first starting riding my Honzo, with out of the saddle efforts when climbing, it felt like half my energy was going into that front suspension fork. I eventually learned to smooth that out, just like my friend when doing the same thing on his Trance.


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## KAH101 (10 mo ago)

I’ve only ridden hardtail MTBs for 25years.

After jumping off my road bike w/700x23s at 120psi—a hardtail feels plush to me.

My belief is that it depends on what type of riding you do. I ride mostly single track, trails, rural roads, and enjoy the hills. If I lived in the mountains or did more downhill or tough terrain—perhaps an FS would be on my list.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

I’m 49, 5’5” & like you, I’m in New England -way down in western MA but most likely similar enough terrain. I’ve got a fattie, an fs xc bike, ss hard tail & a gravel bike. For me, I like to ride a lot & if I only rode hard tail on trails, I’d be too beat up to ride as much as I like to. The fs bike doesn’t really require for more maintenance than the others & that bike flat out flies on our terrain. It’s an Orbea Oiz 120 frnt travel & 110 rear. I’m a masher so any fs bike needs a rear lock out, which I use frequently on moderate hills. If it’s real steep, I’m in the saddle spinning though. If I were you, I really wouldn’t limit my mtb to fat & hard tail. An fs bike may keep you on the trails more often than a hard tail does.


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## Mk3Rider (Dec 7, 2008)

This is my 5th trip to the Bentonville AR area. First three trips were on a 100/80mm 29er, last year was on a 150/140 29er on 2.6/2.4s. This year I brought my steel hardtail Sir9 with 27.5 x2.8s on i30 carbon wheels. Dhf/dhr2 setup. This has been the most fun riding I've ever done here.

Climbing is a breeze, the rocky chunk here and there is easy with the bigger tires. Comfort has been excellent. Pedalling efficiency is a thing. Day three and we are 65 miles in so far with out any fatigue. The old lady is riding a similar setup on an all city electric queen with out issue.

I have considered parting out my fs bike for something designed around a 140mm fork and fits 29 x 2.6s in the rear. Have no interest is riding any of the "down country" trend. Really enjoy the historical xc trails.


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## the-ninth (Nov 1, 2013)

Adding the modern and aggressive Pole Taival hardtail to my stable has been enriching, I like the simplicity and direct feel. However, even at only 43 years old, my lower back has always been my weakness, and the hardtail likes to point that out every occasion it can. Mellow flow trails and slow, technical terrain is fine, but the fast and rough stuff remains the hunting ground of the full suspension.

I was surprised how little the difference is in climbing efficiency is, with the same tires and also otherwise similar setup, the difference is barely noticeable to me. Only shows how good full suspension bikes have become in that department, even the long travel ones like my RAAW Madonna.


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## knl2stl (Jan 7, 2011)

At least we now know how Trifox would answer this question.


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## mtbfoo (Aug 26, 2019)

Never had issues or tweaked things up...you do 25-30% sag with "Everything open" and then 20% into the rebound clicks from "fast", you ride it, if it is jumpy you add some rebound dampening, if slow you remove. Same with FS, same with HTs.

If we start nit-picking this and that, every argument against FS can be made against HTs and you should ride rigid (gravel bikes @ mild blues & greens are actually very fun!). 

I personally moved away from an aggressive & long HT (Torrent HT) keeping just my 150/140 FS that climbed almost just as good as the 150 HT, and got a gravel bike for my +1 to get diversity of experiences + make local easy singletracks exciting again. Did not regret it. 

Perhaps a full carbon XC MTB would be faster all-around on most singletracks, but for the $, that used '21 Trek Checkpoint ALR I got is great, weighs @ 23lbs and I would recommend it as an experience to people looking for something different. If I was to get another HT, I would get a short-travel 29 one flirting with XC/Trail, like the new Team Marin or a Neuhaus Metalworks 29er if middle life crisis starts early =). 

For real gnar, FS. For responsive fun, short travel HT or Gravel.


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## #/er (Apr 4, 2021)

Hardtail if the noise from linkage is unbearable and if it works for your terrain and body.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Mk3Rider said:


> I have considered parting out my fs bike for something designed around a 140mm fork and fits 29 x 2.6s in the rear. Have no interest is riding any of the "down country" trend. Really enjoy the historical xc trails.


What do you consider the downcountry trend? especially when you are talking about building up something that's 140mm / 29x2.6? That's pretty solid downcountry. Except the fork travel is a little high.


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## Mk3Rider (Dec 7, 2008)

cassieno said:


> What do you consider the downcountry trend? especially when you are talking about building up something that's 140mm / 29x2.6? That's pretty solid downcountry. Except the fork travel is a little high.


Too slack, too long and too low.

Looking for a fast flick from a steeper head angle (68deg range) and overall corning traction that comes with wider tires. Chasing time is made up in the corners and the climbs. I just tested out some 29 x 2.8's on i40's for my rocky mountain suzi q last night rigid. The razor sharp handling on a winding dirt single track is amazing. The width of the tires provide excellent cornering traction and the larger diameter is providing the angular momentum I am looking for to negate deviations in the trail surface. Hopefully will install my suspension fork once this next snow storm passes.

Last week we did 118miles logged over 5 rides in Bentonville (Coler / Slaughter Pen / Traverse) on steel hardtails setup 27.5 x 2.8. Two of the rides were in the 40+ mile range. Niner Sir 9 and an All City Electric Queen both with 120mm forks. Perfect comfort all week. Just not seeing the need for FS bikes for the more XC oriented rides we do. I also never felt in over my head anywhere.


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## nomadsurfer (12 mo ago)

FS from 20 years ago…. Lol that’s me and My Ibex Ignition🤪

BUT I still beat the tar out of it and it only asks for a wash and lube. I spent about 30 minutes figuring out where I wanted the (tiny) rear travel and adjusted the fork. It looks dated, and I'm sure most riders think it is a Walmart bike. But since I tuned it up, I just grab and go, no fussing with suspension. I even keep up with my friends on their big money bikes.

I also ride a 2010 Rock Hopper 26er with 2.0 tires, converted to discs and 1x8 which I love. It feels like a big bmx to me, and the skinny tires make it even more lively. Although I will be going a little wider when these wear out for a little more float over sand/mud. I can do all the trails I want with this, and only feel limited by my fitness level at the moment.

I have less than $250 into either bike including purchase, possibly both since all I did to the Ibex was swap tires.

it’s fun having both. I ride each one equally in terms of mileage. I do find that even with the limited travel of the Ibex, I spend more time in the saddle than the HT when it gets rough. But, I like to stand at times, it adds to the fun of the trail and the HT just seems to respond faster to input. It's probably in my mind.

I guess my point is the used bike market it full of bargains if you're not afraid to do a little DIY, and you could find a used FS to try without spending a fortune to see if you like it.

When or if my Ibex dies, I will probably strip it and build up a Fisher G2 Wahoo fame I have lying around. Unless I come across another cheap old FS 26er to beat on....


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## canyoneagle (Sep 27, 2007)

Hardail through and through here, in fact fully rigid with 29x2.8 is my sweet spot. I don't even like how front shock forks feel (and I've ridden some "nice" ones) - just not my jam.

I grew up on hardtail (first bike was a Ross Mt. Whitney in 1986) after been a road cyclist since the late 70's. Back then, suspension did not exist, so riding skills (crouched cat position out of the saddle for techy stuff, etc) evolved accordingly. So, my riding style is heavily influenced from those roots.
I prefer flowy singletrack with some rocks/chunk/tech mixed in for good measure. I can't cruise through the tech as fast as I would on a FS but at 55 I prefer to follow the natural line at a somewhat more methodical pace.
I also prefer functional simplicity over complexity. I do my own wrenching, build my own wheels, etc, and just prefer the KISS method wherever possible. For the same reason, I prefer my Paul Klamper mechanical brakes over hydraulic options. I get 95% of the performance and modulation without having to deal with hose fittings, seals and bleeding.

So, after many years and many bikes (mainly hardtails or fully rigid), I have found the 29+ fully rigid setup to be my jam.


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## Schmeg (Nov 2, 2021)

canyoneagle said:


> Hardail through and through here, in fact fully rigid with 29x2.8 is my sweet spot. I don't even like how front shock forks feel (and I've ridden some "nice" ones) - just not my jam.
> 
> I grew up on hardtail (first bike was a Ross Mt. Whitney in 1986) after been a road cyclist since the late 70's. Back then, suspension did not exist, so riding skills (crouched cat position out of the saddle for techy stuff, etc) evolved accordingly. So, my riding style is heavily influenced from those roots.
> I prefer flowy singletrack with some rocks/chunk/tech mixed in for good measure. I can't cruise through the tech as fast as I would on a FS but at 55 I prefer to follow the natural line at a somewhat more methodical pace.
> ...


We sound much alike. Where we diverge is suspension fork. I have one rigid FB, and one with a nice fork. As well as I like the rigid for its advantages, my shoulders can only take so much. I’m going to go checked out a built up SIR9 and see how it fits. I may be ordering a bare frame and build it up the way I want. The Paul Klampers intrigue me.


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