# Conflict with runners group



## ricks_smbc (Feb 28, 2006)

As runners are discovering how much fun running on mtn bike trails are, we are starting to see organized races and events being held or proposed on our trails. I have several issues with that and want to know if others are having the same experience and how they are dealing with it.

Here are my issues:
1) Safety - there is no way to keep bikes off the trails and there is no way to run a safe race with bikes coming down trails racers are going up - New England forest, rooty, rocky, tight twisty single track. 
2) Mtn bikers have access to very little state land, runners can go anywhere. They love our trails because of the flow. Allowing events (I am in the middle of some heated discussions with a 24 hr race scheduled) will only perpetuate and increase the problem. 
3) Once one group is in, then we will see others. We have done such good work, we will get boxed out. 
4) Maintenance - runners have never contributed $$ or time to support the effort. We have over 10 years, 1000' of hours and 10' of thousands of $$ invested.

The particular network that the race is scheduled on has become so popular with mtn bikers, it would be impossible to stop people from riding. The permits do not allow the runners group to keep us off. I am trying to come up with an alternative to move them to a great park a few miles away, but they really love our trails, they want to showcase the best we have to offer. 

Any thoughts or feedback is appreciated.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

although you are understandably protective about trails you invested a lot of time, love, money into building . . . . my advice is chill out and check out all the hot runner women.


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## Surestick Malone (Jan 24, 2004)

Who owns the land the trails are on? I'd imagine the final word is up to them. 

- Arguing that mountain bikers did the trail work so only they should get to use the trails is the same as saying that mountain bikers who didn't do any trail work shouldn't be allowed on the trails. Doing the trail work doesn't mean you own the trails. 

- One race isn't that big an inconvenience, just ride somewhere else that day. 

- Just be happy it's not horses, at least you'll still have trails at the end of the race!

Maybe the local MTB community can use this to their advantage: More money and volunteers for trail building from the trail running community?


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Get them involved. It's tough to do and they're probably not as well organized as the Mountain Biking groups out there. If you can establish a Friends of _______ and try to get them involved in it so they understand how much work and $$ goes into the maintenance and development of the trail system they should appreciate the trails that much more.

I've seen some places that have MTB only trails, and one-way trails, where people pretty much know you're asking for a possible collision if you're not on an MTB or headed the wrong way. How about shared use one-way trails where you're most worried about head to head issues? Or at the very least just for the race day.

Could your organization work with the land manager to isolate a couple trails for MTB only and the others remain shared use, you're putting the time in and have the labor to help them. If the runner's aren't contributing the labor and resources they won't have much pull with the land manager.

There might be some way to use the race to showcase your trails and have your club/org there saying,"if you like these trails, join us even if you're not a rider and you'll be contributing to keeping the trails in pristine condition."


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## Loren_ (Dec 3, 2006)

The group that I volunteer with generally has no problem supporting running and tri events on 'our' trails. Sure, we do most of the work maintaining the trails, and some of these events mean extra cleanup that we gripe about, but we feel that the conflicts are minor and we get much more benefit from having additional, passionate trail system users. In the past, we've helped with course layout, marking, staffing aid stations, and event patrolling. My advice - get involved. My experience is that event planners are delighted to have someone intimately familiar with the trail system helping out.


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## ricks_smbc (Feb 28, 2006)

Surestick Malone said:


> Who owns the land the trails are on? I'd imagine the final word is up to them.
> 
> - Arguing that mountain bikers did the trail work so only they should get to use the trails is the same as saying that mountain bikers who didn't do any trail work shouldn't be allowed on the trails. Doing the trail work doesn't mean you own the trails.
> _______________________________________________________________________
> ...


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## codwater (Jan 20, 2009)

I think you are looking at this all wrong. If they like your trail and they want to use it for races, then you should try and form a symbiotic relationship. We have an adventure race and a trail run at our club's local trail each year sponsored by the city running and tri clubs. As far as the adventure race goes, I am not sure if we get anything out of it other than exposure. The exposure is nice because the race includes mountain biking. It introduces a lot of people to a new trail to ride.

The trail run that is held at our trail is also beneficial. For one, it is held in the hottest part of the summer. Despite our diligent weedeating, spraying, and machete work, the trail requires almost weekly maintenance to keep it pristine at this point of the year. A day or two before the race, the running club comes out and does trail maintenance to make the trail enjoyable for their runner. The weed eat and cut low branches, which frees us up to ride instead of trail work. This year we have spoken to the race sponsor and asked, in return for us letting them us our trail, to have acces to their equipment they use to time racers for our mountain bike events. I don't know if the runners club agreed or not, but either way feel like we benefit. We are also planning on setting up a tent at the races to promote our upcoming events and club. A lot of people who active runner would probably be interested in other outdoor activites, thus boosting your membership. Thos are my thoughts.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Maybe they should split the proceeds of the event with your club (i.e. give you guys X%), or if your club has membership status levels, have them join at a higher "partner" or sponsor type level and your club kicks some cash to them as a regular member. Or try to establish a TM fund with part of the race proceeds, perfectly noble cause as well!

Most of the principles of sustainable, flowy, trails appeal to trail runners as well as bikers so have them help you open other places with their growing size to riding where they can help you help them build better trails...


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## Zoke2 (Nov 16, 2007)

codwater said:


> I think you are looking at this all wrong. If they like your trail and they want to use it for races, then you should try and form a symbiotic relationship. We have an adventure race and a trail run at our club's local trail each year sponsored by the city running and tri clubs. As far as the adventure race goes, I am not sure if we get anything out of it other than exposure. The exposure is nice because the race includes mountain biking. It introduces a lot of people to a new trail to ride.
> 
> The trail run that is held at our trail is also beneficial. For one, it is held in the hottest part of the summer. Despite our diligent weedeating, spraying, and machete work, the trail requires almost weekly maintenance to keep it pristine at this point of the year. A day or two before the race, the running club comes out and does trail maintenance to make the trail enjoyable for their runner. The weed eat and cut low branches, which frees us up to ride instead of trail work. This year we have spoken to the race sponsor and asked, in return for us letting them us our trail, to have acces to their equipment they use to time racers for our mountain bike events. I don't know if the runners club agreed or not, but either way feel like we benefit. We are also planning on setting up a tent at the races to promote our upcoming events and club. A lot of people who active runner would probably be interested in other outdoor activites, thus boosting your membership. Thos are my thoughts.


this is my local trail also and I have no problem with the adventure races being held there, but I and a few others spent half the day after the race picking up gu packets and water bottles, they also cut a shortcut across the trail - no big deal since like codwater said that stuff grows back fast - but while they use the trail I dont find that they return any support to the trail, other than some sprucing up right before their event. I am all for sharing the trail with other groups but I dont think they take the same pride in making and keeping it what it is but that doesnt mean I dont want the events held there.


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## FLMike (Sep 28, 2008)

I ride on trails in which pedestrians are prohibited... 

safety is a big issue.. A collision with a pedestrian, or even a stopped cyclist can cause serious bodily injury or death. due to this.. helmets are required at all times while on the trail...

Make the runners wear helmets... :thumbsup:


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

Hey, it's the biker Vandeman!


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

Some states have a requirement for an event permit on state lands, and some require that all profits from events need to go back to the state... I'd suggest checking that angle out.
We have trail running races at our state park where the trails are primarily singletrack and 90% of the users AND volunteers are mtn bikers. We communicate the event to park users, and often close trails for the short time they are racing. Technically, they have the right of way on the trails anyway as these trails are designated as multi-use singletrack. 
The local trail running group that organizes the races also adopts one of the trails each year. It's all good for everyone.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Yep, sounds to me like if they have permits, you're not going to stop them. The safety of the runners won't be your problem. That will be up to the permit holder.

So, how can you take advantage of this situation?

Ask the runners group for trail maintenance donations. They won't offer donations if you don't ask.
Sneak a couple of signs along the race course, "These trails built and maintained by XXX Bike Club. Please help with your donations"
Have your club volunteer to help with the race and make a conspicuous presence as the "Trail Crew" 

You're going to do better by working with them than by fighting them.


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## LititzDude (Apr 3, 2004)

I would not push the safety issue. Because if you think it's not safe, they will think it's not going to be safe the other 364 days of the year. Don't look for an angle to keep them out, look for what your recommendations would be as far as signage at the trail locations, a clean up time after the event and how many were bikers and how many were runners. Look at how this could draw more users to the system the bikers create/ maintain. This is the main thing land managers look for...how many people come to their property. Anybody can present a problem, valuable people present a solution.


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## Wrench Monkey (Sep 23, 2007)

Just be glad it is runners and not horses.


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## jmitchell13 (Nov 20, 2005)

ricks_smbc said:


> Here are my issues:
> 1) Safety - there is no way to keep bikes off the trails and there is no way to run a safe race with bikes coming down trails racers are going up - New England forest, rooty, rocky, tight twisty single track.
> 2) Mtn bikers have access to very little state land, runners can go anywhere. They love our trails because of the flow. Allowing events (I am in the middle of some heated discussions with a 24 hr race scheduled) will only perpetuate and increase the problem.
> 3) Once one group is in, then we will see others. We have done such good work, we will get boxed out.
> 4) Maintenance - runners have never contributed $$ or time to support the effort. We have over 10 years, 1000' of hours and 10' of thousands of $$ invested.


These are the same exact arguments that the hiking groups in NY have used to keep mtb's out of state parks. Recently they have been more receptive, but these still keep coming up.

As others have suggested, you need to work with them and embrace their use of your trails. Sure they haven't contributed so far, but you now have a new user group in which to recruit help from. Take a look at Pine Hill Park in Rutland, VT. Their user groups are many and they get TM support from the whole community, not just mtb's.

Sure it will take time to develop the support from the trail runners but I'm sure it also took time to do the same with the mtb community, you just have a head start over the trail runners.

As far as the cleanup, I'd work with the race organizers and have them organize a planned cleanup effort the day after the event. Make sure their cleanup effort addresses your concerns (litter, trail erosion, shortcuts, etc). It should be just as important to them as sprucing up the place prior to the race and will give them an appreciation for how much work is needed after the race.


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## zaneluke (Jun 8, 2010)

Could you merge with the gorup and offer a mountain bike race on the same day? Have the runners go first then the bikers? Closing the trail for the time of the event to all non racers. Or you could have the bikers go first then the runners and have a triple event. Bike,cross country run or a dualathin?


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

How'd the meeting go?


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## codwater (Jan 20, 2009)

Wrench Monkey said:


> Just be glad it is runners and not horses.


True. That is one our big issues, and the trail cleary prohibis horses. Yet, we always seem to find big piles ****, trampled obtacles, and holes punched in hooves.


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## ricks_smbc (Feb 28, 2006)

thefriar said:


> How'd the meeting go?


The meeting went well. After a lot of discussion, we have decided that it is in everyone's best interest to support the event this year. We do have conditions that we believe are reasonable as well as some pro active actions that can be taken to minimize the user conflict.

It is very difficult to convey the entire situation and as I read some of the comments it is clear to me that it is easier to get misunderstood in this context than not. I have no issue with runners on our trails, I do have issues with sanctioned races. In this particular case the state gave a permit, but it doesn't keep the bikes off. I believe that a racer has an expectation that the track is clear and it is theirs. If we cannot keep the bikes off user conflict is inevitable.

One condition that we will request is that they have marshals at key intersections and most importantly at main access points. We will work out 1/2 price ticket at a local ride area so that hopefully people that we cannot communicate with aren't totally pissed and have a viable option. They are aware that if bikers show up, they can't stop them from riding. The network and their course encompasses the entire trail system. They are running a 24 hr race, not a 5 k, done in 45 minutes. Another thing to consider is that there is over 50,000 acres of state forest that we do not have access to, runners do. We are talking about a few hundred acres that we have worked with for over 10 years.

Thanks for the feedback it was helpful to hear from fellow riders that are not emotionally involved.


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## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

ricks_smbc said:


> In this particular case the state gave a permit, but it doesn't keep the bikes off. I believe that a racer has an expectation that the track is clear and it is theirs. If we cannot keep the bikes off user conflict is inevitable.
> 
> One condition that we will request is that they have marshals at key intersections and most importantly at main access points. *We will work out 1/2 price ticket at a local ride area so that hopefully people that we cannot communicate with aren't totally pissed and have a viable option.* They are aware that if bikers show up, they can't stop them from riding. The network and their course encompasses the entire trail system. They are running a 24 hr race, not a 5 k, done in 45 minutes. Another thing to consider is that there is over 50,000 acres of state forest that we do not have access to, runners do. We are talking about a few hundred acres that we have worked with for over 10 years.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback it was helpful to hear from fellow riders that are not emotionally involved.


Uugh, a 24 hr on one of the few local places. It'll be best to advertise that 1/2 price at the other place heavily, and make sure people at the local bike shops, local trails, message boards, etc all know about the trail runners ahead of time. The better the advance warning, the less people will kvetch and moan later.

Good luck,

JmZ


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## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

> Another thing to consider is that there is over 50,000 acres of state forest that we do not have access to, runners do. We are talking about a few hundred acres that we have worked with for over 10 years.


I like it when runners avoid the hiking trails to use mtb trails for events. Its great when advocating for more mtb trails. To be able to point out how much hikers and runner like using your trails. I have sat in meeting where hikers were on our side for building new trails.


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

Exactly - Runners like the same type of trail mountain bikers like, and they actually move on the trails at about the same average speed.
Your best bet, as you've done, is to figure out how to get them involved and help advocate for you (and raise money for the trails!).
How about the runners try to help you get access to the 50,000 acres?


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## BigJay (Aug 15, 2004)

ricks_smbc said:


> The meeting went well. After a lot of discussion, we have decided that it is in everyone's best interest to support the event this year. We do have conditions that we believe are reasonable as well as some pro active actions that can be taken to minimize the user conflict.


Hey Rick!

Too bad i didn't read this before... I'm in the same position as you as far as racing goes... My main concern is that the community spent so much time building these "mountain bike trails" on state land, what's the plan for the organisers to put the trail back in shape after this event? Do they have money set aside to help re-construct trails that would get damaged from a rainy event?

UltimateXC had issues back when it was the "Jay Challenge" because of racers that would just destroy a perfect singletrack because of rain during the event... Ultimately, they had to move...

I have troubles with "punctual" events that can't be moved... Kinda like last year's festival... You shouldn't ride that day... but then again, you scheduled and event and people have come down and paid there dues... But then again, would love to take part in more events like this...

I would really push forward to the organisation that they should set an x amount of money for each mile of trails they use (1000$/mi for exemple). That way, if they trash a trail, the leading club in the area that takes care of this jewel of a trail system would have money to help fix back the trails... And you hope that local runners would help and join your group.

I think the best way to develop a great trail community is to include all trails users in your project / planning stages... You can get way more support for building / maintenance / membership if you include trail runners / hikers in the summer (and then, most of these users will use the trails in winter as well... I'm pretty sure that a lot of BC-XC-skiing is done in that area in the winter...

Anyhow, it's a touchy situation no matter what... I wouldn't want to run into another user going up on those steep ledges and narrow singletrack! That could be very tricky!


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## ricks_smbc (Feb 28, 2006)

fishbum said:


> Exactly - Runners like the same type of trail mountain bikers like, and they actually move on the trails at about the same average speed.
> Your best bet, as you've done, is to figure out how to get them involved and help advocate for you (and raise money for the trails!).
> How about the runners try to help you get access to the 50,000 acres?


________________________________________________________________________

Interestingly enough, that was my proposal for them to help with access to the state forest. We have been working with the state and have the beginning of that already happening. The problem is that there is no organized runners group. It is a guy from Boston who is inviting the world. Hopefully we can pull together enough local runners to make it work.

Our group had conditions of satisfaction and he is reviewing them and hopefully we will all come to terms.


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## scoutcat (Mar 30, 2008)

assassination squads are the answer.


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

Don't trust anything the runners say. All runners lie. Don't ban the runners, just say that if they want to access the trail they have to be on a bike.


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## ricks_smbc (Feb 28, 2006)

BigJay said:


> Hey Rick!
> 
> I have troubles with "punctual" events that can't be moved... Kinda like last year's festival... You shouldn't ride that day... but then again, you scheduled and event and people have come down and paid there dues... But then again, would love to take part in more events like this...
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> ...


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

ricks_smbc said:


> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Interestingly enough, that was my proposal for them to help with access to the state forest. We have been working with the state and have the beginning of that already happening. The problem is that there is no organized runners group. It is a guy from Boston who is inviting the world. Hopefully we can pull together enough local runners to make it work.
> 
> Our group had conditions of satisfaction and he is reviewing them and hopefully we will all come to terms.


Have a flyer/letter of support at the running event for the runners to sign. Clubs=numbers, but if there is no club, go straight for the numbers.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

Many of our very popular trails have both MTB races and trail running races with participation in the hundreds on them with no problem or conflict. The impact on each other seems to be fairly minimal. I've been out riding during some of these races and I just pulll over and cheer for everyone. It's no big deal.

As far as little goes, the promoters of both the MTB series and trail running series are very serious about making sure everyone knows they are expected to not litter and face disqualification if caught. Of course there is always a little litter after a race, people drop stuff. It happens. If anything, the MTBers are worse. The promoters pick up after the race, end of story.


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## BigJay (Aug 15, 2004)

ricks_smbc said:


> Hi Eric, At least with the festival, we are the direct beneficiaries. And I thought we dodged the bullet last year. One year we will get tested, what to do in a wash out? Drink?
> They tried to move the Challenge to our neighborhood and we told him to take a hike. We knew what you guys went through. He offered us the opportunity to sell hamburgers and that would be our compensation. Nice fellow
> Thanks for the feedback, I was trying to keep it on the down low to get unbiased opinions. See you next week?


We host the same kind of festival... and last year, we did get a lot of rain... but again, like you mentionned, when the club organizing the event is the club that takes care (and builts, and raises money for) of the trails, it's a lot easier.

I'll have to miss the festival this year... Ours is this weekend as well... Too bad!


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

My main partner in trail building and our club have gone the play nice with everybody route.

We've had periods where help from non-bikers exceeded help from bikers and I'm even friends with and work with somebody who is the trail manager for our state's Horse Council.

Playing nice and sitting at the table with everybody has helped get more money, more land and at one point a $10,000 grant.

When people who are not riders get possessive or ornery I sweetly point out that I am glad they are enjoying what the bike club started and ask if they'd like to join our keeping it up.

I also understand the possessive part. I've logged up to hundreds of hours of volunteer time some years but I know it's public property and really only get bothered by things that jeopardize what's happening with the big picture.

Good luck.


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## seedubs1 (Jun 18, 2010)

I trail run and mountain bike. Never had a problem doing either on the singletrack around here that both runners and bikers use.

Seems like both groups of people are pretty cool, and understand that we're all just out there to enjoy the trails.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

- Trail runners are the one group I've never had any issues with. They seem to get it.

- Create a single page flyer to be handed out with the racer's packet. On it explain about the trails, and how you need their help to open up more land to trails like what they've just run on. Get them organized into a "Friends of the Trail" group. 

- Bottom line, you're looking at this in a negative, start looking at this in a positive, as you can potentially reach a lot of people here and get them on your side. Start figuring out how to do that.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Share the trails. It's public land so might as well get used to that fact.

I agree though, the promoters need to be responsible for cleanup after, nothing worse than seeing all those gel packets scattered on the trail weeks after a race (bike or running).

Plus, at least it's not horses 

I'll gladly share the trail with hikers & runners, at least they don't leave 2lb piles of doodoo in the middle of the trail.


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## canonshooter (May 10, 2009)

Look at it as an oppurtunity! We hold a 12K at our bike trail every year. Close the trails to bikers on the day of the race. Most races charge X amount of dollars per racer. The trail commission should receive some payment to go towards maintenence. Our foot race generates nice money for trail improvements.


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## NMBPmike (Sep 30, 2005)

*Suggestions*

Rick_SMBC
I think you have allot of valuable information given to you by some. You have also taken the correct step in having a meeting with them to discuss your concerns. I reside in New Jersey were it is the lawsuit capital of the USA, and believe me we have had ouir share of many, Many years of trail bickering to contend with and still do, but we have made great strides in comming together as one trail user group.
Allot of great ideas here... Setup a table and had out volunteer applications to the event participants.. try and work with the race promotor to possibly give points to the runners who show up to do trail work as a sort of Paydirt.. You work X amount of time you get X amount of runner points towards top 5 placement??.
talk with the race promotor to have them setup a trail crew team to lend your folks a hand aftert the race os over to fix/repair any issues, and dont be afraid to ask for donations towards the trail crew to purchase additional trail tools that will be needed...
Another idea would be too see if your local club or area has an NMBP Bike Patrol and mentione to the race promotor you will talk with the Bike Patrol to provide first aid or course marshalls, this shows you are willing to work with the runners club and ask for a donation to the Bike Patrol / Trail crew.
good luck with everything, and remember be Helpfull, be kind, and try to be level headed working with other trail user groups is a loong proess to get to the overall soulation.. Happy trails for everyone!..:thumbsup:

NMBPmike


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Funny enough, I just got an email from a runner in a 100 mile trail run that needs to show 8 hours of TM time. I have a couple projects that are easy to do/low supervision need that I just haven't gotten to and see this as a great opportunity to get them done.


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## NMBPmike (Sep 30, 2005)

thefriar said:


> Funny enough, I just got an email from a runner in a 100 mile trail run that needs to show 8 hours of TM time. I have a couple projects that are easy to do/low supervision need that I just haven't gotten to and see this as a great opportunity to get them done.


See, At some point ill bet he/she will be thanking your trial team for allowing him/her to do TM and rack up the points.. Now if this person can get more people in his group to help out.. you will have agreat trail team to assist... once one gets involved and spreads the trail Karma hopefully others will get the trail bug karma too.. good Luck..:thumbsup:


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## TrailYoda (Feb 23, 2009)

rebel1916 said:


> Hey, it's the biker Vandeman!


Man that's cold....but warn me if you see him carrying a saw on race day.

Okay all kidding aside. As has been pointed out this does not have to be the huge negative that you are worried about and can be turned into a positive. The fact that the promoter is a non-local is a reasonable concern since he is naturally more concerned about the "event" than some of overall long term implications but that is where the state land manager has to hold accountability. Clarity of expectations is important. We have had many running events on our Mt. Bike trails with no overall negatives. One of the things that the land manager needs to clarify is how the course is actually going to be marked. Race signs/arrows and the timely removal after the event should be clarified. (We did have a first time promoter who once who used spray paint on the sides of trees for mile markers and directional arrows.:nono: ) And of course other litter removal of those stupid gu wrappers, etc... (the good news is most distance runners use flasks).

Another thing that we do here that has helped avoid conflict is that we have signs that are put up three weeks prior to the event explaining that there is a race being held on xx/xx/10 day and that users should plan on using an alternate trail. This advanced warning and the discount you are giving on other trail use cost will help avoid people who show up planning to ride their favorite trail on the day of the race and get pissed. Post on your local club forum if you have one 1 mo, 1 week & 1 day before event to remind riders about the race and using the recommended alternate trail(s).

Trail runners are the closest allies in wanting similar type flow and distances on trails so get them involved in your building & maintaining efforts. Even if you only get 10 or 20 who sign-up to help out of 500 race participants they will likely be some of the most fit and dedicated workers you are likely to ever have join your efforts. It has that worked that way for us and I think it can for you too! Good luck.


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## biggearss (May 1, 2006)

Basically the running group has told us that they will not be providing any money to the local trail organization. they are also not going to require any of their runners to perform any trail work saying that they do not have the resources to do work beyond their own network of trails. So depending on the weather and number of runners the we (the local bike club) could be out there cleaning up their mess post race.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Might sound a bit brash, but organize a a ride that is just before their scheduled start time so the racers complain about the location. Intention being that they won't reschedule other races there in the future due to complaints. Need not be confrontational, but its shared use and they don't want to play nice in the sandbox, then no need to play nice back.


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## qbert2000 (Jul 30, 2008)

biggearss said:


> Basically the running group has told us that they will not be providing any money to the local trail organization. they are also not going to require any of their runners to perform any trail work saying that they do not have the resources to do work beyond their own network of trails. So depending on the weather and number of runners the we (the local bike club) could be out there cleaning up their mess post race.


who are they paying to use the trails?

who gave them permission to use the trail for a race?

who owns the land?

if they are just going to use the trails and walk away from their mess, i'd be sure to have some riders out on course during the run then.

if they can't maintain trails outside their own network or contribute financially, they shouldn't use trails outside their own network.


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

And if someone is making money from the event then part of it should definitely be poured back into the resource they are using...


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## jmitchell13 (Nov 20, 2005)

biggearss said:


> Basically the running group has told us that they will not be providing any money to the local trail organization. they are also not going to require any of their runners to perform any trail work saying that they do not have the resources to do work beyond their own network of trails. So depending on the weather and number of runners the we (the local bike club) could be out there cleaning up their mess post race.


That's a bunch of BS. I would contact the land manager and discuss their position on the no-cleanup stance. To say they don't have resources to walk the trails and pick up their litter is out of line and in blatent disregard for the people that maintain the trails.

I suggest you collect all the littler and garbage than deliver it to the person you've been talking with, perhaps in the front seat of his car...:madmax:

Care to inform the rest of us of the name of the runners group you're dealing with, and the date and time of the event? We'll be sure to reciprocate the goodwill back to them.


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## qbert2000 (Jul 30, 2008)

jmitchell13 said:


> That's a bunch of BS. I would contact the land manager and discuss their position on the no-cleanup stance. To say they don't have resources to walk the trails and pick up their litter is out of line and in blatent disregard for the people that maintain the trails.
> 
> I suggest you collect all the littler and garbage than deliver it to the person you've been talking with, perhaps in the front seat of his car...:madmax:
> 
> Care to inform the rest of us of the name of the runners group you're dealing with, and the date and time of the event? We'll be sure to reciprocate the goodwill back to them.


a better spot for the garbage they are refusing to clean up would be scattered over the runners home trails


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## jmitchell13 (Nov 20, 2005)

I think you should contact the land manager and see if they can add a condition in the permit for cleaning up after the event (not major trail maintainance, just picking up) litter left on the trails.

Perhaps you could even convince the LM to revoke the permit if they are still resistant.


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## Whitebike (Apr 18, 2006)

Any chance you can convince them to move the race to Adam's Camp? Use the runners to burn-in the new trail... at least then they would 'contribute' something.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

So I guess I'm wondering what "cleaning up the mess" entails? Are you talking about erosion to trails, shortcuts of switchbacks, braiding, rutting, etc? Are you talking about litter and if so, of what type and where? Out on the trails or in the main venues area? 

We share our trails with the local trail running series and to be frank, they have a lot less impact on the trails than all of our various MTB races. We're fortunate that all the MTB promoters are pretty responsible and really emphasize to the racers stewardship and that things like littering isn't tolerated, etc. None the less, the tires do have more impact than the running shoes do. I don't think you can be objective and say otherwise.

Both groups are fairly tidy at the venue areas and while in some instances in the past they could have done a better job at cleaning course markings up promptly, for the last several years+, both groups have done a pretty good job getting course markers down within 24 hours or less. The MTB promoters also pitch in to help repair MTB damage because, well, the races to damage some trails in some circumstances.

So are you saying that the runners won't clean up their course markers and clean up their start/finish venue? If that's the case, it's pretty beyond the pale and I can't imagine any responsible land management agency or property owner allowing something like that to happen nor any promoter, MTB or runners group just out right saying they won't clean up after themselves. Likewise, if they aren't responsible to fix things like braiding, rutting, widening, etc that's pretty hard to believe that whoever is ultimately responsible for the trails would allow it but like I said, at least in my experience, runners are pretty light on trails.

So anyway the bottom line to me seems it's unreasonable for the runner group to not clean up things like litter and trail markers, but OTOH, if they have little or no impact on the trails themselves, I can understand why they would take the position of "why should we do trail work repair on a public trail system when we haven't caused any problems? Kind of like MTBers being asked to clean up a trail after a horse event, they'd probably be reluctant.


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## mtbikernc69 (Mar 23, 2004)

Pack out what you pack in. In our trail system any promoter that puts on any kind of event is responsible for putting the venue back they way it was prior to the race. That doesn't mean trail wear and tear, just course markers and any and all litter, trash, gel packs, etc. At the trail I'm coordinator with I work closely with the promoters to make sure there aren't any issues with the trail conditions before an event. Then after wards its my responsibility to repair any damage and block any cut throughs. The main cycling promoter in the area works with our club (and he's a member, too) and puts portion per cyclist from the race fees back to the club. (Neal, you rock!) Anyway...hope that helps. I seriously doubt that any land manager would let a promoter in to do an event and not require them to clean up after themselves, unless they've paid a fee to the land manager to pay someone else to do the clean up. 
Just common trail courtesy.


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