# modern mtb lugs?



## Peter E (Feb 16, 2004)

is anyone making lugs you can use building a mtb with modern geometry (like sloping toptube, fit a 100-130mm fork etc.) ?


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

Nope.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Time to fire up the tig welder*

Order yourself a bunch of .058" wall tubing and make 'em yourself.

Of course, I've talked about doing that for years, and years, and years. And I've never actually done it.

There might still be some Pacenti Slant 6 lugs floating around somewhere. Those can work for mountain bikes.

-Walt


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

you can get the slant 6 from  Llewellyn


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

Do you have to pay shipping from Australia? I realize I could just email Dazza, but as I'm not at the point of being a real customer right now, I'd rather just bother the forum rather than someone who's actively working on his real job.


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

I order from Dazza and small boxes via Air Mail are not expensive and get hear within a week.

-Joel


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

order a lot and then he picks up the shipping

The order I got came as fast as anything I get from HJ or Nova, but I live on the East Coast


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Feldybikes said:


> Do you have to pay shipping from Australia? I realize I could just email Dazza, but as I'm not at the point of being a real customer right now, I'd rather just bother the forum rather than someone who's actively working on his real job.


Pm me a email and I'll forward you the pdf of his price list and shipping info


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## Peter E (Feb 16, 2004)

Why are there countless of lugs for road bikes and not a single set for mtb?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Not enough demand*

Simple, making them would not be very profitable, because very few people want them, and most of the people that do need something weird enough that they have to have the lugs custom made anyway (the slant 6 will only work for a few things).

For bikes where 73/73 and fixed fork lengths tend to rule (ie, road bikes) lugs are great. For stuff where the geometry is all over the map (mountain bikes) they kinda suck.

-Walt



Peter E said:


> Why are there countless of lugs for road bikes and not a single set for mtb?


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

there have to be sales of a couple hundred sets of lugs just to break even on the tooling. I have a long-standing bias towards lugs, but really there is no significant advantage over other construction techniques. People tend to look at them as having the advantage of compensating for builder malpractice/lack of experience. While this is true to some small extent, they are no panacea. There are plenty of broken lugged frames out there.


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

Thanks for the responses. j-ro, email sent.


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## GAAP (Oct 5, 2008)

I've built 26" lugged MTB's. They come out nice, but will require some manipulation of the lugs and the BB shell. I am considering a 29r.

I order the lugs in bulk, directly from Dazza. I use them mostly for big road bikes. I keep a good qty on hand, if you need some.

I can tell you where to get the best BB shell too, as it is different than an XL-OS road shell.

GT


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## Peter E (Feb 16, 2004)

-Where can I find info on the slant 6 lugs? Tube size, agles etc. 

-What/who is Dazza?

-How many deg can a lug be bent, roughly, 1, 2 deg, more ?


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Dazza


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## JaquesN (Sep 14, 2009)

*question from a fillet brazer*

I have not built a bike with lugs, but I'm curious as to why the Henry James mountain lugs and the ones from Nova won't work? Is it the 1-inch steerer? Or are the angles available too restrictive?


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## illcomm33 (May 10, 2006)

*Lugs for a 29er*

I am wanting to use lugs for a 29er and this post is perfect. Dave Hill from Victoria cycles has done some great work with MTB lugs...not sure exactly what he is using but I know he has made some great looking MTBs.
http://victoriacycles.com/Home_Page.html

1) Does anyone have any guidance for a lugged 29er single speed? 
:thumbsup:

2) I need brass and silver rods/flux. Henry James seems to be the place to go....any other options to save some cash for a brand new builder!?

Cheers


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Why not ask him?*

Email or call him and ask. I'm guessing he is making his own lugs for that stuff, but who knows.

1. Yes, get some metal and start practicing. Same advice as for building any other kind of bike.

2. Yes, HJ is the place to go. Framebuilding is not cheap, c'est la vie. http://www.cycledesignusa.com/ also has really good stuff.

-Walt



illcomm33 said:


> I am wanting to use lugs for a 29er and this post is perfect. Dave Hill from Victoria cycles has done some great work with MTB lugs...not sure exactly what he is using but I know he has made some great looking MTBs.
> http://victoriacycles.com/Home_Page.html
> 
> 1) Does anyone have any guidance for a lugged 29er single speed?
> ...


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## illcomm33 (May 10, 2006)

*Thanks*

Walt,
As usual quick reply and great info. Thanks man. I will give Dave an email/call and see what the deal is. I did talk with him at the handmade bike show at the Leadville 100 race...I am pretty sure he said he was shipping them in. Once I figure it out I will post.

Not sure if anyone can help...but how much brass (rods/flux) should I buy from HJ? 
Remember I am brand new (besides the frame I built at Yamaguchi). I plan on getting some solid tower/brazing practice AND building a 29er SS (X2)

Don't want to under/over order. Thanks all in advance!

T


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

illcomm33 said:


> Walt,
> As usual quick reply and great info. Thanks man. I will give Dave an email/call and see what the deal is. I did talk with him at the handmade bike show at the Leadville 100 race...I am pretty sure he said he was shipping them in. Once I figure it out I will post.
> 
> Not sure if anyone can help...but how much brass (rods/flux) should I buy from HJ?
> ...


2 pounds of each will be plenty for a frame and some practice.

FWIW, There isn't a lugged BB shell made that will fit a 29er out of the box. You basically have two options- use an mtb BB and deal with a high bb or be able to tweak the shell to give you the right drop (Paul's-type dropouts would help here too) OR use a road BB and tweak the shell to give you enough tire clearance.
Either way, you'll want the fork to be as short as possible.


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## illcomm33 (May 10, 2006)

*How about the flux.*

So based on the previous post I will be ordering 2 lbs of brass 1/16 diameter rods. How much flux (how many containers) should I order to to go with it?

I do want to use lugs so I will need to get some 56%. Yikes...that stuff aint cheap. 1 oz for $30 doesn't seem like it will go very far. Any pointers on how much silver it takes to do lugs (say bb, and headtube)
Thanks!

GASFLUX PASTE FLUXES*
SELECT THE PASTE THAT MATCHES THE BRAZING ALLOY. DO NOT MISMATCH!
•Type "B" PASTE FLUX-Brass*/#.......$11.25

This matches the melting point of Silver
GASFLUX BRASS BRAZING RODS*
•GASFLUX C-04 BRASS ROD 1/16" Diameter*
Our most popular diameter rod
for general fillet brazing
First pound, ......................$17.00
Each additional lb.................$15.50


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

illcomm33 said:


> So based on the previous post I will be ordering 2 lbs of brass 1/16 diameter rods. How much flux (how many containers) should I order to to go with it?


That's what I meany by 2 pounds of each. 2# of brass, 2# of flux (it comes in 1# jars).
You'll likely run out of flux before brass, but for most folks it's fairly close.


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## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

No need to fire up a TIG welder, you could make some with an O/A torch. Or do the bilaminate thing people are doing.


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## Peter E (Feb 16, 2004)

Couldn't find any info on the slant six lugs on llewellyn's site. Anyone know tube sizes and angles?

What is "the bilaminate thing" ?


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## GAAP (Oct 5, 2008)

Slant Six was the trade name used by the distributor that dazza used to use. He now distributes them himself under the name XL-OS. I have mechanical drawings I can send you. Basically they are 73/73, 6* slope top tube, 35mm DT, 31.8 TT & ST. They are the best choice for a lugged mtb. I use them a lot and keep a good stock on hand. Gt


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Live Wire said:


> That's what I meany by 2 pounds of each. 2# of brass, 2# of flux (it comes in 1# jars).
> You'll likely run out of flux before brass, but for most folks it's fairly close.


I know Walt already plugged me, but just to pound it in....I also sell silver solder, bronze and fluxes along with Wade under the website

http://www.cycledesignusa.com

Gasflux products are very good indeed but If we didn't feel ours were equivalent or better we wouldn't hock them. We have everything you could possibly want to join a bike frame (we have TIG supplies too, just haven't put them up yet).


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

illcomm33 said:


> I do want to use lugs so I will need to get some 56%. Yikes...that stuff aint cheap. 1 oz for $30 doesn't seem like it will go very far. Any pointers on how much silver it takes to do lugs (say bb, and headtube)
> Thanks!


Yeah and its only going to get more expensive in the short term. Silver is going up and up (currently close to 28 an ounce) and since 56% is more than half silver you can see where the price comes from.

It takes most people about 2.5 oz to make a bike frame/fork. Of course the size of the lugs matters, the amount of them and if you are doing a fork or not. If you add in some practice lugs/sleeves you could be looking at 3-4.

We sell a product called "system 48" which is....surprise! 48 percent silver It is very good for general lug brazing and also can be used for filling gaps or slights fillets (bridges, stays). It runs 115.00 for 5 oz. We also sell 1 Oz quantities if needed


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## Peter E (Feb 16, 2004)

dont think my TIG skills are good enough but it would be fun to give it a try. How would you mitter the tubes ? A, B, C or some other way ?


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

C, and you don't want the vent hole to be that big. 3/8" at the largest


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## Levi Strauss (Jan 20, 2008)

http://www.longshen.com.tw/products_view.asp?Pidno=200608140004

they have many different sizes


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

Drew of Engin Cycles makes some kicka$$ mtb lugs.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

There's really no reason to use/want lugs on a mtb other than looks. Too restictive. Ditch the lugs, open up the universe of diameters, profiles, and geometries.


-Schmitty-


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Schmitty said:


> There's really no reason to use/want lugs on a mtb other than looks. Too restictive. Ditch the lugs, open up the universe of diameters, profiles, and geometries.
> 
> -Schmitty-


I agree. But......

If you are doing it like Drew than you can create a lug to fit almost any situation. If a lug can fit the application then it is a good alternative.

I admit that rarely today that a production lug will really fit into modern MTB geometry but the concept of a lug as reinforcement is a good one. I know some of you will think differently but lug construction if done well and the lugs designed well (no sharp edges or obvious stress risers) will have greater fatigue life than a TIG joint and will look nice to boot. Few of you are building these things for money so why not explore the possiblities for TIG, fillet and lugs?


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

Does anyone know what kind of TIG rod allows you to lay down a brass fillet over? Drew of Engin Cycles does it regularly, I've asked him in the past but he did not respond. (trying to keep a secret??)


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

No secret. Anykind of filler should work for straight up steel. Stainless would need Fillet pro is my guess. You could grab any pos made in taiwan tig steel frame, clean it, and lay fillets over the welds.



-Schmitty-


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

hmm... I must be doing something wrong. I tried and it seemed the brass wanted to jump off the tig bead. Did I just not have it hot enough? I'll give it another shot.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Probably dirty*

The brass is going to want nice fresh clean steel to stick well. So make sure your tig bead is really, really clean (even a little surface grinding might be good). And make sure you're NOT using 880 or 309 or 330 or any of the stainless rods. Brass won't stick to them.

Probably easier to just fillet from the start, though.

-Walt



Cracked Headtube said:


> hmm... I must be doing something wrong. I tried and it seemed the brass wanted to jump off the tig bead. Did I just not have it hot enough? I'll give it another shot.


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

Well duh, thats my problem. I had tried on 880. Thanks


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Cracked Headtube said:


> Does anyone know what kind of TIG rod allows you to lay down a brass fillet over? Drew of Engin Cycles does it regularly, I've asked him in the past but he did not respond. (trying to keep a secret??)


 I think what you are looking for is Silicon bronze, it has a bunch of garbage in it like tin and zinc and possibly a little aluminum but it flows like liquid olive oil buttah. It is the hot glue of the tig world, you can literally stick anything to anything with it.(except aluminum of course) Its trade name among the oldtimers is "everdur" and its often used to build small stuff up for machining, it wears hard but cuts well with a file and finishes smooth.
Its hard to lay stackodimes with it so dont try, its not to be used for main joints but works well for binders and little stuff. 
Heres some pics of a bi-lam I made with a pass over on cro-moly and the same piece with the binder attached.


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