# Seat over handlebars?



## Surfacecreations (Sep 8, 2011)

I've seen a couple posts in here referring to having your seat up past your handlebars. Apparently if the seat is below them, you are a noob. I have a 16"(small) frame and my inseam is 31.5- 32". I am 5'9.5. I bought the smaller frame so I could manhandle it better and also the standover left me a couple inches to keep from banging anything around. It has been drilled into my head about standover not mattering in here but my old med. frame matched this new sm. one so I wanted to feel comfortable to the old frame I became accustomed to. Now presently I have my seat post extended to exactly the right height for the most efficient pedal stroke. The seat is exactly the same height as my handlebar. When I first got the bike I had it lower but every ride I would add a half inch or so until it was extended for my best pedal stroke. I didn't just push it right up there as it felt weird at first. 

So I keep seeing pictures in here and elsewhere with the seat well below the bars. Isn't it possible that this is the right height for that individual? Maybe they ride extra bumpy terrain and want the seat down permanently or maybe it just feels better to be lower in the bike. Is this a no compromise situation with the seat being at least handlebar height? Is it a guarantee that if the bike seat is not at least at handlebar then you are on the wrong size bike? I was even pondering if I had bought a medium frame or even large, wouldn't the seat be at the same height as it is right now with the small frame from the ground. If the size of the frame refers to the crank center to seat post clamp then doesn't it just mean the top tube is just at a higher position in relation to the crank and the actual seat position? I hope those two last sentences make sense as I can't think of any other way to explain it. 

It all really doesn't pertain to meany more at this point as I have mine up there now but it bothered me for a while when I tried to figure out why people complained about it in here. Maybe this could enlighten some new riders when the pros weigh in on this.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

It wasn't so long ago that the mark of a good biker was a big drop from seat to bars, and it wasn't so long before that when you used to size your Schwinn as the largest you could barely stand over. 

The only thing that's important is that you're comfortable on the bike when you're riding. If anyone makes any contrary post for the rest of this topic, ignore it immediately. 

Now, there's some things that a bike can do better or worse when the seat drop is above or below, but if you aren't noticing it then you're fine. Someday you'll get curious about different bikes, and maybe you'll find you like a different fit that works better for your riding at some future time but for now don't stress if the bike fits. If you're having a sore back, hands, wrists, neck or something else, well then that's a problem; but you're not mentioning it so I'll assume it's not an issue.

Go ride your bike.


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## jetboy23 (Jun 14, 2011)

Depends on the type of riding your doing. If you are pedaling for cross country, single track, hill climbs then you want the seat to be high enough to not lock out at the bottom of your stroke. About a 20-25 degree bend. If that is at handlbar height and confortable, good. If you like all mountain or downhill, you may opt for a seat a bit lower than your handlebars and more leg bend because manuvering over the cockpit is more important than pedalling efficeincy. You want the seat low enough to be able to get back and low in the steeps and hover well above the seat in the rough. XC racers will setup thier bikes with lower handlebars that the seat to get into an aero possition and crank the pedals a bit more like on a road bike. 

In short, ride your bike how you feel most comfortable. Thats why there are so many options. Frame size, crank length, riser bars, flat bars, stem angle, stem length, saddle tilt, saddle width, and even wheel size. You could pay for a fitting as well and they will take into account the type of riding you will do and fit your accordingly. Enjoy the ride.


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

Don't know where to start with this, I'm 6' with a 32 inseam I ride either a large or a medium. When I first started mountain biking my stems were 2 to 3 " below the seat . I was younger, that was more the style .As I got older my stems got shorter and higher . Now that is the style. Now they are even. All that being said there is a right height for your seat, where your bars are is for you to decide.That depends on what type of riding you are doing ,if you are riding on flat to mild trails a more upright riding style is fine ,if you are doing something else you might want to change to something less upright. The lower bars are best position for cross country racing if you are not racing then go with what you like.


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## Shalom (Nov 7, 2008)

Don't worry. It is more about comfort and the riding position that you are wanting to attain. By having a drop from seat to bar, it provides a more aggressive riding position, placing more weight over the front wheel. Predominantly used by cross country racers.

As mountain biking has evolved, and the riding level has increased, things have gotten a lot more relaxed as far as position goes. Also frame geometry.

Anyway, don't worry about it. Ride however you are comfortable.


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## Trail Addict (Nov 20, 2011)

If you want to ride XC with long and steep climbs then keep your seat high. 

A rule of thumb is that you should lift your seat to where your leg has a very slight bend when sitting down and extending your leg to the bottom in alignment with the crank.

Once you get to the downhills then lower your seat a little. I have gotten so adapted to having my seat high that actually having my seat down on the downhills feels weird and reduces my control.


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## EZRider 19 (Nov 6, 2011)

I am 6'1 270lbs. I ride my Talon or my Anthem 29er equal length on both bikes. It's about comfort. You don't want it to low because you will struggle peddling and you don't want it to high either. Just ride the way you feel comfortable.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

As many have already said it just depends on you.

I ended up with a dropper seat post. The reason was riding with the seat lower for technical riding starting hurting my knees. Riding the seat higher, as it should be for pedaling made riding technical stuff no fun.

With a dropper I can do both. Also, like you I've always rode smaller frames. I'm almost 5'11" and fall right in between most sizing charts Medium and large frames.
I've always had a medium, but the bike I bought this week was a large.

It may have a lot to do with the geo of today's frames, but the large just felt better.

If you can get a demo ride, you might want to try the same bike in the larger size.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Yep, depends on trail, front/back tire, speed, riding style, bike geo,....Every year, when I lose some of my "bike fitness" from the off/winter season, I come back and say wow, that's low/not comfy, then as fitness level and speeds rise again, I wanna be lower over the bars. Some people have their saddle WAY higher than the bars and if it works for them great, but I find anything more than 2,3 inches, and the front is too planted, and lifting it for manuals or bunny hops becomes compromised. I also like a bigger, rounder, more aggressive tire up front.
BTW, saddle position should be the first, and is the most important adjustment for a good bike fit, so if that's good, and you wanna be lower over the bars, get lower or wider bars, and/or lower or longer stem.


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## PnkCrnk (Nov 25, 2010)

Surfacecreations said:


> ...I was even pondering if I had bought a medium frame or even large, wouldn't the seat be at the same height as it is right now with the small frame from the ground. If the size of the frame refers to the crank center to seat post clamp then doesn't it just mean the top tube is just at a higher position in relation to the crank and the actual seat position?...


I think that you're correct but then with the larger sizes the toptube and headtube lengths are also longer so that even though your seat height remains the same the handlebar will be a bit higher and farther from you. If the frame size difference is not too much then this can be fixed by changing or making adjustments to the components.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Some bike companies/models vary greatly, as far as top tube, head tube stand over, from one size to another, while others not so much. Changing components will help someone get fitted better but will also change the bike feel. As in a longer stem will slow down steering etc. 
Maybe a professional bike fit from your LBS is in order, or at least use an online guide to set you straight. Sometimes, when you change things to the way they will fit and work better for you, they don't seem or feel right at first. Give it some saddle time to see.

If your bike fits you well, you like the way she handles, and it's just a matter of looking like a better or faster rider, get yourself some bar ends, with some rainbow colored tights and call it good, LOL.


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## traffic002 (Dec 16, 2008)

Adjust your seat for efficient pedaling. Then adjust your reach depending on the type of bike and trail conditions.

For general trail riding, I like to have my bar a hair higher than my seat. I'm 5'-7" with rather short reach. If you have a long inseam and long reach, you'll probably feel just right with seat and bar at the same height. Basically adjust your reach with stem geometry and bar rise.

The only time to adjust your seat height would be if you anticipate a long and bumpy descent where the extra room to move around would be warranted over pedaling efficiency.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

It's going to depend on what's comfortable for you.

Don't worry about what other people say your seat height "should" be or how you see other people set their up.

The size of your bike will play a big role. If you have long legs with a short torso, your seat will likely be higher than if you had short legs and a long torso. If you're flexible and desire an aggressive riding position, your seat will likely be higher.

If you want a relaxed riding position, you will probably want a lower seat. If you want more room to maneuver the bike in tech spots, you will likely want a lower seat.

In general, you'll want to fit the bike to your desired leg extension and then play with the handlebars (more/less rise in the bar, more/less angle or length to the stem, etc) to get your reach where it needs to be to keep you comfortable and put you in the position you desire.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

Yeah, I'll second that... 

Do what is comfortable to you. Screw the 'n003' labels. Nobody is riding your bike but you. 

I know a guy who is a really good rider. He rides a blingtastic Titus Switchblade all decked out, but with crazy 4" high rise handelbars on a riser stem with lots of headset spacers. His grips are like 3" above his saddle. I run my grips about 2" below the saddle. He has back issues, so that is what he has to do to be comfy. 

He still smokes just about everybody on group rides.

Basically, you generally want your seat so that when seated and pedaling, your knee is almost all the way straight. If your saddle is too low, you'll get knee pain. If it's too high, you'll get knee pain and sore hamstrings. Lots of folks drop their seats low when they are doing super steep descents or stunts, but for pedaling, keep it up. 

Of course, this is just a generality. Do what works for you. As a n003, you'll find there is a lot of peer pressure to have your bike a certain way. Screw that. Take advice, but with a grain of salt.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

When people talk about how high the saddle is compared to the bars, it is the BARS that get moved, not the saddle. The saddle is positioned for best pedaling/maneuverability around it. This is the FIRST thing you set up. Then if there is any issue of how high or low the bars are, you move the BAR up or down.

This should have very little to do with the frame size. You can raise or lower the bars with a different stem/spacer combo, or switch to a bar with more or less rise.

Different setups work for different riding styles, bikes, and people. Among the group I ride with you will find everything from a few inches above to a few inches below the saddle.


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## limzhong (Nov 2, 2011)

loaded question here. primarily it depends 100% on what riding you are doing and how comfortable your body is with the various set ups. if you have back problems or suffer from back pains, who cares if you throw on a riser-bar and/or drop your seat height to lessen the strain on your back? true that pure xc riders typically set up their bikes with a high saddle, flat narrow carbon bars, and/or negative rise stem. yes that looks "pro", but what's the point of having a pro-looking bike, riding in a pro position, but have ur back hurt like hell? 

agree with kapusta, the saddle height should be the fixed value, you can change out the bar to suit your posture/geometry/riding style next. if you do more than just singletrack and pavement, nobody's gonna judge you if you have a riserbar, which might make your bike look more "nub". first and foremost, you should be in a comfortable yet efficient position

cheers


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Since I'm a type that admires skill more than cardiovascular fitness, I'd be more willing to accept others "opinions" on the matter if they had some skill as opposed to being "roadies turned XC bikers":

Aaron Gwin: World Cup DH Champ (the top spots in DH races recently often are won by those who find places to get a few more pedal strokes in)









Danny Hart: DH World Champ









Chris Akrigg: Just a total BAD ASS (click to see his vids--must sees)









Mark Weir: one of the top guys at AM/Enduro style racing









Even some XCers don't run really low bars:

Ned Overend: been racing mtn bikes since the early 90s or maybe even before then. Doesn't seem that high. He's a pretty tall guy.









Tinker Juarez: also has been racing mtn bikes since the early days.









Emily Batty: even with picture showing the front wheel lower than the back... she feels this setup is better than a 26" with seat much higher than the bars.









Useless to come up with conclusions based off of pics without knowing the context, but it at least serves as an example that it's not something you can generalize about.

Regarding saddle height, you get the most power at the end of your stroke, so it's most efficient as high as you can get it without extending your leg so far that you "lock out" your knees.

Higher bars allow you to maintain a good centered position over the bike on a steep downhill. Lower bars helps you get in a more comfortable stretched out position on climbs that also keeps weight centered and not too back heavy. Travel adjust forks allow the best of both worlds at the turn of a switch (though they don't necessarily perform just as well as non-travel adjusting versions).

The stretched position is typically the most comfortable, as it keeps your back from doing much work to support your upper body weight. If you aren't holding up your upper body weight with your arms or ass, it's your lower back keeping it up (ie. bent forward with a very light touch on the bars). If you're keeping up the weight of your lower back for a long time, of course it's gonna get tired and sore. If you have a short top tube and shoulder width bar and keep a stretched position, you're more upright and more you of weight's gonna be on your saddle and your ass is gonna get sore first. Try to balance the spread of your upper body weight accordingly, with a stretched position. You can get lower up front with a wider handlebar too.

Heck, here's Lance Armstrong at Leadville. I expected his saddle to be way higher than his handlebars, from seeing other pics. Interesting to note that his leg is at full extension and his fork is deep in travel, indicating that his seat is at a good height and his grips would be even higher than they are in this shot. He has surprisingly good form... maybe I shouldn't be surprised, as he's a pro cyclist and an amazing athlete that wins these big races.










Cropped and leveled:


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## EZRider 19 (Nov 6, 2011)

How much money do you think Lance's Trek is worth.... Yikes...


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

If you're riding XC type of riding, generally those guys have their seats way past their handlebars. I gave that setup a try and hated it, I ran the stem negative degrees w/ a flat bar and ran no spacers. It felt like I was riding a road bike. It was AWESOME for climbing, but that's pretty much it. Another reason why is because they usually run 80-100mm forks. 

Right now I run a 0 degree stem with a low rise handle bar + 2 small spacers and my seat is still above the handlebars. I'm 5'10 and have a 19" frame. Not sure if it's because I have freakishly long legs but if you looked at my bike standing alone you'd think it belongs to a person who's 6'3.

As other people said just setup your bike to be comfortable for you. I have 2 buddies who are kinda heavy set that insists on keeping their seats low. I guess it's because their thighs and butt is so big they can't extend their leg when seated on the saddle.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

While I'd really like to criticize his climbing form in the video below, Todd Wells does put out good results:






Definitely a roadie, keeping his elbows tucked by his body with his hands on the [flat part of the drop bars], which are aero position habits. That position and the bobbing looks like it'll definitely put a strain on the lower back and making his ass sore, without the arms doing much to support the weight of the upper body.


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## RealyNorth (Nov 15, 2011)

my seat is higher up than than the handlebar, but i did not know anything about what this topic is about, i place my seat so my legs are straigth when they are in the lower position


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## cdouble (Jul 24, 2007)

Seat too high. Your knee should have a slight bend at the bottom of your downstroke. If your leg straightens, at best you will bounce on the saddle, at worst you will do some damage to your knees.

Once you have that sorted out, you can play with height of your handlebars.

Good luck.

cdouble
http://mo7s.blogspot.com


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