# ti springs: are they really worth it



## mzorich (Mar 13, 2011)

so i am in the process of specking out a new build and looking at getting a ti spring with it but is it really worth the extra 250 for one. i rode one on my first gen v10 many many years ago but i don't remember it making a huge difference. so my question is does it make a noticeable difference in the progression of the shock and how much weight is it really going to cut off the bike


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## illnotsick (Mar 28, 2011)

Confucius said: "a spring is a spring, but a lighter spring weighs less."


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

If your team manager is not including it on your 2012 race bike build up you are probably not fast enough to realize the difference.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Ti springs are "usually" more accurate - ie closer to the listed rate.
From what I remember, Steel springs can be +-10%, wheras Ti is in the range of +-1-2%.

Lighter weight.

Lower modulus - ie more springy than steel = less coils wider spaced = less chance of coil bind.

Some say that the lighter weight and lower modulus allows the spring to respond quicker, giving better chatter absorbtion.

Ti is not painted so will not chip and rust, so always looks good.

michael


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## crossup (May 13, 2009)

Ti springs also change(fatigue) a lot less with use....not using one but the day is coming


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## frorider (Apr 2, 2005)

Note that depending on the manufacturer, the actual weight of various steel springs varies, as does the weight of various Ti springs. 

in exchanging ti springs for the stock steel spring on various bikes, the actual weight saved (same stroke, same ID, same stiffness) has varied from as little as 60 g to as much as 220 g.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

Whether or not a titanium spring is worth it is totally subjective. I asked the same question this past summer and ended up going for one in the end. You might find this useful: http://forums.mtbr.com/downhill-freeride/titanium-spring-dhx-rc4-712990.html.


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## mzorich (Mar 13, 2011)

mtbnozpikr said:


> Whether or not a titanium spring is worth it is totally subjective. I asked the same question this past summer and ended up going for one in the end. You might find this useful: http://forums.mtbr.com/downhill-freeride/titanium-spring-dhx-rc4-712990.html.


did you end up noticing anything different with how the back end felt.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Despite what many say, you cannot tell a difference in the actuation of the suspension / shock due to the ti spring alone. 

It all comes down to the weight savings on the bike as a whole. The main thing here is that unlike other areas on the bike where you try to save weight, there is no downside to a ti spring aside from cost. Its not like a lighter wheelset thats maybe not as strong. And you can save half a pound over a steel spring.

So, just determine if the cost to weight saving is worth it to you.

I run ti springs on my coil sprung bikes (DH), so it is worth it to me.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

mzorich said:


> did you end up noticing anything different with how the back end felt.


Nope, not really. You're going to feel more from the way you tune your shock than from the material your spring is made out of.


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## stuffshredman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ti springs are all about weight savings and sex appeal.

I run Ti on my Uzzi.

I'm slim and sexy.
:ihih: grrrr


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

stuffshredman said:


> Ti springs are all about weight savings and sex appeal.
> 
> I run Ti on my Uzzi.
> 
> ...


I am bringing sexy back


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

mzorich said:


> Are Ti springs worth it?


Only after you've settled on the correct spring rate. It would suck to spend all that loot only to decide it's the wrong stiffness. Ti springs are sometimes available in smaller increments than steel which is helpful if a 400 feels too soft and a 450 too stiff.


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## tmarkos (Jan 18, 2008)

I'd go ti if I found a spring for cheap, like $100. Ain't paying $250.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

tmarkos said:


> I'd go ti if I found a spring for cheap, like $100. Ain't paying $250.


Keep your eyes open, they surface for around $100 from time to time.


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## mzorich (Mar 13, 2011)

its not something i am going to wait for. i am getting my turner built by fanatic so i am just going to go ahead and do it. they have all my specs and are going to ball park tune my suspension for me so i might as well get he rear shock pre dialed in with the ti spring on it.


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## illnotsick (Mar 28, 2011)

Air is lighter than Titanium last I heard. Get a vivid air if you want magic between your legs.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

mzorich said:


> its not something i am going to wait for. i am getting my turner built by fanatic so i am just going to go ahead and do it. they have all my specs and are going to ball park tune my suspension for me so i might as well get he rear shock pre dialed in with the ti spring on it.


Yikes. You're gonna pay for a Ti spring on a bike you've never ridden. The shock will come with a steel spring so why not ride that and be sure of your spring rate before paying for Ti? Also, like the guy above me said the Vivid Air is lighter. I really like mine and being able to easily fine tune the spring rate is a nice bonus.


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## mzorich (Mar 13, 2011)

Lelandjt said:


> Yikes. You're gonna pay for a Ti spring on a bike you've never ridden. The shock will come with a steel spring so why not ride that and be sure of your spring rate before paying for Ti? Also, like the guy above me said the Vivid Air is lighter. I really like mine and being able to easily fine tune the spring rate is a nice bonus.


the guys at the shop are very sure of what spring rate i need. i am not a big fan of the vivid air. if anything i would get a ccdb air in a year or so once they are tested some more. air shocks as well are not the best set up for the types of trails we have up here in the mountains or norcal. its very rocky and i have ridden a few vivid airs have the sensitivity needed for trails around here.


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

lots of myths about Ti springs are hard to kill. As others have already said, except for the effects of the slightly reduced unsprung mass, a Ti spring will not feel any different or more "responsive" than a steel spring. A spring is a spring.

The other myth is about fatigue. A coil spring does NOT become "softer" due to fatigue, no matter what metal it is made of. It is physically impossible, metal can not change its E-modulus. Springs become shorter due to fatigue, but not softer (until they actually snap...). 
To compensate, one can simply wind in the preload a bit more as the spring ages. The spring rate stays the same.



> the guys at the shop are very sure of what spring rate i need.


OMG. Are they going to pay for the spring if they are wrong?


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

lelebebbel summed it up pretty well. The effect on unsprung mass will be so small you wont notice it, the weight savings will be tiny, and it wont feel magically different. The main reason to get one is if you've dialed out your suspension to the point where you know exactly what springweight you need. Since steel springs are typically not made to tolerances as ti springs, it can be easier to find your exact springweight. With steel springs, your springweight can vary 10% from what it actually says. A 450 lb spring can vary +-45lbs. So while it says 450 lbs, you could be on a 405lb spring or a 495 lb spring. Which, obviously, is a pretty big difference. Typically you wont see THAT much variation in a steel spring, but TI springs are normally higher tolerance, and +-5% rather then 10. Main benefit, right there. If somebody talks about how they could feel a big difference, its not because of the material, its because they're riding different springrates. Also, a few of them come in 25lb increments which is really useful for those low leverage bikes out there. 

Also, you're not going to get more life out of a ti spring. They snap way more frequently (because they have fewer coils) then steel springs do. 

Of course, you can get around this if you have access to a spring tester, such as most moto shops, and you can simply have them test your spring if you're curious. The moral is, if you're having trouble dialing in your springweight a ti spring can be the way to go, and if you absolutely need to shave every last gram, it can be the way to go.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

spray paint it black, so sexy


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## illnotsick (Mar 28, 2011)

mzorich said:


> the guys at the shop are very sure of what spring rate i need. i am not a big fan of the vivid air. if anything i would get a ccdb air in a year or so once they are tested some more. air shocks as well are not the best set up for the types of trails we have up here in the mountains or norcal. its very rocky and i have ridden a few vivid airs have the sensitivity needed for trails around here.


My vivid air handles rocks fine, but slo probably isn't that rocky  It's been on every type of terrain on a v10 and I don't have a single complaint. Air shocks handle every type of terrain since they have the same damping as a regular vivid and an infinitely adjustable spring rate. My coil shock with 450 and 500lb springs a lot less versatile. How do you know you like the ccdb air having never ridden it? 
I'm saying it again, a Ti spring is a waste of money. Use $280 to buy tubeless rims and tires, or new brakes, carbon handle bars/seat post, cranks. Those actually offer a performance advantage with a weight decrease.


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## azdog (Nov 16, 2004)

Yup, If I didn't get a good deal I would have never bought one. Unfortunately since I changed the travel setting on my 951, I no longer need it since I had to go up in lbs. Gonna sell it so I can get 823's!!!


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## mzorich (Mar 13, 2011)

illnotsick said:


> . Use $280 to buy tubeless rims and tires, or new brakes, carbon handle bars/seat post, cranks. Those actually offer a performance advantage with a weight decrease.


the bike is already going to be running deemax ultimate rims and a full saint components kit so not much i can do at that point.

i also don't know if i will like the ccdb air but i know i love the reg double barrel so if i were to run an air shock that would be the one i would get. i am also not a fan what so ever of rock shox even fork i have owned has been nothing but high maintenance.


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

They reduce unsprung weight by up to a 1/4 pound. I'd say the $240 it'll cost to do that is worth it considering that on a dh bike and the beefiness of parts it'll generally cost more to take that much weight off and require a lot more work to do so.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

I came in this thread prepared to facepalm at the responses but everyone surprised me. Normally it turns into a debate about how much more plush people think ti springs are which is complete bullsh1t. Seems that myth is being dispelled, thank god.


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## Uncle Six Pack (Aug 29, 2004)

Lelandjt said:


> Yikes. You're gonna pay for a Ti spring on a bike you've never ridden. The shock will come with a steel spring so why not ride that and be sure of your spring rate before paying for Ti?


this.


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

his dudeness said:


> They reduce unsprung weight by up to a 1/4 pound. I'd say the $240 it'll cost to do that is worth it considering that on a dh bike and the beefiness of parts it'll generally cost more to take that much weight off and require a lot more work to do so.


well, kind of. 
First of all, one end of the spring never moves, so it is only partially unsprung weight. Also, the spring doesn't move very much - or fast, compared to, say, the rear wheel. For example, on a typical DH bike with, say, 3:1 leverage, if the rear wheel takes a hit and moves 6 Inches at 60 fps, the spring will only compress by 2 Inches, at 20 fps. Reducing the weight of the rear wheel by 1/4lbs will make a much, much more noticable difference than a Ti spring.

The advantage of a Ti spring is that it reduces weight without compromising durability (at least in the short term, and when using a good quality Ti spring)


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

mzorich said:


> the guys at the shop are very sure of what spring rate i need. i am not a big fan of the vivid air. if anything i would get a ccdb air in a year or so once they are tested some more. air shocks as well are not the best set up for the types of trails we have up here in the mountains or norcal. its very rocky and i have ridden a few vivid airs have the sensitivity needed for trails around here.


Where in Norcal are you? I can almost guarantee that an air shock will work where you are


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## tls36 (Dec 10, 2005)

I felt the Ti spring I had on my AS-X made a noticeable difference on how quickly the shock responded, more responsive springy feel. The weight savings on my 500 DSP was just under half a pound. I plan on getting one for my new SX. Hope this helps.............


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## crossup (May 13, 2009)

I guess my mistake was using manufacturers claims 

Heres some fodder for the discussion:
RCS says:
"Additionally, they are designed within the material stress limits to resist set. This means that once the suspension preload is “dialed” it will stay that way, not sag, as overstressed steel spring are prone to do. RCS titanium springs, are simply a superior product utilizing high-grade materials and sophisticated design techniques."

Otainium says:
"A longer lasting spring that will hold spring rate and outlast a steel spring"

DSP says:
"SpringTime Titanium Spring fatigue life is 6 times better than a Yamaha stock spring." 

Nukeproof says:
"Ti coils are lighter than steel, with lower mass meaning Ti springs are more responsive than steel for improved traction; titanium construction means the best strength-to-weight ration of any metal out there and a significantly longer fatigue life means our Shockwave springs will long outlast the competition."


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

Marketing claims should never be relied on, especially in the cycling world which seems to be more full of bollocks than most other industries.

Here's an article that talks about motorcycle springs. Closely related, if not identical to mountain biking: springs

The interesting points are that they are talking about fatigue cycles, and they make the point that if a steel spring is operating under its design parameters it will effectively never fail. The article also states that this is not the case for Ti, which will continue to fatigue to failure (though presumably with a well designed Ti spring this rate would so high as to be irrelevant).


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## macming (Oct 31, 2004)

If the cost doesn't bother you and you have the rest of the bike dialed, I don't see why you shouldn't get one. I had 3 ti coils and I don't regret getting them!


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

Edited: 1/4 to 1/2 pound ti coil weight savings is pretty significant for very long climbs, with other weight savings.

My ti coils have cut about 1/3 off the weight of steel for smaller trail bike coils.

More weight can be dropped for climbing from frame, wheels, and cranks.

But unless competing for pro class DH podium, then ti has no real DH performance value, IMO.


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## mzorich (Mar 13, 2011)

his dudeness said:


> Where in Norcal are you? I can almost guarantee that an air shock will work where you are


i live in the bay area which an air shock is fine but i do almost all my dh riding around tahoe, auburn and grass valley which the trails as you may or may not know can get very very choppy.

the whole thing with an air shock is just not going to happen for me at the moment. i don't think air shocks are where they should be at for dh yet and i don't feel like i get the response from the shock i like with them when ridding dh. maybe some day i will buy one for my own bike but the time is just not right yet.


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## JMUSuperman (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm running a Ti spring on my Delerium T and my Session 88, both were lighter than the steel springs they replaced. I feel like both bikes work better with them, but that could certainly be the weight savings combined with having a spring that is exactly what I should have for my weight (versus the possibility of being 10% off for the steel). Would I do it again? Yes.

Not to derail the thread, but I can't stand always adjusting the air on my bikes with air shocks. It seems like it hardly ever feels the same when I jump on it. It seems to vary how good it feels based on weather, moon cycle, if I finished my fries at lunch, and if I'm going with a camelback or not. The coil shocks always seem to feel perfect (even more so now with the Ti springs).


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

derby said:


> 1/2 to 1 pound ti coil weight savings is pretty significant for very long climbs, with other weight savings.
> 
> More weight can be dropped for climbing from frame, wheels, and cranks.
> 
> But unless competing for pro class DH podium, then ti has no real DH performance value, IMO.


Except that you won't save 1 pound.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

my steel spring weighs somewhere right around ~400g. I'd be impressed if I could save over 400g by switching to ti.


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## mzorich (Mar 13, 2011)

William42 said:


> my steel spring weighs somewhere right around ~400g. I'd be impressed if I could save over 400g by switching to ti.


if your spring weighs 400g right now how will switching to a ti spring save you 400g. does the ti spring your looking at weigh 0g cuz if it does give me the link to that company


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

mzorich said:


> if your spring weighs 400g right now how will switching to a ti spring save you 400g. does the ti spring your looking at weigh 0g cuz if it does give me the link to that company


I think the sarcasm was missed...


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

mtbnozpikr said:


> I think the sarcasm was missed...


I was gonna point that out, but you beat me to it!


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

I don't think the sarcasm was missed... I think he just wants the same magic "spring that weighs nothing" that I do. Sadly, I just can't remember the link to that companies website...


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Linquan .. they're real hush hush


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

William42 said:


> I don't think the sarcasm was missed... I think he just wants the same magic "spring that weighs nothing" that I do. Sadly, I just can't remember the link to that companies website...


springs that weigh nothing eh?

I have one 

(In fact I'm breathing some of that springiness right now!)


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