# Hand pressure



## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Hey all, long time listener first time caller. 

I recent bought a giant talon 2 and have been riding around my neighborhood to get some cardio in the afternoons. Nothing crazy, just 2-3 miles or 30 minutes of keeping my heart rate between 120-150 bpm. I bought my youngest kiddo a new bike yesterday and we rode a little longer that I normally do, and I noticed that I seem to be putting a lot of weight on my hands. They’re not going numb or anything, but I’m definitely using my hands to support my body weight. I’ve read that this isn’t normal, I believe my seat height to be correct, as my pedal stroke feels really good, but that’s about as far as my knowledge of the subject goes. Does anyone have any advice to fix the issue? I’d like to get to the point to where I’m riding an hour or more everyday and I don’t want my hands and wrist to hurt all the time lol. 

5’10”
220lbs 
Giant talon 2 small frame 29” 
My height comes from having a longer torso so they fitted me into a small frame. 

Thanks! 


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

wait...what?

you're 5'10 and have been put into a SMALL sized frame? you got hosed, friend.

I would want to see a picture of you on the bike to confirm this.

but at your height, you should be on a frame no smaller than a medium. And depending on how long your torso and arms are, an XL might even work (especially on a bike like the Talon, that's not terribly long). But a small? Your saddle is going to be WAY above the height of the bars, and you'll probably have your back arched just in order to hold the grips. not to mention not much room between your knees and the grips as you pedal and turn.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Harold said:


> wait...what?
> 
> you're 5'10 and have been put into a SMALL sized frame? you got hosed, friend.
> 
> ...


I was hoping this wasn’t gonna be the case, we tried all the different frames and when I stood over the bike, the top bar was firmly planted in my nether regions. Is that normal? I’ll post pics of me on the bike this afternoon. 

But I do believe the seat is higher than my bars, if it’s not higher. It’s at least equal height. 


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Yeah it's hard to imagine anyone 5'10" getting a good fit on a size small. Generally a large would be the first size I would go for and maybe a medium for some frames that run a bit large.

Anyway for now I'd try to get the bars a bit higher, riser bars, stem or whatever. As you ride more and start putting out a little more power you'll also lessen the pressure on your hands. Also working on core strength and losing a bit of weight will help a lot.

Good luck!


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

Stand-over is really an old school fitting concept that doesn't apply anymore. That bike is way too small for you. Is it still in good shape? Can you return it?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I was hoping this wasn’t gonna be the case, we tried all the different frames and when I stood over the bike, the top bar was firmly planted in my nether regions. Is that normal? I’ll post pics of me on the bike this afternoon.
> 
> But I do believe the seat is higher than my bars, if it’s not higher. It’s at least equal height.
> 
> ...


if you have a long torso, you will have a short inseam for your height. yes, this will give you less clearance over the top tube. this is not a primary fit dimension. you fit the bike for RIDING, not standing over it. that said, if you want a bike with more top tube clearance, instead of changing the size, you need to change bikes until you find one with the clearance you want.


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## Gym123 (Dec 4, 2021)

You should be able to sit on the bike with your hands on the grips without your hands needing to support excessive weight- should be almost equal between the saddle and hands. If you can post a side shot of the bike, it will be possible to see the position/height of the stem and saddle- if they're too far apart, you'll be leaning forward but you may be able to raise the handlebar to help with this. 

I put a straighter handlebar on my Giant MTB, paddle grips and bar ends on it- still tweaking things, but I rotated the handlebar to prevent bending my wrists and it's definitely better than the handlebar that came with it. I had also adjusted the stem to raise the bar and that lets me sit more upright- on a small frame, I can't imagine that you're leaning forward much.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I am 5'7", and I ride medium size mtbs.

With a long torso, you probably want a fairly long reach. I'd guess something around 450mm at least. You can create a longer cockpit by pushing your saddle all the way back on its rails and installing a longer stem. This might make it more comfortable for you, but still isn't ideal if the bike doesn't fit you correctly.

Most people ride with handlebar height about equal to saddle height. However, XC racers will often have the bars significantly lower than saddle height, and they don't suffer from excessive hand pressure.

Also, some pressure on your hands is normal. It shouldn't be a lot, and shouldn't cause discomfort, but having some weight on your hands is normal.


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## xjbaylor (Sep 22, 2006)

Sorry that you were given poor fit advice. With a smaller frame you get a shorter stack, meaning your hands are lower and your weight rotates forward over your hands. If you are otherwise comfortable you could try a really high rise bar as a stop gap solution, but the right way forward is probably a frame that fits you better. Deity makes an 80mm rise bar that might provide a little bit of relief. Good luck, hopefully your LBS will help correct their mistake by helping you trade into another bike, potentially a no-cost trade in on a pre-owned bike they have in stock?


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Yep, size small is the wrong size. You need medium or maybe even large.

However, size small will see you more upright with less weight on your arms. 
So...... it will actually be making for less weight on your arms. I think you simply need to get used to riding. 

Get ride of that bike and step into a medium or large.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

goldsbar said:


> Stand-over is really an old school fitting concept that doesn't apply anymore. That bike is way too small for you. Is it still in good shape? Can you return it?


I literally just bought it a week ago. Maybe 14 miles on it. Posting pics now 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Ok, I went home for lunch and had wifey snap some pics


























































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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Looks too small to me. If you can, return it and trade for a larger bike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

The seat is way too low, maybe 3" or so too low. You should be pedaling with your foot a little further back on the pedal.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

A Large is likely the size for you.
If you want to ride on trails-
You have to lean forward going uphill but still keep weight on the rear tire for traction.
You stand on the pedals for downs and move around to deal with rocks/roots.
A Large will give you more cockpit space to move around to help control the bike on trails.
You'd be cramped trying to do that on a Small.
*But the added space of a Large will make you put more weight on your hands.*
I'd recommend a 35mm riser bar with 12* back sweep. Or at least 9* which is easier to find.
760mm width would be a good width.
This would help with weight on your hands when riding a Large around on the flats.
Also core strength development is normal for mtbiking. You use your core to get weight off your hands. You can feel that happening when you take your hands off the bars.

I'd get a Large with a new handlebar.
Check the stem length. It looks too long. The shop may have swapped on a non oem to help you fit. Even if it's the right stem, a shorter stem will take pressure off your hands along with the riser bar. 35mm or 45mm would help you.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

Not directly related, but just chiming in on hand issues.

Been an avid cyclists for many years at this point, never had ANY hand/wrist issues. Lately been riding all mtb or commuting bikes with slight riser bars ~680mm wide. No issues. Jumped on my CX bike with 42 cm width drops two weeks ago. Shortly after the ride felt like I had a serious bruise within my hand, where it meets the wrist. Lasted for around three days and hurt pretty badly. Gripping, pushing on the wall getting out of a pool. No numbness, no tingling, but bad internal bruise-like pain.

Happened to run into a doctor pal (not a hand specialist, but a smart dude with a sports background too) and he did a few diagnostic things and said it was carpal tunnel-like. All I can think is gripping my hoods and the different bars did it. Haven't seen any threads on this, but it sucked and I hope it doesn't come back or continue. I ride seven days a week in some form, so not being able to grip my bars is a major problem. The best way I can describe it would be a charley horse within my hand, I guess maybe where the nerve is, but more a dead/dull pain than throbbing. Squeezing the hand with my thumb on palm, index/middle finger on top hurt like heck.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

eb1888 said:


> A Large is likely the size for you.
> If you want to ride on trails-
> You have to lean forward going uphill but still keep weight on the rear tire for traction.
> You stand on the pedals for downs and move around to deal with rocks/roots.
> ...


So new bike, new bars and shorter stem? I’ve had this one about 10 days or so. Maybe they’ll swap me for the right size. I sure hope so 


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Also look at Ergon grips. The small race model does enough to spread your weight across the heal of your hand to relief some pressure until you build up your core strength.

Test ride a Fathom 2. Thetis more money but if you have any trails in your area, it's Giants best new hardtail. Trailforks website will list trails around you. Kids love trails.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

After you get the correct frame size.
Then proceed to move your seat more rearward. It's a really effective solution for many hand pressure causes.

Common causes for hand pressure:
1) Seat too far forward, so it doesn't counter balance your center of gravity enough.
2) Seat too high and bar too low and long, so you lean way over to reach the bar and, in the process, dump weight on hands.
3) Bar too close to you, so you try to push it away.
4) Upper body weight too heavy and core muscle is incapable to support it.
5) Ride too easy for the aggressive position. Pedaling motion provide reflective force which unweight seat and hands. This allow riders that ride hard to have more aggressive position than riders that go easy.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Letter sizing is not super relevant here, but you seem to be set up very wrong on there.

Your seat is WAY too low as pointed out, like 2-4" too low. Raise the seat just below the point you hips rock. You are NOT supposed to be able to sit on the seat with your feet on the ground.
Your feet (at least in the pics) are in a weird position. The ball of your foot should be roughly centred on the pedal.

These 2 things can have knock on effects you our arms, back, etc. if you aren't sitting right on the bike. Correct them first, and them go from there.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

You need either a medium or large frame


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm 5'11' with 32'' inseam.
99% of the mountain bikes I've owned would hit the boys if I tried to stand flat footed over the top tube.
Stand over is not how you fit a bike and as a shop they should have known that.
I ride large frames.

Go back and try a medium, but I'm guessing you're a large.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Thanks guys, i called the store and they’re not super convinced that they sized me incorrectly but said I could bring the back back in to check again. They were also hesitant and wouldn’t commit to the idea of me returning the bike for the proper size, im open to the idea in upgrading to the fathom 2 in the proper size but it will depend on how they handle this situation as to whether I buy from them or another store. I’ll keep y’all updated as this unfolds. I’m really enjoying riding the bike, especially with the kiddo. 


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## Yeti3 (Sep 4, 2020)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I’m really enjoying riding the bike, especially with the kiddo. Here’s a pic of her on her new bike yesterday 2 minutes after picking it up.


Good luck getting the right bike! I love the kiddo's smile but her bike also seems a tad small ;-)


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Yeti3 said:


> Good luck getting the right bike! I love the kiddo's smile but her bike also seems a tad small ;-)


Man I thought the same thing when she sat on it. I’m hoping to get a year out of it 


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## Wrongturn (Jul 17, 2016)

Bring this thread into the shop with you. That frame is way too small and they need to fix their error. With LBS help like that, no wonder on-line sales are soaring.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Nat said:


> You need either a medium or large frame


Yea, looks like me on a bike two sizes too small. I start to feel like a bear riding a tricycle too.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thanks guys, i called the store and they’re not super convinced that they sized me incorrectly but said I could bring the back back in to church again.



I wouldn't accept that, it's easy to see that bike is almost clownishly short. I bet the seatpost isn't even long enough to get your seat to the proper height.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

For reference, I'm 5'9" with a 30" inseam. My trail and enduro bikes are medium and my DH bike is large.

My 5'3" daughter rides a small frame.

Sorry you got bad advice from your LBS.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> I wouldn't accept that, it's easy to see that bike is almost clownishly short. I bet the seatpost isn't even long enough to get your seat to the proper height.


I agree. I’m hoping cooler headed prevail here and I can get either the same bike ins. The correct size or maybe even a fathom 2 in the correct size. Also this is the closest shop to me by a large margin so hopefully this I’ll just be a bump in the road. 


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Nat said:


> For reference, I'm 5'9" with a 30" inseam. My trail and enduro bikes are medium and my DH bike is large.
> 
> My 5'3" daughter rides a small frame.
> 
> Sorry you got bad advice from your LBS.


I have a 34 inseam, I ride a small.

Yes, they probably should have sold him a medium, but there is WAY more going on here, he is not sitting on the bike right at all.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> I have a 34 inseam, I ride a small.
> 
> Yes, they probably should have sold him a medium, but there is WAY more going on here, he is not sitting on the bike right at all.


Dude, his bike is too small. There's no "probably" about it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

smashysmashy said:


> I have a 34 inseam, I ride a small.
> 
> Yes, they probably should have sold him a medium, but there is WAY more going on here, he is not sitting on the bike right at all.



Can you see how low the seat is for his leg length? Gotta start there imo. Jack that seat up 3 inches or so to get closer to the right zone and then see how things look and feel.

I don't predict it will be so good.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Nat said:


> Dude, his bike is too small. There's no "probably" about it.


Did you look at the photos? heels or middle of foot on the pedals, seat several inches too low. You cant even begin to guess if its too small until that's fixed.

Simply giving the guy a medium will not solve a single problem here.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Can you see how low the seat is for his leg length? Gotta start there imo. Jack that seat up 3 inches or so to get closer to the right zone and then see how things look and feel.
> 
> I don't predict it will be so good.


That's exactly what I'm saying. "fit" the bike first, then determine if the geo is adequate.

The should should have done thins. I know some customers are stubborn with the fee on the ground thing, but this should have been explained.


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

That third pic. Wow, looks like you're on a kids bike. For the seat height, with you _heels_ (not how you normally ride!) on the pedal, keep raising the seat height just until your heels come off the pedals when you pedal. Maybe lower a little from there due to your inexperience. That will at least get you ballpark for when you put your feet back to the correct position. Take a pic after that.

I feel like the shop should work with. I hope for your sake they're reasonable about it and this doesn't go nuclear. If not, you can make it work per the suggestions given. I've been riding recreationally for 30 years, think I know a lot more than I do, and still make sure to check with the local shop guy that the bike fits me correctly before I walk out the door. That's basically their whole reason for being on many sales. I'm 5'9-5'10" and wear 30" jeans. My size is a medium/large (yes, it's a real thing with Trek) or biased towards a large in other brands.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

goldsbar said:


> That third pic. Wow, looks like you're on a kids bike. For the seat height, with you _heels_ (not how you normally ride!) on the pedal, keep raising the seat height just until your heels come off the pedals when you pedal. Maybe lower a little from there due to your inexperience. That will at least get you ballpark for when you put your feet back to the correct position. Take a pic after that.
> 
> I feel like the shop should work with. I hope for your sake they're reasonable about it and this doesn't go nuclear. If not, you can make it work per the suggestions given. I've been riding recreationally for 30 years, think I know a lot more than I do, and still make sure to check with the local shop guy that the bike fits me correctly before I walk out the door. That's basically their whole reason for being on many sales. I'm 5'9-5'10" and wear 30" jeans. My size is a medium/large (yes, it's a real thing with Trek) or biased towards a large in other brands.


The trek guy sized me for a M/L but I felt like I got more bike for my money with the talon 2 vs the marlin 5, so I went to a store that sold giant bikes. 

I’d like to say that normally I do pedal with the balls of my feet, and that today I wasn’t really thinking about any of that on the 30 seconds I asked my wife to take a pic before I ate my lunch today lol. I’m gonna jack the seat up when I get home and send more pics (with my feet correctly on the pedals) 

I’m not sure I have 3” of seat post left tho so that may be a fun surprise. 


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> You cant even begin to guess if its too small until that's fixed.


Yes I can


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I’m not sure I have 3” of seat post left tho so that may be a fun surprise.


That is quite sad for a giant dealer, they didn't seem to fit you on the bike at all.


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I’m not sure I have 3” of seat post left tho so that may be a fun surprise.


Yikes.
Make sure to still have at least 3" in the seat tube also. The seat post must overlap within the seat tube to provide structural integrity.
If you pull it up 3" and you have 0.5 inch left inside the seat tube. That's a sure way to destroy the seat post.
Solution: Larger bike with longer seat tube or longer seat post. I think larger bike is more appropriate.

Here's how to judge saddle height, by heel on the pedal (from 2:17 to 2:57). There can be minor adjustment up and down from there, depend if you like it a bit high or a bit low. But you won't be more than an inch off from what heel over pedal suggest.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Hexsense said:


> Yikes.
> Make sure to still have at least 3" in the seat tube also. The seat post must overlap within the seat tube to provide structural integrity.
> If you pull it up 3" and you have 0.5 inch left inside the seat tube. That's a sure way to destroy the seat post.
> Solution: Larger bike with longer seat tube or longer seat post. I think larger bike is more appropriate.
> ...


Thank you! This is super helpful. 


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## N54tt (Jan 7, 2022)

While I agree that the bike is too small, saddle height needs to be tweaked and he can work on proper foot placement. I don’t think those are the main issues on what’s causing his hand weight issue. You should be able to take your hands off your handlebar and still keep balance….not fall forward or backwards. Any experienced mtb‘er with proper riding skill and core strength should be able to get on a small ill fitting bike and do such that. If anything too small of a bike, would have you more upright and tendency to have less weight on the bars.

@dryfirecharlie you can still work on riding position until you get your bike size situation worked out. If someone can hold your bike try and shift your position/balance forward and back…to a point where if you lift your hands off the bars….you don’t immediately fall forward or backwards….that’s where you want to keep centered
Or if you feel comfortable doing it while riding can do that too….depending on how good your balance is lol.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm going to guess this is your first bike as an adult?

Lots of people getting back on a bike for the first time since being a kid want a "wrong" fit, especially for a mountain bike. They look at standover as if they need to avoid "racking" themselves standing flat-footed over the bike. They also want most of both feet on the ground, so the saddle is way too low. With proper seat height, and the bike vertical, your toes will just be grazing the ground. With saddle height correct, you have to lean the bike to get one foot flat on the ground while in the saddle.

So yeah, lots of people tend that way, and lots of bike shops have to gently inform you that setting a bike up that way and sizing it that way is a big mistake. Of all the modes of mountain bike crashing, being able to stand flat footed in the saddle and over the top tube with "jewel clearance" avoid virtually none of them. That really isn't a concern. It appears that your shop disserved you on both size and set-up.

So, you need to raise your seat until your knee is just bent at bottom dead center with your foot flat on the pedal. That GCN video, above, illustrates. That may not be perfect, but it's a good start. Beware, as described above, you won't be able to sit on the saddle and keep your bike straight up.

Once you get that right, if you have the seat tube length, you will find yourself towering over the handle bar, and you'll have to lean so far forward that your weight will really be on the bars. And there's probably no amount of stem or bar rise that will fix that, short of handlebars off an old Sting Ray.

But for now, I'm going to guess that your hand problem is lack of core strength and might improve as you ride more and use your core to pull up and support your shoulders and trunk. Because your seat-to-handle bar is ok. But your saddle height is way off.

But in the end, with your seat at that height, you are going to have pretty serious knee pain once you ride very long or hard. And probably develop a nasty case of patellar tendinitis. It's going to be under the kneecap and right above your knee in front.

Also, for future reference as you are tweaking saddle height. It's too low if you feel your knees twinging in front, and too high if you feel a twinge behind your knee (you're slightly hyperextending at that point). Too far forward can cause the same issues as too low and too far back the same as too high.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

TwiceHorn said:


> I'm going to guess this is your first bike as an adult?
> 
> Lots of people getting back on a bike for the first time since being a kid want a "wrong" fit, especially for a mountain bike. They look at standover as if they need to avoid "racking" themselves standing flat-footed over the bike. They also want most of both feet on the ground, so the saddle is way too low. With proper seat height, and the bike vertical, your toes will just be grazing the ground. With saddle height correct, you have to lean the bike to get one foot flat on the ground while in the saddle.
> 
> ...





Yep.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

That bike is way too small. Go swap it out for a medium at the very least. 

As far as hand pressure is concerned. You need to put the miles in and get used to biking.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Moved the sets up about 3”, theres definitely less than three inches of post left inside the tube. Maybe 2” and that’s a big maybe. Here’s some pics, it feels weird being up that high and the bars so low lol


















































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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

pedals still in the middle of feet 
east probably still too low

BUT

How does it feel? do you feel less weighted forward?

If yes, slide the seat backward.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

You can place your feet wherever the F you want on those pedals and the bike will still be too small.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

For knowledge, the size medium and large will not change your position from seat to pedal (you will get a longer seat post of course. But it wont change your weight on your hands (directly). It will raise the bars up a little but as mentioned by someone else, you first need to be balanced.

Once you "fit" this bike, you can then see how much bigger you need to go. Could be medium, might need to be large.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> Could be medium, might need to be large.


YOU DON'T SAY... 🤦‍♂️


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

smashysmashy said:


> pedals still in the middle of feet
> east probably still too low
> 
> BUT
> ...


My wrists are probably more sore after that rice, than any other so far, but.L I did ride twice as far as usual, so 4 miles. The actual pedal stroke felt significantly better tho, although stopping and starting with the seat up that high took some getting used to, thankfully I rode with my kids so I have plenty chances to practice getting on and off. 

About the pedals, my feet at the ball are as wide as the pedals themselves. I ordered a set of rage face Chester’s a couple days ago, they’ll be here tomorrow, along with a set of loam grips. 


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Nat said:


> YOU DON'T SAY... 🤦‍♂️


Yes, after gathering info, I say. 

Your opinion right now is as valid as the people that set up hid bike in the first place... that is to say: not.

We are trying to arm this rider with knowledge and understanding of bike fit, and not just have him walk into store saying "some guy on the internet said in all caps I need a large, cause, reasons".


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> Yes, after gathering info, I say.
> 
> Your opinion right now is as valid as the people that set up hid bike in the first place... that is to say: not.
> 
> We are trying to arm this rider with knowledge and understanding of bike fit, and not just have him walk into store saying "some guy on the internet said in all caps I need a large, cause, reasons".


You get another face palm. That's two in one evening.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

dryfirecharlie said:


> My wrists are probably more sore after that rice, than any other so far, but.L I did ride twice as far as usual, so 4 miles. The actual pedal stroke felt significantly better tho, although stopping and starting with the seat up that high took some getting used to, thankfully I rode with my kids so I have plenty chances to practice getting on and off.
> 
> About the pedals, my feet at the ball are as wide as the pedals themselves. I ordered a set of rage face Chester’s a couple days ago, they’ll be here tomorrow, along with a set of loam grips.
> 
> ...


Cool. I thin the next step is to move the seat backward then. There wont be much you can do about the bar height right now, so, as the other guy said, you want to pop your hands off the bars (in a safe manner) and see if you can find a balance point.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> Cool. I thin the next step is to move the seat backward then. There wont be much you can do about the bar height right now, so, as the other guy said, you want to pop your hands off the bars (in a safe manner) and see if you can find a balance point.


Three


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

N54tt said:


> While I agree that the bike is too small, saddle height needs to be tweaked and he can work on proper foot placement. I don’t think those are the main issues on what’s causing his hand weight issue. You should be able to take your hands off your handlebar and still keep balance….not fall forward or backwards. Any experienced mtb‘er with proper riding skill and core strength should be able to get on a small ill fitting bike and do such that. If anything too small of a bike, would have you more upright and tendency to have less weight on the bars.
> 
> @dryfirecharlie you can still work on riding position until you get your bike size situation worked out. If someone can hold your bike try and shift your position/balance forward and back…to a point where if you lift your hands off the bars….you don’t immediately fall forward or backwards….that’s where you want to keep centered
> Or if you feel comfortable doing it while riding can do that too….depending on how good your balance is lol.


I was able to ride small stretches withy hands hovering just above the bar, maybe 50’ at a time before I’d start to drift and have to make contact. It’s weird having to relearn this stuff. When I was a kid I rode around with “no hands” all the time lol. I’m stoked to have found this new hobby, and thankful that all y’all are working to get me sorted out. 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

smashysmashy said:


> Yes, after gathering info, I say.
> 
> Your opinion right now is as valid as the people that set up hid bike in the first place... that is to say: not.
> 
> We are trying to arm this rider with knowledge and understanding of bike fit, and not just have him walk into store saying "some guy on the internet said in all caps I need a large, cause, reasons".


Hahahahah i may have already made that phone call. I’m a very polite way, I mentioned this post and the guy was like “*__* is a world class cyclist, and the owner of a bike shop, who are you gonna believe?” 

I said, “well that Is a valid point, I just think it’s worth the time to take another look before the bike gets beat up and one of us is stuck with it.” He agreed, so I’m gonna swing by there tomorrow. With my luck, it will blow out of the back of my truck on the way to the shop 


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

OP, until you get on the correct frame size, don't waste your time d***ing around any more moving the saddle to and fro, moving the bars this way and that. You're still on a frame that's too small so any adjustments will be on an ill-fitting frame. Get the correct frame size first, then sort out the rest from there. 

Who's this world class cyclist/shop owner anyway? We inexperienced peons all want to be amazed because none of us have ever met a word class cyclist or shop owner before.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Nat said:


> OP, until you get on the correct frame size, don't waste your time d***ing around any more moving the saddle to and fro, moving the bars this way and that. You're still on a frame that's too small so any adjustments will be on an ill-fitting frame. Get the correct frame size first, then sort out the rest from there.
> 
> Who's this world class cyclist/shop owner anyway? We inexperienced peons all want to be amazed because none of us have ever met a word class cyclist or shop owner before.


Lol, I best not say. I’m sure this was an honest mistake, and hopefully we can get it worked out. I’m even open to buying a fathom 2 if he’ll return this one. Of course it will have to be the right size lol. Are you thinking medium or large? I know it’s impossible to tell on the internet but if you had to guess 


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

I'd respond with "so is chris froome, but I ain't sitting on no top tube". There is often a disconnect between what 'pros' use and what normal people use. Thats why i mentions i ride a small - not that you should, but that it is more... complicated... than just lettering on a frame. Telling a rider to just get used to the pain of a position they hate could just make them quit the sport. Bad advice. AFTER they get used to the pain, they cam move toward more common "performance" riding positions, usually on the exact same bike.

Checking the talon geo to see where you end up.

S-29 you have:

reach 404
stack 602
seat angle 74
stem length 50

M

reach 424
stack 611
seat angle 74
stem length 60

L

reach 439
stack 630
seat angle 74
stem length 70


So, on each model, you stretch out forward about 3/4" in frame, and another 3/8" in stem length.
The stack height (height of the bars) does not change significantly til you get to the large.
You also gain about 2" of seat tube to raise the seat up per size.

So, you can actually simulate this fairly well on your bike to see how it will feel. Just place your hands forward on the grips a bit (make a fist above the grips if that makes sense), 1" then 2" forward. that's really the only meaningful fit different between the sizes.

But, I think we can kinda get an idea at this point, you need for comfort - at least for the moment til you get more used to riding - the bars to be higher up. Neither the medium or large or going to accommodate this alone, they are just going to stretch you out. It will probably have to be in conjunction with a new stem and / or handlebar as well.

You definitely need a change though to get correct seat height. either the larger frames (if being stretch 1" or 2" more is fine) OR a much taller seat post.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

The fathom is a lower longer bike per size (small fathom = medium talon basically). The seat angle is very slightly steeper. in short, it puts you more in the middle of the bike, with more forward weighting. I don't think think it solves your problem but rather makes it worse. Bikes like the fathom (big trend of late - long low and slack) have a geometry that is optimised when pointed down a steep hill.

Otherwise, very nice bike, I kinda want one


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

smashysmashy said:


> The fathom is a lower longer bike per size (small fathom = medium talon basically). The seat angle is very slightly steeper. in short, it puts you more in the middle of the bike, with more forward weighting. I don't think think it solves your problem but rather makes it worse. Bikes like the fathom (big trend of late - long low and slack) have a geometry that is optimised when pointed down a steep hill.
> 
> Otherwise, very nice bike, I kinda want one


It’s just got all the cool gadgets lol. Maybe I’ll get another talon 2 and add a dropper tube. 

Do you have another bike 94 brand that you’d recommend besides the giant talon 2? I’m not brand loyal just yet. Just trying to get a solid bike to learn on that I won’t have to work on all the time. 1x drivetrain is a must tho. I enjoy the clutter free handle bars. 


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Not really, In that they wont be all that different from each other geometry wise. They all follow the same sorts of trends.

I have a 6'7" tall friend, and we searched so long to find a bike with the longest head tube possible to get the bars way up. Wound up with a salsa XXL ($$$).


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

smashysmashy said:


> Not really, In that they wont be all that different from each other geometry wise. They all follow the same sorts of trends.
> 
> I have a 6'7" tall friend, and we searched so long to find a bike with the longest head tube possible to get the bars way up. Wound up with a salsa XXL ($$$).


lol yeah, I’ll save the $$$ for after I know what I’m doing. Right now I’m basically relearning to ride a bicycle 


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Nitpicking point.

Since you are on a hard tail with fork suspension,
a longer bike not only make the bike more stable, it'll also reduce the changes in geometry due to fork compression as well. Imagine 2 bikes, one very short and one very long. Both bike fork sag an inch when you are on the bike, with zero rear sag. The smaller bike'a HTA and STA will then become steeper than a longer bike.

But that's almost negligible. Size L aren't that much longer than S.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

dryfirecharlie said:


> It’s just got all the cool gadgets lol. Maybe I’ll get another talon 2 and add a dropper tube.
> 
> Do you have another bike 94 brand that you’d recommend besides the giant talon 2? I’m not brand loyal just yet. Just trying to get a solid bike to learn on that I won’t have to work on all the time. 1x drivetrain is a must tho. I enjoy the clutter free handle bars.
> 
> ...


I'm an optimist. I put out the Fathom because I'm looking to the future and seeing you on trails.
On trails the Talon is quickly overwhelmed and you'd want to replace it. Bad fork and geo, etc.
Plus the Fathom is the only hardtail Giant has bothered to update in over 10 years.
I'm seeing your fast development over the next few weeks.
It's already happening because you're here and making changes and progress relearning.
A Fathom 2 is better with Shimano drivetrain and cheaper than the Fathom 1 with low end Sram drive.
It can be more difficult to find in the L you'll want because it's a good choice in demand.
Giant's site has a locator function.
Just for info, competitors are the Trek Roscoe(not the 6). 9 is best.
Specialized Fuse. Salsa Timberjack. Marin Team Marin 2. Forks are important.

There's also a cheaper $400 alternative in only your size. One size only.
Just as good as the Talon. Not good on trails also without a $500 fork upgrade.
Kent™ 29" Men's Trouvaille Adult Mountain Bike, Taupe/Black - Walmart.com 
90 day return. If you can find one. You have to check the build very carefully.


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## Gym123 (Dec 4, 2021)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Hahahahah i may have already made that phone call. I’m a very polite way, I mentioned this post and the guy was like “*__* is a world class cyclist, and the owner of a bike shop, who are you gonna believe?”
> 
> I said, “well that Is a valid point, I just think it’s worth the time to take another look before the bike gets beat up and one of us is stuck with it.” He agreed, so I’m gonna swing by there tomorrow. With my luck, it will blow out of the back of my truck on the way to the shop
> 
> ...


There was a saying in retail- "One happy customer will tell three people and one UNhappy customer will tell ten people". 

That was before the internet and the many forums that exist, so amplify the latter by about a million. People tend to ignore the good and concentrate their attention on the negative. 

This has what, 18 miles on it? They probably can't sell it as a 'demo' bike but a brand new bike with light use won't cost them as much as an unhappy customer. 

Use a moving blanket when you take it to the store, so it won't be damaged. 

Back to the hand discomfort- don't take it personally, but your hands and forearms don't give me the impression that you do much manual work, with or without tools. I'm not saying that you need to beat your hands to death, but making them stronger could help with this. At this point, you're stretching the tendons (hands don't have much muscle) and stressing the bones and cartilage, which is likely what's causing the pain. Don't go from zero to WOT (Wide Open Throttle) with the hand exercises, but strengthen your hands and arms- it will make riding more enjoyable and if you go off-road at all, it will be safer because your arms will be able to support you better.

The great thing about biking is that it helps to strengthen the core, arms, hands, legs, heart, lungs......


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Are you thinking medium or large? I know it’s impossible to tell on the internet but if you had to guess


My guess is medium but it'll depend on the frame. For example, I was right in between sizes for my DH bike (that I ride with saddle down and pedals in the middle of my arch, lol) and went with the large.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

eb1888 said:


> There's also a cheaper $400 alternative in only your size. One size only.
> Just as good as the Talon. Not good on trails also without a $500 fork upgrade.
> Kent™ 29" Men's Trouvaille Adult Mountain Bike, Taupe/Black - Walmart.com
> 90 day return. If you can find one. You have to check the build very carefully.


yeaaaah, you might want to watch the follow up

Testing the Kent Trouvaille Walmart Bike for durability - YouTube


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Lol, I best not say. I’m sure this was an honest mistake, and hopefully we can get it worked out. I’m even open to buying a fathom 2 if he’ll return this one. Of course it will have to be the right size lol. Are you thinking medium or large? I know it’s impossible to tell on the internet but if you had to guess
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, I might guess that you gave them the impression that you were mostly going to ride around the streets and paths with your kiddo rather than pursue trail riding in any serious way, so they maybe over-indulged your newb wrongheaded thinking about bike fit/comfort when selling you.

Still, though, your saddle is just way too low. I'm surprised you aren't already experiencing some knee pain.

Also, kudos to OP for being receptive to and open-minded about all the "criticism" here. Sometimes it gets delivered in a surly way and the "victim" gets defensive. I think everyone here just wants to help.

Best of luck to you in resolving the situation.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

smashysmashy said:


> yeaaaah, you might want to watch the follow up
> 
> Testing the Kent Trouvaille Walmart Bike for durability - YouTube


Yep. Looks like the bars and bottom bracket have to be replaced right away. 
But stay tuned for more testing.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I mentioned this post and the guy was like “*__* is a world class cyclist, and the owner of a bike shop, who are you gonna believe?”


Hmm, the closest shop to me is a Giant shop and has a similar issue. I stopped going there as half the time if the owner was there whatever small part I was getting wasn't the right one even if it was and 100% of the time I was informed about how much more he knew than everyone else. 

OP, good luck getting the bike sorted and happy trails!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

eb1888 said:


> Yep. Looks like the bars and bottom bracket have to be replaced right away.
> But stay tuned for more testing.


Yea. That bodes well..


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Also, since it hasn't been mentioned for awhile, don't continue to ride that small frame with such a small amount of seatpost insertion. There should be marks on it with the "minimum insertion" depth. If those marks are exposed, then you risk the seatpost integrity, and worse, the frame's integrity. And by extension, injury.

Even if you don't feel comfortable and confident with riding the bike with the optimal amount of seat height just yet, you definitely need to have that adjustment capability available to you. Because if you really enjoy this riding and want to do more of it, you'll need the extra saddle height to achieve comfortable pedaling.

After seeing the pics of you on the bike (I know, so many responses since then), there are definitely some things for you to work on. With its original setup (pre-saddle adjustment), you looked like you had your butt planted on the seat with not much of your weight on your hands. Your body was very upright. Putting the saddle where it should be is going to pitch your body forward some. With some variation from person to person and bike to bike, this is a normal thing for mountain biking. This absolutely will tip more weight towards your hands, and a big way to counteract that tendency to support that weight with your hands is to engage your core to support your upper body. You can make some bar/stem adjustments (includes swapping parts for those with different dimensions), but you want to be careful you don't do too much. You WANT your overall center-of-gravity to be between the front and rear wheels in a way that the front wheel gets a decent amount of pressure. That pressure is going to help with traction when you're off pavement and when you turn. If you put too much weight on your saddle and sit super upright, then that's going to take weight off of the front wheel, put it more onto the back wheel, and give you a LOT less turning and braking traction to work with.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

fly4130 said:


> Hmm, the closest shop to me is a Giant shop and has a similar issue. I stopped going there as half the time if the owner was there whatever small part I was getting wasn't the right one even if it was and 100% of the time I was informed about how much more he knew than everyone else.
> 
> OP, good luck getting the bike sorted and happy trails!


Yeah, avoid shops like that like the plague. 

Wasn't this place, was it?

Exposed by a Strava KOM: The many lives of a fake pro cyclist - CyclingTips 

Just because you were some pro (assuming this is actually true and not a fabrication or exaggeration) doesn't mean you know jack about helping beginners.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Harold said:


> Yeah, avoid shops like that like the plague.
> 
> Wasn't this place, was it?
> 
> ...


Lol not that shop, that would be my luck tho. 


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Harold said:


> Yeah, avoid shops like that like the plague.
> 
> Wasn't this place, was it?
> 
> ...


The most hilarious quote i have from a shop monkey was "I'm almost an elite, so I know" in reference to why the mag21 was the fork all the pros use (this was in about 1997, several years after the mag21 was discontinued and the bomber had become the fork of choice)

This is why i try to get the WHY across, and not just blankly say "you should do X"


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Gym123 said:


> There was a saying in retail- "One happy customer will tell three people and one UNhappy customer will tell ten people".
> 
> That was before the internet and the many forums that exist, so amplify the latter by about a million. People tend to ignore the good and concentrate their attention on the negative.
> 
> ...


Point taken. I’m actually a general contractor, but admittedly now days my job is more paper work and driving than actually swinging a hammer. My fat free body weight right now is 160lbs so at 220 I’m pretty soft at around 28% body fat. This is coming from 265 so I’m headed in the right direction lol. I did get down to 200 last year, but have gained back to 220. I carry all of my fat in my stomach, and face. And even tho I’m quite tubby at the moment my cardio is pretty good, and according to my iPhone my v02 max is above average. I have avoided weight training because I always seem to get hurt somehow. Do you have anything you’d recommend training wide besides riding the bike to speed up my progress or it basically focus on my core, continue to clean up my diet and keep my seat in the saddle? 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> Yeah, I might guess that you gave them the impression that you were mostly going to ride around the streets and paths with your kiddo rather than pursue trail riding in any serious way, so they maybe over-indulged your newb wrongheaded thinking about bike fit/comfort when selling you.
> 
> Still, though, your saddle is just way too low. I'm surprised you aren't already experiencing some knee pain.
> 
> ...


I point out the flaws in peoples work for a living, I don’t ever mean it to be personal, but sometimes folks take it that way. The way I see it, I posted a picture of my fat ass on a bicycle and asked a bunch of hardcore mtb riders to critique me. A few “hey his core is soft” is par for the course, of course I was well aware of being a lard ass before I joined up here so It wasn’t actually a surprise lol. Folks are just trying to help, and I appreciate it. 


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Point taken. I’m actually a general contractor, but admittedly now days my job is more paper work and driving than actually swinging a hammer. My fat free body weight right now is 160lbs so at 220 I’m pretty soft at around 28% body fat. This is coming from 265 so I’m headed in the right direction lol. I did get down to 200 last year, but have gained back to 220. I carry all of my fat in my stomach, and face. And even tho I’m quite tubby at the moment my cardio is pretty good, and according to my iPhone my v02 max is above average. I have avoided weight training because I always seem to get hurt somehow. Do you have anything you’d recommend training wide besides riding the bike to speed up my progress or it basically focus on my core, continue to clean up my diet and keep my seat in the saddle?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


your iphone is only estimating anything. actually measuring v02max is an ordeal that requires specialized equipment. don't let it tell you if your cardio is any good or not.

bike fitness is fairly specialized, so unless you're at a high level and working on specific things, the best thing is riding more. at your stage, building time on the bike will matter more than most other things you can do. your butt will have to become accustomed to the saddle (the only thing that will help that is spending time on the saddle). you haven't ridden enough to even start thinking about how your butt feels yet. but you're going to start noticing stuff back there. some will be akin to bruising that you'll have to work through. some may be numbness that will be telling you that you need to make an adjustment or swap saddles. soreness is to be expected. numbness is bad.

yoga can help with flexibility and building your core. at the level you're at, I wouldn't say that getting into a bunch of lifting is going to get you _that_ much. if anything, muscle mass can be just as troublesome on the bike as mass from fat. you can lift some if you want, especially if you find that you're lacking strength in specific areas or you want to work on a really broad improvement in fitness (and not just bike fitness), but I don't think you need to focus there yet.

yes, getting leaner will help your stamina, but at this point, I think any exercise is good for you to get started. baby steps, right? for me, at least, biting off too much at once is a good way to burn myself out.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

@Harold wow, that was a hell of a read. No, not the place. Wow.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Did I miss something?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> Did I miss something?


the link I shared is a pretty insane read


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Ahh, I see.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Harold said:


> the link I shared is a pretty insane read


Yea, even my non-bike friends have enjoyed that one.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Man I thought the same thing when she sat on it. I’m hoping to get a year out of it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I played this smart and had kids a couple years after all of my friends. My two boys each have ~3-6 bikes and they're under six years old. I love it! And one pal is a serious mtb biker, so my kids are going to inherit 1/2 price nice as mtb bikes for years to come. It's awesome!

I actually scored a Diamond Back Cobra for my oldest son as a curb alert, totally free. New pads, new cables/housing, adjusted the RD and it's perfectly solid for a six year old. Plus, he loves snakes so the double snake name is awesome in his book AND it's orange, his favorite color!


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Bike shop is gonna swap for a new bike. I can either trade even into the correct side talon, or put the money towards a different bike. They’re a giant and trek dealer so if y’all have any recommendations, I’m all ears. 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

nayr497 said:


> I played this smart and had kids a couple years after all of my friends. My two boys each have ~3-6 bikes and they're under six years old. I love it! And one pal is a serious mtb biker, so my kids are going to inherit 1/2 price nice as mtb bikes for years to come. It's awesome!
> 
> I actually scored a Diamond Back Cobra for my oldest son as a curb alert, totally free. New pads, new cables/housing, adjusted the RD and it's perfectly solid for a six year old. Plus, he loves snakes so the double snake name is awesome in his book AND it's orange, his favorite color!


That’s an epic score!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> if y’all have any recommendations, I’m all ears.


the one that fits


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Harold said:


> the one that fits


And make sure they fit YOU to it - set the seat height right, raise the bars if needed, etc.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> And make sure they fit YOU to it - set the seat height right, raise the bars if needed, etc.


since threadless headset type systems don't generally offer much adjustment capability without swapping parts, expect some cost to raise the bars if that's necessary (most shops usually put the bars in the max-height position to start with, anyway).

that said, this is one of those adjustments that I _usually_ don't do right away, anyway. Ride the bike, get a feel for it, decide what needs adjusting up front, take some time deciding how I want to accomplish that (change stem, change bars, change both, etc).


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

smashysmashy said:


> And make sure they fit YOU to it - set the seat height right, raise the bars if needed, etc.



Based on their first seat height fit attempt I think I would find someone else to help with that.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Based on their first seat height fit attempt I think I would find someone else to help with that.


Perhaps. I'm still pretty baffled by that. Like, Costco would do more to fit you correctly.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Back to the topic of hand pressure, per se. As noted on the thread, there are quite a number of bike fit things that can vary the weight distribution between your hands and your bum.

But you can tell if it's a core strength issue if you feel hand pressure or pain once you get tired (independent of how long you have been riding). When you get tired, and your core is weak, you are tired of holding your upper body at the angle necessary to keep your elbows bent. So, typically, you straighten your arms so they become like tent poles or whatever support structure you prefer to visualize, and that makes good and sure that whatever weight there is to apply to the hands is fully applied. Voila, hand pressure and soreness.

When that happens, if you gut up a little bit and bend your elbows, which usually also requires bending forward a few degrees, you'll find that the hand pressure/pain alleviates almost immediately. And, that will force some core strengthening. And, it's safer to ride that way as you can steer better and absorb bumps better.

The reason I mention this is you may get a better fitting bike and still experience hand pressure/pain and feel like it's "back to the drawing board." And that may not be true. There are also various orthopedic issues that could come into play, as well as bike fit things. But try leaning forward, bending your elbows, and engaging your core first.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> Based on their first seat height fit attempt I think I would find someone else to help with that.


But they’re _world class, _dude…


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## Gym123 (Dec 4, 2021)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Point taken. I’m actually a general contractor, but admittedly now days my job is more paper work and driving than actually swinging a hammer. My fat free body weight right now is 160lbs so at 220 I’m pretty soft at around 28% body fat. This is coming from 265 so I’m headed in the right direction lol. I did get down to 200 last year, but have gained back to 220. I carry all of my fat in my stomach, and face. And even tho I’m quite tubby at the moment my cardio is pretty good, and according to my iPhone my v02 max is above average. I have avoided weight training because I always seem to get hurt somehow. Do you have anything you’d recommend training wide besides riding the bike to speed up my progress or it basically focus on my core, continue to clean up my diet and keep my seat in the saddle?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You don't need to work out with big weight- 15lb dumbbells, pushups and other body weight exercises are generally very safe. Muscle confusion is efficient and for my knee therapy, I have done lots of leg lifts, bridges (laying on my back) but knee extensions should be done carefully- I ended up with Chondromalacia because I was using too much weight. Flys can be done with 20lb and bench press, rowing exercise with weights, etc will all take weight off while adding strength and toning. Cut out simple carbs- no candy, white bread unless it was made with high quality flour and keep that to a minimum. Maintaining low blood sugar/insulin levels takes off weight and if you already walk, find places where the terrain is hilly and steep. Walking on flat surfaces is almost pointless- you get a much better workout on hills- if you live near a golf course that's not flat, walk there. If you golf, carry your clubs, rather than using a cart.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Gym123 said:


> You don't need to work out with big weight- 15lb dumbbells, pushups and other body weight exercises are generally very safe. Muscle confusion is efficient and for my knee therapy, I have done lots of leg lifts, bridges (laying on my back) but knee extensions should be done carefully- I ended up with Chondromalacia because I was using too much weight. Flys can be done with 20lb and bench press, rowing exercise with weights, etc will all take weight off while adding strength and toning. Cut out simple carbs- no candy, white bread unless it was made with high quality flour and keep that to a minimum. Maintaining low blood sugar/insulin levels takes off weight and if you already walk, find places where the terrain is hilly and steep. Walking on flat surfaces is almost pointless- you get a much better workout on hills- if you live near a golf course that's not flat, walk there. If you golf, carry your clubs, rather than using a cart.


Thank you! I have bee in walking/jogging some pretty hilly spots for a while, Which kind of gets boring over and over and that what got me started wanting a bicycle lol. So now I’m kind of alternating. If I really wanna get my heart rate up and do some hiit stuff, I’ll run. But if I wanna stay in that zone 2, slow burn for endurance I’ll ride my bike. 

I’ve managed to get really good at losing a substantial amount of weight fairly quickly, but I can’t keep it off. This time I’m going really slowly, maybe 1lb a week and making lifestyle changes that are easier to maintain than a drastic dietary shift. 

But the rub with all that stuff is, I don’t drink soda or eat candy, any bread I eat is seeded bread of whole grain, I eat a ton of fruits and veggies, but I’ve eaten that way for years. However I do consume one scoop of gelato once a week, and I’m notorious about eating cereal before bedtime. 

I have also cut most fatty meat out of my diet to lower my cholesterol and triglycerides. Which were still sky high when I was at 200lbs, in fact neither number moved at all when I lost 65lbs the first time and I was running 3-5 miles a day on top of weight training. 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Ok y’all, just got back from the bike shop and had a much different experience. They refunded the talon 2 and I bought a fathom 1 in medium. The bike immediately felt better, I love the dropper post for ease of getting on/off the bike (I know, old man problems) the brakes are awesome, it shifts nicer etc… just a much better feeling bike. 

They fitted the bike to me, installed some deity pedals, and a deity high rise handle bar. No more pressure on my hands, this thing feels like I could ride forever. I’m very pleased with the new bike. It was more than I wanted to spend, but I feel like this bike will last me a really long time so hopefully the price tag will be an incentive to continue to ride everyday and push towards being more fit.


























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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Ok y’all, just got back from the bike shop and had a much different experience. They refunded the talon 2 and I bought a fathom 1 in medium. The bike immediately felt better, I love the dropper post for ease of getting on/off the bike (I know, old man problems) the brakes are awesome, it shifts nicer etc… just a much better feeling bike.
> 
> They fitted the bike to me, installed some deity pedals, and a deity high rise handle bar. No more pressure on my hands, this thing feels like I could ride forever. I’m very pleased with the new bike. It was more than I wanted to spend, but I feel like this bike will last me a really long time so hopefully the price tag will be an incentive to continue to ride everyday and push towards being more fit.
> 
> ...


Yesssss!


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Nat said:


> Yesssss!


Thanks for all your help! This forum is awesome! Hopefully as I gain knowledge, I’ll be able to pay it forward someday. 


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Ok y’all, just got back from the bike shop and had a much different experience. They refunded the talon 2 and I bought a fathom 1 in medium. The bike immediately felt better, I love the dropper post for ease of getting on/off the bike (I know, old man problems) the brakes are awesome, it shifts nicer etc… just a much better feeling bike.
> 
> They fitted the bike to me, installed some deity pedals, and a deity high rise handle bar. No more pressure on my hands, this thing feels like I could ride forever. I’m very pleased with the new bike. It was more than I wanted to spend, but I feel like this bike will last me a really long time so hopefully the price tag will be an incentive to continue to ride everyday and push towards being more fit.
> 
> ...


Congrats! Great looking bike! Way to stay in the conversation here and learn from it. Glad the outcome was good for you. We look forward to seeing and hearing about your adventures, and to your participation in the forum.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

sgltrak said:


> Congrats! Great looking bike! Way to stay in the conversation here and learn from it. Glad the outcome was good for you. We look forward to seeing and hearing about your adventures, and to your participation in the forum.


Thank you! These new grippy pedals are wild. My kiddo crashed her bike, and in my haste to get off my bike, I almost fell over because my feet were stuck to the pedals . That will definitely take some getting used to 


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thanks for all your help! This forum is awesome! Hopefully as I gain knowledge, I’ll be able to pay it forward someday.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Happy trails, dude


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thank you! These new grippy pedals are wild. My kiddo crashed her bike, and in my haste to get off my bike, I almost fell over because my feet were stuck to the pedals . That will definitely take some getting used to
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, they do stick. Just wait until you get some proper MTB shoes. Then, you'll really be "clipped in," and benefiting from the stiffer soles and toe protection.

For a while after I got shoes (already had pinned pedals), I would have some abrupt stops here and there and my knee would bash painfully into my handlebar, usually clipping a shifter or brake or dropper mount, right on or above the kneecap. Ow. 

It had never happened before, and I checked to make sure my knee wouldn't hit the bar in ordinary riding.

Finally, I figured that, like unclipping clipless pedals, I was raising my foot off the pedal to disengage when I did those stops and that's what was causing me to bash my knee. Over time, and with consciousness of it, that stopped happening. Probably also helped that my shoe soles wore a little.

Anyway, you do need to make a small effort to "unclip" from pinned pedals.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Also, glad it ended well for you. You can definitely grow into that bike.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Nice bike! Glad that it worked out well for you.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> Yeah, they do stick. Just wait until you get some proper MTB shoes. Then, you'll really be "clipped in," and benefiting from the stiffer soles and toe protection.
> 
> For a while after I got shoes (already had pinned pedals), I would have some abrupt stops here and there and my knee would bash painfully into my handlebar, usually clipping a shifter or brake or dropper mount, right on or above the kneecap. Ow.
> 
> ...


They’re definitely going to take some getting used too, as well as the dropper post. That thing is awesome, but Will tAke some getting used to for sure. 


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Read the whole thread. Congrats OP. And nice work in this thread - great attitude throughout. Super stoked for you and your daughter. Nice to see a good ending to this story. Now…go and wear out that drivetrain


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Thanks guys! 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Read the whole thread. Congrats OP. And nice work in this thread - great attitude throughout. Super stoked for you and your daughter. Nice to see a good ending to this story. Now…go and wear out that drivetrain


Thanks Mike! I put 4 miles on it tonight. I think I liked the saddle on talon better but I’m gonna give this one a week or so and see if I still feel that way. It’s really been fun riding with the kiddo, as soon as her training wheels come off, she’ll be hard to keep up with. 


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thanks Mike! I put 4 miles on it tonight. I think I liked the saddle on talon better but I’m gonna give this one a week or so and see if I still feel that way. It’s really been fun riding with the kiddo, as soon as her training wheels come off, she’ll be hard to keep up with.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The touch points (saddle, grips and pedals) are all very personal and, thankfully, not too expensive. Don’t be too concerned if you want to swap one or more of them out.

That said, I like Specialized saddles. WTB are decent as well, and less expensive, generally.

The shops in my city who sell Specialized saddles all offer a no questions asked, 30 day full refund return policy. Maybe check them out. They are different sizes, and can be precisely selected after measuring your sit bones at the shop. No need to go expensive. The Comp or even Sport level for each model, should be plenty good for you.

PS - I almost exclusively ride now with my 21 year old daughter. Mountain biking provides an incredible opportunity to spend some quality time with your loved one. Plus exercise! Lots and lots of boxes checked, with thick black checks. Keep it up, but don’t push her too hard! Let her be the one who is longing to get back out to the mountains.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

mtnbkrmike said:


> The touch points (saddle, grips and pedals) are all very personal and, thankfully, not too expensive. Don’t be too concerned if you want to swap one or more of them out.
> 
> That said, I like Specialized saddles. WTB are decent as well, and less expensive, generally.
> 
> ...


Excellent parenting advice. I’ll check our the saddles if I haven’t learned to love this one in a week or so 


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Excellent parenting advice. I’ll check our the saddles if I haven’t learned to love this one in a week or so
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One other thing about pinned pedals. Whille they make running shoes, "trainers," and even hiking shoes fairly effective, they, and mountain biking in general, really tear up shoes that aren't made for it, and a fair number that are.

Once you start trail riding, you're probably going to find that you go through a pair of running shoes in a matter of months, like fewer than six. So, while mtb shoes seem like an expense that is needed only for the dedicated mtb'er, they really make a lot of sense for anyone that rides with any frequency. And they improve the experience pretty dramatically.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> One other thing about pinned pedals. Whille they make running shoes, "trainers," and even hiking shoes fairly effective, they, and mountain biking in general, really tear up shoes that aren't made for it, and a fair number that are.
> 
> Once you start trail riding, you're probably going to find that you go through a pair of running shoes in a matter of months, like fewer than six. So, while mtb shoes seem like an expense that is needed only for the dedicated mtb'er, they really make a lot of sense for anyone that rides with any frequency. And they improve the experience pretty dramatically.


I’ve been looking for some, it I can’t seem to find any 4E width lol. It’s like all y’all dudes have skinny feet 


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Look at the pins on different pedals. There are pins that are shorter, rounded or stubby instead of longer and short.
I use pedals with regular running shoes with open tread. Pedals with the right pins *do not cut up my shoes or my shins. *My feet totally stick. Wellgo has stubby pin pedals. Origon8 Slimline are some I use. Slimline Platform – Origin8.bike There is technique. Weight on the pedals with your heels low when tiding over rocks/roots.

Lots of guys never figure this out.


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## CTM (Dec 18, 2021)

Nice work OP getting it sorted. Bike will be much nicer longer term. 

Why do bike shops always set brake levers all the way into the grip? I can't think of any situation where that is best..


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thanks Mike! I put 4 miles on it tonight. I think I liked the saddle on talon better but I’m gonna give this one a week or so and see if I still feel that way. It’s really been fun riding with the kiddo, as soon as her training wheels come off, she’ll be hard to keep up with.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My recommendation with saddles is to give them some real time. If you're experiencing numbness at any point, that's a quick indication that the saddle is wrong for you. If some slight adjustments don't improve things for you on that front, then don't waste your time, replace that ass hatchet. But if it's just soreness and/or different pressure than you're used to, then give it even more time before deciding for sure. Sometimes it's taken me more than a hundred miles to decide on a saddle.



CTM said:


> Why do bike shops always set brake levers all the way into the grip? I can't think of any situation where that is best..


I don't think that's how the levers wind up in that spot. This will probably vary from shop to shop (and their attention to small details), but the lateral position of the controls is set there before the bike is ever even boxed up. Most shops aren't making adjustments to their positioning aside from setting a vague angle that's more-or-less where most ppl would be comfortable-ish. So rather than the shops putting the lever clamps right at the edge of the grips, it's more likely that the people doing the assembly are overlooking that small adjustment. Probably because the ppl above them aren't making that a priority item on the setup checklist.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

eb1888 said:


> Look at the pins on different pedals. There are pins that are shorter, rounded or stubby instead of longer and short.
> I use pedals with regular running shoes with open tread. Pedals with the right pins *do not cut up my shoes or my shins. *My feet totally stick. Wellgo has stubby pin pedals. Origon8 Slimline are some I use. Slimline Platform – Origin8.bike There is technique. Weight on the pedals with your heels low when tiding over rocks/roots.
> 
> Lots of guys never figure this out.


The difference between being able to ride a bike, and being able to RIDE a bike is mind boggling. I’ve got some rocks and roots in my yard that I’m gonna “graduate” up to this week, and kind of get a feel for. 

Yesterday I got brave enough to hit the drop from the road back into my yard lol. I may have gotta 8” of air there at one point. Wild times at 36 yrs old 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Harold said:


> My recommendation with saddles is to give them some real time. If you're experiencing numbness at any point, that's a quick indication that the saddle is wrong for you. If some slight adjustments don't improve things for you on that front, then don't waste your time, replace that ass hatchet. But if it's just soreness and/or different pressure than you're used to, then give it even more time before deciding for sure. Sometimes it's taken me more than a hundred miles to decide on a saddle.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that's how the levers wind up in that spot. This will probably vary from shop to shop (and their attention to small details), but the lateral position of the controls is set there before the bike is ever even boxed up. Most shops aren't making adjustments to their positioning aside from setting a vague angle that's more-or-less where most ppl would be comfortable-ish. So rather than the shops putting the lever clamps right at the edge of the grips, it's more likely that the people doing the assembly are overlooking that small adjustment. Probably because the ppl above them aren't making that a priority item on the setup checklist.


I’ll definitely give it some time. I had ridden maybe 20 miles on the talon saddle the week I had it, and experienced no soreness whatsoever, no chafing etc. it’s like I got lucky and the first saddle I ever sat, was the perfect one lol. I’m not sore today either so maybe I’ll be good either way. 


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I’ll definitely give it some time. I had ridden maybe 20 miles on the talon saddle the week I had it, and experienced no soreness whatsoever, no chafing etc. it’s like I got lucky and the first saddle I ever sat, was the perfect one lol. I’m not sore today either so maybe I’ll be good either way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yknow, as off as your saddle height was on the old bike, it's probably that as much as anything that's making the saddle a bit less comfortable. You're more "on" it. And, it seems you are already increasing your ride length/duration and that's where saddle soreness sets in, even if it fits you pretty well. So, give it some time, and, until you get used to it, expect longer rides to produce a little soreness. And, the hand pressure/pain will probably resurface a little bit, so remember to engage your core.

And, the dropper is a good way to "rest" on your bike when you're standing still, so you can put your feet on the ground. If you remember to drop it when you stop on a trail, and maybe downshift a couple of gears, that can make mount/dismount and starting up again a bit easier, especially if you stop because a trail is challenging you some and you need to start back up in a chunky/rooty section.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> Yknow, as off as your saddle height was on the old bike, it's probably that as much as anything that's making the saddle a bit less comfortable. You're more "on" it. And, it seems you are already increasing your ride length/duration and that's where saddle soreness sets in, even if it fits you pretty well. So, give it some time, and, until you get used to it, expect longer rides to produce a little soreness. And, the hand pressure/pain will probably resurface a little bit, so remember to engage your core.
> 
> And, the dropper is a good way to "rest" on your bike when you're standing still, so you can put your feet on the ground. If you remember to drop it when you stop on a trail, and maybe downshift a couple of gears, that can make mount/dismount and starting up again a bit easier, especially if you stop because a trail is challenging you some and you need to start back up in a chunky/rooty section.


So I can just down shift a couple clicks and when I get back on there it will go to that gear? I know that’s a silly question, but as a kid on a cheap bike, that was a sure fire way to drop a chain or go to pedal and nothing would be there. I guess I should probably just try it and see what happens lol. 


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

dryfirecharlie said:


> So I can just down shift a couple clicks and when I get back on there it will go to that gear? I know that’s a silly question, but as a kid on a cheap bike, that was a sure fire way to drop a chain or go to pedal and nothing would be there. I guess I should probably just try it and see what happens lol.



No don't do that 

Pretty sure he meant that you should complete the downshifts before stopping. That way you're in a reasonable gear to start out on.


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## Gym123 (Dec 4, 2021)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thank you! I have bee in walking/jogging some pretty hilly spots for a while, Which kind of gets boring over and over and that what got me started wanting a bicycle lol. So now I’m kind of alternating. If I really wanna get my heart rate up and do some hiit stuff, I’ll run. But if I wanna stay in that zone 2, slow burn for endurance I’ll ride my bike.
> 
> I’ve managed to get really good at losing a substantial amount of weight fairly quickly, but I can’t keep it off. This time I’m going really slowly, maybe 1lb a week and making lifestyle changes that are easier to maintain than a drastic dietary shift.
> 
> ...


Eat the Gelato, skip the cereal. Carbs without exertion is just calory intake.

If you want to do HIIT on your bike, go ahead- people might think you're a maniac, but that's OK. If you watch cycling videos for weight loss, that's how they train people- start out slow, increase pace/difficulty, then go all out for awhile before slowing and repeating, but in random order. 

Fruits have sugar, but it's not Fructose and one difference is that the whole body metabolizes non- Fructose sugars whereas, Fructose is mainly metabolized in the liver and kidneys, leading to specific issues. 



https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/fructose-metabolism


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> No don't do that
> 
> Pretty sure he meant that you should complete the downshifts before stopping. That way you're in a reasonable gear to start out on.


Hahahahaha. Point taken 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Gym123 said:


> Eat the Gelato, skip the cereal. Carbs without exertion is just calory intake.
> 
> If you want to do HIIT on your bike, go ahead- people might think you're a maniac, but that's OK. If you watch cycling videos for weight loss, that's how they train people- start out slow, increase pace/difficulty, then go all out for awhile before slowing and repeating, but in random order.
> 
> ...


Thanks. The hankering for cereal comes about 9pm. I think I’m just gonna start going to bed when that kicks in. I have been working with a nutritionist, and a meal prep chef, trying to instill solid eating habits that I can sustain, instead of the all or nothing diet that I’m used to. The last time I lost all the weight, I ate chicken breast, spinach and brown rice for 6 months straight for basically every meal. I weighed everything I ate, tracked all my macros which was easy because it was always the same, but for me I can’t sustain that long term and always end up eating a cheeseburger and going off the wagon. 

My best friend has eaten the same 6 meals everyday for the last 5 years. He’s 49, does CrossFit twice a day and is freaking shredded, I however am not that disciplined lol. 


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

My diet is far from perfect and I've never met a cookie I didn't like, but one of the biggest things that helps me maintain a healthy weight is not to drink any calories. I drink water 95% of the time. I don't like beer and I would be surprised if I have more than one or two sodas and/or fruit juices in a year.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

sgltrak said:


> My diet is far from perfect and I've never met a cookie I didn't like, but one of the biggest things that helps me maintain a healthy weight is not to drink any calories. I drink water 95% of the time. I don't like beer and I would be surprised if I have more than one or two sodas and/or fruit juices in a year.


With the exception of skim milk, I’m in the same boat. I may drink 6 beers a year and if I have a soda, it’s a Coke Zero and even then only on occasion. I just really really over eat. I don’t do it all the time, but when I do… 

Lately tho, I tend to think of how bad it’s gonna suck to run, or ride with a big bloated full stomach and that seems to help lol. As long as I know that I’m gonna run or ride regardless, but as soon as I start thinking about skipping, then it’s over and there are no more consequences. 


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

sgltrak said:


> My diet is far from perfect and I've never met a cookie I didn't like, but one of the biggest things that helps me maintain a healthy weight is not to drink any calories. I drink water 95% of the time. I don't like beer and I would be surprised if I have more than one or two sodas and/or fruit juices in a year.


Definitely true about drinking calories.

When I was younger, I could drink sugar-free "cokes" and avoid that (substituting beer, of course), but it appears that sugar-free drinks and sugar substitutes still play with your sugar metabolism and, particularly as you age, interfere with weight loss and can contribute to metabolic syndrome just as surely as sugar.

As your fitness level improves and you lose some weight, you can probably ride "fasted" without much trouble, that is, without having eaten in hours. You may not be at peak energy output, but you won't bonk out either. It took me a while to figure that out. And, I find a good ride is a good appetite suppressant. Note that I'm not talking about racing or "epic" rides, you should bring some food on those, etc., but rather just a daily ride at normal exertion levels.

So, you can ride in lieu of a meal (like lunch break, before breakfast, or instead of a 5-6pm dinner) and when and if you eat afterward, you may well find yourself eating something pretty small, or maybe a recovery drink and that's all. For me, it helps with "portion control" and overall caloric intake, while burning a few along the way.


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## Nocturnalnature71 (May 29, 2021)

Gym123 said:


> Eat the Gelato, skip the cereal. Carbs without exertion is just calory intake.
> 
> If you want to do HIIT on your bike, go ahead- people might think you're a maniac, but that's OK. If you watch cycling videos for weight loss, that's how they train people- start out slow, increase pace/difficulty, then go all out for awhile before slowing and repeating, but in random order.
> 
> ...


Much of the sugar in fruit is indeed fructose.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

I wouldn't focus on weight or food/calories, just on fitness.


sgltrak said:


> My diet is far from perfect and I've never met a cookie I didn't like, but one of the biggest things that helps me maintain a healthy weight is not to drink any calories. I drink water 95% of the time. I don't like beer and I would be surprised if I have more than one or two sodas and/or fruit juices in a year.


I drink lots of calories.

I have 2L of lemonade in the water pack while riding. Plus gummies and cookies for emergency (don't usually eat them). I'm on a mostly carb diet, haha.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Nocturnalnature71 said:


> Much of the sugar in fruit is indeed fructose.


That's why its named that no? People are wary of "high fructose corn syrup" cause of campaign to stop it's use, but as with everything diet related, it gets complicated fast and short of "cyanide bad" there are very few real "rules".


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## Nocturnalnature71 (May 29, 2021)

smashysmashy said:


> That's why its named that no? People are wary of "high fructose corn syrup" cause of campaign to stop it's use, but as with everything diet related, it gets complicated fast and short of "cyanide bad" there are very few real "rules".


Yeah, I'm assuming with his screen name he probably just made a typo, but I did want to point out that if someone is looking to avoid fructose then eating fruit definitely isn't the way to go about it.

Oh, and a huge congratulations to the OP for getting his bike dilemma sorted out.
I'm surpised when you rode that tiny thing you didn't get visions of a chimpanzee humping a tricycle like in the circus 😉.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Nocturnalnature71 said:


> Yeah, I'm assuming with his screen name he probably just made a typo, but I did want to point out that if someone is looking to avoid fructose then eating fruit definitely isn't the way to go about it.
> 
> Oh, and a huge congratulations to the OP for getting his bike dilemma sorted out.
> I'm surpised when you rode that tiny thing you didn't get visions of a chimpanzee humping a tricycle like in the circus .


Lol I was the chimp in this circus. New bike feels much better, tho I do feel like these tires give more rolling resistance on the asphalt. My other tires were aired to 40psi, these are 28 and 25 so it feels like the asphalt is sticky lol


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## Nocturnalnature71 (May 29, 2021)

Oh, and if that's a can of dip in your pocket I'd strongly encourage you not to have a pinch in when riding. 
The effects of nicotine can be profound on your ability to maintain a serious effort once your heart rate starts to climb.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Nocturnalnature71 said:


> Oh, and if that's a can of dip in your pocket I'd strongly encourage you not to have a pinch in when riding.
> The effects of nicotine can be profound on your ability to maintain a serious effort once your heart rate starts to climb.


It’s not dip, at least not any more. I’ve switched to the nicotine pouches. First 6mg per pouch and now 3mg. I’m gonna switch big red gum in a couple weeks. 

Riding with a pouch in definitely makes the ride harder, I did it on a joy ride the other day and I didn’t keep it in very long. 


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

dryfirecharlie said:


> The difference between being able to ride a bike, and being able to RIDE a bike is mind boggling. I’ve got some rocks and roots in my yard that I’m gonna “graduate” up to this week, and kind of get a feel for.
> 
> Yesterday I got brave enough to hit the drop from the road back into my yard lol. I may have gotta 8” of air there at one point. Wild times at 36 yrs old
> 
> ...


Congrats on the upgrade. Keep an eye on the fork once you begin riding trails. Early versions seemed to develop a 'clunk' noise. Giant warrantied them. Should be sorted now.
For your seat. It takes a few miles to toughen up your ass every season when you begin riding again. For all of us. Too much early miles can get you saddle sores.
Here's a video on keeping your heels low to stick to your pedals.





And one on setting up and riding through corners.






Easy riding at this stage will help you build endurance. 4 hours a couple days a week will be noticeable right away.
Easy pace.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> That's why its named that no? People are wary of "high fructose corn syrup" cause of campaign to stop it's use, but as with everything diet related, it gets complicated fast and short of "cyanide bad" there are very few real "rules".


yeah, HUGE difference between actual fruit and HFCS is everything _else_ that's in the item in question. especially the fiber in whole fruit. that fiber slows the body's absorption of the sugars dramatically and prevents the good 'ol sugar spike that likes to wreck your pancreas and insulin production. the other nutrients in the fruit that round the rest of it out also play a role in how your body metabolizes it.

HFCS is used as an ingredient in more heavily refined and processed foods. this makes it really easy for your body to access those calories, so you get a sugar spike in your blood, which results in an insulin spike, and those huge fluctuations will tear you up. you can get the same thing with foods that replace HFCS with cane sugar or beet sugar or whatever. major difference there is that HFCS is cheaper so the manufacturers of heavily processed foods like to put it in more things.

when I get a sugary beverage, I have a preference for those with cane sugar instead of HFCS because the additional cost encourages me to buy less, to consume less in a sitting (because the containers are probably smaller), and to purchase it less frequently. there was a period of a few years where I was buying and drinking a 20oz soda during every work shift. during that period of time, I packed on extra pounds that I still haven't managed to get rid of. that terrible belly fat that's the hardest to burn off. my riding fitness is at least as good now as it was before I did that to myself, though.

the fitness and the activity is the important part, as mentioned already. our bodies are so good at preserving our body fat for times of famine that once you put it on, getting rid of all of it for good is next to impossible. what you _can_ do at a sustainable level though is to identify your bad habits and weaknesses and take realistic steps to improve them. when it comes to exercise, key for me is actually enjoying my time doing it. I absolutely despise the gym. There have been periods of time where I've used it when I had to, but as soon as I reach that goal, I'm getting the hell out of the gym because it's hell. Exercising in a gym (including lifting, cardio machines, etc) is absolutely not sustainable exercise for me. I hate running less than I hate the gym (and I do hate running). I ride bikes, play soccer in the old fat guys league locally, and I hike and do longer walks. Those are the things I do for exercise and I enjoy them. So I'm more likely to do them more.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Lol I was the chimp in this circus. New bike feels much better, tho I do feel like these tires give more rolling resistance on the asphalt. My other tires were aired to 40psi, these are 28 and 25 so it feels like the asphalt is sticky lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


While you're riding on pavement, feel free to air em back up to 30-40. But 28/25 R/F sounds about right for trails.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> While you're riding on pavement, feel free to air em back up to 30-40. But 28/25 R/F sounds about right for trails.


Thanks. If it stops raining today I’ll air them back up for tonight’s ride, if not then it will be tomorrow. 

I have done some research and have picked my first trail, Im gonna try to go this week during the day so hopefully it won’t be as busy. It’s rated as beginner and all the reviews say, it’s easy peezy so that’s gonna be my first trial run. It’s also only 1 mile long and loops back to the parking lot lol. 


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thanks. If it stops raining today I’ll air them back up for tonight’s ride, if not then it will be tomorrow.
> 
> I have done some research and have picked my first trail, Im gonna try to go this week during the day so hopefully it won’t be as busy. It’s rated as beginner and all the reviews say, it’s easy peezy so that’s gonna be my first trial run. It’s also only 1 mile long and loops back to the parking lot lol.
> 
> ...


sounds like something good to try. if it's too much, it's a quick trip back to the parking lot and if you love it, you can do it again until you're tired.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thanks. If it stops raining today I’ll air them back up for tonight’s ride, if not then it will be tomorrow.
> 
> I have done some research and have picked my first trail, Im gonna try to go this week during the day so hopefully it won’t be as busy. It’s rated as beginner and all the reviews say, it’s easy peezy so that’s gonna be my first trial run. It’s also only 1 mile long and loops back to the parking lot lol.
> 
> ...


Hope it's nice and woodsy. That's the best part. You're gonna love it.

On the tire pressure thing, as you probably know, riding your "knobbies" on the street wears them out faster, but, pressuring them up will slow that a little and make them feel better on pavement.

But your tires are your first "level" of suspension and can go a long way to making trails easier to ride, with better traction. So, try both pressures on the trail, see what difference it makes.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> Hope it's nice and woodsy. That's the best part. You're gonna love it.


I love being outside man, from basically the end of this month until the middle of January I’ll spend all of my free time in a tree stand with a bow in my hand. I’m thinking about incorporating my bike into getting in and out of my hunting spots. That would be sick. 


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I love being outside man, from basically the end of this month until the middle of January I’ll spend all of my free time in a tree stand with a bow in my hand. I’m thinking about incorporating my bike into getting in and out of my hunting spots. That would be sick.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, I'm a frustrated outdoorsman and I don't get to hunt or fish or do a whole lot outside, but MTB scratches the itch.

One kind of bummer, though, is you have to pay attention to the trail, even on easy ones, so it's not quite like hiking where you can just lollygag around and soak in the scenery. You can, but not quite the way you might think.

A couple of tips for your first trail ride: try to look ahead several yards so you can see what's coming (instead of looking at your front wheel), and, if there's something you don't want to hit, don't stare at it, you'll hit it. Look where you want to go.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> Yeah, I'm a frustrated outdoorsman and I don't get to hunt or fish or do a whole lot outside, but MTB scratches the itch.
> 
> One kind of bummer, though, is you have to pay attention to the trail, even on easy ones, so it's not quite like hiking where you can just lollygag around and soak in the scenery. You can, but not quite the way you might think.
> 
> A couple of tips for your first trail ride: try to look ahead several yards so you can see what's coming (instead of looking at your front wheel), and, if there's something you don't want to hit, don't stare at it, you'll hit it. Look where you want to go.


Those are top tips! Sorry you’re not getting to hunt/fish, not sure what if so if I didn’t get to hunt a day here and there. 

I’m pretty good about paying attention ahead of me and not fixating in the front tire, but I’ve also never been on a trail either so that may go straight out the window lol. 


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## Gym123 (Dec 4, 2021)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thanks. The hankering for cereal comes about 9pm. I think I’m just gonna start going to bed when that kicks in. I have been working with a nutritionist, and a meal prep chef, trying to instill solid eating habits that I can sustain, instead of the all or nothing diet that I’m used to. The last time I lost all the weight, I ate chicken breast, spinach and brown rice for 6 months straight for basically every meal. I weighed everything I ate, tracked all my macros which was easy because it was always the same, but for me I can’t sustain that long term and always end up eating a cheeseburger and going off the wagon.
> 
> My best friend has eaten the same 6 meals everyday for the last 5 years. He’s 49, does CrossFit twice a day and is freaking shredded, I however am not that disciplined lol.
> 
> ...


All of the training and diet people I watch or talk with say it's OK to cheat, occasionally. 

I wouldn't last a week if I always ate the same meal or using the same few ingredients but how it's prepped can make all of the difference in whether someone sticks with it or dumps it quickly. I can eat Mexican/Latin, Asian/Indian and many other foods every day, that would be 'ethnic' from the 'I ONLY eat American food!' standpoint. Would I? Probably not but when I'm in the middle of a batch of a good Curry or other dish, I'm in for life and none of those need to be unhealthy. I use my Wok frequently, even for meals that aren't remotely Asian- it's a great way to cook quickly with a minimum of added fat. I eat far more Chicken thigh that breast- much more flavor and the fat can be drained off.


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## Gym123 (Dec 4, 2021)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Lol I was the chimp in this circus. New bike feels much better, tho I do feel like these tires give more rolling resistance on the asphalt. My other tires were aired to 40psi, these are 28 and 25 so it feels like the asphalt is sticky lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You do have more rolling resistance with those tires, but you could look at it as if it's just another part of training- more resistance=more work=faster results, if you breathe & eat right and stretch regularly. I don't ride far, but when I'm done, I walk funny for awhile because my legs are tired and after I recover, I really notice a difference in leg strength.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Gym123 said:


> You do have more rolling resistance with those tires, but you could look at it as if it's just another part of training- more resistance=more work=faster results, if you breathe & eat right and stretch regularly. I don't ride far, but when I'm done, I walk funny for awhile because my legs are tired and after I recover, I really notice a difference in leg strength.


What’s “not far?” I’ve been riding between two and three miles every afternoon, but it seems like everyone else is putting in 5+ everyday 


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

dryfirecharlie said:


> What’s “not far?” I’ve been riding between two and three miles every afternoon, but it seems like everyone else is putting in 5+ everyday
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Far is highly subjective, but also highly dependent on terrain. 5km of rolling blue trail off road is often more exercise than 25km on the road.

Don't worry about what anyone else is doing in terms of actual miles. Progress at your own pace.

What I do right now trying to get back from "covid work from home shape" (which on the scale of 1 being someone who cant walk a flight of stairs, and 10 being nino schurter, is still an 8) is ride a loop at lunch and try to get faster each run.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

smashysmashy said:


> Far is highly subjective, but also highly dependent on terrain. 5km of rolling blue trail off road is often more exercise than 25km on the road.
> 
> Don't worry about what anyone else is doing in terms of actual miles. Progress at your own pace.
> 
> What I do right now trying to get back from "covid work from home shape" (which on the scale of 1 being someone who cant walk a flight of stairs, and 10 being nino schurter, is still an 8) is ride a loop at lunch and try to get faster each run.


My loop around the neighborhood is 1.7 miles but 65% of it is a pretty steep up hill climb. Usually one loop and then a couple back and forths in 1/4 mile increments is all I have time to do in the afternoons. I just got back in tonight and it was 2.7 miles 276 feet of elevation gain 
22 minutes and change. I’ve rode it faster but tonight i just wanted to get some blood moving around before bed. 


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

As a newcomer, basically any time in the saddle is good time. At some point, you'll plateau a little bit and need to break things up by riding longer and slower, or shorter and faster, or some mixture.

One of the unique things about mountain biking, to me, is how mentally engaging it is. Even on easy trails, you have to keep your wits about you. You can check out the rider down thread for all the people who crash on the easy stuff and may not know exactly why, because they weren't paying attention. Biking on the road starts to bore me pretty quickly, because I can mostly just zone out (I am lucky to live where I can avoid dangerous traffic for the most part), although there is a certain attraction to that, too.

Another thing that's interesting is that you'll have bouts of intense exertion combined with an adrenaline rush that really gets things pumping. And, as you learn to tackle features and climbs and things successfully, you do get a little buzz of accomplishment.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> As a newcomer, basically any time in the saddle is good time. At some point, you'll plateau a little bit and need to break things up by riding longer and slower, or shorter and faster, or some mixture.
> 
> One of the unique things about mountain biking, to me, is how mentally engaging it is. Even on easy trails, you have to keep your wits about you. You can check out the rider down thread for all the people who crash on the easy stuff and may not know exactly why, because they weren't paying attention. Biking on the road starts to bore me pretty quickly, because I can mostly just zone out (I am lucky to live where I can avoid dangerous traffic for the most part), although there is a certain attraction to that, too.
> 
> Another thing that's interesting is that you'll have bouts of intense exertion combined with an adrenaline rush that really gets things pumping. And, as you learn to tackle features and climbs and things successfully, you do get a little buzz of accomplishment.


I’m eventually gonna have to bite the bullet and hit one of the trails I have picked out. I keep hopping to convince one of my buddies to sit with me, but they’re not going to lol, so I’ll have to go alone and hopefully meet another newbie out there to ride with. 


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## Nocturnalnature71 (May 29, 2021)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I’m eventually gonna have to bite the bullet and hit one of the trails I have picked out. I keep hopping to convince one of my buddies to sit with me, but they’re not going to lol, so I’ll have to go alone and hopefully meet another newbie out there to ride with.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Post up your general location and you might find a wing man on this site.

If you're ever near Roanoke Va. I'd be happy to take you on an adventure tailored for your skill level.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I’m eventually gonna have to bite the bullet and hit one of the trails I have picked out. I keep hopping to convince one of my buddies to sit with me, but they’re not going to lol, so I’ll have to go alone and hopefully meet another newbie out there to ride with.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As long as it's a "green" trail, you'll be fine on your own. Just proceed with caution until you have ridden a trail a couple of times.

You can use sites like trailforks.com and mtbproject.com to look at maps (and track your ride/locate yourself on the trail) and they have elevation profiles so you can see if you are in for any big steeps for any new trails.

One warning though: cell phone and gopro video of trails makes steep things appear deceptively flat. You can find a lot of "trail tour" videos out there, but they will inevitably minimize the climbs and descents, so you can get yourself into trouble that way. It won't be real trouble if you approach the trail with caution, but you'll find yourself walking your bike probably more than you want to.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> As long as it's a "green" trail, you'll be fine on your own. Just proceed with caution until you have ridden a trail a couple of times.
> 
> You can use sites like trailforks.com and mtbproject.com to look at maps (and track your ride/locate yourself on the trail) and they have elevation profiles so you can see if you are in for any big steeps for any new trails.
> 
> One warning though: cell phone and gopro video of trails makes steep things appear deceptively flat. You can find a lot of "trail tour" videos out there, but they will inevitably minimize the climbs and descents, so you can get yourself into trouble that way. It won't be real trouble if you approach the trail with caution, but you'll find yourself walking your bike probably more than you want to.


Thanks man, that a top tip. I’m gonna stick to the bay trails for a while and then go up a level and probably do plenty of walking the bike until I get it dialed. I have to be careful because ultimately this is about fitness, not winning gold at the X games, so I’ll leave to swallow my pride and not take big risks lol. My wife doesn’t work so if an injury kept me sidelined for 6 weeks that would be devastating to my business. 


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thanks man, that a top tip. I’m gonna stick to the bay trails for a while and then go up a level and probably do plenty of walking the bike until I get it dialed. I have to be careful because ultimately this is about fitness, not winning gold at the X games, so I’ll leave to swallow my pride and not take big risks lol. My wife doesn’t work so if an injury kept me sidelined for 6 weeks that would be devastating to my business.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep, pride is a dangerous thing. From the exercise standpoint, walking your bike up a hill (or down it) does the same amount of work as riding it, so you're still getting some exercise, but you're not outputting the same power, so it's a bit less intense. I remind myself of that when I find myself walking and my pride injured.

One other great thing about cycling, compared to say, running, is that if you get a few miles away from home or the trailhead and find yourself pooping out for whatever reason, you can usually make it back to the start by riding casually without it becoming a complete death march, and do it in a reasonable time. Sometimes those hills and chunky sections on the return leg can be rough, though.


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## Gym123 (Dec 4, 2021)

dryfirecharlie said:


> What’s “not far?” I’ve been riding between two and three miles every afternoon, but it seems like everyone else is putting in 5+ everyday
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


First couple of rides after messing up my leg were 1-2 miles, just to get an idea of whether I liked the MTB and find out how my leg felt and- a few weeks of therapy, I went for a ride that takes me toward Lake Michigan on an old RR track bed that has been paved for bikers, walkers, runners, etc. My plan was to ride until I felt that I needed to turn around in order to make it back all the way and when I reached that point, I was at the South end of the marina, more than 7.5 miles away. At that point, I realized that I still had to make it back, but the return took less time than riding down there. This year, I have mostly ridden about 5 miles each time, but I ride that distance differently each time- one time, I may go for pedaling without coasting, might pedal harder and hit higher BPM or pedal consistently in different gears, to feel the effects on my legs. 

When I was riding my road bike a lot, I would start in a park that's close to where i live now and ride North on some streets that never have heavy traffic. This was on my days off, so it didn't matter how long the rides took and that's good because I would be out for 3-4 hours and ride more than 50 miles. Riding the MTB 50 miles would be a tough one, especially 30 years after those long rides. I'm 65- I would love to take the same routes, but the way people drive now, I don't want to ride on ANY roads with cars.


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## Gym123 (Dec 4, 2021)

TwiceHorn said:


> Yep, pride is a dangerous thing. From the exercise standpoint, walking your bike up a hill (or down it) does the same amount of work as riding it, so you're still getting some exercise, but you're not outputting the same power, so it's a bit less intense. I remind myself of that when I find myself walking and my pride injured.
> 
> One other great thing about cycling, compared to say, running, is that if you get a few miles away from home or the trailhead and find yourself pooping out for whatever reason, you can usually make it back to the start by riding casually without it becoming a complete death march, and do it in a reasonable time. Sometimes those hills and chunky sections on the return leg can be rough, though.


Walking up a hill with a bike is far better than riding, falling, riding, falling, rinse, lather, repeat because it's too steep or the legs are gone. 

"I used to ride my bike to school 20 miles uphill, both ways. It had square wheels and that was the way we liked it".


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Gym123 said:


> Walking up a hill with a bike is far better than riding, falling, riding, falling, rinse, lather, repeat because it's too steep or the legs are gone.
> 
> "I used to ride my bike to school 20 miles uphill, both ways. It had square wheels and that was the way we liked it".


I guess I need to chill with my ego and admit to myself that It’s ok to have to push my bike occasionally lol. 

When I was a kid, I’d be out with my papaw and if we saw someone pushing a bicycle he’d always say… “well seems like that dumb sumbitch would ride that bicycle” and that’s always been in my head, hell I’ve thought it before myself:… all the way up the point where I bought a bicycle and took off up the road. Now I get it and owe several ppl apologies lol. 


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Is your new bike set up tubeless? Walking because of a flat stinks a little bit more than other types of walking.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> Is your new bike set up tubeless? Walking because of a flat stinks a little bit more than other types of walking.


Yessir, it is tubeless. 


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## Nocturnalnature71 (May 29, 2021)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Yessir, it is tubeless.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And you got your tubeless plug kit, pump or Co2 inflator and know how to use them, correct 😉?


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Nocturnalnature71 said:


> And you got your tubeless plug kit, pump or Co2 inflator and know how to use them, correct ?


Hahahahaha. Of course I do…. Not have those things. I do have a pump but it’s too big to carry on the bike, I’ll grab a kit this week from the cycle store and watch some videos on how to use it. I gotta get off-road soon before I do something crazy like put road tires on my mountain bike 


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Hahahahaha. Of course I do…. Not have those things. I do have a pump but it’s too big to carry on the bike, I’ll grab a kit this week from the cycle store and watch some videos on how to use it. I gotta get off-road soon before I do something crazy like put road tires on my mountain bike
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You'll probably be ok without plugs and stuff. A pump or inflator is a good idea. If you stay on greens and stay out of the weeds, you're probably not going to get a puncture that the sealant can't handle. Depends on what kind of thorns and burrs you have in your part of the world.

Since I have gone tubeless, I have only lost air once, when a tire "burped" because I was running too low a pressure. The pressures you are running sound like you'll probably avoid that. But if you feel the tire squirming in turns, that's a sure sign that pressure is too low, and, as a heavier guy, probably need to keep an eye out for that.


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## joe2022 (8 mo ago)

I like the new bike.

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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

joe2022 said:


> I like the new bike.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


Thanks joe. I really like it too. 


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

TwiceHorn said:


> You'll probably be ok without plugs and stuff. A pump or inflator is a good idea. If you stay on greens and stay out of the weeds, you're probably not going to get a puncture that the sealant can't handle. Depends on what kind of thorns and burrs you have in your part of the world.
> 
> Since I have gone tubeless, I have only lost air once, when a tire "burped" because I was running too low a pressure. The pressures you are running sound like you'll probably avoid that. But if you feel the tire squirming in turns, that's a sure sign that pressure is too low, and, as a heavier guy, probably need to keep an eye out for that.


I'd suggest a spare tube and a pump as a starter flat repair kit.

if you are tubeless and your tubeless setup is doing its job, it'll pick up little poky stuff that'd otherwise puncture and cause you a flat. Try to put a tube in that in the event of a rare bigger problem, and that tube won't last very long before all that junk embedded in your tire punctures it. you'll have to do something about those things if you're going to put a tube in there as an emergency fix.

Plugs are a good start to a repair kit that'll let you stay tubeless. Using plugs is faster than installing a tube, especially if you've gotta dig out spines, thorns, glass, etc. I still have my spare tube because there are still going to be situations where plugs won't work. 

You can go farther off the deep end with a needle and thread and patch/seal materials for holes that plugs won't address, but those should be quite rare. They'll take long enough to use that you'd probably need to be riding somewhere far from the trailhead. Because otherwise, it's more economical to just walk out. Encountered a guy like that not too long ago. Pinch flatted his tire in a gnarly section of trail, and the hole was right by the bead of the tire. Plugs won't touch that, really. But he was less than a mile from the trailhead so it took him less time to walk out than it would have to even install a tube. He didn't need to waste repair supplies on a tire that he'd need to replace, anyway.

I don't like CO2 for regular mtb use. For one, it has a tendency to cause some sealants to solidify (not sure if all the sealant brands have addressed this or not, but at least some have). The bigger issue with it is that you only have as many shots to inflate your tire as you carry spare cylinders (and there's a decent chance that filling a mtb tire will take multiple cylinders, anyway). For racing, that's fine. But for regular riding, it's not enough. A pump gives you the ability to repair multiple flats. A pump gives you better control of your pressure in case you need to adjust on a ride. A pump lets you top up on a slow leak (say, your valve core is damaged and you don't have a spare valve core in your kit - I've had that exact thing happen to me).


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Harold said:


> I'd suggest a spare tube and a pump as a starter flat repair kit.
> 
> if you are tubeless and your tubeless setup is doing its job, it'll pick up little poky stuff that'd otherwise puncture and cause you a flat. Try to put a tube in that in the event of a rare bigger problem, and that tube won't last very long before all that junk embedded in your tire punctures it. you'll have to do something about those things if you're going to put a tube in there as an emergency fix.
> 
> ...


Do you have specific items that you recommend? I’m gonna start gathering some of this stuff this week. I’m also planning to hit some green trails this week. Should be a fun week 


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Do you have specific items that you recommend? I’m gonna start gathering some of this stuff this week. I’m also planning to hit some green trails this week. Should be a fun week
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What sorts of items? Tubes are tubes. Nothing fancy there. For a pump, use what you like. I have a Blackburn pump that's over 20yrs old and still kicking, but it's kinda big. I have a little OneUp pump attached to the bike right now. It works, but I'm not especially wedded to it.

The plugs I carry are the Dynaplug Racer. Lots more expensive than a more basic plug kit that uses plain "tire bacon" but installing a plug from it is FAST.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Harold raises valid points, as usual.

One caveat, though. Putting a tube in a tubeless tire with sealant can be kind of a mess, trailside.
This is especially true if you haven't been diligent in refreshing your sealant or for some other reason your tire is full of partially dried sealant ("sealant boogers").

The point of this post being that you need to add a couple of ounces of sealant to your tires about every 90-120 days or so, especially if it's hot, or you have had any significant leakage. The easiest way to do this is to air down your tires, carefully so the bead doesn't unseat, and remove the valve cores and squirt the sealant in with a syringe or a 2-3 oz bottle with a tapered tip.

Harold is right that CO2 can be fiddly, and may not completely fill your tire. However, I had to resort to it to seat a tire/rim combination and used a "nozzle" that would take 12g carts, in addition to 16 or 20. I used the 12g because I had some lying around and they're cheaper. By getting that "practice" using the CO2, I could fill a 2.4" 29er tire to about 30-40 psi pretty easily, but there was a bit of a learning curve about seating the tool on the valve stem, and hitting and holding the trigger so it all went into the tire. So, I feel fairly confident about the use of CO2, with a 16g cart, on the trail, but I have fiddled with it some. YMMV there.

And yes, after I seated a bead using the CO2, and maybe let the tire sit a while to complete the seal, I "drained" the CO2 and pumped up again using air, because of adverse reactions between CO2 and sealant? rim materials.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Harold said:


> What sorts of items? Tubes are tubes. Nothing fancy there. For a pump, use what you like. I have a Blackburn pump that's over 20yrs old and still kicking, but it's kinda big. I have a little OneUp pump attached to the bike right now. It works, but I'm not especially wedded to it.
> 
> The plugs I carry are the Dynaplug Racer. Lots more expensive than a more basic plug kit that uses plain "tire bacon" but installing a plug from it is FAST.


I’m confident I can plug a tire, assuming it’s like plugging a truck tire, then I have had lots of practice. I’ve seen the mini pumps, but I figure some brands are better than others. When I bought the bike they told I’d need to come back every 4 months to change the tire sealant, which is probably something I’m gonna learn to do on my own. 

But he said the first “tune up” is free so I’ll take advantage of that one when the time comes. 


Do y’all carry this stuff in a pouch on the bike or on your body?


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Did the shop specifically change the bike to tubeless?

The tires and wheels are tubeless "ready", but usually on the shop floor they have a tube inside and not sealant, and its on you/the mechanic to change to sealant later. This is because sealant only last a short time (6 months, a year), and the bike could sit on the shop floor for much longer than that.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

smashysmashy said:


> Did the shop specifically change the bike to tubeless?
> 
> The tires and wheels are tubeless "ready", but usually on the shop floor they have a tube inside and not sealant, and its on you/the mechanic to change to sealant later. This is because sealant only last a short time (6 months, a year), and the bike could sit on the shop floor for much longer than that.


Good question. He told me they were tubeless, and explained the maintenance schedule, and the giant website says the fathom 29 comes “tubeless prepared” which could mean tubeless ready or it’s already been done. Hell man, I’m Honestly not sure lol. How can I check?


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Rims says tubeless ready, extras says tubeless prepared so I’m not exactly sure what I have lol. 


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh, interesting. Easiest way from the outside is to look at the valve - they look a little different than regular tube valves usually (not always). But that spec does seem to imply they are already set up.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Since your first mountain bike ride on a trail is only a 1 mile loop you don't have to overcomplicate things by getting tubes, plugs, etc. if you don't have them already. It'll only be a short walk back to the car is something goes wrong (you'll need that stuff for longer excursions though). Just have fun.

BTW, did you at some point ask for weight loss advice or did everyone just start giving it out unsolicted? LOL


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Nat said:


> Since your first mountain bike ride on a trail is only a 1 mile loop you don't have to overcomplicate things by getting tubes, plugs, etc. if you don't have them already. It'll only be a short walk back to the car is something goes wrong (you'll need that stuff for longer excursions though). Just have fun.
> 
> BTW, did you at some point ask for weight loss advice or did everyone just start giving it out unsolicted? LOL


I think I brought up losing weight and everyone chimed in with their experience. It’s cool tho, I welcome any help I can get lol. I’m pretty good at losing a bunch of weight quickly, but I’m bad at maintaining the weight loss, I’m losing weight at a much slower pace this go round as well as practicing portion control on a more real world diet instead of eating prepped meals 6 times a day. The bike helps in more way than one tho, because when I’m eating lunch I always think to myself, if I’m gonna wanna ride my bicycle with a heavy stomach lol. 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

smashysmashy said:


> Oh, interesting. Easiest way from the outside is to look at the valve - they look a little different than regular tube valves usually (not always). But that spec does seem to imply they are already set up.


They’re Schroeder valves I think. Definitely not regular valve stems. 


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Schraeder valves are what cars have. most bikes above a few hundred bucks have presta.

But what i mean, is tubeless ones usually look different still. different threaded area, made of aluminium, etc.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Schrader valve stem is the 'regular' you have on car tires. Presta has the lock-down.
Topeak has a line of mini pumps to look at.
Pick a Presta tube to go with a Presta pump.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

smashysmashy said:


> Schraeder valves are what cars have. most bikes above a few hundred bucks have presta.
> 
> But what i mean, is tubeless ones usually look different still. different threaded area, made of aluminium, etc.











This is what I have on the fathom 


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

that's a presta valve. looks like a tubeless valve, too. it's RARE (as in, I've never seen one) for the valve stem on a tube to be anything but silver. tubeless valves often are black or even some other color.

new to me that giant is shipping bikes that are already tubeless. Santa Cruz has done that for a long time, but most other manufacturers I've seen in shops might have tubeless ready everything, but they still ship with tubes because those are a little easier for a shop to deal with when the bike sits on the sales floor for awhile.

refreshing sealant is a simple process. there are several ways to do it. I use a big sealant syringe. I remove the valve core (the silver part on your valve), put the valve at the 6 o'clock position, squirt the sealant in through the syringe, put the valve core back, and reinflate.

You can pop the bead of the tire off in a little section and pour it in. You can use the little mini stans bottles (and reuse them after) and squirt through the valve core. all those methods work.

as for carrying stuff, I split my stuff up a bit. some is carried on the bike. other stuff goes in my backpack. no wrong way here, either. pick what you like. how are you carrying water when you go for a ride?


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

yup, that's a tubeless valve. sweet.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Harold said:


> that's a presta valve. looks like a tubeless valve, too. it's RARE (as in, I've never seen one) for the valve stem on a tube to be anything but silver. tubeless valves often are black or even some other color.
> 
> new to me that giant is shipping bikes that are already tubeless. Santa Cruz has done that for a long time, but most other manufacturers I've seen in shops might have tubeless ready everything, but they still ship with tubes because those are a little easier for a shop to deal with when the bike sits on the sales floor for awhile.
> 
> ...


Good ol water bottle in the cage lol. I have a camelbak that I’ll bust out of storage when I start hitting the trails tho. 


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Harold said:


> I don't like CO2 for regular mtb use.



I used to feel that way but tires are so much better now and flats are so infrequent that I now prefer to carry a c02 inflator. It's super rare for me to even use it but when I do it's quick & easy for sure. I've only used it twice in about 4 or 5 years so mostly it's just dead weight though, same as a pump and a tube 🙃


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> I used to feel that way but tires are so much better now and flats are so infrequent that I now prefer to carry a c02 inflator. It's super rare for me to even use it but when I do it's quick & easy for sure. I've only used it twice in about 4 or 5 years so mostly it's just dead weight though, same as a pump and a tube 🙃


I get a nasty twitch anytime I even think about doing that.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Harold said:


> I get a nasty twitch anytime I even think about doing that.




There may be medications available that could help alleviate that


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## Gym123 (Dec 4, 2021)

dryfirecharlie said:


> This is what I have on the fathom
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Presta.


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

TLDR-Way too small unless you intend to ride it like a BMX. Exchange the bike for a larger size and do not return to that LBS. Shame on them.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

bingemtbr said:


> TLDR-Way too small unless you intend to ride it like a BMX. Exchange the bike for a larger size and do not return to that LBS. Shame on them.


Lol. Let me catch you up 

Traded the bike in that week for a fathom 29 in medium at the same shop. Had an excellent experience with a different salesman who also happened to be the bike mechanic. The bike is set up for me and I’ve been thoroughly enjoying riding it. I was wanting to hit some trails this week by myself, but 2/3 of my kids have Covid now so it’ll be another week before I take it off road. Have a good one! 


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

Good deal!


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

bingemtbr said:


> TLDR-Way too small unless you intend to ride it like a BMX. Exchange the bike for a larger size and do not return to that LBS. Shame on them.


That's the gold example of properly executed TLDR.
You'd think 10 pages, almost 190 posts later. No one would tell him that information. Right?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Everyone likes the new guy. Is that an MTBR first?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nat said:


> Everyone likes the new guy. Is that an MTBR first?


it's not too common these days that the new guy shows up willing to listen. so, first time in a long time, at least. at least this OP didn't insist that the first helpful responder think before posting


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Harold said:


> it's not too common these days that the new guy shows up willing to listen. so, first time in a long time, at least. at least this OP didn't insist that the first helpful responder think before posting


Lol, I’ve been the new guy at way too many things to show up and be that douchey right off the rip. When I first started shooting bows, I went to a 3d tournament and promptly dry fired my bow in front of a group of guys that i had just met and they were cool enough to let me shoot with them. The bow exploded into a million pieces and everyone was speechless. Hence my username on here and basically everywhere else lol. 5 years later and two of those dudes are my two my best friends on earth. I’m old enough to know when to be humble, which for me is basically always unless we’re talking about grilling lol. Then I can talk a little smack 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Nat said:


> Everyone likes the new guy. Is that an MTBR first?


Thanks Nat! If anyone on here is in middle Tennessee I could use a riding buddy! First lunch is on me! 


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Made the whole loop this evening without walking lol, then I rode two more miles back and forth on the road because it was fun. Does this look like normal beginner pace to y’all?


















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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

It was definitely faster on the talon 2, these tires just feel huge riding the pavement lol. 


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Well done


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

I'd say that's actually pretty blazing fast for a newb on a first off-road ride. I suppose the road riding biased it a little bit.

2.5-3 mph is a typical faster walking pace, double that is slowish/meandering riding, above say 7mph on flattish stuff and you're starting to boogie. A lot depends on the trails.

On new trails, you might actually want to slow down a little bit lest you be caught by surprise by something.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> I'd say that's actually pretty blazing fast for a newb on a first off-road ride. I suppose the road riding biased it a little bit.
> 
> 2.5-3 mph is a typical faster walking pace, double that is slowish/meandering riding, above say 7mph on flattish stuff and you're starting to boogie. A lot depends on the trails.
> 
> On new trails, you might actually want to slow down a little bit lest you be caught by surprise by something.


My bad man, that was actually the blacktop around my neighborhood lol. I suspect my first trail ride will be slightly slower than a walk, I’ll probably push the bike along with my feet like the kids do on the balance bikes lol. 


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

Win win! You got a bike that fits you much better and you like, the shop got to sell you a higher end bike. Also, getting the mechanic was a win too. The better ones know whats up. Some of the best riders are terrible at working on bikes and knowing whats up with them. Your original bike was sized right, for trials riding! 
youre now getting out there and enjoying it, thats the best win! And its not really about distance but time. As your conditioning gets better youll find yourself just wanting to keep going. During the week i road ride after work, and honestly have a hard time keeping it under two hours.
As you get more into trails, or even horsing around in the driveway, wear shin guards with those pedals, trust me. Or not and the first time you “rattrap” yourself you will know. It will happen, and itll hurt. 
Give the saddle a chance, as other said, there is a certain amount of “toughening “ up. But you can also tweak adjustments that can help. You can slide the saddle forweard and back and change the tilt. But sometimes adjustments can be counter intuitive. Some people feel pressure on “taint” and tilt the nose down to alleviate that, but that often causes you to slide down the front of saddle and make the pressure worse. Make small incremental changes to see how it feels. At your current time and distance, no need to worry about your clothes and shorts, but as your time goes ip, you might want to look into cycling short liners. Form fitting padded inner liner in lew of your conventional undies. Key thing is they are synthetic for moisture wicking and form fitting with well placed flat seams to avoid chafing. The padding may or may not help. There are many athletic boxer/brief type shorts that work well too. 
Postive, friendly attitude will go far too. Theres a good chance you can meet people to ride with. Be great if you can get an existing buddy, but as you get older its sometimes harder to do. Many shops also organize group rides, but look for ones designated beginners. Higher level rides theyll hammer for hours with a few thousand feet of elevation. But riding with someone is a good idea, esp on trails. You mentioned your a hunter so youre prob good with wilderness,but when you crash and/or get a mechanical out on trail its good to have someone there. I just had a good crash yesterday and was glad i was able to get in touch with guy i was ridingwith earlier that we had just split up. He came back and gave me much appreciated assist. Ive ended up with 5 stitches in knee and will be out of commision for a couple weeks. Sucks as i was considering doing a big mtb/gravel stage race vacation in a couple months but thats a no go now. 
tge using bike for hunting is an interesting idea, tgerr are some e-bikes marked especially for that, but there can be logistical issues. If youre using regular mtb to get to area but then hike in further, what to do with bike? You can stash it, but beware. I had one of guys i know here working on trail maintenance have his bike stolen while he was working on the trail and he stashed his bike inbushes! I kinda worry about that now and on that trail network dont leave my bike too far away.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Taroroot said:


> Win win! You got a bike that fits you much better and you like, the shop got to sell you a higher end bike. Also, getting the mechanic was a win too. The better ones know whats up. Some of the best riders are terrible at working on bikes and knowing whats up with them. Your original bike was sized right, for trials riding!
> youre now getting out there and enjoying it, thats the best win! And its not really about distance but time. As your conditioning gets better youll find yourself just wanting to keep going. During the week i road ride after work, and honestly have a hard time keeping it under two hours.
> As you get more into trails, or even horsing around in the driveway, wear shin guards with those pedals, trust me. Or not and the first time you “rattrap” yourself you will know. It will happen, and itll hurt.
> Give the saddle a chance, as other said, there is a certain amount of “toughening “ up. But you can also tweak adjustments that can help. You can slide the saddle forweard and back and change the tilt. But sometimes adjustments can be counter intuitive. Some people feel pressure on “taint” and tilt the nose down to alleviate that, but that often causes you to slide down the front of saddle and make the pressure worse. Make small incremental changes to see how it feels. At your current time and distance, no need to worry about your clothes and shorts, but as your time goes ip, you might want to look into cycling short liners. Form fitting padded inner liner in lew of your conventional undies. Key thing is they are synthetic for moisture wicking and form fitting with well placed flat seams to avoid chafing. The padding may or may not help. There are many athletic boxer/brief type shorts that work well too.
> ...


Thanks man, it’s cool that y’all are stoked for me because I’m stoked lol. I wish everyone in life was like the dudes in this thread. 

It’s like I landed a new client, and every stranger I met on the way home high fives me lol. 

Anyways, yeah man the bike is sick, I absolutely love it. 

My pedaling form is junk, the heel of my shoe hits the bicycle if not paying attention to foot placement. I’m trying to work on that every day, but my feet are deformed from rheumatoid arthritis as a kid and I’m not sure there’s much I can do with them. 

Legit question, how fast are y’all going in these things? I got my talon up to 23mph and this one just over 20mph and both instances felt like 100mph. The fathom also tends to wobble a little at that speed, which I’ve read I’d common on those tires. I could go a lot faster, but the corners are tight, and I ride my breaks from basically the top of the hill back to the bottom and still manage to hit 20mph. 

My buddy dev killed a monster last year by riding his bike in. He drives a raptor and every time he’d hunt that stand, the buck would show up on the other camera. So he rode his bicycle in the last mile and parked it at the trail head (private property) and sure enough he killed Him just after daylight. I would never take the bike on a public land hunt unless I could park it so that I could see it from the stand lol. 


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thanks man, it’s cool that y’all are stoked for me because I’m stoked lol. I wish everyone in life was like the dudes in this thread.
> 
> It’s like I landed a new client, and every stranger I met on the way home high fives me lol.
> 
> ...


That's pretty speedy on this kind of bike, even on the road. 

Trails are going to slow you down a bit, because of the surface, the terrain, and most likely the trees. Even pretty flat, flowy trails can be hard to generate speed on because they tend to be twisty and involve a lot of turning that can bleed speed. And even when you have descents that get you going 20mph or better for sustained periods, that's usually counterbalanced by the climbs to get to the top.

Speed is probably not the best measuring stick for off-road riding, certainly in any absolute sense. As you develop skills and fitness, you'll probably be more interested in tackling tougher trails and taking longer rides. And, once you settle in on the local trails, you can start comparing your own times and speeds on a given trail as a "development" metric. But, you'll probably find that the things that makes you faster are not trying to "haul ass," but rather, not walking, climbing faster, carrying higher gears in the "straights," and turning well without either slamming into a tree, or going over, and without excessive braking. A lot of it comes back to slow is smooth, smooth is fast.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Kind of an interesting anecdote along those lines. I got a new bike in March because my old one was stolen. The bike is very similar in weight, geometry, and general configuration (travel, driveline quality all that) to my old bike. There is no real obvious reason I should be faster on it.

The new bike is regarded as one of the better pedaling platforms out there, but the old one was no slouch and the difference is a bit subtle at times. It also has a stiffer (bigger stanchions) fork that's tangibly smoother over chattery stuff like roots and smaller rocks. One of the more noticeable things is that the steering is more precise for my purposes in the twisties, and, I can comfortably carry more speed over non-technical chunk. Finally, the cogs on the cassette, in the mid to lower ranges (only differ by a tooth or two from the old one), really seem to fit my cadence and strength well, particularly for the longer, slow-burn climbs.

The net result is that I am, on average, about 1-1.5mph faster on the trails I ride frequently, about 10%. And now that I am settling in with the bike on my local trails, and feel a tad more in control, I can push a little harder. But for the several years of riding prior to the new bike, I was pretty unconcerned with speed, except that the more I rode and the better I got, I noticed my speeds inching upward.

Also, and this might be relevant to your situation, about a year ago, I picked up a cheap single-speed "fixie" to ride on the road when the trails are closed for rain. So that bike keeps me riding when I can't ride trails, and the singlespeed nature of it a) increased my strength some and b) made me realize how lazy I had become about coasting and dropping into an easier gear on the trails when I didn't need to. And, because it is relatively light, and has skinny, high-pressure tires, it is quite a bit more enjoyable to ride on the streets.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Legit question, how fast are y’all going in these things? I got my talon up to 23mph and this one just over 20mph and both instances felt like 100mph. The fathom also tends to wobble a little at that speed, which I’ve read I’d common on those tires. I could go a lot faster, but the corners are tight, and I ride my breaks from basically the top of the hill back to the bottom and still manage to hit 20mph.


20mph pedaling on pavement is pretty quick for a mtb. With tire drag and wind resistance, I can get up to that speed, but can't hold it for very long.

If I'm on the trail, anything that fast is done on the downhills while coasting. And I only get up to that speed if the trail is smooth and straight, which is rare. Usual descending speeds are lower. And feel faster because the trail adds to the sense of speed with turns, loose conditions, drops and jumps, etc. On steep climbs I might be going 2-3mph at times.

On a faster gravel ride on my mtb, I'll be going fairly quick, but a ride like that isn't really about getting my max speed up, but rather averaging faster so picking up my slower speeds. Fewer rest stops, riding with some effort at times I might otherwise be doing an easy cruise, that sort of thing. My max speed doesn't really change much.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I’d like to suggest that you don’t worry about average or top speed at this stage and instead focus on technique. Speed will come.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

TwiceHorn said:


> Speed is probably not the best measuring stick for off-road riding, certainly in any absolute sense. As you develop skills and fitness, you'll probably be more interested in tackling tougher trails and taking longer rides. And, once you settle in on the local trails, you can start comparing your own times and speeds on a given trail as a "development" metric. But, you'll probably find that the things that makes you faster are not trying to "haul ass," but rather, not walking, climbing faster, carrying higher gears in the "straights," and turning well without either slamming into a tree, or going over, and without excessive braking. A lot of it comes back to slow is smooth, smooth is fast.


When I have set out with the goal of riding fast (average speed, over some distance, not an outright sprint), I'm always faster when I concentrate on riding smooth instead of pedaling hard. Sure, pedaling hard will get my max speed up, but average speed is about carrying speed through corners and conserving energy for the climbs. 

If I sprint hard into a sharp turn, I will probably have to brake hard to enter the turn (and probably brake harder than is necessary) and then expend a lot of energy to accelerate out of it. Whereas if I approach the turn slower to start with, I can maintain speed through it better and I don't have to accelerate out of it. My average might be the same (or faster) on the attempt where I rode at a slower speed, and I've expended less effort to do so, which gives me more energy to drop the hammer for the next climb, making it to the top a little quicker than I would if I was a little more tired. The details all depend on the specific trail in question, but that's the general idea.

This is almost always the case for riders - your ability to pedal fast greatly exceeds your skill at cornering fast. So if you hammer on the straights leading into the turns, you're going to hit those turns with sloppy form and you're going to be much slower through them. It'll drag down your average speed for the whole run, and you'll be more tired for it. Whereas if you focus on your form in the corners and put less effort into pedaling fast in the straights, you will most likely complete that run faster overall, even though your max sprint speed might be lower.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Sorry guys, I didn’t mean to convey that I was worried about riding fast. What I meant was that 20mph seems like it’s fast as hell, and I see folks on YouTube going way faster than that all the time. 

I guess Somebody needs to do some mountain biking videos for the guys like me so we can see what it’s actually like lol. Just some chubby dad in cargo shorts walking half the hills and slow rolling the jumps lol. 


I’m very stiff in the turns, even on big wide sweeping asphalt turns. There’s no way I’d be trying to hit those dudes fast. I have been working on slow speed turns, track stands, and moving my body weight back and forth on my bike just in the yard, but the concept of standing up and leaning the bike over between my legs is just wild to me. I hope that with practice it will come with time. 


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I see folks on YouTube going way faster than that all the time.
> 
> I guess Somebody needs to do some mountain biking videos for the guys like me so we can see what it’s actually like lol. Just some chubby dad in cargo shorts walking half the hills and slow rolling the jumps lol.


I've seen a few of those on the YouTube. They often have some super-aggressive heavy metal soundtrack, LOL.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I guess Somebody needs to do some mountain biking videos for the guys like me so we can see what it’s actually like lol. Just some chubby dad in cargo shorts walking half the hills and slow rolling the jumps lol.


Everything in in mountain bike "pov" videos looks 10 times flatter and 10 times slower than it is in real life.

I recorded one of my rides once and watched it back and was like "I don't remember walking that section slowly... oh, I'm not walking, just just really suck"

haha.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Nat said:


> I've seen a few of those on the YouTube. They often have some super-aggressive heavy metal soundtrack, LOL.


Dang, I guess someone has beaten me to it. 


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nat said:


> I've seen a few of those on the YouTube. They often have some super-aggressive heavy metal soundtrack, LOL.


sounds like my first few videos....before I realized that I'm a worse video producer than I am a rider (and then my gopro ended up in a drawer).


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> Everything in in mountain bike "pov" videos looks 10 times flatter and 10 times slower than it is in real life.
> 
> I recorded one of my rides once and watched it back and was like "I don't remember walking that section slowly... oh, I'm not walking, just just really suck"
> 
> haha.


The GoPro effect is real. We've recorded some pretty sketchy sections then when we watched it later it was like, "Oh. Cute."


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

20mph is a good clip, on my road bike i can only sustain that on flats without a strong headwind. On a couple downhill sections of road i top out at right around 40 and thats kinda sketchy. On a MTB with knobby tires, its way less.
As tou get bettter and rides become epic, consider packing a cooler in car with “recovery” drink. Hi protein and carb, basically glorified chocolate milk (some people use actual chocolate milk) to down immediately post ride. It helps to buffer your hunger. I find it sates me for about an hour. If you dont and you go hit up somewhere for postride meal, theres a tendancy for super munchies and to eat everything in sight! These drink can be a couple hundred calories or more tho so your ride has to have used more than that!
Oh and replenishing sealant is super easy. I like Orange sealant that comes with the plastic hose attachment. Youll want the valve core tool to remove the valve body, if you look carefully youu see the body below the knurled knob has flats. You can unscrew (remeber to let out the air first!) that part of valve body and you're left with just a hollow tube that the sealant bottle hose goes over and you can squeeze in about a ounce.


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## Toby-BeachBiker (Jun 3, 2021)

That bike you have is a very modern geometry, rather serious hardtail. I own that exact bike! It comes with tubeless tires, a 1X12 Shimano drive-train, and a dropper...you got yourself a great bike.

Keep riding and you will be surprised how quickly you will improve. Also, it is so fun seeing progress. things you do not think you will ever be able to do today, you will be doing a month from now...welcome to an amazing and addictive sport.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Toby-BeachBiker said:


> That bike you have is a very modern geometry, rather serious hardtail. I own that exact bike! It comes with tubeless tires, a 1X12 Shimano drive-train, and a dropper...you got yourself a great bike.
> 
> Keep riding and you will be surprised how quickly you will improve. Also, it is so fun seeing progress. things you do not think you will ever be able to do today, you will be doing a month from now...welcome to an amazing and addictive sport.


Specs say deore 1x10. (still awesome of course).


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

smashysmashy said:


> Specs say deore 1x10. (still awesome of course).


It’s definitely a 1x12. I don’t know what any of that other stuff means tho lol










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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Toby-BeachBiker said:


> That bike you have is a very modern geometry, rather serious hardtail. I own that exact bike! It comes with tubeless tires, a 1X12 Shimano drive-train, and a dropper...you got yourself a great bike.
> 
> Keep riding and you will be surprised how quickly you will improve. Also, it is so fun seeing progress. things you do not think you will ever be able to do today, you will be doing a month from now...welcome to an amazing and addictive sport.


Thanks man! I love it. I changed the grip out to the race face half Nelson, but thinking of getting some of those big foam ESI grips. Then it’ll be perfect lol


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Sorry guys, I didn’t mean to convey that I was worried about riding fast. What I meant was that 20mph seems like it’s fast as hell, and I see folks on YouTube going way faster than that all the time.
> 
> I guess Somebody needs to do some mountain biking videos for the guys like me so we can see what it’s actually like lol. Just some chubby dad in cargo shorts walking half the hills and slow rolling the jumps lol.
> 
> ...


On the dropper, here's what I have found helpful. Most of most of our trails require a fair amount of pedaling, so you can get away without ever using your dropper and it tends to be not fun to have to pedal more than a few strokes with your seat dropped.

But just on anything where you can coast, some chunk, a downhill, in some turns, drop your seat post and just let the bike more or less go where it wants while staying on your line. Bikes are pretty good at staying up if they're carrying any speed, we just seem to defeat that tendency.

Anyway, that gets you used to being untethered from the bike, which is admittedly a weird feeling. And then it will feel less weird when you use it when you "need" it or when it really helps, like steep descents, or a flat turn, etc. And, I'm long legged so ymmv, but I can lean flat turns to some extent with the seat up. Then you find it getting in the way and actually want to drop it.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

dryfirecharlie said:


> It’s definitely a 1x12. I don’t know what any of that other stuff means tho lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, I thought you had the 2.

sram though not shimano (still awesome haha)


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

TwiceHorn said:


> On the dropper, here's what I have found helpful. Most of most of our trails require a fair amount of pedaling, so you can get away without ever using your dropper and it tends to be not fun to have to pedal more than a few strokes with your seat dropped.
> 
> But just on anything where you can coast, some chunk, a downhill, in some turns, drop your seat post and just let the bike more or less go where it wants while staying on your line. Bikes are pretty good at staying up if they're carrying any speed, we just seem to defeat that tendency.
> 
> Anyway, that gets you used to being untethered from the bike, which is admittedly a weird feeling. And then it will feel less weird when you use it when you "need" it or when it really helps, like steep descents, or a flat turn, etc. And, I'm long legged so ymmv, but I can lean flat turns to some extent with the seat up. Then you find it getting in the way and actually want to drop it.


Thanks bro. I’m gonna have to practice with intent on some of these skills. Right now I’m just basically riding a bike in the most rudimentary way possible, I need to basically pick a skill and workshop until it’s comfortable. 


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

dryfirecharlie said:


> Thanks man! I love it. I changed the grip out to the race face half Nelson, but thinking of getting some of those big foam ESI grips. Then it’ll be perfect lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have half nelsons. I like them cause they are nice and slim (smallish hands)


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

smashysmashy said:


> I have half nelsons. I like them cause they are nice and slim (smallish hands)


I like them a lot better with gloves, but I don’t always wanna wear gloves out when I’m just cruising the neighborhood lol. I’m hoping the esi grips will be the best of both worlds. 


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

Hexsense said:


> That's the gold example of properly executed TLDR.
> You'd think 10 pages, almost 190 posts later. No one would tell him that information. Right?


Exactly. Otherwise, this thread wouldn't be 10 pages and ~200+ posts long. 🤣 🤣


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

dryfirecharlie said:


> I like them a lot better with gloves, but I don’t always wanna wear gloves out when I’m just cruising the neighborhood lol. I’m hoping the esi grips will be the best of both worlds.


FitXC are more but last much longer for me. No gloves.
Fit XC Grips | Thick Ergonomic, Contoured Bike Grips / Cycling Grips (esigrips.com)


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

eb1888 said:


> FitXC are more but last much longer for me. No gloves.
> Fit XC Grips | Thick Ergonomic, Contoured Bike Grips / Cycling Grips (esigrips.com)


Thanks man! Gonna get me a set ordered. 


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## TOGALOCK (8 mo ago)

I’m a little late to this party, but giant definitely ships the fathom with tubeless installed. The talon is tubeless ready.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

eb1888 said:


> FitXC are more but last much longer for me. No gloves.
> Fit XC Grips | Thick Ergonomic, Contoured Bike Grips / Cycling Grips (esigrips.com)


Why do you think they last longer? Just curious.

I have a number of riding buddies that like the ESI, but they do have to replace them pretty often, and we're not big crashers due to our trails and riding styles.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I'm sure the ESI grips are comfy, but everyone I know who uses them (or similar ones) either babies their bikes to avoid tearing the grips or they replace them often. No thanks.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I don't get along well with thick, squishy grips. They make me have to squeeze harder to get good bar control, which leads to arm pump. Thin for the win.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nat said:


> I don't get along well with thick, squishy grips. They make me have to squeeze harder to get good bar control, which leads to arm pump. Thin for the win.


good point. I like a larger diameter grip because I have long fingers. too thin of a grip and my fingers wrap all the way around the grip and hit my hands, reducing my grip control. I can see how excess squish could be a problem there.

I use Ergon GA2 Fat grips, which gives me the size I want. they're a just soft enough, but not squishy, so they don't appear to contribute to arm pump.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

I have ESI grips on my fatbike for insulation, but I don’t like them much. I’ll probably replace them with some Deity grips off the shelf at the local shop.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Harold said:


> good point. I like a larger diameter grip because I have long fingers. too thin of a grip and my fingers wrap all the way around the grip and hit my hands, reducing my grip control. I can see how excess squish could be a problem there.
> 
> I use Ergon GA2 Fat grips, which gives me the size I want. they're a just soft enough, but not squishy, so they don't appear to contribute to arm pump.


The squishiness is the culprit. The bar wiggles around within the grip too easily during aggressive riding, so I have to squeeze harder.


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## dryfirecharlie (6 mo ago)

Nat said:


> The squishiness is the culprit. The bar wiggles around within the grip too easily during aggressive riding, so I have to squeeze harder.


I kind of have the opposite problem. I was born with rheumatoid arthritis and my hands don’t really work super great. So the big soft grips seem like they’d be easier to hold onto. 

The race face grips I have now are sticky with gloves on which I like, but they’re just barely bigger around than the handle bars. 

I also run senior grip plus extra grip tape on my golf clubs, or I will sling em after the ball . 


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## Hexsense (Aug 10, 2021)

Sqlab 711r is a middle ground option.
Still light:
size S weight 59g, M weight 79g and L weight 89g a pair.
Yet, it is firmer and much tougher than ESI foam.

It has its own quirk though. Being slight ergo shaped with flat spots, but also being slip on rather than lock on grip, it's not easy to align the orientation right the first time. And isn't easy to rotate it later.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Harold said:


> I'm sure the ESI grips are comfy, but everyone I know who uses them (or similar ones) either babies their bikes to avoid tearing the grips or they replace them often. No thanks.





If by often you mean every year or so then that's worth it for me, they're the comfiest grips I've tried. So far. I treat them well but definitely don't baby my bikes.


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## joe2022 (8 mo ago)

After along recovery on my ankle, I finally rode my bike yesterday. 20 miles, nothing broke. Lost all my conditioning from that long break.

Lower seat and higher handle bars has fixed the hand numbness. Felt a bit weird, like riding a beach cruiser.

My MTB has a dropper post, won't have too much issue with it since I now know how much pressure should be on my hands.

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