# 300g Rim From Alex?



## JaLove (Dec 24, 2006)

Has anyone seen or used these 300g scandium Alex rims?

I found them on Ebay here. No, I'm not selling them! Just curious.

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Alex-Rim-Sc...ryZ58089QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

No spoke eyelets, so you'd have to be careful with spoke tension. They're 1mm wider than a Mavic 717 and 100gms lighter.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

Any one know more info? The Alex website doesn't even list the XCR pro rims, just the XCR 100, which is a 400gram rim.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Merida appears to think they're OK


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## jmartpr (Jun 16, 2008)

Very interesting rim....could be a good option for those (like me) that live in the USA and can't purchase the NoTubes ZTR Race 7000 rims alone. These look a couple of grams shy from the NoTubes ZTR and way cheaper. Now the question is...can they be run tubeless???? If the answer is yes I would give them a try.

Another thing is that maybe they are a little bit stronger than the ZTRs which do have a recommended weight limit for the rider.


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## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

rockyuphill said:


> No spoke eyelets, so you'd have to be careful with spoke tension.


stans doesnt use eyelets either, he says with quality material they arn't needed, in his opinion.


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## jmartpr (Jun 16, 2008)

Got some info from Alex Rims.
They do have a weight limit for the rider: 80 kg


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## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

jmartpr said:


> Got some info from Alex Rims.
> They do have a weight limit for the rider: 80 kg


thats fine for me,i might have to score some for my SS, i wonder if that weight is very acurate?


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## jmartpr (Jun 16, 2008)

Hand/of/Midas said:


> thats fine for me,i might have to score some for my SS, i wonder if that weight is very acurate?


I have purchased items from that seller in the past and he is very honest. I would trust the weight given by his scale.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I wouldn't use them for random rides regardless of rider weight. Looks race day only unless you don't mind paying for damage. Same is true of the NoTubes ZTR Race 7000.

P.S. Not to highjack but are the Race 7000s only available built so that bad builds don't give the rim a reputation for being weak?


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## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

Lelandjt said:


> P.S. Not to highjack but are the Race 7000s only available built so that bad builds don't give the rim a reputation for being weak?


i saw a thread before where a guy from europe bought some seperatly, but we(usa) couldnt.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Yeah, the guy above said that too. I'm wondering why and speculated.


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## Buoyen (Aug 14, 2006)

Is it possible to run these tubeless, like the Notubes rims?


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## jmartpr (Jun 16, 2008)

The ZTR Race and Race 7000 can be purchased from a couple of web stores in Europe...if I remember correctly is like 100 EUR for the Race (previous model) and 150-170 EUR for the RACE 7000...Ouch!!!

As for the Alex being run tubeless the answer I got from Alex Rims is yes with their Eclipse tubeless kit


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*"their" Eclipse??*



jmartpr said:


> As for the Alex being run tubeless the answer I got from Alex Rims is yes with their Eclipse tubeless kit


sounds weird!!

anyway - i should get those rims very soon and will definitely let you know what fits


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## jmartpr (Jun 16, 2008)

nino said:


> sounds weird!!
> 
> anyway - i should get those rims very soon and will definitely let you know what fits


Nino...lets us know your feedback.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

nino said:


> sounds weird!!
> 
> anyway - i should get those rims very soon and will definitely let you know what fits


the ZTR RACE has Bead Socket Technology (BST), which is really a great design feature, it holds a bead better than any UST wheel I have ever seen / used.

another benefit to the RACE rims as well is the width. the width can add about 3mm of volume to some tires compared to being run on my crossmax sl or 717 wheels. the tires i use all run much better on the RACE rims than other rims.

all with just the yellow tape... no silly rim strips.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

kevbikemad said:


> the width can add about 3mm of volume to some tires compared to being run on my crossmax sl or 717 wheels. the tires i use all run much better on the RACE rims than other rims.
> 
> all with just the yellow tape... no silly rim strips.


How do you increase volume from a fixed surface area? Yellow tape is essential a rim strip


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Cheers! said:


> How do you increase volume from a fixed surface area? Yellow tape is essential a rim strip


BST - basically there is a shorter sidewall on the rim, so MORE of the tire sidewall is outside of the rim, increasing volume of the tire. it works. with most rims, there is a few mm of tire sidewall inside the rim, reducing the volume of the tire. the RACE rim is also wider, with an inner cavity of 21.4mm, so tires are very stable at low air pressure.

regarding the yellow tape - the yellow tape seals the wheel, but weighs far less than using a Stans or Eclipse rim strip obviously. i am pointing out it is LIGHTER and just not needed on the RACE rims. the RACE rims are almost impossible to burp as well.

BST explained - copied from NoTubes.com
"...bead socket technology™. It moves the sidewall of the rim down by 2-3mm.
By eliminating the bead hook and lowering the sidewall by 2-3mm we reduce the weight of the rim...
The curve of the rim sidewall is the same shape as the bead of the tire so they fit together like a ball and socket joint. This design will help reduce the strain on the tire bead while creating a tighter seal.
With these short sidewalls the tire should not hit the rim and pinch flat as often as standard rims, either with or without tubes. This design will allow you to run lower pressures and use 4mm more of the tire than ever before. The tire will have larger air volume giving you better traction..."


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## Buoyen (Aug 14, 2006)

Anyone know how wide it is? 18mm?


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## AZ-X (Feb 16, 2004)

kevbikemad said:


> the ZTR RACE has Bead Socket Technology (BST), which is really a great design feature, it holds a bead better than any UST wheel I have ever seen / used.
> 
> another benefit to the RACE rims as well is the width. the width can add about 3mm of volume to some tires compared to being run on my crossmax sl or 717 wheels. the tires i use all run much better on the RACE rims than other rims.
> 
> all with just the yellow tape... no silly rim strips.


But guess what? You still can't buy _RACE _rims appart from a whole wheelset in the US--no matter how much you love them. This is may be a real alternative for people who want to use their own hubs. I'm waiting for Nino's assessment too. Should be interesting...


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## jmartpr (Jun 16, 2008)

AZ-X said:


> But guess what? You still can't buy _RACE _rims appart from a whole wheelset in the US--no matter how much you love them. This is may be a real alternative for people who want to use their own hubs. I'm waiting for Nino's assessment too. Should be interesting...


You could...it's just a question of cost: around $480 for two ZTR Race 7000 32H with shipping from Starbike.com


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## AZ-X (Feb 16, 2004)

jmartpr said:


> You could...it's just a question of cost: around $480 for two ZTR Race 7000 32H with shipping from Starbike.com


LOL! _Exactly..._...:madman:


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## jmartpr (Jun 16, 2008)

AZ-X said:


> LOL! _Exactly..._...:madman:


It could be worst...how about $500 per rim for a DT XR330 that weight 330 gr (usually they weight closer to 340) and still has a rider weight limit. The only thing is that the "cool factor" with the XR330 is very high...Carbon fiber!!!!!

back the the Alex rims...if they can be made to work tubeless without adding too much weight they would be a very nice option to Stan's Ztr Race. You sacrifice 10-15 grams but get a good price plus a slighly higher rider weight limit. The only thing missing is Nino's review to see how well they stand up to MTB XC use.


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

Buoyen said:


> Anyone know how wide it is? 18mm?


I sent them an email asking what the ERD was, they're reply gave me the ETRTO & width...559x18, so 18mm's wide is correct. If anyone does get the ERD of these rims please let me know.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*soon*



jmartpr said:


> The only thing missing is Nino's review to see how well they stand up to MTB XC use.


as mentioned these should already be on the way...i am planning to do affordable wheelsets in the 1200-1250g range. i'm not looking for superlight as i am riding pretty agressive.No Extralite or Tune hubs...

at the moment i don't care too much about "tubeless" since i will be using some prototype inner tubes that are lighter,don't pinchflat(!),allow tire changes as usual and roll superfast. pretty much the do-it-all solution for us bikers


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## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

nino said:


> as mentioned these should already be on the way...i am planning to do affordable wheelsets in the 1200-1250g range. i'm not looking for superlight as i am riding pretty agressive.No Extralite or Tune hubs...
> 
> at the moment i don't care too much about "tubeless" since i will be using some prototype inner tubes that are lighter,don't pinchflat(!),allow tire changes as usual and roll superfast. pretty much the do-it-all solution for us bikers


i want more info on these tubes, as would anyone from how you describe them. im guessing some kind of cloth instead of rubber so it doesnt pinch? Silk like some of the high-end tubular tires? naw that would cost too much, but wait this is Nino im talking too............time will tell.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*be patient!*



Hand/of/Midas said:


> ........time will tell.


sorry - no more info yet but it should have BIG impact on the biking scene !


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## ratmac (Jun 13, 2008)

nino said:


> as mentioned these should already be on the way...i am planning to do affordable wheelsets in the 1200-1250g range. i'm not looking for superlight as i am riding pretty agressive.No Extralite or Tune hubs...
> 
> at the moment i don't care too much about "tubeless" since i will be using some prototype inner tubes that are lighter,don't pinchflat(!),allow tire changes as usual and roll superfast. pretty much the do-it-all solution for us bikers


nino have you got them yet?

what are your impressions?

whats a 1250g affordable whhelset?


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## Atmos (Oct 20, 2006)

Wow, if things went smoothly, i believe most of us here will get a pair? :thumbsup:


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I think the Bead Socket design and ease of tubeless use will keep me on NoTubes rims. A slight rim weight reduction isn't worth more tire changing hassle or extra weight from rim strips for me.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

Lelandjt said:


> I think the Bead Socket design and ease of tubeless use will keep me on NoTubes rims. A slight rim weight reduction isn't worth more tire changing hassle or extra weight from rim strips for me.


I thought you still had to run the "Stan's Yellow Tape" on Notube's rims. Isn't the Yellow tape the same thing as a rimstrip?


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## icedmind (May 8, 2008)

they are now on the alexrim website now
XCR pro disc but it didnt mention anything abt the weight limit


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

Cheers! said:


> I thought you still had to run the "Stan's Yellow Tape" on Notube's rims. Isn't the Yellow tape the same thing as a rimstrip?


1. The Stan's bead hook, as the poster stated, is much easier to use. For standard (non-UST) tires it makes them easier to mount/seal/inflate, plus it's more resistant to the tire bead separating from the bead hook unexpectedly. It's nothing to do with the tape or rim strip, but instead is a benefit of the BST bead hook.

2. Yellow tape is much lighter than a rubber rim strip.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Yeah, I wasn't clear, I ment no heavy RUBBER rim strip which I think is required fot the Alex rims.
I was responding to the guy who said we'd all be getting the Alexs by saying that for tubeless use the slight extra weight of an Olympic or 355 is worth it.
Like everyone else I'm pretty curious about Nino's "mystery tubes".


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Lelandjt said:


> Like everyone else I'm pretty curious about Nino's "mystery tubes".


tubes puncture. he is hinting at lighter than tubeless conversion and no pinch flats.

tubeless and or converting still offers low pressure (traction/comfort) and some actual puncture repair.

will be interesting, if it is truly lighter than just sealant and a valve and can be run at 20 psi without worry... but i am guessing it will still puncture like any other tube (specially if it is super light weight).


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## SlackBoy (Mar 7, 2008)

AZ-X said:


> But guess what? You still can't buy _RACE _rims appart from a whole wheelset in the US--no matter how much you love them. This is may be a real alternative for people who want to use their own hubs. I'm waiting for Nino's assessment too. Should be interesting...


Sucks to be yous guys then
.Even down in lil ole New Zealand we can get em, bult up a set last week for a customer. Sinfully light


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

kevbikemad said:


> tubes puncture. he is hinting at lighter than tubeless conversion and no pinch flats.
> 
> tubeless and or converting still offers low pressure (traction/comfort) and some actual puncture repair.
> 
> will be interesting, if it is truly lighter than just sealant and a valve and can be run at 20 psi without worry... but i am guessing it will still puncture like any other tube (specially if it is super light weight).


no, i am hinting a lightweight inner tube at about half the weight of others with about 20 times higher resistance to cuts. not bad, right

so far none of us test-riders got a flat. not even when riding on purpose over sidewalks with underinflated tires. the rims are toast...the tubes survived. how about that?


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## ratmac (Jun 13, 2008)

that sounds good now if you could spill the beans...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Lelandjt said:


> Yeah, I wasn't clear, I ment no heavy RUBBER rim strip which I think is required fot the Alex rims.
> I was responding to the guy who said we'd all be getting the Alexs by saying that for tubeless use the slight extra weight of an Olympic or 355 is worth it.
> Like everyone else I'm pretty curious about Nino's "mystery tubes".


Those Eclipse rimstrips are NOT heavy.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

nino said:


> no, i am hinting a lightweight inner tube at about half the weight of others with about 20 times higher resistance to cuts. not bad, right
> 
> so far none of us test-riders got a flat. not even when riding on purpose over sidewalks with underinflated tires. the rims are toast...the tubes survived. how about that?


Sounds cool. Even though I still think tubeless UST style tires if they can really get them lighter in the future. MTB and Road.

But I would like to see these tubes as well. Maybe a road version? Unless they are as complaint as latex tubes, tubeless will be a better option.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Lelandjt said:


> Yeah, I wasn't clear, I ment no heavy RUBBER rim strip which I think is required fot the Alex rims.
> I was responding to the guy who said we'd all be getting the Alexs by saying that for tubeless use the slight extra weight of an Olympic or 355 is worth it.
> Like everyone else I'm pretty curious about Nino's "mystery tubes".


Also, almost any XC rim can use stan's yellow tape.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

nino said:


> no, i am hinting a lightweight inner tube at about half the weight of others with about 20 times higher resistance to cuts. not bad, right
> 
> so far none of us test-riders got a flat. not even when riding on purpose over sidewalks with underinflated tires. the rims are toast...the tubes survived. how about that?


hey, that's great. if it is all true - fantastic. just need to see it to believe it I guess.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

DIRT BOY said:


> Also, almost any XC rim can use stan's yellow tape.


Oh, I was under the impression that NoTubes "bead socket" rims seal better against the bead of the tire and that normal rims need a rubber strip against the tire. Have you found that the Yellow Tape works on most rims or just a few brands?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*dangerous!*



Lelandjt said:


> Oh, I was under the impression that NoTubes "bead socket" rims seal better against the bead of the tire and that normal rims need a rubber strip against the tire. Have you found that the Yellow Tape works on most rims or just a few brands?


sorry - but Dirt Boy is wrong.
you sure could use just yellowtape on any rim BUT as you already mentioned the tires won't sit as thight on the rims as needed and burping or even worse tires blowing completely off is most likely to happen. no good!

on Stans rims the yellow tape is fine.on regular rims use any sort of tubelesskit with rubber rimstrip !


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

nino said:


> sorry - but Dirt Boy is wrong.
> you sure could use just yellowtape on any rim BUT as you already mentioned the tires won't sit as thight on the rims as needed and burping or even worse tires blowing completely off is most likely to happen. no good!
> 
> on Stans rims the yellow tape is fine.on regular rims use any sort of tubelesskit with rubber rimstrip !


Sorry Nino, but not every rim. Same thing with some rim strips, the cavity will no longer be deep enough to REALLY hold those tires on. Mavics seems fine with a layer of tape. Yes, ZTR rims are better with tape. I also find UST rims to be some of the best.

DT/Eclipse rim strips & UST rims can burp as well as Stan's rims trips and ZTR rims.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*ahem...*



DIRT BOY said:


> Sorry Nino, but not every rim. Same thing with some rim strips, the cavity will no longer be deep enough to REALLY hold those tires on. Mavics seems fine with a layer of tape. Yes, ZTR rims are better with tape. I also find UST rims to be some of the best.
> 
> DT/Eclipse rim strips & UST rims can burp as well as Stan's rims trips and ZTR rims.


i can only speak for Eclipse/DT and there is no man with more insight here: a rimstrip will definitely help in making a much thighter fit on regular rims. rubber rimstrips like Eclipse/DT have also a inner lip which grips the tire and prevents it from moving inwards into the rimbead.

by using just a tape the tires will eventually move around on the rims much earlier. only Stans rims have a lower rimhook which allow just the tape-method. UST-rims have that inner lip as well. so those don't need a rubber rimtsrip nor a yellow-tape.

shown below:
Eclipse/DT rimstrip with that mentioned inner lip


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

nino said:


> i can only speak for Eclipse/DT and there is no man with more insight here: a rimstrip will definitely help in making a much thighter fit on regular rims. rubber rimstrips like Eclipse/DT have also a inner lip which grips the tire and prevents it from moving inwards into the rimbead.
> 
> by using just a tape the tires will eventually move around on the rims much earlier. only Stans rims have a lower rimhook which allow just the tape-method. UST-rims have that inner lip as well. so those don't need a rubber rimtsrip nor a yellow-tape.
> 
> ...


A ust rim still needs a strip, as the shelf isnt high enough. this is discussed all the time
on notubes site. nino will deny it does but ask no tubes mike and he will tell you that
using a standard tire on a ust rim is just asking for burps. stans rim is designed for
yellow tape only. all others need a strip. unless a ust/tr tire is used.


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## Stalk (May 24, 2005)

peabody said:


> A ust rim still needs a strip, as the shelf isnt high enough. this is discussed all the time
> on notubes site. nino will deny it does but ask no tubes mike and he will tell you that
> using a standard tire on a ust rim is just asking for burps. stans rim is designed for
> yellow tape only. all others need a strip. unless a ust/tr tire is used.


And that's probably why I can run regular SB8 on UST rim all summer with no issues and no no any strips/tapes. 

The only thing you would have to watch is pressure. I'm running around 30PSI on 2.35 tire, below that pressure tire starts folding on the hard impacts so yes, there are chances of burping. Mind you, SB8s are one of the hardest to run with Stans on any rim and very thin.

Having 2 bikes with UST rims and one with ZTR/tape I would say it's the same, except it harder to get tire on UST rim, but it's easier to inflate.

Next experiment would be "regular" XC rims with tape. (Sun RPM Lite). BTW NoTubes sell presta valve for regular rims to use with tape, so they support this configuration. :thumbsup:


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*hmmm...*



peabody said:


> A ust rim still needs a strip, as the shelf isnt high enough. this is discussed all the time
> on notubes site. nino will deny it does but ask no tubes mike and he will tell you that
> using a standard tire on a ust rim is just asking for burps. stans rim is designed for
> yellow tape only. all others need a strip. unless a ust/tr tire is used.


i've been using regular tires on my Crossmax (UST) wheels fo years.

as a manufacturer of a specific rim i would also suggest not to ride such a combo....otherwise you hurt your sales, right? 

maybe you take a closer look at the UST rimbead vs a rimbead of a standard rim...i think we don't need to continue to discuss this. it's pretty obvious, right?

now: where do you want to put a rubber rimstrip???

end of the story-good night


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I've also been impressed with the ease of inflation and pressure holding of my Mavic UST/SB8 combo. It only has a half scoop of Stan's in it and no rim strip. However, NoTube's 355s are lighter and wider so I'm switching to those this winter. I run 35psi and still see marks on the rim hooks from contact with the ground so I can't imagine running less pressure. Even if you don't get pinch flats aren't you worried about destroying your rim and tire?


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> ... UST rims can burp as well as Stan's rims trips and ZTR rims.


i don't think you could burp a tire on the ZTR RACE rims... you would have to probably blow the tire right off. the tire fits so nice and tight, it can be hard to pop the tire bead off the rim even with no air pressure. other tires and rim combos i have tried (UST and standard with rim strips) the tires pop off at low pressure - NOT the RACE rims. they hold better than ANY other rim I have seen.

from my experience...
you can use some standard tires on some standard wheels using just stan's yellow tape - but is very difficult to get it to inflate and burps VERY easily. NOT recommended. using a rim strip is much better.

you can use standard tires on UST with no rim strip, but again, burping can be an issue. also can be difficult to inflat. i have used a stans olympic strip inside a Mavic Crossmax rim and it worked MUCH better. There was room and it worked.


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## strader (Jun 14, 2006)

kevbikemad said:


> i don't think you could burp a tire on the ZTR RACE rims...


I burped a 2.25 Nobby Nic on my Stan's race rim for the first time last week. Coming down a right turn off camber downhill that's covered in big roots. I'm not sure what exactly happened but I think I was trying to turn in a spot where I should have been going straight, the tire slipped on a root, and burbed from the lateral force when it hooked up again on the dirt. I went down and the tire lost about 2 psi. FWIW I've fallen in the same place 3 other times this year with different tires and wheels, so I'm not blaming the wheels, tires, or tubeless setup at all.
I've put about 30 miles a week on this setup since the beginning of August, and this is the first time it's lost air.


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## jmartpr (Jun 16, 2008)

strader said:


> Coming down a right turn off camber downhill that's covered in big roots. I'm not sure what exactly happened but I think I was trying to turn in a spot where I should have been going straight, the tire slipped on a root, and burbed from the lateral force when it hooked up again on the dirt.


Are you sure you are using the correct tool for the job? IMHO A fast downhill with big roots doesn't sound like the kind of terrain you would want to use a ZTR Race wheel. Rider weight and riding style also has a big impact.


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## strader (Jun 14, 2006)

I never said I was going fast.  The trail is not any more technical than what the local XC races go over. I weigh 148lbs so I'm well under the suggested rider weight limit. As far as riding "style", well, that could play a factor.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

peabody said:


> A ust rim still needs a strip, as the shelf isnt high enough. this is discussed all the time
> on notubes site. nino will deny it does but ask no tubes mike and he will tell you that
> using a standard tire on a ust rim is just asking for burps. stans rim is designed for
> yellow tape only. all others need a strip. unless a ust/tr tire is used.


Then Mike is an idiot! Yes, if run rum insane low pressures you will burp a regular tire on a UST rim. Use decent low pressure and you will be fine.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

kevbikemad said:


> i don't think you could burp a tire on the ZTR RACE rims... you would have to probably blow the tire right off. the tire fits so nice and tight, it can be hard to pop the tire bead off the rim even with no air pressure.


Tell that to several guys I know and the set I tested.


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## Mike B. (Feb 21, 2004)

Maybe I should take offense to that? 

I know I nor any of the teams we work with that run UST rims can ran "low" pressure without excessive burping. Low for me on a 26x2.0 tire is 20 psi and I'm 175lbs. Low on my 29er is 16 psi. Take the Luna Chix for example, all running Maxxis tires on Crossmax SLRs with Olympic rim strips. Not big girls by any stretch and not able to run the pressures they want to run without adding the strips.

I would never recommend the use of a UST rim and a standard tire without the rim strip. Just as yellow tape and a valve is a dangerous setup on any other rim due to sidewall heights and shapes. If you can run it and feel comfortable, go for it but I can not and I would never recommend a customer try it either. nino and others might imply that I'm trying to sell rims by making such statements but I'm first and foremost a mountain biker like any of the rest of you and I'd rather make sure someone has a fun and safe ride than risk a blowout for 15 grams. 

Don't believe me, try setting up some real testing of your own. I guarantee I could burp any standard tire on a UST rim when used without a strip. Spend some time measuring sidewall heights, actual bead seat diameters, tire bead sizes and shapes, tire bead & rim interfaces, etc and the picture becomes very clear.


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## Hardtailforever (Feb 11, 2004)

On ZTR rims, the bead seat is lower, so you can run lower pressures and still have lower risk of mashing your rims because there is more tire protecting it.


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## Stalk (May 24, 2005)

Mike, 

what specific tires you are running at those low pressures? Sidewall contruction/compound?


I don't think I would ever try 2.0 tire, but going to run 2.2 Conti soon on XC HT. However, with 2.3 tires (Kenda, Speshi, Maxxis) I tried, anything lower 25 cause too much wobble on the corners washing out any traction benefit if there was gained any. With all this I burped tire only once (regular SB8 on UST rim) landing hard sideways from the hip jump. So it's not an issue of burping, but rather stability at speed.

The only tires were stable at low-low pressure are Maxxis DH series (Minions, High Rollers), but those are heavy rubber with thick sidewalls so it's expected.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*need a swiss made pressure gauge?*



Stalk said:


> Mike,
> 
> what specific tires you are running at those low pressures? Sidewall contruction/compound?
> 
> ...


same here:
20 psi is ridiculously low. at such pressures i wouldn't be able to do 1 corner without washing out. the tires will be way too wobbly on the rim.for cruising around this might be ok but not for cornering at higher speeds.

i do belive Mike that he can run as low though - if we have pressure gauges showing completely different numbers i had debates going on and on with people telling you about pressures they use but then we have all some china plastic gauges with one showing 10 psi more or less than the other so this numbers become more or less useless...

no honestly . lighter riders such as girls or really fat tires sure might allow for lower pressure settings but when he says at 175lbs he uses 20 psi i have my doubts with his pressure gauge (or with his riding style/ability?)

but i completely agree with Mike on his thoughts about regular rims just used with tape. as i already pointed out above this isn't safe and might lead to blow-offs. by the way: this was the way Stan started his business: just some tape on a regular rim...anyway - i really can't suggest such a combo but i had no issues with UST rims and regular tires by not using silly low pressures.


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## SlackBoy (Mar 7, 2008)

Mike B. said:


> Maybe I should take offense to that?
> 
> I know I nor any of the teams we work with that run UST rims can ran "low" pressure without excessive burping. Low for me on a 26x2.0 tire is 20 psi and I'm 175lbs. Low on my 29er is 16 psi. Take the Luna Chix for example, all running Maxxis tires on Crossmax SLRs with Olympic rim strips. Not big girls by any stretch and not able to run the pressures they want to run without adding the strips.
> 
> ...


I ran Maxxis Larsens Exception series on my crossmax's last season with Stans goo. I only ever burped twice. Both when I let the pressures get REALLY low, as in sub 20 (cos I was too lazy to pump em up) I ran 30-35psi, which would seem on the high side for most tubeless riders. I found any less and the tire would squirm way too much. Not burp tho, but roll and squirm. I do weigh 80 odd kg's (no idea of pounds, we work in Metric down here, cept for bike weights, they are always in pounds, as it should be) and I'm not exactly a subtle rider. No issues with traction, up down or cornering.
I could run a standard Kevlar larsen at slightly lower pressure tho. Due to the slightly thicker and stiffer sidewall.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*exactly...*



SlackBoy said:


> I ran Maxxis Larsens Exception series on my crossmax's last season with Stans goo. I only ever burped twice. Both when I let the pressures get REALLY low, as in sub 20 (cos I was too lazy to pump em up) I ran 30-35psi, which would seem on the high side for most tubeless riders. I found any less and the tire would squirm way too much. Not burp tho, but roll and squirm. I do weigh 80 odd kg's (no idea of pounds, we work in Metric down here, cept for bike weights, they are always in pounds, as it should be) and I'm not exactly a subtle rider. No issues with traction, up down or cornering.
> I could run a standard Kevlar larsen at slightly lower pressure tho. Due to the slightly thicker and stiffer sidewall.


that's what i was trying to describe above. at too low pressures the tires will move on the rim and lead to unprecise handling.

80 kilos = 176 lbs...that's about the weight Mike is. that's why i said i can't imagine him riding with such low numbers. but your numbers (30-35psi = 2,0 - 2,4 bar) sound good to me. i'm around 70 kilos (155 lbs) and feel best with minimum 26 psi but usually around 30 psi. any lower, especially on the front ,and the steering gets too unprecise.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> Tell that to several guys I know and the set I tested.


show me a rim that holds a tire bead better?


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

kevbikemad said:


> i don't think you could burp a tire on the ZTR RACE rims... you would have to probably blow the tire right off. the tire fits so nice and tight, it can be hard to pop the tire bead off the rim even with no air pressure. other tires and rim combos i have tried (UST and standard with rim strips) the tires pop off at low pressure - NOT the RACE rims. they hold better than ANY other rim I have seen.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Nonsense, I've burped several brands of tires on ZTR rims, running 30-35 psi.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Cheers! said:


> I thought you still had to run the "Stan's Yellow Tape" on Notube's rims. Isn't the Yellow tape the same thing as a rimstrip?


Yellow tape is like 5 grams a wheel, rim strips are about 30 grams a wheel.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

nino said:


> same here:
> 20 psi is ridiculously low. at such pressures i wouldn't be able to do 1 corner without washing out. the tires will be way too wobbly on the rim.for cruising around this might be ok but not for cornering at higher speeds.
> 
> i do belive Mike that he can run as low though - if we have pressure gauges showing completely different numbers i had debates going on and on with people telling you about pressures they use but then we have all some china plastic gauges with one showing 10 psi more or less than the other so this numbers become more or less useless...
> ...


i run 20 on the front on a regular basis - i have double checked my pressure with several other pumps and a gauge. i can can run these pressures WITHOUT squirm on the RACE rims due to the rim width - never a burb at 20 psi. no squirming, honest. tires include Conti Speed Kings SS, Conti Twisters SS, Nokian NBX, Crows. (Twisters hook up GREAT at low pressure and the SS sidewall hold up NO problem).

if i try to run the same pressures on my crossmax SL wheels - LOTS of squirm, lack of handling and burping. the lowest i can go on those wheels is about 24-25 psi. weight is 150 with gear.

BTW - i believe MikeB works at NoTubes... I am sure they have an accurate gauge around.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Mike B. said:


> Maybe I should take offense to that?
> 
> I know I nor any of the teams we work with that run UST rims can ran "low" pressure without excessive burping. Low for me on a 26x2.0 tire is 20 psi and I'm 175lbs. Low on my 29er is 16 psi. Take the Luna Chix for example, all running Maxxis tires on Crossmax SLRs with Olympic rim strips. Not big girls by any stretch and not able to run the pressures they want to run without adding the strips.
> 
> ...


Hey Mike, on a whole, I agree with your post, but there are certain standard tires that will mount to a UST rim, with no troubles. I ran a Maxxis 2.4 Advantage on Crossmax SX wheels. I'm well over 200lbs, and ride rugged trails, I never burped once, at 28-32 psi. That's not to say they can't be burped, but for a big guy they worked damn well.


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## Mike B. (Feb 21, 2004)

The most recent setups I've been running are as follows:
ZTR Race 7000 - Raven 2.2 front in the 20-24 psi range, Raven 2.0 rear in the 22-26 range
ZTR Race 7000 - Karma 2.0 front also 20-24 psi, Raven 2.0 rear 22-26 range
For those that don't know, the 7000 series rims have a super short sidewall and measure 21.2mm wide inside. Both dimensions aid greatly to improve tire stability at low pressure. 

Pretty good results with those setups overall. I liked the 2.2 front better than the 2.0 even giving up some knob for our spring/summer conditions here in New York. I did get caught up in a rut that burped a 2.0 Karma once but I'd put that mistake squarely on my own shoulders. A friend I ride with regularly at our local spot is a little lighter than me and with 2.0 Crows on ZTR 355 rims can not run less than 26 psi when using just the tape and valve setup. Not much issue on the rear but the way he corners in the tight & twisty stuff allows him to burp front tires. 

ZTR 355 29er and Race 29er proto wheels with the following setups:
Karma 1.9 front at 20-24 psi, Raven 2.0 rear at 22-24 psi
Karma 2.2 front at 18-22 psi, Raven 2.0 rear or Karma 1.9 rear at 22-24 psi
Racing Ralph 2.25 front at 18-22 psi, Raven 2.0 rear at 22-24 psi
Racing Ralph 2.4 front a 16-20 psi, Racing Ralph 2.25 rear at 20-24 psi

The Karma/Raven and Karma/Karma setups were early in the year locally and also ran the Karma 2.2/Karma 1.9 setup in the Gooseberry Mesa area last year for a week. I did cut the 1.9 while on that trip then later cut the 2.2 Karma back home. The 2.25 Ralph/Raven rear was what I ran most of the summer here as well as a trip to State College, PA and also Mt. Snow. In State College, the land of large slippy rocks, I had trouble finding a pressure with the Karma/Raven setup that would both grip the rocks but not slam the rim all the time on the prototypes. The rims survived but I barely did. If you don't ride that stuff often enough you definitely lose the touch. 

The 2.4 RR/2.25 RR combo was used just recently for a post-Interbike tour of Utah. We rode Gooseberry, Sovereign and Hazard County down in Moab, Thunder Mountain outside of Bryce, then back to the Goose. I loved the big tires for that tech stuff, especially running the about 17psi up front for bombing down Porcupine with only 80mm of Reba up front. I did have a small burp on one ledge but didn't add any pressure, just let it be. 

For reference a 355 29er is 19mm inside and the proto rim is 20.4mm inside with a little shorter sidewall. 

Conditions wise, we're looking at mostly hardpack with lots of roots, some loose rocky conditions but primarily larger embedded type rock without many sharp edges. In the middle of summer the corners can get a bit dry and dusty but nothing like what you'll find in the western US. For the fall, something a little more knobby to penetrate the leaf covered trails is required. I don't get much or any of that "rolling" feeling in the corners but then most of our corners aren't of the high speed variety. If you hit 9 or 10 mph on the singletrack around here, you're really doing something. Compare that to Thunder Mountain that was smooth & swoopy hardpack near the bottom where we hit nearly 30 mph while still taking in the scenery. 

When I rode 26" exclusively and prior to making rims I used Mavic 717 with standard rim strips for xc and could burp them running the Karmas in the 26-30 psi range. I also ran Mavic 219 on the dirt jump bike with Rhyno strips and 2.35 tires which would only burp when landing a little sideways or coming up short on 180 bunny hops, etc. Normally ran the larger tires in the same 26-30 psi range. On the freeride bike it was Mavic D321 (729) rims with the downhill rim strips and 2.5 tires which never burped but weighed a ton.

As for gauges, there is a ton of variation out there. We've seen it first hand and mention it often to customers. For some reason, folks are easily offended if you suggest their gauge might not be correct but that's a different discussion. I carry a Topeak digital with me religiously which have proven to be pretty darn good for the price. I started carrying it everywhere based on recommendations from the pro mechanics we work with at the races. If I'm on the bike (road or mountain) I've got one with me. No it's not calibrated regularly but I trust it for now. I like the digital because I don't see all that well, it's compact and rather light while also reading in bar and kg/cm^2. If someone has read this far and has a recommendation for a different gauge, I'll give it a try. Floor pumps and such I do not trust. 

Think that covers everything. Any questions, just ask.


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## Mike B. (Feb 21, 2004)

snowdrifter said:


> Hey Mike, on a whole, I agree with your post, but there are certain standard tires that will mount to a UST rim, with no troubles. I ran a Maxxis 2.4 Advantage on Crossmax SX wheels. I'm well over 200lbs, and ride rugged trails, I never burped once, at 28-32 psi. That's not to say they can't be burped, but for a big guy they worked damn well.


Oh certainly, I wouldn't disagree with you there. When you measure tire beads you can find a ton of variation. I would suggest that the tighter fitting tires are less likely to be an issue however finding them is not always easy. One large tire manufacturer we have worked with claims a bead diameter tolerance of .75mm and yet we've found tires as much as 7mm out of spec. For a tubed application, not a big deal but for tubeless well, different story.

UST spec sought to standardize the bead size by making each manufacturer purchase the same bead "hoop" from a single source. It works to some extent but the amount of rubber on or around the finished bead can still vary and, this is purely speculation, but single sources aren't usually the way to a good price.

There is a lot of interest on the tire manufacturing side as well as the distribution side to create more "tubeless ready" type tires but we'll first need to agree on some bead diameter specs. Butyl for the lining in UST is getting very expensive, manufacturers can make just one model of tire instead of 2 distinct models, less skus for distributors and retailers, etc. Currently though everyone is doing their own thing for tubeless ready beads but hopefully one day soon all will agree and we'll have light tires that can be run tubed or tubeless with sealant on any rim you want with reduced burping.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I was struggling trying to run the pressures that I was hearing reccomended here and elsewhere for the longest time. I would constantly have trouble with burping and otherwise. I certainly did not enjoy running the Conti Speed King Supersonics on my Crossmax SLs. They would burp consistantly in the front. I was running them sans rim strip.

Then I discovered that my Blackburn floor pump's gauge was reading 7 psi high. So when I thought I had 30psi in the tire, it was in fact 23psi. I have one of those same Topeak digital gauges and it works well. I hate where the on/off button is though. Being left handed, I regularly turn it off when trying to read the tire pressure. I verified the accuracy of my Topeak with the Longacre tire gauge I use for auto racing. I also have no issues anymore with burping running somewhat more realistic pressures. Oh, and I long ago gave up on the Crossmax SL UST wheels with regular tires and no rim strip. I'm now using Stan's rims exclusively. I have the Race 7000 on the front of my Yeti with Lefty fork, and the Olympic on the back, and the other bike has a set of the 355s front and rear.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Mike B. said:


> Maybe I should take offense to that?
> 
> I know I nor any of the teams we work with that run UST rims can ran "low" pressure without excessive burping. Low for me on a 26x2.0 tire is 20 psi and I'm 175lbs. Low on my 29er is 16 psi. Take the Luna Chix for example, all running Maxxis tires on Crossmax SLRs with Olympic rim strips. Not big girls by any stretch and not able to run the pressures they want to run without adding the strips.


Mike, sorry but please don't. But sometimes this info can be very misleading. First off I don't run pressure that low. Years ago when Satn first came out with "tubeless" I ran 32 psi on a 2.0 rear tire on a UST rim. Speeding fast as heel I went over a good size root un weighted and bent my rims to the point where the hop was so bad, I trashed the rim. I was 160lbs back then. I now run 35/38 with 2.25 Schwalbe tires @ 175lbs with no bruping on UST rims. Any lower psi I fell like I am running on flat tires and the rim is bottoming out.

I borrowed a friends Race whees with the same tires. I tried 25/30psi and it was horrible!

I would never recommend the use of a UST rim and a standard tire without the rim strip. Just as yellow tape and a valve is a dangerous setup on any other rim due to sidewall heights and shapes. If you can run it and feel comfortable, go for it but I can not and I would never recommend a customer try it either. nino and others might imply that I'm trying to sell rims by making such statements but I'm first and foremost a mountain biker like any of the rest of you and I'd rather make sure someone has a fun and safe ride than risk a blowout for 15 grams. 
.[/quote]Funny, but this is how Stan started his business with MANY of us a Guinnea Pigs!!  

I don't know how long you have been there or on this board, but the horror strories are numerous. My wife a a few lighter freinds are running yellow tape on Mavic 717 with no burping or blow-off issues. Some tires work better than others.

But since I no longer race MTB, I am back on UST tires as I can change them out easier for the condtions without blow-off and lower pressures.

The new rims are very nice and are desgined smartly for tubeless apllications. But don't say you can never burp a tire.

I commmend the NoTubes Family for really working on this. Not like the old days of risking your life or hearing running "NoTubes."


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

snowdrifter said:


> kevbikemad said:
> 
> 
> > i don't think you could burp a tire on the ZTR RACE rims... you would have to probably blow the tire right off. the tire fits so nice and tight, it can be hard to pop the tire bead off the rim even with no air pressure. other tires and rim combos i have tried (UST and standard with rim strips) the tires pop off at low pressure - NOT the RACE rims. they hold better than ANY other rim I have seen.
> ...


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## longxc (Feb 7, 2005)

*Anyone tried them yet?*

-----------------------------------------

Never mind continues here


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## JaLove (Dec 24, 2006)

This discussion sure went far afield, eh?


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

I think the average number of posts before something drifts off topic is between 15-18. We're at 75 in this thread. It was inevitable.


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