# Free Tubes!



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

In the interest in providing some really good documentation of the framebuilding process from a first-timers perspective, I'm offering to give away *one* set of basic cromoly frame tubing to the winner of this little contest (including brazeons and all the little stuff, as well as a bunch of scraps to practice on). *Here are the rules:*

-*You have to be a first-time builder.* I would prefer someone who is NOT an expert metalworker or welder in another field, but a genuine blank slate instead. Experts take too many things for granted, and I think a total beginner will help everyone out more.

-*You must be committed to building a frame*, and to documenting it here (or elsewhere online where I can easily link a thread in the forum). If you do not complete a frame (or make significant progress) within 6 months of receiving the tubes, you promise to pay me their fair market value, AND to ship the tubes to someone else who wants to build a frame.

-You'll need to be willing to *take plenty of photos* (ie, you'll need to have a digital camera) and write up what you've done. We don't need War and Peace, but if you're not a great (or enthusiastic) writer, be ready to spend a lot more time than you usually do typing. If your schedule or other interests make it unlikely that you'll have enough free time, please don't enter.

-Because I'm a TIG guy, the tubes provided will be appropriate for TIG or fillet brazed construction. If someone wants to do a lugged frame, that's great, but I don't have the appropriate tubes for most lugsets, so you're on your own. If you ruin some of the tubes, you'll have to purchase more from me (or elsewhere) at your own expense. EDIT: Livewire has offered a set of oversized lugs as well, so if you'd like to do a lugged project, that's also an option. Thanks LW!

-If you live in the US, I'll ship the tubes to you for free. If you don't, you'll need to pay my shipping costs.

*So here's what you have to do to win:*

-Post a reply to this thread telling us what you plan to build, who will be riding it, and why you want to build it. *I'll choose a winner in 2 weeks* (so the Tuesday after next) from the entries submitted by that time. Keep in mind that I'm looking for someone who will successfully complete this project - that means an idea for a crazy 4-bar suspension tall bike is probably not going to win, because your first frame is much more likely to actually get done if it's relatively simple.

-The project does NOT have to be a mountain bike. A road, 'cross, or hybrid/town bike are also fine. No recumbents, tandems, trikes, or other oddities, please ('bent guys, please don't kill me for saying that...)

-Treat your entry like a college application essay - tell us a little about yourself, your project, why you think you should get the free tubes, and how committed you are to doing a great job. In other words, suck up like crazy. Remember, your goal is to show that you can do a good job not only building the frame, but *documenting it so that we can all learn from your experience*.

-Walt

Edit: As of 2/14/08 we have the following entries:
MichauxYeti
McFlan
Kint
Akamp
Ong
Ttwo
Gotdirt
Hokie77
JGwright
Redwood078


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

This is mighty generous of you Walt. Good On Ya!


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

cool stuff


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

shouldn't you have to own some basic tooling? at least an a/o setup? good on ya, steve.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*I think that's covered...*

If they don't build it in 6 months, the tubes ain't free. So I'm assuming folks will be able to access the tools they need. A student with access to a college machine/welding shop, for instance.

Good point, though. If you have no tools and no prospect of getting any, you probably should not enter.

-Walt



coconinocycles said:


> shouldn't you have to own some basic tooling? at least an a/o setup? good on ya, steve.


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

Walt said:


> -Because I'm a TIG guy, the tubes provided will be appropriate for TIG or fillet brazed construction. If someone wants to do a lugged frame, that's great, but I don't have the appropriate tubes for most lugsets, so you're on your own.
> 
> -Walt


Cool idea Walt!
If it helps to get somebody going, I have an OS mtb lugset (for an 1 1/8" fork) and BB shell I can donate to the project.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Walt:

This is going to be really cool!:thumbsup:


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

I'll toss my hat in the ring, although I don't meet _all_ of your criteria. I am a welding engineer in the military vehicle field, and am decent at TIG welding. I have access to a welder and machining equipment at work.

What I'd like to build is a 650B specific hardtail appropriate for east coast riding and endurance racing. I envision this being built around an 85mm travel fork. It will have short chainstays to aid in climbing, a low or dropped top tube reminiscent of the EWR, and be disc-specific.

Future plans include a 4" travel single-pivot FS bike, also built around the 650B wheel. That design is already on paper, but I'd rather build a hardtail first to get comfortable welding around a tubular joint.

Frame building has been a goal since some time in high school, but finances have always interfered in one way or another.

EDIT:

Okay, maybe I understated things a bit. Starting in about 9th grade (13 years ago?) I became completely obsessed with bikes. I started a notebook sketching out every suspension design on the market so that I could gain a better understanding of how each design worked. When it came time to choose which college to go to and what to major in, it all came back to which would help me in building bikes in the future. My first semester was spent in a mechanical engineering major, and it ended up sucking. It was all theory and no hands on work. I transferred colleges halfway through my freshman year to PA College of Technology in a Welding Engineer program because, you guessed it, it would help me to build bikes someday. Finances and time constraints prevented me from building a bike frame for my senior project, but don't think it wasn't strongly considered.

Directly out of college I married a single mom, and have had next to zero disposable income since.  I'm sure lots of parents can relate. I now work for a military contractor that builds armored vehicles as a welding engineer. The vehicles are pretty damn cool, and the job pays most of the bills. However even now, 13 years later, I am still obsessed with bikes. Every free minute is spent studying frames, components, racing and training techniques, and everything in between. My passion (obsession?) has spread to my wife and both kids. My daughter is the current 10 and under mountain bike national champion and placed 3rd at cyclocross nationals. My 2 1/2 year old son has a tiny bike of his own and he prefers Roam over Care Bears. Weekend fun for me? Wrenching for the pro team segment of my wife and daughters team, Velo Bella.

Now, why do I want to build a bike around 650B wheels? To understand this you need to appreciate the area that I ride in. Michaux State Forest in south-central Pennsylvania has some of the most technically demanding terrain in the country. The trails are pretty primitive and some are shared with enduro motorcycles. They are riddled with exposed roots, shale rock gardens, and tight twisty singletrack that goes for miles. A 26" wheel is strong enough to handle the abuse and light enough to be race-worthy, however it struggles with the trail obstacles. A 29" wheel rolls well over the obstacles, but is heavier, doesn't handle as well in the singletrack, and presents a lot of frame design issues. The 650B, despite the limited selection at this point, should offer the benefits of both wheel sizes with few of the downfalls.

I'm not going to beg or spin a yarn about a disabled veteran brother with terminal cancer who's dying wish is for me to build a 650B hardtail. I do hope that I've made my case that I will be the best candidate for making this project happen so that it will benefit others on this forum.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I will be happy to contribute my time working with the photographs. It's not much, but it could help.

Taking high-res pictures with the camera on the right settings, with good lighting, and good clear compostion is crucial to any documentation.

E-mail me or snail mail me a CD with unviolated full resolution pics and I will be happy to crop them, size them, and adjust the levels and color balance so that they are quite clear and as usefull as possible.

I figure that this is something that I can contribute.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Jeez!*

That's not really sucking up. Don't you watch reality TV? I want to hear about your twin brother's tragic suicide attempt, and how now he dreams of racing a 650b bike to save the local orphanage from getting turned into a golf course by some evil developer. Alternately you could just praise my wisdom, breeding, and perhaps appearance.

The welding engineer part probably handicaps you a bit here, since that makes you not really a beginner, but you're leading the field as of now! Feel free to edit your post and tell us more about why you want 650b wheels, what kind of riding you want to do, blah blah blah.

-Walt



MichauxYeti said:


> I'll toss my hat in the ring, although I don't meet _all_ of your criteria. I am a welding engineer in the military vehicle field, and am decent at TIG welding. I have access to a welder and machining equipment at work.
> 
> What I'd like to build is a 650B specific hardtail appropriate for east coast riding and endurance racing. I envision this being built around an 85mm travel fork. It will have short chainstays to aid in climbing, a low or dropped top tube reminiscent of the EWR, and be disc-specific.
> 
> ...


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## mcflan (Feb 5, 2008)

I know its lucrative, but I want to build a full suspension frame. I have been reading over a lot of material and have been wanting to build a frame for the longest time but A) Didn't know where to get the materials or B) Know of any techniques. I've been getting really into wanting to make my own frame the past couple months. I've been reading RELIGIOUSLY at night trying to figure out a solid setup. I know that you said no 4-bar suspension linkage and that the build should be relatively simple and straight forward. I want to take the chance to complete a full suspension, all mountain frame for nobody but myself. I have contacted many privately owned and operated bike frame companies and tried to get some headway with where I should start and what I should do. I have NO experience with welding, but I have the utmost desire to learn. I DO want to learn on a TIG welder, mainly because the welds to me, are a lot more distinctive and stable. 

I can't even tell you how much I want to win this competition. I want to start from scratch and end up with a masterpiece. I want to make a frame and if I don't; I realize the consequences. However, I WILL accomplish my goal of completing this frame within the time frame allotted. I will take pictures as I make progress so I can get opinions and suggestions. I know that I'm supposed to make this frame for myself, but I want feedback through forums so I can incorporate everyone's ideas in my dream frame. Since your niceness of giving the Free Tubes away, I think this should be a community idea with an individual trying to make it work! 

I've made up drawings of frames (I can send them to you if you like) and find myself spending more time browsing MTBR forums then paying attention at school. I have a lot of free time and I want this project to occupy it! PLEASE! Help me get started to build my own frame!


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

Lucrative or ludicrous?

And on a compeletly differnt topic, just how many welding engineers are running around here? I have never met another one in person.

Oh, and good idea Walt!


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## mcflan (Feb 5, 2008)

Eh, nonetheless, I want to try. I know the consequences should I not succeed. But I won't let myself fail. I have access to a TIG welder, but I have no experience in engineering or anything of that nature. Just an average student Joe, looking to start up my own frame with sweat, determination, and simplicity.


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## kint (Jan 26, 2006)

*hell yeah - ME !*

*nice idea. so heres why it has to be me...! *

im kint aka sven, from germany - (no problem with paying the shipping cost) .

problem and primordial reason for me is : I'm 6ft 8 tall, which makes finding a decent MTB frame a hassle.

I started riding mtb in 1990 - when i was 12 years old. back then i owned an aluminum "Mtb" of german brand called "kettler".it was what you could afford from your pocket money over here - 26" wheels, broad tires , DH bar and freaking "powerful" U-brake included. however i was a tall 12 year old in those days and the frame cracked 2 times at the headtube / downtube junction. although aluminum was said to be strong (hence i had chosen the bike) it wasnt - it was poor designed and later "reinforced" with some square bar alloy "gusset".. so in 1993 i took the frame after the second crack to my LBS where i bought it from and claimed my money back. got it and with some extra cash from my holiday jobbbing in the factory my father worked for i made myself up to find a "real" mtb.

thats when it started for me, and thats why i claim starting mtbing in 1993.

it was a 1993 GT karakoram elite - in 22" framesize. (although GT's 22" were a real 24" frame - i was a clyde at the age of 15 - 6 ft 4 ) - and it was PERFECT. the price ? "cheap 1700 $ " back then (!) 
made of truetemper GTX tubing it was stiff. and fast. full rigid a real nice riding bike. had all the 1993 lx,dx and xt bits on it. heres a pic of the US version (same spec ) :










note the funky cable routing under a chamfer of the top tube - called "groove tube" a gt/trutemper copyright. thats what opened my eyes for extraordinary details i love till the present day like the ibis handjob or loopstays etc...

i rode that bike uphill, downhill, touring - like i sayd it was perfect for me. never i was aware of the fact that the geometry could be better, few people spoke of length specific geometry or even 29ers in those days. if you were tall and wanted to go mtbing you had to have a tall 26er frame that was the only option.

however it was stolen in 2001 which let me fall in some kind of bike depression. i refused to finance a new mtb and rode city bikes for some years - although i was working at my LBS at that time. i had built some bikes and planned to ride them before, ( like my Gt LTS-1 1997 ie - finally switched back to aluminum) none of them or in 01 of our assortment (mostly trek and gary fs and merida and some other brands ) had the feeling of my gt k-elite. it was all ok to, but not the same. riding citybikes well brought me along, but i kind of missed riding the dirt and the desire to build a new bike grew stronger. thats when i descovered a 1993 karakoram elite on ebay in 2004. the problem was - it was only 20" (real 22") in size - ok for speeding the city was it definitely too small for riding the hills. heres a pic of it ( and me @ 6ft 8) :










those are rare and you cant find them in 22" frame size. ebay is really adictive and i bought a zaskar frame. and then another. and so i stumbled into a 1988 Gt avalanche made of tange prestige tubing. this is my current clasic rebuild - here you can see the condition how i bought it :










and hopefully it will look like new in two months or so (finding suntour xc 9000 parts is a hassle) :










currently I'm mostly riding my 1993 zaskar build :










although its a 20" size its not perfect, its the geometry - you know all the arguments for big guys riding 29ers in the mountains and they are perfectly true.

Now I'm heading on what Frame i plan to build and why.

THEN i discovered 29ers. they're not very common over here in germany or even old europe, theres still a discussion whether they are useful or not, who shall ride them and why and all that stuff. I was finally conviced I will give them a try ( I guess Im the perfect fit for a 29er) but then shock ! gt sells 29ers (called "peace") only up to size large which is clearly too small for me. so i started testing with a 28" wheel GT nomad cross frame, but the small wheel clearance ticks me of. currently i am in a descision whether i shall buy one of those salsa or voodoo frames , even considered a curtlo custom build. all nice.

SECOND when i joined a board community over here several years ago i found a thread where someone explains how to build your own frame. (its german but perhaps you like to take a look at the pictures..: https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/showthread.php?t=137681 - apart from the lottery its nearly what you plan to see walt.) and felt the urgent wish to do this sometime too.

However - since the second wish grew stronger, and the first option is so, say "non- fancy" i decided combining both plans in one - a month ago. so I'm going to build a 29er frame whether i win your lottery or not. THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN. 

I own lots of technical knowledge. currently I'm studying economics and engineering at university and have worked with my two hands ever since i remember. My father is a engineer too, and I presume he was glad his son enjoyed working with material and tools too. He teached me all he knew and thats a lot. I worked in the model shop of the company he managed as holiday job when i was younger. thats where i learned metal work, milling and welding ( although i dont want to weld the frame, theres no tig station in reach too, plus it was 10 years ago i held my last torch in the hand.forgot everything about welding) I've build all my custom build ups myself. i worked 4 years @ my local LBS. I've build lots of different stuff, including my PC  , the only things i had handy to picturize where my "treasure box " built when i was 14. and the most recent a picture frame for a ancient chineese Tea money coin - (pressed tea - offers the oportunity to drink your money - clever people the chinese...:eekster: ) designed to work with the front and backview of the "coin". I know this is pretty meager applying for a tubeset but its the only things in reach right now. click here:

https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/500/medium/DSC02768-1.jpg

https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/500/medium/DSC02771-1.jpg

the plan is however - to build a fillet brazed 29er MTB frame with customized geometry, with my own two hands - mainly with common tools i (or the eager handyman ) own. i dont have acces to a mill, i dont own a tig, but i do own several files, grinders - and soon a brazing torch like the one i recommended in the frambuilding section of the bikeforum here :

https://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=6010311&postcount=8

of course milling and tig is fine but in the moment its no option for me - so I'll have to do it with blood sweat and tears. It will work. with patterns for the miters and teh torch and a DIY jig. :thumbsup:

i was in the process of collecting information, perhaps you recognized me sneaking around your board soaking up information on everything i could find teh last days. currently I was intending to read your subforum backwards - just got my frameforum activation up yesterday too, when i popped in your little lottery and couldnt withstand. I wouldnt consider having collected enough knowledge to build a perfect frame from my point of view but i know I'm experienced in the handling of tools enough to be able to start it now. Im applying for your tubes, since i have a nice project with backround to offer, plus time since im a student at university . sorry for this long excursion in my personla history but you aksed for it. plus it was good to write it down - helps me focussing on the project. sorry if you consider my english isnt appropriate for documenting the process but this is the best i can offer at the moment.if you dont accept my application for that reason i would understand that too. HOWEVER NICE IDEA sven :thumbsup:


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Dang!

It looks like this is going to get good.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

I'll give it a shot. I have done a little Tig and have a welder but mainly just on bigger stuff like bumpers and such. I would love to try to build a frame because it was always my mom's daughter's brother's desire to build a frame and I think it would be great to do it for me, um, ah, I mean him. I would really like to build a 650b MTB 1x5. I am currently in Dental School so this wouldn't end up as a career for me so you wouldn't have to worry about any competition on my part  . I have taken an O/A class in the past for fun but never used what I learned. I have also taken half a TIG class but had to drop out when my wife had a miscarriage numerous years ago. I have always loved getting my hands dirty, worked in shops all through high school and college. Used to ride with Steve from Coconino a bit and worked/road with Wade from Vulture for a few years and I see the cool work that they have done and it makes me wish I would have followed their ways. Whoever you pick for this is one lucky dog, thats for giving someone a chance to do something like this.

Aaron


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## Spud 395 (Feb 5, 2008)

To early for me to even enter this, only starting reaserching frame building now.
In fact I joined this forum to follow this thread.
This is exactly what I'm looking for, so hurry up get them tubes out to who ever and let it begin.


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## kint (Jan 26, 2006)

*sorry*

i forgot a thing or two.

first - thanks :



Walt said:


> ...
> -Walt
> 
> Edit: As of 2/5/08 we have the following entries:
> ...


second - where i stand in general. Currently im in the process of decision on the tubeset I'ld like to use. reading the newbie advice at this board to start with a lowtech/ price efficient tubset - i thought of one of the nova 29er tubesets but the seattube is to short- thats why Im currently into collecting infos on butts, and tapers and such. the tubing issue isnt that easy...

third is a thought that went through my mind that it would be nice to have a matching rigid fork too. so i planned to use a nib answer manitou sx crown i found once to build into a rigid fork with steel legs and the nova dropouts - the ones that look like the ones from the tange bigfork ..:

https://www.novacycles.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1318

should look like a beefy switchblade in the end i guess.. dont know whether this works . well see. :eekster:

thats all good luck to everyone. :thumbsup:


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## ong (Jun 26, 2006)

I'll throw my hat in the ring, too! I started getting materials and experience together a couple of months ago... I've got the Paterek manual, an O/A rig, brass and silver with flux, a REALLY crappy Harbor Freight drill press, and a bunch of hand tools (I'd be coping tubes by hand, with a hacksaw and files). Ultimately I'd like to make a nice longtail to replace my Xtracycle, although I wouldn't attempt that for quite awhile.

I have done a number of practice fillets, and I just finished my first real project: a porteur rack for my town bike. It's a little clunky, but it works! Here are a couple of shots:









Platform assembled, fillets still pretty unfiled.









A decent-looking joint -- holy crap!









Rack in place for testing -- no paint yet.

The first frame I want to make is a beefy tourer -- my girlfriend and I are planning to do some light touring around Oregon this summer, and I'm planning on a rack-equipped 700c bike with beefy 35mm tires and full fenders. I'm currently building up a rear wheel on an uber-tight budget, since I'm planning to build this jigless, and would like to use the wheel on a flat surface to check alignment as I work on the rear triangle.

Thanks, Walt! Even if I don't get the tubes, I'm really interested to follow the updates of whomever does....


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Well goddamit. This is going to be very fun to watch. If I wasn't starting a shop, I'd throw my hat in the ring too! Can't wait to see what comes of this. Great idea Walt. 

As far as something I can do - I'll chime in w/PVD. I can easily edit/manipulate pictures if he's not able to. Just let me know!


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

FABTASTIC idea! Good on ya, Walt!


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## MrCookie (Apr 24, 2005)

Here is my first home build documented. It's been 2 years, and I have built 3 frames so far (all fillet brazed, I'd love to take a stab at building with lugs).

There are aspects that are easy, and there are aspects that are difficult. What is easy for some is difficult for others and vice versa. I encourage you all to give it a try. Some of the pics show what I did with regards to jigging the first time around.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=163993

Any suggestions on where I should/could post all the pics I have to date? I could make a photo essay of sorts along the lines of what is being suggested in the contest here.


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## Ttwo (Dec 29, 2007)

What a cool offer Walt. I saw your post on my thread this morning before I went to work (before you made it official) and you had me thinking all day about my frame. I was thinking of not applying for one main reason. I thought you would require a finished product in a more aggesive time frame, 6 months however if more than fair.

So on that note I would like to put my application in for a chance at the tube set. I may or maynot qualify though. I am a first time frame builder, though I do have welding experience. I have a G.M.A.W cert and considerable fabricating experience. With that being said I have never fillet brazed or T.I.G weld before. All of my back ground is with big structural steel. I do have some tools and plan on buying whatever I may need within reason. A big part of this project for me is not only to build a fun ridable frame but to build a jig ficture that is a usable tool as well. Eventually I would love to kick a couple frames a year out of my garage. This frame will be built for myself. You saw my design concept in the other thread, basically a pretty standard 2 triangle frame fully rigid single speed. I have a lot of workstill to do on my drawing (still trying to comprehend functional frame geometry and work out all the major glaring errors.) I will try to have final design by the time you award the grant (or tubes set)in two weeks. I am more than willing to document the intire processes with pictures and text. What better way to get educated along the way from a handfull of quality craftsman in this medium that frequent this forum.

I must say I have fantasized and talked about building a frame for a long time. I found this forum (mtbr that is) for other reasons only recently. Looking around I found you guys here in the frame builders forum and it just got me excited to follow through. It got me to strart drawing and researching. Thanks you guys and I hope I don't piss any of you off with my stupid questions.

Hey Walt are you requiring a fork to be part of this build? 

Thanks
T2


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

MrCookie said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=163993


Perfect info for the project!


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

*my application*

Here's my plan...
I leave for UBI on Saturday and I hope to keep a "diary" of what goes on there (both bike and non bike related) when I get back I plan to start a blog about my experience there, with the UBI diary enteries, and the trials and tribulations of trying to start a frame building business.
I did take one welding class last semester but it was mostly stick stuff taught by a retired iron worker... 
I'll keep you all posted on what happens (And Walt, I'll even take a tubeset too..lol)


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Only if I had access to some tools. 

Have been interested in biking for several years from building up bikes for myself and friends, never made a dime and if I did I donated it back to the local cycling community. Helping out building trails, donating tools, parts new or used really did not matter. Recently relocated the family for a new job and after a few months they proceeded to loose the contract and start dismissing people. Now out of work I would have more than enough time for the project, but without tools would be up a creek in fairly short order. Walt you have many good choices here to choose from and will really be interested in following the progress of the selected builder. This sounds like a great opportunity.


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## rustola (Jan 15, 2008)

kint said:


> Im currently into collecting infos on butts


teehee


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## brent878 (Apr 17, 2007)

I have a TIG at home but I am new to welding. I probalby won't enter the contest but how long would it take a beginner welder to do a bike frame? I am guessing that even if I won 6 months would be hard to make a bike frame for the first time. I always seem to under estimate the time of my projects and I am talking about mostly working on weekends. How long does it ususally take a person to make there first frame if they only worked on weekends? And by beginner welder I mean I know how to weld but I don't have a ton of projects under my belt and my welds are strong and penetrating but don't look as pretty as an experienced welder. And of course it takes me longer or more pratice welds than an experienced welder.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

This should be a fun project, thanks Walt!
I really enjoy this forum much more then the "other one" . New guys like myself can ask a question here and good an answer without a ton of critisism (did I spell that right?) like other builders out there tend to do. Thanks all.
My plan is to start a frame building business called "Steel Stew Cycleworks". I'll be a small run production builder instead of custom (there are builders like Walt that are much better at that). 
By doing small production runs I'll be able to play around with different ideas and philosophies and be able to "Stew" them together (get it? Stew?...)
Any ways, thanks again to Walt and everyone else for keeping this topic laid back and un-intimidating.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

I really like posting photos on Picasa. They provide a nice interface for sharing and posting to boards such as this. its a freebie from Google.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*My first frame...*

My first one (done with very little experience, but a decently equipped shop) took me about 80 hours of work. And it was (and still is) pretty ugly. But it's my wife's townie, it goes in a straight line, and she's still riding it, so I guess it's a success.

I would plan, roughly, on 100 hours of work, or somewhere around there. I think that's a reasonable estimate. If you can work 2 hours each day on the weekends, you'll make the 6 month cutoff no problem, so you shouldn't sweat it too much. And remmber "significant progress" counts - you don't have to finish in 6 months, you just have to keep making progress and updating us on how things are going. The scenario I want to avoid is giving a set of tubes to someone whose enthusiasm declines and who stops working on the project before it's complete.

-Walt

rd to make a bike frame for the first time. I always seem to under estimate the time of my projects and I am talking about mostly working on weekends. How long does it ususally take a person to make there first frame if they only worked on weekends? And by beginner welder I mean I know how to weld but I don't have a ton of projects under my belt and my welds are strong and penetrating but don't look as pretty as an experienced welder. And of course it takes me longer or more pratice welds than an experienced welder.[/QUOTE]


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

I've been taking measurements from the bikes in my garage. It appears that none of the suspension forks I have will accomodate a 650B front wheel. While the dream of building a 650B frame is far from dead, it will be postponed a bit. Here's the latest design, now featuring clearance for 26x2.3 tires despite a shorter than standard chainstay. Because I wouldn't put anyone but myself on my first frame, I decided to go with an integrated seat post. Any feedback?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

While it seems great to do things like extended seat masts and suspension bikes, the first bike involves so many things to learn and overcome that a fairly traditional frame is challenge enough. I strongly encourage anyone attempting this project to keep the design fairly 'plain jane frame'. Play with geometry for sure, but save the adventours for frame #2.

Also, make sure to lay some groundwork for making this a usable bicycle. Ask around and make friends at your LBS. Find out who has frame prep tools; ie bb taps and facers, head tube reamers, and seat tube reamers. You may be able to get some help here that will vastly reduce your costs on tooling that you may only use once or twice.


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

I don't foresee the ISP being an obstacle. My plan is to have a traditional bolt and braze on at the top with a cut down seatpost to allow for about an inch of adjustment.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

MichauxYeti said:


> I don't foresee the ISP being an obstacle.


That is exactly what I'm saying. Not knowing what the obstacles are is what gets the begginer into a whole lot of trouble. If you have never done a traditional seat mast, how do you expect to know what happens when it is extended?

KISS


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*HEck, I've never done one!*

I imagine you'd run into problems such as:
-What tube to use. Probably straightgauge .049 or something - you need the ST/TT/SS joint to be pretty strong, especially if there's no seatpost in there. If you wanted to use a butted tube you'd have to A) find one long enough, and B) do something (shim, sleeve?) to reinforce the TT/ST/SS joint. 
-Distortion. The mast is probably going to end up pointing off in some odd direction from joining the other tubes (though I don't know, as I've never done one). Might be hard to straighten it out again.

For the record, I'm not looking for anything weird or unique design-wise. The whole point here is to provide some documentation about the *construction* process, and difficult to build and/or unconventional designs detract from that goal by introducing extra hurdles for the builder.

KISS, indeed. Don't try to build your dream bike on your first attempt. In fact, you should be mentally prepared for the possibility that you'll have to throw the whole thing away when you're done and start over.

-Walt



pvd said:


> That is exactly what I'm saying. Not knowing what the obstacles are is what gets the begginer into a whole lot of trouble. If you have never done a traditional seat mast, how do you expect to know what happens when it is extended?
> 
> KISS


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

Fair enough. Thanks for the feedback, everyone. How does everything else look, geometry-wise? I based the fork specs off of a 100mm Reba Team that I'm currently riding.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

MichauxYeti said:


> How does everything else look, geometry-wise?


It looks great except for the chainstays. 650B tires make tire/chainring/stay clearances tight enough and your 16.3" is VERY short by 26" standards. Think more along the lines of 16.8".

Also, for a 100mm fork I'd make the head tube a little steeper but not by much. 1/2 to 1 degree steeper.

Also, don't use ground trail. Use mechanical trail.


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks again Walt for starting this thing and encouraging folks to think.............I wish though that it were for *USA* "builders" only but I know that it would not be fair. This is gonna be real good! :thumbsup:


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

MichauxYeti said:


> Fair enough. Thanks for the feedback, everyone. How does everything else look, geometry-wise? I based the fork specs off of a 100mm Reba Team that I'm currently riding.


Just checking - are you using the specs for the fork as it sits on your bike? You should account for the sag you get when you're actually sitting on the bike, otherwise you angles and bottom bracket height are going to be set up for a bike without a rider!


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

The specs (axle-crown, offset) are from SRAM's website. As I stated in the post with the drawing I've had to adjust my plans to fit 26" tires instead of the 650B's that I had originally planned. This is primarily due to the fact that I can't justify the expense of a new fork, rims, and tires at this point in time. By going to 26" wheels, despite their shortcomings, I can use what I already have for components.

PVD, can you clarify what the difference is between ground trail and mechanical trail?


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

MichauxYeti said:


> The specs (axle-crown, offset) are from SRAM's website.


OK, so when you sit on the bike the fork is going to sag about an inch, the head and seat angles are going to get about a degree steeper, and the bottom bracket is going to be about 3/8" lower than as drawn. You need to design your frame around that sagged fork height, which will be whatever SRAM says minus about 30% of the fork's travel. That way what you design is actually what you ride.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

30% sag is good. Some people use 25%, but I don't think the front end hooks up as well when going fast.

Ground trail is an imaginary number that means nothing. Mechanical trail is the lever which the front end acts against the ground with. Bike CAD has a button for it. see: http://www.pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=Mechanical_Trail


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

brent878 said:


> I have a TIG at home but I am new to welding. I probalby won't enter the contest but how long would it take a beginner welder to do a bike frame? I am guessing that even if I won 6 months would be hard to make a bike frame for the first time. I always seem to under estimate the time of my projects and I am talking about mostly working on weekends. How long does it ususally take a person to make there first frame if they only worked on weekends? And by beginner welder I mean I know how to weld but I don't have a ton of projects under my belt and my welds are strong and penetrating but don't look as pretty as an experienced welder. And of course it takes me longer or more pratice welds than an experienced welder.


Heck it took us dang near 6 mos to learn how to weld properly. That being said, there *were* 3 of us all fighting over the torch, and we were (obviously) still learning "part time" too.

Walt, great idea you've got going on here. I'd (we) love to help in any way. We're leaving for the NAHBS tomorrow morning but I'll check the thread when I get back. Maybe email you with some ideas.
CJB


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## gotdirt (Jan 17, 2006)

*chad's bike*

*serendipity strikes*.
wow, talk about good timing... i never realized this forum even existed here on MTBR, and the first thread i see seems to be directed at me! 

consider this my "application essay".

my story:
*i love bikes*. the one constant in my life (just turned 40 years old). as a kid in the '70's, i'd take them apart to see how they worked. can't tell you how many ball bearings i lost down the driveway cracks-- after soaking/cleaning in a coffee can of gasoline (leaded of course, and no gloves)! i remember taking apart my old bendix/coaster hub and then reassembling w/ one or two of the internal plates intentionally left out to create a psuedo/partial freewheel (yeah, i thought i was pretty cool). 

bought my first MTB in 1986 and have been smiling ever since. sadly though i put the tools away as a kid, figuring i'd leave that work to the professionals. that is, until last spring...

just before christmas in 2005 my wife & i lost a baby boy, chad, to stillbirth. biking was (is) my salvation from grief. recalling those fond memories in the garage as a kid, for christmas 2006 i asked 'santa' to bring me a bike stand, a toolkit, and lennard zinn's bible. for my 39th b-day i got lucky and scored my "dream bike" --the one that was alway$ out of reach when new ('96 _bontrager ti lite_)-- and thought it would make a perfect candidate for a spring project to lift my spirits. over the course of those next few months, i'd retreat down to the basement after my wife & kids went to bed, and like some kind of zen therapy, i'd find solace in the process of tearing that frame completely down (i'm talking even the brake levers) and then rebuilding it, bit by bit, into a rigid 96'er. in fact, just about the only thing i didn't do myself was to have a custom fork made for it-- coincidentally, by the man himself (thanks walt).

i found immense satisfaction working w/ my hands, doing the work i'd been paying others to do for the last dozen years or so. and speaking of documentation, here are just a few photos i took strictly for my own benefit:



















(ain't that a beautiful fork? and for the record, yes i wised up and decided against the mongo bar-ends)









so as i mentioned i recently turned 40 and have decided that this year i want to build a bike for chad. yes, i would most definitely ride it, as would hopefully someday my 7-year-old daughter, and then my 4-year-old son when they're old enough-- but it would always be their little brother's bike. i'm thinking a 650b hardtail, steel, w/ sliding dropouts "just in case" (in case this singlespeed fad is still around in 10 years ).

back to the issue of timing-- as walt can attest, i actually just sent him a note about a week ago, inquiring about whether i should learn TIG or fillet-brazing. how serious am i? i'm contemplating selling my beloved _intense tracer_ sad in order to fund a 2-week stint out at UBI. i just picked up the _welder's handbook_ at home depot, as well as a worn copy of _the new UTP welding guide_ (1996). heck, just from this thread tonight i've already learned of a few useful things: bikeCAD, and the paterek manual. (wow, that ain't cheap!)

for further consideration:

i'm self-employed (contract work), which is good and bad. good, because i can set my own schedule (which would definitely include framebuilding time); bad, because as my professional projects ebb & flow i typically don't have any "discretionary" funds to spend on bike projects. however, as a bonus: i work in digital video production, so i could potentially "enhance" the documentation aspect of this endeavor. :yesnod:

i'm a newbie. i have maybe 10 minutes of time on a MIG welder (i designed a rear bumper for my jeep, and had a neighbor do the bending/welding, so i got to play on some scrap). i loved it, and dare i say i had decent technique for a hack. 

torch access. my dad has an oxyacetylene setup i could use for brazing. he's already said i could bring it over to the house for an extended stay (told him of my plans just last weekend-- again, timing).

i've got home-court advantage... i'm about 30 minutes away from _waltworks global headquarters_. no shipping D), and better yet, if i get stuck along the way i could potentially drive up and stick my head in your door (w/ a cold six'er of pale ale in hand) for some advice from the master. (how's that for sucking up?)

anyway, that's my story. i knew there was a reason i clicked on f=182 this evening. in closing, if chosen, i promise not to use so many smileys in the write-up.


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## gotdirt (Jan 17, 2006)

*just a few more...*




























g'night.


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

dr.welby said:


> OK, so when you sit on the bike the fork is going to sag about an inch, the head and seat angles are going to get about a degree steeper, and the bottom bracket is going to be about 3/8" lower than as drawn. You need to design your frame around that sagged fork height, which will be whatever SRAM says minus about 30% of the fork's travel. That way what you design is actually what you ride.


I used the free version of BikeCad to draw up that frame. I accounted for 25% sag which has worked very well for me in the past.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

gotdirt said:


> how serious am i? i'm contemplating selling my beloved _intense tracer_ sad in order to fund a 2-week stint out at UBI.


I love hearing about people selling extra bicycles to get tools or education on building them. Definately sell your stuff and take the class.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

pvd said:


> I love hearing about people selling extra bicycles to get tools or education on building them. Definately sell your stuff and take the class.


I'll definatley keep you folks posted on what it's like at UBI, I fly out Saturday. Didn't sell any equipment,per se, but did have to take out a loan to pay for a huge chunk of it. Staying at the on site hostel which helps. Hope they let me cook mac and cheese and make pb&j's out the....:thumbsup:


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Gabe, everyone is welcome to whatever opinion he has here in Internetland. Just to balance things out, I want to say that I`m glad the contest doesn`t have geo-political boundaries.

Walt and Livewire, I`m not ready to roll my own yet, but I need to say thank you for doing this. By the way, will the tubes you send out be Schraeder or Presta?


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

rodar y rodar said:


> Gabe, everyone is welcome to whatever opinion he has here in Internetland. Just to balance things out, I want to say that I`m glad the contest doesn`t have geo-political boundaries.
> 
> Walt and Livewire, I`m not ready to roll my own yet, but I need to say thank you for doing this. By the way, will the tubes you send out be Schraeder or Presta?


This is all Walt, he is THE man:thumbsup: , I just thought I'd offer up the lugs just in case there were guys who were daunted by fillet brazing/tig but would otherwise want to put their hat in the ring.


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## gotdirt (Jan 17, 2006)

Live Wire said:


> I just thought I'd offer up the lugs just in case there were guys who were daunted by fillet brazing/tig but would otherwise want to put their hat in the ring.


...so my naivety is showing (fwiw i'm only on the first chapter of the welder's handbook ), but if you use lugs aren't you still brazing the joint where the tube/lug intersects?


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

gotdirt said:


> ...so my naivety is showing (fwiw i'm only on the first chapter of the welder's handbook ), but if you use lugs aren't you still brazing the joint where the tube/lug intersects?


Yes but not in a fillet, the interstitial space between the OD of the tube and ID of the lug will fill with the brass or silver once molten through capillary action. Just like sweating copper tubing in plumbing, but higher temp.


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## ong (Jun 26, 2006)

Yes, you're brazing that, but it's more of a slip joint than a butt joint -- capillary action wicks silver (or brass) through the lug and fills the whole narrow space, so a lot of the strength comes from the long join between the lug and tube. The filler material should reach the actual join between the tubes, too. Or that's my understanding, at least!

Edit: Beat me to it, On-One!


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

rodar y rodar said:


> Gabe, everyone is welcome to whatever opinion he has here in Internetland. Just to balance things out, I want to say that I`m glad the contest doesn`t have geo-political boundaries.
> 
> Walt and Livewire, I`m not ready to roll my own yet, but I need to say thank you for doing this. By the way, will the tubes you send out be Schraeder or Presta?


Dunlop.
.
.
.
.
.
.


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## BrooklynMachine (Sep 4, 2007)

This thread is going to burn out our monitor we'll be refreshing it so much. Great idea, Walt.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Hopefully I'm not stepping out of bounds here, but I vote for GotDirt. I kind of know who he is, I've met him on a couple of group rides and I can tell you he is not afraid to use his face when conquering difficult trail obstacles. He's also been bugging me about framebuilding for a while so he's obviously motivated, and if he gets in a bind, he's local enough to me to get some help if he _really_ needs it. He's also a picture/video guy so he should have the documentation part down. Sounds like the perfect victim to me!


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## jgwright (Nov 2, 2007)

*Application from John Wright*

Hi there everyone. I guess I'm a little late to jump in the ring here, but I would be kicking myself for years if I didn't at least apply. So I'm joining the fray, and may the best man or women win. My name is John Wright, I am 21 years old, and I live and ride in Santa Cruz, CA. 
Walt, I am a good match for this offer. I love bikes and ride everywhere. I have not ridden anywhere in a car (or bus or train or plane or boat, except a sailing trip) for a year, and don't plan on starting any time soon. I try to ride as much as possible, mostly road and commute riding, but I also ride cyclocross, cross coutry and technical/steep/big hit trail riding. I am currently in school studying Physics at UCSC (same as Keith Bontrager), but am applying to transfer to study mechanical engineering at Cal Poly, as this field relates more directly to bicycle design. I am taking classes in engineering drawing, CAD, and statics engineering, and I feel that I could apply all of these to framebuilding. I am a complete begginer when it comes to welding, metalworking, and framebuilding, although I have repeatedly read the Paterek Manual. I start my first O/A welding class today. Recently I found an open access shop that offers instruction and access to all the neccesary machinery and tools to complete this project(Tech Shop in Menlo Park, a good commute from SC, but still close enough). This includes welding equiptment, milling machines, powder coating equiptment, and all the other power and hand tools neccesary. Because my experience is limited and I do not own or work in a shop, if I am chosen I will be able to document the process of a true novice using the resources available to them to undertake and complete the process of building a frame, rather than someone with extensive experience in metalwork taking on a different type of project.
School takes up all my time during the year, but I will have time to undertake and complete this project over this coming summer (I would probably work on the design during the year and try to be ready for fabrication by summer). Also, my good friend is studying photography and would be able to take great pictures of the whole process. I am a proficient writer and would be able to document all the unforseen difficulties and mistakes, as well as progress, that I am sure to make along the way in a journal and would love to share my experience with anyone who is a beginner considering undertaking a similar project. I am eager to start leaning the craft of framebuilding and an offer like this seems like a perfect opportunity.
As far as the bike I want to build, I was thinking of a rugged 700c touring frame with slightly upright geometry and clearance for 29 inch mtb tires. Something that is light and comfortable enough for century rides, commutes across town, and commutes across the state, but is also capable (with a change of tires) of Santa Cruz trail riding. I am thinking sliding dropouts and disk mounts (as well as cantilever mounts), so I can run it as a single speed if I want. The idea is to have one bike ready to take me anywhere I want to go, so I never need a car again. I think oversized lugs would be great for this project. I would also like to make a porteur style front rack, a standard touring rear rack, fenders, and hopefully a straight blade brazed fork to go with it. I know this plan is slightly ambitious but I feel that this would be an incredibly useful and fun bike and that I would learn volumes from the process. If it turns out to be too ambitious for a first attempt (which it very well might) I can scale the project back by saving the racks, fenders, and fork for a later date and just focussing on the frame.
Well Walt, here I am, a genuine blank slate with a lot of ambition. I may not have the most compelling story, but I am a hard worker and if you give me the chance I will do everthing in my power to assure that first, this project will be completed, second, that the result will be benificial to both myself and others with framebuilding aspirations, and third, that you will not regret giving me this opportunity. If anyone has any questions about me or the bike (or any other comments or suggestions) I am eager to answer them on this board or call me at (925)330-2536. Thanks and good luck to everyone.
-John Wright


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## hokie77 (Jan 29, 2008)

Alright Walt, I'll bite. If you're looking for a rookie, I'm your man. This is my first post here, I've chosen to be a lurker until I either have something useful to contribute or a question which hasn't already been asked. Anyhow, I'm an engineering student at Virginia Tech but I'm taking a semester off right now. (Engineering Calculus is not second nature when returning to school at 30 years old...ughhh.) However, returning to school at my age shows that when I am determined, I follow through. The bike would be for myself as I wouldn't feel comfortable putting someone else on my first frame. My plan is to use lugs and "Bernzo-braze" using Oxy/Mapp and silver solder. We see lots of people using proper welding equipment and jigs, and I've seen people talk about Home Depot torches and which ones work/don't work. But I haven't found a documentary of an average Joe building a frame without the expensive tools and setup. I'd like to show that it's possible to build a bike with inexpensive tools and show the trials and tribulations associated with these methods. I've read that several people have brazed frames with lugs using nothing more than MAPP torches and ridden them for years. I would plan on building a mountain bike with a XC fork and rigid tail, nothing fancy or innovative , that's a job for the experienced experts. I would be professional with my work and show details of how everything came together. I will also be prompt and complete the job by the deadline as part of the agreement. I have some friends that work in a bike shop for the final frame prep and we have a bike coop which we use to "recycle" bikes and parts. 

In the end, I'd love to have this opportunity and would do the job to the best of my ability. At any rate, the gesture you have made here is incredibly kind and I hope the winner truly appreciates this jumpstart in building. May the best man/woman win, and hello to everyone here at the forum. Y'all will be hearing more from me in the future but I haven't wanted to waste people's time with stupid question when I can read myself. Good luck to all the entrants.

Aaron B.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*An FYI to everyone on sliding dropouts*

Just so everyone knows, I won't be providing any paragon dropouts, regardless of who wins the tubes - the Paragons are stainless steel and introduce a whole slew of new problems to building a frame. And they're very, very expensive. You're more than welcome to buy a set from Paragon, of course, but the dropouts I provide will have to be something simpler and easier to work with.

Please keep in mind my earlier point about not trying to build your dream bike on the first try. 

One week to go!

-Walt



jgwright said:


> As far as the bike I want to build, I was thinking of a rugged 700c touring frame with slightly upright geometry and clearance for 29 inch mtb tires. Something that is light and comfortable enough for century rides, commutes across town, and commutes across the state, but is also capable (with a change of tires) of Santa Cruz trail riding. I am thinking sliding dropouts and disk mounts (as well as cantilever mounts), so I can run it as a single speed if I want. The idea is to have one bike ready to take me anywhere I want to go, so I never need a car again. I think oversized lugs would be great for this project. I would also like to make a porteur style front rack, a standard touring rear rack, fenders, and hopefully a straight blade brazed fork to go with it. I know this plan is slightly ambitious but I feel that this would be an incredibly useful and fun bike and that I would learn volumes from the process. If it turns out to be too ambitious for a first attempt (which it very well might) I can scale the project back by saving the racks, fenders, and fork for a later date and just focussing on the frame.
> -John Wright


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## jgwright (Nov 2, 2007)

Hey Walt. You probably have a very good point about not using fancy stainless steel dropouts, or really any other stainless steel parts (I hear the stuff is hard to work with and a good way for a beginner to embarass themself). Axe those from the plan, I'll stick with something easier to work with, and cheap enough that if I ruin a part it is not the end of the world. In fact, for the sake of simplicity I think it would be easier to go without disk brakes altogether. Plain old horizontal dropouts should then be appropriate, and I should have no problem running v-brakes or cantilevers.
As far as the rest of this bike being a complicated "dream bike" I don't think that is generally the case. The frame I am describing is really just a lugged all-terrain frame, built for 700c wheels, cantilever brakes, with mounts for racks and fenders, and tire clearance for knobbed mtb tires (around 2 inches). As I said before, I would like to build additional items for this frame, but I would disregard these and focus solely on successfully completing the frame and providing extensive documetation of the process first, as this should be more than enough of a challenge. I realize that any project of this type is a lot of work, but I don't think the bike I have described (w/o fancy dropouts or even disc mounts) should present much additional difficulties than the most basic of frames (which enevitably would still present a lot of diificuties).
Walt, I really appreciate the feedback, and I take your suggestions seriously. I would appreciate any of the framebuilders here posting suggestions and critiques. I have obviously never done this, so critique and advice from an experienced professional is probably the only way I can know what I am trying to get myself into. If you have any more advice I am all ears. If you think the project I have outlined is still to ambitious for a beginner let me know and I will scale it back more. If you say jump, I say how high. And if you give me this opportunity I will make sure that this project is worth everone's time and generosity.
Thanks to all,
-John Wright


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## Redwood078 (Dec 21, 2005)

I'll throw my cycling cap in the ring too. I'm Bill Connell, 39 years old, i live in St. Paul, MN. I've done some 24-hour and cross-country mountain bike racing in the past and cyclocross for the past 3 years in addition to commuting by bike for the past 5 years (after a couple of years off when my kids were born). Bikes are a huge part of my life. I've never worked in a bike shop, but I love to fix bikes, and when i can i work with a neighbor who recycles/fixes and gives away around 200 bikes a year. I fix friends and neighbor's bikes for free or barter just to keep them riding. I like to build my own wheels and just tinker with different bike configurations.

I've been interested in getting into metalwork for the last couple of years, and just a few months ago my dad gave me a small o/a kit that i've been practicing with over the winter. It's great how the old high school metal shop skills come back (it had been 20 years since i held a torch). My plan was to build some bike racks first to get a good feel for the torch and filet work before moving on to a full frame, but the chance at a free set of tubes would definitely motivate me to accelerate that practice. This would be my first frame.

If i got these tubes, the bike i build would be for myself - i wouldn't want someone else to risk riding my first frame. It would be a singlespeed 29'er, fully rigid (uncorrected), and probably lugged. The goal would be to build something in the same vein as my beloved Bridgestone MB; light, simple and quick. The fork would probably be built around one the new MTB crowns from either Bob Brown or Kirk Pacenti (assuming the kit doesn't include fork parts). I would most likely have the frame powdercoated clear when finished just to be able to see the work i did.

Why do i want to build this frame? I've always liked to build my own things. I have several pieces of furniture in the house that i've built myself; my gift to my first child was a cradle that i designed and built myself. I also make soap, occasionally sew clothes and cook from scratch. Just last weekend I brazed together some mounting brackets for a new kitchen shelf.

It's also the next kind of bike i'd buy for myself, if/when i can afford to buy a bike. I only own one mountain bike (a 1990 MB4, bought new) and i love riding singlespeed/fixed on the street. I also like versatile bikes, and this could easily morph from dirt bike to commuter to gravel racer (a race i'll be in, and the organizer rides a Waltworks!) as needed.

Some other qualifications/considerations:

as a single dad with alternating weekends, i'll have good blocks of time to dedicate to the project
i have a digital camera, an active weblog and a journalism degree, along with work experience writing technical documentation
i have local framebuilder friends i can use for reference if i get stuck, but would otherwise be doing this project completely on my own, with hand tools and my own torch and equipment
i'm motivated - i've been practicing brass filet joints in my garage in 15 degree weather this winter just to get some torch time in

Thanks for this chance, Walt. No matter who is chosen for this project, it will be great to have another resource online for beginning frame builders.

(edit: sorry to make this my first post here, i'm a lurker here and other forums and long-time member of the BOB list, no time to keep up with them all!)


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## tomdog (Feb 3, 2005)

*Great Contest*

Walt, great contest. I just finished my first frame, so I guess that disqualifies me from entering. I starting out with a dream 29er frame with an ActionTech fork. Then I realized I needed to be more realistic and made a regular 29er. I put a Walt fork on it. It's far from perfect (I freehanded it), but it rides straight and I can call it my own creation. I am excited to see how this contest progresses. I wish I would have documented my build a little better:


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## ong (Jun 26, 2006)

Hey, TomDog... The bike looks great! I'd love to see some close-up pictures of the joins, if you have any. Did you leave them unfiled, or was this just a test build?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

What's up with the tubes?


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

I've decided that I am building a frame this spring, regardless of whether I win this tubeset from Walt. It will be a 650B hardtail built up with a Fox Float 100RLC fork, SRAM X.0 drivetrain, Avid Juicy Ultimate brakes, and Stans wheels. I'm going to race this bike in the Brian Head Epic at the end of August.

I've decided on a 38mm downtube and 28.6mm top and seat tubes. The finished frame will be powder-coated in a gloss white and have vinyl decals. The geometry is not yet set in stone, but it's getting close to the final dimensions. I've been using the free version of BikeCAD to do the layouts.

PVD, the free version of BikeCAD won't allow "normal trail" but I found a definition for it and calculation... trail = normal trail / cos HT angle and it works out to 1.16". In all honesty, I have no idea what this means without a point of reference from other frames I've ridden.

Here's my vision:


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## jgwright (Nov 2, 2007)

Hey Michaux, that looks like an awesome design, and props to your decision to build your frame no matter what. I think what PVD was saying about trail is this: ground trail is the distance between the point where the steering axis intersects the ground and the point of ground contact of the front wheel. Mechanical trail is the the perpendicular distance from the steering axis to the ground. Mechanical trail is the legth of the lever arm through which ground forces exert torques on the steering axis. The longer this lever arm the greater the torques ground forces will exert on the steering. For this reason mechanical trail is a more important determinant of handling characteristics than ground trail, which isn't really that useful for describing the interaction between the ground and the steering assembly.
Mechanical Trail=(Wheel Radius)cos(HT angle) - (fork offset)
If you look at a picture (like your sweet bike CAD drawings) that equation should make sense. Using this you should be able to calculate the MT of various bikes with which you are familiar. Less MT, more maneuverable handling, less stable at speed. More MT, more stable at speed and less maneuverable. Two bikes can have the same Mech Trail and different ground trail, meaning that the ground will interact with the steering column in the same way even though the ground trail is diff. (the bike will still feel different though, as other factors that determine how the bike rides would be different i.e. HT angle and fork offset. the point is the steering would behave similarly).
Hope the bike turns out great michaux!
p.s. I think that all that is right but if I made a mistake somewhere in there or something i said just doesn't make sense anyone please let me know. 
3 days Left!!!


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Walt, I am thrilled to have the opportunity to accept this challenge from you. I'm sorry to get in late, I just signed up on this forum last week and saw this post. I know that not only could I get this done, but I'm confident that it would be a very ridable frame and I'd be excited to get started.

My name is Jay and I love bikes. Who on here doesn't? However, I do all my own maintenance and build wheels for several of the local racers in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. I also build for a local shop (one that happens to rep Waltworks--feel free to call Boyd to check on me) so I know who you are even though you most likely don't know me. Often, folks say that wheel building is the Holy Grail of bicycle maintenance and I suppose it is in the "maintenance" aspect. To me, building my own frame would be the Holy Grail and it's something I've wanted to do for some time.

My project would be simple, a steel 29er single speed. I've been single speeding for a while, I enjoy my geared bike too, but after building up a new 29er fully with gears, I've decided I'd like a new steel SS, hard tail of course. Building my own would be very exciting, so I'd happily accept the challenge should you choose me.

That said, I'd hope you would guide me through the process. I'm sure that I'll have very little problem fitting the tubing and wouldn't need much assistance. I have TIG welded in the past and even welded 4130 tubing for a project in college. I'm certainly not a great welder, but I can make the joints stick--they just aren't pretty. So on the assembly, I think I'm set.

What I'd want guidance for is the process of the frame design. I can't imagine finding a better opportunity to work with someone such as "Walt of Waltworks". If you could assist, even if it's simply mark-ups of a drawing, I'd be all over this. Not only would I learn how to build a frame, I hope to learn how to design my frame to fit me. This is 90% of my motivation to do this. Having you sign off on my geometry or having the opportunity for you to walk me through changes really would be a special thing, perhaps once in a lifetime from a recognized builder. I promise not to take up too much of your time, but I'd sure hope you could spend a little time with me on this.

My background is now in Sales but have my BS in Mechanical Engineering. I am very hands on though and not the "typical engineer" that is all book smarts and no real life experience. The Sales direction has left me wanting to do "engineering projects" for fun and this would be great. I'm well versed in CAD both 2D and 3D. I have experience with metal lathes and mills and potentially have access to them for this project. However, I'd prefer to stay away from them if possible from this project as I'd rather see it completed such that "anyone could do it". Here is an example (did it in about 3 hours this afternoon with a package that can be downloaded for free and the PDF Shawn sent me before he built it) of my current Soulcraft 26" SS. It's a Plowboy with a 19.5" seat tube that Shawn built about 18 months ago. I realize that I've just gone with symmetric chainstays, I was in a hurry to get this finished. I cut some corners on the dropouts as well and left off the disc tab. I've attached the Side and ISO of the frame as well as a built up picture. Note that the XTR Cranks have been "modified" on my drill press in the garage. And, yes, that is a long head tube. This is one of the things that appeals to me about 29ers is that they get me more upright and in a more "traditional" looking frame.


























To give you an idea on my documentation of the XTR crank modifications, please review the following thread. It was more of a joke than anything, but I think I'd easily be able to document this project if I took it seriously.
https://dirtdawgs.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=9326

In conclusion:

Working with you on this would be over the top cool
I have suitable experience with a TIG torch
I have a strong desire to not only build my own frame, but do so ASAP
This will be easy for me to document from start (in the computer) to finish (welded metal)

Thanks for the consideration and best of luck to everyone.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Last call!*

Y'all have got about 15 hours (that is, until I wake up from my Nyquil-induced stupor tomorrow - having the flu sucks!) to submit your entry. I'll be making a decision sometime around 10am mountain time tomorrow.

Soon the *real* fun will begin!

-Walt


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## eporemba (Oct 26, 2005)

*I'm in.*

Count me in Walt. I love bikes. I have always loved bikes. I love to look at bikes, think about bikes, read about bikes, talk about on bikes, work on bikes and last but not least, I love to rides bikes. I don't care if they are mountain bikes, road bikes, unicycles or single speeds. I love bikes. There is nothing in the whole world like new bike, nothing.

When I was growing up my brother and I would "restore" bikes. We would take our "stingrays" apart, spray them with a can of spray paint and then put them back together again. We did BMX racing and mountain biking long before they had names or special bikes. We rode bikes to school from elementary on up through college. When I turned sixteen I chose a new ten speed over my dad's used Buick. While in college I took a sculpture class and "sort of" learned how to do some very simple welding. I liked welding because of its permanence as compared to glue, nails or screws. I recall my art teacher calling the bicycle a "functional sculpture" and that wasw long before the cool newer frame materials with exotic designs and wild graphics

I can build a bike but making a frame is really creating the bike and that would be not only be a challenge but a rewarding accomplishment. I would to try and make the frame for my wife. I would attempt a very simple, rigid, 26er, single speed mountain bike with cantilever brakes and horizontal drop-outs. My wife would not care how nice the welds were done or if the bike handled well or even if it fit properly. She would be happy that I made it for her and it would likely earn me a few extra "kitchen passes" which would mean more time on my own Waltworks single speed (suck up).

I not only like the idea of learning how to build the frame but documenting the process as well. My digital camera and internet computer skills are limited and I would welcome the challenge of developing those skills as well. If I am unable to complete the frame in the six months time period I will pay for the tubes or pass them on to someone else.

Ed


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## gotdirt (Jan 17, 2006)

*g'night & good luck*



DWF said:


> Hopefully I'm not stepping out of bounds here, but I vote for GotDirt. I kind of know who he is, I've met him on a couple of group rides and I can tell you he is not afraid to use his face when conquering difficult trail obstacles. He's also been bugging me about framebuilding for a while so he's obviously motivated, and if he gets in a bind, he's local enough to me to get some help if he _really_ needs it. He's also a picture/video guy so he should have the documentation part down. Sounds like the perfect victim to me!


thanks for the vote of support DWF...
so you saw my little spill, eh? nothing like a faceplant against granite. :eekster:

"victim" eh? well whoever it ends up being, i'm looking forward to the results. just got off a (delayed) flight back to CO-- luckily had my welder's handbook w/ me for some light reading (who knew there were so many kinds of rod?!).

time for sleep (and dreams of tubes, brazing torches, and metal files...).


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Walt-

Once a decision is made, it would do the project well to organize it's discussion into a series of stickies... like "Goal/Scope", "Design", "Tooling", "Welding/Brazing Setup and practice", "Actual Construction", "Finishing and Final Machining". It could be in a Pt1, Pt2, Pt3... type of format. The key would be to get it all up at once since a full vision for the project is required from the begining.

This way each thread can stay fairly focused on each aspect of the project and keep the discussion very specific.

Then a final thread can be made for the full project without all the discussion clutter.

My wiki is constructed in a way that I can break down each element in a section, but a message board is not the same animal.


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

The suspense is killing me. I'm sure my boss would rather not know that I'm sitting at my desk hitting refresh on this thread every two minutes as the time approaches.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*We have a winner!*

I feel like the JV basketball coach here - guys, you're all winners, etc, etc. But one of you is more of a winner (in this case) than all the others:

Our free tubing winner (victim?) is GOTDIRT. Congratulations!

I'm not going to go into specifics of why I decided on Gotdirt, but suffice to say that his application was among the best, and he's local enough to me that he can come grab the tubes in person. The local aspect broke about a 5-way draw with many of the other excellent entries - I think that most of you who entered would do a great job.

If you are one of the folks who entered but did not win, and you'd still like to get some tubes, you're more than welcome to purchase some from from any of the many sources found online - inexpensive tube kits can be found for around $70, which really isn't that big of an investment. If you'd like to get some from me, along with some feedback on which tubes might be most appropriate for your project, please contact me via EMAIL (not PM!) and I'll be happy to give you a below-market-price one-time deal. I'm also happy to provide practice scraps to anyone who wants them for the cost of shipping, just contact me.

Congratulations to Gotdirt - now get in touch with me to come get some tubes and get started!

-Walt


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## jgwright (Nov 2, 2007)

Hey, just so everybody knows Walt posted the result in another thread.
edit: and on this one. Sorry, for some reason my computer is not showing any new posts on this thread.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Walt said:


> tube kits can be found for around $70
> 
> I'm also happy to provide practice scraps to anyone who wants them for the cost of shipping, just contact me.


Congrats Mr. GotDirt.

I'll take you up on that offer after we get some financial issues worked out on the job front. Here is an open ended question which welder would be a good investment for someone who specifically wants to focus on bicycle tubes. Would also love to do a 953 frame as well, but this will be a few years out.


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## jgwright (Nov 2, 2007)

Congratulations Gotdirt! I hope you turn those tubes into one hellavu bike, and I look forward to watching you go through the process. I can't imagine myself being content just to watch, and this contest made me realize how much I really want to do this, so Walt, expect to hear from me soon on ordering a tubeset (and the offer of practice scraps sounds pretty good too). By the way, thanks Walt for the opportunity and the generosity, I really think this is going to be a great project to watch.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Yes, good luck to you as well. I'm looking forward to following this as well.


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## gotdirt (Jan 17, 2006)

*is it too late to change my design?*

may need some more tubing...










D)

thanks again, walt.


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## kint (Jan 26, 2006)

*congratulations*

godirt. since you entered i tried to decide whether i should pullback or not. i have always felt that you should receive the tubes, such a special tubeset should be crafted to a special frame and i guess amongst all applicants your intention is the best. go build chad a real nice bike....

plus i think i disqualified myself with posting my size  ( i read the origin of this whole idea too late ) - and was already thinking of how to extend 10" pieces to a 24 " seattube....



Walt said:


> ... If you'd like to get some from me, along with some feedback on which tubes might be most appropriate for your project, please contact me via EMAIL (not PM!) and I'll be happy to give you a below-market-price one-time deal....


thanks walt - you know i come from tt gtx tubing and i like it. i think i will mail you a suggestion based on your tubes as soon as i found the time to draw my bike. (no need to hurry now  )


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## Ttwo (Dec 29, 2007)

Good on ya gotdirt!! I look forward to watching your build play out. 

Thanks for the consideration Walt  I appreciate it.

I still plan on following through with my build and I will start a thread for it. I am sure I will need assistence and input from the pros. Thanks again Walt


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## mcflan (Feb 5, 2008)

Congrats Dirt! I'll be interested to see the results and the progress! I wish you the best of luck!


Thanks for doing this Walt, hope there is another opportunity at some point!


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

any further info on this? ...gotdirt? did you finish?


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## erol/frost (Jan 3, 2004)

Yeah i wanna know too.


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## gotdirt (Jan 17, 2006)

*D'oh!*

i'm ridiculously tardy w/ this project (heck, i just picked up the tubes from walt a few weeks ago), but i do have a really good reason... which i am unable to divulge just yet. 

i think it will be worth the wait.

(besides, i seem to never get any bike projects done in the summer... i'd rather be riding)

i will most definitely update here.


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## TimWoo (Oct 6, 2007)

Any news yet?


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## BeatAFool (Jan 14, 2008)

I think this project's dead!!! Nothing but fluff!!!



> If they don't build it in 6 months, the tubes ain't free.


Maybe he should send the tubes to someone else??


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Agreed. This has become a joke.

Walt put forward a very good and sensible concept and funded it himself. Gotdirt stepped to the front of the line in front of many others, only to completely wet the bed. It's up to Walt, but if it was up to me someone else would have a finished frame by now.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Don't be too harsh*

A lot can happen in someone's life - it's quite possible that GD has had something come up which is taking up his time.

However, he hasn't done much of a job keeping us up to date, either, and I don't think there's a single picture of any kind of progress anywhere on the forum.

The whole goal here was to have a motivated person who was willing to exhaustively document the process (included the inevitable screwups) post here to provide not only a fun read, but a sort of blueprint for framebuilding from a beginners perspective.

I am going to close this thread and post a new one. I will ask GD to either return or pay for the tubes he has, and I will post a poll so that we can all vote on a new candidate.

-Walt



pvd said:


> Agreed. This has become a joke.
> 
> Walt put forward a very good and sensible concept and funded it himself. Gotdirt stepped to the front of the line in front of many others, only to completely wet the bed. It's up to Walt, but if it was up to me someone else would have a finished frame by now.


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