# USA made steel modern hardtails?



## asilker (5 mo ago)

What's up folks, I have option paralysis regarding full suspension rigs, and I love my current Timberjack, so what I'm gonna do is look into building a fantastic modern steel hardtail. I currently have a full SLX 12 speed drivetrain and Industry Nine 1/1 enduro 29" wheelset, as well as a fox 34 fork. 

I'm looking at the Cotic Bfe MAX and the Stanton Switch9er, both of which I would have to eat international shipping costs.

What's available here in the states? I see a lot of Chromag, but they're a bit heavier and more expensive than say a a BFe.

What's out there? What should I be looking for?


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

Neuhaus...others as I remember them


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

Waltworks


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## GKelley (Sep 4, 2018)

Jamis Dragon


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Myth Cycles


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Those UK steel frames are a pretty good value even with international shipping. You'll get 20% VAT dropped out of the price when you order one to the US.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Esker Japhy


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

vikb said:


> Those UK steel frames are a pretty good value even with international shipping. You'll get 20% VAT dropped out of the price when you order one to the US.


That's kind of what I'm wondering... I'm also emailing Cotic to ask about differences between the Solaris and the Bfe

That Eskar Japhy looks real cool too


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

asilker said:


> What's up folks, I have option paralysis regarding full suspension rigs, and I love my current Timberjack, so what I'm gonna do is look into building a fantastic modern steel hardtail. I currently have a full SLX 12 speed drivetrain and Industry Nine 1/1 enduro 29" wheelset, as well as a fox 34 fork.
> 
> I'm looking at the Cotic Bfe MAX and the Stanton Switch9er, both of which I would have to eat international shipping costs.
> 
> ...


Could wait for black friday, I got a Pole Taival for 20% off 2 years ago


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Anything actually made in the US (as opposed to assembled and designed) is going to be a lot more expensive and there may be a wait associated with it. There are plenty of US based brands that outsource manufacturing to Taiwan or other countries, but the list of non-custom builders that manufacture in the US is a lot smaller.

I have had a REEB Redikyelous for several years that is great, it's one of a multitude of their hardtails I've had over the years and they are a great company to deal with, expensive but welded in CO. Their pricing used to be a bit more approachable until a few years ago.

I've also had the privilege of seeing a few Coconino bikes. Caletti is made in Santa Cruz, CA, as well. Both look super nice, but $$ and a long wait (year+). There are a lot of similar custom builders in the US that are made in the states but, same story, expensive.

There are also US-based brands like Esker and Spot, but they aren't made stateside. I've seen Eskers and they look nice, I rode a Spot Rocker years ago and wasn't stoked on how it rode, but a lot of folks seem to like them.


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

Adodero said:


> Anything actually made in the US (as opposed to assembled and designed) is going to be a lot more expensive and there may be a wait associated with it. There are plenty of US based brands that outsource manufacturing to Taiwan or other countries, but the list of non-custom builders that manufacture in the US is a lot smaller.
> 
> I have had a REEB Redikyelous for several years that is great, it's one of a multitude of their hardtails I've had over the years and they are a great company to deal with, expensive but welded in CO. Their pricing used to be a bit more approachable until a few years ago.
> 
> ...


This is an important distinction that I just assumed when asking the question

I definitely think the handbuilt bespoke stuff is cool but I'm looking for something under $1000, so I suppose I meant US _based_

Although, I would love to continue looking through handbuilt options so continue to drop them if you please


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Honzo ST


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## SCTerp (Aug 9, 2017)

Canfield Nimble 9


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

If I didn’t already have my Waltworks, I would get a Neuhaus. Nick is a great guy and doing some really neat additive manufacturing. He also understands geometry extremely well.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

If I were inclined to build another hardtail, it would likely be a Neuhaus.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

asilker said:


> That's kind of what I'm wondering... I'm also emailing Cotic to ask about differences between the Solaris and the Bfe
> 
> That Eskar Japhy looks real cool too


The BFeMAX is more aggressive of the two. Can take up to a 160mm fork and is a bit more slack.


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

93EXCivic said:


> The BFeMAX is more aggressive of the two. Can take up to a 160mm fork and is a bit more slack.


Well see this is kind of what I'm wondering... I don't want to run anything beyond 140, and Id like something that pedals well and does technical climbs competently. So I'm wondering if the Stanton might be a better fit


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

asilker said:


> Well see this is kind of what I'm wondering... I don't want to run anything beyond 140, and Id like something that pedals well and does technical climbs competently. So I'm wondering if the Stanton might be a better fit


I haven't rode the Solaris but from the reviews I have seen that would seem to be the one you want if you went with Cotic.


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

93EXCivic said:


> I haven't rode the Solaris but from the reviews I have seen that would seem to be the one you want if you went with Cotic.


I am 5'6" and have some pause regarding the longer stays


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

For US made. Neuhaus Metalworks for sure. You will not find a frame with as many well thought out details or a ride quality like one of these.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

There's a huge difference in ride quality with going custom vs. hi end production frames.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

asilker said:


> That's kind of what I'm wondering... I'm also emailing Cotic to ask about differences between the Solaris and the Bfe


I had a BFeMAX. Nice bike in general. If you load your cart with a frame and tell it your address is in the US it will automatically remove VAT and add shipping so you can see the costs. VAT and shipping were pretty similar so the listed website price was approximately the shipped price.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

asilker said:


> I definitely think the handbuilt bespoke stuff is cool but I'm looking for something under $1000, so I suppose I meant US _based_


this was super confusing to me. a whole bunch of lovely Taiwan-made frames are listed in this thread. is ti too late to edit your first post so that is more clear?


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## titaniumsprucemoose (Sep 2, 2021)

Didn't see Chumba mentioned...


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## Dan Zulu (Jul 5, 2008)

Fat Chance Cycles in Medford, Oregon. He even has two frames on eBay right now for 20% off.


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## titaniumsprucemoose (Sep 2, 2021)

Also Sklar Bikes..


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## acedeuce802 (Jun 30, 2017)

Pedalhead


Here at Guerrilla Gravity, we build highly-refined mountain bikes that are optimized for speed. Our frames are designed and built right here in Colorado. This localized setup allows us to closely link the design and manufacturing process, maintain keen quality control, and provide riders...




ridegg.com





I don't believe there's a frame-only option, though


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

titaniumsprucemoose said:


> Also Sklar Bikes..


Oh man. I love that the bikes are dusty in the photos. Beautiful.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

acedeuce802 said:


> Pedalhead
> 
> 
> Here at Guerrilla Gravity, we build highly-refined mountain bikes that are optimized for speed. Our frames are designed and built right here in Colorado. This localized setup allows us to closely link the design and manufacturing process, maintain keen quality control, and provide riders...
> ...


There isn't a frame only option at the moment, but they just released the full size range for PH and I expect they'll offer frames as soon as the order backlog for completes is under control.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Every time I have looked at a Stanton the poor rear tire clearance has turned me off.


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

vikb said:


> Every time I have looked at a Stanton the poor rear tire clearance has turned me off.


what, don't you own an angle grinder


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

titaniumsprucemoose said:


> Didn't see Chumba mentioned...


I think it's time that you mention Chumba, since no one has yet.


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## Smartattack (8 mo ago)

You could build one from scratch. Worked out great for me. 😎










End unsolicited flex post.

But seriously there's some solid suggestions in this thread.


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## xjbaylor (Sep 22, 2006)

A lot to like about the Neuhaus bikes, I love my Hummingbird. Sounds like a Solstice 29 could be a great fit for you.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

vikb said:


> Every time I have looked at a Stanton the poor rear tire clearance has turned me off.


My Sherpa fits 29x2.6 or 27.5x3.0

There is also Manzanita cycles, Mone bikes, Moth Attack, English Cycles(from Oregon), Breadwinner, & Waterford has custom rigid mtbs & I think hts too. If we are talking Ti there is Moots, Lynsky, & Why Cycles.


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## Tiiiimmmmber (May 6, 2020)

44 bikes located in New Hampshire I believe


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## mrpizza (Jun 2, 2013)

Tiiiimmmmber said:


> 44 bikes located in New Hampshire I believe


He runs a thread on the garage journal and documents some of the frame building and a lot of his shop setup. It's pretty amazing


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## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

This might be pushing the requirements a bit, but Sonder Signal? Signal St Frame Aggressive steel 29er hardtail frame


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## suburbanassault (4 mo ago)

chazpat said:


> Honzo ST


Made in Taiwan.

Nothing wrong with that in my books. Some of the best bikes in the world are made in Taiwan. But it's not USA.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Funoutside said:


> My Sherpa fits 29x2.6 or 27.5x3.0
> 
> There is also Manzanita cycles, Mone bikes, Moth Attack, English Cycles(from Oregon), Breadwinner, & Waterford has custom rigid mtbs & I think hts too. If we are talking Ti there is Moots, Lynsky, & Why Cycles.


All the frames I looked at on Stanton's website maxed out at 29 x 2.4" tires which are too small for my preferences. OP is looking for frames that fit a $1000USD budget so custom and Ti don't work.



asilker said:


> I definitely think the handbuilt bespoke stuff is cool but I'm looking for something under $1000, so I suppose I meant US _based_


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

suburbanassault said:


> Made in Taiwan.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that in my books. Some of the best bikes in the world are made in Taiwan. But it's not USA.


OP clarified:

_I definitely think the handbuilt bespoke stuff is cool but I'm looking for something under $1000, so I suppose I meant US based_


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## azmtbkr81 (Oct 10, 2005)

How about a Lynsky Livewire? It's Ti, but on sale right now and cheaper than most made in USA steel frames, it might be worth stretching your budget.


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

I know the handstuff isn't what you are looking for but if you ever do, check out Samsara Cycles. Built in CO from XO tubing. I've been on mine for 55 years now and have zero desire for another bike. Matt really knows geometry and is a good dude to work with. When I'm ready for a new gravel frame in 2 or 3 years, I'll be getting another Samsara.


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## Nomad77 (May 21, 2021)

Cocconino


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## suburbanassault (4 mo ago)

chazpat said:


> OP clarified:
> 
> _I definitely think the handbuilt bespoke stuff is cool but I'm looking for something under $1000, so I suppose I meant US based_


Oh sorry missed that. Then it's a great option if the budget is for the frame only. Full build would be tough.

Marin also has a couple steel hardtails. RSD has the Middle Child.

And if we want to go over budget an awesome looking bike is the Voodoo Dambala.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

suburbanassault said:


> And if we want to go over budget an awesome looking bike is the Voodoo Dambala.


I know modern is debatable, but I wouldn't call 69 degree HA, 73 SA, 424mm (reach), and 441mm chainstay length modern.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Crash_FLMB said:


> I know the handstuff isn't what you are looking for but if you ever do, check out Samsara Cycles. Built in CO from XO tubing. I've been on mine for 55 years now and have zero desire for another bike. Matt really knows geometry and is a good dude to work with. When I'm ready for a new gravel frame in 2 or 3 years, I'll be getting another Samsara.


55 years?


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## DMFT (Dec 31, 2003)

Steve Potts.

-Because no one said it yet.

REEB & Neuhaus are RAD too!


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## suburbanassault (4 mo ago)

cassieno said:


> I know modern is debatable, but I wouldn't call 69 degree HA, 73 SA, 424mm (reach), and 441mm chainstay length modern.


Well it's a cross country bike. Those numbers seem quite contemporary taking that into consideration? Not a long low slack modern all mountain bike that is true.


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## Jayson44 (Aug 12, 2005)

they've both been mentioned, but I'd go with Sklar or 44 Bikes if I had the cash today for a custom frame.

Sklar Sweet Spot










44 Bikes Marauder









J.


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## hernanf86 (Sep 26, 2012)

Hi, I have a 2022 Cotic Solaris medium in orange, is too big for me. I am selling the frame with cane creek headset and through axle . PM if interested


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## Schril (Oct 28, 2010)

Falconer, Sycip, Retrotec, Guerrilla Gravity, Sklar, Black Sheep, Meriwether, Mythic, Alchemy, Moots, Breadwinner, etc...


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

chazpat said:


> 55 years?


5....stupid fat fingers 

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk


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## SeaHag (Jul 14, 2011)

If you're wanting an American made hardtail, I recommend taking a look at Wyatt Bicycles out of Wisconsin. I've been following them for a few years on Facebook and they are beautiful to behold. I love their CNC machined chainstay yokes. FWIW: I've never seen or heard anything but positive reviews of their products. Home


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

SeaHag said:


> If you're wanting an American made hardtail, I recommend taking a look at Wyatt Bicycles out of Wisconsin. I've been following them for a few years on Facebook and they are beautiful to behold. I love their CNC machined chainstay yokes. FWIW: I've never seen or heard anything but positive reviews of their products. Home


OP is _not _looking for an American-made frame, which is confusing. you have to read the rest of the thread where he clarified that and everyone missed it.

However, I'm really confused by Wyatt. their geometry is weird. maybe bikes that fit like that are good for the terrain in some places. 648mm ETT on a medium? 440mm+ chainstays with a 48mm BB drop? it's pretty strange.


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## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

mack_turtle said:


> OP is _not _looking for an American-made frame, which is confusing. you have to read the rest of the thread where he clarified that and everyone missed it.
> 
> However, I'm really confused by Wyatt. their geometry is weird. maybe bikes that fit like that are good for the terrain in some places. 648mm ETT on a medium? 440mm+ chainstays with a 48mm BB drop? it's pretty strange.


The Wyatt frames caught my eye but I thought the same thing when looking at the geo. Looks like they wanted the longer reach numbers, but left the seat tubes slack so the ett's are long compared to other frames I have been looking. Seat tube is crazy long on the large too.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

Crash_FLMB said:


> I know the handstuff isn't what you are looking for but if you ever do, check out Samsara Cycles. Built in CO from XO tubing. I've been on mine for 55 years now and have zero desire for another bike. Matt really knows geometry and is a good dude to work with. When I'm ready for a new gravel frame in 2 or 3 years, I'll be getting another Samsara.


Dang! 55 years on the same bike is epic!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Oogie said:


> The Wyatt frames caught my eye but I thought the same thing when looking at the geo. Looks like they wanted the longer reach numbers, but left the seat tubes slack so the ett's are long compared to other frames I have been looking. Seat tube is crazy long on the large too.


" Designed as a mesh between a trail bike and dirt jump bike "


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

SeaHag said:


> If you're wanting an American made hardtail, I recommend taking a look at Wyatt Bicycles out of Wisconsin. I've been following them for a few years on Facebook and they are beautiful to behold. I love their CNC machined chainstay yokes. FWIW: I've never seen or heard anything but positive reviews of their products. Home


That's some strange looking steel....


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

CCSS said:


> Dang! 55 years on the same bike is epic!


Yep, I'm old dude....HAHA! Nah, just a slip of the fat finger. Can't edit it now.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

milehi said:


> There's a huge difference in ride quality with going custom vs. hi end production frames.


Your experience is different than mine. I have 3 custom frames (two Waltworks and a Black Cat). Also owned a custom Indy Fab ti deluxe back in the day, but I was the second owner... I really like my current custom steel bikes, but the difference in ride quality isn't huge to me. In fact, one of the very best riding frames I ever had was a 1st generation Salsa El Mariachi - purchased right off the bike shop floor. And I know lots of folks riding Chumbas here in Austin who also own/owned customs and they're pretty thrilled with their high-end production ride quality. Only time I could see custom offering a dramatically different ride is if a rider has dramatically unique proportions or wants a dramatically different geo.


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

mack_turtle said:


> this was super confusing to me. a whole bunch of lovely Taiwan-made frames are listed in this thread. is ti too late to edit your first post so that is more clear?





mack_turtle said:


> OP is _not _looking for an American-made frame, which is confusing. you have to read the rest of the thread where he clarified that and everyone missed it.


Mack, I didn't realize that there was a distinct market for handbuilt frames when I asked the question. I just didn't know, that's why I was asking for input.

You have made it clear that you are displeased. Message received.

I am enjoying looking at all the handbuilt stuff and want people to keep talking to me about it. I don't feel a need to change the thread. Please take it easy.


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## Telebikes (Nov 3, 2014)

Stinner Tunnel. Amazing ride, paint, and geo. Hand made in Santa Barbara CA


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## Fast Eddy (Dec 30, 2003)

Jamis Dragon 29 or a Niner Sir 9, both are 853 steel.


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## titaniumsprucemoose (Sep 2, 2021)

Ritchey Ultra


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

CCSS said:


> Your experience is different than mine. I have 3 custom frames (two Waltworks and a Black Cat). Also owned a custom Indy Fab ti deluxe back in the day, but I was the second owner... I really like my current custom steel bikes, but the difference in ride quality isn't huge to me. In fact, one of the very best riding frames I ever had was a 1st generation Salsa El Mariachi - purchased right off the bike shop floor. And I know lots of folks riding Chumbas here in Austin who also own/owned customs and they're pretty thrilled with their high-end production ride quality. Only time I could see custom offering a dramatically different ride is if a rider has dramatically unique proportions or wants a dramatically different geo.


I'm of normal proportion. 18" frame and all. I've had all sorts of top shelf tubed production frames that rode nice. The best is still a simple 4130 frame. The only name tubing on that frame is Dedacciai chain stays.


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## shortnangry (Nov 16, 2014)

OP: for frame only, steel, US-based that’s under $1,000, the conditions I’ve gathered from the thread, you’re probably looking for Surly Karate Monkey, Kona Honzo ST, or Canfield Nimble 9. There are a lot of good suggestions here but they cost more than $1,000. Kona and Canfield were suggested previously, but I didn’t see Karate Monkey. Kona has a big distribution network and is the cheapest option. Surly is owned by QBP so most bike shops can get it. Disappointingly the KM price really went up, but still comes in under $1,000 (though without enough left over for a slice of pizza).

You should think hard on the geometry you want, as well as travel and tire clearance. The Cotic and Stanton are pretty different when you compare travel, tire clearance, reach and stack. Honzo and N9 are similar to each other and closer to Stanton but with shorter reach and steeper STA than Stanton. N9 is spec’d around 150mm and fits up to 29 x 2.8 tires. I gather that’s a lot more travel than you’re looking for. Check the geo chart for the travel it’s based on. If you shorten travel it will change the geo for better or worse depending on your taste. With the steep STA on N9 and Honzo, if you drop travel, which would further steepen STA, it might climb poorly. KM doesn’t use the long-and-slack ”modern” geo. It has the shortest reach, lowest stack, steepest HTA and slackest STA of BFe Max, Stanton, N9 and Honzo ST. It’s not twitchy old-time XC geo, but it doesn’t fit with “modern“ long-and-slack. Whether you like it or not is up to you. I’m just pointing it out and, more importantly, highlighting that geo differences will significantly effect ride. Everyone has their own flavor so focus on yours.


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## xjbaylor (Sep 22, 2006)

Jayson44 said:


> they've both been mentioned, but I'd go with Sklar or 44 Bikes if I had the cash today for a custom frame.
> 
> Sklar Sweet Spot


I am not big on geared hardtails, but if I ever build one to keep my Neuhaus company it would be a Sweet Spot. I liked the geo better on the Hummingbird, but there is something about the look of the Sklar, they are breathtaking.


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## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> " Designed as a mesh between a trail bike and dirt jump bike "


What dj bike has a 500mm seat tube?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Oogie said:


> What dj bike has a 500mm seat tube?


One that's 'meshed' with a trail bike?

I dunno, why ask me? Hit up the dude who designed it.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> " Designed as a mesh between a trail bike and dirt jump bike "


That is interesting claim from them for something with that geo.


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## huckleberry hound (Feb 27, 2015)

Stanton Switch9ers are on sale for 15% off right now.


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## BmoreKen (Sep 27, 2004)

asilker said:


> What's up folks, I have option paralysis regarding full suspension rigs, and I love my current Timberjack, so what I'm gonna do is look into building a fantastic modern steel hardtail. I currently have a full SLX 12 speed drivetrain and Industry Nine 1/1 enduro 29" wheelset, as well as a fox 34 fork.
> 
> I'm looking at the Cotic Bfe MAX and the Stanton Switch9er, both of which I would have to eat international shipping costs.
> 
> ...



Being a little nit-picky here, but Cotic and Stanton are not USA made, so <shrugs>?


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

BmoreKen said:


> Being a little nit-picky here, but Cotic and Stanton are not USA made, so <shrugs>?


That was the point of the question: I'm aware of some UK steel, so what's in the states

I didn't realize this was going to be such a difficult topic


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## King of Pentacles (10 mo ago)

Ritchey


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## hernanf86 (Sep 26, 2012)

How about Gorilla Gravity Pedalhead. Is made in Colorado and has great reviews


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## SCTerp (Aug 9, 2017)

hernanf86 said:


> How about Gorilla Gravity Pedalhead. Is made in Colorado and has great reviews


Can't get frame only unfortunately. I get it they make more on completes but not offering frame only option, especially for a smaller brand, is silly. I just inquired and GG was super responsive and even followed-up. Would like to give them my money but only interested in a frame...


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## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

it's likely gonna blow your budget but the coolest hard tails I've seen are from Nate Zukas out of Augusta, GA. He offers a huge range of options and geometry knowledge. His paint is as famous as his frames.


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## Chris Pringle (Oct 28, 2003)

Crockpot2001 said:


> it's likely gonna blow your budget but the coolest hard tails I've seen are from Nate Zukas out of Augusta, GA. He offers a huge range of options and geometry knowledge. His paint is as famous as his frames.


Yes, Zukas Cycles builds beautiful bikes indeed, but everything I see on his FB and Instagram are road and gravel bikes. I had to do a Google image search to find a few MTB’s and they all seem race-oriented XC hardtails with dated geometry. Not discounting what he might capable of building, but if I were to go the custom frame route, I personally might be inclined to go with a builder with more MTB experience with a proud gallery of his past work. For instance, Marino on the cheap side to Manzanita, Waltworks, Wildflower, Myth, Sklar, Engin on the high end. But there are many other good ones out there.


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## titaniumsprucemoose (Sep 2, 2021)

Scott Quiring (Quiring Cycles) is based in MIchigan. Perhaps not as widely known, but his custom steel frames start at $1800, as listed on this website.


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## titaniumsprucemoose (Sep 2, 2021)

A couple other builders, in the pacific northwest...

Wolfhound Cycles - fillet brazed, curvy and swoopy

Mjolnir Cycles - hardtail starting at $1100


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## hernanf86 (Sep 26, 2012)

SCTerp said:


> Can't get frame only unfortunately. I get it they make more on completes but not offering frame only option, especially for a smaller brand, is silly. I just inquired and GG was super responsive and even followed-up. Would like to give them my money but only interested in a frame...
> [/QUOTE
> 
> y





SCTerp said:


> Can't get frame only unfortunately. I get it they make more on completes but not offering frame only option, especially for a smaller brand, is silly. I just inquired and GG was super responsive and even followed-up. Would like to give them my money but only interested in a frame...


you are right, only completes from GG. I saw a 2022 size 3 frame in Pinkbike if you are OK with used and if it is the right size


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## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

Tl;dr not necessarily US made but branded Kona ESD?


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## 2sharp7 (Aug 29, 2013)

Not US based but just north of the border, I'd put a Knolly Tyaughton on your list!


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