# EBB design choices



## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Right now I have Paragon Sliders on my bike and I like them but with the next frame I am interested in trying something different. I have been thinking about building a bike with an EBB.

I am considering four options.

#1 PF30 with BEER components
#2 Bushnell
#3 Niner EBB
#4 Generic Pinch Bolt (like the Easton one sold by NOVA)

The design that has me the most excited is the PF30 with BEER components. I understand it will have limited throw but that is not a big issue because I don't mind using half links.

My concerns is the nature of EBBs in terms of slipping and/or creaking. I am also concerned about the ease of accurate adjustment because getting the perfect chain tension is important for the OCD part of me.

What has your experiences been in terms of the various EBB designs? Do you have any recommendations?

-Mark


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Easton shell slightly narrower than the rest... making it harder to get decent tire clearance with shorter stays?

I would love a split shell (done sexy) on a Phil Wood half link EBB. You hardly notice one on a steel frame. Ever since I tired Gusset S-Links, I'll never worry about running a half link again.

Universal Cycles -- Gusset Slink Half Link

Never gonna do set screws again. Four frames, all with ovalization issues.

I have a Niner EBB in a custom frame with no issues, but I think that the snugness of the fit/facing the shell is key to creak-free performance.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Not what you asked... But I've had two with Paragon's Rockers and have found nothing to complain about, aside from they are a bit heavy if that's even a consideration. 

Also not what you asked. . But have you looked at the Philcentric, the way I'd go if I had an outboard bearing crank in mind.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

G-reg said:


> But have you looked at the Philcentric, the way I'd go if I had an outboard bearing crank in mind.


Doesn't sound like a terrible way to do a conversion, but seems silly for a purpose built single speed.

Requires the Philcentric Installation Tool (only available to shops) to install.

Phil Wood & Co.

AND requires crank removal to tension chain?

http://www.philwood.com/philpdfs/philcentric.pdf

No thanks.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Im know expert but the reason I chose Niner EBB is that they also can go BB30 and
regular!!!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Yeah, just throwing it out there. Honesty I'm not a ebb fan. And now I see that ridiculous "for shops only" tool ridiculousness. That said said, there are drawbacks to any ebb. And I wouldn't use any in a SS specific build. But I had to post an on topic opinion before offering off topic advice.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

teamdicky said:


> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Easton shell slightly narrower than the rest... making it harder to get decent tire clearance with shorter stays?


Yes, I think that what I like about the BEER components with a 73mm shell because I personally am not a big fan of bending the sh*t out of the stays. The Easton and Bushnel designs are based on 66mm shell.



teamdicky said:


> I would love a split shell (done sexy) on a Phil Wood half link EBB. You hardly notice one on a steel frame. Ever since I tired Gusset S-Links, I'll never worry about running a half link again.


Ya, I think half links are a good idea because especially with EBB so you don't shift your position around so much. The Phil Wood unit looks nice and might be something to consider.



teamdicky said:


> Never gonna do set screws again. Four frames, all with ovalization issues.


Set screws seem like a bad idea.



teamdicky said:


> I have a Niner EBB in a custom frame with no issues, but I think that the snugness of the fit/facing the shell is key to creak-free performance.


Regardless of the design I choose I plan to ream for a really exact fit. Does anyone know what the specs are fro the Niner EBB?

It seems that getting a proper hand reamer for the project is a big part of the battle. For the NINER EBB would the park 789 reamer work or is a custom ground reamer required?

In terms of PF30 who is selling reamers these days? Park does not seem to list one.

Does anyone know what reamer for the Phil Half Link EBB or other designs?


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## cable_actuated (Jun 7, 2012)

The set screw style EBBs work fine for a year or so until you ovalize the shell. A tight fit between the EBB and the shell will reduce this tendency. 

I've never had a problem with a Bushnell featherweight slipping. They do require semi-frequent cleaning (every 2-6 months) to keep them creak-free. The Bushnell retro looks to have even more surface area and less cut outs to accumulate dirt. I haven't used one, but it might require less maintenance.

I've heard many creaky Niner Biocentric EBBs - all on AIR 9s. I'm not sure carbon is up to the task of an EBB, but I haven't seen many SIR 9s to compare them to. Niner is updating their design (supposed to be released soon) to include two bolts. My friend has been riding a prototype on his AIR 9. When I ride with him I hear no creaking and it hasn't slipped on him yet.

Personally, I think EBBs are more trouble than they're worth. The only reason I would use one is if I was designing a singlespeed with really tight clearances. The last Don McClung bike I saw had some super sexy short chain stays that wouldn't have allowed for any for-aft movement of the wheel for chain tensioning.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Mark,

Ebb's have gotten a bad wrap due to manufacturer's trying to create new, lighter, individual designs. In the effort to have something unique, they have created a stigma of slipping, creaking, and difficult to adjust bottom brackets. Not all EBB's are equal.

I've replaced broken sliding dropouts on at least 5 frames (paragon w/ windows...old style), warrantied a dozen insert plates, and often have to give patient instructions on how to adjust a slider, usually on a long distance call.

That said, I've been building with EBB's for over 18 years and have never had a customer complain about slipping, noise, or adjustability problems. Want a full proof EBB, make your own.

I machine my own shells, inserts, and heat sink to insure that the piece is precision and performance based. The negative, it weighs a bit more than sliders, but for the set and forget option that lasts forever, it's worth it.

You can see some of the process here in my latest blog post...

Groovy Cycleworks 330-988-0537: Martin's Ti belt drive 650b

cheers,

rody


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Thanks Rody, I am a big fan of your work.

In your process, it looks like you split the shell before you build the front triangle. Are you performing a final reaming operation after building the frame or does the relatively thick wall you use and the heat sink allow you to prevent distortion?

Rolling my own BB plus my own insert might be a bit much especially in the context of forming the threads on the insert. 

I have considered a split shell based design but would prefer the BEER design if it works well. A big advantage of the BEER approach design is that PF30 with 73mm shells are starting to look like the "new" standard for mountain bikes. I guess there is only one way to find out for sure if it works.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Mark,

Lot's of "standards" have come and gone, but the good old English threaded bb continues to live on...hmmm, maybe there is a reason?

Yes, split before welding. Custom heat sink and watching you heat input, no need for post weld reaming.

rody


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## Kewbee (Dec 6, 2008)

*Ebb*

For a purpose built ss I'd go with sliders or Paragons, I've used both the first (set screw type) & second incarnation (single pinch bolt) of the Niner EBB in a steel frame SIR9. They both worked fine when set up correctly, the later version is definitely better as the set screws in the first type tend to dig into the EBB after a while which causes them to always try to find the same points when making small chain tentioning adjustments. The main problem though is that the whole thing tends to seize up after a few wet & muddy rides so next time you come to adjust the chain tention you end up stripping the whole crank set down to clean up the shell, re-wrap with tape & bolt back together.

I don't know what the latest (double pinch bolt) Niner EBB is like, probably better than the previous two, but I can't see it overcoming the seizing up problem no matter what.


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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

I've been riding a Steelwool Tweed for years, set up fixed, singelspeed, IGH and geared. As long as I regrease the EBB once a year it is silent.

No ovalizaton issues after almost 5 years of continuous use. I'm guessing the seat and down tubes keep the shell from deforming when the set screws are tightened. I've never seen another brand use this set screw placement:


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## Jon Richard (Dec 20, 2011)

febikes, I don't know what you have decided but I have a BEER Components EBB and wanted to share how pleased I am with this unit and why.

I first tried a Problem Solvers- junk. Very sloppy fit and from what I understand from calling they vary a lot in tolerance.

The beer was very snug, not a press fit but light pressure was required for installation. I don't remember exactaly, but I believe the I.D. was 45.94mm.

A very nice part about the BEER unit is that the back side of the cups have a machined knurl that bites into the face of the BB shell, when coupled with the fact that this EBB has less concentric offset there is realy no chance this will rotate inside the BB shell once the bolts are tight.

And I have to mention that communication and support is top notch. I had a lot of questions and all were answered in short order. He even shipped the the thing on a Sunday just to get it to me quicker and I didn't even ask him to do that.


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

We're about to start a CX bike using the Beer PF30 unit for a customer.

I'm going to make sure I know the gearing the customer is going to run to make sure that the range of adjustment is ample.

I'd be really freaking happy if it works well. Really freaking happy.


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## rbemiss (Nov 19, 2008)

i have had good luck with ebb as well... don't get as involved as rody, but use a bushnell shell with custom heatsink. then braze 3 seat binder type brazeons along side one another, split on bottom side and use the non/ light weight version bushnell insert. bushnell seems to work well then there is a pinch option if a little extra is wanted. only have 5 maybe 8 out there but the first one was for a 250 lb guy about 6 years ago with no complaints or failures. maybe try the rody way sometime... will be a good machinist project for sure. its awesome!


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

You guys ever heard of any problems using the Niner/Beer style ebb with a square taper bb? Seems that an older/internal bb would force the ebb halves apart when you tighten it down.


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## angrybee (Nov 22, 2005)

Live Wire said:


> You guys ever heard of any problems using the Niner/Beer style ebb with a square taper bb? Seems that an older/internal bb would force the ebb halves apart when you tighten it down.


I am using Niner Biocentric with Philwood square taper BB for several years, and here are my method:

#1 Tighten the clamping bolt till EBB fixed then Install BB to EBB.
#2 Tighten up BB cups at BOTH sides then install cranks to BB.
#3 Loose the clamping bolt a bit to allow EBB rotate then tight again to fix the position.
#4 Uninstall cranks from BB then tighten up BB cups at BOTH sides again.

I think #3~4 is the keys to eliminate play from total syslem.

-Aki


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Rody said:


> Mark,
> 
> Lot's of "standards" have come and gone, but the good old English threaded bb continues to live on...hmmm, maybe there is a reason?
> 
> ...


That EBB on the right... I've stared at it too long.

I don't get it.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Just stick with your sliders*

To the OP: you've said your sliders work fine. Why do you want an EBB? Best case scenario, it also works fine. Worst case, it's awful (just search for "creaking EBB", or "slipping EBB"). Yes, you can make an EBB work ok if you overbuild it/heat sink it/ream it/whatever. And of course then you'll need to keep it clean, deal with having to do multi-step stuff to adjust chain tension, and change the distance from the BB to the saddle whenever you change gears around.

Sliders (with the exception, as Rody noted, of the window ones that all broke for all of us) just plain work. They don't slip, they don't creak, they don't have to be cleaned or maintained. If you do manage to mangle an insert you can get a new one for $10 or so. They also save you some work since the disc tab (post mount, even!) is built in.

IMO, EBBs are for tandems. No advantages over sliders in any way and lots of disadvantages.

-Walt


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Walt said:


> IMO, EBBs are for tandems. No advantages over sliders in any way and lots of disadvantages.
> 
> -Walt


I can swap gears faster (says the guy with the non-creaky EBB)


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Pfffff...*

Says the guy who quits when it gets a little wet....


-W



teamdicky said:


> I can swap gears faster (says the guy with the non-creaky EBB)


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## Jon Richard (Dec 20, 2011)

I'm really satisfied with my BEER EBB and have zero issues but I do tend to agree with Walt on this, sliders are a very straight forward no nonsense approach. Mine is just an experiment to adjust for the geometry I'm after, otherwise I would not have bothered with an EBB.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Walt said:


> Says the guy who quits when it gets a little wet....
> 
> 
> -W


How do you think I keep my bike uncontaminated and creak free?


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Walt said:


> To the OP: you've said your sliders work fine. Why do you want an EBB?


My thinking about EBB is driven by the idea that the BEER design looks like it would be easier to swap gears plus I think BEER ebb would be lighter then a slider bike.

That said the more I think about it the more I like sliders.

The ones I have been using are Paragon and have been fine but they have windows. I think they seem strong enough and god knows I have ridden the sh*t out of my bike this year.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*You are fine*

AFAIK, only the tab version windowed sliders broke (I talked to Mark about it a bit), the hooded ones were fine.

I think the weight is a wash, probably, but maybe a very minimalist EBB would win that battle.

-Walt



febikes said:


> My thinking about EBB is driven by the idea that the BEER design looks like it would be easier to swap gears plus I think BEER ebb would be lighter then a slider bike.
> 
> That said the more I think about it the more I like sliders.
> 
> The ones I have been using are Paragon and have been fine but they have windows. I think they seem strong enough and god knows I have ridden the sh*t out of my bike this year.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

teamdicky said:


> That EBB on the right... I've stared at it too long.
> 
> I don't get it.


Dicky,

Two purge/heat sinks on the table, the one on the left fits into my frame fixture and allows the EBB shell to be slid over top, providing heat dissipation and gas coverage for the frame.

The insert on the right is the heat sink I use for the EBB when welding out of the fixture. My standard argon purge sink goes in where the bottom bracket normall would, allowing gas to pass to the outer shell through the machined channels. This allows not only heat dissapation into the AL shell, but full gas coverage for the inside of the frame.

Get it now?

rody


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Rody said:


> Dicky,
> 
> Two purge/heat sinks on the table, the one on the left fits into my frame fixture and allows the EBB shell to be slid over top, providing heat dissipation and gas coverage for the frame.
> 
> ...


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

[/QUOTE

Yes. Totally understand. With this information in hand I will begin building my own frames on the morrow. Huzzah!!![/QUOTE]

Suweet...take this knowledge and try not to hurt your self 

Expecting pics when it's done.

r


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