# Do Hollowtech II cranksets w/ integrated BBs really save weight?



## burndtjamb (Oct 14, 2004)

According to weightweenies.starbike.com, a XT M760 w/ integrated BB weighs about 865 g. If you compare this to the previous generation Hollowtech splined model w/ a comparable BB, you'd get M752 + ES71=> 625 g + 255 g = 880 g. 

15 g is a pretty pathetic weight savings if you ask me... Is my math wrong or did I not take something into account?


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Small decrease in weight, HUGE increase in stiffness. The 05 XT cranks are much stiffer, and this helps a lot with power transmission.


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## Jag (Jan 12, 2004)

*Furthermore to what Jm said....*



burndtjamb said:


> According to weightweenies.starbike.com, a XT M760 w/ integrated BB weighs about 865 g. If you compare this to the previous generation Hollowtech splined model w/ a comparable BB, you'd get M752 + ES71=> 625 g + 255 g = 880 g.
> 
> 15 g is a pretty pathetic weight savings if you ask me... Is my math wrong or did I not take something into account?


With the new intergated cranks you get away from the crappy ISIS BB with the outboard bearings.

So in summary, you get a slight weight savings, stiffer cranks and more reliable BB.


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## Ty (May 20, 2004)

Off Topic....but...


Is it just me or does anyone else think the new (ish) integrated XT design looks a lot nicer than the XTR?

The old (pre-integrated B/B) XTR looked realy neat, but now I think the XT looks better.


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## Trevor! (Dec 23, 2003)

•Ty• said:


> Off Topic....but...
> 
> Is it just me or does anyone else think the new (ish) integrated XT design looks a lot nicer than the XTR?
> 
> The old (pre-integrated B/B) XTR looked realy neat, but now I think the XT looks better.


I couldn't agree more. I would never buy the XTR over the XT merely because they both perform very well but the XT looks a good bit better.

I loved my old pre integrated BB XTR's. The were so solid, nice and stiff and the chain rings seemed to last for a good while.


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## Mr_CK (Dec 22, 2004)

*oh really???*

In the first place, I don't really understand what's with the logic about XT not being less inferior compared to XTR.

XTR'04 cranks weigh about 796g and is so stiff, I couldn't ask for more myself. As a ex-XT gruppo user, I find that the cranks do flex under my 200lbs of meat.. especially when I pedal very hard to speed up. but not with the XTR. I never did get any form of flex whatsoever.

I have since changed to full XTR after feeling how stiff hey actually were and hey, they saved alot of weight compared to XTR.

one more thing, XT stuff durable?! I hardly think so. ALL my XT chainrings and cassettes worn out after 4 months of hard riding , but with XTR.. there was not much wear even after about 8 months usage with no problems in shifting.

I'm not an extreme weight weenie... but with the XTR group... I can and would testify myself as an extremely satisfied user of these components. but not so with XT.

Cheers


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## Moo Shoo Pork (Jan 17, 2004)

*Yup, and 2005 LX too*



Jm. said:


> Small decrease in weight, HUGE increase in stiffness. The 05 XT cranks are much stiffer, and this helps a lot with power transmission.


Agree w/ Jm. I have both. I can feel the difference. XT inegrated is much stiffer. And, that is saying something because the XT M752 cranks wer pretty darn stifff. What even amazes me more is that the 05 LX cranks wieght only about 80-90 gm more than the XT,but they are stiffer than the old XT 752. We put the new LX on wife's FS and I was thoroughly impressed. IMO, if you are not a weight weenie, the LX is a great bang for the buck.


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## Mr.P (Feb 8, 2005)

•Ty• said:


> Off Topic....but...
> 
> Is it just me or does anyone else think the new (ish) integrated XT design looks a lot nicer than the XTR?
> 
> The old (pre-integrated B/B) XTR looked realy neat, but now I think the XT looks better.


I have to admit, I like the LX/Hone angular/Picasso cubist look of the arms the best. That and seen mounted to a frame they look so wide, they really say "strength".

I know its an asthetic thing, but it looks sweet, IMHO.

On another note, remember that a less stiff crank like the 03 XT's deflection will act like a spring and return most of that energy when the pressure lessens as the crank arm fights it's way back into original shape.

Before I get flamed for not following the marketing piper I should post this Keith Bontrager article about stiffness (it is google cached as they just changed websites and pulled his articles - naughty!):
http://216.239.63.104/search?q=cach...bontrager.com+bontrager+rants+stiffness&hl=en

Mr.P


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## Ty (May 20, 2004)

Mr.P said:


> I have to admit, I like the LX/Hone angular/Picasso cubist look of the arms the best.


AGREE!!!! 100%

I love the look of the *Hone* arms, why couldn't XTR or even XT look like that, I think they look fantastic!

I would have to put Hone at the top of my *Beautiful Shimano Cranks top 3™*

1. Hone
2. XT
3. XTR

It's a pity there is an inverse relationship between beauty and weight.


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## Ty (May 20, 2004)

mmmm???


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## Trevor! (Dec 23, 2003)

•Ty• said:


> mmmm???


Is that new XTR or something? I always thought the XTR had that shiny colour too it.


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## Ty (May 20, 2004)

Trevor! said:


> Is that new XTR or something? I always thought the XTR had that shiny colour too it.


Potatoshop


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

Actually, if you change the granny ring and the bolts to aluminum, there is only 25 gr of difference between the Hollowtech II LX/Hone and the XT!

-b


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*XT is way stiffer than XTR...*



Mr_CK said:


> In the first place, I don't really understand what's with the logic about XT not being less inferior compared to XTR.
> 
> XTR'04 cranks weigh about 796g and is so stiff, I couldn't ask for more myself. As a ex-XT gruppo user, I find that the cranks do flex under my 200lbs of meat.. especially when I pedal very hard to speed up. but not with the XTR. I never did get any form of flex whatsoever.
> 
> ...


even LX is stiffer...just have a look here:


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## SCRAMPY (Nov 21, 2004)

*Steifgkeit?..*



nino said:


> even LX is stiffer...just have a look here:


A translation would be nice, but a chart with some old square bb's for reference would be best.


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

nino said:


> even LX is stiffer...just have a look here:


I got a 2005 LX set last October and ridden over 2,500 km on it to this day. It works perfectly. It's not the typical WW set, but not heavier than a 1998 XT set for example. The cranks are my favourite: the aluminum axle feels stiff and I managed to save 5 mm Q-factor by modifying the interface, so now I use no spacers for 68 mm BB! I changed the chainrigs and bolts and the weight is down to 875 gr. Next, I'll sandblast it and give it a blue anodized finish to match my XTC... Of course, I recommend you to buy the XT: it's cheaper than these modifications, but it's not blue 

-b


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## Mr.P (Feb 8, 2005)

nino said:


> even LX is stiffer...just have a look here:


Great post! Thanks! I Googled a quick translation:

steifigkeit = rigidity

Mr.P


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## carlos (Jan 12, 2004)

SCRAMPY said:


> A translation would be nice, but a chart with some old square bb's for reference would be best.


nino posted this article some time ago.... here it is again.
octalink, isis and last is the square taper cranksets.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Moo Shoo Pork said:


> Agree w/ Jm. I have both. I can feel the difference. XT inegrated is much stiffer. And, that is saying something because the XT M752 cranks wer pretty darn stifff. What even amazes me more is that the 05 LX cranks wieght only about 80-90 gm more than the XT,but they are stiffer than the old XT 752. We put the new LX on wife's FS and I was thoroughly impressed. IMO, if you are not a weight weenie, the LX is a great bang for the buck.


Well, they are still a good bit of $$$ in a bike shop, expect to pay around $180 for the LX setup, around 280-300 for the XT, and at least a mont's rent for XTR 

I want to get some of those 05 LXs in our shop though...


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## 514Climber (Mar 7, 2004)

*This may sound like heresy but...*

anyone out there still using a top-end square taper (i.e. Phil Wood, Action Tec) ?

I'm going against the grain and putting the following on my new HT:

Action Tec Ti square taper
Ti bolts and washers
Race Face Next (brand new off eBay)
Sugino 42/32
Vuelta 20


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*square rules!*



514Climber said:


> anyone out there still using a top-end square taper (i.e. Phil Wood, Action Tec) ?
> 
> I'm going against the grain and putting the following on my new HT:
> 
> ...


sure - I am 
lower weight (560g for the set), lower q-factor, vaste choice, no problem.
perfect for me!


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## CactusHead (Mar 14, 2004)

*Me too! But where did you find Sugino rings??*



514Climber said:


> anyone out there still using a top-end square taper (i.e. Phil Wood, Action Tec) ?
> 
> I'm going against the grain and putting the following on my new HT:
> 
> ...


I have been looking everywhere for them. You may have bought the RF Next cranks I was eyeing on ebay. They are still out there. Any guideance you can give on locating sugino rings would be greatly appreciated.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Jm. said:


> Well, they are still a good bit of $$$ in a bike shop, expect to pay around $180 for the LX setup, around 280-300 for the XT, and at least a mont's rent for XTR
> 
> I want to get some of those 05 LXs in our shop though...


....or you could order from Germany and buy XTR for about the same price as XT in the US.

http://www.bikediscount.com/html/xtr-2003.html


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*cheaper here...*



divve said:


> ....or you could order from Germany and buy XTR for about the same price as XT in the US.
> 
> http://www.bikediscount.com/html/xtr-2003.html


not my auction:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=9201&item=7134615219&rd=1


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## 514Climber (Mar 7, 2004)

*I got the Sugino rings last year...*

from either www.waltworks.com or www.bikeman.com (I can't remember for certain which of the)

The Vuelta was off eBay.

When I got my first set of the Sugino 42/32 + Vuelta 20t combo, I knew this was going to be a sweet set! So I immediately started searching around the internet for a second set because the word (this was last year, by the way) on the street was that Sugino no longer makes those rings.

I was lucky enough to find another new Vuelta off eBay, and the Sugino's from, again, either waltworks or bikeman...I'm pretty sure they don't carry them anymore...

The Vuelta 20t, however, will be on eBay from time to time.

You may also want to try a Google search.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

*me too*



514Climber said:


> anyone out there still using a top-end square taper (i.e. Phil Wood, Action Tec) ?
> 
> I'm going against the grain and putting the following on my new HT:
> 
> ...


am still using tnt and race face titaium bb sugino 42/32 and race face lp 700, i just wish somebody built 700 square taper cranks lighter than 400 grams ...


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

divve said:


> ....or you could order from Germany and buy XTR for about the same price as XT in the US.


Or you could pay retail and help your bikeshop pay the bills and stay in business.


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## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

Great thread guys! I've been shopping around for new cranks for my 5-spot. Although I'm not the biggest Shimano fan, I have to admit that the new XT cranks are on top of my list right now.

The X-Type stuff isn't that nice - I've heard they have some problems. I think the Truvativ GXP is much better - but yet the Shimano blows it all away though...

I think the external bearing thing needs some more time. At least for everyone BUT Shimano. A good ISIS setup with Ti BB would be lighter than the external bearing setup, but the external setup is WAY stiffer IMO.

The XTR cranks are not, but not worth the extra $$ - the rings might wear a tad fast on the XT's, but they are not much better on the XTR's, and you pay A LOT MORE!!


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Acadian said:


> The XTR cranks are not, but not worth the extra $$ - the rings might wear a tad fast on the XT's, but they are not much better on the XTR's, and you pay A LOT MORE!!


The XTRs are actually a lot flexier than the XTs, as tested above. It's quite a big difference, and while I have not used the XTRs, my 05 XTs do feel significantly stiffer than the old octalink XTs I was using. So, for many people the XTs may be the better crank regardless of the price.

X-type is ok, but I don't like the setup as much as shimano. X type relies on a huge (and heavy) self-removing bolt, and presses the crank arm onto the spindle like a conventional crank. This works obviously, but if you want to completely remove your cranks (to clean them) all you have to do with the shimano is loosen two 5mm allen pinch bolts that are not torqued very much, and then the entire thing slides apart. Much easier to work with IMO. The X-type still requires the same BB cup remover tool as the shimano stuff, so it does in fact require "special tools" as well, contrary to what QBP says. The other thing is that I doubt race face will ever get the same kind of stiffness out of a similer weight crank that shimano does with their hollow (increased surface area) designs.

I haven't checked out the new FSA stuff, they seem to have offered way more cranks in the last few years than I can keep up with.


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## rattlesnakehopper (Feb 14, 2005)

*Bont Race to XT hollowtech II*

I made the jump from Bontragers Race crank and truvativ bottom bracket to the XT hollowtech II crank and BB. I saved close to a 3/4 of a pound. Not to mention the stiffness and feel are amazing.


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## carlos (Jan 12, 2004)

Jm. said:


> Or you could pay retail and help your bikeshop pay the bills and stay in business.


if i start thinking like you my lbs will pay lots of bills and stay in business for a long time but i dont think i will have the same destiny....

 

about stiffness, xtr are NOT a lot flexier than xt. remember that its pretty much easier and cheaper to make a heavier crank stiffer than a light one, xt is almost 100grams heavier, and have a very wide q-factor.

i can fell the diference between square,octalink and xtype xtr cranks pretty easy but could not feel any diference between xt/xtr xtype cranks, neither i could feel the almost 100grams that was saved with xtr, the only thing i was able to notice was how wide the xt feels.


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## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

JM. Does the BB tool come with the XT cranks or you have to buy it sparately?


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## carlos (Jan 12, 2004)

the bb tool comes only with xtr/dura ace cranksets. but you can get one pretty cheap on ebay.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Jm. said:


> Or you could pay retail and help your bikeshop pay the bills and stay in business.


I pay for products and services. Whomever delivers what I'm looking for gets my money. I feel no inclination for treating retail businesses as charities. If you are in favor of a strong and healthy economic retail climate I suggest you do the same. Also, in case you missed it, that German bike shop also has to pay their bills and employs people.


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## AZ Steelhead (Jan 12, 2004)

Jag said:


> With the new intergated cranks you get away from the crappy ISIS BB with the outboard bearings.
> 
> So in summary, you get a slight weight savings, stiffer cranks and more reliable BB.


Yea because shimano is all over Issis? WTF. Shimano bearing failures are few a far between and while were at it how about the extra $150.00 US you'll end up spending, stiffness is great but at what cost.


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## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

well i took all of JM's advice (scary) and bought an XT crankset at my LBS!


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

divve said:


> I feel no inclination for treating retail businesses as charities


How is paying retail a "charity"???


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Acadian said:


> JM. Does the BB tool come with the XT cranks or you have to buy it sparately?


the tool comes with the XTR cranks, but NOT with the XT cranks

ORDER THE PARK TOOL IF YOU GET THE XT CRANKS!

The park tool comes with both tools that you need, one is for the cups, the other is for a little plastic "cap" that preloads the bearings, sort of like a headset cap, but it takes a wierd star-shaped interface. You can use needle nose pliers (kind of) to adjust this part, but the best way to do it is to order the park tool, NOT the shimano tool(s).


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Acadian said:


> well i took all of JM's advice (scary) and bought an XT crankset at my LBS!


You'll love them.

I have to go mop up the cats and dogs that are falling outside, later!!


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## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

Jm. said:


> the tool comes with the XTR cranks, but NOT with the XT cranks
> 
> ORDER THE PARK TOOL IF YOU GET THE XT CRANKS!
> 
> The park tool comes with both tools that you need, one is for the cups, the other is for a little plastic "cap" that preloads the bearings, sort of like a headset cap, but it takes a wierd star-shaped interface. You can use needle nose pliers (kind of) to adjust this part, but the best way to do it is to order the park tool, NOT the shimano tool(s).


 you should of chime in earlier...I bought the Shimano tool when I got the cranks, but now realizaed I'm missing that little tool for the plastic cap.

but that's okay...my LBS is cool like that since I buy so much stuff there. they are going to order me that Park tool (BBT-9) and will take the Shimano one back! x2


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Acadian said:


> you should of chime in earlier...I bought the Shimano tool when I got the cranks, but now realizaed I'm missing that little tool for the plastic cap.
> 
> but that's okay...my LBS is cool like that since I buy so much stuff there. they are going to order me that Park tool (BBT-9) and will take the Shimano one back! x2


Sorry, i was fixing bikes all day.


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

*Back to the topic...*

400 gramm integrated. What do you think?

-b


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## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

ExtraLite also makes a nice crank called E-Bones W (499gr) - but so damn expensive (like $500)


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

Jm. said:


> Or you could pay retail and help your bikeshop pay the bills and stay in business.


XT hollowtech II = 120 euros at my LBS!  OK OK i got a little discount.

I can't believe how expensive those things are in the US. Not even the pitifully weak dollar can explain that. I'll check with the boys here as to the normal retail price, but I bet its a lot less than 280 bucks for a set of XTs.  Any idea why that might be, Jm, anyone? More middle men in the US?


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

Maybe because Yozo Shimano's son Yuzo Shimano works for Paul Lange and Co...

-b


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

macsi said:


> Maybe because Yozo Shimano's son Yuzo Shimano works for Paul Lange and Co...
> 
> -b


Do you really think that that affects the world pricing structure for shimano parts?


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

chuffer said:


> Do you really think that that affects the world pricing structure for shimano parts?


It was meant to be a joke 

-b


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

macsi said:


> It was meant to be a joke
> 
> -b


  this is here to make this message long enough for the automatic check on the dumb user system....


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

chuffer said:


> XT hollowtech II = 120 euros at my LBS!  OK OK i got a little discount.
> 
> I can't believe how expensive those things are in the US. Not even the pitifully weak dollar can explain that. I'll check with the boys here as to the normal retail price, but I bet its a lot less than 280 bucks for a set of XTs.  Any idea why that might be, Jm, anyone? More middle men in the US?


parts are marked up according to a schedule, for cheap wholesale items, we sometimes mark up at least 300-400% (things that only cost a couple bucks whole sale) once you get up to the real pricy stuff, the markup is still around 180% (so add 80% to the part). This is pretty standardized for all bike shops, although some that sell a LOT of volume may not adhere to it in all areas.

Since the markup on bikes is not nearly as good, the bike store tries to recoup money with the parts, although most do not sell enough just to live on parts sold.

The cost of those XT cranks according to the "normal markup" is more like $300 or a little more even.

As someone else said; only in the bike industry do people think they are getting "hosed" by paying retail.


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

Jm. said:


> parts are marked up according to a schedule, for cheap wholesale items, we sometimes mark up at least 300-400% (things that only cost a couple bucks whole sale) once you get up to the real pricy stuff, the markup is still around 180% (so add 80% to the part). This is pretty standardized for all bike shops, although some that sell a LOT of volume may not adhere to it in all areas.
> 
> Since the markup on bikes is not nearly as good, the bike store tries to recoup money with the parts, although most do not sell enough just to live on parts sold.
> 
> ...


I understand markup and price scheduling, but what I would like to know is: Why the outrageous price gap between Europe and the USA? The difference is far more than the forex difference.

As I said in my first post, I have to admit I really dont know what the average LBS retail price is for the XT crank here in Europe.

btw, Jm you used to really get on my nerves with your 'support your LBS they deserve it' rantings. Now that I have a good LBS, that has excellent prices, excellent service and competent mechanics I can see how an LBS can be better than online retailers. Unfortunately, in twenty five years of patronizing bike shops this is the first shop I have found that matches all three of the above criteria.


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

chuffer said:


> I understand markup and price scheduling, but what I would like to know is: Why the outrageous price gap between Europe and the USA? The difference is far more than the forex difference.
> As I said in my first post, I have to admit I really dont know what the average LBS retail price is for the XT crank here in Europe.


Other than the weak dollar and the Yuzo-Yozo scenario, the only other expanation could be that Paul Lange and Co. employs a smaller margin than the American distributor. Shimano might be giving Paul Lange better pricing on stategical basis: maybe they need want to match the prices dictated by Truvativ (now SRAM) and FSA on the European market. (It's cheaper than doing it world-wide...) Nevertheless, I'm in Europe, part of the EU, Paul Lange is distributing Shimano in my country, and still I'm paying as much for an XT crank as Americans... unless I order from Germany... Expain this!

-b


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Jm. said:


> How is paying retail a "charity"???


Because if I'd pay such a ridiculous price it would be emotionally driven. Shops who have to charge full retail to stay afloat are either ripping you off or working from the wrong business model. When I pay for that I'm only sustaining what shouldn't exist in the first place and will eventually fail anyway.


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## Juan Speeder (Jan 13, 2005)

divve said:


> Because if I'd pay such a ridiculous price it would be emotionally driven. Shops who have to charge full retail to stay afloat are either ripping you off or working from the wrong business model. When I pay for that I'm only sustaining what shouldn't exist in the first place and will eventually fail anyway.


Really? The most succesful locally owned chain of bike shops here in Albuquerque makes an outstanding (in the bike biz  ) 39-40% average margin, and charges full retail for everything.

Go figure


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

divve said:


> Because if I'd pay such a ridiculous price it would be emotionally driven. Shops who have to charge full retail to stay afloat are either ripping you off or working from the wrong business model. When I pay for that I'm only sustaining what shouldn't exist in the first place and will eventually fail anyway.


Why is retail ripping you off? Why is it the "wrong" business model to charge retail?

Do you go to the supermarket and demand that they only charge you half of what an item is marked at? Why not? Why is it an "outrage" to pay retail?

While a mail order shop that circumvents distributers and buys OEM lots can offer a lower price, it makes no sense to complain about paying retail at a retail outlet. What, do you expect they'll just give stuff away?


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

It's not wrong to charge retail, because I'm not forced to buy anything at that price either. Probably not a good idea however if you like to stay in business. Not many people are willing to spend $450 on cranks if they can get them for $330.

The supermarket? When was the last time you've seen anything for MSRP there? Competition and volume has driven their prices way down.

When the price is too high I don't make a big deal about it. I'll just take my money and shop elsewhere. However, I would indeed feel cheated if a certain company was actively trying to limit my choice by rigging the market.

You got the mail-order thing all wrong. Somewhere in the supply chain someone is getting greedy or just isn't playing ball in the normal fashion. Nothing wrong with that in itself. The end result will just be the death of smaller shops and perhaps some of the larger competition in the long run.

On the other hand, in Europe any decent local bike shop is able to match mail-order or get very close to them on price. They get individual goods almost as cheap as they would if they order a larger batch from a distributor.

I don't expect anything. If someone can't cut it they'll just disappear.


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

*Only?*



Jm. said:


> As someone else said; only in the bike industry do people think they are getting "hosed" by paying retail.


Only in the bike industry? How 'bout automotive, electronics, office supplies, clothing - the list goes on. If it were only in the bike industry, Ebay, outlet malls and the wholesale membership megastores would not exist...


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## EBasil (Jan 30, 2004)

Davide said:


> am still using tnt and race face titaium bb sugino 42/32 and...


I bet you'd really like another pair of 180mm TNT's wouldn't you? How about a matching, pristine World Class Ti bb to go with those TNT's?


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

dbabuser said:


> Only in the bike industry? How 'bout automotive, electronics, office supplies, clothing - the list goes on. If it were only in the bike industry, Ebay, outlet malls and the wholesale membership megastores would not exist...


So in what other industrys do you expect to pay half of retail? Which stores are able to offer these prices?


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

divve said:


> The supermarket? When was the last time you've seen anything for MSRP there? Competition and volume has driven their prices way down.


I've worked in the supermarket industry, as a beverage (beer and soda) supplier. The same logic doesn't apply because the store sets the MSRP based on the price they get the items for, it is variable due to sales and other incentives, but the store is always making money. There really isn't an "MSRP" in the supermarket industry, it just doesn't work that way and it is a bad comparission. In fact, the supermarket always bought products from us at a fairly fixed price, "sales" were handled by the supermarket directly communicating and doing transactions with the particular company that was having the "sale", which means that no matter what 12 packs of budweiser were going to sell for, they always bought them for the same price, and then they went ABOVE us to the manufacturer basically (we were distributing) to settle the sale prices, it was a fairly odd system, and it doesn't relate very well to this situation or many others. The fact that most supermarket products are perishable also adds complexity and different aspects as compared to something like an auto parts store...


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## tomacropod (Jul 23, 2004)

no tuning, nothing special, 780g w/rings and FSA Platinum TI BB. Stiff, available, $280 US for the cranks and rings. Very versatile, you can put a couple of dozen different spiders/chainrings on those cranks. I have three sets and love them. Chainring quality is top notch as well, low friction surface treatment makes for great wear and shifting.

edit: those horrendous chainsuck marks are from a shimano alivio crankset, many years ago. This frame has seen a lot.

- Joel


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

tomacropod said:


> no tuning, nothing special, 780g w/rings and FSA Platinum TI BB. Stiff, available, $280 US for the cranks and rings. Very versatile, you can put a couple of dozen different spiders/chainrings on those cranks. I have three sets and love them. Chainring quality is top notch as well, low friction surface treatment makes for great wear and shifting.
> 
> edit: those horrendous chainsuck marks are from a shimano alivio crankset, many years ago. This frame has seen a lot.
> 
> - Joel


$280 for a two ring setup W/O a granny gear, not really that light, in fact add a granny and steel chainring bolts like the XT has, and the weight savings are pretty small, if anything.

There's no way that those cranks are anywhere near as stiff as the XTs, the hollow crankarms have way more surface area than an other design could hope to have, and add to that the huge axle that it rotates on these days.

Not sure I see the point of the middleburns when you can get something at the same weight that is WAY stiffer with the XTs...


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

*where do you buy Middleburn stuff in the US?*



tomacropod said:


> no tuning, nothing special, 780g w/rings and FSA Platinum TI BB. Stiff, available, $280 US for the cranks and rings. Very versatile, you can put a couple of dozen different spiders/chainrings on those cranks. I have three sets and love them. Chainring quality is top notch as well, low friction surface treatment makes for great wear and shifting.
> 
> edit: those horrendous chainsuck marks are from a shimano alivio crankset, many years ago. This frame has seen a lot.
> 
> - Joel


I'd like to get some of their rings.


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## barrows (Jul 6, 2004)

*Methodology?*



nino said:


> even LX is stiffer...just have a look here:


Hey Nino, maybe I missed it, but could you explain the methodolgy used to test crank stiffness in these tests? For instance, was a chain put on the chainrings and then bolted to an imoveable object and then the arms deflection measured for a given force? If not, the test would not seem all that viable. The cranks ability to deliver force to the chain is what matters. I ask because I can see that XT cranks have very high stiffness numbers, but I look at how the rings attatch to an XTR spider, and it looks like at least the rings on XTR (middle and outer) would likely end up being very stiff. Of course this is just an observation, that is why I am interested in knowing if the testing methodology included the chainrings, or if they just tested stiffness of the arms and BB spindle alone.


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## tomacropod (Jul 23, 2004)

well http://www.ibexsports.com/ is the distributor, they have four stockists listed on their site. It's probably quicker to get their stuff from www.chainreactioncycles.com (UK) though.

JM, I don't want steel chainring bolts or a granny ring. I wouldn't have bought the duo crankset if I wanted a granny ring. I've never tested the XT w/ outboard bearings but these cranks feel much snappier than shimano square/octalink or FSA/Truvativ ISIS cranks I've tried/used. I was really just adding another option to the pot. I have nothing in particular against shimano's new cranksets.

anyway, simplicity and versatility are worth a lot to me, and I get that with my 'burns.

- Joel


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*I used to work in a pro audio shop...*



dbabuser said:


> Only in the bike industry? How 'bout automotive, electronics, office supplies, clothing - the list goes on. If it were only in the bike industry, Ebay, outlet malls and the wholesale membership megastores would not exist...


 ... and most of that gear was sold at a 20 point markup... some as low as 10 points for stuff like Mackie mixing consoles, the bigger ones.

Guitars and amps were typically sold at 30-50 points markup. Most stuff MSRPs at 30-50 points markup.

If I asked for full MSRP, the client would have laughed at me.


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## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

tomacropod said:


> no tuning, nothing special, 780g w/rings and FSA Platinum TI BB. Stiff, available, $280 US for the cranks and rings. Very versatile, you can put a couple of dozen different spiders/chainrings on those cranks. I have three sets and love them. Chainring quality is top notch as well, low friction surface treatment makes for great wear and shifting.
> 
> edit: those horrendous chainsuck marks are from a shimano alivio crankset, many years ago. This frame has seen a lot.
> 
> - Joel


 I've got some middleburns on my DH bike and love them - but compared to other offerings out there they are pretty darn expensive. They work well for my DH application, but on my trail bike i wanted something stiff, and like JM said, the outboard bearing setup takes the cake. By no means am I saying that the Middleburn cranks are flexy, but the setup as a whole isn'tt as stiff.

just my $0.02 worth.


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## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Mr. Scary said:


> Or the bike shops could realize that people seeking XTR ae not paying retail on Ebay. I don't mind paying a little extra at the shop, but market economics drives product costing. Why pay more for the same product? Life isn't fair JM but business is business...


99% of the time, someone who buys a crankset off of ebay is not the kind of person that is going to spend any money in a shop anyways. They are going to do the work themselves, they are going to order whatever they need, and they are the last person that we'll see or get any business from anyway. The best shops are the ones that know they can NOT compete with online prices, to put it simply many online prices are as much or very nearly as much as they pay wholesale. It's impossible to compete and the shops that know and acknowledge this are the ones that get on my "good side". They aren't trying to BS me, aren't trying to perpetuate a failing business model by cutting prices and hoping that they'll sell more, when people are still going to go for whichever one is $1 cheaper.

What does MSRP exist for then?, since you have deemed it to be completely useless.

Like you said, business is business, so stop whining about MSRP and getting "raped" by the bike shop, they are not raping you, they are not wiping their a$$ with $20 bills in the back of the shop, they are just trying to survive, and if you feel that is "raping you", then you should take your money elswhere, but don't whine about it and then try to claim that "business is business". It works two ways you know.


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## AK Chris (Dec 30, 2003)

*agreed*



pimpbot said:


> If I asked for full MSRP, the client would have laughed at me.


EXACTLY! And I have to disagree with JM too, there's a hell of a lot more than biking where nobody pays full retail.

Musicians Friend, everything music and audio, thousands of items are all sold below MSRP, the local dealer has no choice but to match their prices or they will go the way of the do-do bird. They're cool about it too, MF's price plus shipping. And they don't have any attitude, its just how business is done these days.

Places like Wal-Mart and Best Buy have completely put the squeeze on local electronics dealers and most local CD dealers. Does anyone pay full retail for a CD nowadays? Only if you're a fool or don't live near a Mart or Best Buy. Let's see I can pay $17 or $10, hmmm...

Ever seen what a small hardware store asks for something compared to Home Depot or Lowe's? It obscene.

Only in the biking business do people seem to be offended when you go bargain hunting at on-line dealers. And I don't feel for any LBS or any other local business that feels we should pay whatever they're charging simply because you should spport the local/little guys. Before the net, in Alaska, we all got reamed price-wise because, "its so much more expensive to ship stuff here." Whatever.

It was because it was a lot harder to get small shop, high end merchandise. In the last few years there has been a noticable drop in local prices, competition -- from where ever -- is a beautiful thing. Some places have gone under too, mostly because they still tried to get away with MSRP type pricing when you knew it was a total ripoff.

My LBS owner gave me an attitude when I was looking for parts for my Turner frame. I saved hundreds buying on-line. I told him the difference in price was the difference between me getting the Turner or something really I didn't want like the Saber So instead of settling I bought the frame I really wanted. That was the last time I went shopping for anything more than tubes locally.

Only in the biking industry would anyone give you grief about buying something else when you're willing to spend money in their shop. If I went to the Jeep dealer to get my rig serviced and the manager gave me grief about buying my tires at Costco I'd tell him to take a flying leap.

The climate is changing, Just like small businesses that had to adapt to the Marts and Home Depot's of the world, so will the LBS. If not they will go under. Its just a fact of life and part of doing business. There are plenty of successful shops, the ones that complain likely aren't run by very good business people, otherwise they would have seen this coming and adapted. There's always room to fill the voids the big guys and shops thousands of miles away don't. Survival off the fittest, its darwinism at its best.

Edit: I forgot I am gonna buy a Surly 1x1 frameset from another LBS on Monday, but its only $26 more than I can get it online.


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## Eltbee (Jan 15, 2004)

Jm. said:


> 99% of the time, someone who buys a crankset off of ebay is not the kind of person that is going to spend any money in a shop anyways. They are going to do the work themselves, they are going to order whatever they need, and they are the last person that we'll see or get any business from anyway. The best shops are the ones that know they can NOT compete with online prices, to put it simply many online prices are as much or very nearly as much as they pay wholesale. It's impossible to compete and the shops that know and acknowledge this are the ones that get on my "good side". They aren't trying to BS me, aren't trying to perpetuate a failing business model by cutting prices and hoping that they'll sell more, when people are still going to go for whichever one is $1 cheaper.
> 
> What does MSRP exist for then?, since you have deemed it to be completely useless.
> 
> Like you said, business is business, so stop whining about MSRP and getting "raped" by the bike shop, they are not raping you, they are not wiping their a$$ with $20 bills in the back of the shop, they are just trying to survive, and if you feel that is "raping you", then you should take your money elswhere, but don't whine about it and then try to claim that "business is business". It works two ways you know.


The failing business model is the shop that ignores the market driven nature of commerce. You said they are "just trying to survive". But that's the problem. They should be trying to make some money (it's a business) and, therefore, bending to market forces.

Shops seem to either try to match an online retailer price structure or they charge full MSRP across the board. Clealy you can't do either one. So it's somewhere in the middle. I would pay a bit more to have it now. I would pay a bit more if the shop put it on. I would pay a bit more if there was a frequent buyer club. I would pay a bit more if the wrenches are consistent. Etc. It's somewhere in between etailer price and MSRP. Find the sweet spot of added value. I can't imagine this is anything other than standard free-market stuff. But if you are a shop, don't be saying "Well, I (owner) can't beat online prices so (throwing hands in the air) I'm gonna charge MSRP!". If you think that's not BS then you've been BSd. 

BTW, I'm not a wrench or shop owner or even a business person so take it with a grain of salt. And don't take it personally because Jm. is my favorite mtbr poster.


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## Graitteneag (Oct 17, 2012)

*boutique burberryme sister experience neighbor decide tell block crease*

You can locate cheap special discounts all around the huge World Broad Web solde burberry Ring making resources: Ring mandrel, a slightly tapered spindle utilized in forming rings burberrysoldesfrance monwebeden fr/]burberry solde The youngsters are usually are inclined to be too naughty and operate hither and thither the day lengthy, which helps make the ft swell above the course of the day


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Graitteneag said:


> You can locate cheap special discounts all around the huge World Broad Web solde burberry Ring making resources: Ring mandrel, a slightly tapered spindle utilized in forming rings burberrysoldesfrance monwebeden fr/]burberry solde The youngsters are usually are inclined to be too naughty and operate hither and thither the day lengthy, which helps make the ft swell above the course of the day


Gotta love spammers that dredge up 7.5 year old threads just to spam their junk.


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