# Why does Motobecane have to get such a bad rap?



## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

I am trying to understand why Motobecane is thought of by some as the lower rung of the MTB ladder.Is it a status thing? That people of a particular income level wouldn't ride one because of their positions in society? Or is it that thet are just not good bikes? How do Motos compare to big name bikes? Are they just as good? Do they provide people with not a lot of money to spend with a great deal? If that's the case, why aren't they more recommended?


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## kolyan2k (May 31, 2008)

IBEX is one of those companies too.

In wikipedia it states that MotobecaneUSA frames are made by Kinesis. Which: "Major Customers include Diamondback, Felt, GT, Schwinn, Jamis, K2, Raleigh, Trek, and Kona."

You have no idea how much money a company can save by doing internet sales only (or mostly internet sales). Thats why IBEX and MotobecaneUSA can bring their prices down. I learned this with my Audio/Video gear, exactly the same thing.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

kolyan2k said:


> IBEX is one of those companies too.
> 
> In wikipedia is states that MotobecaneUSA frames are made by Kinesis. Which: "Major Customers include Diamondback, Felt, GT, Schwinn, Jamis, K2, Raleigh, Trek, and Kona."
> 
> You have no idea how much money a company can save by doing internet sales only (or mostly internet sales). Thats why IBEX and MotobecaneUSA can bring their prices down. I learned this with my Audio/Video gear, exactly the same thing.


what website do I go to get that info?


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## kolyan2k (May 31, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motobecane_USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_Industry_Co._Ltd.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

zarr said:


> I am trying to understand why Motobecane is thought of by some as the lower rung of the MTB ladder.Is it a status thing? That people of a particular income level wouldn't ride one because of their positions in society? Or is it that thet are just not good bikes? How do Motos compare to big name bikes? Are they just as good? Do they provide people with not a lot of money to spend with a great deal? If that's the case, why aren't they more recommended?


I have no issue with bikesdirect.com bikes, (just bought a used Windsor road bike for the GF), but what i find rather cheesey is that they use the Motobecane name and even used the "since 1937" (or whatever year) in their advertisements when they have NO relation to he legendary Motobecane that we all knew. It would just seem a lot more honest if they owned up to the fact that these are their bikes (like in the case of Ibex) rather than concocting these stupid stories about these deals they have with Motobecane, making it sound like they are a different company than bikesdirect, hoping those out of the know with think they are getting an actual "Motobecane" bike.

I think if you know what you are buying and can thoroughly go over and re-build the bike when you get it, then bikesdirect can be a good deal.


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## kolyan2k (May 31, 2008)

ps. of course if someone purchases a $3000 bike, he will tell you that your $1000 dollar Motobecane is a piece of sh1t


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

kolyan2k said:


> ps. of course if someone purchases a $3000 bike, he will tell you that your $1000 dollar Motobecane is a piece of sh1t


Ha Ha Ha Ha .


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

1. Motobecane has no affiliation with the "real" Motobecane. I agree with the above poster. It is kind of cheesy to license a name from a defunct company and then slap it on your generic bikes. Why not come up with your own name rather than try to trick people into thinking your company is a well respected bike manufacturer.

2. The bikes are cheap for the components on them, so people assume the frames must be cheap.

3. The frames tend to use very simple and dated designs. For instance my Fly frame is a very simple desgin. The tubes are all straight and none of them are multi-shaped. My Jamis frame is also made by Kinesis, but it is a much more modern design than is the Fly. That is not to say they aren't quality frames, because Kinesis is a great frame maker. Its just the Moto frames aren't exactly "cutting edge".

4. It really is just a generic bike. It will never have the "bling" of a Turner or other boutique name, or even the big manufactureres like Cannondale and Trek.

None of these things really bother me, mainly because I paid $1299 for my Fly, which is less than the components alone would cost. What does bother me is how difficult it is to get warranty coverage. If the frame is damaged they require you to ship (at your cost) the entire bike to Texas so they can inspect it. This is because in most places they do not have dealers to inspect the bike.


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## rlouder (Jun 26, 2007)

I look for brands that offer the most value, regardless of the name. I looked at the Motos when buying but bought a Forge because it seemed like a better value to me. As I get older, branding isn't nearly as important to me. I own a Mahindra tractor because I think it's offers the best value, but I doubt any John Deere owners would even consider one.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

kolyan2k said:


> ps. of course if someone purchases a $3000 bike, he will tell you that your $1000 dollar Motobecane is a piece of sh1t


This statement is just not true of everyone. There is no bad bike if it reliably fills a need, fits a budget, and is fun to ride.

zarr---your comment to this disappoints me.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> This statement is just not true of everyone. .


Yeah, really. I have over $3000 in my bike and I have no problems recommending a $500 one. I think there is some projecting going on in that statement.


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## SlimTwisted (Jun 14, 2006)

It really depends on who you talk to- an educated mountain bike consumer will realize that these frames are literally being produced in the same factory as some of the typically higher regarded brands and outfitted with identical components.
The idea of paying more for a sticker on the downtube is pretty silly if you think about it.
The real benefit to the other brands is LBS support- For those of us efficient in bike assembly/ tuning, ordering direct from the brands mentioned is a no brainer. For beginners or those unsure of their mechanical abilities, paying a little more to have an international dealer network makes more sense.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Just got back from my 5th weekend in a row MTB'ing on my Pro29er, my youngest son rides a Windsor. They are decent bikes with all the same issues as an LBS bike. If you really go MTB'ing, the wheels will die very quickly. I did upgrade the wheels and brakes. My older son's LBS bike wheels didn't make it one weekend, the Moto and Windsor were good for a few hard rides  

The frame thing isn't an issue for me, I don't really care if my bike weighs 10oz less because a couple of tubes have groovy shapes. The Pro29 frame has square seat/chainstays and the downtube is oval at the BB. The Windsor has an oval downtube at the BB too. These frames are stiff, that's what I wanted. I have a front shock and big tires for suspension :thumbsup:


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

I think you have to ask what "value" really is. There are people (most of them in fact) that think shopping in some bigbox retailer and buying massive amounts of crap is better than purchasing less of a quality good that will last longer. If they can get the "same" thing for $5 less then that's where they will buy it. And that's all that matters.

The economy is competitive enough to bring everyone up to the same level of efficiency. If somebody else's prices are lower it's not because the "flashy brands" are trying to rip you off. It's because the discounter has either cut corners on the product or service.

In the case of Motobecane you have an online only retailer who doesn't let you test ride and hits you with the shipping charges if you need a return. At the LBS one does not pay $100 for shipping a warranty replacement. There's no service network available locally, you have to pay for that out of pocket. There's not much in engineering, their suspension and frame designs are yesterday's news. And there is less in terms of customer service as I've seen enough posts of people complaining that they are getting no response.

So there's your savings right there. Same bike, possibly made in the same factory using possibly the same name brand components. They don't have to give a dealership their cut for service, spend any money at all in R&D and ding the customer for handling their returns. If you need any of this expect the bike to cost the same or more.

As for comparing themselves to the big boys my Gary Fisher says "Made in the USA" on it's frame. Just because some brands make their stuff in Taiwan at generic factories doesn't mean every bike at the LBS adheres to the same.

Giant is made in Taiwan too. But you'd be a total fool to expect that a bargain bike pedals and performs as well as a Maestro link suspension. Just like you'd be a fool to expect your Hyundai to be as fun to drive as a BMW M-series.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Deme Moore said:


> ...my Gary Fisher says "Made in the USA" on it's frame....


Which piece of your trek was made in the USA?

DM, just for our infomation, what kind of car do you drive? What kind of computer and cellular phone do you own? Are the labels on your clothes just as important as comfort?


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## mtbikernc69 (Mar 23, 2004)

ljsmith said:


> 1. Motobecane has no affiliation with the "real" Motobecane. I agree with the above poster. It is kind of cheesy to license a name from a defunct company and then slap it on your generic bikes. Why not come up with your own name rather than try to trick people into thinking your company is a well respected bike manufacturer.


Isn't that what Pacific Cycles did with Schwinn?!?!


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

mtbikernc69 said:


> Isn't that what Pacific Cycles did with Schwinn?!?!


I'm not familiar with those details, but I thought Pacific Cycles bought the company, not just the name. I could be mistaken.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

kapusta said:


> I'm not familiar with those details, but I thought Pacific Cycles bought the company, not just the name. I could be mistaken.


And, Pacific Cycles doesn't seem to be trying to say that Schwinn bikes are something that they are not.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> This statement is just not true of everyone. There is no bad bike if it reliably fills a need, fits a budget, and is fun to ride.
> 
> zarr---your comment to this disappoints me.


It's true that this statement is not true for everyone.But for the ones that it is true for, my comment remains the same.


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## tduro (Jan 2, 2007)

It's not about showing off your bike, it's about showing off how much money you're willing to blow on a bike. After all, MTB'ers are consumers like everyone else. Look at some of the other ridiculous things people blow money on, just to show off. Of course, they're free to do so if they wish. And the rest of us are free to laugh at them if we wish.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

tduro said:


> It's not about showing off your bike, it's about showing off how much money you're willing to blow on a bike. After all, MTB'ers are consumers like everyone else. Look at some of the other ridiculous things people blow money on, just to show off. Of course, they're free to do so if they wish. And the rest of us are free to laugh at them if we wish.


Can I laugh at your post?


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> This statement is just not true of everyone. There is no bad bike if it reliably fills a need, fits a budget, and is fun to ride.
> 
> zarr---your comment to this disappoints me.


Sorry I didn't clarify my comment, Noobi. What I meant was I don't like it when people make fun of someone elses' ride because it isn't as state of the art and expensive as theirs'. You know that ain't right. ---zarr


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

zarr said:


> Sorry I didn't clarify my comment, Noobi. What I meant was I don't like it when people make fun of someone elses' ride because it isn't as state of the art and expensive as theirs'. You know that ain't right. ---zarr


I agree.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> I agree.


And let the force be with you.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 18, 2007)

For the record I ride an Ibex Atlas..sweet bike! So I am all for companies like Ibex and Bikes Direct selling direct to the customer bypassing the bike shop to save us some cash. I have put a bunch of upgrades into my Atlas (145mm Nixon Super fork, Fox DHX 5 coil shock, & Joplin Adjustable seat post). The cost of the bike and the cost of all of those upgrades puts me at about $1800 total with the aid of a few sales here and there. A bike from a shop with similar specs would run about $3000 or more. Plus the bike rode great stock. Many riding partners with boutique bikes gave me a wierd look when I got the Ibex. But after they rode it they were all impressed. Now I am not saying it is on par with a Santa Cruz or Turner. But I will put it on par with any single pivot by the major brands commonly found at a LBS.

Now my only issue with Bikes Direct is that many of there builds seem to be very unbalanced. They will throw a couple of high end Der's on a bike with many other low end parts. Uneducated customers see that the bike has XT der's and they assume the rest of the bikes components are of the same level. But other than that the bikes are still a great deal. If these companies get more people on bikes that other wise couldn't afford a quality bike is that a bad thing? These companies may also be a gatway to get riders into the high end stuff. I for one see myself myself on a Santa Cruz Blur in a couple of years. Unless of course Ibex comes out with a really sweet new Atlas or new offering that peaks my interest.


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## tduro (Jan 2, 2007)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Can I laugh at your post?


Of course! Be my guest!


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## kolyan2k (May 31, 2008)

zarr said:


> It's true that this statement is not true for everyone.But for the ones that it is true for, my comment remains the same.


..... +1


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> Which piece of your trek was made in the USA?
> 
> DM, just for our infomation, what kind of car do you drive? What kind of computer and cellular phone do you own? Are the labels on your clothes just as important as comfort?


It seems you're quite keen on dissing people for being "brand whores". Fortunately I have a label for you to wear "ignorant cheapskate".

In comparison to a Motobecane I actually test rode my Fisher before I bought it. Important to me. With Moto you have to pay $100 return shipping. Maybe not important to you. You ride "whatever".

If something breaks the dealer changes it out. Will Motobecane give you a new frame without sending your old bike back? How much do they charge to ship it?

LBS bikes are a pretty good deal for most consumers. In fact I challenge you to find anything that is cheaper than my Fisher, has a modern full suspension and 29" wheels.

Now if you don't mind riding generic designs, dealing with spotty customer service, having to ship heavy objects back-n-forth and can competently turn your own wrench then yeah, I'd say buying online bikes will save you some bucks. And for some folks this is key.

But the moment you have to pay for one service or return to sender.... poof there goes your savings! That's where we get the phrase "pennywise, pound foolish".


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## rlouder (Jun 26, 2007)

Deme Moore said:


> It's because the discounter has either cut corners on the product or service.


or is using a less expensive manufacturing process and/or sales and distribution channel.

Nobody is going to argue that part of higher lbs price is not service, and no one expects a $300 direct bike to be as good as a $3000 lbs bike. You make some good points, though.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Deme Moore said:


> ...I actually test rode my Fisher before I bought it....


Come for a test ride with me and my boys, we'll show you how to actual use your bike. Since it's a Scary Fisher, you can bet riding with us will let you test ride your warrentee too. Now go back to waxing your Apples and Bimmers, this thread is for riders.


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## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

Eh, the correct term would be Macs.

No one says Apples anymore.

- Rabidweasel, Card-Carrying Mac Whore


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Dude.I hope you guys don't turn this thread into a slugfest.:eekster: The moderators will shut it down.Please don't !


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## rlouder (Jun 26, 2007)

Deme Moore said:


> It seems you're quite keen on dissing people for being "brand whores". Fortunately I have a label for you to wear *"ignorant cheapskate"*.


Is that the same as informed consumer? frugal? conservative? not living beyond one's means? If so, that fits me, too.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

rabidweasel999 said:


> Eh, the correct term would be Macs....


My boys could also help you run Windows and sync a $100 CE phone to outlook, they don't know it takes $1500 to do that


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## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

But why the hell would you want to run that abomination of an operating system?

I could use Parallels, an ancient copy of VPC, Boot Camp, or even VMware Fusion if I decided to, though. Or I could just use a PC.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

*Special request*

Guys, I started this thread to try to help some folks enjoy MTB who really couldn't afford a real expensive bike, but still deserve to have all the fun they deserve.If you have to say harsh things, please private message each other so the moderators won't shut the thread down before it's positive message can reach who may need it. Thanks Guys.---zarr


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## Keatan (Apr 23, 2008)

I don't have a problem with Motobecane (Though the name thing is a bit cheesey). The reason I don't ride their bikes is that fit is the most important factor when buying a bike. If my LBS had one sitting out used or there was one on craigslist then I would be interested. The idea of buying a bike size based on a sizing chart just doesn't fit well with me.


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## Keatan (Apr 23, 2008)

Oh and please excuse the pun.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

zarr said:


> I am trying to understand why Motobecane is thought of by some as the lower rung of the MTB ladder.Is it a status thing? That people of a particular income level wouldn't ride one because of their positions in society? Or is it that thet are just not good bikes? How do Motos compare to big name bikes? Are they just as good? Do they provide people with not a lot of money to spend with a great deal? If that's the case, why aren't they more recommended?


I can answer this fairly easily:

1 - there is some status issues in MTB - but not as much as road; however, those that think Motobecane is a 'lower rung' brand are not informed on how bikes are made nor on the national sales levels of different brands

2 - Income of buyers is not related to who rides Motobecanes. In fact, lots of our customers are rather high income individuals. Many just figure they would prefer to have one XTR Ti hardtail AND one Dura-Ace CF Road bike for the same money as getting only one such bike at a shop. [although many of our buyers are pressed for money; lots of 'rich' people are careful with how they spend their money]

3 - Motobecane bikes are the exact same quality as bikes from Fisher, Specialized, Fuji, Giant, Felt, Jamies or whoever one might consider 'big' names. And Motobecane outsells many brands that some might consider 'big names'. One difference is that no Motobecane is made in China; whereas most companies use China on lower end and Taiwan on upper end. That said: Trek, Specialized, Fisher, Cannondale, etc use Giant, Merida, and Ideal for their bikes from China and all three of these factories are very good.

4 - People reccomend bikes for many reasons; and lots of people people do reccommend Motobecane. However, many posters on forums are in the business and their posts have an agenda. And many riders reccommend only what they have or have riden. Our sales, by the way, are close to 50% of refferals from previous customers. Part of the reason we can never get enough higher end bikes.

There are lots of great bikes offered in the USA
And lots of great choices of where to buy [LBS, Sporting Goods Stores, and on-line]
Choice is a good thing
I like choices


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## tlcrouch355 (Aug 2, 2008)

Good Points Mike.


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## [email protected] (Apr 18, 2006)

Motobecane, like Schwinn or Windsor had a legacy behind their name for high quality bikes. The brand name had value, so it was sold in bankruptcy court for "x" amount of dollars. It is difficult for a start up company to get brand recognition, this was an easy way for companies to get it. 

The best advise is just keep riding. You have to start riding on something and likely it isn't going to be a high end bike, but a starter bike. If your spending under $600 a bicycle and the online deal gives you a good components for the dollar, then that seems reasonable. However, when you need service you may need to go to the local shop. The bike shop isn't going to like the Motobecane because they lost the sale. As you ride more, you may realize the beneifts of good service and trust built with your local bike shop may be beneficial in the long run. If your next bike is over a grand or two, the benefit of saving a $100 or so for a specific level of components isn't as critical as knowing you have a dealer as your advocate to the manufacturer to fully stand behind the product they are selling you. 

Get out and ride. I should do likewise.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> However, when you need service you may need to go to the local shop. The bike shop isn't going to like the Motobecane because they lost the sale. As you ride more, you may realize the beneifts of good service and trust built with your local bike shop may be beneficial in the long run. .


Any shop that treats you different becuase you didn't get your bike there isn't worth a damn! and they don't deserve your business to begin with.

I ride an Ibex and my wife rides a Marin. Our bike shop does not sell Marin and they treat us great:thumbsup: That is the sign of a great shop.


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## opivyattack (May 30, 2006)

Keatan said:


> I don't have a problem with Motobecane (Though the name thing is a bit cheesey). The reason I don't ride their bikes is that fit is the most important factor when buying a bike. If my LBS had one sitting out used or there was one on craigslist then I would be interested. The idea of buying a bike size based on a sizing chart just doesn't fit well with me.


In a sense this post is wrong. There are actually places that you can see, touch, and smell motobecane bikes in person before buying. You might be correct in that they might not be near you but it is untrue that a person cannot see the bike first.

The other thing is that fit basically means one thing, geometry. Okay well two things, geometry and frame size. As long as you know what type of geometry you're looking for then you shouldn't even need to get on the bike. You should know that it's going to fit well and it should.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> . If your next bike is over a grand or two, the benefit of saving a $100 or so for a specific level of components isn't as critical as knowing you have a dealer as your advocate to the manufacturer to fully stand behind the product they are selling you.
> 
> .


I think you left off a zero
Buyers save a lot more than $100 on high end bikes by buying online
I fact many save way over $1000 compared to buying in most shops [or else high end bikes would not sell well online]

Everyone must determine the value of buying online vs in a shop
But do not count on a dealer as being your 'advocate' with the manufacturer -- as that is not needed. And I would not count on special service either in most areas; some dealers are better than others on service after the sale; however most view servicing bikes of all brands as an income source. {my shops do free service for life on bikes sold in my shops ~~ but few dealers do that}

again
there is a place for all quality brands of bikes
and for all types of sellers
I like choices


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## Call_me_Al (May 31, 2008)

All I know is that I hate Specialized.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

> In a sense this post is wrong. There are actually places that you can see, touch, and smell motobecane bikes in person before buying. You might be correct in that they might not be near you but it is untrue that a person cannot see the bike first.


My understanding is that a small handfull of bike shops (the ones owned by bikesdirest) carrry Motobecane. For at least 95+% of the buying public, they will not see one in the flesh at a store.


> The other thing is that fit basically means one thing, geometry. Okay well two things, geometry and frame size. As long as you know what type of geometry you're looking for then you shouldn't even need to get on the bike. You should know that it's going to fit well and it should.


That's true in theory, but not reality. When I was looking at their road bikes, some of the links for geometry lead to charts with titles indicating a different bike. Of course, many manufacturer's websites are sometimes unclear about geometry, and even when they are clear, not everyone even measures things the same. You can't always go by these numbers. I am very tuned into my sizing needs, and I have still been surprised by a few bikes I bought, going by posted geometry numbers.

Even when all the numbers are accurate and clear, I think few people really understand all the nuances in the numbers. Most people think they can look at the head angle, effective top tube, and standover numbers and know how the bike is going to fit, but it doesn't work that way.

Then again, some people are just not that sensitive to fit, so it may not matter, as long as it is in the right ballpark.


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## Gary H (Dec 16, 2006)

I could never understand why people care what others ride. If you like, buy it and ride it!


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> I can answer this fairly easily:
> 
> 3 - Motobecane bikes are the exact same quality as bikes from Fisher, Specialized, Fuji, Giant, Felt, Jamies or whoever one might consider 'big' names. And Motobecane outsells many brands that some might consider 'big names'. One difference is that no Motobecane is made in China; whereas most companies use China on lower end and Taiwan on upper end. That said: Trek, Specialized, Fisher, Cannondale, etc use Giant, Merida, and Ideal for their bikes from China and all three of these factories are very good.


Mike,
I have some questions:

1- If your bikes are made by Kenesis, how can you say they are the exact same quality as bikes made by other manufacturer's factories? Everybody knows that there are different quality levels coming out of all the bike factories. To say that your bikes are the exact same quality level you would have to know every quality level(including manufacturing processes and materials used) from all of the factories. I doubt you could even (truthfully) say that your bikes are the exact same quality as the other "big" brands coming out of Kenesis.

2- Can you name just one of the "Big Names" that your bikes outsell? It would be nice to be able to compare apples to apples.

3- Are you saying that everything manufactured in China is low quality and everything manufactured in Taiwan is high quality? I don't think so, but would like to see some facts to back up your statement.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

> 1- If your bikes are made by Kenesis, how can you say they are the exact same quality as bikes made by other manufacturer's factories?


By comparing the frames themselves and seeing how they have held up over time. Not saying I agree or disagree about them being the same quality, but it would not be that hard to tell.



> 3- Are you saying that everything manufactured in China is low quality and everything manufactured in Tiawan is high quality?


No, he did not.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

kapusta said:


> By comparing the frames themselves and seeing how they have held up over time. Not saying I agree or disagree about them being the same quality, but it would not be that hard to tell.
> 
> ----------------He said "EXACT", so yes it would be that hard to tell.
> 
> ...


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## [email protected] (Apr 18, 2006)

No harm, no foul. 

I didn't know bikes direct was monitoring the MTBR site for bad PR  ... it cracked me up that you responded. Bad PR isn't m intent. Schwinn sells nice bikes down at the local Performance Bike Shop. On the other hand, I'm not impressed with the Schwinn's I've helped neighbor hood kid fix that was purchased at the local WalMart, but understand the economics and role of WalMart is allowing more kids the opportunity to ride their very own bike. I've looked at your bikes direct site and see you have some really good values along with some what I'd call average pricing. There are good values at the local bike shops (LBS) or at the chain store like the Performance Bike Center near me. I didn't say you were not competitive, but just to carefully consder the type of service and options you want when you purchase a bike. 

Bikes Direct is tailored for someone seeking the best price and may be willing to give up some of the first hand service a local shop offers. For example, Bike Direct doesnt' organize Thursday night rides or bring food and drinks to the weekend mountain bike race. 
Or, if you need a quick little adjustment to the gears. If your good with a wrench, you may not need the service/ maintenace benefits of a LBS

The LBS isn't going to be Motobecane prejudice because they will fix anything. In fact, my guess is they fix more bikes from WalMart and Costco in a day than they sell in a week. I think Bikes Direct has a role in the Market Place and can offer sizing options that big box stores don't even touch. 

Every business has its place. The key is will Bikes Direct continue to offer great service and hold up the Motobecane name.


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## nico2me (Feb 9, 2007)

As you ride more said:


> True, very true. Then again, if you know exactly what you are buying, purchasing online is a great way to save money. As other people mentioned, if you're good with tools and can build/rebuild a bike yourself, buying a bike online is great. But if you are not mechanically inclined and will need assistance everytime something goes wrong with your bike, then buying from a LBS is your best bet. That's when the savings you get by buying online would not make any sense.


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## grnxb (Jan 8, 2006)

Looking back at the OP's initial question--

I think it may have something to do cognitive dissonance (for psych majors- please feel free to correct me). You know, if you buy something that is $50 and someone else buys something similar for $20, the $20 item must be inferior as it substantially less and it hurts/is uncomfortable if someone got a better deal than you.

Regardless- If you've got the money, buy what you like.


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## tomsmoto (Oct 6, 2007)

i consider design a HUGE part of "quality". i want a bike that rides great, i expect every bike i look at not to break.. but im going to ride the one thats designed better than the rest.

motobecanes are generic designs that work good enough. its not going to pedal like a VPP/maestro/dw/fsr/etc bike.. some people care, some dont. they're "good enough" bikes.


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## axcxnj (Jun 23, 2008)

i bought a motobecane messenger fixie from bikes direct.

not, its not a specialized langster or anything like that..BUT i was able to get on the road on a fixed gear bike for $350, and that made me happy. when im riding in the park doing laps, and passing the fat guys on their 3k road bikes, i remember..its not about how much money you spend on a bike, its about how you ride

the bike needs some tweaking now and then, but all in all it was a good purchase.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

tomsmoto said:


> i consider design a HUGE part of "quality". i want a bike that rides great, i expect every bike i look at not to break.. but im going to ride the one thats designed better than the rest.
> 
> motobecanes are generic designs that work good enough. its not going to pedal like a VPP/maestro/dw/fsr/etc bike.. some people care, some dont. they're "good enough" bikes.


You bring up a god point. I just assumed that nobody was seriously considering one of the FS models


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

*Shouldn't it be about THAT you ride?*



axcxnj said:


> i bought a motobecane messenger fixie from bikes direct.
> 
> not, its not a specialized langster or anything like that..BUT i was able to get on the road on a fixed gear bike for $350, and that made me happy. when im riding in the park doing laps, and passing the fat guys on their 3k road bikes, i remember..its not about how much money you spend on a bike, its about how you ride
> 
> the bike needs some tweaking now and then, but all in all it was a good purchase.


Sounds like you're dissing the "Fat Guys" just about like zarr's OP was asking why people dis Moto riders.


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> Come for a test ride with me and my boys, we'll show you how to actual use your bike. Since it's a Scary Fisher, you can bet riding with us will let you test ride your warrentee too. Now go back to waxing your Apples and Bimmers, this thread is for riders.


Gary sold 70+ thousand mtbs last year. If their failure rate was any higher than average they'd be out of business by now. Instead their bikes are currently out of stock because they sell so well. When Motobecane becomes one of the biggest brands in the business and can sport fewer complaints than Fisher I'll concede you are a wise consumer.

I've yet to break a frame and my Bontrager wheelset has held up pretty well. Can you say the same? Of course not. Chalk it up to "real riding" but one can just as easily assume you're a clumsy cow of a rider who doesn't know finesse. Or that the sub-par wheelset spec'd to keep costs down is simply not up to par. There goes that pennywise, poundfoolish part again... take heart though, even big name brands go cheap on the wheels. Fortunately Gary isn't one of them.

Given your penchant for raging against name brands that deliver quality and engineering I'm gonna go with "clumsy cow" instead of holding anything against Motobecane. Yep, you're too busy smashing into every trail obstacle at the most graceless angle while trying to catch up to the name brand rider and give them an earful of class rage.

and yes that was a run on sentence...


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## axcxnj (Jun 23, 2008)

no, im not dissing the fat guys, i have nothing against large people.

im just trying to say that its not about the bike, its about how you ride and if you enjoy yourself....sorry if that offended anyone


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

axcxnj said:


> no, im not dissing the fat guys, i have nothing against large people.


Not fat, circumferentially endowed.


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## rearviewmirror (Jun 14, 2006)

After reading this thread I checked out Motobecane's on Bikesdirect. It cracks me up that an "XTR" pro bike only has an XTR rear derailleur. Yep, in my book having one part from the gruppo really steps it up a class. I got a history lesson from an LBS owner, he basically details their fall from grace, but I don't remember any of it. Conclusion, I wouldn't buy or ride one.


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## jpelaston (Feb 27, 2007)

I'm glad that I read this thread. Now if my riding pal doesn't sell me his Ti hardtail for a great deal this winter, I may be buying from BD.com. So what if it is only XTR shifters and deraileurs ( I'll probably sell and replace w/ X-0). I would rather have the carbon crank and the juicy ultimates anyhow. I would like to have the XTR wheels but thats something I can purchase later... With the money I have saved and have two wheelsets .. It really isn't much different than Airborne Bicycles.... they had a nice pricepoint on Ti frames that you could buy online. 

Someone who knows what measurements they need and can work on their own bike would be crazy to not want one. Unless you like the drool factor of a Moots or Litespeed Ect. I know I would love to have one of the high end named bikes, but probably to ride trails with my finace' and plan to keep forever, NOT to thrash during an XC race where I am more likely to cartwheel down a hill and trash a bike. a good warranty isn't going to help you in that circumstance.

Call it what you will, but someone like me who likes a new bike every other year or so can't go wrong with of of these.

and for the record I am now riding a Kenesis built jamis XC Pro that retailed for 4000.00, so BD.com will be considerably cheaper than what i have now.


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## [email protected] (Apr 18, 2006)

I didn't major in Psychology, so I'm not familiar with dissonance. I did Major in Finance with a minor in economics. It is all about what the consumer is willing to pay for the value. For example, I paid $1,300 for my last bike. It was a year end 2006 close out, normally priced at $1,750. 

If I had invested that $1,300 in the stock market two years ago, it would be only be worth $1,000 today given recent stock market performance. I could easily sell my bike on Craigslist today for $1,000. Therefore, I'm still ahead and enjoyed riding it for two years. More riding will likely contribute to long healthy life. That is a good return on investment (ROI). 

Reality, it is a depreciable asset and I plan to ride it until the wheels fall off (well almost). 
So, I eaither can't afford the depreciation right now on a new bike (Financial Accounting) or I'm making personal choices about my spending that doesn't include a new bike (personal Micro Economics) . Now, by making that personal financial decision am I going to create a macro economic downturn in the biking industry that decreases Bikes Direct and the Local Bike Shops businesses by 25%? 

I agree with grnxb, buy what you like if $'s are not an issue.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Can somebody tell me who sells a better spec'd $800 29er hardtail than the Motobecane Fantom29 Pro @ bikesdirect.com?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

kapusta said:


> You bring up a god point. I just assumed that nobody was seriously considering one of the FS models


I wonder if that is why we sell out of the two most expense models as soon as we post availabilty?

Next time we have Fantom Teams coming [October I think]
we will list that 45 days out all most of what we can get will be booked & paid for before they arrive

Every year; I double the orders on Fantom DS PRO and FANTOM TEAM
and every year they sell out before I can get more

And BTW
we already have a waiting list on the 29er FS that will not even be out till next summer


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## CRed (Aug 4, 2007)

rearviewmirror said:


> After reading this thread I checked out Motobecane's on Bikesdirect. It cracks me up that an "XTR" pro bike only has an XTR rear derailleur. Yep, in my book having one part from the gruppo really steps it up a class. I got a history lesson from an LBS owner, he basically details their fall from grace, but I don't remember any of it. Conclusion, I wouldn't buy or ride one.


That's nice,I'm sure Moto owners give a crap what you think.

I was going to buy a fantom elite DS,ended up with a Mongoose Canaan Team frame for a great price.I'm sure I'll get the "Ewww you have a Mongoose?!" look,but I could give a damn what others think.It was my money and I believe it was spent wisely and that's all that matters.


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## CRed (Aug 4, 2007)

Oh and one other thing.How many posts in the Motobecane forum are their people complaining that their frame has cracked or failed?Take a look then check out other forums like the RM forums,you'll find a few posts about their $2000-$3000 or whatever bike failing.

I actually like RM bikes and if I could afford one I'd think about getting one and I hear their CS is excellent,just don't bash Moto owners for being "cheap" just because they can't afford them or have bigger priorities then buying a $3000 bike.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Mike,
> I have some questions:
> 
> 1- If your bikes are made by Kenesis, how can you say they are the exact same quality as bikes made by other manufacturer's factories? Everybody knows that there are different quality levels coming out of all the bike factories. To say that your bikes are the exact same quality level you would have to know every quality level(including manufacturing processes and materials used) from all of the factories. I doubt you could even (truthfully) say that your bikes are the exact same quality as the other "big" brands coming out of Kenesis.
> ...


I am happy to answer these questions

1 - there is not one single factory in Taiwan or China that I know of that changes QC for a price. So your statement that "Everybody knows that there are different quality levels coming out of all the bike factories" is not only false it is the opposite of the truth. Quality level is the same on any bike made in say Giant China or Ideal Taiwan. And yes; bikes we sell are exactly the same quality level as 'big brands' {whoever you think that is}. No one inside the industry that knows these bikes at a factory level would disagree with that. The 'manufacturing processes and materials used' are the same. {Kenesis is just one of the many frame factories that we and all other makes of high end bikes use}

2 - I have no idea what you mean by a 'Big Name" -- means something different to everyone I assume. List the top quality bike sellers in the USA in order - take the top 20 companies. We would be above most on the list. Of course, if you consider the "big names' to be only the top three -- then Trek, Giant, Specialized are the only ones on your list. If you consider bikes like Felt, Jamies, Santa Cruz, Litespeed, Titus, Marin, to be 'big names' then you have to include Motobecane would be my guess. {BTW - the name on you DT does not determine the quality or ride of the bike:: but you knew that}

3 - I never said "everything manufactured in China is low quality and everything manufactured in Tiawan is high quality". In fact, lots of bicycles and frames made in China are rather nice. What I will say is; bicycle industry insiders go to China for best pricing and to Taiwan for best quality. QC in Taiwan is tighter; and the factories have their top people mainly in Taiwan {most OE providers run both China and Taiwan factories}. There are a lot of inside industry 'facts' about China vs Taiwan. Easiest for all to see are: {a} costs more the have any bike product made in Taiwan than China and {b} Most companies use China on bikes at lower level and Taiwan on bikes at higher level. Why would a company like Specialized, Giant, Fuji, Trek, use Taiwan on more expense bikes when they could use the same factory in China that they do on lower level bikes and save money. At some price point; these companies decided 'this bike needs to be from Taiwan instead of China even though it will cost us more'. In summary; you can certainly get Spec X from China and have it be very nice; just not as nice as exact Spec X from Taiwan {but expect to pay a bit more for that same spec from Taiwan}

The facts on how bicycles are spec'ed, ordered, and manufactured are just now starting to be absorbed by the consuming public. As that information becomes more commonly know; buyers will make room rational decisions and cycling is better off for it.

I like choices


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

jpelaston said:


> I'm glad that I read this thread. Now if my riding pal doesn't sell me his Ti hardtail for a great deal this winter, I may be buying from BD.com. So what if it is only XTR shifters and deraileurs ( I'll probably sell and replace w/ X-0). I would rather have the carbon crank and the juicy ultimates anyhow. I would like to have the XTR wheels but thats something I can purchase later... With the money I have saved and have two wheelsets .. It really isn't much different than Airborne Bicycles.... they had a nice pricepoint on Ti frames that you could buy online.
> 
> Someone who knows what measurements they need and can work on their own bike would be crazy to not want one. Unless you like the drool factor of a Moots or Litespeed Ect. I know I would love to have one of the high end named bikes, but probably to ride trails with my finace' and plan to keep forever, NOT to thrash during an XC race where I am more likely to cartwheel down a hill and trash a bike. a good warranty isn't going to help you in that circumstance.
> 
> ...


Thanks

The new FLY TEAM Ti with 32mm NEW SID in 100mm travel will be in about 3 weeks from now.

Plus about 8 weeks from now there is a new Fantom PRO Ti coming in and it will be under $2000 [also nerw Cyclo Cross Team Ti in about then]

Everyone that has seen or riden the Motobecane Ti bikes has raved about the frame quality. We are very excited about them. New Ti 29er is very nice too and I think will rock the upper end 29er world.

The number of Ti bikes we can get is somewhat limited at this time; but we hope to increase it every year until Motobecane is the biggest seller of Ti framed bikes in the USA {should take less than 5 years}

I really like Ti 
especially for MTB and CX bikes
of course, I like choices; but I would never get a CF mountain or CX bike


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> I wonder if that is why we sell out of the two most expense models as soon as we post availabilty?
> 
> Next time we have Fantom Teams coming [October I think]
> we will list that 45 days out all most of what we can get will be booked & paid for before they arrive
> ...


Because they are cheap?

Are you trying to claim that since they sell well they most be good designs? If so, I'd better go out to the nearest Wal-Mart and get one of those $100 beauties.

The point of this site as it relates to bike purchasing advise is to inform and learn about the products out there. High sales numbers are not a valid endorsement of a product, especially when those sales are to undiscriminating customers. Why do I say undiscriminating? Because you give NO information about the two suspension designs on either site (bikesdirect or motobecane). Further, I see almost no independent reviews of these designs. Even if did, it is unclear whether the design reviewed 2 years ago has changed since then. I have no idea if those designs are any good (I have some hope for the Fantom, little for the cheaper one) and neither did any of the people who bought them. Would a discriminating consumer buy a bike stocked with components with no name or description on them over the internet? No, so why do the same with the most important component on a FS bike, the suspension?

EDIT:
OOps, did not even realize there was a Moto forum here. Looked around a little bit. I don't see anything there that would recommend the single pivot model from anyone who knows what they are talking about. I'll withhold an opinion on the Fantom series.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

kapusta said:


> Because they are cheap?
> 
> Are you trying to claim that since they sell well they most be good designs? If so, I'd better go out to the nearest Wal-Mart and get one of those $100 beauties.
> 
> ...


I am saying they are good enough designs to sell for double in bike shops nd I know this is true as it has happened often enough; AND I am saying that many knowleadge good riders and racers buy our FS bikes. Both the single pivot and 4-bar link type.

Single Pivot bikes have an important place in the FS market - both at low and high price points; and will continue to be important. In fact - our new FS 29er is a single pivot and we know it will be extremely popular.

And the 4-bar link Fantoms perform as well as any four-bar link
which several tests including the races run by Dirt Rag on a Fantom show. 
Plus these are proven designs that have shown to be durable and light at the same time.

But many are missing the point on FS frames
suspension design is becoming less important as rear shocks get better
However, companies NEED to pitch FS Design as the end all be all of FS bikes in order to get a preimum price [not unlike the 'aeroness' of design is picthed to Tri Types]

Part of preceived bicycle performance is actual and part is promotional
It is not easy for many to tell the difference
beleive the marketing or not; that is a consumers choice

but
I like choices


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

First, let me say that I have nothing against your business, other than the branding issue I mentioned above. I bought a Windsor Falkirk for my GF and we are perfectly happy with it and would have no problems suggesting it as an option for a friend. I have two friends with bikedirect bikes (a Windsor touring bike and a Motobecane 29" hardtail ss) and both are perfectly happy with them.

But...



> And the 4-bar link Fantoms perform as well as any four-bar link


What does that mean? Some 4 bars are crap. Flexy, inefficient, crap. Some are very good. Plus, I assume by 4-bar you mean non-horst link 4 bars ( AKA faux-bar). Are you seriously suggesting that it is as stiff as a Turner? Or as neutral in pedaling or braking as an FSR?



> suspension design is becoming less important as rear shocks get better


Wrong. Plain wrong. The newer rear shocks are making _everything _ride better, but for the most part, they are NOT erasing the differences between designs. A shock will NOT make a bike brake more actively. A rear shock will NOT reduce pedal feedback. It helps little with squatting. If it reduces bobbing in a design prone to do so, it does this at the expense of suppleness . Newer shocks are making some designs work better in that they have bottoming control, so the precise compression rate of the suspension is less critical, but thats about all I can think of where newer shocks are closing the gap between more effective and less effective designs.

Besides, I don't think that "KS Axis CoilOver" counts as one of the new generation of rear shocks, anyway Can you give a link to somewhere I can get info on this shock?

I like choices, too. I'm glad bikesdirect is a choice. We are here to give our views of the choices.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> However, companies NEED to pitch FS Design as the end all be all of FS bikes in order to get a preimum price [not unlike the 'aeroness' of design is picthed to Tri Types]


I agree with this to some extent. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in the FS marketing world. Extra links or levers that do nothing new (e.g., Trek's "full floater" shock mount), new names for old concepts, etc.

However, like all things technological, some advances are real. It's up to us to sift through and understand them to sort the hype from the truly superior (or at least innovative) products. To dismiss it ALL as hype or simple marketing is, IMO, ill informed.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

zarr said:


> Can somebody tell me who sells a better spec'd $800 29er hardtail than the Motobecane Fantom29 Pro @ bikesdirect.com?


In the interest of trying to help those on a limited budget, I would like to say, there IS NOTHING.-Not with those brakes and that fork. Maybe if the big companies read this, they'll make some models to compete so we'll have a better selection. :thumbsup:


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

zarr said:


> In the interest of trying to help those on a limited budget, I would like to say, there IS NOTHING.-Not with those brakes and that fork. Maybe if the big companies read this, they'll make some models to compete so we'll have a better selection. :thumbsup:


Make that in steel and it would really be a no-brainer :thumbsup:


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

kapusta said:


> I agree with this to some extent. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in the FS marketing world. Extra links or levers that do nothing new (e.g., Trek's "full floater" shock mount), new names for old concepts, etc.
> 
> However, like all things technological, some advances are real. It's up to us to sift through and understand them to sort the hype from the truly superior (or at least innovative) products. To dismiss it ALL as hype or simple marketing is, IMO, ill informed.


IMHO, Mike is going after the "Walmart" market. Not meaning to diss here, but there's a certain brand of consumer that doesn't have to have certain qualities. They just want a serviceable product at a competitive price. Personally I'm cool with that, even though it's annoying listening to the cheapskates whining about how "stupid" everyone else is for buying filet mignon when corndogs fill you up just as well for much less money. 

Years ago when MTBs were more of a speciality item I'd venture to guess these folks were not trooping down to their LBS and plunking down $1000 for a name brand hardtail. Today they have an option. And if by using that option they hit the trails, well hell you now have another body who cares about the same resources and can complain to the politicians when it is not adequately funded. Not bad a deal for all.

It's too bad that Mike feels the need to spount off half-truths about other brands and the LBS model of business. Sorry Mike but your FS designs do not pedal like a Giant Maestro... a bike that is available minus the shipping hassle for the same exact money as your higher end offerings. Your company is simply nowhere near the size of the majors (did you sell 70,000 Motos last year?) and thus the engineering effort simply isn't there. Stop trying to pretend "it's the same bike" because none of your frames have anything in common with brands using proprietary designs.

Yes, we can all use the same printer at work to make documents. But not every document that comes out is going to be as good as "War and Peace" simply because you used the same Taiwanese factory as the other guys.

Granted many of these designs are surrounded by tons of marketing fluff. But if they didn't work well the competitors would have eaten their lunch by now.


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## rearviewmirror (Jun 14, 2006)

Deme Moore said:


> IMHO, Mike is going after the "Walmart" market. Not meaning to diss here, but there's a certain brand of consumer that doesn't have to have certain qualities. They just want a serviceable product at a competitive price. Personally I'm cool with that, even though it's annoying listening to the cheapskates whining about how "stupid" everyone else is for buying filet mignon when corndogs fill you up just as well for much less money.
> 
> Years ago when MTBs were more of a speciality item I'd venture to guess these folks were not trooping down to their LBS and plunking down $1000 for a name brand hardtail. Today they have an option. And if by using that option they hit the trails, well hell you now have another body who cares about the same resources and can complain to the politicians when it is not adequately funded. Not bad a deal for all.
> 
> ...


Well said. The corn dog comment was hilarious. I'm not knocking the Moto's, but I do firmly believe there is a difference. Are they bad? No. Does their FS pedal as well as my Racer X (horst link), I'm not really sure, but sincerely doubt it.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

kapusta said:


> By comparing the frames themselves and seeing how they have held up over time. Not saying I agree or disagree about them being the same quality, but it would not be that hard to tell.


Thats part of it.

Ride characteristics and geometry are a more important part of quality - though it passes over into design.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

CRed said:


> Oh and one other thing.How many posts in the Motobecane forum are their people complaining that their frame has cracked or failed?Take a look then check out other forums like the RM forums,you'll find a few posts about their $2000-$3000 or whatever bike failing.
> 
> I actually like RM bikes and if I could afford one I'd think about getting one and I hear their CS is excellent,just don't bash Moto owners for being "cheap" just because they can't afford them or have bigger priorities then buying a $3000 bike.


Can I just ask... What the hell is your problem?
Every thread about frame quality - you pop up and say that RM has problems, as if they are the worst out there. Now, excuse me, but thats not fair - or correct.
Yes, there were a few problems with the ETSX, especially the earlier model years - the later ones (06/7/8) have far less problems - and those that they do have get blown out of proportion because of the problems with the earlier design.
These days, the ETSX suffers not vastly more problems than any other does - yes, the design is prone to the occaisional fail, but its not as bad as its often made out to be anymore.
Further, let me point out (since I own one, and know) that that bikes frame performs spectacularly well - that matters more to me than the price, and percieved risk (especially knowing that their CS is really good - in the event of a problem, I know ill be looked after) I bought one, and couldnt be happier.

Value matters to a lot of people, thats fine - there are companies out there to cater for you and for all intents and purposes, Motobecane is one of them. It just seems absurd to try and claim that they will be equal to something costing 3x as much - the only person here that seriously tries to entertain that notion (and pass it on) is mr "bikesdirect.com" - ok we are talking about his product so you do have to take his words with a pinch of salt, however, it would seem that to get people to respect your opinion (and make that a pinch, not a bucket of salt), you do have to be sensible in your descriptions.

Newsflash, the shock alone is not responsible for how your bike rides - the design of the frame is very important (though a good shock obviously helps).
I've never heard anyone try and make that argument (that the shock makes design irrelevant) - obviously mr bikesdirect finds himself with no other argument to use. Yes, you can say you think your product is great value, but theres no need to try and claim that the shock makes such a difference that you wont be able to tell any between his and a better designed frame (one with more time, research and money spent in its development).

If value is very important to you, then by all means look at motobecane (among other online retailers) - there is money to be saved online, but please realise that you do get what you pay for. A $1000 bike wont ride like a $3000 one, even with the same components hanging off it.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

CRed said:


> don't bash Moto owners for being "cheap" just because they can't afford them or have bigger priorities then buying a $3000 bike.


Sorry - but they are being cheap... and there is nothing wrong with being cheap (that is not an insult, its the truth of the matter)
Priorities are priorities, its down to the individual to decide what their own are.

However, what people dislike is those fools that try and claim that their $1000 bike is equal to a $3000 bike - it isnt, the fact needs to be accepted, and moved on from.
(Perhaps in this case, the difference aint worth $2k, but its there and it needs to be acknowledged)


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> But many are missing the point on FS frames
> suspension design is becoming less important as rear shocks get better


No. Shocks like the 5th element, curnutt and manitou swinger made a lot of manufacturers "think" they could make those single pivot bikes and they would have the best of both worlds in terms of pedaling prowess and suspension performance, but that turned out to be incorrect. You can take a so-so single pivot (like maybe a fairly high pivot one), up the compression damping with either a platform or low-speed compression damping, but now you get harsher travel, and you're essentially back to square one, where a properly designed suspension bike will not have to run excessive damping to "control" the suspension. The latter bike will ALWAYS outperform the earlier one. To put it simply, those bikse with those shocks felt like crap compared to a good bike with a good shock.

Put a good shock on a good suspension design, and you'll always outperform a mediocre design. Maestro and DW link work very well, and they do what they claim for the most part. I haven't felt any other suspension systems that work as well in terms of performance and efficiency, although my turner with avalanche shock is not far off the mark, there's just some traits of the 4-bar linkage that can't be overcome with shock technology. You're widly overestimating if you think that shock technology can make up for poor suspension design. I haven't seen any evidence of this, and I've used and owned a lot of suspension designs and shocks.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Don't forget about the importance of stiffness, as it pertains to frame design. Many of these frame designs can be less than stiff, creating a situation where the shock doesn't work properly due to sideloading, which also can decrease longevity of not only the shock, but the pivot(s). Some companies like Foes and Ventana made mini swinglinks in between their rear tris and the shocks to reduce the sideloading and allow the shock to work well, with greater service life.

Additionally, stiffness also has an effect on the handling, as well as the performance of the linkage as part of the greater equation.

Also one must take into account that when the platform shocks first really hit the scene in 03, with the Curnutt designs and licensed variants, they did open a world of new possibilities for frames that weren't as good at pedaling in their inherent design as many others. Fast forward to 2005 and the response to those shocks was so negative because they took off so much of the small bump sensitivity and created harshness for bigger hits, that manufacturers had to dial back the platform and make shocks with different levels or "off" positions, some with better control of low speed damping (such as the Romic Twintube, that appeared in 02-03). Now we have a variety of shocks that don't have on/off platforms, for the most part, user adjustable, better low speed compression controls, and better designs altogether that lessen the need for these shocks. So the case is the opposite. In fact, many went regressive in shock technology, by having their platforms or low speed compression reduced to bring back the good qualities in the frame designs.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

*Bullcrap----as usual*



bikesdirect said:


> I am happy to answer these questions
> 
> 1 - there is not one single factory in Taiwan or China that I know of that changes QC for a price. So your statement that "Everybody knows that there are different quality levels coming out of all the bike factories" is not only false it is the opposite of the truth. Quality level is the same on any bike made in say Giant China or Ideal Taiwan. And yes; bikes we sell are exactly the same quality level as 'big brands' {whoever you think that is}. No one inside the industry that knows these bikes at a factory level would disagree with that. The 'manufacturing processes and materials used' are the same. {Kenesis is just one of the many frame factories that we and all other makes of high end bikes use}
> 
> ...


1 - Mike, you need to put more time and effort into your answers. You're embarrassing yourself. Your statements are not true (only have to say it once). I have first hand, in person, been there-done that experience with Taiwanese manufacturing. It sounds like you have never even been in a factory in Taiwan. Well maybe on a "Customer" tour where at the end they hand you a catalog to order from. How would you explain this:



vmajor said:


> Small companies also exist in Taiwan.
> 
> The big two Giant and Merida, still make the bulk of all the frames, but there are numerous smaller companies that make other brands. This means that even if you buy a frame that is made in Taiwan, and the brand you bought is a smaller brand, chances are it is not "pablum for the masses".
> 
> ...


2- You have no idea alright. You started the "Big Name" term in your post that I'm questioning. Oh, excuse me, you said "big" names not "Big Name". Well, there goes your "Plausible Deniability" exit--(I never said "Big Name", he he, I said "big" names. That's clearly not the same!!!). How about you just tell me where Motobecane ranks in sales. If it's as high as you kinda say, I think you should be proud of it.

3- Of course you "Never Said", you almost always "Never Said". This answer seems to be somewhat of a "Snow Job". If I misunderstood, well that's understandable.


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## rearviewmirror (Jun 14, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> 1 - Mike, you need to put more time and effort into your answers. You're embarrassing yourself. Your statements are not true (only have to say it once). I have first hand, in person, been there-done that experience with Tiawanese manufacturing. It sounds like you have never even been in a factory in Tiawan. Well maybe on a "Customer" tour where at the end they hand you a catalog to order from. How would you explain this:
> 
> 2- You have no idea alright. You started the "Big Name" term in your post that I'm questioning. Oh, excuse me, you said "big" names not "Big Name". Well, there goes your "Plausible Deniability" exit--(I never said "Big Name", he he, I said "big" names. That's clearly not the same!!!). How about you just tell me where Motobecane ranks in sales. If it's as high as you kinda say, I think you should be proud of it.
> 
> 3- Of course you "Never Said", you almost always "Never Said". This answer seems to be somewhat of a "Snow Job". If I misunderstood, well that's understandable.


It's TAIWAN! :madman:


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

rearviewmirror said:


> It's TAIWAN! :madman:


Thanks. My bad. Good thing we have the edit button.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

I read through this thread and the question that pops to my mind is "why is there so much hostility directed towards Bikes Direct?" Am I missing something here, they sell products that are clearly priced and labeled, they contributed to this site, and I have not ever seen any legitimate complaints against them, so what is the problem? Who cares that they bought the rights to use the Motobecane name, there is nothing illegal or wrong with that. Is it any different than BMW buying Rolls Royce and continuing to build and sell them? What about VW buying Bentley and doing the same thing?

Bikes Direct and Ibex have found a great nitch in the marketplace that caters to those that are seeking maximum value for their dollar and do not feel/want/need the support of a local bike shop. The only difference between Bikes Direct and Ibex and the online dealers that the vast majority of users on this board deal with, is BD and Ibex sell entire bikes, while most online dealers sell parts. How many here can claim they have never bought from Jenson, Pricepoint, Performance, or another online dealer? 

Personally, I only buy my bikes online, I have been very disappointing with my local dealers and refuse to pay 30% more (8.25% tax) in order to have marginal service. I have only bought high end bikes (a Titus and Two Turners online) but would have no problem going to BD or Ibex if my budget were lower. In fact, I have recommended both several times. I would also never scoff at the bike because of the name on the downtube.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

CDMC,

I actually didn't know BD still gets a bad rap. I know that Jack's Pack from the Ibex forum had a lot to do with waging a war against the closest competitor. Where that is now, I don't know. 

It's been previously noted Jack from Ibex and Mike from BD have both been pretty "extreme" with their behavior on the site and have been taken care of accordingly.

As far as buying, I wouldn't trust Ibex with my personal information after what I've seen Jack do with it. BD, I don't know anything about, and it's a crap shoot, but at least I haven't seen him do a background check on an unsatisfied customer, then use that personal information against a customer on the internet.

Part of the bigger problem is the big lofty claims, and then on the other side of the forums, there's always guilt by association when you have two similar competitors going at it. The lofty claims on the other side of the forums comes from the users in on the advertising, using AMAZING and every chance they get, they swoop in to tell beginners and others about their brand, using all caps and always using the brand name redundantly, without pronouns. Over there, it's even written clearly on the website that he is the manufacturer, when the catalog he buys the frames from was found. Then links to their threads and all that stuff. In that respect, I think BD got dragged into that mire by being somewhat similar.

FWIW, the Ti bikes look like an incredible deal. I did wonder when I read about them about what the dropouts, bb shell, and headtube were made from. I remember Mongoose's TST Sports frames had different levels (though I only really saw one or two) and the mid to low level ones didn't have 6/4 or 3.5/2 Ti in the hardware. They used Commercially Pure grade. Also, they didn't specifically bend the tubing for clearance and stiffness, consequently even the top end one had enough flex to rub tires.

And if BD wants to be the biggest seller of Ti, then more power to him. Hopefully he can figure out the formula Airborne had, and also add a bit of "innovation", as Airborne did towards the end with fancier profiles and such for stiffness.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

I guess making inflated statements on public forums wouldnt do much for their rep either...

Though a good (or good value) product will speak for itself - alot of people do seem to love theirs, and all you can say is "Congrats", whether or not its your choice, theyve got something they like and thats what really matters.

That said - I personally wouldnt have much faith in a company whos public face appears (at times) clueless. Im really quite astounded at the comments about (basically) shocks being so good these days that frame design is irrelevant - that really is quite a bad statement to be making...


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

CDMC said:


> Who cares that they bought the rights to use the Motobecane name, there is nothing illegal or wrong with that. Is it any different than BMW buying Rolls Royce and continuing to build and sell them? What about VW buying Bentley and doing the same thing?


No, there is nothing illegal about it, just a little deceptive. But it is very different. I don't know the specifics of the car company sales you refer to, but I am almost certain that in those cases, they bought the entire company, not just the name. Those are companies that themselves design and build cars, buying another company who designs and build cars, and my guess is that there is at least some carryover of the the old Bently, Rolls Royce, or Jaguar into the new company, whether it be personnel, infrastructure, physical plants, designs, design rights, patents, whatever. I think an analogy in the biking world would be Trek acquiring Gary Fisher, or SRAM buying Avid. Those companies are still designing and developing there own products, and benefiting from their pre-SRAM or Trek history and experience.

This Motobecane deal is totally different. This would be like if Porche went belly up and I bought the name, then bought a bunch of cars from a factory in Korea with no relation whatsoever to Porsche building cars with no similarity to a Porsche, slapped a "Porsche" badge on it and did not tell anyone that these Porsches have NO RELATION to the Porsches we've all know about for the last half century. Even better, I make up these elaborate stories about my dealing with Porsche as if they are an actual company different from my own run by someone else. Better yet, I have this company (which I own and am the sole dealer for) make up an utterly meaningless MSRP of $70,000 so I can make it look like I am giving a huge discount by selling it for $50,000. I even give you a link to the Porsche website (complete with some reference to 1948 and a picture from that period of a 356) to verify the MSRP so you know what a great deal you are getting.

Do you see the difference?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

kapusta said:


> Do you see the difference?


Nope. When a company goes into bankruptcy, their name is often the only marketable item. It happens all the time that a companies name is bought and used by another company. I believe Bianchi has no commonality of ownership with the original company, Schwinn and GT are both names bought out of bankruptcy. The list goes on. I can name two auto manufactures that resurrected recently in name only, Bugatti and Maserati.

I don't get the problems with BD or Ibex marketing their products. They clearly list the components on their bikes, consumers can compare and make their own choices. Who cares if they claim a comparable value that is higher than what we think it is?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

EnglishT said:


> I guess making inflated statements on public forums wouldnt do much for their rep either...
> 
> Though a good (or good value) product will speak for itself - alot of people do seem to love theirs, and all you can say is "Congrats", whether or not its your choice, theyve got something they like and thats what really matters.
> 
> That said - I personally wouldnt have much faith in a company whos public face appears (at times) clueless. Im really quite astounded at the comments about (basically) shocks being so good these days that frame design is irrelevant - that really is quite a bad statement to be making...


Then you might be 'shocked' by the private statements made by bike designers in the industry. Everyone knows the FS design and Tri Frame design are areas where the marketing way overstates the actual performance difference. No serious frame designer will privately tell anyone that a 4-bar link will perform better if pivot is below rr dropout vs over rr dropout ~~ but in advertising you have to say something. Same goes for Tri frames; none of us belieive that an aero HT or internal cables or a dozen other 'aero' features will speed anyone up by even 2 seconds; but you have to say something in the ads.

True; lower end rear shocks have not changed much; but smart rear shock design on the high end [a] mutes frame design differences and * will move down in price levels.

Of course, we have had similar discussions for decades. 30 years ago there was the Renolds vs Columbus high-grade steel arguement. Everyone designing and making frames knew that no one could tell the difference when riding the bikes. But customers were convinced there was a BIG difference. We used to all say how it would be good if people could ride the bikes blind folded like a taste test [but then you shouldn't ride blind folded]. Same with 4-bar link FS frames [too bad you can not ride them blind folded].

It is easy enough to change any frame design and then make-up a reason it is better; and even to get some people to buy into your pitch. I am just to old and busy to play that game. People who buy a Fantom Team and ride it; know how it performs and their friends find out soon enough. Plus we sell all we can get; why change what works? {OR should I take the approach of 'Oh Snap, lots of buyers already have our 2006 design - so they need a reason for them to buy the 2008 model -- here I know; let's rise the left CS and say it works better!'}

Bigger problem is TRI bikes; I have been needing to do an upper end TRI bike for years and I know what would be fastest as a ride and what would be fastest selling; those two spec are far apart; and I have not been able to convince myself to get into the fight that includes lots of primarily runners who are presold on strange concepts. [I know this fairly well as my wife is a marathoner who also does tri stuff -- and even she has a hard time spotting what BS is on slowticth]

I guess lack of objective data is what makes bikes fun to discuss; so it is probably a good thing*


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> CDMC,
> 
> I actually didn't know BD still gets a bad rap. I know that Jack's Pack from the Ibex forum had a lot to do with waging a war against the closest competitor. Where that is now, I don't know.
> 
> ...


You never miss a chance, do you? Somehow I knew I'd find you in a Motobecane thread running your mouth about Ibex. :thumbsup: Did Jack steal your girl friend or something?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> FWIW, the Ti bikes look like an incredible deal. I did wonder when I read about them about what the dropouts, bb shell, and headtube were made from. I remember Mongoose's TST Sports frames had different levels (though I only really saw one or two) and the mid to low level ones didn't have 6/4 or 3.5/2 Ti in the hardware. They used Commercially Pure grade. Also, they didn't specifically bend the tubing for clearance and stiffness, consequently even the top end one had enough flex to rub tires.
> 
> And if BD wants to be the biggest seller of Ti, then more power to him. Hopefully he can figure out the formula Airborne had, and also add a bit of "innovation", as Airborne did towards the end with fancier profiles and such for stiffness.


Thank you - and the Ti bikes are an incredible deal; I know everyone will see that as we get more into the community of cyclists.

Frames are completely 3.5/2 Ti and made one at a time by hand. Part of why we can not get enough as quick as we would like. So they are going in stages; FLY Ti going now; then Cross Team Ti, then Fantom PRO Ti, then Fanton 29er Ti, then more le Champion Ti, etc --- Can not get them all at once.

However, in time we will be able to ramp up volume and keep quality at the level it is at now {which is as good as you see on Litespeed or other Ti in that price range}. When we can get enough, Motobecane will easily become the biggest seller of Ti bikes in the USA.

I think there is a place for all 4 of the major frame materials; but I am very excited about Ti 
Did I mention, I like choices?


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## e moneybags (Apr 18, 2007)

http://www.crankfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7646



Just figured I'd add my $.02


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

No warranty? WTF.


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## rearviewmirror (Jun 14, 2006)

I like the looks of that Ti Road Frame. What other brands are built in the same factory?

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp_teamti_09.htm


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Then you might be 'shocked' by the private statements made by bike designers in the industry. Everyone knows the FS design and Tri Frame design are areas where the marketing way overstates the actual performance difference. No serious frame designer will privately tell anyone that a 4-bar link will perform better if pivot is below rr dropout vs over rr dropout ~~ but in advertising you have to say something. Same goes for Tri frames; none of us belieive that an aero HT or internal cables or a dozen other 'aero' features will speed anyone up by even 2 seconds; but you have to say something in the ads.
> 
> True; lower end rear shocks have not changed much; but smart rear shock design on the high end [a] mutes frame design differences and * will move down in price levels.
> 
> ...


*

You try asking guys in the frame building forum if design is important.

They will tell you in no uncertain terms, that you are talking utter crap.

Ever see threads about people asking about fabricating their own full sus frames? Occaisionally. 
The response? Dont bother - the design is far too complicated and will make your head spin, and the result still wont be that good.

In all fairness, it would have been better to retract the falsie and move on. Its just embaressing yourself further to keep trying to argue a losing case.

It wont ride the same as a superior system (whether that be VPP, Dw, Maestro etcetc) - your design maybe tolerable in the name of value - it seems to many that it is. But you merely serve to make yourself look a fool by trying to argue a point without a leg to stand on. 
Telling the truth would get you alot more respect - even if it was to say "Its not gonna ride like a $3k bike with the same components, but noones gonna argue its not better value", with that you would have a point and few arguements about it.*


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

CDMC said:


> Nope. When a company goes into bankruptcy, their name is often the only marketable item. It happens all the time that a companies name is bought and used by another company. I believe Bianchi has no commonality of ownership with the original company, Schwinn and GT are both names bought out of bankruptcy. The list goes on. I can name two auto manufactures that resurrected recently in name only, Bugatti and Maserati.


Just because something happens often and is legal does not change the fact that it is, in some cases (such as this) intentionally deceptive. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with people calling them on it. It is completely valid to criticize a company for the way it deals with the public if you find it distasteful. A company buys a name for quick recognition, to make their product more attractive to the uninformed consumer. I don't owe it to them to be an uninformed consumer, or to withhold the fact that this is not the Motobecane that BD would like you to think it is, or withhold my contempt of the practice. They did not buy that piece of my brain that distinguishes a product from the label on it.

The "everybody does it" is not a valid response for me. The way I look at it, I would prefer to not have to dig around on the web every time I want to buy a well respected brand to make sure that it is not just an empty label now. Can I stop the practice? No, but I can voice my disapproval of it, and call it where I see it for what it is, and that is what I'm doing here. Maybe if enough people feel the same way about being essentially deceived about what they are buying, the practice will become less prevalent. I, for one, would appreciate it if someone pointed out to me that a product I was buying at least partly due to company reputation was in no way related to the company in question.

You used the case of RR and Bently, and that is what I was responding to. As I said, I am not too familiar with the deals, but if someone just bought the RR name and hood ornament, and slapped it on cars with no relation to the previous rr, then that is, IMO, a little cheesy as well, and if I actually gave a hoot about RR I would make sure people thinking of buying one knew what the deal was. I know nothing of the Bugatti and Maserati cases you mention, but if someone did with those names what I described with the Porsche name (which is pretty much what BD did with Motobecane) then I would have the exact same reaction to those companies, and I imaging serious car enthusiasts would do the same. If the car is good, then they will like it, but they will still likely be leery of such a pathetic ploy for recognition, regardless of whether it was legal or common.

If you have no problem with a company trying to deceive you, legal or not, then that's your business. If you can't distinguish the difference between buying out a company and just buying the brand label, then this should be no problem.



> I don't get the problems with BD or Ibex marketing their products. They clearly list the components on their bikes, consumers can compare and make their own choices.


I have no problem with BD or Ibex marketing their products (read my other posts), just the cheesy marketing ploy I described by BD. I don't think it should be stopped or made illegal. I do think it shows a lack of respect for the customer.



> Who cares if they claim a comparable value that is higher than what we think it is?


Because the way they do it is a little deceptive. If the MSRP is $2,000 and the company selling it IS essentially the manufacturer, why are they selling it for $1,200? Kind of schizophrenic, isn't it? "Well, I suggest that I should sell it for $2,000, but I disagree with myself, and I'll sell it for $1,200":skep:


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

When RR and Bentley were acquired by BMW and VAG, the machinery, facilities, intellectual property, tooling, debts, etc. were all acquired in their purchases as well. It was well more than purchasing a name.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

This is a stupid argument. Why does every thread started about Ibexx or Motobecame become a pissing match? If you don't like them, FINE, is it necessary to argue with them every chance you get? If you think they're great FINE, but do you feel it necessary to argue with those who don't? People like what they like, and if a cheaper brand gets more people out there riding, it's cool with me. Who cares what they do it on?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Jim311 said:


> Why does every thread started about Ibexx or Motobecame become a pissing match?


The thread title is

"Why does Motobecane have to get such a bad rap?"

The question is being answered.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

Jim311 said:


> This is a stupid argument. Why does every thread started about Ibexx or Motobecame become a pissing match? If you don't like them, FINE, is it necessary to argue with them every chance you get? If you think they're great FINE, but do you feel it necessary to argue with those who don't? People like what they like, and if a cheaper brand gets more people out there riding, it's cool with me. Who cares what they do it on?


Agree with kapusta to a degree...

Yet to expand my own view from that point - I dont dislike the brand, I have never ridden or even seen one.

What I dislike is people trying to confuse gullable/less-knowledgeable (no offense) people that dont know better, by telling them utter crap (lies and mistruths) to shift a few more bikes - that is exactly what mr Bikesdirect is doing IMO. I hate to get hung up on one point - but saying that frame design is largely irrelevant due to shock technology is an incredibly silly thing to say when there are going to be people reading that know better. Though doubtless there will be some people (that dont understand so much about these things) that will believe it, buy into it and end up with a lesser bike as a result. Dont get me wrong, their purchase will be a good value one, but it wont ride the same and wont be an informed choice - that said, aslong as it makes them happy, its less of a problem (though still not right). You could also point out that though those would be the customers that (often) wouldnt know the difference in feel between a lesser and better frame (to a point where "what they dont know cant hurt them").

I also dislike people that have bought cheaper bikes (with good parts) that try and tell me why their bike that cost 1/3 of mine is as good - im sorry but it isnt... it might be more than 1/3 as good, ill accept that and even admit it - but it sure isnt as good as mine.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

kapusta said:


> The "everybody does it" is not a valid response for me. The way I look at it, I would prefer to not have to dig around on the web every time I want to buy a well respected brand to make sure that it is not just an empty label now. Can I stop the practice? No, but I can voice my disapproval of it, and call it where I see it for what it is, and that is what I'm doing here. Maybe if enough people feel the same way about being essentially deceived about what they are buying, the practice will become less prevalent. I, for one, would appreciate it if someone pointed out to me that a product I was buying at least partly due to company reputation was in no way related to the company in question.


It is obvious that we simply see it differently and nothing I say will convince you otherwise, and nothing you say will convince me. I appreciate you keeping the discussion on point and not making it personal like many posters do. I haven't read your other postings on the subject, so you may well have, but it appears you are focused on BD's use of the name Motobecane, but at the same time don't bring up other major names like Schwinn and GT that have been acquired and used by other companies. If you truly abhor the practice, why not address all at the same time?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

CDMC said:


> I haven't read your other postings on the subject, so you may well have, but it appears you are focused on BD's use of the name Motobecane, but at the same time don't bring up other major names like Schwinn and GT that have been acquired and used by other companies. If you truly abhor the practice, why not address all at the same time?


Because..

a) Nobody was asking about GT or Schwinn.

and

b) As far as I know they bought the GT COMPANY!!! NOT just the name/logo. GT still uses the I-drive technology, and is a company doing it's own research and development. I'm not saying it is any better or worse, but it is a very different situation. I don't know how else to explain this concept (the difference between buying a company or just the name/label). I don't know what the deal with Schwinn is.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

kapusta said:


> a) Nobody was asking about GT or Schwinn.


Point taken.


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

CDMC said:


> I read through this thread and the question that pops to my mind is "why is there so much hostility directed towards Bikes Direct?".


Actually I am asking myself why BD and the people who own them have so much hostility towards the "big name" LBS bikes! Maybe if they let off the phony comparisons and half-truths?

Mike comes on here all the time telling people his offerings are perfectly on par with what you get at retail. A poor newbie might actually believe that. Experienced riders know that the retail designs are often much superior, that no one in their right mind is still selling a rear triangle suspension design because they work like crap.

The BD fans love to tell everyone how lousy the LBS treats them. And yet mtbr has ample complaints of people who bought from BD and aren't getting customer service response. Or who are forced to pay an arm+leg in shipping just to get a new frame warrantied. Or who are told that's not a warranty claim and you have to pay cost for replacement. We're also told that this is perfectly normal within the industry when in fact it's not. Newbies are also led to believe that buying online is the only way to get a good deal. Right... there are no such things as closeouts or discounts.

Experienced riders know what's going on here... the majors are more expensive because they have to pay for warranty claims, local customer service and advertising. If you're ok with giving all that up to save 5-10% then that's totally cool.

The rest of us on a budget would rather get components that are down a notch in exchange for a suspension like Giant's Maestro link. Because you're not really going to tell the difference between LX or XTR shifters, but you sure as hell aren't going to enjoy your Y-frame pogo suspension bike with the full XTR! :thumbsup:


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

Deme Moore said:


> Actually I am asking myself why BD and the people who own them have so much hostility towards the "big name" LBS bikes! Maybe if they let off the phony comparisons and half-truths?


Though I find myself agreeing with your whole post...

Can I just add a question to it?

If BD wants to show open hostility (and has done on these boards) towards "big names" - why bother to go and buy a name to display (false) brand history?
Ok for people that dont know the truth, it could be mislead (and on certain ebay shops mentioned here, it has been so), but if big names are to be disdained - why buy a name and pretend you have a history that you dont?


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## tomsmoto (Oct 6, 2007)

i dont think motobecane has any brand history in mtb? its not exactly like they have a foot up by buying into that name.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

tomsmoto said:


> i dont think motobecane has any brand history in mtb? its not exactly like they have a foot up by buying into that name.


Yes and no.

Bicycles (and motorbikes) have been made under that name... That said, it wasnt exactly a famous name in modern times (or in Mtb at all for all im aware).

The "foot up" comes from being able to say that "Circa 1923" bit - which could give a customer who doesnt know better the opinion that the company has a longer history than it does (the name has a much longer history than the current bike company does) - its not exactly a big deal, but it can be deceptive to those that dont know.

It would be interesting to have that clarified actually - according to wikipedia, motorcycles have been made under the "Motobecane" name since 1923, there is no mention of when bicycles were first made under it (though the same company was making motorbikes since then).

Also (from wikipedia) *"Motobecane USA assembles bicycles consisting of Kinesis Industry Co. Ltd. or Alu-Mate Material Ind Co., Ltd. frames, both manufactured in Taiwan, and has no relationship to the long-time French bicycle industry manufacturer, Motobécane."*

So - actually - they have nothing to do with the former brand using the (almost) exact same name that made bicycles.
And they cant have aquired it directly from the motorbike manufacturing because that company was (according to wikipedia) actually the same company (if im reading it correctly)

So whats the truth - where does the name REALLY come from?
Is wikipedia wrong and it IS from the old "Motobécane" name... That would certainly explain the reference to 1923.
Or what is it? Can I smell more mistruths and deceptions? :<

Would be interesting to see what the truth really is - it certainly looks suspicious to me... 
Im sure its all legally ok, but its confusing at best - deceptive at worst.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

tomsmoto said:


> i dont think motobecane has any brand history in mtb? its not exactly like they have a foot up by buying into that name.


Good point. I was more thinking of how it applies to road bikes, which is what I was looking for when I first came across BD.


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## gm4matt (Jun 28, 2008)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> No warranty? WTF.


That depends. I bought my Motobecane at a bike shop called Cycle Spectrum. They sell only Motobecane, Windsor and the other brands on bikesdirect.com.

Because of this, I have a lifetime warranty on the frame, free service on all warranty repairs, a one year warranty on defective parts and free service and installation on all parts.

I will never say it is better than any one else's bike as that is all based upon personal opinion, but what I can say is that this bike (Motebecane Fantom Trail) suits my needs perfectly. I am just getting started in mountain biking and to be able to buy a bike with nicer components for a lower price was a big selling point for me; and buying from an actual bike shop instead of online helped as well.

The name is mainly the reason they get a bad rep...I've beat on this bike plenty already and its held up well. The only part that has given me trouble was a leaky Rock Shox fork. And that's covered under the warranty.

I'm not too concerned about the name, I just love riding.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

zarr said:


> Can somebody tell me who sells a better spec'd $800 29er hardtail than the Motobecane Fantom29 Pro @ bikesdirect.com?


Well, this has to be a major strongpoint for Moto & bikes direct.The Fantom29 Pro is the best spec'd 29er available for $800.Case closed.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Did you start this thread to make an ad for BD?

There is plenty of healthy discussion here, that you spawned, and now you discount it? You're either trying to sell for BD or trolling or both.


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## CRed (Aug 4, 2007)

Deme Moore said:


> Actually I am asking myself why BD and the people who own them have so much hostility towards the "big name" LBS bikes! Maybe if they let off the phony comparisons and half-truths?
> 
> Mike comes on here all the time telling people his offerings are perfectly on par with what you get at retail. A poor newbie might actually believe that. Experienced riders know that the retail designs are often much superior, that no one in their right mind is still selling a rear triangle suspension design because they work like crap.
> 
> ...


You save much more then 5-10% and I would like to know how guys you know so much about how Motos ride if you've never had one?And you know what?I'm really getting tired of all you holier then thou people always telling people what is wrong with their bikes and why yours are so great.Oh gee,that frame is a catalog frame I wouldn't buy one of those,That one doesn't have a fancy smancy suspension design,that can't work can it?Oh no,that bike has an XT rear mech.but the front is a LX,it doesn't matter if you've saved hundreds of dollars and you may not be as ignorant as I think you are just because I have a $3000 boutique bike,it's a POS.And since when are these so called big companies so perfect that people should have to buy from them?Are these the same companies that have stolen ideas from other smaller companies only to copy write everything in sight and drive most of them out of business knowing damned well they didn't have the resources to fight back?I mean ET has had no problem sharing his opinions on Cannondale every chance he gets has he not?

If you don't like online retailers or their bikes that's fine,but not everybody can afford a boutique bike or even a plain old Trek,unless of course you don't mind Acera or Alivo components on a frame that was built in the same factory as Motos like some Treks are.Why can't people buy what they want and enjoy themselves without being persecuted for it huh?How does someone buying a Motobecane hurt you?As long as they're happy and riding their bikes and haviing fun why should you guys care that it isn't what YOU would ride?

I know,I know I'm ranting and I apologize before hand if I offend anyone.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

EnglishT said:


> Agree with kapusta to a degree...
> 
> Yet to expand my own view from that point - I dont dislike the brand, I have never ridden or even seen one.
> 
> ...


I guess it is the political season and people are getting used to 'mis-quotes' being thrown around.

I said "But many are missing the point on FS frames
suspension design is becoming less important as rear shocks get better
However, companies NEED to pitch FS Design as the end all be all of FS bikes in order to get a preimum price [not unlike the 'aeroness' of design is picthed to Tri Types]"

Then you Said "I've never heard anyone try and make that argument (that the shock makes design irrelevant) - obviously mr bikesdirect finds himself with no other argument to use"

I do not get this - I never said it made design irrelevant. Although the shock designers job should be to move in that direction; for obvious business reasons.

Then you said "I hate to get hung up on one point - but saying that frame design is largely irrelevant due to shock technology is an incredibly silly thing to say when there are going to be people reading that know better"

Now do you think if you say something like this long enough that people will believe you instead of their own eyes? What I said on this topic is totally solid "suspension design is becoming less important as rear shocks get better"; no expert in this industry would disagree with that. {and I do not think shock design has peaked yet - still lots of improvements to come}

I would point out that I think of statements like this on three levels
1 - Objective 
2 - Consensus of expert opinion
3 - Subjective

When I make subjective statements I try to follow with 'in my opinion' or 'I think'
I admit my statement was Level 2; and maybe I should have followed it with 'experts agree'. But I never said "the shock makes design irrelevant"; and there are several reasons I did not say that.

However, what is funny and interesting is this thread is full of subjective statements made by posters who have a clear agenda that were not statement qualified. In fact, almost every statement in here about FS design is Subjective.

By the way; too much Objective data would take the fun out of the forums, I think. No more FS vs HT; 26 vs 29; Shimano vs Sram, Campy vs Sram, which frame is most Aero, who has least pedal feedback, CF vs Ti, Alum vs steel, or all those fun discussions.

On the question of 1/3 the retail price - Where did that come from? I Never saw anyone post that. I can tell you we sell some bikes that can not be equaled for double the money in almost any bike shop [level 2 statement]. Of course, the clearest examples are HT, CX, SS/FG catagories [as frame debate is muted there]

And that brings us to the most interesting point - why has this thread turned to a discussion of FS design? In my opinion that is Simple: FS design is an area where it is easiest to make level 3 statements and act like they are level 2 [or even level 1]. Thus the discussion can be derailed and twisted. Must be the season.

In summary, I do not feel Motobecane gets a bad rap in the industry. Lots of magazine articles printed about how nice the bikes are. Lots of owners that post online about how nice the bikes are. There are lots of racers riding and doing very well on Motobecanes. But due to the direct distribution pricing that BD does; there are detractors who have a vested interest in cyclists being redirected to products that are distributed in a more costly manner. And there are even a few people who truly do not understand the distribution channel and how it affect pricing.

Now does anyone want to relive the Reynolds 531 vs Columbus SL debate?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> Did you start this thread to make an ad for BD?
> 
> There is plenty of healthy discussion here, that you spawned, and now you discount it? You're either trying to sell for BD or trolling or both.


I have no idea why the thread was started; but it is entertaining.

My guess is that 'zarr' has the same motivation for starting a thread on a forum as most posters; sometime fun to talk about.

By the way, in the old days we only got to hang around shops and talk to the same local group about of bike interests. Now we can hang out on forums and talk with a bigger group about bikes.

Isn't the internet great?
Maybe we should all send 2 carbon credits to Al Gore


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

I'm going to try and keep the following post on point, without getting into the bickering at hand of the value or lack of value in certain buying methods.

In theory, MTBR is a community of CONSUMERS. The theory, as I see it, is that consumers share information as peers, as equals. The success of MTBR is that it has put power in the hands of consumers. Remember back about ten years ago when all the parts looked really cool and were purple, yet they either didn't work or didn't last? We have gone from an industry where only a couple companies made parts that worked to one where most of the parts work and work well. Living up to their expectations is now the norm and not the exception. It is likely due in part to the fact that we can all tell one another nearly instantly about our experiences. Additionally, mtbr is more than a forum, but a resource for knowledge for the consumers. Adding more increases the knowledge base for all- including beginners.

On the other hand, many have been soured by experiences with manufacturers and dealers using this site, a site for consumers, to their advantage in less than tasteful fashion. Many manufacturers are here and doing the right thing and helping increase that knowledge base, while some used it for their gain in altering perceptions and the like, thus undermining the trust and the concept of the community.

There are two "Bikes Direct" sources on mtbr, and both have been controversial. One more than the other because of the method in which they undermined the trust of the community in the use of guerilla marketing. Whether they are compensated or not is not key here. The issue is that they worked against the community as a whole, and the lofty claims of the marketing companies served the same.

So it's not all about what they do and where they get the bikes from. Most people here with 100 posts or more know, but the issue is when we're bringing new people into the sport, or people with little knowledge come here to tap into the knowledge base, they need to know what other people know and if they are plunged into a reality with advertisers who pretend to be customers/users, or get hit with dubious information without the other side, then who does it benefit? Are we going to move the community's knowledge base towards pacifism and acceptance of everything told to us? 

On my end, I've been targeted by a suspension manufacturer on the forums who's been PMing me, using some bizarre personal attacks, because he wants me to stop telling the truth about the components that I know and their failures. I have technical info on how their stuff worked and supplied facts, but now that manufacturer is bullying me and going down a very personal route to get me to stop. In fact, his attacks are no longer about the company, they are purely personal pm attacks. Who does that serve benefit to? I have statistics available to me of failures of models in other world markets as well and I know their shortcomings in service, so why can't I speak on it?

Look at some of the other forums, where manufacturers cleverly worded their warranties to take advantage of people who in turn end up paying near retail to "upgrade" a defective frame. Many people told the people complaining to stop, because it hurt their own egos because they invest themselves in the brand culture. Does telling fellow consumers to shut up serve to help the community or the manufacturers/dealers?

In this case, why can't detractors be allowed to say their peace? It is their own burden to make themselves look credible and if they aren't, then their arguments will fail, but telling people to be quiet is only going to raise more and more questions about the other side and their intentions and under a circumstantial basis, justifies the other side of the coin.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> I'm going to try and keep the following post on point, without getting into the bickering at hand of the value or lack of value in certain buying methods.
> 
> In theory, MTBR is a community of CONSUMERS. The theory, as I see it, is that consumers share information as peers, as equals. The success of MTBR is that it has put power in the hands of consumers. Remember back about ten years ago when all the parts looked really cool and were purple, yet they either didn't work or didn't last? We have gone from an industry where only a couple companies made parts that worked to one where most of the parts work and work well. Living up to their expectations is now the norm and not the exception. It is likely due in part to the fact that we can all tell one another nearly instantly about our experiences. Additionally, mtbr is more than a forum, but a resource for knowledge for the consumers. Adding more increases the knowledge base for all- including beginners.
> 
> ...


WOW
I wish I knew what the heck you were talking about


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

One is "Bikes Direct"=you

The other is "Quality Bikes Direct"= your competitor. Look at the links in the signatures of the users advertising for them and you'll see.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> One is "Bikes Direct"=you
> 
> The other is "Quality Bikes Direct"= your competitor. Look at the links in the signatures of the users advertising for them and you'll see.


I think I know who you are talking about
However, I have no idea what it has to do with this thread at all

And actually, our major online competitors are Randall Scott and Performance. I know this is a mountain bike forum; but we sell Road Bikes, Cyclo Cross Bikes, Cruisers, Hybrids, Comfort bikes, Tri bikes, SS/FG, Women Spec, etc. We sell steel bikes, aluminum bikes, carbon fiber bikes, and ti bikes. And we sell assorted brands; including some products that are also sold by rscycle and performance. And the number of just beach cruisers we sell I am fully sure passes any other online seller besides rscycle and performance.

besides - In a discussion about Motobecane and it's reputation; I do not think other online sellers are too related.

Now here is something I think is related:

TEAM le CHAMPION -- BICYCLING -- "The price of the Team le Champion seemed so low, we called the company three times to check. But it's right!"

X4B 2.0 -- BICYCLING -- "Four-bar suspension with 4 inch of travel at a price where most bikes have single-pivot, if any."

LE CHAMPION -- FITNESS CYCLING -- "Frame, fork, wheels and Ultegra parts kit make this bike a steal." "Right out of the driveway, the geometry makes you feel confident. The frame is resilient for an aluminum frame, meaning it is quite stiff but can be taken out for long rides without regret".

FLY 9357 -- MOUNTAIN BIKING MAGAZINE -- "The FLY 9357 from Motobecane USA is the lightest production hardtail available. The 2.7 pound frame is precision welded from high strength Kinesium aluminum that is 40% stronger than 6061 or 7005 series aluminum

TEAM le CHAMPION -- BICYCLING -- "Light. Stiff. Nimble. Affordable Dura-Ace. Legendary name." "A machine that performs as well as bikes costing twice as much" "Eager to drive into corners, this bike is perfect for criteriums" "Motobecane did not skimp on the frame - It's Kinesis-built unit mimics the setups raced by top pros"

X4B 4.0 -- MOUNTAIN BIKING MAGAZINE -- "The Motobecane X4B 4.0 offers a nice package at an exceptional price. It doesn't look like Motobecane skimped on anything. You would be hard-pressed to find a better bike at this price"

Le CHAMPION SL - ROAD - "On the straight and narrow tucked in behind someone or in a group, this bike is quick. Desnding is a hoot, it gathers speed quickly and blows down descents with ease. Drop the Le Champion into a tight turn and hold on. It's a nimble handler and took curves without issue. The strength of this bike is that it does everything well."

FLY 9357 - BIKE -- "This bike is an absolute feather. You can have the lightest bike on the block for about the same price as most people pay for their wheels. The lightweight flyer screams up hills with no hint of bottom bracket flex. How does Motobecane do it?"

FLY TEAM -- MOUNTAIN BIKE ACTION -- "IS 19.9 POUNDS TOO LIGHT?" "how is it possible for Motobecane to sell an under-20-pound (mountain) bike for a such an incredible price? One thing is certain; you'll always win in the price deparment with this incredible deal. The FLY TEAM makes you feel like a superstar from the git-go. The 19.9 pound FLY TEAM simply motors"

X4B 6.0 - BICYCLING -- "It's amazing spec for the money"

FLY TEAM -- MOUNTAIN BIKING MAGAZINE -- XC RACE BIKE OF THE YEAR! "The more we do the math, the harder it was to believe the price at which the Motobecane package leaves the shop. Performance of the frame and parts spec is on the highest level"

CENTURY PRO -- - Bicycling Magazine compares a Motobecane Century Pro to a $10,000 Merlin in a full test ride article! "The gap between cost and performance simply isn't big enough to justify all the extra cash. The Motobecane delivers the goods with enough money left for a trip for two to the Giro d'Italia. The Motobecane is a shining example of solid design with good spec and a fine ride at a great price."

FANTOM XC -- - BICYCLING MAGAZINE "A light frame and good spec make Motobecane's XC Racer fast and fun. Typically, you find these parts on bikes that cost thousands of dollars more. It's perhaps the only bike specifically designed for budding XC or 24-hour racers."

LE CHAMPION TEN - - ROAD - "One of our first concerns with the Le Champion was that it may be too light! However, the reduced weight of the bike makes accelerating and climbing feel almost effortless. IT IS THE LIGHTEST ROAD BIKE THAT WE HAVE EVER RIDDEN AT 6401 GRAMS, MAKING IT ULTRA FAST AND RISING THE BAR FOR SUPER-LIGHT RACE MACHINES."

FLY TEAM Ti - MOUNTAIN BIKE ACTION - "The tight controls and frame angles are so lively it's easy for the rider to find his zone. The Fly rider will have an overwhelming desire to sprint past the front row and take the lead. In or out of the saddle, the 20 pounder retains complete steering precision on ultra steep grades without a hint of bar wagging or overstreering."

IMMORTAL FORCE - ROAD "The Immortal is like a Rocket. Maneuverability is instant; feel on the pavement is smooth and quiet."

FLY TEAM - MOUNTAIN BIKING MAGAZINE "Motobecane has been producing top-notch bikes specific to your needs since 1923, and they continue to produce all levels of bikes while remaining focused on the customer. This bike is so light and rigid it seems to pedal itself."

CENTURY PRO - ROAD "Motobecane bikes can always be counted on for coming in at a price that is downright reasonable. A solid, no-nonsense frame and fork combination with a worry-free, stellar specification at a price that will make you rub your eyes."

Le CHAMPION SL - ROAD - "Titanium is a cool material and the ride it gives is worlds apart from carbon fiber. Le Champion is titanium of the 3/2.5 variety, the real deal; all metal."

FLY 9357 - MOUNTAIN BIKING MAGAZINE - "The lightest bike that we've tested in the last 2 or 3 years. The Fly 9357 takes you higher, farther, and faster than your lactate threshold ever imagined - at a price that isn't too outrageous."

FANTOM TEAM - DIRT RAG - " The Fantom Team's handling is well mannered and intuitive. Carving through tight singletrack is a breeze. And the bike loves to go downhill fast."

IMMORTAL SPIRIT - VELO NEWS - "Value leader Motobecane has an assortment of high-quality bicycles at jaw-dropping low prices. The 15.4 lb Immortal Force boasts full carbon construction and complete Dura-Ace. In business since 1923, Motobecane has most recently focused on outstanding value."

NEMESIS - TRIATHLETE MAGAZINE - "Shed some pounds and lose some drag with what's trick, Motobecane is into triathlon."

FLY TEAM - MOUNTAIN BIKING MAGAZINE "FAST! That's what all our test riders had to say. This bike climbed like a jet airplane. It's the ideal choice if you're looking for an ultra-lightweight hardtail that doubles as a competitive cross country racing machine."

IMMORTAL ICE - ROAD BIKE ACTION MAGAZINE - "the Ice feels perfectly balanced below its rider and picks up speed without hesitation. Cornering the Immortal Ice is quite pleasurable. You can take your hands off of the Immortal Ice's handlebars and stretch while you are descending, which is a desirable trait for a true road bike. Stand on the pedals and the torsionally rigid carbon frame will deliver precisely metered power to the cranks, without a hint of your power being wasted on lateral movement."

FLY TEAM Ti - MOUNTAIN BIKE ACTION - "Motobecane's Fly Team Ti is made from double-butted, multi-shaped 3/2.5 titanium. The finished product is stunning. The frame does a nice job of absorbing the trail chatter, so the rider is not physically punished for the bike's performance "

Le CHAMPION SL - ROAD - "If you want a titanium bike that is built nicely and houses exceptional components at a 'double-take' price then look no further"

IMMORTAL SPIRIT - BICYCLING MAGAZINE - "Your friends will drool over the Immortal Spirit until you drop them. The overall ride is truly amazing."

~~~
as you might guess, I am not too worried about the 'rap' on Motobecane and I see Motobecane as a stand alone brand same as I do Kestrel, Tomaaso, Litespeed, Kona, Jamies, Felt, Fisher or any other. My take on it is: every year, Motobecane sales increase and every year more cyclists realize what great bikes they are. I am happy with that.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> I think I know who you are talking about
> However, I have no idea what it has to do with this thread at all
> 
> besides - In a discussion about Motobecane and it's reputation; I do not think other online sellers are too related.
> ...


If you have no idea what this has to do with the thread, then you're not reading the posts.

Next, filibustering using quotes that are better placed in paid ads won't deviate from the topic, especially when every single one of them is what's in question. I didn't really care about them before either way, since I think I know my way around this stuff, but even just reading the first 3-4, I really know what people are talking about because even though you're trying to portray them as someone else's statements, you still have a responsibility to convey proper info. It is also the responsibility of the members of this forum to educate one another. The responsibility is not up to the manufacturers/dealers, otherwise the community is back to square one, being sold with advertising and not facts and experience from peers.

For instance, the comment about the "four bar" and links and all that- we all know that all different interpretations from single pivot, to horst and non-horst links containing designs, to virtual pivot, and everything in between is available at any pricepoint, from the bottom end, to the very top in small custom builder forms. So that is grossly off-point and unusable for advertising.

You also quantify performance against pricing of competitors, something pretty impossible to do, especially when your own marketing scheme is to discredit the supposed weight-performance advantage correlation to pricing.

Then comes the one about Kinesium being 40% stronger. Do you have the tests of who, what, and how it was compared? Have you revealed what Kinesium really is?

I have this straight from Kinesis' own UK site:

http://www.kinesisbikes.co.uk/kinesium.php



> Kinesium has been used in the construction of the following frames: Racelight RC, Racelight KiC & the Maxlight XCPro.
> Kinesium is enhanced 6000 series Aluminium alloy, which is 25% stronger than 6061 at the same weight level, manufactured in house at the Kinesis factory, it gives fantastic value for money.
> 
> Kinesium's properties make it an ideal material for a very light, tough, responsive frame at an affordable price.
> Kineisum's superior properties over other alloys allow for a much thinner wall thickness to be used, thereby dramatically reducing overall frame weight without compromising strength.


Was 25% not good enough?



> FLY 9357 - BIKE -- "This bike is an absolute feather. You can have the lightest bike on the block for about the same price as most people pay for their wheels. The lightweight flyer screams up hills with no hint of bottom bracket flex. How does Motobecane do it?"


I checked the site. "Most people" pay $1,499 for wheels? That's absolutely ridiculous. Even those people into bling on the Turner forum aren't on $1500 wheels. To be honest, I don't even know if there are 1,500 USD wheels made. I know some real high end ones are above 1k, but I don't believe "most people" are using wheels this expensive. I also believe this is somewhat deceptive to scare people away from shopping around.

I could go on, but you have examples of what makes your rep what it is. Before, I didn't really care, but now that I see those quotes that insults the intelligence of the customer base, I wouldn't bother. To an extent, I was actually defending you, while maintaining some neutrality.


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## CRed (Aug 4, 2007)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> If you have no idea what this has to do with the thread, then you're not reading the posts.
> 
> Next, filibustering using quotes that are better placed in paid ads won't deviate from the topic, especially when every single one of them is what's in question. I didn't really care about them before either way, since I think I know my way around this stuff, but even just reading the first 3-4, I really know what people are talking about because even though you're trying to portray them as someone else's statements, you still have a responsibility to convey proper info. It is also the responsibility of the members of this forum to educate one another. The responsibility is not up to the manufacturers/dealers, otherwise the community is back to square one, being sold with advertising and not facts and experience from peers.
> 
> ...


Heh,you sure are long winded aren't you!Those new Crank Brothers Blue Cobalt rims come pretty close I think,but I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't spend what they could get a new bike for on them.They are beautiful though!Anyways,I'm done arguing so I'll let you guys carry on.I'm sure most people are capable of making the right choice for themselves and hopefully be happy with whatever bike they chose to get which shouldn't be hard if they get out,ride it,and have fun with it.Even a $3000 bike is worthless if it never leaves the garage.

$1000 MSRP on the rims so not too bad eh?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> If you have no idea what this has to do with the thread, then you're not reading the posts.
> 
> .


No really
I have no idea what other online sellers have to do with this thread
or how or why they got into it

I think the question is clear in the original post
and I think my take on it is clear too

Just to be clear here is the original post by zarr

"I am trying to understand why Motobecane is thought of by some as the lower rung of the MTB ladder.Is it a status thing? That people of a particular income level wouldn't ride one because of their positions in society? Or is it that thet are just not good bikes? How do Motos compare to big name bikes? Are they just as good? Do they provide people with not a lot of money to spend with a great deal? If that's the case, why aren't they more recommended?"

I do not think that says anything about any other seller - online or not
and I did give my take on each of zarr's questions - somewhere in the beginning of this vey entertaining thread

~~~~~~~~~

I do not think Motobecane has a bad rap
I am not unhappy with the performance of Motobecane as a brand
and further I feel Motobecane offers one of the best and widest selection of adult bikes in the USA.

In addition, I know the brand is growing every year. A brand name is an asset which can be created, destroyed, bought, sold, leased, and so on. I am very happy with Motobecane and expect nothing but better and better things from it.

We are adding 4 cyclo cross bikes to the current 3 Moto models this season; adding several Ti bikes including a 29er this year, adding a FS 29er, adding more steel bikes, adding more flat-bar road, more commuter stuff, and nice touring bike. Since we could add those to any of several brands we own or lease; I think the fact that they are being added to Motobecane should say something about how we feel about the brand.

I know the brand is just getting stronger all the time.
Example: Next Month you will see on newstands all over the USA a reveiw of the new Fantom Cross Team Ti. I am sure the review will be good as it is a great bike. The reveiw will be based on a list price of $4000 - which is fair for a Ti CX bike. We already have many spoken for before arrival. By the time ours hit most if not all will be pre-sold. Those buyers will show up at rides or races with those bikes; I think everyone who sees or rides them will be impressed. When people hear the price they paid - they will be blown away{BD will sell these at under $2000}. I think that will build the Moto name even more.

Now - when the 22lb Fantom 29er Ti comes out - with XTR and is also priced at less than half equal bikes - how do you think it will sell? how do you think people will like it? how do you think it will affect the Moto name? I think I know the answer to these questions. I think people who pay lees for a Ti 29er than most shops sell Aluminum equal spec for will be happy.

On the question of brand - everyone has their own opinion of different brands. There are some I love; some I do not care about, some I hate. In my case, I never talk about brands I hate; as I think that is bad for cycling in general as it may make someone feel bad about a bike they already have. I do compare bikes to one another. Of course, I have to discuss value; as selling bikes is what I do.
And I really like the value buyers get in a Motobecane from bikesdirect. And since our repeat business keeps going up; I guess buyers are happy too.


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## tomsmoto (Oct 6, 2007)

if i was looking for a 71 degree 4 hta, 4 inch 4 bar light duty xc bike, hey id probably look at another motobecane.. but like most people, im not. 

i think a lot of people are less concerned with value and more concerned with getting something good. if motobecane licensed dw link, and made a 5 or 6 inch bike, id buy one. 

it sounds to me like you guys are just changing materials and churning out the same run-of-the-mill nothing special bikes. those bikes work, and sure you get customers, and sure you get repeat customers.. but the question was why do you guys get a bad rap, and i think thats why.. mtb is an ultra competitive market, theres constant new stuff coming out, you guys are just getting left behind from everyone but people looking at a price point.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

tomsmoto said:


> if i was looking for a 71 degree 4 hta, 4 inch 4 bar light duty xc bike, hey id probably look at another motobecane.. but like most people, im not.
> 
> *i think a lot of people are less concerned with value and more concerned with getting something good. if motobecane licensed dw link, and made a 5 or 6 inch bike, id buy one.
> *
> it sounds to me like you guys are just changing materials and churning out the same run-of-the-mill nothing special bikes. those bikes work, and sure you get customers, and sure you get repeat customers.. but the question was why do you guys get a bad rap, and i think thats why.. mtb is an ultra competitive market, theres constant new stuff coming out, you guys are just getting left behind from everyone but people looking at a price point.


So does execution matter, or simply having said suspension in place? Execution is everything and this is what could make the most primitive suspension in a great execution work better than the most advanced one within a poorly executed application. Take for instance the first year of Iron Horse and the DW Link. Those bikes were horrible and it's amazing DW was able to get the link off the ground as one of the top designs in the industry. DW claims they had manufacturing limitations that forced them to make an incomplete DW link suspension. Later years they had undersized pivot shafts and other problems that led to a lot of flex and bending of said pivots. They finally started getting it right in the last year and now they have severed the relationship pending Iron Horse's restructuring and sales to Randall Scott Cycle, incidentally.

Regardless, execution is everything.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> I'm going to try and keep the following post on point, without getting into the bickering at hand of the value or lack of value in certain buying methods.
> 
> There are two "Bikes Direct" sources on mtbr, and both have been controversial. One more than the other because of the method in which they undermined the trust of the community in the use of guerilla marketing. Whether they are compensated or not is not key here. The issue is that they worked against the community as a whole, and the lofty claims of the marketing companies served the same.
> 
> On my end, I've been targeted by a suspension manufacturer on the forums who's been PMing me, using some bizarre personal attacks, because he wants me to stop telling the truth about the components that I know and their failures. I have technical info on how their stuff worked and supplied facts, but now that manufacturer is bullying me and going down a very personal route to get me to stop. In fact, his attacks are no longer about the company, they are purely personal pm attacks. Who does that serve benefit to? I have statistics available to me of failures of models in other world markets as well and I know their shortcomings in service, so why can't I speak on it?


JC,

If you weren't a longtime regular here, after reading the above, I would instantly call you a complete lunatic. Can you expound on both, as they seem a little far fetched?


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

CDMC said:


> JC,
> 
> If you weren't a longtime regular here, after reading the above, I would instantly call you a complete lunatic. Can you expound on both, as they seem a little far fetched?


I'll pm you about it.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> I'll pm you about it.


Please PM me also with these details
As I have no idea what you are talking about

And it is confusing
But it seems it was made confusing by design


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Mike,

You will not get a PM, as this doesn't concern you. Thanks.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> Mike,
> 
> You will not get a PM, as this doesn't concern you. Thanks.


Then I do not understand this at all
If it has nothing to do with Motobecane - why is it in this thread?
And what is the big secret? I mean we're still talking bikes, not homeland security, I assume. [if it does invlove homeland security; please do not tell me]

This entire discussion has got so off the main topic that I am shocked if anyone can keep up. But hey, I like a mystery. Nothing is as boring as knowing exactly what is going on.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

I like choices. Carry on with the show.


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)




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## RXL (Feb 8, 2008)

how does the Better Business Bureau rate bikes direct, bikesdirect.com, and cycle spectrum?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

RXL said:


> how does the Better Business Bureau rate bikes direct, bikesdirect.com, and cycle spectrum?


We do not answer their little requests
Nor do we pay them
Nor do we beleive their 'system' is useful any longer in the new information age

In fact, their rating system is totally misleading; in my opinion
If they can ever tie it back to transaction count in a meaningful way; we will rejoin


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> I'll pm you about it.


PM received. I'm not going to say who the issue is with, but from the information JC communicated to me and the limited behavior I have seen from the individual, it is 100% believable to me. FYI, it is unrelated to Bikes Direct, only the suspension issue raised by JC.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> We do not answer their little requests
> Nor do we pay them
> Nor do we beleive their 'system' is useful any longer in the new information age
> 
> ...


I don't think the BBB is useless. In late 2006, my laptop's hinges broke. I got the runaround from the manufacturer about it. In the end, I was so frustrated due to their lies (and I noted with the reps that I knew they were actually trying to help me and supervisors were cutting them off before the sale was complete) that I went to the BBB in their area. Within 48 hours the corporate attorney contacted me personally, apologetic about the whole situation. In between, I was even more livid because I ordered from a site in Canada (with some odd connection to a Russian company) that was the only place with them for like $70, shipping brought it to about $100. The authorized US crooks were trying to sell them for nearly $200.

I was livid because the package was drop shipped from the computer manufacturer. In any even, he was eager to make a settlement with me on this, and they partially made good and sent me two days later, an identical box as the first package.

I even got a followup call.

All "the information age" gave me was others with the same problem and no resolution. The manufacturer did not care one bit about my statements looking for advice or criticizing the poor design.

To say the BBB doesn't have pull and is useless as a merchant is warranted because of course you wouldn't want to deal with them. When you hear from them it's usually because of an issue you can't make good on. They can act in both ways, and protect you, and I know this from being in business throughout my life. The BBB won't go after you if your situation is unwarranted. Transaction count wasn't even a factor here. The company was simply not selling a part they had on hand, and instead trying to sell me a whole new screen for $600, when the hinges were confirmed as available by the reps and the supervisors told them to not sell them when I was giving them my billing info.

"We do not answer their *little* requests is pretty insulting. Their "little" requests are usually due to the big frustration a person feels at being powerless against a company that won't resolve issues.

I'm sorry Mike, but you lost a potential customer and someone that was pretty neutral about you, erring on the side of leaving you alone. It's unbelievable how you can say a BBB request is "little" with such disdain.


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

*And now, for this commercial break...*


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## e moneybags (Apr 18, 2007)

Interesting that Mike from BD has not addressed the 'warranty' upgrade program as of yet. I know that is a major factor when I consider a bike, not cause I beat it to death, but cause I ride regularly and know when I spend a lot of money on something I want some assurance it is going to last..

But IMO BD has a place.. That is: Attract people to cycling/biking with low prices. One of the things that inhibits growth in these sports (ie skiing/snowboarding, biking, etc) is the up-front cost.

Total cost of ownership is possibly higher (if you need to pay $429 to "_warranty_" your broken bike or whatever the cost is..) but you are still enabling and attracting people to biking that would not otherwise be... Then they can choose whatever bike they want as we all have once we have gotten some experience, found our niche, rode our buddies bikes, etc.

For the OP, as a house brand, or private label, where bikes/clothes/etc comes from a catalog I think that people feel the sellers/distributors have less at stake with their brands. (Most companies balance sheets will show that one of their largest assets is brand equity, and few companies are willing to lose that over a few quality issues!) My personal feelings anyway...


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

*Customer Service???????*



bikesdirect said:


> ~~~
> as you might guess, I am not too worried about the 'rap' on Motobecane


Then why do you spend so much time on MTBR trying to lay a smokescreen over all the statements that might be perceived as negative to Motobecane? And why do you spend so much time on MTBR inserting poorly disguised sales advertising into a public discussion forum?

Wouldn't it be better to concentrate a little more on customer service? Posts like the following do affect your "rap".



guapo1 said:


> I have owned 5 Motos. I still have 4 of them. Sort of. One I sent back for a warranty evaluation. On July 9th I was riding my Fly 9357. I noticed a creak that started during the ride. After the ride I inspected the frame and saw cracks developing around welds at the seat and top tube junctions.
> 
> I contacted bikes direct and they told me to send the complete bike to Florida to be evaluated for warranty, The email said to give Chris a couple days to do the eval.
> 
> ...


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> We do not answer their little requests
> Nor do we pay them
> Nor do we beleive their 'system' is useful any longer in the new information age
> 
> ...


LOL...! It's kinda funny... every business I've ever dealt with that has a bad BBB rating is utter garbage. Decent business may have plenty of bad complaints (due to volume) but they also have a good "resolved" rate. Probably because they actually keep staff for customer service. To hear you being dismissive the BBB only reinforces my impression of the kind of business you run. That plus the complaints I've seen form your own customers on this very forum.

A few of your shady practices:
On your website you claim "free shipping". What you aren't up front about is the fact that if one decides to return the bike they not only pay return shipping to you, they also pay your inflated shipping costs for the original delivery to customer. NOWHERE on your site do you mention that you charge $100 for that. For $45 worth of shipping! And you continue to ignore that issue... am I right?

Carbon fiber: No warranty at all! You'll offer a replacement "at cost" but if it cracks then that's the chance your customer took. LBS brands do warranty their CF parts if they are defective and do offer cost replacement if you wrecked it. Why? Because they trust their designs will work. They don't buy China Fiber frames of questionable engineering.

Sure... if the customer digs enough they can find this out before doing business. But that's not the hallmark of an honest seller... sorry.

I am far from being a boutique bikes rider. I've never bought a bike more expensive than $1750. My last two bikes cost slightly under $900 and $400! I am currently doing a build using entirely online sourced parts. I have no financial interest in the LBS model. But I still go there cause surprisingly, some stores do in fact offer a lot for the money! And I go online too because you can save a bundle.

IOW, I like value. And have no problem being a bikesdirect customer. But I am not stupid either. I have seen the complaints regarding your business right here on mtbr. Maybe on a $200 bike I'd take a chance and say to hell with it. But in no way would I part with $1,500. Not when there's a real risk of getting unanswered emails, warranty denials, having to pay $100+ in shipping just so I can have a defective part replaced, etc...

I know there's plenty of suckers out there who are willing to put up with quite a bit of nonsense just to get a good deal. If that's your market then cool. Just don't complain that the honest people can smell BS from a mile away.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> I don't think the BBB is useless. In late 2006, my laptop's hinges broke. I got the runaround from the manufacturer about it. In the end, I was so frustrated due to their lies (and I noted with the reps that I knew they were actually trying to help me and supervisors were cutting them off before the sale was complete) that I went to the BBB in their area. Within 48 hours the corporate attorney contacted me personally, apologetic about the whole situation. In between, I was even more livid because I ordered from a site in Canada (with some odd connection to a Russian company) that was the only place with them for like $70, shipping brought it to about $100. The authorized US crooks were trying to sell them for nearly $200.
> 
> I was livid because the package was drop shipped from the computer manufacturer. In any even, he was eager to make a settlement with me on this, and they partially made good and sent me two days later, an identical box as the first package.
> 
> ...


My attitude toward the BBB maybe actually worse than you think it is. The misguided use of the BBB reminds me of State Lottery and encourages lack of thoughtfulness.

In addition, I admit my attitude is colored by several unpleasant encounters with BBB sales people.{[yes, BBB has something to sell!}

Dispute intervention is not needed with my operation. When there is a issue, my policy is offer more than is required or is the company standard. If the customer does not think that is enough; my policy is offer more than that. In a very few cases the customer demands more than I will even do. This does not happen often as my approach is so liberal.

But there are some customers than can not be made happy no matter what. Every retailer will tell you that. If I sited cases; you would in each agree I had gone over what would be fair. And in many of these cases; you would not beleive the demands the customer made.

So by the time any customer would go to the BBB they have already been offered twice the help that anyone in the industry would think is reasonable. { I have had customers totally go off on me and the BBB because I would not fire a longer term employee that they did not like the 'attitude' of! HERE IS A CASE WHERE I REFUSE TO "RESOLVE ISSUES" - I refuse to fire a 10-year empployee who said "sh*t' in a store while there was a child in ear shot. I thought a little talk was better than costing a man his job. }

For 30 years I have sit the standards in service and value in this industry. I was one of the first shops to ever offer deep discounts on current Pro Level Bikes. Over 15 years ago, I started free life time service in all my stores. Almost everyone in the industry thought that would cost so much I would go under. Now some other shops do it. {all labor free on new bikes sold in our shops, not just adjustments}

Now - maybe I should not have said 'little'; but the very very few reports we get thru BBB are on customers that have all ready been offered more than YOU would have thought was fair.

Now - the misleading math of the BBB
no transaction ratios!!
Ever use e-bay?
Well wonder if all they listed was negative feedbacks
Seller X - 2
Seller Y - 120
Seller Z - 557
Now who should you buy from; if they all have the same product at same price?
Wonder if seller Z is 35% less than Y or X? Is it worth the risk?
GET THE PROBLEM?

Now Wonder if SELLER X has 12 ssales; SELLER Y has 2678 sales, and SELLER has 158,956 sales???

However, all that said - You should for sure buy bikes that you feel are the best value for the money; including spec, price, and service. There are lots of choices out there; and many are really good.

I like choices.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Deme Moore said:


> Carbon fiber: No warranty at all! You'll offer a replacement "at cost" but if it cracks then that's the chance your customer took. LBS brands do warranty their CF parts if they are defective and do offer cost replacement if you wrecked it. Why? Because they trust their designs will work. They don't buy China Fiber frames of questionable engineering.
> 
> .
> 
> .


Who said this?
"Carbon Crash Replacement Policy:
Assessing any damage done to a carbon fiber part requires more experience than is needed to inspect metal parts. If you crash or impact your bike and the force of the impact is absorbed by a carbon part, we strongly encourage you to replace the part, even if there are no indications of damage. If such a crash or impact occurs, XXX offers a crash replacement program for carbon parts, substantially reducing any replacement cost. To take advantage of this program, contact us using the information listed above and ask for the Warranty department."

Our experience is: there is sure fire way to tell if CF parts are defective. We have not actually seen any that we thought we defective. But we have replaced many; some at no charge; some at below dealer cost. And in all cases we do the labor for free {which is not covered under any bike company's warranty.

I just have never charged warranty labor in 30 years
And I have made that the policy of below cost crash replacement of CF stuff too.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Deme Moore said:


> On your website you claim "free shipping". What you aren't up front about is the fact that if one decides to return the bike they not only pay return shipping to you, they also pay your inflated shipping costs for the original delivery to customer. NOWHERE on your site do you mention that you charge $100 for that. For $45 worth of shipping! And you continue to ignore that issue... am I right?
> 
> .


I do not think you are right.
Except yes we do offer free shipping out [unlike our direct competitors]

If someone ships back a return; I would see no reason theyu would pay $100
In fact, I do not we would charge that; nor would UPS if shipped as we do.

Often, we just issue a call tag in such cases.

But - think about it - people who buy from shops drive there & back; if they return item they drive there & back.

Many of our customers live over an hour from a good shop; some live 2 or 3 hours from one. I sure wouldn't drive 2 hours for $45 considering my time and gas prices. But that's me.

Either way; it is an overblown issue
1 - we get less than 1 in 250 bikes returned
2 - defects on high grade bikes that call for inspection are about 1 in 10,000

Of course, buyers can choice to buy at a shop and pay double

I like choices


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

e moneybags said:


> Interesting that Mike from BD has not addressed the 'warranty' upgrade program as of yet. I know that is a major factor when I consider a bike, not cause I beat it to death, but cause I ride regularly and know when I spend a lot of money on something I want some assurance it is going to last..
> 
> But IMO BD has a place.. That is: Attract people to cycling/biking with low prices. One of the things that inhibits growth in these sports (ie skiing/snowboarding, biking, etc) is the up-front cost.
> 
> ...


I am, sorry
maybe I missed the 'warranty issue'

Each bike we sell has a warrany. We go by the stated warranty; then if there is a claim we kick in a little extra. Depends on the case and the customer. But it is always more than the stated warranty requires.

And the stated warranty on Motobecane, Mercier, Kestrel, Dawes, Windsor, etc is just about like every brand.

And we give away more stuff on warranty claims than what actual defects would indicate; but I think most in the industry do. My guess is that about 8 or 10 perfect of defect claims industry wide are actual defects.

I am not saying I am a hero; everyone in the biz has given away lots of stuff that was claimed as defect but was actually user error or just worn out. This is just part of the deal.

A big test is: What do you do when someone has a bike twisted in half and asks for a new bike under the 'lifetime' warranty AND you find out it got there way by being backed over by a car?

[you think I made that up - admit it]


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## e moneybags (Apr 18, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> Our experience is: there is sure fire way to tell if CF parts are defective. We have not actually seen any that we thought we defective.


Again, I'm not here to bash.. I think you fill a niche.. But this is an interesting quote considering the link I posted to the CT boards. The BD Custy Serv rep asked that the gentleman with the broken bike saw off the rear dropout and send it in, even though the BB shell sustained the cracks.

Now, if my BB shell is cracked, and I send you an unrelated part of the same bike, you _would _NEVER see any that you thought were defective! :lol:

(For your ease of locating the thread: http://www.crankfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7646&start=10 )


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> Of course, buyers can choice to buy at a shop and pay double


Another of your misleading statements. I didn't pay double for either my Kona or my Giant (both bought new from shops). In fact, I think I payed less for my Kona than you charge for an equivalent(*IF???* equivalent applies)bike.

Now, here comes your "I never said that". And of course you didn't say that. You said buyers *can* choose to pay double. What you said is meant to lead people to the conclusion that bikes cost double in shops. When someone disputes(with facts) these conclusions, you always come back with "I never said that".

Straight out of "Sleazy Selling 101".


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Then why do you spend so much time on MTBR trying to lay a smokescreen over all the statements that might be perceived as negative to Motobecane? And why do you spend so much time on MTBR inserting poorly disguised sales advertising into a public discussion forum?
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to concentrate a little more on customer service? Posts like the following do affect your "rap".


This is a fair question [in a way - except your tone shows your agenda]

I show the post you mentioned about 4am and I prinited it and faxed it to the office at that time. {I do not work in the office}

This transaction is being worked on I have since found out; but there are some issues the customer has been ask to clear up; which have not been resolved. {I do not think a public forum is place to discuss that; especially before the customer has provided all the needed info}

It is tru our customer service has been slowed by the insane increase in sales. However, I have more than doubled our warehouse sq ft in the last year AND doubled the office staff. Plus we and working on doubling both those agian to be ready for next spring.

However, e-mails are answered quickly; but not as quick as I would like. And issues are taken care of as soon as they come up. {this special case has been in the works to long; but only due to it being very different and requiring extra research and input from customer}

Now, as to your tone and agenda
I am sorry if you object to people getting bikes at lower prices online than in stores
But you should get used to it; as the 'extra' paid in stores is really increasing in 2009
But consumers will still have choices
and you know I like that


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## tomsmoto (Oct 6, 2007)

this is turning into another BD bash fest. people grabbing at straws for anything possible to throw in mikes face, no matter how petty. if you crack a frame you got somewhere else, what on earth do you expect to happen? for it to magically sense it broke, package itself, and ship itself back for free? 

if you have even a drop of common sense, theres really nothing misleading or unusual about the way business is done with bd. of course common sense might not be so common anymore, but thats not really bd's fault. if you dont know what ordering stuff online entails, you should turn your computer off and step away. 

bd offers a product, and they deliver that product as described for the price described. it may not be the best product, but the price falls inline where the bikes fall inline.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Another of your misleading statements. I didn't pay double for either my Kona or my Giant (both bought new from shops). In fact, I think I payed less for my Kona than you charge for an equivalent(*IF???* equivalent applies)bike.
> 
> Now, here comes your "I never said that". And of course you didn't say that. You said buyers *can* choose to pay double. What you said is meant to lead people to the conclusion that bikes cost double in shops. When someone disputes(with facts) these conclusions, you always come back with "I never said that".
> 
> .


Please tell this guy [who happens to have thousands of posts on BF and knows bikes darn well] That he could find a bike like his for less than double what he paid in a bike shop. I think he beleives that the bike he bought from us for $2000 is better than he could find in ANY SHOP for $5000 or more.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=4649542#poststop

I do not know about your bikes
or who you bought from
or what you paid

I do know the national market
But I can tell you that in most areas of the countryand bikes with specs like the Fantom Team, Fly Team, Fly Team Ti, or Immortal Spirit run a couple thousand more in most shops than we pay for them.

This is not because shops are evil and we are good
It is simple distribution theory. 
Think of the distribution channel as a long extention cord - the longer the cord; the lower the % of power that makes it thru. With the distribution channel; the longer the cord the more cost is picked up as the product passes thru.. It is really very simple.

Now - no maker what you paid
once you have a bike
what is important is ride it, be safe, and enjoy yourself.

Bikes are simple; I like that


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> It is tru our customer service has been slowed by the insane increase in sales. However, I have more than doubled our warehouse sq ft in the last year AND doubled the office staff. Plus we and working on doubling both those agian to be ready for next spring.
> 
> Now, as to your tone and agenda
> I am sorry if you object to people getting bikes at lower prices online than in stores
> ...


So you admit your operation is understaffed despite the incessant comparisons to being just like the big brands eh? Well at least you're honest enough to admit that anyone using your site shouldn't expect the same level of incredible service that they get at any halfway decent LBS! Or a company like Specialized or Trek.

Keep ragging and spreading half truths about the LBS... it only shows your character despite trying to pretend you're the Ghandi of the bike world.

Here's an "awesome" deal I found on bikesdirect for $799:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fantomtrail_ds08.htm

LOL! My favorite quote: "Compare to $2500 Trek or Specialized MTBs" Yeeeeeah ok! Like any decent company would spec a dart fork and no-name brand coil shock on a $2500 bike!

Here's what a real $2500 Trek looks like:

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/mountain_full_suspension/fuel_ex/fuelex8/

Dude, your offering is so far apart it's not even funny. I've ridden this amazing piece of machinery and my LBS sells it not for the $2420 msrp but for the amazing price of $2100 tax included.

Now let's see what a real $800 bike looks like:

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-US/bikes/mountain/1382/29355/

Hmmm... same fork, way better frame and rear suspension. Real warranty, real customer service and free test ride and local service! Much better deal for the newbie all around. I'll take a few "downgraded" components that in reality work just as well to avoid the cheesy rear suspension you put on your offering.

The funny thing is it gets even more comical the more money you spend at your site. You actually sell these bikes with lower grade suspsension components at the SAME exact pricepoint as the majors. Tsk tsk... I can see somebody ripping people off here, and it ain't the companies that have to pay for advertising and the 30% cut for the LBS!


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> Who said this?
> "Carbon Crash Replacement Policy:
> Assessing any damage done to a carbon fiber part requires more experience than is needed to inspect metal parts. If you crash or impact your bike and the force of the impact is absorbed by a carbon part, we strongly encourage you to replace the part, even if there are no indications of damage. If such a crash or impact occurs, XXX offers a crash replacement program for carbon parts, substantially reducing any replacement cost. To take advantage of this program, contact us using the information listed above and ask for the Warranty department."
> 
> ...


Oh sure. More lies demand more truth.

Here's a link to your actual warranty policy in full. As opposed to the snippet you misrepresent as your "crash replacement policy":

http://motobecane.com/warranty001.html

Allow me to point the deception of your legalese...

"If any part of a Motobecane bicycle fails due to a defect, that part* will be replaced for free by an authorized dealer. (*except carbon parts)"

You then go on to claim that carbon parts are replaced at cost...

"Lifetime, No Fault program. Motobecane will replace any carbon fiber frame or part damaged due to defect or any reason AT BELOW MANUFACTURER'S COST."

So NO WARRANTY on CF parts. You break it you bought it, even if they breakage happened due to your no engineering made in China Fiber!

Oh yeah... neat trick to make the warranty policy a gif so it can't be pasted by anyone without whining to the admins and claiming they violated your copyright. Just another example of the shady business practices our Ghandi of the bike world engages in!

PS
How do you charge for warranty labor on a mailorder bike? Do you ship out little elves to fix the bike for free? Or do you actually bill for the hours the LBS put in to replace a frame? I wouldn't put it past you Mike....:nono:


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> Now, as to your tone and agenda
> I am sorry if you object to people getting bikes at lower prices online than in stores


--------------------------Ha, back at ya------"I never said that"
(In fact, I've already stated in another post on this thread that I bought 
my Kona, new(from a shop),for less than you would charge for an 
equivalent bike.)



bikesdirect said:


> But you should get used to it; as the 'extra' paid in stores is really increasing in 2009


--------------------------Are your prices going to stay the same?


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## CRed (Aug 4, 2007)

tomsmoto said:


> this is turning into another BD bash fest. people grabbing at straws for anything possible to throw in mikes face, no matter how petty. if you crack a frame you got somewhere else, what on earth do you expect to happen? for it to magically sense it broke, package itself, and ship itself back for free?
> 
> if you have even a drop of common sense, theres really nothing misleading or unusual about the way business is done with bd. of course common sense might not be so common anymore, but thats not really bd's fault. if you dont know what ordering stuff online entails, you should turn your computer off and step away.
> 
> bd offers a product, and they deliver that product as described for the price described. it may not be the best product, but the price falls inline where the bikes fall inline.


Don't bother trying to make any sense in this thread because it won't make a difference.They have their opinions which they believe are better then others opinions and that they're right no matter what anyone else says so who cares.I bought my sons Trek from the LBS because I figured with a young guy there might be some problems so I wanted the 1 year warranty they offered.Well,it's been in the shop twice now and I've had to pay for everything so next time I'm getting him a bike online because if I'm going to have to pay for everything anyways I might as well save some money on the bike.


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## rearviewmirror (Jun 14, 2006)

Deme Moore said:


> So you admit your operation is understaffed despite the incessant comparisons to being just like the big brands eh? Well at least you're honest enough to admit that anyone using your site shouldn't expect the same level of incredible service that they get at any halfway decent LBS! Or a company like Specialized or Trek.
> 
> Keep ragging and spreading half truths about the LBS... it only shows your character despite trying to pretend you're the Ghandi of the bike world.
> 
> ...


That Giant you pointed out, the $865 one is the REAL comparison for the BD bikes. Good find. Them comparing their $800 bike to a $2500 Trek is laughable, unfortunately their making money on such shady claims.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

e moneybags said:


> Again, I'm not here to bash.. I think you fill a niche.. But this is an interesting quote considering the link I posted to the CT boards. The BD Custy Serv rep asked that the gentleman with the broken bike saw off the rear dropout and send it in, even though the BB shell sustained the cracks.
> 
> Now, if my BB shell is cracked, and I send you an unrelated part of the same bike, you _would _NEVER see any that you thought were defective! :lol:
> 
> (For your ease of locating the thread: http://www.crankfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7646&start=10 )


I am glad you ask this question; especially in the MTBR forum {where I hardly ever post on carbon fiber} HOWEVER, the full answer will be long.

There are four great materials that Motobecanes uses on frames. CF is one. However, CF frames have some issues. One of the biggest issues is that consumers are gernerally scared of them [even those that own them]. Everyone has seen the warnings, most have seen a scary picture of a broken CF frame.

The result is: noone likes riding a CF frame with even a little surface issue; much lees a crack in the paint or clear coat. And many consumers Freak Out if they see anything on the frame.

So a high speed rock hits the downtube; makes a small surface crack; OH NO my frame is about to break in half. Or a dozen other examples. Trek has a fancy way of saying that if your CF frames takes a hit; buy a new one.

Of course, this is different than metal frames.
And even though Motobecane has tested several really nice CF ATB frames; there will not be a CF Motobecane off-road bike; including cyclo cross [where Motobecane is in the top 5 sellers in the USA]

So what about CF road bikes: 
Motobecane Immortals are made by Advance Composites in Taiwan [oldest and best CF maker in Asia - used by many top level Euro brands]
After the first year of selling these; we noted that there were some defect claims but no defects we could establish. We handled these by giving the customer the benefit of the douht.

Then in the same week we had two issues:
Guy A says his top tube is cracked and its a defect - he was just riding along. Ok, we have him box the bike and we pick it up to do frame swap.
Guy B emails and says his Immortal Force fell over and hit his coffe table; there is a small crack; is it safe?
Then Guy A's bike comes in and it has been crashed big time; guess he thought we would not notice the srapes on the shifter, pedals, and seat - and that the bar handle hit the TT right where the crack was.
OK - what do you do?

Here is what I did; I called Guy A and he admited to the crash but pleeds poverty. So I cut him a deal at our cost on frame and do the labor for free and ship it back.

Then I call Guy B and tell him he is straight shotter and I will get him a frame at cost and offer to pick it up. He is in driving distance of Dallas and has a reason to go there; so I arrange for the frame to be there and it gets swapped in the shop. No labor chagre.

THEN I figure this is crazy; it encourages cyclists to not tell the truth about impacts that on a metal frame would mean just a small dig and it makes them freak out. Often freaking out over paint cracks that noone would think twice of on a metal frame.
So we change warranty to no-fualt at our cost [which is lower than a dealer's cost on all CF parts.

We replace crashed CF frames, forks, and cranks on a regular basis. Counting shipping and CC fees; we lose money on each replacement. But it is a service lots of customers appreciate.

We do ask that some part of the CF item be cut off and sent in. Why? Cheap and quick to priority mail a RR DropOut, Fork End, or bottom of crank arms. And we know that 'replaced part' will not be used again or sold on ebay or whatever.

Now the link you supplied is very interesting:
Someone named 'OZ' and sounds all knowledgable and says "cuz they import a ton of super low end carbon frames that are made in China at roughly $200-$250 a pop"

But no Motobecanes are made in China
Immortal Spirit frame has an OE cost of about $300 [then add packing and duty and shipping]
Then he states we make money on the replacement; which is false

Then get this: he raves about how Cannondale is great and implies China is crap
but the truth is - Cannondales CF frames come from topkey in China
and Specialized CF frames come from topkey in China
and Scott used topkey in China
and I could list dozens of 'high zoot' CF frames sold in the USA that are from China
{and OE price on CF frames in China is around $225; which OZ got right even though leaving off duty, frt, etc}

And Euro high zoot frames like Colnago and Look have been using Advanced Composites; these frames cost around $300 OE
Oh wait! that is who makes the Motobecane Immortals - surprise!

{by the way, all this stuff on who makes which CF frames is posted all over the web; which did not seem to imped OZ from saying things that were just not true.

Isn't it all interesting

And on the final point: I have seen a few CF frames from China that I thought were defects; including on a Windsor. Never have I seen a CF frame from Advanced that I thought was a defect. Does not mean there has never been one.

My feeling is our handling of CF issues is better than most makers and it helps our customers a lot; as most CFissues are related to impacts.Of course, since we do not sell CF off road; the number of impact issues is less. My experience is off roading involves a lot of falling off - or is that just me?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Deme Moore said:


> Oh sure. More lies demand more truth.
> 
> . You break it you bought it, even if they breakage happened due to your no engineering made in China Fiber!
> 
> :


Speaking of 'lies'

Could you take the time to do a little research before posting this?

I think it is alright with you that Trek, Specvialized, Giant, Cannondale use CF stuff from China

Then you like to say Motobecanes are from China - when they are not

Your agenda is showing


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## RXL (Feb 8, 2008)

Motobecane warranty dept. said:


> Thanks for choosing Motobecane USA
> We are sorry to hear about your frame - as long as you are the original
> owner with proof of purchase, you can take advantage of our Carbon
> Replacement Program
> ...












Surely $550 is below manufacturer cost for a $300 frameset.


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## RXL (Feb 8, 2008)

nice spelling of manufacturer btw


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## Jacob Chestnut (Apr 19, 2007)

*Why Does Motobecane Have a Bad Rap?*



bikesdirect said:


> Then get this: he raves about how Cannondale is great and implies China is crap
> but the truth is - Cannondales CF frames come from topkey in China


Because they sell their bikes, not on their own merits, but on the half-true demerits of their supposed competitors. In addition, because their owner can't leave these kinds of threads alone, and instead makes false, or misleading statements to make his product seem more competitive.

Please tell everyone exactly which carbon Cannondale frames are made overseas. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt to clarify yourself, but we as consumers shouldn't have to watch and correct retailers who use this site as a source of marketing.

I don't mean to be harsh, but as a user of this site, it is my opinion that you don't add any value (possibly) outside of your own subforum, when you engage in these sorts of conversations. I assume you have many happy customers. You should let them share their experiences, and leave it at that.


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> Speaking of 'lies'
> 
> Could you take the time to do a little research before posting this?
> 
> ...


LOL again! Boy you're killing yourself on this forum...

Cannondale and Trek have cute little "Made in the USA" stickers on their CF frames. Somehow I'll believe them before you. Giant makes their own poop in Taiwan, the same place you claim.

Advanced Composites may be a Taiwanese company, but I'll bet they sub a lot of stuff to mainland China. Unless you want us to believe a big monster like Giant does but they don't...

Finally regardless of where it's made and what it's made of, none of your frames have been engineered by you. And the fact is you DON'T warranty your CF whereas every other brand does. Cracks on the bottom bracket are from your lack of engineering and QC, not crash damage. And you didn't replace such an obvious defect did you? Of course not! You're running a cut rate shop where the customer is always wrong. As a result the decent customers refuse to do business with you and all that's left are the scammers and clueless.

If those cracks ever appeared on a Trek OCLV you can sure as hell bet you'd get a new frame for free. Lifetime warranty too! It's kinda funny cause Trek's replacement cost is not that much more exepnsive that your no name Fiber from the back of a catalog.

Which is why Trek is a big fish and you're still floundering. They respect their customer and build a brand that appeals to enthusiasts who reward them handsomely. While you mine the bottom scrapers who want to pinch every penny from you.

You speak of Ghandi's teachings and yet here you are mired by your own lack of enlightenment! Other smaller comanies come along and blow up bigger than you. They get airtime and sponsor the big boys while you continue to sell triangle-suspension frames straight outta the bike aisle at Walmart.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/400ds.htm

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4231518

Irony indeed... At least Walmart has the decency to price them accordingly!


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jacob Chestnut said:


> Please tell everyone exactly which carbon Cannondale frames are made overseas. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt to clarify yourself,
> 
> .


Sure
No problem
Frame from China

http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/08/cusa/model-8RSS1D.html

I think if you troll the web you will find out all details on it
it is no secret


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Mike, as I've said earlier in this thread, I have no problem with your business, other than the Moto name issue. Further, almost all of the complaints people have here are with policies that you don't make a secret. I don't like some of them, but they are stated clearly on the website, and that's part of getting a really cheap bike. Nothing I think you need to apologize or justify. You are offering a choice.

You need to leave it at that. Some people don't like that choice and are saying so. Just let it be. You have nothing to gain by engaging people in this thread. At best you will come out as defensive, even if everything you say were to be absolutely true. If an erroneous fact regarding BD is stated, clarify it, but you are best off leaving your opinions out of the discussion. You have every right to give them, I'm just suggesting for your own interest that this is not a good place to do it. It just draws more attention to a thread which, when it becomes what it has, can only make your business look bad. It's not fair, but it's the way it goes.

Good luck with your business, I like that you give people another choice.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Deme Moore said:


> LOL again! Boy you're killing yourself on this forum...
> 
> Cannondale and Trek have cute little "Made in the USA" stickers on their CF frames. Somehow I'll believe them before you. Giant makes their own poop in Taiwan, the same place you claim.
> 
> !


You are unware of Trek buying CF frames from ADK and Cannondale buying frames from Topkey? hmmm

What can I say to that?
maybe you should spend more time on some road forums
everyone there seems to know it

and it is posted on bicycle industry sites

I guess next you are going to tell me you are unware that most Treks and Fishers are made in Asia

Giant is a great company; and they make frames in both China and Taiwan; and build bikes in both too [many of the bikes they build ship out with Trek decals on them]

This stuff is not a secret and is the case in lots of industries; not just bikes
all you have to do; is a bit of research

All I have to do is find a way to get enough Moto Immortals to meet the demand we have.
And with the new full 7900 DuraAce Team coming out at less than half what others will charge for Full DA bikes; it will not be easy.

But I say it is easy for consumers
lots of choices out there
Motobecane is one


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

kapusta said:


> Mike, as I've said earlier in this thread, I have no problem with your business, other than the Moto name issue. Further, almost all of the complaints people have here are with policies that you don't make a secret. I don't like some of them, but they are stated clearly on the website, and that's part of getting a really cheap bike. Nothing I think you need to apologize or justify. You are offering a choice.
> 
> You need to leave it at that. Some people don't like that choice and are saying so. Just let it be. You have nothing to gain by engaging people in this thread. At best you will come out as defensive, even if everything you say were to be absolutely true. If an erroneous fact regarding BD is stated, clarify it, but you are best off leaving your opinions out of the discussion. You have every right to give them, I'm just suggesting for your own interest that this is not a good place to do it. It just draws more attention to a thread which, when it becomes what it has, can only make your business look bad. It's not fair, but it's the way it goes.
> 
> Good luck with your business, I like that you give people another choice.


Thank you
Very good advise


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## kolyan2k (May 31, 2008)

Deme Moore said:


> So you admit your operation is understaffed despite the incessant comparisons to being just like the big brands eh? Well at least you're honest enough to admit that anyone using your site shouldn't expect the same level of incredible service that they get at any halfway decent LBS! Or a company like Specialized or Trek.
> 
> Keep ragging and spreading half truths about the LBS... it only shows your character despite trying to pretend you're the Ghandi of the bike world.
> 
> ...


i am an owner of Motobecane 700DS. but this IS a nice post


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## Bends But Doesn't Break (Jun 23, 2008)

I feel that Motobecane has neither a bad rap, nor that BikesDirect deserves the criticism it has been subject to by detractors griping about what I consider trivialities associated with such superficialities as the aspect of "ca. 1923" featured in the badge.

$2100 of my money went to where my mouth is yesterday morning, and as thus a first-time customer of BikesDirect I am optimistic that BikesDirect will "do the right thing" in taking care of me as a customer, in both the immediate/short term of shipping me a quality bike at a highly competitive price that has been achieved by cutting out excess overhead and layers of distribution and utilizing competent and efficient manufacturing sources, as well as in the long term in honoring warranty obligations in the likewise optimistically-anticipated unlikelihood they would ever need to be invoked.

I think a lot of the cynicism and, alas, vitriol, directed toward Mike and BikesDirect is the result of astonishment and bewilderment over how BikesDirect can offer their wares at such substantially reduced cost vs. competitors, irrespective of brand, and that is conceivably "downspec'd" compared to what _could_ have been bought. Coulda, woulda, shoulda..

This incredulity leads to the rationalization that, "This is too good to be true - there has _got _to be a catch" - especially when perhaps one spent as much in _additional_ cost as would have been spent on the cost of a BikesDirect bike in a hard-earned purchase of another non-Moto/non-BD model.

Somebody else had posted the term "cognitive dissonance" here before, and just as economics - a social science - plays a leading role in this discussion, so too does yet another social science: psychology.

Marketing is merely the application of cognitive dissonance in commerce to affect consumer behavior. Remember that.

And remember that Mike is coming to these forums as an industry insider, not just a cyclist and enthusiast with subscriptions to all the requisite glossy monthlies, and even beyond being merely an owner of an LBS. There are mechanisms in this trade, especially at the OEM (which implies design) level, that clearly require differentiation between true and actual function vs. marketing frivolity, er, glitz. Mike has raised several points multiple times that are highly instructive in this respect, which unfortunately appear to have been overlooked, sought to be refuted, or just outright denied by individuals who would most benefit from such enlightenment as they are clearly concerned with the subject matter, about which they retain erroneous notions.

As they say, however, you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

And that's how the world goes 'round.

Peace.


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## eat_dirt (May 26, 2008)

they're decent bikes with older technology and average grade components priced pretty decently.

they have a bad rep.

a low end trek, specialized, fisher, etc. you get at an LBS is probably equally average, but for some reason doesn't get the motobecane treatment.

they allow people to get a lot of bike for the money.

...

and a day or two tweaking and upgrading some of their crappy parts usually gives a half-decent rig, but in the end i don't trust their pivots or dual suspension rear triangle setups because some things can't be done cheap.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Nevermind, but this thread is entertaining and enlightening! I'm seeing a whole bunch of Wally World bikes. 



RXL said:


> Surely $550 is below manufacturer cost for a $300 frameset.


That's a warranty??? LOL...sorry couldn't stay away after reading more of this thread...lol.  More like why not to buy..... 

A good company tells you about their merits and their customers speak well (and freely) of the good company. I never hesitate to relate my own personal experiences good or bad with business so that others can make well informed decisions.


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## Bends But Doesn't Break (Jun 23, 2008)

eat_dirt said:


> they're decent bikes with older technology and average grade components priced pretty decently.
> 
> they have a bad rep.
> 
> ...


The reality is that cycling technology is really not as bleeding-edge as marketing would like you to believe.

Much of the "new" stuff is merely permutation of existing, ongoing - your term: "old" - design that has gotten some window dressing to make it look differentiated enough from something else that's out there around which to fit some slick copy in glossy print ads touting "New and Improved - Worth Spending Just as Much as You Would Have When It Came Out Eight Years Ago!"

In other words, just because a bike has something other than "MOTOBECANE" imprinted on its downtube does not make its "technology" less old. Indeed, more verbally glorified and cosmetically spruced up - but not necessarily inherently "better," including the notion that "newer" does not necessarily mean "better," either.

"Get a lot of bike for the money." I don't know about you, but I don't think that's anything to scoff at.


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## Jacob Chestnut (Apr 19, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> Sure
> No problem
> Frame from China
> 
> ...


Why don't you prove that statement, instead of hiding behind some supposed insider information? You're asserting that the Cannondale Super Six is made in China, when Cannondale says it's produced in their own factory. Prove it.


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## eat_dirt (May 26, 2008)

Bends But Doesn't Break said:


> The reality is that cycling technology is really not as bleeding-edge as marketing would like you to believe.
> 
> Much of the "new" stuff is merely permutation of existing, ongoing - your term: "old" - design that has gotten some window dressing to make it look differentiated enough from something else that's out there around which to fit some slick copy in glossy print ads touting "New and Improved - Worth Spending Just as Much as You Would Have When It Came Out Eight Years Ago!"
> 
> ...


with soft tails it's a big deal, it makes a difference between the pedal bob nightmares of ten years ago to rather sophisticated rigs that are both durable and provide the best of both worlds.

with hard tails you want to make sure the frame is strong and light.

i've seen motobecanes and borrowed one here and there. i think that they're like my zion. pretty decent bikes, but i don't go 10/10 on them.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

Bends But Doesn't Break said:


> The reality is that cycling technology is really not as bleeding-edge as marketing would like you to believe.
> 
> Much of the "new" stuff is merely permutation of existing, ongoing - your term: "old" - design that has gotten some window dressing to make it look differentiated enough from something else that's out there around which to fit some slick copy in glossy print ads touting "New and Improved - Worth Spending Just as Much as You Would Have When It Came Out Eight Years Ago!"
> 
> ...


Is this Mike with a thesaurus???


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## kolyan2k (May 31, 2008)

Walmart (plus tax): http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5585806

Motobecane: http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/700ds.htm

I would rather get 700DS and just about a month ago it was $600


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

kolyan2k said:


> Walmart (plus tax): http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5585806
> 
> Motobecane: http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/700ds.htm
> 
> I would rather get 700DS and just about a month ago it was $600


OK, so a $650 BD bikes beats a $500 bike from Wal-Mart. I certainly hope it would.

I don't think you are doing BD any favors by using a Wal-Mart bike costing 25% less as a benchmark to measure their bike against. Lower the bar enough and anything looks good.


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> You are unware of Trek buying CF frames from ADK and Cannondale buying frames from Topkey? hmmm
> 
> What can I say to that?
> maybe you should spend more time on some road forums
> everyone there seems to know it


Would these forums also contain spam posts from you spreading lies about your competitors? Just because it's somewhere on the web doesn't make it true. Post up some real proof. There are forums that say aliens abducted people. Does that make it true as well? ut:

I know that when I toured Cannondale's Pennsylvania facility they had plenty of frames being welded up. And yes there was a secret carbon fiber fabrication area where we weren't allowed to go into. Maybe they were afraid we'd see all those "Made in China" boxes being unpacked huh? LOL!

I know I can buy a Cannondale FS that has better suspension design for the same price as a Motobecane AND a Made in the USA frame. Not that country of origin matters much. Quality, engineering, execution, customer service, aftersale support and warranty do however.

You still haven't explained to us how your operation beats Cannondale in any of these areas. All we've seen thus far are your pretend newbie spam posts, claims of warranty denials by miffed customers, claims of unreplied emails, etc... You have no local presence that I can take my bike into, either for warranty or free tuneups. Now if your offerings were truly cheaper than the competition you'd have a point. But thus far the only way you offer any "savings" is by comparing your $1200 bike to $3000 bikes which are far far far far far better equipped.

Hell you don't even keep your phone number and address easily visible on your website. Why is that Mike? What are you trying to hide? Is it the fact that your margins on the bikesdirect bikes are far higher than any other OEM? After all, by eliminating the middle man you manage to keep the difference. Maybe knocking off 5% of the typical 40% margin just to keep the cheapskates happy that they got a "deal".


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Deme Moore said:


> I know I can buy a Cannondale FS that has better suspension design for the same price as a Motobecane.......


Such as?

Cannondale uses single pivots and what are essentailly faux bar designs. How are they better suspension designs than the Motobecane faux bar?


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## kolyan2k (May 31, 2008)

kapusta said:


> OK, so a $650 BD bikes beats a $500 bike from Wal-Mart. I certainly hope it would.
> 
> I don't think you are doing BD any favors by using a Wal-Mart bike costing 25% less as a benchmark to measure their bike against. Lower the bar enough and anything looks good.


I dont know why BD increased the price of 700DS. It made more sense back when the price of 700DS was $600 vs Walmart $525(w/ tax)

700DS is an entry level bike from MotobecaneUSA and that Walmart bike is a top model mountain bike from them. So there is really no problem comparing two and for only $75 every single component of 700DS is better.

Another nice bike from Motobecane is Fantom Comp DS, which also has a nice price/components.

There is alot of bullsh1t in MotobecaneUSA business, but some bikes DO have good value and are something to consider


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## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

This thread has turned into astounding evidence that; 
"There's no such thing as bad press." 

:lol:


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## JeffSpicoli (Jan 8, 2008)

Bends But Doesn't Break said:


> I feel that Motobecane has neither a bad rap, nor that BikesDirect deserves the criticism it has been subject to by detractors griping about what I consider trivialities associated with such superficialities as the aspect of "ca. 1923" featured in the badge.
> 
> $2100 of my money went to where my mouth is yesterday morning, and as thus a first-time customer of BikesDirect I am optimistic that BikesDirect will "do the right thing" in taking care of me as a customer, in both the immediate/short term of shipping me a quality bike at a highly competitive price that has been achieved by cutting out excess overhead and layers of distribution and utilizing competent and efficient manufacturing sources, as well as in the long term in honoring warranty obligations in the likewise optimistically-anticipated unlikelihood they would ever need to be invoked.
> 
> ...


Well said....:thumbsup:


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

kapusta said:


> Such as?
> 
> Cannondale uses single pivots and what are essentailly faux bar designs. How are they better suspension designs than the Motobecane faux bar?


Hahaha, I was staying out of it because I said what I had to, but that one is truly hilarious, without comparison.

I try to show people on the forums what they think they know, vs. what specialized marketing campaign made them believe. In fact, my last post was one of them, and I've posted in depth about the old FSR ad campaigns back in the 90's where S made people believe stuff that wasn't true. This one truly takes the cake.

"Faux bar", a dubious term on its own made up by specialized's marketing and propagated nearly ten years after the campaign by riders, refers to arrangements that look like other designs with multi-pivot arrangements that LOOKED like SPECIALIZED's designs, so S had to make people think and indicate something was special about their bikes, since others were making ones that looked alike.

Now if you want, I can take a picture of a Cannondale in my building, go with a ruler to my Turner, and measure the inches of difference between the main pivot locations, with the C'dale being a HIGH SINGLE Pivot forward and above the BB. Then I can also count the number of pivots and suspension support members, which will be: ONE. Then I can go down to my turner and count the number of pivots and suspension support members, the main pivot being above the BB shell and slightly back, within millimeters.

This post really will make endless lol. Out of decency, I won't make it my new signature, however. It does disturbingly display how deep S's marketing campaign has gone, even for people who never saw it first hand. We're several generations of MTBers departed from the first ones reading those MBA ads and articles, and the ideology has gotten deeper within the customers now selling for Specialized (and Ellsworth) with words like that to fellow consumers.


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## LiquidX9 (Jul 30, 2005)

ljsmith said:


> 1. Motobecane has no affiliation with the "real" Motobecane. I agree with the above poster. It is kind of cheesy to license a name from a defunct company and then slap it on your generic bikes. Why not come up with your own name rather than try to trick people into thinking your company is a well respected bike manufacturer.
> 
> 2. The bikes are cheap for the components on them, so people assume the frames must be cheap.
> 
> ...


THis done in the CAr Audio world with 100 X more frequency.

These faltering companies get bought out and the "purchaser" just uses the name as instant recognition/marketing and hopes it's enough to sustain sufficient sales.

The worst case with car audio is Soundstream....now purchased by power Acoustik.

Talk about whoring out the brand name.:madman:


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

First off, I want to say that I agree with everything you said for the most part. Just because two bikes have single pivots does not make them the same, just like if two bikes have horst links it doesn't make them the same. There were a couple things I was confused about in your post though.



Jerk_Chicken said:


> "Faux bar", a dubious term on its own made up by specialized's marketing and propagated nearly ten years after the campaign by riders, refers to arrangements that look like other designs with multi-pivot arrangements that LOOKED like SPECIALIZED's designs, so S had to make people think and indicate something was special about their bikes, since others were making ones that looked alike.


But a single pivot linkage, or faux bar is not the same as a horst link. Whats the problem with Spesh making a distinction? The other companies were using terms like 4-bar rear suspension that was trying to trick customers into thinking they had the same design. Trust me, I loathe the Spesh marketing of "FSR is superior to EVERYTHING" too but I don't see a problem with them trying to distinguish their product from others that are trying to piggyback on their marketing campaign.



Jerk_Chicken said:


> Now if you want, I can take a picture of a Cannondale in my building, go with a ruler to my Turner, and measure the inches of difference between the main pivot locations, with the C'dale being a HIGH SINGLE Pivot forward and above the BB. Then I can also count the number of pivots and suspension support members, which will be: ONE. Then I can go down to my turner and count the number of pivots and suspension support members, the main pivot being above the BB shell and slightly back, within millimeters.


Huh? Are you trying to say that the location of the main pivot is the important thing? Which year Turner do you have, the horst link or the linkage single pivot version? Don't understand what point your trying to make, you lost me here.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Clutchman83 said:


> First off, I want to say that I agree with everything you said for the most part. Just because two bikes have single pivots does not make them the same, just like if two bikes have horst links it doesn't make them the same. There were a couple things I was confused about in your post though.


Yes and no. Bikes with similer or the same designs will often have similer characteristics. Take high pivot single pivot bikes (heckler, some C-dales, etc). There are certain traits that are common throughout these bikes, so generalization isn't necessarily wrong, but you have to know what you're talking about.



> But a single pivot linkage, or faux bar is not the same as a horst link. Whats the problem with Spesh making a distinction? The other companies were using terms like 4-bar rear suspension that was trying to trick customers into thinking they had the same design. Trust me, I loathe the Spesh marketing of "FSR is superior to EVERYTHING" too but I don't see a problem with them trying to distinguish their product from others that are trying to piggyback on their marketing campaign.


Uh, well this is the problem. Specialized didn't just make a "distinction", they first invented the term "true 4-bar", then made it sound like they have the only "true 4-bar" design, and that everything else was a "fake 4-bar". The basic definition that has existed in every other industry is that there are 4 parts to a 4-bar, a classic example is something like a kona, specialized, or ventana, where you have the mainframe, seatstay, chainstay, and linkage of some kind.

This is where everything went downhill. Specialized started making people believe that "4-bar" had something to do with where the rear pivot was placed. It was never true before that point, but an arguably brilliant move by specalized that allows them to "put down" every other design because it's not "true".

Using the definition that existed before specialized, my old cheeta proline with a big swingarm and relatively tiny "moto-linkage" system was also a "4-bar", as there were 4 parts still, the mainframe, the swingarm, the swing linkage, and the connector rod that drove the swing linkage. This is the way that it "used to be".

No one except specialized was trying to "trick" anyone about the suspension design. A ventana is just as much a 4-bar as a specialized or an iron horse hollowpoint, all of those bikes have 4 main parts, hence 4-bar. Companies are not trying to "trick" anyone, except simply let the public know that their design is *LINKAGE DRIVEN*. That is what 4-bar implies.

How many times did I say "FSR" in the above? None, because it was not about the "FSR", it's about the usage of the term "4-bar".



> Huh? Are you trying to say that the location of the main pivot is the important thing? Which year Turner do you have, the horst link or the linkage single pivot version? Don't understand what point your trying to make, you lost me here.


One interesting aspect of this is that a horst-link bike doesn't really get you anything over a single pivot such as a ventana or a turner. The horst-link allows for a virtual pivot, but that virtual pivot is in a location that can be a "real" pivot, and in the big scheme of things, there really isn't much difference.

The difference between a horst-link bike and a single pivot that is designed to have similer characteristics is far less than the difference between either of those and a DW-link or giant Maestro-link design. The anti-squat designed into the DW-link type bikes is far different, resulting in a ride that is much less affected by pedaling inputs (not just talking about bob), but still reacts great to terrain.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Jayem said:


> Yes and no. Bikes with similer or the same designs will often have similer characteristics. Take high pivot single pivot bikes (heckler, some C-dales, etc). There are certain traits that are common throughout these bikes, so generalization isn't necessarily wrong, but you have to know what you're talking about.


Wow! Really? Dude, you just blew my mind  . That was why I said I agree with him that not all single pivots are the same.



Jayem said:


> Uh, well this is the problem. Specialized didn't just make a "distinction", they first invented the term "true 4-bar", then made it sound like they have the only "true 4-bar" design, and that everything else was a "fake 4-bar".


Okay, so thats a Specialized-ism. For some reason I was under the impression that in the bike industry 4-bar was synonymous with Horst link (not FSR). By convention, not by logical deduction as it's easy to understand why those designs were confused. I guess JC is right about Spesh really saturating the market, they got me!



Jayem said:


> One interesting aspect of this is that a horst-link bike doesn't really get you anything over a single pivot such as a ventana or a turner. The horst-link allows for a virtual pivot, but that virtual pivot is in a location that can be a "real" pivot, and in the big scheme of things, there really isn't much difference.


Wait a minute, it allows for that virtual pivot or instant center to change depending on where the wheel is in it's path though. It isn't limited to just one virtual pivot, it can be tuned to give desire-able traits throughout the axle path. Thats why DW and Maestro and Horst links are able to have those great anti-bob characteristics while still remaining active. A single pivot is limited in how the suspension operates which usually means your getting either great pedaling or plush suspension depending on the conditions you set it up for. Thats why the high forward pivot is so popular because it uses chain tension under pedaling to remain firm. I'm by no means a suspension guru but I know some of the basics at least and saying there isn't much difference between a single pivot and a Horst link or newer shorter link 4-bar designs just can't be right.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Clutchman83 said:


> For some reason I was under the impression that in the bike industry 4-bar was synonymous with Horst link (not FSR)


My point exactly.


> Wait a minute, it allows for that virtual pivot or instant center to change depending on where the wheel is in it's path though. It isn't limited to just one virtual pivot, it can be tuned to give desire-able traits throughout the axle path. Thats why DW and Maestro and Horst links are able to have those great anti-bob characteristics while still remaining active. A single pivot is limited in how the suspension operates which usually means your getting either great pedaling or plush suspension depending on the conditions you set it up for. Thats why the high forward pivot is so popular because it uses chain tension under pedaling to remain firm. I'm by no means a suspension guru but I know some of the basics at least and saying there isn't much difference between a single pivot and a Horst link or newer shorter link 4-bar designs just can't be right.


No, the horst-link "vitual pivot" does not change much through the travel as you think it does, it moves very little to nil, also I refrained from saying DW-link was "anti-bob", because there's a lot more to suspension than just pedal bob, there's the squatting while you pedal, which is noticable on climbs for some, and the DW-link addresses this, but it's not designed to be "anti-bob" persay. There's a lot more going on with the CC and IC on a DW link bike, far more than is possible with a horst link.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> Hahaha, I was staying out of it because I said what I had to, but that one is truly hilarious, without comparison.
> 
> I try to show people on the forums what they think they know, vs. what specialized marketing campaign made them believe. In fact, my last post was one of them, and I've posted in depth about the old FSR ad campaigns back in the 90's where S made people believe stuff that wasn't true. This one truly takes the cake.
> 
> ...


Take a deep breath and settle down. You saw "faux bar", went into a Turner tizzy, and lost all capacity to follow the point I was making. Sorry, I forgot there were Turner fans here with big red "faux-bar" buttons on there foreheads just waiting to be pushed.

First off, faux bar is just a term used to distinguish a certain type of four bar. If "faux" gets your panties in a wad then just replace "faux" with "single main pivot and chainstay rear pivot where the rear wheel follows an arc around fixed center" or whatever the Turner approved term is. It does not really make a difference to me, and does not change the point I was making. So you can relax your left butt cheek.

Second, if you actually read the statement I was responding to, then you'd realize that your entire diatribe on the history of Specialized and the FSR is utterly beside the point. I did not say there was anything _wrong _with a _[insert non-offensive term for non-horst link 4 bar]_ OK, now relax the right cheek.

Third, I did not say or imply they are all the same in execution. Actually, if you bother reading what else I've written in this thread, I've stated just the opposite, so you can now relax your sphincter, un-wad your panties and know that the world is not out to diss your Turner's suspension design.

The statement I was responding to was



> I know I can buy a Cannondale FS that has better suspension design for the same price as a Motobecane...


My response is:



> Cannondale uses single pivots and what are essentailly faux bar designs. How are they better suspension designs than the Motobecane faux bar?


Which part of the first statement is not true? I'll let you replace "faux-bar" with whatever makes your blood pressure lower. If you read this as "faux-bars are all the same" that is Turner insecurity talking, not me. I've already said earlier that they are not all the same. The point is, can you or anyone else here explain _why _they think the c-dale execution of this [_insert Turner-sensitive suspension term_] design is any better?

There is also nothing wrong with the high forward pivot design c-dale uses. Actually, I am a fan of it. But how is it superior to the Motobecane's [_insert Turner approved term for faux bar_] design?

I'm leaving Motobecane's single pivot out because I am not a fan of rear single pivots, and I doubt c-dale offers a FS mountain bike for that little money. If one wants to argue that is a crappy design and worse than what c-dale offer, fine, but I believe it is the Fantom 4-bar that is being disputed here.

The problem is that pretty much nobody here has written a word about exactly how Motobecane executes the [_that which will not be called faux bar]_ design that would distinguish it from a c-dale, version of the [_un-nameable design_]

Interesting thing is, as much as you may want to laugh at the question, you never were able to answer it.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> Did you start this thread to make an ad for BD?
> 
> There is plenty of healthy discussion here, that you spawned, and now you discount it? You're either trying to sell for BD or trolling or both.


I started this thread for the same reason that Harriet Tubman started the Underground Railroad.If you get my drift.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Jayem said:


> My point exactly.
> 
> No, the horst-link "vitual pivot" does not change much through the travel as you think it does, it moves very little to nil, also I refrained from saying DW-link was "anti-bob", because there's a lot more to suspension than just pedal bob, there's the squatting while you pedal, which is noticable on climbs for some, and the DW-link addresses this, but it's not designed to be "anti-bob" persay. There's a lot more going on with the CC and IC on a DW link bike, far more than is possible with a horst link.


Okay, I'm here for class if you want to play as I've heard these terms thrown around quite a bit and I thought I had a firm grasp on them. Just a few questions for you; What exactly is the instant center if it is not the point at which the rear wheel is pivoting around? I'll buy the concept that a horst link generates a virtual pivot point that doesn't move much, is that related to the length of the lower pivot in relation to the location of the rear axle? I understand there have to be at least four variables going on here, location of the pivot on the frame, location of the pivot between the axle and the frame, the location of the axle, and the orientation of the upper pivot. Is there an easy way of determining how each affects the characteristics of the design or is this in the realm of physics and computer modeling?

I know I'm dragging this thread terribly off-topic, if you can refer me to one that addresses these questions let me know, or I can start a new one.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Clutchman83 said:


> Okay, I'm here for class if you want to play as I've heard these terms thrown around quite a bit and I thought I had a firm grasp on them. Just a few questions for you; What exactly is the instant center if it is not the point at which the rear wheel is pivoting around? I'll buy the concept that a horst link generates a virtual pivot point that doesn't move much, is that related to the length of the lower pivot in relation to the location of the rear axle? I understand there have to be at least four variables going on here, location of the pivot on the frame, location of the pivot between the axle and the frame, the location of the axle, and the orientation of the upper pivot. Is there an easy way of determining how each affects the characteristics of the design or is this in the realm of physics and computer modeling?
> 
> I know I'm dragging this thread terribly off-topic, if you can refer me to one that addresses these questions let me know, or I can start a new one.


I'm no super expert on this, but the center of curvature vs the instant center is the issue. The center of curvature doesn't change much at all on a horst link bike. On a DW or similer type of bike (generally referred to as a parallel linkage bike) this is far from true. The CC changes radically, as does the IC.

In any case, the horst link is far from the "holy grail" of suspension that specialized makes it out to be, but as other companies have evolved and come up with new stuff, specialized has been "stuck" because of all the marketing they invested into the "true 4-bar", so maybe it will come back around to bite them eventually. Otherwise, linkage actuated single pivot bikes can do everything a horst link can do, now with the trek/dw split-pivot, they too can have the same braking characteristics. Any differences are infintesimal in my experience. Not so for DW/Maestro-link. Both of those systems are much improved and simply work better. It's not that horst link is ill-performing (I have one myself), it's just that it was never the holy grail as specialized made it out to be. I can't recall any horst links that I've seen, ever, that didn't bob. Of course some had excessive compression damping for a harsh ride, and I don't count those, but otherwise the horst link is a good design that has some problems, such as designing around having a pivot in between the rear dropout and the main pivot, which requires good execution to remain laterally rigid. It's not the most "efficient" pedaling system out there, and some people even prefer some squat during braking (even though I'm not one of them). I've even had multiple horst link bikes, including the one designed by DW, once again it was nothing special. My moto-linkage driven cheeta had better characteristics, and it should with the higher more forward pivot combined with a single-ring (so the chainline intersects close to the pivot). That more rearward initial movement makes for better bump absorption characteristics and the linkage controlled the suspension very well. Once again, horst link is simply not a "holy grail" and specialized has done a pretty good job making everyone think that it's the only "true 4-bar" system, which is a flat out inaccuracy that is intended to decieve people.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> Now if you want, I can take a picture of a Cannondale in my building, go with a ruler to my Turner, and measure the inches of difference between the main pivot locations, with the C'dale being a HIGH SINGLE Pivot forward and above the BB.


You do realize that not all C-dales are high forward single pivots, right?

http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/08/cusa/model-9VT3.html


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

kapusta said:


> You do realize that not all C-dales are high forward single pivots, right?
> 
> http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/08/cusa/model-9VT3.html


No, and there were quite a few that had lower pivots, but I'll be damed if cannondale didn't tell us throughout the years that they didn't need to build bikes with linkages and that monopivots were where it was at. Funny to see them go completely backwards on that after so many years.


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## ash240 (Jun 2, 2007)

Hmmm

So, If I buy a CF framed bike from you and it fails due to a defect I have to pay for a replacement? 
What % of CF warrenty jobs are done without the customer paying?

In my country it would be quite illegal to charge for a warrenty replacment of a defective product  No matter what rubbish is put into a warrenty, over here it does not void my rights under the law. Even AFTER the warrenty period, if I have not had a "reasonable" life out of the product (time VS cost) I have grounds to seek a refund, replacment or fix. Mr Sony and many other MFR's have found this out quite a few times. 

I would think ANY retailer that cannot stand by something they sell for AT LEAST one year is suspect. If you do not do this with CF then you should not sell it. That you are more interested in sales than looking after the customer can be shown IF I understand what you are saying, that you sell a product yet if it's defective the customer is expected to pay for a replacment. 

Is is really true that in the USA you have no rights for basic warrenty protection?


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

kapusta said:


> Take a deep breath and settle down. You saw "faux bar", went into a Turner tizzy, and lost all capacity to follow the point I was making. Sorry, I forgot there were Turner fans here with big red "faux-bar" buttons on there foreheads just waiting to be pushed.
> 
> First off, faux bar is just a term used to distinguish a certain type of four bar. If "faux" gets your panties in a wad then just replace "faux" with "single main pivot and chainstay rear pivot where the rear wheel follows an arc around fixed center" or whatever the Turner approved term is. It does not really make a difference to me, and does not change the point I was making. So you can relax your left butt cheek.
> 
> ...


I want to thank all of you guys for all this great information about Motobecane and other bikes.My intent for this thread was to find out why some view Motos as "not s good as other brands because they cost less and are not as good as other brands in the bike world".This thread ties in with my attempt to bring mountain biking to people who really know nothing about the sport and can't afford to spend mega bucks to find out.The knowledge you guys have is helping that happen.i didn't have internet or forums to tech me and help me out when I started out.Just bike shop owners who only wanted to take all my money and sell me the bike they could make the biggest profit on-then laugh behind my back when they helped me to make the worst decisions about everything I wanted to know about.I'm not going to get religious here, but somebody didn't want that to happen.Now I try to help everyone who wants help.The same way you guys are helping me out.Mountain biking...fun sport...indeed it is.Everybody...Ride On! :thumbsup: ---zarr


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## mbogosia (Aug 2, 2004)

I have been using my Motobecane For quite a while now and love it. The frame is holding up quite nicely. In fact all my problems are coming from the components I put on it. This is a great bike for the price.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

ash240 said:


> Hmmm
> 
> So, If I buy a CF framed bike from you and it fails due to a defect I have to pay for a replacement?
> What % of CF warrenty jobs are done without the customer paying?
> ...


Here is the problem; the word 'defect'
Bike Makers have a very hard time spotting defective CF frames; not true with metal.

With CF there are lots of claims of defect due to the customer not understanding the material, being scared, or not being straight with the seller.

We have no issue with replacing defects; which are so rare in our industry that no thoughtful seller has a problem with it.

If you know of a sure fire simple and inexpensive way to determine if a crack in a CF frame was due to defect or due to frame taking an impact; I and everyother seller would love to hear about it.

One year is not long enough for me on defects when they can be established. That is why we warranty all parts except CF forever against defects. But fights with customers over weather their CF frame just cracked for no reason or they run it into a garage door while it was on top of the car is not something we want to go thru. So in practice; what we do is get them the CF item at or below our cost and frequently install it for free [which in case of a frame is over $100 of free service]

Luckily; this is an almost mute matter; as we get so few claims anyway. And our warranty on CF frames is very clear and rather fair {especially for those that crash}.

What is extra interesting about this is: this discussion is on MTBR and we sell no CF off road bikes - only steel, aluminum, and Ti. And we will not be adding CF to the ATB or CX lines; as hard falls and impacts are a regular event on many off road bikes.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> Luckily; this is an almost mute matter; as we get so few claims anyway. And our warranty on CF frames is very clear and *rather fair* {especially for those that crash}.


WRONG! So what your saying is, we can't tell if you wrecked your frame or we did, so you have to pay for it. How is that fair? I understand you have to protect yourselves from getting taken by a careless customer but this is not a fair policy for those who do experience a genuine defect. And it's moot matter, not mute... 

This is why I still have reservations about buying a CF frame, there's no protection for the buyer.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> What is extra interesting about this is: this discussion is on MTBR and we sell no CF off road bikes - only steel, aluminum, and Ti. And we will not be adding CF to the ATB or CX lines; as hard falls and impacts are a regular event on many off road bikes.


Then why do you quote road bike reviews in this discussion??


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## ash240 (Jun 2, 2007)

"We have no issue with replacing defects; which are so rare in our industry that no thoughtful seller has a problem with it."

What? "thoughtful seller"? You charge a fee for "warrenty" on CF frames. This is quite dishonest and illegal in my country. It's a real pity you are able to get away with rubbish like this. 

"If you know of a sure fire simple and inexpensive way to determine if a crack in a CF frame was due to defect or due to frame taking an impact; I and everyother seller would love to hear about it. "

Most retailers offer a real warrenty on CF products. Why are you not able to?
YOU decided to sell the product, why is it the customers problem you don't know how to support it AND refuse to act in a reasonable manner? 
What I would do is look at stress points and look for abuse (dents as an example). You could state in your warrenty that you have the option to dissasemble the part for inspection and IF the fault is abuse, charge cost price (or whatever). Cut out the section which has failed and inspect it. If should be quite easy to check for fault from the reverse side on most occasions. (That you have NFI about this is interesting)
From what I have read, you do not even inspect many CF parts. 
Is this correct? That you ask the customer to send in part of the frame to show it has been removed from service BUT not inspect the actual failed part. I have found at least one claimed case of you doing this. IF this is true it shows you do not even act in good faith.

"One year is not long enough for me on defects when they can be established."

Eh? What are you on about? 

"That is why we warranty all parts except CF forever against defects."

It would be foolish to offer a lifetime warrenty on CF BUT you you seem not to offer ANY warrenty on it. If you charge for replacment of defective products it is NOT a warrenty 
Lets all take note of the "spin" you tried on that point..... (and most others)

" But fights with customers over weather their CF frame just cracked for no reason or they run it into a garage door while it was on top of the car is not something we want to go thru. So in practice; what we do is get them the CF item at or below our cost and frequently install it for free [which in case of a frame is over $100 of free service"

There we go, you would rather screw the customer over than act in a fair and reasonable manner. You would rather sell something you are unable to support than do as most honest people would. 


"What is extra interesting about this is: this discussion is on MTBR and we sell no CF off road bikes -"

Why is this "interesting"? The thread was about your "bad rap" and we can see at least some of the reasons for it. When I look at a business, I look at the whole thing. You might prefer us to ignore your bad behaviour and only look at the good but I know many would be happy to avoid suspect businesses. Don't try to spin about this, don't try to deflect from the facts. It will just cause someone like me to spend time exposing the many faults and real issues with your statments. 

I knew nothing about you before I read this thread, My first post was going to be asking why at least one poster had been claiming you said something you clearly did not. I continued to read and look into you and can now understand why some people have such an issue with your behaviour. I do think they should let the facts speak and not make crap up. The facts are sufficent to show you in a poor light indeed, I know in my country you would be acting illegally AND at the very least it is immoral to "warrent" CF as you do.
Don't like the problems from selling CF? Don't sell it. You are happier to make the money and risk screwing the customer than do this though and this is why I would never trust or deal with you. People are not selective, if they act in an unreasonable manner on one issue, then you will find it is consistent behaviour with them.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

ash240 said:


> Most retailers offer a real warrenty on CF products. Why are you not able to?
> YOU decided to sell the product, why is it the customers problem you don't know how to support it AND refuse to act in a reasonable manner?
> What I would do is look at stress points and look for abuse (dents as an example). You could state in your warrenty that you have the option to dissasemble the part for inspection and IF the fault is abuse, charge cost price (or whatever). Cut out the section which has failed and inspect it. If should be quite easy to check for fault from the reverse side on most occasions. (That you have NFI about this is interesting)
> From what I have read, you do not even inspect many CF parts.
> ...


You have mentioned how things are done in your country a couple of times. I am sure you have some very nice customs whereever it is you live. But in our case, we have stopped exporting due to the fact that we can not get enough bikes to satisfy the USA demand for our bikes. So the issue of the rules or customs in other countries are not something we think about alot. Maybe if we ever get to where we can get enough bikes to start export again; we will research which countries are best for our style. You might think Canada would be the closest and best market for us; and we get e-mails daily on requests to ship to Canada; but we can not get enough stock even to supply the nice people right north of our broader.

I do not know what you call a 'real' warranty on CF frames - that is what we are talking about since claims on forks and cranks just never occur [in my experience].

Problem with CF frames is looking for dents does not help. The frames do not dent and if you see a 'dent' on shifter, pedal, der and decide to not warranty due to crash - customer does not like that AND you can not prove the CF issue was due to the crash.

It is NOT easy or even possible in most cases to inspect from inside via disstructive testing and determine a CF tube was 'defective'.

This is a major issue in the industry. Many use the 'low cost no fault' replacement method; just like we do. Others fight the 'defect' claims or charge a lot on the frame change out.

Our approach is fraames at our import cost; then in most cases wave shipping one way; and in every case in the last 30 years I have waived labor and put on new required change over small peices for free [cables, etc].

Most CF frame replacements on ALL brands are due to crashes or other impacts. Clearly our method is the lowest cost to the customer of CF frame replacement in the entire industry in those cases.

If you want to assume 'defects' are a big problem in high CF frames; then you may want to buy elsewhere. If you think the need to replace a frame is most likely from an impact; we are clearly the best in these cases. And you can combine that with our prices being 40 to 50 percent lower and come out far ahead. Enough buyers agree with that analysis that we can never get as many high end bikes as we can sell.

But clearly; on all bikes it is important to read the warranty. This is especailly true if you feel there is a high probability of a defect [which flys in the face of the real situation in our industry; but this is about your feelings when you buy]

Choices are good
Understanding your choices is good
I like choices


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## ash240 (Jun 2, 2007)

"You have mentioned how things are done in your country a couple of times. I am sure you have some very nice customs whereever it is you live."

Yes, I'm shocked you can get away with not offering warrenty on a new product. That's why I mention it. It's also interesting to note that in many countries your "warrenty" policy is quite illegal.

" But in our case, we have stopped exporting due to the fact that we can not get enough bikes to satisfy the USA demand for our bikes."

What did I say about spin? If you want to play that game I will step up 
For all we know your limited supply issues are due to second or third grade products 
This may well explain why you refuse to offer warrenty on new products. Over runs, low grade production runs and many other similar causes can explain why you have stock issues  Should we go into detail on these points? If you keep pushing the spin in the replies I will do the same thing.

" So the issue of the rules or customs in other countries are not something we think about alot."

As I said, that is more about the fact you are able to get away with what you are doing. From the point of view of most reasonable people your time would clearly be better spent thinking about the moral issues involved in not supporting something you sell 

"I do not know what you call a 'real' warranty on CF frames - that is what we are talking about since claims on forks and cranks just never occur [in my experience]."

IF "real" issues are so uncommon with CF why do you not warrent any CF product?
a "real" warrenty is just that. Your CF "warrenty" is not on ANY level a warrenty. It is a cost replacment program EVEN IF THE PRODUCT IS DEFECTIVE, you expect the customer to pay. So for all we know you are buying up low grade CF products and dumping them on the consumer. Maybe only a few per batch will fail. since you clearly have so little faith in the CF products you sell we really should wonder about this.

"Problem with CF frames is looking for dents does not help."

Really? Have you looked? It DOES give surface indications of a blow. In addition to the other methods I suggested you could have a good idea of possible abuse. I suggest you seek some training and understand how to analyze composite failure modes.

" The frames do not dent and if you see a 'dent' on shifter, pedal, der and decide to not warranty due to crash - customer does not like that AND you can not prove the CF issue was due to the crash."

So, it's better to offer no warrenty at all?

"It is NOT easy or even possible in most cases to inspect from inside via disstructive testing and determine a CF tube was 'defective'. "

Why not? You are already asking the customer to hack the frame up right?
So, you assume EVERY CF failure is due to abuse and offer no warrenty without viewing the parts? Then come on here with BS spin about this and that not being possible. Yet, it is IF you have an understanding of the subject 

"This is a major issue in the industry. Many use the 'low cost no fault' replacement method; just like we do. Others fight the 'defect' claims or charge a lot on the frame change out."

Who? Name the companies who refuse to warrent any CF products as you are. Companies that do not even view most failures.

"Our approach is fraames at our import cost; then in most cases wave shipping one way; and in every case in the last 30 years I have waived labor and put on new required change over small peices for free [cables, etc]."

More Spin. The FACT is you do not support a product you sell. You do NOT warrenty a BRAND new product. There is no reasonable grounds to do this, it is dishonest and quite poor behaviour.

"Most CF frame replacements on ALL brands are due to crashes or other impacts. Clearly our method is the lowest cost to the customer of CF frame replacement in the entire industry in those cases."

Spin again. Why should a customer not have ANY warrenty on a BRAND NEW product?

"If you want to assume 'defects' are a big problem in high CF frames; then you may want to buy elsewhere. If you think the need to replace a frame is most likely from an impact; we are clearly the best in these cases. And you can combine that with our prices being 40 to 50 percent lower and come out far ahead. Enough buyers agree with that analysis that we can never get as many high end bikes as we can sell."

More spin, the FACT is you supply something then wash your hands of supporting the customer. You EXPECT them to pay if the product is faulty. You do not know or understand how the product can be checked AND have no interest in doing so. We can see this by the policy of expecting the customer to PAY for a second frame without even inspecting for failure modes.

"But clearly; on all bikes it is important to read the warranty. This is especailly true if you feel there is a high probability of a defect [which flys in the face of the real situation in our industry; but this is about your feelings when you buy]"

It is even MORE important to know how the retailer will act and how they treat the customer. In your case you treat them very very poorly.

Quite simply, this is why you have a poor reputation. Matter of fact, it seems to me you have a far better reputation than you should have.


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## RXL (Feb 8, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> you may want to buy elsewhere.


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

kapusta said:


> Such as?
> 
> Cannondale uses single pivots and what are essentailly faux bar designs. How are they better suspension designs than the Motobecane faux bar?


Well Cannondale and others make a big stink about the uniqueness of their chosen linkages. Placement of pivots, angles, etc... Just because somebody is using a four-bar linkage doesn't mean all such designs will perform identical. It all boils down to design and what you're trying to accomplish. Move the pivot a little, totally different response! Big OEMs talk about their designs. Bikesdirect? Nada. ONly talks about price. If they had something to crow about then why not?

Now I know Mike will come along any minute now and dismiss this as marketing gobbledeygawk. He'll tell us that his generic spec'd frames from Kinesis perform just like "the big name brands" and that the customer of such companies is being robbed by both the OEM and LBS. That a FS is FS and it's all good enough. That his platform pedal shocks will cancel out his dept. store rear suspension bobbing just as well.

Newbies might fall for that. After all they have nothing to compare it to. All they see is a "great price" by comparing an $800 bike with a generic non-platform shock to a $2500 bike with all the bells/whistles. Experienced riders have tried different designs and know this is pure BS on Mike's part.

Giant's Maestro link for example is a pure dream to pedal. The bike climbs like a hardtail even without platform damping on the shock. For Mike to come on here and say his bikes are "just as good" is pure fantasy. If not downright dishonest.

That's the reason why Motobecane has such a bad rap. Badmouthing other brands, the LBS model of doing business and inventing an excuse a minute for why the customer is always wrong. All the while making more margin per bike than any of the top name majors.

Typical markup on an LBS is 40%. The dealer needs to make a buck too. Does Mike price his wares 40% less? No, not unless you believe his "comparisons" to much higher spec'd offerings.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

> Well Cannondale and others make a big stink about the uniqueness of their chosen linkages. Placement of pivots, angles, etc... Just because somebody is using a four-bar linkage doesn't mean all such designs will perform identical. It all boils down to design and what you're trying to accomplish. Move the pivot a little, totally different response!


I completely agree, but I noticed you did not answer the question. What makes c-dales suspension design superior? Is it pivot placement? How is it different and why is their placement better?



> Big OEMs talk about their designs. Bikesdirect? Nada. ONly talks about price. If they had something to crow about then why not?


Are you seriously suggesting that a measure of suspension design is how much of a stink a company makes of ?ut:

Does C-dale give any explanation about _why _their design is better? If you download the tech sheet on their 4-bar, it basically says that it optimizes bump performance while pedaling well, with no explanation of how, or why it is any better than any other similar design.



> Experienced riders have tried different designs and know this is pure BS on Mike's part.


Although no one can tell me why his [_turner approved term for non-horst 4-bar_] is inferior to any other similar 4-bar design out there.



> Giant's Maestro link for example is a pure dream to pedal. The bike climbs like a hardtail even without platform damping on the shock. For Mike to come on here and say his bikes are "just as good" is pure fantasy. If not downright dishonest.


Actually, he said it was as good as any _4-bar_ out there. While _technically_, the maestro is a 4-bar, I think it is understood that he was talking about what is termed "faux bar" (sorry JerkChicken, you have not given me a new term to use). While I agree that he probably has no evidence to back that up, I also have seen no evidence to the contrary.

What I find interesting is that while some people are hammering this guy for unsubstantiated claims (a legit thing to do, and I agree that it should be taken with a grain of salt)), they end up making even bigger unsubstantiated claims in the process (like the one I was responding to about c-dales suspension design being superior).


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

kapusta said:


> I completely
> What I find interesting is that while some people are hammering this guy for unsubstantiated claims (a legit thing to do, and I agree that it should be taken with a grain of salt)), they end up making even bigger unsubstantiated claims in the process (like the one I was responding to about c-dales suspension design being superior).


Nice point. Only one difference...

WE are just a bunch of enthusiasts babbling about our passion for MTBs on these forums. What we say may or not always be 100% correct but for the most part we can smell BS from a mile away.

Mike is the owner/operator of Bikesdirect.com who has a vested interest in pushing his product, often at the expense of his competition. Unlike most of his competition, he actually floods this forum with "press" about his bikes every given opportunity.

When someone has a vested interest in spouting lies, it's perfectly acceptable for the roundtable to take them to task. If you believe Mike then:

All suspension designs are good enough since the advent of platform damping.

Carbon Fiber is too picky of a frame material to offer any kind of warranty on.

$2500 bikes from major OEMs are the equivalent of his $800 offerings with no-name brand coil shocks.

The big names high end stuff in China while he maintains 100% Taiwanese manufacture.

The LBS offers lousy pricing and service.

The LBS will assemble your Motobecane perfectly for $40 (note direct contradiction with above).

The list can go on forever. Mike is certainly not the only person selling stuff online. He's only being "picked" on for his questionable practices.

My adivce to the newbies... if you're going to spend $1000 on an online bike then pick up the Giant Trance 2 for the same money:

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-US/bikes/mountain/1283/29372/

Whatever downgrades in the componentry you might find will be more than eclipsed by the incredible performance from the Maestro rear end.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

kapusta said:


> Actually, he said it was as good as any _4-bar_ out there. While _technically_, the maestro is a 4-bar, I think it is understood that he was talking about what is termed "faux bar" (*sorry JerkChicken, you have not given me a new term to use*). While I agree that he probably has no evidence to back that up, I also have seen no evidence to the contrary.
> 
> What I find interesting is that while some people are hammering this guy for unsubstantiated claims (a legit thing to do, and I agree that it should be taken with a grain of salt)), they end up making even bigger unsubstantiated claims in the process (like the one I was responding to about c-dales suspension design being superior).


NonHorst link Four Bar could be one, or perhaps in the case of the Turner Rocker models "Rocker Type" suspension was always what i've read it as, even going back years before I was a Turner owner. Some also called it "walking beam". The location of the dropout pivot doesn't constitute the suspension type. If you want to describe it, then it's still a four bar, but not with a Horst Link.

It's not like even the linkage program finds a tangible difference in the axle geometry between EW and Turner's TNT, let alone EW and Turner's Horst Link. Turner designed around axle path always, and that's what he continues to do now.

Oh yeah, the question of this thread is being answered very well. I hope it continues to be productive and revealing as it already has proven to be.

And I do agree about how ludicrous it is to not offer a warranty. Go over to the Ibis forum. There are people having BB failures and other stuff and getting zero grief. Scott did the same thing as well.

And that was my point in the lengthy post mike tried to discredit a few pages ago. The consumers have the power here, being a CONSUMER forum, and the right to bring a manufacturer/designer/marketer over the coals. If all is as they say, then there's nothing to worry about, nothing to pick apart, and nothing to be defensive about.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Deme Moore said:


> Nice point. Only one difference...
> 
> WE are just a bunch of enthusiasts babbling about our passion for MTBs on these forums. What we say may or not always be 100% correct but for the most part we can smell BS from a mile away.
> 
> ...


I can agree with all of that.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

> NonHorst link Four Bar could be one, or perhaps in the case of the Turner Rocker models "Rocker Type" suspension was always what i've read it as, even going back years before I was a Turner owner. Some also called it "walking beam". The location of the dropout pivot doesn't constitute the suspension type. If you want to describe it, then it's still a four bar, but not with a Horst Link.


Thanks. When I know you are reading, I'll use "non-horst 4-bar".



> Oh yeah, the question of this thread is being answered very well. I hope it continues to be productive and revealing as it already has proven to be.


I agree. My point was that the question you gave me such a hard time about has not been answered



> And I do agree about how ludicrous it is to not offer a warranty. Go over to the Ibis forum. There are people having BB failures and other stuff and getting zero grief. Scott did the same thing as well.
> 
> And that was my point in the lengthy post mike tried to discredit a few pages ago. The consumers have the power here, being a CONSUMER forum, and the right to bring a manufacturer/designer/marketer over the coals. If all is as they say, then there's nothing to worry about, nothing to pick apart, and nothing to be defensive about.


I agree. Those are good points.

The fact that manufacturers and marketers are called to task and called on BS is part of what makes this site so valuable. I just think that the process has more credibility when the points being raised and the criticisms of a product or company are reasonable and accurate. A lot of people are expressing their opinions about BD, and that is totally valid and should be encouraged. Some are also bringing up facts or casting doubt on claims that BD makes. Also valid and useful. What is not useful is stating uninformed opinion as fact or even as informed opinion. The statement regarding c-dale's superior suspension is an example. I'm not saying it is not superior by design, but we really don't know. In fact, I don't think anyone here even has a very informed opinion about it (or if they do, they have not shared it). If the point of the thread becomes to bash BD in any way you can, accurate or otherwise, then the thread will be viewed that way, and even good valid points loose their credibility as mere "hating". It gives the discussion more of a political campaign flavor than constructive discussion.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

Wouldn't it be easier to refer to them as "Seatstay pivot 4bar" and "chainstay pivot 4bar".

That way youre classing them according to what they are - rather than taking the marketing bullcrap into account, you also take people like Ellsworth into account (who claim they dont use a horst link - but cant deny its a chainstay pivot).


Would seem relatively obvious if you asked me :idea:


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

This is Great Thread that points out all the fantastic choices have today.

Lots of opinions on CF bikes
Lots of opionions on CF Road bikes

Seems that there are some buyers that likeFS frame designs other than 4-bar link and that they would not like a bike like a Fantom Team. And then there are lots of buyers who love the Fantom Team; enough that we sell out as soon as they come in.

Seems some shoppers think that a very important feature on a CF Road bike is a long defect warranty. There are other cyclists that think defects are rare and would prefer a low cost on fault CF frame replacement policy. Some like CF designs of Cannondale, Specialized, or Scott; some like an Immortal Spirit. Enough like Moto Immortals that we run out before we can get more.

~~~~~

Since FS and CF road have been beaten to death
How about ultra light 29er hardtails? Say those that weigh 23lbs - good for XC and such.

Some buyers might like a CF version; some a Ti version.
Some like XO; some XTR
Some like FOX, some RockShox

Sounds like there should be choices!



















And then there is the question of how much a 23 lb HT 29er should cost with all top end stuff.

And then there is the question of warranty. Maybe it would be nice if they are both lifetime against defects. {of course, on the CF version the maker might say something like _If the force of an impact is absorbed by your carbon frame; you should buy a new one; even if the old one looks OK_}

And so I think it is great if choices in this type of bike is offered.

I also like choices in SS/FG, CX, HT, hybrid, cruiser, touring, commuting and really all types of bikes. I can not think of one catagory where only one flavor is needed.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

*Why do you resort to selling your products on a public discussion forum?*



07dbrider said:


> i currently have a 07 db coil ex, i would like to get a new frame. the one i have now is kinda heavy and doens't ride that nice. it also doesn't look that good.
> 
> im looking for a xc style frame for around $500 and air shock.
> 
> can you guys recommend and good frame for around $500? im only 14 so i wont be able to buy a $1000 frame.





bikesdirect said:


> Sold a lot of these
> And it is only $360 including rear shock and shipping
> 
> http://bikeisland.com/cgi-bin/BKTK_STOR20.cgi?Action=Details&ProdID=491


???????


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> And then there is the question of how much a 23 lb HT 29er should cost with all top end stuff.....


That is beautiful, I'll be buying one when it goes on pre-order. When can I buy one :thumbsup:

to those that made it this far  and are on the fence about buying a Bike Direct bike, here's my take:

We can conclude the HT bikes are OK by the lack of attacks  ? They demand we agree BD FS bikes suck, then complain they can't test ride them, hmmmm  Emotional tripe and all the experince that comes with a parking lot test ride doesn't hold much sway with me. I'd like to hear from someone with real riding experience, an ME degree and knowledge of suspension design would be nice. I need someone with more than an MTB internet degree and a tape measure 

For some of these slaggers, the bike is the end, their "meat". They don't ride, instead spending all their "bike" time on endless bike rags re-reads and waxing. An hour of riding with the likes of them would be like eating corndogs for a week. For me, it's pure filet when I'm out riding with my sons, seeing the sights, enjoying the time together.

BD allows my family to have more bike for the money. With five riders and a 10% sales tax, that's serious cash. I've purchased three so far, I won't hesitate to buy again. Thanks for the choices, Mike and BD, you're what makes America great :thumbsup:


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> That is beautiful, I'll be buying one when it goes on pre-order. When can I buy one :thumbsup:
> 
> to those that made it this far  and are on the fence about buying a Bike Direct bike, here's my take:
> 
> ...


Thanks for your business
and your vote of confidence

The Fantom Team 29 Ti will be out in January
and we will run a low deposit pre-book on it at a big discount starting soon.

I feel this bike is nicer than other light weight 29ers that sell for $4000 to $5000 and on the pre-book our price will be $1795. Once in stock the 'normal' sale price will be $1995.

Considering the equipment and frame; I think that is the best buy in the USA on a 29er HT.

Here are some frame closeups for those not familiar with our Ti frames [which Mountain Bike Action called 'stunning' ]

I am very excited about this bike; and I do agree that I will not be as nervous about falling and the frame hitting a rock as I would be on CF.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> ???????


_ "im looking for a xc style frame for around $500 and air shock.

can you guys recommend and good frame for around $500? im only 14 so i wont be able to buy a $1000 frame."_

A kid who is tight on money is looking for a good deal on a XC FS frame with air shock

I think he can get a great proven frame for $360 new with a nice shock

and you do not want to help him out with a serious reccommendation
but you want to attack me instead

You certainly do not have the force with you

~~~ 
Now for this teenager who wants a frame

Maybe there are other choices out there that someone can reccommend, that would be helpful to another cyclist

I think that would be good - choices are good and helping out a 14 year old on a tight budget is good too.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> Thanks for the choices, Mike and BD, you're what makes America great :thumbsup:


Oh, gag me please.

I don't have a problem with BD for the most part, other than Mikes overzealous defense of his company (theres always gonna be haters dude, and your not going to scare them off over the internet), but this statement is just downright ridiculous.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Clutchman83 said:


> I don't have a problem with BD for the most part, other than Mikes overzealous defense of his company .


You feel I am overzealous

Watch this:


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

So you're saying you will warranty your Ti frames, if they break due to falling off a highway and getting run over by a truck because if they break, that means there's a manufacturer's defect?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> So you're saying you will warranty your Ti frames, if they break due to falling off a highway and getting run over by a truck because if they break, that means there's a manufacturer's defect?


Now that is funny!

And maybe Litespeed will warranty that situation. Their video does not state they will warranty such a situation; but you might check with them.

We do not use trucks in our testing; so I am unsure how our Ti bikes hold up to trucks; or what size truck is required to damage one. But our lifetime warranty is on manufacturing defects only; does not cover truck crushings.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> Now that is funny!
> 
> And maybe Litespeed will warranty that situation. Their video does not state they will warranty such a situation; but you might check with them.
> 
> We do not use trucks in our testing; so I am unsure how our Ti bikes hold up to trucks; or what size truck is required to damage one. But our lifetime warranty is on manufacturing defects only; does not cover truck crushings.


So then what does that have to do wth the thread that now moved into a direction of wanting disclosure on your warranty practices?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> So then what does that have to do wth the thread that now moved into a direction of wanting disclosure on your warranty practices?


Our warranty policy is very clear; and is posted.

Now what is not posted is that; even though all bike warranties do not cover labor on replacement of defective parts or frames, I have not charged that in the last 30 years.

So if someone is riding a Fantom Team Ti 29er for say 10 years and the frame fails due to a manufacturing defect; they will get a new frame. And very likely the labor will be done for free; eventhough excluded in the warranty statement.

Of course, what do you think the chance is this Ti frame will have a manufacturing defect that does not show up for 10 years? My guess is; we will never see a defect in any Ti framed bike we sell. But if we do; we will gladly fix it or replace it. Simple.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Clutchman83 said:


> Oh, gag me please.
> 
> I don't have a problem with BD for the most part, other than Mikes overzealous defense of his company...but this statement is just downright ridiculous.


I'd like to see Gary Fisher get off his fancy sailboat and defend his company and all the broken frames he's designed. I think it's great how Mike stands in against some of the insults thrown at his company. I'd love to ask Trek what the percentage content of their bikes are made in the USA. In the early 80's the 520 frame was built in Taiwan, just the chain/seat stays and bridges were brazed in WI. Even the fork was 100% Taiwan. Trek labeled that frame "Made in USA". I don't expect anything has changed in the last 25 years.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Our warranty policy is very clear; and is posted.
> 
> Now what is not posted is that; even though all bike warranties do not cover labor on replacement of defective parts or frames, I have not charged that in the last 30 years.
> 
> ...


You would have done Harriet Tubman proud!  ...zarr


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Zarr, 

What plane of reality do you reside in? It seems like you're not from our plane from your postings all over the forums. A few months ago you were a n00b, now you go on about the good old days and how things were in 1997, and even give people lessons about mtb that are not even based in reality.

Hell, I even post about Germany in passion with our post-ride eats and you give me a lesson about cookware. You have even sent religious PM's in the past. Many of your posts have nothing to even do with the threads at hand.

You are really out there.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> Zarr,
> 
> What plane of reality do you reside in? It seems like you're not from our plane from your postings all over the forums. A few months ago you were a n00b, now you go on about the good old days and how things were in 1997, and even give people lessons about mtb that are not even based in reality.
> 
> ...


----------------------------------------


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Why did we need an almost identical thread to get started on the weight weenie forum? Could the moderators not lock one and confine the spam, fanboys, and so forth to one spot ?


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

*You totaly avoided my question----AGAIN*



bikesdirect said:


> _ "im looking for a xc style frame for around $500 and air shock.
> 
> can you guys recommend and good frame for around $500? im only 14 so i wont be able to buy a $1000 frame."_
> 
> ...


My question is "Why do you resort to selling your products on a public discussion forum".

This is not a selling venue for manufacturers/distributors.(Except for you)


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> I'd like to see Gary Fisher get off his fancy sailboat and defend his company and all the broken frames he's designed. I think it's great how Mike stands in against some of the insults thrown at his company. I'd love to ask Trek


I see you'd rather jump on Mike's leaky rowboat and are now shilling for him in a public discussion forum! Are you still going to paint over his decals or did you also score a "sponsorship" plan this time around? Bravo, bikesdirect bootlicker!

For the record none of My Gary Fisher or Trek products ever suffered frame failures(nine products so far). And I am quite a tall dude weighing in at 220lbs. You'd think by now I'd have broken something? Of course when you're selling over a QUARTER MILLION bikes annually there's bound to be a few hundred people whining about their broken frames on mtbr. Does Bikesdirect sell a quarter million units annually? Since we don't know his annual sales we can't compare defect rates now can we? Until Mike posts actual figures we'll take it as slandering his competition, total weasel move.

It's funny how Mike puts down the better business bureau (who has rated him terrible) because they SUPPOSEDLY do not take annual sales into account. And yet Trek which is a far larger entity with many more sales rates better!

http://wisconsin.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=28&bbb=0694&firm=5001740

Mikes performance:

http://houston.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=148&bbb=0915&firm=30000690
http://www.jacksonville.bbb.org/commonreport.html?compid=160108855#CustExp
http://houston.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=148&bbb=0915&firm=13002679

Now Mike is shilling his $2000 Ti bike. Looks nice but who wants to deal with such a sleazy company? And besides that Gary Fisher Superfly is way lighter and STRONGER for only $1000 more. That's the screamingest deal in carbon fiber right now and yes the frame comes with an ACTUAL warranty. As opposed to Mike's ridiculous boilerplate. Oddly enough GF charges LESS than Mike does for their frame replacement should you break it yourself.

Ti is a notoriously difficult material to get penetration on. Now maybe Mike does indeed source an awesome titanium frame. But with all these questionable behaviors how can you trust that? Spending $2000 at bikesdirect is like throwing your money into the garbage can. No resale, no service, no warranty on carbon fiber! In contrast the Superfly will sell for a good percentage of new since it was in so much demand this year.

Like they say you can have strong, light and inexpensive... choose two. I know which ones bikesdirect has chosen. Oh sure, their Ti 29er might be light. But will it be as bulletproof as a Superfly? I'm not holding my breath.

Remember our resident expert Pursuiter actually believes that "real riders" need to replace the OEM wheelset anyways after their first couple of rides warp the rim to worthless. That my be true for the cheese Mike puts on his bicycles to shave cost (light, cheap). But certainly not true for the Superfly. The wheelset cost alone makes up the difference in MSRPs. And you won't need to throw the Superfly's rims in the garbage after two rides!

Consider Gary Fisher's carbon fiber frameset and REAL warranty a bonus! For the same money as Mike's Bikes after you're done replacing the junk.


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## airs0ft3r (Sep 2, 2007)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> My question is "Why do you resort to selling your products on a public discussion forum".
> 
> This is not a selling venue for manufacturers/distributors.(Except for you)


I can't answer this for him, but I can for myself. I am glad Mike is here on the forums. I've asked him numerous questions about bikes I don't plan to buy anytime within the next 5 years, and I've always gotten positive responses. I know other companies have representatives here on the forums; it just adds another level of personal touch.

He's a good guy. PM him a question and he'll probably get back to you within 1 day.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> My question is "Why do you resort to selling your products on a public discussion forum".
> 
> This is not a selling venue for manufacturers/distributors.(Except for you)


Because it is a loaded question, like asking why you feel the need the molest children. You have to concede some things to even answer it that you don't feel are true.

Your question assumes that he is not doing just fine without this site ("resort to" implies that other means have not worked), and that he is selling anything on the site, which he is not. He is answering questions and responding to criticism.


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## snobrder5 (Apr 16, 2006)

you know i used to rock a moto fantom comp ds frame on my bike, and i flogged the crap out of it for a little over a year.....never had a problem....i pushed motobecane to everyone i knew that rode, and they got at least 5 other sales cause i talked them up so much....

i've met mike in person and we've talked about bikes and designs and other stuff, and he's a stand-up guy.....but being that if/when it comes to a warranty issue, you're not dealing directly with mike, but someone else in their office....after hearing enough warranty horror stories, i decided to ride a different frame....it's like what good is a quality frame (and their upper end stuff really is built with surprising quality), when the company backing it may or may not stand behind it in the event of a warranty issue....at least with santa cruz, their crash replacement deal is good for a lifetime to any owner, and it really is a deal....

also, just to point out that the quality really is there in a way.......look at the Transition Covert....that bike uses the SAME chainstay/dropout/derailleur hanger/main pivot/rear pivot as the Fantom DS series of bikes......if that part (and prob the same manufacturing company) is good enough for transition, it's good enough for motobecane, and good enough for me......however, i'd buy transition first, cause i know they actually stand behind their product....


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

kapusta said:


> He is answering questions and responding to criticism.


And selling, selling, selling!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

DeeEight said:


> Why did we need an almost identical thread to get started on the weight weenie forum? Could the moderators not lock one and confine the spam, fanboys, and so forth to one spot ?


I started this thread to try to gain information to help poor people.Is that too hard to understand? And I don't want it shut down.All these people launching these verbal assaults on each other about this that and the third,why don't you show some originality and start your own thread? If you are sincerely discussing and debating something related to the thread's original intent, talk on.But don't get on here and throw the beef on just to vent your own anger.Chill baby, chill !:eekster:


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Our warranty policy is very clear; and is posted.
> 
> Now what is not posted is that; even though all bike warranties do not cover labor on replacement of defective parts or frames, I have not charged that in the last 30 years.
> 
> ...


Try to keep your warranty policies strong.I be sending folks to you.---zarr :thumbsup:


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## ash240 (Jun 2, 2007)

zarr said:


> Try to keep your warranty policies strong.I be sending folks to you.---zarr :thumbsup:


No one you like I hope  I wouldn't ever deal with any retailer who was selling any product they are not supporting. It's quite dishonest and other than price (for products that are often old tech and quite possibly second grade or worse). the fact he is unable to answer any hard questions about his behaviour yet continues to post spin on here shows who you are dealing with. You would have to be blind not to see the facts here 
This type of retailer is the worst. No real knowledge, sells ANY product and will do anything to push it.

Let's be sure we are all thinking this through. We KNOW they do not support something they sell, we KNOW of mutiple failures, that they do not even INSPECT the faulty products (who knows, maybe there is a massive design flaw?) and mutiple other serious issues. Do you want to be riding a product from a retailer who clearly has no interest other than making money? It's quite easy to be seriously hurt if your bike fails, it's quite easy to be killed or end up in a wheelchair. Should you trust a product from a retailer that has shown they do not care even to inspect a failed product? I have NEVER seen ANYONE ignore issues with one product yet care about issues with others. If this is the attitude towards CF then you can bet a similar attitude is had towards everything. 
Is your cheap alloy frame defective? Made from faulty batches of tubing? 
Don't be fooled by "it's the same part as", IS it? Same grade? Not a batch that failed testing? You don't know, you can't trust the retailer to be honest and you want to put your life on a frame from them?


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

zarr said:


> Try to keep your warranty policies strong.I be sending folks to you.---zarr :thumbsup:


This thread=


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## ash240 (Jun 2, 2007)

"Seems some shoppers think that a very important feature on a CF Road bike is a long defect warranty. There are other cyclists that think defects are rare and would prefer a low cost on fault CF frame replacement policy. "

More dishonest spin  It's all about your behaviour as a retailer and trust. 
Clearly, you cannot be trusted. You do not support products you sell. You do not even inspect them to see if they are faulty but EXPECT the customer to pay, no matter what.
Should a customer risk buy from you KNOWING you cannot be trusted? 
Is saving XX worth the risk KNOWING you are quite likely to do the wrong thing by the customer? No one who has been screwed over would think it's worth "saving" up front yet having to spend more in a short period of time.

"Enough like Moto Immortals that we run out before we can get more. "

Which means NOTHING. You could be buying defective products, bad batches which would explain limited stock.

"And then there is the question of how much a 23 lb HT 29er should cost with all top end stuff."

I would expect a product from a retailer who has poor/no warrenty support and low overheads to be much cheaper initially BUT is this a long term saving? IF they are one of the people who get screwed over, how much did they save? Are they getting a decent product or one that looks ok but is second rate? They clearly cannot trust anything the retailer says about product quality. Lets be clear about this, IF you were selling the same grade product as other bigger retailer they WOULD offer a lower price. That companies with MUCH larger sales figures cannot do this is worth thinking about. The buy price they have would be much lower due to higher volumes. Let's not be fooled by the spin going on here 

"And then there is the question of warranty. Maybe it would be nice if they are both lifetime against defects. {of course, on the CF version the maker might say something like _If the force of an impact is absorbed by your carbon frame; you should buy a new one; even if the old one looks OK_} "

More spin and deflection from the REAL issues.

"I also like choices in SS/FG, CX, HT, hybrid, cruiser, touring, commuting and really all types of bikes. I can not think of one catagory where only one flavor is needed."

Me either BUT I can see no need for a retailer who is dishonest and acts in a suspect manner to make a sale. There are ample QUALITY choices from decent retailers, guys who deserve to be given money and supported, who treat the customer with respect.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

ash240 said:


> No one you like I hope  I wouldn't ever deal with any retailer who was selling any product they are not supporting. It's quite dishonest and other than price (for products that are often old tech and quite possibly second grade or worse). the fact he is unable to answer any hard questions about his behaviour yet continues to post spin on here shows who you are dealing with. You would have to be blind not to see the facts here
> This type of retailer is the worst. No real knowledge, sells ANY product and will do anything to push it.
> 
> Let's be sure we are all thinking this through. We KNOW they do not support something they sell, we KNOW of mutiple failures, that they do not even INSPECT the faulty products (who knows, maybe there is a massive design flaw?) and mutiple other serious issues. Do you want to be riding a product from a retailer who clearly has no interest other than making money? It's quite easy to be seriously hurt if your bike fails, it's quite easy to be killed or end up in a wheelchair. Should you trust a product from a retailer that has shown they do not care even to inspect a failed product? I have NEVER seen ANYONE ignore issues with one product yet care about issues with others. If this is the attitude towards CF then you can bet a similar attitude is had towards everything.
> ...


I do not think ANY readers would be fooled by posts such as yours or use them as a sourse of information.

New member; makes statements that can not be backed up; jumps to conclusions; has no proven knowledge of the industry; knocks the USA and our laws and customs; and makes no attempt to be fair in the analysis of anything.

But at least the posts are good for a laugh


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

ash240 said:


> No one you like I hope  I wouldn't ever deal with any retailer who was selling any product they are not supporting. It's quite dishonest and other than price (for products that are often old tech and quite possibly second grade or worse). the fact he is unable to answer any hard questions about his behaviour yet continues to post spin on here shows who you are dealing with. You would have to be blind not to see the facts here
> This type of retailer is the worst. No real knowledge, sells ANY product and will do anything to push it.
> 
> Let's be sure we are all thinking this through. We KNOW they do not support something they sell, we KNOW of mutiple failures, that they do not even INSPECT the faulty products (who knows, maybe there is a massive design flaw?) and mutiple other serious issues. Do you want to be riding a product from a retailer who clearly has no interest other than making money? It's quite easy to be seriously hurt if your bike fails, it's quite easy to be killed or end up in a wheelchair. Should you trust a product from a retailer that has shown they do not care even to inspect a failed product? I have NEVER seen ANYONE ignore issues with one product yet care about issues with others. If this is the attitude towards CF then you can bet a similar attitude is had towards everything.
> ...


Mike, I said before that the continuation of this thread could only make you look bad. Now I'm not so sure. Posts like this may actually help you.

One of my issues with your site is that you don't give the customer much credit for being savy or discriminating (though in many cases you are probably right). It is one of the main reasons (IMO) that there is some negative reaction to BD on a site like this. However, posts like this (as well as many others by other people) take that to a whole new level, and take the spotlight off of you.


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## axcxnj (Jun 23, 2008)

personally, after reading this whole thread, i still dont have a problem with BD or Motobecane. actually, i think my next purchase is going to be a fantom cross CX bike. 

i really dont think there are any hidden catches or agendas with BD, he seems to be very open and straight fowards about policies. and if you dont like it, shop elsewhere. its as easy as that


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

zarr said:


> I started this thread to try to gain information to help poor people.Is that too hard to understand? And I don't want it shut down.All these people launching these verbal assaults on each other about this that and the third,why don't you show some originality and start your own thread? If you are sincerely discussing and debating something related to the thread's original intent, talk on.But don't get on here and throw the beef on just to vent your own anger.Chill baby, chill !:eekster:


This thread has been answering the question you were asking, and continues to do so, albeit with a few distractions, but nothing out of the ordinary for a thread on this site.


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## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

Also, when you start a thread like this, you have to expect this is going to be the outcome.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

zarr said:


> I started this thread to try to gain information to help poor people.Is that too hard to understand? ...Chill baby, chill !:eekster:


This is choice, zarr has over 800 post here and acts surprised the thread got nasty, LOL. The title is raw meat for all the waxers that hang out here.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

pursuiter said:


> This is choice, zarr has over 800 post here and acts surprised the thread got nasty, LOL. The title is raw meat for all the waxers that hang out here.


What's a "waxer"?


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## Jake Pay (Dec 27, 2006)

zarr,

I noticed yesterday whenever this thread starts to slip down the General Discussion menu page you will bump it with nonsense like I quoted below..


zarr said:


> Try to keep your warranty policies strong.I be sending folks to you.---zarr :thumbsup:


Smells like


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

*The Rules Are*

Manufacturer/Retailer Posting Guidelines:

All Manufacturers / Vendors / Shop Owners / Sponsored Riders should declare their status as a Retailer / Manufacturer in their signature

Online selling of parts, components or bikes will be accompanied by a paid ad and properly labeled as "Ad" with a link to the paid classified ad or mtbr sponsorship.

Any one reviewing or testing products and / or components online must state whether they have a vested interest in the product up front. They should state whether they bought the product or they got the product free or with an industry deal or are prohibited from saying negative things about a product.

All links in a signature for articles for sale should be removed before posting. No "under the signature" shilling or free advertising allowed.

However, if you own or work for a bike shop, you MAY put a link to your shops website main page to show your affiliation.(this bullit point updated by gregg 6/7/07)

Manufacturers and Industry folks are encouraged to respond to any questions directed about their product. This is the perfect opportunity to inform and 'set the record straight.'

Bottom line: Participate and post content in mtbr. Don't use mtbr to get free money for your business. Sponsoring mtbr assures our survival and is very affordable. Contact [email protected] and [email protected] for more info. 
Sincerely,

Francis Cebedo, Founder
Gregg Kato, Site Manager


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

kapusta said:


> This thread has been answering the question you were asking, and continues to do so, albeit with a few distractions, but nothing out of the ordinary for a thread on this site.


I know that.I just hope it doesn't get shut down.Many good replies here.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Manufacturer/Retailer Posting Guidelines:
> 
> All Manufacturers / Vendors / Shop Owners / Sponsored Riders should declare their status as a Retailer / Manufacturer in their signature
> 
> ...


So, as far as I can tell, Mike is following these guidlines.

EDIT: WHile he does not explicitely say he OWNS bikesdirect it is in his sig, it is his screen name, and nobody has any doubt that he represents it, and he is very upfront about that. It is pretty consistent with what other businesses with a presence here do.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

pursuiter said:


> This is choice, zarr has over 800 post here and acts surprised the thread got nasty, LOL. The title is raw meat for all the waxers that hang out here.


It's also raw meat for me to ask them a few questions.Like,"Can you tell us where people with not a lot of money can get a good bike". Later for all the ying-yang. HELP SOMEBODY. :thumbsup:


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

kapusta said:


> So, as far as I can tell, Mike is following these guidlines.
> 
> EDIT: WHile he does not explicitely say he OWNS bikesdirect it is in his sig, it is his screen name, and nobody has any doubt that he represents it, and he is very upfront about that. It is pretty consistent with what other businesses with a presence here do.


Sorry but in fairness... just look at his thread in the 29er board, and tell me thats not free advertising/spam.
Its not even well disguised. 
I dont think mike is too mindful of the rules sometimes - if you read that thread, you'll see he was warned as much (his post was even moderated to remove the advertising element - and not by mike)
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=441399

I dont agree with him on alot of things, and he has embaressed himself and his company in this thead - not only with his willingness to reply to junk posters, but with the poor judgement/knowledge that he has also shown here. 
And the 29er question was so clearly a "free advert" that its unreal.

At the end of the day, if you want people to respect you, you have to behave in a manner that warrents it.
He doesnt.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> Sorry but in fairness... just look at his thread in the 29er board, and tell me thats not free advertising/spam.
> Its not even well disguised.
> I dont think mike is too mindful of the rules sometimes - if you read that thread, you'll see he was warned as much.
> 
> ...


Don't worry so much about other people say.I need your help.Can you tell me where people with limited incomes can get a really good bike?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

zarr said:


> It's also raw meat for me to ask them a few questions.Like,"Can you tell us where people with not a lot of money can get a good bike".


That is a very different question, and you would get a very different response.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

zarr said:


> Don't worry so much about other people say.I need your help.Can you tell me where people with limited incomes can get a really good bike?


Simple - they can save up like most everyone else has to (perhaps just for a little longer).
Or they can go secondhand.

Or finally - they can buy a cheaper bike and accept that its not going to be quite the same experience (trail and off) as a better bike would have been.

The phrase "You get what you pay for" applies much more often than most people like to accept.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

People with limited incomes do not buy $2000 bikes. They go to walmart and spend $100 on a bike.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

DeeEight said:


> People with limited incomes do not buy $2000 bikes. They go to walmart and spend $100 on a bike.


False information.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

zarr said:


> False information.


That all depends how you define limited income


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> That all depends how you define limited income


One of my things is trying to find the best low priced bikes to help kids and adults get out on the trails.You need to know a little bit about my history to know why. Let's just say, "a little kindness goes a long way.  " I like to help people. So do a whole lot of others on this website.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

kapusta said:


> So, as far as I can tell, Mike is following these guidlines.


Obviously, you and I interpret these words differently.

What's important, is how Cebedo and Kato interpret them. If they agree with you, I think we should ask all of the Sponsors (especially the Ibex guys---being a somewhat close competitor) to begin the same level of selling on the MTBR forums. Let's even ask outside retailers to come with their advertisements (cleverly disguised as comments or questions). Then we might have an even playing field. Fair is fair.

I will welcome and support the return of the Ibex marketing. Ibex bikes are probably better anyway. In fact, the next time I'm in California, I will contact *dogonfr* and see if we can hook up so I can get a closer look at Ibex.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Obviously, you and I interpret these words differently.
> 
> What's important, is how Cebedo and Kato interpret them. If they agree with you, I think we should ask all of the Sponsors (especially the Ibex guys---being a somewhat close competitor) to begin the same level of selling on the MTBR forums. Let's even ask outside retailers to come with their advertisements (cleverly disguised as comments or questions). Then we might have an even playing field. Fair is fair.
> 
> I will welcome and support the return of the Ibex marketing. Ibex bikes are probably better anyway. In fact, the next time I'm in California, I will contact *dogonfr* and see if we can hook up so I can get a closer look at Ibex.


I agree that people interpret those rules differently..

This thread ISNT about Motobecane vs Ibex - and it wouldnt be fair to say that Mike does more marketing/recommending for Motobecane than certain people (paid or unpaid) do for Ibex... That said, there are fans and haters of both brands.

But thats a digression - its not what the thread is about, please god dont go down that line - its not neccessary.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Obviously, you and I interpret these words differently.
> 
> What's important, is how Cebedo and Kato interpret them. If they agree with you, I think we should ask all of the Sponsors (especially the Ibex guys---being a somewhat close competitor) to begin the same level of selling on the MTBR forums. Let's even ask outside retailers to come with their advertisements (cleverly disguised as comments or questions). Then we might have an even playing field. Fair is fair.
> 
> I will welcome and support the return of the Ibex marketing. Ibex bikes are probably better anyway. In fact, the next time I'm in California, I will contact *dogonfr* and see if we can hook up so I can get a closer look at Ibex.


Thread's getting more interesting.


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

zarr said:


> Don't worry so much about other people say.I need your help.Can you tell me where people with limited incomes can get a really good bike?


People with limited incomes do not tend to drive to their nearest trail to ride a $800 bike. Especially not with $4/gal gasoline. They also probably do not have enough available credit on their cards to charge a $2000 Ti bike over the internet.

If you're poor and have half a brain cell there are plenty of ways to go mountain biking for way less money than a second rate online bike. Like buying used. You do realize the majority of MTBs are bought and then become garage furniture right? If money was tight I'd rather have a $2000 Specialized for my $800 than one of Mike's no-name coil shock wonders with the Walmart design frame.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Deme Moore said:


> People with limited incomes do not tend to drive to their nearest trail to ride a $800 bike. Especially not with $4/gal gasoline. They also probably do not have enough available credit on their cards to charge a $2000 Ti bike over the internet.
> 
> If you're poor and have half a brain cell there are plenty of ways to go mountain biking for way less money than a second rate online bike. Like buying used. You do realize the majority of MTBs are bought and then become garage furniture right? If money was tight I'd rather have a $2000 Specialized for my $800 than one of Mike's no-name coil shock wonders with the Walmart design frame.


You make some good points.Buying used bikes scares me though.The frames mainly.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

EnglishT said:


> I agree that people interpret those rules differently..
> 
> This thread ISNT about Motobecane vs Ibex - and it wouldnt be fair to say that Mike does more marketing/recommending for Motobecane than certain people (paid or unpaid) do for Ibex... That said, there are fans and haters of both brands.
> 
> But thats a digression - its not what the thread is about, please god dont go down that line - its not neccessary.


The amount of reading that I do on MTBR shows that Mike *does* perform much more selling than anyone else. I think that contributes to Motobecane's bad rap.

No, this thread isn't about Motobecane vs Ibex. I'm not a fan or a hater of either, but a more active Ibex would give more choices to zarr's target group. We need more Woodstocks too.


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

*Stay away from Outcast 29er. Bad taste after Second Bike.*



bikesdirect said:


> Here is the problem; the word 'defect'
> ...snip.....
> 
> We have no issue with replacing defects; which are so rare in our industry that no thoughtful seller has a problem with it.
> ...


Mike,

Hate to gang up on you, but I am a BD customer with 2 bikes and was pretty unsatisfied with a warranty inquiry on #2.

I bought a Outcast 29er singlespeed for $399. Granted, good deal, but a cheap bike. The rear axle was bent after an easy first ride. Probably bent from the factory or shipping. Replaced it with a higher quality stainless steel axle and repacked the bearings since sending the wheel in for warranty would cost more than the new axle. After about 400 miles, the bearing races were galling, causing tight/loose spots and the hub had too much runout to properly adjust the chain tension. Bottom line is that my warranty was void because I replaced the axle.

After protesting, I was offered a new wheel at cost ($45 + shipping). I decided that I didn't want the same low quality hub again and bought a really nice DMR Revolver hub for the same price instead. Now the front hub is starting to get rough........

Maybe a $400 bike isn't really made to be really ridden. I've maintained this bike properly and these are either manufacturing defects or just cheap no name hubs that are never meant to be taken off-road. I say manufacturing flaws that have nothing to do with replacing an axle with a non-original part.

My Century Team road bike for $1400 is still a great bike (with a few minor issues), but I wouldn't recommend the Outcast 29er to anybody who is going to really ride it. BTW, bought a Cannondale F29 1FG and it's easily worth 3X what the Outcast cost.

-Chuck


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## VTSasquatch (May 14, 2008)

The Same Reason Women Carry Louis Vuitton Bags. People Like To Buy Expensive **** So They Can Look Down Their Noses At Other People. One-upsmanship In Common With Cyclist. A Lot Of Bikers Act Like B!TCHES. Don't Worry About, Just Do Your Thing!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

The Motobecane Fantom29 Pro is still the best bargain in low priced 29ers. Nothing can touch it.  ?


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

VTSasquatch said:


> The Same Reason Women Carry Louis Vuitton Bags. People Like To Buy Expensive **** So They Can Look Down Their Noses At Other People. One-upsmanship In Common With Cyclist. A Lot Of Bikers Act Like B!TCHES. Don't Worry About, Just Do Your Thing!


There's plenty of people who like to buy cheap so they can imagine that other folks making more money than them are stuck up Ivy League brats. Then they try to chase down riders on the "big name brands" so they can lecture on how their discount bike is just as good but for way less money and my aren't you an idiot for paying one penny more! LOL.

The dude complaining about his Motobecane Outcast summed it up pretty nicely... by the time you're done replacing all the cheesy parts that Mike has hidden on his build (like hubs or stiff aluminum frames on a rigid singlespeed) you're already out more money than if you just got a better bike straight from the OEM. Not to mention dealing with the warranty hassles and paying to ship large items back-n-forth.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Deme Moore said:


> There's plenty of people who like to buy cheap so they can imagine that other folks making more money than them are stuck up Ivy League brats. Then they try to chase down riders on the "big name brands" so they can lecture on how their discount bike is just as good but for way less money and my aren't you an idiot for paying one penny more! LOL.
> 
> The dude complaining about his Motobecane Outcast summed it up pretty nicely... by the time you're done replacing all the cheesy parts that Mike has hidden on his build (like hubs or stiff aluminum frames on a rigid singlespeed) you're already out more money than if you just got a better bike straight from the OEM. Not to mention dealing with the warranty hassles and paying to ship large items back-n-forth.


Oh Yea
all those Shimano, Mavic, Formula, Gravity, Ritchey, and Vuelta hubs we use are junk LOL

You are funny; I like that


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

I have never had a successful run with Formula hubs. Most everyone knows they're junk, and even Formula Brake said at one time they were sick of getting calls from shops and customers about Formula HUBS and had to point out they weren't the same company.

Again FORMULA BRAKE IS NOT THE SAME COMPANY AS FORMULA HUBS.

And I've not had a good bout with Vuelta, even when I worked in a shop. No one could track anyone down for CS support.

Every formula hub I've had has seized. A few years ago I had to deal with C'dale on a rear that seized, breaking the chain, because it wouldn't freewheel, and became unrideable.

Shimano: Walmart bikes have "Shimano Equipped" stickers on them. I have a 88€ commuter from the local home depot type store with Shimano.

Mavic: Depends on what level. They have good, bad, average.

Ritchey: Good, bad, and average. WHen they make good stuff, it's fine, when they make bad stuff, it's like Russian engineering. Some impressive stuff, then some impressive failures. On top of that, Ritchey does the catalog thing on most of his parts.


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

Vuelta is crap. So is your Outcast 29er. One of the guys I ride with bought one on a lark and his negative review is right here on MTBR for all to see. The frame was fine. Everything attached to it wasn't up to trail riding... sorry.

Instead of rebadging the same Taiwan bike as KHS for the same money you could look into offering a nice steel frame with actual offroad gearing and wheels made of something other than soft cheese. Oh yeah, discs would be nice too. For the same money as an Outcast I can have a Redline Monocog with steel frame, warranty and local service. THAT my dear Mikey is a better deal... more bike for the buck!

It's not like you're having to give the LBS a cut, so where is that 40% margin going... oh yeah into your pocket! Dude your story about discounting bikes is pure crap. You're just pocketing the difference by eliminating the middleman. And the service!


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Dummy Whore, Gary Fisher shill, scratches out his 15th post in this thread with a dull crayon:



Deme Moore said:


> Vuelta is crap. So is your Outcast 29er....blah, blah, blah... And the service!


Hey DM, try making a new point, will ya? You know how come we're sure you never ride.....yer GF ain't broke yet 

Do you live in your Mom's spare bed room with all the sewing stuff?


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> Dummy Whore, Gary Fisher shill, scratches out his 15th post in this thread with a dull crayon:
> 
> Hey DM, try making a new point, will ya? You know how come we're sure you never ride.....yer GF ain't broke yet
> 
> Do you live in your Mom's spare bed room with all the sewing stuff?


pursuiter:
Didn't you say you had kids? You certainly don't sound mature enough.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

zarr said:


> The Motobecane Fantom29 Pro is still the best bargain in low priced 29ers. Nothing can touch it.  ?


Sorry zarr, I have to answer no to this one. My Zion is a better bargain.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Deme Moore said:


> It's not like you're having to give the LBS a cut, so where is that 40% margin going... oh yeah into your pocket! Dude your story about discounting bikes is pure crap.


You continue to be a source of amusement. In fact, you are funny by the day.

Our site has about 100 bikes that are priced at about half what a local dealer would charge. Anyone who knoiws how to read specs can see that.

And wait till the 2009 pricing completely kicks in: our prices will look even better.

Of course, I say if you can find an XTR level 20 lb XC race bike at your dealer; go for it. On the other hand, if your LBS is $4000 for a bike that you can get online for $2000 ~~ you might want to consider shopping online.

Our shoppers know how to read specs

BTW the way; what would a bike like this cost in you LBS for 2009? Full CF, Ritchey PRO cockpit, Ritchey saddle & tires, FSA CF Team crank, Cane Creek Brakes, Ultegra SL, Mavic Wheels; etc {from the price lists I have seen - at least $1000 more in an LBS} $1000 is a lot of money to a lot of people.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> You continue to be a source of amusement. In fact, you are funny by the day.
> 
> Of course, I say if you can find an XTR level 20 lb XC race bike at your dealer; go for it. On the other hand, if your LBS is $4000 for a bike that you can get online for $2000 ~~ you might want to consider shopping online.


Mike, not cool on making personal jabs at consumers. I think thought a bit "terse", some points are valid and shouldn't be met with amusement or sarcasm.

The second portion of what I quoted mentions you saying "XTR Level". What exactly is contained within one of your "XTR Level" bikes that's at that level?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> The second portion of what I quoted mentions you saying "XTR Level". What exactly is contained within one of your "XTR Level" bikes that's at that level?


Good question:

If a bike has XTR shifters and Der; and it uses AVIDs top brake, and FSA's top crank, and Ritchey's top cockpit, top level of brand name fork,and a major brand name of wheels ar top level -- then I would call it XTR Level bike.

The 19.5 lb Motobecane FLY TEAM Ti is a good example. Hard to find anything on the bike that can be improved. Very hard to find a lighter XC race bike.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Cassette?

I noted you said "major brand of wheels", instead of "top level".


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> Cassette?
> 
> I noted you said "major brand of wheels", instead of "top level".


I do not think that much about cassette, saddle, tires, grips, and chain of top level bikes. All that we spec are very good or top level. But these are items many buyers change.

Major brands of wheels include Shimano, Mavic, Vuelta, Ritchey, and so on. At XTR level we use the top level on our top level bikes. Then drop down a level on next bike down. But if the top wheel is an unpopular alternative {like a CF wheel or a SewUp} we may use something right below that.

And I like it when buyers compare spec to spec - for a direct comparison. That is a great way to do it.

I like the Fisher Superfly compared directly to the Moto Fly Team 29er. Very different; but easy to compare. Both top end; both 23 lbs; both exotic frames; both list for $4000; both easily considered at the top of available 29 hardtails {even though components & frames are different}

I love the choice available here; as it is very clear:


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> pursuiter:
> Didn't you say you had kids? You certainly don't sound mature enough.


My kids are quite lucky. I'm raising them correctly so they don't end up empty fashionista metro-sexuals like some of the posers that hang out here


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> I do not think that much about cassette, saddle, tires, grips, and chain of top level bikes. All that we spec are very good or top level. But these are items many buyers change.
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


Again, alot of spin and alot of half truths - and more attempts at free advertising.

Firstly - Saddles, grips, tires, pedals - these are the things that people will change, IF they dont like the ones that come on the bike, its not an excuse to spec poor ones "because they'll change anyway" because not everyone will want to or should have to.

And for what its worth, I know very few people that will buy a new bike and change the cassette/chain - they'll normally run them till they die and then replace them, I know you're trying to be clever and make an excuse for saving money, but in the case of drivetrain parts, its clearly a bullcrap excuse (minority of bikers want a road cassette as stock, something you have been noted for doing to be able to advertise a lower weight).

Secondly, spec for spec comparisons might give an idea of value - they wont give a huge indication of how the thing will ride, since most of that is down to frame quality/material/design - something which you claim is of comparable quality/design (note claim means "statement passed as fact"), since 99% of people can't test ride or even sit on them to see how the whole set up feels, its not hard to say that 99% of buyers are buying (almost) blind when it comes to the most important part.

Finally, noone sells your bikes at your phoney "list price" its something you made up to make the customer feel like theyre getting a better deal than they really might be.
If you think your product is good value - fine, that should be obvious and they'll sell themselves - there should be no need for deceptive trading by throwing out figures that noone ever used, set at which price you would have bikes from more reputable manufacturers and dealers.

And please, stop using this site for free advertising, you've used similar posts comparing your bike to the superfly several times - you were even warned/edited by moderators for spamming last time.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> ... - and more attempts at free advertising.....


LOL, you guys keep bumping this thread with the same points, over and over, running on and on, with no end in sight, nothing new, same old post, all mad at mike, running on and on, without any end, free adverts, really mad, i like my GF, my bike's better than yours.....


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Not to mention that if someone buys a superfly from a fisher dealer, and then the frame cracks... fisher won't even ask you what you were doing at the time... their standard procedure is have the dealer take digital photos of the frame failure, email those to the head office in wisconsin, then if they decide to replace the frame, they'll send out the new one NO CHARGE to the dealer you brought the bike/frame to, and it doesn't even have to be the one you bought it from. It might take a couple months (my wahoo frame that was right at the edge of its warranty period was replaced in about 2 1/2 months with a brand new 2009 frame) to do it, but I didn't have to pay anything to do it. And that sort of level of customer service IS the difference that 99% of bicycle buyers WANT when buying bicycles, and its why NO online dealer will ever be able to compete with an established brand in anything other than the initial price tag. But fat lot of good that'll be if the frame cracks four or five years later and the dealer may or may not be around anymore, or the brand may have failed.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

pursuiter said:


> LOL, you guys keep bumping this thread with the same points, over and over, running on and on, with no end in sight, nothing new, same old post, all mad at mike, running on and on, without any end, free adverts, really mad, i like my GF, my bike's better than yours.....


If someone says something that needs rebutting, there is no reason not to - thats why its caled a "_discussion_" forum.
If you dont like discussion, I would advise you to go back reading pages written by reporters.

I can see you're obviously very fond of mike and BD, and theres nothing wrong with that. Yet hypocrisy isnt called for - mike has made the same points over and over here, and they have been rebutted over and over.

Free adverts - yes, you only have to read the thread in the 29er board where his post had to be edited by a moderator, because it was so clearly a thinly veiled free advert. 
Thats against the rules of the forum and he was warned about it recently.

I dont ride GF, they're not bad bikes - when I'm in the market, I'll try one, but that doesnt mean I'll end up buying one.

I'm sorry buddy but if you want to appear credible, you'll have to either stop throwing the toys out of the pram, or find some credible arguments to use - because right now, you just look like an immature fool.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> If someone ...blah..blah..blah...because right now, you just look like an immature fool.


LOL, you guys are word breeder reactors. Every post runs on and on with nothing new, same old points. You are being played and can't figure it out.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

There's no reason for anyone, especially a customer, to filibuster a consumer group, especially when the company head is here and eager to tell his side of the story. I ask questions, Mike answers them, simply put. He doesn't need anyone, whether a fan or detractor to speak for him.

We're presented a unique opportunity to see how companies work.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> There's no reason for anyone, especially a customer, to filibuster a consumer group, ....


Look, there's 4-5 members that account for most of the last 150 posts. And you think I'm filibustering this thread. Too funny. The same old points have been recycled endlessly, I'm just responding to all to stupid complaints about free adverts. Walk away and the thread will die.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

pursuiter said:


> The same old points have been recycled endlessly, I'm just responding to all to stupid complaints about free adverts.


If your question isnt answered adequately or truthfully - ask it again.

Youre responding to "stupid" complains - meaning that you dont like it that someone is questioning mikes behaviour?
Sorry - the rules of the forum are clear, free advertising is not allowed - should we just ignore that?
The thread is asking why Motobecane has a "bad rap" on these boards - that seems a valid point to me.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

I'm actually interested in hearing how Mike's business works, and he's answering, so why can't I find out? I don't want the thread to die. I am interested in how his formula works and he's saying it as it is.


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## Wheelspeed (Jan 12, 2006)

*I Don't Think Anyone Answered the OP's Question...*

I see the reason for the OP's post. It DOES seem like Motobecane gets a bad rap. Why?

Lots of people listed why they didn't choose a Motobecane bike, but who cares? An online buyer accepts certain things in order to get what they feel is a better value. For example, they accept not being to take a test ride. They accept not being to look over every part before buying. They accept some hassles in a return if it is ever necessary. They accept having to make their own careful research of the item before buying.

Any one of you who ever bought a used item from Ebay accepted these same things for what you felt was a good value.

As far as free advertising... some of you breed it, as others said in here. Mike's name is Bikesdirect, and his sig says that too, so people can see that his comments are from a supplier and can keep that in mind. It's not a big deal. If he advertises too much, then a mod will warn him. It's not your problem!

I don't care about 29ers, but in the other subforums I read, I haven't seen Bikesdirect post too much, considering he's a supplier and a sponsor. The only time it gets old is when all the whiners start nit-picking and create threads like this with 255 replies about why they like their bike more than some other bike they didn't buy!  :madmax:


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

I manage a big team of engineers. Some of my team members can't be happy unless everyone agrees with them. They can't just make their point and move on. They never let go, always have to make the final statement. In the next meeting they still want to discuss it. It's a personalility defect that needs to be addressed for their future sucess in work and personal life. Otherwise the person is marked by his peers/friends as petty and pedantic, nobody wants to work together with them....


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## VTSasquatch (May 14, 2008)

pursuiter said:


> My kids are quite lucky. I'm raising them correctly so they don't end up empty fashionista metro-sexuals like some of the posers that hang out here


LOL, fashionista metrosexuals! Seriously guys, you sound like a bunch of women comparing shoes. Shut up and ride.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

*Double Pricing Again???*



bikesdirect said:


> You continue to be a source of amusement. In fact, you are funny by the day.
> 
> Our site has about 100 bikes that are priced at about half what a local dealer would charge. Anyone who knoiws how to read specs can see that.
> 
> ...


Mike:

There you go, implying (no, I think you actually said it this time) that local shop prices are double what yours are.

Let's do this to see if this is true or not. You tell me which of your bikes is comparable to my Giant and my Kona and then we can compare prices. I bought both new and from a local shop.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Mike:
> 
> There you go, implying (no, I think you actually said it this time) that local shop prices are double what yours are.
> 
> Let's do this to see if this is true or not. You tell me which of your bikes is comparable to my Giant and my Kona and then we can compare prices. I bought both new and from a local shop.


I have no idea what you Giant and Kona are or what you paid

BUT I do not know that lots of LBS in different areas of the country sell bikes like ours for double what we sell them for. And anyone who knows how to read specs knows that too.

The way to think about this is not to think about the bicycle business; think about distribtion channels. What are the costs of speciality stores, mass merchants, online sellers, and direct delivery providers. Cost struction is very different; thus the selling prices are much different.

Really very simple


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> I'm actually interested in hearing how Mike's business works, and he's answering, so why can't I find out? I don't want the thread to die. I am interested in how his formula works and he's saying it as it is.


Thank you
and I have been very transparate about our business model.

I have posted about all the details on this and other forums.

Not comnplicted; lots of risk, lots of work, lots of time required, and tons of capital. But not rocket sceince; as they say.

There are Many industries where sellers are shortening the distribution channel, reducing its cost, and lowering prices to consumers. Note that many many consumer products can be purchased online.

I buy a lot of stuff online myself and it saves me time, gas, and money. Plus I get a better selection.

I think what some posters do not understand is the limited supply in some areas and the prices that are charged in many areas of the country. If you look at stuff like cyclo cross bikes; many areas no dealer stocks them and the ones you can get to order one start pricing at $1200 or $1500. But there are lots of people who want a CX bike for under $1000 and would like a selection. Online makes sense to them.

So it is all about giving consumers choices
I like choices


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

> Firstly - Saddles, grips, tires, pedals - these are the things that people will change, IF they dont like the ones that come on the bike, its not an excuse to spec poor ones "because they'll change anyway" because not everyone will want to or should have to.


So name a saddle, grip, and pedal that everyone will like, or even a majority will like. You can't, regardless of how good they are. You could spec the bike with anything you want, but unless you happen to use Frog pedals, ODI Ruffian grips, and a WTB Shadow or Stealth saddle, I'm going to replace them. Most experienced riders have preferences these preferences vary widely and it has more to do with fit and comfort than how bling they are. I think this is actually a good place to save on build costs. As a customer, I don't want to be paying for a high end saddle, grips (ARE there high end grips?), and pedals, as I WILL most likely replace them. For this reason, many high end bikes don't even come with pedals.

Tires are somewhat the same in this regard, though there are some that are just better than others, and will satisfy a larger range of preferences than the three above mentioned items.



> (minority of bikers want a road cassette as stock, something you have been noted for doing to be able to advertise a lower weight).


Actually, for xc racing, a road cassette is a legit option. I know people who run them on their DH bikes as well. And Ultegra is not a low end cassette. Granted, it is an XT equivalent, not XTR. 


> Secondly, spec for spec comparisons might give an idea of value - they wont give a huge indication of how the thing will ride, since most of that is down to frame quality/material/design - something which you claim is of comparable quality/design (note claim means "statement passed as fact"), since 99% of people can't test ride or even sit on them to see how the whole set up feels, its not hard to say that 99% of buyers are buying (almost) blind when it comes to the most important part.


This has been true of almost every frame I have bought, and I've had pretty good luck so far. You look at geometry (though this can be tricky with the BD site and not always accurate) and more importantly, look for reviews from customers which you will find here on this site. In the case of the one frame that I did try before I bought, I realized after a few months that I should have gotten a different size. Even riding a frame is no guarantee, as set up makes a huge difference.



> Finally, noone sells your bikes at your phoney "list price" its something you made up to make the customer feel like theyre getting a better deal than they really might be.
> If you think your product is good value - fine, that should be obvious and they'll sell themselves - there should be no need for deceptive trading by throwing out figures that noone ever used, set at which price you would have bikes from more reputable manufacturers and dealers.


Agreed.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

kapusta said:


> So name a saddle, grip, and pedal that everyone will like, or even a majority will like. You can't, regardless of how good they are. You could spec the bike with anything you want, but unless you happen to use Frog pedals, ODI Ruffian grips, and a WTB Shadow or Stealth saddle, I'm going to replace them. Most experienced riders have preferences these preferences vary widely and it has more to do with fit and comfort than how bling they are. I think this is actually a good place to save on build costs. As a customer, I don't want to be paying for a high end saddle, grips (ARE there high end grips?), and pedals, as I WILL most likely replace them. For this reason, many high end bikes don't even come with pedals.
> 
> Tires are somewhat the same in this regard, though there are some that are just better than others, and will satisfy a larger range of preferences than the three above mentioned items.
> 
> Actually, for xc racing, a road cassette is a legit option. I know people who run them on their DH bikes as well. And Ultegra is not a low end cassette. Granted, it is an XT equivalent, not XTR.


Though I know where you're coming from, I dont totally agree.

Some people will change things quickly, others will stick to stock until they break them UNLESS they are intolerable - the most common exception to that rule being pedals (which - flats exempted - are generally not cross compatible).
I wont argue that saddles, grips and tires aren't very personal choices - they most certainly are. But that doesnt mean everyone will rush out and change them, unless the stocks are so hideously awful (or mismatched to the bike/intended terrain - in motobecane case, XC only) that it becomes a neccessity - sensible choices like ruffians and fireXCpro's (saddles are very personal, so thats harder to call) would be acceptable to most people without a desperate need to change them out IMMEDIATELY.

For the person speccing the bikes to give "no thought" (in his own words) to making choices that are at least tolerable to most people shows a lack of care for the consumer in my eyes.

There are choices that will be tolerable to a majority, and choices that will not.

Again, in my opinion, road cassettes are not one of these - they have their places on mtb's, but for most people they are less than ideal and the people that do use them are the people that would be prepared to change to them.
Its not that the road cassette thats the problem (I accept they have their uses), but the majority of people wouldnt choose or suit their use - so speccing them is (again) a lack of care for the majority of customers needs.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I like how mike has ignored responding to the guy with the broken parts on his Outcast 29er.... so... a legit complaint about why the brand has a poor rep (the lack of decent customer service) goes unanswered and the fan boys are fine with that, but will continue harping on the people who understand why there's a bad rep and full well know it.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> I have no idea what you Giant and Kona are or what you paid
> 
> BUT I do not know that lots of LBS in different areas of the country sell bikes like ours for double what we sell them for. And anyone who knows how to read specs knows that too.
> 
> ...


Come on, quit sidestepping.

I have a stock 06 Kona Fire Mountain and a stock 08 Giant Trance X2. Which of your bikes are similar?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Come on, quit sidestepping.
> 
> I have a stock 06 Kona Fire Mountain and a stock 08 Giant Trance X2. Which of your bikes are similar?


http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/400ds.htm

Mike will take your order when you are ready.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

kapusta said:



> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/400ds.htm
> 
> Mike will take your order when you are ready.


Not ever likely, without facts.


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## Bends But Doesn't Break (Jun 23, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> If someone says something that needs rebutting, there is no reason not to - thats why its caled a "_discussion_" forum.


Problem is, you guys have as consistently failed to posit substantive rebuttals, and only offered subjective hypotheticals and personal anecdotes that aren't necessarily reflective of the metrics that Mike uses in running his business (esp., spec'ing and pricing his bike models), as much as Mike has specifically responded to such challenges, however non-substantive, with specific links, figures, and examples.

While the dialogue is entertaining, clearly a lot you are out of your leagues when it comes to debating the bike industry at its various levels. No value judgment on you - it's a bloated (see more below) and apocryphal industry - but try to entertain the possibility that there are some aspects of the bike business that you are simply naive to as consumers - just as the distribution structure wants you to be to ensure their continued profit at your expense. Again and again, Mike has repeatedly stated that he is simply cutting out that bloat to bring you better prices.

The irony is that the more you guys carry on under the guise of challenging and refuting BD's business model, the more you are validating the need for a market solution that provides the truly saavy cycle consumer a value that is unfettered from markups resulting from an over-bloated distribution structure that ultimately results in higher prices for you without any real value-added - except, of course, to the distributors' own wallets, which distributors in most cases wouldn't give you, the individual consumer, the time of day if you asked for it.


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

kapusta said:


> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/400ds.htm
> 
> Mike will take your order when you are ready.


Now, I'm not the one to get into this sort of stuff, but this is getting a bit silly..

I'll admit, I've looked at BD, and almost bought an Outcast. I'll probably buy an SS roadbike at some point. He's got what I want at a price I can afford.

Now, the 400DS is NOT comparable to the Trance. While it may soak up some stuff, it is not a super substantial suspension. The Trance has a much better executed design, and it comes with an LBS, which to me, is the best part. I've got a Trek Mountain Track from 1992 that's completely original, and not a single part has ever been broken. The bike has been taken down steep river beds (a la DH), and logged way too many miles. A week ago, the twist shifter finally broke internally. The LBS, after 16 years, is going to replace the part free of charge, no labor.

Now, I would take ANY bike you throw at me if it came with an LBS. I'll just have to accept that the BD Roadbike I buy won't come with a shop filled with smiling faces and endless parts, but I'm not comparing the quality, or design merits to a clearly superior bike, and calling it "HALF OFF BABY!"


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

The bottom line is that most people who buy bikes are just looking for a bike to ride. These people make up most of the purchases and money to be made in the industry. The bike will be ridden a few times a year and possibly last a lifetime. There are always new customers who fit this profile. It's like selling gym memberships or insurance. If everybody actually used the services, warranties, etc... the company would be out of business.

Those who really ride the bikes and need repairs/service make up the minority. This hard core group will either spend the money at their LBS or do the repairs themselves. The next time they are in the market to buy a bike, a decision will be made based on prior experience. A bad experience with a vendor or brand may be shared within this small circle of customers, but in the larger picture, this kind of feedback will never reach the majority of the buying public.

What's the quote? "There's a sucker born every minute"

I'll give Motobecane a bad rap on their lower end bikes because you get what you pay for. As I said in an earlier post, my Century Team is a good bike and worth the $1400, I spent on it. I would not, however, recommend it to somebody who can't do their own mechanical work.

Read these reviews. The guys who gave this bike 4-5 chilis obviously don't actually ride the bike.
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/bikes/29er/motobecane/outcast-29/PRD_417997_1548crx.aspx

-Chuck


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

EnglishT said:


> Though I know where you're coming from, I dont totally agree.
> 
> Some people will change things quickly, others will stick to stock until they break them UNLESS they are intolerable - the most common exception to that rule being pedals (which - flats exempted - are generally not cross compatible).
> I wont argue that saddles, grips and tires aren't very personal choices - they most certainly are. But that doesnt mean everyone will rush out and change them, unless the stocks are so hideously awful (or mismatched to the bike/intended terrain - in motobecane case, XC only) that it becomes a neccessity - sensible choices like ruffians and fireXCpro's (saddles are very personal, so thats harder to call) would be acceptable to most people without a desperate need to change them out IMMEDIATELY.
> ...


Actually, I have never found a saddle or grip that at higher end pleases most people. Maybe I havent tried enough; but all fannies are different.

On cassettes; it would be easier and cheaper for us to us several alternatives to Ultegra on FLYs. However, the need for wide cassettes is much different on 27 lb or even 25 lb bikes than on 20 lb bikes. We have had more than a few buyers comment that they thought they would need a wide cassette; but after riding the FLY they did not feel they needed it or wanted it.

Also depends on area of the country and type of rider. I am in Florida. A wide road cassette on a 20 lb XC bike is plenty of gearing.

So you are correct; road cassettes can have their place on XC bikes. [we may start including two cassettes with the bike -- same as we include two frt chain rings with current Outcast 29 AND two rear cogs on Fantom Cross UNO]


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## rearviewmirror (Jun 14, 2006)

kapusta said:


> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/400ds.htm
> 
> Mike will take your order when you are ready.


Is that Pedro's bike?


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> two frt chain rings with current Outcast 29


As much as I've heard, nobody has been getting the 32 for a while..


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

Bends But Doesn't Break said:


> Problem is, you guys have as consistently failed to posit substantive rebuttals, and only offered subjective hypotheticals and personal anecdotes that aren't necessarily reflective of the metrics that Mike uses in running his business (esp., spec'ing and pricing his bike models), as much as Mike has specifically responded to such challenges, however non-substantive, with specific links, figures, and examples.
> 
> While the dialogue is entertaining, clearly a lot you are out of your leagues when it comes to debating the bike industry at its various levels. No value judgment on you - it's a bloated (see more below) and apocryphal industry - but try to entertain the possibility that there are some aspects of the bike business that you are simply naive to as consumers - just as the distribution structure wants you to be to ensure their continued profit at your expense. Again and again, Mike has repeatedly stated that he is simply cutting out that bloat to bring you better prices.
> 
> The irony is that the more you guys carry on under the guise of challenging and refuting BD's business model, the more you are validating the need for a market solution that provides the truly saavy cycle consumer a value that is unfettered from markups resulting from an over-bloated distribution structure that ultimately results in higher prices for you without any real value-added - except, of course, to the distributors' own wallets, which distributors in most cases wouldn't give you, the individual consumer, the time of day if you asked for it.


Wow, spelling errors, same "Know-it-all and you don't" attitude, same lines but bigger words.

I ask again, Is this Mike with a thesaurus?


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## Bends But Doesn't Break (Jun 23, 2008)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Wow, spelling errors, same "Know-it-all and you don't" attitude, same lines but bigger words.
> 
> I ask again, Is this Mike with a thesaurus?


First, failing to recognize words on your part does not constitute misspelling on mine, and second, no, I'm not Mike.

What was that I said about, "being out of your league?"


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

DeeEight said:


> I like how mike has ignored responding to the guy with the broken parts on his Outcast 29er.... so... a legit complaint about why the brand has a poor rep (the lack of decent customer service) goes unanswered and the fan boys are fine with that, but will continue harping on the people who understand why there's a bad rep and full well know it.


It is hard to know how to respond; I do not have all the facts.

I know I have heard of no other bent RR axles on Outcast 29; and that we have an Outcast 29 and Outcast 26 we use at our house - no issues.

I know our standard operating procedure on claimed defects is to do one of the following:
1 - pick the bike up for refund or replacement
2 - pick the offending part up for repair or replacement
3 - get a photo from customer and if the part is small and easy to replace; just send a new one
4 - offer a cash payment
5 - something else that customer may reccommend as long as it is fair

~~~
Now if I understand this case correctly; it involves modification of part which all warranties I know of state voids warranty. However, we are not strict on warranty judgements but do like customers to understand them.

This claim seems like it clearly fell outside the 'SOP' and I assume my people were making a good faith effort to work it out. No one at my company is paid to make customers unhappy or avoid honoring valid warranty claims. And the truth is: we honor dozens of non valid claims every week just to keep things smooth {as do most bike sellers}

I can say however without question: We have sold THOUSANDS of Outcasts and had no major issue other than from time to time the factory forgeting to pack the extra bonus chain ring. Of course, if someone gets one without the bonus ring and sends us an e-mail - we just mail one out; no big deal. This might be one in 50 or 60 bikes. As far as hearing about lots of bent axles - just has not happened.


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

No, there were some silly typos, but no mispellings other than Hypotheticals, which isn't a word, Hypotheses would be the closest word..

However, using an eloquent vocabulary generally doesn't do much. If you're showing off in an essay, that's fine. If you're trying to talk to someone, especially on an informal forum, casual sentence structure gets the point across much better..


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

KingCrimson said:


> However, using an eloquent vocabulary generally doesn't do much. If you're showing off in an essay, that's fine. If you're trying to talk to someone, especially on an informal forum, casual sentence structure gets the point across much better..


I agree with you on this point.

OK---everybody change my "spelling errors" to "silly typos".

Still, the "What is said", the "How it's said" (except for the big words) and the "Why it's said seem very similar.


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Still, the "What is said", the "How it's said" (except for the big words) and the "Why it's said seem very similar.


:thumbsup:

I'm quite anal when it comes to blatant spelling and grammatical errors, but I can't say I'd ever take the time to type like that.

His manner of speaking seems a bit forced.

Forced like you're trying to change who you sound like. :skep:


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> I agree with you on this point.
> 
> OK---everybody change my "spelling errors" to "silly typos".
> 
> Still, the "What is said", the "How it's said" (except for the big words) and the "Why it's said seem very similar.


I am unclear about what you are trying to say
but if you are trying to say I post here under two different names; then you are a little bit crazy and surely do not understand me nor what I am doing.


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## Jake Pay (Dec 27, 2006)

Mikey said:


> surely do not understand me nor what I am doing.


Free advertising.........Do I win anything


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Jake Pay said:


> Free advertising.........Do I win anything


You might
except it is the wrong guess

Care to go for what's behind door #2?


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> I am unclear about what you are trying to say
> but if you are trying to say I post here under two different names


Oh no. I would never think you would stoop to just two.


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## Jake Pay (Dec 27, 2006)

Mikey said:


> Care to go for what's behind door #2?


You're a gluten for punishment......Did I get it


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

He's.......

"Here to dispel all of the myths and rumors about his business. He wants to create a better connection between the manufacturer and the customer. He wants to make sure people know he's really about offering low-cost high quality products through more efficient use of the distribution channel."

Now gimme my Mercier!

No, it's not quotes, they are there because I quoted it in the same manner Dr. Evil quotes "Lay-zer"


----------



## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

*The facts about my Outcast 29er, but point is moot*



bikesdirect said:


> It is hard to know how to respond; I do not have all the facts.
> 
> I know I have heard of no other bent RR axles on Outcast 29; and that we have an Outcast 29 and Outcast 26 we use at our house - no issues.
> 
> ...


Hi Mike,

I have 2 Motobecane bikes. I'm not making a claim that all of the bikes are bad. Just that after about 500 miles of real mountain biking, my bike is having problems.

I'm including my conversation with [email protected]. I think after I replace the front hub, there's not much left to break. Maybe I might take you up on a new warranty claim on the front wheel, but I'm worried that if I disassemble and clean it to make sure that the hub or bearings are bad it will void my warranty. The bottom line here is that if it costs more than $45 to ship both ways, I'm better off buying a higher quality hub and re-lacing the wheel myself.

-Chuck

Original inquiry and response from Bikes Direct follows:

Thanks for choosing Motobecane USA
We are sorry you did not contact us right away.

Had you contacted us, we would have sent you a new axle or rear wheel in 
less than a weeks time.

Since you have already replaced parts with non-original equipment, this 
voids the warranty on the rear wheel.
However, instead of leaving you without any options, we can offer you a rear 
wheel at wholesale price - $48

We are copying this email to Joe of Bikesdirect.com
they can get you any rear wheel or wheelset from www.bikeisland.com for the 
wholesale price.

Please let us know if you should need any additional assistance.

Best wishes,
Charles
Motobecane USA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Joga" <[email protected]
To: "info" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: Warranty for Motobecane Outcast 29 Wheel

> Thanks for the reply.
>
> I have cleaned and repacked the hubs twice since November. I do my own
> maintenance. The reason for doing the maintenance so early on the new 
> bike
> is that the rear axle was bent from the factory and I discovered this on 
> the
> very first ride. Rather than deal with a warranty claim and the shipping
> costs, I purchased a new axle locally and rebuilt the hub myself. 2 
> months
> later, I found a higher quality stainless steel axle and installed it with
> another hub rebuild.
>
> Besides my receipts for the new axles that I purchased, there are no
> receipts for proof of maintenance.
>
> The bent axle from the factory is likely the root cause for the hub issues
> that I am experiencing and the problem that I am claiming has nothing to 
> do
> with maintenance.
>
> Since this warranty claim will cost me additional time and money, it is 
> less
> expensive/time consuming to purchase a higher quality hub and re-lace the
> wheel myself.
>
> Although the Outcast 29 bike was a great deal, there are quality issues 
> that
> have raised the overall cost of ownership to close to the price of a 
> Redline
> Monocog from my local bike shop. If I included my downtime, labor, and 
> cost
> of gas, the Redline with higher quality parts is the better deal.
>
> I'm sure that this is an exception, but a bike with less than 500 miles on
> it should not have these problems. I wish that there were a local
> Motobecane dealer that could help me with these issues. This is my second
> Motobecane bike. The first one had minor issues that I've had to resolve 
> on
> my own also. I've go mixed feelings on the advantages of purchasing this
> brand. I may be ahead by a few dollars, but if I did not do my own
> mechanical work, the overall cost would not be worth it. Motobecane 
> really
> needs to step up the warranty service. Especially where you know there 
> are
> problem areas.
>
> Sincerely,
> -Chuck Joga
>
>
> On 6/9/08 2:27 PM, "info" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for choosing Motobecane USA
>>
>> Wheels are not maintenance free items and require regular overhauls and
>> regreasing especially if subject to moisture and dirt. If you can supply
>> receipts showing that you have done regular maintenance on the bearings, 
>> we
>> will be happy to exchange your wheel.
>>
>> Please send your wheel with proof of regular maintenance on the bearings.
>> To our national warranty service center:
>>
>> Motobecane Warranty
>> attn: Joe
>> 317 23rd Ave S
>> Jacksonville Bch
>> FL 32250
>>
>> be sure to include a copy of your receipt of purchase
>> prepaid return label
>> brief note stating problem
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Motobecane USA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chuck Joga" <[email protected]
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:11 AM
>> Subject: Warranty for Motobecane Outcast 29 Wheel
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I purchased a Motobecane Outcast 29 from Bikes Direct last November. 
>>> The
>>> rear wheel hub bearings and races have become rough turning. Removing 
>>> the
>>> outer bearing race shows galling in the race surfaces which is causing 
>>> the
>>> axle to not rotate smoothly.
>>>
>>> I wish to obtain a rear wheel exchange.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> -Chuck


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

KingCrimson said:


> He's.......
> 
> "Here to dispel all of the myths and rumors about his business. He wants to create a better connection between the manufacturer and the customer. He wants to make sure people know he's really about offering low-cost high quality products through more efficient use of the distribution channel."
> 
> ...


No free Mercier as a prize; HOWEVER contact me for a nice discount when you are ready to buy -- use the PM system

{refer to this link - offer good on current stuff or some really nice stuff coming early 2009 - including new DuraAce 7900 bikes}

Thanks
mike


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

chuckjoga said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> I have 2 Motobecane bikes. I'm not making a claim that all of the bikes are bad. Just that after about 500 miles of real mountain biking, my bike is having problems.
> 
> ...


Chuck

Thanks for your purchases.

Of course, cleaning and servicing a wheel does not void the warranty.

I am shocked you are having hub issues; as we have not had those. But we can certainly help you out. And I am wondering what the issue on the front is?

Transporation is always an issue with warranty stuff; even if you buy from a shop. Sometimes the cost of driving back and forth to a shop costs more than the item; sometimes shipping costs more than the item; sometimes driving costs more than shipping; it just all depends. Sure was the case with me on a defective mouse I got from best buy; driving back would cost more than the mouse. {of course, MicroSoft does not cover transportation charges - just like every company in the bike business}

Anyway, if you want new wheels or that one fixed; let me know. Just drop me a PM.
The most bullet proof ATB wheels we have ever sold are Vueltas - but they are all Disc Ready and with QR -- so not too much like the Outcast wheels.


----------



## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> {of course, MicroSoft does not cover transportation charges - *just like every company in the bike business}*


Not only are you wrong about this but I suspect you know better and are saying it anyways. I've never had to pay shipping charges for warrantied items and Hayes even sent me free spare parts to my house (which I never even asked for). As I've pointed out before, your guys warranty service may be okay compared to Microsoft but compared to other companies in the bike industry it kind of sucks.


----------



## jelliott (Sep 30, 2006)

Holy crap! 13 pages and still no end in sight?! Be afraid, be very afraid.


----------



## Jake Pay (Dec 27, 2006)

jelliott said:


> Holy crap! 13 pages and still no end in sight?! Be afraid, be very afraid.


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Exactly... i could have bicycled my cracked GF Wahoo frame to the dealer if I was worried about the 2L of gasoline I was gonna burn doing the drive. But the dealer didn't charge me dollar ONE for the service of handling a warranty check and GF didn't charge me for the new frame at all. Hell the dealer even took the step to disassemble a brand new 2009 Wahoo to get me a frame after GF approved the replacement but then shipped the store a full bicycle instead of just a frame. I even got a new zero stack headset to go with the frame (the old wahoo took a conventional headset, and the dealer didn't know if I had any ZS headsets so they thru one in with the frame free of charge). 

When I had to warranty an Oryx frame, Procycle didn't charge me anything for the service though had I elected to upgrade to a rocky mountain frame in replacement there'd have been an upcharge. In the end, they offered me a $675 credit because my frame (in fact the whole production run) was defective and they had nothing close in value to offer in replacement otherwise. I used that credit at the dealer where I bought the bike originally, to get other parts/frames.


----------



## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Sorry zarr, I have to answer no to this one. My Zion is a better bargain.


Noobi. One must remember that you said YOUR Zion is a better bargain. In all probability that statement is true. I mean after all, the Force is with it!  ---zarr


----------



## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

zarr said:


> Noobi. One must remember that you said YOUR Zion is a better bargain. In all probability that statement is true. I mean after all, the Force is with it!  ---zarr


Zarr, can't say I've been around long enough to see many of your posts, but I gotta ask...

WTF?!?


----------



## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

KingCrimson said:


> Zarr, can't say I've been around long enough to see many of your posts, but I gotta ask...
> 
> WTF?!?


Iwas just joking around with Noobi-Wan Kenobi about his reply to my statement about the Fantom29 Pro earlier in the thread. (scroll up a little bit. I always joke with him because of his name being connected to Star Wars. (May the Force be with you). Sorry I didn't make myself more clear.---zarr


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Clutchman83 said:


> Not only are you wrong about this but I suspect you know better and are saying it anyways. I've never had to pay shipping charges for warrantied items and Hayes even sent me free spare parts to my house (which I never even asked for). As I've pointed out before, your guys warranty service may be okay compared to Microsoft but compared to other companies in the bike industry it kind of sucks.


Please point out to me a Bicycle Warranty that covers transportation in the stated warranty. I have never seen one.

Have we ever covered shipping? Sure - my guess is everyone has
BUT I have never seen a warranty state that shipping would be covered and all I remmember exclude it in writing.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

DeeEight said:


> Exactly... i could have bicycled my cracked GF Wahoo frame to the dealer if I was worried about the 2L of gasoline I was gonna burn doing the drive. But the dealer didn't charge me dollar ONE for the service of handling a warranty check and GF didn't charge me for the new frame at all. Hell the dealer even took the step to disassemble a brand new 2009 Wahoo to get me a frame after GF approved the replacement but then shipped the store a full bicycle instead of just a frame. I even got a new zero stack headset to go with the frame (the old wahoo took a conventional headset, and the dealer didn't know if I had any ZS headsets so they thru one in with the frame free of charge).
> 
> When I had to warranty an Oryx frame, Procycle didn't charge me anything for the service though had I elected to upgrade to a rocky mountain frame in replacement there'd have been an upcharge. In the end, they offered me a $675 credit because my frame (in fact the whole production run) was defective and they had nothing close in value to offer in replacement otherwise. I used that credit at the dealer where I bought the bike originally, to get other parts/frames.


I see now - you are in Canada
and after looking back it seems funny that two of the major detractors in this thread are from countries we stopped shipping to earlier this year when the bicycle shortage started.
{excuse me: but supplying the USA is my top priority}

We do get requests daily from Canada - but it is harder to service buyers there and since we can not cover all requests from within the USA; no reason to ship outside the USA.

Of course, I understand a bike like the new Fantom Pro Ti would be over twice as much as our price in Canada - that is why so many buyers get friends to buy our bikes and ship them to spots close to the broader for later pickup by car.


----------



## snobrder5 (Apr 16, 2006)

at this point i'm pretty ashamed to have ever been associated with motobecane....yes mike, i know that you mean well and that you're just trying to dispel any rumors etc....but you always say that you're trying to gather info as to what consumers want, etc....well maybe you should listen to them and fix your warranty.....how bout YOU absorb the costs of shipping, and then in turn be BETTER than (supposedly) every other bike company out there at least at something...yes your prices might go up, but oh well i'm sure you wont go under.....or how bout you stop specing horrible hubs etc (stuff that has been noted on here MANY times to have gone bad), and you wont have as many warranty claims......OR, you could make it CLEAR that greasing and MAINTAINING hubs is routine maintenance and shouldn't be covered under a warranty anyway!!!! God dang just put the stuff in writing....or use shimano hubs, and state that component warranty issues are to be handled through the manufacturer.....the ONLY thing that YOU as a manufacturer should ever warranty against defects, is anything you MANUFACTURER! i.e., the FRAME (and fork if applicable...)

how bout you start a campaign to let everyone know that you're only going to be using name brand components (like hubs and rims mainly), and that all warranty claims are to be handled through the manufacturer....

you know i tried for a long time to stand behind your company, b/c your products aren't really bad as a whole....but your business practices are just horrible, and i just cant get on board anymore....sorry mike.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

*well since you brought it up...*



KingCrimson said:


> However, using an eloquent vocabulary generally doesn't do much. If you're showing off in an essay, that's fine. If you're trying to talk to someone, especially on an informal forum, casual sentence structure gets the point across much better..


i would certainly disagree with that. personally i find it much more enjoyable to read well written posts from those who have an expanded vocabulary and are well spoken than to slog though the posts with such sentences as "_they're hydrolic breaks are better then the vee breaks your using_". and how about the posts consisting of one paragraph that if properly disjoined and reorganized would actually be 7 paragraphs?

i'm generally not a grammar snob because there are some things that aren't important to some people, and poor grammar/vocabulary is not an intrinsic barometer of one's intellectual capacity. i know some brilliant people with abysmal communication skills, and vice versa. but like it or not, right or wrong, most of the world judges people on how they communicate. in the arena of interweb forums this is true even more so.

when i was a kid the dumb kids were ridiculed and teased. it seems that now there has been a paradigm shift and one is often ridiculed for being intelligent and possessing an expanded/eloquent vocabulary. WTF?!?!?! guess i missed the memo that it was now hip to be dumb.

which begs the question... why should those with an expanded vocabulary be forced to dumb it down for others on an interweb forum? the people who don't know the words have the option to look them up immediately. should those who ride high end bikes not take them to group rides where there are people with inferior bikes to avoid bending their feelers too? where does it end? i'm not saying one should just go around trying to insult people and make them feel bad/stupid/inferior/etc.; but i don't think there is any valid argument to support the notion that one should avoid using one's vocabulary simply because someone else might be offended because they don't understand what they just read.

the rampant socialist political correctness that has our society's testicles in a vice is out of control. it is a cancer that has eaten away at the very fabric of our culture. like it or not everyone is not the same. there are smart people and stupid people. rich people and poor people. educated and uneducated. professionals and laymen. screw this ecumenical mantra of "_kumbaya, we're all the same_". screw having to tiptoe around people and not use one's vocabulary, skills, education, etc. so they don't get their feelings hurt because they don't understand what's going on around them. screw having to dumb it down because of those who have no interest in educating themselves and communicating on a level that requires words with more than two syllables.

why should one have to carry around construction paper and crayons just to communicate with the growing segment of our society that slept through english/grammar their entire scholastic career (or was passed despite not demonstrating proficiency)? there was a time not so many years ago when it was considered a lofty goal to better one's self. when achieving was lauded. when feeling inferior and wanting to have or be more was impetus to better one's self.

now it's just the basis for a lawsuit to make someone else pay and make reparations because some fuktard "have not" feels disenfranchised by the "haves". :madman:

/rant.


----------



## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

Anyone up for a bet on how many pages this thread will last?


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> I see now - you are in Canada
> and after looking back it seems funny that two of the major detractors in this thread are from countries we stopped shipping to earlier this year when the bicycle shortage started.
> {excuse me: but supplying the USA is my top priority}


And now you go off topic of what I said, to shill/spam your wares again. I don't give a flying figtree if you don't ship to canada. I would NEVER EVER buy one of your bikes. As I said near the beginning of one of these multiple spam threads of yours, I could build my own bike LIGHTER and cheaper than ordering one of yours.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

why do they get a bad rep?

seems to me there are several reasons...

1. heavy.
2. crappy components.
3. crappy customer service.
4. ambiguous warranty.
5. refusal to stand behind their product.

seems that trying to deal with this company is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

monogod said:


> why do they get a bad rep?
> 
> seems to me there are several reasons...
> 
> ...


This is a funny post
on points that can be objectively evaluated [1] [2] and [4] please tell everyone how this 19.5 lb XC bike is Heavy, has crappy components, and has an ambiguous warranty

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fly_TI_09.htm

And then point out where you find a lighter hardtail with better components and a more clearly worded warranty.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

DeeEight said:



> I could build my own bike LIGHTER and cheaper than ordering one of yours.


Lots of people would love to see the list of parts, weights, and prices that you would use to produce a new bike that is lighter than a FLY 9357 and under $1500.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fly_9357_09.htm

A 'build your own' new hardtail that is under 21lbs can be done; but at under $1500 with all new current parts is another task all together.

Maybe when you post your list of the parts and their cost & source, we can all learn something. I maybe able to incorporate your ideas into a new model.

Thanks


----------



## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

rabidweasel999 said:


> Anyone up for a bet on how many pages this thread will last?


Lighten up my brother. A lot of good points are being made on this thread. Let it ride.


----------



## Bends But Doesn't Break (Jun 23, 2008)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> I agree with you on this point.
> 
> OK---everybody change my "spelling errors" to "silly typos".
> 
> Still, the "What is said", the "How it's said" (except for the big words) and the "Why it's said seem very similar.


Mike and I, the same person?

You're losing credibility by the moment.

Refute not the content of the opposing dialogue, but the manner in which it is articulated.

Indeed, that's an effective tact that gets you far in life.

Still waiting to see one substantive refutation of Mike's position and accommodation of any of the objections that have been raised yet.

Until then, my order for a FlyTeamTi can't ship soon enough.


----------



## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Bends But Doesn't Break said:


> Mike and I, the same person?
> 
> You're losing credibility by the moment.
> 
> ...


I want to see Moto and bikes direct grow. :thumbsup:


----------



## Bends But Doesn't Break (Jun 23, 2008)

KingCrimson said:


> No, there were some silly typos, but no mispellings other than Hypotheticals, which isn't a word, Hypotheses would be the closest word..
> 
> However, using an eloquent vocabulary generally doesn't do much. If you're showing off in an essay, that's fine. If you're trying to talk to someone, especially on an informal forum, casual sentence structure gets the point across much better..


Thank you for your sophomoric proscription, but for all I care, you can wear your soiled underwear over your head while taking a long walk off a short pier.

I'll stoop as low as to dispel posts that are clearly predicated on patently false or incorrect premises or pretenses of which so far there are many, but none of which have undermined as they are intended to Mike's business model or practices, limited to those raised in the present discussion.

But I will not modify my diction to suit the needs of those who perhaps could benefit from seeing some standard English above that of the repertory of raised-in-the-90's MTV-generation trash. How further ironic, and moreover sad, that this should become a subject of contention in spite of the given thread subject, for which all by itself the inability to dissect a particular topic without resorting to attacks borne of emotional underdevelopment is quite telling.


----------



## kolyan2k (May 31, 2008)

DeeEight said:


> People with limited incomes do not buy $2000 bikes. They go to walmart and spend $100 on a bike.


BS. I bought 700DS for $600 because thats how much I want to spend on a bike and NONE of Walmart bikes can be compared in terms of quality and components


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> This is a funny post
> on points that can be objectively evaluated [1] [2] and [4] please tell everyone how this 19.5 lb XC bike is Heavy, has crappy components, and has an ambiguous warranty
> 
> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fly_TI_09.htm
> ...


whoopty do! so you finally decide to produce decent bikes! yippy skippy!

that hardly negates the fact that motobecane is not generally known or recognized for their high end bikes. they are known for low end, entry level, heavy, crappily spec'ed bikes and abysmal (at best) customer service. kudos to you for wanting to turn that around and try to gain a market share of better bikes, because this will lend some brand name value to the rest of your line. to be honest and fair, your bikes have been coming spec'ed a bit better lately. but the reputation is STILL THERE.

so your response is like breaking all your fingers by slamming both hands in a door and then insisting your fingers arent broken because your thumb was not fractured. 

i noticed you didn't address [3], crappy customer service or [5] refusal to stand behind their product.

everyone i have ever known with a motobecane has reported an inferior product with crappy customer service, a plethora of examples have been listed in this thread. perhaps the new approach with the new lines will reverse that. and to be honest, i hope for your sake it does. i wish you no harm, but the fact of the matter is the points i listed are widely held as FACT throughout the entire industry based on looking back through the years. yet you refute them with '09 bike specs? :skep:

like it or not, motobecane has a reputation for producing cruddy bikes backed with abysmal customer service. it seems that you genuinely desire to change the current image of motobecane and i sincerely hope you are able to restore credibility to the brand name, as it was once very respected; and hope that you are able to be successful with BD in general. please don't construe what i've said as ill wishes for your business. but facts is facts.

your ti bike has to be a good deal, because your customer service sucks. or at least has that reputation. there is a reason the bikes are so cheap with the given components, and that you are willing to accept such a minuscule profit margin for each bike sold. the most likely scenario is that you are trying to shed your crappy image and reputation in the industry. and that is admirable.

but i also noticed that these are the PRE-ORDER prices that must be PRE-PAID before the bikes have even been produced, and the website clearly states the retail price will be higher when they are in stock. again, i understand that you are trying to bank roll this years run of bikes, but don't be disingenuous and try to make it sound like these are going to be cheaper than they really will be one they are actually in stock. that's typical of the shady b.s. you are famous for. shame on you.

lastly, i noticed you ignored the last line completely. why is that? simple. it's true. i wish you all the best in turning that around, but based on your behavior in this thread you aren't putting forth that much effort.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

monogod said:


> lastly, i noticed you ignored the last line completely. why is that? simple. it's true. i wish you all the best in turning that around, but based on your behavior in this thread you aren't putting forth that much effort.


How much effort should he put into finding the clean end of a turd?


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Huh. I would not have been too happy after this transaction. I don't have an issue with BD choosing to go with this warranty policy as it is pretty clearly stated and it's their right to do so, but seeing how it actually plays out makes it more of a deal-breaker for me as a customer. 

I have a question: Does BD pay for the shipping of the replacement part or frame?


----------



## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> Please point out to me a Bicycle Warranty that covers transportation in the stated warranty. I have never seen one.
> 
> Have we ever covered shipping? Sure - my guess is everyone has
> BUT I have never seen a warranty state that shipping would be covered and all I remmember exclude it in writing.


I never said it was stated in the warranty. I said they _did_ it. There is a difference between following the letter of your warranty and actually taking care of the customer. The point is I have had good and bad experiences regarding warranty service and what you have said in defense of your service would put it squarely in the bad category compared to others.

I'm not trying to bash your company Mike, I'm trying point out that this consumer doesn't agree with your assertions that your companies warranty is something to be proud of or stand behind. Now, you don't have to agree with me but you might find that you'd encounter less resistance by many people if you showed you were listening to these gripes rather than trying to convince us we're wrong.


----------



## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

Monogod, I was speaking of purposefully going out of one's way to type in a manner to downplay others through the use of an eloquent vocabulary. In my opinion, Bends But Doesn't Break is typing in a forced manner. We can all make Shakespearian posts, but that doesn't me we should :thumbsup:

Bends, I don't quite know what sort of facade you're trying to put on..You're very talented in the field of typing in a forced manner, but you're personally attacking people at the same time? Maturely immature?


----------



## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

Bends But Doesn't Break said:


> Thank you for your sophomoric proscription, but for all I care, you can wear your soiled underwear over your head while taking a long walk off a short pier.
> 
> I'll stoop as low as to dispel posts that are clearly predicated on patently false or incorrect premises or pretenses of which so far there are many, but none of which have undermined as they are intended to Mike's business model or practices, limited to those raised in the present discussion.
> 
> But I will not modify my diction to suit the needs of those who perhaps could benefit from seeing some standard English above that of the repertory of raised-in-the-90's MTV-generation trash. How further ironic, and moreover sad, that this should become a subject of contention in spite of the given thread subject, for which all by itself the inability to dissect a particular topic without resorting to attacks borne of emotional underdevelopment is quite telling.


Some would say this post is an attack borne of emotional underdevelopment.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

zarr said:


> Lighten up my brother. A lot of good points are being made on this thread. Let it ride.


I agree
and lots of topics not even touched on yet

Like:
Buying online vs used in order to stay in budget; which is safest?
Is it safe to buy a CF bike used?
In what way is Motobecane warranty actually better than other warranties?
How will new 2009 prices effect the reputation of all brands?
Will potential cyclists go to other sports if they can not find quality bikes within budget?
Which brands have no on-line detractors?
What brands never use lower level components on any models?
How should a dealer handle false defect claims?
How much does it cost to shop in person vs online?
Which bikes can not be found or tested in any town?
Is there a dealer in your area that carries a full selection?
Is aero or weight more important in a Tri bike?
If you take a CF frame and a Ti frame and two people bang them together like swords a couple of times as hard as they can; which one would you feel like building back up and riding if you had to?

And I can go on and on
plenty of stuff that can be addressed; I assume forever
In fact, I have been talking about this kind of stuff for 30 years


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

kapusta said:


> How much effort should he put into finding the clean end of a turd?


you tell us.

none of what i wrote had anything to do with putting forth effort into finding the clean end of a butt loaf.

hint: re-read the sentences that have befuddled you. i'll put them all together to make it easier.

read slowly and carefully. this time there will be a test! the key is at the bottom of the page, but no fair peeking... :nono:

STATEMENT ONE: _ seems that trying to deal with this company is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end._

STATEMENT TWO:_ lastly, i noticed you ignored the last line completely. why is that? simple. it's true. _

STATEMENT THREE: _ i wish you all the best in turning that around, but based on your behavior in this thread you aren't putting forth that much effort._

now, multiple choice quiz time:

1. what is statement one about? 
 sub par customer service.
 touching excrement.
 um.... what was the question again?
 i have no idea wtf you just said.

2. what did statement two imply was true, due to it not being addressed? 
 sub par customer service.
 touching excrement.
 um.... what was the question again?
 i have no idea wtf you just said.

3. based on statements one and two, what does "that" in the first half of statement three refer to? 
 sub par customer service.
 touching excrement.
 um.... what was the question again?
 i have no idea wtf you just said.

4. based on the first half of statement three (specifically the pronoun "that") followed by specifically identifying "behavior in this thread", "not much effort" is clearly being put forth into what? 
 turning around sub par customer service.
 finding the clean end of a turd.
 um.... what was the question again?
 i have no idea wtf you just said.

how'd you do this time around?

˙„ɐ„ sı ןןɐ oʇ ɹǝʍsuɐ ǝɥʇ


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

KingCrimson said:


> Monogod, I was speaking of purposefully going out of one's way to type in a manner to downplay others through the use of an eloquent vocabulary. In my opinion, Bends But Doesn't Break is typing in a forced manner.


yeah, i certainly agree with you there. :thumbsup:


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> I agree
> and lots of topics not even touched on yet
> 
> Like:
> ...


*Mike - you would get alot more respect (as others have said) if you tried to show/appear that you're listening and caring about peoples opinions and how to improve your company in their eyes as obviously right now you dont care about anyones opinion but your own on what makes a good company. Constantly trying to spin things to make them look wrong, misguided or elsewise, does nothing but make you look like a politician (noone likes a politician ) and turns more people against you.

Have you ever heard the saying "The customer is always right"?
This doesnt mean literally - but you have to try and treat him as if you believe it - even if you dont. Trying to constantly tell potential customers here that they are wrong, and at the same time spin it around to try and make them buy a bike from you will not impress. Remember, whats written in words is much easier to recall and look back on, because you can have no doubts in your mind about what is being said - this makes it easier for people to tell whats ******** and whats not, and harder to make a sale through slimy tradesmanship.
As things are - your actions are coming across as very "used car salesman", combined with a "the customer is always wrong" attitude - this isnt too impressive.

Why not take points onboard, and try to turn the reputation around - even if means actually agree'ing/empathising people that think you aren't so great. That might actually have an affect.

*


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

monogod said:


> yeah, i certainly agree with you there. :thumbsup:


Sorry for the misunderstanding buddy


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> Buying online vs used in order to stay in budget; which is safest?


depends on the quality of the product as well as the reputation and customer service of the online vendor.

some might argue that it ceases to be a budget purchase when valid warranty claims are denied and the person has to pay to ship a defective part back to the mfg.

also, virtually all shops offer free maintenance programs for in shop purchases. in order to not have the warranty invalidated for an online purchase one must get certain maintenance performed by a professional wrench and provide documentation of the service.

adding the required service to the initial cost plus shipping can often quickly surpass buying used or at one's lbs.

at least when buying used one can look at and ride the bike, and can generally get a much nicer bike for the same cost as a new lower end model online. no warranty is offset by the deep discount.

if one doesn't know what they're looking for when checking over a used bike then yeah, they can get poked in the corn chute in the transaction.

but then again, when one doesn't know what they are looking for online they can get jammed in the caboose and come away thinking they got an awesome bike. then they bring it to the shop for service and find out the hard way they got punk'd.



bikesdirect said:


> Is it safe to buy a CF bike used?


it is not inherently unsafe. so the blanket answer is yes, it is safe to buy a CF bike used. one simply has to know what to look for when inspecting the frame.



bikesdirect said:


> In what way is Motobecane warranty actually better than other warranties?


i haven't seen any yet.



bikesdirect said:


> How will new 2009 prices effect the reputation of all brands?


the "reputation"? none. stuff costs more every year. that's due to the gubment running the economy and centralized banking utilizing fiat currency. has nothing to do with the reputation of a brand.



bikesdirect said:


> Will potential cyclists go to other sports if they can not find quality bikes within budget?


most likely not. when someone wants to try a sport they generally find a way to give it a try be it renting or buying used or cheap. those who find a way get a quality bike are cyclists, those who don't never were. everything is not for everybody.



bikesdirect said:


> Which brands have no on-line detractors?
> What brands never use lower level components on any models?


none and none. but then again some brands do not offer anything but lower level models either.



bikesdirect said:


> How should a dealer handle false defect claims?


case by case issue. but generally find in favor of the consumer unless it is blatant abuse and not materials/workmanship defect.



bikesdirect said:


> How much does it cost to shop in person vs online?


initially or taking into consideration service that must be done in order to keep the warranty valid? or having a shop locally?

i've worked in a bunch of shops, and generally people who buy online end up paying more in the long run. way more.



bikesdirect said:


> Which bikes can not be found or tested in any town?


moot point because there is no town that carries every model of every brand in every size to be test ridden.

but at least at your lbs you can be sure you're getting the right size and can actually look at the bike before you buy it rather than hoping you like the bike you ordered from a picture on a website. and generally the lbs will order the bike of interest in your size so it can be ridden before purchase to make sure its a good fit and everything clicks. if not, the buyer is not out any money. same can't be said for purchasing online.



bikesdirect said:


> Is there a dealer in your area that carries a full selection?


see above



bikesdirect said:


> Is aero or weight more important in a Tri bike?


these are folks who pi</>ss on themselves while riding to save time and reduce weight, so that question can never actually be answered even within the tri niche.



bikesdirect said:


> If you take a CF frame and a Ti frame and two people bang them together like swords a couple of times as hard as they can; which one would you feel like building back up and riding if you had to?


yeah, or bang on them with a hammer. or lay them in the yard and drop bricks on them from the roof. or engage in any other asinine behavior that lies outside the intended use of a bike frame. 

i guarantee that one could put a sizable dent in a ti frame with a CF frame, distort the downtube enough to compromise the geometry, or even compromise a critical weld. CF is incredibly strong and solid and is not the delicate material that needs to be babied that many make it out to be.

a better question is this, which would one feel more comfortable building up... a CF or ti frame with a hairline crack in the head tube to top tube joint?

listen dude, i'm not saying that you don't offer some nice models this year or that all MB's suck. i was initially answering the question of why right now, today, MB has the bad rep they do. it is clear that this is being addressed by offering nicely spec'd bikes at a very reasonable price. but as others have pointed out, your approach to customers is less than desirable. to many, this is a deal breaker no matter what the price point or value.

just sayin... :thumbsup:


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Holy crap, lighten up! I have no idea what you read into my post, but I was joking.

I do, on rare occasion, reply to your posts for reasons other than to disagree with you.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

kapusta said:


> Holy crap, lighten up! I have no idea what you read into my post, but I was joking.


c'mon dude... you should know me better than that by now to think i take anything too terribly seriously. it was a good line and i was just cracking a funny in retort. :lol:

since i type really, really fast it doesn't take long to bang out a post longer than a line or two (i.e. a couple of minutes). i was lmao while writing the quiz and figured you'd get a kick out of it too. especially the attention to detail, like the upside down answer key at the bottom. 



kaputsta said:


> I do, on rare occasion, reply to your posts for reasons other than to disagree with you.


oh yeah??? since when? :skep:

j/k


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Who makes a better $800 hardtail 29er than Motobecane? (the Motobecane Fantom29 Pro).???...


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## mteez (Sep 22, 2007)

For what its worth Im still pretty ok with my Moto Kenesis Bike.
I've read its frame design is yesterdays news but so am I at 55 so whats the difference. 








I got started rather late in the MTB thing,(this is only my first F.S. bike),but I built it all up myself at home from the frame/shock with some good parts (I think) . This was an inexpensive frame and shock for me to start with ($399.00) and a hand full of the parts came off my old 1999 model schwinn hardtail which made this more affordable than buying a whole new bike . One feature this bike has that others did not is 3", 4" and 5" adjustable rear suspension choices. I did not see this option on other frames costing three times as much. Another good feature on this frame was brake bosses which allowed me to use rim brakes and still transfer my mavic wheels over from my old hardtail on this frame. Try finding a new frame at this price with either of these two features. It was difficult enough just to find a decent fork with rim brake bosses as well. :bluefrown: 








Some parts I had to buy new in order to make things work but I shopped all the parts online at good prices.The bike is in the 23 pound range and has Mavic Crossmax wheels , FSA carbon bars /stem and seat post (not pictured) Sram XO shifters and Rear D ,XTR cranks and Front D.combined with a Reba Race front fork. It handles the rough stuff pretty well ,rides smoother than my old hardtail and the frame and I are still in one piece .:thumbsup: 








I ride XC type terrain and am not out hucking big airs and jumps so I expect to have this bike frame around for a while. If it dies before I do then I will try to move the parts over to something more current. As for the Moto bad rap I have no issues to report on the frameset so far. I am able to enjoy full suspension MTB riding for a good price and get out on some fun trail rides with out getting too beat up by the rough stuff.:thumbsup:


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

zarr said:


> Who makes a better $800 hardtail 29er than Motobecane? (the Motobecane Fantom29 Pro).???...


Specialized Rockhopper, and I'm reporting your post.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

KingCrimson said:


> Specialized Rockhopper, and I'm reporting your post.


What are you reporting my post for?


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## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

It's odd how you started this thread wondering what the problem was, everyone talked about it, and you spontaneously turned into a Moto fanboy. 

I don't know, I think some of your posts are BS, but I don't know which ones exactly.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

KingCrimson said:


> Specialized Rockhopper, and I'm reporting your post.


For $800 on either:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FRAME M4 manipulated alloy frame, butted ORE DT, 2 piece forged adjustable dropouts, disc only 
FORK RockShox Dart 3 SL, for 29" wheel, 80mm, 28.6mm Cr-Mo stanchions and alloy steerer, magnesium lower, coil spring, reb. adj. w/ LO and preload adj. 
HEADSET 1 1/8" threadless 
STEM Specialized 3D forged alloy, four bolt, 31.8mm, 7 degree rise 
HANDLEBARS Specialized alloy 31.8mm XC rise, 640mm wide, 8 degree back, 8 degree up sweep 
TAPE/GRIPS Specialized Enduro, dual density Kraton 
FRONT BRAKE Avid BB-5, mechanical disc, 6" G2 Clean Sweep rotor 
REAR BRAKE Avid BB-5, mechanical disc, 6" G2 Clean Sweep rotor 
BRAKE LEVERS Avid FR-5 
FRONT DERAILLEUR Shimano Altus FD-M310-6, top swing, 34.9mm clamp 
REAR DERAILLEUR Shimano Alivio RD-M410 
SHIFT LEVERS Shimano Acera SL-MC40 
CASSETTE FREEWHEEL SRAM PG-830, 8-speed, 11-32t 
CHAIN KMC X8, 1/2" x 3/32" w/ reusable Missing Link 
CRANKSET Shimano FC-M341-8, replaceable rings, Octalink Spline 
CHAINRINGS 42S/32S/22S 
BOTTOM BRACKET Shimano BB-ES25, Octalink spline, cartridge bearing, 68 x 126mm for 50mm chainline 
PEDALS Steel cage, composite body, 9/16" 
RIMS Specialized/Alex RHD 29, double wall, for disc brakes 
FRONT HUB Specialized Hi Lo disc, 28h, CNC flange and disc mount, polished races, alloy QR 
REAR HUB Specialized Hi Lo disc, cassette, 32h, CNC flanges and disc mount, polished races, alloy QR 
SPOKES 1.8mm (15g) stainless, alloy nipples 
FRONT TIRE Specialized Fast Trak Sport, 29x2.0", 60TPI, wire bead 
REAR TIRE Specialized Fast Trak Sport, 29x2.0", 60TPI, wire bead 
TUBES Specialized schraeder valve 
SADDLE Specialized XC, kevlar sides, front and rear bumpers, 143mm width 
SEAT POST Specialized alloy, two bolt micro adjust head, 30.9mm 
SEAT BINDER Specialized alloy w/ QR, brass washer 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Frame MOTO29X Aluminum with TrailTuned PowerStay Design, DualProfile Downtube with reinforced Gusset, replaceable rear derailleur hanger, 2x H2O bosses 
Fork RockShox TORA RS318 WITH LOCKOUT, 100mm travel, Adjustable Rebound, SoloAir 
Crankset TruVativ FireX 22/32/44T with integrated GXP BB 
Bottom Bracket TruVativ GXP external bearing 
Pedals Mountain Platform 
Front Derailleur Shimano Deore 
Rear Derailleur Shimano XT long cage 
Shifters Shimano LX Mega-9 Rapid Fire 27 speed trigger shift 
Cassette/Freewheel Shimano HG cassette 9 speed 11-32T 
Chain Z9000 super narrow 9 speed 
Hubs Gravity by Formula Sealed Bearing Disc with Quick Release 
Spokes Double Butted Stainless steel 
Rims WTB FX28 Disc Black anodized Aluminum 
Tires WTB MotoRaptor 29x2.1 
Brakes Avid Juicy 3 Hydraulic Disc front and rear, 185mm rotor 
Brake Levers Avid Juicy 3 for Disc Brake 
Headset FSA or CaneCreek (NoChoice) Sealed Bearing threadless 1 1/8 in 
Handlebar Black Finish Aluminum 6061 T6 
Stem Black Finish Aluminum threadless 
Tape/Grip WTB DualCompound 
Saddle WTB SpeedV 
Seat Post Black Finish Aluminum Mountain 27.2mm 
Seat Post Clamp Super Light Alloy with Quick Release

~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~

both of these are fun high grade bikes: I like having the tora, Juciys, external BB and Deore/LX/XT - but that's me
it is great that there are lots of choices in 29ers and that the selection is growing every year [I know we are introducing 3 additional 29ers this fall & winter]

I really like the 29er catagory


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

Mike, I love BD, I love the concept of it all, and I think you really pump out bikes in a nice manner, and you're a great guy for trying to develop customer relations on a forum. 

However, enough is enough, and you need to stop using MTBR for free advertising. Nobody would have issues with you as those demonstrated in this thread if you simply purchased MTBR banner advertising. Sponsor a forum, support MTBR, and get your products out there in a more legitimate fashion!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

KingCrimson said:


> Mike, I love BD, I love the concept of it all, and I think you really pump out bikes in a nice manner, and you're a great guy for trying to develop customer relations on a forum.
> 
> However, enough is enough, and you need to stop using MTBR for free advertising. Nobody would have issues with you as those demonstrated in this thread if you simply purchased MTBR banner advertising. Sponsor a forum, support MTBR, and get your products out there in a more legitimate fashion!


Sorry if you misunderstood something. I don't know Mike, I don't work for bikes direct or Motobecane.I just asked a question. And the specialized rockhopper is not as good as the Fantom29 Pro.


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

Zarr, I didn't report you for being Mike, or working for BD, or anything of that sort.

I reported you for spam. You're just posting irrelevant things to keep a thread going, that in all honesty, should be locked.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

zarr said:


> Sorry if you misunderstood something. I don't know Mike, I don't work for bikes direct or Motobecane.I just asked a question. And the specialized rockhopper is not as good as the Fantom29 Pro. Fig-a-deal me Ockee?


If you knew the answer, why did you start the thread?
If you knew the answer, why did you ask the question?
If you know so much, why do you act as if you know nothing?

Alot of things dont add up about your posts in this thread - to be perfectly honest it adds up to a troll in my eyes.

If you read the thread (which you claimed earlier that you had) you should know that value IS NOT just about initial cost - you have alot of other things to factor in where other bikes will catch up (especially if you dont work on your bikes yourself). 
You would also understand that frames are not all built evenly, and different geometries suit different riders.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> If you knew the answer, why did you start the thread?
> If you knew the answer, why did you ask the question?
> If you know so much, why do you act as if you know nothing?
> 
> ...


I asked one question and you're saying I know so much. Once again. I just asked a question.that's all. OK?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

KingCrimson said:


> Mike, I love BD, I love the concept of it all, and I think you really pump out bikes in a nice manner, and you're a great guy for trying to develop customer relations on a forum.
> 
> However, enough is enough, and you need to stop using MTBR for free advertising. Nobody would have issues with you as those demonstrated in this thread if you simply purchased MTBR banner advertising. Sponsor a forum, support MTBR, and get your products out there in a more legitimate fashion!


Thank you for your support
and I find my self this thread has gone on beyond its useful life

However, it is hard for me to not respond when some posts are made that are misleading or false

BTW, there is no actual adverstising value in a thread like this for several reasons - mainly that the traffic count is too low; but also that most the readers already are aware of us.

We do support consumer reveiw as you might know
and we intend to increase that in 2009 with some ads on others sites we have.

I think the forums are very interesting and useful; but some topics do get beaten to death.

Someone start a new thread on which material is best for a hardtail or which presidental canidate would be best for cycling or can an internal geared hub ATB be suitable for racing.
I want in on those!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Thank you for your support
> and I find my self this thread has gone on beyond its useful life
> 
> However, it is hard for me to not respond when some posts are made that are misleading or false
> ...


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> BTW, there is no actual adverstising value in a thread like this for several reasons - mainly that the traffic count is too low; but also that most the readers already are aware of us.


yeah, you are most definitely trying to advertise by posting direct links and hawking your product and posting direct bike to bike specs with competitor's models. you're not fooling anyone but the most obtuse by denying it or trying to spin it. :nono:

but the reason there is little actual advertising value in the thread is because of how you are responding to people who are expressing concerns with their experience with you. you have done much in this thread to perpetuate the reputation of sub par customer service, and as many, many people have pointed out sometimes that will override a really good deal on a bike.

your new line looks good. no one can legitimately say otherwise. but getting on a thread where people are expressing concerns and reporting negative experiences with your company and trying to spin it or convince people they are wrong will win you few new customers.

perhaps if your customer service was better you could increase your per item profit margin by charging a bit more. as it is it seems lots of people are willing to buy your product because it is inexpensive enough that if they have a problem and you tell them to get f**ked they aren't out too much going ahead and covering the cost to fix it. that's not subjective, i've actually heard people say that.

best of luck to you.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

KingCrimson said:


> Zarr, I didn't report you for being Mike, or working for BD, or anything of that sort.
> 
> I reported you for spam. You're just posting irrelevant things to keep a thread going, that in all honesty, should be locked.


You are entitled to your own opinion. :thumbsup:


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

monogod said:


> your new line looks good. no one can legitimately say otherwise. but getting on a thread where people are expressing concerns and reporting negative experiences with your company and trying to spin it or convince people they are wrong will win you few new customers.
> 
> perhaps if your customer service was better you could increase your per item profit margin by charging a bit more. as it is it seems lots of people are willing to buy your product because it is inexpensive enough that if they have a problem and you tell them to get f**ked they aren't out too much going ahead and covering the cost to fix it. that's not subjective, i've actually heard people say that.
> 
> best of luck to you.


Thanks and I understand your comments completely. I hope you understand that every company no matter how well run has some unhappy customers. We all try to keep that to a minimum; but it happens. I am a type of car nut and have several and buy a new one every year; I like BMW - but I am so mad at them I will never buy another one. I am sure they feel they are doing a professional job; but with me in the last 3 I have had it was not happy. Sometimes you have to move on; both the buyer and the seller.

Here is a response I liked that sums up the attitude of many of our highend buyers.: posted on another forum in a thread where the OP was unhappy with our communication:

*"I've bought two bikes from BikesDirect. Both got to me in a timely manner. I'd be a little upset if If I were in your situation. However, I understand Mike's need to keep his overhead low. Paying employees to take customer service calls? That would be a nightmare and would also drive his prices up. I like having at least one company willing to do business a bit unconventionally in order to keep prices down. I'm looking at the new Motobecane Fantom Team Ti at $1,795 but certainly couldn't afford to look at it for $2,995 or more. I've seen a few posts from folks who have had bad experiences with BD however, I also understand that people who have good experiences usually just get on their bike and ride, not bothering to post anything in the forums. I'm sure the good experiences outnumber the bad by about 250 to 1. If I were in Vegas, I'd take those odds for the opportunity to turn $1,795 into 3 or $4,000, lol. (Especially if the blackjack dealer could be found in the forums to help me get back the money I'd lost) "*

We are trying our best to deliver great products at great prices; but [a] we will never make every customer happy no matter what we do and * there are lots of posters with an interest in the LBS model that post false things about us and other online sellers.

I have discussed the advisability of posting on public forums with many inside the industry. Most manufacturers and large sellers do not think it makes sense; many think I am off my rocker; but I am always trying to learn things and this is one good way to do it.

Thanks*


----------



## Polypro (Aug 5, 2008)

Newb here,

I bought a Motobecane from BD *because of this thread*...BD's answers sounded exactly like what I know to be true in the SCUBA industry (Name brand modular valve system .vs online MVS...same Italian factory - BIG price difference. Regulators and BC's...same deal). Fantom 29Pro arrived Friday, 4 days after purchase, in great shape. Put it together yesterday and rode an abandoned motocross track today. Awesome sport, glad I got into it. $795 was over my budget, but because of my size I needed the Tora 318...I feel I got good parts for the price and wouldn't be riding otherwise. I *am* mechanically inclined, and we'll see if the savings was worth it if I need warranty service...but for now I'm happy.

P


----------



## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> but I am always trying to learn things and this is one good way to do it.
> 
> Thanks


You are selling, and not learning.


----------



## dieselcruiserhead (Aug 3, 2007)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> You are selling, and not learning.


I love this guy.. I love the listing of bikes in your sig. I'm sure someone else has said it, holy POT MEET KETTLE from the bikes you choose to purchase.

Anyway, I didn't get a chance to read all the rambling on this thread but I think you are in a key market and more power to you. Anyone who thinks we are not in a global market had their heads genuinely buried in the sand. I like, enjoy, and appreciate the market you are in (despite that I personally ride bikes and as many components as possible made in the USA (Ventana, White Brothers forks). But I recommend Bike Direct often and it gets more people on bikes which is always better. Everyone has their budgets and nothing wrong with the bikes direct approach IMO at all...


----------



## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

dieselcruiserhead said:


> I love this guy.. I love the listing of bikes in your sig. I'm sure someone else has said it, holy POT MEET KETTLE from the bikes you choose to purchase.


Not sure what your trying to say here, you think that Giant, and Kona are equivalent to Motobecane? I have no experience with Zion though I do understand their bikes to be fairly budget conscious.



dieselcruiserhead said:


> Anyway, I didn't get a chance to read all the rambling on this thread but I think you are in a key market and more power to you. Anyone who thinks we are not in a global market had their heads genuinely buried in the sand. I like, enjoy, and appreciate the market you are in (despite that I personally ride bikes and as many components as possible made in the USA (Ventana, White Brothers forks). But I recommend Bike Direct often and it gets more people on bikes which is always better. Everyone has their budgets and nothing wrong with the bikes direct approach IMO at all...


For the most part I understand and agree with what your saying. Some of us just feel that it's important a consumer understands what they are getting themselves into when buying an internet bargain brand. It's not the same as purchasing a bike from a bike shop which may not be the best way to get introduced to the sport.


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## dieselcruiserhead (Aug 3, 2007)

The similarity is that they are overseas made from either similar factories (or the same) or even a similar approach. There may have been more people compensated in the process (distributor and/or LBS) and that is really the only difference I see particularly in their more affordable lines. We have a Giant that I bought for my finacee that she hardly uses. I lucked out because it was cheap used, but it is 32lbs for a full suspension, has about cheaper MotoBecane components and quality or worse, and would have been hundreds more at the store. That said it is a perfectly fine bike and I am totally comfortable with her riding it. 

Motobecane will never replace the LBS, and serve the role they serve. Motobecane is its own market. Really other than "1932" I don't see anything wrong with it.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> You are selling, and not learning.
> 
> 
> dieselcruiserhead said:
> ...


captain obvious wishes to point out that noobi-wan is not listing the bikes in his sig for sale, nor is he an internet bike seller hawking his wares in this thread as bikesdirect is clearly and blatantly doing.

always best to read twice before responding/posting once. :thumbsup:


----------



## dieselcruiserhead (Aug 3, 2007)

I saw him mentioning his bikes as well. The thread is about Bikes Direct. People bring it and I think its completely within his right to go through some of particularly some of his quality options that do counter act whatever opinions the negatrons have about his bikes that are again made in a nearly idential process as, for example, the bikes in Noobi's sig. Does not bother me at all, "dude..." :thumbsup:


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## _I_ (Jun 23, 2007)

I think it's funny how some of you are whining. Sell a bike for less because the customer is deciding they don't need the same level, nor any actually unless it's defective, of customer service. Given the customer the choice to pay less to do without a warranty if they CHOOSE to do so, then turn around and still accomdate them if they have a CF (WTF are we talking about CF for in a MTB forum???) that they probably broke in an accident and need to replace affordably.

Over the years I've bought a lot of stuff, I'd have welcomed the opportunity to pay a significant % less, then have had to pay out of pocket later if there were any problems. It would've saved me tons of money because most things either don't break or I can DIY to fix the item. So long as the product was working when received, no sign of a fault at that point then give me the savings so long as there was due diligence in making it be reasonable quality as described.

If you don't like that, by all means go to your LBS instead. Choice really IS good.

On the other hand, if I bought a CF bike w/o frame warranty and hadn't bothered to search out and read the warranty, I'd be upset later to find it didn't have one so the key issue to me would be that the warranty is very prominently displayed, possibly it ought to be manditory for a customer to agree to it in an active way when making the purchase. I'd feel this way because we tend to assume something will have a warranty and that it would be prominently displayed when something can be so significant to _some_ customers.

So to me the key is knowing what you are getting, that if you know then you can make an informed choice about how much value these things have.

As for some bike being advertised as comparable to one costing 3 times more when it probably isn't... Who cares? Surely anyone looking to spend a few hundred dollars or more will see that and research the other bike as well as several more models, it's only the ignorant impulse buyers that go to Walmart and get the $100 special without spending any time on researching their options.

Regardling where a frame is made, "Made" can mean a few different things and a sticker on the frame means little. Companies often plan on how they're sourcing, manufacturing, assembling and so forth to end up with a favorable country's sticker on their product. Where those expensive sunglasses you own really made in Italy? Probably not the frames or lens unless you paid an arm and a leg and sometimes not even then.

I've never bought a bike from BikesDirect, but it seems to me I've heard of a lot more happy customers than those who end up having a problem that wasn't resolved, and that on the internet where those with problems always raise an order of magnitude more stink about things.

IMO, it's psychological to many of you, not being able to accept that the things you valued and paid more for may not be so important to someone else.

Mike does seem to have a bit of a promotional slant but what would you expect when you're enthusiastic about your business and new products? I don't think we have to agree with him on all things but it was good to get some perspective straight from the horse's mouth, then we can just agree to disagree instead of trying to twist things around.

Customer service is not all that important on something as simple as a bike so long as they inspect it before shipping it and take it back if it arrives in a broken-defective state. Fact is, most people don't tear up their bike in a way that would be covered under the typical warranty elsewhere.


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## rearviewmirror (Jun 14, 2006)

What a bunch of wankers.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

KingCrimson said:


> I reported you for spam. You're just posting irrelevant things to keep a thread going, that in all honesty, should be locked.


That's not spam. And if I red this thread correctly, he is not the only one keeping it going, and plenty of posters here are guilty of posting drivel.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

kapusta said:


> That's not spam. And if I red this thread correctly, he is not the only one keeping it going, and plenty of posters here are guilty of posting drivel.


Thank You.


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

kapusta said:


> That's not spam. And if I red this thread correctly, he is not the only one keeping it going, and plenty of posters here are guilty of posting drivel.


I'll agree, we're all keeping a silly thread going..

But his was an irrelevant post, and it sounded WAY too much like he was trying to be like mike.

/hypocrit post


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

KingCrimson said:


> I'll agree, we're all keeping a silly thread going..
> 
> But his was an irrelevant post, and it sounded WAY too much like he was trying to be like mike.
> 
> /hypocrit post


Thank You very much for your input on this thread. Please feel free to post your replies on any threads that I started or will start in the future. I value your opinions just as much as anyone's, whether I agree with them or not. Have a nice day.---zarr ---P.S.- I saw King Crimson at a concert in New York in 1970 at the Academy of Music in Manhattan. Great Group !


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## Husqvarna (Jul 30, 2007)

zarr said:


> I am trying to understand why Motobecane is thought of by some as the lower rung of the MTB ladder.Is it a status thing? That people of a particular income level wouldn't ride one because of their positions in society? Or is it that thet are just not good bikes? How do Motos compare to big name bikes? Are they just as good? Do they provide people with not a lot of money to spend with a great deal? If that's the case, why aren't they more recommended?


I have MOTOBCANE hardtail. The name should be "MOTOBACON" because it is a heavy SOB!!!!!


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

zarr said:


> I saw King Crimson at a concert in New York in 1970 at the Academy of Music in Manhattan. Great Group !


I can't believe Fripp is STILL at it. You think he might get kinda tired after 40 years..

They were in the States a few months back, nowhere near here though


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

KingCrimson said:


> I can't believe Fripp is STILL at it. You think he might get kinda tired after 40 years..
> 
> They were in the States a few months back, nowhere near here though


Procol Harum, King Crimsom,and Gypsy all on the same ticket for about $5.00 a pop. The good old days. :thumbsup: I think Spooky Tooth was there too. (my memory is fading slightly over the years-sorry...)  ...


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## Windsorcycle (Jun 6, 2008)

Ive read most of this thread and man, lighten up guys. Heres the true answer to this whole thread. If you own a motobocane or an ibex or a windsor you are going to brag about the bargain you got and the great components. With a Gary Fisher ,trek or some other big label bike you are going to boast about your hydroformed tubes and your exotic metals for $3000. Honestly though if you want to get a good first mountain bike your going to want to get a bikesdirectbike. Now all you bigshots who need a super light Gary Fisher roscoe for a months paycheck, get it in the end your supporting the bike industry So everyone wins?Right? But with the most bias I can muster up, considering the only real mountain bike I've owned is a windsor. I shall dare say "GARY FISHER CAN SUCK MY BALLS!!!!'


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

Windsorcycle said:


> If you own a motobocane or an ibex or a windsor you are going to brag about the bargain you got and the great components. With a Gary Fisher ,trek or some other big label bike you are going to boast about your hydroformed tubes and your exotic metals for $3000.


A valid point - though its more than just hydroforming and exotic materials that make more expensive bikes special - there are subtleties in design and ride which make them better to ride.
I (and many others) would rather have the better bike than the better deal, but I care what im riding and I can tell the difference (and am prepared to play for it), equally some people are more bothered by value and thats just fine too.
Riding fullsus also makes the difference more important, and justifies the more expensive brands who produce better (depite Mike's dubious assertion that design isnt important) designed bikes which ride better.



Windsorcycle said:


> Honestly though if you want to get a good first mountain bike your going to want to get a bikesdirectbike.


I dont think you really have been reading this thread.
If you have, you obviously dont care to read valid points when theyre made.

There are arguments for and against buying online in general and bikesdirect in particular - which way those arguments stack up depends alot on the customer (specifically, which arguments matter most to the specfic customer).



Windsorcycle said:


> Now all you bigshots who need a super light Gary Fisher roscoe for a months paycheck, get it in the end your supporting the bike industry So everyone wins?Right? But with the most bias I can muster up, considering the only real mountain bike I've owned is a windsor. I shall dare say "GARY FISHER CAN SUCK MY BALLS!!!!'


I dont think its fair to make such statements when you've never owned a high quality fullsus bike and ridden it on a regular basis.
If all you have owned is a deore level bike built up on a fairly average (catalogue?) frame - how can you possibly argue with people spending alot more money than you did (or perhaps more than the most you could justify) - if you dont have the experience, you cant understand.
Why shouldnt people buy bikes which have been painstakingly designed and tweaked to make them as good as possible, bikes who's entire existance depends on performance, because they cannot play the value card?

The fact is - you just cant say that at all. 
If someone has legitimate reasons to dislike a company or dealer, they wont buy from them. 
In this thread people post/ed their gripes with Mike and BD - its a perfect oppertunity for him to see where he gets this rep from and potentially do something about it. Instead, he's compounded the problem by trying to discredit them (in places with false arguments), and spinning everything into a sales pitch. I think that says alot about why his company has a bad reputation here. I honestly hope he can see that and do something about it - but if the attitude in the thread is anything to go by, I shalln't expect too much.

Sure. You know what you're talking about dont you


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

EnglishT said:


> .
> 
> The fact is - you just cant say that at all.
> If someone has legitimate reasons to dislike a company or dealer, they wont buy from them.
> ...


Every company has some potentail customers and some past customers that have 'reasons to dislike them'. This is the nature of business. We all try to keep that to a minimum; but understand that the reason no company has zero detractors is that it is not possible if you want to stay in business.

About 3 years ago I started posting on roadbikereveiw and I found several things:
1 - some posters hated us because they love the LBS so much
2 - others loved us due to the value and selection we offer
3 - some had ideas on how we should redesign our business model.

On those that had ideas on redesigning or modifying our business; I listened and tried to find out why.Sometimes I challedged ideas. And as a result I made some changes. Other changes that some posters suggested would have destroyed the company [those I did not do}. Many suggestions would have increased prices for all our customers [those I did not do]. Some suggestions I started work on - but they took a year to do.

So it is wrong to say I do not listen to ideas
However, if someone is a one-sided hater; I do not think to much about their post.
Let me give you an example: lots of talk here about warranty: if someone points out changes they think might be nice; of course, I think about that. If on the other side; someone posts that our warranty is not as good as the industry standard AND does not point out that we cover components for life that many cover for a only year or that we cover rigid forks for life when some sellers only cover them for 5 years; then the poster is just being a one-sided basher {which any thoughtful reader can spot}.

In addition, if someone likes the LBS model a lot; they may never see the plus to our distribution method.

Example: Last defect I saw was a name-brand carbon fiber seatpost that was broken [might have been due to something other than a defect - but we called it as defect]. Customer sent us a photo by e-mail. Bike was 3 years old. With many brands the post would be out of warranty period. But we do not have a time limit on component defects. So we mailed the customer a new post [priority] with a label to mail back old one. Simple. But with a LBS the transporttion to go check to see if it is covered could have been $50 or more for many people. {example - closest Kona dealer to me is 70 miles away - at least 1.5 hours each way}.

Those that only point out the negatives of any business do not carry a lot of weight with thoughtful readers; as all business have plus & minuses. We are really good on many things, fair on some, and poor on a few. I would say that is true for every seller I know of in the bike industry. Probably true in all industries.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> lots of talk here about warranty: if someone points out changes they think might be nice; of course, I think about that. If on the other side; someone posts that our warranty is not as good as the industry standard AND does not point out that we cover components for life that many cover for a only year or that we cover rigid forks for life when some sellers only cover them for 5 years; then the poster is just being a one-sided basher {which any thoughtful reader can spot}.


While a nice gesture, lifetime warrenty on component defects is a little silly. A 5 year warrenty (or even 3) will cover probably 99%+ of true manufacturer defects. 
I doubt the lifetime warrenty will cost you considerably more than a 3 or 5 would for that reason - correct me if im wrong ofc. It just seems to be mostly for show (no offense) because as said, if defect doesnt show up for 5 years, it probably wasnt a defect in the first place.

If you want an example of a warrenty widely regarded as fantastic, and given alot of respect See Here
That warrenty policy is widely regarded as great.
Ofcourse repuation helps with that, but a warrenty transferrable with original receipt (increased resale value), and the crash replacement policy seems truly great.

I do agree that 100% hate is usually kinda worthless - but there can be useful information even among that if you look hard enough.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

EnglishT said:


> While a nice gesture, lifetime warrenty on component defects is a little silly. A 5 year warrenty (or even 3) will cover probably 99%+ of true manufacturer defects.
> I doubt the lifetime warrenty will cost you considerably more than a 3 or 5 would for that reason - correct me if im wrong ofc. It just seems to be mostly for show (no offense) because as said, if defect doesnt show up for 5 years, it probably wasnt a defect in the first place.
> 
> If you want an example of a warrenty widely regarded as fantastic, and given alot of respect See Here
> ...


I think Turner does a nice job; however, in my opinion their warranty is not as good as ours. Certainly it is shorter in the case of all mountain, cyclo cross, comfort, hybrid, cafe, and track bikes we sell.

Here is an example where noone seems to be jumping on the bike maker:
"During this warranty period, XXXX shall repair or replace, at its sole option, the bicycle frame if XXXX determines the frame is defective and subject to this limited warranty. The original owner shall pay all labor and shipping charges connected with the repair or replacement of the bicycle frame." AND this maker really has only a 1 year warranty on the bike and a 'limited' 4 year warranty on frame. I am not saying that is bad - just not as good as ours.

I think if most situations are taken into account: our warranty gives the typical customer more coverage than any other I know of AND certainly more than the industry standard.

The funny thing about this discussion is that it mainly a red Herring; as you point out - there are almost zero manufacturing defects in the high grade bike business to start with, Even low-end bikes at mass merchants have very few manufacturing defects. The bicycle industry has most things very well dailed in before they are produced. And QC is rather good - fantastic in Japan & Taiwan and even very very good in China.

As I have stated before and anyone I know in the industry will agree; defects are extremely rare. And the vast majority of 'warranty' covered in the industry is for customer relations reason; not due to an actual defect being found. This is just part of the cost of doing business as all bike companies will tell you.


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## Windsorcycle (Jun 6, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> The fact is - you just cant say that at all.
> If someone has legitimate reasons to dislike a company or dealer, they wont buy from them.
> In this thread people post/ed their gripes with Mike and BD - its a perfect oppertunity for him to see where he gets this rep from and potentially do something about it. Instead, he's compounded the problem by trying to discredit them (in places with false arguments), and spinning everything into a sales pitch. I think that says alot about why his company has a bad reputation here. I honestly hope he can see that and do something about it - but if the attitude in the thread is anything to go by, I shalln't expect too much.
> 
> Sure. You know what you're talking about dont you


The end of my post was a joke no one would actually say something like that leading up to a one sided statement. Just wondering, have you ever owned windsor or an ibex? Plus all those things that make it a better ride are pretty much a joke. I looked at the gary fisher website and at the windsor website and i compared the geometry of 2 hardtail bikes. Guess what, the geometry was almost exactly alike. The bikes were in the same price range and the windsor had the better components by a long shot. Plus if you really mountain biked a lot with a motobocane or ibex you would be just as comfortable. I ride my bike and it doesnt hinder my ability to climb hills faster than any other biker with a gary fisher. Plus my bike isn't deore level it has all Xt components. hubs, derailleurs, shifters, and etc. All for about 650. What can you get for 650 with a gary fisher? A special frame and department store components. In the end its just personal preferance, good frame and mediocre components or mediocre frame and good components, just go out and have fun:thumbsup:


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

Windsorcycle said:


> The end of my post was a joke no one would actually say something like that leading up to a one sided statement. Just wondering, have you ever owned windsor or an ibex? Plus all those things that make it a better ride are pretty much a joke. I looked at the gary fisher website and at the windsor website and i compared the geometry of 2 hardtail bikes. Guess what, the geometry was almost exactly alike. The bikes were in the same price range and the windsor had the better components by a long shot. Plus if you really mountain biked a lot with a motobocane or ibex you would be just as comfortable. I ride my bike and it doesnt hinder my ability to climb hills faster than any other biker with a gary fisher. Plus my bike isn't deore level it has all Xt components. hubs, derailleurs, shifters, and etc. All for about 650. What can you get for 650 with a gary fisher? A special frame and department store components. In the end its just personal preferance, good frame and mediocre components or mediocre frame and good components, just go out and have fun:thumbsup:


The quality and importance of the frame go a little beyond just geometry.
Yes geometry matters (alot) but so does weight, flex (in the right ways) - its hard to describe but the feel is definately very different.
Also - I dont know what fisher bikes you were looking at, but fisher geometry is usually VERY different (genesis) to traditional bike geometry - so I'm really not sure you know what youre talking about (or what youre comparing to what), no offense..

Also (though this is a correction not really related to the thread) - to say something has XT level componentry, the components in general would need to be equivalent standard to XT components.
Your bike (from your sig - according to BD) is specced with ONE XT component, the rear mech. The front mech and shifters are deore, the brakes are tektro mechanicals (imo, inferior to deore mech brakes) etc. To me, thats a deore level bike - it takes more than one component to make it that spec level.

I digress. The point is, that it all depends what your priorities are. I rarely leave the components alone and am always changing them out myself - partially for that reason the qualities of the frame matter more to me than the components that come stock on it.

Yes, at the end of the day what matters most is that we are both riding and enjoying it. We clearly have different perceptions and levels of care where value is concerned which is why the bike industry is able to have such variations within itself. 
There have been some good points made in this thread, there has been some (in places warrented, in others not) bashing going on. Overall i think buying online only has its advantages if you do all your own work - and its fair to say that alot of people dont realise how many extra costs they might incur from buying that way (that said, most of them dont visit forums like these to be told that).
Well, good dirt to you.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> I think if most situations are taken into account: our warranty gives the typical customer more coverage than any other I know of AND certainly more than the industry standard.


Really?

3+ years down the road I cracked my turner frame, and they gave me a new mainframe and rockers. Turner also extends the original warrenty to anyone who has the original reciept (so it can be sold). So you're telling me that you do these things?


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## Windsorcycle (Jun 6, 2008)

If you spend enough time riding ANY bike you will get used to it and be just as efficient of a rider as ever so as much as you think geometry matters it really doesn't make too much of a differance. The most important part of geometry is the head tube angle and on my windsor it is the same as the gary fisher I compared to which was the g2.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

Windsorcycle said:


> If you spend enough time riding ANY bike you will get used to it and be just as efficient of a rider as ever so as much as you think geometry matters it really doesn't make too much of a differance. The most important part of geometry is the head tube angle and on my windsor it is the same as the gary fisher I compared to which was the g2.


Well... theres alot wrong with that statement. I dont even know where to start.

Geometry is very important indeed, g2 is a different style, but it will either suit or it wont. Even more traditional geometries will have subtle differences which will affect the rider.

Differences in geometry can and do lead to bikes fitting better than others - ok a small difference will be a small difference, but its still there. Headtube angle is but one of several important factors.

Its hard to understand these things without riding bikes that are different. If you've only really owned/run one bike (your windsor) and I believe you said earlier - then its gonna be hard for you to truly understand it, because experience is important in understanding this.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Windsorcycle said:


> If you spend enough time riding ANY bike you will get used to it and be just as efficient of a rider as ever so as much as you think geometry matters it really doesn't make too much of a differance. The most important part of geometry is the head tube angle and on my windsor it is the same as the gary fisher I compared to which was the g2.


no offense, dude, but by your own admission you do not have the experience on a variety of bikes to make this claim.

ride enough bikes and you will find that even minute differences in geometry can make or break the bike. sure, spend enough time on a bike and one can get used to it but that doesn't mean that the limitations or pitfalls of a particular geometry will go away. it means you get used to it. thats all.

so contrary to your erroneous assertion, geometry absolutely makes a difference. you'll learn basics like these as your involvement with the sport deepens over time.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Windsorcycle said:


> If you spend enough time riding ANY bike you will get used to it and be just as efficient of a rider as ever so as much as you think geometry matters it really doesn't make too much of a differance. The most important part of geometry is the head tube angle and on my windsor it is the same as the gary fisher I compared to which was the g2.


Like the others have said, head angle is just one factor. Effective top tube makes just as big of a difference, though in a very different way. Further, seat tube angle has an effect on the effective top tube length. Bottom bracket height makes a real difference, and not just in terms of smacking your pedals, and the difference gets more pronounced as the travel increases. Chainstay length makes a difference, especially when riding a single speed.

Plus, you need to know what axle-to-crown length was used to calculate the head angle for it even to be very accurate. Few companies give you that info, and I don't believe Windsor or Motobecane are among them.

All that said, I don't know that the geo of the Motobecanes or Windsors are any worse other typical offerings from the other bike companies. I would assume they just copy what is popular.


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## _I_ (Jun 23, 2007)

kapusta said:


> Few companies give you that info, and I don't believe Windsor or Motobecane are among them.
> 
> All that said, I don't know that the geo of the Motobecanes or Windsors are any worse other typical offerings from the other bike companies. I would assume they just copy what is popular.


On their website off the individual product pages there's a link at the top to the geometry measurements.

I'd tend to agree that they just copy what they feel is the best compromise that would suit most people, and to some it may be exactly what they want but certainly not to everyone.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

> On their website off the individual product pages there's a link at the top to the geometry measurements.


I didn't mean they did not give geometry measurements. I meant they don't tell you how the head angle was measured.



> I'd tend to agree that they just copy what they feel is the best compromise that would suit most people, and to some it may be exactly what they want but certainly not to everyone.


I agree. That's true of any geometry.


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## Windsorcycle (Jun 6, 2008)

English i asked a while ago and still want to get a reply, have you ever owned a motobocane/ibex/windsor?


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

Why does it matter? Anything he's said doesn't require ever riding one of the bikes.

He was comparing geometry, and he never said "WINDSOR IS BAD"


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Windsorcycle said:


> English i asked a while ago and still want to get a reply, have you ever owned a motobocane/ibex/windsor?


wtf does that have to do with anything??? :skep:


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Windsorcycle said:


> ...the only real mountain bike I've owned is a windsor. I shall dare say "GARY FISHER CAN SUCK MY BALLS!!!!'


What about your Mom's Schwinn Sierra, you rode that for a couple of months :thumbsup: Last I heard you were looking to make into an SS 'cause yer Dad won't left you ride your nice MTB around the 'hood


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## Windsorcycle (Jun 6, 2008)

*Oh lawds*



pursuiter said:


> What about your Mom's Schwinn Sierra, you rode that for a couple of months :thumbsup: Last I heard you were looking to make into an SS 'cause yer Dad won't left you ride your nice MTB around the 'hood


Ive been caught by my dad looks like I'm in trouble considering i still live with him.:madman:


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## Jake Pay (Dec 27, 2006)

Oh Gawd, somebody get a gun............."They shoot horses, don't they"...........


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Hey, this thread is #3 in replies for the General forum. 50 more replies and it overtakes the legendary pot smoking thread for #2.

Not bad advertising for BD.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

kapusta said:


> Hey, this thread is #3 in replies for the General forum. 50 more replies and it overtakes the legendary pot smoking thread for #2.
> 
> Not bad advertising for BD.


before i say anything, I just want to say I am not spamming and I don't work for bikes direct. OK. Now. This is meant to be a joke. ...It seems that it's just beginning too. :eekster: !    ---zarr


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## Phknlwyr (Jan 15, 2004)

Windsorcycle said:


> Ive read most of this thread and man, lighten up guys. Heres the true answer to this whole thread. If you own a motobocane or an ibex or a windsor you are going to brag about the bargain you got and the great components. With a Gary Fisher ,trek or some other big label bike you are going to boast about your hydroformed tubes and your exotic metals for $3000. Honestly though if you want to get a good first mountain bike your going to want to get a bikesdirectbike. Now all you bigshots who need a super light Gary Fisher roscoe for a months paycheck, get it in the end your supporting the bike industry So everyone wins?Right? But with the most bias I can muster up, considering the only real mountain bike I've owned is a windsor. I shall dare say "GARY FISHER CAN SUCK MY BALLS!!!!'


Yes, but if, like me, you received the "racer's discount" on your Gary Fisher Hi-Fi Pro and only paid $1,300.00 for it, you can both brag about the materials AND the amazing bargain. So, lick the base, pal!


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## Roswell52 (Mar 25, 2008)

jelliott said:


> Holy crap! 13 pages and still no end in sight?! Be afraid, be very afraid.


+1 on that. Some of you folks need to get off the forum and go get laid. :thumbsup:


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## rearviewmirror (Jun 14, 2006)

Forget BD, you can pick up this gem at the UT Austin bike auction! (I think BD sells this exact frame, if not, I'm sure it's similiar.)

https://www.utexas.edu/parking/transportation/biking/auction.html


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

I was just thinking about this thread and what was discussed here, and it dawned on me. Most of what was discussed was about Bikes Direct. What I really wanted to know about was Motobecane bikes- the bikes themselves. If Bikes Direct was not the only distributor. (or are they?), would folks think differently about them? I wonder....


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## Jacob Chestnut (Apr 19, 2007)

zarr said:


> I was just thinking about this thread and what was discussed here, and it dawned on me. Most of what was discussed was about Bikes Direct. What I really wanted to know about was Motobecane bikes- the bikes themselves. If Bikes Direct was not the only distributor. (or are they?), would folks think differently about them? I wonder....


Why don't you just let this thread die?

_Unsubscribed_


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Jacob Chestnut said:


> Why don't you just let this thread die?
> 
> _Unsubscribed_


Because he's either advertising for them, or is hoping to get some deal by bumping threads.


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## rutkiller (Jul 6, 2006)

rearviewmirror said:


> Forget BD, you can pick up this gem at the UT Austin bike auction! (I think BD sells this exact frame, if not, I'm sure it's similiar.)
> 
> https://www.utexas.edu/parking/transportation/biking/auction.html


Look at the chain on this baby.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Jacob Chestnut said:


> Why don't you just let this thread die?
> 
> _Unsubscribed_


Why? I'm just asking a question.


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## _I_ (Jun 23, 2007)

zarr said:


> Why? I'm just asking a question.


You're always going to find people with a dozen different reasons why anything connected to a lower cost bike, anything that results in cutting out a few middlemen or using less exotic parts or design is to be argued against.

That's why Motobecane sometimes gets a bad rap. People affiliated with other bike companies don't like the trend towards lower cost bikes. People affiliated with bike shops don't like losing profit when someone buys online and DIY repairs and adjustments. People who paid more don't like the reality that their money may've been well spent on what they bought instead, but that their subjective needs may be different. People can't accept that just because some lower priced things in life have really significant issues, other things are rather minor and depending on how costs are cut, all cost cutting is not bad. If it gets more people on a basic MTB instead of sticking with a $70 department store bike, that's a pretty good thing IMO.

Once these kinds of bias are introduced, people will tend to selectively look for negatives and play them up for all they can. Then they'll turn around and cite some feature on another product trying to imply that just because it "might" sometimes be a useful thing that everyone should want it. Unless a bike just falls apart, many of the things people suggest are important just aren't in reality, the fun is supposed to be about the ride, not what you're riding.

There's nothing wrong with the bikes themselves, so long as you recognize what you get for the money and decide for yourself if something else is a better match for *your* needs including the aspect of tune-ups, support, custom (Less common) designs, etc. They are a great value but nothing outstanding that would get people excited. That's what happens in a bike forum, you get people with experience on multiple bikes and they're bored, want something different instead of the plain vanilla bike.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

OK, OK I’ve skimmed past this thread countless times since its introduction 2 weeks ago without opening it. I finally opened it out of curiosity of why it has been going on for so long. And now I'm craving the last ten minutes my life back. It was considered a cheap bike in its day, why wouldn’t get a bad rap? It's closest competition was HUFFY. Attention WALLY WORLD here I come and you had better be open.


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## _I_ (Jun 23, 2007)

> It was considered a cheap bike in its day, why wouldn't get a bad rap? It's closest competition was HUFFY.


Motobecane != Huffy, ever. You might say the lowest end Motobecane started one notch above where Huffy's best stopped. At least in the US years ago the closest competition was probably Columbia, Schwinn, and Mongoose. What are the closest competitors today? That's probably the best way to end this thread by listing the closest alternatives. Giant, Ibex, Forge, Iron Horse, ?? not sure about sales numbers on those except Giant probably leads by quite a bit, then of course there's Trek, Specialized. >yawn< Who else?


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Heck, I just got one*



_I_ said:


> Motobecane != Huffy, ever. You might say the lowest end Motobecane started one notch above where Huffy's best stopped. At least in the US years ago the closest competition was probably Columbia, Schwinn, and Mongoose. What are the closest competitors today? That's probably the best way to end this thread by listing the closest alternatives. Giant, Ibex, Forge, Iron Horse, ?? not sure about sales numbers on those except Giant probably leads by quite a bit, then of course there's Trek, Specialized. >yawn< Who else?


I just built up a Fantom 29er. Its not exactly great bike building, but its not bad. It's your basic aluminum baseball bat... on par with the lower rent Giants, Treks, Jamis or Specialized Rockhoppers. Not much for manipulated tubing, butting or any stuff to shed weight. Its not a total whale, but not light either.

It rides pretty well, at least around the parking lot at work and in the street at home. I hope to get it on dirt tomorrow.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

This thread is interesting; but I have no idea why it has gone on so long.

And I have looked it over several times. This gets me to thinking about what our customers want from us.

And I have been looking over the 2009 new bike price lists from assorted brands. This gets me to thinking about what our customers want from us.

And I have been looking at what is available as ‘in-stock’ bikes in most cities. This gets me to thinking about what our customers want from us.

And I have reviewed many e-mails from customers and had a couple of meetings with my staff about customer requests. This gets me to thinking about what our customers want from us.

Here are things things we hear all the time:
Can not find my size in a bike shop. Can not find a road bike under about $1000. Can not find a full suspension bike under $1200. Can not find a steel bike. Can not find a Ti bike under $4000. Can not afford the price of new DuraAce. Can not see why a XTR bike should be over $3500. Can not find a road bike in a color my wife likes. Can not find a 29er under $1000. Can not find a XC race bike under 24 lbs. Can not find a cyclo cross bike under $1500. Can not find a high grade steel bike. Can not find a SS/FG in stock. Can not find a SS CX bike. Can not afford a Ti bike at my LBS. Can not find any touring bike in stock locally. Can not find a hardtail with hydraulic brakes in my price range. Can not find a pink track bike. And the list comes on and on and on.

I think if I keep my focus on what is important to our customers and on how many are not finding what they want in other channels of distribution; I will stay plenty busy.
Lately I have had lots of requests for upper end 29ers with Reba / XT level stuff; lots for Ti 29er; lots for FS 29ers, lots for Pro level Track, lots for ultra light road, lots for good deal on Red equipped bikes, lots for CF Tri bikes, lots for SS CX, lots for SS/FG in AL, lots for ultra light hardtails with X9 & X0, lots for freeride with 7x7 travel, lots for even lighter than 24 lb FS, lots for more aggressive Ti road, lots for steel ATBs, lots for commuter bikes with internal geared hubs, lots for tandems, lots for Campy road anything, and so on.

With today’s environment – customers want choices. Real choices in every way; design, size, color, price, service, image, etc. No one seller can offer all options to all customers. We are plenty busy filling in where others sellers can not or will not supply customers with what they desire. We get customer requests all the time that result in new bikes; and many times those bikes are very successful. 

Choices! Customers want them and I like them. It is a great thing that our industry has so many choices.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> This thread is interesting; but I have no idea why it has gone on so long.
> 
> And I have looked it over several times. This gets me to thinking about what our customers want from us.
> 
> ...


A fellow forum member mentioned to me in a conversation that he read about Motos in the forums, and not all of it was positive. So I wanted to know why. So I started this thread. That's how it started.---zarr


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## Gary H (Dec 16, 2006)

:madman:


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## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

> People who paid more don't like the reality that their money may've been well spent on what they bought instead, but that their subjective needs may be different.


I could care less if someone paid less or got a better deal on their bike. If someone is that petty then they deserve to be jealous and unhappy. I bought my trek 4300, 6000, and GF Cobia all from the same LBS and paid less than retail. They added on accessories at the time of purchase for pennies and they have top notch service. The most important thing though is it got my fat ass out from in front of the PC games into the hills riding and for me any bike would have suited that need as long as it didn't come from target or wally world. I love all of my bikes and wouldn't trade them for the world. I think I got great deals on all 3 of them and they rock.

Motobecane are decent bikes. A couple people I ride with own them and they seem to hold up well. I'd put them on par with my trek 4300 without the upgrades. The frame feels a little flexy for my taste, but whatever.

I also have a friend with a windsor cliff 29er. He loves the bike but has paid over $100 just getting service on the bike. Maybe he should have listened to me and bought a cobia from the LBS like I did since he knew he wasn't going to learn how to wrench.


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## retrobeast (Sep 27, 2006)

*Cobia?*

Why would someone get a bike with lower end components like the Cobia?
Moto Fantom Pro has some pretty good parts on it for the price compared to the Cobia from what I see.


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

retrobeast said:


> Why would someone get a bike with lower end components like the Cobia?
> Moto Fantom Pro has some pretty good parts on it for the price compared to the Cobia from what I see.


Did you read any of the thread?

:madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman: :madman:


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

KingCrimson said:


> Did you read any of the thread?
> 
> :


I read it all
and I have to ask why people buy a lot of bikes in shops that they do
But I do understand that everyone has their own priorities; and that is why the industry has so many choices.

and as I have said
I like Choices and I am glad cyclists have them

Anyone think cyclists should have fewer choices?


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## profile (May 20, 2008)

Worra pile o' shite. Entertaining shite....but shite all the same...:thumbsup:


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

Mike that post wasn't directed towards you.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

*Is this thread still going?*

I'm so lazy I cut and pasted my last comment in this thread and placed it down below. Just because thats all I have to say here.

OK, OK I've skimmed past this thread countless times since its introduction 2 weeks ago without opening it. I finally opened it out of curiosity of why it has been going on for so long. And now I'm craving the last ten minutes my life back. It was considered a cheap bike in its day, why wouldn't get a bad rap? It's closest competition was HUFFY. Attention WALLY WORLD here I come and you had better be open.


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

My dad worked in a Motobecane dealer back in the day. He says they were great bikes.

He had a Cilo with fully Campy GR. Can't say he didn't experience nice bikes.


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## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

> Why would someone get a bike with lower end components like the Cobia?
> Moto Fantom Pro has some pretty good parts on it for the price compared to the Cobia from what I see.


Because the frame on a cobia is solid now that they;ve fixed their weld problems. The frame also has a lifetime warranty. The warranty isn't just for shits and giggles like a motobecane warranty is (I suggest you go back and re-read their warranty). I have had one bike warranted by Trek and have friends who have had Gary Fisher bikes warranted for cracked frames and I trust their warranty system. When you weigh near 300 lbs and ride like you are 170 lbs on downhills you are going to crack a frame eventually. A good warranty on the frame is worth any extra cost. It will save me money in the long run.

I road about 12 different 29er's before I picked up my cobia.

I road redline, surly karate monkeys, cannondale, specialized, voodoos, soma's, etc. and out of all of them I liked the cobia the best. Yeah the components aren't amazing, but then again I didn't drop over 1k for my bike before adding any upgrades either. I also don't race so as long as it rides well, doesn't break all the damn time, and the frame stays welded together it works for me. I love my cobia and am glad I took it over the motobecane 29er I looked at online.

Components are great, but you can pimp out a **** bike all you want and it's still a **** bike if the frame is a baseball bat with no warranty. Then you are just painting a turd. **** that noise.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

DrNickels said:


> ...When you weigh near 300 lbs and ride like you are 170 lbs on downhills you are going to crack a frame eventually....


If you weigh 300lbs, you can't really be riding your bike, so how can you have a clue what you're talking about?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

ha! well said doc.

when you polish a turd, all you end up with in the end is a shiny turd. :thumbsup:


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## wardfoto (Aug 12, 2007)

pursuiter--- you make the assumption that that is 300 lbs. of fat. might be that the doc is a gym rat, and has guns bigger than your thighs. just a possibility.
of course the other option is that doc weighs 300 lbs., and doesnt want to any more, thus the bike.
pulled the trigger on that one a little quickly, i think.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

wardfoto said:


> pursuiter--- you make the assumption that that is 300 lbs. of fat. might be that the doc is a gym rat, and has guns bigger than your thighs. just a possibility.....


wanna bet? If he was a rider, he wouldn't post such nonsense :thumbsup:


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

KingCrimson said:


> Mike that post wasn't directed towards you.


Maybe *retrobeast* is one of Mike's "other" MTBR accounts>


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Maybe *retrobeast* is one of Mike's "other" MTBR accounts>


probability?

HIGH!


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## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

I've seen that mistake made before on other forums. 

Dual accounts, posting under the wrong persona.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Like one of the comments early in the thread:

Two bikes have similar components, yet have very different prices. Why are they different?

There are some possibilities I can see.

The cheaper bike has a poorer quality frame.
The cheaper bike has a couple parts that are strategically poor quality and a couple that are strategically better to make the bike appear better than it is (most companies often put cheap, crappy wheels & bottom brackets on OEM spec bikes and dress it up with a snazzy rear derailleur).
The cheaper bike is poorly assembled (or not assembled at all).
The cheaper bike lacks some degree of service and support that the more expensive bike comes with.

For me, if I plan on spending $200-$300 on a bike, I'm not going to be terribly picky about where I spend the money. If my budget is higher, say $500, or possibly $1,000 or more, I'm going to be a bit more choosy about what I spend that money on. It's not easy to save up that kind of coin. I'm going to buy something with proven durability...something I know will last many, many years so I get my money's worth out of it.

Something with hit-or-miss customer service, a spotty dealer network, and additional expenses for actually using the warranty department will steer me away from a product in a heartbeat. A product with a widespread dealer network, solid customer service, and a good warranty will attract my attention.

I refuse to buy cheap stuff to save a little bit of money upon initial purchase. Experience has taught me that spending a little more for a higher quality product from a reputable dealer will often be cheaper in the long run because repair and replacement costs will be minimized. If that mentality gets me branded 'elitist' then so be it. At least I won't have to replace my things nearly as often.


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## wearetheborg (Aug 25, 2008)

For those who are anti-motobecane/BD I have two questions:
1) Lets assume these bikes were offered at LBS, with the same level of support/warranty as Bikesdirect. THEN how much more expensive than BD would they be ? In terms of %.

2)Now lets assume the LBS offers motobecane quality bikes with Trek like warranty
and usual LBS service etc. Then how much more expensive than BD would they be ?

Basically, I want to break down the price of bikes into the physical bike, and the warranty/service.


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## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

Mike, I've read this whole thread and from a person who works in an industry where this type of model is used quite frequently I can see the holes pretty quickly in your business style as can any savvy consumer.

What business is close to the same? Audiology vs. hearing aid dealers.

You Mike are the hearing aid dealer and the Audiologist is the LBS selling the same technology with a better warranty, better service package, and just plain better customer care.

Hearing aid dealers have a high school diploma and pass a test. They use high pressure sales and have no idea how to really treat hearing disorders other than to slap an aid in the ear and say that will be $2000.

Audiologist have extensive educations and have a bachelor's and master's (now required to hold a doctorate degree) and know more about the ear and ear disorders than most physicians, offer better office warranties, better knowledge, and better customer service. Sure they are sometimes, but not always, more expensive than a hearing aid dealer, but you get what you pay for. I will repeat that *You get what you pay for!*

With that being said Mike I've noticed your lack of customer service and your lack of customer empathy and understanding. Fix it or you won't survive. You want to change your image? I am glad and I hope you can! I like to see businesses succeed. No one likes to root for someone's failure.

Here are some books you should read (and yes I've read a few of these)

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idio...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219820509&sr=8-4

This is an important one you should take a look at because customer loyalty is the foundation or any good business. Without you will eventually whither and die out.

http://www.amazon.com/Listen-Up-Cus...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219820509&sr=8-2

This by far Mike is the best book on customer service and if you've ever been to Nordstrom's you will know why

http://www.amazon.com/Nordstrom-Way...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219820902&sr=8-1

Good luck with turning your company around. Listen to the customer, bend over backwards for them and swallow your pride a lot and you will succeed.

*As for you my friend pursuiter*



> If you weigh 300lbs, you can't really be riding your bike, so how can you have a clue what you're talking about?


I've been riding bike for a long time. I will never be small, nor have I ever been small. I probably spend more time a week exercising than you do and eat healthier than you do. Who gives a **** what I look like or how much I weigh? If you are truly that shallow then please don't ever say it someone's face because you might get pounded.



> pursuiter--- you make the assumption that that is 300 lbs. of fat. might be that the doc is a gym rat, and has guns bigger than your thighs. just a possibility.
> of course the other option is that doc weighs 300 lbs., and doesnt want to any more, thus the bike.
> pulled the trigger on that one a little quickly, i think.


Not fat, but by all means will never be skinny. I've been lifting weights since I was 11 and have done farm work all my life growing up. I will never be, nor will ever want to be small. I like being my size. I can out lift most people, out run most little guys, and kick the **** out of most people who would ever try and push me down. Who cares if someone posts a comment and is 300 lbs and out of shape? Does being out of shape make someone's opinion not matter? What are you some kind of racist? It doesn't take a set of 6 pack abs and cut glutes to know value when you ride it. Value is value whether you want to admit it or not.



> wanna bet? If he was a rider, he wouldn't post such nonsense


So my posts are nonsense and yours are just awesome? With thinking like that you will go oh so far in life. Thank you for living up to the elitist attitude I knew you held though. It makes it even more fun to laugh at you. I've been teased about my weight and size all my life. What's one more online ******* hiding behind a computer to add to the list?


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## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

God damn I've seen that bike before.....but where......

Oh yes!










That bike is fly man! I wonder if it will snap at the top tube like the last mongoose I rode and cause me to go to the ER and get 15 stitches on the inside of my leg again? Woooooooooooo

Wait WTF? That bike is like $300 more than that wally world bike? What is going on?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

*Some posts are kinda strange*

I really do not understand some of these posts

- Posts where a Motobecane is compared to a Mongoose that has a different frame and completely different components. Motobecanes are all made in Taiwan; the Mongoose is clearly made in China. Makes no sense.

- Posts where I am given the advise that I will go out of business unless I do what the poster advises. After 30 years in the business, in an environment where I sell every bike I can get and my sales are increasing at a rate that is 33 times the industry rate of increase; I am about to go under. Seems unlikely.

- Posts where I am treated like I am a student. sure, I have things to learn; but giving me reading assignments is a bit over the top. In addition, to being in the bike industry for 30 years and working in other industries; I did go to school.

- Posts where people do not seem to understand the basic power of altering the distribution method. Where poster seems to think the only way for a bike to be cheaper is for it to use a different frame. To me this makes no sense as the frame on any bike is very small percent of the final cost.{I and other industry oem insiders have posted frame costs all over the net} And the distribution expense is a big part of the bike price. In addition, to the fact that many of our bikes are the same exact bike available from shops -- just much less money.

- Posts with name calling. I just do not get that.

this post by wearetheborg I understand

_*Basically, I want to break down the price of bikes into the physical bike, and the warranty/service. *_

And here is the simple answer: the industry standard is FOB times 3 equals MSRP. So if you but a bike in a bike shop for $1500 - it cost about $500 to produce. The remaining $1000 is distribution cost.

I would point out again: I think it is great that cyclists have choices. Choices in Bikes, Choices in Dealers, Choices in Prices. And I am glad that thousands of cyclists are very happy with their choice to buy from bikesdirect. And I am glad that thousands of cyclists are very happy with their choice to buy from other on-line dealers. And I am glad that thousands of cyclists are very happy with their choice to buy from brick & mortar stores.

I would hope that noone would object to cyclists having choices. Choices are a good thing.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

*Some posts are kinda strange*

I really do not understand some of these posts

- Posts where a Motobecane is compared to a Mongoose that has a different frame and completely different components. Motobecanes are all made in Taiwan; the Mongoose is clearly made in China. Makes no sense.

- Posts where I am given the advise that I will go out of business unless I do what the poster advises. After 30 years in the business, in an environment where I sell every bike I can get and my sales are increasing at a rate that is 33 times the industry rate of increase; I am about to go under. Seems unlikely.

- Posts where I am treated like I am a student. sure, I have things to learn; but giving me reading assignments is a bit over the top. In addition, to being in the bike industry for 30 years and working in other industries; I did go to school.

- Posts where people do not seem to understand the basic power of altering the distribution method. Where poster seems to think the only way for a bike to be cheaper is for it to use a different frame. To me this makes no sense as the frame on any bike is very small percent of the final cost.{I and other industry oem insiders have posted frame costs all over the net} And the distribution expense is a big part of the bike price. In addition, to the fact that many of our bikes are the same exact bike available from shops -- just much less money.

- Posts with name calling. I just do not get that.

this post by wearetheborg I understand

_*Basically, I want to break down the price of bikes into the physical bike, and the warranty/service. *_

And here is the simple answer: the industry standard is FOB times 3 equals MSRP. So if you but a bike in a bike shop for $1500 - it cost about $500 to produce. The remaining $1000 is distribution cost.

I would point out again: I think it is great that cyclists have choices. Choices in Bikes, Choices in Dealers, Choices in Prices. And I am glad that thousands of cyclists are very happy with their choice to buy from bikesdirect. And I am glad that thousands of cyclists are very happy with their choice to buy from other on-line dealers. And I am glad that thousands of cyclists are very happy with their choice to buy from brick & mortar stores.

I would hope that noone would object to cyclists having choices. Choices are a good thing.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

*Some posts are kinda strange*

I really do not understand some of these posts

- Posts where a Motobecane is compared to a Mongoose that has a different frame and completely different components. Motobecanes are all made in Taiwan; the Mongoose is clearly made in China. Makes no sense.

- Posts where I am given the advise that I will go out of business unless I do what the poster advises. After 30 years in the business, in an environment where I sell every bike I can get and my sales are increasing at a rate that is 33 times the industry rate of increase; I am about to go under. Seems unlikely.

- Posts where I am treated like I am a student. Sure, I have things to learn; but giving me reading assignments is a bit over the top. In addition, to being in the bike industry for 30 years and working in other industries; I did go to school.

- Posts where people do not seem to understand the basic power of altering the distribution method. Where poster seems to think the only way for a bike to be cheaper is for it to use a different frame. To me this makes no sense as the frame on any bike is very small percent of the final cost.{I and other industry oem insiders have posted frame costs all over the net} And the distribution expense is a big part of the bike price. In addition, to the fact that many of our bikes are the same exact bike available from shops -- just much less money.

- Posts with name calling. I just do not get that.

this post by wearetheborg I understand

"_*Basically, I want to break down the price of bikes into the physical bike, and the warranty/service. *_"

And here is the simple answer: the industry standard is FOB times 3 equals MSRP. So if you buy a bike in a bike shop for $1500 - it cost about $500 to produce. The remaining $1000 is distribution cost.

I would point out again: I think it is great that cyclists have choices. Choices in Bikes, Choices in Dealers, Choices in Prices. And I am glad that thousands of cyclists are very happy with their choice to buy from bikesdirect. And I am glad that thousands of cyclists are very happy with their choice to buy from other on-line dealers. And I am glad that thousands of cyclists are very happy with their choice to buy from brick & mortar stores.

I would hope that noone would object to cyclists having choices. Choices are a good thing.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Hey Mike, your up drinking late too eh? Come on people, let this thread die in peace please!


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Clutchman83 said:


> Hey Mike, your up drinking late too eh? Come on people, let this thread die in peace please!


I wish I could stay up late; I have the oposite problem. I fall asleep early; then get up about 3am everyday.

And I agree - this thread has about answered all related issues. However, there are some forum threads on our bikes that are 10 or 12 times as big as this one. So who knows when a thread will die?

I can think of many more interesing topics: a couple bought up here are oem prices on frames vs components; and the step by step cost of the distribution channel. Of course, those may only be interesting to me.


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## wearetheborg (Aug 25, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> _*Basically, I want to break down the price of bikes into the physical bike, and the warranty/service. *_
> 
> And here is the simple answer: the industry standard is FOB times 3 equals MSRP. So if you but a bike in a bike shop for $1500 - it cost about $500 to produce. The remaining $1000 is distribution cost.


Mike, how much would a bike that cost $500 to produce sell on bikesdirect if I may ask ?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

wearetheborg said:


> Mike, how much would a bike that cost $500 to produce sell on bikesdirect if I may ask ?


About $750 [about half the market price in shops]
And the OEM price we pay is the same as other importers
As many know; we use the same factories as other big brands

There are a few small oem buyers who would pay a little more [about 5%] than the top 20 or 25 importers pay -

Our business model - like on-line sellers in many industry is built around how to reduced the distribution overhead of putting a product in the comsumers hands.

In the new 2009 Pricing bicycle environment; that difference will become even more clear.


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## wearetheborg (Aug 25, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> About $750 [about half the market price in shops]
> And the OEM price we pay is the same as other importers
> As many know; we use the same factories as other big brands
> 
> ...


It gotta be more than that  
Manufacturing cost: $500
Shipping to end user: $50
Personnel + operating costs = ??

750 would not leave much of a profit margin. I was expecting more around $900.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

wearetheborg said:


> It gotta be more than that
> Manufacturing cost: $500
> Shipping to end user: $50
> Personnel + operating costs = ??
> ...


Required Operating Margin on online businesses is very low
and we are working daily to reduce the expenses and thus keep prices down

This is true in all online businesses in all industries


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

DrNickels said:


> ...So my posts are nonsense ...


Nothing objective, just run on rants and insults. And the idea that a 300lbs lard-a$$ can ride like a 170lb rider is nonsense. Try shorter posts with objective facts.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

DrNickels said:


> Audiologist have extensive educations and have a bachelor's and master's (now required to hold a doctorate degree) and know more about the ear and ear disorders than most physicians......


THIS is where your analogy becomes complete nonsense. Most (not all) LBS's I have dealt with generally know far less about what they are selling than I do if it is something I have an interest in, and have done any research on. Their info comes from what they heard from some other guy in the shop who is just as clueless, or better yet, from the sales reps for the companies whose products they sell. These people are, for the most part NOT highly trained beyond the time they have worked at the given shop. I doubt that 1 in 10 owners/managers have even had the equivalent of an associate's degree in formal training, let alone bachelor's, master's or doctorate. I'm not saying that the education aspect is a bad thing, just that it is COMPLETELY different from what you are describing. While I don't think Mike is any bike expert, he seems to be on par with most bike shop owners/managers I have dealt with (granted, that's not saying much). See my thread "Stupidest Thing You've Heard From Behind The Counter".


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

*The Forums serve a very useful function*

Several months ago forum members suggested we get a CX model with disc brakes
even though it is illegal to race

Here it is
and on the way and should be in about 4 weeks from now










I really appreciate the ideas on bikes like this on all forums
thanks
Mike


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## wardfoto (Aug 12, 2007)

Not fat, but by all means will never be skinny. I've been lifting weights since I was 11 and have done farm work all my life growing up. I will never be, nor will ever want to be small. I like being my size. I can out lift most people, out run most little guys, and kick the **** out of most people who would ever try and push me down. Who cares if someone posts a comment and is 300 lbs and out of shape? Does being out of shape make someone's opinion not matter? What are you some kind of racist? It doesn't take a set of 6 pack abs and cut glutes to know value when you ride it. Value is value whether you want to admit it or not.

first off, you misread what i was saying, or took it the wrong way, or wwhatever else it was that got 'em in a wad for you.
i was trying to point out the rather obvious fact that pursuiter may have been making an erroneous judgment about your size. he jumped straight to fat, without ever knowing why you are such a big dude. i was attempting to point out that making such assumptions can be erroneous.
i was also attempting to point out that even if you are a big dude, that maybe you wanted to change that, and that is why you got a bike. health, exercise, weight loss, sheer enjoyment of the ride. a little defense against a fairly obvious assumption that was being made about you.
in addition, i made no comment to the value of any bike. if you've got a bike, ride it, and love it, then who really cares what anybody else thinks about it? or about you for that matter?
if you are out of shape and 300 lbs, it seems that it might even be more likely that you got a bike to get into better shape, and to have a good time on the trails while doing it. so what exactly is wrong with that? and my guess is that you did not buy the first bike you tried, so you have a good base of knowledge with which to speak. so having said that, at what point did i ever dismiss anything you said?
on top of that if you don't want it to matter that you are 300 lbs, for whatever reason, then it also doesn't matter how much you can lift, how fast you can run, or how much a** you believe you are capable of kicking. all three of which may be more irrelevant to the discussion of perceived value than my attempt at pointing out that just because you say you weigh 300 lbs., doesn't mean you are fat.
and lastly, please tell me how i came across as racist? i have read these statements over and over, and have seen no mention of race anywhere? plus, don't i have to know your race, and you mine before throwing that out there?
so, in conclusion, if my attempt at pointing out that the assumption could have been wrong, and that maybe the trigger was pulled a little quickly on the name calling came across as wrong, well, [email protected]#$ it. i tried. and since you then resorted to name calling on an even more biased assumption than pursuiter, well, [email protected]#$ that, too. don't get 'em in a wad when somebody says something to you, then turn around and do the exact same thing to some one else. it's called hypocrisy, and you should know better. i hope you are enjoying your fisher, they are some pretty nice bikes. have a good one.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

DrNickels said:


> Wait WTF? That bike is like $300 more than that wally world bike? What is going on?


must be the higher spec'ed rear der and tyres.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> The Forums serve a very useful function


and clearly you think one of them is advertising your company/products.

why you haven't been censured for your obvious, blatant, repeated violation of mtbr rules by the constant spamming of your wares is beyond me. no telling who at mtbr you are suckin up to or how, but it's clear you have your lips firmly planted on someone's arse because i have never seen another manufacturer/distributor get away with as much non-paying spam advertising as you have done in this thread.

i am seldom (read virtually never) in favor of a thread being locked no matter how out of hand, off topic, or flame warring troll bait it becomes; but your constant use and abuse of the forum for free advertising warrants this thread to be locked and flushed to the bin.

WAKE UP MODS!


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

why do you guys keep bumping this thread if you hate it so much


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## jpelaston (Feb 27, 2007)

bump


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## axcxnj (Jun 23, 2008)

the fork on this bike
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/uno.htm

looks EXACTLY like the fork on the surly cross check, is it the same?

i was planning on getting a cross check and setting it up fixed..but this looks more enticing, and i can just replace the wheels when they explode


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

axcxnj said:


> the fork on this bike
> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/uno.htm
> 
> looks EXACTLY like the fork on the surly cross check, is it the same?
> ...


I think this is the same fork as the surly
there are a limited number of makers of high-grade steel frames
and of investment chrown forks
I am fairly sure we use the same as surly on many bikes

I am going to get an UNO myself [in WHITE] and put on 42c tires with deep-v wheelset in either Red or Blue and a matching chian or something fun

I put 47c on our production samples and road it around and it was a hoot
fun bike for training, commuting, winter bike, or whatever


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

monogod said:


> and clearly you think one of them is advertising your company/products.
> 
> why you haven't been censured for your obvious, blatant, repeated violation of mtbr rules by the constant spamming of your wares is beyond me. no telling who at mtbr you are suckin up to or how, but it's clear you have your lips firmly planted on someone's arse because i have never seen another manufacturer/distributor get away with as much non-paying spam advertising as you have done in this thread.
> 
> ...


The traffic we get off threads in forums is close to nothing compared to our normal site traffic

What we do get is great ideas - and I am surprised more industry oem types are not posting

I have done lots of bikes and colors based on suggestions on forums
too many to mention them all

but like bringing the Messengerr in PINK - SS/FG posters suggested that
I did it - took 6 months to come in - Boom - they sold out at once
Just now getting in Grape Soda colored Kilo TT suggested by posters
and a CREAM colored Kilo TT Pro suggested by posters

We had so many requests and posts on FS 29er - that I had to design and order one; I felt. I am sure when it arrives next year it will sell out at once.

So I like the forums
AND I like choices
And I like the fact that if someone does not like to read a thread - they can just skip it


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

axcxnj said:


> the fork on this bike
> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/uno.htm
> 
> looks EXACTLY like the fork on the surly cross check, is it the same?


Are you kidding me? Look again.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

monogod said:


> and clearly you think one of them is advertising your company/products.
> 
> why you haven't been censured for your obvious, blatant, repeated violation of mtbr rules by the constant spamming of your wares is beyond me. no telling who at mtbr you are suckin up to or how, but it's clear you have your lips firmly planted on someone's arse because i have never seen another manufacturer/distributor get away with as much non-paying spam advertising as you have done in this thread.
> 
> ...


I agree, totally.

We need MOD control like the following examples from another MTBR forum:

statement------


mrpercussive said:


> Check out classifieds soon. Will have both my Iggy and Zone frame listed....


MOD response-------


crisillo said:


> congrats on the sponsorship!
> 
> please do place a classified ad for the spam


next statement(same page)-------


mrpercussive said:


> Well, i am selling the Zone as a frameset and the Iggy as a complete bike...


MOD response-----


crisillo said:


> mr perc, as I said above, please either keep the thread on the sponsorship or get a classified for the bikes, otherwise I'll take down the posts referring to the bikes as spam


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## dascro (Apr 1, 2007)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> I agree, totally.
> 
> We need MOD control like the following examples from another MTBR forum:
> 
> ...


Completely unfair. What he did was not even as bad as what bikesdirect does here regularly. Lets get some consistancy from the mods already. I would have thought they would have learned about that after the last incident involving Jack from Ibex


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> The traffic we get off threads in forums is close to nothing compared to our normal site traffic


who cares? QUIT SPAMMING THE FORUM BY ADVERTISING YOUR DAMN BIKES.



bikesdirect said:


> What we do get is great ideas - and I am surprised more industry oem types are not posting


no, what you are doing is SPAMMING THE FORUM BY ADVERTISING YOUR DAMN BIKES.



bikesdirect said:


> I have done lots of bikes and colors based on suggestions on forums
> too many to mention them all


captain obvious wishes to point out that these suggestions CAME FROM OTHERS. what you are doing is SPAMMING THE FORUM BY ADVERTISING YOUR DAMN BIKES.



bikesdirect said:


> but like bringing the Messengerr in PINK - SS/FG posters suggested that
> I did it - took 6 months to come in - Boom - they sold out at once
> Just now getting in Grape Soda colored Kilo TT suggested by posters
> and a CREAM colored Kilo TT Pro suggested by posters


relevance? NONE!

the suggestions came from posters, what you are doing is SPAMMING THE FORUM BY ADVERTISING YOUR DAMN BIKES.



bikesdirect said:


> We had so many requests and posts on FS 29er - that I had to design and order one; I felt. I am sure when it arrives next year it will sell out at once.


hmmm.... i missed all the clamoring on the 29er forum begging you to produce a fs 29er. :skep: 

but even so, that is not the same as SPAMMING THE FORUM BY ADVERTISING YOUR DAMN BIKES.



bikesdirect said:


> So I like the forums


and why shouldn't you? the mods don't seem to mind one bit that you are SPAMMING THE FORUM BY ADVERTISING YOUR DAMN BIKES. there have been manufacturers/distributors threatened with being banned or FAAAAAAAR less spamming than you have done.

you don't even have the decency or INTEGRITY to follow the manufacturer/distributor guidelines by not SPAMMING THE FORUM BY ADVERTISING YOUR DAMN BIKES yet you insist you're a reputable businessman with honorable/ethical practices??? sheeeeeeee-it.  whatever. 

any chance you would QUIT SPAMMING THE FORUM BY ADVERTISING YOUR DAMN BIKES?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

dascro said:


> Completely unfair. What he did was not even as bad as what bikesdirect does here regularly. Lets get some consistancy from the mods already. I would have thought they would have learned about that after the last incident involving Jack from Ibex


man, you ain't kiddin'. :madman:


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

*What is this???*



bikesdirect said:


> - Posts with name calling. I just do not get that.


???



bikesdirect said:


> then you are a little bit crazy


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## trailville (Jul 24, 2006)

I have to say, I'm glad to see bikesdirect on these forums. I think it would be great if more manufacturers participated directly in these forums. I don't consider mentioning a new product or new design as spam. As long as it's clear who the poster is (I don't like these guys that obviously have ties to a manufacturer, pretending to be regular joes and continuously promoting specific products). 
So as long as we know who they are, and they post useful info on their products and answer questions. I don't see what the problem is. 

I would like to add my gripe with bikesdirect though. It really annoys me when you list a bike as a "XT 27Spd" when the only XT part on it is the RD, and everything else is well below the XT level (or LX or XTR or whatever you list the bike as). I know you're not the only one doing this, but it's hard to see this as anything other that a way to deceive the buyer into thinking he is getting better components than he really is. And yes, I know you list the actual components, but I suspect that a lot of noobs don't know enough about the specific components to realize that they are not really getting XT-level components. 
It looks like you offer a decent enough bike for the price, so why play these games?


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## dascro (Apr 1, 2007)

trailville said:


> I have to say, I'm glad to see bikesdirect on these forums. I think it would be great if more manufacturers participated directly in these forums. I don't consider mentioning a new product or new design as spam. As long as it's clear who the poster is (I don't like these guys that obviously have ties to a manufacturer, pretending to be regular joes and continuously promoting specific products).
> So as long as we know who they are, and they post useful info on their products and answer questions. I don't see what the problem is.


I agree that they are welcome here. They can provide solutions to problems with their bikes or just learn what people actually want. My problem is the advertising they do, or more specifically the way the mods let them get away with it. They crack down so hard on the guy trying to sell his one spare bike without paying for the 2$ ad, yet they allow certain online bike companies to use this forum as their personal virtual store front. It just is not right to me.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

trailville said:


> I have to say, I'm glad to see bikesdirect on these forums. I think it would be great if more manufacturers participated directly in these forums. I don't consider mentioning a new product or new design as spam.


thats what THIS FORUM and the classifieds are for.

hawking their wares in the general discussion forum is SPAM.



trailville said:


> I would like to add my gripe with bikesdirect though. It really annoys me when you list a bike as a "XT 27Spd" when the only XT part on it is the RD, and everything else is well below the XT level (or LX or XTR or whatever you list the bike as). I know you're not the only one doing this, but it's hard to see this as anything other that a way to deceive the buyer into thinking he is getting better components than he really is. And yes, I know you list the actual components, but I suspect that a lot of noobs don't know enough about the specific components to realize that they are not really getting XT-level components.


it is deceptive. and it does fool noobs. shame on them.


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## wearetheborg (Aug 25, 2008)

trailville said:


> I would like to add my gripe with bikesdirect though. It really annoys me when you list a bike as a "XT 27Spd" when the only XT part on it is the RD, and everything else is well below the XT level (or LX or XTR or whatever you list the bike as). I know you're not the only one doing this, but it's hard to see this as anything other that a way to deceive the buyer into thinking he is getting better components than he really is. And yes, I know you list the actual components, but I suspect that a lot of noobs don't know enough about the specific components to realize that they are not really getting XT-level components.
> It looks like you offer a decent enough bike for the price, so why play these games?


I too would like a real true XT bike.
Yes, there are "XTR" bikes with XT components, but they are too expensive.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

trailville said:


> I have to say, I'm glad to see bikesdirect on these forums. I think it would be great if more manufacturers participated directly in these forums. I don't consider mentioning a new product or new design as spam. As long as it's clear who the poster is (I don't like these guys that obviously have ties to a manufacturer, pretending to be regular joes and continuously promoting specific products).
> So as long as we know who they are, and they post useful info on their products and answer questions. I don't see what the problem is.
> 
> I would like to add my gripe with bikesdirect though. It really annoys me when you list a bike as a "XT 27Spd" when the only XT part on it is the RD, and everything else is well below the XT level (or LX or XTR or whatever you list the bike as). I know you're not the only one doing this, but it's hard to see this as anything other that a way to deceive the buyer into thinking he is getting better components than he really is. And yes, I know you list the actual components, but I suspect that a lot of noobs don't know enough about the specific components to realize that they are not really getting XT-level components.
> It looks like you offer a decent enough bike for the price, so why play these games?


I appreciate your even hand comments; it is easy to take someone seriously when they at least make an effort to see all sides of an issue.

I agree with you - I wish there was an industry standard on listing components. And an industry standard on weights, courntry of origin and prices being presented up front.

There used to be full group enforcement - but as you may know a famous law suit ended that. And then there are the disagreements on what is a group; I am sure you have read about those.

But I agree a bike is much more than it's rear der. However, the industry focuses on that and thus the customers follow and if we buck the trend we drive up relative pricing or drive customers to our competitors. Lots of our bikes we use shifters and der from one group; but it is risky. We use 3-pc of Ultegra; then a Felt uses Ultegra shifter and frt der with DA rear and we look over priced.

Being an old guy; I like to relate stories:
A bit over 20 years ago I was at the bike show with my best friend; who was the president of Peugeot. He was very upset. I ask what was wrong and he said "I just got the Schwinn catalog and I do not see how this Schwinn Varsity is so much lighter than a U010. It has heavy one peice crank and heavy welded tubing frame - how do they do it?" I told him they just lie about the weight. He did not even beleive me "Oh No No No - that is not allowed, there are standards, there are rules, the governerment would not allow such a thing! They must just have a secret to make this Varsity so light". I told him this was not France and no regulator from the government was going around weighing bikes. After about 5 years here he was totally aware for how different we are from France {which by and large I really appreciate and enjoy}

Point is: until there are agreed on standards in the industry or until there are enforcable rules -- the market place is everyone's guide & master. My situation is: I would love a set of standards or even enforcement of the ones we have. No seller would benefit from such standards more than I. Example: percent content USA before you can claim made in USA. This standard exists and no one follows it.

For now - we rely on including all specs so everyone can see and try to use as many boutique brand name parts as the price point will allow.

One thing I like about top end bikes - everything is on the table; groups are generally not mixed and any company that quotes weights knows they need to be close. It is much easier to compare a le Champion Team Ti or Fly Team to a another brand than it is to compare to entry and middle stuff where everyone has the parts all jubbled up.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> I can think of many more interesing topics: a couple bought up here are oem prices on frames vs components; and the step by step cost of the distribution channel. Of course, those may only be interesting to me.


Very good, thinly disguised spam... as far as I'm concerned this thread has turned into a continuous regurgitation of the same arguments from both sides. You say, "I'll save the consumer money!" while many of us point out that there are services that you cannot offer that account for the difference in price. I'm sick of hearing you say that there is a place for the LBS and then in the next breath say that they are ripping everyone off. This is an advertising tactic, you are using these forums to hock your wares plain and simple. If you want to have a discussion about how to improve your product that is one thing but that's not what your doing here. Responding to posters who say they don't like your bikes by spamming the crap out of this forum is obviously pissing a lot of people off. Monogod, Dascro, Noobi, and others are right, it's time to knock it off.


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## dascro (Apr 1, 2007)

Clutchman83 said:


> Very good, thinly disguised spam... as far as I'm concerned this thread has turned into a continuous regurgitation of the same arguments from both sides. You say, "I'll save the consumer money!" while many of us point out that there are services that you cannot offer that account for the difference in price. I'm sick of hearing you say that there is a place for the LBS and then in the next breath say that they are ripping everyone off. This is an advertising tactic, you are using these forums to hock your wares plain and simple. If you want to have a discussion about how to improve your product that is one thing but that's not what your doing here. Responding to posters who say they don't like your bikes by spamming the crap out of this forum is obviously pissing a lot of people off. Monogod, Dascro, Noobi, and others are right, it's time to knock it off.


Well put!

I don't have a personal problem with bikesdirect as I do with another owner of an online bike company. Hell, maybe I would do the same thing if I could get free advertising on a site that is supposed to offer non-biased reviews. But its clear thats what's going on and its time the mods put an end to it. This thread as been nothing but but an advertisement for bikesdirect. I am going to be selling a frame next week and I'll be damned if I have to pay my 2$ to sell one crappy frame worth maybe 100$ when an entire company gets free advertising here


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2008)

Clutchman83 said:


> Very good, thinly disguised spam... as far as I'm concerned this thread has turned into a continuous regurgitation of the same arguments from both sides. You say, ....


It's funny how you and the people you mentioned willfully, seemingly blindly, perpetuate this thread and others like it.

Most who read this are likely entertained, others simply ignore. Like you say, the points have been made a dozen times already. Make that a dozen +1...

G.


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## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

> THIS is where your analogy becomes complete nonsense. Most (not all) LBS's I have dealt with generally know far less about what they are selling than I do if it is something I have an interest in, and have done any research on. Their info comes from what they heard from some other guy in the shop who is just as clueless, or better yet, from the sales reps for the companies whose products they sell. These people are, for the most part NOT highly trained beyond the time they have worked at the given shop. I doubt that 1 in 10 owners/managers have even had the equivalent of an associate's degree in formal training, let alone bachelor's, master's or doctorate. I'm not saying that the education aspect is a bad thing, just that it is COMPLETELY different from what you are describing. While I don't think Mike is any bike expert, he seems to be on par with most bike shop owners/managers I have dealt with (granted, that's not saying much). See my thread "Stupidest Thing You've Heard From Behind The Counter".


Wow that just sucks man. My LBS must be one of the best because they are always on top of the game and if there weren't I'd move on and find a different shop or wrench myself. I know my analogy was no 100% fool proof, but there are also bad doctors out there too just like there are bad shops. It's a shame when people find a bad shop they stay with them. As a consumer we have the choice to take our business where it will take care of us. This is the point I've been harping at Mike and BD because they are not offering the kind of customer service they need to provide to draw in more customers. They are still making money off noobs and always will unless they branch out and swallow some pride and get customer friendly

*Wardfoto*
that post was to pursuiter not you, my bad. I know you were only pointing out a flaw to him. I was simply picking up the argument and continuing it to drive it home to him. Thanks for the common sense though that pursuiter has seemed to lack in this thread. All I've seen from him is malicious attack one after the other with no facts, no ideas, just pure hatred towards anyone who doesn't agree with him.

Lastly

*Mike*.

I know you aren't dumb and you are educated. Never insinuated you weren't, but you act as though you have nothing to learn. You've been in business for 30 years? Great. You know you can be a mediocre business and still stay in business for a long time. You can scrape out a living, but you will never be "great" as you want to be with the way you are acting.

You see Mike not everyone is an idiot. Some people look beyond just spec sheets and products, they look at what lies underneath a name. I suggested those books to you because they are good books and they can help in an area you really seem to be lacking in; Customer Service. You truly do lack in this area and I've seen it through friends who have been bent over by your customer warranty. I've seen it when they have to dish out $100 to have something fixed at the LBS when if they had spent a few more dollars could have had it done for free under a LBS service plan.

Mike, you are screwing the pooch on customer service. You can dance around it and post other specs up and another set of product spam and tell us how you listen to customers, but the truth is you aren't listening to customers. You are taking ideas that seem popular and then running with them and dishing out the same mediocre stale customer service and support. Price isn't everything in business. If you think it is you will be able to make a living but you are just shy of a pimp that way. I enjoy that a man can play the sob story and say how he only wants to help people afford good bikes then in the next post talk about buying a new BMW every year, but won't anymore because they aren't where it's at. Wow.

You wonder why your Motobecane gets a bad rap? Re-read this thread post by post and look at how you treat people? You either treat them like idiots, totally ignore their post and side step issues by spamming more products, or you just continue to repeat the mantra that you save people money which it's been shown by countless posters that it only saves money in the short run. In the end after years of riding their bike warranty will be null in void unless they've spent extra hundreds of dollars getting their bikes serviced by professionals in bike shops. That extra cash to service items to keep the warranty good and when you add in that your warranty usually screws the pooch, there is your difference in price, actually probably more so.

So Mike, you might be right, you may stay in business for many more years, but you will never achieve the status you want because you will never play nice with the customer. Tactics of the customer always being wrong, worming your way out of warranty claims, insulting posters in open internet forums (do a bikes direct search on google and see what you get!), and spamming supposedly unbiased forums with your advertisements all reek of sub-par business ethics and make you seem like a slimy used car salesman.

And you say you will be successful? Well Mike I almost bought a 29er from you until I read some of the previous posts and threads from you and others and saw how your customer service was and how you as a proprietor treated people. I took my $1000 and went to Gary Fisher. You lost $1000 and now everyone I know will be steered away from Bikesdirect and Motobecane. When you make one customer unhappy it's been shown they will tell about 10 people about it. So you've lost around 10,000 in sales, and if you throw in the dozens of others on this thread you've insulted you just lost a lot of money for your business.


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## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

I applaud you, good sir, that was quite possibly the most epic lashing ever.

And I completely agree.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

DrNickels said:


> Wow that just sucks man. My LBS must be one of the best because they are always on top of the game and if there weren't I'd move on and find a different shop or wrench myself. I know my analogy was no 100% fool proof, but there are also bad doctors out there too just like there are bad shops. It's a shame when people find a bad shop they stay with them. As a consumer we have the choice to take our business where it will take care of us. This is the point I've been harping at Mike and BD because they are not offering the kind of customer service they need to provide to draw in more customers. They are still making money off noobs and always will unless they branch out and swallow some pride and get customer friendly


Your right, it does suck. And yes, I do move on to find better shops. In my case it's neither of the ones in my town (both within 3 miles of my house) but rather one that is 30 miles away (they are awesome). But basically I learn to wrench myself.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

DrNickels said:


> . This is the point I've been harping at Mike and BD because they are not offering the kind of customer service they need to provide to draw in more customers.
> 
> So Mike, you might be right, you may stay in business for many more years, but you will never achieve the status you want because you will never play nice with the customer. .
> 
> And you say you will be successful? Well Mike I almost bought a 29er from you until I read some of the previous posts and threads from you and others and saw how your customer service was and how you as a proprietor treated people. I took my $1000 and went to Gary Fisher. You lost $1000 and now everyone I know will be steered away from Bikesdirect and Motobecane. When you make one customer unhappy it's been shown they will tell about 10 people about it. So you've lost around 10,000 in sales, and if you throw in the dozens of others on this thread you've insulted you just lost a lot of money for your business.


I do understand the Wheel of Retailing and that is why I have always planned for extra brands and extra sites. In fact, last year we added one extra URL. This fall we are opening another. Next year there will be one extra URL in Summer and one more URL in Fall. Including extra brands to go with them.

I know some customers want to pay more and get 'premium' service. I know some customers want an 800 phone line open at least 40 hours a week; and some want a phone line staffed 24 hours a day / 7 days a week. And I know some are willing to pay for it. Not all customers feel that way; but some do.

I see our on-line competitors selling bikes that are spec'd the same as ours for 20%, 30%, and sometimes 50% more; and they move bikes too. And I know LBS sell bikes at 100% all the time. So this proves, to me, that some customers want to buy in a different way.

So I have heard this type of input before; and in fact I have been moving towards more alternatives for consumers. We do not intend to give up the low price model and thus give up the spec/value/price driven customer. The customer who wants to save $2500 on a DuraAce bike will still find a home on bikesdirect. But the customer who prefers to have a more personal phone conversation that is close to the 'in store' experience and save 'only' $1500 will have another option with us.

This will all be bought into line as more supply becomes available. I am sure you will love your Gray Fisher 29er. I am just as sure I will run out of 29ers before I can get more. I always do. In addition, we have lots of requests to add a 29er with Reba & XT & and highend wheels at under $1000. And we have reacted to that and ordered bikes. I have no question that every one we get we sell before we can get more.

But when the bike supply situation improves and we can get more bikes; we will be ready to offer options in buying experiences ~~ ranging from budget driven to premium pricing/service. That way we can reach more customers on the playing feild each prefers. Not a new formula that I thought up; many suppliers and retailers do the same thing.

Thanks for your concern about my success.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

kapusta said:


> But basically I learn to wrench myself.


A great idea for all cyclists! And really not that hard.
Adds to the entire cycling exoerience.


----------



## FastZR1 (Aug 10, 2008)

What a long thread.... I enjoy reading most of the folk's inputs, some more than others though.

Anyways, I can't wait for my 2009 ProFly to ship. The wait is harder than I thought it would have been three weeks ago when I pre-ordered it.

Standing by...


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

FastZR1 said:


> What a long thread.... I enjoy reading most of the folk's inputs, some more than others though.
> 
> Anyways, I can't wait for my 2009 ProFly to ship. The wait is harder than I thought it would have been three weeks ago when I pre-ordered it.
> 
> Standing by...


Thank you for your order
and for waiting

Even though site says shipping on Sept 15th; I expect those to ship before that. Maybe as early as Sept 5th.

They are in port; just need to clear customs and unload etc

We always try to ship pre-booked bikes before the promised date

thanks again


----------



## Bends But Doesn't Break (Jun 23, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Thank you for your order
> and for waiting
> 
> Even though site says shipping on Sept 15th; I expect those to ship before that. Maybe as early as Sept 5th.
> ...


Any update on shipping of the Fly Team Ti's?


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Bends But Doesn't Break said:


> Any update on shipping of the Fly Team Ti's?


YES
FLY TEAM Ti is on the same shipment as the FLY PRO
so it should be in around Sept 5th we hope

Labor day may hols up customs or transport companies; but we will certainly beat the promised Sept 15th

We are looking forward to these; as many have been pre-sold
And customers are also excited about the new spec with the improved fork


----------



## ridesalot (Jul 24, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> YES
> FLY TEAM Ti is on the same shipment as the FLY PRO
> so it should be in around Sept 5th we hope
> 
> ...


Other than the 2009 SID fork upgrade, are there any other spec chnages on the new 2009 version compared to the bike shown on the site? I heard the 2009 Ti bikes are getting a new black/white decal scheme, is that right? Do you have pics of the new bikes?


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

ridesalot said:


> Other than the 2009 SID fork upgrade, are there any other spec chnages on the new 2009 version compared to the bike shown on the site? I heard the 2009 Ti bikes are getting a new black/white decal scheme, is that right? Do you have pics of the new bikes?


The components other than the Fork are the same as previuos FLY TEAM Ti

The new Decal colors will look like this Fantom Pro Ti [Pro Ti is the more 'trail' version with big fat tires and real wide gears - about 22 lbs - about $1695 on pre-book]


----------



## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Hello everybody!  Hey you guys- I had no idea this thread would run as long as it has!  ... Would you guys do zarry zarr one big favor though? Just remember to be kind to each other and criticize constructively. We are all mountain bikers and members of our own community- and I am proud to be accepted on this website and able to talk to each and every one of you guys. And it's a strong community too. ...Thanks guys. (sob) ... Somebody get me a box of tissues. I think I got some trail dust in my eyes.  -zarr


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

zarr said:


> Hello everybody!  Hey you guys...be kind to each other and criticize constructively....


kinda reminds me of when Rodney King asked, "Can't we all just get along?"


----------



## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

zarr said:


> Hello everybody!  Hey you guys- I had no idea this thread would run as long as it has!  ... Would you guys do zarry zarr one big favor though? Just remember to be kind to each other and criticize constructively. We are all mountain bikers and members of our own community- and I am proud to be accepted on this website and able to talk to each and every one of you guys. And it's a strong community too. ...Thanks guys. (sob) ... Somebody get me a box of tissues. I think I got some trail dust in my eyes.  -zarr


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> The new Decal colors will look like this Fantom Pro Ti [Pro Ti is the more 'trail' version with big fat tires and real wide gears - about 22 lbs - about $1695 on pre-book]


Is there a link for this bike?


----------



## wearetheborg (Aug 25, 2008)

I hear bike prices are going to o up by 20-30% for 2009 models. Has this increase been already incoporated at bikesdirect ? If not, when will the price increase hit ?


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

i have a whole bunch of bike stuff in my garage i need to sell including a couple of low mileage complete bikes (a surly 1x1 and 2007 stumpjumper expert). so following bikesdirect lead i'm going to list all my stuff (complete with specs and pictures) in the general discussion forum.

of course, since i'm not giving the mods a reach around or tossing their salad my free advertisement will probably get pulled.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

wearetheborg said:


> I hear bike prices are going to o up by 20-30% for 2009 models. Has this increase been already incoporated at bikesdirect ? If not, when will the price increase hit ?


It is true that costs have gone up about 25%
Some brands will increase prices by that; others will 'de-spec' models to keep prices where they look like a 10% increase or 15% increase [like take your entry road bike up 15% and change shifters from Sora to 2200]

bikesdirect costs are the same as any big importer - we have changed a few prices - and on others we are holding the line. our major focus has been reduce costs so prices can stay low

SS/FG is a good example: we are the biggest seller in that catagory. We are not increasing prices; even though our biggest competitors have gone up 20% to 40%. We are not de-specing those bikes either. We have driven a better deal on some service providers and reduced some other costs related to those bikes. Thus if you look at a Kilo TT, The Hour, Messenger, and SST -- we are going to stay aggressively below the market -- about 50 to 60 percent less than equal bikes.

Now on top level bikes; brands can not 'de-spec' - so you are going to see lots of DuraAce and XTR biukes in the $5000 to $6000 range. I think this is just too much for average cyclists. I am going to fight hard to keep those level bikes close to $2000 - where normal income cyclists can justify the expense for a nicve pro level bike.

Do not expect to see big increases from bikesdirect in pricing


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> ...Fantom Pro Ti [Pro Ti is the more 'trail' version with big fat tires and real wide gears - about 22 lbs - about $1695 on pre-book]


Is there a link for this bike? I can't find it on your website.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> Is there a link for this bike? I can't find it on your website.


Fantom Pro Ti link is noty up yet.

I am working on getting it posted today I hope

Pre-book is only $1695
After they are in price will go up to $1895 [still low-priced for 22 lb Ti Hardtail]


----------



## JUNGLEKID5 (May 1, 2006)

Call_me_Al said:


> All I know is that I hate Specialized.


.....+1 for that


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> Fantom Pro Ti link is noty up yet.
> 
> I am working on getting it posted today I hope
> 
> ...


following your lead...

here is a surly 1x1 i have that is about to be on sale. pre-book is only $350. After it actually goes on sale this weekend it will be $400 [still low-priced for a virtually new surly 1x1].










Frame/fork: Surly 1x1 in Cash Black with very low miles
Grips: Lizardskins Moab dual density - NEW
Bars: Specialized Wide Boy
Stem: Zoom
Cranks: Shimano LX Octalink with NEW 32 tooth ring
Chain: Z-Chain - NEW
Bottom Bracket: Shimano Octalink - NEW
Headset: Ritchey Scuzzy Logic - NEW
Brakes (front and rear): Promax - NEW (with new cables/housing/ferrules)
Levers: Avid FR5 - NEW
Saddle: WTB (Bianchi branded) - NEW
Seatpost: Kalloy - NEW
Wheelset: Surly hubs to Rhyno-Lite rims with DT Swiss spokes, laced by Wheelhouse (very low miles). Rear is a flip-flop with an 18T and 20T.
Tyres: Kenda Kinetics 2.60 front and rear (almost new)


----------



## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

monogod said:


> following your lead...
> 
> here is a surly 1x1 i have that is about to be on sale. pre-book is only $350. After it actually goes on sale this weekend it will be $400 [still low-priced for a virtually new surly 1x1].
> 
> ...


But < _insert negative info here_ >.... (read: ignore what i said totally - instead talk about value and compare bike to Spec/Trek/Giant/Kona - delete as applicable).

Please listen to me! :<


----------



## FastZR1 (Aug 10, 2008)

Mike,
When will you have some FS 26" XTRs in stock? Yesterday I was looking at the FS and all three models you have are sold out. I want a FS now and may just have to go to the LBS and pay an arm and leg for one.
Ed


----------



## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

FastZR1 said:


> Mike,
> When will you have some FS 26" XTRs in stock? Yesterday I was looking at the FS and all three models you have are sold out. I want a FS now and may just have to go to the LBS and pay an arm and leg for one.
> Ed


Something doesnt add up....

Since you've already said in this thread that you've preordered a hardtail from him - it makes one wonder why you're buying another bike so soon.

Smells a bit fishy to me.


----------



## FastZR1 (Aug 10, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> Something doesnt add up....
> 
> Since you've already said in this thread that you've preordered a hardtail from him - it makes one wonder why you're buying another bike so soon.
> 
> Smells a bit fishy to me.


Not at all. I just want a FS too. My current bike needed upgraded so I pre-order the FLY-PRO in early August. 
I really don't like waiting so I have been going to the LBS looking at FS bikes. I almost bought a Trek EX9 but decided to wait a couple days. You know, to make sure I wasn't buying something just because I could. We'll I do want a FS. And if I can't get one from Moto, like now, then I'll probably just go by the EX9 tomorrow. What's wrong with two new bikes at the same time?:skep:


----------



## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

FastZR1 said:


> Not at all. I just want a FS too. My current bike needed upgraded so I pre-order the FLY-PRO in early August.
> I really don't like waiting so I have been going to the LBS looking at FS bikes. I almost bought a Trek EX9 but decided to wait a couple days. You know, to make sure I wasn't buying something just because I could. We'll I do want a FS. And if I can't get one from Moto, like now, then I'll probably just go by the EX9 tomorrow. What's wrong with two new bikes at the same time?:skep:


If you can afford that, well, congratulations are in order...

But most of us cant afford two new bikes at the same time...

Or plan to buy two new ones at the same time.
Im not saying its not possible, but it seems wierd.

It just seems odd to have one on order, and be looking for another before you even recieve it.


----------



## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

FastZR1 said:


> Not at all. I just want a FS too. My current bike needed upgraded so I pre-order the FLY-PRO in early August.
> I really don't like waiting so I have been going to the LBS looking at FS bikes. I almost bought a Trek EX9 but decided to wait a couple days. You know, to make sure I wasn't buying something just because I could. We'll I do want a FS. And if I can't get one from Moto, like now, then I'll probably just go by the EX9 tomorrow. What's wrong with two new bikes at the same time?:skep:


Nothing. The more bikes you have, the better. :thumbsup:


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> Something doesnt add up....Since you've already said in this thread that you've preordered a hardtail from him - it makes one wonder why you're buying another bike so soon...Smells a bit fishy to me.


I know, it's one of Mike's extra accounts 

You just can't get over the idea that many Americans perfer Mike's business model. I'm getting ready to buy my fourth and fifth bike from Mike. I worked in a high end bike shop for eight years. I don't have the time or money to deal with an LBS, I can do all my own work, my local sales tax is 10%. Mike gives me the choices I want. I am sorry for all the non-Americans, stuck with no options, extreme import duties and a 18% VAT. Why do their govenments hate them so much


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

FastZR1 said:


> Mike,
> When will you have some FS 26" XTRs in stock? Yesterday I was looking at the FS and all three models you have are sold out. I want a FS now and may just have to go to the LBS and pay an arm and leg for one.
> Ed


The FANTOM TEAM - which I think is the best FS bike deal anywhere is shipping in September and will go on pre-book as soon as it sails

Price will stay at $1899; even though prices have gone up by 20%; I want to keep this bike under $2000 - so those wanting XTR level can still get it at a reasonable price

I expect this bike back on the site within 4 weeks

thanks


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> Price will stay at $1899; even though prices have gone up by 20%; I want to keep this bike under $2000 - so those wanting XTR level can still get it at a reasonable price
> 
> I expect this bike back on the site within 4 weeks
> 
> thanks


price for this bike will stay at $350 plus shipping, so those wanting a virtually new, great singlespeed bike can still get it at a reasonable price.

in fact, THIS WEEKEND ONLY i am offering this bike for $375 SHIPPING INCLUDED (to the 48) to any mtbr member. pm if interested.

thanks.










Frame/fork: Surly 1x1 in Cash Black with very low miles
Grips: Lizardskins Moab dual density - NEW
Bars: Specialized Wide Boy
Stem: Zoom
Cranks: Shimano LX Octalink with NEW 32 tooth ring
Chain: Z-Chain - NEW
Bottom Bracket: Shimano Octalink - NEW
Headset: Ritchey Scuzzy Logic - NEW
Brakes (front and rear): Promax - NEW (with new cables/housing/ferrules)
Levers: Avid FR5 - NEW
Saddle: WTB (Bianchi branded) - NEW
Seatpost: Kalloy - NEW
Wheelset: Surly hubs to Rhyno-Lite rims with DT Swiss spokes, laced by Wheelhouse (very low miles). Rear is a flip-flop with an 18T and 20T.
Tyres: Kenda Kinetics 2.60 front and rear (almost new)


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## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

Sweet build you're sporting, Mono.

Anyone else feel like they followed this thread before it was cool?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

monogod said:


> i have a whole bunch of bike stuff in my garage i need to sell including a couple of low mileage complete bikes (a surly 1x1 and 2007 stumpjumper expert). so following bikesdirect lead i'm going to list all my stuff (complete with specs and pictures) in the general discussion forum.
> 
> of course, since i'm not giving the mods a reach around or tossing their salad my free advertisement will probably get pulled.


Reminds me of stuff stuff I have for sale, which happens to be a GT steel frame, small, beautiful shape. Late 90's I believe. $50 plus shipping to the lower 48. for another $10 bucks I'll throw in the front derailleur shown. I also have some 7 speed shifters/canti brake levers I'll part with for $15 plus shipping. Of course I'm not selling this stuff here, just letting everyone know in case they were interested in what things cost for comparison purposes.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

monogod said:


> price for this bike will stay at $350 plus shipping, so those wanting a virtually new, great singlespeed bike can still get it at a reasonable price.
> 
> in fact, THIS WEEKEND ONLY i am offering this bike for $375 SHIPPING INCLUDED (to the 48) to any mtbr member. pm if interested.
> 
> ...


Sweet deal! What size is that?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

kapusta said:


> Sweet deal! What size is that?


for comparison purposes the seat tube measurement is 21.5 center to center and the top tube is just shy of 24" center to center.


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## RXL (Feb 8, 2008)

:lol:


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## jelliott (Sep 30, 2006)

monogod said:


> i have a whole bunch of bike stuff in my garage i need to sell including a couple of low mileage complete bikes (a surly 1x1 and 2007 stumpjumper expert). so following bikesdirect lead i'm going to list all my stuff (complete with specs and pictures) in the general discussion forum.
> 
> of course, since i'm not giving the mods a reach around or tossing their salad my free advertisement will probably get pulled.


I'll join in.

I've also got some new and near new stuff hangin' around. PM me for comparison pricing on Scott Spark 20, Scott Genius MC50, El Mariachi frame, Marin East Peaks. Most in medium, mostly '07's, with one '06.

This could get fun.


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## Jake Pay (Dec 27, 2006)

kapusta,

What size is that there GT*?*

~Jake


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

as a courtesy to those who are surfing the web looking for bike specials this weekend i just wanted to reiterate, for comparison purposes, that this virtually new surly singlespeed can be had for just $375 shipping included to the 48 if purchased this weekend.










pm if interested or for more info to make an informed comparison.

later this week i am expecting a very low mile 2007 stumpjumper expert to become available. stay tuned for comparison info, pics, and pricing.

happy hunting internet shoppers!


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## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

2004 Azonic Recoil.

Built with 888R, Romic, Thomson seatpost, Truvativ cockpit, Azonic hubs laced to EX729s, XT shifter/der. , hone cranks.

Of course, you know my competitors are more expensive.

PM if interested.

(Kapusta, if that thing's a medium I just might be interested.)


----------



## _I_ (Jun 23, 2007)

DrNickels said:


> You see Mike not everyone is an idiot. Some people look beyond just spec sheets and products, they look at what lies underneath a name. I suggested those books to you because they are good books and they can help in an area you really seem to be lacking in; Customer Service. You truly do lack in this area and I've seen it through friends who have been bent over by your customer warranty. I've seen it when they have to dish out $100 to have something fixed at the LBS when if they had spent a few more dollars could have had it done for free under a LBS service plan.
> 
> Mike, you are screwing the pooch on customer service. You can dance around it and post other specs up and another set of product spam and tell us how you listen to customers, but the truth is you aren't listening to customers. You are taking ideas that seem popular and then running with them and dishing out the same mediocre stale customer service and support. Price isn't everything in business. If you think it is you will be able to make a living but you are just shy of a pimp that way. I enjoy that a man can play the sob story and say how he only wants to help people afford good bikes then in the next post talk about buying a new BMW every year, but won't anymore because they aren't where it's at. Wow.


The thing is, to many price IS everything. I for one, and I suspect many others feel the same way, am not looking to pay an overhead on a bike to get any kind of service later unless it was defective in the first place.

I'm not suggesting anyone else needs to agree, that's why it is good that there are multiple options when buying a bike. I've done the math before and found that if over 20% of the cost is cut, I come out better not to pay an overhead on everything I buy because less than 20% of those purchases ever end up having any problems.

Something relatively expensive and /mission/ critical like a car, I'd certainly want a better support and warranty on but on lesser items, show me the savings I can have by DIY and I'm liking that a lot. Besides, I tend to go over a bike myself anyway, even if a LBS were to check, adjust, tweak one I'd still double-check everything and might as well have DIY. If something breaks, warranty be damned, that's why I chose to buy a bike that had components from manufacturers I had some confidence in instead of the $75 Walmart special.

IMO, make the choice. Either accept you're getting less support to save money, or pay more in the first place. Just don't think you can pay less then later expect the same support as someone that paid more. This is a pretty universal factor in consumer goods, that support costs real money even if it seemed hidden in the initial purchase price.


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

monogod said:


> ...virtually new surly singlespeed can be had for just $375 shipping included to the 48 if purchased this weekend....later this week i am expecting a very low mile 2007 stumpjumper expert to become available. stay tuned for comparison info, pics, and pricing....


Hey, the 80's called, they want that fork off that Surley back. What's the warrenty


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

rabidweasel999 said:


> 2004 Azonic Recoil....


did you lose a bet and had to ride that piece of junk? I never knew walmart used paris hilton to design bikes


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## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> did you lose a bet and had to ride that piece of junk?


Leave your mother out of this.


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

rabidweasel999 said:


> Leave your mother out of this.


seriously, that is one stupid looking bike, what were you thinking? Good luck selling it, you'll need it. Try not using the pix in your ad


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Jake Pay said:


> kapusta,
> 
> What size is that there GT*?*
> 
> ~Jake


Seat tube is 16" to the center of top tube, 18-1/4" to the top of the seat tube (both measured from the center of the bb). The effective tt is a little hard to measure now, I estimate about 22".


----------



## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> seriously, that is one stupid looking bike, what were you thinking? Good luck selling it, you'll need it. Try not using the pix in your ad


Good luck accomplishing anything other than being an ass in your life, you'll need it.

Let's see your pretty bike.

Oh, yeah, looking at your profile, your Motobecane with it's sweet 29 inch wheels and RockShox Tora is the very pinnacle of mountain bike style and flair.

Plus it's made by Motobecane.


----------



## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

OK, fine, you win. It's fugly but it's MY fugly. 

Anyone interested in buying, please disregard this post.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rabidweasel999 said:


> 2004 Azonic Recoil.
> 
> Built with 888R, Romic, Thomson seatpost, Truvativ cockpit, Azonic hubs laced to EX729s, XT shifter/der. , hone cranks.
> 
> ...


See the sizing info I gave above.

How much are you asking for the Azonic? You can PM me if you'd like.

I'll trade you for the GT frame


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## _I_ (Jun 23, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> Hey, the 80's called, they want that fork off that Surley back. What's the warrenty


I'll take the fork, been thinking about building something old-school. I'm not seriously looking to buy it but when I have the time...

BTW, what's with the trolling? It may be tacky advertising stuff in a Motobecane discussion thread but two/three/four wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

pursuiter said:


> What's the warrenty


I am guessing it is typical for what you could expect from any honest seller of used equipment. Realistically, for all intents and practical purposes, it's probably not much different than BD's policy for new stuff.


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

rabidweasel999 said:


> ...your Motobecane with it's sweet 29 inch wheels and RockShox Tora is the very pinnacle of mountain bike style and flair....


How does that song go..."It's not the meat, it's the motion...". I love how all these bikes you're selling are "lightly used", who'd guessed


----------



## rabidweasel999 (Oct 22, 2006)

Whatever, Moto whore.

I'm sure Mike is setting you up with some free bikes - are you his cousin or something? Does spamming run in the family?


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

rabidweasel999 said:


> Whatever, Moto whore.


It's Moto s**t, a whore gets paid :thumbsup: 


> I'm sure Mike is setting you up with some free bikes - are you his cousin or something? Does spamming run in the family?


sadly, it's a one sided affair. I send money, then Mike sends me bikes.

Mike, they think I should get free bikes, I'll take a Ti29er with the trail package, you know my address


----------



## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

_I_ said:


> BTW, what's with the trolling? It may be tacky advertising stuff in a Motobecane discussion thread but two/three/four wrongs don't make a right.


You may want to get used to it.


----------



## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

Man, do I ever love MTBR now! :lol:!!!

What size is that Surly? I need another non suspension corrected piece of steel.


----------



## KingCrimson (Jun 26, 2008)

Man, do I ever love MTBR now! :lol:!!!

What size is that Surly? I need another non suspension corrected piece of steel.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> I love how all these bikes you're selling are "lightly used", who'd guessed


i'm the one with the "lightly used" bikes, douchebag. and as usual your foot is planted securely in your mouth.

the reason they're lightly used? the surly frame was an extra that was hanging in a buddy's garage for several years. then it went to another's, and then to me in a trade, then i built a monster cross out of it and rode it a couple of times, and now it's for sale.

the stumpy had only been ridden 5 or 6 times when i picked it up to take to moab late last year. wanted to try out a full sussy there as i'd only ridden moab ss/rigid up to that point. it's gotten virtually no ride time once i got home as i ride 29er's so it only makes sense to sell it.

i would tell you to get your facts straight so you can avoid making an arse out of yourself but you seem to enjoy it so much that it's obviously your goal.

mission accomplished! :thumbsup:


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

KingCrimson said:


> Man, do I ever love MTBR now! :lol:!!!
> 
> What size is that Surly? I need another non suspension corrected piece of steel.


seat tube measurement is 21.5 center to center and the top tube is just shy of 24" center to center.

pm if interested.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

_I_ said:


> BTW, what's with the trolling? It may be tacky advertising stuff in a Motobecane discussion thread but two/three/four wrongs don't make a right.


no one is advertising anything, bro.

we are simply providing pictures, specs, and prices of bikes currently available for sale for comparison purposes.


----------



## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

damn mono wish that bike wasn't too large for me otherwise I'd be picking up that surly....

too bad you can't sell **** like mike then you could tell me that it's actually better to ride a bike 2 inches too large and that your bike is specially corrected to have better geometry so your surly would fit a rider of an 18 inch or 17.5 inch frame perfectly.

Then you'd post a link with another bike of the same measurement and tell me how people my size are reporting awesome rides and if they aren't well it's because they are too busy enjoying their new oversized bike to post on here!

Then you'd make another account, come on and ask the same question about sizing. Then repeat with another account and say something like "just ordered another piece of your garbage **** on the internets and can't wait to rub my nasty **** all over it up and down the street. Mike will you anal rape me? I love you. awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


Well it might not be those exact words but something along those lines?


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

DrNickels said:


> Well it might not be those exact words but something along those lines?


you hit it right on the head! :thumbsup: :lol:

and no, i'm not going to lie to you and tell you that this bike will magically fit you; but you should really buy the bike anyway because it's such a good price that the money you save will totally make up for the lack of warranty and size discrepancy.

and don't worry about the searing, shooting pain as your junk continuously smashes the top tube... instead just focus on all the $$$ you saved!


----------



## _I_ (Jun 23, 2007)

monogod said:


> no one is advertising anything, bro.
> 
> we are simply providing pictures, specs, and prices of bikes currently available for sale for comparison purposes.


I tend to disagree. Let's be real, no?


----------



## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

_I_ said:


> I tend to disagree. Let's be real, no?


It's called making a point. Have you been reading the thread?


----------



## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

monogod said:


> ...i would tell you to get your facts straight....


I have my facts straight, Waxer  You should try riding, it's really fun!


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> I have my facts straight


well, actually you don't. and the more you post the more apparent it becomes.

take the following for example...



pursuiter said:


> You should try riding, it's really fun!


if you had your facts straight you would know that i get in over 10k miles a year.

you must really like the taste of your foot to keep it in your mouth so much... :lol:


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

mono-wax said:


> well, actually you don't....


Hey, MonoWax, isn't it about time for you to threaten a class action law suit against BD. Then a slander suit against me :thumbsup:


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

monogod said:


> you hit it right on the head! :thumbsup: :lol:
> 
> and no, i'm not going to lie to you and tell you that this bike will magically fit you; but you should really buy the bike anyway because it's such a good price that the money you save will totally make up for the lack of warranty and size discrepancy.
> 
> and don't worry about the searing, shooting pain as your junk continuously smashes the top tube... instead just focus on all the $$$ you saved!


And don't forget choices. I like choices. Choices are good. Do you like choices? I like choices. Did I mention I like choices?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

pieceofshiter said:


> Hey, MonoWax, isn't it about time for you to threaten a class action law suit against BD. Then a slander suit against me


never. the Constitution protects the freedom of speech even of idiots. thus, you have the right to babble incoherently to your heart's content despite the fact that you clearly have no clue wtf you're talking about.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

kapusta said:


> And don't forget choices. I like choices. Choices are good. Do you like choices? I like choices. Did I mention I like choices?


Hey, in the same spirit, you should see Mr Percussive's posts now. Within hours of getting word that Chumba is sponsoring him, he starts peddling their bikes before he even received his. Someone in the EU just asked about a different bike altogether, and of course, he posts about his F5 that he only received a few hours ago.

I asked him to include in his sig that he's chumba sponsored, not just their name, but of course, I'm sure he won't have any of that. That's another problem on the forums.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2008)

What you guys don't realize is that you won't win. BD and Motobecane will last longer than you, as will their threads. In the meantime you're just making yourselves look stupid "proving a point". In the future this will look like a tattoo you wish you hadn't gotten.

If you are right, then you are only further degrading the credibility of this forum. If you are wrong, you are only making yourselves look rather childish.

Damned if you do, damed if you don't. 

I'm never growing up so I emphasize, but I'm not a whiner, and I was BARELY smart enough not to get tattooed. I got pierced a couple of times, another story...

Many will likely make a point to resurrect this post when they receive their preordered purchases from BD and I'll join them if I'm satisfied. My Fly is going straight to the Alps, heaven help me if anything breaks, but I suspect it will work fine.

If you had any dignity you'd edit your posts away and petition the MTBR organization handle this. 

At the end of the day it's about the bikes and the riders. Give the newbies you are trying to protect some credit. If they are smart enough to find mtbr.com, they are smart enough to find the pros and cons of buying online, sight unseen.

G.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

I can't believe anyone can still defend the misrepresentations from BD. Here's another example from a new Motobecane owner:



rimugu said:


> I got a Fantom Trail, so far, it looks good, but it sure seems like it weights more than the 26.5-28.5 pounds advertised. I will confirm that later.
> 
> These are big bicycles, I got a 16" and it looks like is 17" or maybe even 19".
> 
> We'll see how it handles later. If I can get a seat bag for the tools. I don't know why I was expecting a more browner color, not that the grey color is bad, in fact it was better than I was expecting.





rimugu said:


> Digital bathroom scale showed 31.3 pounds for the smallest Fantom Trail.
> Kind of disappointing for me, as the weight was what separated apart from other options.
> 
> Not a bad bike, but I will have some issues trusting bikesdirect again.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> I can't believe anyone can still defend the misrepresentations from BD. Here's another example from a new Motobecane owner:


Let's see
if there is a post that is negative about BD - it must be a real customer - not a bike shop

if there is a positive post about BD - it must have been made by a 'shill' - not by a real customers

Here is the bottom line - those that do not like us; should buy somewhere else
Those that think we offer a great value; should give us a try

Vast majority of our customers are shocked at the value they get; our repeat customer group is rather large. A small percentage are not happy. By the way, our ratio is probably the same as any other seller, any other brand, or any other business.

I think anyone can find lots of negative posts about every brand out there; and the more units sold; the more negative posts.

I do not think there is a single large seller with 100% customer satisfaction - although we all try.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> Let's see
> if there is a post that is negative about BD - it must be a real customer - not a bike shop
> 
> if there is a positive post about BD - it must have been made by a 'shill' - not by a real customers
> ...


Why do I see more negative posts about your brands than any of the others? Why do you *never* address those negative posts by changing your sucky policies or misrepresentative advertising? Why are you the only large (?) seller that advertises on the public discussion forums of MTBR?


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Why do I see more negative posts about your brands than any of the others? Why do you *never* address those negative posts by changing your sucky policies or misrepresentative advertising? Why are you the only large (?) seller that advertises on the public discussion forums of MTBR?


You do not see things which you do not want to see. [thus your incorrect statements]
But do not feel too bad about it; that problem is common amoung those with an agenda

Why do those with an agenda not have the good sense to show some balance?


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> You do not see things which you do not want to see. [thus your incorrect statements]
> But do not feel too bad about it; that problem is common amoung those with an agenda
> 
> Why do those with an agenda not have the good sense to show some balance?


OK, you answer my questions and I'll answer yours. What are you afraid of?


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Why do those with an agenda not have the good sense to show some balance?


One could be forgiven for asking you exactly the same question.

You gain little respect (and much contempt) for your repeated presence in this thread - the barely veiled advertisements dont help your cause much either.

As several people have said - you would have done yourself far less damage by avoiding responding to this thread... as it is, you have simply added ammunition by the shedload to those that want to flame you.
And yes, ill admit, there are things you have said and done in this thread that shock, humour, and disgust me - you have gained yourself no respect from me (not that it matters as I am not a potential customer because I live outside the US ofc, so my opinion doesnt matter to you).

If you really want to save face - youd be better apologising for all those thinly disguised free adverts and slurs on people in this thread and getting out with as much respect intact as you can.. the longer it goes on (with your participation) the less respect/credibility you have on these boards.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

EnglishT said:


> (not that it matters as I am not a potential customer because I live outside the US ofc, so my opinion doesnt matter to you).
> 
> .


The fact that you live outside the USA is not the reason your opinion does not matter to me.
The fact that I am going to sell every bike I can get is not the reason your opinion does not matter to me.

The reason your opinion and the opinion of a few other posters in this thread does not matter to me is due to my beleif that these are not real opinions of thoughtful honest cyclists; they are just posts designed to start fights and watch things burn.

The balanced posts by those that have both positive and negative things to say about us and our competitors, say a lot. Thoughtful comments about how I and/or others can take steps that would benefit cyclists matter a lot. Input about what is right and what is wrong about the industry and its members that is well written and rational can change things in a positive manner.

I am not just looking for change; I want positive change.


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## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

> The reason your opinion and the opinion of a few other posters in this thread does not matter to me is due to my beleif that these are not real opinions of thoughtful honest cyclists; they are just posts designed to start fights and watch things burn.


I am pretty sure even the people who flamed you are thoughtful, honest cyclists (well except for pursuiter he hasn't contributed anything but venom in his entire existence on this site!), and they are giving their opinions on why they do not like your company and giving their opinion on why motobecane gets a bad rap. As for starting fights I think you have mainly yourself to blame there. You come into a thread, hawk your wares like a used car salesman or an ambulance chasing lawyer, discount anyone's opinion who says anything negative about your company, insult them to boot, then counter any argument with an off topic, not to mention illegal advertisement.

Mike, the reason your opinion and the opinions of your shady looking "supporters" do not matter to me or the other people against you in this thread is because you are a shady business owner who is using this site as a free publicity outlet. You aren't really contributing any ideas to this thread, you simply counter arguments made against your company and your products by placing an advertisement. As many posters have said you would have been better off not joining in especially if all you were going to contribute is advertisements. If you truly have all these supporters then let them defend you and your company and keep your nose out of it?

What you are doing is the same as if I posted a thread saying "Why do Gary Fisher Frames Break?" then people start posting negative things, then the owner of Gary Fisher starts insulting those customers, and instead of answering questions he just starts posting links to GF bikes and talking about how great the components are and who cares if a frame breaks, they do break because everything breaks...etc. Gary Fisher would never do that and you know why? Because they as a company know they have problems, they take care of the customer (most of the time a few do fall through the cracks as with any business), and they fix problems when they occur. Because of these reasons I had no problem going out and buying an 08 Cobia. I've had no trouble with it and if/when I do I will get it warranted and buy another.



> The balanced posts by those that have both positive and negative things to say about us and our competitors, say a lot. Thoughtful comments about how I and/or others can take steps that would benefit cyclists matter a lot. Input about what is right and what is wrong about the industry and its members that is well written and rational can change things in a positive manner.


Mike even your detractors have posted positive and negative things about the industry, we've even said positive and negative things about your company and your product, but you always just side step the negatives and post an advertisement instead. Many have told you exactly how to change your business to be more positive. Simply provide a better warranty and actually take care of your customers. I can do a lot of my own wrench work, but what is the sense in me doing my own wrench work if you say it voids my warranty because a trained bike mechanic has not done the work? Sure I get a cheaper price up front, but if all my service to keep my warranty needs done then I am paying for service at a LBS to keep my warranty valid so there goes my savings of buying the bike online from you. It's a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation.

So just be honest Mike the only reason you don't care about English T's comments is because he doesn't fully support your opinion and in fact counters you on your behavior in this thread. Same reason you don't care about most of the other opinions in this thread because they go against your self-worth. I get it Mike, your only niche in the market is cheap bikes through the internet, spin it however you want but it comes down to the best components on the cheapest piece of gas pipe you can find through mail order. You are basically one step above Walmart, only with a worse customer service program. Fix it and stop posting ads in here because it's just plain obnoxious. Spend some of your cash and pay for an ad like everyone else.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

DrNickels said:


> I am pretty sure even the people who flamed you are thoughtful, honest cyclists (well except for pursuiter he hasn't contributed anything but venom in his entire existence on this site!)....


LOL, another run on rant, you must have too much time on your hands. Why don't you go for a ride, it's really fun :thumbsup:


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

DrNickels said:


> I get it Mike, your only niche in the market is cheap bikes through the internet, spin it however you want but it comes down to the best components on the cheapest piece of gas pipe you can find through mail order.


When you are willing to post statements that are clearly untrue; there is no reason for anyone to listen to anything you say.

Fly Team Ti not only has a component selection that is top of the line; but also has a frame that costs more oem than any production aluminum, steel, or CF frame sold in any shop in the USA .

Your statements insults all the magazines that have stated otherwise and all the cyclists who have posted their opinions of this world class hardtail.










Then we use on several other bikes the exact same frame used by several other high grade brands - you insult those companies and their customers too. Then we use the same builder and tubing as other high grade brands - you insult that builder and their workmanship {without even knowing who they are}

Does this say something about ADK, Maxway, Advanced, Trek, Surly, Jamies, Specialized, Felt, Ideal, Kinesis, UEC, Kona, Bottecchia, LouisGarneau, Martec etc OR DOES IT SAY SOMETHING ABOUT YOU? {just wondering}


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> Then we use on several other bikes the exact same frame used by several other high grade brands - you insult those companies and their customers too. Then we use the same builder and tubing as other high grade brands - you insult that builder and their workmanship {without even knowing who they are}


Which frames are you referring to, and which models from other companies are they identical to? You can answer this quite simply, just list your bike and the identical model from the other major brand.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

kapusta said:


> Which frames are you referring to, and which models from other companies are they identical to? You can answer this quite simply, just list your bike and the identical model from the other major brand.


Yes please, do tell. I'm curious now.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

kapusta said:


> Which frames are you referring to, and which models from other companies are they identical to? You can answer this quite simply, just list your bike and the identical model from the other major brand.


That info is posted all over the net on dozens of models [check on BF, RBR, and here]. There is a wealth of data on this on the web; anyone who is interested can find it.

I do not post that information as I do not genaerlly name other brands in posts - but can confirm it is the case in dozens of models. A little work and anyone can spot it; very clear to those that are paying attention. {in fact, I think someone posted about one of our 29ers in this thread.

In addition, it should be clear to any person in the oem / import biz - frame factories are in the business to sell frames. Few bike frames are covered by patents. Thus anyone can go to frame facrory X and ask for the same model as is used by brand Z. Simple and common.


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## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> When you are willing to post statements that are clearly untrue; there is no reason for anyone to listen to anything you say.
> 
> _<_insert not even disguised advert here (I have removed because I will not help him by repeating it_>_


Making such statements really wont help anything here. People are getting annoyed at how you are responding in this thread, and you cannot exactly claim that you have not made untrue statements (at times) during its progression.

Mike - You stated that I have not made positive comments, perhaps you should read back on everything Ive said, because you will find that I have.
Though those said positive comments are amongst a wealth of negatives - perhaps you should take it that im trying to tell you something, instead of passing me off as a hater (which, before the start of this thread, I was not - due to your attitude, right now I am a fan of your business).

Your repeated ad's and mistruths (lies is a strong word, spinning opinions isnt quite the same - though there have been a few of those too) have made you NO friends, and several enemies.



bikesdirect said:


> I do not genaerlly name other brands in posts


Well mike - this is a little something called hypocrisy (and is also untrue) - it certainly isnt a quality that people like to see in a salesman.
Its ok to name your own brand and state the name often, but not the names of other companies?

I dont see how you can say you dont name other brands, when in this thread alone you have named many, following it with the statement that yours is better value or a better bike overall.
The thing is, people just dont like this.

Honesty can go along way - and not just because it looks bad to lie infront of customers.
Its good to be honest with yourself about what people write here - and if you actually read and take it in (instead of concentrating on the best way to rebuke and advertise) then you might find some ways to improve your business and its reputation.

Thing is, you seem to have an OK product base - pricewise, i will not argue that you really have something. But a decent product at a decent price (note: price, not value, is the term used deliberately) will not sell as well as it could if you have a bad reputation - amongst certain posts meant only to be inflamatory, there have been quite a few that actually make valid points worth listening to. That said, your own attitude in this thread has meant that it has gotten less and less useful, and more and more flamed - there is a message that you can take from this also - its that while this kind of tradesmanship (the slimy dealer method) might work with some, you will not fool everyone with it and when you are caught out the results can get quite ugly.

I would seriously encourage you to reread the whole thread and totally rethink the way you view it - do not reply to those who are obviously only posting for the sake of argument, but where posts make valid points read and take note.

And please, cut the advertising, its REALLY getting old, and you are not fooling anyone - if you really are selling your bikes as well as you say you are, you shouldnt need to make such poor attempts at free advertisement (you should be able to get proper advertising space).


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> And then there is the question of how much a 23 lb HT 29er should cost with all top end stuff....


When are these going to be available? I really want a Ti29er


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

> That info is posted all over the net on dozens of models [check on BF, RBR, and here]. There is a wealth of data on this on the web; anyone who is interested can find it.


Care to post some links? I see a lot of vague references to "big name brands", etc., and that these come from the same factories that the other companies use, but I have never seen references to particular models being the same. I'm not saying it is untrue, but I am skeptical, and seeing as this is a key selling point, I think it would be fair to ask for more specifics. You have spent an enormous amount of time on this thread, surely a few minutes to post some links to verify your claim would be worth your time?

What is BF? I've followed a few threads on RBR before buying the Windsor Falkirk for my GF, but I never saw any specifics that address what you are claiming.



> I do not post that information as I do not genaerlly name other brands in posts -





> Does this say something about ADK, Maxway, Advanced, Trek, Surly, Jamies, Specialized, Felt, Ideal, Kinesis, UEC, Kona, Bottecchia, LouisGarneau, Martec etc............


:skep:


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

EnglishT said:


> .
> Its ok to name your own brand and state the name often, but not the names of other companies?
> 
> (you should be able to get proper advertising space).


If you read the hundreds of posts I have made on MTBR, RBR, and BF - you will find that I generally do not name other brands in a way that could be looked at as negative.

I have posted several good things about other brands - but I am not about to post Brand X uses the same exact Frame as our Model Z. If consomers notice they are the same and post that - so be it.

As for advertising - I do advertise a lot on MTBR, BF, RBR, and you will also see our ads on other sites. [our MTBR ads are on the home page]

I like supporting bike forum type sites and increase the amount that we do each year.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> If you read the hundreds of posts I have made on MTBR, RBR, and BF - you will find that I generally do not name other brands in a way that could be looked at as negative.


So, I'm confused. You are worried that naming the other brands that use the same frames you purchase would reflect on their company negatively? I see no reason why if you are going to stand by the statement that your frames are as good as bike store brand frames you shouldn't list the brands and models that they are identical to.

And I think this whole concept that you don't respond to people unless they say something nice about your product is downright childish. Just because someone has a question about your company that may not reflect positively on your product, their not worth addressing all of a sudden? The purpose of these forums are to have discussions about products and experiences related to mountain biking, not to blow sunshine up your butt about your bikes. You have the opportunity to change opinions about your bikes by participating in a discussion here, stop sidestepping the questions that people are asking you!


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## RXL (Feb 8, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> I think this is the same fork as the surly
> there are a limited number of makers of high-grade steel frames
> and of investment chrown forks
> I am fairly sure we use the same as surly on many bikes


.
.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

zarr said:


> I am trying to understand why Motobecane is thought of by some as the lower rung of the MTB ladder.Is it a status thing? That people of a particular income level wouldn't ride one because of their positions in society? Or is it that thet are just not good bikes? How do Motos compare to big name bikes? Are they just as good? Do they provide people with not a lot of money to spend with a great deal? If that's the case, why aren't they more recommended?


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## gregg (Sep 30, 2000)

Alright, I'm putting a fork in this one...it's done.

A lot of talk that really isn't going anywhere.

-gregg kato, Site Manager Mtbr.com

(p.s. And for the record, the Cannondale Super Six is made in Bedford, PA, not overseas. I have that assurance direct from a person who is high up in the Cannondale Sports Group.)


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