# Bad Newbie, Bad



## wg (Dec 20, 2003)

From the Tilley trail in Rockville, CA. today.

So, this is not that difficult of a line in either direction. Coming up the climb from the other direction is a challenge. Its walkable with no problems if need be.... 
WFT people!!! This wasn't here last week. The ground is wet and the pic doesn't show the gouge as well as it should.

Stay on the friggin trail dipstick. :madman:

There are enough illegal cheater lines as it is in this park stop f'in it up for the rest of us by making more.


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## Jwiffle (Jan 26, 2004)

that sucks.


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## ArmySlowRdr (Dec 19, 2003)

yeah I betcha it was some racerboy or gal or racer wanna be that goes all out every ride no matter what to shave fractions of time off his/her aggregate. To shave said time they'll cut off any corner and run every grandma off the trail.

grandmas have lots more to watch out for than reindeers these days--haha


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

THat bypass is absolutely retarded. But I wouldn't see a line like that on my rides.


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## mofoki (Feb 1, 2005)

I'm familiar with your anger about this kind of bull####. We have a couple of retarded trail vandels who call themselves naturalists that keep tearing every log jump, rock, or huck out of the trails. Basically the trails are so easy a 5 year old could ride them on a Wallymart special. Sad thing is I know who it is and can't do anything to stop them. It makes for more danger because you can't count on the trail being the same from day to day.


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## Calvissimo (Oct 7, 2007)

Not only is it offensive, it's also kind of stupid. I mean, it doesn't look any easier or safer than just riding the trail.


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## ScreenName (Jan 14, 2006)

man that ground must be some kind of soft!!


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## scorpionwoman (Jul 7, 2006)

It is possible that it was accidental--ran off the trail and kept rolling as best they could to keep from falling over.

Or maybe that's just the Pollyanna in me...


But ASR, please don't be railing on the racers. I may just dabble in racing these days, but I feel like I should stick up for those of us who like to go fast on the trails. I've never met a racer who would purposely cut across a trail like that.

We're *way* too concerned about being in control of our steeds.


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## NoManerz (Feb 10, 2006)

Time for some old barbed wire and rusted posts


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## KeepTheRubberSideDown (Dec 1, 2006)

I have seen people do that before on switchbacks. Put down some logs and rocks to emphasize exactly where the trail is.


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## JMac47 (Apr 23, 2004)

*Not sure, but.....*



wg said:


> From the Tilley trail in Rockville, CA. today.
> 
> So, this is not that difficult of a line in either direction. Coming up the climb from the other direction is a challenge. Its walkable with no problems if need be....
> WFT people!!! This wasn't here last week. The ground is wet and the pic doesn't show the gouge as well as it should.
> ...


....I think I saw fp taking a similar shortcut today in Skyline!!


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## Carl Hungus (Nov 29, 2005)

*That's called a b!tch line*

If you can't ride it, walk it.


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## jaeman (Dec 16, 2007)

Carl Hungus said:


> If you can't ride it, walk it.


That's spot-on! :thumbsup:


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## AllKnowing (Nov 5, 2007)

Reaallly? No realllly? You folks are really outraged at somebody cutting that corner? I think who ever cut that corner could see it wasnt right how you folks are damaging that tree for your own selfish amusement. Wont be long that trees roots will be exposed. You wanna ride over trees, ride over dead ones.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Allknowing aside out here in the desert we have this fantastic trail we built in public land on the outskirts of town. It was initially a wildcat trail but is very close to becoming a legitimate trail. 

In the beginning we were a small group of 11 riding it and building it. We had sole domain over it and rode it as we saw if. Needless to say as the trail bedded in we decided to let others in on our little secret and soon the word was out. More and more cyclists began using it. It wasn't until the beginner's began using it that the multitudinous straightening of the esses began. 

I have always chalked this up to the unbridled passion that a new cyclist has and their overzealousness creating a situation of too much speed and needing to straighten the turns. Eventually I ran into a set of these newbies and it wasn't speed it was a lack of skill and desire to beat their friends that was prompting them to shortcut.

Lacking the ability to ride quickly but wanting to be competitive they were straightening every corner they could and even cutting through the desert to shorten long switchbacks on flat ground. 

I mention to them that if they want to drag race there was a perfectly good road bounding three sides of our trail.

Solution of course was to fill the most common offending areas with cactus drop which over time has rooted as cactus pads will do and has greatly lessened the shortcutting. Cactus is a great solution to any shortcutting area.

I recommend that the OP find whatever pieces of tree, rock, or trail trash that they can and get it over the lower line because as more and more newbies begin shortcutting they will cause a serious erosion line under that tree and it will get undercut during the rains and eventually fall.


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## Redmon (Jan 12, 2004)

AllKnowing said:


> Reaallly? No realllly? You folks are really outraged at somebody cutting that corner? I think who ever cut that corner could see it wasnt right how you folks are damaging that tree for your own selfish amusement. Wont be long that trees roots will be exposed. You wanna ride over trees, ride over dead ones.


Yea, it does upset me. Every time someone decides to make their own line it destroys what we like to call "singletrack" The trail is where the trail is. Maybe with better foresight they could have routed the trail away from the tree but Im willing to wager that tree will be standing long after that trail is gone. Quite frankly it looks intentional and that sucks.


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## wg (Dec 20, 2003)

I do move stuff (rocks etc) when possible. This pic doesn't really capture the up/down around the tree. Coming from the pic side, its a fairly easy roller. The approach doesn't warrant the speed to screw up and make that cut accidentally. From the other side, its a steep grunt. Even good riders are not exactly blazing the line up. The Tree has 1' root to lift up and over while climbing.
My guess, intentional idiocy.

This park is getting taken over by cheater lines. People are moving the rocks and branches to make their own personal lines. Especially on the steeper technical stuff.


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

:smallviolin: :smallviolin: :smallviolin: 

Man,.... there are a lot more important things to stress over. Unless it is your trail on your property, get over it man.... I can't believe that you found it so appauling that you actually stopped your epic ride to take a picture of it..... Bet you thought about your MTBR post the whole ride back home.... huh?


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Posting like a noob...*



sodak06 said:


> :smallviolin: :smallviolin: :smallviolin:
> 
> Man,.... there are a lot more important things to stress over. Unless it is your trail on your property, get over it man.... I can't believe that you found it so appauling that you actually stopped your epic ride to take a picture of it..... Bet you thought about your MTBR post the whole ride back home.... huh?


Your new is showing. Once you assume Stewardship for a trail you'll spend hundreds of hours designing, building and maintaining both a relationship with the Land Manager and the trail itself. You'll become invested and take personal ownership in trying to keep the trail in proper working order. In short, you're passionite about the trail in which you've invested your time.

And when posers and ignorant people tear it up, you become upset. And then you try to educate people that cutting trails is a bad thing. And that new riders typically cut trails because they lack the skills to ride the line. And more experienced riders typically know better and have walked their share of lines they can't ride.


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## jibmaster (Sep 28, 2006)

scorpionwoman said:


> But ASR, please don't be railing on the racers. I may just dabble in racing these days, but I feel like I should stick up for those of us who like to go fast on the trails. I've never met a racer who would purposely cut across a trail like that.
> 
> We're *way* too concerned about being in control of our steeds.


After every race in the woods around where I live, almost every corner is cut short, there are new short cuts straightening out some cool little twist in the trail, trash is everywhere and all the corners have loooong skid marks going into them.
It's all about getting from A to B as fast as possible. No style. Mt. bike racing is kinda like what ski racing used to be. A chinese downhill. No rules. No points taken away for dabbing. Hell, you don't even have to ride your bike to win a bike race. As long as your the first one to the finish line, that's what counts. It's not about the ride, it's about finishing first. I've seen the races and almost every rider will get off his/her bike and run across a technical section. 
I just don't get it. Bike racing is stupid. I'll respect bike racing when they give and take points away for style or lack thereof. No dabbing. Ride it clean or you lose.


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Ken in KC said:


> Your new is showing. Once you assume Stewardship for a trail you'll spend hundreds of hours designing, building and maintaining both a relationship with the Land Manager and the trail itself. You'll become invested and take personal ownership in trying to keep the trail in proper working order. In short, you're passionite about the trail in which you've invested your time.
> 
> And when posers and ignorant people tear it up, you become upset. And then you try to educate people that cutting trails is a bad thing. And that new riders typically cut trails because they lack the skills to ride the line. And more experienced riders typically know better and have walked their share of lines they can't ride.


Ahh...
There is no "new" here and I can understand the passion that one gets once he has taken a trail system as his own. However, it is dirt and grass man, and that is it.. 90% of the responses on this threat immediately assume that the rut was caused by some idiot noob, without really knowing the cause. It looks to me like it was a muddy / rainy day, and maybe someone did cut the corner, do you think they knew that there action would have caused a rut like that? Maybe they just messed up and went off trail, not everyone is a pro rider here. :eekster:

I understand that there is a blatant disrespect to trails in some cases, but this one does not look to be that way. It is not that hard to push the dirt and grass back into the rut and flatten it out, if it really causes you to loose sleep at night. The OP spent more time taking pictures and writing this post than it would have took to fix a rut three times a large. I am just saying that people worry about too much BS, you are suppose to be riding your bike for fun and to relax, not get fired up over a measly rut on your favorite trail.. 

ride on people,......


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

NoManerz said:


> Time for some old barbed wire and rusted posts


No it isn't


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

How exactly do you think that new "line" was made.

It does not appear to be a shovel, only one bike road it and made a cut in like that??

The slope appears unstable, it appears that even if one rider made that cut, that the whole thing maybe ready to sluff if it gets real wet.


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## xray_ed (Oct 9, 2004)

I don't know the writer of this, but he says it well. Copy & paste from http://www.druidcity.org/mtnbiking.html

Don't modify the trail because you can't clear the obstacle where others can. Please do not cheapen the mountain biking experience by making the trails or obstacles easier. Notching or removing logs, clearing rock piles, widening turns, etc only robs the community of the challenge and fun of mountain biking. It is especially senseless when the obstacle has been in place for a long time. What if somebody paved the whole trail? Think about how that would take away from the experience.
If we cannot ride an obstacle, we walk it without shame. We all have our abilities, and these must be challenged in order for them to be increased. Suppose someone thinks an obstacle is too hard. It would negatively impact everyone if he went out there and constructed a sidewalk wide smooth bridge over the obstacle. This would not make anyone happy except him and riders of his ability, but at the same time it would deprive him of any possible challenges in the future. We have 50 and 60 year olds (I'm 53) who regularly ride all the trails and obstacles. Occasionally I don't make it over something and fall but that is part of the sport.
Whenever someone has altered an established trail or obstacle, they have forever denied everyone of the opportunity of riding it and challenging themselves. We suggest you search for the main group who built and maintain the trail and volunteer to help. This way you can express your desires and contribute to the whole mountain bike community.
Richard Russell


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## sru (Sep 26, 2005)

The poster is newb-ist.

Pretty soon, he'll be saying they should have their own schools.


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## NJMX835 (Oct 17, 2006)

Sodak had it right man, it's a rut, BFD. 

If that gets you bent out of shape you might want to take a long hard look at your priorities.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

sodak06 said:


> Ahh...
> There is no "new" here and I can understand the passion that one gets once he has taken a trail system as his own. However, it is dirt and grass man, and that is it.. 90% of the responses on this threat immediately assume that the rut was caused by some idiot noob, without really knowing the cause. It looks to me like it was a muddy / rainy day, and maybe someone did cut the corner, do you think they knew that there action would have caused a rut like that? Maybe they just messed up and went off trail, not everyone is a pro rider here. :eekster:
> 
> I understand that there is a blatant disrespect to trails in some cases, but this one does not look to be that way. It is not that hard to push the dirt and grass back into the rut and flatten it out, if it really causes you to loose sleep at night. The OP spent more time taking pictures and writing this post than it would have took to fix a rut three times a large. I am just saying that people worry about too much BS, you are suppose to be riding your bike for fun and to relax, not get fired up over a measly rut on your favorite trail..
> ...


You hit on a lot of topics in that post. First, it does look like someone did it on purpose. I believe more than 90% of the people who posted here agree. You also said it does look like they cut the corner. I really doubt someone went off the trail on accident and caused this. Yes it is dirt and grass and it won't take long to fix the problem, but that is not the point. Also, it is fairly easy to assume a newb did it because others would walk the section and if wasn't a newb then it's much worse. This does look like blatant disrespect for the trail because it had to be a very wet day and someone cut a corner. Because it was so wet they left this rut. If they had any respect after cutting the corner they would have noticed their rut and walked the rest. The OP is obviously upset with this person and posted it on this site to educate others, check for this post in the beginners forum and discuss it with other riders. Get up on the other side of the bed tomorrow.


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## wg (Dec 20, 2003)

NJMX835 said:


> Sodak had it right man, it's a rut, BFD.
> 
> If that gets you bent out of shape you might want to take a long hard look at your priorities.



Umm, the point and priorty ties to educating folks that cutting lines is bad. The next person that comes along sees the rut and may think that its OK to take that line. Its doesn't take too much to go from one "rut" to a whole new cut in the trail that will then take many hours of trail work to repair.
Next time I'm there I'll take a shot of some lines that used to be about 2' wide that are now baby stoller wide 5' and more, because some dipsticks didn't know how to turn and follow the switchback. The whole process started with a couple of riders who "straight lined" the downhill. Took about 3 months to completely F up that part of the trail.
You may want to look at your priorities of being too self centered and consider that actions do have consequences.


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## EmanResu (Mar 1, 2007)

Looks like something a motorbike would cause to me. I'd be really surprised if a push bike caused that.

This might help explain a user's choice not to navigate the usual path around the tree. And another thing, maybe it appears different in reality, but that line to me looks to be far more difficult than the usual path to ride because the depth and narrowness of the rut would likely threaten control of your steering (anyone with experience should know what I'm saying here).


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## bdamschen (Jan 4, 2006)

jibmaster said:


> After every race in the woods around where I live, almost every corner is cut short, there are new short cuts straightening out some cool little twist in the trail, trash is everywhere and all the corners have loooong skid marks going into them.
> It's all about getting from A to B as fast as possible. No style. Mt. bike racing is kinda like what ski racing used to be. A chinese downhill. No rules. No points taken away for dabbing. Hell, you don't even have to ride your bike to win a bike race. As long as your the first one to the finish line, that's what counts. It's not about the ride, it's about finishing first. I've seen the races and almost every rider will get off his/her bike and run across a technical section.
> I just don't get it. Bike racing is stupid. I'll respect bike racing when they give and take points away for style or lack thereof. No dabbing. Ride it clean or you lose.


Seems to be more the course designers bad than the racers bad. If there's a corner you're not supposed to cut, it should be taped off. As for dabbing, a good race course is one that is faster to ride clean than to dab/get off and walk. Don't hate the racers for just being out to compete.

And they do have a competition where they give and take poitns away from style and lack thereof, it's called slopestyle.


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

wg said:


> Umm, the point and priorty ties to educating folks that cutting lines is bad. The next person that comes along sees the rut and may think that its OK to take that line. Its doesn't take too much to go from one "rut" to a whole new cut in the trail that will then take many hours of trail work to repair.
> Next time I'm there I'll take a shot of some lines that used to be about 2' wide that are now baby stoller wide 5' and more, because some dipsticks didn't know how to turn and follow the switchback. The whole process started with a couple of riders who "straight lined" the downhill. Took about 3 months to completely F up that part of the trail.
> You may want to look at your priorities of being too self centered and consider that actions do have consequences.


Your original post sounded much more like b!tching and moaning about the problem rather than trying to educate others about the supposed threat that one rut causes to your favorite trail.

If you have such a problem with it, then why don't you fix it? I think fixing the rut and posting a little sign at the trailhead that says not to cut alternate lines would be far more effective than b!tching about it on the internet. Doncha think?


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*F'off*



AllKnowing said:


> Reaallly? No realllly? You folks are really outraged at somebody cutting that corner? I think who ever cut that corner could see it wasnt right how you folks are damaging that tree for your own selfish amusement. Wont be long that trees roots will be exposed. You wanna ride over trees, ride over dead ones.


you f'ing troll.


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## wg (Dec 20, 2003)

dowst said:


> Your original post sounded much more like b!tching and moaning about the problem rather than trying to educate others about the supposed threat that one rut causes to your favorite trail.
> 
> If you have such a problem with it, then why don't you fix it? I think fixing the rut and posting a little sign at the trailhead that says not to cut alternate lines would be far more effective than b!tching about it on the internet. Doncha think?


Matter of interpretation I guess...... I'm hoping maybe some folks will read this and not do it vs *****ing about my supposed *****ing. 
I often do fix things like this. 
Lets make it simple for folks..... I'll use small words....Its about more than one rut on one trail. The point is to not cut trails in the first place! :madman:
I took the picture to show what should not be done. Quite often crap like that happens, gets ignored and develops into alternate routes etc etc. 
We try to block the cuts but only to have some dipsticks go back and intentionally move branches, rocks etc to continue the use their own unauthorized trail variations.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Dude...*



wg said:


> Matter of interpretation I guess...... I'm hoping maybe some folks will read this and not do it vs *****ing about my supposed *****ing.
> I often do fix things like this.
> Lets make it simple for folks..... I'll use small words....Its about more than one rut on one trail. The point is to not cut trails in the first place! :madman:
> I took the picture to show what should not be done. Quite often crap like that happens, gets ignored and develops into alternate routes etc etc.
> We try to block the cuts but only to have some dipsticks go back and intentionally move branches, rocks etc to continue the use their own unauthorized trail variations.


... I totally agree with you. I keep seeing new cheater lines all over the place. Pishes me off. The worst was at Tamarancho. Some elves helped me stack a buttload of rocks and branches over one nasty cheater line. The trail crew later came through and fully burried the cheater line in dirt and big boulders. God bless those trail crews!

Yeah, notice how steep the slope is? That cheater line is going to pool water, turn to mush with and saturate the ground underneath it and probalby cause the whole corner to wash out if left alone.

I don't see your post and beotching. I see it as a PSA.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

That doesn't look like an efficient place to cut. I'd imagine their would be less precarious places to do it. I don't know, I can't imagine too many bikers seeing that and thinking, sweet, shortcut! Just throw some sticks over it and move on.


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## bailout (Mar 2, 2005)

*Keep singletrack single!*

I'm with WG on this one. I am very familiar with that park and that section of trail in the picture. It's really easier to ride it downhill and quite difficult to ride it uphill. I almost made it up that thing last Sat but stalled after running into the small root behind wg's bike in the picture. I got both wheels up and over the most difficult part though, it was the closest that I came to cleaning it since I started riding there in 01. It felt good to almost clear it. I usually just walk it.

I love that park and ride there a lot. It's uniquely technical and scenic. Riding there has taught me to ride with respect. I like technical challenges and refuse to shortcut difficult sections if I can't ride it. There's no shame in walking, that's what I do until I eventually learn how to clean sections that I used to consider "unridable". It took a lot for mountainbikers to finally have access to that park. It gets a lot of bike use as well. Nowadays, there are a myriad of cheater lines that bypass the rough and difficult sections. I find it ironic that mtbikers from all around the country clamor for more narrow singletrack and then stuff like trail widening and bypassing by mtbikers happens. It seems like there's a new cheater line everytime I go there (and I go there a lot). In some cases, the environmental impact might be nil but in many cases, erosion becomes a big problem. Unfortunately, people who do these things probably don't give a damn about the impact or simply don't know why they should. Mountainbiking has gone mainstream and it is inevitable that some of our fellow mountainbikers will not have the same respect for the trails/parks.

I thought this thread was gonna end up as one of those "preaching to the choir" threads. Obviously I am wrong. As someone said, don't lose sleep over it wg (I'm sure you won't ). *Nobody* gets the picture *everytime*. If that was not the case, this world wouldn't be as facked up as it is.

Anyway, I'll be riding there again this coming weekend and will make sure that the said cheater line is blocked.


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

NJMX835 said:


> Sodak had it right man, it's a rut, BFD.
> 
> If that gets you bent out of shape you might want to take a long hard look at your priorities.


You and Sodak are way off base. Trail braiding and sally lines suck. The snowmobilers around here have signs that say "Stay on trail or stay home". Seems appropriate here.


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

We call them 'spodes' where I ride, and what they don't know about can't hurt them. :thumbsup: 

Scorpionwoman - your name should be Pollyanna. An entry fee is the only thing one needs to claim the title: racer.


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## JIMBOLAYA (Jun 13, 2007)

Not to stir the pot too much, but we don't know what happened. 
The rider could have been in a pack and gone off trail to avoid a stopped or crashed rider at the tree.
It could have been for safety reasons.
OR
the rider doesn't know or respect the rules of the trail. 
I guess that why IMBA has the bike patrol program to keep riders informed of the rules.
http://www.imba.com/nmbp/

Thanks for posting the topic. 
It's a good reminder that riding like a jacka$$ make trail maintanence more difficult.
-j


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

*Had to do it.... sorry...*

Man-o-man, this thread is still living. I have learned that this type of thing really gets under peoples skin. What happens when something truly tragic happens to you guys? You must go off the deep end, whew&#8230; sorry for ya.

The only person who is entitled to be pissed at this "atrocity" or "accident" is Mother Nature herself. She is most likely not happy with the riders of the trail using the tree as a feature either, in fact I am sure that the simple fact of cutting a trail through the natural ecosystem of the area made her really happy. sniff..snif&#8230;. 

C'mon people&#8230;.. 
Reading posts like this makes me happy. It allows me to see that I have got it good, no stress, no BS, and best of all, my own trail system&#8230;&#8230;(with cheater lines)&#8230;.:thumbsup:


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

bobsyouruncle said:


> WG is right. The ongoing problem with no-skill pansies at Rockville sucks. All you can do is block the pansy line over and over and over again.
> 
> Unfortunately, no matter how many times you log/rock in pu$$y line, pansies will clear the line out and then unsuspecting folks will be drawn to that cheater line, and away from the real line (see attachment)
> 
> *What I don't understand is the "It took a lot for mountainbikers to finally have access to that park" business from someone who only started riding there in '01.* Your claim makes no sense to folks who have been riding there since waaaaaay before '01.


Man I thought I was done with this thread....But then you posted this picture...

What is so wrong with that?? It looks to me like a decent "option" rather than taking the sketch part to the right. That right there is a bad thing?? We all want to ride our bikes for fun and have fun doing so, so why force people to take the hard way. Is that not how people end up getting hurt, and THEN getting the bike trail, park, resort shut down??  Everytime I build a stunt, feature, anything that a newb can not do, I always make a cheater line for them. Hell even for me sometimes, when I am bombing the run to get speed to launch a gap, and I realize I do not have the right speed I can take the side route and continue on. It is a better option than trying to completely stop and go around or hit it at the wrong speed. This all just doesn't make much sense to me. The first picture actually looked worse then this one.


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## sru (Sep 26, 2005)

*So have you decided.....*

who did this??

Was it the pansies or newbs??

Maybe you should cut the tree down to block the guilty parties (no skill pansies, newbies et al) pu$$ie line.

That'l teach 'em. You'll need two guys though because you've tried before, by yourself I assume, and those damn no skill pansies just keep moving your rocks and logs.

This thread is getting more entertaining by the minute.


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

bobsyouruncle said:


> The concepts that you're struggling with are "sustainability" and "erosion," among others.
> 
> You forgot the best option for folks who are unable to ride a given line/trail feature:
> 
> ...


IS the sustainability of the trail really compromised by the new "cheater line"? It looks to me as if the original line has a little erosion issue itself. But I am not going to argue this point. All of a sudden the thread is filled with environmentalists and I am not getting into that.

I see the folks you call "lazy" as more "less-skilled" or "pain conscious".

All I know is that I would rather ride a trail with a group of friends and be confident that everyone will make it through regardless of their skill, from monster trucker to newb.. This is how commodore is developed on the trail. If you only take the pros and the "skilled-riders" out with you all the time, then what fun is it. Of course they push you to be a better rider, but what about the guy you were when you first started. One of my favorite parts of riding is taking the newb out and watching him/her navigate the trails and improve their skills. In the situation in your picture, that might be too much for someone, so why not allow them an easy way around to at least scope the feature before hitting it a speed? The game is more fun when everyone can play. There are just too many riders out there that over-rate themselves too damn much.


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## NoManerz (Feb 10, 2006)

jeffscott said:


> No it isn't


Is that right? You should see what the rangers did to another local trail with a smallish feature on it in st. :eekster:


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

bobsyouruncle said:


> You forgot the best option for folks who are unable to ride a given line/trail feature:
> 
> *Walk it.*


Are you crazy? It's much better to cut down trees and churn up dirt and rocks instead.

......stupid spodes.......


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## AllKnowing (Nov 5, 2007)

What a bunch of mountain bike wackos, i could care less if someone cuts a corner.


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

AllKnowing said:


> What a bunch mountain bike wackos, i could care less if someone cuts a corner.


Hmmmm.... Thats probably because you've only been riding for 2 years, and have had little involvement in trail development or access issues, have not seen your favorite trails banned for mtn bikers, have not seen what years of erosion can do to a trail, have not spent any time building trails and sweet lines to see asshats braid the trails... I'll check back with you in 10 years.

In fact - IT WAS PROBABLY YOU THAT DID IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## wg (Dec 20, 2003)

sodak06 said:


> What is so wrong with that?? It looks to me like a decent "option" rather than taking the sketch part to the right. That right there is a bad thing?? .


In this case it is a bad thing. To get to that point in the trail takes a bit more than a basic bike skills. Its a very tight left switchback just above the rock. This "decent option" is going to become a rutted mess with brake draggers, especially with the wetter weather change. The original trail has withstood years of riders because its rock and logs and being very well built. That "option" is a straight line into a bush with a tight 90 degree right turn instead of the curving approach of the original.
That particular cheater line appeared this year. I started riding in this park about 9 years ago by following more advanced riders. That helped teach me what lines to look at and how to look at what potential lines exist. Also how to dab, crash and clean many sections. 
I've lead many rides for MTBR gatherings at Rockville. I think everyone has had fun there, regardless of ability. I take my 9yo kid there. I too enjoy seeing people "get it". But.. if things are going to be challenging, the folks are warned about whats coming and to check it out. Sometimes they walk, sometimes they get coached through. Part of the group ride experience. 
The original post trail..... that's one of the older trails in the park. It drains really well and holds up to traffic really well. The tree in the picture has been a "feature" for as long as I've been riding there.

I'm curious about all the people who are taking "issue" with this topic. Why defend trail destruction and unauthorized rerouting? What makes it "OK" to assume that tearing new lines is acceptable?


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

wg said:


> I'm curious about all the people who are taking "issue" with this topic. Why defend trail destruction and unauthorized rerouting? What makes it "OK" to assume that tearing new lines is acceptable?


The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
- Wayne Dyer


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## NJMX835 (Oct 17, 2006)

The amount of hand wringing going on in this thread is priceless...


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## sru (Sep 26, 2005)

> "I'm curious about all the people who are taking "issue" with this topic. Why defend trail destruction and unauthorized rerouting? What makes it "OK" to assume that tearing new lines is acceptable?"


I'm not defending trail destruction. I'm making fun of the name calling and "rider profiling" (for lack of a better term) that is going on in this thread.

Judging by the first picture, That was not done by a bicycle. I don't know anyone who can generate enough torque through the pedals to dig a small trench through turf and dirt. It looks like the bike had 3 inch tires on it.

I'll be the first to admit that I've cut a corner to save me $5,000.00 in dental work and lots of pain, and I'll do it again if I have to. I don't make a habit of it, but #$% happens, and I'll "braid" a trail to save my skin.


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## Gremlin325 (Dec 11, 2007)

sodak06 said:


> IS the sustainability of the trail really compromised by the new "cheater line"? It looks to me as if the original line has a little erosion issue itself. But I am not going to argue this point. All of a sudden the thread is filled with environmentalists and I am not getting into that.
> 
> I see the folks you call "lazy" as more "less-skilled" or "pain conscious".
> 
> All I know is that I would rather ride a trail with a group of friends and be confident that everyone will make it through regardless of their skill, from monster trucker to newb.. This is how commodore is developed on the trail. If you only take the pros and the "skilled-riders" out with you all the time, then what fun is it. Of course they push you to be a better rider, but what about the guy you were when you first started. One of my favorite parts of riding is taking the newb out and watching him/her navigate the trails and improve their skills. In the situation in your picture, that might be too much for someone, so why not allow them an easy way around to at least scope the feature before hitting it a speed? The game is more fun when everyone can play. There are just too many riders out there that over-rate themselves too damn much.


WOW - Just got done reading this. I'm with the Soda K guy - relaxe. Pussie trails? Everyone starts somewhere. Someone brings some friends out on the trail to get them up to speed and have some fun and they are pussies because they don't want to hit down a trail with 8 rail road ties? Everyone - take a deep breath. Now I better understand the mentality of those of you who also don't smile or nod at a fellow mountain biker on the trail -regardless of bike specs or riding prowess.


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## Zen_Turtle (Sep 22, 2005)

This is very simple. Put a landmine on the path that cuts the corner. If he/she'll do it again you'll find out...   :lol:


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

sodak06 said:


> Man-o-man, this thread is still living. I have learned that this type of thing really gets under peoples skin. What happens when something truly tragic happens to you guys? You must go off the deep end, whew&#8230; sorry for ya.
> 
> The only person who is entitled to be pissed at this "atrocity" or "accident" is Mother Nature herself. She is most likely not happy with the riders of the trail using the tree as a feature either, in fact I am sure that the simple fact of cutting a trail through the natural ecosystem of the area made her really happy. sniff..snif&#8230;.
> 
> ...


You have been hanging out with AllKNowing for far too long. You're just here playing stupid to push someone's button and if you're hopefully you will become educated on this topic.


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

Zen_Turtle said:


> This is very simple. Put a landmine on the path that cuts the corner. If he/she'll do it again you'll find out...   :lol:


Either that or stake that corner out by hiding up in the tree and when you see someone come to cut the corner jump down on them and beat the living sh*t out of them.

Ambushing is where its at.

Pungee sticks work too.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 23, 2003)

sodak06 said:


> This is how commodore is developed on the trail.


What does a naval officer have to do with this topic? Or were you talking about the computer?

Or maybe you were trying to say camaraderie??

Buy a freakin' clue, why don't ya.rft:


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## Shwaa (Jan 13, 2004)

Gremlin325 said:


> WOW - Just got done reading this. I'm with the Soda K guy - relaxe. Pussie trails? Everyone starts somewhere. Someone brings some friends out on the trail to get them up to speed and have some fun and they are pussies because they don't want to hit down a trail with 8 rail road ties? Everyone - take a deep breath. Now I better understand the mentality of those of you who also don't smile or nod at a fellow mountain biker on the trail -regardless of bike specs or riding prowess.


Ok, so with your logic if you can't ride a certain section of a trail, grab a shovel and re-route it to your liking?

This thread is so ridiculous, you guys are missing the point. You don't have to be able to ride EVERY SINGLE TRAIL you encounter. If a section is too difficult, WALK IT. Plain and simple. Don't take it upon yourselves to "fix" it.

Also, if you bring beginners to a place like this, they should be expected to walk alot of the sections. If that ruins the fun for you, take them to the boardwalk along the beach, or the "easy trails"


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## HarryCallahan (Nov 2, 2004)

Just commenting on the 2nd photo, "ride arounds" can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the park, land manager, and local politics. If that seems subjective, that's because it is.

Now, personally, I've never been to Rockville, so I will defer to those guys who ride there a lot. If ride arounds cause problems with park managers and users, then, folks should walk the sections they aren't comfortable doing.


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## pspwesty (Feb 27, 2006)

My local parks managers (the county parks dept) allow no "ride arounds". As an active member of the local MTB club I take pride in the trails that we develop and maintain in these parks. I participated in one building session of a more advanced trail in which two natural rock gardens were used as features. We used rock and dirt fill to create "ridable" lines. I have yet to clear this section, falling many times, with the scars to prove. Now, unless I am with others who can carry my broken body out, and even sometimes then, I will get off the bike and walk. My pride is not hurt. And neither is my body. It really is something more people should learn to do. Take into consideration those that have built the trail, why they may have done it that way, and respect (a big word I know) their trail.


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

I've decided to bring my Sharpie to the next art show I attend.

(.....stupid spodes...... )


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## norton55 (Oct 5, 2005)

i got to back my pal wg. this is why we loose trial access! :nono:


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

I race and I can say that in EVERY SINGLE RACE, there is ALWAYS someone who does this...always...!!!! The trail ends up becoming much more wider than what it previously was and it just ruins it. So now from recommendations of all, we have enforced this using various methods and techniques.

Sorry, but I very much dislike it and there really is no excuse other than almost crashing and trying to stay on. But that trail in the pic looks VERY well used indeed.



scorpionwoman said:


> It is possible that it was accidental--ran off the trail and kept rolling as best they could to keep from falling over.
> 
> Or maybe that's just the Pollyanna in me...
> 
> ...


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## AllKnowing (Nov 5, 2007)

I think anything less than providing a option for riders to bypass a difficult obstacle is uncivilized and the misleading terminology that this forum accepts as gospel is right up there with the techniques used by FOX news, for example, cheater lines? Only person being cheated by cheater lines is the E.R. doctors income, lets call it ride arounds from now on. Trail destruction? Your lil trail obstacle got destroyed by someone who didnt even ride on it? Lets call it controversial trail enhancement. I think alot of you guys get your thrills by watching the noobs get roughed up by a obstacle they arent ready for, or watching them jump off their and walk a obstacle you just rode through, oh you guys are so superior until i blow in on my freshly tuned Huffy "Huffy adds to the humiliation factor" and show you how the big boys ride. Since im such a nice guy, in the event i decide to school you i will bring some training wheels so you can ride your bike back to your car. hehe yeah baby!!


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## KONA_in_SB (May 20, 2004)

I have to chime in on this one. The first picture does NOT look like a cheater line to me. That trail looks ridiculously smooth. That alternate line looks much more difficult to ride. 
The OP made his claim of a newbie intentionally taking that line because they couldn't ride the trail based on absolutely no facts. It could be that, or it could be some one out of control, or whatever. 

I am not for cutting new lines or cutting corners on trails but to those whose say that they should ride the trails as they are w/o removing the obstacles or modifiying the trail, give me a break.  What do you think trail maintenance is all about. 
First off, by cutting the trail in the first place you have done more damage and removed more obstacles than one cut corner can do. Are you going to argue that the people who made the trails are pansie newbies because they couldn't ride the terrain as it was? Secondly, if you are dumb enough to think a trail is a static and a constant thing then you need to educate yourself. what if a tree falls across the trail. What do you do? You either cut the tree out of the way (i.e. remove an obstacle) or piles stick,rocks, or dirt up to make a ramp up and down the tree (i.e. modified the trail), or reroute the trial. Very few people would argue to keep a large tree trunk strung across a trail and say "well if you can't ride over it you're a pvssy and need more skill". That is plain retarded. What if their are heavy rains and the trail washes out? Do you tell people to walk the section? No, you fix it. 

Again, if the rider cut this corner intentionally that is messed up, it just appears to me that wasn't the case. But ride-arounds on arbitrary obstacles are not a bad things because, well...they are arbitrary, fun but arbitrary.

P.S. Neither one of the of the sections of trails in question here look like they need a ride around to me.


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## KONA_in_SB (May 20, 2004)

Mrwhlr said:


> I've decided to bring my Sharpie to the next art show I attend.
> 
> (.....stupid spodes...... )


Don't put your art in public view if you can't take the criticism. If that line was intentional it still doesn't take anything at all away from or damage the original trail. But if it was intentional the person who did it was an @sshat, just like the people who disagree with my art.


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## bailout (Mar 2, 2005)

bobsyouruncle said:


> *What I don't understand is the "It took a lot for mountainbikers to finally have access to that park" business from someone who only started riding there in '01.* Your claim makes no sense to folks who have been riding there since waaaaaay before '01.


Huh??? Two unrelated things, those statements that you quoted me saying. They might be juxtaposed in my original post but I never meant to sound like I "own" the park or something obviously ridiculous like that. Arrgghh! I should try to avoid participating in this type of discourse (internet + anonymity). Even my most benign and well-meaning statements get misinterpreted and turn into something ugly. Sorry about the confusion.

I was just tring to point out that it took a lot of effort (I got that directly rom Mr. Tilley and Silva during one of my chats with them on trailwork days there) to open the park to bikers and that that should not be squandered. Just trying to state the obvious I guess, that we should ride with more respect for the land. I think I still have the right to point that out even if I was never there when they were fighting for access, right? Right?

Yes, I'm not a "rockville veteran" and never meant to make my post sound that I am. I don't care if you or anyone has been riding there and helping the trail crew waaaaaay before I was born! I do believe that riding there at least once a month since 01 qualifies as "riding there a lot". I was merely trying to let everyone know that I know the place well and have seen all the changes (trail braiding, etc.) firsthand.

Rant over. Peace out and move on... sheesh.


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## bailout (Mar 2, 2005)

bobsyouruncle said:


> It sounds like you misunderstood/misinterpreted something that you heard.
> 
> The park has always been open to mountain bikers. It didn't take "a lot of effort to open the park to bikers," as you mistakenly claimed.


What? Man, why you gotta burst my bubble like that ? I thought I was getting it straight from the source

Anyway, whatever. Let's kill this thread. Sodac and Allknowing probably don't even ride at Rocky.


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

This thread makes it painfully obvious who has and has not been volunteering on trail work days.


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

I guess it's hard for me to get mad at this because I don't know who really did this. Looks pretty deliberate and it definitely wasn't a bike off path. Also wasn't a dirt bike because they would have torn up the original path in the process.

If I were riding around and saw this I would honestly think my local trail maintenance group would be setting up a new section. I can't really see why any noob wouldn't be able to ride the original path. It would almost seem like an attempt to save that tree which is visibly taking a beating. 

Maybe grab some logs and throw them in the way next time just in case.

Have you checked with local trail builders including hikers, conservationists, etc.?


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## jaeman (Dec 16, 2007)

washedup said:


> This thread makes it painfully obvious who has and has not been volunteering on trail work days.


:thumbsup: Though I know nothing about trail building... yet! :madman: 
Going a little off topic, I was surprised this thread hit the three pages mark.


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## Jwiffle (Jan 26, 2004)

sodak06 said:


> Man I thought I was done with this thread....But then you posted this picture...
> 
> What is so wrong with that?? It looks to me like a decent "option" rather than taking the sketch part to the right. That right there is a bad thing?? We all want to ride our bikes for fun and have fun doing so, so why force people to take the hard way. Is that not how people end up getting hurt, and THEN getting the bike trail, park, resort shut down??  Everytime I build a stunt, feature, anything that a newb can not do, I always make a cheater line for them. Hell even for me sometimes, when I am bombing the run to get speed to launch a gap, and I realize I do not have the right speed I can take the side route and continue on. It is a better option than trying to completely stop and go around or hit it at the wrong speed. This all just doesn't make much sense to me. The first picture actually looked worse then this one.


Sodak, you are correct that "sissy lines" must often be installed on a trail to go around some of the more difficult features. Especially if there is a real possibility of severe injury, i.e., a 6 foot drop over a 5 foot gap in the middle of the trail. But not every single obstacle or challenging section must always have an optional line--otherwise we will have to put lines around every 4" log (and yes, I've led many newbies that have trouble with even such a small obstacle). Also, it depends on the trail--not every single trail needs to be accessible and rideable by a newbie. Take newbie friends to the beginner trails, experienced friends to the expert trails.

But even when an optional line is warranted, how it is done makes a huge difference. One should not just make a reroute on their own, assuming everyone else will like it--unless, of course, it is your own personal trail. If you believe a shortcut at a spot is a worthwhile option, volunteer at a trail maintenance day and get it approved. And even if it is a new, unexpected obstacle, thought must be taken before just removing it. Example: a tree falls over the beginner trail, easily 18" in diameter, but no branches. Are there chainring marks? Yes, then apparently some people are comfortable with at least trying it. But, it is on the beginner trail and most are having to walk over it, which makes removing it or routing around it a pretty good idea. However, instead of immediately taking it all out, is the trail already wide enough at this spot to free half the trail so that some can still try going over the log?

Also, how a re-route is done makes a big difference. Care should always be taken that the reroute won't negatively affect the trail or area. In both these pictures, this was not done. Erosion will quickly cause problems with either cheater line. And it is particularly bad in the second example when so much work was apparently done originally to keep erosion problems to a minimum.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Allknowing...seemingly infamous name there...you must, in fact...[Know All], yet...I would proudly dissagree with many aspects to your misguided and teetering attempts at being ponderously inteellectualllll.

Sorry, but I have simply seen trails totally naffed by expert riders as well as noobs. I point the finger at ignorance and not just skill level. And YES, my lil trail was destroyed...we have a kind of trail ethos that guides our actions and maintains our land and the balance between we who use it aggressively and what mother nature has living in it. Not to sound too green here however, having chicken trails, politicaly correct bypasses, technically adversive sidelines, misleading-uncivilized and difficult obstacls, cheater lines...or to put it in such a nifty new term: Ride arounds, that are not part of the general trail can be fun when its not a sanctioned trail, or within protected or sensative lands. But in a race, I have seen chaps completely chuck right through the corner in order to miss something that was technically difficult and out right cheat. But noobs...lol, noobs should not even BE on that kind of trail yet...and if so , a little trail education and respect go a long way to trail nirvana.:thumbsup:

blah blah... 



AllKnowing said:


> I think anything less than providing a option for riders to bypass a difficult obstacle is uncivilized and the misleading terminology that this forum accepts as gospel is right up there with the techniques used by FOX news, for example, cheater lines? Only person being cheated by cheater lines is the E.R. doctors income, lets call it ride arounds from now on. Trail destruction? Your lil trail obstacle got destroyed by someone who didnt even ride on it? Lets call it controversial trail enhancement. I think alot of you guys get your thrills by watching the noobs get roughed up by a obstacle they arent ready for, or watching them jump off their and walk a obstacle you just rode through, oh you guys are so superior until i blow in on my freshly tuned Huffy "Huffy adds to the humiliation factor" and show you how the big boys ride. Since im such a nice guy, in the event i decide to school you i will bring some training wheels so you can ride your bike back to your car. hehe yeah baby!!


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

KONA_in_SB said:


> Don't put your art in public view if you can't take the criticism. If that line was intentional it still doesn't take anything at all away from or damage the original trail. But if it was intentional the person who did it was an @sshat, just like the people who disagree with my art.


*WHOOSH!* (went right over your head)

You better make sure everyone has a mustache in your art, or _I_ will - and by your thinking, it's fine if I do.

(.....stupid spodes...... )


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Jwiffle said:


> Sodak, you are correct that "sissy lines" must often be installed on a trail to go around some of the more difficult features. Especially if there is a real possibility of severe injury, i.e., a 6 foot drop over a 5 foot gap in the middle of the trail. But not every single obstacle or challenging section must always have an optional line--otherwise we will have to put lines around every 4" log (and yes, I've led many newbies that have trouble with even such a small obstacle). Also, it depends on the trail--not every single trail needs to be accessible and rideable by a newbie. Take newbie friends to the beginner trails, experienced friends to the expert trails.
> 
> But even when an optional line is warranted, how it is done makes a huge difference. One should not just make a reroute on their own, assuming everyone else will like it--unless, of course, it is your own personal trail. If you believe a shortcut at a spot is a worthwhile option, volunteer at a trail maintenance day and get it approved. And even if it is a new, unexpected obstacle, thought must be taken before just removing it. Example: a tree falls over the beginner trail, easily 18" in diameter, but no branches. Are there chainring marks? Yes, then apparently some people are comfortable with at least trying it. But, it is on the beginner trail and most are having to walk over it, which makes removing it or routing around it a pretty good idea. However, instead of immediately taking it all out, is the trail already wide enough at this spot to free half the trail so that some can still try going over the log?
> 
> Also, how a re-route is done makes a big difference. Care should always be taken that the reroute won't negatively affect the trail or area. In both these pictures, this was not done. Erosion will quickly cause problems with either cheater line. And it is particularly bad in the second example when so much work was apparently done originally to keep erosion problems to a minimum.


I can agree with what you said. There are times when it is warranted and times when obviously it is not.

The whole argument over trail braiding and cheater-lines gets a little out of hand at times. Maybe it is just my personality, but I don't see the big deal in it at all. It does not bother me that someone made an easier and possibly safer way around an "obstacle or feature". I guess I am just happy to see other people off the couch and out of the house and doing something. It is the little nit-picky things like this that can give newcomers the wrong impression of the MTB community. I try to encourage riding to anyone I meet or see, but I do not encourage a new guy to tackle something they are not 100% comfortable with. The small amount of pride they might gain is not with ruining a whole day riding for an avoidable injury. Eventually they will have the confidence to hit it, but until then let them hone their skills on optional routes. The size of the obstacle and difficulty is always going to be in question. For some a 6" log might be just a bunny hop, to others it might be a mountain. I guess I figure if it is a public trail, then who has the right to say the trail can't be altered?

I understand that making or allowing optional lines is not a "standard" practice. This is something that goes on a trail by trail basis, and has alot to do with the mentality of the local riders. Some locals think their sh*t don't stink, and won't give a new guy the time of day. Others, well they are like the locals in my area, just down to earth riders who ride for the fun of it, not the sport or competitive aspect of it. So, to each their own,,..


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

Being a Rockville semi-regular, I know that section well, and it can be tricky, but in the long run that tree would take a greater beating from having the ground beneath it cut away. I guess the user fees rolleyes: ) for the park can go toward fixing this kind of stuff. 

Califonia is hot bed of trail controversy and things such as this just make it tougher for cyclists to get trail access. However, Rockville seems to be a rare gem where all users get along without much conflict.


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## wg (Dec 20, 2003)

Hey you're moving though. Ya'll come back now and visit us ya hear?
Lets not even get into where those supposed "user fees" are going..... 

I like Sim2u's comment "I point the finger at ignorance and not just skill level". This is about ignorance and education not necessisarily how new someone is to MTB. Missing a turn, crashing off the trail. That happens. Its the intentional, non-sanctioned lines that are the problem.
On a broader scale this same topic applies to most areas of the country. There was a huge thread about this sort of thing in Fruita? a year or so ago. Where people cut the desert single track trails and leave permanent scars. I'm not remembering the exact phrase for the crust that is damaged (someone from that area can reeducate me) or better, post the link.

Someone else mentioned a comment that I knew would show up. To paraphrase... if its public land its OK to change things because...I'm part of the public. 
It doesn't work that way. 
If everyone did their own thing then we'd have crap vs a trail system designed and supported by quite a few mountain bikes and hikers. This park has almost no conflict between trail users. Yet. 
Joggers, hikers, dog walkers, bikers. Never had a conflict with any of them. Everyone seems to get that its a multi-use system.
The problem I'm seeing now is that most of the trail damage is being caused by mountain bikers tearing their own trails and lines. If complaints and issues start surfacing, we'll loose. The original picture is on the Tilley Trail. Dan Tilley donated most of the land that makes up this park and he's been a great advocate of keeping the place open for MTB. He's a hiker.
Lets not F up our trails for the sake of personal gratification. When last there I came up on the local ranger leading a hike with a family. She and I have chatted quite often and know each other. She asked me if I had just ridden up the closed trail. No, I took the reroute. Apparently quite a few riders are just riding right on over the closed trails that have been covered with branches, etc to try to eliminate a bad section. Looking back on that section we only saw tire tracks going onto the closed section. No foot prints.
Hmmmm....


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*This is simple to me....*

and I'm not sure why people take umbrage with your post.

The people who take umbrage have no experience with Trail Stewardship. Otherwise they would understand the intent of your OP.

To quote a guy who doesn't come here that often, the irony of people posting to complain about your post is dripping.

For those who don't understand:

If wg's post reached just one person who may be ignorant of the harm in their actions, then it was a great post.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

bailout said:


> What? Man, why you gotta burst my bubble like that ? I thought I was getting it straight from the source
> 
> Anyway, whatever. Let's kill this thread. Sodac and Allknowing probably don't even ride at Rocky.


I would bet that's a true statement. Allknowing is mtbr's biggest troll who has nothing better to do than push or attempt to push the user's buttons and Sodac is attempting to do the same.



washedup said:


> This thread makes it painfully obvious who has and has not been volunteering on trail work days.


Vouch


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## washedup (Jan 2, 2006)

wg said:


> Hey you're moving though. Ya'll come back now and visit us ya hear?
> Lets not even get into where those supposed "user fees" are going.....
> 
> On a broader scale this same topic applies to most areas of the country. There was a huge thread about this sort of thing in Fruita? a year or so ago. Where people cut the desert single track trails and leave permanent scars. I'm not remembering the exact phrase for the crust that is damaged (someone from that area can reeducate me) or better, post the link.


Cryptobiotic soil


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

*Ken I totally agree&#8230;*



Ken in KC said:


> and I'm not sure why people take umbrage with your post.
> 
> The people who take umbrage have no experience with Trail Stewardship. Otherwise they would understand the intent of your OP.
> 
> ...


ditto for me. Building and maintaining a trail is no different than building and maintaining your bike or your house. Pride in ownership is just that: pride.

People that see this as a bad thing probably have poorly maintained bikes, poorly maintained homes and look to litigation when they get hurt because of their poorly maintained property. That attitude always leads to the concept of the tragedy of the commons, a descriptor of when people with no stewardship for a group possession overuse it to each individuals maximum benefit without regard for the sustainability of the possession or the other users benefits and that never ends well.


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## McLovin (Sep 7, 2007)

WG:

I agree with you completely. This is the stuff that gets mountain bikers demonized by land managers and other trail users. _The trails that are the most fun, are planned and designed with input by mountain bikers. Mountain bikers only get to have input when the other users and land managers respect them._ I know, I know... I just blew your mind.

This thread just reiterates why I hate people so much. All people... No offense to any people who may be reading this.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

wg said:


> From the Tilley trail in Rockville, CA. today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's horrible. Where is the will to fight with the obstacle until you get over it? Lazy bastard :madmax:

For sure, one of the reasons some people hate us ...


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

Jwiffle said:


> Sodak, you are correct that "sissy lines" must often be installed on a trail to go around some of the more difficult features. Especially if there is a real possibility of severe injury, i.e., a 6 foot drop over a 5 foot gap in the middle of the trail. But not every single obstacle or challenging section must always have an optional line--otherwise we will have to put lines around every 4" log (and yes, I've led many newbies that have trouble with even such a small obstacle). Also, it depends on the trail--not every single trail needs to be accessible and rideable by a newbie. Take newbie friends to the beginner trails, experienced friends to the expert trails.
> 
> But even when an optional line is warranted, how it is done makes a huge difference. One should not just make a reroute on their own, assuming everyone else will like it--unless, of course, it is your own personal trail. If you believe a shortcut at a spot is a worthwhile option, volunteer at a trail maintenance day and get it approved. And even if it is a new, unexpected obstacle, thought must be taken before just removing it. Example: a tree falls over the beginner trail, easily 18" in diameter, but no branches. Are there chainring marks? Yes, then apparently some people are comfortable with at least trying it. But, it is on the beginner trail and most are having to walk over it, which makes removing it or routing around it a pretty good idea. However, instead of immediately taking it all out, is the trail already wide enough at this spot to free half the trail so that some can still try going over the log?
> 
> Also, how a re-route is done makes a big difference. Care should always be taken that the reroute won't negatively affect the trail or area. In both these pictures, this was not done. Erosion will quickly cause problems with either cheater line. And it is particularly bad in the second example when so much work was apparently done originally to keep erosion problems to a minimum.


Why we don't have sissy lines in Bidwell Park?:skep:


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## yater (Nov 3, 2006)

jaeman said:


> :thumbsup: Though I know nothing about trail building... yet! :madman:
> Going a little off topic, I was surprised this thread hit the three pages mark.


It's worth mentioning that every racer does mandatory paydirt hours for series points. This accounts for thousands of man-hours of trail work.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Huh?*



yater said:


> It's worth mentioning that every racer does mandatory paydirt hours for series points. This accounts for thousands of man-hours of trail work.


This is one of the most incorrect statements I've seen here in a while.

_*Every*_ racer does not perform mandatory paydirt hours.

Some race series offer series points for _*volunteering*_ time toward trail work. 
Some race series may require trail work time as part of the series.
Some race series don't have any such requirement.


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## yater (Nov 3, 2006)

Ken in KC said:


> This is one of the most incorrect statements I've seen here in a while.
> 
> _*Every*_ racer does not perform mandatory paydirt hours.
> 
> ...


Around here, we do paydirt...sucks for you I guess


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Really?*



yater said:


> Around here, we do paydirt...sucks for you I guess


Is that through DORBA? I didn't realize that DORBA encompassed every racer? I didn't realize it was required. Please understand, I think Paydirt being mandatory is really cool.

But that's very different from your original statement that every racers is required to participate in paydirt.


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## KONA_in_SB (May 20, 2004)

Mrwhlr said:


> *WHOOSH!* (went right over your head)
> 
> You better make sure everyone has a mustache in your art, or _I_ will - and by your thinking, it's fine if I do.
> 
> (.....stupid spodes...... )


No no. I knew exactly what you meant but i guess my point went over your head. The original trail was not damaged in any way, shape or form. It can still be ridden exactly as the it was before. If you draw on artwork with a sharpie you are probably ruining it. If you get a peice of paper and draw a critism of the artwork and post it next to the original piece you have not harmed the original piece. That is more the case here. See the difference?


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Ironically this is funny, nevertheless as much as I can agree with your intentions, people are people and it takes a degree of psych to get into their take on things...we as you may know, we are emotionally immature, regardless of age even at the best of times.

But I am at a loss as to "Umbrage"...I can assume its meaning but would prefere to play the ingorant here and be a little educated myself...thanks.

:thumbsup:



Ken in KC said:


> and I'm not sure why people take umbrage with your post.
> 
> The people who take umbrage have no experience with Trail Stewardship. Otherwise they would understand the intent of your OP.
> 
> ...


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

+1:thumbsup:



Rod said:


> I would bet that's a true statement. Allknowing is mtbr's biggest troll who has nothing better to do than push or attempt to push the user's buttons and Sodac is attempting to do the same.
> 
> Vouch


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Triple post...SORRY...:madman:

But had to say this was funny and interesting.



McLovin said:


> WG:
> 
> Mountain bikers only get to have input when the other users and land managers respect them.[/I] I know, I know... I just blew your mind.
> 
> This thread just reiterates why I hate people so much. All people... No offense to any people who may be reading this.


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## Mrwhlr (Sep 16, 2006)

KONA_in_SB said:


> No no. I knew exactly what you meant but i guess my point went over your head. The original trail was not damaged in any way, shape or form. It can still be ridden exactly as the it was before. If you draw on artwork with a sharpie you are probably ruining it. *If you get a peice of paper and draw a critism of the artwork and post it next to the original piece you have not harmed the original piece.* That is more the case here. See the difference?


Oh that's *exactly* what I was going for - please accept my humble apologies. 

JHFC!



(stopping before I get banned)


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## speedmetal (Feb 28, 2007)

What it all boils down to is RESPECT. Respect for the land,the work of others,your own. Pride? When you ride a bike, pride goes out of the window.Don't be afraid to dismount and walk if a section of trail is too hard.
"IF YOU"RE NOT WALKING,YOU"RE NOT MOUNTAIN BIKING!"


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Look it up....*



Sim2u said:


> Ironically this is funny, nevertheless as much as I can agree with your intentions, people are people and it takes a degree of psych to get into their take on things...we as you may know, we are emotionally immature, regardless of age even at the best of times.
> 
> But I am at a loss as to "Umbrage"...I can assume its meaning but would prefere to play the ingorant here and be a little educated myself...thanks.
> 
> :thumbsup:


That's what my Mom told me when I asked what something meant. I'll save you the trouble of grabbing a dictionary:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/umbrage


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

:thumbsup:


fishbum said:


> The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
> - Wayne Dyer


Nice to see you on this one F.B.:thumbsup:

*Empty heads do make funny sounds.*


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

sodak06 said:


> :smallviolin: :smallviolin: :smallviolin:
> 
> Man,.... there are a lot more important things to stress over. Unless it is your trail on your property, get over it man.... I can't believe that you found it so appauling that you actually stopped your epic ride to take a picture of it..... Bet you thought about your MTBR post the whole ride back home.... huh?


Hey, guess what? You're a dick!

fp


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

*This thread should get an emmy!*

Text thrashing miscreants....AHhhhh now thats entertainment! 
Who says education can't be intertaining?:thumbsup:

This just adds to my arguement that bike sellers should take more of an active role in this type of basic education. These people know if they are selling to a noob or not, and should step-up and take what may be the only opportunity for face to face education, even if it is just to hand them some literature. I mean after all their making money on mountain biking.
It's just a shame uneducated FNGs like these are allowed to ride trails we've worked so hard to establish, and maintain.


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

bobsyouruncle said:


> WG is right. The ongoing problem with no-skill pansies at Rockville sucks. All you can do is block the pansy line over and over and over again.
> 
> Unfortunately, no matter how many times you log/rock in pu$$y line, pansies will clear the line out and then unsuspecting folks will be drawn to that cheater line, and away from the real line (see attachment)
> 
> *What I don't understand is the "It took a lot for mountainbikers to finally have access to that park" business from someone who only started riding there in '01.* Your claim makes no sense to folks who have been riding there since waaaaaay before '01.


Altho I am not in agreement with this plan-b line it looks like it would be hard to block it's access, perhaps you could armor the ramp with rocks to cut down on it's skid erosion?
As I sit here with 2' of snow on the ground, I look at this sweet little section and my hands start to sweat. I would love to run the inside line of those water bars and drop my bash guard on that big rock on the top.

As far as your comment concerning the plan-b lines, you are SOooo right! there used to be a really fun trail in Moab called Porcupine rim, perhaps you've heard of it?
The same thing has happened there. If you follow the obvious (defacto) line, you'll ride right past about 1/2 of the obstacles, and not know it unless you happen to look back over your shoulder. Even tho it is still called an "epic trail", it's just a fading shadow of what it used to be.


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## kiwirider (Jul 12, 2004)

To the OP - people that leave their bikes in the middle of a trail to take photos are really annoying.


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## TehSuck (Aug 22, 2006)

Maybe it's just the trails around here that I've grown up on, but:

The cheater line looks harder and less obvious than the original trail. :skep: Maybe it's just the photo?


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## wg (Dec 20, 2003)

kiwirider said:


> To the OP - people that leave their bikes in the middle of a trail to take photos are really annoying.


Ummm, why? :skep: 
Helps provide a little scale and perspective.


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## imjps (Dec 22, 2003)

sodak06 said:


> Man,.... there are a lot more important things to stress over. Unless it is your trail on your property, get over it man.... I can't believe that you found it so appauling that you actually stopped your epic ride to take a picture of it..... Bet you thought about your MTBR post the whole ride back home.... huh?





Finch Platte said:


> Hey, guess what? You're a dick!
> 
> fp


No Sheet!

I never ever seen such ignorance typed out on these threads. This is a new low point for MTBR.

I hope I never ride with idiots such as Allknowing, Sodak06, NJMX835, or SRV.

I can't believe what I read from those guy's. Obviously, they have no appreciation for improving their skills as mtb riders. I guess we should adopt "The No Child Left Behind" attitude for these four pricks.

Please! Do us a favor and stay out of Northern California. Stay where you are. And mess up your own trails.

I feel sorry for those that ride with such clueless wonders.

jps


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

kiwirider said:


> To the OP - people that leave their bikes in the middle of a trail to take photos are really annoying.


Good point! LOL, I just wonder if this little tidbit of ediquite will also escape noob attention?

One other thing I would like to point out to any noobs who may still be following this line.
The person I'm quoting, Kiwirider... He's posting from the other side of the freekin world! and yes the same trail ediquite, riderless bikes in the trail and such, are the same.

Kiwirider? if I am in error, or you disaprove of me using your quote, I will remove it asap. You can either p.m. me, or let me have it on an open post. ( I'm a forum noob.)

P.S. You Kiwi's have the world's greatest trout fishing. Best fishing I've ever done, bar none!


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

wg said:


> Ummm, why? :skep:
> Helps provide a little scale and perspective.


 Weak defence, but still a nice recovery.


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Ha ha ha ha...thanks mate. See thats what I like, good communication.

:thumbsup:



Ken in KC said:


> That's what my Mom told me when I asked what something meant. I'll save you the trouble of grabbing a dictionary:
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/umbrage


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

bobsyouruncle said:


> Another view of this "incredibly challenging" obstacle that required a ride-around for someone:
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=3897990&postcount=11


It only took two sticks to block that horrible cheater line,..... wow... that must have been pretty bad, you know to take two whole sticks and all...... phew,.. good thing you guys were there...

This picture made the whole thing even more hilarious.......


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## nonoy_d (Jun 27, 2005)

NoManerz said:


> Time for some old barbed wire and rusted posts


____________________________________________________________________

Thank God that there are those people advocating for not using landmines, although the thought is brutal, the other option could be bring your saw the next biking and cut good size fallen tree trunks and place them at the edge of the trail


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## mud'n'sweat (Feb 16, 2006)

AllKnowing said:


> I think who ever cut that corner could see it wasnt right how you folks are damaging that tree for your own selfish amusement. Wont be long that trees roots will be exposed. You wanna ride over trees, ride over dead ones.


Really? Are you EVER going to make an informed post of relevance on ANY of the MTBR forums?


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## Frozenspokes (May 26, 2004)

What I have learned from this thread:

1. Some folks on MTBR actually build trail, understand sustainable trail systems, and have worked with land managers in order to gain or maintain access for MTBRS.

2. Other folks on MTBR are quite clueless as to any of the above issues but don't let their ignorance keep them from posting very strong opinions on said issues.

Now, I have posted on this thread, so can we finally end it?

Frozenspokes, the thread killer


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## bdamschen (Jan 4, 2006)

Ha, no way! I'm a noob and want to stir the pot some more. Some trails were around long before anyone was out there "stewardshipping" them or making them errosion free and sustainable. Most of the places I grew up riding did not have much going for them in the way of trail maintenace other than a few people who constantly rode it and burned in a line.

I agree with the OP that cutting on a trail like the picture he posted is stupid. I don't agree that every trail needs to be smoothed out, french drained and shored up with rocks until it's as smooth and wide as an interstate highway. 

Maybe I just fall under the number two group of people, but I've always felt that ruts and exposed rocks make the trail that much more fun. My perspective may be a bit skewed however, since most of the trails I ride don't have other types of users other than mt. bikers on them.


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## me_versus_u (Jan 4, 2007)

If the sticks don't work I've always had alot of success with cleaning up dog poo in the back yard and spreading it out in the short cut. Sure they might try it once but never again. ;-)


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Aw, C'mon*



kiwirider said:


> To the OP - people that leave their bikes in the middle of a trail to take photos are really annoying.


... that is a total lamesauce misdirect arguement and you know it. One could easily move a bike if he saw somebody coming down or up the trail.

Kinda like this:

You left the toilet seat up!
Yeah, well you didn't clean out the lint trap in the dryer!

Nothing solved. The government is really good at this exact same tactic.


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## norton55 (Oct 5, 2005)

with all the verbal banter going on i think the main point is being lost. there are a group of people who would love nothing better than to throw us off public land. why feed the fire. yes some of use have access to private land. but a lot of people don't.


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## mteez (Sep 22, 2007)

There's at least 60 + miles of what used to be fun, multi-purpose single track just a couple blocks from my house, that we started riding our Schwinn Stingrays on in 1965, that is now completely off limits except for horses and hikers.:madmax: 
This centuries old trail was already being used by bicycles way back as far as the mid/late 1800's and yet our local MTB advocates/clubs have been trying to reverse ban this for the last 25years without success. :bluefrown: 
If we keep getting banned off of public land for any kinds of improper trail use, infractions, or damages then someday soon there will be even less areas available for us all to ride. :madman:


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## bailout (Mar 2, 2005)

sodak06 said:


> It only took two sticks to block that horrible cheater line,..... wow... that must have been pretty bad, you know to take two whole sticks and all...... phew,.. good thing you guys were there...
> 
> This picture made the whole thing even more hilarious.......


   
We actually laid down more masses of dead branches because the "entry" to the forming "alternate" line is almost 2 yards long Yes, the dirt is churned up so much but you could not see it in WG's photo because he shot it from the other side. Anyway, how old are you? Cause you're acting like little bratty kidrft: rft: rft:


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## C S (Sep 26, 2007)

Man, some people don't seem to care that there are quite a few folks out there who would love to get us banned from trails. Cheater lines damage the environment around the main trail and should be avoided at all costs. People, if you can't ride a section, PLEASE WALK IT!! I know that not everyone has the skill/experience to ride every obstacle, but don't ruin a trail by making these bypasses. Really, how much good are you doing by making the cheater line? NONE. How much bad are you doing? A LOT

A trail I ride a lot has a sign at the trailhead that I think should be at the start of every trail (I wish I had a picture): STAY ON THE TRAIL OR WE WILL LOSE IT


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