# Anyone setup 20" tubeless for their kid?



## endo33 (Jul 9, 2009)

I live in AZ so tubeless makes a lot of sense.

I am thinking of doing a ghetto tubeless setup on a hotrock 20" stock wheel. 

Has anyone had success with this? (Tube or tape variety.)

I am curious what type and size tube you used? 

Also, a removable valve would be ideal so that I can easily add Stan's. If that even can be done on a 20" bike as I am assuming a 16" tube is the way to go.


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

After it took me 20 minutes to get the coaster-brake-equipped bolt-on rear wheel off my kids bike, I considered it... as in "I never want to do this again to fix a flat". 

But I'd need an even smaller tube to make ghetto rim strips for the 16" wheels, and I'm thinking removable valve cores aren't going to happen in those sizes. The bead on the tire was so tight that adding sealant without a removable valve would be extra-painful.

Let me know if you try it.


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## IAmHolland (Jul 8, 2010)

All schraeder valves have removable cores. Small bikes are all schraeder valved, AFAIK. I haven't seen any 16" "mountain" bike with presta. Perhaps BMX bikes may have presta, but I haven't paid much attention to that.

If doing tape, cut up a schraeder tube. The stock Hotrock wheels are schraeder. IF you built a wheel with Presta, Q-Tubes has tubes that are removable core, and you can cut that up or buy a valve from Stan's or some other place. These aftermarket valves won't work with a Schraeder rim, AFAIK.


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## brent878 (Apr 17, 2007)

why does tubeless on a 20" make a lot of sense in AZ? Do you guys get a lot of pinch flats or something? Run really low air pressure in kids bikes? I guess I don't see any benfit to going tubeless on a kids bike. Why not just put slim or stans in the tube and call it a day if you are worried about puncture flats? Is it weight savings you are after?


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

brent878 said:


> why does tubeless on a 20" make a lot of sense in AZ? Do you guys get a lot of pinch flats or something? Run really low air pressure in kids bikes? I guess I don't see any benfit to going tubeless on a kids bike. Why not just put slim or stans in the tube and call it a day if you are worried about puncture flats? Is it weight savings you are after?


THORNS!!!!!...you know Cactus grows down there

I would think using 16" tubes with a ghetto setup would work pretty good on a 20" wheel. I don't really have thorns up where I live and I'm not worried about my 50lbs kid pinch flatting but as a former resident of the SW I could see the benefit down there.


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## IAmHolland (Jul 8, 2010)

brent878, I have goatheads in my area and the kids ride in that stuff for "fun"...when you have to haul out 2 bikes with both tires flat it's annoying. I, personally, have put slime in a lightweight tube (Intense tube). It works well and is easy to setup and maintain.

My son has moved on to a 24" bike, which I have set up with gorilla ghetto. The factor for me, there, is primarily weight. I may be able to shave a few grams off my daughter's 20" by going ghetto. I'm considering it, but the maintenance is weighing in on the decision.


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## brent878 (Apr 17, 2007)

mtnbiker72 said:


> THORNS!!!!!...you know Cactus grows down there
> 
> I would think using 16" tubes with a ghetto setup would work pretty good on a 20" wheel. I don't really have thorns up where I live and I'm not worried about my 50lbs kid pinch flatting but as a former resident of the SW I could see the benefit down there.


For thorns I think tubeless would be more of a hasstle and it doesn't work as good IMO as a tube with slim in it. Tubeless is for pinch flats and lighter weight. I got less puncture flats with slim in tubes than I do with my tubless with stans. The tubless with stans works great for the first 4 months till it dries out and leaves you on the trail with holes and no sealant. Never had a slim tube dry out on me or go flat from thorns.


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## Jwiffle (Jan 26, 2004)

A few years ago I tried to set up my son's 20" getto tubeless, but didn't have much luck. I have, however, set up his 24" bike tubeless. Was able to use Stan's strips on the 24" wheels.


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

I've considered Stans(sealant & valve) + gorilla + small block 8 on my son's20" GT Stomper for weight savings. Problem I see is that the rim is single wall so the height of the sides are the size of the braking track and the bead lock lip is almost nonexistent. (lots of room for the tire bead to shift up and down on the rim) Maybe ghetto with 12" or 16" tube is the answer to this. Also the rim is drilled schraeder so my stan's presta valve doesn't seat very tight. Maybe a valve stem from the auto parts store would fix this.


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

brent878 said:


> For thorns I think tubeless would be more of a hasstle and it doesn't work as good IMO as a tube with slim in it. Tubeless is for pinch flats and lighter weight. I got less puncture flats with slim in tubes than I do with my tubless with stans. The tubless with stans works great for the first 4 months till it dries out and leaves you on the trail with holes and no sealant. Never had a slim tube dry out on me or go flat from thorns.


Slime tubes are heavy and work some of the time. You could throw tire liners in there too a really weigh down your little ripper's bike.

Tubeless is lighter, and is much more effective IME of 20 years of riding...including in the SW. And there are other products such as Slime Pro sealant or some DIY formulas that last much longer than 4 months.


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

IAmHolland said:


> All schraeder valves have removable cores.


I'll have another look. They are schrader, of course, but they are also elbow-neck valves to get the pump head on with the small wheel. I'm a career presta guy some I've never had a standard valve apart.

Straight neck valves would probably still be usable


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## IAmHolland (Jul 8, 2010)

ghettocruiser said:


> I'll have another look. They are schrader, of course, but they are also elbow-neck valves to get the pump head on with the small wheel. I'm a career presta guy some I've never had a standard valve apart.
> 
> Straight neck valves would probably still be usable


I see. You can always buy another tube.  I never had a problem on 12" and 16" bikes with standard valves.

For the schraeder core remover you can go to an auto parts store, if you can't find one in the bike shop.

The little spring valve inside the valve stem gets unscrewed.

picture here Schrader valve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## adamant (Sep 22, 2006)

endo33 said:


> I live in AZ so tubeless makes a lot of sense.
> 
> I am thinking of doing a ghetto tubeless setup on a hotrock 20" stock wheel.
> 
> ...


YES!!!

I did a ghetto tubless conversion to my 8 y/o daughter's Specialized Hotrock (2012 MY bike). Super easy. i used a 16 inch tube, sliced down the middle, Stans sealant, and Specialized 20 inch tires.

Why tubeless for kids? Same reasons: all the benefits of running lower tire pressure.

I use Specialized tape and valves and Stans on my enduro and DH bikes. But for Schrader-drilled rims, i think ghetto tubeless is the way to go.

Another person did a great write-up of ghetto tubeless at Ghetto tubeless conversion DIY: tips and tricks


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## Jay Uno (Jul 10, 2010)

brent878 said:


> For thorns I think tubeless would be more of a hasstle and it doesn't work as good IMO as a tube with slim in it. Tubeless is for pinch flats and lighter weight. I got less puncture flats with slim in tubes than I do with my tubless with stans. The tubless with stans works great for the first 4 months till it dries out and leaves you on the trail with holes and no sealant. Never had a slim tube dry out on me or go flat from thorns.


It's the opposite in my opinion. It's all about small puncture protection from thorns. Even here in California, thorns are a hassle.
Till it dries out? Not the fault of the system but the fault of the user.

endo33:
Rim tape, valves, and sealant. Then have at it. There might be some better tires out there that are know to seat better for tubeless so check for those.


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## JRS73 (May 26, 2012)

Alienation recently released their 20 inch tubeless products.

TCS Tubeless Compatible System - Alienation BMX


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## Fastblack (Jul 8, 2013)

Resurrecting an old thread, but I'm curious what happens when you go ghetto tubless and you have to refill the sealant after a couple of months. Assuming you need to buy new tubes and start over again?


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## Vxc961 (Apr 20, 2013)

My LBS advised against 20" tubeless because they're single walled rims (I still don't understand that), but I think the four month thing means you dump a few ounces of Stan's sealant in there every few months. Not a big deal in my opinion.

Edit: My LBS advised I just run tire liners, but I'm trying to keep the bike under 75lbs without spending a fortune.

To me (and I'm a dummy), the beauty of tubeless is that you don't get flats on the trails. I'm willing to set a reminder on my phone to add sealant every three months for myself, let along my 5 and/or 6 yo will undergo intense agony with a flat on the trail, which is only amplified when I have to deal with that intense agony.

I haven't gone ghetto 20" tubeless, but I plan on it before I donate their 16" bikes to younger nephews.


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## duggus (May 11, 2007)

Fastblack said:


> Resurrecting an old thread, but I'm curious what happens when you go ghetto tubless and you have to refill the sealant after a couple of months. Assuming you need to buy new tubes and start over again?


Not if you use the gorilla tape method. Either add more sealant through the valve core or pull the tire slightly off and dump more in. Its a 5 min job.


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## adamant (Sep 22, 2006)

Vxc961, Rims don't matter. I've used single-wall Alex rims (stock on many Specialized Hotrocks) and double-wall rims (Alienation Deviant). Good results with both. I think your LBS was giving you the voodoo-BS scare.....dunno. 

Yes! keep the weight down (no tire liners or goo inside a tube) by setting the wheels up tubeless. As Jay and Duggus indicated, put in new sealant and call it good.


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## JorisFRST (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi,

have just done some 18" wheels for my daughters bike using this guide :thumbsup: Easy enough when following all the steps. Glueing the tube on the outside was a good tip.


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## JorisFRST (Sep 2, 2008)

JorisFRST said:


> Hi,
> 
> have just done some 18" wheels for my daughters bike using this guide :thumbsup: Easy enough when following all the steps. Glueing the tube on the outside was a good tip.


Just uploaded the pictures :
Routerjanitor: Kid bike, tubeless setup (ghetto style)


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I tubelessed both of my son's bikes so far... 20 and 24. Did em both with tape and Stan's valves. 
Only catch was I built the wheels on both bikes and used rims that accepted the presta valves.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

JorisFRST said:


> Glueing the tube on the outside was a good tip.


Does this mean that tire and tube were glued together somehow, before inflating? It's an old thread, but maybe someone can give me some useful advice, since I'm struggling to have my son's 20" tire seated against the rim (front tire inflated pretty easily, but rear tire won't seat at all!)


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

solitone said:


> Does this mean that tire and tube were glued together somehow, before inflating? It's an old thread, but maybe someone can give me some useful advice, since I'm struggling to have my son's 20" tire seated against the rim (front tire inflated pretty easily, but rear tire won't seat at all!)


What's your set up, i.e, what tires/rims/valves are you using? Are you using a compressor? Is the tire wire bead or foldable?

Edit: I just saw your posts in the Scott thread, so that answers some of the questions that I had above. The fact that your tires are wire bead and that your rear tires bead has a kink in it, could be contributing to the trouble you are having. I have set up kevlar tires on single wall rims with no trouble and I have set up wire bead tires on tubeless ready rims with not too much trouble, but I'm wondering about setting up wire bead tires on single wall rims...That to me seems like more trouble than is worth it.

On my sons 20, I had quite a bit of trust on the kevlar bead Small Block Eights once I got them to seat. They wouldn't lock in, but the tire was really quite supple, and there were no issues with burping. As long as the pressure stayed high enough to keep the tire on the rim, there was no problem whatsoever. I used Gorilla tape to seal the rim. I also used old presta valve stems removed from old tubes that had removable cores, and had some presta nuts that had steps on them to help center the valve in the schreader drilled rim. Worked perfect.

On my sons 24, the wheels are tubeless ready, but the tires that came with it, (small block eights as well) were wire bead. It was a little more of a dance to get them to seat...and I really didn't feel very confident in the set up. I got it to work, but actually opted to put the tubes back in. I just didn't trust the tires. I've since thrown on Rocket Ron's. Total compatibility.

One thing you can try doing to get the tire to seat is wrap a cord round the tire, down its center line of the tread, so that it will press the tires beads against the rim, get a sponge with some soapy water and spread the sudsy around the rim/bead area. These two things together will help slow the escape of air just enough to put more 'push' on the sidewalls of the tire and help push the beads to the rims hooks. If you can, try to massage that bend out of the wire in the tires bead.

Honestly myself though, I'm not sure that I'd want to set up both wire bead and single wall. My reason for running tubeless for my son was to lower the rotational mass, and get more suppleness from the low pressures I was running for him, which was about 12.5 psi on his 20", and now about 12.5-13 psi on his 24". I was able to run him at those low pressures with the tubes in anyway too, so it wasn't a deal breaker to not run tubeless if it wasn't optimal with the components on hand a the moment.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

jochribs said:


> What's your set up, i.e, what tires/rims/valves are you using? Are you using a compressor. Is the tire wire bead or foldable?



Tires: Kenda Slant Six, 20x2.60, wire bead
Rims: stock rims that come with Scott Scale 20" plus, 26 mm inner width, 32 outer width

https://www.scott-sports.com/gb/en/products/249815039/SCOTT-Scale-JR-20-Plus-Bike

I used a cut 14" tube on top of the provided thick plastic yellow tape that's normally used to protect tube from nipples. The valve is Schrader. I use a compressor.

Although the front tire sealed without any issue, I can't get the back tire seated--let alone sealed. I tried and removed the valve core, but it didn't help. It seems the tire is too loose, so air can't inflate it and make it seated.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Try the trick I mentioned above with the cord wrapped around the circumference of the tire and using soapy/sudsy water wiped with a sponge around the rim/tire interface. Also, massage the bend out of the wire bead that you mentioned if it is possible. 

If those don't work, I'd put the tubes back in, as the effort/benefit of running tubeless with that setup is going to be pretty negligible in my opinion. You can really attain some low pressures with the volume of the tires that your sons bike has as it is, and tubeless is going to merely save weight...which I totally get and would be chasing after myself, but it might not be worth the trouble or even reliable for you at the moment. Put some talc on the tubes and drop the pressure to the high single digits or just above and see what that does for the handling. Probably be pretty good I would think.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

had no issues setting my son number two's bike tubeless with gorilla tape, DT swiss valves and stans fluid. inflated with an airshot and they stay seated and low low pressure. these are specialized Big Roller 20 x 2.8


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

jochribs said:


> One thing you can try doing to get the tire to seat is wrap a cord round the tire, down its center line of the tread, so that it will press the tires beads against the rim, get a sponge with some soapy water and spread the sudsy around the rim/bead area. These two things together will help slow the escape of air just enough to put more 'push' on the sidewalls of the tire and help push the beads to the rims hooks. If you can, try to massage that bend out of the wire in the tires bead.


Ok, thanks, I'll try again then. And what about the glueing thing mentioned by JorisFRST?

Do the troubles I'm getting with the rear wheel depend on a rough/misshaped tire bead? Since the front sealed at the first inflate.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

jochribs said:


> If those don't work, I'd put the tubes back in, as the effort/benefit of running tubeless with that setup is going to be pretty negligible in my opinion. You can really attain some low pressures with the volume of the tires that your sons bike has as it is, and tubeless is going to merely save weight.


In fact weight saving is negligible (1800 g vs. 1845 g for the front wheel). I wanted to go tubeless to attain lower pressures, without risking pinch flats.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

solitone said:


> Ok, thanks, I'll try again then. And what about the glueing thing mentioned by JorisFRST?
> 
> Do the troubles I'm getting with the rear wheel depend on a rough/misshaped tire bead? Since the front sealed at the first inflate.


They could. If the air is able to escape in an area or areas and not put enough pressure on the tire, it won't flip the balance to push the the sidewalls into position. Do you feel pretty good about the rate of air you're getting through the valve? A fast enough rate of air will overcome a lot of irregularities. I'm just wondering if the parts you have are going to play nice...you've added a tube rim strip which has increased the circumference/diameter of the wheel and you still have a loose fitting tire. The tire might just be a poor fitting tire. Let me ask this...when you air up these same tires on these rims with the tubes in, did the rear need to be balanced in the bead/i.e, were there high and low spots where the tire wasn't set evenly in the rim and had to be worked by hand?

As for the gluing to the rim, I'm not specifically positive. Not something I'd really want to bother with doing. The tire does to some degree get glued by the sealant if it is distributed properly anyway.

Looking at the Big Roller tires that Poah has, I wonder if getting a set of those would be worth a shot? You could rule out the issue you're having with the rear tire. My experience with Specialized tires and rims tells me that Poah is dealing with a vastly different situation than you are. I've aired up/seated my own Specialized tires (Renegades, Fastraks) with a floor pump. Without having Big Rollers in front of me to judge from, I'd still wager that they have a better bead shape that contributes to tubeless use. Poah even said they stayed locked to the rim, which is also an indication of internal rim shape, where there's flat shelves on each side that hold the tire and keep burps from happening when the tire deflects.

If it were me and I were dead set on giving setting your components a go at tubeless, I would chuck the tube rim strips. They are way too heavy. And if I understand how they work, they basically sit between the bead of the tire and the rim, correct? That, to me just doesn't make sense. The idea is to seal the rim, not obscure the bead hooks. Better would be to use gorilla tape. I've used it with absolute success. It is simple. Rip a long enough price off to make it around the rim with a little extra. Then start a rip length wise at the width of the inside of the rim. (The real inside width, not the inside bead hook to bead hook, a tad wider than that). Start putting it on with some pressure and stretch about half way around the wheel from the valve hole. Massage it down as you go. I hit it with a blow dryer and press the edges with the tip of a tire lever. You'll see the glue backing sort of squish out a bit. That's a good sign. You might need more than one pass on your rim. Make it enough that it tightens things up, but doesn't block the tire from the bead hooks. Also, use real tubeless valves. You can use the presta ones on your schrader rims, especially with the gorilla tape. The main pieces of equipment you need are the locking nuts that have the step on them that centers the valve in the larger Schrader hole. Stupidly, St and valves don't come with these, but most bike shops will have them floating around, as they come on Vittoria and Schwalbe tubes. (Those tubes also have removable cores so you can cut up spent ones to make your own tubeless valves) Probably give them to you for free. If you can't find them that way, you can buy them but they cost as much as tubes themselves, ridiculously. Do some searches for them.



solitone said:


> In fact weight saving is negligible (1800 g vs. 1845 g for the front wheel). I wanted to go tubeless to attain lower pressures, without risking pinch flats.


Is say that neglible weight decrease is due to the tube that you've added to the rim. Instead of losing the tube, you've just moved it?.

Honestly though, with the air volume you have, you really don't need to worry about pinch flats. My guess is that you can successfully run those tires as low as the high single digits without issue.

Anyway, long rambling post...sorry. Need coffee. Happy Fathers Day everyone, lol!!


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

POAH said:


> had no issues setting my son number two's bike tubeless with gorilla tape, DT swiss valves and stans fluid. inflated with an airshot and they stay seated and low low pressure. these are specialized Big Roller 20 x 2.8


What's the width of your son's rims (internal and external)? And what's the width of the Big Roller once it's inflated? Is it wire bead?


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

jochribs said:


> As for the gluing to the rim, I'm not specifically positive. Not something I'd really want to bother with doing. The tire does to some degree get glued by the sealant if it is distributed properly anyway.


I was wondering whether glueing would be a help for initial seating, as an alternative to your cord method.

As for the tieing way, how firm should be the tie? If it's too tight I would assume it would prevent inflating.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

jochribs said:


> Do you feel pretty good about the rate of air you're getting through the valve? A fast enough rate of air will overcome a lot of irregularities.


With the same compressor I've inflated plenty of tubeless-ready tires on tubless-ready rims. It's the first time I try ghetto tubeless, though. As for the valve, I've alse removed its core to maximise air inflow. I think the rate of air should be pretty high.



jochribs said:


> you've added a tube rim strip which has increased the circumference/diameter of the wheel and you still have a loose fitting tire. The tire might just be a poor fitting tire. Let me ask this...when you air up these same tires on these rims with the tubes in, did the rear need to be balanced in the bead/i.e, were there high and low spots where the tire wasn't set evenly in the rim and had to be worked by hand?


This I didn't notice. I got the bike with the tires already mounted. I'll put in the tube again and have a look.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

solitone said:


> What's the width of your son's rims (internal and external)? And what's the width of the Big Roller once it's inflated? Is it wire bead?


yes wire bead, 66mm wide at current pressure and the external width of the rim is 35mm, internal 30mm


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## JorisFRST (Sep 2, 2008)

solitone said:


> I was wondering whether glueing would be a help for initial seating, as an alternative to your cord method.


The glueing if I remember was just adding loads of sealer to the outside of the tire instead of using soap to help seal / glue the inner tire to the outer to prevent burps.

Definitely try the cord round the tire trick, I was able to put my wheelbarrow tire back on using this trick without a compressor. (and that was a LOOSE fit).


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## JorisFRST (Sep 2, 2008)

JorisFRST said:


> glueing


Yep, was just that.









from this article Ghetto tubeless conversion DIY: tips and tricks | Ridemonkey Forums


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*Sill seal foam does the trick*

Thanks you all for your advice. In the end I had luck with one layer of sill seal foam (closed cell foam), as explained here:
https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/...bikes-for-15-per-tire-and-30-minutes-of-work/









The one I used is 30 mm wide and 5 mm thick, and its weight is negligible. The 30 mm size is just right for the Scale's rims, no need to cut it. Basically I kept the standard yellow tape used to protect the tube from the protruding nipples, and above it I wrapped the foam insulation around. Finally, I wrapped the usual cut tube around the inside of the rim.

This way the tire is much tighter (I needed a couple of levers to mount the tire), and inflating with the compressor was a snap.

I know that the gorilla tape method is more lightweight, but I've read in many places that the tube method is safer, therefore I opted for the latter.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Way to go Solitone! That was pretty good thinking on your part. 

The cord trick doesn't need to be tight, just snugged and held with one hand while the other adds air. It just helps keep the tire against the rim until the air takes over.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

JorisFRST said:


> The glueing if I remember was just adding loads of sealer to the outside of the tire instead of using soap to help seal / glue the inner tire to the outer to prevent burps.
> 
> Definitely try the cord round the tire trick, I was able to put my wheelbarrow tire back on using this trick without a compressor. (and that was a LOOSE fit).


Ha!!! So awesome, I think that's were so many of us first learned that trick...wheelbarrows!


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## MudSnow (Jun 30, 2013)

No more messing with ghetto tubes and gorilla tape.

Here are 20" tubeless rims that would work on kids' bikes, trailers, and recumbents.

Alienation Mischief TCS Rim 290g
Alienation Malice TCS Rim 325g

The Mischief looks almost exactly like the old Stan's 355 profile.


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