# Reluctance to buying an ebike due to wearable parts



## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

So if I buy an ebike what happens in say 10 years the motor or the battery pack dies. Am I stuck? 

Do we think major manufacturers will supply parts for these in the long run?

I know there will be sE responses that say just get another one but at the prices they ask, that’s just not reasonable. 

im tempted but Ialso Want to future proof my self tosome degree


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

As it stands there are two distinct e assist system types on the market today. Those that have proprietary components and those that have open source components. Mainly in regards to the motors and batteries.

If you are concerned with being able to source components in 10 years the open source ones of today should allow you to do so even though they may not be NOS. Proprietary components it depends on the manufacturers commitment to their NOS parts supply and if they allowed for their new ones to be retro fitted to older systems. But the way things are looking that is not going to be the case. The industry is falling all over itself to create the next best thing and other than what they consider to be necessary for warranty claims I don't think they are stuffing warehouses full of this years parts for future consideration.

While there are a few manufacturers using open source componentry it is more about DIY for the long run in other words. Which works for some at the expense of not having the latest and greatest which is what works for others.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bassmantweed said:


> So if I buy an ebike what happens in say 10 years the motor or the battery pack dies. Am I stuck?
> 
> Do we think major manufacturers will supply parts for these in the long run?


10 years out?
Highly unlikely. 

Based on my experience with other electric toys (and with the bike industry as well) I would expect an ebike with motor issues to likely be a throw-away at some point well short of a decade.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Yeah, 10 years seems iffy to me for major brand compatibility and spare parts. There _may_ of course be little cottage industries that spring up providing motor and battery replacements for some of the more popular bikes, just because there'll be a demand for them (like the Specialized Levo) but I wouldn't base a buying decision on that coming to pass.

But, for example, there are places like this that will probably be able to extend the life of most e-bikes beyond what the manufacturer is willing to provide: Homepage - eBike Motor Centre (Performance Line Bearings)


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Emtb motor unit sellers, Shimano, Bosch, etc., seem to claim a 10k mile life-expectancy for their motors.

They don't offer any official service, as far as I know. They're happy to sell you replacements though. I'm unsure what a Shimano E8000 motor's price is, but I see some listed for just under $1200.

My shimano-equipped emtb had a fault with some battery connection becoming loose, and sometimes doing a "soft" power cut intermittently, first noticing it at about 5k miles. It'd give an E020 error, which I looked up and said battery connection. I got it inspected, with no obvious cause. The official "solution" was to just turn it off and back on, and hope an update improves it, reporting back if it gets worse. It gradually worsened, with cutoffs becoming more frequent, until it started doing hard power cut-offs, with no error message. Currently, I can get the power to cut by wiggling the battery (external downtube type). Getting it to work nowadays reminds me of what I did with old NES cartridges, getting the battery in its slot just right. xD

I coped and gradually got used to pedaling a 50+ lb unpowered bike around. It was kind of a drag for the first 5 rides, but I had very little complaints after that, as if it became a norm. I guess that's why emtbs still get spec'd with easy climbing gears... I felt the battery technically was a fuel source, similar to sports drink and food, and the motor was like having a tandem rider with me to help pedal. xD

I've been watching what those guys at Performance Line Bearings, who repair high-end motor units, have been doing. They've found that people who hosed their bikes had seriously compromised their motors. I think I've hosed my emtb 3 times total, but once is all it takes I guess. I became self-aware of how silly it is to give a bike the same type of "hygiene" as a human (similar to showering), considering it's a bike made of metal, which generally doesn't like water. I slacked on the re-lube afterward too. Seals that are meant to be as drag-free as possible aren't that secure either... I think washing cars, made me a bit complacent, but for that all I am doing is cleaning body panels, not all the moving components, and purposely aiming a pressurized stream of water at the timing chain, brakes, suspension, or whatever.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

I just have a problem with planned obsolescence.

i suppose one could say that about any bike as things change. But for me I am 50, I recently splurged on a top end mountain bike. I can honestly say this is the last bike I INTEND on buying. Any advancement in geometry or materials won’t move the needle enough for me to buy a new one.

I would love to do the same with an electric bike. Buy one that is future proof from a battery or motor perspective. I get that technology evolves but they could evolve it so it fits retro bikes.


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## Juansan (Dec 30, 2020)

Your legs will last longer than the motor or battery.


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## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

I figure life is short, enjoy it while you can. Mountain Biking is my primary form of recreation and it is worth the investment. I have both an EMTB and a regular bike, and the EMTB allows me to ride distances I could not normally cover, and to ride when I am feeling crappy or unrecovered, without which I would have to stay home. Let's say you have to replace the bike in 10 years, so what? You got to enjoy it during that timeframe.


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## JKA (Jul 26, 2006)

There is no such thing as future proof in bikes or anything except maybe a claw hammer. If you're concerned about that, (and it's a reasonable concern) don't buy one.


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## Gman7 (Jul 11, 2008)

Innovation along with materials and production process are constantly changing. I doubt any e-bike drive will last that long. With that said, look for the drive model with the highest production volume to have a better chance of finding parts in the long run.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Gman7 said:


> Innovation along with materials and production process are constantly changing. I doubt any e-bike drive will last that long. With that said, look for the drive model with the highest production volume to have a better chance of finding parts in the long run.


i.e. there's safety in numbers. Which was indeed one of the considerations for this very issue in the course of my eMTB shopping.

That said, I was coming off of a small fleet of mid-Aught-build MTBs all suffering from some degree of obsolescence and hard-to-replace parts... and that isn't even talking about the full-suspension frames. Just finding a decent straight-steerer fork with a through-axle literally took months. So I have already had to come to accept that you can't obsolesce-proof everything.


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## NS-NV (Aug 15, 2006)

Today’s E-Bikes are fun, but will be looked upon in 10 years (probably sooner) as ‘man, those really were not that good’. 

Similar to how we view full suspension bikes from the early 2000’s.

Motor/ battery/ drivetrain/ integration has a loooong way to go.

Difference is, in 2001, we didn’t know any better.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

I would not expect any ebikes made today to last 10 years if you are riding them regularly. And getting parts today is an issue, 10 years from now I’d say no shot. 

Have you ever thought about going the other route, instead of trying to make a 6-10k bike last ten years, buy a new (to you) bike every year and sell them for as minimal loss as possible. With the used market these days it’s very possible to buy bikes at a good deal (used demo bike, great pinkbike deal, blemish bike, industry connection, etc) and then sell them 6-12 months later to break even or even profit.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Well honestly we do about twice the distance so your question is wrong.
No buyer is worried about 20 years down the road.
Get 1 to 8 years and switch or stay away.
Your choice.
I like dependable and i get it with Yamaha/Giant but i will not complain in 11 years i will have sold my 2022.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

If you can keep an e-bike running 5 years I'd be impressed. I do agree with other posters that buying something without proprietary components will be your best chance for keeping an e-bike running. One question you have to ask yourself is once you are out of warranty how much will you be willing to spend on an older bike if you can buy batteries, motors and controllers given the cost?


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## IMeasure (Oct 5, 2020)

This is my prediction, in another 2 to 5 years you are going to see multiple after market motor/battery replacements. Currently there are a couple of dominant motor manufacturers. Let's take Bosch as an example. They have had a standard motor housing that has not changed since 2020. As far as I know their new 2022 motor has the same footprint. Let's assume they keep this going for 5 years before you have a major departure in design. In that 5 year period there are going to be millions of frames, many of which are out of warranty resulting in an expensive OEM replacement. That could be the perfect opportunity for companies to offer drop in aftermarket motors, lighter batteries and controllers. It will be like installing a new set of cranks on a regular bike. 

The current generation of ebikes are actually quite dialed. There is only so far you can slacken that geometry, and suspension kinematics is also also something that's probably only going to change incrementally over the next 5 or so years. 

That's enough crystal ball gazing today.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

Got to agree with IMeasure. As ebikes get more popular there will be more of an after market sector that grows. As tech matures companies will step in and manufacture compatible components for older tech. We've seen this in the drivetrain market already. Batteries almost all have the same innards and the non-OEM battery market for power tools grew as they became more popular.
Get a bike, ride it, enjoy it.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

33red said:


> Well honestly we do about twice the distance so your question is wrong.
> No buyer is worried about 20 years down the road.
> Get 1 to 8 years and switch or stay away.
> Your choice.
> I like dependable and i get it with Yamaha/Giant but i will not complain in 11 years i will have sold my 2022.


Maybe I’ll take the money and buy a Yamaha YZ450F. Ill take the other $3000 and hire a moving company to come pack up all my stuff and move it out west and I’ll convert to dirt bikes for the cost of an ebike stumpjumper.


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

Bassmantweed said:


> I just have a problem with planned obsolescence.


While planned obsolescence is real, it is not the only factor involved. When it comes to electronics, even a proprietary system is gong to use off the shelf parts in the build of the boards, motors etc. As technology evolves, the companies making those off the shelf parts will move on to new technology. This means that the boards and motors cannot be produced even if the company wanted to make them. The only way would be to completely re-engineer it, and no company is going to sink money into re-engineering 10 year old technology that they are not actively selling.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

That's one big disadvantage an e-bike is going to have versus ICE or pedal powered machines - holding any long term value. 
While you can pretty easily get an motorcycle or bicycle of any age running and restored pretty well, I don't think it's going to be the same for electric bikes, at least the ones with proprietary and heavily integrated motors and battery packs.


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## Stanceslao (Nov 5, 2021)

Bigwheel said:


> As it stands there are two distinct e assist system types on the market today. Those that have proprietary components and those that have open source components. Mainly in regards to the motors and batteries.
> 
> If you are concerned with being able to source components in 10 years the open source ones of today should allow you to do so even though they may not be NOS. Proprietary components it depends on the manufacturers commitment to their NOS parts supply and if they allowed for their new ones to be retro fitted to older systems. But the way things are looking that is not going to be the case. The industry is falling all over itself to create the next best thing and other than what they consider to be necessary for warranty claims I don't think they are stuffing warehouses full of this years parts for future consideration.
> 
> While there are a few manufacturers using open source componentry it is more about DIY for the long run in other words. Which works for some at the expense of not having the latest and greatest which is what works for others.


Betamax vs VHS kind of thing... as things evolve and get better, open source will also get replaced by a new open source system, but I agree, current open source system is the way to go. It applies to mostly everything.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Bassmantweed said:


> So if I buy an ebike what happens in say 10 years the motor or the battery pack dies. Am I stuck?
> 
> Do we think major manufacturers will supply parts for these in the long run?
> 
> ...



The same can be said about your car, your truck, your refrigerator, your stove. Your vinyl windows. Definitely your big screen tv, your laptop or desk top computer, Your I-phone derivative. Your pager (lol). Your printer. Your furnace and it's electronic components. Your well pump, if you have a newer one, has a built-in shelf life of 10 years due to the way they are now constructed. 

Everything constructed in the past 20-25 years has been designed with the idea of lasting so many number of cycles. And don't believe for a minute that GM has a giant warehouse for say, your Saturn L300 body control module. When you find out they don't, you are left with a car that will not run. Enter local junkyards. Or Ebay. Or somebody conversant on failed BCM's in particular and know the weak points in them.

So it is with an ebike. Or any bike for that matter. Do you believe Specialized will stock a decal set for their 2015 Fatboy? They don't. Think Trek stocks or can source a new set of rear shock bushings for your first gen Trek dual suspension mtb? They don't and they don't have a clue. 

I'd personally not worry too much about what is to come 10 years down the line as a reason for not enjoying the here and the now. Now, get that ebike and get riding!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> The same can be said about your car, your truck,


Meh. I have 17 and 22 year old vehicles I can get anything I need for without a problem.
As far as regular bike go, yeah, maybe you can't get a NOS sticker kit from the manufacturer (not like any bike has ever required stickers to work) or weird proprietary parts, but for most mountain bikes, and particularly hardtails, not much reason you can't keep it running basically forever.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

vikb said:


> If you can keep an e-bike running 5 years I'd be impressed. I do agree with other posters that buying something without proprietary components will be your best chance for keeping an e-bike running. One question you have to ask yourself is once you are out of warranty how much will you be willing to spend on an older bike if you can buy batteries, motors and controllers given the cost?


That's a good question about how much it is worth dumping money into the old bike. That value return will likely drive him to new bike more than not being able to maintain it.

How handy is the OP? I doubt his ten year old ebike will be something he can just drop off at the bike shop for motor repairs so the prices will be worse.

To the OP. There are battery shops in most areas that can replace 18650 cells if the pack is made up of those. So, if new batterie packs can't be purchased, the old pack can likely be rebuilt. The motor and electronics may turn into browsing eBay junkyards for old parts. Perhaps browsing classic ebike forums and finding the parts are used in electric wheel chairs and can be purchased new from those vendors.

People keep the original Segways going still today. It is full of specialized parts and single points of failure where the computer will just declare a fault and not let the machine move. The battery pack is the most difficult part (unique chemistry and cell size) but they rebuild them and keep them going. So a ten year old ebike should be doable for someone motivated.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> That's one big disadvantage an e-bike is going to have versus ICE or pedal powered machines - holding any long term value.
> While you can pretty easily get an motorcycle or bicycle of any age running and restored pretty well, I don't think it's going to be the same for electric bikes, at least the ones with proprietary and heavily integrated motors and battery packs.


People said that about the Prius’s a decade ago, and they still hold value running or not. When the battery dies it’s very common practice to put another in and keep on driving.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

RBoardman said:


> People said that about the Prius’s a decade ago, and they still hold value running or not. When the battery dies it’s very common practice to put another in and keep on driving.


You don't even have to put in a new one. You can get them rebuilt.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Bassmantweed said:


> So if I buy an ebike what happens in say 10 years the motor or the battery pack dies. Am I stuck?
> 
> Do we think major manufacturers will supply parts for these in the long run?
> 
> ...


I'll be tarred and feathered for this reply but you should consider a rear hub drive. Cheaper, motor can last up to 20,000 miles, you can bring more than one hailong2 battery, they don't get outdated because they already are outdated, and they often come with a throttle. So if the pedal assist dies you throttle back. If the whole electric part of the bike dies you can still pedal back...slowly. Make sure it's a geared hub drive and has a cassette based freehub (probably bafang). Because freewheels are a bit too outdated.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> The same can be said about your car, your truck, your refrigerator, your stove. Your vinyl windows. Definitely your big screen tv, your laptop or desk top computer, Your I-phone derivative. Your pager (lol). Your printer. Your furnace and it's electronic components. Your well pump, if you have a newer one, has a built-in shelf life of 10 years due to the way they are now constructed.
> 
> Everything constructed in the past 20-25 years has been designed with the idea of lasting so many number of cycles.


I definitely see your point. I guess most things that are disposable though are priced accordingly. When my 72 “ tv dies after 10 years I welcome it and will spend the $500 to get another. My days of spending huge $$$ on electronics are gone because of the built in obsolescence. In fact I’ll show you my stereo below. 🤔😂.

when my $12000 e bike fails - not so much.

why not future proof them? I understand why they don’t as it would take away from the design aesthetics but they could build Them in a way that the motor isnt so built into the frame and could be easily swapable as new tech comes out. They have big brained engineers. They could figure it out.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

richj8990 said:


> I'll be tarred and feathered for this reply but you should consider a rear hub drive. Cheaper, motor can last up to 20,000 miles, you can bring more than one hailong2 battery, they don't get outdated because they already are outdated, and they often come with a throttle. So if the pedal assist dies you throttle back. If the whole electric part of the bike dies you can still pedal back...slowly. Make sure it's a geared hub drive and has a cassette based freehub (probably bafang). Because freewheels are a bit too outdated.


Do you have example of any that are of decent quality?


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Bassmantweed said:


> Do you have example of any that are of decent quality?


Hub motor rabbit hole here: www.ebikes.ca/

If you are looking for a performance type eMTB a rear hub motor would be my last choice but more than fine for recreational/commuter use on road surfaces. The fact that hub motors are the #1 e assist solution in the world, due to their popularity in Asia primarily, makes them future proof.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

richj8990 said:


> I'll be tarred and feathered for this reply but you should consider a rear hub drive. Cheaper, motor can last up to 20,000 miles, you can bring more than one hailong2 battery, they don't get outdated because they already are outdated, and they often come with a throttle. So if the pedal assist dies you throttle back. If the whole electric part of the bike dies you can still pedal back...slowly. Make sure it's a geared hub drive and has a cassette based freehub (probably bafang). Because freewheels are a bit too outdated.


Excellent. This way you can suffer every ride out from day 1, instead of having a blast for 10 years. Maybe you can even suffer forever. Good times!


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Excellent. This way you can suffer every ride out from day 1, instead of having a blast for 10 years. Maybe you can even suffer forever. Good times!


i think you missed his comment.

“If you are looking for a performance type eMTB a rear hub motor would be my last choice but more than fine for recreational/commuter use on road surfaces”


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Bassmantweed said:


> i think you missed his comment.
> 
> “If you are looking for a performance type eMTB a rear hub motor would be my last choice but more than fine for recreational/commuter use on road surfaces”


Fair enough. Frankly my view is that you should steer clear of e-bikes altogether. At least at this time. I think your overriding objective of longevity (10 years minimum) is almost certainly unrealistic. If not, it will lead to results which are so severely compromised in most other respects (including daily joy) that it basically becomes an absurd proposition.

Reminds me of the thread with the guy wanting a frame with the best performing linkage, BUT with a zero risk of ever having to replace the bearings.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Fair enough. Frankly my view is that you should steer clear of e-bikes altogether. At least at this time. I think your overriding objective of longevity (10 years minimum) is almost certainly unrealistic. If not, it will lead to results which are so severely compromised in most other respects (including daily joy) that it basically becomes an absurd proposition.
> 
> Reminds me of the thread with the guy wanting a frame with the best performing linkage, BUT with a zero risk of ever having to replace the bearings.


Perhaps. OR we could talk about ways to improve the situation on a chat forum. 
One idea would be to include with every bike a kit that converts ebike to a regular bike. For the stumjumper it would be as simple as a SWAT box type cover to go over the battery and where the engine mounts. Prob cost $5 in plastic parts and a little re-engineering to be able to easily remove the motor. Best of both worlds. One bike two solutions. Ebike when I need it, regular bike when I don’t. AND when everything breaks I’m not left with a useless hunk of a bike. 

You guys act like 10 years is a long time 🤔 I AM getting old.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Bassmantweed said:


> Perhaps. OR we could talk about ways to improve the situation on a chat forum.
> One idea would be to include with every bike a kit that converts ebike to a regular bike. For the stumjumper it would be as simple as a SWAT box type cover to go over the battery and where the engine mounts. Prob cost $5 in plastic parts and a little re-engineering to be able to easily remove the motor. Best of both worlds. One bike two solutions. Ebike when I need it, regular bike when I don’t. AND when everything breaks I’m not left with a useless hunk of a bike.
> 
> You guys act like 10 years is a long time 🤔 I AM getting old.


Sure. That’s a little different from what I thought you were asking though.

Your original question was “So if I buy an ebike what happens in say 10 years the motor or the battery pack dies. Am I stuck?”

My answer is, yes, at this time you almost certainly will be, unless you take the longevity objective to such extremes that it overrides most other objectives.

We can talk about design mods if you wish. I didn’t appreciate that’s what you were asking.

Not trying to be spicy here. I love your amp above and am in a super great mood. About to hit 4 hours of some incredible mountain trails in an hour with my daughter, on, yes, two e-fatties. The joy I get from that, and from the past 4+ weeks of almost daily riding (usually multiple rides in one day) in the same circumstances, is worth the depreciation to me. I will likely sell these bikes at the end of this season and replace them with the new improved Bigfoots that are on their way. That’s my answer to the obsolescence issue but I certainly appreciate we are all different.

My coffee grinder is 25+ years old. Still functions as though it’s brand new. I would have to spend $750+ to come anywhere near its quality. And it won’t last more than 5 years. I love it but my e-bikes are not in this category. Or in the category of your treasured amp above. I just accept it as it is, and enjoy them for what they are.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Bassmantweed said:


> why not future proof them? I understand why they don’t as it would take away from the design aesthetics but they could build Them in a way that the motor isnt so built into the frame and could be easily swapable as new tech comes out. They have big brained engineers. They could figure it out.


Of course "they" could, probably at an increased design/production cost, and along with making some engineering sacrifices. What would be their incentive to do that?


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

nilswalk said:


> Of course "they" could, probably at an increased design/production cost, and along with making some engineering sacrifices. What would be their incentive to do that?


not have a bunch of customers with wall art in 10 years?


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Bassmantweed said:


> not have a bunch of customers with wall art in 10 years?


And why would any company motivated by profits, in a market where the demand is outstripping their ability to supply it, care one bit about that?


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Bassmantweed said:


> So if I buy an ebike what happens in say 10 years the motor or the battery pack dies. Am I stuck?
> 
> Do we think major manufacturers will supply parts for these in the long run?
> 
> ...


You can’t futureproof an MTB without a motor. Why do you think you can futureproof one with?


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Bassmantweed said:


> not have a bunch of customers with wall art in 10 years?


Companies care about profit. That’s their reason for existing.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

stripes said:


> Companies care about profit. That’s their reason for existing.


Thanks I was wondering about that.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

stripes said:


> You can’t futureproof an MTB without a motor. Why do you think you can futureproof one with?


I have a 2004 stump jumper in my basement. Last time I checked I could jump on it any time and ride it. If I wanted to change the fork I could. Is it modern geometry. No. But I can keep that thing running for as long as I want.

would I ride it ………….. no. But the point is I could without having to lug around a worthless battery or motor.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Bassmantweed said:


> I have a 2004 stump jumper in my basement. Last time I checked I could jump on it any time and ride it. If I wanted to change the fork I could. Is it modern geometry. No. But I can keep that thing running for as long as I want.
> would I ride it ………….. no. But the point is I could without having to lug around a worthless battery or motor.


Sounds to me like a distinction without a difference.

Not sure if you are looking for others to join your crusade or what your motive is. Pretty sure there is little left to be said on this issue.

I wouldn’t have bought not one, but two e-fatties had my priorities been the same as yours. They aren’t. I have derived incredible joy from owning them.

Life is awfully short. With few exceptions, bikes - any bikes - are a pretty crap investment. I know that going in.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

richj8990 said:


> I'll be tarred and feathered for this reply but you should consider a rear hub drive. Cheaper, motor can last up to 20,000 miles, you can bring more than one hailong2 battery, they don't get outdated because they already are outdated, and they often come with a throttle. So if the pedal assist dies you throttle back. If the whole electric part of the bike dies you can still pedal back...slowly. Make sure it's a geared hub drive and has a cassette based freehub (probably bafang). Because freewheels are a bit too outdated.


I read that hub motors struggle to climb steep hills.

Modern torque-sensing mid-drives do a lot to retain a bicycling feel, gradually giving assist (increasing your torque input by a certain %), rather than feeling like you're activating a motor vehicle with nonsense pedaling.

When a quality mid-drive system fails, it reverts to a normal bike too. It goes as slow as your ass would go on a normal bike. Mine has all the same parts found on a regular mtb, just with an added 15 lbs from the emtb system, which is carried surprisingly well. The weight being low and centered certainly is a big factor. I did put on gravity-friendly tires and other parts on the bike, but I was riding heavy enduro bikes before the emtb gradually became more of my first choice in my bike quiver.

I've done weekly group rides with my emtb, where I used the assist to ride 15 miles to the trailhead, was able to hang with the group with the assist off, then used the assist to ride the 15 miles home. I don't judge the ride by the mileage+elevation, but by the time and intensity--I'd leave at like 5 PM and get back at about 9:30 PM, with a heart rate level that was comparable to riding a regular bike. I'm basically using the assist to zoom past the more mundane parts, and ditch a car trip (AKA shuttle to the trail head from house). I was getting a better workout. With the emtb, I was far more likely to stop for shopping on the way back. The other guys would spend a similar amount of time... the ride itself was typically 6:30 to 8PM, but they'd eat fast food afterward while I'd be getting in another hour of riding. I'd sleep deeply/soundly, not really waking up for anything, but I feel better about myself in the morning...

Right now my emtb is super unreliable, but I am still riding it to fetch groceries and do errands without assist, since I set those habits for the 3 years I've owned the emtb. It's not that I rely on the assist. It's just that having the motor-assist available allowed me to get over the anxiety related to the difficulty of doing so (AKA all the excuses, relating to fitness, time, safety, breakdown, etc.). There's a mental wall created by complacency that was borne from a car-addicted society. Some people think motor-reliance is the enemy, but in fact it's this complacency that is the core issue. I'm not arrogant enough to reject help from a motor, if it leads to real corrections to car-addiction.

I already have "unlocked" my willingness to spend $4000+ on a bike. I just am far more willing to allocate $1750 for a quality emtb motor, battery, sensor/software package over using the same funds to afford the 50+% cost increase for carbon frame ($3000 vs 2000 for AL), rims, handlebar, etc. over AL versions. When people justify buying carbon since "lighter bikes are just more fun", especially if they try to say they're moderating themselves and that it's therapeutic in some way, while trying to dismiss the criticisms, that's akin to an addiction speaking, IMO.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Pretty sure there is little left to be said on this issue.


agree with these two points. Sounds like I’m in the minority of asking for something so expensive to last for longer and/or be serviceable.

I agree that life is short and when I get to the point where I need an eBike I will certainly buy one. Hopefully I will hear able to get more than 5,6,7….. years out of it when I do.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I agree with post # 43 with a twist.
I can enjoy my Ebike 350 days a year for 2,000$
or i can enjoy a nice vacation for 15 days for 2,000$.
I bought a 2020, a 2021 and my 2022 is ordered.
Most days i do a morning ride than an afternoon ride.
Being retired i moved close to the trails, so that Ebike replaces a car
that is way much more $$$. To me it is a great investment.
I am not picking anything fancy just 5,000$ but it feels like paradise
out in the woods.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bassmantweed said:


> agree with these two points. Sounds like I’m in the minority of asking for something so expensive to last for longer and/or be serviceable.
> 
> I agree that life is short and when I get to the point where I need an eBike I will certainly buy one. Hopefully I will hear able to get more than 5,6,7….. years out of it when I do.


I think the best bet for longevity, upgradability, and possibly even resale down the road might be a motor kit installed on a regular bike.


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

33red said:


> I agree with post # 43 with a twist.
> I can enjoy my Ebike 350 days a year for 2,000$
> or i can enjoy a nice vacation for 15 days for 2,000$.
> I bought a 2020, a 2021 and my 2022 is ordered.
> ...


to be clear I would t give it a second thought at $2000 or even $5000, but the ones I was looking at are in the $10,00”-$12,000. That’s getting a little pricey for throw away.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

My honest opinion is that with the proliferation of EVs in general there will be an entire cottage industry, sort of like TV repair back in the day, of outfits that can repair this stuff at a fair cost.

The real smart move is to buy what you want, then get rid of it at around 4 years old so you don't have to screw with it.

It's a hobby after all.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Bassmantweed said:


> I have a 2004 stump jumper in my basement. Last time I checked I could jump on it any time and ride it. If I wanted to change the fork I could. Is it modern geometry. No. But I can keep that thing running for as long as I want.
> 
> would I ride it ………….. no. But the point is I could without having to lug around a worthless battery or motor.


Ok, Well played, and point taken  I keep having to tell people that my 27.5 wheels aren't less round because the market decides not to sell them.

Unfortunately, most electronic parts are disposable today (cell phones, computers, etc), which is why I wouldn't expect much futureproofing for e-bikes.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Varaxis said:


> There's a mental wall created by complacency that was borne from a car-addicted society. Some people think motor-reliance is the enemy, but in fact it's this complacency that is the core issue. I'm not arrogant enough to reject help from a motor, if it leads to real corrections to car-addiction. I already have "unlocked" my willingness to spend $4000+ on a bike. I just am far more willing to allocate $1750 for a quality emtb motor, battery, sensor/software package over using the same funds to afford the 150+% cost increase for carbon frame ($3000 vs 2000 for AL), rims, bar, etc. over AL versions. When people justify buying carbon since "lighter bikes are just more fun", especially if they try to say they're moderating themselves and that it's therapeutic in some way, while trying to dismiss the criticisms, that's akin to an addiction speaking, IMO.


Trail Ninja - Thank you for your great insights on this forum. I too am weaning myself from cars and trucks.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> My honest opinion is that with the proliferation of EVs in general there will be an entire cottage industry, sort of like TV repair back in the day, of outfits that can repair this stuff at a fair cost.


Depends on how successful the manufacturers are in fighting against people's right to repair. 
They definitely very much want to keep what you describe from happening.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

DIY has been good to me. My BBS02 is almost seven years old (averaging one ride a week of 10 - 15 off road miles; I ride MTB three times a week) and, AFAIK, Bafang (8 Fun) hasn't changed anything except the controller. There are several vendors and the parts needed for repair are readily available (check Lunacycle or California ebikes), although I've never done any maintenance to the system or needed to repair anything. Four years ago I purchased a second unit to replace the first one while it was being repaired, but it's been powering my errand bike since it hasn't been needed. As an aside, I've owned and tested many rear hub bikes off road and, except for very smooth trails, didn't enjoy the experience.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Bassmantweed said:


> 2004 stump jumper
> 
> If I wanted to change the fork I could.


Spoken like someone who hasn't actually tried to source a non-bottom-barrel 26" straight-steerer fork.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Bassmantweed said:


> to be clear I would t give it a second thought at $2000 or even $5000, but the ones I was looking at are in the $10,00”-$12,000. That’s getting a little pricey for throw away.


Why are you so insistent on keeping the bike so long it’s worth nothing? Buy that $10k used for $8k. Ride it for a year or two. Sell if for $7500. That’s a $500 loss for hopefully lots of enjoyment.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

RBoardman said:


> Why are you so insistent on keeping the bike so long it’s worth nothing? Buy that $10k used for $8k. Ride it for a year or two. Sell if for $7500. That’s a $500 loss for hopefully lots of enjoyment.


Precisely my game plan.


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## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

How practical would it be to source a spare motor now as a future replacement part? Would they hold up on a shelf for 5-10 years, or would the rubber and plastic bits go bad in storage?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AEyogi said:


> How practical would it be to source a spare motor now as a future replacement part? Would they hold up on a shelf for 5-10 years, or would the rubber and plastic bits go bad in storage?


They would be fine.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

This thread has prompted me to move on some new Bigfoot VLTs! I now have a large and small locked down. I expect to hear soon on pricing and improvements/refinements shortly. @kntr and anyone else - I will share the info as soon as I get it.

SUPER STOKED.

Off now to Fernie for 5 more days of epic riding…


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## kntr (Jan 25, 2004)

mtnbkrmike said:


> This thread has prompted me to move on some new Bigfoot VLTs! I now have a large and small locked down. I expect to hear soon on pricing and improvements/refinements shortly. @kntr and anyone else - I will share the info as soon as I get it.
> 
> SUPER STOKED.
> 
> Off now to Fernie for 5 more days of epic riding…



Cant get em in the USA. I wish they made them in full suspension.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

kntr said:


> Cant get em in the USA. I wish they made them in full suspension.


Wow. That’s crazy. I wonder why no US availability.

As for full suspension, I have zero desire for that with this bike’s design and intended purpose. I ride it too in the shoulder seasons and it is a very fun bike as a hardtail.

I understand the new gen will be 27.5 x 4, will have a removeable, very powerful battery, and will be 15% more expensive than the current model. That’s about $7820 CDN. For a hard tail. That will likely have a crap load of SX and NX junk hanging off the frame. Ouch!

They also won’t be available until December 2022. Also ouch.

Our current bikes are in their second season. They are totally dialled now with all the junk components having been replaced. They are also dead quiet (it took a while to get all the squeaks, ticks and clicks addressed, but we did it).

I’m in a great position. Either we keep riding our current bikes for another 1 or 2 seasons, or spring for the new model and sell the current bikes for not much less than what we paid for them (I got them at a good discount in October 2020, before their price increased - so I got a double savings).

Both options are incredible. i am happy with either. I just need to decide which way to go. I am leaning towards keeping my current ones. The geo is 100% dialled. The components (now) are 100% dialled. The only thing I would prefer with the new one is the removable battery so I can charge indoors.


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## Mitchbcool (Jan 3, 2018)

Bigwheel said:


> Hub motor rabbit hole here: www.ebikes.ca/
> 
> If you are looking for a performance type eMTB a rear hub motor would be my last choice but more than fine for recreational/commuter use on road surfaces. The fact that hub motors are the #1 e assist solution in the world, due to their popularity in Asia primarily, makes them future proof.


I agree that hub drives aren't a good choice for a performance mountain bike. BUT a hub drive bike paired with a TORQUE sensor does make a decent mountain bike and making it climb better can be as easy as changing to a smaller chainring.

The torque sensor versus a cadence sensor makes a BIG difference on a hub motor! I have a mid drive Yamaha ydx moro and an iGo Outland fat bike with a Bafang hub drive and torque sensor. I ride them both on the same trails in rocky, hilly San Diego.

The assist "feel" is similar and I can climb the same hills with either; although the Yamaha is definately the better climber. My closest routine ride is a 12 miler with 1800 ft of climbing and a couple 20+ incline sections.

So if the OP or anyone else wants to get into the hobby with a cheaper hub drive try one paired with a torque sensor, you'll be surprised .



Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Mitchbcool said:


> I have a mid drive Yamaha ydx moro
> Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk


Please post a picture of your moro - did you buy it at a motorcycle shop or a bike shop? What kind of range? Easy or hard to remove battery pack etc? Thanks in advance


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## kntr (Jan 25, 2004)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Wow. That’s crazy. I wonder why no US availability.
> 
> As for full suspension, I have zero desire for that with this bike’s design and intended purpose. I ride it too in the shoulder seasons and it is a very fun bike as a hardtail.
> 
> ...


Ive owned full suspension fat bikes, no suspension fat bikes, and front suspension fat bikes and full suspension fat bikes are way more fun in the winter. They have way more traction as the tires stay on the ground more. We dont have groomed winter trails. Our winter trails are post holes and ruts and no fun on a hardtail.

We can get the Bigfoot VLT in the USA but we are about 6 months behind Canada on all VLT bikes. 

I sure wish Norco didn't use the EP8. The motor has way less power than all the other motors. 





Try riding this on a hardtail and Ill ride it on my full suspension.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

kntr said:


> Ive owned full suspension fat bikes, no suspension fat bikes, and front suspension fat bikes and full suspension fat bikes are way more fun in the winter. They have way more traction as the tires stay on the ground more. We dont have groomed winter trails. Our winter trails are post holes and ruts and no fun on a hardtail.
> 
> We can get the Bigfoot VLT in the USA but we are about 6 months behind Canada on all VLT bikes.
> 
> ...


I wouldn’t even bother riding that. I’m blessed to have ridden almost 35 days straight now, in 2 different provinces, in 8 different areas, and not once did I ride stuff like that. Mine is more blues and blacks on groomed trails. It’s not always this manicured but this is an example:








That said, I rode stuff like this on my e-fattie this fall and it was a BLAST.








As for power, we are rarely out of ECO mode. I rode for 4+ hours in minus 18C temps a week or so ago and had 3 of 5 bars left on the battery power gauge.

I can barely control this bike in Turbo or Boost or whatever it’s called. I’m liable to slam into a tree from the torque. Trail mode is fine but not necessary. Power is not something we are wanting for.

*Back to the thread*, I think I am going to keep these e-fatties for another season or two. I am going to discuss the new ones next week with my LBS. I got confirmation that they have in fact been reserved for me without any commitment. So I’m in a good spot. In terms of obsolescence, I am not concerned about keeping these bikes another year or two. Maybe more.

But the detachable battery on the new ones is speaking to me…


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## kntr (Jan 25, 2004)

We need power and big batteries with no groomers. I run my Levo in Turbo a lot in the winter. I wish more bike companies would sell full suspension fat ebikes with multiple wheel sets.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

kntr said:


> View attachment 1973146


And here I obsess with drivetrain lubrication...


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

RBoardman said:


> Why are you so insistent on keeping the bike so long it’s worth nothing? Buy that $10k used for $8k. Ride it for a year or two. Sell if for $7500. That’s a $500 loss for hopefully lots of enjoyment.


Inevitably buying used means you're up for drivetrain and shock and fork service too. So it's not always roses. Sure there will be the odd garage queen that you'll find. I like buying older bikes to get certain parts for different builds but I'm certain that the forks and shock will need to be opened up. Brake pads worn, hell I go through a set of pads pretty quickly if I do any shuttling.


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## Mitchbcool (Jan 3, 2018)

Jack7782 said:


> Please post a picture of your moro - did you buy it at a motorcycle shop or a bike shop? What kind of range? Easy or hard to remove battery pack etc? Thanks in advance












I bought it used. The seller bought it at a Yamaha dealer. I found Yamaha dealers here in San Diego wouldnt even look at it when I wanted to get the warranty transfered, even the one it was bought from originally. I had to go through Yamaha corporate to get it done.

The range is okay, not great depending on the climbing being done and the assist level used. Ive never took out the battery so I dont know. I dont want to hijack the thread; PM me and Ill give you more info.

Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk


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## kntr (Jan 25, 2004)

mtnbkrmike said:


> And here I obsess with drivetrain lubrication...












I ride the Mutz mostly in the winter though.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtnbkrmike said:


> And here I obsess with drivetrain lubrication...


 That IS drivetrain lubrication.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> That IS drivetrain lubrication.


Au naturel.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

So isn't the weak point the electronics that control the pedal assist? Seems like an electric motor and battery are pretty basic. Maybe someone will start up buying dead ebikes and converting them to just use a simple twist throttle without all the "brains", though obviously they'd no longer be trail legal but maybe they could have a second life as a commuter.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> they'd no longer be trail legal


Not like anyone is checking.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Not like anyone is checking.


Hey! I'm trying to behave here!


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

chazpat said:


> So isn't the weak point the electronics that control the pedal assist? Seems like an electric motor and battery are pretty basic. Maybe someone will start up buying dead ebikes and converting them to just use a simple twist throttle without all the "brains", though obviously they'd no longer be trail legal but maybe they could have a second life as a commuter.


Solid-state electronics are pretty reliable, as well as easily replaceable. While electric motors are common I think the problem will be that as they get better and smaller and designs change you won't be able to find one that has the exact form-factor and mounting points required by whatever 10-yr old frame you're trying to keep going. Probably the same with batteries. There'll be tons of batteries, and better ones than we have now. Will you be able to find one that fits exactly into your frame? Who knows.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

nilswalk said:


> Solid-state electronics are pretty reliable, as well as easily replaceable. While electric motors are common I think the problem will be that as they get better and smaller and designs change you won't be able to find one that has the exact form-factor and mounting points required by whatever 10-yr old frame you're trying to keep going. Probably the same with batteries. There'll be tons of batteries, and better ones than we have now. Will you be able to find one that fits exactly into your frame? Who knows.


Nailed it.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Wearable parts as in mid drives and the gears and complexity of a geared motor, yeah thats understandable, but there are options for no wearable parts other then simple cover plate bearings. I just cant wait until we get better batteries with higher capacities and higher discharge rates but most importantly a higher charge rate so you can juice up and get 2kwh of juice in no time flat, I'd be happy with an hour. For something like that to happen 2kwh, the tech advancement will be in the charger running off 120v(ac), because you can always get a bigger battery to be able to dump more stuff in but a more compact battery is always nice. Plus you can keep your battery longer because you arent draining the battery and fully charging it up everytime, for me thats everyday. With a bigger battery on your normal route if you can get 2 round trips instead of one your battery will last longer. But there are other factors like not keeping your battery at full voltage for long, I used to do it over night, but I stopped that, now I charge to storage voltage and it takes 30-45 minutes to charge with the Satiator charger at 8a at its maxxed out voltage rating for the Satiator.


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