# Struggling to learn how to manual.



## Cranx650 (Jan 27, 2016)

I've been struggling to learn how to hold a manual for months now. Every day, I spend at least an hour practicing and I've gotten nowhere. I am fairly confident in other areas and I can do a black diamond downhill trail with ease, except for the drop offs which require me to know how to manual. I've watched many different videos and read many different articles and I still don't know what I'm doing wrong. I can get my front wheel in the air, but I can't keep it there. I figured that one of my problems is that I don't have a completely flat area to practice it, but I fell that I should be able to do it on a slight incline anyway. Any advice? How long did it take you to learn this and what did you do wrong or right? Thanks, 
-Jake


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Maybe post a video?


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## Cranx650 (Jan 27, 2016)

Yeah, maybe tomorrow morning I'll post one.


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## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Just watch this video over and over:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdLX2RVxUuA#t=144

You'll either learn to manual or quit the sport for good. I'm thinking of just quitting....


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

You need to manual in order to do a drop off ? Just pedal off the thing? Power pedal stroke, pull back on the bars, kick hips back?


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

One old dude had an interesting approach: he installed the stem backwards, so he could raise the front wheel from the ground simply by shifting his weight back and hanging behind the saddle. It was very easy to control and keep the front wheel close to the ground. 

From there he went to a shorter stem - still backwards - then the short stem facing forward and so on. Get comfortable with one setting before moving the bar forward. 

With steps like this you can get started more easily and increase the challenge as you progress. Especially with the big wheels and long chainstays of modern XC bikes a manual is more difficult than before.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Might need a setback seat post with that reversed stem. When I reversed mine, my knees hit the handlebars when I pedaled (seat all the way back).

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


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## jstonebarger (Nov 6, 2014)

Wait... a thread about an actual skill? There's nothing to buy?!?!?

(Sorry, I suck at manuals too, or I'd try to offer help. I will, however, watch this thread to see if anything useful comes of it.)


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## curtiseddie (Oct 5, 2015)

I, too, have been attempting this skill for months now. My only minor successes have been on the trail after coming over a roller. But, I can't ever keep it going longer than a few feet. I suppose I'll just keep trying or quit; watching videos doesn't seem to help.


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## splitendz (Nov 13, 2015)

I almost feel like riding wheelies and probably manualing also is one of those things you are good at naturally or not. I grew up riding dirt bikes and knew guys who could wheelie for miles.. I never could. I practiced all the time but never could find that balance point where you just sit back and wheelie... so frustrating. Same on a mtb. I can pick the front end up and wheelie a little, but Ive seen guys just go forever... really wish I could. Manualing is even more difficult, but I bet those wheelie kings have an easier time learning how to do it.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Hips down and but low before ever pulling up the front.

Low towards bars.
Hips down and back.
Raise bars by leaning back with straight-ish arms "pulling" bars.
Balance and fun!

I think a few of these are ok:


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

I can't do a proper manual either. I end up yanking the bars up to loft the front wheel a bit, but that's not how it's done. I happened to watch the above excellent videos recently and went out, tried again and still failed. Recently, when I was ordering a new bike at my local shop, I got to talking with the manager about lofting the front and he said it's imperative to have your seat well down and out of your way so you can scoot way back with your butt low. Upon watching the videos again, I saw how true that was. His butt is practically over the rear axle. 

My next attempts will be with the saddle down - hopefully, I will do better. BTW, my new bike will have a dropper.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

i certainly wish i had a dollar for every person who wants the quick trick to a manual. it takes tons of practice and landing flat on your ass. otherwise everyone would be rolling around on one wheel or another like it was the normal thing....


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## Stopbreakindown (Jun 27, 2011)

EASY, just remove the front wheel like Early B!


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> it takes tons of practice and landing flat on your ass.


True. However, knowing what to try/emulate helps avoid a lot of bad habit and shortens the trial and error. In this link:






@ 36sec... He gave me the best advice that wasn't called out in other 'how to' vids... That L shape. Don't cut the corner. Anyway...there's another vid that was super good for the OP but I can't find it yet. Somewhere.... Probably the steeziest and one of the most useful skills to learn. Still practicing!


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## Big Virgil (Dec 8, 2008)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> i certainly wish i had a dollar for every person who wants the quick trick to a manual. it takes tons of practice and landing flat on your ass. otherwise everyone would be rolling around on one wheel or another like it was the normal thing....


I was trying a few weeks ago, landed flat on my rear and totally jacked up my back. It still isn't 100%, but I can put my shoes on now, lol.


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## OLx6 (Feb 5, 2011)

I can only hold a manual for about 3-5ft or so please don't consider me an expert. However 3-5ft is enough for the riding I do on a XC 29er hardtail. For me to learn this I read books, watched videos, and practiced. It was not until I tried it on my son's BMX bike did I get the feel for it. The short top tube, smaller wheels, and low seat post make a manual much easier. The first time trying a manual on the BMX bike I nearly went over backwards. Then going back to the XC bike it is much harder to get that leverage, but you have the muscle memory and can loft the wheel off the ground a little more naturally. 

As discussed you can try a power wheelie too, although not as fun if you are trying to carry some momentum and flow to your ride.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

Cranx650 said:


> I've been struggling to learn how to hold a manual for months now. Every day, I spend at least an hour practicing and I've gotten nowhere. I am fairly confident in other areas and I can do a black diamond downhill trail with ease, except for the drop offs which require me to know how to manual. I've watched many different videos and read many different articles and I still don't know what I'm doing wrong. I can get my front wheel in the air, but I can't keep it there. I figured that one of my problems is that I don't have a completely flat area to practice it, but I fell that I should be able to do it on a slight incline anyway. Any advice? How long did it take you to learn this and what did you do wrong or right? Thanks,
> -Jake


you dont need to manual to do drops. Instead get down low and push your bars forward as you go over the edge. If you are going really slow, then yeah a wheelie drop could be useful, but even if you are going 5mph you can do a regular huck.

some bikes are hard to manual. If your chainstay is > than 17.5" or so it can be tough.

the easiest way to get the feel is to ride up a grassy slope, your wheel will come up very easily (think when you do climbs you cant keep the front wheel down). The key is to get your butt past the rear axle. You dont need to pull up on the bars much as you weigh a lot more than the bike.


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## CaptDan (Jun 26, 2013)

goodmojo said:


> ...the easiest way to get the feel is to ride up a grassy slope, your wheel will come up very easily (think when you do climbs you cant keep the front wheel down)...


I learned that trick decades ago while riding dirtbikes. It is helpful on a variety of levels.
Not only does the front end come up easier, but the rear wheel will be less inclined (pun?) to move in front of your Center of Gravity and cause a loop-out. And speeds are generally slower.
Plus, every laborious, uphill grind becomes another opportunity to have some fun.

There is a quote someone has here in their sig. Forgive me for butchering it, but it's something like;
"There is no greater expression of unvarnished joy than a wheelie."


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

goodmojo said:


> the easiest way to get the feel is to ride up a grassy slope, your wheel will come up very easily (think when you do climbs you cant keep the front wheel down). The key is to get your butt past the rear axle. You dont need to pull up on the bars much as you weigh a lot more than the bike.


That advice is good for learning to wheelie. To manual, it is recommended to do the same but on a slight decline.


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## CaptDan (Jun 26, 2013)

LaXCarp said:


> That advice is good for learning to wheelie. To manual, it is recommended to do the same but on a slight decline.


You are spot-on; For Complete Beginners, practicing lifting the front wheel on a slight uphill offers a safer risk/reward ratio.
But there are two aspects that are shared between wheelies and manuals - balance and rear brake usage.

I encourage anyone learning to Carry-a-Wheel to get those two basic under their belt in the easiest/safest conditions.
And if you grab too much rear brake while the front wheel is elevated, it has a shorter distance to drop if you are riding uphill. That may may not sound like a big deal -- with today's suspension forks -- but many Schwinn 'blade' forks got bent from practicing wheelies back in the day. :thumbsup:


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> i certainly wish i had a dollar for every person who wants the quick trick to a manual. it takes tons of practice and landing flat on your ass. otherwise everyone would be rolling around on one wheel or another like it was the normal thing....


Nobody is expecting "quick". Though some on this forum claim to have learned to do it in a few hours, others struggle with it for years.


Carl Mega said:


> Hips down and but low before ever pulling up the front.
> 
> Low towards bars.
> Hips down and back.
> ...


I have been trying the "L-shaped" thing for the last 4 months. Can't really preload the shocks that way (since pushing down on them pushes me UP) so I get even less lift than from just mashing the front fork as hard as I can (which still isn't much). My bikes are old-geometry with long chainstays and I am short, so shifting my weight back does very little. It is not possible to get back nearly as far as the guys in the videos do.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

andytiedye said:


> I have been trying the "L-shaped" thing for the last 4 months. Can't really preload the shocks that way (since pushing down on them pushes me UP) so I get even less lift than from just mashing the front fork as hard as I can (which still isn't much). My bikes are old-geometry with long chainstays and I am short, so shifting my weight back does very little. It is not possible to get back nearly as far as the guys in the videos do.


Think of the second half of the "L" as snapping of your hips that moves the bike forward up under you, rather than moving your body backwards.

As with most (all?) movements on a bike, this is a hip driven movement.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

are you trying to learn to lift the front wheel to do a drop, or balance on your rear wheel and roll like that for a distance? if you lift your front wheel for the distance needed to do a drop, that's not a manual, that's just lifting the front wheel. if you can't do that, there's something very awkward about your bike setup or you need to gain some upper-body strength.


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

They are not completely separate skills. If you know how to manual, you will be much more confident when rolling off a drop especially at low speeds. 

If you can't manual, you will have doubts at the edge of the drop: will the nose dive before the rear wheel clears, or will the bike roll from underneath you?

My manualing sucks and because of that I only do drops when I have enough speed to clear the drop before the front comes down. Been meaning to fix this, but it takes practice.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

makes sense. i can "manual" my bike long enough to take a small drop at slow speed, but it's more of a half-assed wheelie. my bike is long and stable and really hard to get _my _weight back far enough to balance it for more than a few feet. maybe it would be easier if I was fat. I think this is where fit and geometry, especially chainstay length, come into play. my previous frame was generally smaller and had shorter chainstays and was easier to manual, but not as confidence-inspiring as a larger, longer bike is.

OP- what bike are you riding? how tall are you? what's your "body type"?


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

definitely easier to manual my czar (17.4 chainstay), vs tallboy ltc (17.9" chainstay).

wheelbase is comparable

I learned on the tallboy and it was a struggle, when I got the czar I could almost immediately do it. I cant hold it for long, but that will definitely come with time.

the key for me is to

1)slam the seat
2) not be clipped in
3) do it on grass so Im not worried about falling on my ass.
4) loop out on purpose so you go past the point of balance.
5) learn to get the front up on an incline, but learn to manual on a very slight decline. Grass slows your acceleration down so you have more time to react. Downhill means you get enough speed to stabilize


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

maybe you are doing everything right but just need a smaller bike


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## Cranx650 (Jan 27, 2016)

I'm not sure if anybody is going to see this now, but after months and months of failed attempts, I have finally figured it out. Firstly, I was pulling on the bars with my arms instead of simply shifting my weight, and for some reason I never noticed that. I learned to instead bring my weight back behind the seat using the L shape that people were discussing above. It helps to think of your weight as your hips-in this I mean move your hips back, not your entire body (if that makes sense). I also focused on perfecting the L shape since I noticed that instead of coming straight down, I moved too far forward and yanked back. I hope this helps.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

So...this was you? http://forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/mtn-biker-faces-court-summons-wheelie-1005399.html


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## Cranx650 (Jan 27, 2016)

mack_turtle said:


> OP- what bike are you riding? how tall are you? what's your "body type"?


27.5" full suspension trail bike with about 5" of travel.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

from attack position, practice pushing your bars forward. this will 'naturally lift' your front end up without throwing off your weight. at this stage notice that your knees should still be bent. once you get the hang of this, after your front wheel lifts, push the pedals with your hips (hence the bent knees earlier). the front wheel will go up further 'if and only if' the timing is correct.

the movement is similar to pumping (without the transition) where you go heavy on the front (push bars) then heavy rear (push pedals).


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Longer chainstay is harder to do than shorter stay. It took me a few years to be able to do a few seconds sustained manuals. The easiest is actually on hard rollers or small ramps between the driveway. 

Harder surface is much easier to predict what the bike is going to do than dragging soft cushy grass. It's easier to do it at speeds(running pace) but getting up the courage to do it is much harder than one would think. Also rear brake is your best friends, once you get the sensation it controls the height of your front wheel. Now I'm going in to every manuals with rear brake lightly dragging. 

It's a simple process really, you just need to layer the muscles memory on small movement of corrections, it just takes a lot of determination or a lot of practice time to do it. It's like track stand practice it every chance you stop for a break the next thing you know you are not practicing anymore you are doing it. I pump the back side every time I roll over a small hump and get half a second of front wheel lift til one day I could get 3-4 seconds manual

I cheated however, I bought a short stay DJ bike and full armor when I practice. Them short stay really was so easy to wheelie I was on my a$$ quite a few times on the first day. Longer wheel base and stay takes a lot more umph! 

I pretty much started riding (relearning)in my thirties, I had to learn every skills no matter how basic. I know for the fact, if I can do it everyone can


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

Cranx650 said:


> 27.5" full suspension trail bike with about 5" of travel.


since you got an FS, you really have to 'pump' it down to preload your shocks otherwise it'll just eat up the pressure you exert on it (that's its job anyway). by preload, i don't mean that the shocks will propel you up as a reaction. you just have to take away the play to make it stiff enough so as not to eat up any pressure you exert. it's like this, you pump down to make your shocks 'stiff enough' such that pushing down with your feet won't be transferred to it. hope this make sense.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## FPtheBored (Oct 15, 2014)

Just going to share my personal experience learning a manual and associated tricks such as the bunny hop. I have a nomad and a dj bike. Being that the nomad comprises 95% of my riding I feel more comfortable both manualing and bunny hopping it. I cannot even recall the last time I looped out on the nomad manualing while on the dj bike its easier to get in the balance point, but I frequently overestimate the amount of body english required to get it to the balance point and loop out. My dj bike was actually purchased with the intent improving my manuals and bunny hops, but being as I am more comfortable on the nomad I still put in the work learning on it instead and have gotten to a decent place within a few months of a lot of practice (around 10 parking spaces max and being able to bunny hop up 2-3 stairs without casing them) I can't get anywhere close to that on the dj bike.

As far as learning the manual goes I spent days or weeks without real improvement and then pow things would sort of click, I would randomly figure out that weight my body a certain way I could hold it steadier or get into it easier. In my experience there is no substitute for just raw time and experimentation, from observing others learning and from my own experience you have to really want it and put in the time. Something that might really help is video tape yourself and compare it to folks whose manuals you wish to emulate so you can find the proper body position easier. You can learn it on any bike, but some will be more challenging to get into the initial balance point. I have a long way to go myself, but I'm enjoying it as rarely does something worth achieving happen quickly.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Hadn't bothered reading this thread before then I remembered that I really suck at drop-offs! Little jumps, which are the only ones I do, aren't too bad but I have almost crashed sooOOoooo many times on drop-offs. 

I just kinda roll off them, try to jump a bit which sometimes sorta works, but front wheel pretty much always lands first. At a free-ride run today with lots of drop-offs and every one scares me! 

So thanks for the thread. I really need to practice some of this stuff so I don't suck so bad at this mountain biking lark :0)


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## libraryguy14 (Sep 2, 2016)

I have been trying to learn how to manual also, I'm still a work in progress and I watched all the videos but just couldnt seem to get it. I found this PDF and it has given me the best method and explanation. Practice the motion by stand beside your bike with your feet stanced, hips next to your handlebars and then push your back forward as you lower your self. You should not move but rather its the motion of throwing your bike foward, then the wheel wants to come up naturally.

Here is a link to the PDF with the better instruction. I found it extremely helpful.

http://www.bikeskills.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/mba-may09-train-62-66pdf.pdf


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## Len Baird (Aug 1, 2017)

Trying to pedal wheelie is a good start to get used to finding the balance point without panicking and bailing out.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Len Baird said:


> Trying to pedal wheelie is a good start to get used to finding the balance point without panicking and bailing out.


I was going to add doing a standing pedal wheelie as opposed too a seated pedal wheelie also helps. I don't think seated wheelies translate very well to the manual.


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## tbonez (Apr 7, 2004)

Im a drummer and I've learned over 25 years of playing that everything takes 5 times as long as initially expected. Yes there are people that are naturals that obtain skills quickly. The rest of us have to grind and invest the time. 

I truly believe and agree with the concept that it takes 10,000s hours to master any activity. If you truly want to master the method plan on spending years doing it and practicing it for hours a day...Most people get frustrated and give up and thats why they never master anything. Thats why there are a bunch of average people and only a handful of masters.

Is it worth it to you, only your dedication will tell...I mean this as encouragement so dont give up!


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

tbonez said:


> I truly believe and agree with the concept that it takes 10,000s hours to master any activity. If you truly want to master the method plan on spending years doing it and practicing it for hours a day...Most people get frustrated and give up and thats why they never master anything. Thats why there are a bunch of average people and only a handful of masters.


I don't think 10000 hours will do it, if you look carefully at the OP.



Cranx650 said:


> I've been struggling to learn how to* hold a manual for months* now.


OP is a serious overachiever.


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## fastpath (Aug 27, 2004)

How about building a manual machine or using an old trainer?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

This was posted on another thread, one of the better and more entertaining vids I've seen on the subject-


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)




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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

If the goal is to hit drops, learn to manual off a curb. Penalty for failure: low.


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