# BEER EBB vs. Niner EBB vs. Sliders vs. Swingers vs. track ends vs. etc.



## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Yes, this is yet another case of the same thread that pops up ever few weeks.

Regardless please share your thoughts especially if you have used multiple different single speed technologies. I am doing some research and always appreciate hearing the most current thinking on this topic.

So far I have personally done all my single speeding with Paragon sliders. They are totally awesome, never slip, never come loose, never creak, etc. Can't even think of a bad thing to say about them.

The only downside of sliders is they are a bit ugly and a little frustrating to fiddle with in terms of wheel alignment when making adjustments.

I keep thinking about doing EBB with PF30 and BEER components but have not yet pulled the trigger. The cool thing about BEER is that the setup is really clean looking and seems like it would work well. I would hate to go down this road and find problems with creaking, bearing wear, etc. I keep thinking about the BEER components but have not yet pulled the trigger and starting a build using them. The Niner EBB is very similar to the BEER ebb and is also interesting, I have several friends who ride Niner and it seems to work well enough. It seems BEER would also work.

Swingers seem to be only slightly different from sliders and as of yet I have not tried them. I honestly am not sure how they compare to sliders in terms of real world usage.

What your your thoughts? Have you ridden the various formats? Which do you prefer and why?

Thanks!


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## hunttofu (Nov 13, 2008)

*Tried them all...*

I have tried all SS tension options except rockers.

Right now I have the new Stumpjumper Carbon SS with the sliders....they're nice but the wheel base is variable.

My absolute favorite out of ALL (except rockers) has been the BEER EBB. On my BB30 cross bike I had enough room to run between an 18, 19 and 20t cog without removing or adding links. If it got crunchy it is easy to pop out and clean....and the phil wood bearings are easily replaced by my LBS for $25.

I had the split shell alloy Stumpjumper. Loved that too BUT it's more difficult to remove for cleaning---and in the dusty or muddy season (all the time) it begins to creak. To clean it you must remove the BB shell. No biggie...just a bit of a pain.

BEER is good for a reason.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Some of my two cents on the topic...

Bad Idea Racing: Why I don't like sliders (and why that shouldn't matter to you)

and another two cents making four total cents.

Bad Idea Racing: Wes Dickson says...


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Ya, I am pretty sure I will pull the trigger on the BEER this time around. I plan to go with a 142x12 through axle next build and much prefer the look of the normal dropout combined with the EBB vs. using the sliders.

Also the sliders are a bit expensive and this next bike will sometimes be setup geared and other times it will be pure single speed. The parts for the sliders are an extra $200 vs. building with a PF-30 shell and using the BEER ebb so that is also a factor in my thinking.


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## 7daysaweek (May 7, 2008)

I've had a two with track ends and one with the niner ebb (I and II). The problem with the niner is that if it gets dirty it gets noisy. Never had slipping issues with it and it's been quiet when clean but after a couple muddy rides it starts getting loud.

I never had a complaint with either bike I ran that had track ends. Used a bolt on hub and once it was in place I was done with it. I had a Jabberwocky with the tensioning screws and currently have a Pugsley without screws and neither seems to have any problem staying in place. 

Haven't heard very many complaints about the BEER EBB though.


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## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

I currently have both Paragon sliders (which I have set up to be run with gears)....










....and Black Cat swingers:










They are both fantastic. If I had to pick one over the other, I would go with the Black Cat swingers as (A) they look totally hot and (B) they're slightly easier to adjust. Speaking of which, I never have any issues with either. The only time I ever adjust is when I swap out gearing. That's it.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

My 11 y/o (steel) Vulture's split shell EBB (Co-Motion eccentric) has been flawless.

--sParty


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## stremf (Dec 7, 2012)

I've tried them all, except some of the funkier designs like the Ibis slot system. There are pros and cons with all of them. My favorite to date is EBB, but just slightly behind is track ends.

I've got a Niner and a Jones. Never had issues with the EBB (knock on wood). I like that I can change the "BB height" and the cleaner looks. Adjustment is super simple. Only con is having to clean the EBB unit more often, but even that's not that big of a deal.

Second is track ends. Stupid simple. Bit more cumbersome to get the rear wheel off, but not bad. The only reason it's #2 is due to brake caliper alignment after gear change. But works great for my fixed gear.

Paragon/Swingers are nice and I never had problems. It's just that they look so hideous, in my opinion.

Off-Topic: febikes, I'm originally from Cary. Never was into MTB back then. Any good trails there? My folks are still around there that I visit once in a while.


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## adinpapa (Dec 4, 2007)

Salsa Alternator in Ti would be dreamy


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## thickfog (Oct 29, 2010)

misterdangerpants said:


> I currently have both Paragon sliders (which I have set up to be run with gears)....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your bikes are making me drool.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

stremf said:


> I've tried them all, except some of the funkier designs like the Ibis slot system. There are pros and cons with all of them. My favorite to date is EBB, but just slightly behind is track ends.


Thanks for the feedback.



stremf said:


> Off-Topic: febikes, I'm originally from Cary. Never was into MTB back then. Any good trails there? My folks are still around there that I visit once in a while.


Ya I live in Raleigh and have 40+ miles of single track that I can access from my front door via Umstead park, ORC, Crabtree, etc. If you ever get out this way bring or borrow a bike.

Back on topic I am sure I will go EBB for my next build but need to decide on BEER vs. other EBB designs. I like the simplicity of BEER and don't see any drawbacks. If I were to go with a BEER EBB fabrication is super simple. On the other hand doing a split shell, Bushnell, or set screw EBB are also options. From the way things look I think I will go BEER but some of you may have better knowledge and/or experience with how the other EBBs work.


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## stremf (Dec 7, 2012)

Never tried BEER. I've been happy with the Niner. Their new design has two bolts, which is supposed to be better (mine is the older version with one bolt). But since their ID is slightly larger than PF/BB30, you will only have one choice. Bushnell on the Jones has been flawless as well. 

I've also never tried set screws either, but I know Niner went away from that design due to problems with the screws leaving divots and/or BB ovalizing.


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## Andy R (Nov 26, 2008)

I have two Singular Hummingbirds with Phil Wood set-screw type EBB's. I've used these for three years now and never had any problem with them, I just take the non drive side crank off every six months or so and remove, clean and regrease the insert/BB shell. I've not had any problems with BB shell ovalisation or excessive marking of the insert - people who have must be over-torqueing the set screws, in my opinion. They don't need any more than 5Nm.
A better system than the Carver expanding wedge type, which in my experience sometimes slips and yet can be a bugger to release if you want to make adjustments.


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## ianick (Jul 10, 2006)

I started my SS life with a Redline Monocog (mmmm poop brown). It had track ends and they worked great. It came with two tensioners, I used them both. I never had a problem. 

Next I purchased a Karate Monkey. KM worked the same and also never had a problem. My only gripe with the KM was that depending on the rear rotor you had to remove the rear brake to change a tire. Somewhat annoying. I run tubeless tires and don't flat too often so it was not a big issue to me.

After breaking my GF X-Cal I received a Ferrous as a warranty replacement. It came with an ebb. The ebb would squeak if you didn't take it apart and clean it every month or two. The squeaking would start quiet and work it's way louder. Other than being annoying there were no other problems with it.

My current SS is a Salsa El Mariachi with Alternator Dropouts. So far this is the easiest setup yet. I appreciate that the tensioners are built in and very easy to work with. I've only had it a few months, not nearly long enough to give much of a review. But so far so good.

My opinion from bikes I have owned:

1. Alternator (swinger)
2. Track ends
3. ebb


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

ianick said:


> ...
> My opinion from bikes I have owned:
> 
> 1. Alternator (swinger)
> ...


There are good EBBs and there are bad EBBs. To lump them all together without accounting for the different kinds would be akin to riding a POS mountain bike from a department store and saying that all mountain bikes are crap.

I'm not saying that you're claiming that all EBBs are crap. I'm adding an explanation because this is a public forum so it's possible some folks considering an EBB frame may draw the conclusion that all EBBs suck based on what you've said.

=sParty


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## tangaroo (Jul 17, 2012)

Track ends fo life! 

But really, I love the idea of the swinger. Maybe my next SS will be a frame with swinger drop outs, but I have two bikes with track ends and have had zero problems.


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## wfo922 (Dec 14, 2009)

Track ends get my vote. Sliders would be the other option for me, but they are a tad fugly.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

teamdicky said:


> Some of my two cents on the topic...
> 
> Bad Idea Racing: Why I don't like sliders (and why that shouldn't matter to you)
> 
> ...


what I do is use a 2' piece of dowelling at the appropriate diameter, and roll it inside the chainstay/tyre on both sides as a quick and easy feeler guage. With that length of dowelling, I just do it leaning over the bike and can sight and adjust the limit screws at the same time easily. No big deal. I prefer to keep BB height the same and change WB and CS, but that is personal. I guess also that the slider has more range than the EBB?


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

finch2 said:


> what I do is use a 2' piece of dowelling at the appropriate diameter, and roll it inside the chainstay/tyre on both sides as a quick and easy feeler guage. With that length of dowelling, I just do it leaning over the bike and can sight and adjust the limit screws at the same time easily. No big deal. I prefer to keep BB height the same and change WB and CS, but that is personal. I guess also that the slider has more range than the EBB?


My new Stickel has been easier to center than my old bike.

Yes, there's greater range with the sliders, but I like to keep my CS length as short as possible. Unfortunately one chain length doesn't do it for me, and I have to run a half link on some gear combos.

My EBB bike does my full three gear range with one chain.


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## PoisonDartFrog (Jul 8, 2010)

Smarter and better riders than me have chimed in on this topic over the years, but here is my humble opinion on the subject. 

This aspect of SS, more than any other, is it's biggest weak point, IMO. We either need special frames, or contraptions, to make the chain fit. And each has advantages and disadvantages, so none really can be said to be the "best". In the end, you find one you like whose advantages outweigh it's downsides, at least in your opinion.

Personally, I don't care for EBB. Haven't tried BEER tho. IF I were to have an EBB I think I'd try to get myself a split BB frame. From what i have heard, those work the best out of all the EBB set-ups.

Rode track ends for a long time and made it work, but they are not my ideal solution. Can be hard to get aligned, can slip, bolted hubs make you carry a wrench, etc.

Sliders/swingers are my preferred solution right now. Perfect? Nope, but for me they work. 

And here is where my opinion usually differs from the majority: I actually don't mind chain tensioners. Yeah, I get the purist/simplicity aesthetic argument (which ironically can also apply to sliders and swingers) but a tensioner works well when installed correctly, is simple, cheap, adds little weight, and opens up EVERY frame to the possibility of SS. I am going thru a mid-life I guess, because I am looking back with nostalgia at the late-80s and early 90s MTBs, and want to SS one. Chain tensioner is the best option here, IMO


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## htfu_aaron (Aug 31, 2010)

The BEER EBB is where it's at. Personally, I love that I don't have to go shopping for a SS-specific frame, anything that's BB30 or PF30 will work. I have a BB30 cross bike and a PF30 29er that I've converted using the BEER EBB and the flexibility in choosing a frame and being able to go back to a full geared set up is huge for me. 
My bike looked like this after the 2011 state CX race and it never made a peep. Sprayed it all off and the Phil Wood bearings still spin like new. Not to mention it's never slipped on me and is super easy to adjust.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

don't forget that sliders just have a dropout insert and in the case of paragon, you can just replace that section with readily available parts. I have the choice of SS, Rohloff, or derailleurs with my paragons. It's exactly what I did when I changed my steel frame from Rohloff to deraileurs. I think it is one more reason for custom bikes to use them as it just allows another level of flexibility. I even asked paragon if they made an insert which would shorten my chainstay but they weren't interested.


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## Mr Pink57 (Jul 30, 2009)

I used sliders on my Inbred and now have a BEER on my Cannondale. And I am very impressed with the BEER and love that I can use it in any BB30 frame in the future. I liked sliders because it's all I knew however having to realign my brakes with a cog/flat change especially during a race is a pain.

If I was going to use a tensioner again I would get the one that installs to your bottom bracket, I think this is much cleaner and less change of damage then a standard chain tensioner.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

Do you mean horizontal drop outs for your Inbred?


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## artnshel (Jul 10, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> Some of my two cents on the topic...
> 
> Bad Idea Racing: Why I don't like sliders (and why that shouldn't matter to you)
> 
> ...


I'm going to try to save someone from the fate I just suffered. I clicked on the link above a few days before riding my new custom SS with sliders for the first time. You know how in dumb horror movies the people know they should leave the house but don't? Don't click on the link. The short version is that it possible that you might be concerned that your rear wheel isn't perfectly aligned with independent sliders vs an ebb. So what, ride, be happy that you don't have an ebb that makes noise and don't worry imperfect alignment. I'm trying not to because it does no harm.


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## thickfog (Oct 29, 2010)

artnshel said:


> I'm going to try to save someone from the fate I just suffered. I clicked on the link above a few days before riding my new custom SS with sliders for the first time. You know how in dumb horror movies the people know they should leave the house but don't? Don't click on the link. The short version is that it possible that you might be concerned that your rear wheel isn't perfectly aligned with independent sliders vs an ebb. So what, ride, be happy that you don't have an ebb that makes noise and don't worry imperfect alignment. I'm trying not to because it does not harm.


Love this! I hate ebb too!


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## Rockin (Apr 29, 2004)

I have used about every method - sliders of different varieties, swingers of different varieties. EBBs of different varieties. My preference is either sliders or swingers for mountain bikes and EBB for cross. Have I had issues with EBBs? Yes, but only the older Niner one-bolt setup. I have a BEER PF30 EBB on my race bike that has a lot of miles on it and has had zero issues.

Why swingers or sliders? Even though I like consistent (and short) chainstay lengths, I found that over longer rides I am more irritated by changes of my buttocks spacial relationship to the bottom bracket. For mountain biking I end up moving my seat around to keep the relationship the same. For me the changes in chainstay length are not really noticeable in the handling department.

Cross is a little different. With the races being shorter I find that I notice the changes in handling from varying slider/swinger position more noticeable than buttocks to BB relationship.


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

On a strictly SS bike, I would personally do horizontal track dropouts with a bolt on wheel. I started off in BMX so it is very natural to me to bolt on a SS wheel. Here are a couple pics of my Karate Monkey that I chopped some bits off of to be strict SS. If I was to have gears down the road I would probably go with Paragon sliders so I could swap out the dropouts for one with a hanger.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

artnshel said:


> So what, ride, be happy that you don't have an ebb that makes noise and don't worry imperfect alignment. I'm trying not to because it does no harm.


Noise doesn't do any harm either...

That said, I have sliders on my ByStickel and both the chainstays and the seatstays are quite symmetrical. I have less of an issue with alignment with them, but I still have an issue.

I can not get the shortest possible stays between three gears with one length of chain. Sure, that's just a nit to pick, but I pick it. With my noise-free EBB I can get my whole range without adding links/swapping the chain.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

teamdicky said:


> Noise doesn't do any harm either...
> 
> ...


My EBB is silent... is there something wrong with it? 

My HonZo is equipped with sliders -- they work great, too. :thumbsup:

What was the question again?

=S


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Sparticus said:


> My EBB is silent... is there something wrong with it?
> 
> My HonZo is equipped with sliders -- they work great, too. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


I think the OP wanted to know what our favorite flavor of ice cream is.


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## Sheepo5669 (May 14, 2010)

Track ends/ sliders/ swingers all allow you to adjust chainstay length which is a big + on a non custom frame.

Also, adjusting an EBB effects fit which bothers me(the concept)


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Sheepo5669 said:


> ...
> Also, adjusting an EBB effects fit which bothers me(the concept)


Yeah guess it's a problem for shorter peeps. Less so for tall ones.

=S


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## Sheepo5669 (May 14, 2010)

Sparticus said:


> Yeah guess it's a problem for shorter peeps. Less so for tall ones.
> 
> =S


I must be missing the joke.

What does rider height have to do with it?


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> I can not get the shortest possible stays between three gears with one length of chain. Sure, that's just a nit to pick, but I pick it. With my noise-free EBB I can get my whole range without adding links/swapping the chain.




If you need to rotate the EBB your chainstay length (the geometrical concept, not the physical one, obviously) is still changing, so I don't understand where the EBB wins here vs the sliders. Thinking specifically about the "I can not get the shortest possible stays" part of the commment. Maybe I didn't understand.

As another point, something I was hoping to get out of this thread but haven't so far: how have people found Paragon rockers stay put vs other methods? As a point of comparison, I have Paragon sliders and they work well with bigger bolts (socket head, not button head) but have had trouble with stuff slipping in the past. I really need something solid. So if there's someone else who's had issues with moving wheels and/or EBBs and not had issues with rockers, that's something I'd really like to hear about. Thanks


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Feldybikes said:


> If you need to rotate the EBB your chainstay length (the geometrical concept, not the physical one, obviously) is still changing, so I don't understand where the EBB wins here vs the sliders. Thinking specifically about the "I can not get the shortest possible stays" part of the commment. Maybe I didn't understand.
> 
> As another point, something I was hoping to get out of this thread but haven't so far: how have people found Paragon rockers stay put vs other methods? As a point of comparison, I have Paragon sliders and they work well with bigger bolts (socket head, not button head) but have had trouble with stuff slipping in the past. I really need something solid. So if there's someone else who's had issues with moving wheels and/or EBBs and not had issues with rockers, that's something I'd really like to hear about. Thanks


Chain stay length, as a function of distance from center BB to center of axle, grows.

Chain stay length, as a function of wheelbase, does not. Also, if you do not adjust your saddle, the relationship between your COG and the rear axle remain the same. This is what affects handling.


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## stremf (Dec 7, 2012)

Feldybikes - the most stout tensioning system I have (and had) is track ends with bolt-on wheels. Not those whimpy aluminum 4mm bolts. I'm talking man-sized 15mm steel bolts cranked down with a proper box wrench. Have had zero issues, personally. But then again, haven't had issues with sliders or EBB, either...


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Cleaning a EBB in an unheated garage in the middle of winter - sucks. Ventana swinger sliders - don't suck.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Sheepo5669 said:


> I must be missing the joke.
> 
> What does rider height have to do with it?


Hey Sheepo, sorry if my answer came off as flippant. Not intended thataway. Anyway, it's no joke.

The total amount of throw a given EBB will reposition a crank spindle remains constant regardless of the size of the rider. Let's say the fore/aft throw in my EBB is ½". This total amount of throw will not change regardless of who's riding my bike, but the amount of BB movement does change as a percentage of how far the saddle is from the crank spindle (in other words, it's relative to the rider's leg length). So to someone with a 36" inseam (me) that ½" throw amounts to 1.4% of my total saddle height. But to someone with, say, a 28" inseam, that ½" throw amounts to 1.8% of their saddle height. This may not sound like a substantive difference, but the .4% difference between 1.4% and 1.8% amounts to a 22% difference in feel for these two riders. This 22% difference can indeed feel significant.

I'm taking a long time to say I might not notice a minor change in the position of my BB compared to someone with shorter legs who adjusted their EBB by the same linear amount.

While it's true that I, like every rider, has a "perfect" saddle height, in the case of a 22% difference in feel, I might not reposition my saddle height after changing my cog by one or two teeth whereas someone with shorter legs couldn't get away with such sloppy bike setup.

--sParty


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## DITD (Nov 21, 2012)

I like the Beer EBB the best.. Built up a Chinese carbon frame wifh one and now its my favorite ride.. I would post a pic of it but im new here and I cant figure out how to post a pic.. it seems all complicated and stuff, like trying to adjust those derailur thingys..


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

DITD said:


> I like the Beer EBB the best.. Built up a Chinese carbon frame wifh one and now its my favorite ride.. I would post a pic of it but im new here and I cant figure out how to post a pic.. it seems all complicated and stuff, like trying to adjust those derailur thingys..


It's been a while since I started out here, and they didn't have any governors on things back then, but I think you might have to have ten posts behind you before you can post photos... or something like that. Anyway welcome & best of luck.

--sParty


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## Sheepo5669 (May 14, 2010)

Sparticus said:


> Hey Sheepo, sorry if my answer came off as flippant. Not intended thataway. Anyway, it's no joke.
> 
> The total amount of throw a given EBB will reposition a crank spindle remains constant regardless of the size of the rider. Let's say the fore/aft throw in my EBB is ½". This total amount of throw will not change regardless of who's riding my bike, but the amount of BB movement does change as a percentage of how far the saddle is from the crank spindle (in other words, it's relative to the rider's leg length). So to someone with a 36" inseam (me) that ½" throw amounts to 1.4% of my total saddle height. But to someone with, say, a 28" inseam, that ½" throw amounts to 1.8% of their saddle height. This may not sound like a substantive difference, but the .4% difference between 1.4% and 1.8% amounts to a 22% difference in feel for these two riders. This 22% difference can indeed feel significant.
> 
> ...


Ahh. I gotcha.

Here is another fact. Shorter people also have smaller brains. So they probably couldnt tell the difference anyway. And gingers too.


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## petersbike (Apr 5, 2006)

Feldybikes said:


> If you need to rotate the EBB your chainstay length (the geometrical concept, not the physical one, obviously) is still changing, so I don't understand where the EBB wins here vs the sliders. Thinking specifically about the "I can not get the shortest possible stays" part of the commment. Maybe I didn't understand.
> 
> As another point, something I was hoping to get out of this thread but haven't so far: how have people found Paragon rockers stay put vs other methods? As a point of comparison, I have Paragon sliders and they work well with bigger bolts (socket head, not button head) but have had trouble with stuff slipping in the past. I really need something solid. So if there's someone else who's had issues with moving wheels and/or EBBs and not had issues with rockers, that's something I'd really like to hear about. Thanks


I have had a few iterations of the GF Rig all w EBB. I have done all kinds of methods for tightening that EBB and have always had slippage issues, never able to find the answer. I have a Bianchi San Jose with horizontal dropouts(track ends) and I have had slippage issues with that . Remedied by using some BMX tugnuts . I have had slippage with that dropout while using bolt on OEM wheel and bolt on White Ind hub wheel.Bolts have been applied in varying amounts of torque. The tugnuts solved the problem but it is a pain in the ass to change and realign the wheel if needed. I also have and ride a Misfit DiSSent with sliders. That too has not been immune to slippage. That one slips more often if you really torque down on those slider bolts.
I have not tried swingers but I feel I could probably make those slip too. Unless.
I feel the best system is either track ends , sliders, or swingers with an accessory tension bolt on each side of the frame. Some EBBs are obiously better than others but I do not like the change in pedal height or the change fore to aft .
What I was getting at is that I can not understand why any sliding dropout system built today does not have tensioning bolts on it.

Walt


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

petersbike said:


> I have had a few iterations of the GF Rig all w EBB. I have done all kinds of methods for tightening that EBB and have always had slippage issues, never able to find the answer. I have a Bianchi San Jose with horizontal dropouts(track ends) and I have had slippage issues with that . Remedied by using some BMX tugnuts . I have had slippage with that dropout while using bolt on OEM wheel and bolt on White Ind hub wheel.Bolts have been applied in varying amounts of torque. The tugnuts solved the problem but it is a pain in the ass to change and realign the wheel if needed. I also have and ride a Misfit DiSSent with sliders. That too has not been immune to slippage. That one slips more often if you really torque down on those slider bolts.
> I have not tried swingers but I feel I could probably make those slip too. Unless.
> I feel the best system is either track ends , sliders, or swingers with an accessory tension bolt on each side of the frame. Some EBBs are obiously better than others but I do not like the change in pedal height or the change fore to aft .
> What I was getting at is that I can not understand why any sliding dropout system built today does not have tensioning bolts on it.
> ...


what may be of some use as well a the tension bolt is another on the other side for the disc brake. The wheel seems to move backwards on that side with disc forces.


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> Chain stay length, as a function of distance from center BB to center of axle, grows.
> 
> Chain stay length, as a function of wheelbase, does not.


Okay. I'm with you.:thumbsup:



teamdicky said:


> Also, if you do not adjust your saddle, the relationship between your COG and the rear axle remain the same. This is what affects handling.


So teamdicky (if that is your real name -- joke!),



-You don't care that much about your exact saddle position (which can be understandable on a singlespeed if you're standing a bunch)
-But how does "the relationship between your COG and the rear axle remain the same?" The BB moved the same amount with the EBB as it would've with sliders. I don't think having it move up and down a bit really does much to the tension vs fore and aft....quick excursion to Excel where I find that for a theoretical CSL from EBB center of 17" with a 0.25" radius of throw, going from 3 o'clock (rear wheel is on the right) to 6 o'clock changes the CSL by 0.251", but 0.25" of that is from the horizontal movement and 0.001" is from going up and down...yeah that seems right. So point being the overall wheelbase remains the same, but you shift fore or aft on the bike when you use an EBB by the same amount that the CSL moves back if using sliders.
Is it accurate that you'd rather have, for example, your COG shift forward (and down or up) by 0.25" than have your wheelbase extend by 0.25" and have your COG shift back by 1/8"?

(yes, I totally mixed ways of displaying numbers there -- at least I didn't say 6mm)

Just trying to understand your reasoning.

On the other subject. Yes, I agree, tensioners/tugs are key with horizontal dropouts. I've had luck with 15mm bolts, too, but I really like having vertical dropouts with disc brakes. I guess the question was specific to the Paragon rockers where the two bolts move in different directions if that effectively keeps them from slipping.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Feldybikes said:


> -You don't care that much about your exact saddle position (which can be understandable on a singlespeed if you're standing a bunch)
> -But how does "the relationship between your COG and the rear axle remain the same?" The BB moved the same amount with the EBB as it would've with sliders. I don't think having it move up and down a bit really does much to the tension vs fore and aft....quick excursion to Excel where I find that for a theoretical CSL from EBB center of 17" with a 0.25" radius of throw, going from 3 o'clock (rear wheel is on the right) to 6 o'clock changes the CSL by 0.251", but 0.25" of that is from the horizontal movement and 0.001" is from going up and down...yeah that seems right. So point being the overall wheelbase remains the same, but you shift fore or aft on the bike when you use an EBB by the same amount that the CSL moves back if using sliders.
> [/LIST]
> Is it accurate that you'd rather have, for example, your COG shift forward (and down or up) by 0.25" than have your wheelbase extend by 0.25" and have your COG shift back by 1/8"?
> ...


I do not care much about saddle position. When I move my EBB forward, up, down, backwards... I never move my saddle. I know some people do.

Anyways, I'm saying my body's COG (center of gravity)/rear axle relationship remains the same since I do not change my position on the bike and the axle stays in the same place. I only use three gears in the rear (equivalent to 32X18,19, and 20). When I had a slider bike (and did not use the half-link), I could notice a difference in handling with the 18 VS the 20. I never noticed it on my EBB bike.

Maybe I'm picky and insane. I like to ride my bike from way back... my bikes have slack angles and I use layback posts. I like being as far back over the rear axle as possible. Maybe it's because I'm tiny and I think manuals are pretty cool (and I need all the help in the world pulling them off).


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

teamdicky said:


> ... When I move my EBB forward, up, down, backwards... I never move my saddle. ... I'm tiny...


Well there goes my theory about only tall people not needing to adjust their EBB after changing cog sizes.

Humbled again... still learning.

=S


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Sparticus said:


> Well there goes my theory about only tall people not needing to adjust their EBB after changing cog sizes.
> 
> Humbled again... still learning.
> 
> =S


If it's an extreme jump (the 18 to the 20... which is now the 21 to the 23 since I started running a 38T ring), I might adjust saddle height, but never fore and aft.

I pedal from the back, the middle, and sometimes the highly elevated nose of my saddle. I'm a moving mess.

I'm sure if I had knee issues or cared about "performance" and "bike fit," this would not be the case.

Manuals and driveway wheelie tests. That's all.


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> ...


Thanks for the explanation. This is somewhat fascinating to me since your hangups about bike fit are totally opposite mine (I almost couldn't care less about wheel position, but saddle position sometimes drives me nuts).

One more question just so I understand: when lifting the front wheel you can tell the difference with a 1/2" longer CSL & wheelbase, but you can't tell the difference with a 1/2" longer CSL but same wheelbase (i.e. 1/2" shorter front-center). This would be sliders vs. EBB, respectively.

I should probably stop lest I risk making you more crazy about weird bike fit stuff than your blog posts already claim you to be.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Feldybikes said:


> One more question just so I understand: when lifting the front wheel you can tell the difference with a 1/2" longer CSL & wheelbase, but you can't tell the difference with a 1/2" longer CSL but same wheelbase (i.e. 1/2" shorter front-center). This would be sliders vs. EBB, respectively.


Yes.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Feldybikes said:


> ... so I understand: when lifting the front wheel you can tell the difference with a 1/2" longer CSL & wheelbase, but you can't tell the difference with a 1/2" longer CSL but same wheelbase (i.e. 1/2" shorter front-center). This would be sliders vs. EBB, respectively. ...


May I offer another perspective on this?

For me, the ease of lofting the front wheel largely has to do with saddle / rear axle positional relationship, eg: how much one "sits over the rear wheel." This saddle / axle positional relationship doesn't change on an EBB frame when the chain length is adjusted. However it does change on a frame equipped with sliders when chain length is adjusted.

What I'm saying is this. It's not so much the half inch change in wheelbase or chainstay length or front center that some riders -- me, at least -- notice, it's the change in saddle / rear axle relationship that's most detectable.

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself here, but I wouldn't be surprised if other riders feel similarly. For proof, try this. Do some wheelies. Then move your rear axle ½" rearward (or move your saddle ½" forward) and see if you notice a difference in trying to get the front wheel off the ground.

=S


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## james-o (Nov 8, 2010)

I only ever adjust my saddle height when making 'center to end' of range adjsustments on an EBB.Track ends / sliders bug me more as chainstay length feels less vital to handling than bar-to-rear axle, imo. 
So


> One more question just so I understand: when lifting the front wheel you can tell the difference with a 1/2" longer CSL & wheelbase, but you can't tell the difference with a 1/2" longer CSL but same wheelbase (i.e. 1/2" shorter front-center). This would be sliders vs. EBB, respectively.


 I'd agree with that.

I've had zero issues with my Bushnells (faultless on 2 bikes over 1000s of miles, loaded and SS), a split-shell would be my second choice but I do think Bushnells are a long way ahead of the other solutions. BB30 adapters appear good but I've no experience there. Track ends are solid but the axle can move under braking, though it doesn't damage anything really and is rare. I'm wary of sliders / swingers, there's good ones that have a sound rep but I've seen issues with others when used by strong riders, bigger rotors, loaded bikes etc.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Thanks guys!

I ordered the parts for a PF30 based BEER ebb.

-Mark


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## Hauffy (Sep 25, 2012)

A question for those with split frame type EBB setups(i have a 2011 Rockhopper with split frame). Is there a certain type of lube that should be used on the EBB cartridge to stop it creaking? I kinda remember something mentioning a Brake anti squeal product?
This creaking is driving me crazy :/


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Hauffy said:


> A question for those with split frame type EBB setups(i have a 2011 Rockhopper with split frame). Is there a certain type of lube that should be used on the EBB cartridge to stop it creaking? I kinda remember something mentioning a Brake anti squeal product?
> This creaking is driving me crazy :/


I've always used whatever heavy grease I have lying around the garage. Never a squeek.

Hmmm... wonder why yours is creaking. Have you also greased the threads & heads of the pinch bolts? The BB itself? Is everything properly torqued?

I assume you've got a steel frame and an aluminum eccentric, yes?

--sParty


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

petersbike said:


> I have had a few iterations of the GF Rig all w EBB. I have done all kinds of methods for tightening that EBB and have always had slippage issues, never able to find the answer.
> <snip>
> ... Some EBBs are obiously better than others but I do not like the change in pedal height or the change fore to aft .
> What I was getting at is that I can not understand why any sliding dropout system built today does not have tensioning bolts on it.


I had a GF Rig for about 1 year. The EBB was generally trouble free after I figured out that leaving the chain a bit loose seemed to keep the squeaks away. Sometimes when I'd do deep water crossings it would squawk but that was about it.

I built up a rigid 2010 Niner SIR w/EBB ~4 months ago. Niner's EBB appears to be an improvement as its never been a problem thus far. Only thing I did was put teflon tape around the EBB shell.


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## God's Favorite Bike (Dec 14, 2011)

If you have a Rockhopper You have an aluminum frame (I have 2) And Sparticus' reply about greasing the assembly is sound. Also since both parts are aluminum, which has a tendency to "leach". It is similar to oxidizing, the aluminum can get a sort of white crust on it's surface. Look at an old set of magnesium car rims or an old carb. and you'll see what I mean. So the parts have a slightly irregular surface where they mate.

Disassemble your bottom bracket and clean/steel wool everything with a fine steel wool. Grease, reassemble and torque. You can also use the "gritty lube" like for carbon parts to lubricate and facilitate a more solid contact point and facilitate a lighter torque as well. Niner recommends a wrap of teflon tape around the EBB shell and little if any grease. Experiment. Think how smart you'll be by the time you fix it.:madman:

Also (and I am not taking you for an idiot by asking) but does your creak stop when you coast? Try that with your feet up across something bumpy. Still have a creak? Lube your seat rails and seat post contact area and where the rails actually go into seat. Flip seat and spray w/WD40 on rail insertion points and let that soak into it a little and wipe off.

Still creaking now? No? cool...Yes? Kick your bike and make a mad face at it and guilt it into shutting up. Good luck.

DOH! answering at same time as e-dub


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## Hauffy (Sep 25, 2012)

Thanks guys  What i've tried so far-
Pulled the crankset out and cleaned it(looked fine).
Bottom bracket bearings felt super smooth.
Removed chainring, cleaned it and re-torqued it up.
Removed pedals and re-torqued(also tried different pedals).
Remvoved the cog, cleaned everything and re-torqued.
Frame has no visible cracks.
creaks mostly when i'm standing up and is getting louder.
EBB cartridge was installed with automotive grease 
Q- what should i torque the split frame bolts up to?



I'll pull the EBB cartridge out, clean it, and maybe try teflon tape or something similar.


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## C-Dawg (Jan 15, 2010)

Did you lube the threads and the head of the bolts in the EBB? I had a creak that I couldn't get rid of and what got rid of it was putting some grease around and under the head of the bolts that tighten the EBB together. Just a thought...


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## Hauffy (Sep 25, 2012)

I always use anti seize on all bolt threads, but, I may not have put anti size on the head of bolts. Something else to try.... Before I get the shits and buy another frame :/


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## stremf (Dec 7, 2012)

God's Favorite Bike said:


> .Niner recommends a wrap of teflon tape around the EBB shell and little if any grease.


Actually, they're now recommending either using Oatey's Joint Compound (found at Home Depot/Lowes) or Carbo-paste--NO grease. But if the Teflon tape works, then go with it.

I found the key is to CLEAN everything with alcohol (BB, BB shell, etc). And use a torque wrench.


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

stremf said:


> Actually, they're now recommending either using Oatey's Joint Compound (found at Home Depot/Lowes) or Carbo-paste--NO grease. But if the Teflon tape works, then go with it.
> 
> I found the key is to CLEAN everything with alcohol (BB, BB shell, etc). And use a torque wrench.


I use the Oatey stuff on my Beer EBB and it works great. Quiet and allows for easy adjustment between gears.

I also think it's funny to mention saddle position in a SS thread when we are out of the saddle a good portion of the time..........and I have a dropper post anyway.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

88 rex said:


> ...
> I also think it's funny to mention saddle position in a SS thread when we are out of the saddle a good portion of the time..........


This is a ridiculous statement. 

--sParty


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## Hauffy (Sep 25, 2012)

Well, i couldn't get my hands on either Carbopaste or a sealing compound but i tried a couple of things anyway.
First up i removed the EBB cartridge and cleaned it and the frame. I taped up the cartridge with teflon tape and smeared it with lithium grease. It was much quieter but it still creaks a bit. 
Second attempt i cleaned everything again and installed the cartridge wrapped in teflon tape but with no grease. It seemed to creak slightly more than without the lithium grease but much better than it was.
I'll go for a ride tomorrow night and see what it's like. Keen to find some type of sealing compound such as the Oateys and try that too.


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## jetboy23 (Jun 14, 2011)

Hauffy, have you tried the gasket method described here http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/n...ing-any-suggestions-728715-3.html#post8414361 ? "If" i get creaking, thats the route i will try first. My BB (Soul Cycles Hooligan) is very tight on the Biocentric and tape, carbo grip, or joint compound all sound messy compared to a simple gasket and maybe 1-2nm extra torque.


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## Hauffy (Sep 25, 2012)

jetboy23 said:


> Hauffy, have you tried the gasket method described here http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/n...ing-any-suggestions-728715-3.html#post8414361 ? "If" i get creaking, thats the route i will try first. My BB (Soul Cycles Hooligan) is very tight on the Biocentric and tape, carbo grip, or joint compound all sound messy compared to a simple gasket and maybe 1-2nm extra torque.


That won't work with this style of EBB cartridge BUT it has given me some ideas! ) Will probably have another play with it on Sunday.


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## jetboy23 (Jun 14, 2011)

Sorry, i saw a bunch of talk about Niner and figured you had the Biocentric. If you ever want to try out a Carver EBB, PM me.


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