# Local shop refuses ebike service?



## westadamsvets (Nov 9, 2010)

Stopped by bike shop near to my house to ask for help with stem and derailleur adjustment and the employee refused citing liability issue with ebikes. I was kind of surprised and tried arguing that the stem and and derailleur were generic bike parts but the guy said it was because of insurance.
Is this a common thing?
I'm in Los Angeles near USC and just got my first ebike.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Did you ask if it was brand related? Will they only service brands they sell or was this just a service shop with no new bikes ( of any kind) for sale. Was your ebike an OEM machine or did you build it yourself? Some places don’t want anything to do with homemade science projects, but a factory made ebike should be a different matter. Then again people are free to be assholes if they want…….. like the guy that made the first response!


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

westadamsvets said:


> Is this a common thing?


It's going to be. Liability insurance needs to underwrite the fire risks posed by eBike batteries, and businesses should be wise to take on no more risk than what's covered by their policy.

The vast range of quality control across the eBike industry makes this a serious issue. Take your bike to the bike-shop where you bought it...their business is insured to cover that risk, and they'll service your bike.


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

A few potential issues I could see:

Weight
Lifting heavier bikes may pose a health & safety risk to employees unless the shop has a powered lift
As you might expect, Park Tool makes one but it's expensive, so they're not terribly common (other than some places in Europe where there are stricter limits on what employees are allowed to lift manually)

Fire
In many cases, working on a bike means the customer needs to leave it overnight
With an ebike, that's also likely to require being able to charge it in order to test things out
Lithium batteries carry an inherent risk of fire / exploding in fires, with the risk increasing as the size of the batteries increases
Not many shops were built with the intent that you'd need relatively fireproof areas to store & charge bikes with high capacity batteries
Even fewer have fire suppression systems installed that are designed for suppressing battery fires


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

TimTucker said:


> A few potential issues I could see:
> 
> Weight
> Lifting heavier bikes may pose a health & safety risk to employees unless the shop has a powered lift
> ...


I might bet that proactive insurers have sent coverage notices out to bike shop insureds about the extra hazards of selling and servicing e-bikes and attempting to restrict coverage to analog bike sales and service.

And have started issuing new policy renewals with extra-cost riders for e-bike sales and service. Probably not prohibitive in cost, but enough to make a marginal bike shop have to do a cost-benefit analysis.

Probably going to become something of an issue in the near future, because e-bikes certainly change the risk profile of bicycle sales and service.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

Many bike shops refuse to work on non-bicycle type e-bikes, i.e. hub drive direct-to-consumer 'mopeds'. E-bikes from Specialized, Trek, Giant, ect use standard bicycle parts and are repairable, but Amazon/Radpower type e-bikes will never work well so trying to fix them and make the customer happy is pretty much pointless. Besides the liability...

Living in a country with so many consumer protections otherwise, I think most folks can't grasp the fact that the $1500 e-bike they bought online is neither safe nor a product with a reasonable lifespan. Quite a few of these things we've turned away from our shop for having brakes that could never function, and the customer insisting that "it was highly rated on Amazon" they don't understand these mopeds are the 'lawn darts' of our generation.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> Many bike shops refuse to work on non-bicycle type e-bikes, i.e. hub drive direct-to-consumer 'mopeds'. E-bikes from Specialized, Trek, Giant, ect use standard bicycle parts and are repairable, but Amazon/Radpower type e-bikes will never work well so trying to fix them and make the customer happy is pretty much pointless. Besides the liability...
> 
> Living in a country with so many consumer protections otherwise, I think most folks can't grasp the fact that the $1500 e-bike they bought online is neither safe nor a product with a reasonable lifespan. Quite a few of these things we've turned away from our shop for having brakes that could never function, and the customer insisting that "it was highly rated on Amazon" they don't understand these mopeds are the 'lawn darts' of our generation.


I suspect it is something else on this because most bike shops will provide service on BSO from big box stores, heck that probably accounts for a lot of their income, so them being barely bikes doesn't stop them. I suspect it is fire insurance or the liability from doing something that stops the electrical part from working right and having to provide replacement out of pocket. On a Walmart bike, chances are that repairs will only make a bike better but an ebike, a repair could damage a sensor or wire and the bike would require specialized repair.

I suspect that the local shade tree mechanic would repair your subaru but wouldn't touch your Chevy bolt with a ten foot pole. Similar concepts I suspect. Fire risk and danger from both battery discharge and damage to the motivation system due to the proprietary and different systems involved.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

not only that, but it could be related to technician training, as well.

shop with technicians trained to service ebikes could more reasonably expect insurance coverage. shop with NO technicians trained to service ebikes is likely going to have a more difficult time being covered if something bad happens after wrenching on an ebike.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

rockcrusher said:


> I suspect it is something else on this because most bike shops will provide service on BSO from big box stores, heck that probably accounts for a lot of their income, so them being barely bikes doesn't stop them. I suspect it is fire insurance or the liability from doing something that stops the electrical part from working right and having to provide replacement out of pocket. On a Walmart bike, chances are that repairs will only make a bike better but an ebike, a repair could damage a sensor or wire and the bike would require specialized repair.
> 
> I suspect that the local shade tree mechanic would repair your subaru but wouldn't touch your Chevy bolt with a ten foot pole. Similar concepts I suspect. Fire risk and danger from both battery discharge and damage to the motivation system due to the proprietary and different systems involved.


At our shop we developed a policy that we will work on anything that will fit through the door under these conditions: when it leaves it has to have functioning brakes, we won't diagnose/attempt to repair electrical issues (except for Bosch), and the customer understands that a $3 derailleur will never shift well. Customers usually remove their batteries before bringing their mopeds into the store. Fixing shifting, brakes and flat tires are an important source of income for our business.

Mid drive e-bikes from reputable companies get treated as regular bicycles.

I installed a Code rear caliper on this bad boy a couple weeks ago. I work on motorcycles as a hobby so it was interesting to use a mix of a motorcycle type rear brake with the Code caliper.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

It's their prerogative. Other than being hard on the back (to get on work stand) I don't have a problem with working on them.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> At our shop we developed a policy that we will work on anything that will fit through the door under these conditions: when it leaves it has to have functioning brakes, we won't diagnose/attempt to repair electrical issues (except for Bosch), and the customer understands that a $3 derailleur will never shift well. Customers usually remove their batteries before bringing their mopeds into the store. Fixing shifting, brakes and flat tires are an important source of income for our business.
> 
> Mid drive e-bikes from reputable companies get treated as regular bicycles.
> 
> I installed a Code rear caliper on this bad boy a couple weeks ago. I work on motorcycles as a hobby so it was interesting to use a mix of a motorcycle type rear brake with the Code caliper.


This seems like the most reasonable policy. I can't imagine not changing a tire or chain on an ebike just because it's an ebike...


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## BuzzinHornets (Sep 17, 2005)

Poor OP, little did he know the mere mention of an eBike would bring the d-bags out. Imagine looking for some legitimate help and being met with this crap. 



GKelley said:


> Good. eBikes need to be refused more places.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

If it were my shop, and my insurance didn't cover the work, I would refuse the work. Period.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

It could be a host of reasons, and diagnosing electrical issues is no small one, but I am guessing there may be exclusions on insurance based on things like this: FIRE The batteries can be removed I suppose, but I would not be storing anything that may combust without proper coverage, and even then the hassle of an incident would not be worth it. Heck, I could see a claim being denied if a battery-less ebike was even present in the shop when a fire started.


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## Yeti3 (Sep 4, 2020)

It's their right to refuse the service. They will change their policy at some point or face declining number of customers...


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

GKelley said:


> Imagine needing a battery on your bike...


Imagine being so triggered about what other people ride that you hang out in a forum about which you have total disdain for the subject.

Oh, and Peter Sagan, Aaron Gwinn, and all the other pros I've seen riding e-bikes say hi...


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

Yet again, making a clear distinction between Shimano, Brose, Bosch, Yamaha or other legitimate mid drive assistance type e-bikes and these mystery branded hub drive Bafang clones (we call those mopeds). Statistically if you own one it won't go up in flames, but if a shop works on and stores hundreds of these over the years they will eventually have a major fire.
I've been talking to other shop owners and managers on a bike shop forum to see how they deal with these issues, and it seems that most shops refuse to work on mopeds, or have a metal trash can filled with sand for the inevitable smoking battery.
Considering most of these things weigh 80lbs, we ask customers to leave the battery off the moped so it's easier to lift and eliminates the danger of fire or a finger cut off, we can't diagnose or fix the electrical systems so no need to turn them on anyways.


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## dashskullsasq (Nov 28, 2019)

TimTucker said:


> A few potential issues I could see:
> 
> Weight
> Lifting heavier bikes may pose a health & safety risk to employees unless the shop has a powered lift
> ...


At least in Portugal, Spain, France no one would piut any kind of problem to lftt an e-bike. In fact, under portuguese legislation, you can lift 30 kg if it is not a repetitive task (goes down to 20 kg if it is too repetitive. But also, it is not defined what is repetitive or not. Usualy count more than 10-20 lifts per 8 hour shift)


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

westadamsvets said:


> Stopped by bike shop near to my house to ask for help with stem and derailleur adjustment and the employee refused citing liability issue with ebikes. I was kind of surprised and tried arguing that the stem and and derailleur were generic bike parts but the guy said it was because of insurance.
> Is this a common thing?
> I'm in Los Angeles near USC and just got my first ebike.


It's the battery and fire risk. It's getting harder and more $$ to get insurance for that so some shops are deciding to not work on e-bikes.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

westadamsvets said:


> Stopped by bike shop near to my house to ask for help with stem and derailleur adjustment and the employee refused citing liability issue with ebikes. I was kind of surprised and tried arguing that the stem and and derailleur were generic bike parts but the guy said it was because of insurance.
> Is this a common thing?
> I'm in Los Angeles near USC and just got my first ebike.


I had the same problem Bike cycle garage BGI the biggest bike shop in Indy sells E bike and used to work on my e bike (I spent over $500 in service ) about two months ago the Service Manger who I have never met before was pretty rude about it and then flatly refused to up grade my brakes I was like its just new brakes BGI INDY SUCKS !!


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

OP, the best thing to do is take this as on opportunity to learn to work on your own bike. It is really simple, everything is online, easily learned on youtube. There is no need to set foot in a bike store.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

GKelley said:


> There's this thing called marketing. It's amazing what people will do for money. 😏


Yeah, it's also amazing to be old and go to the mountains from sea level and be able to ride day after day, for weeks at a time, and cover as much ground and be as fresh as I was in my 30's. Yep, pretty amazing.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Just find another shop. It does not happen here in Colorado. Who knows what some tiny shop has to do to keep their insurance cheap!


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

My shop only services bikes we sell. It's a time and space situation, we have a very good customer base who expects a high level of service. We can get their bike back to them within 72 hours of it being brought in. When we also took in other brands that time was 5-7 days, and often we were jammed up because "big box" bikes just were not being collected in good time after repair.

Third party e-bikes: Never ever, too much liability and we don't have access to diagnostic tools to look at drive and battery condition as we do for the brands we sell.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Buy a set of Allen keys and adjust yourself. 

What is the world coming to when we cant undo and do up bolts?


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## Blurbikerider (Mar 12, 2011)

Will the shops rejecting E-bike work do repairs on bikes with AXS or wireless shifters or bikes with power meters or bikes with lights still attached?


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Blurbikerider said:


> Will the shops rejecting E-bike work do repairs on bikes with AXS or wireless shifters or bikes with power meters or bikes with lights still attached?


I think the difference between a well known system that's an industry standard and something someone buys from Alibaba, Amazon, or builds themselves may be a bit different.


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## remanaz (Oct 1, 2021)

I would imagine there are plenty of shops that sell ebikes and regular bikes in your area. I have several in a 15 mile radius to me in a smaller city than where you are. Heck one is a local multi location store that while sells ebikes at all locations and even has one location that only sells ebikes.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Blurbikerider said:


> Will the shops rejecting E-bike work do repairs on bikes with AXS or wireless shifters or bikes with power meters or bikes with lights still attached?


Do you ask because you don't understand the fire risks associated with each? Or because you don't understand the distinction that liability insurance makes over that risk?


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

vikb said:


> It's the battery and fire risk. It's getting harder and more $$ to get insurance for that so some shops are deciding to not work on e-bikes.


No it is not.

A shop is responsible for the safety of the bike leaving the shop. If they do not know anything about e-bikes, they cannot vouch for the safety of the bike, even if all they touched was the stem.

It is the same reason a bike shop will often hand you a tool to tighten something in your bike, but make you do it outside. If you do it inside of their store, they could be held responsible for your bad work.


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## Blurbikerider (Mar 12, 2011)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> Do you ask because you don't understand the fire risks associated with each? Or because you don't understand the distinction that liability insurance makes over that risk?


Both - anything powered by batteries is a fire risk, so I suppose more batteries means more fire hazard . Sounds like bullshit and the shop just wanted to deny the E-bike , we have a shop here in Florida that does the same , nothing about liability and Insurance excuses.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

If a shop here refused to work on a bike not bought there, they would be out of business in a season. The battery fire risk is really rare but also real, so I can see insurers balking and raising rates, which small shops cannot easily absorb. I'm just guessing but I think insurance is really high nowadays, with all the expensive bikes, shop break-ins, and now the risk of fires even?


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Flyer said:


> If a shop here refused to work on a bike not bought there, they would be out of business in a season. The battery fire risk is really rare but also real, so I can see insurers balking and raising rates, which small shops cannot easily absorb. I'm just guessing but I think insurance is really high nowadays, with all the expensive bikes, shop break-ins, and now the risk of fires even?


I think a lot of places underestimate the cost of insurance for a lot of businesses.

I work in a surgical practice, people always complain about pricing and charges. They think everyone is laughing sitting on piles of cash. Yet they don’t see the bottom line costs of insurance, equipment, payroll, rent, education…

If I was a shop owner and my shop wasn’t covered for an ebike fire, you bet your sweet cheeks that my iron clad policy would be to not let an ebike into my business.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

smashysmashy said:


> No it is not.


The fire risk for e-bikes is certainly a factor in some shops rejecting e-bikes. The issue around liability may also be a reason a shop may choose to reject e-bikes, especially ones from DTC brands.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Bummer, I had to do a lot of posts from trolls, warning given out. If you cannot add to the OP’s concern, please don’t post. 

To the OP, if the shop has not been trained to work on ebikes, I can see why they would not be willing to work on your ebike. These ebikes are heavy and a pain in the arsh to put on the stand. 2nd if the motor is on for any reason and working on the bike, you can lose a finger easily. Just find another shop or honestly a better solution is learn to fix the ebike yourself.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

There is a huge difference between real ebikes and Chinese mopeds.

Most shops should work on real ebikes but finding a shop to work on motorized junk will be harder.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

We wouldn't work on ebikes in our shop either. Or department store bikes, or recumbent or any goofy stuff like trikes. We repaired mostly high end stuff but would gladly work on any kids' bikes.

The main reason we didn't allow ebikes in the doors was because they were eroding our efforts with Forestry on trail building and access with their "I can ride wherever I want attitude" and a lack of trail etiquette. Unfortunately mountain bikers are lumped in with the moped riders here.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> There is a huge difference between real ebikes and Chinese mopeds.
> 
> Most shops should work on real ebikes but finding a shop to work on motorized junk will be harder.


Do we know what bike the OP has? I don't take anything for granted here anymore.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Wasn't the op about tightening a stem or adjusting a derailleur or something? wtf is the big deal? I've got more important things to worry about than potentially self combusting bikes. The world will likely explode first.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Wasn't the op about tightening a stem or adjusting a derailleur or something? wtf is the big deal? I've got more important things to worry about than potentially self combusting bikes. The world will likely explode first.


Bike shops have to worry about their insurance not covering their losses /damages in the event of a fire or other disaster. Even if the eBike didn’t cause it, it gives the insurance company a reason to deny the claim.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Wasn't the op about tightening a stem or adjusting a derailleur or something? wtf is the big deal? I've got more important things to worry about than potentially self combusting bikes.


I don't disagree. My cold read on this was some mail order bike that the shop was like 'I'm not getting into all that'.. but who knows?

Personally, I've always tried to be a helpful wrench regardless of the situation but I can understand a shop's position.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Bike shops have to worry about their insurance not covering their losses /damages in the event of a fire or other disaster.



They don't have to worry about that stuff. They can if they want of course.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> They don't have to worry about that stuff. They can if they want of course.


Huh? 

They don’t have to worry about their business being destroyed and their insurance not covering it???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

Insurance companies are the new Mafia....


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

8 hrs goes by since deleting many posts, handing out warning/points and yet I still had to delete a few more posts this morning from trolls. If you got nothing to add, then resist the temptation to become a troll.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

The OP, who’s posted seven times in 12 years, posts some gibberish and doesn’t return to clarify. I think maybe you’re not looking at the proper troll.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Blatant said:


> The OP, who’s posted seven times in 12 years, posts some gibberish and doesn’t return to clarify. I think maybe you’re not looking at the proper troll.


Or maybe people that enjoy ebikes still feel a little intimidated to post on this site! Thank goodness, with each year, there seem to be less trolls and more acceptance to ebikes 👍🏼 Unfortunately there are a few that may get a temp. banned in the meantime👍🏼

Anti ebikers will remain anti until they are not. I know quite a few ebikers that use to hate ebikes and nothing you could say to them would change their mind. Now they ride their ebikes with more fun then they’ve ever had on a bike and many, especially the older riders wished they’d started sooner.


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## letusride (Mar 25, 2007)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> At our shop we developed a policy that we will work on anything that will fit through the door under these conditions: when it leaves it has to have functioning brakes, we won't diagnose/attempt to repair electrical issues (except for Bosch), and the customer understands that a $3 derailleur will never shift well. Customers usually remove their batteries before bringing their mopeds into the store. Fixing shifting, brakes and flat tires are an important source of income for our business.
> 
> Mid drive e-bikes from reputable companies get treated as regular bicycles.
> 
> I installed a Code rear caliper on this bad boy a couple weeks ago. I work on motorcycles as a hobby so it was interesting to use a mix of a motorcycle type rear brake with the Code caliper.


Two rear calipers, interesting. So are you running a foot brake (motorcycle type brake) with the code? I always wanted to splice a hand lever on to my KTM for the rear brake for easier wheelies. The KTM Freeride E-XC has the perfect setup, left-hand rear brake, right-hand front brake, throttle and nothing else except power setting.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

We had a bike brand that had internal wiring shifting back when that technology was brand new. It was a 10k-12k bike roughly from a well known manufacturer. You don't want to know how long it took to diagnose the shifting issues, the company sending all the wrong parts, and the owner of the bike getting upset with the local shop and calling the company himself. Electrical issues are a nightmare. I can see why any shop who has been down this road may refuse service.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

mtbbiker said:


> Anti ebikers will remain anti until they are not. I know quite a few ebikers that use to hate ebikes and nothing you could say to them would change their mind. Now they ride their ebikes with more fun then they’ve ever had on a bike and many, especially the older riders wished they’d started sooner.


I have seen the high end road versions completely change someone's perspective on riding a bike for the better. We all know our bodies slowly decline with age. An ebike gave this person who was having heart issues a new lease on life. Riding a bike was his way of seeing friends, socializing, and enjoying life. Another lady who has an extremely fit husband can now go on rides with him and the group without being off the back suffering. It's been completely transformative for them. It's been a joy just to watch.


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## pcrussell50 (Apr 10, 2018)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> It's going to be. Liability insurance needs to underwrite the fire risks posed by eBike batteries, and businesses should be wise to take on no more risk than what's covered by their policy.
> 
> The vast range of quality control across the eBike industry makes this a serious issue. Take your bike to the bike-shop where you bought it...their business is insured to cover that risk, and they'll service your bike.


Not only this, but it’s not going to be limited to just e-bikes. Battery cars in Europe are already starting to be banned from parking in underground structures because of the frequency of spontaneous combustion events, the heat and intensity of lithium fires, combined with the difficulty of getting heavy firefighting equipment into high density underground garages with low ceilings. 

The whole landscape of liability insurance and regulatory “best practices“ is bring re written as we speak, to cover the unique risks and challenges (electrocution, and fire), of battery transportation machines. Once it’s all hashed out and mature, whatever it looks like will be the new normal and threads like this will become moot.

-Peter


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## peterj59 (Feb 25, 2021)

westadamsvets said:


> Stopped by bike shop near to my house to ask for help with stem and derailleur adjustment and the employee refused citing liability issue with ebikes. I was kind of surprised and tried arguing that the stem and and derailleur were generic bike parts but the guy said it was because of insurance.
> Is this a common thing?
> I'm in Los Angeles near USC and just got my first ebike.
> good, its not a bicycle yu bought a motor vehicle, too bad, do you think now bicycle mechanics have to learn how to fix lectric vehicles, give me a break, shouldnt have been lazy and bought a pedal bike,
> bring it to a motorcycle shop and dont bother your local bike shop


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

letusride said:


> Two rear calipers, interesting. So are you running a foot brake (motorcycle type brake) with the code? I always wanted to splice a hand lever on to my KTM for the rear brake for easier wheelies. The KTM Freeride E-XC has the perfect setup, left-hand rear brake, right-hand front brake, throttle and nothing else except power setting.


The kid that owns the Sur Ron also is a good bicycle customer so I was willing to help him with that project. He bought a kit that had a motorcycle type foot brake designed to connect to a Code caliper, it included a hose, fitting and all the adapters. He is also a proficient dirt bike rider so I guess that's why he wanted a foot brake?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

FrankS29 said:


> I think a lot of places underestimate the cost of insurance for a lot of businesses.
> 
> I work in a surgical practice, people always complain about pricing and charges. They think everyone is laughing sitting on piles of cash. Yet they don’t see the bottom line costs of insurance, equipment, payroll, rent, education…
> 
> If I was a shop owner and my shop wasn’t covered for an ebike fire, you bet your sweet cheeks that my iron clad policy would be to not let an ebike into my business.


I own a very small business. No claims, no changes, my insurance increased 164% this past year.

I then spent an enormous amount of resources and time shopping for different insurance options. Not kidding, I have at least 60 hours in to the process of locating new business insurance and got the annual increase down to around about a 90% increase, which still saved me 5 figures. But jeez what a pita.

The thing is, it's just a side hustle with 2 employees so all of this time comes at a real cost.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

TwiceHorn said:


> I might bet that proactive insurers have sent coverage notices out to bike shop insureds about the extra hazards of selling and servicing e-bikes and attempting to restrict coverage to analog bike sales and service.
> 
> And have started issuing new policy renewals with extra-cost riders for e-bike sales and service. Probably not prohibitive in cost, but enough to make a marginal bike shop have to do a cost-benefit analysis.
> 
> Probably going to become something of an issue in the near future, because e-bikes certainly change the risk profile of bicycle sales and service.


Well, they will go out of business, because e bikes will be, if not already the major part of new sales.

And soon major part of service.

It's ideology.

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


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## pcrussell50 (Apr 10, 2018)

TwiceHorn said:


> I might bet that proactive insurers have sent coverage notices out to bike shop insureds about the extra hazards of selling and servicing e-bikes and attempting to restrict coverage to analog bike sales and service.
> 
> And have started issuing new policy renewals with extra-cost riders for e-bike sales and service. Probably not prohibitive in cost, but enough to make a marginal bike shop have to do a cost-benefit analysis.
> 
> Probably going to become something of an issue in the near future, because e-bikes certainly change the risk profile of bicycle sales and service.


Somewhere down the road, e-bike riders/owners will probably be facing some new questions from their own insurers as well. With rates that will likely reflect something more like any other motorized vehicle. I'm guessing the days of buying an e-bike and just flying under the radar of the insurance companies as if it's no more than an ordinary bicycle (push-bike), are numbered.

As I said in a previous post, the battery "revolution" is changing the landscape of insurance coverage, both for owners and businesses, as actuarial data is being hashed out in the halls of the insurance industry as we speak.

-Peter


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

pcrussell50 said:


> Somewhere down the road, e-bike riders/owners will probably be facing some new questions from their own insurers as well. With rates that will likely reflect something more like any other motorized vehicle. I'm guessing the days of buying an e-bike and just flying under the radar of the insurance companies as if it's no more than an ordinary bicycle (push-bike), are numbered.
> 
> As I said in a previous post, the battery "revolution" is changing the landscape of insurance coverage, both for owners and businesses, as actuarial data is being hashed out in the


 A couple of years ago I ran a 125cc Taiwan scooter with Florida tags and a year of insurance was just under $70, if it had been a nearly identical 50cc it would have been 2/3’s the cost. I can’t see how insuring an ebike would cost any more. A dollar a week isn’t going to be prohibitive for anyone.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Many people were discussing fires and batteries. I was originally looking for an article about a gentleman who lost his home due to a battery from a chinese light, but found this instead. In short, ebike battery burns shop down and of course insurance didn't cover the damage. The business owner had to start a GoFundMe. 

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/e-bike-battery-fire-destroys-florida-bike-shop.html

Fire Destroys Andante Bike Shop, organized by Mauricio Orozco


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## pcrussell50 (Apr 10, 2018)

WoodlandHills said:


> A couple of years ago I ran a 125cc Taiwan scooter with Florida tags and a year of insurance was just under $70, if it had been a nearly identical 50cc it would have been 2/3’s the cost. I can’t see how insuring an ebike would cost any more. A dollar a week isn’t going to be prohibitive for anyone.


who said anything about it being prohibitive? All I said was that the insurance companies are on it and you can bet they are studying the data. Hard. And coming up with whatever plans they feel are necessary to stay in business and compete with other insurers. 

We got a trampoline for the girls a couple of years ago. It’s costing us nothing extra … because any losses associated with it are already declined coverage. If someone is hurt on our trampoline, it’s on us.

our rich in-laws built a pool… with a simple low diving board. After they went through holy hell just finding a pool contractor willing to install one, they pay out the a** for liability coverage.

Somewhere down the line the prospective e-bike owner will have to know whether he is covered or not and how much he is willing to pay, or if coverage is even offered.

this is not a time to have your head in the sand as whatever is coming down the road will still come.

-peter


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Rod said:


> Many people were discussing fires and batteries. I was originally looking for an article about a gentleman who lost his home due to a battery from a chinese light, but found this instead. In short, ebike battery burns shop down and of course insurance didn't cover the damage. The business owner had to start a GoFundMe.
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/e-bike-battery-fire-destroys-florida-bike-shop.html
> 
> Fire Destroys Andante Bike Shop, organized by Mauricio Orozco


Battery fire is a special case. Theoretically the manufacturer or retailer should be on the hook for a faulty product like that.

I have dozens of power tool batteries lying around. They are smaller, yes, but they are the exact same cells and tech, and they get abused, dropped, thrown, and it is almost unheard of for one to cause a fire. A 500wh bike battery is not really any different (car battery is more complex), so there should be no fire concerns.

To that end, I could see a refusal of storing unknown no name or unfamiliar e bikes with worries they are made poorly. But a blanket 'ban" even on non electrical on demand repairs is a bit overboard for battery concerns. Liability concerns absolutely, but not battery.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

rod9301 said:


> Well, they will go out of business, because e bikes will be, if not already the major part of new sales.
> 
> And soon major part of service.
> 
> ...


I suspect not, as insurance companies and regulatory agencies continue acknowledging the key differences between regular bicycles and ebikes. ebikes are in fad status right now. That fad will cool down, as all fads do, and the bicycle industry will move on to the next fad.

some shops will support ebikes and others will not. and I doubt that whatever decision a shop makes in that regard will spell doom for them.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> Battery fire is a special case. Theoretically the manufacturer or retailer should be on the hook for a faulty product like that.
> 
> I have dozens of power tool batteries lying around. They are smaller, yes, but they are the exact same cells and tech, and they get abused, dropped, thrown, and it is almost unheard of for one to cause a fire. A 500wh bike battery is not really any different (car battery is more complex), so there should be no fire concerns.
> 
> To that end, I could see a refusal of storing unknown no name or unfamiliar e bikes with worries they are made poorly. But a blanket 'ban" even on non electrical on demand repairs is a bit overboard for battery concerns. Liability concerns absolutely, but not battery.


even if a fire has some other mundane cause, a shop full of ebike batteries changes the dynamics of that fire. I don't think it's a special case at all.

battery fires in small devices do happen with some regularity. you can find plenty of reports about people's phones bursting into flames. laptops. earbuds. "hoverboards". CARS. etc etc. It happens. yes, it happens more with cheap batteries (and especially with trash chargers) than with quality ones. but it still happens.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Harold said:


> even if a fire has some other mundane cause, a shop full of ebike batteries changes the dynamics of that fire. I don't think it's a special case at all.


Very good point, the batteries do not have to start the fire and they can very much accelerate it. I wonder what a hardware stores insurance is like to carry power tools and if any stores "refuse".

I know getting a woodworking shop space is borderline impossible these days. Landlord does not want the risks.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> Yet again, making a clear distinction between Shimano, Brose, Bosch, Yamaha or other legitimate mid drive assistance type e-bikes and these mystery branded hub drive Bafang clones (we call those mopeds). Statistically if you own one it won't go up in flames, but if a shop works on and stores hundreds of these over the years they will eventually have a major fire.
> I've been talking to other shop owners and managers on a bike shop forum to see how they deal with these issues, and it seems that most shops refuse to work on mopeds, or have a metal trash can filled with sand for the inevitable smoking battery.
> Considering most of these things weigh 80lbs, we ask customers to leave the battery off the moped so it's easier to lift and eliminates the danger of fire or a finger cut off, we can't diagnose or fix the electrical systems so no need to turn them on anyways.


I'd never take my bike to any shop that referred to my ebike as a moped, and I'd make damn sure to tell everyone I knew that they were anti-ebike.


.


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## pcrussell50 (Apr 10, 2018)

Harold said:


> battery fires in small devices do happen with some regularity. you can find plenty of reports about people's phones bursting into flames. laptops. earbuds. "hoverboards". CARS. etc etc. It happens. yes, it happens more with cheap batteries (and especially with trash chargers) than with quality ones. but it still happens.


this ^^^ exactly. The airlines are already telling you not search for your phone if you lost it in your seat because they are afraid of recline it or un-recline it, you might damage it and start a fire. Lithium fires an airplanes a very very bad mojo. Also there are severe restrictions on what you you can carry in the way of rechargeable batteries, and where and how you can carry them. It’s no joke.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

_CJ said:


> I'd never take my bike to any shop that referred to my ebike as a moped, and I'd make damn sure to tell everyone I knew that they were anti-ebike.
> 
> 
> .


I am pretty sure given his statement. He is referring to things like these which IMO are 100% mopeds. RCR - 72V 

Not something like a Specialized e-bike.


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

Harold said:


> battery fires in small devices do happen with some regularity. you can find plenty of reports about people's phones bursting into flames. laptops. earbuds. "hoverboards". CARS. etc etc. It happens. yes, it happens more with cheap batteries (and especially with trash chargers) than with quality ones. but it still happens.


I lost a dear friend in the Conception dive boat fire a few years back, and all indications are that it was charging cell phone batteries that started it. It may be a rare occurrence but it is a real one with real consequences. I've been cautious to the point of paranoia with my bike battery since.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

_CJ said:


> I'd never take my bike to any shop that referred to my ebike as a moped, and I'd make damn sure to tell everyone I knew that they were anti-ebike.
> 
> 
> .


I'm not anti e-bike in the slightest. Ever since I was diagnosed with MS I have only ridden e-bikes. I also enjoy riding motorcycles. Selling and promoting e-bikes is a major part of our business.

What I don't understand is why you think moped is an insult. Mopeds were an incredibly useful vehicle that gained popularity before I was born and I don't know why they fell out of common use. The term simply in short for motor-pedal, the two means of propulsion that vehicle uses. I would never refer to an e-bike as a 'motorcycle', because that is a different machine. But a two wheeled vehicle that has a motor for primary propulsion with pedals to assist the motor (and make it legal to ride without a motorcycle license) is, you guessed it, _a moped._

Why do you think moped is an insult? It makes no sense.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

93EXCivic said:


> I am pretty sure given his statement. He is referring to things like these which IMO are 100% mopeds. RCR - 72V
> 
> Not something like a Specialized e-bike.


If the primary (like 750 watt motor) means of propulsion is a motor with a throttle, where pedaling is not needed but optional, it's a moped. A Turbo Levo (like the one in my avatar) can only be propelled by pedaling, so therefore it's electric-assist. You don't pedal, it don't move. Calling it a moped too is fine in my opinion, there's a big difference between pedal assist and pedal optional.

I like riding my BMW R1200GS. I refer to it as an ADV bike because other people use the term and understand it. Some refer to it as a 'dual sport' which I think is silly, but it doesn't _offend_ me. 

For CJ to think the term 'moped' is offensive or that me using the term in a different way than they do would give them reason to try to destroy our livelyhood blows my mind. I have an e-bike in my avatar for heaven's sake! I sell e-bikes, and do guided e-bike rides on local trails! Nobody has been offended by my casual use of the word so far.


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## pcrussell50 (Apr 10, 2018)

Horseshoe said:


> I lost a dear friend in the Conception dive boat fire a few years back, and all indications are that it was charging cell phone batteries that started it. It may be a rare occurrence but it is a real one with real consequences. I've been cautious to the point of paranoia with my bike battery since.


I hear that. I don’t have an e-bike but I do have an e-skateboard. And I use li-po batteries* for (lighter weight more capacity), but I don’t skimp on my chargers, and only use individual cell monitoring and the ability to read the internal resistance of each cell individually. The gold standard.

*plus there is no easier egress than from a burning skateboar, lol

===

Oh, and doesn’t mo-ped = motor + pedals. Not sure where the negativity comes from? Yesterday and today, gas or batter, a brilliant idea for people don’t need a car and don’t want to commit to a motorcycle. 

I have a gas powered standup scooter for longer ranges, and an e-skateboard for shorter haul. Because of the weight of batteries, the 25cc scooter is actually a little bit lighter, too. 

-Peter


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> I'm not anti e-bike in the slightest. Ever since I was diagnosed with MS I have only ridden e-bikes. I also enjoy riding motorcycles. Selling and promoting e-bikes is a major part of our business.
> 
> What I don't understand is why you think moped is an insult. Mopeds were an incredibly useful vehicle that gained popularity before I was born and I don't know why they fell out of common use. The term simply in short for motor-pedal, the two means of propulsion that vehicle uses. I would never refer to an e-bike as a 'motorcycle', because that is a different machine. But a two wheeled vehicle that has a motor for primary propulsion with pedals to assist the motor (and make it legal to ride without a motorcycle license) is, you guessed it, _a moped._
> 
> Why do you think moped is an insult? It makes no sense.


In general: motor means electric and engine mean internal combustion. 

A moped is an engine with pedals. Most of those engines are about 3hp, so about 3 times more powerful then any of the 3 classes of Ebikes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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