# Carbon disaster. Is it ruined!??



## schlim (Aug 20, 2006)

I may have just destroyed my new (unridden) carbon Orbea Alma frame. Last night, I was installing the front derailleur with a torque wench set to 5Nm (~50in lb.) and the clearcoat went cloudy under the clamp. The wrench never clicked. The same wrench has worked fine on brakes, stems clamping carbon handlebars, etc. So much for $100 of insurance I thought I got with a torque wrench. 

There is a small visible divot in the seat tube and the clearcoat has turned white around it. Is the frame ruined? If so, do I have a warranty claim since I was using a correctly calibrated torque wrench to correct specs?


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## capn 35 (Oct 19, 2007)

FWIW, the paint (yours is clear, obviously) on my HIFI Carbon Pro did the same thing at the FD. That was the way that it came from Trek. I haven't noticed any problems, and perhaps yours is okay too? That doesn't make it look any better though...


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*Taiwan tool?*



schlim said:


> I may have just destroyed my new (unridden) carbon Orbea Alma frame. Last night, I was installing the front derailleur with a torque wench set to 5Nm (~50in lb.) and the clearcoat went cloudy under the clamp. The wrench never clicked. The same wrench has worked fine on brakes, stems clamping carbon handlebars, etc. So much for $100 of insurance I thought I got with a torque wrench.
> 
> There is a small visible divot in the seat tube and the clearcoat has turned white around it. Is the frame ruined? If so, do I have a warranty claim since I was using a correctly calibrated torque wrench to correct specs?


it does not look that good indeed. but sometimes i wonder when people torque down on tiny bolts.even when you have a torque wrench you should have that feel in your fingers when enough is enough. i don't have such a tool but never had something alike happen. now in your defence i guess the wrench is a cheap model. but to get such a sign in carbon it really needs some force...that's where i blame your feel regardless of the wrench on hand.

you won't get that warrantied anyway so your only option is to ride. the seattube in that location isn't that much stressed. i don't think that's much of a problem anyway. i would be more scared if you used that same wrech on your stems bolts!!


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## schlim (Aug 20, 2006)

Any chance of the seat tube de-laminating? Frame failure? Or do you think the damage is just cosmetic?

I'm more concerned about the frame than the handlebar. Bars are cheap compared to a full frame. The stem and brake bolts felt fine when I checked them by feel after using the torque wrench. My feel using a normal allen wrench is good. With the added leverage of a torque wrench, it's difficult to determine "tight". Which is the whole point measuring force in the first place. The wrench is a Sears model that I thought would be better than the cheaper Park beam wrench.



nino said:


> it does not look that good indeed. but sometimes i wonder when people torque down on tiny bolts.even when you have a torque wrench you should have that feel in your fingers when enough is enough. i don't have such a tool but never had something alike happen. now in your defence i guess the wrench is a cheap model. but to get such a sign in carbon it really needs some force...that's where i blame your feel regardless of the wrench on hand.
> 
> you won't get that warrantied anyway so your only option is to ride. the seattube in that location isn't that much stressed. i don't think that's much of a problem anyway. i would be more scared if you used that same wrech on your stems bolts!!


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

First thing is for delicate items and torque settings, people, don't use a click wrench! Use one of those beam styles. They work!

Second, call the manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised if they say the frame is toast. You don't trust the tool; trust all of your senses, including your eyes! Stop when you see something happening!


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

That does not look good.

You should send an email to Calfee
http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm

Non crtical clamps I never use a torque wrench. I go by feel and judgment on shifters, derailleurs, headset preload, etc.

The only places I use a torque wrench are:
Stem
pedals
bottom brackets
disc brake rotor bolts
disc brake mounting hardware for the caliper
seatpost clamp
saddle clamps

even then I torque in two stages, with the torque wrench set to 50% of requried torque value, then a final tightening to the requested torque.


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## schlim (Aug 20, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> First thing is for delicate items and torque settings, people, don't use a click wrench! Use one of those beam styles. They work!
> 
> Second, call the manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised if they say the frame is toast. You don't trust the tool; trust all of your senses, including your eyes! Stop when you see something happening!


I already feel crummy. An extra lecture on what I should have done doesn't help.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

schlim said:


> I already feel crummy. An extra lecture on what I should have done doesn't help.


SO go and contact Calfee designs

http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm

I doubt it would cost that much.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

schlim said:


> I already feel crummy. An extra lecture on what I should have done doesn't help.


It's not a lecture to you, it's a lecture to others. This is a forum for consumers and DIYers, and this way we can help one another.

And I doubt it's going to be warranty. That's stretching it.

I also don't agree with Nino saying a seat tube is not stressed highly in that zone. On the contrary, it's subject to a extremely wide range of forces due to pedaling and impacts. Then comes the local forces placed on it by the derailleur, which can't be discounted.


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## mtb143 (Aug 26, 2007)

I bet Calfee tells you that it's just the clear coat on top of the carbon. I wager it's just cosmetic and still ridable. Good luck getting Sears to compensate you if you try to go that route.


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## Tiffster (Jan 30, 2008)

Looks bad - you've indented the carbon which will have damaged the carbon weave affecting integraty at that point - which will spread.


I don't have a torque wrench either, imo a good mechanic doesn't need one!


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## iClique (Oct 7, 2008)

Looks like you might not have anything to worry about. Carbon fiber is not white underneath, what you have is just a carbon fiber cloth wrap over aluminum. It's just a thin layer of carbon fiber cloth to give the appearance of carbon fiber for cosmetic purposes. You can tell from the first photo as you can see a shadow of the wrap under as it curls up. Think of it as expensive wrapping paper!

Take a look here...
http://diyautomods.com/2008/03/03/hello-world/


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

iClique said:


> Looks like you might not have anything to worry about. Carbon fiber is not white underneath, what you have is just a carbon fiber cloth wrap over aluminum. It's just a thin layer of carbon fiber cloth to give the appearance of carbon fiber for cosmetic purposes. You can tell from the first photo as you can see a shadow of the wrap under as it curls up. Think of it as expensive wrapping paper!
> 
> Take a look here...
> http://diyautomods.com/2008/03/03/hello-world/


If you think an Orbea Alma Mountain Bike Frame is merely just an Aluminum Frame with a cosmetic fiberglass carbon look-a-like finish over top you are sadly mistaken.

What has happened to the damaged area is that the carbon has been crushed and the clear coat has separated from the damaged carbon causing a change in the reflected light. Carbon tubing when used in bicycles are designed to take purely a compression force on it's face and does a great job at it. Problem is if you want to take advantage of Carbon composites in bicycles you will optimize the tube so that it takes such compressive forces along it's face, but not along the other axes or planes, which makes it poor during crashes as the wall of the tube is not designed to take impact loads.


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## Megaclocker (Sep 28, 2005)

Never trusted a torque wrench, and never will.

My senses FTW.

Never had a single problem.


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## civil (Feb 13, 2008)

iClique said:


> Looks like you might not have anything to worry about. Carbon fiber is not white underneath, what you have is just a carbon fiber cloth wrap over aluminum. It's just a thin layer of carbon fiber cloth to give the appearance of carbon fiber for cosmetic purposes.


Not quite.........in fact not even close.

OP, it sucks that it happened using a calibrated wrench........good luck proving that though in a warranty claim unless the company is good.

To me it looks like a clear coat issue, not structural. But that's an opinion....so yeah.

Definitely e-mail Orbea and see what they say, hope it works out for you.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

Megaclocker said:


> Never trusted a torque wrench, and never will.
> 
> My senses FTW.
> 
> Never had a single problem.


That derailleur clamp should only have been done up snug enough to prevent the clamp from rotating and that is it.

as for trusting torque wrenches...

Yes and No.

No, I do not trust uncalibrated torque wrenches. Yes, I trust calibrated torque wrenches that are working properly.

Proper torquing of the fastener insures, that the fastner will:

A.) Not fail by you exceeding the yield strength of the fastener
B.) Fastener will not fail by cyclic fatigue if not enough preload is on the fastener in dynamic environments. 
C.) Proper clamp force is achieved between the two surface being held (clamped) by the fastener(s)
D.) The correct preload is given to the fastener (function of the torque applied) so that the fastener does not become undone

Millions of dollars are spent by industries world wide to ensure that torque wrenches are performing correctly and calibrated. In the aerospace industry we torque all critical fasteners in two stages to ensure we do not fool ourselves that the final torque is reached with the heavy influence of the running torque and to let the stress on the fasteners settle down.

A torque wrench is set at the calculated torque setting by the engineer, the qualified technician sets the torque setting or dial/needle to the requested torque setting, The torque wrench is then tested on a torque cell that is sent out every 6 months to be recalibrated, QA verifies that when the technician installs the torque wrench onto the torque cell the "click" is at the desired torque setting. Paper work is signed off. Technician will torque the actual fastener with QA present to verify for the audible click.


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

I really don`t like carbon fiber.
In our days, the use of carbon fiber (heave) is pre-historic and I would like to see something more advance.
Plys, layers, vacum... temperature... etc... it`s so much variations... some much errors to be induced!

Yes it`s the future, but not with the technology of our days. 
IMO, Easton is in the right direction with their carbon fiber handlebars (frames --> BMC).

:incazzato: - a bit of topic!

But let`s talk about your frame.
Without seeing it, and feeling it, it`s difficult to examin with a couple of pictures, but it looks to me it`s only the clear coat damage and maybe one of the first layer.

If the frame was mine, I would ignore!

You can try the tap test. Simply tap de seat tube, and ear the sound. If in the damage zone you ear something really different then report it! Ok?

PS - try to use something not so hard (a bit of hard rubber would be ok) to tap, ok?


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## iClique (Oct 7, 2008)

Cheers! said:


> If you think an Orbea Alma Mountain Bike Frame is merely just an Aluminum Frame with a cosmetic fiberglass carbon look-a-like finish over top you are sadly mistaken.


Well as you can clearly see here damaged carbon fiber which is not just a wrap does not turn WHITE!


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## iClique (Oct 7, 2008)

Orbea doesn’t really advertise that they do full custom aluminium frames, but they do. 

Aren't their carbon fiber frames coming from Taiwan?

They have a variety of frames... Ti/Carbon Steel/Carbon Aluminum/Carbon

So it's not impossible that your seat tube is aluminum/Ti/steel with a carbon wrap


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## schlim (Aug 20, 2006)

Email to Calfee sent. Here's hoping for good news. I'll take the bike into the shop where I bought it when they reopen on Tuesday so they can check in with Orbea. :cryin:



Cheers! said:


> SO go and contact Calfee designs
> 
> http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm
> 
> I doubt it would cost that much.


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## schlim (Aug 20, 2006)

Megaclocker said:


> Never trusted a torque wrench, and never will.
> 
> My senses FTW.
> 
> Never had a single problem.


Neither had I until I bought this blasted thing. It's going back.


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## Hardtailforever (Feb 11, 2004)

It's possible that the clearcoat simply separated because you damaged a bit of cosmetic carbon wrap (a layer protecting the structural unidirectional carbon underneath). I've seen this happen with seatposts and even steer tubes without any actual failure. In any case, whenever there is a weave pattern, you're dealing with a cosmetic carbon layer which can be completely destroyed without necessarily causing structural damage underneath. See what Calfee says.

Another test you can do (this one is subjective, but in my experience indicative of structural failure or not) is to tap on the frame with a coin and listen to the sound it makes. If the sound is consistent as you tap along the seat tube, you're probably fine. If you hear a hollowness or dullness in the sound as you tap over the affected area, you likely have structural damage.


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## rd3 (Mar 18, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about that mark, it just looks cosmetic. The clearcoat got pinched in the space where the derailleur tightens and separated from the carbon underneath it. I would build it and ride.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

Hardtailforever said:


> It's possible that the clearcoat simply separated because you damaged a bit of cosmetic carbon wrap (a layer protecting the structural unidirectional carbon underneath). I've seen this happen with seatposts and even steer tubes without any actual failure. In any case, whenever there is a weave pattern, you're dealing with a cosmetic carbon layer which can be completely destroyed without necessarily causing structural damage underneath. See what Calfee says.
> 
> Another test you can do (this one is subjective, but in my experience indicative of structural failure or not) is to tap on the frame with a coin and listen to the sound it makes. If the sound is consistent as you tap along the seat tube, you're probably fine. If you hear a hollowness or dullness in the sound as you tap over the affected area, you likely have structural damage.


I agree the clearcoat sperated from the carbon cosmetic layer. But realize that carbon tubes don't just compress and spring back. Also in order for only the cosmetic layer to be damaged only it would have to have had a gap or space below it in between the cosmetic layer and the "real" structural carbon for the cosmetic weave to be damaged and not rest of the tube. It is doubtful even the crappiest manufacturer would leave voids between the cosmetic layer and the structural layers.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*laquer...*

what we see in that bright spot for sure is the laquer that separated but there is an indent underneath which has nothing to do with the laquer! it comes from too much pressure of the clamp! i would be very,very surprised if they warranty a cent here! if anyone has to warranty it would be the wrench-manufacturer!

good-luck!


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

I do remain convinced that carbon is not the best material for bike frames, rims and, to the lesser degree, cranks. YMMV.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*well...*



Curmy said:


> I do remain convinced that carbon is not the best material for bike frames, rims and, to the lesser degree, cranks. YMMV.


carbon is THE best material! it is just the guys doing the wrenching that need to re-think. you would have the same ding in a lightweight aluminium frame...


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## liam2051 (Apr 19, 2008)

Im with iclique on this one, to me it looks like there could be a aluminum ring placed below the carbon wrap at the derailer clamp point, I mean industry does this when making handlebars so I guess its atleast possible


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## ginsu2k (Jul 28, 2006)

Well, nino is right about that being an area of relatively low stress. I have done plenty of FEA analysis on frames (although carbon is not a material I have tried yet). Most of the stress on bike frames happens near the tube junctions and luckily he's a decent distance away from the bottom bracket junction. 

If it were to fail it would probably fail under sprinting loads as the torque is what twists the bottom bracket and stresses that area the most. If you choose to ride the bike I would run smaller chain rings, or shorter crank arms and not crank while standing up. It is also likely to show signs of fatigue before catastrophic failure, so I would watch it closely. Although, denting a tube makes it prone to buckling and unfortunately, buckling happens nearly spontaneously!


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

nino said:


> carb*i*n is THE best material! it is just the guys doing the wrenching that need to re-think. you would have the same ding in a lightweight aluminium frames...


I am not worrying about dinging caused by my hands. I am worried about dinging caused by roots and rocks. Last time I have checked there had been no torque wrenches attached to trail debris to carefully measure the allowed strength of impact.

Or, is Carb*i*n some secret stronger version of carbon?  Like you secret new tubes (come on, spill the beans)..


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## gotboostedvr6 (Sep 1, 2008)

Ride it till it breaks.... cause fixing it or replacing it will be too much $


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## momentum... (Dec 14, 2007)

If it was me I'd ride it as hard as normal and see what happens. It'll probably be fine and even if it breaks the outcome is unlikely to be that bad. But that's just me!


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

That is just the clearcoat peeling, or comming of the carbon. I wouldnt be so worried about it.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

sergio_pt said:


> That is just the clearcoat peeling, or comming of the carbon. I wouldnt be so worried about it.


I guess you also have not seen the shape of the tube is no longer the way it was made.


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## TheDon (Oct 18, 2005)

iClique said:


> Orbea doesn't really advertise that they do full custom aluminium frames, but they do.
> 
> Aren't their carbon fiber frames coming from Taiwan?
> 
> ...


Are you trolling???

Do you really think Orbea will sell a frame it claims to be full carbon and lie AND that no-one would notice, it is easy to tell the difference from the sound of the tube if you gently flick it.

And even if it was just a cosmetic cover, applying pressure to it would not reveal the aluminum underneath. Have you never seen damage to lacquer before, it separates from the underlying surface making it look foggy.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

I cannot believe youguys are suggesting torque wrenches are somehow bad. That is insane. Yes the beam model is nice b/c you can see as you approach the right value instead of only when you get there, but still it is ridiculous to suggest that a "real" mechanic doesn't need a torque wrench. And btw I don't use a torque wrench b/c I did not want to spend the money on one I would rather buy parts for my bike, but I do borrow one once in awhile when it is essential to do something correctly.


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## cmh (Jan 30, 2004)

I skimmed this thread so might have missed if someone else mentioned it, but I've seen it said that for a carbon fork you can check for damage by taking it out of the bike, taking all the parts off, and hitting the end with your hand. If it's good, it will hum like a tuning fork. If it's not, it'll buzz or rattle. Not a perfect solution, I believe it's still possible to be damaged without making a buzz, but something to test. If it fails that test, you _know_ it's toast.

Now, for your frame, you might be able to do the same test by stripping the frame down. Last time I cleaned my CF road bike, I tried that test with the frame, and nearly crapped myself when I heard a buzz instead of a nice hum. Turns out I had a loose water bottle bolt I hadn't pulled out. WHEW. Was all good after that.

Ultimately, though, your real best bet is to see if the manuf offers an X-ray service. AFAIK most carbon frame manufacturers will X-ray your frame (or carbon part) to check for any structural damage. I _believe_ aside from shipping, it's also usually a no-cost service. Call Orbea, talk to them and see what they have to say. Or, deal with the shop you got it from, see if they can help you. You *were* actually trying to do things the right way so talk to them and see what happens. This isn't a JRA.

Personally, I think the bike will probably be fine. I've got a USE Alien carbon post which is crimped a tiny bit like your seat tube (although it has no clearcoat to go hazy) and it's been fine for a couple years. Considering how ridiculously light that thing is, and how highly loaded (vs the section of seat tube on your bike) if it was going to fail, it would have. (I do inspect it whenever I work on the bike, and _do_ understand I'm taking a risk... I'd never put that post on someone else's bike)

I also chuckle at folks who think their hands and mad Jedi wrenching skills are better than a GOOD torque wrench. But yes, ultimately, you have to know to trust your instincts when too much really is too much. Good tools are no substitute for common sense, and experience is no substitute for good tools.

Best of luck -- keep us posted on what happens!


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## rd3 (Mar 18, 2006)

The clearcoat on the orbea alma frames is known to easily flake. The only place I see deformation in the pictures is on the clearcoat where it has seperated from being pinched by the derailleur while being tightened. Your torque wrench may have been on spec, it is possible that the tube is slightly oversized where the derailleur clamps at. On carbon frames tube spec generally seem to run big rather than small once you figure in the clearcoat. You could measure the tube with a caliper to see if it is 34.9 or a hair larger. If it is larger that would explain one of the reasons why it tightened like it did. The carbon on your frame isn't paper thin like on some road bikes, I would ride it.


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## Tkul (Mar 1, 2007)

if after tap test (hard rubber/coin... what ever) you can`t notice anything...just assemble and ride.
Even if you brake the seat tube (I beat my "balls" that you won`t!) you have a low probability of injury.

Xray? Man... it`s expensive... and you can find "worse" things!
Remember, in carbon manufacturing there are tolerances regarding:

- air/strange objects
- delamination
- etc...

Off-topic:

I don`t think carbon fiber (ply or prepreg) is the best material for component manufacturing.
At the moment, almost every manufacture uses carbon tubes, carbon lugs and glue to assemble a frame. Even if you go for a monocoque design it`s only the front frame or triangle!
And more... composite design must be diferent than metal design.

For the present - hydroforming is the way to go. And Al can be pushed way more than what is being used now.
For the near future - something in the lines of Easton Carbon (nano) is something to be developed.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Tkul said:


> For the present - hydroforming is the way to go. And Al can be pushed way more than what is being used now.
> For the near future - something in the lines of Easton Carbon (nano) is something to be developed.


+1. Carbon manufacturing is not there yet and most of the manufacturers in the cycling industry do not seem to really know what they are doing and are just chasing some bucks.

That does not mean this will not be sorted out with better composite materials and processes.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

If, after contacting the frame maker ... and you want to be sure everything is ok ... very carefully sand the damaged clearcoat off the area with wet and dry paper until you reach the carbon composite.
Mix up some epoxy.
Get some carbon and some 'S' glass.
cut the carbon up into small squares so it covers the dent and overlap a layer of the carbon cloth with a layer of S glass.
Wet the carbon cloth out carefully on the dent with the epoxy resin after mixing it thoroughly. Use a soft small brush to apply the epoxy to the cloth and the dent area. Try to keep it all as neat and level as possible. The wetted out layer/s of carbon cloth and the S glass should turn transparent after proper wetting out with the epoxy resin.
Wrap some masking tape around the repair and right around the seatpost. The tape will make sure the carbon cloth and S glass won't separate or move during curing.
Stand the frame upright so that the damaged area is flat and level, and let dry in a warm room for 24 hours. Remove the masking tape ...
When dry, lightly sand the repair level and clean it up ...
Then spray with a spray can of lacquer clearcoat.

Done.


Rainman.


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## Fastskiguy (Jan 15, 2004)

I am a big time thread stripper! I've got a clicker style wrench and use it on everything because when I "snug it up" it ends up too tight. I guess I just don't know my own strength  

Using it I stripped one of the pinch bolts on some Shimano XT cranks. Total bummer!

So now I use in stages as Cheers suggested....once at about 50 percent, one at 80-ish, one at 100% if it needs it. I think the beam style might be better for us too.

As far as your frame....it's the crimping that cannot be denied! But I'd still probably ride it or try to repair it as Rainman suggested.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

Fastskiguy said:


> I am a big time thread stripper! I've got a clicker style wrench and use it on everything because when I "snug it up" it ends up too tight. I guess I just don't know my own strength
> 
> Using it I stripped one of the pinch bolts on some Shimano XT cranks. Total bummer!
> 
> ...


The best Torque Wrenches are the dial ones










These ones you can watch the torque build (and also notice the running torque as the fastener goes in).

Best place to get the dial torque wrench is from industrial supply house https://www.mcmaster.com/

For small bolts (stem, seatpost binder, saddle clamp, handlebar etc)... the max is usually 6Nm or so... 
https://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/114/2762 (scroll to bottom)
You want item# 5718A43










$131 USD, armstrong brand, made in USA, comes with certification of calibration. Much better value than the syntace made in Taiwan or Pedros clicker (which I suspect is also made in taiwan). We use item 5718A43 at work on aerospace hardware.

For bigger stuff (Bottom Bracket, cassette lockring, pedals, crank arm bolt) I use the Park Tools beam. 
ITEM # TW-2


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## prebonked (Nov 21, 2006)

I finaly broke down and bought one of these. Works well and has a wide range of settings. I use it for my motorcycles as well.

http://buy1.snapon.com/PRODUCTS/TORQUE/pdf/techwrench/TECHWRENCH INTERNET SITE.pdf


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## cmh (Jan 30, 2004)

Tkul said:


> Xray? Man... it`s expensive... and you can find "worse" things!
> Remember, in carbon manufacturing there are tolerances regarding:


From my local shop regarding getting a Scott Scale frame X-Rayed:

"_The safest is sending it back unless you really feel that it is only through the clearcoat (shallow when probed vs a deeper cut), the only charge is shipping, which increases daily, but I do believe freight back is at no cost to you._"

Expensive, huh? 

This is the service of the manufacturer, supporting their product. Scott does this, I've heard Trek does it too. Would think that other manuf's do this as well... and I'll go out on a limb and say they probably know the difference between stuff in their manufacturing tolerances, and a serious structural fault.


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## ginsu2k (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm sorry, but they are not going to service that frame for free. The derailleur was torqued enough to crimp the seat tube...unfortunately, that is clearly the fault of the mechanic.


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## Fastskiguy (Jan 15, 2004)

I wonder what they are looking for on the X-rays....I've got an X-ray machine and everything...I'm hot to X-ray carbon!


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## Upandatem (Apr 11, 2004)

liam2051 said:


> Im with iclique on this one, to me it looks like there could be a aluminum ring placed below the carbon wrap at the derailer clamp point, I mean industry does this when making handlebars so I guess its atleast possible


Maybe it's possible but I can at least guarantee you that carbon does turn white when you compress it by overtorquing a bolt. Just ask my Bontrager XXX handlebars (pure carbon) that will need to be scraped from my brake levers.


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## cmh (Jan 30, 2004)

ginsu2k said:


> I'm sorry, but they are not going to service that frame for free. The derailleur was torqued enough to crimp the seat tube...unfortunately, that is clearly the fault of the mechanic.


I didn't say they would REPLACE it for free. I said they would inspect it. Big difference, no? My Scale is pretty far out of warranty, but the manuf. will still take it from me and run it through their x-ray machine at no cost. If they _find_ something, well then that's another matter.

As for what they're looking for on the x-ray, I've got no idea... I would assume that a cracked section shows up, somehow... but I look forward to seeing the pictures FastSkiGuy posts of his x-rayed carbon bits!


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

schlim,

Did Calfee get back to you?


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## Tiffster (Jan 30, 2008)

I've scanned carbon before - used to do it at a place i worked were we scanned carbon wings for the Airbus A380.

Theres not much to see. It gets scanned with a sonar like device and looking at the screen - if all is ok the screen remains blank. If there is a crack etc it shows up on the screen and using other equipment its depth can be gauged etc.


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## schlim (Aug 20, 2006)

Cheers! said:


> schlim,
> 
> Did Calfee get back to you?


Calfee said they are optimistic. After taking a look at the pictures, they said that it doesn't look structural. Their suggestion is to pull up the blistered clear coat a bit to look for anything that looks like a fracture running along the seat tube. I'm still gathering the nerve to start peeling away the finish.


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## ginsu2k (Jul 28, 2006)

Honestly, the use of X-Ray is a joke, I don't see carbon having a very large signature so that X-Rays will work properly. I think we are talking Ultrasound here. But then again, what is the point, Ultrasound is primarily used to detect sub-surface defects. We already know there is a defect! The OP needs to contact the manufacture to see what they think about the rideability of that frame as is, I don't think he actually needs to send it in to get that information.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

Tiffster said:


> I've scanned carbon before - used to do it at a place i worked were we scanned carbon wings for the Airbus A380.
> 
> Theres not much to see. It gets scanned with a sonar like device and looking at the screen - if all is ok the screen remains blank. If there is a crack etc it shows up on the screen and using other equipment its depth can be gauged etc.


What you are describing is ultrasonic inspection of carbon structures.


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## beatnik_ (Jul 3, 2008)

You are talking and talking...have you ever cut a carbon fiber part?. I can assure you that´s is not the way it looks down the coat. An aluminium frame or tube with a carbon wrap, that´s what Orbea is selling to you. Amazing. Orbea Alma is well known here in Spain for its extremely poor quality, and of course it weights at least 350 grams more than claimed. I can see the reason now


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

beatnik_ said:


> You are talking and talking...have you ever cut a carbon fiber part?. I can assure you that´s is not the way it looks down the coat. An aluminium frame or tube with a carbon wrap, that´s what Orbea is selling to you. Amazing. Orbea Alma is well known here in Spain for its extremely poor quality, and of course it weights at least 350 grams more than claimed. I can see the reason now


you're an idiot, the OP never mentioned anything about a piece of carbon flaking off, which is the only way "aluminum" would show through. the picture quality sucks. If you look closely you can still see the weave under neath the cloudy clear-coat, if the owner were to pick off the cloudy clear-coat, you will see its not an aluminum wrap,

cutting carbon WILL have a different end result, but if you were to take a full 100% carbon part that is clear-coated and put in a bench vise and started to tighten the vise it will bubble and fog up just like in the original pic

As far as ridding the bike it will be fine I have had many people come into my shop with Easton bars that have the same fogging around the shifter and brake levers, they have been that way for years and haven't broken yet


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## reydin (Feb 5, 2007)

scooter916 said:


> your an idiot, the OP never mentioned anything about a piece of carbon flaking off, which is the only way "aluminum" would show through. the picture quality sucks. If you look closely you can still see the weave under neath the cloudy clear-coat, if the owner were to pick off the cloudy clear-coat, you will see its not an aluminum wrap,
> 
> cutting carbon WILL have a different end result, but if you were to take a full 100% carbon part that is clear-coated and put in a bench vise and started to tighten the vise it will bubble and fog up just like in the original pic
> 
> As far as ridding the bike it will be fine I have had many people come into my shop with Easton bars that have the same fogging around the shifter and brake levers, they have been that way for years and haven't broken yet


 Now that was funny and informative :lol:


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## IAmtnbikr (May 17, 2008)

It's actually _you're_ and not _your_ in that context.


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## Flat Ark (Oct 14, 2006)

I say just ride the thing. My cat knocked a big vase off of a shelf and it hit the top tube on my Specialized Tarmac and put about a 1" crack in the side of the TT. That was 4yrs ago and that frame still rides as great as the day that I bought it.


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## Fastskiguy (Jan 15, 2004)

Flat Ark said:


> I say just ride the thing. My cat knocked a big vase off of a shelf and it hit the top tube on my Specialized Tarmac and put about a 1" crack in the side of the TT. That was 4yrs ago and that frame still rides as great as the day that I bought it.


and...knowing cats...he planned to do this!


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Flat Ark said:


> I say just ride the thing. My cat knocked a big vase off of a shelf and it hit the top tube on my Specialized Tarmac and put about a 1" crack in the side of the TT. That was 4yrs ago and that frame still rides as great as the day that I bought it.


Was that cat worth repairing when this incident was done? :skep: Or the vase for that matter.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Flat Ark said:


> I say just ride the thing. My cat knocked a big vase off of a shelf and it hit the top tube on my Specialized Tarmac and put about a 1" crack in the side of the TT. That was 4yrs ago and that frame still rides as great as the day that I bought it.


Can you post a pic?


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## beatnik_ (Jul 3, 2008)

You have bought a *piece of ***** and now you are mad, don´t be worried, you can ride your piece of aluminium without problems.

For the clever people, only the joints are made of aluminium,


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## reydin (Feb 5, 2007)

IAmtnbikr said:


> It's actually _you're_ and not _your_ in that context.


You would make my 3rd grade teacher/girlfriend proud, now give yourself one of these


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

beatnik_ said:


> You have bought a *piece of ***** and now you are mad, don´t be worried, you can ride your piece of aluminium without problems.
> 
> For the clever people, only the joints are made of aluminium,


Are you trolling randomly, or with some hidden purpose?


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## IAmtnbikr (May 17, 2008)

reydin said:


> You would make my 3rd grade teacher/girlfriend proud, now give yourself one of these


Just for me... >  <

My wife teaches 5th grade. Little wonder she goes crazy seeing improper grammar. I'd imagine that's why she married me; the woman has a great understanding of mental development through the 5th grade level.


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## Ausable (Jan 7, 2006)

Now I'm curious to know if the Alma is full carbon or carbon wrapped aluminum. Can the OP cut the frame in two, just to add some informative content to this thread - thanks


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## reydin (Feb 5, 2007)

IAmtnbikr said:


> Just for me... >  <
> 
> My wife teaches 5th grade. Little wonder she goes crazy seeing improper grammar. I'd imagine that's why she married me; the woman has a great understanding of mental development through the 5th grade level.


 Ahhh, now I understand. They (and by they I mean teaches that are girlfriends/wives) do try to spread that teacher maddness don't they, God love them.
Now back on topic, hey OP! just put that thing back together and go ride it. It'll work itself out one way or the other.


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## iClique (Oct 7, 2008)

Carbon overlay... so just peel the rest of the carbon off and save some weight!


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## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

Trolls:

It's clearly carbon. Look a little closer and you can see it pretty well. I hope all ends well for the OP.


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## IAmtnbikr (May 17, 2008)

iClique said:


> Carbon overlay... so just peel the rest of the carbon off and save some weight!


 Kind of like how your favorite crank arms fall apart?


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## schlim (Aug 20, 2006)

Ok, I'm going to jump in here on the carbon vs. aluminum ridiculousness being tossed around. The bike is an Alma carbon, the only aluminum in the thing is the bottom bracket shell, the waterbottle cage bosses, and the dropouts. I know because I shined a penlight down the frame from both the headtube and the seattube before I built it and there was nothing but carbon fiber. At 1270g actual weight for the frame, there is little room for tossing in extraneous metal. If there had been a metal insert, there's no way the carbon would have collapsed. 

I got the clearcoat chipped off around the crimp. Calfee's communication has been awesome. They identified a slight vertical crack from my photos. They recommend getting it repaired eventually, but I'm still going to talk to Orbea first and see what they might be able to do. The outside of the seattube was oversized at 35.42 as measured via calipers. The frame really ought to have been able to handle the specified torque low-end clamp torque as specified by Shimano via a new torque wrench. 

The suggestion tossed around that someone should be able to "feel tight" using a torque wrench is ridiculous, since most people (including me) use a 4.5" hex key to do adjustments. The leverage on a 12" wrench is not going to feel tight at the same levels. That's why you rely on the torque setting. If the frame had been crimped with an allen key, everyone would be saying I should have a torque wrench instead. 

I did finish the build and took the bike for a spin around the block. It accelerates amazingly fast and has razor-sharp handling. The final weight is 21.38 lbs since this is the weight weenie forum. I can't wait to ride the heck of it once the seat tube crack is resolved.


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## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

As I see it, it's Orbea's fault. The tube should have been 34.9mm, but they made it so large that, when torquing down on the derailler properly, it was easily damaged due to their defect.


BTW, that's obviously a carbon overlay on top of an aluminum overlay on top of carbon. I bet if you kept digging, you'd find a few more layers of metal, carbon, maybe some Chex Mix, and perhaps a cat.  j/k


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

...and the remnants of an inflatable bladder.


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## IAmtnbikr (May 17, 2008)

f3rg said:


> BTW, that's obviously a carbon overlay on top of an aluminum overlay on top of carbon. I bet if you kept digging, you'd find a few more layers of metal, carbon, maybe some Chex Mix, and perhaps a cat.  j/k


Lol.....


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## reydin (Feb 5, 2007)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> ...and the remnants of an inflatable bladder.


 I just deflated my bladder and flushed away the remnants, didn't see any carbon or aluminum though.


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## iClique (Oct 7, 2008)

Just glue on the rest of the carbon overlay you peeled off and it will look like new!


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## cmh (Jan 30, 2004)

schlim said:


> I can't wait to ride the heck of it once the seat tube crack is resolved.


Of course you'll post pictures for us to enjoy, right? :thumbsup:


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## schlim (Aug 20, 2006)

cmh said:


> Of course you'll post pictures for us to enjoy, right? :thumbsup:


Definitely.


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