# Best helmet for concussion



## gt4130 (Aug 19, 2011)

Had a massive head over bars crash, landed on the left side of my head. Couldn't see out of my left eye for a few minutes. Still have a headache and my eye hurts still after 2 weeks. Have to replace my helmet but can not find any data on which provides the best impact absorption.
Any idea on which helmet provides the best head on non rotational impact? I like the MIPS idea but my worst crashes are head on.
Seems like Kali and Smith Optics are the only two to try and improve impact protection.


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

Here's the problem...

Helmet standards are Federally mandated. All helmets have to meet this minimum standard. However, at the time congress passed the law we didn't understand that the standard was too protective. "Too protective" means that that helmets are optimized to protect against crashes that are much higher energy that you typically see in bike crashes Essentially we would be better it the helmets deformed more at lower speeds. So what we have are helmets that work well to prevent catastrophic injuries, but end up delivering more concussions than are necessary. If the helmets were softer they would prevent a lot more concussions, and only allow a small number of additional catastrophic injuries. 

So... bad news.... every helmet you buy is going to "too hard"...even the cheap ones...even the expensive ones. 

More bad new.... since the standard is a law... it requires congress to change the law and there's not a lot of momentum for a small tweak to a safety standard. Not a big vote getter apparently. 

Good news....buy the helmet that fits well and provides good coverage, and comes in a color that floats your boat. 

MIPS is an idea that has a lot of merit (the research shows that the rotational forces cause a lot of damage relative to the compression forces), but the technology is definitely in its infancy. So you're into guinea pig territory. It will probably be 10 years before there's solid data on whether MIPS is getting the job done. 

IIWY, I'd probably take a non Personal Protective Equipment approach. Maybe get some good technique coaching along with a bike update and bike fit. Maybe reorient your riding to something less high speed/gravity....trials or endurance.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

You're asking a question no one can answer, because there is no relevant testing or certification. All we can do is do some general research, then listen to the marketing pitches and decide which one is the most convincing. Maddening but true.

Personally, I decided that MIPS did not sound likely to be effective, and that the best concussion-prevention bet is either Smith's crushable straws or Kali's dual-density foam. Sounds like you've reached the same conclusion.

Good luck.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Metamorphic said:


> If the helmets were softer they would prevent a lot more concussions, and only allow a small number of additional catastrophic injuries.
> 
> So... bad news.... every helmet you buy is going to "too hard"...even the cheap ones...even the expensive ones.


Do you have data to support that? Bicycle helmets are a lot softer and more crushable than moto helmets.

I think MIPS technology has merit, and I don't think you're being a guinea pig by wearing one. Worst case scenario would be that it only works as well as a standard helmet. I have a Scott Stego (MIPS version) and if nothing else the fit is superior to the standard version.

From the research I've seen all helmets are hard pressed to prevent a concussion, when your skull goes from 25 to 0 mph in milliseconds there's not much to prevent your brain from sloshing around in your skull.


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

OldManBike said:


> Personally, I decided that MIPS did not sound likely to be effective, and that the best concussion-prevention bet is either Smith's crushable straws or Kali's dual-density foam. Sounds like you've reached the same conclusion.
> 
> Good luck.


My wife crashed hard with a Kali (the All Mountian Model) that had the dual density foam. She concussed herself, had memory loss, CT, xray, the whole shebang. The helmet barely deformed at all; just some very slight compression visible at one spot. I would have liked to see the helmet much more damaged based on how she went down. Based on what I saw (or didn't see actually) I won't be buying any more Kali products for the family.

She wrecked again wearing a Giro Aeon. Less energetic crash it sounds like, but the helmet went into a couple pieces and has some obvious crushing. Much better performance IMHO.

I've got her in a Super2R now with MIPS.


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Do you have data to support that? Bicycle helmets are a lot softer and more crushable than moto helmets.
> 
> I think MIPS technology has merit, and I don't think you're being a guinea pig by wearing one. Worst case scenario would be that it only works as well as a standard helmet. I have a Scott Stego (MIPS version) and if nothing else the fit is superior to the standard version.
> 
> From the research I've seen all helmets are hard pressed to prevent a concussion, when your skull goes from 25 to 0 mph in milliseconds there's not much to prevent your brain from sloshing around in your skull.


There was a long article in Bicycling Magazine a couple years ago...(3 years maybe).. to that effect. The author really drilled down into the safety standards. Great read. Maybe its online. Yeah...here it is.

http://www.bicycling.com/sites/default/files/uploads/BI-June-13-Helmet.pdf


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Metamorphic said:


> My wife crashed hard with a Kali (the All Mountian Model) that had the dual density foam. She concussed herself, had memory loss, CT, xray, the whole shebang. The helmet barely deformed at all; just some very slight compression visible at one spot. I would have liked to see the helmet much more damaged based on how she went down. Based on what I saw (or didn't see actually) I won't be buying any more Kali products for the family.
> 
> She wrecked again wearing a Giro Aeon. Less energetic crash it sounds like, but the helmet went into a couple pieces and has some obvious crushing. Much better performance IMHO.
> 
> I've got her in a Super2R now with MIPS.


I hear all that. Personally I don't think anecdotal evidence is a very reliable way to assess helmet safety. No one in their right mind would say that the way to pick a safe car is by asking their friends about their car crashes. For cars they have real testing, hopefully one day they will for helmets, too.


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

OldManBike said:


> I hear all that. Personally I don't think anecdotal evidence is a very reliable way to assess helmet safety. No one in their right mind would say that the way to pick a safe car is by asking their friends about their car crashes. For cars they have real testing, hopefully one day they will for helmets, too.


Yeah, I hear you. But some times anecdotal evidence is all you have.

In the case of the wreck wit the Kali, I saw the wreck, I was there. I was very disappointed in how little the helmet deformed given the hit.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. That's where I am with Kali.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Metamorphic said:


> Yeah, I hear you. But some times anecdotal evidence is all you have.
> 
> In the case of the wreck wit the Kali, I saw the wreck, I was there. I was very disappointed in how little the helmet deformed given the hit.
> 
> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. That's where I am with Kali.


Yeah. I'm the same, actually. I won't buy another helmet made by the brand I was wearing when I got my original concussion, and for similar reasons. But I see that as more superstition than rationality.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Metamorphic said:


> In the case of the wreck wit the Kali, I saw the wreck, I was there. I was very disappointed in how little the helmet deformed given the hit.


Of course I don't know the particulars but suppose your wife was going two or three times faster and the impact was against a sharp rock? It seems helmet makers would have to account for worse case scenarios.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Says the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute:

"For those who have had a recent concussion: we recommend that you stop looking for an anti-concussion helmet. The second concussion will occur with much less impact. No helmet will stop that. Listen to your doctor about when you can return to cycling."

More here.


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## gt4130 (Aug 19, 2011)

Kali got bad marks on this test. About the only helmet test I could find that recorded impact forces. Looks like I will to sell my bikes and take up darts and bowling again. Seems like an easy thing to test and record. Which helmet best reduces concussive forces to your head. Wish I had enough to money for some wireless impact sensors and a bunch of helmets.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.580499141996200.1073741827.161841950528590&type=3


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Get an expensive, very lightweight road helmet with massive vent holes. While still meeting the same minimum standards, it will crush with less force due to having less foam.

Good advice? Not necessarily, but under the right circumstances, the increased crushing should reduce the impact force on your head....under the wrong circumstances, it may be more prone to splitting and letting that sharp rock through to your skull.

Your choice.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

gt4130 said:


> Kali got bad marks on this test. About the only helmet test I could find that recorded impact forces. * * *
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.580499141996200.1073741827.161841950528590&type=3


Yes, but two years ago, on an entry-level fullface, that doesn't have the dual-density foam.

Which just gets back to the point that you and everyone else here agrees on, that there are no informed choices to be made here.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

OldManBike said:


> Says the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute:
> 
> "For those who have had a recent concussion: we recommend that you stop looking for an anti-concussion helmet. The second concussion will occur with much less impact. No helmet will stop that. Listen to your doctor about when you can return to cycling."
> 
> More here.


I still take that site with a huge grain of salt. While they sometime dissmiss actual data, they then go on to make broad unproven/backed up statements like

"Most helmets slip anyway on impact, and we regard MIPS as unproven. "


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

TwoTone said:


> I still take that site with a huge grain of salt. While they sometime dissmiss actual data, they then go on to make broad unproven/backed up statements like
> 
> "Most helmets slip anyway on impact, and we regard MIPS as unproven. "


Sure, they're not the gospel truth. But who is? What source is more informative and reliable? I haven't found one. Helmet certifications offer significant objective measures of safety, but as you well know they don't tell you much of anything about relative protection against concussions. I think BHSI is a valuable source, but as I said above in the end I think we each have to make our best stab in the dark.

(And, not wanting to derail the thread, but do you disagree with them that MIPS is unproven? I thought that was correct. The only MIPS data I've heard of assumes a smooth, dry, grippy head, no? Is there proof that MIPS makes any real-world difference?)


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

The problem with this scenario is that you have to use very sterile and well defined, repeatable, tests to try to suss out an engineering solution that will produce, at best, a very slight advantage in the real world where there is wild variability and no repeatability. 

We're going to have to have several thousand well documented crashes where mips helmets are involved before you can see if it works in the real world. 

I think the important thing to remember is that it appears to be a technology without any cost to safety. It doesn't appear to be like something like denser foam vs less-dense foam, where you'd be trading better slower speed protection at the expense of higher speed protection. 

If the next time I'm helmet shopping I find a MIPS helmet that fits I'll buy that one. At this point in my life the cost of a helmet is not an issue one way or the other. But I wont stress out if there's not one.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Metamorphic said:


> The problem with this scenario is that you have to use very sterile and well defined, repeatable, tests to try to suss out an engineering solution that will produce, at best, a very slight advantage in the real world where there is wild variability and no repeatability.


I'm not so sure. I mean, when they started doing auto crash testing, they did plain-vanilla crashes, but over time they realized that offset crashes were different and deadly and required separate testing. You can do better, more realistic helmet testing and still be repeatable. It's not as if a smooth,dry headform is the only way to test helmet-rotation forces. It's the way that generates the result wanted by the people who have a financial stake in the outcome of the testing.



Metamorphic said:


> We're going to have to have several thousand well documented crashes where mips helmets are involved before you can see if it works in the real world.


You're right, and of course that's the problem and the reason why we all have to guess, even if more-educated guesses would be possible with better testing.



Metamorphic said:


> I think the important thing to remember is that it appears to be a technology without any cost to safety. It doesn't appear to be like something like denser foam vs less-dense foam, where you'd be trading better slower speed protection at the expense of higher speed protection.


Partly true, but I think you're overlooking the broader reality. If the market just accepts MIPS marketing at face value, then the financial incentive to continue improving is reduced. And if my guess is right that the less-effectively-marketed dual-density foam helmets made by Kali and the crushable-straws helmets made by Scott are more effective than more-effectively-marketed MIPS, then MIPS is not a technology without any safety cost.


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## gt4130 (Aug 19, 2011)

In stead of selling my bikes and taking up darts and bowling I decided on the smith forefront MIPS. Not sure if it works but can't be any worse than my previous helmets.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

OldManBike said:


> Sure, they're not the gospel truth. But who is? What source is more informative and reliable? I haven't found one. Helmet certifications offer significant objective measures of safety, but as you well know they don't tell you much of anything about relative protection against concussions. I think BHSI is a valuable source, but as I said above in the end I think we each have to make our best stab in the dark.
> 
> (And, not wanting to derail the thread, but do you disagree with them that MIPS is unproven? I thought that was correct. The only MIPS data I've heard of assumes a smooth, dry, grippy head, no? Is there proof that MIPS makes any real-world difference?)


I'll start my saying my college engineering days were about 30 years ago. So how I view it I'm sure can easily be argued.

One of the things I find fault with is everyone saying helmets slip anyway, they don't seem to be taking into account the forces created crash. Take that helmet with a 200lb body behind it moving at 15mph and when it hits, I'd argue that the friction in the helmet wouldn't allow the helmet to move as easily as so many seem to claim.

Taking what I've seen of the MIPS tests vs. the Non- MIPS, I'd wager the differences would be even larger if the head form weight 150-200lb to simulate the body mass behind the head.

I know that there are a ton of variables like your neck bending etc... but I'd like to see helmet tests that simulate what happens. Our bodies aren't magically suspended in air when our heads hit.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

OldManBike said:


> I'm not so sure. I mean, when they started doing auto crash testing, they did plain-vanilla crashes, but over time they realized that offset crashes were different and deadly and required separate testing. You can do better, more realistic helmet testing and still be repeatable. It's not as if a smooth,dry headform is the only way to test helmet-rotation forces. It's the way that generates the result wanted by the people who have a financial stake in the outcome of the testing.
> 
> You're right, and of course that's the problem and the reason why we all have to guess, even if more-educated guesses would be possible with better testing.
> 
> Partly true, but I think you're overlooking the broader reality. If the market just accepts MIPS marketing at face value, then the financial incentive to continue improving is reduced. And if my guess is right that the less-effectively-marketed dual-density foam helmets made by Kali and the crushable-straws helmets made by Scott are more effective than more-effectively-marketed MIPS, then MIPS is not a technology without any safety cost.


If I'm not mistaken, it was experts outside of the helmet industry that connected rotational energy with concussions. At least I've seen tests with MIPS that show the difference in rotational energy with MIPS vs Non. If the Scott Straws or Kali foams were reducing the rotational energy, then I would doubt they have similar tests released to show that they help reduce concussions as well.

I will say I enjoy these discussion we've had over the last year or so about helmets. It's amazing to actually have a mature discussion with out all the prepubescent trolls.


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## gt4130 (Aug 19, 2011)

Maybe when the bike companies are done finding the next best tire size they could focus on better safety for the rider, but sadly even if we die, there are more mtb riders being born every day. I guess it's not that much more profitable keeping older riders riding then it is getting new riders hooked.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

gt4130 said:


> Maybe when the bike companies are done finding the next best tire size they could focus on better safety for the rider, but sadly even if we die, there are more mtb riders being born every day. I guess it's not that much more profitable keeping older riders riding then it is getting new riders hooked.


Actually it's a catch-22 almost everyone is stuck in. If you read the few articles out there, people are complaining about football helmets as well, but those articles also mention if you stray from the 'Specs' even if it's for the better, you can open yourself up to lawsuits. Just be happy we're getting innovation in our helmets at all.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

TwoTone said:


> Taking what I've seen of the MIPS tests vs. the Non- MIPS, I'd wager the differences would be even larger if the head form weight 150-200lb to simulate the body mass behind the head.
> 
> I know that there are a ton of variables like your neck bending etc... but I'd like to see helmet tests that simulate what happens. Our bodies aren't magically suspended in air when our heads hit.


The Giro video shows testing that seems to be along the lines you're suggesting, around 4:30.



TwoTone said:


> I will say I enjoy these discussion we've had over the last year or so about helmets. It's amazing to actually have a mature discussion with out all the prepubescent trolls.


Agreed.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

To the OP: Not trying to derail this thread but be *very* careful for a few months after that crash. Be on the lookout for post concussion symptoms. A few years back, I hit a tree but I have no memory of it. I was commuting to work on a trail, got into a corner way to hot, blew out the apex & crashed into the tree. I have absolutely no memory of the impact or crash. When I regained consciousness, my bike was upside down on the bars/seat in the middle of the trail & the wheels weren't spinning. I felt no pain at all & couldn't really figure out how I ended up off the bike. I hoped back on & pedaled to work. I was about 10 minutes late. A coworker asked where I had been & I told him I thought I crashed. Long story short, he called my now ex wife to pick me up & she took me to the ER & they diagnosed a concussion. But that was just the start.

After that, any time I jarred my head, I would "grey out". (now that I think of it, I may have posted about it back in 2008 or 2009 -can't remember) I'd get tunnel vision which would fade to a field of sparkles & my hearing would fade into a super high pitched tone & if I didn't immediately sit down, I'd completely pass out. It was pretty sketchy. To be clear, I did *not* hit my head again in any of those instances, it was the jarring motion that caused it. So, it's great to get a better helmet but keep in mind that it may not help prevent further problems at all.


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## Rocky Mtn (Jan 19, 2014)

It is my understanding that a concussion is your brain hitting the inside of your skull.

If that is true, I am not sure any helmet is great at protecting against consussions


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Rocky Mtn said:


> It is my understanding that a concussion is your brain hitting the inside of your skull.
> 
> If that is true, I am not sure any helmet is great at protecting against consussions


Partially true, but research has shown that slowing that impact by even a few milliseconds can make a difference.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Rocky Mtn said:


> It is my understanding that a concussion is your brain hitting the inside of your skull.
> 
> If that is true, I am not sure any helmet is great at protecting against consussions


That's like saying that car-crash injuries are caused by the person hitting the inside of the car so why bother with crumple zones. Not too bright.


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## MadPainterGrafx (Oct 3, 2014)

I have several serious concussions and I definitely was not ready to get back to riding in 2 weeks. Basically Rocky Mtn is right about concussions however helmet manufacturers do attempt to lessen the impact by slowing it down through compressible foam. MIPS is a good idea but I haven't seen a lot of evidence to supprt it being the "miracle cure" for injuries like Motrin was for us in the military. 

Anyway most people do not understand or know that a crash at 15mph is considered a high speed accident. I was a ff for 19years and an emt for 6 out of those years. Ive dealt with many head injuries from auto accident to bike crashes to a rider being thrown from a horse even to someone who fell down a hill. After you have a concussion following concussions are easier to get. 

One of my kids friends can't play football any more because of concussions... it's a serious injury so take your time and listen to your doctors because you could cause permanent injurys that could drastically change your life for the worse.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

TwoTone said:


> One of the things I find fault with is everyone saying helmets slip anyway, they don't seem to be taking into account the forces created crash. Take that helmet with a 200lb body behind it moving at 15mph and when it hits, I'd argue that the friction in the helmet wouldn't allow the helmet to move as easily as so many seem to claim.


Sure, I wonder about that too. It's entirely possible that your argument is right. But until it's been tested it's just another guess. My own guess is that hair and sweat and real-world fit allow for a degree of slippage -- think post-crash cockeyed helmet -- that makes MIPS irrelevant.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Interesting new helmet, removable multi postion chinbar and expected to pass ASTM 1952.

I'll be keeping an eye on this.
First Look: Lazer Revolution FF Helmet - Eurobike 2015 - Pinkbike


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## triangle01 (Apr 1, 2015)

You need tools for chin bar removal..


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

triangle01 said:


> You need tools for chin bar removal..


So, I don't want one that I carry a chin bar around and put on before a downhill, then take it off for climbs. The MET has proven that isn't needed. It amazing well ventilated and barely warmer than a 1/2 dome.

What I need is a 1/2 dome for casual riding around in front of the house with my kids. It'd be nice to have one Helmet.

That said, supposedly MET will release a Parachute with removable Chin bar and ASTM1952 as well.


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## triangle01 (Apr 1, 2015)

TwoTone said:


> So, I don't want one that I carry a chin bar around and put on before a downhill, then take it off for climbs. The MET has proven that isn't needed. It amazing well ventilated and barely warmer than a 1/2 dome.
> 
> What I need is a 1/2 dome for casual riding around in front of the house with my kids. It'd be nice to have one Helmet.
> 
> That said, supposedly MET will release a Parachute with removable Chin bar and ASTM1952 as well.


I think that statement about chin bar removal was a typo. If you check met web page only things that are new are colors.
It's a great helmet though.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

This is interesting and all, but don't lose sight of the fact that a chinbar may do nothing to prevent concussions. In fact my guess (and of course it's only a guess, because there's no evidence either way) is that, all else being equal, you're _more _likely to get a concussion with a fullface than a half-shell, given size, weight, and leverage.

I'm not saying fullface helmets are less safe overall -- there are lots of ways to mess up your head without concussing yourself, especially bombing DH. I'm only saying that, if your #1 concern is finding an every-ride helmet to maximize your chances of avoiding a concussion, then more probably isn't better.


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## masterp2 (Mar 4, 2007)

From my observation over 30 years of evolution (if you have the balls to call it that), the ease of blown polystyrene technology preserved the ever worthless regulations we are stuck with, or vice versa. Both need to get slam dunked if we are to ever have real inmprovements to concussion resistance.

My son has crashed in everything. He swears up and down that his best protection is the Ace skateboard lid. And guess what? It is illegal to use it to ride a bike. Crazy messed up politics. But hey, at least we have a helmet test that every bike helmet must pass, and yet it has NOT one stipulation that suggests any concussion protection, low speed or high speed. 

It is my position that you should use anecdotal information as the best information available, as well as good ole common sense. When I looked at that skateboard helmet, it became VERY clear to me why he felt as he did about it. Anyone who has done that school project where you have to drop an egg in an enclosure, will also see why. It cradles the circumference of the head with mid memory foam that "feels" very effective at bleeding compression energy. That is where concussion protection comes from. Poly-s will prevent death, but the bigger reality of falls by a HUGE margin is concussion, not death.


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## Boomchakabowwow (Sep 8, 2015)

man..i've had two concussions. doc had me lay off anything that risked a hit to my head for awhile.

not so sure any of our helmets would save us in a big hit.. good luck OP. take care of yourself. i kinda remember my doc saying concussion damage is cumulative. cant remember..really.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

masterp2 said:


> My son has crashed in everything. He swears up and down that his best protection is the Ace skateboard lid. And guess what? It is illegal to use it to ride a bike. Crazy messed up politics. But hey, at least we have a helmet test that every bike helmet must pass, and yet it has NOT one stipulation that suggests any concussion protection, low speed or high speed.


I disagree with your assessment but if you think a skateboard lid is better then wear it, no one's going to pull you over and give you a ticket.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Very promising (and very expensive)

6D ATB-1T Open Face Helmet - Reviews, Comparisons, Specs - Mountain Bike Open Face Helmets - Vital MTB


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## gingus (Sep 27, 2004)

What about the smith forefront? 
Has anyone tried them? 

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## JXG (Oct 9, 2013)

I like Leatt because the founder is a physician, they test and test and test in the lab to evaluate design options, and their gear just impresses me.

Got a GPX 5.5 helmet for dirt biking (higher risk for me) and I plan to get the MTB equivalent soon. Did not get carbon as the 4 oz weight difference did not seem worth the price difference.

Not cheap, but even setting aside brain injury -- if it keeps me out of the ER for even a checkup it has paid for itself.


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## sevenhelmet (Feb 29, 2016)

What are you supposed to do if your head falls into a gap in their size coverage? For example, my hat size (circumferential measurement) is 22.75". The website old man linked in another thread lists helmets that cover 21.75-22.25" (M/L) and 23.25-24.75" (XL/XXL). So if I am interpreting their website correctly, my measurement falls precisely in the middle of a gap between two sizes. So, I would consider one of their helmets, but a poor fit would probably negate the advantages.

I'm honestly looking for a solution here, proper helmet sizing is a problem I run into quite a bit. I'm currently riding with a S/M Kali, and I'm convinced it's not the large enough, but the next size up didn't cinch down small enough to not flop around on my head. The back of head protection is also inadequate for my liking. What gives?


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

sevenhelmet said:


> What are you supposed to do if your head falls into a gap in their size coverage? For example, my hat size (circumferential measurement) is 22.75". The website old man linked in another thread lists helmets that cover 21.75-22.25" (M/L) and 23.25-24.75" (XL/XXL). So if I am interpreting their website correctly, my measurement falls precisely in the middle of a gap between two sizes. So, I would consider one of their helmets, but a poor fit would probably negate the advantages.
> 
> I'm honestly looking for a solution here, proper helmet sizing is a problem I run into quite a bit. I'm currently riding with a S/M Kali, and I'm convinced it's not the large enough, but the next size up didn't cinch down small enough to not flop around on my head. The back of head protection is also inadequate for my liking. What gives?


Uh, pretty sure it's just a typo on the 6D site. You'll notice that there's no gap in the metric sizes, only inches, and no gap between S and M. But you could contact them to confirm.


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## sevenhelmet (Feb 29, 2016)

Wow, great catch! I converted my noggin to metric and it falls within the M/L range (58cm). Maybe I will order one of those soon. I definitely need something better than the Kali.


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## Metamorphic (Apr 29, 2011)

Looking at their Dealer Map, their market penetration with their Motorcycle gear seems great, but there were no bike store dealers near me. Bummer.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Reposting from another thread:

For those who expressed concerns about fit for the 6D ATB-1T, Arts Cyclery has them in stock in M/L now (link), which matters because Arts has Zappos-like free return shipping. (Also free 2-day shipping and 15% off with promo code save15.)

So shipped fast with free return shipping, final price is $229.

(I have no connection to 6D or Arts.)


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

As far as MIPS goes, I can see the theoretic advantage, but bicycle helmets move around so easily to start with I don't believe it really helps.. I can believe on motocross helmets, which fit much more snugly, it does make a significant difference. And if it would move to football and street bike helmets where it could reduce injuries.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

Something like this might be interesting if adapted to cycling helmets

The Zero1 Flexible Football Helmet May Save Players? Brains | WIRED


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## SJDude (Oct 29, 2009)

Just saw this on a new episode of All American Makers:

2nd Skull

Very cool idea, and from the focus groups they did it would be quite affordable. $60 on amazon.

Basically its filled with a fluid that hardens on impact proportional to the severity of that impact, and made to be worn under a helmet. The inventor claims impact forces lowered by something like 30%.


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## dmo (Apr 21, 2006)

I recently crashed at relatively slow speed, 6-8mph, and got a concussion. I was wearing a Scott Overtake with mips. I hit the side of my head on the ground, maybe some roots, not sure honestly. The helmet had a small dent on the side and a small patch of the koroid looked crushed. The koroid left a bruise on my head. I'm still shopping for a new lid but it's tough to find the goldilocks type of helmet.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## zecamara (Oct 1, 2015)

I crashed two days ago in Fort Ord, concussion to the point of not knowing what planet I was, who was this guy asking if I was OK (he was one of the 2 group riders with me, coming back). Zero recollection of the crash, completely disoriented for a few minutes, maybe unconscious for half a minute?
Helmet had no depression, no signs of impact on foam, maybe some dirt marks on front right. Obvious signs I had crashed were dirt on right arm, bruised right cheekbone, scraped shoulder. I have another helmet that hit a sidewalk (car turning mid-block into a restaurant driveway, no concern for bike lane), definitely replaced, cracked foam.
I tried touching a door with my cheekbone with the helmet on, absolutely no way a flat surface could touch it. Either the helmet displaced a lot (there is always some slop in the chin straps), or I landed on the manzanita bushes out of the missed curve.

Bell Super 2R, without the chin bar (which I used once only). GPS file showed 17mph on one record, then 0mph for a good minute.


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## masterp2 (Mar 4, 2007)

I try to discourage people from buying removable chin bar helmets. The sales pitch concept just is not reality in practice. As if it is possible to plan when we are going to need it. A helmet sits in one place for hundreds, maybe thousands of hours waiting to do its job, and it will only have that one chance to take a bullet. I think the chin bar is more likely to be in the back pack, or the car when the victim wakes up.

I woke up in an ambulance, with your same injuries with a half lid 10 years ago. I feel supremely confident that a chin bar (FF) would have saved me an ER trip. I was knocked out by the blow to the cheek. A chin bar would have prevented contact and spread out the impact over time. 

I would like to see the 6D concept improved upon. I have the ATB and those guys are pioneers, but there are important things I would change.


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## zecamara (Oct 1, 2015)

What I really regret, curiously, was to not have my VR camera on the handlebar, it would not only have the great footage for my 'blooper reel', but also fill that void in my brain about those minutes before, during and after the impact. Great somnambulist ride, guy gets knocked out, doesn't move for XX seconds, then finds a bike, goes back up on the trail before brain finishes rebooting. When one rider caught up with me I had no idea who he was, where I was, who was the president of the US (always a silver lining...  ).

Maybe I will go for a replay with the chin bar. GPS data shows I was pedaling hard downhill, trying to gain more speed? What I was thinking? I will never know, about a minute before and after the crash are lost somewhere in my brain. It is like the plug was pulled and the computer hadn't saved to hard disk yet...


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## masterp2 (Mar 4, 2007)

I did not know what had happened until the next day, when I inspected my bike. Since I was found in the middle of a street I cross to get to the trailhead. The chain was broken. I did the math.

What is more important following these wrecks, is to be aware that a hard concussion takes months of recovery. Keep expectations very very low for a few weeks. This is no joke. Subsequent blows can bare lifelong consequences.


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## MadPainterGrafx (Oct 3, 2014)

masterp2 said:


> I try to discourage people from buying removable chin bar helmets. The sales pitch concept just is not reality in practice. As if it is possible to plan when we are going to need it. A helmet sits in one place for hundreds, maybe thousands of hours waiting to do its job, and it will only have that one chance to take a bullet. I think the chin bar is more likely to be in the back pack, or the car when the victim wakes up.
> 
> I woke up in an ambulance, with your same injuries with a half lid 10 years ago. I feel supremely confident that a chin bar (FF) would have saved me an ER trip. I was knocked out by the blow to the cheek. A chin bar would have prevented contact and spread out the impact over time.
> 
> I would like to see the 6D concept improved upon. I have the ATB and those guys are pioneers, but there are important things I would change.


Your thinking is incorrect about the chin bar. Fullfaced helmets are designed to have the chinbar to break away completely or crack to provide more flex to absorb a hit. I had a grade 5 concussion from a crash on my dirtbike and I wasn't going fast maybe 20mph. My helmet was fine and I did not hit my head but still got a concussion. Another time years before I had a weird crash that I barely scraped my helmet and got a concussion but the chinbar cracked on the side I scraped. It was not warrentied because the company said that it did what it was designed to do. Which was to fail in that area to absorb the impact.

The only helmet with a removable chin bar that has a downhill rating is the Giro Switchblade that is rated with and without the chin bar attached. The Bell Super R series is not rated for DH at all and I don't trust the looks of it protecting much anyway like most helmets honestly. I don't think they would as much as we hope they will in a serious crash honestly.

Sent from my LG-LS777 using Tapatalk


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## masterp2 (Mar 4, 2007)

MadPainterGrafx said:


> Your thinking is incorrect about the chin bar. Fullfaced helmets are designed to have the chinbar to break away completely or crack to provide more flex to absorb a hit. I had a grade 5 concussion from a crash on my dirtbike and I wasn't going fast maybe 20mph. My helmet was fine and I did not hit my head but still got a concussion. Another time years before I had a weird crash that I barely scraped my helmet and got a concussion but the chinbar cracked on the side I scraped. It was not warrentied because the company said that it did what it was designed to do. Which was to fail in that area to absorb the impact.
> 
> The only helmet with a removable chin bar that has a downhill rating is the Giro Switchblade that is rated with and without the chin bar attached. The Bell Super R series is not rated for DH at all and I don't trust the looks of it protecting much anyway like most helmets honestly. I don't think they would as much as we hope they will in a serious crash honestly.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS777 using Tapatalk


All well-designed helmets are designed to break, as part of the energy-time equation. I don't really understand what you are trying to say. A chin bar adds further protection from single point impact (like a cheek), and adds time to the energy dispersion. Not to mention the thousands $$ potentially saved in hospital/dental repair.

It is pretty simple. The chin bar has zero value, zero protection, when unbolted.


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## MadPainterGrafx (Oct 3, 2014)

masterp2 said:


> All well-designed helmets are designed to break, as part of the energy-time equation. I don't really understand what you are trying to say. A chin bar adds further protection from single point impact (like a cheek), and adds time to the energy dispersion. Not to mention the thousands $$ potentially saved in hospital/dental repair.
> 
> It is pretty simple. The chin bar has zero value, zero protection, when unbolted.


A lot of people think that the chin bar will prevent certain injuries and that's not always true. I don't want people believing that they are the miracle part of a helmet that can keep them from getting injured. They are mostly to absorb and deflect roost/etc from hitting the rider in the face with offering a little bit of extra protection in a crash. I got a severe concussion from a crash that I never hit my head so they can still happen no matter what helmet you have on you melon.

Sent from my LG-LS777 using Tapatalk


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## MadPainterGrafx (Oct 3, 2014)

zecamara said:


> Bell Super 2R, without the chin bar (which I used once only). GPS file showed 17mph on one record, then 0mph for a good minute.


Idk if most know this but the medical community especially emergency personnel consider anything over 15mph to be high speed. It sounded crazy to me too but after researching a bit it makes sense.

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## Hel Mot (Sep 19, 2007)

has anyone else seen this? Q30 Technology | Q30 Sports Science

The collar applies slight pressure to the neck which mildly increases blood volume in the brain to create a "cushion" that may reduce movement of the brain inside the skull.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

The best way to protect your head is not to hit it into a hard object in the first place. Yes very rare serious crashes are unavoidable....like once every 20yrs or so. But, if you are going OTB or hitting your head frequently there is a problem with your riding and a helmet is not the solution to it. It could be bike setup and/or coaching is needed or just riding a touch slower.

I have friends who crash regularly and friends who don't. The only difference is the first group chooses to ride beyond their skill/talent level and the later group doesn't. If the first group wanted to ride at the same speed/level without the crashes they could choose to do something about it.


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## RocketMagnet (May 22, 2008)

I'd say the primary function of a helmet is to reduce the chance of death and the secondary is reduce injury, yeah the two go hand in hand but not totally the same. So sounds like the helmet done it's job or possibly the OP wouldn't be here to discuss it.

Too much deformation runs a higher risk of intrusion (puncture) and hence reduces protection against death. So there is a balance with it being weighted towards reducing the chance you'll die so the helmet has to be weighted towards high speed high energy impact.

Helmets can't stop injury just reduce the severity and I don't agree that helmet slippage = MIPS as when fitted correctly MIPS should be a controlled reduction in rotational forces.. the helmet slipping with no real resistance until it instantly stops isn't the same IMO. Anyway I thought MIPS was aimed at reducing the effect glancing blows so quite a specific type of impact.

Like others have said many people ride outside of their abilities and crash frequently but seem to rationalize it with "If you don't crash your not going fast enough" and seem to think it's cool to crash because that shows how hardcore they are. Way too much bravado and I regularly see people on trails they really shouldn't be riding as they see trial grading as a personal challenge not a genuine guide to ability. 

Seems like the helmet companies are trying to improve the situation as MIPS has made it's way over from the snow sports.. still seems like it's now a serious avenue of R&D, sounds complex with all the different types of possible impacts though.

No helmet or new technology can get around people not fitting the helmet properly.. pretty sure I've been guilty if this myself in the past, not now I'm careful to ensure it's fitted properly and i'm not just pointlessly taking 600g of plastic and cell foam for a ride.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

masterp2 said:


> I would like to see the 6D concept improved upon. I have the ATB and those guys are pioneers, but there are important things I would change.


What would you change with the 6D ATB? I'm considering that and the Kali Interceptor as my new bucket protection. Obviously the Kali is lighter...but that's not the top priority for head protection.


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## ButtersNZ (Jan 15, 2014)

Personal anecdote incoming - I ride with a Kali Interceptor. I'm on my second one now since I damaged the first helmet from a fast OTB. The helmet did it's job. I can vouch for the Interceptor being light, flowing air well and doing what it was supposed to.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

masterp2 said:


> My son has crashed in everything. He swears up and down that his best protection is the Ace skateboard lid. And guess what? It is illegal to use it to ride a bike. Crazy messed up politics. But hey, at least we have a helmet test that every bike helmet must pass, and yet it has NOT one stipulation that suggests any concussion protection, low speed or high speed.


Where is it "illegal" to ride a bicycle with a certain kind of helmet?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Anywhere you need it to be certified.


twodownzero said:


> Where is it "illegal" to ride a bicycle with a certain kind of helmet?


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

OldManBike said:


> Says the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute:
> 
> "For those who have had a recent concussion: we recommend that you stop looking for an anti-concussion helmet. The second concussion will occur with much less impact. No helmet will stop that. Listen to your doctor about when you can return to cycling."
> 
> More here.


That is not good news. Just broke collarbone and bent a few ribs and was only i little confused 5 minutes or maybe 10. My helmet only a little dented. So I should not go back out on the trails when my shoulder is good again? With a new helmet of course.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

las-palmas said:


> So I should not go back out on the trails when my shoulder is good again?


You should follow the advice of your doctor. Not some random unqualified strangers on MTBR.com.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

vikb said:


> You should follow the advice of your doctor. Not some random unqualified strangers on MTBR.com.


Doctor said nothing about that. Was only looking at my broken bone and bendet ribs.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

las-palmas said:


> Doctor said nothing about that. Was only looking at my broken bone and bendet ribs.


Then ask him/her the question instead of us.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

vikb said:


> Then ask him/her the question instead of us.


Was just trying to see how serious the forum here is. Will meet with doctor next week, shoulder still not good enough the next couple of weeks, maybe more.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Even a Doctor isn't going to diagnose you over a web forum.

You're asking something that can't be answered in this format, has nothing to do with the forum.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm serious but not stupid enough to try to manage a stranger's medical problem online.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

OldManBike said:


> Reposting from another thread:
> 
> For those who expressed concerns about fit for the 6D ATB-1T, Arts Cyclery has them in stock in M/L now (link), which matters because Arts has Zappos-like free return shipping. (Also free 2-day shipping and 15% off with promo code save15.)
> 
> ...


just ordered the 2019 model 6D ATB-1T EVO but doctor told me to wait a month before using it and if I want to recover better wait 2 months. The POC Tectal I crashed in did protect enough to not break the egg but I think the new will be able to not shake what is left inside too much.






​


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

I'd say a wavecel helmet is best

but as you see in the thread, no way to really quantify that

however, I am a little bit smart, and picked these as my new lids

pros: bugs don't get in
cons: cannot scratch any itch

the best helmet is primarily one 
that fits properly,

and once you find ones that fit, then mips/koroyd/wavecel/ are the advanced science to lean toward

see here good info

https://helmet.beam.vt.edu/


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## Kali Jon (Jun 16, 2017)

127.0.0.1 said:


> I'd say a wavecel helmet is best
> 
> but as you see in the thread, no way to really quantify that
> 
> ...


Few brands doing it right. I don't believe in ever putting anything hard in a helmet. Helmets need to be soft so the can begin to address impact instantly. 
6D
Leatt
100%
And KALI PROTECTIVES 
foam density is super important. So are soft layers like LDL (low density layer)


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> I'd say a wavecel helmet is best
> 
> but as you see in the thread, no way to really quantify that
> 
> ...


Not that I know which helmet is best or which area of the world has the safest helmets, but I know that Japanese approved helmets are OK in Japan (they make some nice helmets that fit people with round heads better than most US and EU helmets. 
To get helmets approved in Australia must most of the light well ventilated helmets with US approval be made heavier and often less ventilated. Heavier = more safe? 
Even EU and US do not agree about everything (has nothing to with the president or prime minister) so where to buy a safe or the safest helmet depend on where you live. Sound silly? To be approved in EU and US the helmet must meet standards that are directly stupid as most of us never ride with the speed that the helmets must prevent cracking of the skull in order to be OK as the standard is having no limit for how much the brain should be protected. Movement of the brain is what causes concussion and the standards for helmets are telling nothing about how to protect the brain - only the skull.
Mips is supposedly good, but the motion that is allowed with Mips stops so abrubt that it is not much better than no Mips in my eyes. Wavecel from among other Bontrager may also be better and the straw in Smiths helmets they call Koroyd® is probably also better than the usually used foam. The rubber like or silicone dampers in 100% Altus and 6D motorbike and MTB helmets are another alternative.
I bought a heavy lid that according to what my concussed brain tell me is more safe than the one I had, as I just crashed in a POC Tectal Race, and the rather hard density foam inside it is well damaged and deformed and no longer of any use; plus my brain got well rattled. I thought a 6D ATB-1T EVO with silicone dampers would be a better choice and ordered one. Silicone is not degrading like the damping material in most helmets when exposed to UV radiation (and we all are if we are out in daytime).
The 6D ATB-1T EVO is not bigger than the POC Tectal I crashed in but definitely has better absorption for slow crashes as the inner part of the helmet is moving on the rubber-suspension where the foam inside the POC was rather hard. The weight of the helmet is also not felt when it is on my head plus the fitting of the helmet is excellent. There are lots of extra rubber pieces with the helmet to put in places where the shell is not touching my skull but I needed nothing. There is no bag for hanging the helmet up after a ride so it can dry, so I use the POC Tectal bag, which is great and well ventilated.
Hope not to find out the hard way that I bought a safer helmet, but I do think that silicone is better to protect my egg than the polystyrene or whatever not soft enough material that is mostly used in helmets, and for me a bigger and a bit heavier helmet with maybe even less ventilation is a small price to pay if my brain will be better protected.
In a couple of month's doctor hopefully think I can ride again and then I will tell if I think the new helmet is better than the old.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Nat said:


> I'm serious but not stupid enough to try to manage a stranger's medical problem online.


You passed the test!


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

TwoTone said:


> Even a Doctor isn't going to diagnose you over a web forum.
> 
> You're asking something that can't be answered in this format, has nothing to do with the forum.


You passed the test!


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

gt4130 said:


> Had a massive head over bars crash, landed on the left side of my head. Couldn't see out of my left eye for a few minutes. Still have a headache and my eye hurts still after 2 weeks. Have to replace my helmet but can not find any data on which provides the best impact absorption.
> Any idea on which helmet provides the best head on non rotational impact? I like the MIPS idea but my worst crashes are head on.
> Seems like Kali and Smith Optics are the only two to try and improve impact protection.


I am not sure Kali is improving impact protection. they use slick marketing to hype up the market


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Slick marketing? Remember back in March when Trek changed cycling _forever_?


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## Outrider66 (Jan 30, 2018)

Kali Jon said:


> Few brands doing it right. I don't believe in ever putting anything hard in a helmet. Helmets need to be soft so the can begin to address impact instantly.
> 6D
> Leatt
> 100%
> ...


I agree. The vast majority of bike helmets do a good job of protecting the skull itself, but a piss poor job of protecting the brain inside the skull. When your head stops suddenly, the fluid around the brain is squeezed to the side as the brain slams into the skull. Then you get a TBI. Been there/done that in an offroad motorcycle crash. And it really, really, really sucks. I have literally seen stars a few times in bike crashes, wearing helmets, and that is pretty serious, too.

Soft, spongy padding inside the helmet reduces or prevents that, depending on how quickly the head goes to zero velocity. However, stop quickly enough from a high enough speed, and no padding can prevent brain damage. The rigid foam inside most bike helmets is extremely ineffective at helping in that regard.

The mention above of the Ace skateboard helmet got me curious, and I need to go find one in a store, to feel the padding with my hands. If it is like I imagine, I would probably forever retire my very nice $100 rigid foam bike helmet with a very thin polycarbonate shell, and use the Ace instead. It can't be just a thin layer of soft foam over rigid foam. It needs to be full thickness soft(er) foam. And a fairly rigid shell, to protect the skull from impacting the ground, rocks or trees and cracking the skull bone.

I don't understand why bike helmets aren't going the way of thick, soft(er) foam, instead of what is currently offered by just about everyone. I call them "nominal helmets", because that is what they really are - helmets in name only - they only do part of the job(s) they are supposed to do.


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## Kali Jon (Jun 16, 2017)

Outrider66 said:


> I don't understand why bike helmets aren't going the way of thick, soft(er) foam, instead of what is currently offered by just about everyone. I call them "nominal helmets", because that is what they really are - helmets in name only - they only do part of the job(s) they are supposed to do.


When you increase the thickness of a helmet you add leverage for rotational torque. 
You got to bring mass to center. 
The trick is to reduce linear impact in a thinner helmet.


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## Kali Jon (Jun 16, 2017)

Picard said:


> I am not sure Kali is improving impact protection. they use slick marketing to hype up the market


Lol. I almost spit out my beer. Man I wish we had slick marketing.
We have a strong belief that helmets are to hard in order to pass an antiquated skull fracture threshold test from the 1970's
Our helmets are soft enough for the small bumps and hard enough for the big ones. 
Soft low density layers and multiple density EPS in geometric shapes.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Picard said:


> I am not sure Kali is improving impact protection. they use slick marketing to hype up the market


 For riding in city maybe this is the best https://hovding.com/ but for riding in mountains I am not sure that is the solution.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Kali Jon said:


> Few brands doing it right. I don't believe in ever putting anything hard in a helmet. Helmets need to be soft so the can begin to address impact instantly.
> 6D
> Leatt
> 100%
> ...


Jon not sure if it was you or someone else at Kali that responded to me in the past on helmet threads where I had said I really wish we had something like the IIHS for helmets.

Now that we do what is your opinion on the VT Tech site and their testing methods?


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

gt4130 said:


> Had a massive head over bars crash, landed on the left side of my head. Couldn't see out of my left eye for a few minutes. Still have a headache and my eye hurts still after 2 weeks. Have to replace my helmet but can not find any data on which provides the best impact absorption.
> Any idea on which helmet provides the best head on non rotational impact? I like the MIPS idea but my worst crashes are head on.
> Seems like Kali and Smith Optics are the only two to try and improve impact protection.


Which helmet were you using during the crash?

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## Kali Jon (Jun 16, 2017)

TwoTone said:


> Jon not sure if it was you or someone else at Kali that responded to me in the past on helmet threads where I had said I really wish we had something like the IIHS for helmets.
> 
> Now that we do what is your opinion on the VT Tech site and their testing methods?


I think the V-tech testing is great I wish more labs did that. Every lab we use we get different results. I also believe that more then 80% of impact are below 100 g's. You can be knocked out at 74 g's . So we need to test a bigger range of impact. Not just the big ones we need to test the common crash as well.

Here is a direct quote from head engineer and owner Brad.
" I'll take this discussion head on, We do a lot of testing, in-house and out. We strongly believe in our science and philosophies (test standards require our helmets to be too hard). We test at many labs all around the world, unfortunately we get very different results in each lab. Which one should I trust the most? the one that gives the best results? 
If we had all the labs in the world test and list all helmets according to each labs results according to their rating of performance (based on that labs and lab engineers principles and methodologies), I doubt we would get two labs with the same listing of helmet performances.
Currently lab tests are subjective. One lab might pass a helmet another will not. Some labs test 8 helmets randomly (which is my favorite because you can't design to specific points), other labs test 2 or 3 in exact same spots&#8230;. Which I feel is statistically weak.
Also if you test 10 different helmet brands the exact same spots (lets say 2 inches left of the crown) certain helmets will win out because of their shape design&#8230; where as if you take those exact same ten brand of helmets and pick another spot (lets say 2 inches above right brow) suddenly the performance list of the helmets is reversed.
To evaluate helmet performance I truly feel you need to evaluate much more than one lab&#8230; not to mention I believe all our testing is antiquated&#8230; these tests were all design back in the 70ties and does not to low G hits (below 70 G) into accounts. And the fact is almost 80% of impacts happen at low Gs&#8230; so when we design only for high G impacts, we increase concussion chances at 80 % of impacts.
However I will never criticize any lab trying to create empirical comparative data&#8230; I believe V tech as many other labs are trying to do an excellent consumer informative job. I wish many more labs would do this and between all the labs maybe truer picture of helmet performances would develop.
Meanwhile I stand by what KALI does. I have gotten different results from many different labs, and we will continue to push the latest technologies in the hopes of reducing rider's chances of concussion&#8230; that is our ultimate mission. And not only ours. There are many other like minded brands (and their engineers) I'm honored of working along side with&#8230; and though our production methods and material choices differ, and hence test results may differ from lab to lab, I see us all pursuing the same over reaching goal of improving rider safety!
Meanwhile I do hope you will consider researching how labs test, why they get different results, and differnt brand core values - and above all keep riding!"


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## Outrider66 (Jan 30, 2018)

Kali Jon said:


> When you increase the thickness of a helmet you add leverage for rotational torque.
> You got to bring mass to center.
> The trick is to reduce linear impact in a thinner helmet.


To clarify, I wasn't talking about increasing the thickness of the foam over what is standard now. I was thinking of keeping it the same thickness, but using a vastly different type of foam. A foam type that will let the head go to zero velocity in a few milliseconds, instead of instantaneously.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

*Are these damping materials leading to better security? I hope something is.*






















​
I think that these new models are reducing abrupt movements of the brain better than the foam used in most of the models we are used to. Some of the helmets have softer foam than other but as I see it silicone or similar are softening the blow more than any foam I have seen in helmets.
The 2ndSkull mentioned earlier here is probably also good, but ventilation will not exist with that and when riding and sweating we risk boiling the egg and a heatstroke is dangerous as well. Wavecel may be damping as well, but from what I have been reading, ventilation is almost non-existent in both that material as it is in the koroyd unless placed in a correct angle in a wind tunnel.
I ordered the 6D ATB-1t yesterday though I can see that the 100% Altec seems better ventilated, but that is mainly because I have heard good things about 6D motorbike helmets.


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## Kali Jon (Jun 16, 2017)

Outrider66 said:


> To clarify, I wasn't talking about increasing the thickness of the foam over what is standard now. I was thinking of keeping it the same thickness, but using a vastly different type of foam. A foam type that will let the head go to zero velocity in a few milliseconds, instead of instantaneously.


We did a helmet on the road side called the Tava. Super thin. It used EPS as well as a self healing carbon acrylic nano tube. That's the future.


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## Kali Jon (Jun 16, 2017)

las-palmas said:


> View attachment 1285075
> 
> 
> View attachment 1285079
> ...


I think 6d is an awesome system. Lots of respect given from Kali to 6d. My only knock is it's thick and heavy.

I'll stand by the statement that the Kali Maya 2.0 is the best value/protection available. 
It's 70 grams of foam per cubic liter.

Softer foam begins to react quicker then denser foam. You can pass the CPSC test by bumping foam density up. The trick is to pass the softest helmet you can make.

Ask about foam density.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

las-palmas said:


> Wavecel may be damping as well, but from what I have been reading, ventilation is almost non-existent in both that material as it is in the koroyd unless placed in a correct angle in a wind tunnel.


wavecel has enough airflow when riding I don't feel like anything is blocking it vs normal helmets, it's plenty airy. been doing hill repeats on hot days and the instant I get any speed or breeze immediate cooling can be felt...I use a spectre

no airflow ? bunch of crap, proven by my noodle


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> wavecel has enough airflow when riding I don't feel like anything is blocking it vs normal helmets, it's plenty airy. been doing hill repeats on hot days and the instant I get any speed or breeze immediate cooling can be felt...I use a spectre
> 
> no airflow ? bunch of crap, proven by my noodle


Sorry. I never used any wavecel just read this: 
https://www.velonews.com/apparel-reviews/bontrager-specter-wavecel-helmet
The 6D is not having the best airflow according to some and according to other it is cooling well if being moved so all testers do not have same idea of what good cooling is. the best ventilated I have had are the Whisper and the Octal but the foam inside are too rigid for me.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

NordieBoy said:


> Anywhere you need it to be certified.


In Australia you get a fine for riding without a helmet.
If riding with a helmet after standard of US or EU or Japan and the helmet is not approved in Australia you get the same fine as riding without a helmet.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Wonder if this is something for mountain bikers:

https://q30innovations.com/q-collar/


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## AkhenKheires (Oct 8, 2019)

I need to get a helmet, and I came across this thread. I found the Virginia Tech Bicycle Helmet Ratings List interesting, and I thought maybe I'd go for the Lazer Cyclone MIPS, since it has the best rating.

I understand the Lazer Cyclone MIPS been discontinued, and has been replaced by the Lazer Compact DLX MIPS, which I can't find much information on, or user reviews, or USA retailers, etc.

I did see this article: https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections...ling-helmets-that-receive-top-safety-ratings/ which states, "Lazer says the Compact DLX MIPS tests pretty similar to the Cyclone MIPS, if not even better. Regardless, if it was made in the same vein as the Cyclone MIPS, the Compact DLX should punch above its price tag in terms of safety rating. That will only be confirmed when the Lazer Compact DLX MIPS makes it into the hands of Virginia Tech's helmet testers."

I'm not familiar with the Lazer brand of helmets, and I understand the Lazer Compact DLX MIPS is "One Size Fits All", so I don't know if that would affect how comfortable it is. Having a Rear LED Light for visibility and safety seems like a nice touch.

Does anybody have experience with the Lazer Compact DLX MIPS helmet, and know if it really is about as good as the Lazer Cyclone MIPS it replaced?


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## Outrider66 (Jan 30, 2018)

las-palmas said:


> Wonder if this is something for mountain bikers:
> 
> https://q30innovations.com/q-collar/


Interesting. Maybe it could be something for us bike riders. The site in that link doesn't really tell anything at all (but has a ton of clever, yet frivolous marketing). I was looking for just an explanation of how it works, and didn't see anything there, but I just did a search, and found this:

https://www.si.com/edge/2016/06/15/...hnology-qcollar-neck-wearable-football-hockey

That link summed it up in one sentence: "Lightly clamping down on a person's jugular veins, the collar causes the brain to swell and fit more snugly within the skull". I suspected it must do something like that.

I wouldn't run out and buy one just yet, but it is something worth researching further. I imagine there _may_ be some sort of negative side effects, though.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

AkhenKheires said:


> I need to get a helmet, and I came across this thread. I found the Virginia Tech Bicycle Helmet Ratings List interesting, and I thought maybe I'd go for the Lazer Cyclone MIPS, since it has the best rating.
> 
> I understand the Lazer Cyclone MIPS been discontinued, and has been replaced by the Lazer Compact DLX MIPS, which I can't find much information on, or user reviews, or USA retailers, etc.
> 
> ...


All companies have nice things to say about their own products.

Virginia has tested several old models not just the Lazer.

Mips is better than the older helmets before Mips but has some problems. The one with protection is that even though the system allows the helmet to move on the head is that it will stop suddenly. Other less important for security flaws can be found on the internet.

Most secure helmets are made for motorcycles, but most of us riding bicycles (commute, mtb or road) will find such big helmet overkill, besides the ventilation in these is depending on riding faster than most of us on bicycles do. Ski helmets also meet higher security standards but are also not deemed ideal for cycling. Helmets made for skiing probably do not need too much ventilation (it is cold enough in the snow).
Other systems than Mips are wavecel and the straws glued together that Smith use and these systems also have minor flaws. Some Smith also have Mips added.

So far I am not aware of any perfect helmet, but POC has a new system they call Spin which has not the same problem Mips has but if good I do not know. POC is renowned for ski helmets (just like Smith) so it could be really good.

Some other systems like 100% Altec uses is suspended on silicone like rubber and that helmet looks really well ventilated and would be my number 2 choise. Kali also has some rubber things inside and probably not bad either.

The one I just ordered (and have not yet received) is the 6D ATB-1t which is 2 helmets in one with the inner connected to the outer with silicone rubber, so it is a bit larger and heavier than most other helmets. 
Some say 6D ATB-1t has little ventilation and some say it is no worse than helmets with mips and still better than wavecel and Koroyd Aerocore from Smith.

Just my idea of safety after a crash that has so far kept me off the bike for more than a month now and next visit to doctor is in 2 weeks so maybe (I hope) he will tell me that I can start again.

One size fit all is ??? Round head, narrow head, small and big head?
One size fit many OK.

Just my opinion


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Outrider66 said:


> Interesting. Maybe it could be something for us bike riders. The site in that link doesn't really tell anything at all (but has a ton of clever, yet frivolous marketing). I was looking for just an explanation of how it works, and didn't see anything there, but I just did a search, and found this:
> 
> https://www.si.com/edge/2016/06/15/...hnology-qcollar-neck-wearable-football-hockey
> 
> ...


Wonder if the increased amount of blood inside the skull is good for longer rides or only an advantage for short time sports.


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## Outrider66 (Jan 30, 2018)

las-palmas said:


> Wonder if the increased amount of blood inside the skull is good for longer rides or only an advantage for short time sports.


Me too. And I wonder if the increased BP would make me do more, or fewer...stupid things while riding. Would it make me smarter or dumber? And would it increase or decrease the chance of a stroke or aneurysm?


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## Gurpil23 (Jan 23, 2018)

Been following this thread closely as I had a concussion few weeks back. In my case was a very low speed (less than 10km/hr) fall. I washed out my rear wheel when didn't expect it at all. Barely felt I hit my head, but it was enough to have four weeks of headaches and nausea. I was wearing a Giro Chronicle with MIPS which is the best fitting helmet I have found so far, but now looking to the newer generation of helmets that try to address slower speed impacts. In addition to the brands mentioned here I wonder what is people's experience with Bell's MIPS spherical and use of two different foam densities.


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## Outrider66 (Jan 30, 2018)

A Famous Footwear near me appears to be a dealer for those Pro-Tec Ace skateboard helmets. When I get a chance, I will try to check one out, so I will know about other options when my current $100 TLD helmet needs to be replaced. If the Ace has spongy foam inside that actually cushions, instead of the rigid foam in the TLD, then I will likely get it. Especially if it costs less than $100. Oh, and if it is as comfortable as my TLD.

Rigid foam is next-to-useless for doing anything to prevent concussions and the like. I can't believe the majority of bike helmet manufacturers haven't gone the route of something better for that, especially since the vast majority of head injuries must be concussions (and the like). A concussion is just a minor TBI.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Outrider66 said:


> A Famous Footwear near me appears to be a dealer for those Pro-Tec Ace skateboard helmets. When I get a chance, I will try to check one out, so I will know about other options when my current $100 TLD helmet needs to be replaced. If the Ace has spongy foam inside that actually cushions, instead of the rigid foam in the TLD, then I will likely get it. Especially if it costs less than $100. Oh, and if it is as comfortable as my TLD.
> 
> Rigid foam is next-to-useless for doing anything to prevent concussions and the like. I can't believe the majority of bike helmet manufacturers haven't gone the route of something better for that, especially since the vast majority of head injuries must be concussions (and the like). A concussion is just a minor TBI.


No boa dial to keep it snug. I wonder how much it weighs?

I understand wanting the best helmet for the job and I do think some are much better than others but the same time none can really prevent concussions. To say rigid foam is next to useless is false.


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## Outrider66 (Jan 30, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> No boa dial to keep it snug. I wonder how much it weighs?
> 
> I understand wanting the best helmet for the job and I do think some are much better than others but the same time none can really prevent concussions. To say rigid foam is next to useless is false.


It is not false that it is _next to_ useless for preventing bruised brains (concussions). I didn't say completely useless. Rigid foam is somewhat better than wood or hard plastic "padding" inside the shell.

If your head stops instantly, then your brain matter slams the inside of your skull. Rigid foam does virtually nothing from preventing your head from stopping instantly. We need something to slow it down by a few milliseconds before it stops - a real cushion. Something to help with that, far more than rigid foam does.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

^rigid foam isn't exactly rigid, it slows the impact by a few milliseconds as designed and I'm sure it's prevented or reduced the severity of thousands of concussions. Striving for better is a good thing and I think lots of companies are doing that but that doesn't mean the best existing technology should be dismissed.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Bell Super DH. It is a DH-rated helmet (ASTM F1952 which is a higher level of protection), and has a removable chin guard. It is pricey though. I found an unpopular color for $200 online, they list for an eye-watering $325.

https://www.bellhelmets.com/bike/p/super-dh-mips-mountain-bike-helmet#pid=7113957

https://www.astm.org/Standards/F1952.htm


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## Gurpil23 (Jan 23, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> Bell Super DH. It is a DH-rated helmet (ASTM F1952 which is a higher level of protection), and has a removable chin guard. It is pricey though. I found an unpopular color for $200 online, they list for an eye-watering $325.
> 
> https://www.bellhelmets.com/bike/p/super-dh-mips-mountain-bike-helmet#pid=7113957
> 
> https://www.astm.org/Standards/F1952.htm


This is the one I have been looking at. Like better the shape of the Super 3r but just regular shell and MIPS is not an option anymore for me. They are also releasing the Super Air r for trail riding with no ASTM DH certification. The question is if the low speed absorption of their MIPS spherical is equivalent to what Leatt, Kali or 6D offer. If I understand correctly all of them are trying to address the same issue, but is difficult to compare without testing data.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Outrider66 said:


> A Famous Footwear near me appears to be a dealer for those Pro-Tec Ace skateboard helmets. When I get a chance, I will try to check one out, so I will know about other options when my current $100 TLD helmet needs to be replaced. If the Ace has spongy foam inside that actually cushions, instead of the rigid foam in the TLD, then I will likely get it. Especially if it costs less than $100. Oh, and if it is as comfortable as my TLD.
> 
> Rigid foam is next-to-useless for doing anything to prevent concussions and the like. I can't believe the majority of bike helmet manufacturers haven't gone the route of something better for that, especially since the vast majority of head injuries must be concussions (and the like). A concussion is just a minor TBI.





Outrider66 said:


> It is not false that it is _next to_ useless for preventing bruised brains (concussions). I didn't say completely useless. Rigid foam is somewhat better than wood or hard plastic "padding" inside the shell.
> 
> If your head stops instantly, then your brain matter slams the inside of your skull. Rigid foam does virtually nothing from preventing your head from stopping instantly. We need something to slow it down by a few milliseconds before it stops - a real cushion. Something to help with that, far more than rigid foam does.


I think you need to do a little more reading on the subject, you apparently aren't grasping the forces involved if you think rigid foam in helmets is stopping the head instantly.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Gurpil23 said:


> This is the one I have been looking at. Like better the shape of the Super 3r but just regular shell and MIPS is not an option anymore for me. They are also releasing the Super Air r for trail riding with no ASTM DH certification. The question is if the low speed absorption of their MIPS spherical is equivalent to what Leatt, Kali or 6D offer. If I understand correctly all of them are trying to address the same issue, but is difficult to compare without testing data.


And testing data are troubled by the standard that want a bike helmet to be able to hold at speeds seldom or never will be reached on a bike (on motorbike yes). Hard foam can lead to severe brain damage with low speed so why that is the protection that get 4 and 5 stars in the Virginia test is maybe because they live up to the standard. Product development is way ahead of standards of testing.

I crashed with 20km/h (not high speed) a month ago and my head is still not what it was before the crash. With a 2ndskull I would maybe not have had even a little headache day of crash. That kind of protection inside a helmet, not overall, but on top of the hard foam could be of some use and that is more or less what POC's Spin and 100%-Altec and 6D ATB-1t plus in some ways Kali is coming with in some helmets.

Helmets are getting better and let us hope the standard that allows them to be used as well as testing follow.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Bell Super DH. It is a DH-rated helmet (ASTM F1952 which is a higher level of protection), and has a removable chin guard. It is pricey though. I found an unpopular color for $200 online, they list for an eye-watering $325.


Motorbike helmets cost 600 - 900 and the expensive ones for some pro riders more than 3k$.
If you need a full face helmet https://www.6dhelmets.com/downhill/ they make very good motorbike helmets too.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

what about the new alpine stars super 8M motocross helmet? it is made of 3 layers of foams.


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