# How hard to you push your stoker (er, wife?)



## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

Just curious!

In the early stages of this tandem adventure, let it be known that my wife is far less agressive, fit, and skilled than I.

I know I'm coming across as big-headed, but let's be honest, I think many of us either ARE or WERE in that position. I don't jump buildings, but sometimes she thinks I do.

Now I'm not talking about taking a drop or barreling through a rock garden or bushwhacking some overgrown singletrack (not yet). 

No, I'm talking about those small things that make her tense up or scream (a little)... manuevering around a gate post next to a ledge, letting up on the brakes on a downhill with a good run-out, or charging up an impossibly steep climb.

Anne trusts me, maybe to a fault, but she also lets me know when she's not comfortable with something. 

I trust myself, maybe to a fault, but I'm pretty sure when I know her discomfort is unwarranted.

I haven't messed up yet. On the contrary, she's opened her eyes a bit and was at ease -- after the fact -- with some of the things she initially protested.

So I'm just soliciting some stories of guys pushing and/or abusing their stoker's comfort level, and some of the good and bad that's come from it. Please share.


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## Method of Rhythm (Nov 20, 2007)

Try some lubricant. Social lubricant that is. Yes, get your wife a little buzzed before a ride.


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## cmckim (Jul 18, 2007)

*happy stoker = more riding*

I just had a talk with my lovely bride (who is now gluing pictures of bicycles on paper with our 2 year old), she said go gently. You have probably introduced people to mountain biking before - if it goes too far past comfort zone, you can lose them. This is particularly bad if the new rider lives with you. I suggest small challenges with good warning. Also, if you find a good trail to become very familiar with, you can increase her confidence as well as the team coordination. My wife and I had been riding trails together for a few years before geting on a tandem, so I knew exactly what trail elements caused her stress (high edges). We chose to work on other challenges and avoid the really high stress ones until we really had it going smoothly. Now we can take the tandem on most things I would ride alone (and a few I wouldn't).
Of course, each team is diffferent...


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

cmckim said:


> You have probably introduced people to mountain biking before - if it goes too far past comfort zone, you can lose them. I suggest small challenges with good warning ... Now we can take the tandem on most things I would ride alone (and a few I wouldn't).


Yeah, I taught her how to ride a bike when she was 21! (Late bloomer.)

We've ridden tandems three times together, and each time I've pushed her a little (in my mind) on trail sections she may not have otherwise ridden alone.

One is an innocent singletrack roller coaster which she is intimately familiar with, and has never once ridden alone on her single bike. It's fast yet smooth, a perfectly controllable descent, but it's been a huge mental block for her for years. She always comes to a stop at the approach, and has had a couple of false starts heading down, but has always walked it.

We approached this section on the tandem last weekend and of course she protested... but we pedaled up slowly, let the bike roll, and pushed through it without effort.

Both of us are looking at the tandem as a way for her to look at (and ride) any given section of trail differently. So naturally we both expect that she'll be riding outside of her comfort zone at various points.


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## cmckim (Jul 18, 2007)

*confidence*

It sounds like the two of you have it working fairly well. Just keep the communication open and she will be going down and up trails she wouldn't have believed. My wife is a good rider but more conservative than I am. She found that after riding more technical and steep rails on the tandem, she felt more confident on her single as well (Hooray). All this tandem talk really makes me desperate to hit some trails -time to call the baby sitter!


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## rbtcha (Nov 17, 2007)

Hey Man Sounds like thing are actually going Very Well. Keep riding this winter and plan a trip to Moab, Ut with the Tandem. The Slickrock Trail is indescribable on a tandem. and there are so many varied lines that will help her not only on the Tandem but also on her bike. Just keep pushing a little more each ride and make sure the stoker is happy.


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

rbtcha said:


> Sounds like thing are actually going Very Well...Just keep pushing a little more each ride and make sure the stoker is happy.


How do I know if she's happy? I can't see her! Do you use one of those stick-on rear view mirrors commuters stick on their helmets, and glance back for a smile inbetween screams? Or should I afix an "I'm not happy" buzzer to her handlebar?

But seriously...

I agree, I think we're doing ok for this early stage. But in the back of my mind, "_when a girl says NO!, she means it..._" creeps into my head, and I know that most of the time I can push, but sooner or later I'll cross the line. For sure!

Ah, well... the winter rains have finally arrived, but we've got some wet weather trails to keep us busy.


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## cmckim (Jul 18, 2007)

*Captain control device*



Speedub.Nate said:


> How do I know if she's happy? I can't see her! Do you use one of those stick-on rear view mirrors commuters stick on their helmets, and glance back for a smile inbetween screams? Or should I afix an "I'm not happy" buzzer to her handlebar?
> QUOTE]
> 
> A while back, someone on Double Forte suggested making the Captain use a saddle with a "cut out" and giving the Stoker a short stick to poke through there when she/he is upset.. Given such a set up, I'm sure you would learn in no time at all.


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## Objectionable Material (Sep 29, 2004)

Sorry in advance for the length of this post. It might help with a little insight. 

I worked for years in a shop that sold a lot of Tandems. I was taught a way to test ride tandems to insure that cuples did well on their tandem rides. It went something like this. Pardon me for making this sound sexist. It really isn't. This works with stokers and captains of either gender.

First take the wife or girlfriend out for a ride as a stoker. Be careful and considerate and communicate all the time with her. Let her know what you're going to do long before you actually make a turn. Let her look around ane enjoy the view, the flowers, the birds and nature. Make the ride as pleasant as possible. 

When you get back to the shop, she will have had a thoroughly pleasant ride and will be happy to go out again. 

Now it is time for the perspective captain. Put him on the back of the tandem and head out for your test ride. On this ride you do everything a captain shouldn't. Make sudden turns without warning. Go way too fast into turns without warning. Stop suddenly. GEt too close to parked cars or curbs. Ride like a maniac. Do everything you can to scare the crap out of him. If he complains, ignore him. 

When you get back to the shop, he'll have a small taste of what it is like to ride with a crappy captain. 

Then send the two of them out together. 

This practice didn't always work, but by using it, I found that I sold more tandems than anyone else in the shop. The vast majority of captains that I talked to when they came back for service or a second bike commented that they were greatful for the test ride that I took them on. 

Tandem bicycles, like tandem sea kayaks, can either be GREAT for your marriage or the beginning of its end. Which depends greatly on the Captain. 

Good luck. 

Pete


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## sparrow (Dec 30, 2003)

Relationship accelerators.


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## Team Fubar Rider (Sep 3, 2003)

*The ultimate marriage counselor...*

Speedub.Nate,

My wife and I have been riding off-road on our tandem for almost 14 years (since we were 22) and there is some great advice from the other users here.

While you definitely have to "push" the limits of yourself and your partner, you also need to take their wishes into consideration. If we haven't been on the tandem for a while, we will go on a ride that is easy, like gravel bike paths or dirt roads, to get used to each other again. For every gnarly, aggro ride we go on, I try to counter it with a nice, scenic ride that isn't technically hard. And, the absolute biggest thing is communication. Don't just "hear" what she is telling you, but listen. She might say she is OK, but the sound of her voice says otherwise. Don't push it. If you piss her off, you'll lose her as a stoker.

The worst thing that ever happened is when my wife and I were riding in Ute Valley Park here in Colorado Springs, we were heading into this rooty section too hot. The front chainring hit a root, folding it over and sending me sailing. She went down with the ship, getting her shin pinned between the bike and a big chunk of "slickrock" type rock. After the dust settled, I was thinking we would be selling the tandem. Instead, she asked how the hell I was going to fix it so we could finish the ride! A Cool-Tool fix a few minutes later and we were riding again. It was all because I would listen to her when she wasn't comfortable riding something, so the first time I made a mistake, all was forgiven.

The best time? Running into Allison Dunlap at Palmer Park as we are desending a rocky, tech-y section and have her tell us we are amazing on the tandem! (True story...)


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Team Fubar Rider said:


> The best time? Running into Allison Dunlap at Palmer Park as we are desending a rocky, tech-y section and have her tell us we are amazing on the tandem! (True story...)


And you didn't get video or pictures? GEEZ Dude!

One of our Fandango customers ran into Floyd Landis on the trail, and Floyd apparently remarked on how cool it was seeing a tandem ridden well there. Made this guys' whole day. (It would've made my year!)


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## Team Fubar Rider (Sep 3, 2003)

I have actually run into her 5 or 6 times on the trail. I have also helped her find miso when she has shopped at the store I work at. Apollo Anton Ohno also shops here...


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## bsdc (May 1, 2006)

My stoker isn't very powerful on the pedals but she's fearless. We were flying down a hill with a low water crossing and a turn at the bottom. I braked a little as we dropped down and flicked around the corner. We hit so hard, I thought I heard the frame crack. She wasn't phased a bit. She just complained about me hitting the brake.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

I just noticed this forum. How long has the tandem section been up?

My wife "trusts" my judgment to maintain her safety. Since she's 5'1" and I'm 6'3", I can get away with a lot of stuff because she can't see where we are going. I always tell her what to anticipate - bump, rock, drop, shift, stand, pedal...

If she can see over me, she knows we are going down some steep stuff


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

ssmike said:


> I just noticed this forum. How long has the tandem section been up?


Just about one week!



> If she can see over me, she knows we are going down some steep stuff


Hmmm... looking at your photo, you don't suppose the drop bars help?!?


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## slaw (Apr 6, 2004)

For new tandem riders, check out The Proper Method for how to treat your stoker.

Our two tandems are set up for the kids as stokers and we don't take them on anything technical, though I do stray onto singletrack sometimes and they've coped OK.


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

slaw said:


> For new tandem riders, check out The Proper Method for how to treat your stoker.


Yeah, that was one of the first articles I stumbled upon as we began this whole endeavor a few weeks back. Very helpful advice.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

Speedub.Nate said:


> So I'm just soliciting some stories of guys pushing and/or abusing their stoker's comfort level, and some of the good and bad that's come from it. Please share.


When I got married, my wife made me promise "no tandems!". Luckily, that only meant with respect to her, so now that my kids are old enough, they're stoking for me. My 16 year-old daughter is a 3-time finisher of the Laramie Enduro, a 111K off-road race -- which includes real single track. When we first started bashing around off-road, I had a few comments of "I don't know about this" as she peered around my shoulder at the hill ahead of us. But as I told her, I don't like to crash myself so don't worry, and if you find yourself in the air, just aim to land on me -- that's happened once and she did. My ploy has always been to indicate my standard level of caution precludes me from putting them in danger. I've been more concerned about their physical well being with respect to bonking/dehydration/fatigue than anything else.

Tandeming with my kids has been awesome -- I can absolutely thrash myself and they're still right there, yaking away or taking in the scenery. But my daughter can now deliver some serious horsepower. In the first year of the Laramie Enduro, I'd ride up next to someone and say hello and they'd politely nod or grunt, but when they saw my daughter they'd break into a big grin and say something nice. Now that my daughter looks pretty much like an adult, they're less likely to gush. I've threatened to pin a note on her backside that says "She's my daughter, not my trophy wife!".


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

PeT said:


> When I got married, my wife made me promise "no tandems!". Luckily, that only meant with respect to her, so now that my kids are old enough, they're stoking for me.
> 
> ...My ploy has always been to indicate my standard level of caution precludes me from putting them in danger. I've been more concerned about their physical well being with respect to bonking/dehydration/fatigue than anything else.


Wow, PeT, you've got a gorgeous, er... bike! 

Your situation with your wife & kids sounds *exactly* like the guy I bought our bike from: his wife wanted nothing to do with it, so he only used it with his kids (younger than your daughter). Same bike, more or less (no need for me to re-hash that saga in this thread).

Like I started off in my initial post, my wife trusts me implicitly -- but I never quite thought about it in those terms. I don't come back from rides bloodied and banged up with broken equipment, so perhaps that's where her trust rests.

Coming off our last ride, she did comment that we were going a little faster than she was comfortable with, but yet at the same time, she wasn't uncomfortable with the notion that she would feel that way as we're getting out feet wet.

I see from the photo that you're coping just fine without a Speedhub. I'm grumbling about my regression to derailleurs, but it hasn't been too traumatic. I'll cope. For now. Silently. Planning...


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## Team Fubar Rider (Sep 3, 2003)

*Give the stoker position a whirl.*

One of the things I've done and done with friends buying a tandem was take the person captaining the most out and had them ride in the stoker position. If they do it for me, I ride hard off road and do some reckless stuff so they see what it is like. Most of them come away with a way different perspective and they are usually a lot more forgiving to their stoker.

My wife always says the tandem is the ultimate marriage counselor. Not because we are talking about problems, but just talking. For the first year we rode together, I would tell her every little thing that was happening; "bump, turning left, going up, going down, pedal, coast, etc." Eventually, we were able dismiss most of this communication as my wife was able to recognize what we were going to do next based on my body language. During first few rides of the season we need to do communicate this, but after that, we are stylin'!


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## SuperStoker (Dec 26, 2007)

*A Stoker / Wife Joins the Discussion*



Speedub.Nate said:


> Like I started off in my initial post, my wife trusts me implicitly


As the female stoking half of a married tandem team, I've been reading this thread with great interest. We've been riding offroad on our tandem since 1995.

Some pertinent background about me might help male readers see how I compare or do not compare with their wives and girlfriends.

I am not naturally athletic, tolerant of pain, or inclined to submission. In fact, I am as type A as my husband, which made clear communication essential in our early years of tandeming. It's hard for people (male or female) who prefer to be in control of their situations to stoke well without establishing some kind of power balance.

This is why my husband takes our guy friends who captain their tandems out as stokers on ours. They really see how much self-control it takes for a good stoker to not try to steer or look ahead-- a good stoker just has to pedal his or her @$$ off and use the force.

I mentioned that I am not naturally athletic, but this bookworm was shocked and thrilled to discover that she can pedal her @$$ off. I am told that I can deliver some serious power, and am regularly asked to lay off a bit. This makes me feel tough and rad--nothing like my normal literary and cautious self.

Additionally, I will do things on the tandem that I would NEVER do on my single mountain bike. For instance, on my single bike, I detest riding on trails with big rocks, drops, etc. But on the tandem, I like to do these things. Frankly, I know that if we crash, I will lay the blame squarely on my husband's shoulders. Yes, guys, even if I caused the crash--which I have never done in twelve years.

There is a big difference between saying to your husband / captain that you trust him implicitly and really feeling awesome when you are stoking for him.

Great thread!!!


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## Spongebob (Dec 30, 2003)

*2 Stokers, 2 Styles*

I'm usually here reading the other threads on mtbr, and on the BikeForum reading the tandem thread over there, which is more road tandem related  but I saw this and thought I'd add my .02. Seems like the mtn tandem riders have more to write anyway.....
Just got back from an afternoon of road tandeming with my 14 year old daughter and my 53 year old wife. They are WAY different. Their height, reach and leg length are within 1/4'' of each other, but one's super light, and the other, well........how long do I want to live???
My daughter has some disabilities, one being balance. So I thought what better to do than to get a tandem and help her develop more leg strength, balance and confidence. My wife is has ridden a single cruiser I built up around the neighborhood and about 3x with me on some singletrack on a HT, but she never returned. Her fitness level is poor. So what better to get everyone in the mix, get some exercise, and have some family fun, right? 
Got an entry level tandem, juiced it up with some better parts and made it more comfortable for the Stokers.
So I figure, I better take it easy with my daughter. So after a few rides, I find my daughter loves speed and is pretty fearless. She can really push, to the point that I have asked her to take it easy. I communicate upcoming road events and ask her how she's doing.....'I'm fine' is the feedback. Now that the saddle and ST Thudbuster is installed, we're doing some good beginner miles.
My wife, on the other hand, dislikes speed, and especially the close confines to cars and diesel trucks and SUVs. (we live in between 2 major highways, in a town with 5 major malls) While I give her info as to upcoming turns, bumps and the like, I often get feedback myself, mostly to do with speed. But she's coming along. But its the enjoyment part of the ride that hasn't happened yet. I found myself today pushing a lot faster than she wanted, like you Speedub.Nate. I know she wasn't diggin' it. But when I do the same with my daughter, she loves it.
So, it comes down to listening, and being sensitive to the stoker. Have them get confindence, because its a bike for two, and after all, its about you both, not the Captain. As they say, 'if the stoker ain't happy, ain't nobody happy'.......:thumbsup:

SB
INDY


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