# Why emtbs are problematic... the future



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

If you still don't understand why emtbs should not be considered a bicycle then here you go. The below link is the future of where emtbs are going in America, the land of bigger, faster and more power. These things make the turbo Levo and hai bikes look like jokes.

80km top speed, 80 km range and 2 hour charge time.

Stealth B-52 E-bike | Stealth Electric Bikes

Stealth | The Fastest Electric Bikes on Earth

This IS the future of embts and there is nothing that can be done to stop it. They will be as powerful as motorcycles soon. How can one possibly call ebikes a bicycle after seeing what they are turning into?


----------



## buell (Oct 15, 2015)

don't fool yourself into thinking every joe schmoe is going to spend $10k+ on an ebike. yes, there will be fools riding these on trails giving the responsible ones a bad name. but not everybody has that sort of liquid disposable cash to throw at an ebike.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

buell said:


> don't fool yourself into thinking every joe schmoe is going to spend $10k+ on an ebike. yes, there will be fools riding these on trails giving the responsible ones a bad name. but not everybody has that sort of liquid disposable cash to throw at an ebike.


 One bad apple to spoil the bunch and get the trail shut down to all wheeled users.


----------



## buell (Oct 15, 2015)

leeboh said:


> One bad apple to spoil the bunch and get the trail shut down to all wheeled users.


i agree. and it's inevitable.


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

buell said:


> don't fool yourself into thinking every joe schmoe is going to spend $10k+ on an ebike. yes, there will be fools riding these on trails giving the responsible ones a bad name. but not everybody has that sort of liquid disposable cash to throw at an ebike.


You don't get it. Why do you think I said "the future"? Obviously you have know idea how technology works. These are expensive today, but they will come down in price quickly and this is what affordable embts will look like. More power, more speed. That's what we do here in America.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

buell said:


> i agree. and it's inevitable.


See my sig.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

singletrackmack said:


> You don't get it. Why do you think I said "the future"? Obviously you have know idea how technology works. These are expensive today, but they will come down in price quickly and this is what affordable embts will look like. More power, more speed. That's what we do here in America.


You can already buy Chinese clones for half that, but it's not like you need a 10kw ebike to make problems. I could see these style of bikes appealing to moto guys who don't know mtbs since they look like what they are used to, but if you wanted a fast emtb, just slap a 3-6kw kit on an old DH bike and you'd have way more power than you need on a chassis that is beter suited to singletrack riding. I'd expect to see more of those sorts of bikes than Stealths.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

It's not looking good is it?


----------



## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

leeboh said:


> One bad apple to spoil the bunch and get the trail shut down to all wheeled users.


There's already plenty of bad apples on standard mtbs that can cause trail access to be revoked.

I don't care much for e-mtbs and it does more easily enable jackass behaviour which is concerning. But really the arguments are the same that hikers use against us. Using a mechanical device to augment human output. This results in more trail damage and and danger to others as speed increases.

Trails around here have a 15mph speed limit. That's quite easy to surpass on a standard mtb especially when pointed downhill. But quite difficult for a trail runner to exceed for any prolonged period. Hence why there is already a dislike towards mtbers. It'd be quite interesting if any of the trail rules were actually enforced.


----------



## buell (Oct 15, 2015)

Mr Pig said:


> It's not looking good is it?


nope.

i'm a moto guy that does more mtb now. i live in a city and it's logistically difficult to go dirt biking, if for no other reason because the nearest OHV areas are at least an hour away. i've been tempted lately to build an overpowered e-bike with a mid-drive conversion kit so that i can go riding on my local trails. i'm potentially the "bad apple" here. but when faced with the choice of spending multiple thousands of dollars on an ebike, i'd rather spend that money on a dirt bike and/or dirt bike parts.

the <1kw mid-drive kits are affordable but won't give me the kind of power i want. the >1kw mid-drive kits will probably always be expensive, if for no other reason that even when technology advances and drives prices down, the market for them will always be small. the majority of e-bikes, for road or mountain, will be <1kw. yes, that's enough to cause problems, but not enough to meet the power requirements a dirt biker expects coming from motorcycles.


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

singletrackmack said:


> You don't get it. Why do you think I said "the future"? Obviously you have know idea how technology works. These are expensive today, but they will come down in price quickly and this is what affordable embts will look like. More power, more speed. That's what we do here in America.


Yes, because the price of bikes is consistently coming down and becoming cheap like the flat screen TV.

Remind me what happened when the price of electric hoverboards came down....


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

ghoti said:


> There's already plenty of bad apples on standard mtbs that can cause trail access to be revoked.
> 
> I don't care much for e-mtbs and it does more easily enable jackass behaviour which is concerning. But really the arguments are the same that hikers use against us. Using a mechanical device to augment human output. This results in more trail damage and and danger to others as speed increases.
> 
> Trails around here have a 15mph speed limit. That's quite easy to surpass on a standard mtb especially when pointed downhill. But quite difficult for a trail runner to exceed for any prolonged period. Hence why there is already a dislike towards mtbers. It'd be quite interesting if any of the trail rules were actually enforced.


I'm a trail runner and a mountain biker. I live 2 miles form a National Forest with trails in a major metropolitan area. I'm on these trails 2-4 days a week. I've come across one guy who expressed that he was not happy with mountain bikers being allowed there. His reason? Because the parking lot was never full before they were allowed according to him. The ironic thing is that when I run, I drive there and park (it's actually on my way to work). When I mountain bike, I almost always ride from home.

I pointed out that the National Battlefield Parks in our area, which do not allow mountain bikes, had almost all greatly expanded their parking lots in the last five or so years to accommodate the demand.


----------



## NIMROD23 (Jul 11, 2017)

I think there are some massive differences between those jokes of engineering and genuine electric pedal assist mountain bikes speed limited to 20mph.


----------



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

NIMROD23 said:


> I think there are some massive differences between those jokes of engineering and genuine electric pedal assist mountain bikes speed limited to 20mph.


and those are?


----------



## NIMROD23 (Jul 11, 2017)

Top speed, voltage supplied, power delivery, throttle application, torque figures, weight, responsible ownership design, warranted use parameters in the software supplied and the level of maturity that each bike is aimed at in the market place


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Lemonaid said:


> and those are?


Pedal assist and 20mph speed limit........


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Pedal-assist can easily be added to any motorcycle, and speed limiters can often be modified or removed. Then what's different?


----------



## NIMROD23 (Jul 11, 2017)

Warranty is voided if speed limits are modified and on such expensive genuine pedal assist mountain bikes thats a massive deterrent for the responsible owner


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

NIMROD23 said:


> Warranty is voided if speed limits are modified and on such expensive genuine pedal assist mountain bikes thats a massive deterrent for the responsible owner


I don't think responsible owners are the problem here....

Same with Pedal Bikes, it is the irresponsible guys that cause the issues. Building Dirt Jump Tracks on Private Land, modifying existing trails to be harder or easier than what the trail builders and land managers designed and implemented, Building new trails without the permission or in accordance with the Land Managers.

So too with eBikes, the Problem causers are going to be the guys modifying their bikes to be much more than 250W, or riding them well over the posted trail speed limits and causing issues with other trail users.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Every time a new user joins it's the same thing over and over again. This sub-forum is malignant. Carry on.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

NIMROD23 said:


> Warranty is voided if speed limits are modified and on such expensive genuine pedal assist mountain bikes thats a massive deterrent for the responsible owner


Not as much as you think, especially since all it does is tell the computer your wheel is a different size than it actually is, changing the speedo. Take it off and all is well.

Just poke around here.

Speed Pedelecs (S-Pedelecs), Non-EAPCs & overseas | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community

There's dongle info on every ebike forum that I've been on.


----------



## NIMROD23 (Jul 11, 2017)

Sounds like the real problem here is immature people .... not legitimate e-mtb's


----------



## NIMROD23 (Jul 11, 2017)

Just remember you can't control what people will do, motors can be fitted to any bicycle out there and that's the individual's choice, e-mtb's are engineered as best as possible to meet industry standards.


----------



## BootneyLee (Apr 25, 2017)

Nevermind


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

life behind bars said:


> That's why emotorikes are being banned in increasingly more places.


Where?


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

I bought a Honda Xr70 for my son a few years ago for $900 bucks. This thing would be awesome if I could take it to my local bike trails and rip **** up....but I don't because I don't want to be be a dick amongst other reasons. I assume that's the main reason, other than fines and dirty looks why most people who own cheap dirtbikes don't terrorize MTB trails typically. 

These stealth bomber bikes basically look like dirtbikes and users can't get away with using them on MTB trails the same way a Turbo Levo can glide past ranger Rick. 

I'm in the camp of there's probably not much we need to worry about in regards to these bikes.


----------



## Xaero (Mar 18, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> Pedal assist and 20mph speed limit........


How fast does your Demo with a 3k motor go?


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

? 
He doesn't have one, he's an old guy on a efat bike.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Harryman said:


> ?
> He doesn't have one, he's an old guy on a efat bike.


Sounds legit.


----------



## Ricisan (Aug 30, 2006)

Why wait for the future? 
Start banning everything that has the potential to be a problem down the road.
Whatever happened to freedom of choice and Personal Responsibility?

R


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Ricisan said:


> Why wait for the future?
> Start banning everything that has the potential to be a problem down the road.
> Whatever happened to freedom of choice and Personal Responsibility?
> 
> R


Just look to the whole drone/quadracopter "revolution", at first there were no real laws governing them, then people started flying them everywhere, into actual commercail air space, over private land, etc. SO the FCC had to step in and start making some rules.

Just 2 weeks ago there was a fire on Camp Pendalton in North San Diego and on the news the reporters were relaying a message from the emergency personnel to stop flying the things where they are trying to put the fire out....

Freedom of Choice and Personal Responsibility is a pipe dream.

Now eBikes are still a very niche item and probably will not become as popular as drones, but only time will really tell.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Ricisan said:


> Why wait for the future?
> Start banning everything that has the potential to be a problem down the road.
> Whatever happened to freedom of choice and Personal Responsibility?
> 
> R


When have we ever truly had freedom of choice? If your choices negatively impact other peoples' choices, why is yours more important than theirs? People have repeatedly proven that they are not responsible and capable of making good choices. Personal responsibility is long gone.


----------



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

The rights of the people > your individual right


----------



## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Lemonaid said:


> The rights of the people > your individual right


Let me rephrase this for you, YOUR rights are better than those of others.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

eFat said:


> Let me rephrase this for you, YOUR rights are better than those of others.


When individual rights are not in the best interests of the masses, yes.


----------



## kellyc (Apr 3, 2007)

First time poster in this forum. Like many, I'm becoming very interested in e-bikes, their capabilities and the new possibilities and types of rides they open up.

Honest question, a rider is out in the mountains, and uses an mtb. with electric pedal assist to put in a 100 mile day with over 20k in climbing on remote logging roads and singletrack. Doesn't see another trail user all day long. 

What's the issue here? What am I missing?


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

kellyc said:


> First time poster in this forum. Like many, I'm becoming very interested in e-bikes, their capabilities and the new possibilities and types of rides they open up.
> 
> Honest question, a rider is out in the mountains, and uses an mtb. with electric pedal assist to put in a 100 mile day with over 20k in climbing on remote logging roads and singletrack. Doesn't see another trail user all day long.
> 
> What's the issue here? What am I missing?


If you're lucky enough to be able to do that on legal trails, have at it. I'd be more concerned if riders started doing 10 laps of a 10 mile loop in a local park instead. More miles = more maintenance.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

kellyc said:


> First time poster in this forum. Like many, I'm becoming very interested in e-bikes, their capabilities and the new possibilities and types of rides they open up.
> 
> Honest question, a rider is out in the mountains, and uses an mtb. with electric pedal assist to put in a 100 mile day with over 20k in climbing on remote logging roads and singletrack. Doesn't see another trail user all day long.
> 
> What's the issue here? What am I missing?


Remote areas is where these need to really rip. 100 miles better pack some energizers though! Sounds like that ride would be a lot of fun. They are great for exploration and time crunch and if you want a faster pace.


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Using one of the typical manufactured e mtb's available currently in order to do what you want it would take 3 if not 4 or 5 batteries worth of charge which would equate to about 3000wh if you pedaled judiciously. You would have more fun doing that ride on a nice light bike than a super heavy, due to the battery weight, e one in other words.

Until a new battery chemistry is developed that has more capacity with lighter weight e bikes will never be long distance performance oriented machines.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Ricisan said:


> Whatever happened to freedom of choice and Personal Responsibility?


Freedom of choice is fine, right up until the point where you start using your freedom to impact on the freedoms of others.


----------



## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> Freedom of choice is fine, right up until the point where you start using your freedom to impact on the freedoms of others.


In which ways your freedoms are impacted?


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

eFat said:


> In which ways your freedoms are impacted?


The whole point of the comment I quoted was that ebikers should be free to do what they want and be trusted to act responsibly. Which all sounds very nice except that other trail users have rights too, like the right not to be hit by a high-speed eBike.

If you have two sets of people looking for conflicting freedoms they can't both win.


----------



## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> The whole point of the comment I quoted was that ebikers should be free to do what they want and be trusted to act responsibly. Which all sounds very nice except that other trail users have rights too, like the right not to be hit by a high-speed eBike.
> 
> If you have two sets of people looking for conflicting freedoms they can't both win.


I agree. But you should write "to be hit by high-speed bike" as there is no difference in this aspect. It's an issue of behaviour and not related to a motor.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

eFat said:


> I agree. But you should write "to be hit by high-speed bike" as there is no difference in this aspect. It's an issue of behaviour and not related to a motor.


I see your point but it comes back to the whole issue of electric powered bikes, the fact that they have the potential to go much faster than pedal bikes on certain trails. Sure, an idiot on a mountain bike can hit a hiker flying down a hill on a mixed trail at inappropriate speed but the same idiot on a powered bike can go faster in more places so the opportunity for conflict is higher.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

kellyc said:


> Honest question, a rider is out in the mountains, and uses an mtb. with electric pedal assist to put in a 100 mile day with over 20k in climbing on remote logging roads and singletrack. Doesn't see another trail user all day long.
> 
> What's the issue here? What am I missing?


I don't think anyone cares about logging roads because they're usually open to atv traffic anyway. There are relatively few places where you can ride all day and not see another trail user but there still are some, mostly because they are tough to get to. If the e-mtb market share remains forever where it is now there would be no issue but that's doubtful IMO.



eFat said:


> In which ways your freedoms are impacted?


Freedom to enjoy motor-free areas.



Lemonaid said:


> The rights of the people > your individual right


:thumbsup:


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Lemonaid said:


> The rights of the people > your individual right


It actually has little to do with rights, it really comes down to what the land manager deems an appropriate use. I can assure you that they hear variations on this endlessly: "Why can't I use (fill in the blank), to (fill in the blank), it's really fun and no one will mind. Muh freedoms!" On public lands, your "rights" to access and use are completely controled by the land manager, they can keep you out of certain areas if they want, and they can restrict any use if they deem it not a good fit.

Arguing over who has a right to do what is purely an internet exercise that has little bearing in the real world. They do however weigh the interests of an entire user group over that of an idividual. You can't develop managment plans for individuals.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Bigwheel said:


> Using one of the typical manufactured e mtb's available currently in order to do what you want it would take 3 if not 4 or 5 batteries worth of charge which would equate to about 3000wh if you pedaled judiciously. You would have more fun doing that ride on a nice light bike than a super heavy, due to the battery weight, e one in other words.
> 
> Until a new battery chemistry is developed that has more capacity with lighter weight e bikes will never be long distance performance oriented machines.


Yep! Totally agree with this. If you plan to trail ride no more than 20-30 miles, Emtb are awesome. Epics and bikepacking rides? Better bring your human powered rig.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

I'd like to point out that an easy & cheap speed limiter hack has been around since speed limits were imposed on electric bicycles. Works on 98% of all e-bikes. No need for dongles; etc.

Remove wheel speed sensor (or buy a second one) from frame/fork location (usually by rear wheel). Place former wheel speed sensor on frame where it "sees" the arc of the pedals. Mount (tape and/or epoxy) strong magnet to crank arm at a position to sweep past speed sensor.

Now the e-bike controller thinks your pedaling cadence is the wheel speed; normal humans will never be able to pedal at a high enough rpm to match limited rear wheel speed. Effectively no speed limiting at all.


----------



## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> I see your point but it comes back to the whole issue of electric powered bikes, the fact that they have the potential to go much faster than pedal bikes on certain trails. Sure, an idiot on a mountain bike can hit a hiker flying down a hill on a mixed trail at inappropriate speed but the same idiot on a powered bike can go faster in more places so the opportunity for conflict is higher.


Exactly Mr. Pig... and that is why ALL cars are strictly limited to a top speed of (insert the top posted speed limit of your state here), as in your world people have no self control but must be controlled by the "authorities" to maintain order. Obviously, the very few with the self restraint and judgement to drive/ride at safe and sane speeds as the conditions warrant regardless of the potential power of what they ride/drive, MUST have their rights impinged upon so that those with poorer judgement and self control can be reined in. I remember when there was a car called the "Corvette", and right out of the dealer showroom, unmodified, it could reach speeds well over 100 mph! Thank God for the government mandated speed controllers, that put an end to the carnage the 'vette drivers were causing in 25 MPH speed zones, and don't get me started about the school cross walks!

You of course were way ahead of the curve, and always drove a vehicle only capable of the posted speed limit. Carry on. Seriously, WTF? My frigging Prius can go well over 100, so what.... I use my common sense, no difference with bikes that I can see. The very fastest consistently I have ever gone on any of my ebikes is downhill, with no e power involved, and I'm sure I'm slow compared to you.

So.....when you haul ass downhill do you limit your speed based on conditions, or do you go flat out regardless of whoever and whatever is in the way? Or, are you some kind of special case that has the judgement to ride responsibly, unlike us ebikers??


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Exactly Mr. Pig... and that is why ALL cars are strictly limited to a top speed of (insert the top posted speed limit of your state here), as in your world people have no self control but must be controlled by the "authorities" to maintain order......


Are you suggesting that most people would drive at safe speeds without "authorities" to monitor them?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Exactly Mr. Pig... and that is why ALL cars are strictly limited to a top speed of (insert the top posted speed limit of your state here), as in your world people have no self control but must be controlled by the "authorities" to maintain order. Obviously, the very few with the self restraint and judgement to drive/ride at safe and sane speeds as the conditions warrant regardless of the potential power of what they ride/drive, MUST have their rights impinged upon so that those with poorer judgement and self control can be reined in. I remember when there was a car called the "Corvette", and right out of the dealer showroom, unmodified, it could reach speeds well over 100 mph! Thank God for the government mandated speed controllers, that put an end to the carnage the 'vette drivers were causing in 25 MPH speed zones, and don't get me started about the school cross walks!
> 
> You of course were way ahead of the curve, and always drove a vehicle only capable of the posted speed limit. Carry on. Seriously, WTF? My frigging Prius can go well over 100, so what.... I use my common sense, no difference with bikes that I can see. The very fastest consistently I have ever gone on any of my ebikes is downhill, with no e power involved, and I'm sure I'm slow compared to you.
> 
> So.....when you haul ass downhill do you limit your speed based on conditions, or do you go flat out regardless of whoever and whatever is in the way? Or, are you some kind of special case that has the judgement to ride responsibly, unlike us ebikers??


So based on this, I guess we should go ahead and allow full blown motorcycles on mountain bike trails, right?


----------



## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Are you suggesting that most people would drive at safe speeds without "authorities" to monitor them?


 We do it every day around here, lots of rural roads with no posted limits, limits nonetheless (as defined by blind curves, steep slopes, loose gravel, and yes even peer group pressure etc.) but not with a speed sign. Are you saying it's unusual, unlikely even, to expect others to drive or ride at a safe speed, to avoid harming others and yourself, due to the lack of a sign? Wow.......that would be a real surprise, and an insult, to many rural drivers I share the road with daily.

Chazpat: No, what I'm saying is that it's what lies between the ears of the operator of any vehicle of any type that determines how well it mixes with others. I don't get excited when I see a Corvette going through a school zone, when it's going the same speed as the soccer mom mini van/SUV does. I also wouldn't give a rats ass if a rider on some supposedly fearsomely overpowered ebike like what was at the start of this thread, rode a trail, at similar speeds as everyone else. I don't take it as a given that the rider is going to ride unsafe, if anything, again like a Corvette driver, he'd be on his best behavior. When's the last time you, if ever, saw a Corvette (no big fan of them myself, just as an example) driving dangerously, speeding etc? Hell when I see one, they are driving like little old ladies, and I especially like to see if I can goad one into a drag race, when I'm driving my Prius. No luck so far, partially because you cannot sit at a light and rev a Prius engine, you can pump the throttle but the computer won't let the engine start and rev, ha ha.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Emtbs are problematic because they are new, un proven, and could threaten trail access if the numbers increase and poaching becomes the norm. Period. I think the speed, trail damage, and fitness arguments aren't worthy. JMO.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Are you saying it's unusual, unlikely even, to expect others to drive or ride at a safe speed, to avoid harming others and yourself, due to the lack of a sign?


You are joking right?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> We do it every day around here, lots of rural roads with no posted limits, limits nonetheless (as defined by blind curves, steep slopes, loose gravel, and yes even peer group pressure etc.) but not with a speed sign. Are you saying it's unusual, unlikely even, to expect others to drive or ride at a safe speed, to avoid harming others and yourself, due to the lack of a sign? Wow.......that would be a real surprise, and an insult, to many rural drivers I share the road with daily.


Well shoot you must live in Utopia, I've never been there but hope to visit some day. Heck, even in Mayberry things could get out of control without Andy holding down the fort, remember what always happened when they left Barney in charge?

Where I live pretty much everyone drives at least 5-10mph over the limit because that's what they know they can get away with and I'm 100% confident that they would go even faster if they knew there would be no consequences, and by consequences I mean money, not safety. I live in a rural area but in lots of urban areas 10-20mph over is the norm. I'm not saying everyone does that but for sure the majority does.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

People speed like crazy in my neighborhood because they don't give a rat's ass about safety. If there were no speed limit signs or cops, they'd probably speed even more, though.

-Walt


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

portnuefpeddler said:


> We do it every day around here, lots of rural roads with no posted limits, limits nonetheless (as defined by blind curves, steep slopes, loose gravel, and yes even peer group pressure etc.) but not with a speed sign. Are you saying it's unusual, unlikely even, to expect others to drive or ride at a safe speed, to avoid harming others and yourself, due to the lack of a sign? Wow.......that would be a real surprise, and an insult, to many rural drivers I share the road with daily.
> 
> Chazpat: No, what I'm saying is that it's what lies between the ears of the operator of any vehicle of any type that determines how well it mixes with others. I don't get excited when I see a Corvette going through a school zone, when it's going the same speed as the soccer mom mini van/SUV does. I also wouldn't give a rats ass if a rider on some supposedly fearsomely overpowered ebike like what was at the start of this thread, rode a trail, at similar speeds as everyone else. I don't take it as a given that the rider is going to ride unsafe, if anything, again like a Corvette driver, he'd be on his best behavior. When's the last time you, if ever, saw a Corvette (no big fan of them myself, just as an example) driving dangerously, speeding etc? Hell when I see one, they are driving like little old ladies, and I especially like to see if I can goad one into a drag race, when I'm driving my Prius. No luck so far, partially because you cannot sit at a light and rev a Prius engine, you can pump the throttle but the computer won't let the engine start and rev, ha ha.


Corvettes are a great analogy

Study Finds Chevrolet Corvette Has Highest Auto Death Rate - latimes


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Corvettes are a great analogy
> 
> Study Finds Chevrolet Corvette Has Highest Auto Death Rate - latimes


I've got a funny/sad/Darwin Award story about one of those 5.2/10,000 'Vette drivers; we had a dude in our (rather rural) neighborhood with a (then) late model spiffy red T-top Corvette. Even had vanity plates that said "guilty" when phonetically sounded out. I'll call him "Monty" for reasons that will soon be apparent.

Monty's "thing" was to find a solo women driver, pull down his shorts and stand up (leaning back on the T-top) whilst passing his "prospect".

I know all of this because my wife was one of his "victims"; she actually thought it was pretty funny (and no "big deal"; she's a nurse) and had to be persuaded to call in a complaint. The sheriff said she could go to the office and file a complaint (many other women had also reported Monty) but the hassle of following through was not worth what would be a misdemeanor the first time. (Nor the potential risk of retaliation) This was before smartphones and dash cams; without photographic evidence (or the cops seeing it first hand) Monty never faced charges.

About a year passed and there was news of a fatal roll-over crash; single male occupant---you guessed it; red T-top 'Vette.

Turns out that besides doing "full Monty" for the ladies he was into nightly excursions were he would engage cruise control, sit on the T-top while steering with a foot and pleasuring himself. This night in particular he came into a corner "hot" and apparently when he tried to slide back down in his seat his shorts got caught (steering column?) and he couldn't bump the brake or otherwise disengage the cruise control. Started to spin out, over controlled, wheels caught a ditch and over it went. Of course Monty wasn't using his seat-belts.

Not sure how all this relates to electric bikes


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Moe Ped said:


> Not sure how all this relates to electric bikes


Good story though.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> Good story though.


Moe should post it in DJ's 10 & 2 driving poll.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

chazpat said:


> Moe should post it in DJ's 10 & 2 driving poll.


Done.


----------



## kellyc (Apr 3, 2007)

Well, between this thread, the rest of the forum, and learning about Trek's new e-MTB, I'm getting really excited about e-MTBs and the huge back country potential they represent. I've also read some stuff about how they are used in the Alps and in other parts of Europe. 

The "hate" is somewhat still lost on me. I get the part about someone riding illegally on pedestrian paths as well as potential for somebody to turn up to one of the mountain bike parks and cause havoc but that seems like a problem for the respective land manager to mitigate for. 

I can see tons of use cases for these bikes here in the Cascades. We've got a bunch of new singletrack going in near i-90 along with existing corridors of rail to trail conversation, dispersed trail networks, etc. I could see these bikes being used to link together all of these networks to form big days. 

It looks to me like there's a fair amount of variation in e-bikes in general, some are pedal assist, some have power on demand, some are effectively electric motorcycles.

Seems like the argument shouldn't be around how the bikes are defined, but how land managers define "motorized" vehicles, as most of those definitions were created based on a very limited scope of vehicles.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Yep, definitely a good story...poor Corvette


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Great story, mine is: one day I had just flown into Butte Montana, after 2 days of camping out in the Frank Church Wilderness Area, and decided to splurge on a motel room. Turns out there was a big rodeo going on, and there wasn't a room to be had at any price (and I wanted cheap). The airport loaner car was also out, so I decided to really splurge and RENT a car for 24 hrs. Hertz was on the field, I called and emphasized I wanted the cheapest thing they had, and was told that again due to the rodeo the compact/cheap cars were rented, and they only had one car of any kind left, but they would give it to me at the compact rate. 5 minutes later she pulls up in a 2 year Corvette, for $35.00 a day! Once behind the wheel, I headed to the next town over and got a good clean and cheap room, no rodeo there. The room and the car cost less then 100 bucks together. It was interesting seeing the reaction you get in the Corvette, I felt forced to explain it was a rental as i felt really out of place in it.

I have a CDL and don't need a speeding ticket, but I did accelerate briskly, very briskly, when getting up to the max interstate speed. Plus I found a deserted mall parking l and played around seeing how it cornered, like it it was glued to the road! Years later I got to drive a Tesla, the only other thing that ever pushed me back in the seat like that 'vette. 

sfgiantsfan: the study you refer to does not tell us anything about the Corvette accident rate, it does make perfectly clear the IF you are IN one and DO get in a wreck, you have a top rated chance of dying. That may be partially explained by the 'glas construction being brittle and not absorbing energy like a tin can car does.

Back to the point I was trying to make, when I drive my #1 top concern is my own and other's safety, the posted speed limit if any is secondary. I have no problem exceeding the limit and sometimes do, but NEVER when I could put others in danger. I also run stop signs from time to time, when I am on a deserted road with a crystal clear line of sight. If this makes me a dangerous driver, so be it, but I don't think so, my record certainly doesn't say that. The assumption that I am going to speed on a bike trail and endanger others just because I could, is what doesn't sit well with me and other ebikers I'm sure. Like most if not all Corvette drivers I see, most if not all ebikers I see are old farts (and long time two wheeled riders of all sorts) with some dough, and we didn't get that way by being dumb asses. I STILL think the most equitable "solution", not being sure there is a problem to begin with, is a free pass to old farts. 65 and up? Go tear it up, anywhere/anytime, Wilderness areas? Hell yes! I can't see that being a huge problem for anywhere or anybody, but know it won't happen.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Back to the point I was trying to make, when I drive my #1 top concern is my own and other's safety, the posted speed limit if any is secondary. I have no problem exceeding the limit and sometimes do, but NEVER when I could put others in danger.


Speeding is the second leading cause of car accidents and everyone thinks they always drive at a safe speed. Posted speed limits aren't necessarily the safest speeds to travel but just an agreed upon acceptable compromise between convenience and safety, 65mph on freeways would be safer than 75. 55mph would be safer yet. You might be the best driver on the road but slower is always safer for everyone involved.


----------



## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

By speeding I'm talking 52 in a 45, my daily commute, 2 lane, no traffic, clear sight lines. We have 80 mph interstate speeds here, which pisses this Prius driver off because if I drive less then 70 (my preference) I really need to keep a sharp eye on my rear view mirror, which I do anyway. Stopping my 54,000 crane truck. fully and completely, at a rural stop sign with, again, clear sight lines and NO traffic, strikes me as real inefficient, as compared to even a 3 mph rolling stop, and way easier on the clutch. I love yield signs, and being treated as an adult. I do agree, slower is safer, absolutely. I had zero issues with the 55 MPH speed limit way back when, screw Sammy Hagar.

Today I had to ride 7 miles clear across town, twice, on my Rohloff hub e Montague. What a joy, as compared to making the same drive in the crane, probably did it quicker too, for sure quieter. The watt meter showing zero quite a bit, meaning no e assist at all, totally unlike what some may think riding an ebike can be like. But it sure was nice to haul ass through choke points with minimal space for passing cars, keeping the at risk time down to a minimum. 95 degrees FWIW, the e assist made it OK, fun even.


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

I'd say that posting a 27 year-old article about a study done in the 1980s to make a point about Corvettes is right in line with the logic on display here. A C7 Z06 is a modern Supercar. At $100k out the door their owners tend to skew "older than millenials" and "don't have outstanding student loan debt".


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> By speeding I'm talking 52 in a 45, my daily commute, 2 lane, no traffic, clear sight lines.


I do that too, pretty much everyone does but 45 is still safer than 52mph regardless of the conditions or driver.


----------

