# experience with XACD frames/parts?



## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

after doing some research on the XACD ti products, i've read of people saying their frames and forks cracked, others stating they are just fine or even great, that the forks have been redesigned for better strength etc.

my main concern is weight and geometry, and longtime experience regarding durability. does anyone here own a XACD Ti MTB frame? does anyone know the top tube lengths for several sizes? and are the rigid forks suspension-geo corrected?

i wanna build up some decent light Ti rigid bike but dont wanna spend the big ca$h on litespeed and merlin.


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

*I only trust Morati...*




Max said:


> after doing some research on the XACD ti products, i've read of people saying their frames and forks cracked, others stating they are just fine or even great, that the forks have been redesigned for better strength etc.
> 
> my main concern is weight and geometry, and longtime experience regarding durability. does anyone here own a XACD Ti MTB frame? does anyone know the top tube lengths for several sizes? and are the rigid forks suspension-geo corrected?
> 
> i wanna build up some decent light Ti rigid bike but dont wanna spend the big ca$h on litespeed and merlin.


None of their forks, frames, stems, handlebars have ever been broken (cranks were a big mistake...), Miguel Martinez, Thomas Frischneckt use them, it's not too expensive ex-factory. I have a slightly used V-brake only fork for sale. I live only a few hundred kms from you...

I ride a Morati road frame, fork, have M-Bar, Classic, MTB fork. My friend rides a 1.3, another a 1.4, another a softtail... Good stuff, ex-soviet hi-tech, made in a gas cooker factory(!) along side of Boeing jet engine parts in Moravia... This is Eastern Europe!

(I hope the image loads up!)

-b


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

well, morati is a great company for sure, but i really wanna keep costs down. and XACD seem to be a big company producing for a lot of other manufacturers. and XACD can build custom mfor no extra charge


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

The Morati fork is an ideal for a frame designed for 80 mm forks. A little too long for old frames designed for 63 mm, and makes almost roadbike-like head tube angle in some 2004 frames (eg. Kona Kula). Rides well, if you're a tough guy, you can use it all day... I'm sure you can't get the Chinese fork for 250 euros, and this one will surely last longer even if it has been used for a year. The only problem with titanium is that even if you weld all parts the same, some will be defective due to contamination, so you need to x-ray every weld. The Chinese don't have this technology, hence Boeing doesn't order parts from XACD...

-b


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*greybicycle.com*



Max said:


> well, morati is a great company for sure, but i really wanna keep costs down. and XACD seem to be a big company producing for a lot of other manufacturers. and XACD can build custom mfor no extra charge


hey Max,
send Didier from greybicycle.com a mail. he has some VERY nice Ti bikes and parts. he's in Switzerland and i saw/rode those bikes...one word: awesome!
tell him Nino sent you, that also should help


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

*nothing like someone asking about XACD...*

and the moron club responds about someone else instead.

Spicer Cycles has their Ti forks (which folks love) made by XACD and Aerolite in canada has their stuff (frames, forks, stems, posts) made by XACD also.

Also if you search the archives of the old forum format, you'll find lots of threads regarding XACD and an mtbr member who used to flog their products heavily and had crappy customer service named Timinwisconsin.


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

thanks everyone for the input. i know there a lot of Ti companies out there, but i guess when it comes down to price and cost, nothing even comes close to XACD: around € 300 for a hardtail frame!
i dont wanna build it up as my No.1 WW-racer, rather as a cool everyday bike that wont be affected by salt and corrosion, maybe use it for some easy XC races, paired with the extra BLING-BLING factor 

the guy from XACD told me they used to make airborne frames, and they look sweeeet indeed (that rhymes, hah!)

i know didier from the board, but like morati and other companies - while their products surely are pieces of skilled and uniue craftsmenship - he probably won't meet my tight budget.

here's the airborne black widow









loos really nice and should make for some extra comfort, but is claimed 1710 g in my size


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

here's another airborne, the regular one which should also be available at XACD, and 1530 g according to airborne









XACD's versions of these frames look the same BTW


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## top_ring (Feb 9, 2004)

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that the Airbourne frames were using "seamed" tubes for there frames. Instead of seamless (Merlin, Litespeed etc.). XACD... a lesser quality perhaps, but affordable. If you go for it, let us know how it works out.


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Max said:


> after doing some research on the XACD ti products, i've read of people saying their frames and forks cracked, others stating they are just fine or even great, that the forks have been redesigned for better strength etc.


But that holds true for about every make and product. Tilon had problems with their forks (I believe Spicer had several broken) but they corrected that. I have not heard of a Tilon frame breaking.  


Max said:


> my main concern is weight and geometry, and longtime experience regarding durability. does anyone here own a XACD Ti MTB frame? does anyone know the top tube lengths for several sizes? and are the rigid forks suspension-geo corrected?
> 
> i wanna build up some decent light Ti rigid bike but dont wanna spend the big ca$h on litespeed and merlin.


I have a XACD (Xi'An Chang Da) Tilon Ti frame, custom made.I told them (through Hilset) what I wanted and they made it.
You can find the standard frame sizes on Hilset. That's where I ordered mine.
And by the way, they are not exactly cheap, at least not the custom ones  

Some pics of my Tilon frame can be found here


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Max said:


> thanks everyone for the input. i know there a lot of Ti companies out there, but i guess when it comes down to price and cost, nothing even comes close to XACD: around ? 300 for a hardtail frame!
> i dont wanna build it up as my No.1 WW-racer, rather as a cool everyday bike that wont be affected by salt and corrosion, maybe use it for some easy XC races, paired with the extra BLING-BLING factor
> 
> the guy from XACD told me they used to make airborne frames, and they look sweeeet indeed (that rhymes, hah!)
> ...


As long as I can remember Airbornes are made HERE
Compare the frame below with an Airborne one..I rest my case


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Max said:


> here's another airborne, the regular one which should also be available at XACD, and 1530 g according to airborne
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are wrong Max, Tilon has nothing whatsoever to do with Airborne or their frames.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*thanks for the moron...*



DeeEight said:


> and the moron club responds about someone else instead.
> 
> Spicer Cycles has their Ti forks (which folks love) made by XACD and Aerolite in canada has their stuff (frames, forks, stems, posts) made by XACD also.
> 
> Also if you search the archives of the old forum format, you'll find lots of threads regarding XACD and an mtbr member who used to flog their products heavily and had crappy customer service named Timinwisconsin.


do you have a problem ?
he asks about a cheapo Ti-manufacturer and i tell him another source which is just a couple of hours away from his home, that's all. and i'm sure he gets a better bike from Didier than from over there...if they are indeed more expensive has to be seen. i'd say let Max decide if that's a good idea or not, ok?
have a nice day!


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

these hi-light frames look even nicer! has anyone ever tried to polish a ti frame? is that sth you can do on your own? or is it rather exhausting and time-consuming?


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

The moron club takes the argument further... If an American rider writes that its great to own an American product, why shouldn't I, Nino or possibly Max be proud to own one made a few hudred kms from his home instead of 10.000? If one can say that a Yeti is a Yeti, I can also say that these parts are really much better than the far eastern mass produced alternative...

I visit a lot of bicycle trade shows, and always noted that year after year Airborne has once again stole one of its competitors idea. XACD, and the other manufacturer that produces Airborne stuff just makes whatever they get in AutoCAD. There is no R&D dept. there. Their products are nice, but its nothing to be bragging about...

Polishing titanium: yes I tried it with a stem and results were ok. The only problem is that it's a nightmere to keep it looking nice. Sandblasted titanium is much better in this respect. I wash my road bike once a year...

-moron#1


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

ok, i think i've made my decision: XACD frame "VooDoo" (allegedly they also made the voodoo frames  ) with the following geometry

18.5" 
393(c-c) 
469 (c-t)
71° steerer angle
73° seat angle
559 measured TT
584 effective TT
425 seastays
1058 wheelbase
32 BB drop
120 steerer tube length
38 fork rake
81 brake boss distance
364 Dropout to bottom of Bridge Tube 
250 Dropout to Brake Boss

all measurements in mm

this is very similiar to my present XC race HT (585 mm TT, 1060 wheelbase, 71°/73,5°, 420 mm stays)

looking forward to ordering it, though it might still take some time and money saving


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

macsi said:


> Polishing titanium: yes I tried it with a stem and results were ok. The only problem is that it's a nightmere to keep it looking nice. Sandblasted titanium is much better in this respect. I wash my road bike once a year...


what were the problems? i thought THE big advantage of Ti is that it doesnt corrode, i.e. wouldnt become dull (like aluminium)


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

BTW: do you think wishbone seatstays are lighter than conventional ones? maybe not as there arent that many companies using them on their bikes. a friend of mine has a 10 year old rocky (maybe older!) and is still racing it from time to time. his frame has beautiful wishbone stays.....


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

macsi said:


> The moron club takes the argument further... If an American rider writes that its great to own an American product, why shouldn't I, Nino or possibly Max be proud to own one made a few hudred kms from his home instead of 10.000? If one can say that a Yeti is a Yeti, I can also say that these parts are really much better than the far eastern mass produced alternative...
> 
> I visit a lot of bicycle trade shows, and always noted that year after year Airborne has once again stole one of its competitors idea. XACD, and the other manufacturer that produces Airborne stuff just makes whatever they get in AutoCAD. There is no R&D dept. there. Their products are nice, but its nothing to be bragging about...
> 
> ...


The Chinese and Taiwanese are great in assimilating and adapting other peoples ideas, and who can blame them.

Bottom line is, Ok , the welds and overall finish are not as good as those on my Moots or Litespeed, and there is no internal butting and it seems a bit archaic , but what the heck, the frame looks nice , will probably ride just as good as the others mentioned, especially if you order custom where you can specify what type, tube size and Ti alloy to use. I also have a personal logo on the head tube and chose another type of dropout and s-bended downtubes..

And this at a fraction of the price (although the custom Tilon I have is priced around 1200 Euros - 1600 USD ) of an US-made custom Ti frame . The Tilon is even lighter than my Litespeed 
As a second or third bike, I feel you cannot go wrong choosing for Tilon.

ps : Max , normally the Tilon frames are sandblasted, but at a small price they can polish them for you... some manufacturers re-finish your frame at your expense if it gets badly scatched (Moots does this) although Ti wears very hard.. but it does happen


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

Titanium doesn't corrode or oxidize, but even a small amount of grease dulls the polished finish. I wouldn't choose anything but sandblasting for the finish. As Big Bad Wolf said: titanium has very high surface hardness, which means that I don't use a chainstay protector for my road bike and all the chain did during 3 years of intensive use was to polish the surface somewhat. The 6Al/4V alloy used for the dropouts is so hard, that even tool hardened steel cannot make a mark in it - maybe only with a hammer, which I haven't tried...

I use to have a Russian made titanium MTB frame (Cascade) 4 years ago, which broke after a half a season. I cut the tubes to make seatposts, hubs, stems from them. I distroyed a lot of quality sawblades doing this and the laithe mechanic at the workshop also complained that his tools saw some damage during the fine cutting/machining process...

-b (or moron)


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

ok, so i got another email with several frame options:

- wishbone seatstays +$35 originally i wanted those, but i'm not sure if it's worth the money. are wishbone seatstays lighter or do they offer any other advantage?
- double butted tubes +$80 i think i might go for these to save some extra weight. maybe that will also increase frame life and strength
-brushed finish +$45 ok, that's purely optical, but what would you recommend? brushed finish or dull finish?


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

Dull, sandblasted for the reasons I gave above.

Concerning the two other options: Morati introduced wishbone stays on the new 1.4 and they paired it with a specially shaped top tube to provide even more vertical flex. The guy who uses it had a 1.3 before and feels a lot of difference in lateral stiffness and vertical complience. The only problem is that it's more expensive and traps mud...

Double butted tubes make sense, but in the case of Chinese frames it means the tubes are not seamless but welded from a sheet of titanium. This creates a lot of problems. Any bending on titanium must be done in a pressure chamber at a certain temperature. It is not possible to do this with the technology the Chinese have. They simply cold work the tubes. Then they cannot check the quality of the welds with chromatic inspection, though they have 5 meters of weld on the frame... I don't know if it is a good idea to ask for an elaborate manufacturing process from a company which is clearly not capable of providing it. Even Morati cannot make a double butted frame, since they cannot guarantee that the frame would be perfect and never break. Working with titanium is not so easy...I would stick with straight gauge tubing for safety, or if you really want low weight and a modest price, just forget buying a ti frame... There are a lot of good light frames on the market made from other materials 

-b


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

according to XACD, (at least) their double butted tubes are seamless

here are some pics from XACD frames, the first one is from another MTBR member (Lanpope, thx!). i think i might go for a sandblasted finish, but double butted tubes, which should save 150 g

i will also choose conventional seatstays as these are slightly lighter than monostay solutions. i'll spring for disc tabs as well, but without the disc cable routing, which should make for clean looks while keeping the possibility to upgrade to disc once i get bored by Vees


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

here'S a brushed XACD frame with the optional break-away option


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

Two pics takes in Austria...


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

sweet! really sweet! where did you go?


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

Max said:


> sweet! really sweet! where did you go?


This is the top of the pic that I cropped for you. Rode and carried it all way to the top to do the 1300 m alt. descent along the cog wheel train route to the bottom... 60-70 km/h!

-b


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Macsi, people always say i'm crazy because I use a non-suspension bike in the hills.. but I see I'm not alone 
Morati makes very nice stuf.. I have one of their handlebars since 1999...not even a scritch on it. As you say, titanium is a ***** to cut or work on , cutting that Morati bar to the desired lenght cost me a sawblade


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

The XACD frames are already lighter than I feel comfortable with. I'd use double butting to thicken the tubes at the welds, and get something stronger and stiffer. Good place to add 150g to a frame IMO.


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

sorry, didnt quite get it... the double butted tubes SAVE 150 g, instead of adding them. on the other hand you said you'd "use double butting to thicken the tubes at the welds".
so from your point of view i should get the straight gauge tubes?


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Max said:


> sorry, didnt quite get it... the double butted tubes SAVE 150 g, instead of adding them. on the other hand you said you'd "use double butting to thicken the tubes at the welds".
> so from your point of view i should get the straight gauge tubes?


The standard straight gauge tubing Tilon uses is 0.9mm thick. Butting will make the tubes thinner in the middle section. Butting titanium tubes is a very time-consuming and costly process... I wouldn't bother with it, just to save 150g  .

The straight gauge tubing is strong enough, even for Cloxxki I'm sure he will not be able to break it..

What you can also specify with Tilon is that they don't drill any holes for water bottles etc.. usually this weakens a frame, same as all the braze on's for cable guides etc... but as we all (should) know, a titanium frame is much stronger in that regard than an alu frame


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

.but after all, it's a (claimed) 150 g weight saving for only USD 80. i think we all have spent more bucks on parts that only saved a fraction the the weight. my only concern is that the frame might crack  i mean, the straight tube frame weighs in at a mere 1560g, so a DB frame would be around 1410g - almost scary light  although i dont really believe XACD's claimed weight savings, i think it's rather 70g... has anyone ever seen/ridden/etc. a DB XACD frame?


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

Max!

What do want to use your titanium bike for? I believe people have a misconception about Ti equipment. They believe that on the plus side its light and comfortable, on the down side its expensive and flexy. There is little truth in this: maybe the comfort and the price (if not from China...) 

A Ti frame will only last a long time if it's designed and manufactured perfectly from the best materials and this comes at a price. A flexy Ti frame (of fork) is a design mistake. I ride a lot of bikes and frames, and my experience is that the Ti frames I'm familiar with are just as stiff as any 1600-1700 gr aluminium frame. Though in comfort there is a noticeble difference...

In my opinion a Ti frame, fork or any other part should be ridden to the extremes: if you don't do this, you are wasting your money. For example the picture of the Morati 1.4 above was taken in 2003. It belongs to my friend (we did the tour together) who used to be the national trials champion. For more than two years he has been torturing that bike: he regularly does 1-1.5 m vertical(!) drops with it, 5-6 meter jumps and even entered a dirt jump contest with a riser bar... I also beat the hell out of my Ti fork, stem/bar. He trusts his equipment, I trust mine.

If you want just light, get scandium of carbon fiber. If you want to do things others think impossible (noone believed us at the top that we made it up the north side of the Schneeberg by bike!), if you don't want to worry when you crash and your bike lands 50 m below you, then get titanium. If built right, it will survive everything... Well, its made from Russian raw material ;-)

-b


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I find this whole morati rocks stuff rather silly as Morati is no better in terms of manufacturing experience or equipment than XACD. They're BOTH made in defence plants that make parts for russian-origin fighter aircraft (most of china's airforce is derived from soviet designs). XACD is the actual factory though, while Morati is a brand name slapped on stuff made for them by another factory. So you're arguing which is better, the boutique brand that orders the high quality stuff in small numbers and makes an effort to ensure quality control of stuff they sell to consumers, or the mega factory that'll make the stuff to whatever specs the customer is willing to pay, and are willing to sell to whole brands (airborne) or individual consumers.

I used to be a Morati dealer.. I know where the stuff is made, and how its made and who's making it, and they're no more/less competent than XACD is. And when Morati was a new brand, couldn't give the stuff away. Nobody trusted them at all. And given how the cranks turned out, one of only three products they offered, can't blame that attitude.


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

the intended use is XC riding, mainly training but some racing (on smooth courses) as well. i don't do many tours, on most of my rides training time, heart rate and duration of intervals are what matter, not the altitude or kms i did.

surely, if i wanted just a lightweight rigid bike, i'd look into scandium frames. but i already have a Sc race HT, a triple butted alloy race fully, a carbon road bike and an brutally-stiff alloy CX bike. i think it's time to try Ti.

a couple of weeks ago i was testing a steel singlespeed HT and kinda loved the comfortable ride (unfortunately i cracked the frame at the rear dropouts, but that might have been the result of the equation prototype + strong disc-brakes + hardcore trail riding + some drops + max beating the $#!t out of the bike  ).

as my bike won't be a superlight build, maybe i should just get the straight gauge frame and enjoy the ride....


BTW: Macsi, if you should ever come to vienna, drop me an email and we might just hit the local trails if you like!


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

I usually spend 2-3 weeks in the Wienerwald every year. Last year it was around Laaben, Schöpfl, Anninger, Fadental, etc. The year before that the Schneeberg, Semmering, etc We also go once.twice a year to the Saltzburg region: Hinterglemm (WGMB!), Kaprun, Zell am Zee... For some places I don't even need a map anymore... ;-)


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> I find this whole morati rocks stuff rather silly as Morati is no better in terms of manufacturing experience or equipment than XACD. They're BOTH made in defence plants that make parts for russian-origin fighter aircraft (most of china's airforce is derived from soviet designs). XACD is the actual factory though, while Morati is a brand name slapped on stuff made for them by another factory. So you're arguing which is better, the boutique brand that orders the high quality stuff in small numbers and makes an effort to ensure quality control of stuff they sell to consumers, or the mega factory that'll make the stuff to whatever specs the customer is willing to pay, and are willing to sell to whole brands (airborne) or individual consumers.
> 
> I used to be a Morati dealer.. I know where the stuff is made, and how its made and who's making it, and they're no more/less competent than XACD is. And when Morati was a new brand, couldn't give the stuff away. Nobody trusted them at all. And given how the cranks turned out, one of only three products they offered, can't blame that attitude.


I think you don't know what you're talking about, so I won't argue... Just for the record: all Morati equipment is made in the Mora factory in Moravia.

-b


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Max said:


> the intended use is XC riding, mainly training but some racing (on smooth courses) as well. i don't do many tours, on most of my rides training time, heart rate and duration of intervals are what matter, not the altitude or kms i did.
> 
> as my bike won't be a superlight build, maybe i should just get the straight gauge frame and enjoy the ride....


Max, I think you will enjoy the bikes made by Tilon/XACD, don't worry. 
Have it made to your specifications, butted or not, brushed or polished, disc brake tabs or not, engrave your name in it, etc.. etc..
Make sure that when you order, you get a confirmation drawing from them, they do this,check out if all the measurements are correct and everything.

The drawing should look something like this.. (if you want a hi-res drawing of mine, let me know)


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

i think the drawing is a bit of an overkill for me. i'll pick the standard voodoo 18,5" frame with a slightly shorter head tube (110 mm instead of 120 mm). the TT length, the wheelbase, the angles, everything is almost like on my race HT!

here's the size chart (that's the model they produced for VooDoo cycles - do they still exist????)


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Max said:


> i think the drawing is a bit of an overkill for me. i'll pick the standard voodoo 18,5" frame with a slightly shorter head tube (110 mm instead of 120 mm). the TT length, the wheelbase, the angles, everything is almost like on my race HT!
> 
> here's the size chart (that's the model they produced for VooDoo cycles - do they still exist????)


Mine is also around the 18.5 incher on your list , give or take .5 a cm here and there , I have a 112mm head tube and I also specced the top tube to be the same diameter (38.1 mm) as the down tube, to make the headset area extra stiff. You can see this on the pic I attached, they had to ovalize the top tube near the seatpost to connect it to the seatpost tubes..
I'm 1m79 last time I checked . I just took the measurements of my favorite bike and had them make a carbon, (euhm titanium) copy of that, adding a few custom thingies along the way.


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

hmmm the welds arent the nicest looking ones i've seen so far, but ok for that price... maybe they can sand them down a bit/smoothen them. why didnt you choose some special machined seat stays like in the pic shown below? do you think they are heavier? i really wanna give my bike a unique look.

is your frame double butted? if not, how comes yours is so much lighter than the sample from hilset.be (1780g)?


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

hmmm the welds arent the nicest looking ones i've seen so far, but ok for that price... maybe they can sand them down a bit/smoothen them. why didnt you choose some special machined seat stays like in the pic shown below? do you think they are heavier? i really wanna give my bike a unique look.

is your frame double butted? if not, how comes yours is so much lighter than the sample from hilset.be (1780g)?


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Max said:


> hmmm the welds arent the nicest looking ones i've seen so far, but ok for that price... maybe they can sand them down a bit/smoothen them. why didnt you choose some special machined seat stays like in the pic shown below? do you think they are heavier? i really wanna give my bike a unique look.
> 
> is your frame double butted? if not, how comes yours is so much lighter than the sample from hilset.be (1780g)?


I have a Moots and a Litespeed as well , so I DO know what fantastic welds  look like..  
The ones on the Tilon are good, evenly applied , but not great. 
But then the price is about 1/3th that of a Moots... you figure it out 

No, my frame is straight gauge. the 1780 g is the weight of a standard 19.5 incher weighed more than a year ago when Hilset got his first frames . 
Since then the weights of the frames he got delivered have gone down.
Mine is a custom frame and weighs 1548g (1570 with titanium brake studs - see pics on my fotopic site) , in size it's between 18 and 18.5 inch. I also chose the dropouts as seen on the softstay frame. I wanted plain tubes in the back triangle , so no specially machined stuff.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

macsi said:


> I think you don't know what you're talking about, so I won't argue... Just for the record: all Morati equipment is made in the Mora factory in Moravia.
> 
> -b


yes I know what I'm talking about, apparently you don't though.

I have my dealer kit from 1997 right here in front of me, what do you have? Mora Moravia (which is the name of the company btw, Morati is just the brand name for the bicycle stuff), is in the Czech republic, which was part of the warsaw pact alliance of nations, and thus under the sphere of influence of the USSR and its aviation division (which makes the bike stuff) for the most part, turned out licensed versions of soviet engines, or made parts for those designs. That (and cooking appliances) are the recent manufacturing areas of the company for the past couple decades prior to getting into doing bicycle parts/frames in 1995.


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## b12yan88 (Jun 28, 2004)

Max said:


> i think the drawing is a bit of an overkill for me. i'll pick the standard voodoo 18,5" frame with a slightly shorter head tube (110 mm instead of 120 mm). the TT length, the wheelbase, the angles, everything is almost like on my race HT!
> 
> here's the size chart (that's the model they produced for VooDoo cycles - do they still exist????)


I know this is off topic, but 
Would you consider covering TI in paint instead of leaving it naked?


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> yes I know what I'm talking about, apparently you don't though.
> 
> I have my dealer kit from 1997 right here in front of me, what do you have? Mora Moravia (which is the name of the company btw, Morati is just the brand name for the bicycle stuff), is in the Czech republic, which was part of the warsaw pact alliance of nations, and thus under the sphere of influence of the USSR and its aviation division (which makes the bike stuff) for the most part, turned out licensed versions of soviet engines, or made parts for those designs. That (and cooking appliances) are the recent manufacturing areas of the company for the past couple decades prior to getting into doing bicycle parts/frames in 1995.


This is almost ok, but you wrote that they import frames made elsewhere which is surely false... I visited the factory (bike division) six times, tested pre-production frames... I think I have more info than a dealer who imported stuff from them 8 years ago. I know why they went in the bike biz in 1992. Actually cooking appliences have been manufactured there for ages: my mother used to have a gas cooker which had the label "Mora - Olomuc, Czechslovakia". I don't understand why you think noone can have more knowledge than you...

-b


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

macsi said:


> This is almost ok, but you wrote that they import frames made elsewhere which is surely false... I visited the factory (bike division) six times, tested pre-production frames... I think I have more info than a dealer who imported stuff from them 8 years ago. I know why they went in the bike biz in 1992. Actually cooking appliences have been manufactured there for ages: my mother used to have a gas cooker which had the label "Mora - Olomuc, Czechslovakia". I don't understand why you think noone can have more knowledge than you...
> 
> -b


Don't put words in my mouth unless you can back it up.

Where did I write that they import frames ?! I said Morati is the brand name slapped on frames made by another factory, and that's accurate. There is NO bicycle exclusive division to Mora Moravia. Its products are made by the Mora Aero divsion under contract. There's no rule that says other factories for a brand have to be in another country to be imported from. Being across the region/city works just as well.


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

I must have misunderstood you too DeeEight but that was also the impression I got from your long post (that Morati did not make their own frames)
You said :


> XACD is the actual factory though, while Morati is a brand name slapped on stuff made for them by another factory


It is perhaps more accurrate to state that Morati is a subdivision from a bigger company..

It's not like Airborne (who has their frames made by hanglun NOT by XACD!) and a multitude of other European and US brands.. Ti Sports Tech is another company that makes frames for a lot of brands..

for the mere mortals among us, Specialized alu (bweek) frames are made in taiwan..

in either case, it does not really matter who makes the frames, as long as they are good, wouldn't you agree


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

Mora Aerospace (not Mora Aero!) does have a bicycle division! They design and market bicycle components. The parts are made by the employees of Mora Aerospace, who also make titanium parts for jet engines. On the same machines with the same skilled workers. The quality control tests done on the Morati parts are the same as reqired by Honeywell (Boeing). This makes the difference -IMHO...

Someone wanted to see some welds...


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

b12yan88 said:


> I know this is off topic, but
> Would you consider covering TI in paint instead of leaving it naked?


For me personally, never in a million years !

part of the charm Ti has for me , is it's unique colour.

Ti does not corrode (well it does but nothing to worry about) so no protection is needed.

Plus painting a frame adds 60-100g !


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

b12yan88 said:


> I know this is off topic, but
> Would you consider covering TI in paint instead of leaving it naked?


NEVER EVER in my entire life


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## Setzer (Jan 6, 2004)

Max said:


> i think the drawing is a bit of an overkill for me. i'll pick the standard voodoo 18,5" frame with a slightly shorter head tube (110 mm instead of 120 mm). the TT length, the wheelbase, the angles, everything is almost like on my race HT!
> 
> here's the size chart (that's the model they produced for VooDoo cycles - do they still exist????)


VooDoo does still excist, but the Ti D-Jab and Loa models are replaced by the Sobo and Limba as top of the line ht and cross scandium frames.

Here's a piece of a mail reply I got about Voodoo from a former employee. I asked where my own alu Bokor came from (factory) since it is has a made in US decal (FWIW it's from Anodising inc).

"Ti bikes (D'Jab, Loa) were from China. The titanium is from the Baoji
Strategic Metal Works, and were welded by a subsidiary. Though I believe the very first D'jabs actually came from Taiwan, but they looked different - they had plate style rear dropouts."

_This subsidiary could be XACD. Your word file does have the typo Djab on the 14" geospecs_

I'll try to locate the '97 VooDoo catalog in my "archive" to look at the geo they where using. The measurments of the 17.2'' look quite familiar to me from the head, if I cannot find the catalog I'll go out and measure my own bike.

You an see the current line up of VooDoo at www.voodoocycles.net (there should be a geo spec there also, the lineup hasn't changed much from previous years)

Some of the trademarks for Voodoo is the reversed seattube (opening facing away from rearwheel, and mud), rear derailleurcable going through the brakepost, and via a guide located at the seattube. I can take some pics of these things if you want.

Hope this is enough info on the Ti VooDoo frame. If you buy it I would like to know if it has all these things. The D'jab was and is still one of the bikes I would like to own (already have a Bokor and a Wanga).

cheers
Richard.


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Setzer said:


> VooDoo does still excist, but the Ti D-Jab and Loa models are replaced by the Sobo and Limba as top of the line ht and cross scandium frames.
> cheers
> Richard.


I found these pics from Voodoo Ti bikes in my archives..


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

cool bikes... what is it that makes the D-jab's cable routing so special any pics?


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Max said:


> cool bikes... what is it that makes the D-jab's cable routing so special any pics?


No more close-up pics I'm afraid..  
The bike on top has an entirely closed brake line, so it uses a disc-brake-cable-router type of adapter thingy to route the cable along the existing v-brake stops

The frame does look like the XACD/Tilon ones


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

Setzer? voodoo owners? any pics?

check this FRM bike's shift cable routing. with a nokon liner this should work very well and save another few grams








is that the way to go for my cable routing.....?


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Yes, that FRM cable guiding looks neat. Is that shift cable running with an outer liner from the front to the rear? Using Nokon will keep it relatively light (a lot lighter than with conventional outers when you run the outer along the whole bike ) while covering the whole distance. Is that your purpose?

In my opinion, having the cables on or along the top tube is the best way. 
Look at my Litespeed here, they fit nicely along the side..the outers are trimmed so as not to make too big a curve.

I have my cables on the top of the top tube on my Tilon.

Also with the Moots they run on top of the top tube '(see second pic)

It's neat, and it doesn't get dirty from below.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Max said:


> NEVER EVER in my entire life


Some brands have done precisely that though... Titan (usa brand, most well known for #1 teaching sandvik sports how to weld titanium bicycle frames and #2 being big in bmx frames in the 1980s) did it for example on their Ti compe mtb frames.










Also eclipse (a canadian brand) did it on a few of their Ti road frames to be able to offer models with the same paint scheme in both aluminium and titanium.


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

i for my part prefer having the cables on the downside of the top tube. there is nothing "in the way" if you are looking at your bike from above or the side, they are almost invisible. and what's more, you can sit on your frame without scratching the paint or the frame itself.

but i will drop the idea of having extra couble mounts on the side of my seat tube. i really wann get a plain look, i even refused to get S-bent seat stays.... right now, i even wonder if i should get disc brake mounts or save the weight instead.....

BBW, do you know of any DB-ti MTB frames? still agueing with myself if i should get the frame double-butted or straight gauge


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> Some brands have done precisely that though... Titan (usa brand, most well known for #1 teaching sandvik sports how to weld titanium bicycle frames and #2 being big in bmx frames in the 1980s) did it for example on their Ti compe mtb frames.


so, would you consider this being a drool-worthy bike that will (optically) outlast all those alloy frames with the "fashionable" paint-schemes? 

for me, a Ti bike mustn't be painted, but that's MHO


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> Some brands have done precisely that though... Titan (usa brand, most well known for #1 teaching sandvik sports how to weld titanium bicycle frames and #2 being big in bmx frames in the 1980s) did it for example on their Ti compe mtb frames.
> 
> Also eclipse (a canadian brand) did it on a few of their Ti road frames to be able to offer models with the same paint scheme in both aluminium and titanium.


Oh yes, even litespeed offers their frames with other colors, but titanium should be without paint, or as in your example, at most a little bit here and there, to accentuate the metal.
.
But I prefer mine *raw* 

_ps: Love the Titan frame, its kinda special.. reminds me of Jeff Jones' masterpieces_


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Max said:


> so, would you consider this being a drool-worthy bike that will (optically) outlast all those alloy frames with the "fashionable" paint-schemes?
> 
> for me, a Ti bike mustn't be painted, but that's MHO


drool worthy? Doubtful... I just like their frames and it suited my purpose nicely when it came to rebuilding my ugly theme bike after I sold the previous Mountain Bik carbon frame to mtnwing1 for a godawful sum (4 digits before the decimal, and it was US dollars).

Thus I replaced this...










with this...


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## dmrun148 (Oct 4, 2004)

*where the hell are the forks?*

This should probably be self explanatory, but I'm not that smart. All I want to do is order a ti fork, where is that link on the xacd site? To I need to go to the hillset site or something? Can Someone help me out with the link? Thanks.


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

here you go:

http://www.xacd.com.cn/product.asp?rootcl=1&cls=12


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

dmrun148 said:


> This should probably be self explanatory, but I'm not that smart. All I want to do is order a ti fork, where is that link on the xacd site? To I need to go to the hillset site or something? Can Someone help me out with the link? Thanks.


you can find all the titanium links you need on my titanium links page  

Tilon XACD is among them

ps: if anyone knows of a Ti manufacturer that is not mentioned, plz pm me.


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> drool worthy? Doubtful... I just like their frames and it suited my purpose nicely when it came to rebuilding my ugly theme bike after I sold the previous Mountain Bik carbon frame to mtnwing1 for a godawful sum (4 digits before the decimal, and it was US dollars).
> 
> Thus I replaced this...
> 
> ...


As with many things, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I would certainly go for the second frame.. but that green saddle...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarghhhhh


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

funky-fresh colors... makes me feel relieved i was wayyyy too young to be interested in bikes back then


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## dmrun148 (Oct 4, 2004)

HEy, both of the links are great...and neither help a whole lot. I've been to the xacd site...and there seems to be no ordering info or prices. I've been to the hilset page...and it is not in english. Can anyone help me out here? Such as, if you have a xacd fork (or hillset) how did you get it? how much did it cost (If the person who owns that awesome ti SS pic'd earlier can tell me how much that frame and fork cost that would be sweet.)


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

yes the sella italia saddle is major uncomfy too... its in a bin now and I'm running a velo titanium instead that's much nicer.


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

XACD: fork is $135, frame $355, but FOB Shaanxi (China). expect additional costs for money transfer and shipping (~$130)

Hilset = made by XACD


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## carlos (Jan 12, 2004)

what about sibex sports?? adam craig and travis brown race their ti forks at norba last year with great sucess.

www.sibexsports.com (its russian too).


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

well sibex appears to be a russian brand but the use of american grade alloy tubing is unusual for a russian parts maker (as russia has some nicer Ti alloys), plus from some of the pics, I'd say the products are likely made by XACD also. Usually russian brands stick to russian alloys.


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## Max (Jan 13, 2004)

yep, they look like XACD forks...


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

Max said:


> BBW, do you know of any DB-ti MTB frames? still agueing with myself if i should get the frame double-butted or straight gauge


Not many seamless DB-Ti frames around for a very simple reason: it can only be done cold worked for a resonable price and titanium is not compatible with this method. Hence double butting cost an incredible sum of money - not the price you quoted from the Chinese.

You are also wondering about the disc tabs. I have some experience running disc on a titanium frame: unfortunately they are not positive. The problems is that both the tabs and the chainstays flex and I couldn't get as much power as with V-brakes. I tried Magura Mathas and Avid mechanics (two good brakes) and both were disappointing. With V-brakes I notice no flex from the seatstays - it's just like with modern aluminum frames...

I hope this helps...

-b


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## macsi (Dec 3, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> well sibex appears to be a russian brand but the use of american grade alloy tubing is unusual for a russian parts maker (as russia has some nicer Ti alloys), plus from some of the pics, I'd say the products are likely made by XACD also. Usually russian brands stick to russian alloys.


What the hell is "american grade alloy tubing"? And what does "nicer Ti alloys" or "russian alloys" mean? I can't find them in the Structure of Materials handbook...


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## elsnakeob (Sep 2, 2004)

*The Real Deal with XA'CD Ti Frames*

Here is what 
XI'AN CHANGDA TITANIUM PRODUCTS CO.,LTD says, offically! I think I got him mad as I tried to see what was up for real, I have emailed Moots to see if they will respond on the issue.

THE MESSAGE BELOW IS MY EMAIL CONVERSATION TO PORTER AT XA'CD; IT READS FROM THE BOTTOM UP.

I think you really are too badly! Nobody can make any for you! The fact proof you really have not any experience in Ti frames! I think you don't know what is Ti!

In fact,their some frames always is made in oversea!

Porter

----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Kilgore
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: hi

I will be sure to send it on to them. As they weld their frames custom in the USA.
I know you make an OEM frame that is why I contacted you. But it is still not a Moots.

On Jun 27, 2006, at 10:33 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Sir:
About you said these:
I deal with Moots and Titus and you are offering an inferior product,
The fact proof you really have not any experience! We are making OEM for Moots and Titus and Litespeed and Merlin,etc!
So our quality is very good!

but thank you for your time. But for generic Ti frames, without suspension, I am dealing with Brew Cycles out of Asheville, NC. I get
a basic frame with V-bosses for 359.00 when I buy bulk. I understand your price if you are selling 5 or 10 frames but when some one buys
25 frames that warrant more of a discount. Again, thanks for your time.
Since the costs of Ti material still is madly adding in world market,so I think your USD359.00 is impossible! Your words is
not real!

Porter


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

macsi said:


> What the hell is "american grade alloy tubing"? And what does "nicer Ti alloys" or "russian alloys" mean? I can't find them in the Structure of Materials handbook...


Oh the Russians have their own alloys allright, taking the usual grades but adding a few of their own. You just need to look better:thumbsup:


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

elsnakeob said:


> Here is what
> XI'AN CHANGDA TITANIUM PRODUCTS CO.,LTD says, offically! I think I got him mad as I tried to see what was up for real, I have emailed Moots to see if they will respond on the issue.
> 
> THE MESSAGE BELOW IS MY EMAIL CONVERSATION TO PORTER AT XA'CD; IT READS FROM THE BOTTOM UP.
> ...


Are you 100% sure you were dealing with someone who represented Xang'da?
:skep:

Moots are welding their own frames, at least they were when Kent Eriksen was still there. Perhaps they are making OEM parts like bosses and stuff, but most of these are done by Paragon.
For some makes I could understand that their entry level Ti frame is perhaps (partly) made by Tilon, but Moots not really has an entry-level frame...


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## elsnakeob (Sep 2, 2004)

*Proof is in the Puddin'*

The email address for Their rep was left in on purpose, contact him, if you don't believe, I am sure he will give you the same story.


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

elsnakeob said:


> The email address for Their rep was left in on purpose, contact him, if you don't believe, I am sure he will give you the same story.


the email address is indeed correct and "Porter" is the guy you interface with at XACD


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> Oh the Russians have their own alloys allright, taking the usual grades but adding a few of their own. You just need to look better:thumbsup:


I remember about 10 years ago, I was importing this russian brand called RVT, which had titanium hardtails and road frames. I was having a discussion on I think the rec.bicycles.tech newsgroup about titanium frames NOT made in america, and mentioned the RVT's were using a Ti 5/2 alloy that was between the USA normal choices of Ti 3-2.5 and Ti 6-4 tubing. Gary Helfrich chimes in (yes, that G.H. co-founder of Merlin, the one who lives in the treehouse in that redwood forest) about how 5-2 is a weaker material and etc etc blah blah i'm gary helfrich so i know more big dick blah blah....

Then I point out its not the 5-2 that's made in america.... its not 5% Aluminium 2% Vanadium... its 5% Aluminium 2% MANGANESE. I did try and point out it was a RUSSIAN made alloy, but apparently he wasn't the sharpest crayon in the box or couldn't grasp the concept that russian metallurgists might be able to come up with some amazing alloys all on their own, without oh, stealing them from western companies. This is of course, a few years before we found out about scandium alloys, and how the russians had been using them for decades and we're just learning of it now, ten years after the collapse of the soviet union. There was always this perception that asian countries were incapable of high-tech materials, research, production, etc. That buying chinese titanium or russian this or indian that meant sacrificing quality. Lately though, people have started to get a clue.


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Check these links out

http://www.titaniuminfogroup.co.uk/datasheets.asp


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## elsnakeob (Sep 2, 2004)

*Here is the official response from Moots*

From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 'Email from website'
Date: June 29, 2006 1:31:02 PM EDT
To: [email protected]

Hi Jake,
No, they don't. We make our frame sets here in house, and source our aerospace-grade titanium tubing from the US.
Happy trails,
[email protected]

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Kilgore" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:24 PM
Subject: 'Email from website'

Hello, does XI'AN CHANGDA TITANIUM PRODUCTS CO.,LTD. make your OEM frame sets? Very Curious, do you know if they do Merlin and others too?

Thank you for your time,
Jake Kilgore
Other Brothers Bikes.


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## Bedolaga (Mar 3, 2007)

Any news about XI'AN CHANGDA TITANIUM PRODUCTS?


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## IAmtnbikr (May 17, 2008)

XACD stem (rebadged/sold as a Profile) in use since '99 and now on it's 2nd bike with no issues...


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## heatstroke (Jul 1, 2003)

Yes I have experience.\
Ordered 5 custom ti frames. 4 were perfect - one had a very slightly misaligned bb thread on the non drive side - but it was manageable. 

Overall we're happy with the frames at the cost, welds are tidy, beadblastin is nice/ 
Be carefull with your tubeset sizes - I suggest you copy someones frame that you like. 
I'd suggest going for butted tubing - cheap for the weight savings. 

Their seat post suck in 27.2. We have bent 2 out of 2. One with a 80kg rider and one with a 60kg rider on XC riding.


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## conrad (Jan 27, 2004)

*wanted morati m-bar*

Lively debate....great to see. I have a sunn exact ti 2000 model, frame number 050 19" rebranded Morati HC 1.3 with morati fork fitted. 
What I really want is does anyone have a morati m-bar. I waited to long to finish off the bike. Result there weren't any avaliable in New Zealand. Anyone able to help. Yes I know they are rare etc.


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## j5ive (Sep 24, 2005)

where do you buy from? got a link? and how much?


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## LeonOfBristol (Oct 4, 2006)

I'm on the verge of ordering an XACD Ti singlespeed frame.

Just wondering if there was anyone out there who can shed more light on the butted tubing (it's discussed above, but no-one seems to know for sure how it's made and if it's any good).

Also, any ideas if the XACD guys can ovalize tubing? My biggest fear with a ti bike is it being all noodly, so I'm thinking of an oversize downtube, ovalised at both ends.

Is there anything else I should really be thinking about (apart from geomtery, obviously, which I'm going to copy from a 100mm fork correct Kula)?

Some things I'm not sure about:

- do I need a cross brace for the disk brake?
- is a downtube gusset required (this bike will be very XC only. Fast rides in the local woods and some racing. I can't see the need myself but they do seem to be the fashion. I will be riding both rigid and suss forks depending on the conditions)
- will adding crud catcher bosses on the down-tube weaken it significantly, and if so, how do I offset that?
- tube diameters and thicknesses- any suggestions? I'm considering their standard sizes, but again with a larger diameter downtube for acceleration and steering precision.


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## ejls2 (Dec 14, 2006)

Hi all,

I'm thinking about buying a single speed frame from them as well and would be interested in hearing anyones views on the above. I already have a road frame from them an love it to bits but would welcome views on very similar points to Leon:

- crud catcher bosses;

- tube diameters (I'm planning on going double butted);

- gusseting on the downtube (again, I'm mainly an xc rider); 

- geometry (I think I'd like it to be the same as my scale but not suer if anything needs to be single speed specific); and

- disc mount bracing.

Any info gratefully received 

Ed


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## Puguglybonehead (Jan 24, 2010)

I ordered an MTB hardtail frame from XACD last year and am very satisfied with my purchase. I had them build me their standard hardtail, but got them to use smaller diameter chainstays and downtube, as I wanted to mimic the liveliness of my old 1st-gen Merlin that I used to have. (but without the U-brake bosses or that goofy cartridge BB the old Merlin had)
I went with their stock MTB geometry, but with tubing diameters changed to my request. (1.25" diameter downtube, instead of 1.5" diameter and also 0.75" diameter chainstays instead of 0.825" diameter) 
The bike rides beautifully! It has disc mounts. No extra bracing on the disc side. (doesn't seem to need it) Modern, 100mm-suspension-correct geometry. I'm using a Kona Project 2 fork with it. (same length as a 100mm-travel suspension fork) 
I've only done local trail riding with it, so far. Haven't had the time or money to take it out to some serious trails yet. 
Very happy with it. The XACD rep was easy to deal with. He sent me drawings for approval before the build. Only charged a small extra fee for the custom tubing specs I requested. The frame was done and shipped when promised. 
I'm so happy with this frame, I'd like to order something totally custom from them. (hmmm, wish I could get them to make me a titanium Slingshot frame, seeing as Slingshot refuses to produce those anymore)
Anyways, I recommend XACD highly!


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## Sepp (Oct 13, 2007)

good to hear - can you post some pictures? The confirmation drawing would be nice to see as well.

I am planing to design a complete custom bike with machined parts, full internal cable routing, engraving etc...

Will have to order all the parts first, so I can make a really tight 3D drawing around them.
It should be a timeless 29" XC/Trailbike for not too mountainous places...


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