# Diablo Negligence WTF????



## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

So I was at Diablo today for opening day. This is my 8th season riding there. In general I am a big fan of diablo. I had already gone down tempest once, bypassing the anthem drop. Second run through there we head for anthem. No problem, hit it 100 times before. Anyone who has ridden this knows that you need decent speed to make the tranny. When on the bridge you cant see the landing until just before take off. This is what I saw:



















At the time when I saw it, I had a spit second choice. Slam on the brakes on the bridge (not enough time) or try to land it. I went for it and got drilled head first into the ground as soon as I hit the branches. Keep in mind this trail was listed as OPEN. I destroyed my helmet and had my bell rung. We grabbed branches and tried to close it off at the start of the bridge.

I went to the office and told them what happened. I said they owed me a helmet for total negligence on their part. No one from the park would even come out to talk to me. They sent their EMT out. They had the EMT tell me that my helmet was fine I just need a new visor. They said I should have looked before I hit it.

Seriously??? I would have been ok with it if even someone came out and admitted that they screwed up. I'm lucky to have not broken my neck. Doesn't anyone check the trails before opening day? Clearly all that crap didn't fall last night. It looked like it was dragged there to close the drop. Why wouldn't they close it at the entrance?

Anyway, I will continue to ride Diablo as it is my local park and I have a season pass. I would just offer some warning that just because its open doest mean they cleared the trail. I feel I am at least owed an apology. Anyone from Diablo, I would love to hear a response.


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## Demodude (Jan 27, 2007)

That must have been pretty frikin scary! Sounds like someone dropped the ball big time. No serious injuries I hope-


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

Demodude said:


> That must have been pretty frikin scary! Sounds like someone dropped the ball big time. No serious injuries I hope-


It shook me up pretty good. I got lucky. I'm just happy that i'm not in the hospital right now.


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## frankenstein406 (May 11, 2007)

Wow that's scary, can't believe they wouldn't say anything unless they did it or knew about it.


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## Hellav8ted (Aug 26, 2009)

Stoked you are not hurt.
Seriously unprofessional and negligent. 
They owe you a helmet and an apology.
If you hit your head hard enough to break the visor and 'ring your bell', the foam has almost definitely done it's (one time, by design) job and needs to be replaced.


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## OUTsane(the original) (Oct 21, 2009)

Wow! Glad you came out of it in one piece. You should go post a link to this thread on Diablo's facebook page, that should get a response.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

that s u c ks.......bad bad bad.....Diablo, buy him a helmet

maybe someone else put that out there


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## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

Those didn't just fall there. Someone put them there.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

It is ultimately the rider's responsibility to scout out ALL trail features before hitting them. However you do pay to get into the trails and some of that money should apply towards TRAIL MAINTENANCE. I would think they'd at least have someone ride the trails in the morning and make sure stuff like this wasn't causing an unnecessary hazardous situation.


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

ratmonkey said:


> Those didn't just fall there. Someone put them there.


Agreed. Those look very purposefully placed.


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

Look Before You Leap.


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## Pedal Shop (Dec 14, 2006)

looks to me someone just didn't finish the job of re-routing the trail --

parks do that often, they just messed up and didn't finish


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> that s u c ks.......bad bad bad.....Diablo, buy him a helmet
> 
> maybe someone else put that out there


They shouldn't do jacksh*t. That would set a really bad precedent. We need to be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT responsible for ourselves, otherwise you open the floodgate for litigation and every park would turn into Big Bear.


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

Gemini2k05 said:


> They shouldn't do jacksh*t. That would set a really bad precedent. We need to be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT responsible for ourselves, otherwise you open the floodgate for litigation and every park would turn into Big Bear.


I agree.

And I'm honestly not sure which is more negligent - leaving crap on the trail, or riding a trail on opening day without scoping it out first.

Sorry jmarin, but your safety is _your responsibility too_.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Gemini2k05 said:


> They shouldn't do jacksh*t. That would set a really bad precedent. We need to be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT responsible for ourselves, otherwise you open the floodgate for litigation and every park would turn into Big Bear.


park sweeps should be done every morning


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## C S (Sep 26, 2007)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> park sweeps should be done every morning


True, but here's the problem if they were to admit that they are responsible for the OP's crash (which would be inferred by buying him a new helmet): somebody will hear about it and tell somebody else, and before you know it everyone who eats **** on the mountain will expect something. And when they don't get it, they sue. The problem with this sport for mountain operators is that you can in some way turn any crash/injury into their fault (simply by virtue of providing us the terrain we love). And worse, most of those lawsuits would be won or settled because of our retarded court system.

The second problem is that they would open the door for the OP to sue the **** out of them by admitting negligence. They just don't know - he could be an entirely honest guy who just wants to get his helmet replaced and never mention it again, or he could turn around and say he needs more new bike parts, medical bills, you name it. It sucks because they can't do what most would believe to be fair and reasonable, but at the end of the day they have to cover their asses from the retards who will try to sue them for every little thing. Now, if americans weren't so goddamned lawsuit happy, this wouldn't be a problem... :madman:


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## freeriderB (Jan 9, 2004)

I've hit that drop hundreds of times too over the last few years. And I NEVER would anticipate THAT much debris in front of an already sketchy landing.
The thing to remember about diablo is that the older trails don't get as much love as the new ones they're currently rushing to finish.

Piling branches on a tranny? that's the sh*t hikers do on the local trails because they don't care for bikers.

Shame on Diablo for stating Tempest was open (w/o referencing the Athem drop)...but I've seen it many times before.

Glad you didn't get seriously hurt.

I'll make sure I take NOTHING for granted when I head there next weekend....


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## thecrackerasscracker (Jan 12, 2008)

WOW Im glad I didnt go now!


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## DEST (Jun 20, 2006)

The problem is that none of the trail crew this year rides except for jack but he's the manager so dont expect anyone to ride down and check if everything is clear you as the rider really need to look before u leap because noone else is going to the hospital except for u! It was still very fun it kinda felt like plattekill


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## freeriderB (Jan 9, 2004)

*trail crew*



DEST said:


> The problem is that none of the trail crew this year rides except for jack but he's the manager so dont expect anyone to ride down and check if everything is clear you as the rider really need to look before u leap because noone else is going to the hospital except for u! It was still very fun it kinda felt like plattekill


now that's a problem...trail crew NEEDS to cruise the trails each morning looking for stuff like this. It really is weird seeing the tranny stacked with [email protected] If anyone was cleaning up Tempest...they would just toss the branches into the woods, not line them up on the tranny!
Like the OP says...there is zero time to think on that drop


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## "FFT" (Dec 9, 2010)

Check every stunt before hitting it? Is that same for a jump line? Walk the whole park before hitting it? You gotta be kidding me. I call ********. I was right behind him when he hit the drop, its a no brainer and should have been inspected by the park. Additionally, the park is responsible for the wood structures, they should, at least once a year, inspect the construction to make sure its solid. 

Diablo dropped the ball and should admit it. Where was Shaun and Jack on opening day? Were any of the trails inspected prior to the opening? Why was tempest listed as open? The park has to assume a certain degree of responability. The branches were intentionally put in the landing to stabilize the hay that was laid down at the close of the season last year, it was obvious. They either forgot to clear the landing or there is not enough trail crew. If Jmarin broke his neck and the trail crew and emt's had to report to the stunt and make a report the entire scenario would have been different. 

If it we me or any of you, we would be as pissed off as jmarin. Im gonna support this dudes claim that Diablo is a fault.


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## Mr. Blonde (May 18, 2008)

50/50 culpability here. 

Why would you hit a sketchy drop blind on opening day? Even if had been clean it could have changed significantly in the off season.


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## cdburch (Apr 25, 2007)

if you look at the liability forms you signed before you rode you will see that it is in fact your responsibility to check the trail and all features before you ride and that you hold them blameless for anything that happens even if a result of the park's negligence, including poorly maintained or built man made features. 

its pretty much standard at every park i've ever been to and about theonly way they can possibly satisfy the insurance requirements of charging people to take part in a high risk sport on their property.

this is one of those times when no one is right and no one is wrong and no one is happy about it. yay life!


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

ratmonkey said:


> Those didn't just fall there. Someone put them there.


Not sure why people aren't jumping on this.

They look very placed, and the question would be naturally by whom...


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

FFT said:


> Check every stunt before hitting it? Is that same for a jump line?


Yep, exactly. If I were riding a park the first day it opened after months of being closed I wouldn't be bombing down ANY run without doing an easy cruise run to check out each trail. Or at least being going slow enough to stop or bail out of any feature safely. Even if the trails were in impeccable shape you need to be riding in control enough to be able to stop for any downed rider.

All I can say is that I wouldn't like to see you people ride on our multi-use, sometimes booby trapped, poorly maintained trail on the side of a cliff. I think you'd have a heart attack.


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## DeanH (Jan 9, 2008)

the park answered him on RM.


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## tuumbaq (Oct 6, 2005)

essenmeinstuff said:


> Not sure why people aren't jumping on this.
> 
> They look very placed, and the question would be naturally by whom...


this . . .

and also this :

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241941


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

I understand the argument that each and every one of us is responsible for our actions. Part of the thrill of our sport is to push ourselves, acquire more skills, and demand more from our rigs to progress as riders.

The OP, based on his account, and I have no reason to believe he is fabricating his account, suffered an injury and damaged his personal property not as a result from his lack of responsibility for his actions but as a direct result from negligence from the park operator. If this site was on public land, AND there was not a FEE to enter the site, legally, the responsibility would fall on the rider.

I know that riders don't want to see resorts getting shut down, I sure the hell don't. Legally, when a business accepts a fee for one to practice a "hazardous recreational sport", the operator, by law, assumes the responsibility to provide a "duty of care" to the fee payers. This means the operator is not responsible for any injuries that occur as a result from a rider failing to negotiate any stunt, provided said stunt is properly constructed to what is referred to as "best practices" methods, and said stunt is sufficently marked.

The resort seriously, and I mean seriously, failed to provide their "duty of care" to the riders that entered the park when this unfotunate accident occured. What should also be noted is the OP never once brought up his intention to sue, which shows a level of responsibility and maturity everyone on this forum should note. If this resort has any clue and an ounce of morals, it would be in their best interest to take care of the OP and immediately review and if needed change their operating, maintenance and reporting procedures. The OP could have ended up in a very worse situation and still has handled this very responsibly. I'm stoked it didn't turn out worse.


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## tuumbaq (Oct 6, 2005)

Boulder Pilot said:


> What should also be noted is the OP never once brought up his intention to sue, which shows a level of responsibility and maturity everyone on this forum should note.


Really eh? He still took several pictures of it and posted it all up on the internet:thumbsup: A law suit cost a lot $$$$$$$$$$$ , perhaps the OP knows he cant afford it and its the only reason preventing him to do it.

and as its been mentioned elsewhere, the trail was apparently said to be closed...and takes that 50/50 responsibility to 100% riders fault as far as Im concerned . . . End of the story.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

tuumbaq said:


> Really eh? He still took several pictures of it and posted it all up on the internet:thumbsup: A law suit cost a lot $$$$$$$$$$$ , perhaps the OP knows he cant afford it and its the only reason preventing him to do it.
> 
> and as its been mentioned elsewhere, the trail was apparently said to be closed...and takes that 50/50 responsibility to 100% riders fault as far as Im concerned . . . End of the story.


Funny, a rider who happened to be in the shop while I was explaining the event to the staff was a lawyer and ended up contacting me via pm. I have no interest in suing the park. If some one had responded in the office " That shouldn't have happened. We had that trail closed off. Another rider must have opened it. We will send somone up there to make sure it gets closed off, etc.." I would have never posted this stuff up. I didn't even take the pictures. Another rider took them and sent them to my phone. I don't know the guys standing in the picture. They were just coming down the trail after us.

The trail wasn't closed off. I rode down the main trail that this is off the second run of the day and saw no signs of trail closure at the entrance. I came back and hit this drop hours later. I've seen riders open closed trails before. What I have never seen is a rider open a closed trail and proceed to completely remove the sign, yellow rope or tape and take it. If these items were in the vicinity of the trail entrance that explanation might be believable. Obviously the park would explain it in a way where there is someone else to blame. If they did admit anything it could hurt them later. I get it.

You asked on RM why post this if not to harm Diablo? 2 reasons: First to make sure that I got Diablo's attention so this hopefully doesn't happen again. Second to alert fellow riders not to make the same mistake.

Where you (and others) are right is that I should have looked. I don't care about the helmet. I'm lucky that I'm ok and also lucky to have a park like Diablo to ride.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

tuumbaq said:


> this . . .
> 
> and also this :
> 
> http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241941


So according to that thread (who knows if its true) the park puts the stuff there to stop poaching in the winter, then didn't remove it before they opened the park the next season.

If thats not negligence I don't know what is.


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## Archi-Magus (Feb 22, 2010)

There is absolutely no point in riding a resort if you have to treat it like some random spot on some random mountain. Isn't that just common sense? Wouldn't you think that loyal customers and an enjoyable experience at their establishment would be desirable for the park owners, or even the management? Don't they pay people to make sure that trails are good to ride before posting them as open? Incompetence at it's finest, and if it would have happened in any other setting the company would be at fault completely.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Read the thread, also the thread on RM.
The reply from DFP was just scary, not the way to garner good PR, but an excellent way to alienate people. 

To me sounds like DFP is just trying to weasel out of even saying a meaninfull "Sorry, and we hope you are OK" I too have come across rider opened trail. No rider takes the rope, tape, sign, or barrier with them. Not enough stuff in the Hydration pack already - here take this... ya ok.
Hell they don't even hide it, it is usually in a pile about 2-3 feet off the trail side if not on the trail itself.

DFP simply messed up by not removing the winter protection.
All they had to do was send somebody up immediately to remove the debris, check the stunt top to bottom, and offer a little compassion to the OP and not go all hard-azzed. The EMT stuff is just ludicrous...does this guy have some special x-ray vision. Yup helmet is ok, you are not dizzy because of the head impact, your just de-hydrated. FAIL - somebody revoke this guys credentials, he is obviously more interested in his employer PR than the health of one of the clients. Sometimes a little honey works wonders. Give the guy a deal on a new bucket, costs you very little / nothing and does a huge amount of good PR. He was not looking to sue, just wanted a little understanding.

michael


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Diablo response below... I have a problem with..........if you know riders have *"self-entitlement of certain riders is staggering"*(a lawyer would have a field day with this statement of your self knowledge) then you should have taken extra steps to insure the safety of riders who do not have "self-entitlement"... As you should surely know. A rope doesn't do anything...at other parks I have seen chains across stunts to close them. Never should landings have debris (fallen wood) on them....Debris on landings is the most stupid thing I have ever heard...boards up through ladder to stop riders is another thought........Diablo you failed IMO....giving a guy a helmet would be nothing....guy seems reasonable and looking for best interest of sport. If you think about it....a helmet is nothing for something that could really turn ugly fast.

I in no way want parks to close. In fact, Diablo is on my summer tour of parks I plan to ride. But if you know you have a problem with "self entitlement" then common sense about properly closing trails with chains or other more stable closures would go a long way (ie think a pit before ladder or steel poles before ladder go a long way) It is about thinking smart. It is about using your experiences to best rectify bad situations.

Diablo's response:

While it is very unfortunate what happened to the original poster, it is not a representation of Diablo Freeride Park being negligent. The "Anthem" trail is a short, offshoot trail that merely serves the purpose as an in-run to the Anthem Drop. This trail was clearly closed with rope, a trail closed sign and downfall was placed on BOTH the landing AND in-run. We had no intentions of opening this line and this situation, while unfortunate, was directly a result of another rider or rider(s) taking it upon themselves to "open" a trail without permission or consent. It appears that these individual removed the necessary signage, the debris from the inrun, and then bailed when they saw that this would take a lot of time to clear the entire section of the trail. Unfortunately, there is no way for our park, or any park, to police every trail, every feature, every minute of the day and the riders responsible for doing this should be ashamed.

Trail closures are a part of bike park operations and if a trail is closed, it is closed for a REASON. Even though you purchase a lift ticket, or a pass, this does not give you the right to take it upon yourself to alter operations, open/close trails, or create pirate lines. The amount of self-entitlement of certain riders is staggering, alarming and a detriment to our sport.

Regarding opening day trail maintenance and for those stating that there was "zero" trail maintenance. Sorry to be blunt, but you are wrong. The Trail Crew, as was I, were on the mountain for 6 weeks in snow, rain, sleet, hail and every imaginable adverse weather condition preparing the mountain for opening day. EVERY trail was inspected, ALL popular, high-traffic trails were maintained either by extensive handwork and/or machine work, however there were a handful of the 'natural', less popular trails (six to be exact) that did not receive a final leaf-blow. These six trails WERE inspected, major debris removed and deemed SAFE to ride. No disrespect, but if you need every trail buffed to BMX-course-like perfection, than DH riding may not be the sport for you. Leaves on trails are a part of the sport and sometimes they exist and sometimes they do not but by no means do leaves represent a lack of maintenance.

Lastly, it is important to note that we have an impeccable safety record, and in fact, a flawless one. Diablo has been in business for seven years, played host to ten's of thousands of riders (and racers) and we have a verifiable ZERO insurance loss-run and furthermore, there has not been one single insurance claim filed during this period for any reason whatsoever. In arguably the most litigious region of the country (NJ/NYC), in a high-risk sport such as DH'ing with tens of thousands of riders per year, this benchmark safety record is a testament to our dedication to safety & high-standard of trail maintenance. Clearly a 'half-assed' or 'neglectful' operation as stated above would not be able to claim this type of safety record.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but hopefully this sheds some light on the situation. It's another busy day here at the park and it's looking like another record-breaking opening weekend! Thank you to the thousands of riders that continue to support the park, it's going to be a great season full of new trails, features & events! If you have any questions please direct them to: [email protected] and we would be happy to provide additional info at our earliest convenience.

Regards, 
Shawn Orecchio
General Manager
Diablo Freeride Park


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

A lot of speculation going on in here. I didn't see the post on Ridemonkey.com before posting. After reading the post, I hope to hell it wasn't posted from anyone involved in operations of Diablo.

I haven't read a post in this thread where anyone wants to see Diablo or any other site shut down. I'm reading a few posts that in effect believe it's important to have sites open and if paying visitors are injured, NO MATTER the reason, that comes with the territory.

All I'm going to say at this moment is the OP has never implied that the thought of a lawsuit ever entered his mind, and that even now this is still the case. Someone has implied that the OP's motives for creating this thread are to harm Diablo. I fail to see this point of view.

That said, I've read one post, and it's not on this website, that has the REAL potential to create a very, very messy situation for Diablo. The post also is evidence of the lack of understanding of each parties responsibility (paying guest and site management) and although I believe the intent of the reasoning behind said post, and I'll go so far as I believe the sincerity of said post, but in the best interest of Diablo, someone needs to yank it.


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## Prettym1k3 (Oct 11, 2005)

Legally speaking, if they are providing a service with known risks, it is their duty to make sure that all known risks are dealt with in the safest manner possible both for employees and customers.

As unfortunate as this situation is, the case could go either way if a lawsuit was filed. The rider would have to prove that Diablo was negligent, and I would say that Diablo would have a good defense with all sorts of witnesses (employees and riders) who can testify to Diablo's clean-up, maintenance, warning and safety standards.

Sorry to the OP. That sucks. I'd be pissed off, too. And as much as there are a million scumbag lawyers out there who would love a case like this, you have to remember... a case like this could close a park like Diablo for good, and set court precedent for dozens of other cases like this. None of us wants that.

Hope you heal up soon, man! And remember... just because Diablo doesn't say that they're sorry doesn't mean that the aren't. But if they issue a verbal or written apology, in court that could imply accepting fault or admitting guilt. And again, that could be disastrous for the MTB community that loves the very few parks we have to ride in already.


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

sounds like you need to be pissed at the riders who "opened" the trail, not diablo.


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## frankenstein406 (May 11, 2007)

Lol clearing that would have taken 5 minutes with time to piss. It's just dead and dryed out sticks.


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## freeriderB (Jan 9, 2004)

Diablo can take this event and learn from it...simply put a whiteboard at the bottom of the lift identifying the trails, stunts, lines...etc that are closed for the day.
This way, if some knuckleheads decide to poach...riders will have some knowledge prior to their first run.
It's not foolproof...but it could help.
Only problem is that one of the DFP staff will have to get there bright and early to post it since the lift guys work for Mt Creek...not DFP (unless this has changed)?


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## Rob-Bob (Jun 11, 2004)

Maybe this will serve as a little wake up call to Diablo. Hopefully they learn from their mistake and make sure all closed trails are closed properly. I hate to hear the word lawsuit being mentioned, but it is in the parks own best interest to make sure that the trails are as safe as possible and that the staff on hand is doing the job they are supposed to do. I am just glad that the OP is ok and isn't some sue happy jerk off.


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

freeriderB said:


> Diablo can take this event and learn from it...simply put a whiteboard at the bottom of the lift identifying the trails, stunts, lines...etc that are closed for the day.
> This way, if some knuckleheads decide to poach...riders will have some knowledge prior to their first run.
> It's not foolproof...but it could help.
> Only problem is that one of the DFP staff will have to get there bright and early to post it since the lift guys work for Mt Creek...not DFP (unless this has changed)?


THIS :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Diablo screwed up. Putting debris on the landing is the WORST thing to do. I know at The Land in Western NY they but big debris, including truck tires, on the actual ladder bridge to keep off poachers. Big screw up on Diablo's part for that one.

That being said, every 12 year old can understand the concept of "look before you leap." Not that complex.

OP, glad you're OK. Instead of blowing up on the intraweb, The cooler thing to do would have asked to talk to a general manager, trail crew boss, etc. And don't demand that they give you something. Ask nicely for some compensation. "Oh, this ruined my ride day. Can you give me a voucher for a lift ticket on another day?"


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## clockwork (Dec 9, 2006)

Be glad you babies have a resort nearby hell if we want to resort ride we have to travel out of state.


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

FFT said:


> Check every stunt before hitting it? Is that same for a jump line? Walk the whole park before hitting it? You gotta be kidding me.


*On opening day?* No, not kidding. There's two ways to find out what's changed since last year. One of them involves risking your life.

If you are OK with that level of risk, knock yourself out...

I'll grant that putting crap on the landing is insanely dumb, even for the off-season. But this is the kind of thing that happens when you take risks - regardless of who you think should be at fault if something like this happens, stuff like this does happen and repeating "this shouldn't happen" won't keep you out of the hospital. Those words on the back of the lift ticket aren't just there for decoration - you are responsible for your own safety.


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## "FFT" (Dec 9, 2010)

b-kul said:


> sounds like you need to be pissed at the riders who "opened" the trail, not diablo.


Never happened, It was a bullsh1t excuse from a well known liar.


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## vpc-los (Jan 26, 2007)

I was with some guys there that AM and me and my friend rolled up right after it happened. (in Pic) and what Jimarin is saying is absolutely true. there were no signs or anything saying this feature was closed. It was very negligent on the park to not warn riders to avoid something from happening. My first trip there was this past weekend and the park was awsome but after that i was sure to inspect every feature before hitting it just in case they forgot to flag another one.


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## waterdogs (Jun 18, 2010)

I figured I would post over here as well:

Everyone involved should have simply done what makes sense and none of this would have happened. It boils down to risk management, do that and you won't have a problem.

Rider, look before you leap
Park, have a trail scout, don't let overhead $$$ get in the way, safety is more important
Park, why place obstacles downstream of any feature (I personally don't agree with this). Closed or not, you in essence invite the ride to hit the feature and pretty much seal his fate or invoke injury downstream of that feature. That's not good sense. I'd suggest putting a obstacle at the entrance or at the lip of the drop. Trail open or closed/voluntary or not, the rider can see the feature is closed and react to keep all parties in the green/safe. 

Risk Management 101, take the necessary steps to keep your customers safe and happy


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## dhtahoe (Mar 18, 2004)

Putting all things aside. Look before you leap... whatever! IN A COURT OF LAW Diablo would have lost any civil suit brought against them on this one. It also has a man made feature leading into it so all the legal mubo jumbo is different in those matters. It is also considerered a "closed course" so yes Diablo is responsible for every inch of that trail being "safe for the public for it's intended use". This was not done by the trail crew and/or inspected by the trail crew manager.


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## cdburch (Apr 25, 2007)

all of this definitely has me looking forward to hitting highland for the first time even more this year.


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## daisycutter (Sep 18, 2005)

You west coast guys stay out of the east coast business. California has great mountains an **** lift access. East coast has small moutains and lots of lift access options. I think the main reason is liabilty. If DIablo closes it hurts us east coast dudes. How are you impacted? Diablo has it faults but the last thing want is for it to close down because some **** eating lawyer wantso to make money off of it


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

I cannot believe that people are defending Diablo in this unbelievable, blatant case of irresponsibility and gross negligence--premised on the notion that if the mountain had any culpability it would "cut down" on East Coast riding spots. That is absurd. 

This is neither a matter of "self entitlement" nor rider responsibility. While the rider obviously holds a certain level of responsibility for his or her own safety on the mountain, it must be kept in mind that that does not, and should not, extend to cases of gross negligence like this. 

As far as I'm concerned, as long as a mountain (Diablo, in this case) is in operation it has an obligation to both it's customers and its liability provider to ensure that its facility is as safe as possible. This is so blatant a violation of that obligation that I would be tempted to encourage a lawsuit purely on the basis of ensuring that Diablo has adequate managerial oversight in order to even be operating. An incident of this nature (especially when considering how the mountain chose to handle the situation afterwards) seems to imply a serious breakdown of this particular mountains ability to provide an adequately safe facility and I think at the very least does vindicate at least some legal movement in order to protect the safety of everyone. 

Who in their right mind would deem placement of debris in a blind area a responsible way to discourage illegal trail use anyways, and why are they holding a decision making role within Diablo? Placing debris like that essentially ensures that hitting that drop (legally or illegally) will result in injury. 

If Diablo's management is not structured in a way that is conducive to user safety, then it needs to be reformed, and that reform isn't going to happen if incidents like this are let go unresolved. If a park cannot operate in a way that holds its customers' safety as priority, it should simply not be in the business--regardless of how few lift access resorts are present on the East Coast.


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

dhtahoe said:


> Look before you leap... whatever! IN A COURT OF LAW Diablo would have lost any civil suit brought against them on this one.


"Look before you leap" doesn't mean Diablo wasn't negligent, it's just good advice, and this thread shows why.

You're probably right about Diablo losing such a suit. I dunno about you, but I really don't want to win one of those lawsuits, because for that to happen I'd have to be horribly injured first. And I don't want to see anyone I know winning one of those lawsuits, for that same reason.

If you don't want to take responsibility for your own safety ("...whatever!"), you might as well start practicing your wheelchair tricks now.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

If diablo wanted to really close the obstacle they could have fenced off the takeoff with that plastic orange fencing. I agree that obstacles on the landing are not a good way to "close" an obstacle. I also agree about scoping a jump first. But that should be a personal best practice.


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## scaryfast (Apr 23, 2004)

This would NEVER happen in Whistler or Northstar resorts as they wouldn't dare be stupid enough to compromise the safety of their guests. Trails are closed regularly and riders are made very aware of such closures. There's nothing wrong with closed trails; however, riders ABSOLUTELY must be made aware of this at the trail head at bare minimal.


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## dropadrop (Sep 20, 2005)

Somehow that response from Diablo is astounding. Even if the trail was closed it was closed incorrectly if people can just ride away leaving no trace of the signs or rope (my ******** detector is ringing). No apology? Unbelievable...


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

dowst said:


> I cannot believe that people are defending Diablo in this unbelievable, blatant case of irresponsibility and gross negligence--premised on the notion that if the mountain had any culpability it would "cut down" on East Coast riding spots. That is absurd.
> 
> This is neither a matter of "self entitlement" nor rider responsibility. While the rider obviously holds a certain level of responsibility for his or her own safety on the mountain, it must be kept in mind that that does not, and should not, extend to cases of gross negligence like this.
> 
> ...


There is one word here that is out of place a little in this far too well written post!


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## motobutane (Sep 23, 2008)

jimarin got the pictures on his phone - worked up a few tears - walked into the office and cryed my helmet is busted.


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## deadatbirth (Jul 23, 2007)

^^ wow, thats about th dumbest comment ive heard in a while. is this PB?


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

i've read this thread and I've read the PB thread and I've tried to not want to say anything BUT I find myself needing to add to the noise, if for no other reason to help it be ignorable internet noise.

First, i'm bummed for OP that he had the bad "juju" happen. That's sucky. Glad he's not (seriously) hurt.

It'd been cool if Diablo had been able to cough up a new helmet, but I can understand the business case that they can't afford to do that ... not when the guy rolled off the hill under his own auspices. Maybe other places do this, I don't know. To me in the current fiscal / biz / etc. climate I just don't expect it.

I'd love to meet the worker who thought putting down stuff after a TTF would inhibit entry to it at all. I'd also enjoy conversing in person with people taht think this is the case. It astounds me, there's nil sense in this. Common or otherwise. "Does not compute" - something else must be going on with that crud. Whether it was there over the winter is also impossible to say.

I'd love to watch the nutters hitting that trail and drop on their planks in the winter though, that'd be awesome!

I was there over the weekend, I saw closed trails (via ropes). I could have dropped and hidden closure ropes in 30 seconds such that they'd never be noticed, without getting off trail nor trying hard. It's possible. Seriously. Hell, the crud would fit in the cargo pocket of my shorts along with the knife needed to cut the rope!

Whether that happened to Anthem I'll never know. Don't care really, at this point.

I'll side, at this point, with the non-side-committed - there was potentially responsibilities on both sides of this argument that were not fulfilled.

Nobody went to the e-room and needed stitches nor splints though, so at this point these thread have way over-served their best purpose (IMO) - that being to remind people to Look Before You Leap.

It's hump-day now, I'm going to try focusing more on when I get my next "fix".


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## motobutane (Sep 23, 2008)

deadatbirth said:


> ^^ wow, thats about th dumbest comment ive heard in a while. is this PB?


Well don't get all Butthurt, I didn't tell you to read it:nono:


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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

A rider should check out landings before they hit them. But Diablo is a bike park and the employees should be checking out the landings of drops before the park opens. If you're in a terrain park during the winter , the last thing you're going expect on a jump's landing is a pile of debris. Same goes for a bike park - if the same drop has had the same smooth landing you shouldn't expect debris the trail

In a world where lots of idiots are trying to sue ski/bike parks. This is one case where the resort is completely at fault.


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## backcountryislife (Jun 18, 2008)

VTSession said:


> A rider should check out landings before they hit them. But Diablo is a bike park and the employees should be checking out the landings of drops before the park opens. If you're in a terrain park during the winter , the last thing you're going expect on a jump's landing is a pile of debris. Same goes for a bike park - if the same drop has had the same smooth landing you shouldn't expect debris the trail
> 
> In a world where lots of idiots are trying to sue ski/bike parks. This is one case where the resort is completely at fault.


Agreed completely. Diablo should be very happy that ALL he did was create a bit of a interweb spectacle, because no matter how you try to spin it, there is clear liability on their behalf.

Hope they step up in response to this, sometimes it takes a bit of a wake-up call to get people thinking about how to do things better. IMO.. pretty cool OP didn't sue.

I broke my ankle at a gymnastics place years ago, tramp track failed & I fell through to the concrete... didn't sue, never would have. The next year they closed to anyone over 18... except me because they knew I was a decent guy. Sometimes it's not what you can do, but what you SHOULD do that matters.


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## michaelblade (Oct 18, 2006)

*Wtf*

You Are A Dh Ridin Bad Mf'r. Just Be Tough Like You Are. Pre Run Makes Sense. Making Waves Does Not. I'm Just Glad You Made It With Minimal Damage. After All, It Aint Disneyland


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

I can understand the perceived fear that posting reports of injuries at mountain biking resorts may negatively impact riding opportunities not only at the resort in question, but elsewhere. Since the OP specifically stated he has no intention to escalate this situation, which I personally find mature and admirable, maybe this situation can be looked at like this:

Let's not lower what we, riders, consider acceptable practices. We get injured because we failed to negotiate a stunt we CHOSE to hit, that's on us, THE WAY IT SHOULD AND NEEDS TO BE. We get injured because resort operators fail to fulfill their LEGAL OBLIGATION that comes with taking our money at the gate, our message is:

Don't blame us if you get shut down. We will live up to our obligation, you live up to yours.


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## LWright (Jan 29, 2006)

Never mind, leaped before I looked.


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## DOCRIGID (Sep 16, 2009)

c'mon dude you gotta check the trails. it would of been so hard to stop before the drop scope it, clear the branches and then send it.


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## scaryfast (Apr 23, 2004)

I'd understand everyone's comments about accountability IF...they were talking about a trail that isn't maintained by a company. As a paying consumer, you expect a service to be rendered. If I'm paying I expect the trail to be SAFE. This does not include stunts and drops or whatever. This does include tree limbs that are put in the middle of a landing on PURPOSE to prevent poaching. Any resort open for the winter, would still have no problem closing a trail if there are any issues. What changed? Why is it ok for this resort to say, hey, we reserve the right to close trails and not let you know about the closure? It's one thing if you mess up on a stunt/obstacle that is part of the course, but this doesn't include obstacles that are included to HURT riders if they poach a trail they aren't supposed to be riding.


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

really dumbablo, obviously an improperly closed jump, put a barrier on the top of the jump ,close the trail that leads the jump, don't **** up the landing like a trail vandal. I'm guessing the reason for closing the drop was that they want to move some fresh dirt into the landing,at some later time. Whoever unofficially opened the drop and then left the branches there is really an idiot. I'm gonna give them a couple weeks to get all the glitches straightened out and for things to fully dry out. I like to get a freeride or two in with lighter tires before i throw on the heavy meats for dh,gas prices and my own personal economy have me not so enthusiastic about getting myself into the dh scene again.


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## Dougie (Aug 29, 2004)

While it certainly sucks that this guy got hurt, everyone seems to forget that the first thing you do when you ride one of these parks is sign a waiver. Short of an employee of the park clubbing you over the head and causing injury, there's not much you can do in terms of legal action. They make you sign a waiver so that you can't sue them if anything happens. 

Continue to argue about it though, it's entertaining. The pussification of lawsuit-happy, blame-it-on-someone-else America never ceases to amaze me.


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## deadatbirth (Jul 23, 2007)

Dougie said:


> While it certainly sucks that this guy got hurt, everyone seems to forget that the first thing you do when you ride one of these parks is sign a waiver. Short of an employee of the park clubbing you over the head and causing injury, there's not much you can do in terms of legal action. They make you sign a waiver so that you can't sue them if anything happens.
> 
> Continue to argue about it though, it's entertaining. The pussification of lawsuit-happy, blame-it-on-someone-else America never ceases to amaze me.


another funny/dumb post.

the OP could still sue if he wanted to (which he isnt) despite signing a waiver.

and he has every right to be pissed...from the way the trail was "shut down" to the lack luster response from Diablow.


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## Dougie (Aug 29, 2004)

deadatbirth said:


> the OP could still sue if he wanted to


Thanks for proving my point. Carry on.

I certainly feel bad for the guy. I've ridden that drop hundreds of times and I would be unpleasantly surprised if there were a bunch of sticks on the landing. That said, it's DH riding. Crap happens.

I'm more reacting to people talking about lawsuits. Sure, anyone can sue anyone else for anything. I could sue people on internet forums for being idiots, but I wouldn't win. I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that waiver that you sign is in place to prevent someone from winning a lawsuit if they get hurt while riding and choose to sue.


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## deadatbirth (Jul 23, 2007)

Dougie said:


> Thanks for proving my point. Carry on.


that was in response to him signing a waiver.


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

essenmeinstuff said:


> There is one word here that is out of place a little in this far too well written post!


"it's" with an apostrophe?


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## Uncle Six Pack (Aug 29, 2004)

Dougie said:


> While it certainly sucks that this guy got hurt, everyone seems to forget that the first thing you do when you ride one of these parks is sign a waiver. Short of an employee of the park clubbing you over the head and causing injury, there's not much you can do in terms of legal action. They make you sign a waiver so that you can't sue them if anything happens.
> 
> Continue to argue about it though, it's entertaining. The pussification of lawsuit-happy, blame-it-on-someone-else America never ceases to amaze me.


While I am not lawsuit-happy (by a LOOONG stretch), the thing that makes me wonder about posts of this tone (YOU SIGNED A WAIVER) is what if we take this to the extreme.... Diablo closes a trail by hanging a single strand of barbed wire at neck-level.... uh, sorry, dude, you signed a waiver. Yeah, right. That waiver assures that if *I* do something stupid i won't sue them... If they do something stupid (sabotage a landing) then all bets are off. When you run a business, you do what is right. What is right here is a method to gate a trail or feature that is tamper-proof. What is right here is a big apology and a new helmet, then thank your good luck that somebody didn't either decide to sue or get hurt much worse.

All the same, though, scope out the stunts before launching. Even a great lawsuit settlement will never mend bones.


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## victim (Aug 10, 2006)

So Diablo is trying to injure/kill poachers? That's the issue I have here. Glad the OP is ok and if I was him I'd be pissed too. I poach trails all the time, I admit that, but I would never poach from a pay to ride park/area but still... Punishment does not fit the crime here IMO.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

victim said:


> So Diablo is trying to injure/kill poachers? That's the issue I have here. Glad the OP is ok and if I was him I'd be pissed too. I poach trails all the time, I admit that, but I would never poach from a pay to ride park/area but still... Punishment does not fit the crime here IMO.


Maybe not poaching...
There is quite a bit of question surrounding whether the trail was open or closed. Riders including people not included in the OP's group have stated that there was no sign of trail closure. No rope, no tape, no wooden barricade, no sign nothing, nada. After this point was made, DFP stated that the trail was closed so ppffftttt.

Who you gonna believe the park caught with their pants down, or actual riders on the mountain who stated not closed and no closure method in sight.

The park needs to be more proactive, a board stating what is open and closed at the base of the hill and again at the top. As well as a good solid hard to move closure method and pre-opening sweeps of everything to confirm the closure boards match the mountain. Nothing is idiot proof as one of the places I ride uses road closure barricades. You know the big black and yellow things made out of large dimensional lumber that span some 10 or so feet - I have seen these moved by poachers but they are bloody huge and obvious if moved.

michael


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

mykel said:


> Who you gonna believe the park caught with their pants down, or actual riders on the mountain who stated not closed and no closure method in sight.


How certain are you that if a rider took down the closure sign / tape / fence / whatever, they would see this thread?

And if they did, how certain are you that they would post up an apology?


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

In the tradeoff of manpower / vehicular / construction cost to make/maintain difficult to move trail closure barricades vs just look-before-you-leap, I'm with the latter.

It won't double the cost of my lift pass.


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## Prettym1k3 (Oct 11, 2005)

dowst,

I really don't think you understand the ramifications of filing a lawsuit such as this to the entire mountain bicycling community.

Would he have a case? Most likely. But the burden of proof would be on him, and seeing as most people have nothing but good things to say about Diablo, I'm sure they'd have witnesses knocking down the door to defend them with safety standards, experiences, etc.

You encourage something that could detrimentally affect access to lift assisted gravity locations.

People who file lawsuits such as this prove that even though they know that they're taking a huge risk in riding in a place like Diablo with BIG stunts, that they really don't have any clue what they're getting themselves into.

A lawsuit as big as something like this could turn into something bigger than you can possibly fathom, particularly if there were injuries that some sheisty doctor would say are "long-term", and wouldn't reform anything at Diablo. It would shut it down. Because whatever crap-ass lawyer the rider hired wouldn't just sue for reform - he'd sue for compensatory damages to replace bike, medical costs, helmet (maybe... $5000-6000?) and then punitive damages to the tune of a gazillion dollars.

Think long term. Not short term.


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## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

Prettym1k3 said:


> dowst, I really don't think you understand what ramifications of filing a lawsuit such as this to the entire mountain bicycling community.
> ...
> Think long term. Not short term.


I think you are missing his point completely. (Very eloquently written by the way). He is trying to warn Diablo because if it doesn't shape up (IF they screwed up here which is unclear from what I have read so far) and gets sued when someone does get hurt seriously due to its GROSS NEGLIGENCE, it will hurt other parks as well via higher insurance premiums, etc.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

Cable0guy said:


> I think you are missing his point completely. (Very eloquently written by the way). He is trying to warn Diablo because if it doesn't shape up (IF they screwed up here which is unclear from what I have read so far) and gets sued when someone does get hurt seriously due to its GROSS NEGLIGENCE, it will hurt other parks as well via higher insurance premiums, etc.


If that's the whole point, it would have been most eloquently served by either a person-to-person chat with the management (hard to do, sure), or a physical letter sent via snail-mail to the same.

Posting on the internet is NOT the way to be taken seriously as trying to contribute constructively to a potentially bad situation.


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## Jason B (Aug 15, 2008)

Prettym1k3 said:


> dowst,
> 
> I really don't think you understand the ramifications of filing a lawsuit such as this to the entire mountain bicycling community.


Pretty sure he understood this very clearly as he stated here...



dowst said:


> If a park cannot operate in a way that holds its customers' safety as priority, it should simply not be in the business--regardless of how few lift access resorts are present on the East Coast.


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## Dougie (Aug 29, 2004)

Prettym1k3 said:


> People who file lawsuits such as this prove that even though they know that they're taking a huge risk in riding in a place like Diablo with BIG stunts, that they really don't have any clue what they're getting themselves into.


Thank you.


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## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

bear said:


> If that's the whole point, it would have been most eloquently served by either a person-to-person chat with the management (hard to do, sure), or a physical letter sent via snail-mail to the same.
> 
> Posting on the internet is NOT the way to be taken seriously as trying to contribute constructively to a potentially bad situation.


If you had read the OP's post, he clearly stated: "No one from the park would even come out to talk to me." Posting on DH forums was constructive, especially since many of Diablo's constituents became aware of the situation. It even caused Shawn from Diablo to post on Ridemonkey. I would say the message got "taken seriously" as seen by the reactions here and on Ridemonkey.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

Cable0guy said:


> If you had read the OP's post, he clearly stated...


I've read the whole thread (here and there) and I know that's what was said. That's way I parenthetically noted that it's not easy to do oft-times.

It's VERY good that DFR commented officially.

I have no doubt he wasn't able to talk to someone usefully last weekend on-site.

I also don't know how he presented himself then, there, either. I wasn't there. I can't know.

I DO HOPE there's a constructive result from the fiasco. This country's history with bike-trail-use-conflicts being what is I'm WARY of other results.


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## scaryfast (Apr 23, 2004)

I don't think anybody is implying that suit should be filed. If anything, people are speculating at would COULD happen if SHEET did hit the fan. I agree that suit should not be filled but as the OP is stating, he just wanted an apology and a helmet to be replaced. I don't think that's really asking for so much when his own safety was compromised by the lack of action on behalf of DFP.


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## k1creeker (Jul 30, 2005)

Prettym1k3 said:


> dowst,
> 
> I really don't think you understand the ramifications of filing a lawsuit such as this to the entire mountain bicycling community.
> 
> ...


Well said,
I can't believe the word lawsuit has even been raised in this thread given the potential shutdown of thousands of acres of recreational opportunities in Connecticut due to another case of rider negligence. For those that don't know, all you need to do is google "Maribeth Blonski"

You need a new helmet. Sometimes stuff just happens. Scout blind drops...especially on opening day. This is not a safe sport nor should it be expected to be made so.


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## deadatbirth (Jul 23, 2007)

bear said:


> It's VERY good that DFR commented officially.


did you read their response? they might have as well said nothing.


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## Prettym1k3 (Oct 11, 2005)

scaryfast said:


> I don't think anybody is implying that suit should be filed. If anything, people are speculating at would COULD happen if SHEET did hit the fan. I agree that suit should not be filled but as the OP is stating, he just wanted an apology and a helmet to be replaced. I don't think that's really asking for so much when his own safety was compromised by the lack of action on behalf of DFP.


You have to remember, though, that legally speaking... it's the same as a car accident. What do lawyers, cops, and your parents when you get your driver's license tell you...

"If you ever get into a car accident, do NOT accept blame, and DO NOT apologize." Apologizing or replacing his equipment could have admitted fault, and hence, given him serious grounds for a law suit, and this whole thing could have blown up in Diablo's face for doing "the right thing."

In the end, we don't live in a world of right and wrong. We live in a world of what can legally be proved, and what can't. And legally speaking, Diablo did exactly what it should have done. Understandably, the OP is pissed off, and I would be too. But I see why Diablo responded the way that they did. It's safer for them, and it keeps the park open to hundreds if not thousands of other riders, all by pissing off one client.

Plus, you have to consider... dozens or hundreds of riders in a day will change a trail/track/course. If a lawsuit were filed in a bigger case like this, where does it end? If someone comes down an open trail, but all of the sudden there's a new line, or a pot hole, or some huge rock in the middle of the trail... is that the park's responsibility? Absolutely not. Going down that path is a slippery slope...

Business is business, and the government and country we live in is legalistic. Not moralistic (is that even a word)?

It's no longer about what's morally right, but what can be won in court. Very sad, but very true.


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## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

Dougie said:


> While it certainly sucks that this guy got hurt, everyone seems to forget that the first thing you do when you ride one of these parks is sign a waiver. Short of an employee of the park clubbing you over the head and causing injury, there's not much you can do in terms of legal action. They make you sign a waiver so that you can't sue them if anything happens.
> 
> Continue to argue about it though, it's entertaining. The pussification of lawsuit-happy, blame-it-on-someone-else America never ceases to amaze me.


waivers and disclaimers mean absolutely NIL in courts.


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## freeriderB (Jan 9, 2004)

*waiver and what if*



ratmonkey said:


> waivers and disclaimers mean absolutely NIL in courts.


...agreed...signing a waiver does not give the park the right to be negligent (whether bike park, ski resort, amusement park...etc). They can't just say the customer is inherently "Assuming Risk" , therefore we can just sit back to see what happens.


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## ettore (Nov 13, 2004)

Has nobody congratulated the OP on his godliness on a bike? If I jumped into that disaster, I'd probably have died ... and this guy walks away with a partially jacked helmet. I've run across things like that on an XC trail where I am going like 15km/h and ate **** like it was my job ... this guy jumps into it blind; no sweat.

Pretty questionable way to close a trail, could have just nailed a 2x8 to the bridge and made it obviously impassable. I don't see how laying branches on a trail will discourage poachers anyways, would take like 2 minutes to clear that and it'd be ready for a lifetime of poaching.


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## masterofnone (Jun 21, 2009)

I see both sides of the coin here. I'm more of a cautious rider ("code" for older, acutely aware of my lack of skills and battered and bruised enough to know my limits) so I'm used to checking stunts out first. I agree any bike park who accepts responsibility for mishaps creates their own demise, but a comprehensive sweep of every trail should have been done. Someone dropped the ball, they offered compensation in the form of a new helmet, I personally would have been satisfied, that's probably more than most. Some branches laid upon the tranny is a crappy deterrent, why wouldn't they use that orange fencing or other blockage on the ladder bridge?


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

I did not get a helmet. However, I have to give Diablo huge props for the maintanance done this week. They really stepped up in my mind. The park was in the best condition I've seen it. Everything was groomed and maintained that I rode. I was very happy to see that they listened to the criticsm and corrected the issues. I didnt ride every trail but from what we saw they really cleaned things up.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

Thanks for the update jimarin.


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

i think the current theory(guess) is that there was originally something blocking the takeoff as well, but somebody unauthorized moved it, but then gave up when they saw the blocked landing,and just rode away.It looks like something grumpy militant hikers would do, is diablo open to hikers?


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## Dougie (Aug 29, 2004)

jimarin said:


> I have to give Diablo huge props for the maintanance done this week.


Agreed. I rode all over the mountain Saturday morning and everything was in real good shape.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Sue the motherfvckers!!!!!!!!























Not srs.




















Maybe srs.


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## alldownhillfromhere (May 3, 2011)

tacubaya said:


> Sue the motherfvckers!!!!!!!!


That's a good way to get your trails shut down 
That's the problem with this country... everybody is SO sue happy that you cant let a person step on your property for fear that if they get hurt they will sue you.
I would love to open my land up to the public... but cant, because without a doubt some idiot will trip over their shoelace, get a scratch and sue you for several million
Its really sad it has come to this.

.


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