# Why are ALL brake levers STILL designed for 2-finger braking?



## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Huh? Um, no.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Your photo doesn’t show. ^


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Haven't had a single problem adjusting any modern brake lever to fit my fingers for one-finger braking.

That pic doesn't show up on my pc, either. But I checked and it appears on tapatalk just fine.

Anyway, no. That lever setup does not look optimal. You do not have it adjusted properly. The problem is you, not the brake lever.

How to Set up your Brake Levers perfectly | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

I like my levers, fit perfect.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

imgur no worky on mtbr. Here's your image OP:


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

lol

I think Sram levers are longer. But your "good" doesn't have much room to travel, it is closer to the bar, wouldn't that make the engagement too close? You'd also have to push them in closer to your stem (which you illustrated), but your "good" is still positioned where your one finger would be hitting it in the middle, so less leverage and nothing gained.


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## YetiBear (Dec 2, 2004)

Maybe cuz I still brake with 2 fingers. I started mountain biking 20 years ago while my feet were captured in cages. After a few good falls I switched to flats. Never changed my fingers though. Now it's hard to teach an old Dawg new tricks. I like my two finger style and my kids also make fun of me pecking the keyboard with my two finger style.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

tealy said:


> I know how to set up brake levers, mister beginner/intermediate bike instructor. Even if I adjusted it much closer to my handlebar (which would make the engagement too close the bar) it still wouldn't be parallel or long enough or contoured right.


I coach beginner riders, idiot.

This is something that I cover anytime I work with beginners.

Why is a straight lever so important to you? So you don't like the shape of Shimano levers. So what? Have you tried other brands?

If you haven't noticed, shimano levers ARE straight when pulled. You don't want your fingers sliding off when in the middle of a max braking effort. I don't want the lever hitting my other knuckles, either.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

tealy said:


> Does this make sense to anyone?
> 
> View attachment 1184808


So basically you want a Magura lever.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

tealy said:


> I know how to set up brake levers, mister beginner/intermediate bike instructor. Even if I adjusted it much closer to my handlebar (which would make the engagement too close the bar) it still wouldn't be parallel or long enough or contoured right.


Evidence in this thread is pointing to the fact, that no, no you do not.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## YetiBear (Dec 2, 2004)

I also have Trumpy fingers.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Should I go get the popcorn now, or wait?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> imgur no worky on mtbr. Here's your image OP:
> 
> View attachment 1184806


Thanks for making that viewable for all.


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

tealy said:


> Does this look optimal?


It looks like it will be optimal by the time you've pulled it into the bite point.

Starting off with a lever that is parallel to the bar is going to put it at an angle that encourages your finger to slide outwards at maximum effort when you've squeezed it in. Starting off with the lever like your pic shows means it should be roughly parallel to the bar when you're squeezing tight. That makes sense to me.

As or the two finger size thing, who knows? I ride with one guy who brakes with his middle finger rather than index finger, maybe a slightly larger lever allows more room for that? I only use one finger [index] but never have thought I needed smaller levers.


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## MCHB (Jun 23, 2014)

I'm suddenly reminded of that scene from Prometheus 2 with the flute.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

mmm.... popcorn needs a little more butter, please ^^

'We'll all make it to the top... Some of us, might not make it to the bottom'


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I brake with only the second fingers of each hand. I have for decades and have never had trouble getting a lever blade to be exactly where I want it and for the pads to engage the rotor or rim exactly when I want them to, and have modulation perfect. Its not too difficult. Just some fine tuning.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

I like Shimano brake levers.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

aerius said:


> So basically you want a Magura lever.


On a serious note, that HC3 lever is amazing!


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Harold said:


> Haven't had a single problem adjusting any modern brake lever to fit my fingers for one-finger braking.


Me neither. Is this a non-problem?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

tealy said:


> That's better but just move the crook on lever 3 out to the end of lever 1 and now I'm happy.


You dont need all of that leverage with modern day brakes. Especially if you are running Magura!


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> Me neither. Is this a non-problem?


most definitely a "non-problem"


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

tealy said:


> That's better but just move the crook on lever 3 out to the end of lever 1 and now I'm happy.


Why? You are only braking with "one" finger, how much room do you need?

Maybe you can take a class with Harold, he is a great instructor and would help out a lot.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tealy said:


> I want a lever that is parallel with my bar, crooked to ONE finger, and long for extra power. Is that too much to ask? Does this look optimal?


I'm having difficulty reconciling the idea of a long one finger brake lever. If it were long wouldn't it be a two or three finger lever?

Your positioning in the photo looks fine to me but if you want the blade more parallel to the bar then I believe it has a reach adjustment (at least the XT level does).


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Most all common brake levers are roughly parallel to the bar at the bite point. 

Brake power is the product of lever ratio, ratio of caliper piston to lever piston area, brake pad coefficient of friction, and rotor diameter. And, there are practical tradeoffs among these. For example, increasing either or both of the first two will make the lever mushier. 

Also, brakes can be too powerful in that they would require and inordinate amount of care to prevent a wheel from locking/sliding or putting you over the bars. There is an optimum power that certainly would vary a bit between individuals.

IMO, the current popular brakesets are close to optimum for the average rider and a degree of tunability can be achieved with lever adjustments, rotor diameter, and brake pad composition.


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

I think he wants a 4 bar lever! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 

So after a century and a half of bicycles and a century+ of motorcycles, the lever is now a problem for 1 person and he insist that it's fixed... NOW!

LOL!!! 

Ttyl, Fahn


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Hydro Goldfinger?


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Harold said:


> Haven't had a single problem adjusting any modern brake lever to fit my fingers for one-finger braking.
> 
> The problem is you, not the brake lever.


Yup. Shimano brake levers are perfect for me, absolutely perfect.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Cheers.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

To give OP some credit, I was browsing the thread on the new 12spd XTR bits, and I noticed that in Shimano's spec sheet for hydro brake levers that the levers ARE designed to accommodate 2-finger braking.

With that said, this thread definitely shows that not everyone brakes with one finger, or even if they do, they don't all choose to brake with their index finger. So brake mfr's need to design a lever that accommodates people's preferences. Being an index-finger-using one-finger-braker, I do not have any problems whatsoever with Shimano's lever blade design. I can adjust it so that I'm comfortable. Seems like just about everyone else has managed how to figure out how to adjust their brakes to their liking, as well.


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## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

Maybe if we had all obsessed to the edge of insanity about this for a decade or more, we too would understand the noob brake lever issue.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

JackWare said:


> Maybe if we had all obsessed to the edge of insanity about this for a decade or more, we too would understand the noob brake lever issue.


It's all very complicated. :lol::lol:


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

Coming from a bicycle component manufacturer background, there is always" that guy" that has a particular needed which is probably awesome for them, but from a manufacturing standpoint, you design products that work with the vast majority of end users. If the OP has a need and believes that he could have a big following where he can produce and sell aftermarket brake levers that fit every brake, knock yourself out, but obviously it's not a sustainable market, therefor no one really does it. I suggest having some shop make some custom levers for you.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> there is always" that guy"


Hey, that's me!

In this case tho, not me. I've been able to slide my brake levers (Elixir) inboard so I can use one finger comfortably. I'm still confused at what the OP's having a problem with.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I'd personally prefer if the fulcrum on most brakes were further from the bar, but I have some large hands. Those newer magura levers are super nice.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

tealy said:


> Sorry I wasted y'all's time but I really do dislike the lever being 30 degrees angled to my finger at full extension and the crook being halfway down the lever where there's half the leverage. Maybe I'm just weird.
> 
> Probably has something to do with me hauling ass into endos and having fun with abubacas and rear wheel stuff like that.
> 
> ...


Again, you're not the only person in the world that does these things with the brakes that exist today. Also, I've found that when one is asserting one's level of skill on a semi-anonymous message board to "win" an argument that one's skill is not what they think/claim it is. That's just a general rule though.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## djlee (Feb 5, 2009)

Why are you complaining about your lever's ergonomics when your grips are upside-down? That would bug the sh1t out of me 

Shimano I-spec will allow you to adjust the shifter relative to the lever, so you could move the lever more inboard while maintaining your shifter's postion or however you prefer. I honestly don't know if Deore level componentry has this, though.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Don't know about anyone else, but my fat ass needs to perform a two-finger death punch on the levers to manage steep downhill sections. Once on flatter ground, I switch to one finger dancing in the daisies and tulips braking. Seems Shimano dumbed brake levers down for idiots like me. Sorry.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

tealy said:


> Sorry I wasted y'all's time but I really do dislike the lever being 30 degrees angled to my finger at full extension and the crook being halfway down the lever where there's half the leverage. Maybe I'm just weird.
> 
> Probably has something to do with me hauling ass into endos and having fun with abubacas and rear wheel stuff like that.
> 
> ...


I have short fingers and understand what you wish for. Unfortunately the masses get catered to, so we have to fabricate or adapt.


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

Hey Tealy, Just put it in a vice and bend it more so your finger hooks up where you want it. They aren't much money if you brake it by accident. Maybe tape the end also to keep your finger from sliding to the outside. Become the metal worker within.

Note: Actually serious this time. I'm a metal artist and form and shape metal for a living.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

bamwa said:


> Hey Tealy, Just put it in a vice and bend it more so your finger hooks up where you want it. They aren't much money if you brake it by accident. Maybe tape the end also to keep your finger from sliding to the outside. Become the metal worker within.
> 
> Note: Actually serious this time. I'm a metal artist and form and shape metal for a living.


Are you a metal artist of brake levers? I've broken them before, it's not very bendable aluminum.

It could be possible, but it could also lead to a broken lever when he needs it most.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

Flamingtaco said:


> Don't know about anyone else, but my fat ass needs to perform a two-finger death punch on the levers to manage steep downhill sections.


But do you even abubuacas?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Flamingtaco said:


> Don't know about anyone else, but my fat ass needs to perform a two-finger death punch on the levers to manage steep downhill sections. Once on flatter ground, I switch to one finger dancing in the daisies and tulips braking. Seems Shimano dumbed brake levers down for idiots like me. Sorry.


you need more braking power my man


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Should I go get the popcorn now, or wait?


Popcorn or not...we're both "IBTL". :lol: Amazing what people will get all twisted over.


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## Charlie Don't Surf (Mar 31, 2017)

I'm only 175#, 5' 11" and on a 19" Trek frame, but I have zero issues with XT brakes and one finger setup all the time


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

I was on a loaner bike for a couple days that had Guide brakes. Liked everything about them except the lever was just wrong. Shimano XT ftw.


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

Alright, I'll be honest for a minute. The ideal brake you're looking for are Hayes. I had my remedy built up with the Stroker Aces in 2010 and sold that bike last spring. The brakes we're bled the day I set them up and I never had an issue with them for 8 seasons of riding. Their lever is what you're looking for. Fwiw, I'm not a small guy, usually in the 300lb range, but these brakes on an enduro bike have no issue stopping me with one finger... But they weren't as powerful as my Codes or Hope V4's are. So for DH, I might recommend something else. Here's an image of the lever at full extension.
Notice where the pivot is at.
https://m.pinkbike.com/product/hayes/Stroker-Ace/

Ttyl, Fahn


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

LarryFahn said:


> Alright, I'll be honest for a minute. The ideal brake you're looking for are Hayes. I had my remedy built up with the Stroker Aces in 2010 and sold that bike last spring. The brakes we're bled the day I set them up and I never had an issue with them for 8 seasons of riding. Their lever is what you're looking for. Fwiw, I'm not a small guy, usually in the 300lb range, but these brakes on an enduro bike have no issue stopping me with one finger... But they weren't as powerful as my Codes or Hope V4's are. So for DH, I might recommend something else. Here's an image of the lever at full extension.
> Notice where the pivot is at.
> https://m.pinkbike.com/product/hayes/Stroker-Ace/
> 
> Ttyl, Fahn


Yep, another brake lever that fits what he is looking for are the Formula brakes. See OP, they do make them you just don't use them!


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Slide your brake lever inboard from the grip by 1 cm. You're welcome.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tealy said:


> Sorry I wasted y'all's time but I really do dislike the *lever being 30 degrees angled* to my finger at full extension and the* crook being halfway down the lever* where there's half the leverage.


Regarding point 1 -- Do Deore brakes have a reach adjustment? Here's an image that shows how to adjust reach so that the lever is closer to parallel. If yours has something similar then maybe that'll help?









Regarding point 2 -- Can you clarify what you mean by "crook?" I had been thinking you meant the hook at the end of the lever but your statement above implies otherwise. Do you mean the bend in the lever? If you're 1-finger braking then you should adjust your levers (slide them inboard on the bar) so that your finger lands further outboard near the hook at the end.

Can you draw a picture of what your ideal lever/bar setup would look like? I saw your simple graphic above but how about a pencil and paper drawing?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Just get bigger hands? Checked out some custom or Paul levers. I too am outside the bell curve of the 80% of riders on the large size. Try finding size 15 or 16 shoes.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Is this a Picard thread?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Charlie Don't Surf said:


> I'm only 175#, 5' 11" and on a 19" Trek frame, but I have zero issues with XT brakes and one finger setup all the time


Do tell, and what does your weight, height and frame size have to do with your brake setup in any shape size or form? Or maybe you forgot to add in the little winky dude. >>


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

Coaster brakes don't even need fingers.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

If you rode bmx in the 90s, you learned to shape your Diacompe Tech 99 levers using a blow torch and a box wrench. If you were smart, you used two wrenches.


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

^ That's what I'm screaming. DIY FTW.

If it takes prybars or torches to bend I doubt anyone's fleshy little fingers will snap it.
Even if you have twinkie fingers. What a bunch of helpful problem solvers we are!


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

OP hands


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

tealy said:


> View attachment 1185076
> 
> Obviously I'm not an artist or engineer but is close to what I want.


Looks like the second you start pulling it's smashing your other fingers. No thanks, I'll keep my brakes designed by pro engineers based on feedback from pro riders... Which have been working perfectly for me.

As was said, move your brakes 1 cm towards the stem and they'll feel much better. You are supposed to line them up so your pointer finger rests in the crook naturally, which you clearly did not do.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

bamwa said:


> Coaster brakes don't even need fingers.


 Brakes just slow you down, I aint got time for that.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Seems like a solution in search of a problem to me.

The thought of one finger or two (or four for that matter) for braking has never entered my consciousness.


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

Unless that lever is sitting right on the bite point in that position (which doesn't sound great either) it looks like it would be terrible IMO. By the time you've squeezed it in you'll nearly be at the bar and past the point of maximum effort (with the lever parallel to the bar), and it looks like your finger would easily slip off the end in wet or rough conditions. Plus when you're brakes are toast after a massive descent there's no room if you find you have to use two fingers to get that extra squeeze.

I'm sure they'd be sweet for pulling sick endos and abubacas though, if that's what you're into.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

https://www.uspto.gov/patent


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm in the "non-problem" camp on this one. SLX/XT brakes for the past 6 years and no problems stopping with one-finger braking. Adjust the reach, make sure they're bled correctly, go ride and forget about it.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

Hey Mr Tealy, with all the options people have suggested, it looks like it's time to treat yourself.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

I get the impression that brake levers have developed to suit the fit and use they see and no magic fix is necessary or possible. They could make levers any shape, many have been tried and the ones we have are the ones people like. If there was a better way to make a lever, it would be on a bike by now.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

That's like saying, "everything that can be invented, has been invented".


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

tealy said:


> View attachment 1185076
> 
> Obviously I'm not an artist or engineer but this is kinda what I want.
> 
> How does this not make sense for 1-finger braking?


the instant you touch this lever, if it were built this way, 
braking forces get weaker and weaker.

this is the lever of diminishing returns

--------------------------------------------

which is why you don't see them. Mountain Kings have all been there and done that at RedBull Rampage and other intense gravity fests where awesome brakes and pretty much mandatory...and if there was an optimal lever design for braking, manufacturers would already be producing them.

Oh yeah, there is an optimal design and manufacturers are making them already.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

tealy said:


> I don't think that argument works.
> 
> For instance, we still haven't figured out frame geometry. Or tires.


tealy, put down grandpa's prune juice and think about things for a bit. really.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

chuckha62 said:


> That's like saying, "everything that can be invented, has been invented".


No, it isn't.


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

tealy said:


> I don't think that argument works.
> 
> For instance, we still haven't figured out frame geometry. Or tires.


Ok, so the BFOs meet your needs and match your drawings almost exactly. Did you order them yet?

I want to hear how they work. Ride report. Ride report, Ride report.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

tealy said:


> Can't find or afford the BFOs. Would love to though.


So are we supposed to find them and then get a pool together to get them for you?


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> No, it isn't.


Okay then, never mind.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tealy said:


> https://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/09/meet-brake-force-one/
> Oh man looks like the Germans are already on it.
> 
> Trialtech Carthy Rim Brake Lever - TRIALPROD
> Trials is already on it. What do they know about stopping?


Hey, there you go! Too bad there are no American distributors yet.


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## nauc (Sep 9, 2009)

this is pretty much how i do mine. and set the "reach" to whats comfy...

and if i have to hit the brakes really hard, i slide my hand over a tiny bit and grab the lever with 2 fingers


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## maddslacker (Mar 13, 2009)

My daughter and I both run Shimano brakes. I brake with my index finger, she with her middle finger. I have never had an issue adjusting the levers for our respective preferences and hand sizes.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

For those that brake with there middle finger, how long did it take to get used to.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Cerberus75 said:


> For those that brake with there middle finger, how long did it take to get used to.


Serious question, assuming you have index fingers why would anyone want to do this?


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## maddslacker (Mar 13, 2009)

tealy said:


> I feel like a lot of people are misunderstanding my issue. It's not that I can't reach or adjust levers. It's that levers aren't shaped to fit your index finger. I want a lever that fits flush to my finger and is not angled up at the end.


So cut the ends off?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Travis Bickle said:


> Serious question, assuming you have index fingers why would anyone want to do this?


Lol serious answer...my middle finger is long enough not to worry about the brake levers of most brands. My index finger just short enough that if I set the levers to fit, it seems I loose power or they go to the bars before fully clamped.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cerberus75 said:


> Lol serious answer...my middle finger is long enough not to worry about the brake levers of most brands. My index finger just short enough that if I set the levers to fit, it seems I loose power or they go to the bars before fully clamped.


Why do you think humans were given < keeping religious beliefs out of it 
Index and middle fingers? Middle finger alone braking makes ZERO sense.

I've had it with this idiotic thread.

Is everyone listening? How does one brake with a middle fInger "Alone". It can work but you're missing out on what humans were built for.

Use your index finger in conjunction with your middle finger [two finger braking] and I guarantee a whole new world of braking will open up to you. Seriously! Happy trails to you, until we meet again.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Travis Bickle said:


> Serious question, assuming you have index fingers why would anyone want to do this?


I tried it and found that I had much less bar control than doing one-finger braking with my index. I have much more grip strength using my 3rd/4th/5th fingers wrapped around the bar. Maybe its a matter of conditioning?



tealy said:


> I feel like a lot of people are misunderstanding my issue. It's not that I can't reach or adjust levers. It's that levers aren't shaped to fit your index finger. I want a lever that fits flush to my finger and is not angled up at the end.


Are you talking about the hook at the end of the lever? Now I really don't understand what you're wanting. You want a flat blade?


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Try using your mouse with your middle finger.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Cornfield said:


> Try using your mouse with your middle finger.


I do this and have a sticky proximal inter-phalangeal joint.

I don't have any problems braking with both or either one of my index & middle fingers.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

My braking became more comfortable after I flipped shifter and brake for the shifter to be outboard (closer to hand) and brake inboard (closer to stem). That way my index finger is the only one that naturally reaches the lever. I still can add my middle finger if i make effort, but index finger is natural.

Maybe the OP's problem is that most bikes come with the brake too close to the hand, which brings the index finger int eh middle of the lever (less leverage!). Basically they still set them up for cable brakes where you need more fingers.

indexfinger braking also improves handling since it leaves 4 fingers on the handlebar.

I believe this video is what motivated me to flip shifter/brake. I had to move shifter outside since it was too far away from my thumb by just moving the brake inwards (SRAM).

hope this helps.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Lol, I ask about middle finger braking and I noe feel like I've been obscene and vulgar. Sorry OP carry on.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

HerrKaLeun said:


> Maybe the OP's problem is that most bikes come with the brake too close to the hand, which brings the index finger int eh middle of the lever (less leverage!). Basically they still set them up for cable brakes where you need more fingers.


this drives me insane! walking into a bike shop and seeing every bike on the floor assembled with the lever slammed into the grip and pointed at every possible angle. for 99% of riders, this is sub-optimal.

when i worked in a shop, we assembled bikes with the handlebar flat, the lever pointed down at a 45 degree angle, and the brake lever clamp 25mm from the end of the grip. this was not guaranteed to be ideal for every rider, but it gave them a consistent baseline to test ride several bikes and have a comparable experience.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Is braking with the ring or pinky finger right out?


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## Entrenador (Oct 8, 2004)

If Prometheus 2 was a sequel to American Pie, then I need to rent that one stat.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

tealy said:


> Middle finger braking isn't my thing but I get why people do it. The middle finger is way stronger than the index. Bmx legend Steven Hamilton does this and he throws down the best abudabcas.


I know how to do an abubaca on a BMX bike, and it has nothing to do with how you brake on a mountain bike. mashing your lever as hard as possible to lock up the wheel with a u-brake so you don't slip off a ledge has little to do with feathering your hydraulic disc brake to scrub speed before entering an off-camber turn in a trail. in my bmx days, I never got that good, but Hamilton is definitely an outlier, as most riders use just their index finger or two fingers. I have been watching Hamilton ride for many years and he's definitely rad though.

brake levers are not designed for two-finger brake, you're just setting them up incorrectly so it seems that way. you need to learn to adjust the brake levers you have or try a few different brakes. I guarantee you that you are the only person who complains about this specific problem.


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## Entrenador (Oct 8, 2004)

chuckha62 said:


> Seems like a solution in search of a problem to me.
> 
> The thought of one finger or two (or four for that matter) for braking has never entered my consciousness.


Okay, I've done the math. So tell me, who made your thumb levers?


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## Entrenador (Oct 8, 2004)

Fixed it


Nat said:


> Hey, there you go! Too bad there are no American distributors yet...*after more than six years*.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

Something I learned from racing motorcycles, more fingers on the lever, the better the control


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

terrasmak said:


> Something I learned from racing motorcycles, more fingers on the lever, the better the control


Four finger braking? I don't think that applies to mountain biking.


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

Is this just more whining about nothing from another lazy millennial generation mountain biker? Pfffttt.


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## DDDonny (Sep 14, 2005)

DeadGrandpa said:


> Is this just more whining about nothing from another lazy millennial generation mountain biker? Pfffttt.


Yup!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

tealy said:


> Point 1. Most serious mountain bikers use 1 finger braking. Do we have to even argue that this is superior to 2 fingers?
> 
> Point 2. Given that most people 1 finger brake, shouldn't brake levers be designed for 1 finger braking? So how does the trials lever picture below not seems like a better design than the traditional lever (xt below) for 1 finger braking?
> 
> ...


POINT 1 rebuttal: I guarantee triple dog dare that I am way more serious mountain biker than you, and I use 4 fingers, one finger, 8 fingers, 4.5 fingers... my thumb, three fingers, a wooden donut, and sometimes a chin strap to use my brakes.

the point is: there is no way in hell YOU are gonna tell anyone else what the 'deal is' with how brakes should, could , or would function.

your thread is gettin tired, son


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

HerrKaLeun said:


> Maybe the OP's problem is that most bikes come with the brake too close to the hand, which brings the index finger int eh middle of the lever (less leverage!).


Complaining about the position of the controls on a new bike is like complaining that your new car didn't arrive with the seat adjusted for you.



DeadGrandpa said:


> Is this just more whining about nothing from another lazy millennial generation mountain biker?


Everyone needs a hobby?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tealy said:


> View attachment 1185363


I wouldn't mind trying this Trial Tech lever.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

One finger brake lever?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

DeadGrandpa said:


> Is this just more whining about nothing from another lazy millennial generation mountain biker? Pfffttt.


You've got a good sniffer on ya.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

tealy said:


> Hah. Make it twice as long and I'm buying it.


That's what she said.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Entrenador said:


> Okay, I've done the math. So tell me, who made your thumb levers?


Note that I said four, not five.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

tealy said:


> It would be more like if you bought a new car and had to switch the brake and gas pedals. And then the brake pedal is fixed at a 45 degree angle to accommodate people who like to brake with both feet.


Guess what ? you adapt. When I was in the military I sometimes had to drive all sorts of various equipment with all sorts of batty controls. You adapt and learn. [and I only took out one of the base commanders favorite cherry trees..]


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

tealy said:


> It would be more like if you bought a new car and had to switch the brake and gas pedals.


Mmmm, no.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I came to this thread to make a reasonable argument and munch popcorn, and I'm all out of reasonable arguments.


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## djlee (Feb 5, 2009)

Lots of riders switch their brakes from left to right. There's even a name for it. Moto.

They can still scoot their brakes further inboard if they want too.

And your grips are upside-down. Don't those fixing bolts dig into your palms?


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

tealy said:


> https://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/09/meet-brake-force-one/
> Oh man looks like the Germans are already on it.
> 
> Trialtech Carthy Rim Brake Lever - TRIALPROD
> Trials is already on it. What do they know about stopping?


First ones obviously never caught on and are a fringe product. The lever design is also predicated on the use of a booster otherwise as the product literature stated there would not be enough force applied with the ratio of the single finger lever. They're also stupid expensive and somewhat heavy.

The second are trials gear which don't need as much brake as those doing down a hill.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

tealy said:


> ... even though 87% or whatever of most non-entry-level mountain bikers brake with one finger as God intended?
> 
> Seriously. This has driven me insane for at least 10 years.
> 
> ...


Yes, most people use only their index finger. However almost everyone can dial in levers to a position that is comfortable and works well. That is why lever design has been plateaued for a while. While I am happy with my XT and SLX levers almost anything can be improved.

I don't call it moto, I call it the RIGHT way


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Guess some are destined to use coaster brakes for life? I never even thought about this much. At all. Sit on new bike, loosen the brake levers, grip bars so your hands are in a little at the end, ( trees) slide the levers in some and make sure they point down enough for a comfortable wrist angle. Some of my bikes ( gasp) have v brakes, cantis and BB7's, 2 fingers seem to work fine, never really counted. Next rant up for discussion? Why doesn't cereal come in zip lock baggies? Soooo lame.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

Point 1. OP is a ***** that can't even afford to buy what he wants, and should go to casting school to pour his own levers but can't afford that either so he just bitches.

Point 2. Dude already nailed it, this is totally a Picard thread!!


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

With my Xt's, which I do use single finger, there is enough range of movement to the lever that it works best with the levers as designed. A lever that starts closer to the bars (which I can adjust) would impact the rest of my fingers. I don't see the current design as particularly flawed, but I'm surprised at the intensity of the response!


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

tealy said:


> A product should be designed and adjusted to suit how the vast majority of consumers will use it.
> 
> The vast majority of mountain bikers 1 finger brake so the product should be designed to that. The minority who 2 finger brake should have to adjust things differently or buy a niche lever. Not the other way around.
> 
> At least for any bikes over $1000.


you don't speak for the vast majority, you speak out your butt, making MADE UP statistics...the way god intended the internet to be used apparently

keep going, tealy, so hot right now


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

tealy said:


> It's a shame people are so afraid of change.
> 
> A lot of people thought Steve Jobs was crazy for inventing the iPhone and look how that changed the world.


yeah it created legions of self-centered, narcissistic, crybaby wannabe snowflakes, too soft to fit in the hard thing we call 'real life'.

so yeah, it changed the world alright.

for me...Imma gonna stick with diggin up worms and riding me bikes.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I still haven't been able to figure out WTF the issue is here.

The last post might give me a clue though - when you compare brake levers to Iphones, it's pretty obvious that you are WAY WAAYY WAAAYYYY overthinking things.

Bend it to where you want it if you're so incredibly picky that there's no way you can live with any of the options that exist. Done. 
It's really not all that complicated


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## Nick_M (Jan 16, 2015)

probably I missed something, however, how it possible to brake with 2 fingers? you are loosing control over the grips, it is even unnatural to put 2 fingers on brakelever;


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

tealy said:


> A product should be designed and adjusted to suit how the vast majority of consumers will use it.
> 
> The vast majority of mountain bikers 1 finger brake so the product should be designed to that. The minority who 2 finger brake should have to adjust things differently or buy a niche lever. Not the other way around.
> 
> At least for any bikes over $1000.


 Vast majority? Based on you? Start a poll, bet you're wrong. 2 fingers for life( could be my new tat for the left gun?) Mr tealy, you seem SO fired up, go git it. Make a brake lever, patent, prototype, produce, I'm sure you will sell 50 K the first month. Go full on shark tank dude. The after market brake lever sales are so HUGE !


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> I still haven't been able to figure out WTF the issue is here.


Exactly. OP doesn't like the shape of Shimano levers. Everybody has preferences, whatever. But rather than just buying something that he likes and moving on with life, OP comes on mtbr and bitches to a bunch of people who have possibly been riding longer than he's been alive, who have NO PROBLEM adjusting most brake levers in a satisfactory manner.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

tealy said:


> It's a shame people are so afraid of change.
> 
> A lot of people thought Steve Jobs was crazy for inventing the iPhone and look how that changed the world.


 You heard it here first, the brake lever that changed the world. Dude can I get your autograph?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

I'll tell ya

THIS GUY has the ultimate brake levers,
maybe you can find out where he gets them

https://gfycat.com/PettyBlindEland


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

127.0.0.1 said:


> I'll tell ya
> 
> THIS GUY has the ultimate brake levers,
> maybe you can find out where he gets them
> ...


No helmet's gonna prevent your skull from popping like a watermelon under a city bus tire. yikes


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

^^ Face burn! 

Dumb topic, but prefer to read and laugh at all the good comments vs. reading political threads.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

127.0.0.1 said:


> yeah it created legions of self-centered, narcissistic, crybaby wannabe snowflakes, too soft to fit in the hard thing we call 'real life'.
> 
> so yeah, it changed the world alright.
> 
> for me...Imma gonna stick with diggin up worms and riding me bikes.


Whoa...


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

I have been riding bikes since 1977, and until this thread, have never thought about how I brake...I just get on the bike and go...and then stop...and then go. I actually had to go out and ride for a second to figure it out....

I use 2 fingers, so I guess my previous riding has all been a farce...oh well

I also sometimes use trees, rocks, roots, my arms and/or legs...my back <- and I am applying for a patent for all of that stuff, so all of y'all back off!!!!


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Inspire what? That 2 people out of 1,000 have a small issue with brake levers? Or that 98 % of the riders just get on a bike and pedal. And the other 1% takes one or 2 minutes to do some minor lever adjusting, maybe. 144 posts, "maybe" it's just you? And 75% of the riders never even think about brake levers, hmmm.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

How about this?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I use two fingers, one on each brake.


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## DCFarris (Jun 12, 2017)

tealy said:


> Couple of points to address.
> 
> - I don't think it's a good idea to bend thin aluminum levers
> - My beef isn't just Shimano levers. It's pretty much all 2 finger levers.
> ...


No, what you want to do is dictate to everyone how to use their brakes. There have been numerous posts saying the levers aren't a problem for them. YOU have the problem, and want everyone else to change their levers because you don't like them.

There have been a few examples posted of levers that might fit what you are looking for, but instead of getting and trying them, you continue to complain about how no one is embracing your ideas. Just drop it already do. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

I usually just wrap my magnum dong around the brakes and sort of reel myself to a stop, as is tradition


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Urban Legend ^


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^^ Nice. I still use the stingray stop, just stick your converse allstar high tops behind the fork crown, works well. Results may vary.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

127.0.0.1 said:


> I'll tell ya
> 
> THIS GUY has the ultimate brake levers,
> maybe you can find out where he gets them
> ...


:yikes: I hope he went and bought a lottery ticket after that.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

leeboh said:


> ^^^^ Nice. I still use the stingray stop, just stick your converse allstar high tops behind the fork crown, works well. Results may vary.


Those were the days. Remember giving your little buddy a ride on the ape hanger bars? Foot into the spokes and instant stop and face plant. Who needs levers anyway?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> ^^^^ Nice. I still use the stingray stop, just stick your converse allstar high tops behind the fork crown, works well. Results may vary.


Couldn't actually do this with Stingrays - they had fenders.

Also, as a side note, not recommended with suspension forks and/or knobby tires.
Can get your footsie squished that way.

Don't ask how I know.



Meanwhile, BMXers be like...brakes? Fer what?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

tealy said:


> It's a shame people are so afraid of change.
> 
> A lot of people thought Steve Jobs was crazy for inventing the iPhone and look how that changed the world.


Except, like most of his revolutionary inventions, he didn't invent it...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Are we just trolling at this point?? I can't believe we have made this many posts. Must be a slow work day.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Sometimes my index finger gets cold and I use my middle finger a bit.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

slapheadmofo said:


> Couldn't actually do this with Stingrays - they had fenders.


My Stingray didn't. Of course mine was a full size cruiser Schwinn transformed into a Stingray. Front fender was removed, rear fender chopped. Ape hanger bars added as well as banana seat. So far ahead of its time it kicked ass on all the real Stingrays half the size with small wheels.  I was one of the pioneers of mountain biking on that thing. Taking to the motorcycle trails and ripping it up circa 1970.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

127.0.0.1 said:


> I usually just wrap my magnum dong around the brakes and sort of reel myself to a stop, as is tradition


Magnum Dong....DEFINITELY going to be using that as a band name...probably some sort of porn-punk band...think of the Cramps meets the Plasmatics...hell yeah!!


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

THe more I read of this thread, the more confused I get with it. 

If those Shimano levers are adjusted down, they will be basically the exact same thing as any of the other brakes. 

This thread is dumber than a box of rocks.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

tealy said:


> For instance, we still haven't figured out frame geometry. Or tires.


Hu?

What's the best frame geometry and best tires then?


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

tealy said:


> Couple of points to address.
> 
> - I don't think it's a good idea to bend thin aluminum levers
> - My beef isn't just Shimano levers. It's pretty much all 2 finger levers.
> ...


the hate is coming in reaction to he many posts where
- you made subtle slams about people who use more than one finger to brake as being noobish
- you made illusions to how you were the only one who could ride fast and do all kinds of trickery while doing it and that most of us could not understand that level of riding (because we brake with 2 fingers)
- your cutting down of Harold as a "noob teacher" or whatever....

you can not come in with fists swinging and hair raised, and then play innocent. I personally don't care about all that, and as mentioned before, I did not even think about how I brake until this thread...


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

tealy said:


> I'm very excited to have shared my idea with so many people.


Legend.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

127.0.0.1 said:


> Legend.


In his own mind at least

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Travis Bickle said:


> Serious question, assuming you have index fingers why would anyone want to do this?


Racing full rigid DH bikes with cantilever brakes in the mid 80s as a teenager on skinny 2.0 tires. This wasn't fire roads courses either. I needed my strongest finger for braking those tiny Dia Compes and the other four fingers just to hold on to the bar. Old habits and all that.

ETA This was also in the days of thumb shifters that used your pointer finger to downshift, and the lever blades were a mile long.


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)




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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Dammit net. Chile relleno out the nose.


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

Who called steve jobs wacko? How did iphones change the world? lg w/android is just fine and 7x less $$. Get off the dabs.

"I don't think bending aluminum is a good idea." 

Do it wuss. Mods should pink slip this guy on principal alone.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

DethWshBkr said:


> This thread is dumber than a box of rocks.


Way to offend a box of rocks man


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

net wurker said:


>


rofl


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

thesmokingman said:


> rofl


Pick yourself back up soldier and get back in line.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

net wurker said:


>


I'm still snorting coffee out my nose and I saw this last night....


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

For those of you on a coffee break, some thread highlights...

*[WARNING -- SPOILERS BELOW...]*



tealy said:


> Sorry I wasted y'all's time...Maybe I'm just weird...Probably has something to do with me hauling ass into endos and having fun with abubacas and rear wheel stuff like that...Harold, I'm sure you've got these tricks on lock as an intermediate bike coach. Maybe you can teach me how to brake right so I'm not so foolish in the future...


:bluefrown:



David R said:


> But do you even abubuacas?


:lol:



tealy said:


> I know how to set up brake levers, mister beginner/intermediate bike instructor...


:bluefrown:



DethWshBkr said:


> Is this a Picard thread?


:lol:



tealy said:


> ...we still haven't figured out frame geometry. Or tires.






DeadGrandpa said:


> Is this just more whining about nothing from another lazy millennial generation mountain biker? Pfffttt.


:lol:



tealy said:


> ... even though 87% or whatever of most non-entry-level mountain bikers brake with one finger as God intended?...This has driven me insane for at least 10 years...Why are we still accommodating two-finger noobs even with high end levers?


:bluefrown:



Harold said:


> I coach beginner riders, idiot...This is something that I cover anytime I work with beginners.


:lol:



LarryFahn said:


> ...So after a century and a half of bicycles and a century+ of motorcycles, the lever is now a problem for 1 person and he insist that it's fixed... NOW!


:lol:



JackWare said:


> Maybe if we had all obsessed to the edge of insanity about this for a decade or more, we too would understand the noob brake lever issue.


:lol:



tuckerjt07 said:


> ...I've found that when one is asserting one's level of skill on a semi-anonymous message board to "win" an argument that one's skill is not what they think/claim it is. That's just a general rule though.


:thumbsup:



djlee said:


> Why are you complaining about your lever's ergonomics when your grips are upside-down? That would bug the sh1t out of me ...


:thumbsup:



chuckha62 said:


> Seems like a solution in search of a problem to me.


:thumbsup:



127.0.0.1 said:


> tealy, put down grandpa's prune juice and think about things for a bit. really.


:lol:



mack_turtle said:


> I came to this thread to make a reasonable argument and munch popcorn, and I'm all out of reasonable arguments.


:lol:



slapheadmofo said:


> I still haven't been able to figure out WTF the issue is here...


:lol:



DethWshBkr said:


> THe more I read of this thread, the more confused I get with it...This thread is dumber than a box of rocks.


:lol:



bamwa said:


> ...Mods should pink slip this guy on principal alone.


:lol:

All that said, THANKS OP. That made for a AWESOME morning read. I mean that.

Drama, confrontation, hilarity, some history, a little bit of education... The only thing it was really missing is a solid conspiracy theory or two.


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

^ Nice recap. Do you work for cliff notes? You should.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mtnbkrmike said:


> For those of you on a coffee break, some thread highlights...
> 
> *[WARNING -- SPOILERS BELOW...]*
> 
> ...


The OP wants to introduce trigger shaped brake levers in an attempt to get all mountain bikers comfortable with the feel of pulling a trigger. That's all I can say at this time.


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## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

mtnbkrmike said:


> For those of you on a coffee break, some thread highlights...
> 
> *[WARNING -- SPOILERS BELOW...]*
> 
> Wow - good job, but you might get PM'd a list of threads that we need summaries for. :lol::lol:


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

tealy said:


> - I'm not interested in making my own levers. I'm a rider not an entrepreneur. I want to inspire someone more skilled than I to do that.


I read this as "The maximum effort I will put into a solution that works for me is complaining on the internet."

So it must not really be that important to you.


----------

