# Are e-Bikes harder to handle for smaller women?



## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

This weekend I was riding with a group of friends. Half of them on e-bikes. We got the top of a long grind, at least for me on my non-assisted bike (2,000 ft). The main downhill starts and it's a black rated trail that's rocky and really loose right now. You have to be on your toes. There are some quick 2' ish rock drops that you just hit at speed and clear. It was my first time down it. The lead rider who knows the trail well went first. I followed. It was an arm pumper that you wanted to end at some point, but super fun. We get to the bottom and some one behind us rides by and tells us a women riding in our group crashed and she's hurt. It was the lead guys wife who was riding an e-bike as well. Someone in our group was behind her and was with her and called us on the phone. She was able to walk, but thought she may have broke her shoulder. Her husband walked back up, got her bike, and helped her down as others where doing.
I rode down another 5 miles to get to my truck which could carry all the bikes and drove back up on a fire road to get to them. As I loaded all the bikes in the truck, I noticed how heavy her e-bike was. Even heavier that her husbands. They went to the emergency room and I took their bikes home with me. She was lucky to not have broken anything, but was really banged up from landing on a pile of rocks. I unloaded the bikes and put them in my garage. Her e-bike (not sure the brand, it had dark lettering on a dark paint?) was definitely heavier. I weighed it and it was about 55 lbs. Her husbands Yeti 160E was about 50 lbs. She's a solid enduro ride on her non-power bike, but she say earlier in the ride that she doesn't feel like she is comfortable maneuvering the e-bike on tight trails yet...
She's a petite 5'-6 ish that probably weighs around 120 lbs. She's riding a bike that weighs 55 lbs. almost half her weight. Her husband is about 6'-2" and weighs probably 210 lbs His Yeti is 50 lbs., only a quarter of his weight.
It's not like you can say I ride a small size frame so I just need a small motor and small battery..... I personally think the bike is way too heavy for her and told her husband I think he should get her the lightest pedal assist that's available.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

It's only heavy when you have to lift it.

For riding it doesn't make much of a difference

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I briefly considered an e-bike for my petite wife but the weight of a large machine scared me. It's just more to manage and I think likely to lead to bad things happening. 110# women don't have a lot of upper body strength typically.

If I were to put her on an e-bike it would be the lightest thing I could find and a lower power bike, to better match her weight.

It was inconsiderate of her husband if he purchased her a heavy inexpensive e-bike.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> I briefly considered an e-bike for my petite wife but the weight of a large machine scared me. It's just more to manage and I think likely to lead to bad things happening. 110# women don't have a lot of upper body strength typically.
> 
> If I were to put her on an e-bike it would be the lightest thing I could find and a lower power bike, to better match her weight.
> 
> It was inconsiderate of her husband if he purchased her a heavy inexpensive e-bike.


That's kind of what I feel, though they have only had them for about 4 months and are new to e-bikes. They bought both used thinking they will just try it out. I'm sure they are in the future for my wife and I, but we have two kids in college $$$$$$. I'm spending more on them than I ever imagined 😪


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

rod9301 said:


> It's only heavy when you have to lift it.
> 
> For riding it doesn't make much of a difference
> 
> Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


I know from riding motocross for years that lighter bikes are way easier to handle.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Full power bikes are pretty darn heavy. A 50+ lb ebike is really heavy for a small female. No getting around that. Many cannot even lift them up to put them on a rack. Lighter bikes like the Orbea Rise and Specialized Levo SL are much lighter, lighter feeling on the trail, and can even be pedaled without power. They handle far better too. I have owned both and ridden several. Personally, I do not like the heavy bike son the trail. They feel piggish.


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

While ebikes are heavier than non ebikes, there's no way to now if it was the weight of the bike that caused her to crash. Smaller folks ride moto's that weigh over #200.


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## Shane5001 (Dec 18, 2013)

I bought my wife a Liv ebike, prob 55lb ish. I think the weight has contributed to multiple low speed crashes, especially maneuvering around sharp turns. She's 5'0," also petite with very little upper body strength. The positive's definitely outweigh the negatives (low speed fall overs) as we can now ride together. I've prob put a half dozen rides on her bike as well, the handling is different, I'm actually quicker downhill on my non ebike. And I can see where she get's into trouble as even I have to use a lot more body english to maneuver the bike.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

My ebike handles like cheap/budget XC bike. It calls for the rider to be defensive, getting weight back. The ones I demo'd were similar. They pedal quickly, and love making quick work of climbs, but tend to want to hug the ground. The extra weight adds to stability when going over bumps, not getting bounced around as much.

Mine came with some flimsy Rekon+ 2.8 plus tires, and it didn't really like to be pushed hard. The front tire also liked to flutter under heavy braking.

I blame the geo for it. The chainstays are absurdly long. Even 5mm of CS length makes a noticeable change in weight distro between front and rear wheel, but some ebikes have 20-30mm longer CS than comparable enduro bikes (some ebikes have 465mm). The 68° HA doesn't help either. There's a lot of weight on the front. I have to be prepared for drops and jumps, to prevent the front from dropping too quick and throwing me OTB.

Honestly, it's like the old 29ers from 10+ years ago, when people said they steered like a bus compared to their more refined 26" bikes. These bikes had addictive traits to them though. A bit of refinement, and they could end up more of a norm. MX wheels are helping to tame the long CS, managing to keep CS and WB combos closer to the best enduro bikes. 435mm CS and 1230mm WB is my fav combo, hence why I'm eyeing the Marin Alpine Trail E2 and Polygon Mt Bromo N7 for my short skinny self.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

They are a lot worse in slow technical/rocky sections. I always tell lighter riders and newer riders to check out the lighter lower-power bikes. For many of us experienced riders who are not petite, it is not a big issue, but even I can tell that they would be problematic for those who are not as strong and not as experienced. My full-power was a pretty nimble and "light" one at 46 lbs. Some are 50+ and feel like chunky dirt bikes without the power. My Levo SL is 40 lbs and feels very different. The motor and battery are mainly where the weight savings come from and it handles so differently with 7-10 lbs of weight missing.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

While weight makes a bigger difference the smaller the rider is, the rider just needs to understand it’s a different style of bike and needs to be ridden differently. Two is the most athletic badass women I know ride 230lb dirt bikes at a very high level and use their skill to overcome height and strength. Saying a women NEEDS a lighter ebike to ride technical stuff is silly. 

Video proof smaller people can shred ebikes. This kid is 14 and light as a feather. 

Also the fastest women in the world (enduro) is 5’1” and well under 120lbs. And she can shred an ebike plenty well. 


__
http://instagr.am/p/CfeHHxdruXR/


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

RBoardman said:


> While weight makes a bigger difference the smaller the rider is, the rider just needs to understand it’s a different style of bike and needs to be ridden differently. Two is the most athletic badass women I know ride 230lb dirt bikes at a very high level and use their skill to overcome height and strength. Saying a women NEEDS a lighter ebike to ride technical stuff is silly.
> 
> Video proof smaller people can shred ebikes. This kid is 14 and light as a feather.
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about bad ass top world cup racers or super talented 14 year olds. Silly? Really.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

rangeriderdave said:


> While ebikes are heavier than non ebikes, there's no way to now if it was the weight of the bike that caused her to crash. Smaller folks ride moto's that weigh over #200.


I don't think it was the weight, more just the trail is in bad shape. Loose and rocky. I even had a foot down save on a flat loose turn. She's ridden this trail plenty of times and at least a few on the e-bike. I'm just talking physics in general. The heavier objects are, the more force it requires to stop or change direction.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

There are people posting in the Transition Relay thread who believe it's general physics that bike handling would improve by moving the battery/motor unit from their bike to their backpack. They imply that it makes sense if you don't ride your bike like a passenger.


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## Cardy George (Dec 3, 2020)

Varaxis said:


> There are people posting in the Transition Relay thread who believe it's general physics that bike handling would improve by moving the battery/motor unit from their bike to their backpack. They imply that it makes sense if you don't ride your bike like a passenger.


The hell it does. I have to carry a significant amount of weight in a bag once a week and there is no way I can rail the same corners like I do without it. The extra mass carries me off in to the bushes every time.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

You are just moving the center of mass higher which means it has to travel further when you lean side to side. That will slow your ability to turn side to side.


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I personally think the bike is way too heavy for her and told her husband I think he should get her the lightest pedal assist that's available.


I'm glad your friend is going to be ok. 

On to your question. Well... yeah... a heavier bike is harder for anyone to throw around on the trails. On the other hand, the added mass can help smooth out some roughness. It's the same whether you're a man, a woman, 120 pounds, or 200. 

My eMTB tips the scales at 48 pounds. I find it a very controllable bike, But when it's time to throw it on my back and climb up rock slab, then it feels pretty heavy. I can't see a 120 pounder hefting that thing around. 

I have a couple "svelte" friends that I ride with. Invariably, they can ride with more assist and STILL use less battery than me. When I ride with my more portly friends, they use up more battery.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Varaxis said:


> There are people posting in the Transition Relay thread who believe it's general physics that bike handling would improve by moving the battery/motor unit from their bike to their backpack. They imply that it makes sense if you don't ride your bike like a passenger.


Did you actually want to engage on the perspective I expressed there? Or were you just so overwhelmed by its power that you felt like you needed to spread the gospel elsewhere? 

Anyways.

If your vehicle is several-times your mass, then its CoM is primarily what determines the behavior of the overall vehicle, and the squishy thing atop it can mostly be disregarded. That's the situation with, say, a twig riding a Gold Wing.

If the squishy thing is actually several-times the mass of the vehicle, then how the squishy thing manipulates the stilt-like interface underneath it is what determines the behavior of the overall vehicle. You are the CoM, and you are dynamically balancing yourself over that stilt-like interface in a way that nullifies the forces (gravity, cornering load, etc.) that the overall vehicle is subject-to. That's the situation of any bike/e-bike. When you're putting the hammer down on a flat, it's your bike that'll weave left-and-right over the trail, not so much your CoM. See: every MTB tire track on a trail. Nobody is weaving down the trail like a drunkard; it's only the bike underneath being moved in relation to you as you dynamically balance and rebalance.

So let's take a leap and ponder a question: why can many roadies achieve true trackstands (i.e. no rolling) on a road bike, while pretty much nobody can on a sportbike?

And what does that imply about dynamically balancing and rebalancing in the sort of challenging terrain that you can't just throw velocity at and rely on compliance (tire and suspension)?

To the topic of this thread without speculating for a population I can't speak for: a heavier 2-wheeled vehicle requires a proportionally stronger core to dynamically balance. This is why serious sportbike and dirt bike riders have jacked torsos/cores, and not-so-much similar-level MTBers.

A heavier eMTB is probably going to be harder to handle compared to a lighter MTB in some situations for all riders, but the challenge might be exacerbated for smaller (and proportionally weaker) riders.


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## JillRide45 (Dec 11, 2015)

As a 5’6” 110 lbs woman I will comment. There is a huge difference trying to move a heavy ebike around on the trail. No amount of body movement will move the bike. Also most women carry the majority of their weight low and do not have as much upper body strength as men. Sure a small woman can ride a heavy bike but it is more like hold on and go. I had a Levo (46 lbs) for 2 years rode everything and loved it. Traded for a Levo SL (37 lbs) the day it came out, much better for me in every way possible. With that being said I have crashed on every bike. 


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## slomtbr (Oct 9, 2010)

Tall BMX'r said:


> You are just moving the center of mass higher which means it has to travel further when you lean side to side. That will slow your ability to turn side to side.











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DOES THE WEIGHT OF A BIKE AFFECT THE ANGLE AT WHICH IT LEANS IN A BEND? This seems like a reasonable question: if you take a bend at a certain speed when two up, does the bike lean more than it does when one up? Well the answer is NO. What does affect the Lean [...]




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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

slomtbr said:


> Does the weight of a bike affect the angle it leans in a bend? - iAM SmartRoad, Carlisle & West Cumbria
> 
> 
> DOES THE WEIGHT OF A BIKE AFFECT THE ANGLE AT WHICH IT LEANS IN A BEND? This seems like a reasonable question: if you take a bend at a certain speed when two up, does the bike lean more than it does when one up? Well the answer is NO. What does affect the Lean [...]
> ...


But when bend changes (transitioning from one turn/bend to an opposite bend) the inertia (mass) is even greater (with heavier rider and bike) and requires more force to achieve an equilibrium of forces in the opposite bend. This will take longer to get to the bend force equilibrium, thus slowing reaction time.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Not e-bikes, but I will add that I think the proportional weight differential is, I think, a big reason that I love fat biking in the winter, and my wife hates it. To me, winter biking feels a whole lot like summer biking, but a fat bike is proportionally much lighter for me. But for her, it's like trying to maneuver a barge. We have the exact same bike, more or less. She's very bike fit, loves riding in the summer, loves being outside in the winter, etc., so it seems to come down to just the bike.

In the world cup XC racing scene, a hardtail is much more common for female athletes than male. I assume this is the case, again, because of the proportion of bike weight versus rider weight. Saving a couple pounds when you weigh 120lbs is much more meaningful than when you weight 155lbs.


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## slomtbr (Oct 9, 2010)

Tall BMX'r said:


> But when bend changes (transitioning from one turn/bend to an opposite bend) the inertia (mass) is even greater (with heavier rider and bike) and requires more force to achieve an equilibrium of forces in the opposite bend. This will take longer to get to the bend force equilibrium, thus slowing reaction time.











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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

slomtbr said:


> Dispelling Motorcycle Myths
> 
> 
> Introducing the stories behind Yamaha Motor's technologies.
> ...


Keep digging  Motorcycles are completely different in weight and horse power. I raced motocross and BMX. You're not telling me anything I don't already know. Just keep digging up motorcycle articles made for elementary school? Which effects the turn more mass or inertia?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

People talking about a couple of pounds of weight loss being noticeable on the bike, yet conventional wisdom says put water, tools, and spares on the bike, not on the body.

I don't recall hearing any agreement among people rocking hip packs stating that they prefer weight on the body rather than their bike, to make the bike feel lighter and handle better.

In fact, there's videos like this that suggest strapping dead weight to the bike's frame improves suspension performance and DH stability.






In this thread's case, the facts are that the lady was on a long DH with rocks and drops, wasn't comfortable on their ebike compared to enduro bike, and was in the back, on an ebike that was 5+ lbs heavier than husband's super nice Yeti emtb. Yea, you can blame the bike for being uncomfortable on tight stuff (lacking confidence? fit?), but was it really that tight on this trail where they fell? Sounded like a truck was driven up to the top to collect the heavy ebike and hurt rider. I know I might think weight is a problem when loading up an ebike onto a truck, but weight wouldn't be what I'd think to blame when someone says their ebike is uncomfortable compared to their enduro bike.

I'd suspect that she got one of the lowest cost ebikes, like mine, which just rode like a cheap novice-level thing with crap geo. The smaller size's shorter front-center makes them even more OTB prone than larger sizes, while the ebikes longer rear-center (CS length) makes this OTB sensation even worse. It's no wonder they feel vastly less confidence inspiring and dangerous. Getting the bike's weight distro right through geo (WB and CS balancing) matters even more for short riders and longer WB bikes, as long WB bikes don't respond to weight shifts as strongly and shorties just don't have much body length to move around with. I'd totally take a heavy bike from Canfield's line-up, over some superlight whip like from Revel, just to get the geo that better suits shorties.

A lightweight flickable bike doesn't help with handling much when you pull up the front wheel and it drops right back down in an instant, due to its front-heavy geo. Fun/enjoyment generally improves with less weight, but drop weight on a flawed geo bike and you'd prob just get false confidence. Try a slow wheelie off a drop and... _brace for faceplant_. I'll take shorter CS, or slacker HA, longer fork, and extra reach to ditch that OTB sensation. There's a reason that hanging ass back works for us when things get gnarly--it's because there's excessive weight on the front. More weight on the front is not a good thing for shorties. Maybe it is for big folk who have a super long WB, but the same CS as smaller sizes, but the problem is reversed for shorties.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm not blaming anything or anybody for the crash. They just happen, and most of the time it's due to a front wash out. It's definitely more about weight distribution. A person's body weight is a variable that is more dynamic than the weight of the bike. Moving your body fore and aft effects the way the bike turns. Wearing a backpack will move your weight aft. To compensate you bend your elbows more and ride more forward to control the turn. Lower weight adds to stability going straight and in turns. The amount of lean in a turn is directly affected by the width of the tire. The wider the tire, the more the lean required. With wider Motorcycle tires the rider needs to lean further over, and in some cases lean their upper body over even more. With a mtb with relatively narrower tires not as much lean is required and the rider can actually lean away from the turn with their upper body. There are a lot of moving parts to these equations. So much so that they can't be generalized. Trail. HTA, wheel base, CoM, width of tire, etc.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

So the short answer is yes- a heavy e-bike is far more difficult for a petite woman to handle on a trail...especially a technical trail.


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## slomtbr (Oct 9, 2010)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Keep digging  Motorcycles are completely different in weight and horse power. I raced motocross and BMX. You're not telling me anything I don't already know. Just keep digging up motorcycle articles made for elementary school? Which effects the turn more mass or inertia?


I only see this as an interesting discussion.
There's now way I'm going to argue that heavier eMTBs don't require more effort to change their direction - I have one, and I go back and forth between my 27lb MTB and my 53lb eMTB all the time.
To me (and my wife who rides a 52lb eMTB), the bigger issue is when the rider has to quickly dismount and walk a difficult section. Without the opportunity to plan the dismount, things can get dicey. As for slow-speed crashes, our rule of thumb is to maintain a brisk walking pace at a minimum.


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

Well, I think this topic is very important as guys want their wife's/girlfriends to ride with them and a EMTB is a great equalizer to make that happen. But there is a learning curve not only for gals but everyone. In my situation, my wife and I have been trail riding for decades and well experienced. Three seasons ago we decide to add EMTB to the plate, but also decided to keep and continue to ride our pedals bikes. Both of us got Orbea Wild Ebikes, me XL and her Medium. Her bike weighs a little over 50, she is around 135, the bike fits her good, stand over, reach, et et . So after 2500 miles of dirt trail riding and some crashes too she loves riding it on long uphill rides on technical terrain and hard uphill switchbacks BUT, for her the bike is a handful riding fast and aggressive going downhill. So riding down she rides with a big margin of safety and keeps the momentum of the weight in check. 

Now, would she like a Rise or SL? Maybe if we dumped our pedal bikes and only rode E but since we ride both she as well as me like the diversity of having a big powerful bike. We have ridden with gals on Rises and SLs they don't have the power climbing and are a handful in their own right too. Anyway, if a gal is getting a EMTB most important is fit and not weight and learn how to ride it. If you crash, don't blame the bike.............. IMO


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## jjglass535 (Jan 7, 2015)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I know from riding motocross for years that lighter bikes are way easier to handle.


Not sure I agree on that. I ride motocross and an ebike and I find the weight o the ebike actually makes it handle better. It definitely jumps better with some weight. Just for reference I'm a giant 5'3 and 140 lbs. Ride a kx250f and levo turbo without issues


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

jjglass535 said:


> Not sure I agree on that. I ride motocross and an ebike and I find the weight o the ebike actually makes it handle better. It definitely jumps better with some weight. Just for reference I'm a giant 5'3 and 140 lbs. Ride a kx250f and levo turbo without issues


I started riding motorcycles in the 60's and they had almost no suspension and weighed more than I did. In the mid 70's Honda came out with the Elsinore and WOW ! Light weight, and fast with suspension. They flew... Our old bikes felt like tanks. Then they got lighter and lighter. E-Bikes are just in the infancy stage. The motors will get smarter, lighter and more efficient. Probably automatic shifting too?


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## Cardy George (Dec 3, 2020)

Tall BMX'r said:


> You are just moving the center of mass higher which means it has to travel further when you lean side to side. That will slow your ability to turn side to side.


That would be true if I was just simply moving the mass from low on the bike to higher on my back, but I'm not, I'm adding mass and it has a significant effect on my cornering. As @slomtbr just mentioned, it has no effect on how my bike leans, but it has drastic effect of the momentum of the weight the tyres are trying to direct. And I'm not small, the the extra weight is a smaller percentage of my total system weight what it would be if it was added to a petite rider, male or female.


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