# Is there another bolt-on (not Bafang) that has pedal assist and not just throttle?



## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

I've been looking into getting a bolt on e-bike motor for my 2018 Kona Operator dh bike.

There's a lot of 'throttle asssist' options out there but not many that also have 'pedal assist'. I think Bafang is the only pedal assist one i found acutally.

I don't like the bafang one because the way it's designed, it would make the motor sit super low. Here's someone who actually did it anyways and you can see just how low the motor sits: 




With the throttle assist options, however, there's a partiular type of design which places the motor further forward on the downtube. Here's a good example of one on the exact Kona Operator bike that i own:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BoFBPAnhDsg/

Lift mtb is another throttle motor that has the same style of design seen here on bike that's very similar to mine:

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http://instagr.am/p/B2bhervCjk1/

Notice how the motor sits slightly higher than the chainring. Also, because of the vertical rear spring placement, the Kona Operator happens to have a nice empty spot in the middle triangle for me to strap on a battery. This page shows a central battery placement: https://www.lift-mtb.com/accueil-faq-english/batteries-on-frame-or-back-pack/. This is the exact ideal configuration i need, but i need it with 'pedal assist' and not just throttle.

I want the pedal assist option because some places only allow Class 1 e-bikes (which is pedal assist) only and not throttle. For instance, Skypark is like that. I asked one of the employees there and they confirmed that throttle was not allowed.


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## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

Tongsheng makes a nice add-on kit, but it sits the same place as the bafang, it is slightly smaller and would give a bit more clearance. 

You do not need to have a throttle on the bafang, it uses cadence to activate the motor.

The tongsheng uses a torque sensor much like many factory builds on the market and like the bafang, you can add an optional throttle if you like.

It looks like the battery in the video will get hit by the front wheel when the fork is compressed, so a bag in the triangle or a backpack would be a better choice.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

That frame in the video was just a poor choice for the Bafang. Most of us who do our own conversions (I've done 4) buy a frame with the express thought of how the Bafang will fit, as in not too low like in that video. Second is how much frame space is there for a battery.


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

i didn't even know about bolt on motors when i bought my bike 4 months ago.

It's that curvature in the downtube that forces the bafang into a lower position. I've seen pictures of the straight downtubes with the bafang and there the motor sits higher.

The kona operator has a good amount of space in the middle so i can mount the batttery like you see in the pictures at the bottom of this page: https://www.lift-mtb.com/accueil-faq-english/batteries-on-frame-or-back-pack/

theres more examples of this mid battery position on there photos page too: https://www.lift-mtb.com/photos-video/photos-bikes/

im suprised theres so many throttle options and so little pedal assist options.

Somebody's gotta be working on this project already. A pedal assist but with a higher mount like the examples i've shown. i should just email those 2 companies and tell them to get on it.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

You should be able to pivot these motors more towards the downtube depending on frame and fit a battery in the middle, there are also different ways to put a battery like triangle battery.

You may want to look at the smaller bbs02 with a smaller battery or the tongsheng tdsz2. Those are the main options I have seen and parts are readily available.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Take a look at the Revel Propulsion thread. One of the great features of this system is that it changes from Class 1 to Class 3 with the push of a button on the display. Also, someone on this site is having the mounts custom-machined for more clearance. That wasn't necessary for me.


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

fos'l said:


> Take a look at the Revel Propulsion thread. One of the great features of this system is that it changes from Class 1 to Class 3 with the push of a button on the display. Also, someone on this site is having the mounts custom-machined for more clearance. That wasn't necessary for me.


I was about to give up until you just pointed me in the right direction. They have a custom mounting plate option. Going to email those guys right now.

Even their prices are pretty much what i'd expect to pay.

The one thing that crossed my mind was, since im putting this on 27.5, 200mm travel, size XL kona operator dh bike (with a 550lb spring btw, maybe this helps...?), does anyone have any idea what kind of climbing performance i can expect to get out of this give then specs of a this Revel motor. Where does this kind of motor sit on the spectrum of climbing power?:

https://www.revelpropulsion.com/mid-drive-motor

-450 Watts 
-Torque sensing pedal assist
-Class I (up to 20 MPH) or Class III (up to 28 MPH), with "off-road" mode.
-Adjustable assist levels from small handlebar mounted display
-Smooth, quiet FOC (field oriented control) motor controller

I understand that DH e-bikes are a thing now but still pretty niche. I also know that there's certain 180mm travel bikes like the Pole bikes that can climb decently. So assuming I throw on a dropper post, i can't be too far off from a decent climbing bike right?

I just checked on the specs of the Haibike DH e-bike and that ones only got a 250 W motor: https://www.haibikeusa.com/xduro/advanced-offroad/dwnhll/xduro-dwnhill-9-0-h-24.html

So i guess the Revel one should work even better right?

I think there's a cane creek rear spring that has a lockout feature too. Anyone know of any other simple upgrades that could help climbing?


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

I have been working with Paul at Revel regarding custom side plates to get the motor repositioned on my Santa Cruz Hightower.
He has been amazing to work with.

Someone mentioned that you need to choose the frame configuration before you decide to install a DIY assist.
That would be ideal, but by the time you buy the bike and then the assist, you could buy last years model Haibike for $3000. for example.
That works only if last years bike has the features, suspension travel and components you want.

In my case I had great $5000 bike that was getting left behind because I like riding the Haibike so much better.
Since I assisted the Hightower I have 2 bikes that I enjoy riding.
I knew from riding the Revel Demo bike that it did not assist as much as the Haibike.
I have timed both bikes on the same long steep climbs and I would guesstimate the Revel assists about 80% of what the Bosch CX assists on the Haibike.
The Revel only adds 9 pounds to the bike for a total of 40 and the Haibike weighs 51.
Plus the Revel goes 30% further on a smaller and lighter battery than the Bosch on the same trails and climbs.
I also get more if a workout due to less assist.
The assist quality of the Revel actually feels better or say more natural than the Bosch. 
The Revel is not silent, but quieter than the Bosch.
Of course the Bosch CX was recently updated and it needed to be.
I feel the Revel is what we have been waiting for
Highroad 2


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

Good to hear your feedback because the hightower downtube area near the bb is actually pretty similar to my kona operator so it's a really good point of reference. Do you have a picture of your Revel on the hightower? Curious to see just how far height-wise they can get that motor out of harms way.



highroad 2 said:


> I have timed both bikes on the same long steep climbs and I would guesstimate the Revel assists about 80% of what the Bosch CX assists on the Haibike.


Which model/travel Haibike were you riding? Was it fair comparison in terms of the travel/geometry/specs?

I actually have almost no experience with climbing. Just got into mtbing in socal area 4 months ago doing downhill at bike parks. There's a non-lift bike park here called Skypark with a short 12 minute climb to the top. I've just been walking my DH bike up there. This is the place that only allows class 1. Once Snow summit closes, it'd be nice to get that e-bike motor so i can ride skypark easier. I actually don't have much interest in the climbing as sport. It's really just so i can ride skypark easier and also access trails that look interesting that happen to have some climbing involved like the Moab area for instance.

I do know that most people consider a 150mm (non-motorized) bike to be a fair compromise between downhill and uphill performance. If i put a Revel motor on my 200mm kona operator, do you think it would at least be as easy to climb as a 150mm travel bike without any motor?

I feel like for this dh e-bike project of mine to be worthwhile, it would at the very least need to climb as well as a decent 170mm non-motorized bike right? Aren't those 170-180mm bikes at the outer limits of what's considered a tolerable climber?

Also, highroad, did you get to try the throttle assist mode on the Revel? I wonder if that makes the climbing even easier. I saw that recent article about how BLM and National park trails are going to e-bike legal soon and it did include throttle bikes.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Orange
I hope I can be of help answering your questions.
Haibike has 150mm travel F and R, tubeless 3.0
I coiled both F and R which adds 2 pounds to the bike.
The Hightower has 150 F and 135 R, tubeless 2.8 and I plan to coil both ends.
I weigh 220 ready to ride.

In my opinion, your downhill bike should do just fine with the Revel.
Its no secret that the lighter you and the bike weigh, the better the climb performance.
I assure you that the Revel assist will be much easier to pedal/climb than a “decent 170mm non motorized” bike, as in no comparison.
If you like your current bike, it’s a no brainer to assist it unless money is no issue to buy a factory 180mm bike.
I would send photos if someone told me a simple way from an i-phone.

The advantage of the Revel style assist system design over the Bafang style is that the motor and controller can be moved where you want by making longer plates and corresponding longer chain.
I experimented by cutting the stock Revel side plates and welding in extensions.
The stock Revel side plates placed the motor below the bottom of the chain ring 1-1/2” and by extending the plates the motor moved forward and up 1-1/2” above the bottom of the chain ring.

If you open the lift-mtb.com link as mentioned in a previous post, you will see that Lift has moved their motor forward and up to increase ground clearance which the terrain I ride requires.
Ego-kits.com has also done the same.
I noticed that Lift also placed the motor above the bottom bracket in the triangle.
In both Lift and Ego the batteries are carried in a backpack which I considered doing but prefer not to.
I believe both Lift and Ego are throttle only.
The trails I ride only allow class 1 and no throttles.

I have never ridden a 180-200 mm downhill bike.
I assume they do not climb very efficiently is because they are heavy and may not have shock lock outs.
I have considered throwing my 52 pound Haibike off a cliff when the battery dies and I have some serious climbing to get back to the car.
My 40 pound Hightower/Revel is so much easier to pedal when the assist stops. Due to less weight and the less internal drag of the Revel.
The Bosch CX has horrible internal drag.
The new generation assist systems are reducing internal drag for this reason.
If you want even less drag when the Revel battery dies, and you have a ways to ride, remove the chain.
Highroad


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

Paul from Revel just got back to me saying that my Kona Operator has a PF107 bb which isn't going to fit their torque sensing bb. It's too bad since everything else seemed to be ideal.

Highroad, did you find any other alternatives when looking for a bolt-on motor? It seems like we pretty much wanted the same things in a motor which are class 1 compatibility and the ability to mount the motor higher for ground clearance. As mentioned in my original post, it seems like there's not many class 1 bolt-on options out there at all.



highroad 2 said:


> Orange
> I assure you that the Revel assist will be much easier to pedal/climb than a "decent 170mm non motorized" bike, as in no comparison.
> If you like your current bike, it's a no brainer to assist it unless money is no issue to buy a factory 180mm bike.
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

I have no clue what the dimensions are of a pf-107.
Does the 107 mean it’s 107mm wide?

Cyclone, Ego-kits.com, lift-mtb and Revel are the only common mid drive kits that I know of that use a chain drive.
Chain drive allows the motor to be placed where you want with some fabrication as I have done with the Revel.
The Revel in stock form works and looks great, you lose ground clearance with many frame designs.
I would check to see if it can be made to be class 1 legal.

I use the shock lock outs on my Santa Cruz when there is a long climb and I am doing all the work.
Every little bit helps when not assisted.
With my 2 mid drives I do not bother locking the shocks and forks.

I went with the Revel because it is class 1 legal and has torque sensing.
Plus I can modify that design do it does not hang down.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Pedal assist is all in the controller and the magnet ring around the bb, or torque sensor.


The KT kits are good, I believe the Leafmotor and Leafbike have those available.
BMSBattery as well, might have what you are looking for.
Greentime Controllers
Kelly Controllers
Sabatov Controllers
Even the Xie-Chang aka Infineon which are the square wave generic controller have assist.
Lyen controller are old tech, and quite expensive.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

You can add MXUS factory in China has mid drive with pedal assist. I looked at your video, gosh that motor is small, I am so used to the Cyclone monster.

Lightning Rod mid drive might have something too.

Here is a list
https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/
There will be something in there thats legal wherever in the world you are.


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

been trying to find the time to sift through some of those recent suggestions so i can respond back to this post.



highroad 2 said:


> I have no clue what the dimensions are of a pf-107.
> 
> With my 2 mid drives I do not bother locking the shocks and forks.


Good to know that e-bike motors do really provide a significant margin of improvement.

Based on my feedback from Revel, my main hurdle now is finding something that's going to work with the Shimano PF107 BB. It's hard to pinpoint but from doing some brief research, it does seem like 'pf107' means a 107mm wide bottom bracket. The info on this page seems to indicate that: https://wheelsmfg.com/bb-standards . Can anyone else confirm this?

As originally posted, this an an ego-kit (non-class 1 throttle style motor) mounted on my exact bike which was my original indication that this project might not be too far fetched.

__
http://instagr.am/p/BoFBPAnhDsg/
Couldn't find much info on their website regarding bb width compatibility though.

The other crucial thing, as highroad mentioned, is that i'm looking specifically for a 'chain drive' style motor which allows for that ground clearance.

matt4x4, a lot of the examples you posted are still in the problematic bafang style format which looks like a rock could take it out.

An exception to that would be lightning rod motor which does look like a chain drive. However after looking at the specs of it on this site: Two Stage Small Block Mid Drive - Lightning Rods, it says that the bb compatibility is: ISIS Bottom Bracket (68mm-100mm) . So no 107mm.

matt4x4, can you elaborate more on this point: "Pedal assist is all in the controller and the magnet ring around the bb, or torque sensor."

From what i can gather, it seems like you're suggesting an even more DIY version of this project that involves pairing up a regular throttle style motor with a 3rd party electronic component that will enable pedal assist? if this is the correct assumption, my question is: would this inherently quality for it for class 1, or do you need to get it tested/registered? Also, how difficult would this project be for someone with no experience in tinkering with electronics? And what type of performance quality can i expect compared to the more pre-package options out there?


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Mr_Orange said:


> I was about to give up until you just pointed me in the right direction. They have a custom mounting plate option. Going to email those guys right now.
> 
> Even their prices are pretty much what i'd expect to pay.
> 
> ...


OK so there is a motor and battery for $1250 that weigh a total of only 10 lbs? Cool!!!

However, if the Revel is 450W and the battery is only 378Wh...uh...that's not so cool. I guess you could carry a 2nd one in a pack just in case.

What is the nominal wattage of the Revel; I assume 450W is peak, correct? I hope it's not 450W all the time if you are pedaling like some of these XC racers do or you'll burn through that battery in 45 minutes or less. Is it 200-250W nominal and 450W peak? Are the watts adjustable through the display? Or just by the pedal torque? Still less than 2 hours of battery though, that's kinda scary for remote trekking.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Mr Orange
I have been doing pedal assist bikes for 3 years.
I do not pretend to know much, but will share what little I know.
What ever assist system you buy, be very careful about support for the product the day of purchase and down the road.

Revel is a new company and I feel comfortable with them because I have been to their shop, talked to Paul on the phone and have had email and text communication. Yes, they may not be around in a year.
That can happen to any business.

First you need to measure your bottom bracket (bb)width in millimeters and preferably know the inside diameter of the bb.
This may require you to take the bike to a shop if you do not have the tools.
Some bb have threaded bearing supports and some have pressed in bearing support.
You need this info before going any further.

Since Revel apparently can not help, your only other choice in my opinion is Luna.
I have heard they have a good reputation of standing behind there product.
They offer the Cyclone and the mini cyclone which operate on the same principle as the Revel.
They have side plates that attach to the bb that allow the motor to be positioned further up and forward than the Bafang style motor.
If the stock side plates do not position the motor where you want it, then you can make the plates longer and lengthen the chain like I did with the Revel.
The benefit of Revel is that they will machine plates to any reasonable length.
The Cyclone has a reputation of being noisy from what I have been told.
I have also been told they have improved the noise.
The Revel is very quiet.

I believe the cyclone can be operated without a throttle like the Bafang can.
I have no clue how natural of a pedal feel it would have.


I wish you well


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

highroad 2 said:


> I believe the cyclone can be operated without a throttle like the Bafang can.
> I have no clue how natural of a pedal feel it would have.


I actually did look at the cyclone when doing my research and now i remember the reason i glossed over it is because it you go on their purchase page and scroll down: https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-mid-drive-3000w-planetary-kit/, the option for pedal assist says 'none'.

Otherwise their format is that exact chain drive style i want. Plus in their description it says: 'Options to upgrade to Fat kit for 83-120mm bottom bracket sizes'

So hopefully that includes my 107 bracket.

I think it's worth contacting these guys and clarifying some of this. I'll report back. They're actually real close to where i live so it'd be very convenient if they could make some sort of custom mounting bracket for me.

The other thing i've been considering is that since there's all these BLM and national park trails now opening up to e-bikes and part of their rules covers class 2 throttle e-bikes, i might just go for a full throttle assist motor.

Does anyone know of a map where i can look up all BLM and national park trails now all open to E-bikes? Suprisingly hard to find. I feel like if i find this map, and spend an hour youtubing some of these trails, i might just be sold on a throttle assist bike. Might have to create a separate thread to cover this topic.


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## Leebherron (Jan 21, 2004)

Go to the "People For Bikes" website. They have a page where eBikes are legal to ride in the USA.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Recently Lake Tahoe opened many of their trails to e bikes, and it appears the BLM is now being sued for not opening the issue to public comment.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

I would be curious what you find out regarding if the Cyclone is throttle only.
If it has pedal assist option, I would be interested in it for another project.


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## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

Mr_Orange said:


> The other thing i've been considering is that since there's all these BLM and national park trails now opening up to e-bikes and part of their rules covers class 2 throttle e-bikes, i might just go for a full throttle assist motor.


While all 3 classes are included in the BLM statement, it also says that the bikes must be ridden using the pedals, not throttle only.

"On August 29, 2019, the Secretary of the Interior issued Secretary's Order 3376 to increase recreational opportunities for all Americans, especially those with physical limitations, by clarifying the regulatory status of e-bikes on Federal lands managed by the Department. As a matter of policy, low-speed electric bicycles, as defined by federal law and SO 3376, operated in the pedal assist mode should generally be given the same access as traditional bicycles."

here is the policy page:
https://www.blm.gov/policy/ib-2020-003


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

The throttle on the Bafang is actually more refined than the pedal assist. If you are in the higher PAS and make a small move with the pedals it takes off. With the throttle you can fine tune acceleration. Of course u can also put it in lower PAS.


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

TheBikeStore said:


> While all 3 classes are included in the BLM statement, it also says that the bikes must be ridden using the pedals, not throttle only.
> https://www.blm.gov/policy/ib-2020-003


I think they need to clarify these rules a bit more:
So does this mean you can hit the throttle just as long as you're pedaling also?

Or do they mean you can have a throttle mode on your motor but you need to be switched over to a pedal assist mode while on the trails for it to be legal (and never use the throttle mode)?

I got some feedback from Luna regarding the cyclone. Here's some of what they wrote:

_The Cyclone does not come with PAs or peddle assist but you can install 
a cadence sensor to make it peddle assist. Having said that 
you will only have 1 speed or 1 peddle assist level and that's 100%.
Only the BBSHD and BBS02 come with 9 levels of peddle assist.

The Cadence sensor that can be installed on the cyclone 
only does 1 speed which is 100% power on the motor. You can kind of control it with different gears but you will always get 100% power from motor.

Yes the 100-110 BB should fir your application providing your Bottom Bracket is JIS/BSA standard. If it's not that the motor will have issues fitting. Please check with the bike manufacturer to make sure it's the correct bottom bracket._

I didn't even consider the idea of getting onto different speeds with a pedal assist. I wonder if how essential it would be. The few areas of trail where i do climb on my DH bike, i tend to end up on the lowest gear anyways. So maybe that's okay if i'm just using climbing as a means to get to the top and not trying to set any records.

The other thing i just discovered is the acronym PAS stands for pedal assist. Some of the earlier motors i glossed over never mentioned 'pedal assit' but did refer to it as 'PAS'. Here's some more chain drive style motors that might be candidates, im going to email them about their bb compatibility. Anyone know about these?:

https://www.electricbike.com/tangent-ascent-6kw-the-ultimate-mid-drive/
https://www.cycmotor.com/x1-pro
https://www.aft-ebike.com/why-choose-aft.html


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## Carrera911xc (Jul 25, 2006)

dundundata said:


> The throttle on the Bafang is actually more refined than the pedal assist. If you are in the higher PAS and make a small move with the pedals it takes off. With the throttle you can fine tune acceleration. Of course u can also put it in lower PAS.


I've had good success with reprogramming Bafangs to feel a lot more fluid and seamless. Not going to say it matches my Steps E8000, but it can definitely be pedaled smoothly on single track. Most of my friends prefer the BBS to my Steps (lazy ebikers!).

I still think the Bafang is the lowest headache DIY mid drive kit, just because of the volume of knowledge and parts out there.

As someone else mentioned, selecting a bike with a threaded BB and a straight down tube makes life a lot easier. BBSHD can be used on PF91 bb's, but be aware it's larger and heavier.

Bike closest to camera is BBSHD


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

Carrera911xc said:


> I still think the Bafang is the lowest headache DIY mid drive kit, just because of the volume of knowledge and parts out there.


I'm curious to hear from someone who uses a Bafang on this info from Luna:
_"The Cyclone does not come with PAs or peddle assist but you can install 
a cadence sensor to make it peddle assist. Having said that 
you will only have 1 speed or 1 peddle assist level and that's 100%.
Only the BBSHD and BBS02 come with 9 levels of peddle assist."_

So, how essential is to be able to change speeds on an e-bike and in particular a downhill-ebike. As mentioned, on those short section of trail where i do climb on my downhill bike, i quickly end up on the lowest gear anyways and even then the climbing is still often very difficult. I can see that if you're racing, you'd want a few gears to account for the variatons in climbing steepness so you can get the fastest time. But if im climbing just to get to the top of the trail or so that i don't have to walk my bike in those climbing sections in a middle of a trail, does it really matter if i just stay on the lowest gear? Am i missing something here?


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## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

Mr_Orange said:


> I'm curious to hear from someone who uses a Bafang on this info from Luna:
> _"The Cyclone does not come with PAs or peddle assist but you can install
> a cadence sensor to make it peddle assist. Having said that
> you will only have 1 speed or 1 peddle assist level and that's 100%.
> ...


You would still be able to change your bikes gears, they are saying that the assist level will be maximum power say 750w as soon as you turn the pedals with the cyclone, no matter what gear you are in on the cassette. The bafang would have 9 different power assist levels. When you turn the crank on level one, you get around 50% of the power available (375w) and at level 9 you get 100% (750w) of the power when you pedal. This power % is independent of what gear your bicycle is in. When you ride up hill on an eBike, just like a regular bike, you will want to shift to a lower gear in the back for climbing.

With either the cyclone or the bafang motor kits, you should have a brake kill switch if you are using the pedal assist feature. You can use the brake lever kill switch as a clutch for tight technical bits.

If you have you power assist on the pedals with the cyclone or the bafang on level 9, when you turn the pedals a half turn, the bike will surge forward. This is the problem with the cyclone only being able to use full power with the pedal assist.

I have never seen the cyclone first hand, but I have sold many Bafang bbs02 and Tonsheng kits over the past several years.


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## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

Mr_Orange said:


> I think they need to clarify these rules a bit more:
> So does this mean you can hit the throttle just as long as you're pedaling also?
> 
> Or do they mean you can have a throttle mode on your motor but you need to be switched over to a pedal assist mode while on the trails for it to be legal (and never use the throttle mode)?


Per the guidelines, bikes must be operated in PAS mode (pedaling, not using a throttle if so equipped.)

Bikes with a throttle will always be able to use the throttle. There is not a separate PAS mode and a throttle mode. If you have a PAS system and you are pedaling along and then use the throttle, the average onlooker would not be able to tell that you are using the throttle (this would still be in violation of the policy). However if you start out on an uphill with only the throttle and suddenly reach 20 miles per hour without using the pedals, that would be a violation of the policy that might be enforceable.


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

TheBikeStore said:


> Y
> If you have you power assist on the pedals with the cyclone or the bafang on level 9, when you turn the pedals a half turn, the bike will surge forward. This is the problem with the cyclone only being able to use full power with the pedal assist.


I'm assuming you're saying this might feel too abrupt, almost like if you're going fast and you pedal with a gear that's too high for that speed. Would this be a problem though if you were on the right gear? So for instance, maybe on the lowest gear at level 9, the motor is delivering too much power for a certain incline. If you then switched it to a higher gear (making it harder to pedal up), that same amount of power from the motor just might be right for the incline.

It's almost like saying that with something like a bafang, you have a more nuanced degree of fine tuning your climb by way of two different adjustments: 1) assist power level from the motor and 2) the different gears on your bike.

With the cyclone, you can only fine tune by changing gears.



TheBikeStore said:


> Per the guidelines, bikes must be operated in PAS mode (pedaling, not using a throttle if so equipped.)
> 
> Bikes with a throttle will always be able to use the throttle. There is not a separate PAS mode and a throttle mode. I


If this is the case than throttle is definitely still not an option in light of these new BLM laws. I wonder were people are even riding these throttle motors then? Are they just getting onto motorbike trails? I seriously thought the Bafang had the ability to switch modes. I vaguely remember hearing about it in some video. Even earlier in this same thread dundundate posted this:



dundundata said:


> The throttle on the Bafang is actually more refined than the pedal assist. If you are in the higher PAS and make a small move with the pedals it takes off. With the throttle you can fine tune acceleration. Of course u can also put it in lower PAS.


So what do we mean by this? Is there maybe a Throttle Bafang version and a PAS Bafang version like how there's automatic and manual versions of the same model car...?:


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## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

Mr_Orange said:


> I'm assuming you're saying this might feel too abrupt, almost like if you're going fast and you pedal with a gear that's too high for that speed. Would this be a problem though if you were on the right gear? So for instance, maybe on the lowest gear at level 9, the motor is delivering too much power for a certain incline. If you then switched it to a higher gear (making it harder to pedal up), that same amount of power from the motor just might be right for the incline.
> 
> It's almost like saying that with something like a bafang, you have a more nuanced degree of fine tuning your climb by way of two different adjustments: 1) assist power level from the motor and 2) the different gears on your bike.
> 
> With the cyclone, you can only fine tune by changing gears.


Sort of. If you are riding on the flat with the cyclone or bafang on level 9 and you try to u-turn around on the street, when you pedal the motor will kick in with 750w of power and you will likely shoot across the road at a high rate of speed regardless of the gear you are in at the back. Most DH bikes only have a 26t large sprocket on the back and the bafang bbs02 spins at 110rpm with a 36t front ring the slowest the bike will travel is 12 mph and at that speed, things can get dicey making sharp turns. If you had a bbshd, it spins at 130rpm and that means the slowest you can go is 14mph (by the way, the bbshd is not an item that is to be discussed on the e-bike forum per the guidelines posted). So a kill switch on your brake is the best way to deal with this surging that will happen at full power.

Your second and 3rd statements are correct.

With the bafang, you will be spinning freely most of the time regardless of the gear you are in the back. The motor spins too fast for most people to keep up with it. You move your legs any speed you want and as soon as you pedal, the crank will spin 110 rpm and all feeling is lost. Unless you are on a steep hill and you let the motor bog down in too high of a gear and then you can pedal along at a normal pedal cadence, but you risk burning up the motor.

I know you said you don't want the bafang, but if you go that way, I would get the bbs02 with a modified bb length to work with your frame vs the bbshd due the the speed the motor spins at.


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

TheBikeStore said:


> So a kill switch on your brake is the best way to deal with this surging that will happen at full power.


I was looking on the Luna site and found this: https://lunacycle.com/remote-on-off-solid-state-switch/

Is this what you're talking about?

I can see how being able to turn on the motor just in areas where the steepness matches the power/gear could be useful.

Can you really constantly turn one of these motors on/off all the time though? Would that not mess with the motor? Seems like you'd need to be able to do this about 15 times throughout the course of a climb with the way trails get steeper and flatten out.


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## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

Mr_Orange said:


> I was looking on the Luna site and found this: https://lunacycle.com/remote-on-off-solid-state-switch/
> 
> Is this what you're talking about?


No, I am talking about a sensor attached to your brake lever that allows you to slightly squeeze the lever without truly engaging the brakes and then the kill switch will pause the power to the motor while you make the maneuver you need to make, then when you release the brake lever the motor will resume at the power level it is set at. Essentially creating a 'clutch' to disengage the motor on demand.


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## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

Mr_Orange said:


> If this is the case than throttle is definitely still not an option in light of these new BLM laws. I wonder were people are even riding these throttle motors then? Are they just getting onto motorbike trails? I seriously thought the Bafang had the ability to switch modes. I vaguely remember hearing about it in some video. Even earlier in this same thread dundundate posted this:
> 
> So what do we mean by this? Is there maybe a Throttle Bafang version and a PAS Bafang version like how there's automatic and manual versions of the same model car...?:


You can use a class 2 bike (750w max power with a throttle and a max speed of 20 mph) on BLM land per the order, but the bike needs to be pedaled to use the motor, not the throttle.

With the Bafang, you can customize the controller with software and a programming cable to work with only the throttle or only the pedals. The bafang kits come with default 
set to work with both at the same time, so you can choose to pedal or just scooter along with the throttle or some combo of the two of them. There is no "PAS" or "throttle" mode with the bafang, just customization that can be done by the owner.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

The pas circuit is in the controller, so if Luna's controller only has 1 assist level, then you could find another controller with multiple levels of assist.

That is why I mentioned the KT display kits because I have ridden those, and with those KT displays, you need a KT capable controller. They are programmable which is a bonus. All the pas is a ring of magnets you attach around the bb, there is no torque sensing. Once a magnet on the rotating crank passes over the ring on the bb, it will give you power. Once you get into torque sensing the price sky rockets. Look at www.ebikes.ca quality components and if I am not mistaken I believe you need the Cycle Analyst with that, I could be wrong but I remember recently reading about that.

I bought my KT display and controller from conhismotor, they have a sister company Hallomotor, exactly like Leafbike and Leafmotor.

Here is an example of the $11 magnet system pas
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32336491298.html?spm=a2g1y.12024536.productList_8344463.subject_15
as apposed to a $150 torque sensor bb + $150 Cycle Analyst



> I'm curious to hear from someone who uses a Bafang on this info from Luna:
> "The Cyclone does not come with PAs or peddle assist but you can install
> a cadence sensor to make it peddle assist. Having said that
> you will only have 1 speed or 1 peddle assist level and that's 100%.
> Only the BBSHD and BBS02 come with 9 levels of peddle assist."


There are various brackets you can buy that will protect the motor from logs and rocks. I believe Luna Cycle probably sells the brackets, but they are always expensive over there.
$120usd Luna Cyclone 3D Cyclone Mounting System - That could be your one stop shop, if not for Bafang/Cyclone.

More on various mid drives.
The GNG mid drive is no good I read. The GNG 2 bracket looks fancy.
Lightning rods has custom brackets. Laser cut, not sure what it'd fit.
AFT out of Australia uses the same motor Cyclone does which is the Headway motor, but probably a beefier bracket.
EGO is getting into the RC stuff 
Sunstar mid drive looks the same as Bafang, and MXUS
XOFO Motor has no real clear picture of the mounting
Tong Sheng TSDZ2 has torque sensing, but is very small.
Tangent is RC based motor

Other then that, maybe look for a bicycle frame that you can rotate the motor up above the bottom bracket. Or find a small enough motor to do the same. If protection is a factor for you, logs, rocks. You could fabricate your own protection plate, maybe beef up the side plates. A grinder or whatever, or take to cnc/laser cutter to copy. I know when I first saw the zip tie for my cyclone, I was like whaaaaat, same went with the skimpy little tensioner. It all worked out though. What I never liked about it was that it made a louder sound then my direct drive motor. Maybe the cyclones controller was not a sine wave controller to reduce the noise, but the gears meshing would make a sound. I dunno because I hear people say matched with a sine wave controller that they are pretty silent. Trapazoid waveform controllers are definately louder then sinewave.

As for motor cutoff switch, there are brake levers with them built in but I'm not sure how decent the generic Wuxing brake levers are themselves.
Here are better quality ones
Tektro Dorado HD-E710
Then there are cables you can buy like https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/tripwire.html


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

You can simply not install the throttle. The rule makes no sense though and was probably written by someone with no experience. The throttle allows for fine tuned acceleration. Otherwise with PAS you may want to customize through software.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

dundundata said:


> You can simply not install the throttle. The rule makes no sense though and was probably written by someone with no experience. The throttle allows for fine tuned acceleration. Otherwise with PAS you may want to customize through software.


Agreed, the rule doesn't make sense. It says this: " As a matter of policy, low-speed electric bicycles, as defined by federal law and SO 3376, operated in the pedal assist mode should generally be given the same access as traditional bicycles."

And then this:" to authorize the use of Class I, II, and III e-bikes, as those terms are defined in section 4 of SO 3376, where other types of bicycles are allowed."

Which are defined as:"For the purpose of this Order, "e-bikes" shall mean "low-speed electric bicycle" as defined by 15 U.S.C. § 2085 and falling within one of the following classifications:

i) "Class 1 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a
motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour;

ii) "Class 2 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a
motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour; and

iii) "Class 3 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a
motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of28 miles per hour.

So, PAS only or not? Is pedaling while using a throttle acceptable? Or throttle only?


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

Mr_Orange said:


> I've been looking into getting a bolt on e-bike motor for my 2018 Kona Operator dh bike.
> 
> There's a lot of 'throttle asssist' options out there but not many that also have 'pedal assist'. I think Bafang is the only pedal assist one i found acutally.
> 
> ...


CYC X1 Pro

https://www.cycmotor.com/

Available with pressfit BB torque sensor options. Email Jon and tell him what bike you have and what your looking for. The motor is designed as a 3000 watt motor but has three modes, EU Legal 250W, USA Legal 750W, and Max Power 3000W. All are adjustable in the app and you can switch between modes from the display. I have one installed on a RSD Mayor Fat Bike. For local trail riding I only use the 750W mode and there is no throttle installed on the bike. On private property (my friends) I've used the max power mode and with the Vee Tire Snowshoe 2XL tires the bike rolls over just about anything. Can't wait for the first snowfall of the season.

Downsides to this motor is it pulls a max of 70 amps in max power mode so you want a battery that can handle that if you do plan to use that mode. That and the chainline can be difficult to set up as the motor design moves the chain ring towards the frame.


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

TheBikeStore said:


> No, I am talking about a sensor attached to your brake lever that allows you to slightly squeeze the lever without truly engaging the brakes and then the kill switch will pause the power to the motor while you make the maneuver you need to make, then when you release the brake lever the motor will resume at the power level it is set at. Essentially creating a 'clutch' to disengage the motor on demand.


i think this is the video that shows what you''re talking about:


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

matt4x4 said:


> The pas circuit is in the controller, so if Luna's controller only has 1 assist level, then you could find another controller with multiple levels of assist.
> 
> That is why I mentioned the KT display kits because I have ridden those, and with those KT displays, you need a KT capable controller. They are programmable which is a bonus. All the pas is a ring of magnets you attach around the bb, there is no torque sensing. Once a magnet on the rotating crank passes over the ring on the bb, it will give you power. Once you get into torque sensing the price sky rockets. Look at www.ebikes.ca quality components and if I am not mistaken I believe you need the Cycle Analyst with that, I could be wrong but I remember recently reading about that.


matt4x4, thanks for all the feedback. I remember looking up some of your advice earlier and found it pretty confusing and DIY heavy. Now im starting to understand it a bit more.

For instance, I think i for sure want torque sensing now that i know what it is. Cadence is not going to cut it for me.

*Got a few more questions for you:*

1) Luna only mentioned that you could combine a cadence sensor with the Cycone, but do you know if you can also modify the Cyclone to have a torque sensor with it? That website www.ebikes.ca is a great resource btw and i did find a page on torque sensors: https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/torque-sensors.html

2) Also, from later in your feedback, it sounds like you own a Luna cyclone right? So did you already do the KT controller mod to give it more power levels? if so how did it work out and how was the quality compared to other motors with multiple power levels? How's the climbing experience even with just cadence sensing and no torque sensing?

3) Since you seem to be well versed in e-bike DIY, to what extent can you modify/hack any throttle-only-system to give them torque sensing PAS (and also multiple power levels, and brake sensing, etc)??

EGO is a good candidate for this since I already know that it would fit my bike frame:

__
http://instagr.am/p/B2bhervCjk1/
. So dimension-wise, its already good to go; it just needs torque-sensing PAS.

Or (as an example of using DIY to make a motor more frame compatible) i was about to get the Revel motor until they said that the biggest compatible bb width is 100mm. So assuming i get the mounting brackets customized too, can i just find the right sized torque sensor for my bike and merge it with the Revel motor? here's the revel: https://www.revelpropulsion.com/store-1/revel-450w-motor-kit-2


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

JVG1967 said:


> CYC X1 Pro
> 
> https://www.cycmotor.com/
> 
> Available with pressfit BB torque sensor options. Email Jon and tell him what bike you have and what your looking for.


I've actually been in contact with Jon. Here's what he had to say about compatibility with my Kona Operator that has a pf170 bb:

*If you need to install on a PF107 you will need to install with a 120mm ISIS bottom bracket version now.

**It is a BSA120mm BB and it will need a 41mm to bsa adapter: https://www.ebay.com/itm/J-L-BB92-BB86-BSA-Bottom-Bracket-Conversion-Adapter-Convertor-/301825746922*
_*Then it will install without problem. The chainline meanwhile may need to move out a bit, but that depends on the original chainline on your bike.*

_Can you elaborate more on this since you also mentioned something about the chainline here?:


JVG1967 said:


> That and the chainline can be difficult to set up as the motor design moves the chain ring towards the frame.


So Jon said the chainring might move outwards but you're saying for you it had to move inwards. Is this a fatbike related issue for you where maybe the fatbike chainline is just further out because of the wide wheels? Also, you must be using the 120mm bb right since it's the widest option they have? My only hesitation in going to 120 is that i heard the wider q-factor messes with some people's knees while pedaling (I'm 5'10"). What's your experience with this? I might have to rent a fat bike for a day to see if this is a problem. I've also heard there's cranks with a smaller q-factor.



JVG1967 said:


> Downsides to this motor is it pulls a max of 70 amps in max power mode so you want a battery that can handle that if you do plan to use that mode.


Which battery did you end up going with? I didn't see one on their online store. Is there a specific type of cable port that you need to make sure your battery cable fits into? How long does it last for you?

Since the start of this thread, the cycmotor is so far the only one that checks all the boxes. Im going to add torque sensing as a must-have too since i now know what that is.

I've been in contact with Ego kit too and they said that they're actually coming out with a pedal assist version of their motor soon. So far, EGO is the only example of a motor that fits my pf107 bb without compromise (

__
http://instagr.am/p/BoFBPAnhDsg/
) so there's good reason for me to hold out for this one. They wouldn't elaborate too much on this new motor though.

I also was trying to get in contact with Tangent, another chain drive style one: https://tangentmotors.com/obsession. I couldn't find any contact info on their site so if anyone knows their email/number, let me know.

Emailed as well AFT but they never replied.

In general, thanks for all the feedback guys, but i'm really not savy when i comes to diy electronics. Unless there's clear instructions, im gonna have a hard time connecting the dots. This is why im leaning more towards the more prepackaged solutions.

For all the BLM stuff, i think im going to have to create a separate thread to address all those issues.


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

Your situation will be different than mine as your using a larger (120mm) motor vs your BB width (107mm). In your case the chain ring will be moved out (away from the frame) due to the wider BB spindle. You can move it back in some with chain ring spacers but adjustments are limited. Also you can only run spacers on the non drive side of the motor due to its design. This will definitely effect the Q factor or spacing of the crank arms which will now be further apart than without the motor. 

Battery wise I know several people using a Luna Wolf Pack with this motor with no problems. Your concern is the design of your frame as that will be the limiting factor if you plan to use a frame mounted battery. 

Welcome to the joys of the custom build.


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## Mr_Orange (Nov 20, 2014)

JVG1967 said:


> Battery wise I know several people using a Luna Wolf Pack with this motor with no problems. Your concern is the design of your frame as that will be the limiting factor if you plan to use a frame mounted battery.


That battery is shaped nicely in a way where you can really tuck it into the head tube area. i wonder how much climbing time you get off a full charge. I usually make it a 5-6 hr session of riding each time. If the battery life really isnt enough, I could probably just buy 2 and swap them out in the parking lot halfway through the day.

Another option is this: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/n...34-cRPb5ofo7L97t7KlpbB2LfpZl4v5aJvZ5cyxcyTApH

This way you can really fill in that negative space in the frame. That battery is explained more here: https://www.electricbike.com/tangent-ascent-6kw-the-ultimate-mid-drive/

For the wider q-factor issue, I'm thinking the best way to deal with this is just getting a lower q-factor crank...? im going from 107mm to 120mm so if there was just some crank that shaved off 6mm of q-factor on each side relative to my current cranks (Raceface chester), that should do it.

Jon said that the 120mm is a BSA120mm ISIS BB. Does anyone know what im supposed to search for in terms of crank compatability? Is it just any ISIS splined crank?


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## d3ftone (Oct 20, 2015)

I've also been looking around for a pedal-assist only mid-drive kit to put on my Pole Evolink. Highly considering the Revel Propulsion as well. Just recently came across this company and wanted to get some opinions...

https://www.gngebike.com/mid-drive-kits

Any other kits I should be looking at?
What batteries should be at the top of my list?

Thanks in advance.


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