# 2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Yes?

New Shimano XTR 12-speed: What you need to know - Mtbr.com

New Shimano XTR brakes: What you need to know - Mtbr.com

New Shimano XTR hubs, pedals, and more - Mtbr.com

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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

Word! Was hoping it would fit standard freehub bodies, but SRAM started their own system to accommodate their 12 speed system...so that shouldn't be much of a whining point. The fact that overall as a group, it will be lighter and less expensive makes me happy...but I'm definitely waiting until 2019 for the XT version.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

If it is as good as it looks, is should be all around significantly better than Eagle. And Shimano is one of those manufacturers whose products generally live up to their appearances. They had enough time to get it right, and they really needed to deliver.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Cant wait to fold one of those cassettes into a taco. I've already bent 10 and 11 speed XT, and I cant see this being any stronger. Also, claiming it's 10% wider range is a bit misleading. Its only 2% wider as compared to eagle. And introducing new standards for both freehubs and presumably direct mount chainrings, uggh. 

I know SRAM stuff certainly isnt perfect. Some of it is so heavy its downright piggish. But I'm pretty underwhelmed by this new shimano stuff. But who knows, maybe they made those cassettes out of pure unobtanium than wont fold faster than superman on laundry day.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Sounds all good till I got to the part about the new hub standard. yuck. Not going to say it is better or worse then XD, but it now means 3 standards floating around. Not good.


Is there any listing of the ratios on the 11spd 10-45 and 12spd 10-45 and 10-51 cassettes?

The 11-46 was always a good range, but I hated the jump to the 46t. Seems like too big of a gap. I wonder what these new ones are. Visually they look more uniform.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

The group looks sick. But it feel too little too late - especially since they don't have an answer for GX Eagle with XT and/or SLX groupo. Too much leap of faith for both OEMs and consumers to swap out everything for yet another standard.

The the top end Treks and S-Works will adopt XTR to differentiate, but I see less incentive for smaller OEMs as I doubt the sell much XX1 builds today anyway.

SRAM will likely answer with a "yawn" closer space cassette for the SoulCycle spinners out there. But otherwise, I don't think they're much concerned about this.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

GuitsBoy said:


> Cant wait to fold one of those cassettes into a taco. I've already bent 10 and 11 speed XT, and I cant see this being any stronger. Also, claiming it's 10% wider range is a bit misleading. Its only 2% wider as compared to eagle. And introducing new standards for both freehubs and presumably direct mount chainrings, uggh.
> 
> I know SRAM stuff certainly isnt perfect. Some of it is so heavy its downright piggish. But I'm pretty underwhelmed by this new shimano stuff. But who knows, maybe they made those cassettes out of pure unobtanium than wont fold faster than superman on laundry day.


Missing the point though... More range, less weight, less $$$. Only a SRAM fanboi would think it's a bad idea unless they're invested in something besides DT to swap the freehub. On a new complete build... Why not get more for less assuming the performance is on par or even better than SRAM?

Granted, I'd rather see them stick with the normal Shimano freehub and lose the 10t. Just run a new 11-51 on the normal freehub spline... But whatever. I think it will be fine, and you know Hope Et Al will make a freehub for them.

They've already eluded to the XT release.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

It looks great and undoubtedly will work very well.

The dealbreaker for me is the new hub, and the fact that apparently it'll only be licensed to DT Swiss, so you'll need DT or Shimano hubs. This seems like a real error on Shimano's part; if you're introducing a new standard shouldn't' you try to get it in as many hands as possible? Make it an open design so all hub makers can offer conversion freehubs? No way I'm tossing or rebuilding my really nice I9-hubbed wheels for this.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

I, for one, am looking forward to 12spd being semi-affordable (XT). SRAM can go pound sand with their prices.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

I'm quite happy with 11sp to be quite honest.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

I run DT Swiss hubs, but I'm going to keep using X01 Eagle cassettes with this new XTR 12 shifter and soon-to-follow XT rear derailleur. All my 11sp bikes have SRAM X01 10-42 cassettes with XTR triggers and SLX derailleurs (after years of XTR derailleurs....no difference other than 45 grams). I like Eagle, but my XTR 11 speed with its multi-shift lever is hands-down the favorite.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

And since I went 11-42 and 28t offset granny position on my 180mm XT crankset...I don't need anymore gears.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Love that new hub. 47 pts engagement, quiet, lighter, and the non series is the same thing but $100 less. Ditching the need for titanium will drive down the cost and the new freehub will be more durable.


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## MozFat (Dec 16, 2016)

Another article
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/shimano-xtr-m9100/


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## 410sprint (Oct 19, 2012)

Huh?!

No Super Boost hubs? Pivot is going all in on 157mm and now Shimano rolls out their flagship group without it?


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

another ispec standard is just what we need


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Who thought it was a good idea to make the top 3 cassette cogs alloy! TBH The shifter and mech mated to a eagle cassette might be the best setup.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

chelboed said:


> Missing the point though... More range, less weight, less $$$. Only a SRAM fanboi would think it's a bad idea unless they're invested in something besides DT to swap the freehub. On a new complete build... Why not get more for less assuming the performance is on par or even better than SRAM?
> 
> Granted, I'd rather see them stick with the normal Shimano freehub and lose the 10t. Just run a new 11-51 on the normal freehub spline... But whatever. I think it will be fine, and you know Hope Et Al will make a freehub for them.
> 
> They've already eluded to the XT release.


I feel that youve missed my point. I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting). A 51t cog made of alloy, a such a light weight is a prime contender to get bent almost immediately. That is my concern. What good is performance is the parts are not durable. The range is negligible in difference (Its a 2% not 10% difference). Price remains to be seen.

So am I to assume that ANYONE who does not run Shimano and DT Swiss is a SRAM fanboi now? Fanboy or not, their cassettes have proven far more durable for me.

And doing away with the new freehub and keeping this 11-50 does away with the core reason they developed this in the first place. They needed a new freehub to be competitive IMO.

I'm sure other brands will adopt the new standard, but seeing how even the DT240s cant be converted, many other brands may find their hub shells incompatible.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

GuitsBoy said:


> (...) but seeing how even the DT240s cant be converted, many other brands may find their hub shells incompatible.


Where did you get that information?
This doesn't only mean a new free hub body if you want to change systems, this would also mean a new hub.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

About mid way through the MTBR article.



> Murdick also pointed out that DT makes some hubs (both in house and for others) such as the top-of-the-line 240s where freehub body modification is not possible, and thus won't work with Micro-Spline.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

This doesn't mean we can't replace the freehub body with the new Hiperglyde +. My interpretation is that the current ones can't be adapted, in the same sense we can't adapt a Hiperglyde body to a XD body, but we can replace it.
But I can be wrong .


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

I think thats exactly what that means. The new freehub wont fit the existing hub shells. Hyperglide+ is the chain mesh and shift ramp technology, its not the freehub spline. The freehub spline is what hey call micro-spline.

Here's an expanded quote from the article:



> DT Swiss also makes wheels for lots of other people (remember the Roval example) and Murdick believes that in most instances, those hubs will be okay, too. "But there is not a guarantee that it will be upgradable to the new freehub body," he conceded. "The issue is that the hub shell could touch if it hangs out over the free body, because [with the new Micro-Spline system] we do take up just a little bit more space. So yes, there could be a case where a wheel [with DT Swiss made hubs] is not upgradeable. But I think those will be pretty rare." Let's hope so&#8230;
> 
> Murdick also pointed out that DT makes some hubs (both in house and for others) such as the top-of-the-line 240s where freehub body modification is not possible, and thus won't work with Micro-Spline. And no, you cannot upgrade existing Shimano hubs.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

That seems a really bad excuse to sell new hubs. I have a DT 240s and a DT 350 and there's is no way that the hub shell protrude from the flange more than the new XTR, you can easily compare pictures from both hubs and see that this is true.
I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just calling BS on them.
Thanks for correcting me regarding the Hyperglide, I always thought the term also applied to the freehub, we learn something every day


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

GuitsBoy said:


> I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting).


Is that common? I've been through lots of Shimano 10 speed cassettes with zero problems and haven't seen or heard of any issues here or elsewhere. No experience with their 11-speed yet.

Conversely I've seen a ton of broken and folded cogs on sram wide range cassettes.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Aglo said:


> Thanks for correcting me regarding the Hyperglide, I always thought the term also applied to the freehub, we learn something every day


In the past, hyperglide did describe the freehub splines, however in this case, i think they went with microspline to make sure there would be no confusion between hyperglide and hyperglide+.



J.B. Weld said:


> Is that common? I've been through lots of Shimano 10 speed cassettes with zero problems and haven't seen or heard of any issues here or elsewhere. No experience with their 11-speed yet.
> 
> Conversely I've seen a ton of broken and folded cogs on sram wide range cassettes.


The SRAM cassettes do indeed have some issues with chipped teeth, though I think that may be due to powershifting. I havent seen many issues with folding compared to all the chipped teeth out there. Im lucky to have never run into that. I have only ever slightly bent an XG-1150 cassette, never a full taco. Shimano cassettes have fully folded on me, but then again so have expensive e-13, cheap sunrace, and practically every other cassette out there. Its a function of extreme chainlines, clydeness, fatb/plus bike traction, and furious mashing. Something's bound to break under the abuse, and on occasion its the cassette's big cog folding over.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

New i-spec mount (for the 4th time!), new hub/cassette standard that isn't XD, brakes don't appear to have solved the eventual failure mode that all shimano brakes suffer from and they still won't sell you seal kits. This makes the choice easy for me. Pedals and chains is all I'll buy from them anymore.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Jayem said:


> New i-spec mount (for the 4th time!), new hub/cassette standard that isn't XD, brakes don't appear to have solved the eventual failure mode that all shimano brakes suffer from and they still won't sell you seal kits. This makes the choice easy for me. Pedals and chains is all I'll buy from them anymore.


The I-Spec thing is getting a bit crazy, but there seems to be a legit reason behind why they changed it, related to stiffening the lever mounting, so as long as there is a real improvement I am OK with it. The new freehub looks to be clearly superior to XD, and a requirement for how Shimano has always made their cassettes. Now that they are weight competitive with SRAM, it makes even more sense. I guess I have been lucky with brakes because I can't seem to kill Shimano wet brakes, at any level or vintage. It's funny, the main SRAM thing I did use was chains, it looks like there is a pretty good chance I will be going back to Shimano.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Velodonata said:


> The I-Spec thing is getting a bit crazy, but there seems to be a legit reason behind why they changed it, related to stiffening the lever mounting, so as long as there is a real improvement I am OK with it. The new freehub looks to be clearly superior to XD, and a requirement for how Shimano has always made their cassettes. Now that they are weight competitive with SRAM, it makes even more sense. I guess I have been lucky with brakes because I can't seem to kill Shimano wet brakes, at any level or vintage. It's funny, the main SRAM thing I did use was chains, it looks like there is a pretty good chance I will be going back to Shimano.


The new free hub is clearly superior to XD? Please explain.

My shimano brakes usually blow the seals after a couple years, but as little as one.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Aglo said:


> Where did you get that information?
> This doesn't only mean a new free hub body if you want to change systems, this would also mean a new hub.


Nope. It looks like free hubs will be available as they are now for HD and the venerable Shimano standard https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/26/dt...icro-spline-hubs-for-new-xtr/#comment-3227644









Personally I think this new group is fantastic, 1x done right especially with the great additional options of 1045 and 1045 11 speed (acknowledging that 11 is enough when paired with a reduced range cassette even in competition). Plus a serious spline interface (my HD splines are dented after 6 months of use), two or four piston caliper for enduro, convertible shifter 12 to 11, and ... :drumroll:

SILENT HUBS! Finally! no more machine gun ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta when coasting! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

GuitsBoy said:


> ...I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting). A 51t cog made of alloy, a such a light weight is a prime contender to get bent almost immediately. That is my concern. What good is performance is the parts are not durable. The range is negligible in difference (Its a 2% not 10% difference). Price remains to be seen.
> 
> So am I to assume that ANYONE who does not run Shimano and DT Swiss is a SRAM fanboi now? Fanboy or not, their cassettes have proven far more durable for me...


You must be a gorilla, haha. I've never folded any cogs in few decades of riding. Never seen any gorilla quads on the YDF or Works Cup food a cig either. You're missing your can't if you're saying your monsterly string enough to fold cogs with your bodacious man quads regularly enough to steer clear of certain to end equipment designed to withstand such things.

Regarding you being a SRAM fanboi...I call em as I see em. It's not a sin to be A SRAM fanboi. I'm an XT fanboi. They've always produced what I've needed. I like the group and have never give a reason not to. The only difference is you're implying that you're in denial about it.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Jayem said:


> The new free hub is clearly superior to XD? Please explain.
> 
> My shimano brakes usually blow the seals after a couple years, but as little as one.


XD requires an oddball cassette design because the locating features and threads are way down towards the base. It can be difficult to torque correctly and it leaves a bearing sticking half out the end. So if you are SRAM with a unique way of milling uber-expensive cassettes and you want to make sure Shimano can't use your "open" design without jumping through hoops, it's great. But it was never going to work for Shimano, and the new Shimano design is more adaptable to various methods of manufacturing a cassette and requires a very basic lockring similar to what everybody but SRAM has been using for decades.

You probably run your brakes harder than me, I have sets of very old Shimano brakes that still work but I just upgraded to newer ones anyway. I have tossed Avid/SRAM brakes in the trash out of annoyance but the only non-functional Shimano caliper I have was bought and taken apart to be used as a buck for brake mount mods. I know SRAM has upped their game but I have had no reason to try them.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Aglo said:


> This doesn't mean we can't replace the freehub body with the new Hiperglyde +. My interpretation is that the current ones can't be adapted, in the same sense we can't adapt a Hiperglyde body to a XD body, but we can replace it.
> But I can be wrong .


It loos like you are right!


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Davide said:


> It looks like free hubs will be available as they are now for HD and the venerable Shimano standard


Yes, and when pictures of the DT version freehub by itself are already popping up, that's a good sign for upgrades to existing hubs.

It sounds like upgrade compatibility will be on a case by case basis, since there are minor dimensional differences between the new and old.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

chelboed said:


> You must be a gorilla, haha. I've never folded any cogs in few decades of riding. Never seen any gorilla quads on the YDF or Works Cup food a cig either. You're missing your can't if you're saying your monsterly string enough to fold cogs with your bodacious man quads regularly enough to steer clear of certain to end equipment designed to withstand such things.
> 
> Regarding you being a SRAM fanboi...I call em as I see em. It's not a sin to be A SRAM fanboi. I'm an XT fanboi. They've always produced what I've needed. I like the group and have never give a reason not to. The only difference is you're implying that you're in denial about it.


Have all the fun you want, but the truth is, I'm a bit of a gymrat with a combined 1350 in the "big three". I break ****. I also ride trails with short punchy climbs, so I dont have to put out watts over long periods of time, which means I can burn myself out on a single climb. Couple that to fatbike and plus bike traction, and yes, I blow out freehubs, pull chains apart, and on occasion, fold a big cog over. It happens. And I'm sure I'm far from the only one that does this. The reason you dont see guys much faster and much stronger than me fold them over is because they have developed proper technique, and are not just mashing away with careless abandon. Doesn't mean I dont do what Im saying happens.

I've given shimano drivetrain plenty of shots, and they always shift great. But with the advent of 36T and bigger cogs, the sram stuff is more durable for me. I still have shimano brakes on at least six bikes, so I'm not just a Shimano hater. Just sticking with what works for me.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

GuitsBoy said:


> I feel that youve missed my point. I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting). A 51t cog made of alloy, a such a light weight is a prime contender to get bent almost immediately. That is my concern.


For the 160lb racers this group is meant for....this is not their concern.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Schulze said:


> For the 160lb racers this group is meant for....this is not their concern.


Why not? They're producing a lot of torque too.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Do you see anyone else complaining of "folding" a cassette cog? I've never even heard of that.

We have one guy on the edge of the bell curve complaining. When you live on the edge....


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Velodonata said:


> The I-Spec thing is getting a bit crazy, but there seems to be a legit reason behind why they changed it, related to stiffening the lever mounting, so as long as there is a real improvement I am OK with it. The new freehub looks to be clearly superior to XD, and a requirement for how Shimano has always made their cassettes. Now that they are weight competitive with SRAM, it makes even more sense. I guess I have been lucky with brakes because I can't seem to kill Shimano wet brakes, at any level or vintage. It's funny, the main SRAM thing I did use was chains, it looks like there is a pretty good chance I will be going back to Shimano.


XD driver seems to me to be better in every single way, care to tell me why its not? Also from I spec-A to I-spec 2 the shifter mounting became more flexy and the the brake mounting did as well as you were putting less lever on the bar.

Also a XX1 cassette is still lighter despite been out on the market for 2 years!

TBH it all seems like a farmer shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Schulze said:


> Do you see anyone else complaining of "folding" a cassette cog? I've never even heard of that.


I'm not complaining, since Ive obviously never used one. Im just voicing my concerns that considering the weight and my previous track record with shimano XT cassettes, I would be worried about bending cogs. And honestly, there been plenty of reports of guys much smaller than I that have bent all different brands of cassettes, sram included. I'm not a unique and special butterfly.

Until we actually get some miles on these new clusters, and see how they actually ride, and how strong they are, it's all just a guessing game anyway.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Rick Draper said:


> XD driver seems to me to be better in every single way, care to tell me why its not? Also from I spec-A to I-spec 2 the shifter mounting became more flexy and the the brake mounting did as well as you were putting less lever on the bar.
> 
> Also a XX1 cassette is still lighter despite been out on the market for 2 years!
> 
> TBH it all seems like a farmer shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.


I already answered this earlier in this thread.

http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cranks/2018-shimano-xtr-12-speed-1078844.html#post13679299

Please explain why you think XD is better in "every single way".

Cassette weights are not getting much lower without the price going from high to ridiculous, they both ended up at the same place taking their own paths. I like the SRAM cassettes just fine, even with XD, but with the better selections, apparently but yet to be proven better shifting, and the new freehub, I will probably be running Shimano cassettes in the future.

As to the I-spec thing, as I have said, the new version was needed because they wanted to make a beneficial change to their brake lever mounting. I have the M9000 Race brake levers on one of my bikes, and there is noticeable flex if you look at them as you squeeze them hard. I can't say I notice it when riding, but the new design will eliminate this flex, and the new I-spec also is more adjustable than the previous versions. Continuous improvements is the standard and desirable way of doing things, I really don't care about standards and long as there is improvement to be had for changing them.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Schulze said:


> For the 160lb racers this group is meant for....this is not their concern.


There has never really been any rider weight limit on XTR, since it was first introduced back in 1985.

This is a group that will be on the top of the line $7,000-10000 range bikes. People will use the cross country XTR to race with it, they will use the enduro XTR to race with it, but most people will buy XTR for its performance and light weight and never see a starting line ...


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

noapathy said:


> I, for one, am looking forward to 12spd being semi-affordable (XT). SRAM can go pound sand with their prices.


Agree!


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

westin said:


> I run DT Swiss hubs, but I'm going to keep using X01 Eagle cassettes with this new XTR 12 shifter and soon-to-follow XT rear derailleur. All my 11sp bikes have SRAM X01 10-42 cassettes with XTR triggers and SLX derailleurs (after years of XTR derailleurs....no difference other than 45 grams). I like Eagle, but my XTR 11 speed with its multi-shift lever is hands-down the favorite.


Same plan, but......is anybody sure that the cog spacing is identical between Shimano and SRAM. It always has been, but who knows? I've seen no direct mention of this.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Velodonata said:


> XD requires an oddball cassette design because the locating features and threads are way down towards the base. It can be difficult to torque correctly and it leaves a bearing sticking half out the end. So if you are SRAM with a unique way of milling uber-expensive cassettes and you want to make sure Shimano can't use your "open" design without jumping through hoops, it's great. But it was never going to work for Shimano, and the new Shimano design is more adaptable to various methods of manufacturing a cassette and requires a very basic lockring similar to what everybody but SRAM has been using for decades.
> 
> You probably run your brakes harder than me, I have sets of very old Shimano brakes that still work but I just upgraded to newer ones anyway. I have tossed Avid/SRAM brakes in the trash out of annoyance but the only non-functional Shimano caliper I have was bought and taken apart to be used as a buck for brake mount mods. I know SRAM has upped their game but I have had no reason to try them.


Well of course the threads and splines are way towards the base, that's because it's a superior design. It doesn't try to apply torque over a long lever arm like shimano (which results in the scoring problem). To boot, it's lighter. Yes, SRAM figured out how to CNC lightweight cassettes out of steel, but we were taking about the XD driver specifically. It's better, that's all there is too it. It's not an oddball driver/ cassette design anymore when you can buy several different manufacturers cassettes, like you can now. Wake up and smell the coffee. XD was a huge improvement over the traditional cassette interface.

Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. I've warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Davide said:


> There has never been any rider weight limit on XTR, since it was first introduced back in 1985.
> 
> This is a group that will be on the top of the line $7,000-10000 range bikes. People will use the cross country XTR to race with it, they will use the enduro XTR to race with it, but most people will buy XTR for its performance and light weight and never see a starting line ...


And if they engineered it for the top .1% of riders it wouldn't be light enough for anyone to buy.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Jayem said:


> Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. I've warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.


Huge generalization based on your experience. Based on my experience Shimano brakes are flawless. Still have a pair of 4 Pot XTs from 2000 that have never been bled and still work as well as the day I put them on.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Jayem said:


> Well of course the threads and splines are way towards the base, that's because it's a superior design. It doesn't try to apply torque over a long lever arm like shimano (which results in the scoring problem). To boot, it's lighter. Yes, SRAM figured out how to CNC lightweight cassettes out of steel, but we were taking about the XD driver specifically. It's better, that's all there is too it. It's not an oddball driver/ cassette design anymore when you can buy several different manufacturers cassettes, like you can now. Wake up and smell the coffee. XD was a huge improvement over the traditional cassette interface.
> 
> Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. I've warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.


I hate to break this to you, but all the non-Sram XD cassettes on the market are compromised designs due to the XD driver. And it is not XD that makes SRAM cassettes good. I guarantee you that if there had been an open choice between XD or Micro-Spline, there would be zero takers for XD. The e*thirteen XD cassette is a freakshow that took multiple versions to get right, and Garbaruk has changed theirs to use a second lockring. The external locking threads requiring some sort of deep locking sleeve or other gimmick is far from the elegant simplicity of Shimano's freehubs. I don't know where you are trying to go with your talk of torque and lever arms, it's not going to score any points for XD either. Even the SRAM XD cassettes mount finicky compared to any Shimano cassette, nobody ever wondered if their XTR cassette was torqued correctly or ruined their cassette with a damaged sleeve. XD was OK when there was no other choice, but it's got nothing to offer over Micro-Spline going forward. I just hope Shimano doesn't keep it locked down.

I don't know what to say about your brake problems, I'll say it again, I have a workshop full of Shimano brakes of various vintages and zero failures. I have put them on several friends bikes over the years with no complaints, either.


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## Bay1 (Jan 19, 2014)

Wouldn’t it be cool if the new XT comes out with an 12 speed 11-51 cassette, that fits on the old hubs! so those who wish to upgrade there old drivetrains can...
And hopefully Shimano releases a NEW 11 speed Hyperglide cassette 11-45, for our existing Shimano 11 speed drivetrains. 

Personally I perfer Shimano 
I’ve never had much luck with SRAM, but obviously many do tho. Both the X01 12x and 11x systems have given me trouble, but the cheeper XTR 1x11 has been perfect, (except for when running it with the X01 cassette it wouldn’t shift as sweet. But it was very good)

This xtr is pretty much just for new build top of the line bikes ah.

The bike industry is so waistfull.
If the demand for a 10 tooth cog was so great, Surely the engineers at Shimano could have made a cheep light cassette for the XD free hub. 

My DT 240s are redundant anyhow as they are only 135. And bike frames don’t use that standard anymore 🤔


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Bay1 said:


> Wouldn't it be cool if the new XT comes out with an 12 speed 11-51 cassette, that fits on the old hubs! so those who wish to upgrade there old drivetrains can..


Ha! I just posted this thought on another forum. If XT requires Shimano or DT hubs, it's doomed, IMO, so 11-51 FTW!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Velodonata said:


> I hate to break this to you, but all the non-Sram XD cassettes on the market are compromised designs due to the XD driver. And it is not XD that makes SRAM cassettes good. I guarantee you that if there had been an open choice between XD or Micro-Spline, there would be zero takers for XD. The e*thirteen XD cassette is a freakshow that took multiple versions to get right, and Garbaruk has changed theirs to use a second lockring. The external locking threads requiring some sort of deep locking sleeve or other gimmick is far from the elegant simplicity of Shimano's freehubs. I don't know where you are trying to go with your talk of torque and lever arms, it's not going to score any points for XD either. Even the SRAM XD cassettes mount finicky compared to any Shimano cassette, nobody ever wondered if their XTR cassette was torqued correctly or ruined their cassette with a damaged sleeve. XD was OK when there was no other choice, but it's got nothing to offer over Micro-Spline going forward. I just hope Shimano doesn't keep it locked down.
> 
> I don't know what to say about your brake problems, I'll say it again, I have a workshop full of Shimano brakes of various vintages and zero failures. I have put them on several friends bikes over the years with no complaints, either.


Ok, so to summarize your statement:

You don't like E13 cassettes.

You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).

You have trouble installing parts.

All you want to know about shimano brakes can be found here:

Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion | Ridemonkey Forums


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TwoTone said:


> Huge generalization based on your experience. Based on my experience Shimano brakes are flawless. Still have a pair of 4 Pot XTs from 2000 that have never been bled and still work as well as the day I put them on.


The 4-pots were a totally different brake and arguably better than the more recent stuff that is doomed to failure.

I spoke with the shimano rep about this at my last race, he basically agreed with me about the terminal failure and stated that due to how they are mass-produced, they aren't interested in putting out any seal kits. That means you can't do a "refresh" after a season or two, to prevent an untimely failure. That is downright dangerous.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

kosmo said:


> Same plan, but......is anybody sure that the cog spacing is identical between Shimano and SRAM. It always has been, but who knows? I've seen no direct mention of this.


SRAM has 3,65mm spacing and new XTR uses 3,5mm spacing so no compatibility.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

TurboKoo said:


> SRAM has 3,65mm spacing and new XTR uses 3,5mm spacing so no compatibility.


I find this suspect.

We already know that the 10-45 11 speed version is cross compatible with 12 speed and is, apparently, compatible with current 11 speed stuff. The 11 and 12 speed SRAM gear is cross compatible as well. It is quite certain that the 12 speed should be cross compatible between both brands.

And even if formally it isn't, the spacing is so goddamn close, that it is going to work none-theless.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Jayem said:


> Ok, so to summarize your statement:
> 
> You don't like E13 cassettes.
> 
> You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).


He is right tho, on the XD driver. Its only strength is being first to market, other then that the "micro-spline" is a better design if we desire to get the sub-11 top cog.

How much of a failure XD really is is best exemplified by the fact, that it is married to the monolithic cassette design of the XX1 and even SRAM failed to trickle it down to the bottomest equipment tiers. This new 'microspline' can be easily adopted even to a 'stack-of-stamped-cogs' cassettes that abound low end groups.


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

uzurpator said:


> The 11 and 12 speed SRAM gear is cross compatible as well.


Don't think so. Maybe it will work, but the spacing is not the same. https://sram.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/sections/115000545854-SRAM-Eagle-


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Jayem said:


> Ok, so to summarize your statement:
> 
> You don't like E13 cassettes.
> 
> ...


Nice try guy. If you don't have a rebuttal with any real points to make, just say so or let it go.

I don't care about e*thirteen cassettes other than as a curious observer, I don't use them and have yet had no desire to, I think it is fine that they are offering some alternative cassettes for people that do need them. But it's pretty obvious that making XD work has been a bit of a trial for them, and it is all because of the fundamental weakness of the XD design. I am a Garbaruk customer and they make their cassettes in a similar fashion to SRAM, machined from a steel billet. They make versions for both Shimano and XD freehubs. The Shimano ones are cheaper and lighter for otherwise very similar 11 speed cassettes, and much simpler to install. All because of the quirks of XD. SRAM's own cassettes could be made simpler, cheaper and lighter for Micro-Spline, maybe they should talk to Shimano about that?

Just because you can't properly describe technical issues doesn't mean I can't understand them. Traditional cassette bodies are a decades old technology and no Shimano freehub body has ever suffered notching from a cog. If aftermarket hubs use aluminum to save weight and it doesn't withstand the individual cassette cogs, that isn't Shimano's fault. I don't choose hubs with vulnerable bodies, but the ones I have worked on are still serviceable, it is just a little more work to get the cassette off and you have to dress the notches a bit. It's a calculated compromise for weight savings, like many things on a bike. The new design is an evolution of the old and Shimano chose to update the splines to a design that works better using aluminum. That is a good thing, it's how the process is supposed to work.

No worries, I don't have any trouble installing these parts. But I see and have heard many complaints about XD cassette installs. There are plenty in the forums. They are finicky to install and plenty of amatuer home mechanics and even some bike shop guys have had issues with XD. The cost for these mistakes can be high indeed. XD won't get a pass any more for being the only game in town.

Thanks for the link, I'm good. I'll be sure to find somebody that doesn't have so much trouble with them if I need help with any of my Shimano brakes that never seem to give me any trouble. Knock on wood!


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Is the 11 speed cassette just 12 speed cassette with largest cog removed to save weight? And not compatible with old 11 speed system?

Anyway it was impressive work from Shimano - I think they really covered all needs of racers, even the integrated dropper lever.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Velodonata said:


> If it is as good as it looks, is should be all around significantly better than Eagle. And Shimano is one of those manufacturers whose products generally live up to their appearances. They had enough time to get it right, and they really needed to deliver.


One thing I did not notice at first is the spacing of the cassette. Sram 1050 just added a 50 cog to the original 1042, obtaining a rather odd spacing. Starting from 28 it gets 4-4-6-8 teeth increments:

10 12 14 16 18 21 24 *28 32 36 42 50*

compare with Shimano that at the top has smooth 5-6-6-6 increments:

10 12 14 16 18 21 24 *28 33 39 45 51*

The 1045 is even smoother at 4-4-4-5

10 12 14 16 18 21 24 *28 32 36 40 45*


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## Whambat (Jul 30, 2006)

I'm in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee. It's about Shimano just not wanting to use anything from Sram. It would be better if they just said we came out with micro spline because we think it is better these reasons. If Shimano wants this group to do well, they need to offer up micro spline to everyone. It just feels like Shimano is going back to their old dick moves to third party companies from back in the 90's.

Since my GX Eagle generally works better than my XT 1x11 between my two bikes, and it costs less on OEM bikes, I just can't see even a XT level one bringing me back to the Shimano fold. The only downside is the extra cost of the cassette, but after having Shimano cassettes dig into and trash AL hub bodies for years, I'm Ok with an extra minimal cost. Besides, the move to one piece cassettes reduces the inevitable creaking I'd get from Shimano multi piece cassettes.

That said there is a lot of awesomeness to this group. The new brakes, the pedals, the crank, the dropper remote, the new derailleurs, all look great. Some of it may end up on my bike someday, just not the shifting bits unless it plays well with any XD cassettes.

I think this article has some of the best fact checking:
https://nsmb.com/articles/2019-shimano-xtr-9100-10-51-12spd-here/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Whambat said:


> I'm in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee.


This is only true for hub manufacturers. It encourages hub makers to offer xD drivers so that SRAM can sell more groupsets. They still hold their patent on the cassette side, and charge pretty steep licensing fees for anyone who wants to produce a cassette that interfaces with XD. Thats where they get you. So from Shimano's point of view, while they could freely produce hubs with an XD driver, they would still have to pay a license fee to produce cassettes. They were better off designing their own freehub from a financial stance.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Whambat said:


> I'm in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee. It's about Shimano just not wanting to use anything from Sram. It would be better if they just said we came out with micro spline because we think it is better these reasons. If Shimano wants this group to do well, they need to offer up micro spline to everyone. It just feels like Shimano is going back to their old dick moves to third party companies from back in the 90's.
> 
> Since my GX Eagle generally works better than my XT 1x11 between my two bikes, and it costs less on OEM bikes, I just can't see even a XT level one bringing me back to the Shimano fold. The only downside is the extra cost of the cassette, but after having Shimano cassettes dig into and trash AL hub bodies for years, I'm Ok with an extra minimal cost. Besides, the move to one piece cassettes reduces the inevitable creaking I'd get from Shimano multi piece cassettes.
> 
> ...


How did they lie? They said that XD is not compatible with the way they build cassettes, which is true.


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## Whambat (Jul 30, 2006)

TwoTone said:


> How did they lie? They said that XD is not compatible with the way they build cassettes, which is true.


Here's from the NSMB article and their fact checking:

When the curtain was drawn back there were no gasps. Rumours of a 10-51 cassette were accurate and, as expected a brand new driver body makes way for a 10t smallest cog. Micro Spline is Shimano's solution to the 10t problem and we were told there were other obstacles preventing adoption of the XD solution. Shimano doesn't produce a one piece cassette* and I was told it was unlikely Shimano would get permission to use SRAM's intellectual property.** SRAM's literature, quoted below, tells a different story. Redesigning the cassette would have been required, but that it seems to me that would be only slightly more than trivial for a company with Shimano's manufacturing and engineering superiority. But perhaps there are intellectual property hurdles as well.

*the cassette can have more than one piece using an XD driver, as evidenced by e*thirteen's solution, but once installed the pieces must attach and form a single unit because most of the length of an XD driver body is not splined.

**"The XD compatible driver body design is an open standard available to any hub manufacturer interested in producing a driver body compatible with the XX1 10-42 11-speed cassette (or current Eagle cassettes - Ed.). This open standard allows hub manufacturer to design an XD compatible driver body that works with their own ratchet design." From SRAM literature.

My own thoughts: would the phrase ambiguity with the facts be more amicable?

I honestly hope that either they offer an open license to any hub manufacturer for the new body soon or offer a 11-51 cassette that works with HG bodies. I really think they need to do one or the other, or both, to have a real chance for this to take back market share. I want them to succeed, really. Competition benefits us all. I don't want Shimano to just end up being that company that has really good brakes and pedals on otherwise Sram spec'd bikes as they started to become.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Whambat said:


> Here's from the NSMB article and their fact checking:
> 
> When the curtain was drawn back there were no gasps. Rumours of a 10-51 cassette were accurate and, as expected a brand new driver body makes way for a 10t smallest cog. Micro Spline is Shimano's solution to the 10t problem and we were told there were other obstacles preventing adoption of the XD solution. Shimano doesn't produce a one piece cassette* and I was told it was unlikely Shimano would get permission to use SRAM's intellectual property.** SRAM's literature, quoted below, tells a different story. Redesigning the cassette would have been required, but that it seems to me that would be only slightly more than trivial for a company with Shimano's manufacturing and engineering superiority. But perhaps there are intellectual property hurdles as well.
> 
> ...


I so how would the E-13 system work for a 3 piece unit?


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

The hyperglide type freehub is, what, 25 years old? The ratcheting mech stuffed inside the freehub is even older. 

Shimano fixed all the problems with both of them. I'm glad they improved on the XD design. XT level cassettes will continue to be $50. 

You'll still be able to buy cassettes for your older hyperglide hubs for the next 20 years. If shimano stops making them, someone else will step up. 

There are no downsides.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Schulze said:


> The hyperglide type freehub is, what, 25 years old? The ratcheting mech stuffed inside the freehub is even older.
> 
> Shimano fixed all the problems with both of them. I'm glad they improved on the XD design.* XT level cassettes will continue to be $50. *
> 
> ...


It's not 2003 anymore. I highly doubt this will be the case. I'm not saying they'll be $300, but $50 was halo-time and you ordered a few at the same time because that didn't come around very often. Now with inflation? You are dreaming.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Jayem said:


> It's not 2003 anymore. I highly doubt this will be the case. I'm not saying they'll be $300, but $50 was halo-time and you ordered a few at the same time because that didn't come around very often. Now with inflation? You are dreaming.


You're splitting hairs here....

XT cassettes retail for less than $100, and can easily be found for a third of the price of a comparable SRAM X1 cassette.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Whambat said:


> Here's from the NSMB article and their fact checking:
> 
> When the curtain was drawn back there were no gasps. Rumours of a 10-51 cassette were accurate and, as expected a brand new driver body makes way for a 10t smallest cog. Micro Spline is Shimano's solution to the 10t problem and we were told there were other obstacles preventing adoption of the XD solution. Shimano doesn't produce a one piece cassette* and I was told it was unlikely Shimano would get permission to use SRAM's intellectual property.** SRAM's literature, quoted below, tells a different story. Redesigning the cassette would have been required, but that it seems to me that would be only slightly more than trivial for a company with Shimano's manufacturing and engineering superiority. But perhaps there are intellectual property hurdles as well.
> 
> ...


There's already 11-50 cassettes for HG freehub bodies. 1 more tooth isn't going to matter 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

RAKC Ind said:


> There's already 11-50 cassettes for HG freehub bodies. 1 more tooth isn't going to matter
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


So right, it will not matter. However, when it arrives in Di2, I am a customer just cause I need to keep it fresh. When you get above 60, riding almost everyday will keep us alive a lot longer. So the latest tech just makes it even more fun which equals more miles ridden harder.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Pedalon2018 said:


> So right, it will not matter. However, when it arrives in Di2, I am a customer just cause I need to keep it fresh. When you get above 60, riding almost everyday will keep us alive a lot longer. So the latest tech just makes it even more fun which equals more miles ridden harder.


Yeap. New stuff does add more fun because it adds something different.

Now 10-51 or DI2 ya that's new, but the HG cassette thing is already out, not sure that's worth writing home about. But after all my riding the last 3 days, an extra 4 teeth (50t vs current 46t) would have been welcome the second half of today's ride. Lots of redlining the heart rate lol.

DI2 is one of those "some day but I really want it" things. Shimano doing 12 speed, yes please once we see XT level.

But now begs the question, 50T (and now 51t) is exceeding the limits of chains and drivetrains with the cutrent

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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Pedalon2018 said:


> So right, it will not matter. However, when it arrives in Di2, I am a customer just cause I need to keep it fresh. When you get above 60, riding almost everyday will keep us alive a lot longer. So the latest tech just makes it even more fun which equals more miles ridden harder.


Ok Tapatalk being weird. Can't delete

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I bet shimano is working on a wireless electronic shifting system to replace Di2, just a total guess of course.


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## karmaphi (Mar 19, 2018)

RAKC Ind said:


> Now 10-51 or DI2 ya that's new, but the HG cassette thing is already out, not sure that's worth writing home about.


HG and HG+ are different. Very different. Did you not read about how they made it so the chain remains engaged throughout the shift, splitting engagement between the two cogs, allowing for shifting under power? Imagine no more hard clunk, no more possibility of slipping... is this not a very notable feature worth mentioning? Shimano claims it's the heart of their new drivetrain's innovations. It was explained that it offered HG ramping in both directions (I assume it was only in the downshift/climbing direction before).

https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/25/2019-shimano-xtr-m9100-unveiled-this-changes-everything/


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

karmaphi said:


> HG and HG+ are different. Very different. Did you not read about how they made it so the chain remains engaged throughout the shift, splitting engagement between the two cogs, allowing for shifting under power? Imagine no more hard clunk, no more possibility of slipping... is this not a very notable feature worth mentioning? Shimano claims it's the heart of their new drivetrain's innovations. It was explained that it offered HG ramping in both directions (I assume it was only in the downshift/climbing direction before).
> 
> https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/25/2019-shimano-xtr-m9100-unveiled-this-changes-everything/


I was referring to an 11-50 cassette that fits normal freehubs which was all I thought he was referring too.

I have to re-read the details, I was at a family get together today after riding in 90F heat and drinking beer not water once I arrived. So parts of the day are missing some details, hehe

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## Sparkman999 (Dec 19, 2017)

I can't believe they stuck with 24mm spindles when it's clear that 28.99mm spindles are superior. :skep:


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> There's already 11-50 cassettes for HG freehub bodies. 1 more tooth isn't going to matter
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


It's not so much the 1 tooth on the big ring that matters. It's the one they took off the smallest.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

noapathy said:


> It's not so much the 1 tooth on the big ring that matters. It's the one they took off the smallest.


You didn't read what I was responding to, asking about an 11-51 for standard current Shimano freehubs.

But ya the new standard like SRAM offers. 10t cog now which widens range more than what 11s offers.

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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> You didn't read what I was responding to, asking about an 11-51 for standard current Shimano freehubs.
> 
> But ya the new standard like SRAM offers. 10t cog now which widens range more than what 11s offers.


That's what I get for skimming.

As far as range goes, I can't see much more range increase without a front derailleur (not likely) or internal gearing. Not that I'm in a huge hurry... honestly I'm happy enough with 10spd and have enough spare parts to keep me running for quite some time.


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## joeadnan (Oct 21, 2003)

321g for the rear j-bend hub can't be right. Perhaps 231g?

http://reviews.mtbr.com/new-shimano-xtr-hubs-pedals-and-more

It doesn't say if the wide flange hub is available in both j-bend and straight pull.

The 11 speed option would be great for weight weenies. Fast engagement, Shimano durability and superior bracing angle, all for a weight that is comparable to all but the lightest of hubs.

It would be interesting to see what the spoke tension percentage will be.

10-45 x 28T would yield a better range both at the high and low end than the current XT 11-46 x 30T. Which is strange why a 28T chainring is not offered.

The chamfered inner plate might suggest that current aftermarket narrow wide chainrings might be too wide to fit the new chain.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Yes, it's 231g.

Only J-bend for the 11s version, the weight is listed as 228g


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shimano-xtr-cs-m9100-12-speed-cassette-740329

291 eur, exactly the same as Eagle cassette then, available at least in 6 weeks according to bikediscount


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

It was certainly only a matter of time and they are there. I'm sure it will work great but too late for me, I like my Eagle XO1 and Guide Brakes. The hub standard looks interesting. Shimano stuff is always super-precise and appliance like....the Toyota Camry of drivetrains but I prefer the push-push and more positive feel of Sram. I like the variety Shimano is offering in terms of ranges, certainly curious to try it but again, sticking with the Eagle!


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## 410sprint (Oct 19, 2012)

GuitsBoy said:


> Shimano cassettes have fully folded on me, but then again so have expensive e-13, cheap sunrace, and practically every other cassette out there.


Wow! The cogs folded? I've never heard of such a thing in my 40+ years of cycling.

Surely you have some pictures. Please share.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

410sprint said:


> Wow! The cogs folded? I've never heard of such a thing in my 40+ years of cycling.


I've seen sram cogs bent/folded but never on a shimano.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

410sprint said:


> Wow! The cogs folded? I've never heard of such a thing in my 40+ years of cycling.
> 
> Surely you have some pictures. Please share.


I realize this is a shimano thread, however I cant seem to find my 11-42 10 and 11 speed carnage pics. However the failure method is the same as this e*13 and sunrace cog. In fact, the shimano xt cassettes were folded worse. Hopefully I can find them when I have more time.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Folded over cassettes isnt an easy thing to do. I'm 275lbs and hammer the hell out of things, only cassette cog I've EVER folded was because of a bad shift while mashing. Though I've never ran Sram eagle I do have sunrace cassettes. Folding them as much as above is hard not to question really bad shifting habits because that's the only way you can bend them like that I can think of unless it's running a big front ring and mashing all the time. But on a 30 or 32 I haven't managed that yet.

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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

RAKC Ind said:


> Folding them as much as above is hard not to question really bad shifting habits because that's the only way you can bend them like that.


Everyone is always very quick to blame shifting habits, and I guess I can understand where youre all coming from. However I can tell you with 100% certainty every cassette I have folded over has happened without any shifting at all. Its simply a function of traction, chainline and out of the saddle mashing. No shifting. Some times you can feel as soon as it folds over, as the pedal stroke feels soft. Other times its more mild, and you dont notice until the bottom few gears start ghost shifting all of a sudden.

Whats more, if this was indeed due to a misshift, it would more likely be a single snaggled tooth, or broken tooth as the chain is pulled at a sharp angle from one cog to the next. As you can see thats not the case here, as theyre all bent over smoothly.

I'm surprised so many people question this, there's been plenty of posts about bent big cogs here in the drivetrain forum.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

The advantage of Shimano in that case is that you can replace that part of the cassette.

Which cassette has a red spider and spacers?


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

GuitsBoy said:


> Everyone is always very quick to blame shifting habits, and I guess I can understand where youre all coming from. However I can tell you with 100% certainty every cassette I have folded over has happened without any shifting at all. Its simply a function of traction, chainline and out of the saddle mashing. No shifting. Some times you can feel as soon as it folds over, as the pedal stroke feels soft. Other times its more mild, and you dont notice until the bottom few gears start ghost shifting all of a sudden.
> 
> Whats more, if this was indeed due to a misshift, it would more likely be a single snaggled tooth, or broken tooth as the chain is pulled at a sharp angle from one cog to the next. As you can see thats not the case here, as theyre all bent over smoothly.
> 
> I'm surprised so many people question this, there's been plenty of posts about bent big cogs here in the drivetrain forum.


Ya I corrected my post while you were reading that, I could see taller rings and mashing with chainlines causing issues but I would have expected more than just a few teeth or so to fold in that case. Looked more like partial chain engagement when mashing starts. But until my phat a$$ manages to do what you've done I won't fully understand.

The ones I've seen have been on ultralight cassettes, more mid range cassettes isnt something I expected many beyond serious power houses (maybe you are one which would explain things).

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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

RAKC Ind said:


> Ya I corrected my post while you were reading that, I could see taller rings and mashing with chainlines causing issues but I would have expected more than just a few teeth or so to fold in that case. Looked more like partial chain engagement when mashing starts. But until my phat a$$ manages to do what you've done I won't fully understand.
> 
> The ones I've seen have been on ultralight cassettes, more mid range cassettes isnt something I expected many beyond serious power houses (maybe you are one which would explain things).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I have seen smaller guys do this too. Oddly, it seems mashers that ride flats are more prone, but Im pulling from a very small sample size. I'm only a mid level rider overall, but I can recruit a lot of torque over short distances, which is what seems to shred parts. The shimano cassettes were indeed folded over a larger number of teeth than the other cassettes I pictured. I dont know if that means they were stronger or weaker, but both were bent while on the fatbike. Keep in mind, I break freehubs and chains on the reg as well. Ive had two sram eagle GX chains pull apart in under 200 miles, so that's my next gripe.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

GuitsBoy said:


> I have seen smaller guys do this too. Oddly, it seems mashers that ride flats are more prone, but Im pulling from a very small sample size. I'm only a mid level rider overall, but I can recruit a lot of torque over short distances, which is what seems to shred parts. The shimano cassettes were indeed folded over a larger number of teeth than the other cassettes I pictured. I dont know if that means they were stronger or weaker, but both were bent while on the fatbike. Keep in mind, I break freehubs and chains on the reg as well. Ive had two sram eagle GX chains pull apart in under 200 miles, so that's my next gripe.


Going further off-topic here, but have you ever thought about trying an Onyx Racing hub? Maybe the soft engagement and spring-winding-up action of the sprags under extreme torque could work to your advantage and save those component failures? It just makes for nice soft yet instant engagement normally, but for you it would be a bulletproof hub that could also act as a driveline torque peak smoother with no net loss of energy and probably less rolling resistance than what you are on now. Costly, but maybe not in the long run.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

richde said:


> Which cassette has a red spider and spacers?


Sunrace makes versions of their cassettes with red spiders and spacers.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Velodonata said:


> Sunrace makes versions of their cassettes with red spiders and spacers.


Ah, so don't buy sunrace cassettes and don't assume Shimano or SRAM cassettes are the same as sunrace.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

richde said:


> Ah, so don't buy sunrace cassettes and don't assume Shimano or SRAM cassettes are the same as sunrace.


Only if you're in that tiny group of abnormally strong and/or destructive riders. Otherwise, no worries. I've been running an 11-40 Sunrace for over a year now and it's been just as good as the XT/SLX stuff.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

richde said:


> Ah, so don't buy sunrace cassettes and don't assume Shimano or SRAM cassettes are the same as sunrace.


I'm 275lbs and can mash in things fairly hard NEVER damaged a sunrace cassette and have 2 on 2 different bikes. Many, many people ride sunrace with no problems. If your going to cause a sunrace cassette to fail Shimano and sram will fail as well.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

This is the last cassette problem I've had (almost exactly 2 yrs ago):


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

New standard is good if it improves the existing one.

This freehub is an improvement. Allows cheaper cassettes in parts, hybrid cassettes for more optimal weight/wear. Many more splines to carry the torque of the bigger cogs, and spread the load of individual cogs so they don't chip the freehub as quickly. All improvements.

New ispec, if it offers more adjustment range, why not?

You guys think that you should judge the group whether it fits an old bike. That's the last thing a manufacturer cares about. It's about new bike sales. They don't design next year's group for last year's bikes.

When XT/SLX/Deore come out in this configuration srams dominance on drivetrain will be history, unless they continues their well known "OEM pricing".

What this means for you, that competition drives prices down, now there is competition. You should be happy even if you are a sram fan.

One thing that is for sure bad for consumers is monopoly. Sram monopoly is over.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

CrozCountry said:


> New standard is good if it improves the existing one.
> 
> This freehub is an improvement. Allows cheaper cassettes in parts, hybrid cassettes for more optimal weight/wear. Many more splines to carry the torque of the bigger cogs, and spread the load of individual cogs so they don't chip the freehub as quickly. All improvements.
> 
> ...


The simple answer: Because marginal improvements screw people over more than they improve the riding experience.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Jayem said:


> The simple answer: Because marginal improvements screw people over more than they improve the riding experience.


Disagree, marginal gains are the reasons we have such great bikes today. Old tech is still available for those who want it.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Velodonata said:


> Going further off-topic here, but have you ever thought about trying an Onyx Racing hub? Maybe the soft engagement and spring-winding-up action of the sprags under extreme torque could work to your advantage and save those component failures? It just makes for nice soft yet instant engagement normally, but for you it would be a bulletproof hub that could also act as a driveline torque peak smoother with no net loss of energy and probably less rolling resistance than what you are on now. Costly, but maybe not in the long run.


Thats an interesting concept. A good friend of mine rides onyx and what your saying about the sprag clutch does make sense, as it may eliminate the initial shock to the drivetrain. Historically, I have bent more cassettes on the fatbike, which I chalked up to the extra traction. However a compounding issue might be the fact that my cheap hubs use a standard shimano freehub with only 18 points of engagement. With the added rotation of the cranks before the pawls catch, the resulting shock may be adding stress to the mix.

Sorry for all the off-topic conversation. I'll certainly be watching to see how the durability is on these things, particularly once it trickles down to XT.


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## mfa81 (Apr 1, 2011)

Jayem said:


> The simple answer: Because marginal improvements screw people over more than they improve the riding experience.


not really, people don't need to buy if it's not compatible with whatever current bike they have. there is still plenty of stuff available that work with old standards, even 26" tires are available all over the place!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

mfa81 said:


> not really, people don't need to buy if it's not compatible with whatever current bike they have. there is still plenty of stuff available that work with old standards, even 26" tires are available all over the place!


Exactly. All the curmudgeons that complain about new standards etc. but you can buy all that old 9 and 10 speed stuff, 135mm QR hubs, straight steerer forks, and the list goes on. At some point, you upgrade your bike and progress moves on. My 2012 HT is still more than useable with 10 speed and QRs and I can buy parts for it at 6 years old.


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## Whambat (Jul 30, 2006)

mfa81 said:


> not really, people don't need to buy if it's not compatible with whatever current bike they have. there is still plenty of stuff available that work with old standards, even 26" tires are available all over the place!


It's not just that it won't work with old stuff. There's a huge part of the new market that it won't work for. Having only two hub options shuts it out of a lot of OEM potential. Take Ibis for example, they have either Ibis or I-9 hubs as options. They have worked a long standing partnership with I-9. Does this mean Ibis can no longer offer a Shimano build kit option? Or is Shimano going to strong arm them into sticking their hubs? What about Pivot? They have been one of the few brands to be mostly Shimano centric, but there is no XTR super boost hubs for them. Is Pivot going to stick with Shimano now?
It just reminds me of the strong arm tactics Shimano used in the 90s when they essentially had a monopoly. However, they no longer have the leverage they used to have.

Trust me I want Shimano to succeed. I just rode my Shimano equipped bike today and would love to see continued refinement of that product. I have nothing against new standards if they make sense and are open for the industry to use.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Shimano will have to open Micro-Spline up, but I expect they are in no rush since the parts are not even available yet and will be XTR exclusive for a while. They may have a deal with DT for a time, and want to get some exposure for the Scylence hubs, but there is no way they can lock this thing down long term, it would be insane. They are in prime position to take advantage of SRAM's mistake in creating a standard with limited utility. I would be shocked if they fail to capitalize on that.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

RAKC Ind said:


> Folded over cassettes isnt an easy thing to do. I'm 275lbs and hammer the hell out of things, only cassette cog I've EVER folded was because of a bad shift while mashing. Though I've never ran Sram eagle I do have sunrace cassettes. Folding them as much as above is hard not to question really bad shifting habits because that's the only way you can bend them like that I can think of unless it's running a big front ring and mashing all the time. But on a 30 or 32 I haven't managed that yet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


lol, my 13yr old has done this on his 11-50 cassette. I'm a bit annoyed and still scratching my head how he did it at his hefty 90lbs wet. The big cog isn't as bent as the ones in the pic but its there and with one broken tooth.

That said it's clear we've approached the limit of cassette sizing. All them big arse cassettes lack durability.



GuitsBoy said:


> I have seen smaller guys do this too.


Concur.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Velodonata said:


> Shimano will have to open Micro-Spline up, but I expect they are in no rush since the parts are not even available yet and will be XTR exclusive for a while. They may have a deal with DT for a time, and want to get some exposure for the Scylence hubs, but there is no way they can lock this thing down long term, it would be insane. They are in prime position to take advantage of SRAM's mistake in creating a standard with limited utility. I would be shocked if they fail to capitalize on that.


They will, it's a little silly to assume otherwise.

I'd be willing to bet that any Xd driver availability issues were the fault of the hub manufacturers, as will any problems with micro spline...and just like with Xd, they'll be temporary.


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

They will probably open the hub standard with XT/SLX where builds will have to be more price sensitive.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Whambat said:


> It's not just that it won't work with old stuff. There's a huge part of the new market that it won't work for. Having only two hub options shuts it out of a lot of OEM potential. Take Ibis for example, they have either Ibis or I-9 hubs as options. They have worked a long standing partnership with I-9. Does this mean Ibis can no longer offer a Shimano build kit option? Or is Shimano going to strong arm them into sticking their hubs? What about Pivot? They have been one of the few brands to be mostly Shimano centric, but there is no XTR super boost hubs for them. Is Pivot going to stick with Shimano now?
> .


Ibis and Pivot are horrible examples. Ibis doesn't care and will probably just offer sram builds for 2019. They are also a much smaller customer for shimano than pivot is. Pivot is firmly in bed with DT so this doesn't effect them whatsoever. And they love new complications and standards. They'll probably be the first to show a bike in the US with new xtr and dt wheels with the new driver. Bank on it.

Shimano can't "strongarm" anyone as long as sram exists. That's not what strongarm means. If anything, this is costing them a little more potential sales in the higher end of the market for 2019 models. Remember, this is just XTR. This isn't going to make a big difference for their oem sales until it trickles down to xt and slx. Just like the killing sram has made with eagle gx the last 2 years.


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## mfa81 (Apr 1, 2011)

richde said:


> They will, it's a little silly to assume otherwise.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that any Xd driver availability issues were the fault of the hub manufacturers, as will any problems with micro spline...and just like with Xd, they'll be temporary.


Exactly, Shimano wouldn't be so dumb to have only DT making compatible, all hubs will be compatible sooner or later.


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## Lars_D (May 24, 2011)

I'd rather see a 9 tooth cog. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Now official: upgrades for DT hubs will be available. Just swap it in, no tools required. https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/04/mi...et-dt-swiss-freehub-availability-for-new-xtr/


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I was at the LBS and they were saying Shimano is doing 2x12, including 2x 10-50! Wha?


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Lone Rager said:


> I was at the LBS and they were saying Shimano is doing 2x12, including 2x 10-50! Wha?


I'm amazed at the degree to which Shimano desperately clings to the front derailleur. Meanwhile there have been significant improvements in mountain bike components and frame geometry throughout the past decade. The obsolescence of the front derailleur is certainly one of these and cause for ongoing celebration.
=sParty


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> I'm amazed at the degree to which Shimano desperately clings to the front derailleur. Meanwhile there have been significant improvements in mountain bike components and frame geometry throughout the past decade. The obsolescence of the front derailleur is certainly one of these and cause for ongoing celebration.
> =sParty


One of the benefits of 1x is it has greatly simplified suspension kinematics. Having 2 or 3 rings was especially problematic to suspension designers, because they had to try and design the "best compromise" between wildly changing kinematics depending on what ring you were in. Many single pivot bikes now work just as well as "more complicated" parallel linkage and other suspension systems.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Will new 12 speed xtr have more Torque than sram? 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

^^^ facetious, I hope?


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Sparticus said:


> I'm amazed at the degree to which Shimano desperately clings to the front derailleur. Meanwhile there have been significant improvements in mountain bike components and frame geometry throughout the past decade. The obsolescence of the front derailleur is certainly one of these and cause for ongoing celebration.
> =sParty


Only obsolete to you. 1x still cannot match the full range of 2x and some people need the range.

The fact you consider 1x as an upgrade is kind of odd honestly. 1x has been around since chains went on bicycles. It's "technically" a downgrade. But people buy into the marketing koolaid instead of seeing what 1x really is, another option that works well for some and corrects issues for FS bikes which are the tiniest percentage of bikes out there. But for many these new 1x systems are a solution to a non-existant problem created by posts like yours in which people believe and demand better.

They could have designed and released wide range cassettes long ago.

Look at the mass numbers of problems with sram 12s shifting and such. We've hit and now trying to go through a wall of how many gears you can cram on the back.

All that said I only ride 1x, all I need here. Been doing it since LONG before everyone jumped on the wagon.

On the plus side at least shimano puts time and effort into their design instead of having the same problems YEARS LATER. I run shimano on one bike and sram on the other. Counting down the days I can get rid of my sram GX drivetrain and go shimano on that bike too.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

RAKC Ind said:


> Only obsolete to you. 1x still cannot match the full range of 2x and some people need the range.


It's pretty close, if using 2x10 speed with 11-36 cassette it's about exactly the same as 1x with a 10-50.

I'm not anti 2x at all because I think it's good for many situations and riders but 2x with a 11-50 cassette does seem borderline ridiculous to me. I suppose there are a few riders who might want it though.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> It's pretty close, if using 2x10 speed with 11-36 cassette it's about exactly the same as 1x with a 10-50.
> 
> I'm not anti 2x at all because I think it's good for many situations and riders but 2x with a 11-50 cassette does seem borderline ridiculous to me. I suppose there are a few riders who might want it though.


I'll agree that 2x with 10/11-50 is a bit insane.

But how does that compare to 3x10 though? I haven't done the numbers but seems like 2x12 can do same range at least of 3x10.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## bronxbomber252 (Mar 27, 2017)

I maight be tempted to build an XC hardtail with 2x12 10-45 and use it for long rides with a mix of road, gravel, and singletrack. With some fast rolling XC tires it would also work well as a commuter that you could have some serious fun with along the way. Main advantage over older 2x systems with similar range would be closer jumps between gears which could be handy on road/gravel.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 17, 2009)

bronxbomber252 said:


> I maight be tempted to build an XC hardtail with 2x12 10-45 and use it for long rides with a mix of road, gravel, and singletrack. With some fast rolling XC tires it would also work well as a commuter that you could have some serious fun with along the way. Main advantage over older 2x systems with similar range would be closer jumps between gears which could be handy on road/gravel.


I've got a XC FS that ran 2x11 11-40 for a time. I never ran out of gears, just legs.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Lone Rager said:


> I was at the LBS and they were saying Shimano is doing 2x12, including 2x 10-50! Wha?


They are clinging to the past tenaciously and it's amusing.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

There's also a 10-45 11spd version with the improved shifting and silent hub. If and when this hits XT/SLX pricepoints that should tempt more folks like myself to finally move on from 10spd.

(edited for incorrect info)


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

noapathy said:


> The 2x isn't compatible with the 10-51 anyway...


Check the second item down in the first column.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Lone Rager said:


> Check the second item down in the first column.
> 
> View attachment 1202500


Ah, thanks for sorting me out. I misread an article and my brain could only hold so many specs at a time. 

Maybe now I can finally climb that cliff without dismounting!


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

I'd like a 2x12 26-36 10-34


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

hopefully by the time this trickles down, licensed has been available to other hub manufacturers aside from dt swiss.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

spyghost said:


> hopefully by the time this trickles down, licensed has been available to other hub manufacturers aside from dt swiss.


Unless Shimano enjoys shooting itself in the head, there's no doubt in my mind additional (read: any) hub manufacturers will have access to manufacture to Shimano's new 12-spd standard.

Everybody on these forums keeps saying, "Only Shimano & DT hubs will be available!!! {gasp!!!}"

No. Only Shimano & DT hubs have been announced SO FAR.

Saying that all wheels are round doesn't mean everything that's round is a wheel.

Maybe an awkward analogy but y'all know what I mean.
=sParty


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

Universal Cycles now lists much of the new XTR here: https://www.universalcycles.com/new_products.php (hopefully the link works or just go to newest products)
They are not in-stock, but for those that want it first you can sign-up for an alert.


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## mfa81 (Apr 1, 2011)

Aresab said:


> Universal Cycles now lists much of the new XTR here: https://www.universalcycles.com/new_products.php (hopefully the link works or just go to newest products)
> They are not in-stock, but for those that want it first you can sign-up for an alert.


shimano haven't released their stuff yet and it's already on sale


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Schulze said:


> I'd like a 2x12 26-36 10-34


I was thinking 2x12, 42-53, 10-21


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> I was thinking 2x12, 42-53, 10-21


That would be pretty sweet, tbh. Altho for mountain riding I'd prefer 36/22 + 11-36 12 speed with all those sweet 1-tooth jumps on the high gears.

I'm not butthurt over FD, obviously.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> Only obsolete to you. 1x still cannot match the full range of 2x and some people need the range.
> 
> The fact you consider 1x as an upgrade is kind of odd honestly. 1x has been around since chains went on bicycles. It's "technically" a downgrade. But people buy into the marketing koolaid instead of seeing what 1x really is, another option that works well for some and corrects issues for FS bikes which are the tiniest percentage of bikes out there. But for many these new 1x systems are a solution to a non-existant problem created by posts like yours in which people believe and demand better.
> 
> ...


What specifically are the "mass numbers of problems" with Sram Eagle? I have it, lots of my friends have it, no problems. It's more precise and requires proper set up for sure. The chain ocassionally riding on the 42/50 cogs isn't so much of a problem but a "normal condition" that has zero impact on the overall use/quality of the shifting. I am curious to see how the Shimano stuff does/deals with some of this.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> What specifically are the "mass numbers of problems" with Sram Eagle? I have it, lots of my friends have it, no problems. It's more precise and requires proper set up for sure. The chain ocassionally riding on the 42/50 cogs isn't so much of a problem but a "normal condition" that has zero impact on the overall use/quality of the shifting. I am curious to see how the Shimano stuff does/deals with some of this.


Yeah, virtually every fatbike in the last few years here (and that's a lot of fatbikes) has it.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

1x is a compromise for sure but getting to be less so with these mega-range systems. For "normal" mountainbiking it's great. If you are riding 25 miles of fast rolling gravel roads to get to the trail head and your trails involve incredibly steep climbs, it's not going to be ideal and maybe a double is still a good option for you to get more high/low end range but again, most folks are driving to the trail, and riding stuff that involves climbing that a 32/50 is more than adequate for and flats that a 32/10 is more than adequate for and aren't super concerned with the jumps between gears....it's why it's popular and Shimano knows it and has taken heat for not offering a super-wide range setup like this. 1000 miles on my Eagle XO1 with no drama/issues. Chain still not at 0.5 wear mark yet. I really like it.


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## JohnMcL7 (Jul 26, 2013)

noapathy said:


> Ah, thanks for sorting me out. I misread an article and my brain could only hold so many specs at a time.
> 
> Maybe now I can finally climb that cliff without dismounting!


I'm guessing the articles were wrong then as several definitely said the 2x12 option was the 10-45 cassette only:

https://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/...ce-weight-details-micro-spline-freehub-52337/



> XTR M9100 offers three 1x options and one 2x option.
> 
> 1x12 with a 10-51t cassette
> 1x12 with a 10-45t cassette
> ...


I don't understand the love for 1x systems although I was curious if I'd think any different when I went with the Stache that can't take a front derailleur. However I still don't get it, the range is reduced and the cassette is a lot more expensive so the only advantage I've had with it is there's more space for a dropper lever. The weight savings of removing the front derailleur are very small and while I've had a few mechanicals with a rear derailleur, the front has been fine. Even if it did fail, you can still have a near 1x range at the back anyway. I do realise I could change the Stache to GX Eagle to improve the range but that helps one problem while making the cassette cost, a wearable part much worse plus I dislike the Sram shifter design.

John


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Jan said:


> Don't think so. Maybe it will work, but the spacing is not the same. https://sram.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/sections/115000545854-SRAM-Eagle-


Wondering if this is like two years ago when SRAM said only Eagle 12 chainrings would work on their new drivetrain? They sold a lot of expensive Eagle chainrings before everyone realized any narrow speed ring would work.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

mfa81 said:


> shimano haven't released their stuff yet and it's already on sale


You got me all tingly. Of course nothing in stock.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

JohnMcL7 said:


> I'm guessing the articles were wrong then as several definitely said the 2x12 option was the 10-45 cassette only:
> 
> https://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/...ce-weight-details-micro-spline-freehub-52337/
> 
> ...


Because even in a race, you really don't use the higher gears all that much. Even if you did make up 3 seconds in the downhill, it's totally eclipsed by what happens everywhere else. Racers are completing races faster than ever and they are doing it on 1x systems. I'm not saying you need to go out and race, but as far as "slowing you down", that's just bunk.

Have you ever seen someone spinning way way too fast in a gear, like to the point where it causes their rigid bike to bob up and down, compressing the air in the tires, they usually look pretty ridiculous doing this, but if this is how you are pedaling downhill on 1x system, then by all means you might want a 2x system, even though the newest 1x systems address this with larger front chainrings and even larger rear cassettes. This is what is known as "spinning out".

I'm a pretty fast expert racer and every once and a while I'm fast enough to be comparable to pros. In all of my riding, I've not seen anyone that's going too slow because they are missing out on having higher gears. This is the big benefit of 1x, it cuts out the stuff that just wasn't used/did not make you faster, simplifies the drivetrain significantly, and you even get a few side-benefits like decreased drivetrain wear from not turning tiny 22t rings. 1x was also part of the clutch-derailleur revolution and today's ride was all kinds of mud, literally about every consistency possible, but the thing just stays attached and it keeps shifting.

1x also makes suspension kinematics much simpler, no longer do they have to worry about two totally different chain-points that will have vastly different characteristics. One of the great things about this is that now even single-pivot bikes can have kinematics that are similar to the best "multi-link" bikes. Even the great specialized has now made their Epic a single-pivot bike, pretty far removed from the horst-link that it used to be.

And yes, dropper posts are a great addition to a bike and now you can have one attached to your bar or brake lever in the natural position for your thumb.

I'm not going to say that there's never a use for 2 or 3x, but I have to question those that claim there isn't enough range with a 28 or 30x50+ tooth setup. What is it you are looking for, even easier gears? It wasn't that long ago that we were on 22x32 as the lowest gear, and somehow we survived. You really think you need that big 42-44t ring for mountain biking?


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

uzurpator said:


> That would be pretty sweet, tbh. Altho for mountain riding I'd prefer 36/22 + 11-36 12 speed with all those sweet 1-tooth jumps on the high gears.
> 
> I'm not butthurt over FD, obviously.


Shimano FD only support a 10t difference


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> I was thinking 2x12, 42-53, 10-21


Edgy.


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

For everyone who thinks that racers need more gear range, Shimano said the 45T 11speed cassette was asked by racers who do not need the range of 50+ cassettes, and do not want the extra baggage that comes with it.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Jayem said:


> Because even in a race, you really don't use the higher gears all that much. Even if you did make up 3 seconds in the downhill, it's totally eclipsed by what happens everywhere else. Racers are completing races faster than ever and they are doing it on 1x systems. I'm not saying you need to go out and race, but as far as "slowing you down", that's just bunk.
> 
> Have you ever seen someone spinning way way too fast in a gear, like to the point where it causes their rigid bike to bob up and down, compressing the air in the tires, they usually look pretty ridiculous doing this, but if this is how you are pedaling downhill on 1x system, then by all means you might want a 2x system, even though the newest 1x systems address this with larger front chainrings and even larger rear cassettes. This is what is known as "spinning out".
> 
> ...


This pretty well sums up why wide-range 1x is popular and the way Shimano and Sram are going.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Just a note, I meant 42-44t front ring


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## sturge (Feb 22, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Because even in a race, you really don't use the higher gears all that much. Even if you did make up 3 seconds in the downhill, it's totally eclipsed by what happens everywhere else. Racers are completing races faster than ever and they are doing it on 1x systems. I'm not saying you need to go out and race, but as far as "slowing you down", that's just bunk.
> 
> Have you ever seen someone spinning way way too fast in a gear, like to the point where it causes their rigid bike to bob up and down, compressing the air in the tires, they usually look pretty ridiculous doing this, but if this is how you are pedaling downhill on 1x system, then by all means you might want a 2x system, even though the newest 1x systems address this with larger front chainrings and even larger rear cassettes. This is what is known as "spinning out".
> 
> ...


I agree with this...long time 3X rider and latest bike is 1X12 GX Eagle. For the trails I ride, the older 3X large front chainring was never used and served as a bash guard. I love the new 1X12 but I'm finding 12 speed is overkill. I hardly ever use the smallest 3-4 gears on the cassette and the HUGE big gear is plenty low for the toughest uphill grinds.

Your choice of terrain and fitness level dictates what 'tranny' is best for you.  I'm always on technical singletrack NE trails so there's not a lot of high speed riding but I do push hard though some pretty boney terrain that requires regular use of lower gears. I think a 1X10 would be more than adequate for me.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Jayem said:


> I'm not going to say that there's never a use for 2 or 3x, but I have to question those that claim there isn't enough range with a 28 or 30x50+ tooth setup. What is it you are looking for, even easier gears?


It's not all about the range. Although, I can imagine some people wanting that 600% range. For me it is about gear selection. When I ride actual mountains, I use six of my eleven gears.

I would use more, but that pretty much covers the range I require. Years ago I had a double with a road cassette. I had more or less the same range, but I would use 12 gears out of 20 I had at my disposal. If I could switch my mondraker to a double, I would. But it does not take an FD.

If I'm riding around my house, I can use a 1x with a 11-3x cassette. I would usually configure my bike to be "1x" on the big ring for my local trails with a granny for those long climbs.

This current 1x thing, along with its "this bike can't use and FD" pretty much forces me to use it, and I don't like it.

And yes, I know, market forces, people have decided with their wallets. It does not mean I need to like it.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

uzurpator said:


> It's not all about the range. Although, I can imagine some people wanting that 600% range. For me it is about gear selection. When I ride actual mountains, I use six of my eleven gears.
> 
> I would use more, but that pretty much covers the range I require. Years ago I had a double with a road cassette. I had more or less the same range, but I would use 12 gears out of 20 I had at my disposal. If I could switch my mondraker to a double, I would. But it does not take an FD.
> 
> ...


To me, it's seamless. My 2012 SJ came with 1x and I noticed it for about a minute, then seamless. I just roll with the punches. I think some folks ***** about new stuff/change just to do it. How can Sram Eagle for example not work for you? I just don't get it.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

uzurpator said:


> It's not all about the range. Although, I can imagine some people wanting that 600% range. For me it is about gear selection. When I ride actual mountains, I use six of my eleven gears.
> 
> I would use more, but that pretty much covers the range I require. Years ago I had a double with a road cassette. I had more or less the same range, but I would use 12 gears out of 20 I had at my disposal. If I could switch my mondraker to a double, I would. But it does not take an FD.
> 
> ...


What don't you like about it? That it has five more gears than you use?
=sParty


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

uzurpator said:


> It's not all about the range. Although, I can imagine some people wanting that 600% range. For me it is about gear selection. When I ride actual mountains, I use six of my eleven gears.


Which gears do you use?


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> What don't you like about it? That it has five more gears than you use?
> =sParty


I don't like having a heavy piece of metal attached to my rear hub of which I use half. No, I'm not going to buy $200 wear items and yes, I like my suspension to work reliably.

I don't like being forced to use looong cage derailleurs. I can set up eagle ranged drivetrain with a zee RD and it just requires a smigeon of trigger discipline.

I don't like the absolute randomness of when an N/W ring is going to drop a chain.

I don't like, when I want to get a few pedal strokes in, being forced to ride at the least tensioned chain.

I don't like the absolutely horrible chainline on the lowest gears.

I don't like that the lightweight-ish cassettes, if I choose to buy one, use quick wearing aluminium on the most used cogs. When range extenders were a thing I could murder one in three-four months. Try to convince me to buy $350 eagle cassette three times per year - I dare you 

I don't like that I have a selection of 3 fast wearing gears ( 11/13/15 ) instead of 6-7 when I go fast. Yes. I am weary of my cadence. Having that 2 teeth jump at the high end is especially cancerous.



> Which gears do you use?


I have 32 front and 11-50 at the back. About 95% of my time in the mountains is spent on the 42 and 50 when going up and 13-15-18-21 when going down.

If I choose to ride around the house, then I almost solely use 11-13-15-18-21, the rest is just spinning metal and I miss the 12 and 14, to be honest.


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## alexdi (Jun 25, 2016)

I'm curious about backwards and cross-compatibility. Forgive the speculation if this was clarified in the PR, I didn't see it. 

Shimano says the 11S 10-45 is the 12S 10-50, less the biggest sprocket. The XTR shifters can be configured for 11S or 12S. By implication (if we assume even sprocket spacing), the 11S and 12S cassettes have the same sprocket width and pitch.

But what are they? I see a few possibilities: 

A) Same as existing Shimano/SRAM 11S. Existing 11S derailleur/shifter combinations would work with the new 11S cassettes and vice versa. 

B) Different than existing Shimano/SRAM 11S, but not the same as SRAM 12S. No backwards or cross-compatibility with anything. 

C) Same as SRAM 12S. Cross-compatible with SRAM cassettes, not backwards compatible with Shimano 11S. 

I'm betting on A or B. Probably A, though if this is the case, I wonder where they're finding room to extend the cassette. Thoughts?

EDIT: Redacted notes about old shifter compatibility, this'll depend entirely on the pull and movement ratios of the new shifters and derailleurs.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

I am actually curious about this as well. Moreover, I am also curious if they keep the dyna-sys pull ratio.

B) would be a hell of a feat to pull off tho. They have the same space as anyone else, and the cogs are so closely crammed that even if they try to make it incompatible, it is going to be very, very close.

You already can mix/match 11 speed campagnolo and shimano systems. And you can mix/match 10 and 11 speed stuff freely. I am almost certain that all 12 speed systems are going to to be effectively cross-compatible because there is simply no way to do anything but.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

It's A. Shimano has noted in their presentations that they widened the cassette by dishing the biggest cog further toward the spokes. This isn't ideal unless one of your goals was to keep the spacing the same as their 11spd stuff.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

92gli said:


> It's A. Shimano has noted in their presentations that they widened the cassette by dishing the biggest cog further toward the spokes. This isn't ideal unless one of your goals was to keep the spacing the same as their 11spd stuff.


Did they specifically say that all they did was hang another cog on the back of the cassette, though? Because, while widening towards the spokes was pretty much mandatory, it does not preclude also tightening up the cog spacing. This is how SRAM did Eagle, the 10t didn't move but the individual spacing tightened up and the 50t was positioned off to the inside of the previous 42t location. I read way too many takes on this stuff to remember all the details but I got the impression M9100 was not going to be compatible with any existing Shimano standards, but might be close enough to 12s SRAM for some cross compatibility. The new 11s cassette is kind of a super-oddball by being essentially a 12 speed cassette with a missing big cog. And possibly the most enticing to me.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

92gli said:


> It's A. Shimano has noted in their presentations that they widened the cassette by dishing the biggest cog further toward the spokes.


Another reason in favor of the super boost 157 rear hub standard.
=sParty


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

In my mind, the 1x drivetrain is the worst drivetrain ever created for mountain bikes except for all the others. 
=sParty


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## alexdi (Jun 25, 2016)

Now I'm leaning toward B or C.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/duraace-r9100/SM-CN900-11.html
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/xtr-m9100/SM-CN910-12.html

Just eyeballing the two quick-links, the 12S version has narrower pins. It's looking like that 11S 10-45 (which is, I agree, very compelling) won't be compatible with anything except new XTR.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I'll never understand the folks that resist time and time again drivetrain upgrades over time. Here it is. I started riding mtbs in 1991. At that time, my first mtb, a GT, had a triple with Shimano rapid fire shifters. 24/36/46 non-compact I believe with a 11-28 7 speed cassette. Horrible. Dropped chains, chainsuck, and OH MY GOD A 24/28 GRANNY. Went to thumbshifters, gripshift (shitshow with HD springs, Bassworms, and Rollamagigs), and then back to Shimano rapid-fire in the mid-90s on a compact 8-speed Shimano XT triple setup with 22/32/44 chainrings and an upgraded 11-32 cassette for a super low granny gear. I went from that straight to a singlespeed in the late 2000s with a 32/18 ratio. Then, back to gears in 2012 with a radical new setup called "1x". I think I spent about 5 minutes on any one of these figuring them out and then forgetting about them. The 1x was 10-speed with a 33t ring and 11-36 cassette and was superior to the systems I had in the past except for climbing in the moutains. Dropped to a 32t ring and a went up to a 11-40 cassette and solved it. Now I'm on Eagle...it's the best drivetrain I've ever had in terms of range and precision. I never had 9 speed or 11 speed or a 2x...skipped them. I have no idea why anyone would want to use a FD ever again. I run a standard 2x on my road bike and in that duty, it's great but never again on a mtb. Hell, I'm on 1x on my gravel/CX bike too. Expensive cassettes? take care of your $hit and change the chain when it hits 0.5 and you won't replace them that often (2 years?). The newer stuff lasts so much longer than any of the 7/8 stuff I had.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> I'll never understand the folks that resist time and time again drivetrain upgrades over time. Here it is. I started riding mtbs in 1991. At that time, my first mtb, a GT, had a triple with Shimano rapid fire shifters. 24/36/46 non-compact I believe with a 11-28 7 speed cassette. Horrible. Dropped chains, chainsuck, and OH MY GOD A 24/28 GRANNY. Went to thumbshifters, gripshift (shitshow with HD springs, Bassworms, and Rollamagigs), and then back to Shimano rapid-fire in the mid-90s on a compact 8-speed Shimano XT triple setup with 22/32/44 chainrings and an upgraded 11-32 cassette for a super low granny gear. I went from that straight to a singlespeed in the late 2000s with a 32/18 ratio. Then, back to gears in 2012 with a radical new setup called "1x". I think I spent about 5 minutes on any one of these figuring them out and then forgetting about them. The 1x was 10-speed with a 33t ring and 11-36 cassette and was superior to the systems I had in the past except for climbing in the moutains. Dropped to a 32t ring and a went up to a 11-40 cassette and solved it. Now I'm on Eagle...it's the best drivetrain I've ever had in terms of range and precision. I never had 9 speed or 11 speed or a 2x...skipped them. I have no idea why anyone would want to use a FD ever again. I run a standard 2x on my road bike and in that duty, it's great but never again on a mtb. Hell, I'm on 1x on my gravel/CX bike too. Expensive cassettes? take care of your $hit and change the chain when it hits 0.5 and you won't replace them that often (2 years?). The newer stuff lasts so much longer than any of the 7/8 stuff I had.


I think skepticism is good and helps to offset the propaganda put out with "improvements". It helps keep some perspective.

Going from old 3 and 2x systems to 1x11 was a huge paradigm shift, significantly lighter, simpler, using some new wizardry like clutch derailleurs, narrow-wide, the one-piece cassettes, etc. Compared to what you were riding before, this was a pretty big change. At the same time, the marketing was heavy and every bike manufacturer seemed to spec this on their highest end builds, with some even dropping shimano XTR. It had a huge effect in the industry for sure, but the biggest change was simply riding. No more dropped chains. No more redundant gears. More space on the handlebar, more simplicity, etc.

Then look at Eagle or this new Shimano. Is that really the same magnitude of change? The manufacturers would like you to think so, so you go out and buy it, but riding day to day, is it really? Of course not. Widened the range a bit and added another gear. Nice, but not really any big change there.

There are countless examples we could make here IMO, where we look at the marginal or incremental changes vs. the big revolutionary ones. Some skepticism and criticism helps keep it in perspective.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

TiGeo said:


> I have no idea why anyone would want to use a FD ever again.


Me neither, though I wouldn't go so far as to tell other people what they should run. I simply don't get it.

I started riding off-road in '85 with a 3x5 drivetrain, thumbshifters, no index. I don't recall the gearing but it had a Sugino triple. I should go look... my ancient '84 Diamond Back Mean Streak is on display in the Westfir Lodge (Oregon). Haven't seen that bike in years. I did so many hard front wheel landings trying to learn to wheelie on it that I bent the steerer, which wasn't even cro-moly -- merely high tensile steel. Back then bike manufacturers weren't geared up to produce quality tubesets for this new thing that took years to even be called mountain biking. Bike mags called them clunkers, fat tire bikes, off-road bikes, ballooners.

I digress...

My hatred for the front derailleur really began when I suffered miserable chainsuck on a '00 Gary Fisher X-Caliber. Remember Shark Teeth? And fins? Sheesh. Chainsuck continued with my Salsa Big Mama (terrible bike, really) and inferior front shifting was a constant throughout the years on everything I rode. I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I don't know how to set up a FD but that's not true. Maybe FDs have gotten better recently but I don't know and don't care. I'll never forget climbing Hardesty Mountain on my '11 Turner Sultan (2x) and trying to drop from the large ring to the granny while grinding up a 20-something percent grade. Yeah, I know how to relieve pressure while making the shift, it's just that the damn thing never would make the shift.

I cried tears of joy when the wide range 1x drivetrain appeared on the market. Personally I'll never look back.
=sParty


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

TiGeo said:


> I'll never understand...


OK...I went through 2x/3x & 8/9/10 spd stuff, too. Yes, stuff is better in general. For some, it's cost. Others fear change. I just have too many spare parts (mostly 10spd).



TiGeo said:


> Then, back to gears in 2012 with a radical new setup called "1x". Dropped to a 32t ring and a went up to a 11-40 cassette and solved it.


That's just about what I run on one bike (30t/11-40). I like it pretty well.



TiGeo said:


> I have no idea why anyone would want to use a FD ever again.


Have you tried the new Shimano side swing FD? It really is nearly as good as rear shifting. And it still works with my old 10spd shifter/chain? Yes, please. And since they're not en vogue, FD prices are a bargain. I believe if this were around 10 years ago we'd be asking why anyone would even want to go 1x.


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

The latest wide range are an incremental improvement, but still an improvement.

I also started on 3X which I converted immediately to 2X + bash and then to 1X. Never looked back and I don't miss chain suck a tiny bit. Now with the big cassettes we don't have to hack it.

I have no idea why someone thinks 3X with the big saw disc right next to your leg is a good idea. I have seen it in action (fortunately not on my leg) and it was ugly.

Sure maybe there is some corner case that requires 2X on a mountain bike. But it's not my case or anyone I ride with. 10x42 cassette is a bit short for me occasionally, but I can totally live with it. Just a little annoyance here and there, nothing to really complain.

I will be pretty happy with the 10x45, but if I can choose, 50/51. Why not? I will not have Strava KOMs on the climbs either way


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

noapathy said:


> I believe if this were around 10 years ago we'd be asking why anyone would even want to go 1x.


And the answer would still be chainsuck. 
=sParty


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Sparticus said:


> And the answer would still be chainsuck.
> =sParty


I really can't remember the last time I've had chainsuck on any of my bikes (including 2 with 2x and the remaining 3x hardtail). But then I check for wear and replace stuff before it's worn down to dust.

I'm not saying 1x is bad, just that it's overrated.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

noapathy said:


> Have you tried the new Shimano side swing FD? It really is nearly as good as rear shifting. And it still works with my old 10spd shifter/chain? Yes, please. And since they're not en vogue, FD prices are a bargain. I believe if this were around 10 years ago we'd be asking why anyone would even want to go 1x.


Well, if it's really that good, it's only about 20 years too late. 

FDs have been a weak point for a long time. The SRAM micro-adjust front was one of the better ways to manage it for a while. Even if set up perfectly on a 3x, you'd get chain rub at the extremes and you tried to balance it all out with the ability to downshift to the granny, which as stated above, it tended to not want to do under power, as in it would stubbornly stay there and kind of jam-you into a situation where you get "stuck" because you can't let up.

I generally stopped using the FD over a few years. I realized it was faster to walk up a hill than spin in a granny gear combo like 22-36 and I made it my goal to always push as hard and far as I could in the middle ring. Eventually, I totally forgot about the granny gear and never used it. At this point the FD was just a chain-guide to me. This was a double-edged sword though, because although the conditioning was good, the FSR bikes I was on punished me more in the middle ring with much less anti-squat, so the harder I pedaled, the more the bike "fought back" to destroy my efficiency. Eventually moving to bikes that didn't have this efficiency limitation, I was home-free, so to speak.

But back to the derailleur, mechanically it was never well designed. The distance a FD had to move per "click" just never worked out right, front gears did not shift like rear gears and shimano had to resort to all sorts of chainring pinning/ramping wizardry to try and make up for this, but even still, they were marginal. They really killed themselves (FDs) and we are all better for it with 1x. Hell, I just did a gravel-grinder last night, where everyone is on CX or GG type bikes. I think I got top 5 on my fat-bike, the main problem I had was wind-resistance above about 15-20mph, where I had to draft or I had no chance and would get passed, but my 32x11-28 "1x" system was not the reason I couldn't go fast enough, it was plenty of gearing even for these roads up and down. I think the gearing issues are far more perceived than reality.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

noapathy said:


> I really can't remember the last time I've had chainsuck on any of my bikes (including 2 with 2x and the remaining 3x hardtail). But then I check for wear and replace stuff before it's worn down to dust.
> 
> I'm not saying 1x is bad, just that it's overrated.


I respect your opinion and your right to set up your bikes in whatever configuration appeals to you, good sir.

Meanwhile I'll do likewise.  Hope we get to ride together one of these days.
=sParty


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

tigeo said:


> I'll never understand the folks that resist time and time again drivetrain upgrades over time.


Maybe because at some point they reach a setup they are content with and see no reason to change when the industry tries, time and time again, to make them?

I have started with a 3x8, in which I quickly replaced the cassette from 11-32 to 13-26, because I didn't use the range. Then through the years I arrived at my preferred setup - which is a double on which the range on the big ring covers ~80% of my riding, so the FD works as a chain device and the granny is for those extended climbs and riding in heavy muck.

My only complaint here, is that the bike biz is taking that option away from me.



Sparticus said:


> I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I don't know how to set up a FD but that's not true.





> ...trying to drop from the large ring to the granny while grinding up a 20-something percent grade.


Those two things are mutually exclusive.

2x is 1x with a granny. On an average mountain ride you shift a total of six times maybe, when preparing for a major climb. Otherwise you stay on the big ring.



CrozCountry said:


> I have no idea why someone thinks 3X with the big saw disc right next to your leg is a good idea.


People ride different bikes on different trails in a different manner. 3x is 2x with an overgear. Even shimano considers the 32 in the middle to be the main gear to use. Some people need, or think they need, that big ring. I'm not going to claim they are wrong because I don't share that opinion.

Granted, 3x on a major enduro rig with 180mm travel is more of a hindrance then an asset, but not all people ride those.



NoApathy said:


> I believe if this were around 10 years ago we'd be asking why anyone would even want to go 1x.


1x was always present, at least for the Park 24/7 type of people. I experimented with 1x and extended range back in 2009 ( 11-39 custom CNCd cassette, short cage mech, 32T ring ).


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Jayem said:


> But back to the derailleur, mechanically it was never well designed. The distance a FD had to move per "click" just never worked out right, front gears did not shift like rear gears and shimano had to resort to all sorts of chainring pinning/ramping wizardry to try and make up for this, but even still, they were marginal.


FD works on tensioned chain, and as such, it is physically impossible for it to shift as efficiently as an RD. Shift ramps, gates and pins on both front and rear are almost identical, with the exception for the front rings being also pinned to pick the chain up.

The issue with the FD is that people had their heads filled with nonsense about cross-chaining ( does not seem to be an issue now, for some reason ) and duplicate ratios, so they tried to shift the FD as often as an RD, which is, surprise, not going to work.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

I also started with a 3x and went fully 1x and I love it.

The truth is, even the most hardcore lovers of 3x and 2x drivetrains that constanly say that they need the gear range or better shifting what so ever, almost don't use the front mech when they are riding.

I have friends that cling hard to their 3x and 2x and when we are riding they don't even use it.
Almost all the time riding they are in the second gear or in biggest gear ( 3x and 2x )
When I ask them "Sooo when are you using it?" 
I get the answer "Well, I actually don't need it....but it's nice to have it"

I mean WTF. 
I don't really care as long as they like it and it works for them, but it's kind of stupid.

Like the Shapeshifter on the Canyon Strive. 
No one needs it, no one wants it and people only using it to see if it's still works.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

OneTrustMan said:


> The truth is, even the most hardcore lovers of 3x and 2x drivetrains that constanly say that they need the gear range or better shifting what so ever, almost don't use the front mech when they are riding.


That might be truth for you and your friends, but that would stretch to say "it's like this for everyone". Thing is, even on XC world cup, where 1x actually works, you see bunch of people (in top 10) who ride 2x. 
I'm way more into xc then in any other riding, and I while 1x gives you range (at insane prices) of 2x, it's still not same. Changing 1 gear and switching for 8 tooth is not really same as changing 1 gear and switching for 3 tooth. If you don't believe this, ask roadies why they prefer 1 tooth difference between chainrings on their cassettes. So min and max ration is not only thing you want to see.
Personally I'm on 2x and 1x is simply not going to work for me. I don't ride XC races (if I do, it's XCM), nor DH races, I don't have mechanic that would prepare proper ratios for certain track, and I certainly don't have Shimano or Sram as sponsor, to get me new 100eur chain, 300+eur cassette and 100eur chainring every few months. And pretending 1x doesn't abuse material more then 2x is simply naive. So 2x is must for me, and honestly on my rides, I use both of front chainrings about equal time, as I have pretty much every ride that has 25+% uphill and at least some long downhill where you actually pedal at 45km/h.


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## Overspeed (Jan 9, 2017)

When is di2 xtr 12speed being released?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Sparticus said:


> And the answer would still be chainsuck.
> =sParty


I've never had chainsuck on any of my multi-chainring bikes. I fixed a lot of chainsuck issues while working in the shop and they were almost always due to worn parts.



primoz said:


> Thing is, even on XC world cup, where 1x actually works, you see bunch of people (in top 10) who ride 2x.


What wc pros are still riding 2x?*I haven't seen any.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Yes, which WC pros are riding 2x? I can't imagine any at this point. What are "insane prices"? An Eagle GX complete group kit is $450 and 11 speed wide range applications are essentially a <$100 Sunrace cassette.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

uzurpator said:


> 2x is 1x with a granny. On an average mountain ride you shift a total of six times maybe, when preparing for a major climb. Otherwise you stay on the big ring.


Maybe you do, but have you ridden with other riders before? I assure you a large amount of riders drop to the granny at the slightest incline. We tend to lose perspective when all we do is ride with faster/more serious people, but there are lots of people out there riding trails that do this far more than 6 times a ride.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Jayem said:


> Maybe you do, but have you ridden with other riders before? I assure you a large amount of riders drop to the granny at the slightest incline. We tend to lose perspective when all we do is ride with faster/more serious people, but there are lots of people out there riding trails that do this far more than 6 times a ride.


I'll give you an example of this...my son. He rides a Specy Pitch with an inexpensive triple. He always uses his granny and loses his chain ALL THE TIME - now to be fair, he is somewhat inexperienced and the nuances of riding with a FD are likely lost on a 13 year old but still, lots of dropped chain/chain suck. 1x would be a much better choice for him and at some point 1x11 wide range to keep a crawl gear will find it's way on his bike.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Jayem said:


> Well, if it's really that good, it's only about 20 years too late.
> 
> FDs have been a weak point for a long time. The SRAM micro-adjust front was one of the better ways to manage it for a while. Even if set up perfectly on a 3x, you'd get chain rub at the extremes and you tried to balance it all out with the ability to downshift to the granny, which as stated above, it tended to not want to do under power, as in it would stubbornly stay there and kind of jam-you into a situation where you get "stuck" because you can't let up.
> 
> ...


Totally agree!

Yup, I don't think we disagree on a fundamental level. They still have room for improvement since as smooth as the side swing is, it's still not there yet...but it's a LOT better, finally.



Sparticus said:


> I respect your opinion and your right to set up your bikes in whatever configuration appeals to you, good sir.
> 
> Meanwhile I'll do likewise.  Hope we get to ride together one of these days.
> =sParty


And that's why we'd have no probs getting along. As much as I defend my own equipment choices, in the end this whole thing is all about getting out on 2 wheels for a bit of fun. The rest is just noise.

Yup yup!


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

J.B. Weld said:


> I've never had chainsuck on any of my multi-chainring bikes. I fixed a lot of chainsuck issues while working in the shop and they were almost always due to worn parts.


I agree that chainsuck is most commonly a symptom of worn parts but not always. Salsa's Big Mama suffered chainsuck by design which, in my mind, is why it was replaced the following year by the Spearfish. Several in my local ride group bought BMs (ha!) because we got sweet deals, they all suffered chainsuck miserably right out of the box.

Another factor that encourages chainsuck on a reasonable functional drivetrain is winter sludge here in the PNWet. Even on a drivetrain that's got plenty of life left in it, extreme muck & sludge can cause persistent chainsuck.

Today's 1x drivetrain with n/w chainring = adios forever to chainsuck regardless of conditions.



uzurpator said:


> My only complaint here, is that the bike biz is taking that option away from me.


I totally respect this.



uzurpator said:


> Those two things are mutually exclusive.


Um, no they're not. You nearly had me 'til you said this. The construction of the Sultan's seat tube / BB cluster didn't allow adequate room for the FD to collapse enough to pull the chain over. Sure this was probably the fault of frame design, not the FD per se, but in the end I didn't care -- the damn thing simply didn't work. So I turned to a 1x drivetrain -- problem solved. Simply & elegantly.



uzurpator said:


> 2x is 1x with a granny. On an average mountain ride you shift a total of six times maybe, when preparing for a major climb. Otherwise you stay on the big ring.


I believe you're saying "you" when you mean to say "I".
=sParty


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

TiGeo said:


> Yes, which WC pros are riding 2x? I can't imagine any at this point. What are "insane prices"? An Eagle GX complete group kit is $450 and 11 speed wide range applications are essentially a <$100 Sunrace cassette.


Mathias Fluckiger: "Usually I prefer a single ring....but on flat courses with steep uphills as well then I choose the double ring in the front"






The front ring shift is worth 3 rear shifts - great for steep uphills or a high speed entry to a momentum killing tight turn. This is one feature that the single ring evangelists would prefer didn't exist.

The best way to tell if an opinionated person doesn't know both sides of the issue is to observe if he can articulate the advantages for the opposing viewpoint. If he can't list even one, you can be sure he doesn't know what he's talking about.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Schulze said:


> Mathias Fluckiger: "Usually I prefer a single ring....but on flat courses with steep uphills as well then I choose the double ring in the front"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am very well versed in how a multi-ring set up works and used them for many years. I fully understand the issues surrounding single ring setups as well. We used to just jam/pull that left shifter to get the granny or the big ring to pound out at the top of a steep climb. I like my road bike's double for this reason...drop the front and grab 3 out back at the same time to maintain cadence and have room to get the granny...FDs are all about anticipating future shifts. For 1x, heavier cassettes that are more money. You loose the weight of the FD, front shifter, and chainrings so should be a wash. I use my left side for my dropper remote without having it interfere with a shifter. With Eagle I shift A LOT..click click click no doubt! This is in contrast to chain drops, mis-shifts, etc. that were common with the multi-ring set ups of yesteryear that I rode extensively. Shimano FDs shift very good nowadays and I have no issue either 1) using one or 2) working on/adjusting them. I like the newer 1x stuff...a lot..and am hardly a single ring evangelist..just a long time rider that likes the current single-ring systems. Many of these 1x vs. multi discussions occur between folks that have no real-world experience on the opposing viewpoint's system. I have spent time on both. Have you? Also, it's all good and folks will ride what they want obviously.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

I should have noted that the "evangelist" comment was not directed at you, TiGeo.

Yes, I had a 1x XT8000 on my main hard tail for about six months. Still have a couple Shimano 1x rings, but I put the 2x back on it. I've put 20 months of riding on the 2x on that bike, at least once a week, never dropped a chain or had to even adjust it. It just works.

A lot of guys started on 3x, which was mostly a 1x on the middle ring. The small ring was too small and the big ring was too big. Shimano 10t difference 2x and smooth shifting technology is a totally different animal. You can use it as a stand alone shift - no double shifting needed. 

It isn't heavier; it isn't more expensive; it isn't unreliable. Like Fluckinger said, it's nice to have on certain terrain.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

Man, let's wait for the NX Eagle to be released this week, so anyone can have a 12spd drivetrain 
The Sram 11-50 cassette is for the shimano hub I guess.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Schulze said:


> I should have noted that the "evangelist" comment was not directed at you, TiGeo.
> 
> Yes, I had a 1x XT8000 on my main hard tail for about six months. Still have a couple Shimano 1x rings, but I put the 2x back on it. I've put 20 months of riding on the 2x on that bike, at least once a week, never dropped a chain or had to even adjust it. It just works.
> 
> ...


I like your description of 3x as beting mostly 1x....that's exactly how I remember it. I kept it in the 32 middle and used the granny for the lowest 1-2 cogs and the big ring for the highest cogs...I actually used my big ring as much as possible when I had a triple. I also understand that the Shimano 2x systems are very good/smooth/error-free. The one big thing I notice about Eagle is that when you crest a hill and need to stand on it and accelerate you need to shift a lot and are often in too low a gear where the multi-ring setups allowed that one shift with the FD.


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## SADDLE TRAMP (Aug 26, 2010)

Memory lane...?

My '89 Fisher Paragon no longer has the FD, but still the 3X; hasn't moved off the middle ring in I don't know how long. Where I ride it...works fine for a seven speed.

BTW...it also still runs a shark fin.

Now for a updated bike and drivetrain!

Zero issues with the XT equipment.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Schulze said:


> Mathias Fluckiger: "Usually I prefer a single ring....but on flat courses with steep uphills as well then I choose the double ring in the front"


Well that is a Shimano ad so I view his comment with a bit of skepticism, it might be the truth but I'd be interested to know how often he actually lines up with 2 chainrings.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

https://outpostrichmond.com/blogs/news/why-i-admitted-defeat-and-finally-went-1x

My LBS...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> https://outpostrichmond.com/blogs/news/why-i-admitted-defeat-and-finally-went-1x





his LBS said:


> Using a gear inch calculation chart I determined that the range on my double was 20.65" on the low end and 100.35" on the high end. That's a big range. When you use the formula Sram uses to hype up the range of their "Eagle" 12-speed system it sounds even better. My old double gave me a range 719%! Sure that's far better than the 500% that a Sram Eagle cassette paired with a single ring gives? Right?


His double gave him 100.35/20.65=485% range. Not even close to 719%. This his entire diatribe is bunk.

I bet he enjoys his new bike tho.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uzurpator said:


> His double gave him 100.35/20.65=485% range. Not even close to 719%. This his entire diatribe is bunk.
> 
> I bet he enjoys his new bike tho.


Yeah I was wondering about that too, the Eagle drivetrain actually has a bit more range than his old 2x.


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## JohnMcL7 (Jul 26, 2013)

Overspeed said:


> When is di2 xtr 12speed being released?


I've not seen any mention of it at all, no prototype spy shots either.

John


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## JohnMcL7 (Jul 26, 2013)

Double post


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

TiGeo said:


> https://outpostrichmond.com/blogs/news/why-i-admitted-defeat-and-finally-went-1x
> 
> My LBS...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


"I was convinced that the 38/24 combination of chainrings was the perfect mate to the cassette cogs on my rear wheel that ranged from 11 to 34."

He's on 10 speed, and those front rings don't take advantage of rhythm gearing. He should have been on 38/28 or 36/26.

"Immediately I noticed how crisp and precise the shifting was."

Amazing. Replacing worn parts with new parts gives good performance.

"My old double gave me a range 719%! "

Math is hard.

"The real icing on the cake was not having to even think about the shift to lower gears. No quick decision to shift chainrings or not."

Such a mental burden lifted. How did he ever cope before?

I wonder if anyone has ever considered going to 1x pedal drive? It would help not having to think of which pedal to push. Just push the right one only. Much simpler. The left leg would then just rest the whole time. It was vestigial anyway.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Schulze said:


> I wonder if anyone has ever considered going to 1x pedal drive? It would help not having to think of which pedal to push. Just push the right one only. Much simpler. The left leg would then just rest the whole time. It was vestigial anyway.


I need at least 3 pedals.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Jayem said:


> I need at least 3 pedals.


His friends call him Tripod.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Jayem said:


> I need at least 3 pedals.


I want the whole flower.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Schulze said:


> "The real icing on the cake was not having to even think about the shift to lower gears. No quick decision to shift chainrings or not."
> 
> Such a mental burden lifted. How did he ever cope before?


That's something I don't understand either. Ok I know average IQ is going down, and days of average IQ being 100 are long gone, but even now when obviously average MTB rider has IQ of 40, it really shouldn't be so damn hard to change gears. I never got this "now cycling is fun as I don't need to constantly think which shifter to press to change gears". Really? It's really so hard for some to change goddamn gears? But then again, if someone's intelligence is on level of gold fish, then I assume 1x is perfect solution. Or as you wrote, even better... 1x pedal drive :cornut:


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

primoz said:


> it really shouldn't be so damn hard to change gears. I never got this "now cycling is fun as I don't need to constantly think which shifter to press to change gears". Really? It's really so hard for some to change goddamn gears?


I've never heard anyone complain about this. Only about how miserably FDs work.
=sParty


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> I've never heard anyone complain about this. Only about how miserably FDs work.
> =sParty


Guy who Schulze quoted was relived because he doesn't need to think anymore how to change gears. For rest, I really don't feel like searching forum to provide that, but any 1x vs. 2x thread will do to find out one of main reasons for 1x is "no need to think and worry anymore how to change gears".


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

smoothmoose said:


> The group looks sick. But it feel too little too late - especially since they don't have an answer for GX Eagle with XT and/or SLX groupo. Too much leap of faith for both OEMs and consumers to swap out everything for yet another standard.


I think SRAM left the door open with their crappy brakes.

I've got bikes with Code RSC, Code R, and Guide R, and have found none of them to be stellar. Despite solid performance from X01 and GX drivetrains on the three bikes, my next rig (an XC race bike in a year or two) will most definitely be full XTR, preferably Di2.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Sparticus said:


> I've never heard anyone complain about this. Only about how miserably FDs work.
> =sParty


Here's the latest iteration I'm aware of. Slightly amusing.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

If you worked in a shop during the FD hayday (1990s) you will have been aware that yes, the FD was a very confusing bit of gear and I spent lots of time during bike sales explaining it "Yes, you have 8 gears in each of these 3 rings...no...not 24 gears....8 gears..yes...you see lots of them overlap....you'll figure it out" and the ever-classic "Why is my chain rubbing this thing in the front? Because you shouldn't use that ratio in your granny...huh?". The 1x stuff is much easier for sure for your average so-and-so mtber like it or not.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

EricTheDood said:


> I think SRAM left the door open with their crappy brakes.
> 
> I've got bikes with Code RSC, Code R, and Guide R, and have found none of them to be stellar. Despite solid performance from X01 and GX drivetrains on the three bikes, my next rig (an XC race bike in a year or two) will most definitely be full XTR, preferably Di2.


Brake war! Newest bike has Guide RSCs...they are far and away superior in every way to my old bike's XTs.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

SRAM brakes are great for the 2 weeks between warranty recalls that they actually work.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

noapathy said:


> Here's the latest iteration I'm aware of. Slightly amusing.


Train wrecks are often entertaining tho in the end they're still train wrecks. There went 20 minutes I'll never get back. 

Perhaps the worst of it is knowing that a few months ago I defended Mr. Pig's advice in another thread. His outrageous attack on the girlfriend, American drivers and everyone with the common sense to employ a 1x drivetrain was completely over the top. Lazy? Come ride mountain bikes with me, Pig. I dare you. Meanwhile I'm slowly backing away...
=sParty


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## Hesher123 (Jul 31, 2011)

Nice, being a fan of Shimano I am looking forward to trying this... I didn't like SRAM GX 11sp or Eagle so this is a nice option in the future when the XT version hits the market.

Until then my perfect combo is SLX brakes, XTR rotors, XTR Shifter, XT derailleur, SRAM XG-1195 Cassette with a KMC chain + RF Next SL Cranks and DT Swiss 240 hubs <--- not that anyone asked


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

TiGeo said:


> Brake war! Newest bike has Guide RSCs...they are far and away superior in every way to my old bike's XTs.


I have no experience with hige end Shimano brakes, but my Guide RCSs brakes work really great for almost a year now.
I pretty pleased with them, but kind of want to try the new Formula Cura 4.


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## JohnMcL7 (Jul 26, 2013)

What is the point of the single lever shifter for the front derailleur? I was thinking it might be to allow a dropper controller to be integrated into it but I don't think that's the case.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

JohnMcL7 said:


> What is the point of the single lever shifter for the front derailleur? I was thinking it might be to allow a dropper controller to be integrated into it but I don't think that's the case.


That is just a dropper lever. There is no front defailure option with Shimano's 12 speed group.
=sParty


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## mfa81 (Apr 1, 2011)

JohnMcL7 said:


> What is the point of the single lever shifter for the front derailleur? I was thinking it might be to allow a dropper controller to be integrated into it but I don't think that's the case.





Sparticus said:


> That is just a dropper lever. There is no front defailure option with Shimano's 12 speed group.
> =sParty


yes there is a 2x12 option, and there is a single lever shifter, I guess the reason is why not? you don't really need two levers, but it would definitely be nice to have a dropper integrated lever for those running 2x systems


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Sparticus said:


> That is just a dropper lever. There is no front defailure option with Shimano's 12 speed group.
> =sParty


Actually there is a single lever front shifter, and it looks like a really cool idea. Too bad I will never have a use for it, hell I may never even see one. It will be one of those rare little genius solutions to an extinct problem.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

mfa81 said:


> yes there is a 2x12 option





Velodonata said:


> Actually there is a single lever front shifter


Damn, I knew that. Total brain fart on my part. Guess I just wanted to say the words, "front defailure."
=sParty


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## JohnMcL7 (Jul 26, 2013)

Sparticus said:


> That is just a dropper lever. There is no front defailure option with Shimano's 12 speed group.
> =sParty


It's a shifter not a dropper lever and there is a front derailleur option - you can see the single shifter above the dropper lever here:

https://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/...ce-weight-details-micro-spline-freehub-52337/

It does mention it's to make it easier to run a dropper but it doesn't look like the two parts really go together as I was thinking it makes to offer a way to combine them since I do find the dropper lever a bit of a pain with the front shifter as I get them mixed up when switching between 1x and 2x.

John


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Velodonata said:


> Actually there is a single lever front shifter, and it looks like a really cool idea. Too bad I will never have a use for it, hell I may never even see one. It will be one of those rare little genius solutions to an extinct problem.


lol, these 1x disciples have the rhetoric down pat. Many of us won't buy a bike that isn't 2x compatible.

I put the dropper lever on the right side above the bars.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

I would consider this new XTR if there was a tightly packed 11-36 cassette. Possibly with 1-tooth differences at the top range. Like this:

10-11-12-13-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-36

One can dream.


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

uzurpator said:


> I would consider this new XTR if there was a tightly packed 11-36 cassette. Possibly with 1-tooth differences at the top range. Like this:
> 
> 10-11-12-13-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-36
> 
> One can dream.


Why on earth would you want that on a MTB?


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## JohnMcL7 (Jul 26, 2013)

Schulze said:


> lol, these 1x disciples have the rhetoric down pat. Many of us won't buy a bike that isn't 2x compatible.
> 
> I put the dropper lever on the right side above the bars.


After getting the Stache which can't take a front derailleur I did wonder if I'd understand the 1x hype but I accept I just never will now as if I had the choice I'd change the Stache to 2x. The one advantage is the dropper post lever can sit on its own which is why I was thinking it would make sense for Shimano to redesign the front lever to work with one and it seems that is intention so will see how it works in practice.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

GRPABT1 said:


> Why on earth would you want that on a MTB?


I'd happily run that on a light 29er hardtail. I tried running a 30t front ring on my Pivot FS XC bike with a 10-42 rear cassette, but the gearing was too low and I was never using the easiest gears, so I went up to a 32. With the improved response and efficiency of a hardtail, I'd push the 10-36 just fine. I'd rather have it than some giant pie-plate cassette. 11-36 was a bit challenging when I ran it on my RFX for the first year, not impossible by any means, but people are just way too convinced they need crazy easy gears when it's the exact same energy expenditure. I've found that you can adapt to new gearing in a couple of a weeks and be doing 95% of what you did before, the other 5% comes in another few weeks.

Again, I'd say that's a little on the hard side for a heavier FS bike, but perfect for a light racing hardtail.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

I agree.
On my hardtail I have a 1x9sp drivetrain with a 32T chainring and a 11-36 cassette.
This range is enough for pretty much everything.

But I still love my 10-50 Eagle cassette. I run it with a 36T chainring.
It's perfect for for high speeds on flat grounds or downhill and I can climb everything thanks to the 50T gear.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

GRPABT1 said:


> Why on earth would you want that on a MTB?


Because most people, myself included, would benefit from tightly packed high gears and barely benefit from tightly packed low gears. Especially on 1xX.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

No m9100 Di2 news? m9150 maybe? Happy with my Eagle but I’m very interested in that Hyperglide+ with shifting under power. The brakes look much improved, and even they came to their senses with a direct mount chainring. Looks like a good group set.


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## JohnMcL7 (Jul 26, 2013)

farfromovin said:


> No m9100 Di2 news? m9150 maybe? Happy with my Eagle but I'm very interested in that Hyperglide+ with shifting under power. The brakes look much improved, and even they came to their senses with a direct mount chainring. Looks like a good group set.


No news yet, Shimano were apparently wanting to focus on the mechanical groupset first and the Di2 after. There's nothing official but the speculation is late 2018/early 2019 for Di2.

John


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

uzurpator said:


> Because most people, myself included, would benefit from tightly packed high gears and barely benefit from tightly packed low gears. Especially on 1xX.


Having tried many custom gear combinations, I do agree with that approach in general, although I do like wider ratios than you. For my last trip to the mountains I did an 11-42 with 9-cogs:

11-12-14-17-20-24-29-35-42

Used my old General Lee adapter for the largest 3 cogs. I've not seen a 29t or 35t cog outside of that. Never seen a 31t ever. Anyway, the low-end cassettes off Ebay usually break down to individual cogs (other than the 2 biggest), so it is possible to build what you want, or something close to it. Although individual cogs do require a steel (or titanium) freehub unless you are light.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm assuming that a 12-speed XTR shifter and derailleur would work with a 12-speed SRAM cassette, right?


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

jabrabu said:


> I'm assuming that a 12-speed XTR shifter and derailleur would work with a 12-speed SRAM cassette, right?


It seems that way, from what I have seen the spacing is very similar and they should be effectively interchangeable. Although the shifting of the Hyperglide+ Shimano cassettes is distinctly superior, based on every early ride impression out there.


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## Velorangutan (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm also curious to confirm if XTR will work with a SRAM Eagle cassette.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

Velodonata said:


> It seems that way, from what I have seen the spacing is very similar and they should be effectively interchangeable. Although the shifting of the Hyperglide+ Shimano cassettes is distinctly superior, based on every early ride impression out there.


Yes, I think the Shimano cassette would shift better, but I could use a SRAM cassette with my existing hubs and XD driver.

I am currently using XX1 11-speed with a twist shifter. I like Shimano trigger shifters, but I don't care for SRAM triggers, which is why I'm using the twist shifter. To get more range I recently installed a Garbaruk 11-speed cassette, 10-48. It shifts okay, but not quite as good as the XX1 cassette. I think a nice upgrade for me would be an XTR 12-speed shifter and derailleur with a 12-speed SRAM cassette. This would give me the 10-50 range, the Shimano trigger, and I keep my Industry 9 hubs.


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## mfa81 (Apr 1, 2011)

Velorangutan said:


> I'm also curious to confirm if XTR will work with a SRAM Eagle cassette.


we probably won't know if and how well until people get a hold of the new stuff from shimano


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Velodonata said:


> Although the shifting of the Hyperglide+ Shimano cassettes is distinctly superior, based on every early ride impression out there.


This kind of BS is what's wrong with the industry. Yeah, some incremental upgrade might be a little better, maybe not, but it's not like the 2000s when you went to put your QR wheel back in your bike and the shifting was F-ed up every time, you'd have to regularly use the barrel adjuster. Hell, remember derailleurs had barrel adjusters?

This kind of overblown BS to convince people their current bikes do not work should be called out. Yes, there are some places where there are significant improvements to be made or where if you spend a bunch of money, you get a significant increase in performance, but there's no way shimano is making stuff shift so much better as to make it a reason to go out and buy. Not given how much better the current stuff is from years past. Incremental improvements should be called out for what they are. They are not revolutionary.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Jayem said:


> This kind of BS is what's wrong with the industry. Yeah, some incremental upgrade might be a little better, maybe not, but it's not like the 2000s when you went to put your QR wheel back in your bike and the shifting was F-ed up every time, you'd have to regularly use the barrel adjuster. Hell, remember derailleurs had barrel adjusters?
> 
> This kind of overblown BS to convince people their current bikes do not work should be called out. Yes, there are some places where there are significant improvements to be made or where if you spend a bunch of money, you get a significant increase in performance, but there's no way shimano is making stuff shift so much better as to make it a reason to go out and buy. Not given how much better the current stuff is from years past. Incremental improvements should be called out for what they are. They are not revolutionary.


Does that include Eagle's need to resync? I think if Shimano's 12 speed doesn't need the band aid of wide narrow 2 larger cogs and shifts well under load it is an improvement.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Jayem said:


> This kind of BS is what's wrong with the industry. Yeah, some incremental upgrade might be a little better, maybe not, but it's not like the 2000s when you went to put your QR wheel back in your bike and the shifting was F-ed up every time, you'd have to regularly use the barrel adjuster. Hell, remember derailleurs had barrel adjusters?
> 
> This kind of overblown BS to convince people their current bikes do not work should be called out. Yes, there are some places where there are significant improvements to be made or where if you spend a bunch of money, you get a significant increase in performance, but there's no way shimano is making stuff shift so much better as to make it a reason to go out and buy. Not given how much better the current stuff is from years past. Incremental improvements should be called out for what they are. They are not revolutionary.


Dude, relax. Nobody said anything about revolutionary but you. My words were "distinctly superior", which I fully expect it to be. Distinctly, as in, "in a way that is readily distinguishable by the senses; clearly." or, maybe even "in a way that is very noticeable or apparent; decidedly." Me, I am hoping for the latter. And from the way you keep jumping in to crap on Shimano and prop up SRAM, it's starting to feel like you would prefer to put the brakes on drivetrain improvements if they come in a black and silver box. And please man, speak for yourself, my bikes and plenty others have been running tight and long with barely a breath on the barrel adjusters since well before the 2000s. Once I binned the X-Rays and got my first pair of Rapidfires, that is.

You can call me a Shimano fanboy if you like, but on my primary bike I am currently running an X01 cassette on an Onyx hub that I specifically ordered with an XD driver. And an Eagle chain. Most everything else is XTR, with a sprinkle of Wolf Tooth. Because I like to use what I consider to be the best available parts. And while I think the XD driver is ill-conceived, it's also the only reasonable way to get the lightest and widest range cassettes on a bike right now. And it shifts pretty darn good. But it ain't without room for improvement. Now we have the potential to make several meaningful upgrades with the new XTR. Shimano has the track record to give them the benefit of the doubt, and of the many early hands on actual riding reports, every single one has noted the excellent shifting of the new Hyperglide+, up and down the cassette, even under power. I know there can be a fair amount of shillery in MTB journalism, but this kind of consensus generally stands up. I will be happy to spend my money to find out.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TwoTone said:


> Does that include Eagle's need to resync? I think if Shimano's 12 speed doesn't need the band aid of wide narrow 2 larger cogs and shifts well under load it is an improvement.


I don't see droves and droves of people having any issue with resyncing, I do see Eagle in general as the same thing, an incremental upgrade over 1x11 that didn't need all the hype and "you need to upgrade" BS. Just make 1x11 a little bigger on the low end and that would suite 98% of people I'm sure. They got people convinced they are "spinning out" all the time, and then of course they go and still buy a 28t front ring and negate the entire gearing advantage. If they made a 26 front and 10-60t cassette people would be frothing at the mouth to get it.

Again, people aren't complaining in droves about Eagle syncing, lots and lots of people are running it and they love it. Shifting with SRAM 1x11 and 1x12 systems is great, it's insane how much better it is than 15 years ago.

Is there anything revolutionary here? No, just some incremental upgrades to shimano's offerings. Some of it is finally realizing that 1x systems are here to stay and making some serious efforts in that area.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Jayem said:


> They got people convinced they are "spinning out" all the time, and then of course they go and still buy a 28t front ring and negate the entire gearing advantage. If they made a 26 front and 10-60t cassette people would be frothing at the mouth to get it.


LOL. Who are these people? You might look into finding some better people.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

TwoTone said:


> Does that include Eagle's need to resync? I think if Shimano's 12 speed doesn't need the band aid of wide narrow 2 larger cogs and shifts well under load it is an improvement.


+657!


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Jayem said:


> I don't see droves and droves of people having any issue with resyncing, I do see Eagle in general as the same thing, an incremental upgrade over 1x11 that didn't need all the hype and "you need to upgrade" BS. Just make 1x11 a little bigger on the low end and that would suite 98% of people I'm sure. They got people convinced they are "spinning out" all the time, and then of course they go and still buy a 28t front ring and negate the entire gearing advantage. If they made a 26 front and 10-60t cassette people would be frothing at the mouth to get it.
> 
> Again, people aren't complaining in droves about Eagle syncing, lots and lots of people are running it and they love it. Shifting with SRAM 1x11 and 1x12 systems is great, it's insane how much better it is than 15 years ago.
> 
> Is there anything revolutionary here? No, just some incremental upgrades to shimano's offerings. Some of it is finally realizing that 1x systems are here to stay and making some serious efforts in that area.


Just because people accept it doesn't mean I consider it acceptable. The resync is a fact, there is no way someone is riding around and it always shifts into those 2 cogs perfectly.

Everyone accepted that crap because ohh new shiny.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

GuitsBoy said:


> Cant wait to fold one of those cassettes into a taco. I've already bent 10 and 11 speed XT, and I cant see this being any stronger. Also, claiming it's 10% wider range is a bit misleading. Its only 2% wider as compared to eagle. And introducing new standards for both freehubs and presumably direct mount chainrings, uggh.
> 
> I know SRAM stuff certainly isnt perfect. Some of it is so heavy its downright piggish. But I'm pretty underwhelmed by this new shimano stuff. But who knows, maybe they made those cassettes out of pure unobtanium than wont fold faster than superman on laundry day.


One thing I don't understand is why they would have aluminum for the largest cogs and steel for the smallest cogs (they have titanium for the middle cogs). If steel is roughly 5x as strong as aluminum, shouldn't they have steel for the largest cogs, because they take the most torque? And then they can get away with aluminum for the smallest few cogs, because you are basically maintaining speed and not standing up on the pedals on the top end anyway.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> One thing I don't understand is why they would have aluminum for the largest cogs and steel for the smallest cogs (they have titanium for the middle cogs). If steel is roughly 5x as strong as aluminum, shouldn't they have steel for the largest cogs, because they take the most torque? And then they can get away with aluminum for the smallest few cogs, because you are basically maintaining speed and not standing up on the pedals on the top end anyway.


Large cogs have more teeth to distribute the load, small cogs wear more quickly (per mile) because only a few teeth are engaged at a time. They use aluminum on the large cogs because the weight savings are significant there.


----------



## alexdi (Jun 25, 2016)

richj8990 said:


> One thing I don't understand is why they would have aluminum for the largest cogs and steel for the smallest cogs (they have titanium for the middle cogs). If steel is roughly 5x as strong as aluminum, shouldn't they have steel for the largest cogs, because they take the most torque?


Every sprocket takes the same pedal torque. The bigger ones have more teeth to distribute it, so they can get away with weaker materials.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

richj8990 said:


> One thing I don't understand is why they would have aluminum for the largest cogs and steel for the smallest cogs (they have titanium for the middle cogs). If steel is roughly 5x as strong as aluminum, shouldn't they have steel for the largest cogs, because they take the most torque? And then they can get away with aluminum for the smallest few cogs, because you are basically maintaining speed and not standing up on the pedals on the top end anyway.


A 10 tooth will wear at a rate 5 times the 50 tooth. Plus you don't save much weight on the small end of the cassette.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

JohnMcL7 said:


> No news yet, Shimano were apparently wanting to focus on the mechanical groupset first and the Di2 after. There's nothing official but the speculation is late 2018/early 2019 for Di2.
> 
> John


What do you guys think the chances are that Di2 12 speed will be as simple as re-flashing current Di2 electronics?


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

BlownCivic said:


> What do you guys think the chances are that Di2 12 speed will be as simple as re-flashing current Di2 electronics?


In my deepest darkest dreams, I hope it is zero chance, because I really want M9150 to be wireless. But I wouldn't suggest holding your breath for either.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Velodonata said:


> In my deepest darkest dreams, I hope it is zero chance, because I really want M9150 to be wireless. But I wouldn't suggest holding your breath for either.


Chances are that 12 speed E-Tap will be out for 4-5 tears before Shimano starts to think about doing wireless Di2.......


----------



## IPA Rider (Aug 24, 2008)

For those just tuning in...let me summarize:

"Shimano rules...SRAM sucks!"

"No, SRAM rules, Shimano sucks!"


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

tom erb said:


> Chances are that 12 speed E-Tap will be out for 4-5 tears before Shimano starts to think about doing wireless Di2.......


Hope they don't go wireless. Rather have one battery that lasts longer.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

TwoTone said:


> Hope they don't go wireless. Rather have one battery that lasts longer.


I get that, battery life doesn't seem to be a problem for Di2, and only having to worry about one battery is nice. Easy charging and one less thing to forget/go wrong. But that bigger battery needs a home and from my very tiny little bit of experience working with Di2 on a road bike, the wiring can be a hassle. I also have been running the wireless Archer system for long enough now that I would be reluctant to give up wireless at this point. It's nice not having to even think about shifter cables or wires, it's been 100% trouble free, and the battery life is good enough that it's convinced me this is a compromise I can easily live with. And this is a system that does not make battery charging particularly quick and easy. The shifter battery lasts a very long time, and the servo is not bad either. I feel like wireless is inevitable, wherever we come down on the issue. So I am hoping sooner rather than later, and I expect that the M9100 stuff will work just fine with the Archer system in the meantime.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Velodonata said:


> I get that, battery life doesn't seem to be a problem for Di2, and only having to worry about one battery is nice. Easy charging and one less thing to forget/go wrong. But that bigger battery needs a home and from my very tiny little bit of experience working with Di2 on a road bike, the wiring can be a hassle. I also have been running the wireless Archer system for long enough now that I would be reluctant to give up wireless at this point. It's nice not having to even think about shifter cables or wires, it's been 100% trouble free, and the battery life is good enough that it's convinced me this is a compromise I can easily live with. And this is a system that does not make battery charging particularly quick and easy. The shifter battery lasts a very long time, and the servo is not bad either. I feel like wireless is inevitable, wherever we come down on the issue. So I am hoping sooner rather than later, and I expect that the M9100 stuff will work just fine with the Archer system in the meantime.


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Velodonata said:


> I get that, battery life doesn't seem to be a problem for Di2, and only having to worry about one battery is nice. Easy charging and one less thing to forget/go wrong. But that bigger battery needs a home and from my very tiny little bit of experience working with Di2 on a road bike, the wiring can be a hassle. I also have been running the wireless Archer system for long enough now that I would be reluctant to give up wireless at this point. It's nice not having to even think about shifter cables or wires, it's been 100% trouble free, and the battery life is good enough that it's convinced me this is a compromise I can easily live with. And this is a system that does not make battery charging particularly quick and easy. The shifter battery lasts a very long time, and the servo is not bad either. I feel like wireless is inevitable, wherever we come down on the issue. So I am hoping sooner rather than later, and I expect that the M9100 stuff will work just fine with the Archer system in the meantime.


Glad it's been trouble free for you, but we all have BT items and we all know how finicky BT can be- no thinks.
I didn't think DI2 was that big of a deal to route wires.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

TwoTone said:


> Glad it's been trouble free for you, but we all have BT items and we all know how finicky BT can be- no thinks.
> I didn't think DI2 was that big of a deal to route wires.


Yes, Bluetooth can suck and I was also concerned about the wireless connections being glitchy. The connection between the Archer system and the phone app works great for setup and tuning, as well as any other device I have ever paired my phone with. But the really impressive thing is how absolutely flawless and rock solid the connection between the shifter remote and the servo has been. It pair quickly and seamlessly every time, it is a simple automatic action that requires very little of the rider. So I have become a believer through hands on experience that there should be no barrier to wireless when it can work this good for a first effort from a new vendor.

Yes, it's not too much to ask to run cables but I certainly don't miss them, and Di2 remains unnecessarily complex for my needs. Pared down to only needing a shifter, battery and derailleur without any extra junctions it still seems like too much now that I have used a good wireless setup. If SRAM gets Eagle eTap right it will further prove this and make wired Di2 an anachronism.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

TwoTone said:


> Just because people accept it doesn't mean I consider it acceptable. The resync is a fact, there is no way someone is riding around and it always shifts into those 2 cogs perfectly.
> 
> Everyone accepted that crap because ohh new shiny.


It absolutely is real and must happen to everyone running Eagle at some point but it's honestly not a big deal and doesn't make it "crap" - I agree that if Shimano sorted out this issue that is in their favor but at this point they are so late to this show and need the time to make a <$500 12 speed group which will take them several years. Shimano dropped the ball big time on embracing wide-range 1x and that is a fact, narrow/wide 48 and 50 cogs or not.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> It absolutely is real and must happen to everyone running Eagle at some point but it's honestly not a big deal and doesn't make it "crap" - I agree that if Shimano sorted out this issue that is in their favor but at this point they are so late to this show and need the time to make a <$500 12 speed group which will take them several years. Shimano dropped the ball big time on embracing wide-range 1x and that is a fact, narrow/wide 48 and 50 cogs or not.


It's all personal preference. As I've stated before I'll take the engineering over the bandaid any time. It may not be crap but it was the quick easy solution to get it out the door first. That's Sram's mentality and you know it's not Shimano's. If that's what you want, go for it. It's not what I reward with my cash.


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## JohnMcL7 (Jul 26, 2013)

TwoTone said:


> Glad it's been trouble free for you, but we all have BT items and we all know how finicky BT can be- no thinks.
> I didn't think DI2 was that big of a deal to route wires.


BT is a fundamentally different technology because it's a standard that has to work with a very diverse range of devices whereas Shimano would be free to implement their own entirely proprietary wireless communication for a Di2 setup with a BT/Ant setup to allow other devices to read out data.

I think offering a wireless Di2 MTB option would make a lot of sense particularly if they made it 1x only where the complexity of the wired Di2 setup seems overkill for just a single shifter and derailleur. They could potentially make a simpler setup cheaper and they could beat Sram to market as well.

I've looked at wiring my Stache for Di2 and it's quite a pain because it doesn't have any routing for it, I've seen someone who has done the conversion here but it's fairly messy as the cables don't fit in the internal routing channels and the battery doesn't mount anywhere conveniently either. I'd certainly be tempted if there was a wireless di2 option as not only would it be easier to install on the current bike but also much easier if I wanted to move it to another.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Large cogs have more teeth to distribute the load, small cogs wear more quickly (per mile) because only a few teeth are engaged at a time. They use aluminum on the large cogs because the weight savings are significant there.


This is helpful, because I'm doing an 11-40t cassette, and when the middle cogs wear out, I have a few smaller cassettes lying around and can simply add the 40t to them and turn them into 11-40t


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## Seventh-777 (Aug 30, 2013)

Really looking forward to this, especially if I can just swap the freehub body on my DT Swiss hubs. 

Any word on a price on XTR vs XT? Google gives me a billion reviews but no solid pricing yet.


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## Velorangutan (Aug 28, 2012)

Pricing is slightly less than SRAM XX1


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

TiGeo said:


> It absolutely is real and must happen to everyone running Eagle at some point but it's honestly not a big deal and doesn't make it "crap" - I agree that if Shimano sorted out this issue that is in their favor but at this point they are so late to this show and need the time to make a <$500 12 speed group which will take them several years. Shimano dropped the ball big time on embracing wide-range 1x and that is a fact, narrow/wide 48 and 50 cogs or not.


This^^^


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## Alpenglow (Feb 5, 2004)

Anyone know when the DT Swiss microspline freehub will be available for purchase? Thanks


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

IMHO the 12 is dead.
Sunrace 11-50 is really tough to beat. 11 speeds so less $$ and plenty.
I love their 10 speeds 11-42.
I will buy my next bike for their 11/11-50, period.
Shimano is too late, some big head should have lost their job for being asleep.


----------



## Velorangutan (Aug 28, 2012)

I got to pedal this around the parking lot the other day. It felt great like you'd expect from Shimano. The brakes have a little better modulation than years past which, to me, had an on/off feeling.

The Shimano Rep stated that this XTR was designed intentionally to not be compatible with exisiting 12spd systems.

So you have to use XTR cassette, and crankset.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Schulze said:


> lol, these 1x disciples have the rhetoric down pat. Many of us won't buy a bike that isn't 2x compatible.
> 
> I put the dropper lever on the right side above the bars.


I've been enjoying my 1x bike, but my fat bike has 2x and a dropper and works just fine. I just moved the shifter inboard. It's not like I have to get to my front shifter in a hurry; I probably shift it twice per ride.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

The 1 X was made for racers.
I am not a racer.
They cut weight $$
They add weight $$ dropper
well some love their toys,
at least sailboats are over 200,000 so 10,000 is just change


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## Alpenglow (Feb 5, 2004)

Alpenglow said:


> Anyone know when the DT Swiss microspline freehub will be available for purchase? Thanks


I PM'd DT Swiss on FB and they said sometime this fall. No firm release date yet. Hope it coincides with availability of the new XTR.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Alpenglow said:


> I PM'd DT Swiss on FB and they said sometime this fall. No firm release date yet. Hope it coincides with availability of the new XTR.


I'm willing to bet a new XTR group that it does. 
=sParty


----------



## mfa81 (Apr 1, 2011)

what's the difference between m9120 and m9100 sgs rd? seems like both are long cage rd but for some reason shimano says 9120 is only 10-45 compatible? why even have the 9120 instead of just only a med and long cage rd?

did they just put a 20 and called "enduro" version?


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Might be something to do with 2x/1x versions.


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

You will notice the difference if you look at them. m9100 is more like Sram Eagle, vs m9120 is more like a traditional slant derailleur. Different position of the pivots.


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## Alpenglow (Feb 5, 2004)

Anyone heard of availability dates? Thanks.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

Furthermore, anyone have any clue if/when Shimano will allow other manufacturers besides DT to make a MicroSpline freehub? Shimano 12 looks awesome, but I have multiple I9 Torch wheelsets and I'm not about to re-hub them all....

Honestly restricting the hub standard to DT seems really dumb to me, you'd think with a new standard they'd want to encourage the widest adoption possible. There are a lot of folks in the XTR target demographic on I9, King, Hope etc.


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## mfa81 (Apr 1, 2011)

uzurpator said:


> Might be something to do with 2x/1x versions.





Jan said:


> You will notice the difference if you look at them. m9100 is more like Sram Eagle, vs m9120 is more like a traditional slant derailleur. Different position of the pivots.


yes, looks like 9120 is a 2x and 45T max, I just don't understand why we can't use this as a 1x 51T, maybe all that's matter isn't just the gear range and there are some other detail


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

33red said:


> The 1 X was made for racers.
> I am not a racer.
> They cut weight $$
> They add weight $$ dropper
> ...


Pass the bong bro...



DrewBird said:


> Furthermore, anyone have any clue if/when Shimano will allow other manufacturers besides DT to make a MicroSpline freehub? Shimano 12 looks awesome, but I have multiple I9 Torch wheelsets and I'm not about to re-hub them all....
> .


Of course they will. They let DT have it first because of their massive oem sales. Shimano can't sell this group to the oem channel if the bike companies can't buy wheels that work with it.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Jayem said:


> This kind of BS is what's wrong with the industry. Yeah, some incremental upgrade might be a little better, maybe not, but it's not like the 2000s when you went to put your QR wheel back in your bike and the shifting was F-ed up every time, you'd have to regularly use the barrel adjuster. Hell, remember derailleurs had barrel adjusters?
> 
> This kind of overblown BS to convince people their current bikes do not work should be called out. Yes, there are some places where there are significant improvements to be made or where if you spend a bunch of money, you get a significant increase in performance, but there's no way shimano is making stuff shift so much better as to make it a reason to go out and buy. Not given how much better the current stuff is from years past. Incremental improvements should be called out for what they are. They are not revolutionary.


Uh...I hear you man, in principle. But last night I put on a Shimano cassette, put on the QR wheel, and had to adjust the barrel. And this is 2018. lol.

I've read posts from certain Super Moderators that 10/11/12 speeds are more difficult to tune and maintain than 7/8/9, is that BS? Are you saying that you can take an 11 speed wheel off, change the cassette, put it on the bike again and it's 100% guaranteed to shift perfectly with no rear derailleur adjustments? It's an honest question, not trying to be sarcastic.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

RAKC Ind said:


> I'm 275lbs and can mash in things fairly hard NEVER damaged a sunrace cassette and have 2 on 2 different bikes. Many, many people ride sunrace with no problems. If your going to cause a sunrace cassette to fail Shimano and sram will fail as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


OK now I know why he destroyed his Suntour Raidon fork in a few months. He's 275 lbs and he mashes things fairly hard. They should have a disclaimer in their XC fork warranty "Void if you weigh 275 lbs and mash things fairly hard".

But if it's any consolation I like Sunrace cassettes too.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> I've read posts from certain Super Moderators that 10/11/12 speeds are more difficult to tune and maintain than 7/8/9, is that BS? Are you saying that you can take an 11 speed wheel off, change the cassette, put it on the bike again and it's 100% guaranteed to shift perfectly with no rear derailleur adjustments? It's an honest question, not trying to be sarcastic.


I've worked on more 7/8/9 speed drivetrains than I care to admit, 1,000's of them for sure. The 10 speed I use now is no harder to adjust than any of them, easier actually because the components are more refined. I just replace my derailleur cable and realized I hadn't touched my barrel adjuster since I had first installed it about 4,000 miles ago. Setup adjustment for the new cable took about 20 seconds and I don't expect I'll be touching the barrel adjuster again until I change it again next time in a few years.

I haven't messed with 11 speed much but the little I have it doesn't seem any more temperamental. Don't know about 12 sp.

*you can change 10 speed cassettes without any adjustments, I'm sure you could with 11 too.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

richj8990 said:


> Uh...I hear you man, in principle. But last night I put on a Shimano cassette, put on the QR wheel, and had to adjust the barrel. And this is 2018. lol.
> 
> I've read posts from certain Super Moderators that 10/11/12 speeds are more difficult to tune and maintain than 7/8/9, is that BS? Are you saying that you can take an 11 speed wheel off, change the cassette, put it on the bike again and it's 100% guaranteed to shift perfectly with no rear derailleur adjustments? It's an honest question, not trying to be sarcastic.


Actually, yes, I have two rear wheels for my XC bike, DT240 and DT190 hubs, I can switch the cassette over and use either wheel and it's all adjusted perfectly, I don't have to adjust the barrel adjuster at all.

On my fatbike, my two rear wheels use different brand hubs and totally different drivers, so by nature they are spaced out a bit, but after making the initial adjustment, I can change the (same) rear wheel 100 times and not have to make any barrel adjustments. It's a thing of the past for the most part, like back when we were rocking 9 speed and having to adjust the damn things every time we took the wheel out.

Derailleurs, mounts, axles and the sort are WAY stiffer these days and they simply don't "wander" in and out of tune. Not only that, but they "tuck under" the chainstay really well too and don't stick out like the old ones, which helps even more. The clutch that keeps tension on the chain keeps it from wandering in real muddy nasty conditions, so I can have perfect shifting and the bike stays in gear, even on 100 mile super-nasty mud-fest endurance races. Things really are much better. I haven't "upgraded" to 12 speed simply because there's nothing it would do for me, but 11 is a huge improvement from the 10 and 9 speed drivetrains for me.

In the summer time I run a 1x10 setup on my fatbike with a road cassette for commuting. The 1x10 action is pretty crappy by comparison.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

jabrabu said:


> I'm assuming that a 12-speed XTR shifter and derailleur would work with a 12-speed SRAM cassette, right?


As posted in another thread, I am more interested in if a SRAM Eagle Shifter and Derailleuer will work with the 51t XTR Cassette/freehub.


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## YamaLink (Jun 23, 2010)

My M9100 shifter and SGS derailleur are on the way. Will try with X01 Eagle cassette (that's currently matched with GX Eagle derailleur and X01 shifter). My other bikes have SRAM 11 cassette with Shimano shifter/derailleur. Sometimes SRAM chains, sometimes KMC. Perfect shifting. Probably 14 days til install. Will report back, of course.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

YamaLink said:


> My M9100 shifter and SGS derailleur are on the way. Will try with X01 Eagle cassette (that's currently matched with GX Eagle derailleur and X01 shifter). My other bikes have SRAM 11 cassette with Shimano shifter/derailleur. Sometimes SRAM chains, sometimes KMC. Perfect shifting. Probably 14 days til install. Will report back, of course.


Plan to follow you down that exact route, if reports of this hybrid approach are good.

Though I would also love to get rid of SRAM's narrow wide cogs at the top of the Eagle cassette. Likely not worth the coin to swap drivers.

Planned for next spring, at drivetrain "refresh" time.


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## motard5 (Apr 9, 2007)

Anyone have feedback on the new PD-M9120 Trail pedals or the SL-MT800-L dropper post lever? 




> PART NUMBER	SHIMANO M9100 XTR DESC	MSRP	WEIGHT
> BRAKES
> BL-M9100	XC BRAKE LEVER SET	$207.98
> BL-M9120	ENDURO BRAKE LEVER SET	$213.98
> ...


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

motard5 said:


> Anyone have feedback on the new PD-M9120 Trail pedals or the SL-MT800-L dropper post lever?


No I don't but I really like the SM-CD800 CHAIN DEVICE. At $49.99, it's a good value


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Dirtrider127 said:


> No I don't but I really like the SM-CD800 CHAIN DEVICE. At $49.99, it's a good value


So do you bash One Up or any of the multitude of companies that charge the same rate for the same item- or just Shimano.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Dirtrider127 said:


> No I don't but I really like the SM-CD800 CHAIN DEVICE. At $49.99, it's a good value


XTR isnt a good value, it hasnt been in the past and it wont be in the future. Its not supposed to be. Its XTR.

Im going all in on 12s SLX. Hubs and all. If shimano can make ~40pt hubs that dont break, I found a hub for life. Their bearings beat everything else on the market.


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## Zonic Man (Dec 19, 2003)

motard5 said:


> Anyone have feedback on the new PD-M9120 Trail pedals or the SL-MT800-L dropper post lever?


The trail pedals are good. I have been running them for a couple weeks now and they are solid.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

One Pivot said:


> XTR isnt a good value, it hasnt been in the past and it wont be in the future. Its not supposed to be. Its XTR.
> 
> Im going all in on 12s SLX. Hubs and all. If shimano can make ~40pt hubs that dont break, I found a hub for life. Their bearings beat everything else on the market.


Funny part is that's the going rate for the same item from a bunch of other companies


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## kramster (May 25, 2006)

Since the new 12sp shifters can be run in 11sp mode, does anyone know if they will work with the old 11sp derailleurs? I want to run the new brakes and want to integrate the shifter and dropper lever with the brake levers, but keep the rest of my drivetrain for now. 

Anyone in a position to test this yet to see if it works?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

kramster said:


> Since the new 12sp shifters can be run in 11sp mode, does anyone know if they will work with the old 11sp derailleurs? I want to run the new brakes and want to integrate the shifter and dropper lever with the brake levers, but keep the rest of my drivetrain for now.
> 
> Anyone in a position to test this yet to see if it works?


I doubt it since they specifically mention it still has the 12 speed spacing.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

It won't work since it has 12-speed spacing. It will only work on the new 11-speed 10-45 cassette.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

rideit said:


> As posted in another thread, I am more interested in if a SRAM Eagle Shifter and Derailleuer will work with the 51t XTR Cassette/freehub.


I forget where I read this, but I believe the spacing is different between Shimano and SRAM 12 speed. If that's true, it would suck not to be able to mix and match.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

12s shimano 3.55 mm
12s sram 3.65 mm

when cassettes aligned by first cog, mixing accuracy 0..+1mm
when cassettes aligned by middle cog, mixing accuracy -0.5..+0.5mm


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

TurboKoo said:


> 12s shimano 3.55 mm
> 12s sram 3.65 mm
> 
> when cassettes aligned by first cog, mixing accuracy 0..+1mm
> when cassettes aligned by middle cog, mixing accuracy -0.5..+0.5mm


Great info, thanks!

But damn, I was really looking to replacing my Eagle shifter and RD with the new Shimano stuff, without needing to replace every driver and cassette on every wheel I own.

I really get tired of the floppy, ineffective clutch on the Eagle RD.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

The question is: is 0.55 mm enough to make the Eagle/XTR incompatible, or will it work in reality?


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Crossmaxx said:


> The question is: is 0.55 mm enough to make the Eagle/XTR incompatible, or will it work in reality?


It's .10 and not .55mm, and that's only .0039 of a inch so just under four thousands of an inch. They will probably interchange with each other.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Crossmaxx said:


> The question is: is 0.55 mm enough to make the Eagle/XTR incompatible, or will it work in reality?


10 and 11 speed cassettes in shimano land are interchangeable ( 



 ) and there is approx 1mm nominal difference between those systems. Likewise - Campy and Shimmy 11 speed cassettes are also a hair different and people cross them with very little issue.

I'd wager that 12 speed shimmy and SRAM cassettes will also interchange.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

tom erb said:


> It's .10 and not .55mm, and that's only .0039 of a inch so just under four thousands of an inch. They will probably interchange with each other.


Yeah, between each sprocket the difference is 0.10. This means if you dial it in dead center in the middle of the cassette, the indexing will be off by .55 when you are in the lowest or highest gear. Hence my question.


----------



## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

so any one tried it yet? SRAM full kit, (cassette, shifter) and the new xtr rear mech?

found this video, but sadly cant comment on his video as hes disabled comments

wanted to ask if it actually required any further fettling or when he just swung the mech on and it all worked

hes running a gx eagle shifter, x01 cassette, xtr rear mech and xtr 12 speed chain (though i assume the chain wont matter at all)






what do we think looking at that vid? looks very smooth and precise

reason im asking is the eagle mechs are crap, have a load of play and shifting/setup is ridiculous with b tension , and it goes to pot and crap shifting after a few rides

with shimano mechs, you generally just set them up once and never touch them again and the shifting is always super smooth


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Didzy2009 said:


> what do we think looking at that vid? looks very smooth and precise
> 
> reason im asking is the eagle mechs are crap, have a load of play and shifting/setup is ridiculous with b tension , and it goes to pot and crap shifting after a few rides
> 
> with shimano mechs, you generally just set them up once and never touch them again and the shifting is always super smooth


How could you possible believe that? All I read is how far behind Sram Shimano is.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

TwoTone said:


> How could you possible believe that? All I read is how far behind Sram Shimano is.


I believe it because ive used shimano and sram extensively over the years, and shimano just works with little to no maintenance

sram eagle has been nothing but mostly faff for me, and once shimano finally catches up with the trend, they generally do it much better


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

ok quick update - just had it confirmed the xtr mech does work perfectly on a full sram set up (cassette, shifter, chain all eagle), said it works with no other adjustments required, simply just set the mech up as per shimanos instructions and it worked straight away, no messing or anything else weird

hopefully given how reliable shimano mechs are and setup being a breeze this should be a great solution for me personally


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

https://www.kustombikes.co.uk/artic...illeur-is-compatible-with-sram-eagle-12-speed
I'm more interested in an XTR shifter working with my GX Eagle derailleur. Was going full XTR, but until the GX der dies (already experienced the infamous pulley breakage) I'll make the shift (no pun intended) to XTR shifter first.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Prices are coming in for the hub sets. The MT900 at Bike24 is $180 for ~47 poe and a sub 400g hubset. Great news for those of use who like silent hubs!


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

Schulze said:


> Prices are coming in for the hub sets. The MT900 at Bike24 is $180 for ~47 poe and a sub 400g hubset. Great news for those of use who like silent hubs!


Good price. Does anyone know the spec differences between MT900 and M9110 hubs?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

CrozCountry said:


> Good price. Does anyone know the spec differences between MT900 and M9110 hubs?


Isn't one the wider flange 11 speed specific hub


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

TwoTone said:


> Isn't one the wider flange 11 speed specific hub


I think thats M9125


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

CrozCountry said:


> Good price. Does anyone know the spec differences between MT900 and M9110 hubs?


Apart from the weight difference and and small differences in the flanges?
Don't think there will be much differences between the two.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

CrozCountry said:


> I think thats M9125


They pushed the DS flange out to 29.3mm, giving only a 24% difference in average spoke tensions between sides compared to 36% for the 9010-B.

The 9125 NDS flange is also 2mm farther out so it will also be stiffer both ways.

So for a 120kgf ds, the nds will be 91 kgf. Nice.

Good news for those who are sticking with 11 speed.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

YamaLink said:


> My M9100 shifter and SGS derailleur are on the way. Will try with X01 Eagle cassette (that's currently matched with GX Eagle derailleur and X01 shifter). My other bikes have SRAM 11 cassette with Shimano shifter/derailleur. Sometimes SRAM chains, sometimes KMC. Perfect shifting. Probably 14 days til install. Will report back, of course.


How is the new 9100 working out??


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

you have a good system......


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## avaddon (Mar 3, 2018)

hi. currently have 2x10 xt drivetrain. was planned to go 1x11 but maybe better think slightly ahead for 1x12 
full xtr too pricey for me, so is it possible to run 9100 shifter\derailleur (long cage) with 11 speed (11-46) xt cassette?
(for time being before they release 12 speed xt..)


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

avaddon said:


> hi. currently have 2x10 xt drivetrain. was planned to go 1x11 but maybe better think slightly ahead for 1x12
> full xtr too pricey for me, so is it possible to run 9100 shifter\derailleur (long cage) with 11 speed (11-46) xt cassette?
> (for time being before they release 12 speed xt..)


Your system is Great, keep it.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

I think you could do that, have not tested it (yet) though.
But you got good advice ^^, keep your 2x10!


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

avaddon said:


> hi. currently have 2x10 xt drivetrain. was planned to go 1x11 but maybe better think slightly ahead for 1x12
> full xtr too pricey for me, so is it possible to run 9100 shifter\derailleur (long cage) with 11 speed (11-46) xt cassette?
> (for time being before they release 12 speed xt..)


That will not work. The spacing is different. New 11 speed has the same spacing as 12 speed with 1 gear lopped off.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

alexbn921 said:


> That will not work. The spacing is different. New 11 speed has the same spacing as 12 speed with 1 gear lopped off.


This the 11 speed was offered for people that wanted a lighter cassette and didn't need the huge 51t and it also let them offer a hub which 11 speed specific with wider hub flanges.
But the new 11 speed is not the same as current.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

There may not be an 11 vs 11 speed conflict. The Aftermarket will make old 11 spaced cassettes that fit the new microspline hub. Heck, Shimano may even do it.


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## TBurd01 (Sep 4, 2018)

Really like those new brakes, would pick up when XT comes out. Real curiosity is when will they come out with the lower spec SLX. Probably at least not until 2020. I want that silent freehub 12 spd. 51T goodness. Hopefully the freehub and hyperglide + is offered in SLX. If not than I suppose a few extra dollars for XT wouldn't hurt.

Hyperglide + is just the cassette (and chain?), correct? So if it's only on XT it could work with SLX shifter/derailleur?


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## avaddon (Mar 3, 2018)

alexbn921 said:


> That will not work. The spacing is different. New 11 speed has the same spacing as 12 speed with 1 gear lopped off.


yes spacing different. but it's not quantum physics really. 
transmission work in motion on bump road, by heavy load and with ton of mud.. 
so from engineering standpoint, situation where some less_than_millimeter difference make it unworkable look doubtful..


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## rodeoj (May 18, 2011)

I've had the cranks for about 2 weeks now, and at least some of the individual chainrings are finally hitting the EU now; one is on it's way to Fruita.

The cranks seem well built, they're light'ish, and I can wait to get them on my Yeti. They are 175mm/168.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

.......


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## YamaLink (Jun 23, 2010)

Apologies for not following up sooner. M9100 trigger works perfectly with Eagle rear derailleur. After taking X01 shifter off, the SRAM derailleur required minor tweaking of the b tension and limit adjustment screw.

Quick and quiet shifts both directions.

Didn't want to replace Eagle derailleur until it was damaged or broken. It's the GX and already snapped a pulley as they often do. Fingers crossed it lasts until SLX 12 derailleur comes out. My other bikes have XTR 11 trigger mated to SLX derailleur.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

The 12 speed XTR has about 6mm more distance between the up/down shift lever compared to the 11 speed XTR. So if you have smaller hands you may not like the new 12 speed shifter.


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## TheRed (Jan 25, 2011)

Is there any news on Chris King licencing Micro spline?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

TheRed said:


> Is there any news on Chris King licencing Micro spline?


Email Chris King?


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## motard5 (Apr 9, 2007)

Zonic Man said:


> The trail pedals are good. I have been running them for a couple weeks now and they are solid.


Do you think the new XTR PD-M9120 pedals are worth the extra cost over the XT PD-M8020 pedals?

I'm switching from platforms back to SPD, and want a decent platform area. 

XT






XTR


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## Zonic Man (Dec 19, 2003)

Wondering how this will play out with an eagle cassette and chain. I'm more a fan of the shimano "feel" than the sram "feel", that is to say that I like it a little lighter action and less "clunk" than sram.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Zonic Man said:


> Wondering how this will play out with an eagle cassette and chain. I'm more a fan of the shimano "feel" than the sram "feel", that is to say that I like it a little lighter action and less "clunk" than sram.


One of my bikes has a X01 Eagle cassette and chain with the XTR 12 trigger. It's perfect.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

westin said:


> One of my bikes has a X01 Eagle cassette and chain with the XTR 12 trigger. It's perfect.


XTR 12 speed RD, also?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

kosmo said:


> XTR 12 speed RD, also?


My riding buddy has the XTR 12 trigger and XTR derailleur with Eagle cassette and chain. I set it up for him, and it's flawless.
I cheaped out and didn't replace my Eagle GX derailleur because it's still got life left.
The b tension adjustment was a hair different for both. Understandably.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Zonic Man said:


> Wondering how this will play out with an eagle cassette and chain. I'm more a fan of the shimano "feel" than the sram "feel", that is to say that I like it a little lighter action and less "clunk" than sram.


?

For a few years now, shimano XT/XTR has been significantly heavier and "clunkier" than SRAM. I think they took some of the criticism to heart and the action got much heavier and clunkier. It shifts into gear great, but 8000/9000 requires more force and cannot be called "smooth" or "light" compared to my X01 drivetrains. That's one reason I took the 8000/9000 stuff off my fatbike, that and the lack of a derailleur catch.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

motard5 said:


> Do you think the new XTR PD-M9120 pedals are worth the extra cost over the XT PD-M8020 pedals?
> 
> I'm switching from platforms back to SPD, and want a decent platform area.
> 
> ...


typically, xtr pedals have less height than xt. this may or may not be of importance to you...


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

Jayem said:


> ?
> 
> For a few years now, shimano XT/XTR has been significantly heavier and "clunkier" than SRAM. I think they took some of the criticism to heart and the action got much heavier and clunkier. It shifts into gear great, but 8000/9000 requires more force and cannot be called "smooth" or "light" compared to my X01 drivetrains. That's one reason I took the 8000/9000 stuff off my fatbike, that and the lack of a derailleur catch.


How much force you need to shift has much more to do with cable routing and housing quality then with brand. Moreover - shimano has adjustable clutch which can be adjusted to tension the chain well, but at a cost of lever feel.

What is more intresting is the difference the effective cage length does - the shorter it is, the more effort is required to shift. My Zee-FR requires much more effort to shift then my XT8000 in spite of using the same housing/cable and cassette.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

uzurpator said:


> How much force you need to shift has much more to do with cable routing and housing quality then with brand. Moreover - shimano has adjustable clutch which can be adjusted to tension the chain well, but at a cost of lever feel.
> 
> What is more interesting is the difference the effective cage length does - the shorter it is, the more effort is required to shift. My Zee-FR requires much more effort to shift then my XT8000 in spite of using the same housing/cable and cassette.


I agree with this. I demo'd the latest Shimano XT on a Yeti SB55, and found that there was considerable resistance. I was disappointed that it compared so poorly to an existing 10spd XTR clutch setup I had on a Ripley.

I have a bike in my current quiver with M8000 XT shifters, and have also experienced it on other bikes since, and found many which shift as easily as any prior generation Shadow+ setup, including XTR 10 spd. That XTR shifter just felt sooo "clean", that I get what they're saying about it being like a Swiss watch, but resistance is another thing entirely. Part of my conclusion depends on my experience with resistance and stickiness often when it comes to cable actuated droppers, especially if excess housing length is "stuffed" into the frame.

I will note that my M8000 XT shifters came with a slight black coating on the cable, rather than standard stainless (the last 15mm of the cable wasn't coated, so I could tell), and I always opt to use SP41 housing. Don't recall 10 spd XT coming with such a coated cable. XX shfiters came with a jet black coating, typical of PTFE coated cables I've seen elsewhere. Basically, I'm adding that cable quality can matter too--I believe this enough to vow never buy zinc-coated galvanized cables, and am hesitant to use the cable+housing included with droppers.

Can't confirm the shorter cage thing, but I can say that it makes sense, considering the amount of cage rotation per shift.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

uzurpator said:


> How much force you need to shift has much more to do with cable routing and housing quality then with brand. Moreover - shimano has adjustable clutch which can be adjusted to tension the chain well, but at a cost of lever feel.
> 
> What is more intresting is the difference the effective cage length does - the shorter it is, the more effort is required to shift. My Zee-FR requires much more effort to shift then my XT8000 in spite of using the same housing/cable and cassette.


And that would make sense, except I have used the same bike for both systems, before the 8000/9000 series, sram took more force and was more "clunky/positive" going into gear. With the 8000/9000, that changed and shimano took the lead there.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

The new new Shimano stuff requires significantly more force than Sram to operate with no cable installed. I got on a brand new bike add thought something was wrong so I decoupled the cable and the feel didn't change.
Cables do have a huge impact on feel too. Good routing with Shimano Sp41 housing and optislick cables is the best you can get.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Parts are trickling in...where are the cranks and brakes in QBP?


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## TheRed (Jan 25, 2011)

TwoTone said:


> Email Chris King?


I did, got a very wishy-washy response. Then I saw the thread on here about the White Industries leaked micro-spline and hoped somebody would be ITK.


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## G.Petsis. (Sep 3, 2018)

hi.there is any way to use the new xtr 12s in 5x135mm rear end and 240 hub?
i think the new micro freehub is used only in 142-145mm rear ends.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

uzurpator said:


> How much force you need to shift has much more to do with cable routing and housing quality then with brand. Moreover - shimano has adjustable clutch which can be adjusted to tension the chain well, but at a cost of lever feel.
> 
> What is more intresting is the difference the effective cage length does - the shorter it is, the more effort is required to shift. My Zee-FR requires much more effort to shift then my XT8000 in spite of using the same housing/cable and cassette.


While this is true, 11spd shimano DEFINITELY takes more effort to shift than earlier generations of shimano. Now I've seen some pretty huge variability in setups of the 11spd shimano, and I'm pretty sure that routing is heavily responsible (the most problematic bikes I've seen have had internal routing, so there was probably something crossed inside the frame, I'd bet). But my bike with 11spd Shimano is the smoothest 11spd Shimano I've played with, and it's still heavier action than my wife's SRAM 11spd bike, or my older 10spd SRAM, or my wife's older 10spd Shimano, even with the clutch disabled.

My old 10spd SRAM XX shifter is so buttery that it's hard to feel the indexing on downshifts.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

alexbn921 said:


> The new new Shimano stuff requires significantly more force than Sram to operate with no cable installed. I got on a brand new bike add thought something was wrong so I decoupled the cable and the feel didn't change.
> Cables do have a huge impact on feel too. Good routing with Shimano Sp41 housing and optislick cables is the best you can get.


 I have no idea how the new derailuers feel cause all I do is hit a switch. Di2 and Red eTap works so well I almost never ever have to adjust, even when changing out the cassette for conditions. But if you ever do need an adjustment, you tap two buttons. After 60 years or riding, this is as close to nervania yet.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Anyone know when this stuff is actually going to start showing up, other than the odd bit here and there? I'm jonesin' for a 10-51 set-up.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

scatterbrained said:


> Anyone know when this stuff is actually going to start showing up, other than the odd bit here and there? I'm jonesin' for a 10-51 set-up.


my shop says most parts are going to new builds for sale so it may be a few more months. I am already waiting for the Di2 version.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Jayem said:


> ?
> 
> For a few years now, shimano XT/XTR has been significantly heavier and "clunkier" than SRAM. I think they took some of the criticism to heart and the action got much heavier and clunkier. It shifts into gear great, but 8000/9000 requires more force and cannot be called "smooth" or "light" compared to my X01 drivetrains. That's one reason I took the 8000/9000 stuff off my fatbike, that and the lack of a derailleur catch.


I am building a hardtail. I was thinking of giving the current 11 speed XT drivetrain a shot, after not having ridden anything Shimano (on dirt) since 2006. Compared to an Eagle drivetrain, the XT setup is basically free.

That said, sounds like this may not be the time for a crossover.

As much as I hate to cost-wise, I may have to suck it up and go with a GX-Eagle. Dammit.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I am building a hardtail. I was thinking of giving the current 11 speed XT drivetrain a shot, after not having ridden anything Shimano (on dirt) since 2006. Compared to an Eagle drivetrain, the XT setup is basically free.
> 
> That said, sounds like this may not be the time for a crossover.
> 
> As much as I hate to cost-wise, I may have to suck it up and go with a GX-Eagle. Dammit.


At 61 i can say i had many bikes. I just loved the Campagnolo on road bikes. 
I also loved an XTR 27 speeds on a HT 2000 that i bought 3 years ago.
Now i love my 3 years old HT with a SRAM 11 speeds XO1.
Obviously 3 top of the line transmissions from different manufacturers.
I bought the bikes used because of their high retail price.
I would go with an 11 speeds 11-50 cassette if i was building a bike with new parts.
The 11-42 from Shimano is too limited and their 11-46 is just a bad patch according to many. Maybe you can find a SRAM 11 speeds used for a decent price? 
The 10-42 range i have is a minimum i can live with.
For my fat i replaced the 11-36, 10 speeds with an 11-42 and i love it.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Hesher123 said:


> Nice, being a fan of Shimano I am looking forward to trying this... I didn't like SRAM GX 11sp or Eagle so this is a nice option in the future when the XT version hits the market.
> 
> Until then my perfect combo is SLX brakes, XTR rotors, XTR Shifter, XT derailleur, SRAM XG-1195 Cassette with a KMC chain + RF Next SL Cranks and DT Swiss 240 hubs <--- not that anyone asked


No one asked but you are very close to being spot on. I would add a 1199 X-Dome 10-42.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I have XT 11-42, am 60, and have 88km of climbing so far this year. The 11 is only used on roads (who cares) and the 42 in 3-4 short climbs. I could probably live without the 42. Cassettes are cheap, have more than enough range, and XT shifts well. I tried GX Eagle briefly, but put it on my old bike that I'm selling.

I prefer t spend my money where it counts on wheels, tires, and suspension.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Travis Bickle said:


> I have XT 11-42, am 60, and have 88km of climbing so far this year. The 11 is only used on roads (who cares) and the 42 in 3-4 short climbs. I could probably live without the 42. Cassettes are cheap, have more than enough range, and XT shifts well. I tried GX Eagle briefly, but put it on my old bike that I'm selling.
> 
> I prefer t spend my money where it counts on wheels, tires, and suspension.


Is the 88kms a typo? I think you and I came close to that the last ride we did when 
I was there. Not really, but you know what I mean.

I am not a huge fan of my XO Eagle drivetrain. That's why I was going to try Shimano again. XT though. Not the new XTR. I spend a fair amount on bikes but that new XTR is a little crazy cost-wise. Not to mention availability. In my neck of the woods, Shimano has a bad rep for CS on their newer stuff. Days turn into weeks which turn into months... The XT stuff, on the other hand, is readily available and dirt cheap, relatively speaking. Think I will stick with it. High pressure shifting and all...


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## rodeoj (May 18, 2011)

Ride report, the new xtr cranks are nice. For the record, the shimano front chainrings will work with any 11spd chain.


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## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

rodeoj said:


> Ride report, the new xtr cranks are nice. For the record, the shimano front chainrings will work with any 11spd chain.


Any thoughts on the new XTR chainring? I've used all sorts of narrow wide rings in recent years and fond the latest Eagle units to be noticeably smoother and quieter. I really like them but need new cranks and XTR have caught my eye now that they're direct mount. I'm just a bit unsure on the Shimano rings. I remember their original XT 8000 and XTR 9000 rings kind of sucking.


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## rodeoj (May 18, 2011)

The ring is fine, nothing really to mention. It's quiet and just does its job without drama. Absolute Black has already released their chainrings for the new crank interface, and I imagine that Wolf Tooth and One Up aren't far behind. Though again, I have no issue with the Shimano chainring.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Just receive some more 9100 race brakes today. So I decided to see if the adapter with the sliding nut out of the Sram Matchmaker bar clamp adapter would fit into the Shimano brake lever. It fits like it's made for it the only thing that may need to be changed is the screw is about 2 mm too short. I did not have a Sram shifter to see how the angle would be but it looks like it should work just fine. So running Sram 12 speed with Shimano i-spec EV brakes is another option.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Pedalon2018 said:


> my shop says most parts are going to new builds for sale so it may be a few more months. I am already waiting for the Di2 version.


Well that sucks. I was hoping to slip a new 12spd XTR set up and wheelset into that financial blackhole of "holiday spending".


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

A German online site I deal with say the M9100 1x12 groupset should be shipping in approximately 20 days. Maybe it will be an early holiday present? We'll see.


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

Shifter, brakes, derailleur, chain and cassette in stock here: https://www.bike-components.de/en


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Jan said:


> Shifter, brakes, derailleur, chain and cassette in stock here: https://www.bike-components.de/en


Brakes are 10-20 days out. However, I did just order cranks and an ispec shifter, thanks for the tip!


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm currently running XX1 11-speed with a twist shifter. (I don't like SRAM triggers and I'm a long time Grip Shift user.) I installed a Garbaruk 10-48 11-speed cassette to get a lower climbing gear, and it works okay, but doesn't shift quite as well as the original cassette. I'm thinking that I'll upgrade to the new XTR 12-speed to get the wide 10-51 range along with the great Shimano triggers and great shifting. I have I-9 hubs, so I'd get their micro-spline part when it's available and use the XTR cassette. I would use the XTR shifter, derailleur, cassette, and chain, but not the cranks/chainring -- I'm currently using RaceFace Next R cranks with an Absolute Black oval chainring.

Or, I might wait until it trickles down to the XT level. I've always thought that XT was the sweet spot for value/performance. It seems to perform as well as XTR for about half the price and just a small weight increase. My experience is that it also tends to be more durable than XTR.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

rideit said:


> Brakes are 10-20 days out. However, I did just order cranks and an ispec shifter, thanks for the tip!


looks like the race brakes are in?

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/XTR-XC-BR-M9100-Disc-Brake-Set-p65625/


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I'm working on a new build (taking my time on it), and the more I think about what I want in the build, the more I think about giving the new XTR a go. I like the 10-45 cassette, as that's really all the range I want. It sounds like shift quality on it should be pretty good from the reports I'm reading.

It'll be a little while before I buy the drivetrain bits, so I'm not too concerned about availability right now. I'm taking care of the big parts first. Just got a fork, and wheels are next on my list. Now that there are 3 major freehub body interfaces available as options, I had to start thinking a little more about drivetrain before I drop the cash on wheels. I'm definitely putting I9 wheels on this build, in part because they're only about 5mi down the road from my house. So good that they'll be offering the microspline interface soon.

I think I'm going to wind up using the 10-45 11spd cassette. Not really so much because weight is that much of a priority for me. More because it seems to me that chainline will be better on the 45t cog on the 11spd version than it would on the 12spd version. Nice that the same shifter and RD can be used for both the 11spd and 12spd versions, in case I ever want tighter spacing.

I also am thinking of going to this Shimano drivetrain because I expect that microspline is going to wind up on xt and slx before too long. And for long term use, I will probably be using the less expensive cassettes, anyway.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

dRjOn said:


> looks like the race brakes are in?
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/XTR-XC-BR-M9100-Disc-Brake-Set-p65625/


Got a pair of the enduros on the way from Taiwan. I have everything in my hands or on order, the last to arrive will be the Absolute Black oval 32 t chainring.


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## G.Petsis. (Sep 3, 2018)

Do you think that 9120 levers can be used wiyh 2 pistons calipers?
Or the 9100 levers could be a better and more safe solution?



rideit said:


> Got a pair of the enduros on the way from Taiwan. I have everything in my hands or on order, the last to arrive will be the Absolute Black oval 32 t chainring.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

G.Petsis. said:


> Do you think that 9120 levers can be used wiyh 2 pistons calipers?
> Or the 9100 levers could be a better and more safe solution?


If it's anything like the M8000/M8020 then the difference will be in the caliper, not the lever.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

im running : xtr 12 speed rear mech with eagle x01 shifter eagle gx cassette

im also running a kmc x12 silver chain

i suddenly cant back pedal in the biggest 2 cogs - even setup correctly via the b-screw on the marker on the back of the mech (ok so it states 51t instead of 50 that eagle cassette is), ive tried adjusting either side of it

im sure when i put it all on, on a previous frame it back pedalled fine.

so anyone thats running a xtr mech and eagle cassette can you see if you can back pedal in the top (biggest) two cogs? im guessing it may be the kmc chain perhaps?


----------



## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

rideit said:


> Got a pair of the enduros on the way from Taiwan. I have everything in my hands or on order, the last to arrive will be the Absolute Black oval 32 t chainring.


Have a link to where you ordered the brakes from?


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Didzy2009 said:


> im running : xtr 12 speed rear mech with eagle x01 shifter eagle gx cassette
> 
> im also running a kmc x12 silver chain
> 
> ...


New frame. Probably has shorter chainstays and different chainline.


----------



## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

TwoTone said:


> New frame. Probably has shorter chainstays and different chainline.


same brand, with same wheels and components and still boost?


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

How many months/years will it take for the Shimano 12-speed groupset to get down to $350-500 after putting out cheaper variants? 2 years like SRAM? Longer?


----------



## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

richj8990 said:


> How many months/years will it take for the Shimano 12-speed groupset to get down to $350-500 after putting out cheaper variants? 2 years like SRAM? Longer?


Shimano usually takes 3 years to push their top group features to deore/slx level. XT will most likely be available next year, SLX in 2020 and deore in 11 speed format in 2021. It is also almost certain that next year we are going to get new Saint - so it might be that some features from XTR 12 speed will trickle there as well.


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Didzy2009 said:


> same brand, with same wheels and components and still boost?


Did you check the hanger alignment? Never assume it's ok even on a brand new frame.


----------



## G.Petsis. (Sep 3, 2018)

The levers for 4 pistons calipers push in more oil.
Shimano say that you can not mix 2-pistons and 4 piston brake system.
But i have read here that some guys have done it with other shimano series.
Maybe the more oil from 9120 levers makes the brake overkill in 2 piston calipers?


----------



## G.Petsis. (Sep 3, 2018)

scatterbrained said:


> If it's anything like the M8000/M8020 then the difference will be in the caliper, not the lever.


The levers for 4 pistons calipers push in more oil.
Shimano say that you can not mix 2-pistons and 4 piston brake system.
But i have read here that some guys have done it with other shimano series.
Maybe the more oil from 9120 levers makes the brake overkill in 2 piston calipers?


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Didzy2009 said:


> im running : xtr 12 speed rear mech with eagle x01 shifter eagle gx cassette
> 
> im also running a kmc x12 silver chain
> 
> ...


There are so many different factors with the backpedal issue that it can be hard to pin it down. In your case, the difference in chainstay length is probably the culprit (thereby affecting the angle between the chainring and the biggest cog(s)). I noticed that with my Sunrace cassette, the chain was riding on top of very SPECIFIC teeth on my biggest cog and then dropping off. So I filed chamfers on those teeth to keep the chain sliding down and prevent it from climbing over them. Stellar results from that. I've seen 1x setups on other bikes that are 100% problem free, and others with worse chain drop than mine ever had. For some people, using a different brand of chain solves it. For others, moving the chainline inboard (reducing it) works. Just depends on what your setup is, what exactly is going on, and then you can start to figure out your options.

IME, hanger alignment doesn't affect the backpedal chain drop issue as much, and you're likely to notice crappy shifting before the backpedal chain drop.

I am curious how the 12spd Shimano starts to pan out for people WRT the backpedal chain drop issue. The new chain is supposed to fit chainring teeth more snugly (maybe also cassette teeth?), which I see as a positive. I do see the 10-45 11spd cassette as probably offering better chainline, since it's the same as the 10-51 12spd with the 51t removed. Curious if there are chain drop issues on any of the cassette setups.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

G.Petsis. said:


> The levers for 4 pistons calipers push in more oil.
> Shimano say that you can not mix 2-pistons and 4 piston brake system.
> But i have read here that some guys have done it with other shimano series.
> Maybe the more oil from 9120 levers makes the brake overkill in 2 piston calipers?


Did they say that specifically with the 9100 series? I have the XT 8020 front and 8000 rear and the lever from my old 8000 front was the same as the new 8020.


----------



## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Harold said:


> There are so many different factors with the backpedal issue that it can be hard to pin it down. In your case, the difference in chainstay length is probably the culprit (thereby affecting the angle between the chainring and the biggest cog(s)). I noticed that with my Sunrace cassette, the chain was riding on top of very SPECIFIC teeth on my biggest cog and then dropping off. So I filed chamfers on those teeth to keep the chain sliding down and prevent it from climbing over them. Stellar results from that. I've seen 1x setups on other bikes that are 100% problem free, and others with worse chain drop than mine ever had. For some people, using a different brand of chain solves it. For others, moving the chainline inboard (reducing it) works. Just depends on what your setup is, what exactly is going on, and then you can start to figure out your options.
> 
> IME, hanger alignment doesn't affect the backpedal chain drop issue as much, and you're likely to notice crappy shifting before the backpedal chain drop.
> 
> I am curious how the 12spd Shimano starts to pan out for people WRT the backpedal chain drop issue. The new chain is supposed to fit chainring teeth more snugly (maybe also cassette teeth?), which I see as a positive. I do see the 10-45 11spd cassette as probably offering better chainline, since it's the same as the 10-51 12spd with the 51t removed. Curious if there are chain drop issues on any of the cassette setups.


yeh mech hangers fine and shifting is spot on and crisp so as far I can tell the hangers spot on, ive had dodgy shifting before due to a mech hanger so I know what the symptoms of that are

its a Bronson 17 to new V3 - so chainstay difference is negligible - I really doubt it is that tbh but of course it could be, something obviously has changed - ive adjust the low limit screw and that's fine, adjusted the B screw set either side of the marker and makes no difference

Id imagine its probably cos its a complete mismatch of components - ie eagle cassette- xtr mech - kmc chain

but ill eventually just get full xtr I think in the next few months


----------



## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Anyone have a source for the enduro (m9120) brakset?
rideit says he has a set coming.


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

They only had two sets available, but I scored these with the eBay 15% off code for $399.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-XT...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## MagicShite (Oct 20, 2015)

anyone here knows if the new M9100 works with One Up round chainrings?

Or do the M9100 works with older 11 speed NW chainrings at all?


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

MagicShite said:


> anyone here knows if the new M9100 works with One Up round chainrings?
> 
> Or do the M9100 works with older 11 speed NW chainrings at all?


It's a new direct mount crank, so it won't with older rings and if OneUp makes a switch spider for then it'll work.


----------



## MagicShite (Oct 20, 2015)

TwoTone said:


> It's a new direct mount crank, so it won't with older rings and if OneUp makes a switch spider for then it'll work.


I'm sorry my question probably wasn't clear enough, I mean if I could run the One Up Round chainrings with the M9100 cassette, chain and derailleur?

I don't intend to grab a new XTR crankset. I just want to use back my M8000 crankset.


----------



## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

Didzy2009 said:


> Id imagine its probably cos its a complete mismatch of components - ie eagle cassette- xtr mech - kmc chain
> 
> but ill eventually just get full xtr I think in the next few months


Consensus on this site for those running mixed drivetrains (11 & 12 speed) is that the SRAM chain is the way to go.


----------



## RSAmerica (Aug 24, 2012)

PuddleDuck said:


> Consensus on this site for those running mixed drivetrains (11 & 12 speed) is that the SRAM chain is the way to go.


I run XTR with sram XX1 cassettes 11sp with sram chains. I would always match the chain to the cassette brand.


----------



## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

PuddleDuck said:


> Consensus on this site for those running mixed drivetrains (11 & 12 speed) is that the SRAM chain is the way to go.


good point - ill try it, as ive still got my xx1 black chain eagle chain that was partially worn - so ill try that this weekend just to test , as I know it definitely back pedalled on the old frame with xtr/xx1 chain and eagle cassette


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Stuff is trickling in...



















Don't really love how the brakes and levers don't quite match in color...(The carpets don't match the drapes!)


----------



## Oldsport (Nov 28, 2018)

I am such a newb that it is hard to know where to begin with my questions.

I was planning on ordering a RD-M9120-SGS so that I could sometimes go 2x with the 10-45 and sometimes 1x with a 10x51 cassette, but it seems that the RD 9120 won't go beyond a 10-45 even as a 1x according to the Shimano site. Am I correct in that assumption? I cannot figure out why it wouldn't go as big as 51 because it is the SGS. What am I missing?

Also, I am planning on running it as an 11 speed until there is a road mechanical 12 speed shifter available. Could I use a SunRace 11 speed wide ratio cassette or a LX 11-45 11 speed cassette as a 2x for the time being? 

Thank you. I hope that my questions aren't too confusing. I confuse myself sometime!


----------



## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

rideit said:


> Stuff is trickling in...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting rideit.

I'm interested as I just ordered a set from the same source as you. 
Any more comments and/or pictures would be appreciated.


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Tree said:


> Thanks for posting rideit.
> 
> I'm interested as I just ordered a set from the same source as you.
> Any more comments and/or pictures would be appreciated.


Not sure what to add besides shipping was pretty fast. The brakes are really light, but that is without hoses, pads, or fluid. Pretty stoked on them. The only thing I have left on order is the Absolute Black chainring. Haven't gotten my cranks from Germany yet.


----------



## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Oldsport said:


> I am such a newb that it is hard to know where to begin with my questions.
> 
> I was planning on ordering a RD-M9120-SGS so that I could sometimes go 2x with the 10-45 and sometimes 1x with a 10x51 cassette, but it seems that the RD 9120 won't go beyond a 10-45 even as a 1x according to the Shimano site. Am I correct in that assumption? I cannot figure out why it wouldn't go as big as 51 because it is the SGS. What am I missing?
> 
> ...


I have been looking into this myself and I do not know! Originally the XTR documentation stated the RD-M9120 was a medium cage mech, but now its launched apparently its a long cage mech. I guess it might work, then again it might not work. I have gone for the RD-M9100-SGS rear mech as that's proven to work.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/info...ries-mountain-bike-components-debut-new-.html

"RD-M9100-SGS
- Long cage derailleur
- 51T max cog size
- Works with both 10-51 and 10-45-tooth cassettes
RD-M9100-GS
- Short cage derailleur
- 45T max cog size
- Works with both 11-speed and 12-speed 10-45-tooth cassettes
- Better ground clearance (28mm shorter cage)
RD-M9120-GS
- Designed for front double chainring setup
- 45T max cog size
- Compatible with 2x12 speed"


----------



## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

rideit said:


> Not sure what to add besides shipping was pretty fast. The brakes are really light, but that is without hoses, pads, or fluid. Pretty stoked on them. The only thing I have left on order is the Absolute Black chainring. Haven't gotten my cranks from Germany yet.


Hopefully they came with the lines, fittings and pads. LOL


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Tree said:


> Hopefully they came with the lines, fittings and pads. LOL


Oh, yeah, they came with everything, but I just picked up the levers and calipers in terms of the perceived weight. I wish they came with a bleed kit and fluid, that's kind of annoying that they don't.


----------



## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

Quick check of the SL-M9100 XTR 12s/11s shifter for those interested. Still to get the rear mech to install


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Just a heads up, the new Brake Levers have a new ispec standard (gotta love new standards!) called ispec EV, so if you have a dropper remote with ispec II, it won’t work. 
Grumble.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Is it just me or is it sad that we've got to order internationally to be able to get this stuff? I'm still waiting on hub availability dag nab it. Onyx needs to get their microspline hubs out so I can get me some new wheels and drivetrain before the holiday spending season is over.:incazzato:


----------



## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

It is new stuff and it takes awhile to fill the supply lines. Teams that race for a living got the first equipment available. I still need to wait for the Di2 XTR to show up. I am hoping for be spring. We shall see.


----------



## Oldsport (Nov 28, 2018)

I just spoke with my shop in CA. They expect to take their first shipment on Thursday or Friday from the distributor in one of the Carolinas. So it looks like most of the US shops should have the drive trains in by next week. The brakes will take a little longer.


----------



## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

My friend who has a shop in Scottsdale AZ talked to the Shimano rep last week and was told February of 2019 before the USA would see the new 12 speed. Quality Bike Products is saying ETA: 02/01/19 so I do not think any distributor in the US will have it next week.......


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## Oldsport (Nov 28, 2018)

I'll let you know on Friday if my order gets shipped out.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Oldsport said:


> I'll let you know on Friday if my order gets shipped out.


When supply catches up to demand, my guess many sets will sit behind the glass. I want the electric model and that wait has not even started yet. XTR group set and new hub is some heavy cash many riders may find hard to justify. I just don't care. What you can afford is mostly how you set your priorities. Safe Travels


----------



## cornice6 (Aug 23, 2007)

Looks like the M9100 upgrade kit is now available from Germany. Anyone had any experience buying from either of these two sites?

Bike Discount

r2 bike


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

Bike Discount is good. Reasonable prices and fast service. No experience with r2 bike. 

HiBike, Bike Components, and Bike24 are also good and reputable.


----------



## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Good experience with both, mostly with Bike Discount because usually has better prices. 
The stores mentioned by kwapik are also good, I ordered from all of them and even from some not mentioned.
I'm from Europe, so I don't know how fast is the shipping to the US.


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

tom erb said:


> Just receive some more 9100 race brakes today. So I decided to see if the adapter with the sliding nut out of the Sram Matchmaker bar clamp adapter would fit into the Shimano brake lever. It fits like it's made for it the only thing that may need to be changed is the screw is about 2 mm too short. I did not have a Sram shifter to see how the angle would be but it looks like it should work just fine. So running Sram 12 speed with Shimano i-spec EV brakes is another option.


Could you please upload a pic?


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## Oldsport (Nov 28, 2018)

Update on my order from California: I ordered the cassette, derailleur, and chain. The bike shop spoke to the distributor yesterday. They expect to receive their shipment in CA by this weekend. I did learn that brakes and cranks won't be available until January at the earliest.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

cycloholic said:


> Could you please upload a pic?


Here's the pictures of the Shram Matchmaker brackets attached to the 9100 Shimano brakes.
I do not have any Sram shifters in the shop at this time so that part is not in the picture.


----------



## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

so if that match maker works for the brakes (shimano)/shifter (sram)

will it also work the other way? i want to run my sram code brakes, with a new xtr shifter, but want to keep it all in one (like the matchmaker is currently with sram brakes and shifter)

ive email problem solvers but they have no ETA on when one will be available


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Aglo said:


> Good experience with both, mostly with Bike Discount because usually has better prices.
> The stores mentioned by kwapik are also good, I ordered from all of them and even from some not mentioned.
> I'm from Europe, so I don't know how fast is the shipping to the US.


I ordered some hub tools from bike24 once, shipped to USA. Took FOREVER, but I'm pretty sure it's because customs got hold of my package and took their sweet time with it. Payment was also a PITA, since bike24 wanted to run some sort of verification on my card before processing it. Their request for that got caught in my spam filter, which caused additional delays.

That was a couple years ago, and it put me off from ordering from all the German sites for awhile, so it's been my only experience with them so far.


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

I ordered from bike-components.de, they have been great to work with.


----------



## cornice6 (Aug 23, 2007)

Has anyone tried the upgrade XTR M9100 gruppo (cassette, RD and shifter) out in the wild yet and any feedback? Thanks!


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

So, does anyone know the offset of the XTR cranks (chainrings) in relation to boost? 3mm, 6mm, or something different altogether? A friend asked me this yesterday, and I had no answer...


----------



## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

tom erb said:


> Here's the pictures of the Shram Matchmaker brackets attached to the 9100 Shimano brakes.
> I do not have any Sram shifters in the shop at this time so that part is not in the picture.


Thanks👌


----------



## Jonathan Stamler (Aug 29, 2015)

cornice6 said:


> Has anyone tried the upgrade XTR M9100 gruppo (cassette, RD and shifter) out in the wild yet and any feedback? Thanks!


Yes. actually the cassette makes a really strong noise when pushing some weight .
Mostly happening in the last 6 sprockets. 
Did anyone else experienced it?


----------



## hiss2 (Jan 13, 2002)

I read through this whole thread and still am not totally clear on whether i can use a:

Sram 11spd cassette with the new Xtr 11spd/12spd compatible shifter/derailleur ??

thanks!


----------



## cornice6 (Aug 23, 2007)

Jonathan Stamler said:


> Yes. actually the cassette makes a really strong noise when pushing some weight .
> Mostly happening in the last 6 sprockets.
> Did anyone else experienced it?


Does not sound very promising. Any idea as to why weight (torque?) would cause this? Loose sprockets maybe?


----------



## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

hiss2 said:


> I read through this whole thread and still am not totally clear on whether i can use a:
> 
> Sram 11spd cassette with the new Xtr 11spd/12spd compatible shifter/derailleur ??
> 
> thanks!


No it will not work.......


----------



## hiss2 (Jan 13, 2002)

tom erb said:


> No it will not work.......


Ok thought that's how I understood it.. thanks

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

My friend tried a Sram chainring with the shimano chain and had issues with it binding. Sram chain seems to be shifting fine on the XTR cassette though.

Shifter feels like they really tried to make it feel clicky. Feels even clickier than SRAM. Personally I prefer the old 10 speed M980 shifters.


----------



## Kuttermax (Sep 4, 2011)

rodeoj said:


> The ring is fine, nothing really to mention. It's quiet and just does its job without drama. Absolute Black has already released their chainrings for the new crank interface, and I imagine that Wolf Tooth and One Up aren't far behind. Though again, I have no issue with the Shimano chainring.


I'm in the process of a new HT build. I'm moving stuff from an older Air 9 RDO to the new current gen Air 9 RDO.

I have 2x11 M9000 right now with a Medium Cage Shadow Plus rear derailleur. I have a Stages PM on the M9000 crank. My initial thought was to move the drive train over but go 1x on the new build. I thought I might replace the XTR 11-40T cassette with a TRS Race 10-46T, but I'm not sure the Medium Cage M9000 derailleur can handle this. Anyone know?

So.. the I started thinking 12 speed. Eagle should work if I get a new cassette, derailleur and shifter. I should be able to keep the M9000 XTR crank and my Stages and just move them over. With eTAp on the horizon, it may be worth waiting for this.

I also looked at the Shimano 12 speed option. The 10-51T cassette would be great but I'm concerned about the crank. It sounds like the Hyperglide 12 speed chain requires the new M9100 chainring. Can this ring be mounted on my M9000 crank? I really don't want to replace the crank, especially since I also invested in the Stages PM. If not, then Eagle may be the way to go.


----------



## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

No 9100 rings will not mount on 9000 cranks.....Buy your existing 9000 ring will work just fine with the 9100 chain....


----------



## Velorangutan (Aug 28, 2012)

From Industry Nine!

https://scontent.faus1-1.fna.fbcdn....=573db78983683af7393a71adbbcd5aba&oe=5CA32622


----------



## Jonathan Stamler (Aug 29, 2015)

The answer is a missing spacer between the fw and the cassette. 
Cannondale and shimano have already sent the missing spacers to the dealer but apparently I can't put my hand on it because I purchased it abroad.


----------



## Kuttermax (Sep 4, 2011)

tom erb said:


> No 9100 rings will not mount on 9000 cranks.....Buy your existing 9000 ring will work just fine with the 9100 chain....


So any Narrow/Wide 11 speed chain ring will work with the 12 speed XTR Hyperglide+ chain?


----------



## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Kuttermax said:


> So any Narrow/Wide 11 speed chain ring will work with the 12 speed XTR Hyperglide+ chain?


That's what I use...


----------



## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

Velorangutan said:


> From Industry Nine!
> 
> https://scontent.faus1-1.fna.fbcdn....=573db78983683af7393a71adbbcd5aba&oe=5CA32622


Where can I buy that?


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Not that many people have them, but I received confirmation that Extralite will have microspline in February. So the concern about the hubs at the release was unnecessary.


----------



## cornice6 (Aug 23, 2007)

tom erb said:


> That's what I use...


I'm curious which NW chainring are you using with the 12spd XTR Hyperglide+ chain? Thanks!


----------



## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

cornice6 said:


> I'm curious which NW chainring are you using with the 12spd XTR Hyperglide+ chain? Thanks!


Race Face Narrow Wide Cinch Direct Mount Chainring


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

hiss2 said:


> I read through this whole thread and still am not totally clear on whether i can use a:
> 
> Sram 11spd cassette with the new Xtr 11spd/12spd compatible shifter/derailleur ??
> 
> thanks!





tom tom said:


> No it will not work.......







No personal experience with the setup but in this video it seems to work perfectly. Yeah it's a Shimano cassette in the video but I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work on a SRAM 11spd cassette.


----------



## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

So HollyBoni why don't you put it on your bike and let all of us know how it works??












HollyBoni


----------



## cornice6 (Aug 23, 2007)

tom tom said:


> Race Face Narrow Wide Cinch Direct Mount Chainring


awesome as that's exactly my chainring on next sl cranks. planning on getting the xtr 12sp upgrade (shifter, rd and cassette). thanks!


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

tom tom said:


> So HollyBoni why don't you put it on your bike and let all of us know how it works??
> 
> HollyBoni


Well I have so much money that I don't know what to do with it but i'm just not in the mood right now ya know.
But I wont touch peasant 11spd vintage stuff anyways.

tom tom


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

TwoTone said:


> concern about the hubs at the release was unnecessary.


I remember one guy here on MTBR said from the very beginning that Shimano would be foolish to limit the microspline licensing/use in any way. That he was confident it would be open source so to speak, same as Shimano's previous/current freehub spline design.

Oh yeah, that was me.
=sParty


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

HollyBoni said:


> Well I have so much money that I don't know what to do with it but i'm just not in the mood right now ya know.
> But I wont touch peasant 11spd vintage stuff anyways.
> 
> tom tom


Wake me up when the Shimano 12-speed version trickles down to $500; otherwise I'll save up $450 for the SRAM GX 10-50 groupset. Makes no sense for most of us to immediately buy something well over $1000 when there are much cheaper equivalents. And that's coming from someone who loves Shimano and doesn't even like SRAM. The price difference is too great, at this time, not to consider SRAM.


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

richj8990 said:


> Wake me up when the Shimano 12-speed version trickles down to $500; otherwise I'll save up $450 for the SRAM GX 10-50 groupset. Makes no sense for most of us to immediately buy something well over $1000 when there are much cheaper equivalents. And that's coming from someone who loves Shimano and doesn't even like SRAM. The price difference is too great, at this time, not to consider SRAM.


If you think Sram Eagle is the equivalent- well enjoy it. Personally don't agree since it was a rushed design with band aids that aren't working that great.


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

richj8990 said:


> Wake me up when the Shimano 12-speed version trickles down to $500; otherwise I'll save up $450 for the SRAM GX 10-50 groupset.


Done, should I wait for the freehub standard to spread too?



TwoTone said:


> If you think Sram Eagle is the equivalent- well enjoy it. Personally don't agree since it was a rushed design with band aids that aren't working that great.


Not trolling, genuinely curious, do you have any info what's so different about XTR?

Obviously I have no experience with the new XTR. But all I can see is a big cassette, and a derailleur with large pulleys and an offset upper pulley. Exactly like SRAM.

Do we know for sure if XTR is completely free of backpedal issues, and if it's not as finnicky about the B-gap as Eagle? In what way is it better than the top Eagle groups and why?


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Why are many people expecting a great 12 speeds from Shimano?
Their 11 speeds 11-42 was short on range.
Their 11 speeds 11-46 was just a bad patch.
I had a great 27 speeds 2000 Shimano but they look like they focussed on electronic and missed the boat for a few years.
I am enjoying a great 11 speeds 10-42 from SRAM and do not feel the need to jump on the latest thing out.
Will it turn out to be crap?
I just let time answer that.
I just had a great deal on an unsold mountain bike because here it is fatbike season.
Why not buy what works for a decent price?


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

33red said:


> Their 11 speeds 11-46 was just a bad patch.


Explain, please. Mine performs flawlessly. Thanks.
=sParty


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

HollyBoni said:


> Not trolling, genuinely curious, do you have any info what's so different about XTR?
> 
> Obviously I have no experience with the new XTR. But all I can see is a big cassette, and a derailleur with large pulleys and an offset upper pulley. Exactly like SRAM.
> 
> Do we know for sure if XTR is completely free of backpedal issues, and if it's not as finnicky about the B-gap as Eagle? In what way is it better than the top Eagle groups and why?


The Hyperglide+ cassette design is new and potentially a significant benefit over any other cassette with smoother upshifts. Microspline looks to be a better standard than XD for multiple reasons that have been previously debated here. The truth will be found on the trail, but just from past experience I am optimistic.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I just personally like Shimano trigger shifters and have never cared for SRAM triggers. I am currently running XX1 11-speed, but I swapped the trigger for a twist shifter. It works pretty well, but I wanted more range than the 10-42 so I installed a Garbaruk 10-48 cassette, which doesn't shift quite as well as the SRAM cassette did. I considered upgrading to Eagle 12-speed, but since I like Shimano triggers and Shimano performance in general I'll probably go with the new XTR 12-speed.

It looks like you can get a 4-piece XTR group (shifter, derailleur, chain, cassette) for around $530, which isn't too bad, but I also have to add in the cost of the micro-spline hub body for my I9 Torch hub, which isn't cheap.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Sparticus said:


> Explain, please. Mine performs flawlessly. Thanks.
> =sParty


the gradation is just plain bad the sunrace and others are more evenly flowing. It is like going up or down stairs, the spacing should be even, not with 1 big jump.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

jabrabu;It looks like you can get a 4-piece XTR group (shifter said:


> Could you tell us where the $530 set is at?


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Velodonata said:


> The Hyperglide+ cassette design is new and potentially a significant benefit over any other cassette with smoother upshifts. Microspline looks to be a better standard than XD for multiple reasons that have been previously debated here. The truth will be found on the trail, but just from past experience I am optimistic.


Yeah Hyperglide+ looks interesting and although I have no problems with XD personally, I see that it's basically like the old threaded standard...

From what I see the main problems with Eagle come from user error, i'm very curious how XTR is going to be in this regard. I don't see anything that would indicate that it's going to be less finicky but we will see.

To be honest the whole 1x concept feels a bit band aid-y to me... But I guess you can't do better with a chain and a cassette.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

HollyBoni said:


> Yeah Hyperglide+ looks interesting and although I have no problems with XD personally, I see that it's basically like the old threaded standard...
> 
> From what I see the main problems with Eagle come from user error, i'm very curious how XTR is going to be in this regard. I don't see anything that would indicate that it's going to be less finicky but we will see.
> 
> To be honest the whole 1x concept feels a bit band aid-y to me... But I guess you can't do better with a chain and a cassette.


LOL user error that it has to slip into sync on the 2 big wide narrow cogs.

User error that people had to out plastic blocks in the RD cages to keep the chain from coming off, wedging in the cage and ripping the RD off.

Jesus before Eagle came out if any drivetrain did that people would be all over it calling it crap. But hey Sram released it and it goes to 12, so it's a design feature so it's all good.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

TwoTone said:


> LOL user error that it has to slip into sync on the 2 big wide narrow cogs.
> 
> User error that people had to out plastic blocks in the RD cages to keep the chain from coming off, wedging in the cage and ripping the RD off.
> 
> Jesus before Eagle came out if any drivetrain did that people would be all over it calling it crap. But hey Sram released it and it goes to 12, so it's a design feature so it's all good.


No need to get salty. I said I wasn't trolling. I never said it's all good. My question was if you knew how Shimano resolved all of the issues that come with a 1x12, because I still don't. That's it.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

33red said:


> the gradation is just plain bad the sunrace and others are more evenly flowing. It is like going up or down stairs, the spacing should be even, not with 1 big jump.


Yeah, I've read this quite a bit here on mtbr. I've used both Shimano & Sunrace 11-46t cassettes at length and have come to the conclusion that the terrain they're used to conquer as well as individual sensitivities are key.

I was not bothered in the least by Shimano's huge final leap to the 46t cog, but I ride terrain that many people consider extreme (including 20%+ grades). When I need a lower gear, I shift to it. I honestly never noticed the significant #2 cog >#1 cog gap difference between Shimano's and Sunrace's 11-46t cassettes. I'm not saying I can't detect it, I'm saying I don't.

That said, I buy Sunrace cassettes. Why? Because they're cheaper. But if Shimano's were cheaper, I'd buy them, even with that "intolerably huge" #2 cog >#1 cog gap.  IME shifting performance is similar & good for both. Not as good as smaller cassettes but def a worthwhile trade off considering the gain in gear range.

I suppose the huge #2 cog >#1 cog disparity between Shimano and Sunrace would be more noticeable if I were riding on flatter terrain where I paid more attention to cadence, but I don't think about cadence in the mountains. In the end I think the cog gap issue is similar to that of hub POE -- some say they simply can't ride hubs that lack near instant engagement whereas some of us couldn't care less about it.
=sParty


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

tom tom said:


> Could you tell us where the $530 set is at?


https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shimano-xtr-m9100-1x12-speed-upgrade-kit-10-51-clamp-808104


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

HollyBoni said:


> No need to get salty. I said I wasn't trolling. I never said it's all good. My question was if you knew how Shimano resolved all of the issues that come with a 1x12, because I still don't. That's it.


Well it doesn't have wide narrow cogs- so syncing isn't an issue. Back pedaling is an issue with 11 speed, so I don't expect a magic bullet- but at least we don't get a band-aid like Eagle.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

I'll leave this here


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

TwoTone said:


> Well it doesn't have wide narrow cogs- so syncing isn't an issue. Back pedaling is an issue with 11 speed, so I don't expect a magic bullet- but at least we don't get a band-aid like Eagle.


My 11 speeds had no issue of back pedaling since i bought it 22 months ago. I do not know what brand/model you are talking about?
Mine is SRAM.


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## HSracer (Jun 30, 2013)

TwoTone said:


> I'll leave this here


They definitely had some good things to say, but it felt kind of like an advertisement to me


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

TwoTone said:


> I'll leave this here


Looks sweet for sure. They didn't really get technical but i'm guessing the performance benefits come from Hyperglide+ and the new chain. I just want to geek out a bit and not just hear "it works because it's Shimano and they took their time" over and over. :lol:

I'm very interested how the groupset is going to perform in the "real world" and if we're going to see forum threads about issues.  And of course can't wait for the trickle down XT.



33red said:


> My 11 speeds had no issue of back pedaling since i bought it 22 months ago. I do not know what brand/model you are talking about?
> Mine is SRAM.


Depends on the chain, chain line, chainstay length. Generally speaking I think the 1X specific SRAM chains are the best in this regard (and no i'm not trying to upset Shimano fans).
On one of my bikes i'm running a GX Eagle chain on an XG-1150 cassette. The bike has quite long chainstays at 440mm, sometimes I can backpedal in the 42T forever, sometimes it drops down after 2-3 revolutions.
A 1x12spd cassette makes things even worse, that's why SRAM went to a narrow wide design on the 42T and 50T on Eagle cassettes. But because of this if the B-gap is not set up correctly the chain can get out of sync with the NW cogs.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

HollyBoni said:


> Looks sweet for sure. They didn't really get technical but i'm guessing the performance benefits come from Hyperglide+ and the new chain. I just want to geek out a bit and not just hear "it works because it's Shimano and they took their time" over and over. :lol:
> 
> I'm very interested how the groupset is going to perform in the "real world" and if we're going to see forum threads about issues.  And of course can't wait for the trickle down XT.
> 
> ...


It is tough to find out facts that are usefull. Probably some issues come from modifications and potentialy a chainline wich is not ideal. Mine is XO1 and the frame is medium 17 in. I agree i ounce had a B-gap that was tricky to properly adjust. Now my fat is fine with a 10S 11-42 and so is my 27+. I was looking at the 11S 11-50 for my next bike because it is kind of similar to the 11-42 that i like but with an extra 50 teeth. From youtube, facebook and here it is obvious some are just making sales pitch.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

33red said:


> My 11 speeds had no issue of back pedaling since i bought it 22 months ago. I do not know what brand/model you are talking about?
> Mine is SRAM.


Has nothing to do with brand and everything to do with chainline and frame.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

HSracer said:


> They definitely had some good things to say, but it felt kind of like an advertisement to me


Yea always does, but if you go on and on about great shifting under power and then it's not true- you end up looking bad. So I'll assume that is pretty accurate.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

TwoTone said:


> Has nothing to do with brand and everything to do with chainline and frame.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Jonathan Stamler said:


> Yes. actually the cassette makes a really strong noise when pushing some weight .
> Mostly happening in the last 6 sprockets.
> Did anyone else experienced it?


Late to chime in but do you have the resin spacer behind the cassette?


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

......


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## Seance765 (Feb 1, 2014)

Hi guys,

I know it probably has beed discussed already, but I already purchase XTR M9100 derailleur, chain, cassette, shifter and micro spline free hub. Keep looking but can't find any site where they have the chainrings and crankset in stock (if anyone knows one please tell me ). 
That being said, can the system work with my XT M8000 1x 11speed chanring?

Thank you.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Nope and nope, the chainrings aren’t out yet, and it is a new spline interface.


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

cornice6 said:


> awesome as that's exactly my chainring on next sl cranks. planning on getting the xtr 12sp upgrade (shifter, rd and cassette). thanks!





TurboKoo said:


> Late to chime in but do you have the resin spacer behind the cassette?


I have all the parts either in hand or arriving this week, except for the elusive/unreleased chainring, which is 'expected' in January. I'm keen to install it all now but use my CRM90 chainring (on my 9020 cranks) in the interim. As the CRM90 is not the wide/narrow style I'm thinking it might work ok with the narrower(?) 9100 chain. Anyone experienced or heard of any good outcomes here? I haven't been able to find any teeth profile and chain width measurements online to make a judgement call myself.

Also, is anyone running the cassette without the nylon spacer and not getting creaking? I didn't get this spacer with my cassette so I am about to reach out to Wiggle to see how they can obtain one for me - I would hope that Shimano is sending spacers to all retailers of the first batches of cassettes. I note that Shimano has recently updated the cassette's manual to show the spacer now. Presumably it's a patch fix following feedback from early adopters, and that it's still safe to run the cassette without it. 
Thanks


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

richj8990 said:


> Wake me up when the Shimano 12-speed version trickles down to $500; otherwise I'll save up $450 for the SRAM GX 10-50 groupset. Makes no sense for most of us to immediately buy something well over $1000 when there are much cheaper equivalents. And that's coming from someone who loves Shimano and doesn't even like SRAM. The price difference is too great, at this time, not to consider SRAM.


I am sure that in a year or two the Shimano stuff will get cheaper. It took a while for the tech to trickle down to the cheaper models for Sram too. At first it was Eagle XX1 only, now you can get it all the way down (I am going GX Eagle soon myself).

Read all the way through this thread. I have no doubts it will be a great system, but I don't see it being superior to Sram, just on par (and several years late). I have Eagle X01 on my XC bike, it works flawlessly. If I got a bike that CAME with Shimano, I wouldn't change it either.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Sidewalk said:


> I am sure that in a year or two the Shimano stuff will get cheaper. It took a while for the tech to trickle down to the cheaper models for Sram too.


SRAM was pretty fast. OMG 12 speed wow, then a year later we had GX, and another year later NX. Compared to not just Shimano but previous SRAM groups that's pretty darn fast. Don't forget that the new freehub standard has to spread too. When Eagle first came out XD was already a pretty common and wide spread option even on low buck wheelsets.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Sidewalk said:


> I am sure that in a year or two the Shimano stuff will get cheaper. It took a while for the tech to trickle down to the cheaper models for Sram too. At first it was Eagle XX1 only, now you can get it all the way down (I am going GX Eagle soon myself).
> 
> Read all the way through this thread. I have no doubts it will be a great system, but I don't see it being superior to Sram, just on par (and several years late). I have Eagle X01 on my XC bike, it works flawlessly. If I got a bike that CAME with Shimano, I wouldn't change it either.


That not exactly true, no Eagle system works flawlessly. They all have the sync issue. Now if you consider that ok that's another story but it's sloppy engineering.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

TwoTone said:


> no Eagle system works flawlessly. They all have the sync issue.


Proof?

And your proof can't be all the forum threads where people can't set up the thing correctly. I can find a lot of those for Shimano products too. 

Yes narrow wide cogs on a cassette is a bit of a weird idea, but if you set up things correctly it works. 
Saying that it's an "issue" is like when people say that indexed shifting is finnicky...
Tolerances have been getting tighter and tighter over the years, you just need to pay more attention when adjusting things. It's not rocket science.

At this point your argument for XTR is that it's perfect because it's Shimano. 
It's a good argument tho because as we all know Shimano only makes perfect products. 

You proudly posted an advertisement video where they only said good things about XTR. Well those exist for Eagle too. 
All of this is just fanboyism really. I'm still waiting for real world experience and more technical info on the groupset not just the usual "Shimano was late to the game so that means the groupset has to be perfect" bullsh**t.  I'm not a fanboy or a hater of either brand, I just don't understand why some people automatically put the new XTR on a pedestal while barely knowing anything about it.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Never mind, stupid internet arguments.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

HollyBoni said:


> To be honest the whole 1x concept feels a bit band aid-y to me... But I guess you can't do better with a chain and a cassette.


This is the real issue.

Look...I don't have a 1x bike. I don't even have a 2x bike yet lol (I will convert one of them to 2x9 next month). But I've done the math, I've looked at 1x8, 1x9, 1x10, 1x11, and the best range is 3.6, 3.6, 4.2, and 4.5.

Right now, even without the 3rd chainring that I only use on pavement or fire roads, my range with two different cassettes (11-34 and 11-40) is either 4.5 or 5.3x. I need at least that much range for both climbing and flat stuff because I get up to the 32/11 top gear very fast and could use some extra top end above that. And I also crawl up level 4 10-12% grades with a gear combination that would be 0.69 at the most (0.55-0.65 is preferable). So for 1x it's either 10-50+ or nothing. 2x9 with 22/36 and 11-40 cassette is 6.0 range.

I look at entry-level bikes like the Diamondback Hook, and see it's 1x8 with a 32 chainring 11/32 cassette and I'm like, WTF is this, a poor man's shuttle lift / downhill bike? Makes no sense. How many beginners are going to climb a level 4 hill with a 32/32 ratio? 1x is a trend that should not apply to entry level bikes if they are not going to do the whole drivetrain right. It's worse than a band-aid at the lower bike levels, it's an open wound. 2x would have been much better for the Hook, and 2x9 doesn't exactly break the bank either. Or at least put an 11-40t cassette in back so they have a 0.80 granny gear instead of 1.0.

It's admirable that people climb with a 0.76 ratio (32/42) with 10- or 11-speeds. And I get that a downhill biker doesn't want the chain to fall off, so they prefer narrow-wide. But trying to make all mountain bikes 1x is not practical, it's just an ideological crusade to get rid of all front derailleurs.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

You are mostly correct imho. In the 60’s, I used one speed till five speeds became available. Delivering over 100 papers 365 required a robust but faster type bike. Then came the double and things got even better with a better range. So yea, 1X seems odd to me, even on my modded Farley with a 1X10-42. After decades of riding, what I need for speed is close ratios and big range. Now with 12 speeds starting to become the thing, this becomes even better. I use both Red eTap and Di2 XT in 2x systems and both derailures front and back on both systems are magical. And my chain has yet to come off. My understanding in the new eTap will be available in 1 and 2x. The new XTR 12 will support 1,2 or 3 rings. All great news as the front derailure lives on, in spite of SRAM early efforts to kill it, again imho.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

New XTR supports 1x and 2x and not 3x drivetrains. Even when you need to have different rear derailleurs because of the different slant angle.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

richj8990 said:


> This is the real issue.
> 
> Look...I don't have a 1x bike. I don't even have a 2x bike yet lol (I will convert one of them to 2x9 next month). But I've done the math, I've looked at 1x8, 1x9, 1x10, 1x11, and the best range is 3.6, 3.6, 4.2, and 4.5.


I'm on 1x now, i've had 1x10, 1x11, 1x12. There are pros and cons for every system, I think I prefer a 1x11 or 1x12 over a 2x or 3x. But that's just me personally.

But what I would prefer over 1x would be a belt driven gearbox. With all the issues worked out, compatibility with tons of bikes, and a sensible price tag. 

Might be complete nonsense but I feel like the engineers are maxing out what you can do with a chain, cassette, and derailleurs. Yeah there are improvements every generation, but we don't see massive changes like when indexed shifting came out.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

richj8990 said:


> This is the real issue.
> 
> Look...I don't have a 1x bike. I don't even have a 2x bike yet lol (I will convert one of them to 2x9 next month). But I've done the math, I've looked at 1x8, 1x9, 1x10, 1x11, and the best range is 3.6, 3.6, 4.2, and 4.5.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I am 61, my fat is 20 S 22-36, 11-42 that climbs
- my 27.5+ 20S, 44-32 was 11-36 but like my fat i switched to 11-42.
I only have one 11 S my 22 pounds hardtail, 29 in at 28, 10-42 and it limits a bit my top speed but i enjoy climbing so i accept that compromise.
I just sold a 2000 xtr 27 speeds it was great allmost allways on middle ring but full range.
To me it makes no sense the price and unproven 12S.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Lots of people think they need more than 32-11 or 32-10, but I've yet to see in a race where that's necessary, even DH races. If you put yourself in the easiest gear and pedal as hard as you can to the point where the bike is bobbing up and down as the tires compress due to the wild up and down of your legs at 90+rpm, then you are spinning out. If you aren't doing that in 32-11, you aren't really spinning out. You get more for your pedaling when you keep it in a lower gear and keep the cadence up, which might help explain this as well, but again, in races, at the top levels, I don't see where having this range makes people go faster, let along day to day. If I cruise down a hard road back to my house, yeah, I may be able to use it, but at those speeds you start to fight wind resistance significantly and that keeps your cadence from getting very high usually, unless it's just a crazy steep road.

I think this is one of the big reasons 1x drivetrains have become so entrenched. The simplicity is nice, the lighter weight is nice, freeing up the other side of the handlebar for dropper and light remotes is nice, but come to find out, we really didn't need those top end gears. I think the "I need more range" is mostly in people's head. I started out on 3x drivetrains with 11-30 cassettes. Then it went 11-32, then 11-34, then 11-36.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Jayem said:


> Lots of people think they need more than 32-11 or 32-10, but I've yet to see in a race where that's necessary, even DH races. If you put yourself in the easiest gear and pedal as hard as you can to the point where the bike is bobbing up and down as the tires compress due to the wild up and down of your legs at 90+rpm, then you are spinning out. If you aren't doing that in 32-11, you aren't really spinning out. You get more for your pedaling when you keep it in a lower gear and keep the cadence up, which might help explain this as well, but again, in races, at the top levels, I don't see where having this range makes people go faster, let along day to day. If I cruise down a hard road back to my house, yeah, I may be able to use it, but at those speeds you start to fight wind resistance significantly and that keeps your cadence from getting very high usually, unless it's just a crazy steep road.
> 
> I think this is one of the big reasons 1x drivetrains have become so entrenched. The simplicity is nice, the lighter weight is nice, freeing up the other side of the handlebar for dropper and light remotes is nice, but come to find out, we really didn't need those top end gears. I think the "I need more range" is mostly in people's head. I started out on 3x drivetrains with 11-30 cassettes. Then it went 11-32, then 11-34, then 11-36.


I think the real reason 1x is popular is more profits. They often put on heavy wheels and lower weight is more in theory. The other reason is cell phones. People believe it allways improves. That is BS. My seat post and saddle are 18 years and much better than that 400$ **** that is 
popular.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

33red said:


> I think the real reason 1x is popular is more profits. They often put on heavy wheels and lower weight is more in theory. The other reason is cell phones. People believe it allways improves That is BS. My seat post and saddle are 18 years and much better that that 400$ **** that is
> popular.


I have an abacus for sale, I'll give you a great deal!


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

TurboKoo said:


> New XTR supports 1x and 2x and not 3x drivetrains. Even when you need to have different rear derailleurs because of the different slant angle.


I'm not interested in anything other than 1x for the foreseeable future (it could change). But it is good to see that one of the manufacturers is still supporting the front derailuer.

I've come to appreciate close ratios on my road bike. The harder I ride, the more I focus on my performance, the more I care about that inbetween gear. I didn't notice it until I picked up a 2x8 adventure bike and tried doing prescribed training sessions on it with power (Vector pedals are easy to swap).



Jayem said:


> Lots of people think they need more than 32-11 or 32-10, but I've yet to see in a race where that's necessary, even DH races.


I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of spinning. THinking you have to do everything at 50 RPM. Looking at my ride yesterday on the MTB (cadence sensor only) and I was spinning 90+ RPM up the climbs with a healthy level of effort (not PR work, but hard). The steepest climb at 11% still had me averaging over 85 RPM.

I looked at a recent event I did, the finish has a downhill road section. I was spinning out at about 120 RPM for 32 MPH. I got up to 130 at one point, that was 35 MPH. I was tucked down as low as possible. I was trying to close the gap on the guy ahead of me (which I succeeded, then missed the final turn, doh!).

Look at your data and see how often you are really going that fast, then ask yourself "Do I really need to be able to pedal that fast?"


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

33red said:


> I think the real reason 1x is popular is more profits. They often put on heavy wheels and lower weight is more in theory. The other reason is cell phones. People believe it allways improves. That is BS. My seat post and saddle are 18 years and much better than that 400$ **** that is
> popular.


Sure...1x is more popular because cell phones.

Right.

That makes complete sense.

:skep:


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I still appreciate a FD for 2x on my hardtail. Just not enough gear range in a 1x system, and I dislike losing the high end. Can't stick a ring bigger than 36t on my hardtail without f'ing up the chainline, but a 42x11 is capable enough to hit 36 mph without my feet flying off the pedals. I require pavement to even break 30 mph with a 34x10. It feels like a waste to be not pedaling on a DH, because you have to spin at 80 rpm to even gain any speed... I'd be much more comfortable mashing at 40 rpm or so, to further speed up, as spinning any faster over rough terrain seems suicidal, especially considering suspension kickback.

I think 60 rpm is pretty efficient. Trying to spin any higher, and my body starts to risk overheating. It feels super inefficient doing anything over 60 when out-of-the-saddle. It's more like 40-80 rpm on the trails. I hate trying to climb in my bailout unless I'm just spinning casually to save my legs. All the technical climbs I do have better success rate in 34x36 (vs 34x42 or an easier/larger cog).

If you can't push a tall gear, that only tells me that you haven't been trying to. Those who can, probably just use such tall gears regularly, perhaps through CX or road biking. You get used to what you run.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

ninjichor said:


> If you can't push a tall gear, that only tells me that you haven't been trying to. Those who can, probably just use such tall gears regularly, perhaps through CX or road biking. You get used to what you run.


Even on road, CX, or gravel bikes I prefer lower gears. There is a shift in those disciplines too, a lot of people want lower gearing, and the manufacturers are responding.

We are all different, just because something works for me doesn't mean it has to work for you and that's fine. But it's pretty interesting how aggressively the manufacturers killed the top end gearing on MTBs.


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## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

Gearing has evolved, that's for sure. My first nicer road bike had 53/39 rings and a 13-23 cassette. The year prior, road bikes had 53/42 rings. So a low dropped to a wimpy 39x23. I did a lot of climbing in the two lowest gears and they worked well enough. I had no complains, really. And what difference would that have made? Shimano wasn't offering anything else!

My first nicer mtb had a 46/36/26 triple with a 13-30 cassette. I climbed the same hills, only off road, with a 26x30 as my lowest gear. Now, a low gear is 30 or 32x50. Times change.

The cost of mountain bikes has skyrocketed and therefore the average age of riders has increased as well, along with the need for lower gearing. Not to mention, the average weight of adults has ballooned quite a bit over the decades, again, necessitating lower gearing.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ninjichor said:


> It feels like a waste to be not pedaling on a DH


I can't remember the last time I really pedaled extensively on a downhill. Don't need to. Gravity takes care of speed. Maybe I'll pedal a little to recover speed that I've scrubbed for a particularly techy spot, but the bike has no problem accelerating to and often past the point where I'm comfortable. Start getting into the low 20's on a chunky downhill and I don't WANT to go any faster. That happens pretty easy just coasting.

The spots I use my taller gears is on pavement and on gravel when connecting bits of singletrack. And even then, I don't care to go faster than the low 20's.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

westernmtb said:


> Gearing has evolved, that's for sure. My first nicer road bike had 53/39 rings and a 13-23 cassette. The year prior, road bikes had 53/42 rings. So a low dropped to a wimpy 39x23. I did a lot of climbing in the two lowest gears and they worked well enough. I had no complains, really. And what difference would that have made? Shimano wasn't offering anything else!


I couldn't do it. I'm young and skinny, but gearing that high just doesn't make any sense to me. I started road biking on vintage stuff and the gearing was just horrible. It felt like I did waaay more work than I needed to and I never used the high end. 
Sometimes I don't want to push myself, I just want to go ride my bike and enjoy it. So the "wimp" aspect doesn't make sense to me.

Now you can get stock Shimano road groups with a 50/34 and an 11-34 cassette and it's considered pretty standard, and we are starting to see more and more sub compat cranksets. And of course there are things like the Wolftooth Road Link. Although i'm sure the popularity of gravel bikes has something to do with this.


----------



## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

As reference, who's ridden their bike from highway 68 to the laguna seca raceway for sea otter? I've ridden up from the ragsdale entrance and also via A Road. 

My current hardtail has a 44/32/22 crankset, 11-34 cassette. Using the 22 ring, I had a hard time maintaining my balance and momentum on the short but steepest sections of A Road I was riding so slowly. The lowest gear is 22x34. The lowest gear on eagle is 30x50. Is it even possible to maintain your balance using the lowest gear on Eagle?

Obviously, people are using the 30x50 but isn't this the lower limit on how low gears can go before you simply tip over due to lack of momentum?


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

westernmtb said:


> As reference, who's ridden their bike from highway 68 to the laguna seca raceway for sea otter? I've ridden up from the ragsdale entrance and also via A Road.
> 
> My current hardtail has a 44/32/22 crankset, 11-34 cassette. Using the 22 ring, I had a hard time maintaining my balance and momentum on the short but steepest sections of A Road I was riding so slowly. The lowest gear is 22x34. The lowest gear on eagle is 30x50. Is it even possible to maintain your balance using the lowest gear on Eagle?
> 
> Obviously, people are using the 30x50 but isn't this the lower limit on how low gears can go before you simply tip over due to lack of momentum?


We have to compare apples with apples.
My 27 speeds HT 2000 XTR was on 26x2.0
My 11 speeds HT is on 29x2.3 it was 32 with 10-42
switching to 28 in front just made it a great bike for me.
I am lean, i have endurance but i lack on the power side.
My fat had 22 in front with 36 in rear and i love it now that i switched to a 42.
With great tires i climb where many push.
Happy climbing to all !


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

westernmtb said:


> As reference, who's ridden their bike from highway 68 to the laguna seca raceway for sea otter? I've ridden up from the ragsdale entrance and also via A Road.
> 
> My current hardtail has a 44/32/22 crankset, 11-34 cassette. Using the 22 ring, I had a hard time maintaining my balance and momentum on the short but steepest sections of A Road I was riding so slowly. The lowest gear is 22x34. The lowest gear on eagle is 30x50. Is it even possible to maintain your balance using the lowest gear on Eagle?
> 
> Obviously, people are using the 30x50 but isn't this the lower limit on how low gears can go before you simply tip over due to lack of momentum?


If you look at a gear calculator, they aren't very different.
It also depends on how steep it is...the steeper it is, the lower gears you can use and maintain momentum.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

westernmtb said:


> Obviously, people are using the 30x50 but isn't this the lower limit on how low gears can go before you simply tip over due to lack of momentum?


I was running an oval 28t with Eagle a month ago. Even trying to go as light as possible on the climbs, I was still passing people who were forced to walk up the climb. Average of about 4 MPH at 75 RPM.

I put a 32t back on for XCO format racing. But while looking for power meters, I am narrowing my range to systems that will let me run lower than 32t for endurance racing.

One of my local races starts with a 3 mile, 2300' climb. I did it twice on my hardtail with 32x42, but I definitely want lower. I averaged 4 MPH with 70 RPM, and I was first to the top by two minutes (to be fair, it is a small event). If I could have been spinning closer to 90 I would have been much better off, and probably faster.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

If you spin 60 to 90 rpm then a 30x50 is easy to maintain balance and traction. I’m fastest when I can maintain 90ish rpms. I have hills that justify a super low gear and run a triple on my road bike. 
Also a 29x2.6 tire has a much bigger diameter then your old 26x2.1. This effectively raises the gear 2 or 3 shifts.
When standing to climb technical root and rock sections I use my 42 or 36 as the 50 gives me too much torque and not enough speed.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ninjichor said:


> I think 60 rpm is pretty efficient. Trying to spin any higher, and my body starts to risk overheating. It feels super inefficient doing anything over 60 when out-of-the-saddle. It's more like 40-80 rpm on the trails. I hate trying to climb in my bailout unless I'm just spinning casually to save my legs. All the technical climbs I do have better success rate in 34x36 (vs 34x42 or an easier/larger cog).
> 
> If you can't push a tall gear, that only tells me that you haven't been trying to. Those who can, probably just use such tall gears regularly, perhaps through CX or road biking. You get used to what you run.


It "feels" right to me to spin slower, but in a race when I force myself to spin lower gears faster, especially uphill, I do better over time and overall. I prefer pushing that taller gear and I will do it much of the time. I literally have to be "screaming" to myself during a race in my head to shift and get my RPM up, but I can't argue with the results.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

westernmtb said:


> Obviously, people are using the 30x50 but isn't this the lower limit on how low gears can go before you simply tip over due to lack of momentum?


Yeah, if I hit any obstacle while climbing that's just too low to have enough momentum and the torque is too high which would make me spin out/stall. That said, if there were a lot of smooth sections during said steep climb and that would let me keep my RPM up higher, I'd do it in a race, but I'd have to shift before the obstacles to make sure I didn't stall out. That gets a little tricky because you don't want to be the racer that stalls out on a tech feature uphill. For me, those kind of sustained grades would be above 25%.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

ninjichor said:


> If you can't push a tall gear, that only tells me that you haven't been trying to. Those who can, probably just use such tall gears regularly, perhaps through CX or road biking. You get used to what you run.


This is simply wrong. You haven't seen a pro grinding a climb in 15+ years. Spinning is more efficient and shifts the load away from your legs to your lungs. Sharing the load allows you to ride longer and faster.

People that don't train or never train cadence tend to default to slower RPM's. Having the right gear is always better and faster overall.

Standing climbing, especially on technical terrain is different. It requires a higher gear to maintain traction and accelerate over obstacles.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

alexbn921 said:


> This is simply wrong. You haven't seen a pro grinding a climb in 15+ years. Spinning is more efficient and shifts the load away from your legs to your lungs. Sharing the load allows you to ride longer and faster.
> 
> People that don't train or never train cadence tend to default to slower RPM's. Having the right gear is always better and faster overall.
> 
> Standing climbing, especially on technical terrain is different. It requires a higher gear to maintain traction and accelerate over obstacles.


That's the other thing I've been doing over the last few years of racing with good results, mentally screaming to myself to NOT stand up during a climb, overtake, crest, etc. Any time I stand it always takes way more energy out of me for the extremely short gain, if there is any gain at all. I still use it, but very very limited and almost never now. Staying in the saddle almost always pays off for me. I train intervals and everything else in the saddle and it works.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> If you can't push a tall gear, that only tells me that you haven't been trying to. Those who can, probably just use such tall gears regularly, perhaps through CX or road biking. You get used to what you run.


You push taller gears on a road bike because you're rolling on light, skinny tires and smooth roads. For me 34/11 is plenty of gear for big fat tires off road but would be inadequate for 25c's on pavement.


----------



## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

hi guys,

I try to install the xtr 12 shifter, chain, cassette and rear derailleur on my epic sworks with roval control sl 2018 wheels.

but it's not working, you can see in this video that when I put pressure for lock the wheel the freehub is hard to move and the freehub is not working.





I test also with another roval wheel, roval control sl 2015 and I have also this kind of problem.






you guys try xtr 12 micro spline with roval wheels?

you have ideas for how to solve my problem?


----------



## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

Why did it take nearly a year for xtr to become available on the market after the announcement?


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Do you have the microspline free hub body?


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

louit32 said:


> hi guys,
> 
> I try to install the xtr 12 shifter, chain, cassette and rear derailleur on my epic sworks with roval control sl 2018 wheels.
> 
> ...


I know Rovals use DT Swiss internals, but did you ask Specialized if the DT Swiss Micro spline would work with their wheels or did you assume?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

rideit said:


> Do you have the microspline free hub body?


How would he have gotten the cassette on without one?


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

TwoTone said:


> How would he have gotten the cassette on without one?


thats kinda my point...


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

TwoTone said:


> I know Rovals use DT Swiss internals, but did you ask Specialized if the DT Swiss Micro spline would work with their wheels or did you assume?


Specialized Australia advised me that the DT micro spline body will work with the current Roval SLs (but they hadn't tried it themselves) and I am yet to try this swap over myself. I ordered the micro spline body from Germany and am due to receive it later this week (it landed at the local postal depot on Monday). I hope to report back by the weekend.

loui32 - are you using the micro spline end cap that comes with the micro spline body? And are you using the plastic low spacer that now comes with the cassette? The spacer is shipping with later batches of the cassette but was missing from the earlier production runs. I'm hoping we get some more discussion on this spacer on this forum in the coming days. Shimano has updated its info here: http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-CS-M9100-4376B.pdf


----------



## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

S-Works Boy said:


> Specialized Australia advised me that the DT micro spline body will work with the current Roval SLs (but they hadn't tried it themselves) and I am yet to try this swap over myself. I ordered the micro spline body from Germany and am due to receive it later this week (it landed at the local postal depot on Monday). I hope to report back by the weekend.
> 
> loui32 - are you using the micro spline end cap that comes with the micro spline body? And are you using the plastic low spacer that now comes with the cassette? The spacer is shipping with later batches of the cassette but was missing from the earlier production runs. I'm hoping we get some more discussion on this spacer on this forum in the coming days. Shimano has updated its info here: http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-CS-M9100-4376B.pdf


You need to use the axle spacer that comes with the DT Swiss micro spline freehub body. I put one on a DT 240 hub last night without the Shimano Y1X-401500 low spacer and I have no binding.


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

tom tom said:


> You need to use the axle spacer that comes with the DT Swiss micro spline freehub body. I put one on a DT 240 hub last night without the Shimano Y1X-401500 low spacer and I have no binding.


hi,
you have an "extra" spacer with your micro spline?
my wheel was with a xd driver and I let the the same spacer inside?
a spacer like this one:
https://www.bikeonlineshop.net/dt-swiss/freehub-preload-sleeve

do you have a photo of the spacer or the reference of the micro spline spacer?

I had nothing in my order.

thanks


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

S-Works Boy said:


> Specialized Australia advised me that the DT micro spline body will work with the current Roval SLs (but they hadn't tried it themselves) and I am yet to try this swap over myself. I ordered the micro spline body from Germany and am due to receive it later this week (it landed at the local postal depot on Monday). I hope to report back by the weekend.
> 
> loui32 - are you using the micro spline end cap that comes with the micro spline body? And are you using the plastic low spacer that now comes with the cassette? The spacer is shipping with later batches of the cassette but was missing from the earlier production runs. I'm hoping we get some more discussion on this spacer on this forum in the coming days. Shimano has updated its info here: http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-CS-M9100-4376B.pdf


hi, I don't have the low spacer.... this can be my problem?


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

This is what I got and used to install 9100 10-51 cogset

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/dt-swiss-240-350-shimano-xtr-12-speed-micro-spline-rotor-kit-780323


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

tom tom said:


> This is what I got and used to install 9100 10-51 cogset
> 
> https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/dt-swiss-240-350-shimano-xtr-12-speed-micro-spline-rotor-kit-780323


Ok for me I got this
https://r2-bike.com/SHIMANO-XTR-Upg...icro-Spline-Freehub-Body-Cassette-10-51-Teeth

my question is , the freehub micro spline kit include:
- the freehub
- the cap

and that's all or you have also a third part in the kit like a spacer, you mentioned "axle spacer ", it's the third part?

thanks


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

If you got the freehub body and right end cap, it should work........you can not use the XD driver right end cap. The axle spacer is the right end cap.


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

ok thanks, I use the micro spline right end cap but I have this problem.

I am going to contact r2bike shop tomorrow.


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## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

Anyone own both Eagle and XTR who can provide a comparo review?


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## Furukawa (Dec 26, 2018)

westernmtb said:


> Anyone own both Eagle and XTR who can provide a comparo review?


https://enduro-mtb.com/en/shimano-xtr-m9100-vs-sram-x01-eagle-review/


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

louit32 said:


> ok thanks, I use the micro spline right end cap but I have this problem.
> 
> I am going to contact r2bike shop tomorrow.


Did you make sure the small cogs are indexed correctly?


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

yes, the problem is still here when I try without the cassette.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

louit32 said:


> yes, the problem is still here when I try without the cassette.


Are you sure the small springs are installed correctly and not upside? Did you try installing your old XD driver to see if you still have the same problem?


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

The problem is the flange on the microspline driver. I just got mine and it doesn't fit on any of my DT or Roval wheels. I put it in a drill press and turned down the flange. Works on all of them now. This thing is definitely not compatible with older hubs.
The flange at the back needs to be the same size as the back part with DT Swiss printed on it for it to work.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

andynunn said:


> The problem is the flange on the microspline driver. I just got mine and it doesn't fit on any of my DT or Roval wheels. I put it in a drill press and turned down the flange. Works on all of them now. This thing is definitely not compatible with older hubs.
> The flange at the back needs to be the same size as the back part with DT Swiss printed on it for it to work.


Thanks for your input...............


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

I have XCM1200 wheels and also ordered body + end cap from R2bike and it works as it should. I did not receive resin spacer but let’s see what local Shimano sales office has to say.


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

reply from R2bike, they have some customers with tgis problem. We need to wait next week because dt swiss is closed (xmas break!).

I think it's maybe a problem from dt, some production problems.


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

andynunn said:


> The problem is the flange on the microspline driver. I just got mine and it doesn't fit on any of my DT or Roval wheels. I put it in a drill press and turned down the flange. Works on all of them now. This thing is definitely not compatible with older hubs.
> The flange at the back needs to be the same size as the back part with DT Swiss printed on it for it to work.


yes the flange touches the hub.

You have a photo of your modified driver?

you think that the driver is compatible with "news" hubs? dt release new hubs?


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

Sorry, no.
For mine, the old driver had a diameter of 37.24mm while the new flange was 40.64mm.
The wider part of the base that the cassette rests against was 37.2mm so I just removed the flange down to that diameter.
The sealing face is actually the back so this doesn't have any effect on that.

I have some 2015 XM1501 wheels based on 240 hubs and they are the same. I'm not sure about the newest ones. I looked at pictures on the web site and they all looked the same as mine on the straight pull hubs.


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## Back2MTB (Jun 4, 2014)

Sparticus said:


> Explain, please. Mine performs flawlessly. Thanks.
> =sParty


Same here, xtm8000 11-46 works perfectly for me and is a stellar value to boot.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Back2MTB said:


> Same here, xtm8000 11-46 works perfectly for me and is a stellar value to boot.


No one here is talking about XT 8000 hubs or cassettes, so what's your point?


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## Seance765 (Feb 1, 2014)

Any sign of a release date for the chainrings and crank set?

Thx.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

How about a US release for any of it?


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## Oldsport (Nov 28, 2018)

My dealer is saying the drive train will be in next week. However, this is the same dealership that thought they would get the drive train in 4 weeks ago. Two weeks ago they told me early January.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I've been searching for the best deal on a 4-piece upgrade kit (1x12, 10-51).

The best deal I've found is Bike-Discount.de, about $554 US including shipping. However, they are not currently in stock.

The next best I've found is bike-components.de, which ends up around $605 US, shipped.

The best deal on ebay looks like $674 from China.

Has anyone found any other similar deals? Ideally I'd like to match the Bike Discount price without having to wait.


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

I know Bike Components offer a price match. Called "price alert" or something similar. You might look in to it.


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

jabrabu said:


> I've been searching for the best deal on a 4-piece upgrade kit (1x12, 10-51).
> 
> The best deal I've found is Bike-Discount.de, about $554 US including shipping. However, they are not currently in stock.
> 
> ...


I had been tring to buy an XTR Rear Derailleur from Chain Reaction before they stopped selling SHimano to North AMerica, but they were out of stock until new years eve day, then it seemed to ban me from seeing Shimano products a day early. Somehow I browsed the site listing another country as my country of origin, put it in my cart, and got it shipped to me for just over $200 CAD.....not bad!


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## Shadow4eva (Jul 11, 2017)

Twiggy said:


> I had been tring to buy an XTR Rear Derailleur from Chain Reaction before they stopped selling SHimano to North AMerica, but they were out of stock until new years eve day, then it seemed to ban me from seeing Shimano products a day early. Somehow I browsed the site listing another country as my country of origin, put it in my cart, and got it shipped to me for just over $200 CAD.....not bad!


That's because the UK is hours ahead of any state of the US, timezone difference and all. It was New Year's Eve to you people, but in many places elsewhere, it was already New Year's Day itself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Quality Bicycle Products Inc is saying 3-29 before shipping 2019 XTR


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

jabrabu said:


> I've been searching for the best deal on a 4-piece upgrade kit (1x12, 10-51).
> 
> The best deal I've found is Bike-Discount.de, about $554 US including shipping. However, they are not currently in stock.
> 
> ...


I have a four piece ispec ev 10-51 kit


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

I (LBS & myself) installed the new drivetrain today. I got the 10-51, chain, rear der, DT Swiss freehub & Cap, and the 4 pot brakes. The local Shimano rep had informed him that the new XTR chain would work on my XT 8000 chain ring...it did not. The new XTR chain links are still the same length but there is enough of a change on how they are chamfer'd internally where only 2-3 links would lay flat then would rise up the rest of the chain ring and not settle into the teeth. 
We ended up installing a quite worn XT 8000 chain ring and throwing on a SRAM Eagle chain to get everything working. I wanted to get the new XTR cranks & ring but no one in the world seems to have those in stock. Hoping my current setup works until inventory builds up.

FWIW...I got all my stuff from bike-discount.de but ordered it in early Dec.

I'll test it out some tomorrow.

Cheers,
Mike


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## Kuttermax (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks for the info Mike. That's super helpful. I had concerns about using other chainrings with the new chain and now it seems warranted.

It will be interesting if some third party solutions become available that will work with the new Shimano 12 speed chain but with older cranksets.


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

Kuttermax said:


> Thanks for the info Mike. That's super helpful. I had concerns about using other chainrings with the new chain and now it seems warranted.
> 
> It will be interesting if some third party solutions become available that will work with the new Shimano 12 speed chain but with older cranksets.


You are welcome...I too really wanted to use the new Shimano XTR chain as I like them a bit better then SRAM.

Cheers,
Mike


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

mbcracken said:


> I (LBS & myself) installed the new drivetrain today. I got the 10-51, chain, rear der, DT Swiss freehub & Cap, and the 4 pot brakes. The local Shimano rep had informed him that the new XTR chain would work on my XT 8000 chain ring...it did not. The new XTR chain links are still the same length but there is enough of a change on how they are chamfer'd internally where only 2-3 links would lay flat then would rise up the rest of the chain ring and not settle into the teeth.
> We ended up installing a quite worn XT 8000 chain ring and throwing on a SRAM Eagle chain to get everything working. I wanted to get the new XTR cranks & ring but no one in the world seems to have those in stock. Hoping my current setup works until inventory builds up.
> 
> FWIW...I got all my stuff from bike-discount.de but ordered it in early Dec.
> ...


Thanks for the feedback Mike. Is your XT M8000 series chainring the original CRM80 model with 'large teeth' or the updated CRM81 model with narrow-wide teeth? I have an XTR CRM90 chainring that I am hoping will work with the new chain until the proper chainrings become available. 
My remaining groupset parts are held up in customs (2 weeks!) so I can't report back yet on the micro spline body fitting Roval Control SL's, chain working on a CRM90 ring, etc. Hopefully they will be delivered next week...sigh.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

mbcracken said:


> I (LBS & myself) installed the new drivetrain today. I got the 10-51, chain, rear der, DT Swiss freehub & Cap, and the 4 pot brakes. The local Shimano rep had informed him that the new XTR chain would work on my XT 8000 chain ring...it did not. The new XTR chain links are still the same length but there is enough of a change on how they are chamfer'd internally where only 2-3 links would lay flat then would rise up the rest of the chain ring and not settle into the teeth.
> We ended up installing a quite worn XT 8000 chain ring and throwing on a SRAM Eagle chain to get everything working. I wanted to get the new XTR cranks & ring but no one in the world seems to have those in stock. Hoping my current setup works until inventory builds up.
> 
> FWIW...I got all my stuff from bike-discount.de but ordered it in early Dec.
> ...


Good to know. I was planning on keeping my Absolute Black chainring but it looks like it may not work when I upgrade. . . .


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

scatterbrained said:


> Good to know. I was planning on keeping my Absolute Black chainring but it looks like it may not work when I upgrade. . . .


It may be ok, I just got a M9100 chain and it fits on a Wolftooth ring just like normal. I haven't ridden it yet, probably give it a try on Saturday.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

scatterbrained said:


> Good to know. I was planning on keeping my Absolute Black chainring but it looks like it may not work when I upgrade. . . .


Me too, although my Absolute Black chainring is old enough that it might be a good time to replace it. I have RaceFace Next R cranks, so I need a chainring that will install on those.


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

S-Works Boy said:


> Thanks for the feedback Mike. Is your XT M8000 series chainring the original CRM80 model with 'large teeth' or the updated CRM81 model with narrow-wide teeth? I have an XTR CRM90 chainring that I am hoping will work with the new chain until the proper chainrings become available.
> My remaining groupset parts are held up in customs (2 weeks!) so I can't report back yet on the micro spline body fitting Roval Control SL's, chain working on a CRM90 ring, etc. Hopefully they will be delivered next week...sigh.


I tried two different XT rings both of which are the CRM81's...one was 32T which was newer and a well worn 30T. Both did not work with the new XTR chain. I did test out a worn 32T Wolftooth elliptical (https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/chainrings/products/elliptical-104-bcd-chainrings) and the new XTR chain rested nicely on all the teeth for a full wrap. I didn't have this elliptical with me when installing at the LBS. I might try it out later but not sure how the new XTR rear der will like an elliptical for shifting.

Cheers,
Mike


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## hot_sonee (Nov 3, 2015)

XTR 12 chain, derailleur, shifter with older xtr cranks and absolute black oval. Works ok but quick link is a problem with front chainring until worn in. I have chain guide installed, but without it, the front would slip off the AB oval on the largest rear gears. After a couple rides, everything is smooth.


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

Works fine with the OneUp chainrings apart from the quick link. The link seems a little narrower than the standard chain links causing it to ride up on the wider tooth of the narrow wide. I replaced the XTR link with an Eagle Powerlink and it all works fine. Just another data point.


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## Back2MTB (Jun 4, 2014)

Will the xtr 12 speed shifter work with a stock xtm8000 11 speed drivetrain to start in 11spd setting? Shifter is typically the biggest upgrade in the xtr line, looking forward to checking it out


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Back2MTB said:


> Will the xtr 12 speed shifter work with a stock xtm8000 11 speed drivetrain to start in 11spd setting? Shifter is typically the biggest upgrade in the xtr line, looking forward to checking it out


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Back2MTB said:


> Will the xtr 12 speed shifter work with a stock xtm8000 11 speed drivetrain to start in 11spd setting? Shifter is typically the biggest upgrade in the xtr line, looking forward to checking it out


I would doubt it as the spacing is different. The new 11 speed still has the 12 speed spacing, they just dropped a cog which allowed them to make a wider flange hub.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

andynunn said:


> Works fine with the OneUp chainrings apart from the quick link. The link seems a little narrower than the standard chain links causing it to ride up on the wider tooth of the narrow wide. I replaced the XTR link with an Eagle Powerlink and it all works fine. Just another data point.


Nobody ever promised it would be an easy life as a fanboy, but dammit Shimano. Why do you always find a way to plop a little stinker in the punchbowl? Installing my M9100 chain tonight, in place of an Eagle X01 chain. Yes, the Shimano quicklink sucks. Pedaling on the workstand, it throws the chain off of my Wolftooth chainring. Unlike the Eagle quicklink, it doesn't have the inside plate chamfered groove for the wide part of the wide teeth, even though the rest of the chain does. So it is very likely to be tight at the quicklink in service. I am curious if Shimano is just running a narrower wide tooth than is the norm on their new 1x rings, or WTF they were thinking?

On the regular chain links, it also looks like the wide tooth chamfered groove is tighter linearly than the Eagle's, which will make it less likely to fit every chainring, which is particularly comical that some of you guys are reporting that it struggles to fit Shimano's own previous chainrings. From the rings I have laying around, mostly Wolftooth and a couple of cheapos, it fits them fine but with little room to spare. Otherwise fairly similar to the Eagle chain, except it has an inside and an outside like some previous Shimano chains and detail differences in the various chamfers. And you will likely need to buy an Eagle quicklink to go with it.


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

I am a complete sucker for the latest and greatest aftermarket pieces and supporting the small guys. At one point my drivetrain consisted of RF SixC cranks, WT Oval ring, XTR mechs, E13 TSR cassette and KMC chain. I didnt know how poorly my drivetrain was performing until I went homogeneous with Eagle. Until I can get my hands on the full set, I am (im)patiently sitting on the sideline rather than guinea pigging it, haha.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

tdc_worm said:


> I am a complete sucker for the latest and greatest aftermarket pieces and supporting the small guys. At one point my drivetrain consisted of RF SixC cranks, WT Oval ring, XTR mechs, E13 TSR cassette and KMC chain. I didnt know how poorly my drivetrain was performing until I went homogeneous with Eagle. Until I can get my hands on the full set, I am (im)patiently sitting on the sideline rather than guinea pigging it, haha.


I am similarly enthusiastic about supporting the small guys, the ones that deserve it. SRAM and Shimano have left some significant gaps in the marketplace over the years and then been slow to react. But if I can say this without sounding too harsh, that poor performing drivetrain is on you. There have been and still are hodgepodge combinations that work at least as well as pureblood drivetrains for certain performance goals.

Personally, I am not a fan of Eagle as a complete drivetrain, I have ridden it just enough times to have little desire to run it on my bikes. And unfortunately Shimano has really taken their sweet time about correcting their course from completely missing the initial 1x boom. But I have a drivetrain that I am very happy with until the M9100 stuff is widely available. And even then it is the new cassettes that I am most interested in.

I do agree that M9100 looks like a very solid full system solution for people that like to keep it all consistent, and it's the first group in a very long time that I expect I could happily run that way myself if presented with a so equipped bike.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

andynunn said:


> Works fine with the OneUp chainrings apart from the quick link. The link seems a little narrower than the standard chain links causing it to ride up on the wider tooth of the narrow wide. I replaced the XTR link with an Eagle Powerlink and it all works fine. Just another data point.


Same here, I have a new 30 tooth Race Face narrow wide and the Shimano quick link would ride up on the chainring, but with the Sram Eagle quick link it works great...


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

Velodonata said:


> I am similarly enthusiastic about supporting the small guys, the ones that deserve it. SRAM and Shimano have left some significant gaps in the marketplace over the years and then been slow to react. But if I can say this without sounding too harsh, that poor performing drivetrain is on you. There have been and still are hodgepodge combinations that work at least as well as pureblood drivetrains for certain performance goals.
> 
> Personally, I am not a fan of Eagle as a complete drivetrain, I have ridden it just enough times to have little desire to run it on my bikes. And unfortunately Shimano has really taken their sweet time about correcting their course from completely missing the initial 1x boom. But I have a drivetrain that I am very happy with until the M9100 stuff is widely available. And even then it is the new cassettes that I am most interested in.
> 
> I do agree that M9100 looks like a very solid full system solution for people that like to keep it all consistent, and it's the first group in a very long time that I expect I could happily run that way myself if presented with a so equipped bike.


doesnt sound too harsh at all. what it does sound like is typical forum banter trying to win the internet and self bloviation based off of limited or incomplete data. you win.

in an effort to not digress....XTR for the win, in a homogeneous fashion for me.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

tdc_worm said:


> doesnt sound too harsh at all. what it does sound like is typical forum banter trying to win the internet and self bloviation based off of limited or incomplete data. you win.


I'm glad you didn't take it personally.


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

Anyone had any luck obtaining this low spacer post sale? I got mine from bike-discount about 3 weeks ago and wasn’t included. After inquiring, they’re only telling me that “it’s not available as a spare part yet”. Thanks.


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

Velodonata said:


> I'm glad you didn't take it personally.


That we can agree on.

Cross pollination of drivetrain components most often can and will work well together, at least for the short term. I've had both success and failure with that approach. What I haven't had failure with is a homogeneous approach, even in spite of my my apparent lack of drivetrain tuning skills. Without belaboring the point, reverting to an 1195 cassette and to a sram chain resolved the issue every single time. The performance issues were related to durability and premature wear, not to limit screw adjustments...confirmed by more than one mechanic.

But I digress....we have options and can customize as we individually see fit. If it works for [the collective] you, fantastic.

Back to your regularly programmed XTR content....


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

OBieMTB said:


> Anyone had any luck obtaining this low spacer post sale? I got mine from bike-discount about 3 weeks ago and wasn't included. After inquiring, they're only telling me that "it's not available as a spare part yet". Thanks.


Well here's the part number for the Low Spacer.... Y1X401500


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

Thank you Tom Tom!

If anyone comes across a contact or something, please let me know; Bike-discount isn’t being a whole lot of help.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

I have just finished my bikes. Seems to me I've been working quite a bit last year and Santa Claus remembered me. 
No spacers behind cassette but call to Shimano sales office confirmed that those will be delivered to me next week. 
Trek is missing chainring, I have XTR on order but also ordered Absolute Black to get it out faster. 
Cannondale is ready to go.


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

Do you have Shimano office phone number by any chance?


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

I don’t think you want to call to Sweden.


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

I called Germany today...


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

OBieMTB said:


> I called Germany today...


Danke dir


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

Uhm... they spoke English at Bike-Discount. Anyway, I did call the USA offices and they told me that the spacers were 2 months out. Thanks for the idea though, I dunno why I didn’t think of it before.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

OBieMTB said:


> Uhm... they spoke English at Bike-Discount. Anyway, I did call the USA offices and they told me that the spacers were 2 months out. Thanks for the idea though, I dunno why I didn't think of it before.


I'm guessing that all the XTR 9100 is still two months out in the USA............


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## thebradjohns (Jul 29, 2017)

Anyone know if the new 12sp XTR rear mech will work with XT M8000 11sp group? My 11sp XT mech is toast and lbs don't have any but do have 12sp in stock. Would look to upgrade to full 9100 down the track.


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

andynunn said:


> Sorry, no.
> For mine, the old driver had a diameter of 37.24mm while the new flange was 40.64mm.
> The wider part of the base that the cassette rests against was 37.2mm so I just removed the flange down to that diameter.
> The sealing face is actually the back so this doesn't have any effect on that.
> ...

















I finally recieved my parts today and took these pics to show how the micro spline flange is too big to fit 'into' a Roval hub shell. From what I can see with DT's own hubs the free hub body sits level/flush with the hub shell (e.g XMC 1200's mentioned above), but on Rovals the free hub body is slightly recessed into the hub shell. Roval owners are going to need to machine off the flange like Andy has done or hope DT makes a flangeless version ASAP. There must be other OEM hubs that recess the freehub body too. Anyway, I'm off to find a metal lathe...grrrrrr


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

Does anyone have a guess on when the XT-12 speed version comes out? i mean XT as in 8000-series without the racy "R".
I'm sure it is already developed and just held back for marketing purposes. 

Maybe past history of how they staggered the 11-speed introduction could be a hint. 

XTR is a bit pricey for me and I could live with a bit more weight. 

the problem when googling for XT 12 speed is that Google always assumes I just forgot the "R" and shows me XTR stuff....


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

HerrKaLeun said:


> Does anyone have a guess on when the XT-12 speed version comes out? i mean XT as in 8000-series without the racy "R".
> I'm sure it is already developed and just held back for marketing purposes.
> 
> Maybe past history of how they staggered the 11-speed introduction could be a hint.
> ...


Sounds like you answered your own question


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

HerrKaLeun said:


> Does anyone have a guess on when the XT-12 speed version comes out? i mean XT as in 8000-series without the racy "R".
> I'm sure it is already developed and just held back for marketing purposes.
> 
> Maybe past history of how they staggered the 11-speed introduction could be a hint.
> ...


2 seasons would be my guess (before you can buy them)
OEM spec in one.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

HerrKaLeun said:


> Does anyone have a guess on when the XT-12 speed version comes out? i mean XT as in 8000-series without the racy "R".
> I'm sure it is already developed and just held back for marketing purposes.


Shimano has always, like clockwork, released their groups with a year delay between. So XTR->XT->SLX(or LX)->Deore->Lower end.

They didn't even budge when they were cought with their pants down over 10 speed and just refreshed XTR/XT/SLX series with 10 speed variants.

We know we get new Saint this year and I gather 12 speed XT is also on the menu.


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## EnMac (May 20, 2004)

I have just installed shimano 12 speed cassette, shifter, derailleur and chain with a RaceFace cinch crankset. Initially I got the same problem as others in that the shimano quicklink was pretty tight on the chainring and tended to derail the chain. However, that was with the derailleur clutch off, once I put the clutch on, the extra tension pulls the quicklink further onto the chainring teeth and runs without dropping. I haven't ridden the bike yet, but that should increase the chain tension even more and I am hoping it will run OK. Will try it out tomorrow.


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

EnMac said:


> I have just installed shimano 12 speed cassette, shifter, derailleur and chain with a RaceFace cinch crankset. Initially I got the same problem as others in that the shimano quicklink was pretty tight on the chainring and tended to derail the chain. However, that was with the derailleur clutch off, once I put the clutch on, the extra tension pulls the quicklink further onto the chainring teeth and runs without dropping. I haven't ridden the bike yet, but that should increase the chain tension even more and I am hoping it will run OK. Will try it out tomorrow.


This is how I've been running my setup for about 3 weeks now and haven't had any chain issues.


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## Jonathan Stamler (Aug 29, 2015)

Had the same issue with Bike-Discount. 
They didn't understand what I was talking about, asking me to send them the cassette. only after sending them a picture of the missing spacer, they contacted shimano and a few days later told me they have sent the part( will take a month or so to get here). 
In the meantime I managed to get the part from the local Shimano dealer who received them a week before. basically it is a white thin spacer that sits on the back of the cassette. it is there only to prevent the extreme noise. embarrassing for Shimano, this is all I can say.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

EnMac said:


> I have just installed shimano 12 speed cassette, shifter, derailleur and chain with a RaceFace cinch crankset. Initially I got the same problem as others in that the shimano quicklink was pretty tight on the chainring and tended to derail the chain. However, that was with the derailleur clutch off, once I put the clutch on, the extra tension pulls the quicklink further onto the chainring teeth and runs without dropping. I haven't ridden the bike yet, but that should increase the chain tension even more and I am hoping it will run OK. Will try it out tomorrow.


Or you could just use a Sram Eagle Quicklink.


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

S-Works Boy said:


> View attachment 1232467
> 
> View attachment 1232468
> 
> I finally recieved my parts today and took these pics to show how the micro spline flange is too big to fit 'into' a Roval hub shell. From what I can see with DT's own hubs the free hub body sits level/flush with the hub shell (e.g XMC 1200's mentioned above), but on Rovals the free hub body is slightly recessed into the hub shell. Roval owners are going to need to machine off the flange like Andy has done or hope DT makes a flangeless version ASAP. There must be other OEM hubs that recess the freehub body too. Anyway, I'm off to find a metal lathe...grrrrrr


hi, I had the same problem with my roval hub. I finish to machine the flange.








after the problem is gone.

Dt swiss replies to the shop that micro spline freehub is compatible only with the lastest dt hub and that dt don't know exactly the specs of roval hubs... for dt the micro spline in only for the latest dt hub.


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

tom tom said:


> Or you could just use a Sram Eagle Quicklink.


I have xtr 12 speed with a xx1 crank and the same problem with the shimano quicklink. I mount a sram eagle quicklink and now it's ok.


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

Jonathan Stamler said:


> Had the same issue with Bike-Discount.
> They didn't understand what I was talking about, asking me to send them the cassette. only after sending them a picture of the missing spacer, they contacted shimano and a few days later told me they have sent the part( will take a month or so to get here).
> In the meantime I managed to get the part from the local Shimano dealer who received them a week before. basically it is a white thin spacer that sits on the back of the cassette. it is there only to prevent the extreme noise. embarrassing for Shimano, this is all I can say.


I have this cassette without the spacer, I don't understant the role of the spacer, can you explain?


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

I try yesterday my bike with the xtr 12 speed and I struggle to set up the system.

I follow manual instruction (limit screws and B tension ok, cable....).

when I change a gear, I have sometimes 2 gears changed for one click and at the end my shifter is quicker at the last speed (8 clicks for the 12 speed for example).

It's like speed 12-click-speed 11- click- speed 9....
and impossible for me to rech speed 10.


I need to change something in the shifter?

I had before xtr 10 and 11speed, It was much easier!


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

louit32 - nice job removing the flange!


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

have you checked the hanger alignment? 12 speed is very sensitive.


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

I suggest making sure the shifter is at it's high limit (least cable pull) and making sure the inner cable is pulled tight before attaching at the RD. If that's all good then look for drag in the cable, maybe a kink or something. The angle for the inner cable out of the RD is pretty extreme and the dumb coated cable starts to chafe almost immediately through the little plastic noodle. 
I found the setup with the XTR about a thousand times easier than Eagle. Took about ten minutes.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Is the switch on the bottom of the shifter set to 12 speed?


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

S-Works Boy said:


> louit32 - nice job removing the flange!


in fact, one gy here in this topic explain this option then one nice guy sent me an email with everything explained.


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

tom tom said:


> Is the switch on the bottom of the shifter set to 12 speed?


yes , set to 12 speed.

I'm going to check hanger and cable.


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## EnMac (May 20, 2004)

tom tom said:


> Or you could just use a Sram Eagle Quicklink.


I rode the bike today with the Shimano quicklink and now its fine even without the clutch engaged. I think the shimano quicklinks are just a bit tight when new but soon ease off with use. Still going to order some Eagle links though just to be on the safe side


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

I also got some CNC'ing done today and my Rovals are good to go!


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

S-Works Boy said:


> I also got some CNC'ing done today and my Rovals are good to go!
> View attachment 1232829
> 
> View attachment 1232830


nice, the set up is easy for you? on my epic 2018 I am struggling.


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

Turns out I did not get the spacer with my cassette...nor did I get the low volume spacer in my backup cassette. MY LBS just called Shimano and he should get two volume spacers for me by early next week. The fine folks at Shimano are aware of the problem of missing spacers. I am guessing this is the cause of excessive creaking when putting the power down too.

I did just remove the cassette from the freehub body and really nice to see no hints of any marring in the microspline freehub body. The new lock ring design sure makes it a bit tougher to remove then in years past.

Cheers,
Mike


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

ok, here is the XTR 12 speed with a full SRAM Eagle drivetrain, working just fine. Anyone planning to use it in that combination?


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

"Working Fine":madman:
Unless someone measures each step to confirm that they are exactly the same I highly advise against doing this. Most likely you will have several crap shifts across the range from the small differences in leverage ratio and cable pull.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

For those removing the flange such that the driver sits inside a Roval or older DT hub, are we just talking about removing the flange or actually machining the inner side diameter down ? Because I'm pretty handy with the tools and I could grind the flange flat with a flap disc, but not if there is some inner lip that needs to be a specific diameter. 

I was gonna jump on this XTR as soon as I started riding this season but sounds like maybe its worth waiting until its officially available for sale in the US. Sounds like a pain tracking down that spacer if you buy off ebay.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

mevnet said:


> ok, here is the XTR 12 speed with a full SRAM Eagle drivetrain, working just fine. Anyone planning to use it in that combination?


Saw that today, interesting, just not sure why one would want to buy new premium components to mix like that.



alexbn921 said:


> "Working Fine":madman:
> Unless someone measures each step to confirm that they are exactly the same I highly advise against doing this. Most likely you will have several crap shifts across the range from the small differences in leverage ratio and cable pull.


Exactly, it may work fine in the stand clean and new and without load. But will it work "fine" when muddy and when shifting under load after it had some thousand miles on it?


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

I measured the cassettes and there are 0,15mm difference in spacing. Shimano being more narrow. Even if adjusted perfectly in the center of cassette there will be 1mm difference at the ends. And when adjustments are 1mm off there will be noise.


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

Just removing the flange. Honestly, it's pretty easy.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

In all honesty, I think DT added the flange just so the freehub wouldn't be compatible with Roval hubs.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

All valid points, however in the past we've never came close to SRAM and Shimano working together. Actully we had the Zee 10 speed working with SRAM 9 speed, kind of.
When the XT and SLX come out the whole "expensive why mix" approach might change.
The 1mm difference between cassettes is there, however the shifting on the stand with no load is as close to perfect as it gets, did not notice any unusual rubbing, noises from the drivetrain. We'll know a lot more in spring with some miles put on it, but I don't plan to replace the shifter with a SRAM Eagle one on that bike.



HerrKaLeun said:


> Saw that today, interesting, just not sure why one would want to buy new premium components to mix like that.
> 
> Exactly, it may work fine in the stand clean and new and without load. But will it work "fine" when muddy and when shifting under load after it had some thousand miles on it?


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

Aglo said:


> In all honesty, I think DT added the flange just so the freehub wouldn't be compatible with Roval hubs.


Yes, but it doesn't fit the older (2015) DT hubs either.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Just got a notification that my Absolute Black chainring just shipped from Germany, so I will have my complete XTR bike (almost) rideable in a week or two. 
Now the only thing that I don’t have is the spacer...


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

You can ride without it. I didn’t notice any difference.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

mevnet said:


> All valid points, however in the past we've never came close to SRAM and Shimano working together.


My XTR Di2 rear derailleur shifts PERFECTLY with a KMC 11speed chain on a SRAM 11speed XX0 cassette. I have never had a mis-shift or trouble getting any gears. The Di2 stuff interfaces with my Garmin and counts the shifts during a ride. I did a 5 1/2 hour race just over a year ago and it counted over 800 shifts. Not a single problem.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

BlownCivic said:


> My XTR Di2 rear derailleur shifts PERFECTLY with a KMC 11speed chain on a SRAM 11speed XX0 cassette. I have never had a mis-shift or trouble getting any gears. The Di2 stuff interfaces with my Garmin and counts the shifts during a ride. I did a 5 1/2 hour race just over a year ago and it counted over 800 shifts. Not a single problem.


Di2 does rock. My Farley has a 10-42 XXO shifted by XTR and works perfectly for a cable pull system. My Di2 set up is all XT except for the SL KMC.


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

hey everyone! from what i see, if i use my XT M8000 boost crank with AB 32T chainring which already have on my 11.46T setup, the only thing to look will be replace the quicklink with eagle one?. (ordered a new custom wheelset with + spline part as spare so i can replace it when i get the 12speed parts).


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

*12 speed XTR spacer*

Here it is folks, the elusive 12 speed XTR spacer. It's a very flimsy, thin transparent piece of plastic, measuring about 1 1/2" in diameter (I had to photograph it in shadow, so that it can be viewed a bit better). I want to thank Michael from Shimano for helping and sending it to me.


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## paxfobiscum (Dec 16, 2014)

OBieMTB said:


> Here it is folks, the elusive 12 speed XTR spacer. It's a very flimsy, thin transparent piece of plastic, measuring about 1 1/2" in diameter (I had to photograph it in shadow, so that it can be viewed a bit better). I want to thank Michael from Shimano for helping and sending it to me.
> 
> View attachment 1233261


How thick is this?


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Super thin.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

So, I got my Absolute Black chainring, so now my Yeti is complete!










Quick Q for those of you with the cranks, how did you fill the space on the non-drive side spindle? I happened to have a bunch of 24mm Wheels Manufacturing spacers and a perfect rubber gasket, curious what you all did. Here is the space:










Here is how I filled it:










Thoughts?


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

That can't be right... did you follow the instructions?

Here's the instructional video: https://si.shimano.com/#/en/interactive/xtr/m9100/video
(select FRONT CHAINWHEEL)

And instructions: https://si.shimano.com/#/en/iDM/MAFC002/Installation/toc_task_llh_ls2_cdb_hm


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Interesting. However, I think that my method (spacers on the spindle) will work just as well as spacers in between the bb shell and the BB. I will try my method first, and see if there are any problems. I’ll keep everyone updated.

I’ll check my chainline/shifting to see if it needs any tweaking first.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

rideit said:


> Interesting. However, I think that my method (spacers on the spindle) will work just as well as spacers in between the bb shell and the BB. I will try my method first, and see if there are any problems. I'll keep everyone updated.
> 
> I'll check my chainline/shifting to see if it needs any tweaking first.


It looks like you got fat bike cranks.......


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

I have Trek PF90 (or whatever it's called) and i followed instructions. Mine looks like this


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## tahic (Jul 21, 2008)

I have just finished my bikes. Seems to me I've been working quite a bit last year and Santa Claus remembered me. 
No spacers behind cassette but call to Shimano sales office confirmed that those will be delivered to me next week. 
Trek is missing chainring, I have XTR on order but also ordered Absolute Black to get it out faster. 
Cannondale is ready to go.[/QUOTE]

Are Absolute Black doing a non oval ring to fit?


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Not that I know.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

rideit said:


> So, I got my Absolute Black chainring, so now my Yeti is complete!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that 100% is not right, never in a million years is that correct!

EDIT : and I would 100% NOT be riding it like that either!


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

rideit said:


> Interesting. However, I think that my method (spacers on the spindle) will work just as well as spacers in between the bb shell and the BB. I will try my method first, and see if there are any problems. I'll keep everyone updated.
> 
> I'll check my chainline/shifting to see if it needs any tweaking first.


Do you have boost (148) or non-boost (142) bike as they looks like boost crank. Note that left arm is the same in both and only right side differs. Chain line is the same 52mm on both.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

TurboKoo said:


> Do you have boost (148) or non-boost (142) bike as they looks like boost crank. Note that left arm is the same in both and only right side differs. Chain line is the same 52mm on both.


All Boost.


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## ckmosley (Nov 24, 2018)

The referenced Shimano instructions state that you do not need a spacer between the bb shell and the bb for a 92mm wide shell (which I believe the SB100 is). The Shimano instructions and video show a spacer on spindle on the left side between the bottom bracket and the crank arm - just as you have done. I am unclear on the size of spacer and how much space the adjuster on the crank arm can take up. Let us know how your method works.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Here is the spacer from amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Cycling-FC-M9020-B1-Spacer-Ring/dp/B01LEWXXCY


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

ckmosley said:


> The referenced Shimano instructions state that you do not need a spacer between the bb shell and the bb for a 92mm wide shell (which I believe the SB100 is). The Shimano instructions and video show a spacer on spindle on the left side between the bottom bracket and the crank arm - just as you have done. I am unclear on the size of spacer and how much space the adjuster on the crank arm can take up. Let us know how your method works.


Will do. I ordered a 2.5, .7, and .5 BB spacer set from QBP, but really just to adjust chain line a bit if my setup is too far inboard on the drive side. I may not even need them.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Didzy2009 said:


> that 100% is not right, never in a million years is that correct!
> 
> EDIT : and I would 100% NOT be riding it like that either!


What, exactly, are you afraid will happen?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

rideit said:


> What, exactly, are you afraid will happen?


Catch fire and explode, probably.

I mean, really, that is exactly how this sort of crank (self extracting crank bolt with preload ring) is supposed to be installed - with spindle spacers. So the cobbled solution isn't pretty....it works.

Sure, hardly anyone uses 24mm spindle spacers. 30mm spindle spacers are super common and widely available. But now that shimano has rather inexplicably changed their crank attachment method, we have setups that require 24mm spindle spacers. Also not terribly surprising to see some of these small parts not included in the early packaging. I experienced the same thing when I bought Race Face Turbine CINCH cranks right after they came out. They didn't come with enough spindle spacers.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

I really cannot understand this problem. If you have ordered boost crankset then the spacer will come with. Rest can be adjusted with preload. 
I would double check that everything is installed correctly starting from bottom bracket. I have installed crank set to Trek with BB90 and also to BSA without any problems.


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## thefan (Aug 10, 2016)

Boost cranksets only shift the chainring position, I don't believe they actually have a longer spindle. For example, 2 days ago i swapped the RaceFace Evolve crank that came with my 2006 Kona Kula (threaded BB) to a 2018 Remedy (boost) with PF92 and it was a perfect fit. The middle chainring of the crank was slightly closer than ideal to the chainstay, but that was it.

My 2c from looking at the pics you've either forgotten spacers when installing your BB or you haven't done up the crank bolts properly.

If you use some calipers and measure the width of your BB it should be about 97mm.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

thefan said:


> Boost cranksets only shift the chainring position, I don't believe they actually have a longer spindle. For example, 2 days ago i swapped the RaceFace Evolve crank that came with my 2006 Kona Kula (threaded BB) to a 2018 Remedy (boost) with PF92 and it was a perfect fit. The middle chainring of the crank was slightly closer than ideal to the chainstay, but that was it.
> 
> My 2c from looking at the pics you've either forgotten spacers when installing your BB or you haven't done up the crank bolts properly.
> 
> If you use some calipers and measure the width of your BB it should be about 97mm.


In the new XTR chain line is 52mm on both. Axle is wider and left arms are the same. That's why you need to have spacer when using boost. Rest of the play you can adjust by preload.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

rideit said:


> What, exactly, are you afraid will happen?


I am not afraid anything is going to happen, it just looks so wrong.... but the torque/force you are putting down on the spindle climbing when its exposed like that would worry me a little (for flex etc), its a complete bodge job, so you have done something wrong or got the wrong parts.

I just wouldn't be happy with riding it like that, get it looked at properly if you are unsure. ive never ever ever seen a crank spindle that exposed before and can see no reason for it if everything is correctly installed.


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## paxfobiscum (Dec 16, 2014)

jabrabu said:


> I've been searching for the best deal on a 4-piece upgrade kit (1x12, 10-51).
> 
> The best deal I've found is Bike-Discount.de, about $554 US including shipping. However, they are not currently in stock.
> 
> ...


My stuff arrived from Bike24 yesterday. They do price matches


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

How long has it been taking people to get it off ebay ? 

Anyone heard anything new on when it will be available in the US ? 
(do you think they will not release it until the cranks are ready ? Last I heard for that was April).


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Preston67 said:


> How long has it been taking people to get it off ebay ?
> 
> Anyone heard anything new on when it will be available in the US ?
> (do you think they will not release it until the cranks are ready ? Last I heard for that was April).


4-1-19


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

TurboKoo said:


> I really cannot understand this problem. If you have ordered boost crankset then the spacer will come with.


There were no spacers with the crankset. Don't worry, good people, I ordered some proper BB spacers. I am sure that I would have died in a grisly explosion if I had ridden with my original solution!


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## vrships (Jan 16, 2019)

So why the new Chainring has both 52mm chain line for boost and non boost?
And does anyone know when will the new straight pull hubs come out? Even the j-bend hub only has front(or rear) in stock for those German stores. Will there ever be retail straight pull hubs?


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

What dates are folks now hearing with regards to availability of the chainring in your different countries? And what rumours have you heard regarding the delay? I've been told it was the factory fire but also the typhoon that affected regional shipping. Whatever. It's the only part preventing many folks from completing their builds as the rest of the groupset has been available for nearly 4 months. I'm thinking it's a QC delay, but how hard is it to stamp and machine these things? Seems to me to be the easiest component to manufacture. Hurry up Shimano!!!


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## sergio8691 (Aug 6, 2010)

I have bad feeling that it has nothing to do with fire and typhoon but rather with the simple fact that wide narrow chainring is protected by SRAM patent ( https://nsmb.com/articles/2019-shimano-xtr-9100-10-51-12spd-here/ ). Shimano tried to differentiate their approach but it has not worked so far. Hopefully I am wrong - and by the way I think SRAM has moral right to protect their first to the market effort...


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

paxfobiscum said:


> I ordered a bunch of XTR parts and other stuff from Bike24 in Germany last December 22, 2018. I have never ordered from this bike store before. I paid about Euros 25 for DHL shipping and based on experience DHL takes only about 7 Business days to mail the packages.
> 
> It has been 26 days and I still have not received my stuff. I sent two emails to Bike24 in the past two days and they have not responded.
> 
> ...


Although Bike24 should have responded to you, DHL from Germany has been very inconsistent for me. I have bought items that have taken 7 days and some have taken many weeks. Customs holds up packages. Note that DHL has shipping choices and speeds. It's possible yours is the economy class.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

Well I have the XTR drivetrain set up on my Canyon Lux and has anyone encountered excessive wear on the black anodised coating? The cassette has done 110 miles and yesterdays muddy 30 mile ride in the Forest of Dean resulted in this wear not really the anodising you would expect from top XTR stuff!! I know it doesn't affect the performance but it looked much better all black







.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

I agree but I have never had the coatings stay on anything I have used on my bikes. Like the paint on Crank Brother’s pedal, especially the spring. I would prefer manufacturers would not coat/paint parts that will not stick or wear off from everyday abrasions. Makes a high dollar part look like a WalMart special. Disappointing. Nice set up however. I use both eTap and Di2 but much prefer the look and weight of the top SRAM cassettes. Both work amazing well.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Looks like the MT900 rear hubs have been pulled from the sites of all the major retailers that had them listed as "coming soon".


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## Seance765 (Feb 1, 2014)

Anyone tried the system with an Eagle 12 speed chain? or any other aftermarket 12 speed chain KMC?

Thx.


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## tuumbaq (Oct 6, 2005)

TurboKoo said:


> I have Trek PF90 (or whatever it's called) and i followed instructions. Mine looks like this


Where did you get that crankset from ??


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## tuumbaq (Oct 6, 2005)

Has anyone tried running a Sram or Raceface Crankset/chainring with this drivetrain? Im sick of waiting for the xtr crank to come out


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

tuumbaq said:


> Has anyone tried running a Sram or Raceface Crankset/chainring with this drivetrain? Im sick of waiting for the xtr crank to come out


There is a guy in the hightower lt thread with raceface cranks and xtr 1x12


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

tuumbaq said:


> Has anyone tried running a Sram or Raceface Crankset/chainring with this drivetrain? Im sick of waiting for the xtr crank to come out


Yes I used a Raceface chainring on mine.


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## Madbiker94 (May 21, 2018)

My 9000 nw doesn't work with my xtr 9100 chain


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

MBO Rider said:


> Well I have the XTR drivetrain set up on my Canyon Lux and has anyone encountered excessive wear on the black anodised coating? The cassette has done 110 miles and yesterdays muddy 30 mile ride in the Forest of Dean resulted in this wear not really the anodising you would expect from top XTR stuff!! I know it doesn't affect the performance but it looked much better all black
> 
> View attachment 1234435
> .


Just ride it for a while preferably in dusty conditions or just use wet lube and it's going to be black again.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

Madbiker94 said:


> My 9000 nw doesn't work with my xtr 9100 chain


Well...if you look at their description of the new chain you'll see that it uses a new shape for the outer plates so unless you match it with the chainting teeth that were designed the same they can bee too tight? Not a good fit anyway


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Madbiker94 said:


> My 9000 nw doesn't work with my xtr 9100 chain


Can you describe how it doesn't work?


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Most probably like this


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## Seance765 (Feb 1, 2014)

Do RaceFace make chain rings for XT M8000 crank?

Thx.


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## Madbiker94 (May 21, 2018)

Chain just doesn't mesh properly links are slightly longer on the 12 speed,I'm now using a absolute black oval works perfectly


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

Seance765 said:


> Anyone tried the system with an Eagle 12 speed chain? or any other aftermarket 12 speed chain KMC?
> 
> Thx.


I am using 12 speed XTR cassette, derailleur with a Sram XO1 Eagle chain and XT M8000 cranks with a Absolute Black oval 32 which works very well and was recommended by AB due to the XTR crank and chainring supply problems


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Madbiker94 said:


> Chain just doesn't mesh properly links are slightly longer on the 12 speed,I'm now using a absolute black oval works perfectly


The links are.........NOT......... slightly longer on the 12 speed chain. They are the same distance between pins. The 12 speed is narrower than a 11 speed, 10 speed, 9 speed, 8 speed, but front to back the pins are all the same distance apart.


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

tom tom said:


> The links are.........NOT......... slightly longer on the 12 speed chain. They are the same distance between pins. The 12 speed is narrower than a 11 speed, 10 speed, 9 speed, 8 speed, but front to back the pins are all the same distance apart.


i have XT crank with Absolute black 32T oval chainring from my actual 11-46T setup, anything else i need to look on my install?. Sram quicklink?.


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## Madbiker94 (May 21, 2018)

Theres definitely a difference the more the chain raps around the ring the tighter it gets then just derails could be the extended inner links


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## tuumbaq (Oct 6, 2005)

MBO Rider said:


> I am using 12 speed XTR with a Sram XO1 Eagle chain and XT M8000 cranks with a Absolute Black oval 32 which works very well and was recommended by AB due to the XTR crank and chainring supply problems
> 
> View attachment 1234658


You think this would work with an 12 speeds XTR cassette?


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## tuumbaq (Oct 6, 2005)

tom tom said:


> Yes I used a Raceface chainring on mine.


What chainring are you running?I dont think RaceFace makes a 12 speeds chainring??


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

tuumbaq said:


> You think this would work with an 12 speeds XTR cassette?


Yes that is a XTR 10-51 cassette and XTR rear derailleur


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Madbiker94 said:


> Theres definitely a difference the more the chain raps around the ring the tighter it gets then just derails could be the extended inner links


Pin to pin length has remained constant for 25+ years.

The new Shimano chain uses extended inner plates that "improves shifting". This new design does not play well with most narrow wide rings.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

tuumbaq said:


> What chainring are you running?I dont think RaceFace makes a 12 speeds chainring??


The same chainring I used when I had XX1 Eagle on my bike.


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## tuumbaq (Oct 6, 2005)

alexbn921 said:


> Pin to pin length has remained constant for 25+ years.
> 
> The new Shimano chain uses extended inner plates that "improves shifting". This new design does not play well with most narrow wide rings.
> View attachment 1234754


So youre saying running anything other than an XTR chainring could be problematic?


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

tuumbaq said:


> So youre saying running anything other than an XTR chainring could be problematic?


I don't have XTR, but it's not surprising that new rings are having problems while worn rings seem to work better. The full wrap picture demonstrates that while it fits, the chains not fully seated.


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## aja07 (Jul 16, 2018)

tuumbaq said:


> So youre saying running anything other than an XTR chainring could be problematic?


XTR chainrings and chains are finely matched and will not accept any mixing. You can however run a different chainring and sram 12sp chain on the shimano 12 sp cassette


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## Seance765 (Feb 1, 2014)

MBO Rider said:


> I am using 12 speed XTR cassette, derailleur with a Sram XO1 Eagle chain and XT M8000 cranks with a Absolute Black oval 32 which works very well and was recommended by AB due to the XTR crank and chainring supply problems
> 
> View attachment 1234658


I see you have the Canyon Lux, did you have to change the rear derailleur hanger to fit the new Shimano XTR 12 speed derailleur?

My lux came with Shimano XT M8000 groupset, and canyon is advising to buy a specifically designed hanger for 12 speed systems.

Thank you.


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

Yes I had to use the XTR one listed on Canyon's accessories page


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

BTW did Shimano just abandon direct mount? I thought it was the next best thing. :lol:


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

HollyBoni said:


> BTW did Shimano just abandon direct mount? I thought it was the next best thing. :lol:


Wait Shimano makes all the RD hangers for everyone- neat didn't know that.


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## Seance765 (Feb 1, 2014)

mine came with the infamous spacer


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

alexbn921 said:


> Pin to pin length has remained constant for 25+ years.
> 
> The new Shimano chain uses extended inner plates that "improves shifting". This new design does not play well with most narrow wide rings.
> View attachment 1234754


This is the reason to use their chain ONLY with their chainrings. Assume their new chainrings works fine with other chains though


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

mevnet said:


> This is the reason to use their chain ONLY with their chainrings. Assume their new chainrings works fine with other chains though


This is being overstated, it is working fine on my Wolf Tooth chainring. It is certainly a more critical fit than any previous chain but from wrapping it on various chainrings I have laying around I think it will fit more than it won't. Most tooth profiles have a cut or relief in the same spot as the extra inner plate length takes up.

Their quicklink sucks, though. It doesn't have the inner relief that the Eagle quicklink does, so it runs tight on many rings. Just use an Eagle quicklink. Which is ridiculous.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Velodonata said:


> Their quicklink sucks, though. It doesn't have the inner relief that the Eagle quicklink does, so it runs tight on many rings. Just use an Eagle quicklink. Which is ridiculous.


It will be more ridiculous, when one needs to use a Sram quick link on the new XTR 9100 12 speed chain when using the new XTR 9100 chain rings.......


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

After reading lots, i am glad that my fat and mountain are SRAM.
Years ago i enjoyed my Shimano.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

tom tom said:


> It will be more ridiculous, when one needs to use a Sram quick link on the new XTR 9100 12 speed chain when using the new XTR 9100 chain rings.......


Oh that is good


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

33red said:


> After reading lots, i am glad that my fat and mountain are SRAM.
> Years ago i enjoyed my Shimano.


Once Shimano XTR 9100/XT 8100 is fully/readily available you may have a different opinion.......


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

its clear to me that we are trying to "make it work" with something that doesnt match 100% the parts we have installed on the bike, for me it doesnt bother me to get a quicklink from sram to make it work with my actual chainring. Hope i can get asap the xtr crankset and complete the group.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

XTR RD cage bent and twisted by design? Hmmm...


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

tom tom said:


> It will be more ridiculous, when one needs to use a Sram quick link on the new XTR 9100 12 speed chain when using the new XTR 9100 chain rings.......


I can only assume that their rings must be slightly thinner than is typical, it seems really odd that they would provide a quick link with these new chains that doesn't match the internal profile of the rest of the chain. But it is clear as day if you have a Shimano and Eagle quicklink both in front of you. SRAM put the inner relief in their quicklink. Shimano skipped that step.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

33red said:


> After reading lots, i am glad that my fat and mountain are SRAM.
> Years ago i enjoyed my Shimano.


Outside of the quicklink, which is both a stupid problem and incredibly simple to fix, I can't see a single issue with the new XTR stuff that would push me to choose SRAM. From everything I have seen M9100 is a clear improvement on Eagle.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

I don’t have any problems with quicklink and Cannondale spidering chain ring. Works like clock.


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## tuumbaq (Oct 6, 2005)

So Ive got everything but the cranks and chainring and wondering whats the general consensus for best replacement solution?

Raceface crank/chainring 
Sram cranks/chainring
Shimano M980/AbsBlk chainring? 

Personally I prefer the last option as its the cheapest of the bunch and prefer the look of those cranks but I want the most compatible ( obviously) setup.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

TurboKoo said:


> I don't have any problems with quicklink and Cannondale spidering chain ring. Works like clock.


Is the Cannondale chain ring narrow/wide?


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

tuumbaq said:


> So Ive got everything but the cranks and chainring and wondering whats the general consensus for best replacement solution?
> 
> Raceface crank/chainring
> Sram cranks/chainring
> ...


Personally out of those choices I would go with the M980/AbsBlk option, if someone has confirmed it works with the Shimano chain. I would suggest a Wolf Tooth ring with any Shimano cranks as a great choice that I know works from experience. I am currently running the new 12sp Shimano XTR chain on an M9020 crankset with a Wolf Tooth oval ring and other than needing to use the Eagle quicklink to avoid the tight link it works fine. I will always go for Shimano cranks over Raceface or SRAM.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

*Eagle vs. XTR chain details*

It is easy to see the differences between the Eagle and new XTR chains, with the quicklink being the most glaring difference. The other differences are all in the variations of similar details. The Eagle quicklink plate is 0.2mm thinner in the relieved center section, and that is a big difference. There is no way this wasn't going to cause chainring compatibility issues, and for no good reason. Otherwise there are very minor dimensional differences in pin and plate thicknesses, and some more obvious differences in plate shape and profiling with the XTR plates being generally larger but with a narrower relief on the outer plates which seems to be the reason for certain chainrings not working with this chain outside of the quicklink issue.

Eagle left, XTR right. Quick link, outer plate, inner plate, top to bottom.


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## tuumbaq (Oct 6, 2005)

Velodonata said:


> It is easy to see the differences between the Eagle and new XTR chains, with the quicklink being the most glaring difference. The other differences are all in the variations of similar details. The Eagle quicklink plate is 0.2mm thinner in the relieved center section, and that is a big difference. There is no way this wasn't going to cause chainring compatibility issues, and for no good reason. Otherwise there are very minor dimensional differences in pin and plate thicknesses, and some more obvious differences in plate shape and profiling with the XTR plates being generally larger but with a narrower relief on the outer plates which seems to be the reason for certain chainrings not working with this chain outside of the quicklink issue.
> 
> Eagle left, XTR right. Quick link, outer plate, inner plate, top to bottom.
> View attachment 1235204


Man, thanks so much for the detailed answer! I like the look at price of the wolftooth but id be going with an XT crankset I think, should work the same theoreticaly right?

You think this guy would fit on an XT crank ?

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com...cd-chainrings-for-shimano-xtr-m9000-and-m9020


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

tuumbaq said:


> Man, thanks so much for the detailed answer! I like the look at price of the wolftooth but id be going with an XT crankset I think, should work the same theoreticaly right?
> 
> You think this guy would fit on an XT crank ?
> 
> https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com...cd-chainrings-for-shimano-xtr-m9000-and-m9020


This one is specifically for the current XT and SLX cranks. They have rings for just about everything.


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

tuumbaq said:


> Man, thanks so much for the detailed answer! I like the look at price of the wolftooth but id be going with an XT crankset I think, should work the same theoreticaly right?
> 
> You think this guy would fit on an XT crank ?
> 
> https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com...cd-chainrings-for-shimano-xtr-m9000-and-m9020


i tried WT chainring and AB, at lest for me, AB is the way to go in "oval" chainring, their design feels less stress on my knee plus more climbing efficiency.

https://absoluteblack.cc/oval-xt-m8000-96bcd-chainring.html


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Previous setup.... Xtr 12 speed mech and sram x01 Eagle shifter

New setup xtr 12 speed mech and xtr 12 speed shiftsr

Night and day difference in shifting.... Altho Eagle shifter did work well... When it's all matched its bloody smooth shifting is so so smooth even with clutch tightened up a lot...im much more impressed with this setup


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

33red said:


> After reading lots, i am glad that my fat and mountain are SRAM.
> Years ago i enjoyed my Shimano.


After reading lots, glad I never bought Eagle.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

TwoTone said:


> After reading lots, glad I never bought Eagle.


Me neither, i have an 11s and 2 are 20.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

I ride both SRAM Red eTap and Shimano Di2. SRAM 10-42 on the Farley. Both Companies have their pros and cons. Pick what you like and use the hell out of them. SRAM makes lighter and better looking cassettes but cost more. They all work great when properly set up. If you buy lower tier group sets, expect more noise, less tolerances and more weight in many cases. Which Company is better depends on what pros and cons are meaningful for you and of course any bias you may have.


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## tuumbaq (Oct 6, 2005)

https://www.bike-magazin.de/mtb_new...700248&usg=ALkJrhidEp4oAGVgoCQYRKyOzOlV6KRBGw

Interesting read, it looks like Canyon is now specing a few of their bikes with Xtr drivetrain and RaceFace cranskets


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## wannabe_shredder (Dec 23, 2018)

TwoTone said:


> After reading lots, glad I never bought Eagle.


How so? Just upgraded to Eagle after reading a lot of folks loving it - so curious.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

wannabe_shredder said:


> How so? Just upgraded to Eagle after reading a lot of folks loving it - so curious.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's a dead horse. It's a band aid so Sram could beat their chest and say first.

Wide narrow cogs that have to slip into sync. Before Eagle no one would have accepted that crap as a properly functioning drive train.

There plenty of posts on here of people having to band aid the RD by puttng little spacers in so the chain doesn't come of the lower pulley, wedge in the cage and rip the RD off.

So yea, glad I waited for a engineered system.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Let’s not make this into Shimano vs SRAM but focus on the new XTR. 

I have now done 300km’s. Of course as we have winter it’s been all the time cold with temperatures hovering -10 to -5 Celsius. Gears been perfect and I haven’t had any problems. Only thing I noticed is that snow builds on top of the rear brake but that could also be design of Cannondale. After bit of braking all snow gone and no noice.


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## biggrumble (May 6, 2010)

Sorry if this question has been answered already, but what is the chain/cassette/chainring compatibility with the 12-speed XTR and other componentry? From what I could find, the XTR chain must be used with the XTR chainring, but will the XTR cassette work with either the KMC or SRAM 12-speed chains?


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

biggrumble said:


> Sorry if this question has been answered already, but what is the chain/cassette/chainring compatibility with the 12-speed XTR and other componentry? From what I could find, the XTR chain must be used with the XTR chainring, but will the XTR cassette work with either the KMC or SRAM 12-speed chains?


Not true, you can use most available chainrings but you will need to use a Sram Eagle quick link.


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## Sepp (Oct 13, 2007)

So I am having all the parts together except for the chain & cassette. Chainring is an AbsoluteBlack with M9100 crank, but the cassette will be Eagle. Per AbsoluteBlack I must use the M9100 chain, but my question is: 

has anyone used M9100 chain with Eagle cassette, and does it work? 

If yes, do I need a Sram quicklink as well?


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## paxfobiscum (Dec 16, 2014)

Sepp said:


> So I am having all the parts together except for the chain & cassette. Chainring is an AbsoluteBlack with M9100 crank, but the cassette will be Eagle. Per AbsoluteBlack I must use the M9100 chain, but my question is:
> 
> has anyone used M9100 chain with Eagle cassette, and does it work?
> 
> If yes, do I need a Sram quicklink as well?


A big mishmash here:

- XTR derailleur
- AB chainring
- XTR shifter
- SRAM eagle cassette
- XTR chain
- Sram eagle chainlink
- XTR crank

Why not just use one gruppo?
But please let us know how the Setup performs. I am genuinely curios


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## Sepp (Oct 13, 2007)

paxfobiscum said:


> A big mishmash here:
> 
> - XTR derailleur
> - AB chainring
> ...


I am using one gruppo, except for the cassette (existing wheelset - and I love the Sram cassettes).

Are you saying above mishmash is yours, or did you just sum up mine?  
I assume it works fine?


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

In my experience its almost always better to run the same brand of chain as your cassette.....I'm going to be running a similar setup except I'll be using a KAEngineering ring and an Eagle Chain with my Xo1 Cassette and 9100 derailleur/shifter


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## Sepp (Oct 13, 2007)

Twiggy said:


> In my experience its almost always better to run the same brand of chain as your cassette.....I'm going to be running a similar setup except I'll be using a KAEngineering ring and an Eagle Chain with my Xo1 Cassette and 9100 derailleur/shifter


I thought so too, but I haven't found the right chainring to go with a Sram chain yet. I like oval rings, but that's not a must. What is a must is the 9100 crankset. So in the worst case I may have to run in a Sram chain on a non compatible chainring until it works


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Jayem said:


> This is the last cassette problem I've had (almost exactly 2 yrs ago):
> 
> View attachment 1200916
> 
> ...


I did that to my Shimano XT Cassette on my fat bike.


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

My cranks are slightly different colors! The LH arm is all gray. Does anybody else have this with their cranks? Some pre release photos showed both cranks in all gray. With the production issues Shimano has had following their fire last year I'm wondering if I've ended up with an odd lot that slipped through QC.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

S-Works Boy said:


> View attachment 1235855
> 
> My cranks are slightly different colors! The LH arm is all gray. Does anybody else have this with their cranks? Some pre release photos showed both cranks in all gray. With the production issues Shimano has had following their fire last year I'm wondering if I've ended up with an odd lot that slipped through QC.


That looks bad, I would send them back and ask for new one's..........


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Well, now you won't get them confused with each other...


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

just posted today.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/shimanos-new-xtr-drivetrain-still-isnt-available.html

_The M9100 cranks are also being revised, with the slightly heavier FC-MT900 direct mount crank being released in the meantime.

_The production process for the crank still needs refinement. It's a good design, but mastering the mass production of it has proven difficult so we need more time to work on it. As a remedy, we've added a new crank to the line-up that falls in-between the performance and quality of the previous generation XTR and the new M9100 XTR group. It uses our tried and true hollow forged crank arms but it will use the direct mount chain ring that goes with the new group.

***i just spoke with Shimano CSR - he says crank arms are good, just some issues with chain ring and anodization process. article makes it seem like the "manufacturing issues" are structural, but the first batch of 9120 cranks are safe to ride assuming you obtain a viable chainring.


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

So what’s the new release date for the M9120-1 cranks? I built my new SB5 around XTR’s gray color, and am not looking to put these all black “middle of the road” cranks on. 

My current RF Aeffect with steel narrow wide chainring are doing a good job with the new XTR gruppo, but dunno if I’ll be buying new chains every 3-4 months because of it.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

OBieMTB said:


> So what's the new release date for the M9120-1 cranks? I built my new SB5 around XTR's gray color, and am not looking to put these all black "middle of the road" cranks on.
> 
> My current RF Aeffect with steel narrow wide chainring are doing a good job with the new XTR gruppo, but dunno if I'll be buying new chains every 3-4 months because of it.


you can get them now, just not with a chainring. absolute black apparently is shipping a compatible chainring.


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

FactoryMatt said:


> you can get them now, just not with a chainring. absolute black apparently is shipping a compatible chainring.


Yes in 175, but not 170.


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

FactoryMatt said:


> you can get them now, just not with a chainring. absolute black apparently is shipping a compatible chainring.


Where?


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

regiobike said:


> Where?


From Absolute Black....

https://absoluteblack.cc/oval-direct-mount-xtr-m9100-chainring-for-shimano/


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

robmac48 said:


> From Absolute Black....
> 
> https://absoluteblack.cc/oval-direct-mount-xtr-m9100-chainring-for-shimano/


Thanks! i was pointing the cranks, cant find them anywhere.


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## tahic (Jul 21, 2008)

regiobike said:


> Thanks! i was pointing the cranks, cant find them anywhere.


Most of the German sites had the 175mm version but looks like they are out now...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

regiobike said:


> Thanks! i was pointing the cranks, cant find them anywhere.


Ah ok. There are a few sets of cranks on ebay and from www.pushys.com.au


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## Skarhead (Mar 15, 2018)

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/XTR-XC-FC-M9100-1-Hollowtech-II-Cranks-p62132/

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/XTR-Enduro-FC-M9120-1-Hollowtech-II-Cranks-p62128/

Here they have some 175mm in stock


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

Jayem said:


> Well, now you won't get them confused with each other...



They could end up being workshop ornaments if the chainrings don't materialise.

Thanks FactoryMatt for the Pinkbike article. I found a pic of the 'interim' cranks:







I wonder if the CRM95 chainring, or the 'interim' chainring, will also become available in March for suckers like me that bought the cranks already.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Man, I can't believe the Scylence hubs were canceled. That was the most exciting part of the new XTR for me.


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## sergio8691 (Aug 6, 2010)

OK, it's kinda clear now. That was nice distraction but distraction none the less... Eagle X01 it is. May be in 2021...


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

Skarhead said:


> https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/XTR-XC-FC-M9100-1-Hollowtech-II-Cranks-p62132/
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/XTR-Enduro-FC-M9120-1-Hollowtech-II-Cranks-p62128/
> 
> Here they have some 175mm in stock


Sorry for my ignorant question, whats the difference on the m9100 and
M9120


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

scatterbrained said:


> Man, I can't believe the Scylence hubs were canceled. That was the most exciting part of the new XTR for me.


What a complete fustercluck. I'm generally a Shimano fan but this is ridiculous. Fortunately the only part of the new group I was really wanting to get my hands on is the new cassette, and it looks like there will be a way to run MicroSpline with my Onyx hubs later this year. I just can't believe they would go all in on introducing the line months ago and then poop all over themselves like this now. Heads must be rolling.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

regiobike said:


> Sorry for my ignorant question, whats the difference on the m9100 and
> M9120


M9100 has a Q factor of 162mm
M9120 has a Q factor of 168mm


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Velodonata said:


> Heads must be rolling.


I had my eye on the 11spd cassette, which is also axed. Shorter cage derailleur is nonnegotiable for me, so I guess it's the 12spd 10-45 instead. I was looking forward to an improved chainline from the 11spd one, though.

I am gonna bet you are right about heads rolling by promising all these parts and having to walk back on them.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

scatterbrained said:


> Man, I can't believe the Scylence hubs were canceled. That was the most exciting part of the new XTR for me.


Did I miss this? Hubs cancelled...please explain?


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## Apache1 (Jul 2, 2009)

sergio8691 said:


> I have bad feeling that it has nothing to do with fire and typhoon but rather with the simple fact that wide narrow chainring is protected by SRAM patent ( https://nsmb.com/articles/2019-shimano-xtr-9100-10-51-12spd-here/ ). Shimano tried to differentiate their approach but it has not worked so far. Hopefully I am wrong - and by the way I think SRAM has moral right to protect their first to the market effort...


Every body and their brother have narrow-wide rings.


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## Apache1 (Jul 2, 2009)

no 165mm though!


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

See link to Pink Bike article. Hubs, 11-46 11 speed and original crank all gone, at least for now.


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## gasmanxj (Sep 29, 2014)

robmac48 said:


> Did I miss this? Hubs cancelled...please explain?


See article here: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/shimanos-new-xtr-drivetrain-still-isnt-available.html


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Heads have been sleeping for 2 years.
I guess some who trusted that brand 
are having a wake up call and will not B sleeping for long.
Shimano was very good.
RIP


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

33red said:


> Heads have been sleeping for 2 years.
> I guess some who trusted that brand
> are having a wake up call and will not B sleeping for long.
> Shimano was very good.
> RIP


Meh, it's not that dire, apparently they needed a shaking up. It's certainly not what is expected of Shimano, but overall the group still looks great and it should lead to some really good options throughout their line in another year or two. They are really missing their chance to put a dent into SRAM, though. I remain underwhelmed by SRAM drivetrains other than their vision to get a viable OEM wide range 1x drivetrain to market first. I still like my current Shimano based hodgepodge drivetrain better than the Eagle setups I have tried. Although if the new Hyperglide+ cassettes don't perform as expected I will be significantly disappointed.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Velodonata said:


> It is easy to see the differences between the Eagle and new XTR chains, with the quicklink being the most glaring difference. The other differences are all in the variations of similar details. The Eagle quicklink plate is 0.2mm thinner in the relieved center section, and that is a big difference. There is no way this wasn't going to cause chainring compatibility issues, and for no good reason. Otherwise there are very minor dimensional differences in pin and plate thicknesses, and some more obvious differences in plate shape and profiling with the XTR plates being generally larger but with a narrower relief on the outer plates which seems to be the reason for certain chainrings not working with this chain outside of the quicklink issue.
> 
> Eagle left, XTR right. Quick link, outer plate, inner plate, top to bottom.
> View attachment 1235204


In the spirit of Shimano walking back their XTR lineup a bit, I'm going to back off on my feeling that the new chain is more widely compatible than some sources are saying. It definitely is a tight fit on most chainrings, that was undeniable, but it seems to be significantly tighter in use than just static test fitting might indicate. I am currently running a CN-M9100 XTR chain on a Wolftooth chainring, and it gave no trouble when fitting or riding. But looking closer at it tonight, I noticed some shiny spots that turned out to be where the extended inner plates have worn into the chainring teeth. With the added force of actual riding, the reliefs designed into the chainring teeth are not quite enough to prevent this, and I'm not sure how much chain deflection in the end cogs affects this. I'm also not sure if it has caused any actual harm, and I'm going to keep using it since it seems relatively minor, but it is enough that I retract my recommendation of Wolf Tooth as compatible. This chain is different enough that it is going to be wise to only use chainrings designed to accommodate the extra plate material. It may be possible for manufacturers to revise existing rings to be compatible with both XTR and Eagle 12sp chains, or it may be necessary to have unique profiles for each. Absolute Black seems to think that is the case, I don't know what Wolf Tooth has planned but I checked and they have updated their product information to mention that they are not compatible with 12sp Shimano. The fit is very close and it seems as though it would not take much of a change to the Wolf Tooth profile to make it clear, but maybe this would harm retention for all the other chains or have other detrimental effects.

This is a new Wolf Tooth chainring, the shape of the relief cuts are asymmetrical and favor the intended direction of rotation.








This is the CN-M9100 XTR chain, you can see how the inner plate fits in very close to the shape of the relief cut.








This is my setup after some use. You can see the wear marks from the extended inner plates seating into the aluminum. I'm glad I wasn't running the stainless steel ring, that may not have gone so well. I have not felt any problems while riding, but clearly there was a bit of a bedding in process going on. Interestingly, there are smaller marks inside of the bigger marks that appear to match up to the Eagle chain I was running previously. This is just something that I never paid attention to before but now I see it on other old rings I have laying around, what were tiny marks left by traditional chain designs are very exaggerated with the new chain design. The bottom line seems to be, perhaps obviously, that yes there is something to be said for using the correct chainring. And I think there are likely to be benefits to the new chain especially with well matched chainrings and hopefully even more so with the new Hyperglide+ cassettes.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Well this is disappointing. I've been mostly with SRAM for the last few years because I felt that they simply have outpaced shimano and introduced much more innovation and improvement to drivetrains since 1x11. Shimano struggled to get narrow-wide and comparable drivetrains out there, mostly being heavier with some sacrifices, but I thought that all this time the new XTR would be the "equalizer" that at least gets them back into th game with something comparable to the high end 1x11 and 1x12 SRAM setups, if not equal, maybe marginally better. 

I'm sure this will still happen, but it sucks to see it delayed.


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

robmac48 said:


> M9100 has a Q factor of 162mm
> M9120 has a Q factor of 168mm


Thanks whats is the correct factor for 1x12 then


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

regiobike said:


> Thanks whats is the correct factor for 1x12 then


Depends on your frame. Normally it's boost or non-boost but some bikes can get away with narrow q-factor even though being boost frames.


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

TurboKoo said:


> Depends on your frame. Normally it's boost or non-boost but some bikes can get away with narrow q-factor even though being boost frames.


Hightower lt 2018 boost


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

I would go for the Boost version as I don’t know how much clearance you have.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

robmac48 said:


> Did I miss this? Hubs cancelled...please explain?


It's more of a feature cancellation, which inconveniently kills the cool new name. There are new hubs with a new drive system, but they lose the silent coasting feature. Which was a very appealing aspect, but at least it saves me from being tempted to try them. Silent hubs are a mandatory feature for me after riding them for a few years now.

I had a recent conversation with someone in the hub business and the subject of the Sylence hubs came up, he mentioned that Shimano was very reluctant to expose the inner workings and that they were saying that the freehubs would not be serviceable. Any problems would require swapping out the sealed freehub and drive assembly. From what has been shown of the design, it seems that the ability to float the drive rings when coasting requires a precisely calibrated mechanism, it may be that this either wasn't holding up in use to contamination or was too difficult to reliably produce in volume. Eliminating this aspect and allowing the drive plates to contact like DT Swiss and Chris King would make sense in this case. This is just speculation, all we know is that they really dropped the ball after getting everybody all excited about these hubs.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

33red said:


> heads have been sleeping for 2 years.
> I guess some who trusted that brand
> are having a wake up call and will not b sleeping for long.
> Shimano was very good.
> Rip


lol


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

TwoTone said:


> lol


You got an extra few months of engineering. :lol:


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

Velodonata said:


> This is my setup after some use. You can see the wear marks from the extended inner plates seating into the aluminum. I'm glad I wasn't running the stainless steel ring, that may not have gone so well. I have not felt any problems while riding, but clearly there was a bit of a bedding in process going on. Interestingly, there are smaller marks inside of the bigger marks that appear to match up to the Eagle chain I was running previously. This is just something that I never paid attention to before but now I see it on other old rings I have laying around, what were tiny marks left by traditional chain designs are very exaggerated with the new chain design. The bottom line seems to be, perhaps obviously, that yes there is something to be said for using the correct chainring. And I think there are likely to be benefits to the new chain especially with well matched chainrings and hopefully even more so with the new Hyperglide+ cassettes.
> View attachment 1236045


Hi, I have a question.
Isn't the new Shimano chain one directional?
I saw in a video that you need to put that chain in a specific direction or else in dosen't work well.

Can you confirm that?

Thanks


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

OneTrustMan said:


> Hi, I have a question.
> Isn't the new Shimano chain one directional?
> I saw in a video that you need to put that chain in a specific direction or else in dosen't work well.
> 
> ...


It has an inside and an outside, but not a direction. The logo stamped side faces out, this is not new to this chain, I believe they started it with 10 speed. Confusingly, they refer to it as directional but they mean inside and outside.


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

TurboKoo said:


> I would go for the Boost version as I don't know how much clearance you have.


Boost is m9120?


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Just received my AB chain ring to complete my garage. My other ride is Cannondale Scalpel LTD with new XTR.


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

TurboKoo said:


> Just received my AB chain ring to complete my garage. My other ride is Cannondale Scalpel LTD with new XTR.


Looks amazing what bb did you use? I have xt m8000 on mine with less than 50 miles


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

It’s press fit, PF92.


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

Thanks!! Does anybody knows if i can use my actual BB or need to be the xtr part.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

You can use the current bb as XTR has same 24mm axle as your current XT M8000


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

TurboKoo said:


> You can use the current bb as XTR has same 24mm axle as your current XT M8000


Thanks!! I was thinking to orther AB chainring and the crank arms which are avaliable with no bb


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I outfit two bikes with the last gen 9020 cranks. I did a lot of research at the time and really felt these were the best choice in aluminum (I have had too many failures with carbon cranks). Prety much the lightest, compatbile with all BB with good bearing clearance, Shimano engineering etc. I confess I was a die hard 2* guy as I need a wide range but finally gave in and gave up on my tallest gears and now run Eagle. 

I will need to run a 28t with the new XTR and now my chainring choices are very limited by that spider mount. I talked to Wolftooth yesterday and they will be unveiling xtr 12spd chainrings soon, but of course no 28t for the asymmetrical 64bcd of the old cranks (won't fit on the 96 bcd). 

I dont' have any helpful comment except it kind of pisses me off that these cranks will be obsolete for 12spd or at least subject to the whims of aftermarket mfg. I sure miss the days when everyone had the same interface and a chainring was a chainring. I know, direct mount is better, but also not a fan of the new direct mount where you require a special tool, the SRAM interface is far superior IMO, 3 simple bolts. But I like running shimano gear and the SRAM alloy cranks are heavier. 

This post has no point other than to vent. Hopefully I can just run a current 11spd wolftooth 28t chainring on these "old" cranks without too much problem as others have been doing.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Preston67 said:


> I outfit two bikes with the last gen 9020 cranks. I did a lot of research at the time and really felt these were the best choice in aluminum (I have had too many failures with carbon cranks). Prety much the lightest, compatbile with all BB with good bearing clearance, Shimano engineering etc. I confess I was a die hard 2* guy as I need a wide range but finally gave in and gave up on my tallest gears and now run Eagle.
> 
> I will need to run a 28t with the new XTR and now my chainring choices are very limited by that spider mount. I talked to Wolftooth yesterday and they will be unveiling xtr 12spd chainrings soon, but of course no 28t for the asymmetrical 64bcd of the old cranks (won't fit on the 96 bcd).
> 
> ...


I just got the same news from Wolf Tooth, their plans for 12sp XTR are very limited. Basically Shimano direct mount, Cinch and Camo. At this point that is probably wise for them, but maybe once Shimano is shipping this stuff in quantity they will decide supporting previous generation XTR is a good idea. I have run cranks a generation or two older than current plenty of times in the past because Shimano cranks are very durable and it's usually the least important part of the drivetrain for compatibility with new stuff.

I wasn't too devastated since as I indicated in the previous post, while running their standard rings is maybe not ideal it is working in my case so I will just stick with that setup. I might consider getting the new "black cranks" if they make them in 165mm which I have not seen yet, they are kind of cool by being such an oddball and should be very good cranks. But 165mm is all I want to run these days and I have a nice set of current XTR cranks that size already.

Maybe if enough of us ask for them they will consider adding more 12sp XTR support to their line, although that still probably doesn't help you with the 28t, being a less common fitment. They have provided great solutions for less common cranks in the past, I ran their 88mm BCD cranks for the M985 XTR cranks for a while, and that was a very unique application. And of course there will be other options as this stuff starts getting out there. I've gotten in the habit of running Wolf Tooth on everything because I have had nothing but good experiences with their products and as a company.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

Velodonata said:


> Maybe if enough of us ask for them they will consider adding more 12sp XTR support to their line, although that still probably doesn't help you with the 28t, being a less common fitment. They have provided great solutions for less common cranks in the past, I ran their 88mm BCD cranks for the M985 XTR cranks for a while, and that was a very unique application. And of course there will be other options as this stuff starts getting out there. I've gotten in the habit of running Wolf Tooth on everything because I have had nothing but good experiences with their products and as a company.


FWIW it sounds like WT is going to offer more that Absolute Black.

AB currently has a Shimano M9100 spline compatible ring with teeth shaped for the 12s chain, but they don't offer these teeth on any other ring. I have RF Next cranks which I really like, by AB says they have no plans to make rings with the Shimano-profile teeth for any other cranks. They suggested running a SRAM 12s chain, but I think that'd degrade shifting so not gonna do it.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

DrewBird said:


> FWIW it sounds like WT is going to offer more that Absolute Black.
> 
> AB currently has a Shimano M9100 spline compatible ring with teeth shaped for the 12s chain, but they don't offer these teeth on any other ring. I have RF Next cranks which I really like, by AB says they have no plans to make rings with the Shimano-profile teeth for any other cranks. They suggested running a SRAM 12s chain, but I think that'd degrade shifting so not gonna do it.


WT said end of February for the new rings.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

Velodonata said:


> WT said end of February for the new rings.


Good to know. Race Face said they're "working on" NW rings too, no ETA that I've heard though.


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## dcriffraff (Apr 13, 2009)

I think the comments by Nick Murdick, Shimano's MTB product manager in the Pinkbike article about mixing chainrings with the M9100 drivetrain is inaccurate. I have been running using xx1 eagle chainring , xx1 eagle crankset, and M9100 (shifter,cassette,derailleur,chain) for a few months. It works great. Oh, by the way several OEM's are shipping with M9100 drivetrains and non-Shimano cranksets. The 2019 Scott Spark RC is using a RaceFace Next SL crankset and M9100. Photos of M9100 XTR drive train weights (along with bike build) are here: https://dcriffraff.wordpress.com


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## vrships (Jan 16, 2019)

What chain do you use on the XX1 chainring? I guess eagle 12 spd right? M9100 chain doesn't seem to fit on any other chainring.


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## dcriffraff (Apr 13, 2009)

Sorry I wasn't clear. XX1 Eagle 12 speed and chainring, M9100 chain, M9100 derailleur, M9100 Cassette, and M9100 Shifters. Works great together. I do not see a fitment problem. Why do you think that the M9100 chain will not work? Just took a look at the 2019 Scott Spark specs. They are also using the Shimano M9100 chain with Raceface Next Sl crank set.


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## Seance765 (Feb 1, 2014)

The XTR 12 speed chain seems to works just fine with the narrow-wide chainrings, what does not work is the quicklink. Just use an Eagle PowerLock instead. Am I correct?


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## dcriffraff (Apr 13, 2009)

The m9100 xtr quick link and chain works fine for me on an XX1 eagle chainring.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

dcriffraff said:


> I think the comments by Nick Murdick, Shimano's MTB product manager in the Pinkbike article about mixing chainrings with the M9100 drivetrain is inaccurate. I have been running using xx1 eagle chainring , xx1 eagle crankset, and M9100 (shifter,cassette,derailleur,chain) for a few months. It works great. Oh, by the way several OEM's are shipping with M9100 drivetrains and non-Shimano cranksets. The 2019 Scott Spark RC is using a RaceFace Next SL crankset and M9100. Photos of M9100 XTR drive train weights (along with bike build) are here: https://dcriffraff.wordpress.com


Some of this is probably Shimano-promoting comments from a Shimano employee. Pretty common for such folks to espouse "use only our stuff or else" messages.

That said look at post #706 above. There is a small bit of extra wear apparent on a WT chainring due to the shape of the inner links of the Shimano chain. It'll still work, it just might wear the chain, chainring or both a bit faster. Might also make noise and/or drag a bit more at extreme chainline angles.


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## louit32 (Jul 20, 2014)

dcriffraff said:


> The m9100 xtr quick link and chain works fine for me on an XX1 eagle chainring.


On my bike, I have a quarq XX1 crank powermeter with xtr m9100 chain, I saw some problem with the quick link, i try with a sram powerlock and now it's fine.


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## dcriffraff (Apr 13, 2009)

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Just measured the link and the wide tooth on an XX1 Eagle chainring. Link was .1415(3.59mm), wide tooth was .144(3.65mm). The tooth is .0025 wider. Even though it works well, the wear will be great. Time to get a powerlock. Thanks for the info!


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Is it true that the Shmano master link requires a special tool ? That could be a good argument for using the Eagle link anyway.

Seems odd that the Eagle link works with the Shimano chain, seems like potential for an unplanned chain event but if you guys say it is working then I'm glad you ahve figure it out.


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

Following on from the pinkbike article, we know that further production of the 9100 cranks is postponed, and the MT900 crankset will become available instead, but has anyone ascertained if Shimano will still release CRM95 chainrings in the near future? What is Shimano telling you in your respective countries? If not, then hopefully the MT900 chainring will be available separately...and soon!


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

S-Works Boy said:


> Following on from the pinkbike article, we know that further production of the 9100 cranks is postponed, and the MT900 crankset will become available instead, but has anyone ascertained if Shimano will still release CRM95 chainrings in the near future? What is Shimano telling you in your respective countries? If not, then hopefully the MT900 chainring will be available separately...and soon!


Both Wolf Tooth and RaceFace are apparently working on a compatible chainring, so that may happen first. Absolute Black already has an oval ring for M9100. No idea how well it works, but they do say:

"This particular chainring will ONLY work with CN-M9100 chain due to different thickness of the teeth."

https://absoluteblack.cc/oval-direct-mount-xtr-m9100-chainring-for-shimano/


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

> If not, then hopefully the MT900 chainring will be available separately...and soon!


But what will the chainring fit on ? Isn't its direct mount pattern unique ? 
What you are really asking (well, what I'm asking for anyway) is the Shimano chainring to be released with some standard mounting pattern and I don't see that happening.


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

Preston67 said:


> But what will the chainring fit on ? Isn't its direct mount pattern unique ?
> What you are really asking (well, what I'm asking for anyway) is the Shimano chainring to be released with some standard mounting pattern and I don't see that happening.


I have already bought 2 pairs of M9120 cranks and would prefer to use the proper Shimano CRM95 chainring if it ever sees the light of day. I just hope Shimano can advise soon when or if they will have chainrings available. I'll settle for the MT900 chainring if it's the only option in the near future, or even Wolf Tooth if Shimano fails to deliver.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

TurboKoo said:


> Just received my AB chain ring to complete my garage. My other ride is Cannondale Scalpel LTD with new XTR.


Even more impressive is your garage has a sink AND a stove!


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

S-Works Boy said:


> Following on from the pinkbike article, we know that further production of the 9100 cranks is postponed, and the MT900 crankset will become available instead, but has anyone ascertained if Shimano will still release CRM95 chainrings in the near future? What is Shimano telling you in your respective countries? If not, then hopefully the MT900 chainring will be available separately...and soon!


Good question; I also want to know the answer to this (if Shimano will also release the CRM95s in March with the rest of the gruppo in the US).


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

OBieMTB said:


> Good question; I also want to know the answer to this (if Shimano will also release the CRM95s in March with the rest of the gruppo in the US).


It is the chainring itself that is thebissuebwith those cranksets. Not the crank arms.


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

FactoryMatt said:


> It is the chainring itself that is thebissuebwith those cranksets. Not the crank arms.


This seems logical given that crank arms are available and no place has received chainrings. However, to confuse us all further, this recent article https://cyclingmagazine.ca/mtb/xtr-m9100-in-canada/ suggests the delay is due to the crank arm bonding process.

And this article https://cyclingtips.com/2019/02/shimano-xtr-delays-drag-on-scylence-hub-cancelled/ suggests it's the finishing process (again referencing the factory fire) which probably means Shimano is currently unable to mass produce XTR cranksets in the two tone finish, given that the MT900 crank arms and chainring appear to be all one colour (simpler finish?). I'll be happy if I can get the MT900 chainrings ASAP and then I can stop wasting time trawling the internet looking for them! All black will look fine.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

What does everyone think of a mix?

I'm running hope hubs and according to them no microspline diver in site.

Thinking of just going RD and Shifter for now. Run my Eagle Cassette and Chain.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

It might work I couldn't tell you. I thought someone above said the spacing is slightly different between the cassettes so it could be problematic. I think I saw at least one other person running this combog though.

But what are you gaining ? A very slight improvement in shift feeling? The big advantage of XTR12 is improved shifting especially under load and (for me anyway) much improved low end gearing. The improved shifting (and gearing) is a function of the xtr chain and xtr cassette.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Preston67 said:


> It might work I couldn't tell you. I thought someone above said the spacing is slightly different between the cassettes so it could be problematic. I think I saw at least one other person running this combog though.
> 
> But what are you gaining ? A very slight improvement in shift feeling? The big advantage of XTR12 is improved shifting especially under load and (for me anyway) much improved low end gearing. The improved shifting (and gearing) is a function of the xtr chain and xtr cassette.


I really dislike the SRAM shifter and feel. Going full XTR forces me to get new wheels and right now I'm just not there $$ wise. I may still try Eagle again, but really did not like it last year. Been on Shimano forever so maybe I'm just inherently biased, but I like Shimano shifters and shifting better.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

WoodstockMTB said:


>


I don't get it. This guy always shifts so fast or just double shifts in his videos even though he is trying to show how a certain combination works. He is in one gear for such a short period of time that you can't hear if it clicks or runs smooth or anything like that... All I see is someone shifting up and down like a madman, not very convincing.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

HollyBoni said:


> I don't get it. This guy always shifts so fast or just double shifts in his videos even though he is trying to show how a certain combination works. He is in one gear for such a short period of time that you can't hear if it clicks or runs smooth or anything like that... All I see is someone shifting up and down like a madman, not very convincing.


Good point.


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## BigART (Aug 30, 2017)

WoodstockMTB said:


> What does everyone think of a mix?
> 
> I'm running hope hubs and according to them no microspline diver in site.
> 
> Thinking of just going RD and Shifter for now. Run my Eagle Cassette and Chain.


I'm in your situation. I have Hope Pro 4's. I also contacted Hope & Shimano. I believe Shimano will eventually let more companies use the micro spline. I'll be using the X01 Eagle Cassette & Chain with the XTR Shifter & Derailleur when I switch. Sure it's not perfect, but it works plenty well from what I've seen so far.


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## BigART (Aug 30, 2017)

WoodstockMTB said:


> I really dislike the SRAM shifter and feel. Going full XTR forces me to get new wheels and right now I'm just not there $$ wise. I may still try Eagle again, but really did not like it last year. Been on Shimano forever so maybe I'm just inherently biased, but I like Shimano shifters and shifting better.


My wife and I tried a few different demo bikes with X01 Eagle and we cannot stand the Eagle shifter. The LBS owner says he loves Eagle, but also said it's more finicky about alignment/adjustment over Shimano.

I'm either going to run a combo or just wait for Hope to get the micro spline freehub. I can climb all but a few hills in my 42t. I would like a 50t for some of the steeper hills I rarely climb or for when I'm tired. The tired part happens to quickly, LOL.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

WoodstockMTB said:


> I really dislike the SRAM shifter and feel. Going full XTR forces me to get new wheels and right now I'm just not there $$ wise. I may still try Eagle again, but really did not like it last year. Been on Shimano forever so maybe I'm just inherently biased, but I like Shimano shifters and shifting better.


I realy enjoyed an XTR 27 speeds on a 2000 bike i recently sold.
For the last 2 years i realy enjoy an 11 S SRAM XO1.
What model of SRAM did you dislike?
Was it the feel? Backpedaling issues or else?
Was it a modification you made? Maybe not optimal chainline?
Thanks.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

BigART said:


> The LBS owner says he loves Eagle, but also said it's more finicky about alignment/adjustment over Shimano.


I'm guessing he said this about 11spd Shimano stuff, let's wait and see how XTR does in this regard. Sadly I don't have personal experience with M9100. But just like Eagle it's 12spd, it has to climb a 51T cog, and it also uses an offset pulley design so I assume B-gap should be equally as important.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

33red said:


> I realy enjoyed an XTR 27 speeds on a 2000 bike i recently sold.
> For the last 2 years i realy enjoy an 11 S SRAM XO1.
> What model of SRAM did you dislike?
> Was it the feel? Backpedaling issues or else?
> ...


Straight up GX Eagle on an Ibis Mojo HD3. It just feels clunky. It need adjust more often to deal with clicking, rubbing and gear slipping throughout the season. Issues I never had with Shimano XT 11s. I barely ever touched that drivetrain. Also finicky to adjust. Shimano usually took a few turns of the barrel adjuster. SRAM never seemed that easy. Often had to adjust the High/Low. Someone here gave me a suggestion of adjusting the B screw under sag which makes sense, but at the same time used to not be needed. Lastly, I don't like the SRAM shifter itself. Harder to get the angle correct and I don't like the downshifts one at a time as much.


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

BigART said:


> The LBS owner says he loves Eagle, but also said it's more finicky about alignment/adjustment over Shimano.


Having had both back to back (XX1 Eagle on my previous Bronson, new XTR on my SB5), I completely agree with this, and it's the main reason why I went to Shimano. However, I do like the adjustability of the shift lever on the XX1 Eagle shifter over the new SHIMANO XTR one.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

HollyBoni said:


> I'm guessing he said this about 11spd Shimano stuff, let's wait and see how XTR does in this regard. Sadly I don't have personal experience with M9100. But just like Eagle it's 12spd, it has to climb a 51T cog, and it also uses an offset pulley design so I assume B-gap should be equally as important.


Good points again. My concern with the franken XTR/Eagle is that the cassette with XTR creates sloppiness. I may give it a try just to see and then pay up for a new rear hub if I can't get it dialed in.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Why not hold out a little while until the driver becomes available on your hubs? Or until you can replace wheels? Or replace with a new hub? All seem like better solutions than trying to run a Shimano on a Sram setup.

Personally, I don't have any of the problems people complain about with Eagle. I know the shifters are polarizing, but I don't have a problem between Sram or Shimano shifters (though, I slightly prefer gripshift especially for XC).

I ordered my Eagle GX parts for my Enduro yesterday, heading to the shop to install them on my bike soon. I think people who complain about the shifting on Eagle are just looking for excuses to not like Sram, which I think is silly. You don't have to justify it, just run what you want, it's your bike.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

HollyBoni said:


> I don't get it. This guy always shifts so fast or just double shifts in his videos even though he is trying to show how a certain combination works. He is in one gear for such a short period of time that you can't hear if it clicks or runs smooth or anything like that... All I see is someone shifting up and down like a madman, not very convincing.


What would you like to see? Chain rub on the cogs as you move up and down the cassette? On specific areas of the cassette? There's none. What else would be of interest? 
BTW one of my buddies has this exact setup and took it to the trails - shifting under load seems to be fine, not sure if at the Shimano XTR complete drivetrain level, but definitely not worse than Eagle. So a valid config for those that prefer the XTR shifter feel. Oh, and you can use the shifter with the Eagle RD as well, no problem.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm shopping between SRAM AXS vs. Shimano XTR 11 speed wide spacing (which I'm not even sure is still even a thing).

Does Shimano shift better under full load than Eagle (what I have currently)? This is the most important attribute for me.

The second most important attribute is weight/ gear ratios and the Shimano wins by a landslide in that contest.

Thanks.


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## OBieMTB (Jan 7, 2019)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'm shopping between SRAM AXS vs. Shimano XTR 11 speed wide spacing (which I'm not even sure is still even a thing).
> 
> Does Shimano shift better under full load than Eagle (what I have currently)? This is the most important attribute for me.
> 
> ...


Yes, the XTR does (vs XX1 Eagle); but I'd hold off until the complete group set is released.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

My turn.

73mm BB / 157mm rear end with Onyx hubs.
Chainline of 56.5mm required - so:

Cranks - Probably X01, small possibility NextR



Full X01

or

XTR Mechs
Substitute Cassette
X01 or XTR chain w SRAM quicklink.

....and wait for Onyx to release a Microspline driver, then move to full XTR


Biggest detriments to doing the mix / match and wait are:

No real idea on if and when an Onyx microspline driver will be available. 
Onyx just says that licencing has not been opened up, so no ETA

For my area the short-cage 9100-GS and 10-45 cassette is optimal, however that produces problems when trying to find a substitute cassette - the 9-46 E13 is about the only option I know of.

So - Full X01 or Mix and Match?


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## IOWA (Jul 16, 2014)

Velodonata said:


> In the spirit of Shimano walking back their XTR lineup a bit, I'm going to back off on my feeling that the new chain is more widely compatible than some sources are saying. It definitely is a tight fit on most chainrings, that was undeniable, but it seems to be significantly tighter in use than just static test fitting might indicate. I am currently running a CN-M9100 XTR chain on a Wolftooth chainring, and it gave no trouble when fitting or riding. But looking closer at it tonight, I noticed some shiny spots that turned out to be where the extended inner plates have worn into the chainring teeth. With the added force of actual riding, the reliefs designed into the chainring teeth are not quite enough to prevent this, and I'm not sure how much chain deflection in the end cogs affects this. I'm also not sure if it has caused any actual harm, and I'm going to keep using it since it seems relatively minor, but it is enough that I retract my recommendation of Wolf Tooth as compatible. This chain is different enough that it is going to be wise to only use chainrings designed to accommodate the extra plate material. It may be possible for manufacturers to revise existing rings to be compatible with both XTR and Eagle 12sp chains, or it may be necessary to have unique profiles for each. Absolute Black seems to think that is the case, I don't know what Wolf Tooth has planned but I checked and they have updated their product information to mention that they are not compatible with 12sp Shimano. The fit is very close and it seems as though it would not take much of a change to the Wolf Tooth profile to make it clear, but maybe this would harm retention for all the other chains or have other detrimental effects.
> 
> This is a new Wolf Tooth chainring, the shape of the relief cuts are asymmetrical and favor the intended direction of rotation.
> View attachment 1236043
> ...


Hey mate, this is stainless steel chainring made from wolftooth? Working good with new chain?


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## regiobike (Apr 23, 2017)

been trying to wait ebay cupon to get the group without cranks, 2 days ago i just installed a sunrace 11-50T and replace my shimano 11.46T, nice setup, it shift soft and fast without any problem, everything for $70 usd installed. I guess i will wait until all the group is ready to ship on the market, i have already the micrspline that i got from Wayne who built my wheelset with DTswiss 350 hugs


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## alexdi (Jun 25, 2016)

Any thoughts on the M9111 rear hub?

I'm comparing it to DT 240. Similar weight. Similar cost, except the DT has an 18T ratchet relative to Shimano's 50-something. Expensive upgrade to match. Cartridge bearings on the DT. Alternative freehubs available. 

Scylence was extremely compelling to me. Without it, I'm unsure if I want to go all-in on Shimano.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

IOWA said:


> Hey mate, this is stainless steel chainring made from wolftooth? Working good with new chain?


The stainless ring is indeed from Wolf Tooth, however I am running the new chain on the aluminum WT ring. I think the stainless ring would be a bad idea with the new chain, it would be a lot harder on the chain to bed in on steel than it is the aluminum, since it is a borderline compatibility combination in the first place. I don't know if WT will be releasing any SS chainrings in the upcoming new version that is designed for the new XTR chain, but I kind of doubt it, at least for a while. Their selection of SS rings is limited compared to their full line.


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

Bike24.com and some other european bike shops now have this new FH-M9111 hubs in stock. Looks the same, but without "SCYLENCE" written on them. Same with the cheaper non-XTR model ( FH-MT901)


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

alexdi said:


> Scylence was extremely compelling to me. Without it, I'm unsure if I want to go all-in on Shimano.


I feel the same about Sylence - for me it was a huge part of the draw to Shimano's impending 12 speed XTR drivetrain.

Oh well, I'm still a Shimano guy, currently running an XT 11spd drivetrain. But in light of the cancellation of the Sylence hub, I just ordered a new 11spd wheel with a (silent) Onyx hub at its heart.

11 speeds instead of 12. 46t large cog instead of 51t. 11t small cog instead of 10t. Onyx hub instead of Sylence. I'm okay with all this.
=sParty


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Sparticus said:


> I feel the same about Sylence - for me it was a huge part of the draw to Shimano's impending 12 speed XTR drivetrain.
> 
> Oh well, I'm still a Shimano guy, currently running an XT 11spd drivetrain. But in light of the cancellation of the Sylence hub, I just ordered a new 11spd wheel with a (silent) Onyx hub at its heart.
> 
> ...


I don't want the 10-51, either. I will be using the 10-45 cassette so I can stay on a med cage derailleur. I bet in a couple years at most, xt is going to be 12spd and on microspline. If shimano wants to catch up to sram, it would behoove them to have 12spd xt and slx in the pipeline now.

I'm not converting any of my other bikes yet (though 1 could be converted to microspline/12spd shimano right now), but I'll need to start considering that eventually. I've got 3 other 1x11 bikes. 2 shimano, 1 sram. And 2 2x10 gravel bikes.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Sparticus said:


> I feel the same about Sylence - for me it was a huge part of the draw to Shimano's impending 12 speed XTR drivetrain.
> 
> Oh well, I'm still a Shimano guy, currently running an XT 11spd drivetrain. But in light of the cancellation of the Sylence hub, I just ordered a new 11spd wheel with a (silent) Onyx hub at its heart.
> 
> ...


i did a high dollar build last year at this time. I obsessed with a quiet hub. Wanted Onyx but it was too heavy. Ordered Project 321 but cancelled due to continuous issues. So I bought a pair of DT Swiss 240s with the 52 option. I realized almost immediately my obsession on quiet was mostly overblown. I seldom hear my hub but when I do, I quickly forget about. If and when Sylence becomes available, I will buy it but not losing sleep about it. Hopefully it becomes available when DI2 is available in 12 speed.


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## Toffiewolf (Apr 9, 2015)

Good to hear. I just ordered my 240s with 54t ratchet upgrade.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Pedalon2018 said:


> i did a high dollar build last year at this time. I obsessed with a quiet hub. Wanted Onyx but it was too heavy. Ordered Project 321 but cancelled due to continuous issues. So I bought a pair of DT Swiss 240s with the 52 option. I realized almost immediately my obsession on quiet was mostly overblown. I seldom hear my hub but when I do, I quickly forget about. If and when Sylence becomes available, I will buy it but not losing sleep about it. Hopefully it becomes available when DI2 is available in 12 speed.


I went from Formula to CK to i9 back to under 54POE, and a friend that went from Hope to Onyx... I think we're just fooling ourselves. Loud hubs are definitely a no-no for us (i9 and Hope sound annoying now). Silent is the new "OMG, this is special" thing. Quiet droning just isn't the same.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

I genereally prefer quiet hubs - of all of my wheels most are as quiet as I can make them. But...

I always have a wheelset that is made out of high-noise hub laced to well tensioned spokes and a massive aluminum rim. Just to scare children, cause heart attacks and raise dead to roam pointlessly for closure of their lives.

It also makes a good replacement for a bell on an urban bike


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

uzurpator said:


> It also makes a good replacement for a bell on an urban bike


it's always fun to scare dog walkers


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

Harold said:


> it's always fun to scare dog walkers


In all seriousness, riding in the Seattle area (many riders on our excellent trails) I think a silent hub would be frustrating. Seems like sneaking up on other riders and then yelling for a pass pisses them off more than if they hear you coming. I very rarely have to ask others to pass riding I9s. While I like the idea of sailing through the trees with nothing but the sound of tires on dirt, I think it's impractical for where I ride.

And, using a bit of the appropriate grease rather than oil in the FHB does a nice job of muting the high-frequency part of the I9 sound. They're far from silent, but they're not annoying (to me.)


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DrewBird said:


> In all seriousness, riding in the Seattle area (many riders on our excellent trails) I think a silent hub would be frustrating. Seems like sneaking up on other riders and then yelling for a pass pisses them off more than if they hear you coming. I very rarely have to ask others to pass riding I9s. While I like the idea of sailing through the trees with nothing but the sound of tires on dirt, I think it's impractical for where I ride.
> 
> And, using a bit of the appropriate grease rather than oil in the FHB does a nice job of muting the high-frequency part of the I9 sound. They're far from silent, but they're not annoying (to me.)


I'm running Hope hubs on my fatbike, and IMO, they're always louder than I9's (I9's factory is just a few miles away, so there are a ton of them on the trails here). I have some Hydra hubs on order for my build (microspline FHB for the XTR 9100) and with them being quieter than the Torch hubs, I think I'm going to have to go light on the freehub lube to maintain the signaling capability. That said, I'd appreciate it if they were a bit quieter than my Hopes, because I just can't chat and ride with my current bike while coasting on a mellow stretch of gravel.

We'll see how that all shakes out. I've only heard the new Hydra wheels on a system wheelset with alu rims, which reverberate a little differently than a j-bend wheel with steel spokes. I think if the wheels wind up being quiet enough that they're no longer reliable for announcing my presence to hikers, that I'll probably get a Timber bell. Encountered my first one of those on the trail recently, and the jingle was rather pleasant to hear the rider coming (another benefit was that I heard him climbing, which which is a situation where loud hubs don't really work).

The trails closest to my house that I ride most frequently can get pretty busy. Once you ride a couple miles from the trailhead, it's fine because there are enough trails for people to spread out on. But the trailheads themselves can be PACKED.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Harold said:


> I'm running Hope hubs on my fatbike, and IMO, they're always louder than I9's (I9's factory is just a few miles away, so there are a ton of them on the trails here). I have some Hydra hubs on order for my build (microspline FHB for the XTR 9100) and with them being quieter than the Torch hubs, I think I'm going to have to go light on the freehub lube to maintain the signaling capability. That said, I'd appreciate it if they were a bit quieter than my Hopes, because I just can't chat and ride with my current bike while coasting on a mellow stretch of gravel.
> 
> We'll see how that all shakes out. I've only heard the new Hydra wheels on a system wheelset with alu rims, which reverberate a little differently than a j-bend wheel with steel spokes. I think if the wheels wind up being quiet enough that they're no longer reliable for announcing my presence to hikers, that I'll probably get a Timber bell. Encountered my first one of those on the trail recently, and the jingle was rather pleasant to hear the rider coming (another benefit was that I heard him climbing, which which is a situation where loud hubs don't really work).
> 
> The trails closest to my house that I ride most frequently can get pretty busy. Once you ride a couple miles from the trailhead, it's fine because there are enough trails for people to spread out on. But the trailheads themselves can be PACKED.


Harold, until your post I wondered why everyone in this this thread employed loud hubs to announce their presence instead of a bell. Personally I much prefer a bell and a silent hub, although my bells (I have a bell on every bike) are the "ding, ding" type, not the constantly ringing jingle bell type.

I've ridden with people who have the Timber bell and I know it can be turned off, but theirs are typically jangling all the time. I'm lucky enough to live and ride in an area where the trails are uncrowded so I ride in silence until I come upon another trail user, then I give my bell the thumb and they typically smile and thank me as I pass. A bell makes a friendly sound.
=sParty


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Sparticus said:


> Harold, until your post I wondered why everyone in this this thread employed loud hubs to announce their presence instead of a bell. Personally I much prefer a bell and a silent hub, although my bells (I have a bell on every bike) are the "ding, ding" type, not the constantly ringing jingle bell type.
> 
> I've ridden with people who have the Timber bell and I know it can be turned off, but theirs are typically jangling all the time. I'm lucky enough to live and ride in an area where the trails are uncrowded so I ride in silence until I come upon another trail user, then I give my bell the thumb and they typically smile and thank me as I pass. A bell makes a friendly sound.
> =sParty


I still ride with a bell (I have one on every bike), even with my Hope hubs (I really like the Spurcycle bell on that bike). But with the loud hubs, MOST people hear me well before I see them and that's pretty nice on narrow, twisty trails with low sight lines in dense forest.


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

Harold said:


> I'm running Hope hubs on my fatbike, and IMO, they're always louder than I9's (I9's factory is just a few miles away, so there are a ton of them on the trails here). I have some Hydra hubs on order for my build (microspline FHB for the XTR 9100)
> 
> How do you like the hope fatsno hubs? I have just about made up my mind to use them on my new build.
> 
> Oh and that spurcycle bell is just the tits. What a great product.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

timsmcm said:


> Harold said:
> 
> 
> > I'm running Hope hubs on my fatbike, and IMO, they're always louder than I9's (I9's factory is just a few miles away, so there are a ton of them on the trails here). I have some Hydra hubs on order for my build (microspline FHB for the XTR 9100)
> ...


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## timsmcm (Dec 23, 2007)

Harold said:


> timsmcm said:
> 
> 
> > The fatsno hubs are nice. No complaints.
> ...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

timsmcm said:


> Harold said:
> 
> 
> > Did you use the steel freehub or the aluminum one? I am trying to find a steel 197 x12 but no Mas so far.
> ...


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

Whilst Shimano are now listing information about the interim MT-900 crankset on various documents does anybody know of delivery dates to stockists yet?

https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/lc/2.4/xtr_m9100/1x12?tocst=0
scroll down and click on FC-MT900-1 for information

https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-MAFC002-02-ENG.pdf
page 17 has installation instructions


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## 1ma2t (Aug 24, 2012)

Slow motion shifting of this new groupset: 




XTR M9100 10-51 Cassette, Shifter, Derailleur and Chain with an Race Face Next SL Cranks w/ Absolute Black 32t Oval Chainring.

Shifts are exact and perfect, and the AB chainring seems to work flawlessly.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Well I guess I won't have to worry about the official Shimano chainring anymore, as they won't be producing a 28t anyway.

Interestingly enough, they do list a 2*12 setup. I hadn't noticed that before. That would be pretty amazing ! It comes with a 28t/38t. I can't tell from the tiny picture but it looks like the big ring bolts on the normal way, and then the little ring must bolt onto the chainring or be a single piece, so that won't provide me with a 28t for a 1* setup anyway. It doesn't look like a separate spider mount. But I still think its interesting, I wonder if they plan to use that with the full 10-51 cassette. Holy chain wrap Batman !


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Double setup is only with 10-45 cassette. 
28t chainring is bolted to 38 which is attached like single rings too. Cranks are the same.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Looking at the install instructions the big chainring IS the spider. So you could machine off the outer ring to save a few grams and use the 28t that way, but probably compromises the chainline and would look awfully janky. Or just call the big chainring your bash guard, and you could always dirty finger derailleur it if you are riding pavement to the trailhead as well. Interesting, but it would be an 86 gram hit if you don't machine the chainring at all.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks Turbokoo, I figured that out as we were posting at the same time.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

1ma2t said:


> Shifts are exact and perfect, and the AB chainring seems to work flawlessly.


Actually, the AB chainring looks a bit sketchy. Look at ~24 and ~50 seconds; each time the quick link comes through, there's a moment of chain suck, like the chainring isn't releasing the chain properly. If that's what it looks like when whistle-clean I'd worry about how it'd work after a couple hours in the mud.

I now have 2 complete drivetrains, lacking only rings to fit my RaceFace cranks, so I'm anxious for someone to make something that'd work. Sounds like Wolftooth has some in the works that should drop in the next couple weeks.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

DrewBird said:


> Actually, the AB chainring looks a bit sketchy. Look at ~24 and ~50 seconds; each time the quick link comes through, there's a moment of chain suck, like the chainring isn't releasing the chain properly. If that's what it looks like when whistle-clean I'd worry about how it'd work after a couple hours in the mud.


I don't have any experience with AB chainrings, but I know the garbage Shimano quicklink is sketchy. It's sad and ridiculous, but using an Eagle quicklink solves these issues because it actually matches the profile of all the other links, unlike the Shimano one.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Velodonata said:


> I don't have any experience with AB chainrings, but I know the garbage Shimano quicklink is sketchy. It's sad and ridiculous, but using an Eagle quicklink solves these issues because it actually matches the profile of all the other links, unlike the Shimano one.


:thumbsup:.....:thumbsup:
Some people still do not understand that yet..........


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

DrewBird said:


> Actually, the AB chainring looks a bit sketchy. Look at ~24 and ~50 seconds; each time the quick link comes through, there's a moment of chain suck, like the chainring isn't releasing the chain properly. If that's what it looks like when whistle-clean I'd worry about how it'd work after a couple hours in the mud.


That is to be expected, and, to a certain degree, desired. N/W rings work best when they fully fill the space between the chain plates. To get that however you are encroaching on the manufacturing tolerances, at certain point, and fresh rings might rub slightly.

it goes away within a few miles of riding.


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

uzurpator said:


> That is to be expected, and, to a certain degree, desired. N/W rings work best when they fully fill the space between the chain plates. To get that however you are encroaching on the manufacturing tolerances, at certain point, and fresh rings might rub slightly.
> 
> it goes away within a few miles of riding.


I get that fresh drivetrain parts may benefit from a little time to get to know each other, but the situation with the Shimano quicklinks is not like that. Having a chain where one link is significantly different than the entire rest of the chain is not cool. For Shimano to finally get with the quicklink program and then so quickly fcuk it up is not cool. It's very clear if you look at them side by side, SRAM makes a much better Shimano compatible quicklink than Shimano.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Velodonata said:


> I don't have any experience with AB chainrings, but I know the garbage Shimano quicklink is sketchy. It's sad and ridiculous, but using an Eagle quicklink solves these issues because it actually matches the profile of all the other links, unlike the Shimano one.


Are you saying that just running an Eagle quicklink on the new XTR chain will result in the Shimano chain being compatible with the Sram front chain rings?
I like what Shimano has to offer, but am not willing to get rid of my high dollar GXP cranks and am looking for a work around that utilizes the XTR chain which appears to be responsible for much of the shifting under load improvement.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

anyone measured cable pull of 12speed shimano trigger?


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> Are you saying that just running an Eagle quicklink on the new XTR chain will result in the Shimano chain being compatible with the Sram front chain rings?
> I like what Shimano has to offer, but am not willing to get rid of my high dollar GXP cranks and am looking for a work around that utilizes the XTR chain which appears to be responsible for much of the shifting under load improvement.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Yes...........


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> Are you saying that just running an Eagle quicklink on the new XTR chain will result in the Shimano chain being compatible with the Sram front chain rings?
> I like what Shimano has to offer, but am not willing to get rid of my high dollar GXP cranks and am looking for a work around that utilizes the XTR chain which appears to be responsible for much of the shifting under load improvement.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I think "compatible" is a sliding scale. If you look back at post #706, you can see that the Shimano chain seems to work OK with WT rings, but does mar the aluminum a bit. It may work fine in the shop but be noisier and more draggy under power, when muddy, or at extreme chainline angles. WT, AB, and RF all state their normal rings are not compatible with Shimano 12, though no word on whether that's just because of the quick link.

Wolf Tooth is launching XTR-compatible rings for Shimano, SRAM and RF in the next couple weeks, so that should solve the problem...


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## 1ma2t (Aug 24, 2012)

DrewBird said:


> Actually, the AB chainring looks a bit sketchy. Look at ~24 and ~50 seconds; each time the quick link comes through, there's a moment of chain suck, like the chainring isn't releasing the chain properly. If that's what it looks like when whistle-clean I'd worry about how it'd work after a couple hours in the mud.


Good eye. Keep in mind, what you are watching is in 240fps. 
It's is hardly noticeable in real time, 



 (1:38)
In fact, I never noticed it until you pointed it out.

Like other's have mentioned, I do agree that it appears Shimano's quick link is sub-standard to eagle's quick link. Maybe it's because Shimano is new at this, and Sram has had theirs for years to improve, but it's doesn't seem that hard to get right; so maybe this was intentional by Shimano??

But with that said, I will be running this setup (RF cranks, AB Chainring, XTR Chain and Quicklink) until I notice an issue. Mostly b/c Shimano has made it very clear that they only want to be compatible with their own products, and I want the best performance possible.

If this quick link turns out to cause more issues then it solves, then I will simply replace it with Sram Eagle. But in northern Utah, if we have mud it means trails are unrideable. So I doubt this bike will see serious amounts of mud.


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## 1ma2t (Aug 24, 2012)

DrewBird said:


> I think "compatible" is a sliding scale. If you look back at post #706, you can see that the Shimano chain seems to work OK with WT rings, but does mar the aluminum a bit. It may work fine in the shop but be noisier and more draggy under power, when muddy, or at extreme chainline angles. WT, AB, and RF all state their normal rings are not compatible with Shimano 12, though no word on whether that's just because of the quick link.
> 
> Wolf Tooth is launching XTR-compatible rings for Shimano, SRAM and RF in the next couple weeks, so that should solve the problem...


My impression is those chainrings will work with XTR chain, with a different quick link.
--Also AB is pretty nimble company so I bet he has a chainring produced pretty quickly as well.

According to shimano the biggest change to the chain is "the new CN-M9100 HG chain features an extended inner link plate that ... The new design reduces natural vibrations normally caused by the inner and outer chain plates rolling onto the chainring and provides better chain engagement, stronger retention, and smoother pedaling."

So if there was an issue it would be very obvious, and the chainring would stick, like we see the quicklink sticking. 
--I did a small test with a cheap chainring I got off ebay for my fatbike running 1x10 and it stuck like crazy in chain. Where the AB chainring rolls on the chain as well as it did on the Sram xx1 chain.

YMMV, but it appears AB, is 99% compatible only 1 link of the 116 links on the chain isn't compatible. So replace that one link and you have a 100% compatible chain. Or do what I did and just use the link anyways and see if it causes a problem. but my definition of "compatible" maybe different than yours.


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## 1ma2t (Aug 24, 2012)

*Xtr > sram*

All the issues aside, I will say I am very impressed with the performance of XTR.

I did a slow mo side-by-side comparison of Shimano XTR 12 Speed vs Sram Eagle here: 




TL;DR - XTR shifts smoother, quieter, faster, lighter than SRAM, both up and down the cassette. The biggest improvement is how it shifts up (into hard gears), it feels as if it slides down, opposed to Sram just dropping the chain on the smaller gear.
___________________

I have ridden Sram Eagle XX1 for the last 3 years, and put several thousand miles on it. Although this comparison is XTR against GX, I wanted to compare similar condition drivetrains, which are both in new (XTR) or like new condition (GX, sub 100 miles). Personally, I can't tell the difference in shifting performance b/t GX and XX1 (using XX1 shifter, which I used).

On the stand, when shifting up the cassette the GX Eagle is more indexed and shifts feel more pronounce, where XTR is much smoother and easier to shifts multiple gears.

Shifting down the cassette the opposite is the case, XTR has a very nice index and the chain slides smoothly down, GX has more of a drop and doesn't slide down the cassette as smoothly.

Also, shifting out of a heavier gear (say you just finished a fast decent into a steep climb) Sram will fight you to get out the gears, where XTR is not as tense and will shift faster to the easier gear.

I will say, I really really miss the cage lockout from Sram. Even with the clutch "off" replacing a chain is almost a 3-hand job, and not something to be done in a hurry (aka during a race...)

When it comes to shifting, if you can get over the delays, lack of compatibility, high price, and lack of availably and simply want the best shifting performance possible then XTR is going to provide the best mechanical performance.

With that said, you won't see me getting rid of my Sram Eagle either, both have a place and both are very good! Can't go wrong with either, Shimano just has the slightest edge, it's a good time to be a mountain biker!


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

From this article: https://www.singletracks.com/blog/m...in-availability-still-waiting-on-cranks-hubs/

"The team at Rotor has tested their rings with the XTR 9100 chain and had the following comment regarding compatibility. The quick link for XTR is a bit narrow so we replace it with another link (our Spanish office did it with a KMC link.)

No noticeable additional noise: when the chain has no tension (on the stand), it seems like it won't seat as well on the ring, but under pressure, pedaling, it works well. After a couple of rides, it gives the appearance of settling in even better."


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

So maybe i am slow but i have fallowed for a while.
Some say XTR is great.
Some say it comes with a bad link.
Some say it is not available yet.
Who is talking about Shimano??????


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

1ma2t said:


> All the issues aside, I will say I am very impressed with the performance of XTR.
> 
> I did a slow mo side-by-side comparison of Shimano XTR 12 Speed vs Sram Eagle here:
> 
> ...


i bought my first high dollar road bike in 1973 in Paris with Dura Ace and my first mountain bike in 1998 with XTR. Been mostly on Shimano ever since with the exception of Eagle on the Fat. My experiences mostly mirror yours with the exception of Red eTap and Di2 XT on two of my rides. While the Di2 XT shifts a tad faster than eTap, both systems shift absolutely marvelously. These electric systems seem to eliminate the differences between mechanical systems. It seems AXS will shift as fast as Di2, I am replacing my eTap with AXS and waiting for Di2 XTR 12 speed to replace the 11 speed Di2 XT. I will be looking for a worthy rider to donate my electrics. Safe Travels All!


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

33red said:


> So maybe i am slow but i have fallowed for a while.
> Some say XTR is great.
> Some say it comes with a bad link.
> Some say it is not available yet.
> Who is talking about Shimano??????


Sad that Shimano bugered up their release of XTR 12 speed. Not a good look. However, all the group set is still not completely released. I am impressed with all the first adopters here that have pieced the deal together and made it work. Some by grinding down chainrings or experimenting with other builder's parts. Very cool imho. Based on several decades of Shimano components, I am sure they will get it all right at some point but this must be a blow to their reputation and bottom line.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

33red said:


> So maybe i am slow but i have fallowed for a while.
> Some say XTR is great.
> Some say it comes with a bad link.
> Some say it is not available yet.
> Who is talking about Shimano??????


Shimano is running around like a beheaded chicken trying to out-manufacture SRAM, because they are bereft of innovative spirit that SRAM seems to foster. So Shimmy created a well recieved group, but are unable to produce it while still matching their desired quality and reliablity.

In short - XTR 9100 is too early to the market.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

uzurpator said:


> Shimano is running around like a beheaded chicken trying to out-manufacture SRAM, because they are bereft of innovative spirit that SRAM seems to foster. So Shimmy created a well recieved group, but are unable to produce it while still matching their desired quality and reliablity.
> 
> In short - XTR 9100 is too early to the market.


Now that is some funny BS.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

uzurpator said:


> Shimano is running around like a beheaded chicken trying to out-manufacture SRAM, because they are bereft of innovative spirit that SRAM seems to foster. So Shimmy created a well recieved group, but are unable to produce it while still matching their desired quality and reliablity.
> 
> In short - XTR 9100 is too early to the market.


I have heard that the fire in their factory had a significant impact on XTR production. I can't verify this information, but it certainly wouldn't have helped. Shimano is not perfect, but this situation is out of character for them. Those of us that prefer Shimano to SRAM usually have legitimate reasons. My own preference developed over decades of experience with both brands.

Current bottom line as I see it- the core of the group is will prove to be the best shifting mechanical mountain bike drivetrain ever with typical excellent reliability. With the exception of the stupid quicklink, everything else is a tangible improvement over previous excellent components. The Scylence system remains a disappointing bit of a mystery, but there are still new and significantly updated hubs. Production problems will be solved. And I really hope Shimano has an answer to AXS in the works, a simple refresh of Di2 will be dead to me on arrival.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

uzurpator said:


> Shimano is running around like a beheaded chicken trying to out-manufacture SRAM, because they are bereft of innovative spirit that SRAM seems to foster. So Shimmy created a well recieved group, but are unable to produce it while still matching their desired quality and reliablity.
> 
> In short - XTR 9100 is too early to the market.


Seems like a more apt analysis would be "Shimano refuses to release products until they know they'll work reliably." To me that's preferable to hitting their release date but having issues come up later. Honestly I don't understand all the hand ringing over a few-month delay to a subset of one group. All these hot takes along the lines of "well Shimano is done their reputation will never recover" seriously baffle me.


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## 1ma2t (Aug 24, 2012)

33red said:


> So maybe i am slow but i have fallowed for a while.
> 1. Some say XTR is great.
> 2. Some say it comes with a bad link.
> 3. Some say it is not available yet.
> Who is talking about Shimano??????


1. XTR is great - see my review at the top of the page. #801
2. The Link is too narrow for non-OEM shimano chainrings
3. Zero availability in US, limited availability in Europe. Chainring or Cranks are not available anywhere; m9100 cranks are significantly delayed and shimano is going to provide non-XTR mt800 (heavier) option around April.


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## 1ma2t (Aug 24, 2012)

Pedalon2018 said:


> i bought my first high dollar road bike in 1973 in Paris with Dura Ace and my first mountain bike in 1998 with XTR. Been mostly on Shimano ever since with the exception of Eagle on the Fat. My experiences mostly mirror yours with the exception of Red eTap and Di2 XT on two of my rides. While the Di2 XT shifts a tad faster than eTap, both systems shift absolutely marvelously. These electric systems seem to eliminate the differences between mechanical systems. It seems AXS will shift as fast as Di2, I am replacing my eTap with AXS and waiting for Di2 XTR 12 speed to replace the 11 speed Di2 XT. I will be looking for a worthy rider to donate my electrics. Safe Travels All!


I have never owned an "e" groupset, but I do hear shifting performance is remarkable.

But since I couldn't speak to it, I did specify, "If you simply want the best shifting performance possible, then XTR is going to provide the best *mechanical* performance. "


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DrewBird said:


> Seems like a more apt analysis would be "Shimano refuses to release products until they know they'll work reliably." To me that's preferable to hitting their release date but having issues come up later. Honestly I don't understand all the hand ringing over a few-month delay to a subset of one group. All these hot takes along the lines of "well Shimano is done their reputation will never recover" seriously baffle me.


No joke. M9100 is by all accounts a really solid kit when you install the whole system together. It will take time for aftermarket chainring providers to make xtr quick link friendly chainrings. But it will happen. Same thing when SRAM released narrow-wide with their first 1x drivetrain. It took some time for the aftermarket companies to catch up. They did, and nobody remembers the wrangling over the new chainring standard.

In some respects, I'm glad my bike build that M9100 is going on is taking so long. Maybe it will be easier to source when I am finally ready to buy it.

The only real annoyance I have is that Shimano announced a bunch of stuff as part of this group that they've decided to nerf due to production difficulties. Production difficulties happen to everybody. SRAM has not been immune to problems...though SRAM seems to send stuff into the market faster, and then has to recall some of it. Shimano doesn't recall so much. I'm good with that.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I was very interested in the 11speed wide ratio Shimano XTR. I prefer the gear ratios, ground clearance, and weight. But it's been canceled. 

I'm currently on Eagle (i'm a 1 bike guy) so just going to take the easy option and swap to AXS.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Harold said:


> No joke. M9100 is by all accounts a really solid kit when you install the whole system together. It will take time for aftermarket chainring providers to make xtr quick link friendly chainrings.


This is the only thing I have an actual beef about. I know this is probably crossing a line into equinus terminus clobberus, but I am still having trouble figuring out just WTF they were thinking. There are two things about the new chains causing incompatibility issues- the length of the inner plates due to the tapered extensions, and the quicklink. The plates are a legitimate design change with apparent benefits, and requires a modification to tooth profile shape for many chainring designs. Fine, I get that, I am excited about the improved shifting.

But the quicklink problem is straight up BS. Thinner chainrings to suit a single link? It is obvious, especially when comparing the Shimano link to the Sram one, that they skipped a step in making the damn thing. If you compare the Eagle and XTR chains, the only significant difference is the length of the inner plates. The details of the profiling and chamfers is also different but not radically. And the internal width is very similar if not identical. So why supply a link that doesn't match the rest of the chain? Ridiculous, especially from Shimano. At least Eagle quicklinks are plentiful and relatively cheap.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Velodonata said:


> So why supply a link that doesn't match the rest of the chain? Ridiculous, especially from Shimano. At least Eagle quicklinks are plentiful and relatively cheap.


I do agree with the fact that the xtr quick link being different than ALL OF THE OTHERS on the chain and therefore requiring the chainring tooth shapes to be changed is just weird.


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## bkrupp1 (Feb 23, 2019)

Got my full group and I'm loving it.


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

They look like the new MT900 cranks? where did you manage to get them from?
I cannot find anybody listing them for sale yet!


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## bkrupp1 (Feb 23, 2019)

MBO Rider said:


> They look like the new MT900 cranks? where did you manage to get them from?
> I cannot find anybody listing them for sale yet!


Yes, they are the new Black cranks. Got lucky with my local shop (Action Wheel Sport) and Shimano rep. I was told only 5-10 sets of these were delivered in the time frame I got them. I've had my group for 2 weeks or so.


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

You are very lucky, they look great and go well with your frame. I will keep looking @ UK & Germany bike shops.
Maybe looks like you used a SRAM quicklink any particular reason why?


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

bkrupp1 said:


> Yes, they are the new Black cranks. Got lucky with my local shop (Action Wheel Sport) and Shimano rep. I was told only 5-10 sets of these were delivered in the time frame I got them. I've had my group for 2 weeks or so.


You have done very well. Enjoy while most of us must wait.


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## bkrupp1 (Feb 23, 2019)

MBO Rider said:


> You are very lucky, they look great and go well with your frame. I will keep looking @ UK & Germany bike shops.
> Maybe looks like you used a SRAM quicklink any particular reason why?


That was just temp. I have the xtr link on now and it's working as expected.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

MBO Rider said:


> You are very lucky, they look great and go well with your frame. I will keep looking @ UK & Germany bike shops.
> Maybe looks like you used a SRAM quicklink any particular reason why?


Curious what UK sites you use? I'm aware of bike24 and R2


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

I used Chain Reaction for the rear derailleur and the rest from Bike 24 and Bike Discount. At the moment I am using XT cranks, AB chainring and Sram chain so not getting the benefits of Hyperglide+
The Black Cranks look cool and I still like the standard way Hollowtech II cranks bolt together.


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## Dagonger (Dec 8, 2011)

Wolftooth just announced today new chainrings compatible with Shimano 12sp...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

yeti575inCA said:


> Wolftooth just announced today new chainrings compatible with Shimano 12sp...


good to hear. looks like only round Shimano direct mount and round CINCH direct mount so far, but more to come.

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/shimano-12spd-hyperglide-compatible-chainrings

Looks like this will probably be what I get for mine (RF Turbine CINCH crank).


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

But no 28t options


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

None of this matters to me until Shimano opens their licensing for non oem component manufacturers. The only licensed hub drivers are Shimano, DT, I9.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Preston67 said:


> But no 28t options


agreed. I'd rather use a 28t with the 10-45, but I'll push a 30t if that is my only choice.

If RF introduces a 28t compatible ring before I buy everything, then it might sway me.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Harold said:


> agreed. I'd rather use a 28t with the 10-45, but I'll push a 30t if that is my only choice.
> 
> If RF introduces a 28t compatible ring before I buy everything, then it might sway me.


I guess some distributors/retailers are reading so 28 is a MUST for me and smaller is great for my fat bike. There is no way i will use 30 or more.


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## bkrupp1 (Feb 23, 2019)

Harold said:


> agreed. I'd rather use a 28t with the 10-45, but I'll push a 30t if that is my only choice.
> 
> If RF introduces a 28t compatible ring before I buy everything, then it might sway me.


I was able to get the MT-900 crankset, but only a 34t was available. I said screw it, I'll make it work for now. Hasn't changed how I ride by any means. But then again, I do live in FL (no crazy climbing) and I mostly jump or mess around


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

bkrupp1 said:


> I was able to get the MT-900 crankset, but only a 34t was available. I said screw it, I'll make it work for now. Hasn't changed how I ride by any means. But then again, I do live in FL (no crazy climbing) and I mostly jump or mess around


Yeah, my riding environment is a little different. ha.

I live in Western NC. Most rides involve a climb that goes for several miles. And if it's not really long, it often gets quite steep. So I can't really win. Gotta have a reasonably low gear. The bike I'm building should be a better climber than my existing bike, so 30t might be just right for my needs. But I'd rather have a smaller chainring to start with, just in case.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Harold said:


> Yeah, my riding environment is a little different. ha.
> 
> I live in Western NC. Most rides involve a climb that goes for several miles. And if it's not really long, it often gets quite steep. So I can't really win. Gotta have a reasonably low gear. The bike I'm building should be a better climber than my existing bike, so 30t might be just right for my needs. But I'd rather have a smaller chainring to start with, just in case.


Mo money but wolf tooth has what you need


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

1ma2t said:


> All the issues aside, I will say I am very impressed with the performance of XTR.
> 
> I did a slow mo side-by-side comparison of Shimano XTR 12 Speed vs Sram Eagle here:
> 
> ...


Well, dont forget eagle is almost 3 years old now!


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

cycloholic said:


> Well, dont forget eagle is almost 3 years old now!


So what, they could have taken their time to properly engineer it or rush it. We know which they chose.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

MBO Rider said:


> They look like the new MT900 cranks? where did you manage to get them from?
> I cannot find anybody listing them for sale yet!


There was a groupset with brakes and mt900 crank for $1200 on pinkbike.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

TwoTone said:


> So what, they could have taken their time to properly engineer it or rush it. We know which they chose.


I think you are a bit unfair with sram. While i also got an "issue" with eagle in the past, i solved it(it just needed a really smooth cable routing that was a bit tricky to achieve in my frame) i have never experienced ANY issue. What is yours?!

Have you seen anything else than eagle in the past 3 years in XC racing? Excluding the shimano sponsoring, the majority was riding eagle for a reason!

To be fair, eagle was and actually is still innovate:
1) Three years was the only complete group with that range.
2) Cassette is a pieace of art. CNC machined that is by far the most durable cassette (in terms of wear).
3) Chain also, by far the most durable.
4) Eagle chainring is the only one that i have never dropped a chain with it! (While Shimano was a joke in their rings).

The only point i can give you is lifetime of eagle chainrings! Those are wear out quickly!


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

cycloholic said:


> I think you are a bit unfair with sram. While i also got an "issue" with eagle in the past, i solved it(it just needed a really smooth cable routing that was a bit tricky to achieve in my frame) i have never experienced ANY issue. What is yours?!
> 
> Have you seen anything else than eagle in the past 3 years in XC racing? Excluding the shimano sponsoring, the majority was riding eagle for a reason!
> 
> ...


Personaly i think it is obvious in the last few years SRAM has been the model to copy. There is a reason. OK they do a bit different for marketing reasosns or for legal reasons.
Maybe the top person at Shimano gave the order to focus on electronic betting it was the future but whatever the reason they felt behind. Here some defend Shitmano but they have no real arguments. The 11 S 11-42 lacked range, the 11-46 was just a patch. So their 11S was not competitive and their 12S was absent. It is still missing so SRAM leads no question. My 11 S 10-42 is the best transmission ever and i am 61 YO with 5 bikes. I had a great 27 speeds XT on my 2000 bike. They had good years. Maybe they will get back? Maybe playing with an electric motor took the developping $ away? Their is too noisy, not a success.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

33red said:


> Personaly i think it is obvious in the last few years SRAM has been the model to copy. There is a reason. OK they do a bit different for marketing reasosns or for legal reasons.
> Maybe the top person at Shimano gave the order to focus on electronic betting it was the future but whatever the reason they felt behind. Here some defend Shitmano but they have no real arguments. The 11 S 11-42 lacked range, the 11-46 was just a patch. So their 11S was not competitive and their 12S was absent. It is still missing so SRAM leads no question. My 11 S 10-42 is the best transmission ever and i am 61 YO with 5 bikes. I had a great 27 speeds XT on my 2000 bike. They had good years. Maybe they will get back? Maybe playing with an electric motor took the developping $ away? Their is too noisy, not a success.


Nothing to argue it's been beaten to death. Seriously, the whole syncing is garbage. Before Eagle, people would complain if their drivetrain skipped, now it's a feature just because. Just read through the huge Eagle thread and the band aids people have to come up with to keep the chain from getting jammed and ripping the RD off.

You love it and thinks it's great more power to you all. But don't come on and pretend it's some great innovation. Pointing out it's flaws doesn't make someone a Shimano fan either.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TwoTone said:


> You love it and thinks it's great more power to you all. But don't come on and pretend it's some great innovation. Pointing out it's flaws doesn't make someone a Shimano fan either.


For as big of a deal as this is for you, I ride with riders on Eagle damn near every other day and have never seen this become any kind of issue on a ride. I'm on 11 because I simply don't need more, but with all the new bikes sold with this, I really fail to see these issues being brought up. If what you said is true, it would be the #1 thing going on and they'd all be dumping the Eagle drivetrains for more reliable ones. Just look at the most recent threads in the "drivetrain forum". It just isn't happening.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Jayem said:


> For as big of a deal as this is for you, I ride with riders on Eagle damn near every other day and have never seen this become any kind of issue on a ride. I'm on 11 because I simply don't need more, but with all the new bikes sold with this, I really fail to see these issues being brought up. If what you said is true, it would be the #1 thing going on and they'd all be dumping the Eagle drivetrains for more reliable ones. Just look at the most recent threads in the "drivetrain forum". It just isn't happening.


I think most post are honest. Many create their problems by upgrading a good bike and end up with new problems/issues. It might be a bad chainline or many other things. I guess it is like cars a few are unlucky and even selecting a good model end up with a lemon.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

cycloholic said:


> I think you are a bit unfair with sram.


Don't bother, you can see a comment from him on almost every page in this topic where he talks about "proper engineering" and "band-aids on Eagle". I think I might have seen the same comments under some youtube videos too. :lol:


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Jayem said:


> For as big of a deal as this is for you, I ride with riders on Eagle damn near every other day and have never seen this become any kind of issue on a ride...


Maybe it's not super common, but he's not making that stuff up. N/W cogs are a stupid idea, and SRAM derailleurs are generally inferior in design and construction in my own experience. The differences aren't as significant as they used to be but they seem to persist. And I try to give SRAM credit where they deserve it. The problems I have with Shimano are usually more about what they don't make than how they make it. And their reputation has been earned over a long time. I have stupid amounts of old Shimano parts that would probably have never worn out but are just too obsolete to use any more. SRAM tends to be overrepresented in the "broken junk I should have thrown away but saved for some stupid reason" box.


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## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

Jayem said:


> For as big of a deal as this is for you, I ride with riders on Eagle damn near every other day and have never seen this become any kind of issue on a ride. I'm on 11 because I simply don't need more, but with all the new bikes sold with this, I really fail to see these issues being brought up. If what you said is true, it would be the #1 thing going on and they'd all be dumping the Eagle drivetrains for more reliable ones. Just look at the most recent threads in the "drivetrain forum". It just isn't happening.


I was just thinking the same thing... When trying to decide on what to replace my underwhelming XTR 9000 /SRAM Franken drivetrain with last year I read that massive Eagle thread with the talk of this big 'chain out of sync' issue. I still went with Eagle, and after a few months on it I've yet to experience the 'issue'. Seems overstated around here, to me.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Jayem said:


> For as big of a deal as this is for you, I ride with riders on Eagle damn near every other day and have never seen this become any kind of issue on a ride. I'm on 11 because I simply don't need more, but with all the new bikes sold with this, I really fail to see these issues being brought up. If what you said is true, it would be the #1 thing going on and they'd all be dumping the Eagle drivetrains for more reliable ones. Just look at the most recent threads in the "drivetrain forum". It just isn't happening.


I really don't give a **** one way or the other cause I won't be going 12 speed, but I will call out people pretending their aren't issues with Eagle.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

PlanB said:


> I was just thinking the same thing... When trying to decide on what to replace my underwhelming XTR 9000 /SRAM Franken drivetrain with last year I read that massive Eagle thread with the talk of this big 'chain out of sync' issue. I still went with Eagle, and after a few months on it I've yet to experience the 'issue'. Seems overstated around here, to me.


Not sync issue here also, as long as the b bolt is correct dialed! One more innovation so the chain won't drop when backpedaling! But if you dialed it wrong, yep, sometimes you have a sync issue!


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

TwoTone said:


> I really don't give a **** one way or the other cause I won't be going 12 speed, but I will call out people pretending their aren't issues with Eagle.


Well, i dont have any issue and i'm using eagle at XC XCM racing since two years :O
Why i have to pretend it?!
How is possible to have an opinion for a drivetrain you never had?!


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

TwoTone said:


> So what, they could have taken their time to properly engineer it or rush it. We know which they chose.


I forgot to mention that shimano is the one that still doesnt fix their brakes in their new groupset!

You can skip to the last replies to see what a mechanic of shimano said about it!

https://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/xtr-m9120-pumping-up-1094058.html#post13981293


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

cycloholic said:


> I forgot to mention that shimano is the one that still doesnt fix their brakes in their new groupset!
> 
> You can skip to the last replies to see what a mechanic of shimano said about it!
> 
> https://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/xtr-m9120-pumping-up-1094058.html#post13981293


So much brand bashing on here. Anyway, I have XX1 12s and would be interested in trying out XTR after they open hub driver licensing. I've had pretty good success the last couple years with SRAM but am interested in smooth shifting under power. Probably by the time they release their hold on micro spline drivers there will be some long term reviews on the drivetrain anyway.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

This is how I look at it...why would I even think about having to rebuild my rear wheel that has the XD driver with the new Shimano unproven Micro Spline rear hub. I'm just going to use my favorite cassette X01 or XX1 Eagle 12 speed that is built way better the the NEW XTR Frankenstein cassette made out at least 4 different materials. All Ti would have set them apart from the rest!! Never been a fan of Shimano cassette's. I get 2 seasons out of the Sram X01 or XX1 cassette, no cassette on the market is made better!! NONE!!
Now I do love the Shimano XTR shifter and derailure and have the new XTR 12 speed coming from Germany. Will also use the Sram Eagle XX1 chain also the best made in Portugal. This will be my 1st 12 speed system but have using Shimano/Sram combo 11 speed for 2 years now with the best reliability I have ever had compared to all Sram XX1 setup. I like how the profile of Shimano derailure doesn't stick as far as the Sram rear derailure thus less prone for hitting things on trail or if you lay the bike over in crash. I'm going new Cane Creek Ti crank and AB chain ring, love the AB stuff!!


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

cycloholic said:


> Well, i dont have any issue and i'm using eagle at XC XCM racing since two years :O
> Why i have to pretend it?!
> How is possible to have an opinion for a drivetrain you never had?!


Because the wide-narrow cogs are a fact. 
The chain not syncing every shift is a fact.
The chain having to skip to re sync is a fact.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

TwoTone said:


> Because the wide-narrow cogs are a fact.
> The chain not syncing every shift is a fact.
> The chain having to skip to re sync is a fact.


Yes if you don't know how to dial it correctly!


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

cycloholic said:


> Yes if you don't know how to dial it correctly!


It's nothing to do with the setup, it's a symptom of the narrow wide on the cassette.
I have both systems, 12 spd XTR and X01 Eagle. Both shift fine and I have never had any real problems with Eagle so I do think the narrow wide issue is overstated. That said, it definitely happens. Look closely at your Eagle drivetrain with the bike in a stand. Sometimes, when shifted into the largest cog, the chain will ride on the top of the cassette as it hasn't synced with the narrow wide when it shifted up. In the stand it just rides there on top. When riding, it skips a tooth under load resulting in a clunk as the chain drops down onto the narrow wide correctly.

I will say that the XTR is the smoother of the two when shifting and also less sensitive to the setup of the b-tension.


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

andynunn said:


> ....it's a symptom of the narrow wide on the cassette.


cassettes have narrow and wide teeth on the cogs?


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

tdc_worm said:


> cassettes have narrow and wide teeth on the cogs?


My original XX1 upper derailleur pulley was NW, but I got a replacement set and the upper pulley was normal with only a NW for the bottom pulley. I think SRAM did a mid cycle product change there. I've had 2 X01 cassettes, no NW teeth on them. It's the upper pulley.


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

T


farfromovin said:


> My original XX1 upper derailleur pulley was NW, but I got a replacement set and the upper pulley was normal with only a NW for the bottom pulley. I think SRAM did a mid cycle product change there. I've had 2 X01 cassettes, no NW teeth on them. It's the upper pulley.


Look again. Largest alloy cog on cassette is narrow wide.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

farfromovin said:


> My original XX1 upper derailleur pulley was NW, but I got a replacement set and the upper pulley was normal with only a NW for the bottom pulley. I think SRAM did a mid cycle product change there.


that NW pulley was also a terrible design decision. I was riding in sedona a couple years ago with a friend who was on a demo bike that was so equipped. damn chain kept jamming because it wasn't syncing up right with that pulley.


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

andynunn said:


> T
> 
> Look again. Largest alloy cog on cassette is narrow wide.


Actually, largest two cogs. Look at the back of them.


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

andynunn said:


> Actually, largest two cogs. Look at the back of them.


ah. please describe to us the reasoning for implementation of "narrow wide" in mountain bike drive trains


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

tdc_worm said:


> ah. please describe to us the reasoning for implementation of "narrow wide" in mountain bike drive trains


Wide is to have a stable chain, narrow is to allow easy shifting, so the best of both worlds when done properly. It started in the front and with the large pinions in the rear it became used there also.


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

33red said:


> ....the rear it became used there also.


if this premise were true, then the one odd toothed cog in Eagle (21t) or any of the 5 odd teethed cogss in XTR (21, 33, 39, 45, and 51t) would all serve to get our chains out of sync with the even numbered cogs as we shifted through the cassette...either that or we would have to move to half link chains like are used on BMX bikes. narrow/wide, by definition, requires a narrow and wide set of chain links to sync with a narrow and wide set of teeth.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

tdc_worm said:


> if this premise were true, then the one odd toothed cog in Eagle (21t) or any of the 5 odd teethed cogss in XTR (21, 33, 39, 45, and 51t) would all serve to get our chains out of sync with the even numbered cogs as we shifted through the cassette...either that or we would have to move to half link chains like are used on BMX bikes. narrow/wide, by definition, requires a narrow and wide set of chain links to sync with a narrow and wide set of teeth.


I am no pro but i think it is only used on the 42 and 50 the smaller are just regular. When cassettes were 36 or less they had no problem. The 11th and 12th are not inline with the front ring so they are at a disadvantage. For Shimano i have no clue, i am real happy with my 11 S 10-42 SRAM. I think ZTTO is using a 1/2 version of N/W in the rear. They try and eventually find something that works.


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

33red said:


> I am no pro but i think it is only used on the 42 and 50 the smaller are just regular. When cassettes were 36 or less they had no problem. The 11th and 12th are not inline with the front ring so they are at a disadvantage. For Shimano i have no clue, i am real happy with my 11 S 10-42 SRAM. I think ZTTO is using a 1/2 version of N/W in the rear. They try and eventually find something that works.


It has nothing to do with being a pro. It's a simple math issue. Take the 51t low cog on xtr. If tooth #1 was wide, tooth #51 would be wide, also, causing the chain to get out of sync on every other rotation of the cassette.

For narrow/wide to be implemented, an even number of teeth is essential. This is why you don't see odd teeth on front chainrings on 1x drivetrains.

What is causing a "narrow/wide* appearance on the cassette are shift ramps that help walk a chain in to larger cogs. The teeth on those cogs in no way mirrors the profile of a front chainring.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

tdc_worm said:


> It has nothing to do with being a pro. It's a simple math issue. Take the 51t low cog on xtr. If tooth #1 was wide, tooth #51 would be wide, also, causing the chain to get out of sync on every other rotation of the cassette.
> 
> For narrow/wide to be implemented, an even number of teeth is essential. This is why you don't see odd teeth on front chainrings on 1x drivetrains.
> 
> What is causing a "narrow/wide* appearance on the cassette are shift ramps that help walk a chain in to larger cogs. The teeth on those cogs in no way mirrors the profile of a front chainring.


To me this thread is confusing.
The whole system is not available yet.
Then i also read i realy enjoy it.
Shifting under load, does it mean i can climb out of the saddle and shift problem free?
Will the chain and gears need more frequent replacement from all that abuse?
There are legal issues, technical issues, delays, more delays....


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

Hate to distract from all the dead-horse-beating. Wolf Tooth XTR 12-specific chainring for RF Cinch showed up today. Wide teeth are a very different shape the WT's previous offerings, beveled edges instead of stepped. Also slightly narrower overall. No data yet on how it actually works, but will give it a try this weekend and report.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

tdc_worm said:


> ah. please describe to us the reasoning for implementation of "narrow wide" in mountain bike drive trains


To avoid chain drop to smaller cogs when backpedaling


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

cycloholic said:


> To avoid chain drop to smaller cogs when backpedaling


That is a possibility, another would be marketing.
All new, all cool, w a y better like tubeless was better, now it turned into ****, U need noodles in there.
Do U want them narrow or wide?


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Of course you dont need it! You can still have backpedaling drop chain if you prefer! I prefer N/W and not backpedaling. Thing is that in the same space like 8 or 9 speed now we have 12! It is supersensitive when adjusting and it needs to be dialed 100% correctly. If you dialed it up correct, and you shift 100 times to two big rings you have a possibility like 1% to miss sync, then it syncs again automatically. If this is an issue for some, so yes sram engineering is poor!!
Was it a shimano thread?


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

33red said:


> That is a possibility, another would be marketing.
> All new, all cool, w a y better like tubeless was better, now it turned into ****, U need noodles in there.
> Do U want them narrow or wide?


I might be wrong but I don't think i've ever seen SRAM advertise that there are narrow wide cogs on Eagle cassettes. In fact most people don't know it, and a lot of them don't even believe you when you tell them there are N/W cogs on the cassette.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

cycloholic said:


> Of course you dont need it! You can still have backpedaling drop chain if you prefer! I prefer N/W and not backpedaling. Thing is that in the same space like 8 or 9 speed now we have 12! It is supersensitive when adjusting and it needs to be dialed 100% correctly. If you dialed it up correct, and you shift 100 times to two big rings you have a possibility like 1% to miss sync, then it syncs again automatically. If this is an issue for some, so yes sram enginearing is poor!!
> Was it a shimano thread?


I had a great 27 speeds XTR on my 2000 bike that i sold recently because i needed space. Good luck finding such a great Shimano on any retailer floor. No back pedaling problem, no drop chain problem, no need for replacing nor adjusting. It was too good they killed it to replace it with the new Shitmano.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

33red said:


> I had a great 27 speeds XTR on my 2000 bike that i sold recently because i needed space. Good luck finding such a great Shimano on any retailer floor. No back pedaling problem, no drop chain problem, no need for replacing nor adjusting. It was too good they killed it to replace it with the new Shitmano.


While it's not trendy, there is still stuff like the Deore M6000. I think it's amazing what kind of tech you can get nowadays on lower end groups. I'd happily take a brand new M6000 group over an ancient XTR. The whole group costs around ~300-310€ (with brakes). You get a clutch RD, a nice integrated crankset with fiberglass inserts on the chainrings, side swing FD, stuff like that. Nice range, no back pedalling issue with an 11-36, dirt cheap to run.

I agree that not everything is moving in the right direction when it comes to drivetrains. But the current drivetrains work for a lot of people, so the manufacturers are pushing it even more. Certain things also become trendy, so people who have no clue about how things work will also jump on the bandwagon. Sadly that's just how the world works.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

DrewBird said:


> Hate to distract from all the dead-horse-beating. Wolf Tooth XTR 12-specific chainring for RF Cinch showed up today. Wide teeth are a very different shape the WT's previous offerings, beveled edges instead of stepped. Also slightly narrower overall. No data yet on how it actually works, but will give it a try this weekend and report.


Nice! Looks good, Wolf Tooth always seems to get this stuff right. WT went to a beveled tooth shape a while ago, their early rings had the more standard looking stepped N/W shape that the majority of manufacturers use. But this is a significant update, the bevels are much more pronounced as was expected, and it looks like there are some other things going on too. Interested to hear your ride report, although it's often a "no news is good news" situation with core drivetrain parts.

One thing I wonder about is if all the manufacturers are implementing a thinner wide tooth profile than would otherwise be used as a response to the overly tight quicklink supplied with these chains. I can see why they might need to, and it sucks.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

DrewBird said:


> Wolf Tooth XTR 12-specific chainring for RF Cinch showed up today. Wide teeth are a very different shape the WT's previous offerings, beveled edges instead of stepped. Also slightly narrower overall. No data yet on how it actually works, but will give it a try this weekend and report.
> 
> View attachment 1240523


I see that the smallest chainring they offer for this application is a 30t. Do you know why?


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

cycloholic said:


> To avoid chain drop to smaller cogs when backpedaling


Having ANY cog with an odd number of teeth would imply that your premise is incorrect. It would cause the chain to get out of sync, thus exacerbating chain drop when back pedaling.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

Velodonata said:


> One thing I wonder about is if all the manufacturers are implementing a thinner wide tooth profile than would otherwise be used as a response to the overly tight quicklink supplied with these chains. I can see why they might need to, and it sucks.


I've initially set it up with the Shimano QL, which seems to work fine with bike in the stand. I have a couple SRAM 12 QLs just in case. We'll see how it goes on the trail.

RE: sizes smaller than 30, my guess is that WT's initial goal is to get something out to consumers as quickly as possible, so they went with the most common sizes to cover their bases. Wouldn't be surprised if more come along later, especially as this design trickles down to XT and beyond. And while I won't rehash gear ratio debates, I'd imagine that the option of a 51T rear makes 30T front plenty low for most riders.


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## bkrupp1 (Feb 23, 2019)

To be this much nitpicking about high end drive trains, you guys must all be amazing riders. I ride at a pretty high level and beat the **** out of my bike, but I don't have half the complaints/issues on either XTR or XX1. They are both awesome groups!


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

33red said:


> like tubeless was better, now it turned into ****, U need noodles in there.


Uh...do you have any idea why tubeless is better and why people are adding in cushions?


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Sidewalk said:


> Uh...do you have any idea why tubeless is better and why people are adding in cushions?


Isn't it just marketing?😂😂😂


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

This may change later, but for my next bike I've decided to do an 11-speed Shimano setup, and then do the E-thirteen 9-46t cassette with an XD driver hub. Besides the $215 cassette it's a relatively cheap setup and provides the same range as this new Shimano 12-speed, or the SRAM GX groupset. And you can use Shimano for everything but the cassette (and hub). Win-win.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

richj8990 said:


> This may change later, but for my next bike I've decided to do an 11-speed Shimano setup, and then do the E-thirteen 9-46t cassette with an XD driver hub. Besides the $215 cassette it's a relatively cheap setup and provides the same range as this new Shimano 12-speed, or the SRAM GX groupset. And you can use Shimano for everything but the cassette (and hub). Win-win.


 Good luck with that!!


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

I just got my MT900 Crankset 170mm 34T my LBS in UK ordered it yesterday and it came today and even included the chainring tool. I wonder why online stores are not stocking this yet!


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

MBO Rider said:


> I just got my MT900 Crankset 170mm 34T my LBS in UK ordered it yesterday and it came today and even included the chainring tool. I wonder why online stores are not stocking this yet!
> View attachment 1240870


Nice. Lighter than I thought


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Damn that's heavy. Over a 150g more than an xx1 dub.


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## RSAmerica (Aug 24, 2012)

Difficulty boat anchors compared to the RF Next SL G4 175mm I will be using.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

RSAmerica said:


> Difficulty boat anchors compared to the RF Next SL G4 175mm I will be using.


But won't have pedal inserts that come unglued :thumbsup:


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

alexbn921 said:


> Damn that's heavy. Over a 150g more than an xx1 dub.


150g more and $285 less.


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## RSAmerica (Aug 24, 2012)

TwoTone said:


> But won't have pedal inserts that come unglued :thumbsup:


Definitely true for big strong rides, I have seen plenty of photos of broken ones. I have them on 3 bikes with no problems, I buy them cheap off eBay.
I think RF's solution is the Next R crank @ 495 grams.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Nice. Lighter than I thought


thats odd they went back to pinchbolts. i thought the chainring was the issue, but that interface looks same as the 9120 i have.

my 9120 crank also came with chainring tool and lockring.

i hate the cranks they're so chunky at the heels.


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## 1ma2t (Aug 24, 2012)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Nice. Lighter than I thought


That's heavier than I thought! My Sram Stylo 7k alloy cranks weigh the same. (551g + 55g AB chainring) Really bummed that XTR cranks are delayed so much...


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## PhoS (May 12, 2009)

This stupid crank debacle is holding up my build. Not a bad weight on the MT900, i'll probably end up on a set of those if they ever show up to the distributors..


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

PhoS said:


> This stupid crank debacle is holding up my build. Not a bad weight on the MT900, i'll probably end up on a set of those if they ever show up to the distributors..


Or you could pick up some RF Turbines and the Wolf Tooth ring and be riding in a week...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DrewBird said:


> Or you could pick up some RF Turbines and the Wolf Tooth ring and be riding in a week...


For a ton less money, too.


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## PhoS (May 12, 2009)

DrewBird said:


> Or you could pick up some RF Turbines and the Wolf Tooth ring and be riding in a week...


Would do that, my last set of turbines were great. Already bought an AB ring for the shimano though.. :madman:

Edit: Also my trails are also snowed out at the moment.


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## aja07 (Jul 16, 2018)

There is a further difference between the XTR 9120 cranks and the alternative MT900 crank being the Q-factor. The XTR 9120 is 168mm and the MT900 is 172. 
Compared to my previous XT's (2x10) which were 176 the 168 of the new XTR puts the crank a fair bit closer to the chain stays and I find my heels occasionally hitting the chain stays. 
With the XTR q-factor of 168 I find that my feet sit slightly outboard on my pedals ie the 168 feels narrow to me, and I have resorted to putting a washer on the pedals to widen the stance. 
This is just FYI as some ppl may prefer the wider q-factor of the alternative MT900 cranks. I think I would have. 
PS I am on flats, may not be an issue for ppl on clipless


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

PhoS said:


> Would do that, my last set of turbines were great. Already bought an AB ring for the shimano though.. :madman:
> 
> Edit: Also my trails are also snowed out at the moment.


I bought some Turbines for the bike I'm intending to run M9100 on. Have another set on my other mtb that have a few years and a few thousand miles on. Dead reliable. Reasonably light for an alu crank, too. If nobody releases a 28t shimano 12spd compatible ring for them soon (come on race face, I hear you're working on it), I'll probably wind up with the WT 30t.


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## PhoS (May 12, 2009)

Harold said:


> I bought some Turbines for the bike I'm intending to run M9100 on. Have another set on my other mtb that have a few years and a few thousand miles on. Dead reliable. Reasonably light for an alu crank, too. If nobody releases a 28t shimano 12spd compatible ring for them soon (come on race face, I hear you're working on it), I'll probably wind up with the WT 30t.


Ever tried an oval? You'd probably be pretty happy with a 30t oval compared to a 28t roundie. I switched over a couple years ago and love em. What I really wanted to do was the WT CAMO ring in steel but they told me they aren't planning on making one at the moment. Also my turbines which were acquired in 2015 are still on the original BB. :eekster: Never had that kind of result with sram, shimano, or king..


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Harold said:


> I bought some Turbines for the bike I'm intending to run M9100 on. Have another set on my other mtb that have a few years and a few thousand miles on. Dead reliable. Reasonably light for an alu crank, too. If nobody releases a 28t shimano 12spd compatible ring for them soon (come on race face, I hear you're working on it), I'll probably wind up with the WT 30t.


oval 30T absolute black i bet will feel like a 28T round. i'm not liking my oval 30T compared to normal 30T FWIW.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Yes, I've tried an oval. I actually have a lightly used absolute black 30t oval just sitting around. It isn't quite the same, and for me, it's a take it or leave it thing. The "improvements" are far more subtle than marketing and other riders let on.

I removed it from my other bike so I could install a steel 28t ring. I like durability.

Since you mention it, though, it will probably be worn enough to work fine with the xtr chain. 

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Harold said:


> Yes, I've tried an oval. I actually have a lightly used absolute black 30t oval just sitting around. It isn't quite the same, and for me, it's a take it or leave it thing. The "improvements" are far more subtle than marketing and other riders let on.
> 
> I removed it from my other bike so I could install a steel 28t ring. I like durability.
> 
> ...


it seems ovals are a bit more complex to set up. I ride two different bikes with ovals. One rocks the other not so much. Getting the rings properly oriented on the crank is the key. I do not fully understand how to do that so I experiment. Nailed one and searching on the other bike.


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## PhoS (May 12, 2009)

Harold said:


> Yes, I've tried an oval. I actually have a lightly used absolute black 30t oval just sitting around. It isn't quite the same, and for me, it's a take it or leave it thing. The "improvements" are far more subtle than marketing and other riders let on.
> 
> I removed it from my other bike so I could install a steel 28t ring. I like durability.
> 
> ...





Pedalon2018 said:


> it seems ovals are a bit more complex to set up. I ride two different bikes with ovals. One rocks the other not so much. Getting the rings properly oriented on the crank is the key. I do not fully understand how to do that so I experiment. Nailed one and searching on the other bike.


I've only ever used the AB rings, my current one is advanced one position from the default. It was a game changer for me personally. Big time reduction in knee discomfort, less stalling out on grindy steeps. Definitely prefer the feeling of the oval clipped in because I feel like I can spin more fluidly. I tend to mash more on flats so round is ok there.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

Pedalon2018 said:


> it seems ovals are a bit more complex to set up. I ride two different bikes with ovals. One rocks the other not so much. Getting the rings properly oriented on the crank is the key. I do not fully understand how to do that so I experiment. Nailed one and searching on the other bike.


AB rings have a mark that you align with the DS crank. Pretty easy once you know that. 
I go by memory, but think the AB rings come without instructions, so you need to go to their website to verify. I have an AB 26T on my fattie and an 36T on my hybrid.

Off-road or on snow they oval have the biggest advantage since it smoothes out the torque. i got much less rear slipping and being stuck in snow after switching to oval. It also feels good on the hybrid and spins well... but have no back-to-back comparison with the same drivetrain to a round ring.


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## unrealityshow (Oct 29, 2017)

dgw7000 said:


> Good luck with that!!


Works really well for me on both my bikes.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

2 rides on M9100 w/Wolftooth ring up front, and I'm really happy with it. Shifting is precise and instantaneous even under load, range is great (10-51 out back), it's silent and you generally forget about it during the ride as you should for a good drivetrain. Only annoyances are 1) Shifter position is not ideal when married with SRAM brakes (love my Codes) but it's been ever thus, and 2) Occasionally it seems like the upshift clicker is a bit "notchy" i.e. you really have to push hard on it. Clicks are very positive, but maybe a bit more positive than I'm used to. Hoping this will break in a bit over time.


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

Finally got my XTR 9100/Sram XO Franken-drivetrain set up....can't ride it outside yet, but at least on the stand it seems to work well!

Sorry I can't seem the pics to not be upside down


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

Just installed the XTR 9120 cranks and AB 30T oval to my drivetrain. I was running an old worn XT 30T ring with a SRAM Eagle chain. Parking lot testing for shifting...much better shifting up & down. Quieter and move precise then the SRAM Eagle chain I was using. The SRAM Chain function but shifting was not quite as nice as is now.

Cheers,
Mike


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## DH930 (Dec 29, 2018)

Where did you get your 9120 cranks?


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/search?q=m9120

Looks to be out of stock right now though. I got several months back.

Cheers,
Mike


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Do you think its worth waiting for the 9120 brakes or is there something better without being too heavy

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jacksonlui said:


> Do you think its worth waiting for the 9120 brakes or is there something better without being too heavy
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Those are awful spendy for what they are.

I think I'll be putting some Hayes Dominions on my bike build instead. Still a top level brake. But over $100 cheaper at bike-discount for the pair. Probably a bigger gap once US sellers start offering the 9120's.


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## PhoS (May 12, 2009)

jacksonlui said:


> Do you think its worth waiting for the 9120 brakes or is there something better without being too heavy
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Why waiting? They're definitely avialable online right now. Shimano's brakes are exceptional and easy to live with. I can't imagine running anything else at this point. If you're worried about weight just go with some two pistons. Unless you're riding ultra steeps or long bike park laps those should be plenty of brake for most people. I've been happy with XTs for a long time but decided to splurge on the 9120s this time.


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## sergio8691 (Aug 6, 2010)

While I still entertain idea of using new XTR with 10-45 cassette for new Ibis Ripmo I have no doubts that brakes will be SRAM Codes. I had been using Shimano XTRs until my LBS recommended SRAM Guides couple years ago. I had not even known what modulation and consistency was before that... Seriously - SRAMS are that much better. Just check Pinkbike - they are citing Shimano brakes as negative when reviewing bikes - despite receiving death threats  
May be new Shimanos are better but I have my doubts.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

My XTR 9100s are the best brakes I have ever had on a mountain bike.......


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## PhoS (May 12, 2009)

sergio8691 said:


> While I still entertain idea of using new XTR with 10-45 cassette for new Ibis Ripmo I have no doubts that brakes will be SRAM Codes. I had been using Shimano XTRs until my LBS recommended SRAM Guides couple years ago. I had not even known what modulation and consistency was before that... Seriously - SRAMS are that much better. Just check Pinkbike - they are citing Shimano brakes as negative when reviewing bikes - despite receiving death threats
> May be new Shimanos are better but I have my doubts.


The consistency issue is overstated. I have a feeling those folks need to learn how to bleed brakes properly. I've had 3 sets of XTs and a set of Saints, none which have exhibited this characteristic. On the other hand every sram brake I've owned has outright mechanically failed completely, (elixirs, code, and guides) and this is why I switched over. The guides felt ok to me but the sharper bite and upfront power from the shimanos has never bothered me either.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

jacksonlui said:


> Do you think its worth waiting for the 9120 brakes or is there something better without being too heavy
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Check out the pumping 9120 thread! If you can stand how those work, get em!
I'll recommend something else though, like guides or dominions or maybe curas (guides been revised and not having any issue since, dominions have a great feedback so far and also curas does.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

PhoS said:


> Those folks need to learn how to bleed brakes properly.


Indeed! Tons of professional mechanics need to learn how to bleed property, including authorized Shimano service center mechanics! But what a sorcery, to be able to bleed all kind of brakes in first try except the most easy ones😋


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I've always liked Shimano brakes, having owned multiple sets of XT and XTR brakes, but the new SRAM brakes are also very good. I think it really comes down to personal preference as far as feel. After years of using Shimano brakes I got a new bike that had SRAM Level Ultimate brakes on it. I went back and forth between the XTR and Level brakes and couldn't really decide which I liked better. The SRAMs had better modulation, but I personally like the on/off feel of the Shimano brakes. Both had plenty of power. In the end I went with the XTR brakes because I like the lever shape and feel, and also because my other bike has XT brakes and I can use the same bleed kit and pads for both.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

I want to stick with mineral oil. Easier to work with and i still have a large jar of it

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

If you are ok of how those works go for them. I think extra power worth the extra weight but of course it depends on the use you need for.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> Finally got my XTR 9100/Sram XO Franken-drivetrain set up....can't ride it outside yet, but at least on the stand it seems to work well!
> 
> Sorry I can't seem the pics to not be upside down
> 
> ...


Mine will be set similar to yours, the X01 cassette does match the rear derailleur nice with the black xx1 chain. I just received the the i spec shifter and long cage SGS derailleur. Probably going with the new Shimano rotors also. Having a set a Dt Swiss 240 boost center hubs built to Derby 35mm external hoops and Sapim CX Ray spokes. All going on my Yeti SB100 bike that I freaking love!!


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

I find the desire to run a mixed drivetrain really mysterious. Others have noted Shimano chain on Shimano cassette shifts much better than any non-matched combo. If you're going to run SRAM cassette and chain why not use their der/shifter too? OR, since you're building it with DT hubs, get a microspline driver and make it all XTR? I don't see any significant money or weight savings from the mixed option, and can't imagine it'll work as well.

No shade intended, I'm genuinely confused as to the motivation behind a top-end mixed drivetrain solution.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

DrewBird said:


> I find the desire to run a mixed drivetrain really mysterious. Others have noted Shimano chain on Shimano cassette shifts much better than any non-matched combo. If you're going to run SRAM cassette and chain why not use their der/shifter too? OR, since you're building it with DT hubs, get a microspline driver and make it all XTR? I don't see any significant money or weight savings from the mixed option, and can't imagine it'll work as well.
> 
> No shade intended, I'm genuinely confused as to the motivation behind a top-end mixed drivetrain solution.


For me it comes down to $$. To fully move to XTR now, I need a new rear wheel. At the very least a rear hub and rebuild. A new wheel + cassette will cost me about $1000 to get what I have now in terms of hub/rim quality.

I personally do not like SRAM shifter and feel. So, if moving to this until Hope comes out with a driver means I get rid of SRAM then I'm good. Its a stop gap to get rid of something I don't like.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

For me I have used this set-up 11 speed for 2 years now and it shifts perfect..and I also like the Shimano shifter better than Sram. Also the Sram xo1 and xx1 eagle cassette lasts a good 2 seasons and is a work of art milled out of one chunk a tool steal with only the largest cog alloy. Not to crazy about the Shimano new 12 speed cassette with the largest 4 cogs using alloy... this going to wear quicky, and yea I know that part can be replaced separately. I would also need to buy the new spline free hub. I can always play with the option of trying the Shimano chain but better to say with the matching chain/cassette combo. I think some people get to caught up thinking you can't mix and Shimano/Sram and it's just not true. Myself and many friends just plain love this combo.. also the Shimano has a lower profile so not to stick as far as the Sram derailure. Sram eagle derailure can be a bit finicky.


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

DrewBird said:


> I find the desire to run a mixed drivetrain really mysterious. Others have noted Shimano chain on Shimano cassette shifts much better than any non-matched combo. If you're going to run SRAM cassette and chain why not use their der/shifter too? OR, since you're building it with DT hubs, get a microspline driver and make it all XTR? I don't see any significant money or weight savings from the mixed option, and can't imagine it'll work as well.
> 
> No shade intended, I'm genuinely confused as to the motivation behind a top-end mixed drivetrain solution.


For me it was cost and time.... Microspline freehub was going to be another $100 and a month's wait when I ordered my newest set of wheels, then the cassette was going to be an extra $75-100 over what I paid for the XO....

I also believe that the Sram Cassette's durability is proven....I've already been hearing stories about the SHimano XTR cassettes wearing out prematurely.

Also - I can easily put the XO cassette on my spare wheels (microspline driver isn't available for those, but I bought a used XD driver for $15...... then because I was using an XO cassette I figured I'd use a Sram chain!


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Ya done good!


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm currently running XX1 11-speed. I don't like SRAM triggers, so I'm using a twist shifter. I like Shimano triggers, and I'd like to get the extra range of 12-speed, so I think XTR 12-speed would work great for me.
My main set of wheels have I9 hubs, so I can get a micro-spine driver for them. However, my spare wheels cannot be converted to micro-spline, so I'd probably just get a SRAM Eagle cassette for them. Or maybe just sell those wheels and look for something else.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

I guess I'm just surprised y'all prefer the Shimano shifter feel (I guess?) enough to get an expensive XTR shifter/deraileur and then run it with SRAM cassette and chain. Seems like getting SRAM everything at that point would make more sense, and would avoid any possible differences in cog spacing or chain-deraileur compatibility. 

That said, if you're happy I'm happy for you!


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## tahic (Jul 21, 2008)

I got the Shimano groupo as I also prefer Shimano shifters but I have to say that these 12 sp ones feel a lot like a SRAM shifter .. very stiff and clicky I’m hoping they loosen up a bit with time 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gabby (Mar 12, 2019)

aja07 said:


> There is a further difference between the XTR 9120 cranks and the alternative MT900 crank being the Q-factor. The XTR 9120 is 168mm and the MT900 is 172.
> Compared to my previous XT's (2x10) which were 176 the 168 of the new XTR puts the crank a fair bit closer to the chain stays and I find my heels occasionally hitting the chain stays.
> With the XTR q-factor of 168 I find that my feet sit slightly outboard on my pedals ie the 168 feels narrow to me, and I have resorted to putting a washer on the pedals to widen the stance.
> This is just FYI as some ppl may prefer the wider q-factor of the alternative MT900 cranks. I think I would have.
> PS I am on flats, may not be an issue for ppl on clipless


Thanks for pointing this out. I thought the FC-MT900 was replacing the FC-M9100-1 which has a Q-Factor of 162 not 172. Correct theFC-M9120-1 has a Q-Factor of 168. Are you sure the FC-MT900 has a Q-Factor of 172?


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

Appears XTR 12-speed parts are becoming available here in the US.

https://www.jensonusa.com/search?q=...936336872900916089759352363664925866820687366


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## MagicShite (Oct 20, 2015)

anyone knows if it's possible to run the new XTR with 11-50 11 speed cassettes? Are the spacings the same?


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

MagicShite said:


> anyone knows if it's possible to run the new XTR with 11-50 11 speed cassettes? Are the spacings the same?


No, it's not the same.......


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

TwoTone said:


> So what, they could have taken their time to properly engineer it or rush it. We know which they chose.


(Cough)


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

cycloholic said:


> (Cough)


But... But... Shimano is perfect! No, trust me. I'm right.

STOP BEING MEAN TO SHIMANO :cryin:


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

HollyBoni said:


> But... But... Shimano is perfect! No, trust me. I'm right.
> 
> STOP BEING MEAN TO SHIMANO :cryin:


:aureola:


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

cycloholic said:


> (Cough)





HollyBoni said:


> But... But... Shimano is perfect! No, trust me. I'm right.
> 
> STOP BEING MEAN TO SHIMANO :cryin:


LOL thanks for proving my point. They found an issue and didn't release it. Sram would have just made everyone beta testers like they've done before.

No one said they were perfect.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

So they have delayed 3 years and:

1)Scylence hub production canceled.
2)Brakes are still having the inconsistency issue.
3)They can't catch the production needs.
4)They are producing another crankset cause they cant produce the new one that happened to be almost 100gr heavier than the older 3 yo xx1!(Make sense).
5)They canceled 11 speed production.

Sounds like a good job!


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## bkrupp1 (Feb 23, 2019)

Damn, poor guy! Sounds like Shimano has really let you down.



cycloholic said:


> So they have delayed 3 years and:
> 
> 1)Scylence hub production canceled.
> 2)Brakes are still having the inconsistency issue.
> ...


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Vote with your cash. That is how it works!


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

cycloholic said:


> So they have delayed 3 years and:
> 
> 1)Scylence hub production canceled.
> 2)Brakes are still having the inconsistency issue.
> ...


Man you spent a lot of time in threads of a company you think inferior to Sram. Good luck on your future beta testing.


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## rixsurfer (Jan 9, 2007)

I’ve been thinking about upgrading to 12 speed for a while and have always preferred Shimano over Sram so now that Shimano 12 speed is finally available, I start contemplating the upgrade. 

Then I find out I’ll need new rings or a new crank…neither of which are available. All that leads me here, where a see people have determined the problem is with the quick link and are figuring out work arounds to make the new XTR work with their old rings. But I just keep thinking…REALLY…that can’t be a good fix can it? In my head I’m thinking that something isn’t going to work anywhere near the way it should. 

I have a Cannondale SI crank and remember that Cannondale came out with a limited-edition Shimano 12 speed Scalpel, so I message them to see if they have a special chainring available. The response I get: 

“We do not have a 12 speed specific Cannondale spidering. Instead, on our Shimano XTR equipped bikes with Cannondale Cranks, we use a Shimano 12 speed XTR Chain BUT MUST USE a KMC 12 speed masterlink to work. “

I’m Dumbfounded. A 9K bike and they forced to use a non-shimano quicklink to make it all work…though I guess that pretty much confirms what most are saying. Use a different quicklink and all is good. 

I’m still just having a hard time getting my head around Shimano creating such a such a poor design that one small part would make their entire drivetrain incompatible with older chainrings. I’m sure they did this to try and get you to buy their cranks. But that’s such a complete douchebag move. It would be one thing if, in order to create an even smoother shifting system, they created a new chain design that ended up being incompatible….but designing one little part..a friggin quick link…. that creates incompatibility where everything else would work???. Seriously a DB move on Shimano’s part. I’m a Fanboy no more.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

rixsurfer said:


> I've been thinking about upgrading to 12 speed for a while and have always preferred Shimano over Sram so now that Shimano 12 speed is finally available, I start contemplating the upgrade.
> 
> Then I find out I'll need new rings or a new crank&#8230;neither of which are available. All that leads me here, where a see people have determined the problem is with the quick link and are figuring out work arounds to make the new XTR work with their old rings. But I just keep thinking&#8230;REALLY&#8230;that can't be a good fix can it? In my head I'm thinking that something isn't going to work anywhere near the way it should.
> 
> ...


Overblown angst. Yes, their quick link is different and requires a different chainring. Why'd they make their quick link different? I'm not privy to their engineering decisions, but I'm sure they had a reason for it.

Wolftooth sells a compatible chainring NOW (shimano DM and CINCH DM). Absolute Black sells one for the new Shimano DM cranks. Using a different quick link was really just an intermediate patch until compatible chainring options hit the market. Rumors are that RF has a compatible ring in development. I'm sure other companies that sell chainrings, too (including cannondale). AND, Shimano's own ring is available for its direct mount cranks, too.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

rixsurfer said:


> I'm still just having a hard time getting my head around Shimano creating such a such a poor design that one small part would make their entire drivetrain incompatible with older chainrings. I'm sure they did this to try and get you to buy their cranks. But that's such a complete douchebag move.


I think this may give Shimano more credit as Machiavellian schemers than they deserve. The 12s chain is narrower overall than 11s, but works on older rings because the insides of the outer plates are relieved. The inside of the QL is not relieved, just as none of Shimano's previous QLs have been. While that is arguably annoying, it's not like they designed a special QL to render their chain incompatible with older rings.

I'm running the 12s chain and link on a Wolf Tooth 12s ring on RF Cinch cranks and it works great. Maybe you should direct your ire at Cannondale for having a weird direct-mount standard that they don't support with updated rings?


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## MagicShite (Oct 20, 2015)

tom tom said:


> No, it's not the same.......


u mean even with the 11 speed switch on? So their 10-45 cassette is entirely different from standard 11 speed cassettes?


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

MagicShite said:


> u mean even with the 11 speed switch on? So their 10-45 cassette is entirely different from standard 11 speed cassettes?


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## drjos (Jan 25, 2004)

I agree. The faster release and multiple release clicks are quite stiff on mine. 1 Ride only so far though.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I've got my M9100 bits on the way, with a WT 30t chainring, so I shouldn't have to screw around with Eagle quick links.

Went with the 10-45 cassette and GS RD, because I wanted more clearance, and that range is good for my riding. I do wish a 28t chainring was available, though.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Harold said:


> I've got my M9100 bits on the way, with a WT 30t chainring, so I shouldn't have to screw around with Eagle quick links.
> 
> Went with the 10-45 cassette and GS RD, because I wanted more clearance, and that range is good for my riding. I do wish a 28t chainring was available, though.


I am missing something. It sounds like you might have been happier with an 11S cassette 11-50 wich is the same range but with an easier gearing for climbing, less $$ and less maybe that comes with new stuff.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

33red said:


> I am missing something. It sounds like you might have been happier with an 11S cassette 11-50 wich is the same range but with an easier gearing for climbing, less $$ and less maybe that comes with new stuff.


Who said I wasn't happy? You are reaching conclusions not supported by any comments I have made.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Harold said:


> I've got my M9100 bits on the way, with a WT 30t chainring, so I shouldn't have to screw around with Eagle quick links.
> 
> Went with the 10-45 cassette and GS RD, because I wanted more clearance, and that range is good for my riding. I do wish a 28t chainring was available, though.


Absolute Black has a 28t oval ring for the XTR black cranks.


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## brex17 (Jan 31, 2019)

Has anyone out there gotten their hands on the new style XTR quick link to see if it works better on the non-Shimano chain rings? It looks like it may.

This is what came with my 9100 chain:







I have seen this image from resellers recently:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

farfromovin said:


> Absolute Black has a 28t oval ring for the XTR black cranks.


Yeah, but not for RaceFace CINCH applications. I forgot to mention that part. I have Turbine CINCH cranks. Race Face doesn't have compatible rings out yet, so right now, Wolftooth is my best option.

30t isn't going to kill me. I was running one on my fatbike for awhile before I decided to downsize. I almost said screw it and threw that slightly worn ring onto this build. But what convinced me not to is the fact that this bike has a very different chainline than my fatbike, so I just bought a WT boost ring so I got the chainring offset right.



brex17 said:


> Has anyone out there gotten their hands on the new style XTR quick link to see if it works better on the non-Shimano chain rings? It looks like it may.
> 
> This is what came with my 9100 chain:
> View attachment 1243189
> ...


Interesting. I'll let you know which one winds up with my drivetrain. Though I won't be able to tell you how it works on regular NW chainrings.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

re chainline, i gotta say my AB ring at 51mm chainline still has a bit more angle in the big cog than i would like, so i think 49 would probably work fine. im on a 148 boost bike.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

FactoryMatt said:


> re chainline, i gotta say my AB ring at 51mm chainline still has a bit more angle in the big cog than i would like, so i think 49 would probably work fine. im on a 148 boost bike.


My bike is not "just" boost. The rear hub is also offset 3mm to the drive side. Chainstay clearance is the bigger concern with the chainring, rather than the chainline on the cassette.


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## Odd Kiwi (Aug 21, 2016)

*New XTR chain ring with 11sp chain ?*

Hi, Was quite excited to see the new interim XTR MT900 crankset (XT's in disguise? ) I like the two pinch bolts system instead of the taper spline most others use. 
The slightly wider q factor will fit my new 27.5+ bike frame better as well. 
So wondering how a 11sp chain will go on their new chain ring tooth profile, with it being a little bit narrower ? 
I'm currently running a full XT 11sp and no real plans to go 12sp at the moment but do have a new Ti plus frame heading my way soon and thought to go with a direct mount style crankset.

Any thoughts
Thanks


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## Shadow4eva (Jul 11, 2017)

Harold said:


> My bike is not "just" boost. The rear hub is also offset 3mm to the drive side. Chainstay clearance is the bigger concern with the chainring, rather than the chainline on the cassette.


Sounds like cannondale ai?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Similar. Guerrilla gravity. They don't have a fancy marketing word for it. Just 3mm offset.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Harold said:


> Similar. Guerrilla gravity. They don't have a fancy marketing word for it. Just 3mm offset.
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


You mean 6mm(3mm for each side) plus more 3mm?!!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

cycloholic said:


> You mean 6mm(3mm for each side) plus more 3mm?!!


Uh, not really.

Just a plain ol boost hub, and the rear triangle of the frame offsets 3mm to the drive side.

So if you're referring to the comparison to Si (which was first done with 142mm hubs many years ago), then the hub is indeed 6mm wider and shifted 3mm to the drive side.


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

I recieved two MT900 cranksets today, just to pilfer the chainrings for my M9120 cranks.....finally after a 3 month wait!!!! With a 34t ring the MT900's weighed 597g (complete), which is less than my old M9020's (609g). The M9120's weighed in at 562g. The MT900's would seem to be great value vs XTR, especially for their weight. I quite like having an all black chainring too, so I won't bother getting the XTR level chainring when it becomes available (Shimano says the MT900 ring is the same except for the colour). I whipped out a 20km ride this evening and find the shifting is noticeably smoother, especially under load when climbing.


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## The_Trail_Also_Rises (May 2, 2006)

It seems like with the MT900 cranksets that the finish quality is not at the level of XTR or even XT. Any insight into what the MT900 finish would look like after some rock strikes? Overall how is the shifting and what wheels are you using?



S-Works Boy said:


> I recieved two MT900 cranksets today, just to pilfer the chainrings for my M9120 cranks.....finally after a 3 month wait!!!! With a 34t ring the MT900's weighed 597g (complete), which is less than my old M9020's (609g). The M9120's weighed in at 562g. The MT900's would seem to be great value vs XTR, especially for their weight. I quite like having an all black chainring too, so I won't bother getting the XTR level chainring when it becomes available (Shimano says the MT900 ring is the same except for the colour). I whipped out a 20km ride this evening and find the shifting is noticeably smoother, especially under load when climbing.
> View attachment 1243413
> 
> View attachment 1243414


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

S-Works Boy said:


> I recieved two MT900 cranksets today, just to pilfer the chainrings for my M9120 cranks.....finally after a 3 month wait!!!! With a 34t ring the MT900's weighed 597g (complete), which is less than my old M9020's (609g). The M9120's weighed in at 562g. The MT900's would seem to be great value vs XTR, especially for their weight. I quite like having an all black chainring too, so I won't bother getting the XTR level chainring when it becomes available (Shimano says the MT900 ring is the same except for the colour). I whipped out a 20km ride this evening and find the shifting is noticeably smoother, especially under load when climbing.


These may be the bargain component of all time. I am disappointed that they are not producing the MT900 cranks in 165mm, I would order multiple sets today if so. I am ordering one set anyway, I'll use them on a future hardtail build. I expect these to become something of a collectors item, they will likely hold value very well if they ever lose any for a reason other than poor condition.


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## S-Works Boy (Jun 22, 2017)

king_dave72 said:


> It seems like with the MT900 cranksets that the finish quality is not at the level of XTR or even XT. Any insight into what the MT900 finish would look like after some rock strikes? Overall how is the shifting and what wheels are you using?


I'd say the finish is similar to my XT M8000 cranks. The shifting is smoother and the XTR cranks are noticeably stiff. I'm using Rovals - see the older posts on how to adapt the DT microspline to fit Rovals.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

The joys of waiting on a shipment from Germany (r2 Bike), which includes my drivetrain, brakes, and some other small parts. Shipped on the 20th. Last tracking update was the 21st, indicating it was traveling to the destination country. Hopefully it doesn't get tied up in customs for weeks.

Of course, I placed an order the same day from Worldwide Cyclery, and it got no tracking updates until late last night when it arrived at the local distribution center. USPS in SoCal seems to be a hot mess when it comes to sending tracking updates. This isn't the first time a shipment from that way has been handled this way (yet shipments originating in other parts of the country get much more complete tracking status updates).


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## Fuel53 (Nov 1, 2006)

Picked up my XTR SL-M9100 I-Spec EV shifter from the LBS over the weekend. There is no I-Spec adapter to fit it to my M8000 XT brakes. Did they forget to include it or something? The pictures I see online also shows it without the adapter.


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

Fuel53 said:


> Picked up my XTR SL-M9100 I-Spec EV shifter from the LBS over the weekend. There is no I-Spec adapter to fit it to my M8000 XT brakes. Did they forget to include it or something? The pictures I see online also shows it without the adapter.


No - there is no adapter, and I believe if you need one it would come with the brakes. According to Shimano, the iSpec EV shifter (M9100) won't work with M8000 brakes. In actuality it will, but with less room for adjustment. You just need the shimano iSpec ii mounting bracket!


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Twiggy said:


> No - there is no adapter, and I believe if you need one it would come with the brakes. According to Shimano, the iSpec EV shifter (M9100) won't work with M8000 brakes. In actuality it will, but with less room for adjustment. You just need the shimano iSpec ii mounting bracket!


Or you could use a SRAM Matchmaker bracket to mount the I-spec EV shifter.


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## PhoS (May 12, 2009)

Harold said:


> The joys of waiting on a shipment from Germany (r2 Bike), which includes my drivetrain, brakes, and some other small parts. Shipped on the 20th. Last tracking update was the 21st, indicating it was traveling to the destination country. Hopefully it doesn't get tied up in customs for weeks.


I ordered the full group set sans cranks from them , it took about 7 business days to get here(PNW) once shipped. Got the cranks from bike-components which was even faster. :thumbsup:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

PhoS said:


> I ordered the full group set sans cranks from them , it took about 7 business days to get here(PNW) once shipped. Got the cranks from bike-components which was even faster.


Good to know. This is only my 2nd time ordering from germany. First time was from bike24 yrs ago, and due to some weird requirements they had, it took almost a month to receive the hub tools I ordered. Avoided all of the german sites for that reason alone for quite awhile.

R2 was a little more expensive than some other sites, but they had ALL the parts I needed, so to keep everything in one box, I just ordered it all from them.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

tom tom said:


> Or you could use a SRAM Matchmaker bracket to mount the I-spec EV shifter.


Have you confirmed that the Sram Matchmaker works? I've used the Shimano iSpec ii Adapter from a M8000 Shifter, but was debating trying a Matchmaker/Problemsolvers/Wolftooth adapter instead. If you've tried the Sram one and it works maybe I'll try that?

Could it be that any of these Solutions designed to runa Sram shifter w/Shimano brakes can be used for iSpec EV shifters too?


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## PhoS (May 12, 2009)

Harold said:


> R2 was a little more expensive than some other sites, but they had ALL the parts I needed, so to keep everything in one box, I just ordered it all from them.


Really? I ordered the "upgrade kit" for the drivetrain stuff, it was cheaper after shipping and all than I was seeing on the other sites. (starbike, etc)


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

PhoS said:


> Really? I ordered the "upgrade kit" for the drivetrain stuff, it was cheaper after shipping and all than I was seeing on the other sites. (starbike, etc)


I also ordered the drivetrain kit, but it wasn't the only thing I bought. I also bought Hayes Dominion brakes, the associated rotors and hardware, and a couple odds & ends I needed.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Twiggy said:


> Have you confirmed that the Sram Matchmaker works? I've used the Shimano iSpec ii Adapter from a M8000 Shifter, but was debating trying a Matchmaker/Problemsolvers/Wolftooth adapter instead. If you've tried the Sram one and it works maybe I'll try that?
> 
> Could it be that any of these Solutions designed to runa Sram shifter w/Shimano brakes can be used for iSpec EV shifters too?


Pretty sure there was a pic in here somewhere, or maybe elsewhere, of someone who put the Ispec EV shifter on a SRAM matchmaker clamp (brakes) straight up as-is no fuss.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

PhoS said:


> I ordered the full group set sans cranks from them , it took about 7 business days to get here(PNW) once shipped. Got the cranks from bike-components which was even faster. :thumbsup:


Amusingly, I just checked the DHL tracking, and it appears as though my drivetrain (and other stuff) has cleared customs and has a USPS tracking number now with an anticipated Friday delivery. Looks like I'll be finishing this build over the weekend and hopefully getting it out for a spin.


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## Fuel53 (Nov 1, 2006)

tom tom said:


> Or you could use a SRAM Matchmaker bracket to mount the I-spec EV shifter.


I tried matchmaker hardware, tried the problem solvers and any mix of the two. It's a different shape entirely. The shop said it's an additional $15 for the M8000 shifter adapter which should fit as noted. No 9100 adapter exists according to my LBS. Did I really buy the highest end shifter that has no proper way to mount it? I'm surprised they included a mounting bolt with the rear derailleur based on that logic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

Twiggy said:


> No - there is no adapter, and I believe if you need one it would come with the brakes. According to Shimano, the iSpec EV shifter (M9100) won't work with M8000 brakes. In actuality it will, but with less room for adjustment. You just need the shimano iSpec ii mounting bracket!


You do need a mounting bracket, but the iSpec-II works great. This is the item:
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-M8000-I-Spec-Mounting-Bracket/dp/B01K5C79LK

Possible there's reduced adjustability, but there's all I need anyway. I initially wished I'd gotten the standard bar-clamp version of the shifter, but iSpec puts it in just the right place.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

it works..........


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Harold said:


> I also ordered the drivetrain kit, but it wasn't the only thing I bought. I also bought Hayes Dominion brakes, the associated rotors and hardware, and a couple odds & ends I needed.


Sounds like the setup!!


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## Fuel53 (Nov 1, 2006)

tom tom said:


> it works..........


Ah the clamps- those were sold with the garbage stock guide brakes the bike came with. I was looking at the matchmaker direct mount hardware









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

DrewBird said:


> You do need a mounting bracket, but the iSpec-II works great. This is the item:
> https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-M8000-I-Spec-Mounting-Bracket/dp/B01K5C79LK
> 
> Possible there's reduced adjustability, but there's all I need anyway. I initially wished I'd gotten the standard bar-clamp version of the shifter, but iSpec puts it in just the right place.


My problem seems to be getting one! Shimano Canada doesn't stock it, and if I try to order it from Amazon in the US it ends up costing $57 with shipping  .... I was hoping to find one second-hand, but no luck yet. It would be more attractive to order a new part from one of the aftermarket suppliers, but its hard to know if any of them fit since noone makes one for iSpecii to iSpec ii (since the shimano part does that normally)

Screw it - I just ordered one off Amazon in the US and had it shipped to my brother-in-law in Seattle to repackage and send to me 

The Problem began when I sold my old XT shifter, and I had to sell that bracket with the shifter, leaving me without one


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## spec47 (Jul 12, 2013)

Just set up a new bike with M9100 shifter (in 11 speed mode)/M8000 derailleur and I'm having trouble with getting the shifting dialed at both ends of the cassette. Using SRAM X1 and e13 9-46t TRS+ cassette. Mechanic says chain line looks good and shift cable is sliding smoothly. Anybody else running the new shifter and older derailleur successfully?

My other bike is running M9000 shifter/M8000 derailleur, SRAM X1 chain, and 9-46t (11-speed) e13 TRS cassette on my other bike with no issues.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

spec47 said:


> Just set up a new bike with M9100 shifter (in 11 speed mode)/M8000 derailleur and I'm having trouble with getting the shifting dialed at both ends of the cassette. Using SRAM X1 and e13 9-46t TRS+ cassette. Mechanic says chain line looks good and shift cable is sliding smoothly. Anybody else running the new shifter and older derailleur successfully?
> 
> My other bike is running M9000 shifter/M8000 derailleur, SRAM X1 chain, and 9-46t (11-speed) e13 TRS cassette on my other bike with no issues.


The 12 speed and 11 Speed spacing of the new XTR is the same and different from the previous 11 speed. I doubt they are going to play nice.


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## spec47 (Jul 12, 2013)

TwoTone said:


> The 12 speed and 11 Speed spacing of the new XTR is the same and different from the previous 11 speed. I doubt they are going to play nice.


Simple enough, thank you!


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

TwoTone said:


> The 12 speed and 11 Speed spacing of the new XTR is the same and different from the previous 11 speed. I doubt they are going to play nice.


You nailed it. Not compatible. Travel Safe


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

No personal experience, and I wouldn't spend my own money to build a group like this, but this combo seems to work pretty decently in this video:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

spec47 said:


> Just set up a new bike with M9100 shifter (in 11 speed mode)/M8000 derailleur and I'm having trouble with getting the shifting dialed at both ends of the cassette. Using SRAM X1 and e13 9-46t TRS+ cassette. Mechanic says chain line looks good and shift cable is sliding smoothly. Anybody else running the new shifter and older derailleur successfully?
> 
> My other bike is running M9000 shifter/M8000 derailleur, SRAM X1 chain, and 9-46t (11-speed) e13 TRS cassette on my other bike with no issues.


I have a bike with the 9000/8000 combo you're using on a Sunrace 11-46. Works great.

Not sure why you would intentionally use a 9100 shifter in 11spd mode with old stuff. Why not just use an 11spd shifter? The point of the 11spd mode on the 9100 shifter was to use the 10-45 11spd race cassette, which got shitcanned anyway. Hopefully it gets released later, but from the look of it, it was definitely different enough from the older 11spd standard that I imagine IF you could get it to work like the guy in the vid managed, it'd be a particularly finicky setup.

If you want to cobble together a drivetrain that uses more accessible cassette parts for a wheelset you can't get a microspline freehub body for, I think you're better off combining the 9100 shifter + RD with a 12spd cassette. Either Eagle, or e13, or Sunrace, and a compatible chain.

My 9100 drivetrain bits are out for delivery a day sooner than I expected. pretty stoked. But I had some issues with my wheel build, so my wheels and frame are at the instructor's shop to get the issues ironed out today. but it looks like I'll be able to build it all up tomorrow. can't wait to ride it this weekend.


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## spec47 (Jul 12, 2013)

Not what I wanted to hear, haha... thought I had a simple solution. Does anybody know what the difference in spacing is? Can't seem to find it yet.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

The pull is going to be for the 12 speed spacing for both switch positions. The reason for the switch on the shifter is because many of the sponsored racers told Shimano they didn't need the 12th cog and preferred less weight. So Shimano had plans to drop a cog which allow them to make the hub wider. If you're asking the physical pull measurement- no idea.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

spec47 said:


> Not what I wanted to hear, haha... thought I had a simple solution. Does anybody know what the difference in spacing is? Can't seem to find it yet.


I'll be able to measure the difference between the 9100 cassette and an 11spd sunrace with calipers later this afternoon.


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## spec47 (Jul 12, 2013)

That'd be great, thank you. Bit confusing with the video shifting pretty well. My shifting is good for the biggest 7 cogs or so.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Harold said:


> I'll be able to measure the difference between the 9100 cassette and an 11spd sunrace with calipers later this afternoon.


XTR M9100

Cog thickness 45t - 1.65mm
Cog centerline-centerline - 3.90mm

Sunrace csmx8

Cog thickness 46t - 2.05mm
Cog centerline-centerline - 4.35mm

Couldn't get my calipers into the gap between cogs, so I used the depth gauge to get a centerline-centerline measurement. Between the two, you should be able to see that m9100 and old 11spd is different.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## spec47 (Jul 12, 2013)

That'll do it, thanks again. Will order an M9000 shifter tomorrow


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

First real outdoor ride on my new XTR M9100/Sram XO Drivetrain last night as the snow has finally receded sufficiently here in Calgary and the ground is starting to dry up. First impressions are very positive! Shifts great....about a million times better than the XT 11-46 Cassette and 11-Spd XTR derailleur that I replaced! No weird noises that I could detect either.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Twiggy said:


> First real outdoor ride on my new XTR M9100/Sram XO Drivetrain last night as the snow has finally receded sufficiently here in Calgary and the ground is starting to dry up. First impressions are very positive! Shifts great....about a million times better than the XT 11-46 Cassette and 11-Spd XTR derailleur that I replaced! No weird noises that I could detect either.


Wich chain?
Wich link?
What about ((under load)) ?
Thanks


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

33red said:


> Wich chain?
> Wich link?
> What about ((under load)) ?
> Thanks


Sorry - Didn't want to Re-Spam everyone with my drivetrain description:

XTR M9100 Derailleur/Shifter
Sram XO1 Cassette and Chain, w/Sram Link

No problems regardless of whether under load or not. No weird noises.... worked like a charm!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

brex17 said:


> Has anyone out there gotten their hands on the new style XTR quick link to see if it works better on the non-Shimano chain rings? It looks like it may.
> 
> This is what came with my 9100 chain:
> View attachment 1243189


FWIW, mine came with this quick link, too.

Got mine installed today and spun around the yard to get things dialed in (my yard is NOT flat, that's for sure).


0330191909_Burst11 by Nate, on Flickr

I have the 10-45 cassette on a 30t WT chainring. I like it so far. Yes, the shifter is firmer than the M9000 shifter. But the derailleur is butter, and shifts surprisingly smoothly under power when climbing the steeps in my yard. Taking it out for some singletrack tomorrow.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

...


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

...


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Friends

Before i pull the triger for new crank i need your support.

1. I need 55-57 mm chainline and xtr has only 52- has any of You matched chainring giving some extra width?

2. Is the new chainring compatibile with older 11s chains (ex kmc) ?


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## Odd Kiwi (Aug 21, 2016)

I'm also interested in how a XT 11sp chain will go on their new 12sp chain ring tooth profile, with it being a little bit narrower how well does it retain the chain ? Thanks


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Why would anyone want to use one of these chainrings on an 11spd drivetrain?

Only want shimano's crank? Again, why?

I have a 54mm chainline using a RaceFace Turbine CINCH crank with the m9100 compatible wolftooth BOOST chainring (3mm offset) flipped backwards. If you used the standard version (6mm offset) flipped, you could get that 55-57mm chainline. You could also use the boost 143mm CINCH spindle.

Chainline flexibility is a big part of the reason I did NOT buy Shimano's crank for my bike.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Changed my frame and now superboost is on paper.
My drive mech i totally fine and i don't feel the need for 12x.
Unfortunately my current crank chainline is only 49mm hence no ring can provide me +6mm offset (96bcd).
I like Sh cranks and their mount (reliable) but current 9120 would be unable to give me 56mm


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Placek said:


> Changed my frame and now superboost is on paper.
> My drive mech i totally fine and i don't feel the need for 12x.
> Unfortunately my current crank chainline is only 49mm hence no ring can provide me +6mm offset (96bcd).
> I like Sh cranks and their mount (reliable) but current 9120 would be unable to give me 56mm


FWIW, the "black" cranks use the old style shimano mounting interface, but the true xtr 9120's move to something else.

Might as well just use a different crank if these can't give you the chainline you need.


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

You've probably seen this already, but WolfTooth has officially released a Shiftmount to use iSpec EV Shifters with iSpec II brakes!


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Twiggy said:


> You've probably seen this already, but WolfTooth has officially released a Shiftmount to use iSpec EV Shifters with iSpec II brakes!


I just noticed it myself, they have a really nice complete line of adapters these days. Various Shimano, SRAM and Magura options.

From their website:

ShiftMount naming convention is [shifter type - brake type]

MM-ISII is for a SRAM Matchmaker shifter mounting to a Shimano I-Spec II brake
MM-ISEV is for a SRAM Matchmaker shifter mounting to a Shimano I-Spec EV brake
ISEV-ISB is for a Shimano I-Spec EV shifter mounting to a Shimano I-Spec B brake
ISEV-ISII is for a Shimano I-Spec EV shifter mounting to a Shimano I-Spec II brake
MM-MAG is for a SRAM Matchmaker shifter mounting to a Magura brake


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## Seance765 (Feb 1, 2014)

Bit pricey but great.


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

Wanted to see if others are having any issues with the rear cassette lockring coming loose? I have caught it loosening on me twice now. First time it came loose, I reassembled and added a little marine grease to see if it would help. I also added the "missing" clear plastic shim to see if that would help it. Came loose again (just a little) after about 3 weeks of riding. It did not and we caught it today while getting my shock & fork serviced. Added a little bit of blue loctite to the lock ring to see if it will stay in place now. FWIW, a bit of clyde and running this drivetrain on my Tallboy3.

Cheers,
Mike


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Velodonata said:


> I just noticed it myself, they have a really nice complete line of adapters these days. Various Shimano, SRAM and Magura options.
> 
> From their website:
> 
> ...


Shimano now has 3 different match maker standards ? 
Do these things really help much ? I've always used standard individual handlebar clamps fro shifters and brakes and never had an issue positioning things. Are these mostly for a few grams of weight savings and a cleaner look or do people feel like they can't get stuff positioned right without them ?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Preston67 said:


> Shimano now has 3 different match maker standards ?
> Do these things really help much ? I've always used standard individual handlebar clamps fro shifters and brakes and never had an issue positioning things. Are these mostly for a few grams of weight savings and a cleaner look or do people feel like they can't get stuff positioned right without them ?


yeah, shimano has a bunch of different clamp integration systems. why they keep changing it, I dunno.

I combined shifter and brake clamps once (Shimano brake lever to SRAM shifter) and just never felt like I could adjust the controls exactly how I liked. Since then, I've been a separate clamp kind of person. I do think the clutter could be ridiculous if you're talking about controls for brakes, 2x drivetrain, dropper, and bar mounted suspension controls, but all I've got are brakes, 1x drivetrain, and dropper. So separate clamps isn't even a clutter issue. My particular issue is that I've got relatively long thumbs, so I need to position my shifter and dropper controls a bit farther inboard than an integrated clamp system would allow.


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## Stevebiker (Feb 17, 2004)

I don’t care for the range of the Eagle cassette that is coming on my new Stump Jumper so swapped it out for the XTR 10-45 cassette and freehub. Had to remove the flange for the Roval wheels as posted earlier on this thread. Works good with the Sram derailleur and grip shifter at the shop anyway. Still snow on the ground here so it will be a little bit before I put it through its paces. 
I can’t use a trigger so I did try the XTR derailleur with the grip shifter for grins and it was definitely a no go.


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## newportl (Apr 20, 2010)

Has anyone seen the new 11 speed microspline cassette anywhere for purchase?


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

newportl said:


> Has anyone seen the new 11 speed microspline cassette anywhere for purchase?


It's was here before that it's canceled.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Saw the new 12-speed XTR stuff today at the LBS. First time I’ve seen it in person. The new rotors are incredibly sweet and refined.

The cassette? Cheapest-looking thing I’ve ever seen. Looked like pressed pot metal. I’m sure it works fine, but for the money, it doesn’t have anywhere near the appearance of a Sram cassette.


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## Penny (Jul 9, 2006)

newportl said:


> Has anyone seen the new 11 speed microspline cassette anywhere for purchase?


Someone is selling one with the groupset on Pinkbike.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Penny said:


> Someone is selling one with the groupset on Pinkbike.


No they're aren't- that's a 12 speed cassette. Can't sell something Shimano isn't making.


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## Penny (Jul 9, 2006)

TwoTone said:


> No they're aren't- that's a 12 speed cassette. Can't sell something Shimano isn't making.


My bad. I thought 10-45 was automatically 11 speed.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Blatant said:


> Saw the new 12-speed XTR stuff today at the LBS. First time I've seen it in person. The new rotors are incredibly sweet and refined.
> 
> The cassette? Cheapest-looking thing I've ever seen. Looked like pressed pot metal. I'm sure it works fine, but for the money, it doesn't have anywhere near the appearance of a Sram cassette.


cassette functions especially well. not sure why the cassette needs to look like a work of art.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Harold said:


> cassette functions especially well. not sure why the cassette needs to look like a work of art.


it does but i get a weird overshifting sensation about every other shift into the 24T and only the 24T. almost like it's mis-spaced.

i am using an elliptical ring, i hope it's the cause. shimano tech looked at it, checked chain length, and tightenened B tension some. it does it just the same.

anyone else getting weird shifting in a single cog?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

FactoryMatt said:


> it does but i get a weird overshifting sensation about every other shift into the 24T and only the 24T. almost like it's mis-spaced.
> 
> i am using an elliptical ring, i hope it's the cause. shimano tech looked at it, checked chain length, and tightenened B tension some. it does it just the same.
> 
> anyone else getting weird shifting in a single cog?


which cassette?

I'm on the 10-45 cassette with a Wolftooth 30t round ring and my shifting has been bang-on perfect.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

10-51. yea it's very odd.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Harold said:


> cassette functions especially well. not sure why the cassette needs to look like a work of art.


I guess it doesn't. I was just struck at how janky and cheap it looked. That's all. Enjoy your cassette.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Blatant said:


> I guess it doesn't. I was just struck at how janky and cheap it looked. That's all. Enjoy your cassette.


Not even close to how I'd describe it.

It's a cassette. It doesn't need to look a certain way. It needs to work.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Anyone heard any news about Di2 12 speed? Any guesses if I'll be able to do a firmware upgrade and have selectable 11/12 speed shifting with my current 11sp setup?


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

BlownCivic said:


> Anyone heard any news about Di2 12 speed? Any guesses if I'll be able to do a firmware upgrade and have selectable 11/12 speed shifting with my current 11sp setup?


Could it work? 100% As long as you keep the overall range to the max of the derailleur.
Would it be easy for Shimano to do? Absolutely, they could program it in a single day.
Will they do it? Not a chance. Your going to have to buy all new parts and they might even change the way it communicates so even the wires won't work.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

alexbn921 said:


> Could it work? 100% As long as you keep the overall range to the max of the derailleur.
> Would it be easy for Shimano to do? Absolutely, they could program it in a single day.
> Will they do it? Not a chance. Your going to have to buy all new parts and they might even change the way it communicates so even the wires won't work.


We need a coding hotshoe to hack the software and do it for us freeware style. Just like people do for automotive engine management stuff!!


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## thefan (Aug 10, 2016)

I'm about to buy the MT900 crank to put on a bike with 11sp xtr/xt drivetrain.

Reasons are i need a new crank and this one looks good, as well as i'll probably go to the 12sp xtr eventually.

What chain should i be looking at? Any issues with Shimano 11sp xt, or 11sp xtr? Or should i spend the extra on the CN-M9100 just cos it's going to mesh better with the chainring?


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## JohnMcL7 (Jul 26, 2013)

BlownCivic said:


> Anyone heard any news about Di2 12 speed? Any guesses if I'll be able to do a firmware upgrade and have selectable 11/12 speed shifting with my current 11sp setup?


I've wondered the same but then was thinking the max tooth capacity of the Di2 derailleur is going to mean 12 speed wouldn't be as useful.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

thefan said:


> I'm about to buy the MT900 crank to put on a bike with 11sp xtr/xt drivetrain.
> 
> Reasons are i need a new crank and this one looks good, as well as i'll probably go to the 12sp xtr eventually.
> 
> What chain should i be looking at? Any issues with Shimano 11sp xt, or 11sp xtr? Or should i spend the extra on the CN-M9100 just cos it's going to mesh better with the chainring?


General rule is to match your chain to your cassette/rear derailleur.

I doubt that the new shimano chainring tooth profile is so different that it'll destroy the functionality of narrow-wide for lower speed drivetrains.


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## pk1 (Mar 25, 2010)

Harold said:


> General rule is to match your chain to your cassette/rear derailleur.
> 
> I doubt that the new shimano chainring tooth profile is so different that it'll destroy the functionality of narrow-wide for lower speed drivetrains.


on that note, what is the consensus based on experience with the new xtr9100 chain on other chainrings? with 9100 cranks still being in short supply i'm debating whether to hold out for them or go with another option.

the other side of this is how real is the hyperglide+ interaction between the 9100 chain and cassette?

i have 3 general options:
1. hold out for 9100 cranks to get the full drivetrain
2. use non-series chainrings with the 9100 chain and cassette - possible issues?
3. use non-series chainrings and chain, possibly losing the benefit of hyperglide+

i'm likely going to use an absolute black chainring actually but they have a 9100 compatible ring which needs the microspline cranks so the same principles apply


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

pk1 said:


> on that note, what is the consensus based on experience with the new xtr9100 chain on other chainrings? with 9100 cranks still being in short supply i'm debating whether to hold out for them or go with another option.
> 
> the other side of this is how real is the hyperglide+ interaction between the 9100 chain and cassette?
> 
> ...


HG+ shifting is real. I am pleased.

Microspline is the cassette interface only. It has nothing to do with the crank.

I am using the wolftooth 9100 compatible chainring on raceface turbine cinch cranks.

The xtr 9100 thread has lots of ppl discussing other combinations that work more or less well (or not at all).

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## a a r o n (May 22, 2009)

Just a word of caution on 12spd rings with 11spd chain/setup....

I thought I would do the same thing. I bought the non-series 12spd shimano crank but when I put it on the bench and compared it to an 11spd chainring, using the same 11spd chain it is pretty clear that chain retention on the mismatch will be horrible at best. 

The 11spd chain appears to settle in to the 12spd ring just fine, interface between teeth is okay, but I can wrap the chain around the ring and apply tension, and then pull it directly away from the ring at various points with almost no resistance. When testing the 11/11, this was not the case... at certain spots the chain is all but locked onto the chainring. 

TLDR: It'll work in the stand....I predict dropped chains if trying to use a 12spd ring with 11spd setup.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I have a couple of rides with XTR now. Although I have fought a few problems with finicky Eagle setups in the past, my X01drivetrain was running perfect. But after putting on the XTR, its just that much smoother and quieter. Just feels more luxury sports car if you will. Shifts are butter and the lever feels nicer and easier to me.
I haven't pushed the limits of downshifting under a real heavy load, and I could make my Eagle do it although it felt chunky, but both upshifts and downshifts under load (or not) are very buttery I would describe it as "click" vs "CLACK". 

With the 51t and other ratios I was also able to move from a 26t chainring to a 28t, giving me a little more top end while maintaining the first 3 gear ratios. 

I like many others I am running a wolftooth 11 spd ring with the XTR chain and an Eagle link without issues.

Only things I don't like are, if you are out of adjustment, in the past I could usually tell just from the sound if the chain was trying to go up or go down to the next cog. With all the ramps and such on the XTR, now I have to look down and watch carefully to determine which way I need to adjust the barrel.

Also, the XD driver and cassette combo is so nice, just screw it on and off. I forgot about the finicky process of aligning all the outer cogs and getting the fixing cap torqued down properly. And while several times over the years I've had these fixing caps get loose on the trail, I've never had an XD cassette get loose.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

when setting up from new on the shifter side of things what are people doing in terms of the barrel adjuster? 

the pdf manaul suggests optiumum shifting position of the barrel is 5 clicks back....but at no point does it state where the 5 clicks back come fromt and what you are to start with? one full rotation out from all the way in? 2 full rotations out?

i can get it to work smoothly enough but would like some clarity on initial setup from the barrel from other people who have installed it just to make sure im not missing something daft


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Didzy2009 said:


> when setting up from new on the shifter side of things what are people doing in terms of the barrel adjuster?
> 
> the pdf manaul suggests optiumum shifting position of the barrel is 5 clicks back....but at no point does it state where the 5 clicks back come fromt and what you are to start with? one full rotation out from all the way in? 2 full rotations out?
> 
> i can get it to work smoothly enough but would like some clarity on initial setup from the barrel from other people who have installed it just to make sure im not missing something daft


I didn't get that picky about mine.

To begin with, I start with the barrel adjuster dialed out a touch. Maybe 1/2 a turn or so. so I can reduce chain tension a little in case I pulled it too tight when I set the pinch bolt. But, in this case, I didn't pull too tight, so I had to increase cable tension to get optimum shifting.

Yesterday I had to redo it all. I guess when I did it the first time, I didn't clamp the cable pinch bolt tight enough, so my shift cable slipped in the pinch bolt at the derailleur. My shifting was off. I thought it was the usual housing settling, but I dialed the barrel adjuster all the way out and had no improvement. Threw it up in the workstand and saw my problem. So released the pinch bolt, and started over. This time ensuring the pinch bolt was plenty tight after I set it.


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## cogswell23 (Apr 24, 2006)

I'm sure this question has been answered somewhere in this thread, but I don't have the wherewithal to search back through 11 pages to find it. What's the consensus on M9100 compatibility with an Eagle cassette? Works great? Works so-so? Doesn't work?

Right now, I'm running XT M8000 11sp with a Wolftooth elliptical ring, and a TRS 9-46 11sp cassette which runs on an XD driver. So, I think my easiest path to an XTR switchover is to go with XTR shifter and derailleur, keep my current chainring, and run an Eagle cassette and chain. Anyone have any experience with this setup? Thoughts?

Thanks!


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

cogswell23 said:


> I'm sure this question has been answered somewhere in this thread, but I don't have the wherewithal to search back through 11 pages to find it. What's the consensus on M9100 compatibility with an Eagle cassette? Works great? Works so-so? Doesn't work?
> 
> Right now, I'm running XT M8000 11sp with a Wolftooth elliptical ring, and a TRS 9-46 11sp cassette which runs on an XD driver. So, I think my easiest path to an XTR switchover is to go with XTR shifter and derailleur, keep my current chainring, and run an Eagle cassette and chain. Anyone have any experience with this setup? Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks!


What is your feedback about your cassette?


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

What chainring to use for XTR 9100 if you need a 104mm 4-bolt chainring?
Absolute Black says theirs will work, but it needs a SRAM or KMC chain?


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## cogswell23 (Apr 24, 2006)

33red said:


> What is your feedback about your cassette?


It's ok, not great. I pretty much never use the 9 tooth cog, which renders my 11 speed drivetrain effectively a 10 speed. The 3 aluminum cogs are not durable. Fortunately, they are replaceable as a cluster rather than having to replace the entire unit. But for reals, they're like made of tinfoil. They bend easily and wear out quickly.

Having said that, I think I'm partial to the range and gearing jumps of the TRS to the 11-46 XT cassette. I'm generally Preferential to Shimano drivetrains, but I'm ready to upgrade what I've got, and am definitely thinking of switching to X01 as one of my options.

Option 1:
XTR shifter and derailleur with Eagle cassette and chain, making use of my current Wolftooth oval ring that ostensibly won't work with an XTR chain.

Option 2:
XTR shifter/derailleur/cassette/chain, which also requires me to swap out my XD driver on my I9 hub for a MicroSpline freehub body, and will mean having to buy a new Wolftooth XTR-compatible chainring, which aren't currently available in elliptical.

Option3:
Just say f**k it, it's been a good run Shimano. Switch to X01 Eagle shifter/cassette/derailleur/chain. No need to change freehub, no need to change chainring, no need to change freehub body, maybe the fewest number of compromises out of any of the other options.

Anyway, that cassette, it's fine but definitely involves compromises.


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## KVV (May 22, 2017)

Sorry if it was asked before. One thing I don't like about Eagle is how long the cage is and how low the derailleur hangs. Kinda scares me even on the 29+, and I can't imagine how people ride it with smaller wheels.

How low is the new XTR derailleur, long and med cages, compared to Eagle?


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## dhjunkie01 (Apr 30, 2019)

S-Works Boy said:


> I also got some CNC'ing done today and my Rovals are good to go!
> View attachment 1232829
> 
> View attachment 1232830


Hi S-works

whta was the MY of your Roval Wheels? 
As I have had exactly the same issue when tightening the rear hub on my roval Traverse SL Fattie 29. I got hte Microspline freehub with the flange and after seeing your post I have contaced DT Swiss and they have send me a ne Microspline freehub wihtout the flange







However the problem still persits. I am desperate now. Really cant figure it out what is cuasing the problem.
Everytime I put the original xD freehub which the Roval was equiped by default its working just fine.

EDIT:
- problem solved - the root cause was the spring holding the ratchet system - changed for a new one as the old did not properly align behind the ratchet.


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## MacLeod01 (Dec 29, 2012)

Anyone knows if and how it is possible to put the new XTR on a QR frame ?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MacLeod01 said:


> Anyone knows if and how it is possible to put the new XTR on a QR frame ?


With DT Swiss or I9 hubs (both mfr's will sell freehub bodies for older hubs). I think some other hub manufacturers have access to microspline now, too, but I'm not sure which and I'm not sure which axle specifications they support.


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

For anyone wondering about mounting the 9100 Shifter to an iSpecII brake lever, I highly suggest the Wolftooth adapter....I just got one and its the bees knees. Super clean and a ton of adjustability in the shifter....way more than with the iSpecII adapter I had botched together to work before!


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Recent to me and I think this means its fairly recent (last month or two) R2 Bikes is no longer shipping Shimano to the US. With ChainReaction done as of 12/31/1, Bike24 seems to be last big discounter left at about $550 shipped for a mini-drivetrain. With US retail pricing about $300 more, now may be the time to order


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Recent to me and I think this means its fairly recent (last month or two) R2 Bikes is no longer shipping Shimano to the US. With ChainReaction done as of 12/31/1, Bike24 seems to be last big discounter left at about $550 shipped for a mini-drivetrain. With US retail pricing about $300 more, now may be the time to order


Dang, I got in just in time, then.


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## MacLeod01 (Dec 29, 2012)

Harold said:


> With DT Swiss or I9 hubs (both mfr's will sell freehub bodies for older hubs). I think some other hub manufacturers have access to microspline now, too, but I'm not sure which and I'm not sure which axle specifications they support.


I do not think QR and 135x10 are old one. For mtb yes, but 99% of the touring frames are with that rear spacing on their 2019 models.
If the new microspline comes down to XT level, I think support of 135x10 and QR is a must.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MacLeod01 said:


> I do not think QR and 135x10 are old one. For mtb yes, but 99% of the touring frames are with that rear spacing on their 2019 models.
> If the new microspline comes down to XT level, I think support of 135x10 and QR is a must.


Shimano XTR hubs are available in very limited axle specs. Pretty much boost thru axle only.

There are some lower priced shimano hubs available with the microspline freehub body. They've been announced, but no idea if they're actually available yet. But the FH-MT500 hub is stated "Quick release hubs available in traditional spacing" at the following announcement page:
https://www.singletracks.com/blog/m...fordable-12-speed-hubs-4-piston-brakes-rotor/

Shimano has never been one to offer every hub spacing under the sun. Their offerings have always been more limited.

Hubs like I9 hubs and DT Swiss hubs use a swappable endcap system. The freehub bodies are backwards compatible to older hubs, at least to an extent. For Industry Nine, for example, microspline freehub bodies are available for Torch Mtn, Hydra, and 101 hubs. No Torch road. No Classic hubs. But Torch were available in pretty much all axle and spacing permutations. And Hydra and 101 hubs are currently available in pretty much any axle permutation. DT will be similar.

Hub manufacturers will support what they want to support. A touring bike is not a mtb. At this point, you're not going to find road hubs compatible with microspline. Only mtb. And only a limited number of mtb hubs at that. Maybe later availability will continue to widen but it's anybody's guess to when each mfr will start selling microspline freehub bodies and hubs compatible with them.


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## MacLeod01 (Dec 29, 2012)

Will I be able to convert DT Swiss 350 QR hub to shimano XTR 9100 compatible (microspline) hub with this kit:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/D...-Conversion-Kit-p67370/black-Shimano-o201531/

On the last picture can be seen that the kit has its own cap. So will my standard DT QR end caps be compatible with the freehub ?


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Harold said:


> Maybe later availability will continue to widen but it's anybody's guess to when each mfr will start selling microspline freehub bodies and hubs compatible with them.


Yeah, it would be much faster if Shimano would quit being A$$HATS and allow any hub manufacturer to license their design. It's not like companies can't figure out to make it, Shimano won't let them. Specifically I'm talking about Chris King but there's other high end hub manufacturers just waiting for Shimano.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

farfromovin said:


> Yeah, it would be much faster if Shimano would quit being A$$HATS and allow any hub manufacturer to license their design. It's not like companies can't figure out to make it, Shimano won't let them. Specifically I'm talking about Chris King but there's other high end hub manufacturers just waiting for Shimano.


Considering that Shimano was having manufacturing difficulties which severely limited availability of the M9100 parts, I'm really not surprised they've slowed the rollout. More microspline-compatible hubs would mean more demand and even more difficult availability of the drivetrain.

It will come. I'm sure there's more to the story about how permitted manufacturers were chosen, too.

Just keep your panties on.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

It s not like they are in a race to be first.


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## thefan (Aug 10, 2016)

Having just bought i MT900 crank i now really want to replace the chainring with an aftermarket chainring that's designed for the older style chains - does anyone know of any that exist?

You'd think that someone like Wolftooth that have a DM 9100 design, and also have many of the older narrow/wide designs they could very easily merge them together to make a DM narrow/wide chainring. This would make the MT900 a great option for reasonably priced crank for any 1x setup.


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

Wolftooth told me they would have a 9100 compatible 104mm 4 bolt ring out within the next 6 weeks.

I also ran into the free hub body issue with Roval wheels- So I tried it with my existing cassette.
9100 runs fine with E13 12 speed 9-46 cassette/SRAM Eagle chain and Wolftooth Narrow/Wide 10-11-12 speed ring.



thefan said:


> Having just bought i MT900 crank i now really want to replace the chainring with an aftermarket chainring that's designed for the older style chains - does anyone know of any that exist?
> 
> You'd think that someone like Wolftooth that have a DM 9100 design, and also have many of the older narrow/wide designs they could very easily merge them together to make a DM narrow/wide chainring. This would make the MT900 a great option for reasonably priced crank for any 1x setup.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

Most probably not, even for XD driver they have a specific QR cap they provide. This is most probably no different.



MacLeod01 said:


> Will I be able to convert DT Swiss 350 QR hub to shimano XTR 9100 compatible (microspline) hub with this kit:
> https://www.bike-components.de/en/D...-Conversion-Kit-p67370/black-Shimano-o201531/
> 
> On the last picture can be seen that the kit has its own cap. So will my standard DT QR end caps be compatible with the freehub ?


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

It's all in here, SGS vs Eagle dimensions, bike fit, etc







KVV said:


> Sorry if it was asked before. One thing I don't like about Eagle is how long the cage is and how low the derailleur hangs. Kinda scares me even on the 29+, and I can't imagine how people ride it with smaller wheels.
> 
> How low is the new XTR derailleur, long and med cages, compared to Eagle?


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

Works just fine with the Eagle cassette and SunRace 12 speed that I've tested so far







cogswell23 said:


> I'm sure this question has been answered somewhere in this thread, but I don't have the wherewithal to search back through 11 pages to find it. What's the consensus on M9100 compatibility with an Eagle cassette? Works great? Works so-so? Doesn't work?
> 
> Right now, I'm running XT M8000 11sp with a Wolftooth elliptical ring, and a TRS 9-46 11sp cassette which runs on an XD driver. So, I think my easiest path to an XTR switchover is to go with XTR shifter and derailleur, keep my current chainring, and run an Eagle cassette and chain. Anyone have any experience with this setup? Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Very seriously contemplating buying a 12s XTR RD to run with SRAM shifters and cassette.

If everything works as well as people say it does, that is. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Very seriously contemplating buying a 12s XTR RD to run with SRAM shifters and cassette.
> 
> If everything works as well as people say it does, that is.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you think that combo would offer the capacity to shift underload?? Thanks


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## SebastianSWE (Dec 25, 2018)

I really want to buy a new set of carbon wheels to match with the new XTR 1x12 upgrade kit. But it is really difficult and tricky/expensive to deal with the micro spline as it is so limited. No one on Aliexpress builds with micro spline, except for the DT Swiss 240 with a converter....


Then I saw, how do you feel about that Shimano uses the 3 large cogs in aluminium when SRAM only uses one cog in aluminium? To me it looks like Sram would be the more durable and long-lasting groupset....

I am full XT M8000 at the moment with a ZTTO 11-15 cassette and Garbaruk Oval 36T, I am not intending to change my alloy cranks and chainring as there is no point. But I cannot decide over Shimano or Sram for the rear


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> Very seriously contemplating buying a 12s XTR RD to run with SRAM shifters and cassette.
> 
> If everything works as well as people say it does, that is.


Using the Shimano 12 speed chain and cassette in combination is the key to getting the shifting performance out of the new XTR group that it is becoming known for.


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## Stevebiker (Feb 17, 2004)

I tried that with the sram 12 speed grip shifter and it doesn’t work. Very different ratio between the sram shifter and shimano RD. 
You can use either cassette as long as you match the shifter with the RD.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SebastianSWE said:


> No one on Aliexpress builds with micro spline,


thank god...


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## SebastianSWE (Dec 25, 2018)

Is there a difference between Shimanos XTR 9110/9111 hub and the DT Swiss 240S?

I know one is silent, but I do not want that  just curious if there is a difference except for aesthetics.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

SebastianSWE said:


> Is there a difference between Shimanos XTR 9110/9111 hub and the DT Swiss 240S?
> 
> I know one is silent, but I do not want that  just curious if there is a difference except for aesthetics.


Scylence hubs don't exist, first and foremost...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

SebastianSWE said:


> Is there a difference between Shimanos XTR 9110/9111 hub and the DT Swiss 240S?
> 
> I know one is silent, but I do not want that  just curious if there is a difference except for aesthetics.


And 2nd, DT Swiss 350, 240 and 180 hubs use their star-ratchet ring drive which is not a pawl-mechanism like most traditional hubs.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Jayem said:


> And 2nd, DT Swiss 350, 240 and 180 hubs use their star-ratchet ring drive which is not a pawl-mechanism like most traditional hubs.


The new Shimano hubs are more like DT Swiss than traditional hubs, I believe they ditched the Scylence feature but not the entire new ring drive mechanism.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

i've had issues with my MTB dt240 hubs where it seems like at least one the bearing seats on both hubs were cut too deep. this would overtension the bearings over time and cause drag and bearing wear. 

i remedied with some very fine shims, but dtswiss counselled against this. (their customer service IS a MILLION times better than Shimano)

cup and cone hubs have their own issues, but adjustability is a significant difference between the two.

the 54t ratchets also have been reliable, but feel a little draggy. 36t are better.


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

Sound of new XTR: https://videos.mtb-news.de/51406/2019_xtr_sylence_


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

"Scylence"
[sensible chuckle intensifies]



FactoryMatt said:


> cup and cone hubs have their own issues, but adjustability is a significant difference between the two.


Cup/Cone hubs just require regular - once per whatever - maintenance. Other then that - their big bearing balls are superior in the slow rotating application that bicycle hubs are. Cartridge bearings that have the same ball size are homongous.


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## SebastianSWE (Dec 25, 2018)

Okay, so I have ordered wheels with micro spline.

Time to shop for a new drivetrain. 
Is the new chain compatible with Garbaruk chainring? I believe I read an article saying otherwise and that it potentially could be solved by running a KMC quicklink to make it compatible. 


I would be open to also buy the new crankset, is it compatible out of the box with scalpel si carbon from 2017/2018 bottom bracket? 
And there are no after market chainrings for the new cranks?


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

absolute black makes chainring for new 9100 cranks. 

wolftooth may also as well by now and does for other cranks. 

the absolute black ring works great.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

My sb150 frame arrives today and excited to build it up with an xtr 12 speed drive train. I've been riding GX eagle the past 4 months, and though it works fine, I've never enjoyed the action or speed of shifting as much as my XT 11 speed. I'll post some pics in a few days.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

you're going to love it. no offense to sram guys, but it feels like an precision rifle bolt in comparison. 

on a FS bike with 25mm of chain growth and elliptical chain ring, i haven't even seen a need to engage the clutch.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

Sram has been smart in spending a lot of marketing dollars the past 15 years. Most younger or newer riders are more familiar with it. But for those of us that have a longer memory, Shimano has always been the go to for reliability, performance, and value (which seems impossible to have all 3). I have easily ridden over over 70k miles on Shimano stuff the past 20 years and my only memorable failure was a broken 9 speed chain in 1997.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

In case anyone wonders what's up with the bent and twisted XTR 12 speed mech, they've had this on the road Dura-Ace R9100 first


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

does any one have a issue with the shifting on xtr 12 speed

i find myself having to really push the shifter in harder and hold it there for the shift to complete, if i just lightly tap it, it tries to shift but then stutters on the way up the cassette (towards the bigger cogs), shifting down seems pretty instant, but its quiite heistant going up unless you really hold in the shifter lever harder than just a click....is this just how shimano is? with sram theres no option to push in harder, its just how it is...

everything is setup fine and its running smooth when the actual shift engages


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

Didzy2009 said:


> does any one have a issue with the shifting on xtr 12 speed
> 
> i find myself having to really push the shifter in harder and hold it there for the shift to complete, if i just lightly tap it, it tries to shift but then stutters on the way up the cassette (towards the bigger cogs), shifting down seems pretty instant, but its quiite heistant going up


 For sluggish upshifting, I'd first add a little tension to the cable (could have stretched) and check your b screw set up (not enough tension?).


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

foggnm said:


> For sluggish upshifting, I'd first add a little tension to the cable (could have stretched) and check your b screw set up (not enough tension?).


tension seems fine, and if I go any further out with the adjuster then it becomes slow down shift back down the cogs

it just feels like I have to hold the shifter in a bit further and longer, rather that just clicking it if you understand what I mean


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

I have toiled with derailuer adjustments since 1966. When electrics came out, it ended my frustrations over the years looking for a perfect shift every single time. Both SRAM and Shimano solved these issue and cable pull systems are now in my rear view mirror. I never even think about derailures anymore.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

I must admit im sorely tempted by the eagle axs tbh, I hate setting up mechs, can never get them spot on and with a few rides even from the shop doing it, it goes to crap thereafter, I guess this would take that element of frustration out of it


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Wayyy cheaper is simply running 20 S. On 2 bikes, i rarely adjust them and they are easy to adjust. Shimano and SRAM have great simple 20 S either choice is fine. Oh, and the range, i mean R a n g e !!! More affordable chain and cassette, please keep my secret for you, do no spread around. Your electrics, are they running at minus 35?


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

Didzy2009 said:


> it just feels like I have to hold the shifter in a bit further and longer, rather that just clicking it if you understand what I mean


I'm not sure if you're trying to improve your shifting or just asking someone to validate your experience of lever feel. I cannot help you with the latter. I am setting up my 12spd XTR on a new frame this week so may be able to answer then. But if your shifting isn't smooth, it sounds like some additional adjustment is needed. 
I have an eagle and xt11 drivetrains and I find the XT to shift much faster (subjective, I know). But the eagle stuff works great too. 
Make sure your upper limit screw isn't too tight. Also, consider disconnecting the cable and see if you notice any friction between the cable and housing. Lastly, check to make sure your chain isn't needing an extra link.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

foggnm said:


> I'm not sure if you're trying to improve your shifting or just asking someone to validate your experience of lever feel. I cannot help you with the latter. I am setting up my 12spd XTR on a new frame this week so may be able to answer then. But if your shifting isn't smooth, it sounds like some additional adjustment is needed.
> I have an eagle and xt11 drivetrains and I find the XT to shift much faster (subjective, I know). But the eagle stuff works great too.
> Make sure your upper limit screw isn't too tight. Also, consider disconnecting the cable and see if you notice any friction between the cable and housing. Lastly, check to make sure your chain isn't needing an extra link.


not so much advice on setup, just whether that's generally the way the shifter is, I guess if upshift 2 times at once, it struggles to do the 2nd shift without stuttering and clicking, yet if I do it with a really solid thumb shift and hold it in a bit further/longer it works perfectly, its almost like ive got too much leverage, or how it feels to me, like the shifter just keeps going rather than coming to a stop like a sram shifter


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Didzy2009 said:


> not so much advice on setup, just whether that's generally the way the shifter is, I guess if upshift 2 times at once, it struggles to do the 2nd shift without stuttering and clicking, yet if I do it with a really solid thumb shift and hold it in a bit further/longer it works perfectly, its almost like ive got too much leverage, or how it feels to me, like the shifter just keeps going rather than coming to a stop like a sram shifter


Shimano does feel different than SRAM in the shifting department.

That said, the behavior you describe sounds like a setup issue. Maybe a bent hanger is involved. I just know that my M9100 bangs out the shifts no problem. The shifter itself feels pretty firm (less so after 100mi than when brand new), but once it clicks, the shift happens, smooth and buttery. And setting it all up to behave that way was no more difficult than 11spd or 10spd.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Didzy2009 said:


> not so much advice on setup, just whether that's generally the way the shifter is, I guess if upshift 2 times at once, it struggles to do the 2nd shift without stuttering and clicking, yet if I do it with a really solid thumb shift and hold it in a bit further/longer it works perfectly, its almost like ive got too much leverage, or how it feels to me, like the shifter just keeps going rather than coming to a stop like a sram shifter


the second shift is shorter and a bit notchy. shouldn't have to 'hold' it tho. its quick.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

I should probably add... I'm running a gx eagle cassette and a kmc 12 speed chain so wonder if it would all work smoother if all xtr

Are you guys running full xtr?

It still works well but wonder if it's due to this I'm not getting full on smoothness throughout every shift


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

In my opinion magic is made in chain and cassette so it’s no wonder you don’t get the same feeling.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

TurboKoo said:


> In my opinion magic is made in chain and cassette so it's no wonder you don't get the same feeling.


Fair enough totally understandable really, but It does work well this way and it's a huge improvement over the piece of **** gx eagle mech it replaced

I'll look into the cassette and chain next then

What's the wear like on the cassette? Top 3being alloy worries me mildly tho as we have lots of climbing here so I'm often in those gears


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Didzy2009 said:


> I should probably add... I'm running a gx eagle cassette and a kmc 12 speed chain


Well that's an important little detail that should have come out sooner.

Yeah, I'm running the full M9100 drivetrain with 10-45 cassette. But with a RaceFace Turbine crank and Wolftooth M9100-compatible chainring.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Harold said:


> Well that's an important little detail that should have come out sooner.
> 
> Yeah, I'm running the full M9100 drivetrain with 10-45 cassette. But with a RaceFace Turbine crank and Wolftooth M9100-compatible chainring.


Tbh I didn't think the cassette would make too much difference guess its all designed to work buttery smooth together but didn't think it would affect the shift feel too much tbh... I'll go down the route of matching it all


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Other thing I was going to ask is has any one got a bit of side to side play with it fitted? If you pull on the lower cage near lower jockey wheel? I've got some side to side play looks like it's coming from the mech bolt? Is this normal?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Didzy2009 said:


> Tbh I didn't think the cassette would make too much difference guess its all designed to work buttery smooth together but didn't think it would affect the shift feel too much tbh... I'll go down the route of matching it all


It didn't always make that much of a difference because every brand's systems were so similar. But with M9100, Shimano made enough tweaks to the mechanics of shifting that they updated the name they use to describe it (Hyperglide +). So you're not going to see all the improvements in shift quality unless you use the Shimano chain and cassette. With the full system, I'd say that the actual shifting of the chain from one cog to another (not the shifter action) feels almost like an electronic system.



Didzy2009 said:


> Other thing I was going to ask is has any one got a bit of side to side play with it fitted? If you pull on the lower cage near lower jockey wheel? I've got some side to side play looks like it's coming from the mech bolt? Is this normal?


Nope. Mine's pretty solid.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Harold said:


> It didn't always make that much of a difference because every brand's systems were so similar. But with M9100, Shimano made enough tweaks to the mechanics of shifting that they updated the name they use to describe it (Hyperglide +). So you're not going to see all the improvements in shift quality unless you use the Shimano chain and cassette. With the full system, I'd say that the actual shifting of the chain from one cog to another (not the shifter action) feels almost like an electronic system.
> 
> Nope. Mine's pretty solid.


That's cool mines feels pretty solid with the wheel on and chain tensioned but without wheel in (cleaning bike at weekend) I noticed it felt quite sloppy side to side.. Definitely a bit of noticeable play...is yours solid without the wheel in still?

Cool about hyperglide + sounds like I'm missing out on it then especially if it feels super smooth only reason I didn't was due to the freehub and another expense and at the time I just wanted to ditch the gx eagle mech... This setup still works better than the gx mech setup... But doesn't sound like I'm getting all the benefits of it without thd chain and cassette


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## SebastianSWE (Dec 25, 2018)

I am running a Garbaruk 36T oval chainring and cannot use the Shimano XTR chain with hyperglide+, and the new cranks are not compatible with Scalpel Si either.

So what chain are you guys running, not everyone can be running Shimano, right?

I am considering SRAM XX1 black 126 link chain or this one from KMC, twice the price compared to SRAM, slightly better looking, but is it any better performance wise? https://r2-bike.com/KMC-Chain-12-speed-DLC12-126-Links-black-green

Also considering buying the new M9100 brakes, what can I expect compared to my current XT M8000 brakes? Running 180 rotors with metal pads atm, HUGE braking power, but they are very bitey. Very much on-off feeling.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

SebastianSWE said:


> considering buying the new M9100 brakes, what can I expect compared to my current XT M8000 brakes? Running 180 rotors with metal pads atm, HUGE braking power, but they are very bitey. Very much on-off feeling.


 I have saint and XT 8020 4 piston brakes and can't tell much difference. I also previously had the single piston XTs and can't say they ever let me down. I'm guessing the new single piston m9100 is better but worth it? I've never felt Shimano brakes are grabby and I live in the mountains so do lots of descending. Instead of trying new brakes, why not try some different pads (non Shimano) and see if they give you the feel you want.


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## SebastianSWE (Dec 25, 2018)

Thanks for quick answer and good input 

I know I would save 100-150 grams in weight, but worth 400 euro? I don't know... Thats if they would have better modulation or something.

Cause I read lots of people have problems with their brakes, both trail and XC version, same for the M9000. But mine have never struggled, and they can stop my bike in the blink of an eye, like bam, super fast.


I upgraded from resin to metallic pads in the rear, that with 180mm rotors instead of 160 gave me MUCH more breaking power. I would go with the same setup on the M9100.

My new carbon wheels are on the way and the new XTR drivetrain is also ordered. Considering upgrading the rest too, just not sure what I could expect 
I guess I am more materialistic than I should, that the specifications need to look better on paper more than how it feels on the trail.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

farfromovin said:


> Yeah, it would be much faster if Shimano would quit being A$$HATS and allow any hub manufacturer to license their design. It's not like companies can't figure out to make it, Shimano won't let them. Specifically I'm talking about Chris King but there's other high end hub manufacturers just waiting for Shimano.


Don't hold your breath while waiting for King to produce a MicroSpline driver. They're a notoriously slow moving company when it comes to market adaptation, engineering and maintaining a production schedule. I wish this weren't the case. They're across town from me and I used to sell a lot more of their product than I do now...their feet dragging has encouraged my customers to move on.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> Anyone heard any news about Di2 12 speed? Any guesses if I'll be able to do a firmware upgrade and have selectable 11/12 speed shifting with my current 11sp setup?


FYI, the current Di2 shifter doesn't play nice with the 9100 style brake clamp. Everyone has different priorities, mine are brakes over drivetrain. I've been running Di2 for the past few years and love it, but when I upgraded to the new 4-pot brakes, I bought a new drivetrain just-in-case there was interference...there is. I've only had the 9100 for a day and I'm already non-impressed with the interplay with the 51t cog...the slightest hint of a backpedal and the chain drops down three cogs only to have to climb back up. Di2 obviously won't change this, but I hope we've reached our max cog moment in history. The chainline is crap. I sincerely hope that it'll wear in a bit and this will stop.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

smudge said:


> FYI, the current Di2 shifter doesn't play nice with the 9100 style brake clamp. Everyone has different priorities, mine are brakes over drivetrain. I've been running Di2 for the past few years and love it, but when I upgraded to the new 4-pot brakes, I bought a new drivetrain just-in-case there was interference...there is. I've only had the 9100 for a day and I'm already non-impressed with the interplay with the 51t cog...the slightest hint of a backpedal and the chain drops down three cogs only to have to climb back up. Di2 obviously won't change this, but I hope we've reached our max cog moment in history. The chainline is crap. I sincerely hope that it'll wear in a bit and this will stop.


I started getting the chain drop on my 10-45 cassette, too. One reason I wish Shimano didn't shitcan the 11spd cassette. Anyway, I gave it the same treatment I did as my Sunrace 11-46 11spd cassette on my other bike. I slowly backpedaled and identified the teeth the chain would ride up on, then hit the back of them with a file so the chain would slide down into the correct position. Much more reliable now. With a bit more attention, I could probably make it perfect, but I just need it to be reliable enough that I can position my pedals when I need to.


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

If you haven't seen this, here's a recent list of manufacturers currently producing the Micro Spline freehub:

https://off.road.cc/content/buying/complete-guide-who-makes-micro-spline-wheels-hubs-m9100-xtr


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Update :

Now fitted all xtr parts and the shifting is night and day difference than using a Eagle cassette and chain

So so so smooth and crisp with the proper cassette and chain

So fi your gonna do xtr, do it properly and get it all matched running the same with the full groupo

Also note the quicklink does NOT work on a hope spider less Chainring either catches and pulls as it enters and leaves the chainring

So cured with a Eagle powerlink


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Yeah now that I've got some more time on this drivetrain and have jumped back on my X01 Eagle bike a few times, I have to say its really grown on me. Shifting the Eagle works good but it feels like swinging the cast iron control levers on steam locomotive compared to tapping the joystick on a late model BMW control console. Well maybe not that extreme but the XTR really is nice. I have only now been starting to realize how nice the downshifts are under load. I would downshift Eagle under some load as well, but I notice on the XTR how much less (if any) I need to relax the pedal pressure and how smooth it is.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

Do you remember the easy button commercials? I put my industry nine microspline on today, took about 15 minutes to remove the caps (using their tool for the drive side) and clean the pawls and springs off my HG freehub and moving them over. Just used a pic like their videos says for pushing down the springs and it was simple. Should be rolling on xtr12 in a few days, sb150 build in progress!


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

I also had someone machine down the ring that is too large (on the DT Microspline body). 
Now it works perfectly on my Roval Control SL wheel.



louit32 said:


> hi, I had the same problem with my roval hub. I finish to machine the flange.
> View attachment 1232717
> 
> 
> ...


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I just took a flap disc on a hand grinder to mine, but I"m pretty skilled with that tool. Point being you may not need to go to a machinist depending on what you have on had, its just a small nub of aluminum .


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

anyone know which crank boots fit over the 9100 cranks? the 9000 boots i had dont.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

FWIW, i'm pretty sure the MRP Wave chainrings work with XTR chains. pretty thin. 

the AbsoluteBlack NON-M9100 chainrings that are marked "12-speed" absolutely do NOT work with this chain.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

I got some SRAM Descendant ones (crank booties) to work just fine, but it ain’t perfect


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

have you tried just running a sram Powerlink with them? my hope spiderless chainring seems fine with full xtr kit, but the supplied shimano Powerlink did not work at all, I stuck a Powerlink on and now it all seems fine, admittedly only a spin around the block, but proper testing will commence later today, but I heard of no strange noises or catching etc


but clearly there is a issue with the shimano Powerlink and most if not all other non shimano chainrings


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

re absoluteblack chainrings the regular links won't even fit over it. maybe they sent me the wrong ring, idk. 

their m9100 ring is much much thinner though. works great with almost no drag.


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## brex17 (Jan 31, 2019)

My bike has an Absolute Black oval chainring on an XX1 Dub crankset. The cassette, derailleur, shifter and chain are all m9100. Works beautifully with an Eagle quick link.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I'd really like to upgrade my old 11-speed SRAM drivetrain to the new 12-speed XTR. My main set of wheels has I9 Torch hubs, so I can get a Micro Spline freehub body for them. My dilemma is that I have a second set of wheels that has the cheaper DT Swiss 370 style hubs, which can't be converted to Micro Spline. I could get a SRAM Eagle cassette for those wheels, but then I'd be using the SRAM cassette with the Shimano chain, which isn't ideal, and I don't know what other derailleur adjustments I might have to do when I swap wheels.

I guess another option would be to sell the extra set of wheels and get some others that are Micro Spline compatible, but that is getting really expensive. The XTR is already pretty expensive when you consider that you have to add the I9 Micro Spline conversion and a new compatible chainring.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Didzy2009 said:


> Update :
> 
> Now fitted all xtr parts and the shifting is night and day difference than using a Eagle cassette and chain
> 
> ...


Update, update :

Wow incredibly smooth and slick shifting, it is easily the best mechanical shifting ive ever had, and ive had lots, from xtr 8 speed, through to xtr 11 speed through to xx1/x01 eagle, it absolutely is the smoothest mechanical shifting going, instant release down shifts, and double downs, instant upshifts and very very smooth and quiet throughout the rear cassette

so just goes to show it really is best to run the same everything

previous setup : xtr m9100 rear mech, xtr m9100 shifter, eagle gx cassette, kmc x12 chain, hope evo cranks with direct mount chainring

current setup : xtr m9100 rear mech, xtr m9100 shifter, xtr m9100 10-51 cassette, xtr chain, hope evo cranks with direct mount chainring

although the xtr mech was a step up from the piece of **** gx eagle mech and worked ok with with eagle, it was far far far from perfect

banged on the xtr cassette, chain etc and the difference really is night and day, thanks to those who suggested it was down to the cassette and chain, i guess this is were the hyperglide+ comes into it, it really is incredibly smooth, precise and instant, happy shifting again at last


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

>and a new compatible chainring

There are many of us running a standard old 11 spd NW chainring. Only caveat is use an Eagle master link, not the Shimano master link. I never even tried the Shimano ML, so I can't say but that's the internet wisdom. But my wolftooth 11 spd ring is running perfect with the Shimano chain and eagle ML.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Preston67 said:


> There are many of us running a standard old 11 spd NW chainring. Only caveat is use an Eagle master link, not the Shimano master link. I never even tried the Shimano ML, so I can't say but that's the internet wisdom. But my wolftooth 11 spd ring is running perfect with the Shimano chain and eagle ML.


I wouldn't say that's the only caveat, the problem with the stupid Shimano quicklink is easily fixed with the Eagle link, but the extended inner plates shouldn't be ignored. I have run the Shimano 12sp chain on a Wolftooth 11sp ring, and while it did ride fine, it also leaves a ring of shiny spots where those extended inner plates are a very tight fit. Is it hurting anything? I can't say, it didn't seem to in the short time I ran that combination, time will tell. But it may be a bigger issue on a different manufacturers rings. I expect that the idiotic extra tight Shimano quicklink is only part of the reason that there are now several aftermarket ring profiles out there specifically for the new chains.

Did I mention just how big of a moron the guy at Shimano is that decided to provide a quicklink of significantly narrower internal width than the rest of the chain? He is a massive moron.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Japanese (& Germans too) love systems. system and matchy matchy.


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## MagicShite (Oct 20, 2015)

anyone knows if the wolftooth 96mm BCD 12 speed HG+ chainring is compatible with M8000 cranks?

I have a m8000 crankset with a power meter attached, would be kinda daft to let go of it entirely just for M9100.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

XT 12 ready to go!


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

Didzy2009 said:


> not so much advice on setup, just whether that's generally the way the shifter is, I guess if upshift 2 times at once, it struggles to do the 2nd shift without stuttering and clicking, yet if I do it with a really solid thumb shift and hold it in a bit further/longer it works perfectly, its almost like ive got too much leverage, or how it feels to me, like the shifter just keeps going rather than coming to a stop like a sram shifter


Now having my first ride on xtr 12, I'd say something may not be right with your set up. I find the shifting is much crisper and quicker (compared to my gx eagle) and has no sluggishness in the 45,51 cogs. The levers have a little heavier feel but the action is warp speed. Have you had any success improving it?


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## aja07 (Jul 16, 2018)

I have some lag shifting from 10 to 12, have to press the lever just a tad extra to make it shift. All other shifting is crisp and clean.


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## Tarekith (Mar 9, 2005)

Just upgraded to a new I9 wheel set and decided to give the new XTR 12 speed a try since I had the option of microspline for the free hub. I was previously running a SRAM GX 11 speed set up, which worked fine but wasn’t as precise feeling as the XTR set up I had had previously. 

Installation was a bit more involved with the 12 speed setup, getting it all dialed in was a bit more of a chore than the 11 speed XTR derailleur. Having found this thread after the fact, I now realize it’s because I was using a regular (albeit brand new) RF NW chainring and not one of the newer hyperglide compatible chainrings. While I could get it to work and shift pretty smoothly, it definitely was noticeable that the new quicklink was grabbing more than it should. Ordered the wolftooth 12 speed compatible ring last night though, sounds like that should sort it.

Still impressive how much more precise it feels compared to my past SRAM set up, though I’d agree that the shifter feel is a bit more firm than previous XTR shifter. I’m guessing that will loosen up with a bit of wear though.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

aja07 said:


> I have some lag shifting from 10 to 12, have to press the lever just a tad extra to make it shift. All other shifting is crisp and clean.


Have you tried tweaking your lower limit screw? Is you b-screw tension correct?


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## aja07 (Jul 16, 2018)

foggnm said:


> Have you tried tweaking your lower limit screw? Is you b-screw tension correct?


Yup tried all that, it does seem that the gap between 10 and 12 seems fractionally larger. I really need to to remove and re-install the cassette but have not bothered as I seldom use the 10.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

aja07 said:


> I seldom use the 10.


 I've never quite understood much need for it either. I didn't even use my 11t much with a 30 chainring. Now I have a 32 chainring and only time the 10t gets used is on pavement or the occasional patch of very open non-technical trail.


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## aja07 (Jul 16, 2018)

foggnm said:


> Now I have a 32 chainring and only time the 10t gets used is on pavement or the occasional patch of very open non-technical trail.


Ditto


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

Perhaps Shimano will eventually have an SLX or XT 11-51 that runs on the HG driver. That's probably what many people are waiting for.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

hopefully. SRAM will be on lossless CVT drive by then or something tho.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Jan said:


> Sound of new XTR: https://videos.mtb-news.de/51406/2019_xtr_sylence_


Far from Scylent. just ordered teh non-XTR XTR hubs. Price won out this time over I9/DT.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Far from Scylent. just ordered teh non-XTR XTR hubs. Price won out this time over I9/DT.


Scylence got shitcanned months ago due to production problems. It does not actually exist yet.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## beer_coffee_water (Mar 1, 2011)

foggnm said:


> Perhaps Shimano will eventually have an SLX or XT 11-51 that runs on the HG driver. That's probably what many people are waiting for.


Well, that was a nice thought with today's announcement.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

beer_coffee_water said:


> Well, that was a nice thought with today's announcement.


Yep. I guess we all 'need' a 10t cog and thus microspline. But I'm pumped, I'll be putting XT 12 on my second bike when it is available. XTR has been an A+ experience so far.

But you gotta love Shimano giving us the HG driver which kept compatibility for over 20 years. Farewell HG.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Does anyone know if there is i-spec top cover replacement for the 9100 shifter? I bought the bar mount shifter, but may end up getting the new XT 4 POT brakes and would like the mount the shifter to the brake. Not a big deal, but I like the cleaned up bar.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Does anyone know if there is i-spec top cover replacement for the 9100 shifter? I bought the bar mount shifter, but may end up getting the new XT 4 POT brakes and would like the mount the shifter to the brake. Not a big deal, but I like the cleaned up bar.


it's probably out there, but I doubt anyone other than shimano stocks it yet.

me, I tried integrated clamps years ago. I didn't like the limited adjustment, so I am back to separate clamps. I have long thumbs, so I need to move my shifter WAY inboard. With wide bars, clamp space simply isn't an issue anymore.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Harold said:


> it's probably out there, but I doubt anyone other than shimano stocks it yet.
> 
> me, I tried integrated clamps years ago. I didn't like the limited adjustment, so I am back to separate clamps. I have long thumbs, so I need to move my shifter WAY inboard. With wide bars, clamp space simply isn't an issue anymore.


Esually if bike24 or R2 doesn't have it, it's not out there yet. Not seeing it. Supppedly the new i-spec has much better adjustment range. Purely vanity as it is...so I can wait.

Side note....must be in the 12 pages of this thread....any tips/tricks to setting up XTR 1x12? GX Eagle was finicky for me. B-Screw issues? Cable tension? Thanks!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Esually if bike24 or R2 doesn't have it, it's not out there yet. Not seeing it. Supppedly the new i-spec has much better adjustment range. Purely vanity as it is...so I can wait.
> 
> Side note....must be in the 12 pages of this thread....any tips/tricks to setting up XTR 1x12? GX Eagle was finicky for me. B-Screw issues? Cable tension? Thanks!


I needed the plastic shim thing for behind the cassette and couldn't find it at ANY of the standard online retailers. Only one weird place I'd never heard of in germany had it, but not r2 or bike24. My lbs ordered it from shimano no problem.

I honestly found the setup to be pretty easy. I dunno if that's because I've set up enough drivetrains that I'm not easily flustered anymore, or what. I just followed standard procedures and everything dialed in easy peasy. I've messed with the b-screw adjustment and it seems pretty forgiving. micro-adjusting it doesn't appear to make much difference. cable tension is no more finicky than the 11spd stuff, imo.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Harold said:


> it's probably out there, but I doubt anyone other than shimano stocks it yet.
> 
> me, I tried integrated clamps years ago. I didn't like the limited adjustment, so I am back to separate clamps. I have long thumbs, so I need to move my shifter WAY inboard. With wide bars, clamp space simply isn't an issue anymore.


Yes check ebay. Wolftopth makes adapters as well tonolder ispec


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Does anyone know if there is i-spec top cover replacement for the 9100 shifter? I bought the bar mount shifter, but may end up getting the new XT 4 POT brakes and would like the mount the shifter to the brake. Not a big deal, but I like the cleaned up bar.


I don't think so, as I had the opposite problem. I ended up just buying another shifter and keeping the ispec one for my second bike conversion when the XT stuff is available. It already has the new XTR rear brake lever. A local shop would be a good resource or Jenson as they deal a lot of small parts...WWC too.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

OOPS i forgot i have an extra one new. - PM me if you need one.

i-spec cover

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-XT...m4d8a42a903:g:ebsAAOSwqztcSV0R&frcectupt=true


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## Tarekith (Mar 9, 2005)

Got the wolftooth chainring today, what a difference over the RFNW I was using. Much much quieter too. This is the drivetrain I was thinking of when I bought XTR, shame they dorked the quick link. 

Looking at mine today it almost looks like they sent two of the directional plates, there’s an arrow on both of mine which means one will always be pointing the wrong way for a directional chain.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Tarekith said:


> Looking at mine today it almost looks like they sent two of the directional plates, there's an arrow on both of mine which means one will always be pointing the wrong way for a directional chain.


That's just how they are. Eagle is the same.


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

Wolftooth just added 9100 specific rings in 104mm 4 bolt pattern if anyone was waiting for that-


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Well thank goodness the 11 speed rings work because none of these variants (direct mount, Camo, 96mm) are available with 28t. 

God how I hate this chainring incompatibilty mess. Remember when all chainrings were one mount system ? Now we have 3 DM systems at least, (2) 4 bolt systems each with 2 different bolt sizes not to mention the other dead end chainring bolt patterns Shimano previously introduced.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

cinch chainrings can be had in 28t. really wish everyone would just go to CINCH DM pattern. FK sram and their three bolt. FK Rotor. Fk e13. Fk Cannondale. and especially a big FK YOU to Shimano.

CINCH in 28t:
race face
absolute black (cinch m9100 out in 1 month)
mrp (works with 12 speed XTR)

https://mrpbike.com/pages/chainrings


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I could definitely get behind one standard although I prefer the SRAM standard because you can fix it in the field with a multi-tool. The cinch and other methods require a bulky proprietary tool to tighten or remove the chainring. Thanks for pointing out that 28t availabliity though. Currently I'm using 64bcd Wolftooth 11 spd chainrings, just using the Eagle master link on the 12 spd chain. Works great no problems but I"m dependent on sole supplier Wolftooth (actually I haven't checked in OneUp has something simliar). I see 28t rings are also available on the CAMO spider, although not in full XTR12 compatiblity.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

wolftooth 11spd rings are probably the thickest on the market. i DNFd district champs on one in the mud and will never touch one of their rings again. the rest of their stuff is cool tho.

you could get away with MRP wave ring (same as praxis) & std shimano masterlink. 

proprietary tool is just a shimano BSA BB tool.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

With all those chainrings.....just imagine the average mechanic at a multi-line shop.(never mind the below average mechanic)


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

the mayor said:


> With all those chainrings.....just imagine the average mechanic at a multi-line shop.(never mind the below average mechanic)


beating a dead horse i know, but the exponential proliferation of bike standards is absolutely out of control.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

FactoryMatt said:


> beating a dead horse i know, but the exponential proliferation of bike standards is absolutely out of control.


I've been riding for 30 years.
I would say the last 15 years....with the endless new standards....have been brutal.
Lot's of great products.....but JFC.
My favorite marketing quote was SRAM's press release for DUB b/b's : "We felt there were too many standards. So we made our own"
(I couldn't even type that without laughing )

I own a lot of bikes....it's a head ache to keep spares on hand of vital stuff. Never mind what a shop has to stock...or be able to figure out.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

That is why i never had a new tech seat post. It would only fit one of my bikes and might not fit my next bike. At 61 YO i was not raised with the obsolescence mentality. My parents lasted 65 years together, till death. I still have 2 20 speeds, changing is just crazy IMHO.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

FYI for the folks who have had issues with the Shimano quick link not working on after market chainrings....

A KMC 12 quicklink works ( as well as the SRAM unit)


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## some dude (Jan 1, 2014)

bootsie_cat said:


> Wolftooth just added 9100 specific rings in 104mm 4 bolt pattern if anyone was waiting for that-


 Oh damn! I've been after Absolute Black to offer a XTR12 specific ring in a 104bcd and even offered to pay the CNC setup fee and a bulk order,.....still waiting on their reply. Guess I'll try the Wolf Tooth and see if I like their oval profile same or better as AB.

EDIT,...well they aren't offering an oval just yet, but they are ahead of the other ring manufactures


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

I'm waiting for the 96 bcd compatible ones that will work with XT8000 cranks.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

some dude said:


> Oh damn! I've been after Absolute Black to offer a XTR12 specific ring in a 104bcd and even offered to pay the CNC setup fee and a bulk order,.....still waiting on their reply. Guess I'll try the Wolf Tooth and see if I like their oval profile same or better as AB.
> 
> EDIT,...well they aren't offering an oval just yet, but they are ahead of the other ring manufactures


I use a Ab Black oval with XTR12 chain. You have to use a SRAM or KMC quicklink....and it works fine.
If you're hung up on using the Shimano link....you have a while to wait.


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## KWyer (Jul 14, 2006)

Do you have a DT Swiss part number for the correct freehub that natively fits the older Roval hubs?


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## MarkusBrand (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm currently running eagle but would love to use the new Shimano 12 Speed crank. From what I read on this thread is that the main compatibility issues are between chain and cassette? Is it safe to assume the eagle chain will work fine with FC-M9100 crank running CRM95 chainrings?


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## dhjunkie01 (Apr 30, 2019)

KWyer said:


> Do you have a DT Swiss part number for the correct freehub that natively fits the older Roval hubs?


Will need to take al ook whether it is in the invoice. But I guess when you approach DT Swiss directly, explaining what you need they will be very well aware


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

so learned a fun fact today...trying to get a new fixing bolt because mine's looking a little boogered. I go to check the tech docs...no part number...i call shimano consumer..

"yea that's part of the crank it's not supposed to come out".

so, apparently, unlike every shimano crank ever made, shimano expects you to buy an entire crankset if you strip your fixing bolt.

lately, they're making it realllllly hard to be a customer.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

FactoryMatt said:


> lately, they're making it realllllly hard to be a customer.


Bummer. I'm guessing a hex wrench with good edges and/or using a torque wrench would have prevented that. The fact that it is stripped on components that are less than a year old makes me wonder why someone is messing with the crank bolt that often. Should be a fairly rare occasion to remove the cranks. I think Shimano makes it easy to be a customer. The new 12 speed stuff is just so good, so fast, so smooth, so affordable... I'm quite happy to put my business in their pocket.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

FactoryMatt said:


> so learned a fun fact today...trying to get a new fixing bolt because mine's looking a little boogered. I go to check the tech docs...no part number...i call shimano consumer..
> 
> "yea that's part of the crank it's not supposed to come out".
> 
> ...


I remember when we were customers but you missed the memo.
Now it is bank accounts. They just want access to drip it out slowly, constantly.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

I'll buy your group if you don't like it. PM me.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

33red said:


> I remember when we were customers but you missed the memo.
> Now it is bank accounts. They just want access to drip it out slowly, constantly.


that business practice is everywhere. Try buying Chevy parts after 10 years of ownership. So many parts on my C5 Corvette that are just no longer available. In fact, almost all cars made today have computers that once failed, you may not be able to buy a replacement. So yep, not selling a part by marrying it another expensive piece is now common. But I still super enjoy the engineering and manufacturing of Shimano and SRAM. They work so well, especially in Di2 and eTap. A bit off topic, sorry.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Tesla is the worst right now lol. 6+ months to get a bumper. i've seen teslas here in the bay area running around with no rear bumper lol.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

foggnm said:


> I'll buy your group if you don't like it. PM me.


i do like it. mostly. other than the bulky shifter and weird 16T upshift.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

foggnm said:


> Bummer. I'm guessing a hex wrench with good edges and/or using a torque wrench would have prevented that. The fact that it is stripped on components that are less than a year old makes me wonder why someone is messing with the crank bolt that often. Should be a fairly rare occasion to remove the cranks. I think Shimano makes it easy to be a customer. The new 12 speed stuff is just so good, so fast, so smooth, so affordable... I'm quite happy to put my business in their pocket.


Oh it's completely my fault for sure, but that's beside the point. I have both a good torque wrench and a sharp 8mm; the problem is, i got impatient and just wanted to temporarily snug it up with the T50 i had sitting out. A little time with a hand file and the Allen is pretty tight, but man i hate supporting companies that don't provide replacement parts...Worried about the bladder in my Lyrik for example


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

FactoryMatt said:


> Tesla is the worst right now lol. 6+ months to get a bumper. i've seen teslas here in the bay area running around with no rear bumper lol.


Totally unacceptable but they are super cool cars. If they go bust, it will be a challenge to get any older parts.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Those so called capitalists should never see daylight. 
They are the real terrosists.
They should be jailed until we extract each organ.
Will U vote for me?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

FactoryMatt said:


> the problem is, i got impatient and just wanted to temporarily snug it up with the T50 i had sitting out.


I won't claim to have never rounded anything, but I've never stuck a torx in a hex or a hex in a torx. I know some people have claimed it works at times, but it seems like a recipe for stripping. Unless it's some crazy-lightly loaded bolt that you can essentially hand-turn, I just never see the rewards worth the risks.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Yep. Never again. Its one of those things where you know better but do it anyway.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

FactoryMatt said:


> Yep. Never again. Its one of those things where you know better but do it anyway.


It was dark in the garage, i did not put on my reading glasses so i rounded the nut on top of my stem using the wrong key. We are humans, stuff happens... sometimes pro mecanics make mistakes, i call that life


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Jayem said:


> but I've never stuck a torx in a hex or a hex in a torx.


Well you're no fun at orgies !


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## Flushing Shadow (Apr 11, 2019)

Jayem said:


> I won't claim to have never rounded anything, but I've never stuck a torx in a hex or a hex in a torx. I know some people have claimed it works at times, but it seems like a recipe for stripping. Unless it's some crazy-lightly loaded bolt that you can essentially hand-turn, I just never see the rewards worth the risks.


On most cycles it's not necessary , but how many times i freed up a seized and rounded hex bolt with a torx on cars and trucks, if i got a dime for every time


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## Verbl Kint (Feb 14, 2013)

Currently using this drivetrain:

• e*thirteen TRS+ 9-46 cogs (older version, with 3 aluminum plates)
• XTR m9100 medium cage RD
• XTR m9100 shifter (set to 12 speed)
• XTR m9020 cranks (165mm with 32t chainring)
• KMC X11EL chain

Just did a short XC ride yesterday + 3 DH runs, totalling about 16 km (10 miles) in all.

Shifting works great but I did get hung up shifting to the 33t and 39t cog a couple of times. I find this weird since going to the 46t has been smooth. Any ideas to make shifting smoother?

On my DH runs, I purposely didn't engage the clutch just to see if the chain would drop. It didn't. I couldn't say the same for the SRAM drivetrain it replaced. I'm very impressed.

Sent using Tapatalk


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## murrdogg11 (Apr 4, 2010)

thinking about getting the new Shimano 12 speed....hows the backpedal issue? i was dropping chains down so much on my 11 speed Shimano cassette I had to switch to sram!


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

no probs.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

murrdogg11 said:


> thinking about getting the new Shimano 12 speed....hows the backpedal issue? i was dropping chains down so much on my 11 speed Shimano cassette I had to switch to sram!


It's a pretty uncommon thing for me, but it does happen from time to time.

When I first set it up, I had no problems whatsoever.

not sure what changed that caused it to start happening, but it did.

I was hoping for the 11spd 10-45 cassette to improve the chainline in the biggest cog, but unfortunately that cassette didn't make it to market.

I suspect that if you've had issues with backpedal chain drop on other drivetrains, you'll probably have it with this one, too. I am using it on a frame that I've never installed any other drivetrain on, so I can't really do direct comparisons with any of the other drivetrains I have.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

murrdogg11 said:


> thinking about getting the new Shimano 12 speed....hows the backpedal issue? i was dropping chains down so much on my 11 speed Shimano cassette I had to switch to sram!


Is not as bad as it was with their 11 speed but you will still drop the chain on backpedal. Did not see a full Shimano though, talking about Shimano cassette, mech and shifter with SRAM chain and WT chainring. Doubt their chain would make any difference.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

bet it has more to do with chainring and derailleur alignment than anything else


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Not sure why everyone keeps associating it with just Shimano.

Everyone wants dinner plates for cogs, super short chain chains wide enough for stupid semi fat tires- well enjoy your back pedaling issue- you asked for them.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

FactoryMatt said:


> bet it has more to do with chainring and derailleur alignment than anything else





TwoTone said:


> This, not sure why everyone keeps associating it with just Shimano.
> 
> Everyone wants dinner plates for cogs, super short chain chains wide enough for stupid semi fat tires- well enjoy your back pedaling issue- you asked for them.


To a certain extent, this is true. That said, the frame I'm using now where I have this issue is supposedly tweaked to minimize problems. Yet they still occur. 148mm rear spacing, but offset 3mm to the drive side to improve chainline in biggest cogs. Chainline at the chainring is as narrow as I can get with a 30t chainring at 52mm, though the mfr says it should be 55mm for a 34t.

PART of the issue is the chainline of the chainring. This ignores the fact that cassettes also get wider as drivetrain manufacturers add more cogs. I didn't have backpedal chain drop when I was using 10spd 11-42 cassettes. I didn't get it till I hit 11spd bits. The effect of the wider cassettes is that the chain has to cover a lot more ground side-to-side now and that's at least as much of a contributor to the problem. Squish it all together with the shortest chainstays you can get (increasing the angles more) and you'll have problems.

I'm tempted to buy an SLX 10-51 cassette, chop off the 51t cog (would be the same gearing as the proposed 11spd 10-45 xtr cassette, and at the price of the SLX cassette, I'm a little more willing to experiment like that) and flip the switch on my m9100 shifter to the 11spd mode. It would improve chainline just a touch and might eliminate the backpedal chain drop issue altogether.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

i wouldn't rule out hanger alignment, slop in a worn or poorly executed derailleur linkage, and flex in hanger itself contributing to this.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

FactoryMatt said:


> i wouldn't rule out hanger alignment, slop in a worn or poorly executed derailleur linkage, and flex in hanger itself contributing to this.


I would. when backpedaling, the derailleur doesn't have anything to do with it. the chain rides up on top of a tooth on the cassette and then drops off and down a cog or a few.

I've noticed that it tends to happen on specific teeth of the cassette. Taking a file to the back of those culprit teeth to encourage the chain to slide back into place does address the problem.

But the ultimate problem is the extreme angle of the chain between the cassette and the chainring that hasn't always been an issue.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Harold said:


> I would. when backpedaling, the derailleur doesn't have anything to do with it. the chain rides up on top of a tooth on the cassette and then drops off and down a cog or a few.
> 
> I've noticed that it tends to happen on specific teeth of the cassette. Taking a file to the back of those culprit teeth to encourage the chain to slide back into place does address the problem.
> 
> But the ultimate problem is the extreme angle of the chain between the cassette and the chainring that hasn't always been an issue.


Agreed. I worded my response poorly when I quoted Matt, I just meant it's not brand specific, but situation specific.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I have a great 11 S SRAM 28, 10-42 perfect last 2.5 years
I have 2 20 speeds SRAM, other Shimano zero issues with my 3 bikes.
a 4.8 fat, a 3.0 + and a 2.3
Why would i buy 12?? ?? ??


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## MarkusBrand (Jul 15, 2011)

*Yes! It works*



MarkusBrand said:


> I'm currently running eagle but would love to use the new Shimano 12 Speed crank. From what I read on this thread is that the main compatibility issues are between chain and cassette? Is it safe to assume the eagle chain will work fine with FC-M9100 crank running CRM95 chainrings?


I've answered my own question.

Eagle Cassette X01, Derailleur XX1, Shifter XX1, Chain X01, with Shimano XTR m9100 Crank and CRM95 chainrings works great.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

A short notice invite to go riding forced me to get my drivetrain and brakes up and running in about an hour yesterday. XTR 9100 blows Eagle out of the water. The 4POT XTR brakes are awesome compared to the MT7 I had and are way less off on than my XT 785. The shifting is like butter. So smooth and none of the CLANG when you downshift. The chain went where you asked quietly and quickly....can't as much more.

My new wheels have the MT900 hubs and I love them. They roll forever compared to my I9s and the engagement....let's just say I don't need it any faster. I've been on Hopes and I9s and I do like the much quieter rear hub.

I also got the shimano dropper lever because my current lever did not fit the ispec. I like it. I like the spring return of the lever

One note on appearance....kind of utilitarian for XTR. The brakes are nice, but the rest is kid of drab. That's fine, but not the usual XTR in terms of looks. The cranks look like they would have that nice finish, but I opted for race face.

edited: took the bike for run up and down our local hill and it performed a well as it did at the park the day before. Up and downshifts were flawless even for this ham-fisted mechanic who does his own work. I installed the shifter using the iSpec mount and so far it seems to be positioned fairly well. I'm not wanting more angle or reach for my thumbs and having the ability to shift with my index finger again is a dream. It makes SRAM seem like its missing something.

I also feel the gearing is much smoother than Eagle. By that I meant the gaps between gears on the cassette. Sram has a bit more jumps it felt to me. I was on GX. Perhaps X01 and XX1 are better, but I'm super happy with the investment in XTR and gives me hope that XT will perform similarly as I may move this drivetrain to a race bike and get XT for my trail bike.


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## Twilight70 (May 24, 2019)

SebastianSWE said:


> Is the new chain compatible with Garbaruk chainring?


Might be a bit late for this response, but yes they work. I'm using a 28T melon CINCH and it's DEAD silent, even w/ the reported POS quick link.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

MarkusBrand said:


> I've answered my own question.
> 
> Eagle Cassette X01, Derailleur XX1, Shifter XX1, Chain X01, with Shimano XTR m9100 Crank and CRM95 chainrings works great.


But why??


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## Verbl Kint (Feb 14, 2013)

No backpedal issue with my 9-46 e*thirteen cogs, XTR GS RD, XTR shifter (switched to 11sp mode), and KMC extralight chain.

I've done multiple dh runs on a craggy track without the clutch engaged too. No dropped chains yet. 

It was a ***** to tune properly but once we got it right it worked like magic.


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## erb16 (Oct 15, 2015)

I've read the last couple of pages, but didnt see anything related to an issue I'm having with my new M9100 drivetrain.

When shifting to an easier gear (larger cog), the shifter paddle "locks up". If I release thumb pressure, then attempt the shift again, I get a silky shift. The paddle will have little to no freeplay when this happens. Like a bottle of super glue has been emptied into the shifter. Until, like I said, slightly back off the paddle and give it another push.

Now this doesn't happen every time. I'd say 1 out of 50 downshifts, maybe a touch more frequent. Otherwise, the drivetrain is flawless.

It usually happens while in the middle of the cassette somewhere. But has occured when shifting to the 51t. I have also felt this after disconnecting the cable from the derailleur and cycling the shifter up and down several times.

I thought (before disconnecting the cable) maybe the B tension is a little off. Causing the top of the cage to run into the adjacent larger cog. I adjusted it according to the online manual using the line printed onto the back of the cage. I have also wound the B tension screw in and out 1/4 turn with no difference.

I'm convinced there is a problem internally with the shifter. Like a pawl is getting jammed in the ratcheting index mechanism or something.

I'm thinking about making a warranty claim and getting a new shifter. But I am actually hoping the shifter will "break in".


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

Crazy, I received an xtr shifter just this week that is having the same issue. I may send it back to Jenson.



erb16 said:


> I've read the last couple of pages, but didnt see anything related to an issue I'm having with my new M9100 drivetrain.
> 
> When shifting to an easier gear (larger cog), the shifter paddle "locks up". If I release thumb pressure, then attempt the shift again, I get a silky shift. The paddle will have little to no freeplay when this happens. Like a bottle of super glue has been emptied into the shifter. Until, like I said, slightly back off the paddle and give it another push.
> 
> ...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

erb16 said:


> I'm thinking about making a warranty claim and getting a new shifter. But I am actually hoping the shifter will "break in".


IME, Shimano is real good about warrantying stuff. It sucks that you'd be out a shifter for a week or so, but hope isn't always a great strategy.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

Sounds like trying to lube the shifter internals might be a good starting point? It's quite easy to open up the shifter (three bolts keeping the lid in place), and then I'd try something like silicone spray or dry chain lube to see if it does it.


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## TunaFlapjack (Jun 17, 2019)

*Chain noise*



foggnm said:


> XT 12 ready to go!


 Interested to know if you're getting any chain noise from your setup? or anyone else for that matter, I'm running the XTR kit including hubs and I'm having loads of chain noise, it would seem that it's the top side of the chain and it would also seem it's the chain bouncing on and off the cassette? is anyone noticing excessive chain noise?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

TunaFlapjack said:


> Interested to know if you're getting any chain noise from your setup? or anyone else for that matter, I'm running the XTR kit including hubs and I'm having loads of chain noise, it would seem that it's the top side of the chain and it would also seem it's the chain bouncing on and off the cassette? is anyone noticing excessive chain noise?


Not sure with the 12 speed stuff, but Shimano chains are directional- did you put it on the right way?


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## TunaFlapjack (Jun 17, 2019)

Yep chain is on the correctly, its a strange one everything is setup as per shimarno guide lines. I have Increased the clutch strength and checked the cam position. Whats also odd it does it in pretty much all gears.


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## erb16 (Oct 15, 2015)

An update to the issue I was having with the shifter "locking up" when shifting to an easier gear.

After a half dozen or so rides, I believe the shifter has "broken in". 

For the first and second ride it was still happening, but far less frequently. Now it is very light, consistent, and smooth. No adjustments were made or lubrication of the shifter internals needed.

I love this drivetrain. I had previously been on M8000 with a 30t Wolftooth, Sunrace 11-46, and KMC x11sl DLC, and still have that setup on my Yelli Screamy. The shifting performance of the XTR is profoundly better. Also, there is a pronounced smoothness when pedaling, in any gear, that gives me a feeling of efficiency that I can only compare to the way my singlespeed feels. Like the friction of the chain running at an angle, rubbing the sides of the chainring teeth when at the extremes of the cassette, and rolling over the jockey wheels is non existent. I am using a shimano 12 speed compatible Wolftooth chainring fwiw.


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

I sent mine back. I am between frames and didn't want to deal with a sticky shifter AFTER I got done building a nice new bike. Good to know that it loosens up with use if replacement is wonky.



erb16 said:


> An update to the issue I was having with the shifter "locking up" when shifting to an easier gear.
> 
> After a half dozen or so rides, I believe the shifter has "broken in".
> 
> ...


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

Hmmm. The replacement shifter I received from Jenson does it too. And it looks like it has been opened and returned once before.......


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## TunaFlapjack (Jun 17, 2019)

Is no one else having the same noise issues? i have been back to the LBS who fitted a new chain and re configured as per Shimano manuals and still it’s like a filing cabinet falling down a set of stairs!

i have ordered the Santa Cruz MT Chain stay protector as ive seen a few others doing this, I’m also at Ard Rock this weekend so im hoping to give it into the Shimano tech to get his thoughts.
I have herd that the XTR cassette is noisier than the XT due to the use of titanium but mine is at the point where it puts you off when descending!


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

Something sounds odd. This is by far the quietest drivetrain I've ever run and I have it on two bikes, probably at least 500 miles. It was noisy while climbing before I sourced one of the plastic cassette shims but since then, quiet as a mouse. I'm curious to hear what Shimano says.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

andynunn said:


> Something sounds odd. This is by far the quietest drivetrain I've ever run and I have it on two bikes, probably at least 500 miles. It was noisy while climbing before I sourced one of the plastic cassette shims but since then, quiet as a mouse. I'm curious to hear what Shimano says.


Yeah, mine's awful quiet, too.

It did get to be creaky AF without the plastic shims, though. That thing is apparently essential. Odd that it wasn't included in the cassette package, but when I had my LBS source one for me, I ended up with a package of 10 for about $1, so I'm not complaining too much.

I do love how quiet my bike is right now, though. I get the buzz from my hubs and the sound of my tires gripping the trail and that's about it.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

So what's the general consensus these days on using the Shimano chain with the "old" WolfTooth chainrings? Works ok with a Sram quick link?
Does one need the Shimano chain to benefit from Hyperglide+ or that's only for chain retention on the chainring? Thx

And a closeup of the XT cassette for those interested -


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

mevnet said:


> So what's the general consensus these days on using the Shimano chain with the "old" WolfTooth chainrings? Works ok with a Sram quick link?
> Does one need the Shimano chain to benefit from Hyperglide+ or that's only for chain retention on the chainring? Thx


I ran 12sp XTR chain for a little while on an older WT ring, it seemed to work fine with the Eagle 12 quicklink, but it did leave marks on the chainring where the extended inner plates were making what is probably slightly more than ideal contact. I expect it quickly beds in and is fine, but I wouldn't do it with a stainless steel WT ring. I posted pics somewhere in one of these threads.

You definitely want to use the Shimano 12sp chain to get full benefit from HG+.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

Velodonata said:


> I ran 12sp XTR chain for a little while on an older WT ring, it seemed to work fine with the Eagle 12 quicklink, but it did leave marks on the chainring where the extended inner plates were making what is probably slightly more than ideal contact. I expect it quickly beds in and is fine, but I wouldn't do it with a stainless steel WT ring. I posted pics somewhere in one of these threads.
> 
> You definitely want to use the Shimano 12sp chain to get full benefit from HG+.


Awesome, thanks. Did you use the cassette without using the HG+ chain from Shimano?


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm running 11 speed wolftooth without issue. SRAM Eagle quick link. IMO the chain is integral to the amazing shifting of this system.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

get the new chainring. wolftooth's 11sp chainrings are thiccc.

i have an absoluteblack oval 12sp i'll sell you if you want. direct mount shimano 30T.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

mevnet said:


> Awesome, thanks. Did you use the cassette without using the HG+ chain from Shimano?


I was just trying the chain to see how it worked with my old drivetrain, I haven't been able to use my 12sp cassette yet due to both my new frame and Onyx's Microspline adapter failing to arrive yet.


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

So to the people on xtr how much of the claim of shifting under load is true?


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Would say all of it. I have it on two bikes and it’s just super smooth


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

The thing that I notice most is how automatic it is. You don't think you're doing it but on previous drivetrains including Eagle X01 you would sometimes need to hold it for a microsecond or two after the click. Depending on load you might be subtly unloading the chain ever so slightly at just the right moment. 

I haven't ridden Di2 but XTR12 is how I imagine it feels, I just hit the shifter and if it clicks, that gear is changing, right on time, its like hitting a button. No timing the pedal stroke really. Bonus - in a whole season its never come out of adjustment or started thrashing between gears, its just that precise.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Preston67 said:


> The thing that I notice most is how automatic it is. You don't think you're doing it but on previous drivetrains including Eagle X01 you would sometimes need to hold it for a microsecond or two after the click. Depending on load you might be subtly unloading the chain ever so slightly at just the right moment.
> 
> I haven't ridden Di2 but XTR12 is how I imagine it feels, I just hit the shifter and if it clicks, that gear is changing, right on time, its like hitting a button. No timing the pedal stroke really. Bonus - in a whole season its never come out of adjustment or started thrashing between gears, its just that precise.


I have ridden electronic (it's been awhile, but I remember how snappy it is) and M9100 isn't QUITE as automatic, but it was remarkable to me how Shimano managed to make a mechanical drivetrain with at least some characteristic of electronic. Yes, push the shifter lever (with a few hundred miles on mine, it's loosened up a good bit and feels quite smooth) and the derailleur moves the chain. No more of that "hold the shifter or push it a little bit past the gear you want to shift to" business with HG+.

When I first got it, I was intentionally trying to make bad shifts by powering through them. Shifting 1 cog at a time, no complaints whatsoever. Shifting 2 cogs at a time, still pretty solid. It did start complaining if I tried to dump more gears than that at once under power.


----------



## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

it shifts well under power, but im having a significant issue with the 16T cog spacing. this occurs on two separate 9100 cassettes. 

every other shift when upshifting to this ONE cog, you get overtravel and the chain wanders over to the 14t for a half revolution. 

i showed the shimano guys at sea otter and they had no answers. ill mic it when i get a chance, but i think the gap is off and the spacer needs to be a hair thicker.


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

FactoryMatt said:


> it shifts well under power, but im having a significant issue with the 16T cog spacing. this occurs on two separate 9100 cassettes.
> 
> every other shift when upshifting to this ONE cog, you get overtravel and the chain wanders over to the 14t for a half revolution.
> 
> i showed the shimano guys at sea otter and they had no answers. ill mic it when i get a chance, but i think the gap is off and the spacer needs to be a hair thicker.


Do you happen to still have the boxes? There is a "A" suffix revision to the part number of the most recent ones, I believe it is to include the little plastic spacer by attaching it to the back of the cassette, but I wonder if there were any other changes like to fix your issue?


----------



## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

not the A - separate clear shim installed on both.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Preston67 said:


> The thing that I notice most is how automatic it is. You don't think you're doing it but on previous drivetrains including Eagle X01 you would sometimes need to hold it for a microsecond or two after the click. Depending on load you might be subtly unloading the chain ever so slightly at just the right moment.
> .


If you have to hold the lever....you have something not set up right.
As nice as XTR12 is....it's not that much better than any other fresh, well set up drive train.


----------



## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

the mayor said:


> If you have to hold the lever....you have something not set up right.
> As nice as XTR12 is....it's not that much better than any other fresh, well set up drive train.


 Lies.


----------



## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> Lies.


Says the guy who hasn't spent time on XTR12 and doesn't know crap about bikes....and then there is the whole love of loads


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

O look it's the guy with the slut wife.


----------



## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

She may not know anything about drivetrains but she sure can drive a train.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> She may not know anything about drivetrains but she sure can drive a train.


So...what did I say that was lies, oh wise one?
Did you go to the shop and ride a bike...and now are full of wisdom? ( as opposed to loads?)


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

How about taking your pissing match to PMs? Already cluttering up more than one thread.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

TwoTone said:


> How about taking your pissing match to PMs? Already cluttering up more than one thread.


Agreed....any who...
About that XTR12.....it's now on both my A bikes after selling the bike with AXS


----------



## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

one other thought, 

anyone having trouble discerning difference between 2nd to 1st downshift and already being in 1st? in other words, the downshift to the 51T is REALLY stiff. i've adjusted b tension, lubed cables, checked routing, etc.

i love XTR stuff, but these little niggles are very un-Shimano.


----------



## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

FactoryMatt said:


> one other thought,
> 
> anyone having trouble discerning difference between 2nd to 1st downshift and already being in 1st? in other words, the downshift to the 51T is REALLY stiff. i've adjusted b tension, lubed cables, checked routing, etc.
> 
> i love XTR stuff, but these little niggles are very un-Shimano.


Mine was smooth the few times I went into the 51...which wasn't often.
I ended up going to 45 cassettes on both bikes.
And now my chain is too short to try the 51 cassette I have on the shelf...so ...sorry

Also....I was/am using the GS short cage derailleur on the 51....and it worked just as good was the long cage( which I tried)...despite what the marketing material says.


----------



## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

thx. 

i've dropped a chain a couple times w/ a 51t cass and SGS, so think its needed for the extra wrap. actually cut two links off to get more tension despite it maxing out due to chain growth before bottoming while in the 51. have since added a chain guide as well. 

435mm CS
114 links on a 30T chainring (now down to 112)
~25-30mm of chain growth at full extension (ibis ripmo)


----------



## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

FactoryMatt said:


> thx.
> 
> i've dropped a chain a couple times w/ a 51t cass and SGS, so think its needed for the extra wrap. actually cut two links off to get more tension despite it maxing out due to chain growth before bottoming while in the 51. have since added a chain guide as well.
> 
> ...


The chain wrap is the same on Gs and SGS....the upper pulley is in the same place on both ( which is what gives the wrap)
Shimano's warning is more about suspension growth like you have....where the bigger cog may need more slack and take up.
But...what are the chances of bottoming...or even using more than 1/2 travel in 1st gear? (don't go out and try to prove me wrong...lol)
I run my chain a double link shorter than recommended on my fs

When you say drop the chain...do you mean off the chainring? Or off the big cog?


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

by wrap i mean chain capacity. capacity is calculated (for 1x) as smallest cog teeth subtracted from largest cog teeth. 51T-10T = 41T

GS has 35T cap. SGS has 41T cap. 
https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/spec/MTB/Rear Derailleur

chain drop off chainring due to lack of tension coupled w/ aggressive riding.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

The only thing I can suggest for the climb up onto the 51 is check the b screw and the limit screw...sometimes a 1/8th turn does amazing things.(and other times it turns everything into crap...then you throw your bike across the shop and go drink beer)
And derailleur hanger


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

yep yep. thx. i kinda feel like the leverage ratio is kinda compromised (where the cable actually mounts to the RD)

. they have to make it semi-low because (for whatever reason) it runs such low tension on the 10T cog. IOW seems like they cant use more mechanical leverage because it would make the small-cog indexing less consistent/more sensitive. just speculating....


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

the mayor said:


> Also....I was/am using the GS short cage derailleur on the 51....and it worked just as good was the long cage( which I tried)...despite what the marketing material says.


just spit balling here...what suspension travel is your bike? i wonder if the "long cage" recommendation is to cover longer travel bikes with increased chain growth?


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

tdc_worm said:


> just spit balling here...what suspension travel is your bike? i wonder if the "long cage" recommendation is to cover longer travel bikes with increased chain growth?


Knock it off with the spit balls....or you are going to detention!
It's a 120 Trek.But I also have a hardtail.
Shimano is always conservative with their numbers.
I bought both derailleurs just to see what worked.
The short cage has no issues on either the f/s or hardtail with the 51t....for me...and I played around with chain length.
But....like I said....I went with a 45t because I never used the 51 here in New England.( and to be honest....the 10 doesn't see much use either)
But I do have the 51 cassette on the shelf....if I do a race with lots of climbing...I will put it on with a longer chain just in case my old legs give out


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

the mayor said:


> Knock it off with the spit balls....or you are going to detention!
> It's a 120 Trek.But I also have a hardtail.
> Shimano is always conservative with their numbers.
> I bought both derailleurs just to see what worked.
> ...


i used to think they were conservative until i ruined a RD and rear wheel running a GS 9000 dura ace derailleur with a 32T cassette in a bumpy cyclocross race. Now, i say go by the book.

while running in about the 34/16, that chain came off the guide pulley, jammed in the cage, and when i cranked out of a corner it ripped the RD off and sent it straight into the spokes.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

FactoryMatt said:


> i used to think they were conservative until i ruined a RD and rear wheel running a GS 9000 dura ace derailleur with a 32T cassette in a bumpy cyclocross race. Now, i say go by the book.
> 
> while running in about the 34/16, that chain came off the guide pulley, jammed in the cage, and when i cranked out of a corner it ripped the RD off and sent it straight into the spokes.


Seeing you were in the 16t.....not sure what that has to do with not running more than a 32t?
I run a 34t on 9000 and 9070 for years without issues...including a little mud and sand in Belgium and Holland.(even though they say you can't)

But ...I found one of the biggest factors is where a bike's der hanger places the derailleur. I had a Colnago C50 cross that I could not use bigger than a 28t cog because the der placement.

But...I'm probably going to get yelled at by someone about not keeping this about XTR12.

Hey now! How about that XTR12, eh?


----------



## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

the mayor said:


> Seeing you were in the 16t.....not sure what that has to do with not running more than a 32t?
> I run a 34t on 9000 and 9070 for years without issues...including a little mud and sand in Belgium and Holland.
> 
> But ...I found one of the biggest factors is where a bike's der hanger places the derailleur. I had a Colnago C50 cross that I could not use bigger than a 28t cog because the der placement.
> ...


Because the chain has to be longer to accomodate that 32t cog. Longer chains offer less tension in any given gear.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

tdc_worm said:


> just spit balling here...what suspension travel is your bike? i wonder if the "long cage" recommendation is to cover longer travel bikes with increased chain growth?


To add to your spit balling:
When Shimano or Sram or whoever lay out their derailleur spread.....they have to guess if the bike has a 22 or 38 front chain ring.....what chain line...how long are the chain stays ....add in suspension growth and travel.....and where the hanger places the derailleur on different bikes....
Then add in the BIG variable: the mechanic's ability to put things together.
Pretty easy to see why they err on the cautious side


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

the mayor said:


> To add to your spit balling:
> When Shimano or Sram or whoever lay out their derailleur spread.....they have to guess if the bike has a 22 or 38 front chain ring.....what chain line...how long are the chain stays ....add in suspension growth and travel.....and where the hanger places the derailleur on different bikes....
> Then add in the BIG variable: the mechanic's ability to put things together.
> Pretty easy to see why they err on the cautious side


With the weight of some riders our toys face some serious stress. It is amazing that we can fall many times and still ride without repair needed. At 3.5 years of mountain biking yesterday i broke my first hanger from picking a big branch.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

the mayor said:


> Also....I was/am using the GS short cage derailleur on the 51....and it worked just as good was the long cage( which I tried)...despite what the marketing material says.


Interesting observation.

I'm running the 10-45 cassette w/GS derailleur (don't want a bunch of extra derailleur cage hanging out there) with a 30t chainring. I don't really drop down to the 10t at all, but I do want lower gearing options for the steeper and/or longer climbs that I encounter. Nobody is making a chainring smaller than 30t that's compatible with the HG+ chain, so going smaller would require me to buy a bunch of Eagle quick links to replace the Shimano ones (the one on the chain now AND the spares that I have).

If 10-51 will work with a GS derailleur (especially on a hardtail), I might pick up an XT or SLX cassette and give it a go.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Harold said:


> Interesting observation.
> 
> I'm running the 10-45 cassette w/GS derailleur (don't want a bunch of extra derailleur cage hanging out there) with a 30t chainring. I don't really drop down to the 10t at all, but I do want lower gearing options for the steeper and/or longer climbs that I encounter. Nobody is making a chainring smaller than 30t that's compatible with the HG+ chain, so going smaller would require me to buy a bunch of Eagle quick links to replace the Shimano ones (the one on the chain now AND the spares that I have).
> 
> If 10-51 will work with a GS derailleur (especially on a hardtail), I might pick up an XT or SLX cassette and give it a go.


I am running a newer AbBlack chainring and it works fine with the Shimano quicklink.
The older one I had on the shelf hung up a little...so I ran a Sram or KMC quicklink.
And this was on a f/s....and now I have a hardtail set up too.
For me....running a 30T in front...I never used the 51...so why have it.
And running 29+, which ups the gearing a bit...I can count on 1 hand the times I use the 10 in a week of riding.
So...for me...running the 51 cassette gave me a 10 speed with 12 cogs....again, why have it.
The 45 cassette is a better fit for me....( but I can see why/where people would want a 51)
Getting the chain length right ...along with the B screw...makes a big difference on any of the big cog drive trains.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

33red said:


> At 3.5 years of mountain biking yesterday i broke my first hanger from picking a big branch.


I have bent and broken plenty of hangers and derailleurs in 30 years.
With modern derailleurs getting longer ( the 12s GS is longer than the 11s GS..and the long cages are really long), they hang down pretty low.
I destroyed a $700 AXS derailleur this year....the hanger was still straight. 
I cried .....


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## luckyguy19 (Jun 28, 2017)

I'm thinking of switching from my GX eagle setup to XT 12 Speed. I should be able to use the SRAM Eagle front chainring with XT Chain, derailleur, cassette, and shifter as long as I use the SRAM Power lock link? At this time I don't want the added cost of a new crank and bottom bracket.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

luckyguy19 said:


> I'm thinking of switching from my GX eagle setup to XT 12 Speed. I should be able to use the SRAM Eagle front chainring with XT Chain, derailleur, cassette, and shifter as long as I use the SRAM Power lock link? At this time I don't want the added cost of a new crank and bottom bracket.


Yes.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

the mayor said:


> I am running a newer AbBlack chainring and it works fine with the Shimano quicklink.


I have an older one that seems to mesh fine, but I used it when I lived in a flatter place and so it's even bigger than what I have now. So they've done something with their newer models that lets them play nicer with the M9100 quick links?


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Harold said:


> I have an older one that seems to mesh fine, but I used it when I lived in a flatter place and so it's even bigger than what I have now. So they've done something with their newer models that lets them play nicer with the M9100 quick links?


The new old stock one I had was a little tight on the quick link....enough that I just used a different quick link.( because there wasn't much info on it back then)
I honestly don't know if they changed it....although their website alludes to it...or it's just a different batch.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

the mayor said:


> The new old stock one I had was a little tight on the quick link....enough that I just used a different quick link.( because there wasn't much info on it back then)
> I honestly don't know if they changed it....although their website alludes to it...or it's just a different batch.


Interesting. I fired them an e-mail a little bit ago. Like I said, I've been considering going that route to get the gearing I want, but wasn't super enthused about replacing not only the Shimano quick link on the chain already, but the spares I bought (amounts to 3 quick links). For now, I've just been pushing as hard as I could with the gearing I have (and, of course, blowing myself up on the bigger/steeper climbs).


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Harold said:


> Interesting. I fired them an e-mail a little bit ago. Like I said, I've been considering going that route to get the gearing I want, but wasn't super enthused about replacing not only the Shimano quick link on the chain already, but the spares I bought (amounts to 3 quick links). For now, I've just been pushing as hard as I could with the gearing I have (and, of course, blowing myself up on the bigger/steeper climbs).


Jeez guy....quick links only cost a couple bucks. It won't wreck your 401K....lol
I have a 28t Ab Black ring that may end up on one of the bikes to see if that spread works better.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

the mayor said:


> Jeez guy....quick links only cost a couple bucks. It won't wreck your 401K....lol


It's not just about the money.


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

I'm ready to jump to XTR 12 spd. Where is the most cost effect place to get it from?
Looking for.….

10-45 12 spd cassette
12 spd shifter
12 spd chain
medium cage derailleur

Thanks


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Tree said:


> I'm ready to jump to XTR 12 spd. Where is the most cost effect place to get it from?
> Looking for.&#8230;.
> 
> 10-45 12 spd cassette
> ...


Try https://www.merlincycles.com

UK distributor still shipping to the US it appears. Significantly less, but wasn't the cheapest back then the Germans were still selling.


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Thanks, but out of stock of the derailleur and shifter.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Tree said:


> Thanks, but out of stock of the derailleur and shifter.


WEll...I would imagine they get them back in stock fairly regularly if you have patience.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Tree said:


> I'm ready to jump to XTR 12 spd. Where is the most cost effect place to get it from?
> Looking for.&#8230;.
> 
> 10-45 12 spd cassette
> ...


Do a Google search.........


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

universal cycles isn't terrible with their 15% disc over a couple hundred $


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## rpearce1475 (Jan 24, 2015)

Ok, so say that I wanted to run the new xtr 12 speed, but wanted a gold chain because I'm vain I guess and like the bling-bling. If I were to run a Sram eagle xx1 12 speed chain, or KMC 12 speed chain, would I completely lose all the awesome shifting attributes of hyperglide+? Would run with one of the new wolftooth shimano 12 speed chainrings fwiw


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

rpearce1475 said:


> Ok, so say that I wanted to run the new xtr 12 speed, but wanted a gold chain because I'm vain I guess and like the bling-bling. If I were to run a Sram eagle xx1 12 speed chain, or KMC 12 speed chain, would I completely lose all the awesome shifting attributes of hyperglide+? Would run with one of the new wolftooth shimano 12 speed chainrings fwiw


NO real world experience, but my understanding is the chain plays a big role in it being quiet and awesome, but not from it working.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

rpearce1475 said:


> Ok, so say that I wanted to run the new xtr 12 speed, but wanted a gold chain because I'm vain I guess and like the bling-bling. If I were to run a Sram eagle xx1 12 speed chain, or KMC 12 speed chain, would I completely lose all the awesome shifting attributes of hyperglide+? Would run with one of the new wolftooth shimano 12 speed chainrings fwiw


I have run it with a KMC and the SRAM chain.
If there is a difference...it is minute.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

rpearce1475 said:


> Ok, so say that I wanted to run the new xtr 12 speed, but wanted a gold chain because I'm vain I guess and like the bling-bling. If I were to run a Sram eagle xx1 12 speed chain, or KMC 12 speed chain, would I completely lose all the awesome shifting attributes of hyperglide+? Would run with one of the new wolftooth shimano 12 speed chainrings fwiw


apologies for being sardonic, but half the reason to move to shimano XTR in the first place is to get away from KMC and SRAM chains.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

FactoryMatt said:


> apologies for being sardonic, but half the reason to move to shimano XTR in the first place is to get away from KMC and SRAM chains.


You can run, but you won't get far.
You do realize that KMC has made chains for Shimano and SRAM, right?
( I don't know who is making the current XTR chain )


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

the mayor said:


> You can run, but you won't get far.
> You do realize that KMC has made chains for Shimano and SRAM, right?
> ( I don't know who is making the current XTR chain )


Does that matter? They may be making them, but to Shimano's spec, not their own.

You say you've run it with Sram and KMC, but have you run it with Shimano?


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

rpearce1475 said:


> Ok, so say that I wanted to run the new xtr 12 speed, but wanted a gold chain because I'm vain I guess and like the bling-bling. If I were to run a Sram eagle xx1 12 speed chain, or KMC 12 speed chain, would I completely lose all the awesome shifting attributes of hyperglide+? Would run with one of the new wolftooth shimano 12 speed chainrings fwiw


If you're paying up for XTR and the HG+, don't run a non-HG+ chain. Doesn't make any sense at all.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

TwoTone said:


> Does that matter? They may be making them, but to Shimano's spec, not their own.
> 
> You say you've run it with Sram and KMC, but have you run it with Shimano?


If you read my posts.....I have mixed and matched about every combo.
But I have the most miles on XTR chains....close to 1000 miles now 
Having 2 bikes with XTR12....I could ride them back to back with different chain and cassette combos.

The whole mega hype about the amazeballs shifting of XTR or AXS is just that:hype.
Yes....they both work very, very good. Great even.
How much better than any correctly set up modern system?
A little....maybe.

But if you want to take the marketing Kool-aide enema .....you are welcome to.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

the mayor said:


> If you read my posts.....I have mixed and matched about every combo.
> But I have the most miles on XTR chains....close to 1000 miles now
> Having 2 bikes with XTR12....I could ride them back to back with different chain and cassette combos.
> 
> ...


Ya we should get refunds for the **** they were asking money for.
Just like the Shitmano motor.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

33red said:


> Ya we should get refunds for the **** they were asking money for.
> Just like the Shitmano motor.


What time do you start drinking in the morning?


----------



## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

the mayor said:


> You can run, but you won't get far.
> You do realize that KMC has made chains for Shimano and SRAM, right?
> ( I don't know who is making the current XTR chain )


KMC is a Taiwanese company. All my Shimano chains say Japan on them.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

FactoryMatt said:


> KMC is a Taiwanese company. All my Shimano chains say Japan on them.


Your chains say "VIA Japan"...short for Vehicle Inspection Assoc Japan.( think UL marking in the US)
Not Made in Japan. 
Shimano has manufacturing facilities is Taiwan, China, Malaysia and Vietnam among other places. They claim that most of their upper end stuff is made in Japan.

KMC does a big part of their manufacturing in China....and other countries.
I have been in the KMC and Shimano plants in China.....pretty big places banging out butt loads of bicycle parts.

Like I said...I don't know who is making their upper end chains....but I doubt they are. But...who knows if they are and where they are doing it.

Global economy is a crazy thing


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

the mayor said:


> Your chains say "VIA Japan"...short for Vehicle Inspection Assoc Japan.( think UL marking in the US)
> Not Made in Japan.
> Shimano has manufacturing facilities is Taiwan, China, Malaysia and Vietnam among other places. They claim that most of their upper end stuff is made in Japan.
> 
> ...


Didn't say they were made in Japan, just that my shimano chains probabbbly arent KMC. Unless KMC gets VIA cert. You tell me.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

FactoryMatt said:


> Didn't say they were made in Japan, just that my shimano chains probabbbly arent KMC. Unless KMC gets VIA cert. You tell me.


KMC would need VIA Japan cert to sell chains in Japan....which they do.
Just like everything from your phone to refrigerator that is made in China or where ever has a UL stamp on it.

And SRAM and Shimano both outsource maufacturing...like every other company.


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## Eneen (Jul 4, 2017)

I wonder if it's possible to use "classic" chain on Absolute Black or Wolftooth new chainring. Seems like new chainrings have cutouts for inner plates and bit narrower teeth so this could work. Anyone has such combo?


----------



## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Eneen said:


> I wonder if it's possible to use "classic" chain on Absolute Black or Wolftooth new chainring. Seems like new chainrings have cutouts for inner plates and bit narrower teeth so this could work. Anyone has such combo?


Why wouldn't it?
The only thing that was a problem with the XTR chain is the snug quick link.....
Internal width of the chain ( besides the quick link) hasn't changed.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

the mayor said:


> The new old stock one I had was a little tight on the quick link....enough that I just used a different quick link.( because there wasn't much info on it back then)
> I honestly don't know if they changed it....although their website alludes to it...or it's just a different batch.


Whatever results you got from Absolute Black apparently aren't intentional. They told me to use a whole SRAM Eagle chain with their chainrings on my Shimano system. Great idea, but I've already got the Shimano 12spd chain. They also told me that when they do release their "officially compatible with Shimano 12spd" chainrings, 30t will be the smallest they go. Not enough for me to be willing to gamble on (I don't care that much about oval rings. Have used them in the past, meh), and I'm a little cranky about all the companies that are outright refusing to make a 28t chainring. If/when Oneup makes one (they're the only company that hasn't outright refused to make one), I'll be buying it JUST to support them for that decision.

Decided to grab a $20 RaceFace steel 28t chainring and SRAM quick links and be done with it. Did a ride the other day that made it painfully obvious that my lowest gear is too tall for me on the biggest climbs in my area and I need to stop waffling and just buy something.


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

the mayor said:


> Why wouldn't it?
> The only thing that was a problem with the XTR chain is the snug quick link.....
> Internal width of the chain ( besides the quick link) hasn't changed.


Not the only thing, the length of the inner plates is a difference that is unique to the new 12 speed Shimano chains, it's unrelated to the stupid narrow quicklink and it is part of the reason for the new chainrings. But these differences shouldn't be a problem for any existing chains other than they might run a little looser on the new Shimano specific chainrings than the Shimano chain.


----------



## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

FactoryMatt said:


> one other thought,
> 
> anyone having trouble discerning difference between 2nd to 1st downshift and already being in 1st? in other words, the downshift to the 51T is REALLY stiff. i've adjusted b tension, lubed cables, checked routing, etc.
> 
> i love XTR stuff, but these little niggles are very un-Shimano.


We had some weird shifting problems with the XT derailleur that sound similar to this, and I then realized the cable was threaded around the anchor bolt wrong. It needs to come in from the left and wrap around and exit on the right (as you look at the bolt). As soon as I fixed that, shifting became perfect. (I made the same mistake on my 11-speed XT derailleur, and it doesn't seem to matter in that case. The 12-speed is apparently less forgiving of people like me who can't follow directions.)


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

thanks for posting, but yea, already checked that to no avail. it's a pretty minor issue at this point, but still not ideal. 

i guess the leverage ratio *curve* is just inherently regressive as you go up the cassette. the shift effort in the top three gears just gets progressively harder and there's nothing you can really do about it unless you compromise the starting ratio in the 12sp (ie make it too high/easy). 12 gears is just a big spread to optimize...


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

I think you just gave a legit reason for electronic shifting.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

haha probably so. gonna break my shifter cable mashing the lever on steep climbs looking for other gears that aren't there.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Harold said:


> Whatever results you got from Absolute Black apparently aren't intentional. They told me to use a whole SRAM Eagle chain with their chainrings on my Shimano system. Great idea, but I've already got the Shimano 12spd chain. They also told me that when they do release their "officially compatible with Shimano 12spd" chainrings, 30t will be the smallest they go. Not enough for me to be willing to gamble on (I don't care that much about oval rings. Have used them in the past, meh), and I'm a little cranky about all the companies that are outright refusing to make a 28t chainring. If/when Oneup makes one (they're the only company that hasn't outright refused to make one), I'll be buying it JUST to support them for that decision.
> 
> Decided to grab a $20 RaceFace steel 28t chainring and SRAM quick links and be done with it. Did a ride the other day that made it painfully obvious that my lowest gear is too tall for me on the biggest climbs in my area and I need to stop waffling and just buy something.


The guys at Ab Black ( or any other mfgr) aren't going to tell you to put a Sram quick link in a Shimano chain because of liability. I'm really surprised they suggested a Sram chain.
And as far as smaller chain rings....the advent of 50+T pie plates is making them go the way of the dodo bird.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

When 12 S does not cover your need there is 22. 
About 36-26 front with 11/50
My fat is 20 S 36-22 front with 11/42


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

the mayor said:


> And as far as smaller chain rings....the advent of 50+T pie plates is making them go the way of the dodo bird.


What surprises me the most about all the aftermarket companies is that now that Shimano has apparently figured out their crank/chainring supply issues, there's a 28t available from them for their cranks.

If I decide I really want to spend whatever to be done with the chainring hassle in getting the gearing I want, I might eventually buy a Shimano crank for this bike.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

i have an extra 9100 30T if anyone needs.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Harold said:


> What surprises me the most about all the aftermarket companies is that now that Shimano has apparently figured out their crank/chainring supply issues, there's a 28t available from them for their cranks.
> 
> If I decide I really want to spend whatever to be done with the chainring hassle in getting the gearing I want, I might eventually buy a Shimano crank for this bike.


Huh....Interesting on the 28t. I honestly haven't looked at any options for Shimano cranks because I don't use them(although they are very good cranks)

I think you are going to be fine with the ring you just bought.
I have about a 1000 miles on AbBlack cinch ovals with the XTR chain...including a 6 hour mud race.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

the mayor said:


> I think you are going to be fine with the ring you just bought.


Oh, if I buy Shimano cranks for this bike to replace the RF Turbines, it'll be 100% out of spite.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Harold said:


> Oh, if I buy Shimano cranks for this bike to replace the RF Turbines, it'll be 100% out of spite.


I know you said you were (meh) on oval rings, but Shimano 12s Wolftooth rings are great and a 30t elliptical is like a 28/32 combo-ring in one if you didn't already know that. Assume you do, but figured I'd throw it out there. I have a ton of climbing in my trail network also and I'm using a 32t ring up front cause I was too impatient to wait for the 30t ring. I think its keeping me in the upper aluminum rings more than I'd like and I don't want to wear those down since the whole $300+ cassette needs tube replaced when those go. So may pick up a 30t. I just don't care too much about the lower gear speeds.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

WoodstockMTB said:


> I know you said you were (meh) on oval rings, but Shimano 12s Wolftooth rings are great and a 30t elliptical is like a 28/32 combo-ring in one if you didn't already know that. Assume you do,


I get it. But here's the thing, when I need a lower gear (like a 28-45 on the biggest, steepest climbs), I do NOT want my chainring alternating between that and a taller 32-45. Like I said before, I used an oval (Absolute Black) in the past and it didn't thrill me. The only notable improvement I could say that I really got out of it was that it evened out power delivery to my rear wheel, which made the biggest difference when riding my fatbike in the snow, as it reduced how often it broke loose on me. I barely ride in snow anymore since I moved 800mi south, so I frankly don't care about ovals.


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## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> I think you just gave a legit reason for electronic shifting.


I came to this conclusion as well. (I have had Di2 on a road bike for 5 years now, and it seems more compelling for 12-speed.) BTW, XT was a radical improvement from SRAM GX eagle.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

I have a new never used rear 12 speed xtr shifter i spec EV (1x12 set up) and a very lightly used XTR R/rear brake lever ispec-ev compatible (the current XTR 9120 brake lever). The only thing I don't have is the nut that rests inside the brake clamp that accepts the screw that is on the shifter. Maybe you're clever and have such a part or maybe you don't need that part. If so this is a great deal for you. 
Shifter for $100, $60 brake lever, $150 for both.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Does any one notice when tightening up the m9100 cassette onto the microspline a god awful noise? It doesn't sound like it's engaging the freehub properly but it's fine and is sitting all flush and all the cogs are in the correct place

Just sounds so awful like it's mis mashing as you tighten it down?


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

No such noises here.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Hmmm strange then do you grease the freehub splines and threads of cassette?

It's a god awful noise sounds grinding like it's knackering the threads but I've checked it all and seems fine 

There's only 1 black spacer on the cassette isn't there? I don't think I'm doing anything obviously wrong

I get to 40nm and it doesn't even feel like I've turned the torque wrench 1 full revolution before it clicks


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

the mayor said:


> I use a Ab Black oval with XTR12 chain. You have to use a SRAM or KMC quicklink....and it works fine.
> If you're hung up on using the Shimano link....you have a while to wait.


The absolute black oval works well with the 12 speed stuff? I just installed XT 12 speed (minus cranks) on my 2015 non-boost bronson. On every single gear, it gets hung up, you see the derailleur extending (like it's shifting to a larger cog) and then my chain falls off.

I tracked it down to the chainring. After a second or two, the chain is sitting on top of the teeth and then the derailleur shifts, and then the chain falls off the chainring.

I'm using a raceface narrow wide on 104bcd (used to be a 2x GXP crank, but I removed the inner ring).


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jdang307 said:


> The absolute black oval works well with the 12 speed stuff? I just installed XT 12 speed (minus cranks) on my 2015 non-boost bronson. On every single gear, it gets hung up, you see the derailleur extending (like it's shifting to a larger cog) and then my chain falls off.
> 
> I tracked it down to the chainring. After a second or two, the chain is sitting on top of the teeth and then the derailleur shifts, and then the chain falls off the chainring.
> 
> I'm using a raceface narrow wide on 104bcd (used to be a 2x GXP crank, but I removed the inner ring).


You either need to use an Eagle quick link instead of the Shimano one, or install a shimano 12spd compatible chainring. So long as you don't need anything smaller than a 30t, there are aftermarket options from Wolftooth that should work for you.

I wanted a 28t chainring, so I bought a regular RF steel N/W ring for my Turbine cranks and am using an Eagle quick link on the chain. It shifts just as well, but there's a little more noise from the system when just pedaling in a single gear. Probably from the tighter fit with the teeth on the chainring and the little bit of dirt.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Harold said:


> You either need to use an Eagle quick link instead of the Shimano one, or install a shimano 12spd compatible chainring. So long as you don't need anything smaller than a 30t, there are aftermarket options from Wolftooth that should work for you.
> 
> I wanted a 28t chainring, so I bought a regular RF steel N/W ring for my Turbine cranks and am using an Eagle quick link on the chain. It shifts just as well, but there's a little more noise from the system when just pedaling in a single gear. Probably from the tighter fit with the teeth on the chainring and the little bit of dirt.


So it's actually the quick link that is pushing it out? Wow. I've got to go see it now.

Hmm, I still have a KMC one laying around somewhere. Just saved me some money if true! 30T is fine. I'm on a 30f/42r now, so 30T with 51r is going to feel like I'm walking on clouds.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

jdang307 said:


> So it's actually the quick link that is pushing it out? Wow. I've got to go see it now.


If you look closely at the inside of the link plates on the Shimano 12sp and SRAM Eagle chains you can see how they have reliefs for the chainring teeth stamped into them. Both the inner and outer plates are like this. The Eagle quicklink has matching reliefs, but for some idiotic reason Shimano decided their quicklink didn't need to match the dimensions of the rest of the chain and it does not have these reliefs, it is simply flat on the inside. This is where the problem with Shimano chains riding off of chainrings comes from. Even though the chain seems to fit fine, the quicklink is narrower. Using the Eagle quicklink solves this problem.

There are other differences with the Shimano chain for Hyperglide+ applications, primarily the inner plates have an extended taper that makes them longer than other chains. It can be a problem with certain chainrings but this is less of an issue than the stupid quicklink, in my experience with a WT 11sp ring it left witness marks but otherwise functioned normally, where the Shimano quicklink was a dealbreaker until I switched to an Eagle quicklink.

With the Shimano specific Narrow-wide chainrings there may be a benefit to the wider teeth being slightly narrower with the Hyperglide+ system, and other minor tooth profile changes to match the chain, but Shimano making the quicklink significantly tighter than the rest of the chain makes no sense to me, and I am generally a Shimano guy.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Velodonata said:


> With the Shimano specific Narrow-wide chainrings there may be a benefit to the wider teeth being slightly narrower with the Hyperglide+ system, and other minor tooth profile changes to match the chain, but Shimano making the quicklink significantly tighter than the rest of the chain makes no sense to me, and I am generally a Shimano guy.


That stupid quick link wrecks the chainring situation if you keep to the shimano quick link. Nobody's making shimano 12spd-compatible rings smaller than 30t, except for Shimano, and only for their own direct mount cranks. And hell, I just saw that Wolftooth just released some rings with nickel plating to match the Cane Creek eeWings crank (SRAM DM interface), and those don't come any smaller than 32t. So in order to use a smaller ring with the 10-45 cassette to get the gearing I want, I was basically forced to use older n/w rings (Eagle compatible) and change to Eagle quick links. It works, but it's a pain since I already had stuff I'd bought. Would have been an even bigger pain to buy a Shimano crank w/28t ring, since I'd have to change the bb, also. I think I have 3 Shimano 12spd quick links now, that I'm not likely to use again anytime soon (if ever).


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

Don't have everything I need for an upcomming build, but I was screwing around with the Shimano 12sp chain and a 30t Wolf Tooth eliptical chainring that I bought this time last year. The chain is incredibly tight on the chainring. By tight I mean you have to push the chain really hard for it to mate with the teeth on the ring. An 11sp chain is snug but does not need to be pushed on to mate with the teeth at all. 

Are your chains this tight on non-shimano rings or is what I have a non-starter?

Almost ready to say screw it and buy an 12sp XT crank and 30t ring from Jenson with the 20% sale this weekend. 

My current cranks are XX1's which I have used for a long time and would like to continue to use if possible.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Velodonata said:


> If you look closely at the inside of the link plates on the Shimano 12sp and SRAM Eagle chains you can see how they have reliefs for the chainring teeth stamped into them. Both the inner and outer plates are like this. The Eagle quicklink has matching reliefs, but for some idiotic reason Shimano decided their quicklink didn't need to match the dimensions of the rest of the chain and it does not have these reliefs, it is simply flat on the inside. This is where the problem with Shimano chains riding off of chainrings comes from. Even though the chain seems to fit fine, the quicklink is narrower. Using the Eagle quicklink solves this problem.
> 
> There are other differences with the Shimano chain for Hyperglide+ applications, primarily the inner plates have an extended taper that makes them longer than other chains. It can be a problem with certain chainrings but this is less of an issue than the stupid quicklink, in my experience with a WT 11sp ring it left witness marks but otherwise functioned normally, where the Shimano quicklink was a dealbreaker until I switched to an Eagle quicklink.
> 
> With the Shimano specific Narrow-wide chainrings there may be a benefit to the wider teeth being slightly narrower with the Hyperglide+ system, and other minor tooth profile changes to match the chain, but Shimano making the quicklink significantly tighter than the rest of the chain makes no sense to me, and I am generally a Shimano guy.


I have this chainring. https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/race-face-narrow-wide-single-chainring/rp-prod109723

What are the signs I need too look for to be sure it's running smoothly? Obviously I need to ensure it works, and doesn't make ridiculously loud sounds. But anything else? Look for tooth marks? Just want to be sure I'm not ripping my chain up from the inside.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

bigdrunk said:


> Don't have everything I need for an upcomming build, but I was screwing around with the Shimano 12sp chain and a 30t Wolf Tooth eliptical chainring that I bought this time last year. The chain is incredibly tight on the chainring. By tight I mean you have to push the chain really hard for it to mate with the teeth on the ring. An 11sp chain is snug but does not need to be pushed on to mate with the teeth at all.
> 
> Are your chains this tight on non-shimano rings or is what I have a non-starter?
> 
> ...


No, my chain isn't that tight on any of the rings I checked. I checked a worn but serviceable Absolute Black 11spd oval (because of comments the mayor made) and on the regular links it fit fine, but at the Shimano quick link, it was a no go at all. I have a wolftooth 30t shimano 12spd ring to compare with, too. compared to that, the old AB ring fits a TINY bit more snug on the regular links, but not to the point that I have to push it on the links. Same with the Race Face steel 28t ring I just installed. The tiny bit of extra snugness doesn't affect anything when riding. I've had it on for a week and have ridden about 35mi on it so far (minus the brutal hike-a-biking that not even an ebike could ride) and it works just fine. A little bit more "gritty" noise because there's less room for sand/dirt between the chain and the teeth of the chainring. It'll probably translate into some amount of extra wear, but we'll see.



jdang307 said:


> I have this chainring. https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/race-face-narrow-wide-single-chainring/rp-prod109723
> 
> What are the signs I need too look for to be sure it's running smoothly? Obviously I need to ensure it works, and doesn't make ridiculously loud sounds. But anything else? Look for tooth marks? Just want to be sure I'm not ripping my chain up from the inside.


The teeth need to be able to slide on and off with little effort. If you CAN use a shimano 12spd compatible chainring for your desired crank/chainring size combo, you probably should. It eliminates headaches with fit and compatibility.


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

Got it. Makes me wonder what chain ring I have as it is TIGHT. I think I may just buy a new XT crank ring and XTR bottom bracket to get things done right. Less than $200 right now at Jenson.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

dhjunkie01 said:


> Hi S-works
> 
> whta was the MY of your Roval Wheels?
> As I have had exactly the same issue when tightening the rear hub on my roval Traverse SL Fattie 29. I got hte Microspline freehub with the flange and after seeing your post I have contaced DT Swiss and they have send me a ne Microspline freehub wihtout the flange
> ...


I have pretty old Roval 27.5 Traverse fatties SL's. Non-boost (hey $600 for carbon 30mm 1500 gram wheels)

https://www.eriksbikeshop.com/Roval-Roval-Traverse-SL-Fattie-650b-Wheelset/PR3E13637/Product

I also got the microspline with the flange on it, I pushed it all the way in no problem (took a little more effort than the old shimano driver), and the cassette, wheel, they are all installed. So it fits, I think?

But it feels like it might be binding like in the previous videos. When I turn the crank backwards, the wheel turns backward, and I don't recall seeing that ever.

I noticed the microspline I ordered did not come with a spring, but my old shimano one did. So I swapped it over. Wondering if I forgot a spring.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jdang307 said:


> I have this chainring. https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/race-face-narrow-wide-single-chainring/rp-prod109723
> 
> What are the signs I need too look for to be sure it's running smoothly? Obviously I need to ensure it works, and doesn't make ridiculously loud sounds. But anything else? Look for tooth marks? Just want to be sure I'm not ripping my chain up from the inside.





bigdrunk said:


> Got it. Makes me wonder what chain ring I have as it is TIGHT. I think I may just buy a new XT crank ring and XTR bottom bracket to get things done right. Less than $200 right now at Jenson.


might wanna read through this thread, esp the last post. doesn't exactly explain the issue with the wolftooth ring, but it at least presents the idea that not all narrow/wide chainrings are equal.

https://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-...ranks/rf-cinch-chainring-ok-12sp-1040358.html


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

bigdrunk said:


> Got it. Makes me wonder what chain ring I have as it is TIGHT. I think I may just buy a new XT crank ring and XTR bottom bracket to get things done right. Less than $200 right now at Jenson.


I had a Wolftooth oval that was tight a few years ago. Was fine in dry riding....but it caused me to dnf a mud race with chain suck and the chain riding up and off the teeth.
This was on 11 speed with a KMC X11sl chain
Seems to have happened to others in this forum also.
Although I have heard they fixed the issue...I haven't used their rings since then, so I can't comment on the new stuff.


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

Its definately the Wolf Tooth ring. I just checked the chain on a 5 year old (but barely used) SRAM X-Sync 11sp ring and the two meshed together really, really well.

Its all good, I am going to order a Super Boost XT crankset today which will ensure everything will work perfect.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

bigdrunk said:


> Its definately the Wolf Tooth ring. I just checked the chain on a 5 year old (but barely used) SRAM X-Sync 11sp ring and the two meshed together really, really well.
> 
> Its all good, I am going to order a Super Boost XT crankset today which will ensure everything will work perfect.


Holy crap!
I was just going to question/correct you about the XT crank and that the only difference is the chain ring offset....and then I took a look at the product page.
How much more complicated can they make cranks? 9 different SKUs for their XT single cranks???And another 6 for the double cranks? ( Not to mention not being able to get the XTR crank produced???)
I pity trying to buy used or old stock cranks in a few years and trying to figure out what spec they are.


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

Too many damn variables, that is for sure. The link below helps a ton. I will be building up a new frame next week and at least I know for sure that going with the M8130 crankset will work perfect with my XTR and superboost spaced rear end.

I don't know about you, but when I build a new bike, nothing is worse than finding out you are missing a small part you need to finish (i.e. brake hose barb), or finding out part(s) don't work forcing you to place an order.

https://productinfo.shimano.com/down...df/spec/2.9/en



the mayor said:


> Holy crap!
> I was just going to question/correct you about the XT crank and that the only difference is the chain ring offset....and then I took a look at the product page.
> How much more complicated can they make cranks? 9 different SKUs for their XT single cranks???And another 6 for the double cranks? ( Not to mention not being able to get the XTR crank produced???)
> I pity trying to buy used or old stock cranks in a few years and trying to figure out what spec they are.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

bigdrunk said:


> I don't know about you, but when I build a new bike, nothing is worse than finding out you are missing a small part you need to finish (i.e. brake hose barb), or finding out part(s) don't work forcing you to place an order.


It happens every damn time...lol
And I have lots of new parts and spares on the shelf.....but always missing that 1 little thing. ( and if I'm using a XT crank....I will be missing 1 of 15 possible cranks....JFC!)


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Part of the reason I think Race Face's CINCH system with its modularity is so brilliant that other companies (like FSA) are starting to copycat the idea is that even though it takes a bit of learning curve to figure out what'll fit your bike, the arms are all the same and you just need to work out the spindle length you need and the chainring offset. 

Now, their bb bearings are trash, their carbon could be better, and they could make improvements in a bunch of other areas, but a modular crankset that can move between wildly different frames by changing chainring offset or spindle length (or both) helps keep the arms consistent, at least.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

im now 600 miles into ownership, owned and used since the end of may brand new everything

shifting has been flawless....until now...its started to click in certain gears, ive bunged a new XT chain, and still the same, if I manage to get it quiet one end of the cassette, and it struggles to shift at the other end, ive installed a new cable and check hanger/outer etc and all good

it was so crisp and easy the first time I did it, now im worried its the actual cassette that's worn after 600miles?

setup is usual - release the cable turn the barrel adjuster 2 full rotations out, fine tune with barrel when all sorted, just will not shift perfectly like when new

any thoughts or ideas? hopefully its not the cassette worn after 600 miles


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

also - which crank (m9100 or m9120) do you use on a boost v3 santa cruz Bronson? stuggling to figure it out? they are both 1x cranks from what I can see

any help appreciated


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Didzy2009 said:


> im now 600 miles into ownership, owned and used since the end of may brand new everything
> 
> shifting has been flawless....until now...its started to click in certain gears, ive bunged a new XT chain, and still the same, if I manage to get it quiet one end of the cassette, and it struggles to shift at the other end, ive installed a new cable and check hanger/outer etc and all good
> 
> ...


i'd say its very sensitive to where you index using the high limit screw because of the low cable tension in the small cog. play around with that and it should help "align" the indexing to where it will shift precisely at both ends.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

FactoryMatt said:


> i'd say its very sensitive to where you index using the high limit screw because of the low cable tension in the small cog. play around with that and it should help "align" the indexing to where it will shift precisely at both ends.


^^^^Bingo!
With the narrow spacing of 12 speed....having everything right is much more important than it used to be. Straight hanger( I've used my alignment tool more this year than any 3 years combined), B tension, chain length, smooth cables and indexing all have to be near perfect.


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

Didzy2009 said:


> im now 600 miles into ownership, owned and used since the end of may brand new everything
> 
> shifting has been flawless....until now...its started to click in certain gears, ive bunged a new XT chain, and still the same, if I manage to get it quiet one end of the cassette, and it struggles to shift at the other end, ive installed a new cable and check hanger/outer etc and all good
> 
> ...


Hi Didzy, It sounds more like a set-up issue or cable/housing issue than a wear issue. If you haven't changed the housing, I'd do that. Changing the cable and housing is the next step once the obvious settings on the mech have been checked and the hanger has been checked. I buy Shimano SP41 housing in the 10m package.

The other thought I have is that if the original chain was worn well beyond it's service life (0.5% stretched), then that can wear out a cassette...BUT...you've only done 600 miles...so the chain should be well within service life. Peeps are getting ~800 miles from SRAM GX chains and ~1600 from SRAM X01 chains. How worn is the original chain?


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

PuddleDuck said:


> Hi Didzy, It sounds more like a set-up issue or cable/housing issue than a wear issue. If you haven't changed the housing, I'd do that. Changing the cable and housing is the next step once the obvious settings on the mech have been checked and the hanger has been checked. I buy Shimano SP41 housing in the 10m package.
> 
> The other thought I have is that if the original chain was worn well beyond it's service life (0.5% stretched), then that can wear out a cassette...BUT...you've only done 600 miles...so the chain should be well within service life. Peeps are getting ~800 miles from SRAM GX chains and ~1600 from SRAM X01 chains. How worn is the original chain?


hey bud, yeh im hoping its not kaput after 600 miles, not much mileage at all, its not as smooth as new that's for sure, I thought putting a new chain on would just make it all feel almost new, but not the case sadly, I have changed inner, not outer, but that was new 600 miles ago when I got it, the new cable went through fine though, not kinks or nicks and the old cable came out clean and not rusty or anything

also is any one running just a normal ABsolute black oval ring with full xtr chain? sadly I haven't got the cranks and ive got a sram chainset I want to use, but no proper shimano AB ring for that yet, would the standard absolute black ring work with a xtr chain and sram Powerlink?


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

FactoryMatt said:


> i'd say its very sensitive to where you index using the high limit screw because of the low cable tension in the small cog. play around with that and it should help "align" the indexing to where it will shift precisely at both ends.


hey man thanks for that tip, I will pay attention to it when I go to do it again soon, so your saying the smallest cog adjustment needs to be a bit further inward (towards the 2nd smallest cog) rather than being out as far as it probably is?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Didzy2009 said:


> ...I have changed inner, not outer, but that was new 600 miles ago when I got it, the new cable went through fine though, not kinks or nicks and the old cable came out clean and not rusty or anything


You really should change them both, with the problems you're describing that's the first thing I'd do.

The high limit screw only affects the shift from the second smallest to the smallest cog.


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## brex17 (Jan 31, 2019)

Didzy2009 said:


> ...also is any one running just a normal ABsolute black oval ring with full xtr chain? sadly I haven't got the cranks and ive got a sram chainset I want to use, but no proper shimano AB ring for that yet, would the standard absolute black ring work with a xtr chain and sram Powerlink?


Yes, I built son's bike up with XTR shifter, derailleur, cassette, chain and an XX1 crankset with an AB oval using the Eagle quick link.
He has somewhere around 1200 miles on the setup now with zero issues.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

brex17 said:


> Yes, I built son's bike up with XTR shifter, derailleur, cassette, chain and an XX1 crankset with an AB oval using the Eagle quick link.
> He has somewhere around 1200 miles on the setup now with zero issues.


bloody awesome! cheers for that, so no issues at all? excessive wear or noise? just normal and doesn't affect the amazing shifting of xtr 12 speed?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Didzy2009 said:


> bloody awesome! cheers for that, so no issues at all? excessive wear or noise? just normal and doesn't affect the amazing shifting of xtr 12 speed?


I'm using an Eagle quick link on my XTR chain, too. Using a steel race face chainring. works fine. chainring teeth fit the chain a TINY bit more snugly than the wolftooth ring designed to work with the stupid Shimano quick link, but I've had no negative impacts to performance.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Harold said:


> I'm using an Eagle quick link on my XTR chain, too. Using a steel race face chainring. works fine. chainring teeth fit the chain a TINY bit more snugly than the wolftooth ring designed to work with the stupid Shimano quick link, but I've had no negative impacts to performance.


awesome thanks for the repsonses guys, just ordered a new AB oval for my sram cranks and xtr chain with a new powerlock sram link 

thanks again


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Great, I had just come searching to see if I can use my existing XX1 crankset with the new XTR mini groupset I bought over the weekend. Love learning about the Eagle Quicklink trick!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm running the XT 12sp, works great, no issues with shifting, backpedals like magic in all gears, so much better than Eagle, BUT, it makes this wierd rubbing/grinding sort of noise.

The noise is only under heavy torque, worsens gradually as I move into the largest cogs UNTIL I shift into the 51t cog at which point it stops. No noise when pedaling in the smallest cogs.

Pulleys are not out of sync tooth wise as can happen on Eagle.
Chain is not contacting tire, chainstay, etc...
Good clearance between cassette and derailleur
Chain length is correct
Shifts well up and down in all gears
Backpedals fine in all gears WITHOUT this noise
Drop out is straight.
No derailleur adjustment has changed the noise

Previous drivetrain GX 11sp with E13 cassette, no issues, though it had gotten more finicky with age.

XT Shifter, XT Depailleur, XT Chain, Shimano Microspline Driver, DT Swiss 350 hub, SRAM GX Eagle Chainring. GG Shredd Dogg 423mm chainstays.

I expect that this is the chain rubbing on the adjacent dogs, but that should be a problem ....

Short chainstays can aggravet chain angle issues...

Anyone else had this problem?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm running the XT 12sp, works great, no issues with shifting, backpedals like magic in all gears, so much better than Eagle, BUT, it makes this wierd rubbing/grinding sort of noise.


Do you have the little paper-thin plastic washer behind the cassette? My cassette didn't come with one. Was dead quiet at first, but got noisy AF under high torque after I got a few miles on it. Got some of the spacers and noise went away.


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## brex17 (Jan 31, 2019)

Does your cassette have the clear plastic spacer? If so, you may just need to remove cassette, clean splines, regrease and reinstall cassette. If not, get that spacer and clean/grease when you install it.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Just to be sure, if I get one of the HG+ chain rings designed for SRAM direct mount like these then I can use the Shimano link?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Umm, what spacer?

So I got everything direct, the cassettes didn't come with anything like a spacer that goes between the cassette and driver. I have two wheelsets, so two cassettes.

Driver interface is well greated, hubs were cleaned and regreased before installing the new drivers.

So I need a couple of these washers .... okay, I'm on the search.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> So I need a couple of these washers .... okay, I'm on the search.


Please share the source when you find... I bought my cassette out of dealer stock yesterday and it didnt include this space either!


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## brex17 (Jan 31, 2019)

I have one wheel/cassette with the spacer and one without. The one without my son was complaining about funny noises until I removed it and greased the cassette/splines. He hasn't heard it since, but if it comes back I will put the spacer on. The wheel/cassette with the spacer hasn't ever made the noise. It is a very thin, clear plastic spacer.


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

Harold said:


> Do you have the little paper-thin plastic washer behind the cassette? My cassette didn't come with one. Was dead quiet at first, but got noisy AF under high torque after I got a few miles on it. Got some of the spacers and noise went away.


Could it be that the XT cassette doesn't need the washer?? You'd hope that Shimano would have learned to put the spacer in the box by now!!


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

According to a poster in the thread below, the spacer comes pre-installed on XT & SLX cassette's.

Just found this on another thread - https://forums.mtbr.com/shimano/12-speed-xtr-cassette-spacer-1094355.html

"_the new cassettes (ICSM9100A) it comes pre-installed. Its held in place with a small amount of something sticky... if you look closely at the back of the cassette you can see it has a slight 'shine' to it that looks plastic.

This applies to the CSM8100 and CS7100 cassettes that have just been announced. _"

Although Shimano's exploded diagram doesn't show a spacer....
https://si.shimano.com/#/en/iEV/CS-M8100

View attachment EV-CS-M8100-4507.pdf


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

My M9100 cassette did not come with the spacer. I bought a pack of something like 10 of them from my LBS for a buck.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Guys - admittedly, I have not read this entire thread, 

If I might cut to the chase and ask a quick question please...

I hate my XO Eagle drivetrain. It's the worst drivetrain I can recall in over 25 years of biking. In fact, I can't recall a drivetrain I have ever been upset about, apart from this POS.

Any reason for me to not dump it and go XT? I am running DT 240s so all good with the driver swap.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

that's hilarious. what's going on with the XO? just curious. 

no reason at all. it's pretty solid stuff. i've still got an issue with shift overtravel dropping down to the 16T though.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

FactoryMatt said:


> that's hilarious. what's going on with the XO? just curious.
> 
> no reason at all. it's pretty solid stuff. i've still got an issue with shift overtravel dropping down to the 16T though.


Lots of issues (including bent rear derailleurs) but primarily, I need the lower gears to climb the terrain I ride. At least 50% of the time, the chain does not fully engage with the cassette until I am able to do 1 to 2, 100% torque-free, full revolutions on the crank. God help me if I lay even the slightest bit of torque down before that.

All my riding buddies have the exact same experience.

After years of giving my daughter crap when she shifts under torque, she is now making me eat my words.

My 11 speed XT drivetrain on my Honzo is light years more enjoyable to ride. And don't get me going on the 8020s vs Guide Ultimates...


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Lots of issues (including bent rear derailleurs) but primarily, I need the lower gears to climb the terrain I ride. At least 50% of the time, the chain does not fully engage with the cassette until I am able to do 1 to 2, 100% torque-free, full revolutions on the crank. God help me if I lay even the slightest bit of torque down before that.
> 
> All my riding buddies have the exact same experience.
> 
> ...


No such probs w shimano 12 and really quick engagement. Grind away.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Guys - admittedly, I have not read this entire thread,
> 
> If I might cut to the chase and ask a quick question please...
> 
> ...


Obviously this is just a suggestion. 
My 4 years old SRAM top of the line 11S is just the greatest i ever used and i am 61. Here with 50T it is just asking for trouble the chain picks up stuff.
My 10-42 is similar to the 10-50, well with the 50 absent.
With a 32 you have similar ratios to mine with a 28 front except the top speed.
Just get a 20S if 11 is not wide enough.
My fat climbs, with 36,22 and 11-42 i get 22-42 Cassettes and chains are affordable, trouble free.
From a simple guy who pedals daily, no fuss.
KISS.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

33red said:


> Obviously this is just a suggestion.
> My 4 years old SRAM top of the line 11S is just the greatest i ever used and i am 61. Here with 50T it is just asking for trouble the chain picks up stuff.
> My 10-42 is similar to the 10-50, well with the 50 absent.
> With a 32 you have similar ratios to mine with a 28 front except the top speed.
> ...


I feel sadly ignorant having no idea what you are suggesting.

I will say though that my 11 speed XX1 10-42 drivetrain I had a couple of bikes ago may have been the BEST drivetrain I have had in my life. So I am not bashing SRAM.

I am not brand loyal. I look for the best. It just so happens that my XO Eagle drivetrain, that everyone else seems to swoon over, is absolute crap for someone who actually puts serious mileage on their drivetrain. The one on my bike, at least. Maybe I got a bad component. No idea. All I know is that everyone I know with an Eagle drivetrain has bent more than one d, and has had the "hovering chain syndrome" for their lower gears since Day 1, and no adjustment of the B screw using the B-gap adjustment tool, or any other fiddling, has been able to solve all the continual bullshit.

The 11 speed XT drivetrain on my Honzo, in comparison, is awesome.

I am almost tempted to blow off the 12 speed Shimano offerings and throw another Shimano 11 speed on my Druid. With a 30 tooth ring and the 10-46 cassette, I have more than enough range to ride pretty much anything I have in my neck of the woods. And yes, also contrary to popular opinion, I really like the 10-46 cassette.

All that said, yeah - I just can't seem to pass up trying a new 12 speed offering from Shimano. I am going to do that. The question becomes XTR or XT. Life is short. I will likely go with the XTR, unless I read of any issues with doing so. I even have a buyer for my XO Eagle drivetrain.

Which brings me to my final question - I assume you guys are all in favour of sticking with a Shimano crank, correct? I have been using RaceFace cranks the last 5 or so bikes with great luck (Turbines and Next R). I would like to stick with them but not if it will compromise things overall.

Thanks for reading all this.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

Well...the bent derailleurs comes from the long cage used by both SRAM and Shimano 12 speed, they are within mm of each other. Also, materials used by GX seem to be softer than others, which causes them to get ruined pretty easily. 
I have both Eagle GX and X01 and both work fine, with the occasional chain-riding-on-top-of-42t-or-51t cog. Not a deal breaker but it makes it feel...unrefined?
Shimano 12 speed needs the chain to make a "slight" difference in shifting, it's as finicky on setup because of the really tight tolerances on everything 12s. Up-shifting is a bit quieter on Shimano, noticeable in the middle of the cassette. Seem to be sensitive to chainring, some use the sram quick link. I use it with Shimano quick link and Woolf Tooth oval chainring and seems to be ok.
I still have 11 speed in use on three bikes and 11 speed with 11-46t cassette is a smooth drivetrain, nothing wrong with it.
BTW I don't plan to install 12 speed on any 27.5 wheel bike any time soon, derailleur cage has about 2 inches of ground clearance in the least favorable position.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mtnbkrmike said:


> All that said, yeah - I just can't seem to pass up trying a new 12 speed offering from Shimano. I am going to do that. The question becomes XTR or XT. Life is short. I will likely go with the XTR, unless I read of any issues with doing so. I even have a buyer for my XO Eagle drivetrain.
> 
> Which brings me to my final question - I assume you guys are all in favour of sticking with a Shimano crank, correct? I have been using RaceFace cranks the last 5 or so bikes with great luck (Turbines and Next R). I would like to stick with them but not if it will compromise things overall.


Figure out how you want the drivetrain set up before buying any bits. The reason I say this is because there are some different options in different groups.

For one, the 10-45 cassette and GS cage RD is only available in XTR. If you want 10-51, then your options widen up more.

Also chainring size. You're totally good with most cranks if you want 30t or bigger. If you want 28t or smaller, you have to mix things up a bit. The only company making a 28t chainring compatible with the Shimano 12spd chain & quick link is Shimano. IIRC, the XT crank can be bought with it. But XTR cannot (of course, it'll fit on an XTR crank if you buy it separately). Apparently Shimano's new cranks are a little funny with different spindle lengths for spacing issues (std, boost, super boost, etc) and q factors and such. Not all of the options are available for every trim level (for example, IIRC, no super boost for xtr).

You can use any 'ol NW chainring, though, if you're willing to use an Eagle quick link. I was using a 30t Wolftooth ring for awhile on my bike, but found the gearing a touch too high. I wanted a 28t chainring, but since nobody makes a HG+ compatible one for CINCH cranks, I had to use a regular 28t NW and change over to Eagle quick links. It works, but I'm pissed that I had to get weird just to change chainring sizes.

I'm having pretty good results on my M9100 group. I'm on a 10-45 cassette with GS cage RD for clearance (and because I just don't need the range of a 10-51). Hence the 28t chainring, to get low end gearing where I want it. Shifter is pretty firm to start with, but it does loosen up and smooth out as it breaks in. You can count me as another person who likes SRAM 11spd a lot, but is not impressed with Eagle.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

PuddleDuck said:


> According to a poster in the thread below, the spacer comes pre-installed on XT & SLX cassette's.
> 
> Just found this on another thread - https://forums.mtbr.com/shimano/12-speed-xtr-cassette-spacer-1094355.html
> 
> ...


I stopped by the store where I had bought my XTR cassette and they finally tracked down the missing washer. Apparently these are in short supply. I will pick it up later this week when I have time to swing by the store and take some pictures and measurements so we can source substitutes...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

backinmysaddle said:


> Apparently these are in short supply.


Maybe I should charge $5/ea for the 9 extras I paid $0.10/ea for.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

33red said:


> Obviously this is just a suggestion.
> My 4 years old SRAM top of the line 11S is just the greatest i ever used and i am 61. Blah blah blah....


Let me guess.....
It's the only drive train you've ever used.
Ignorance is bliss.
BLISS on....


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

Harold said:


> . The only company making a 28t chainring compatible with the Shimano 12spd chain & quick link is Shimano.


Hi Harold,

Garbaruk makes shimano 12sp only chainrings. They go down to 28 teeth, and are direct mount for the new Shimano cranks, available in oval and round. They can be purchased via eg. r2-bike, as well as directly from Garbaruk for USD63.

A few peeps have some issues with their HG cassette's. I've heard nothing but praise for their chainrings.

https://www.garbaruk.com/shimano-m9100-round.html
Chainline is 49.5mm (noting that Shimano's chainlines start at 52/53mm)

https://www.garbaruk.com/shimano-m9100-oval.html
Chainline varies with number of teeth.

:thumbsup:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

PuddleDuck said:


> Garbaruk makes shimano 12sp only chainrings. They go down to 28 teeth, and are direct mount for the new Shimano cranks, available in oval and round. They can be purchased via eg. r2-bike, as well as directly from Garbaruk for USD63.


I have Race Face cranks. So Shimano isn't the only one making 28t rings, but none of them are available for Race Face, so still doesn't help. Garbaruk doesn't make it clear if their other chainrings play nice with HG+ chains or not.


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## Shadow4eva (Jul 11, 2017)

Harold said:


> I have Race Face cranks. So Shimano isn't the only one making 28t rings, but none of them are available for Race Face, so still doesn't help. Garbaruk doesn't make it clear if their other chainrings play nice with HG+ chains or not.


WolfTooth makes HG+ compatible chainrings for RaceFace CINCH cranks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Shadow4eva said:


> WolfTooth makes HG+ compatible chainrings for RaceFace CINCH cranks
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I feel like I'm in an echo chamber.

I have a 30t Wolftooth ring. It's a touch too big. I want 28t chainring that just works without any hacks or compromises. To use a 28t chainring, I have had to use one not compatible with the shimano quick link and do the eagle quick link hack to make it work. It works, but the fact that I've had to do this hack on what's probably a $5,000+ bike pisses me off.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

backinmysaddle said:


> I stopped by the store where I had bought my XTR cassette and they finally tracked down the missing washer. Apparently these are in short supply. I will pick it up later this week when I have time to swing by the store and take some pictures and measurements so we can source substitutes...


Both versions of that spacer are at the 2:00 minute mark here


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## Shadow4eva (Jul 11, 2017)

Harold said:


> I feel like I'm in an echo chamber.
> 
> I have a 30t Wolftooth ring. It's a touch too big. I want 28t chainring that just works without any hacks or compromises. To use a 28t chainring, I have had to use one not compatible with the shimano quick link and do the eagle quick link hack to make it work. It works, but the fact that I've had to do this hack on what's probably a $5,000+ bike pisses me off.


Allow me to rephrase: WolfTooth makes chainrings for RaceFace CINCH cranks that are designed for shimano 12spd HG+ chain









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Shadow4eva said:


> Allow me to rephrase: WolfTooth makes chainrings for RaceFace CINCH cranks that are designed for shimano 12spd HG+ chain


Let me say it again (what is this, now the 10th time?). I own one in 30t. Too big. I want 28t. Nobody makes a 28t for HG+ chains and CINCH cranks.


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## Shadow4eva (Jul 11, 2017)

Harold said:


> Let me say it again (what is this, now the 10th time?). I own one in 30t. Too big. I want 28t. Nobody makes a 28t for HG+ chains and CINCH cranks.


Ohhhhh! I'm so sorry, it's 11:30pm over here in my side of the world, my brain must have been running on half power only 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Harold said:


> Let me say it again (what is this, now the 10th time?). I own one in 30t. Too big. I want 28t. Nobody makes a 28t for HG+ chains and CINCH cranks.


Hahahaha! MTBR never fails to amaze, right?
This is why I walk away from threads when the same question or wrong answer gets repeated.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Guys - admittedly, I have not read this entire thread,
> 
> If I might cut to the chase and ask a quick question please...
> 
> ...


Dump it and run away! Seriously, I tried Eagle, had been a SRAM fan for 10sp and 11sp up that point, it sucked so bad, all I can say is "one and done".

Shimano was slow to the draw, but they didn't miss.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> Let me say it again (what is this, now the 10th time?). I own one in 30t. Too big. I want 28t. Nobody makes a 28t for HG+ chains and CINCH cranks.


Well duhuh, you got the wrong cranks!

Sorry for your pain, I got SRAM GX Eagle, SRAM has chainrings down to 26t.

But seriously, do you really have to have an HG+ chainring for Shimano 12sp? Mine is okay with Eagle, so I guess that means it's okay with HG+.

Question: The Shimano 12sp chain quick link is directional, but is the chain also directinal? I'm looking for possible drivetrain noise causes...


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> Question: The Shimano 12sp chain quick link is directional, but is the chain also directinal? I'm looking for possible drivetrain noise causes...


They have been in the past. Instruction always say for lettering to face outward.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Harold said:


> Let me say it again (what is this, now the 10th time?). I own one in 30t. Too big. I want 28t. Nobody makes a 28t for HG+ chains and CINCH cranks.


I need a 30 so all good (I think).


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Ok, so the Sram quick link is working with my XT setup and 104bcd GXP cranks, and Raceface 30t 10 speed chainring. At least it works on the bike stand which is a start.

However, when I go to tighten the rear wheel, if it's anything other than barely hand tight, there is a lot of stiction, and if I tighten it down, the cassette will not spin freely backwards. Meaning, I can't backpedal/coast. I have Roval Traverse SL Fatties. The microspline I bought fit without having to trim the flange, but is this the issue? Is there a fix?

Reading back, it looks like I need to machine the flange down? How on earth do I that without access to a machine shop or knowing anyone with a lathe/drill press etc.? My goodness.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Well duhuh, you got the wrong cranks!
> 
> Sorry for your pain, I got SRAM GX Eagle, SRAM has chainrings down to 26t.
> 
> ...


Considering that when I bought my crank, Shimano had NO cranks available, it puts a crimp in that assessment. They also didn't have a 28t chainring until months after I had started riding the bike (release of the 12spd XT).

The full HG+ chain (with HG+ quick link) requires a compatible chainring. The quick link will ride on top of the chainring otherwise. If MIGHT work if the chainring is sufficiently worn already. You can make a non-HG+ chainring work by using an Eagle quick link instead of the stupid Shimano one. I am more than a little bitter about the aftermarket manufacturers refusing to offer a 28t HG+ chainring for RF CINCH cranks. At this point, OneUp is the only company who hasn't outright refused, but their HG+ chainrings are quite a ways off. I tried to tough out the 30t chainring, but I was just blowing up too early on big climbs with it.

Yes, the HG+ chain is directional.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

Thinking through keeping my SRAM XX1 crank, the local shop told me the main benefit of HG+ is the rear shifting. They said if I have the XTR chain (even w Eagle link) plus dreailieur plus cassette I will get that. They shrugged when I asked what benefit I get from an HG+ compatible chain ring up front. They ask "does the chain drop much on you now? If not you probably wont notice a difference." 

Anyone care to disagree on that guidance?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

backinmysaddle said:


> Thinking through keeping my SRAM XX1 crank, the local shop told me the main benefit of HG+ is the rear shifting. They said if I have the XTR chain (even w Eagle link) plus dreailieur plus cassette I will get that. They shrugged when I asked what benefit I get from an HG+ compatible chain ring up front. They ask "does the chain drop much on you now? If not you probably wont notice a difference."
> 
> Anyone care to disagree on that guidance?


chain drop? not part of the question at all.

The answer is that an HG+ compatible chainring lets you use the full HG+ chain (with the included quick link) without spending more to buy an Eagle quick link (and essentially throwing the Shimano one in the trash). That's pretty much it. I have absolutely no idea why Shimano made the decisions it did to force this "new" NW chainring standard. That has never been explained anywhere I've seen.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Harold said:


> ...The answer is that an HG+ compatible chainring lets you use the full HG+ chain (with the included quick link) without spending more to buy an Eagle quick link (and essentially throwing the Shimano one in the trash). That's pretty much it. I have absolutely no idea why Shimano made the decisions it did to force this "new" NW chainring standard. That has never been explained anywhere I've seen.


I'm never going to use the stupid Shimano quicklink, until they redesign it and it is a correct match to the rest of the chain. The Eagle quick link is very close to what the Shimano quick link should be, so I am going to keep using Eagle quick links, even on a Shimano HG+ front ring. Because this is a stupid situation that Shimano created, and I am going to keep calling them out for it, despite the zero f^<ks they give about my opinion on this. I can't believe the only reason the HG+ rings are narrow enough to accept their craptastic quick link is so they could save on that one extra process in making them.

This is far from the first time over the ages I have questioned a Shimano decision, but it is one of the most pointlessly idiotic ones.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

I just got my new XTR shifter and have realized that the matchmaker problem solver thingy I had doesn’t work for attaching the new shifter to sram guides. Does Shimano just make a simple ring I can use next to the brake to attach the new shifter like we used to do before we cared about having everything mounted together ;-). What are my options here other than buying a new set of XTR brakes?

Edited to add: i can answer... it looks like if you want to strap your xtr shifter to the bars with its own bracket then you need this $50 part from Shimano. Looks like it requires a different cover for the shifter. Love Universal Cycles, they found the part in 5 minutes with me on the phone and then said “thanks, its on the site now.”
https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=83467


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Guys - one final question...

XT vs XTR?

Thanks.

Edit: nvm. I read endless reviews last night on XTR vs XT vs SLX. All of them were 100% consistent. We as bikers live in good times.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

SLX = working stiff, professional with kids, etc...
XT = professionals, DINKS, comfortably retired, etc...
XTR = Dentists, DotCom CEO, Narcisicts 

But seriously, unless you can afford XTR without blinking an eye, the XT stuff is solid.



mtnbkrmike said:


> Guys - one final question...
> 
> XT vs XTR?
> 
> ...


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> SLX = working stiff, professional with kids, etc...
> XT = professionals, DINKS, comfortably retired, etc...
> XTR = Dentists, DotCom CEO, Narcisicts
> 
> But seriously, unless you can afford XTR without blinking an eye, the XT stuff is solid.


or you have a gift certificate, 20% of BC.com and Active Junky discount to being XTR down to less than SLX.....the we "professionals" can afford XTR and feel like a dentist


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So you have a Microspline driver designed for your hub? I don't understand why it would need to be modified, it's a driver, so if it fits the hub then it will work in any frame that has the correct hub spacing.

If you can't spin the cassette with the axle tight, look at whether the cassette is clearing the spokes; you may need a cassette spacer. Spacers are common, they come in all thicknesses, get the thinnest that'll allow the freewheel to spin freely, Hope, I9, and Onyx require spacers in some instances depending on cassette and wheel build.



jdang307 said:


> Ok, so the Sram quick link is working with my XT setup and 104bcd GXP cranks, and Raceface 30t 10 speed chainring. At least it works on the bike stand which is a start.
> 
> However, when I go to tighten the rear wheel, if it's anything other than barely hand tight, there is a lot of stiction, and if I tighten it down, the cassette will not spin freely backwards. Meaning, I can't backpedal/coast. I have Roval Traverse SL Fatties. The microspline I bought fit without having to trim the flange, but is this the issue? Is there a fix?
> 
> Reading back, it looks like I need to machine the flange down? How on earth do I that without access to a machine shop or knowing anyone with a lathe/drill press etc.? My goodness.


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## Skarhead (Mar 15, 2018)

Does AB specific chainring for shimano 12 speed work good with the new shimano quicklink?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> SLX = working stiff, professional with kids, etc...
> XT = professionals, DINKS, comfortably retired, etc...
> XTR = Dentists, DotCom CEO, Narcisicts
> 
> But seriously, unless you can afford XTR without blinking an eye, the XT stuff is solid.


There are a couple cases with the new Shimano 12spd stuff where certain things are only available at a certain component level. For example - 10-45 cassette is XTR only. GS derailleur cage is XTR only. XT has more chainline options for the crank for bikes with different hub spacings and chainline requirements like superboost and whatnot. 28t chainring isn't equipped on XTR cranks out of the box (though it'll fit on them if you buy one aftermarket, you just can't buy it that way). Then there's the whole multi-release and instant-release variations between SLX, XT, and XTR that have always existed. Not quite on the same level as some of the other things, but they're there nevertheless.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> So you have a Microspline driver designed for your hub? I don't understand why it would need to be modified, it's a driver, so if it fits the hub then it will work in any frame that has the correct hub spacing.
> 
> If you can't spin the cassette with the axle tight, look at whether the cassette is clearing the spokes; you may need a cassette spacer. Spacers are common, they come in all thicknesses, get the thinnest that'll allow the freewheel to spin freely, Hope, I9, and Onyx require spacers in some instances depending on cassette and wheel build.


You have to read through the whole thread, but awhile back a number of people who bought the regular DT Swiss microspline freehub body (not specifically made for Roval hubs) had to modify it to make it fit. Because the Roval wheels are just a little bit different on freehub body fit than regular DT hubs.

I don't know what the situation is now, whether there is a specific Roval-compatible FHB available or not. But at least when people were first doing it, the FHB was NOT specifically designed for Roval hubs and that's why it needed to be modified.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I need to my chainring. I'm currently running XX1 11-speed, but I eventually want to upgrade to Shimano 12-speed, so I'm thinking of buying a Shimano 12-speed compatible chainring. Will this work with a SRAM 11-speed chain? I'm thinking that the tooth profile is probably optimized for the Shimano HG+ chain, so I'm also wondering if I can run the Shimano HG+ chain with my 11-speed SRAM cassette. I'm just trying to avoid buying a new chainring now and another one when I switch to Shimano 12-speed.


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## dhjunkie01 (Apr 30, 2019)

why would you need to buy a shimano 12speed compatible chainring? I am running an Race Face Narrow/Wide chanring, which I was using pirot XTR with SRamm11s and 12s eagle and now with full XTR12 speed drivetrain, incl. the Shimano 12 chain. And is working without any problems.
The most important thing on the XTR 12 si really the chain. A ihave tried with Sram chain and was not workign that well. So bought the Shimano chain, added SRAM quick link and is workign wihtotu any issue.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

jabrabu said:


> I need to my chainring. I'm currently running XX1 11-speed, but I eventually want to upgrade to Shimano 12-speed, so I'm thinking of buying a Shimano 12-speed compatible chainring. Will this work with a SRAM 11-speed chain? I'm thinking that the tooth profile is probably optimized for the Shimano HG+ chain, so I'm also wondering if I can run the Shimano HG+ chain with my 11-speed SRAM cassette. I'm just trying to avoid buying a new chainring now and another one when I switch to Shimano 12-speed.


11/12sp chainrings are the same, probably 10sp as well. Maybe there is some funkiness with "best fit", but I have no issues using a SRAM Eagle chainring with SRAM 11sp or Shimano 12 sp.


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## Twilight70 (May 24, 2019)

Harold said:


> I feel like I'm in an echo chamber.
> 
> I have a 30t Wolftooth ring. It's a touch too big. I want 28t chainring that just works without any hacks or compromises. To use a 28t chainring, I have had to use one not compatible with the shimano quick link and do the eagle quick link hack to make it work. It works, but the fact that I've had to do this hack on what's probably a $5,000+ bike pisses me off.


Hey man, I run Garbaruk Melon Boost 28T CINCH w/ a XTR chain and the supplied quick link and it work. It's a bit noisy at the extreme ends but dead silent in the middle, and the quick link doesn't grab the ring tooth. If you look closely at how Garbaruk implemented the narrow/wide, it's a LOT different than how WT, OneUp, and RF did their "wide" portion.

Caveat, they're so small a company they run out of stock everywhere very quickly. Best source besides directly from Garbaruk is Bike24.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> 11/12sp chainrings are the same, probably 10sp as well. Maybe there is some funkiness with "best fit", but I have no issues using a SRAM Eagle chainring with SRAM 11sp or Shimano 12 sp.


shimano 12spd chainrings are NOT the same. SRAM Eagle (the ones made by SRAM for their cranks) rings are different enough that they probably interface differently than all of the other aftermarket N/W rings that are listed as 11/12spd compatible (but not with Shimano 12).

That said, the problem is the Shimano quick link. Use an Eagle quick link and chainrings aren't a problem.



Twilight70 said:


> Hey man, I run Garbaruk Melon Boost 28T CINCH w/ a XTR chain and the supplied quick link and it work. It's a bit noisy at the extreme ends but dead silent in the middle, and the quick link doesn't grab the ring tooth. If you look closely at how Garbaruk implemented the narrow/wide, it's a LOT different than how WT, OneUp, and RF did their "wide" portion.
> 
> Caveat, they're so small a company they run out of stock everywhere very quickly. Best source besides directly from Garbaruk is Bike24.


Garbaruk themselves doesn't guarantee Shimano 12spd compatibility. The pain with ordering their stuff just means that there are easier (and cheaper) solutions. Which I addressed weeks ago in this thread and repeated over and over and over again.


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## Twilight70 (May 24, 2019)

Harold said:


> Garbaruk themselves doesn't guarantee Shimano 12spd compatibility. The pain with ordering their stuff just means that there are easier (and cheaper) solutions. Which I addressed weeks ago in this thread and repeated over and over and over again.


Understood.
However, my claim is from anecdotal experience. I actually had a new Shimano chain and a brand new Garbaruk ring to test before I mounted it on my bike and confirm compatibility. 
That said, the Eagle quick link solution is beyond easy and I'll be going to that even w/ a Garbaruk ring...because I have a handful of the Eagle links in packaging still floating around.

One last: 
KA Engineering ring doesn't seem to play well w/ Shimano chain using their quick link. I have not tried w/ an Eagle quick link.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Anyone getting weird noise coming from their rear cassette or Shimano hubs when putting down power uphill? At first I thought it was my spoke rubbing but I'm pretty sure its my cassette as I get the noise when I sit on my rear brake and push on the cranks. 

I've tightened my cassette ring already.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

did you install the clear shim behind the cassette? if not, this is where the creak is coming from.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Anyone getting weird noise coming from their rear cassette or Shimano hubs when putting down power uphill? At first I thought it was my spoke rubbing but I'm pretty sure its my cassette as I get the noise when I sit on my rear brake and push on the cranks.
> 
> I've tightened my cassette ring already.


I have the same thing and found that greasing the freehub body helps.
I also found using a good torque wrench on the cassette helps.
I have ran the cassette with and without the little thin plastic piece.....I could get the cogs to squeak like loose spokes either way.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

the mayor said:


> I have ran the cassette with and without the little thin plastic piece.....I could get the cogs to squeak like loose spokes either way.


It happened pretty quickly when I ran the cassette without the plastic spacer. Put a spacer in and the noise went away for awhile. I've heard the occasional noise on the past couple rides that makes me think it might be coming back, though. I'll be paying attention to it, for sure. For me, the noise would only show up when I was really putting down power, which for me typically only happens when I'm climbing something really steep, and I'm in the granny. I'd notice it progressively get quieter as my power output dropped bit by bit. If I had a power meter, I'm sure I could tell you exactly how much power it took. It was that consistent. We'll see now that I'm using the little spacer. If it turns out to be the cassette again, I guess I'll just have to remove it, clean the splines, and put a little grease on the freehub body. And I guess actually put my torque wrench on it. From my time in the shop, the method for cassette lockrings was always just "wail on the mofo" with a wrench until it's tight.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

I have an XT crankset, 1x boost, 12 speed, model 8120. 170mm. Used 5 rides with crank boots on, though there are some scratches on the top of one of the arms (the side that connects with the BB spindle. I tried them as I have ridden 175s....forever. And the 170s just didn't give me the leverage I am used to. $100 shipped, no chainring. For pics and info, PM me.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

I received the $56 XTR shifter cover replacement that works with its own clamp. Swapped it out with the I-spec EV cover that came stock and am all ready to install the groupset now.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

anyone running the shorter Derailleur with the 51 set up? 

anyone know if they plan to release the 11 speed?? 

thanks


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

11-Speed is cancelled. 
I tried short cage with 51 but didn’t find it good.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

TurboKoo said:


> 11-Speed is cancelled.
> I tried short cage with 51 but didn't find it good.


thank you sir


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

I finally got my 12 speed XTR group set installed yesterday and did a 10 mile ride with it in the evening. I am really impressed with it! Granted I am replacing a three-year-old SRAM I finally got my 12 speed XTR group set installed yesterday and did a 10 mile ride with it in the evening. I am really impressed with it! Granted I am replacing a three year old SRAM xx1 Set up, so I should expect better performance with anything new. I really like the heavy clunking feeling each shift, and I’m impressed with shifting under load while climbing. I really like the first three years when paired with a 32 tea chain ring, despite everybody saying those are big jumps, they wind up being really nice options on steeps. I’ve got this set up with a sr XX1 crank sad and just use the eagle master link and as reported elsewhere that works fine.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

just curios on the new xtr chain, are you guys de-greasing it new and putting your favorite oil on it, or just running it the way it is first ??


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Dave Mac said:


> just curios on the new xtr chain, are you guys de-greasing it new and putting your favorite oil on it, or just running it the way it is first ??


I always strip that sticky goo off of shimano chains and lube with whatever is my choice. That goopy stuff shimano uses is great for preventing it from rusting in the package, but it collects dirt like nothing else I've ever seen. And unless you strip it off, your chain lube of choice won't really do much for you. Other brands put lighter lubricants on their packaged chains that don't seem to cause the same problems as what shimano uses. On those, I ride them till the factory stuff wears off, then clean and lube as usual.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

My feelings are that the factory grease is great and works fine. I normally ride with in the beginning and then later degrease completely and use wax on it. Works really well for me.


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## arthur28 (Dec 30, 2016)

Hi Gents,
I have a question about the new XTR M9100 crank.
The new XTR crank has a different axial adjustment w/o fixation.
Is this working proper without noise? 
From my RF crank, I know that I have to clean it 2 times per year.
Otherwise, I would go to this one: https://www.intend-bc.com/products/crankset/rocksteady/
Thanks for your comments! Regards, Arthur


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Harold said:


> I always strip that sticky goo off of shimano chains and lube with whatever is my choice. That goopy stuff shimano uses is great for preventing it from rusting in the package, but it collects dirt like nothing else I've ever seen. And unless you strip it off, your chain lube of choice won't really do much for you. Other brands put lighter lubricants on their packaged chains that don't seem to cause the same problems as what shimano uses. On those, I ride them till the factory stuff wears off, then clean and lube as usual.


Pretty sure that is not the case, the sticky-goo grease comes on SRAM chains. The Shimano chains come with a heavy lube, which is quite a different animal, not grease. These are not the same thing. It's very slick and I do not recommend removing it, other than wiping it down.


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

TurboKoo said:


> My feelings are that the factory grease is great and works fine. I normally ride with in the beginning and then later degrease completely and use wax on it. Works really well for me.


Same here.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

arthur28 said:


> Hi Gents,
> I have a question about the new XTR M9100 crank.
> The new XTR crank has a different axial adjustment w/o fixation.
> Is this working proper without noise?
> ...


in conjunction with a BBInfinite bottom bracket, mine has been solid. no creaks or noises. just gotta be careful not to strip the fixing bolt, because they don't sell them separately!


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## florihupf (Jan 7, 2018)

Just for someone looking for info:

Hyperglide+ Chain and OneUp Components chainrings on Switch carrier: NOT EVEN CLOSE.

At most three chain links will fit on the chain ring before the chain refuses to sink into the spaces between the tooth.



Guess need to get a wolftooth chain ring...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

florihupf said:


> Just for someone looking for info:
> 
> Hyperglide+ Chain and OneUp Components chainrings on Switch carrier: NOT EVEN CLOSE.
> 
> ...


Oneup told me quite some time ago that it'll be awhile before they have HG+ compatible rings. Are you certain that it's not just the quick link that is the problem everyone else has?


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## florihupf (Jan 7, 2018)

Thanks for the info Harold, I love the OneUp Switch thingy, glad to hear they are working on it.

And yes, it is _TOTALLY_ not the quick link. It is impossible to place the chain onto the chain ring at all. Maybe 2-3 links barley fit and the next roller will hit the tooth head on. I see to it and post a pic tonight.


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## motard5 (Apr 9, 2007)

Nurse Ben said:


> SLX = working stiff, professional with kids, etc...
> XT = professionals, DINKS, comfortably retired, etc...
> XTR = Dentists, DotCom CEO, Narcisicts


Ha this is hilarious.

A Shimano rep explained besides multigear shifts, riders shouldn't be able to differentiate performance between groups in a blind test. The differences are materials, thus weight. I'm not sure on the validity of this statement, but it's direct from Shimano, and to be honest I was a bit surprised at the transparency. SLX to XT is -100g, XT to XTR is -263g, the total spread being 364g, or 0.80lbs.

Given body weight fluctuates more per day, pairing a XTR shifter & brakes with SLX drivetrain might be the hot value ticket?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

There is already an entire story on this where a Shimano Rep went through what they thought was the combination/mix.

https://reviews.mtbr.com/whats-best-mix-of-new-shimano-xtr-xt-and-slx


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Assuming you're going to use an XT cassette anyway for durability reasons, an XT group with XTR crankset is only a handful of grams away from full XTR. Also my M9000 1x crankset weighs identical, to the gram, to the M9100 in that article. So no reason to change that.


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## sb1616ne (Feb 13, 2008)

Anyone know of any issues or changes to the first batch of XTR 10-51 cassettes? QBP has two of the "same" cassettes" one is part # ICSM9100051 and 20% off and the other is ICSM9100051A and full price. Should I snag a few of these discounted cassettes from my LBS?


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

motard5 said:


> Ha this is hilarious.
> 
> A Shimano rep explained besides multigear shifts, riders shouldn't be able to differentiate performance between groups in a blind test. The differences are materials, thus weight. I'm not sure on the validity of this statement, but it's direct from Shimano, and to be honest I was a bit surprised at the transparency. SLX to XT is -100g, XT to XTR is -263g, the total spread being 364g, or 0.80lbs.
> 
> Given body weight fluctuates more per day, pairing a XTR shifter & brakes with SLX drivetrain might be the hot value ticket?


thats fantastic thanks much, what going on witht chain specks slx cheaper and lighter??? what am I missing??


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

Dave Mac said:


> thats fantastic thanks much, what going on witht chain specks slx cheaper and lighter??? what am I missing??


That's obviously a typo lol
No way a chain is this heavy.
The XTR chain is around 242g and the XT is 254g


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

sb1616ne said:


> Anyone know of any issues or changes to the first batch of XTR 10-51 cassettes? QBP has two of the "same" cassettes" one is part # ICSM9100051 and 20% off and the other is ICSM9100051A and full price. Should I snag a few of these discounted cassettes from my LBS?


The "A" version comes with the mysterious thin plastic spacer preinstalled that seems to be missing from the box for most of the previous version cassettes, including mine. I'm not sure if there are any other differences.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

sb1616ne said:


> Anyone know of any issues or changes to the first batch of XTR 10-51 cassettes? QBP has two of the "same" cassettes" one is part # ICSM9100051 and 20% off and the other is ICSM9100051A and full price. Should I snag a few of these discounted cassettes from my LBS?


don't know specifically, but I'd bet it's related to the $0.10 (seriously, I paid $1.00 for a 10-pack from my LBS) plastic shim that none of the early xtr cassettes included (but mentioned in the instructions).


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Harold said:


> don't know specifically, but I'd bet it's related to the $0.10 (seriously, I paid $1.00 for a 10-pack from my LBS) plastic shim that none of the early xtr cassettes included (but mentioned in the instructions).


How thick and what is the hardness of that shim anyway? I still haven't got my hands on one, the place I bought my cassette from was supposed to track one down for me but that hasn't happened, and I haven't gotten around to it otherwise.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

It’s actually super thin and flexible but is there to avoid possible noice. Seems that some hubs create some noice from back of the cassette on alu spider and alu in the freehub body. 

XT and SLX have this glued from factory.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

sb1616ne said:


> Anyone know of any issues or changes to the first batch of XTR 10-51 cassettes? QBP has two of the "same" cassettes" one is part # ICSM9100051 and 20% off and the other is ICSM9100051A and full price. Should I snag a few of these discounted cassettes from my LBS?


lots of hard miles* here on the original non-A. on two different cassettes on three different bikes. they've been solid as long as you dont forget to install that clear shim.

*edited to add, i think the 16T spacing is slightly off though, as i occasionally get overtravel when shifting up to the 16t. I seem to be the only one experiencing this, but it's occurred on two cassettes on two different bikes.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Velodonata said:


> How thick and what is the hardness of that shim anyway? I still haven't got my hands on one, the place I bought my cassette from was supposed to track one down for me but that hasn't happened, and I haven't gotten around to it otherwise.


It's not hard at all. I'd say it's paper thickness at most. Probably thinner. I put my calipers on it and looks to be 0.15mm thick.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Harold said:


> It's not hard at all. I'd say it's paper thickness at most. Probably thinner. I put my calipers on it and looks to be 0.15mm thick.


Cool, thanks. I followed up with my supplier and I just got word they did finally get some and are going to send me a couple. I am getting maybe a hint of noise with only a few rides on it, so it certainly won't hurt to have it in there.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Velodonata said:


> How thick and what is the hardness of that shim anyway? I still haven't got my hands on one, the place I bought my cassette from was supposed to track one down for me but that hasn't happened, and I haven't gotten around to it otherwise.


semi-soft? feels like a lexan


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

So I have XT 12 on older Bronson, non-boost, 2015. Sram 1400 gxp cranks (64/104). Right now it's running with a raceface 30t n/w chainring. Sram quicklink, a little noisy but I'm okay with it.

Developed some knee pain after testing out a new Ibis Ripley all weekend and then went back to my bike. Don't know the cause (could be the Ripley, which only manifested after I got back on my bike, could be I rode a lot that weekend more than normal).

Anyway, severe knee pain after 6 miles now. Took two weeks off, still had pain. So I'm looking to ease it up a little. I hear Ovals might help. Also maybe easier gears for now.

My choices are limited because of the 104bcd. I can choose:

1 - WT shimano 12 speed compatible 32t oval, or
2 - AB oval Non-Shimano 12sp, 30t.

anyone using the AB non-12sp specific with no problems?

EDIT: I guess AB now has a 104bcd shimano 12sp Oval. I didn't see that a month ago, somehow I missed it.

So now it's 32 12sp specific, or 30t 12sp specific from AB.

Does the 32t oval feel similar to a round 30t? I mean, I'm rarely in my 51t I just need to use it more instead of trying to power through it (possibly causing my knee pain).


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> So you have a Microspline driver designed for your hub? I don't understand why it would need to be modified, it's a driver, so if it fits the hub then it will work in any frame that has the correct hub spacing.
> 
> If you can't spin the cassette with the axle tight, look at whether the cassette is clearing the spokes; you may need a cassette spacer. Spacers are common, they come in all thicknesses, get the thinnest that'll allow the freewheel to spin freely, Hope, I9, and Onyx require spacers in some instances depending on cassette and wheel build.


It was discussed in previous pages. But the new DT Swiss microspline adapter doesn't work with older DT swiss hubs. I have an old Roval carbon set, which apparently also uses the old dt swiss hubs. There is a slight flange that rubs with the hub.

My buddy works at some cnc/milling whatever factory. He smoothed it out for me. All good now.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

jdang307 said:


> So I have XT 12 on older Bronson, non-boost, 2015. Sram 1400 gxp cranks (64/104). Right now it's running with a raceface 30t n/w chainring. Sram quicklink, a little noisy but I'm okay with it.
> 
> Developed some knee pain after testing out a new Ibis Ripley all weekend and then went back to my bike. Don't know the cause (could be the Ripley, which only manifested after I got back on my bike, could be I rode a lot that weekend more than normal).
> 
> ...


Knee pain might be from saddle improper height.
Also too much forward or backward.
Maybe the other bike created it and a few days of will let it disappear.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jdang307 said:


> Developed some knee pain after testing out a new Ibis Ripley all weekend and then went back to my bike. Don't know the cause (could be the Ripley, which only manifested after I got back on my bike, could be I rode a lot that weekend more than normal).


Step 1: Rest until no pain
Step 2: If pain persists after resting, see doctor.
Step 3: I fail to see how drivetrain is a factor here.


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

33red said:


> Knee pain might be from saddle improper height.
> Also too much forward or backward.
> Maybe the other bike created it and a few days of will let it disappear.


This. Sudden onset knee pain from riding a different bike sounds like the bike really didn't fit you well and caused an issue, or exacerbated an issue that was just under the radar.

As background, the Ripley has a VERY steep seat tube angle that positions you way forwards relative to your Bronson..this places A LOT more load on your quads...which can be a recipe for knee pain.

You tell us that you have "sever knee pain". That's your body saying that it's really unhappy. I'd listen to it, and go and see a physical therapist to 
- understand what's going on and what's causing your pain, the root cause of the issue.
- how to treat the cause of your pain e.g. strengthen certain muscles
- get some massage done on areas that might be too tight


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

yes I am aware it may be all of that. That's why I said it might be the ripley, or fit (though I've ridden fine on the Brony for 4 years), or over use. 

But I also tend to use one gear harder than is comfy in an effort to replace my squats at the gym since I have been riding more than working out. So I'll mash the pedals and my leg movements become more up and down than round and round. Both of those may also contribute to knee pain.

I took 2 weeks off and first time back on the saddle, it returned after 6-7 miles. I have no pain walking around after. Or jumping, or air squatting. Just pedaling on my bronson, which I rode fine for 4 years with no issues. 

I realize it can be ANY of that. Bike fit on the Bronson just doesn't sound like it should be an issue because ... well I've ridden the Bronson since 2015. I've ridden tons of other bikes that don't fit me right, including an SB100, Intense Tracer, Yeti SB130 that were too large for me (my friends' bikes) for much longer rides.

So it could be any of it. So I'm in the process of elimination, and wanting to keep my gearing easier so if it is indeed me mashing on the pedals uphill I want to have easier gears just in case. We do around 20k elevation a month. Indeed, the last couple times, lowering it to the easiest gear eased the pain.

So if the AB oval that is not designed for Shimano 12sp works just fine, I'd rather get that so the easiest gear is easier than on the HG+ compatible AB oval.

Reading back, it seems others have not had an issue so I may go with that unless someone has another opinion? I wish AB made a 30t oval that is HG+ compatible.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

jdang307 said:


> yes I am aware it may be all of that. That's why I said it might be the ripley, or fit (though I've ridden fine on the Brony for 4 years), or over use.
> 
> But I also tend to use one gear harder than is comfy in an effort to replace my squats at the gym since I have been riding more than working out. So I'll mash the pedals and my leg movements become more up and down than round and round. Both of those may also contribute to knee pain.
> 
> ...


Up north(quebec) about 4-5 years ago many bought a Norco fatbike 18 speeds. To fit a wider tire they went 1 ring. To climb they went Oval. It is a bandaid for a poor transmission with not enough range. A 12 S Oval is not needed.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I just tought, if 2 weeks did not help, it might be new shoes?
new pedals?
cleat moved?
new crank arms lenght?


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## kartracer (Apr 10, 2015)

Harold said:


> Oneup told me quite some time ago that it'll be awhile before they have HG+ compatible rings. Are you certain that it's not just the quick link that is the problem everyone else has?


I've been exchanging emails with OneUp. The latest update said the Shimano HG+ 12-speed compatible Switch chainrings will be ready for sale right around the first week of November.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Quick question guys when setting up the b tension with the marking on the rear mech are you setting it up with shock fully deflated or not bothering and just doing it as normal air pressure in??? On a full suss bike of course


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Didzy2009 said:


> Quick question guys when setting up the b tension with the marking on the rear mech are you setting it up with shock fully deflated or not bothering and just doing it as normal air pressure in??? On a full suss bike of course


Complete instructions are at the link below..........

http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-MARD001-00-ENG.pdf


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

tom tom said:


> Complete instructions are at the link below..........
> 
> http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-MARD001-00-ENG.pdf


Cheers but it doesn't even mention anything other than setting it up to align the marker.. Doesn't state whether that's stationary or whether full suss or not!? Unless I'm being blind


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

Didzy2009 said:


> are you setting it up with shock fully deflated or not bothering and just doing it as normal air pressure in??? On a full suss bike of course


It would not hurt to do it like Scram GX and set it with rider sag. It only change 1 mm so its not a huge difference between sag and non sag.

I like setting B screw to where it shifts the best at its lowest possible setting.


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## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

Didzy2009 said:


> Cheers but it doesn't even mention anything other than setting it up to align the marker.. Doesn't state whether that's stationary or whether full suss or not!? Unless I'm being blind


It states that chain length is different for full suspension and hardtails and guides you to ensure you have enough chain length for your frame's chain growth.

I followed their instructions "to a T" and it works admirably on my F/S frame. (B-screw was set static, bike on the stand)


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## motard5 (Apr 9, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> thats fantastic thanks much, what going on witht chain specks slx cheaper and lighter??? what am I missing??


Sorry, looks like a mis-type:

SLX CN-M7100, 252g, $31,99 usd
XT CN-8100, 252g, $43,99 usd
XTR CN-9100, 242g, $64,99 usd


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## Matija899 (May 4, 2016)

Today I managed to brake lower part of outer cage on my rd-m9100 sgs (under the bolt). Derailleur is still working normally. It looks it’s just “beauty” failure, only lower part of lower pulley (and therefore chain on that place) is not covered or protected from outer side.

Do you think is worth replacing outer cage? Will outer cage from xt work normally or it’s better to invest in new xtr one? AFAIK only difference is materiel used, or?


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

Take a look here at the differences between the XT and XTR -


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## Matija899 (May 4, 2016)

Thanks!
Here's a photo:














Worth changing it?
If yes, I'll probably buy xt and just take outer cage from it and replaced it on xtr. Cheaper than xtr outer cage + more spare parts


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Matija899 said:


> Worth changing it?
> If yes, I'll probably buy xt and just take outer cage from it and replaced it on xtr. Cheaper than xtr outer cage + more spare parts


I would just clean up the rough edges with a Dremel and ride on. As long as the damage doesn't get any closer to the pulley bolt than it appears in the picture and the derailleur is performing normally you are good. I would consider removing the part that now forms a hook, if you are in an area where there is loose vegetation and stuff that it might grab. I think it would fill up with moss fairly quick here. If there are any other reasons you need to fix it, you will know soon enough.

Edit- OK I did miss one obvious issue, I should have had my coffee before replying, and you may be well aware of this, but the chain is not going to be retained on the jockey. Which could lead to a serious drivetrain kerfluffle. So yeah, I would buy another derailleur and consider this one spare parts for future damage. Or fix the cage, which is possible but not worth getting into working with carbon just for one component.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

Any long term experience on if the new splined hub also get those notches from the cassette?


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

Check it out here -


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mevnet said:


> Check it out here -


1:55 and 3:15 shows scoring on the microspline, but it's difficult to say how bad. Hard to imagine why shimano is still doing loose cogs down low, especially 4 on XTR and 5 on XT.

Still, hard to say how bad this is in the video, maybe not really bad. He only used it for 2 months though. I reckon in a month or two we should start to have a lot of users that have used it for approximately a year or so. Then the data should start to get a lot more reliable and indicative of whether there's a continuing issue or not.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Check the last photo on the article to see some gouging on the micro splines. It's not much but I would prefer that they were not there at all.

https://singletrackworld.com/2019/0...-shimano-micro-spline-licensing-frustrations/


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

mevnet said:


> Check it out here -


What the heck?
So the 10T cog can't fit, or will not sit directly on the new microspline hub, but holds onto the next smaller cog?
Than why even bother making a new freehub design?
They could have done this with the old HG design too by making the hub bodys lenght a little bit smaller.
And even if the microspline body has more splines this won't do any good for avoiding some gauging, right?


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

OneTrustMan said:


> So the 10T cog can't fit, or will not sit directly on the new microspline hub, but holds onto the next smaller cog?


Yes. That is the design. Pretty much the same as XD does.



> Than why even bother making a new freehub design?
> They could have done this with the old HG design too by making the hub bodys lenght a little bit smaller.


They already did, years ago on a Capreo groupset. HG freehub is designed to be made of steel - whence shallow splines and just 9 of them. Worked fine on road cassettes in 1984. On mammoth 50T mountain cassettes of 2019 - not so much.



> And even if the microspline body has more splines this won't do any good for avoiding some gauging, right?


Depends. Stamping is not a hyper-precise process so a new cog needs to seat itsself on the spline before it is held on it securely. From the pictures provided - it seems to be cosmetic only. My CK freehub with stainless steel body had such marks as well.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

This is getting long.
A resune
- more $$
- more issues


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

uzurpator said:


> Yes. That is the design. Pretty much the same as XD does.


That's not what I mean.
XD does not have splines. But if the smallest cog on a splined alloy hub isn't directly on the hub, wouldn't this put more pressure on the other outher splines?

And I agree on the rest of your answers.
We will just have to wait for at least 1 years reviews I guess.
But I still think steel is the way to go for this new design aswell. 
I had steel HG hubs and the only thing you need to watch out is rust in winter.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

OneTrustMan said:


> That's not what I mean.
> XD does not have splines. But if the smallest cog on a splined alloy hub isn't directly on the hub, wouldn't this put more pressure on the other outher splines?


The 10t has shallow external splines of a sort that seat into a matching recess on the 12t, they are both steel and once they are assembled together they are essentially one piece, directly under the lockring and engaged on the splines of the 12t to the freehub body. The same splines are taking the load from both cogs, but only one at a time so there won't be any excessive loading on the freehub. That entire stack of 4 loose cogs could be made in one piece, but that's not how Shimano has ever done it and I don't expect they are going to change now since it has worked well for them for a long time.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Also the smallest sprockets as loose is great so you can change them once worn out. This is especially important in e-bikes.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TurboKoo said:


> Also the smallest sprockets as loose is great so you can change them once worn out. This is especially important in e-bikes.


Show me where you buy these.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Jayem said:


> Show me where you buy these.


https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/shimano-xtr-csm9100-sprocket-unit-1012t-y1x498020/


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Touché. Those don’t really wear out for most of us, it’s usually the bigger gears that slip first.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Touché. Those don't really wear out for most of us, it's usually the bigger gears that slip first.


True, the new XTR does shift very smooth. But the larger cogs being softer than steel to get the weight down vs all one unit is my only turn off.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

If that’s your concern you can just use SLX cassette as that has only one alloy sprocket and rest steel.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

My xtr rear mech is almost a year old now... Has tonnes of side to side play with no chain on, my mates brand new one doesn't have this at all, so not entirely sure what's worn on it but it's very loose, and my shifting has gone pretty crappy too

I'm 6 motnhs into the xtr cassette and altho it shifts OK it's not super smooth up and down the cassette, it's hesitant in various gears and clicks in some gears

I have setup exactly the same a few times now just incase I missed something but its not the saem quality from new

I don't expect it to be though but if the mech play is causing it more so then I need to take a look at getting it warrantied 

I'm going to post a short vid of the play in the mech later today to see if you think it's normal

Will be pretty disappointed if my cassette is worn 6 months in, I swapped the chain 3 months in to make sure I didn't over use it and wear the sprockets

If the mechs buggered ill likely get a new xt mech and xt cassette hopefully then it will work like new again


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Didzy2009 said:


> My xtr rear mech is almost a year old now... Has tonnes of side to side play with no chain on, my mates brand new one doesn't have this at all, so not entirely sure what's worn on it but it's very loose, and my shifting has gone pretty crappy too
> 
> I'm 6 motnhs into the xtr cassette and altho it shifts OK it's not super smooth up and down the cassette, it's hesitant in various gears and clicks in some gears
> 
> ...


Have you been shifting under load?


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

33red said:


> Have you been shifting under load?


yeh I guess so, ive been using it as I would any other drivertrain, one of the benefits is how smooth it is under load, I cant say as that's really changed much in terms of quality, its more niggly little things like slow shifting, and clicks, and then randomly jumping on some smaller cogs when trying to shift up - again reset all numerous times so not a setup issue and ive put a new mech hanger on just to check


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

It's just the cage that have play, or it's across the entire derailleur's body?
If it's just the cage, you may have worn the seal between the cage and the derailleur's body. It's a seal but it also works as a kind of bushing and you can replace it.
For the RD-M9100 goggle Y3FA62000 -- P-Seal Ring.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

Aglo said:


> It's just the cage that have play, or it's across the entire derailleur's body?
> If it's just the cage, you may have worn the seal between the cage and the derailleur's body. It's a seal but it also works as a kind of bushing and you can replace it.
> For the RD-M9100 goggle Y3FA62000 -- P-Seal Ring.


im really not sure if its the cage, if I pull at the lower jockey wheel area of the cage, you can really feel it being loose/play, it almost feels like a screw is half loose or something

I kinda from feel think its nearer to the mech itself (around the pins that shift the spring up and down the cassette) but its really hard to tell, I believe shimano is 2 yr warranty so I will be trying my luck at that first rather than taking it all apart


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

just for refernce - cassette since brand new has done 766 miles (there abouts!) ive had 2 chains on since new....so not a huge amout of mileage, very gritty mucky riding mind including summer and probably 100k+ vertical feet climb in those 766 miles (live in a hilly area)

mech was brand new October 19 when xtr was first released - so its either the play on the mech or the wear in the cassette....


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

My main bolt into the hanger came loose after a couple of months. Had the same symptoms you describe. Check that first. It's been fine since (January).


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

andynunn said:


> My main bolt into the hanger came loose after a couple of months. Had the same symptoms you describe. Check that first. It's been fine since (January).


ive had the mech off the hanger several times, if you just mean the bolt that attaches it to the mech drop out hanger?


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

Yes, that one. In 30 years I've never had one come loose before but it was awkward to put back as the pivot seal was loose and kept getting trapped. It wasn't just the bolt loosening. The whole pivot assembly came apart just a bit. It looked OK but there was a lot of play at the cage and the shifting was slightly off.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

andynunn said:


> Yes, that one. In 30 years I've never had one come loose before but it was awkward to put back as the pivot seal was loose and kept getting trapped. It wasn't just the bolt loosening. The whole pivot assembly came apart just a bit. It looked OK but there was a lot of play at the cage and the shifting was slightly off.


cheers - thought you meant that one, I have had it off a lot and cleaned and checked everything, tbh it feels like the play Is mostly around that area somewhere but I cant pinpoint exacltly where, its just more obvious when you push side to side on the lower cage as its more exagurrated further away from the mech


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

As promised video of my mech






Doesn't look right at all, when I move it, it doesn't return back, it's all sloppy and floppy like the pivots or pins have given up... I guess my upshifting is crappy as there appears to no tension in the mech.. Just doesn't look right and not how I remember it being new


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

Where are you located? I would ask LBS to check warranty on that.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

TurboKoo said:


> Where are you located? I would ask LBS to check warranty on that.


I'm england.... Yeh I'm going to send it off to them and he's said hell send it in for warranty

Not normal at all, not sure what's happened it's just 11 months old, but it's not been battered or anything, hoping they warranty it as its got a 2yr warranty on xtr stuff and they are a fortune to replace


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Didzy2009 said:


> I'm england.... Yeh I'm going to send it off to them and he's said hell send it in for warranty
> 
> Not normal at all, not sure what's happened it's just 11 months old, but it's not been battered or anything, hoping they warranty it as its got a 2yr warranty on xtr stuff and they are a fortune to replace


You sure you need to involve the LBS? Its one thing I like about Shimano vs Sram. The one thing I needed warranty on I went straight to Shimano US.


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## Didzy2009 (Jan 18, 2009)

TwoTone said:


> You sure you need to involve the LBS? Its one thing I like about Shimano vs Sram. The one thing I needed warranty on I went straight to Shimano US.


Yeh we have to send it via the importer for shimano which is madison, as far as i know there's no direct shimano hq in the uk


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Dear XTR's.

After running set of XTR 900 and Sram 11x casette it's time to 12x switch.

Unfortunately mentime i've moved to new bike and 12x157 RF wheels.

Is there a freehub from RF compatibile with micro-spline?
Can i mix sram 12x casette and Shimano 9100 drivetrain (to keep XD freehub)?
Does 10-51 casette require SGS or can be used with SG?


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

Answers below
QUOTE=Placek;14421395 - Dear XTR's.

After running set of XTR 900 and Sram 11x casette it's time to 12x switch.

Unfortunately mentime i've moved to new bike and 12x157 RF wheels.

Is there a freehub from RF compatibile with micro-spline?
Check with RF

Can i mix sram 12x casette and Shimano 9100 drivetrain (to keep XD freehub)?

Yes, watch this - 




Does 10-51 casette require SGS or can be used with SG? /QUOTE

There's only SGS offered by Shimano, look for M7100/ M8100/ M9100 derailleurs.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

mevnet said:


> Answers below
> QUOTE=Placek;14421395 - Dear XTR's.
> 
> After running set of XTR 900 and Sram 11x casette it's time to 12x switch.
> ...


Thanks a lot.

Questions.
1. Can i use the regular SRAM 11x freehub with new 12x SRAM casette?
2. Can i use new xtr 9100 chain with sram 12x casette and 12x Shimano dir?
3.


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## brex17 (Jan 31, 2019)

Placek said:


> Thanks a lot.
> 
> Questions.
> 1. Can i use the regular SRAM 11x freehub with new 12x SRAM casette?
> ...


1. No.
2. Yes.
3. Maybe.


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## MagicShite (Oct 20, 2015)

Just upgraded to the new XT M8100 after patiently waiting it out despite the Eagle's availability.

Boy is it god damn worth it. The shifting is simply sublime. Can't wait for HG+ to trickle down to the next road 12 speed group.

One thing for sure, I finally need to upsize my chainring to 34T. The cassette ratio really does allow you to go 2T higher than sram eagle equivalent.


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## hiss2 (Jan 13, 2002)

im sure this has been covered here but im admittedly being lazy.. :

Can i use a Sram Eagle 12spd chainring w/ a Shimano xtr 12spd chain? 
(obviously in conjunction with 12spd xtr cassette/der/shifter)

thanks


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## gonzo2213 (Mar 2, 2011)

could anyone tell me if an 11 speed chain will work with 12 speed chainrings?

looking at upgrading my cranks on my 11 speed drivetrain.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

hiss2 said:


> im sure this has been covered here but im admittedly being lazy.. :
> 
> Can i use a Sram Eagle 12spd chainring w/ a Shimano xtr 12spd chain?
> (obviously in conjunction with 12spd xtr cassette/der/shifter)
> ...


Nope, has to be an HG+ one.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

hiss2 said:


> im sure this has been covered here but im admittedly being lazy.. :
> 
> Can i use a Sram Eagle 12spd chainring w/ a Shimano xtr 12spd chain?
> (obviously in conjunction with 12spd xtr cassette/der/shifter)
> ...


When using regular 12 speed rings you need a sram quick link as the shimano link is too narrow. I use sram link with raceface ring on my bike.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

MagicShite said:


> Just upgraded to the new XT M8100 after patiently waiting it out despite the Eagle's availability.
> 
> Boy is it god damn worth it. The shifting is simply sublime. Can't wait for HG+ to trickle down to the next road 12 speed group.
> 
> One thing for sure, I finally need to upsize my chainring to 34T. The cassette ratio really does allow you to go 2T higher than sram eagle equivalent.


????? Huh, How does the math work on that one?
10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42-50
10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51

The effective change between the two cassettes on a gear ratio and gear development plot isn't significant, especially not a 2T increase on the Chainring!!
In effect you're just trying to equalise the gear ratios so you get the same speed. Why bother??!! In fact you wil reduce your effective gear range because if you're running a 32T on the SRAM drivetrain you still won't be strong enough to handle the taller midrange and top end gearing


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Brad said:


> ????? Huh, How does the math work on that one?


His username checks out...


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

brex17 said:


> 1. No.
> 2. Yes.
> 3. Maybe.


A bit concerned.

1.Last year XD freehub is listed as 11 and 12x than?
2. Which chain would fit better to Eagle casette and Shimano 9100 dir?


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## MagicShite (Oct 20, 2015)

Brad said:


> ????? Huh, How does the math work on that one?
> 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42-50
> 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51
> 
> ...


Sigh

I made the math on another thread

https://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-...ed-vs-sram-gs-eagle-1112951.html#post14282425

In essence, when you climb anything of significance (real long and steep climbs), the most important thing are the last three big cogs of the cassette. How well you can play with those is important. Using 34T on the shimano cassette, you only lose about .1 ratio from the sram equivalent with a 32T.

Using 34T also allows you to go slightly faster on the flats without using the 10T too much, which is VERY important before entering the slow grindy single tracks. I see it as a win win.


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## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

MagicShite said:


> Sigh
> 
> I made the math on another thread
> 
> ...


I agree, I have a 36 on my XTR bike and the top three are way better than the SRAM gearing when your pushing the limits of required climbing gears. I actually run a 38 on my AXS bike but it's a fixed seat XC rig more oriented for faster flater trails.

I also find AXS to be a better drivetrain for shifting accuracy when your really gassed. XTR I prefer for more tech and shifting under climbing loads. AXS clutch also is not as strong take that for what its worth.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

MagicShite said:


> Sigh
> Using 34T also allows you to go slightly faster on the flats without using the 10T too much, which is VERY important before entering the slow grindy single tracks. I see it as a win win.


Maybe in theory, but with a lot of high level racing behind me over the last few seasons, I'd say in practice, it's cadence that is a much more determining factor. Spinning a fast cadence is not always comfortable, but almost always faster in the long run, more efficient for your muscles so it saves them and still makes you go faster. Although most top level racers don't need ridiculous combos like 28x52, they also don't see any benefit from lugging around big chainrings, because even when you have these bigger/high gears, you simply don't pedal them fast enough cadence-wise to really be faster and efficient. It's more resistance, which sometimes feels good, but IME, there's no actual benefit. I'm not saying that no one should run a 34, just that the logic of running it to make you go faster isn't sound in my experience.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Placek said:


> A bit concerned.
> 
> 1.Last year XD freehub is listed as 11 and 12x than?
> 2. Which chain would fit better to Eagle casette and Shimano 9100 dir?


SRAM uses the same freehub body for 11spd cassettes as for 12spd mtn cassettes. There's ZERO difference. There is an XDR freehub body, but that's road only, and requires a totally different hub. It's not relevant here.

You're better off matching cassette and chain brand. You COULD use a Shimano chain with an Eagle quick link, but what's the point when you could just buy a SRAM chain and use the included quick link? You could use a KMC 12spd chain if you prefer those.


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## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

Jayem said:


> Maybe in theory, but with a lot of high level racing behind me over the last few seasons, I'd say in practice, it's cadence that is a much more determining factor. Spinning a fast cadence is not always comfortable, but almost always faster in the long run, more efficient for your muscles so it saves them and still makes you go faster. Although most top level racers don't need ridiculous combos like 28x52, they also don't see any benefit from lugging around big chainrings, because even when you have these bigger/high gears, you simply don't pedal them fast enough cadence-wise to really be faster and efficient. It's more resistance, which sometimes feels good, but IME, there's no actual benefit. I'm not saying that no one should run a 34, just that the logic of running it to make you go faster isn't sound in my experience.


For regular people that don't get a new bike every race it's best to use the largest ring you can. I run big rings because using a 10 tooth sprocket is unrealistic unreasonable and can slip very easily. Small sprockets wear extremely quickly and it's easy to kill a cassette in the small sprockets in a single long ride with a few road transfers. XTR 10 tooth is only engaged with a single tooth on the chain... if you aren't using your pie plate you should up your chainring


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

04 F2000SL said:


> For regular people that don't get a new bike every race it's best to use the largest ring you can.


the above seems to contradict the below, in all honesty.



04 F2000SL said:


> if you aren't using your pie plate you should up your chainring


I don't agree with this method of selecting gearing. For one, a 10-51 cassette is most likely more RANGE than the majority of riders are going to use. It's a big part of the reason I selected the 10-45 cassette to build my drivetrain around. Problem is, Shimano was only thinking of racers when they considered that cassette. And that "regular" riders would all gravitate towards the 10-51 cassette. Frankly, I have no desire to go back to super long cage derailleurs. I'd rather run the shortest cage I can for crisper shifting, better chain stability, and keeping the derailleur away from trailside debris.

I'm definitely a midpack "mortal" rider. I care about having low end for big/long climbs. I don't much care about big top end gearing because if I'm going that fast, I'm coasting downhill or I grab a different bike. There's a couple things I look at when I'm selecting gearing. For one, I want to maximize the range of the cassette that I actually use. Both ends of it. It spreads wear across the cassette rather than focusing it any particular place. I also look to run the chain towards the middle of the cassette for most of my riding for straighter chainlines. I also look for the big cog to be what I use on the biggest, steepest climbs or for smaller ones only when I'm trashed from a hard ride.

I started with a 30t chainring in my drivetrain because that's the smallest that any of the aftermarket companies are making for my cranks (RF) that's officially compatible with HG+. It put me in the big cog on the cassette too much, and was still too tall of a gear for the steepest, longest climbs. I found that I was blowing myself up super early on my rides and it wasn't good. I went back to a "not compatible" 28t chainring using the Eagle quick link to make it work in order to get the gearing I wanted. It has the benefit of also being steel, so it's cheap and durable, and I really don't need to worry about it wearing out super fast.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

04 F2000SL said:


> For regular people that don't get a new bike every race it's best to use the largest ring you can. I run big rings because using a 10 tooth sprocket is unrealistic unreasonable and can slip very easily. Small sprockets wear extremely quickly and it's easy to kill a cassette in the small sprockets in a single long ride with a few road transfers. XTR 10 tooth is only engaged with a single tooth on the chain... if you aren't using your pie plate you should up your chainring


I'm a stronger rider and you should use what suits your terrain. We have 20%+ grades and need the 30x50/51. Even then I'm outside of my optimum range in some spots, dropping down to sub 60 rpm. I almost never use my 10 tooth on dirt, so it will last forever.

On my race bike I need the top end and use a 32 for the sprints and pacelines. It's no fun to climb on at non race pace though.

Most recreational riders should be sizing down and keeping the RMP higher. Pushing a big gear is always slower.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

04 F2000SL said:


> For regular people that don't get a new bike every race it's best to use the largest ring you can. I run big rings because using a 10 tooth sprocket is unrealistic unreasonable and can slip very easily. Small sprockets wear extremely quickly and it's easy to kill a cassette in the small sprockets in a single long ride with a few road transfers. XTR 10 tooth is only engaged with a single tooth on the chain... if you aren't using your pie plate you should up your chainring


A 32 is not going to wear "extremely quickly" compared to a 34. I agree with if you aren't using your full range of rear gears that you need to up your chainring size, but sometimes that's only because you don't ride the steeper/extended stuff as often. I find for normal riders AND racing that not having a 34 or 36t front ring does NOT hold them back in terms of speed.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Harold said:


> SRAM uses the same freehub body for 11spd cassettes as for 12spd mtn cassettes. There's ZERO difference. There is an XDR freehub body, but that's road only, and requires a totally different hub. It's not relevant here.
> 
> You're better off matching cassette and chain brand. You COULD use a Shimano chain with an Eagle quick link, but what's the point when you could just buy a SRAM chain and use the included quick link? You could use a KMC 12spd chain if you prefer those.


So i need to be more detailed

I'm using RF NarrowWide Oval chainring so it looks i can't use Shimano chain.
Can i be safe with Sram or aKMC chain ( with 1295 casette)?


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## bronxbomber252 (Mar 27, 2017)

Placek said:


> So i need to be more detailed
> 
> I'm using RF NarrowWide Oval chainring so it looks i can't use Shimano chain.
> Can i be safe with Sram or aKMC chain ( with 1295 casette)?


You can be safe with one of those yes. But you will get better performance if you use a shimano chain with a sram powerlink in place of the shimano one. You absolutely can run a shimano chain with that chainring, you just can't use the shimano quick link.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

Has some of you already worn the alloy cogs on the XTR cassette? (10-51)

Two daya ago I met a biker with an XTR drivetrain, but with a Sram XX1 cassette.
When I asked him why I said that the new XTR cassette ist wearing way too fast.
Especially the 39t cog which is also made of alloy

The region there has lots of long and steep climbs. So most of the time you have to use the biggest cogs on your cassette.
He was very disapointed and after trashing the alloy cogs a few times he switched to the XX1 cassette which he said lasts like forever.

I think if you live in such a region were you have to climb a lot the XT cassette should be the better choice.

What are your experiences so far?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Placek said:


> So i need to be more detailed
> 
> I'm using RF NarrowWide Oval chainring so it looks i can't use Shimano chain.
> Can i be safe with Sram or aKMC chain ( with 1295 casette)?





bronxbomber252 said:


> You can be safe with one of those yes. But you will get better performance if you use a shimano chain with a sram powerlink in place of the shimano one. You absolutely can run a shimano chain with that chainring, you just can't use the shimano quick link.


No point in using the Shimano chain and THEN replacing the quick link when you're using a SRAM cassette. Pick a SRAM chain or KMC chain (and use the included quick link) if you're using a SRAM cassette. Doesn't matter which. Pick what's cheap/on sale/what you prefer based on prior experience, or whatever. Using a Shimano 12spd chain on a SRAM cassette confers zero benefits of HG+ shifting, and may in fact be a touch worse because it's built to be used with a Shimano 12spd cassette that has slightly different cog spacing than SRAM 12spd cassettes.



OneTrustMan said:


> Has some of you already worn the alloy cogs on the XTR cassette? (10-51)
> 
> Two daya ago I met a biker with an XTR drivetrain, but with a Sram XX1 cassette.
> When I asked him why I said that the new XTR cassette ist wearing way too fast.
> ...


I haven't had any problems. I spend a decent amount of time in the bigger cogs, too, because I have quite a few long and fairly steep grades. I'm on the 10-45, but the 3 biggest cogs are still alu.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

OneTrustMan said:


> Has some of you already worn the alloy cogs on the XTR cassette? (10-51)
> 
> Two daya ago I met a biker with an XTR drivetrain, but with a Sram XX1 cassette.
> When I asked him why I said that the new XTR cassette ist wearing way too fast.
> ...


not at all. mine has been solid.

my rides are all well over 2500ft of climbing grinding in the lowest two gears. i run pro gold extreme chainlube for what it's worth, and clean plates and pulleys with alchohol and re-apply after every ride. i wash cassette and chain every 6-10 rides. i run a pretty high cadence though, like 100-110.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

I have a couple of the 45T cassettes.
The oldest probably has 2K miles on it....and spent a lot of it's early life in New England mud and water....and a few hours with a very bent derailleur hanger
Still going strong.


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## gustavo.ghd (Jul 13, 2017)

FactoryMatt said:


> not at all. mine has been solid.
> 
> my rides are all well over 2500ft of climbing grinding in the lowest two gears. i run pro gold extreme chainlube for what it's worth, and clean plates and pulleys with alchohol and re-apply after every ride. i wash cassette and chain every 6-10 rides. i run a pretty high cadence though, like 100-110.


Well, you said basically nothing about the durability. 
What mileage are you getting on the cassette and chain?


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## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

gustavo.ghd said:


> Well, you said basically nothing about the durability.
> What mileage are you getting on the cassette and chain?


I have around 90 hours on a XTR cassette 51 tooth. I find durability of the larger cogs to be less than steel obviously but no means quick wearing. I'm not the best about washing and cleaning it all up when conditions are dry and I'm riding every single day in prime summertime.

The chain rubs the adjacent gears a hair and wore some of the larger cogs sides down but other than that it's been excellent. This might damage shift ramps a bit


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

gustavo.ghd said:


> Well, you said basically nothing about the durability.
> What mileage are you getting on the cassette and chain?


ive got at least 800 miles each on two different cassettes and chains.

10mph average and 1200 ft/climbing per 10 miles.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Confirming - I have to use a sram quick link on the shimano chain for it to play nice with an absolute black chainring?

My time with eagle has come to an end. Getting tired of the random clunky shifts. Ordered xtr cassette, xt shifter and slx derailleur.

By the way - There is a seller on ebay currently selling the XTR cassettes for $263


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## bronxbomber252 (Mar 27, 2017)

92gli said:


> Confirming - I have to use a sram quick link on the shimano chain for it to play nice with an absolute black chainring?
> 
> My time with eagle has come to an end. Getting tired of the random clunky shifts. Ordered xtr cassette, xt shifter and slx derailleur.
> 
> By the way - There are a seller on ebay currently selling the XTR cassettes for $263


Yes, unless you have a Shimano crank and get their shimano 12sp specific chainring


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

For those using non Shimano 12sp chainrings with sram quicklink, have you noticed chain or cranking wear? 

Have a bike with truvativ decedent crank coming but am going to swap to Shimano shifter, RD, chain, and cassette. From what I read this will work with a SRAM quicklink, but curious if it kills the chain.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Guys

Would that setup work.

RF crank with Narrow Wide chainring, sramm xx1 chain, Eagle 1295 casette, xtr 9100 derailleur and shifter?


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## twowheelmotion (Feb 10, 2010)

OneTrustMan said:


> Has some of you already worn the alloy cogs on the XTR cassette? (10-51)
> 
> When I asked him why I said that the new XTR cassette ist wearing way too fast.
> 
> What are your experiences so far?


 I came here just to say that very thing. I have been on XTR 9100 11-51 Since June, and have recently become very frustrated with it. Been ridden just about 3x a week consistently, since purchase. All was well in the beginning. Smooth, flawless shifting and quiet operation. Then about a week ago, I start hearing this mal-adjusted sound, almost like its a barrel adjustment issue where the chain was skipping and wanting to ghost shift. Nope. Not out of adjustment..

After hours of trying to figure out the issue, turns out that the interface from the hub body to the cassette body has such minimal contact points, that the cassette body actually stretched and ovalized. Basically, "Pringled" on both sides of the XTR cassette body. Grrrrr..

So what was happening, was one "ring" and the other opposing "ring" were worn and the 1-piece cassette had so much play in one direction, that even if I cranked the lock ring down to +40nm, the cassette was still loose AF. Still loose enough to where once I rode the bike, the cassette would go cockeyed, again, and VIOLA the chain would want to ghost shift.

If you have seen the XTR cassette, there are 2 opposing, and minimal contact points that are isolated from each other, rather than a sleeve-type with maximum contact, like old HG. Good thing is all XTR is guaranteed for a few years, because it's warranty time!


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

twowheelmotion said:


> I came here just to say that very thing. I have been on XTR 9100 11-51 Since June, and have recently become very frustrated with it. Been ridden just about 3x a week consistently, since purchase. All was well in the beginning. Smooth, flawless shifting and quiet operation. Then about a week ago, I start hearing this mal-adjusted sound, almost like its a barrel adjustment issue where the chain was skipping and wanting to ghost shift. Nope. Not out of adjustment..
> 
> After hours of trying to figure out the issue, turns out that the interface from the hub body to the cassette body has such minimal contact points, that the cassette body actually stretched and ovalized. Basically, "Pringled" on both sides of the XTR cassette body. Grrrrr..
> 
> ...


So the 20S costs much less and last much more??
Old is proven, old is good, old is gold.
Keep shifting under load, i am too old to learn that trick.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Just checked to make sure the xtr cassette I ordered on ebay is from an authorized dealer. Whew! It is. 

Would like to see some pics of what you described twowheelmotion. What brand hub are you using?


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## gustavo.ghd (Jul 13, 2017)

FactoryMatt said:


> ive got at least 800 miles each on two different cassettes and chains.
> 
> 10mph average and 1200 ft/climbing per 10 miles.


No surprise you have no issues, that is nothing to evaluate on durability.
XX1 and X01 cassettes are reported lasting over 6k miles.


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

twowheelmotion said:


> even if I cranked the lock ring down to +40nm, the cassette was still loose AF.


Hi twowheelmotion, did you have the lockring tightened to 40nm from new? Cheers


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## twowheelmotion (Feb 10, 2010)

PuddleDuck said:


> Hi twowheelmotion, did you have the lockring tightened to 40nm from new? Cheers


 Uh huh. Sure did. Torque spec to 40nm with a my trusty Shimano Pro torque wrench, using the applicator, the spacers the new super-sweet Shimano grease. It's XTR... Moment so special I had a bottle of wine open and Marvin Gaye playing on the HiFi, too.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Placek said:


> Guys
> 
> Would that setup work.
> 
> RF crank with Narrow Wide chainring, sramm xx1 chain, Eagle 1295 casette, xtr 9100 derailleur and shifter?


Anyone?


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

Placek said:


> Anyone?


It would work just fine, used it racing this past season - 




Also a playlist with a lot more details of the Shimano 12 speed drivetrain. Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAXVoVap1M6t4sLcLC1KJP6ciHmRoN3sa


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

twowheelmotion said:


> Uh huh. Sure did. Torque spec to 40nm with a my trusty Shimano Pro torque wrench, using the applicator, the spacers the new super-sweet Shimano grease. It's XTR... Moment so special I had a bottle of wine open and Marvin Gaye playing on the HiFi, too.


Full XTR. Special. Almost worthy of a live performance with full orchestra.

Which hub are you using?

I hop that you keep us informed about what Shimano say/do.


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## twowheelmotion (Feb 10, 2010)

PuddleDuck said:


> Full XTR. Special. Almost worthy of a live performance with full orchestra.
> 
> Which hub are you using?
> 
> I hop that you keep us informed about what Shimano say/do.


 Definitely will... So.. I placed the order in April 19' before the entire XTR group was completely available to ship. Problem at that time was the limited amount of companies that were doing the new hub design. Even Shimano didn't have the hub to ship. Contemplated running some frankenwheel with a DT Swiss driver, but ended up going with a wheelset from NOBL, Canada. NOBL sold me Carbon 38's on I-9 101's and they included the I-9 microspline driver. Jury is still out on the 101 hubs...


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

twowheelmotion said:


> Definitely will... So.. I placed the order in April 19' before the entire XTR group was completely available to ship. Problem at that time was the limited amount of companies that were doing the new hub design. Even Shimano didn't have the hub to ship. Contemplated running some frankenwheel with a DT Swiss driver, but ended up going with a wheelset from NOBL, Canada. NOBL sold me Carbon 38's on I-9 101's and they included the I-9 microspline driver. Jury is still out on the 101 hubs...


I'm interested in why you're not convinced about the 101 hubs. Is it this issue, or something else?

If you have any concerns about I9 product, you should contact them, I've found them to be very helpful and responsive to both general questions and specific issues.

They may want to know about this anyway - lest this is somehow specific to their freehub (in which chase they would look after you), or others start blaming them without reason!


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

This is what i needed exactly.
Thanks a lot.


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## twowheelmotion (Feb 10, 2010)

PuddleDuck said:


> I'm interested in why you're not convinced about the 101 hubs. Is it this issue, or something else?
> 
> If you have any concerns about I9 product, you should contact them, I've found them to be very helpful and responsive to both general questions and specific issues.
> 
> They may want to know about this anyway - lest this is somehow specific to their freehub (in which chase they would look after you), or others start blaming them without reason!


 Firstly, I-9 is, and has been a great company, to me. I would never forsake them, and has nothing to do with the microspline. I just had a little hiccup with the front hub. Noticed the wheel had a little a little play from side to side. Explained to I-9 what the problem was, and they shipped a replacement end cap for the drive-side. Part showed up to the shop a few days later at no cost, and that seems to have fixed the issue. Good times.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

So still no word on a firmware update for XTR Di2 for 12 speed?


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> So still no word on a firmware update for XTR Di2 for 12 speed?


It's going to require a new derailleur, there won't be any quick flashes from 11- to 12-speed.


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

*XTR M9100 rear derailleur rock strike!!*

I have just noticed this damage to the body of the rear mech which I presume was caused by a rock. I only noticed when the bike was upside down so could have happened awhile ago. It's still working fine and I think it is the whole body and not replaceable. Anybody had the same happen or any repair suggestions?


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

MBO Rider said:


> I have just noticed this damage to the body of the rear mech which I presume was caused by a rock. I only noticed when the bike was upside down so could have happened awhile ago. It's still working fine and I think it is the whole body and not replaceable. Anybody had the same happen or any repair suggestions?
> View attachment 1295625


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## Carpetbombing (Nov 18, 2019)

gonzo2213 said:


> could anyone tell me if an 11 speed chain will work with 12 speed chainrings?
> 
> looking at upgrading my cranks on my 11 speed drivetrain.


I had the exact same question. I wanted to put the MT900 crank on my existing 11 speed system to save a little weight. I talked to Wolf Tooth to get their thoughts on it (I'm running a WT chainring now) on the presumption that they have quite a bit of engineering knowledge on the differences between the old 11 speed and the new 12. The gist of what they said was that the tooth profile is different enough (deeper valleys between the teeth, the additional beveling on the teeth, etc.) that you'd wear stuff out pretty quickly. Their opinion was that it is inadvisable bordering on incompatible to run a new 12 speed chainring with an 11 speed chain. Incidentally, WT has no plans to make an 11 speed chainring for the new Shimano direct mount cranks. I asked.


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

Yes the Clutch lever is fine moving smoothly and still working. I tried to find an exploded view pdf of all the rear mech parts like Shimano normally have but with no success


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## MBO Rider (Jan 21, 2019)

92gli said:


> Interesting. I just went to look at my SLX mech to see if that piece is plastic; it is. Thought maybe they used plastic on xtr to shave a few grams. On a related note, the plastic clutch switch feels pretty flimsy as well. Can you move your switch to off position?
> I suspect you'll have to replace the whole bottom half, if it's even available.


Yes the Clutch lever is fine moving smoothly and still working. I tried to find an exploded view pdf of all the rear mech parts like Shimano normally have but with no success


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## aja07 (Jul 16, 2018)

https://si.shimano.com/#/en/iEV/RD-M9100


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

The white industries freehub is a nice piece


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

^that falls into the category "bike porn".


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Carpetbombing said:


> I had the exact same question. I wanted to put the MT900 crank on my existing 11 speed system to save a little weight. I talked to Wolf Tooth to get their thoughts on it (I'm running a WT chainring now) on the presumption that they have quite a bit of engineering knowledge on the differences between the old 11 speed and the new 12. The gist of what they said was that the tooth profile is different enough (deeper valleys between the teeth, the additional beveling on the teeth, etc.) that you'd wear stuff out pretty quickly. Their opinion was that it is inadvisable bordering on incompatible to run a new 12 speed chainring with an 11 speed chain. Incidentally, WT has no plans to make an 11 speed chainring for the new Shimano direct mount cranks. I asked.


I'm thinking WT is playing it safe with that advice. I would be surprised if there is any issue running 11sp chains on any of the Shimano 12sp specific chainrings. Internal dimensions are basically the same.

The other option is to run 12sp chains on your 11sp drivetrain. I know this works well, I use X01 Eagle chains on my 11sp bike and it works great. I have tried XTR 12sp chains on it too, and the chainring was a minor issue, but using the MT900 cranks would eliminate this from being a concern.

I have one bike that is pure 12sp XTR, and one that is a mishmash 11sp(currently XTR 11sp derailleur and Garbaruk 10-50 cassette with X01 chain and XTR 11sp cranks with WT chainring, previously X01 cassette and I have run it with XTR 12sp chain), and while there is a benefit to the XTR cassette+chain combination in Hyperglide+, the drivetrains both work quite well.

Bottom line, any 11 or 12 speed bike I wasn't using a HG+ cassette on, I would use an X01 chain, due to the way it's made it's a very durable chain without the extra bling tax of XX1.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

92gli said:


> The white industries freehub is a nice piece
> View attachment 1296287


Looks great!
Is it a steel body?


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## Myers005 (Jan 31, 2011)

OneTrustMan said:


> Looks great!
> Is it a steel body?


Titanium


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

Myers005 said:


> Titanium


Thanks.
White makes some really great looking hubs.


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## paxfobiscum (Dec 16, 2014)

Harold said:


> the above seems to contradict the below, in all honesty.
> 
> .... I started with a 30t chainring in my drivetrain because that's the smallest that any of the aftermarket companies are making for my cranks (RF) that's officially compatible with HG+. It put me in the big cog on the cassette too much, and was still too tall of a gear for the steepest, longest climbs. I found that I was blowing myself up super early on my rides and it wasn't good. I went back to a "not compatible" 28t chainring using the Eagle quick link to make it work in order to get the gearing I wanted. It has the benefit of also being steel, so it's cheap and durable, and I really don't need to worry about it wearing out super fast.


Quick question: So your chain length measurement was set up initially for the AB 30T chainring? When you changed that to the AB RF 28T chainring, did you have to reduce your chain length by one link?

I only have the AB RF 28T oval chainring now (with my XTR 11 speed group) and I intend to keep that chainring. However, I at some point I would like to use / test the new AB 30T RF chainring but I am afraid that my chain will be too short if I go up 2 teeth on my chainring.

Thanks in advance to your response.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Just experiment with extra master links, it won’t hurt anything.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

As much as I admire how Sram machines their cassettes, this is very cool in a different way


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## Thiagooo (Aug 28, 2015)

I can use a crankset/chainring 1x11 m8000 34t with the rest m8100? 

I read that the shimano 12spd chain doesnt fit this chainring 1x11. Options?


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## huckleberry hound (Feb 27, 2015)

Thiagooo said:


> I can use a crankset/chainring 1x11 m8000 34t with the rest m8100?
> 
> I read that the shimano 12spd chain doesnt fit this chainring 1x11. Options?


https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com...-slx-m7000-for-shimano-12spd-hyperglide-chain


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## gonzo2213 (Mar 2, 2011)

Carpetbombing said:


> I had the exact same question. I wanted to put the MT900 crank on my existing 11 speed system to save a little weight. I talked to Wolf Tooth to get their thoughts on it (I'm running a WT chainring now) on the presumption that they have quite a bit of engineering knowledge on the differences between the old 11 speed and the new 12. The gist of what they said was that the tooth profile is different enough (deeper valleys between the teeth, the additional beveling on the teeth, etc.) that you'd wear stuff out pretty quickly. Their opinion was that it is inadvisable bordering on incompatible to run a new 12 speed chainring with an 11 speed chain. Incidentally, WT has no plans to make an 11 speed chainring for the new Shimano direct mount cranks. I asked.


So I bit the bullet and bought XTR M9120 12 speed cranks to go with my 11 speed drivetrain. I've only done one short race, but it seems to work fine.

I guess the jury is still out with long term wear....


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

gonzo2213 said:


> So I bit the bullet and bought XTR M9120 12 speed cranks to go with my 11 speed drivetrain. I've only done one short race, but it seems to work fine.
> 
> I guess the jury is still out with long term wear....


It works because the 12 speed chainring teeth are skinnier to make room for the beefier inner plates of the chain. Interesting if the chain retention is as good with an 11 speed chain that should fit loosely on that chainring compared to the 12 speed HG+ Shimano chain. I would love to hear your feedback on that.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

92gli said:


> As much as I admire how Sram machines their cassettes, this is very cool in a different way
> View attachment 1296957


I have one of the 4-material (carbon, aluminum, steel, titanium) cassettes. It's good, but relatively heavy. As you say, it's still an impressive piece...one could say they have had to go to even great engineering extents to try and get the weight down, so again, impressive. I have one of the old HG drivers around to switch out to cheap summer commuting drivetrains, so I might buy another one of those high end 4-material cassettes for it for the winter use.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Jayem said:


> I have one of the 4-material (carbon, aluminum, steel, titanium) cassettes. It's good, but relatively heavy. As you say, it's still an impressive piece...one could say they have had to go to even great engineering extents to try and get the weight down, so again, impressive. I have one of the old HG drivers around to switch out to cheap summer commuting drivetrains, so I might buy another one of those high end 4-material cassettes for it for the winter use.


They hold up super nice. Totally conjecture here, but the alloy they use for the big sprockets is special stuff. Holds up wayyy better than my sram xg1190 cassettes. Still looks new almost after tons of miles.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

FactoryMatt said:


> They hold up super nice. Totally conjecture here, but the alloy they use for the big sprockets is special stuff. Holds up wayyy better than my sram xg1190 cassettes. Still looks new almost after tons of miles.


What conditions? And What lube do you use? I demoed the XTR and really like it. But I'm concerned about so much alloy. And don't want the heavy SLX cassette.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Cerberus75 said:


> What conditions? And What lube do you use? I demoed the XTR and really like it. But I'm concerned about so much alloy. And don't want the heavy SLX cassette.


Dry moondust and pro gold extreme. I clean chain with alchohol after every ride and reapply light coat. I weigh 78kg and spin alot.

I spend alottt of time climbing in the big cogs. They get used.

Nothing to worry about i think. Theyve been solid.


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## hece (Feb 27, 2017)

mevnet said:


> It works because the 12 speed chainring teeth are skinnier to make room for the beefier inner plates of the chain. Interesting if the chain retention is as good with an 11 speed chain that should fit loosely on that chainring compared to the 12 speed HG+ Shimano chain. I would love to hear your feedback on that.


I have 12s SLX crankset with 32T which I'm running with 11s SLX chain in a 11s setup (XTR der and both sunrace/shimano cassettes). I've only had four one hour rides but so far but those with zero problems. But I'll consider using 12s X01 chain too. Though I'm not worried about wearing out the steel shimano chainring quickly.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

First ride on the new whip today. I. Can't. Believe. How. Much. Better. Than. Eagle. This. Stuff. Is!:thumbsup: Up and Down, but especially up.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

I’ve used Di2, 9 sp, 10 sp, 11 sp, and now 12sp. I’d say this is the best iteration yet. Di2 was very smooth and reliable from a RD shifting standpoint, but had some quirks that I didn’t care for. The shifter in particular was not very precise and would sometimes stick. It was hard to tell if it was working or not. The 12sp is very specific. You know it went and don’t have batteries or issues to mess with. 

I have two MTBs with Shimano 12sp. One is set up with XT RD and XTR Shifter that is a very good bang for the buck set up. The other is SLX RD and XT shifter. Both of these are as reliable as the other. The XTR shifter does add a bit of precision and refinement that you can feel, but doesn’t seem to make a difference in overall shifting consistency. Mostly just the refinement in feel. The 12 sp systems are pickier with the B-screw so pay attention when you set up and get that where it needs to be. Otherwise you’ll see very compromised shifts when on the trail. 

The new brakes are great! They feel much more consistent and solid than the prior generation while maintaining the easy one finger reach braking. 

I’m still not sure what the exact difference in crank ring tooth profile is vs other NW rings. As others stated you can use a SRAM quick link and it seem to work fine, but I don’t know if that causes excessive wear on the ring or chain given the different tooth to chain interface profile. 

The cassette is a nice piece and it is such a relief to see cassettes that aren’t $$$. Although the SRMA cassettes are nice to look at, the price is ridiculous in comparison to Shimano.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Dear colleagies.

I''m about to change the whole drivetrain.
Limitation is that my rear hub is super boost 157mm and casette would be from Sram (probably Eagle 1295).

Can You help me out with choosing 1x12 setup?
I was wondering on XTR but finding crankset with ~56 chainline in XTR is impossible.
What would be your call?


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Placek said:


> Dear colleagies.
> 
> I''m about to change the whole drivetrain.
> Limitation is that my rear hub is super boost 157mm and casette would be from Sram (probably Eagle 1295).
> ...


What crankset are you running currently? Can you just put on a 12sp Shimano compatible ring (wolftooth, one-up, etc).


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## Skarhead (Mar 15, 2018)

Placek said:


> Dear colleagies.
> 
> I''m about to change the whole drivetrain.
> Limitation is that my rear hub is super boost 157mm and casette would be from Sram (probably Eagle 1295).
> ...


New 12sp Shimano XT cranks

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/deore-xt-m8100/FC-M8130-1.html 56.5 chainline

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/deore-xt-m8100/FC-M8120-1.html55mm chainline


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

wildh said:


> What crankset are you running currently? Can you just put on a 12sp Shimano compatible ring (wolftooth, one-up, etc).


Currently having previous 11x xtr which is too narrow for wide chainline...this is why i need a new one.


Skarhead said:


> New 12sp Shimano XT cranks
> 
> https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/deore-xt-m8100/FC-M8130-1.html 56.5 chainline
> 
> https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/deore-xt-m8100/FC-M8120-1.html55mm chainline


What is the difference between 8120 and 8130?
Personally i like Shimano solutions as easy to maintenance and be able to access quickly.
Was considering at first RF NextR also.


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## Skarhead (Mar 15, 2018)

Placek said:


> Currently having previous 11x xtr which is too narrow for wide chainline...this is why i need a new one.What is the difference between 8120 and 8130?
> Personally i like Shimano solutions as easy to maintenance and be able to access quickly.
> Was considering at first RF NextR also.


8120 have 178 q factor and 55mm chainline, 8130 have 181 q factor and 56,5 chainline


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Would You consider XT 8130 over RF NextR?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Placek said:


> Would You consider XT 8130 over RF NextR?


I would consider anything over Race Face carbon cranks.


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## VladConnery (Dec 2, 2014)

Hi and thanks for taking the time to read my post.

I have been running Di2 for about 5 years now and simply love it!!! Prior to that I ran through and destroyed Shimano and Sram drivetrains. I am a masher and Di2 has tolerated my abuse. I don't care to switch to 12sp as my 11spd setup works just fine and not to mention all the $$$$ it would cost to do so. However I really want to run the Scylence hubs by shimano. Does anyone know when the 11spd Microspline cassette will come out. Apologies if this question has been asked and answered.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

It won’t come out as production is stopped. Super small patch was delivered but even if you would get hands one of them it would not work with Di2 as spacing is different than “normal” 11-speed.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Hi folks.
I'm planning to switch to 12s XTR combined with 50T Sram Casette.
Shall i go with SGS (as Shimano suggests) or GS would also work?


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

According to Shimano, GS max cog size is 45; however, when I was running 11 speed, I used a GS XT derailleur (max cog size 46) with a Sunrace 11-50 cassette with no issues.

I would go with a SGS though. I use one (XT) with my 10-51 cassette, shifts like butter.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Placek said:


> Hi folks.
> I'm planning to switch to 12s XTR combined with 50T Sram Casette.
> Shall i go with SGS (as Shimano suggests) or GS would also work?


Why would you do that? You lose most of the benefit of the new Shimano drivetrain. At a minimum, you want the cassette and chain.


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## gustavo.ghd (Jul 13, 2017)

TwoTone said:


> Why would you do that? You lose most of the benefit of the new Shimano drivetrain. At a minimum, you want the cassette and chain.


Because a lot people doesn't want to change their wheels/hub/freehub which are already XD.
Because XX1 and XO1 cassettes lasts longer than XTR and XO1 chain is the best value per km.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

gustavo.ghd said:


> Because a lot people doesn't want to change their wheels/hub/freehub which are already XD.
> Because XX1 and XO1 cassettes lasts longer than XTR and XO1 chain is the best value per km.


So, if your claim that those parts last longer is true, and you don't want the smoother shifting of shimano, then what is the point of switching the derailleur?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

gustavo.ghd said:


> Because a lot people doesn't want to change their wheels/hub/freehub which are already XD.
> Because XX1 and XO1 cassettes lasts longer than XTR and XO1 chain is the best value per km.


Do you actually have anything to back that up, or you just stating your opinion as fact?



92gli said:


> So, if your claim that those parts last longer is true, and you don't want the smoother shifting of shimano, then what is the point of switching the derailleur?


Ding Ding Ding


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

gustavo.ghd said:


> Because a lot people doesn't want to change their wheels/hub/freehub which are already XD.
> Because XX1 and XO1 cassettes lasts longer than XTR and XO1 chain is the best value per km.


Let's be honest here. At these groupset, XTR, X01, XX1, levels value per mile is already out the window no?

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Let's be honest here. At these groupset, XTR, X01, XX1, levels value per mile is already out the window no?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


No, he's right, the XO1 12s chain has the lowest cost/mile of anything going.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

So my switch to 12s is a fact.

Have already Freehubs with XD and not going to change that(especially RF doesn't have MicroSpline freehub).

Shold i keep SGS or GS?

Would you use Sram or Shimano chanin ?


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## hece (Feb 27, 2017)

Placek said:


> Would you use Sram or Shimano chanin ?


No experience but what I read the benefits of Shimano chain come with Shimano cassette. And unless you have Shimano 12s compatible chain ring that Shimano 12s quick link is going to cause problems. A lot of people have therefore used Sram quick link with Shimano chain.

Go for Sram chain.


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## gustavo.ghd (Jul 13, 2017)

TwoTone said:


> Do you actually have anything to back that up, or you just stating your opinion as fact?
> 
> Ding Ding Ding


Regarding chains claim:
https://cyclingtips.com/2019/12/the-best-bicycle-chain-durability-and-efficiency-tested

Regarding the cassette it is quite obvious, due to materials used by Shimano to match Sram's weight.



92gli said:


> So, if your claim that those parts last longer is true, and you don't want the smoother shifting of shimano, then what is the point of switching the derailleur?


The point of use Shimano derailleurs is because it is cheaper and more robust.
An XT M8100 is a lot cheaper than GX and XTR is cheaper than XO1 for me.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I can only share my experience. These last 3 years my top 11 speeds SRAM i only replaced the chain and switched from 32 to 28 in front to help me climb. It shifts like new. The cassette keeps on performing well. I have no clue about how many kms because i am low tech, no cell...I guess when i bought the bike it was a year old. Black carbon frame no sticker but all componants where top, wheels, tires, brakes, fork SID. I just love the gradation of that 10-42 and the 12 is similar with only an extra 50. I agree the top are expensive but with no sticker and a bit used i got a winner.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

hece said:


> No experience but what I read the benefits of Shimano chain come with Shimano cassette. And unless you have Shimano 12s compatible chain ring that Shimano 12s quick link is going to cause problems. A lot of people have therefore used Sram quick link with Shimano chain.
> 
> Go for Sram chain.


Like i suspected, safer and with bigger chance to smoother combo.


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## Ghostina (Aug 4, 2019)

Anyone tried the XTR 9100 derailleur with the new E13 9-50, 12-Speed Cassette ?


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## Thiagooo (Aug 28, 2015)

This crown is compatible with the m8000 crankset, right? But I can't find any place to sell.


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## xprmntl (Oct 4, 2006)

1ma2t said:


> I will say, I really really miss the cage lockout from Sram. Even with the clutch "off" replacing a chain is almost a 3-hand job, and not something to be done in a hurry (aka during a race...)


I assume you're running a front derailleur? If not, one can simply slip the chain out and over the crank, giving as much slack as needed.


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## twowheelmotion (Feb 10, 2010)

I recently posted about the M9100 cassette having issues. As promised, Shimano warrantied the casette. I bought a new chain. I've been on the new M9100 stuff for about 4 months, ride roughly 7000' vert a week, super steep, all weather, all mountain, creek crossings, loam, DG, some sand.. Basically, my drivetrain takes a serious beating. Plus I weigh 225lbs... Anyhow.. Within 4 months, I managed to wear out the new cassette. Few days ago, JRA, on a long, steep climb, and I hear chigga-chigga-chigga ghost shift sounds.. I stop, cycle the chain and nada.. Keep riding.. Get home, take it all apart, clean, lube, inspect. Back on the bike, noise keeps happening on the climbs, which prompted me to take my fingers, and just crank on the pie plate. Sure-freakin-enough.. The low hole gears are ALL flexing around the rivets. LAME. I've really about had it with this stuff. JMO


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

I have a new Shimano crankset - the FC-MT900-1. Its a 1 x 12 that I had planned to use with a new Shimano 12 speed drivetrain. Plans have changed and now I going with a SRAM 11 speed drivetrain - chain, cassette and rear mech. Can I still use this crankset with the SRAM setup? I am willing to replace the chainring but having a hard time finding one to fit it and still work with an 11 speed drivetrain. Am I out of luck with this or can I run an 11 speed chain on this Shimano chainring as is?

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/produ...C-MT900-1.html


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## twowheelmotion (Feb 10, 2010)

NH Mtbiker said:


> I have a new Shimano crankset - the FC-MT900-1. Its a 1 x 12 that I had planned to use with a new Shimano 12 speed drivetrain. Plans have changed and now I going with a SRAM 11 speed drivetrain - chain, cassette and rear mech. Can I still use this crankset with the SRAM setup? I am willing to replace the chainring but having a hard time finding one to fit it and still work with an 11 speed drivetrain. Am I out of luck with this or can I run an 11 speed chain on this Shimano chainring as is?
> 
> https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/produ...C-MT900-1.html


 It will run. The 11sp chain width is wider that the 12spd teeth which means you will probably have some chance of abnormal wear eventually, but shouldnt be a major issue.


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## hece (Feb 27, 2017)

hece said:


> I have 12s SLX crankset with 32T which I'm running with 11s SLX chain in a 11s setup (XTR der and both sunrace/shimano cassettes). I've only had four one hour rides but so far but those with zero problems. But I'll consider using 12s X01 chain too. Though I'm not worried about wearing out the steel shimano chainring quickly.


I've done now 250km and zero problems. I quickly replaced that 32T with SLX 30T to get lower gearing. Also, I bought a X01 12s chain to try out in hopes of longer chain life and less wear of those multiple cassettes I have on different wheelsets. But haven't used that yet.


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## mevnet (Oct 4, 2013)

twowheelmotion said:


> I recently posted about the M9100 cassette having issues. As promised, Shimano warrantied the casette. I bought a new chain. I've been on the new M9100 stuff for about 4 months, ride roughly 7000' vert a week, super steep, all weather, all mountain, creek crossings, loam, DG, some sand.. Basically, my drivetrain takes a serious beating. Plus I weigh 225lbs... Anyhow.. Within 4 months, I managed to wear out the new cassette. Few days ago, JRA, on a long, steep climb, and I hear chigga-chigga-chigga ghost shift sounds.. I stop, cycle the chain and nada.. Keep riding.. Get home, take it all apart, clean, lube, inspect. Back on the bike, noise keeps happening on the climbs, which prompted me to take my fingers, and just crank on the pie plate. Sure-freakin-enough.. The low hole gears are ALL flexing around the rivets. LAME. I've really about had it with this stuff. JMO


Interesting is that I heard complains about XTR cassettes early on, when not many had the chance to get them. Mostly about wear of the aluminum cogs, bent, etc.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Small dilemma. I have an older non-boost bike, 2015 Bronson. Came with GXP cranks, 2x. Took the second smaller ring off, left the 104bcd ring on (didn't know it came off and I could mount a direct mount ring LOL) and a 30t ring, worked fine with Shimano 12sp XT (shifter, chain, cassette). Due to knee pain I wanted to change down to 165mm cranks, and try an oval chainring. Didn't find any GXP compatible 165mm cranks, so I bought GX dub crankset and BB.

I would buy the 12sp specific absolute black chainring, but I need non-boost, and it's only boost spacing.

So I bought the sram GXP AB oval, 6mm spacing. https://absoluteblack.cc/sram-oval.html

Problem is, the chain is getting pushed out, sort of like when using the shimano quicklink on the chain, with a non-shimano 12sp ring. and it happens only on the oval is in "landscape" mode (not sure how to say it).

Is the Sram AB oval chainring, not compatible with the shimano 12sp chain? Do I just need to bed it in? Or maybe it's a chain length issue, since I went from round 30t to oval 30t? I can break the chain and add a link if needed, but don't want to unless I need to.

If not, am I able to somehow push the shimano 12sp ab oval ring out 3mm with spacers, on a Dub crank?


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

12 sp shimano chain is the only one that offers HyperGlide+ performance of smooth shifting under load (when used with shimano cogs). however it only accepts shimano chainrings.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jdang307 said:


> Is the Sram AB oval chainring, not compatible with the shimano 12sp chain?


No. Says right on the page 12spd EAGLE compatible. No mention whatsoever of Shimano HG+. It needs to specifically state Shimano HG+ compatibility because it's different from Eagle.

Buy this:
https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/camo/products/camo-direct-mount-spider-for-sram
and
https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com...chainrings-for-shimano-12spd-hyperglide-chain

Looks like Wolftooth is following Oneup's lead and phasing out individual direct mount rings, and moving to using spiders to cut down on sku overload with the multitude of direct mount interfaces and now tooth profiles.

Speaking of, it looks like Oneup is FINALLY selling Shimano HG+ rings! And holy crap....they're actually making the 28t round (and oval) that I've wanted for the past year! So that's an option, too.

Buy the spider:
https://www.oneupcomponents.com/collections/switch/products/switch-sdm
then buy the ring:
https://www.oneupcomponents.com/collections/switch/products/switch-12-speed-rings

Wow, I'm glad I finally looked. I'm surprised I didn't hear about this sooner.


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## xprmntl (Oct 4, 2006)

syl3 said:


> 12 sp shimano chain is the only one that offers HyperGlide+ performance of smooth shifting under load (when used with shimano cogs). however it only accepts shimano chainrings.


Bad info. Multiple times in this thread, it has been pointed out that 11 and 12 speed narrow-wide chainrings work with the Shimano 12 spd chains, one just has to use an SRAM master link, and there is reported to be a new Shimano master link but no one to my knowledge has reported on how it works on here. For my 12spd XT cogset I'm running an absoluteBlack 11spd chainring on M8000 crankset and XTR 12spd chain with SRAM master link. No issues.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

xprmntl said:


> Bad info. Multiple times in this thread, it has been pointed out that 11 and 12 speed narrow-wide chainrings work with the Shimano 12 spd chains, one just has to use an SRAM master link, and there is reported to be a new Shimano master link but no one to my knowledge has reported on how it works on here. For my 12spd XT cogset I'm running an absoluteBlack 11spd chainring on M8000 crankset and XTR 12spd chain with SRAM master link. No issues.


Not bad info. Just incomplete.


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## brex17 (Jan 31, 2019)

You bought a new crankset and BB, why didn't you go with a Shimano 7100 or 8100 and then an AB oval Shimano ring?

That said, my son's bike is running an XX1 DUB crankset, AB oval chainring with XTR drivetrain, eagle link on XTR chain.
No issues on his bike whatsoever.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

brex17 said:


> You bought a new crankset and BB, why didn't you go with a Shimano 7100 or 8100 and then an AB oval Shimano ring?
> 
> That said, my son's bike is running an XX1 DUB crankset, AB oval chainring with XTR drivetrain, eagle link on XTR chain.
> No issues on his bike whatsoever.


Because I only saw the AB shimano 12sp ring, in boost spacing. I have an older bike, non-boost. I know it's not bad to use a non-boost ring, on a boost bike, because we spend a lot of time in the larger rings anyway. But if I put a boost ring on a non-boost bike, it wouldn't be optimal, right?

Or else I would have bought this, which is the AB oval for Shimano HG+ chains, but fits sram cranks.

https://absoluteblack.cc/sram-oval-...g-for-12spd-shimano-hyperglide-hg-plus-chain/

But boost spacing only.

But looks like I may just need to get an older Shimano XT FC-8000 crank, and BB, and use this https://absoluteblack.cc/oval-chainring-xt8000-96bcd-for-12spd-shimano-hyperglide-hg-plus-chain/

It appears a lot of people prefer the chainline of non-boost crank and rings, on boost frames anyway.


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## xprmntl (Oct 4, 2006)

Harold said:


> Not bad info. Just incomplete.


So incomplete is fine? Partial credit?

Argumentative.


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## xprmntl (Oct 4, 2006)

jdang307 said:


> Problem is, the chain is getting pushed out, sort of like when using the shimano quicklink on the chain, with a non-shimano 12sp ring. and it happens only on the oval is in "landscape" mode (not sure how to say it).


Where and when is the chain "getting pushed out?" I'm assuming this is happening on the chainring. Does this happen with all rear cogs or just some, and if some, which ones? Or does this happen at the spot where your master link (which one are you using?) contacts the AB chainring? What chainline are you currently running (measurement from center of bottom bracket to center of chainring)?

Changing chainline may or may not help, depending on what is going on.

If your chain is too short, you generally cannot add back a link. You can try, but usually the pin you pushed out won't hold well when pushed back in because the chain plates are so thin in 10-12 spds. I wouldn't risk it as it will likely fail at some time in the near future. Check your chain length following these instructions: https://dansbikeblog.com/article/how-calculate-correct-chain-length-shimano-12-speed-drivetrain.

And if you don't know, the proper orientation of an AB chainring is with the small hillock/tab on inside or the chainring oriented under the crank arm.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Yeah, I've been using a 9-11sp raceface chainring the past few months no problem with the Shimano XT 12sp chain. Just needed to swap out the Shimano link for a Sram Powerlock link, and it worked fine.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

xprmntl said:


> Where and when is the chain "getting pushed out?" I'm assuming this is happening on the chainring. Does this happen with all rear cogs or just some, and if some, which ones? Or does this happen at the spot where your master link (which one are you using?) contacts the AB chainring? What chainline are you currently running (measurement from center of bottom bracket to center of chainring)?
> 
> Changing chainline may or may not help, depending on what is going on.
> 
> ...


Chainring. It was similar to when I tried to use a Raceface 30t with the chain. That would actually work until the shimano quicklink hit the ring, and it would get pushed out. Swapped that out for a sram powerlock, and it worked great.

Chainline - whatever the GX dub cranks with 6mm offset provides. It seems like it's 49mm. My bike is not boost.

I've had bad experiences of adding links back manually, so not trying that. Good enough to get home if the chain breaks. But not much after that.

No, I was talking about adding some length back via another quick link. I still have my original chain segment I took off. Can add a segment back in via second quicklink/powerlock.

That said, this is not a new system. The XT 12sp was already installed. I'm only swapping out the crankset and chainring. So the chain length should be fine ... unless oval pushes it out that much. But I don't think so, from what I've read. My chain length should still be good.

As for orientation, it only fits one way on Sram direct mount. There is literally no way to get it wrong, I can think of.

That said, I was going to try and sell off my unused only mounted GX Cranks and BB, and get either the new XT 12sp cranks, or the Older XT FC-8000-1 crank, but with Harold's link above, I was able to buy the Oneup Switch carrier which fits my cranks, and a Shimano 12sp ring that mounts to the switch carrier. Pretty cool. Would also allow easy changing of rings. I do like to stay with Sram Dub, as it can be transported to any other bike, although Shimano does have PF and BSA, wihich covers almost all bikes. If the XTR cranks were lighter I'd spring for that, but the price per gram saved isn't even close to being worth it.


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## xprmntl (Oct 4, 2006)

jdang307 said:


> Chainring. It was similar to when I tried to use a Raceface 30t with the chain. That would actually work until the shimano quicklink hit the ring, and it would get pushed out. Swapped that out for a sram powerlock, and it worked great.


I was wondering where and when/what situations the AB chainring was having issues? Without that info, hard to diagnose. It sounds like you might have chain stretch/wear since it happened on a new ring that others have used with success (12spd shimano chain w/ sram powelink on 11 spd AB chainring). How much use on the chain? Are you diligent about chain cleaning and lubing? If the chain is too short, it'll wear quick in the large cog due to excess tension.



jdang307 said:


> No, I was talking about adding some length back via another quick link. I still have my original chain segment I took off. Can add a segment back in via second quicklink/powerlock.


If it was a chain length issue, you'd only see a problem the biggest rear cog and your derailleur cage would not have much throw left and the chain feels bound up, not jumpy on the chainring. To add a link with another quick link, you'd be running two quick links back to back (back to front?). Not sure if that would play nice with a drivetrain, but probably be okay?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

xprmntl said:


> So incomplete is fine? Partial credit?
> 
> Argumentative.


Frankly, putting an Eagle quick link on is a bodge. It's certainly a bodge that I'm using, but it's something I want to get away from doing.

What he said about the chain wasn't completely wrong, either. Now, granted, it primarily comes down to the quick link part of the Shimano 12spd chain that's the real issue and that part CAN be swapped. But, considering that jdang was already using one (would have been nice to know that at first), it puts an interesting spin on the discussion.

Brings to mind a person who was having problems with an e.13 ring that was STATED on the mfr's product page to work with HG+, but with a brand new install, was clearly NOT working correctly. After pulling more information from that poster about the scenario, it seems that e.13 was just completely full of $hit on the issue and didn't actually design the ring for HG+....they just assumed it was the same as Eagle and then slapped some words on their website and the packaging. That poster had video illustration that the chain was riding up over the chainring teeth on any old link, not just the quick link (which should be the obvious culprit). That made a nice illustration that not every brand's chainrings fit the exact same dimensions. Maybe QC on some can be a bit off. Maybe the cutting tool was starting to get a little worn, or an adjustment on the machine was a touch off, which resulted in the tight tolerances between the ring/chain to be too tight to be functional.

This is why I'm interested in solutions that work without hacks or bodges, like the Eagle quick link.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

xprmntl said:


> I was wondering where and when/what situations the AB chainring was having issues? Without that info, hard to diagnose. It sounds like you might have chain stretch/wear since it happened on a new ring that others have used with success (12spd shimano chain w/ sram powelink on 11 spd AB chainring). How much use on the chain? Are you diligent about chain cleaning and lubing? If the chain is too short, it'll wear quick in the large cog due to excess tension.
> 
> If it was a chain length issue, you'd only see a problem the biggest rear cog and your derailleur cage would not have much throw left and the chain feels bound up, not jumpy on the chainring. To add a link with another quick link, you'd be running two quick links back to back (back to front?). Not sure if that would play nice with a drivetrain, but probably be okay?


Relatively new chain. Cleaned and lubed. I hurt my knee shortly after. So maybe 100 miles at most. Literally.

So the AB 11 speed should work? I'll give it another shot. But it was not sinking in. I'll record it maybe.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Harold said:


> But, considering that jdang was already using one (would have been nice to know that at first), it puts an interesting spin on the discussion.


I thought I did, since I said this:



> Problem is, the chain is getting pushed out, sort of like when using the shimano quicklink on the chain, with a non-shimano 12sp ring. and it happens only on the oval is in "landscape" mode (not sure how to say it).


it was discussed so heavily in this thread, I thought that was enough. But I guess I could have been more explicit.


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## xprmntl (Oct 4, 2006)

Harold said:


> This is why I'm interested in solutions that work without hacks or bodges, like the Eagle quick link.


https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-SM-CN910-12-Speed-Quick-Link

I'd suggest you try this OEM, "non-bodge" and report back.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

xprmntl said:


> https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-SM-CN910-12-Speed-Quick-Link
> 
> I'd suggest you try this OEM, "non-bodge" and report back.


*eyeroll* read my participation in the whole thread and report back. This has been addressed.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Harold said:


> *eyeroll* read my participation in the whole thread and report back. This has been addressed.


Wait, you want some to read the thread before fixing your issue? :madman:


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

jdang307 said:


> Chainring. It was similar to when I tried to use a Raceface 30t with the chain. That would actually work until the *shimano quicklink* hit the ring, and it would get pushed out. Swapped that out for a sram powerlock, and it worked great.





xprmntl said:


> I was wondering where and when/what situations the AB chainring was having issues? Without that info, hard to diagnose. It sounds like you might have chain stretch/wear since it happened on a new ring that others have used with success (12spd shimano chain _*w/ sram powelink *_on 11 spd AB chainring). How much use on the chain? Are you diligent about chain cleaning and lubing? If the chain is too short, it'll wear quick in the large cog due to excess tension.


It's not hard to diagnose if you read whats posted.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

TwoTone said:


> Wait, you want some to read the thread before fixing your issue? :madman:


I'm not asking anyone here to fix anything for me. He's being an argumentative prick about a statement that wasn't wrong.

I'm just defending syl3's statement that a Shimano HG+ chain needs a chainring compatible with Shimano HG+. Yes, you can use many non-HG+ chainrings with an HG+ chain, IF you replace the Shimano quick link with an Eagle one. I'm doing it now because there were no HG+ compatible 28t chainrings on the market when I built up my bike. I just learned that OneUp is finally making their HG+ compatible chainrings that will fit my crank and I'm probably going to buy one as soon as I am comfortable that the change in chainline won't present problems with clearance with my frame. That way, I'll be able to use parts listed as fully compatible. I will assume that because OneUp took their time on their HG+ chainring release that they took their time to make sure they did it well, rather than half-assing it the way e.13 appears to have done.



TwoTone said:


> It's not hard to diagnose if you read whats posted.


Those quoted posts don't quite cover it.



jdang307 said:


> Small dilemma. I have an older non-boost bike, 2015 Bronson. Came with GXP cranks, 2x. Took the second smaller ring off, left the 104bcd ring on (didn't know it came off and I could mount a direct mount ring LOL) and a 30t ring, worked fine with Shimano 12sp XT (shifter, chain, cassette). Due to knee pain I wanted to change down to 165mm cranks, and try an oval chainring. Didn't find any GXP compatible 165mm cranks, so I bought GX dub crankset and BB.
> 
> I would buy the 12sp specific absolute black chainring, but I need non-boost, and it's only boost spacing.
> 
> ...


Note here that he mentions a lot of what he's using, but doesn't cover which quick link he's using until later. What we know is that the chain rides up on the teeth of the chainring, on the longer portion of the oval. He's using a ring that's listed as Eagle compatible, but not HG+ compatible and is focusing on the chainline question.



jdang307 said:


> Chainring. It was similar to when I tried to use a Raceface 30t with the chain. That would actually work until the shimano quicklink hit the ring, and it would get pushed out. Swapped that out for a sram powerlock, and it worked great....
> 
> ...That said, this is not a new system. The XT 12sp was already installed. I'm only swapping out the crankset and chainring. So the chain length should be fine ... unless oval pushes it out that much.


Now we learn that jdang installed an Eagle quick link on this chain some time ago when having issues with an Eagle-compatible RF ring and the Shimano quick link. He doesn't say explicitly, but I am assuming that the chain still has an Eagle quick link installed. Now, if his Shimano HG+ chain has an Eagle quick link installed and it's still riding on top of the teeth of the AB chainring that other people are using with success with the Shimano HG+ chain (plus Eagle quick link), it's logical to conclude there's something else going on. Because other people have used this combination with some success, I can understand why it might seem like there's something ELSE going on (chainline and chain length questions making some sense). But I don't think that's the case. I think the issue is with manufacturing tolerances. I have an older AB oval ring that I used on an 11spd drivetrain for awhile. It's STILL quite snug on the HG+ chain, even ignoring the obvious quick link compatibility issues. It's why I did not use an AB ring on my bike.

He ordered the OneUp Switch carrier and ring. Which comes in both regular spacing AND HG+ compatible tooth profile. I'd be extremely surprised if that didn't solve OP's problems.


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

I’d love it if Wolftooth would offer a Camo spider for the new Shimano cranks. And stainless rings specific to 12 speed while they’re at it. :^)


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GSPChilliwack said:


> I'd love it if Wolftooth would offer a Camo spider for the new Shimano cranks. And stainless rings specific to 12 speed while they're at it. :^)


Have you asked them?

They might have them in the pipeline already.


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

Harold said:


> Have you asked them?
> 
> They might have them in the pipeline already.


When I asked several months ago they said there were no plans to offer a Camo spider to fit the Shimano direct mount cranks. With wider availability of the new Shimano stuff, I'm hoping that will change.


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## xprmntl (Oct 4, 2006)

TwoTone said:


> Wait, you want some to read the thread before fixing your issue? :madman:


Speaking eyeroll, you've posted over a 100 times in this thread. You can assume that digging up what you are referring to is a bit beyond what anyone is going to invest. In my fairly extensive reading of this thread, I haven't seen a performance report on the arched style SM-CN910 shimano quicklink. Or maybe you took your own advice:


Harold said:


> you COULD have just put an Eagle quick link on an HG+ chain and not lost anything.


?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Harold said:


> I'm not asking anyone here to fix anything for me. He's being an argumentative prick about a statement that wasn't wrong..


It was sarcasm. Isn't he like the 5th person to give you advice without reading what you've already tried and your issue?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

GSPChilliwack said:


> I'd love it if Wolftooth would offer a Camo spider for the new Shimano cranks. And stainless rings specific to 12 speed while they're at it. :^)


How often are you replacing your chain ring? It's only $20 cheaper for a camo ring vs. the direct mount.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

So this is what it's doing. My first oval, so not sure but it doesn't appear to be a "width" issue, because the links usually end up fitting once the "teeth" get to the top of the rotation. So weird. Not sure what I'm doing wrong if this is supposed to work.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

TwoTone said:


> It was sarcasm. Isn't he like the 5th person to give you advice without reading what you've already tried and your issue?


Fair enough. And yeah, he pretty much is.



jdang307 said:


> So this is what it's doing. My first oval, so not sure but it doesn't appear to be a "width" issue, because the links usually end up fitting once the "teeth" get to the top of the rotation. So weird. Not sure what I'm doing wrong if this is supposed to work.
> 
> View attachment 1321517


Yeah, definitely not a quick link problem. It's not altogether different from what's going on with this guy's chainring. Looks like it's just plain incompatible.

https://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-...-not-compatible-shimano-12-speed-1127939.html


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## xprmntl (Oct 4, 2006)

TwoTone said:


> Wait, you want some to read the thread before fixing your issue? :madman:





jdang307 said:


> So this is what it's doing. My first oval, so not sure but it doesn't appear to be a "width" issue, because the links usually end up fitting once the "teeth" get to the top of the rotation. So weird. Not sure what I'm doing wrong if this is supposed to work.
> 
> View attachment 1321517


Yeah, that's obviously messed up. I'd send that pic to absoluteBlack and see what they say.


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## andynunn (Apr 23, 2007)

Posting this again from the other referenced thread. People, myself included, had these issues when the XTR stuff was released without the crankset availability. Manufacturers assumed that because the spacings were the same for Eagle and HG+, that their existing 12 speed chainrings were compatible. MOST are not. Some work OK with the Eagle link.
"Exactly what is happening is that the chain does not seat down fully between the teeth. As more links catch on the ring at the wrong height on the teeth you eventually reach a point when the next link is too short to reach the next tooth and the chain rides up and over the chainring. The shimano roller links have a chamfer that is a larger diameter than other chains. This fits into a recess in the chainring on a correctly designed ring. If the chamfer isn't there it doesn't work."


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

I have a old slx 700 cassette on a spare wheel, what will happen if I swap it out for my 9100 xtr Microspine wheel set up I have on my bike now?? 

thanks


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## huckleberry hound (Feb 27, 2015)

Dave Mac said:


> I have a old slx 700 cassette on a spare wheel, what will happen if I swap it out for my 9100 xtr Microspine wheel set up I have on my bike now??
> 
> thanks


The spacing spacing of the cogs are different so it won't work.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

huckleberry hound said:


> The spacing spacing of the cogs are different so it won't work.


thanks for the reply, so are you saying the shifting wont work, or the teeth on the cogs wont work with the chain??


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## huckleberry hound (Feb 27, 2015)

Dave Mac said:


> thanks for the reply, so are you saying the shifting wont work, or the teeth on the cogs wont work with the chain??


I'm saying it won't shift properly. The 12 speed shifter pulls 3.3mm of cable per shift and the 11 speed shifter pulls 3.6mm per shift. The cassette pitch (distance between cogs) for 12 speed is 3.58mm and for 11 speed is 3.86mm.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

huckleberry hound said:


> I'm saying it won't shift properly. The 12 speed shifter pulls 3.3mm of cable per shift and the 11 speed shifter pulls 3.6mm per shift. The cassette pitch (distance between cogs) for 12 speed is 3.58mm and for 11 speed is 3.86mm.


thank you so much for the detail answer I really appreciated it, :thumbsup:


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

So without going thru 10 pages can someone tell me of there is a e13 compatible Shimano 12s chainring available?

Thank you.


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## luckyguy19 (Jun 28, 2017)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> So without going thru 10 pages can someone tell me of there is a e13 compatible Shimano 12s chainring available?
> 
> Thank you.


One up has them in round or oval with their Switch system.


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## xprmntl (Oct 4, 2006)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> So without going thru 10 pages can someone tell me of there is a e13 compatible Shimano 12s chainring available?


It is not clear what you're asking. What are all the drivetrain components that you are trying to mate? Do you want a chainring that will fit on Shimano 12s crankset (if so, which one) that will be compatible with a e13 12s cassette? Or do you want a chainring you can use on an e13 crankset because you want to use with a Shimano 12s cassette?


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

I want a Shimano compatible chainring that fits an e13 crankset for use with 12speed Shimano cassette.


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

luckyguy19 said:


> One up has them in round or oval with their Switch system.


 Thank you this will work if its the only option.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> I want a Shimano compatible chainring that fits an e13 crankset for use with 12speed Shimano cassette.


https://www.garbaruk.com/e13-e-thirteen-round.html

They claim it is. No experience though.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

tuckerjt07 said:


> https://www.garbaruk.com/e13-e-thirteen-round.html
> 
> They claim it is. No experience though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


 Thank you that will work for me. I'll report back on the performance.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> Thank you this will work if its the only option.


I'm liking the OneUp Switch, fwiw. I got one for my RF cranks because OneUp is the only company making a 28t chainring compatible with Shimano HG+. And FWIW, it looks to me from reading their marketing language that the reason it took them so long to make it was because they wanted it to work equally well on Eagle AND Shimano drivetrains. They didn't want SKU bloat, so they wanted to sell the same 12spd chainring for either system.


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## luckyguy19 (Jun 28, 2017)

Harold said:


> I'm liking the OneUp Switch, fwiw. I got one for my RF cranks because OneUp is the only company making a 28t chainring compatible with Shimano HG+. And FWIW, it looks to me from reading their marketing language that the reason it took them so long to make it was because they wanted it to work equally well on Eagle AND Shimano drivetrains. They didn't want SKU bloat, so they wanted to sell the same 12spd chainring for either system.


This is exactly why I bought the One Up Switch. I have GX eagle now and it works great.  I have my XTR/XT parts coming in soon and didn't want to buy another chain ring for my Eagle cranks.


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## brex17 (Jan 31, 2019)

Absolute Black has 28 tooth ovals for Shimano 12 speed.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

brex17 said:


> Absolute Black has 28 tooth ovals for Shimano 12 speed.


Where? Not for my crank. 30t smallest. Also, I don't want oval.

https://absoluteblack.cc/raceface-b...g-for-12spd-shimano-hyperglide-hg-plus-chain/


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Harold said:


> Where? Not for my crank. 30t smallest. Also, I don't want oval.
> 
> https://absoluteblack.cc/raceface-b...g-for-12spd-shimano-hyperglide-hg-plus-chain/


Blackspire does a 28t for cinch shimano 12. I don't think any stores have them, but you can buy direct. I need to order a 30t.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> Blackspire does a 28t for cinch shimano 12. I don't think any stores have them, but you can buy direct. I need to order a 30t.


Blackspire parts are a PITA to get in the US because you have to order direct from them (in Canada) and deal with the extra ship time. I have a bash guard of theirs on one of my bikes and it's plenty good, but was harder to get than a comparable MRP product (which I have on a different bike). I also used to use some of their pedals. Not anymore because of the cost of getting service parts for them. Looks like their HG+ rings are fairly new. It's good to know they exist. I'd have bought one a year ago if they were the only option at the time.

But with the OneUp Switch options available, that works better for me.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

They are hard to get in Canada too. I ordered at my local shop. gave up after 3 weeks and bought from chain reaction for 1/2 the price. sigh. haha. I have 3 sets of sub 420 pedals I got when that same local shop went under. I got the 3rd set mostly because it was cheaper than buying a rebuild kit (although I have not needed to rebuild any yet).

It does look like the new 12s are not actually "out" yet though. I've emailed them to confirm (I expect a response sometime in august...)


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

smashysmashy said:


> They are hard to get in Canada too. I ordered at my local shop. gave up after 3 weeks and bought from chain reaction for 1/2 the price. sigh. haha. I have 3 sets of sub 420 pedals I got when that same local shop went under. I got the 3rd set mostly because it was cheaper than buying a rebuild kit (although I have not needed to rebuild any yet).
> 
> It does look like the new 12s are not actually "out" yet though. I've emailed them to confirm (I expect a response sometime in august...)


I thought it looked that the new rings weren't being sold yet.

Yeah, the Sub 420 pedals are the ones I had (well, still have...just don't use anymore). Bearing/bushing kits weren't too bad, but when I bent the spindles and I saw how expensive those were...yeah, no thanks. Bought some DMR Vaults instead, but not until I checked the cost of service parts for them.


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

tuckerjt07 said:


> https://www.garbaruk.com/e13-e-thirteen-round.html
> 
> They claim it is. No experience though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


 Ya nevermind on the Garbaruk I have read about some shipping nightmares and I'm not that patient..


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

So is the 9100 chain worth the extra money over the 8100?


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> So is the 9100 chain worth the extra money over the 8100?


It used to be the shifter and the chain were two places where the upgrade was worth it. I have not read the same among reviews of the current 1x12 Shimano. Interesting questions


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

WoodstockMTB said:


> It used to be the shifter and the chain were two places where the upgrade was worth it. I have not read the same among reviews of the current 1x12 Shimano. Interesting questions


Shifter is definitely worth it.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

I seem to remember a shimano rep saying if he upgraded one thing it would be the chain.
But then again that's from a Shimano rep.

I can get the 8100 for $38 but can't find the 9100 for less then $60.

If it affects performance I'll pay up.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Shifter is definitely worth it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Right...I should have completed my thought out loud about not having read if upgrading the chain was still worth it.


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## xprmntl (Oct 4, 2006)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> So is the 9100 chain worth the extra money over the 8100?


M9100 has chromizing treatment to the roller link plates which makes them harder and more wear resistant than the M8100 (both have Sil-Tec low friction treatment), and the hollow links of the 9100 have a stronger connection to the outer plates. M9100 also has more polished inner surface and is ~10-12 g lighter depending on length.


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

Thanks. Looks like I'll go m9100 initially then maybe drop down after it wears out so I can compare.


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

So I'm able to get it to skip on double down shifts. Where should I start troubleshooting?

I feel like I have it about 90% dialed but not perfect. 

Normally I would take it to lbs but right now it's appointment only.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> So I'm able to get it to skip on double down shifts. Where should I start troubleshooting?
> 
> I feel like I have it about 90% dialed but not perfect.


 Do you mean it is going down 3 instead of two? Too little cable tension. 
Or do you mean it is skipping/clunky shifting? Make sure your chain engraving faces outward. Start at the smallest gear, loosen the cable bolt, tighten cable by pulling out slack by hand and retighten bolt. Then check that indexing is more or less working, ie one click one shift with little delay. Tweak using barrel adjuster. Also if not down shifting cleanly could be chain tension issue related to chain length or tension screw adjustment using upper pulley wheel as marked on derailleur cage. But I'm guessing your cable just stretched and you need a little more cable tension.


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

foggnm said:


> Do you mean it is going down 3 instead of two? Too little cable tension.
> Or do you mean it is skipping/clunky shifting? Make sure your chain engraving faces outward. Start at the smallest gear, loosen the cable bolt, tighten cable by pulling out slack by hand and retighten bolt. Then check that indexing is more or less working, ie one click one shift with little delay. Tweak using barrel adjuster. Also if not down shifting cleanly could be chain tension issue related to chain length or tension screw adjustment using upper pulley wheel as marked on derailleur cage. But I'm guessing your cable just stretched and you need a little more cable tension.


 Yes just a clunky shift the kind where you wouldn't want to be under full power when it happens.
Its not all the time maybe 20%. It's probably cable stretch though.
Thanks I'll check all this tomorrow and report back.


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> So is the 9100 chain worth the extra money over the 8100?


Probably not. Take a look at the 11-speed Shimano chains in this test. Not much difference in durability between 105, Ultegra and Dura-Ace. https://cyclingtips.com/2019/12/the...-and-efficiency-tested/#most-durable-11-speed


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> Yes just a clunky shift the kind where you wouldn't want to be under full power when it happens.
> Its not all the time maybe 20%. It's probably cable stretch though.
> Thanks I'll check all this tomorrow and report back.


 Chain was good. I did as you advised loosened the cable pulled it tight. The indexing seems about right. 
Seems i was at a bad angle when setting the b screw. I thought it was even with the line but it wasn't.

So that got it to about 95% happy. But there's a slight tink tink pinging ever so softly in 6th gear. Cant seem to fix it with barrel adjust. 
I dont feel it with my feet and its not harming anything but it's there. And it annoys me.


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> So that got it to about 95% happy. But there's a slight tink tink pinging ever so softly in 6th gear. Cant seem to fix it with barrel adjust.
> I dont feel it with my feet and its not harming anything but it's there. And it annoys me.


 12 speed does have a smaller margin of error. Take a look at your drivetrain (from behind, looking forward)while it is in the 6th gear and see that the chain isn't trying to shift up or down. Also make sure the quick link is all the way tight. Make sure your clutch is on. Sometimes you'll find a drivetrain gets quieter after a couple hours of riding as the chain and cogs and chairing get used to each other. If you don't have a bike stand have a friend hold up the rear wheel while you slowly turn the cranks with your hand in 6th gear and look for any jerky movement. Also make sure the chain is properly routed through the pulleys.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Anyone use a 9120 rear Der In a 1x setup with 51t Cassette? 

It says it's 2x 45t specific but can't imagine it's that different.


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## TurboKoo (Mar 27, 2010)

I don’t use but I have had both of them in hand and there is quite a big difference.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

wildh said:


> Anyone use a 9120 rear Der In a 1x setup with 51t Cassette?
> 
> It says it's 2x 45t specific but can't imagine it's that different.


It IS visually different from the other two.









XTR M9100 Series | SHIMANO BIKE COMPONENT | SHIMANO BIKE-US


To Build Closer Relationships between People, Nature, and Bicycles. We believe in the power of cycling to create a better world as we move forward. We inspire all people to enjoy our products in their everyday lives and where they take them.




bike.shimano.com





FWIW, I have the 9100 GS. Meant for 1x with the 10-45 cassette, and how I use it.

So yeah, Shimano has historically been somewhat conservative with their derailleur specs. But when talking about changes in the max cog spec, a 6t difference is pretty big. The max cog spec is the real operative spec here, along with the derailleur's ability to take up extra slack from a 10t difference in chainrings.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

It'd be interesting interesting to see if anyone has run the 9120 in a 1 x 51t configuration.

Theoretically small ring small cog difference would be bigger than on a 1x system and the big big be very close. I'm sure they've optimized the 9100 sgs for 1x vs 9120. But I'm just curious if it's massively different in application.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

wildh said:


> It'd be interesting interesting to see if anyone has run the 9120 in a 1 x 51t configuration.
> 
> Theoretically small ring small cog difference would be bigger than on a 1x system and the big big be very close. I'm sure they've optimized the 9100 sgs for 1x vs 9120. But I'm just curious if it's massively different in application.


You're ignoring the derailleur's capability to clear the big cog at all.

Total capacity requirements for the 2x with 10-45 and a 10t difference at the chainring is greater than for the 10-51 in a 1x configuration. So the 9120 sacrifices some big cog clearance and gains some extra chain uptake.

So for a 1x 10-51, your capacity requirements are just the cassette. 41t.

In a 2x on the 10-45, you add the differences. 10t up front. 35t at the back. 45t total. Total capacity is only a couple teeth different. But it's accomplished with a max cog size of 45t.

Another part of this that isn't showing up in the specs is how the b-gap follows the range of the cassette. The 9100 sgs is MEANT to follow the cog spacing on a 10-51 cassette, whereas the 9120 sgs is MEANT to follow the cog spacing of the 10-45t cassette. This is where it can be useful to compare to the XT and SLX ranges. The 9100 sgs, 8100 sgs and 7100 sgs derailleurs "can" be used with the 10-45 cassette, but since they're MEANT for 10-51, the b-gap changes over the range of the cassette. That likely comes with a subtle reduction in performance. Most prob won't notice it. But that's where the 9100 gs comes in, as it's meant to hold that b-gap across the narrower range cassette. And the 9120 sgs is similar in that regard. It's meant for the narrower range cassette and tighter cog spacing of the 10-45.

Forcing it into a 1x 10-51 application MIGHT work, but if it does, it will likely result in reduction in shift quality. This is why the aftermarket companies started offering different b-links and cages for the 10spd and 11spd shimano derailleurs when folks started to push them past their stated capacity specs. For 12spd, Shimano basically did a number of those things FOR people already, but by selling totally different derailleurs instead of derailleur mod kits.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

dont do it. i believe the paralellogram path is different. ive learned the hard way more than once not to hack shimanos compatibility matrix.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

After all of the good explanations I'd agree, it's not worth trying. Mostly was just curious given the shortage of derailleurs.


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## FactoryMatt (Apr 25, 2018)

check ebay


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

Harold said:


> Another part of this that isn't showing up in the specs is how the b-gap follows the range of the cassette. The 9100 sgs is MEANT to follow the cog spacing on a 10-51 cassette, whereas the 9120 sgs is MEANT to follow the cog spacing of the 10-45t cassette. This is where it can be useful to compare to the XT and SLX ranges. The 9100 sgs, 8100 sgs and 7100 sgs derailleurs "can" be used with the 10-45 cassette, but since they're MEANT for 10-51, the b-gap changes over the range of the cassette. That likely comes with a subtle reduction in performance. Most prob won't notice it. But that's where the 9100 gs comes in, as it's meant to hold that b-gap across the narrower range cassette. And the 9120 sgs is similar in that regard. It's meant for the narrower range cassette and tighter cog spacing of the 10-45.
> 
> Forcing it into a 1x 10-51 application MIGHT work, but if it does, it will likely result in reduction in shift quality. This is why the aftermarket companies started offering different b-links and cages for the 10spd and 11spd shimano derailleurs when folks started to push them past their stated capacity specs. For 12spd, Shimano basically did a number of those things FOR people already, but by selling totally different derailleurs instead of derailleur mod kits.


great info, thanks Harold


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

It's very different. the 9120 is more similar to the 11 speed derailleur.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

wildh said:


> 9120


9120 has a smaller offset of the guide pulley to make it compatible with 2x12. It's not going to perform well on a 10-51.


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