# Choosing helmets for reducing concussion risk in 2020



## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

A few years ago, there were zero options for someone looking for a mountain bike helmet to reduce the risk of getting a concussion.

Today there's a gazillion different options, but figuring out how to choose among them is far from easy (mainly because the industry still has failed to come up with updated safety certification standards, indefensibly). This thread is my crack at a clear explanation and advice as of the start of 2020.

Short version: my guess is that 6D's ATB-1T Evo helmet [EDIT: or Bell's Super Air, or Bontrager's $300 Blaze Wavecel] is the best available helmet for reducing concussion risk. And my guess is that regular MIPS does not substantially reduce concussion risk.

[Me: just a mountain biker who's tried to follow all this since my own concussion in 2013. No industry affiliations of any sort, but also no engineering or medical training. A nerdy guy who's put some time into this, nothing more. I've owned a TLD A1, Kali Maya v1, Kali Interceptor, and Bell Super DH.]
*
MIPS*

If you're considering a helmet to reduce concussion risk, the first thing to decide is whether you believe in MIPS or not. This much is now clear: if you take a grippy, rubber dummy head with no neck/body, and you strap a helmet firmly to it and then drop it onto a slanted surface and measure the rotational forces on the head, then a helmet with MIPS will score better. So if you believe that test measures real-world safety benefit, then you should buy a MIPS helmet.

We finally have independent testing confirming this by a trustworthy tester (a Virginia Tech lab with an insurance industry group). Their test results are here. (Their methodology detailed here and shown here.) Right now the two top-scoring helmets are the Bontrager Rally MIPS and the TLD A2 MIPS (and 8 of the top 9 are MIPS). So one reasonable option is to just buy one of them.

But not so fast. While VT's testing says that MIPS is the bomb, another body of independent testing says it ain't. Snell did testing in 2018 using a different procedure, using a headform--still bald and grippy, and still with the helmet strapped on tight, but with a neck and a body, instead of just a head bouncing free, like VT and MIPS iteslf use. Snell's testing showed no meaningful benefit from MIPS. More info here.

Assessing this conflict between VT's conclusions and Snell's, the independent Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute concluded:

_
Our conclusion is that this testing by a respected lab, reported by an organization with a distinguished history of consumer-oriented helmet activism, shows that MIPS is not likely to help you in a crash configuration similar to the one tested by Snell. Other lab testing using an unrestrained moving headform with a sticky rubber covering and no neck attached impacting a very rough 45 degree slanted anvil with the straps tight over an inflexible jaw (the configuration MIPS uses) has shown that MIPS does reduce rotational acceleration. But when the head is constrained--as by a neck--MIPS does not perform well. That does not happen in the field, where heads are attached to the body. We still think your helmet, with a normal scalp under it, will move anyway._​
That sounds right to me. While trusting VT's data is appealing to me, and a week ago I was _this _close to buying a Rally MIPS for my next helmet based on their testing, but when it comes down to it I have more faith in Snell's test method than I have in VT's. If MIPS can't show a benefit without a free-bouncing head unconnected to a body, then I have no confidence that MIPS is doing anything.

[To be continued, I hope.]


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

"doesn't help" and "makes worse" are completely different things. Nobody is saying that MIPS makes anything worse. Now, if two different testing methodologies are reporting conflicting results (doesn't help, and does help), my conclusion becomes more or less an average of the two - "might help". I'm going to buy something based on "might help" every single time.

But with that said, my primary consideration for a helmet is the FIT of that helmet on my head. MIPS or not, the helmet is going to work better if it fits.

Now, I know you have a historical agenda on this website against MIPS. While I don't exactly like the way helmets.org presents information, EVEN THEY more or less agree with me



> Despite Snell's research we think the jury is still out on MIPS.


The fact of the matter is that we don't have conclusive information telling us that any of these tests are less informative than the others. They're all telling us something. The simpler your test, the more you're able to isolate factors. Make your test more complicated and the greater the risk that your results are confounded by the extra variables you've added. There's value to doing that sometimes, but it doesn't necessarily invalidate the simpler tests with simpler models. Discrepancies between the results simply mean that more testing is needed to figure out why those discrepancies exist.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

I agree with you that MIPS might help. If I were choosing between MIPS and non-MIPS versions of the same helmet I'd pick the MIPS. And to me the fact that VT chose the methodology they did counts for something. My views have shifted somewhat on all this, and may continue to shift as more info comes out.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

*WaveCel*

Bontrager (ie Trek) released helmets with a new concussion-reduction technology last year, which they call WaveCel. Their promo page is here, their WaveCel helmets, including the $300 mtb Blaze are here. They describe it thus: "WaveCel is a collapsible cellular material that's incredibly effective at preventing head injuries caused by certain cycling accidents. It works by going through a three-step change in material structure on impact to absorb energy before it reaches your head." In photos it looks like it could be squishy, but actually its surprisingly rigid.

Bontrager claims that WaveCel helmets are "up to 48x more effective than traditional foam helmets in protecting your head from injuries caused by certain cycling accidents*." Their study shows an concussion risk of 59% for EPS helmets, 34% for MIPS, and 1.2% for Wavecel. And they claim all this is based on tests using a head + neck model, which is encouraging. The concept is reminiscent of Smith's Koroyd straws. The mesh covers front and back (unlike many MIPS helmets that have nothing but foam in back) plus a breakway accessory mount.

Does it work? Impossible to know yet. The 48x claim is from a study done by its inventors. It scores quite well (but below a handful of plain-vanilla MIPS helmets) in the VT tests. MIPS and Smith both fired back against Trek's performance claims. BHSI says they sent a WaveCel helmet to a lab for testing and it did "very good but not amazing," not quite as good as a Leatt DBX 2.0.

Is it expensive? Oh yes. MSRP for the Blaze is $300, the most expensive halfshell mtb helmet I'm aware of. That's absurd. But at least comes with 30-day unconditional returns and one-year free crash replacement.

It's entirely possible that WaveCel helmets are the best concussion-reducing helmets available today. It looks promising, and it's encouraging to see a big player like Trek finally trying to set the pace. If $300 for a trail helmet isn't a dealbreaker-- almost _double_ the price of most of its competitors--then give it a look.


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## RichardWad (Sep 24, 2019)

I've been happy with the Bell Super DH protection.

Ive also been happy with the TLD Stage, but havent crashed it yet. 

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

*Single-shell designs*

One of the main strategies for reducing concussion risk is to make helmets "softer." EPS foam is relatively rigid, which is good for reducing skull-fracture risk from big impacts but not good for reducing concussion risk from smaller ones. Traditional MIPS is a slip plane that's designed to reduce rotational forces, but it doesn't try to do anything to make the helmet softer to reduce concussion-level direct-impact force. So, many helmet makers have worked to find technologies that do both.

(Aside: my guess is that softness is at least as important as angular-force control. I suspect that our natural scalp slip + hair + sweat + imperfect helmet fit + helmet pads + normal strap looseness means that, in the real world, any helmet reduces angular impact forces and thus that regular MIPS provides little additional benefit. You may disagree with my guess; public data to answer it either way is sparse-to-nonexistent.)

Makers have taken two basic approaches to adding softness to bike helmets. (I'm ignoring dual-density foam for now.) One is to start with a traditional helmet--a single foam shell--and put something squishy on the inside where the helmet contacts the rider's head. Those are single-shell designs. The other is to design a helmet with two nested foam shells, an outer one and an inner one, and then sandwich something squishy between the shells. Those are dual-shell designs.

In both designs, the "something squishy" aims to do two things: deflecting under rotational forces and squishing under direct force. Picture a marshmallow, smushed from directly above or smushed from a 45 degree angle.

Here I'm focusing on single-shell approaches, where the squishy element is on the inside of the helmet right against your head. There have been a number of different approaches, including:

- Kali LDL (green lego-looking squishies)
- Leatt Turbines (blue disc-shaped squishies)
- POC Spin (the helmet pads themselves have squishy gel inside, notably in their Race Tectal Spin)
- Fluid Inside (the helmet pads themselves have fluid inside, notably in Fox Rampage fullfaces)*

Compared to dual-shell designs, single-shell designs have 2 big advantages: helmet size and weight. Dual-shell helmets are bigger and heavier, which makes them dorkier looking, less comfortable, and may offset their concussion-reducing benefit (weight increases force, diameter increases leverage). Single-shell designs are basically the same size/weight as conventional helmets.

But single-shell designs have disadvantages, too, although they may be less obvious. The biggest is coverage. If when you crash your helmet slams into your head where there's only EPS, not a squishy, then the fancy tech did you zero good. None of the existing single-shell designs cover the entire inside surface. For example, on the Tectal, the pads don't cover the back or much of the sides, as you can see clearly in these photos. In Kali helmets, the squishy strips are spread around the inside with many gaps. (Photo here.) I own the Kali Interceptor, and, when it comes down to it, I don't have a ton of faith that the LDL will be in the right spot in a crash, and that's why I'm replacing it now.

The other disadvantage I see with single-shell designs is that the safety tech is directly against your bony skull and your nasty headsweat, every ride. All helmet pads wear out from use, but in single-shell designs that same wear could degrade concussion protection. I recently discovered in my Kali that several of the LDL pads had deteriorated into a gross sticky mess without my noticing, and then it took me a while to hunt down replacement pads.

I discussed Trek's $300 WaveCel above. They're single-shell designs too, with the same size/weight benefits. Coverage looks like far less of an issue although I'm unsure about the rim, and I'd guess wear & sweat is less of an issue too. Hence my view that the $300 WaveCel _might _be the safest option available.

So if you're focused on reducing concussion risk, then choosing between a single-shell or double-shell design means guessing at how to balance risks. Which matters more, weight & diameter or squishy-tech coverage?

*EDIT: possibly MIPS SL belongs in this list too. It's another pad solution like Spin and Fluid Inside, made by MIPS and originally exclusive to Specialized, such as the well-regarded Ambush MIPS with ANGi. I say "possibly" because, while it seems similar to the Spin pads, they don't claim that makes the helmet softer, only that it reduces rotational forces like original MIPS only lighter. So hard to say whether it functions like the other pad techs.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Harold said:


> "doesn't help" and "makes worse" are completely different things. Nobody is saying that MIPS makes anything worse. Now, if two different testing methodologies are reporting conflicting results (doesn't help, and does help), my conclusion becomes more or less an average of the two - "might help". I'm going to buy something based on "might help" every single time.


This is where I'm at. I recently slammed my head and body into a ditch hard enough for the impact to break 6 bones. My helmet was dented in a couple of spots where I'm guessing it contacted rocks, with the impact telescoping through the foam and splitting my scalp, requiring a few stitches but no concussion. It was a MIPs helmet. Whether the MIPs made any difference, I don't know, possibly not due to the more direct impact rather than glancing. But I don't believe it made it worse and I'll take the "might help".


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

chazpat said:


> This is where I'm at. I recently slammed my head and body into a ditch hard enough for the impact to break 6 bones. My helmet was dented in a couple of spots where I'm guessing it contacted rocks, with the impact telescoping through the foam and splitting my scalp, requiring a few stitches but no concussion. It was a MIPs helmet. Whether the MIPs made any difference, I don't know, possibly not due to the more direct impact rather than glancing. But I don't believe it made it worse and I'll take the "might help".


You're both stuck in the past.

Four or five years ago, "is MIPS better than nothing?" was the relevant question, because MIPS was the only concussion-safety game in town. But now the relevant question is "is MIPS better than the other technologies trying to reduce concussion risk?"

The answer to that, admittedly, isn't clear. If you believe in the VT testing (and reasonable people do) then the answer is basically yes. If you believe Snell instead (as reasonable people also do), then the answer is probably no.

But, in 2020, the argument that MIPS doesn't hurt and might help is beside the point.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OldManBike said:


> If you're considering a helmet to reduce concussion risk, the first thing to decide is whether you believe in MIPS or not.


It's like 30 extra dollars and they tend to fit me better. I don't need to "believe in MIPS" to think that the research behind it has some validity, they've done a heck of a lot testing & research than I have. I figure it can't hurt so I'll take my chances.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OldManBike said:


> But, in 2020, the argument that MIPS doesn't hurt and might help is beside the point.


I don't think so. Most of the helmets that are available and fit my criteria happen to have mips technology so that's what I'm likely to choose. Trek Wavecell may or may not be superior but for now I don't like the fit and they're a bit heavy. Don't know about Kali because I haven't really checked them out and there's none for sale around here. Anyway, I think the best helmet is the best one you can find that you always wear.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

OldManBike said:


> The answer to that, admittedly, isn't clear. If you believe in the VT testing (and reasonable people do) then the answer is basically yes. If you believe Snell instead (as reasonable people also do), then the answer is probably no.


I don't believe for a second that my only choice is a false dichotomy of choosing one test over the other. As I said before, they're both informative. Whether you draw reasonable conclusions is up to you, and I tend to feel like you're leaping to conclusions that aren't supported, and you ask the wrong questions.

I also don't believe that the true question is "is MIPS better than other technologies trying to reduce concussion risk" either.

Right now, there is no evidence to suggest that one concussion reduction technology is any better than another. In looking at the VT tests (the more controlled between the two you have brought up), not all MIPS or Wavecel helmets consistently ranked better than the others. One Wavecel helmet was #1, and a MIPS helmet was #2. That there were more MIPS helmets on the list overall means that more MIPS helmets were tested. There are other factors not described in the results that play roles in whether an individual helmet scored better than others. Some of them are very onerous to even attempt to test. Also, not all helmets with every possible option were included in the test for various reasons (most of which are more practical ones than any sort of bias).

Most importantly, not every competing technology is available to me to try on for fit at my local stores. I'm just not going to buy a helmet I can't try on for fit first. I'm going to buy what fits me well and what I can try on for fit before I buy. Protective gear like a helmet is not the kind of thing I'm going to buy sight-unseen and then attempt to return if it doesn't fit.

I recently bought a TLD A2 MIPS helmet to replace my Bell Super 2 MIPS. The Bell was okay, but it didn't fit as well as it could have and it was a stuffy helmet. I never tested its concussion risk reduction, but I simply got tired of its less than ideal fit and stuffiness. I had the TLD A2 MIPS on my radar for years because it fit so well and was so much more breathable. That's why I bought it. The VT ratings for the helmet are icing on the cake. Do I think I'll be able to avoid a concussion by wearing the helmet? God no. I'm not a moron. I do think it's better than my previous helmet, and it actually incorporates multiple protective methods that my previous helmet lacked to address different types of impacts.

That, right there, is I think where value lies. Incorporating multiple protective methods/technologies/materials that each has its own strengths to create a complete package that maximizes potential protection.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Harold said:


> That, right there, is I think where value lies. Incorporating multiple protective methods/technologies/materials that each has its own strengths to create a complete package that maximizes potential protection.


I agree 1000%. Getting to that in chapter 93.

Broadly agree with rest of your post too, although my take on fit may differ somewhat (and the current VT rankings are a little different than you describe, but whatever).


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## Spectre (Jan 23, 2004)

My understanding is that the main issue with concussions is that to withstand the higher speed impact specified in typical crash standards, helmets need firmer foam to absorb those higher impact forces, but that same foam does not do well with slowing head movement at a more gradual rate. Using only one density of firmer foam helps reduce the severity of brain injury but is less good at reducing impact velocity at a more gradual rate. It seems to me that MIPS does not resolve that issue.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Spectre said:


> My understanding is that the main issue with concussions is that to withstand the higher speed impact specified in typical crash standards, helmets need firmer foam to absorb those higher impact forces, but that same foam does not do well with slowing head movement at a more gradual rate. Using only one density of firmer foam helps reduce the severity of brain injury but is less good at reducing impact velocity at a more gradual rate. It seems to me that MIPS does not resolve that issue.


My (again, non-expert) understanding is similar but a little different.

My understanding is that there's universal consensus that reducing rotational forces is essential. Whether the different existing designs actually achieve that is hotly debated, but everyone agrees that reducing rotational forces on the brain would reduce the number of concussions.

Many (but not everyone) believe it _also _is important to reduce lower-force direct impacts, what I refer to above as making helmets softer. That's the hard-foam problem you refer to.

No one believes a softer helmet that does nothing to reduce rotational forces is the best solution. MIPS advocates say that a helmet that reduces rotational forces that does nothing to be softer is the right solution. I believe the best solution must address both, and several existing designs seek to do so--the single-shell designs above, and dual-shell designs I'll get to below.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

*Dual-shell designs*

This thread is too long already so I'll try to be more concise.

Dual-shell designs (see #6) offer the flip side of the coin from single-shell designs: bigger and heavier, but better coverage. Dual-shell designs eliminate the question about whether, in a crash, the squishy whatzits are going to be in the right spot, because the _entire _inner helmet surface is suspended by the sandwiched squishies.

Two dual-shell designs:
- 6D ODS, in ATB-1T Evo
- MIPS Spherical, in Bell Air DH, Bell Super DH, Giro Tyrant, etc

I currently own both the dual-shell Super DH and single-shell Kali Interceptor, and, contrary to my own biases, I have much more faith that MIPS Spherical will function as designed in a crash than that Kali's LDL will.

Comparing the two current dual-shell designs, 6D's ODS is a little different from Bell/Giro's MIPS Spherical in a few ways:
1. With ODS, the inner shell is the only thing that touches your head--in MIPS Spherical, the inner shell doesn't cover the lower back of the helmet, from your ears back. 
2. The linear-force squish is much clearer with ODS. With the 6D, when you pinch the inner and outer shells you can feel them move. With Spherical, while the rotational-force slip is obvious, the linear-force squish isn't. 
3. On the 6D, the inner shell is EPS, which is relatively rigid. So all of the softness in the 6D design appears to be in the bumpers. On the Spherical, the inner shell seems to be EPP, which likely is softer than EPS.
4. The 6D is 501g, the Super Air is 421g (both medium per Pinkbike) and the Super Air isn't as big.

I see potential advantages for either design, and I don't have even a guess about which is overall more effective at reducing concussion risk.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

--holy crap you will solve nothing here

--a helmet that fits, and that you want to wear, and fits with cycling, it the one to use

---and -maybe- picking ones from the top of the list of the technical testing reviewers is a better choice than the lowest ones on the list


statements like this:
I have much more faith that MIPS Spherical will function as designed in a crash than that Kali's LDL will.

well, that works for YOU. have you thought of each and every of the 21 trillion ways your head might receive physics education and punishment from the combined variable forces of speed, gravity, inertia, kinetics and the ground or tree or bike or body you slam into ?

but you really don't know 

and will never know, until you conk your head while wearing one. 

and guaranteed, someone somewhere will conk their head in the most advanced helmet in the world and they'll still get a concussion.

so, these type of internet forum arguments are much ho-hum....just don't conk your friggin head in the first place, and if you do, all bets are off despite all your armchair research.


for a helmet to work it has to be: yours, and worn correctly

and also that means affordable

that means it fits your crazy skull shape

that means it is light enough to not make you want to stop riding 
because the helmet is too heavy

so many variables here....you want real answers get a supply of helmets and a supply of virtual monkeys and start tossing them off cliffs, and then do cat scans of the damage...otherwise all these top helmet manufactures actually are trying pretty hard to solve the unsolvable and you can only guess and hope you don't conk your skull in the first place, no matter what you use on the noggin


---
so, you say you want no concussions ? don't leave your bed, ever, and make sure that bed is at the bottom of the deepest salt mine in the most geologically inactive location on the planet...

sorry but I got a big beef with picking apart the tests and studies apples/apples/apples/oranges arguments....


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm troubled by your deep opposition to capital letters.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Maybe his shift key is inoperable.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

*Old tech*

Up until now, I've focused on the various new, high-tech approaches to reducing rotational forces and/or making helmets softer, but there are lots of non-high-tech approaches, too. The designs I trust the most don't just rely on one fancy gizmo: they combine a number of different strategies for reducing concussion risk. Without reliable independent data, for all we know the low-tech stuff is more effective than the gee-whiz stuff.

_Softer foam_
Rigid EPS foam is how helmets meet existing certifications and protect your skull from big impacts. But Kali figured out a clever hybrid solution, dual-density foam (which they market as conehead / Composite Fusion Plus), so that the shell has enough rigid EPS to protect against big hits but also has softer foam to cushion softer, concussion-level hits. (Nerd out here.) The benefit seems obvious, with no apparent downside but cost and even that's modest since they've got several sub-$100 helmets with it. The newer Troy Lee A2 MIPS and some Fox helmets have dual-density foam too. I wish every MTB helmet had it.

_Breakaway attachments_
Almost all MTB helmets have visors. And many of us ride with lights or cameras. In a crash, those do-dads can snag and jerk your head, increasing rotational forces on your brain. So, safer helmets have breakaway attachments for visors and accessories, strong enough to keep them on when you ride but weak enough to separate without snagging when you eat it. Breakaway visor bolts and go-pro mounts aren't as sexy as MIPS or Wavecel, but I wouldn't be surprised if in reality they matter just as much.
_
Helmet shape_
Another factor that can determine whether your helmet slides or snags is the shape of the shell itself. Round and smooth slides better than pointy and edgy. Helmet makers have improved on this front in recent years.
_
Helmet size and mass_
All other things being equal, concussion risk is lower with a lighter, smaller helmet. Just like a heavier hammer is better at driving nails than a lighter one, a heavier helmet will whip your hapless noggin into the rocky earth that much harder than a light helmet will. And a bigger helmet will yank your head harder in a crash, the same way a long prybar works better than a short one. But a shower cap is small and light and it won't help you much in a crash. Size and mass can be a trade-off, as I mentioned above in talking about single- vs. double-shell designs. As consumers, we simply don't have the data to know how to balance the costs and benefits of the different designs. 
_
Fit_
Helmet fit matters too, at least to an extent. If your helmet fits so badly that it bounces around in a crash and leaves useful parts of your head exposed, that's ain't good. But many internet geniuses insist that helmet fit is The Only Thing That Matters By God, and I disagree. If my choice were between a _perfect_-fitting IXS Trigger and a good-enough-fitting Leatt DBX 3.0, for example, I'd take the Leatt in a heartbeat.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

*Everything else*
_
Crash replacement_
Wild unproven keyboard-warrior theory: a non-MIPS helmet with a terrific crash-replacement policy is safer than a MIPS helmet with a "sorry dude buy a new one" replacement policy. Scandalous, I know. But we all know damn well that _nobody _replaces a month-old $150+ helmet after a crash unless the helmet broke so badly that they aren't able to find enough pieces to duct-tape it back together. Unless you're an orthodontist, good crash replacement policies (Kali's is the hands-down best, Bontrager has a decent one too) are a real helmet safety feature.

Oh and besides the obvious benefit, they also give the maker a gold mine of actual crashed helmets to test. Who do you trust more, the company that wants to learn from real-world crash data or the one that doesn't? I was intrigued by POC's Spin and I thought the teal color they had last year was high MTB style, but the lack of a crash-replacement policy was a deal-breaker for me.
_
Venting and comfort_
If you're overheating, you're more likely to crash. If a raging torrent of sweat is pouring into your eyes, you're more likely to crash. If you're distracted by an uncomfortable helmet, you're more likely to crash. And the more you crash, the more likely you are to concuss yo self. So it stands to reason that, all things being equal, a cooler, comfier helmet will be safer. Once again, how that plays out in the real world is anyone's guess.
_
Everything else_
In the wise and wacky words of Don Rumsfeld, past the known unknowns are the unknown unknowns. It would be surprising if we've already identified all the factors that significantly impact concussion risk.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

I hope you've enjoyed my first novel, entitled Principles of Concussion Risk Reduction in MTB Helmets, According to Some Guy. (I skipped the chapter explaining why fullfaces aren't the answer, maybe I'll include it in the 2nd ed.)

Now let's chat about actual helmets. Here, alphabetically, are 11 helmets I think most riders might look at if they were looking for the best helmet for reducing concussion risk:


6D ATB-1T Evo
Bell Sixer
Bell Super Air MIPS
Bontrager $300 Blaze Wavecel
Bontrager Rally MIPS
Fox Flux MIPS 
Giro Tyrant
Kali Interceptor
Leatt DBX 2.0
POC Tectal Race Spin
Specialized Ambush ANGi MIPS
Troy Lee A2 MIPS

None are perfect. Here's a quick look at what I see as the strengths and weaknesses of each, _focusing on concussion prevention_:

*6D ATB-1T Evo
*Good: very promising tech for rotation and softness with no dead spots; 4 stars from VT; breakaway visor
Bad: quite heavy, quite large; no breakaway accessory mount; useless crash replacement policy
*
Bell Sixer*
Good: plain MIPS with what looks like no dead spots; variable density foam of some sort; integrated accessory mount that I assume is breakaway; not big or heavy; crash replacement but it's only a discount not free
Bad: only variable-density foam for softness
*
Bell Super Air MIPS*
Good: very promising tech for rotation, promising tech for softness (inner shell is EPP), very good coverage (probably dead spots on rear half of rim); reportedly good ventilation; breakaway accessory mount, limited crash replacement policy
Bad: somewhat heavy

*Bontrager Blaze Wavecel, which costs $300*
Good: very promising tech for rotation and softness with very good coverage (but dead spots around rim); 5 stars from VT; excellent breakaway accessory mount and visor; one year free crash replacement
Bad: absurdly expensive; somewhat heavy and large; reportedly middling ventilation; can't strap a 2-cell light battery on the back; still mad at Trek about Lance and boost
*
Bontrager Rally MIPS*
Good: current top-rated VT 5 star helmet; excellent breakaway accessory mount; one year free crash replacement; well-reviewed
Bad: plain MIPS so zero softness (disqualifying)

*Fox Flux MIPS *
Good: MIPS plus dual-density foam
Bad: pointy, not VT tested

*Giro Tyrant
*Too ugly to consider, sorry.

*Kali Interceptor*
Good: somewhat promising design for rotation and softness with fair coverage; dual density foam; not heavy or big; breakaway accessory mount and visor; lifetime free crash replacement
Bad: fares unexpectedly badly in VT tests; fit issues

*Leatt DBX 2.0*
Good: promising design for rotation and softness with decent coverage; not heavy or big; breakaway visor
Bad: no breakaway accessory mount, no crash replacement

*POC Race Tectal Spin*
Good: promising design for rotation and softness but poor rear/side coverage; VT 5 stars; not heavy or big; well-reviewed
Bad: no breakaway accessory mount; no crash replacement; apparently discontinued
*
Specialized Ambush ANGi MIPS*
Good: MIPS SL might be better than MIPS for rotation, but poor rear/side coverage; multi-density foam; 5 stars from VT; not big or heavy; especially well-reviewed
Bad: coverage; iffy on softness; lame crash replacement; no breakaway accessory mount; ANGi isn't something I want; expensive; Specialized is evil

*Troy Lee A2 MIPS*
Good: MIPS plus dual-density foam (EPS + EPP, see #29 below); 5 stars from VT; not heavy; limited crash replacement policy ("Troy Lee Designs may assist with the replacement of your helmet involved in a crash by offering a discount off of a new Troy Lee Designs helmet of your choice"; also see #31 below)
Bad: no breakaway accessory mount

*Bottom line*
To me, on balance the best of the bunch are the 6D, the Super Air, and the Wavecel Blaze. The POC and the Leatt are contenders too, especially if you prioritize weight and/or don't carry a light.

But those conclusions flow directly from my conclusions about what is effective and what isn't, everything I explained earlier. Different conclusions about what works will produce different answers about which helmets are most promising, naturally.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

have you tested all these yourself ? 

the answer is no ?

few choices can be made from 3rd hand information, as I know many comments about particular wavecel helmets are contrary to my experiences with them.


ugh, here are the capital letters you so surely desire.

H
T
F 
U


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

127.0.0.1 said:


> have you tested all these yourself ?
> 
> the answer is no ?





OldManBike said:


> [Me: *** A nerdy guy who's put some time into this, nothing more. I've owned a TLD A1, Kali Maya v1, Kali Interceptor, and Bell Super DH.]





127.0.0.1 said:


> few choices can be made from 3rd hand information, as I know many comments about particular wavecel helmets are contrary to my experiences with them.


Do share.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Some further reading:

https://helmets.org/helmet20.htm

https://helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html

https://www.consumerreports.org/bik...elmet-technology-to-help-prevent-concussions/

https://nsmb.com/articles/mips-equipped-helmet-really-necessary/

https://www.bikemag.com/gear/apparel/helmets/bike-helmet-rotational-force/

https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-ge...t-technologies-are-more-alike-than-different/

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/rotational-concussions-and-ldl-real-world-data-kali-helmets-2017.html


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

OldManBike said:


> Wild unproven keyboard-warrior theory: a non-MIPS helmet with a terrific crash-replacement policy is safer than a MIPS helmet with a "sorry dude buy a new one" replacement policy. Scandalous, I know. But we all know damn well that _nobody _replaces a month-old $150+ helmet after a crash unless the helmet broke so badly that they aren't able to find enough pieces to duct-tape it back together. Unless you're an orthodontist, good crash replacement policies (Kali's is the hands-down best, Bontrager has a decent one too) are a real helmet safety feature.


I think that's untrue. I've had a DH helmet that took one decent hit when it was a month old, barely a mark on it but I tossed it. There is probably merit in replacing a helmet every second year, or even annually if you ride often. Sure it costs, and when I was in my twenties and a student I wouldn't.

I don't really get crash replacement policies either. If I smash my helmet and ruin it, but I'm ok, I expect to get a cheap one from the original manufacturer? It did it's job, are the retail prices inflated to cover this?

As for the concussion debate, I think something is better than nothing, if you slam your head hard enough or awkwardly to be concussed, would a different type have mattered? As long as it doesn't result in permanent damage (not to minimize consussion) then most helmets do a good job.


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## wrc2006 (Nov 2, 2007)

OldManBike said:


> *Single-shell designs*In Kali helmets, the squishy strips are spread around the inside with many gaps. (Photo here.) I own the Kali Interceptor, and, when it comes down to it, I don't have a ton of faith that the LDL will be in the right spot in a crash, and that's why I'm replacing it now.


My anecdotal evidence supports this. Knocked myself out in my worst dirt crash this past summer wearing my interceptor. Point of impact was right about where visor connects to shell I area where no LDL strips live. Pretty certain it wouldn't have mattered, but a spot without the tech was what I happened to fall onto. Kali was awesome about the crash replacement process. The interceptor also has dual layer foam, which may or may not have helped me out. According to the RNs, NPs and Athletic Trainers I work with, there's no such thing as a "mild" concussion, but I still felt lucky based on how little of the worse symptoms I experienced. 
Likely going to go back to TLD for this season, but will try on a wavecell helmet before buying. I understand the argument about testing methods, but I'm not giving up mtb, and want to do everything I can to help avoid future concussions. I'll be using the VT results as a helpful guide in what to try on. Also looking for rabbits feet, 4 leaf clovers and winning powerball tickets...


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

wrc2006 said:


> Likely going to go back to TLD for this season, but will try on a wavecell helmet before buying. I understand the argument about testing methods, but I'm not giving up mtb, and want to do everything I can to help avoid future concussions. I'll be using the VT results as a helpful guide in what to try on. Also looking for rabbits feet, 4 leaf clovers and winning powerball tickets...


To me, this is a sound approach. Not quite the same conclusions I've reached, but no less valid. Anyway, here's to avoiding the next one.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Mudguard said:


> I don't really get crash replacement policies either. If I smash my helmet and ruin it, but I'm ok, I expect to get a cheap one from the original manufacturer?


No, not a cheap one--a _free _one. From Kali (lifetime) or Bontrager (one year), that is.



Mudguard said:


> As for the concussion debate, I think something is better than nothing, if you slam your head hard enough or awkwardly to be concussed, would a different type have mattered? As long as it doesn't result in permanent damage (not to minimize consussion) then most helmets do a good job.


Well, a lot of riders see it the same way you do. I believe this view is simple ignorance, and the cause of many, many unnecessarily damaged brains. For your sake I hope I'm wrong.


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

Incorrect on your 'bad'. TLD does have a crash replacement policy, check their site for details. As for 'no breakaway' acc mount, it does not have one, meaning you will have to adhere a light/camera anyway, and it would break away in a crash-i'd also not ever recommend attaching crap to your helmet, ever, but people do it.
Also, clarifying your "dual density" it is worth noting, its not just dual density EPS that a few brands do, A2 and the Stage use a combo of EPP (low speed energy management) and EPS (High speed energy management) which is a patent pending system only found in TLD helmets and proven to test better than nearly every helmet at managing LOW speed and HIGH speed.

TLD a2 and the a1, combined make TLD the only brand to have 2 helmets in the top 5 of the Virginia Tech safety ratings for MTB helmets.



OldManBike said:


> il
> 
> *Troy Lee A2 MIPS*
> Good: MIPS plus dual-density foam; 5 stars from VT; not heavy
> Bad: no breakaway accessory mount; no crash replacement


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

stiksandstones said:


> As for 'no breakaway' acc mount, it does not have one, meaning you will have to adhere a light/camera anyway, and it would break away in a crash-i'd also not ever recommend attaching crap to your helmet, ever, but people do it.


To me, night riding with a light on the helmet is common enough that a helmet that doesn't offer a safer way to do it is a less-safe design. But individual riders who never mount a light needn't care, of course.



stiksandstones said:


> Incorrect on your 'bad'. TLD does have a crash replacement policy, check their site for details.


Can you give a link or explain? All I see is your warranty page, which says it "covers the product only in the case of manufacture defect. It does not cover products damaged due to normal wear and tear, negligence, improper care, natural breaking or fading of colors and materials over time and/or exposure," which doesn't sound anything like crash replacement to me.



stiksandstones said:


> Also, clarifying your "dual density" it is worth noting, its not just dual density EPS that a few brands do, A2 and the Stage use a combo of EPP (low speed energy management) and EPS (High speed energy management) which is a patent pending system only found in TLD helmets and proven to test better than nearly every helmet at managing LOW speed and HIGH speed.
> 
> TLD a2 and the a1, combined make TLD the only brand to have 2 helmets in the top 5 of the Virginia Tech safety ratings for MTB helmets.


Thanks for clarifying that. I'm absolutely impressed with how seriously you guys are taking concussion safety now, and that's speaking as someone who (as you may recall) was critical in years past.

EDIT: I agree with Stikman that the use of EPP (vs a softer EPS) is worth emphasizing. I hope someone who knows what they're talking about clarifies this, but my impression is that EPP is softer (and thus better at absorbing linear impacts) than EPS, even lower-density EPS like that used by Kali and others.

The A2 and the A1 look similar, both have MIPS, and their VT scores are similar, but in my book the A2's use of dual density EPS/EPP foam is a compelling reason to pick the A2 over the A1.


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

Crash replacement FAQ:
https://troyleedesigns.com/pages/faq
Since it varies by model, contact customer service and they have helped many customers that needed a replacement after being saved in an accident.


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

Troy has been taking concussion safety very seriously from the moment he got into the helmet business 25+ years ago. Lab testing, real world crash scenarios, data from the variety of sports and brands we are involved in (F1, Indy Car, Motocross, MTB, etc) have all helped Troy push the boundaries of safety. I work for the man, he is relentless in improvements, because these athletes are his friends, his family and his customers-he takes it very personal.



OldManBike said:


> Thanks for clarifying that. I'm absolutely impressed with how seriously you guys are taking concussion safety now, and that's speaking as someone who (as you may recall) was critical in years past.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

stiksandstones said:


> Crash replacement FAQ:
> https://troyleedesigns.com/pages/faq
> Since it varies by model, contact customer service and they have helped many customers that needed a replacement after being saved in an accident.


Corrected my post, thanks.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

*Riders with prior concussions
*When you break a bone, it heals and a couple months later it's good as new. Concussions are different. Once you've had a concussion, your brain will likely never be good as new. Yes, the symptoms will probably go away (for some that takes days, for others it takes months, regardless of the perceived "severity" of your concussion). But your brain will likely always be more fragile, more concussion-prone. Crashes that wouldn't have given you a concussion before will give you one now.

Let me try to explain what I mean (keep in mind I'm just a layman with no medical expertise). Consider brain impacts (linear or rotational) on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 big enough to break your skull and 1 an everyday bump on the head. Before my concussion, let's say it would take a 7 to give me a concussion. Now, more than 5 years after my initial concussion, maybe it takes a just a 4 or 5.

All these years later, I'd never bang my head in frustration anymore, or shake my head rapidly. I'm way more cautious about bumping my head on a cabinet door or while rough-housing with my kid.

And, for me, for _months _after my initial concussion, just a 1 or a 2 was enough to sink back down in concussion symptoms. Any little knock, even getting startled by a bug, and I felt nauseous and couldn't scroll on a screen for days. So it kept happening, over and over. That was horrifying, honestly.

Okay, so what's all this got to do with helmet choice? Well, the gloomy part is that no helmet will protect your post-concussion brain from concussions as effectively. That crash that gives you a 6 impact is going to concuss you and there's no helmet in the world that'll stop it. Bummer.

But I believe helmet choice still matters for riders who've already had concussions, and still matters a lot. A safer helmet may not protect you from a big impact anymore, but it can still protect you from a smaller one. If a helmet can turn 5s into 3s and 3s into 1s, it's reducing your concussion risk.

If I'm right about all that, then _activation threshold _matters. If it takes a relatively big hit for a helmet's concussion-reducing effect to kick in, that's bad for the post-concussion rider who benefits the most from protection from less-severe impacts.

If you try to squish a Kali LDL pad with your fingers, it feels pretty stiff; a Leatt Turbine disc feels squishier. Try to squish Wavecel, it's rigid; squish a 6D helmet with ODS and you can feel it move easily.

So, until there's data to the contrary, my armchair advice to riders who've had concussions is to favor helmets with linear-force concussion tech they can _feel _working, like 6D's and Leatt's. And be especially critical of helmets with tech like original MIPS that reduces only rotational forces, not linear ones.

*Riders who've never had a concussion*
The best time to buy a safer helmet is _before _you've had a concussion. Waiting until after your concussion to take concussion risk seriously is irrational.


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

Still trying to understand why you are so quick to push people into non-MIPS helmets, when the data is showing the best system to reduce rotational forces, is MIPS. Of the 29 helmets that scored five stars out of five at virginia tech labs, 24 had MIPS with Wavecel and Spin making up the rest of the spots...and kali/6d were not even in that top 30!


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

stiksandstones said:


> Still trying to understand why you are so quick to push people into non-MIPS helmets, when the data is showing the best system to reduce rotational forces, is MIPS. Of the 29 helmets that scored five stars out of five at virginia tech labs, 24 had MIPS with Wavecel and Spin making up the rest of the spots...and kali/6d were not even in that top 30!


I'm skeptical about the validity of the Virginia Tech results because I believe they're skewed by their test methodology.

VT's tests are performed using dummy headforms with no hair, no scalp movement, and no sweat. The helmet straps were cinched tight. And the headform has no neck and torso, so that it bounces around freely when it impacts.

Critics have pointed out _for years _that this methodology plainly risks overstating the effectiveness of MIPS. If you eliminate five slip-plane-creating factors that exist in the real world, of course the only slip plane left (MIPS) will seem more effective. For all we know from Virginia Tech's testing, MIPS never activates in a real crash, ever, because we have necks and scalps and hair.

MIPS themselves reportedly admit that, in their own testing, just adding a neck/torso attachment negates any demonstrated benefit. Even when they use that grippy bald head and cinch down the straps, it appears MIPS doesn't do squat if the dummy's head has a neck.

(I'm no scientist, but if I'm reading MIPS's website correctly, their position is that a neck has been shown to be necessary to accurately test crashes on racetrack turf but unnecessary for testing crashes on a hard road. So if they think a neck isn't necessary for testing _MTB _helmets, I'd sure love to hear them explain why.)

So the VT test data appears to me inherently flawed. It might be helpful in comparing similar designs--maybe it shows MIPS works better in this helmet than that one, say--but I think it tells us little about whether MTB helmets using MIPS are more effective at reducing concussion risk than helmets using other technologies. And I believe my conclusions are consistent with the Bike Helmet Safety Institute's conclusions, Snell's testing, and MIPS's own admissions.

(I'm not suggesting that VT is acting in bad faith, only that their test methodology needs revising in order to achieve their purpose.)


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

I've updated my post on specific helmets (#21 above) to add the Bell Super Air and give more detail on the TLD A2.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

*6D vs. Super Air vs. Wavecel*

Boiling down all the above, I believe that the three best helmets on the market in 2020 for concussion risk reduction are the 6D ATB-1T Evo, the Bell Super Air, and the Bontrager Blaze Wavecel. Here are some quick, maybe-educated guesses about choosing among them, with the big grain of salt that I haven't owned any and I haven't even held the Super Air (but I own the similar Super DH).
*
Concussion protection*
I believe all 3 helmets provide start-of-the-art protection from linear and rotational forces, far superior to plain MIPS alone. I don't have an educated guess about which one is the overall best at reducing concussion risk, but I suspect that the 6D is the softest (ie best at reducing smaller linear forces) and so maybe the safest one for riders who've had concussions.

*Ventilation*
Judging from reviews, the Super Air ventilates well, the 6D is average, and the Wavecel is below-average.

*
Weight*
They're all on the heavy side for trail helmets. The 6D appears to be heaviest of the 3, the Super Air the least heavy.
*
Cost (and crash replacement)*
MSRP for the 6D is $180, for the Super Air $225, and for the Blaze Wavecel $300. That difference is even bigger because the 6D is older and more likely to be discounted.

But the price difference may be smaller in reality than it looks. You could think of the Wavecel as a Super Air that comes with a crash-replacement upgrade for $75, and the 6D as a Super Air with a $50 discount for waiving the crash-replacement discount and giving up the accessory mount. If you think of it that way, then the Wavecel price is less batty, and cost less of a deciding factor.

If owning a light, non-DH certified fullface appeals to you, then the Super Air becomes an especially appealing option.
*
My take*
Kinda leaning Super Air.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

*Budget options
*
The Leatt DBX 2.0 is the best $100-or-below MSRP helmet option I know of for reducing concussion risk. Another option to consider is Kali's Maya 2.0--I have less faith in Kali's LDL than I do in Leatt's Turbines, and I don't think the Maya ventilates as well as the DBX 2.0, but the Maya has dual-density foam and Kali's free lifetime crash replacement.

As I type this, TLD is blowing out last year's A2's for $107, a steal for an advanced helmet that's well-reviewed.


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## solarplex (Apr 11, 2014)

Wanting a new gravel / xc helmet this year. 

Cant decide between the specter wavecel or the circuit mips. 

Ive heard mixed reviews on wavecels lack of airflow. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Wow, that Circuit MIPS is one ugly helmet. 
https://road.cc/content/review/240091-bontrager-circuit-mips-road-helmet

Maybe not quite Fox Dropframe ugly, but impressive still.

Anyway, the reviews I've read on the Blaze Wavecel generally say the ventilation isn't bad. Better than Smith's Koroyd helmets, not as airy as the best-vented conventional designs. Sounds like what you've seen too.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

solarplex said:


> Wanting a new gravel / xc helmet this year.
> 
> Cant decide between the specter wavecel or the circuit mips.
> 
> ...


airflow is fine on spectre wavcel

I have one and used it on hill repeats in 100 deg weather, it ventilates just as well as any other helmet I've ever used.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OldManBike said:


> Wow, that Circuit MIPS is one ugly helmet.
> https://road.cc/content/review/240091-bontrager-circuit-mips-road-helmet


Are you making recommendations based on appearance now?

Looks fine to me btw, beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Looks fine to me btw, beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess.


Certainly true. Pretty sure no one's taking my bike-fashion opinions too seriously.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Today I got my hands on the Bell Super Air (the full-faceable Super Air R, actually). I didn't wear it on a ride, just tried it on inside. My superficial impressions:


the inner shell rotates quite smoothly. My guess would be that it's at or near the top of the class on real-world reduction of rotational forces.
I'm not as confident about linear forces. The inner shell is said to be EPP, and it has a hint of noticeable give to it, but nothing remotely like the squishiness of 6D ODS. Beyond that I can't say.
the inner shell covers the entire inside surface except for the bottom back and side. So it may have a dead spot there (although a second or two of pushing made me think my head might not contact there in a crash?). Again, not sure.

Comparing the Super Air side by side with the Super DH, the difference was glaring. The Super Air's outer shell is plainly smaller. In particular, it's narrower side to side and doesn't come as low on the brow and ears. (To me that's great news. The Super DH looks like a mushroom on my head without the chinbar, and I'm constantly pushing it up off my brows on rides.) It looks much better ventilated, too. The Super Air looks vastly more practical as an everyday halfshell trail helmet IMO.

I popped on the chinbar for a look. It seemed quite airy but pretty dang flimsy. Hard for me to envision many situations where the halfshell would feel like too little but a real fullface would feel like too much. Again, just my quick superficial impression.

(I think of the Super DH as a nice fullface that's okay as a halfshell in a pinch; now I suspect that the Super Air is a nice halfshell that's okay as a fullface in a pinch.)

Anyhow, having now seen the Super Air in the flesh, my view remains basically the same as what I said above. While I suspect the 6D ATB-1T is bit more effective at preventing concussions, overall I view the Super Air as one of the top options available for a safe, quality trail helmet.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

REI just bumped up the price on the Bontrager Wavecel Blaze to $315, because $300 wasn't quite expensive enough.


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## mvray (Jul 26, 2007)

Great tip on the TLD A2. Only a few rides with it, but so far the best fitting helmet I've ever had. The TLD webpage has some other killer deals. I bought some Skyline shorts for a good price that includes the liner.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Yeah, they have Ruckus shorts deeply discounted too, they're one of my all-time favorite shorts.


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## YamaLink (Jun 23, 2010)

All good info, thanks for taking the time (everyone). I'm on the fence between the non-SPIN Poc Octal X and the SPIN version. Been wearing a non-MIPS Synthe for a few years, and the MIPS version arrives in a few days as does the Giro Aether which has MIPS incorporated differently than the Synthe.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

I'd get Spin over non-Spin in a heartbeat, personally.


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## RichardWad (Sep 24, 2019)

Tld stage the best, all things considered. Wear it everywhere with no problems yet

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm skeptical than any full-face is the best choice for maximum reduction of concussion risk. But, among enduro fullfaces, the Stage looks like one to consider.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Thanks for the thread. I just had a crash into a skatepark bowl that broke my hand and probably some ribs. I hit the front of my face hard too. Wearing a 4 yo Bell Super 2R. Walked away with just a minor laceration and no signs of concussion. Ive had a few previous hockey and bike head impacts that required ER and dentist and likely concussion, so happy my head is OK. Helmet looks perfectly fine but Im looking for a new one and the reviews out there are just worthless... eg it feels light, it must not be as safe! Im an engineer and though I don't know much about helmets I can tell when someone else has no clue either... and bike journos are as informed as mattress salesmen it seems.

My then 6yo split a Super 2R at the chin dropping into a bowl last summer. Regardless of the concussion tech used, read these forums and lots of people are having issues with the chin bars failing and causing harm.

If you think mtb helmet tech is sad, look at hockey. Official USA hockey training is that helmets have no effect on concussion risk... which is probably true for the s*** that passes for a helmet in the sport. I coach and played for a decade and no one will let you play with a more effective helmet because its not certified for use in ice hockey, yet my kid has been concussion protocoled out twice this COVID addled season (then again, the padding for the rest of the body is way more effective).

Im going to try the TLD Stage and Bell Super Air.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

The hockey helmets are the same now as the 80s really. (marginally better than the helmets when I first started playing in the 70s).

I have a Bontrager, it was about $130. The wave cell does not breathe well. I've also had a couple concussions, both on the bike and playing hockey... I'll suffer and sweat if I have to.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I was told I couldn't go out in the Spaceball Jofa I've had since '98 by the youth hockey org. But the new CCM is only more comfortable, otherwise less coverage and just the same hard plastic outer with foam inner. Both times I had dental issues w head hits I was wearing a metal cage but they only attach at the cheeks via straps, which does nothing for impacts to the chin that force the cage against your face. Only useful for errant sticks and deflected pucks.

I dont understand the griping over $100 or $200 in helmet cost when a failure leads to several thousand $ in dentistry. Be glad you are in a sport that cares about your well being and mfgs are actually trying to make it safer. I wont let my kid play travel hockey.

Will report back on fit for my round 61cm head with shaggy mane.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

fitek said:


> I was told I couldn't go out in the Spaceball Jofa I've had since '98 by the youth hockey org. But the new CCM is only more comfortable, otherwise less coverage and just the same hard plastic outer with foam inner. Both times I had dental issues w head hits I was wearing a metal cage but they only attach at the cheeks via straps, which does nothing for impacts to the chin that force the cage against your face. Only useful for errant sticks and deflected pucks.
> 
> I dont understand the griping over $100 or $200 in helmet cost when a failure leads to several thousand $ in dentistry. Be glad you are in a sport that cares about your well being and mfgs are actually trying to make it safer. I wont let my kid play travel hockey.
> 
> Will report back on fit for my round 61cm head with shaggy mane.


I had fewer dental issues without the cage. Far fewer sticks to the face too. But that's a thread drift


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Also my understanding of concussions is that they are due not only to the brain sloshing around in the skull, but damage at the cellular level. Rotation is worse because your brain is an oval in an oval container.

Surprised we got so far w/out a definition of impulse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_(physics)

If bike journos were right and heavier helmets are safer, DH riders should be wearing copper diving helmets. Reminds me of Jurassic Park where the lawyer asks if the binocs are heavy... cuz if they are they must be expensive.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I went and tried a Giro Tyrant w the spherical MIPS and a 100% Trajecta which has some mechanism based on little squishy blue standoffs. The spherical MIPS is easy to actuate and see working. The 100%... not so much, and requires changing out pads to adjust fit and that means popping those standoffs out. It wasnt easy. Based on that Im inclined to get the Super Air R or Super DH. The TLD Stage also requires fiddling with pads. FYI my 61cm head should fit a L or XL 100% Trajecta but I found the L didnt get wide enough for my round, oversized noggin.
EDIT: yes the fiddling w pads is probably a one time activity. I go a long time between haircuts so have to adjust helmet fit every few months. Edge case.

100% Trajecta IRL:


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

fitek said:


> Also my understanding of concussions is that they are due not only to the brain sloshing around in the skull, but damage at the cellular level. Rotation is worse because your brain is an oval in an oval container.
> 
> Surprised we got so far w/out a definition of impulse.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_(physics)
> ...


WHere are you reading ANY journalist reporting that heavier helmets are safer? I have been in this industry for 30 years, never heard that.


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

fitek said:


> I went and tried a Giro Tyrant w the spherical MIPS and a 100% Trajecta which has some mechanism based on little squishy blue standoffs. The spherical MIPS is easy to actuate and see working. The 100%... not so much, and requires changing out pads to adjust fit and that means popping those standoffs out. It wasnt easy. Based on that Im inclined to get the Super Air R or Super DH. The TLD Stage also requires fiddling with pads. FYI my 61cm head should fit a L or XL 100% Trajecta but I found the L didnt get wide enough for my round, oversized noggin.


Curious on your allure with the Tyrant? have you had impacts to your ears? this tiny trend of ear coverage is super strange to me. Half shell or Full face, take your pick-why 3/4 shell?

As for your experience with the STAGE helmet, 'fiddling' with pads? that helmet comes with the most amount of customization by way of all the included pads, for OPTIMAL fit, once you dial it in, you are golden-for good, the 'fiddling' is a one time thing ya know? To put a retention dial in a helmet like that, would create discomfort on the neck...I know because we tried.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

stiksandstones said:


> WHere are you reading ANY journalist reporting that heavier helmets are safer? I have been in this industry for 30 years, never heard that.


Thanks to the broken hand I wont bother digging up links but Ive read a lot of lightweight FF reviews in past week and most seem to say if you want real protection, go for a burlier helmet. The degree of protection is not necessarily proportional to weight and size. As has been pointed out in this thread, dual density foams and MIPS like tech may be helpful... wont add significant weight. At some point going for lower weight will reduce the amount of material compromising efficacy but its impossible for one dude just looking at a helmet and writing something in a bike mag to know when that is.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

stiksandstones said:


> Curious on your allure with the Tyrant? have you had impacts to your ears? this tiny trend of ear coverage is super strange to me. Half shell or Full face, take your pick-why 3/4 shell?
> 
> As for your experience with the STAGE helmet, 'fiddling' with pads? that helmet comes with the most amount of customization by way of all the included pads, for OPTIMAL fit, once you dial it in, you are golden-for good, the 'fiddling' is a one time thing ya know? To put a retention dial in a helmet like that, would create discomfort on the neck...I know because we tried.


Tyrant - no allure just FF helmets in stock are hard to find and it has the same MIPS spherical system as the Bell Super DH and Air R. I dont get 3/4 either in terms of coverage-- its popular in BMX, guessing style points in some circles.

My experience was w the 100%. I have not tried other helmets besides the 100% Trajecta and Super 2R. My beef w reviewers is that some are making statements re: efficacy without any basis for doing so-- why bother printing complete conjecture? If a mfg did the same theyd be in regulatory hot water. Reporting on fit and airflow etc is still useful information. I am likely to order TLD Stage, SuperAIR R and Super DH and return two of them. I was told by several local shops that new shipments wont arrive until March-April and I will be back on a bike before then.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

I watched a very competent rider have his wheel slip off the edge of a pump track, turn his bars 90 degrees and slam his knee, shoulder, and head right into a good sized roller at what was a very high rate of speed. He was wearing a quality helmet of a brand I cannot remember, but still showed signs of a moderate concussion. Another rider and myself stayed with him and made sure he got to the ride he needed to call. He had severe short term memory loss and was repeating questions over and over. Thankfully his extended family that picked him up were health care professionals and he amazingly had the wherewithal to not try to drive himself. 

His lid did not look to damaged at all as we assessed the severity of the situation. Due to the angle of impact his head hit the roller in a few places, with his lower eye socket taking a very large percentage of the hit. I believe that impact is what did the most damage to his brain and a full face would definitely have prevented the direct impact to the face and mitigated some of the forces. 

I had a big crash earlier in the week that had me hit the deck unexpectedly and very hard but somehow did not involve my head. After that and the above incident at the pump track I decided it's time for a full face myself and ordered a Stage just today. 

Point being, it is not just what is inside the lid that matters if the helmet itself is not taking the forces of the impact.


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

fitek said:


> Tyrant - no allure just FF helmets in stock are hard to find and it has the same MIPS spherical system as the Bell Super DH and Air R. I dont get 3/4 either in terms of coverage-- its popular in BMX, guessing style points in some circles.
> 
> My experience was w the 100%. I have not tried other helmets besides the 100% Trajecta and Super 2R. My beef w reviewers is that some are making statements re: efficacy without any basis for doing so-- why bother printing complete conjecture? If a mfg did the same theyd be in regulatory hot water. Reporting on fit and airflow etc is still useful information. I am likely to order TLD Stage, SuperAIR R and Super DH and return two of them. I was told by several local shops that new shipments wont arrive until March-April and I will be back on a bike before then.


Thanks for the clear response, I understand your viewpoint. As I think I said, I am a TLD guy, I do love my stage and I should have worn it 3 weeks ago when I crashed on my face!

Did a 6000' elevation day, 4hr eMTB ride, rode all the gnarly descents and my front wheel washed out on the easy fire road, face to a rock! I was wearing our new proto trail helmet (comes out in feb 2021) and suffered zero concussion, my smith glasses saved my eye socket I think. I think, "Would have one of those Ear protector helmets been more protective?" hell no, only a full face. So-Stage for me from here on out! Part of me wishes I got a concussion from a crappy helmet (big dent on front of helmet and visor) because I can vividly remember the crash, like a slow motion replay, so now every left hander I hit, I see myself doing that same crash again, PTSD of sorts? haha the perils of a good helmet haha.

Good luck with whatever you end up with, fit and comfort are king-no matter what the marketing tells you.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

IXS Trigger FF

Lightweight 
Breathable 
Meets DH crash standards
Simple padding system 
Adjustable retention system
Not expensive

I wear mine all the time, it’s hotter than a half lid, on big climbs I wear a sun hat and strap the helmet to my pack.

Got a full face when I finally recognized that my face is not well protected in a crash and the full face design is more crash worthy than a half lid.

I also wear leg armor and a pack with a back protector.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I found a TLD Stage at REI this past weekend-- a small, the only FF left at the store in Bham. So unfortunately could not try it on. Fit and finish on par with the 100% Trajecta , which is v. good (EDIT: on second thought, the Stage looks better). Nurse Ben, I know the IXS Trigger is light but I was not impressed w its fit and finish-- and it did not fit my head well.

More traditional looking MIPS system w the yellow liner. Visor is adjustable unlike the Trajecta, and the retention mech looks better than Super 2R... 2x pivots at the side and a lock knob at the center of the visor. My 2r, the visor knobs on the outside rub on stuff and sometimes unthread and fall out... my son lost one on the trail.

stiksandstones, dunno about you, but I rarely hurt myself doing dangerous things... it's usually when my attention is elsewhere, so at the end of a ride or on some "safe" piece of trail. With these helmets you may as well always keep them on unless you are in Texas or Florida and its ungodly hot and humid...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

You sure write an awful lot for a non expert.

I agree with the earlier poster ... the one with the broken caps key 🙄

The best helmet is the one you will wear, more than likely a full face or remiveable chin bar is better than a half li

In a serious crash, no helmet will prevent blunt trauma, hitting your head is hitting your head. The higher the velocity at impact, the faster the stop, the greater the likelihood of brain injury.

I started wearing a full face after watching a few face shots on Pinkbike’s Friday Fails.The funny thing is that I always wore a full face riding motos and I wore a face mask when paddling whitewater, but I just started wearing a full face for mountain biking.

I have a few patients who are post concussion, impairment varies, most common impairment is in memory, impulse control, and mood. I have had a few who lost a chunk of cognitive function, one teen had a concussion playing football, went from above average IQ to below average IQ.

Avoid crashing into things with your head.


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## Gurpil23 (Jan 23, 2018)

Have been following this thread for a while now, and it has been helpful, so I thought I would share my own experience. I had two falls in the last two years with head impact.

Last year I had a slow speed silly washout on the easiest trail around. I was wearing a Giro Chronicle MIPS. The way I fell (by complete surprise, with my hands still in the bars), my temple got the main impact resulting in a concussion. It did not feel like a strong impact, but it really ringed the bell. Symptoms lasted for five weeks, and that scare set me in the path of searching for better protection. The Giro helmet was a very comfortable fit, but for a low speed impact I felt it did not absorb that much energy. So after that first hit, having a helmet with some sort of low energy impact absorption became a priority. I also wanted to have MIPS as the concept of avoiding rotational/shear forces makes sense to me (on my first hit the force was mostly perpendicular to the helmet on the side, so I think MIPS would not have helped on that case). After much research, last year I ended up buying a Smith Forefront 2 MIPS, mainly due to the Koroyd technology. I recently read this crash report (Crash Tested: Smith Forefront 2 Helmet Review | The Loam Wolf ). Overall think that is one of the best options up there for a half lid.

Around the same time I also got a Bell Super 3R MIPS Medium. I wasn't looking for a convertible helmet, but found one for $49 at Sierra and since it was a good fit I decided to give it a try. I have been happy with the Bell, and have been using both the Smith and the Super 3r over the last year. Even it didn't have a system like Koroyd or dual density eps, the Super 3r was so comfortable and felt more solid than the Chronicle with the extra face protection, that I would use the Bell on some of the more difficult trails. A couple of months ago I finally got to test it, I went OTB hitting my head and left shoulder. This time the impact was much bigger than the last time, but I think the helmet (and MIPS) did their work. Had very mild nausea for 3-4 days, but overall got a much better outcome than the last time (and also avoided me a visit to the dentist).










So after that second fall I went back again to the search for a new helmet. This time I knew I wanted a full face. I did try the Bell Super Air R (as I was hoping for a lightweight helmet with a similar fit as the 3R with MIPS spherical, but it had a weird loose fit around the jaws) and the TLD Stages (not that great fit for me), but I ended up getting a Smith Mainline (20% discount at REI), and also a cash replacement Super 3R MIPS. So right now I have three options that I use depending what I am riding that day and the conditions. You can see below a side by side comparison as well as weights for the Smith Mainline, Bell Super 3R and Smith Forefront 2. All of them Medium (my head circumference is 57cm).

Overall the Mainline has become my new favorite, at almost the same weight as the Super 3r (with light support), it feels so much more solid in the head that I have been using it even on easier trails. It is so comfortable that is hard to find a reason not to use it. Sometimes I do feel silly wearing it on easier stuff, but with a history of concussion, questionable skills, and in the middle of a pandemic, it is a no brainer. As it was mentioned before, the best option is not to fall, but as long the risk is there, it is going to be the Mainline most of the time for me, the Forefront 2 for hot days or longer less technical days, and the Super 3r on those few cases where a convertible would make sense.
































































PS. I also considered the IXS Trigger Full Face, but the lack of MIPS was a no-go for me. Just got an email last week that the MIPS option is now available.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Gurpil23 said:


> PS. I also considered the IXS Trigger Full Face, but the lack of MIPS was a no-go for me. Just got an email last week that the MIPS option is now available.


MIPS is a gimmick, there are lots of gimmicks, the only non gimmick is buying a quality product that protects your face AND your head, then wear it.

Before you all go ballistic and threaten to lynch me, I agreed that MIPS is a good thing, but considering how a head and helmet work in concert when a head strikes another object, it would be pushing it to say that that little bit of movement with MIPS is gonna make or break an impact or subsequent injury.

Just think about it.

I ride the IXS Trigger because it is a solid, well made helmet that is lightweight and breathes well, so I wear it on every ride. Best gear purchase I have made.

Edit: Just saw that they added MIPS, nice call, I'd get that helmet, it's a great choice, just about as rideable when it's hot as a half lid. I do pull it off and don a sun hat on long climbs in the summer.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I ended up buying both the TLD Stage and the Super DH. I can't quite tell which one fits better, they both vary a bit-- one moves side to side more and the other one moves up and down more (when grabbed by the chin bar). Splittings hairs perhaps though, because both are a dramatic improvement in fit over the Super 2r which has such a sloppy fit in comparison that you might wonder if it will work at all, yet it still saved my head anyway every time I crashed in it. The Stage is the sexier helmet, but that only matters on Instagram. Since my wrist is still busted, I haven't gotten to ride with either helmet... just sitting around watching riding videos wearing a helmet waiting for the doctor's OK to resume normal activity.


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