# Noob on the block.



## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Hello all, 

Thanks for having me here, I'm also eager in learning a lot about bikes in general. I did my own research here and there and I will be asking (hopefully) appropriate questions that won't hurt your brains (in the level of my ignorance in the subject). I'm not looking for best bang for my buck but nothing too outrageous.. I do plan to hit trails (since there are NO mountains in FL)... So, I'm pretty sure a HT will suffice. Just looking for stiffness and great components/hardware... as I have shopped around the brands I happened to catch someone say "GO FULL CUSTOM or BUST!" .. I build custom gaming rigs and I mod my personal vehicle so, doing the same with bikes would be simple knowing what I'm looking at... 

I look forward to your guidance MTBR... pave or gravel my path... or help me along the way heh...


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Oh, I'm sure it's a given but I don't currently own a bike. Which is why I'm seeking insight. Last bike I had was when I was a teenager back in the 90's/00's probably was a walmart brand... So yeah.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

You can start with a frame and buy the parts to get what you want. 
And I could use some parts I've already got.
Probably the fork and wheels are the more important parts you'd benefit from choosing yourself.


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

Without knowing much about bikes and components ,I wouldn't suggest it. There are too many variables . Ask questions here ,go visit some shops, find out what bikes are being ridden where you are going to ride, ask there what they like and why. See if there are any demo days coming up , rent ,borrow as many bikes as you can.


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## Shartist (Aug 15, 2018)

Define “outrageous”... 

By many new/non-riders’ (and even some riders’) standards a mid tier full suspension bike cost is considered outrageous. 

I try not to give a straight answer when people ask me what my bikes’ cost, I’m tired of the response I typically get. Those who don’t ride typically look at me like I’m nuts and tell me it’s more than their motorcycle/used car/etc etc if I give them number even approaching the actual cost and it’s tiresome trying to explain or even not explain.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

rangeriderdave said:


> Without knowing much about bikes and components ,I wouldn't suggest it. There are too many variables . Ask questions here ,go visit some shops, find out what bikes are being ridden where you are going to ride, ask there what they like and why. See if there are any demo days coming up , rent ,borrow as many bikes as you can.


Building anything is simple... it's knowing what parts are quality. Like I mentioned before, I work on my car (way more complex) and build custom water cooled gaming rigs. I'm not scared of building a bike.. hell, I can build Ikea furniture no sweat. It's a matter of knowing the quality brands in the components.. Aluminum/Carbon etc are best IMO... carbon for it's strength and light weight but aluminum is more cost effective.

I do plan on asking loads of questions here mainly and at shops.. usually here in Miami the shops are more sales driven and if you bring too many questions they don't take the client serious. Here, I'm hoping to gather the communities experience in their builds and purchases.



Shartist said:


> Define "outrageous"...
> 
> By many new/non-riders' (and even some riders') standards a mid tier full suspension bike cost is considered outrageous.
> 
> I try not to give a straight answer when people ask me what my bikes' cost, I'm tired of the response I typically get. Those who don't ride typically look at me like I'm nuts and tell me it's more than their motorcycle/used car/etc etc if I give them number even approaching the actual cost and it's tiresome trying to explain or even not explain.


Honestly, I'm not looking to spend more than 3K really on a daily trail bike. I know from the reviews I've seen on youtube and a couple of "pro" bloggers what I should be looking for, which is why I came here for a more in-depth from you guys. I would love to go carbon but to keep cost low I'd have to cheap out on more important components. Wheels, tires, suspension, frame rigidity, and brakes are of the utmost importance in any vehicle...

I have reinforced my personal car for autocross and spirited drives (Tail of the Dragon). Coilovers/ front and rear sway bars endlinks and sticky summer tires from a quality brand. 

but NOTHING can replace experience from tinkering with your toy.


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

The OP says he currently doesn't own a bike nor has he rode in over 20 years. Based upon these two tidbits of information, I'm with RangerRiderDave and would not suggest the OP try and build their first mountain bike piece by piece. 

The OP is correct that for the majority of trails located in Florida, a hardtail will be the appropriate type of bike. I am going to suggest visiting bike shops and check out the inventories as well as the employees. Until one gains the experience (as the OP is aware since he builds custom gaming rigs) one will need to rely on someone to maintain the bike and I have found spending a little more on something where you are treated well and appreciated works out much better. 

My advice is to first determine your budget. Then understand that a "smoking deal" means nothing if the bike doesn't fit you properly. You will not be able to determine proper fitment by straddling a bike or a lap or two in the parking lot. As suggested above, try to demo as many bikes as possible.

I've known many people that got the bug to mountain bike and for one reason or another did not stick with it. With that said, once you know what a good fit is, there are many 26'er HT's that can be purchased at a fraction of what they were worth (fraction what they sold for) just a couple of years ago. Just an option. And beware, this hobby can end up consuming you (and your wallet). Cheers.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

I'm not looking for a smoking deal... or anything irrational like something amazing at a price point like $800... I have friends and co-workers around me saying anything from "a good entry level starts at $600" and a really good friend of mine saying, " You're not getting anywhere with an $800 bike". 

After I did my reading and vague research I came to the conclusion that going overboard on a bike more than 2K~3K isn't worth it with the sort of trails we have here. So going full suspension and carbon isn't ideal. 

I'm more worried about rigidity, comfort (seat/sizing/maneuverability), traction and stopping power. I'm only 5'7" so, I'm not that tall and going by guides provided by manufacturers a M frame would be best which is 17.5"... I could just opt for a Roscoe 7 and upgrade the parts but might be counter productive and not good for the wallet. 

I've built many computers and purchasing everything low to mid range to then later upgrade parts is not ideal which is why I would consider building it over a premade bike. 

Granted, I would need to get a feel again in riding period and to determine if 17.5" (M) is the correct sizing for me. it ranges from 5'3" to my height. M/L starts below my height so that can be "ideal" too but I have to try it out as suggested. I was also considering 27.5 wheels over 26er's or 29er's. Not too slow and not too heavy. 

I have gone to certain stores and they're mostly all sales driven (like a car dealership) most are not focus in concerns of their clients or clarifying questions of a noob... which is why I came to this forum. 

If we must put a number I'd say a healthy bike with decent to good components can range my budget to 2K no more than that.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

At this time of year demo days with different models and sizes of bikes can be scheduled by manufacturers through local shops or on their websites at area trails. Check for timing with all the shops in your area and get on their email lists. You'll benefits from the free on trail testing. Ride every bike in or out of your price range. You can learn what components you like, sizing and about bike weights.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

eb1888 said:


> At this time of year demo days with different models and sizes of bikes can be scheduled through local shops at area trails. Check for timing with all the shops in your area and get on their email lists. You'll benefits from the free on trail testing. Ride every bike in or out of your price range. You can learn what components you like, sizing and about bike weights.


Will do, ty sir.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

My strategy for years has been to purchase a used bike that fits me well and then replace / upgrade parts as they break or as I find things that work better for my riding. Complete bikes are almost always going to be a better value than building piece by piece. My current investment in several bikes is roughly 10% of their original retail value.

I've also found that for my riding I don't need the top of the line of everything. I usually rode the newest and top of the line bikes / components when I worked in the bike industry, but now I prefer good quality things that work well, but are not flashy or super expensive.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

sgltrak said:


> My strategy for years has been to purchase a used bike that fits me well and then replace / upgrade parts as they break or as I find things that work better for my riding. Complete bikes are almost always going to be a better value than building piece by piece. My current investment in several bikes is roughly 10% of their original retail value.
> 
> I've also found that for my riding I don't need the top of the line of everything. I usually rode the newest and top of the line bikes / components when I worked in the bike industry, but now I prefer good quality things that work well, but are not flashy or super expensive.


Totally understand, I believe top of the line or close to that for tires... strong and sturdy wheels for the abuse quality suspension with enough travel to not bottom out and get a huge thud, mid range brakes, quality crank/cassette/chain.

Everything breaks, even if it's top notch. I'm not so familiar with the top brands the enthusiasts usually utilize for upgrades. I just know from what I see from manufacturer's sites... like sram, shimano and raceface... if there is something similar or better I'm not aware of them.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

The deal with this, OP, is that you simply don't know what you don't know.

It's not all about knowing which manufacturers are quality or not. 

Honestly, that's just a small part of it. There's a massive number of manufacturers making quality bike parts. Some of those manufacturers are quite small. 

Ergonomics are a HUGE part of it. This is something you simply aren't dealing with on cars or computers to the same level. It's a massive waste of money to spend a pile on a well-reviewed component that you wind up not liking because it simply doesn't fit. Without having any frame of reference, you can wind up doing the same thing over and over and over and over again. Most of it has large elements of personal preference. Preferences that are oftentimes pretty fluid when you're a new rider.

You also don't know the first thing about what's compatible with what at this point. Some things are, and some aren't. There are some very complex compatibilities for some things. There are also quite a few fit standards for certain parts. Keeping the whole pile straight to buy the right stuff the first time takes time to learn.

You're better off buying a whole bike and then learning everything bit by bit as you learn to maintain and service each part, utilizing bike shops a little more to start with, and relying on them less and less as you acquire the tools and knowledge you'll need. After you've ridden a bike for awhile, and demo'd a bunch of different things, and wrenched on your own bike for awhile, you'll be better equipped to build a bike from the ground up. And most of it is about figuring out the ergonomics you like and sorting out other preferences.


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## blkangel (Aug 8, 2014)

And unlike buying aftermarket car parts and computer parts there is a way to say I have this bike now show me what fits it. 

Like a car you need an exhaust, brakes, an intake. You go to the site put in your year make and model and bam you see what fits. 

There are computer build websites that check compatibility. 

That just simply does not exist for bikes. You have to figure out what headset, what bottom bracket fits your frame and what crank fits that bottom bracket. What hub standard the frame and fork use, what type of free hub it has because that determines the cassette type. A lot of little things can be missed or purchased incorrectly because you forgot to look at this spec or that spec. 

Not trying to steer you away from doing a custom build, it is a great experience and I do it with all my bikes, it is part of the fun of a new bike. But from experience it can be difficult building up if you are new. 

Also set aside a chuck of money for tools. You will need a chain tool, hex keys, maybe a bottom bracket tool or press, hacksaw or pipe cutter, if you are getting carbon bars a torque wrench is a good idea. Not the big ft lb one you also have, on that is accurate at like 5nm.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Harold bringing truth and wisdom, as usual. Also good advice from blkangel.

A hardtail is a good starter choice. Gently used if you can find one. A $1000 budget new is kind of minimal to avoid making compromises and might get you a very nice used one.

Things to look for are a fork with an air (as opposed to coil) spring and hydraulic brakes. A tapered headset usually follows an air fork. Through axle hubs (as opposed to 9mm QR) broaden your ability to upgrade wheels and hubs. Tubeless ready rims are nice and save some fussing when you go down that road. A dropper post is nice but easy enough aftermarket. 

A 1x10/11/12 drivetrain could be especially nice for you if you have been out of the bike game for a while. They avoid front derailleurs, which are always a bit of a pain, but limit your gear range. Since you aren't used to a super-wide range of gears, might as well start with 1x, as they are easier to maintain. That said, 2x and 3x drivetrains are fine, I wouldn't rule anything out because of it, or pay a lot of extra money to avoid.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

See, that's the sort of info I'm talking about. Had to stir you up a bit heh. 

Just to clarify, newegg and pcpartpicker (which are more mainstream for PC building sites) do not have a cookie cutter compatibility listing as per your build. You have to know what works to build a working machine. I'm not talking about socket types for processors, compatibility with RAM which could cause crashes and even if your motherboard accepts 1151 processors it might not accept a newer version or older as per BIOS version would allow. Same goes with bottle necking the device we weaker components as per balance of CPU and GPU vs RAM.

Car parts are more plug and play via make and model but certain cars do not have such a cookie cutter options like a Civic would have. I have an underdog 2012 B16 Sentra... and it has barely any parts. i Did research and found out the chassis platform is shared with a lot of oversea's JDM models... C-platform and one of it's siblings had a 2 point lower nose bar and a FTSB which I estimated would of be compatible for my car... This is me eyeballing what I had with JDM pics. trial and error... and eureka  
Here is the FTSB and a 3 point nose bar I had to go get fab'd
https://i.imgur.com/nyHTGC6.jpg

Also fab'd the rear under brace. (it's in red)
https://i.imgur.com/fFZ39Gy.jpg

The 2 point bar from japan (white)
https://i.imgur.com/xeAWtUZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1oF6Tou.jpg

Fab'd a trunk bar simulating rear strut bar.
https://i.imgur.com/cftfao1.jpg

Chaged my front endlinks swapped out the 23mm front sway bar with a 25mm SE-R Sway bar
https://i.imgur.com/gwuW4S9.jpg

BC Coilovers (no pics of that and retrofitted my headlamps + rewiring everything)
https://i.imgur.com/gYmXvhf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FRhQNVQ.jpg

test fit before prep and paint
https://i.imgur.com/ZB1gSxP.jpg

Not trying to sound like a know-it-all here... I'm really comfortable with building and undertaking new challenges but of course under the right guidance which is why I registered here (and on another bike site) Not trying to find something easy... just something right.. for me 

I really do appreciate the info!


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## blkangel (Aug 8, 2014)

Like i wasn’t trying to steer you away from it, just trying to mention some pitfalls. You seem to be a thorough person so you will probably be in good shape for a custom build. For some people when they are new it is harder for them because I think they don’t put in the time to understand all the different variables and standards. Pick a frame and read up on hub standards and bottom bracket standards. Most of the confusion is in those areas in my opinion.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

I have not steered away, I'm actually more intrigued yet, I won't get ahead of myself nor be cocky about things. I will take under consideration and learn as I go with a premade frame and modify that. It's different to view things on the web with few angles and information compared to having it up front to tinker with.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

What are a good starter/mid-ranged premade frames to look into?


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

Not trying to be a d!ck, but do you mean good starter/mid-range complete bikes, as opposed to a total custom build? I admit I have not read every post in this thread.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> What are a good starter/mid-ranged premade frames to look into?


not really any such thing. this is another reason to just buy a complete bike to start with.

The vast majority of bike manufacturers only sell completes, unless you buy their absolute most expensive frames. So right away, that rules out most of the big brands. Because you'll blow your budget on the frame only.

If you limit yourself to the used market, you could find one of those...maybe. The used market will be a huge mixed bag. A little of this, a little of that. Sizing will be all over the board. Most won't fit you. Limiting yourself to new, you're looking at full custom hand-built, boutique manufacturers, mixed quality catalog frames (meaning, some will be good bikes, others less so), or direct-from-china stuff that can either be respectable quality or substandard death traps.

Starting where you are, you absolutely WILL spend more money building the bike from the frame up than working with a complete bike. Especially considering the tool purchases you'll have to make, and the visits to bike shops you'll also have to make for certain things. The only way you're going to get away with spending less than retail is by limiting yourself to used stuff which will limit your choices even more and getting REALLY lucky on something major as a giveaway, which is not likely to happen at all.

I just finished building up a boutique USA-made steel hardtail. I got lucky and found a used frame in my size for $750 (retail is over $1k for that frame). I probably spent more than I would have with the same build as a complete bike. But I also got exactly what I wanted, and I'm not new to this. I learned a long time ago that if you start building a bike from the frame up, your budget becomes open-ended as soon as you make that decision. The last 3 bikes I've built, I've had access to deals that kept the price acceptable to me. For my most recent one, it took me 6 months to acquire all of the parts because of the need to manage my cash flow. If you don't already have a bike to ride, screw that.

And yeah, I build my own pc's, too. And I DIY lots of other stuff. I didn't start from scratch building any of that stuff. I started learning about computer **** 30 years ago when my dad brought home his first one. And my father worked me through my first pc build when I went to college. My first bike build was a rigid singlespeed. I started with some POS aluminum frame I got for $25. I got some donor parts (the wheels were biggies, but they were in rough shape and I had to repair them). I probably had about $200 in that bike all-in. THAT was an excellent first build. Without shifty bits or suspension, it kept the build simple. I had another bike already, so I was able to fiddle. I learned a lot with it.

I'm saying save the custom build for later. Buy a complete bike and have fun riding now. Learn to maintain it. Buy new parts if you decide you hate something, or if you break something. When you get to the point that you'd ready for something new, then maybe consider building it. You'll hopefully have decided a few things you liked or disliked about what you had before, and will be able to say WHY you would choose a particular fork over another, for example (from the manufacturers Rock Shox, Fox, MRP, DVO, Cane Creek, SR Suntour, Wren, Marzocchi, Manitou, Trust, Cannondale, Motion, Lauf, Adroit, etc). And you'll have a bike to ride while you acquire parts and build up the new one.

Working in shops, some of the worst "home mechanic" jobs I saw brought into the shop for the mechanics to fix were from cocky guys who thought that because they did xxx at home, that they'd have no problem with a bike. And then they f*cked up something on their bike. Occasionally destroying the frame or some other expensive part.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Harold's right, you don't know what you don't know. And that has nothing to do with your skill as a mechanical technician. It's what you don't know about riding bikes on trails and how and what you like to ride and why certain frames and assemblages of components deliver what you want and others don't.

You could build a technically fantastic bike, even at some bargain price, but it might well be a bike that you hate, or at least don't enjoy nearly as much as you might after you acquire some riding experience.

Building and fiddling with bikes may be a great hobby for you, in addition to mountain biking, but you're going to need to get your feet wet first, and the fastest, most economical way to do that is an off-the-shelf bike and trial and error with that bike and with others. 

Figuring out what you want to build will be an ongoing, close to lifelong, process.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> I have not steered away, I'm actually more intrigued yet, I won't get ahead of myself nor be cocky about things. I will take under consideration and learn as I go with a premade frame and modify that. It's different to view things on the web with few angles and information compared to having it up front to tinker with.


What you're missing in this equation is how it rides when you're done tinkering with it. And whether its designed tendencies fit your preferences, abilities, and trail types.

No one can tell you, and you can't figure out by reading, for example, whether you want a "hardtail" bike with only a fork suspension, or a full suspension bike. And then if you want full suspension, which of the various suspension kinematic designs you want/like/need. Or which suspension components to install in it. And what brakes and drivetrain, and rims, spokes, hubs and tires.

Playing with bikes is going to be like "modding" your vehicle. You buy the vehicle first, then you learn to drive it and then you figure out whether you want to turn it into an autocross racer, a rally car, or a drag racer. Or a 4x4.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

I think I might go with either one of these...
https://www.jensonusa.com/Diamondback-Overdrive-Carbon-Comp-29
https://www.jensonusa.com/Diamondback-Overdrive-Carbon-Pro-29

Their former price was 2K+

Forks seem good for a starter but 100mm travel.. was trying to get 120~140 or so but that can be changed later after I get a feel. Going to see if a local shop has one of these.


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## blkangel (Aug 8, 2014)

You can’t just throw a 140mm fork on a bike designed for 100mm. It will throw off the geo. You may be able to get away with 120 but you may want to get some real world feedback before just throwing long travel forks on a bike.


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## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> What are a good starter/mid-ranged premade frames to look into?


While I agree with some of the above that "you don't know what you don't know", I can empathize with your pimp-your-ride nature.

I also personally don't like SRAM NX on almost everything hardtail. It leaves you with HG-driver wheels but a SRAM base where all upgrades have XD-driver.

You don't know if you like:
- rocks & roots, flow, cross-country, bike-packing, sand/snow, etc, etc.
- Steel, Al, Carbon
- "Modern Geometry" or ?
- 29, 29+, 27.5, 27.5+, Fat
- Shimano guy or Sram guy
- Chris King, Hadley, I9, DT-Swiss hubs
- HG driver, XD-driver, New Shimano micro-spline 
- Fox, Rockshox, Manitou, full rigid
etc.

I think you would be pretty safe picking a frame that you can test/demo ride as a full bike. Then go down the rabbit hole of picking parts where you can look at the full bike specs as reference.

These come to mind:

Kona Honzo ST:
Frame: https://www.konaworld.com/honzo_st_frame.cfm
Bike: https://www.konaworld.com/honzo_st_se.cfm

Salsa Timberjack:
Frame: https://salsacycles.com/bikes/timberjack/2019_timberjack_frame
Bike: https://salsacycles.com/bikes/timberjack/2019_timberjack_nx_eagle_29

Surly:
Krampus: https://surlybikes.com/bikes/krampus
Karate Monkey: https://surlybikes.com/bikes/karate_monkey

If it were me, I'd look hard at a Krampus, build a set if wheels around Hadley hubs and a 1x11 SRAM drivetrain (GX or better... 1x12 is overkill for FL, but you could upgrade later on the XD hub). Try full rigid for a while, and if you need front suspension for Florida add a Manitou Mattoc Pro (for example). Something like this would be a hardtail that will always make you smile and happy to have in your quiver even if you find out you also need a $10k carbon full suspension machine later.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Those aren't a bad deal. But, if you could acquire a similar deal (proportionate reduction) on an aluminum frame, you'd probably save $4-500.

In fact, for $1600, you could probably find an Al hardtail with a better fork and/or hardware. A couple of those listed above probably qualify.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Believe me, I'm taking in all this info.

Are there other sites like jensonusa to compare brands side by side vs price points?


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## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

J_Westy said:


> These come to mind:


I should add the Santa Cruz Chameleon to the list:
Frame (Aluminum $749 / Carbon $1599)
Bike (Aluminum "S" Spec with SRAM GX 12, $3199)
https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/chameleon


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> What are a good starter/mid-ranged premade frames to look into?





Boulder Pilot said:


> Not trying to be a d!ck, but do you mean good starter/mid-range complete bikes, as opposed to a total custom build? I admit I have not read every post in this thread.


I actually thought using the word "premade" would have sufficed but my mistake... What I meant was preassembled packages... bikes already sold with solid frames with components already installed (even if they're crappy or subpar to later upgrade. I already am taking under consideration NOT to do a full custom without gaining the experience needed... so please, let's move on with the topic to what is currently being spoken. The bikes listed is a prime example of what I'm looking into as a starter/mid-ranged/grade sort of bike where the geometry is solid. Granted I have a lot to learn and I always welcome info from those whom know a vast amount of the subject but don't be douchy about it. Everything exists... so, simply stating that it doesn't is unacceptable. Like mentioned waaaay above, this is a preference hobby, not something that is absolute by the masses... someone can be a mongoose fan (i know a shitty bike sold at Walmart) and never need to "over spend" (their mentality) on something of better quality. Just because someone is not particular in the brand Sram and is more towards Shimano doesn't make the brand's quality ****. Someone, unfortunately, had a bad experience and damned the brand or model of the brand to hell.

Which is why I decided to pick the categories to make this a bit cocky and controversy to spike a good conversation to get the correct information out of each type of preference up until I decide to go to a shop and get a feel of things as J_Westy has suggested... along with others who have before him in this post.

I'm very familiar as to what suspension travel affects rigidity and the geometry of a chassis. If you didn't see, I fabricated many parts for my vehicle which has more complex physics than that of a bike. Where I also had to tweak to my preference (whoa, similarities... :O) as to how stiff I needed things to make a 90 degree turn at 40/50mph or more. Changing damping, making sure the spring rate was adequate, minimizing body roll with reinforcement of the chassis and even proper psi of each tire to make sure there isn't unnecessary tire roll to add to chassis roll.

Miami, FL trails which are https://miamionthecheap.com/13-free-cheap-bike-trails-miami-dade/

HT + front suspension I deem necessary... not a lot of bumps ups and downs and harsh terrain which a front suspension up to 120mm of travel should be enough to absorb the impacts and smoothen things out... anything more as mentioned yeah is overkill for FL.. rear suspension to me is not needed. I don't want to tire out because of pedal movement and the rear suspension is absorbing me. (Might be a misconception but that's what I heard and it sort of makes sense if you're not hitting a mountain trail (which Florida has none).



J_Westy said:


> While I agree with some of the above that "you don't know what you don't know", I can empathize with your pimp-your-ride nature.
> View attachment 1252995


I really don't have a pimp my ride sort of attitude... I don't need to fill my car with unnecessary parts that are not functional and more for showing off. The DRL is installed and retrofit is half showing off and for use... HID projection > LED projection > Halogen... I had no DRL's in my car and are absolutely vital in FL (shitty drivers) and want an added level of awareness from this terrible drivers. the LED projected fogs are vanity and there is barely any fog in FL. Everything else is functional to my specifications, as needed.

I'm just emitting my nature of no fear in challenges that I'm willing to undertake via my technical skills in both PC and Mechanics.

Every hobby has it's "thing" where ignorance will rape you... which is why I'm willing to invest my time in the hobby and in these sorts of forums where there is a plethora of info to help guide even the most simple novice to being able to create their one of a kind bike.


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## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm weary of hearing about your complex car and gaming rig prowess, so I'm out.

But I'll leave you with this:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-carbon-and-aluminium-wheels-head-to-head.html


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

My vehicle isn't complex, like you all I don't like my "prowess" to be challenged in comparison to another hobby which have similarities within their differences. I just stated those two to further engage in conversation in my technical skill in general to assure that putting a bike together is not going to be too hard for me... but a negative reaction came about due to the OP state I don't have a bike nor current product knowledge in components which was my initial concern of not knowing what is quality. Yet, you all let it be known that it's more preference above all else. 

I greatly appreciate all the information as I have said in previous posts and I'm considering going the route of already assembled bike brand (above links) and later upgrading upon feel. Yet, for some reason my response was ignored and continued rambling about no knowledge and preference and down-talking about my pimp my ride attitude... which you all have the same attitude just towards the forum's subject, pimp-my-bike which doesn't stray too far. 

I'm always about functionality over show... 

Sorry that I wore you down Westy on OT stuff, it wasn't my intentions.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

no bs

get a Giant XTC


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

127.0.0.1 said:


> no bs
> 
> get a Giant XTC


How are the suntour forks? Usually see people nutting over fox or rockshox


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

suntour forks are acceptable at the price range bikes come with...

suntour knows how to build a suspension fork, they OEM for DVO which is one of the best if not the best (DVO design and specs, suntour is the factory)

people typically upgrade from Suntour to something else once they know they'll start needing more action and feel from a fork


suntour raidon is equal to rock shox recon


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Good to know, that inspires more confidence in the brands that are provided by manufacturers. After I get a good list of the prospects I'm going to hit shops and look for events (rent/test).

So far this is what I have, price range is Highest to Lowest.
https://www.canyon.com/en-us/mtb/exceed/2019/exceed-cf-sl-6-0-pro-race
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/xtc-advanced-29-3
https://haromtb.com/collections/xc-performance/products/flc-27-5-comp-2019
https://haromtb.com/collections/xc-performance/products/subvert-ht5-2019
https://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Bike/ProductDetail?Id=1d9642e7-86d9-4aa0-b121-79a92ce9599b
https://haromtb.com/collections/model-year-end-clearance/products/subvert-ht7-2017

I'm going through all the brands recognizable and recommended... I'm by "J" now.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Brand winds up being a bit of a distraction, in the end. Yeti has been a glorious brand for most of its existence, yet currently has warranty issues so bad I don't think most would recommend them.

Some, like Santa Cruz, put out pretty consistently good and well-liked bikes. Some put out pretty good bikes that tend to be pretty consistently over-priced for what you get (without naming names, the big ones that tend to have dealer networks or stores that mostly handle their bikes almost to the exclusion of other brands). On various sales (last years models, etc.) some of these rules of thumb go out the window. On-line brands (Canyon, YT, Fezzari, others) seem to be great and pushing price points, but it can be hard to impossible to test-ride.

You can mostly assume that a known brand's frame (with the occasional outlier like current Yeti) is going to be pretty solid and the choice boils down to geometry and suspension design, and then the menu of components.

But, all in all, it's not a bad idea to kind of see what's out there. Then ride what you can throw a leg over to try to confirm what your research tells you and maybe give you some basis for winnowing it down by type, feature, and price.

Regardless of how careful you are with your first bike choice, you are probably going to learn a ton on it about what you like and dislike about the bike, its components, and the type of riding you like to do. You may get lucky and be content for several years, or you may want another bike pretty darn quick. There's probably something to be said for restraining the budget on your first bike for this reason. You certainly aren't guaranteed to find a long term bike by spending $5k+ on it.

Also note that, perhaps intentionally, perhaps not, you seem to have landed on quite a few "cross country" hardtails. These have a geometry characterized by steep headtube angles, longer chainstays, shorter travel forks, and weight (rather than durability) conscious builds. They are geared toward racing in milder terrain. Such a bike might be fine or even perfect in Florida, depending on how you like to ride.

Current "all purpose" or "trail" or even "all mountain" geometry is different and more adapted to excelling on all kinds of terrain. One of the key differentiators between XC and Trail geometry is head tube angle of less than about 68-69 degrees (geometry is getting slacker and slacker, meaning headtube getting toward 65-66 degrees on some bikes).

A lot of hardtails have more XC oriented geometry than full-suspension bikes, but there are "slack" or "aggressive" hardtails and it may behoove you to figure out which type suits you.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Sweet info there... the higher of a degree head tube angle the less slack it is being better for rougher terrain?

Here is the next and last set after doing my research... I'm listing them here for my own reference which will dwindle them down upon more knowledge being gained and if you all go over any of the one's I've listed help me single out some more prospects... The Vitus I will be listing seems to be a good find... along with that overdrive I posted a few posts back.

Again, highest to lowest in terms of pricing. 
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/mens-chisel-expert/p/154335?color=239070-154335
https://www.konaworld.com/big_honzo_dl.cfm
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/fuse-expert-27-5/p/155027?color=236322-155027
https://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/nemesisrace.html
https://www.konaworld.com/honzo_dl.cfm
https://ninerbikes.com/products/air-9
Vitus
https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/chameleon (D aluminum)
https://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/komodoa1.html
https://www.konaworld.com/big_honzo.cfm
https://www.konaworld.com/honzo.cfm
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...rocaliber/procaliber-6/p/23118/?colorCode=red

*edit* added the overdrives to this list

https://www.jensonusa.com/Diamondback-Overdrive-Carbon-Comp-29
https://www.jensonusa.com/Diamondback-Overdrive-Carbon-Pro-29


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

By no means do I expect my first bike to be a success, one could only hope that everything will pan out and feel good to whatever riding type I do decide to adapt to. I want to have fun while I try to kill myself lol. 

Obviously knowing the physics of the bike's helps greatly in that fun factor.


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## Shartist (Aug 15, 2018)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> Sweet info there... the higher of a degree head tube angle the less slack it is being better for rougher terrain?


"Rougher terrain" is kind of vague. Very generally speaking, lower head tube angle stretches out the front of the bike adding stability at the cost of some turning radius/manueverability (let's not get into offset forks etc, you're looking for basics) and making it easier to handle the bike in steep terrain without going over the bars. One must also consider bottom bracket height for rough chunky terrain. A bike that is uber low and slack may struggle in big-n-chunky terrain if there isn't enough BB clearance-pedal bashing etc...

Good luck, go ride some stuff. People have provided you a ton of info. Go ride and figure out what you like.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> Obviously knowing the physics of the bike's helps greatly in that fun factor.


Good luck with that. The physics of riding a bicycle aren't even fully understood by the physicists.



Shartist said:


> go ride some stuff.


We're definitely beyond that point. OP's list doesn't resemble a "short list" in any fashion at this point. It's time to start weeding stuff out of that list and figure out why OP doesn't like them in order to hone the list into a viable short list.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Maybe it's just me but I think OP is thinking way too deeply into their first bike. It's a bike, not a space shuttle. Just pick something up local on Pink Bike and go ride. You can't shop from a list of bikes when you have no experience riding any of them or have any current bikes to compare with regards to performance. 

Just go out and find a Trek and Specialized dealer and test ride their bikes.


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## NigelMTB (Oct 4, 2017)

Battery said:


> Maybe it's just me but I think OP is thinking way too deeply into their first bike. It's a bike, not a space shuttle. Just pick something up local on Pink Bike and go ride. You can't shop from a list of bikes when you have no experience riding any of them or have any current bikes to compare with regards to performance.
> 
> Just go out and find a Trek and Specialized dealer and test ride their bikes.


That sums it all up. If you try to break down and dissect every model and component out there, riding season will be over with. You have a budget in mind so visit some shops, throw a leg over a few bikes and ride paying attention to fit and comfort. You don't have to spend your budget on your first bike cause it will be your First bike. You can always upgrade it over time or buy a better bike later and have a plus 1. The first bike can always be a neighborhood bike or a great way to get a friend to go riding with you and eventually in the sport.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Alright...


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## Shartist (Aug 15, 2018)

Harold said:


> We're definitely beyond that point. OP's list doesn't resemble a "short list" in any fashion at this point. It's time to start weeding stuff out of that list and figure out why OP doesn't like them in order to hone the list into a viable short list.


Can't weed it out if he hasn't ridden anything. This is all too hypothetical. He needs to ride any three there and figure out relative to one another what he likes or doesn't like to provide some frame of reference.

I'm with battery, pick something used/cheap up until you've got a general bearing or go demo.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Like most things mechanical, theoretical only goes so far, then empirical takes over. Everything on a bike no matter how expensive or engineered, is a compromise of qualities (as in a slack bike probably has better steering and position for non-flat riding, but lowers the ground clearance compared to an XC bike, which will be opposite).

The qualities you like in your bike can only be effectively "reverse engineered." You ride it, you like it, or parts of it, and hate others. You figure out what characteristics you THINK make you like it and buy a bike that has those characteristics (and avoids the ones you think you don't lie) in a mixture that you think you will enjoy. It's imprecise enough that you may be dead wrong, and your odds are better of being right by test riding than by making free-body diagrams and kinematic analyses.

And it's going to take some riding experience to even figure out what things are properly attributed to the bike.

So yeah, demo a few bikes and/or buy a ~$1000 hardtail with an air fork and ride. Start acquiring some empirical and worry about the theoretical later.


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

I forgot you are near Miami. Walk into Mack Cycle and grab a 2019 Giant ATX 2, helmet, gloves for $500. Perfect ride for Florida.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Shartist said:


> Can't weed it out if he hasn't ridden anything. This is all too hypothetical. He needs to ride any three there and figure out relative to one another what he likes or doesn't like to provide some frame of reference.
> 
> I'm with battery, pick something used/cheap up until you've got a general bearing or go demo.


Riding/demoing bikes was fist mentioned in post #9 and reiterated frequently afterwards. I was being efficient by not saying it explicitly again, but it was exactly what I meant by "weeding" bikes out. By riding bikes and eliminating the ones he doesn't like for whatever reason or another.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

I can get a little bit of the OP's sentiment. Bikes (and cars, and computers) all cost lots of money. No one likes to make a bad purchase, or waste money. In situations like the OP's, so you research what you can, and make an educated guess based on the things you think you know.

If I were the OP, I'd either 1) Go buy a "random" hardtail on Pinkbike or Craigslist (making sure it had hydraulic disk brakes, and is in good condition at the very least), or 2) buying a good value $600-1300 hardtail (Diamondback Sync'r, Vitus Sentier, Nukeproof Scout, Vitus Nucleus, Whyte 901, Trek Roscoe, etc).

Based on the information available, a hardtail should be good/sufficient for your area for now. A used ~2012-2015 hardtail won't loose much value while you own it, so it is a low risk way of figuring out some of the things you currently don't know.

A new "value" hardtail is similar, more expensive, but more likely to keep you happy for longer (better geometry, likely better specs), and again, if you want to change things up after you find out its not your ideal bike (which may or may not happen, those bikes are pretty good), you're still not out much, as their resale is better than average.

Any demos you can grab, or any friends bikes that you can borrow/try out can give you some idea of what you're looking for, and help you make an even more educated guess.

And building your own? I get that sentiment. Trust me, you're not the only one that's checked to see if the memory you want is on the QVL, or flashed a bios using a borrowed CPU to update a motherboard for a newer CPU (my username stands for "*O*ver*C*lock.*N*et Logan", I wrote the Socket AM2+ overclocking guides for Overclock.net). I also do all the work on my own cars, build some of my own audio stuff (subwoofers for the home theater), etc, etc.

Others have mentioned that its more complicated than you think, even if the actual mechanical bits usually aren't that complicated if you're mechanically inclined (I mean, at some point, its just turning wrenches). They've covered that well.

One tthing they didn't really touch on though, was that building your own is very rarely cheaper like it can be with other hobbies. The big companies have huge economies of scale, allowing them to offer bikes at prices you couldn't match (especially at the low range). The smart money is to buy a used or "strong value" bike, and upgrade what you don't like, or what breaks. Or even just sell it as is as you realize that you want something entirely different, so no need to waste money on the current one.

Good luck making a decision, I hope you find something you're comfortable with .


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Honestly, I wasn't really considering building a bike from the frame.. Someone mentioned up top to do so. On another thread someone mentioned custom or die... so, I started to take in the info as an IT Admin and went on the compatibility route of things... I'm weighing all options and I get lead back to the same... to ride it, test it get a feel for it then make decision which I already accepted to do. 

Building your own PC usually does save the $$$$ and I did look around at parts for the bike to make my comparison and parts are not cheap when you start building a bike from what I saw. Even if you start off with a $500 frame everything adds up fast which makes heading to manufacturers more appealing. 

I really just wanted to familiarize myself with the brands and products to determine quality for my purchase. Regardless the feel and riding style play a huge roll so, no worries, I'm heeding the advice probably this weekend I'm going to make it out to a shop a coworker of mine here has a Cannondale Trail 6, I'm going to see if we can meet up at a trail and test his bike out. it's a 2017 so it's not that old. 

Just want to say though, that I do appreciate all the info given to me to make this decision. I'm sure I was a pain in the ass... heh...


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> Honestly, I wasn't really considering building a bike from the frame.. Someone mentioned up top to do so. On another thread someone mentioned custom or die... so, I started to take in the info as an IT Admin and went on the compatibility route of things... I'm weighing all options and I get lead back to the same... to ride it, test it get a feel for it then make decision which I already accepted to do.
> 
> Building your own PC usually does save the $$$$ and I did look around at parts for the bike to make my comparison and parts are not cheap when you start building a bike from what I saw. Even if you start off with a $500 frame everything adds up fast which makes heading to manufacturers more appealing.
> 
> ...


When riding buddy's or acquaintances bikes, ask them what they like and dislike about them and see if you can detect those things and agree or disagree with their view. That's a good way to get pretty pointed, pretty quick while test riding.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> Honestly, I wasn't really considering building a bike from the frame.. Someone mentioned up top to do so. On another thread someone mentioned custom or die... so, I started to take in the info as an IT Admin and went on the compatibility route of things... I'm weighing all options and I get lead back to the same... to ride it, test it get a feel for it then make decision which I already accepted to do.
> 
> Building your own PC usually does save the $$$$ and I did look around at parts for the bike to make my comparison and parts are not cheap when you start building a bike from what I saw. Even if you start off with a $500 frame everything adds up fast which makes heading to manufacturers more appealing.
> 
> ...


Understood, I'm a research-oholic too . Just don't look at how many posts I had asking about bike stuff before I bought the bike I just got .

Like most things, bikes have an inflection point. Where below, each dollar spent really does give you something meaningfully better, but beyond that, you're really only getting something that is lighter, or fancier (to an extent of course).

I've found that the inflection point price range for a hardtail, is about $1000-1400 (on average), and $2000 - 3000 for a full suspension bike. "ish" of course.

Some things that are good to call out, from either my experience, or my reading/observing, that may help you.


Air forks are good. Even if the low end models don't have great damping/suspension characteristics... they at least can be setup for your weight properly, which isn't always true of coil forks. I think its worth the cash to get one.
Rockshox is sneaky. The Rockshox Revelation (mid budget fork), and Pike (High dollar fork), use the same chassis/frame. You can upgrade a Revelation to be the same as the pike, with a ~$250 part. The same holds true for Yari (burlier mid budget fork), and the Lyric (high budget premium fork). It MAY be worth looking for a model with at least a revelation, or yari, as if you find yourself wanting to upgrade, its a $250 part and some wrenching time, vs $900 for a new Pike.
Especially on a budget, 12 speed is overrated, especially where you live, without yuuuge climbs that go on for hours. I have 11 speed SRAM NX, and its 100% fine, even here in "climb for an hour and a half, and then enjoy 5-10 minutes of descending" land.
I'd try to get at least shimano SLX, or SRAM NX/GX level shifters/cassettes. Poor drivetrains are the worst, as shifting is one of the most frequent things you do on the trail. Its not worth it to have to fight it all the time.
Hydraulic disk brakes are like the #1 thing I want in a bike. Take away many things and I'll be fine. Not this one though. Its night and day different.
Dropper posts are worth the spend, particularly in undulating terrain like you likely have.
I prefer thru-axles over QR axles. They can't "just fall out", and stiffen up the bike/steering.

Other than that, I feel like its mostly about fit, preferences, and location/riding style that will influence what you want, which I can't answer for you.

But, there, you have some unsolicited advice/opinions to go research now at least .

Good luck on the search .


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Thank you very much Logan, I do appreciate the vast information and knowledge you've bestowed. Throughout this whole thread it has helped me in a deeper understanding in what I'm generally looking for. I've always been a huge handling buff with my car so I love rigidity/stiffness and wide tires... I'm actually thinking of a bike with dual tire clearance to run 29ers and/or 27.5 and +.

Any insight on the Ibis DV9?


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Ibis makes great bikes, as a general proposition. I'm not sure I would spend the money on carbon on your first bike. Carbon is light and has some nice (stiff) characteristics, but generally these are regarded as "icing on the cake." That is, one of the last refinements you want to pay a premium for when speccing a bike. That is when everything else is damn near perfect for you and you're just trying to make it lighter, or the frame is perfect and only available in carbon.

Because you're new to this and need to sort out a bunch of broad variables like geometry, wheel size, FS or hardtail, fork travel, SRAM or Shimano, etc. etc. start cheap but decent and that means aluminum. Save carbon for when you're getting your grail bike. Also, an aluminum frame is going to be more forgiving of wrecks and booboos than a carbon frame, which can be destroyed in one drop or less-than-serious crash.

Cars are a terrible analogy for bikes, for the most part, so you can quit trying to translate what you know about cars to bikes.

Some of the best deals in decent hardtails going right now are the Vitus Sentier and Nucleus at Chain Reaction Cycles and the Marin Nail Trail 6 and 7 at the same place. The Marins are slightly better deals but limited stock because CRC bought at fire sale from Performance Bike. So hurry on those. All of them meet ocnLogan's basic criteria, which are a real good start. And an unstated part of Logan's criteria is that they provide a bike that can be upgraded (maybe better fork, maybe lighter wheels) without serious compromise. Older or significantly cheaper bikes may not be similarly upgradeable.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Not sure I know all that much honestly, especially compared to most here, but it seems you and I have similar backgrounds, so the commonality seems to help us make sense of each other .

So, if you're wanting stiffness. Stick with a frame/fork that have thru axles front and rear, and a fork with bigger stanchions (bigger diameter... so like a Fox 34, or Fox 36, or a RockShox Yari, etc). Both of those will reduce flex in corners, which it sounds like you may be likely to notice. Also, "Boost" spacing front and rear on the wheels/hubs (all normal mountain bikes have it now, but not all lower end ones) increases the strength of the wheels (like a triangle with the same height, but wider base), so they should flex less as well (assuming same quality of wheel).

Wider tires on a bike _can _cause the bike to get squirmy in hard cornering, especially at lower air pressures. This is because wider tires also get taller sidewalls (there are no 30, 40, or 50 series low profile tires on bikes). So while a 27.5+ bike might sound appealing because "TRACTION" and "WIDER", you don't see them often nowadays outside of hardtails, where that extra sidewall gives them a bit more "cush". That said, If I was getting a hardtail right now, I'd be sure to get one that fit at least 2.6in tires in the back, but probably wouldn't go over 2.8in.

Like twicehorn, I wouldn't go carbon at first personally, but mostly because I've got other hobbies that clamor for money/etc. If you're into it, and want to go gung ho on the sport straight away, and have the money for it, go for it. But I do think grabbing a versatile aluminum bike first is likely the smart play. Figure out what you like, and what doesn't, then the next bike go full carbon if you want.

I don't know tons about ibis, other than they seem to make very good bikes. If it strikes your fancy, I doubt you'd be unhappy.

That said...

The Marin bikes are a good deal right now, there is no denying that. If they are for you? Thats a different story, and one I can't answer for you. But, from a price/part perspective, they are good at the moment.

This one is a particular standout. Its currently 40% off.

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/marin-nail-trail-7-27-5-hardtail-bike-2018/rp-prod186796

That one has a Rockshox Revelation (the one you can make into the high end pike with a damper change if you want down the road), which is a stiff 35mm stanchion air fork. It has a dropper post (short drop, but it has one at least), boost wheels front and rear, decent brakes, and shimano SLX 11 speed drivetrain.

Personally I may want a touch slacker bike, but the geo on this one is solid.

As twicehorn mentioned, other standouts in the "value" hardtail category, include the Vitus Sentier, Nukeproof Scout, Diamondback Sync'r, Ragley Marley/Big Al.

For full squish bikes, its a bit harder, as there are more options, and they're more varied. And I don't know of any amazing deals atm (there are a few Marin ones, but they're mostly sold out in the desirable sizes/specs).

The Canyon Spectral 6.0 AL is generally a good deal, as is the YT Jeffsey, and Commencal Meta AM. The Whyte T130 SR is a great deal, and I also like the Transition Scout NX, although I think that comes in at $3k. JensonUSA has some good deals on some Banshee stuff, but I'm not sure they still have most sizes in stock.

That might leave more questions than answers again, sorry about that :/. Good luck on the search .


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Regardless of more questions a lot has been answered too. I'll also stop bringing in my car into the conversation to please the gurus .

I read that it's a pain with Canyon's customer service and getting their bikes tuned at shop due to some sizing tool issues with the german company. Since the middleman is cut out their support isn't the best and their discontinuing of parts doesn't help either. 

I look into the mentioned above. Thanks again.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

TwiceHorn said:


> Because you're new to this and need to sort out a bunch of broad variables like geometry, wheel size, FS or hardtail, fork travel, SRAM or Shimano, etc. etc. start cheap but decent and that means aluminum. Save carbon for when you're getting your grail bike. Also, an aluminum frame is going to be more forgiving of wrecks and booboos than a carbon frame, which can be destroyed in one drop or less-than-serious crash.


I'm going to reiterate this. Don't get too blingy with your first bike. Don't get too mired in details until you have better on-the-ground experience with at least some of your options. As a new rider, you WILL be clumsy. You WILL crash, probably a lot. Those two things are hard on bikes/parts and this sport will get expensive FAST if you've gotta replace expensive stuff frequently. Regular maintenance of things like bearings, suspension components, and dropper posts is time consuming or expensive enough as it is. To add replacing broken parts, it can be a lot. Maybe not so much compared to automotive hobbies, but it ALSO means lots of downtime.

You'll also start to develop preferences. Some of them won't matter a whole lot because they're easily replaceable components. But others will matter a whole lot, or will cost a lot to change. Some things will require a base of fitness or skill (or both) before you're really able to distinguish differences.

If you want to spend extra money to start with, spend it on durability/serviceability. Pay attention to the intended use of the bike you buy. Don't buy an xc race bike if you don't plan to race xc, for example. They will have a much higher focus on light weight to go fast, and durability is going to be a lower priority. I agree to wait on your first carbon frame until you know how you'll be riding.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Will do... I've always had a fixed notion on CF>.. but I'll go with wisdom than personal experience until it's gained.

So, another questions... I've looked around youtube and multiple blogger (pros) about this... 27.5 vs 29er

Also... I know that at least for sram the NX, GX X01, XX1 and so on are better as they increase the line up (not only in price...) and their higher variant which is eagle is mostly lighter with some tunes and material changes...

Cheaping out with an NX over an NX Eagle is wise to do or should I consider going GX Eagle or Shimano equivalent (XT) etc? I'm more focused on a 1x11 (FL and all) if it comes in a 1x12 variant it would be fine to have the extra range whenever I would need it (If i go up to TN or something like that). 

and for braking what would be an acceptable stopping power option from Shimano or Sram? Level T vs Guide R... etc..


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> Will do... I've always had a fixed notion on CF>.. but I'll go with wisdom than personal experience until it's gained.
> 
> So, another questions... I've looked around youtube and multiple blogger (pros) about this... 27.5 vs 29er
> 
> ...


Lets see if I can help on any of these.

27.5 vs 29 is just preference. 29'ers will roll over things easier, as each bump looks smaller to them. They are also pretty stable, as they have a lot of rotating mass (more rubber and metal), so when they get up to speed, they hvae more of a gyroscopic effect. 27.5'ers will have less rotating mass, and will often feel more "poppy" (willing to change direction).

Also, generally speaking, 29'ers fit taller riders better. Shorter riders can have issues with the rear tire touching their butt when they're going over really steep stuff.

Neither is "right" or "wrong", as long as it fits you. I see you say you're 5'7", so I'd say 27.5 is "likely" a better choice for you (just guessing based on height).

You've got SRAM figured out. NX is the low end, and then XX1 is the high end. Shimano is similar. You've got Deore on the lower/middle end, then SLX, XT, and finally XTR. The main difference for most of it, is weight, but there is typically some level of "shifting precision" increase as well, but not always.

Personally, as long as you don't go below NX, or Deore/SLX, I think you'll be fine.

12 speed setups usually have wider range cassettes, but the manufacturer typically offsets the way low first gear, by having a bigger front chainring. Case in point, I have a 2018 Kona Process AL 29'er. I have a 30tooth front chainring, and an 11 speed 42-11 cassette in the back. A buddy of mine has the Carbon version in 27.5in wheels. His came with a 12 speed 50-10 cassette in back... but a 34tooth front chainring.

Meaning, our climbing speed is almost the same, but he has more speed at the top end. For my style of mountain biking, where there is very little flat, so far I've not felt the need to be able to pedal a few mph faster. So I wouldn't be worried about needing 12 gears to climb the steep stuff.

Also, with its worth pointing out that you can get wider range 11 speed cassettes if you find yourself needing more range if you go with something like the SRAM NX 11 speed setup (42-11).

Brakes? Its hard to say. How much is your "riding weight" (including helmet, camelback/etc)? And do you know where you'll be riding yet? You usually need "more" brake if you're on longer steeper descents, as the brakes heat up, and thats usually where problems first appear. I'm guessing your area doesn't have as many huge continuous descents, so I'm guessing mid level shimano/sram would be fine (MT500/Level T). Better is better though.

SRAM its basically the Level, Guide, Codes in that order. Shimano has Deore, SLX, XT, XTR, ZEE, Saint.

Anecdotal evidence that "more is more".

My bike came with SRAM Level T brakes, and 200mm front/180mm rear rotors. I'm ~200lbs all loaded up with gear, and, the brakes stopped me. That said, I recently upgraded to TRP Quadiems (similar to SRAM Code, or, a bit more power than the SRAM Guides), and notice a large difference, but one that wasn't really noticeable until I'd used the brakes with more power.

Last year on my old bike I rode a trail with 1200ft of descending all at once, and had to adjust my brakes halfway through. This year, with the Quadiems, I rode the same trail nearly twice as fast, and the brakes didn't need any attention.

Keep the questions coming if you have them .

Good luck un-scrambling my ramblings .


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

You really underestimate your knowledge in this sport. I'm practically learning from you. Among the other posts as well... just your delivery is less jagged than others. 

In other forums (to not hurt the gurus) when my knowledge supersedes the OP I do try to help to the best of my abilities... I like giving proper knowledge so when the OP is going out there to create his/her own project they're at least prepared to undertake it and learn from their mistakes along the way... I'm sure all the info here from every user is correct seeing that no one corrected the other, the issue is the delivery.

I'm understanding whats on paper and the qualities of the brands and the way each manufacturer dresses their product. I'm glad I came here and got this in-depth crash course before I go crashing on a real course. I'm just trying to get a selection to go out to shop and feel them.. I'm not only trying to get the aesthetics down (bling)... figured CF... stiff, strong material/ light...

My frame of mind has always been going fast and being light with stopping power. I know I will hit some spills and probably bust my ass here and there... I read something here that the strength of the manufacturers CF varies from company to company... Ibis and Santa Cruz to name a few I'm looking at use pretty high quality material... and is easily comparable to alum... only difference is if the frame on a CF gets punctured and the fibers break then your SOL... an alum will just dent... again depends on the magnitude of the impact... like a jagged rock or something.

Yet, I understand the notion of inexperience rider taking on a higher than his level instrument and screwing it up while losing money... thanks for looking out


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Ahh, the Lotus school of thought . I've always wanted an Elise.

The main difference about lightness when comparing bikes to cars, is that lightening a car usually (at least for a track/drag car) means removing unnecessary extras, that doesn't impact durability/longevity. Things like sound dampening, all of the extra seats, carpet, radios, the spare tire, etc. With bikes, they don't really have that option. When you're losing weight on a bike, its either down to either stronger/lighter materials, or simply just less material.

Meaning, sometimes lighter weight _can _mean less durable. Back some years ago, the industry was obsessed with lightness, and you heard a lot more about broken frames, and handlebars during those times. This is why you're seeing comments about making sure not to try to take a CF XC race bike to a downhill bike park. It just won't hold up, even though it does likely weigh half of what your typical DH bike does.

I'm not saying that CF is bad at all. Its just chose the right parts for the right use is all.

Oh, and as you said, not all CF is created equal. I'm not in the market for CF, so I haven't investigated it as much as I could have, but I read enough to know that CF varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Some full suspension CF bikes have chainstays/rear triangle made out of Aluminum, as those are one of the more exposed areas on the bike, and eat more rock strikes than most of the others.

You could go with an AL frame for whatever bike you want, and then invest in higher spec components, and/or a higher end/lighter weight wheel set. Since wheels are rotating mass, any weight savings there ends up feeling like ~2-3x what the weight difference actually was. So most people say thats the best place to lighten a bike (I say "people" because I haven't done this yet, so I have no experience with it).

AND, since most bikes use the same wheel standards right now, if you custom order some great lightweight wheels, you can transfer those over to your future "dream bike" whenever you get that figured out. In fact, same goes for if you upgrade brakes, or drivetrain. Unless the dream bike is really far in the future and standards change, you should be able to swap most everything over, potentially even just buying the frame only.

Have you narrowed down your bike any yet? Curious to see what is holding your interest at the moment.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Well it was the Ibis, I was utterly obsessed with everything about it... until this morning lol....

Now I'm looking at the Chameleon S+ Alum 27.5, it's pretty light and well Santa Cruz...

I'm going to re-convey my options with all the new info and I will get back at ya lol...

The good news is I have a shop near my parents house where they can order whatever I want... the guy felt a bit lost to me... but whatever we will see once face to face.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

I mean, both of those bikes are really nice bikes. They'll both be great to ride, I'm sure of it.

Neither really represent the type of "high value" that I tend to be attracted to, in terms of price/spec, and are priced more what I'd expect to spend on a full suspension bike. However, the upside, is that I know that at least Santa Cruz has really good resale values.

It does give me an idea of what price range you're trying to hit though. Which is... basically not bargain basement.

Also, it seems that lots of my other go-to's for more "premium" hardtails right now are sold out at the moment, which is a bit of a bummer. As they're spec'd similarly to the two you listed, but priced a fair bit lower. The Whyte 901, and Nukeproof Scout Comp mainly.

Still, you could check out the GG Pedalhead, and Transition Throttle (which is carbon, but on sale in your size)?

And, at the shop by your parents, will they let you take a test ride, to see even what you feel fits you correctly? Or, even better, an actual demo?


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

They're a Giant/Fuji retailer, they won't have a Santa Cruz there. Still I can get a feel of some of them there at that shop like the XTC Advanced + which is CF I'm not sure if they have demos available but I'm sure I can sit on one a bit. 

I can go for a lesser Chameleon D+ alum to save money but it does reflect on the components.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm not too sure I'd get twisted up about brakes or derailleur/drivetrain. Both are an easy, relatively cheap upgrade (compared to wheels or a fork) after you figure out what, if anything, is inadequate about what you've got, particularly brakes. And, drivetrain is a wear items, so after a couple of years you may actually need to replace parts or the whole thing.

OcnLogan's 1200 foot descent is real mountain biking. Don't think you're going to find that in Florida. We don't have much of it in Texas. Cheaper brakes have less stopping power and are more subject to fade, but you're only going to encounter that on long sustained descents of the type you probably wont ride for a year or more, if ever.

The other issue with brakes is their feel, lever travel, and adjustability. And, again, it's going to take you a while to develop a feel for what you like there.

Logan's (and mine) Marin Nail Trail 7 is a better bike for less money, by a fair margin, than the Chameleon D or D+. The Nail Trail 6 is very equivalent, for less than half. 

All of them are suitable starter bikes.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Yeah, I keep forgetting you're in Florida. As twicehorn says, its the heat build up from long steep/fast descents that cause lower end brakes issues. Even my Level T's were just fine for the trails by my house here (200-400ft of descent in ~2500ft), as they didn't have enough time to heat up during the run, and had easily cooled down on the pedal back up.

Comparing like for like, part for part is what helped me compare bikes. I chose suspension, brakes, drivetrain, and if it had a dropper post. 

So I summarized some stuff for you, maybe that will be helpful:

The Chameleon D+ is $1800. It comes with a RockShox Recon air fork, SRAM Level brakes (180mm rotors front and rear), SRAM NX 11 speed drivetrain, and no dropper post.

The Chameleon R+ is $2400. It comes with a Fox Rythm 34 air fork, SRAM Level T brakes (180mm rotors front and rear), SRAM NX Eagle drivetrain, and a dropper post.

The Marin Nail Trail 7 is $1080 on sale, usually $1800. It comes with a RockShox Revelation fork, Shimano MT500 brakes (180mm front rotor, 160mm rear), Shimano SLX 11 speed drivetrain, and a dropper post.

The Marin Nail Trail 6 is $780 on sale, usually $1300. It comes with a RockShox Recon air fork, Shimano BR425 brakes (180mm rotor front, 160mm rear), SRAM NX 11 speed drivetrain, and no dropper post.

The GG pedalhead Ride 2 is $2415 with 27.5+ tires. It comes with RockShox Revelation fork, SRAM Level T brakes (200mm rotor front, 180mm rear), SRAM NX Eagle drivetrain, and a dropper post.

Marin doesn't have the same image as Santa Cruz (or GG, Ibis, Transition), but just looking at the main parts... they're a heck of a deal at this moment. You know the value is getting strong when you could buy the Nail Trail 7, AND a SC Chameleon frame ($750), and have a bike better/roughly equivalent to the R+, and still be cheaper than the R+ (~$1100 + $750 == $1850).

The RockShox Revelation can be upgraded to a Pike for not much money (~$250), but its already better than the ones on the D+/R+ at the same price points. If you want new larger rotors, or brakes, those are cheap (~$30-50 a pop for rotors, $150-400 for brakes). SLX 11 speed is respectable and reliable. If you wanted to jump to NX Eagle like the others, thats like $200.

So even if you upgrade the Nail Trail 7... you're still cheaper than any of the other options. But its eminently ride-able as is.

But, if its not for you, thats also fine. Its just unusual to have such a good deal. This least year Performance bike went out of business, and they were one of the brick and mortar stores that sold Marin. So the excess sold to ChainReactionCycles, which is why its kind of a fire sale atm.


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## Sides (Apr 23, 2019)

you know this is really really far from what you want but if you want value, Commencal has the second hand Clash for 2k (in medium too) with a 180 mm travel RS Yari, 203 mm brake rotors, Guide T brakes, 165 mm travel RS Deluxe RT shock, it really doesn't get much better. And by second hand it means like a couple scratches on the seat stay and down tube (correct me if Im wrong). I guess the only downsides are no dropper and SRAM NX all around, but that's not really a downside as its the same as all your other choices... i mean it does have those descendant cranks. it really doesn't get much better than that, just it doesn't fit your riding.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Marin isn't currently as big or trendy a name as some. But they've been around for 30 years, steadily pumping out bikes that people like and generally don't complaint about. Their current head of product development is a guy from Specialized.

With that long record, they make some current trendy brands look fly by night.

The one thing the low-mid end Marins don't have that some SCs have, is brand-name hubs and rims. The brand name in question is SRAM, not DT Swiss, or Hope. So they may be a step above the Marin's Formulas, or not. People on the forum have nothing real good to say about SRAM or Shimano hubs in comparison to the heavy hitters. People have noted that Marin's no-name wheels are pretty light (1900g someone weighed) and they aren't exploding on people left and right. 

Regardless, while having nice hubs is nice, that's something more advanced riders appreciate than noobs. And they're a wear item. If I blow up my wheels/hubs, I will use that opportunity perhaps to upgrade. In the meantime, who cares.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

So, I narrowed it down to three...

Orbea Laufey 27+ H-LTD 19
Santa Cruz Chameleon (Alum) S+
Ibis DV9 (Again... CF)

Now, I've heeded the warnings and I understand that even though a novice I can be prone to falling thus damaging the CF frame... or merely improperly laying it on a rock etc... yet, it was so difficult to remove that bike from my final 3...

I wasn't able to try out an Orbea because they're mostly online... so there were non at the demos nor in shops... I did manage to try out a Chameleon D+ (originally thinking of going 27.5) and a standard Ibis DV9 up in Viera, FL.... (a bit of a drive.) 

So, the Orbea was removed because I couldn't get a proper feel of the bike which comes down to the other two... I felt more comfortable with the Ibis... after going back and forth with spes/reviews and my own feel for those two I ultimately decided on the DV9...

I ordered it today from Competitive Cyclist (not driving back up to Viera...) which they attended me well...

Frame in White/Teal, Medium
RockShox Pike RCT3 29 Charger DebonAir 130 Boost Fork
Chris King InSet Tapered Headset with Griplock 
TruVativ Descendant 35mm Stem (40mm)
TruVativ Descendant 35mm CF Handlebar
Ergon GA2 Grips
SDG Components Tellis Dropper Seat 31.6x413mm/125mm
WTB Volt Comp Saddle
Sram Dub BSA BB
Complete Sram GX Eagle Drivetrain 175mm/32t
Crank Brothers Stamp 2 Pedals
Shimano XT SM-RT86 Rotor 180mm/160mm
Shimano SLX BL-M7000 Brakes
Stan's NoTube Arch MK3 29ers
Maxxis Minion DHF Wide Trail 3C/EXO/TR 29x2.5 Tires...


Now to find a quality tow hitch and hitch rack for a car (Sentra...) any suggestions..?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Helluva bike for a first mtb. The only real risk in doing it the way you have is that it's a lot of money to put down for something when you have so little experience with it. Hopefully you continue to like it because otherwise, it should be a good bike for quite awhile.

It is a good thing you were able to compare it to another bike in a similar category, though. It can be surprisingly difficult to put hands on hardtails in this category, though it's getting better.

etrailer.com is a good resource for hitches. They carry a couple brands that may fit your car. I like the Torklift ecohitch for something with a slightly different approach. No idea if they make a fit option for your car, but I got mine (for a Subaru) through their website. They're more expensive and typically take a bit more work to install than what etrailer sells, but IMO, if one fits, it's a nice option.

Since you bought a carbon frame, I'll emphasize that any rack you buy should rely on the strength of the frame to hold the bike's weight. For hitch racks, that puts you into tray-style racks. There are a bunch of these on the market. Kuat makes a few nice ones at different prices. The 1upUSA hitch rack is a perennial favorite. Yakima and Thule make their own versions. Saris makes at least one. There's really no shortage of choices. What you should NOT do is purchase the sort of rack that requires your bike to hang from a cradle (like Yakima Ridgeback or Thule Apex, and others). Carbon frames don't like this.

You can get tray style racks that have an arm or clamp that holds the frame to prevent wobble (like Swagman and others do) to save some money. That kind of frame contact is less of an issue than the bike frame actually hanging from the rack, but if I'm going to go so far as to buy a tray style hitch rack, I want zero frame contact. If you do choose a rack with an arm or clamp that contacts the frame, I'd apply paint protection film to the area where the rack contacts the frame.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> So, I narrowed it down to three...
> 
> Orbea Laufey 27+ H-LTD 19
> Santa Cruz Chameleon (Alum) S+
> ...


Glad you found something that you felt fit you well, and that you're excited to ride. Those two things are honestly the most important part .

Oh, and they do make "armor" for CF frames by the way. Most of it is usually on the downtube area, and sometimes by the BB and chainstays. Just know thats available if you're worried about dropping it and cracking the frame.

And no idea on the hitch/rack. I mostly catch rides to the trailhead with my buddy and his truck, so we throw them in the back. I'm sure someone here knows (or, I think there may actually be a subforum for that?).

Hope the bike gets to you soon, and you can get on the trails asap .


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

That's an extremely competent hardtail. Probably not much to object to. Hope you like mountain biking!


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

No worries, I'm excited on the purchase and I miss riding bikes. It's been a long time coming plus hittin' a trail along or with loved one's will help disconnect from the norm day to day Miami life a bit. I've always loved riding when I was young, I'm surprised it took me so long to get another one and get into the sport. 

I know it's more bike than exp but I like to hit the floor running. Granted I'm not trying to set any world records nor going to try crazy things outside of my skill level (one might see on youtube). I'm going to play it safe and learn as I go. Luckly, that co-worker I mentioned wants to hit the trails with me so I can case-study him some but he's another one who hasn't ridden in a while (since 2012). He has a Cannondale Trail 6 or 7, not sure. 

I know I will love/enjoy mountain biking... and not to bring up the subject we shall not name but I've always been a thrill seeker (which is why I had to go hit the Tail of the Dragon up in SC/TN) and quite athletic on top of my techie/hands-on nature, also, I am a quick study... doesn't take me long to get use to things.

Even the rep over at CC.com said, "You got quite the fun ride there!".

I should be expecting this bike sometime late July I think... still gotta get somethings in order like the hitch and the rack, along with a helmet/gloves etc...


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Good to hear you narrowed down your bikes and took at least 2 of them on a test ride. Have fun out there and post a photo when it arrives. Don't go upgrade crazy on that bike. Just get a nice set of flat pedals like Race Face Chesters or OneUp Components composites and you are all set. Oh, don't forget a multitool too!


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Battery said:


> Good to hear you narrowed down your bikes and took at least 2 of them on a test ride. Have fun out there and post a photo when it arrives. Don't go upgrade crazy on that bike. Just get a nice set of flat pedals like Race Face Chesters or OneUp Components composites and you are all set. Oh, don't forget a multitool too!


I ordered the bike this way so I wouldn't be tempted to mod it so quickly.. I believe that it will be set until something breaks. The Crank Brothers Stamp 3 are pretty flat and wide... we will see how they feel if I have to change them up or not... I ordered the multi-tool yesterday  ty sir


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> I ordered the bike this way so I wouldn't be tempted to mod it so quickly.. I believe that it will be set until something breaks. The Crank Brothers Stamp 3 are pretty flat and wide... we will see how they feel if I have to change them up or not... I ordered the multi-tool yesterday  ty sir


I've got the Crank brothers Stamp 3's, and love them. I'm sure you'll be happy with them. They have a 5 year warranty, which is somewhat unheard of for pedals, so if anything goes wrong, you should be taken care of. I also got them because they were flat, and large. Meaning, some of the other popular platform pedals actually have a slight convex shape. I pedal with the ball of my foot, so I wanted something flat, or concave.

Oh, and other things to think about buying.

Shock pump (you may be able to borrow one though), and knee pads. The shock pump you'll likely just need at first, as you basically have to set the spring pressure for your weight. So you'll either need one, or need to see if you could borrow one from a friend, or at a shop or something.

And as for pads, I'd consider something like the Leatt Airflex Pros. They're super light and breathable (should help some with the heat), and seem ideal for pedally rides like I'd expect you'll have in florida.

But man, having to wait until LATE july from now? Yikes. I'd have a hard time waiting half the summer for a bike I was stoked for. Hopefully it comes asap.

So now you can spend the rest of the time you have researching helmets, bike racks, deciding to go tubeless or not, etc.

Good luck .


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Sweet, nice to get some feedback on those pedals. The shock pumps aren't expensive, I could either get one off of amazon or just go to a shop... we will see. Thanks once again for the insight Logan. 

The waiting is not a problem, I am stoked to get on this thing and hit the trails but if it comes within that time it'll be close to my birthday so it's cool. Heh... I'm rather patient and as you said this will give me some time to research other things.

I've already decided to go tubeless and been looking into helmets, tools I may not have as for the racks, I managed to see a Subaru this morning with a thule hitch 2 bike tray without the bikes on lifted up and it looks slim enough... I did see online both Thule's and Yakima hitch setups and both have similarities... since the bike is CF they have some that it straps on the wheels and the holder goes over the front or rear wheel and holds it in place with a wire-like lock. My main worry is the locking of the back and theft, here in Miami they will steal these bikes and I plan on going trailing every now and then after work... I don't want them snagging the wheels because the straps don't have locks on them... or disconnecting the hitch adapter and taking the whole thing.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> My main worry is the locking of the back and theft, here in Miami they will steal these bikes and I plan on going trailing every now and then after work... I don't want them snagging the wheels because the straps don't have locks on them... or disconnecting the hitch adapter and taking the whole thing.


That's a significant concern. Basically, no rack is going to offer better security than a cable lock or a chain you add to it, which pretty much only covers the visual deterrent side of things.

But, a number of options exist that include such locks as part of the rack. You can always add more to make it look like a bigger PITA to steal. But you still shouldn't be comfortable leaving it anywhere for very long. Shoot, I met a guy (back when I worked in a shop) who told me that bike thieves followed him to a McD's and used a battery powered reciprocating saw to cut the bike rack off the car in abt 30sec and lift the rack plus 2 bikes into their van and drive off while he and his buddies stood inside and watched. That's how professional thieves operate and no lock will stop them. The only thing that works against that sort of thing is behavioral on your side...basically never leaving the bike(s) unattended. What would have prevented the theft in that instance would have been a lookout who stayed with the bikes.

Fortunately, most bike thefts are opportunistic, where people steal unlocked, unattended bikes. The ones who use tools are the ones that are going to take the bike if they want it.

Rack thefts are less common, but they still happen. Many locking hitch pins can be defeated easily enough. On my wife's subaru, with the hitch receiver hidden inside the bumper cutout, accessing the hitch pin is a PITA and you've gotta crawl under the car. Racks with anti-wobble systems that wedge the rack inside the hitch receiver are probably also helpful rack theft deterrents since they make it take longer to remove the rack. For bike thieves, time is their enemy. If it looks like it will take too long, they'll pass.

So, if you want to ride after work, you're going to have to do something with your bike OTHER than leaving it on the rack. Put it inside the vehicle (depending on your vehicle, still a significant risk)? Bring it in with you? Something like that.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

So, pretty much... forget after work trails, or go home pick up the bike then go to the trail or wait for the weekend lol... be by the bike at all times and don't leave it unattented for long periods of time. 

My car is parked in a parking garage and would be susceptible to thievery. I'm not sure putting down the seats through the trunk will have the room needed to put it that way but then again they could just break a window and do it the old fashion way.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> So, pretty much... forget after work trails, or go home pick up the bike then go to the trail or wait for the weekend lol... be by the bike at all times and don't leave it unattented for long periods of time.
> 
> My car is parked in a parking garage and would be susceptible to thievery. I'm not sure putting down the seats through the trunk will have the room needed to put it that way but then again they could just break a window and do it the old fashion way.


You can't bring it inside work and keep it somewhere reasonably secure? I know not all workplaces offer this kind of thing.

This is partly why I will only drive a vehicle that allows me to put the bike inside. Right now, it's a hatchback, but I'd like my next vehicle to be a pickup truck with a camper shell. Other people really like vans for this purpose. A sedan can work in a pinch, though. Darker window tints, blankets, and such can help with the out-of-sight-out-of-mind thing.

This is also why a fair number of people who mtb a lot choose where they live based on the location of nearby trails if possible.


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> So, pretty much... forget after work trails, or go home pick up the bike then go to the trail or wait for the weekend lol... be by the bike at all times and *don't leave it unattented* for long periods of time.
> 
> My car is parked in a parking garage and would be susceptible to thievery. I'm not sure putting down the seats through the trunk will have the room needed to put it that way but then again they could just break a window and do it the old fashion way.


First, congratulations on your bike purchase.

Locks, whether for your bike or your bike rack, only serve to slow down a POS thief that is intent on stealing your bike and/or bike rack. I have a pickup with a SnugTop shell, tinted windows. After a ride, enjoying some brews and food with friends, my bike is double-locked inside the bed under blankets. If I do not have a line of site on my truck, I not enjoying my time as well as I could.

A couple years ago, stopped in Santa Barbara for a meal with the wife as we were heading home. Driving a Subaru Forester, bikes double-locked on roof rack. Took a while to find a restaurant with outdoor seating and a view of the vehicle. Two sips of my beer and MF'er, POS walking back and forth staring at the bikes. I get up as my wife is talking to me and walk away. I go into the men's room, grab the plunger I saw 10 minutes prior, walk through the restaurant, past my wife, hop over the patio railing, hearing my wife's voice but not focusing on the words. 10' from the Subaru, POS is leaning on driver's side, back towards me. I walked past him, turned, and introduced plunger to the back of his head.

His face hit the roof and rebounded (see what I did here), forcing the plunger back, which I again swung. This happened three times, picture a ping-pong tournament volley. The forth swing missed, because he was no longer standing up, but slid down the side of the car, like in a cartoon.

Moral of the story: Do not depend on locks to protect your property. Safely secure bikes in a locked room so that you can give your wife or significant other 100% of your attention while they converse with you. Lastly, regardless where you are, situation awareness does not go on vacation when you are on vacation.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

man...I feel lucky to live where I do!

I have the 1UpUSA double Super Duty rack, and it is on the car 24/7. Have had it for 3 years now. I use my U lock through the wheels and the pieces that go over the wheels, and can leave my bike on the rack overnight, or while I am in the store, or at work, and never worry about it getting taken.

of course, now that I mentioned it, my whole car will probably get stolen with the bike on it...


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Harold said:


> You can't bring it inside work and keep it somewhere reasonably secure? I know not all workplaces offer this kind of thing.
> 
> This is partly why I will only drive a vehicle that allows me to put the bike inside. Right now, it's a hatchback, but I'd like my next vehicle to be a pickup truck with a camper shell. Other people really like vans for this purpose. A sedan can work in a pinch, though. Darker window tints, blankets, and such can help with the out-of-sight-out-of-mind thing.
> 
> This is also why a fair number of people who mtb a lot choose where they live based on the location of nearby trails if possible.


Nah, I work for Miami-Dade County, assuming I can get the bike passed the metal detectors they won't allow me to bring it in. They have bike stalls outside but I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving it outside for hostile character and even less through all the elements as well. I have to see if it'll fit in my car with the seats down, ultimately a rack would have to be installed which would have to be on the hitch since the roof won't be good due to clearance of the parking garage. Regardless, I don't plan on taking it to work and then going trailing later. I'll just pick it up at the house after work if I need to do that. Sun sets around 8PM so I have at least 2 hrs of daylight. I'm thinking of getting an SUV for my next vehicle so we will see...



Boulder Pilot said:


> First, congratulations on your bike purchase.
> 
> Locks, whether for your bike or your bike rack, only serve to slow down a POS thief that is intent on stealing your bike and/or bike rack. I have a pickup with a SnugTop shell, tinted windows. After a ride, enjoying some brews and food with friends, my bike is double-locked inside the bed under blankets. If I do not have a line of site on my truck, I not enjoying my time as well as I could.
> 
> ...


Ty 

I hear ya, nice story btw, good job on the KO. My wife would get jealous if I showed that much attention to a bike/car... she hates the fact how much attention I already pay to my car and PC lol... even though she gets everything else...

I'll just use the rack for transport when indeed going to hit the trail and I will still take precaution on double or triple locking things.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I actually have an OnGuard Mastiff chain and lock that I use to secure my bike to my truck. I run the chain through the bike (and rack) and then lock it to my truck frame. I also have a Boomerang bike anti-theft device that lets out a loud audible noise when someone tampers with your bike. It also sends me a text message through cell towers and lets me GPS track my bike. Even the mounting screws are tamper proof (unless someone happens to have a drill). It probably wont stop a pro from jacking my bike but it will deter others who want to mess with it.

Plus I don't leave my bike unattended on my rack for very long. I don't even like to get beers after a group ride because I refuse to leave my bike on the rack. Overkilling it for a quick pit stop is all that I need 

Here is the Boomerang: https://boomerangbike.com/bicycle-anti-theft-gps-products/

They have a custom bracket that lets me lock the Boomerang to the seat post but it's still in production. Hopefully they will release it soon so I can stop installing Boomerang to my frame. I'm getting tired of people asking me if my Transition Scout is an e-bike!


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Battery said:


> I actually have an OnGuard Mastiff chain and lock that I use to secure my bike to my truck. I run the chain through the bike (and rack) and then lock it to my truck frame. I also have a Boomerang bike anti-theft device that lets out a loud audible noise when someone tampers with your bike. It also sends me a text message through cell towers and lets me GPS track my bike. Even the mounting screws are tamper proof (unless someone happens to have a drill). It probably wont stop a pro from jacking my bike but it will deter others who want to mess with it.
> 
> Plus I don't leave my bike unattended on my rack for very long. I don't even like to get beers after a group ride because I refuse to leave my bike on the rack. Overkilling it for a quick pit stop is all that I need
> 
> ...


LoL... luckily my DV9 has two water bottle mounts, one on the seat post tube and at the regular spot. It looks sleek and simple. I will consider it since it's affordable.. I will have to see what sort of rack I will ultimately get. I'm considering a single for now, I'm not sure if the wife is going to ride with me or not.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

...btw, can a chain guide be added to the crank? I don't see any possible way to add one on the frame.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> ...btw, can a chain guide be added to the crank? I don't see any possible way to add one on the frame.


Since it uses a threaded bb, you can replace a bb spacer with an iscg-05 adapter and an iscg-05 guide (or buy one that attaches this way natively). You prob won't need a guide but i bet a taco style bash guard will be useful

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

The only reason I would like one is due to when I was young I had an encounter with a chain coming off and tangling up with the rear wheel... almost died... fell right in front of a duly truck


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> The only reason I would like one is due to when I was young I had an encounter with a chain coming off and tangling up with the rear wheel... almost died... fell right in front of a duly truck


Previously I was on a 3x10 bike, and had a chain drop maybe once every ride or two. Some that would fix themselves if I shifted while pedaling, but other times I'd have to stop and get off and fix it. And once a few years back, had the chain get caught between the cassette and the dropout, which immediately locked the rear wheel, causing a "fear of death" moment like you describe.

The upside?

For what its worth, I've not had a single chain drop since I went to a 1x drivetrain with a clutched rear deraileur.

That, and then the fact that we don't have dually pickup trucks on most mountain biking trails, so you're not super likely to get run over by one of those .

You can grab a chain guide if you want, but I wouldn't bother with it personally. At this point you really only see them on DH, and some enduro bikes, both of which are subjected to a lot more bouncing around than your bike is likely to see.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

That being an upside, I'm sure no dually trucks will be passing through trails... even though superman is cool and all, I don't like flying like him off my bike onto the floor or smacked on a tree/rock. I don't even remember the sort of bike I was on and what drivetrain I had. most likely it was a 2x/3x to lose the chain like that. Which is why I went with a 1x to avoid that. The Orbea Laufey had a crank chain guide already installed which had my eye massively lol...


But that wasn't a huge focal point being that I couldn't ride one locally...


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## Rolltide386 (Jan 19, 2019)

I ride my bike everyday after work. My bike stays in my suv locked up. Just remove the fron tire and put it in there. Keeps it out of the elements and more secure.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Rolltide386 said:


> I ride my bike everyday after work. My bike stays in my suv locked up. Just remove the fron tire and put it in there. Keeps it out of the elements and more secure.


I'd need to invest in a tarp when/if I do this... if someone wants to they'll just break the glass and haul ass out of the parking garage.


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## Rolltide386 (Jan 19, 2019)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> I'd need to invest in a tarp when/if I do this... if someone wants to they'll just break the glass and haul ass out of the parking garage.


I doubt you could fit a mountain bike out of the back window of most suvs I know mine wouldn't come close to coming out of mine unless they removed the front windshield, folded down the seats and pulled it out the front which I find highly unlikely


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Well, I would have to remove my daughters child seat and put down my rear seats and load the bike without the front wheel through the trunk to the back passenger area. I'm sure it would fit but the issue is creeping eyes... My car already attracts attention so if anyone happens to press themselves on the window they might feel motivated to do something about it.


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## Rolltide386 (Jan 19, 2019)

Just trying to help bud. Good luck


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Rolltide386 said:


> Just trying to help bud. Good luck


I know man, I do appreciate it. I still don't have the bike to run any trial/error for sizing. I would have to see how things fit, I don't have a big car so it might be too tight or it won't fit at all. A hitched tray rack looks more like what I have to go with but we will soon see..

I was reading up on the DV9 on the forums and someone mentioned running a 140mm fork would stress the headtube... now I went with a 130mm (stock it comes either 100/120mm variant...) I'm hoping it doesn't stress too much with the 130mm.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> I was reading up on the DV9 on the forums and someone mentioned running a 140mm fork would stress the headtube... now I went with a 130mm (stock it comes either 100/120mm variant...) I'm hoping it doesn't stress too much with the 130mm.


It depends on a couple factors. For one, how hard you ride it and second, how much of a safety margin the manufacturer (Ibis) builds into it. I'd look into the manufacturer's warranty. It's possible that installing a 130mm fork would void the warranty if the mfr only warrantees 100-120mm forks. I do not know how strict Ibis will be, so it may be worth asking them if you can't find an answer elsewhere.

I just punched in a frame build with the fork you chose, and a little exclamation mark popped up on the build list next to the fork saying that I may have chosen a fork that's incompatible. That tells me it's worth exploring deeper and maybe looking to see if you can change your order. If it's too late for that, you CAN change the travel of your fork down to 120mm after you get it if it voids your warranty.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

I was reading that the fork can be adjusted for shorter travel, I will communicate with Ibis and see what they say... I don't want to over stress the HT.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

So, Chuck at Ibis replied that the frame can only hold up to 120mm. I went ahead and purchased some other things I needed (or will need) like the at home bike tools (I might be missing some specifics from the tools I already have here), a bike stand, maintenance stuff (IE chain cleaner/lube/brushes for the cassette), I got some yeti gloves a scott helmet, 24oz water bottle... the 1 1/4" hitch. On the go tire pump and shock pum and bike torque wrenches


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

I know you all said that it's probably not needed to add in a chain guide I just want to worry the least amount possible on the chain poppin' out. This is the bare frame, doesn't have any holes or bolts to even install the easier ones like MRP AMG...










anything out there that can be used?


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## mellymtb (Aug 1, 2014)

Like Harold said, you can get a adapter that goes on the bottom bracket for bash guard/chain guide


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Buy this (hopefully yours isn't one of the incompatible frames):

https://mrpbike.com/products/iscg-05-adapter

and honestly all I'd buy after that would be this:

https://mrpbike.com/products/xcg

I really don't think you'll need even an AMg. I have one on my hardtail, but it's a rowdier build than you'll be doing with this. At this point, I don't think I even need it. But the bash guard is nonnegotiable, IMO.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

So, gonna learn a little about fork work or pay someone to do it?


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Well, I purchased all the tools needed to work on a bike including the shock pump so yeah. If things to pan out I may have to resort to paying someone but I'm pretty handy as I mentioned before. 

Like I said, I like technical work and learning new things is fun especially when you like what you're doing and the outcome is rewarding.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Harold said:


> Buy this (hopefully yours isn't one of the incompatible frames):
> 
> https://mrpbike.com/products/iscg-05-adapter
> 
> ...


So, I spoke with Chuck over at Ibis and he's not 100% sure that everything will work out. Yet, he doesn't see why it wouldn't be possible to add that adapter. I went ahead and order both MRP's Adapter and the Alloy chain guide + bash guard. Now I know at first I won't be going over board with my riding as I gain experience but as I do I would like to have piece of mind being installed and not having to worry about the possibilities of the BB getting raped as I get better.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I think you are underestimating what it takes to cause chain drops on a modern drivetrain. It will take a LOT of abuse to cause problems.

I can almost guarantee you won't have a problem on things that bike is capable of.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Harold said:


> I think you are underestimating what it takes to cause chain drops on a modern drivetrain. It will take a LOT of abuse to cause problems.
> 
> I can almost guarantee you won't have a problem on things that bike is capable of.
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


This.

I mean, there is a reason you don't see chain guides come stock on bikes anymore. Its just really not an issue.

I get why the OP is doing it (worried about it from previous harrowing life experience), but I haven't dropped a chain once since going to a 1x drivetrain with a narrow wide front chainring, and clutched rear deraileur. And neither has anyone I've ridden with personally.

But I guess peace of mind is worth it.


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> I know man, I do appreciate it. I still don't have the bike to run any trial/error for sizing. I would have to see how things fit, I don't have a big car so it might be too tight or it won't fit at all. A hitched tray rack looks more like what I have to go with but we will soon see..
> 
> I was reading up on the DV9 on the forums and someone mentioned running a 140mm fork would stress the headtube... now I went with a 130mm (stock it comes either 100/120mm variant...) I'm hoping it doesn't stress too much with the 130mm.


First off, it is axle-to-crown measurement that applies force to the frame/headtube. Not the amount of travel. Second, if anything other than a For-Race-Only frame came with a concern that a fork with 10mm-15mm could rip the headtube off, I'd be looking at a different frame.


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## mellymtb (Aug 1, 2014)

I also have never dropped a chain on 1x. Always run a bash guard though!


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

I'm sure with today's technology vs the 90's bikes have improved exponentially... still, I want the benefit of the doubt. If things feel clunky, or it degrades my experience I will be sure to remove it and take the risk (there being none due to modern drivetrains). 

As for the fork, I'm sure those over at Ibis don't want anyone going over "spec" being that they created the bike in that way which it wouldn't need a fork with further travel which is why they stated that to me. I'm sure 10mm travel won't cause any issue and there is another user here who stated that the same people over at Ibis said it was ok to run a 130mm fork.. trial and error... if not it can be adjusted. 

I asked the question after purchase so, my fault.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

She just came in and took her for a little drive (pavement real quick)... rides amazingly smooth... gear transition is a bit rough might need some oil. All-in all happy with my purchase...


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Sorry but the image links don't work.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

It's showing up for me... Hmm, strange. I oosted it from a PC linked from imgur and now I'm viewing it through tapatalk via my phone and I see it.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

They didn't show at first right after you posted them. I nearly posted the same thing, but then saw that the links in your post (when I went to quote you) worked, I figured it would get sorted out.

And to be clear, I see them now on PC .

As for the shifting? That could just a shift cable that has stretched some, or some slight adjustment being a bit off. If you're mechanically inclined, shifting shouldn't be too big of a deal to figure out.

Looks sweet man, hope you get a chance to get out and ride it for "real" soon .


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

ocnLogan said:


> They didn't show at first right after you posted them. I nearly posted the same thing, but then saw that the links in your post (when I went to quote you) worked, I figured it would get sorted out.
> 
> And to be clear, I see them now on PC .
> 
> ...


It was a bit of a learning curve but I figured it out put it together pretty quickly. The hitched rack is on backorder so I'm waiting for that to ride for real lol. I didn't have much time to mess with it once I put things together. I still have to add the BB MRP adapter and the chain guide once they come in so fully messing with it has to wait. Also I didn't set the sag either for the fork bit it feels pretty good on regular roads and running through the nearby park.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Uploaded them as attachments


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Ok, Fixed the Maxle (corrected), adjusted the handle bars upward (way more comfortable to shift and brake while standing and such. Also, lowered the stem 10mm. Will setup the sag next. Also, some goodies from MRP


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Not sure you took the pix for that purpose, but that rear tire looks a mite tight in there, particularly by the seat tube. Which is ok, a lot of people run a narrower and lower-rolling-resistance rear tire. If you change it out, you'll have a spare front tire.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Looks somewhat similar to the one on their site...

...and they run fatter tires... this is probably due to the different width of rim.. mine is 26mm vs their stock 35mm rim...


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Every tire is different. Most are slightly under their stated width, at least until ridden or stretched out by overpressure. And diameter can vary rather substantially.

You have a couple of concerns, flex letting the tire rub on the seat stays/seat tube, and mud/crud rubbing them. Not sure how much clearance between OD and seat tube, and I think there's a protector there, but you might want to make sure mud and rocks aren't going to scrape and gouge the seat tube.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

TwiceHorn said:


> Every tire is different. Most are slightly under their stated width, at least until ridden or stretched out by overpressure. And diameter can vary rather substantially.
> 
> You have a couple of concerns, flex letting the tire rub on the seat stays/seat tube, and mud/crud rubbing them. Not sure how much clearance between OD and seat tube, and I think there's a protector there, but you might want to make sure mud and rocks aren't going to scrape and gouge the seat tube.


It looks pretty similar to factory specs they provide over at Ibis but granted they use a wider rim and .1" fatter tire. I do have Scotch Electrical tape and Lizard skin clear protectors that I can add as a buffer to protect the seat stay. might make the clearance tighters with the electrical tape since it's thicker. I might do what you suggest on a thinner tire on the rear like a 2.35 and using the 2.5 as a spare.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm not saying there IS an issue, there just MIGHT be an issue. Can't quite tell from the photos.

And, like a lot of things bike, you can't really math it out. Since it's a hardtail and has a rigid rear triangle, flex is less likely to be an issue. If you have a quarter inch or 0.2" all around, you're probably safe.

Whatever the clearance, if it's anywhere near "tight," do be conscious of letting muddy tires "clean themselves" on your frame.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

TwiceHorn said:


> I'm not saying there IS an issue, there just MIGHT be an issue. Can't quite tell from the photos.
> 
> And, like a lot of things bike, you can't really math it out. Since it's a hardtail and has a rigid rear triangle, flex is less likely to be an issue. If you have a quarter inch or 0.2" all around, you're probably safe.
> 
> Whatever the clearance, if it's anywhere near "tight," do be conscious of letting muddy tires "clean themselves" on your frame.


Regardless, I overlooked a spec with the tires vs the wheels. I ended up going 25mm internal with a 2.5" tire which will have more flex and slower engagement (in theory), so, when I am able to hit a trail I will get a feel for it and make the changes.. I do plan on getting either the Ibis S35 or the 938 for the wider Maxxis tires and using these 25mm Stan's for a more gravel/road setup when I'm able to.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

I wish I had this reference chart upon purchase of my bike.


*edit* I'm not sure why linking via codes are not working on this site....


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> I wish I had this reference chart upon purchase of my bike.


image no worky


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Harold said:


> image no worky


Ok, fixed it by attaching the image.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

So, I did some upgrading here and there. Had the money figure I splurge. Anyone has a secret on how to upload properly without having your pictures going out of wack? (Up side down or just wrong orientation)

Had custom stickers done by stikkrd to replace the teals on the bike with red (looks fire red or red/orange unfortunately). Changed out the grips to to Ergon GA3 for more comfort, put in a new stem to Industry 9 for color matching red/40mm, CB Stamp 11 Black/Gold

Got 2 wheelsets now, Stan Baron S1's to properly fill the tires the bike came with and the MK3 Arch's are now wrapped in WTB Venture 700Cx50 gravel tires. Full XX1 Eagle installed with an extra cassette on the other wheelset. Upgraded the rear disc to 180mm Along with Sram Code RSC brakes (I believe the gravel/road set will remain 160mm, having some issues with rubbing with the Sram centerline rotor. If anything the Shimano SM-RT86 rotors works well with the Code brakes.) Swapped out the Chris King headset from blue to red.

Swapped out the WTB saddle for an Ergon Black/Red version, quite comfortable, don't remember the model. 

So, without further a-do...

(Pardon the poor orientation issues... There is no editor for the uploader that I can see.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

:thumbsup:


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Sooooo, how does it ride? How are the trails?


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> Just to clarify, newegg and pcpartpicker (which are more mainstream for PC building sites)


new egg? a few small items, the rest come from individual vendors who supply specific item that cannot be found elsewhere.


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> Car parts are more plug and play


I do everything myself as well, less the head rebuilding, and machine work. Almost nothing was plug n play. Everything required fitting and porting, and balancing, and ive rebuilt my Dremel twice, lol.... Anyone can buy a 10s car, but it takes time to build a 10s car cheaply. Took all me engine building skills, suspension building skills, and countless years of research to build a track weapon, 3100lb car with 624 hp, balanced and blueprinted LS7 with a forged bottom end, callies crank and rods Mahle -3 pistons, ported heads, msd ported intake, k&n cai, Ca smog legal, coil overs, poly bushings on all suspension parts. Rebuilt head lights adding new lens, new leather seat covers since its an 06, new rotors, brakes, and tires. Built and documented the short block measurements. Had a LS tuner do the tuning on a Dyno in Sacramento.


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> So, I did some upgrading here and there.
> So, without further a-do...
> 
> .


Bad ass! great job. Just built my own FS, and I think the world of it, and yours is much nicer looking.


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> . Anyone has a secret on how to upload properly without having your pictures going out of wack? .


Any web pic hosting website, that you would use for any other forum.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

TwiceHorn said:


> Sooooo, how does it ride? How are the trails?


It's a phenomenal ride! Granted, I haven't been able to explore the DV9 fully but it's feedback is what I expected. The rigidity is solid for quick responding time when you need it most (correcting line mistakes on the fly) and after I corrected the wheel to tire sizes it really reacts to input quickly. It can be a bit harsh since I didn't go max size tires but the 2.5F/R are holding their own and the gravel/road setup is silky smooth. There is much to climb or descend here in Miami, FL so it's minimal play with the shifter. The XX1 vs the GX it came with is worlds apart in-terms of responsiveness, even though weight was reduce it's hard to feel the difference there. The shifts are smoother than the GX. Upgraded the Shimano brakes to Sram's Code RSC and after dialing everything in those things really stop and allow you to make late decision while hitting that apex... yet, it's risky for a novice as myself it is confidence inspiring knowing you have reliable tools at your disposal.



Outhouse said:


> new egg? a few small items, the rest come from individual vendors who supply specific item that cannot be found elsewhere.


I was mainly referring to the general where people can have access to more mainstream parts for their builds. Granted I didn't go full custom water cooling but noticed that AIO's do a pretty good job for the price.



Outhouse said:


> Bad ass! great job. Just built my own FS, and I think the world of it, and yours is much nicer looking.


Ty kind sir!



Outhouse said:


> Any web pic hosting website, that you would use for any other forum.


I usually use img with the open/close brackets but people have been complaining they can't see my pics when I do it that way.



Outhouse said:


> I do everything myself as well, less the head rebuilding, and machine work. Almost nothing was plug n play. Everything required fitting and porting, and balancing, and ive rebuilt my Dremel twice, lol.... Anyone can buy a 10s car, but it takes time to build a 10s car cheaply. Took all me engine building skills, suspension building skills, and countless years of research to build a track weapon, 3100lb car with 624 hp, balanced and blueprinted LS7 with a forged bottom end, callies crank and rods Mahle -3 pistons, ported heads, msd ported intake, k&n cai, Ca smog legal, coil overs, poly bushings on all suspension parts. Rebuilt head lights adding new lens, new leather seat covers since its an 06, new rotors, brakes, and tires. Built and documented the short block measurements. Had a LS tuner do the tuning on a Dyno in Sacramento.


That's a sweet vette! Your hard work and labor shows within it's cleanliness. Really sick looking monster foreal!


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

*Update...*

Just a quick update, I haven't really done any other mods to her (not like I can besides maintenance).

I gave her a nice wash after a couple of rides since the drivetrain started feeling a bit crunchy which also gave me the ability to really look into my brakes better, align and clean everything. A lot of the grinding noise has gone down but ultimately it seems the rotors are a little bent (probably from switching out the wheelsets so much they might of banged up on eachother). I ordered the park tools DT-2C and Hayes Brake Pad and Rotor alignment tool to sort things out. I have no room for a truing station in my garage currently, it's just a huge mess in there cause of Christmas and all.

I also changed the lube on the drivetrain from wet to dry (Muc-off C3 Dry) to give it a shot. We will see if the chain will collect less dust and grim from the trails, currently it does feel a bit smooth now.

I'm going to be rolling around on the gravel set now for a bit to increase my endurance... I've been getting winded quickly as of late (super out of shape here) so, I need to build this up and I added some protection to the chainstay with bat grip tape.  my personal touch.


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## Codeman (Jul 8, 2015)

Is it just me or does something seem to be “off” about this whole thread? How does one do so many upgrades and changes in such a minimal amount of time with hardly no real extended time in the saddle? I don’t know...something ain’t right in my opinion.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Codeman said:


> Is it just me or does something seem to be "off" about this whole thread? How does one do so many upgrades and changes in such a minimal amount of time with hardly no real extended time in the saddle? I don't know...something ain't right in my opinion.


I don't understand why something would be off? I like to mod things... Keeps my hands busy. I rode the bike before the mods and I can see and feel the difference in performance, granted I am a novice with limited amounts of riding time still doesn't mean anything is off or strange about the matter.. not sure what you're getting at, though.

I've picked up a lot of stuff from this site and youtube, along with other riders locally and LBS'. I listen and learn, I'm also a quick study so, I tend to like doing things myself if I can. This is a fun hobby, and I do enjoy tinkering with my bikes (more so mine and the loki).

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

Renthal Fatbar Lite Carbon 35 @ 760mm / 30mm rise came in today and had to slap it on. Pardon the messy garage, been meaning to clean it up


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I can see how this thread looks like your new hobby is "building a cool bike" instead of riding. You might be doing both, but most people don't put such a large proportion of their effort into the bike itself. That's fine, but you're an outlier when it comes to upgrading with such frequency. I'd like to see some photos of that bike dirty and hear more about the distances, times, and challenges you have conquered with all that effort. I am sure you have met someone who puts all their effort into the appearance of something (a car, expensive clothing, an athletic look, tools, a big truck, etc) that they don't use. Since we only see your photos of the bike, we can be forgiven for _wondering_ if you at "that guy."


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

mack_turtle said:


> I can see how this thread looks like your new hobby is "building a cool bike" instead of riding. You might be doing both, but most people don't put such a large proportion of their effort into the bike itself. That's fine, but you're an outlier when it comes to upgrading with such frequency. I'd like to see some photos of that bike dirty and hear more about the distances, times, and challenges you have conquered with all that effort.


I hear ya, being new to the sport and an outsider... Currently, I'm not focused on my times and my challenges are of those of a novice at the sport/hobby. When I have gone out I noticed that my fitness level is severely low to run up against the changes of mountain biking which I mentioned that in that muscle/fatigue thread. So, I'm building up my endurance and strength before I try to conquer anything. Florida doesn't get as muddy as one thinks being such a tropical sort of state it's been rather dusty and I already had to wash the bike due to a crunchy drivetrain but I'm sure to the pros/experts of the site that would seem pre-emptive but like I said I am a novice.

I don't have the discipline you all have at logging miles but I'll do better with that... Estimate MTB'ing miles would be around 10miles hence not being able to pass 45min's a run x6 runs not enough experience, you're right. I've done more road/gravel well over 50 miles (still not a lot) but, my wife and kids are the one's slowing me down with house/fatherly duties.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> I hear ya, being new to the sport and an outsider... Currently, I'm not focused on my times and my challenges are of those of a novice at the sport/hobby. When I have gone out I noticed that my fitness level is severely low to run up against the changes of mountain biking which I mentioned that in that muscle/fatigue thread. So, I'm building up my endurance and strength before I try to conquer anything. Florida doesn't get as muddy as one thinks being such a tropical sort of state it's been rather dusty and I already had to wash the bike due to a crunchy drivetrain but I'm sure to the pros/experts of the site that would seem pre-emptive but like I said I am a novice.
> 
> I don't have the discipline you all have at logging miles but I'll do better with that... Estimate MTB'ing miles would be around 10miles hence not being able to pass 45min's a run x6 runs not enough experience, you're right. I've done more road/gravel well over 50 miles (still not a lot) but, my wife and kids are the one's slowing me down with house/fatherly duties.


I have been riding for 40+ years and have never logged a mile, or compared how I ride with others....it is cool to see pics of us all actually doing it but don't feel like you have to "race" or have all of that data to be legit...I do know that I gt out about twice a week on the average...more in the winter than in the summer, and usually have about 2-3 hours of free time to do it. Some days I get more miles in, some I don't.

and thinking about what mack turtle observed, I feel like I am the polar opposite of you in that I have done no upgrades to my OG Krampus, other than a new chain. Just think that is sort of weird...I am probably in the minority in that aspect.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> I have been riding for 40+ years and have never logged a mile, or compared how I ride with others....it is cool to see pics of us all actually doing it but don't feel like you have to "race" or have all of that data to be legit...I do know that I gt out about twice a week on the average...more in the winter than in the summer, and usually have about 2-3 hours of free time to do it. Some days I get more miles in, some I don't.
> 
> and thinking about what mack turtle observed, I feel like I am the polar opposite of you in that I have done no upgrades to my OG Krampus, other than a new chain. Just think that is sort of weird...I am probably in the minority in that aspect.


I'm with you.

I rarely replace anything unless it's blatantly shitty from the get-go or I've worn it out.
30 years of MTB has taught me that most 'upgrades' really aren't all that.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm with you.
> 
> I rarely replace anything unless it's blatantly shitty from the get-go or I've worn it out.
> 30 years of MTB has taught me that most 'upgrades' really aren't all that.


word...

I do keep up on the latest stuff, but my gear-lust is always curbed by my empty wallet. I guess growing up poor taught me to make due with what I have, and use something till it is worn down to the nub. Hell, my Krampus is only the 3rd bike I have ever owned in 50 years...and I still use and ride my BMX from 1988, though I do want a newer one of those so I don't completely trash the old one


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> I hear ya, being new to the sport and an outsider... Currently, I'm not focused on my times and my challenges are of those of a novice at the sport/hobby. When I have gone out I noticed that my fitness level is severely low to run up against the changes of mountain biking which I mentioned that in that muscle/fatigue thread. So, I'm building up my endurance and strength before I try to conquer anything. Florida doesn't get as muddy as one thinks being such a tropical sort of state it's been rather dusty and I already had to wash the bike due to a crunchy drivetrain but I'm sure to the pros/experts of the site that would seem pre-emptive but like I said I am a novice.
> 
> I don't have the discipline you all have at logging miles but I'll do better with that... Estimate MTB'ing miles would be around 10miles hence not being able to pass 45min's a run x6 runs not enough experience, you're right. I've done more road/gravel well over 50 miles (still not a lot) but, my wife and kids are the one's slowing me down with house/fatherly duties.


No worries man .

I'm still relatively new (just over a year) as well. But I've actually had a fair number of the same other hobbies that you have (overclocking/custom PC building in particular), and I know the "type". Some people just like to fiddle with things, and customize/color coordinate/etc. Nothing wrong with that. I've actually got a buddy who does the same thing.

I do track my rides, but not for times, just for heart rate/distance. Occasionally buddies and I will compare stats, but more like "huh, you're faster over there, and I'm faster over here... wonder why". I mostly focus on what trails I can now do that I couldn't previously, or which features I'm working my way up to. That is more important to me than speed.

I guess I'd say I'm kind of in the middle ground in terms of modifying my bike. _Most _of my changes have been due to preferences/fitment issues I've discovered over the last year of riding.

I've added new brakes (from SRAM Level T's, to TRP Quadiems), as well as new grips (DMR Deathgrip thick), longer stem to fit me better (I'm between sizes, and bought the smaller size, so I needed a longer stem), and a front tire with transition knobs (2.6in WTB Vigilante).

I guess technically I also added a new bar, and dropper post, but those were both warranty items. I did install them though.

And last night I noticed my headset was making a tiny grinding noise, pulled it apart and found that there was essentially zero grease in there from the factory. Races still seemed smooth, so I just greased it and threw it back together. Makes me nervous to check the pivot bearings (coming up soon). Then I also have to do my first fork service in a few weeks as well.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

When first started, my thought was, "get the cheapest but most usable bike/part and get on riding"... best bang for the buck, if needed. I'd rarely get bike-specific items and rather more universal items...

after riding and really getting into it, especially with youtube and forums, my mindset started to shift towards, "well... a little bit of an upgrade is okay.. not top of the line.. but a little something-something" 

because while I wish I could be riding, there is only so much time I could go and ride and there is only so much I could ride at any given outing (body fatigue); so the next best thing is to browse the webs, order new stuff, install new stuff, tinker in the garage, adjust something on the bike, adjust it back, adjust it again, adjust it back again... etc


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

ocnLogan said:


> No worries man .
> 
> I'm still relatively new (just over a year) as well. But I've actually had a fair number of the same other hobbies that you have (overclocking/custom PC building in particular), and I know the "type". Some people just like to fiddle with things, and customize/color coordinate/etc. Nothing wrong with that. I've actually got a buddy who does the same thing.
> 
> ...


 One should always tear a new full suspension bike apart first thing.

On all my full sus bikes I have removed the rear triangle and popped the seals on the bearings to find no grease 100%of the time.
These bearings are not mtb specific no matter what they tell you.
These are meant to spin fast and so are only lightly oiled. They do not spin fully around on a mtb it's a different use then intended.
Even my intense with "Enduro max" bearings were dry with zero grease.

After reinstalling the seals you need to torque all the pivots in isolation if possible. Get them tight enough nthat you just start to feel the bearing bind then back it off.

Use loctite. You want the the bolts tight enough there's no play it's stiff but still rotates smoothly.

The loctite will keep the bolts tight not the torque number.

Loctite is your friend and should always be on hand.

Loctite plus grease in the right spots = peas and carrots.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tweeder82o said:


> the next best thing is to browse the webs, order new stuff,


Disagree. Building/maintaining trail is infinitely superior to shopping.


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Disagree. Building/maintaining trail is infinitely superior to shopping.


 I have questions about maintaining trail.

What is acceptable? Trimming branches? Mowing/weedeating?
On one spot after flooding baby heads appeared at the bottom of a steep chute. Very dangerous is it ok to kick them to the side or is this dumbing down the trail?


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> One should always tear a new full suspension bike apart first thing.
> 
> On all my full sus bikes I have removed the rear triangle and popped the seals on the bearings to find no grease 100%of the time.
> These bearings are not mtb specific no matter what they tell you.
> ...


It was my first full suspension bike, so live and learn .

I had checked the top headset bearing when I was adjusting spacers/stem when I bought the bike, and it was greased on top, so perhaps it gave me a false sense of security. As when I checked it the other day, the bottom was nearly devoid of grease.

And, I'm kind of an automotive shade tree mechanic type. So Loctite and I have been friends for years already. And while I haven't done suspension pivot bearing maintenance before, I'm hoping past experience with cup/cone hub bearings/automotive wheel bearings helps make it a manageable experience.

In a different thread, I just got the assembly diagram/torque specs for the pivots on my bike, so thats up before the next ride.

Thanks for the heads up though .


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> I have questions about maintaining trail.
> 
> What is acceptable? Trimming branches? Mowing/weedeating?
> On one spot after flooding baby heads appeared at the bottom of a steep chute. Very dangerous is it ok to kick them to the side or is this dumbing down the trail?


Depends.

Search the site for in depth discussions of this topic.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Kevin Van Deventer said:


> One should always tear a new full suspension bike apart first thing.


Meh. My first FS was in '99, have had 10-12 different FS bikes since, never once felt the need to tear down a new bike to that level, never once realized any consequence.


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## Kevin Van Deventer (Jan 31, 2015)

ocnLogan said:


> It was my first full suspension bike, so live and learn .
> 
> I had checked the top headset bearing when I was adjusting spacers/stem when I bought the bike, and it was greased on top, so perhaps it gave me a false sense of security. As when I checked it the other day, the bottom was nearly devoid of grease.
> 
> ...


 They are cartridge bearings like in skateboard wheels.

I had to learn the hard way opened up the pivot bearings on my intense recluse and 6of 8 bearings were seized with rust. Basically all the seals do is let in water and keep it there. So filling them with grease leaves no room for water.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

For maintenance work, I have to believe there is a "steward" or person(s) or organization charged with maintaining and developing the trail. I'd check with them about what needs to be done at any given time.

Our organization and stewards hold regular "work days" for that purpose, in addition to the day-to-day and week-to-week work.

If there's something that could alternatively be considered either a safety issue or dumbing down the trail, the steward is the person or entity to consult with about which side of the fence that falls on and what to do about it.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

}{yBr!D^ said:


> I hear ya, being new to the sport and an outsider... Currently, I'm not focused on my times and my challenges are of those of a novice at the sport/hobby. When I have gone out I noticed that my fitness level is severely low to run up against the changes of mountain biking which I mentioned that in that muscle/fatigue thread. So, I'm building up my endurance and strength before I try to conquer anything. Florida doesn't get as muddy as one thinks being such a tropical sort of state it's been rather dusty and I already had to wash the bike due to a crunchy drivetrain but I'm sure to the pros/experts of the site that would seem pre-emptive but like I said I am a novice.
> 
> I don't have the discipline you all have at logging miles but I'll do better with that... Estimate MTB'ing miles would be around 10miles hence not being able to pass 45min's a run x6 runs not enough experience, you're right. I've done more road/gravel well over 50 miles (still not a lot) but, my wife and kids are the one's slowing me down with house/fatherly duties.


Also, if you are getting a noticeably gritty drivetrain in six rides, you may want to consider using a dry lube. I ride in Texas and it's dusty/gritty as hell most of the time. Thus, I have found dry lubes to be generally superior to wet lubes.

The downside is that you have to reapply pretty frequently, which for me is about 4 to 8 rides or every couple of weeks. First application is stupid heavy, as is second, then normal after that. And if you ride in wet conditions, and I mean just damp, not doing full-submersion creek crossings, or wash the bike, even lightly, another fairly heavy application is in order.

The beauty of it is that the drivetrain never gets full of greasy mud. And is never gritty. It will just squeak and clank when it needs lube. And wiping it down just gives some grey residue.

Also, don't get hung up on distance. Ride til you're tired or bored. Ride again. Ride some more. Before you know it, you'll be doing 50 miles a month, then 100, and so on.


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## }{yBr!D^ (May 23, 2019)

TwiceHorn said:


> Also, if you are getting a noticeably gritty drivetrain in six rides, you may want to consider using a dry lube. I ride in Texas and it's dusty/gritty as hell most of the time. Thus, I have found dry lubes to be generally superior to wet lubes.
> 
> The downside is that you have to reapply pretty frequently, which for me is about 4 to 8 rides or every couple of weeks. First application is stupid heavy, as is second, then normal after that. And if you ride in wet conditions, and I mean just damp, not doing full-submersion creek crossings, or wash the bike, even lightly, another fairly heavy application is in order.
> 
> ...


I only mentioned the distance because it seems many on the forums are a bit hung up on that. Yet, it does and can be tied down to experience in riding but being able to prolong one's endurance and increase one's fitness is something I would generally like to do for myself. I did switch to dry lube after I washed the bike last month... Muc-off dry lube to be exact. I don't particularly ride when it's raining nor right after it rains so I doubt I will need wet for the time being.


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