# WWTP013: TIG Practice



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

I see this thread being my update for the next month. I mean, I'll update along the way but I need lots of practice and I don't foresee getting past this just right away.

Background on my welding experience again is...

When I was in high school, my best friend's dad had a shop that did prototype machinery. I started helping out there in the summer, sweeping floors and running the band saw, parts running, extra hand during fitting, just whatever needed to be done. I was interested in machining. That looked cool to me. I started running the lathes and mills and learned a little at a time until I was pretty much running the machine shop through college. I never could weld worth a damn though (never had a single lesson in it either really, so pretty much self taught). I could make it stick but never welded anything that a break would be catastrophic. It was mostly for jigs, welding parts together before machining, etc. I did like TIG though and hated MIG. MIG is to drill press as TIG is to Bridgeport (to me, as a decent machinist). Brazing is like Yankee drill (again, to me--some of you guys do beautiful work with the torch--I just want to illustrate why I prefer TIG).

That place is no longer really a running company, buddy's dad sold it years ago but still has a fairly nice shop with all the machines and welders just for fun. He's built probably the most impressive shop you'll ever see and will be moving into it over the next several months. My buddy's uncle (Scot) is a very good welder and the guy I tapped to assist me for this project back on New Year's Eve.

So Scot and I took off the other night to get some welding done. He welded a joint just to set up the welder:


















Then he gave me my first real lesson and talked me into trying to burn a hole in one of these small tubing walls. He had me give it just a little bit of pedal, strike the arc and hold it there--no filler, no movement, just hold it there and see that there was no way I'd ever burn a hole in the tube wall unless I have it some gas (I know, amperage, but it's a gas pedal kind of thing and we are in Texas so it's gas). I didn't even get a puddle, just an arc. With more and more pedal, I started to get a puddle and finally let off without ever burning a hole in the tube. This is perhaps the best single thing anyone has ever said/taught me about TIG. Now I didn't know that at the time.... But right away that set the stage for the rest of the evening.

With that, he had me lay add some filler rod.

Not even close to hot enough, but he just wanted to have me get some rod melted:









Ok, now a little more heat:









And a little more:









And a little more:









And a little more, a little hot, but not too shabby:









And a little more and certainly too hot (but still no holes):









We went over position and how important that is. Ways to hold the torch, sit, position the part, hold the rod, feed the rod, etc. Scot actually does this deal where his left hand sits still on the table and feeds the rod in with just his fingers. It was time to move on to my first joint. I think it took about 8 segments for me to get around.

This is the side I started on:









Getting around:









See that little section of good weld in here?:









It's still a little fuzzy inside but that section from the picture above is almost flush:









Just messing around with a tube that is mitered for 1.432" so the gap had to be filled ( I did burn a hole in this but filled it in):









When all the tubing was gone (and most of the beer) I wanted to weld the two sections together in a butt joint just for fun. Scot said I'd burn holes right through it and there was no way I'd get it done but go ahead and try it just for practice:










It wasn't the best butt joint but I got it stuck and only burnt one hole but did manage to fill it. It looks like someone pooped on the metal, but luckily I won't be doing any butt joints in this project.

I'm going to get some lengths of 4130 from Aircraft Spruce and do some more practice (and I have to get a sleeve anyway for the Seat tube). I'll post up progress in this thread and like I said above, I anticipate being "stuck" on this for a while. I've got to get my dropouts ordered anyway and will be doing little stuff but this thread is going to run for a while I'd think.


----------



## supercub (May 5, 2008)

Very Cool. Looking forward to updates.


----------



## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

I'm at the same point you are... I can do it, just not consistantly enough. Practice is all we can do. Play around with different size filler rod too. It really helps.
Those damn brazers think they're so smug....


----------



## jaegmc99 (Mar 18, 2009)

Good progress for a night. keep the pictures comming


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Nice!*

Few tips (apologies if you already know this stuff):

-Clean everything before you start welding
-Try to use a bit less heat and move quicker - you're cooking the crap out of those tubes right now. 
-You might need a bit more gas. Use a gas lens no matter what.

Keep practicing!

-Walt


----------



## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

I know it's been posted on here before, but whay should a good weld look like for comparisons sake.
Walt, you say he's cooking the tubes, how do we know what to look for? 
Thanks


----------



## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

toddre said:


> I know it's been posted on here before, but whay should a good weld look like for comparisons sake.
> Walt, you say he's cooking the tubes, how do we know what to look for?
> Thanks


Todd,

a good bead should be uniform in width, puddle spacing, height and feather into the edges of the base material with a clean bright color (salmon is nice).

A cooked joint is greyish, dull, and may have excessive or inconsistent depth/ undercutting.

Proper preparation, cleaning, torch angle, heat control, torch rate, and feed rate all enter into it...it just takes practice and time.

Here's a quick pic off the blog from last night...

cheers,

rody


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Rody said:


> Todd,
> 
> a good bead should be uniform in width, puddle spacing, height and feather into the edges of the base material with a clean bright color (salmon is nice).
> 
> ...


Rody,

Thanks for posting this. I was thinking that I'd build half a dozen bars in experimental shapes and sizes for practice. I think I can do that for about $10/bar and dial in something I've been thinking about for some time. Now if I can just get them to look like what you've got there (weld wise).

Jay


----------



## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Jay,

I'll be honest, bars are one of the most stressed items on a mountain bicycle. You should only consider fabricating them once you have a solid understanding of physical stress principles, material capabilities, and mastery of joining skills. 

I do not want to discourage you...just want to keep your pretty smile for a while longer :thumbsup: 

cheers,

rody


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Screw any more practice. Weld the bike up and ride it. Weld quality is almost uniportant. From what I see, you could weld 100 bikes and they'd be fine. pretty is for posers!


----------



## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

pvd said:


> Screw any more practice. Weld the bike up and ride it. Weld quality is almost uniportant. From what I see, you could weld 100 bikes and they'd be fine. pretty is for posers!


Seriously Pete? Pretty is for posers? I've been told I have a nice arse, but... 

Despite Pete's black and white analysis, he is fairly accurate. I once built up a frame and tack welded (about 1/8" long) it in four points around each tube then built it up and rode it. It lasted about 2 weeks of off road use before the tacks started to break and it became unsafe to play on anymore. Moral of the story...you'd be surprised just how hard you can ride a bike even on cosmetically challenged welds and still have it hold together.

It's nice to have welds that dissapear under paint, but it certainly is not necessary.

Get to a level you are comfortable with then go for it. :thumbsup:

cheers,

rody


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

pvd said:


> Screw any more practice. Weld the bike up and ride it. Weld quality is almost uniportant. From what I see, you could weld 100 bikes and they'd be fine. pretty is for posers!


You can't be serious.

It's a poor craftsman who justifies shoddy craftsmanship and that kind of attitude is pure BS. In ANY welding code, especially those outside of the bike industry, appearance can be cause for failing a weld inspection.

Lumpy, shitty, welds can be rife with stress risers and all kinds of internal discontinuities and lead to early or catastrophic failure. Burn through, over penetration, under penetration, undercut, over convexity, cold lap, porosity, etc. are all VISUAL causes for failing a weld.

If nothing else, a good weld appearance tells you something: it tells you the craftsman cares about his work, has a level of experience with the craft that allows him to control his welds and understand the effect his welds have on the parent metal, and just as importantly, a talent for his chosen profession.

There are more than enough hacks in this business that don't care about their work; don't add to it.


----------



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

pvd said:


> Pretty is for posers!


I like paying for posers.  They make me look good.

(Tube on left - Columbus XCR.....tube on right.....0.5mm Aermet 100)

Practice that TIG Jay until your arms fall off!


----------



## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

I don't know which is prettier... that weld or your nail polish.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

DWF said:


> You can't be serious.
> 
> It's a poor craftsman who justifies shoddy craftsmanship and that kind of attitude is pure BS. In ANY welding code, especially those outside of the bike industry, appearance can be cause for failing a weld inspection.
> 
> ...


This guy is not going into business. He's making a bike for himself that needs to work. My reaction is based on the absolutely foolish level that welds are fetishised in this industry over good design. Nobody seems to care about good design much but welds can be talked about all day. I see perfect welds on garbage bikes all the time. Guess what? The bike still sucks. Why get lost on that kind of detail.

His welding is fine. The bike will work. It's not going to break. It will even look great after paint. He needs to keep the inertia of the build up and not get boggged down with professional quality welds on a craft bike. I'm just thrilled that he listed about the 1:1 CAD print.


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

pvd said:


> This guy is not going into business. He's making a bike for himself that needs to work. My reaction is based on the absolutely foolish level that welds are fetishised in this industry over good design. Nobody seems to care about good design much but welds can be talked about all day. I see perfect welds on garbage bikes all the time. Guess what? The bike still sucks. Why get lost on that kind of detail.
> 
> His welding is fine. The bike will work. It's not going to break. It will even look great after paint. He needs to keep the inertia of the build up and not get boggged down with professional quality welds on a craft bike. I'm just thrilled that he listed about the 1:1 CAD print.


Why worry about design? It's just a bike for himself and he can copy the geo of any bike on the street and it'll be fine. Design is for posers. How are ~your~ bikes different than ~anybody~ elses?

You see the quandary here? It all matters. If you don't want to excel, why even bother? Exceeding mediocrity is for posers?

Jay needs to not be welding tubes. Like any other welder, he needs to practice welding on the flat until he can control his heat, his filler, and most importantly his puddle. Work on your skills and advance when you're ready. A bike can kill or maim you and joinery is not the place for immediate gratification and relying on paint to make it what it ain't.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

I like all this discussion and I get where all of you are coming from.

PVD, I think I could go stick this thing together today and ride it safely for at least a year or so (the life I think this frame will have as I do intend to build a couple of road frames right after this and then the replacement SS 29er frames using what I've learned).

Unfortunately, I'm sort of a perfectionist and I do want to get it as right as I can without spending the next two years learning how to make the most beautiful welds in the world so I have to find that happy medium here.

I think this is it (in the red circles):










If I can get that all the way around the tube (and do so consistently), I'm welding this sucker up and riding it.

That doesn't mean that I'm going to stop there and be done but I am in agreement that there is a tremendous focus on how cosmetically perfect a weld is in the bike industry which is funny since there are very few visible welds these days with the pervasiveness of powder coat.

True story, and the "click" that made me decide I wanted to build my own frame. A buddy of mine had a DeSalvo commissioned (had an orange and blue Gulf LeMan's car paint scheme--was at NAHMBS a couple of years back) and he brought it over to my place for to assemble it. As soon as it came out of the box, everyone was talking about how beautiful the welds were. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling Mike's work at all here. The point is that after Spectrum had done their thing on the powder, you couldn't see the welds. I couldn't tell if the stays were welded or brazed and I sort of know what I'm looking for. There wasn't a scallop to be seen anywhere on this frame. So these guys were all slobbering on a bike that may have had cosmetically perfect welds or something that looked like what I knew I could do with a couple of hours of reacquainting myself with the TIG torch. That's when I joined this forum and started lurking.

So I get where everyone is coming from. I certainly don't want to become a hack and stick thick powder on welds and sell bikes--that's not my intention and I'll bet there are a lot of folks out there doing that (none of you of course  ) . I don't really want to sell bikes, this is something for me. When I was battling with picking a builder for a 29er SS and realized that I could do my own AND it could look as good as that DeSalvo, that was a no brainer. No amount of money can buy that level of satisfaction in a frame.

Thyacine, that's beautiful stuff. You too, Rody. If I can get to that point one day, awesome--and I'll powder it everywhere but the welds and have clear put over the whole thing! The first one will be done sooner than that for sure but better than what you see there, PVD.

I just want what's in those red circles.

Rody, as far as the bars, I should have been more specific. I don't plan on riding them much. I plan on prototyping some bars for shape/function and just riding them once or twice to trial/error into what I like so that I can have something custom built in Ti (you're on the top of that short list BTW--hopefully you'll take the job). Also, I figured I could use 'em on the spin bike. I hate that machine. It's a soul sucking beast but if it's wet in DFW, we can't ride the trails so it's to the spin bike. I'd like to get some bars on it that match what I ride off road as the stupid bars that came on it are just so terrible.

So what about that picture with the red circles? If I can do that all the way around a tube, shouldn't I go for it? I'd like to hear why I should/shouldn't from all of you that have already chimed in on this thread.

And thanks for all the feedback already, guys. I hope this is what Walt had in mine when he started this thing a year ago. I know you have all far exceeded my expectations in feedback, advice, and shared knowledge so far.

Thanks,
Jay


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Here are a couple of random ones.*

I'm going to reference this thread in the FAQ, probably, so keep posting pictures and hints for TIG, guys.

Here's my contribution, couple shots (the lighting is pretty bad here, in RL everything is a bit less grey/dark than it appears). This is a Yo fork semi-replica for a guy here in CO.

-Walt


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Since this may land in the FAQ...

I use gas lenses whenever I can fit them.

Any heatsink you can use rocks the world.

Plugs (or shape holders) are better than nothing even if they are steel and not copper.

It you have the time to spare and love plumbing, backpurging is the sh!t!

Take your time. I rush. I hate welding. Spend more time for better results.

Listen to Malcolm X,. Don't read. He was a speaker, not a writer.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

pvd said:


> I use gas lenses whenever I can fit them.


What's a gas lense?


----------



## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

pvd said:


> Since this may land in the FAQ...
> 
> Any heatsink you can use rocks the world.
> 
> Plugs (or shape holders) are better than nothing even if they are steel and not copper.


I'd like to try a heat sink, any suggestions for a DIY sink?
What do you mean about the plugs and shape holders?


----------



## vavaroutsos (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok, I have to ask, do any of you guys use a pulser? If so, what settings do you typically use?

~petev


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

toddre said:


> What do you mean about the plugs and shape holders?


I use these cap type things that slip/light press into tue ends. They are super easy to make from steel and don't take much material. They hold the round shape of the tube, but not properly like a heat sink would. It's ghetto, it's cheap, it't's easy, but it helps.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Nope*

I just use my foot. I used to run a pulser at about 60 htz, but decided I liked doing it all manually better.

IMO, pulser is really mostly just for rhythm - it helps some folks keep constant speed and filler feed. I prefer the flexibility of just doing it myself and being able to vary the pulse rate (or not pulse at all) as I see fit in the middle of a weld.

That's just me, though. Lots of people use them.

-Walt



vavaroutsos said:


> Ok, I have to ask, do any of you guys use a pulser? If so, what settings do you typically use?
> 
> ~petev


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

jay_ntwr said:


> That doesn't mean that I'm going to stop there and be done but I am in agreement that there is a tremendous focus on how cosmetically perfect a weld is in the bike industry which is funny since there are very few visible welds these days with the pervasiveness of powder coat.
> 
> True story, and the "click" that made me decide I wanted to build my own frame. A buddy of mine had a DeSalvo commissioned (had an orange and blue Gulf LeMan's car paint scheme--was at NAHMBS a couple of years back) and he brought it over to my place for to assemble it. As soon as it came out of the box, everyone was talking about how beautiful the welds were. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling Mike's work at all here. The point is that after Spectrum had done their thing on the powder, you couldn't see the welds. I couldn't tell if the stays were welded or brazed and I sort of know what I'm looking for. There wasn't a scallop to be seen anywhere on this frame. *So these guys were all slobbering on a bike that may have had cosmetically perfect welds or something that looked like what I knew I could do with a couple of hours of reacquainting myself with the TIG torch. * That's when I joined this forum and started lurking.


I'm sorry, but to me you're being delusional and/or reaching for the highest rungs of arrogance if you think you're going to be any where near as good as MikeD in a "few hours of practice" based on the examples you've posted up so far. It's what's under the paint/powder that matters; not faking it because it's going have a coat of paint over it.

MikeD's (who is a very skilled welder) welds blending in perfectly under the paint is what you're looking for. Your welds, untouched, should like a miniature smoothed fillets with smooth transitions between parents. And yes, when they're painted, they should disappear.


----------



## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

pvd said:


> I use these cap type things that slip/light press into tue ends. They are super easy to make from steel and don't take much material. They hold the round shape of the tube, but not properly like a heat sink would. It's ghetto, it's cheap, it't's easy, but it helps.


If you get a chance, can you pop a pic on here, I'm not getting it


----------



## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

jay_ntwr said:


> What's a gas lense?












[edit] took out all the garbage, left the important picture.


----------



## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Hopefully someone will explain how a gas lens is an advantage for smaller cup sizes...


----------



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

So that when you inhale, the cup size appears much larger than it did in the nightclub??


----------



## Jamenstall (May 18, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> Hopefully someone will explain how a gas lens is an advantage for smaller cup sizes...


Does the gas lens as pictured above give you the same coverage as say one of these http://tinyurl.com/c5z3bt but in a smaller package?


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> Hopefully someone will explain how a gas lens is an advantage for smaller cup sizes...


Laminar flow, better gas coverage, more tungsten stick out. Regular collets can cause turbulent flow which sucks air into the argon curtain as it leaves the cup body and gets worse if you increase argon cfm (and therefor gas velocity) for more stickout. No big deal most of the time on steel, but is death when welding reactive metals (ti, stainless, mag, etc.).

Gas lenses are cheap, I use them for everything.


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

SOFTBUTT said:


> Does the gas lens as pictured above give you the same coverage as say one of these https://tinyurl.com/c5z3bt but in a smaller package?


No. Bigger cup gives you more coverage area. The reason you use such a big cup when welding Ti is that you have to maintain gas coverage over not just the molten weld puddle, but sections of the weld that are above its reactive/transition temperature until they cool sufficiently. The big cups give you the area coverage and flow you need to do that without having to resort to trailing gas setups (most of the time). I'll see if I can find a pic of a trail setup to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about.

edit: here's some pics of trailing gas rigs:

















While I'm at it, here's a pic that shows the difference between the flow characteristics of a regular collet body and a gas lens:


----------



## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

toddre said:


> I'd like to try a heat sink, any suggestions for a DIY sink?
> What do you mean about the plugs and shape holders?


Todd,

Here's a new one that I fabb'd up in about 2 hours from the blog...pretty inexpensive and very effective in reducing seat tube distortion:thumbsup:

rody


----------



## bent steel (Oct 24, 2005)

Hehe, just for reference:









I'll try to get some actual detail shots later, you can see weld, but I will admit that with powder, it's much trickier to see actual detail than it is on my Mike D ti roady:









I love watching the progress Jay! I'll have to get back to Texas to check out the completed rig!

Ben


----------



## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

There is a guy around here who rides a light-blue DeSalvo. It's a very nice frame.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

DWF said:


> I'm sorry, but to me you're being delusional and/or reaching for the highest rungs of arrogance if you think you're going to be any where near as good as MikeD in a "few hours of practice" based on the examples you've posted up so far. It's what's under the paint/powder that matters; not faking it because it's going have a coat of paint over it.
> 
> MikeD's (who is a very skilled welder) welds blending in perfectly under the paint is what you're looking for. Your welds, untouched, should like a miniature smoothed fillets with smooth transitions between parents. And yes, when they're painted, they should disappear.


Go back and read what I wrote. I said that Mike's stuff is beautiful. I also said that to the average idiot that though the welds were "beautiful" and so covered in powder that they are barely visible that I could do the same "quality" as that once covered in powder--to that average idiot--not to you guys.

I in no way am arrogant or delusional enough to think that I can attain what Mike does in even dozens of frames or several years of practice. But I do believe I can "fake it" as you've put it and that's good enough for me to ride around and be proud of. I'm not trying to sell bikes or be a bike builder at the business level or even boutique level. I'm just want to be a hobby builder for myself, my girlfriend, and maybe a couple of folks that help along with the process.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

bent steel said:


> Hehe, just for reference:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ben, thanks for posting. Get some good pictures of Richard (ha!) under powder for us.

BTW, qualifying was way better than I expected. We need to get a thread going on the other forum.


----------



## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Rody said:


> Todd,
> 
> Here's a new one that I fabb'd up in about 2 hours from the blog...pretty inexpensive and very effective in reducing seat tube distortion:thumbsup:
> 
> rody


That's a great pic, thanks.
Let me ask a real newbie question here,
I have some in mind that is just like that, but it's steel. Do you think I could get away with using that assuming that I wrap it in a brass sleeve some how?


----------



## Jamenstall (May 18, 2004)

DWF said:


> No. Bigger cup gives you more coverage area. The reason you use such a big cup when welding Ti is that you have to maintain gas coverage over not just the molten weld puddle, but sections of the weld that are above its reactive/transition temperature until they cool sufficiently. The big cups give you the area coverage and flow you need to do that without having to resort to trailing gas setups (most of the time). I'll see if I can find a pic of a trail setup to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about.
> 
> edit: here's some pics of trailing gas rigs:
> 
> ...


Don

Thanks for the answer. I have a torch from CK with the large pyrex cup. It seems to work ok, but you also have to take into consideration my lack of skill. At times the cup size seems to get in the way, which I then try to compensate by sticking the tungsten out further. I started some practice joints this weekend , but I ran out of gas. I was getting low and should have got some more when the getting was good. I will try and get some shots up this week.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

I've got a ton of parts mitered for my next date with a TIG torch. I'll get some pictures up this weekend. Also, talked to the shop owner and have scheduled some time next week to go do some welding. I'll get post round #2 of that stuff here. Hopefully we'll see some big improvements.

Jay


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm getting a little better. Not much, but a little. One thing I have noticed is that I'm a lot more confident and relaxed. So much so that I did get bitten by the welder for the first time in a long time. I hate that. I only got bitten once last night though. Ever notice how it takes a couple of minutes to have a steady hand again after that?

I'm finding that i get some really good sections now (but mostly surrounded by terrible sections). I had 6 test pieces I made last week (sorry, I never got pictures of those, but they were little sections of 4130 that I hand mitered with files).

Here we go:


































Also, I figured I may as well do something useful while I'm out there. I wanted to make a handlebar for the spin bike. I hate the spin bike. But, sometimes it rains for so long here that we can't ride at all (can't ride wet trails in DFW at all because of the clay). So I wanted to have a bar that mimics my H-Bar for the spin bike. This turned out to be some of the best welding of the evening.


































I'm getting close to thinking it's time to weld. I may not be doing the best job, but it looks ok enough to ride to me. It certainly looks better than some of the stuff I've seen in a recent senior design thread.


----------



## rustola (Jan 15, 2008)

Definitely looks good enough to start on the frame. Of course there's room to improve, but it's good enough to build a bike that won't break (at least not right away). One thing that I would recommend, though, is to clean your material a whole lot better than what I see in these pictures (#4 is decent though).

I first sand all the mill scale off (inside and out) so it's completely silver at least an inch away from the weld. Then wash with simple green, then wipe with acetone. That'll help a lot with the grey charred junk adjacent to your welds.

cheers and keep on keepin' on


----------



## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

how's my TIG welding.....????:devil: 









O.k. so it's been a while. I was just trying to show someone I could do it with a gas torch.

Old school baby.........Should I start marketing it.......Built like your great, great, great grandfather would have....


----------



## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

rustola said:


> Definitely looks good enough to start on the frame. Of course there's room to improve, but it's good enough to build a bike that won't break (at least not right away). One thing that I would recommend, though, is to clean your material a whole lot better than what I see in these pictures (#4 is decent though).
> 
> I first sand all the mill scale off (inside and out) so it's completely silver at least an inch away from the weld. Then wash with simple green, then wipe with acetone. That'll help a lot with the grey charred junk adjacent to your welds.
> 
> cheers and keep on keepin' on


I assume you're using the simple green straight?


----------



## rustola (Jan 15, 2008)

toddre said:


> I assume you're using the simple green straight?


yeah, I spray it on straight, then scrub under a running faucet for a bit.


----------



## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

rustola said:


> yeah, I spray it on straight, then scrub under a running faucet for a bit.


Great... thanks for the tip !:thumbsup:


----------



## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Neato, Dave. I went over to the YouTubes and watched a video on it.

Anybody else' eyes hurt when they watch welding videos?

I felt like I should be wearing my goggles 

(On topic: +1 on the cleanliness. Keep practicing, try less amps/smaller rod, too. Don't make your practice joints too easy; you'll have tighter junctions and more out-of-position welds on the actual frame. Good job!)


----------



## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

Pigeon sh!t.
Nothing personal to anyone, but thats what most of these welds look like. Wow.
RTW.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

rickthewelder said:


> Pigeon sh!t.
> Nothing personal to anyone, but thats what most of these welds look like. Wow.
> RTW.


I love a good pigeon **** post by a guy that doesn't post a picture to back up his critique.


----------



## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

rickthewelder said:


> Pigeon sh!t.
> Nothing personal to anyone, but thats what most of these welds look like. Wow.
> RTW.


Rick. It's practice bro. People have to start somewhere. Remember when you didn't have a shyte job welding alllllll day long until your eyeballs fall out? Even your welds looked like that once.

You could add something productive with all your experience or you can be a putz.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


----------



## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

rickthewelder said:


> Pigeon sh!t.
> Nothing personal to anyone, but thats what most of these welds look like. Wow.
> RTW.


Dude, he's not a professional. He's an amateur. What do you expect?

You're a great ambassador for your company. Not.


----------



## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Intense welds, not mine. Pic swiped from https://www.intensemountainbikes.com/images/intense-welds-sidebar.jpg


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

The welding on my first (100% me) bike was horrible. It's still ridden by a friend every day. It's never broken. A lousy welding job can perform just fine on a bicycle. Practice until you are tired of practicing, then go for it.


----------



## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

RoyDean said:


> Dude, he's not a professional. He's an amateur. What do you expect?
> 
> You're a great ambassador for your company. Not.


Well, I post as a private citizen not as an '' ambassador'' for any company, on my computer at my house on my off time. You trying to link it to who I work for is chickensh!t, and you know it.
Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings, I said it was not personal 1st thing.
I recommend the guy starts welding stringer beads on flat stock with silicone bronze. It helps teach low heat applications, and flows like silk, and would help him alot. And do it till he masters it.
He obviously is'nt ready for tube welds.
Also, try adding the wire at a lower angle, you can see he is probably pushing it at close to 60 degrees.
And when it starts to get out of control, move your foot off of the pedal.
Rick.


----------



## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

jay_ntwr said:


> I love a good pigeon **** post by a guy that doesn't post a picture to back up his critique.


4130.
The only steel pics I have on this computer.
RTW.


----------



## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

D.F.L. said:


> Intense welds, not mine. Pic swiped from https://www.intensemountainbikes.com/images/intense-welds-sidebar.jpg


Not mine either.
RTW.


----------



## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

rickthewelder said:


> Well, I post as a private citizen not as an '' ambassador'' for any company, on my computer at my house on my off time. You trying to link it to who I work for is chickensh!t, and you know it.


You publicly admit who you work for on this board, so you better believe it comes right back to your company. You can call it whatever you want but your public opinions reflect poorly on your employer, regardless of your intentions.


----------



## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

RoyDean said:


> You publicly admit who you work for on this board, so you better believe it comes right back to your company. You can call it whatever you want but your public opinions reflect poorly on your employer, regardless of your intentions.


You need to re-read what you just posted, but this time, think about it.
Sheesh.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

rickthewelder said:


> Well, I post as a private citizen not as an '' ambassador'' for any company, on my computer at my house on my off time. You trying to link it to who I work for is chickensh!t, and you know it.
> Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings, I said it was not personal 1st thing.
> I recommend the guy starts welding stringer beads on flat stock with silicone bronze. It helps teach low heat applications, and flows like silk, and would help him alot. And do it till he masters it.
> He obviously is'nt ready for tube welds.
> ...


This was way more constructive. Thanks.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

pvd said:


> The welding on my first (100% me) bike was horrible. It's still ridden by a friend every day. It's never broken. A lousy welding job can perform just fine on a bicycle. Practice until you are tired of practicing, then go for it.


Yeah, the reality is that while I'd like to keep practicing, I've also got to get something built. My welds certainly don't look great to me yet either, but they look sound. This frame needs to last 1 year or 1,000 miles (just enough time for me to take what I've learned and start/build another one). I think I'm close to that.

The biggest problem I'm having at the moment is that the TIG machine is a solid 1.5 hours from where I live/work. It's just not practical for me to get as much practice as I'd like. I'd like to get this frame built and start considering a used welder. The one that I'm using is an old Airco (I guess Miller bought them) and weighs about 600lbs. It's huge--but I found one just like it for $1,000 and the guy had sold it before I called. Here's another one very just like the Airco after they became Miller:

http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/for/1149378002.html

It would be nice to get something a lot smaller and newer and hopefully if I take my time, I can find something. Until then, I have to temper practice and getting a frame done. It's not going to be as nice looking as I'd like but maybe #2 can be.


----------



## vavaroutsos (Feb 15, 2009)

I wouldn't waste my money on an old machine like this. You can get a new Miller Dynasty 200DX for around $2500. I'm not sure if they are still available, but the Thermal arc 185TSW for around $1800. The inverter based machines are much smaller and more efficient and have more advanced pulser & sequencer.

~petev


----------



## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

You can find a used syncrowave for ~$1k.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

vavaroutsos said:


> I wouldn't waste my money on an old machine like this. You can get a new Miller Dynasty 200DX for around $2500. I'm not sure if they are still available, but the Thermal arc 185TSW for around $1800. The inverter based machines are much smaller and more efficient and have more advanced pulser & sequencer.
> 
> ~petev


Pete, how important is a water cooled torch versus air cooled? I was told to stay away from anything with air cooled torch.


----------



## TortugaTonta (Jun 14, 2004)

It looks to me like you will be fine, provided you use senseble tubing. If you try to build a 3# frame you might have an issue with the weld.


----------



## vavaroutsos (Feb 15, 2009)

jay_ntwr said:


> Pete, how important is a water cooled torch versus air cooled? I was told to stay away from anything with air cooled torch.


The water cooled torches use a much smaller wire (it's water cooled) so they are more flexible and easy to manipulate in tight areas. A water cooled setup is more expensive as the torch costs a little more and you need a water cooler. For lower currents you can get by with an air cooled torch. Just don't get one that is rated for 300 A, or the wire will be so large it's hard to manipulate in tight areas. I like the CK Worldwide torches, but I'm sure other have different preferences.

~petev


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

jay_ntwr said:


> Pete, how important is a water cooled torch versus air cooled? I was told to stay away from anything with air cooled torch.


You can always add water later. I'd be more focused on making sure I could run AC and pulse first.

Water does rule, but at the hobby level I don't think it's a deal breaker.


----------

