# Possible crack in my carbon frame



## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

Last night, I noticed a possible crack in my 2008 GT Zaskar Team carbon frame.

I can see it, but I don't feel a thing when I run my finger over it. The surface seems to be completely smooth. I think it's just cosmetic. I did a Google search on this issue and the results made me worry though. I found that other people had problems with their Zaskar carbon frames cracking.

I use my bike only for XC. I have never abused it. The Zaskar carbon frame weighs about 300g more than the actually light XC frames. I assumed the extra weight would make it more durable. Now, I don't feel so confident about it.

Here are some pictures of the possible crack:

 

 

 

No flash:

 

What do you guys think? Is it safe to keep riding it?

Having the frame inspected by a GT authorized dealer isn't an option for me. I purchased the bike in the United States, but I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina. There isn't any authorized dealer here.


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## yellowbook (Aug 21, 2005)

Well, it is really hard to tell, even with the pictures, I almost thought, well it's just the lighting of the texture of the fibers.....then in the one pic I really see it, plus 90 degree angle mini cracks in the clearcoat, comin from underneath, which tells me it's the actual fibers that cracked.
I probably wouldn't ride it anymore.
I don't know if you have any carbon specialist in your country, heck I don't even know if there's one in the US, but from forum members I know that there is one in Germany where they repair stuff like that.
I don't know if it's even worth finding out and shipping it overseas or just getting a new frame, maybe a different brand off of ebay.
I assume these frames are more rare than a Scott Scale for instance.


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## Roadsters (Jul 7, 2008)

Calfee Design repairs carbon frames.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

If there was a crack, shouldn't I feel something when I run my finger or nail over it?


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## blog hogs (Feb 13, 2010)

Dam,Im getting ready to buy a 2010.Does this happen often,or is it a freak thing?


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

With that sort of finish it is possible that it is just in the cosmetic layer. Put your weight on the bike with it sitting on the wheels and see if it becomes possible to feel the crack, if not then you might as well ride it and see if it creaks or cracks. If not, just ride it.


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## amillmtb (Jun 24, 2005)

Well, what's GT's factory warranty? Before you even think about Calfee repair, make sure you have at least checked with your GT dealer.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

amillmtb said:


> Well, what's GT's factory warranty? Before you even think about Calfee repair, make sure you have at least checked with your GT dealer.


This.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

The OP is in Argentina and doesn't have a GT dealer available to do an inspection...



sfer1 said:


> Having the frame inspected by a GT authorized dealer isn't an option for me. I purchased the bike in the United States, but I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina. There isn't any authorized dealer here.


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## adept1 (Jul 25, 2008)

Sand it down a bit and check... if there's no problem respray it with some clear lacquer.


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## yellowbook (Aug 21, 2005)

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It's not close to Buenos Aires, but you could call them and ship it there for inspection etc.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Most of those are outside South America in Bosnia, Macednoia, Croatia, Australia and the Italian Riviera. The dealer in Santiago Chile might have some other priorities post earthquake. The dealer in Montevideo Uruguay might be the only real option.

But the first step might be to send GT Bikes an email with a photo and ask them the question

[email protected]


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## yellowbook (Aug 21, 2005)

If I type in Argentina in the dealer locater, there is one southwest of buenos aires, but I couldn't figure which one that is on the list.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

rockyuphill said:


> Most of those are outside South America in Bosnia, Macednoia, Croatia, Australia and the Italian Riviera. The dealer in Santiago Chile might have some other priorities post earthquake. The dealer in Montevideo Uruguay might be the only real option.
> 
> But the first step might be to send GT Bikes an email with a photo and ask them the question
> 
> [email protected]


Yep, the dealer in Santiago isn't an option.

And I don't think the one in Montevideo can help me either. When I first saw the GT Zaskar Team Carbon, I checked their website. They sell cheap Walmart type bicycles. I emailed them asking if they you could get the Zaskar for me and they didn't even respond to my inquiry. I bet they still haven't seen a carbon Zaskar two years after that.

If I type in Argentina in the dealer locator, it shows KIDSONS CYCLES, but I can tell theirs isn't an Argentine address.

I sent an email to GT last night. I'll wait to hear back from them.

Thanks to everyone for their advice.


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

where did you get the bike,it had to be bought somewhere.You should be able to feel a crack with your nail. I would take a really close look in sunlight,and maybe mark what i think the ends of the crack are,and see if it grows. Chances are it's just the end of a piece of carbon cloth, i have some of those on my giant nrs.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

I got it brand new from an eBay seller last year. I was looking for a 2008 model, because I didn't like the 2009 paint scheme.

I really don't feel anything when I run my nail over it.


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## XgreygOOse (Sep 8, 2007)

As rockyuphill said put some weight on it. Maybe get someone heavier than you to sit on the saddle, then run your finger over it. 
I kind of had a simlar problem with my DT Swiss Carbon rear shock. I though I had a crank but it was the clear coat paint. Sent it back to DT Swiss and they fixed it.


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

i'm looking at the pic again, maybe it looks different in person, but all the lines in that carbon construction look the same,is it the stressful location? I looked up other carbon zaskars and they had the carbon cloth surface finnish ,i like that better. Ride it and keep an eye on it.


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## Jake Pay (Dec 27, 2006)

XgreygOOse said:


> As rockyuphill said put some weight on it. Maybe get someone heavier than you to sit on the saddle, then run your finger over it.



Agreed :thumbsup:

I've been inspecting (on and off) my carbon frame since you posted this thread.......
Basically lookin' for a problem that doesn't exist :madman:
​


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## yellowbook (Aug 21, 2005)

Well this is where I think it is an actual crack.
Compare the 2 areas in the circle. 

The pattern is similar, but the upper structure doesn't have what you can see in the lower yellow circle....the crack.

Also, the 90 degree mini cracks (green arrows) show me it cracked from underneath and caused these side cracks.
They might become bigger when he sits on it again or somebody heavier.

Maybe it is just the clearcoat.....maybe it's deeper.........


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

needs more arrowzzz!


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## yellowbook (Aug 21, 2005)

^^^
Most helpful post in this thread yet!
LOLZZ!


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## Psycho Marco (Nov 7, 2008)

highdelll said:


> needs more arrowzzz!


You´re a jerk!!! You actually took the time in order to add those arrows and increase the knowledge level of this thread??:thumbsup:

Regards


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## AlexRandall (Apr 2, 2009)

highdelll said:


> needs more arrowzzz!


needs this quote too:

CAT: Give me the arrow! (He takes it) It could tell us a whole heckuva
lot about who we're dealing with here. (Looks the arrow over, then
looks up along the shaft and examines the tip.)
LISTER: Anything?
CAT: Yep! This sure came from a bow alright.....


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## saeta119 (Jun 21, 2006)

Question in regards to the bike itself to the OP, how do you like the bike? I've been wanting to get me one too.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

saeta119 said:


> Question in regards to the bike itself to the OP, how do you like the bike? I've been wanting to get me one too.


I've upgraded the bike a lot since I got. My Zaskar is quite different than a stock Zaskar Team Carbon, so I don't know if me answering your question would help you.

My Zaskar is at least 2.5 lbs lighter now. These are the specs:

Frame: GT Zaskar Team Carbon
Fork: Magura Durin SL 100mm
Headset: FSA Orbit IS w/ Hope Head Doctor
Spacers: KCNC Hollow Headset Spacers
Stem: Syntace F109 Stem
Handlebar: Ritchey WCS Carbon Flat 31.8 x 580mm
Grips: ESI Chunky
Bar Ends: Extralite CyberEnds 19gr
Front Brake: Formula R1 w/ carbon lever
Rear Brake: Formula R1 w/ carbon lever
Discs: Formula R1 Alloy Carrier 160mm w/ titanium bolts
Shifters: Shimano XTR Rapidfire Plus SL-M970
Crankset: RaceFace Next SL 44-32-22 175mm
Bottom Bracket: RaceFace X-Type Team XC
Cassette: Shimano XTR CS-M970 11-32
Rear Derailleur: Shimano XTR RD-M971-SGS 
Front Derailleur: Shimano XTR FD-M970
Chain: KMC X9SL Gold
Pedals: Xpedo MF-1A
Rims: AlexRims XCR Pro Scandium
Front Hub: 2009 American Classic Disc 130
Rear Hub: 2009 American Classic Disc 225
Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray Black
Nipples: DT Pro Lock Standard Aluminium
Rim Tape: Stan's Yellow Rim Tape
Skewers: KCNC MTB Titanium
Tires: Continental Race King Supersonic 2.2
Saddle: Selle Italia SLR Kit Carbonio Flow
Seatpost: Thomson Masterpiece 31.6 x 350mm w/ titanium kit
Collar: Kohosis w/ titanium bolts
Bottle Cage: King Cage Titanium w/ titanium bolts


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## rocketman87 (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi sfer, 

Have you crashed the bike? 
It need only be a small crash in the wrong loading direction. Think specifically for cases where the bike has landed on its side (maybe the seat hit higher ground before the frame, resulting in a force being applied sideways through the top of the seatpost).

It looks like you have a crack that isnt just cosmetic, i say this for the following reasons:
-You say that the outer surface is smooth, this means that the crack is not in the clear coat (which would crack cleanly through all layers due to the material consistency-you would feel it). This means it is most likely in the outer layers of the carbon/resin.

-The crack is not straight.
Because of the consistency of the clear coat, it is most likely that a crack in this layer will remain straight (or close to, possibly following the curvature of the frame). The fact that the crack wanders all over the place and turns extremely sharply in some places indicates that it is following a line of discontinuity (i.e weakness) in the carbon layup.

what to do?
repair? I strongly recommend against getting carbon components repaired; from an engineering point of view it is an extremely hit-and-miss option. It is also incredibly expensive to have it done right; this is especially true in a complicated case like this.

warranty? Up to you to sort out, doesnt look good considering the lack of dealers in Sth A.

replace? Probably your best option, though it does hurt the wallet.

ride? You could risk it if you wanted. The crack on the seat-stay gives me cause for concern though; if it gave way (after a small drop maybe?) you would be in some serious trouble and your hospital bills would most likely outweigh the cost of a new (shiny too) frame.

I hope i have helped. happy trails.
p.s. I didnt just BS that info to you; Im a PhD mechanical engineering student specialising in failure analysis.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Did you accomplish a coin tap inspection of the area. A dull sound indicates a relevant indication, whereas a sharp tone is minimal concern.

While I appreciate the post prior to mine, the guy is an engineering student. I have hands on repairing and building many carbon things, certified airplane stuff, bicycle frames, motorcycle and RC stuff. Plus as a day job I teach composite structures repair. Not bagging on the guy, rather I don't agree with his point of view on carbon repairs. Properly done there is no concern. Improperly done is like a poor weld.

Coin tap it and report back. It's obviously got something going on with the visual indication having an end at the longitudinal seam.

If you guys ever get the chance to see the way they assemble these bikes you'll be impressed right up until you see how they join the halves.

PK


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## rocketman87 (Jan 28, 2010)

PMK said:


> Did you accomplish a coin tap inspection of the area. A dull sound indicates a relevant indication, whereas a sharp tone is minimal concern.
> 
> ...I have hands on repairing and building many carbon things, certified airplane stuff, bicycle frames, motorcycle and RC stuff. Plus as a day job I teach composite structures repair....
> 
> PK


1. I agree with the coin tap, good point/idea.
2.assuming that both lines are in fact cracks and need to be repaired, how would you accomplish the repair? would you be able to provide a rough (read very, very rough) figure of the cost for each repair and the man-hours involved? I deal with the yes its failed/no its not side of the equation (and how/why) but not how to repair, im very intersted in what you would do.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

rocketman87 said:


> 1. I agree with the coin tap, good point/idea.
> 2.assuming that both lines are in fact cracks and need to be repaired, how would you accomplish the repair? would you be able to provide a rough (read very, very rough) figure of the cost for each repair and the man-hours involved? I deal with the yes its failed/no its not side of the equation (and how/why) but not how to repair, im very intersted in what you would do.


Based off the photos posted, The repair area would be mapped out. The damage areas would ideally be step sanded back or with that finish appearing to be discontinuous fibres, it would likely need be scarfed back.

This would be accomplished to all plies with failure down to one ply remaining if needed.

The repair would stack plies in proper orientation, if continuous fibres are beneath the surface ply, matching the edges of each step.

An additional ply would be added to the exterior.

For several reasons bicycle frames are almost impossible to vacuum bag, this would require an alternate means of pressure, to compact the plies and remove entrapped air.

Considering a complete failure has not happened this is a very straight forward fix. I'd guess Craig Calfee would be getting around $300 to fix it. The most I ever charged for a crushed road bike top tube that had been crashed was $175, about 4 hours start to finish plus materials.

PK


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

I've never crashed nor abused the bike. 

I did a coin tap check, but it's hard to tell because of the location of the "crack", which is right next to where two tubes join. It would make sense for the sound to be duller than on the middle of a tube, right? How dull is dull? Where the down tube and the seat tube join, I think the sound is even duller than on the "crack".


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

sfer1 said:


> I've never crashed nor abused the bike.
> 
> I did a coin tap check, but it's hard to tell because of the location of the "crack", which is right next to where two tubes join. It would make sense for the sound to be duller than on the middle of a tube, right? How dull is dull? Where the down tube and the seat tube join, I think the sound is even duller than on the "crack".


This "coin tap" test is not going to tell you anything. As you said it matters how thick the tube is. It's really hard to tell from pictures if a crack is deep or not. In fact very hard to tell with xrays. Anyway if you put weight/stress on that area and the crack doesn't expand/contract you're probably ok. It could just be a clearcoat level crack. But you can always check with someone who knows.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

You can try put some clear tape over the crack, and one close to the crack...

Go for a ride if the tape over the crack opens up or comes off the bike a little tiny bit you have a problem.

The other piece is just a control for the test.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

bhsavery said:


> This "coin tap" test is not going to tell you anything. As you said it matters how thick the tube is. It's really hard to tell from pictures if a crack is deep or not. In fact very hard to tell with xrays. Anyway if you put weight/stress on that area and the crack doesn't expand/contract you're probably ok. It could just be a clearcoat level crack. But you can always check with someone who knows.


Coin tap will work fine for that thin structure. The technique is important. Just slapping a coin all around is no help. If you tap along the bond line where the frame is joined it should have a constant tone. Then tap a path parallel to the bondline but offset slightly. This second tone should remain constant. With each pass having a further offset, those tones should also be constant.

The tones may and should change as you move away from the bondline with parallel passes.

The key is does the tone change as you pass over the suspect area? Any change in tone in the suspect area is reason to look closer.

The reason I doubt it's clearcoat is the crack begins at the bondline.

I realize the difficulty by being far from a dealer. Ultimately this entire choice of crack or no crack, ride or not ride it falls onto the frames owner.

Myself and others routinely check structures more elaborate, far more expensive, and safety important with coin tap inspections. Done properly it is an effective method to inspect composite components.

Best of results with it and hope it helped.

PK


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## rustybkr (Mar 30, 2010)

I'd just ride it and check it regularly.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

That' why I do not buy carbon bits. Anxiety + Obsessiveness + Composites = too much for me to handle.


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## liam2051 (Apr 19, 2008)

Common problem with the 08/09 zaskar carbon frames, Ive had 2/3 come back with this or similar issues around this location  Contact GT and hope they have a 2010 frame for you


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

A couple of months ago, I asked GT if the 2010 frame was lighter than the 2008 and 2009 frames. They answered it's the same frame.

If this is a common problem, I don't think getting a new frame would be a solution.


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## PissedOffCil (Oct 18, 2007)

sfer1 said:


> A couple of months ago, I asked GT if the 2010 frame was lighter than the 2008 and 2009 frames. They answered it's the same frame.
> 
> If this is a common problem, I don't think getting a new frame would be a solution.


It's not because it's the same frame that they haven't improved their manufacturing and QA...


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## liam2051 (Apr 19, 2008)

the frame is most definitely different for 2010. I have just today received two warranty credited frames for a 08 and an 09 carbon zaskar. The seat tube 'triangle' has been beefed up along with the headtube. 

I have been assured problems will not occur in the new frameset, weight wise the gain is within the normal error %'s of normal frames anyway. 

Contact GT and start the warranty procedure, with luck they will have a 2010 on hand in your size.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

Starting the warranty procedure and getting a new frame would be very difficult here. As I mentioned before, I purchased the bike in the US, but I live in Argentina. 

Besides, I hate the 2009 color scheme and I'm not very excited about the 2010 one. I like my all black frame. My bike is all black. I even spent $190 to have my R1's silver hoses replaced with black ones. I don't really want a black, silver and yellow frame.

How much does the 2010 frame size M weigh?


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## Psycho Marco (Nov 7, 2008)

sfer1 said:


> Starting the warranty procedure and getting a new frame would be very difficult here. As I mentioned before, I purchased the bike in the US, but I live in Argentina.


That´s the price that we, as buyers from outside the US, have to pay in order to have a good frame.

I bought a Chumba frame and paid $125 for the shipping to Mexico (I think to Argentina it must be like 400 bucks), just to find out that they sent me a wrong size frame, so I had to pay again to return the frame.

I just bought an Ibis frame, and if I have to make the warranty procedure sometime, I will have to pay for shipping. That´s how it is.

Hope this turns out ok to you.

BTW I visited Argentina in december and what I like the most was... the women!

Saludos mi hermano latino!


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## liam2051 (Apr 19, 2008)

Weight would be essentially the same as the 2009. The frames look alot better in person, I have in person viewed both the red and team framesets. Other than taking the frame to a composite technician to be fixed there isnt much else you can do, although the repair option would most likely add more weight


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## MrEconomics (Aug 23, 2004)

My 09 S-Works Epic was just replaced by Spesh with a 10 S-works Epic due to crack under BB. Only reason I found the crack was cleaning my bike and noticed a chip. LBS took picture with blackberry phone, emailed it to rep, and 10 minutes later was told a new frame would be there in a couple days.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

Guppie58 said:


> My 09 S-Works Epic was just replaced by Spesh with a 10 S-works Epic due to crack under BB. Only reason I found the crack was cleaning my bike and noticed a chip. LBS took picture with blackberry phone, emailed it to rep, and 10 minutes later was told a new frame would be there in a couple days.


That's a good customer service. Much better than GT's.

It's been 11 days since I contacted GT and I still haven't received a response from someone who actually knows what he's talking about.

On March 24, I got an email from Melissa Lopes (Int'l Sales - Latin America & Caribbean), who didn't seem to be an expert on this issue. She told me she had passed my information & photographs along to their GT Product Manager as well as to their Vice President of Quality. I still haven't heard from any of them.


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## The_Stig (Jul 24, 2008)

AlexRandall said:


> needs this quote too:
> 
> CAT: Give me the arrow! (He takes it) It could tell us a whole heckuva
> lot about who we're dealing with here. (Looks the arrow over, then
> ...


Boys from the Dwarf


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

It's been almost a month since I first contacted GT and I'm still waiting for their VP of Quality to respond to me.

I suggest you to avoid GT like the plague.


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## gt jorgito (Nov 24, 2004)

highdelll said:


> needs more arrowzzz!


The crack came from shooting an arrow at it. LOL! Sorry I couldn't help myself.


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## liam2051 (Apr 19, 2008)

Ill openly admit as a GT dealer they are a VERY VERY painful company to work with, warranties are slow and drawn out, options are limited ect ect 

Email them, call them, fax them do anything you can to hound hound hound and they will respond


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## strauchfx (Jan 30, 2010)

This man speaks the truth ^^

I don't have first hand knowledge of how GT operates, but when I want to get something done my strategy is tenacity.

Hit them from every corner possible, this sounds like a solid quote for the e-mail: "I have posted this potential problem I'm having on a MTB forum to see if I could gain insight... etc......" 

Make them "want" to help you.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

strauchfx said:


> This man speaks the truth ^^
> 
> I don't have first hand knowledge of how GT operates, but when I want to get something done my strategy is tenacity.
> 
> ...


I did that about a week ago, when I got tired of waiting for their VP of Quality to contact me. I told them I had posted about my problem with their product and their service on several high-end bicycles forums in English and Spanish. I think it worked, because I finally got a reply from him. He told me he couldn't determine if my frame was cracked just by looking at the pictures. He could have told me that long ago, instead of leaving me waiting for over a month. The good thing is they offered me a new frame.

I'd rather have had a more definitive diagnosis before taking my bike apart and starting a complicated exchange process. Specially because I liked my all black 2008 frame better than the 2010 model. I even spent $190 to have my R1's silver hoses replaced with black ones. That's wasted money now. But considering it might be unsafe to keep riding my frame, I accepted their offer.

They told me they would ship it to me soon. I hope that I get it fast and that they solved the problem with their frames. I don't love the 2010 paint scheme, so let's hope it's at least durable.


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## gt jorgito (Nov 24, 2004)

As a GT customer, I've never had a problem with my dealer getting GT to cover their warranties. They've always taken care of me with no problem, that's why I'll always support their product and continue to buy their bikes.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

Today, I received the 2010 Zaskar Carbon Team frame (size: M) GT sent me. It looks good, but I put it on my digital scale and it's *1636g*. That's at least 250g heavier than the 2008 model, which wasn't really light to begin with.

I honestly don't know what to do with it. I spent a lot of money upgrading my bike to make it lighter. It's less than 8.5kg at the moment. Am I supposed to rebuild it with the heaviest carbon frame on the face of the Earth? Light and reliable parts are quite expensive. It costs several hundreds of dollars to reduce the weight this frame adds.


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## gt jorgito (Nov 24, 2004)

Wow, 250 grams huh? That's half a pound in my world. you are definitely obsessed with weight. It would probably be easier to loose half a pound yourself man. I know I can loose the weight of your Zaskar off my body. I'm 208 lbs. Hey, it's your thing so it's cool. 18.5 lbs on a mountain bike is pretty awesome in my book. Heck my GT road bike weighs 17.5 lbs. My Force is 30.5 and my marathon is 27. My buddy's salsa dos niner is 25 and if it wasn't for my out of shapeness I could easily keep up with him. I actually can for the first few miles then he's gone. I would probably brake an 18 lb. mountain bike. I'd love to know what your bike build is man. Sounds pretty awesome, but c'mon...250 grams?


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## mellowyellowCJ7 (Sep 4, 2008)

sfer1 said:


> Today, I received the 2010 Zaskar Carbon Team frame (size: M) GT sent me. It looks good, but I put it on my digital scale and it's *1636g*. That's at least 250g heavier than the 2008 model, which wasn't really light to begin with.


That's a bummer. Maybe you could sell it? If you can 2-5 houndred dollars, then you could use that money to buy a Sette phantom that weighs about 1110g. I don't know if they sell them where you live, but in the U.S.A. they are selling for $400 right now.


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## gt jorgito (Nov 24, 2004)

Never mind on my last post... I saw your post on the build. Pretty sweet indeed. I hope it all works out for you sfer1.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

gt jorgito said:


> Sounds pretty awesome, but c'mon...250 grams?


How the heck did find this forum? 

250g is frigging lot.

Sfer - forget this carbon thing - sell it new and get a titanium frame.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

Yep, 250g is a lot, specially considering the 2008 frame wasn't very light to begin with. Now I have a frame that's about 600g heavier than a Scott Scale 10. And I haven't seen many of those cracked.

BTW, I'm 145 lbs.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

sfer1 said:


> Now I have a frame that's about 600g heavier than a Scott Scale 10.


...and ~300g heavier then my el cheapo ti - that ain't cracking under 200lb... 

Damn, they sure decided to overbuild that updated frame for you... Sorry to rub it in. It is indeed a bummer.


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