# Long Travel hardtails (150mm) and coil forks...



## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

I am saving money for a fork to pair with a Kona honzo ESD and I need some advise. I have got it in my head a coil fork on a hard tail with long Travel would be better matched with a fork that doesn't dive into berms when breaking or cause so much chatter that the back wheel loses traction on technical. Considering there is no rear suspension and I am out of my element I could use some help. I am debating between a MRP ribbon or a Cane Creek helm either coil or air.
Thanks ahead to the gurus.


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## lookiel (Nov 13, 2012)

I can’t comment on the forks you’re considering but on my hardtail I run a 140mm Pike that I converted to coil with the Push ACS kit and can say that I enjoy the fork’s performance more than when it was air sprung: it’s not as divey, a bit more supple and also more composed. However it’s less tunable given that you can’t play with air pressure or volume so your mileage may vary depending on your needs. Choosing the right spring is key!


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## Mike Aswell (Sep 1, 2009)

A coil fork is definitely going to improve some of the issues you are referencing. I ran one on a trail bike for a few years (not a hard tail) and my only complaint at all is that the weight penalty is real, and it's all in the front of the bike. Which is not an ideal place for excess weight. So depending upon the type of trails/riding you do the most, it can become evident. In other words if there is a lot of up and over (step ups, rocks, fallen trees) it can be noticeable having the extra weight there. I also coincidentally ran a Pike converted with ACS kit.


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## drdre (Dec 15, 2005)

its a tough call - competing factors. On one hand, you need all the help you can get on a hardtail so coil would be nice to smooth the rough ride, but on the other hand, if the front is even more capable than the back, its even less balanced and it becomes even more painfully obvious with the front being in control but not the back. coil does sound nice to not have to futz with air pressures at all.

you can concentrate on having least dive. mezzer is really good at this. you can concentrate on plushness with a coil option. you can focus on damping with grip 2. pick whichever bothers you the most and target that is one strategy.

I'm currently having similar issues with an overforked current gen n9.


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

I used a Cane Creek Helm Coil on my Ragley at 160mm, was awesome, now I have changed its travel to 140mm and put it on my VerHauen, love it, no regrets.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Luckily I have a Cane Creek fan boy, expert for dialing in a shock perfect. I just ran across the damper issues with MRP on this website. I just hear the problem with Fox 36's and trying to get it dialed in for hardtails. Myself personally if I am not riding xc I am full squish so I like my forks dumb and simple and I dial my rear shock for chatter and drops. I am building this hardtail for flowy trails out of state and double blacks in FL which is my missing link in my stable.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I am using a Mezzer @150mm on my hardtail. It doesn't feel divey at all. I wonder if some of it is fork set-up for you? it's a hardtail, the rear will always sort of bounce around when it gets technical. But, I have been very impressed with my Mezzer to help the bike be planted.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Interesting that this thread appeared. I’m building a Nimble 9 with a 160mm Ohlins RXF m2 coil. I’m hoping it’ll make the bike more enjoyable than the Pedalhead I had with an air fork (Fox 34) that I sold a few years ago. 

I’m hoping this is going to be what I need to get back to some hardtail life  love my full suspension, but there are times you just want simple.

I’ll post a pic when it’s done.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

I've been really happy with My DVO Sapphire and I'm waiting on a new Diamond from them as well. 

The Off the Top (OTT) on them is fantastic. Really smooth small bump while allowing you to run a well-supported air spring. 

I tried to get along with a Fox 34 that I've struggled to like when I built up my RSD Middlechild V2. It didn't take me long to decide to put my Sapphire on the RSD and order a new fork for my Ripley.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

Nosdeho said:


> I am debating between a MRP ribbon or a Cane Creek helm either coil or air.
> Thanks ahead to the gurus.


I only have a bit experience with a Helm air MK1 ( was on a test festival in 2018 ). This fork felt almost like a coil and was much better than anything from Fox, or RS I had ridden before. I can't imagine the CC coil version to be bad.

I still prefer air forks even on my hardtail.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

lookiel said:


> I can’t comment on the forks you’re considering but on my hardtail I run a 140mm Pike that I converted to coil with the Push ACS kit and can say that I enjoy the fork’s performance more than when it was air sprung: it’s not as divey, a bit more supple and also more composed. However it’s less tunable given that you can’t play with air pressure or volume so your mileage may vary depending on your needs. Choosing the right spring is key!


The shim stacks are still tunable  but you’re right. All the springs. 

Air springs feel so inconsistent to me that I’ll run coil on anything i can find.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

FrankS29 said:


> I've been really happy with My DVO Sapphire and I'm waiting on a new Diamond from them as well.
> 
> The Off the Top (OTT) on them is fantastic. Really smooth small bump while allowing you to run a well-supported air spring.
> 
> I tried to get along with a Fox 34 that I've struggled to like when I built up my RSD Middlechild V2. It didn't take me long to decide to put my Sapphire on the RSD and order a new fork for my Ripley.


How many tokens did you put in to get the feel you were looking for? Did you adjust the compression and dampening differently then a full squish to get this feel? The only hardtail I have ridden for a long time is a ritchey 650-b with a Reba 100mm fork and I have it dialed in perfect. Before that I had a Gary Fischer with a coil and I beat the snot out of it. All of my other steads have been squishy.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Two people mention the mezzer I will do some research. Luckily I am paying cash so I have time before I pull the trigger. Thanks guys.


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

I have a mrp ribbon coil on my marin San Quentin 2 set @ 150 and it is amazing. You could also take a look at the marzocchi z1 coil


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## lookiel (Nov 13, 2012)

stripes said:


> Air springs feel so inconsistent to me that I’ll run coil on anything i can find.


Yeah, I also find coils more consistent and would gladly change all my forks to them despite the weight penalty👍🏼


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

lookiel said:


> Yeah, I also find coils more consistent and would gladly change all my forks to them despite the weight penalty


This is what I’ve done with all my bikes, from hardtail to DH. 

So much easier to service too.


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## joecx (Aug 17, 2013)

I had a Pike with an ACS3 coil kit on my HT for awhile but found the difference in feel front to rear was creating handling issues. I've since installed a new Pike with the C1 airspring that everyone seems to hate and it feels more consistent handling. I also don't like much more than 140mm travel as there are less geo changes.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Nosdeho said:


> How many tokens did you put in to get the feel you were looking for? Did you adjust the compression and dampening differently then a full squish to get this feel? The only hardtail I have ridden for a long time is a ritchey 650-b with a Reba 100mm fork and I have it dialed in perfect. Before that I had a Gary Fischer with a coil and I beat the snot out of it. All of my other steads have been squishy.


My Sapphire has one token in it, I wanted a touch more ramp up on bigger hits.

In general, I run a touch more high and low speed compression on a HT, I think it matches the rear of the bike more than just making it plush as can be. But some of this can depend on the trail and my mood.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Checking in to this thread because I'm planning to swap my Marz. Z2 to a Z1 coil this winter (on an ESD). I got the ESD frame to replace my cracked aluminum Honzo last spring, and had the 140mm Z2 already, which suits the bike just fine, and I don't hate the fork by any means, but....

Coil is just so much better than air. I think air forks are fine in slower, tech situations. Where I really feel the difference is in high speed, high-frequency chatter, especially as temperatures get lower. I finished a ride the other day on a trail riddled with braking bumps, and it was around 32 degrees Fahrenheit. My hands were numb and cramped at the bottom of the descent. I am a rock climber and basically don't get arm pump, ever -- but the fork beat my hands to death. It is bad on this trail when it's warm out, but manageable. In the cold, it was all I could do to hold on.

My other bike has coil suspension at both ends. Night and day difference. I basically don't feel anything in my hands on that trail, regardless of temperature. Can't comment on the two forks you mentioned, but I'd judge they are both an improvement over air, but a large margin. At most, you're going to gain 1 pound of weight. Unnoticeable.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

OneTrustMan said:


> I only have a bit experience with a Helm air MK1 ( was on a test festival in 2018 ). This fork felt almost like a coil and was much better than anything from Fox, or RS I had ridden before. I can't imagine the CC coil version to be bad.


Interesting. I have a Helm MK1 that I've run 160/170 on a hardtail and it is polar opposite to coil feeling. I've tried it all in terms of pressure/neg pressure/no volume adjuster/compression and it is always more progressive and higher in travel than my coil fork. It's a fine fork mind you but certainly on the sharp end of the progressive feel for hard charging. My preference would be a bit more supple and less progression to find full travel more often. With that, I personally would be interested in the Helm coil but as someone else said - the weight differences are legit.


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## joecx (Aug 17, 2013)

Carl Mega said:


> Interesting. I have a Helm MK1 that I've run 160/170 on a hardtail and it is polar opposite to coil feeling. I've tried it all in terms of pressure/neg pressure/no volume adjuster/compression and it is always more progressive and higher in travel than my coil fork. It's a fine fork mind you but certainly on the sharp end of the progressive feel for hard charging. My preference would be a bit more supple and less progression to find full travel more often. With that, I personally would be interested in the Helm coil but as someone else said - the weight differences are legit.


It is most likely the difference in dampers, I've had 2 Mk1's and now a MK2 set up both coil & air and the new damper is a bit softer and doesn't spike as much when using some HSC. With the air setup I took out the volume adjuster and run fairly high pressure to get a more linear feel.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I've got a 140mm 29er MRP Ribbon Coil on my Pipedream Sirius. I have run this as a 160mm fork before and you can adjust the travel internally without buying any new parts. Feels great on the trail and works well with a hardtail. I run a 140mm Pike on my other hardtail and it works well. So frankly I wouldn't lose sleep about running air or coil. They can both be great choices. If you have a strong desire to run coil go for it. I do like not having to set air pressure on that bike.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

Nosdeho said:


> I am saving money for a fork to pair with a Kona honzo ESD and I need some advise. I have got it in my head a coil fork on a hard tail with long Travel would be better matched with a fork that doesn't dive into berms when breaking or cause so much chatter that the back wheel loses traction on technical. Considering there is no rear suspension and I am out of my element I could use some help. I am debating between a MRP ribbon or a Cane Creek helm either coil or air.
> Thanks ahead to the gurus.



GET A 36 FACTORY and be done with it


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

numbnuts said:


> GET A 36 FACTORY and be done with it


I have a fox 36 factory on my wife's bike. She dialed it in pretty good but in downhill switchbacks the fork dives. High impact hits it is good and she has it set a little firm for fast recoil so she feels the chunk. Two problems with the fox 36 is the offset is not where I want it and a coil fork will devour the chunk and keep the rear more stable then an air fork. I might be wrong with the coils stability but this is why I am asking on this forum.


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## Shredmonkey (Jan 24, 2013)

You may want to consider adding a DSD Runt to an air fork to simultaneously solve brake dive and small bump sensitivity issues. Picked one up for a 36 Rhythm and it worked fabulously. Later I jumped on a great deal on a 36 performance Elite and it swapped right over. Gives coil like performance without the weight penalty or permanence of a coil conversion. 









runt — diaz suspension design


Insert for mountain bike suspension air forks that provides a coil like feel while maintaining a lower weight, infinite adjust-ability, and lower price.




diazsuspensiondesign.com






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Shredmonkey said:


> You may want to consider adding a DSD Runt to an air fork to simultaneously solve brake dive and small bump sensitivity issues. Picked one up for a 36 Rhythm and it worked fabulously. Later I jumped on a great deal on a 36 performance Elite and it swapped right over. Gives coil like performance without the weight penalty or permanence of a coil conversion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was loving it until I saw the maintenance schedule. I. Calling the company anyway to see how the runt works on Rockshox and if my old fox 34 rhythm could be used.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Nosdeho said:


> I was loving it until I saw the maintenance schedule. I. Calling the company anyway to see how the runt works on Rockshox and if my old fox 34 rhythm could be used.


Once a year is when you should be pulling apart your fork anyways right?


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

socalrider77 said:


> Once a year is when you should be pulling apart your fork anyways right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I like my forks stupid and easy to maintain. Reba, 34 rhythm. The Fox 36 performance and Pike my wife have I send off. That is why I dread getting a cane creek or an MRP air shock.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Nosdeho said:


> I like my forks stupid and easy to maintain. Reba, 34 rhythm. The Fox 36 performance and Pike my wife have I send off. That is why I dread getting a cane creek or an MRP air shock.


Your 34 rhythm and 36 performance should be the same exact steps to service, ones just slightly smaller stanchions


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

Nosdeho said:


> I am saving money for a fork to pair with a Kona honzo ESD and I need some advise. I have got it in my head a coil fork on a hard tail with long Travel would be better matched with a fork that doesn't dive into berms when breaking or cause so much chatter that the back wheel loses traction on technical. Considering there is no rear suspension and I am out of my element I could use some help. I am debating between a MRP ribbon or a Cane Creek helm either coil or air.
> Thanks ahead to the gurus.
> View attachment 1961002


PS, sick bike. She's is probably my favorite.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

numbnuts said:


> View attachment 1964763
> 
> 
> 
> PS, sick bike. She's is probably my favorite.


I can't wait to ride it. I just bought the wheels some profile racing hubs paired with stans century hoops. Still debating the fork but all the other gear is coming off of the bin box of friends. Xo drive train and a some random fixens.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

socalrider77 said:


> Your 34 rhythm and 36 performance should be the same exact steps to service, ones just slightly smaller stanchions
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just blew out my Reba after a year and a half of racing and grinding I will finish it later this week , my wife doesn't trust my rebuilds yet so I can't fix her fork just her rear shocks. I am not looking forward to sram brakes bleeding I heard it is annoying. I have heard with the 32 mm stanchions fox and Reba use almost the same kit. Just curious. Ps the wiper seal popped up on the dustiest part of the trail noticed it when I put my bike back on my truck sad it was still rolling smooth.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Nosdeho said:


> I can't wait to ride it. I just bought the wheels some profile racing hubs paired with stans century hoops. Still debating the fork but all the other gear is coming off of the bin box of friends. Xo drive train and a some random fixens.


Man, I think the ESD just might be my favorite bike of all time.👍👍. I just got a brand new Transition Patrol, which is awesome — but — guess which bike I’ve ridden for the last five rides? 😉

It is even more ridiculous now because I put a 160mm Z1 on it, which, as it turns out, has been a significant upgrade over my 140mm Z2. I was planning to get the 150mm air shaft but I think I’ll leave it after all. I got a 6th-place all-time on Strava today (climbing segment), and it was on snow…

The thing just slays on the downhills.


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## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

Digging up an old topic since the subject is near and dear. 

I've been running the MRP Ribbon Coil in 150mm on my self-built hardtail, and have been very pleased with it. The simple setup, low-maintenance, and top-notch performance make a good match for a hardtail bike.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Love the coil Ohlins RXF 36 on my Nimble 9. Feels amazing.


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## DrSRK (Nov 12, 2021)

Used to ride every local A line 10 years ago on a SC Chameleon with 160mm 36s.

For the most part dive would be damping related.

Other than when on a dually you'd otherwise have your weight back, squashing the rear shock which on a dually slackens and squats the bike.

A HT can't squat so on transitions etc you will dive the fork and need to pop the front wheel to prevent OTB. On a downhill switch back its a matter of getting your weight back and rolling the bike around you. A bit more so since the bike can't squat.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

DrSRK said:


> Used to ride every local A line 10 years ago on a SC Chameleon with 160mm 36s.
> 
> For the most part dive would be damping related.
> 
> ...


Thanks most of my hardtail experience is in xc and that helps explain downhill switchbacks to a FL boy. I have a Bronson with a fox 34 and I tried to alleviate the dive.


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## cacatous (Dec 1, 2013)

I have a Suntour Zeron coil 140mm and it feels great! A bit heavy but so am I so I don't mind.


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