# Lupine with upcoming new Betty / Wilma / Piko models



## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Lupine with upcoming new Betty / Wilma / Piko models

On the "eurobike" fair, which will take place Aug. 29-Sept. 1 2012 in Friedrichshafen (Germany), Lupine will present (as far as I can gather) new products of their Betty / Wilma / Piko lines.

Some comparison images/pictures were already made available on their homepage, the "2012" Models being the current known lamps, and the "2013" being the new stuff to come. 
See here: Lupine Lighting Systems - Produkte - Leuchtvergleich 
(select lamps in the dropdown menues, switch with mouse hovering). Markings on 10/20/30/40 meters, end of street is around 100 meters.
No details were made public about these new models (watt, lumen, leds, features etc.).

regards


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## derekbob (May 4, 2005)

Do Germans like the Flintstones or something? Why didn't they call the Piko the Pebbles? Will they ever come out with the Fred or Barney?


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## OldAusDigger (Apr 8, 2008)

derekbob said:


> Do Germans like the Flintstones or something? Why didn't they call the Piko the Pebbles? Will they ever come out with the Fred or Barney?


Or how about the Fred's boss aka "Mr Slate"?


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

CHnuschti said:


> Lupine with upcoming new Betty / Wilma / Piko models
> 
> On the "outdoor" fair, which will take place July 12-15 2012 in Friedrichshafen (Germany), Lupine will present (as far as I can gather) new products of their Betty / Wilma / Piko lines.
> 
> ...


 Interesting stuff. The improvment looks most impressive with the Wilma upgrade for 2013. Looks to me almost as bright as the T-6 2012 Betty. I never ended up upgrading my XPG Betty/Wilma as i just havent been a big fan of the color rendition from the T-6's i've seen as i find them to warm and green for my old eyes even though i don't see evidence of the greenish hue in Lupine's beem shots.
If the real world beam is depicted accurately in their beam shots, a two Wilma setup will be outstanding and less money than jumping into a Betty with Betty like performance. I wonder what the upgrades are? U-2's and more watts, or the newest leds which i forget the name of at the momen?


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Thanks for the link. I am with indent on this. The Wilma upgrade is pretty impressive and the center shot and reach appears pretty close to the Betty 2012 or even the Betty R 2013 that is shown. I too think the "upgrades" are merely making sure all LED's are XM-L U2 bin emitters.

Looking forward to this release. Wonder if they will give the Wilma TL and Piko TL the upgrades at the same time. These should be updated with a lower low output. And a double tap hold for moonlight type 5 lumen output.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Well. The Lupine boss made an announcement about the upcoming gear on the Lupine forum a while ago, one a bit more enthusiastic than usual, so one had some expectations what would come. The upcoming Betty, announced to be available after the mentioned "eurobike" fair, is called Betty R, and some think it will have a remote switch, but these are all unconfirmed speculations.

So as the comparison pictures came up, there was some disillusioned murmuring regarding the "new" Betty, as the picture comparison was not really breathtaking. However, the boss opinion is that seen it in real it gives a bit more enhancement as what the pictures promise.
And indeed the popular opinion is that Wilma seems to give the best increase of the 3 lines, reaches up the actual Betty as it seems.

Just throwing in more watts does not the job obviously, it depends also from the optics etc.

One german guy made an interesting lamp, built up from a Lupine Betty board (7 XML leds). It looks like a Betty, but as he describes everything up to the board&optics is self-made, he calls the lamp AK7 and is said to give out 4000 real lumens.
It is interesting to see in the beamshot pictures at 25W (equals approx. the real Betty) and at 50W, that doubling the watts does not give a somewhat doubled illumination. While still an impressive enhancement, it gives less that one would expect.
See here.

regards


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## BriteLumens (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi all,

Pardon me. It's my first post here. In fact, I was encourage to post here by some riders from CPF and some of them are using earlier Lupine Betty. I made some board earlier this month for the Betty users with a upgrade board base on authentic Cree XML U2 bins emitter.


Sorry, somehow I need to post 10 posts before I can add images.

Let me know if someone can help here and I will send you the images link.


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## BriteLumens (Feb 13, 2008)

Will add some photos once I am able to, else please click on my signature.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Oops, I made a mistake/did misinform.
The fair on which the new Lupine gear will be presented is the "eurobike", which takes place Aug. 29-Sept. 1 2012 in Friedrichshafen (Germany).
So later than the previous information given im my opening post, which said "outdoor" fair July 12-15 2012 (also in Friedrichshafen). Sorry.

regards


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

BriteLumens said:


> are using earlier Lupine Betty. I made some board earlier this month for the Betty users with a upgrade board base on authentic Cree XML U2 bins emitter.


I must ask what the point is in this, apart the commercial interest? I am told your "authentic XML U2 leds" are indeed used anyway by Lupine in the current models, and there are also upgrade boards available at Lupine, for Betty and Wilma, even with different optics&distribution. I see you pieces are even offered on ebay with claims of "9000" and "7000" lumes , what is hugely exaggerated, if used on standard Betty sets.

And I add from personal experience, that if you use a board with XML leds with the original 16 degree optics of the older Bettys, there may be some slight shadows in the beamshot, since the 16 degree optics is designed for the smaller XPG leds.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Lupine has published a picture of the new Betty R mounted on a mountainbike. 
• Thema anzeigen - Betty R
You can't recognize really much, but this was intended, a kind of "guess what is coming" thread.
Nevertheless, zooming in you can recognize that probably there is a major change in the lens.

Regards


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Lupine are using XPG R-5 and T-6 leds in their 2012 models, some suspect they may be going to the U-2 bin for 2013 myself included, maybe even the new version of the XPG called XPG-2 which has up to 20% more output. Based on the photos on Lupines website i would be confident in saying they must also have upgraded their driver boards.

I agree using the 16 degree optics with XML would be a big mistake. A quick fix though would be to order the proper optic used in the 2600 lumen betty from Gretna and problem solved.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

cue003 said:


> Thanks for the link. I am with indent on this. The Wilma upgrade is pretty impressive and the center shot and reach appears pretty close to the Betty 2012 or even the Betty R 2013 that is shown. I too think the "upgrades" are merely making sure all LED's are XM-L U2 bin emitters.
> 
> Looking forward to this release. Wonder if they will give the Wilma TL and Piko TL the upgrades at the same time. These should be updated with a lower low output. And a double tap hold for moonlight type 5 lumen output.


 Hey cue003, here's a heads-up. For the record this is unconfirmed but from a good source. Speculation is the upgrades will be passed on to the Wilma TL/ Betty TL/S. However wont be seen in the flashlights until the end of the year. Unconfirmed outputs have the Wilma pushing up to 2400 lumens and the Betty up to 3600 lumens.:yikes:


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Indebt,

Man those are some impressive numbers. Sort of glad now that other things came up that made me not purchase the flashlights in the past. I guess I will wait till Christmas and give myself a good present. 

And I hope they can do these upgrades and not have to increase the battery size/requirements for the TL lineup.

3600 from the Betty TL would be killer. I bet it will get pretty damn hot after just a few minutes of "flashlight" type usage since you won't have the constant moving air as you would by mounting on a bike.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Right now Lupine has their Betty TL-S which has the same tiny 2.5 Ah battery that my Wilma TL has, but of coarse with the 2600 lumen Betty head screwed on,,,,, just unbelievable technology to make that work on a 4.5" flashlight. I don't think my Wilma battery would work on the Betty head as Lupine must have done some mods to accommodate the high draw, not sure though. So i do think you will be able to get the tiny battery for the 2400 lumen Wilma TL if it infact it happens. 3600 lumens on the other hand may have to be committed to the 5Ah battery for it to handle the draw and heat sinking.

I dont know cue003 if you have seen the Wilma TL in person, if so you would know just how small this thing is at just over four inches. Now to already have a 2600 lumen version in the Betty TL-S available just blows me away. The Betty TL is longer with the 5Ah battery.

Either way, they will get hot. No way around it with that much output.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt said:


> Lupine are using XPG R-5 and T-6 leds in their 2012 models, some suspect they may be going to the U-2 bin for 2013 myself included,* maybe even the new version of the XPG called XPG-2 which has up to 20% more output.*


Since you mentioned the new XP-G2 that has currently been released by Cree, I think I should note that it is quite possible that Cree will release an Upgraded version of the XM-L which will likely be called XM-L2. At least that's the chatter I'm hearing from the DIY crew. No idea when that will actually happen but it wouldn't surprise me to see something out by Christmas.

If it does happen this year, EVERYONE is going to want the XM-L2 upgrade! If the XP-G upgrade was 20% more output the bigger die of the XML might yield a 30% increase in output. ( Oh how I love to dream..... )


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

indebt said:


> some suspect they may be going to the U-2 bin for 2013 myself included,


The Lupine boss himself said, the XML "U2" leds are in fact already used/mounted in the current (2012) models.

regards


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanx for clearing that up CHnuschti, i will double check my source to confirm my mistake as i found it hard to understand what Wolf was saying on that link. If in fact the existing 2600 lumen Betty is using 7 U-2's, either Cat-man-do hit the nail on the head with speculation of a XM-L2, or Lupine is putting in one heck of a driver upgrade to get anywhere near the 3600 lumens.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Recieved email from Stefan, and yes U-2's are confirmed for me:blush:. Also housing on 2013 models have been changed to accommodate the brand new drivers with a complete new layout of the Betty. Not sure if that means they have changed the 7-upboard.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

indebt said:


> Recieved email from Stefan, and yes U-2's are confirmed for me:blush:. Also housing on 2013 models have been changed to accommodate the brand new drivers with a complete new layout of the Betty. Not sure if that means they have changed the 7-upboard.


So U-2 confirmed in the 2012 lights.... Good deal. I wonder if they made an internal switch somewhere quietly? I, like indebt, thought they were different. At last thought that when they were coming out last year etc.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

The new model 2013 of the Lupine Piko is available already in the Lupine shop:
Piko X6 - Artikeldetailansicht - Lupine Webshop

It says: 13W, 22 degree, 900 lumen, the Lupine boss says the lens/optics also has been revised. Can't say if the pictures in the shop reflect the new model, my guess is they show still the older model.
The specs of the older model 2012 were 10W, 22 degree, 750lumen, 2 XM-L

regards


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

My guess is the 2013 Piko will be a little different that the photo shown. 13 watts in the 2012 housing would just be to hard to heat sink effectively in my view. Same with the Wilma and Betty as potential outputs mentioned would also be a problem in the 2012 housings.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

So all the light outputs are going to be increasing..... Anyone know if they plan to implement a lower low output to make the "headlamp" and "flashlight" more well rounded?


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Some insight from the Lupine boss about the new Piko : also the Piko flashlight (PTL) comes with 13W, but also has an "eco" mode where then she runs like the older 2012 model with max. 750 lumens. Piko and PTL can be run down to 0.3W, and he says all availalbe modes do run without any flickering. He says that running Piko and PTL in some minimal motion or at typical night temperatures there will occur no downstepping in the output of 900 lumens due to the temperature (driver) regulation.

PTL available tomorrow in the Lupine shop.

regards


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Uff, more news, I see.

The new Wilma 2013: 28W, 2400 lumen, up to 4 modes, will be available only as 26 degree version. Same price as before, available mid August.

Current batteries will be still compatible with the new models. And a new bottle battery with approx. 18 Ah is also announced.

regards


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

CHnuschti,

Thank you for keeping the information coming our way. Great news for the new PTL being in their webshop tomorrow. Wonder when it will make its way to our shores here in the USA. 

Really pumped to see the PTL MInimax and the new 2400 lumen Wilma TL.... Anxious to see what the Betty TL looks like. Damn that is a ton of output and those batteries are going to be stressed. I did see wolf mention new capacity batteries so we shall see.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Great info for sure CHnuschti,,,, Thanx man!!:thumbsup:


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Looks like the new Piko with 13w and 900lumens is available and ready for shipping from Gretna. Sweet.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Since you mentioned the new XP-G2 that has currently been released by Cree, I think I should note that it is quite possible that Cree will release an Upgraded version of the XM-L which will likely be called XM-L2. At least that's the chatter I'm hearing from the DIY crew. No idea when that will actually happen but it wouldn't surprise me to see something out by Christmas.
> 
> If it does happen this year, EVERYONE is going to want the XM-L2 upgrade! If the XP-G upgrade was 20% more output the bigger die of the XML might yield a 30% increase in output. ( Oh how I love to dream..... )


Well since the 13w 900 lumen piko is already available stateside, I'm going to guess that Lupine hasnt secured the XM-L2 for these new lights since I don't think the new XM-L2 arent out yet.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

The manuals of the new Piko / Piko TL / Wilma 2013 have been made available, revealing more details and explaining the available modes (english in the second half of the manuals):
Lupine Lighting Systems - Support - Anleitungen 2012

regards


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanx CHnuschti, you just cost me a new light budget:yesnod:. Can't resist the temptation,, these upgrades are sick and when the Betty's are disclosed i think i will have to pull the trigger once Gretna has them.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

More news, of the new " Betty R "
Case: • Thema anzeigen - Betty R
Mount for the remote switch (raw from the milling): • Thema anzeigen - Betty R
Specs: 40W, 3600 lumen, remote (wireless) switch but still with also a switch on the lamp head: • Thema anzeigen - Betty R

regards

EDIT: there will be only one head version with a 26 degree lens. The lens has been slightly revised.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Holy ish. 40w Betty...:eekster:

That is going to be insanely hot. Wow. Going to be bright for sure just hope it is actually usable after being on for a while... Then again I guess that is why it has a remote switch. 


My face is getting hot just imagining that thing as a headlamp at full blast.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Some details of the Betty R :
- Pics/the real thing will not be seen before the eurobike fair (Aug. 29 - Sept. 1).
- The new battery packs 5.6/8.4/11.2 Ah use "new" cells. Betty R needs from 5.5A upwards to run on 100%.
- Betty R as set with battery will be offered only with a battery above 5.6Ah.
- Heat management: Betty R will run on 100% at 25 kilometers per hour motion and 20 degree celsius (ambient) and will dim down if slower/hotter.

regards


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

CHnuschti said:


> ......
> - Heat management: Betty R will run on 100% at 25 kilometers per hour motion and 20 degree celsius (ambient) and will dim down if slower/hotter.
> 
> regards


So that is a small window of usage for 100%...

25km/h = 15.5 mph
20 deg c = 68 deg f ( that elimates my area of south eastern USA. )


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

I do agree, looks like a somewhat high threshold. I'm not really performant on the mountainbike, but I never reach an average of 25 km/h, that is sure. On the other hand, IMO it is debatable if you really "need" such an output if rolling with less than 25 km/h.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Must get one as it will melt the snow in those winter rides. I think at least in my neck of the woods the Betty will still be effective as we dont have those long really hot summers the lower states have. Really no need for 3600 lumens unless riding with some purpose. Thats the con i guess,(if you could call it one) for keeping the package size, and weight down.

CHnuschti,,, any word on the finished weight of the Betty lamp head???


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

cue003 said:


> So that is a small window of usage for 100%...
> 
> 25km/h = 15.5 mph
> 20 deg c = 68 deg f ( that elimates my area of south eastern USA. )


Yeah, that will do it for me. The 15.5mph AND 68F is going to make ti tough.

The Wilma at 2400 lumens looks fantastic. I'll probably jump for one of those. I have the 1500 lumen one now. That would be perfect for road riding.

J.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

indebt said:


> CHnuschti,,, any word on the finished weight of the Betty lamp head???


They did not write anything about the weight.

But I agree, for several "common" bike lamp users, like myself, using the gear mainly in spring/winter/fall just to be able to ride the usual training lap in the evening, I don't think the threshold 25 km/h / 20 degree celsius will be much of an issue, unless you live in a southern country.

I'm "only" using a Betty 22W with newest upgrade, with around some 2000 lumen, but in my evening/"night" rides in said seasons the lamp temperature never nearly has been an issue, from what I recall the head never was something above hand-hot.

And of course it is the combination of motion/temperature that matters, not both as absolute values. So it will be a combination of for example 25 kmh/20 deg C, 18 kmh/15 deg C, 10kmh/10 deg C (my guess!) etc. to have the head dim down.

regards


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Exactly, our night riding season will start in just a few weeks (Sept), and last until March. Evening tempuratures at their warmest will be 10C and between November through March more like -5/+5C. Thankfully i live in pretty much the mildest place in Canada so can ride most of the winter months and the stats of the new Betty will work just fine for me. 
My only issue now is what to do with my 24 watt XPG Betty and 17 watt XPG Wilma once i've upgraded??? Cheers!!!


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Wilma 2400 lumen should be made available any day now.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I guess availability will only be from the Lupine store itself???? Haven't been able to get any response from Gretna on availability.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Indebt,

You are correct. It is supposed to be available in lupine store between aug 20-25. I was going to try Gretna as well but it looks like you already tried that. 

Thx


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

And now for me the sad news is the upgrades to either the Betty TL or Wilma TL or even maybe a Betty R TL are not really even on the map for this year... the main focus for the Lupine guys are the bike likes for now with the upgrades (if any) to the bigger flashlights later on down the road sometime.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Well don't rule out the existing Betty TL-S cue003. Only 4.5" long and if you want punch stay with the 7X XPG at 2050lumens. I'm telling you it will be very impressive for this tiny package. If bike light upgrades weren't in my near future i would have already ordered one for myself despite having a Wilma TL. I prefer range over flood on my torches.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

indebt said:


> Well don't rule out the existing Betty TL-S cue003. Only 4.5" long and if you want punch stay with the 7X XPG at 2050lumens. I'm telling you it will be very impressive for this tiny package. If bike light upgrades weren't in my near future i would have already ordered one for myself despite having a Wilma TL. I prefer range over flood on my torches.


Was hoping for the slightly smaller form factor of the Wilma TL vs the Betty TL-S and also the much lower low output that would be useful when using the flashlight indoors.

Will have to ponder the TL-s approach.

Thanks.

--cue


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## mehukatti (Sep 21, 2005)

Will there be any new upgrades for old Bettys?


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

I spoke with Gretna bikes yesterday and looks like Lupine has been busy. From what I was told the lights received a driver upgrade pushing the LED emitters harder than last year. The remote switch is going to be an upgrade along with potential mounting options taking advantages of other high end markets as well. The Piko is already available to be followed by the Wilma and later Betty model. Honestly running the 1500lumen Wilma I am excited to see what a 3600 lumen Betty would look like on the trail.

As far as upgrades since it is a driver update over the emitters or lens your looking at buying a new light head. (I was hoping to upgrade as well)


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

At last:
Eurobike 2012 - Lupine Betty R, Wilma und Piko
The only real surprise is the new Betty mount, which is a mistakee IMHO.
I am no longer interested in either the Betty or the Wilma though, they've both became way too bright for my typical rides. 
I'm wondering though whether the traditional symmetrical lenses will be any good at 3600 lumens (? you must be kidding, man), even at 1000 lumens there is annoyingly too much light directly in front of the bike.


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## mehukatti (Sep 21, 2005)

radirpok said:


> I am no longer interested in either the Betty or the Wilma though, they've both became way too bright for my typical rides.
> I'm wondering though whether the traditional symmetrical lenses will be any good at 3600 lumens (? you must be kidding, man), even at 1000 lumens there is annoyingly too much light directly in front of the bike.


You have a beam that is too narrow. 26 degree lens spreads the light over big area and makes good use of all those lumens, and doesn't blind you.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

I wonder if is more cost efficient to send the lights to Germany through Gretna to get the upgrades? selling the "old" version of them seems very difficult since the market is so small
thoughts?


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

As I understand there are no upgrades this year. So either sell your lights on ebay, or.... don't


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

The new Betty R will be available up from end September 2012, according to an announcement in the Lupine shop.

As for upgrades for Betty/Wilma, nothing was said/written so far from Lupine side, so I would not exclude upgrades categorically already now. I do agree it is unlikely, given the higher wattage the new gear has, but we will see.

regards


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

My understanding is the housing itself has been changed on the Betty to accomodate the bran new driver so don't think the 40watt driver upgrade will be an option for my Betty2. Not sure the specs for the Wilma?, but am guessing the same for the 28 watt driver.


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## JMCCRNA (Dec 2, 2005)

On there web store page Lupine makes a note under the Betty R Lamphead only :


"Notice regarding battery use: Our Betty R is an extraordinary powerfull light and to run it on battery, at minimum a 5.6 Ah battery, or better a 8.4 Ah battery is recommended. Cause of the high currents we also use a new type of battery cell with all new Smartcore batteries."

Does this sound like the older batteries might not be up to the task? I have a 14.5 Ma battery that has seen little use I would like to pair with a betty R. By the statement it should be ok, but will my battery be working overtime?

Joe


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

That is a big battery with a lot of capacity, as long as there are no week cells and their holding most of their original capacity i don't think there would be much strain at all.


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## rschultz101 (Oct 5, 2009)

large battery 14.5ah should be fine, in theory
for what I heard, is Lupine improved the connector , to handle the current, and used thicker cables.
the old bottles batteries, for what I can remember, it has an additional connector inside.....
what could be a bottleneck. 
why did the 14.5ah battery see little use ?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Any body have any idea when the new wilmas will be available in the US?

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Still no spacific timeline John. I gave up asking Gretna as my last two emails were uncharacteristacally ignored. My guess is there should be something from Gretna very soon now that Interbike has ended.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Yeah. Me too. I don' think they know because I don't think Lupine is telling them. The problem is that it's rapidly getting colder here so I have about another month to 6 weeks of night riding before we start to look at below freezing temps. I don't ride once the ground freezes just because there can be frozen ice/frost on the roads. I hate riding with studded tires on top of it all. So, I hang it up then.

6 weeks to use my 2400 lumen wilma..... 

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Hey John,,, Good news!!!! Just checking Gretna and see the new 28 watt Wilma set listed. However, only seing the 19 watt Wilma listed under lamphead section. May just be they havent updated that part of the website yet. Maybe i'll try a third email and see if i get a response.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> Yeah. Me too. I don' think they know because I don't think Lupine is telling them. The problem is that it's rapidly getting colder here so I have about another month to 6 weeks of night riding before we start to look at below freezing temps. I don't ride once the ground freezes just because there can be frozen ice/frost on the roads. I hate riding with studded tires on top of it all. So, I hang it up then.
> 
> 6 weeks to use my 2400 lumen wilma.....
> 
> J.


 John,,, I spoke to Gretna and they just put the new 28 watt Wilma lamp head in their lamp head section ready for purchase.Cheers!!!


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

And they also updated and have the new 900 lumen Piko TL's available on Gretnas site.


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## JMCCRNA (Dec 2, 2005)

rschultz101 said:


> large battery 14.5ah should be fine, in theory
> for what I heard, is Lupine improved the connector , to handle the current, and used thicker cables.
> the old bottles batteries, for what I can remember, it has an additional connector inside.....
> what could be a bottleneck.
> why did the 14.5ah battery see little use ?


I bought the betty 14 with bottle battery real cheap as a left over but I already had a open light system 8.7 ma battery that ran the betty with plenty of time. I rarely used the 14 bottle battery since the 8.7 is so light.

JMC


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

The new Betty R can be pre-ordered in the Lupine shop now. First delivery is scheduled up from Oct. 8: Betty R

Also the manual of the Betty R is available now (English in the second half): http://www.lupine.de/web/content/en/manuals/2012/BettyR 3600 Lumen.pdf

regards


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## JMCCRNA (Dec 2, 2005)

Do you guys think the last generation wilma lenses/emitters will work in the current more powerful model? They are still using the same LED's as far as I can tell. They only offer a 26* right now, I like my 22* helmet a lot. 

Gretna has the wilma and piko models in stock now BTW.

Joe


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Happy day.... And broke day.. Just ordered the following:

Piko x Duo (900 lumens) with helmet mount and speedsleev
Piko TL Minimax (900 lumens) with bike mount
Betty TL (2600 lumens) with extra 2.5 battery to create TL-s and bike mount

Hopefully I made all the right decisions. Been a long time coming on this order. Now will just wait for the final piece to become available... Betty R. Would like for there to be a Wilma R but we will probably have to wait till next year for that one. 

Also picked up 2 Serfas TL-60 tail lights last night. 

Did I mention I am now broke??? I could have gotten a sh*t ton of other lights... Too late for 2nd thoughts I guess. 

Thanks guys.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

That's some purchase cue003!!!! An official Gretna VIP now. I too am waiting for the Betty R and will pull the trigger as soon as possible.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

JohnJ80 said:


> Yeah. Me too. I don' think they know because I don't think Lupine is telling them. The problem is that it's rapidly getting colder here so I have about another month to 6 weeks of night riding before we start to look at below freezing temps. I don't ride once the ground freezes just because there can be frozen ice/frost on the roads. I hate riding with studded tires on top of it all. So, I hang it up then.
> 
> 6 weeks to use my 2400 lumen wilma.....
> 
> J.


Fat tires??


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Nothing's impossible said:


> Fat tires??


Sure but it's where I draw the line and I've already got a garage full of bikes. Not to say I'm not tempted....

J.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

JohnJ80 said:


> Sure but it's where I draw the line and I've already got a garage full of bikes. Not to say I'm not tempted....
> 
> J.


For me, the fat tires are far more useful than a 3600 lumens betty on a night ride!

I rode with the 1500 lumens wilma and a piko previous year, and I couldn't see any more depth on the higher settings, small bumps were still invisible and just launch you unexpected and pretty hard, and for bigger bumps and drops it is impossible to estimate the approriate approach speed. 
roots, bumps,... that are a litle covered behind grass are completely invisible behind the bright shining lit wet grass,....
I cannot imagine that more light would make a difference, on the contrary, in a lot of occasions I saw more with the lights dimmed.

With the sandman on appropriate tires, non of this lack of vison matters, as long as you steer away from trees and big rocks you're fine
At night, with 2 old switchback lights I have ridden stuff that I wouldn't have ridden in daylight But it was only as I rode it that I realised how hard it was

Mind, this switchback combo did limit me from riding full speed with my old fully, i need something like 560 lumens bar and 300 lumens helmet light (lupine lumens, not chinese imaginary lumens) to optimise my vision at night.

And, fat tires do work pretty well in snow, no need to ride on the icy road during winter, continue riding your prefered trails, even at nighttime!:thumbsup:


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Then I suggest that you spend your money on a fat tire bike and not on new lights. You'll be happier.

Here? I prefer to not ride when the temp is subzero fahrenheit. That's the season where I spend my time skiing.

J.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

O, I have a fat bike, but I still use some light for mountainbiking, and the problem is that I need more light everytime people around me upgrade their light!

I love skiing to, but i need a long cartrip to get into a ski resort, so I ski only a week or few weeks a year!


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Just a sidenote. Lupine has many hardcore aficionados, often buying the new stuff as soon it is available, regardless it they own alredy several lupine pieces and no matter if the gear which was up to date just yesterday did a perfect job, and also regardless if the gear was barely used and as good as new.

As interesting side effect, in such events you can usually see an accumulation of people desperately trying to sell off their old stuff. 

An occasion for people not aiming at the best, but just on the second best available. 
See the buy/sell part of the lupine forum (german) if you are interested: • Forum anzeigen - Verkaufe/ Suche

regards


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Pretty much any LED light depreciates quickly these days. I think I pretty much have all my old ones. I give them to my kids for their university bikes - things like that.

They way I look at it is that I really like to ride my bike. Without having good lights it's not possible to do so in high northern latitudes much past the middle to end of September without them. So, it's kind of like the price of admission. I sort of look at the cost of light escalation as an alternative to a health club membership or something along those lines.

Now, though, I'm happy to say that I think that now that the lumen wars are ending, the upgrades will probably slow way down.

J.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

john, I recently read the thread where you said that the wilma with 1500 lumens you just bought was more light than you needed.at that time, the betty with 2600 lumens was plain crazy. 

And now, maybe 2 years later, you ride with the new wilma, with 200 lumens less than the back than plain crazy betty, and you already open the door open saying a bit more spread and a bit more throw would be welcome,...

The lumens war already ended years ago for those who need enough light for mountainbiking, but there is a big market left with people just wanting more!


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Complete Betty R datasheet: Lupine Lighting Systems - Betty R *12*
Same for Wilma 28W: Lupine Lighting Systems - Bike- and Helmetlight Wilma 12
And for Piko 13W: Lupine Lighting Systems - Bike- and Helmetlight Piko 6
and more see the new homepage: Lupine Lighting Systems - Produkte

New beamshot comparison with lumen/runtime for all dim levels, for all new Lupine products (Select type, then model, then dim level): Lupine Lighting Systems - Dimmlevels

regards


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

Hey guys please give us a comparison of the new piko 900 vs the old Wilma.
I sold my Wilma with 1000 lumens, I loved it but needed some
Cash and I'm good with the old Betty and would like the new piko for helmet


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

CHnuschti said:


> Complete Betty R datasheet: Lupine Lighting Systems - Betty R *12*
> Same for Wilma 28W: Lupine Lighting Systems - Bike- and Helmetlight Wilma 12
> And for Piko 13W: Lupine Lighting Systems - Bike- and Helmetlight Piko 6
> and more see the new homepage: Lupine Lighting Systems - Produkte
> ...


OK, someone hakked the website and the beamshots show that it 's not worth buying anything more expensive than a piko? 

From 7 watt on you have enough throw to see there is something far in the distance, at 13 watt it is a bit clearer, but even at 40 watt you can't see what it is.:skep:

And worse, over 13 watt you get a hotspot in the centre of the image, washing out the details close buy 
Such a hotspot will make the eye adjust to high light settings, the few things visible over 13 wat, the few trees far away at the extreme left side of the pic for instance, might become hardly visible as well.

To the people in germany: With a dark area in the foreground, the beamshots of the betty and wilma might be more convincing!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Well, that's all true if your aim is perfection in beam shots. 

I can assure you that there is no blinding hot spot on my Wilma 2400 at full power. It lights up the road nicely in front of me and is really a great light to ride with.

Beamshots over about 600 lumens are pretty much not representative of the actual way the light looks to your eye. It has to do with the fact that your eye sees many times more gradations of light than can be portrayed by a digital camera.

J.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

john, 
Forget about how much light is sensible for mountainbiking for a while,
would you, based on those beamshots, decide to spend €1000 on a betty, or € 260 on a piko?

This "standard" settings for beamshots originates from the time lupine wanted to show off with the fact they were able to make a cone,the full 40 meters away, visible to allow full speed mountainbiking.

I was doubting about taking a second piko or a wilma ( to be safe for the future if the whole world starts riding 5000 lumens) I tested the new wilma 2400, yet I ordered myself a second piko.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm savvy enough on beamshots to realize that they are largely worthless. Therefore I wouldn't buy anything from beamshot over 600 lumens. 

Two pikos makes for a nice, small and effective setup at 1800 lumens and a nice beam pattern in a small package.

Like I've said a number of times, the lumen wars are largely over.

J.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

Most people only have a beamshot to choose a light, but I can imagine that lupine pictured them like that on purpose! 

And, the lumen war is over for me, apparantly almost for you, but a lot of people just want to have more light if it is available!

3 betty R's make 11000 lumens, chinese manufactureres will come up with affordable lightbars over 10 000 lumens,... As long as people keep saying more is better, more will sell, and in the end you' ll need to upgrade as well as 15 000 lumen will make you ride your own shadow!

A piko 6 and a piko 3 is the perfect setup for me, with 500 on the bar and 300 on the helmet I can ride at full speed for a long time with a low weight penalty, and worst case i can double the output!


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Here a somewhat more elaborate test of the new Betty R, with some diagrams, measurements, pics (in german, however):
Lupine Betty R 12 mit Funkfernbedienung // Test / Messungen / Bilder //

regards


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## traxsonic (Jan 4, 2012)

Very interesting test, thanks for sharing !


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## whwv (Nov 2, 2012)

Gretna put the new Betty R on their website this morning. Ordered it, and it's already shipped. This is the first time I've ever looked forward to the time change!


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Awe man,,,, looks like i have to wait two more weeks as i'm ordering the Betty R lamp head to go with the Betty R 12 kit. But the lamp head only wont be available untill then. Whwv, you will have to give us an update when yours arrives. I would have prefered to keep a (Wilma R) on the lid, but it doesn't exist yet and as i want to control both my bar and helmet lights with just the one remote my only choice right now are the two Betty R's,,, poor me:ihih:


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

indebt, 

Do you see a potential issue if you want to dim your head light different to what you want to dim the bar light when controlling with one remote (assuming either 2 Betty R's or even Betty R and whenever they decide to release the Wilma R)??

Trying to think through how that would work with one single switch and having different settings on each light.

The Betty R12 will be a sweet setup with long runtime on battery charge. That is a pretty super expensive setup for helmet and bar to both be Betty R's. Enjoy it and post your thoughts.

I am curious to see if the software has changed any that will allow you to turn off the light without it flashing to the next level. (example. you are using extra low mode .3W and you go to turn off the light and the next level you had programmed was 40W... it shouldn't flash that much light as you hold the switch to turn it off.) I hope that makes sense. Maybe there is a sensible way around this. not so much a big deal when you are already on full power and the light flashes lower output before turning off.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Good point cue003. Not sure if that is resolved as i wouldn't want to blast eighty watts at someone in a large group by mistake, hope so. I will have two remotes to use if i decide to go that wrought but i always found myself using the same output levels with my existing set up, when i went to low on my bars i did the same with my helmet light and so on. It was easy and kept run times on my battery's close. Looks like there will be infinite options though, and will take a bit of time to figure everything out. Looks like it will be close to a month before i can play by the time it gets to Squamish BC and that is going to be tough. I will post my thoughts as soon as i can but i'm sure there will be a few from some others by then. Cheers!!!


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

The lupine boss gave some details:
Remote battery is a CR 2016. If you switch the backlight on, it will be activated for 20 minutes, timer restarts every time you use the remote. Remote led will get red when the battery is (nearly) empty.
• Thema anzeigen - Betty R

The remote works independently respectively coded. So you can have 2 remotes and 2 lamps and they will not interfere with your multiple lamps or those of your riding friends.
But you can also pair ONE remote with several lamps, or up to 3 remotes to ONE lamp:
Manual page 38: http://www.lupine.de/web/content/de/anleitungen/2012/BettyR 3600 Lumen.pdf
But as far as I can gather, there is no possibility to control 2 lamps with one remote independently from each other.

Here you can also find another beamshot comparison, namely between new Betty R (40W) and predecessor Betty (28W, or was it 26W?), unfortunately there are no other comparison beamshots available for this elsewhere ATM:
Outdoor-Beamshots: Lupine Betty R, Piko TL MiniMax, Wilma, Fenix TK70, EYE-30 uvm.
EDIT: comparison also between Piko TL 550/750/900 lumen, which in fact compare the Piko TLs of the 1st, 2nd and actual generation.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Another characteristic not described officially (I think) is that the Betty R run in all modes except the (lowest possible) 0.3W mode will light only with the 6 outer leds. The 0.3W mode will light with the inner one led alone.
• Thema anzeigen - Bei der Betty leuchten 6 LED oder 1 LED

regards


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## whwv (Nov 2, 2012)

So far, I'm extremely pleased with Gretna as the the light arrived today and everything looks perfect. This is my first Lupine light, and I'm thrilled to see the build quality is what I'd expect for a $1000+ light. I'll charge tonight, and plan to test it tomorrow night on a local shop night ride.

I quickly flipped through the manual, and some parts are pretty funny as I'd bet it was written in German and then translated to English.


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## whwv (Nov 2, 2012)

cue003 said:


> indebt,
> I am curious to see if the software has changed any that will allow you to turn off the light without it flashing to the next level. (example. you are using extra low mode .3W and you go to turn off the light and the next level you had programmed was 40W... it shouldn't flash that much light as you hold the switch to turn it off.) I hope that makes sense. Maybe there is a sensible way around this. not so much a big deal when you are already on full power and the light flashes lower output before turning off.


Nope. Just tested it in the garage and it does move to the next setting when you are turning it off. On the default setting, it's not that noticeable if you're on preset 1 (22W to 40W), but it's like flashing the headlights if you're on preset 3 (.3W to 22W). Obviously not an issue on preset 2 (40W to .3W).

Honestly, not an issue for me at this time as I can't see why I'd be running at .3W. I didn't buy this light to operate in stealth mode....


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## RBrady (Jan 20, 2009)

Soooo, how's the Betty R?


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## whwv (Nov 2, 2012)

RBrady said:


> Soooo, how's the Betty R?


Unreal.

I'll try to post a decent write up this weekend, but based on the ride tonight I'm thrilled with the results. I was running the light at 22W as 40W seemed unnecessary. I also take back my comment about why would anyone run the light at .3W as apparently this is an appropriate setting for riding on a bike path through a neighborhood....


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

It is a 2 watt/ 250 lumen setting as far as I understood?
A few years ago that was considered plenty for offroading ;-)


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## RBrady (Jan 20, 2009)

I have two of the 1800 lumen Betty's I run on high 2-3 times a week mornings before work. Just wondering if its worth upgrading. I'm a believer in more is always better!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Nothing's impossible said:


> john, I recently read the thread where you said that the wilma with 1500 lumens you just bought was more light than you needed.at that time, the betty with 2600 lumens was plain crazy.
> 
> And now, maybe 2 years later, you ride with the new wilma, with 200 lumens less than the back than plain crazy betty, and you already open the door open saying a bit more spread and a bit more throw would be welcome,...
> 
> The lumens war already ended years ago for those who need enough light for mountainbiking, but there is a big market left with people just wanting more!


I lied. More is definitely better.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

whwv said:


> Unreal.
> 
> I'll try to post a decent write up this weekend, but based on the ride tonight I'm thrilled with the results. I was running the light at 22W as 40W seemed unnecessary. I also take back my comment about why would anyone run the light at .3W as apparently this is an appropriate setting for riding on a bike path through a neighborhood....


 Have you had a chance to put your Betty R through it's paces yet??? Please share,,, i need the fix while i'm waiting to order mine.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

Here some images using 2 lupine piko's, more then enough for me!


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

Betty 1850 Vs Wilma 2400????
I'm wondering how is the width of the beam. The 1850 Betty is 22 degrees I believe? and the Wilma is 26 degrees
just wondering if you have seen both and have any comments

Thanks


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

I have a 1,750 lumen Betty 22 degrees which I love. I also wondered too how the new Wilma would compare to my light just out of curiosity. I have no plans to buy another light. The new Wilma should have a bit wider beam, but I wonder how the throw would compare. I wouldn't sacrifice throw for more flood however if the Wilma could match the throw of my light then I would be impressed with it.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

I bit the hook and order a Wilma... when it arrives I will post a comparison with my current betty (1850 lm) with some pictures and a review ;-)
Should be here friday!!! what a hooker LOL


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## mikeyonthemadone (Jul 4, 2009)

You are going to giggle yourself through the night, lighting the trail/road for your buddies! It is an awesome light!


Mikey


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

I was doing so with the old Betty /Wilma combo ;-) this would be like taking steroids LOL!


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## Werks (Nov 19, 2012)

Can't go wrong with any of the Lupine stuff.
Darryl


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

*Maiden Voyage, Two Betty R's.*

Well i just got back from a solo night ride with my Betty R's. Wow!!! is all i can say. First thing that i'm more impressed with than i thought i would be is the delivery of all those lumens. Way more smooth than was expecting, so much so that all the extra lumens over my 1850 Betty/1100 Wilma didn't translate into the eye strain one would think. In fact with the warmer tint and big 26degree spread i would go as far as to say it felt easier on my old eyes.
The bar mount is amaising. I hit some fast rocky sections and technical sections with absolutely no movement or light chatter what so ever. Despite the heavier lamp head the Betty R felt better on my lid with the lower profile mount than my Wilma. This was a pleasant surprise.
The remote feature is the main reason i took the Betty R's over two Wilma's as i wanted to run both lamp heads off of one remote. Seemed to work great most of the time, how ever i did have some glitches as at times one or the other lamp heads would not respond to the remote. Not sure if my GPS computer or heart rate monitor may have contributed to that. Or it could just be getting the feel of the switch with gloves on. I will keep an eye on that though. 
Battery life was also better than expected. I used 1800lumens for aprox eighty minutes of climbing and used 7200lumens most of the decent (20 minutes), 3200lumens (10 minutes) and only burned 3.7Ah of my 11.2Ah battery's.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

indebt said:


> Well i just got back from a solo night ride with my Betty R's. Wow!!! is all i can say. First thing that i'm more impressed with than i thought i would be is the delivery of all those lumens. Way more smooth than was expecting, so much so that all the extra lumens over my 1850 Betty/1100 Wilma didn't translate into the eye strain one would think. In fact with the warmer tint and big 26degree spread i would go as far as to say it felt easier on my old eyes.
> The bar mount is amaising. I hit some fast rocky sections and technical sections with absolutely no movement or light chatter what so ever. Despite the heavier lamp head the Betty R felt better on my lid with the lower profile mount than my Wilma. This was a pleasant surprise.
> The remote feature is the main reason i took the Betty R's over two Wilma's as i wanted to run both lamp heads off of one remote. Seemed to work great most of the time, how ever i did have some glitches as at times one or the other lamp heads would not respond to the remote. Not sure if my GPS computer or heart rate monitor may have contributed to that. Or it could just be getting the feel of the switch with gloves on. I will keep an eye on that though.
> Battery life was also better than expected. I used 1800lumens for aprox eighty minutes of climbing and used 7200lumens most of the decent (20 minutes), 3200lumens (10 minutes) and only burned 3.7Ah of my 11.2Ah battery's.


Nice! killer setup:thumbsup:
What is your thought in regards to the beam pattern compared to the Betty 1850? is it as wide close to the front wheel? I have the new Wilma and the beam is a huge circle with no discernible hot spot.
You mention the new Betty's tint is warmer that the 1850? When using the old Betty 1850 and new Wilma (even though both are pretty neutral an easy on the eyes) I see the old Betty warmer (yellow comparatively speaking), and the new one colder in the spectrum (blueish comparatively speaking)?
Agree with your comment about battery life, usefulness of lumens and that is very "easy" on the eyes from the Wilma's perspective
Cheers!
Cheers


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I cant make an honest comparison as i had my Betty R tilted up a bit more than my old Betty to the point that there wasnt a lot of light right at my front wheel. More about two feet out from the tire where it spread out much wider and smoother the the old Betty. Cant say enough how smooth the spread of light is.

Thats funny how we are perceiving the coulor rendition differently. Coulor blindness does run in my family.LOL.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

Lol cool thanks!
Ps: I'm sure you are "indebt" after that purchase hahaha


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

double post.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

It's a sickness wanting nice things.Cheers!!!:thumbsup:


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

The 2013 Lupine reviews are done:

http://reviews.mtbr.com/2013-bike-lights-shootout

The 2013 Wilma is testing brighter than the 2012 Betty!!

fc


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanx Francois!!


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

sweet!


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## moonraker (Jan 22, 2004)

*Lupine gang*

Rockin' the Lupine's with Gretna Bikes!


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

moonraker said:


> Rockin' the Lupine's with Gretna Bikes!


Nice! That looks like a traffic jam at the highway lol


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## RBrady (Jan 20, 2009)

Badass!! Lupine Rocks!


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

moonraker said:


> Rockin' the Lupine's with Gretna Bikes!


 Close encounters of the third kind flashback. I'm loving my Betty-R's


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## quiggs1974 (Nov 22, 2007)

Just received my Betty R earlier in the week and matched up with the Betty on the bars is a sweet combo. My only complaint is for a light that will set you back $1000 you would think Lupine would at least include the peppi handlebar mount for the remote and light head handlebar mount! Rather than make you fork out another $30-70 for each or the pair! 

Wishing the Betty (2600lm) came in a wider than the 26º angle beam spread for a greater light spread for a light that will be a dedicated handlebar light.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Where did you order your Betty-R from? Both of mine came with the Peppi and Bar mount. I ordered through Gretna Bikes.


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## quiggs1974 (Nov 22, 2007)

I live in Australia and brought through the Australian distributor, Virtuascape.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I agree with you that it is a bit redicules that a $1000 light that comes with a remote wouldn't include the Peppi to hold that remote. I think thats why Gretna made the change at their location as they probably felt the same way. On their website they in their description describe the Peppi and Bar mount as included. Should be that way as default. Anyway, just got home from work and the rain looks like it has finally washed enough snow away to go for a night ride, so Cheers, and enjoy your new light.!!!.


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