# sleep ?? nap ??



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Maybe we can share our experiences.
Ok, here is mine.
Last 28 years i focussed on health and happiness, so small income, lots of free time. 
Last 7 years kind of living like an animal. Rarely using a watch, very rarely using an alarm clock. I am tired, i sleep/nap. No coffee nor sugar boost. 
I wake up smiling like a baby, happy.
I have definely proven that the 7-8 hours needed sleep is not the way.
I think it is the handcuffs.
We are trained to regular hours in school, to fallow the pattern as an employee.
Doctors have made money the last 70 years and my mom is still sick so i do not trust them.
I have time to pedal, listen to the birds singning before sunrise.
You probably guessed it i live by myself. When my mom dies, yes that is a benefit, when we do not care about $$ we can take care of our old parents, i would need to move to a community without clock to find a partner i guess.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

You are definitely the exception to the rule I'd say! So, you take naps instead of sleeping for multiple hours if I'm reading it correctly?


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Does she not sleep well? Causing you to lose sleep?

Up to this point, I gave my Mom zero medication, (dementia) the only meds I give her are tranquility, and laughter. However, her "sleeping" patterns have drastically changed. My g/f convinced me to give my Mom some meds to help her rest better. It has helped, a lot!

No naps for me, both because I don't like them, and I really can't nap if she is up and about.

I'm happy with 6/7hrs of solid sleep.

It's tough to be a caregiver, and take care of yourself, but you need to do it.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

I lost a bit of respect for the thread when reading that doctors can't be trusted.

Then I lost total respect when OP says his mothers death will be a benefit. Maybe I am misreading and he means that his mother is living in pain, in which case, I apologize.


I think OP has other issues unrelated to sleep. Something about the initial post doesn't sound nap related as the subject line would suggest.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Varies widely... I have a high "brain demand" job in IT (no after hours or weekend work required). Used to sleep like a stone when I was younger. Now I up a couple of times each night for 10 - 60 minutes.

I do not need 7-8 hours of sleep every night and find naps of ~30 mins on occasion to be quite effective/helpful. I tend to got to sleep consistently ~11 pm and wake up anytime from 4:30-5:30 and less often 6:00-7:00 or so... no alarm required.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

There have been lots of new studies on sleep in recent years and they all stress the importance of ~8 hours of sleep per night, and even an hour less is pretty detrimental. Cognitive health in particular seems to suffer, and there are strong links to mental disorders and lack of enough sleep. It seems like consistency is important too. I don't think naps can supplement for extended sleep periods.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Forest Rider said:


> I lost a bit of respect for the thread when reading that doctors can't be trusted.
> 
> Then I lost total respect when OP says his mothers death will be a benefit. Maybe I am misreading and he means that his mother is living in pain, in which case, I apologize.
> 
> I think OP has other issues unrelated to sleep. Something about the initial post doesn't sound nap related as the subject line would suggest.


The benefit from not hoping for a large income is the last 6.5 years i have not worked, just helping them, now her. Meal-snack = 2 words for same thing, eating. If i eat, i eat no need to label it. Same for nap/sleep. 
Who knows if the moon is involved?
Those large numbers of people sleeping 7-8 hrs are not all waking up smiling.
She says she is being kept alive way too long.
After 65 years with her husband she is one of those who say they should have died together. She lost her sight and her list of health issue is long.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

33red said:


> The benefit from not hoping for a large income is the last 6.5 years i have not worked, just helping them, now her. Meal-snack = 2 words for same thing, eating. If i eat, i eat no need to label it. Same for nap/sleep.
> Who knows if the moon is involved?
> Those large numbers of people sleeping 7-8 hrs are not all waking up smiling.
> She says she is being kept alive way too long.
> After 65 years with her husband she is one of those who say they should have died together. She lost her sight and her list of health issue is long.


I am sorry to hear that. Much better perspective and appreciation.
Thank you.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

In my opinion, taking care of one's aging parent/sibling(s), is more of a privilege than a duty. Although, it is a duty as well.
I'm a bit confused about the wording of the OP's posts. Meal or snack or nap or sleep...I'm not sure what you are saying.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

33red said:


> Maybe we can share our experiences.
> 
> Doctors have made money the last 70 years and my mom is still sick so i do not trust them.
> I have time to pedal, listen to the birds singning before sunrise.
> You probably guessed it i live by myself. When my mom dies, yes that is a benefit, when we do not care about $$ we can take care of our old parents, i would need to move to a community without clock to find a partner i guess.


Your lifestyle seems outside of what works well for most.

Doctors do make money. They make mistakes too. Even with a bad mistake, I'm sure my spouse is better off having gone with doctors for cancer. I know I'm here and better off thanks to doctors.

My nephew makes more than most doctors. His team does the most challenging surgery scenarios at a level 1 trauma and regional cancer treatment center. His very high compensation seems okay when I think of celebrities and some executives. He's described his team as "We say WTF, how are we going to do this?" but they save many of those extremely damaged and ill people. I'll guess that most people are fine with that.

I am not without any empathy or understanding. I did the whole marriage and kids thing late and remember much different routines when I was single and also when I worked all hours. Naps can help me but I'm also convinced a move to far more conventional life style was a huge boost.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

bitflogger said:


> Your lifestyle seems outside of what works well for most.
> 
> Doctors do make money. They make mistakes too. Even with a bad mistake, I'm sure my spouse is better off having gone with doctors for cancer. I know I'm here and better off thanks to doctors.
> 
> ...


I had a lump on my left breast over 25 years ago.
I had read about it.
I fasted 29 days, it disappeared and over 25 years later still not back.
I will never know what it was, no so called expert was invited to diagnose it.
At 6 feet, i went down to 103 pounds. Stayed there 6 days eating a tomato one day, a sweet pepper the next, a cucumber the next. I started eating a meal a day, than back to 135.
I agree occasionally doctors do help.
They are not my first option generaly.
A doctor said the reason 911 was called and my dad went to the hospital was his doctor prescribed him a risky medication without first checking if it was safe.
If the **normal lifestyle** works so well why a pharmacy every street corner? so many clinics??
A teenager from Australia who went around the world sailing said the happiest healthy people she saw were dirt poor so no rich doctor was involved. I am sure they have no watch, no alarm clock.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

33red said:


> I had a lump on my left breast over 25 years ago.
> I had read about it.
> I fasted 29 days, it disappeared and over 25 years later still not back.
> I will never know what it was, no so called expert was invited to diagnose it.
> ...


I'm not sure you'd want a logical fallacy crib sheet or accept any learning about epidemiology and demographics even if some of us took the time.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

bitflogger said:


> I'm not sure you'd want a logical fallacy crib sheet or accept any learning about epidemiology and demographics even if some of us took the time.


I feel the same about this thread. I'd prefer to rely on medical advice over risky guesswork when it comes to the health and well-being of my family or me.


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## fredcook (Apr 2, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> There have been lots of new studies on sleep ... and there are strong links to mental disorders and lack of enough sleep.


I've read the same about the link between the two, but I wonder if it's lack of sleep that causes mental disorders, or is do mental disorders cause lack of sleep?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I treat sleep problems in ~ 2/3 of my clients, there lots of causes for poor sleep, some are lifestyle, lots of worried folks, a few apnea cases, some are just "I can't sleep". 

I have a few tough cases where they struggle to get even a few hours of rest, some sleep too much and still don't feel rested.

What we know about sleep is that we need it as much or more than good nutrition.

Poor sleep can worsen mood and anxiety, lead to chronic health conditions, even raise BP and blood sugar.

I prescribe a fair number of sleep aids, but I always talk to client about sleep hygiene, sleep patterns, and sleep restriction.

In my experience, the worst thing about poor sleep is not feeling tired, but the increase in anxiety that comes from what the typical person does while lying awake in bed: Thinking.

To put it bluntly, thinking is bad for you, esp when that thinking serves no practical purpose, such as worrying about things you can't change: the past, the present, the future.

What works for one person won't necessarily work for another, but in general, most people do not sleep enough or the sleep they get is not of good quality.

All things in moderation, extremes do not do a body good 

Personally, I go to bed at 10:30, fall asleep within fifteen minutes, get up to pee twice a night, out of bed between 6-630, at work by 8 M-Th, wake and sleep the same regardless of holiday, season, work or no work.

Sleep restriction: If you're not truly falling asleep in fifteen to twenty minutes, get out of bed, do something non stimulating, then try to fall asleep again after a thirty minutes.

Sleep hygiene: Have a pattern and maintain that pattern, avoid stimulation before bed (media, emotional, etc..), don't use your bed as a couch or as an office office. A bed is for sleeping and sex, period, end of subject 

Everyone has the occasional problem with falling asleep and staying asleep, it's the chronic insomnia that causes problems. Sleep can change as we age, not always for the worse.

Edit: Sleep apnea can be the cause for poor sleep, daytime fatigue, etc ... good to rule it out before taking sleep aids, just saying.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

nurse ben said:


> what works for one person won't necessarily work for another, but in general, most people do not sleep enough or the sleep they get is not of good quality.
> All things in moderation, extremes do not do a body good


Routine and consistency sure seem to be the rule more than the exception in my opinion.

It seems to me the OP situation is a bit off the charted territory though and I understand how or why one might want to throw in the towel on some 'norms'. Stressing income and all the 'accepted' measures of life and life-style including a hyper sensitive relationship to the tic-tock sounds like striving for the carefree and footloose life, No Worries-Be Happy. The narrative suggests that to a degree yet the reality in my world for picturing a parental caregiver is someone who has whole new set of stressors. Timing for patient meds or nutrition needs a clock. Sleeping with any consistent schedule might be nearly impossible in some cases so adapting and napping is important and maybe not really much of a choice. 
I can see the lure of no longer focusing on career and income because we have to pick our battles and there is only so much time or energy for a given priority. Other things need to take a back seat or play second fiddle.

Making the best of it can be mostly about attitude and it sounds to me like 33red is doing just that more than preaching to us we need to fire our Doctor, fast twice a month and give away our money.


33red said:


> i agree occasionally doctors do help.
> They are not my first option generaly.
> A doctor said the reason 911 was called and my dad went to the hospital was his doctor prescribed him a risky medication without first checking if it was safe.
> If the **normal lifestyle** works so well why a pharmacy every street corner? So many clinics??
> A teenager from australia who went around the world sailing said the happiest healthy people she saw were dirt poor so no rich doctor was involved. I am sure they have no watch, no alarm clock.




Yep, Doctors make mistakes and people get trapped under water in cars with seat belts on. Still, there's a message there that isn't terribly hard to prove or dig up when playing the odds.

Pharmacy's are on every corner because they are busy. We are 300 million people strong and muchly, eating, drinking or smoking things we shouldn't and being too stubborn or carefree to make changes for the better per healthy life style, low stress and good thoughts. We don't really need to run to the Doc 3 times a year to tell us this, We need the Dr to kick our a-- into submission !


​
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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

I don't trust doctors either. Not at the GP level anyway. Once you get past them you might have a chance but GPs are like bad car mechanics who are in cahoots with the parts suppliers getting a cut off every part they fit.

I work beside a guy who only sleeps about two hours a night. He is a grumpy b*****! ;0)


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Mr Pig said:


> I don't trust doctors either. Not at the GP level anyway. Once you get past them you might have a chance but GPs are like bad car mechanics who are in cahoots with the parts suppliers getting a cut off every part they fit.
> 
> I work beside a guy who only sleeps about two hours a night. He is a grumpy b*****! ;0)


What amazes me is that people are more likely to "trust" their untrained instinct or something they read or hear about than the advice of a trained professional, but hey, humans will be humans.

I'd sooner hear the advice of a "bad doctor" than the advice of an internet guy who lives in his mother's basement and goes by the name of "Chuck".

More than anything, I'd like to see people take responsibility for the poor choices they made in their youth than look for a person to blame who is tasked with making those decisions "bearable".

Being a primary care provider is the most difficult job in the medical profession. As a PCP you are responsible for all medical conditions, all the time, and you have anywhere from three to five minutes of assessment time, then there's the charting, billing, prescribing, referrals, labs, reviewing past notes, reviewing labs, calling the client back, calling the lab because they didn't seen/complete the labs, calling the ER because they didn't pay attention to your emergency admission note, calling the client when the labs point to something concerning, etc...

Your average PCP makes half or less than half of what a specialist makes, but works twice as hard, and works twice as much, so there's no wonder the burn out rate is so high in primary care.

A suggestion: next time you meet with your GP, try thanking them for their service.

As for all the folks who don't trust/respect primary care: No one cares


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Should doctors not make money? Where the heck does that sentiment come from?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> A suggestion: next time you meet with your GP, try thanking them for their service.


I thought they got paid? In the UK, quite a lot of money actually. And still they guess what might be wrong with you.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Mr Pig said:


> I thought they got paid? In the UK, quite a lot of money actually. And still they guess what might be wrong with you.


Don't they have tests in the UK?


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> I treat sleep problems in ~ 2/3 of my clients, there lots of causes for poor sleep, some are lifestyle, lots of worried folks, a few apnea cases, some are just "I can't sleep".
> 
> I have a few tough cases where they struggle to get even a few hours of rest, some sleep too much and still don't feel rested.
> 
> ...


Thats good stuff. All true, especially keeping the routine going. Also, if anyone has a photo of a 6" tall 103 lb person please post it.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Mr Pig said:


> I thought they got paid? In the UK, quite a lot of money actually. And still they guess what might be wrong with you.


My wife reminded me years ago; It's called *medical practice* or *practicing medicine *(I assume, for a reason). :thumbsup:

She manages a private practice family Dr ofc with 4 providers.

This below is the theme every day by providers dealing with the complexities and reality of how things are done, get done or Don't.

_Being a primary care provider is the most difficult job in the medical profession. As a PCP you are responsible for all medical conditions, all the time, and you have anywhere from three to five minutes of assessment time, then there's the charting, billing, prescribing, referrals, labs, reviewing past notes, reviewing labs, calling the client back, calling the lab because they didn't seen/complete the labs, calling the ER because they didn't pay attention to your emergency admission note, calling the client when the labs point to something concerning, etc...

__Your average PCP makes half or less than half of what a specialist makes, but works twice as hard, and works twice as much, so there's no wonder the burn out rate is so high in primary care.
_
It's not an opinion when you see it, experience it and have spouse that works in the biz 25 years strong.​​


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Your average PCP makes half or less than half of what a specialist makes, but works twice as hard, and works twice as much, so there's no wonder the burn out rate is so high in primary care.


Not to mention they have to compete with people thinking that "hashing things out" on a facebook support group is the same thing as real medical knowledge.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

And not to mention WEB MD where we all become experts so we can argue with our Doctor.... 😁


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