# Broken Terry Saddle/Warranty Issues



## jen0910 (Mar 25, 2009)

So, I was all ready to go for a ride the other day, I rode a few miles on the road to the trailhead and was just starting on the trail (which was essentially a fire road at that point) when all of the sudden I felt crooked. I stopped, looked at my saddle and couldn't figure out what was going on...until I looked under the saddle and saw that I was missing part of the rail.

The saddle was a '09 Terry Falcon X that I bought new in April '10 and has been on my bike for about 700 miles. I weigh 125lbs and do light trail riding, no landing drops on the saddle or anything like that so I was pretty confused when I saw that the rail had snapped. The saddle was white so I was pretty meticulous about taking care of it and it didn't have a scratch on it. The only blemishes on it were the paint chipping off of the rails (not from impact). 

I called Terry and spoke to someone from their Returns and Warranties Dept. and the conversation lasted about a minute, I was told that it sounded like a warranty issue and that I should send it to them. With the conversation being so short I thought that I wouldn't have any problems so I sent them the saddle the next day. I am now kicking myself for not taking pictures of the saddle before I sent it.

A few days later I got 4 e-mails from them saying that they had accepted the return and I was being given a gift card for $66.50 that was only good for their website (I didn't buy the saddle from their website). Well, that would have been fine if that's what the saddle had cost but I paid $76.99+shipping for the saddle and a new one their website is $95. I was upset that the saddle was clearly (to me) broken because of a defect and they weren't even going to give me a replacement. I called them to see if I could just get a replacement saddle and they said that I would have to pay the difference to get a new one since they didn't have any new '09s left. I told the woman that I didn't want to have to pay for a new saddle since mine shouldn't have broken. In the end she found a demo '09 saddle for me that she offered as an even exchange. I was pretty annoyed that I had to go through all of that for a warranty issue but at least the woman that I talked to on the phone worked with me and found the demo saddle as a solution. I got the saddle in the mail today and it looked basically new, I just hope the rails on this one last longer. 

I just thought I would share my experience with my Terry saddle and their warranty. Has anyone else had any issues like this, either with their saddle failing or warranty problems?

The picture is from a few months ago.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

caveat: I repair outdoors clothing and soft goods. I deal a lot with the warranty question, as in, "is it a warranty issue" or not. I don't have any thing personal invested it in, most of the time it's just evaluating a issue and then suggesting whether a person should contact a manufacturer on a specific issue or not. I do warranty repairs for several manufacturers under contract. 

It sounds to me like you got treated OK in the long run. It seems perfectly reasonable to exchange an item for a similar one, and after all they did find one out for you.
As for offering $66.50 over $76.99 - seriously, you are going to complain about that? They don't know who you bought it from or how much you paid. Steep and Cheap? Performance on sale? Craig's list? Full retail? They don't know. Also, you got 700 good miles out of it, that should count for ten bucks worth. It's common practice with returns to give credit for a sale price amount, not full retail, if you don't have a receipt to show what you paid. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that if they are going to issue a gift card, that it would be for use with them. I'm not sure what you were expecting, but it sounds like you were treated fairly.
f.


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## cchase86 (Mar 7, 2006)

formica - seems to me a warranty issue dealing with a manufacturer defect should allow the item to be replaced; that's what a warranty is for, isn't it? Yet offering less than what was paid (independent of what MSRP is) does not allow one to replace the defective unit without shelling out more cash - for something that shouldn't have broken in the first place, from the sounds of it.

Just my interpretation.


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## jen0910 (Mar 25, 2009)

formica said:


> It sounds to me like you got treated OK in the long run. It seems perfectly reasonable to exchange an item for a similar one, and after all they did find one out for you.
> As for offering $66.50 over $76.99 - seriously, you are going to complain about that? They don't know who you bought it from or how much you paid. Steep and Cheap? Performance on sale? Craig's list? Full retail? They don't know.


I agree that in the end I was treated OK getting a demo replacement saddle, I was very happy that they were able to offer that to me as a solution. I just feel like the saddle should not have broken and I should have been offered a replacement instead of a gift certificate. It's not like I had trashed my saddle and was looking for a handout, I would have been happy if they had offered to replace the rail and return my saddle.

Also, I sent my invoice for the original saddle purchase, so they did know what I paid for it.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

again, I work in _soft good_s I regularly advise people as to whether *I* think something should be considered for warranty submission but I am essentially a third party, outside of the company environment that makes final decisions on how a situation will be handled for repair/replace. That doesn't make me an expert, but I can advise, based on my experience, as to whether IMO something is a warranty issue like a manufacturing issue or bad materials, over self inflicted abuse or wear, in soft goods only. My comments are based solely on what I see customers go through in dealing with warranty departments, or based on how the warranty departments I contract with handle warranty issues. So basically, this is all my _observation and opinion_. I'm sure someone that is employed IN a warranty department might have different comments.



> I agree that in the end I was treated OK getting a demo replacement saddle, I was very happy that they were able to offer that to me as a solution. I just feel like the saddle should not have broken and I should have been offered a replacement instead of a gift certificate. It's not like I had trashed my saddle and was looking for a handout, I would have been happy if they had offered to replace the rail and return my saddle.
> 
> Also, I sent my invoice for the original saddle purchase, so they did know what I paid for it


Well, stuff DOES break sometimes. That is just a fact no matter what kind of product we are talking about (clothing, cars, electronics, bikes etc.) Some manufacturers have really good quality control, inspection and manufacturing, some don't. In ANY given group of products, a certain percentage is going to fail, period. It appears to me they stood by their product.

Maybe they can't replace the rail. I don't know how a saddle is built, do you? Maybe it costs more for them to replace the rail than it does to replace the saddle.

As for cost calculation, I don't know the formulas. Some items get prorated for how much use you've gotten out of it before it failed. I know of no manufacturer that gives money back - usually it's a replacement, or a credit to be used with them.



> formica - seems to me a warranty issue dealing with a manufacturer defect should allow the item to be replaced; that's what a warranty is for, isn't it? Yet offering less than what was paid (independent of what MSRP is) does not allow one to replace the defective unit without shelling out more cash - for something that shouldn't have broken in the first place, from the sounds of it.


Again, I don't know the formulas on how these things are calculated. Maybe someone else does.The only thing I do know is that, at least in my field, soft goods, companies will try and do a repair over a replacement as it costs less. Some companies don't keep repair people around as part of their staff, which is where I come in. To grasp at straws, my guess would be their cost is based on current cost to them or some sort of adjusted cost factor. Did they say WHY they wouldn't cover your cost on it? The only thing I can think of is that you say you got 700 miles out of it before it broke. Maybe they prorated that you used it for two years.

More than anything, there are so few companies that will give you anything on a warranty nowadays. There are plenty out there that if you are past one year, forget it, or in some cases nothing at all. Plenty of my direct business comes from, "I called them and they won't do anything about it, can you fix it please?".

I'm of the mind that one should be grateful for them being willing to work with you and give you something back that was close to the original product. There's also the unquantifiable factor of what you get back is directly related to the level of stink you raise with customer service, lol.


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## cchase86 (Mar 7, 2006)

formica said:


> I'm of the mind that one should be grateful for them being willing to work with you and give you something back that was close to the original product. There's also the unquantifiable factor of what you get back is directly related to the level of stink you raise with customer service, lol.


I'd be of the mind that a product that has a manufacturing defect should be repaired or replaced for the consumer, not pro-rated like a 3 year old tire with a nail in it. But then again, my ideals on how a company should treat customers is clearly out of touch with reality.

I've had issues with manufacturing defects in the automotive, cycling, and photography markets and in each case, the company has been more than willing to repair or replace the defective product. In this case, with a light rider and an obviously well-cared for saddle, I would replace it without forcing the customer to "raise a stink".

As a matter of fact, Kenda recently replaced a tire on my personal bike as a consumer that was 1 year old and had a manufacturing defect that only made itself aware after about a year. I was taken care of simply and promptly with no other issues.

Disclaimer - I work in a bike shop and have exposure to what companies do to take care of customers (and not). In this case, from the sounds of it, Terry didn't do the right thing without some prodding. For a company that works in a niche market - not a good sign. Yes, they made right in the end, but they should have done it from the beginning.


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## deanna (Jan 15, 2004)

formica said:


> Maybe they can't replace the rail. I don't know how a saddle is built, do you? Maybe it costs more for them to replace the rail than it does to replace the saddle.


It may depend on the saddle. I had a wipe out that popped my Terry Fly (with the Ti rails) out of the saddle and bent a rail slightly. They had me send in the saddle + return shipping $ and replaced the rail(s). Good as new for minimal cost. However, this was several years ago -- early 2000s, so things have likely changed.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Jen0910 - 

You have 700 miles into the saddle, so you are down around 10 cents a mile. If you factor in 8% sales tax and the refund, you have spent $16.64 (2 cents per mile) to have a saddle on your bike for a year and 4 months. 

I am curious, at what point will you consider that you have gotten your money's worth? What is your acceptable dollar to mile ratio for bikes and bike parts? When is a product "used" and no longer the responsibility of the manufacturer? 

Cheers,
Chuky


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

formica said:


> There's also the unquantifiable factor of what you get back is directly related to the level of stink you raise with customer service, lol.


Or, the stink you _don't_ raise. Flies, honey, etc. In particularly tricky situations, a $5 Starbucks gift card in the box with your broken equipment works wonders. Customer service jobs turn over fast, due almost entirely to how badly the guys on the phone are treated every day.


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## jen0910 (Mar 25, 2009)

I was just trying to share my experience to let others know that Terry seems to treat warranty issues as "returns". Other companies that I have dealt with have offered repair or replacement for defects and I was surprised that Terry didn't.



chuky said:


> Or, the stink you _don't_ raise. Flies, honey, etc. In particularly tricky situations, a $5 Starbucks gift card in the box with your broken equipment works wonders. Customer service jobs turn over fast, due almost entirely to how badly the guys on the phone are treated every day.


I wasn't rude or mean to the woman that I spoke with. I simply asked her if there was any way I could get a replacement saddle instead of the gift certificate because I felt that mine should not have broken.



chuky said:


> I am curious, at what point will you consider that you have gotten your money's worth? What is your acceptable dollar to mile ratio for bikes and bike parts? When is a product "used" and no longer the responsibility of the manufacturer?


I dont think I am being unreasonable to think that a $95 saddle should last more than a year with normal use (considering I don't ride in the winter so that is probably 4 months).


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Whoa there, these are friendly questions, as a part of this discussion.

1. Didn't imply you were rude, I think that you might not have noticed that my reply was to another part of this thread, which is why I responded separately. I do have some insight into the other side of the equation, and see how the CS people (who are usually passionate mountain bikers, just like everyone else on this board) are treated every day. The upside to that sad situation is that as a customer, you can turn things to your advantage by being extra nice. This is tangental to your issue, but may be useful to someone who has a fine-line warranty issue. I always use this technique when needing help with my snow equipment, works like a charm.

2.


> I don't think I am being unreasonable to think that a $95 saddle should last more than a year with normal use


This is interesting to me, which is why I asked the original question - if it cost you $16 bucks to use a saddle for the year, and this is not acceptable, what is? Where, as a purchaser of bike parts, does your line exist? Is it an all or nothing equation?

3. The bottom line - bike parts break. How long their life cycle is, varies. As customers, we drive policy. I am curious what the women's lounge thinks.

- So, what do you all think is acceptable for warranty? A lot of people think it should be lifetime, but is that realistic? If it isn't, what is?

- Do you read warranty rules before you buy a product? What about a warranty will cause you to buy or not buy a part?

- What if lifetime warranties had more to do with legal-speak and cash reserves than they do with product quality? Would that affect your opinion?

- Are you more interested in a 1-year warranty with a no-strings/no questions asked discount/crash replacement after one year, or a very restricted lifetime warranty (ie. original owner, must have receipt, must be registered online, no visible wear and tear)

- What if you knew that extended warranties offered by large corporations were hurting the finances of small innovative companies that are champions of women's products? Are you willing to take on more risk for a product made by a company that addresses your particular needs?

- Is a pro-rated warranty unappealing? Why? If a rider gets 2 good years out of a non-repairable product and then it breaks, should they get the full value of the product back? If not, how much should they get back?

- Repair. For many products, repair or replacement with an identical item is not an option. This is due to a few things:

• Despite people saying that they want USA-made products, numbers show that the majority of buyers will choose price over origin every time. Manufacturing overseas puts the ability to repair a long way away from many companies - the cost of shipping the product back to the factory would far out weigh the cost of replacement. Some companies will maintain stock of repair parts in-country, but this really depends on the product and the company. The lower initial price of your product is directly related to your inability to repair your product.

• The consumer drive for "new" creates an artificial cycle of model years and aesthetic changes. Keeping stock around that isn't "new" can be very costly.

• In order to repair a product you have to be able to take it apart. Removable hardware is heavy - finding ways to make things out of as few parts as possible will make things lighter, but generally will also reduce repairability.

So, do you look for repairability, origin or light weight when buying a new component?​


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

chuky said:


> Or, the stink you _don't_ raise. Flies, honey, etc. In particularly tricky situations, a $5 Starbucks gift card in the box with your broken equipment works wonders. Customer service jobs turn over fast, due almost entirely to how badly the guys on the phone are treated every day.


Good point, Chuky. I was coming from the other side. What I hear occasionally from my contractors: "normally we wouldn't fix this but this person is being a pain in the butt., so would you go ahead and fix it for them..".


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

chuky said:


> <mucho snippage>- So, what do you all think is acceptable for warranty? A lot of people think it should be lifetime, but is that realistic? If it isn't, what is?


One of the things I've learned working with soft goods is the relativity of the terminology "lifetime". First of all it's not YOUR lifetime, it's estimated product lifetime. So, what is that, anyway? This is where the subjectivity comes in, and whether the company is courting the customer by going beyond what may be considered reasonable and cost effective.

Anyone remember the days when you could send a tent back that a bear had torn into, and get a replacement? For you younger folks, that was a looooong time ago. Or, take 5 year old hiking boots back to a major cooperative and get new boots, claiming "they didn't fit right"?.

I had a really interesting personal experience with this lifetime issue recently. I have a very high end shell jacket, my personal ski shell, from a top manufacturer. The waterproof zipper started to delaminate even though I have taken perfect care of it and the coat was in a like-new condition. I had my retail partner send it back for evaluation to repair/replace; I wasn't sure what they would do. They returned to me with a new zipper in it several weeks later. This coat was purchased in 2008.

Now, through my repair business, a guy brought in a set of very hard used shell and pants made by the same company. These items were the same age as mine, but they were thrashed and very worn through hard use. Seams were separating, panels of fabric were delaminating, extreme wear through abrasion and so on. The short version of this story is that even though the items were the same age as my personal ones, the company stated the items were out of the "lifetime warranty" based on the amount of heavy use that had been sustained, not the amount of time the item had been in existence, As I know through my experience with this one company, they are pretty right on about handling materials failure and defects. I did learn something new about how product lifetime is evaluated, which will help me in working with situations like this in the future.

However, it never hurts to ask, nicely as Chuky suggests. I know of a few manufacturers out there that will on occasionally still replace a 10 to 15 year old thrashed item, but I never count on it.


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## cchase86 (Mar 7, 2006)

There's a whole lot of emotion coming out in this thread from formica and chuky, and most of it seems off base. jen0910 posted a story detailing a warranty experience and both of you are turning it into something it isn't.

Personally, if I bought any component, used it normally, and had it BREAK, I would want it replaced. Don't turn this into "how much did it cost you per day and when do you get your moneys worth out of it?"

If I bought a bike frame, derailleur, shifter, pedals, wheelset, or SADDLE, rode it casually and it broke within a year, I'd want a new component. This is the RIGHT thing to do and most companies (for me, Canon, Kenda, Giant, Shimano, Mavic, Thomson have all done this without quibbling) would do it without having to ask because they stand behind the quality of their product.

formica - glad you have so many years of experience in the "soft goods" industry - it doesn't turn you into the last word for what is right and what is wrong when it comes to treating a customer correctly. You come off as very condescending and "righteous" in a situation that doesn't seem to warranty it.

Just my observations of what is going on in this thread and how it comes across to me.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I have very specifically stated that my comments and observations are from my experiences only. I have no intention of being condescending - just providing an interpretation from what I've experienced.


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## deanna (Jan 15, 2004)

chuky said:


> Or, the stink you _don't_ raise.


I can attest to this too. The o--rings on the head of my tire pump had worn out and weren't sealing as they should. Rest of the pump was A-OK. I liked the pump a lot and didn't really want to buy a new one, so I went in search of a new 'head'. I was told by various LBS's and online retailers that I could not just buy the part, I needed an entirely NEW pump.



I wrote the maker of the pump, explained that I really liked my old pump and how well it worked, asked if I could *buy* a replacement part through them directly (the pump was still being made), and how much would it cost? The rep that responded asked for my address and said they'd just send me a new part, no charge. :thumbsup:

I still have and use the pump, it's probably over 10 years old. If the replacement head wears out, I think I may actually buy a new one... but until then, I have 'old faithful' to air things up.


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## jen0910 (Mar 25, 2009)

chuky said:


> Whoa there, these are friendly questions, as a part of this discussion.
> 
> 1. Didn't imply you were rude, I think that you might not have noticed that my reply was to another part of this thread, which is why I responded separately. I do have some insight into the other side of the equation, and see how the CS people (who are usually passionate mountain bikers, just like everyone else on this board) are treated every day. The upside to that sad situation is that as a customer, you can turn things to your advantage by being extra nice. This is tangental to your issue, but may be useful to someone who has a fine-line warranty issue. I always use this technique when needing help with my snow equipment, works like a charm.


I wasn't saying that you thought I was being rude, I was actually agreeing with you. I try to deal with situations like this by being nice (though I wouldn't have thought to add a gift card ).



formica said:


> I had a really interesting personal experience with this lifetime issue recently. I have a very high end shell jacket, my personal ski shell, from a top manufacturer. The waterproof zipper started to delaminate even though I have taken perfect care of it and the coat was in a like-new condition. I had my retail partner send it back for evaluation to repair/replace; I wasn't sure what they would do. They returned to me with a new zipper in it several weeks later. This coat was purchased in 2008.


Thats how I felt about my saddle, I had taken perfect care of it and it broke. That is really the point of this whole thread. I was just trying to share my story to see if others have had similar experiences with Terry saddles. I liked my Falcon saddle but I would think twice about purchasing another one if too many other people have had them break.



deanna said:


> It may depend on the saddle. I had a wipe out that popped my Terry Fly (with the Ti rails) out of the saddle and bent a rail slightly. They had me send in the saddle + return shipping $ and replaced the rail(s). Good as new for minimal cost. However, this was several years ago -- early 2000s, so things have likely changed.


That is what I was expecting with my saddle, thanks for sharing your experience.


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## Shooter98 (Aug 26, 2011)

I think you got a pretty fair deal. I mean, you got 700 miles out of a saddle before any defects. It's not like you've only had it a week or so. As quality as something may be it will have a life expectancy. I work in the quality control business, and typically we give customers a "pro -rate" for something that's failed after such a long time like 700 miles or so but if it breaks fairly quickly then it's a no hassle replacement. Anyways, I'd say in the retail world they did you right. 

They always could have said no, lol...


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

cchase86 said:


> There's a whole lot of emotion coming out in this thread from formica and chuky


Generally speaking, not cool to come into a women's environment and start talking about people being over-emotional, it comes off as either sexist or self-hating depending upon your gender. Besides, I believe the technical term is "hysterical" and something to do with our periods and repressed sexuality - the Victorians had it all figured out, heh.

I _am_ curious how questions about people's perspective on the acceptable durability of goods can be seen as hostile in a forum format? Bottom line, I don't care about Jen's saddle, but I do find consumer ideas about the responsibilities of manufacturers to be fascinating. Growing global markets force small companies to deal with very complex issues, and in my opinion, affect the number of little companies willing to take risks on small markets (like women). Jen's saddle _could_ be a good jumping off point for a discussion, or we can give her a pat on the back and a "you are SO right", but that isn't why I use forums.

Cheers,
Chuky

C


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

cchase86 said:


> Canon, Kenda, Giant, Shimano, Mavic, Thomson have all done this without quibbling) would do it without having to ask because they stand behind the quality of their product.


Funny, I was just denied my second Canon warranty claim in a row. They have great optics, though, so I had to buy another one. In this case, I am an educated buyer and choose innovation and spectacular optics over reliability and crap jpeg compression.


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## cchase86 (Mar 7, 2006)

chuky said:


> Generally speaking, not cool to come into a women's environment and start talking about people being over-emotional, it comes off as either sexist or self-hating depending upon your gender. Besides, I believe the technical term is "hysterical" and something to do with our periods and repressed sexuality - the Victorians had it all figured out, heh.
> 
> I _am_ curious how questions about people's perspective on the acceptable durability of goods can be seen as hostile in a forum format? Bottom line, I don't care about Jen's saddle, but I do find consumer ideas about the responsibilities of manufacturers to be fascinating. Growing global markets force small companies to deal with very complex issues, and in my opinion, affect the number of little companies willing to take risks on small markets (like women). Jen's saddle _could_ be a good jumping off point for a discussion, or we can give her a pat on the back and a "you are SO right", but that isn't why I use forums.
> 
> ...


I'll try this from another tack. I only used the word "emotion" because I was trying politely to tell you and formica that you were coming off very strongly and in my mind, inappropriately to a newer member who was posting a simple experience.

Don't pull a gender card, it's a public forum and while this was posted in the "Women's Lounge" it has no gender-specific information nor have I implied anything regarding your gender. In fact, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know whether you're a female or not based simply on your avatar and user name. My response was gender-neutral.


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## cchase86 (Mar 7, 2006)

chuky said:


> Funny, I was just denied my second Canon warranty claim in a row. They have great optics, though, so I had to buy another one. In this case, I am an educated buyer and choose innovation and spectacular optics over reliability and crap jpeg compression.


Maybe you should have thrown in a gift card to Starbucks.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

cchase86 said:


> Maybe you should have thrown in a gift card to Starbucks.


Oh I did. 9 out of 10 isn't bad. 

C


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

cchase86 said:


> I'll try this from another tack. I only used the word "emotion" because I was trying politely to tell you and formica that you were coming off very strongly and in my mind, inappropriately to a newer member who was posting a simple experience.


So we are only supposed to have interesting discussions with older members? or are we only allowed to discuss the OP?



cchase86 said:


> Don't pull a gender card, it's a public forum and while this was posted in the "Women's Lounge" it has no gender-specific information nor have I implied anything regarding your gender. In fact, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know whether you're a female or not based simply on your avatar and user name. My response was gender-neutral.


By posting in the Women's Lounge, you are no longer in a gender neutral environment. It is implicit. Women wishing for a gender neutral experience post elsewhere on MTBr. Using terms like _emotion_ when there were actually no emotional words used can have different implications in this forum as opposed to others.

As for harsh - man, if this is harsh to you, don't ever post in the DH forum.


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## cchase86 (Mar 7, 2006)

chuky said:


> So we are only supposed to have interesting discussions with older members? or are we only allowed to discuss the OP?
> 
> By posting in the Women's Lounge, you are no longer in a gender neutral environment. It is implicit. Women wishing for a gender neutral experience post elsewhere on MTBr. Using terms like _emotion_ when there were actually no emotional words used can have different implications in this forum as opposed to others.
> 
> As for harsh - man, if this is harsh to you, don't ever post in the DH forum.


It stopped being an "interesting discussion" when the topic of conversation went from the OP's to something you and formica created from nothing.

As I have mentioned multiple times already (and jen0910 has) the original post had nothing to do with what should have happened and whether she got screwed over or what they did was right, it was about her saddle breaking, how Terry handled it, and if my assumption is correct, a discussion about whether other people had saddles break at the rails or whether this is an isolated incident (although certainly if it was an isolated incident all the more reason Terry should have immediately offered to replace it).

As far as the multiple comments in this thread about "getting your moneys worth", if a saddle is only expected to last a year or 700 miles, there would be thousands of riders replacing saddles multiple times per year and it simply isn't happening. The saddles on my bikes are all 5 years old or older - even on my DH bike. I don't expect a saddle to EVER break at the rails barring a crash, and nor should anyone else. It's as simple as that.

And you need to stop beating a dead horse when it comes to gender. I made no gender-specific comments, you created them all and now continue on that track when there's no reason to.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

cchase86 said:


> There's a whole lot of emotion coming out in this thread from formica and chuky, and most of it seems off base. jen0910 posted a story detailing a warranty experience and both of you are turning it into something it isn't.
> 
> Personally, if I bought any component, used it normally, and had it BREAK, I would want it replaced. Don't turn this into "how much did it cost you per day and when do you get your moneys worth out of it?"
> 
> ...


I'm not seeing that here. They presented rational arguments and personal experiences and you labeled them as "emotional". It sounds like you're the one who can't deal with people not agreeing with your opinion. Chuky even went so far as to ask for more opinions on whether or not pro-rated warranties are satisfactory to people.

In my opinion, you want something pretty unreasonable - products that never break (which is thoroughly impossible, especially considering we usually also want those same products to weigh less and less) and companies that can give you a full warranty on anything. I mean, that would be nice as a customer, but it doesn't sound rational to me. Personally, I think Terry handled this situation just fine. And I think if you got 700 miles out of a saddle and then got a gift certificate for most of the value of a new product, that sounds like a deal to me. I'd be happy with that.

I do think there are companies out there who go above and beyond with warranties, which is great when you get that positive experience, and works for them if it makes you a loyal customer. That's nice when it happens, but my personal opinion is that particularly when smaller companies can only give you what amounts to a fair deal rather than a total hookup, I don't think that should reflect badly.


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## cchase86 (Mar 7, 2006)

connie said:


> I'm not seeing that here. They presented rational arguments and personal experiences and you labeled them as "emotional". It sounds like you're the one who can't deal with people not agreeing with your opinion. Chuky even went so far as to ask for more opinions on whether or not pro-rated warranties are satisfactory to people.
> 
> In my opinion, you want something pretty unreasonable - products that never break (which is thoroughly impossible, especially considering we usually also want those same products to weigh less and less) and companies that can give you a full warranty on anything. I mean, that would be nice as a customer, but it doesn't sound rational to me. Personally, I think Terry handled this situation just fine. And I think if you got 700 miles out of a saddle and then got a gift certificate for most of the value of a new product, that sounds like a deal to me. I'd be happy with that.
> 
> I do think there are companies out there who go above and beyond with warranties, which is great when you get that positive experience, and works for them if it makes you a loyal customer. That's nice when it happens, but my personal opinion is that particularly when smaller companies can only give you what amounts to a fair deal rather than a total hookup, I don't think that should reflect badly.


Thanks for responding Connie. I agree with everything you have said. I felt it necessary to defend jen0910 because she seemed to be okay with how it turned out, but it seemed to me that formica and chuky missed that (even though it was mentioned about a half dozen times) and instead focused on a point that jen0910 never made in the first place (that she had been treated poorly).

The only "emotions" I was remarking on was how defensive people were getting about how a company should handle things - it was clear there were biases showing and I feel it's necessary to add a little balance.

Much of the confusion and frustration of this thread could have been avoided had posters READ what jen0910 had said in the first place:



jen0910 said:


> I was pretty annoyed that I had to go through all of that for a warranty issue but at least the woman that I talked to on the phone worked with me and found the demo saddle as a solution. I got the saddle in the mail today and it looked basically new, I just hope the rails on this one last longer.





jen0910 said:


> I agree that in the end I was treated OK getting a demo replacement saddle, I was very happy that they were able to offer that to me as a solution.





jen0910 said:


> I was just trying to share my experience to let others know that Terry seems to treat warranty issues as "returns". Other companies that I have dealt with have offered repair or replacement for defects and I was surprised that Terry didn't.





jen0910 said:


> I was just trying to share my story to see if others have had similar experiences with Terry saddles. I liked my Falcon saddle but I would think twice about purchasing another one if too many other people have had them break.


And I implore those posting and/or reading this thread to tell me honestly that you would be okay with a saddle breaking in under a year at the rail if you hadn't crashed or landed on it with substantial force, regardless of how warranty was handled. I've mangled some saddles up pretty badly but still haven't SNAPPED a rail, especially one that hadn't been crashed.


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## jen0910 (Mar 25, 2009)

connie said:


> In my opinion, you want something pretty unreasonable - products that never break (which is thoroughly impossible, especially considering we usually also want those same products to weigh less and less) and companies that can give you a full warranty on anything. I mean, that would be nice as a customer, but it doesn't sound rational to me. Personally, I think Terry handled this situation just fine. And I think if you got 700 miles out of a saddle and then got a gift certificate for most of the value of a new product, that sounds like a deal to me. I'd be happy with that.


I never said that I expected the saddle to last forever, I just think that a year of light to normal riding seems like a very short life for a saddle. Short enough that I believe that there was a manufacturing defect. If I had crashed and broken a rail I would either have eaten the cost or e-mailed the company to ask if I could buy a replacement as Deanna did. If I had trashed the saddle by being careless or riding hard or if I had been using it for a while and it had simply worn out I would not have complained. As cchase86 has pointed out (thanks) I made sure to mention in my posts that I was happy with the outcome of the situation and that I think that Terry treated me fairly. I suppose it is out of my hands now but I was really (as I have said) interested in others experience with the durability (or lack thereof) of Terry saddles. If mine was an isolated incident I would be more comfortable supporting Terry in the future.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

chuky said:


> Generally speaking, not cool to come into a women's environment and start talking about people being over-emotional, it comes off as either sexist or self-hating depending upon your gender. Besides, I believe the technical term is "hysterical" and something to do with our periods and repressed sexuality - the Victorians had it all figured out, heh.


It's those damn wandering wombs again......this thread is making me cry


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

I'm surprised they didn't just send a new saddle, but that's my 2 cents. Maybe they just had some boring meeting where a bunch of board members decided that only gift cards will be given for warranty/product replacement. Maybe some new manager made a decision based on voodoo. who knows. At least they didn't say "tough luck, stuff breaks" (which it does).

BTW formica and chuky both have very good perspectives, coming from years of experience in bike/gear industries, not to mention a firm commitment to women's cycling and sports. Appreciate your guys input and food for thought. 

LOL at coming into a women's forum and accusing people of "emotional responses". That's asking for trouble by negating whatever point was made.


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## jen0910 (Mar 25, 2009)

Impy said:


> LOL at coming into a women's forum and accusing people of "emotional responses". That's asking for trouble by negating whatever point was made.


Umm, where did it say that cchase isn't a woman? Also, I don't really understand how the word "emotion" is derogatory towards women. I have read plenty of threads in the other "manly" forums where people seem to get pretty emotional about things, an example being the neverending thread about a jackwagon peeing too close to another man on the trail. If that isn't over-emotional what is?  Not to defend or offend anyone, but I (as a woman and a forum member and a cyclist) found nothing offensive about the word emotional being used.

Also, I only posted this in the Women's Lounge because I didn't know where to post it and Terry is more of a women's company. I would welcome any responses from men who have Terry saddles.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

I am emotionally bereft after that statement.


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## deanna (Jan 15, 2004)

And for something completely random. When I see the "pewpewpew" on Impy's profile/avatar/whatever, this image immediately comes to mind:


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

deanna said:


> And for something completely random. When I see the "pewpewpew" on Impy's profile/avatar/whatever, this image immediately comes to mind:












Seriously though, why none of us should take Forums seriously:









Noone here intends to upset anyone on purpose (myself included). Debate is good and lively and you will always learn something new, at least until the cats clog it up.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

jen0910 said:


> I never said that I expected the saddle to last forever, I just think that a year of light to normal riding seems like a very short life for a saddle. Short enough that I believe that there was a manufacturing defect. If I had crashed and broken a rail I would either have eaten the cost or e-mailed the company to ask if I could buy a replacement as Deanna did. If I had trashed the saddle by being careless or riding hard or if I had been using it for a while and it had simply worn out I would not have complained. As cchase86 has pointed out (thanks) I made sure to mention in my posts that I was happy with the outcome of the situation and that I think that Terry treated me fairly. I suppose it is out of my hands now but I was really (as I have said) interested in others experience with the durability (or lack thereof) of Terry saddles. If mine was an isolated incident I would be more comfortable supporting Terry in the future.


I should have been clearer - I wasn't referring to your original post, just referring to where cchase86 said "_Personally, if I bought any component, used it normally, and had it BREAK, I would want it replaced. Don't turn this into "how much did it cost you per day and when do you get your moneys worth out of it?""_

The way I read that it sounds like under normal use, components should be expected to last forever, which seems impractical to me. Certainly a products "lifetime" is a debateable definition, but expecting that quality items can only break when abused seems kind of like an impossible standard to meet. Obviously "abuse" is also debatable, so factor that in there too... but what I'm saying is that I don't expect everything to come with a lifetime warranty. If it does, I might think about paying more for it, but I don't expect that kind of customer service unless it is specifically advertised to be that way.

I have had a nice OEM saddle that broke within a month or two of riding it, and with no visible scuffs or cosmetic damage - the spot where the rail should attach to the saddle broke loose. I threw it in the closet and bought a new one - from the same company. I guess I should dig it out and see if they'd warranty it, but I've never gotten around to it. I think I was also in the mood for a different model/color anyway so I just bought the new one I wanted. I've had other saddles that have lasted for years though. I guess overall, I expect a saddle to last a couple years if I don't damage it in a crash, but on one of my bikes that gets less use, it might last a decade (assuming I kept a bike that long). Though clearly, the time it lasts is also related to how much you ride, whether you have multiple bikes you're spreading your ride time across, etc. Everyone's year of riding is going to be pretty different.

Sorry I can't answer your question better. The only Terry saddle I owned, I sold because it just wasn't comfortable for me and didn't use it enough to give a durability report. But I've had good luck with the other Terry clothing items I own, and when I had a question at one point, their customer service was responsive and friendly, so I can't complain.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Terry - and I - think saddles should typically last a lot longer than 700 miles. See their FAQs below. Interesting though, the last paragraph that talks about how seatpost designs can affect saddle life. Also below is their "guarantee", which after the marketing "unconditional" language, lists all the conditions, including the issuance of a gift certificate if it's been >30 days, as they initially offered the OP. There is wiggle room on "defective" products, where it seems they are also willing to cover shipping.

Many years ago I brought a pretty new Terry saddle back to the LBS because the cover was coming off (it was cheaply stapled underneath). The LBS called Terry to see if they would cover it, and I distinctly remember the person on the line saying "cheap Taiwanese cr*p", which we thought was pretty funny, but also points out that companies selling products can also be disappointed in manufacturers' quality.

I think the dumbest "warranties" are those where the fine print indicates that it will cost you as much or more in "shipping and handling" as the cost of the original item.

_
How long should a saddle last?

This is a tough question to answer as there are so many variables - weight of rider, riding style, care given to equipment, climate in which equipment is used, where the saddle is mounted on the rail, if the rider wears cycling shorts or ? while riding and a host of other things.

With all that said, 5,000 miles is a reasonable amount of miles to expect from a saddle. 10,000-15,000 miles is at the high end of the scale. 15,000-20,000 is looking for rail or base failure. (All of these expectations can be severely reduced by an abusive riding style, extremes in temperature and one or more of the other things listed above.)

A saddle that is "broken in" should feel "softer" than a new saddle. The base hasn't been "seated" onto the rails; the foam hasn't contoured to the rider's sitting position; the leather is still stiff.

The saddle can continue to be ridden for many more miles if:

* the cover isn't torn

* the edges of the leather cover aren't showing signs of wear through

* the foam under the leather doesn't have any "soft" spots indicating foam breakdown

* the edges around the soft tissue area aren't breaking down

The only other thing that might happen is a rail breaking due to a stress riser caused by the seat post cradle. That is something that you can't predict as it won't show up until the rail breaks. Some brands of seat post cradles break rails more quickly than others -- Syncros, early Control Techs and American Classics all used "straight cut" sharp edge seat cradles that create stress risers. These stress risers can be reduced by rounding the edge of the cradle with a file where the rail exits the cradle -- top/bottom and front/rear. _

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

_OUR GUARANTEE

Ride it. Wear it. Love it or Return it. We're proud of the products we sell and we back them, unconditionally. If for any reason you're not completely satisfied with your Terry purchase, simply return it for an exchange, credit or refund*. 
REFUNDS AND EXCHANGES

....
Saddles must be returned within 30 days, apparel and accessories within 60 days for a full refund unless defective. 
...
* Returns received after 60 days (30 days for saddles) will be applied to an exchange or gift certificate only. In addition, if the item has since gone on sale, a gift certificate will be issued for the sale price, not the original price paid. Refunds do not include the original shipping fee, unless the product is deemed defective as determined by an employee of Terry. _


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## jen0910 (Mar 25, 2009)

mtbxplorer said:


> Terry - and I - think saddles should typically last a lot longer than 700 miles. See their FAQs below. Interesting though, the last paragraph that talks about how seatpost designs can affect saddle life. Also below is their "guarantee", which after the marketing "unconditional" language, lists all the conditions, including the issuance of a gift certificate if it's been >30 days, as they initially offered the OP. There is wiggle room on "defective" products, where it seems they are also willing to cover shipping.[/I]


Thanks for posting the info from Terry's site. I'm glad to see in writing from a company that 700 miles is a short life for a saddle. I did see that when I was looking for warranty info but I promptly forgot that I had read it. I didn't remember the part about the seatposts though. I don't think that my seatpost was the problem in this case. If I am understanding that correctly that would cause the rail to break where it contacts the seatpost clamp, my rail broke at the 90* bend up to the saddle at the back.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

...


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

formica said:


> ...


Not sure if you were asking, but the "..."''s were irrelevant info I didn't paste here for brevity's sake. Their address, exchange info, etc. From The Terry Guarantee and Returns Policy


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

mtbxplorer said:


> Not sure if you were asking, but the "..."''s were irrelevant info I didn't paste here for brevity's sake. Their address, exchange info, etc. From The Terry Guarantee and Returns Policy


thanks but that wasn't it at all.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

formica said:


> thanks but that wasn't it at all.


I think at this point, we need to assume that several points have been missed


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## cchase86 (Mar 7, 2006)

Everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath.

The information posted here from Terry's website puts to rest a number of issues raised by posters within this thread, including critically the question of "how long should a saddle last?" and perhaps even more relevantly, "how long should the rails on a saddle last?"

Clearly even Terry believes that this saddle should not have failed. Thus, it would seem to me that their logical course of action would have been to supply jen0910 with an "exchange" per their warranty information. They did, but only with prodding. Herein lies the point I have been trying to make from the beginning.


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## LadyDi (Apr 17, 2005)

I have that saddle. I hope it doesn't break on me.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

cchase86 said:


> Everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath.
> 
> The information posted here from Terry's website puts to rest a number of issues raised by posters within this thread, including critically the question of "how long should a saddle last?" and perhaps even more relevantly, "how long should the rails on a saddle last?"
> 
> Clearly even Terry believes that this saddle should not have failed. Thus, it would seem to me that their logical course of action would have been to supply jen0910 with an "exchange" per their warranty information. They did, but only with prodding. Herein lies the point I have been trying to make from the beginning.


No one has argued with this point. The only questions have been around what _would_ make it acceptable for the buyer, and she has yet to actually register her opinions on those questions.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Personally, I would have preferred their initial offer of the gift card toward a new saddle, provided I had the cash on hand to make up the difference. I'd rather get a different or newer model which might have different specs, in case it was not a fluke that the old one failed.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

LadyDi said:


> I have that saddle. I hope it doesn't break on me.


Pretty unlikely that you need to worry, just inspect the rails every once in a while, as you should with any saddle. Your saddle is made by a high-end facility and they are pretty good at what they do.

Posts like LadyDi's illustrate the quandary of forums. They can be a great place to get product info and can help both buyers and companies to spot problems before they become big. But the forums also have that "evening news" effect - people typically only post to complain, and one person's problem becomes significantly magnified and causes people to doubt products that they love.

Maybe if every time we liked a product we posted, too, it would be different, but when was the last time anyone on this thread started a conversation to say that they were really happy with something?

Bottom line, I like the forums (clearly, or I wouldn't have as many posts as I do  ) - they are flawed but important. However, I do think that it is important to consider all angles in order to keep conversations accurate and reflective of reality.


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## jen0910 (Mar 25, 2009)

chuky said:


> No one has argued with this point. The only questions have been around what _would_ make it acceptable for the buyer, and she has yet to actually register her opinions on those questions.


I was fine with getting the demo saddle, I just expected the product to last longer. After reading the Terry warranty info that was posted, wouldn't you have expected an exchange? Why am I getting a hard time for pushing for something that their warranty implies would have been the outcome? What other questions would you like to have answered? My original question about people's experiences with Terry saddles remains largely unanswered as well. I think that consumers should have high expectations of a product and a company. I see things in other areas of my life (I am relatively new to cycling so I don't know about this field as much as you and others do) where products seem to be getting more and more cheaply made. Either because people/stores are calling for cheaper prices for the goods or because when things break and companies get away with it it gives them an incentive to keep pushing their luck. I thought that by not "cheaping out" on my saddle purchase from a smaller company that it was going to last. While I understand that a lifetime warranty on what is essentially a wear item is silly, I felt that because the saddle lasted such a short time why should I bother spending that much again when I could but a cheap piece of crap saddle that would probably last that long. I buy $15-20 a pair socks because they are made in the USA by a small company and I feel that the product is high quality. So, I am willing to spend money on a higher quality product but a company should at least stand behind their products/warranty.


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## jen0910 (Mar 25, 2009)

mtbxplorer said:


> Personally, I would have preferred their initial offer of the gift card toward a new saddle, provided I had the cash on hand to make up the difference. I'd rather get a different or newer model which might have different specs, in case it was not a fluke that the old one failed.


Personally, I didn't like the styling of the new saddle, I'm not big on pink. It also had different dimensions so I didn't know if it would be comfortable for me, nor did I have the cash on hand.


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

jen0910 said:


> Has anyone else had any issues like this, either with their saddle failing or warranty problems?


I used to really like Terry saddles. Then they changed the design of their Liberator and it doesn't work for me anymore. (Isn't that always the case? Bras & bike saddles, I tell ya.)

I tried a different model (might have been the Butterfly), but *three in a row* that I ordered had really crappy upholstery jobs. Like, a kindergartner with a glue gun could have done a better job. This was about a year ago, maybe two. I haven't really looked at them since.

gabrielle


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