# #5 Drop Bar'd/Krampusy/SS Lugged/Dynohub'd/Rocker Dropout'ed replacement for #1



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

It's time to apply what I've learned since frame #1 to frame #5.










Fit #'s are similar, geometry will change up a bit. From my first thoughts about replacing #1 it was going to gain some length in the chainstays, gain some trail, drop the bb, and plan for fender clearance. It just so happens those changes helped when I started thinking about also accommodating huge tires. Not being able to use the same first gen Fargo fork (442a-c, 55mm rake) was one of the bigger changes. I'm still using a Salsa fork, but it's the "Long" 26in Chromoto (445a-c, 41mm rake). Similar lengh but much wider, and shorter rake.

I'm not actually using the the Rabbit Hole rims because I want to be able to reasonably use more standard 2.1 without causing goofy tire profiles. That and at the moment they are not avialable. So I'm going with Velocity Blunt35's  According to Surly the Knard's profile on the 35's are not too much different than on their Rabbit Hole. The Velocity's are also nearly 200g lighter a piece, and easier to set up tubeless.

I've wanted to try out a modern dyno hub for a while too, so this seems like a perfect opportunity. The front wheel will be built up with a Supernova InfinityS and connected to their E3 front and rear lights.

I'll re-use the Paragon Rocker dropouts from the first build. Shown in the full short position on my BikeCad printout. They will be run further out when using the really big tires, with a more normal 29x2.1 they will have plenty of room at the full short position. Also from Paragon are the 73mm BB shell, direct mount FD bracket, and cable guides.

Tubes are a rando assortment from Nova, it's a bit of a odd spec to be compatible with the SS Llewelyn Cresendo (aka slant6) lugs. Some of my geometry for frame #1 was driven by my ability to mangle the non-sloping top tube lugs. Disappointingly these don't have the nice shelf at the top of the seat lug.

As I mentioned in a different thread I'm going to SRAM shifter/levers. They are completely compatible with Sram's MTB derailleurs so I can run clutch'd rear derailleur and a direct mount front with the road shifters.

Hopefully it's ready to go by the time things start to thaw out!


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Krampus$y..

Now there's an adjective that just rolls off the tongue. I'm not sure I would contact Webster's just yet, however.

Looking forward to seeing this Frankenbike!


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

That front geometry should run real good. Its very close to what I use.

Eric


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

A unique bike.

Hope you post lots of build pics. This place has dried up for build reports.


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

Good choice on the Velocity rims. I have P35's on my KM and they are super wide and easy to build. Feel like a great rim so far, nice wide footprint with my 2.25 Continentals on them. Once again I'm staying tuned in G-reg. Also, I'm planning another run up to Pro-Tec to have him do my BMX bike sometime soonish. I'm thinking metallic purple this time….


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

G-reg said:


> The front wheel will be built up with a Supernova InfinityS and connected to their E3 front and rear lights.


I'm building a similar frame and I'm going to be using my E3 on it because most of the other dyno lights just aren't up to rough duty. I went with the Shutter Precision version of the same hub because it costs considerably less and appears to be identical. Kinda hoping they come out with a through axle version sooner rather than later. The Schmidt through axle dyno hub is obnoxiously expensive unless you go to the gray marketers in Germany.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

unterhausen said:


> I'm building a similar frame and I'm going to be using my E3 on it because most of the other dyno lights just aren't up to rough duty. I went with the Shutter Precision version of the same hub because it costs considerably less and appears to be identical. Kinda hoping they come out with a through axle version sooner rather than later. The Schmidt through axle dyno hub is obnoxiously expensive unless you go to the gray marketers in Germany.


Yea, it seems Germany gets all the cool stuff. I like centerlock, and the internets say the Supernova hub is worth the coin over an Alfine. I tought I'd done a fair amount of research, but I've not even heard of Shutter Precision. A thru axle would be nice for things like endurance races. I've geeked out a fair amount on Tour Divide type events, but haven't seen what folks do for batteries.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

To further answer Walt's "Why didn't you use 29in wheels.." question in my 650b build thread.

I've got the big wheels covered!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Progress is being made! Full writeup when I'm actually done. First off, I gave up on the lugs. There was just too many odd angles involved with this frame for them to work. So the lug set is shelved for a different project. 

I still need cs/s's braces, FD mount, and derailleur cable guides. 

Initial cruise around the block was awesome, I'm really impressed with the Shimano CX75 brakes. They feel great even set up half-assed/mock up, and play well with the Ice Tech rotors. They use the same pads as Shimano hydros too.


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## cjellmoney (Oct 28, 2011)

G-reg. I have followed your builds for a while revisiting them upon occasion. I have been a big fan of many of your bikes. I went to NDSU which only enriches my admiration. 

I have a fully lugged Kra***** drop-bar in the jig as we speak. I have a little more aggressive bar height/shorter fork so the lugs are reluctantly yielding to my will and should work. I was a little surprised when i came across this thread but am happy to see it. The bike looks awesome. Thanks for posting. I might have some pics to throw some pics up soon and am patiently awaiting the rest of yours. keep making cool bikes G-reg


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

cjellmoney said:


> ......... I went to NDSU ........


GO SIOUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And a bit of perspective on how silly these wheels are. 29x3 vs. 26x2.1


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

G-reg,
Any problems with chain rub on the knards, it looks like 2x10 setup. I have a similar bike in paint right now. 
cheers
andy walker


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

afwalker said:


> G-reg,
> Any problems with chain rub on the knards, it looks like 2x10 setup. I have a similar bike in paint right now.
> cheers
> andy walker


Yup... 
It's really close in the small chainring big cog. I've still some spacers to move around with the external bb cranks. And will give the Phil Wood / Middleburn crankset from my fat bike a try before declaring defeat.

I'd offset the rear by a few mm were I to build a frame explicitly for the Krampus wheelset. I intended this frame to mainly be used with 29x2ish tires, while making minimum concessions for the goofy tires.

That said I really dig the big tires after just a ride around the block, and should have built this frame specifically for the big wheels.


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## wort (Jan 9, 2013)

G-reg,

That bike is sweet. The big tires look like a blast - they made me say GBOGH out loud. I hope you add some brazeons for racks, or at least have a frame bag made for that thing, because it looks like the perfect bikepacking bike.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

Are you using inline cable adjusters for tension or threaded stops with barrel adjusters? Something small that I'd hate to see you overlook on such a nice bike.


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## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

G-reg, how long are you chainstays on that thing? What length BB did you go with? Would it be possible for you to take a shot at the underside tire/SC/chainring/BB area?

I'm working on a project and it seems like the Krampus tires might work, but I've got some more figuring to do.

Nice job, btw...that thing has got to be a steamroller on the road! B


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Some more blurry cellphone pics:

GT, 
I used these sti mounts from Pacenti. The adjusters that come with the Pacentis are kinda cheesy, so I picked up these from Paragon....and they are gorgeous. Of note they are brazed on a bit asymetrical. The guide at the bb is offset a bit for a clean shot down the drive side chainstay. The adjusters are placed so the cable exits directly without rubbing or bending around the end of the brazeon.










MD, 
I don't know if you can gain anything from this pic. I used a 73mm shell and these are the 9er chainstays from Nova. The stays are @ 460mm run out in the drops. I almost used the Deddicacciaica bendy stays I have lying around, but the bend was in the wrong spot. Getting the stays around the tire with room for chainrings is do-able with a 73mm shell. If you want shifty bits it's the chain-tire clearance that is your limiting factor. Some combination of an 80mm shell / offset rear / 170mm rear hub would be needed to do it cleanly. I just barely get rub with putting all the spacers for the bb on the drive side. I'll lock out the big cog when in Knard mode with gears.


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

That guide setup is nuts! And I love it! Can't wait to see it in person. Are you going to go up and get it coated soon?


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Say...

I'm sort of genetically predisposed toward a disdain for anything destined for pavement (unless it is a Porsche!), but this is a flippin kool koncept. If nothing else - and there is a TON of else going on here - I think you might have won the prize for the largest BB drain hole I've ever seen!

I will be interested to hear how you like the Knards (on dirt, please), and how they play with the Surly-quoted-on-the-limit-35mm rim width. I'm actually considering a set of summer wheels for my Fatties, so...

Beyond all of that, I want to know how it rides, wherever!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Dave, it's going to get some PC eventually. I haven't decided what yet. I was thinking "Perry the Platapus blue - green." That's my little Dude's favorite character at the moment, and I think this bike would get a platypus bizarre combo seal of approval.

TM, the wiring for the rear light will run up through the drain hole. A bit oversized, so that even with some anti-chafing around the wiring water can drain. I'm in the well drained with framesaver camp as far as corrosion prevention. Though most of it's miles will be gravel and commuting, it will see plenty of mtb riding/racing. With some skinny tires for gravel races like The Burleigh County Cup/Almonzo100, maybe a flat bar for the Lutsen 99er and Chequamegon 40, SS with a flat bar for SSUSA. The next frame is my 650b xc race bike, but this one will see most of the riding / training / commuting / oddball races / bar hopping.


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## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

G-reg said:


> MD,
> I don't know if you can gain anything from this pic.


Thanks G-reg. I gained that it can be done!

Perhaps a yellow fork with the blue/green to furhter the Perry theme...no one is cooler than Perry the Platapus. Seriously, Phineas and Ferb is the best!

Good day! B


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Very sweet build man! DirtDrops rule! 
The E3 light tops it off...I really want one.
A true all-rounder!! 
I wish I had gone with the P35 rims, the RH's are ok but tanky overkill.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Meriwether said:


> Very sweet build man! DirtDrops rule!
> The E3 light tops it off...I really want one.
> A true all-rounder!!
> I wish I had gone with the P35 rims, the RH's are ok but tanky overkill.


My commute to work is usually in the dark, yes even as the day's get longer. I turned around at least once every commute looking for the car coming up behind me.... Only to realize it was my own light. It's rated at 800L,and I believek it. The tail light is super bright too, though I wish it had a flash mode. A coworker drove past me on the way in on a foggy night, and he thought the tail light was road flare until he was close enough to see my excessively fluorescent yellow jacket.

A pic of my point and shoot camera kinda playing along, I'll take out the DSLR one of these nights and do a manual setting pic of my battery lights and of the E3.










The other issue with the short fork and huge tires is the tire masks a good hunk of the light. If I aim the light high enough to minimize the shadow, it's lazer beaming any coming traffic.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

The Dude approves of the Knardgo so far










So does Shelby the Boxer










How do you make full length housing/cable/road discs not feel like crap? Lots of Nokon/Jagwire Ripcord/Avid full metal jacket housing/strapping tape.










That rear disc housing is a nice place to hide the wires for the rear light too.



















The rear light runs down the rear brake housing to the bottom of the BB, through the shell and up the bottom of the seatpost clamp. There's another connector in the seat tube/post to allow the post to be removed, a few untrimmed zipties to prevent rattling. Squeaks and rattles drive me nuts, I'll be the first to report any odd vibes. If you are wondering, the grommets are from a rando selection pack of them from Radio Shack.




























The wires from the hub run through the fork drain hole to the crown. I think I'll braze in a worked over stainless h2o mount in place of the drain hole before the fork is powdercoated. My biggest hang up with the dyno set up is how narrow the flange to flange distance is...especially with wide 9er rims. Another gripe is that for how over engineered the whole system is, that hub wiring connection itself is a bit cheezy, and "weather resistant" at best.










After fiddling with the crank/bb spacers, I've just barely clearance for the granny gear. The bottom run of the chain/tire clearance is the limiting factor. My combination of low bb, long cage RD, and 34t big cog have the bottom run of the chain crossing the widest part of the tire an inch or so earlier than the top run. Gearing allowing a mid cage derailleur might buy you a few mm of clearance.










Box 'o' drop bar/gears parts, box 'o' flat bar ss parts. The brake cables are set so that if I pull the drop bar the remaining housing is to length for the flat bar. The OG Avid Ultimates play perfectly with the road pull calipers.










I'm going to ride the piss out of the KnardGo until #6 is ridable, until then it will stay in "R&D" mode.


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Hah, I was wondering about those rubber grommets. I need me some!
That's a great report on the lighting, thanks for that. I'm amazed at the brightness and seeming simplicity of it all. No batteries, I mean...that rules especially in cold climates!
The routing is excellent, great job. With a unicrown I bet feeding the wire through wasn't too tough from the breather hole up? I did some shenanigans for a segmented fat fork I just made.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

KNARDGO DON'T GIVE A F'

I've put 100ish mi on the KnardGo, almost exclusively in terrible weather. Winter just won't go away round these parts. It's been lows of 20f highs of 40f with rain/snow/sleet/icepellets for weeks. So the big wheels have been awesome in enabling riding at all. I've seriously tested out the mud clearance riding through semi thawed plowed corn fields. Logged a bunch of poorly maintained dirt road time. Nothing specifically framebuilding related I suppose, my builds are becoming a bit of a blog/build thread.


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

That routing is pretty nuts! I have always liked continuous cable routing because there are only 2 points of entry for dirt, dust and water. I also noticed on bikes I set up with 2 housing stops that the housing ferrule was able to move in the frame stops so there was a flex in the line. I thought that the continuous housing would have less compression in general. How do you feel about the multiple sections of cable setups? Does it feel better than one piece of decent compressionless housing? Just curious, looks awesome though G-Reg!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

I like the stops and exposed routing for the derailleurs. You'd be hard pressed to create any friction between the teflon guide at the bb and a stainless cable. The runs from the shifter to the down tube are nice and short with no drainage issues. The chainstay stop to RD drains fine too. And when it's time to replace the housing, it's only like 3ft of the stuff. I suppose with today's touchy 10/11spd drivetrains you could have some issues with boss/frame flex causing changes in cable tension. But that's a stretch, and you probably have bigger issues somewhere. 

Now if you were referring to the brake cable, though there's a bunch of segments it's a single unbroken run of Nokon liner inside all of that.


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

G-reg said:


> So does Shelby the Boxer


Somewhere in all those pictures I know there's a bike. But that Boxer is so cool.


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