# Surly ECR worth it?



## OfficerFriendly (Apr 16, 2014)

I absolutely love it, but it's a lot of money, espcially compared to other frames - on one's. Would love to hear some input 
EDIT: Or would I maybe be better off just getting a pugsley and running 29+ on it? I already have a mukluk, but I'm finding it really sluggish for long distances while carrying weight and I want a steel bike so bad! I'm not sure how the riding geometrey would differentiate between the pugs and the mukluk though...


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## seedub (Nov 16, 2005)

More than you ever wanted to know re: ECR. Read the rest of the blog regarding chasing the the all-rounder. Sounds like you two have a similar dilemma.

Dissecting the Surly ECR | gypsy by trade


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

the low BB when running traditional 29er tires or lower volume tires for mostly paved tours puts me off 

why not 29+ the mukluk? too much difference in the drivetrains you want for touring vs winter/beach rides?


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## OfficerFriendly (Apr 16, 2014)

seedub said:


> More than you ever wanted to know re: ECR. Read the rest of the blog regarding chasing the the all-rounder. Sounds like you two have a similar dilemma.
> 
> Dissecting the Surly ECR | gypsy by trade


Thanks for the article! I absolutely love that blog, it's amazing...



TitanofChaos said:


> the low BB when running traditional 29er tires or lower volume tires for mostly paved tours puts me off
> 
> why not 29+ the mukluk? too much difference in the drivetrains you want for touring vs winter/beach rides?


Fair enough, and no I really wanted to keep that as a fatbike, and I don't really love riding it long distances.... Need something built for touring!


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## csmo (Aug 11, 2012)

Check this out in regards to it as a touring bike: Surly ECR: Bike Touring 1,000 KM Impressions - Pedaling Nowhere


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

I still don't get the ECR. Sandy back road touring, fire road passes with a chance of snow? Pretty narrow speciality IMO. Not that you couldn't use it where ever but IMO 3 inch tires and racks don't mix in most cases.


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## pierre meux (Dec 1, 2008)

I do a fair bit of dirt touring in the arid Southwest, and it's hard to imagine a better off-the-shelf dirt tourer than the ECR (the full build). I think this is especially true for longer self-supported touring, where carrying more gear and more than a few days of food (and maybe a few days of water) warrants more space (racks) than afforded by bike-packing set up. The geometry, cockpit, braze-ons--it's all purpose-built for dirt touring. The 29x3s, especially up front, are good for two things: a bit of suspension, and more secure rolling in soft and, just as importantly, very chunky terrain (rocky, chunky two tracks, following now-gone routes, both of which I find myself on quite a bit). The only downside I see is the low BB. In my opinion the stability benefits of a low BB don't outweigh the cost of pedal strikes on a loaded rig while navigating rocky, variable terrain.


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## ECR (Sep 25, 2013)

Surly ECR worth it?

Depends on what you are looking for. If your riding is mostly asphalt or singletrack then perhaps not, but Surly's ECR with 29x3 Knards is the "go-to long distance, off-road touring bike".


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

OfficerFriendly said:


> Would love to hear some input
> EDIT: Or would I maybe be better off just getting a pugsley and running 29+


Lots of people are enjoying Kram-Pugs. If you had a Pugsley you could get rid of the Muk and just run a fat and a 29+ wheelset. :thumbsup:

I debated doing that myself before buying a Krampus as my touring bike.

Cass Gilbert, Joe Cruz and others are touring on straight up Pugsleys so the geo is more than adequate for touring.

Blog | While Out Riding | Dirt road cycling adventures across the Americas


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## syntheticreality (Jan 15, 2013)

I built up two front suspended custom krampugs for this purpose for my fiancé and I. PM me if you have any specific questions.


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## Clydesdale Clint (Sep 6, 2013)

The ECR is a niche of a niche of a niche bike that has problems if you ever wanted to run anything other than a 29x3 on it. Low BB defines the bike and then hamstrings it in that way. 

Take your Mukluk and run 29x3s on it... Stretch the alternator mount out all the way if it's a newer one and lengthen the wheelbase for touring.


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## OfficerFriendly (Apr 16, 2014)

Thanks Syntheticreality! I got the ECR a couple of weeks ago, just finished building it up!! Will post pics if anyone's interested? xD


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## Spinymouse (Jul 11, 2010)

Of course we're interested. :yesnod:

There are more than a few bike pron addicts lurking around here, just waiting for more bike pictures.

(Kinda creepy, actually.)


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## flatfendershop (Jan 7, 2012)

OfficerFriendly said:


> Will post pics if anyone's interested? xD


Its been four hours! Where are those pics? (sarcasm)

I'm an ECR fan and would like to go that route someday. I have an Ogre built for long touring right now that fits the need for the time being.


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

I dont envy you the price of tires nor my current perception of their wear rate on the tarmac.
I went for an Ogre before the ECR was available and think I'd make the same choice again.
Love the Krampus and ECR but I think as I can have only one bike at a time due to storage issue, my Ogre is the one for me.

Now where are those pics?
Cant wait to see your new pride and joy.:thumbsup:


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

rifraf said:


> I dont envy you the price of tires nor my current perception of their wear rate on the tarmac.
> I went for an Ogre before the ECR was available and think I'd make the same choice again.


+1 - I wouldn't want to ride Knards on pavement for hundreds/thousands of KMs. It would be a waste of $$.

gypsy by trade | Ridin' bikes and travelin' light.

Nick over at Gypsy by Trade is doing a multi-month European mostly dirt tour on a Krampus with "normal" 29er rubber. That way he can resupply tires as needed at a LBS along the route.

When he's back home I suspect you'll see Knards back on the bike.

You aren't restricted to just 29+ tires.


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## seedub (Nov 16, 2005)

... on the other hand,

Surly ECR: Bike Touring 1,000 KM Impressions - Pedaling Nowhere


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

seedub said:


> ... on the other hand,
> 
> Surly ECR: Bike Touring 1,000 KM Impressions - Pedaling Nowhere


Some people have blown apart Knards on a handful of rides. Others like the link above have had good durability results.

I'm running 120TPI Knards and mine have done pretty well in some tough conditions. I've also done 100kms+ on pavement on tour with my Knards and I thought they did really well for a MTB tire.

I just wanted Rifraf to consider that running 29+ tires was not mandatory.


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## ECR (Sep 25, 2013)

seedub said:


> ... on the other hand,
> 
> Surly ECR: Bike Touring 1,000 KM Impressions - Pedaling Nowhere


"I could have rolled these tires for a lifespan of maybe 8,500 kilometers. To me that's pretty impressive, and surprising. I carried a spare on this trip thinking that I may either suffer a sidewall tear or they would just wear out; I'll be leaving that spare at home next time...The Knards completely absorbed the egg-sized rocks that seem to be strewn all over these tracks. They simply barrel over almost anything without consequence."

Surly Knard Review, Velocity Blunt 35 Touring Wheel - Pedaling Nowhere


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## OfficerFriendly (Apr 16, 2014)

OfficerFriendly does apologise, just finished building it up! And you guys, it is AWESOME. You really can barrel over anything and anyone. The wheels are custom, build them up by hand myself, front is a Dynamo hooked up to a 90 lux (very weak apparently according to LBS) and usb (going to mount one of those block speakers on the front rack - rock out while I ride. god I love music so much and this is like a dream come true). Both rims are Kris Holm Unicycles, put reflective rim tape in but not sure about the colour. Got a Topeak rear explorer with ww2 military issue bags mounted and on the right side, my lowepro backpack which fits on perfectly, no modding required. On the front is a bontrager deluxe rack, cost £30 as opposed to the £90 Surly Nice's, tried to bend to get it to fit, ended up up snapping off the end bit, fit's perfectley now, mounted in different places to the fork, with various bits, it's ****ing rock solid. Light mounts on perfectly. Got 3 BBB Fuel Tank XL cages, one in the frame center (but prevents me from having a frame bag!!) and two on the forks which also fit absolutely perfectly. Doesn't really affect the handling much. I get ridiculously thirsty is why, like ridiculously thirsty and that's when I'm not riding :S. Got another bottle cage under the downtube, for a gas canister for the future portable stove...have yet to get one yet! Hope M4 front brake and M4 Mini rear. Brooks B67 Saddle. Custom made rear mudguard from old air conditioner bit, not even joking. Nukeproof stem which looks badass as ****. Hope headset. Shimano XTR cranks, painted them really badly with those big cans of paint to give it that rugged look, mission accomplished! Straightline defacto pedals, which are awesome but I'm going to change, they just look too flashy and not rugged enough. Maybe some Burgtecs once I get the moneyssss... Running single speed, and it's great, tried gears but man I'm addicted to that stiff, rock solid feel of a good ol SS drivetrain. And if I have gears, I'm always wondering which gear is best, which one I should be in, efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. Where as on single speed, I just ride the damn bike, and I enjoy it at that. And like Alastair Humprey loves to say, it makes things more difficult, which equates to more fun! But the problem I have with it is that it feels quite sluggish, and it's a heck of a lot of work to pedal. Any advice on fixing that? And I'm really proud of this bike. I'm 16 (to put it into scale for you) and I earned every penny that went into it! Here's to the great adventures to come


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## flatfendershop (Jan 7, 2012)

Well done Officer! You've turned this bike into what it was designed to be - a utilitarian work horse without a lot of fuss over matching components and other fluff (way to go spray painting the crank!) Glad you've got it set up the way you like it.

Kudos to you for being 16 and paying for it all yourself - you're on your way.


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## ChristianCoté (Jul 13, 2014)

I like your component decisions, Officer, that front end in particular is serious.


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## Trower (Apr 27, 2009)

Nice looking ride! Really makes me want an ECR even more.........temptation;P


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## icecreamjay (Apr 13, 2004)

Officer friendly, in response to the bike feeling a bit sluggish, your seat looks low. Your pedaling will be more efficient with it set higher. Might make it feel a bit quicker. You probably already know this but I figured is throw it out there. 

Awesome bike by the way.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

OfficerFriendly said:


> But the problem I have with it is that it feels quite sluggish, and it's a heck of a lot of work to pedal. Any advice on fixing that?


I hate sluggish bikes.

The three things I look at when this topic comes up are:

1. overly stiff frame vs. rider weight/power and load

2. stiff casing tires and excessive tread for the application

3. overall bike weight

Icecreamjay's point about the appropriate riding position is another one that I can quickly rule out about my own bikes, but something worth looking into if you aren't confident the bar/saddle/BB position is optimized already.

I run the 120tpi Knards and they roll pretty well on pavement considering they are a MTB tire. The other two items above are quite personal and are measured relative to your weight and power.

A frame/build that works fine for me at 185lbs and average power could feel like a tank for my 120lbs low power GF.

This also depends a lot on what your expectations are. What are the points of comparison that make you feel the ECR is sluggish?

The ECR is a touring rig so unloaded it wouldn't be unexpected that it doesn't feel as responsive as a bike designed for unloaded riding.

FWIW - I just switched from a Surly LHT to a Straggler because the LHT rode like a tank unloaded and that didn't make me happy.


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## OfficerFriendly (Apr 16, 2014)

flatfendershop said:


> Well done Officer! You've turned this bike into what it was designed to be - a utilitarian work horse without a lot of fuss over matching components and other fluff (way to go spray painting the crank!) Glad you've got it set up the way you like it.
> 
> Kudos to you for being 16 and paying for it all yourself - you're on your way.


Thank you! It's perfect, exactly what I wanted - that's why I love building them up from scratch 



Trower said:


> Nice looking ride! Really makes me want an ECR even more.........temptation;P


Thank you! I wouldn't get one personally, the frameset is an absolute rip off at £650 for standard chromoly...Maybe look at the geometry of the On Ones, they are incredibly priced and rock solid - so I've heard!



icecreamjay said:


> Officer friendly, in response to the bike feeling a bit sluggish, your seat looks low. Your pedaling will be more efficient with it set higher. Might make it feel a bit quicker. You probably already know this but I figured is throw it out there.
> 
> Awesome bike by the way.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll try it a bit higher, I am 5"4 and the bike is a medium, hence why I have the seat so low! But I'll try it moving it up slightly! Thank you 



vikb said:


> I hate sluggish bikes.
> 
> The three things I look at when this topic comes up are:
> 
> ...


Me too! They're horrible... My Mukluk with a 3kg chromoly rack on the back was unbearable, I couldn't imagine how it would be if I actually put anything in it! The ECR on the otherhand, you barely notice the weight of the cargo. Well I'm 5"4 and pretty dang light, I don't eat much (I have issues), at 45 odd kg, and I'm quite out of shape, but it's nothing a bit of motivation won't fix! Well, when I say sluggish I mean it's not exactly very fast to pedal and doesn't so much glide across the road, it's more like it's being dragged. Unlike the Mukluk, which is a breeze and literally glides, but not with any cargo! I've got the 72tpi Knards, and I doubt there's much difference in that, do you think the sluggishness is fixable? Don't say no!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

OfficerFriendly said:


> Well, when I say sluggish I mean it's not exactly very fast to pedal and doesn't so much glide across the road, it's more like it's being dragged. Unlike the Mukluk, which is a breeze and literally glides, but not with any cargo! I've got the 72tpi Knards, and I doubt there's much difference in that, do you think the sluggishness is fixable? Don't say no!


If you've got 27 TPI Knards get some 120tpi Knards and set them up tubeless. That will be as low rolling resistance as you can get at the moment with 29+ tires.

Do some test rides on a flat road. Weight really doesn't matter there. So you can eliminate the bike just being heavy. See what you think.

Make sure it isn't something obvious like your disc brakes dragging.

If you are 45kg you may be on a bike that's too stiff for you, but nobody can diagnose that for you over the internet.


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## OfficerFriendly (Apr 16, 2014)

vikb said:


> If you've got 27 TPI Knards get some 120tpi Knards and set them up tubeless. That will be as low rolling resistance as you can get at the moment with 29+ tires.
> 
> Do some test rides on a flat road. Weight really doesn't matter there. So you can eliminate the bike just being heavy. See what you think.
> 
> ...


Is basically what you're saying getting the rotational weight as low as possible? and yeah I meant 27, not 72! Good idea on testing what makes a difference, I'll try it. And I don't think so! And when you say stiff, what do you mean? I can take it down to the guys at my LBS and ask them if needs be, they're very helpful!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

OfficerFriendly said:


> Is basically what you're saying getting the rotational weight as low as possible? and yeah I meant 27, not 72! Good idea on testing what makes a difference, I'll try it. And I don't think so! And when you say stiff, what do you mean? I can take it down to the guys at my LBS and ask them if needs be, they're very helpful!


No. I'm not worried about rotational weight [within reason]. I care about rolling resistance which costs you energy every pedal stroke. Stiff tires and tubes both suck your energy which is why I suggested 120tpi tires and going tubeless. The fact they will both make your wheels lighter is just bonus.

A stiff bike and a lighter less powerful rider usually ends up feeling dead/sluggish. It's the difference between a bike that surges forward with each pedal stroke and one that seems to absorb your energy without moving the speed up as much as it should. There is no easy way to measure this, but if you compare bikes with similar components you can feel right away which ones respond well to your pedal strokes.

Lighter riders are most affected by stiff frames because as triangles get smaller the frame gets stiffer and combined with lighter typically less powerful riders the problem is exacerbated.

I'm 185lbs without clothes and my 58cm LHT was too stiff to enjoy riding unloaded so I got a 58cm Straggler which is much better.

If you bought the ECR to tour on load it up and see what you think. You may find it rides better loaded since that extra weight will help flex the bike as you pedal.


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## OfficerFriendly (Apr 16, 2014)

vikb said:


> No. I'm not worried about rotational weight [within reason]. I care about rolling resistance which costs you energy every pedal stroke. Stiff tires and tubes both suck your energy which is why I suggested 120tpi tires and going tubeless. The fact they will both make your wheels lighter is just bonus.
> 
> A stiff bike and a lighter less powerful rider usually ends up feeling dead/sluggish. It's the difference between a bike that surges forward with each pedal stroke and one that seems to absorb your energy without moving the speed up as much as it should. There is no easy way to measure this, but if you compare bikes with similar components you can feel right away which ones respond well to your pedal strokes.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply  I'm pretty much skint now, after another bike (Cove STD Freeride bike if anyone's wondering, it's the bomb!) so won't be able to afford those 120tpi's any time soon...I haven't gone tubeless yet though, I'll do that shall I?

You described it amazingly perfectly!


> It's the difference between a bike that surges forward with each pedal stroke and one that seems to absorb your energy without moving the speed up as much as it should.


It does literally exactly as you said, it absorbs all my energy and doesn't even move much! Yup of course I built the ECR to tour on! I'll give it a go thanks


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

OfficerFriendly said:


> Thanks for your reply  I'm pretty much skint now, after another bike (Cove STD Freeride bike if anyone's wondering, it's the bomb!) so won't be able to afford those 120tpi's any time soon...I haven't gone tubeless yet though, I'll do that shall I?
> 
> You described it amazingly perfectly!
> 
> It does literally exactly as you said, it absorbs all my energy and doesn't even move much! Yup of course I built the ECR to tour on! I'll give it a go thanks


I'd try tubeless. It's cheap and has other benefits even if the ride effort level doesn't change much. Also don't over inflate your tires or you won't get any benefit from the tubeless conversion.

I've been through the whole over built [for my weight/power] bike thing and spent lots of time and $$ experimenting so I totally understand where you are coming from.

Even at 185lbs and average male cyclist power levels I now avoid any bikes designed for touring because that's bike industry code for over built and stiff. Keep in mind my idea of touring is lightweight bikepacking and I want the bike to perform unloaded.

If you throw 80lbs of gear and water on a bike you need a stiff frame to handle the load. So it's all about matching the bike to your body, gear and expectations.

Going from the LHT to the Straggler I'd still prefer a more flexible frame, but that would require spending a lot of $$ and the Straggler meets a good performance to cost ratio for me.

What matters is what you feel in the saddle and if you are smiling when you are turning the cranks. So I'm not suggesting what I like and what works for me is "the ultimate" solution for everyone.


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

vikb said:


> I just wanted Rifraf to consider that running 29+ tires was not mandatory.


A good point and well worth considering:thumbsup:

Gotta admit to being a little lazy when it comes to changing tires.
I bought some 2.35 Big Apples for local neighbourhood riding, some 2 inch Marathon Supremes for tarmac touring and some Mondials for multi surface touring.
I chucked the 2 inch Mondials on back around April and there they've remained.


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## ChristianCoté (Jul 13, 2014)

Oh Schwalbe, the only thing I don't love about you is that you make me choose.


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## OfficerFriendly (Apr 16, 2014)

vikb said:


> I'd try tubeless. It's cheap and has other benefits even if the ride effort level doesn't change much. Also don't over inflate your tires or you won't get any benefit from the tubeless conversion.
> 
> I've been through the whole over built [for my weight/power] bike thing and spent lots of time and $$ experimenting so I totally understand where you are coming from.
> 
> ...


Thanks, when I get some cash I'll give it a go. I actually went and talked to the guys at my LBS and they said the only sealant that I can use for tubeless is stans? Surely this can't be true. Someone reccomended me some pure latex some time ago and advised I create a ghetto sealant mix. I mean I'm sure as hell not paying £16 for a tiny bottle of sealant :S It just sounds like such a ripoff :S What do you use? Also, I've just come across your blog, it's very interesting, much like Nicholas' (Gypsy by Trade) and I think you've got another reader! Will deff have to spend a few hours on it!  I think I may have solved the sluggishness problem (a bit). I took it to a bike shop, and the guy there said because I have a bit of extra weight on it, the tyres are at too low a psi and the wheels are just dragging. To which he stated that if I put a couple of quid in the charity jar he'd help me out, and so we pumped up the tyres and woah, it's way, way faster!!! I mean I feel a lot more bumps and sometimes I'm like ZZZZZZ with my head bobbing, but I guess I just need to find that perfect psi. I always thought it was silly how people would discuss tyre pressure in exact psi but I kinda get it now. Thanks for your advice Vik  It's much appreciated! I do love riding my ECR but on single speed it's hard ass work. Like really hard work. I found that apparently I use a bigger gear ratio than most 36/17 but I like it 



rifraf said:


> A good point and well worth considering:thumbsup:
> 
> Gotta admit to being a little lazy when it comes to changing tires.
> I bought some 2.35 Big Apples for local neighbourhood riding, some 2 inch Marathon Supremes for tarmac touring and some Mondials for multi surface touring.
> I chucked the 2 inch Mondials on back around April and there they've remained.


You think I should try some like normal 29er tyres then? I mean I could give it a go! My ECR is a frigging beast of a machine though, I can't imagine how it would handle with tiny skinny tyres :S The picture in my head ain't a pretty one!


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

OfficerFriendly said:


> You think I should try some like normal 29er tyres then? I mean I could give it a go! My ECR is a frigging beast of a machine though, I can't imagine how it would handle with tiny skinny tyres :S The picture in my head ain't a pretty one!


G'day OfficerFriendly,
No suggestion from me.
Just responding to Vic's post about the ECR's ability to run tire sizes other than 3.00".
I'm new to the 29ers having rode a small wheeled full suspension Moulton APB for about 20 years.
I now ride an Ogre.
I did find 2.00 inch tires much easier to pedal than my initial 2.35's although I was miffed as the bike looks so much better with the bigger tires.
I'm looking at a tour soon of some months duration.
Initially there is a lot of off road, so I'm considering buying some 2.30 folding Exiwolf tires I've found cheap locally. 
I'd look at posting them home after the off road section of the tour is complete where I can have them posted back onwards to me should the need arise.
I'd then look at the longer tarmac stretch of my planned tour utilising some of my lighter 2.00' tires.
Just my thinking on the subject currently with nothing cast in stone just yet.


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