# Pugsley, Magura, Phil, Middleburn, Larry and Rohloff. The long winding road.



## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Here's the story of the long winding road with my Pugsley. It started when I bought it on ebay two years ago. It had a rough isis bb, heavy cranks and a hot gel saddle that cooked my butt. It also had a funky bar and stem. The bb5's squealed with ear shattering regularity even with new pads and clean rotors, and they barely stop me at times ( no offense to anyone who has them ) Shifting was rough, but it was still a lot of fun to ride.

Then I decided to get serious. I stripped the paint on the frame because I scratched the paint pretty good when I removed the decals ( they were tough to get off ) Then I prepped the frame with frame saver, and finally primer and paint. I didn't like all of the attention I was getting with Purple, and wanting something more subdued. Battleship gray seemed like a good choice. I used a foam applicator with several light coats sanding between coats. My Pugs won't win a paint job award, but the frame has a very good tough finish and that's what I was most concerned with.

Then I decided to replace almost everything on the bike. I got rid of the gel saddle and bought an Selle An-Atomica second skin ( very comfortable saddle ) The brakes had to go and before long Magura Gustav's were on the bike. I bought an XO rear derailleur and twist shifters. Got a Middleburn crankset and a new Shimano cassette. Phil Woods square taper, and Penthouse Flats peddles both seemed like winners. Bought a Thomson stem and Truevativ team Noir carbon bar. Added new grips, and can't forget the Lupine Betty and Cateye computer. A couple of Nitto bottle cages, a rear taillight and a seat pack and the bike was done. The pugs was a joy to ride. The XO shifters made a reassuring loud crack whenever I changed gears, and the derailleur made a reassuring load clunk. The chain did jump off every now and then when changing front rings, but I guess that comes with the territory. I was a happy camper....but then I started reading about Larry and Rohloff.

I ordered Larry ( very good front tire ) then started researching Rohloff. I could afford Larry, but Rohloff was another matter. I had just put on the XO, twist shifters and Middleburn triple with the new cassette. Did I really want to spend about another $2000 more than what I already had in the bike. Heck, I only paid $1250.00 on ebay, and while the components weren't that great I still loved to ride it....and that's what biking is supposed to be all about. Still, after reading the overwhelmingly positive comments throughout the net I decided to take the plunge. A fellow mtbr suggested I contact Neil at Cycle Monkey. I had lots of questions and wasn't shy about asking. I sent Neil quite a few emails ( sorry Neil : ) and he quickly and throughly answered every last one. I felt confident that Neil was the right man, so we put a package together. Large Marge DH . Sapim Strong spokes. Brass nipples. Rohloff 190mm rotor and the other parts. Oh, let's not forget the black hub.

It wasn't more than a week or two afterwards that I had my wheel. In fact it arrived yesterday. It was easy setting it up. The video's on Rohloff's website helped with understanding the manual better. I took my first ride today. Not a long ride, but maybe ten miles in the city. Lots of stopping for red lights and stop signs. Lot's of shifting . This is what I can tell you from my limited experience so far.

WOWWWWWWWW (!) I thought my XO derailleur was superb ( it is for a derailleur ) The Rohloff is in a different class all together. From my ride today I simply can't see how anyone could say they feel like the hub is full of sand, or noisy, or slow. The Rohloff is * much * quieter than my XO drivetrain. I honestly could not hear any noise or feel any grinding. The shifts were super quick, smooth and quiet. I could accelerate much faster than with my XO, and the XO was fast. The Rohloff is in another league. All of the usual superlatives apply. You can switch into any gear while stopped ( great advantage ) The evenly spaced gear ratios are very sweet. Shifts are effortless by just taking pressure off of the peddles for a nanosecond. No grinding. No clunking. No missed shifts. No noise. No grinding feelings in 1-7, and no noise from 7-8 and back. The way some people have spoken a Rohloff might sound like a cement mixer. IMHO nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe I just got a quiet one, but I think mine is average. I can't imagine mine becoming smoother and quieter over time. It's just so smooth and quiet now. This is for me the end of the long winding road. My Pugsley is finished. I'm glad I took the leap and bought a Rohloff. I could have purchased a less expensive IGH, but then I would have always wondered about Rohloff. I don't have to wonder anymore. It was a good decision, and still will be long after the pain of spending the money wears off. If your curious about Rohloff, send Neil an email or give him a call. He'll easy to communicate with, and he'll be happy to answer any questions you may have. If your like me, you'll be glad you did. :thumbsup:


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## space49 (Jan 24, 2010)

Excellent build, with a nice informative writeup and great pics. Thank you.

I plan on doing a similar build (IGH) only with an aluminum 907 vs. the pugs. Reading your post helps validate my fat bike build selection. :thumbsup:


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## moose8 (Oct 4, 2009)

That is one sweet build - I'm always encouraged by seeing the cool stuff other people are coming up with.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm glad you guys appreciate my story. It even gets better ( or worse ) At the midpoint of my ride yesterday I got off my bike to sit down on a concrete wall that runs along our downtown river. I was having a good moment when I looked at the Rohloff and said WTF. The rear tire was half flat  

I whipped out my pump and put some air in, then thought I better head home asap. Hoped on my bike and within a few hundred feet it was almost flat. Although I had a tube repair kit and tools in my pack, this was no time to pull the tire and fix the flat. Too cold, and too many street people milling around, so I hoisted the bike on my shoulder and started walking. I was about five miles from home, and had barely carried my bike a quarter mile when my shoulder started to hurt. I was also walking by a lot of unsavories who were eyeing me for a meal. Then I had a good idea.

I was close to the police station, so I headed there and walked in the door with the Pugs on my shoulder. I explained I have a flat tire with no way to fix and asked if I would leave the bike there until I returned with my truck. I explained I live five miles away, and would be back in about an hour. They said sure, so I was good to go.

I jogged most of the way home. Hopped in my truck out of breath and headed for the police station. Picked up my bike and headed home. When I got home I brought it inside and turned it upside down then pulled the tire. I examined the new Endo inside and out for a nail or something similar but found nothing. I thought I might have a sharp edge on the inside of the new rim, or I didn't put enough tape on, but found nothing. Then I pumped up the tube and found a leak right on a seam. I positioned the tube over the tire but found no corresponding puncture on the tire.

This is what I think happened. I must have pinched the tube when pulling the tire from my old rim a week prior :nono: It was also an old tube, and I had two new ones sitting on the shelf. Why I didn't put a new tube in is beyond me. So I put the new tube in and put the tire back on. I've heard people say how time consuming it can be to change a Rohloff. Not true for me. It's a little more complicated, but it only took minutes to remove, and about ten minutes to put back on. I'm glad that this happened in ways. Now I will never take the Pugs out without a spare tube ( but their heavy ) and I feel confident I can pull the tire and mount it with no problems. 

So, I took my bike back outside after putting in a new tube and put on the headband and gloves with spare tube strapped on. Road the same trip again with no problems. It's a nice day here today, and I think I'll truck the Pugs to a good trail I've ridden before ( 40 miles round trip ) and put some more miles on the Rohloff. I'll post back later if anyone is interested. BTW, I sold all my old bike parts on ebay for over $500.00 and still have the LM with Deore hub to sell, plus the cassette. So the total cash outlay for the Rohloff will be about $1300.


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## Everett37 (Oct 22, 2008)

Slick rig... what size chain ring(s) are you running? I'm in the process of adding a Rohloff hub to one of my bikes, but want to get a 38 or 40 tooth chain ring on before I ride it extensively (have a 33t on currently). From the limited riding I have done, my hub is also quieter than I would have guessed from reading about the noise.


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## chuckb77 (Aug 28, 2009)

That's a really nice bike man, congrats, and good job on the build :thumbsup:


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

suba said:


> ...No grinding. No clunking. No missed shifts. No noise. No grinding feelings in 1-7, and no noise from 7-8 and back. The way some people have spoken a Rohloff might sound like a cement mixer. IMHO nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe I just got a quiet one, but I think mine is average...


Please don't be offended when I say "I hate you!", as I say it only because I wish I had a Rohloff that was that smooth. I've had a Rohloff on my primary mtb for over 4 years (so lots of miles) and "grininding, cement mixer-like, and noisy" aptly describe it when in gears 1-7. However, I can't imagine going back to derailers because despite those noises and sensations it still works better than any derailer setup I've tried. I have experience with only one hub -- new when purchased -- so I don't really know that mine is normal or abnormal, but it would seem sort of run of the mill based upon comments gathered from message boards over the years. I have this nagging suspicion that one or two of the those little gears buried in my hub needed just a bit more polishing prior to assembly to put it in the class your hub occupies...


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Ok guys, I'm back from my 40 mile ride. Piece of cake. What I found out today is that when I went up hills there was a * very * slight whirling sound in the lower gears, but no sound that I could detect through the lowers on level ground. This whirling sound is so slight, it pales in comparison to my XO/cassette with chain slap and noise from the bigger cogs. I stand by my assessment that my Rohloff is as silent as humanly possible to build. The shifter is better quality than I though by reading about it on-line, and it's very quiet. Much more quiet than my XO. I am very satisfied with every aspect of my Rohloff. Maybe Rohloff changed the gears steel composition or heat treating to give a smoother finish. I don't know, but I do know my Rohloff is much quieter than any derailleur I've ever used.

They say one of the great things about SS is you don't have derailleurs to contend with, which really frees up your workload. The same can be said about an IGH. Rohloff is essentially a SS with 14 gears. I can direct my attention to other things which make the ride more enjoyable and safe. I could never see going back to derailleurs for my primary bike, and my Pugs is my primary bike.

I'm glad someone asked about gear ratios, because that is an important thing to get right. Everyone has different needs, but then again we could condense most riders into just a few classification. Thorn says that you will probably spend most of your time in gear 11, so chose that gear inch carefully. Gear 11 is also a 1:1, so it's theoretically the most efficient. From past experience with my XO setup, When riding trails which are flat with gentle rolling hills I like 55 and 60 g.i. Now remember a Pugs or other fat bike is essentially a 29er, so you can't go by Rohloff's gear charts because they are only for 26" wheels. 

According to Sheldon Brown a 36/17 would give me 61 g.i. with gear 11. Perfect. Gear 10 would get me 54. Again perfect.The only issue is 36/17 is a forbidden gear ratio by Rohloff, but I'm not a world class athlete, and I don't power up or down hills. I ride a Pugsley  So I'm very comfortable using a 36/17. This gives me 17-90 g.i. which I think is perfect for a fatbike. I don't know why anyone would need more than 90 g.i. with a fatbike so anything above that ( for me ) would be wasted. I have two chainrings on my Pugs. The outer is a 40. I haven't tried it yet, and probably won't. With the 40t my g.i would be 19/100. I could live with 19, but would never use 100, so I would only have 13 usable gears....get my drift ? Also with the 40t, the 11 gear would be 68 g.i. and out of my comfort range, so 36/17 is the ideal combination for me.

Just a word about Larry. With Larry on the front my bike is more stable cornering, and I can hold a line better in less than ideal conditions. IMO Larry gives an edge in safety and I feel more confident and surefooted. I couldn't see needing another Larry in the back unless I were riding on large rock surfaces like in Moab. Then the extra grip would be welcome. I like the Endo for the rear because it gives a bigger more stable footprint for my conditions. Here's a few pics I took on my ride. Notice the Garmin bag on my top tube. I've got a spare tube in there, and although it adds weight it's cheap insurance to get me up and running again incase of a flat.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

nice story and bike...love my rohloff too. I went 36/16 as a matter of survival.


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## Orkje (May 3, 2006)

An absolutely stunning bike! Way to go!


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Orkje said:


> An absolutely stunning bike! Way to go!


Thank you very much. It feels good to know others appreciate what I've done. You have a good bike. If your serious about IGH, I would go with Rohloff. It's hard to justify the money until it's on your bike, then you will understand. Save up if you have to, or sell something your not using. imho Rohloff is that good.

btw, I'm not sure what tire levers your using, but I've found a set that really works great with my Pugs. They have a 15mm wrench on one end, which is perfect for peddles, and it's the right size for the Rohloff. A quality set of levers no fatbike should be without. I lost my set on a trail not long ago ( they were strapped outside my seatpack ) and I had to buy another pair. I had a hard time finding a set, but luckily I did. Make sure wherever you buy your getting a set.

Good luck with the Pugs, and let us know how things are progressing.


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## alanm (Sep 2, 2009)

PeT said:


> Please don't be offended when I say "I hate you!", as I say it only because I wish I had a Rohloff that was that smooth. I've had a Rohloff on my primary mtb for over 4 years (so lots of miles) and "grininding, cement mixer-like, and noisy" aptly describe it when in gears 1-7. However, I can't imagine going back to derailers because despite those noises and sensations it still works better than any derailer setup I've tried. I have experience with only one hub -- new when purchased -- so I don't really know that mine is normal or abnormal, but it would seem sort of run of the mill based upon comments gathered from message boards over the years. I have this nagging suspicion that one or two of the those little gears buried in my hub needed just a bit more polishing prior to assembly to put it in the class your hub occupies...


PeT, mine used to make a bit of noise and it's about 5 yo, maybe they're better finished now. Have a look at my FYI thread....silence is golden... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Al


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Thanks for sharing, suba. That's a really nice, unique build. Nice write-up, too. I'm very intrigued by IGH, and the Rohloff in particular. But to install one on my one-and-only mtb would be a real leap of faith without riding one first. Hmmmm.....maybe it's time I asked around. Thanks again!


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## intheways (Apr 19, 2004)

Not to bring up and old thread, but that is one amazing pug. I was trying to convince myself that I don't need a Rohloff, but I might need to reconsider:skep:


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## nm13 (Jun 5, 2005)

Hey Suba, How about updating this thread? I know you at least changed the tires and bars you are running. Any more changes? Any more thoughts about the Rohloff?
I just went on an epic ride in the Gila of S. New Mexico. My friend and I ventured out in some very sticky mud and rendered our bikes useless in about 100 yards. They wouldn't roll. I broke a chain and we spent the next 24 hours cleaning and fixing bikes while the road dried. It was awesome.
But it got us thinking about Rohloffs and even belt drive. I'm not going to spend the cash on my Pugsley to retrofit for belt drive but might get a Rohloff wheel built. 
Did you use the Monkeybone from CycleMonkey? Obviously the Surly Tuggnut worked for you. Did you use them on both sides or just drive side? Any perspective on wheel build strength given the caution from Surly? And finally what did the wheel build cost?
Thanks and as I've told you I love your bike. It inspires my Pugs to be better.
Best,
Todd


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Hey Todd

I love NM. Maybe we can get together for one of those epic rides someday  I've made some important changes since this thread started, but the Rohloff remains the core component. I'm not aware of Surlys caution about wheel strength though. A Rohloff hub is very strong even with the offset. I can't tell you how good a Rohloff really is. When you first use one you have to think about shifting. It will seem a little funny and awkward, but wait. Soon there's almost no thought involved. It's like you shift at the perfect moment to whatever gear you want without thinking. All your concentration is on the trail, and on the ride. Then you get fassst. I've pulled away from good riders much younger than myself many times. Most of the time I'm not even trying that hard 

I'd honestly never get a belt. Others might like them, but I'll stay with a chain. Yup, got a speed bone. It works extremely well. Tug nuts on both sides, but you'll need to grind down the left side because it won't fit with the SB. If I remember correctly I paid somewhere between $1800 / $ 2000. That included a new LM laced with Sapim Strong spokes. That's a lot of money, but you'll have it for life. A speed hub will probably outlast a dozen frames. Neil is the man to deal with. He's a true professional. 

My Pugs seems to be an on going project. Besides the Jones bar and Floyd's ( really liking them ) there's the Phil front hub, and of course I tied and soldered my spokes ( at the cross ) Got a Revelate frame bag. Bought a Design Shine taillight ( super good light ) Bought a new fork because the original owner cut the steerer too short. I'm due to get my Black Sheep Ti stem ( 120/15* ) in several week, and really looking forward to that. Then I can get the cockpit finally set up the way I want.

Here's a few pics I just took. Not the greatest, and the scenery isn't much. You're welcome anytime to post some pics of your Pugs here if you like. 

Hope all is well over there...and good luck.


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## nm13 (Jun 5, 2005)

Here's a link to our Gila trip. http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/gila-tour-pics-745074.html
I broke my chain due to the mud which is what got me thinking about belts.
Here's a photo from a previous trip to the Wallow Fire in AZ.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Nice bike (!) The Gila trip looks super. Just to let you know, I'm doubting you would have broken your chain with a Rohloff because it's a straight chain line. I'm guessing you would really load up a belt in mud. Sure it would't break, but like I said I think it would be very unlikely to break a good chain with a Rohloff.

Just my 2c.....and enjoy your Pugs :thumbsup:


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## Patagrande (Jul 26, 2010)

Suba,

Looks like you have been on a super nice journey with the Pugs, nice work!

As I ready myself for a 9 Zero 7 build, I see you had originally picked several components that are on my list. The Thomson stem is one, and I see that you opted to change that, was it because of length, as you seam to have gone another 10mm or 20mm, or was it in an effort to soften the front with the Ti stem?

About the seatpost, I have been leary of trying one of these, the fact that when it compresses changes the relationship between BB and knees scares me a bit, what has been your experience.

Also what do you find yourself doing more, trails or city riding, I noticed the Floyd, and that might be the answer to my question.

PG


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

suba said:


> I'm doubting you would have broken your chain with a Rohloff because it's a straight chain line. I'm guessing you would really load up a belt in mud. Sure it would't break, but like I said I think it would be very unlikely to break a good chain with a Rohloff.


It would be very unlikely to break a chain with any IGH or SS/FG setup...:thumbsup:


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## Corporal Punishment (May 26, 2011)

Patagrande said:


> About the seatpost, I have been leary of trying one of these, the fact that when it compresses changes the relationship between BB and knees scares me a bit, what has been your experience.


I have one. It works very well for small bumps less than 1".

The manufacturer claims that your fear is unfounded. I concur. The saddle moves back and down so that the distance from your ass to the BB never changes. I'm not sure that it never changes, but it does work well enough that I never noticed any change while pedaling.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Thomson makes great stems, but I wanted something a little more exotic. Thought I'd try a longer stem because my Jones bar puts my hands a little further back., and no sense having two stems the same. The new 120*15 will give me a little more reach and height, so I'll be able to reduce some spacers. The front is pretty compliant now especially with my Jones bar. I don't expect the Ti stem to make a difference in that regard. Like I said, I just wanted to have something out of the ordinary.

The thud buster is great. It originally came with the bike. It's the only thing I didn't change because it works. It's sort of heavy, but non worries for me there. I ride probably 50 %trail 50% city/road. Floyd's are a pretty good tire, but I have others, and plan getting a few more.


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