# 2018 XC World Cup Thread



## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

Absalon is leaving BMC to create his own team _Absolut Absalon_ and is going to race at least another two years. BMC will provide Fourstroke frames for the team (here).

Julie Bresset is back (here).


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Apparently they are also partnering with an e-bike brand. Weird.


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## wheelzqc (Aug 31, 2016)

Absalon mentions about new Fourstroke in 2018, that he helped develop. Interview | Julien Absalon lance son propre team et se confie - Vojo Magazine
"Oui, c'est notamment le cas de BMC, qui sera fournisseur cadre du team, avec le Fourstroke full suspendu uniquement. De ce côté, je ne voulais pas changer car nous avons fait pas mal de beaux développements ensemble ces dernières années et ils vont porter leurs fruits en 2018. Cela aurait été dommage de ne pas en profiter"


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

....and we've got MVDP looking toward a WC title: Mathieu van der Poel blijft ook in 2018 mountainbiken! - Vojo Magazine


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Subscribed


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Totally freaking subscribed.


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## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

Cink back in business! Hopefully motivated and in even better shape.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Cink is returning to MTB?


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## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

Yes will partner up with Carlos Coloma in PMRAracingteam.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

winters.benjamin said:


> ....and we've got MVDP looking toward a WC title: Mathieu van der Poel blijft ook in 2018 mountainbiken! - Vojo Magazine


Mathieu van der Poel is fun to watch. I really expect him to continue to pressure Nino and others at the front. I'd like to see him race all season. As for USA hopefuls, I think Christopher Blevins has a great shot in UCI World Cup as he continues to grow. Hopefully Blevins has the drive and support to push himself beyond his current Pro XCT level and into a solid UCI Elite.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Go Anton Cooper and Sam Gaze


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## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

Gaze will be cool to see on the short track, some crazy power output.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

plupp said:


> Gaze will be cool to see on the short track, some crazy power output.


MvdP will be cool to see on the short track...his CX racing is excellent training for this. In the 2017 WC XCO season he was always a fast starter but would fade at the end. He's tearing it up in the CX scene right now. Evidently WC MTB XCO racing was also great training for CX racing.


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

I heard somewhere he was planning to win world cup mtb next year... or at least try. He was saying MTB through the olympics, then road.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Stonerider said:


> MvdP will be cool to see on the short track...his CX racing is excellent training for this. In the 2017 WC XCO season he was always a fast starter but would fade at the end. He's tearing it up in the CX scene right now. Evidently WC MTB XCO racing was also great training for CX racing.


It will be interesting to see how his fitness holds up later in the season. Trying to be fast all year or in multiple racing disciplines can be difficult over time.

Next year will be interesting if he does fully commit to MTB racing. I'm sure he'd win at least one if he would fully commit. Maybe more.


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## AztecRider (Oct 31, 2008)

Very interesting developments!

In the mean time Absalon, Pauline and Kate Courtney are off to Mexico to race around the Popo volcano!


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

kevbikemad said:


> It will be interesting to see how his fitness holds up later in the season. Trying to be fast all year or in multiple racing disciplines can be difficult over time.
> 
> Next year will be interesting if he does fully commit to MTB racing. I'm sure he'd win at least one if he would fully commit. Maybe more.


He's only 22 years old so he probably recovers fast and the multiple disciplines give him different mental challenges. Being "fast all year" is mental as well as physical. And maybe he isn't at 100% peak fitness. But he may be able to race at 95% fitness year round, which is still faster than most with the exception of Nino. He'll need to be at 100% peak for a World Cup XC race if he is going to challenge Nino.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

Jolanda Neff will be racing a CX World Cup in Belgium next Sunday.
She rode a CX race in Switzerland a few weeks ago... and won it.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Dan and Bec Henderson are heading to Primaflor-Mondraker also...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

Tagging this!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

You guys been watching the Euro CX races?

MvdP is out of this world right now. I'd bet $5 he takes a WC race this year.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

He’s such a phenom. A joy to watch. I really hope he’s doing it clean. I often wonder about his dad, the known doper. Is he a good example? As in “don’t do what I did son” or...


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

I'll put another $5 on the table. 

I heard comments from his coach who claimed he's not improved more than a few percent over last year, but because Wout is struggling it looks more drastic. 

And I'm with PlanB. I wish there was a way to definitively know whether someone was cheating or not. Just watched Icarus last week and it didn't do good for my skepticism.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

At that level, a few percent is drastic!


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

PlanB said:


> He's such a phenom. A joy to watch. I really hope he's doing it clean. I often wonder about his dad, the known doper. Is he a good example? As in "don't do what I did son" or...


To my understanding, MvdP had knee surgeries in 2015 and 2016 with the last surgery at the end of the summer of 2016 which caused him to miss the start of that CX season. He has now had a full year where he's been injury free so it makes sense that he would improve. Also, he's only 22. Most male cyclists don't max out their physical strength until age 27 to 30. So the scary thing is, he should keep getting stronger if motivated and healthy for at least 5 more years.


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## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

Flückinger brothers teaming up under Näf, but still no bike sponsor for the old Radon team. 

Great to see the brothers together anyway, they have an aggressive riding style that is fun to watch.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

Some movements in the Ghost Factory Team: Sina Frei and Barbara Benko join the team, while Lisi Osl leaves it, and Alexandra Engen ends her career :cryin:.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

MvdP announced that MTB is going to be his first priority until the 2020 Olympic games, taking part in all the world cups and the world championships. He will be riding on a Canyon bike this season (link in french).


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

The perfect season of NS in video.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

Speaking of Alexandra Engen, we have several examples during the last seasons of girls who got broken after rising to the very top (Engen, Rissveds, Bresset, PFP).

Does our favorite sport has a problem in that regard? What do you think?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Add Lisi Osl and Tanja Zakelj to that list. Blow people out of the water for one season, rarely hear from them again.

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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

bananajoe said:


> MvdP announced that MTB is going to be his first priority until the 2020 Olympic games, taking part in all the world cups and the world championships. He will be riding on a Canyon bike this season (link in french).


Awesome news. Hope he can handle all that racing.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

bananajoe said:


> MvdP announced that MTB is going to be his first priority until the 2020 Olympic games, taking part in all the world cups and the world championships. He will be riding on a Canyon bike this season (link in french).


Exciting news! He is absolutely crushing CX right now.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

bananajoe said:


> Speaking of Alexandra Engen, we have several examples during the last seasons of girls who got broken after rising to the very top (Engen, Rissveds, Bresset, PFP).
> 
> Does our favorite sport has a problem in that regard? What do you think?


A couple of them sure burnt themselves out by racing Road and CX as well. The women who really only race XCO are far more consistent season after season over the long term/career.

I am always suspicious of the 1 year wonders, both men and women.


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## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

For Rissveds it was the things outside of racing and training. A lot of fight with the Swedish federation and some trouble in her personal life. Combine that with winning olympic gold and all the attention added.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

plupp said:


> For Rissveds it was the things outside of racing and training. A lot of fight with the Swedish federation and some trouble in her personal life. Combine that with winning olympic gold and all the attention added.


I believe she had two close family members pass away.

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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

PFP took the world title in CX and MTB in 2015 along with the national title in road, all in one year. Then she suffered an injury that slowed her return.

That much work is going to push the body to the limits. It's possible she pushed to hard. But even if that is all she ever accomplishes, that's still incredible.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

Sidewalk said:


> PFP took the world title in CX and MTB in 2015 along with the national title in road, all in one year. Then she suffered an injury that slowed her return.
> 
> That much work is going to push the body to the limits. It's possible she pushed to hard. But even if that is all she ever accomplishes, that's still incredible.


She has been doing well in CX too, I expect her to be strong this year.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

spsoon said:


> She has been doing well in CX too, I expect her to be strong this year.


I believe PFP has her "mojo" back. She seems to be enjoying racing some CX this year.

Marianne Vos on the other hand, hasn't seemed like her old self and has been fading at the end of her CX races this year.


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## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

Le Duke said:


> I believe she had two close family members pass away.


Yes that is correct, but the route to Rio with all the problem with the Swedish cycling federation and even after that combined with all the rest caused a lot of problems. Think the two family members was just to fast forward.

But again, think this is a problem for most of the young woman's, they are able to train hard during teens and in the beginning, then they have some trouble in the early twenties.

For me, the XCO for Womens are 10x times more fun to watch than Nino vs nobody/Absalon.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

plupp said:


> For me, the XCO for Womens are 10x times more fun to watch than Nino vs nobody/Absalon.


Personally, I like watching the women battle in DH too. Especially last year with Rachel hurt all season, it was anyone's game!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

plupp said:


> For me, the XCO for Womens are 10x times more fun to watch than Nino vs nobody/Absalon.


This year could be interesting with addition of Sina and Kate to the senior ranks. Those girls were seriously fast last year, at some world cups their lap times matched the elite women's leaders. I suspect they will be a major factor.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Sina Frei just announced that she will stay in the U23 for the 2018 season.


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## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

On the tech side, Absalon riding SRAM drivetrain and an SR Suntour fork on his BMC. His Instagram “teasing” also seems to show a BMC Agonist. As opposed to Fourstroke. It’ll be interesting to see if he sticks with the (albeit slightly) longer travel bike, or if a new Fourstroke is on the way.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

PlanB said:


> On the tech side, Absalon riding SRAM drivetrain and an SR Suntour fork on his BMC. His Instagram "teasing" also seems to show a BMC Agonist. As opposed to Fourstroke. It'll be interesting to see if he sticks with the (albeit slightly) longer travel bike, or if a new Fourstroke is on the way.


He posted a photo of a Fourstroke today. I seem to recall reading that a new Fourstroke was coming from BMC though...


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

PlanB said:


> On the tech side, Absalon riding SRAM drivetrain and an SR Suntour fork on his BMC. His Instagram "teasing" also seems to show a BMC Agonist. As opposed to Fourstroke. It'll be interesting to see if he sticks with the (albeit slightly) longer travel bike, or if a new Fourstroke is on the way.


how did you figure from his teasing it was an Agonist? Looks like Four stroke to me.
And he posted today a Four stroke, and in his teasing pics you can see Four stroke written on the top tube.


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## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

peabody said:


> how did you figure from his teasing it was an Agonist? Looks like Four stroke to me.
> And he posted today a Four stroke, and in his teasing pics you can see Four stroke written on the top tube.


Yup, I'm wrong. The Instagram shot of the cassette area showed a seatstay with graphics that looked like the Agonist 01, to me. The red swoosh things. His big "reveal" is definitely a Fourstroke though.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

For 2018, Ralph Näf's team (Flückiger brothers, Kathrin Stirnemann and Alessandra Keller) is sponsored by Swiss brand Thömus (link in german)


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## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

FOCUS (Derby) discontinues XCO sponsoring.

Florian Vogel shocked:



__ https://www.facebook.com/florian.vogel.902/posts/1417848175009188


(in German)

At this time of the year really bad. The new homepage of FOCUS shows clearly where the new priorities lie.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

quax said:


> FOCUS (Derby) discontinues XCO sponsoring.
> 
> Florian Vogel shocked:
> 
> ...


Not sure how a company can do something like this to their athletes, apparently Vogel just received the bad news 2 days ago...

Hopefully he finds a sponsor or at least a way to compete this season.

On other news Pauline seems to have gotten back her mojo, I think this season she will be a contender.


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## Feideaux (Jan 14, 2004)

Neff and PFP just took each other out in a colossal yard sale at the UCI world CX cup in Hoogerhede. They were in 4th and 5th, closing in fast and just about to make contact with the leaders.

Off Camber muddy downhill, Neff tried to go underneath PFP but their different line choices forced a collision, catapulting Pauline over the top of Jolanda.

PFP carried off on a stretcher, holding her arm gingerly but also reaching for her hip/knee, it seemed.

Really hoping it looked worse than it actually was...


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Feideaux said:


> Neff and PFP just took each other out in a colossal yard sale at the UCI world CX cup in Hoogerhede. They were in 4th and 5th, closing in fast and just about to make contact with the leaders.
> 
> Off Camber muddy downhill, Neff tried to go underneath PFP but their different line choices forced a collision, catapulting Pauline over the top of Jolanda.
> 
> ...


Oh boy, that is terrible news, that is what you risk racing cx just before race season is about to begin.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

It's about 33min into the race. Looked like a nasty one!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

TDLover said:


> Oh boy, that is terrible news, that is what you risk racing cx just before race season is about to begin.


Well, in PFP's defense, "race season" is year round. And, I'm guessing that she is able to substantially boost her yearly income by racing the CX schedule. Doing the CX WCs and one of the bigger non-WC series, when you're almost guaranteed a top-10 result, could add a good chunk of change to her bank account. The DVV series, for example, pays out 10,000E, 7,000E and 5,000E, 2,500E and 1250E to the top 5 in the series.

In the WCs, PFP's result from the previous WC paid her 3,000 Euro. Eva Lechner made 15,000 for her overall 3rd place finish, plus all of the individual race finish prizes of 18,850 euro. That's 33,850 euro, or $42,000, for 9 races.


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## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

quax said:


> FOCUS (Derby) discontinues XCO sponsoring.
> 
> Florian Vogel shocked:
> 
> ...


All related postings from Florian Vogel have vanished from Facebook and Twitter. Derby's laywers?


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

TDLover said:


> Oh boy, that is terrible news, that is what you risk racing cx just before race season is about to begin.


According to PFP's twitter account she is fine just with some bruising. She plans to race the world champs next week.

As for the crash, to me it looked like PFP losing her front wheel was the final cause. You can see it slide right into Neff causing her to crash and PFP to go right over the top.

I hope Neff is ok as well, she was flying too!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Well, in PFP's defense, "race season" is year round. And, I'm guessing that she is able to substantially boost her yearly income by racing the CX schedule. Doing the CX WCs and one of the bigger non-WC series, when you're almost guaranteed a top-10 result, could add a good chunk of change to her bank account. The DVV series, for example, pays out 10,000E, 7,000E and 5,000E, 2,500E and 1250E to the top 5 in the series.
> 
> In the WCs, PFP's result from the previous WC paid her 3,000 Euro. Eva Lechner made 15,000 for her overall 3rd place finish, plus all of the individual race finish prizes of 18,850 euro. That's 33,850 euro, or $42,000, for 9 races.


Yep. Good money can be made racing cross. And I am sure Pauline is able to get some start money at some races.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I don't imagine most of them are racing for anything less than money, or required practice. If racing CX before XC season pays the bills, than you have to do it. If you crash in a practice race on a course you will be racing in the upcoming season, than, well, sometimes you get hurt in practice!


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

khardrunner14 said:


> According to PFP's twitter account she is fine just with some bruising. She plans to race the world champs next week.
> 
> As for the crash, to me it looked like PFP losing her front wheel was the final cause. You can see it slide right into Neff causing her to crash and PFP to go right over the top.
> 
> I hope Neff is ok as well, she was flying too!


That's good news, that was pretty ugly. Yeah, PFP was washing out and probably going down, but Neff was in the path of her slide and they both ended up going over the high-side.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Well, in PFP's defense, "race season" is year round. And, I'm guessing that she is able to substantially boost her yearly income by racing the CX schedule. Doing the CX WCs and one of the bigger non-WC series, when you're almost guaranteed a top-10 result, could add a good chunk of change to her bank account. The DVV series, for example, pays out 10,000E, 7,000E and 5,000E, 2,500E and 1250E to the top 5 in the series.
> 
> In the WCs, PFP's result from the previous WC paid her 3,000 Euro. Eva Lechner made 15,000 for her overall 3rd place finish, plus all of the individual race finish prizes of 18,850 euro. That's 33,850 euro, or $42,000, for 9 races.


That is a lot of money, does she get the same kind of money from racing XC? I would think not.


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## Feideaux (Jan 14, 2004)

Neff - broken collarbone and elbow, will miss first WC round (via Kross Instagram).


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

TDLover said:


> That is a lot of money, does she get the same kind of money from racing XC? I would think not.


XC doesn't have the same the prize money but it isn't horrible. Catharine's best years was around $50,000 in prize money but that was with 3 world cup wins and a world championship.

A European rider (more UCI races) on a good does well. I bet that Jolanda cleared close to 100,000 in prize money alone during her best seasons.


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## mackdhagen (Jun 17, 2011)

Its too bad Neff did was not able to finish and wow...supprised she broke her collarbone. Neff was in the mix early on in top 3/4..great race. One cool part was a 45 degree off-camber downhill to a tricky dogleg. Most of the other women were outriggering through it and Neff just went through it barely having to put a foot down..
Cool to see, too bad she was taken out at 3 or 4th lap on that same section.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Video of the crash:


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Ouch!
PfP should have been the one with the broken collarbone!
Looked to have the much heavier/higher landing.

Bugger for Jolanda


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## mackdhagen (Jun 17, 2011)

PFP went off in a full strecher and from her body language it looks like she has a collarbone plus, plus. The whole time neff was conforting her and Neff walked off. I thought she was ok and suppirse she got that beaten up...that crash looks worse in real time and if you really look those girls hit the deck when it was flattening out.


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## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

Man that really sucks. Neff would have hit 2018 by storm


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

From Kross Racing Team FB page: 

Jolanda Neff broke her collarbone.

Kross Racing Team rider to undergo surgery today after breaking her left collarbone. The examination confirmed that she broke also right elbow. Neff crashed during the UCI cyclocross World Cup in Hoogerheide.

"I felt good yesterday and I enjoyed cyclocross races this year. The worst thing is not body pain but the idea that I miss World Championships next week. We decided with the team that it will be better to skip also first mountain bike World Cup in Stellenbosch. My plan is to recover for first European World Cup in Albstadt. I'm very thankful for Kross Racing Team guys: Magda, Kornel & Tomek and my dad that they came for me and supported me on cyclocross events this year." - said Jolanda Neff.

Jolanda Neff and Kross Racing Team thank for all help and warm words from the fans. We will inform about Jolanda's recovery as soon as possible.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

From Maja Wloszczowska, Neff's teammate:

"I can't describe how sorry I am. My teammate Jolanda Neff is a shiny star of every race she takes part in. Unfortunately she will not shine on CX World Champs and she will most probably not shine on first MTB World Cup. But this star is also a very strong women and I'm sure she will be back sooner than anyone can expect. Broken collarbone and elbow is just a short stop in her long, awesome sport career. Stay strong Jolo! We are waiting for you!" 

Looks like Neff will miss first WC race in SA but should be back in Albstadt.


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## JoelGuelph (May 20, 2010)

I'd be really shocked if PFP didn't at least have a concussion from that. Has anyone heard if she is racing the World Champs on Sunday?


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

According to her Twitter feed, she's fine and will race the world champs.


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## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

FOCUS XC Team: naughty Florian is deeply sorry and regrets everything he has said. Apparently just a big misunderstanding. Naughty, naughty Florian.

https://www.facebook.com/FOCUSXCTea...19606847747/10156061837002748/?type=3&theater


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

quax said:


> FOCUS XC Team: naughty Florian is deeply sorry and regrets everything he has said. Apparently just a big misunderstanding. Naughty, naughty Florian.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/FOCUSXCTea...19606847747/10156061837002748/?type=3&theater


Interesting. Apparently they ARE sponsoring an XCO team this year. With Vogel.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Wonder what lead him to believe he was out?


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

machine4321 said:


> Wonder what lead him to believe he was out?


I believe what he said the other day is true. Focus is retiring from sponsoring XC this year.

On the other hand Focus XC team which is not the same as the factory is still under contract with its athletes and have to fulfill their support if they don't want any legal trouble.

Now, I don't know if focus xc team were thinking of breaching contract this season and Vogel going public made them reconsider or if Vogel thought since Focus factory was pulling out that the focus xc team would be disbanded right away.

To be honest none of the two make much sense, looks like sloppy management


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Makes sense. I forget at times that the factory backed teams are often not associated with the factory other then by name and being the main sponsor.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Nino finally was beaten yesterday...by a teammate: https://inthebunch.co.za/2018/02/sa-mtb-cup-series-xco-1-results-swiss-trio-dominate/


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

I think one of his strongest attributes is his ego is under control. It's not uncommon to see Nino loose an early season race or just barely win. He is great an saving it for the important races. 

I know it was a sprint but I can only assume he took it easy during the race. 

But on a side note he wouldn't let a sprint go with out trying. Good job to Mathias!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Watching MVP struggle at CX worlds today really puts into context just how amazing Nino's season was last year. To never have a bad day at a major race over a 5 month season is feat that I think we under appreciate.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

LMN said:


> Watching MVP struggle at CX worlds today really puts into context just how amazing Nino's season was last year. To never have a bad day at a major race over a 5 month season is feat that I think we under appreciate.


 Give the kid a break, he won more races in the last 5 months than Nino has in the last 3 years.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

I don't know how you got something disparaging out of that comment.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

LMN said:


> Watching MVP struggle at CX worlds today really puts into context just how amazing Nino's season was last year. To never have a bad day at a major race over a 5 month season is feat that I think we under appreciate.


I'd be interested to hear an expert analysis of MVDP's season. Not having access to data or anything more than what I can watch on live streams, the world's were baffling to me (to say the least). Not wanting to be negative, but I found myself asking whether or not MVDP threw the race. Here is a guy who slams out so much power, by lap 3 of nearly every WC race he's basically got it in the bag. At world champs, he gets beaten by Vanthourenhout who hasn't come within even a minute of MVDP at prior cup races.

I know form is hard to carry for long periods of time, but that would be a shockingly drastic drop in form over a really short period of time.

Maybe there is a super simple explanation. Maybe he was trying party_wagon's nutrition plan the night before (http://forums.mtbr.com/xc-racing-training/decrease-performance-14-craft-beers-day-1067876.html). In any case, I would be really interested to hear from someone closer to MVDP's data to help squash some of my speculation.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

winters.benjamin said:


> I'd be interested to hear an expert analysis of MVDP's season. Not having access to data or anything more than what I can watch on live streams, the world's were baffling to me (to say the least). Not wanting to be negative, but I found myself asking whether or not MVDP threw the race. Here is a guy who slams out so much power, by lap 3 of nearly every WC race he's basically got it in the bag. At world champs, he gets beaten by Vanthourenhout who hasn't come within even a minute of MVDP at prior cup races.
> 
> I know form is hard to carry for long periods of time, but that would be a shockingly drastic drop in form over a really short period of time.
> 
> Maybe there is a super simple explanation. Maybe he was trying party_wagon's nutrition plan the night before (http://forums.mtbr.com/xc-racing-training/decrease-performance-14-craft-beers-day-1067876.html). In any case, I would be really interested to hear from someone closer to MVDP's data to help squash some of my speculation.


I think the data wouldn't tell you anything of interest. Knowing why his power dropped would be the interesting part: pressure, lack of motivation, disliking the gnarly conditions,... maybe all came together, maybe not. I guess we will never know


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

I am by no means an expert, but my initial thought after Saturday’s muddy races was “this course is Wout’s”. It wasn’t about power but who could get thier flow on that day. For whatever reason Wout seemsto nail the big race when conditions are tough, same as last year. Had this been a course where power was key with a few tech sectionsto master, MvDP would likely have won. However it was a slog fest on an extreme course. It was really about who had the flow.

I am not saing MvDP lacks skill or can’t do mud. I am saying he can win on just about any course against just about anyone, but this course in these conditions minimized that possibility.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

This course seemed to benefit diesel power...like Wout and Compton in the women's race enabling her to get the silver medal. A guy with "spurty" power like MvdP probably couldn't use it as effectively because of wheel slippage. Also, Wout again outfoxed them with his tire choice (horses for courses): https://www.cxmagazine.com/worlds-tech-tire-tread-swap-van-aert-van-der-poel-valkenburg-limburg


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## wheelzqc (Aug 31, 2016)

It's often been mentioned how Wout is a good runner.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

winters.benjamin said:


> I'd be interested to hear an expert analysis of MVDP's season. Not having access to data or anything more than what I can watch on live streams, the world's were baffling to me (to say the least). Not wanting to be negative, but I found myself asking whether or not MVDP threw the race. Here is a guy who slams out so much power, by lap 3 of nearly every WC race he's basically got it in the bag. At world champs, he gets beaten by Vanthourenhout who hasn't come within even a minute of MVDP at prior cup races.
> 
> I know form is hard to carry for long periods of time, but that would be a shockingly drastic drop in form over a really short period of time.
> 
> Maybe there is a super simple explanation. Maybe he was trying party_wagon's nutrition plan the night before (http://forums.mtbr.com/xc-racing-training/decrease-performance-14-craft-beers-day-1067876.html). In any case, I would be really interested to hear from someone closer to MVDP's data to help squash some of my speculation.


Wout had been getting closer. And in the past Wout has been better at heavy courses with steep run-ups.

I suspect that on 2nd lap when MVDP realized that he could not match Wout it crushed him mentally and he raced below his capacity for the rest of race.

When someone expects a certain result and find they are not going to get it they often massively under achieve.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

LMN said:


> When someone expects a certain result and find they are not going to get it they often massively under achieve.


That's my problem too, every race lol.


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## m3bas (Dec 24, 2011)

VDP really drops the head when he realises he can't win.
Plus watching that race they had to run nearly half the course. He may have huge 5min power on the bike but not worth much when you're carrying the thing.


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## flowby2wheels (Mar 17, 2016)

Just watched this race for some good indoor trainer distraction... you could see exactly when VDP lost it mentally... first lap, side by side with Wout in that nasty mud run up... Wout is perfectly smooth the full way up. Fast feet. Effortless. Several slightly slips from VDP in the bottom and middle and a slight stumble near the top. From that point it was written across his hunched shoulders... 

6 more of these lap climbs and I can’t even hold up the first one but there goes Wout. 

****. 

It also seemed pure mental when he pulled his act together when about to lose 3rd place near the end. Plenty of gas in the tank. 

Damn fun race to watch.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Is there a place where to watch the replay?


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

Youtube UCI channel has all the WC races
https://www.youtube.com/user/ucichannel


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

machine4321 said:


> That's my problem too, every race lol.


I've got the opposite. I always expect to be last, so anything above last gives me hope!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Sidewalk said:


> I've got the opposite. I always expect to be last, so anything above last gives me hope!


I get last so others don't have to.
It's a public service.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NordieBoy again.


...


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

Rivet said:


> Give the kid a break, he won more races in the last 5 months than Nino has in the last 3 years.


With all respect for MVP please dont compare Olympic champion with someone who dont have olympic medal. Olympic games are most important competition in world. And only few of them can achieve olympic medal, olny FEW! MVP has his carrer and we will see if he can have medal. And Nino have won 3 of them!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

XC_killer said:


> With all respect for MVP please dont compare Olympic champion with someone who dont have olympic medal. Olympic games are most important competition in world. And only few of them can achieve olympic medal, olny FEW! MVP has his carrer and we will see if he can have medal. And Nino have won 3 of them!


That's like saying don't compare Peter Sagan to Greg van Avermaet.

Come on.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> That's like saying don't compare Peter Sagan to Greg van Avermaet.
> 
> Come on.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Please, use some logic! I have not compared them but instead this have been done by Rivet. By saying that MVD won more races than Nino in 3 years in which time he won 6 world cup, Olympic, and World championship. Has MVP done that in his sport, NO! You dont need to compare them but their achievements. Plus for this argument CX is very close to XC and even so MVP will have his chance at Olympic in 2020. Come here in 2020 and read my comment, MVP will not win medal! Maximum he can do is come in top 10.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

XC_killer said:


> Please, use some logic! I have not compared them but instead this have been done by Rivet. By saying that MVD won more races than Nino in 3 years in which time he won 6 world cup, Olympic, and World championship. Has MVP done that in his sport, NO! You dont need to compare them but their achievements. Plus for this argument CX is very close to XC and even so MVP will have his chance at Olympic in 2020. Come here in 2020 and read my comment, MVP will not win medal! Maximum he can do is come in top 10.


Are you ignoring the fact that MvdP has a 2nd and an 8th place to his name in WC XCO events as a 22 year old?

As far as I can tell, that second place is better than Marco Aurelio Fontana or Carlos Coloma have ever done in a World Cup. Yet both of them have Olympic medals.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> Are you ignoring the fact that MvdP has a 2nd and an 8th place to his name in WC XCO events as a 22 year old?
> 
> As far as I can tell, that second place is better than Marco Aurelio Fontana or Carlos Coloma have ever done in a World Cup. Yet both of them have Olympic medals.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I thought you know something about sport. But obiviosly you are internet troll.

This is why is Olympic most hard and important race in season. It is impossibly hard to prepre everything in 4 year period. Tapering, rest, to qualify, prepare mentaly and fitness. It is 4 year work for 1 day! Take some time and read sport history not only in cycling but other olympic sport and you will see what I am talking about. By my humble oppionion MVP is great rider, and Rivet compare him to Nino. For your information Nino won bronze medal at Olympic with only 21-22 years. If you compare Nino and MVP than Nino is much more succesful than MVP.

I told you, MVP is main plan Tokyo 2020 and you will see he will not get medal!

MVP is not even better than Pauline. But I say again he is great rider and great prospect.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

“Humble opinion”?? Maybe take some time to read a dictionary because those are two words that don’t belong together in one of your sentences.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

The Olympics are everything to amateur athletes, not to pros.


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

Mattmay, english is not my native language. I learn mostly from internet.

Richdie, there is no athlete pro/amateur who dont dream on olympic medal!


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## afalts (Dec 7, 2011)

XC_killer said:


> If you compare Nino and MVP than Nino is much more succesful than MVP.


Actually, if you compare MVP within CX to Nino within XCO, MVP has been far, far more successful at an equivalent age within his respective discipline. MVP won ELITE worlds at 20. Nino didn't win an elite worlds until 23 (he continued to race U23). Even if you look at MVP's MTB XCO world cup results, they have similar results at the same age (Nino raced Elite as a U23, just not for World Champs).

Using results at Olympics to determine overall success is ridiculous, I would have thought if you raced world cups you'd know that. Especially in the mens race where there will sometimes be men on the podium at world cups that year who don't get to go to the Olympics since their country didn't select them.

We'll see what MVP can string together in the future, but at 22 he has already become a very successful cyclist that is above what most elite cyclists could ever dream.



XC_killer said:


> Richdie, there is no athlete pro/amateur who dont dream on olympic medal


Sure, but it isn't the ultimate sign of the most successful career. It definitely helps though...


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

afalts said:


> Actually, if you compare MVP within CX to Nino within XCO, MVP has been far, far more successful at an equivalent age within his respective discipline. MVP won ELITE worlds at 20. Nino didn't win an elite worlds until 23 (he continued to race U23). Even if you look at MVP's MTB XCO world cup results, they have similar results at the same age (Nino raced Elite as a U23, just not for World Champs).
> 
> Using results at Olympics to determine overall success is ridiculous, I would have thought if you raced world cups you'd know that. Especially in the mens race where there will sometimes be men on the podium at world cups that year who don't get to go to the Olympics since their country didn't select them.
> 
> ...


Olympic qualify problem is only in Swiss because they have to many good riders. Others country doesnt have that problem. In 95% riders who deserve will go to Olympics. Or at least the very very best!

I am racing wc so I know what I am talking about. Every rider/athlete paramount goal is Olympic. With Olympic you got world wide audience and viewers. For one race whole world is watching you. Winning medal at Olympics will have better influence on your carrer than winning all WC. After you win medal you have media all over you, and why is that important? Because you gain new sponsors. You became known athlete, and you gain recogniton outside of sport and then you can have Colgate for sponsors and not just shimano or fox.

For me the money is most important, if I dont get enough sponsors my carrer is over. When you win medal you have finished problems with money. Further, there are many gouveremenet benefits from your country when you bring medal. So basically your carer is safe.

CX benefits younger riders because shorter race time. When Nino race at 20 in XC it was different sport where older are better endurance riders. For XC you need much more time to learn tehnic of riding then CX. So again you need to be more experience rider. Is hard to compare sport, and dont take me wrong by thinkg that I think that MVP is not fenomenal rider. He is. But in my oppinion he is not nearly as good as Nino. Maybe in future he will be. And also I guramte you he will not win medal at Olympics. You can come in 2 years on my post. Dont foreget that!


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

I also think the olympic medal is the most important event in any pro athlete, however since it only happens every 4 years is it quite hard to perform in that single day to your best performance.

That however doesn't mean that if an athlete lacks a gold medal he's not the best, as was the case with Nino till last year, he had not gotten a gold medal, yet he already was the best in the sport, irrefutably.



XC_killer said:


> But in my oppinion he is not nearly as good as Nino. Maybe in future he will be. And also I guramte you he will not win medal at Olympics. You can come in 2 years on my post. Dont foreget that!


What makes so sure that he won't win a medal. I agree with you in mostly all you said, but still I'm curious what makes you so sure about something that can/can not happen.

Also, remember this is a place to share opinions, they can be right or wrong, no need to call people trolls or tell them they are wrong, specially when they are subjective things. If something is a hard fact feel free to correct people and provide your references.


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

TDLover - I thought that he is troll because two time he told me that I say something that I havent. It was not because oppinion rather he was trolling me.

My oppnion why he wont win medal is just my prediction, my personal thinking. I may not be correct but I am 100% sure in that. 

He is natural born rider, of course hard working also. But he lacks in my eyes one crucial abilite to win gold medal and we all have seen that on last race. My thinking about him was always the same, before the last race.

Someone here write that he was 2. In WC. Do you know why he wasent 1? Because he was leading the race and he should win at that peticular day, and he can tell me why he didint won. 

Because he made the same mistake in front of my eyes in albstadt. Maybe I am one of few in world to see exactly that situation. The same mistake he has done on last race. This is why I am sure he will not win medal at 2020. 

On 2024 he maybe can get to much experience and became to good so he can win, because on end of the day he is fenomenal rider.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

XC_killer said:


> But in my oppinion he is not nearly as good as Nino. Maybe in future he will be. And also I guramte you he will not win medal at Olympics. You can come in 2 years on my post. Dont foreget that!


A bold statement!!

MVP abilities on cross bike are without question. His mountain bike results have been rather mixed. In two seasons of racing world cups he really only had two great races which have put him in the top 10. His other WC race results have been solidly mediocre.

But he is still really young, and with youth come inconsistency. I want to say to that this season we will get a better idea of what he can do but I don't think we will.

I think this year he is going to come into the season hot. Depending on course design he is my pick for the win in South Africa. But I think that is going to be it for him. He has been to fast for too long and when it comes to the mountain bike season he will have at most 4 weeks of good form.

Observationally, it seems that you are either fast for the CX season or your are fast for the MTB season, both just doesn't happen.


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

+ plus for that also, you can not bee on top for 2 season. CX season and then go till next september in XC season.

But, I think in next 2 years he will completely transfer on XC and ride only most important races on CX


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

The interesting thing on the Men's front is Nino's dominance is going to come an end sooner versus later. He has been on top for five or six years, that is generally the maximum life span of a dominant rider. Both Absalon and Gunrita were at the top of their game for that long. After that they were still good but no longer dominant.

I think the 2020 games are going to be pretty wide open. 

Who are the riders to watch for the next two years, other then Nino, Kulhavy, MVPD, and Abslaon?


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

It is possible for Nino to decline this season. My prediction is that he maybe can be overall winner but hardly dominant like last year. I think we have seen his peak. But for sure in next 5 years if he ride he will allways be favorite for podium. I will give him 2-3 wins this year in WC at maximum. From now on it depends about his style of life and willingens to suffer after he achieve everything. 

I think that France has strong guys, really strong. Tempier, Sarrou and Absalon. But with his own new team it can be good or bad, we will see. 

But I am interested what can Ondrej Cink do, because I liked him allways and he is good rider. After road season it will be interesting to see how that will play along on xc. 

Dont forget Kulhavy who will be good, how good it depends. But even with broken hand on Olympic game he take silver. He is totaly unpredictible and strong.

I think that Stirneman also can make some nice results. It looks like he is gaining some nice form. 

Mvd will be factor at begining of the season, I think till albstadt he will be spend. 

What do you think about women category? What is prediction? I think that Maja will be in good form. And also Benko from Hungary. She couls be new potential great rider. I think that Yana had some problems on training, so I ak not expecting to see her in good form on begining maybe on albstadt to bee the fastest.

Also, I think Catherine can find mojo this season. I think that Olympic season was great in results and cost her some energy. And this year she could come back strong.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

XC_killer said:


> It is possible for Nino to decline this season. My prediction is that he maybe can be overall winner but hardly dominant like last year. I think we have seen his peak. But for sure in next 5 years if he ride he will allways be favorite for podium. I will give him 2-3 wins this year in WC at maximum. From now on it depends about his style of life and willingens to suffer after he achieve everything.
> 
> I think that France has strong guys, really strong. Tempier, Sarrou and Absalon. But with his own new team it can be good or bad, we will see.
> 
> ...


How strong is Sarrou in person? I've seen a couple really impressive performances from him, and had picked him to be a threat in 2017 but it didn't really come to fruition. Since I'm only observing through what I see on TV it's hard to say.

And I'd also not rule out M Fluckinger, he seems to be strong but inconsistent just like Kulhavy.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Sam Gaze and Anton Cooper with Nino battling for 3rd.


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

winters.benjamin said:


> How strong is Sarrou in person? I've seen a couple really impressive performances from him, and had picked him to be a threat in 2017 but it didn't really come to fruition. Since I'm only observing through what I see on TV it's hard to say.
> 
> And I'd also not rule out M Fluckinger, he seems to be strong but inconsistent just like Kulhavy.


Most of them are incredibly strong and faster then me. I could say that all the guys we talk here are impresive and have big engine with lot of power. Observing, watching, racing and etc. Only on guy is impossible to catch and that is Nino. I think that fighting with Absalon who is legend made him better rider. Nino has some strange style of smoothnes and incredibl pace on shorter to medium hills. If you stand at bottom and wait him on fast lap and try to go with him on 1 climb you are going to suffer hard! On downhill is his smothnes wich give him time to recover.

Only one guy impress me that I said what is this?? That is Kulhavy, on some races he is solid but few times I watch him hammer the hill and flat areas and it look like he has motocross and not the bycycle. You can see him going on flat with speed you could hardly keep on road bike. When he is ready, motivated and healthy he is top contender in the world no matter against who.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> Sam Gaze and Anton Cooper with Nino battling for 3rd.


I think both of the Kiwi's have the potential to be dominant riders. However, both of them have struggled with a series of minor health issues. Unless that trend changes they will never realize their potential.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

TDLover said:


> I also think the olympic medal is the most important event in any pro athlete, however since it only happens every 4 years is it quite hard to perform in that single day to your best performance.
> 
> That however doesn't mean that if an athlete lacks a gold medal he's not the best, as was the case with Nino till last year, he had not gotten a gold medal, yet he already was the best in the sport, irrefutably.


Winning gold is certainly nice, but it's more of a footnote compared to UCI results. You wouldn't focus your year on the Olympics, you would focus your year on the actual racing season and fit the Olympics in. It is one race and if bad luck strikes, like in the case of Sagan, you've missed two opportunities.

Just like the world championships, it's cool, but it's not a racer's primary goal.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

LMN said:


> The interesting thing on the Men's front is Nino's dominance is going to come an end sooner versus later. He has been on top for five or six years, that is generally the maximum life span of a dominant rider. Both Absalon and Gunrita were at the top of their game for that long. After that they were still good but no longer dominant.


It seemed to me that Nino put his EVERYTHING into Rio. Yes, he was incredible before that, but all efforts went into getting that gold medal. Now he is benefiting from all that work. I imagine it will fade away. Maybe he will try and peak again for 2020, but I think it'll be hard to get up to 2016 form, hold championship form, and peak again for 2020.

But, I'm not ruling anyone out right now.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

richde said:


> Winning gold is certainly nice, but it's more of a footnote compared to UCI results. You wouldn't focus your year on the Olympics, you would focus your year on the actual racing season and fit the Olympics in. It is one race and if bad luck strikes, like in the case of Sagan, you've missed two opportunities.
> 
> Just like the world championships, it's cool, but it's not a racer's primary goal.


Hmmm, pretty sure a lot of top riders had the Olympics as the main goal/focus in 2016, with UCI results being secondary. Yes, it is just one race & that IS the reason to make it the goal. Nino could have had a flat or other mech and others have a better shot at a podium. As a racer, you might only ever get to the Olympics once, you can do UCI every year.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

kevbikemad said:


> Hmmm, pretty sure a lot of top riders had the Olympics as the main goal/focus in 2016, with UCI results being secondary. Yes, it is just one race & that IS the reason to make it the goal. Nino could have had a flat or other mech and others have a better shot at a podium. As a racer, you might only ever get to the Olympics once, you can do UCI every year.


UCI results get you paid, Olympic medals look nice on the mantle.


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

richde said:


> UCI results get you paid, Olympic medals look nice on the mantle.


Richdie all the time write stuff that are not logical!

If you win Gold medal France gouverement will pay 65.000 dollars.
Italy 190.000 dollars
Swiss-Nino 93.000 dollars

You need to learn more about sport.

Cheers


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

XC_killer said:


> Richdie all the time write stuff that are not logical!
> 
> If you win Gold medal France gouverement will pay 65.000 dollars.
> Italy 190.000 dollars
> ...


 _
One aspect of the Olympic Games many U.S. viewers remain unaware of is the fact that U.S. medalists (like those from many other countries) receive cash prizes along with their medals: $25,000 for gold, $15,000 for silver, and $10,000 for bronze. These rewards are not paid by the International Olympic Committee (which furnishes the medals), but by the U.S. Olympic Committee. Similarly, participants from some other countries receive monetary prizes put up by their home countries' Olympic committees.

Forbes reported on the issue of medal bonuses in July 2012, noting that:

The biggest medal bonus is offered by Italy, which will pay more than $182,000 for a gold medal. Russia's medal rewards are also quite rich, and the nation's gold medal winners will collect $135,000. Even Russian bronze medalists will take home $54,400, more than double the payout for American gold. Neighboring Ukraine has been considering an increase to its already rich payout scale: $100,000 for gold, $75,000 for silver and $50,000 for bronze.

Even Ghana promised its gold medal winners a payout of $20,000, not far behind the American reward.

Perhaps surprisingly, the worst medal bonus is paid by Great Britain. Or rather, not paid. The host nation does not pay a performance bonus to medal-winning athletes._

Good read:
https://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/olympics.asp


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

XC_killer said:


> Richdie all the time write stuff that are not logical!
> 
> If you win Gold medal France gouverement will pay 65.000 dollars.
> Italy 190.000 dollars
> ...


Singapore is by far the largest payer, up to 1 million US dollars for a gold medal at Olympic games, they even have their reason up on their site for such a payout:



> *For competitive athletes, the cost of training at elite level requires an enormous financial investment over many years. Of all athletes who dream of winning an Olympic medal, only a small percentage will find themselves on the podium at the Games.*
> 
> The Singapore National Olympic Council in the 1990s, under the direction of then President Dr. Yeo Ning Hong, devised an incentive scheme to reward medal-winning athletes. The Multi-Million Dollar Award Programme provides a cash payout to athletes who win medals at the Olympic, Asian, Commonwealth and South East Asian (SEA) Games.
> 
> *The largest gold medal award is $1 million, payable to the athlete who claims an individual gold medal at the Olympic Games.* The smallest is a $10,000 windfall for an individual gold medallist at the SEA Games. The value of the awards varies with the respective Games, with the Olympic Games providing significantly higher payouts. The awards also vary, based on individual medals versus team event or team sports medals.


My country, Mexico, pays US 160,000, color me surprised. I guess USA is one of the few who pays the least, surprised again.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

richde said:


> Winning gold is certainly nice, but it's more of a footnote compared to UCI results. You wouldn't focus your year on the Olympics, you would focus your year on the actual racing season and fit the Olympics in. It is one race and if bad luck strikes, like in the case of Sagan, you've missed two opportunities.
> 
> Just like the world championships, it's cool, but it's not a racer's primary goal.


The Olympics is the primary goal for every XCO athlete. All the top riders are on quadrenial training plans. This means that there are years where they are training so that they sacrifice performance. Because nearly everybody does this it doesn't always show up in race results.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

XC_killer said:


> Richdie all the time write stuff that are not logical!
> 
> If you win Gold medal France gouverement will pay 65.000 dollars.
> Italy 190.000 dollars
> ...


I know that the 2016 event happened between the last two World Cup events, it's not going to be that detrimental to the rest of your season if that's when you decide to peak, especially if everyone else probably will too. It's not like you're going to go from finishing 10-20th and then be in competition for the gold either. Put the Olympics outside of their regular racing schedule and then we'll see what people focus on, like if CX became a summer event.

I was also thinking of the more broad pro vs. amateur argument, since not every road racer seemed to care a whole lot about the Olympics. TdF vs. the Olympic road race? The TdF is going to win.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

richde said:


> I know that the 2016 event happened between the last two World Cup events, it's not going to be that detrimental to the rest of your season if that's when you decide to peak, especially if everyone else probably will too. It's not like you're going to go from finishing 10-20th and then be in competition for the gold either. Put the Olympics outside of their regular racing schedule and then we'll see what people focus on, like if CX became a summer event.


In the men's race, the three medalists skipped the WC just before the Olympics, sacrificing the overall WC title for Nino. It is pretty clear where was the focus.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

LMN said:


> I think both of the Kiwi's have the potential to be dominant riders. However, both of them have struggled with a series of minor health issues. Unless that trend changes they will never realize their potential.


Yep, true dat.


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## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

Geoff Kabush is riding Yeti's this year- assuming this means they'll put out a new ASR. He's not WC anymore but still interesting.

Saw a post by Batty this morning- Trek Factory Racing is running SRAM and Rock Shox this year.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

richde said:


> I was also thinking of the more broad pro vs. amateur argument, since not every road racer seemed to care a whole lot about the Olympics. TdF vs. the Olympic road race? The TdF is going to win.


The scale of economics and mechanisms of business within pro road racing are completely different from XCO MTB. Hence, the motivations and decisions surrounding prioritization of events are also radically different.


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## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

https://racing.trekbikes.com/sport/...ry-racing-announces-2018-cross-country-squad/

Previous rumors confirmed. I'm curious to see how Ellen Noble does in the WC scene.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

FJSnoozer said:


> _
> One aspect of the Olympic Games many U.S. viewers remain unaware of is the fact that U.S. medalists (like those from many other countries) receive cash prizes along with their medals: $25,000 for gold, $15,000 for silver, and $10,000 for bronze. These rewards are not paid by the International Olympic Committee (which furnishes the medals), but by the U.S. Olympic Committee. Similarly, participants from some other countries receive monetary prizes put up by their home countries' Olympic committees.
> 
> Forbes reported on the issue of medal bonuses in July 2012, noting that:
> ...


There are also some countries like i.e. Poland where once you win an Olympic medal, the government will give you a state pension when you retire so that's a steady income later in life.


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## Afrobiker (Dec 19, 2010)

csteven71 said:


> https://racing.trekbikes.com/sport/...ry-racing-announces-2018-cross-country-squad/
> 
> Previous rumors confirmed. I'm curious to see how Ellen Noble does in the WC scene.


Interested too. I don't see here being super competitive, BUT using it as good training against European competition and MAYBE a prolonged stay for CX in the European campaign a la Katie Compton...


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Looks like Jenny is out for a while.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/olympic...-and-scott-sram-agreed-to-part-ways-2018.html


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I think world championship courses may not favor MVP because they are extremely hard and involve a lot of running. He is a big powerhouse type guy. At some point everyone reaches their limit and he reached his. He showed some class by not quitting and taking second. This course fit Wout to a T.
In all the races he won throughout the year he was able to use the courses to his advantage.
I thought he quit at some of the World Cup MTB races but many riders do when they hit their limit. Excited to watch him race this next year. 
Olympic medals don't always go to the best riders.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

machine4321 said:


> Looks like Jenny is out for a while.
> 
> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/olympic...-and-scott-sram-agreed-to-part-ways-2018.html


That is too bad, hope she can get healthy.


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

machine4321 said:


> Looks like Jenny is out for a while.
> 
> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/olympic...-and-scott-sram-agreed-to-part-ways-2018.html


So unfortunate and sad. I hope she can refocus and find balance in her life. Hopefully we'll see her on the MTB again, as well.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

I'm glad she acknowledges her mental issues and is seeking help. There are a lot of people with mental problems and nobody ever notices until is too late. 

Her sports career really is secondary, when she gets better we'll see if she ever comes back, but either way she has already accomplished a whole lot for a person to be satisfied for life (in that part of her life anyway).


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

TDLover said:


> I'm glad she acknowledges her mental issues and is seeking help. There are a lot of people with mental problems and nobody ever notices until is too late.
> 
> Her sports career really is secondary, when she gets better we'll see if she ever comes back, but either way she has already accomplished a whole lot for a person to be satisfied for life (in that part of her life anyway).


Agreed. A pretty mature decision for a fairly young individual.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Howard Grotts won stage 2 of the Cyprus Sunshine Cup yesterday and finished 3rd today with Kulhavy taking the win today. I saw that Grotts was going to team up with Kulhavy and race Cape Epic this year. It's good to see him doing a little international competition.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Stonerider said:


> Howard Grotts won stage 2 of the Cyprus Sunshine Cup yesterday and finished 3rd today with Kulhavy taking the win today. I saw that Grotts was going to team up with Kulhavy and race Cape Epic this year. It's good to see him doing a little international competition.


Hopefully he'll do a full WC XCO calendar campaign this year. The US needs at least one elite male racer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Starting to get some early season races coming in.

Catharine raced in Spain today again a strong field, led most of the race but go caught last lap and ended up third in a sprint. Some surprises in the race both good and bad.

Julie Bresset was 7th 2:15 behind, an impressive return. Emily Batty was 8th which I found quite surprising. I road with her a couple of weeks ago and she was riding really fast. I had actually picked her for win in South Africa. But it is a tune-up race, a lot can change in two weeks.

Men race is tomorrow and the field is huge (230 guys). A lot of big names on the start list.


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## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

I'd really like to see Bresset return to the top. I'm also really interested in seeing how Absalon makes out. I have a nagging feeling that he's taken it a season too far... maybe it's just the cheesy social media e-bike peddling that's brought him down a notch for me  Either way I hope someone can run with Nino. Fumic is back in the tight pants, maybe that's all he needed!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

PlanB said:


> I'd really like to see Bresset return to the top. I'm also really interested in seeing how Absalon makes out. I have a nagging feeling that he's taken it a season too far... maybe it's just the cheesy social media e-bike peddling that's brought him down a notch for me  Either way I hope someone can run with Nino. Fumic is back in the tight pants, maybe that's all he needed!


It is awesome to see Bressett return. She should just get faster as the season goes on.

I suspect that we will not see Absalon at the front of a big race. I just feel he no longer has the focus or drive. There are a lot of younger focused riders who are coming up. And a top rider like Absalon is target for all of them. Any sign of weakness and he will just get swarmed.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LMN said:


> Men race is tomorrow and the field is huge (230 guys). A lot of big names on the start list.


It'd be great if you gave us your perspective after the men's race as well. (Assuming your sticking around to watch).


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

kevbikemad said:


> It'd be great if you gave us your perspective after the men's race as well. (Assuming your sticking around to watch).


I would do that but unfortunately I am about 8000km away from the racing.


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## Ksanman (Feb 15, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Hopefully he'll do a full WC XCO calendar campaign this year. The US needs at least one elite male racer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We'll have Keegan Swenson according to his website. It'd be cool to see him and Grotts battle it out.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Seeing Elisabeth Brandau take the win in Banyoles was pretty nice. She raced as a privateer last season and just got back to being a supported rider. 
That Helen Grobert beat CP to take the second spot on the podium took me by surprise as well. Maybe I underestimated her. Always thought she would be too much of a girlie type. But that might have been wrong. When I saw her on the the start it was always next to Sabine Spitz. And you just can not shine super bright in the presence of the eternal queen of German mtbing...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chilla13 said:


> Seeing Elisabeth Brandau take the win in Banyoles was pretty nice. She raced as a privateer last season and just got back to being a supported rider.


What is extra impressive is she is a mother of two with 10-month old!!! And slept in a tent the night before the race. Huge respect!


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Must be beneficial to sleep outside, extra oxygen lol.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LMN said:


> I would do that but unfortunately I am about 8000km away from the racing.


Alright, we'll let you off this time.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Lars Forster wins the Sunshine Cup and Koretzky beats Sarrou and Marotte to take the top spot in Banyoles. Koretzky is one to watch; he has got amazing technical abilities and makes riding hard look quite effortless. Souplesse may not be everything but it certainly doesn‘t hinder one.


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## preda_0 (Feb 18, 2012)

chilla13 said:


> Lars Forster wins the Sunshine Cup and Koretzky beats Sarrou and Marotte to take the top spot in Banyoles. Koretzky is one to watch; he has got amazing technical abilities and makes riding hard look quite effortless. Souplesse may not be everything but it certainly doesn't hinder one.


What about Absalon? He raced today in Banyoles


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

preda_0 said:


> What about Absalon?


Finished 26th. He wrote sth about respiratory problems on his Instagram.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Koretzky had terrible luck last season. Ive had him as one of the ones to watch but the poor guy just kept flagging or breaking chains ect.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> Hopefully he'll do a full WC XCO calendar campaign this year. The US needs at least one elite male racer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks like he's doing 4 of the 7 this year.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

peabody said:


> Looks like he's doing 4 of the 7 this year.


Sounds like a great way to guarantee poor start position and moderate results.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

chilla13 said:


> Maybe I underestimated her. *Always thought she would be too much of a girlie type.* But that might have been wrong. ...


Jesus... really? Misogyny alive and well folks!


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

briscoelab said:


> Jesus... really? Misogyny alive and well folks!


It is certainly alive, but I don't think this is case for it.

Not sure why you brought up a deeper issue to the thread, when his statement is quite harmless and just an opinion of him. He even said that in spite of her results her opinion of her might have changed.

On the other hand is getting time to start our 2018 WC predictions, what are your predictions for the first WC?


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

1. Saying that he deemed a woman too "girlie" to do well in a MTB race is pretty much the definition of misogyny.

2. That statement isn't "quite harmless" and if you think that it is, then you're (likely unwittingly) part of the problem. It's demeaning and insulting.

3. Its everyone's job to call out bull$h!t when we see it. To do otherwise is to be part of the problem, not the solution.

Respect racers (and all women for that matter) for who they are, *not on some artificial construct of how you think/feel they should perform based on their looks.*

/rant off

Back to predictions. I'm excited for the first WC like everyone else. It's going to be hard to have this taste and then a big break. At least we have Cape Epic to watch as well.

I'm excited to see MvdP back in action on the MTB and WvA on the road here and there.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

TDLover said:


> On the other hand is getting time to start our 2018 WC predictions, what are your predictions for the first WC?


Not a prediction so much, but I am getting really pumped about watching the women's field battle it out. Some really strong contenders there.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

briscoelab said:


> 1. Saying that he deemed a woman too "girlie" to do well in a MTB race is pretty much the definition of misogyny.
> 
> 2. That statement isn't "quite harmless" and if you think that it is, then you're (likely unwittingly) part of the problem. It's demeaning and insulting.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Tells a lot about you when you are drawing a line between my naming of HG and her looks. I didn't even think about that. I was judging her based on her way to race. I have been racing the same races as HG in the last years (not in the womens class for obvious reasons) and watched her development. 
My usage of „girlie" was stupid, driven by testosterone, too manly: without reason...

WC XCO racing in 2018: assessment center for 2020 Olympics. A lot of younger riders have to prove that they are worthy of competing on international level. I'm expecting too see a lot of suicide pace.


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

When referring to a woman as "girlie" most are going to assume you mean either looks or actions/behavior. My "looks" comment is more to the general problem that this specific instance.

Saying someone behaves too "girlie" in the way they race is no less offensive or misogynistic than relating it to looks. It seems you understand that though. 

Back to the thread!


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

briscoelab said:


> Jesus... really? Misogyny alive and well folks!


Wow, wound a little tight aren't we...


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

briscoelab said:


> When referring to a woman as "girlie" most are going to assume you mean either looks or actions/behavior. My "looks" comment is more to the general problem that this specific instance.
> 
> Saying someone behaves too "girlie" in the way they race is no less offensive or misogynistic than relating it to looks. It seems you understand that though.
> 
> Back to the thread!


My last words on this: I do understand the philosophical argument but I am a non believer in that kind of constructivism that suggests that our reality is shaped by our words. Given that I am not very serious about my words. I didn't want to offend anybody and see how my bullshit talk was not very thoughtful.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

peabody said:


> Wow, wound a little tight aren't we...


Sounds like the right amount.



chilla13 said:


> My last words on this: I do understand the philosophical argument but I am a non believer in that kind of constructivism that suggests that our reality is shaped by our words. Given that I am not very serious about my words. I didn't want to offend anybody and see how my bullshit talk was not very thoughtful.


I think I understand your point, and falls more along how I feel about words themselves. Trapped in a world where people are assholes and fall back on the "it's just words defense", when their actions speak otherwise.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Since MvdP raced (and won) his last CX race this past weekend, I fear he may went too long into his CX season to be great for the WC XCO races this year. I'm sure he gets great start money to toe the line for CX. My fear is that after 60 minutes he'll start to fade since XCO races generally last 90 minutes.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Stonerider said:


> Since MvdP raced (and won) his last CX race this past weekend, I fear he may went too long into his CX season to be great for the WC XCO races this year. I'm sure he gets great start money to toe the line for CX. My fear is that after 60 minutes he'll start to fade since XCO races generally last 90 minutes.


Isn't winning a good sign that his fitness is so high he has managed to win all season long? I'm sure it's better than if he was fading going into the MTB season.

With XCO races now how the Short Track the day before which determines the start for the XCO, this should REALLY benefit MvdP. Short race, open course. He should be on the front like for the XCO if he feels like it. Some other top 10 XCO racers might have trouble getting to the front (like Absalon for example).

Attempting to race all year MTB XCO will probably be a challenge to stay on his game at high fitness. It will be exciting to watch.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

I also predict MVP won't have a stellar xc season. My take is that he will risk it all by going all out as we have seen before and snatches perhaps a couple of podiums, but nothing more. Or the other option I foresee is that he matures a bit and thinks in the very long term and actually rides for a top 20 finish in all WC's consistently.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

kevbikemad said:


> With XCO races now how the Short Track the day before which determines the start for the XCO, this should REALLY benefit MvdP. Short race, open course. He should be on the front like for the XCO if he feels like it. Some other top 10 XCO racers might have trouble getting to the front (like Absalon for example).
> 
> Attempting to race all year MTB XCO will probably be a challenge to stay on his game at high fitness. It will be exciting to watch.


I forgot about the short track race the day before. Yes that should definitely favor MvdP.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Stonerider said:


> I forgot about the short track race the day before. Yes that should definitely favor MvdP.


The more I think about it, adding the short track should really shake things up. Completely different race weekend routine. More to think/worry about. I think we will see a few different winners in Men's XCO.

I just hope Redbull covers the Short Track as well.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

kevbikemad said:


> The more I think about it, adding the short track should really shake things up. Completely different race weekend routine. More to think/worry about. I think we will see a few different winners in Men's XCO.
> 
> I just hope Redbull covers the Short Track as well.


I don't think the short track is going to change things very much all. Short track will only decide who starts on the first two rows. And other then a few exceptions those who place in the top 16 in XCO are also going to finish top 16 in a short track.

The only people who might get hurt by it are the poor starters. Being a strong starter is critical for short track and those who struggle to get off the line may end-up outside the top 16. But if you are a poor starter often starting a row back helps, having a wheel to follow can prevent you from going backwards.

In the women's field it might play a bigger role. Weights in the women field range from 45kg to 65kg. The smaller girls who can really climb, might struggle with speed the bigger girls can ride the flats at. We might see a situation where some non-climbers are starting at the front and creating some significant bottle necks early in the race.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LMN said:


> We might see a situation where some non-climbers are starting at the front and creating some significant bottle necks early in the race.


That is why I am thinking it might change things up a little bit. I don't think it will be all new podium finishers in the XCO, but I could see a bad short track/crash etc, then start in row 3 and get caught in a bottle neck... Might affect the larger men's field more?

I'm looking forward to it, as long as it's not just a 3 meter wide grass course with a log across it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> I don't think the short track is going to change things very much all. Short track will only decide who starts on the first two rows. And other then a few exceptions those who place in the top 16 in XCO are also going to finish top 16 in a short track.
> 
> The only people who might get hurt by it are the poor starters. Being a strong starter is critical for short track and those who struggle to get off the line may end-up outside the top 16. But if you are a poor starter often starting a row back helps, having a wheel to follow can prevent you from going backwards.
> 
> In the women's field it might play a bigger role. Weights in the women field range from 45kg to 65kg. The smaller girls who can really climb, might struggle with speed the bigger girls can ride the flats at. We might see a situation where some non-climbers are starting at the front and creating some significant bottle necks early in the race.


I'm guessing a guy like Absalon will actually be hurt by this.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Le Duke said:


> I'm guessing a guy like Absalon will actually be hurt by this.


Just discussed this yesterday with a friend. Poor julien might have a tough year but with his experience he might pull somthing out.

I don't think the over all order will change much but I think there is a lot of talented fast riders out there that just are not able to get the points needed (financial support to get to races ect) . This could give them a chance at a better start position and not get stuck in the bottleneck that often happens.


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## Rist (Oct 15, 2009)

Stellenbosch track preview at redbull.com - https://www.redbull.com/za-en/keeping it pinned stellenbosch xco track


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Been off social media last coupla days, just now back and first thing I see is fairly heart-wrenching confession by Jenny Rissveds on Insta. That she performed as well as she did, and in fact better than anyone, is incredible. She maintains she's not retiring. Many kind words from well-wishers.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I don't currently follow her, I need to add.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

In other news Simon also suffered some nasty crash in SA.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

In the positive section of the news today:
Neff's collar bone seems to be well enough to allow her to take a win at Chelva, Spain MTB race today. Wloszczowska took third. 
After today's race and after consulting her doctors, Jolanda decided that she will start in the first World Cup race next week in SA.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

rallymaniac said:


> In the positive section of the news today:
> Neff's collar bone seems to be well enough to allow her to take a win at Chelva, Spain MTB race today. Wloszczowska took third.
> After today's race and after consulting her doctors, Jolanda decided that she will start in the first World Cup race next week in SA.


Wow! Jolanda is tough. I hope she doesn't crash on that shoulder because I doubt it's fully healed yet.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Stonerider said:


> Since MvdP raced (and won) his last CX race this past weekend, I fear he may went too long into his CX season to be great for the WC XCO races this year. I'm sure he gets great start money to toe the line for CX. My fear is that after 60 minutes he'll start to fade since XCO races generally last 90 minutes.


Wout van Aert rode third in Strade Bianche (5h race) few days ago in a full pro tour pack.

He won't fade if he is in form, 15min won't do the difference, at his level you know what you can do for 60, 90 of 300mins.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Goran_injo said:


> Wout van Aert rode third in Strade Bianche (5h race) few days ago in a full pro tour pack.
> 
> He won't fade if he is in form, 15min won't do the difference, at his level you know what you can do for 60, 90 of 300mins.


Both MvdP and Wout are exceptional athletes. Wout did pull the plug on his CX season after winning worlds though so he could freshen up for the road racing season. MvdP extended his CX season another 3 weeks. We will see soon enough with MvdP...I can't wait to see it. Kudos to Redbull.TV!


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## superlightracer (Feb 11, 2004)

Hey folks,

Figured this would be the ideal thread to post this in.

Let's put our money where our mouths are. A free XCO fantasy league!

http://forums.mtbr.com/xc-racing-training/fantasy-online-xco-xcc-league-1070187.html#post13570329

I hope a few of you will sign up 

Do we assign LMN a handicap ?


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Looks like Absalon fractured his wrist in his latest crash and he "may" not start the WC XCO opener Saturday.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Redbull TV Schedule for this weekend.

Friday Morning's event is the "World Cup Chatter" - I was hoping we'd get to see the Short Track but I assume that this is Rob talking about how hard XC is Bart talking about root trees.

https://www.redbull.tv/live/AP-1U6PH6NCN1W11/mercedes-benz-uci-mountain-bike-world-cup


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

kevbikemad said:


> Redbull TV Schedule for this weekend.
> 
> Friday Morning's event is the "World Cup Chatter" - I was hoping we'd get to see the Short Track but I assume that this is Rob talking about how hard XC is Bart talking about root trees.
> 
> https://www.redbull.tv/live/AP-1U6PH6NCN1W11/mercedes-benz-uci-mountain-bike-world-cup


No short track this weekend. First short track is at the next rounds.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LMN said:


> No short track this weekend. First short track is at the next rounds.


Thanks. Hopefully lots of course preview then. Looks interesting.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I think I saw that Keegan Swanson was preriding the course on Strava the other day, so I guess he is racing.


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## forrest_m (May 26, 2015)

Goran_injo said:


> Wout van Aert rode third in Strade Bianche (5h race) few days ago in a full pro tour pack.
> 
> He won't fade if he is in form, 15min won't do the difference, at his level you know what you can do for 60, 90 of 300mins.


Was just about to post this myself, glad I read to the end of the thread first... can't see that 90 minutes vs 60 will trouble a top CXer like MvdP or WvA. Strade Bianche was a great race to watch, even if you don't usually follow road - CX world champion, up-and-coming classics specialist and TdF contender battling it out in the break.

I do agree that it seems unlikely that the top CXers can hold their form through the full XC (or road) season, my understanding is that WvA is hoping to hold his form through Roubaix but isn't sure he'll last that long.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

forrest_m said:


> Was just about to post this myself, glad I read to the end of the thread first... can't see that 90 minutes vs 60 will trouble a top CXer like MvdP or WvA.


I don't know. I think you get what you train for. The rest of the XCO field is spilling their guts out training for 90min or less events. Not that MVDP or WVA couldn't change gears and adapt, but I just don't think CX to XCO is a pound-for-pound conversion.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

superlightracer said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> Figured this would be the ideal thread to post this in.
> 
> ...


Saw that today. I'm all signed up. Great idea.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

winters.benjamin said:


> I don't know. I think you get what you train for. The rest of the XCO field is spilling their guts out training for 90min or less events. Not that MVDP or WVA couldn't change gears and adapt, but I just don't think CX to XCO is a pound-for-pound conversion.


90 vs 60 isn't a big deal. The difference between the two use to be all about the climb length, but on WC the climbs are so short that there really isn't that much of a difference.

A top level cross racer should be easily able to cross over, just as a top level MTBer could easily cross over. We see this in women's racing all the time, less often in the mens racing. Fontanta when he was going well on the MTB had a couple of CX world cups with very solid results. But he is really the only male high level MTBer to give CX racing slightest attempt in the past 10 years.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

LMN said:


> But he is really the only male high level MTBer to give CX racing slightest attempt in the past 10 years.


With the CX start fees I've heard rumors about, I wonder why more XCO men don't tap that market. I can understand not going for the whole season in order to save form for XCO, but I would think a well planned appearance or three could help with revenue.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Speaking of top level CX racers, I can't wait to see MvdP on his Canyon MTB. I'm surprised I haven't seen a spy photo on social media of him out training somewhere yet.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

winters.benjamin said:


> With the CX start fees I've heard rumors about, I wonder why more XCO men don't tap that market. I can understand not going for the whole season in order to save form for XCO, but I would think a well planned appearance or three could help with revenue.


I think it is because most know that having form for MTB and form for CX is a difficult ask.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> I think it is because most know that having form for MTB and form for CX is a difficult ask.


The only person I've seen that can be "in it to win it" from February to October is Alejandro Valverde. Which might be a result of his long association with Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes. And the fact that doping is now known to permanently change someone's physiology.

Even ol' Chris Froome gets his teeth kicked in for a few months out of the year. Because it's really, really hard to be GREAT for very long without falling off the edge.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

winters.benjamin said:


> With the CX start fees I've heard rumors about, I wonder why more XCO men don't tap that market. I can understand not going for the whole season in order to save form for XCO, but I would think a well planned appearance or three could help with revenue.


I can't see why a top level racers would, unless they absolutely loves it or needs the cash. I don't follow CX closely, but I think the Start Fees payment system may not going to last. Belgian cyclo-cross organisers push to scrap start money system | Cyclingnews.com

And there is just also the fatigue factor and thinking long term. For example Nino had a perfect XCO season last year. Even he made mention his form was not great by the end of the season / not feeling fresh at the world champs and he was worried.

Seeing top XC racers get injured in CX also makes me wonder whey they bother (Absalon, Prevot, Neff).


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

forrest_m said:


> Was just about to post this myself, glad I read to the end of the thread first... can't see that 90 minutes vs 60 will trouble a top CXer like MvdP or WvA. Strade Bianche was a great race to watch, even if you don't usually follow road - CX world champion, up-and-coming classics specialist and TdF contender battling it out in the break.
> 
> I do agree that it seems unlikely that the top CXers can hold their form through the full XC (or road) season, my understanding is that WvA is hoping to hold his form through Roubaix but isn't sure he'll last that long.


WvA power numbers were pretty humbling from that race. ~367watts normalized power... *for over 5 hours*.

Interesting that his average HR was in the low 170's as well. I think that shows he was seriously bleeding through his eyes most of the race. He is one tough cookie. This was confirmed in his epic cramp at the top of the final climb. I'm so glad he was able to hold on to the 3rd place finish.

Also striking how much bigger he is than Bardet and Benoot.

I love MvdP as well... he's exciting for sure. But WvA can win when it counts and is more strategic with his season and race tactics. VdP is all in, all the time and often explodes/falls to pieces.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There's a new 26 minute documentary on RedBull TV about Nino Schurter's career.

"N1NO Schurter - A Mountain Biker's Hunt for Glory"

This link is to the Bikerumor page that has an embedded video to play it: 

https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/03/0...rters-path-to-6-rainbow-jerseys-olympic-gold/

.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

All Nino, all the time today. Course preview with Nino on Pinkbike. There is gonna be some crashing.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/nino-...ner-xc-track-with-andrew-neethling-video.html

*Edit - And a photo epic of the course preview (less Nino content).
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/course-preview-stellenbosch-world-cup-xco-2018.html


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

briscoelab said:


> WvA power numbers were pretty humbling from that race. ~367watts normalized power... *for over 5 hours*.
> 
> Interesting that his average HR was in the low 170's as well. I think that shows he was seriously bleeding through his eyes most of the race. He is one tough cookie. This was confirmed in his epic cramp at the top of the final climb. I'm so glad he was able to hold on to the 3rd place finish.
> 
> ...


That's about 5watts/kg for 5 hours if I get my math right. Or, in layman's terms, pretty fcking hard.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

kevbikemad said:


> All Nino, all the time today. Course preview with Nino on Pinkbike. There is gonna be some crashing.
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/nino-...ner-xc-track-with-andrew-neethling-video.html
> 
> ...


Catharine is having some issues getting up to speed on the course. Tough to come out of winter and be thrown into the deep end right away.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

kevbikemad said:


> All Nino, all the time today. Course preview with Nino on Pinkbike. There is gonna be some crashing.


Hopefully nothing in the Simon Andressen style...

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## XCKiwi (Jan 26, 2010)

machine4321 said:


> Saw that today. I'm all signed up. Great idea.


I'm in too  LMN should definitely have a handicap! I won the last fantasy league I was in (a couple of years ago) by one point, to a guy I used to coach - we're having a race-within-the race rematch


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

XCKiwi said:


> I'm in too  LMN should definitely have a handicap! I won the last fantasy league I was in (a couple of years ago) by one point, to a guy I used to coach - we're having a race-within-the race rematch


I already have to change one of my picks. Yana is injured and not racing the first round.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LMN said:


> I already have to change one of my picks. Yana is injured and not racing the first round.


Wish you hadn't share this


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LMN said:


> Catharine is having some issues getting up to speed on the course. Tough to come out of winter and be thrown into the deep end right away.


So, you're not picking her? I did due to the technical.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Wow. Vander Poel.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LMN said:


> Wow. Vander Poel.


This has got to be a great opportunity for his first win, being so early in the year. Let's see what Nino does at the 1 hour mark.

Women's race was pretty long.


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## MudderNutter (Oct 23, 2014)

So is XC_Killer in this race? 


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

This looks like Sam Gaze race. Nino is throwing everything at him.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Wow!! Best race in years!!!


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Wow, that was amazing!


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## Dphoward (Jul 29, 2013)

Wow. So good!!!


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Both races were so very good. 

Almost zero screen time for any other battles in the men's race, but it was incredible.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

LMN said:


> Wow!! Best race in years!!!


+1

Loved that battle at the front. And excited to see what MVDP can do when he doesn't have to start so far back.

Also really cool to see PFP up front with Annika, and the fight for 4th was super cool as well.

Going to be a great season to watch.


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

No we did not go to race. Our first wc is in Albstadt. 

LMN
I am just wondering what you now think about low cadence/high force pedaling? And about standing and riding up the hill. Especially in women category today you could see a lot of low cadence work. And in men categor almost every start of the hill is standing. We maybe dont have the same thinking, but I think that you have big disadvantage about low cadence work. It is not crucial part but it is important.

For men obviously is important to be fast, strong, and abbility downhill and riding standing up.

Btw, I would like to congrats on Ctaherine results. Extraordinary. Congratulations


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

XC_killer said:


> No we did not go to race. Our first wc is in Albstadt.
> 
> LMN
> I am just wondering what you now think about low cadence/high force pedaling? And about standing and riding up the hill. Especially in women category today you could see a lot of low cadence work. And in men categor almost every start of the hill is standing. We maybe dont have the same thinking, but I think that you have big disadvantage about low cadence work. It is not crucial part but it is important.
> ...


Thank you. Catharine was quite happy with that race. With rough end of the season last year she didn't have a lot confidence coming into this race. The goal was to be able to contend for a podium spot, which she did.

Here is a snap shot of Catharine cadence for a lap today:

As you can see the cadence are actually pretty high. There is very few low cadence (below 70) extended periods. There are times of low cadence but they don't last very long.

The climbs were not constant efforts at 50-60rpm. They were acceleration from low RPM to normal RPM. I am a big fan of big gear accelerations. But sustained low cadence climbing I still maintain that it is not necessary or benifical.

What I saw today was steep punchy single track climbs. The best way to train for those is with steep punchy single track climbs. Why artificially try and mimic on the road when you can do the real thing?


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

Maybe you did nit understand me 
I dont train them on flat or normal hill. But on big punchy hill together with change in cadence. Maybe you are looking always training of Catherine. Today I saw her overtaking few girls with bigger cadence. In that way you could say that she is good in high cadence. But rest of girls had a lot of tima in low cadence. When I say lot I mean 5-10seconds in one hill. 

But nevertheless if you wont to be good xco rider you need to have fast and strong legs. Fast mean that you can spin on part od track where you can spinn and strong to have power on part where you can not spinn.

Also this short track will influence on strategy, training, tactics, but right now I dont know how. I am waitting to see what will happen.


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## pemberton325 (May 13, 2009)

I saw a lot of droppers out there! Makes me want to put one on my hardtail.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

*Incredible race*



winters.benjamin said:


> +1
> 
> Loved that battle at the front. And excited to see what MVDP can do when he doesn't have to start so far back.
> 
> ...


Remember Gaze started in 30th.
It's great for the sport, to see Ninos run come to an end. Go Sam & Anton!
We're proud Kiwis today.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

It would have been even more exciting had Nino's shoe not clip out. It looked like he was coming back to Sam and they were almost even when he unclipped.


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## XCKiwi (Jan 26, 2010)

LMN said:


> Thank you. Catharine was quite happy with that race. With rough end of the season last year she didn't have a lot confidence coming into this race. The goal was to be able to contend for a podium spot, which she did.
> 
> Here is a snap shot of Catharine cadence for a lap today:
> 
> ...


I wish I'd had a graphic like that to show my riders when they complained about high cadence efforts and asked what the point of them is. I'm going to hang on to it just in case I start taking riders on again!

Proud Kiwi today. Looking forward to seeing if our boys can make it a clean sweep in April after Ben's PB result too - extra stoked I'm going to be track-side!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

That was a pair of really good races.
Go the Kiwi's! 

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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

Stoked for Sam, fantastic result.
Wonder if Anton suffered for being on a hardtail in those slippery conditions. 


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

I see that Emily Batty posted that she got clotheslined by the second row tape and the whole second row was being fined for ducking under the tape, but I just re-watched the callup and someone was saying go go go and the tape got lifted and then lowered again and everybody got stopped. I imagine there will be an interesting story behind that.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Great races today. I like Nino but for the sake of the sport someone else needed to win to spice things up. MvdP had a great start but faded a little at the end as I thought he would. He had to be fatigued from winning 30+ CX races this winter. I hope he can recharge his batteries and come out full force before the next XCO World Cup race in May because it would be great to see him at the front fighting for the win with Nino, Sam and whoever else can take it up a notch.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Stonerider said:


> Great races today. I like Nino but for the sake of the sport someone else needed to win to spice things up. MvdP had a great start but faded a little at the end as I thought he would. He had to be fatigued from winning 30+ CX races this winter. I hope he can recharge his batteries and come out full force before the next XCO World Cup race in May because it would be great to see him at the front fighting for the win with Nino, Sam and whoever else can take it up a notch.


If MvdP take a month off then his form is likely going to be quite suspect in May, however come July, August and September watch out.

I am curious if Sam can perform as the season progresses. The Kiwi's should be going really good right now (and obviously they are crushing it). But the challenge for those on the souther continents is maintaining form through the northern summer.

And this course was a big power rider course. There was not sustained climbs on it, it was more a series of short sharp steep climbs. As eliminator world champion the course obviously suited Sam. The other course on the circuit are different.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

LMN said:


> If MvdP take a month off then his form is likely going to be quite suspect in May, however come July, August and September watch out.
> 
> I am curious if Sam can perform as the season progresses. The Kiwi's should be going really good right now (and obviously they are crushing it). But the challenge for those on the souther continents is maintaining form through the northern summer.
> 
> And this course was a big power rider course. There was not sustained climbs on it, it was more a series of short sharp steep climbs. As eliminator world champion the course obviously suited Sam. The other course on the circuit are different.


That's right. And the other thing that no has talked about is that Gaze and Cooper are approaching a major season peak, with the Commonwealth games in April.
Nonetheless, such a mature race today from Gaze. The way he played it was exemplary, especially with cramp setting in. How about that attack on the last steep climb! Impressive from Nino to stay with him there. But Sam just looked so smooth, and Nino couldn't take him in the following technical section.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

madfella said:


> That's right. And the other thing that no has talked about is that Gaze and Cooper are approaching a major season peak, with the Commonwealth games in April.
> Nonetheless, such a mature race today from Gaze. The way he played it was exemplary, especially with cramp setting in. How about that attack on the last steep climb! Impressive from Nino to stay with him there. But Sam just looked so smooth, and Nino couldn't take him in the following technical section.


I don't know if it would be a major peak for those guys. As a Canadian, I hate to say it but there isn't anyone in commonwealth who could touch those guys even if they are a bit off form. I am hoping to get a couple of guys there in a year or two, but right now they are not there.

Often the big guns don't bring their A games to minor games like the Panamericans or Commonweath. I know in 2014 Catharine trained right through the commonwealth games, still won, but was not at top form. That top form came 8 weeks later when she won worlds.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

LMN said:


> Often the big guns don't bring their A games to *minor* games like the Panamericans or Commonweath.


Hahaha, I don't know what it's like over there, but here in OZ, in the media, you'd think the CommGames were more important than the Olympics.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

mik_git said:


> Hahaha, I don't know what it's like over there, but here in OZ, in the media, you'd think the CommGames were more important than the Olympics.


Yes, mik_git is quite right. The Commonwealth games are hugely important for us Kiwis, and Sam has said it himself, that is the first peak (and I suspect the most important), and the Worlds later in the year is the second peak.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

madfella said:


> Yes, mik_git is quite right. The Commonwealth games are hugely important for us Kiwis, and Sam has said it himself, that is the first peak (and I suspect the most important), and the Worlds later in the year is the second peak.


Interesting. In Canada the Commonwealth really aren't a big deal. Catharine actually declined her spot to let a development rider go.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

Where do you guys watch the races?


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## MudderNutter (Oct 23, 2014)

j102 said:


> Where do you guys watch the races?


Red Bull tv

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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

MudderNutter said:


> Red Bull tv
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And bloody lucky we are too!


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

LMN said:


> Interesting. In Canada the Commonwealth really aren't a big deal. Catharine actually declined her spot to let a development rider go.


I think,for us, while we do well at Olympics in a lot of sports, when it comes to Comgames we kinda win at a lot of sports (think swimming), so, since we win, then it's important, no matter that 3/4 of the rest of the world isn't there.

But I think, as a country, we're weird about sports like that


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

I have to be honest here, I think Nino pulled his foot. Ive watched it over and over and it seems to me that with the amount of power he would have been putting out, I would imagine that pedal slip should have been almost catastrophic. 

Ive seen him add some drama in the years past, world champs comes to mind when Absalon picked him apart. He had a crash on the last lap and really milked it coming across the line. I think it's hard for him to lose when he is giving it 100%. He has no problem loosing a race that isn't important to him.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

machine4321 said:


> I have to be honest here, I think Nino pulled his foot. Ive watched it over and over and it seems to me that with the amount of power he would have been putting out, I would imagine that pedal slip should have been almost catastrophic.
> 
> Ive seen him add some drama in the years past, world champs comes to mind when Absalon picked him apart. He had a crash on the last lap and really milked it coming across the line. I think it's hard for him to lose when he is giving it 100%. He has no problem loosing a race that isn't important to him.


 Funny, I thought the same thing, looked like he unclipped on purpose.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

MudderNutter said:


> Red Bull tv
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Interesting race, both men and women race. 

From the women race I can see it will be a close fight for the xco podiums. With the short track happening we will see the woman field in complete disarray. Having said that I think Jolanda will dominate the short track effectively taking half the points of the overall season, with those points it will be enough to be a top contender for the overal title for sure. 

Sadly, I see riders like Catherine, Maja, Batty, Yana suffering a lot from the new addition of the short track, affecting their starting position in the xco race and losing points as well. 



In the men race, some worthy remarks are MVP actually finishing the race and taking things in a more consistent way. If he rides like today I see him being in top 10 in each WC, maybe not many podiums, but he will be up there. 

The battle between Sam and Nino was fun, I think Sam was just testing Nino in that last lap sprint when they both went all out, just starting last lap (not the final sprint). It is clear that Sam has the upper hand in raw power, but at that point of the race its difficult to tell. At that precise moment Sam knew he could outsprint nino at the finish line, if Nino had surpassed Sam in that sprint attack I think Sam would had conceded the first place right there. 

However, as many have alluded Sam probably is on his best and will be hard to repeat such performances in other WC's during the season, which means it will be hard for overall title contenders to dispute Nino's domination. Even if he routinely places 2nd or 3rd, I doubt there will be a 1st place contender in each race throughout the season.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Rivet said:


> Funny, I thought the same thing, looked like he unclipped on purpose.


As for Nino unclipping on purpose, I'm not sure, I did find it odd it had no repercussion though.

I have unclipped before when sprinting at max and yeah, it doesn't end well, my leg got caught on the crank and flipped over, luckily I escaped unscathed.

However, there is a difference between sprinting at maximum and doing the same at the finish line when you are totally exhausted, you could see they were pretty drained and the actual sprint happened on the ramp, the second sprint to the finish line was secondary and seemed like not much watts from either guy.

I did see that particular move like 5 times as well, but couldn't imply much, would need to look it at a frame per frame.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

TDLover said:


> I have unclipped before when sprinting at max and yeah, it doesn't end well, my leg got caught on the crank and flipped over, luckily I escaped unscathed.


+1, in fact if I unclip accidentally it's usually under serious strain since my pedals are locked down pretty tight. Whether on a sprint or trying to force-correct a bad line choice, unclipping means I'm going down. But it should be noted that Nino is light-years beyond my bike handling abilities and so it's not for me to extrapolate my experiences on to him.


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## XCKiwi (Jan 26, 2010)

I don't think there is much doubt that Sam is at his best right now. That doesn't mean he can't repeat it, or that he can't get even better. But I have no doubt he came in to this race with everything working in his favour - he loves his annual training camp over there and has twice missed national champs to go to it because he gets so much out of it. To race a world cup immediately after it, in the same place, is ideal.

Our race season here doesn't necessarily put our riders in the great form you might think - it's incredibly limited, few races with small fields. This year there were 2 national level races apart from national champs and Oceanias. There isn't a lot of travel between NZ and Aus in either direction except for Oce's.

Our guys will be hugely motivated for Comm Games. We have 3, and all are a chance for a medal. We could realistically clean sweep the podium! And Sam will be more than keen to graduate from silver to gold (while Anton will be equally as keen to get one up on Sam again). I think the Aussies have been a bit foolish in selecting only one male and one female at home (but it's probably a situation of their own creation after their botched worlds selection debacle).

Re Nino's pedal slip - I also wondered if it was deliberate as it did look quite controlled. Not too impressed with his display of anger and not taking a moment to congratulate Sam either. I'm sure he made up for it later but it wasn't a good look and I just expected he would be quick to shake the hand of the guy who broke his winning streak.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

XCKiwi said:


> I'm sure he made up for it later but it wasn't a good look and I just expected he would be quick to shake the hand of the guy who broke his winning streak.


In fairness to Nino, he just turned himself inside out for 90 minutes. When I am in a similar state, showing kindness even to those I love (like my kids) is a tough ask.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

TDLover said:


> Interesting race, both men and women race.
> 
> From the women race I can see it will be a close fight for the xco podiums. With the short track happening we will see the woman field in complete disarray. Having said that I think Jolanda will dominate the short track effectively taking half the points of the overall season, with those points it will be enough to be a top contender for the overal title for sure.
> 
> Sadly, I see riders like Catherine, Maja, Batty, Yana suffering a lot from the new addition of the short track, affecting their starting position in the xco race and losing points as well.


I think it is going to be other girls winning short tracks. There are a couple of girls who have incredible early pace and are really good sprinters. I think Indigrand and Lechner are going to be very good at short track. For north american's Woodriff is always good at short tracks and is packing some really good form right now.

As you can see from the point distribution below getting top 3 in an XCC is a big deal, but after that there isn't a huge point change.

Interesting fact, the riders have to race the same bike in the XCO as they used in the XCC. And there is a minimum tire width of 45mm for the XCC.

XCO XCC
1 250 125 
2 200 100 
3 160 80 
4 150 75 
5 140 70 
6 130 65 
7 120 60 
8 110 55 
9 100 50 
10 95 45 
11 90 40 
12 85 35 
13 80 30 
14 78 29 
15 76 28 
16 74 27


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Decent showing for Howard Grotts, 21st. His Instagram says he crashed on first lap too.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

If you have Instagram @Scottmtbracing has a good slow motion vid with a great angle to see Nino's pedal mishap.

__
http://instagr.am/p/BgJdOh-lmTF/


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Looks like Nino was making up ground pretty fast up to that point....


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Beautiful photos from the race are up on Pinkbike: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/race-photo-epic-stellenbosch-world-cup-xco-2018.html


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

winters.benjamin said:


> Looks like Nino was making up ground pretty fast up to that point....


How can one possibly tell that Nino was making up ground fast from that footage?
Rob and Bart were both there, and they commented after the race on RBTV that it wouldn't have made any difference to the final outcome. And remember, Sam beat Nino twice last year, one of those times being in a sprint finish in the US.

Not very professional imo Scott posting that vid with the implication that if Nino had not unclipped he would have won. Sam had positioned himself better than Nino with 100m to go, and deserved to win - simple.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

madfella said:


> Not very professional imo Scott posting that vid with the implication that if Nino had not unclipped he would have won. Sam had positioned himself better than Nino with 100m to go, and deserved to win - simple.


Bleh, that is what brands do, stand up to their riders. On the other hand, Nino also posted the same video in his timeline and he congratulated Sam on his win, so all is good I guess.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BgJeHS4BMJW/


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## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

Is MvDP using 140mm discs????


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

XCKiwi said:


> Re Nino's pedal slip - I also wondered if it was deliberate as it did look quite controlled. Not too impressed with his display of anger and not taking a moment to congratulate Sam either. I'm sure he made up for it later but it wasn't a good look and I just expected he would be quick to shake the hand of the guy who broke his winning streak.


This ^^

Within a split second of seeing the footage I suspected Nino knew he couldn't catch Sam & threw a shoe on purpose.

There's always the possibility of a freak, one off...

But, I'm definitely in the prior camp.

'We'll all make it to the top... Some of us, might not make it to the bottom'


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

machine4321 said:


> I have to be honest here, I think Nino pulled his foot. Ive watched it over and over and it seems to me that with the amount of power he would have been putting out, I would imagine that pedal slip should have been almost catastrophic.


Peter Sagan unclipped during an all out sprint finish and clipped back in and still won, good riders are talented.

I suppose it's possible but I just can't imagine him doing that purposely.


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## rocdog (Oct 26, 2005)

Has anyone heard if Nino, Sam and/or Cooper will be racing Sea Otter next month?


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## Doingitright (Jan 9, 2014)

winters.benjamin said:


> Looks like Nino was making up ground pretty fast up to that point....


I agree. While brief you can see gains. Sam was thrashing his bike. Clutching his hamstring at the end suggest he was hitting a wall.

But great to see Sam win nonetheless.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Doingitright said:


> I agree. While brief you can see gains. Sam was thrashing his bike. Clutching his hamstring at the end suggest he was hitting a wall.
> 
> But great to see Sam win nonetheless.


I like NIno but I think just about everyone except his mother was pulling for Sam during that sprint. I've watched a lot of road racing and that front camera shot always distorts the view and shortens the distance between riders, I think Gaze had him beat all the way and Nino's unclipping didn't change the outcome one way or another.

It was great to see someone finally dethrone Nino, if only temporarily, and even better that it's a young rider.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

A different angle on the Nino/Sam sprint

__
http://instagr.am/p/BgJn5PvDko3/


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

From that angle, it appeared Sam had at least a bike length on him and might have been pulling away. Even if he didn’t pull out of his pedal, I’m doubting Nino would haul him in before the line. 


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Also, looks like Sam is handy in a mass sprint on the road, too.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BgMBwgCj4__/

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> From that angle, it appeared Sam had at least a bike length on him and might have been pulling away. Even if he didn't pull out of his pedal, I'm doubting Nino would haul him in before the line.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed. I don't think anybody was coming around Sam there.

Nino's mistake was letting it come to that sprint. He was one who needed to be attacking and sprinting up the last climb. Head to head in a sprint I think Sam will get him every time.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

LMN said:


> Agreed. I don't think anybody was coming around Sam there.
> 
> Nino's mistake was letting it come to that sprint. He was one who needed to be attacking and sprinting up the last climb. Head to head in a sprint I think Sam will get him every time.


Spot on. In the last 2 kilometres of the race Nino threw the kitchen sink at Sam to try to get to the sprint first. That was truly fascinating to watch.

NZ's greatest sporting moment!


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## m3bas (Dec 24, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> I like NIno but I think just about everyone except his mother was pulling for Sam during that sprint. I've watched a lot of road racing and that front camera shot always distorts the view and shortens the distance between riders, I think Gaze had him beat all the way and Nino's unclipping didn't change the outcome one way or another.
> 
> It was great to see someone finally dethrone Nino, if only temporarily, and even better that it's a young rider.


I'm so used to watching road finishes I was waiting for the overhead sprint shot after the finish!
Agree the camera angle from the front often makes it look a lot closer than it actually is.


----------



## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

m3bas said:


> I'm so used to watching road finishes I was waiting for the overhead sprint shot after the finish!
> Agree the camera angle from the front often makes it look a lot closer than it actually is.


Putting aside speculation about possible outcomes for a minute...

Damn. What an impressive effort. Whatever shot you look at, Sam is just pouring it out. That's some inspiring stuff right there.


----------



## grawp (Apr 22, 2012)

Nino's mistake was letting Sam through before the dusty corner into that steep climb. He then spent the rest of the lap trying to get past.
So happy to finally watch a proper race. Nino should be grateful as we were all losing interest in the sport. Having him beaten and a little grumpy afterwards is probably a better representation of a driven athlete than the constant uber calm demeanour he usually shows.
Great day for xc.
Women’s race was fantastic as usual.


----------



## pamoreira (Jan 6, 2016)

Not sure if it was mentioned already, but PFP actually had a mechanical (rear derailleur hanger bent according to her FB) and had to briefly stop at lap 5. Missed that during the broadcast and also why Langvad suddenly caught and jumped in front of her.
Langvad always looked stronger but PFP is in fine shape and ridding superbly - she got her mojo back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

pamoreira said:


> Not sure if it was mentioned already, but PFP actually had a mechanical (rear derailleur hanger bent according to her FB) and had to briefly stop at lap 5. Missed that during the broadcast and also why Langvad suddenly caught and jumped in front of her.
> Langvad always looked stronger but PFP is in fine shape and ridding superbly - she got her mojo back.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Wow ok that makes sense now. I was wondering how Langvad flipped that time deficit so quickly.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

LMN said:


> Interesting fact, the riders have to race the same bike in the XCO as they used in the XCC. And there is a minimum tire width of 45mm for the XCC.


That's awesome! It'll be interesting to see if it changes any equipment choices if riders are debating running a fully versus a hardtail. I'm guessing the 1+ pound lighter hardtail would be an advantage on the short track XCC race.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

grawp said:


> Nino should be grateful as we were all losing interest in the sport.


We were?


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## Feideaux (Jan 14, 2004)

rockyuphill said:


> I see that Emily Batty posted that she got clotheslined by the second row tape and the whole second row was being fined for ducking under the tape, but I just re-watched the callup and someone was saying go go go and the tape got lifted and then lowered again and everybody got stopped. I imagine there will be an interesting story behind that.


I also re-watched it as I noticed something happening during the live feed. No one got clotheslined. At least not by tape.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but the person who lifted the tape was Simon Burney, the MTB coodinator for the UCI. It appears it's usually his job to wind up the tape once the front row has been called so the second row can move forward. I know this because of the inordinate amount of screen time he seems to get at every UCI XCO event. He seems to micromanage things a bit, IMO.

The difference this time was that he was lifting it to let a coach/umbrella person out of the area and *some* of the riders - who were all looking straight down the track - saw the tape move, mistook it as go time, and lurched forward. They all appear to stop when he shouts "Whoa whoa whoa whoa - go back."

The unfortunate part of all this is that Burney appears to physically apprehend two of the riders: pushes on Kalientieva's upper chest and places his hand over or grabs near the throat of Emily Batty. Not sure why his job entails standing in-front of 60 odd riders, but if he feels the needs to be physical, perhaps his system needs some revision. I have similar thoughts when watching him corral riders out of the finishing area.

It's at 18mins 12 seconds on the Redbull replay.


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## Thatshowiroll (Jan 30, 2009)

Feideaux said:


> The unfortunate part of all this is that Burney appears to physically apprehend two of the riders: pushes on Kalientieva's upper chest and places his hand over or grabs near the throat of Emily Batty.


Emily says she hurt her throat getting clotheslined. Maybe it was this fella who did it and not the tape.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mik_git said:


> We were?


I was, the results were just too predictable.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Feideaux said:


> I also re-watched it as I noticed something happening during the live feed. No one got clotheslined. At least not by tape.
> 
> Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but the person who lifted the tape was Simon Burney, the MTB coodinator for the UCI. It appears it's usually his job to wind up the tape once the front row has been called so the second row can move forward. I know this because of the inordinate amount of screen time he seems to get at every UCI XCO event. He seems to micromanage things a bit, IMO.
> 
> ...


Ok, I saw the replay many times and you gotta be looking for trouble if you say Simon hurt or went physical on riders. He barely touches them, these girls are doing xco racing in a super hard track and a innocent touch suddenly hurts you? Everyone made it seem like he did it on purpose, while the replay just shows he had his arms extended without looking were they were.

Geez, people are super sensible nowadays.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Feideaux said:


> I also re-watched it as I noticed something happening during the live feed. No one got clotheslined. At least not by tape.
> 
> Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but the person who lifted the tape was Simon Burney, the MTB coodinator for the UCI. It appears it's usually his job to wind up the tape once the front row has been called so the second row can move forward. I know this because of the inordinate amount of screen time he seems to get at every UCI XCO event. He seems to micromanage things a bit, IMO.
> 
> ...


Simon respects, and is very much respected by all the riders in the field. What you are describing is not how things unfolded.


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## Feideaux (Jan 14, 2004)

LMN said:


> Simon respects, and is very much respected by all the riders in the field. What you are describing is not how things unfolded.


I totally believe that he is a well respected person by athletes, and that he values this respect. His involvement in the sport as a manager spans decades.

Not sure why this disqualifies actual video footage of him lifting the tape and pushing athletes back, however.

I'll write it again so the actual point of my post is clear: if a technical manager needs to lay hands on someone to do their job, then they need to change the way they do their job. Coaches, physio, masseurs, I can understand. But not this.


----------



## Feideaux (Jan 14, 2004)

TDLover said:


> Ok, I saw the replay many times and you gotta be looking for trouble if you say Simon hurt or went physical on riders. He barely touches them, these girls are doing xco racing in a super hard track and a innocent touch suddenly hurts you? Everyone made it seem like he did it on purpose, while the replay just shows he had his arms extended without looking were they were.
> 
> Geez, people are super sensible nowadays.


Agree 100% on all your points. The situation happened too quickly for their to be *any* thought behind what he was doing. Maybe, 'physically apprehend' were the wrong words to use. Should have just written 'push.'

I find it interesting that conjecture over Nino's pedal slip has more support on this board than Emily Batty's personal statement of her experience.


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## XCKiwi (Jan 26, 2010)

Seeing that new angle of the finish sprint, Nino looked surprised when his foot came out. The first thing I said when I saw it at the time was it's either poor technique (unlikely, but being pushed harder than he has ever been could result in it), deliberate, or poor maintenance/equipment. If it wasn't deliberate then to me, that footage supports equipment failure. I definitely don't think it made a difference to the result, but it's always annoying when there is so much debate and speculation around a race outcome.


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Feideaux said:


> Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but the person who lifted the tape was Simon Burney, the MTB coodinator for the UCI. It appears it's usually his job to wind up the tape once the front row has been called so the second row can move forward. I know this because of the inordinate amount of screen time he seems to get at every UCI XCO event. He seems to micromanage things a bit, IMO.
> 
> The difference this time was that he was lifting it to let a coach/umbrella person out of the area and *some* of the riders - who were all looking straight down the track - saw the tape move, mistook it as go time, and lurched forward. They all appear to stop when he shouts "Whoa whoa whoa whoa - go back."
> 
> The unfortunate part of all this is that Burney appears to physically apprehend two of the riders: pushes on Kalientieva's upper chest and places his hand over or grabs near the throat of Emily Batty. Not sure why his job entails standing in-front of 60 odd riders, but if he feels the needs to be physical, perhaps his system needs some revision. I have similar thoughts when watching him corral riders out of the finishing area.


I think the real mistake is actually allowing team staff in the pen with the racers. That is what actually caused the confusion. These racers should know you don't move until the tape is down. Our local races you don't move until the commi say so.

The men's start seems to have no staff actually in the pen and the second row moves forward once the tape is removed. Way more orderly.

And we also don't know all the pre-race meetings/instructions that have gone on. If the racers were not listening or did not follow previous instructions.

Simon probably should not actually physically touch them, but it was a quick reaction, I highly doubt he did any physical harm. If he did hurt Batty, she should have fallen over like a football player to draw attention to it.

At the end of the day, I think it had zero effect on the race results. They should all just say sorry about that and move on.


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## XCKiwi (Jan 26, 2010)

Feideaux said:


> Agree 100% on all your points. The situation happened too quickly for their to be *any* thought behind what he was doing. Maybe, 'physically apprehend' were the wrong words to use. Should have just written 'push.'
> 
> I find it interesting that conjecture over Nino's pedal slip has more support on this board than Emily Batty's personal statement of her experience.


'Physically apprehend' is a HUGE exaggeration! Even 'push' is questionable. I don't see any force. If anyone gets hurt from that they need a bone density scan STAT!

The idea that Simon micro manages in his role, and that that is a negative thing, is equally unfair. It is impossible to convey the amount of work that goes in to getting these things right, and all of the requirements that are being met while he is getting his 'inordinate amount of screen time', as you put it. My guess is that at least one priority at the time this happened is keeping the space behind the front row clear for the cameras during call up. He's not there to get on camera!

You point it out yourself that he is at every race, and it's not just XCO. And yet how often does does anything go wrong? (I've known him to overestimate how fast a track is drying out and give the women too many laps, one time, a few years back.)

Also notice that the person who started lifting the tape was not an official, but team support, coming from at least the 3rd row. I have to wonder if he could have managed to get out by going to the back (I know it's tricky getting around the bars, and I've never been that far up with a rider, but I would aim to go to the side then back).

These little things happen from time to time. It's round one and everyone is ready to hit the gas, but it's their job to stay calm.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

rocdog said:


> Has anyone heard if Nino, Sam and/or Cooper will be racing Sea Otter next month?


Don't think Nino will be there, if his calendar is complete/accurate:
https://nsracing.ch/racing-calendar/?lang=en


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

mik_git said:


> We were?


I'm used to hearing that same thing in MotoGp too, especially during the "Alien" years. I never got bored of watching, even when it was obvious who was going to win. Watching the talent level of a top athlete, particularly in a sport you take semi serious yourself, is always incredible to watch.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

LMN said:


> Agreed. I don't think anybody was coming around Sam there.
> 
> Nino's mistake was letting it come to that sprint. He was one who needed to be attacking and sprinting up the last climb. Head to head in a sprint I think Sam will get him every time.


100% agreed. This shows me that Nino was holding on after all of Sam's tests. What no one is talking about is the move that Sam put on him up that final bridge. That was a fantastic surge which IMO set him up for the Sprint win on the final straight. Nino wasn't coming around, and in real time it sure look like he got defeated and chose to not complete the sprint. Could have even cost him 2nd.

I also do not respect the way he handled his instagram campaign or the congratulations after the race and on social media. Poor sportsmanship abound. It would have been better to keep quiet and let other people just sit and speculate and debate on the internet.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

winters.benjamin said:


> Wow ok that makes sense now. I was wondering how Langvad flipped that time deficit so quickly.


the Camera work and broadcast of the women's race was Horrendous. Like a middle school football game. Why the stark contrast between this and the Men's race when the womens races have been much much better over the past year.



mik_git said:


> We were?


I watched all the womens and maybe 2-3 of the Men's races last year. Its like watching anyone vs the GS Warriors in the divisional playoffs


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## Feideaux (Jan 14, 2004)

XCKiwi said:


> 'Physically apprehend' is a HUGE exaggeration! Even 'push' is questionable. I don't see any force. If anyone gets hurt from that they need a bone density scan STAT!
> 
> The idea that Simon micro manages in his role, and that that is a negative thing, is equally unfair. It is impossible to convey the amount of work that goes in to getting these things right, and all of the requirements that are being met while he is getting his 'inordinate amount of screen time', as you put it. My guess is that at least one priority at the time this happened is keeping the space behind the front row clear for the cameras during call up. He's not there to get on camera!
> 
> ...


Fair points, well made.

Looking forward to Batty's considered perspective being published.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Joe Handlebar said:


> Is MvDP using 140mm discs????


140mm XTR discs have four spokes. Those are 160mm discs.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

arnea said:


> those are *16*mm discs.


fvck!!!

:d


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

XCKiwi said:


> Seeing that new angle of the finish sprint, Nino looked surprised when his foot came out. The first thing I said when I saw it at the time was it's either poor technique (unlikely, but being pushed harder than he has ever been could result in it), deliberate, or poor maintenance/equipment. If it wasn't deliberate then to me, that footage supports equipment failure. I definitely don't think it made a difference to the result, but it's always annoying when there is so much debate and speculation around a race outcome.


On the last couple pedal strokes you can see his heel starting to drift out into unclip land. Whether this is from extreme up stroke or not I dont know as I still cant pull up and push with the other leg on a hard sprint and have any smoothness but I am nothing compared to these guys. I just didnt look natural to me. Hes an extremely driven competitor, doesnt mind losing a race if it isnt an important one, but if he wants to win and cant, we see a different side of him (understandably as its what makes him so good).


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## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

Sidewalk said:


> fvck!!!
> 
> :d


:lol:


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## frank6262 (Oct 9, 2006)

i tht i heard there was some side footage of the Nino/Sam sprint???


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## grawp (Apr 22, 2012)

I don’t know why everybody is making such a big deal about it. Part of racing is not crashing or pulling your foot out of the peddle at the wrong moment. He messed up during a desperate sprint and unclipped. As pointed out, Sagan did it on the road, so professionals can make mistakes too. Doesn’t matter whether he was coming past or not, he muffed it and that’s fine. He got beaten by a great competitor and we all enjoyed watching it and screaming for our favourite. It’s a win for the sport. Bet he comes out flying next round.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

grawp said:


> I don't know why everybody is making such a big deal about it.


I can't speak for everyone else, but my passion for cycling spills out in many ways: training, buying shiny toys, overanalyzing pro racing (and maybe living in a partial fantasy that maaaaybe I can one day hit those numbers) and obsessing about gear. Not that it's going to make the sun rise tomorrow or somehow make my interval sessions any easier, but I love speculating about the what-ifs and what-for in racing scenarios.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

grawp said:


> I don't know why everybody is making such a big deal about it. Part of racing is not crashing or pulling your foot out of the peddle at the wrong moment. He messed up during a desperate sprint and unclipped. As pointed out, Sagan did it on the road, so professionals can make mistakes too. Doesn't matter whether he was coming past or not, he muffed it and that's fine. He got beaten by a great competitor and we all enjoyed watching it and screaming for our favourite. It's a win for the sport. Bet he comes out flying next round.


Agreed, I guess what is bugging me is that, instead of saying "Gaze beat me" Nino gets to say " "I would have had him if my pedal didn't slip". Not saying he's a poor sport or anything but as a competitor myself I always give credit to the faster rider.

Like you said it happened either way so whether he pulled it or it just happened doesn't really matter. As much as we all love Nino as an athlete, I'm glad someone beat him. Hopefully these battles continue!


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

machine4321 said:


> Agreed, I guess what is bugging me is that, instead of saying "Gaze beat me" Nino gets to say " "I would have had him if my pedal didn't slip".


Where does he actually say that? On his Instagram he says (and this is an actual quote, which is the proper use of quotation marks): "This time good luck wasn't on my side. Congrats to @samuelgaze for an amazing performance."


__
http://instagr.am/p/BgJeHS4BMJW/


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## rocdog (Oct 26, 2005)

MattMay said:


> Don't think Nino will be there, if his calendar is complete/accurate:
> https://nsracing.ch/racing-calendar/?lang=en


Bummer! I was hoping to see a rematch live in person. Looks like I will have to wait until May and back to Redbull TV.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

MattMay said:


> Where does he actually say that? On his Instagram he says (and this is an actual quote, which is the proper use of quotation marks): "This time good luck wasn't on my side. Congrats to @samuelgaze for an amazing performance."
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BgJeHS4BMJW/


Come on man, That's exactly what that is. Its a lame underhanded way of saying he was unlucky and he lost because of the pedal slip.

He 
1. had terrible strategy on the last lap that backfired and he can only blame himself
2. Never had what it took to come around and was not the fastest guy on a bike that day.

Never deliver a complement with an excuse like that. At least do them separately.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

^ Never ceases to amaze me how people let their mental bias filter and project meaning that objectively is not there. How wonderful for you that you can interpret comments in such a way! Just because someone makes comments in a way that you wouldn’t, or think they shouldn’t, they’re somehow lame and unprofessional.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

FJSnoozer said:


> Come on man, That's exactly what that is. Its a lame underhanded way of saying he was unlucky and he lost because of the pedal slip.
> 
> He
> 1. had terrible strategy on the last lap that backfired and he can only blame himself
> ...


Whatever you think, Nino doesn't owe us an explanation, neither does he owes Sam congratulations for his performance yet he did congratulate him.

I didn't see Sam congratulate Nino for his effort in social media, omg! how unprofessional! /s

Just because he said good luck wasn't on his side doesn't mean he lose because of his pedal slip, people literally read too much between lines. What bugs me is that he attributed his last perfect season to good luck, and now that he says he didn't have any good luck in this race people go crazy, calling him unprofessional and sore loser.

To be honest is quite sad how in recent years the hate in mtb has grown. In past years, hate towards mtb athletes was very low compared to other toxic sports (footbal, soccer, etc) Whether your favorite athlete had win or lose you respected him and others, but nowadays that seems to be changing.

For example, Absalon, I'm not sure what he did wrong in recent years, but to me he has always been a remarkable athlete, yet this year on his instagram account you see plenty of hating fans posting insulting stuff to him. He posted some photos of him trying an e-bike and suddenly because he doesn't win races he is insulted by people claiming its all because of the e-bike or that he should retire and go ride his e-bike and not in the respectful way.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

We live in a social media world now. We not only care about how the race is, but also how well they treated a Kardashian when taking selfies at the finish line.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Sidewalk said:


> We live in a social media world now. We not only care about how the race is, but also how well they treated a Kardashian when taking selfies at the finish line.


I'm trying to figure out whether a Kardashian would be better suited for XCO, Enduro or DH. My best guess is DH since I don't think they make Kardashian-sized saddles, and of the three disciplines DH relies on saddles the least.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

XCKiwi said:


> Seeing that new angle of the finish sprint, Nino looked surprised when his foot came out. The first thing I said when I saw it at the time was it's either poor technique (unlikely, but being pushed harder than he has ever been could result in it), deliberate, or poor maintenance/equipment. If it wasn't deliberate then to me, that footage supports equipment failure. I definitely don't think it made a difference to the result, but it's always annoying when there is so much debate and speculation around a race outcome.


I know what you mean.
But I don't think they can be any real speculation, not after you watch the side view footage as posted on this forum.
Sam is a very different kettle of fish to Absalon in a sprint !


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

MattMay said:


> Where does he actually say that? On his Instagram he says (and this is an actual quote, which is the proper use of quotation marks): "This time good luck wasn't on my side. Congrats to @samuelgaze for an amazing performance."
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BgJeHS4BMJW/


I suppose the quotations threw off what I was getting at. They should have been air quotes.

Fact is, as stated above, he never gave Sam a proper congrats. More air quotes here, he was the faster rider hands down end air quotes is along the lines of what should have been said.

Again I don't think any less of him, he's driven to win. But I stand by my theory that the slip was on purpose.


----------



## Aby N (Jul 19, 2013)

1st time i have ever watched either a men/womens xc race, pretty good overall, however I thought the womens race was bit more exciting, as there were several battles throughout the top 10.

I really enjoy'd the ladies bump'n elbows @ the start of the 4th lap, going thru the in-field grass section & then after langvad spun-out a bit going up that climb...good stuff

As far as the mens race... who doesnt enjoy seeing the predicted winner go down. Sam did well for hanging onto nino's wheel for so long... surprised nino stayed out front knowing he was towing sam for so long....

felt bad for the guy who snapped his chain @ the start.....


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ive always loved the unpredictability of the women's race. Ninos been so hard to beat I get pretty hyped up when someone can hang with him.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Aby N said:


> felt bad for the guy who snapped his chain @ the start.....


Lukas Fluckiger.

I wonder why they just don't allow riders to go back to start line and receive pit assistance there, having to go all the way to the pits is a dumb rule, considering is highly likely something might happen at the start sprint. Of course, this should only be allowed at the starting lap.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

TDLover said:


> Lukas Fluckiger.
> 
> I wonder why they just don't allow riders to go back to start line and receive pit assistance there, having to go all the way to the pits is a dumb rule, considering is highly likely something might happen at the start sprint. Of course, this should only be allowed at the starting lap.


I agree. While the rule in general has some logic to it when you're at the course in the middle of the race, it's a totally different game at the start line. What would be the harm to go back and change the chain there? You're already dead last anyway so why punish the guy even further?


----------



## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

I thought in remember one race that there was a tech zone at the start finish. This was a couple years ago though. Even Rob was surprised by it.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Sounds like a good rule book amendment. Hell, even if you can't get tech assistance, just allowing a person to stand by with a chain to put on would help. Does seem like a common failure.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

TDLover said:


> Lukas Fluckiger.
> 
> I wonder why they just don't allow riders to go back to start line and receive pit assistance there, having to go all the way to the pits is a dumb rule, considering is highly likely something might happen at the start sprint. Of course, this should only be allowed at the starting lap.


I wonder why riders don't carry a 3 gram quick link. It's pretty ridiculous unless I am unaware of a rule preventing them doing it, which would also be ridiculous.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

rallymaniac said:


> I agree. While the rule in general has some logic to it when you're at the course in the middle of the race, it's a totally different game at the start line. What would be the harm to go back and change the chain there? You're already dead last anyway so why punish the guy even further?


Often there is a start loop and the field is going to be coming storming through the start line in 2 minutes. Plus, the mechanics have already left the start for the first tech. zone. Having a mechanic stay behind is impossible for all but the most well funded teams.

Really broken chains at the start should never happen. Mechanics need stop installing brand new chains race morning.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LMN said:


> Really broken chains at the start should never happen. Mechanics need stop installing brand new chains race morning.


Totally agree, as a mechanic people would often come in the day before a big race and want some last minute component replacements done and I'd always do them reluctantly and give fair warning that it wasn't the best idea. A few hard rides after any changes to shake things out prudent IME.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Totally agree, as a mechanic people would often come in the day before a big race and want some last minute component replacements done and I'd always do them reluctantly and give fair warning that it wasn't the best idea. A few hard rides after any changes to shake things out prudent IME.


+100
Never change anything before a race unless it's absolutely necessary. The mechanic should have several new-used chains with only a couple hard training rides on them. Those are the only ones I would swap too. Same goes for any part you want to save for a race. Use it, test it, save it. New parts should never be trusted.

I keep a set of brake pads that are pre scrubbed in for just this reason.


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

FJSnoozer said:


> I wonder why riders don't carry a 3 gram quick link. It's pretty ridiculous unless I am unaware of a rule preventing them doing it, which would also be ridiculous.


They would need to bring a chain tool with them too. How else are they going to fully remove the broken link? There is no rule preventing them from this, it just doesn't make sense 99% of the time.

Sure, mending the chain yourself will get you rolling in a few minutes. But only at the start line is this really going to save any time vs going to a tech zone. If you break a chain at the start, your race is over anyway... no matter what.

I'm with LMN, these are probably all new chains breaking. Swap a new chain on early int he week if you feel compelled to change it. Failures almost always happen right away or after a LONG time of use (and usually neglect).


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## frank6262 (Oct 9, 2006)

i imagine the chains weakest link snaps because of the large amount of torque a world class cyclist can lay down in those first high adrenaline pedal strokes!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

frank6262 said:


> i imagine the chains weakest link snaps because of the large amount of torque a world class cyclist can lay down in those first high adrenaline pedal strokes!


Especially in the moment just off the start where they're changing gears under extreme load.

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

LMN said:


> Often there is a start loop and the field is going to be coming storming through the start line in 2 minutes. Plus, the mechanics have already left the start for the first tech. zone. Having a mechanic stay behind is impossible for all but the most well funded teams.
> 
> Really broken chains at the start should never happen. Mechanics need stop installing brand new chains race morning.


I guess it makes sense but at the same time it would be good to allow some sort of help earlier than half way through the course.


----------



## Litemike (Sep 13, 2007)

Noticed Shimano XTR chains now have a master link rather than the pins.


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

briscoelab said:


> They would need to bring a chain tool with them too. How else are they going to fully remove the broken link? There is no rule preventing them from this, it just doesn't make sense 99% of the time.
> 
> Sure, mending the chain yourself will get you rolling in a few minutes. But only at the start line is this really going to save any time vs going to a tech zone. If you break a chain at the start, your race is over anyway... no matter what.
> 
> I'm with LMN, these are probably all new chains breaking. Swap a new chain on early int he week if you feel compelled to change it. Failures almost always happen right away or after a LONG time of use (and usually neglect).


I typically remove the bent links with my teeth.

For my wife(who races expert), I always pack a tiny chain break tool with the powerlink hooked on the rod that pushes the pin out. It is probably the only maintenance she could address on her own in a race.

I've blown up a Chain on the start leading a pack of 30 into singletrack. Its bad enough on a Wednesday nighter, If I flew 1000 miles to race a WC event, I dont want to be the guy they film running a 5K with his bike. On the bright side, he got the 3rd most video coverage next to Sam and Nino 

That's great advice about new parts form everyone.


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## frank6262 (Oct 9, 2006)

at this World class level of racing..im thinking how angry should Lukas allowed to be? at his mechanic or the chain manufacturer? Unacceptable! shouldnt a metal chain be able to withstand many thousands of lbs of load? should the broken chain be studied for why/where it failed?


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ive only had one chain failure, I was leading a race with a good margin for my first win, Last lap...Snap! But it was my fault I was new and didnt know that pins in other brands (kmc) were not replaceable. I added a couple links back in after I made it to short and it didnt last long. I was unaware of quick links at the time.

Lesson learned.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

frank6262 said:


> at this World class level of racing..im thinking how angry should Lukas allowed to be? at his mechanic or the chain manufacturer? Unacceptable! shouldnt a metal chain be able to withstand many thousands of lbs of load? should the broken chain be studied for why/where it failed?


absolutely. If I was a chain manufacturer I'd love to know as well. The challenge may be in most cases the fact that the chain lands in some remote bushes (as we have observed in Lukas' case) never to be recovered by the interested party 
Looks like Shimano is one of their team sponsors but I'm not sure if they're running their chains or not. No other chain manufacturer is mentioned as a sponsor on the other hand.


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## Aby N (Jul 19, 2013)

we will probably never get / hear the true story about the chain.

how possible is it for someone to just slightly get into the chain with a shoe / pedal & causing the chain to be compromised / bent / kinked slightly while lukas was giving everything he had.... possibility? 

That start looked gnarly to say the least...probably a bad / dodgy upshift...

that would suck to have a quality control issue @ the event.... bad luck hits everyone @ some point in their life.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Chains as with any other component have a reliability rate and are not immune to defects.

People take chains for granted, but they are incredible complex because of what they must endure while meeting market demands (price, availavility, durability, etc). Have in mind a chain consists of more than 500 single parts and as the popular phrase says, it will break by its weakest link. This only means that each of those 500 components must be identical in terms of quality, no easy feat for manufacturing. 

That is why they say that if a new chain doesn't break in the very firsts rides it should be good to go for a long time. Same reason why its not recommended to install a new chain before a race. 

However breaking a new chain is highly unlikely when it comes to being a manufacturer defect, those are minuscule compared to the universe of chains, insignificant even. 

What usually causes a chain to break when new is usually user error when installing it or some external forces for which the chain is not designed to cope with. For example, loading the chain laterally, crashing, hitting other rider and many other external causes. 

That is probably the reason why you don't blame the manufacturer or bother investigating it on your own. What's wrong though is why he has to run for 5k when he could just have assistance at the start line.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

There should be a chain stand at the end of the start where a rider can just run up to and grab a new chain


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

frank6262 said:


> at this World class level of racing..im thinking how angry should Lukas allowed to be? at his mechanic or the chain manufacturer? Unacceptable! shouldnt a metal chain be able to withstand many thousands of lbs of load? should the broken chain be studied for why/where it failed?


Maybe he should post a video of his chain snapping, congratulate Sam and say he was unlucky today.?

I kid!. And I forgive Nino.



Aby N said:


> we will probably never get / hear the true story about the chain.
> how possible is it for someone to just slightly get into the chain with a shoe / pedal & causing the chain to be compromised / bent / kinked slightly while lukas was giving everything he had.... possibility?
> That start looked gnarly to say the least...probably a bad / dodgy upshift...
> 
> that would suck to have a quality control issue @ the event.... bad luck hits everyone @ some point in their life.


Chains break, I have snapped my fair share, mostly shimano 10s. Since going to Sram chains I have only snapped 1. I have never had a snapped a chain under shifting load, its always a high power stomp.

The coaches above hit the nail on the head. It could be a new chain with a weak link, or an old chain that is ailing. I have broken an older chain twice in 5 feet on the same hill. Quite entertaining. I am not sure if it is the watts or the torque that snaps the chain. I think it is the sudden torque in many instances.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

To echo some other posters:

Put new chains on a couple days ahead of the big race. I'll see if I can dig it up, but I read an article a while back where they said that (very) slightly worn chains were faster than brand new chains (when same lubricant is applied to both).


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

Just got done having a nice talk with Emily Batty as she was coming down Milagrosa and i was going up. She definitely had ikons, i asked her why she isnt running Bontrager tires and she said she has a personal deal with Maxxis. Shes so tiny! If she wasnt wearing that Trek jersey with the big maple leaf on it i would have thought she was a 12 yr old girl. Its interesting she is in town for two weeks and is planning on riding her Top Fuel on the road mostly. Her husband is a serious shredder though, had no idea she was married to him. Hes next level on the gnar.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> She definitely had ikons, i asked her why she isnt running Bontrager tires and she said she has a personal deal with Maxxis.


So, why black them out then? And she ran Bonti tires at Stellenbosch, at least on the rear, looks like maybe an Ikon on the front.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Catch Nino Schurter's comments re Sam Gaze not racing Cape Epic?

_Reigning champions, Nino Schurter and Matthias Stirnemann of Scott-Sram, will be well aware of the impending teams looking to usurp their dominance at the top of the food chain. A brief analysis of Nino's performance at the Epic World Cup last Saturday suggests his recent training regime has been tailored more around endurance than intensity - validating Scott-Sram's intentions at defending the crown. The Swiss superstar was in high spirits ahead of his title defense and expressed his relief that last week's Epic World Cup winner, Sam Gaze, isn't racing the Absa Cape Epic this year.

"The Epic World Cup was an awesome event and the racing against Sam (Gaze) was a great battle. I'm glad he's not racing the Absa Cape Epic on Sunday," laughed Schurter. He went on to pertinently point out his intentions and ambitions for the race: "We (Scott-Sram) have prepared for every stage this year and we showed last year we can do it. I'm looking forward to every stage and Matthias and I have a good team spirit."_

https://www.cape-epic.com/news/1058/battle-royal-earmarked-for-the-prologue/


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

kevbikemad said:


> So, why black them out then? And she ran Bonti tires at Stellenbosch, at least on the rear, looks like maybe an Ikon on the front.
> View attachment 1187912


She had two brand new 2.0 ikons and the labels were not covered. Other than having ankle socks and no gloves she looked exactly the same as that picture. Its crazy how small and young she looks in person. Shes going to do intervals on mt lemmon on her top fuel. I asked her if she wanted to crush some trails and she said just road this time. She is staying with friends in the same neighborhood as me im sure ill see her again.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

Howie Grotts did pretty well, 21st?. Be interesting to see how his season pans out.
Having exposure to guys like Sauser and Gaze can only help him.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Not exactly WC...

Tinker is still out there. He raced a local 4 hour Sunday. As far as I can tell (no Strava for the race) he sat on the race leaders wheel the whole race, and they sprinted for the finish. The guy he was racing is a former road continental pro who is mid 30's, so not a slow guy either.

Their race started about 2.5 hours before mine on the same course. Our race started right after they came through so I ended up following them for about 20 minutes. Which also means all the photographers were paying attention to them, not me 




__ https://www.facebook.com/SHOAIRCG/posts/10155339236316845


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

madfella said:


> Howie Grotts did pretty well, 21st?. Be interesting to see how his season pans out.
> Having exposure to guys like Sauser and Gaze can only help him.


Grotts is teamed up with Kulhavy racing now at the Absa Cape Epic Stage race. Grotts is struggling to stay on Kulhavy's wheel on the flats. Kulhavy has the watts! Flats are the only thing keeping them from the lead of the race. After last years Cape Epic, Kulhavy should be good at plugging flat tires by now.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Sidewalk said:


> Not exactly WC...


But really inspiring! Esp for those of us with our 30s in the rearview mirror....


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## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

Sidewalk said:


> Not exactly WC...
> 
> Tinker is still out there. He raced a local 4 hour Sunday. As far as I can tell (no Strava for the race) he sat on the race leaders wheel the whole race, and they sprinted for the finish. The guy he was racing is a former road continental pro who is mid 30's, so not a slow guy either.
> 
> ...


Last year I rode along Tinker here:










For the major part of the race (~12hours) we were in the same group. He encouraged me to keep on going on the last slope. I completely bonked. I couldn't keep up and came into the finish a few seconds/minutes after him. Tough guy, real champion.

However, like Ned Overend probably blessed with good genetics. Nonetheless one of my Masters role models, motivation to keep going despite this age related decline. Like Frank Overton said on this recent velonews podcast: as a Masters athlete you have to take every marginal gain that is available (he probably said this in better English) ... and that is so true. Train smarter, live your life accodingly.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

quax said:


> Last year I rode along Tinker here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which race? The few 12 hours I have done with him he usually ended up quitting early because his lead was so big :laughing

I think he is an anomaly, but still, encouraging. And yep, a nice guy too. Gotten to share the podium a couple of times with him now just due to being in smaller events. I never chat with him though, just figure he has enough fans trying to get in a word with him that he doesn't need one more.

You can follow him on Strava, he does a lot of road riding in my area (lives about 30 minutes from me). Lots of climbing, he is still earning his fitness.


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## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

Salzkammergut Mountainbike Trophy - Österreichs größter MTB Marathon - Salzkammergut-Trophy


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

Sidewalk said:


> Which race? The few 12 hours I have done with him he usually ended up quitting early because his lead was so big :laughing
> 
> I think he is an anomaly, but still, encouraging. And yep, a nice guy too. Gotten to share the podium a couple of times with him now just due to being in smaller events. I never chat with him though, just figure he has enough fans trying to get in a word with him that he doesn't need one more.
> 
> You can follow him on Strava, he does a lot of road riding in my area (lives about 30 minutes from me). Lots of climbing, he is still earning his fitness.


I have had some conversations with Tinker. He actually is really shy and always says thank you for talking to me, he is genuinely grateful people want to come up and talk with him. Hes still got some childlike tendencies just a real shy person. So i encourage you to talk to him when you can he really gets a positive impact from it.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

I also haven't talked with him, I'm in the same page as sidewalk, too many fans already want to have him for them that I don't bother to be 1 more, although I don't share podiums with him. 

However, I read somewhere that he really enjoys bike riding, like deep down he just wants to ride bikes as long as he can and Cannondale gave him that lifetime chance many years ago. He said he won't stop riding bikes until he can no longer do it. How many pros can say that after 30 years of riding? Not many, the dude really loves cycling above anything else.


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

Had a good workout with Ellen Noble today. Shes traing for the world cups this season. Said she wants to make the Olympics. It was interesting, she has prototype Bontrager Xr1 2.3 tires. They arent for sale. Must be nice to have custom tires. She thinks her CX skills and fitness will really help her in todays style of world cup racing with it being so intense from the start to finish and her technical skills will translate well. She could have some real good results fairly early. Maybe like mvp in mens.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> Had a good workout with Ellen Noble today. Shes traing for the world cups this season. Said she wants to make the Olympics. It was interesting, she has prototype Bontrager Xr1 2.3 tires. They arent for sale. Must be nice to have custom tires. She thinks her CX skills and fitness will really help her in todays style of world cup racing with it being so intense from the start to finish and her technical skills will translate well. She could have some real good results fairly early. Maybe like mvp in mens.


You are a lucky guy! I hope it was fun too.
I have seen videos of her (and other top competitors) riding and I doubt I can keep up with any of them. They are strong!


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

Whats up with the Suntour forks in this video? Will normal people ever be able to get them? 




When i ran into Emily the other day on the trail, I saw the weird left hand gripshift and thought she had 2x12 lol. Was telling my friends that. Now it all makes sense. Ellen Noble doesnt have that same lockout switch though.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Look at this shamefull behaviour.






Apparently Bishop took it somewhat slowly on the singletrack to allow Lakata to make a gap, and this is the "revenge".


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## wheelzqc (Aug 31, 2016)

Thanks for the share. That's a bit on the crazy side. Whatever the other guy did before his revenge could have been done a different way.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Apparently the guy right in front of Fumic (who you can't see bc of the camera angle) might have grazed his front wheel, leading him to veer.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Right. We will see if Fumic will release his on board cam video.
In my view, this was completely intentional.

Prove to this is Fumic's reaction, or lack of, to the "incident" of taking a competitor down in a straight line.
Instead of giving Bishop a helping hand, apologizing, a simple word - ANYTHING, he just moved on.

Disgraceful.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Goran_injo said:


> Right. We will see if Fumic will release his on board cam video.
> In my view, this was completely intentional.
> 
> Prove to this is Fumic's reaction, or lack of, to the "incident" of taking a competitor down in a straight line.
> ...


Deep breath man. There is more that we don't know about the situation than what we do know.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Goran_injo said:


> Right. We will see if Fumic will release his on board cam video.
> In my view, this was completely intentional.
> 
> Prove to this is Fumic's reaction, or lack of, to the "incident" of taking a competitor down in a straight line.
> ...


Fumic explained his side of the story on instagram. His front wheel got crossed by the rider in front of him.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Yes its very hard to judge from that camera angle, from there and judging from Manuel Fumic reactions it does seem to be intentional. However, if you analyze it more carefully its true the rider in front of him blocked his path and that the way Fumic lost control of its front wheel might indicate he suffered contact with the front rider's rear tire. 

I know we all like conspiracy theories, same with Nino's pedal slip, but Fumic was racing for the 2nd or 3rd place in the overall, do you really thing he would be willing to give up 3rd place just to get back at one guy who won't even score high in the race? I think not.


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## Purulento (Aug 27, 2009)

What about Bishop's side about this?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

It seems pretty obvious, I don't know why anyone would question Fumic's account. That's racing.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

It's ridiculous to suggest that someone would take themselves out like that when they're in contention for one of the biggest races of the year. Not to mention the risk of injury.


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## EndoAgain (Apr 8, 2005)

Bishop didn't have much to say on his facebook page. He has the video clip and mentioned he is in a sling but to paraphrase he said "Thats racing".


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Crashing himself or Bishop of course wasn't intentional. 
This seems like a head nudge that went wrong.

Even, and I highly doubt it, that the nudge wasn't intentional, Fumic caused a direct crash to a competitor that was just riding a straight line. 

He didn't offer a hand, apologize or said a simple word. Kept a smug face and moved on while Bishop was in pain.

No excuses.


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## supersize (Aug 31, 2005)

As others have said that racing. The hole he was moving into go closed and he had no where to go and his wheel got sweeped out. They both crashed he got up and got back in the race. Fumic had a good gash on his sholder and hip. They show it after the finish line.


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## daveinaus (Oct 10, 2011)

Watch the video a few times and his front wheel goes out from under him before his upper body moves at all. The "head nudge" was as a result of him falling to the right, a natural reaction as he tries to save himself from the fall. As to why he didn't offer a helping hand, well he's fighting for the podium and just got taken out by the guys teammate. It looked like a very fast section so losing contact with the lead group could be very costly. He also snapped a tendon in one of his fingers and cut his shoulder open, probably not in the mood to hang around and have a chat.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

Did anyone see any advertising/marketing by Specialized after the double Elite win at the XCO Stellenbosch? I didn't, and thought that it would have been a good move for the company to capitalise on that race. 
E.g - "S-Works Epic: The bike that put Nino in the Hurt locker" 

Or maybe high end XCO is not a large enough market...


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Double win on Absa Cape Epic as well. The Epic won the Epic.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Catherine came through the first lap of Fontana with a 25 second gap.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Is there any live coverage of the Fontana races?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Sidewalk said:


> Catherine came through the first lap of Fontana with a 25 second gap.


And then that gap disappeared.

Wonder what happened second lap. Her lap time drop off was very significant.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

rockyuphill said:


> Is there any live coverage of the Fontana races?


Other than live lap times, I don't think so. Link should be on the Sho Air or Team Big Bear site. They did it one year when they were trying to get a world cup race out here.

Men's race starts in about 5 minutes. I already left though. Returning my demo bike. And I need food 



LMN said:


> And then that gap disappeared.
> 
> Wonder what happened second lap. Her lap time drop off was very significant.


I asked one of the mechs "Is Catherine's lesser half here?"

Guess not


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Short race start clip. Dry and warm. About 80° and kinda loose.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BhSeAK7huLH/


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

Commonwealth Games women, Gold Coast Australian
Annie Last First followed by
E.Richards
H.Smith Canada
Batty

Men start in an hour, it's a big one for Gaze, Cooper, McConnell & Ben Oliver.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

madfella said:


> Commonwealth Games women, Gold Coast Australian
> Annie Last First followed by
> E.Richards
> H.Smith Canada
> ...


Any place to watch it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chestr (Oct 15, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Any place to watch it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://7commgames.com.au has full streaming but might be geolocked to australian ip addresses.

Ladies race had some quite happy riders and some pretty disappointed like batty and bec mcconnel.

Mens race will start in about 45 mins.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Cooper from Gaze, Haverly? (Saffa) and Been Oliver (NZ) after 55min. 2 laps to go.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

chestr said:


> https://7commgames.com.au has full streaming but might be geolocked to australian ip addresses.
> 
> Ladies race had some quite happy riders and some pretty disappointed like batty and bec mcconnel.
> 
> Mens race will start in about 45 mins.


I connected to Australia with my VPN and it works. It seems you do need to have an IP address from that region... watching it right now.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Wow, last lap and Sam just put the hammer down...


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

WOW what a Race!


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Holy smokes Sam Gaze!!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Sam just had a seat or chain? problem and has dropped back to 3rd and now back to 2nd just behind Anton.

We had an advert and no footage


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

I think he burmped a tyre on the last Dh and they gave it a bit more air... maybe


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Gaze from Cooper, reversing the result from 4 years ago


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Wow! Just WOW!


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Gaze is taking no prisoners. Cooper looks a bit pissed at that pass. I thought it was clean. It was clear Gaze had the power to get past him. Amazing finish.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Gaze was a bit pissed about either the pass or attacking when he had the mechanical?

The pass, yeah, maybe but at that stage of the race, everyone is going to have very wide elbows.

Attacking when he had the mechanical? This is the last half lap of the Commonwealth Games MTB, not part way through a road classic.


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## mix123 (Sep 2, 2015)

Anywhere to rewatch?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

He was pissed at the attack while he was pitting.

He's issued a public apology for his actions.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> Gaze was a bit pissed about either the pass or attacking when he had the mechanical?
> 
> The pass, yeah, maybe but at that stage of the race, everyone is going to have very wide elbows.
> 
> Attacking when he had the mechanical? This is the last half lap of the Commonwealth Games MTB, not part way through a road classic.


Pretty low of him to call Anton our for that.

After all he is the guy who flatted and went the front to block the other guys on the descent so he could nurse his flat to the pits. Not a bad strategy, but don't complain about people attacking after you slowed the race down.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

So I'm not sure at the moment, but it looks like Bonelli will be live streamed this weekend?

https://goo.gl/uBSDP7

https://twitter.com/usacycling/status/984533779330019328


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

Everybody was giving hard time here to Nino because he did not congratule Sam after crosinh the line in SA. But now everybody is quite after for Sam has done after yesturday race. 

Double standard!!!!!


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

LMN said:


> Pretty low of him to call Anton our for that.
> 
> After all he is the guy who flatted and went the front to block the other guys on the descent so he could nurse his flat to the pits. Not a bad strategy, but don't complain about people attacking after you slowed the race down.


I may have missed it but is that really what happened, he got the flat at the top of the descent and then blocked Cooper & Hatherley?

I felt watching it that Gaze was upset at Cooper attacking when he was in the pits, given just a few kms to go. I don't think Gaze would have expected Cooper to wait. Do you think that was acceptable etiquette, or what is the etiquette in MTB racing in that situation?


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

madfella said:


> I may have missed it but is that really what happened, he got the flat at the top of the descent and then blocked Cooper & Hatherley?
> 
> I felt watching it that Gaze was upset at Cooper attacking when he was in the pits, given just a few kms to go. I don't think Gaze would have expected Cooper to wait. Do you think that was acceptable etiquette, or what is the etiquette in MTB racing in that situation?


It's not the Tour de France. Making equipment choices (tires) durable enough to go the distance is part of MTB racing. You don't wait when your competitor flats his lightweight, non-protection tires...you attack!


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## m3bas (Dec 24, 2011)

LMN said:


> Pretty low of him to call Anton our for that.
> 
> After all he is the guy who flatted and went the front to block the other guys on the descent so he could nurse his flat to the pits. Not a bad strategy, but don't complain about people attacking after you slowed the race down.


And stopping at the pits so that he was blocking the path!
What was Cooper supposed to do ease up and let the guy from SA ride away?
I was a Gaze fan now not so sure

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

madfella said:


> I may have missed it but is that really what happened, he got the flat at the top of the descent and then blocked Cooper & Hatherley?
> 
> I felt watching it that Gaze was upset at Cooper attacking when he was in the pits, given just a few kms to go. I don't think Gaze would have expected Cooper to wait. Do you think that was acceptable etiquette, or what is the etiquette in MTB racing in that situation?


I think he actually burped the tire on the previous descent. And know that if the next descent was ridden at normal speed he would be dropped. So he went to the front and slowed it down. When I watching the race, I remember think "they are going really slow downhill right now that is odd".

In mountain bike racing you don't wait for someone because they have a flat. A flat is because of a technical mistake, not because a piece of glass on the pavement.

Even if in Anton wanted to wait for Gaze it would have been terrible strategy. He had no idea how long Gaze was going to be in pits and he also had Hatherley to contend with. The second Gaze went into the pits Anton needed to do everything he could to drop Hatherley.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

I'm sure Sam regrets it. None of us are perfect, I've heard/seen worse at local week night races.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

XC_killer said:


> Everybody was giving hard time here to Nino because he did not congratule Sam after crosinh the line in SA. But now everybody is quite after for Sam has done after yesturday race.
> 
> Double standard!!!!!


Not quite. Nino didn't flip Sam off then unload on him about poor sportsmanship.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I may be wrong, but the winner of the NZ road championship did the same thing recently. 

Also, can’t you be DQd for that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

What tires do the Trek factory racers other than Emily Batty, and Ellen Noble use? 

On the commonwealth games Emily was definitely targeting a gold medal. Thats why she was in Tucson to specifically train in hotter weather and be able to ride outisde in good weather everyday. Honestly, and forgive my ignorance I had never heard of the Commonwealth games until she told me about them. Does winning them qualify you for the Olympics or anything?


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> What tires do the Trek factory racers other than Emily Batty, and Ellen Noble use?
> 
> On the commonwealth games Emily was definitely targeting a gold medal. Thats why she was in Tucson to specifically train in hotter weather and be able to ride outisde in good weather everyday. Honestly, and forgive my ignorance I had never heard of the Commonwealth games until she told me about them. Does winning them qualify you for the Olympics or anything?


Well if your from Australia, winning a gold medal at comm games, you're pretty much a god over here. Pretty much because we beat our bro's (NZ) and we beat our overlords (England) so therefore we're the bestest (don't worry about that 3/4 of the rest of the world isn't there, we won thats al there is to it). It that big a deal here.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> What tires do the Trek factory racers other than Emily Batty, and Ellen Noble use?


Anton & Mantecon used Bonti at Stellenbosch, XR1 for Anton, looks like XR2 for Mantecon (based on images on Instagram). Not sure about Commonwealth games for Anton.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/anton...at-stellenbosch-world-cup-xco-bike-check.html


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

kevbikemad said:


> Anton & Mantecon used Bonti at Stellenbosch, XR1 for Anton, looks like XR2 for Mantecon (based on images on Instagram). Not sure about Commonwealth games for Anton.
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/anton...at-stellenbosch-world-cup-xco-bike-check.html


Thank you. Have you ever seen any of them talking about them in an interview or anything? Im just trying to figure out if they do any marketing of the tires like Emily gets paid to both use and promote Maxxis. Wondering if the Trek racers ever wax poetic about Bontrager or just use them because the tires are Trek and that pretty much is it. People see them using them and thats enough "marketing".


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## XC_killer (Oct 29, 2017)

@westin
I think we have missunderstanding here. My point is that Sam behave really bad and everybody here is quite. While Ninos normal reaction was followed by attack from guys here on forum


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## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> Thank you. Have you ever seen any of them talking about them in an interview or anything? Im just trying to figure out if they do any marketing of the tires like Emily gets paid to both use and promote Maxxis. Wondering if the Trek racers ever wax poetic about Bontrager or just use them because the tires are Trek and that pretty much is it. People see them using them and thats enough "marketing".


Can you point to an occasion where Emily "promoted" Maxxis? I've seen Ikons on her bike (usually with a blacked out logo) but that's it.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> Thank you. Have you ever seen any of them talking about them in an interview or anything? Im just trying to figure out if they do any marketing of the tires like Emily gets paid to both use and promote Maxxis. Wondering if the Trek racers ever wax poetic about Bontrager or just use them because the tires are Trek and that pretty much is it. People see them using them and thats enough "marketing".


I have not seen any marketing/promoting of Bonti tires by team riders. Riders usually promote the brands by wearing the logo on their kit, not much else I can think of for marketing by racers. Maybe the odd ad, but there really isn't a lot of tire marketing. I have never seen Batty promote Maxxis in any way either though. In the past, the Maxxis was blacked out with marker on her tires and she does not seem to even have the logo on her kit and not listed on her website, even though she has all her other personal sponsors. Most riders are probably just happy to be sponsored and run the tire brand they are given.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

PlanB said:


> Can you point to an occasion where Emily "promoted" Maxxis? I've seen Ikons on her bike (usually with a blacked out logo) but that's it.


Agreed, Maxxis may sponsor her but she doesn't go out of her way to promote them (tires always blacked out). The fact of the matter is this thread is the most I've ever seen anybody discuss Bontrager tires EVER. Trek Factory Racing Team is the marketing, the team uses Bontrager components. End of discussion. Bontrager tires don't have some secret sauce that nobody else can figure out.


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

PlanB said:


> Can you point to an occasion where Emily "promoted" Maxxis? I've seen Ikons on her bike (usually with a blacked out logo) but that's it.


Standing in the Safeway at catalina hwy and tanque verde wearing a maxxis t shirt and baseball cap. Then if you ask her why she uses maxxis she will give you a little canned speech. To me thats marketing and then promoting them. If you ask Ellen Noble why she runs Bonti she will tell you she has been running the xr1 for a couple years even riding for other brands because she likes them so much. She even has her own 2.3 xr1 that have no labels. Now i may have the definition of marketing and promoting wrong i am for sure open to that possibility. I was just curious. Thank you for everyones thoughts on the matter and have a nice day.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

XC_killer said:


> @westin
> I think we have missunderstanding here. My point is that Sam behave really bad and everybody here is quite. While Ninos normal reaction was followed by attack from guys here on forum


One thing Gaze can't undo is this pic winging its way around the web. Hard to unsee it.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

To be honest he always looked like that kind of guy to me, now this just proves it.

The good thing is he is young and he can redeem himself if he wants.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> Standing in the Safeway at catalina hwy and tanque verde wearing a maxxis t shirt and baseball cap. Then if you ask her why she uses maxxis she will give you a little canned speech. To me thats marketing and then promoting them. If you ask Ellen Noble why she runs Bonti she will tell you she has been running the xr1 for a couple years even riding for other brands because she likes them so much. She even has her own 2.3 xr1 that have no labels. Now i may have the definition of marketing and promoting wrong i am for sure open to that possibility. I was just curious. Thank you for everyones thoughts on the matter and have a nice day.


Lane she isn't sponsored by Maxxis. Google "Emily Batty bike". In any official photo for a magazine there is always Bontrager tires on her bike. While racing the Maxxis logo is always blacked out.

And of course she gives a canned speech about running Maxxis tires. Any time you step outside of your sponsors product you have to be careful what you say. Although running Maxxis vs. Bontrager isn't a deal, Bontrager licences it tires from Maxxis (CST).


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

MattMay said:


> One thing Gaze can't undo is this pic winging its way around the web. Hard to unsee it.


Especially after learning about the story. To my knowledge there is no etiquette that says to wait for the leader in XC if they get a puncture. What an odd thing to do.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

kevbikemad said:


> Most riders are probably just happy to be sponsored and run the tire brand they are given.


My friends give me their old tires, and ODI gives me grips. I absolutely love them all for that reason alone!


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I wasn't able to stick around too long after my race. But I stayed long enough to watch the women's race start and part of the first lap before leaving. CP was leading at about 3/4 through the first lap when I snapped these photos. Looks like she finished third.

I don't know why they are sideways. I took them in portrait, and view as portrait on my computer, but are uploading in landscape.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BhkAqQCg5hi/


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## jarhead22 (Feb 26, 2014)

any replay links?


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

MattMay said:


> One thing Gaze can't undo is this pic winging its way around the web. Hard to unsee it.


Much like Peter Sagan grabbing the podium girl's butt several years ago... this completely ruined my opinion of Sam. Now I think Sagan has worked hard to overcome that stupid move and people have grown to like him again. It too a long time though. We'll see how Sam handles this long term.

People do stupid things in the heat of the moment, esp when young. But that doesn't mean there are no consequences to those actions. Imagine the horror Specialized has seeing this pic out there. At least he isn't in team gear.

Seriously though, what a childish [email protected] Is he really upset that they didn't soft pedal after he got a flat in the last lap of an XC race. What a joke.

I was stoked to see someone challenge and beat Nino in the opening round. Now, I will always cheer for anyone to beat Gaze (and I love the Specialized team).

Hopefully he realized what a bone head he is and works to do better.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

jarhead22 said:


> any replay links?


Not seeing any video coverage of Bonelli HC and it's too bad. I really wish there was some coverage of these events but I guess it may come down to cost to produce. With Kenda series there used to be some coverage for HC race when some of the bigger names attended but perhaps some top Elites are not attending as much due to World Cup calendar? No disrespect to those that did attend just an observation. Heck even finding results the same day after the race online was impossible.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

trmn8er said:


> Not seeing any video coverage of Bonelli HC and it's too bad. I really wish there was some coverage of these events but I guess it may come down to cost to produce. With Kenda series there used to be some coverage for HC race when some of the bigger names attended but perhaps some top Elites are not attending as much due to World Cup calendar? No disrespect to those that did attend just an observation. Heck even finding results the same day after the race online was impossible.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As far as I know (could be wrong), the covered Fontana and Bonelli one year to try and show off to the UCI to try and get a world cup event out here. While I REALLY wish they were successful...I also imagine that teams didn't want to pay the cost to come out here. So for that year they used helicopter coverage, and I am guessing paid Nino to come out and race. I'm sure LMN could correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe several of the female heavy hitters were there too. Georgia Gould, CP, Emily, etc. Wait, all Canadian? And if I remember right, local hero Larissa Connors won at Bonelli (Gould at Fontana).


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## LaneDetroitCity (Nov 10, 2015)

Sidewalk said:


> As far as I know (could be wrong), the covered Fontana and Bonelli one year to try and show off to the UCI to try and get a world cup event out here. While I REALLY wish they were successful...I also imagine that teams didn't want to pay the cost to come out here. So for that year they used helicopter coverage, and I am guessing paid Nino to come out and race. I'm sure LMN could correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> I believe several of the female heavy hitters were there too. Georgia Gould, CP, Emily, etc. Wait, all Canadian? And if I remember right, local hero Larissa Connors won at Bonelli (Gould at Fontana).


Georgia Gould. USA Olympian from Colorado.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LaneDetroitCity said:


> Georgia Gould. USA Olympian from Colorado.


Vermont. Sure, she lived here while she was in the prime of career. But from VT, and back in VT.

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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

briscoelab said:


> Much like Peter Sagan grabbing the podium girl's butt several years ago... this completely ruined my opinion of Sam. Now I think Sagan has worked hard to overcome that stupid move and people have grown to like him again. It too a long time though. We'll see how Sam handles this long term.
> 
> People do stupid things in the heat of the moment, esp when young. But that doesn't mean there are no consequences to those actions. Imagine the horror Specialized has seeing this pic out there. At least he isn't in team gear.
> 
> ...


Yeah he realised he was being a complete tool but too late. A week of abuse and death threats have hammered that home. He never expected anyone to wait after flatting and that story just took on a life of its own. He will be learning fast to keep a smile on his dial and let the racing tell the story. Lots of redemption to work towards making it up to the mtbking community.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Nino for the win...hardtail today.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

briscoelab said:


> Much like Peter Sagan grabbing the podium girl's butt several years ago... this completely ruined my opinion of Sam. Now I think Sagan has worked hard to overcome that stupid move and people have grown to like him again. It too a long time though. We'll see how Sam handles this long term.
> 
> People do stupid things in the heat of the moment, esp when young. But that doesn't mean there are no consequences to those actions. Imagine the horror Specialized has seeing this pic out there. At least he isn't in team gear.
> 
> ...


agreed. What a tool. I really wish Nino's shoe didn't clip out. Perhaps if he beat him back then, Sam would have been less of a douche...


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

MattMay said:


> Nino for the win...hardtail today.


It's nice to see Nino give the hardtail a little air time!


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Looks like Kross is coming out w a FS xc bike.


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## Dphoward (Jul 29, 2013)

Any way to rewatch the race in the US? Seemed like there was coverage.


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## Carioca_XC (Dec 30, 2014)

https://www.facebook.com/NinoSchurter/posts/10156372013303910:0


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Interesting, I wonder why scott let him switch, you would think they would rather sell more sparks than hardtails, although it is possible this gives current spark owners a reason to spice things up and buy a hardtail as well.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Because for some tracks, the hardtail is still faster?


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Heubach XC Track explained: up and down. Thats one lap. 1500m of climbing for the whole race. (Stellenbosch: 850m)


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

TDLover said:


> Interesting, I wonder why scott let him switch, you would think they would rather sell more sparks than hardtails, although it is possible this gives current spark owners a reason to spice things up and buy a hardtail as well.


Because on certain tracks every gram of weight will be important for him this season with Sam Gaze and MvdP nipping at his heels.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Maybe because with the new WC format (must use same bike for short track and XCO) hardtails may be the weapon of choice, so he's dialing it in? Just guessing...I think I remember a Red Bull interview where he hinted at something like that. Will be interesting to see the bike choices for sure.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I'm starting to feel like the minority in my local races (probably 50/50) still riding a HT. I demo'ed a FS for a week and really liked it, especially certain aspects including how it descended. But, I reserved judgement until after I raced my HT again, and decided I still prefer HT. Granted, I'm not on a WC course, but still. I do wonder if some of my rivals would be faster on HT's? I think all the guys that beat me yesterday were also on HT's too.

I think it would be good for the manufacturers to allow riders to swap back and forth. Profit wise, better if you can convince people that having two bikes is better than one.



MattMay said:


> Maybe because with the new WC format (must use same bike for short track and XCO)


I didn't know that about the rule. Kinda cool!


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

TDLover said:


> Interesting, I wonder why scott let him switch.


Do manufacturers control sponsored rider choices to that degree? Didn't Nino hold out on 27.5 for a couple of years?


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## JasperGr (Sep 3, 2015)

Nino choose what he wants for every race. Why would you ride on a heavier bike at a climb track? We will see him on the spark again when descents are harder. 


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

I don't think it that important which bike a rider is on for a manufacture. As long as it is brand X and the rider can win does it really make a difference? I don't think Scott cares much which bike Nino is on if he can win.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Winning on the HT is better than 2nd on the FS.


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## JasperGr (Sep 3, 2015)

No Fully needed, smooth track






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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

Man, this is one long break between XC rounds! Still a fortnight until Albstadt. Is it too early to make predictions? Can anyone beat Nino on one of the few remaining WC circuits with long climbs?


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

madfella said:


> Man, this is one long break between XC rounds! Still a fortnight until Albstadt. Is it too early to make predictions? Can anyone beat Nino on one of the few remaining WC circuits with long climbs?


All I know is I can't wait to find out. As much as I like Nino's style and dominance, it is good for the sport to see him pushed. Hard. And he is being pushed hard. I remember seeing a young Sam Gaze hang with Nino at Bonelli Park here in Socal three years ago. Sam was not well known, and the announcer was trying to figure out who was on Nino's wheel. At some point Nino was able to reach another gear and dropped him. I'm not a Sam Gaze fan especially after his recent antics, but whether it's Vanderpoel, Gaze, Cooper, or any number of young guns clawing their way up it's good for the Sport and will make it more exciting to see how long Nino and other more Senior riders can be competitive in the later part of their careers. Clearly Nino is still the favorite and one loss is not an indicator he's waning, but he is human. Superhuman perhaps, but human.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

I don't think Nino is getting slower, but perhaps some of the young guys are just starting to reach their potential.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

trmn8er said:


> All I know is I can't wait to find out. As much as I like Nino's style and dominance, it is good for the sport to see him pushed. Hard. And he is being pushed hard. I remember seeing a young Sam Gaze hang with Nino at Bonelli Park here in Socal three years ago. Sam was not well known, and the announcer was trying to figure out who was on Nino's wheel. At some point Nino was able to reach another gear and dropped him. I'm not a Sam Gaze fan especially after his recent antics, but whether it's Vanderpoel, Gaze, Cooper, or any number of young guns clawing their way up it's good for the Sport and will make it more exciting to see how long Nino and other more Senior riders can be competitive in the later part of their careers. Clearly Nino is still the favorite and one loss is not an indicator he's waning, but he is human. Superhuman perhaps, but human.


I recall that Sam vs Nino race too. (As a NZ'er, it's pretty common for people not to know anything about us! - or worse still that we are from Australia).
Albstadt, I'm picking strong performances from Carod and Forster.


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## grawp (Apr 22, 2012)

Can I ask a favour? Can we forgive Sam Gaze for acting like a plonker at the Commonwealth games? I expect he’s feeling really stupid right now so I’d like us to all get behind him. It was amazing to see someone not only hang onto Nino at the first round of the World Cup but challenge and beat the greatest xc racer of our time. We so needed this and it opens up the door to the others knowing that Nino is a mere mortal. It’s good for Nino too, it’ll make him more marketable if he has viable opostition.
Think about the alternative; boring, corporate ‘Team Sky’ type marginal (flipping close to the ‘thin blue line’) media friendly, power driven machines. I’d prefer slightly stupid at times, hot headed, true blue racers every day of the week.
Peter Sagan and Mark Cavendish have both appeared as utter muppets at times but by god I love to watch them race. Can we separate media friendliness from raw, sometimes idiotic bike racing talent and get behind Sam and forgive him for his heat of the moment over reaction.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

I for one sure ain't holding a grudge and am looking forward to what looks like a more competitive and exciting year.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

Just watching the replay of yesterday's Swiss Cup race that Nino won. He had 2 riders just behind and Nino had already slowed with his arms up celebrating even before the finish straight. In fact one of riders looked like he had to slow behind Nino to let him have his victory salute across the line. Why did they not even attempt a sneaky sprint? Is it considered bad form for Euro riders to attempt a challenge with the champ or had they already decided they couldn't win a sprint against Nino?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

insidertrading said:


> Just watching the replay of yesterday's Swiss Cup race that Nino won. He had 2 riders just behind and Nino had already slowed with his arms up celebrating even before the finish straight. In fact one of riders looked like he had to slow behind Nino to let him have his victory salute across the line. Why did they not even attempt a sneaky sprint? Is it considered bad form for Euro riders to attempt a challenge with the champ or had they already decided they couldn't win a sprint against Nino?


Got a link?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1633295996719235&id=636483609733817 link for end of Solothurn Race


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

That's very weird, but I guess there is an explanation for that, they were right behind him for not to attack, so probably the finish line occurred before?

edit: seems the riders are doing other category or something like that


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Dropper for Nino eh?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Looks like a Garmin 130 on the stem too. He used to use an Edge 25.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

MattMay said:


> Dropper for Nino eh?


The hardtail Scale with a dropper is still lighter than his full suspension Spark with no dropper.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Here is a link to the race on YouTube:


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

So he had lapped them...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Should have been on gravel bikes


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

j.b. Weld said:


> should have been on gravel bikes


lol!


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Sidewalk said:


> I'm starting to feel like the minority in my local races (probably 50/50) still riding a HT. I demo'ed a FS for a week and really liked it, especially certain aspects including how it descended. But, I reserved judgement until after I raced my HT again, and decided I still prefer HT. Granted, I'm not on a WC course, but still. I do wonder if some of my rivals would be faster on HT's? I think all the guys that beat me yesterday were also on HT's too.


I wonder if as bikes get better (and with the addition of droppers), that rear suspension functioned as a bandaid to cover some of the suck in the aggressive geometry of older designs. Now that XC bikes are becoming more capable on technical terrain, the compromise of using a HT is becoming less of a compromise.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

I live in Solothurn, the town where the Swiss Cup took place. Unfortunately, the bike festival ended tragically. A rider crashed yesterday and succumbed to his injuries today :sad:. There was a moment of silence before the start of my category.


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## m3bas (Dec 24, 2011)

Stonerider said:


> The hardtail Scale with a dropper is still lighter than his full suspension Spark with no dropper.


I've found that I am actually quicker on my Procaliber HT with dropper than I was on my Yeti ASR without dropper. Of course Yeti with dropper would be quickest, but also the slowest going back up.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

bananajoe said:


> I live in Solothurn, the town where the Swiss Cup took place. Unfortunately, the bike festival ended tragically. A rider crashed yesterday and succumbed to his injuries today :sad:. There was a moment of silence before the start of my category.


Very sorry to hear that. we're one community when stuff like this happens regardless of what part of the world we live in.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

richde said:


> I wonder if as bikes get better (and with the addition of droppers), that rear suspension functioned as a bandaid to cover some of the suck in the aggressive geometry of older designs.


Mine is a part of the "new generation" (F-Si) that is more DH aggressive, and it can really descend. It was nice this Sunday being able to clear a nice double at the top of a descent instead of going around it the slow way 



bananajoe said:


> I live in Solothurn, the town where the Swiss Cup took place. Unfortunately, the bike festival ended tragically. A rider crashed yesterday and succumbed to his injuries today :sad:. There was a moment of silence before the start of my category.


Sorry to hear.


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## btbsps (May 5, 2018)

insidertrading said:


> Just watching the replay of yesterday's Swiss Cup race that Nino won. He had 2 riders just behind and Nino had already slowed with his arms up celebrating even before the finish straight. In fact one of riders looked like he had to slow behind Nino to let him have his victory salute across the line. Why did they not even attempt a sneaky sprint? Is it considered bad form for Euro riders to attempt a challenge with the champ or had they already decided they couldn't win a sprint against Nino?


If you look closely, the forth or fifth rider behind nino celebrated so did the guy behind. They took second and third. The guys behind nino just got lapped.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

Yeah, I only saw the last bit and didn't realise the lapped riders were still in. I think what I was getting at was that it has mostly been Kiwi riders who have finished in front of Nino in the last few years ( in the few times he has been beaten) and wondered if their mindset was different to European riders. Is it coincidence kiwis have won the U23 in the last 3 years or is it a difference in the way they ride/think?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

insidertrading said:


> Yeah, I only saw the last bit and didn't realise the lapped riders were still in. I think what I was getting at was that it has mostly been Kiwi riders who have finished in front of Nino in the last few years ( in the few times he has been beaten) and wondered if their mindset was different to European riders. Is it coincidence kiwis have won the U23 in the last 3 years or is it a difference in the way they ride/think?


Or riders from the southern continents are going to have superior form in spring then riders for the north.

The Kiwi's get a chance to race Nino when they are on top form and he isn't. Whereas those in the northern climates have form that rises and falls at the same time as his.


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## AztecRider (Oct 31, 2008)

An era comes to and end. The legend retires :-(


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

AztecRider said:


> An era comes to and end. The legend retires :-(


Care to explain?

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## AztecRider (Oct 31, 2008)

Forgot to include link:

Infos VTT : Julien Absalon arrête sa carrière


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

AztecRider said:


> An era comes to and end. The legend retires :-(


Again?


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

AztecRider said:


> Forgot to include link:
> 
> Infos VTT : Julien Absalon arrÃªte sa carriÃ¨re


Is that an old school style green Michelin he's riding in that pic?!


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

JoePAz said:


> I don't think it that important which bike a rider is on for a manufacture. As long as it is brand X and the rider can win does it really make a difference? I don't think Scott cares much which bike Nino is on if he can win.


It would be very important to Scott for Nino to race some races on the Spark.

Same situation for the scale.

Horses for courses, and hardtails are rad. It has to be pretty chunky for me to "need" a FS and the FS to make me faster. I'm sure someone like Nino has teh same experienced raised to another power.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

madfella said:


> Man, this is one long break between XC rounds! Still a fortnight until Albstadt. Is it too early to make predictions? Can anyone beat Nino on one of the few remaining WC circuits with long climbs?


Yeah, Its really bothering my wife. Every sunday she gets up and asks me if there is a race. Its like groundhog day.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

AztecRider said:


> Forgot to include link:
> 
> Infos VTT : Julien Absalon arrête sa carrière


https://www.facebook.com/NinoSchurter/posts/10156409940593910:0


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## Purulento (Aug 27, 2009)

NordieBoy said:


> https://www.facebook.com/NinoSchurter/posts/10156409940593910:0


IMO one the most impressive performances I've seen from Absalon, putting almost 2min on Nino.

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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Its a shame to lose such a class act in XCO, his last years weren't that strong, yet he took Nino's dominance graciously. If it weren't for his collarbone injury he might have finished on a higher note. 

To everyone who follow him during his career its clear he was someone kids could look up to and get inspired by him, hopefully young prospects replace him in this way.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

Is Redbull covering this weekend's short race on Friday (qualifying)? I only see links for the main men's and women's XCO races....


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

MvdP racing with fresh metal implant. Ouch.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

tewks13 said:


> Is Redbull covering this weekend's short race on Friday (qualifying)? I only see links for the main men's and women's XCO races....


I think I heard them mention during the last coverage that the Friday races will not be covered live. I don't remember if they mentioned anything bout a recap of it being available later. Seems that at least they would want to show a recap of it at some point before Sunday's race.


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## aohammer (Feb 2, 2006)

MattMay said:


> MvdP racing with fresh metal implant. Ouch.


Whoa, missed that! Sure hope he's back in form come this weekend. Looks slow healing per what's shown on that x-ray.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

rallymaniac said:


> I think I heard them mention during the last coverage that the Friday races will not be covered live. I don't remember if they mentioned anything bout a recap of it being available later. Seems that at least they would want to show a recap of it at some point before Sunday's race.


Thanks for the update... I guess the only one I will get to see is when we head up to Mont Saint Anne in August.

Any picks for this weekend's races??


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

This could be a very interesting weekend of racing. New short track AND super muddy conditions. Should make for fun viewing and maybe some drama/mechanicals. MVDP wrist might be an issue, but the conditions should be in his favour. Anyone know if he has a cast or a brace on his wrist?

Sure wish RedBull was broadcasting the STXC on Friday.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

I don't understand why don't they show short track on live ? The whole point of that was being spectator friendly ? Short and interesting ?


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Not sure if this Live Stream will work, but maybe we can see some short track?





Edit - Yeah, don't bother, looks like only a redirect ...


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## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

When is it supposed to start?


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

csteven71 said:


> When is it supposed to start?


Looks like 10:10 CST. My youtube feed shows countdown

Edit: looks like this is a click bait to a paid website. No feed 10 minutes into it and there is a link that they want you to go to in order to watch it.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

I figured the short track race would be good for Mathieu, XCC results: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/results-albstadt-world-cup-xcc-round-2.html


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

Impressive to see Gunn-Rita up there! Amazing all-around rider.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Stonerider said:


> I figured the short track race would be good for Mathieu, XCC results: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/results-albstadt-world-cup-xcc-round-2.html


Yup and like I thought, the short track might just change things up. Nino will apparently NOT be in the top two lines. He might just find it a lot tougher to podium.

From Pinkbike - *Nino Schurter DNF'ed with a mechanical early on, which will put him behind in the UCI standings, and he will not be in the front two lines at the start of the XC on Sunday.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Well it probably good for spectators to see Nino come from behind, but damn it seems unfair that he has to start in 3rd row

But Mvdp is true animal , nothing to say, he crushed everybody


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

Raikzz said:


> Well it probably good for spectators to see Nino come from behind, but damn it seems unfair that he has to start in 3rd row
> 
> But Mvdp is true animal , nothing to say, he crushed everybody


I wouldn't say he crushed everybody, with 5 other riders within 5 seconds.

With Schurter coming from behind, this is going to be one hell of a race. Should be very interesting to see that front row battle it out. I'm still picking Schurter. Let's hope mechanicals don't decide the result!


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Well one thing is 5 seconds, other thing is how big gap he had and he cruised to finish line, i think simon andreassen had some clip on his insta story


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## meschenbruch (Jan 15, 2017)

Can we see a replay of the xcc anywhere?


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

any chance it will be muddy Sunday? If so, I gove MVdP the edge. All his cx racing really would help


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

khardrunner14 said:


> any chance it will be muddy Sunday? If so, I gove MVdP the edge. All his cx racing really would help


yup


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

This Catharine's power distribution from today.

The mid-point on the graph is about 300 watts, a cool 6 watts/kg. Catharine said it was the hardest race of her life. She was at he back of the lead group and ended up having to walk or track stand on the climb each lap.

Each bin is a 50 watts increment.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

https://www.facebook.com/NinoSchurt...99210888909/10156419157158910/?type=3&theater

Hmmm, sounds like a problem with eTap ?


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

^Reading the comments on his IG post that’s exactly right.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

He's bike got hacked, that's why etap stopped working.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

LMN said:


> This Catharine's power distribution from today.
> 
> The mid-point on the graph is about 300 watts, a cool 6 watts/kg. Catharine said it was the hardest race of her life. She was at he back of the lead group and ended up having to walk or track stand on the climb each lap.
> 
> ...


Oof. That deserves a milkshake or two.

Did she feel pretty gassed at the end, or did she have more power to put down?


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Raikzz said:


> https://www.facebook.com/NinoSchurt...99210888909/10156419157158910/?type=3&theater
> 
> Hmmm, sounds like a problem with eTap ?


Also looks like he's not going with Sidi this year?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

winters.benjamin said:


> Also looks like he's not going with Sidi this year?


He was wearing Scott last year.

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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> He was wearing Scott last year.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oops, you're right. Missed that.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Womens race was great, some pretty epic crashes on the slip and slides...er... cliffs


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Probably the worst thing is... and I'm very thankfull for Redbull Streaming it all, thats fab, but the site is terrible...and then using it on the PS4 is totally dismal (it wasnt so bad till the last update)...but hey, free stream shouldn't complain.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Neff was amazing. 

Great battle for the podium on the last lap. Couple spectacular crashes. Women's races are awesome, so many position changes and you really never know who is going have a good day or podium any more. Great race!

Looking forward to the Men's race, should be awesome.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

Looks like it’s not a good Sunday for the Specialized folks. First Langvad and and now Jaro and Sam. 


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

Sam down and out with tummy bug. He will be back next week 😊


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

rallymaniac said:


> Looks like it's not a good Sunday for the Specialized folks. First Langvad and and now Jaro and Sam.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Kate Courtney finished 10th, so not all was lost.


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

I’m wondering if many of the riders watch the Red Bull coverage after the race. 

Do riders try and show their sponsors how much screen time they got and such?

Also watching the race, with all the crashes they have, the stakes they use for the tape, are those solid or flexible? They look kind of scary...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Just saw that my friend Luke finished on the lead lap on his first senior level WC race.

That’s amazing. So happy for him. 


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

DOH! and I traded away VanDePoel at the last minute for my Forward Racing Fantasy team due to broken arm


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

same here. This race threw a lot of wrenches into my picks...


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

sooshee said:


> Kate Courtney finished 10th, so not all was lost.


Kate's first lap was spectacularly fast.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

10 DNF's in the men's race.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

Nice coverage today... Commentators need a list of some of the other riders...
Gaze Gaze Gaze Gaze VanDerPoel VanDerPoel VanDerPoel Gaze VanDerPoel...

Must kill them to have to talk about Tempier... Give the guy some credit!!


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Is it possible that having the Short Track (XCC) race on Friday is messing up some of the racers' preparations for Sunday's XCO race? What I mean is that traditionally with an XCO race on Sunday, don't most racers take it easy on Friday doing course recon and then do some high intensity openers on Saturday? Now, with the XCC race on Friday, they are doing super high intensity on Friday as well. To me, Nino looked way fresher than some of the other racers in the XCO race and he DNF'd in the XCC race on Friday. While MvdP, traditionally a fast starter, looked cooked at the beginning of the XCO race on Sunday after taking the win in the Friday race.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

On women race:

Yeah, Kate burned up in that first lap too quick, still great result for her, its only her second race as elite and she is already finding her rhythm in the elite field. One thing I noticed is how she was mashing the pedals throughout the race, that's strange as that is hardly her style, perhaps she was under geared. 

Yana's race was exceptionally good, she started way behind and managed her race extremely good, from less to more, she and other climbers will really struggle on the short track races it seems. Her teammate Tauber, did a great race as well. 

Jolanda is such a badass, just before starting everyone else was pretty stressed out while she was just smiling of joy, you can see she truly loves racing and destroying the field. She kind of shows certain traits that are similar to Nino's dominance. Taking the A line on that nasty drop while having a 2 minute gap in the last lap and she didn't even think it twice. 

On men race:

Fluckiger brothers doing a great race, both seem to be in great shape for the season.

Maxime and Thempier are two other riders that I think will be strong in the remaining races, they have been consistent and near the top. 

On Sam, we'll see how next race goes, but he does seem to be past his peak. 

Mvp will be a podium contender in the following races, I'm really liking his consistency this season and how he seems to be taking races with a bit more patience. 

Nino pretty much reminded everyone he will dominate the next races, whether he starts from behind or not.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

I thought that Jolanda's post-race interview was interesting, when she was asked if pulling the gap from the start was her plan and she asked if the gap was more or less than 2 minutes, because a 2 minute gap was her plan. That's an amazing amount of pre-race strategizing and race craft/control that she was able to hold that gap to just over 2 minutes almost the entire race, it looked like she might have had more in reserve as she didn't look out of control anywhere, and didn't look knackered at the end.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Le Duke said:


> Just saw that my friend Luke finished on the lead lap on his first senior level WC race.
> 
> That's amazing. So happy for him.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


does he ride for Trek? Just curious if it's a rider I met at Bonelli. He was training for HC race with the Trek team.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

trmn8er said:


> does he ride for Trek? Just curious if it's a rider I met at Bonelli. He was training for HC race with the Trek team.


He was on Bear Devo last year. He's on a Trek again this year but is doing the privateer thing. He's got a coaching business going to pay the bill. Gigantic motor and amazing skill on the bike.

https://www.instagram.com/lukevrouwenvelder

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## Dphoward (Jul 29, 2013)

Any idea what’s going on with Lea Davidson?? She was so great (still awesome) before she moved to cliff and now don’t hear much from her.


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## Ketzal (Oct 30, 2016)

*Jolanda's winning tire*

Does anybody know what tires Jolanda was riding. They said mud tires on the broadcast. I thought she was on Mitas tires? Do they even make a mud tire?

Edit, found them. She was running a Mitas Hyperion 2.1. Thinner width with taller lugs to better cut through the mud. Clearly she chose the right tire.

I was stunned to see some of the ladies on full dry weather XC tires! On that sort of surface a proper mud tire would have saved you a lot of time on the descents.

Obviously, some of the riders were stuck with their inferior sponsors products. Specialized for example don't have a proper XC mud tire in their range. The Fast Trak is useless in real mud. The Ground Control is better, but not really perfect for the conditions.

I wonder if the other teams learned a lesson here. A fast rolling tire is utterly useless if it causes a single significant crash. Rider confidence is immediately lost, the time gained is lost. Net result, you are slower.

Is it worth losing a race over? Why wouldn't you have the absolute best XC mud tire in the garage ready to run for these very conditions? Simply black out the competitors logos. Hell, they're covered in mud anyway.

I'm always stunned at riders and teams reluctance to fit more aggressive front tires in muddy conditions, I get it, weight, races are won on climbs, rolling resistance yada yada...but come the F on. If you're flopping all over the trail like a noob. SWAP YOUR DAMN TIRES!

Rant over.

I hope they all learned a lesson here.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Nino ran an Ardent Race front and not too sure of the rear. Ikon?


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## Skarhead (Mar 15, 2018)

Most of the riders where with maxxis beaver

Nino ran Ardent Race front and new maxxis prototype tyre rear

new maxxis tyre in the middle

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bi_5QHClhgE/


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

Stonerider said:


> Is it possible that having the Short Track (XCC) race on Friday is messing up some of the racers' preparations for Sunday's XCO race? What I mean is that traditionally with an XCO race on Sunday, don't most racers take it easy on Friday doing course recon and then do some high intensity openers on Saturday? Now, with the XCC race on Friday, they are doing super high intensity on Friday as well. To me, Nino looked way fresher than some of the other racers in the XCO race and he DNF'd in the XCC race on Friday. While MvdP, traditionally a fast starter, looked cooked at the beginning of the XCO race on Sunday after taking the win in the Friday race.


Nino was still killing it for about 15 minutes on Friday before he finally DNFd. His start was shot and once he got the bike going he must have been chasing the field like a madman. Also, don't forget these XCC races are only up to 25min so one would think that these WC guys will be able to recover after that in 48hours.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Skarhead said:


> Most of the riders where with maxxis beaver
> 
> Nino ran Ardent Race front and new maxxis prototype tyre rear
> 
> ...


Where did you see they were running the Maxxis Beaver? 
None of those are the Beaver tire?

Maxxis Beaver are an incredible mud tire, still fast rolling as well from my experience.


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

Ketzal said:


> I wonder if the other teams learned a lesson here. A fast rolling tire is utterly useless if it causes a single significant crash. Rider confidence is immediately lost, the time gained is lost. Net result, you are slower.
> 
> Is it worth losing a race over? Why wouldn't you have the absolute best XC mud tire in the garage ready to run for these very conditions? Simply black out the competitors logos. Hell, they're covered in mud


They seemed to be struggling for grip on some of the climbs too. Especially the women (their race, earlier in the day, looked muddier).


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## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

tewks13 said:


> Nice coverage today... Commentators need a list of some of the other riders...
> Gaze Gaze Gaze Gaze VanDerPoel VanDerPoel VanDerPoel Gaze VanDerPoel...
> 
> Must kill them to have to talk about Tempier... Give the guy some credit!!


It seemed like Gaze just quit because he couldn't hang with the front pack.


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## Skarhead (Mar 15, 2018)

Go to pinkbike xco article and you will see most of the teams who ran maxxis tyres were with beavers,


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Skarhead said:


> Go to pinkbike xco article and you will see most of the teams who ran maxxis tyres were with beavers,


I did look at the Pinkbike gallery. Which photos show Beavers?

Looks like Yana B might be on Beavers, but Eva Lechner was on Forecaster (rear at least), Nino with Ardent race on the front and VDP was on Ikons. I could really not tell any of the other tires Maxxis tires due to too much mud.

From what I can tell on Can Cycling galleries, it looks like Forecaster was used more. But again, many are too mud covered to even tell.


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

MI-XC said:


> It seemed like Gaze just quit because he couldn't hang with the front pack.


It certainly did seem like that.

On the other hand, one thing that came up during the women's race is that someone from the Specialized team seemed to indicate that if people weren't in position for a good result, they should just chill and not burn too many matches or risk a crash since Nove Mesto is next week.

Could also be a bit of both (not feeling well, not wanting to risk a crash/injury, plus mechanicals).

The points for the top spots is so large compared to the mid pack finishes that the calculus might be in his favor to just cut his losses.

(just speculating btw)


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

kevbikemad said:


> Where did you see they were running the Maxxis Beaver?
> None of those are the Beaver tire?
> 
> Maxxis Beaver are an incredible mud tire, still fast rolling as well from my experience.


The Beaver would have been the right tire for the day. However, most teams have switched to the Forecaster as their wet tires. At 2.2 a Forecaster is a bit too wide for those conditions.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

Udyr said:


> It certainly did seem like that.
> 
> On the other hand, one thing that came up during the women's race is that someone from the Specialized team seemed to indicate that if people weren't in position for a good result, they should just chill and not burn too many matches or risk a crash since Nove Mesto is next week.
> 
> ...


Fairly close. DNF due to a near 'Dumoulin moment' with stomach cramps and the flat tyre put the nail in the coffin. Weighing up continuing sub-par on a risky track with low points and pain. Chance of injury not worth it when lots of racing still ahead.


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

insidertrading said:


> Fairly close. DNF due to a near 'Dumoulin moment' with stomach cramps and the flat tyre put the nail in the coffin. Weighing up continuing sub-par on a risky track with low points and pain. Chance of injury not worth it when lots of racing still ahead.


Makes sense. 25UCI points is not a good trade for pooping your pants on camera.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

westin said:


> Kate's first lap was spectacularly fast.


She pushes such a large gear it's surprising.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Udyr said:


> Makes sense. 25UCI points is not a good trade for pooping your pants on camera.


I agree, its probably worth it for the Olympics though.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

I believe Sunday's race was the first time I've noticed Nino running mismatched tires. He was using Maxxis Ardent Race up front and some new prototype Maxxis tire on the rear. I guess he gets all the good stuff before the rest of the racers.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Nove mesto short track is going to be live on redbull tv!


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Just re-watched the women's race. Looks like Catharine had some choice words for PFP coming through the start loop, like "do some work or get off my wheel'.....


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Raikzz said:


> Well it probably good for spectators to see Nino come from behind, but damn it seems unfair that he has to start in 3rd row


Anyone has more insight into this how starting order is set? Even if Nino DNF short track, he was still 4th or 5th in overall WC before start of Sunday's XCO race, which should place him well into first line. I'm pretty sure he's quite high (probably by far the first) on UCI ranking list.
So based on what ranking he started from 3rd row?


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

It's not based on ranking.

Short race start order is based on UCI ranking if i'm correct ( or Overall standings ) , and the riders who finish short track in TOP16 ( or was it 18 ), get to choose spots for 2 front rows for Main race.
Spots for 3rd row and beyond are based on UCI ranking again, thus Nino with his best ranking got to choose first in 3rd row


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

Raikzz said:


> It's not based on ranking.
> 
> Short race start order is based on UCI ranking if i'm correct ( or Overall standings ) , and the riders who finish short track in TOP16 ( or was it 18 ), get to choose spots for 2 front rows for Main race.
> Spots for 3rd row and beyond are based on UCI ranking again, thus Nino with his best ranking got to choose first in 3rd row


Yep. XCC and U23 start order based on top 16 world cup points then UCI ranking. Elite XC start order based on 1st 16 of most recent XCC then UCI ranking.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Ah ok, that's clear then. I guess that's pretty much only way to "force" riders start XCC 2 days before main race


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

winters.benjamin said:


> Just re-watched the women's race. Looks like Catharine had some choice words for PFP coming through the start loop, like "do some work or get off my wheel'.....


Alternative perspective:

PFP found a sucker who'd drag her around the course.

If CP doesn't like it, she has options, which it appears she chose not to use. That's on her, not PFP.

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## Litemike (Sep 13, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Alternative perspective:
> 
> PFP found a sucker who'd drag her around the course.
> 
> ...


I agree, don't blame somebody because you can't drop them.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Alternative perspective:
> 
> PFP found a sucker who'd drag her around the course.
> 
> ...


Mountain bike racing isn't road racing. The only option that you have when someone is sitting on your wheel is to ride and remember.

I can guarantee that next time PFP is on front and chasing and Catharine is on her wheel, Catharine will not be pulling through. Where as Catharine will trade pull for pull with riders like Jolanda, Gunrita, and Annika.

The danger of being a wheels suck is that nobody will work with you ever. This is why wheels sucks never win a lot of races. Occasionally the negative racing works out for them, but most of the time it doesn't.


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

LMN said:


> Mountain bike racing isn't road racing. The only option that you have when someone is sitting on your wheel is to ride and remember.


Yup, did alot of this recently with a guy who never pulled and clogged us up in single track. Tried communicating on numerous occasions and never changed. That dude got dropped like a bad habit in the last 6hr race because a group of us were sick of it, had a long solo ride in the mud that didn't look fun.


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## wheelzqc (Aug 31, 2016)

Similarly on the road... people will shutoff a move if it's with a wheelsucker. Why would you go long and deep with a wheelsucker ?


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

LMN said:


> Mountain bike racing isn't road racing. The only option that you have when someone is sitting on your wheel is to ride and remember.
> 
> I can guarantee that next time PFP is on front and chasing and Catharine is on her wheel, Catharine will not be pulling through. Where as Catharine will trade pull for pull with riders like Jolanda, Gunrita, and Annika.
> 
> The danger of being a wheels suck is that nobody will work with you ever. This is why wheels sucks never win a lot of races. Occasionally the negative racing works out for them, but most of the time it doesn't.


Serious question...Does sitting on someones wheel matter that much in a mountain bike race like that one? I'm not capable of the speeds that any of these women go, so maybe as the speed increases it matters more? Seemed like that course was all either up or down, with exception to the start/finish area.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

LMN said:


> The danger of being a wheels suck is that nobody will work with you ever. This is why wheels sucks never win a lot of races. Occasionally the negative racing works out for them, but most of the time it doesn't.


That's not the first time I've seen her do that. Seems pretty classless for a lady with so much talent. What if Annika body slammed her? That'd be pretty cool... Just sayin...


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

joeduda said:


> Serious question...Does sitting on someones wheel matter that much in a mountain bike race like that one? I'm not capable of the speeds that any of these women go, so maybe as the speed increases it matters more? Seemed like that course was all either up or down, with exception to the start/finish area.


The crossover point between rolling resistance and aerodynamics is around 12mph (if I am remembering correctly).


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

Udyr said:


> The crossover point between rolling resistance and aerodynamics is around 12mph (if I am remembering correctly).


That's way slower than what i would have expected. Been riding for a long time and with the exception of dirt roads and two track, never thought drafting helped me. Maybe the pacing but not drafting.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I find myself drafting when ever possible. If someone comes by, I try to grab on (assuming the conditions allow). We may only be going 10 MPH up a fire road, but drafting isn't going to slow you down, unless you are slowing down to stay in the draft. Though I am willing to take a turn if it is collaborative.


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

joeduda said:


> That's way slower than what i would have expected. Been riding for a long time and with the exception of dirt roads and two track, never thought drafting helped me. Maybe the pacing but not drafting.


It's a lot less noticeable at lower speeds, but it definitely makes a difference. We might be talking about only 5-10w but at the top level where very small deltas make a difference, people will search for any edge they can.

Also, if you ever ride in ERG mode on a smart trainer, you know that even just 5w can make a difference in the way you feel.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Draft whenever possible. Even if you’re on a dirt road climb. Why? There could be a headwind, and that is not inconsequential. 


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Drafting is a big part of racing mountain bikes. Even if your only going 10mph you can go from 100% effort down to 90-95%. Over the course of a race this can be a huge advantage saving energy for the finish line.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Drafting in mountainbike racing works and I do/did it whenever possible. Luckily most mountainbike racers have very little road racing experience and will blindly pull through a headwind, thanks. The situation in this race is standard racing, if you want someone to pull move over if they don't you have a decision sit up or continue to ride. No sense getting worked up it's a 50m straight, not a 150k break where they NEED to work.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Draft whenever possible. Even if you're on a dirt road climb. Why? There could be a headwind, and that is not inconsequential.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep, it's really about airspeed. On flat ground with no wind it might only require 100 watts to maintain 12mph but add a 10mph headwind and you'd have to double your watts for the same speed.


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yep, it's really about airspeed. On flat ground with no wind it might only require 100 watts to maintain 12mph but add a 10mph headwind and you'd have to double your watts for the same speed.


I know all about the damn headwinds this year. I've relocated away from my local trail and have been riding a lot of gravel roads through open farmer fields. Seems that the wind never stops so far this spring. It's calm tonight I'm going riding! Sorry for the thread derail, carry on.


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## Corpus.iuris. (Apr 20, 2018)

LMN said:


> This Catharine's power distribution from today.
> 
> The mid-point on the graph is about 300 watts, a cool 6 watts/kg. Catharine said it was the hardest race of her life. She was at he back of the lead group and ended up having to walk or track stand on the climb each lap.
> 
> ...


Very nice post, it give us some point to compare with our riders. I have also an athlete who raced at same race. She had around 5.7w/kg for 9min, and 6.6 w/kg for 6min. You would say that 0.3 w/kg doesnt mean a lot, but looking at race results it played a big role =)

Also I sent you some questions on pm, hope you could give us some pointers from your wc experince.


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## mtb_phd (Jun 28, 2017)

It's crazy how mud at some places is like ice and others it's fine!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

joeduda said:


> Serious question...Does sitting on someones wheel matter that much in a mountain bike race like that one? I'm not capable of the speeds that any of these women go, so maybe as the speed increases it matters more? Seemed like that course was all either up or down, with exception to the start/finish area.


It is really depends on the situation.

In the above situation, Catharine would have been better to ignore Pauline just drive it. The start finish is only 300 meters or so, any gains made by drafting were marginal at best. Trying to get Pauline to pull through was a distraction that ultimately slowed her down.

Catharine didn't have great legs on the day and her looking for help on the start finish stretch showed that. If she had good legs then she wouldn't have been worrying about the riders behind her. And to be fair Pauline didn't have good legs either, when Catharine asked her to pull through Pauline's response was "I can't"


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

No Belomoina in XCC today?


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## stewiefied (Jul 3, 2017)

She wrote on instagram that she got sick after albstadt and is at least sitting out the short track, xco is a maybe.

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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

I hope the XCC gets modified a bit next season.

It would be great if the XCC counted towards World Cup (and UCI) points. However, I'd like to see World Cup points still dictate start order. 

Then you would incentivize racers doing the event to boost their start positions and overall ranking hopes. But you wouldn't have to start 3rd row for a race if something unexpected happens or you're ill.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

In case you forgot or didn't hear - the XCC short races are starting on Red Bull right now!!
Go Jolanda, Catherine, and Kate!


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

XCC race live https://www.redbull.tv/video/AP-1VR6YDXF52111/xc-short-track-en-nove-mesto


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Glad Redbull is broadcasting the STXC. So, it you are a racer who does a new of these & consistently finish near the back/out of the top 16, when do you stop and save yourself for the XCO? No Yana or Maja in today's short track. BB said Yana doesn't think it suits her, so sitting out.

And Nino just crashed... That's another issue.

Edit - and now Marrotte crashed


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

The XCC sure shakes up the starting order for the main features, the Canadian gals are fairly far down the list, although Haley Smith seems to be doing very well at these short/fast events, 13th is a really good finish, a great starting spot for her on Sunday. But Gunn-Rita finishing 4th and Sabine Spitz finishing 10th in the XCC, that has to rub some salt in the wounds of many of the younger riders.


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## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

Those were fun to watch! I think Nino can't leave it to a sprint if he wants to win against Gaze and MvDP.


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## sducomb (Jul 2, 2007)

briscoelab said:


> I hope the XCC gets modified a bit next season.
> 
> It would be great if the XCC counted towards World Cup (and UCI) points. However, I'd like to see World Cup points still dictate start order.
> 
> Then you would incentivize racers doing the event to boost their start positions and overall ranking hopes. But you wouldn't have to start 3rd row for a race if something unexpected happens or you're ill.


It is. Up to 125 points for the winner.
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/...40/47/4-MTB-rulechange_01012018_E_English.PDF


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

I remember Last season Yana was on XX1 11 speed because she wanted the lower weight but that seemed uncommon. It will be interesting to see how many WC XC riders go with the new XTR 11 speed to save weight. They are claiming it's like 80g lighter which is pretty good, and I'm sure they will be very happy that Shimano finally came out with cassettes that are competitive with Sram's in terms of weight. 

Personally I'll still ride 12 speed, because I'm not gonna buy both, and because for training and daily riding the extra easy gear is good.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

I personally liked this XCC race. The first one I didn't see it because it wasn't in redbull.tv, but I'm guessing went fairly similar. 

However, as a rider I'm not sure if its better or something to look forward to. The bottom field can actually fight for something on the XCC, while the top ones have to do damage control, but at what price?

These races look awfully tight and dangerous, which put the top riders in an added risk, that have no way to skip if they want to fight for the UCI WC points. 

Tactic wise, there seems to not be much in there, basically these races are defined by fitness and power profile. There is no advantage to lead the group whatsoever and they seem to be defined in a last lap attack. It's also impossible to create a gap with the course profile as it was. Hopefully they analyze all this and bring changes next year, as it is right now its great entertainment for us, viewers, but for the sake of the athletes and sport development it doesn't seem quite there yet.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Kate Courtney was strong, but leading for so many laps, makes you wonder if she knew what she was doing at all, could have used that energy way better. 

Kulhavy had bad luck, however he doesn't seem strong for sunday, we will see. 

Anika top end power is amazing, I was actually surprised PFP could stay on her wheel, she did draft the entire race same as Anika so both have energy in reserve.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

TDLover said:


> However, as a rider I'm not sure if its better or something to look forward to. The bottom field can actually fight for something on the XCC, while the top ones have to do damage control, but at what price?
> 
> These races look awfully tight and dangerous, which put the top riders in an added risk, that have no way to skip if they want to fight for the UCI WC points.


Even Nino thinks it's dangerous. Crashing sucks & can ruin a season pretty quick. They need to really think about how fast these courses are, loose gravel is not a good idea. A few close calls in the U turn.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

TDLover said:


> Kate Courtney was strong, but leading for so many laps, makes you wonder if she knew what she was doing at all, could have used that energy way better.


As a former roadie, that race made complete sense to me. Team orders. Junior does the work for the senior member... sets pace, wears the pack down. Senior sits in and conserves energy for the last push


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

jrob300 said:


> As a former roadie, that race made complete sense to me. Team orders. Junior does the work for the senior member... sets pace, wears the pack down. Senior sits in and conserves energy for the last push


Looked like what Sky did for that bonkers, solo, 80km attack by Froome today.

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## givemefive (May 26, 2007)

The large gravel and loose mulch racing surfaces confuse me also.. Why add so much danger to an already contentious race.

Fun event to watch though.


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## nya (Oct 22, 2011)

jrob300 said:


> As a former roadie, that race made complete sense to me. Team orders. Junior does the work for the senior member... sets pace, wears the pack down. Senior sits in and conserves energy for the last push


But it is not a road race, no team tactics, no team orders => Kate herself admitted to tactical errors


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

nya said:


> But it is not a road race, no team tactics, no team orders => Kate herself admitted to tactical errors


Could have fooled me.

Either way, she did a pretty amazing job of blowing up the field.

Also, I was impressed by how easily PFP floated up to the front. Did it many times. Looked like she was working half as hard as everyone else for most of the race.

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## nya (Oct 22, 2011)

Le Duke said:


> Could have fooled me.
> 
> Either way, she did a pretty amazing job of blowing up the field.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you can tell she transfers all that road racing tactics experience to the STXC really well. Always there but never working harder than has to, perfect position in every situation and she was ready for Annika's attack (just not as powerful) .


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

nya said:


> Yeah, you can tell she transfers all that road racing tactics experience to the STXC really well. Always there but never working harder than has to, perfect position in every situation and she was ready for Annika's attack (just not as powerful) .


Yep, those riders who have experience on the road and in crits are going to be more confident and experienced in racing within a fast and close packed group. I know Sam and Mathieu have that experience, but who else in the Men's XCC field has some roady background?


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## nya (Oct 22, 2011)

insidertrading said:


> Yep, those riders who have experience on the road and in crits are going to be more confident and experienced in racing within a fast and close packed group. I know Sam and Mathieu have that experience, but who else in the Men's XCC field has some roady background?


Kulhavy done fair share of road racing. And Cink was in a road pro team for a year, but he is not strong enough unless there is good amount of climbing.


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## Ketzal (Oct 30, 2016)

The XCC race is basically just a crit on mixed surfaces. The fact it's on MTBs doesn't change the dynamics a lot as the courses so far have been dead easy. Gaze or possibly MVP will win every single race excluding crashes or mechanicals. Annika will win every race in the women's. It's basically, ride fast in a group, let morons ride at the front, sit in, sprint for the win. Rinse and repeat. The riders with the correct power profile will win every time. That's basically all the larger athletes who have a sprint. On another note. Drafting is extremely important in a XCC race with so much high speed flat terrain. There's huge savings to be made. The riders were traveling at well over 35kph for much of the lap. Over 35kph sitting bolt uptight on a MTB is 300 watts steady state. That's basically a 100 watt saving drafting behind a single rider. 130 ish behind two. Add that up over 25mins! I kinda enjoyed watching the XCC, but could also never watch another one and wouldn't care. You'd need more climbing to change the predictable results, or significantly more technical terrain. We have that on a Sunday, it's called an XC race. I'm struggling to imagine an affordable course that would support exciting short track racing that wasn't just a pack race with a final sprint.


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

sducomb said:


> It is. Up to 125 points for the winner.
> http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/...40/47/4-MTB-rulechange_01012018_E_English.PDF


You missed my point. I know they get points, which I'm OK with.

I just don't want XCC results to dictate start order for the XCO event. I want overall WC points to still do that.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Ketzal said:


> The XCC race is basically just a crit on mixed surfaces. The fact it's on MTBs doesn't change the dynamics a lot as the courses so far have been dead easy. Gaze or possibly MVP will win every single race excluding crashes or mechanicals. Annika will win every race in the women's. It's basically, ride fast in a group, let morons ride at the front, sit in, sprint for the win. Rinse and repeat. The riders with the correct power profile will win every time. That's basically all the larger athletes who have a sprint. On another note. Drafting is extremely important in a XCC race with so much high speed flat terrain. There's huge savings to be made. The riders were traveling at well over 35kph for much of the lap. Over 35kph sitting bolt uptight on a MTB is 300 watts steady state. That's basically a 100 watt saving drafting behind a single rider. 130 ish behind two. Add that up over 25mins! I kinda enjoyed watching the XCC, but could also never watch another one and wouldn't care. You'd need more climbing to change the predictable results, or significantly more technical terrain. We have that on a Sunday, it's called an XC race. I'm struggling to imagine an affordable course that would support exciting short track racing that wasn't just a pack race with a final sprint.


Of the four XCC races thus far, I've only watched the NMNM women's race. It resembled many women's crits: a moderately paced procession with a few tentative attacks but no real efforts to get off the front.

If people are going to ride at the front and DON't want to be pulling the field, only to get jumped in the last lap, they need to race aggressively. Meaning, attack. Snap the elastic on the field and get a group of 3-4 women off the front trading pulls and racing intelligently. Make Annika work instead of riding wheels the entire race. Kate Courtney can say she wasn't riding for Annika all she wants, but that's what she effectively did. She burned a lot of strong women off the back, kept them there, and also made the pack small enough to guarantee herself a second row start on Sunday. If people attack, they will force Kate Courtney to work a lot harder, sooner. She'll either have to relent to preserve her own position, or blow up, forcing Annika to the front.

I'm guessing PFP or Neff will win if any of the following XCC races have a hill of any significance. Hardly large riders, BTW.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I was excited about short track but after watching it on Red Bull I am not so sure. Either you have a cross country championship series or you can muck it up with a crit race. Tempier (spelling) just doesn't have the horse power that the big boys do and loses valuable points.

Also a good chance of crashes that can take riders out. I am only going to count points during the real races to determine who I think the series winner is.

It will be interesting to see if they keep the short track races next year. Personally I hope not.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

richwolf said:


> I was excited about short track but after watching it on Red Bull I am not so sure. Either you have a cross country championship series or you can muck it up with a crit race. Tempier (spelling) just doesn't have the horse power that the big boys do and loses valuable points.
> 
> Also a good chance of crashes that can take riders out. I am only going to count points during the real races to determine who I think the series winner is.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if they keep the short track races next year. Personally I hope not.


I share much of this POV. The ST race is a different discipline, and to weight the ST points that heavy (1/2 of what XC race earns) seems to dilute what I see as the real WC XC series. All of a sudden you may have riders at or near the top in points largely because of their ST result. Meanwhile others who's XC result points would have clearly been higher than those with excellent ST results, yet they pay a big price points wise. Perhaps lower (or eliminate) the points for the ST race even more, and still have the Short Track race outcome determine the starting lineup for the XC race.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

trmn8er said:


> I share much of this POV. The ST race is a different discipline, and to weight the ST points that heavy (1/2 of what XC race earns) seems to dilute what I see as the real WC XC series. All of a sudden you may have riders at or near the top in points largely because of their ST result. Meanwhile others who's XC result points would have clearly been higher than those with excellent ST results, yet they pay a big price points wise. Perhaps lower (or eliminate) the points for the ST race even more, and still have the Short Track race outcome determine the starting lineup for the XC race.


Originally I would have thought that too, that riders who do not normally feature in the XCO would have been pushed up the World Cup leader board 'artificially'. But at this stage the top 10 of the Men's XCC are more or less featuring the top 10 of the XCO as well. So yes the half value points of the short track are diluting, but by lessening the effect of one DNF or bad day in the XCO for the top placed riders. In the past one mechanical could have destroyed a whole seasons chance of a top World Cup placing but with 10 lots of '250' points then the top riders still have a chance after one bad race. And although the XCC needs a different skill set, the best technical riders seem to have no problem dealing with that. At the end of the day a good rider will come out on top regardless of the format. Plus the XCC has minimal impact to the UCI ranking (cat 3 points of 10 for a win).


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

insidertrading said:


> Originally I would have thought that too, that riders who do not normally feature in the XCO would have been pushed up the World Cup leader board 'artificially'. But at this stage the top 10 of the Men's XCC are more or less featuring the top 10 of the XCO as well. So yes the half value points of the short track are diluting, but by lessening the effect of one DNF or bad day in the XCO for the top placed riders. In the past one mechanical could have destroyed a whole seasons chance of a top World Cup placing but with 10 lots of '250' points then the top riders still have a chance after one bad race. And although the XCC needs a different skill set, the best technical riders seem to have no problem dealing with that. At the end of the day a good rider will come out on top regardless of the format. Plus the XCC has minimal impact to the UCI ranking (cat 3 points of 10 for a win).


And then there's the Yana issue. Top of the XCO, not a hope in an XCC. 3rd row starts...
Might as well not race the XCC and keep to a perfect build up to the XCO.


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## JasperGr (Sep 3, 2015)

What time will the womans and mens start? Can’t find it. Thanks


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## Corpus.iuris. (Apr 20, 2018)

XCC is disaster for riders who are not in top 40 riders. Now every effort or dream to get in in top 40 is gone. Extra points for the first 40 riders has closet all doors for riders who try to collect points and have better start position on wc.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

Corpus.iuris. said:


> XCC is disaster for riders who are not in top 40 riders. Now every effort or dream to get in in top 40 is gone. Extra points for the first 40 riders has closet all doors for riders who try to collect points and have better start position on wc.


The first 16 places are selected from World Cup standings but 17 to 40 are from UCI ranking (i.e. Not World Cup) and as XCC only adds 10 UCI points for each win (and after 5th place with 1 point, 6th to 40 get zero), all is not doom and gloom.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

JasperGr said:


> What time will the womans and mens start? Can't find it. Thanks
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk


On he redbull site it will tell you the start time in your local time, just go to the app/website for the even and it tells you.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

That was a pretty intense last few laps of the womens.


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## dwperry (Dec 8, 2013)

I thought for sure that if Jolanda led down the last descent she would get a gap to win but Langvad stayed with her down it. Incredible racing


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## Corpus.iuris. (Apr 20, 2018)

insidertrading said:


> The first 16 places are selected from World Cup standings but 17 to 40 are from UCI ranking (i.e. Not World Cup) and as XCC only adds 10 UCI points for each win (and after 5th place with 1 point, 6th to 40 get zero), all is not doom and gloom.


Your agruments are correct but they are not telling complete picture. The riders who compete in xcc get a lot points for wc overall. Also the points for invinidual ranking are not big but still there is advantage. Everything is going in way to top 40 riders, the others have now even harder job to improve.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

That was some good hard racing


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Sam Gaze, damaged nerve in elbow 
Nothing broken though.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

MvdP’s IG says his wrist hurt from the start and was cause of his crash. A few days off to recover then back he says.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

MattMay said:


> MvdP's IG says his wrist hurt from the start and was cause of his crash. A few days off to recover then back he says.


He was doing pretty well, but hitting that tree seemed like a total lack of concentration.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Great races! Hands down the best men's race Ive seen in a long time, if not ever. 

About the xcc,I don't see it being an issue for those outside the top 40. Their chances of moving up through the back of the field is limited anyway unless your a fast racer that is normally out front. Plus I think that front row starting should be based on skills and not the ability to make it to high point events to gather them. If you're slow your not gaining enough points to be front row anyway so it doesn't really matter. The racing is much more exciting and less predictable (for the most part). Plus racers are having to work on other aspects of their training to stay competitive. Other then the danger of injury, these people are pros and seem to recover fast enough. 

With that said I'd still rather a flying qualifying lap to determine start positions. They're already having to do hard efforts on the course as part of their training, might as well put it to good use.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

On women race:

Anika and Neff battle was great, Anika explained it pretty well in the post race interview, she was struggling in the last lap and just sticking to Neff payed off for her in that sprint, despite Neff doing everything correct. Probably the only thing that could have worked better for Neff would be to start the sprint sooner as Nino did, just to see if Anika's sprint can survive a long effort. 

PFP will be a WC contender it seems, doing solid races. Kate Courtney also doing solid stuff, she will develop into a fine racer. 

Batty proved she is back at it again, nice race for her. Pendrel form is bad this season, although I think her performance will improve over the rest of the season, same as Yana's. 


On men race:

Nino really has learned how to deal with MVP, he always breaks him in some way. This just shows how good Nino is at reading other riders. 

Mvp crash wasn't because his wrist was hurting, he was just tired of Nino pushing him and he was too tired, unfocused and couldn't handle the bike properly. Even Rob and Bart called in just before him crashing, they could see it coming. 

I was impressed by Cooper's race, it was great and his post race interview comments really show how he is humble and a quality cyclist, perhaps Sam can get some pointers from him.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

TDLover said:


> On women race:
> 
> Anika and Neff battle was great, Anika explained it pretty well in the post race interview, she was struggling in the last lap and just sticking to Neff payed off for her in that sprint, despite Neff doing everything correct. Probably the only thing that could have worked better for Neff would be to start the sprint sooner as Nino did, just to see if Anika's sprint can survive a long effort.
> 
> ...


MVdP had a bolt surgically implanted in his wrist less than 2 weeks ago and the rough track of Nove Mesto was making it hard for him to hold the bike upright let alone win.
As for Sam, what did you not like about his most recent short track post interview? Did he need to do a shout out to you or something?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I sort of got tired of all the MVDP hype over the last two plus seasons and he has yet to win a legit XC race much like he has never won the elite world championship in cyclocross.

I would think that the poor saps that came up in the Jr. and Under 23 ranks might have be rightfully rankled by him getting all the press. 

Not hating on the guy but when someone gets anointed as the next great hope it is good if they have to earn it.
I think he might be finding XC MTB a little more competitive than cyclocross. He has a huge motor for sure but he seems more of a one hour racer than a 90 minute racer and more of a flatter course racer where he can use his speed and power to his advantage.


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## nya (Oct 22, 2011)

insidertrading said:


> MVdP had a bolt surgically implanted in his wrist less than 2 weeks ago and the rough track of Nove Mesto was making it hard for him to hold the bike upright let alone win.
> As for Sam, what did you not like about his most recent short track post interview? Did he need to do a shout out to you or something?


Sam's last one was good, I bet that Specialized paid someone to help him with his public persona and I hope he keeps doing interviews like that. But it takes more than one interview to redeem himself in my eyes. Cooper is natural, he just acts as nice, down to earth, but super fast athlete without trying.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

nya said:


> Sam's last one was good, I bet that Specialized paid someone to help him with his public persona and I hope he keeps doing interviews like that. But it takes more than one interview to redeem himself in my eyes. Cooper is natural, he just acts as nice, down to earth, but super fast athlete without trying.


You are bang on! Anton is just a nice guy. Gaze on the other hand, could be a nice guy but he seems to have a hard time showing it ( I dont think he is a good guy at all but thats just my opinion)


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## afalts (Dec 7, 2011)

richwolf said:


> I sort of got tired of all the MVDP hype over the last two plus seasons and he has yet to win a legit XC race much like he has never won the elite world championship in cyclocross.
> 
> I would think that the poor saps that came up in the Jr. and Under 23 ranks might have be rightfully rankled by him getting all the press.
> 
> ...


He won elite cyclocross world champs in 2015, racing up when he should have been racing second year of U23. Not to mention countless elite world cup / superprestige wins as a U23. Did you know he was also junior world champion for CX both years and road world champion for second year of junior. Take a look at his wiki for full results, he deserves a fair amount of hype.

I don't disagree that he's struggling with the pace of Nino over the 90 minutes, but Nino is also arguably the greatest xco racer ever, and MTB is MVP's secondary sport.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

richwolf said:


> I sort of got tired of all the MVDP hype over the last two plus seasons and he has yet to win a legit XC race much like he has never won the elite world championship in cyclocross.
> 
> I would think that the poor saps that came up in the Jr. and Under 23 ranks might have be rightfully rankled by him getting all the press.
> 
> ...


Might want to check your facts there, chief.

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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

insidertrading said:


> MVdP had a bolt surgically implanted in his wrist less than 2 weeks ago and the rough track of Nove Mesto was making it hard for him to hold the bike upright let alone win.
> As for Sam, what did you not like about his most recent short track post interview? Did he need to do a shout out to you or something?


I was referring to how Anton graciously took defeat, despite being literally an inch close to winning. Does Sam a gracious loser?, we have seen he isn't.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

TDLover said:


> I was referring to how Anton graciously took defeat, despite being literally an inch close to winning. Does Sam a gracious loser?, we have seen he isn't.


He went over and gave MVdP a big hug after he was beaten by him at Albstadt, and again praised him on Social. People will see what they want to see.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

insidertrading said:


> He went over and gave MVdP a big hug after he was beaten by him at Albstadt, and again praised him on Social. People will see what they want to see.


Yes don't worry, if you haven't seen nothing wrong with Sam, carry on. I wish both kiwis future success and hope for Sam's redemption.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Wow, just got to finally see the mens race, carnage and awesomeness (not the carnage).
But yeah you could just see MVdP, power power power... Nino atttacks, bzzzz explode, crash


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

Miffed that Anton didn’t quite get there, he rode a damn fine race. Top result all the same.


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## m3bas (Dec 24, 2011)

VdP still doesn’t seem to carry speed to the level of Nino and some of those guys, he just looks slightly awkward to me, always having to close little gaps which obviously pays a big price after a while.
Compare that to him in CX races, it’s unbelievable how quick he is.
Just shows how ridiculously good the full time MTB’ers are technically.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

m3bas said:


> VdP still doesn't seem to carry speed to the level of Nino and some of those guys, he just looks slightly awkward to me, always having to close little gaps which obviously pays a big price after a while.
> Compare that to him in CX races, it's unbelievable how quick he is.
> Just shows how ridiculously good the full time MTB'ers are technically.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually nobody carries speed like Nino does. The only one with comparable skills when it comes to pumping every kind of terrain seems to be Florian Vogel. But he isn`t on the same level of fitness as Nino. There are some guys like Manuel Fumic and Marco Fontana who have great descending skills but nobody looks so smooth and effortless like Nino.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

I think Fumic and Mathias Flückiger are also very skilled and doesn't fall behind Nino on the descends


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Might want to check your facts there, chief.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya sorry wrong about the 2015 world cross championship but I think I got the rest of it right.

I think that there are a lot of other younger XC racers looking to dethrone Shurter other than MVDP.


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## MudderNutter (Oct 23, 2014)

richwolf said:


> Ya sorry wrong about the 2015 world cross championship but I think I got the rest of it right.
> 
> I think that there are a lot of other younger XC racers looking to dethrone Shurter other than MVDP.


Those other younger riders have to earn the press. I'd argue that every single rider out there wants to dethrone Shurter 

mvdp is just a great story. Incredibly accomplished cyclist switching up disciplines, and going toe to toe with the worlds best before he burns up or has a crash. Can't say that he is boring to watch!

That being said if you don't like mvdp I can see why it annoys you. I'd be open to some coverage on up and coming riders, and maybe even showcasing some other battles happening.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

90mm is a bit long for me. If they had a 80mm/-25* option, I'd be in right now.

Also, the yellow is a bit loud. Matte black would be great.

Nino Schurter riding new Syncros Fraser iC SL cockpit - Mtbr.com


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

The finishes were great for both races, even though I prefer that mountain bike races be decided on dirt trails instead of asphalt - when it's that close on the dirt a sprint finish is ok. I especially liked the men's finish sprint because it was from so far out that it was about strength instead of a cat and mouse tactical game. 

It's awesome that other riders are challenging Schurter, even though I'm a big fan of Schurter. It makes the racing so much more interesting. Someday I'd love to see Mathias Fluckiger win a World Cup race before the young guns take over as well - he deserves one after years of entertaining racing in a period dominated by Schurter and Absalon. 

It's a shame that Catharine has had a rough start to the season, but nice to see other Canadians now having great results. 

Personally I don't like the short track races at all but I'm sure it's great fun for the fans on-site to watch. It looks like something that's going to be a tough transition for racers who are traditionally slower starters and might be too far along in their careers to truly change that.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

scottg said:


> Personally I don't like the short track races at all but I'm sure it's great fun for the fans on-site to watch. It looks like something that's going to be a tough transition for racers who are traditionally slower starters and might be too far along in their careers to truly change that.


I love the short track addition to the WC weekend. But, I'm sure that addition also hastened Absalon's 2nd retirement announcement...along with his allergies and diminished fitness/strength from the normal aging process. Losing 1 to 2% at that level is all it takes to go from challenging for the win and finishing mid pack.


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## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

All I know is we need more Americans in the sport.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Just watched the men’s finish. If Cooper had played that a bit better he’d have a WC win. He should have stayed in the slipstream until the last 100m or so. He was never in Nino’s wake from 50m+ before the top of the hill. 

Tried to drag race a larger, more powerful racer and lost. Imagine that. Although Neff's tactics were far, far worse. I don't know what the hell she was thinking. Not only did she completely stop putting power into the pedals but she might have hit the brakes. 

In other news, my friend got his first WC points with 55th. Pretty cool. 


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> If Cooper had played that a bit better he'd have a WC win. He should have stayed in the slipstream until the last 100m or so. He was never in Nino's wake from 50m+ before the top of the hill.
> 
> Tried to drag race a larger, more powerful racer and lost. Imagine that. Although Neff's tactics were far, far worse. I don't know what the hell she was thinking. Not only did she completely stop putting power into the pedals but she might have hit the brakes.


Back to the difference between road racing and MTB XC.... anyone with road bike, especially Crit experience, would know this.... XCST will help with some of these tactical techniques.


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## Ketzal (Oct 30, 2016)

100% agreed. MTB riders at world cup level should definitely add in some proper sprint training. It's vital on some courses. I'm not just talking the sprint power training etc, I'm talking tactics. I believe Anton would have won that race if he'd executed the perfect sprint. I don't think Neff can beat Annika in a one on one sprint regardless of drafting. The power deficit is simply too great. No question Anton should have sat on the wheel till the final 50 to 75m. On a MTB your sprint seems very short. Maybe the extra rolling resistance, the upright position, who knows. It certainly feels harder than on a road bike. It's probably just the extreme effort for an hour and half prior. Sitting on until the final 50m takes immense patience and confidence in your final kick. I regularly win road races with this move and weigh only 64kg. The secret is the precise timing. It's literally 2 to 3 seconds where you are more powerful than the larger athlete who is fading. Sustained against the wind the larger more powerful athlete will nearly always win. It's kinda amusing really. Maybe many of these riders have never watched a road race.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

Ketzal said:


> 100% agreed. MTB riders at world cup level should definitely add in some proper sprint training. It's vital on some courses.


I'm not a huge fan of XCST or XC courses with long, straight paved finishes.... I'd rather see races won or lost in the dirt, but no one asked me. Formats evolve and marketing and fan support is everything. If the sport continues down this road (no pun intended), you are absolutely correct.


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## pk1 (Mar 25, 2010)

jrob300 said:


> I'm not a huge fan of XCST or XC courses with long, straight paved finishes.... I'd rather see races won or lost in the dirt, but no one asked me. Formats evolve and marketing and fan support is everything. If the sport continues down this road (no pun intended), you are absolutely correct.


there is always going to be a sprint for the win if 2 athletes are pretty much even.
whether it is a sprint for finish line or into the last passing opportunity of the last lap it is much the same.

i agree though, we seem to have open finish straights on most courses now, would be nice to see some battles of sprint for the lead into the technical finish and then keep it together to hold on

its easy to criticise from our keyboards, much harder to execute at the end of an intense race but we can expect pros to get these things right


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

No one is winning a race at the final sprint. They aren't just lapping at an easy effort for a last second drag race. They are fighting the whole way. The race is decided in the dirt. Those who can handle 90 minutes of intense effort get the chance to fight for that final sprint.

If you can't hold it together for all those climbs, and the modern tech descents, you'll never even get to sprint at the end. But I think it is better to have a sprint finish, then have a tight finish straight where it is hard to pass and a group of people just giving up and coasting through, knowing the race was over 100m before the finish line.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

04 F2000SL said:


> All I know is we need more Americans in the sport.


Would be cool to see Stephen Hyde mix it up with the WC XCO crowd. He's pretty strong in US XC events, and isn't a slouch on the UCI cyclocross circuit.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

winters.benjamin said:


> Would be cool to see Stephen Hyde mix it up with the WC XCO crowd. He's pretty strong in US XC events, and isn't a slouch on the UCI cyclocross circuit.


Stephen Hyde isn't even top 5 in the US right now. He has lots of work to do to be competitive in a World Cup.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Stonerider said:


> Stephen Hyde isn't even top 5 in the US right now. He has lots of work to do to be competitive in a World Cup.


I'm guessing that's partially because his season peaks in January/February.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

04 F2000SL said:


> All I know is we need more Americans in the sport.


The Woman's field has some good Americans, Kate Courtney has done well for herself in these first few races of her first Elite season and the new short track format has given Chloe Woodruff a chance to fight at the front. She had a 5th starting spot after her short track and ran a solid race as high has 7th before falling back to 13th. I am sure both wanted to be closer to the front, but with some more work it is possible. At that level of racing lots of little things start to add up separate the riders at the top.


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## exodus1500 (Jun 5, 2010)

The womens race was over as soon as Neff slowed down and looked over her shoulder only to see that Langvad had started her sprint 0.1 seconds before and had momentum going and insanely stronger legs. 

I really don't know what Neff could have done other than not try and get into sprint in the first place. Maybe just have gone full out from the top of the hill to the finish and hoped for the best.

I agree about the XCC being decent from a viewer standpoint, but not necessarily from a racer standpoint. I was wondering about an idea where they instead were to use the normal course, and basically do a time trial/hot lap. They could start with the lowest seeded first, and the highest seeds go last. Maybe just stagger them by a few minutes instead of waiting for each one to be completely done so it doesn't take all day.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

^Yeah I think i'd prefer to see a time trial lap, and then maybe op 16 get start order, and maybe some points to go with it (not a huge number though)


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

The XCC is a bit weird and resembles crits but ultimately we've heard in the RedBull special from Stellenbosch that the teams were really requesting this format. Also, Nino is the official men's athlete representative to the UCI so perhaps he should have voiced his dissatisfaction/concerns with the format/points harder. 
I agree with the most that this new format does look silly and dangerous.

Men's XC race was a carnage, people on the ground, equipment issues etc. Both of the races really messed up my fantasy league for the weekend 

Neff's terrible finish tactic, great battle between Sam and Nino are the highlights of the weekend but the biggest story must be Wloszczowska. Had she not had problems during start she probably would be at least 2 positions higher on the podium. Per below she must have been around 70th place after the start straight.


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## bikeguy0 (Aug 5, 2007)

My 2 cents. 

Don't like the short track format. Puts these riders in a dangerous position and we are already seeing people getting hurt in the XCO races. I also don't like seeing riders that don't have as much kick being forced further back in the start order and in the rankings. We already have short races that favor sprinters....they're called criteriums, track races, cyclocross, as well as sprint stages on the road. 

MvDP: I saw an interview where he said prior to 2 years ago he had never ridden a mountain bike. Learning to be beating the best in the world on a MTB after only being on one for two years is crazy. For him to be at the place he is in the WC races is amazing. It takes a while to be able to handle your bike perfectly while pinned in an XC race and he isn't doing it full time like the rest of the riders. 

Overall: I really love mountain biking and it's awesome we have the Redbull coverage but I don't like what the UCI is doing to XC racing courses, formats, and time limits. It is good for TV coverage but the combination of a short race @ 1.5 hours, man made rock gardens, drop offs, and sketchy features isn't what mountain biking and XC racing began as. If I wanted to watch an enduro race I would, or watch the downhill coverage. XC racing was longer climbs, longer descents, and natural features of the terrain. I was just talking to my wife about how MTB was created in the US and had it's heyday in the 1990's with great riders like Tomac, Overand, etc. It gets bastardized by the UCI and it's a full on euro series that is barely longer than a cyclocross race. I'm not sure there is any better answer to this as it provides great TV coverage and is easier to spectate but it just seems like a cyclocross race on bigger tires in the summer with enduro sections thrown in. For goodness sake they were talking about the "long" climbs at Albstadt and I think the longest was like 2.5 minutes. In my book that isn't an XC race anymore.


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

bikeguy0 said:


> My 2 cents.
> 
> Don't like the short track format. Puts these riders in a dangerous position and we are already seeing people getting hurt in the XCO races. I also don't like seeing riders that don't have as much kick being forced further back in the start order and in the rankings. We already have short races that favor sprinters....they're called criteriums, track races, cyclocross, as well as sprint stages on the road.
> 
> ...


Agree completely, I would love to hear what Johnny and Ned have to say about it. These current race courses are more fun to view on TV, like it or not it is what the sport has evolved into.


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## exodus1500 (Jun 5, 2010)

joeduda said:


> Agree completely, I would love to hear what Johnny and Ned have to say about it. These current race courses are more fun to view on TV, like it or not it is what the sport has evolved into.


Considering John Tomac was an awesome XC racer and Downhiller, I think he might rather enjoy the current format.


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

bikeguy0 said:


> My 2 cents.
> It is good for TV coverage but the combination of a short race @ 1.5 hours, man made rock gardens, drop offs, and sketchy features isn't what mountain biking and XC racing began as.


Just so I understand, are you suggesting that Nove Mesto (which many would argue is one of the most exciting/loved courses on the circuit from both the spectator and rider perspective) isn't what XCO mountain biking should be?


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

exodus1500 said:


> Considering John Tomac was an awesome XC racer and Downhiller, I think he might rather enjoy the current format.


ya i agree with that too, I think he would have dominated even more on these type of courses. Udyr, i don't think that is what bikeguy said, said they are not what xc began as and he is right. Mountain biking started as hiking trials for me, back in the 80's.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Sweet course, Great races. I really couldnt ask for more. 

I really enjoyed the short track races as well.

1. Neff cooked herself early trying to Gap Langvad down the trail. She had to try, So what if timing was bad. She couldnt let it go to a sprint. I'm also pretty sure she told her competition she was done when she looked back, off the gas, on the tarmac. 

2. this course and some of the others seemed designed to encourage a sprint finish. If you dont want a sprint finish, dont put a bottleneck chicane right before entering tarmac. I would have liked to see Neff time her attack in that chicane instead of so far out. She was completely blown up after her attack. Still fun to watch! I'd rather see a bermed turn with a mercedes benz ad on it than a Tapped chicane that lets gaps regroup. 

3. I personally like to watch sprint finishes because I'm a big dude and I enjoy putting competition away like that when I have a chance. I cant really relate to putting someone away on a climb and cruising to victory.


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## bikeguy0 (Aug 5, 2007)

Udyr said:


> Just so I understand, are you suggesting that Nove Mesto (which many would argue is one of the most exciting/loved courses on the circuit from both the spectator and rider perspective) isn't what XCO mountain biking should be?


Yeah. Man made rock garden, climbs less than 90 seconds, 5 laps of a short course, 1 hour 20 minutes (I think).

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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

bikeguy0 said:


> Yeah. Man made rock garden, climbs less than 90 seconds, 5 laps of a short course, 1 hour 20 minutes (I think).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We get it. Yes the courses are more man made but in a choice between old school almost 3h races some in a middle of nowhere with no spectators and subsequently no TV coverage and what we have now with UCI XCO and RedBullTV I know which option I'd go for.

If you want old school XC races with long courses and hardly any visibility for spectators, you can look at the marathon series. Even the Cape Epic struggled with good TV coverage as it's hard to sell a race to sponsors and TV stations that hardly anyone comes to watch.


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## bikeguy0 (Aug 5, 2007)

rallymaniac said:


> We get it. Yes the courses are more man made but in a choice between old school almost 3h races some in a middle of nowhere with no spectators and subsequently no TV coverage and what we have now with UCI XCO and RedBullTV I know which option I'd go for.
> 
> If you want old school XC races with long courses and hardly any visibility for spectators, you can look at the marathon series. Even the Cape Epic struggled with good TV coverage as it's hard to sell a race to sponsors and TV stations that hardly anyone comes to watch.


I get you. Like I said I'm not sure there is a great solution.

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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

At the pro level racing is not about fun. It is about spectators/TV/media exposure. The more exposure a race series gets the more exposure the sponsors have and thus the more teams can get from them. It is purely a numbers game. This not unique to Mtn bike racing, but common in all forms of racing. NASCAR racing is great example. Big easy to see circular tracks with cars with big flat sides for big sponsor logo's decals and enough crashes to keep the fans interested. That brings money and brings drivers. It not about "fun" for the racers it is about a paycheck. I don't blame the teams or racers for this at all. If they want to make a living in racing you have to get exposure. Most of us here have no shot at even starting a UCI World Cup race the few that do would probably jump at the chance. Fun course or not we all know these men and women are very strong and at the top of the sport. At the end of the day you are in part racing the course, but most racing the next guy. You can do that on anything in any place and still enjoy the competition. If you are just circling around by yourself... yeah it can get a little boring. But these courses are not for weekend warriors to act like racers and have fun. No we have other series to do that. These races are shows and the riders are the entertainers. Putting on a good show can be just as important as winning and some ways more important.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

From a rider perspective: I love the courses nowadays. A course like Nové Mesto is so much more fun than a race with one long gravel climb and a tame downhill. If I want the latter I can still sign up for a XCM event and race some serious competition there. 
From a viewer perspective: I don’t care that much about the track. But tbh: I am that guy who even loves watching sprinters stages in the world famous Tour of Belgium 😉


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## exodus1500 (Jun 5, 2010)

Instead of the short track race, how about this convoluted idea....

Separate the entire field into 8 groups with each group having member throughout the field (ie one group having the current #1, 16, 17, 25, 26, 34, 35, 43, 44... ect.) Then there is a single lap race for each of the first two rows. First place in the group gets row 1, second gets row 2. The rest all get seeded based on WC rankings.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

So much talk about the Short Race being dangerous... well, riding a bike is dangerous, and XCO mountain biking very dangerous. (Look what happened to Gaze & Mathieu). Mass starts are dangerous. 
Sure, design the courses to minimize unnecessary hazards, but the dreaded danger will not go away.
Seems like society is just all about safety right now.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

bikeguy0 said:


> My 2 cents.
> 
> Don't like the short track format. Puts these riders in a dangerous position and we are already seeing people getting hurt in the XCO races. I also don't like seeing riders that don't have as much kick being forced further back in the start order and in the rankings. We already have short races that favor sprinters....they're called criteriums, track races, cyclocross, as well as sprint stages on the road.
> 
> ...


If you've ever raced a high level crit, you'd know that teams send people up the road in breaks. They do this for several purposes. 1) To make the teams of the big name sprinters chase 2)If that chase fails, to go for a win themselves 3) Set up
a counter attack if/when the field comes back. And, they very regularly finish with a break taking the win.

There's no reason teams can't execute similar tactics in XCC. If "sprinters" (wait... Schurter, MvdP, Gaze are also at the top of the XCO standings) are the ones winning all of the XCC races, it's because others haven't made it hard enough for them and they haven't had to do any work to close gaps themselves.

So, I just don't understand the criticism. If people don't like the way the races pan out, they should race more aggressively. Make the other people chase, if for no other reason than to sap their legs.

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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> If you've ever raced a high level crit, you'd know that teams send people up the road in breaks. They do this for several purposes. 1) To make the teams of the big name sprinters chase 2)If that chase fails, to go for a win themselves 3) Set up
> a counter attack if/when the field comes back. And, they very regularly finish with a break taking the win.
> 
> There's no reason teams can't execute similar tactics in XCC. If "sprinters" (wait... Schurter, MvdP, Gaze are also at the top of the XCO standings) are the ones winning all of the XCC races, it's because others haven't made it hard enough for them and they haven't had to do any work to close gaps themselves.
> ...


You are right. Bad luck aside, MVdP and Sam will probably take all the Men's XCC wins because everyone is making it easy for them. If the other riders allow those 2 to be on the front near the end of the race without them having to do anymore than the rest then they have effectively already handed the win to them. Same for XCO, if you allow a faster sprinter to enter onto the final part of the race then you have lost the race even before the sprint. Why do GC and hill climbers not try their luck when there is a group sprint at road races? Because the sprinters will win.all.the.time.


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## bikeguy0 (Aug 5, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> If you've ever raced a high level crit, you'd know that teams send people up the road in breaks. They do this for several purposes. 1) To make the teams of the big name sprinters chase 2)If that chase fails, to go for a win themselves 3) Set up
> a counter attack if/when the field comes back. And, they very regularly finish with a break taking the win.
> 
> There's no reason teams can't execute similar tactics in XCC. If "sprinters" (wait... Schurter, MvdP, Gaze are also at the top of the XCO standings) are the ones winning all of the XCC races, it's because others haven't made it hard enough for them and they haven't had to do any work to close gaps themselves.
> ...


My comment about the non sprinters is more targeted at the women's race where you might see riders with less pop having worse start positions and overall rankings due to the xcc race. I'd be surprised if the xcc race didn't play heavily in absalons retirement decision too.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

bikeguy0 said:


> My comment about the non sprinters is more targeted at the women's race where you might see riders with less pop having worse start positions and overall rankings due to the xcc race. I'd be surprised if the xcc race didn't play heavily in absalons retirement decision too.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Then they need to adjust their training and tactics. This race format is not a surprise.

I mean, even if Yana Belomoina can't battle it out for a win, if she's WC fit she should be able to pass people on the climb every lap and suck wheel for the rest of the lap. If she can't draft or figure out how to pass people with lower w/kg on a climb, that's on her.

But, I'll say that I'd change one thing if I was in charge. The U-turns after the Start/Finish are garbage, and make it easier for chasers to close down gaps.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Then they need to adjust their training and tactics. This race format is not a surprise.
> 
> I mean, even if Yana Belomoina can't battle it out for a win, if she's WC fit she should be able to pass people on the climb every lap and suck wheel for the rest of the lap. If she can't draft or figure out how to pass people with lower w/kg on a climb, that's on her.
> 
> But, I'll say that I'd change one thing if I was in charge. The U-turns after the Start/Finish are garbage, and make it easier for chasers to close down gaps.


The climbs in xcc are super short, short enough that a climber doesn't have an advantage but a sprinter does. Even for xco tracks, the climbs are very short for pure climbers to gain much, that's why you see not climbers like Nino dominating even on climbs.

For better or worse, xco and xcc has evolved into some sort of off road criterium where a powerful rider has advantage over a climber.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

bikeguy0 said:


> If I wanted to watch an enduro race I would, or watch the downhill coverage. XC racing was longer climbs, longer descents, and natural features of the terrain.


Funny enough, I was just thinking about how awesome it would be to do an enduro style race where the entire event was timed, including the climb. More tech descents are what I want in my XC racing, not less!


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

Sidewalk said:


> Funny enough, I was just thinking about how awesome it would be to do an enduro style race where the entire event was timed, including the climb. More tech descents are what I want in my XC racing, not less!


Wouldn't that be called, ah, enduro? =)


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

insidertrading said:


> Wouldn't that be called, ah, enduro? =)


If they timed the climbing...


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

bikeguy0 said:


> Overall: I really love mountain biking and it's awesome we have the Redbull coverage but I don't like what the UCI is doing to XC racing courses, formats, and time limits. It is good for TV coverage but the combination of a short race @ 1.5 hours, man made rock gardens, drop offs, and sketchy features isn't what mountain biking and XC racing began as. If I wanted to watch an enduro race I would, or watch the downhill coverage. XC racing was longer climbs, longer descents, and natural features of the terrain. I was just talking to my wife about how MTB was created in the US and had it's heyday in the 1990's with great riders like Tomac, Overand, etc. It gets bastardized by the UCI and it's a full on euro series that is barely longer than a cyclocross race. I'm not sure there is any better answer to this as it provides great TV coverage and is easier to spectate but it just seems like a cyclocross race on bigger tires in the summer with enduro sections thrown in. For goodness sake they were talking about the "long" climbs at Albstadt and I think the longest was like 2.5 minutes. In my book that isn't an XC race anymore.


I think we're seeing more stratification in the sport overall, which isn't really a function of UCI involvement IMO. When I was racing hard in high school, XC races were roughly 3 hours long and included nearly no man-made features. Descents were gnarly and anything qualifying as a 'climb' was 10 minutes plus. Most folks winning XC races were using similar or the same rigs to compete in DH races. Nowadays 'XCM' is more comparable to the Tomac/Overend/Juarez XC races of yesteryear, and we've further branched out into other specialities like XCO, XCE and XCC. Downhill, similarly, has disaggregated into DH, Enduro, Freeriding and whatever-you-call-the-insanity-of-Rampage.

I don't personally feel the need to protect the range of meaning for 'XC' to include 3+hour events, or courses resembling those of the late 90s. But to be sure the meaning has changed, and I've had to adapt my language accordingly: I'm not a 'XC' racer anymore, but XCM. And that's cool. I still get inspired watching Nino and all the rest, but when I choose to compete or go on a ride, I'll most often stick with the types of terrain and suffering that I love.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Thing is, TV rules the world nowadays. And like it or not, you can't sell 3+h even in middle of nowhere to broader public. It's super hard to properly cover 20km loop in middle of forest for nowadays standards of TV transmission, and second, even if you could, there's very very few who would be ready to watch 3+h of mtb racing. Therefore XCO evolved into this what it is today, and even that, is probably get shorter as even 1.5h is too long.
I'm coming from xc skiing, and same changes are going on there, and xc skiing has "a bit" more tradition then mtb xc racing, and much bigger market. Yet, only race that looks like "traditional" race is 50km race in Holmenkolen above Oslo. That one is still run on standard 10km loop, even though even there, they changed it to mass start (from 30sec interval individual start). Everything else moved to 2, 3k loops, removing bunch of long(er) races replacing them with sprints and shorter distances. Everything for today's TV standards... and TV public. 
Now if we like that or not is other question. Personally, even though I was all my life in this, I still can't sit infront of TV for 2h and watch xc ski 50k race. It's just too boring, and xc skiing is my sport. Now image someone who has not so much interest in that. He will get bored after 30min and leave. And organizers (FIS or UCI), sponsors and on the end racers who live from sponsor money, don't want that. So short races with more action and blood (that's what people want nowadays) is way to go.
For us old farts, that still want to race (at least some of you, as I'm done with my racing), you have XCM if you want "old school" XC racing


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

I'm huge mtb fan, but i don't think i would watch the entire xco race, when it would be a 3hour long and i 100% wouldn't watch if they are on old-style XCM type tracks. ( That's when i watch road races i only watch last 15-20km )

Racing wise i love 45min-90min races, because they are short enough that you can really hammer climbs and downhills and really push yourself, not like XCM marathons on one big loop where you have to think about conserving energy all the time, being cautious on the downhills etc. But hey, that's just me ( and seems i'm not alone )


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

primoz said:


> Thing is, TV rules the world nowadays. And like it or not, you can't sell 3+h even in middle of nowhere to broader public.


TDF coverage is sometimes 7 hours or more and is very popular.

I know they have a budget they have to stick to but it sure would be nice if Redbull could get a few more cameras on the course, it sucks to watch the whole race and miss the one decisive move because the riders are in a coverage dead zone.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

I think redbull tv has improved a LOT over the last years covering races, first DH wc race they had whole track covered with cameras and showd full runs for the top mens. And same in the xco, pretty much all interesting places seemed to be covered


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Raikzz said:


> And same in the xco, pretty much all interesting places seemed to be covered


Except for the climb where Nino made the decisive attack.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> TDF coverage is sometimes 7 hours or more and is very popular.


I believe it is, even though there's no way I would be sitting infront of TV and watching that. But realistically, you can't compare mtb with road racing. With TdF, they cover some 200+km in those 7 hours. And that means they travel through quite some part of the country. With all the options they have (several helicopters, plane or actually 3 to be exact, endless stationary cameras, endless moto cams, whole bunch of pre-prepared material), they can actually fill those 7h with whole bunch of stuff completely unrelated to cycling, and it goes as far as providing food recipes and wine presentations from certain region race goes through. With XCM you have some 70 or 80km loop, which means in most cases around here (middle Europe) you are never more then 20 or 30km away from start/finish line, so whole lot less interesting stuff "next to the road" to report about, and of course, there's no way to have at least 10% of production budged that single TdF stage has. So there's no way to fill those hours. 
And I think without all that, number of people watching TdF would be seriously hit


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## MudderNutter (Oct 23, 2014)

So this is a very high level comment... but I think it might say a lot about the current race format.

I sat down to watch it with a lady that has never watched a single mountain bike event in her life. She knows nothing about it. The race had her engaged the entire time. She was asking about race tactics, and who different riders were/what they were good at. After it was over she was talking about how she can't wait to watch the next one! 

I don't think the race would have had the same affect if it were a 3 hour race with spotty coverage.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

primoz said:


> I believe it is, even though there's no way I would be sitting infront of TV and watching that. But realistically, you can't compare mtb with road racing. With TdF, they cover some 200+km in those 7 hours. And that means they travel through quite some part of the country. With all the options they have (several helicopters, plane or actually 3 to be exact, endless stationary cameras, endless moto cams, whole bunch of pre-prepared material), they can actually fill those 7h with whole bunch of stuff completely unrelated to cycling, and it goes as far as providing food recipes and wine presentations from certain region race goes through. With XCM you have some 70 or 80km loop, which means in most cases around here (middle Europe) you are never more then 20 or 30km away from start/finish line, so whole lot less interesting stuff "next to the road" to report about, and of course, there's no way to have at least 10% of production budged that single TdF stage has. So there's no way to fill those hours.
> And I think without all that, number of people watching TdF would be seriously hit


I agree with all of that and am not suggesting the xco races should be longer. I do hope that Redbull continues to improve their coverage of xco, it doesn't seem impossible to get cameras on the entire 4-5 km circuit and it would make races more exciting to watch.


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## aohammer (Feb 2, 2006)

The current XCO format at around 1.5 hrs works, both for riders and promoters, and of course spectators. Pretty exciting to watch the entire time. One thing I still prefer though, although ok to set up courses with sprint finishes, is to have the finish ON DIRT, after all this is mountain biking.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

I'm OK with how XCO is only around 90 minutes. The pace of racing is absolutely incredible for the entire duration. Easy to broadcast and watch. The courses having man made features is basically consistent with current trail design. A 1995 race course would very boring to watch. 

I understand all the reasons to have the Short Track version. It helps level the playing field, something else to watch, also helps mix things up (so Nino is less dominant). As long as it doesn't just turn into a CX.

In the RedBull "Chatter" before the first race they said the teams ask for Short Track to be added. More exposure for sponsors and racers. 

I think it will always be a sideshow to the XCO. I like it better to watch than the Eliminator races they had a few years back. Hope the courses improve over time.


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

I think there will also be a push for another dirt related cycling sport in the Olympics. The XCC could very will be the UCI's next bid at this, since cyclocross cannot be included in the winter Olympics. 

Although, I think it would be awesome if they included DH in the Olympics. There is really no reason DH isn't an Olympic sport, other than venue issues (which could easily be solved).


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

kevbikemad said:


> I'm OK with how XCO is only around 90 minutes. The pace of racing is absolutely incredible for the entire duration. Easy to broadcast and watch. The courses having man made features is basically consistent with current trail design. A 1995 race course would very boring to watch.
> 
> I understand all the reasons to have the Short Track version. It helps level the playing field, something else to watch, also helps mix things up (so Nino is less dominant). As long as it doesn't just turn into a CX.
> 
> ...


Fully agree. 1.5hrs is as long as anyone can go, at that pace, and as long as anyone can watch, at least in one sitting. I love that they broadcast the entire event rather than some compiled highlights package. Good on Red Bull, (even though I never drink the stuff I'm glad a bunch of people do, otherwise we'd lose all these events from view).


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

aohammer said:


> One thing I still prefer though, although ok to set up courses with sprint finishes, is to have the finish ON DIRT, after all this is mountain biking.


A dual-track BMX section to the line!


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Any update on Van der Poel's wrist after NM?


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

ewarnerusa said:


> Any update on Van der Poel's wrist after NM?


He's okay. No further damage to wrist and starting 4 day road tour on Thursday.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

insidertrading said:


> He's okay. No further damage to wrist and starting 4 day road tour on Thursday.


Thanks. I just read this article referring to the race you're talking about. 2nd in the prologue. This guy is a beast of a cyclist.
Van der Poel levert knalprestatie met schroef in pols


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## grawp (Apr 22, 2012)

NordieBoy said:


> A dual-track BMX section to the line!


That's the best idea ever!


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## scurry4 (Nov 28, 2009)

briscoelab said:


> I think there will also be a push for another dirt related cycling sport in the Olympics. The XCC could very will be the UCI's next bid at this, since cyclocross cannot be included in the winter Olympics.
> 
> Although, I think it would be awesome if they included DH in the Olympics. There is really no reason DH isn't an Olympic sport, other than venue issues (which could easily be solved).


I agree, DH should be in. I wish CX could find a way in, but it would have to be winter, so it wont happen. XCC could be nice, but I think they need to work on what they consider to be the "goal" track. Since the Olympic course are all artificial anyways, seems like they could do some more, some sort of DH BMX style features, wide rock gardens, wide drops etc... It would be cool if they basically use XCC as a marketing tool for XCO.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Now that there is a big gap till the next XC world cup race any guesses as to who wins the next 4 XC races (not short track)??

1. Val di Sole

2. Vallnord

3. Mont-Sainte-Anne

4. La Bresse

And does MVDP get his first elusive win in XC this year?


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## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> The U-turns after the Start/Finish are garbage, and make it easier for chasers to close down gaps.


Yep, without the U turn that race would have been much different. 
I wonder if it is Simon's goal to have the races stay together and thus it was a design element? If not, then the course designers will be able to figure it out quickly. Even a 50 foot wide triangle turn would have been enough to string out, but not shatter, that field.

If I had to guess they are erring on the side of keeping the field together this year as the format evolves. They do not want riders in groups of 1-3 littered along the course.


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## silves1171 (Mar 3, 2009)

1. Val di Sole - N. Schurter
2. Vallnord - N. Schurter
3. Mont-Sainte-Anne - N. Schurter
4. La Bresse - N. Schurter

The only reason Gaze beat Schurter in S. Africa is Gaze was peaking from all his riding in the Southern hemisphere and Schurter was still in a build period. This applies to Cooper and to some extent to Van Der Poel -- that might've been carrying some of his CX fitness into the first race. 

On the last race, Van der Poel was strong in the beginning, but he was probably going to start dropping back (if he had not crashed).

The only other rider(s) that might have a chance against Schurter the rest of the season is Mazime Marotte and possibly Kulhavy. Schurter seems to be the only rider that can podium while not in peak fitness (first race of the season), and then have a super long peak that has him winning from May thru August.


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## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

briscoelab said:


> I think there will also be a push for another dirt related cycling sport in the Olympics. The XCC could very will be the UCI's next bid at this, since cyclocross cannot be included in the winter Olympics.
> 
> Although, I think it would be awesome if they included DH in the Olympics. There is really no reason DH isn't an Olympic sport, other than venue issues (which could easily be solved).


There is a major push to reduce the total number of athletes at the Olympics. I don't think XCC has a chance, but it is more likely than DH, which would necessitate removing another event to compensate for the additional athletes.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> If you've ever raced a high level crit, you'd know that teams send people up the road in breaks. They do this for several purposes. 1) To make the teams of the big name sprinters chase 2)If that chase fails, to go for a win themselves 3) Set up
> a counter attack if/when the field comes back. And, they very regularly finish with a break taking the win.
> 
> There's no reason teams can't execute similar tactics in XCC. If "sprinters" (wait... Schurter, MvdP, Gaze are also at the top of the XCO standings) are the ones winning all of the XCC races, it's because others haven't made it hard enough for them and they haven't had to do any work to close gaps themselves.
> ...


Team tactics will never happen with any regularity in short track. Individual riders have too much at stake. There is no way you are going to use a massive amount of energy attempting to make a break stick, or working for your team to only get swallowed on the last lap and spit out of the back.

As long as short track determines start order racers are going to save energy and try their hand in a sprint.

Actually the whole timing is off. If they made the XC on saturday and the short track on sunday we would see much more aggressive racing in the short track. And perhaps we would see different riders in the front but the reality is a "Sprinter" is unlikely to be a top 40 ranked UCI rider.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

silves1171 said:


> 1. Val di Sole - N. Schurter
> 2. Vallnord - N. Schurter
> 3. Mont-Sainte-Anne - N. Schurter
> 4. La Bresse - N. Schurter
> ...


With Gaze and Cooper being the U23 champs over the past 3 years it can come as no surprise that they will be at the pointy end of races as they start to reach their physical peaks near their mid 20s. This is not to take anything away from Nino but just a result of the passing of time. The young riders and the older riders are just on different trajectories and the cross over point in regards to Nino and the fast young guys is close at hand.
Also I don't think being a Southern hemisphere rider is that much of an advantage in the long run. After a few years you come into a new season less fresh if you have to keep racing through the northern winter.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

silves1171 said:


> 1. Val di Sole - N. Schurter
> 2. Vallnord - N. Schurter
> 3. Mont-Sainte-Anne - N. Schurter
> 4. La Bresse - N. Schurter
> ...


My feeling is that Shurter will win at least two of the 4 races and perhaps more. He is well prepared and has been very fortunate to not crash out, get sick or have mechanicals (other than short track) over the last few years.

My top picks for other winners are Tempier, Cooper or Gaze.

MVDP seems to go out hard, crack then crash. No doubt he is a specimen but I am thinking that the 90 minute race and all the climbing and the techy nature of the courses might work against him being a regular winner on the circuit. He is really good at a lot of things although Wout Van Aert seems to have his number at the world championships and I think the talent level is higher at the XC level than what cross has. Wout is giving the pro road thing a shot and he should do well there. Perhaps MVDP is more of a road or classics guy.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

richwolf said:


> I think the talent level is higher at the XC level than what cross has.


I say the level is pretty even between cross an XC racing, it's just a function of peaking for opposite times of the year. Mainly cross guys can do some mtb racing and do okay with late summer fitness leading into cross and the same thing holds true for mtb'ers (see Marco Fontana) the point of reference for MvDP's talent for that type of racing is he can be world class at both, we haven't seen that for a long time when the talent in both weren't as deep. As far as Wout "should do well there" did you not see what he did off the back of a full cross season?


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Finally able to finish watching the men’s race. I have the utmost respect for Nino but this year has been so much more exciting and as a Trek fan, it was great to see the fire in Anton during that race. Hoping this is a sign of his form to come much like with Emily. 

As an American, also loving the heart Courtney has. Of course she’s learning and feeling things out in her first year, but she’s doing so in a way that shows a lot of heart and desire. 

So far this season has been a great one and will be great to see how the rest of the year transpires!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Watching the DH WC at Fort Bill. 

Interesting to see how many concessions to aerodynamics (and common sense) the top guys are making. Going so far as to tuck their jerseys into their shorts and pull things as tight as possible.

Given the inclusion of XCC to the race program, and the fact that the races are <90min for the XCO, and done at a super high pace, I wouldn't be surprised to see more guys using helmets like the Specialized Evade. And perhaps more handlebars like the Syncros Fraser coming out.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Watching the DH WC at Fort Bill.
> 
> Interesting to see how many concessions to aerodynamics (and common sense) the top guys are making. Going so far as to tuck their jerseys into their shorts and pull things as tight as possible.


A rabbit trail, I know... but my understanding is that skin suits were banned a couple years ago for DH. Makes no sense to me. Now we have competitors desperately trying to make their very non-aero clothing as aero as possible.... but only so aero. :madman:


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

jrob300 said:


> A rabbit trail, I know... but my understanding is that skin suits were banned a couple years ago for DH. Makes no sense to me. Now we have competitors desperately trying to make their very non-aero clothing as aero as possible.... but only so aero. :madman:


If they're so worried about appearances, like when they banned lycra as a top layer, they should ban long pants.


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## JoelGuelph (May 20, 2010)

richde said:


> If they're so worried about appearances, like when they banned lycra as a top layer, they should ban long pants.


100%, especially the all white WC pants on Bruni!

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Seems like others are asking the same questions. Re the skin suit rule:

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/stop-the-skinsuit-rule.html


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I want to post the Rachel Atherton quote about skinsuits. But I won’t. Because I’ll be too mean in my follow on commentary. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Isn’t this the XC forum?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

peabody said:


> Isn't this the XC forum?


Aerodynamics are important in every aspect of cycling, outside of trials. And that acrobatic cycling stuff.

I think it's funny that several branches of the sport, that are probably more influenced by aerodynamics than XC, make fun of XC racers for wearing what they should be wearing themselves. But don't, because fashion.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## m3bas (Dec 24, 2011)

Jared Graves is very wary of this and had Yeti remake his kit to be as form fitting as possible, without being too dorky for the enduro crowd. Seems ridiculous that they aren’t all over it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Aerodynamics are important in every aspect of cycling, outside of trials. And that acrobatic cycling stuff.
> 
> I think it's funny that several branches of the sport, that are probably more influenced by aerodynamics than XC, make fun of XC racers for wearing what they should be wearing themselves. But don't, because fashion.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fashion? Or old timer, throwback, refuse to make adjustments...... let make everyone use Schwinn HT frames with no more than 6 speeds and 26" steel wheels. After all, if were gonna restrict the sport to 1970, let's DO THIS!!!!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

jrob300 said:


> Fashion? Or old timer, throwback, refuse to make adjustments...... let make everyone use Schwinn HT frames with no more than 6 speeds and 26" steel wheels. After all, if were gonna restrict the sport to 1970, let's DO THIS!!!!


The funny thing is you can find quite a few pictures of Steve Peat and Sam Hill in spandex, pre-ban.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

MattMay said:


> Seems like others are asking the same questions. Re the skin suit rule:
> 
> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/stop-the-skinsuit-rule.html


Yeah... still with the rabbit trail and at some point a new thread..... but YES. Can we please move on from the 70's?

Or perhaps we should penalize DH skiers, speed skaters, bob sledders, ski jumpers... I think it's time we take 3 baby steps backwards. It's for the children.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

peabody said:


> Isn't this the XC forum?


You're not my supervisor!!!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

No lycra, compulsory peaks, it's all about the image.
Otherwise they'd be using whatever it takes to get them to the bottom the fastest.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

NordieBoy said:


> No lycra, compulsory peaks, it's all about the image.
> Otherwise they'd be using whatever it takes to get them to the bottom the fastest.


Isn't that the point? Or did I miss something?


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> I think it's funny that several branches of the sport, that are probably more influenced by aerodynamics than XC, make fun of XC racers for wearing what they should be wearing themselves.


So true. Skinsuits might bring second or two in xc race, which last time in Nove Mesto could make all the difference, but in general it's not really what brings or takes a win.
In DH, good aerodynamics would mean way more then it does in XC, yet important part is fashion. I never understood this, but then again, I'm just a guy who was racing in xc skiing all his life and was wearing lycra at -20c


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I know it is a fashion thing, but also easier to wear your armor on the inside and cover your jersey in sponsor logos, as opposed to covering your armor with logos.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

^armour goes inside the skin suit
and don't need a whole bunch of extra velcro straps to hold the armour in place


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

I asked on the pinkbike forum what is so cool about helmet peaks
didn't get an answer
DH'ers are not getting roosted with gravel by the moto in front of them
and Skater's don't have peaks, so what is so fashionable about peaks?


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

if you noticed in the short track race in Nove Mesto some riders went as far as even bend their number plates so that they are more aerodynamic.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Alpine ski racers wear all kinds of armor under their speed suits, at least in the speed events of DH and Super G.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

ewarnerusa said:


> Alpine ski racers wear all kinds of armor under their speed suits, at least in the speed events of DH and Super G.


True. In alpine skiing, they probably have just as much body armor then in mtb DH. Actually, today with airbags etc, they probably fit more of it then mtb racers, and all goes under skinsuits, except hand protection for SG, and GS (no hand protection is allowed for downhill) and lower leg protection for SL, which are above clothes.
Also if you look for example MotoGP. Their race suits are pretty much skin suits and I doubt anyone can argue they wear less protection then mtb DH racers.


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

primoz said:


> Also if you look for example MotoGP. Their race suits are pretty much skin suits and I doubt anyone can argue they wear less protection then mtb DH racers.


You are incredibly wrong about what MotoGP racers wear for protection. Chest/back protectors are mandatory. The leathers (state of the art materials) have built in elbow, forearm, knee, shin, hip protection/padding plus the knee sliders offer some degree of protection. The boots all have internal carbon fiber/kevlar ankle protection; its an articulated internal boot inside of the outer shell. And the boots also have lower shin protection. The gloves all have finger and back of the hand protection along with wrist and lower forearm guards. The helmets are extraordinary. Most racers wear inflatable halo protection for their necks and upper backs. Having raced in the AMA, you feel like a gladiator when you are on track. Thank god for sponsorship because the cost for protection can be extraordinary.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Yet all this fits under/in relatively tight suit. And that was my point, that you don't need extra baggy clothes to fit that little (compared to some other sports) of protection that's needed in mtb dh.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

beastmaster said:


> You are incredibly wrong about what MotoGP racers wear for protection. Chest/back protectors are mandatory. The leathers (state of the art materials) have built in elbow, forearm, knee, shin, hip protection/padding plus the knee sliders offer some degree of protection. The boots all have internal carbon fiber/kevlar ankle protection; its an articulated internal boot inside of the outer shell. And the boots also have lower shin protection. The gloves all have finger and back of the hand protection along with wrist and lower forearm guards. The helmets are extraordinary. Most racers wear inflatable halo protection for their necks and upper backs. Having raced in the AMA, you feel like a gladiator when you are on track. Thank god for sponsorship because the cost for protection can be extraordinary.


His point was the one you just made. They "look" like skin suits, but are really a technological suit of armor.


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

primoz said:


> Yet all this fits under/in relatively tight suit. And that was my point, that you don't need extra baggy clothes to fit that little (compared to some other sports) of protection that's needed in mtb dh.


If by "skin suit" you mean aero dynamic, than I accept your point as fact. Protection with body armor doesn't have to imply wind resistance.

When I think of what I regularly wear when I race/ride (lycra mostly in the summer and never any pads at anytime of the year + my xc helmet), I am amazed that I don't get more thrashed when I wreck. And I race and ride a lot of technical terrain!


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

ccm said:


> I asked on the pinkbike forum what is so cool about helmet peaks
> didn't get an answer
> DH'ers are not getting roosted with gravel by the moto in front of them
> and Skater's don't have peaks, so what is so fashionable about peaks?


It's mainly for sun/glare protection when wearing goggles.

Goggles collect dust on the lenses. When sun hits the dust it's crazy hard to see anything. When going from shade to bright sun transitions dark lenses aren't going to work. So, you have a peak that you can slightly dip you head down and use to block the sun.

Anyone who has ridden a dirt bike or an adventure touring bike knows this. Even in the moto world peaks have nearly nothing to do with shielding from "roost".


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## RadBartTaylor (Dec 1, 2004)

ccm said:


> I asked on the pinkbike forum what is so cool about helmet peaks
> didn't get an answer
> DH'ers are not getting roosted with gravel by the moto in front of them
> and Skater's don't have peaks, so what is so fashionable about peaks?


In all my years riding MTB and dirt bikes, since the early 80's, I've never heard of the term helmet 'Peak'. Had to look that up, the same as a 'visor'. Is it a British term?


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

my question is why is it unfashionable to not have a visor?
to the point that DHer's petitioned the UCI to make them mandatory

so what is uncool about Skaters or Moto GP riders' helmets?

visor is the clear(ish) thing in front of your eyes on a moto helmet

my helmet shell projects forward enough that when I dip my head my eyes are shaded, so for me a peak/visor is unnecessary


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Because it looks "dorky" for a fullface helmet to not have a peak.
Only an acceptable look if you've crashed.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I find them to be very useful when I am riding my enduro, but no need racing XC. I imagine the body position has something to do with it.


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## wheelzqc (Aug 31, 2016)

I had a bike fit and it made me wonder about the pros. Why do most of the pros (whatever I saw on pinkbike, bikeradar and GMBN) seem to be riding sub 700mm bars and rarely a stem under 90mm. While, correct me if I'm wrong, I could assume that here the people ride 720+ bars and under 90mm (can even venture to say sub 80mm). 

Longer stem to recruit more of the glutes ? Smaller bars for the world cup huge pack ?


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

wheelzqc said:


> I had a bike fit and it made me wonder about the pros. Why do most of the pros (whatever I saw on pinkbike, bikeradar and GMBN) seem to be riding sub 700mm bars and rarely a stem under 90mm. While, correct me if I'm wrong, I could assume that here the people ride 720+ bars and under 90mm (can even venture to say sub 80mm).
> 
> Longer stem to recruit more of the glutes ? Smaller bars for the world cup huge pack ?


The reason for narrower bars: Wider bars not needed for XC racing, lighter weight, easier to maneuver in a mass start, and more aero (don't kid yourself...aero saves a few watts here and there on a World Cup course and when the finishes come down to a sprint every saved watt counts)


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

wheelzqc said:


> I had a bike fit and it made me wonder about the pros. Why do most of the pros (whatever I saw on pinkbike, bikeradar and GMBN) seem to be riding sub 700mm bars and rarely a stem under 90mm. While, correct me if I'm wrong, I could assume that here the people ride 720+ bars and under 90mm (can even venture to say sub 80mm).


Mostly because when it comes to racing and gaining extra second which might bring you victory, people don't really care all that much about marketing BS that companies are feeding you nowadays. On mtbr.com, people mostly buy marketing BS and don't really bother to listen what their body is telling, even if second gained on uphill, doesn't really matter.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

wheelzqc said:


> I had a bike fit and it made me wonder about the pros. Why do most of the pros (whatever I saw on pinkbike, bikeradar and GMBN) seem to be riding sub 700mm bars and rarely a stem under 90mm. While, correct me if I'm wrong, I could assume that here the people ride 720+ bars and under 90mm (can even venture to say sub 80mm).
> 
> Longer stem to recruit more of the glutes ? Smaller bars for the world cup huge pack ?


The long, low, and narrow front end is about out of the saddle climbing position. The low bars allow you to extend your arms and a good range of motion when riding out of saddle. The higher and wider those bars the less range you have on the bike.

Of course long, low and narrow can compromise your riding in other areas but world class XC riders are good enough that it is other factors (capability of tires for example) that are limiting their speed.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

wheelzqc said:


> I had a bike fit and it made me wonder about the pros. Why do most of the pros (whatever I saw on pinkbike, bikeradar and GMBN) seem to be riding sub 700mm bars and rarely a stem under 90mm. While, correct me if I'm wrong, I could assume that here the people ride 720+ bars and under 90mm (can even venture to say sub 80mm).
> 
> Longer stem to recruit more of the glutes ? Smaller bars for the world cup huge pack ?


That's the difference between normal riders/racers on bikes that are a little more general purpose and laser focused XC race bikes.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

NordieBoy said:


> That's the difference between normal riders/racers on bikes that are a little more general purpose and laser focused XC race bikes.


Comfort is secondary to speed. Gettting in the best pedaling position is more important than downhill control. Aero is huge too.
If a bike has pop, extra control through a rock garden or fun factor is not a question xc racers ask. They want to know it's light efficient and has just enough control to get them to the bottom. 1 hour races allow them to beat themself up for max speed.
Look at pro road bikes, huge compromises in comfort for areo.


----------



## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

LMN said:


> The long, low, and narrow front end is about out of the saddle climbing position. The low bars allow you to extend your arms and a good range of motion when riding out of saddle. The higher and wider those bars the less range you have on the bike.
> 
> Of course long, low and narrow can compromise your riding in other areas but world class XC riders are good enough that it is other factors (capability of tires for example) that are limiting their speed.


I think it is as much about climbing in the saddle too. If you watch the racers on the uphills they seem to save themselves as much as possible by staying in the saddle as long as they can.

They are amazingly talented riders with great fitness and a strong core. Those courses are tough and technical. Many of us would have a huge problem on some of those downhills not to mention the uphills.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Narrower bars are also an advantage when in a huge pack of riders, like in a mass race start. Wider bars/shorter stems have more control, but you need to try and get as far forward as you can before the field gets thin.

I just put wide bars and short stem on the bike I plan to race endurance on, but I won't be fighting traffic on it. Way more fun to ride now.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Helen Grobert retired from cycling.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

chilla13 said:


> Helen Grobert retired from cycling.


Did she announce why?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)




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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> Did she announce why?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not really. She just wrote that she needs a break from cycling due to health issues.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

I was wondering what had happened with her, specially after her nice result in Stellenbosch. 

The women elite field is kinda worrying by situations like this, do you guys think they are being pushed too much?

I know for a fact extreme exercise in young women never ends well, many complications arise that make it having a long career very hard.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

TDLover said:


> I know for a fact extreme exercise in young women never ends well, many complications arise that make it having a long career very hard.


I call BS.
State the research that proves your "fact".

I know women who had professional athletic careers of 10 to 20 years, and by observation they are much healthier then their non-athletic counter parts.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

chilla13 said:


> Helen Grobert retired from cycling.


That stinks. I guess I will quit picking her for the podium for the time being when we all pick our winners for the XCO weekends... I really thought she had a good potential upside..


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Maybe she just wants to discover a life beyond cycling. We don’t know anything for sure, but that would not be uncommon. I turned my back on ski racing when I started at the university. There are so many things to explore in this world...
Once I even rode a road bike 😀


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

LMN said:


> I call BS.
> State the research that proves your "fact".
> 
> I know women who had professional athletic careers of 10 to 20 years, and by observation they are much healthier then their non-athletic counter parts.


Before stating the "facts", I should say that I shouldn't have said "it never ends well", but rather that extreme exercise always means compromises in the human body, both in men and women, its just that there is a higher prevalence of negative issues in women.

For starters, female olympic athletes have a higher incidence of illness compared to men, which mainly means they will miss more competitions and be able to train less.

Scientific paper









Second, women are more susceptible to eating disorders and mental health problems.

Scientific paper



> Elite Athlete Vulnerability to Mental Illness
> 
> The data from studies reporting larger samples, although limited in scope, suggest that elite athletes experience a broadly comparable risk of high-prevalence mental disorders (i.e. anxiety, depression) relative to the general population [23]. That said, there may be subgroups of athletes at elevated risk of mental ill-health, including those in the retirement phase of their careers [44] or those experiencing performance failure [45]. As in the general population, major negative life events, including injury [23], may increase the risk of mental ill-health in elite athletes [50], though focused quantitative studies with adequate follow-up assessment periods are needed to confirm this. Findings regarding the prevalence of eating disorders and body image concerns relative to the general population were inconsistent. *However, there was a tendency for higher vulnerability to these conditions in athletes involved in sports requiring a particularly lean body shape [21, 35, 38-40] and in female athletes [41-43]-the latter being consistent with the findings of general population studies [87].* Objective data, based on the results of medical review and tests, would likely assist in the assessment of eating pathologies and help counter the limitations of self-reporting (i.e. underreporting) [88]. Low social support was noted as a key risk factor for general mental ill-health, highlighting the importance of both formal and informal support networks for athletes [44, 46, 66]. All of the included general-prevalence studies were cross-sectional in nature. A natural advance for the field will be to assess athletes prospectively and better identify factors within the competitive spheres (i.e. performance or team success) and non-competitive spheres (i.e. approach coping, social support) for managing symptoms of mental ill-health. Given the significant overlap between the competitive years for elite athletes and the peak onset of mental disorders [10-12], future work should also assess low-prevalence disorders, such as psychosis or mania, in order to detect and direct at-risk athletes to early-intervention programmes or services.


Keeping up with the differences there are particularly some problems that only women suffer because of their genetic composition, mainly related to their sex hormones that results in future problems like osteoporosis. This topic has been lately well researched and new studies keep popping up.

Scientific paper (behind paywall sadly)

Excerpt from article:



> The female athlete triad consists of the interrelated
> problems of disordered eating, amenorrhea, and
> osteoporosis. For some athletes, disordered eat-
> ing can lead to a disruption of menstrual function-
> ...


More articles on the same topic (open access)

Scientific paper

Scientific paper

Scientific paper


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## forrest_m (May 26, 2015)

LMN said:


> I call BS.
> State the research that proves your "fact".





TDLover said:


> Scientific paper
> 
> Scientific paper
> 
> ...


Without weighing in on the merits of the argument (I don't have time, or really inclination, to read all those articles), I just want to say how much I appreciate it that when asked to show the research, TDL actually did just that. An expert may read those papers and pick holes in them, but it's a lot better than "is too", "is not".


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

LMN said:


> I call BS.
> State the research that proves your "fact".
> 
> I know women who had professional athletic careers of 10 to 20 years, and by observation they are much healthier then their non-athletic counter parts.


^agree
the science shows that extreme exercise even causes complications in young men 
so racing is bad for all of us ;-)


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## markus_krk (Jul 27, 2013)

Skarhead said:


> Most of the riders where with maxxis beaver
> 
> Nino ran Ardent Race front and new maxxis prototype tyre rear
> 
> ...


Any new info on this Maxxis prototype?


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

Looks very close to a Rekon. But, a few more more transition knobs (that are also lower in height).


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Bunch of women are going to move down a position if AvdB is even halfway competent, technically.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/van-der-breggen-i-need-a-change-i-want-a-change/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Bunch of women are going to move down a position if AvdB is even halfway competent, technically.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/van-der-breggen-i-need-a-change-i-want-a-change/
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She did alright against some big names in Cyprus earlier this year:
https://www.activatecyprus.com/en/events/sunshinecup


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Bunch of women are going to move down a position if AvdB is even halfway competent, technically.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/van-der-breggen-i-need-a-change-i-want-a-change/
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe... We all know how skilled Peter Sagan is, but at the Olympics he was fast for a lap then fell back due to tire issues. I believe the tire issues were caused by a lack experience in World Cup level MTB racing. So while she may be a someone to watch I can't see her winning out of the gate. I would not be shocked to see her do well in short track at least at the the start. Certainly you probably don't want to be in sprint finish with her though.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

JoePAz said:


> Maybe... We all know how skilled Peter Sagan is, but at the Olympics he was fast for a lap then fell back due to tire issues. I believe the tire issues were caused by a lack experience in World Cup level MTB racing. So while she may be a someone to watch I can't see her winning out of the gate. I would not be shocked to see her do well in short track at least at the the start. Certainly you probably don't want to be in sprint finish with her though.


I'd be more worried about her taking off with a couple of laps to go, and never seeing her again. If you watch some of the races she's won, she's capable of riding people off her wheel and then expanding a gap all the way to the line. Against people like PFP.

IMO, she's the strongest female cyclist in the world at the moment. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_van_der_Breggen

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> I'd be more worried about her taking off with a couple of laps to go, and never seeing her again.
> 
> IMO, she's the strongest female cyclist in the world at the moment.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_van_der_Breggen
> ...


Always hard to compare between disciplines. But I know at Cypress Annikka was out climbing her. Annika just kept on flatting.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

It will be interesting to see if she can match Vos's results. Vos at her peak dabbled in mountain biking, I think she managed to sneak in a couple of top 10s. But Vos peaks was amazing, and Vos has impressive technical skills.


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

Re: Helen Grobert I'm guessing it was either over-training or good old fashioned burnout. People change a lot of the course of their lives and at some point if you aren't loving what you are doing, sometimes you need to change course.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Udyr said:


> Re: Helen Grobert I'm guessing it was either over-training or good old fashioned burnout. People change a lot of the course of their lives and at some point if you aren't loving what you are doing, sometimes you need to change course.


It sounds odd to say, but I'm glad we're seeing this take place. Not in a sense that it's a good thing that these women and riders in general are in a dark place. But that we are seeing them do what needs to be done to ensure their health and happiness in a world which brings with it a lot of pressure. It's enlightening to see that growth and courage.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

I completely missed the news that Pendrel is out with a broken arm 
https://cyclingmagazine.ca/mtb/pendrel-updates-injury-new-junior-scholarship/


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

spsoon said:


> I completely missed the news that Pendrel is out with a broken arm
> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/mtb/pendrel-updates-injury-new-junior-scholarship/


Man, that sucks. With that injury and having to miss two WC its gonna be hard picking up the pace for the last ones. Hopefully she recovers fast and well.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

spsoon said:


> I completely missed the news that Pendrel is out with a broken arm
> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/mtb/pendrel-updates-injury-new-junior-scholarship/


Damn that looks like it was a painful break. You need good TV to survive trainer-hell. I recommend: 
1. The Patriot 
2. Game of Thrones
3. Fauda
4. Fargo season 1


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

winters.benjamin said:


> Damn that looks like it was a painful break. You need good TV to survive trainer-hell. I recommend:
> 1. The Patriot
> 2. Game of Thrones
> 3. Fauda
> 4. Fargo season 1


Or Zwift races


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## Litemike (Sep 13, 2007)

wheelzqc said:


> I had a bike fit and it made me wonder about the pros. Why do most of the pros (whatever I saw on pinkbike, bikeradar and GMBN) seem to be riding sub 700mm bars and rarely a stem under 90mm. While, correct me if I'm wrong, I could assume that here the people ride 720+ bars and under 90mm (can even venture to say sub 80mm).
> 
> Longer stem to recruit more of the glutes ? Smaller bars for the world cup huge pack ?


Possible that the longer stem and shorter bars slows down steering. May be a preference of the pros. Another comment about the gal retiring - Do you guys feel that overall even in cat 1 its getting to be too much for many to keep up with while cat 2 is just too easy? I think there are a few super beings in each area that just make you change your mind - it may also be why the mass start races are so popular.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

spsoon said:


> I completely missed the news that Pendrel is out with a broken arm
> https://cyclingmagazine.ca/mtb/pendrel-updates-injury-new-junior-scholarship/


She is lucky that is all that happen, it was a seriously high speed get off with a big drop onto rocks. The crazy they is that is all that happened, no cuts, minimal bruises just a broken arm.

The worse part was on the hike out the mosquito's were absolutely wicked and poor Catharine couldn't actually swat them.

Right now we have her set-up with harness that she hangs from while punching out the trainer miles. Hoping to be back for MSA but that is really pushing the recovery timeline.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

Mathias Flückiger and Jolanda Neff are the new Swiss champions. 
A few weeks ago, Julien Absalon became the first French Champion ever, in E-Bike Cross Country.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

winters.benjamin said:


> Damn that looks like it was a painful break. You need good TV to survive trainer-hell. I recommend:
> 1. The Patriot
> 2. Game of Thrones
> 3. Fauda
> 4. Fargo season 1


Nate Hills https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCywMHpWJsb9GXD0lakYf6WA
Trail Peek https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBPN_pDX1jrT5BkuwjbaaIQ
BCPOV https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp6ZQ6TtOcqcANny0t8Fufw

^^those guys are fast and easy to watch and put out wattage.

Edited: to remove MTBR article



rallymaniac said:


> Or Zwift races


And this. It was a big help for me. I had to run a 1x11 with the shifter on the left side.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I like watching Battlestar Galactica on the trainer 

But I am also partial to Ben Goyette's videos too.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Sidewalk said:


> I like watching Battlestar Galactica on the trainer


That one has already been done. I think she killed that one a couple of winters back. Damm good series through. Plus a couple of the episode were shot where we are based.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Sidewalk said:


> But I am also partial to Ben Goyette's videos too.


I'm on the Goyette train as well. Great POV vids to help take my mind off the pain.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

No offense to anyone and the hard work that goes into the channels. But I dont know how you guys can stand to watch people race on fireroads. I am already in a cranky mood, overheating when having to ride indoors. Watching that type of content pisses me off (that i have selected the wrong video) in the moment and ends in a cloud of cursing and me jumping off the trainer to get to something interesting.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

LMN said:


> That one has already been done. I think she killed that one a couple of winters back. Damm good series through. Plus a couple of the episode were shot where we are based.


I chatted with her about that on the 'Grams when I recognized the background of a photo she posted from the show. BSG75 actually reminds me of my old military sailing days, they did a great job recreating actual ship life. So it is a great distraction on the trainer.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

FJSnoozer said:


> No offense to anyone and the hard work that goes into the channels. But I dont know how you guys can stand to watch people race on fireroads. I am already in a cranky mood, overheating when having to ride indoors. Watching that type of content pisses me off (that i have selected the wrong video) in the moment and ends in a cloud of cursing and me jumping off the trainer to get to something interesting.


Eh, Ben is a friend of mine racing the same trails I am racing. But out of the "12 channels to subscribe to", none of them work for me. I don't like edited footage or trail riding. Watching an actual race is what works for me, with all the good, bad, ugly, and sometimes boring. Different strokes.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

bananajoe said:


> Mathias Flückiger and Jolanda Neff are the new Swiss champions.
> A few weeks ago, Julien Absalon became the first French Champion ever, in E-Bike Cross Country.


I wonder if this is the first time he won on an e-bike?? (wink)


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

FJSnoozer said:


> No offense to anyone and the hard work that goes into the channels. But I dont know how you guys can stand to watch people race on fireroads. I am already in a cranky mood, overheating when having to ride indoors. Watching that type of content pisses me off (that i have selected the wrong video) in the moment and ends in a cloud of cursing and me jumping off the trainer to get to something interesting.


When I'm pushing intervals indoors, a good POV video helps to keep me focused. I can't really pay much attention to storylines or whatever when I'm in the red.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

winters.benjamin said:


> When I'm pushing intervals indoors, a good POV video helps to keep me focused. I can't really pay much attention to storylines or whatever when I'm in the red.


What I posted isnt story lines. Let follow cam friday stream and you will see. Even my wife agrees, it made intervals a breeze.

Races
BCPOV talks usually only for a minute before his races. as much as the staging time of a ben goyyette video.
enduro race:



He also has all stages of the BC Bike race:




The chatting and intro is well worth the scenery change.

Sidewalk, I watch plenty of POV racing vids. That's basicly how I survive while I am traveling. I am in hotels 5 days a week every other week from July to November. Back when Cooper Sellers used to film his XC races and no one had Gimbles, thats all I would watch.

Then he got a Gimble and a big bike and got more into Texas Enduro scene. 
https://www.youtube.com/user/coopers98

Does anyone know of some good POV crit racing? I think that would actually be interesting.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Sidewalk said:


> Eh, Ben is a friend of mine racing the same trails I am racing. But out of the "12 channels to subscribe to", none of them work for me. I don't like edited footage or trail riding. Watching an actual race is what works for me, with all the good, bad, ugly, and sometimes boring. Different strokes.


I dont like the 12 channels, That link just came up when I was pulling up the three I wanted to share. I thought I would share the other channels for people who actually like that kind of stuff. Those three I posted are business. Try to watch trailpeeks and not hit your power numbers.

I removed the article for you.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

FJSnoozer said:


> I dont like the 12 channels, That link just came up when I was pulling up the three I wanted to share. I thought I would share the other channels for people who actually like that kind of stuff. Those three I posted are business. Try to watch trailpeeks and not hit your power numbers.
> 
> I removed the article for you.


Didn't have to remove it on my account. I was trying to point out that not everyone likes the same thing...

That said, I have about a total of 3 hours on a trainer this year so far, but 500 hours out doors. So I can be picky about my viewing material


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Sidewalk said:


> Didn't have to remove it on my account. I was trying to point out that not everyone likes the same thing...
> 
> That said, I have about a total of 3 hours on a trainer this year so far, but 500 hours out doors. So I can be picky about my viewing material


I removed it because as you pointed out, it distracted from my whole point; GOOD TRAINER STOKE.

I spent some time on the trainer this year . Now I am just using it for structured intervals until my travel season starts and I resort to hotel recumbents. I'm not sure how I am going to manage my hours yet, but I have got to figure a way to get 5-7 hours in during the weekdays while traveling. I think last year I managed 2 avg.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

FJSnoozer said:


> I think last year I managed 2 avg.


Ouch! How about running?


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

FJSnoozer said:


> I removed it because as you pointed out, it distracted from my whole point; GOOD TRAINER STOKE.
> 
> I spent some time on the trainer this year . Now I am just using it for structured intervals until my travel season starts and I resort to hotel recumbents. I'm not sure how I am going to manage my hours yet, but I have got to figure a way to get 5-7 hours in during the weekdays while traveling. I think last year I managed 2 avg.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm with you on this. I'm hopping over the Atlantic a lot and it makes training consistency tough. I've had good luck renting bikes lately. More pricey than hotel recumbents but also more fun.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

MvdP won the Dutch national road championships.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Neff doing the double...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

MvdP won the Dutch road title today as well.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/netherlands-road-championships-2018/road-race-men/results/


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> MvdP won the Dutch road title today as well.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/netherlands-road-championships-2018/road-race-men/results/


Of course MVDP wasn't going against the stiffest competition. How would he fare against 22 year old Fernando Gaviria?

Any guesses as to next men's WC race in Val di Sole??

Last year it was Shurter and Tempier neck to neck till the very end then Shurter put it away.

Gaze, Shurter, Tempier, MVDP, Cooper??

Not a high altitude, techy or super climby course.

https://regio.outdooractive.com/oar...world-cup-finals-2017-cross-co/23567630/#dm=1


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

richwolf said:


> Of course MVDP wasn't going against the stiffest competition. How would he fare against 22 year old Fernando Gaviria?


Many riders near peak form for their respective national championships. Given that the Netherlands is the 4th ranked country in the world, and that the winners of many national championships in Europe will be wearing their country's flag in the biggest bike race in the world in a week and a half, I'd say that yes, he was up against some pretty stiff competition.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

It really shows how much depth xco has in these days. MVDP has achieved success in cyclocross and road against the best, yet he has still not gotten any win in a WC for xco. 
The win remains elusive and by the looks of it, it seems he won't be getting it this year. 

From the summary of the road race, he was in a breakaway, got caught up by the peloton and a bunch sprint happened at the end line and he managed to outsprint other sprinters to the finish line. That is quite a feat he did there.

Given his record, its hard to argue against his talent.


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## m3bas (Dec 24, 2011)

Le Duke said:


> Many riders near peak form for their respective national championships. Given that the Netherlands is the 4th ranked country in the world, and that the winners of many national championships in Europe will be wearing their country's flag in the biggest bike race in the world in a week and a half, I'd say that yes, he was up against some pretty stiff competition.


Ha ha, wins a Dutch national pro road title, not the stiffest competition...I watched the last 10kms, his ride was epic


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

m3bas said:


> Ha ha, wins a Dutch national pro road title, not the stiffest competition...I watched the last 10kms, his ride was epic


Yeah.






Also, did you see Viviani roll Visconti and Pozzovivo? Insane.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

TDLover said:


> It really shows how much depth xco has in these days.


No it really doesn't, what it shows is how physically gifted MvDP is that after picking up a MTB two years ago he's beating guys with a lifetime of experience. Shall we go into Nino's road career a few years back, got dropped on EVERY significant climb in the Tour of Romandie and Tour de Suisse and gave up. FWIW, literally tomorrow MvDP could sign a road contract for money Nino dreams about.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Viviani's ride was tactically brilliant. Those track skills served him well. He strikes me as a guy transitioning from pure sprinter to a more Flander/Roubaix guy.....if he stops racing 6 day stuff in winter.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Rivet said:


> No it really doesn't, what it shows is how physically gifted MvDP is that after picking up a MTB two years ago he's beating guys with a lifetime of experience. Shall we go into Nino's road career a few years back, got dropped on EVERY significant climb in the Tour of Romandie and Tour de Suisse and gave up. FWIW, literally tomorrow MvDP could sign a road contract for money Nino dreams about.


Does MVDP win a XC race this year?

Often times he goes out hard then pops then all those other guys with a lifetime of experience roll by him.

He seems to get frustrated when he gets challenged.

No doubt he is talented but there are a lot of other young riders out there that are his age and making huge splashes in the cycling world. Like Bernal and Garviria not to mention his nemesis Wout van Aert


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Rivet said:


> No it really doesn't, what it shows is how physically gifted MvDP is that after picking up a MTB two years ago he's beating guys with a lifetime of experience.


Which is exactly my point, a physically gifted athlete such as MVPD can't win in XCO on fitness alone anymore.

He has probably one of the best fitness in the XCO field if not the best, yet that is not enough to score a win. Additionally, whatever skills or xco specific training he requires to win has been shown is not easily attainable in the short term.

Post interview he also mentioned his future in MTB is questionable and that he might focus on road.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

TDLover said:


> Which is exactly my point, a physically gifted athlete such as MVPD can't win in XCO on fitness alone anymore.
> 
> He has probably one of the best fitness in the XCO field if not the best, yet that is not enough to score a win. Additionally, whatever skills or xco specific training he requires to win has been shown is not easily attainable in the short term.
> 
> Post interview he also mentioned his future in MTB is questionable and that he might focus on road.


I am wondering why he popped in many races if he had the best fitness? It appears he goes out hard and many times can't maintain the pace. Also in this sport you need to measure your efforts so you don't come off an uphill totally gassed and then crash on the downhill.

No doubt he has talent but even the best have to specialize in order to get to the top. He might be spreading himself too thin. Jordan thought he would do well in baseball but we saw how that turned out.

My guess is that he will be best served to road race, but can he take out the likes of Sagan and some of the upcoming young riders?

Do you really think he can dominate like Absolon and Shurter have in the XC races?

Trust me with those who have a "lifetime" of experience in MTB racing the last thing they want to see is someone coming in and taking their places on the podium.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

richwolf said:


> I am wondering why he popped in many races if he had the best fitness?
> 
> No doubt he has talent but even the best have to specialize in order to get to the top. He might be spreading himself too thin. Jordan thought he would do well in baseball but we saw how that turned out.
> 
> ...


He pops out because there is more to winning in xco than just putting watts. Adding the technical terrain, downhill sections, race tactics, all those things add up and matter a lot.

I believe he could dominate like Nino if he focused enough, but that would mean letting go a lot of competitions to excel in xco, as Nino did way back. At the moment, I don't think its what MVDP wants, which is why he is having second thoughts about it.

He is already successful at other bike disciplines and by the looks of it, those are way bigger than xco with everything that it entails (fame, money, recognition, etc).

Also don't get caught up in the way the media puts MVDP success in XCO. Of course those with lifetime experience in xco don't want a newcomer with no experience in the discipline coming to theirs and just excel, but that's not really what is happening.

MVDP is a world champion in cyclocross which is somewhat similar to xco, none of those lifetime xco athletes have been world champions except for Nino and Absalon, which really put in perspective that they are racing the best in the world in cyclocross, in others words hes not a newcomer, hes the most talented cyclist in his category.

P.s.

Regarding the Jordan basketball/baseball thing, I recommend the Sports Gene by David Epstein, it goes into detail explaining this kind of situation, also gives a good description as to what is genetically possible and what is trainable skill, quite insightful.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Jaroslav Kulhavy has both an Oly gold and WC stripes, when last I checked. 

MvdP pops because he isn’t as technically proficient as the top guys, which results in him going too deep trying to catch back up. Accumulation of errors over time. You can catch back up the first, second, third... but what about the tenth, eleventh and twelfth technical bobble? Where others get on the gas at a sustainable rate after a corner or rock garden, he might have to burn a match. 


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Jaroslav Kulhavy has both an Oly gold and WC stripes, when last I checked.
> 
> MvdP pops because he isn't as technically proficient as the top guys, which results in him going too deep trying to catch back up. Accumulation of errors over time. You can catch back up the first, second, third... but what about the tenth, eleventh and twelfth technical bobble? Where others get on the gas at a sustainable rate after a corner or rock garden, he might have to burn a match.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think his technique is on par with most others. My feeling is his technique goes to hell when he pops.

But the question remains. Who wins the next race this weekend? (and not that circus short track)


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> Jaroslav Kulhavy has both an Oly gold and WC stripes, when last I checked.
> 
> MvdP pops because he isn't as technically proficient as the top guys, which results in him going too deep trying to catch back up. Accumulation of errors over time. You can catch back up the first, second, third... but what about the tenth, eleventh and twelfth technical bobble? Where others get on the gas at a sustainable rate after a corner or rock garden, he might have to burn a match.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Those are great points and make the most sense of things written so far. Guess he has just enough matches for the short track portions...

Obviously, part of all the MVDP hoopla is that Absolon and Shurter have been crushing everyone for so long, folks have someone else to consider in the results.

But that's my very favorite thing about racing - whether it's cars, motorcycles, or mountain bikes: once the green flag drops, the BS stops. First one to the finish line wins - no more debating....


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Jaroslav Kulhavy has both an Oly gold and WC stripes, when last I checked.
> 
> MvdP pops because he isn't as technically proficient as the top guys, which results in him going too deep trying to catch back up. Accumulation of errors over time. You can catch back up the first, second, third... but what about the tenth, eleventh and twelfth technical bobble? Where others get on the gas at a sustainable rate after a corner or rock garden, he might have to burn a match.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This just isn't the case, he just hasn't figured the nuances of racing the mtb. The skills are there he just needs more time on the bike. That being said he will go to the road sooner than later because as good as he is in short events his talents are in hard hilly 200k+ one day classics like Liege and Amstel.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

richwolf said:


> Of course MVDP wasn't going against the stiffest competition. How would he fare against 22 year old Fernando Gaviria?


Dutch Road National championships not the stiffest competition? Have you ever been there? There aren't many harder NC races to win.

17 million people and own 23 million bicycles. At average, a Dutch cycles 1000 km/year in around 300 trips. Go compete there.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Goran_injo said:


> Dutch Road National championships not the stiffest competition? Have you ever been there? There aren't many harder NC races to win.
> 
> 17 million people and own 23 million bicycles. At average, a Dutch cycles 1000 km/year in around 300 trips. Go compete there.


Yeah pretty hilarious, Terpstra Roubaix AND Ronde va Vlaanderen, Domoulin Giro winner, yep no quality at all. In turn, the reason the Swiss do so well on the MTB, that's where all their cycling talent is...they suck on the road, they only have two men in the top 100 at 90 and 95th.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Goran_injo said:


> At average, a Dutch cycles 1000 km/year in around 300 trips. Go compete there.


I do that in two weeks. And I climb higher than the highest point in Netherlands with just about every ride outside of my commute. Not the best supporting evidence, as I doubt I can compete in their nationals (or could I?).


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Sidewalk said:


> I do that in two weeks. And I climb higher than the highest point in Netherlands with just about every ride outside of my commute. Not the best supporting evidence, as I doubt I can compete in their nationals (or could I?).


I think his point was that, in comparison, the average American probably rides a bike about 3km a year. Three.

Bikes are part of Dutch culture.

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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Goran_injo said:


> Dutch Road National championships not the stiffest competition? Have you ever been there? There aren't many harder NC races to win.
> 
> 17 million people and own 23 million bicycles. At average, a Dutch cycles 1000 km/year in around 300 trips. Go compete there.


3.3 K per trip. Now that is some serious training miles!! Sounds like a bunch of commuters to me.

Hey I did the 24 hour World Time Trial Championships 2 years ago and logged 521 K (324 miles)in 23 hours (took the last hour off) 4th place in my division.

In a bikepacking race I averaged 1126 K (700 miles) per week over 4 weeks.

I guess I should go over there and kick some ass! But at 65 it may be a little too late for that. Besides I can't bike in wooden shoes as my feet are much too sensitive. And when I go out with the local high school racing team (mid pack racers) they all clean my clock!

They own 1.35 bikes per person? Well I own 6 bikes so that makes me even better!

But seriously who wins this weekends race?


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

My bet is:

Men: 

Nino


Women:

Langvad
or
Neff


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> I think his point was that, in comparison, the average American probably rides a bike about 3km a year. Three.
> 
> Bikes are part of Dutch culture.


I know, I'm just saying that an active AVERAGE population doesn't mean the greatest are going to be even greater because of it. Countless members on this board defy the average, and would absolutely destroy the average Dutch rider without no effort what so ever.

If anything, the fact that the average American is...well...fat and lazy makes all of us here far more superior since we put in the extra mile. a 1k km/year average is just a simple metric like BMI. If you look at America's BMI, you would think we are worthless. Yet, when it comes to the Olympics...

Unrelated, I did look at the average mileage not long ago (not 3, but pretty damn low) and tried to do some statistical math. My results: There is a bumper with my name on it. I am so damn high risk of being killed on my bike that I might as well not plan a retirement, and just skip straight to the funeral.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Sidewalk said:


> I know, I'm just saying that an active AVERAGE population doesn't mean the greatest are going to be even greater because of it. Countless members on this board defy the average, and would absolutely destroy the average Dutch rider without no effort what so ever.
> 
> If anything, the fact that the average American is...well...fat and lazy makes all of us here far more superior since we put in the extra mile. a 1k km/year average is just a simple metric like BMI. If you look at America's BMI, you would think we are worthless. Yet, when it comes to the Olympics...
> 
> Unrelated, I did look at the average mileage not long ago (not 3, but pretty damn low) and tried to do some statistical math. My results: There is a bumper with my name on it. I am so damn high risk of being killed on my bike that I might as well not plan a retirement, and just skip straight to the funeral.


That's the reason I quit racing on the road. After a bunch of close calls, death threats and other confrontations, I got smoked by a Caddy SUV going 55mph while on leave.

I still own a road bike, but it's hanging by the rear triangle in my garage, with the wheels on an old HT frame for gravel use. It will probably be converted to single speed use so my wife can commute on it. If/when I get another, it will have room for 30mm+ tires to get some light gravel action.

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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Sidewalk said:


> I know, I'm just saying that an active AVERAGE population doesn't mean the greatest are going to be even greater because of it. Countless members on this board defy the average, and would absolutely destroy the average Dutch rider without no effort what so ever.


There is a correlation. Their pool of cycling talent is ingrained in the culture. If you have talent, it is tested, recognized, nursed and nourished from elementary onwards. Talent is fully supported by local, sponsor, state and infrastructure is fully in place.

If you fail to recognize the correlation, I can't fix that.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

richwolf said:


> 3.3 K per trip. Now that is some serious training miles!! Sounds like a bunch of commuters to me.
> 
> Hey I did the 24 hour World Time Trial Championships 2 years ago and logged 521 K (324 miles)in 23 hours (took the last hour off) 4th place in my division.
> 
> ...


Wow, I can't argue against these arguments. Dutch truly are a "bunch of commuters". I thought you were trying to bypass your ignorant statement on "not the stiffest competition" but you really are really, fully behind it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Goran_injo said:


> There is a correlation. Their pool of cycling talent is ingrained in the culture. If you have talent, it is tested, recognized, nursed and nourished from elementary onwards. Talent is fully supported by local, sponsor, state and infrastructure is fully in place.
> 
> If you fail to recognize the correlation, I can't fix that.


Yeah.

There's a reason the US sends the Junior and U23 national teams to Belgium and Holland. And a reason they, or no one else for that matter, sends their teams to the US.

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

richwolf said:


> They own 1.35 bikes per person? Well I own 6 bikes so that makes me even better!
> 
> But seriously who wins this weekends race?


Only 6 bikes? Do you only ride 6 days a week?

Men:
Four way battle between VDP, Gaze, Nino and Cooper. Gaze win sprint to the top of the virtual finish at the top of the last descent. Finish order Gaze, VDP, Nino Cooper.

Women:
Neff wins by a good margin, Maja 2nd, and Anne Tauber is 3rd.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Isn’t this the easy course? 

If so, Gaze is in the mix through the last lap, because he finally keeps the tires inflated. Nino makes a big move somewhere last lap. Someone we don’t expect comes up 2nd or 3rd with Gaze. 

Langvad wins.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Goran_injo said:


> There is a correlation. Their pool of cycling talent is ingrained in the culture. If you have talent, it is tested, recognized, nursed and nourished from elementary onwards. Talent is fully supported by local, sponsor, state and infrastructure is fully in place.
> 
> If you fail to recognize the correlation, I can't fix that.


It's a silly discussion I never should have engaged in. There is no argument about Americans performance vs the world. I think the closest we have had is Gwen Jorgensen in ITU.

I've seen the same type of talent nourishment from my old motorcycle racing world, where American's are also behind the world in promoting road racing talent. I know quite a few kids who have stayed in America, and other kids who have traveled overseas to race. You basically have to go to Spain if you want to ever hope to be a great racer (Italy is not far behind).

But it is far more complicated that "The Dutch are all riders" in terms of why they are producing good riders.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

My response was tongue in cheek
Hey I don't like our car culture more than the rest of us. It sucks and I use my bike as much as possible. I have been to Europe a couple of times for cycling and really liked it there, but our mountain biking blows theirs away!

My Guess: 
Men's Short Track MVDP
Men's XC: Gaze, Shurter, Cooper Tempier 
I watched lace year's race on Red Bull and if MVDP can win this year it might be on this course. Not too techy and the climbs are not brutal and I think the Altitude is under 3,000 feet.

Women's Short Track: Langvad
Women's XC: PFP, Langvad, Neff, Courtney


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

richwolf said:


> My response was tongue in cheek
> Hey I don't like our car culture more than the rest of us. It sucks and I use my bike as much as possible. I have been to Europe a couple of times for cycling and really liked it there, but our mountain biking blows theirs away!
> 
> My Guess:
> ...


Really hoping to see Courtney podium if not take a win. She's fighting hard in this first year of Elite and is giving it all she has.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

zgxtreme said:


> Really hoping to see Courtney podium if not take a win. She's fighting hard in this first year of Elite and is giving it all she has.


Ooooops ! I forgot about Belamonia. Top 3 for her probably. Women's field is stacked.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

richwolf said:


> I watched lace year's race on Red Bull and if MVDP can win this year it might be on this course. Not too techy and the climbs are not brutal and I think the Altitude is under 3,000 feet.


I agree, van der Poel showed strong form in the road race (I've actually never seen such power in the slight uphill sprint). Video:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1013422014386851842
He eased off Sinkeldam from the barriers with his arm *while sprinting* and just took off, after being in the escape group for much of the race. Goosebumps.

Course suits him, form is there, this is his chance.
But the question now is will we see him on XCO any more after the win in Dutch NC. He clearly has full Classics winning potential and we will see how this pans out.

Personally I would like to see him fully transition to XCO/M. That would really mean that he is after his off road passion, not "only" money/prestige, but on the other side, you have got to make a living as an athlete and careers don't last forever.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Goran_injo said:


> Personally I would like to see him fully transition to XCO/M. That would really mean that he is after his off road passion, not "only" money/prestige, but on the other side, you have got to make a living as an athlete and careers don't last forever.


He'll never transition to XCO full time. I predict he'll transition to the road full time quicker if he ever gets his first win in XCO World Cup. He's a competitor for sure and he wants that XCO win on his palmares but the lure of fame and fortune on the road will get most of his attention eventually. His maternal grandfather was a great road cyclist and MvdP's father was also good on the road so it's in his DNA. I'd love to see the kid battling in the spring at the Cobbled Classics. He definitely has the build, the engine, and the skills to be a force in Flanders and Paris Roubaix.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Goran_injo said:


> Personally I would like to see him fully transition to XCO/M. That would really mean that he is after his off road passion, not "only" money/prestige, but on the other side, you have got to make a living as an athlete and careers don't last forever.


In someways it is "money/prestige" that keeps top CX riders and MTB riders from racing on the road.

Van der Poel is rumour to make nearly a million a year racing CX (contract, prize money, start money, ect...), Nino the same.. There is not a single road team that is going to pay a rider who has never started a world tour race a million, doesn't matter how good his potential is.

To make a million on the road you have to be winning big events. Van der Poel certainly could be winning big events, or he could have a career like Stybar. Which is not a million dollar career.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

LMN said:


> In someways it is "money/prestige" that keeps top CX riders and MTB riders from racing on the road.
> 
> Van der Poel is rumour to make nearly a million a year racing CX (contract, prize money, start money, ect...), Nino the same.. There is not a single road team that is going to pay a rider who has never started a world tour race a million, doesn't matter how good his potential is.
> 
> To make a million on the road you have to be winning big events. Van der Poel certainly could be winning big events, or he could have a career like Stybar. Which is not a million dollar career.


Nope. At this point he will be able to get a million dollar contract just for sheer marketing potential (on the road) And: one million is not that much after all.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

LMN said:


> Only 6 bikes? Do you only ride 6 days a week?
> 
> Men:
> Four way battle between VDP, Gaze, Nino and Cooper. Gaze win sprint to the top of the virtual finish at the top of the last descent. Finish order Gaze, VDP, Nino Cooper.
> ...


If not 7 days a week!

3 of the bikes get the most use.

As far as our culture not putting Americans in the top spots in cycling. Well there is always baseball, football and basketball!

But in downhill racing the US is doing more than OK, Don't know about Enduro, But we have some top women in the XC and CX racing.

I don't really care if we have the top riders or not. I can cheer for (and against) the Euros!

We are about big county, big guns, big bellies, and big cars!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chilla13 said:


> Nope. At this point he will be able to get a million dollar contract just for sheer marketing potential (on the road) And: one million is not that much after all.


Those of us who follow CX, MTB and road tend to think that most cycling fans are like us. However, most road racing fans do not follow CX and MTB at all. Very few road racing fans had any idea who Wout Van Aert was before the spring classics. Names like Nino, 
and MVDP are completely unknown.

And a million is a lot in road racing. If you look at a team like Quick Step, they have a budget of 18 million. This budget goes to
28 riders
1 CEO
3 managers
8 trainers
6 doctors
9 Mechanics
4 Physio
8 Soigneurs 
3 Office Employees
4 Communication Employees
3 Bus drivers.

Never mind travel, hotels, purchase of non-sponsor equipment, cars, busses, tools ect.. Simple math to see that a million for a rider is a big deal.

What MVDP can do in first 20 minutes of a race is mind blowing. But to be successful in world tour road racing you have to that pace after 6hrs of racing. A million for a rider who hasn't demonstrated that yet is a big risk.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

LMN said:


> Those of us who follow CX, MTB and road tend to think that most cycling fans are like us. However, most road racing fans do not follow CX and MTB at all. Very few road racing fans had any idea who Wout Van Aert was before the spring classics. Names like Nino,
> and MVDP are completely unknown.
> 
> And a million is a lot in road racing. If you look at a team like Quick Step, they have a budget of 18 million. This budget goes to
> ...


I am living very very close to the Netherlands and Belgium and every school boy around here knows who MVDP is (and knows about his ancestry).
Salary: he has always been viewed as an assett by Shimano. I guess they would gladly pay a big part of his monthly income (as Specialized does for Peter Sagan).


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I would be very, very surprised if MvdP isn’t making a million Euro a year on the road in his first WT contract. 




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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Well the vale de sol short track looked a bit more "mountainbikey" than the last couple. Not entirely sure I'm sold on the short track stuff yet, but hey more mtbing on the tv = good stuff.


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

mik_git said:


> Well the vale de sol short track looked a bit more "mountainbikey" than the last couple. Not entirely sure I'm sold on the short track stuff yet, but hey more mtbing on the tv = good stuff.


I thought the previous short track courses were awful and it wasn't mountain biking, to me. I was merely interested in who won, but didn't care to watch. This one was far better and I could get into watching races like this - although I much prefer to watch XCO.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

^agree


In another note, thought the scott video of Nino's retro inspired bike was a bit of giggle.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Where's the video of nino's retro bike? I'd like to see that.

The thing I took away from both mens and womens XCC was how UN-tired Annika and Nino were when done compared to MVDP and the others. 

Annika walked around like it was a training ride, Nino sat next to MVDP and looked way more cool than the winner. MVDP dug DEEP on those climbs. It worked and was awesome to ride.

Annika will kill them Sunday, pretty sure of that, but MVDP went so deep I don't think he'll last for the full XCO. Nino realized quickly I think that he should just take it easy and be happy with 2nd place. 

I agree with the other post above - I'm still not sure this whole friday XCC race makes any sense. Having it after the main XCO like it used to be in the US, and say, 30% of points, maybe. Just for an extra thing. But then everyone would just go home.

I'd rather have seen one or two more regular old XCO races added then the XCC. It messes things up too much I think.


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

Im sure the vid for Ninos bike can be found elsewhere, but here's where I found it:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1015222832413007873


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

scottg said:


> Im sure the vid for Ninos bike can be found elsewhere, but here's where I found it:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1015222832413007873


That's a good lookin bike.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> That's the reason I quit racing on the road. After a bunch of close calls, death threats and other confrontations, I got smoked by a Caddy SUV going 55mph while on leave.
> 
> I still own a road bike, but it's hanging by the rear triangle in my garage, with the wheels on an old HT frame for gravel use. It will probably be converted to single speed use so my wife can commute on it. If/when I get another, it will have room for 30mm+ tires to get some light gravel action.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So you are going to send your wife off to the gallows instead?!!!!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

MVDP is king of the short track! In this type of racing he makes the men look like boys. What happened to Gaze? Saving it for Sunday?

Annika probably has never ever been in better shape. She dragged Courtney around South Africa in the Cape Epic stage race which they easily won. Will she start fading the next few races?

Yolanda is Ms. Polyanna. Great interview with her before and after the race.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Goran_injo said:


> Wow, I can't argue against these arguments. Dutch truly are a "bunch of commuters". I thought you were trying to bypass your ignorant statement on "not the stiffest competition" but you really are really, fully behind it.


Ya, commit or go home! (wink)


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Glad to see an XCC course that favors attackers and aggressive racing. MvdP and Annika were worthy winners. It looked to me like Nino either hit a wall or decided to cut his losses and race for second during lap 8. Something I've never seen him do before.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Glad to see an XCC course that favors attackers and aggressive racing. MvdP and Annika were worthy winners. It looked to me like Nino either hit a wall or decided to cut his losses and race for second during lap 8. Something I've never seen him do before.


I think it was exactly as he said it in the post interview. He rather take second and try to recover for Sunday, as opposed to try to catch MVDP and risk not being 100% on Sunday.

Either way, even going all out I'm not sure he would be able to catch MVDP. He also seemed to be at his limit, so probably even if he wanted he wouldn't be able to do much.

Annika is in good form, yesterday she even looked leaner than in other WC's, I think she will be unbeatable on Sunday.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

No good for the carnage in the womens.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Well that was a cracker of a race for the womens.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Great mens race, especially the last 2 laps. Captain Shurter really proved his mettle today by staying calm and timing the winning move perfectly. Gerhard was super impressive, those Italians would have went nuts had he pulled it off. Van der Poel looked absolutely pissed on the podium.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Too bad for Annika. Word is nothing broken but sometimes with sprains and ligament damage it takes a while to recover. I doubt she races next weekend. Yolanda is points leader now.

MVDP needs to lighten up. He did a fine race today but again it appears that a 1.5 hour XC race against the best might be too much for him. Next weekend's course does him no favors either. The rest of the riders would be doing backflips if they were second in the standings.

How many more efforts like that does Nino have in him??


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

^ Five, to beat Absalon’s record WC wins. (Four gets him a tie.)


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

MattMay said:


> ^ Five, to beat Absolon's record WC wins. (Four gets him a tie.)


Two years ago or so, that record looked almost unreachable, no it looks very close...


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## pamoreira (Jan 6, 2016)

bananajoe said:


> Two years ago or so, that record looked almost unreachable, no it looks very close...


Guessing his targets now are to surpass or match Absalon in the stats. This means the number of WC victories and a second olympic gold medal at Tokyo.

Judging by his current form and consistency, odds are he will do the first one - he still seems to have a small edge over the rest of the field this year. Curious to see how he fares over the next couple of years/seasons, and how he will approach them.

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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

mik_git said:


> Well that was a cracker of a race for the womens.


Loved watching Batty. That's the strongest I've seen her in a long time.


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

winters.benjamin said:


> Loved watching Batty. That's the strongest I've seen her in a long time.


Absolutely! She looked strong and gave everything to get 2nd, beating Neff & PFP ain't easy. Hope she gets that first WC win next week in Andorra. I wonder how much team tactics came into play there, kinda looked like Neff let a gap open up intentionally there on the 2nd to last lap?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

pinkpowa said:


> Absolutely! She looked strong and gave everything to get 2nd, beating Neff & PFP ain't easy. Hope she gets that first WC win next week in Andorra. I wonder how much team tactics came into play there, kinda looked like Neff let a gap open up intentionally there on the 2nd to last lap?


Watch out for Belamonia next weekend. She killed them last year on the course.

MVDP dropped out last year. Not a good course for him. Altitude and a lot of climbing.


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## AztecRider (Oct 31, 2008)

pinkpowa said:


> Absolutely! She looked strong and gave everything to get 2nd, beating Neff & PFP ain't easy. Hope she gets that first WC win next week in Andorra. I wonder how much team tactics came into play there, kinda looked like Neff let a gap open up intentionally there on the 2nd to last lap?


If not next week, Emily would love to win in Mount Sainte-Anne!

Yeah, it seemed to me to that Jolanda allowed Maja to go. And that forced Pauline to work very hard! Emily too, but she played it well.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

AztecRider said:


> If not next week, Emily would love to win in Mount Sainte-Anne!
> 
> Yeah, it seemed to me to that Jolanda allowed Maja to go. And that forced Pauline to work very hard! Emily too, but she played it well.


Smart racing as a team. One person is caught and the other one goes while everyone that had to chase is still hurting.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Emily had a great race. Got in the front pack and stayed there out of site until the end. Neff is clearly the strongest technically as it was fun to see her hit step up jump and pull away on the downhill. To bad she cracked on that last lap. Emily rode smart and took advantage where she could. Sometimes all you need is to hang around long enough and be there to make a move. Maja gambled and it paid off. I bet she expected Neff to bring her back, but I never happened. Who knows how it would have played out with Langvad in the the mix. Tauber did well considering getting slowed in the crash. 

As for the short track. I really like this course. Not at all like road race, but really short fast Mtb race. Some tough climbs, tight turns and enough techy descents to make you think a little. Good for the show. 


And watching the mens and womens races I find the women's more interesting. I think it because with the women you can see how hard the course it. You can see when they struggle up the really steep bits. The top men make it look so easy that you think you can do that. Watching the women knowing they will ride past you like you standing still and still seeing them work so hard tells you how tough these riders are.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

The women's races are always awesome. I find myself looking forward to them way more then the Men's races now. Especially when Gunn Rita is still up there.


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

I ended up starting to watch the women's race after the end of the 2nd lap, what happened to Van der Breggen? Was she caught up in that first lap crash?


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

cal_len1 said:


> I ended up starting to watch the women's race after the end of the 2nd lap, what happened to Van der Breggen? Was she caught up in that first lap crash?


No, she was not caught up in that crash. She finished 30th, if I recall correctly during the race she went as close as 22th behind Anne Tauber, apparently soon after that she lost some positions to finally end in 30th, not a bad race for being the first one though.

I actually expected more from her as this is a mellow track, the coming ones are way more difficult for a roadie.


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

Thanks for that, based on this track I expected her to be faster based on pure fitness alone. Oh well, it seemed like she was getting bored in WWT, so hopefully she ups the skills and comes back.


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## exodus1500 (Jun 5, 2010)

I was surprised by the amount of big numbered plates finishing in the top 15ish of the men's race.


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## frank6262 (Oct 9, 2006)

i know.. weird observation... but Yolanda trackside watching the mens race in her kit... i was always taught when i first riding (Alan of Jenson Bikes!)... get OUT of yr riding shorts immediately... avoid saddle sores! ?


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

frank6262 said:


> i know.. weird observation... but Yolanda trackside watching the mens race in her kit... i was always taught when i first riding (Alan of Jenson Bikes!)... get OUT of yr riding shorts immediately... avoid saddle sores! ?


She probably showered, changed, put on makeup and a fresh kit for pictures, especially if she was on podium.


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## frank6262 (Oct 9, 2006)

of course yea duh.. thats got be what she did.. plus probably enough time btwn womens and mens races.. strike my lame question...


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

What I find odd is that she does that all the time and she is there by herself alone, I mean no fans making a crowd around her or asking for pictures. Perhaps because its Europe, but when top riders come to my country, there are hundreds of people waiting to have a chance at talking with a pro or asking for a picture or to sign them something.


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

Annika posting on IG from Andorra that the wrist is feeling good, no issues on pre ride. Should be a good race from her then, let's see if Emily keeps up with PFP/Annika/Neff going hard early (I hope so). Emily looks hungry & strong, love to see her get her first WC win.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

frank6262 said:


> i know.. weird observation... but Yolanda trackside watching the mens race in her kit... i was always taught when i first riding (Alan of Jenson Bikes!)... get OUT of yr riding shorts immediately... avoid saddle sores! ?


I've never heard of that. Especially from something as short as an XCO race.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Sidewalk said:


> I've never heard of that. Especially from something as short as an XCO race.


I always change asap after a ride because it feels pretty skanky not to. I would think most pros would do the same to avoid any potential issues, an hour and a half is more than enough time to soak a chamois. To each his or her own of course.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

If I can ride for 6hrs, I don't see why it would be a problem to ride for 2hrs and then stand around. Other than being stinky


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## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

Power and VAM are nonsense. There are only 2 real training metrics for cyclists: 'shammy time' and Pop-Tart wrappers. Jolanda was clearly upping her shammy time game. As a result, she will be a force to be reckoned with come MSA.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Rob and Bart commented that Yolanda was wearing clean gear.


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## frank6262 (Oct 9, 2006)

( ive had a gnarly "saddle sore" once or twice...couldnt ride.

anyway... im excited to see how Howard Grotts will do...12th place right? top 10 Andorra? he's a climber!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

frank6262 said:


> ( ive had a gnarly "saddle sore" once or twice...couldnt ride.
> 
> anyway... im excited to see how Howard Grotts will do...12th place right? top 10 Andorra? he's a climber!


Yeah, I was impressed with his result. Particularly given his relatively high plate number, lack of WC racing and recent focus on longer races.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Once I thought I was wrong but I was wrong! But now I think I am wrong. I am starting to dig the short track addition. One more day of race watching and you get to know the characters better plus the tracks seem to be getting better.
MVDP said racing at altitude is not his thing. Well he better rethink dominating at XC racing then!
Italian dude looks legit and Avancini looks in awesome shape now.
Glad to see Annika back at it. I never thought she would be back this week or as strong.
I think Neff is holding back and is going to peak for the end of the season and World Championship.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Three observations. 

Yolanda needs to try shifting to a higher gear climbing.

MVDP should cheer up. 

This was a much better course.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

I don't think Neff has ever held back anything!


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## AztecRider (Oct 31, 2008)

kevbikemad said:


> Three observations.
> 
> Yolanda needs to try shifting to a higher gear climbing.
> 
> ...


I liked Val di Sole more. The rock garden gave it a more MTB feel. Although Andorra was good too. And there was way more spectators than the other races!

MVDP is only happy when he wins


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

I have been indifferent on the Short Track leaning towards loving it since it’s simply more racing to watch. Today however I love it as watching the condensed format even got my wife mentioning that maybe we’d get her a bike once we’re debt free. So for that I thank UCI and Red Bull.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

The last two XCC courses have been good. The previous ones were uninspiring at best. 

I like races and courses that favor attacking as opposed to drafting, though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

That seemed to really punish the flatter-landers


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

kevbikemad said:


> Yolanda needs to try shifting to a higher gear climbing.


Not that I have a clue on the realities of these things, it's like shes really fit, an incredible decender and while she can get up climbs fine...by spinning a high cadence, so when she's doing here own thing (out front with a gap) she fine, but when she's with others and the pace up, she only spins up, where as others mash a bigger gear for 10 strokes say and pull a big gap and she can't do that so she gets dumped.

But yeah, these courses are much better, the first 2 were lametastic, IIRC they seemed to be the old XCE courses, and were lame then. need some climbing, some techy decending and wham, it's fun times.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

kevbikemad said:


> Three observations.
> 
> Yolanda needs to try shifting to a higher gear climbing.
> 
> ...


Yes it looks like Jolanda might want to do some low cadence/high power intervals in training to help her on some of the short, punchy climbs so she has another tool to use.

And, maybe a result of her crashing last week, Annika needs to work on her cornering skills. This short track race was a great way to watch all the top riders take certain sections and Annika looked really tentative cornering. With her power, she'd be unstoppable if she could corner like Jolanda.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Stonerider said:


> Yes it looks like Jolanda might want to do some low cadence/high power intervals in training to help her on some of the short, punchy climbs so she has another tool to use.
> 
> And, maybe a result of her crashing last week, Annika needs to work on her cornering skills. This short track race was a great way to watch all the top riders take certain sections and Annika looked really tentative cornering. With her power, she'd be unstoppable if she could corner like Jolanda.


No and no.

Why don't you call them up and tell them to get some new coaches! In fact I think you should offer to coach them.

I think Annika crashed last week in a group pile up. Nothing you can do about that. Happened to Nino in a short track race too.

Yolanda stated that she is trying to peak at Mt. Saint Ann (about a month away).

These ladies are one and two in the overall. I think the people behind them might need the coaching!

I am going with Belamonia in the XC race tomorrow.

I think Avancini and the Italian dude will push Shurter tomorrow.

The racers are starting to figure out the Short Track now. Going for the win burns a lot of matches and there are more points to be had on Sundays.

Does anyone know what the standings would be if the short track results were taken out?


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Results without shortrack would be roughly the same, Nino on top, followed by MVDP and Marrotte. Sam Gaze would be the one way down, but that is because of his inconsistency. 


Imo, Jolanda's way of pedaling is fine, it is true she lacks some top end power, but that is just her genetics, training to improve it to a degree that it competes with naturals like Annika's is wasting too much effort. If anything she needs different racing tactics, so you don't leave it to that final attack or sprint. 

I would like to see short track courses modified to elicit more attacks, create more choke points where the leader has the advantage leading out, that way more riders will be keen to attack on certain sections and create a gap. In these short tracks, courses should be designed to eliminate drafting advantage as much as possible. 

For tomorrow's race I'm going with:

Men:
Nino
Tempier
Marotte (the eternal third)


As for MVDP I think he will crack again or finish outside of top 10. 

Women:

Maja or Anikka
PFP
Batty
Belamoina
Neff


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

My rough calculation not including minor placings is XC only:

Shurter: 950
Marotte: at least 470
MVDP: 470
Avancini: at least 380
Vogel:at least 360

Nino is almost as dominant this year as last year and perhaps with the addition of short track perhaps even more so. Every other rider has had at least one stinker of a race but not Nino. And I think he is facing even tougher competition this year.


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

The correct spelling of their names is important; its *J*olanda and S*c*hurter. For me, it helps your argument if you spell their names correctly.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

For all the talk about FS bikes on the descents, I'm not seeing a disadvantage to a hardtail on the descents at this level. At least not with the ladies.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

beastmaster said:


> The correct spelling of their names is important; its *J*olanda and S*c*hurter. For me, it helps your argument if you spell their names correctly.


Don't stress about me butchering names. If my argument sucks so be it. If it just falls apart on spelling well then there are bigger problems.

I am going with Joelanda and Shirter.

And spell her name without looking and then try to pronounce it and you get the gold star!
Maja Włoszczowska


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Great win for Gunn Rita Dahle! It was her 30th WC win in her mid 40's. Very Impressive! 

Also, I'm a big Nino fan but it was great to see someone else step up and take the win. MvdP impressed me as well by taking 3rd as I thought this would be a bad course for him but he had great legs today and paced himself well.


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## XCKiwi (Jan 26, 2010)

It's like the 'old' generation isn't ready to hand over just yet. Maja and Gunn-Rita back to back - 6 years and 3 years since their last wins. Incredible! I really thought Emily was finally going to climb on to that top step yesterday before she had her mechanical. But with the form GDR had... Emily's motivation will be huuuge for MSA! But I'm hoping Catharine will be back in the mix there. It'll be exciting, that's for sure.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Shocked by both races. No way I would have given Gunn Rita a chance at the win.
Jolanda had a better race than I expected and extended her points lead. Annika had a good weekend in spite of the injury.

Not surprised by Gerhard Kerschbaumer winning but shocked that Van de Poel had a steady consistent race on this course. Good on him. Avancini had a great day too. 

Fun racing to watch.

Then there is the Tour de France which had an epic day today.

How is my spelling today??


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

XCKiwi said:


> It's like the 'old' generation isn't ready to hand over just yet. Maja and Gunn-Rita back to back - 6 years and 3 years since their last wins. Incredible! I really thought Emily was finally going to climb on to that top step yesterday before she had her mechanical. But with the form GDR had... Emily's motivation will be huuuge for MSA! But I'm hoping Catharine will be back in the mix there. It'll be exciting, that's for sure.


Rob and Bart are perhaps optimistic about Catharine racing MSA. She might be racing then but La Bresse is likely her return to competition.

I had picked Emily last night for win, but even without the mechanical I am not sure she would have had the legs to match the rather impressive Gunn-Rita. She will have a good shot at MSA but that is a course that both Jolanda and Gunn-Rita ride really well.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

LMN said:


> Rob and Bart are perhaps optimistic about Catharine racing MSA. She might be racing then but La Bresse is likely her return to competition.
> 
> I had picked Emily last night for win, but even without the mechanical I am not sure she would have had the legs to match the rather impressive Gunn-Rita. She will have a good shot at MSA but that is a course that both Jolanda and Gunn-Rita ride really well.


OK... I'll be the jerk..... Lance was my hero for years. It crushed me to find out he was a cheater. As a result, call me cynical and a skeptic.

What kind of drug testing does UCI do for World Cup XC?

Gunne Rita???? Really? At altitude? 45 years old? Color me doubtful of a legal effort.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

jrob300 said:


> OK... I'll be the jerk..... Lance was my hero for years. It crushed me to find out he was a cheater. As a result, call me cynical and a skeptic.
> 
> What kind of drug testing does UCI do for World Cup XC?
> 
> Gunne Rita???? Really? At altitude? 45 years old? Color me doubtful of a legal effort.


They test a lot. Catharine is typically tested 10-20 times a year.

Remember at her peak Gunn-rita would win 7 out of 8 races per season, and she would win by a lot. The best of all time can still win once in a while.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

jrob300 said:


> OK... I'll be the jerk..... Lance was my hero for years. It crushed me to find out he was a cheater. As a result, call me cynical and a skeptic.
> 
> What kind of drug testing does UCI do for World Cup XC?
> 
> Gunne Rita???? Really? At altitude? 45 years old? Color me doubtful of a legal effort.


Anti-doping is the same for XC as it is for road, with the top Mtbkers on the same 60min window system as for roadies. It's a hell of a lot tougher than most sports.

To be honest it is Pretty unfair to cast doping aspertions ever, especially when even false rumours can be hard to shake sometimes.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Hey LMN, after the rough start to Emily's season with finishes in the teens she posted on IG that her and Adam had tried something new in her training and it hadn't worked out and they needed to change. That change obviously worked, what do you suppose they had tried that didn't work? She's been good at the XCC and XCO in this current race stretch. Obviously the long stretch of altitude training has helped, and ought to help her at the Nats in Canmore. Is there something else more unusual they were trying?



LMN said:


> I had picked Emily last night for win, but even without the mechanical I am not sure she would have had the legs to match the rather impressive Gunn-Rita. She will have a good shot at MSA but that is a course that both Jolanda and Gunn-Rita ride really well.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

LMN said:


> They test a lot. Catharine is typically tested 10-20 times a year.
> 
> Remember at her peak Gunn-rita would win 7 out of 8 races per season, and she would win by a lot. The best of all time can still win once in a while.


I was hoping you'd chime in, as you're as close to this as anyone...



insidertrading said:


> To be honest it is Pretty unfair to cast doping aspertions ever, especially when even false rumours can be hard to shake sometimes.


You're correct. Ask Mr. Froome. We'll see how that turns out.... in re-reading my post, it comes pretty close to an accusation, and that was not my intent. Poor wording. But if you've not watched a doping scandal unravel before your very eyes, you may not understand the emotions and the cynical skepticism that can arise. My motto at this point is, : "If something seems to good to be true, it probably is".

I really hope that my concerns are unfounded, as it was an amazing performance.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

rockyuphill said:


> Hey LMN, after the rough start to Emily's season with finishes in the teens she posted on IG that her and Adam had tried something new in her training and it hadn't worked out and they needed to change. That change obviously worked, what do you suppose they had tried that didn't work? She's been good at the XCC and XCO in this current race stretch. Obviously the long stretch of altitude training has helped, and ought to help her at the Nats in Canmore. Is there something else more unusual they were trying?


Emily and Adam are pretty private about their training. I have a pretty limited knowledge of what they do.

I know that this year to get a WC win they decided to take a risk and try something completely different. Her volume through the winter up by a significant percentage. I think her riding in the spring was due to a very high fatigue level.

I did a couple of rides with her in the spring, and on a training ride she looked really fast. I was quite surprised when she didn't have that same speed at the first couple of races.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

jrob300 said:


> I was hoping you'd chime in, as you're as close to this as anyone...
> 
> You're correct. Ask Mr. Froome. We'll see how that turns out.... in re-reading my post, it comes pretty close to an accusation, and that was not my intent. Poor wording. But if you've not watched a doping scandal unravel before your very eyes, you may not understand the emotions and the cynical skepticism that can arise. My motto at this point is, : "If something seems to good to be true, it probably is".
> 
> I really hope that my concerns are unfounded, as it was an amazing performance.


I think that if you want a pollyanna world you aren't going to get it. One thing I learned is if you want to watch cycling or any sport for that matter then take it as it is. \

I enjoy the racing and the spectacle of it all. I view it as my favorite source of entertainment. I watch all the red bull stuff and have a yearly subscription to nbc gold cycling. Road, mountain, downhill, cyclo cross you name it I will watch it.

It is better than watching the news or getting caught up in something you can't change.

Go to cycling news and go to their forums and read "the clinic" and the posters there that go on and on and on (literally for years) about doping. What a waste of time and energy.

But I digress, Who wins Mount Sainte Annie?

My guesses:

Joelanda, Batty, Prevot,

Shirter, Gerhard and I can't believe I am saying this but MVDP? I am going to watch last year's race before my final guess.

I think Van de Poel is learning about pacing for a longer event. Since he used to have so much success (particularly in cross) by going out hard and getting a big gap I think he got used to it. Tearing the handlebars off the bike for 90 minutes doesn't work.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

jrob300 said:


> I was hoping you'd chime in, as you're as close to this as anyone...
> 
> You're correct. Ask Mr. Froome. We'll see how that turns out.... in re-reading my post, it comes pretty close to an accusation, and that was not my intent. Poor wording. But if you've not watched a doping scandal unravel before your very eyes, you may not understand the emotions and the cynical skepticism that can arise. My motto at this point is, : "If something seems to good to be true, it probably is".
> 
> I really hope that my concerns are unfounded, as it was an amazing performance.


Anyone who follows cycling has seen many doping scandals unfold. Some of us have seen them unfold with people we knew and raced against. That doesn't mean we all become cynics every time someone has a great day on the bike - and as someone already mentioned, Dahle-Flesjaa is one of the all-time greats and has had good form recently, so it's not a huge surprise.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

richwolf said:


> Who wins Mount Sainte Annie?
> 
> My guesses:
> 
> ...


I like your picks. Here are mine:

1. Yana Belomoina
2. Jolanda Neff
3. Pauline Ferrand Prevot
4. Emily Batty
5. Kate Courtney
-Keller, Tauber or Benko will likely sneak into one of those spots..

1. Shurter
2. Marotte
3. Tempier 
4. Van Der Poel
5. Bart Brentjens sneaks onto the podium!!!!

Can't wait to get there!


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## sammieandkrisbey (Apr 16, 2014)

I don't follow the XC World Cup too closely but is there a reason there aren't too many Santa Cruz bikes in the field? I see a lot of the bigger brands like Specialized, BMC, Scott, etc. I'm guessing SC is more invested in their DH program would be my best guess. I ask because they have the new Blur and Highball which imo are XC race bikes, unless I'm mistaken.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

It's as much about marketing focus as anything else, they are obviously keenly interested in the marketing of the Syndicate DH team and the Enduro series.

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-CA/riders



sammieandkrisbey said:


> I don't follow the XC World Cup too closely but is there a reason there aren't too many Santa Cruz bikes in the field? I see a lot of the bigger brands like Specialized, BMC, Scott, etc. I'm guessing SC is more invested in their DH program would be my best guess. I ask because they have the new Blur and Highball which imo are XC race bikes, unless I'm mistaken.


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## XCKiwi (Jan 26, 2010)

LMN said:


> Rob and Bart are perhaps optimistic about Catharine racing MSA. She might be racing then but La Bresse is likely her return to competition.
> 
> I had picked Emily last night for win, but even without the mechanical I am not sure she would have had the legs to match the rather impressive Gunn-Rita. She will have a good shot at MSA but that is a course that both Jolanda and Gunn-Rita ride really well.


Exactly what I said to Kim about Emily - her form was looking bang on to finally take one out. And then GRD rolled up and smoked the lot of them!

I figured that's probably where Catharine is at, but if she is on the start line I can't be in anyone else's corner  If Catharine can't do it, I'll be stoked if Emily wins in MSA!


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

LMN said:


> They test a lot. Catharine is typically tested 10-20 times a year.
> 
> Remember at her peak Gunn-rita would win 7 out of 8 races per season, and she would win by a lot. The best of all time can still win once in a while.


I could be wrong, but I thought that Emily said in her post race interview that Gunn-Rita would not be at MSA.


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

scottg said:


> I could be wrong, but I thought that Emily said in her post race interview that Gunn-Rita would not be at MSA.


Yes, that is correct.

I really want to see Emily get that first win, she is really fast right now. Bummer she had that dropped chain.


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

cal_len1 said:


> Yes, that is correct.
> 
> I really want to see Emily get that first win, she is really fast right now. Bummer she had that dropped chain.


Me too - it was nice to see that she didn't chalk it up to bad luck or a bad bike setup and said it was her own mistake which makes me want her to get the win even more. I don't know that she would have won today anyway but I believe she could have comfortably been 2nd and you never know. She certainly burned a lot of extra energy hovering behind riders hoping for a chance to pass on the steep climbs where you can't save energy by being in the wheels and it's tough to pass without multiple smooth lines.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Lap 3 into the men's at the moment and I don't know if I just haven't paid enough attention during previous events... but kudos to Red Bull as they had some great camera placement for this venue. Been great to watch thus far


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## EndoAgain (Apr 8, 2005)

Regarding Emily I can't say anything about her training but she looks five pounds lighter this year. Didn't know about her "new" training but remarked to a friend two races ago she looked leaner this year and given her small size that could make a big difference. Regardless though she is storming and I hope she gets her win.


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

EndoAgain said:


> Regarding Emily I can't say anything about her training but she looks five pounds lighter this year. Didn't know about her "new" training but remarked to a friend two races ago she looked leaner this year and given her small size that could make a big difference. Regardless though she is storming and I hope she gets her win.


I hadn't noticed until reading this and seeing one of her instagram stories...and now I totally see it. Yes, definitely leaner. Really want her to get a W. She's worked super hard and her generally positive attitude through last season has been impressive to watch.

Love watching the women more than the men to be quite honest. Better personalities.


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## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

Comeback today from Jenny Rissveds today, she did start the Nationals and took the win in her first race. 

Hopefully she take the time for the comeback and don’t rush into it.


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## frank6262 (Oct 9, 2006)

tech question... 

when Emilys chain derailed...on a Narrow Wide single front ring.. does she HAVE to put the wide link on the wide tooth and vice versa? ( im still riding 2X10


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

frank6262 said:


> tech question...
> 
> when Emilys chain derailed...on a Narrow Wide single front ring.. does she HAVE to put the wide link on the wide tooth and vice versa? ( im still riding 2X10


Yep. Otherwise it won't mesh.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

MVdP: 2018 national CX, road and MTB champ.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Damn that kid is good


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## frank6262 (Oct 9, 2006)

newbie question.

in Andorra ...when Kerschbaumer on lap 5 .. on that certain climb... how can he know he just put a decent gap btw himself and Nino?

then again on lap 6 but this time a bigger gap... then on to lap 7, 8 to win the race.

how does an offroad racer know.. thru the trees and singletrack.. that his effort was successful... just got him so many bike lengths ahead?
(he cant look in the rearview mirror!)

how does he make the decision on just how hard to continue to push if he isnt sure his anaerobic effort dropped 2nd place....and isnt right there on his wheel?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

He checks on the climb or any area he can. 

Maybe I’m not understanding your question, but it seems pretty straightforward to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## exodus1500 (Jun 5, 2010)

frank6262 said:


> newbie question.
> 
> in Andorra ...when Kerschbaumer on lap 5 .. on that certain climb... how can he know he just put a decent gap btw himself and Nino?
> 
> ...


Ummmmm, peaks back real quick? You can glance behind your shoulder pretty easily and with minimal actual head turning especially on a climb. Also switchbacks.


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## XCKiwi (Jan 26, 2010)

Not only can he look back, there is an audible difference when someone is falling back. He will also be getting time checks at various places around the course.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I also think that he was going full gas. I am sure he checked when he could but he probably couldn't have sped up much if any. 

If you have it and got a lead, best to time trial it to the end particularly when you got Shirter behind you!

Shirter can play a lot of games with the other riders because he is so strong and can usually pounce at the end but if any other rider is having a good day it is best to just go for it.

Even the best can't hide the fact that someone is clearly on a better day than them.
Shirter is amazing that he can stay so consistent over the course of a whole season. Most riders are lucky if they have one or two good races. Gerhard may have had his two best races of the year and fall off the pace. I think people want to peak for the last few races and the worlds.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

I have two absolutely critical questions:
Anyone give a heads up on when the European Championships are?

Can anyone beat el Nino at le Mont?

Merci!


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## frank6262 (Oct 9, 2006)

madfella said:


> I have two absolutely critical questions:
> Anyone give a heads up on when the European Championships are?
> 
> Can anyone beat el Nino at le Mont?
> ...


 wonder if we can watch this online after?

https://www.glasgow2018.com/tickets?sport=cycling&discipline=cycling mountain biking

Tuesday August 7th


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## malayneum (Mar 7, 2018)

in this season it seems everybody is on full suspension. is hardtail reaching its death ?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

malayneum said:


> in this season it seems everybody is on full suspension. is hardtail reaching its death ?


For the men it seems to be the case but it still seems most of the women are on hard tails however many of them are using droppers.

I guess with twin lock outs and lighter weight full suspension bikes don't have the disadvantages in racing that they used to. Plus courses are getting more techy.

I remember back in the day when proflex first came out and they hired the top male pro to ride their bikes. His results that year were not good!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

It looks like the European mtb championships are this Tuesday. With the next world cup race starting Friday in Canada I wonder how many racers will be doing both? I couldn't find a start list for the European Championships.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

http://www.uec.ch/en/event/60/2018-uec-mtb-elite-european-championships

There is a link to entry list. Top women are there, but only few men.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

This topic came up in another thread,

But I just read for the first time ever that viewer ship numbers for XCO on Redbull TV are higher then those for DH. Awesome to see the growth in XC racing.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

LMN said:


> This topic came up in another thread,
> 
> But I just read for the first time ever that viewer ship numbers for XCO on Redbull TV are higher then those for DH. Awesome to see the growth in XC racing.


Very cool news. There seems to be a growing energy surrounding the discipline that hopefully bleeds over into the states.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Hmmm, Kiwi's battling at the top and viewer numbers up.

Coincidence? I think not!


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

LMN said:


> This topic came up in another thread,
> 
> But I just read for the first time ever that viewer ship numbers for XCO on Redbull TV are higher then those for DH. Awesome to see the growth in XC racing.


Will you and Katherine be at MSA? How is the healing going? Wouldn't be the same without you two...


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

tewks13 said:


> I like your picks. Here are mine:
> 
> 1. Yana Belomoina
> 2. Jolanda Neff
> ...


Come on!!! Where are everybody's picks for this weekend?!!! Weather is looking good if it holds...


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

To increase viewership in DH again they need to add Bart to the DH commentary crew, as the bimps and tree roots are even bigger on the DH courses. 

There's no doubt that the XCO courses have become very Red Bull TV friendly and the racing is so close now that there is no forgone conclusion about who's going to win. F1 racing would kill or maim to have competition this close.

I would imagine that at courses where there is good wifi, a lot of people who are watching it live will be tuned in to Red Bull to see what happens around the rest of the course.

It looks the La Perdrix trail section on the east end of the MSA course has returned this year.



LMN said:


> This topic came up in another thread,
> 
> But I just read for the first time ever that viewer ship numbers for XCO on Redbull TV are higher then those for DH. Awesome to see the growth in XC racing.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tewks13 said:


> Will you and Katherine be at MSA? How is the healing going? Wouldn't be the same without you two...


Yep.

Catharine's arm has healed well. She has done a lot of mountain biking in the past week. She isn't quite descending at full speed but fast enough and confident enough to be racing.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

LMN said:


> Yep.
> 
> Catharine's arm has healed well. She has done a lot of mountain biking in the past week. She isn't quite descending at full speed but fast enough and confident enough to be racing.


That's great news! X-ray looked like a terrible break.. You two are such great ambassadors for the sport...
Now, who are your picks for this week - you are always very good at this!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tewks13 said:


> That's great news! X-ray looked like a terrible break.. You two are such great ambassadors for the sport...
> Now, who are your picks for this week - you are always very good at this!


Hmm, picks

Women:
1. Batty
2. Neff
3. Maja
4. Pauline
5. Catharine

Men
1. Nino
2. Avancini
3. Kerschbaumer
4. Marotte
5. Titouane


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

LMN said:


> Hmm, picks
> 
> Women:
> 1. Batty
> ...


Good choices. Wasn't sure if emily could maintain her peak....(never has before - new territory)
Hope Tempier has a good race. He's a trip!!! Great attitude!

Travel safe!


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

LMN said:


> Hmm, picks
> 
> Women:
> 1. Batty
> ...


Definitely rooting for Batty for the win on home soil, she was motoring the last race!

No Van Der Poel? I keep thinking hes gonna pull one off and this may be the one.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Jolanda, Maja, Pauline and Mathieu will start in European Championships tomorrow. They probably wont fully recover for the weekend.


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## jet9rdopilot (Nov 10, 2012)

Having attended many world cup and world championships I feel Pauline and Batty are dirty racers. I have seen both throw elbows at riders. Pauline taking out Jolanda in the cx race. What about Batty dropping a chain and causing another racer to crash into her. Both get excuses because they are cute.
Allot goes on in the pack that is never shown on TV. Euros are partially known to cheat. Hiding bikes in the woods, assisting riders up hills, drugs.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

jet9rdopilot said:


> Having attended many world cup and world championships I feel Pauline and Batty are dirty racers. I have seen both throw elbows at riders. Pauline taking out Jolanda in the cx race. What about Batty dropping a chain and causing another racer to crash into her. Both get excuses because they are cute.
> Allot goes on in the pack that is never shown on TV. Euros are partially known to cheat. Hiding bikes in the woods, assisting riders up hills, drugs.


Having watched that CX race, and that WC XCO race, I couldn't disagree with you more.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

jet9rdopilot said:


> Having attended many world cup and world championships I feel Pauline and Batty are dirty racers. I have seen both throw elbows at riders. Pauline taking out Jolanda in the cx race. What about Batty dropping a chain and causing another racer to crash into her. Both get excuses because they are cute.
> Allot goes on in the pack that is never shown on TV. Euros are partially known to cheat. Hiding bikes in the woods, assisting riders up hills, drugs.


Pauline and Emily race and fight for every position, that is what racers do.

The two incidents that you are referring to, are racing incidences that no one was to blame for. Crashes and mechanicals happen, sometimes those problems unfortunately collect other people.

I find it pretty sad that when these incidents happen in the mens field people say "that is racing". But when a pretty girl is involved people call them "dirty racers".


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Wow! Ya those Euros really know how to cheat, but just to be inclusive the pretty ones Euro or not can really get away with things!
Now Pauline and Joelanda are both pretty so I guess it is a wash if they both take each other out!
Got pictures of the bikes being hidden in the woods and can you tell us with certainty who and who does not dope??


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

joeduda said:


> Definitely rooting for Batty for the win on home soil, she was motoring the last race!
> 
> No Van Der Poel? I keep thinking hes gonna pull one off and this may be the one.


VDP is staying on to race Euro roads so is not racing.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

jet9rdopilot said:


> Having attended many world cup and world championships I feel Pauline and Batty are dirty racers. I have seen both throw elbows at riders. Pauline taking out Jolanda in the cx race. What about Batty dropping a chain and causing another racer to crash into her. Both get excuses because they are cute.
> Allot goes on in the pack that is never shown on TV. Euros are partially known to cheat. Hiding bikes in the woods, assisting riders up hills, drugs.


By your standards the entire field are dirty racers.


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

TDLover said:


> By your standards the entire field are dirty racers.


LOL! If being good looking makes the women cheaters i would say yes, every one of them i have seen is a big ol cheater!


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

LMN said:


> I find it pretty sad that when these incidents happen in the mens field people say "that is racing". But when a pretty girl is involved people call them "dirty racers".


Perfectly said! Well done!


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## mv70 (Feb 15, 2018)

jet9rdopilot said:


> never shown on TV. Euros are partially known to cheat. Hiding bikes in the woods, assisting riders up hills, drugs.


Interesting tell me more. I did not know but only watch redbulltv.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

insidertrading said:


> VDP is staying on to race Euro roads so is not racing.


Darn it! I was looking forward to seeing his technical skills at MSA first hand... So much for that....


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## frank6262 (Oct 9, 2006)

LMN said:


> Hmm, picks
> 
> Women:
> 1. Batty
> ...


 what about Lars Forster ! 2018 European XC Champion!


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## jet9rdopilot (Nov 10, 2012)

Do we throw sportsmanship out the window in the name of winning? You go girl Gunn- Rita is a example. Check you history, Frischi never won a World Championship until a doper got caught Jerome Chittoi in 1996 in Carins, Aust, was there. Bikes hide in the woods Lucca, ITA. Mtn Ste Anne, CAN 1998. This is when races were 3 hrs and you could get away with it. Now you can not, since races are shorter, but more intense. Americans dominated in the early years because most races were in the US at altitude. You complained, got your way, now your dominating WC all in the name of tv. I believe Bart was one of them. Vail 8,022, Andorra 6,549. Altitude come on. I live in Indiana an rode up to 12,000 ft plus at the 2001 9/11 Worlds in Vail. Maybe Jenny sat out a period because she was about to get caught?


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Anyway... need it to be Friday for some Short Track airtime.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

jet9rdopilot said:


> Do we throw sportsmanship out the window in the name of winning? You go girl Gunn- Rita is a example. Check you history, Frischi never won a World Championship until a doper got caught Jerome Chittoi in 1996 in Carins, Aust, was there. Bikes hide in the woods Lucca, ITA. Mtn Ste Anne, CAN 1998. This is when races were 3 hrs and you could get away with it. Now you can not, since races are shorter, but more intense. Americans dominated in the early years because most races were in the US at altitude. You complained, got your way, now your dominating WC all in the name of tv. I believe Bart was one of them. Vail 8,022, Andorra 6,549. Altitude come on. I live in Indiana an rode up to 12,000 ft plus at the 2001 9/11 Worlds in Vail. Maybe Jenny sat out a period because she was about to get caught?


You've got a lot of speculation going on there. Don't drag Jenny's character through your unfounded negativity. It's not fair to her and it's not a good example to set for others.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

jet9rdopilot said:


> Do we throw sportsmanship out the window in the name of winning? You go girl Gunn- Rita is a example. Check you history, Frischi never won a World Championship until a doper got caught Jerome Chittoi in 1996 in Carins, Aust, was there. Bikes hide in the woods Lucca, ITA. Mtn Ste Anne, CAN 1998. This is when races were 3 hrs and you could get away with it. Now you can not, since races are shorter, but more intense. Americans dominated in the early years because most races were in the US at altitude. You complained, got your way, now your dominating WC all in the name of tv. I believe Bart was one of them. Vail 8,022, Andorra 6,549. Altitude come on. I live in Indiana an rode up to 12,000 ft plus at the 2001 9/11 Worlds in Vail. Maybe Jenny sat out a period because she was about to get caught?


If you actually made cohesive points that people could understand, maybe people would take you seriously...as it is you sound like a raving looney who lost the plot.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Any bets for short track?

Also, does anyone know how the short track will be in MSA?

Last short track was a bit differerent than the others and personally preferred it to the first ones where it was just a massive sprint finish. 


Without knowing the short track is hard to bet on someone, but I actually think Nino will try to go for the win this time, for both wins. 

With both wins I believe he would be very close to seal off WC championship.


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## BeDrinkable (Sep 22, 2008)

I shouldn't really respond, but how in the world would hiding a bike in the woods help you?

Otherwise, I am looking forward to the weekend! This is always one of my favorite courses, both DH and XC. I would like to see Emily finally take one on home soil.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

jet9rdopilot said:


> Do we throw sportsmanship out the window in the name of winning? You go girl Gunn- Rita is a example. Check you history, Frischi never won a World Championship until a doper got caught Jerome Chittoi in 1996 in Carins, Aust, was there. Bikes hide in the woods Lucca, ITA. Mtn Ste Anne, CAN 1998. This is when races were 3 hrs and you could get away with it. Now you can not, since races are shorter, but more intense. Americans dominated in the early years because most races were in the US at altitude. You complained, got your way, now your dominating WC all in the name of tv. I believe Bart was one of them. Vail 8,022, Andorra 6,549. Altitude come on. I live in Indiana an rode up to 12,000 ft plus at the 2001 9/11 Worlds in Vail. Maybe Jenny sat out a period because she was about to get caught?


Also, using 20 year old anecdotes?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

TDLover said:


> Any bets for short track?
> 
> Also, does anyone know how the short track will be in MSA?
> 
> ...


I am not 100% sure what the short track loops is but I think it will be the start loop for the XC race.

If it is it will be a good course. Fairly significant climb (1 minute low to high point) no bottle necks, limited technically. I think the biggest engine will win.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Just came across this article about Emily on the CBC Sports website

Mountain biker Emily Batty 'still healing' from post-Olympics depression | CBC Sports

"I've learned so much, I'm an athlete but I'm more human than I think people realize, going through a severe depression actually, quite dark for awhile," she said. "I almost get emotional talking about it. I am still healing."

The broken collarbone was a shock for an athlete who was born and raised on a cattle farm and was "anything but a fragile girl."

"That is now six years later and I'm still pretty emotionally wrapped up in that one because it was so traumatizing for me," she said.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

*XCC*
Women
1 Keller
2 WLOSZCZOWSKA
3 Batty

Men
1 Gaze 
2 Nino
3 FORSTER

*XCO*
Women
1 Batty
2 Langvad
3 WLOSZCZOWSKA
4 Neff
5 Keller
6 Courtney
7 PENDREL Catharine 
8 SMITH Haley

Men
1 Nino
2 AVANCINI Henrique 
3 MAROTTE Maxime 
4 KERSCHBAUMER Gerhard
5 FLUECKIGER Mathias 
6 Forster
7 SARROU Jordan


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

As a Canadian homer I'm hoping for Batty's first win, a podium for Catharine coming off the injury and a top 10 for Sandra Walter. I got the opportunity to ride with Catharine and Sandra last year in Fernie and they are both just awesome down to earth people who love riding. Once you meet them I'm not sure it's possible not to be a big (or bigger) fan. 

Has the course changed much from previous years?


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## BeDrinkable (Sep 22, 2008)

scottg said:


> I got the opportunity to ride with Catharine and Sandra last year in Fernie and they are both just awesome down to earth people who love riding. Once you meet them I'm not sure it's possible not to be a big (or bigger) fan.


That's awesome! I've had that experience as well. A few years ago the National Champs were with 3 hours of my town, so I went and got a chance to say hi to Georgia Gould and a couple others. I came away a bigger fan than before, if it was possible.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

They moved start/finish up to the service road where the service stop was previously, and have brought La Perdrix back on the east end of the course.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

scottg said:


> As a Canadian homer I'm hoping for Batty's first win, a podium for Catharine coming off the injury and a top 10 for Sandra Walter. I got the opportunity to ride with Catharine and Sandra last year in Fernie and they are both just awesome down to earth people who love riding. Once you meet them I'm not sure it's possible not to be a big (or bigger) fan.
> 
> Has the course changed much from previous years?


We rode together that weekend?

Everybody still talks about that ride, your guys DHs are incredible. Although the climb to the top of Big Money is the most hideous climb I have ever ridden.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

What time is today’s event?


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

LMN said:


> Although the climb to the top of Big Money is the most hideous climb I have ever ridden.


it's more fun if you think of it as a long trials section and the goal is not to put a foot down rather than how fast you go


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

zgxtreme said:


> What time is today's event?


Well, that depends where you live.

Under 2 hours from now (no matter where you live).


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

kevbikemad said:


> Well, that depends where you live.
> 
> Under 2 hours from now (no matter where you live).


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Well, the women short track was just plain boring, I don't think it had 1 technical feature.

I'm gonna have to side with pinkbike commenters on this one, although I don't think this is "XCC".


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

TDLover said:


> Well, the women short track was just plain boring, I don't think it had 1 technical feature.


Agreed, grass crit racing basically.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Non technical, but safe.

Good one Sam and Anton


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Yeah, that course was lame as. The first couple of rounds were pretty ho hum, the last round was great, like really really good, this one, nope.
I mean if you're going to make XCC these types of courses, to get more racing on, then scrap them and just go back to 3 hour races.


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## Ketzal (Oct 30, 2016)

What do we have to do to end these incredibly boring short track courses? I'm embarrassed for the competitors. This is not what the pinnacle of the sport should look like. There are many alternative methods of changing the start order, if that's the UCIs intention? Forcing the racers to repeatedly ride around a glorified grass circle doesn't seem like the best option... Personally, I feel that short track is simply not worth the effort. Spend the extra money on assisting the venues. Build the best XC courses and invest in dramatically better TV coverage. For example, give us real-time on board footage during the race. Better coverage will grow the audience faster than using the athletes to draw crop circles...


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

Ketzal said:


> What do we have to do to end these incredibly boring short track courses? I'm embarrassed for the competitors. This is not what the pinnacle of the sport should look like. There are many alternative methods of changing the start order, if that's the UCIs intention? Forcing the racers to repeatedly ride around a glorified grass circle doesn't seem like the best option... Personally, I feel that short track is simply not worth the effort. Spend the extra money on assisting the venues. Build the best XC courses and invest in dramatically better TV coverage. For example, give us real-time on board footage during the race. Better coverage will grow the audience faster than using the athletes to draw crop circles...


Last night's track may have looked boring/simple but I think the riders would have found it one of the toughest physically. From a riders perspective the variety of XCC tracks are allowing different aspects of their skills to be tested. The first couple, racing tactics, the second few, bike handling and the latest, fitness. First year is always going to be the toughest for the course developers. Huge amounts of volunteer hours go in to hosting an event and building the courses. With support I don't doubt each year the XCC course will get better.


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

LMN said:


> We rode together that weekend?
> 
> Everybody still talks about that ride, your guys DHs are incredible. Although the climb to the top of Big Money is the most hideous climb I have ever ridden.


Yeah I rode with you guys on the Project 9/Eric's Trip ride. The Big Money climb is truly heinous although Claude, who also rode with us, does Big Money once a week because he loves suffering. It's only made worse now, because it's so dry.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

insidertrading said:


> Last night's track may have looked boring/simple but I think the riders would have found it one of the toughest physically. From a riders perspective the variety of XCC tracks are allowing different aspects of their skills to be tested. The first couple, racing tactics, the second few, bike handling and the latest, fitness. First year is always going to be the toughest for the course developers. Huge amounts of volunteer hours go in to hosting an event and building the courses. With support I don't doubt each year the XCC course will get better.


I really hope the courses get better if it is back next year. I prefer courses that have some actual trails. Send them through a long uphill rocky section, make it wide so there are two or three line options, find out who can actually ride. These races are basically just coming down to who creates the most 30 second power/watts after 20 minutes.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

TDLover said:


> Well, the women short track was just plain boring, I don't think it had 1 technical feature.
> 
> I'm gonna have to side with pinkbike commenters on this one, although I don't think this is "XCC".


It is interesting how the TV audience and the live spectators have completely opposite opinions of the race and race course.

Live it looked really good. The speeds they were coming up a significant incline were mind blowing. In the high speed grass corners you could watch the rides with technical skills open and close significant gaps.

When I watched the replay the course looked flat and the racing looked slow. I thought "is this the same race I just saw live?"


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Catharine's lap of MSA
www.redbull.tv/video/AP-1W6D9T5VH2111/track-talk-with-ric-and-catharine


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

Sadly Sam is out of the xco race on Sunday. Injury to wrist and foot. Lets hope he heals in time for the champs, as his form was top notch coming into MSA.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

insidertrading said:


> Sadly Sam is out of the xco race on Sunday. Injury to wrist and foot. Lets hope he heals in time for the champs, as his form was top notch coming into MSA.


What happened? Did he have a crash during practice or something of that sort?


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

TDLover said:


> What happened? Did he have a crash during practice or something of that sort?


Yep. Training crash on course. Considering the crash he was lucky to get away with what he did. Back home to NZ to recover and get in shape for the Champs.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

LMN said:


> Catharine's lap of MSA
> www.redbull.tv/video/AP-1W6D9T5VH2111/track-talk-with-ric-and-catharine


Ouch!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Ouch, ouch.
He unclipped nicely, but forgot Kiwi's can't fly...


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Ouch, big guys have more kinetic energy on impact too.


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## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

LMN said:


> Catharine's lap of MSA
> www.redbull.tv/video/AP-1W6D9T5VH2111/track-talk-with-ric-and-catharine


Catharine is a riot. She explained the course well.

That does not look easy at 180bpm on race day 

Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk


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## jet9rdopilot (Nov 10, 2012)

Glade to see they are going to use parts of the old course farther east of the start area. LMN I know your connect with Catherine, who I like. When a accident happens on the hwy and you are going to work/home, traffic backed up for hours, do you say that is life? No you curse the sob who caused the accident. 
Bikes hidden in woods, why do you think they now have tech zones? Look at the history of world cup racing and the rule changes. Early Grundig years to now. Larry Hibbard used a stick to finish a race when his handle bar broke. Cindy Whitehead riding and winning with a broke seat post.
Gunn-Rita, Catherine,and the more senior riders use race smarts to win instead of elbows and taking out your opposition.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

I gotta say I've never been a fan of how Neff descends, but today she made it extremely evident how superior she is descending against her competition. She pulled off a Nino, dominating the race at her will. 

Langvad did some damage control for the world title, because she kept making mistakes, still Batty was unable to caught her. Nonetheless, a great race by Batty, this will be her best season so far. 

Now, lets wait and see how men's race pan out.


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

When Neff is on form like that I don't think anyone else can touch her. I was hoping she'd have some fatigue from the Euro champs as I was hoping for Emily to have a chance at her first win. Sandra Walter had a DNF, I was pulling for her to get a personal best result - hopefully just a mechanical, and not a crash/injury. I think 8th is a World Cup PB for Haley Smith, and it's awesome she did it in Canada.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Luke Vrouwenvelder in 31st today! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

tewks13 said:


> I like your picks. Here are mine:
> 
> 1. Yana Belomoina
> 2. Jolanda Neff
> ...


I think I did pretty good on the MSA lady's picks. Completely missed the men's....(Tempier flatted, Shurter mechanical, VDP didn't show up, Bart practiced with Tauber, but didn't race 🤷*♂) 😎


----------



## wheelzqc (Aug 31, 2016)

I watched the races live from women u23 women to pro men. This course was gnarly! Patriote and that unnamed little rooty/rocky descent after crossing a small creak was something.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

From Facebook...


Anton Cooper said:


> Don't ever say I don't entertain you! 🤔 Obviously heartbroken to not quite be able to pull it off but I also have to say I'm really happy for my old team mate Mathias to get a World Cup win! Super well deserved. I'm confident my time in the sun will come, until then it's back to the grind. Pleased to report that while I'm a bit battered and sore overall my body is in one piece...mostly. I just got a little close to Mathias as he set up for the inside line before Beatrice which kind of threw of my setup, I stalled a bit at the top with my bike too sideways on the approach and the rest is history! I took a risk with the hardtail today and it very nearly paid off. While a lot slower in some sections and more energy sapping I had a good trade off elsewhere. I'd also like to thank the Kiwi legend Buck Shelford for the inspiration to make it to the finish line with some torn manhood, nothing a few stitches couldn't fix! No photos of that sorry 😂I'll be back and hungrier than ever! 😤 A rough weekend also for my fellow Kiwi Sam Gaze who binned it in practice and had to sit the race out so spare a thought for him too. I'm sure it could have been a couple of Kiwi's on the podium if things had been a little different.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Anton crash was unfortunate, but at least he got up and ended up in a descent position after that. That bike was really spring, it bounced quite high, I thought it was over for him at that point. 


Kirschbaumer crash was also nasty, I was surprised how he got up and kept his rhythm right away. He was definitely going for the win, perhaps second for sure.

Nino, the same, seemed to me that without technicals he would be fighting against kirschbaumer for the win.

Fluckiger has been very close before, but this time he managed to ride without mistakes (anyone remember that double jump?) and that was enough, well deserved win.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Did anyone see the motorbike on the race track in front of the leaders during lap 3?

I'm unaware of the policies or reason for motorbikes to be on the track, but that seems like dangerous and unwise thing to do.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

TDLover said:


> Did anyone see the motorbike on the race track in front of the leaders during lap 3?
> 
> I'm unaware of the policies or reason for motorbikes to be on the track, but that seems like dangerous and unwise thing to do.


There has always been motor bikes on track. There is a lead moto and there is a follow moto.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

LMN said:


> There has always been motor bikes on track. There is a lead moto and there is a follow moto.


Ok, gotta admit I'm lost here.

During the entire race there is a leading moto for every lap? Do they do the entire track or just the finish section? What's the purpose?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

TDLover said:


> Ok, gotta admit I'm lost here.
> 
> During the entire race there is a leading moto for every lap? Do they do the entire track or just the finish section? What's the purpose?


Lead moto for XCO, also follow moto for XCM/XCP.

4.3.2.7. XC: briefing the lead and sweep bike riders
The lead and sweep bikes (motos) are an important part
of XCO races. The main purpose of the lead bike is to mark
the front of the race. This indicates to the spectators, Commissaires
and the timing service provider that the race leaders
will arrive shortly. The lead bike often carries a sign on
the motorcycle (sometimes also on his/her back) to indicate
the number of laps remaining, so that the spectators
along the course and the team staff in the F/TA zones know
how much longer the race will last.

Similarly, the sweep bike is used to mark the back of the
field of riders that are still considered to be competing in the
race. This is almost always the last-placed rider. The sweep
bike is mainly used in XCM and XCP races (or stages of XCS
events) rather than XCO events, except to close the course
after the last rider once the winner has finished.
Since the moto riders may not have experience of mountain
bike races, it is very important to issue specific instructions,
so that they can do their jobs without interfering with the
race. The PCP is responsible for ensuring that the moto riders
have been given instructions.
If the PCP is not confident that the moto riders can follow
the instructions properly, then it is better to not use the motorcycles.
Furthermore, if the moto riders are not following
instructions and their behaviour cannot be corrected, then
they should be withdrawn from the race.


----------



## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

I always thought they used it to make sure the track was clear and let the specators know the field was about to come through.

Was it Vail in like 94 when the moto crashed on the bailys drop or something? (dunno dim mists of time)..


Maybe that's a place for an ... ebike... haha


----------



## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Luke Vrouwenvelder in 31st today!


Luke is having a terrific season; hope he keeps at it as he will only get faster.


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

In 2008, one of the Euro WC races had a electric lead moto with the rider in a gorilla suit


----------



## CptSydor (Sep 20, 2007)

TDLover said:


> Ok, gotta admit I'm lost here.
> 
> During the entire race there is a leading moto for every lap? Do they do the entire track or just the finish section? What's the purpose?


They do the entire track. They are typically pretty solid trials riders (at least what I've seen at MSA). They switch it up every lap, not sure how many total riders they have, but different ones come through. Some are better than others (A vs B lines), but they don't go nearly as fast down the technical descents as the riders.

Guessing the rider yesterday had a little issue and the lead riders caught them on the long DH into the finish.


----------



## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

When they had the replacement World Cup in St.Felicien in 2007, the lead moto was really enjoying the course, popping off of steep bits in the climbs, holding wheelies as long as possible, and generally taking advantage of the only opportunity to ride a trials moto on MTB trails.

Usually the lead moto gets to the start/finish line soon enough to change the lap number on the front of the bike before they set out for the next lap, they are usually about a half kilometre ahead of the lead riders.

I dug back through the pics I've taken at MSA over the years, I found a shot of the lead moto finishing the descent on La Beatrice (apparently on lap 4) from the World Champs 2010.


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

mik_git said:


> I always thought they used it to make sure the track was clear and let the specators know the field was about to come through.


Yeah I always assumed the same.

At BCBR they had a bunch of Motos too. I thought it was super cool actually.

The women's races are usually better, but Neff seemed to just be running away with it. I was hoping Batty could get a win for the reasons you guys listed above.

The men's race this time was the best to watch in my opinion. Really close race for the win--that crash of Anton's was crazy!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

J-Flo said:


> Luke is having a terrific season; hope he keeps at it as he will only get faster.


If he's been able to contest the previous two WCs he'd have a good shot at a decent overall finish.

Silly cars.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## exodus1500 (Jun 5, 2010)

I was hoping for a close finish until Anton crashed. I think he was playing with fire with that negative stem and hard tail. A lot less margin for error when he got tired.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Le Duke said:


> Luke Vrouwenvelder in 31st today!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We both have been lucky to race with him... in my case, from when he was 14 or so. He has a very high ceiling. Good kid as well.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

exodus1500 said:


> I was hoping for a close finish until Anton crashed. I think he was playing with fire with that negative stem and hard tail. A lot less margin for error when he got tired.


That -ve stem is still quite a high bar.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Ouch.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12106300

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Ouch.
> 
> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12106300
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Read that article then Google 'Buck Shelford'. Sheesh.


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## KonaSS (Sep 29, 2004)

Finally got some time to watch the MSA race. I couple of thoughts purely for discussion here. 

Would Cooper have been better off with a full sus bike? He seemed to lose time after every downhill. 

What the hell happened to Kulhavy? It seemed he DNFed a couple of minutes in, but didn't catch what happened. Speaking of - what the hell happened to Kulhavy's results?

Nino was doing well, but it appears to me that the other racers are no longer afraid to attack him and take him on. Seems like mentally there has been a shift in other racers this year, he is beatable.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

KonaSS said:


> Nino was doing well, but it appears to me that the other racers are no longer afraid to attack him and take him on. Seems like mentally there has been a shift in other racers this year, he is beatable.


I watched the race on Redbull.TV and agree that the other racers aren't afraid to go elbow to elbow with Nino fighting for position. As a result, the men's race is more exciting to watch now IMO.


----------



## jmal (Jul 16, 2009)

What do you think of all the broken chains recently in both XC and DH? Perhaps I was just not as aware of them in the past, but there seems to be an uptick in them recently. If so, what's the cause? 1x systems putting too much lateral strain on the chains?


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

1x and skinny 12spd chains?


----------



## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

KonaSS said:


> Finally got some time to watch the MSA race. I couple of thoughts purely for discussion here.
> 
> What the hell happened to Kulhavy? It seemed he DNFed a couple of minutes in, but didn't catch what happened. Speaking of - what the hell happened to Kulhavy's results?
> 
> ...


----------



## exodus1500 (Jun 5, 2010)

jmal said:


> What do you think of all the broken chains recently in both XC and DH? Perhaps I was just not as aware of them in the past, but there seems to be an uptick in them recently. If so, what's the cause? 1x systems putting too much lateral strain on the chains?


I was actually thinking recently about how it seemed like there were less flats and mechanicals this season than last. I dont suppose there is any kind of data about that is there?


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## 7daysaweek (May 7, 2008)

tommyrod74 said:


> We both have been lucky to race with him... in my case, from when he was 14 or so. He has a very high ceiling. Good kid as well.


He is a nice guy. I warmed up "with" him for a few seconds at a race once, then I was cooked. He passed me later in the race about 10 minutes off the front of the Cat1s and chatted for a few seconds before disappearing off into the woods. So smooth.

Hope he keeps it up and does well. Fun to see a local guy killing it.


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## jmal (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm sure teams keep data, but I certainly don't have any. I do feel like I have seen a lot more broken chains though. They used to be almost unheard of, and were usually the result of poor installation or very, very poor maintenance. Now we see them regularly on bikes maintained by the best mechanics in the world.


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## XCKiwi (Jan 26, 2010)

Re the motos, I remember a couple of years ago at MSA Catharine fond herself in front of one. I presume they were using lead only, but somehow she was in front of one on camera and we thought it was the funniest thing: 'omg she's going so fast she's passed the lead moto!).

Re chains, when 11spd first came out it seemed like everyone using them was breaking them.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

So Mathieu VdP was runner up in last week's European Road race championships and today won stage 1 of Norway Arctic road race. I recall that his justification for aiming for MTB Olympics was that the Dutch road racing scene is very deep and established and unlikely to accommodate a neopro. And I agree with that logic. But look at how freaking good this kid is at anything bicycle race related! I wonder if he'll reconsider his Olympic goals? I believe he may have made statements about that actually.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Sam Gaze out for the championships.


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## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

ewarnerusa said:


> But look at how freaking good this kid is at anything bicycle race related! I wonder if he'll reconsider his Olympic goals?


The Olympic course in Japan does not suit him, otherwise I would agree.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

MattMay said:


> Sam Gaze out for the championships.


He is gutted about it, but some late season mtb stage racing still on the cards this year, and road racing over the NZ summer.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

euro-trash said:


> The Olympic course in Japan does not suit him, otherwise I would agree.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Is the course built? Any info on it?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

kevbikemad said:


> Is the course built? Any info on it?


I think he's referring to the road course. Which makes Rio look like a flat Belgian kermesse.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

It's a shame there will be no 2019 World Cup round in stellies. I wonder if there is enough time for another Southern hemisphere venue to take on the early March slot or if they will just scrap that round altogether.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

insidertrading said:


> It's a shame there will be no 2019 World Cup round in stellies. I wonder if there is enough time for another Southern hemisphere venue to take on the early March slot or if they will just scrap that round altogether.


What... how come? That has been my favorite WC this year.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

TDLover said:


> What... how come? That has been my favorite WC this year.


Finding the big sponsors mostly. Usual reason for most team/ events ending in cycling sadly. But the organisers plan to have the round back for 20/21


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Ouch...


Sam Gaze Instagram said:


> Devastated to announce I won't be riding the World Championships on the 8th of September. After further scans yesterday it has shown a fracture in my wrist which could get nasty if I try push through for the race. I'd like to thank my team and all my supporters through this time, they have been incredible.


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## pastronef (Aug 20, 2018)

anyone knows for how many seasons has Anton Cooper signed with Trek Racing? thanks.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

pastronef said:


> anyone knows for how many seasons has Anton Cooper signed with Trek Racing? thanks.


Nobody other them himself and Trek likely to know that.

However, the industry normal is 2 year contracts. Most riders are looking to renew with their current or change teams this year.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Any idea if all the major players are racing La Bresse??

I understand Gaze is out of action.


----------



## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

^ http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/News/18/70/71/20180821_LABR_EntryLists_Neutral.PDF


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

ccm said:


> ^ http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/News/18/70/71/20180821_LABR_EntryLists_Neutral.PDF


Thanks,

Here are the standings now: https://www.redbull.com/us-en/event...rica/uci-mtb-world-cup-2018-overall-standings

It looks like Shirter's lead is out of reach going into the final race of the season. Gerhard could jump a bunch of places. He is killing it that last part of the season.
MVDP has had a busy road race schedule so who knows about his form?

For the Women it looks like Annika could close the gap and win the title overall. 
Kate Courtney is in 8th and surprisingly ahead of Gunn Rita


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

Schurter clinched his World Cup Title at the last race, MSA. I'm rooting for Neff to keep her lead and title.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

joeduda said:


> Schurter clinched his World Cup Title at the last race, MSA. I'm rooting for Neff to keep her lead and title.


I am sort of rooting for Annika cause she hasn't won it yet.
Neff is amazing though.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Last short track of the season live now.

Scratch that... my App is jacked up.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Very good racing today.

Annika is the MVDP of short track but has had better results in XC. Can she take the win on Sunday?
JOelanda seemed the most bummed I have seen her this year. She said that the short track format doesn't suit her.

MVDP seems more geared for shorter races and higher intensity efforts. Smart race by him today hanging back until the end. I think his road racing experiences this year have helped him.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

richwolf said:


> Very good racing today.
> 
> Annika is the MVDP of short track but has had better results in XC. Can she take the win on Sunday?
> JOelanda seemed the most bummed I have seen her this year. She said that the short track format doesn't suit her.
> ...


The descents are fairly technical here. Jolanda was absolutely destroying them in training. If she gets out front the race will be over in a hurry.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Looking two weeks ahead, just like last year Red Bull doesn't appear to have the rights for streaming the World Champs (no event listing for World Champs on their website), that will be some national broadcasters (but none in Canada) so again, no chance to watch the World Champ races live.


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

LMN said:


> The descents are fairly technical here. Jolanda was absolutely destroying them in training. If she gets out front the race will be over in a hurry.


That's what I'm expecting to see. She just wrecks the tech, combined with a 97 point lead I like her for the overall. Courtney struggling to hang on 2nd half of today was a bit of a surprise to me.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

pinkpowa said:


> That's what I'm expecting to see. She just wrecks the tech, combined with a 97 point lead I like her for the overall. Courtney struggling to hang on 2nd half of today was a bit of a surprise to me.


I think some poker playing going on between Sunday's race and the world championships coming up in just 2 weeks. I think a lot of riders are looking ahead to that. 
Annika struggles more with the tech than Joelanda does.

Sunday picks

Joelanda
Annika
Prevot
Gunn Rita
Batty
Courtney

Avancini
Gerhard
Shirter
MVDP
Forster


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## markus_krk (Jul 27, 2013)

dickwolf said:


> Shirter


So hard to spell Schurter correctly just once?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

markus_krk said:


> So hard to spell Schurter correctly just once?


I will some day but to keep you in suspense I ain't sayin when!

And it is Dick Wolf! Can't you space properly? Jeeeeez.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

MVDP must have reinforced handlebars...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

pinkpowa said:


> That's what I'm expecting to see. She just wrecks the tech, combined with a 97 point lead I like her for the overall. Courtney struggling to hang on 2nd half of today was a bit of a surprise to me.


Kate was pushed into the fence and crashed on 2nd lap.

The two strongest rides of the day (other then those who finished on the podium) were by Erin Huck and Howard Grotts. They were the only riders who could ride through the field.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

First, let me get make it clear that Nino is still the best XCO racer on the planet...no doubt. But is he past his peak as an athlete? By that I mean will he ever be as strong/dominate as he was in 2016 and 2017? During that time, it seemed he just played with the other athletes and rode off with ease in the last lap or two. I believe most male cyclists usually reach their peak powers around age 30 and Nino is now 32.


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## wheelzqc (Aug 31, 2016)

Or is it the other ones reaching their peaks? Or a bit of both! He still (in MSA) looked the most comfortable in the technical section(and fastest). When his chain broke he was starting to rip the field a part.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Stonerider said:


> First, let me get make it clear that Nino is still the best XCO racer on the planet...no doubt. But is he past his peak as an athlete? By that I mean will he ever be as strong/dominate as he was in 2016 and 2017? During that time, it seemed he just played with the other athletes and rode off with ease in the last lap or two. I believe most male cyclists usually reach their peak powers around age 30 and Nino is now 32.


Has Nino slowed down or have others caught up?

I think in short track he is showing his age. A 24 year old Nino would be winning a couple of these, but a 24 year old Nino didn't win on courses with steep climbs.

Nino's length of time at the top has been incredible. From 2009 to 2018 he has been a top 3 rider, and vast majority of that time as the #1. 10 years at the top is a long time. Absalon was dominate 5 years, Gunn Rita was 5 years.


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

LMN said:


> Has Nino slowed down or have others caught up?
> 
> I think in short track he is showing his age.


This is very speculative, but I think the short track is messing Nino up a bit. Not so much on the physical side, but on the mental aspect. No other rider in the sport faces the pressure that Nino does, with the expectations on him to be the best, to be almost perfect, every race. He's shown his class over the years by delivering on those expectations with remarkable consistency. However, asking him to race twice for each WC weekend (even if he sometimes chooses to go less than 100% in the short track) must be a drain on him. Those drains from the short track might not make a big difference to other top riders whose results may fluctuate between 2nd and 10th every race, but I can only guess how it must be a factor in trying to hold that knife edge of an advantage versus the entire field. All riders suffer from the same draw on finite mental and physical resources, but no one else is in Nino's unique position with the expectations among fans (and maybe himself) to win every race. Adding the short track may then also have a unique effect on him that no one else faces.


----------



## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

There are only so many great races in the body and only so many times you can push yourself to the limit. 
Nino had the perfect season last year with lots of good luck. From the Olympics to the regular season to the world championships it was an incredible run.
Hopefully he has enough in him to take the overall win title but the young guns are coming!
I go back and forth on how I feel about the short track addition but it is obvious that most of the time the short track favors those with different body types than a standard cross country race.
I am thinking that if MVDP doesn't win one of the next two races he may scuttle his plans to race the olympics in mountain biking in favor of the road.


----------



## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> Has Nino slowed down or have others caught up?
> 
> I think in short track he is showing his age. A 24 year old Nino would be winning a couple of these, but a 24 year old Nino didn't win on courses with steep climbs.
> 
> Nino's length of time at the top has been incredible. From 2009 to 2018 he has been a top 3 rider, and vast majority of that time as the #1. 10 years at the top is a long time. Absalon was dominate 5 years, Gunn Rita was 5 years.


Absalon was world champ over a 10yr span, World Cup overall champ was a 13yr span...


----------



## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

Circlip said:


> This is very speculative, but I think the short track is messing Nino up a bit. Not so much on the physical side, but on the mental aspect.


That's very much possible. It also think that the additional race days mess up his preparation and planning, and that he only aim for a first row start, not a win.

During the European Championships, Schurter's trainer Nicolas Siegenthaler was commenting for the Swiss TV, and while explaining why he was not present, said that if Nino do 30 races in a season, he wins 5 or 6 of them; if he do only 15, he wins 12 of them.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

peabody said:


> Absalon was world champ over a 10yr span, World Cup overall champ was a 13yr span...


Yep, but his dominant years were 2004 to 2008 and 2014. That is when the vast majority of his wins occured.

Being at the top and winning World cups and world championships is different from being dominant. In the last 20 years there is only 4 riders would I would say were dominant for a season, Kulhavy, Nino, Gunnrita, and Absalon. Lots of riders have been the best on a season, but those four had truely special seasons.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Last picks before the start

Women:
1. Neff (By a lot)
2. Erin Huck
3. Annika L.
4. Emily B
5. Chloe W.

Men
1. Van der Poel
2. Nino
3. Forster
4. Avancini
5. Grotts


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## Ketzal (Oct 30, 2016)

Neff, Batty, Annika possibly Tauber.
Nino, Forster, Van der Poel

I would have had Cooper in there, but it seems he's having another of his off form weekends.
He's sometimes very competitive, then randomly not. Seems he struggles to hold a peak, or maybe it's timing the peaks perfectly?

Hopefully he perfects it next season.

From the course preview I saw, it looks like the best overall MTBr will win each race. Sometimes it's really just the fittest rider, but this course has some legit tech sections. Some stiff climbs as well. Small sections of the climbs look technically challenging, especially if it's wet.

Should be fun.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Ketzal said:


> I would have had Cooper in there, but it seems he's having another of his off form weekends.
> He's sometimes very competitive, then randomly not. Seems he struggles to hold a peak, or maybe it's timing the peaks perfectly?
> 
> Hopefully he perfects it next season.


 Doesn't he go home after every race? (I think I read or heard that somewhere), so back to NZ probably doesn't help.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

mik_git said:


> Doesn't he go home after every race? (I think I read or heard that somewhere), so back to NZ probably doesn't help.


Nope. Last season he was home quite a bit because of illness.


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## mv70 (Feb 15, 2018)

what tyres do xc elite ride in the wet and mud
Superstrong unstoppable Neff today !


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## dwperry (Dec 8, 2013)

What a race from neff.

Almost kind of cruel to make her sit there for the long tv interview segment. For the downhillers its easy, they're chilling in their baseball caps, but Jolanda is still muddy and out of breath haha


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Very close and intense race for the World cup title. Neff was definitely the strongest from the get go, it was those 2 flats that actually gave Langvad a chance. Then, Langvad flatting made things just a little bit more fair, but to be honest Neff was the strongest all along. 

It really surprised me how inferior Langvad was in the technical sections as opposed to Neff, Batty and PFP. I know she is not at the same level as the others in technical skill, but in this race she was awfully slow, perhaps tire choice?


----------



## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

dwperry said:


> What a race from neff.
> 
> Almost kind of cruel to make her sit there for the long tv interview segment. For the downhillers its easy, they're chilling in their baseball caps, but Jolanda is still muddy and out of breath haha


She is always out of breath. I think it is just part of the nerves. She has a great personality. The fact she overcame two flats in one race is amazing.

Jolanda not only stole Batty's first WC win, she took her necklace too.

Annika needs to find some mud tires and work on her skills.

Things sure got a little nasty with the grabbing/hitting with Batty & Annika, kinda disappointed to see that go on. I think Batty's frustration level with Annika trying to overtake only to walking everything again got the best of her.


----------



## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

TDLover said:


> It really surprised me how inferior Langvad was in the technical sections as opposed to Neff, Batty and PFP. I know she is not at the same level as the others in technical skill, but in this race she was awfully slow, perhaps tire choice?


I actually believe Langvad has a bit of a mental block when it comes to descending on a slippery track.


----------



## malayneum (Mar 7, 2018)

very unsportsmanship show by the girls. they should be fined by the UCI.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Unsportsmanship?? Nah it is just racing. Surprised it didn't happen more today since if you get stuck behind someone who can't ride a section it gets frustrating.

LMN, you forgot Neff. She has been dominate over at least 3 seasons. 

Schuuuuuuuteeer! Dang he had a good mistake free day. Feel bad for Gerhard. I think he could have gotten the win if not for his two mechanicals. I am picking him for Worlds.

Neff was on another planet today. Two flats with one huge time loss on the rear tire flat but she clawed her way back and won.
Annika has the engine but perhaps her size puts her at a disadvantage on the tech.
XC is about the whole package. Up, down, endurance and a never say die attitude.


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## mrbadwrench (Sep 13, 2016)

Nah. Nino wasn't even tired. Even the commentators standing next to him said he wasn't even sweating. He had it in the bag. Looked like mvdp was absolutely dead by the 5th lap. 

Super surprised at neff being able to win after 2 flats though. Definitely one of the greatest performances I have ever seen.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

The women’s race was an absolutely dynamic conclusion to a great season. Batty, Neff and Prevot put on a skills clinic with the tech. Neff’s technical skill and her confidence in that skill are superb. 

The contact... racing is racing and it’s no road racing. I highly doubt any competitors didn’t walk at least some portion of that course but at times it seemed like Langvad was never on the bike and slowing up everyone behind her who had the skill to ride the sections. 

On the 3rd lap in the rocks, great save by Batty with her modified Superman move.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

So... maybe I missed it, but did anyone else have any level of curiosity about the hand batting between Annika and Emily on the single track climb?


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

jrob300 said:


> So... maybe I missed it, but did anyone else have any level of curiosity about the hand batting between Annika and Emily on the single track climb?


Yeah, it was mentioned in previous posts as unsportmanship.

The truth is Langvad was slowing down every rider that was behind her on technical sections. No rule against that though.

Emily was the one who tried to grabbed her first, then Anika just responded similarly.

As Bart put it bluntly, hands on handlebars, not anywhere else.

To be honest the issue was somewhat minor, not sure it merits some disciplinary action.

I'm a fan of Batty, but I if were Langvad I would pursue a complaint. Not because it made a difference in the race outcome, but because Batty is the kind of racer that is very delicate on these matters (anyone remember when she played victim at the start line?), I have also seen her complain of other rider actions.

It's only fair to have it both ways. My 2cents.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I feel for Emily. She knew to be able to compete for the win she needed get into that single track in front of Annika. Frustration and competition led to her reaching out, does not make it right and I bet she wishes she kept her hands on the bars.

Gerhard is super strong. He rode MVDP off his wheel on the flat start straight away. If he could start and descend quicker he would be winning a lot of races.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

I also think Nino had Kerschbaumer covered, he looked very strong!

Neff was absolutely killing it, crazy, i was rooting for her big time! Women's race was probably the best xco race i remember watching


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

That womens race was a cracker!


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Also that was a pretty big crowd

And as much as I'm a fan of the fans and the cheering, not a fan of the chainsaws, I wonder if it bugs the competitors, or urges them on?


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

What a great couple of races. The women's race was particularly exciting. Unbelievable show by Neff. Will be exciting to see what Kirschbaumer can do at worlds if he can avoid mechanical trouble.

But . . . did anyone notice that MVDP's lockout seemed to be broken? His fork was bobbing heavily on the climbs in the last half of the race. First time I saw that, right about when he started to drop back on a climb, I thought uh-oh, his fork is stealing watts from him. Especially if his shock was doing the same, this explains his fade all by itself.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

He definetly didn't fade thanks to lockout


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

MVdP did have the best flat front tire washout scrub the jump to flat spin step over recovery.


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

I can't believe no one has said anything about the length of time it took to change Jolanda's 1st flat. It seemed ridiculous to me, i was screaming at the dang tv screen, lol! I figured it was all over for her title at that point but man did she prove me wrong. 

Emily grabbing Annika was strange, of course she is going to try to get ahead of her if she isn't as good in the upcoming section. A great race to watch, that course was knarley!


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

I still don't get why the racers go out there with no stuff to fix at least a flat tire on the spot. I'm old school from the early 90's. I was at Performance Bike a few weeks ago, and saw a smallish can from Hutchinson for fix a flat, just like I use for my car in emergencies.

Air and sealant, all in one. If you had that in your back pocket, or on your bike, and you felt that tire going down, wouldn't it be worth it to just screw that on and bam, more than likely your tire would pop up and you could keep going? Get a new wheel anyway at the tech zone if you wanted. But at least you aren't stuck pushing for what could be eons.

I get not having a tube and levers and all that stuff, but I used to see those big air cans behind the seatposts of racers. That was just air as far as I know.

The only problem with the hutchinson stuff was that it was only schraeder valve.

Couldn't Schwalbe, or maxxis, somebody, come up with a simple all in one solution just for racers? Even if it ruined the tire and valve? One time use?

Anyway, MVdP's crash was insane. Front tire going flat at precisely the wrong time. He was visibly pissed off. Almost killed himself on that one!

I'm bummed that the season is all over already. Man, I can't wait until 2019.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

*Neff not Naff*

Isn't Neff a great personality, a proper technically amazing MTBer, and all round great ambassador for our sport? I love to races won on pure skill and also mental fortitude. One of the most impressive displays ever by a MTB racer I can recall. And how she claimed the flat's were her fault, very humble.

But also how about the FS v Hardtail debate. Batty, 27.5 hardtail no dropper was smoking Langvad 29, dropper Fs bike on the descents. And Batty, whilst good, is not the fastest descender. I believe the FS advantage is not actually speed on the descent, more stops you getting so tired over bumpy terrain. And the manufacturers push.

Thanks Red Bull for bringing this to us!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

joeduda said:


> I can't believe no one has said anything about the length of time it took to change Jolanda's 1st flat. It seemed ridiculous to me, i was screaming at the dang tv screen, lol! I figured it was all over for her title at that point but man did she prove me wrong.
> 
> Emily grabbing Annika was strange, of course she is going to try to get ahead of her if she isn't as good in the upcoming section. A great race to watch, that course was knarley!


I believe I did but I know my posts don't get read due to my poor spelling skills!

And I don't think Nino could have covered Gerhard if he didn't have those mechanicals. Gerhard was clearly the strongest rider on the day. He made up huge chunks of time at various times during the race. Not a fast starter but he builds throughout the race.

I am going to watch last years race from Lenzerheide before I make my picks for the worlds.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

my bets for Lenzerheide 

1 Kerschbaumer
2 Schurted
3 Marotte

1 Batty
2 Nef
3 Gunn Rita


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## aohammer (Feb 2, 2006)

One of the best womens' XCO races, last few laps especially! Worth watching again! Neff was definitely at her game on this techy course, passing at will down different lines and drops, so balanced and controlled. And while waiting on that first flat, man was she calm. Super humble too, great personality, enjoyed her post-race interview, pretty much covered everybody who supported her, including us fans! Also kudos on Emily's handling skills on that hardtail! Got my respect.

Big question. Nobody mentioned what was causing those chain derailments with Gerhard, was it the Shimano setup, or ??


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Gotta love Emily's flying W. That she kept it in control is amazing.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

MattMay said:


> Gotta love Emily's flying W. That she kept it in control is amazing.


She was feeling the pressure from Neff, just before that in the last sections she was struggling as well.

Neff is becoming like Nino race by race, now she is winning like him.


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## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

TDLover said:


> Neff is becoming like Nino race by race, now she is winning like him.


Somewhat, but she doesn't have a final sprint like Nino that makes people think they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## exodus1500 (Jun 5, 2010)

Langvad and Batty are two of my favorite racers and I generally root for Langvad unless Batty is going to finally get her first win. 

I was pretty disappointed by what I saw from Langvad in that race. I rewatched "the grab" several times on the computer in HD to see what happened. Langvad was passing her in a tight spot where she probably shouldnt have been(I'm guessing she was getting frustrated and seeing the overall points championship chances getting away). Langvad forced her to the inside of the corner where there was a rather large rock. It looked to me like it was a precautionary reaction to being forced inside and about to clip the rock, which would have caused her rear wheel to kick out.


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## teleken (Jul 22, 2005)

Not only was Neff's rear wheel swap painfully slow but the Kross mechanics were slow changing Maja's rear wheel too. I know I struggle with mine in a work stand in the comfort of my house but dang they need to step it up. It looked like they were struggling with the axle and I wondered if it had gotten caked with mud and messing with the threads or not in the drop outs properly

RE the Batty hand batting it made no sense for Annika to be in front only to walk those tech sections the other 3 could ride. Admit your beaten in that part of the course and try to make it up on your strong sections. Overall the women's races have been excellent and that was an incredible finish.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

One thing I’d like to know concerning the wheel swap is how much rotor rub if any occurs with the new wheel/rotor. I believe one reason why disc brakes won’t quickly become the standard in road racing (I watched the Vuelta yesterday and there are even fewer disc bikes than in the Tour) is due to the risk of just that, and the resulting watt loss. There are some big discussions in other forums on this topic (Road Bike Reviews, Paceline, Weight Weenies). I know when I swap wheels with identical hubs and rotors it’s rare that the rotors spin rub-free. Especially on the rear because it’s used more. I’m sure in World Cup they start with new rotors on all wheel sets, but I would think given the technicality of La Bresse that some wear on the rotors had to have occurred just in the first few laps, enough perhaps to move the pistons in and create a wee bit of rub on the all-new rotor on the wheel swap. Maybe not enough to make a huge difference in an xc race but it sure would drive me nuts mentally. What are the chances of an “immaculate” wheel swap? Just curious, but would love to know. Any insight LMN and others?


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## exodus1500 (Jun 5, 2010)

I have said it the whole season. I cant believe how painfully slow teams are at swapping rear wheels. I find it much easier when the bike is upside down too. Take the 2 seconds it takes flip it over and back again, and rip the wheel out and slam the new one it. It shouldnt take more than 15 seconds total. I am completely baffled by how slow they all are.


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## bigboom (May 17, 2005)

You can buy shims that will allow you to align all brake rotors for the wheels sets you use so that you don't have this issue when swapping wheels.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

^Point is...are they using them in World Cup xco? (Also, for centerlock rotors...can you point me in the direction of such shims?)


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Shimano XTR hubs and DT Swiss 240S hubs are pretty much dead-on for centre lock brake rotor mounting and cassette alignment, so there's not much fuss if all the wheels use identical components. That's especially true with thru axles rather than 135mm QR's where it was still possible to tighten the QR without having the wheel 100% aligned in the dropout.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MattMay said:


> One thing I'd like to know concerning the wheel swap is how much rotor rub if any occurs with the new wheel/rotor. I believe one reason why disc brakes won't quickly become the standard in road racing (I watched the Vuelta yesterday and there are even fewer disc bikes than in the Tour) is due to the risk of just that, and the resulting watt loss.


That problem will be overcome and I believe disc brakes will soon become ubiquitous in pro pelotons. Wheel changes are another story and I'd guess that bike swaps will become more common instead.



exodus1500 said:


> I have said it the whole season. I cant believe how painfully slow teams are at swapping rear wheels. I find it much easier when the bike is upside down too. Take the 2 seconds it takes flip it over and back again, and rip the wheel out and slam the new one it. It shouldnt take more than 15 seconds total. I am completely baffled by how slow they all are.


I've seen some bad ones but keep in mind the high pressure situation, I'd guess it's hard to perform flawlessly with tv cameras jammed in your face. Anyway 15 seconds is fast even for a road bike wheel change with no disc brake or thru-axle, I doubt they're often done that fast on a mtb.

Also for most mechanics it's easier to work on them right side up because that's what they're used to.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

No excuses with pit stops. Here is a friend of mine, former Pro and AMA Rookie of the Year:






15 seconds to refuel, swap wheels, get a drink, and roll out.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Sidewalk said:


> No excuses with pit stops. Here is a friend of mine, former Pro and AMA Rookie of the Year:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if most mtb pros have the budget for 8 mechanics in the pit.


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## exodus1500 (Jun 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> I've seen some bad ones but keep in mind the high pressure situation, I'd guess it's hard to perform flawlessly with tv cameras jammed in your face. Anyway 15 seconds is fast even for a road bike wheel change with no disc brake or thru-axle, I doubt they're often done that fast on a mtb.
> 
> Also for most mechanics it's easier to work on them right side up because that's what they're used to.


Pressure or not its literally their job to fix bikes. They need to practice like their riders do. They almost cost Neff her overall championship. If I can do it in 15-20 seconds, they sure as heck better be able to.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

joeduda said:


> I can't believe no one has said anything about the length of time it took to change Jolanda's 1st flat. It seemed ridiculous to me, i was screaming at the dang tv screen, lol! I figured it was all over for her title at that point but man did she prove me wrong...


It could be partly due to the through axles that are more difficult to insert quickly, especially if the wheel is not 100% aligned. You could see that mechanic backing the axle out and re-trying again after the first attempt to tighten wasn't successful.



curtlo-dork said:


> I still don't get why the racers go out there with no stuff to fix at least a flat tire on the spot. I'm old school from the early 90's. I was at Performance Bike a few weeks ago, and saw a smallish can from Hutchinson for fix a flat, just like I use for my car in emergencies.
> 
> Air and sealant, all in one. If you had that in your back pocket, or on your bike, and you felt that tire going down, wouldn't it be worth it to just screw that on and bam, more than likely your tire would pop up and you could keep going? Get a new wheel anyway at the tech zone if you wanted. But at least you aren't stuck pushing for what could be eons.
> 
> ...


Most of the flats one the tubeless setups are due to snake bites and not some small pinholes that can be sealed with sealant. Don't forget that they already have sealant in the tires to start with so additional sealant in the can would not help them much as the cut of the tire is too large to be sealed.



madfella said:


> ...
> But also how about the FS v Hardtail debate. Batty, 27.5 hardtail no dropper was smoking Langvad 29, dropper Fs bike on the descents. And Batty, whilst good, is not the fastest descender. I believe the FS advantage is not actually speed on the descent, more stops you getting so tired over bumpy terrain. And the manufacturers push.
> 
> Thanks Red Bull for bringing this to us!


The difference here wasn't bikes but the riders. Batty being on a HT was theoretically putting here at a bigger disadvantage over Annika but she managed quite well even with that handicap. Langvad was pretty poor on the descents and in the technical stuff and no bike could help her with that. You can see it pretty obviously in the way how she was taking the B line over the logs.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Thrilling women's race. Neff is always a hoot to watch. It was interesting to see her "spin to win" vs Batty's low-cadence grind it out style.

Neff faded hard a couple of times after catching up but was able to catch a breather on the descents, I guess.

Not too thrilled to see Absalon on an eBike, even in the cheering section  To me that was more unsportsmanlike than Batty's little shove, which made for good drama.

Will any pros ever ride rugged-enough tires that can last a whole race? Thin "racelite" sidewalls seem like a calculated risk that fails more often than it succeeds.

As a builder of sustainable trails I have to wonder how these race courses survive year after year. They clearly aren't built for regular use. Sorry, missed the men's race, but did they push bikes on the steepest muddy climbs too?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not sure if most mtb pros have the budget for 8 mechanics in the pit.


Most mountain bike pro teams aren't handling a 10 pound rear wheel with a hot disc on a 400 pound motorcycle (plus rider) either. Regardless, the wheel swap was done in 15 seconds, with a chain and disc brake. No alignment issues (hope not, that track has spots where you are doing nearly 200 MPH).

There is no excuse why a bicycle mechanic can't have a 3 pound wheel and tire swapped out on a 20 pound bike fast, under pressure. If you can't handle the pressure, you shouldn't be on the World Cup stage. I'm curious to try it out myself, see how long it takes.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I guess all the fast wheel changers here need to go to work for the pros!

When you are under pressure and the bike is clogged with mud etc. it is a lot harder than sitting in your shop with clean wheels trying a wheel swap on a work stand.

Granted it did take a long time but you can be sure that they will be practicing their wheel swaps before the worlds. I give her mechanics lots of props for getting her through a whole season of racing with minimal problems. She blamed herself for running her tire pressure too low.

Anywho back to racing! I watched the men's race from last year in Lenzerheide and it was muddy and slippery. Gerhard worked his way up through the pack again but this year he is so much faster. Kulhavy almost caught Nino after being almost a minute down. Van der Poel was killing it til about two laps to go then he went backwards. A little bit of altitude might have been his downfall. He seems to be pacing better this year.

My guess for the men's race:
Nino
Gerhard
Kulharvey
Van der Poel
Avancini

Womens:

Neff
Gunn Rita
Langvad
Batty
Prevot
Courtney


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Sidewalk said:


> Most mountain bike pro teams aren't handling a 10 pound rear wheel with a hot disc on a 400 pound motorcycle (plus rider) either.


Yeah I was just kidding.

I have seen a lot of botched wheel changes though and I do think some of the mech's out there might want to think about practicing wheel changes more. Everyone's a pro behind the screen though, it's easy!


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

^I think you’re spot on...all about practice. In motor sports wheel changes are an integral part of the race. In mtb wheel changed are outlier events. So I’m betting they don’t practice so much.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Nino’s team had a 17 or 18 second wheel change a couple years back.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Picks: Lenzerheide is a different course. 
At 2.5 minutes for men the main climb is long for a world cup course, but with an average grade of only 8% is not particularly steep. The rest of the course has no sustained efforts, or perhaps can be described as a sustained effort. It is actually pretty similar to the Champery WC course. I think the course favours a powerful rider who if efficient pedalling over rough terrain. 

Since it is worlds and being world champ is all that really matters I am only going to pick the winner.

Women: Keller. With all the drama last weekend, Keller was completely missed. She blew up a bit at the end but was just off the lead group most of the race. I think on a course with less climbing she can win. Plus, she lived in Squamish for 6 months so has an honorary canadian citizenship in my books.

Men: Van der Poel. I think on a course without multiple sustained climbs he can match the stronger riders. He win decisively a 3-up sprint with Nino and Gerhard .


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

LMN said:


> Picks: Lenzerheide is a different course.
> Men: Van der Poel. I think on a course without multiple sustained climbs he can match the stronger riders. He win decisively a 3-up sprint with Nino and Gerhard .


Except Lenzerheide is at altitude which MVdP is awful at.

Does anybody know if the race will be streamed somewhere?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

TDLover said:


> Except Lenzerheide is at altitude which MVdP is awful at.
> 
> Does anybody know if the race will be streamed somewhere?


It isn't that high and he did race well in Andora. I suspect his altitude problem is more a long climb problem.

I also know that he been doing a lot of altitude training this summer.


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## nya (Oct 22, 2011)

I will go for Maja and Anton.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I’d love to see MvdP actually race fresh. Like, take time off, de-train, build up and then give a WC XCO season a solid effort. 

I realize he loves to race his bike and is still young, but he’s gotta have more full gas race miles in his legs than just about anyone in the world this year. I know he took a short break during the big early season gap, but he’s done a LOT of racing between CX, road and MTB.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

TDLover said:


> Except Lenzerheide is at altitude which MVdP is awful at.
> 
> Does anybody know if the race will be streamed somewhere?


Here ya go: https://www.nbcsports.com/gold/nbc-sports-gold-packages-prices

I have bought their cycling pass the last two years. Here is a list of events they show and they also offer replays. $49 for the year. Less than dinner out for two and a lot more worthwhile!

*Subject to Change

Tour de France July 7 - 29, 2018

La Course by Le Tour July 17, 2018

Prudential RideLondon Classique July 28, 2018

Prudential RideLondon Classic July 29, 2018

La Vuelta a España August 25 - September 16, 2018

Madrid Challenge by La Vuelta September 16, 2018

UCI Mountain Bike World Championship September 8 - 9, 2018

UCI Road World Championships September 23 - 30, 2018

Paris-Tours October 7, 2018

Santos Tour Down Under January 13 - 20, 2019

Paris-Nice March 3 - 10, 2019

Paris-Roubaix April 7, 2019

La Fleche Wallonne April 17, 2019

Liège-Bastogne-Liège April 21, 2019

Amgen Tour of California May 12 - 18, 2019

Critérium du Dauphiné June 2 - 9, 2019

UCI Track Cycling World Cup TBD

UCI Cyclo-cross World Cup TBD

Also if you can get it, redbulltv will have it as well I think.

Regarding MVDP sure he has a lot of racing in his legs but many racers do. Look at Neff who also did cyclocross and was set to do the Cape Epic.

And speaking of Neff, sure she may come off as nice but she is an assassin on the bike. I was sure she was going to take herself out along with others during the last race at La Bresse. She is nuts on a bike!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I’m guessing MvdP did 3x the number of CX races Neff did last year. Maybe more.

Hell, he’s probably won more road races than Neff has even contested this year. 


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

I know they already have regular sealant. I’m talking about some thick mega sealant blast with air to pop the tire back up and seal the holes. Big holes. Ruin the tire, that’s fine. But something made just for a one time save. Get to the pits, new wheel and air can, and go again.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Not too thrilled to see Absalon on an eBike, even in the cheering section  To me that was more unsportsmanlike than Batty's little shove, which made for good drama.


he's been using an eBike for a few years now in training for tech skills, I guess it allows him to do maximum of fitness training, then can do loads more skills training with less effort. Not a fan, but i guess every bit helps.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> Nino's team had a 17 or 18 second wheel change a couple years back.


Maybe you mean that wheel change (which was Florian Vogel and the Focus team).

My guesses:

1. Schurter
2. Kulhavy
3. M. Flückiger

1. Neff
2. Maja
3. PFP


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> I'm guessing MvdP did 3x the number of CX races Neff did last year. Maybe more.
> 
> Hell, he's probably won more road races than Neff has even contested this year.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No doubt Van der Poel is amazing but he is not alone in his amazement! Wout Van art beat him in the worlds and is ranked above him on the road. I have not doubt Wout could be a top level mountain bike racer too.

A couple good reads:

Racing days in 2017: https://www.procyclingstats.com/season/2017/most-racedays

How much do pro cyclists ride per year: How much does a pro cyclist ride in a year? â€" Vanzweelism

Endurance racers probably put on more miles per year. When I did the Tour Divide I put on over 2800 miles in a month.

I know a 55 year old lady that racks up over 10,000 mile a year and climbs over a million feet. In fact this year she is already at 9,800 miles with over 780,000 feet of climbing!

Here are some more: https://www.bicycling.com/training/a20048360/how-these-amateur-cyclists-ride-10-000-miles-a-year/

But I digress!


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> I'd love to see MvdP actually race fresh. Like, take time off, de-train, build up and then give a WC XCO season a solid effort.
> 
> I realize he loves to race his bike and is still young, but he's gotta have more full gas race miles in his legs than just about anyone in the world this year. I know he took a short break during the big early season gap, but he's done a LOT of racing between CX, road and MTB.


It will be interesting to see how he does this CX season. Continue to be strong & dominate, or fade and burn out at some point? I am guessing less dominant.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

LMN said:


> Women: Keller. With all the drama last weekend, Keller was completely missed. She blew up a bit at the end but was just off the lead group most of the race. I think on a course with less climbing she can win. Plus, she lived in Squamish for 6 months so has an honorary canadian citizenship in my books.


Alessandra Keller is riding U23 at the world championships. We can expect a good fight against Sina Frei.


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

exodus1500 said:


> Langvad and Batty are two of my favorite racers and I generally root for Langvad unless Batty is going to finally get her first win.
> 
> I was pretty disappointed by what I saw from Langvad in that race. I rewatched "the grab" several times on the computer in HD to see what happened. Langvad was passing her in a tight spot where she probably shouldnt have been(I'm guessing she was getting frustrated and seeing the overall points championship chances getting away). Langvad forced her to the inside of the corner where there was a rather large rock. It looked to me like it was a precautionary reaction to being forced inside and about to clip the rock, which would have caused her rear wheel to kick out.


I watched it again yesterday and thought the same thing, it appeared that emily may have been trying to avoid falling into anika which would have taken them both down. Their ability to be able to ride some of those super steep sections is impressive.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

mik_git said:


> he's been using an eBike for a few years now in training for tech skills, I guess it allows him to do maximum of fitness training, then can do loads more skills training with less effort. Not a fan, but i guess every bit helps.


Screw e-bikes! They are have a place for replacing cars and for motorized trails but not for mountain bike trails. They are going to f#$k things up royally!
In fact the West Coast Jr. Mountain Bike Championships was supposedly going to have an E-bike class race. I looked at registration and couldn't find it so I hope they came to their senses and eliminated it.


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

curtlo-dork said:


> I still don't get why the racers go out there with no stuff to fix at least a flat tire on the spot. I'm old school from the early 90's. .


The self support rules went away with the UCI and the sport being dominated as a Euro sport after the 90's. I'm an old guy, not so much old school, but i think the self support rule should still be in place. I can remember Tomac changing flats and still winning races. It would make the races more interesting and be more rooted to the true spirit of Mountain Biking.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

richwolf said:


> Screw e-bikes! They are have a place for replacing cars and for motorized trails but not for mountain bike trails. They are going to f#$k things up royally!
> In fact the West Coast Jr. Mountain Bike Championships was supposedly going to have an E-bike class race. I looked at registration and couldn't find it so I hope they came to their senses and eliminated it.


I don't think we need to turn this into an eBike debate.


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## Boosted GP (Mar 10, 2007)

Sorry to burst most people’s bubble. But more than 45 sec for a wheel change is ridiculous. I race elite level as an amateur. I have raced in world cups. And my wife is my crew. She is my pit hand, nutritionist, masseuse, bottle handler etc etc. 

I have had my fair share of whee changes in races. And I average 20sec for a rear wheel. That is me changing my own wheel and my wife holds the bike upright for me. Front wheel is slower (lefty) and I still do a sub 45 sec change. Again. Done on my own. Tired, out of breath and shaky. 

So a pro mechanic has no excuse. I keep spare axles, bolts spammers etc on hand so I am not scratching in the sand if I drop it. Or if it’s full of mud. 


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Sidewalk said:


> I don't think we need to turn this into an eBike debate.


Hey, I didn't bring the subject up but e-bikes(motorcycles) are going to change the landscape dramatically.

Absolon was riding rather dangerously in his support of Prevot. Can you imagine if a lot of other spectators were there on their e-bikes doing the same thing?

Last I will say on this subject on this thread.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

bananajoe said:


> Alessandra Keller is riding U23 at the world championships. We can expect a good fight against Sina Frei.


That should be a good race. Hasn't Sina won almost all of the U23 women's races this year?


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

I'm not talking about a "rule", just common sense here. The #1 problem for these top level racers is still flat tires, then broken chains next. Maybe they need a super special race day sealant or something? I still think they should at least be able to fix a flat. Even popping the wheel off, prying one side of a tire off with 2 tire levers, sticking in a tube, one of those orange Tubolito type tubes (of which I have, and are so tiny it's ridiculous), throw a c02 on it, and you'd be done in a minute or so, but best of all, you wouldn't have to run 2 miles, losing 5-10 minutes in the process. 

For some of these racers, 3rd place versus 20th place is enough to go from 3rd overall to 10th. Seems more than worth the weight and hassle.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

The women's race was so good!



TDLover said:


> Very close and intense race for the World cup title. Neff was definitely the strongest from the get go, it was those 2 flats that actually gave Langvad a chance. Then, Langvad flatting made things just a little bit more fair, but to be honest Neff was the strongest all along.
> 
> It really surprised me how inferior Langvad was in the technical sections as opposed to Neff, Batty and PFP. I know she is not at the same level as the others in technical skill, but in this race she was awfully slow, perhaps tire choice?


Maybe she should spend less time on a darn ebike and more time working on technical skills on her "rest" days. How hard is it on your polarized days to piddle around and roll out at 135 watts and bomb some really tough stuff on your XC bike?

I was rooting for Annika mid season. Now I am ready to "unfollow" any pro who posts these BS ebike commercials on social media.

I was actually getting angry for the other women about her refusal to ride her bike and intentional blocking. Add that to her BS move where she hooked Batty's arm with her Bars... I'm glad Batty came around her. Much respect to her for hammering on the hardtail. I think without Annika in the way at points in the race, it would have been a different result.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

exodus1500 said:


> Pressure or not its literally their job to fix bikes. They need to practice like their riders do. They almost cost Neff her overall championship. If I can do it in 15-20 seconds, they sure as heck better be able to.


Agreed. The older gentleman for Kross was having a very bad day or needs to be replaced.

In Auto racing, all pit members are there for their skills of their trade. Wheel changes are the primary measurement for whether or not they are in the pit.

I dont think properly shimmed discs are the problems that any of these teams are facing.

A few things driving these aweful wheel swaps.
1. if the rider can get it into the 10-11 cog, it helps with clean chain alignment off and on. Not always possible with a flat, nut not a deal breaker. 
2. Shimano vs Sram Derailleur (isnt Kross on shimano 12s? Shimanos clutch and swingarm is inferior to SRAMs lockout for wheel swap speed. 
3. The gentleman could not get the hub aligned to get the axle to go through and thread into the frame. This could be a frame design issue or user error. 
4. When are these companies going to come up with a quicklock version or license Manitous Q loc axle system. Axles can be inserted and locked in 2-3 seconds. with no tool. It amazes me that no one has done this or created it vs using the DT rear axle.


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## Walt Disney's Frozen Head (Jan 9, 2008)

FJSnoozer said:


> 3. The gentleman could not get the hub aligned to get the axle to go through and thread into the frame. This could be a frame design issue or user error.
> 4. When are these companies going to come up with a quicklock version or license Manitous Q loc axle system. Axles can be inserted and locked in 2-3 seconds. with no tool. It amazes me that no one has done this or created it vs using the DT rear axle.


my friend's focus cx bike has a thru-axle (rear) that's maybe 1/4 to 1/2 turn. It's pretty sweet.

possibly related, i sometimes have a bear of a time on my 429t with getting the hub aligned. if there was a slight chamfer it'd go a long way towards guiding the threads to the right place and if I try to force it, the rear triangle just flexes/moves which doesn't help.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

As much as I enjoyed the women’s race, Neff’s only saving grace was that all the ladies were racing tires that sucked. What was the total number of flat tires in that race, anyway?

Just like when Kulhavy broke through with 29ers when the conventional wisdom was 26x1.9 FTW, someone will eventually take a risk and throw on some 2.4 snakeskins and walk away with a win.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

FJSnoozer said:


> The women's race was so good!
> 
> Maybe she should spend less time on a darn ebike and more time working on technical skills on her "rest" days. How hard is it on your polarized days to piddle around and roll out at 135 watts and bomb some really tough stuff on your XC bike?
> 
> ...


I had, well have, the same thoughts. It was frustrating to watch as a spectator so as a competitor in that particular event... it'd be maddening.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Red Bull just added the world championships. Weird thing is, I have the NBC Soorts Gold cycling package and they don’t list it (yet).


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

FJSnoozer said:


> The women's race was so good!
> 
> Maybe she should spend less time on a darn ebike and more time working on technical skills on her "rest" days. How hard is it on your polarized days to piddle around and roll out at 135 watts and bomb some really tough stuff on your XC bike?


Absalon's performances also went downhill when he started marketing the benefits of the eBike on social media. He had to retire sooner than planned.


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

It was frustrating to watch Annika run that *entire* down hill and then take every B-line. Perhaps she was just trying to not get hurt before world champs.

I don't really think she was intentionally blocking though, she was just flat out stronger than anyone else on the climbs that lead into that pinch point section.

That said, I was still screaming at the TV at times.

Why did she bother riding with a dropper? She clearly didn't use it. Even if she would have gotten back on after the last hairpin (that Batty was even dismounting for) she could have saved some face and probably 15-20 seconds a lap.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

briscoelab said:


> It was frustrating to watch Annika run that *entire* down hill and then take every B-line. Perhaps she was just trying to not get hurt before world champs.
> 
> I don't really think she was intentionally blocking though, she was just flat out stronger than anyone else on the climbs that lead into that pinch point section.
> 
> ...


Although it was frustrating to watch her, she wasn't actually any slower then the girls who were riding. (Exception being Jolanda).

I was in the woods with a stop watch during the women's and U23 mens race and the "runners" were just as fast or even faster then those attempting to ride. The roots were so slick that those riding would get moving, have a bobble have to stop and dismount, and them remount. I ended up telling people that if you are riding the second your first major dab and have to get off commit to running the rest of the way.

Slow speed techy trails don't work great for racing. Unfortunately it often ends up that running is the fastest way through them.


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

briscoelab said:


> It was frustrating to watch Annika run that *entire* down hill and then take every B-line. Perhaps she was just trying to not get hurt before world champs.
> 
> I don't really think she was intentionally blocking though, she was just flat out stronger than anyone else on the climbs that lead into that pinch point section.
> 
> ...


I was screaming at Langvad for walking and walking and walking while Emily could ride much faster was hung up behind her. I don't approve of Emily's move but I get her frustration. It's one thing to do it when you're in the race lead, but when it causes both you and the rider behind you to lose valuable time on the leader then it's so frustrating. It's a mountain bike race, ride your bike.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

scottg said:


> It's a mountain bike race, ride your bike.


It's a cyclocross race, ride your bik... oh, wait.
It's a Single Speed MTB race, ride your bik... oh, wait.

It's a race, do what makes you fastest through a section without taking risks that may have big consequences on your next race.


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## aohammer (Feb 2, 2006)

Here's something I'm hoping for an educated answer here. CFR took the team win and this sure is good to see. Does anyone have inputs on if this is due to new training regimen, better team member like Avancini, and/or equipment due to the lighter Ocho lefty setup with either Scalpel or F-Si? Curious....


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Wheel change challenge: https://www.redbull.com/int-en/tv/v...nge-with-bmc?playlist=AP-1SV3K1FJW2111:extras


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

Pretty harsh for folks to be negative on Langvad for being slightly less dominating in one aspect of her game and unable to ride the unrideable sections that a handful of other fantastically talented stars were able to handle. Imagine what a threat she will be if she is able to take more time away from dentistry to build her technical skills!

It was such an awesome race. Langvad has incredible and unmatched power. Batty was dishing it out in a way we knew she could do but seeming to reach deeper than I have seen before. Neff was riding like a demon possessed and handled her setbacks with such poise. All just unbelievably exciting and impressive. And PFP too! Wow.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

^Yeah, I was thinking during the race, geez she's crap on the technical...er... relatively. I mean compared to the average joe, the'd smash them ( I know I wouldn't see which way she went on a tech section, let alone a climb).


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

I also don't understand the hate on Langvad, she was fighting for the world championship, she was entitled to defend her position. Yet, I see many folks with "strong" opinions or worse, they flip the batty incident to blame Langvad.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

TDLover said:


> I also don't understand the hate on Langvad, she was fighting for the world championship, she was entitled to defend her position. Yet, I see many folks with "strong" opinions or worse, they flip the batty incident to blame Langvad.


She was fighting for the World Cup, World Championships are next weekend.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

TDLover said:


> I also don't understand the hate on Langvad, she was fighting for the world championship, she was entitled to defend her position. Yet, I see many folks with "strong" opinions or worse, they flip the batty incident to blame Langvad.


Hey it is a forum full of lots of opinions and even spell checkers!


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## Poncharelli (Jan 13, 2005)

I think the UCI should make a rule that if you're walking your bike on tech sections, you should yield right of way to riders riding. Not just for racing but also for safety. Pretty easy to go over the bars if your speed is being dictated by a walker in front of you.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Poncharelli said:


> I think the UCI should make a rule that if you're walking your bike on tech sections, you should yield right of way to riders riding. Not just for racing but also for safety. Pretty easy to go over the bars if your speed is being dictated by a walker in front of you.


Plus all the more motivation to work on ones tech skills to better match the competition and contend.


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## rallymaniac (Oct 12, 2011)

nya said:


> I will go for Maja and Anton.


As much as I'm a Maja fan, she's been blowing starts too much this year. It's her weak spot and she would have some much better results this year had it not been for that weak spot. 
I'd love to be wrong thou and see her with the rainbow jersey again.


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## us338386 (May 10, 2015)

zgxtreme said:


> Plus all the more motivation to work on ones tech skills to better match the competition and contend.


Annika lost me on the 3rd or so lap where she accelerated ahead on foot specifically so as not to let someone (Emily?) pass and then proceeded to hold them up as she got back on her bike. Total BS in my book. I don't care if it's legal or not. Just classless. Like Gaze, her sponsorship value probably took a hit after that race. Emily owned her red bull helmet!

It's mountain biking, not mountain running with a bike on carbon soled shoes. She just didn't even try for most of it.

It reminded me of some roadies who saddle up for XC races who just charge the flats and hills and then refuse to let you pass in the single track while they bobble-head through the course.

I wasn't feeling the gnar in my last race so I intentionally pulled over to let an enduro rider behind me get his groove on during a particularly gnar-strewed downhill. I figure what comes around goes around.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Speaking of enduro, what’s really annoying is when you’re in a pro race, catch the guy in front of you and he refuses to yield even a few inches to let a clearly superior rider pass. That move loses races for riders. Doesn’t happen every time, but enough to matter if you’re podium material.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

us338386 said:


> Annika lost me on the 3rd or so lap where she accelerated ahead on foot specifically so as not to let someone (Emily?) pass and then proceeded to hold them up as she got back on her bike. Total BS in my book. I don't care if it's legal or not. Just classless. Like Gaze, her sponsorship value probably took a hit after that race. Emily owned her red bull helmet!
> 
> It's mountain biking, not mountain running with a bike on carbon soled shoes. She just didn't even try for most of it.
> 
> ...


Gaze wasn't even at that WC? I would say their 'sponsorship value' is doing just fine after the 2018 season.

Anyway in a 6 lap race surely if you don't want to be caught behind someone who might walk some parts you would ensure to get in front of them way before then. If you can't stay in front then I guess that's all part of racing.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

insidertrading said:


> Gaze wasn't even at that WC? I would say their 'sponsorship value' is doing just fine after the 2018 season.
> 
> Anyway in a 6 lap race surely if you don't want to be caught behind someone who might walk some parts you would ensure to get in front of them way before then. If you can't stay in front then I guess that's all part of racing.


I think he's taling about Comm Games discussed waaay earlier in the thread.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

I wonder if Annika's dropper post was broken?


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## mrbadwrench (Sep 13, 2016)

If you want to control the speed In the single track, then be the first one there. It's a race, after all. Work on your fitness and be the first up the hill.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

mrbadwrench said:


> If you want to control the speed In the single track, then be the first one there. It's a race, after all. Work on your fitness and be the first up the hill.


This.

When people complain about "roadies" beating them in races, I have to ask:

If someone with inferior technical ability beats you, how is that anything but your fault?

Get your fat ass up off the couch. Don't eat dessert. Ride harder, faster. Suck less.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> This.
> 
> When people complain about "roadies" beating them in races, I have to ask:
> 
> ...


Easily enough, I'll see it all day next weekend at a NICA race. Some of the faster kids will come off the line not in the front two rows. The course has limited passing opportunities and all of them are straight line and smooth. There are zero opportunities to pass, unless one is granted, in the more technical parts of the course. As a result it'll be a log jam, sprint, log jam, sprint scenario. If a kid is significantly faster through the curvy and technical parts, in some cases to the point that the person holding the pack up could be dropped, it's not his or her fault that the course is laid out that way.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Easily enough, I'll see it all day next weekend at a NICA race. Some of the faster kids will come off the line not in the front two rows. The course has limited passing opportunities and all of them are straight line and smooth. There are zero opportunities to pass, unless one is granted, in the more technical parts of the course. As a result it'll be a log jam, sprint, log jam, sprint scenario. If a kid is significantly faster through the curvy and technical parts, in some cases to the point that the person holding the pack up could be dropped, it's not his or her fault that the course is laid out that way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Two thoughts.

1) Everyone races the same course. There are plenty of courses that don't suit my strengths and magnify my weaknesses. I do them anyways. Because they give me a chance to work on those things and see how I'm progressing. Did a pan flat short track race this summer with a couple dozen turns in a


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Two thoughts.
> 
> 1) Everyone races the same course. There are plenty of courses that don't suit my strengths and magnify my weaknesses. I do them anyways. Because they give me a chance to work on those things and see how I'm progressing. Did a short track race this summer with a couple dozen turns in a <1 mile lap. Super loose turns. No rocks or roots.
> 
> ...


And that's kind of what happens in the NICA races, only throwing bows will get you DQ'ed. Also, the way their starts work can negatively effect self sorting. I do think that this race will be one or lost solely on four 100 yard sprints, once each lap, not really a fair course.

I'm not saying I disagree with your premise, just framing it as an absolute. I just have seen too many times where the better rider loses to someone because of things out of their control like starting position and a course that's not conducive to passing. If they would beat the opponent head to head 10/10 times I don't think not working hard enough is the sole reason.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

tuckerjt07 said:


> And that's kind of what happens in the NICA races, only throwing bows will get you DQ'ed. Also, the way their starts work can negatively effect self sorting. I do think that this race will be one or lost solely on four 100 yard sprints, once each lap, not really a fair course.
> 
> I'm not saying I disagree with your premise, just framing it as an absolute. I just have seen too many times where the better rider loses to someone because of things out of their control like starting position and a course that's not conducive to passing. If they would beat the opponent head to head 10/10 times I don't think not working hard enough is the sole reason.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Won not one, late on a Friday night and edit isn't working

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> And that's kind of what happens in the NICA races, only throwing bows will get you DQ'ed. Also, the way their starts work can negatively effect self sorting. I do think that this race will be one or lost solely on four 100 yard sprints, once each lap, not really a fair course.
> 
> I'm not saying I disagree with your premise, just framing it as an absolute. I just have seen too many times where the better rider loses to someone because of things out of their control like starting position and a course that's not conducive to passing. If they would beat the opponent head to head 10/10 times I don't think not working hard enough is the sole reason.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Fair enough.

FWIW, generally speaking most types of racing I've done have been pretty damn civil. Most people realize that, other than protecting their wheel through the inside of a turn, there's no reason to get physical at any point during a race. Road, XC, CX, even Super D back in the day when that was still a thing. I've never thrown an elbow at anyone, the number of times I've seen intentional contact made in over a decade of racing can be counted on one hand.

And, if that's how the courses are, that just sucks for everyone. Although, like Aaron Gwin's secret lines, finding passing opportunities is something that people can develop over time. A guy I mentioned up-thread, Luke Vrouwenvelder, was a master of this when I raced against him a couple years back when I was in grad school. He'd race with all of us peons for a lap, getting a good look at the course, then at some point he'd start passing people in places that most people wouldn't think of using. But, that guy can do things on a hardtail and Conti RaceKing's that most people couldn't do on DH tires.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> This.
> 
> When people complain about "roadies" beating them in races, I have to ask:
> 
> ...


Those "competent" roadies in races might have inferior technical skills, but overall they are heaps superior than their mtb counterparts.

As a mountain biker that ocasionally practices road cycling it hurts me to accept that, but it's the blunt truth.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

This isn’t a discussion of fast roadies vs mTBer with lower power and better skills.

Fact is, if you go back and watch the race, Langvad was barely moving at times strategically. She was blocking lines when riders were riding climbs. 

This isn’t “racing”. She was off the bike so much that it was embarrassing. Then she hooked batty, not the other way around, after she already screwed batty on some well earned passes in the roots that she worked her ass off for. 

If it weren’t for Langvad, this would have been Battys first win quite possibly. 

GTFO Here if you want to defend these tactics. It says something about you as a racer and YOUR skills. 

We aren’t talking about someone who didn’t go hard enough in the singletrack, we are talking about the top 5 of the field here. 

If we are talking about experiences about local races, that’s a different thread. I take full responsibility for not getting around people in my group before singletrack if I have a slow start. Some tracks do mnot allow you sprint to get to the singletrack. Some courses will always be this way. 


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Absalon wasn't as technically proficient as Schurter. He'd do his best to be ahead of Schurter before decisive technical sections to prevent Schurter from riding away.

Is this somehow wrong in your book?

Hell, a couple years back at the WC in Germany, Fabian Giger was far worse than either of them and was lighting it up on the climbs and making sure he was ahead of them on the descents so they couldn't get away. I don't think either of them begrudged him racing to his strengths.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

New wheel change challenge up...


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> Absalon wasn't as technically proficient as Schurter. He'd do his best to be ahead of Schurter before decisive technical sections to prevent Schurter from riding away.
> 
> Is this somehow wrong in your book?
> 
> Hell, a couple years back at the WC in Germany, Fabian Giger was far worse than either of them and was lighting it up on the climbs and making sure he was ahead of them on the descents so they couldn't get away. I don't think either of them begrudged him racing to his strengths.


Were either of them getting into the single track 1st then walking? I have no issue getting in front and being a little slower, but to get into the front and walk is a little over the top.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

FJSnoozer said:


> This isn't a discussion of fast roadies vs mTBer with lower power and better skills.
> 
> Fact is, if you go back and watch the race, Langvad was barely moving at times strategically. She was blocking lines when riders were riding climbs.
> 
> This isn't "racing". She was off the bike so much that it was embarrassing. Then she hooked batty, not the other way around, after she already screwed batty on some well earned passes in the roots that she worked her ass off for.


You need to get your facts straight, riders weren't racing to see who would walk/run faster up the climb, they were racing to be first to the downhill.

Just so you know, as it seems you either didn't watch the entire races or didn't pay much attention, all riders including Langvad, Batty and the men's field were walking/running certain sections. If you want to blame someone for walking/running blame the organizers with their designed track. The reason there isn't a rule that walkers must yield mounted riders is that is hard to enforce, that is why the track must be designed to punish a rider that walks/runs, which wasn't the case here.



FJSnoozer said:


> If it weren't for Langvad, this would have been Battys first win quite possibly.


The thing is if Langvad hadn't puncture, Batty wouldn't even be second place.

Langvad and Neff were the strongest riders that day, not sure how you can see otherwise.



FJSnoozer said:


> GTFO Here if you want to defend these tactics. It says something about you as a racer and YOUR skills.


Way to support your arguments, someone challenges your opinion and you throw a man's trantrum. Consider giving it some thought to your sentences and maybe you can then explain us how those tactics are unnaceptable, because at it is now there was nothing illegal.

I'm a fan of Batty, but you seem to be just a fanatic of her.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

TDLover said:


> Langvad and Neff were the strongest riders that day, not sure how you can see otherwise.


Fitness wise yes. But just as say there is the tactical side on the road, the technical side is just as critical in the dirt and Langvad was way behind the curve in that aspect.

There were numerous times she dismounted when others were riding and she stopped their progress riding. As early as the start loop I was questioning whether this was a WC Bike race or a rooty 5K based upon Langvad running.



TDLover said:


> I'm a fan of Batty, but you seem to be just a fanatic of her.


Fan of Emily but more a fan of common sense and observation and in this instance, we had one of the greatest single WC races to date during which Langvad' lack of technical skill and ability was highlighted for all to see.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Passive aggressive trail blocking tactics can be dealt with with passive aggressive overtaking tactics

If you block in the technical sections, be prepared to be pestered until you make a big mistake

ps; that custom of not passing slower riders in front of you until it is safe to do so, does not apply at the Elite level (otherwise the start loop and every sprint to next bottleneck would be just a parade)


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Sure Langvad isn't the best technical rider but she is probably one of the strongest women out there.
The bottom line is that it is not only practice that makes you a good descender but lots of other things you have no control over. Some are going to be clearly better than others regardless of the amount of practice.

Langvad pulled Kate Courtney and most of the other top teams around South Africa during the Cape Epic and I didn't see her whining about that!

Cross country courses are getting tougher and tougher and it is no longer like the cross country courses back in the day.

Batty wouldn't have won regardless of Langvad if Neff did not have her flats. If Batty was so good why couldn't she get in front of Langvad before the climbs?

There are riders out there clearly better than Batty and that includes Belamonia, Rissveds and others.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

The camera missed a lot of what was going on in that single track. Nobody was riding it well, every single rider I saw had at least three dismounts in a 200m section. It was slow enough and janky enough that someone who committed to running and ran quickly was just as fast or faster then someone who was attempting to ride it.

The reality is if Annika had moved and let Emily by, Annika would have been held up by Emily when she had to dismount for that climb or corner that she couldn't make.

The issue is the course was not constructed well enough to hold up to heavy rain under race conditions. Good XC courses should be main ridable in all conditions, when the best in the world have to run there is any issue with the course.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

LMN said:


> The camera missed a lot of what was going on in that single track. Nobody was riding it well, every single rider I saw had at least three dismounts in a 200m section. It was slow enough and janky enough that someone who committed to running and ran quickly was just as fast or faster then someone who was attempting to ride it.
> 
> The reality is if Annika had moved and let Emily by, Annika would have been held up by Emily when she had to dismount for that climb or corner that she couldn't make.
> 
> The issue is the course was not constructed well enough to hold up to heavy rain under race conditions. Good XC courses should be main ridable in all conditions, when the best in the world have to run there is any issue with the course.


Agree. Unrideable climbs spoil the descents because riders can't get on and clipped so they walk down. If the climbs were all rideable there wouldn't have been so much congestion on the downs.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Haggis said:


> Agree. Unrideable climbs spoil the descents because riders can't get on and clipped so they walk down. If the climbs were all rideable there wouldn't have been so much congestion on the downs.


The crazy thing is they could have easily removed the top climb that was unrideable. It would have taken 2 minutes to fix it.

There was a lot of issues with the course over the week.

The "Shimano" jump that looked really lame on TV was originally a massive drop (6 feet at least) into big step up. It wasn't a hard feature (Annika was riding it in training) but it was a dangerous one. But that wasn't as bad one of the fire road descents.

The first descent on the course was straight down this terrifyingly loose fire road that they had put logs with 1-2 drops on every 10 feet. At full speed you were just about airing from drop to drop. One of those sections that when you rode it you knew that someone was going to die. Fortunately the UCI went and pulled half the logs out of it.

And to top it off one of the flyer overs originally had a really high entry speed. One of the Canadian guys hit it first lap in training and complete aired it to flat. I thought he was dead but fortunately he walked away. Again, fortunately the UCI re-taped it to slow down the entrance speed.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

mik_git said:


> Also that was a pretty big crowd
> 
> And as much as I'm a fan of the fans and the cheering, not a fan of the chainsaws, I wonder if it bugs the competitors, or urges them on?


 I think the chainsaws have to go home. If I set up to watch a race and a drunk dude, they are usually drunk, started running a smoky, screaming 2 stroke beside me I would punch him in the throat. It isn't a monster truck race. bring your bells and whistles but leave the engines at home.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

rlee said:


> I think the chainsaws have to go home. If I set up to watch a race and a drunk dude, they are usually drunk, started running a smoky, screaming 2 stroke beside me I would punch him in the throat. It isn't a monster truck race. bring your bells and whistles but leave the engines at home.


Limit them to the DH race. They really have no relevance outside of there.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Chainsaws = vuvuzelas = throat punch


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

LMN said:


> The crazy thing is they could have easily removed the top climb that was unrideable. It would have taken 2 minutes to fix it.
> 
> There was a lot of issues with the course over the week.
> 
> ...


And yet most, if not all of those features would have been rideable if the course was dry. I helped build a course for a UCI event earlier this year and we would have had similar issues if it had rained on the day. (Sam Gaze turned up a week early and was practicing on the course on his full suspension bike when it was wet and was not happy with the steeps and tech. He and Anton blew through the dry course on race day on their hardtails). It's a real dilemma for a course designer, making the course challenging but rideable in all conditions. I don't mind seeing racers walking the downs, as long as they are rideable for the more skilled and not outright dangerous. It should be about more than just fitness.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Flashbacks of Annefleur Kalvenhaar at the XCE in Meribel



LMN said:


> And to top it off one of the flyer overs originally had a really high entry speed. One of the Canadian guys hit it first lap in training and complete aired it to flat. I thought he was dead but fortunately he walked away. Again, fortunately the UCI re-taped it to slow down the entrance speed.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

MattMay said:


> Red Bull just added the world championships. Weird thing is, I have the NBC Soorts Gold cycling package and they don't list it (yet).


got a link, i cant find it for looking!


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

mik_git said:


> got a link, i cant find it for looking!


Try this...

UCI MTB World Championship 
https://www.redbull.tv/live/AP-1WNUU4YX92111/uci-mtb-world-championship

Not sure if it'll work as I copied the link via the iOS app.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

^ works fine at least for U.S.

@mik_git if that doesn't for some reason this may...straight off the Red Bull TV site https://www.redbull.com/us-en/events/uci-mtb-world-championships

Maybe since you're Aussie it doesn't show up for some reason? Dunno


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

richwolf said:


> Sure Langvad isn't the best technical rider but she is probably one of the strongest women out there.
> The bottom line is that it is not only practice that makes you a good descender but lots of other things you have no control over. Some are going to be clearly better than others regardless of the amount of practice.


So let me venture a wild idea: Langvad should gear up on a light trail bike with 120mm of suspension, 2.35 tires, and ride away with the World Cup series win (which she would have done merely by not flatting)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> So let me venture a wild idea: Langvad should gear up on a light trail bike with 120mm of suspension, 2.35 tires, and ride away with the World Cup series win (which she would have done merely by not flatting)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The same could be said for Neff.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

zgxtreme said:


> Try this...
> 
> UCI MTB World Championship
> https://www.redbull.tv/live/AP-1WNUU4YX92111/uci-mtb-world-championship
> ...


yep thT QORK treat thanks



MattMay said:


> ^ works fine at least for U.S.
> 
> @mik_git if that doesn't for some reason this may...straight off the Red Bull TV site https://www.redbull.com/us-en/events/uci-mtb-world-championships
> 
> Maybe since you're Aussie it doesn't show up for some reason? Dunno


No idea, but th link you and ZGX provided seem to work, o thanks...

I have to say, so thankful for redbull for bring the races to us , for free, heck I'd pay, bu geez the redbull tv website (I use on ps4, pc and occasionally on phone) is truly a terrible experience for browsing...it used to be far better.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> So let me venture a wild idea: Langvad should gear up on a light trail bike with 120mm of suspension, 2.35 tires, and ride away with the World Cup series win (which she would have done merely by not flatting)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


First you are assuming that she would be able to climb with the leaders on a light trail bike, which based on my experience with light trail bikes, is highly unlikely.

But never mind that. Why is that we always try fix a problem in mountain biking with equipement? Langvad needs to allocate some, perhaps a significant amount, of training time to technical skills. There is no equipment choice that is going to allow her to match Jolanda on technical descents. Jolanda has set a really high bar and the rest of the field is going to have to put in the work to catch up.

Watching the amount of work Jolanda put into those descents in training was eye opening. On the Wednesday before the race she spent at least 4hrs dialling in all the lines. Everyone else did 3 laps, sessioned a couple sections and then went home and recovered.

The Swiss cycling federation has done an amazing job of developing well rounded riders absolutely superior technical skills. They train skills all winter, as a nation they are far ahead of any other. The USA does a little bit of work with Shaums March but not enough, and the Canadian federation is definately lacking in skill development, and it shows.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

LMN said:


> Why is that we always try fix a problem in mountain biking with equipement? Langvad needs to allocate some, perhaps a significant amount, of training time to technical skills. There is no equipment choice that is going to allow her to match Jolanda on technical descents. Jolanda has set a really high bar and the rest of the field is going to have to put in the work to catch up.
> 
> Watching the amount of work Jolanda put into those descents in training was eye opening. On the Wednesday before the race she spent at least 4hrs dialling in all the lines. Everyone else did 3 laps, sessioned a couple sections and then went home and recovered.
> 
> The Swiss cycling federation has done an amazing job of developing well rounded riders absolutely superior technical skills. They train skills all winter, as a nation they are far ahead of any other. The USA does a little bit of work with Shaums March but not enough, and the Canadian federation is definately lacking in skill development, and it shows.


I watched Rob's interview of Yolanda earlier this year and was blown away at the level of off-bike prep she does. When I watch her descend, that interview plays over and over in my head. Annika.... time to work on your weaknesses.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

MattMay said:


> Speaking of enduro, what's really annoying is when you're in a pro race, catch the guy in front of you and he refuses to yield even a few inches to let a clearly superior rider pass. That move loses races for riders.


But that's completely different. Ok I admit I was racing mtb just for fun, and my racing background is in xc skiing, but principles I would say are same in xc skiing and in mtb.
On individual start races (that would be enduro as far as I know), you move when you get caught, as, if you are get caught by guy starting behind you, means you are slower rider and you move. 
On mass start races (that would be XCO), you don't need to move to anyone. Anyone behind you is slower rider/skier then you, otherwise he/she wouldn't be behind you. So there's absolutely no need to move to anyone who is behind you. And like it or not, there's whole bunch of tactics in play when it comes to racing. If you know you are slower on downhills or on uphills, you take care, you are infront of that section, where you think you are slower, so racers behind you, need to adapt to your pace (if there's not much options to overtake), and you don't lose time that you would otherwise.
I have checked that video of Batty grabbing Langvard's hand quite few times, and there's nothing but Batty trying to grab Langvard to avoid her overtaking. There's no obstacles to maker her crash, after/during her hand grab, she continued her line without any problems. I believe it's a bit biased for most of you as Batty is from your side of ocean and Langvard is not, but if it would be opposite way, I'm sure everyone would be yelling out loud how unfair and unsportsman that is. And it really is... just not from Langvard's side but from Batty's side. And everyone trying to find excuse and blame Langvard for this, think again.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Sometimes folks try to transpose their local racing setting to world cup level, and it doesn't work. 
Due to factors of mass start with starting lines merged across categories, or starts with e.g. 1 minute space so it is not clear who wants to overtake you, but the main factor is that local racing is mostly, "fair play" or better said "let the faster rider of the section through".

And that is understandable for most people, as we're paying for our hobby, doing it for kicks. I was in a race 1y ago, and a rider clearly stronger on a downhill section was hesitating to let me go at the uphill part, I was clearly stronger and didn't want to push out shoulder wise.
He finally "succumbed", but asked just beforehand - will you let me go on the downhill? I answered "sure" and I meant it (3min downhill led to the finish straight). And I would have if I needed to.

Professional racing, where every millisecond or extra effort counts, where racing tactics are there for a purpose as you NEED to win or place good as a professional athlete, to support yourself and your family, is a completely different story.
Rider with a weakness on a downhill and a stronger engine will always try to get to the hilltop first and (not "intentionally", but by advantage/weakness design) block others, there aren't many more natural things out there in racing but to exploit your advantages, and minimize others, to the maximum.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

primoz said:


> On individual start races (that would be enduro as far as I know), you move when you get caught, as, if you are get caught by guy starting behind you, means you are slower rider and you move.


Exactly. Agree. And when they don't (move) when they're caught it's REALLY annoying is all I was saying. Definitely different.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Annika would have probably won the title if she wouldn't have been injured in that one crash and had to miss that race.

To those people on Annika's case about not being a "good enough" descender and that she should work and work and work on it then you could also say that the other ladies are not good enough short trackers and they should work and work and work at it! Or that they can't climb like Annika so they should work and work and work on it.
It seems the armchair quarterbacks get a lot more upset about things than the pro racers do.


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

FJSnoozer said:


> ... 4. When are these companies going to come up with a quicklock version or license Manitous Q loc axle system. Axles can be inserted and locked in 2-3 seconds. with no tool. It amazes me that no one has done this or created it vs using the DT rear axle.


I don't think that the 2019 Scalpels have the same Mavic SpeedRelease dropout/axle design that the FSi's have - but that design seems like it would allow rapid rear wheel changes. Maybe not a stiff enough design for a FS bike?

After forgetting to turn on my derailleur clutch in my last race - and dropping my chain twice before I realized it... it makes me wonder if it could have been that simple of a reason for Kerschbaumer's woes. It seemed to me that he was for sure gonna reel Nino in before the second time he had an issue.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Clearly Neff is the strongest descender in XC world cup circuit. She is a strong climber, but not the strongest. She is darn good on technical climbs, but clearly does not have the power or fitness of some of the others. However like all competitor she uses her strengths to create gaps and works hard to protect against her weaknesses. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Racing at these levels means working these out to your best advantage. Clearly Annika planned to walk these sections. Sure not as pretty to watch, but it protected her from a race ending crash and despite being a weakness she was able to use her strengths to compensate. Racing is not about clearing the entire trail or about being the first one to the top of a climb. It about where you finish at race end. 


I will say as a spectator on TV that women's race was outstanding. You never knew what was going to happen because as soon as you though you knew something changed. Bad luck combined with different skillsets meant it always up for grabs. The Men's race was boring comparatively because it was more ordered. The women were fighting a war out there and I like that Batty pushed back a bit when Annika overlapped bars with her. Looked like Annika passed and tried pinch Batty and she said "no you are not going to push your way around" Liked the fire. I also liked that they did not crash. Fighting for position is find, but taking a ride down is not. So pushed the edge a bit. And remember there is so much we can't see on TV too.


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

LMN said:


> First you are assuming that she would be able to climb with the leaders on a light trail bike, which based on my experience with light trail bikes, is highly unlikely.
> 
> But never mind that. Why is that we always try fix a problem in mountain biking with equipement? .


Agreed, a light train bike wouldn't be worthwhile. But spending some serious time working on confidence and comfort in tech sections and the wet would pay huge rewards for her... It's not like she sucks! and is so amazingly strong on other sections.

I really think the "wet" played a huge roll, as we've seen her do significantly better on other courses with technical sections. It's difficult to train on wet technical trails, combine that with the fact racing on them at the WC level has been increasingly rare.

Now, I think she might actually benefit from something like a 120mm fork on her Epic (like the new Epic Evo series). Heck, I put a new SC34 on my S-works Epic and it's amazing what a difference it makes. Although, for me it's more about the increase in lateral stiffness/steering precision than slacker HTA. Of course RS is a sponsor for the Specialize team so they would have to come up with a customized WC level SID or something. That way the bike would still rip the climbs while giving her some added capabilities/confidence.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Annika was running Fast Track tires, to me, that was her biggest error. Neff is on another level for tech and certainly the DH sections, but she is also smart enough to run MUD tires during wet races. I am amazed Annika & Specialized have not figured that out. Nothing else would have benefited her more, not a different fork or bike... well unless she borrowed Absalon's ebike.


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

I'm with you on tire selection, at least for the front. Given the level of muck, a Fast Trak wouldn't have been my first choice (even in the 2.3). The Ground Control isn't a great mud tire, but would have given some better control up front. FT rear still makes a lot of sense. 

Not just for that big descent either, but the log drops and rocks at the bottom. I think she actually lost more time down there than running the descent. She would ride around the tall mound with the log drop (b line was wet and sketch as hell too), then have zero momentum for the rocks. A bit more confident front tire and a slightly larger volume FT in the back could have been a valid choice. 

I'm sure she went with what she felt would give her the best outcome though. Just not sure if that turned out to be the case.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

And almost all the D/H guys were using dry tyres in the wet because wet tyres would have been useless in the rocks and roots.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

richwolf said:


> Annika would have probably won the title if she wouldn't have been injured in that one crash and had to miss that race.
> 
> To those people on Annika's case about not being a "good enough" descender and that she should work and work and work on it then you could also say that the other ladies are not good enough short trackers and they should work and work and work at it! Or that they can't climb like Annika so they should work and work and work on it.
> It seems the armchair quarterbacks get a lot more upset about things than the pro racers do.


You can't possibly be saying that people need to "just make more power" (match a 290 + power at 140 pounds) as a response to her practicing some technical skills.

If she has time to screw around on an ebike and make a commercial for social media about how it's a great use of her time on recovery days, she can spend a little time sessioning lines and pushing her comfort zone with some skilled technical riders.

She wasn't just walking down lines, she was walking up, and she was blocking riders who were clearing those lines using her bike to block space she wasn't occupying.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

FJSnoozer said:


> You can't possibly be saying that people need to "just make more power" (match a 290 + power at 140 pounds) as a response to her practicing some technical skills.
> 
> If she has time to screw around on an ebike and make a commercial for social media about how it's a great use of her time on recovery days, she can spend a little time sessioning lines and pushing her comfort zone with some skilled technical riders.
> 
> ...


Making commercials is part of a pro riders job too. There is a whole lot more to it than just riding a bike.

Anyhow looking forward to watching the xc relay coming up soon. 
"UCI will be showing the XC Relay live on Wedneday 5 September. It will also live stream the U23 Men's and Women's XCO championships on Friday 7 September. Those three events can be watched on the UCI YouTube channel."

Hopefully not geoblocked. Go kiwis!


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

FJSnoozer said:


> If she has time to screw around on an ebike and make a commercial for social media about how it's a great use of her time on recovery days


I bet Arnold spends his spare time playing the Mobile Strike video game too...

I doubt she is spending "spare time" playing on an eBike. When she is recovering she is likely on a couch watching TV or reading a book. If she is doing a recovery ride, she shouldn't be doing tech work, because that wouldn't be a recovery ride.

And as I know what it is like to have a full time job, and train 20-25 hours a week (21.5 hours on average the last 4), I am sure she isn't playing around on an eBike for fun or recovery. She is doing it to earn her paycheck, which is what sponsorship is, selling yourself out to make a living doing what you love. I'd tell you the virtues or riding an eBike too if someone paid me enough.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

You guys are right. Its highly acceptable for her to walk(not even run) her bike for an entire section and strategically block other riders on camera. 

There is probably no room in her training schedule for her to practice technical skills.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

Just to break up the monotony of ripping on Annika (what did that woman ever do to piss so many people off?), I finally got to watch the XCO Men's replay. After listening to the broadcasters for two hours, I can't help but say Nino's last name as Shya - tah! 
(Probably Annika started it and stuff....) 

I know you don't care...back to arguing...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Anybody watch the relay today?

Some good laps, some weak laps.

Men: Quick laps: Nino, Maxine Marrot.
Mediocre lap: MVPD

Women:
Fastest lap: EIBL Ronja, she actually caught and passed Jolanda. Wow.
Annika had the second fastest lap followed by Courtney.

Slow laps: Jolanda and Pauline.

Not that relay laps mean a lot. Ironically people often blow up spectacularly in a relay lap and often end up riding slower then race pace.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

Overall I really enjoy the back and forth action of the relay. Wish it was part of every WC weekend.

I missed the first lap or so, but caught the rest. Kerschbaumer looks like he had a fast time. A few U23 men also went really fast, (like they usually do for one lap). I was really surprised when Eibl caught Neff, I'm sure Neff was too. Nino was fast, like we knew he would be, but I'm still more impressed with the U23 times. 

MVDP - I don't follow CX racing much, does he basically make one huge attack at some point to get away from the field most races, like he has done late in short track races?

Sounds like there might be some rain over the next couple days. Should be some awesome races.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

kevbikemad said:


> MVDP - I don't follow CX racing much, does he basically make one huge attack at some point to get away from the field most races, like he has done late in short track races?


He makes a huge attack off the line and proceeds to put time on everyone for the whole hour. Except in the World Championship race.

And compared to what happens in your average crit or road stage, what happened between Emily and Annika was not worth mentioning. And why do people keep ignoring LMN's on course assessment of how being off the bike on certain sections uphill might well have been faster? I sure didn't see Annika as blocking when pushing uphill off the bike -- maybe once or twice she got in the way when off the bike on the descent, but nothing severe.


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

The relay was exciting, more so than short track because you don't know what to expect (other than that the lead will change multiple times). 

This event wouldn't work at World Cups because the teams don't have the right structure.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

*Team Relay Lap Times*



J-Flo said:


> The relay was exciting, more so than short track because you don't know what to expect (other than that the lead will change multiple times).
> 
> This event wouldn't work at World Cups because the teams don't have the right structure.


Agreed, it was very interesting. I don't think we can read anything into the lap times, but still make for good reading. Kershbaumer was fastest by far, while Nino's times were nothing special (although he did slow down for celebration at very end).

Some of the Juniors / U23 were very quick, but then again their motivation levels would be at 101%
UCI MTB WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS 2018 | Tissot Timing


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

madfella said:


> Agreed, it was very interesting. I don't think we can read anything into the lap times, but still make for good reading. Kershbaumer was fastest by far, while Nino's times were nothing special (although he did slow down for celebration at very end).
> 
> Some of the Juniors / U23 were very quick, but then again their motivation levels would be at 101%
> UCI MTB WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS 2018 | Tissot Timing


The people who raced the opening lap had a slightly different course, they missed a bit of single track climbing. 1st lap times cannot really be compared.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LMN said:


> The people who raced the opening lap had a slightly different course, they missed a bit of single track climbing. 1st lap times cannot really be compared.


I missed the first lap. This makes more sense for lap times.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Ptor said:


> And why do people keep ignoring LMN's on course assessment of how being off the bike on certain sections uphill might well have been faster?


I did a race at Bonelli on a US Cup weekend (one of my first C1 races though) where it was faster to run up the rocky climb. I rode up it the first lap (which was difficult in traffic). On the second lap, someone ahead of me got hung up and stopped me in my tracks, forcing me off the bike. At that same moment, another guy came running by me and about 5 others. So on the last lap I bailed off right at the hard part without even attempting to climb and passed a few people who were still on bike.

So yeah, sometimes being off the bike is faster.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Today's XC race bike is yesterday's DH racer, and today's trail bike is tomorrow's race bike. Despite what you said, you do realize this to be the case now, LMN. Shall I repost a quote of yours? 

No need to rehash the same old arguments from the 26x1.9" era. We know that new bike tech DOES make a difference. Not individual parts, but collectively.

I'm Neff's biggest fan and I have seen the Swiss cross training videos, it's magnificent. Didn't stop Kulhavy the Terminator from dominating a couple of years until the field caught up with his bike choice though.

Perhaps the UCI will intervene and limit travel and tire width, like cyclocross. Then we can sit around debating the subtle differences in file treads... 



LMN said:


> First you are assuming that she would be able to climb with the leaders on a light trail bike, which based on my experience with light trail bikes, is highly unlikely.
> 
> But never mind that. Why is that we always try fix a problem in mountain biking with equipement? Langvad needs to allocate some, perhaps a significant amount, of training time to technical skills. There is no equipment choice that is going to allow her to match Jolanda on technical descents. Jolanda has set a really high bar and the rest of the field is going to have to put in the work to catch up.
> 
> ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Does anyone know if there is a live feed or replay available in the US of the under 23 XC races??
We know of a girl competing in it.

I found this but don't know if it will work or not. 
https://www.srf.ch/sport/resultcenter/generic?eventId=411866


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

richwolf said:


> Does anyone know if there is a live feed or replay available in the US of the under 23 XC races??
> We know of a girl competing in it.
> 
> I found this but don't know if it will work or not.
> https://www.srf.ch/sport/resultcenter/generic?eventId=411866


Tried the UCI channel?


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

The U23 races are on Friday, here's the live link to the UCI YouTube live stream


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

richwolf said:


> Does anyone know if there is a live feed or replay available in the US of the under 23 XC races??
> We know of a girl competing in it.
> 
> I found this but don't know if it will work or not.
> https://www.srf.ch/sport/resultcenter/generic?eventId=411866


SRF (Swiss Radio Television) have a free App you can watch it on, called SRF Sport. Obviously its in German though.


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

The Swiss TV people are out in force here. It’s a mad scene in the best way! Our “sports” channels in the US would rather show a replay of a poker tournament though, apparently. 


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

By the way, the Lenzerheide course makes a walk mandatory on the first lap for most of the field. The race starts with the one big climb (on pavement during the opening lap, which quickly narrows from 8-wide to 5-wide then 3-4-wide gravel) then straight to a rooty technical descent that quickly becomes steep double track that funnels to a narrow one-person hairpin left turn. Only the first 20-25 so riders will make it through the bottleneck before it bogs down. Everyone else will have to dismount and walk on the first lap, losing buckets of time and spreading out the field. It seems like a demoralizing way to start a race and presents a near-insurmountable obstacle to the majority of racers starting behind the front 4 rows. 

Overall the course is terrific and would be a blast to ride (even though some parts of it look too scary to me). But this aspect of it makes surprise less likely and heavily rewards the pre-race favorites with the points to get into one of the front rows. There is too much traffic and not enough width in the course on the first climb to make much passing a possibility, no matter who is in what kind of form. In my view this is an argument for more of a wide-open start loop to give the fastest riders a chance to move up before the first bottleneck. 


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## scottg (Mar 30, 2004)

Will the Elite Men's and Women's races be available in Canada on Redbull, or geoblocked like last year?


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## NATO5 (Dec 28, 2016)

Not sure about what's officially on in Canada. I had seen a categorized list of what was being shown by geo somewhere on Twitter but can't seem to find it. I'll keep looking.

I'm in the US so all of the events so far have been technically blocked, but I found a website proxy so I've been able to watch the UCI YouTube feed.

I was just able to throw the live YouTube link the UCI was sharing in a proxy (http://croxyproxy.com/ happens to be the one I'm using, though I just did a quick Google search so there are other options) and I've been able to stream. Quality won't be the highest but it's doable.

Blevins had a fantastic ride in U23 by the way this morning!


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

Great ride by Hatherly and Blevins. Good to see a US man towards the top again. 

Swiss and French teams may be a little bit concerned about their future in the men's xco? Certainly a shock for them.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

Interesting fact; First time a New Zealander has not won this race since 2014


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

scottg said:


> Will the Elite Men's and Women's races be available in Canada on Redbull, or geoblocked like last year?


Have you tried the Hola VPN extension in Chrome? That's worked for me in other cases (other sites) where streams have been geographically restricted.

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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

Does anyone have a link to the team relay? I can only find the UCI edit which is really short and I don't see it on redbull.tv?

Thanks!


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## jarhead22 (Feb 26, 2014)

rockyuphill said:


> The U23 races are on Friday, here's the live link to the UCI YouTube live stream


any links for the u23 men


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Times are tightening up... could be a great second half for the women’s race. 

Also... good ride by Pendrel!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Kate is going to take this.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

LMN said:


> Kate is going to take this.


She's had a great year and is looking super strong and dialed in. Would be great seeing the USA in the rainbow stripes again.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

What a race by Haily Smith!! North American girls are crushing it.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Last lap... here we go!


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Push it Kate!!!!!!!!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Wow!! Did anybody see that one coming?


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

What a solid first year for Kate. She’s a fighter and showed a lot of heart this season. Great way to top off the year.


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## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

LMN said:


> Wow!! Did anybody see that one coming?


No! An amazing race and well deserved result!


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

What. Just. Happened. 

Man, the women have been so exciting to watch this year. Kate! Great job!


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## dwperry (Dec 8, 2013)

Holy **** kate courtney what a ride what a race

u s a u s a u s a u s a


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

An amazing effort to reel Langvad in twice and then sail on past, and just break Langvad, 47 sec gap in the end. Batty did well to finish 3rd, well ahead of Neff. And Haley Smith in 6th.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Holy crap how good was that!


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Solid video by Red Bull for the women... need to play that for the girls in NICA programs.


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## dwperry (Dec 8, 2013)

Apparently Neff and Wloszczowska wrote the video and put it together. Big kudos to them


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

dwperry said:


> Apparently Neff and Wloszczowska wrote the video and put it together. Big kudos to them


Agreed


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

For sure, that video was really good.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

dwperry said:


> Apparently Neff and Wloszczowska wrote the video and put it together. Big kudos to them


Both of them have class. They do great things for the sport.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

That was an amazing race for North American women. Catharine had a flat tire that knocked her out of the top ten, without that flat there was 4 north American's in the top 10. As it was there was 5 in the top 15.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

All right mens race about to start.

Who is the dark horse? Avancini?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Wow, Nino is absolutely flying.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

I don’t know how much Red Bull has been handed out at the venue... but this pace is freaking smokin.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Damm. Nino, what can you say. To do it at home, with all the pressure. Chapeau, Chapeau.


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

jarhead22 said:


> any links for the u23 men


Not available in my country (USA). I can't seem to find a USA legal video. 

https://www.redbull.com/int-en/tv/video/AP-1WNSQN2GN1W11/mens-xco-finals-en-lenzerheide

Oh there's one. Kind of hard to find on their app but I found it on their website.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

He still has that bit extra that other riders just can't match. His consistency is amazing.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

Great job Katie!!!!! Knew you could do it!

"Here! Comes! SHYA-TAH!!!!!"


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## mrbadwrench (Sep 13, 2016)

The battle in the womens side is insane this year. makes the mens kind of boring to watch. just imagine if risveds was in there battling too.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Super cool to see Courtney win it. She has had an amazing first year in Elite. I suspect Annika helped her grow a lot and really pushed her in the Cape Epic. Clearly there is a lot of mutual respect. Even though Annika slipped up, Kate was able to build and keep the separation on the last lap. Annika was Annika and you have to expect her to be a threat. Emily is so strong and very good in the technical bits. It seems Kate is too. Emily's description of the pain toward the end of the race was interesting. She seemed at peace in having left it ALL out there and had a great result. I've met her a couple times at Bonelli and she is always super friendly and down to earth. Yolanda was good as usual and she seems so nice and an amazing rider I was happy to see her win the overall World Cup. Haley Smith wow!!! Erin Huck too what a great ride. VERY solid result for Catharine too as well as Lea. 

As for the men, great see Howard Grotts with a 15th finish! VERY impressive and hopefully he will build on that confidence in 2019. Luke improved quite a bit over his start position too. Nino is unreal but so is his competition. It's gonna be a great 2019 season!


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

USA! 

Wow, I know these World Cup athletes are elite and all, but that root section Langvad stumbled on... pretty poor skills at any level, there's no hiding it.

Hope to see the American men focusing more on international competition too. Grotts has got some amazing watts/kg, but our homeboy Payson needs to find the funding to focus on the next level too.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> USA!
> 
> Wow, I know these World Cup athletes are elite and all, but that root section Langvad stumbled on... pretty poor skills at any level, there's no hiding it.
> 
> Hope to see the American men focusing more on international competition too. Grotts has got some amazing watts/kg, but our homeboy Payson needs to find the funding to focus on the next level too.


I'd argue Payson is a better stage and marathon racer than XCO racer.

Luke Vrouwenvelder is the #2 WC XCO guy in the US right now. Racing as a semi-privateer under his own flag with some funding from the Bear Devo manager.

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> USA!
> Wow, I know these World Cup athletes are elite and all, but that root section Langvad stumbled on... pretty poor skills at any level, there's no hiding it.


I think you are being a little harsh.

Fresh Annika has zero issues riding over those roots. But last lap of WC, just after you have launched a 30 sescond 500 watt attack there is not a lot of energy left to make any technical move. We have all been there racing, sections that are easy in practice we end up riding embarrassingly bad on race day.

I actually think it was a poor tactical decision that cost Annika the race. The attack she made on the last climbs was absolutely monsterous, it was also a long ways from finish. When you attack that hard, you have about 2 minutes before you start to pay for it. And she paid for it hard. I think even if she rode those roots clean Kate would have still easily have gotten her. I think if Annika had waited and launched attack closer to finish, or let it come to sprint she probably would have gotten Kate. Or not, Kate was absolutely motoring that last.


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

LMN said:


> I think you are being a little harsh.
> 
> Fresh Annika has zero issues riding over those roots.


Yeah, we saw her ride that section multiple times. She just looked exhausted at the end. All the top 3 women did. They all made mistakes. Did you see Batty's dismount--that cost her a lot of time too, the look of her trying to swing her leg back over the bike, I know that feeling. It's terrible. Courtney had the mistake on the MB rock too but that mistake only cost her 2-3 seconds.


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

What an awesome experience to see this all in person. I thought Annika was going to take it when she attacked on the last climb, but she had already been at the limit, that’s at the start of the lap and Kate had been riding so strong the entire race. What a way for Kate to win her first big elite race! Go look at the lap times — Kate dug deeper than anyone else and had more. Just freaking amazing and impressive. 

Now with Kate the first-ever USA World Champion woman, let’s hope she can help bring our sport some more of the recognition and exposure it deserves in our home country. 

Howard also had one of his best races of the year on the WC circuit. Keep in mind that he had to start in the 5th row and was stuck in traffic walking with everyone else on the first descent (the course could use a start loop - it goes straight from 8-wide into the 4-5 wide road climb and then into a 2-wide descent that quickly narrows to singletrack, so a huge backup on the first lap is an inevitable result of the bottleneck). That probably cost him 40 seconds and a couple spots. Would be great if he can race all the WCs next year and earn the points required for a better start position. 

This was an intensely physical course. I rode a lap and a half at my own slow speed see what it was like. Most of us mere mortals would simply be incapable of doing 7 laps at full tilt. It’s hard to overestimate the impact of the constant up and down pounding, the multiple long rooty sections, and the toughest descent right after the one big climb (when your heart rate is at its highest).


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

J-Flo said:


> Now with Kate the first-ever USA World Champion woman, let's hope she can help bring our sport some more of the recognition and exposure it deserves in our home country.


She's not the first. It's been so long it feels like it... but Dunlap won 17 years ago.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

zgxtreme said:


> but Dunlap won 17 years ago.


Plus Juli Furtado and Ruthie Matthes prior to Dunlap's win.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

^you beat me Matt


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Aw the moment when Kate gets hugs from Mom and Dad and Rob connects and calls it cuz he's sat down with them before!! 

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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Inspired racing all around. Definitely left me motivated and wanting to improve my performance and skills. 

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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

The race of both genders was great. 

I kinda feel for Neff, at the half of the first lap she already seemed not okay, her way of pedaling was almost like he had no explosive power and the race had just started. I did not follow her post race comments, but I think she was not at her 100% percent, not sure if overall fatigue or something wrong with her that day. Still, she managed to end in a good position, though. 

Batty doing a solid consistent race, albeit not enough for a win, perhaps next year. 

Kate has been quite strong all year and if anything she seemed to lack the endurance of longer races as she was accustomed to u23 races, but this time she really wrapped it nicely. Basically she evolved just as Jenny Rissveds did, hopefully next year we see Kate in a more dominant role through all the races. 

Langvad did an excellent race in my opinion, she was being so dominant until she fell somewhere, we did not see, but it was this incident that made her lost like 40 secs on Neff group and around 30 to Kate and Batty. Had this not happened I doubt they could have closed the gap. To all the naysayers saying how she shouldn't be struggling in those tree root sections clearly they are speaking non sense things, she clearly is technical proficient otherwise she wouldn't be winning races in World Cup tracks, she is not the best, but nonetheless proficient. 

I believe Langvad is capable of clearing all the a-lines in the WC circuit, but one thing is doing it fresh and other is doing it when you are depleted. If you haven't experienced what Langvad did, having a problem in a "minor" technical obstacle then you haven't ridden at your limits. It's embarrassing to make such mistakes, pro or not, but when you are exhausted there isn't much else you can do. 



In the men's race, Nino was quite dominant, I know how many dislike such athletes, but this course just fits him very well that it was gonna be hard to fight him, not to mention he had an immense crowd support. 

This course really favored explosive and strong riders, so its not surprise Nino and Langvad were the front runners, Kate also is great in this type of races so no surprises. Had this be a climbers track, I think then results may have been different in both races.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Luke Vrouwenvelder is the #2 WC XCO guy in the US right now. Racing as a semi-privateer under his own flag with some funding from the Bear Devo manager.


Do you really think Luke is better than Christopher Blevins, who got the silver medal in the WC XCO U23 Championship race? Blevins is sort of like a "lesser" MvdP. He's the U23 US National CX champion, wins road races, and has skills on the MTB.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Stonerider said:


> Do you really think Luke is better than Christopher Blevins, who got the silver medal in the WC XCO U23 Championship race? Blevins is sort of like a "lesser" MvdP. He's the U23 US National CX champion, wins road races, and has skills on the MTB.


Luke beat him by several minutes at XCO nationals. And, he's beaten Keegan Swenson in every WC or National Championship race he's contested in 2018.

Not sure what else to say about it.

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## mackdhagen (Jun 17, 2011)

LMN said:


> Damm. Nino, what can you say. To do it at home, with all the pressure. Chapeau, Chapeau.


Yep, he said in the post-race that he was not feeling 100% and to be constantly chaises down by the Italian was even more or a pressure cooker for him.. I thought the mens race was not going to be as good but was actually pretty close. Women's race was all time...i watched it twice! I thought anika muscled her way through the lines where as Courtney finessed it a bit more with her line selection...may've left a little more in the tank for the finish..


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

For what it's worth, Luke coaches Chris, so there's that.



Le Duke said:


> Luke beat him by several minutes at XCO nationals. And, he's beaten Keegan Swenson in every WC or National Championship race he's contested in 2018.
> 
> Not sure what else to say about it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

will VanderPoel ever win at MTB? He didn't look very happy :-(


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

ccm said:


> will VanderPoel ever win at MTB? He didn't look very happy :-(


He never looks happy after races. I think he will win if he sticks with it & makes it the priority, but he is doing so much racing over the year, I'd worry about burnout. The guy is obviously an absolute machine, but you have to ride pretty much flawlessly to win in the men's race. Has an interesting/effortless riding style. Just kinda sits there with minimal effort (until it's time to attack).

Women's racing is amazing right now, the number of contenders and their technical ability is great. Wish the season wasn't over, I'd wake up early to watch them race every weekend.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tommyrod74 said:


> For what it's worth, Luke coaches Chris, so there's that.


Interesting.

And, just so everyone is clear, I'm not trying to bag on anyone here. Just noting that, based on my subjective analysis of head to head results, Luke is just slightly ahead of Chris and Keegan. But, I think it's great that we have a bunch of young guys knocking on the door. There were a couple of really dark years there where we had Grotts and that was it for US men on the WC level. Hopefully these results get them all better funding, and even better finishes will come in the future.

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tommyrod74 said:


> For what it's worth, Luke coaches Chris, so there's that.


I thought he was working with Jim Miller. The same guy who coaches Kate and the same guy who coached Kristin Armstrong.

Comparing U23s to Elites is always tricky. Particularly when it comes to Olympic selection. At world cups we generally tend to look at lap times. Course conditions and traffic plays a big roll, but over time you get an idea.

This is why everyone was surprised that it took Kate as long as it did to get the Elite podium, last year she was often faster then top elite women.

Looking at the US guys:
If you look at the two riders: 
Lukas averaged around a 12:10 lap. With a really fast lap of 11:40 on his second lap.
Chris averaged around a 11:40 lap. With a fast lap of 11:22.
Howard averaged around a 11:45 lap with a fast lap of 11:22.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

LMN said:


> Comparing U23s to Elites is always tricky. Particularly when it comes to Olympic selection. At world cups we generally tend to look at lap times. Course conditions and traffic plays a big roll, but over time you get an idea.
> 
> This is why everyone was surprised that it took Kate as long as it did to get the Elite podium, last year she was often faster then top elite women.


I wonder how much of this is "riding" vs "racing". What I mean is lap times in Elite don't count. What counts is where you are on course and gaps to riders. Maybe U23 is more about riders just going around fast and Elite is more about tactics and positioning. Clearly you need to be fast in either case, but at the Elite level being fast is not enough I suspect.


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Interesting.
> 
> But, I think it's great that we have a bunch of young guys knocking on the door. There were a couple of really dark years there where we had Grotts and that was it for US men on the WC level. Hopefully these results get them all better funding, and even better finishes will come in the future.


Hear hear!

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

How much of the lap time differences would you attribute to starting grid position? Meaning, race traffic and the extreme efforts made to get ahead taking their toll? 

An example: 

IIRC, there were women in the top 20 who were behind by 1:30 or more by the middle of the second lap. 

Luke had an 8th row starting position, dropped into the 90s at one point, then passed 40+ people. 

I’m obviously no WC pro, but I know I run slower laps with more perceived effort when I have to pass people. 


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> How much of the lap time differences would you attribute to starting grid position? Meaning, race traffic and the extreme efforts made to get ahead taking their toll?
> 
> An example:
> 
> ...


Start position does have a significant affect on lap times. My experience is people with poor start position relative to their race pace usually have very slow early laps, and then their last laps are quite quick. Where as people who have good start position are usually very quick early on and then slow down as the race goes on.

In a way traffic is a forced pacing strategy, riding behind slow guys means that you can absolutely nuke it later in the race.

When I looked at the average lap time I didn't pay a lot of attention to first two laps. Although interesting Lukas had his fastest lap and highest lap ranking was his second.

Here are the lap analysis 
Elite men: http://www.tissottiming.com/File/0003100201010301FFFFFFFFFFFFFF05
U23 men: http://www.tissottiming.com/File/0003100201010201FFFFFFFFFFFFFF05


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Did the course improve or degrade over the weekend? I haven’t watched either men’s race yet. Only the senior women. 


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Did the course improve or degrade over the weekend? I haven't watched either men's race yet. Only the senior women.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The course was at it fastest for the elite men and elite women. It was still wet in the woods a bit slow for the U23 men. Keep in mind though that is one race. If I was going to make any conclusions about who is going faster I also look at MSA and La Bresse. (Although at La Bresse the course was drastically faster for the elite men).


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Did the course improve or degrade over the weekend? I haven't watched either men's race yet. Only the senior women.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One more thing to keep in mind in this discussion is that racing the elite category is mentally harder. Chris is racing for the win, he is finding that extra gear. Lukas is racing for 50th, hard to go really deep for 50th.

I coach Peter Disera who has been racing in around Lukas all year. Last year Peter was racing at the pointy end of the U23 field (3rd at Albstadt), he is faster this year then he was last year, but is finding it difficult to race at the same pace in the elite field. The extra lap, the greater depth, and poor start position make it tough for those first year elites.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> I'd argue Payson is a better stage and marathon racer than XCO racer.
> 
> Luke Vrouwenvelder is the #2 WC XCO guy in the US right now. Racing as a semi-privateer under his own flag with some funding from the Bear Devo manager.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good observation, but perhaps it's Payson's free-spirited attitude more than his aptitude. It would be terrific if we could go in with a more professional attitude to mountain bike racing.

One thing I've observed is that jet lag must play a part. In past generations Kabush and Wells fared much better on home soil (and we hold our own against the best at Leadville), so perhaps living in Europe is what's necessary for the USA to compete at the top level again.

Shout out to Jerry Dufour, an American working his way through the U23 ranks.

Also I'd love to see Stephen Hyde give pro XCO a try; we know he can compete with the best in cross. He's one of those freaks of nature that Friel talks about, that I was lucky enough to witness for myself.

"The highest VO2max is probably sitting on a couch somewhere"

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Shout out to Jerry Dufour, an American working his way through the U23 ranks.


Don't forget one of our forum member Sandyf, who is currently US U23 national champ.

Jet lag:
Interesting north american women have never had an issue competing on the international stage. If you look at WC overall finishes for women
#1 Canada: 7 gold, 8 silver, 7 bronze . 22 in total
#2 USA: 6 gold, 5 silver, 2 bronze. 13 in toal

Out of 84 possible WC overall medals, 35 have gone to north american's. And that is not including the medals by Katerina Nash, who is a US resident.

Trivia question:
Who was the last north american male to podium (top 5) at an elite UCI world cup.

Bonus: Who was the last north american in the top 10.


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## PlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

LMN said:


> Don't forget one of our forum member Sandyf, who is currently US U23 national champ.
> 
> Jet lag:
> Interesting north american women have never had an issue competing on the international stage. If you look at WC overall finishes for women
> ...


Hmmm... not sure on the first question, but how about Raphael Gagne's 6th place at Windham in 2015 for the bonus question?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Yep. That is the bonus.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Adam Craig?




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## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Adam Craig?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Was it Wells at Windham the year Stander (R.I.P.) won? If not Deaner or Craig would be my guess.

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

euro-trash said:


> Was it Wells at Windham the year Stander (R.I.P.) won? If not Deaner or Craig would be my guess.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Close, but it was after that. It was actually at a European world cup.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Adam Craig?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think Craig's last podium was at Bromont in 2008. A special race for me, that was Catharine's first win.

Easy to forget on just how good Craig was in his day.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Adam Craig is a master bike handler, it's almost playful for him; nose wheelies around switchbacks, that sort of thing. Maybe he didn't have the elite-level lungs and legs but it was refreshing to see an American so very good at this aspect.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Also I'd love to see Stephen Hyde give pro XCO a try; we know he can compete with the best in cross. He's one of those freaks of nature that Friel talks about, that I was lucky enough to witness for myself.


I thought he did make an attempt this year. I know I read an article some place about him planning make an Olympic run for XC.

I know he raced a couple of Canada cups, rode well but was a ways off the winner. And the winner didn't make the Canadian U23 worlds team.

He has a lot of work to do if he want to race XC.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> I think Craig's last podium was at Bromont in 2008. A special race for me, that was Catharine's first win.
> 
> Easy to forget on just how good Craig was in his day.


I rode with him in Hood River that fall.

I'll NEVER forget that. I'd love to see how he and Nino compared on technical descents.

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## mtb_phd (Jun 28, 2017)

LMN said:


> Don't forget one of our forum member Sandyf, who is currently US U23 national champ.
> 
> Jet lag:
> Interesting north american women have never had an issue competing on the international stage. If you look at WC overall finishes for women
> ...


Max Plaxton had a podium in Nove Mesto in 2013 :thumbsup: I think that is the most recent NA male podium?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

mtb_phd said:


> Max Plaxton had a podium in Nove Mesto in 2013 :thumbsup: I think that is the most recent NA male podium?


Winner, winner chicken dinner!


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

Regarding the course — the course conditions were good for U23 and perfect for elites. it rained late Thursday and was damp and cloudy Friday, so the course was still somewhat soft and roots a bit more slippery for the U23 races on Friday, but was perfect by Saturday. There were a few places with ruts by the end of the race but very little degradation of the course in general, and it was definitely a bit faster on Saturday. 

Regarding start position — faster guys who must start in the back actually have to use their brakes on the first climb to avoid crashing into slower racers blocking the way, then immediately rev back up to 600+ watts again. It’s a huge disadvantage, not to mention having to walk the first descent. I saw several guys having to do this in the U23 and elite race starts. That’s part of why the first couple lap times aren’t really comparable. 

The only way to overcome a bad start position is through a freakish sprint, the likes of MVdP or Peter Sagan at the Olympics (and Blevins can rev it up impressively too), but that has a cost that comes due in a long race. In the relay race on Wednesday, for example, Blevins screamed off the front into 1 or 2 position on the big climb - but he only had to do that one lap. Of course, the other way to overcome it is through accumulating enough points to advance to a better start position, which means competing in a lot of racers. 

Racers in the US have relatively few opportunities to collect UCI points, so it is not easy to move up even for fast guys unless they can make it to European or Canadian races. Having just returned from Lenzerheide (the first race I’ve attended in Europe — I was a spectator), I have to say that venue and scene (25,000+ MTB fans) beat the living crap out of anything I’ve seen before. Looking forward to MSA next year. Would love to see one-two of these in the Western US and Canada.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

J-Flo said:


> Would love to see one-two of these in the Western US and Canada.


Now this could be a topic unto itself but I'll pose the question here. With the growth of XC and the exposure courtesy of Red Bull first what are the odds of getting an event back in the states?

Secondly, where? Past venue? New venue?

I'd love to see some of the old venues from the 90's revisited but I also wonder how a location such as Bentonville/Bella Vista would do with their resources, the land available, and the MTB culture.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

zgxtreme said:


> Now this could be a topic unto itself but I'll pose the question here. With the growth of XC and the exposure courtesy of Red Bull first what are the odds of getting an event back in the states?
> 
> Secondly, where? Past venue? New venue?
> 
> I'd love to see some of the old venues from the 90's revisited but I also wonder how a location such as Bentonville/Bella Vista would do with their resources, the land available, and the MTB culture.


There might be a WC in the US next year..... The venue being some place other than Windham, date the weekend after worlds.

At least that is what I have heard through the grape vine.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

zgxtreme said:


> I'd love to see some of the old venues from the 90's revisited but I also wonder how a location such as Bentonville/Bella Vista would do with their resources, the land available, and the MTB culture.


I've been thinking about that due to the Mount Magazine rumors. While the runs there can be long, 5 miles all downhill, and have lots of vertical, I don't think that they will have enough vertical over a short enough distance to support a WC if DH is a part of it.

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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

LMN said:


> There might be a WC in the US next year..... The venue being some place other than Windham, date the weekend after worlds.
> 
> At least that is what I have heard through the grape vine.


I would like to see Bonelli on the World Cup calendar seeing as I live next to it. I'm not sure it's the caliber of the other WC venues but it is home to the 2028 Olympic XCO races so perhaps it will host a couple World Cup turns before the Olympic Games here in Los Angeles. Do you think Bonelli would be something the UCI would consider as a race location before the games? Clearly there will be upgrades needed to the venue and I suspect lots of technical features added for the Olympics. What do you guys think?


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Sho-Air spent a lot of money a couple of years ago live streaming the Bonelli race, and coaxing Nino out to compete (and Larissa Connors first Pro win I believe). I don't know if that will be the venue, but they proved they are willing to put in the work to get it and what it would look like. I actually like the Fontana course better. Though building a better climb instead of the road I think would be better (and harder, sigh).


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

My wife and I were discussing it. It would be nice if it was the week after or two weeks after Canada, that way everyone could be here and stay adjusted to the time difference. 

I would specifically hate to see it at Bonelli, as it is one of the most boring race venues I have ever watched on the screen. We have so many interesting locations that would be built or cut for this in the West and primarily the Rockies. 

Airport access is important, so that may make Utah a more likely venue. Of course lots of options in Colorado. 

I imagined Angel Fire for a hot minute. It also has a good ring to it. But thats a good hike from an airport. 

Bentonville is not really the ideal spot for that as using existing trail in the format they prefer would likely destroy their park. I am just envisioning how they could use Slaughter Pen. It would be doable, but in a "very creative" way. The heat and humidity would destroy people if it was too late in the year.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

FJSnoozer said:


> Bentonville is not really the ideal spot for that as using existing trail in the format they prefer would likely destroy their park. I am just envisioning how they could use Slaughter Pen. It would be doable, but in a "very creative" way. The heat and humidity would destroy people if it was too late in the year.


I don't think Bentonville proper would work. It would have to go east to Leatherwood or south to Kessler or yet to be built Magazine.

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## aohammer (Feb 2, 2006)

Bonelli Park can be built up pre-Olympics to include the east side rock garden and switchbacks, there are plenty of options. Of course addtl features can be built where it will please the crowd. Anxiously waiting for 2028 and before, if used for UCI XCO prior to that!

Bring it on..


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

They could have a great WC at either Park City or Deer Valley. Close to a major airport (35-40 minutes from SLC airport), Tons of hotels, condos, etc, hundreds of miles of good singletrack that can climb as much as organizers want, jeep roads at the resorts for start/finish line and pits. Lots of parking, other activities, infrastructure there. And lifts all over to get spectators anywhere they want to be. They used to have a NORBA race at Deer Valley 20 years ago and could easily hold a WC race there. Oh, and they hosted a little thing called the Winter Olympics a while back...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Any World Cup in the US is going to be a double. Any place that has held UCI DH and XCO is a possible location.


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

LMN said:


> Any World Cup in the US is going to be a double. Any place that has held UCI DH and XCO is a possible location.


A place in US that has held a UCI DH and XCO would be Windham. I think that would be the obvious location.

However, just outside the Denver metro area, Trestle Bike Park at Winter Park would be an interesting less obvious location. There an XCO course could be developed relatively easily and some of the trails at the bike park could be adapted for TV-friendly DH. Lots of people to attend the events, hoteling for the crews, large parking for their rigs, close to media sources, relatively easy to get to, especially from Europe (many direct flights into Denver), seems like it could be an interesting spot to hold a UCI event. Plus, it would be challenging for many of the athletes, as the altitude would be a factor. The UCI "circus" has many moving parts, it will be difficult to take on a new location outside of Windham.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

A major downer for USAC Nationals in past years has been high altitude at ski resorts. I don’t think it fits the aggressive style of modern XCO. The ski resort style of trail (up, up, up, down, down, down), is boring and favors those who live at altitude.

USAC has done its best to make amends recently and I’m sure glad they have. I understand the organizational dilemma with a “double” event; you’ve got to be around real mountains to host a DH race. No disrespect to the hills in Arkansas, I went to school up there, but I understand it’s not enough. 

On the other hand, the Rockies can be too much for some, myself included. They’re much taller than the Alps. I earned my Breck Epic belt buckle, but labored breathing before you even start racing is not my idea of a good time.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> A major downer for USAC Nationals in past years has been high altitude at ski resorts. I don't think it fits the aggressive style of modern XCO. The ski resort style of trail (up, up, up, down, down, down), is boring and favors those who live at altitude.
> 
> USAC has done its best to make amends recently and I'm sure glad they have. I understand the organizational dilemma with a "double" event; you've got to be around real mountains to host a DH race. No disrespect to the hills in Arkansas, I went to school up there, but I understand it's not enough.
> 
> ...


It's unlikely but I wouldn't say it's not enough. South of I-40 you get into terrain that can match some of the stops this year for total descent. Where I see the problem is can enough descent be found in a short enough run.

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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

*What's important in a venue?*



beastmaster said:


> A place in US that has held a UCI DH and XCO would be Windham. I think that would be the obvious location.
> 
> However, just outside the Denver metro area, Trestle Bike Park at Winter Park would be an interesting less obvious location. There an XCO course could be developed relatively easily and some of the trails at the bike park could be adapted for TV-friendly DH. Lots of people to attend the events, hoteling for the crews, large parking for their rigs, close to media sources, relatively easy to get to, especially from Europe (many direct flights into Denver), seems like it could be an interesting spot to hold a UCI event. Plus, it would be challenging for many of the athletes, as the altitude would be a factor. The UCI "circus" has many moving parts, it will be difficult to take on a new location outside of Windham.


Windham a couple years ago - wasn't the crowd numbers pretty lame? And that leads to the question; what are the most important factors for a venue to the UCI?
In my thoughts, public interest would be number one (or two) priority.
Followed by..?
Course suitability?
Ease of access for the teams?
Appearance on TV? (don't those Euro venues in the mountains look great!)
Service infrastructure?
Taking the sport "International"?


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

The ideal World Cup XCO/DH location has great technical trails and is accessible to international travel, lift-served, low to moderate elevation, and with lots of infrastructure and lodging at or near the course. In other words, Whistler is close to perfect. There are other places in N America but do they check all the boxes?

Our main problem out West is that the center of gravity of our sport in terms of popularity and competition is in Europe. It’s a long enough haul to get the Europeans to come out to Mont-Sainte-Anne, but the West Coast is a much harder sell at present given the low level of general exposure of the sport here (our hero Kate Courtney‘s stunning win at Worlds received only a 4-paragraph AP wire story in the Bay Area papers, and nothing on TV). We need to build from the ground up.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

One of the biggest qualifiers for a WC venue is whether or not they can get the sponsorship together to provide the minimum required prize money package for a UCI WC event. Then after that detail is taken care of you can get into the course design. It usually takes quite a while to put that sponsorship package together, and unless the sponsors have deep pockets, that kind of event sponsorship can be quite precarious. Although now that the global series is sponsored by Mercedes you'd think that the Mercedes dealers in the US could easily pony enough to sponsor a US stop of the tour (especially now that Mercedes has a pickup truck to market). 

Angel Fire was on the calendar in 2007 for the week after Mont Sainte Anne, but they had to cancel and the replacement North American event was put on by Gestev, the same organizer that does the Mont Sainte Anne event, so they ended up at St.Felicien about 3 hours north of Quebec City, it was an XCO only race. They put together quite a good race for a last minute replacement.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Angel Fire shouldn’t have ever been considered, let alone awarded a WC. 

It’s hours and hours from any kind of population center. The biggest one being Albuquerque. 

One of the ski resorts in CO could host a race. Big, supportive local population. Easy drive from DIA. Plenty of terrain to use. Lots of vertical. 


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

A lot of racers already come out to Sea Otter. So there is already incentive, I would think, to make a trip farther than just the east coast.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

rockyuphill said:


> Although now that the global series is sponsored by Mercedes you'd think that the Mercedes dealers in the US could easily pony enough to sponsor a US stop of the tour (especially now that Mercedes has a pickup truck to market).


It'd help if the X-Class was bound for the States. I'm a Ford guy and am waiting on the Ranger or Ranger Raptor but if Mercedes brought the X over it'd be a difficult choice. But if they do decide to bring it... a great PR move would be to have a US based WC event with a coinciding release announcement of the trucks move to the US. Would have tons of media flocking to the event thus also giving collateral exposure to the sport. Heck you'd think it'd also be a given due to all the Sprinter bike rigs.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

zgxtreme said:


> It'd help if the X-Class was bound for the States. I'm a Ford guy and am waiting on the Ranger or Ranger Raptor but if Mercedes brought the X over it'd be a difficult choice. But if they do decide to bring it... a great PR move would be to have a US based WC event with a coinciding release announcement of the trucks move to the US. Would have tons of media flocking to the event thus also giving collateral exposure to the sport. Heck you'd think it'd also be a given due to all the Sprinter bike rigs.


It only has a 4ft box. It could be the best truck in the world by a long ways but there is no way I am buying a truck that I have to put a ski box. (Completely off topic here)


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## mtb_phd (Jun 28, 2017)

chomxxo said:


> A major downer for USAC Nationals in past years has been high altitude at ski resorts. I don't think it fits the aggressive style of modern XCO. The ski resort style of trail (up, up, up, down, down, down), is boring and favors those who live at altitude.
> 
> USAC has done its best to make amends recently and I'm sure glad they have. I understand the organizational dilemma with a "double" event; you've got to be around real mountains to host a DH race. No disrespect to the hills in Arkansas, I went to school up there, but I understand it's not enough.
> 
> ...


USAC has done a really good job keeping nationals courses short and rolly - especially for the pro races - since at least 2012, even at the ski resorts. But in terms of ski resorts, even Lenzerheide was at a ski resort and technically at altitude, but still fun to watch.

Amateur races do tend to use longer courses, mainly due to it being more about participation and less about making for good TV. Plus there are often hundreds of racers out at once!

Bear in mind that to even be considered to host a national championship, you need deep pocket$. Double that for a WC. Big ski resorts have tended to have some spare capital.

As an aside, I've heard about 2 resorts in the US that will host a WC next year from 2 "reliable" sources. Something tells me we won't have 2 races next year...and that maybe I need new sources


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## sandyf (Sep 3, 2012)

I've heard from some highly reputable sources that there will be a WC in Snowshoe, West Virginia next year. So, sorry if any of you actually wanted to come and watch it.


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## becycling (Sep 14, 2018)

sandyf said:


> I've heard from some highly reputable sources that there will be a WC in Snowshoe, West Virginia next year. So, sorry if any of you actually wanted to come and watch it.


I'm not sure why Snowshoe is getting the amount of attention it is at the moment, other than putting up the money to host events. The village is decent and the riding is good but its way out of the way for anyone to reasonably go just for the hell of it. Or make it worth going to only spectate the events. Plus the XC trails there really lack anything defining for a World Cup level course. I'm really surprised no one has mentioned Western North Carolina; the area definitely has the terrain and Asheville is a really good cycling city with an airport not too far away.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

sandyf said:


> I've heard from some highly reputable sources that there will be a WC in Snowshoe, West Virginia next year. So, sorry if any of you actually wanted to come and watch it.


Why does USAC hate itself and the cyclists of this country so much?

No offense to the good people of WV, but there are very few states less likely to provide a large crowd than WV.

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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Why does USAC hate itself and the cyclists of this country so much?
> 
> No offense to the good people of WV, but there are very few states less likely to provide a large crowd than WV.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Crowd, family reunion, call it what you wish...


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

So Avancini beat Geismayr for the XCM Worlds title. I didn‘t see that one coming. Well deserved.
Annika won by five minutes despite a big crash on a descent. Hope she is alright. Super strong as expected.


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## euro-trash (Feb 9, 2008)

becycling said:


> I'm not sure why Snowshoe is getting the amount of attention it is at the moment, other than putting up the money to host events.
> 
> This is 100% the reason. Neither USAC or the UCI choose locations. They accept or deny bids. These require large sums of cash. The validity of the course does factor in, but comes after the evaluation of the financial and promotional validity.
> 
> ...


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## jarhead22 (Feb 26, 2014)

chilla13 said:


> So Avancini beat Geismayr for the XCM Worlds title. I didn't see that one coming. Well deserved.
> Annika won by five minutes despite a big crash on a descent. Hope she is alright. Super strong as expected.


by any chance do you know of any links so we can see it


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Closest I've found so far is...
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=xcm+2018


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Man that was steep...


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## jet9rdopilot (Nov 10, 2012)

I am sure I can look up the requirements for course design in the UCI rule book but US courses are usually at a ski resort at altitude. American courses seem to be old school with distance, with no obstacles. Built more for local racers. DH on fire roads.

The Sea Otter course is a joke because it is limited to the area inside the confines of Laguna Seca race track and I doubt they will allow the organizers to tear it up for a mountain bike race course.

Suggestions:
Mt Snow in Vermont: Pluses had World Cup races in past. Do not know if they want to invest money into building a XC/DH World Cup course. Lodging/food?, Travel time?, Spectators.

Snowshoe in WVa: Same as above. Very remote location, with very limited food selection. I think they have the lodging. Defiantly the DH. Have raced here several times.

Seven Springs in PA: Same as above. Near Pittsburg, PA. Vertical drop is probably a problem here. Limited lodging. Near major city. Have raced here.

Widham in NY: Has held WC in past. Near NY City. I think it was XC only.

Vail in CO: Has held World Championships twice. Altitude is a factor here. 

Last Americans to win World Championships was Alisson Dunlap, WC races Lea Davidson and Geogia Gould.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Windham had quite a butt clenching DH course.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

jet9rdopilot said:


> I am sure I can look up the requirements for course design in the UCI rule book but US courses are usually at a ski resort at altitude. American courses seem to be old school with distance, with no obstacles. Built more for local racers. DH on fire roads.
> 
> The Sea Otter course is a joke because it is limited to the area inside the confines of Laguna Seca race track and I doubt they will allow the organizers to tear it up for a mountain bike race course.
> 
> ...


Huh?

Aside from your characterization of Sea Otter, most of what you said is questionable, at best.

FYI: Lea Davison and Georgia Gould have never won World Cups. And the last US woman to win Worlds was Kate Courtney.

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## Ausable (Jan 7, 2006)

NordieBoy said:


> Man that was steep...


After almost 100km, that was the last section of the final climb. 
What do you think of Avancini's move of putting the bike sideways to avoid being passed ?


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Ausable said:


> After almost 100km, that was the last section of the final climb.
> What do you think of Avancini's move of putting the bike sideways to avoid being passed ?


Experienced rider.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Either totally accidental, or very nicely done.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Ausable said:


> After almost 100km, that was the last section of the final climb.
> What do you think of Avancini's move of putting the bike sideways to avoid being passed ?


Looks unintentional but hey whatever works.

I'd like to point out that Dolomites, Italy is around 10,000 feet of elevation. For marathon and other endurance events I think the back country format is terrific; let the environment play a factor.

Regardless of whether video flattens the terrain, take a look at that clip again now that you know. Yeah, flashbacks to Breckenridge for me too, where 34x42t wasn't nearly enough at high altitude. Pros getting off and walking, saw that too. It's humbling 

For an XCO race course I think anything up to 5,000 feet is OK, a touch of altitude, but no coughing and wheezing.

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## MarkJ70 (May 31, 2006)

chomxxo said:


> For an XCO race course I think anything up to 5,000 feet is OK, a touch of altitude, but no coughing and wheezing.


I thought this sport was called mountain biking? What's wrong with actually racing in mountains. Around here (Utah) we regularly do xc races that start at 8,000 feet and climb to over 9000 feet. Why should that be too much of a challenge for a world cup? I understand it requires acclimatization, but if you want to participate in a sport that contains the word "mountain" in it, that doesn't seem like too much to expect.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

MarkJ70 said:


> I thought this sport was called mountain biking? What's wrong with actually racing in mountains. Around here (Utah) we regularly do xc races that start at 8,000 feet and climb to over 9000 feet. Why should that be too much of a challenge for a world cup? I understand it requires acclimatization, but if you want to participate in a sport that contains the word "mountain" in it, that doesn't seem like too much to expect.


Trying to keep spectation numbers up. Need viewers to make money. Harder to make money when the courses are boring, or the racers are too winded racing at elevation to take harder tech lines.

I also race at 7000+ elevation, I also don't have a problem with it. But...very few are watching me race.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

I don't see why altitude should be an issue. Yeah it affects the riders, but it affects everyone. It is just a part of the course like rocks/roots steep climbs descents. Every course will favor some riders more than others just as certain parts of a course will favor some riders more than others. 

I did Breck Epic this year and 90% of that race was over 10,000 feet and frankly while it was hard it was really like a race at 1000 feet. We might not have putting the same watts, but we were still racing. Just an average racer here the altitude did not pose a problem till over 12k feet, but realistically that won't be part of XCO race anyway. Point is racing at altitdue can be done. Andorra is what 6000ft? I see no issues going over to 7k to 9k for racing too. I will admit 10k is little up there, but if you are pro you can handle it. Any in the end speed is always relative. TV can't show how fast the riders are really going. Even being at the event you can see it, but in the end is not pure speed. It speed relative to the other racers that makes it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Well, think about it from a funding perspective. 

A guy on a well funded team will come out 3 weeks before the race and be completely acclimated. A guy on a lesser team or a privateer can’t afford to rent a house in Vail for 3 weeks. 


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

There already is XCO races at elevation. Andora is a long climb course at 1900m and offers great competative racing. And although altitude acclimatization makes a difference having good form make a much bigger difference. I know Catharine's best two results at Andora she did zero altitude prep for (we live at 400m). She did well because she was going well.

The other thing is you need to do the work to be competitive. Next years WCs are at MSA, to do well there you are likely going to need to be comfortable on wet rocks and roots. If you live in the a dry climate then you are going to have to spend significant time in some place that has those conditions. Probably way longer then it would take to adapt to altitude.

Elite level competition is about adapting to the course conditions, altitude, heat, cold, wet, technical, ect....


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Well, think about it from a funding perspective.
> 
> A guy on a well funded team will come out 3 weeks before the race and be completely acclimated. A guy on a lesser team or a privateer can't afford to rent a house in Vail for 3 weeks.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nothing is ever equal. You can always train your way around situations and problems, but in the end you have to be smart. Annika probably should spend time chasing the weather to ride wet rocky trails. If so she might have won World Cup series. I have to think riding for Specialized Factory means you have a comparatively large budget for the team.

Like anything you have to work at it. Nothing comes easy and nothing can be simply "bought" it has to be earned. As mentioned earlier in this tread Neff practices the DH like crazy at WC events. She puts in the time and is clearly faster on the descents. Does to cost her with respect to fitness training time or over all fatigue? Or does that put her a risk for a practice crash more and end of the season (AKA Sam Gaze)? It it always a trade off.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

LMN said:


> ....
> 
> The other thing is you need to do the work to be competitive. Next years WCs are at MSA, to do well there you are likely going to need to be comfortable on wet rocks and roots. If you live in the a dry climate then you are going to have to spend significant time in some place that has those conditions. Probably way longer then it would take to adapt to altitude.
> 
> Elite level competition is about adapting to the course conditions, altitude, heat, cold, wet, technical, ect....


Even at me at my "Club level" this so clear. I ride in the desert. So lots of loose rocks, loose dirt, dust and high temps. Think of Stellenbosch dirt and Cape Epic. For an Arizona desert ride this "normal". Dusty rocky sections are where it is at? Firm hard pack I am not as fast on. I just don't have the hardpack to practice on. Wet roots? Mud? WTF? What are mud tires? Never heard of them! I ride wet roots maybe 3-4 times year and I am simply not as faster. I am tentative. It very hard to get 3 weeks of "wet training rides" in some places. So LMN is spot on. Every course will play to certain riders strengths or weaknesses.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

The highest road leagle track in the country is at 1693m here.
Plenty of steep available, just not so much altitude.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

JoePAz said:


> I don't see why altitude should be an issue. Yeah it affects the riders, but it affects everyone. It is just a part of the course like rocks/roots steep climbs descents. Every course will favor some riders more than others just as certain parts of a course will favor some riders more than others.
> 
> I did Breck Epic this year and 90% of that race was over 10,000 feet and frankly while it was hard it was really like a race at 1000 feet. We might not have putting the same watts, but we were still racing. Just an average racer here the altitude did not pose a problem till over 12k feet, but realistically that won't be part of XCO race anyway. Point is racing at altitdue can be done. Andorra is what 6000ft? I see no issues going over to 7k to 9k for racing too. I will admit 10k is little up there, but if you are pro you can handle it. Any in the end speed is always relative. TV can't show how fast the riders are really going. Even being at the event you can see it, but in the end is not pure speed. It speed relative to the other racers that makes it.


Are you sure that Breck Epic was no big deal for you? Because out of all the top pros in America during the 2017 race, only one rode up Wheeler Pass. The rest of us hiked a lot more.

1900m is a little above 5000' (the elevation of the Mile High City of Denver which is known for giving its teams home-field advantage), but we're just splitting hairs, I'm talking about double that.

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## jet9rdopilot (Nov 10, 2012)

Aside from your characterization of Sea Otter, most of what you said is questionable, at best.

FYI: Lea Davison and Georgia Gould have never won World Cups. And the last US woman to win Worlds was Kate Courtney.

Opinions are like ah's, everyone has one. Staying on the East Coast would make more sense in that it would be closer to Mount Ste Anne. But S Africa and Cairns are alone ways to go for one race. 

What don't you understand between past and present?

Last American to win Worlds was Allison Dunlap, with Allison Sydor a close #2 in Vail, CO in 2001. Do not remember any top men or women after Julie, Ruthie, Susan, Allison, Tomac, Wells, Ned.

You are correct in that Lea and Georgia never won a World Cup. Who was the last American to win a World Cup race men or women? 

Were NORBA/Grundig races World Cup races? I remember a International field at those races. One XC being held at Chardon Cellars in Napa. 

Been going to Sea Otter for the last seven years. Use to be two or more 15 mile laps for pros, now to make it more spectator friendly they have limited it to inside the track. Start on pavement, race to turn 4, than to turn 3, turn around race pavement with some sand traps up to the cork screw, turn left then downhill near the 4 cross course back to the start. What is not lame about that?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

jet9rdopilot said:


> You are correct in that Lea and Georgia never won a World Cup. Who was the last American to win a World Cup race men or women?


I believe it was Alison Dunlap. 2000 season, not sure what races. She did win the overall in the 2002 race season but no WC wins.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

jet9rdopilot said:


> Were NORBA/Grundig races World Cup races? I remember a International field at those races. One XC being held at Chardon Cellars in Napa.


NORBA were national USA rounds, Grundig were world cup rounds... there may have been evens that were both maybe?


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## pemberton325 (May 13, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> I'd like to point out that Dolomites, Italy is around 10,000 feet of elevation.


So, I am lucky enough to be stationed in Italy and live less than 2 hours from the XCM this year. I signed up and was able to complete the 3 Epic Tre Cime Lavaredo adventure marathon race on Sunday. It was basically the same 90 kilo race that the females did on Saturday. With a little bit of changes.

Auronzo di Cadore, the city that the start/finish was held is roughly 2705 ft elevation and the highest point of the race was 7443 ft. I got all this information from my Garmin Data.

The Dolomites are big mountains, but not as big as the ones in the states. The highest paved road in Italy...Passo Stelvio is 9,045 ft.

Just thought I would point that out.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

pemberton325 said:


> So, I am lucky enough to be stationed in Italy and live less than 2 hours from the XCM this year. I signed up and was able to complete the 3 Epic Tre Cime Lavaredo adventure marathon race on Sunday. It was basically the same 90 kilo race that the females did on Saturday. With a little bit of changes.
> 
> Auronzo di Cadore, the city that the start/finish was held is roughly 2705 ft elevation and the highest point of the race was 7443 ft. I got all this information from my Garmin Data.
> 
> ...


That's what I get for trusting Google, thought that was too high for Europe, thanks for that correction.

This is what some of our National heroes look like trying to climb up to 12,500 feet. That's Todd Wells walking. Geoff Kabush was back there behind Bishop, suffering from altitude sickness until day 5. Howard Grotts couldn't keep up with the crafty old guys on this day either, although he won overall.

So... sounds like a fun XCO race to me! 






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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

chomxxo said:


> That's what I get for trusting Google, thought that was too high for Europe, thanks for that correction.
> 
> This is what some of our National heroes look like trying to climb up to 12,500 feet. That's Todd Wells walking. Geoff Kabush was back there behind Bishop, suffering from altitude sickness until day 5. Howard Grotts couldn't keep up with the crafty old guys on this day either, although he won overall.
> 
> ...


Now, that is what mountain biking is about in its literal sense.

However, nowadays "mountain bike" basically encompasses any off road riding, whether it has mountains or not. Which is not a bad thing, not every one has mountains at the back of their backyard.

Riding mountains and grasping for air is a unique experience though, I feel bad for those that never get the chance to experience it.


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## Walt Disney's Frozen Head (Jan 9, 2008)

chomxxo said:


> That's what I get for trusting Google, thought that was too high for Europe, thanks for that correction.
> 
> This is what some of our National heroes look like trying to climb up to 12,500 feet. That's Todd Wells walking. Geoff Kabush was back there behind Bishop, suffering from altitude sickness until day 5. Howard Grotts couldn't keep up with the crafty old guys on this day either, although he won overall.
> 
> ...


fyi, that is a combo of terrain and altitude not one or the other. That said, I'm not quite sure what your point is.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Highest paved road in Europe is 2802m (9100ft) Col de La Bonnett.
Just outside Nice. The coords and elevation are printed on the side of the fairing on 2008-13 model Honda Transalps.


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## kylepeveto (Apr 25, 2006)

LMN: Is Catharine going to race for Clif at the World Cup races next year? The Clif Pro Team press releases make it look like they are only racing in North America.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

kylepeveto said:


> Is Catharine going to race for Clif at the World Cup races next year? The Clif Pro Team press releases make it look like they are only racing in North America.


Outside of stalking on Instagram... what is he best news source for XCO stuff to include the offseason business moves?


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## kylepeveto (Apr 25, 2006)

I piece it together with Instagram and Twitter. Bill from Crosshairs mentioned this new on a podcast last week, but I saw the news release yesterday on Instagram and Facebook. I wish there was an English-language site that covered cross-country racing well. Every year I seem to learn about teams folding or athletes transferring during the first race. But, yeah, Instagram seems to be the best place to learn this stuff.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> That's what I get for trusting Google, thought that was too high for Europe, thanks for that correction.


Europe has plenty of tall peaks, including a number taller than any in the in conterminous US. Mont Blanc is over 15,000. But average peak elevation isn't where you're going to stage a MTB race.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

kylepeveto said:


> LMN: Is Catharine going to race for Clif at the World Cup races next year? The Clif Pro Team press releases make it look like they are only racing in North America.


Catharine will be racing world cups next year. The actually Cliff team is going to be at domestic events only.


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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

Does any of you heard any news about Jenny Rissveds? Might she come back next season?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

bananajoe said:


> Does any of you heard any news about Jenny Rissveds? Might she come back next season?


She's doing intervals so hard she gave herself a nose bleed.

That indicates yes, to me.

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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> She's doing intervals so hard she gave herself a nose bleed.
> 
> That indicates yes, to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If she can get back to form, 2019 could be a manic season for women WC. Batty with a new spark in her gut, Langvad, Neff, PFP and now Rissveds....sheesh man that's some fierce competition.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

winters.benjamin said:


> If she can get back to form, 2019 could be a manic season for women WC. Batty with a new spark in her gut, Langvad, Neff, PFP and now Rissveds....sheesh man that's some fierce competition.


Right on! Don't forget about the new World Champion!


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

bananajoe said:


> Does any of you heard any news about Jenny Rissveds? Might she come back next season?


Best way to keep up with all your favorite elite athletes: Instagram


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

Rissveds told Swedish media recently that she is in training to race next year and building her own team. That would be great to see. But running her own team will come with a lot of burdens, financial and otherwise. Maybe it is what she needs. Most racers need to focus on their race and their training/rest/nutrition regimen, and it can be draining to devote much bandwidth to the logistics of running a team, race support, and business considerations. 


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

J-Flo said:


> Rissveds told Swedish media recently that she is in training to race next year and building her own team. That would be great to see. But running her own team will come with a lot of burdens, financial and otherwise. Maybe it is what she needs. Most racers need to focus on their race and their training/rest/nutrition regimen, and it can be draining to devote much bandwidth to the logistics of running a team, race support, and business considerations.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm glad to hear this. When she went out, there were strong hints Scott team wasn't the good player they made us believe. In fact, I believe it was the opposite, they put Jenny on the front saying they would back her up, the only problem was that Jenny shouldn't have been fighting that fight for Scott.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

TDLover said:


> I'm glad to hear this. When she went out, there were strong hints Scott team wasn't the good player they made us believe. In fact, I believe it was the opposite, they put Jenny on the front saying they would back her up, the only problem was that Jenny shouldn't have been fighting that fight for Scott.


Grapevine has it that another "big" name female rider is head to Scott.

Could be an interesting year on the team front. There was rumoured to be a lot of shuffling going on the women's side. Big names and major teams are involved. Or it could look the same.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

LMN said:


> Grapevine has it that another "big" name female rider is head to Scott.
> 
> Could be an interesting year on the team front. There was rumoured to be a lot of shuffling going on the women's side. Big names and major teams are involved. Or it could look the same.


Big? Langvad is pretty tall. Neff to Scott would seem like a natural fit too... I had been thinking Batty to Scott... Should be interesting.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

kevbikemad said:


> Big? Langvad is pretty tall. Neff to Scott would seem like a natural fit too... I had been thinking Batty to Scott... Should be interesting.


I was wondering if this year's performance and contract expiration would mean a jump for Batty as well. I don't know when contract fulfillment or changes would begin but her Instagram has her in Waterloo Trekking it up for the CX WC. I get the feeling she's got a bit of "franchise player" in her when it comes to Trek. Neff to Scott like you said seems very natural though. I also wonder if Canyon wants to grow beyond PFP and MdvP in the XCO side.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Neff to Scott would be hawt!!


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

Neff to someone else, but it's definitely not Scott.


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## chilla13 (Mar 27, 2017)

Alessandra Keller to Scott, I would guess. The whole Thömus-thing is a late „better than nothing but far from good“ fix for the athletes after Radon did not continue sponsoring RN Racing.


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## pastronef (Aug 20, 2018)

I looked for info about the Cannondale trio Marotte Avancini Fumic. no idea if the stay with Cannondale in 2019 too. pro mtbking would need a website like procyclingstats has done for the road racing


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Curious about MvDP. His team is signing people to make a run at the Spring Classics with Mathieu the guy. Don't see how he can do a cross season, spring classics and MTB world Cup campaign. That has burn out written all over it. From the outside looking in he seems to have built this rivalry in his head with Wout Van Aert and WvA's massive year on the road last year bothered Mathieu which is why the push to do Flanders and Roubaix. Doesn't help that Wout has beat Mathieu 4 out of the 6 times they faced off in Cross Worlds.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Rivet said:


> Curious about MvDP. His team is signing people to make a run at the Spring Classics with Mathieu the guy. Don't see how he can do a cross season, spring classics and MTB world Cup campaign. That has burn out written all over it. From the outside looking in he seems to have built this rivalry in his head with Wout Van Aert and WvA's massive year on the road last year bothered Mathieu which is why the push to do Flanders and Roubaix. Doesn't help that Wout has beat Mathieu 4 out of the 6 times they faced off in Cross Worlds.


The time is quickly coming where he needs to make a decision whether he is content being a jack of all trades and a master of none or focus on one and master it. I just don't know if his personality or ego can do that...


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

pastronef said:


> I looked for info about the Cannondale trio Marotte Avancini Fumic. no idea if the stay with Cannondale in 2019 too. pro mtbking would need a website like procyclingstats has done for the road racing


We call this "Silly Season" in MotoGP circles.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Sidewalk said:


> We call this "Silly Season" in MotoGP circles.


When this topic popped up I immediately thought of the need for a Jayski style site for MTB and XC.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Woman who won Junior XCO worlds just won the Junior Road Worlds.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/stigger-becomes-world-champion-in-just-her-second-road-race/

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Woman who won Junior XCO worlds just won the Junior Road Worlds.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/stigger-becomes-world-champion-in-just-her-second-road-race/
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is no surprise. You know when you see a talent coming up. Despite a 2 minute start gap that girl has caught and passed the entire elite field at some high level UCI races.

Assuming she can successfully make the transition from junior to U23/elite she will quickly be a force on the world stage.


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## Afrobiker (Dec 19, 2010)

XCO UCI event is coming to Snowshoe next season. Can't find it now, but saw the Manny Fumic post the next 2 years schedule of races....


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Afrobiker said:


> XCO UCI event is coming to Snowshoe next season. Can't find it now, but saw the Manny Fumic post the next 2 years schedule of races....


A WC? If so, wow. That'll be very poorly attended.

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## bananajoe (May 15, 2015)

Apparently the world cup schedule is as follow (ride.ch)

Mountainbike Worldcup 2019

27. - 28. April: Maribor (Slovenia) DHI
17. - 19. Mai: Albstadt (Germany) XCO/XCC
24. - 26. Mai: Nove Mesto (Czech Republic) XCO/XCC
01. - 02. June: Fort William (Scotland) DHI
08. - 09. June: Leogang (Austria) DHI
05. - 07. Juli: Vallnord (Andorra) XCO/XCC/DHI
12. - 14. Juli: Les Gets (France) XCO/DHI
02. - 04. Aug: Val di Sole (Italia) XCO/XCC/DHI
09. - 11. Aug: Lenzerheide (Switzerland) XCO/XCC/DHI
06. - 08. Sept: Snowshoe (USA) XCO/XCC/DHI

Mountainbike Worldcup 2020

20. - 21. March: Lousa (Portugal) DHI
25. - 26. March: Lourdes (France)DHI
09. - 10. Mai: Losinj (Croatia) DHI
22. - 24. Mai: Nove Mesto (Czech Republic) XCO/XCC
06. - 07. June: Fort William (Scotland) DHI
19. - 21. June: Vallnord (Andorra) XCO/DHI
14. - 16. Aug: Lenzerheide (Switzerland) XCO/XCC
21. - 23. Aug: Mont Sainte Anne (Canada) XCO/DHI
12. - 13. Sept: Val di Sole (Italia) XCO/XCC/DHI
18. - 20. Sept: Les Gets (France) XCO/XCC/DHI

World championships / Olympic games

28. Aug - 01. Sept: World championships Mont Sainte Anne (Canada) XCO/DHI
25. - 28. June: World championships Albstadt (Germany) XCO
27. - 28. Juli: Olympic games Tokyo (Japan) XCO
05. - 06. Sept: World championships Leogang (Austria) DHI


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> A WC? If so, wow. That'll be very poorly attended.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree. And using the venue for only for one year. Brilliant [not]!

How in the world is this going to help grow, cultivate or raise interest, an audience, etc., in the sport? And the funny thing is, with what RedbullTV is doing to make, aside from cross, XC racing the most interesting and entertaining form of racing from a viewership standpoint, that opportunity to regenerate interest in the US is/was huge.

With a newly XCO crowned rider and bike company from N. Cal, would it have really been that difficult to find a date and venue within a week prior to Sea Otter in central or S. California, especially since, apparently S. Africa is no more [sad face], and the European WC season doesn't start till mid May?


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## pastronef (Aug 20, 2018)

Alan Hatherly signed for 2 years with Specialized Racing. rumors are Sam Gaze still has to sign for 2019


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Never a fan of the worlds being before the last world cup. (looking on phone thats how it looks)


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

mik_git said:


> Never a fan of the worlds being before the last world cup. (looking on phone thats how it looks)


That's for 2020 only - to put Worlds before the Olympics on the calendar.

Apparently in 2019, the last World Cup in Snowshoe will be one week AFTER Worlds in MSA. It makes some sense geographically, but the order is odd isn't it?

I've heard the course and venue at Snowshoe are good ones but like most people I haven't been there. The crowd for nationals was tiny this year and somehow they managed to completely avoid almost all press coverage even in the cycling press. Those of us who care about this sort of thing should try to find a way to get there for the World Cup.

All of this is assuming the posted calendar is correct of course.

Anyone know where US MTB Nationals will be next year? I heard several conflicting reports (mostly focused on Colorado) but can't find anything on the web.

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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

J-Flo said:


> That's for 2020 only - to put Worlds before the Olympics on the calendar.
> 
> Apparently in 2019, the last World Cup in Snowshoe will be one week AFTER Worlds in MSA...


So thats both years then...

I understand WHY they do it, i just dont like it.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

J-Flo said:


> Anyone know where US MTB Nationals will be next year? I heard several conflicting reports (mostly focused on Colorado) but can't find anything on the web.


USAC responded to a post on their Facebook saying an announcement is coming "soon," and that they were confirming some details.

Colorado would be amazing... mostly because it really can't get any closer than that for me! Unless it was in southeastern Wyoming, but we're land of anti-USAC... which honestly Colorado is, too. Very rare to have USAC MTB events in this region.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

sooshee said:


> USAC responded to a post on their Facebook saying an announcement is coming "soon," and that they were confirming some details.
> 
> Colorado would be amazing... mostly because it really can't get any closer than that for me! Unless it was in southeastern Wyoming, but we're land of anti-USAC... which honestly Colorado is, too. Very rare to have USAC MTB events in this region.


Yeah. I occasionally post on the Colorado Springs locals page about the irony of there being zero USAC XCO races within an hour of the national cycling org's HQ.

The closest race is a weeknight race series up in Castle Rock.

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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Yeah. I occasionally post on the Colorado Springs locals page about the irony of there being zero USAC XCO races within an hour of the national cycling org's HQ.
> 
> The closest race is a weeknight race series up in Castle Rock.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There was a USAC race in Bailey this summer that was very poorly advertised. I found out about it after it already happened.

Honestly, we do MTB racing right in this region. Most USAC sanctioned MTB races I've attended have been shitshows. I'm kinda glad they're not around messing things up. However, if they have a nationals in CO I surely hope someone steps up and hosts a USAC race that is a qualifier beforehand. Irony would be everyone from CO having to travel to UT or further to even qualify to race as a cat 1/2 at a nationals in CO...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I regularly find out about XC races on/near the Front Range after they happened. It’s pretty amazing how poorly information is distributed here. 

You’d think that, even if a race was not held under the auspices of USAC, they’d still serve as a clearinghouse for info. Nope. 


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> I regularly find out about XC races on/near the Front Range after they happened. It's pretty amazing how poorly information is distributed here.
> 
> You'd think that, even if a race was not held under the auspices of USAC, they'd still serve as a clearinghouse for info. Nope.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I use to make a comprehensive calendar for WY and CO, and people flipped out when I didn't do a 2018 one. It blows my mind that no one else even tries to do it... Granted, it's tough. So many people put on MTB events in this region.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Ah. I’ve seen that before. 

Unrelated: I wonder how Kate Courtney would’ve done at road worlds this past weekend. Some of her training partners finished in the top 15-20.


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

mik_git said:


> So thats both years then...
> 
> I understand WHY they do it, i just dont like it.


Doh. You're right.

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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

sooshee said:


> Very rare to have USAC MTB events in this region.


That could be said about many areas. Most of the good races in NorCal are not USAC sanctioned. (Not to mention that we haven't had an MTB race of any kind in Marin, the alleged birthplace of the sport, since 2014.). I'm sure there are a host of business, cultural and historical reasons for this, but at the end of the day it isn't good for the sport here.

If you wonder why the Swiss are so dominant, look at their 8-race super-competitive SwissCup series and how it feeds into international racing, and how all the juniors are dreaming of doing well in the SwissCup races. I'm sure the challenge of organizing this is greater in our huge libertarian country where everyone wants to do their own thing and the benefit of a national race program seems remote to each individual organizer. ProXCT could do the same thing here but the US is too darn big. But I don't know why there couldn't be a Colorado Cup, NorCal Cup, etc etc all feeding into ProXCT and nationals. It takes a lot of hard work and someone willing to do it. (easy for me to say)

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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

Hard work and money. I think money always ends up being the key thing. And desire... the entire culture would have to change to accept USAC and events that are meant to funnel into a national level. Speaking from my experience in Wyoming where maybe 3 or 4 people really care about racing a national championship (and maybe 3 hold a USAC license to begin with), promoters just don't see the need to have USAC. A promoter once held a USAC AMBC race in Wyoming in 2015, and a week before the race only 3 people had preregistered (all of us with a license). They had to slash entry fees by over half just to attract a fairly light crowd to come to a race. This is in a town that otherwise has no issues getting over 200+ people out to weeknight race series. A total of 3 Cat 1 racers showed up, 2 guys and me (only female). It really ended up not being worth the gas money in the end. Luckily the course was awesome. The promoter dropped his big USAC dreams (when I talked to him he was going on about someday hosting a World Cup, which hey, I admire big goals, but come on, be realistic), and now they hold an 8 hour race that attracts a way bigger crowd. Even in Colorado, USAC sanctioned MTB races are less attended than other races. I get way more competition and bigger fields on a Tuesday night in a grassroots race in the pro category than I get at a USAC sanctioned race where I might race one other girl if I'm lucky. 

NICA has become hugely successful (at least where I am, but appears that way nationwide), but I wonder how many of those kids are racing in the "off season" and then continue on in college and as adults. I always see a lot of time and effort put into juniors racing, but retention rates once they reach 18 or 19 don't always seem that great.

Europe definitely has a completely different cycling culture. I mean, just look at the number of spectators! Here in the US we race in front of a handful of bored family members.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Our local SoCal series dropped USAC for last year. I don't know why. The series holds two races on two different ProXCT courses, on the same weekends. And turn out did not improve in 2018 over 2017. It does make it hard to qualify for an upgrade, or nationals, if there aren't any sanctioned races. How are we going to feed into the world stage if we don't have sanctioned races?

I'm new'ish to cycling, started MTB in 2015 (triathlon for a few years before that). I have heard people complain about hating USAC, but never witnessed anything bad in my few years. But I am certainly glad I earned my license before our local series dropped USAC.


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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

Sidewalk said:


> Our local SoCal series dropped USAC for last year. I don't know why. The series holds two races on two different ProXCT courses, on the same weekends. And turn out did not improve in 2018 over 2017. It does make it hard to qualify for an upgrade, or nationals, if there aren't any sanctioned races. How are we going to feed into the world stage if we don't have sanctioned races?
> 
> I'm new'ish to cycling, started MTB in 2015 (triathlon for a few years before that). I have heard people complain about hating USAC, but never witnessed anything bad in my few years. But I am certainly glad I earned my license before our local series dropped USAC.


It may be different since I'm female and maybe they're more lenient, but I used non-sanctioned racing results to get my pro USAC upgrade. I only had a single cat 1 USAC result, but gave them my full list of results and they approved it. In way, I don't know how else they'd expect someone from these USAC-less pockets to get upgrades unless they had a lot of time and money to travel far distances to race.

I don't necessarily hate USAC... I race a full cross season every year and some road, so I deal with USAC quite regularly. The USAC officials I deal with for cross/road in Colorado are nothing but friendly and helpful, and our gal that handles upgrades has been fair and easy to work with. However, the USAC sanctioned mountain bike races I have been to (CO, UT, WY, PA, IA, and FL), including several national championships, have been sub-par. Poor timing, delayed results, poor communication, not starting on time, poor course marking, etc. Perhaps I am just spoiled since my local weeknight series does live timing/results in the middle of the woods, has friendly staff, well marked courses, and starts on time, so I have higher expectations.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

sooshee said:


> However, the USAC sanctioned mountain bike races I have been to


That's the weird part. Last year with the USAC, there were just a couple of officials there to watch over things, that's it. The same people were running the event (Sho-Air and Team Big Bear). The local organizer handled everything, just a couple of officials making sure everyone is following the rules. I think the courses were actually marked slightly better, but that might have been UCI weekends I am thinking about. Literally, the only difference I remember is a couple of drop offs were marked on the weekends that had the ProXCT round there. Otherwise, everything else was the same.


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## Walt Disney's Frozen Head (Jan 9, 2008)

Sidewalk said:


> That's the weird part. Last year with the USAC, there were just a couple of officials there to watch over things, that's it. The same people were running the event (Sho-Air and Team Big Bear). The local organizer handled everything, just a couple of officials making sure everyone is following the rules. I think the courses were actually marked slightly better, but that might have been UCI weekends I am thinking about. Literally, the only difference I remember is a couple of drop offs were marked on the weekends that had the ProXCT round there. Otherwise, everything else was the same.


For the most part out here (CO) the promoters of the xc races are/were different from the regularly scheduled events. There's been a bit of USAC presence lately (here) with the last two iterations of the Breck Epic (insurance costs mainly) and Thane picked them up for the Breck32/68/100(92) possibly to try to drive more attendance (complete speculation on my part) and to crown the state champions.

I'm kinda sad that the MSC/Corps disappeared but I also kinda get it as locally the "market" has shifted - evidenced by the popularity of the longer single loop tracks like those of Epic Rides. I didn't make any trips to Winter Park this year (sad) but from what I've heard attendance is better than the past few but not that much better (perhaps stale?). Anyhow, I'll stop my part of the thread derailment


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## Afrobiker (Dec 19, 2010)

oops


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## Afrobiker (Dec 19, 2010)

sooshee said:


> Colorado would be amazing... mostly because it really can't get any closer than that for me! Unless it was in southeastern Wyoming, but we're land of anti-USAC... which honestly Colorado is, too. Very rare to have USAC MTB events in this region.


I attended the Laramie Enduro this past summer and I will say....WY has some KILLER trails.

Elevation sucked for us sea levelers, but man the trails were awesome!


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

J-Flo said:


> That's for 2020 only - to put Worlds before the Olympics on the calendar.
> 
> Apparently in 2019, the last World Cup in Snowshoe will be one week AFTER Worlds in MSA. It makes some sense geographically, but the order is odd isn't it?
> 
> ...


I just booked the same room in the center village! Went ahead and took the risk of losing a very small deposit.

The Nationals course was not amazing.

The downhill and Enduro stuff was very fun and interesting terrain. The people are super nice and everything is extremely affordable.

The XC course has its moments but raced mainly an up and down fire road traverse. They do have the ability to layout a completely different course very easily if the Enduro is not happening at the same time.

We went:
-down a green downhill run single file, 
-up a jeep rd 
-into a muddy BEAUTIFUL north shore looking forest section. 
- lots of time traversing back up and down on fire road traverse. 
-through the fake easy rock garden
- down a blue downhill run 90 seconds
- up a 12% average grade 300 foot climb
- through a 4 minute section of rocky ATV trail 
- up to another man made rock garden drop zone to the start loop.

Anyways... given the UCI rules of length and passing through the feed zone twice, the course will be totally different, but I can see in my mind how I would lay it out. There is good potential, there.

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## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

Walt Disney's Frozen Head said:


> For the most part out here (CO) the promoters of the xc races are/were different from the regularly scheduled events. There's been a bit of USAC presence lately (here) with the last two iterations of the Breck Epic (insurance costs mainly) and Thane picked them up for the Breck32/68/100(92) possibly to try to drive more attendance (complete speculation on my part) and to crown the state champions.
> 
> I'm kinda sad that the MSC/Corps disappeared but I also kinda get it as locally the "market" has shifted - evidenced by the popularity of the longer single loop tracks like those of Epic Rides. I didn't make any trips to Winter Park this year (sad) but from what I've heard attendance is better than the past few but not that much better (perhaps stale?). Anyhow, I'll stop my part of the thread derailment





Afrobiker said:


> I attended the Laramie Enduro this past summer and I will say....WY has some KILLER trails.
> 
> Elevation sucked for us sea levelers, but man the trails were awesome!


Those are my local trails  They are definitely great, but then again, I'm biased since they've what I've been riding and racing on since the beginning.

Elevation... well, come on, 8500 feet is completely normal with tons of oxygen  That's I never quite understand all the altitude comments on anything... Anything under 5000 feet is sea level in my mind.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

sooshee said:


> Those are my local trails  They are definitely great, but then again, I'm biased since they've what I've been riding and racing on since the beginning.
> 
> Elevation... well, come on, 8500 feet is completely normal with tons of oxygen  That's I never quite understand all the altitude comments on anything... Anything under 5000 feet is sea level in my mind.


If it makes you feel any better, I live at sea level and race at 7000' often. It doesn't bother me at all. I know I am weaker, but so is everyone else. I just don't think about it. And also, without a power meter, I have no way to actually see I am weaker, so I just ride the same.


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## Afrobiker (Dec 19, 2010)

sooshee said:


> Those are my local trails  They are definitely great, but then again, I'm biased since they've what I've been riding and racing on since the beginning.
> 
> Elevation... well, come on, 8500 feet is completely normal with tons of oxygen  That's I never quite understand all the altitude comments on anything... Anything under 5000 feet is sea level in my mind.


It definitely effected the legs and power output right about 3 hours in. Elevation suckage is definitely real! lol


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Hopefully this link works since I'm new to the Instagram world.


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bowjffmncsx/

Jenny Rissveds opening up about what she's been struggling with. Good call stepping up to take care of herself first.


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Great post by Jenny. Thank you for sharing it with us! 

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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

zgxtreme said:


> Hopefully this link works since I'm new to the Instagram world.
> 
> 
> __
> ...


Man. Not just athletes, but the world at large needs a hell of a lot more people willing to take a good hard look at themselves, make some tough, courageous confessions, and do the painful work of taking good, healthy steps forward. My story doesn't matter so I won't unravel it here, but I've had to walk a similar route and it is excruciating. Worthwhile, life-giving and 'right', but excruciating. Well done Jenny, keep it up.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

*SPOILER ALERT - don't read if you're following Brico Cross*









Oof...mvdp's ankle after a crash at brico cross today.


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

winters.benjamin said:


> View attachment 1220509
> 
> 
> Oof...mvdp's ankle after a crash at brico cross today.


I hope he can recover quickly. That's sad to see 

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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

Renzo7 said:


> I hope he can recover quickly. That's sad to see
> 
> Sent from my SM-J710MN using Tapatalk


And he goes out and crushes the field the following day. Wow


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

jms said:


> And he goes out and crushes the field the following day. Wow


Beast mode on! MVDP FTW

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## superfetch (Aug 10, 2010)

Kate Courtney to Scott
Emily Batty to Specialized
Jolanda Neff to Trek


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

superfetch said:


> Kate Courtney to Scott
> Emily Batty to Specialized
> Jolanda Neff to Trek


Interesting! I like Batty moving to Specialized, but I'm sad to see Kate leave.

Do you have a link to the source?

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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

superfetch said:


> Kate Courtney to Scott
> Emily Batty to Specialized
> Jolanda Neff to Trek


Nah. Batty staying with Trek.


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## NATO5 (Dec 28, 2016)

The only place I had seen this one was a Pinkbike article that was aggregating rumors together. Not sure if there was anything anywhere else.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/racing-rumors-2019-and-beyond.html


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

jms said:


> And he goes out and crushes the field the following day. Wow


Seriously, that was ridiculous. I've got to say, I really hope he's not doping. Not intending to drag unnecessary cynicism into the mix, but this kind of domination is really unique. I hope it's legit.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Strange article. Seems to completely ignore the fact that he's already racing in, and doing quite well in, XCO WCs.

https://www.velonews.com/2018/10/ne...s-the-fastest-guy-youve-never-heard-of_480091

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## becycling (Sep 14, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> Strange article. Seems to completely ignore the fact that he's already racing in, and doing quite well in, XCO WCs.
> 
> https://www.velonews.com/2018/10/ne...s-the-fastest-guy-youve-never-heard-of_480091
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, it seems weird that they ignored all of his national titles from when he was a junior and u23, or that fact that hes been on the international circuit since we was a junior. I raced collegiate with him and shared a couple teammates over the years and he's always been a stand-up guy so I'm happy to see him getting coverage. Though, VeloNews has had a severe drop in quality recently and its sad to see, they seem to be appealing to a more casual audience these days. There seems to have been a severe lack of research on Spencer's part.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

superfetch said:


> Kate Courtney to Scott


Couldn't blame her but I liked the thought of our next American hope and inspiration would be on a US brand.



superfetch said:


> Emily Batty to Specialized


Like mentioned, I just couldn't envision this. Trek and Batty just seems so natural. I look at her and her history with Trek and it just has the "franchise athlete" feel. Then again... I thought the same about Brett Favre and we see how that spiraled.



superfetch said:


> Jolanda Neff to Trek


Would love this had a TFR fan. Could signal a renewed commitment to XCO and hopefully refinement in their XC lineup, specifically the Top Fuel. Could jettison Manticon to free up some of the budget.


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## pastronef (Aug 20, 2018)

Hatherly will sign for Specialized Factory
Sam Gaze still has not signed for them for next year, maybe he's on his way out

no idea about Anton Cooper, the contracts are usually of 2 years, 2018 was his 2nd year with Trek. let's see

sponsoring news: Northwave (Cannondale Factiry shoe sponsor) still has to agree for a new contract with them for 2019


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

pastronef said:


> Hatherly will sign for Specialized Factory
> Sam Gaze still has not signed for them for next year, maybe he's on his way out
> 
> no idea about Anton Cooper, the contracts are usually of 2 years, 2018 was his 2nd year with Trek. let's see
> ...


Don't worry - Sam and Spesh sticking together - back on the MTB start line in Early Feb.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Will Kulhavy still be on the Specialized team next year? He just disappeared from the results sheet after winning Cape Epic with Howard Grotts this year.


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## jet9rdopilot (Nov 10, 2012)

Now Emily and Annika instead of duking it out on the race course will be throwing elbows in the pits.


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## winters.benjamin (Feb 3, 2016)

Thought about posting this in the 'rider down' thread, but decided it wasn't that funny.

Lesser known competitor in the UCI XCM mix, super popular in SA. Another stain on the sheets.....

https://www.bikehub.co.za/features/_/news/industry-news/max-knox-banned-for-doping-offence-r7574


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## pastronef (Aug 20, 2018)

jet9rdopilot said:


> Now Emily and Annika instead of duking it out on the race course will be throwing elbows in the pits.


you mean Batty to Specialized?


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## pastronef (Aug 20, 2018)

Stonerider said:


> Will Kulhavy still be on the Specialized team next year? He just disappeared from the results sheet after winning Cape Epic with Howard Grotts this year.


he could go Sauser´s way. and try to win more Cape Epics. and become a Specialized ambassador


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

pastronef said:


> you mean Batty to Specialized?


Not happening.


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## Afrobiker (Dec 19, 2010)

Deep Thought said:


> Not happening.


I don't see it happening either. I'm thinking more along the lines of Neff to Scott. Makes more sense.


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

Afrobiker said:


> I don't see it happening either. I'm thinking more along the lines of Neff to Scott. Makes more sense.


I don't think that's happening either.


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## pastronef (Aug 20, 2018)

Deep Thought said:


> I don't think that's happening either.


so, for now the only change is Hatherly, from Spurs team to Specialized Racing

the Cannondale trio Fumic-Marotte-Avancini, no news about them

Cooper should stay with Trek, they have the cash to keep him I think


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

pastronef said:


> Cooper should stay with Trek, they have the cash to keep him I think


He's just built up a new Trek Emonda SLR.


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## pastronef (Aug 20, 2018)

NordieBoy said:


> He's just built up a new Trek Emonda SLR.


well, that could mean nothing. riders promote their brands until Dec 31st


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Eva Lechner most have been released from her contract early. New team at the Bern CX WC today.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

I was at the CX WC in Bern yesterday, 3 U17 kids from our club raced in the U19.
As a spectator it was good racing, with the ability to see about 70% of the track from everywhere. What disappointed me was the rest of it, it was a WC so expected heaps of bikes to test (not that lm interested in CX), clothes, giveaways etc. All in all l felt let down with the rest of it, the racing was good though. Heaps of Dutch, Belgian and French, admittedly they love this stuff.

I only took a couple of U19 pics


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

Why? Specialized grinds down their athletes. As world champion she should improve her lot in life-



Renzo7 said:


> Interesting! I like Batty moving to Specialized, but I'm sad to see Kate leave.
> 
> Do you have a link to the source?
> 
> Sent from my SM-J710MN using Tapatalk


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

bootsie_cat said:


> she should improve her lot in life-


Have you seen her parents house? Not sure she needs to "improve" anything financially.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Rivet said:


> Have you seen her parents house? Not sure she needs to "improve" anything financially.


And I'm not sure why you think her parents worth is her worth, not until they die at least.


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

True fact- But I won't disparage someone for coming from a family of means.

More stating that if she could find a better contract that removes stress of contracts all the way through the Olympics- that could be a positive thing.

It is a known fact that Specialized World Cup program is super dialed- But with that comes a lot of stress. They ask a lot of their athletes off the bike, and there is much pressure to perform to keep your contract.



Rivet said:


> Have you seen her parents house? Not sure she needs to "improve" anything financially.


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

bootsie_cat said:


> Why? Specialized grinds down their athletes. As world champion she should improve her lot in life-


As someone who has only recently started to follow racing, I'm afraid that I don't know what you're talking about.

I like Specialized, and both of my mountain bikes are of that brand. She won with an Epic, and I'd like to see her racing for the brand she won on.

Of course, I'll be happy for her no matter what team she finds success with.

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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

I also like my Specialized hardtail- But I don't conflate what I like to ride with what is the best option for a team for a world champion.



Renzo7 said:


> As someone who has only recently started to follow racing, I'm afraid that I don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> I like Specialized, and both of my mountain bikes are of that brand. She won with an Epic, and I'd like to see her racing for the brand she won on.
> 
> ...


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

bootsie_cat said:


> I also like my Specialized hardtail- But I don't conflate what I like to ride with what is the best option for a team for a world champion.


I don't believe that it's the bike or team that makes the difference at this level, but the athlete and his or her skills.

I like the brand and the athlete, and seeing Kate on Specialized is something I like.

I like to see the brands and athletes I like triumph. It makes no sense to me to not want them together, but you're entitled to your own opinion. It's not like I have decision-making power over who's going to which team.

Cheers.

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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

FWIW Kate just posted a picture on Insta with her in a WC jersey WITHOUT the Specialized logo on the front just USA.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

...did have a rainbow Specialized jersey at the MTB HoF event, so who knows!


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

Renzo7 said:


> I don't believe that it's the bike or team that makes the difference at this level, but the athlete and his or her skills.


I agree. That said, a great athlete needs the support of a strong team, not only at the World Cups but also throughout a complete training and racing schedule.


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## insidertrading (Mar 12, 2018)

J-Flo said:


> I agree. That said, a great athlete needs the support of a strong team, not only at the World Cups but also throughout a complete training and racing schedule.


sometimes releasing a more 'expensive' rider from the team can make space in the budget for 2 or more entry level riders, and that can be a healthy thing for the sport as well.


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

J-Flo said:


> I agree. That said, a great athlete needs the support of a strong team, not only at the World Cups but also throughout a complete training and racing schedule.


Definitely! I meant that, at this level, most teams give their riders access to similar resources and most bikes perform very closely to each other.

I think that MTB isn't faced with the resource differences faced in road biking between Team Sky and the rest of them. Is that the case?



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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

If I were Specialized, I'd certainly try to keep Kate. I'd cut Kulhavy and add his salary to hers. Kulhavy doesn't seem capable anymore to stay motivated or healthy for an entire season. He seems to have one peak and then he's done for the rest of the season.


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## Afrobiker (Dec 19, 2010)

Stonerider said:


> If I were Specialized, I'd certainly try to keep Kate. I'd cut Kulhavy and add his salary to hers. Kulhavy doesn't seem capable anymore to stay motivated or healthy for an entire season. He seems to have one peak and then he's done for the rest of the season.


Agreed. Let him move onto road and jump around the Spesh supported teams.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Jolanda Neff is racing for Trek bikes on their Trek Factory Racing team next year. Emily Batty will remain with Trek as well for 2019.


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## chestr (Oct 15, 2016)

Trek have announced Neff will join them.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/yolanda-neff-joins-trek-factory-racing.html


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

Neff to Trek:
https://www.ride.ch/de/news/neff-faehrt-im-jahr-2019-fuer-trek


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

I like this change, good for her.


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Thanks for the link! I wish her the best luck with her new team. 

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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

Neff and Trek is a good combo.
Hopefully Kate stays with Specialized.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Team Bombshell!


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

j102 said:


> Neff and Trek is a good combo.
> Hopefully Kate stays with Specialized.


Forgive my ignorance. Does this put both of them on a FS 29er, or I wonder if Neff will be on the 17.5 29er. Either way, it will be fun to see Neff on a Top fuel. The way the bike rides will really compliment her riding style.

Or maybe none of this matters and she just rides the ProCal almost all season.

Predictions: they make her an iridescent pearl white Top fuel that she rides for 2 courses.

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## pastronef (Aug 20, 2018)

will Trek´s $$$$ for Neff mean someone will be cut? any rumors or hints about Anton Cooper?


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

FJSnoozer said:


> Forgive my ignorance. Does this put both of them on a FS 29er, or I wonder if Neff will be on the 17.5 29er. Either way, it will be fun to see Neff on a Top fuel. The way the bike rides will really compliment her riding style.
> 
> Or maybe none of this matters and she just rides the ProCal almost all season.
> 
> ...


According to IG, JoJo on 29er


__
http://instagr.am/p/BpUNmyQDjK1/

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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

pastronef said:


> will Trek´s $$$$ for Neff mean someone will be cut? any rumors or hints about Anton Cooper?


She tagged Anton on IG so I would assume he's still on board. I could see freeing up cash letting Mantecon go though.

As a Trek fan in general (not in pricing or XC development) I love this love and hope it spurs a renewed focus on the XC program and pushing the limit in product development for the team and ultimately us as the consumers and weekend racers.


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## ShortTravelMag (Dec 15, 2005)

Wow, I never imagined Neff on Trek. I picture her on Scott more than any I guess. But Neff and Batty are my 2 favorites, and I happen to have a Top Fuel, so I think it's pretty cool. I was worried Batty was leaving Trek. Seems like a good fit for her, and it would be weird seeing her on another bike after all these years. Now they need 1 more good man, Anton is cool, he's young and is going for it all the time. Don't know anything about Mantecon other than I've seen him occasionally. Maybe grab one of the up and coming super young US riders that are moving up? There's a few U23 guys that are due to joing the Elites. 

Either way, seeing Neff in front of that Top Fuel has motivated me to finally re-route my lockout cable. I have all the supplies to do it, just was waiting until fat bike season to start so I can screw it all up and not be in a hurry to get it fixed.

Going to be a great 2019 for the US XC fans. World champs, and a WC that I can actually go to. Can't wait!


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Nice, I like Jolanda in Trek.

I wonder what that will mean for Batty though. Previously she was clearly the #1 rider, now she won't be.

p.s.

I just looked at her instagram post and saw her presentation to trek in few different languages, how many does she speak???

English
Spanish
Swiss
German 
French

and there was one I couldn't figure out (dutch?).


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

FJSnoozer said:


> According to IG, JoJo on 29er
> 
> 
> __
> ...


There you go. I like the uniform and bike colors. Nice picture.


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## Boosted GP (Mar 10, 2007)

Electronic reverb dropper?


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Boosted GP said:


> Electronic reverb dropper?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, Batty tested one at MSA or at least it was put on her bike to "leak" in photos.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Anyone wanting to run their shock lockout like that on the top fuel:

1. FOX pn: 210-24-055
2. Shimano SIS derraileur cable
3. Female to female cable connector( I can mail you one free)










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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

pastronef said:


> will Trek´s $$$$ for Neff mean someone will be cut? any rumors or hints about Anton Cooper?


Grapevine is the cuts are to their DH team.


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