# Whatever happened to Suntour?



## Ricksom (Feb 2, 2004)

They created all sorts of innovations in the early to mid '90s, and had a complete line of components.

What killed them during the prime of mountain biking??


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## mwr (Jul 17, 2004)

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/page35.htm


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## 82Sidewinder (Jun 28, 2006)

Suntour's rise and fall is very well documented in the link above. In a nutshell, it was index shifting that cost them their share of the cycling market and caused their downfall. Shimano got their SIS system out ahead of Suntour, and more importantly, it worked! Suntour's first year indexing system was plagued with problems and manufacturers didn't give them a second chance. Shimano then went on to become the Microsoft of the bicycle industry,


Craig


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## robinmiller (May 31, 2005)

> Shimano then went on to become the Microsoft of the bicycle industry


In all fairness, Shimano's products a.) worked, and b.) were actually better than their competitors', so the analogy is a bit flawed.


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## 82Sidewinder (Jun 28, 2006)

robinmiller said:


> In all fairness, Shimano's products a.) worked, and b.) were actually better than their competitors', so the analogy is a bit flawed.


True. Shimano's products do work, unlike Microsoft, which introduces new programs and patches to fix old problems and creates new problems in the process. However, in terms of their grip on the bicycle market, Shimano is very much like Microsoft.

Cheers.

Craig


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## djmuff (Sep 8, 2004)

Ricksom said:


> They created all sorts of innovations in the early to mid '90s, and had a complete line of components.
> 
> What killed them during the prime of mountain biking??


I thought they disappeared because they kept introducing smaller and smaller components, i.e. micro-micro drive, and so forth. I could be wrong though.


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## mwr (Jul 17, 2004)

djmuff said:


> I thought they disappeared because they kept introducing smaller and smaller components, i.e. micro-micro drive, and so forth. I could be wrong though.


So Suntour is still around, we just can't see them.


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## djmuff (Sep 8, 2004)

mwr said:


> So Suntour is still around, we just can't see them.


Exactly! I think sometimes if you squint really hard, you can catch a glimpse.

And that article is amazing. Really good read, definitely a sad story.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

An excellent article! But, the nutshell version is, the floating upper pulley patent. By allowing the upper pulley to float a smidge from side to side, it allowed Shimanos indexing to be not quite spot on, yet remain quiet. SunTour needed to be exactly right, to be quiet. Add in a bent der hanmger from some good old off roading, it just got worse. That, or yeah, we need a microscope to see 'em


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## First Flight (Jan 25, 2004)

http://www.srsuntour-cycling.com/SID=sid8fd185a4a70c45664d3bc8e84b9db/index.php
for the current offerings. The cranks, front derailleurs and shocks can be found on some major manufacturing offerings. They also offered a derailleur that would work with Shimano or SRAM depending on how you routed the cable.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

First Flight said:


> http://www.srsuntour-cycling.com/SID=sid8fd185a4a70c45664d3bc8e84b9db/index.php


Does the company listed here have anything to do with the original company (as compared to what passes for Schwinn today)?

Penguin


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

pinguwin said:


> Does the company listed here have anything to do with the original company (as compared to what passes for Schwinn today)?
> 
> Penguin


Yes kinda sorta - Daisuke Kobayashi who brought SR Suntour to Taiwan and is still running the show there. FWIW, Darrell "Big Bunny" Voss of Klein fame is running the US office.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mwr said:


> So Suntour is still around, we just can't see them.


Most single speeds run Suntour derailleurs due to their light weight and small size.


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## djmuff (Sep 8, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Most single speeds run Suntour derailleurs due to their light weight and small size.


Track bikes run full suntour gruppos, the new nano-nano drive (not to be confused with nanu-nanu drive, which powered Mork's egg).


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## djmuff (Sep 8, 2004)

this thread needs some companion photos to go along with the excellent history. Post any suntour photos you have. Here's some from me, some XC Pro shots from one of my new bikes (will post it eventually), and then some older stuff that was lying around.


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## djmuff (Sep 8, 2004)

Check this out- did Suntour spell "spirit" wrong below, or did they really name those parts "spirt."


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

Ooo, 1992 Paramount Series 90
Silver brazed goodness covered in "blue velvet gas" paint


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

My first year that I worked in the bike industry was 1995 (I was a mechanic from 1995-2003) and I remember Kona offering their bikes with Rapid Fire+, Grip Shift, or SUNTOUR XC Pro thumbshifters. They must have had a back stock of 2004 product!


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## djmuff (Sep 8, 2004)

Shayne said:


> Ooo, 1992 Paramount Series 90
> Silver brazed goodness covered in "blue velvet gas" paint


hush.

but yes. and now back to Suntour.


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## J Ro (Jan 13, 2004)

robinmiller said:


> In all fairness, Shimano's products a.) worked, and b.) were actually better than their competitors', so the analogy is a bit flawed.


Not everything was better. Shimano never made a flat pedal that came close to the Suntour offerings. Also in personal opinion Suntour stuff was 1) lighter 2) easier to set up 3) looked better


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

pictures?


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## rollercam (Mar 25, 2005)

I thought I would add some pictures to the illustrated guide to suntour

3pulley arx derailleurs that need some tlc. in case you can'y count it is written right on the cage!









mountain tech









microlite aluminum body and cog freewheel









finally a winner


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

I know the whereabouts of a number of NOS Suntour ARX road triples and am really thinking about picking them up to use for some future projects.

I have always been a huge fan of Suntour and my older road bikes still run Suntour groups as they are quite simply, excellent parts.

One of their biggest problems was they sold some really high end stuff at a price that made people think it was a cheaper product.

My Kuwahara SS just became a 1 by 3 and the shifting duties are being handled to perfection by a Suntour AR road derailleur. It's connected to a Deore thumbie and works flawlessly with the indexed shifter.


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## RAPIT (Oct 2, 2005)

robinmiller said:


> In all fairness, Shimano's products a.) worked, and b.) were actually better than their competitors', so the analogy is a bit flawed.


Ever tried a Mac?

Ever had a virus?


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## mishap (Jan 27, 2007)

RAPIT said:


> Ever tried a Mac?
> 
> Ever had a virus?


Intel Mac + Windows = viruses can hit one just as easily. A more accurate statement would be OSX = no viruses. Unfortunately, it's not the most apt analogy since Mac/OSX still only comprises a very small percentage of computers out there and virus propagation is more in line w/ OS adoption than true security of a given system. Given most new viruses are written for 95/2000/XP, I could probably run a DOS/Win 3.1 system w/ a small probability of getting infected. The first documented virus was a UNIX one...something that OSX is based on.

It'd be like saying just b/c only 5 people in the world have ever snapped a Klein Adroit, the Klein Adroit is the strongest bike in the world.

Shimano for all of its marketing power and big business strong arm tactics still has to deal w/ SRAM which is becoming quite big on its own. Suntour just fell to the wayside as an inferior competitor. Let's hope this time around they can find their niche and keep the industry innovating.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

mishap said:


> just b/c only 5 people in the world have ever snapped a Klein Adroit, the Klein Adroit is the strongest bike in the world.


While not an adroit, the bikes are the same in the area where the issue has arisen. As always in this forum, show pictures.

'Guin


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

mishap said:


> It'd be like saying just b/c only 5 people in the world have ever snapped a Klein Adroit, the Klein Adroit is the strongest bike in the world.


That sounds like something Gary Klein would say, to which I'd counter that Yeti's founder was once heard to utter "we only got three frames back last year broken, including the one with the fork lift tracks on the box".


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

Suntour's product was always very good and for many decades they kicked Shimano's behind in the upper end markets and their high end stuff is on a par with the best components ever made.

Shimano was a giant corporation that had many interests besides bicycle components so were better able to adapt and survive changes in the global market and had a massive R&D department compared to Suntour.

SRAM is a conglomerate of many smaller companies (like SACHS and Huret) that both Shimano and Suntour pushed to the edges of solvency... in the 70's and eighties these two companies really dominated a good deal of the bicycle market.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Shimano was also quite willing to ignore patents by other brands and blatantly rip designs in order to shortcut getting ahead without doing R&D. This is how they got the money they needed to take over the industry. Shimano would take a design like the slant-parallelogram design for derailleurs (which is what reliable indexed shifting is dependant on) and which suntour had invented and held the patent for, then make cheap copies of it before the patent ran out. They stole designs from DiaCompe also, and both they and suntour took shimano to court, won, and well, japanese courts don't slap the punitive damages for losing patent suits like US courts did.


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## karlos (Apr 11, 2007)

*More SunTour pics*

Here are some shots of XC-Pro parts on my Shimano-free Soma Groove.


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## Lloyd395 (Dec 14, 2004)

Good Call D8... Yeah they ignored a lot and got away with it.


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## 993rs (Dec 31, 2005)

Love my Suntour stuff, XC Pro with grease guard, thumb shifters, doesn't get any better. Just built a parts bike for my 13 year old, Suntour SL/Shim.XT mix. Brought the bike to a LBS to have them cable it up, they said it wouldn't work.


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## VenomousDuck (May 9, 2007)

So, I see that Suntour is now on Mongoose bikes... like the Teocali and the Otero. I really like Mongoose, but Is the product any good? Is it going to be reliable?


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## thecrazyfinn (Apr 7, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> Shimano was also quite willing to ignore patents by other brands and blatantly rip designs in order to shortcut getting ahead without doing R&D. This is how they got the money they needed to take over the industry. Shimano would take a design like the slant-parallelogram design for derailleurs (which is what reliable indexed shifting is dependant on) and which suntour had invented and held the patent for, then make cheap copies of it before the patent ran out. They stole designs from DiaCompe also, and both they and suntour took shimano to court, won, and well, japanese courts don't slap the punitive damages for losing patent suits like US courts did.


Except that in the case of the slant parallelogram rear derailleur, Suntour's patent ran out in '84 and Shimano introduced their version (with Dura-Ace SIS) in '85.


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## robinmiller (May 31, 2005)

RAPIT said:


> Ever tried a Mac?
> 
> Ever had a virus?


Not sure your point. I use a Mac, and I love it. I _have_ had a virus, that was about 10 years ago on the old 'Classic' MacOS system.


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

My favourite mix of Suntour and Shimano are the Suntour (friction) shifters and a '96 Dura Ace rear derailleur on my mid 80's Bianchi road bike.

I'd still be happier if I came across a Suntour Cyclone rear derailleur since they rocked.


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