# 36er Questions & Design ideas



## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Hey 36er riders / builders ! First, let me say that this forum is awesome !

Been looking at those 36" bikes for quite a while and the other day I happen to bike by a shop where they sell circus stuff and there was a 36" unicycle up for sale there, seen this and kinda said to me, WOW, that's so huge, gotta have a set of those and build a frame for'em. Ever since the idea of building a 36er has stayed and I decided to throw a couple line at Autocad and give it my personnal touch. But before I go further with the project I want to ask you guys a couple questions I've had :

- Could a guy not drill the rims like the Trials riders do to make them a little lighter ?
- How is that wheelset been holding up for you guys ? Any problems with them yet ?
- Since their stays/fork are so long, would it be a good idea to use 15 or 20mil thru axle for the fork and 12mil thru axle in the back ? Can a guy feel any flex due to that ?
- Would it be a good idea to build the steer tube taper because of the length of the fork ?
- Does 1"OD x 0.35" 4130 tubes will be strong enough for the fork legs? (Planning on doing a custom box style construction fork).

So here's what i've done so far :










I've always wanted a twin top tube frame and I think a 36er would be a good candidate for that. Don't know about the bridge, it's supposed to be a water jetted plate but I might just do a tube. An maybe I'll do S-Bent seatstays / top tubes, that'd be sexier actually. DT will be a 42 x 9/6/9 x 750 from Nova.










Custom set of hooded swigners with chainstay mount disc brake, don't know if they'll ever actually be. Life Chainstays and custom Chainstay Yoke.










Chainstay construction : 1" 4340HT water jetted main part with 1/16" 4130 top & bottom welded together then notched. Autocad says .853 cubic inch so it'll be fairly light. Something like this is needed for the chainstay length I want.

Geo goes as follows :
TT: 24"
HTL : 3.5" 44mm ID
HTA : 69
BBDrop : 4.4"
CSL : 18.5" to 19.25"
STA : 73
STL : 17"
Fork offset : 100mm
Fork length : 20.1"

Anymore recommendation or suggestions on that is welcome, thanks in advance !!!

Keep those wheels turning guys, cheers !


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

I can't add too much here, but damn impressive design. The dropouts look like a perfect mash-up of what's currently available. Are you really gaining much clearance with the CS yoke?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Quick points*

-You are *probably* not going to find a long enough butted downtube, though at 24" effective TT it might just squeak in.
-1"x.035" is way, way too flimsy for fork blades. You will want at least 1 1/8 x .049" if you're using straightgauge. 
-I am dubious that you'll be able to make the chainstays that short - the tire is about 35.5" diameter, so 17.75" radius, and at 18.5" chainstay length, that's not enough to even clear the bottom bracket shell. 
-Forget the fancy (Life!?) tubes, just use beefy stuff. The wheels weigh 20 pounds with tires anyway. 
-You will probably whack your knees on those twin toptubes a lot. Remember that the TT/ST intersection is quite a bit farther forward than normal due to the offset/curved seat tube. You will want to do at least some bending of the toptubes to get them closer together, unless you have a really wide pedaling stance or point your knees out all the time. 
-If you can find or make a tapered steerer, go for it. 
-Through axles are a good thing. 
-Sure, you could drill the rims. Not sure how much weight you'll save, the tires are 5# each anyway. If weight is a concern, you will not like 36ers!
-If this is your first frame, build something more conventional first and learn from all the mistakes you'll make. I warn you that CAD drawing first posts seldom lead to a finished bike, in my experience.

Good luck!

-Walt


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks Walt, that's precious AWESOME info !!!

18.5" chainstay is the horizontal measurment, because of the BBdrop it sounds impossible, I agree. 19.04" is the axle to axle measurment when the wheel is fully forward.

743mm is the total final notched downtube length I need so 750 is a tight fit ! Actually if I couldn't find any longer I would've made it shorter just so I can use this tube.

S-Bent Top tubes/seatstays are on the to-do list !

Weight isn't an issue for me but I'd like to get it around or under 35 pounds kinda for a single speed build.

If I had CNC taper steer tubes made up out of 4130 round bar would there be any guys interested at having some ? Looking at a qty of 10 made up otherwise it's gonna be too pricy.

Complexity of the project shouldn't be a problem. I do everything but the welding, just don't trust myself enough on those butted tubes yet... ! I just like to design & build custom one-off stuff. Here's the last frame I built, in '09 :




























Cheers !


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

G-reg said:


> I can't add too much here, but damn impressive design. The dropouts look like a perfect mash-up of what's currently available. Are you really gaining much clearance with the CS yoke?


Thanks !

CS Yoke Much clearance over tubes, **** yeah ! 
It's about as close as I can go with this kind of construction. And I actually simulated the wheels being 36.0" OD. If the real measurment is 35.5" then I could probably go another 3/8"-1/2" shorter... !


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## ericpulvermacher (Nov 1, 2008)

I have a 36" unicycle and have ridden on a few drilled 36" rims.

I rode my friends unicycle that he drilled the rim all the way through, it was a Nimbus Stealth Pro rim and the end result was pretty flexible and really not worth the weight savings (in my opinion).

I drilled just the outside layer on my 48 spoke Coker wheel and it seems to have retained most of its stiffness and I have not had any troubles with it.

Nimbus had a "Stealth Impulse" rim for a while which was drilled through with 18mm holes and supposedly weighed 990g but they seem to have disappeared. I can't see them being any better than my friends drilled Stealth Pro.


With a wheel that big you really want good side to side stability in the rim so if I were you I would only drill the outer skin or not at all. I saved around 100g with 46 holes, the rim still weighs just over 1kg.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Rad!*

Looks like you're more than a few steps ahead of the typical engineering undergrads we get here who post CAD stuff and then never build it! That's way, way cool.

Understood on the chainstay length. That makes sense now.

Couple followups:
-Use the Supertherm 1/7/1x750 tube from True Temper instead of the Nova 9/6/9, unless you're really light. The forks on these bikes are massive and rigid, and the Supertherm will give you a little extra peace of mind. 
-Lots of people have proposed doing tapered steel steerers, but I just don't see the demand for them, honestly. Rigid forks are rigid enough without a tapered steerer, I'm not really sure what you'd gain. If you could find a cheap tapered steerer fork, it's pretty easy to cut the crown off, then take the steerer and cryofit/press it into your own fork. 
-Its worth using the 44mm ID headtube standard, just so that you can use very low stack (ie Zerostack/Inset) headsets and keep the bars a bit lower.

Keep us updated on your progress!

-Walt


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Walt, what do you mean by "the beefy stuff for Chainstay". Is there some sort of BMX or 29er specific chainstays I could use rather than 4130 Straight wall ? Gotta be at least 425mm, long though with this setup (Dropout & CS Yoke)

Supertherm 1/7/1x750, sounds awesome. With the amount of lever the fork has on such a short headtube, Indeed, it's nice to have the extra peace of mind.

It's still very early in the progress... might take me a couple months to build it... ! Wish I could build as fast as todwil !!!

Peace !


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Cool design I like the seat tube yoke....you will probably rub you calves on the top tube without the bends. The 44mm head tube is a good choice for inset or tapered bearings
Plus it helps on handlebar height.

The wheels on my bike have close to 750 miles on them so far so good the original
Hubs where Shimano 525's and they only went 16-18 miles changed the hubs to 
I9s and zero problems the rim are wide 38 mm and new one offered are even wider 
42 mm so you might want to take that into account when making the CS yoke

Now that's get down to brass tacks tells us about that DH beauty did you make the gear box
Also.....you just need to bring it by so I can ride it

I believe the only way to use .035 for the fork you would need to go up in diameter maybe
1.250-1.50 without making a truss type fork 

Good luck and post pics as you go please!!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Chainstay options*

I like the "Mad Max" stays from Nova (they are HUGE and very stiff). 4130 straight gauge works too, of course.

-Walt



TLKD said:


> Walt, what do you mean by "the beefy stuff for Chainstay". Is there some sort of BMX or 29er specific chainstays I could use rather than 4130 Straight wall ? Gotta be at least 425mm, long though with this setup (Dropout & CS Yoke)
> 
> Supertherm 1/7/1x750, sounds awesome. With the amount of lever the fork has on such a short headtube, Indeed, it's nice to have the extra peace of mind.
> 
> ...


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## Brad Bedell (Apr 18, 2009)

I'd pay real close attention to what Walt tells you about the building design. He's built one very similar to what you are proposing. Walt used a piece of rectangle for the twin bridge on mine. 
you can 'sorta' see it here:
36er - bedellracing's Photos

I love my twin top tubes. But if I were to build another bike to ride off-road, it would be a traditional top tube. I rub my legs when doing switchbacks, tricky climbs and quick dismounts are usually not real graceful due to the girth of the frame. That said, this frame is very stiff. The only flex I can find is in the wheels.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Brad Bedell said:


> I'd pay real close attention to what Walt tells you about the building design. He's built one very similar to what you are proposing. Walt used a piece of rectangle for the twin bridge on mine.
> you can 'sorta' see it here:
> 36er - bedellracing's Photos
> 
> I love my twin top tubes. But if I were to build another bike to ride off-road, it would be a traditional top tube. I rub my legs when doing switchbacks, tricky climbs and quick dismounts are usually not real graceful due to the girth of the frame. That said, this frame is very stiff. The only flex I can find is in the wheels.


Awesome looking bike, thanks for sharing pics !

And yep, I pay close attention ! 
This forum is awesome partly because of those pro builders stepping in and sharing their knowledge. It's very appreciated.


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## benwitt11 (May 1, 2005)

After owning a 36er with twin top tubes, I would agree with Brad. If and when I get another one it'll have a traditional TT. I hit my knees enough that I wouldn't do it again.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

No twin top tubes eh ! Sounds like everobody agrees on that... but I'm gonna stick to my first idea no matter what ! Small radius bends, gotta work with the tube bender I got (no tube roller !). Tried to give me as much knee clearance as I could though. (my welder is gonna swear at me for such tight spots to be welded but I know he can do it... ! LOL !). Both top tubes and Seatstay bridge will have a tiny notch and will be welded to the seat tube. Might add another crossbar in between the twins and space them evenly between Seat and Head Tube. That's a detail anyways...


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Cool I like the refined model....and it's almost the right color!! The only hard part I see is getting
All the bend on the same plain.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Easy tricks*

Keeping something in phase isn't too hard - just cut a miter (for any size of tube you want) in one end (while leaving the entire tube longer than you need it), then do your bending and use the miter and a piece of tubing/level to make sure all the bends are in the same plane. When it comes time to do the final mitering, you can just cut off the excess.

You can also scribe a line down the tube using a piece of angle iron (or any number of other straight-ish things) and use that, if you have an easy way to line up that scribed line with some reference point on your bender.

-Walt



todwil said:


> Cool I like the refined model....and it's almost the right color!! The only hard part I see is getting
> All the bend on the same plain.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Bends all on the same plane, good point there man. 
What I do for that is I trace a line with a pen and an angle iron all along the tube. That'll be either the top or bottom reference in the dies for the bends depending on the side of the bend of course. Works ok if you got anything that looks like a JD2. It'll still remain a manual operation though, that's for sure !

Green for the giant 36ers, yah man ! Thinking of doing a John Deere theme with yellow rims & spokes !


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*I know how you feel...*

When I eventually get around to building myself a 36er, I will probably have a hard time not doing twin toptubes too - since the whole bike is pretty impractical, why not make it silly and cool?

Then again, I think the twin toptubes would not play well with elevated chainstays, which I figured I might try for the first time on that (currently, and for the indefinite future, vaporware) project. Sometimes I really wish I just built bikes as a hobby so I could build all the dumb things I want to for myself...

-W



TLKD said:


> No twin top tubes eh ! Sounds like everobody agrees on that... but I'm gonna stick to my first idea no matter what ! Small radius bends, gotta work with the tube bender I got (no tube roller !). Tried to give me as much knee clearance as I could though. (my welder is gonna swear at me for such tight spots to be welded but I know he can do it... ! LOL !). Both top tubes and Seatstay bridge will have a tiny notch and will be welded to the seat tube. Might add another crossbar in between the twins and space them evenly between Seat and Head Tube. That's a detail anyways...
> ]


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Walt said:


> Keeping something in phase isn't too hard - just cut a miter (for any size of tube you want) in one end (while leaving the entire tube longer than you need it), then do your bending and use the miter and a piece of tubing/level to make sure all the bends are in the same plane. When it comes time to do the final mitering, you can just cut off the excess.
> 
> You can also scribe a line down the tube using a piece of angle iron (or any number of other straight-ish things) and use that, if you have an easy way to line up that scribed line with some reference point on your bender.
> 
> -Walt


 Yep been using angle iron straight edge for years works real well....but
On my JD2 bender it seems as if the tube rolls as you pull the die arround...


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

*Non-builder thoughts*

Not a builder so take my comments for what they are...

- My set of rims/tires measure 36.0" even so I wouldn't go shorter on CS as the quality control on these rims and tubes seem pretty iffy and you may get longer instead of shorter.
- You may want to put the top tube bridge in front of the seat tube if you want shortest chainstays possible. See pics below of my bike, seems to work very well but I am no engineer and the overall design is much different (plus in Ti). Also note tight spaces for welding, what you want is certainly doable.
- I think your redesign would work well with twin top tubes. My first few rides gave me bruises the size of softballs on the inside of my knees with the my long seatstays and that's with a fairly wide Q factor as I'm set up for a Rohloff someday (126mm spindle for reference). Since then I have gotten used to what not to do. As others have mentioned it only happens on tight switchbacks or really rough descents but it can be painful regardless.
- I agree with Walt re keeping bars low. I am still slowly dropping my bars by removing spacers but will still have a fairly upright stance, although I love it for everything that I have ridden esp on the longer hauls approaching 65+miles.
- 35 lbs is totally doable for SS, that's where mine is and I'm sure you could make a lighter frame and replace with lighter parts in a couple spots, also by running tubeless. We're working on better tires to drop a few more lbs currently. Eventually we'll do the same with rims and maybe hit 30lbs for SS setups.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Cool looking Sheep you got there man ! Thanks for sharing !

The way I designed my seat tube I got more than enough clearance than I need up there, Chainstay is where the tire wouldn't clear first.

Truss forks are awesome but I'm questionning the use of it in this application just because you got an extra 1-1/4" or so on top of your headset underneath your stem, that would be the equivalent of adding 1-1/4" (or whatever that measurment is) to the length of your headtube. Maybe you're a tall guy and it just works well that way for you though I can't say.

When you say "we're working on better tires to drop a few more lbs currently", are you willing to elaborate more on that or it's top secret R&D ? Are you regrooving them to remove some of that rubber ?

What are you guys running for gearing ?

Thanks !!!!!!


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

TLKD said:


> Cool looking Sheep you got there man ! Thanks for sharing !
> 
> Truss forks are awesome but I'm questionning the use of it in this application just because you got an extra 1-1/4" or so on top of your headset underneath your stem, that would be the equivalent of adding 1-1/4" (or whatever that measurment is) to the length of your headtube. Maybe you're a tall guy and it just works well that way for you though I can't say.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I've had a blast on it so far, had it just over 2 months.

I'm 6'2" so the height doesn't bother me. The headtube is fairly short (maybe 80mm?) but I agree generally in wanting something lower for most folks. I think the fork compliments the rest of the bike more than anything but also has a bit of flex to soak up the small bumps.

If you really had your position dialed in you could do a fork/stem/bar combo. Or you could add more space between the top and bottom of the fork and insert your stem between the fork and headtube. May look odd, but no more so than some of the other front ends on a 36er. I've spoken with White Brothers about doing a 4" front sus fork but have yet to hear back from the engineering dept on viability as you'd need custom crowns made. Would be interesting to try out and see how it handles but would also add 5+ lbs to the front of the bike.

The collective "we" are working on a small tire manufacturer to produce a small run of 36" lighter weight better tread tires. Very early stages, todwil had to hand the project over and I have yet to start. Not sure on viability yet given the associated costs and unknown weight/performance/etc. but appears promising despite my initial doubts. I shoudl know more this week. In the meantime I think I will try and remove some of the tread for better grip and less weight, but removing 792 half-knobbies per tire is a daunting task and nothing I've done before. It's been hard to find info on proper techniques to make it easier. See this thread for discussion on tires and rims: http://forums.mtbr.com/650b-69er-new-wheel-trends/36er-tire-rim-discussion-733027.html

I am running 32x24 on trails, HBC aluminum spiderless chainring in front and HBC Ti cog in back. I have a Ti spiderless chainring on order for when I switch to my Rohloff eventually as well as a couple other aluminum cogs to slide on the rear hub (it holds three) so I can play with gearing a bit. I'll have a 24, 23, 22 on back and hopefully be able to switch without needing a different chain if my calculations are correct. Right now my secondary gearing is 32x16 for dedicated city riding but I have to switch chains out for that so it's a bit of a pain.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

TLKD,
Nice looking droputs. Are you planning to make them yourself? You may want to add some screws to adjust gap (i.e. similar to black cat). 









mbeardsl,
Is that a telescoping chain stay design for chain tension? If so, how do you feel it works?

-Mark


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

febikes said:


> mbeardsl,
> Is that a telescoping chain stay design for chain tension? If so, how do you feel it works?
> 
> -Mark


Yes, love it. I'm not sure why it's not a more popular system, although perhaps not possible with steel seatstays? Risk of stripping the set screws or "bosses" and having to repair the chainstays? Aside from tensioning it also allows for conversion to belt drive but don't think that's ever in my future given the amount of flex the rear triangle can produce under load.

It takes me about 10 seconds max to adjust tension now. Loosen the set screws, push down on the saddle with my chest/shoulder and reach down to retighten the screws. I'm not sure how much adjustment I have as I haven't tried different gearing close to where I'm at now but as soon my HBC batch comes in I'll know. It would appear about 1" of movement which should allow 3 gears 1 tooth apart with the same chain.

I was hesitant given my weight and weight of the wheels etc but I have not had it slip riding hard in the ORC area with the usual suspects. The "plugs" are machined flat where the set screws hit, there are grooves that look like they would potentially halt a slip if it did occur. The pictures don't do it justice, but the seat and chainstays are pretty beefy.

We have ridden together once or twice before (Feb?). I will be out this weekend for a LONG ride Sat or Sun morning if you want to look at it in person. Here is a terrible picture I tried to adjust to see more detail:


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## Brad Bedell (Apr 18, 2009)

TLKD said:


> No twin top tubes eh ! Sounds like everobody agrees on that... but I'm gonna stick to my first idea no matter what ! Small radius bends, gotta work with the tube bender I got (no tube roller !). Tried to give me as much knee clearance as I could though. (my welder is gonna swear at me for such tight spots to be welded but I know he can do it... ! LOL !). Both top tubes and Seatstay bridge will have a tiny notch and will be welded to the seat tube. Might add another crossbar in between the twins and space them evenly between Seat and Head Tube. That's a detail anyways...
> 
> https://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/TLKDPROD/TwinTopTubeRevised.jpg


There ya go. That'd fix the width issue.

I'd curve the top tube so that I had more stand-over clearance. I had a rough dismount this weekend while going through an uphill rock garden. Fortunately, I've learned to just sit on the twin tubes when my legs don't touch the ground.


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Brad Bedell said:


> There ya go. That'd fix the width issue.
> 
> I'd curve the top tube so that I had more stand-over clearance. I had a rough dismount this weekend while going through an uphill rock garden. Fortunately, I've learned to just sit on the twin tubes when my legs don't touch the ground.


Not a bad idea, especially if you aren't super tall. Even at 6'2" I have very little room above my TT.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Brad Bedell said:


> There ya go. That'd fix the width issue.
> 
> I'd curve the top tube so that I had more stand-over clearance. I had a rough dismount this weekend while going through an uphill rock garden. Fortunately, I've learned to just sit on the twin tubes when my legs don't touch the ground.


The twin top tubes are 2.1" wide near the seat tube and they taper down to just below 1.5" wide where the top tube is so it would be the equivalent of running a big arse top tube.

Curving the tubes the other way to gain crouch clearance mean I gotta bend/ roll on 2 different axis... I don't know if I'm willing to do that... I could though ! I like challenges, because building a bike with 8 tubes, a BB shell and a set of bought Dropout is flat out boring to me... ! Plus my gf is 5'4" and says she want to ride it when I'm done building it...



febikes said:


> TLKD,
> Nice looking droputs. Are you planning to make them yourself? You may want to add some screws to adjust gap (i.e. similar to black cat).
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks !
Yep gonna be building them myself, well... subcontract them out actually. The aluminum part of it is gonna be cut in the next few days. Adding a screw to push the wheel back is a good idea, I just don't know how I'm gonna do it for the disc side though and I don't want to put it on the swigner part... Maybe I can get away by putting one just on the drive side.


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

Hi TLKD and thanks for sharing your plans.
I'm having a 36er cross touring bike built and will try to post some of the steps here too.
Cheers


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## Brad Bedell (Apr 18, 2009)

TLKD said:


> The twin top tubes are 2.1" wide near the seat tube and they taper down to just below 1.5" wide where the top tube is so it would be the equivalent of running a big arse top tube.
> 
> Curving the tubes the other way to gain crouch clearance mean I gotta bend/ roll on 2 different axis... I don't know if I'm willing to do that... I could though ! I like challenges, because building a bike with 8 tubes, a BB shell and a set of bought Dropout is flat out boring to me... ! Plus my gf is 5'4" and says she want to ride it when I'm done building it...
> 
> .


My wife is 5'6, there are pics of how she fits in that link above. I'll measure my tube width tonight. That seems about what I have going with mine. I have a 10mm x135 axle on the front of mine. This helped a great deal with steering control. Doing it again, I'd look at a 15 or 20mm axle, even with a narrower fork. Rear is a 12x150.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Quick question...*

I thought you were using 3/4" for the toptubes? Seems like it would have to be significantly wider than 1.5" anywhere near the seat tube... did you mean the width where the *head tube* is?

I seriously recommend getting on a bike and figuring out where your knees will be when you're pedaling or standing to descend. Having something that is set up so that riding it is painful and unpleasant isn't worth the cool factor (and it might be fine, but you need to actually figure out where your knees need to be to know for sure).

-Walt



TLKD said:


> The twin top tubes are 2.1" wide near the seat tube and they taper down to just below 1.5" wide where the top tube is so it would be the equivalent of running a big arse top tube.


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## Brad Bedell (Apr 18, 2009)

1.5' width at the head tube, 3.35" at the seat post. Using what looks like 5/8" tubing. 

Under normal pedaling, road, light trail there isn't a contact issue. Width really isn't a 'big' deal, more so than it feels wide to me. For pre-build testing, I strapped a 2x4 that was cut to our predicted widths to my mtb for testing and went for a ride. I then reported how many splinters I had to Walt and we adjusted accordingly.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Walt said:


> I thought you were using 3/4" for the toptubes? Seems like it would have to be significantly wider than 1.5" anywhere near the seat tube... did you mean the width where the *head tube* is?
> 
> I seriously recommend getting on a bike and figuring out where your knees will be when you're pedaling or standing to descend. Having something that is set up so that riding it is painful and unpleasant isn't worth the cool factor (and it might be fine, but you need to actually figure out where your knees need to be to know for sure).
> 
> -Walt


Yes, 3/4" OD x 0.28" wall. And no, 2.1" is the max "outside width" at the seat tube. Good idea to figure out where my knees are gonne be, will do.



davidfrench said:


> Hi TLKD and thanks for sharing your plans.
> I'm having a 36er cross touring bike built and will try to post some of the steps here too.
> Cheers


Post some of your photos man !



Brad Bedell said:


> My wife is 5'6, there are pics of how she fits in that link above. I'll measure my tube width tonight. That seems about what I have going with mine. I have a 10mm x135 axle on the front of mine. This helped a great deal with steering control. Doing it again, I'd look at a 15 or 20mm axle, even with a narrower fork. Rear is a 12x150.


10x135 for the front, eh. Interesting. You can probably build a stronger wheel by going wider. I'll do mine 20mm with a big arse flanged hub, should be good enough.

Rear is gonna be 12mm x 135.

Here are the swigner parts of the dropouts, not too impressed by the 1/4" ball finish on the pockets... Can't blame my CNC guy, He sais he broke his last 1/4" ball end mill so I said, heck, got one in my toolbox right here in my car ! So he used one of mine... !!!! She didn't look too too bad at first but anyhows... If I get tired of that I'll just ask for another set made up. HAHahahahaha !










Cheers !


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Are they going to be thru axle or is there more machining to do, they look good to me so far!!??


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

TLKD said:


> Post some of your photos man !
> 
> Cheers !


Here is what we got for now.
Rims are on their way
It will have a truss fork but the one in the pic is just for fun (and not the right size)
then the steering tube
the bent seat tube
CK headset
200mm cranks (toe overlap in the problem list)
spider
oversized bottom bracket
going to order some tires, but looking at what our other group will come up with !


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*For those who are interested: 36er tires*

Please take a moment to vote in the poll on the weird-sizes board:
http://forums.mtbr.com/650b-69er-new-wheel-trends/poll-36er-tires-744828.html

Thanks!

-Walt


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Yep Thru Axle 12mm. Got the threads left to do and the anodizing, that's it.
Now comes the complicated task : getting the other part (stainless steel) of the dropout done up !!!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

I've been messing around for a while with this CAD I found on Walt's blog that his friend Steve did (I hope it's fine for you Walt and Steve to use it and post it here, if not, let me know) 
So this is one of the idea of what my randonneur might look like (fenders and racks missing... I know it's going to weight a ton... I don't care, I don't race.)
Final design will be left at the appreciation of the builder, and I trust him. 
Anyway, I'm shorter than Yao Ming !


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

davidfrench said:


> I've been messing around for a while with this CAD I found on Walt's blog that his friend Steve did (I hope it's fine for you Walt and Steve to use it and post it here, if not, let me know)
> So this is one of the idea of what my randonneur might look like (fenders and racks missing... I know it's going to weight a ton... I don't care, I don't race.)
> Final design will be left at the appreciation of the builder, and I trust him.
> Anyway, I'm shorter than Yao Ming !


STANDOVER!! I'd suggest more unless your inseam is literally 39-40". Maybe some more BB drop if you can afford it with your 200mm cranks if not doing much offroading. Will drop your center of gravity and feel more stable especially at lower speeds where you will notice all that wheel out in front of you.


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes stand over of course. I'm at 99cm (39") inseam, but of course, it will be better to have this top tube going down a bit more. 
This is just a rough drawing I sent to my builder. As he's limiting me to 4 emails a day I have to share here my thoughts !

BB is less a concern compare to headtube angle, trail, rake... for this 36er...
I'd like to have a small Herse's style rack in the front and maybe some detachable low-riders front rack ! Same in the back...
So geometry will be a key...


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

I remember many years ago we made a 26" wheeled frame for a 6'10" guy, the top tube was 30-1/4" long, that's as far ar our jig goes (he wanted 31"). I was holding the frame in my hands and I was like "this can't be right"... Bottom line, the guy just loooved the frame. So I'm pretty sure if you were to throw a 28"+ TT on that thing with a 69 degree HTA you'd be totally fine with toe overlap...

Just a suggestion here.


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

TLKD said:


> I remember many years ago we made a 26" wheeled frame for a 6'10" guy, the top tube was 30-1/4" long, that's as far ar our jig goes (he wanted 31"). I was holding the frame in my hands and I was like "this can't be right"... Bottom line, the guy just loooved the frame. So I'm pretty sure if you were to throw a 28"+ TT on that thing with a 69 degree HTA you'd be totally fine with toe overlap...
> 
> Just a suggestion here.


:nonod::nonod::nonod::nonod::nonod::nonod::nonod:
I want pics of this 26" frame for a 6.10 guy !
even at only 6.6 I never, ever though that 26" were an appropriate size of wheel for me...


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

No pics sorry, that was in the early 2000s, another era ! Maybe I can retrace that customer and ask for pics. Back then 29" wheel weren't really an option for him, that guy wasn't fat but I guess at 6'10'' a slim guy will not end up weighing 175 pounds kinda deal... and he was worried about stiffness of the bigger wheels so we made it a 26er. I totally agree with you though, 26" wheels looked kinda funny but bottom line in early 2000s there wasn't many options for 29er parts and ... 26" wheel get the job done pretty damn good for someone who don't really ride offroad, can't deny that ! 

So we made it all 4130, downtube was a lardass 2"OD x .035", Top tube & Seat Tube 1-1/2"OD x .035'... Columbus Max Chainstays with hooded dropouts if I remember well. The thing was just huge.


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

of course, back in 2000...


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

TLKD said:


> - Could a guy not drill the rims like the Trials riders do to make them a little lighter ?


you mean like this :


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

davidfrench said:


> you mean like this :
> 
> Would love to see a pic of that purple frame.
> 
> TLKD - I don't think you will save much weight by drilling holes (5g/hole @ 18 holes/rim saves 180g TOTAL) and and it will make the rim considerably weaker (from what the unicyclists say) - I believe Eric had said he wouldn't drill through both layers, only the outside (closest to hub) if he did it again. Although with your weight distributed between 2 wheels you may be ok.


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

mbeardsl said:


> Would love to see a pic of that purple frame.


It's here


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

mbeardsl said:


> davidfrench said:
> 
> 
> > you mean like this :
> ...


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

TLKD said:


> What's the hole size on your rim davidfrench ? 3/4'' ?
> 
> Thanks !


Not my rim, pics are from a FlickR account.

BTW, if the rim is drilled on the inside, I guess you can't go tubeless after ?


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

davidfrench said:


> BTW, if the rim is drilled on the inside, I guess you can't go tubeless after ?


Just need some layer to seal up the holes. People on fat bikes are trying to figure out how to run tubeless fat tires. Speedway Cycles has done it, and their rims are drilled out like swiss cheese.


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## ericpulvermacher (Nov 1, 2008)

the inner wall is much thinner than the outer surface of the rim. you would get maybe 1/3 the weight savings by drilling the inner wall compared to the outer and then need to use a stronger heavier rim strip.

I have never had any trouble with mud and debris getting in the holes on my drilled double walled rims.


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

If you wanted to get real ballsy you could machine out the thin inner wall and drill out the outer wall to mimic some of the single wall snow rims out there. I wouldn't ride it, but I've got 50lbs on you.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

2 x 3-1/4'' Long by 44mm Headtube and a little chunk of lettuce, CHECK.










The true temper supertherm 38.1OD x 1/.7/1 x 750 Downtube and 5/8'' OD twin top tube allows such a short headtube length to be used. These were carved out of a solid chunk of 4340HT.

Peace.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Nice pieces....I think that those would be the perfect height!!


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

*36er Lefty*

Project going on slowly but surely. It's become more of a sunday night project than anyhing else for now... ! Had a crazy idea this morning and decided to throw a few lines at it and it's the use of a full custom rigid lefty fork.

This custom fork setup has 2 advantages that I can see so far for a 36er : the ability to drop the axle to crown length below 19" and the use of a direct mount handlebar that's flippable from one side to the other, making this handlebar setup, one of the cleanest & lowest out there according to me.

Still not sure if I'll go that way... Still questionning the look of it too ! Kinda kool looking... "kinda" ! Hahahahaha !

That fork blade is represented as 1-1/2" OD by the way...





































Cheers everyone !!!


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## ericpulvermacher (Nov 1, 2008)

yah looks "kinda" cool, twin top tubes and a single fork blade! On the other hand I never understood why anyone would want a rigid lefty. is there really any advantages?

Personally I would go with a dual leg fork design, but hey, it's your bike, you can make it how you like, add a basket, a bell that rings, and things to make it look good.

any reason you couldn't use your flippable mount idea on a "regular" dual crown?


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

ericpulvermacher said:


> yah looks "kinda" cool, twin top tubes and a single fork blade! On the other hand I never understood why anyone would want a rigid lefty. is there really any advantages?


TLKD - I have never ridden a lefty but in some older threads about rigid leftys the concern was "bump steer". I'm sure that effect would be increased substantially with a 10lb wheel, more so off road, and even more so with a slack head angle that already makes the wheel feel more "floppy" than usual. See here for example:

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/why-dont-they-make-rigid-leftys-691735.html

I think you'd want some deflection to absorb the bumps but in the right plane (e.g. not side to side). If you got less creative you could take a Lefty Max with 140mm of travel and 510mm axle to crown and limit it to not hit your tire, but that would only give you 40 mm of travel (510mm - 10mm for gap between steere and wheel - 460mm for tire). That may be enough to help with bump steer... You would of course have to machine new crowns to get the proper offset for a decent trail number but it looks like you have that ability already. I had thought of doing this at one point but I don't have the ability to machine parts and nobody seemed interested.

Oh, and regardless of what you do you'll need to find a lefty hub with 36h count to match the rim which I'm not sure anyone makes right now. I have only seen 28h and 32h I think.

EDIT: Not sure why everyone thinks they need a super low bar setup? My setup feels great and bars are on a slightly rasied stem set on 10-20mm spacers above headset, so basically normal. I understand that wouldn't be for everyone but I can't imagine being bent over by another 2 inches unless the idea is to drop the bb and saddle placement as well??


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

If you did go the "regular" lefty route you could manufacture your own crowns like above but with some drop as they reach for the fork. You could then get more travel out of the fork. That would also raise your front end slightly, and give you a reason to want a lower bar setup like you have above.

I'd almost be interested in taking a pair of crowns like that off your hands if you end up making them. The fit probably wouldn't work as I run a 80 or 90 mm stem now and what you have pictured would certainly be shorter.

Apparently you can still find a few 36h lefty hubs out there BTW, I hadn't looked hard enough before.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

mbeardsl said:


> TLKD - I have never ridden a lefty but in some older threads about rigid leftys the concern was "bump steer". I'm sure that effect would be increased substantially with a 10lb wheel, more so off road, and even more so with a slack head angle that already makes the wheel feel more "floppy" than usual. See here for example:
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/why-dont-they-make-rigid-leftys-691735.html
> 
> ...


Wow quite a thread ! I understand people have a tooth against rigid lefty to start off with ! I would really like to hear what people who have rigid lefty's have to say about them. If the bump steer is that bad. Can't forget that with a 36" wheel, each bumps are smaller than a 29er or 26er, eh. But that 36" wheel is gonna pry harder on the setup too. Of course I'd have to validate it but a custom spun large OD tube (1-1/2") with variable wall thickness to match the load the single blade has to handle, eh.

Project321 have a Lefty hub with a 36 hole drilling. Special order though.

Liking the idea of the suspension lefty with custom Cnc'd clamps... ! But my 36er is gonna be full rigid !

I don't think a guy could do the reverse handlebar mount like above on a traditionnal dual crown suspension fork because the fork offset isn't enough and there is no space in between the blades and headtube to do so.

Low bars : this is just so a 5'3" person can ride a 36er if he/she really wants to. I understand your question though coming from a guy over 6'.

Cheers !


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

TLKD said:


> Wow quite a thread ! I understand people have a tooth against rigid lefty to start off with ! I would really like to hear what people who have rigid lefty's have to say about them. If the bump steer is that bad. Can't forget that with a 36" wheel, each bumps are smaller than a 29er or 26er, eh. But that 36" wheel is gonna pry harder on the setup too. Of course I'd have to validate it but a custom spun large OD tube (1-1/2") with variable wall thickness to match the load the single blade has to handle, eh.
> 
> Project321 have a Lefty hub with a 36 hole drilling. Special order though.
> 
> ...


there was a bike at Interbike that had two lefty rims on it and it was a rigid righty
with right side brakes I was trying to find a pic it is a "coaster" bike fore a lack of a 
better term it was cool looking!!


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

todwil said:


> there was a bike at Interbike that had two lefty rims on it and it was a rigid righty
> with right side brakes I was trying to find a pic it is a "coaster" bike fore a lack of a
> better term it was cool looking!!


It's in the link above. At first I didn't even notice the rear end, nice catch. You can find other pics out here in googleland.

Or there's the strider version as well for you 5'3" guys


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

This the one I saw at Interbike!!!


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## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

TLKD said:


> I don't think a guy could do the reverse handlebar mount like above on a traditionnal dual crown suspension fork because the fork offset isn't enough and there is no space in between the blades and headtube to do so.


True, but could do motorcycle style clipons. Can mount those at any height.


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

mbeardsl said:


> Or there's the strider version as well for you 5'3" guys


I'd ride that strider !!!


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

todwil said:


> View attachment 656511
> 
> 
> This the one I saw at Interbike!!!


Check out this site! Blog of Jeff Tiedeken, prototyper supreme!

Monkey Likes Shiny


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

So...I made a bit of an impulse purchase.....









Which has now required other purcha$e$ 

One of which are a few of these 

Technically not frame building content, but where are you ClownBike builders sourcing spokes from?

The obvious and most likely option is using the 371mm(!) spokes you can get from Unicycle.com. The hubs I'm looking at using are in that ballpark, but a touch short.

Are any blank 14g spokes long enough that if you had access to a PhilWood spoke roller *DaveSav,COUGH* you could cut your own.

Some other option I'm unaware of?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Unicycle.com in the UK has 375mm spokes and penny farthing uncut spokes
Our's had for a brief time the same uncut spokes but haven't seen them in a while
Ive called or emailed all The spoke Manu's in the states and been told there machine 
Cant make them that long. The 371mm spokes may work for ya if you also use the 
16mm nipples. Once you have the wheels built everything else is bike.

Cant wait to see another clown bike!


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

G-reg said:


> So...I made a bit of an impulse purchase.....
> 
> View attachment 832370
> 
> ...


 G-reg, you know who to hit up if you need some spokes cut! It might get real interesting but I'm totally down!


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Can you get straight stock and z-bend one end, like a bladed spoke?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I use the Unicycle.com spokes. Have not found another source, unfortunately.

Interesting thread resurrection. Wonder if the OP ever built his bike.

-Walt


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Walt said:


> I use the Unicycle.com spokes. Have not found another source, unfortunately.
> 
> Interesting thread resurrection. Wonder if the OP ever built his bike.
> 
> -Walt


Not to my knowledge but if/when he does it'll be unique. TLKD where ya at?

Unicycle.com is the only spoke supplier I've found. If they're too long there's bound to be a local shop that can cut/thread then for you. I'm having that don't soon to put a bigger hub in the rear.

I know Brad was looking for better options but a new baby put a damper on other projects.


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

There's Dylan in the UK that can cut spokes for you:
York wheel building from Yourspokes
He did cut the spokes for my DirtySixer.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

mbeardsl said:


> Not to my knowledge but if/when he does it'll be unique. TLKD where ya at?
> 
> Unicycle.com is the only spoke supplier I've found. If they're too long there's bound to be a local shop that can cut/thread then for you. I'm having that don't soon to put a bigger hub in the rear.
> 
> I know Brad was looking for better options but a new baby put a damper on other projects.


Framebuilders, I haven't done anything on this project for quie a while. Still got it in my head though. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't think of my future 36er. I keep telling the gf that the next bike I'll build will be a 36er. Just a question of time before I get 2 more projects "out of the way" and then the 36er project will get a go.

I'm requestionning all of what I designed up there though. I don't think it'll end up the way I originally designed it at all. I'm requestionning the twin top tube choice. Even though it sure would be cool to look at the downtube while you're pedaling, I think the twin top tube is the kind of thing that may get old pretty quick.

I would sure like to incorporate some streamline tubing though. Did a design that's got a twin SEAT tube design where the tubes would be running straight, on each side of the rear tire, from the BB to the top tube/seatstays area. The "bridge" would be made out of a 1.685 x .714" Streamline tubing, where the seat tube would run thru and this is where the seatstays and seat tubes would meet. Part of the rear tire would be sorta hidden from those tubes.

You guys can see how this all looks like here, this is just a rough 2Ddrawing :









Don't get me wrong, I know i'll need to add some sort of a seat tube brace somewhere. ust hasn't got there yet.

-BB shell went from 73 to 83mm so the rear end followed that change of course. Either a 150 or 157mm hub.
-Shortened the TTL a bit to fit the 1-3/8" Supertherm Downtube
-TT as it's drawn right now is 1-1/8". Haven't looked if there were any heavy duty 1-1/8" tubes out there. Might have to go 1-1/4" but like the look of 1-1/8".
-Seatstays on this dwg are 3/4'' x .028"
-Don't know what to do with chainstays yet as they'd need to be at the very least 460mm long with this simple round paragon dropout design.

This frame ain't gonna live anytime soon, but it's slowly progressing.

Anybody built 36" wheel with a 150mm rear hub yet ?

Cheers.

Thierry


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

TLKD said:


> Anybody built 36" wheel with a 150mm rear hub yet ?
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Thierry


They don't post here but Blacksheep I think has done 150 175 and 190mm rear ends.
I'm not sure how much it really helps but I'm also riding a Ti bike so probably wouldn't notice it anyways.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

I was looking at using fatbike hubs, but gave up because as far as I know there's no such thing as 36 hole 135f 170r hubs. Custom shells from Phil or Paul notwithstanding... But this project is way over budget long before using custom and the "Ps" in the same sentence. Or is there a 32 hole rim out there...


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

G-reg said:


> I was looking at using fatbike hubs, but gave up because as far as I know there's no such thing as 36 hole 135f 170r hubs. Custom shells from Phil or Paul notwithstanding... But this project is way over budget long before using custom and the "Ps" in the same sentence. Or is there a 32 hole rim out there...


Haven't used their products but try emailing or calling the guys at 616fab.com about their fat bike hubs. I couldn't find spoke hole counts on their website. Didn't try Facebook. They make them in the US so may be able to do a "cheap" custom drilling vs Phil. Good luck, let us know if you pursue it.


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## zerodish (Jun 17, 2006)

36 inch wheels are prone to buckling on unicycles. They use a 100mm wide flange. You are only going to have trouble with 36 inch wheels even with 48 holes.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Funny, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone tacoing a 36er wheel on a bicycle. 

-W


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

I've tried very hard to destroy my wheels, but all I did is bending the rim on a huge impact, after a big jump landing in a rock garden. Using 36 spokes with Phil Wood hub (135 OLD, 20mm thru axle).


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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

This seems relevant to this thread:

Interbike First Look: Keener 36er | Dirt Rag Magazine


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## Hank Moody (Apr 15, 2013)

Hey guys, The frame you designed looks like the old torkker bmx frame, looks great. I have lots of ideas on bike builds but never put them to reality, lack the geometry knowledge. you guys inspire me to do more with it. And that Keener 36er is bad ass. not sure what you do with it but thats cool.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

G-reg said:


> I was looking at using fatbike hubs, but gave up because as far as I know there's no such thing as 36 hole 135f 170r hubs. Custom shells from Phil or Paul notwithstanding... But this project is way over budget long before using custom and the "Ps" in the same sentence. Or is there a 32 hole rim out there...


It is not terribly hard to cut/sleeve/widen a cheap 36° hole hub shell to whatever width you desire (or for which you can find suitably long axle.) When fatbikes were first going wider than 135mm rear and there was no cheap available wide hubs, there were guys widening with sucess.

Pictures are gone with recent server crash but here is the thread for DIY hub widening;
http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/widening-hub-832387.html


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

davidfrench said:


> I've tried very hard to destroy my wheels, but all I did is bending the rim on a huge impact, after a big jump landing in a rock garden. Using 36 spokes with Phil Wood hub (135 OLD, 20mm thru axle).


I second your and Walt's comments. I've got a couple thousand miles on my wheels and haven't even needed to true them. I've hit trees head on, dumped it a couple handful of times, and am an ungraceful 240lb rider. Lots of rock gardens, stair rides, small jumps etc.

More than that though, I haven't heard any unicyclists (that I speak with) busting a 36er. Not saying it doesn't happen, but certainly not "prone" to it.


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

GrayJay said:


> It is not terribly hard to cut/sleeve/widen a cheap 36° hole hub shell to whatever width you desire (or for which you can find suitably long axle.) When fatbikes were first going wider than 135mm rear and there was no cheap available wide hubs, there were guys widening with sucess.
> 
> Pictures are gone with recent server crash but here is the thread for DIY hub widening;
> http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/widening-hub-832387.html


Do you have a DIY method for widening a Rohloff too?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

G-reg said:


> So...I made a bit of an impulse purchase.....
> 
> View attachment 832370
> 
> ...


 Any updates on your impulse buys?


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

todwil said:


> Any updates on your impulse buys?


I'm in Walt's cue for a fork. I have yet to build a fork, and this doesn't seem like the place to learn. I'm going to pick up the rims and spokes soooner than later as they seem to be available at the moment. I've got tubes, using Nova's bent 35mm DT and 29er stays. And I've picked up Paragon's short 44mm HT and lowrider dropouts or it. I'm about to start on a commuter project for a friend, and then the 36er is up.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Pulled the trigger on spokes and rims from Unicycle.com. Shimano LX Centerlock hubs should play well with the 371mm spokes they sell.










Hmmmmmm.......Nimbus might owe someone we know credit for PAYASO GREEN!!!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Nice!!!*

Great color choice there's xtra WATTS/HP in that pigment!!!!:thumbsup: I see your movin' up on WW's list cant wait 
for build thread.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Also any more 36er updates?


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

I've asked Rohloff last year and it seems they will make it!


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