# Men!! Grrr!!



## MichH (Jul 28, 2006)

Hi ladies!

Had an experience this weekend that made me mad. Here in sunny SA, none of our riding is that technical. But recently a bike park has opened up. About 4 green loops, 4 blue loops, a couple of black routes, and 2 out of category double diamond black routes. I went there on Sunday morning for a bit of fun, and met another girl riding there (quite busy, Family Day for one of our local coffee shop franchises)

Anyway, I could see she was pretty new (no cardio fitness,etc). BUT when I speak to her and THE BOYFRIEND, he condescendingly informs me that "she's ridden Maelstrom, that's a black route".

Is he TRYING to scare her off?!! Or maybe kill her?! She did her first 15km race last weekend and fell 4 times! On a non-technical race?! 

So I took her one side and STRONGLY suggested that she rides with various riding partners, and swopped numbers. I'm going to take her riding and make sure she has FUN!

When I was leaving, the owner was fetching his mobile to make sure that the ambulance could find the park. When I asked what happened, some other girl (not my new friend) had been injured on one of the blue or black routes. She probably had broken ribs IN HER BACK!!! and maybe worse. He was saying the same thing, why do these idiot boyfriends insist on taking their girlfriends on routes over their heads?!

So ladies, similar experiences, advice on how I can save more chicks from a similar fate?

Really steamed right now...


----------



## Nostromo (Sep 22, 2005)

MichH said:


> Hi ladies!
> 
> Had an experience this weekend that made me mad. Here in sunny SA, none of our riding is that technical. But recently a bike park has opened up. About 4 green loops, 4 blue loops, a couple of black routes, and 2 out of category double diamond black routes. I went there on Sunday morning for a bit of fun, and met another girl riding there (quite busy, Family Day for one of our local coffee shop franchises)
> 
> ...


Good for you. Yes some men are stoopid, they should be pleased they can ride anywhere with their girlfriends/wives and let them figure out for themselves if they want to try something more challenging instead of pressuring them into it. My wife doesn't ride but I am teaching my daughter and I just make sure she's enjoying herself.


----------



## MichH (Jul 28, 2006)

Nostromo, great to hear that you'r riding with you daughter. That's how I got into cycling (admittedly at the age of 27!), my dad took me riding. I saw a guy with his sprog this weekend (boy). Great to see parents passing on their passion, and encouraging!!


----------



## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

When I went DH skiing for the first time, my BF took me to the top of a black diamond just one day after I had learned some basics. 

I stood up there, seeing nothing but fog below me and mountaintops across the way. I began sobbing a little- "This is how people DIE, beginners like me on the black slopes!!":sad: 

Managed to get down alive, but in order to slow down I'd have to fall and crash every few minutes. Haven't been skiing since........mostly due to the expense and other interests, but that experience didn't help at all! 

Guys need to take a couple of weeks, hold their horses and patiently teach their GFs the basics. So you don't get to hammer all you want for a while, BFD. The results would be worthwhile.


----------



## CycleMainiac (Jan 12, 2004)

I've been hearing of this kind of thing for as long as I have been riding.

The "Date" ride has many forms but but usually follows the same pattern. Experienced guy with high end gear, inexperienced gal with mediocre gear, technically challenging trail. After 10 minutes neither is having fun anymore. Often the gal gets hurt and never rides again.

Our answer is Ride Like A Girl


----------



## dir-T (Jan 20, 2004)

*True story....*

This was about 10 years ago.

My friend "Hey, I taught Marcy how to bunny-hop last weekend".
Me "Cool, how'd you do that?".
Friend "I yelled at her until she cried".

It's been ages since either of us has seen Marcy. I doubt she still rides. My friend has wised up a bit since then but I still get a laugh thinking about that conversation.


----------



## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

Sorry - just interloping

I dated this girl. For a long time she talked about getting good enough to become "Moab Worthy". My friend and I would go to Moab all the time, and - realistically - most of the riding was over her head. She was determined to get good enough to go with us.

Took her on a few weekend trips over there, typical Gemini Bridges, Klondike, etc... then we moved up to Amasa & Flat Pass. Finally, she was at a level that I was sort-of comfortable taking her out on Slickrock (with guidance). You know that one spot where the photographer always sits? I told her to walk it - there is no shame in walking. She sees me ride it without hesitation, and decides she can do it too. 

It ends with an endo, a superman (woman), tears and a long walk back to the trailhead.

And it ended her riding. She would still go out and humor me, but she lost interest... gained weight, lost fitness, quit caring.

So - it's not always the ******* boyfriend. Sometimes it's the girl who won't listen.


----------



## Ms Mustard (Jul 28, 2006)

Wow - I must be "lucky" to have a husband who wasn't out to have me baptised by fire on the trail. I have only ridden twice on the trails so far (using hired bikes for the day from REI and EMS stores). The first time I rode was with a Mtb class for women with REI. Excellent way to ease into it. Then went with DH and two of his riding mates in Delaware - long sweeping singletrack without too much technical stuff. We came across a skills trail advising experts only. I was concerned, but we walked through them without bikes first and he pointed out things to look out for. Then he jogged behind me when I rode!!! I felt like I was a child again!!! But it was all good. I never felt pressured to do what I wasn't comfortable with, and one of the guys was always behind me giving me tips to improve my riding. I am looking forward to doing more when I get my own bike (payday this Thursday - YAY!), improving my skills (those [email protected] loose rocks!) and getting up those winding hills without feeling like I'm going to die (you'd think 2 spinning classes a week would help more!).

But I did have a talk to the husband before we got going, telling him that I am NOT him, so go easy. The thing is, I guess he wants me as a riding partner long term, so he knows he has to be nice. 

Thats my 2 bobs worth.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*People do this with newbies all the time.*

It's not just guys with their girls. It is so hard to get riders to be conservative with new riders and work on fundimentals in simple settings for ANY period of time.


----------



## aliensporebomb (Feb 2, 2004)

My wife got a dual suspension K2 recently and we've been out on one trail -
but the bike went back to the store shortly after that because it was one 
size too big and that can make a HUGE difference in on-trail confidence.

But she's still getting used to the fact that MTBs give you that surefooted
confidence in angled turns and such - she's just used to her old skinny
tired Schwinn from high school. Now she's got a bike with front and rear
suspension and disc brakes - it's a whole new world.

I'm having her set the pace on the one trail we were on so far. I'd rather
treat it as a recovery ride for myself and have her ride at the pace she 
thinks will work best for her and if she wants to speed up later that's 
fine.

Now that she's got a bike that's the right size she wants to go riding
on trail again and I think I've got the perfect one - it's generally flat 
except for some rises and curves and one set of switchbacks but 
it's the kind of thing that if you opt not to go over something there's
plenty of terrain to go around it.

The big thing is if it ends up being fun in the first place, she's more
likely to want to do it again. If it ends up being un-fun it will likely
end there. BUT....the funny thing is it's rained the past few days 
so the trails are sodden and no riding is likely to happen.

It's cool to actually see her riding on a dual boinger though on
trail though- I always knew she could do it.


----------



## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Honestly, I don't think there is a lot you can do.

I suppose you could station yourself near the run map and offer pre-ride couple's counseling... We usually point and laugh from a distance and then alert the medics at the bottom of the hill. ;-)

I see this a lot at Deer Valley - lots of dudes in Dockers shorts with woven belts, dragging their totally terrified, sweatshorts-wearing chicks down blue runs on rental bikes. It is just as much a woman's responsibility to say that she feels like she is over her head. If she doesn't, perhaps she wants the scars. 

When I first started riding, I was pretty reckless (definitely not wreckless). I have a lot of scars from trying things that were beyond my skill and ken. I started riding in Seattle, so Moab was the first time I ever rode in sand - I still have a scar from a high-speed sand burn, 10 years later. My boyfriend at the time was terrified for me - I fell so many times on Slickrock that he thought I was going to give up and quit forever. Now that we have been married for 8 years, he knows that I am far more stubborn than that. 

Anyway, my point is that if she wants to be out there, a few crashes probably are't going to put her off. If she isn't really all that stoked, a crash or 2 at the beginning might be just the illustration she is looking for in order to justify focusing on a less dangerous sport. 

Cheers,
C


----------



## dHarriet (Sep 26, 2005)

chuky said:


> I see this a lot at Deer Valley - lots of dudes in Dockers shorts with woven belts, dragging their totally terrified, sweatshorts-wearing chicks down blue runs on rental bikes.


I've definitely seen that!



> It is just as much a woman's responsibility to say that she feels like she is over her head. If she doesn't, perhaps she wants the scars.


i completely agree...that is why i have also adopted the 'point and laugh' reaction to that situation.:devil:

and the really sad thing about these biking dates is that the only instructions that these girls get before going down that double diamond run is: 'go fast and don't fall'. yeah...that'll really help them out!


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

While I've been guilty of taking women on trails above their technical skill level or fitness level, its not because I'm trying to push them too far as often as its been them lying about their skill level and/or fitness level. Why do some women feel they have to come off as Missy Giove clones to get guys to want to ride with them ? Really... we're men... you have boobs and wanna wear tight lycra... that's enough for us to be interested. You don't have to make **** up about how skilled you are. And buying an expensive bike with your own money, when you can't ride basic stuff, isn't going to help matters. Case in point, girl I used to ride with used to talk about how she used to jump cars on her bmx bike (in retrospec they were probably hot wheels) and raced XC while living in florida. Fine... so I take her on a sport-level XC route and she walks her new $1500 5" front and back travel full suspension along some pretty basic stuff.


----------



## cbharping (Mar 22, 2004)

My boyfriend was GREAT when he first took me out for my first rides. He got me a bike that FIT ME, took me on easy trails, and didn't sprint off ahead of me. A few sections were a little scary for me, which is pretty normal in the beginning, but I had enough success on the rest to make me excited to learn how to do those sections I couldn't do! When I started to learn clipless pedals, he took me on several road trail rides to practice clipping in and out. Aren't I lucky??? 

The biggest transition for me was going from a road bike to a mountain bike. I think a lot of guys come from a childhood of BMX riding and jumps, so they have that head start that a lot of women don't have. Their "beginner" starting point would be quite different from someone who's only ridden a road bike. Maybe that's where some misunderstandings comes from.


----------



## TLud (Feb 21, 2006)

I don't hang out in this forum much, but the thread title caught my eye, and this was a good read for me. In some ways, I've been very careful about introducing my gf to the sport (sized her for the right bike, upgraded it as needed, and have taught her how to maintain it). I also never force her to try anything over her head.

In other ways though, I've been the frustrating guy that's been described here. I wasn't always completely sympathetic to her different skill level or riding enjoyment. I wasn't always patient with her need to take her time trying new trails or skills. I always tried to teach her, but it wasn't always suited to her learning style. She loves riding, but her understandable frustration built up until it sucked most of the fun out of rides and actually caused her skill level to regress.

About a month ago, we had a long talk about it, which resulted in a few changes. Now, when riding together, I always stay close to her, so that she always feels comfortable trying difficult sections (I get my fast riding and practice time in on my own). If she walks or makes a half-baked attempt to clean a section that she's done before, we'll stop and talk her through it. If she doesn't feel comfortable doing it, we'll promise to try it another day. If she is willing to try it, I'll give her all the pointers I can and let her take her time trying it. Instead of trying to get her to hurry up and "just do it," I'll use the time to practice my own skills while keeping an eye on her. We've also made major progress on our communication. I no longer talk to her as if she's been riding for 10 years and should "just understand."

The difference has been amazing, not just for her, but me as well. She enjoys riding again. Her skill and speed have skyrocketed. The pleasure of riding with her has multiplied exponentially.

I don't think there's much you can do to save random women from the fate described by the OP, but you can teach your male friends and significant others how to handle taking new female riders out on the trails. It's definitely a learning process on both sides of the equation.


----------



## MichH (Jul 28, 2006)

Wow, some amazing insights. TLud, I think you've stumbled onto a key factor here, communication!! I think men and women sometimes start from such different places that we need to TALK to get onto the same page!

This girl seems really nice, and she has the right gutsy attitude, let me see if I can get her riding with some different riders and she will improve so fast!


----------



## SuperKat (Mar 27, 2005)

*Good Points*

I think there are some good points in this thread. I myself have been lucky to ride with guys who understand my hesitation on some things. Their gental encouragement when they know I can do it makes me love these guys even more, especially upon progression.

I also believe that resorts need to develop more runs with beginners and less aggresive riders in mind. Attract the crowd, let them build confidence and then they may start pushing themselves to bigger and better things. Plus sometimes I just want to go and take a few calm runs and there are only two trails to chose from. They get pretty repetitive.

Beginner DH race courses especially. If you want them to keep coming back to ride/race, you have to balance on the fine line of challenging and non-injuring! It's tough, but no one can ride in plaster casts. And I think quite a few of us have to get to work in the morning.

Take it easy,
KAT


----------



## Dwight Moody (Jan 10, 2004)

dHarriet said:


> and the really sad thing about these biking dates is that the only instructions that these girls get before going down that double diamond run is: 'go fast and don't fall'. yeah...that'll really help them out!


That's more instruction than I got. Which is why I progress slowly, fall alot, and read a lot.


----------



## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

MichH said:


> Hi ladies!
> 
> Had an experience this weekend that made me mad. Here in sunny SA, none of our riding is that technical. But recently a bike park has opened up. About 4 green loops, 4 blue loops, a couple of black routes, and 2 out of category double diamond black routes. I went there on Sunday morning for a bit of fun, and met another girl riding there (quite busy, Family Day for one of our local coffee shop franchises)
> 
> ...


Should I say Women Grrr! because of this true story???

I dated this woman I met at a sail board rental club, and I was not very experienced (the sailing part). She took me into cold water and huge waves in Lake Michigan and Lake Superior that schooled me good, and then she took me horse back riding and jumped over fences when I could hardly ride. Then she bought a mountain bike and would fly down hills and ride aggressively the way she sailed and rode horses and she attacked climbs with more gusto than the guys I would ride with. It seemed like it took a huge road road ride, expert skiing, too much beer or home repair to find areas where she did not kick my a$$. I think it might be her being smarter regarding any advantage I might have for beer and home repairs.

I am very glad that I did not complain to the sail board rental people, park rangers or others about what this woman did to me because I got better at sports and we would probably not be in our 18th year together. I also may not have ended up with 3 gorgeous kids who have clearly inherited strength and determination in addition to this woman's smarts and good looks.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

TLud said:


> About a month ago, we had a long talk about it, which resulted in a few changes. Now, when riding together, I always stay close to her, so that she always feels comfortable trying difficult sections (I get my fast riding and practice time in on my own). If she walks or makes a half-baked attempt to clean a section that she's done before, we'll stop and talk her through it. If she doesn't feel comfortable doing it, we'll promise to try it another day. If she is willing to try it, I'll give her all the pointers I can and let her take her time trying it. Instead of trying to get her to hurry up and "just do it," I'll use the time to practice my own skills while keeping an eye on her. We've also made major progress on our communication. I no longer talk to her as if she's been riding for 10 years and should "just understand."
> 
> The difference has been amazing, not just for her, but me as well. She enjoys riding again. Her skill and speed have skyrocketed. The pleasure of riding with her has multiplied exponentially.


There are gals on this forum who take to this sport like fish to water but they are rare in the overall population of women. If you want to introduce the larger variety of women to the sport it is critical to challenge one's own investments and assumptions about riding.

Getting my High School boys to ride is easy. Dirt, speed, skills, mud, winning; what's not to like. It's like turning lose a box of puppies. For many of the girls it just isn't that way; they like the cardboard box, thank you! For men this is often exasperatingly contrary to their need to just to out and ride. In short, you have to bend over backwards.
Even the women who coach girls on other teams just roll their eyes and say "these girls are sooo high maintenance! You put in all that time and they end up leaving."

The hump you have to get girls over is a long and tedious one, often because you are starting from absolute scratch. There are countless hours of skills-building and years of base miles to be done. For our League we start to see girls _really racing_ in their 3rd year of training (though there are exceptions.) Unfortunately, there are girls who drop out in their Senior year because they want to "have fun" and "enjoy " their Senior year. (Kill, kill, kill, count to ten.)

A perspective: I have been riding in dirt for 15 years. Toss in my road riding and I probably have 50,000 miles in me. I imagine there are quite a few riders like me. My extensive experience is so not from a female perspective. I've been coaching boys and girls for 7 years. It would be foolish of me to expect a new rider to stay with me on a ride unless I scaled things down. A lot. It would be foolish of me to expect a new rider to stay with me if they felt they were holding me back or to accept everything I said as gospel. Would they hang around if it wasn't "fun" or they weren't taken seriously or weren't provided a useful context for their learning? Not bloody likely.

It is a fine line that you have to really want to walk. At times I have gotten to a point where I just wished girls weren't the way they were. That is when the lightbulb goes back on, sometimes brighter than others. Nice work TLud.


----------



## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

stripes said:


> I got told this by a guy this weekend: "You can't climb. Why do you do this (mountain bike)?"


Yeah - I saw this girl out riding Friday night... she was going all slow up the hill, and before you know it I was up in her grill with

"Hi - great night out, huh?"

You should have throttled him. Or a swift kick in the boy-parts. You know how in all the old movies from the 20's, girls are slapping the hell out of guys, or dumping drinks on them? Why doesn't that happen anymore? As my sister would say, "Gina up!"


----------



## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

TLud said:


> I don't hang out in this forum much, but the thread title caught my eye, and this was a good read for me. In some ways, I've been very careful about introducing my gf to the sport (sized her for the right bike, upgraded it as needed, and have taught her how to maintain it). I also never force her to try anything over her head.
> 
> In other ways though, I've been the frustrating guy that's been described here. I wasn't always completely sympathetic to her different skill level or riding enjoyment. I wasn't always patient with her need to take her time trying new trails or skills. I always tried to teach her, but it wasn't always suited to her learning style. She loves riding, but her understandable frustration built up until it sucked most of the fun out of rides and actually caused her skill level to regress.
> 
> ...


This is such an awesome post I just had to quote it again. Great insight and perspective. I bet that as your gal gains skill & confidence she will lessen her "need " to have you close by especially on familiar trails.


----------



## BelaySlave (Aug 4, 2004)

I *think* this might be my first post in the Women's Lounge....

Last month I ran into a buddy that was taking his fiance out for a ride out at one of our local haunts. There's nothing extremely technically difficult about the area...but it does have a variety of trails from singletrack to dirt road and obviously some moderate/intermediate climbs and descents. 

Anyways me and my buddy run into him at an intersection and then I asked if his fiance was riding with him and he said yeah, but this was like her first (or second or third) time out and she had to walk down from the top. She was a bit far behind so we just sat there and chatted. But I was really wanting to ask him why he wasn't riding WITH her. She eventually joins up with us and even though she had a smile on her face and was very cordial, it was apparent that it wasn't her cup o' tea. We bid our adieus and took off and then I hear back from him later that his fiance had crashed and fell into a pile of poison ivy and was done.

Whenever I ride with somenone whose skills or physical fitness is not extremely high...I ride WITH them...sometimes just a bit ahead or just a bit behind...but I never leave that person behind and then wait for them. What I've found is that they feel more comfortable riding knowing someone is near just in case something happens.


----------



## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

I typically get the "baptism by fire" ... but I kind of like it that way. Something about absolutely getting my butt kicked doing something makes me want to get back out there and prove that I can actually learn it. 

But obviously, it requires communication and knowing who you're dealing with. Some people don't mind the challenge, and others want to ease into a new activity.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*As we all know, Stripes,*



stripes said:


> Unless the box is full of LEGOs, I'm in the mud with the guys


you're a right-rare bird, luv!


----------



## TLud (Feb 21, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> It is a fine line that you have to really want to walk.


I think you said it all in this one sentence. It's about being understanding without being condescending. It's about encouraging and challenging without pushing too far. Pointing out areas for improvement without being overly-critical. This fine line is made even more delicate by the inherent differences in which men and women communicate. It's a lot of effort for both sides, but the potential payoff is huge, especially with a significant other.


----------



## TLud (Feb 21, 2006)

Impy said:


> This is such an awesome post I just had to quote it again. Great insight and perspective. I bet that as your gal gains skill & confidence she will lessen her "need " to have you close by especially on familiar trails.


I'd put money on it. We'll still probably always ride pretty close, but each time we go out we go a little faster. There's not many better feelings than flying through and carving up singletrack with her hot on my tail. It's amazing what a connection it is.


----------



## Cate (Jul 11, 2006)

cbharping said:


> The biggest transition for me was going from a road bike to a mountain bike. I think a lot of guys come from a childhood of BMX riding and jumps, so they have that head start that a lot of women don't have. Their "beginner" starting point would be quite different from someone who's only ridden a road bike. Maybe that's where some misunderstandings comes from.


This is so totally true. I rode my road bike all the time as a kid..while the husband was riding his BMX, doing tricks and all of that other "boy" stuff. He is pretty good about just pushing me a little bit outside of my comfort zone, but I am not a fan of steep downhill yet, and sometimes he pushes that a little bit much. I think he and I will always be different types of riders with different reasons for riding (he is more of an adrenalin junkie, where I am more looking to be a better rider for fitness and getting out in the outdoors). I only ride with him once a week and ride with my daughter the rest of the time. I am way more confident trying new stuff at my one pace than I am with him forcing it.


----------



## Allamuchy Joe (Oct 18, 2005)

*You want to be treated equally, but gently?*

Just kidding. Put away the flame throwers. 

Ladies, I am here to inform you that some of us guys don't get it. Some guys feel they have to prove themselves all the time. Even when they bring a male newbie along, they have to bring them on the hardest trails to prove masculinity. Not sure why that is because, when I bring a newbie lady or a newbie guy, I make sure they are on friendly trails and never get left behind. Also, I design the rides with that person in mind and try not to do anything too difficult. Or, if a trail has an unavoidably difficult section, I tell them it is coming up and if they do not feel comfortable with it, get off an walk that section -- we will wait for you. No problem. And, I agree with BelaySlave -- ride with the person or close to the person and check out the situation.

My philosophy on the sport as this -- if you scare the hell out of someone during their "start up" period, they are going to hate the sport and not go anymore -- not to mention the probable injury they could sustain. This is supposed to be fun -- no reason to make it anti-fun with an avoidable injury.

Happy trails.


----------



## chucko58 (Aug 4, 2006)

*A clueless guy pleads for clues*



stripes said:


> I got told this by a guy this weekend: "You can't climb. Why do you do this (mountain bike)?"
> 
> So freaking what? I'm slow uphill (I'm an Athena), and taking this from someone who doesn't use any technical skills riding really toasted my cookies. :madmax::madmax::madmax: Just because someone can ride uphill doesn't mean they know beans about technical riding. I can ride technical and downhill just fine.. I just need to work on losing the extra hardtail attached to my, uh, hardtail
> 
> I can't tell you how much I wanted to throttle him. :madmax:


I'm the insensitive, skill-deficient testosterone-poisoned man-boy Stripes is talking about throttling. For my wife's sake, please spare me the kick in the boy-parts. :eekster:

I told my wife about this situation and asked her if I'm really that much of an a$$h*le. She said that I can come across that way at times even when she knows I don't mean to. So _mea culpa, mea maxima culpa._

If I have anything useful to add to the discussion, it's this. *Timely communication is essential.* I don't read minds, so you have to tell me when you're not happy with my words and actions. Guys by nature and acculturation generally are not as sensitive as women. Somewhere between the subtle snipe that I miss, and the clue-by-4 that hurts as much as my endo last weekend, is the right intensity of communication. And sooner is usually much better than later.

And by the same token, it's not just women who go along on rides beyond their ability. On this ride I wasn't sure how fit I was, but I knew for sure my trail riding was rusty. I'd been on this trail often in the past, but my riding skills didn't come back instantly (and they weren't that great when I was riding regularly either).

I rode with Stripes' group because I thought it would be a kinder, gentler way to get back into riding. And I have no complaints with Stripes or the group. Even hurting from my spills (which were entirely my fault), I had a lot of fun.

Other than my bruises, I thought everything was fine - until the email from Stripes the next morning letting me know she was upset. Now I'm seen as the inept, insensitive a$$h*le (and in 20/20 hindsight, I did act that way). Why didn't I hear about it on the ride or right after? 

Prompt communication when you aren't happy with the situation will go a long way towards cluing in those men who aren't completely testosterone poisoned. It might even get them to change their behavior on the spot. Please try it.

Now excuse me while I get ready for the onslaught of nastygrams that's sure to arrive in my inbox.


----------



## Cate (Jul 11, 2006)

*So after all of this thread*

I proceeded to push my daughter out of her comfort zone on our ride last night.  The good thing is she ended up doing a very small drop off that she was scared of...and asked to do it again.  I felt mean up until that point, but I'm also a big chicken, so I knew that she could do it, because I could.


----------



## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

Dear Clueless,

Here's my take on things. If'n I'm on a ride, and somebody makes a comment I perceive to be snide, I've got a few options.

A) Spin up until I almost vomit, then brake check them at the top while yelling "Take that biznitch!"
B) Suck it up and try to not let it impact my own ride. All sticks and stones and crap.
C) Give it some thought. Maybe I was feeling insecure and misperceived an innocuous comment. Maybe it's not worth it to me to end my ride with a confrontation. Maybe this person is a friend, and it's worth the discussion.

A is over the top. B gets you nowhere. C ain't too shabby of an option.

Sure, ideally, one would have the composure to have a totally diplomatic conversation when their feelings get hurt, but when you're chaulk full of endorphins, it just ain't ****ing likely. So, it's not such a bad strategy to think about what you say before spewing it. A strategy that it seems you too agree with, after asking the silly question about why another rider would bother riding.

The answer to that question is obvious - there is fun in challenge, pride in accomplishment, and the potential for humility around every corner.


----------



## chucko58 (Aug 4, 2006)

For the record, the question I asked Stripes was in the context of a private conversation over lunch after the ride, not on the trail in the middle of the group. And I thought long and hard about how to phrase it delicately, and still failed. It wasn't intended as a slam - I was genuinely curious. She doesn't fit the stereotype for a female MTB'er. More power to her, and to any other lady rider who isn't shaped like a marathon runner.

There's definitely an opportunity for humility here for me.


----------



## ima_bleeder (Aug 25, 2006)

BelaySlave said:


> Whenever I ride with somenone whose skills or physical fitness is not extremely high...I ride WITH them...sometimes just a bit ahead or just a bit behind...but I never leave that person behind and then wait for them. What I've found is that they feel more comfortable riding knowing someone is near just in case something happens.


Absolutely! Although I always make my more experienced friends ride in front. If I can watch the person in front clear something it shows me how to do it myself. I'm also not comfortable going over something I've never seen if I can't clearly see the other side, which doesn't seem to bother most of the guys I ride with. But even if I can't clearly see the whole thing (oops, where'd that log come from?) I'm more likely to take the risk if I can see what how the person in front rode it.


----------



## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

First, I want to come to the defense of male mtb'ers. At least the ones I've ridden with have been unfailingly supportive and encouraging. They have no problem with standing to the side of the trail and cheering me on when I clean a section that stopped them, and I return the compliment when they ride a tricky section that defeated me. Now, several of the guys I ride with are nurses, so maybe it is just the sort of personality that is drawn into that profession? Anyway, I have had no complaints. In fact, recently I have ridden with a couple of new (rather attractive, male) riding partners and find myself riding at a higher level than I have pushed myself to before. It's been fun.

My thought about the boyfriend who takes the beginner girlfriend to the top of the double black diamond trail... I think a lot of guys in their first relationships are totally clueless. They want to share an activity with the girlfriend, but the only experience they have with doing that sort of thing is with their male buddies. Thus, they use the 'competitive, just get out there and do it' method and find it does not work as well with the ladies. Hey, everyone has to learn somehow...  ... It is definitely the woman's responsibility to say 'I am not comfortable with this'. However, women in their first relationships tend to think 'I need to do this or he won't like me'. Again, they have to learn somehow. Hopefully without beaking any bones.

Stripes, I don't blame you for being upset... "You can't climb" is pretty dismissive and not what I want to hear from a riding companion. How about some constructive criticism, like a suggestion on how you might climb better or how to pick a good uphill line? Sheesh, guys complain there aren't enough women mountain bikers and then they come out with comments like that. As to "why do you do this?", I think we all ride to enjoy ourselves and GET BETTER. So someone who can't climb very well this year might kick your a$$ next year. Keep working on it and don't let the tactless comments get you down. It won't be long until you start hearing compliments about your riding, and have the guys trying to keep up with you


----------



## skygod74 (May 3, 2006)

I've had the opposite happen to me: I've been told by a few women mtbrs that I couldn't climb worth a $h!t. I actually didn't mind the verbal abuse. Made me work harder. :thumbsup:


----------



## venus1 (Aug 4, 2006)

*Do You Have Pretty in Pink Girls?*

I've always run w/ the boys & can hold my own w/ them. You guys are assuming your girlfriend is not an athlete & you are. I think if you dated an athletic woman you might be surprised & be left in the dust. Where do you pick up these whimpy pretty in pink babes & do you really expect breast implants to add O2 volume on the trail?


----------



## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

lots of thoughts.

-I'm not going to join in the men bashing, although it would be fun and I have my own war stories to tell. Half the time the negative stuff that I have to deal with is the result of my own crap (attitudes, perceptions, lack of communication), not anything that else that's done to me by someone else.

-I was one of those gals who did struggle in the beginning, and it was due to lack of fitness and skills on my part, and diverging learning styles from my partner. He's a thrasher and was way more fit than me at the time; I need things demonstrated and explained. I'm no wimpy pretty in pinker ( oops, I do like to wear pink) but I did have to get "turned" into a mountain biker. We still have to work really hard at communicating about sports related issues.

-I've ridden with jerky women too, it's not just a male game.

- Life is good. I took a newbie guy out today, and he was so excited: " I love getting whupped by an older woman". I didn't really whup him, it was a very moderate pace with big smiles from him the whole time, but I do like the concept.:thumbsup: He make a point of saying how it was different from a ride he did a few days ago where he was in a little over his head, pace wise.


----------



## laivindil (Apr 3, 2005)

stripes said:


> As far as your tone, try to think about how you would feel if someone said the exact same thing to you. Just takes a few seconds to think about composing a sentence that won't sting. This is something I know from experience as it's something I work on all the time.
> 
> My gut reaction to be as blunt as possible, and most folks don't like that. :nono:


Disclaimer; I'm a guy so take this for what it's worth.

Some guys who say a$$hole-ish things would't care if it was said to them. Some may have been raised in the type of environment where that was considered normal. Men by nature aren't as sensitive so when you ask them how they'd feel if they were on the receiving end and don't understand when they answer "I don't care" just remember we don't understand why it's a big deal to women. TLud got it right; communication if key.

Blunt and honest is my way of doing things. I find it helps to eliminate miscommunications and whatnot. Also; if I look like a fruitcake in my helmet tell me now so I can return it


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

On the tangent subject of Women Grrrrr....

Ok... here's a couple stories about another girl I used to ride with who actually was honest about her skill/fitness level. She was slow. period. I could live with that fine. What I couldn't live with was the fact she seemed to have a dirtier mind than me (yeah I can here the laughter now), or rather, she had this habit of saying stuff out loud that a guy (married or not) can only interpret badly, then when I made a dirty retort to what she said, she'd get all offended. Case in point, we're just riding into the woods together for an evening ride and she's in the lead and says out loud "I'm having a really bloody period, and if it keeps bleeding on the ride you're gonna have to do something about it." LIKE WTF?! Where does a statement like that come from, and I'm NOT dating her so how is it my responsibility to take care of it?! I just rode on in silence...A week or two later she stopped riding with me (for good) and she sent me this email explaining why and it mostly involved her saying "you look at me like I'm just a sweaty piece of meat". Well with continual statements like the aforementioned one, what the hell am I supposed to look at her like? She's got a crude mouth and no filter between brain and said mouth.

A month later there was a sunday group ride with 9 people I was on that she was on also. Now its 8 guys and then 1 girl...her... and we're taking a rest break to regroup and gather our wits on this really technical trail which I was showing them (I'd done it twice so far, once each direction the weekend before) and she's complaining she needs a new bandaid for her chin (she tripped over her own feet in the parking lot and carved her chin on some gravel after she faceplanted) because the existing one is soaked with blood and sweat. I say out loud "I'll get it" since I was next to her. So I'm leaned over going thru my pack looking for the first aid kit when I hear her say "hey you, don't be trying to poke that thing inside me". 

Every other guy turns and stares at her, jaws drop, brains start churning for snappy responses but the guy at the head of the line of us goes "WHAT?!?" "What the hell are you talking about???"

She replies "there's a mosquito on my leg trying to bite me...." all nonchalant totally oblivious to what it sounded like she was saying.

And the OLDEST rider in the group, who definitely fits the dirty old man profile (and he's in his 50s) responds "i can't believe you said that out loud next to deeeight" (as I'm well known among that local site's community as not someone you give ANY kinda opening for when it comes to saying something dirty).

And I just commented "See! That's what I had to put up with for a year..."

Course there was also that girl who just as I was about to lurch the front wheel over a rock ledge says out loud "Oooooohhhh this is a c u n t friendly saddle". Talk about throwing a guy's timing off. Ladies... take note of that one... guaranteed way to muck with a man on a group ride.


----------



## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

the meat of this discussion is pretty generic in nature and had less to do with guys and mountain biking than it does finding a good instructor, male or female. 

just because your significant other does something and does it well, does not mean they can instruct worth a damn. would be no different with tennis, rock climbing, boxing, whatever, pick any sport or activity and it works the same way. just some can be more painful to learn than others if your instructor sucks.

i'm a dude and used to have a girlfriend that boxed, and she repeatedly kicked my ass good, and did not let up even tho i'm no boxer. but i'm a little sick and did actually kinda enjoy the beatings so i guess it's not quite the same thing so nevermind


----------



## Cate (Jul 11, 2006)

*Couple of responses*



venus1 said:


> I've always run w/ the boys & can hold my own w/ them. You guys are assuming your girlfriend is not an athlete & you are. I think if you dated an athletic woman you might be surprised & be left in the dust. Where do you pick up these whimpy pretty in pink babes & do you really expect breast implants to add O2 volume on the trail?


Everyone has to start somewhere- and is new at some point. I used to do gymnastics, horseback riding, ride my (road) bike everywhere, and do track (hurdles) when younger. Even after having kids and a full-time job, I stayed semi-in-shape, until a birth injury to my pelvis side-lined me a couple of years back. Regardless of athleticism, if someone (male or female) hasn't bombed down steep, rocky, single track, ever, especially on a new and unfamiliar bike, they might be a tad bit intimidated. 

I might not wear pink (clashes with the hair), but I do like the girly stuff, even while holding my own with men in life and work. 



salimoneus said:


> the meat of this discussion is pretty generic in nature and had less to do with guys and mountain biking than it does finding a good instructor, male or female.


Yeah, my dad (an old flight instructor) can teach me how to do about anything. My mom can't even give me directions somewhere without me getting frustrated.


----------



## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

laivindil said:


> Disclaimer; I'm a guy so take this for what it's worth.
> 
> Some guys who say a$$hole-ish things would't care if it was said to them. Some may have been raised in the type of environment where that was considered normal. Men by nature aren't as sensitive so when you ask them how they'd feel if they were on the receiving end and don't understand when they answer "I don't care" just remember we don't understand why it's a big deal to women. TLud got it right; communication if key.
> 
> Blunt and honest is my way of doing things. I find it helps to eliminate miscommunications and whatnot. Also; if I look like a fruitcake in my helmet tell me now so I can return it


It's not always even a male/female thing. I have a female friend who is German and it's just more culturally acceptable to be blunt. She's told me I look fat - because she thought I'd want to know. I have a mirror, thank you. :nono: Mind you, she's also liberal with the compliments when I look good (and it is nice to know when it's coming from someone who is brutally honest) - but it was entertaining explaining to her that I'd rather not have her announce that my butt looks big when we're out with a group. We had a little discussion about how if I'd like her opinion on the size of my ass, I'll ask. In private, most likely.

But basically, if someone you're friends with makes stupid comments - just tell them to cut it out. "HEY - I know climbing isn't my strength right now, but I'm working on it, and your negative comments don't help at all".

Then if they persist in upsetting you - maybe it's time for new friends.


----------



## salimoneus (Oct 12, 2004)

Allamuchy Joe said:


> ...
> Ladies, I am here to inform you that some of us guys don't get it. Some guys feel they have to prove themselves all the time. Even when they bring a male newbie along, they have to bring them on the hardest trails to prove masculinity. *Not sure why that is *
> ...


let me tell you why some guys are always trying to prove themselves. it's because they have one or more of the following:

1) insecurity issues
2) a small wee wee
3) low self esteem
4) not matured


----------

