# Better Gear for Women



## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

*Better Bikes and Gear for Women*

Cool gear is more than cool colours. We want better stuff 

"Treat us with the same respect afforded us in the field, and give us the gear that lets us tackle any line or trail we want. We'll take care of the rest".

Good article. I thought of my own style and gear. I'm average height and weight so I can get away most times with men's size small bikes but what about smaller women? Or what about taller women who want high-performance equipment?

How Gear Companies Are Getting Women's Products Wrong | Women's | OutsideOnline.com


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

My pet peeve is when a quality company makes tons of real gear for men and mostly femmy casual-wear stuff for women. My beloved Ibex is on this list... I rarely look at their "women's" stuff, or if I do, there is like 1 pair of outdoors pants and mostly dressy stuff I don't care for. Similarly, I think I only own Patagonia bras, not any actual women's clothes from them. I recently returned a pair of Bellweather "XL" women's bike shorts for being too snug. I am 130 lbs...really???!!??!!


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## Melll (Jan 25, 2015)

Great article, thanks for sharing.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

My beef is FINDING this stuff. We have over a dozen bike shops withing 25 mile of my house, and REI is the the only place that carries more than one small rack of women's clothing. Our five ten dealer did not bring in any of the new women's shoes.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

I'm not saying I don't agree, but don't you think it is interesting that the exact same women are posting here that posted 6 years ago (with the exception of one - welcome Melll)? The rate of population increase at the high end is very, very slow and MTBr is a good example of this - there has been minimal change in the participant list here over the last 10 years.

I work in the industry, and have a pretty clear picture of what the challenges are when it comes to bringing women's gear to market. While I personally pursue all of the things the authors describe in the article (the same damn stuff the guys get, thank you, and no baby pink, please, I am a grown a** woman) getting high end product into shops is challenging. These are almost all small businesses, and they have a limited amount of cash to work with. While stocking product based on principle is nice, the reality is that they can choose to stock a pair of shoes that will sell to 90% of their potential customers or they can stock a pair of shoes that will sell to 10% of their potential customers. In a business where two weeks of bad weather can cripple a selling season, which do you think they will choose? Think about all the shops on the East coast - they will be hungry for sales when all that snow finally melts - they are going to choose things that help them to make up for the brutal season as fast as possible - it would be very risky to invest in WSD over gender neutral or men's product. @Formica - the fact that you only find things at REI is a perfect illustration of this. They have the cash to take the risk, and even they keep their risk minimal.

That said, there are brands that have made significant progress, but you have to look at why. Santa Cruz and Juliana are a good example - the Juliana bikes are not WSD - they are repainted standard Santa Cruz models with some intelligent women's specific component substitutions. This requires a LOT less investment than a women's specific carbon mold. Again, the real challenge is that the manufacturers have to convince the shops to keep this product on the retail floor - that Juliana will only work for 10% of the customers. Why would they choose to stock that over another Bronson? It is a gamble that only the biggest shops can easily afford. Any woman who wants the same high end experience as the guys can get this by making component changes on a standard bike model. You'll get better parts and a better deal in the end - a good shop will make this easy for you.

I've been in the industry for over 20 years, since before the Terry saddle*, which is really the product that started the entire women's product boom. We have seen SO MANY AMAZING CHANGES in two decades. I get stoked every time I see a new women's product or brand succeed, even when it is an entry level product covered in butterflies - those new riders are the ones that will eventually make these conversations more dynamic.

Cheers,
C

_*Those of you who are too young to know this - you owe everything to the Terry saddle. Before that hit the market, there were no women's products worth mentioning. The amazing growth in women's cycling is due almost entirely to one person figuring out how to make women comfortable in 1991. We have come a LONG WAY in 24 years. When compared to the total history of cycling, the rate of change has been pretty fast. _


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

Yeah, I agree, it's a complicated issue. How can we blame them for not making it / not selling it, when "we" aren't buying it? Or there isn't enough of "us" that are. I think the solution is to get more women out there and then we can start demanding more from the industry.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Thanks Chuky- a reminder to look at the half full glass, not the half empty glass. Case in point: same LBS that carries 5-10's sells Liv and Giant WSD like there is no tomorrow, and stocks Juliana. Owner's wife is 5' even, and her tiny bikes are always available for demo. Same shop also sponsors the Biking Betties: they are hosting women's only mtb fit and maintenance clinics for us, providing space for our gatherings, helping us to get jerseys and hats, and doing stickers for us.

This is what the guys provided for our season opener...








and


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## snowgypsy (Jun 5, 2011)

*Rambling Thoughts*

Perhaps, and this is a big perhaps, the main issue is that there is a men/women divide within the industry itself; this divide reinforces certain stereotypes that continue to trickle down into every facet of mountain biking.

I wonder what would happen if, instead of focusing on women/men, the industry focused more on expanded sizing options, color options, and skill level . When the industry focuses solely on gender, it's inevitable that certain stereotypes/issues are replicated and reinforced.

Men = expert, more aggressive, stiffer, bigger
Women = beginner/intermediate, more "friendly," pastel colors, more forgiving, smaller

These stereotypes can be seen in the clothing, the gear, the bikes, and even the skills camps.

There's an interesting phenomenon within the sports community when it comes to women. When a women is a beginner and just starting out, she falls neatly within industry stereotypes. As she grows and becomes an expert in her field, she becomes "one of the guys." This can be seen in nearly all aspects of the sport - one of the most noted examples was a ski move in which Ingrid was described as a "dude with a ponytail" and her skiing was described as special because it mimicked how "a man would ski."

It creates a new stereotype:

beginner = more feminine 
expert = more "dude like"

Seriously...I love pink. And I rip. It would be awesome to get some carbon bars with a little pink detail at 750mm - but that isn't going to happen because...stereotypes. No more than poc making a vpd spine tee for women (short waist and yes, boobs - can't I find a spine tee that actually fits??).

And, thinking aloud, perhaps that is the true issue here. As women grow beyond the industry stereotypes, the industry no longer has a category to place us within. It becomes difficult to market to us and to guarantee profits, and therefore, risky. And so, they ignore us, choosing to focus on the safe and the "known."

As we grow and the sport grows beyond the categories it has been confined to, the industry is left scrambling, and we are left without many options. But, I'd like to think that this friction and uncertainty is a good thing. It reveals how far we have come, it reveals that change is inevitable, and the fact that this conversation is even taking place, is a step in the right direction.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

snowgypsy said:


> I wonder what would happen if, instead of focusing on women/men, the industry focused more on expanded sizing options, color options, and skill level . When the industry focuses solely on gender, it's inevitable that certain stereotypes/issues are replicated and reinforced.


I recently worked on some research that supports this - in the end, if a shop is beginner-friendly, it will also be gender-friendly. Being beginner-friendly is actually a really smart move for a shop - the example I used was that if when you walked into a shop as a beginner of any gender, there was a very clear graphic that told you how to properly wear a chamois ("it's like a swimsuit - no underwear, try chamois cream) and under that educational sign there was a display containing good men's and women's saddles, a basic men's and women short, and some chamois cream, sales of those three products would grow exponentially and your newest customers would feel a lot more confident and happy on their bikes. It has nothing to do with gender, it would work for every beginner.

The same research did highlight some key gender differences, however. Women are a lot more affected by life transitions than men. In many families it is their hobbies, jobs and personal fitness that bear the impact. Kid's school schedule is different? The woman changes her schedule, too. New baby? Move? Job change? Illness in the family? Same deal. The key seems to be catching beginner women in these transitions and making cycling a natural, easy choice.



snowgypsy said:


> beginner = more feminine
> expert = more "dude like"


The sheer number of times I've been told some version of "you are ok, because you ride like a dude"... hmpf. It's annoying, but not as annoying as the number of times I've been told that "women don't count" in the last 20 years.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

formica said:


> My beef is FINDING this stuff. We have over a dozen bike shops withing 25 mile of my house, and REI is the the only place that carries more than one small rack of women's clothing. Our five ten dealer did not bring in any of the new women's shoes.


Or bike companies bringing no WSD bikes to demo days, or only one size small--compared to scores of M/L/XL bikes.

I do feel like some bike companies are finally beginning to spec higher-end components on WSD bikes, though, which is a welcome change.


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## cleopatra999 (May 9, 2012)

formica said:


> My beef is FINDING this stuff. We have over a dozen bike shops withing 25 mile of my house, and REI is the the only place that carries more than one small rack of women's clothing. Our five ten dealer did not bring in any of the new women's shoes.


I guess we are lucky up here. We have 5 shops in town. All of them carry a generous amount of women's specific bike clothing. I would say almost equivalent to the men's. DH Shoes are another story. I know some of the brands the stores stock in small men's sizes. For instance my Van's are a men's shoe size 4 or 5. Worked no problem.

We have a huge population of female riders here in town, perhaps sheer numbers has increased the selection.


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## snowgypsy (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm not sure if the issue is clothing/apparel. My lbs (all three of them) stock plenty of it as that's their biggest seller during the "tourist" season. 

What I struggle to find is specialty gear - DH pads and helmets that fit, for example, 5.10's in my size, and yes, bikes as well as various parts to customize the bikes that I currently own. It's annoying on both fronts. The apparel section is devoted largely to women while the gear/helmet/parts/shoes/DH section is largely devoted to men. 

I can't blame the lbs - that's how it works and how it has been in the past. I just hope that, over time, a shift occurs, and me, wandering in throughout the season looking to spend money there...and leaving empty handed has some impact.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

An unfortunate side effect of this is that I end up buying online more than I'd like to, and it becomes a vicious circle... LBS doesn't stock the women's gear or sizes I need, so I buy it online, which means LBS doesn't see more demand for the products, so they don't stock it.... I suppose I could be better about special ordering, etc.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

The problem with special orders (and online) is that you can't try things on. We all know that cycle clothing sizing is all over the place, and that shorts in particular have to be tried on.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

formica said:


> The problem with special orders (and online) is that you can't try things on. We all know that cycle clothing sizing is all over the place, and that shorts in particular have to be tried on.


Exactly... that's why I don't special order that often. If I order something online and it doesn't fit, I have no guilt just returning it. If I special order something from a LBS and it doesn't fit, I have now wasted their time and resources and still haven't made them any money (might have lost them some, though).


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## dbdg (Nov 6, 2014)

Im both lucky and unlucky when it comes to sizes. I'm 6' and most guy things fit me well enough. the down side is I would like some womens specific things, but most womens specific is aimed at smaller girls. 

& snowgypsy that was very well stated.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

dbdg said:


> Im both lucky and unlucky when it comes to sizes. I'm 6' and most guy things fit me well enough. the down side is I would like some womens specific things, but most womens specific is aimed at smaller girls.
> 
> & snowgypsy that was very well stated.


I'm right there with you and I'm only 5'9".


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

*It's all about numbers.*

When enough people want it, it'll happen. As an example - if a shorts manufacturer wants to make an additional size and the minimum run is 300 per SKU (a fairly realistic production number for a single size/color/style at an overseas factory), they have to believe that they can sell 300 of that size. A women's size 10 short - probably they can do this if the product is good, the sales channels are well sorted and they have a good dealer list... But, a series of shorts with varying waist sizes? Multiple size 10 shorts to accommodate varying body shapes? Every single iteration will have to meet the same minimum. So, where a manufacturer may have the confidence that they can sell 300 pairs of size 10 red shorts, they may not have the same confidence when tasked with selling 300 pairs of size 10-extra hip room-red shorts. In most manufacturing relationships, every single variation creates a new SKU and new minimums to meet, while, at the same time, reducing the potential number of people for whom that product will work.

Bike frames are even more complex. Back in the day, when alloy or steel was the rule, it was a lot easier to try new sizes. You could start small and scaling up meant that you bought more raw material and the welders had more work - this is one of the reasons you still see WSD models introduced in alloy and at lower price points.

Carbon is far more complex - carbon mold costs vary, but let's say it costs $50,000 to set up a new size. Because sales will be relatively small, it is going to take a long time to pay that off and make a profit, and it takes a huge chunk out of a company's cash flow in the meantime.

Setting up a new frame in size medium that fits a guy will work for about 30% of the market, which is pretty good. Setting up 3 unique WSD sizes for Women? You might be addressing the size needs of 3% of the market, half of which are just going to buy the unisex version anyway because they don't like the colors on offer in the WSD model. It is huge cash risk for potentially very low sales. This is why it is mostly the largest companies that offer these WSD projects. They have the scale, the dealer network and the ability to try riskier projects.

There are companies out there trying to address smaller groups of potential customers, such as riders of different shapes - Shredly is a great example of a company that is following standard pants sizing for women rather than S/M/L. In their MTB short, they offer ten sizes in 24 colors between 00 and 16. That is remarkable - 240 SKU in one shorts model alone. If you really want to be influential in the process, supporting companies like Shredly is key. If they see success with their model, others will follow.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

Shredly shorts are awesome. Love the example.


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## EcoTravelerChick (Jun 27, 2012)

I think that it is not only the higher end products that are lacking (as the article notes), but the lower end versions too.

I have to say I see a lot of women my height (i'm barely 5' even) or even taller who are riding "beginner" (i.e. under $1000) bikes that are way too big for them - this is likely because, as Chucky argues, the LBS needs to stock bikes that best meet the needs of an "average" sized rider, so these smaller women are sold medium or small size bikes when they really need an xs. They are extremely nervous when the trail gets narrow or steep. Having been in their shoes, I know what it feels like - your reach is so long you can't shift your hips back far enough to make it down a hill and feel in control, and your center of balance is completely off due to the seat being much too low for the proper geometry. Luckily for me I persevered long enough to decide I was willing to spend more money on a better bike. I upgraded to a $2500 fs wsd bike and it was night and day! the craziest thing about it is that even though it was a squishy, I flew uphill - twice as fast as the hardtail - an of course I was much more confident on the steeps and skinnies.... I realized it was because the geometry fit me, so my balance was right where it should be. Now I'm going up yet another price bracket, so that I can go even faster and hit those jumps harder!

My point with this is that when you are willing to move up a price point you can find good gear that fits, but when you are starting out it is much harder. I think we've skewed our own sport by the fact that most smaller women never get comfortable enough to invest in the better gear, because the cheaper versions don't come in wide enough sizes - or they are sold the wrong size by sales people who either don't care or do care, but are hobbled by the bikes they have in stock.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Nm...


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## Becky Redett (Aug 18, 2015)

*Better Cycling Jerseys for Women*

I see that this thread is old, but the issues regarding women's apparel are still relevant: skewed sizing, lame choices, uncomfortable, restrictive fabric, and the "shrink and pink" design concept. My cycling friends and I, middle-aged biking enthusiasts, got fed up w/the 100% polyester, heavily logo'ed, unattractive, 2-sizes-bigger-than-normal offerings from the big apparel makers. So we stopped buying jerseys altogether and, after hours of discussion in the saddle, decided to make a very comfortable, stylish high-performance jersey that fits properly, feels good, and looks great. If you'd like to see what we came up with, check out the new company *SASSY*CYCLIST. Thx. http://kck.st/1Sy2Tk5


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Good article about the results of discussions Rocky Mountain Bicycles had with female riders to learn how to better market mountain biking products to women. I'm not surprised by the feedback.

Ever asked a woman rider what she thinks? | Origin Design


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Amanda Batty shared Aubrey Demchuk's post on Instagram. Make gear that fits! Makes sense. I agree. "Build it and they will come".











> Royal Racing is sponsoring @wreckless_racing this year and, like many other MTB companies, they recently stopped carrying women's gear (because it's not profitable). Let me preface this post by saying that the following rant is directed at the MTB industry in general and not at RR. I'm very very grateful for their support of our team and, after tailoring of the men's gear by the amazing ladies at Silver Threads, I am seriously in love with the RR shorts and jerseys. That being said, I shouldn't have to tailor men's gear to get what I want. Women's MTB gear sucks. No wonder it's not profitable!! I don't want to wear short shorts - I like my thigh skin where it is. And I have a chamois that is so short, it rides up into my butt while pedalling and my thighs chafe anyway. I don't want floral patterns, tribal prints, or fancy girly writing. And everything does not need to be $&#%ing pink! Sometimes flashy is awesome but I usually just want a smaller version of standard men's gear: simple colour blocks, normal logos/patterns, looser/longer cuts, and proper protection. As I was writing this, I noticed @katieholden recently posted similar concerns about women's MTB attire. Maybe we should collaborate and start our own venture? #beavsonbikes #babesonbikes #girlswhoride #wewearshortshorts


Sauce: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155023123674732&set=p.10155023123674732&type=3&theater


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

Our team just picked up Troy Lee and I am super excited about their baggies although the last time I tried them on the XL wasn't really baggy enough but that was during the holidays.

I was sadly not impressed with Shredly even though everyone else seems to love them. Size 14s had about 6" extra in the waist but were tight in the hips.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Rae6503 said:


> Our team just picked up Troy Lee and I am super excited about their baggies although the last time I tried them on the XL wasn't really baggy enough but that was during the holidays.
> 
> I was sadly not impressed with Shredly even though everyone else seems to love them. Size 14s had about 6" extra in the waist but were tight in the hips.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


What do you like to wear? Sounds like you and I have similar fits.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

stripes said:


> What do you like to wear? Sounds like you and I have similar fits.


The only ones I have right now that I like are Zoic Naveah.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I just ordered some Patagonia shorts with a coupon. We'll see how they are.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

I just ordered a pair of shorts from Club Ride. I'll report back when they arrive


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Not only do I want better gear for women... I want to see real female athletes modelling sportswear and using gear in ads



> Kendall Jenner was just named the newest face of Adidas. Surprise! Just kidding, nothing is less surprising.
> 
> Last week, Hailee Steinfeld was made "brand ambassador" for fitness brand Mission. Just before that, Bella Hadid scored Nike's new campaign. In it, she models the brand's reissued Cortez sneakers, originally designed for runners in 1972 and embraced by athletes like Joan Benoit Samuelson, who won the gold medal at the first Olympic women's marathon (not to mention America's favorite runner, Forrest Gump). What a great opportunity to sign a female track-and-field champ! Seriously though, is not a single female athlete available?
> 
> ...


sauce: https://www.racked.com/2017/5/31/15691954/stop-casting-jenner-hadid-sports


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## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

I've been lurking on this forum while, and developing a new women's bib and baggy short system. It's definitely not a 'shrink and pink' effort.

These have been developed with the input of 100-miles-in-dirt riders, and allow you to wee without stripping down or fumbling for buckles and straps - I think they're quite a leap forward compared to what's been available.

Here are the bib-liners (they are designed to be worn under baggy shorts):
dirtbaggies.com/collections/womens




I'd love to hear your feedback, questions or experiences.
[email protected]

p.s. Mods, if you'd like this moved to a new thread, please go ahead and do it, or let me know.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Tim-ti said:


> I've been lurking on this forum while, and developing a new women's bib and baggy short system. It's definitely not a 'shrink and pink' effort.
> 
> These have been developed with the input of 100-miles-in-dirt riders, and allow you to wee without stripping down or fumbling for buckles and straps - I think they're quite a leap forward compared to what's been available.
> 
> ...


I'd like to see how it fits curvy females like myself. Lemme know if you need a tester.


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## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

We've been developing these for about five years (we've had to go back to the drawing board more than a few times), testing with riders of all shapes and sizes (not just skinny endurance riders). They're so stretchy that we probably could have gotten away with making only 2 or 3 sizes on the bib. Do we have you covered on the size chart?
If you're looking to test these for a product review or as an ambassador, please shoot me an email at [email protected]


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

So you still have to take your arms out of the sleeves of your top -assuming the bibs are under the top- to take a pee? Or did I miss something?


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

Looks like they're stretchy enough to just pull down in the back when nature calls. Interesting idea! I must admit I stay away from bibs (for both skiing and biking) due to the complications of taking a leak while wearing them. Maybe these are the answer. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

You just have to stretch the hem on the shorts around your butt, do your business and then pull them back up. Your jersey won't get touched in the process.

It's hard to demonstrate without being indiscreet. Does this help:
click for video: youtu.be/nt_3rILvazM


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Why we want and need more female athletes and real women to advertise gear.

I buy gear and products because I do the research and communicate with people who use the products. I don't purchase gear based on who they use for advertising. It would be great if we had people actually use and believed in the products they represent. I try to seek out companies, who's websites post reviews (good and bad) by real consumers so I can make an informed decision.

https://www.stillstoked.com/feature/sports-athletes-real-women-not-models/


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## 410sprint (Oct 19, 2012)

My wife has been very happy with Sheebeest kit for road and MTB.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

cyclelicious said:


> Why we want and need more female athletes and real women to advertise gear.
> 
> I buy gear and products because I do the research and communicate with people who use the products. I don't purchase gear based on who they use for advertising. It would be great if we had people actually use and believed in the products they represent. I try to seek out companies, who's websites post reviews (good and bad) by real consumers so I can make an informed decision.
> 
> https://www.stillstoked.com/feature/sports-athletes-real-women-not-models/


 Checked out Janeware here in the Boston area?


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