# Bosch, Brose or Shimano, what would you buy for 2020?



## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Brose has 90nm assist, 700wh battery, and reliability issues. 
Bosch has 70nm assist, 600wh battery and finally a real sized chain ring.
Bosch and Brose have apparently reduced the internal drag of their motors
Shimano seems to be still used by many manufacturers but has not made any upgrades for a few years and only have 500wh batteries.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

highroad 2 said:


> Brose has 90nm assist, 700wh battery, and reliability issues.
> Bosch has 70nm assist, 600wh battery and finally a real sized chain ring.
> Bosch and Brose have apparently reduced the internal drag of their motors
> Shimano seems to be still used by many manufacturers but has not made any upgrades for a few years and only have 500wh batteries.


Bosch has emtb mode and auto shift detection - gold standard 
Yamaha/Giant has their version of "emtb mode" - works great

I think all these brands will get the job done - small differences

My advice - buy an e-bike at closeout pricing and ride it for a few months. Figure out what you like and don't like about your ride. Then sell it so you can make an informed choice for 2020 models.

Thats what I did last year - I learned that I liked Bosch and wanted more travel and 29er wheels - and that one battery is plenty enough for my needs.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

My focus is reliable so i stay away from Brose and Shimano.


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## ruthabagah (Jun 4, 2018)

Rumors are that, Yamaha is going to invest a lot in ebikes, and that Honda is pondering an entry in the market... By 2022, I see 3 major player in the ebike motor industry: Bosch, Yamaha, and Shimano... Which might be fully owned by Honda by then. My next bike will have a Bosch motor for sure. Reliability, availability of spare parts and integration with the bikes I want to ride.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Then you need a direct drive motor.



33red said:


> My focus is reliable so i stay away from Brose and Shimano.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

I would pick Bosch over Brose for better support


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## dodger (Feb 10, 2004)

highroad 2 said:


> Brose has 90nm assist, 700wh battery, and reliability issues.
> Bosch has 70nm assist, 600wh battery and finally a real sized chain ring.
> Bosch and Brose have apparently reduced the internal drag of their motors
> Shimano seems to be still used by many manufacturers but has not made any upgrades for a few years and only have 500wh batteries.


I've not ridden the latest Bosch but all account are it's quite noisy in a rattling way on DH that would drive me nuts. The Brose (Spec.) sure is enticing but if you logg > 3,000 miles/yr like I do the reliability factor is a big dissuader. The 500WH is a downside of Shimano but the upside is I can carry a spare and get some pretty epic rides I couldn't otherwise.


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

Giant has fitted out their e bikes for at least a few years now with Yamaha motors. My wife has a 2018 Giant Dirt-e Pro I bought her this week , Very nice motor. She loves me so much now:ihih: Yamaha has been making e bike motors overseas for quite awhile now...1993.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

jupiter58 said:


> Giant has fitted out their e bikes for at least a few years now with Yamaha motors. My wife has a 2018 Giant Dirt-e Pro I bought her this week , Very nice motor. She loves me so much now:ihih: Yamaha has been making e bike motors overseas for quite awhile now...1993.


I kind of remember seing a Yamaha Ebike that is sold but not exported. I think they had some 2020, 2019 and i do not know about before these years. I said it for months with all the urban jams and parking problems Ecars are pure dumb. Ebikes will rule soon. It is a natural many going to school or work do not want to sweat too much. With the big numbers prices will go down.


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

I am referring to various brands that use a Yamaha motor, Giant having #1 bikes sales internationally is quite impressive since they do have a good reputation.I totally agree that ebikes are handy for commuting.Yes Yamaha does offer a complete ebike, they do not appear to be very impressive.


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## shreddr (Oct 10, 2009)

Having gotten into MTB on the ground floor (1984) I say Shimano all the way, theIr level of commitment to bicycles and innovation are without peer. The E8000 series is phenomenal, I can't wait to see where this gets in 10 years. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

I like Brose for silence and natural feel. I rode a Giant and it was better than I expected for pedal feel but was not silent (though not too bad).

I have 1000km with no issues, but if the 2020 motors do still have issues, then that is a factor. I would need to know the failure rate to decide.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

I've ridden the Bosch Gen 3 extensively and have about 300 trail miles on Shimano. If the Bosch Gen4 is as good as Gen 3 I would hands down go with that over Shimano. Shimano just doesn't have the great feel of the Bosch eMTB mode. The Shimano E8000 display is way better than anything Bosch has though. 

I want the performance and reliability of the Bosch, the low noise of the Brose, the torque of the Yamaha, and Shimano's display and integration with Garmin electronics. 

Let me know when I can have it all.


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

it sucks that consumer reports does not cover e bike reviews? anything else is rather subjective, kind of like buying a car based on Car and Driver magazine. those guys are slaves to the automobile industry.


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## akaktm (Sep 15, 2008)

Do a favor and buy yourself a bike with a Brose Mag S motor. I've ridden the Bosch Gen 3, Yamaha PWX, Shimano E8000 and a couple of the lesser known. So far, the Brose Mag S has the smoothest and most natural power, highest power level, works over a broad cadence range and the Specialized application for it is quite good. The Shimano is in need of updating. I expect the new Bosch is very good, but would still go with Brose for the characteristics mentioned above.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

33red said:


> I kind of remember seing a Yamaha Ebike that is sold but not exported. I think they had some 2020, 2019 and i do not know about before these years. I said it for months with all the urban jams and parking problems Ecars are pure dumb. Ebikes will rule soon. It is a natural many going to school or work do not want to sweat too much. With the big numbers prices will go down.


Yep, it's called micromobility. Cars are pretty hopeless at it so ebikes and scooters will take over short haul commuting and tripping. Biggest challenge is managing the competition for a safe route...


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

People will fall in love. Large cities will rent them by the hour and for a small amount Ehybrids and Ecity bikes will take the streets. No need for bike lanes just ride like cops 2 wide and in traffic just bypass it. Frustrated car drivers will see the light. Some will buy HT, practical and fun. It is not a 5,000$ niche, it is a tidal wave.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Where does the Rocky Mountain motor/battery fit in this discussion?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

highroad 2 said:


> Where does the Rocky Mountain motor/battery fit in this discussion?


Anything that does not use an industry standard system is a potential headache. Even the companies that use a standard drive system but make their own batteries can be a problem, ask anyone who bought a Focus eMTB right before they pulled out of the US market.

Everyone has different levels of risk aversion, and everyone is different in the way they manage their rides. If you tend to keep your bikes a long time, parts availability could become an issue. Maybe RM will still be around in 20 years, and maybe they will still have batteries and parts for their Powerplay bikes. Maybe not. I'd rather roll the dice with standard Bosch, Shimano or Yamaha.

The RM system is interesting. Rather than driving the BB directly as almost all other pedal assist systems, they simply loop the drive chain around a chain tensioner and the motor gear mounted in front of and above the chainring. Their torque sensing is nothing more than sensing how much slack the tensioner gear is taking out of the stretch of chain between the chainring and the motor gear. The system also requires two idler gears, one on top of, and one underneath the crank. So the chain is engaging four different sprockets in addition to the chainring.

There is a photo here:

https://www.bikes.com/sites/default/files/resources/owners-manual_powerplay_system_en_web.pdf

I'm guessing chain wear is a little worse. The idler gears, tensioner gear and motor gear will wear out eventually since they are very small. On the plus side, you can use any crank and BB you want that has a small enough chainring to fit with their system. It looks like if you couldn't get parts and wanted to ditch the motor, it would be simply a matter of removing it and all of the idler/tensioners and running the chain the normal way. I'm going to go out on a limb and say in 20 years, most of them will be ridden that way.

I've read reviews that liked the way they ride. Maybe you are one of the people who swap bikes every couple of years so the parts availability doesn't matter? YMMV.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Yamaha prototype dual suspension emtb.... Each successive model year brings out more innovation.

Link: https://global.yamaha-motor.com/showroom/event/tokyo-motorshow-2019/exhibitionmodels/ypj-yz/


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> Yamaha prototype dual suspension emtb.... Each successive model year brings out more innovation.
> 
> Link: https://global.yamaha-motor.com/showroom/event/tokyo-motorshow-2019/exhibitionmodels/ypj-yz/


Actually, that is a Horst Link design rear suspension, which is almost 25 years old. The patent used to be owned by Specialized, but it expired a few years ago and now whenever you see a "new" brand of full suspension bike, it almost always has that design. Almost every conceivable suspension design has already been patented, so rather than come up with a new design or paying money to use a different design, it is easier to use the Horst Link. It works pretty darn well.

I love how the page you link lists "Wet Weight" as one of the specs. For those who don't ride motorcycles, "Dry Weight" is the weight of a motorcycle with all of the fluids drained, and "Wet Weight" is the motorcycle with all fluids and "some" amount of gasoline, depending on who is doing the weighing. The numbers are usually fudged. It is funny to see that spec listed for an ebike.

Here is a question for you physics majors: Does an ebike that is fully charged weigh more (have more mass) than one with a dead battery?


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## ruthabagah (Jun 4, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> Here is a question for you physics majors: Does an ebike that is fully charged weigh more (have more mass) than one with a dead battery?


A charge will create extra electrons.... They will add weight, but a marginal amount of it. I am more concern about the rumor that some ebike manufacturer might add turn signals to bikes (swiss law)..... Blinker fluid will add weight to the bikes.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

About RM,,,
i am not a specialist. I read that they use 48 V instead of 36 wich is an advantage and their motor rotation is 3 x slower wich is an advantage.
Each brand 500Wh is probably offering a different range.
With all the KoolAid we have to figure about reliability, range and personal preferences....


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

Interesting Yamaha prototype but it does not seem to be an improvement compared to the 2020 Yamaha electric motor equipped Giant full suspension bikes. Looks a bit long in the tooth.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

To the OP, i would simply go with Giant or Haibike(Yamaha).
I just tried a Giant, lower price, lower amount of visit to the dealer = my kind of bike.


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## cunningstunts (Sep 1, 2011)

no love for Fazua?


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

highroad 2 said:


> Brose has 90nm assist, 700wh battery, and reliability issues.
> Bosch has 70nm assist, 600wh battery and finally a real sized chain ring.
> Bosch and Brose have apparently reduced the internal drag of their motors
> Shimano seems to be still used by many manufacturers but has not made any upgrades for a few years and only have 500wh batteries.


I would try to wait a couple months to see if the mythical Shimano E9000 gets released. Supposedly it will be lighter and offer a 700wh battery. But it's mostly just conjecture at this point. Both the Bosch on my KTM e-Bike and the Shimano E8000 on my Pivot Shuttle have been rock solid. I actually prefer the Shimano "Sport" mode to the Bosch "eMTB" mode, but that's just personal preference.

My big complaint about the Shimano system is that the very limited software. I run different wheelsets (27.5 plus and 29er) and multiple types and sizes tires throughout the year, and with the Shimano system I have to take the bike to a dealer to change the wheel circumference/diameter. That's just ridiculous, inconvenient, and expensive.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

RickBullottaPA said:


> My big complaint about the Shimano system is that the very limited software. I run different wheelsets (27.5 plus and 29er) and multiple types and sizes tires throughout the year, and with the Shimano system I have to take the bike to a dealer to change the wheel circumference/diameter. That's just ridiculous, inconvenient, and expensive.


Are you sure there is no way to change wheel size using the eTube Project phone app? I have the app on my phone, but unfortunately it won't show menus unless I'm connected to the bike.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

honkinunit said:


> Are you sure there is no way to change wheel size using the eTube Project phone app?


99.999% sure. Only with the dealer software or aftermarket hackware like Steps Unlocker.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

RickBullottaPA said:


> 99.999% sure. Only with the dealer software or aftermarket hackware like Steps Unlocker.


I had no idea. That is dumb.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

honkinunit said:


> I had no idea. That is dumb.


Yes it most certainly is. I'm guessing most people don't change wheel sizes that often, but for those of us that do, it's a giant pain in the a$$.


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## cunningstunts (Sep 1, 2011)

how about the Fazua evation? supposed to be the lightest and most mountain bike like motor out there. too new and unproven at this time?


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

*FAZUA Evation*

Yes new and unproven and I hope it succeeds in the field. I love the ability to remove the "motor/battery" so you can ride where motors are not allowed etc.

For example, here is the Fazua powered Look e-gravel that I spotted at the Otter this year. Simply stunning!


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