# 36 hole Speedhub in production?



## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

I found this link in my inbox this morning:

Rohloff Speedhub 500/14 goes 36 | bikestation.fi

It claims Rohloff will begin producing a 36-hole Speedhub, which should be available in October. A quick search and I couldn't come up with any other sites to corroborate this info, including UNTERNEHMEN: www.rohloff.de.

My 32-hole Speedhubs have definitely proven reliable on my tandem and cargo bike, but I see this as a welcome addition to the product line.


----------



## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Nothing wrong with 32h, but I don't know why they didn't adopt 36h from the start.


----------



## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

I honestly don't think it needed 36 as they hold up to pretty extreme tandem loads, but it sounds like electric motors finally made it a necessity. But with only 2 additional spokes per side, I'm guessing they completely redesigned the hub shell & the number of bolts holding it together -- not like that 48 spoke conversion that simply drills extra holes in the 32 hole flange.

I wonder if, just like Rohloff stopped making a tandem specific version of the hub and instead began drilling all the spoke holes oversized in all versions of their hubs, they'll do away with the 32 hole version altogether and sell just the 36 hole version. Four extra spokes isn't going to crush anyone's dream of a lightweight Speedhub setup.


----------



## JimInSF (Oct 30, 2010)

Yeah, the 32 hole Rohloff is more than sturdy enough for almost all sane applications, but if true, this will make the 36er guys happy since those Nimbus wheels do not come in 32 hole. Matt, this post is for you!


----------



## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

Alex Nutt of MTB Tandems checked in with his sources and confirmed this; says they're coming 1st of 2012.

I would imagine the shell would be available separately and existing guts can be transferred, should the need arise.


----------



## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Speedub.Nate said:


> Four extra spokes isn't going to crush anyone's dream of *a lightweight Speedhub setup.*


Right, lightweight 



JimInSF said:


> Yeah, the 32 hole Rohloff is more than sturdy enough for almost all sane applications, but if true, this will make the 36er guys happy since those Nimbus wheels do not come in 32 hole. Matt, this post is for you!


More like 36er *guy*. Won't see too many Rohloff'd 36ers out there...

I think I'd still take a PW regardless, especially if they'll color match my front hub  Although a huge polished silver hub would look sweet - I recently ordered a Ti HBC spirdeless chainring as a "rain dance" maneuver.

In all seriousness (and this is mainly speculation), I'm pretty suspicious of Rohloff on this one. Seems very odd to me that all these years go by without a 36 hole option, then PW says they're bringing a shell to production in the next few months (they've been saying its a week from production since February) with just about whatever number of holes you want drilled (24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 48). Rohloff then tries to halt PW from doing so (reading between the lines after months of calling PW and asking around), is eventually unsuccesful, but oh wait!, all this time we've been redoing our tooling to produce our own shell about the same time PW will finally gets theirs out to the public. Thanks PW for showing your prototype to the world 

Will be interesting to see if PW will still bring theirs out, may be a large enough market of people wanting non 36 hole drillings and/or the bling factor.



Speedub.Nate said:


> Alex Nutt of MTB Tandems checked in with his sources and confirmed this; says they're coming 1st of 2012.
> 
> I would imagine the shell would be available separately and existing guts can be transferred, should the need arise.


Good luck purchasing a shell at all from Rohloff. From what I've been told firsthand you can only get a shell when yours has been damaged to the point it is unsafe (broken flanges, etc). I believe the thought is too keep people from taking their $800 ebay Rohloff, putting a brand new $200 shell on it and passing it off as new to the unsuspecting customer, which makes sense. Although a hammer creates a pretty good loophole on that one...


----------



## estutjaweh (Jan 3, 2008)

As far as I understood it... the European boom in electric supported bicycles has led rohloff to bring out the 36 spoke versions. I think it had something to do with bike manufacturer costs being less for 36 spoke rims due to quantity and these manufacturers putting the pressure rohloff.

I also heard a rumour that many cyclists were reverting to extra thick spokes due to their fear of only having 32 spoke holes. If I were rohloff, I would 'kill two birds' as it were and offer the 36 spoke versions to increase customer trust and reduce the number of flange failures through thick spoke use.


----------



## JimInSF (Oct 30, 2010)

I don't think they're having a lot of flange failures now... in fact I've never heard of one. Not that I think they don't exist, but I would guess this is very uncommon and I doubt they would be adding spokes to address it. People think of Rohloffs as indestructible already. If more bike builders are using 36 hole wheels on the other hand, adding the option might make sense.


----------



## Keener (Feb 25, 2005)

"More like 36er *guy*. Won't see too many Rohloff'd 36ers out there..."
----mbeards

I love my 36er
and I love my rohlloff hub on the cargo bike.
And would like have the two in one bike however.

I see the problem would be gearing under ratio as per der book of rolloff to get to mt bike gear inch range.

How much under ratio are people getting away with?


----------



## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Keener said:


> "More like 36er *guy*. Won't see too many Rohloff'd 36ers out there..."
> ----mbeardsl
> 
> I love my 36er
> ...


I run my 29er under the warrantied range at 36x16=2.25 at 220lbs. I will run my 36er WELL under at 32x16=2.0. That will still give me a decent top end and should keep me mostly above 8. Gear 5 is also decent in terms of efficiency so this ratio coincides with what I have been running SS for the last year. No way to get usable range within warrantied ratio, but both of my Rohloffs are second hand so not warrantied anyway. I have heard of a dozen or so people running close to 2.10-2.15 without issue for years.

If you do any damage it will only be to the nylon "rollers" that are supposedly very cheap and easy to replace. Apparently Rohloff engineered it this way so as to not damage anything important by over torquing, and I don't think I'll ever have enough power to compare with what Rohloff claims they warranty for (2 elite cyclists in sync on a tandem). It would be interesting to hear what actual torque amount they calculated to compare with some power data I have.


----------



## warren2975 (Jun 6, 2009)

I break spokes on my Rohloff regularly. I rebuilt my back wheel a few months ago for a new bike - DT Champion spokes and a Salsa Gordo 26 rim. I've done about 5000 km since then, 3000 of which were loaded touring. I recently broke a spoke on the disc-brake side, at the nipple. I broke spokes in the same place when I had the Rohloff in my Fargo. I am going to rebuild with Sapim Force triple butted spokes. I'd love a 36 hole Rohloff though, not only because it'd be a stronger wheel, but because I'd be able to lace it up to a Kris Holm rim. 

So now I have to decide whether to get a second Rohloff or get the Phil Wood shell. Or both.


----------



## estutjaweh (Jan 3, 2008)

If your breaking spokes ta the rim, its probably the rim at fault. Are your spokes bent where they join the nipple? 26" rims are small and the IHGs like Nuvinci or Rohloff have huge flanges making teh spoke angle too flat - which causes teh bend when the spoke tries to join the nipple. Some rims are drilled at angles to avoid this problem or get a rim which has no eyelets before rebuilding the wheel or it may all be a waste of time.

36 spokes will not change the angles and your problem will probably not be resolved.


----------



## warren2975 (Jun 6, 2009)

Interesting. I'll look for other rims, I guess. I'd still like a stronger wheel in general though.


----------



## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

warren2975 said:


> I break spokes on my Rohloff regularly. I rebuilt my back wheel a few months ago for a new bike - DT Champion spokes and a Salsa Gordo 26 rim. I've done about 5000 km since then, 3000 of which were loaded touring. I recently broke a spoke on the disc-brake side, at the nipple. I broke spokes in the same place when I had the Rohloff in my Fargo. I am going to rebuild with Sapim Force triple butted spokes. I'd love a 36 hole Rohloff though, not only because it'd be a stronger wheel, but because I'd be able to lace it up to a Kris Holm rim.
> 
> So now I have to decide whether to get a second Rohloff or get the Phil Wood shell. Or both.


Just wanted to check if you laced it 2X. I've had mine for a while on a VXC 700c with 20/18spokes and no problems at all despite denting the rim constantly with rocks.


----------



## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

The nipple area seems to be a trouble spot for some people. Trying to get the nipples inline with the spokes seems to be best.

As far as gearing goes, I wanted 60 g.i. with gear 11. I used 36/17 to get 61.4. This gives me 11 mph @ 60 rpm. 14.6 @ 80. 16.4 @ 90. This also gives a range of 17.1 / 90.1 g.i. which is perfect for my Pugsley. No problem whatsoever running this combination.


----------



## warren2975 (Jun 6, 2009)

finch2 said:


> Just wanted to check if you laced it 2X. I've had mine for a while on a VXC 700c with 20/18spokes and no problems at all despite denting the rim constantly with rocks.


Yeah I did.


----------



## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

warren2975 said:


> Yeah I did.


I suppose loading it up for touring would the the best way to stress the spokes. What kind of weight is it taking? Just curious...


----------



## warren2975 (Jun 6, 2009)

finch2 said:


> I suppose loading it up for touring would the the best way to stress the spokes. What kind of weight is it taking? Just curious...


190 pounds of me - average weight. 37 pound bicycle if you include the racks, fenders, etc. back panniers - 40 pounds. front panniers - 20 pounds. and 10 pounds in water bottles on the frame. 297 pounds in all. About 135 kg.

I ride hard though, and I brake hard. I had the rohloff in my Fargo (29er) before, and I broke spokes a few times on that. But every time I've broken them, on the Fargo, and on my current bike, it's always been at the nipple, and always on the disc brake side of the back wheel. I think spokes are breaking because of the disc brakes, my heavy load, and the way I brake.


----------



## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

It could also be how the broken spokes were cut to length & threaded, assuming they aren't factory length but are being cut "Speedhub short" by a shop with a inferior threading machine.

Truth be told, I've only **read** of the difference between rolled vs. cut threads (cut being weaker due to the material reduction creating a weak point at the nipple), but every threading machine I've come to use in the field (like, three maybe?) roll the threads. My assumption is it would be difficult to find a threading machine that cuts threads. But still, it's something to consider...


----------



## warren2975 (Jun 6, 2009)

Speedub.Nate said:


> It could also be how the broken spokes were cut to length & threaded, assuming they aren't factory length but are being cut "Speedhub short" by a shop with a inferior threading machine.
> 
> Truth be told, I've only **read** of the difference between rolled vs. cut threads (cut being weaker due to the material reduction creating a weak point at the nipple), but every threading machine I've come to use in the field (like, three maybe?) roll the threads. My assumption is it would be difficult to find a threading machine that cuts threads. But still, it's something to consider...


It was a Phil Wood Spoke Cutting and Threading machine; the threads are rolled.


----------



## BenSwayne (May 15, 2011)

I've got a big dummy cargo bike with a Rohloff. I'd have preferred a 36 hole version for sure! That being said I've never had a problem so far. So maybe its just fear? ;-)

@warren2975 what kind of brakes do you use? Brand/model, hydro/cable, rotor size?
- Ben


----------



## warren2975 (Jun 6, 2009)

Avid BB7, 160mm rotor in the back.



BenSwayne said:


> I've got a big dummy cargo bike with a Rohloff. I'd have preferred a 36 hole version for sure! That being said I've never had a problem so far. So maybe its just fear? ;-)
> 
> @warren2975 what kind of brakes do you use? Brand/model, hydro/cable, rotor size?
> - Ben


----------



## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

For anyone interested, Cyclemonkey will have 36h speedhubs in stock in 1.5-2 weeks so that is awesome.

What isn't awesome is Rohloff not selling the hub shells so no conversions from 32h to 36h - what a load of crap. I understand they want to make more money but give me a break...


----------



## mdyply (Dec 20, 2009)

I hate to go into these inane little absurdities of bicycle engineering (that probably don't make one bit of a difference) but... will the 36h hub still be limited to a 2 cross lacing. Wouldn't a 32h 3cross wheel be stronger than a 36h 2cross? Just wondering...


----------



## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

mdyply said:


> I hate to go into these inane little absurdities of bicycle engineering (that probably don't make one bit of a difference) but... will the 36h hub still be limited to a 2 cross lacing. Wouldn't a 32h 3cross wheel be stronger than a 36h 2cross? Just wondering...


You can do 3 cross in 36h, and yes I believe generally the more crosses you have the stronger the wheel up to the poiny where spokes cross 90 deg leaving the flange. I'd think the extra 4 spokes may be a wash with the lost strength in your question though.


----------



## estutjaweh (Jan 3, 2008)

@mbeardsl:- Rohloff won't sell hub shells apparently because they do not wish stolen hubs/old hubs/out of warranty hubs to be given a new identity by changing the serial number engraved shell. Earning a little extra money through selling shells separately could in theory cost them a lot more than they stand to earn through warranty claims.

If you had to sell a 32 hole version, and buy a 36 hole version (because a conversion is not possible) then how is rolhoff earning more money? They are still only selling 1 hub and still only 2 customers have hubs - I don't understand the argument. If making money was their #1 concern, would it not make more sense that they offer shells separately to anyone who wants a new one (to refurnish their bike/change color/upgrade to 36 hole)?

36 hole shell swap. Not possible. The 36 hole shells require a new hub-cap with 9 screws as opposed to the usual 8. The hub caps need to be swapped-out by rohloff or cyclemonkey because of special tools being needed etc. 

3x lacing in a 26" wheel will result in nasty kinked spokes where they join the nipples (see google images for proof). Spokes will break here more quickly. The speedhub shell is so large that the theory about spoke crosses and wheel durability must be adapted to the size and design of the shell.


----------



## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

estutjaweh said:


> @mbeardsl:- Rohloff won't sell hub shells apparently because they do not wish stolen hubs/old hubs/out of warranty hubs to be given a new identity by changing the serial number engraved shell. Earning a little extra money through selling shells separately could in theory cost them a lot more than they stand to earn through warranty claims.


Incorrect.

You can get a replacement if your shell is broken (but not a new original which is what I'm complaining about). To get a 36h replacement for your 32h broken shell (can anyone say hammer?) you turn in the shell to Rohloff (through Cyclemonkey) who then decides what to charge you based on whether it's under warranty or not. They then send you a new shell, I'm assuming with the same serial number engraved. Or they could end it with a "C" or "W" to denote that it isn't the original.



estutjaweh said:


> If you had to sell a 32 hole version, and buy a 36 hole version (because a conversion is not possible) then how is rolhoff earning more money? They are still only selling 1 hub and still only 2 customers have hubs - I don't understand the argument. If making money was their #1 concern, would it not make more sense that they offer shells separately to anyone who wants a new one (to refurnish their bike/change color/upgrade to 36 hole)?
> 
> 36 hole shell swap. Not possible. The 36 hole shells require a new hub-cap with 9 screws as opposed to the usual 8. The hub caps need to be swapped-out by rohloff or cyclemonkey because of special tools being needed etc.


You're asking how they are making more money selling you a $1200 hub instead of a $200 shell?? The fact you sold your 32h to someone else means nothing to Rohloff as they aren't collecting anything from it - that money went from new guy to you, not new guy to Rohloff. Someone buying a used hub very likely would not have bought new anyways (both of mine were used, well broken in, and nearly half price). Whether they would make more selling shells depends on how many people would convert. At 1/6th the revenue they would need to convert more than 6x as many hubs as they sell to come out ahead. I doubt they like the sound of that and would rather not put in the effort of managing that process on that scale.

I wouldn't swap my own shell, would certainly send to Neil so I know it was done right and well worth the small price.



estutjaweh said:


> 3x lacing in a 26" wheel will result in nasty kinked spokes where they join the nipples (see google images for proof). Spokes will break here more quickly. The speedhub shell is so large that the theory about spoke crosses and wheel durability must be adapted to the size and design of the shell.


26" wheels are clearly not the only option out there. My wife's 26er is 2 cross, my 29er is 3 and most commuters/touring rigs will be 3 if they're rolling on 700s. My 36er will eventually be 3 cross when Rohloff comes to its senses, Phil Wood gets theirs finished, or I get crafty with my current shell and some tools.


----------



## estutjaweh (Jan 3, 2008)

I am afraid to say that you are not entirely correct. You cannot get a new shell if it breaks - you can get it replaced! Rohloff will not supply shells even for warranty cases unless you are in the middle of butt-f**k-nowhere and cant physically get to a shop. If you wish to then receive a 36 hole version as opposed to a 32 hole version, you will still have to pay the equivalent of a disc brake conversion extra, because as I peviously said:- "The 36 hole shells require a new hub-cap with 9 screws as opposed to the usual 8".

For Info:- The serial numbers are always different because rolhoff dont actually build the components in house apparently. These are all our sourced throughout Germany and the numbers are always consequtive. If a shell breaks (as mine did), they fix it with a new shell and you have a different number. The number is re-registered so that they know how old the internals are in this new number hub and you do not get the old shell back - I wanted to use it as a desk tidy but received the reason I have passed on in my previous email.

Just a question...we were all crying out loud for 36 hole versions...now they're available people are still *****ing. I don't get it. Shimano, Sram, Sturmey Archer (why all with 'S'??) don't sell hub shells separately if you bought the wrong one, or an earlier model...so what is the argumant with Rohloff for? They are doing no different than every other manufacturer...in fact, they actually seem to be answering our demands of late what with 36 holes, round shifter with visible numbers etc. If I were to change components in my company to satisfy customer demand...only to have my efforts valuated as unjust and unfair, then I wouldn't listen next time and save myself the effort.


----------



## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Neil says otherwise regarding replacement of 32h with 36h shell. Your past experience may have been different. Did you work with Rohloff directly or through a distributor? I don't understand your point about the hub cap. Buying a new shell would obviously include both sides of the shell.

I'm b***hing about this because Rohloff has the ABILITY to sell the shells at whatever cost they want but are UNWILLING to do so. If they gave a reason that made sense (or a reason at all) I'd certainly listen. Otherwise this is like your car mechanic telling you they could very easily sell you a $200+ part to upgrade your transmission but they won't. Sorry you're going to have to buy a new one for $1200. Why? No reason. Whether or not its the intent, this comes off as greedy to me but maybe I'm alone.

I also just want more for Rohloff given the work they've put into their product as they aren't maximising their share of the pie. However, if Phil Wood comes out with their shell as they have said they will in whatever drilling and color you want, they will get my money along with many others (and very likely more of it than Rohloff would have gotten given PWs pricing in general). I know they have a healthy waitlist and are working through some final issues with Rohloff regarding retaining waranties on the internals. They say "go" and I'm in. As much as it pains me, Rohloff loses out of their own stubborness.


----------



## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

hmm, interesting on the 36h. I wonder how long it will take Rohloff to come our with a 142×12 setup if ever...seems like the industry is headed that direction.


----------



## seitenryu (Oct 15, 2009)

re-- 142x12mm

That's totally unlikely as 90%+ of complete bikes under $2000(even $3000 with Rohloff), including touring and trekking, are still 10x135mm QR. It's obvious after examining their exploded parts view and close-up photos that a 12mm through-axle just isn't possible. They would have to re-engineer the most complex, tightly toleranced and expensive component of the hub--the axle. In the past they've had trouble even finding a firm capable of machining the axles to a suitable tolerance. 

Cycle Monkey, and Neil in particular, are always suuuper helpful. I'm sure he'll do what he can to make the upgrade/exchange, if possible, a painless process. If you have a hub with a current warranty and Cycle Monkey(or your regional service center) complete the work and update your warranty, I can't see a reason Rohloff won't comply. Think of Rohloff as a patient and thoughtful parent--they will do what's best for everyone as a whole if a genuine NEED is found. That usually doesn't include "trends" "I wants" or "new".


----------



## MonkeyWrench (Feb 7, 2006)

36 hole hubs landed on my doorstep this morning! All colors and configurations are available, just as with 32 hole hubs. There are 9 hub cap screws instead of 8 to keep the spoke spacing even. These hubs use different hubshells, hubcaps, and hubcap gaskets, but the rest of the parts are the same as with the 32 hole hubs. 

I cannot currently offer replacement shells for non-warranty exchange as Rohloff does not make hubshells available for aftermarket purchase. If Rohloff decides to make them available in the future I will offer retrofit service. As with any work involving disassembly of the hub, the original hub will need to be sent in for service.

Neil


----------

