# Need a larger chainring...



## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

...and not sure what size. I currently have a 46t one, but I'm having a lot of issues with it.

Thought I'd list each one, as there may be alternative solutions that as a beginner I wouldn't know/consider. I'm listing them in order of most annoying to least, with least being a very relative term.

I feel I could take on hills faster if I had a larger chainring to power into when building momentum before ascending. The 46t does well enough most of the time, but the times it's not enough are increasing and it's a real killjoy.

As above with gaining momentum, but even worse on flats and gently rolling stuff.

And last of all, I called our group out on a race after a ride up at our local park and my riding mentor and MTB group leader took me on...I was sO sMOKING them until there was this little shallow descent where I should have been able to gain even more momentum, but instead fricking maxed out my gears and was spinning out, at which point my mentor powered the decent and up a hill I should have easily beat him on. I don't want that happening again.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

How fast were you going? I'm on 2x9 32/22 and 11/34 cassette, I'm plenty fast and not need more gear.

If you are running 46t big ring and 11sprocket on a 175mm length crank pedaling at 90cadance it almost 30mph. That's double the recommended speed already. You said you spin out so I assume about 110 rpm it's 40mph on a 46t.

It's quite dangerous to travel that fast on a shared trail , may be you should work on smoking the climb. There are plenty of ways to have fun on the trail, going white knuckle speed is just not safe.

I know it's thrilling but it just doesn't prove that you have better skill than others. However if you can maintain say 15 Mhp by maintaining speed thru corners or rougher parts it's more challenging and more fun:thumbsup: 

You should smack some sense into your mentor if he encouraged that you get a better chainring to go faster on the descend. I would never recommend that, in fact I'd recommend the opposite race, no pedal coast only. This would teach you to preserve momentum.:thumbsup:


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

A larger chain ring is actually not going to help a whole lot. The amount of speed you can get from the same cadence with increasing chain ring size is linear. So in order to go 10% faster, you'd need about 5 more teeth - a 51t ring. That's really not a MTB size; I doubt they're even available for the 4-bolt cranks most of us have these days. I don't think you've ever posted the bolt pattern for your crank - if it's one of the MTB five-bolt cranks, it's possible that you can get a new set of chain rings sized for a road bike. But that'll be hard to find.

I forget - are your cogs on a cassette or a freewheel? How many speeds? What spacing do you have? (135mm vs. something narrower)

I ask because if your smallest cog is 14 teeth, you'd be able to go a little more than 6 mph faster with an 11t cog, assuming you spin out around 100 rpm. The difference if you get a 50t chain ring is more like 2 mph, and it makes the shift from your middle ring to your big ring even bigger, leading to a really annoying shift pattern.

If you already have a contemporary cassette with an 11t small cog, you might consider replacing the entire crankset. If a road triple will fit, you can get as big as a 60t chain ring, although I doubt you'd want it. 52/42/30 and 50/39/30 are both common sets of chain rings. I think the shift patterns would be a little nicer on the 50/39/30, but the other one offers higher gears. Make sure you can actually get this thing on your bike, though. Sometimes the chain stay won't clear the biggest chain ring, and sometimes the front derailleur can't be mounted high enough.

Of course, there's always getting a bike with 26" wheels. The larger wheels effectively increase your gear ratio.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

I meant to add how I use what I have now...on my largest chainring, I use all the cogs. Next, I use my smallest chainring with the granny cog (sorry, that's probably not the correct terminology,) although I am starting to use the next harder one up more...a trend I'm sure will continue. The only reason I really use the middle chainring at all is to get back to the 46t.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

mimi1885 said:


> How fast were you going? I'm on 2x9 32/22 and 11/34 cassette, I'm plenty fast and not need more gear.
> 
> If you are running 46t big ring and 11sprocket on a 175mm length crank pedaling at 90cadance it almost 30mph. That's double the recommended speed already. You said you spin out so I assume about 110 rpm it's 40mph on a 46t.
> 
> ...


Sorry, Mimi. I don't think I wrote my post all that well and it wasn't very clear.

I should have stated for people who aren't familiar with the Terry Jacaranda that it is not an average bike, so I can understand people assuming specifications that it doesn't have.

For instance, I have 24 inch wheels, as to the crank length, if you tell me what it is and how to measure it, I'll let you know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were smaller too.

As for speeding in the race, we were actually on the road home. So even though we were on MTBs we were doing a road race with MTBs. Not an MTB race on trails.

Not sure about other MTBRs, but I use mine quite a bit on the road. I've been known to do 40 plus mile road rides on her in an afternoon with a couple pretty steep ascents and I've found it really helps my endurance when I'm off road. Also, not sure about others, but when I ride my bike on the road I routinely do somewhere in the 30's on descents. And you are right, I spin out at 110rpm, once in a while I can get a bit higher, but not for long.

When you said I should work on smoking the climbs, I listed that as my number one priority, but I guess that didn't come across quite clearly.

As for speeding down trails, I have a rigid bike and take technical downhill painfully slow. I can't afford to do otherwise. Rigid bikes are not forgiving.

Like you, I take great care never to speed on shared trails and in fact my mentor taught me to always get off my bike and wait for equestrians to make eye contact with me and then wait for them to signal that it's okay for me to get back on my bike and ride. We love the smile it puts on their faces. You can tell they really appreciate the thought. I'm trying hard to learn to be a good ambassador for our sport and sharing trails well is certainly key, as is trail maintenance and supporting the parks that we use.

Thanks for your input.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

AndrwSwitch!

I saw earlier you were looking over my thread and was really happy cause I knew the advice I'd need was coming my way. I'm not very educated about all the things you posted and how to measure/size things up, so I'm off to google to figure out how to tell you what you need to know. Thanks so much for showing up!!!


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

Mimi...was just re-reading my original post and now totally understand the confusion. When I said I wanted to take down hills faster, I meant take down as in knock out hills/climbs faster, not go downhill faster. I'm still pretty green when it comes to MTB lingo and abbreviations. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Kaizer (Jul 19, 2010)

Hi Tankgirl, IIRC you're also running rigid right? I assume that means you're pedaling while standing instead of sitting down and spin right? Hence the lower cadence?

Congrats on smoking your mentor! I hope one day I'm able to do that too...


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## cobba (Apr 5, 2007)

Have a play around with this: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/index.html

You'll see gain ratios, meters developed and MPH/KPH at different RPM with the different gear ratios.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

Kaizer said:


> Hi Tankgirl, IIRC you're also running rigid right? I assume that means you're pedaling while standing instead of sitting down and spin right? Hence the lower cadence?
> 
> Congrats on smoking your mentor! I hope one day I'm able to do that too...


You're right, I ride rigid and I'm out of the saddle by varying degrees most of the time.

Thanks for the congrats, I so owe them to my mentor and everyone I ride with in my MTB group. My mentor was really proud of me too. The first time I smoked him up a hill, he thought it was someone else coming up, and the look on his face was priceless. For anyone who is a beginner, I can't recommend riding with a group enough. Mine has been amazing and I can't believe how far I've come in four months. It's hard to believe that when I first started, doing a 600 foot climb over four miles would totally kick my butt.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

btw, Kaizer, meant to tell you before the time change here and early sunsets started, I was averaging at least 60 miles a week. Try that if you can and let me know when you smoke yours!!! I'll bet you'll do better than my four months


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Tank Girl said:


> Mimi...was just re-reading my original post and now totally understand the confusion. When I said I wanted to take down hills faster, I meant take down as in knock out hills/climbs faster, not go downhill faster. I'm still pretty green when it comes to MTB lingo and abbreviations. Sorry for the confusion.


All good, thanks for clearing up for me. On the road it's all good. Are you on a Triple ring? From reading your post, are you only using one gear on the small ring, and the rest on large one?

Glad to hear that you are a good ambassador, and keeping our sport thrive.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

One of the key stats for figuring out what you can do with a crank is Bolt Circle Diameter. I should have mentioned it in the first place. There are a ton of patterns that have been present on bikes at one time or another. The most common patterns have five bolts, including some older mountain bike cranks. Most MTB cranks only have four bolts; the most common diameter for the circle they define is 104 mm. There are two common sizes for road bikes, with another size involved when there's a granny, and there's an older size that mountain bikes used to use and touring bikes use lately.

The Late, Great Sheldon Brown has a crib sheet for this, including the piece of information you may need to figure out what you've got.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html

He doesn't specify the largest ring available for any given size - there really isn't one. However, if you're using a crank typically intended for off-road use, finding something larger than 48t is going to be really hard.

Sugino makes a 110/74 triple. I think that might be a good combination of bolt circle sizes - you can have as low as a 24t granny, and some ridiculously big chain rings - up to 61t. Both BCDs are very common, too, which is a plus - easy availability of parts.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

mimi1885 said:


> All good, thanks for clearing up for me. On the road it's all good. Are you on a Triple ring? From reading your post, are you only using one gear on the small ring, and the rest on large one?
> 
> Glad to hear that you are a good ambassador, and keeping our sport thrive.


Hi Mimi!

It was definately one of those subtle wording things that happen with languages. I have a little bit of five...Spanish, French, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Italian. Definately not fluent, but could get by once in country for a bit....though you'd get a kick out of some of my lost in translation stories...frickin' hysterical.

Anyhow, it was pretty evident there was a clarity issue with my post after reading yours. Also, without realizing it, I was writing it as if addressing people who have a pretty extensive history with me and my bike through my Downhill Techniques for a Beginner Riding a Rigid thread.

Have a good one and thanks for the post back:thumbsup:

Edit: yes, you are right. I generally only use one gear on the small ring and the rest on the large. I only use the middle ring long enough to get back to the large ring.


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

If you are using a crank with a 104 BCD, I have found a couple of 48T rings for you. Found them at BTI. Your LBS should be able to order them for you from BTI. But FYI, depending on the model, they are not going to be cheap.

Did not find any type of 50T ring being manufactured by anyone.


Race Face Racering 9sp. - $74.00
Shimano M771/M761, M660, M583/M581, M510 - $120.00/$45.00/$40.00/$37.00
Truvativ TruShift Mountain steel ring - $25.00
Truvativ TruShift Mountain Aluminum ring - $50.00


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

My crankset is Shimano Deore DX (24/36/46 teeth) and I have 7 cogs in the rear ranging from 13-26 teeth, My five bolt crank has a BCD of 108mm. I'm having trouble determining if I have a cassette or a freewheel and not sure what spacing is, but if it's the actual gap between each cog, it's about 0.125 inches or 3.175mm.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks, Cobba for the link. I check it out and I'm thinking I must have input something wrong cause I find it hard to believe I could ever be doing forty miles an hour. I know I can do 35, because I passed one of those speed checker things they put out that tell you how fast you're driving. It made me laugh.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

Just so you know AndwSwitch, I gave this whole idea alot of thought today and have decided I'm going to leave well enough alone on this bike. Not only is she vintage, she is also a piece of history. When Georgena Terry saw pics posted of my bike out and about playing with the big boys, it really put a smile in her day. Ever since I got my bike, I have tried hard to keep her in original condition and only changed out parts that I really couldn't live with or had to be replaced. And the parts that were taken off I still have in a box somewhere.

I'm beginning to understand better each day why people keep a stable of bikes. Rigid ss is so calling my name, but from a stand point of building up my stable, getting an am or xc fs bike makes the most sense. It will open up more rides for me that I cannot pull off now with my rigid and I can use it as a tool to gain skills I can take back to my rigid with a much easier learning curve. 

While I really hate spinning out, I've decided to make my rides more challenging by trying to use only my large chainring. And also, frankly, decided more important than working on my speed at this point, is drilling on elemental skills. I've seen people recommend practicing turns around cones and working on trackstanding. Have you ever seen a skills workout routine posted anywhere?

btw, thanks frdandc for the info!


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

LOL. I was working my way through some of the technical issues involved in shoehorning higher gear ratios onto this bike.

I own four bikes myself - I'm definitely a believer in "horses for courses," although, much as I hate to admit it, only one of my bikes is actually a mountain bike. I think keeping your Jacaranda in close to a stock configuration is the way to go. I highly recommend getting a road bike soonish. Even an older one for $100 will be an improvement in your road riding experience, if it fits you.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

Wondering if you recommended me getting a road bike so I could get my need for speed out, or is there some other benefit I'm not considering?


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

btw, I looked up the gear ratio chart and supposedly when I am maxed out, I am doing about 40 mph. I find it very hard to believe I am doing that. Wouldn't it be possible to max out my gears, but do less the chart calculates?


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## rachelx1984 (Jan 7, 2011)

Have you thought of shifting to a more aerodynamic position on the downhills. The position on a mountain bike can be quite upright.

When I'm maxxed out, I always shift my weight back and get down low to reduce wind resistance. Really does make a difference!


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Tank Girl said:


> Wondering if you recommended me getting a road bike so I could get my need for speed out, or is there some other benefit I'm not considering?


There are a few.

You'll already have the right wheel size and gear ratios not to spin out on road descents, which it sounds like was the problem that motivated this thread in the first place. Road bikes are available down to some pretty small sizes, and poking through some other threads suggests that some of the smallest WSD bikes are built around a 650C wheel size. If you had to, there are even children's road bikes with 24" wheels, but that's probably not something you'll need to do - those bikes are very, very small, and a 650C-wheeled women's bike is already pretty small.

Road bikes handle better and when set up correctly are more comfortable on a longer ride.

And it saves the annoyance of wearing out your off-road tires, or messing around with alternate tire or wheel sets when switching one bike between road and off-road use. For a while, I was saying people with disc brakes should get 700C road wheels for their mountain bikes to do this, but a new wheelset is often as expensive as an old road bike that will outperform a mountain bike with road wheels anyway.

I guess you still have a little bit of a problem if you're riding your mountain bike to or from the trails, but once you've got some saddle time on a road bike, you'll probably just see that part of the ride as a warmup or a cool down, and the lack of top-end speed may not bother you as much.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Would her front derailleur even handle such large chainrings?

Personally, I wouldn't change much on a mountain bike for road rides unless I was going to dedicate it more to roads than trails.


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

haven't read the whole thread...but if you go bigger up front you run into clearance 'problems' mountain biking....

imagine bending that front saw blade chewing it over rocks & logs....

or throwing a chain/crashing and digging it into your shin/calf.....hurts like a mudderfugger...

just spin faster....think hamster on crack....

my .02


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Yes, No Problem*



s0ckeyeus said:


> Would her front derailleur even handle such large chainrings?


Front derailleur wont be an issue. It should handle a 50T no problem. I had a stock XT crank from that era. that came with a 50T ring.

Tank Girl: You would notice a bigger difference by getting a cassette with a 12T cog.
I don't know what's availble for 7spd anymore but you should be able to find a 12-25 or 12-24 cassette pretty easily.

Your crank is 110/74mm BCD. I have a larger ring I could send you for free if you want to go that route.

I've also got a Jacaranda S in the basement :thumbsup:


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Shayne said:


> Front derailleur wont be an issue. It should handle a 50T no problem. I had a stock XT crank from that era. that came with a 50T ring.


Could she still keep the 24T granny? I suppose even if it would fit, clearance wouldn't be wonderful.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

AndrwSwitch said:


> There are a few.
> 
> You'll already have the right wheel size and gear ratios not to spin out on road descents, which it sounds like was the problem that motivated this thread in the first place. Road bikes are available down to some pretty small sizes, and poking through some other threads suggests that some of the smallest WSD bikes are built around a 650C wheel size. If you had to, there are even children's road bikes with 24" wheels, but that's probably not something you'll need to do - those bikes are very, very small, and a 650C-wheeled women's bike is already pretty small.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the feedback, I really appreciate the way you always explain what you recommend and I get almost everything you're saying. The only thing I don't understand is how a road bike could be more comfortable and handle better than a mountain bike other than it could go faster.

With regard to comfort, I think I'm confused because when I ride on the road, it's the only time my bike feels plush. As for handling, my fat tires soak up all the road debris and train tracks and I don't feel much of it and would have thought it'd make handling easier...wondering where my thinking is wrong on this.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

s0ckeyeus said:


> Would her front derailleur even handle such large chainrings?
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't change much on a mountain bike for road rides unless I was going to dedicate it more to roads than trails.


You are right and I've decided to leave the set up as is. I realized today that while I know what I'm using when I climb and ride the flats, I don't really know what I'm using when I'm doing technical work, because I am so focused on negotiating my line. It may well be that I'm living on the middle ring and don't even know it.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

CHUM said:


> imagine bending that front saw blade chewing it over rocks & logs....
> 
> or throwing a chain/crashing and digging it into your shin/calf.....hurts like a mudderfugger...
> 
> ...


You are dead on about the front saw blade. My 46t has several worn down teeth and I was wondering how it happened, now I know.

As for throwing a chain and having it dig into my shin/calf, I didn't even realize that happens. If it does, I hope it happens on my left side to offset the 46t shark bite scar I have on the back of my right. (Don't you just love the clipless learning curve:madman: )

love the hamster on crack visual...reminds me of the saying...the wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

Shayne said:


> Your crank is 110/74mm BCD. I have a larger ring I could send you for free if you want to go that route.
> 
> I've also got a Jacaranda S in the basement :thumbsup:


Thanks, Shayne, that's sweet of you to offer, but I've decided to keep her as she is. Too cool that you have the Jacaranda S and thanks for telling me the exact specs on the crank, I just eyeballed it with a ruler because I couldn't find it posted anywhere on line. What year do you have? Mine is the 1993 rigid. Do you know if our set up is cassette or freewheel?


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Tank Girl said:


> Thanks so much for the feedback, I really appreciate the way you always explain what you recommend and I get almost everything you're saying. The only thing I don't understand is how a road bike could be more comfortable and handle better than a mountain bike other than it could go faster.
> 
> With regard to comfort, I think I'm confused because when I ride on the road, it's the only time my bike feels plush. As for handling, my fat tires soak up all the road debris and train tracks and I don't feel much of it and would have thought it'd make handling easier...wondering where my thinking is wrong on this.


For me, the important differences on a road bike are that the wheels and tires are lighter and narrower and my hands are closer together and palms-inward. The steer tube is steeper, and that's important too...

It's much, much easier to lay a road bike into a turn or pop it out, and the rolling resistance is less. Inflated to a sane pressure, probably a lot less than what's printed on the sidewall, it doesn't take much tire to give a plush ride on the road. So you can ride faster, with less work, and get in and out of turns faster. If you're worried about road debris, get tires that are in the wide end of road tires - like 28mm. However, it's possible to ride singletrack with 23mm tires. Don't let the occasional bit of debris or railroad crossing dictate the tire size you have for the miles and miles of asphalt.

My arms always get uncomfortable if I ride a flat bar bike for a long time on the road. Road handlebars don't have that problem. I think drop bars are a lot better than stopgap solutions like bar ends, too - I like it that my hands are only shoulder width when I ride my road bike. I feel more relaxed. And I already have an unfashionably narrow handlebar setup on my mountain bike. People cite multiple hand positions on road bars. It's nice, although I don't think it's that big a deal - current fashion, and I agree with this, is to spend about 90% of a ride on the hoods, using the other parts of the handlebar for occasional, fairly different sorts of riding, like sprinting, descending, or climbing something steep.

The steeper steer tube makes it easier to keep a road bike tracking straight on a climb. I don't think it's as important as the other stuff, though.

Riding position can be different or not - that's up to you. I think my road bikes have a slightly more forward-leaning position, but not hugely. I'm the same person, no matter which bike I happen to be on. I don't think that the riding position for road and XC should be that different, but I have a relatively narrow band of riding positions that are comfortable for me. So YMMV.

If you can find one that's not too far from your size, try it. They do take some getting used to and not everyone likes them, but I think that actually riding a road bike would do a better job selling it than I can.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks, AndrwSwitch, for all your help. I'll definately try one out.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

*Couple of confessions for Mimi...*

Just thought I'd tell you that if my mentor, or anyone else in my MTB group for that matter, knew I'd posted this thread, my future lifespan could be counted in the number of minutes it took for someone to come over here and kill me. They definately think I'm fast enough as it is and I should say I don't want to give a false impression, I'm not all that fast much of the time, it's just toward the end of rides when everyone is getting tired that I can still haul.

Second confession is O/T, but thought it might put a smile in your day. You know how people have tv shows and characters they follow? Well, within mtbr.com, there are some people I follow.

I definately follow any of the people who helped me in my downhill thread when I see their posts that catch my interest or that I need to learn about. But there are a few people I follow cause I like the way they aren't afraid to live out loud.

Nate in the beginner's forum is one. He is so frickin' funny. I was sold after he posted the "I gotta stop drinking" thread and his latest spin on Jerry Maguire, "Help Me Help My Wife" is just too sweet.

Then there's azmtb31 who I think should get an mtbr.com award for the most moxie it took to post a thread and the most fortitude it's taken since then to field some of the replies. I keep meaning to go over there and give her a "You GO GURL!!!" post and will likely do so after this.

Anyhow, thought you should know you are one of the people I follow because you remind me so much of some of my pals in the city. When I was taking Chinese at City College, they would help me, but it was kinda tough. My teacher was adamant that we speak Mandarin with a Beijing accent and would fillet us if we got it wrong. Two of my pals were native Cantonese speakers who had Mandarin as one of their dialects. I worked with them and they would speak Cantonese all day, unfortunately I would show up to class speaking Mandarin with a Cantonese accent and my teacher and another friend who was a Beijing native would rain fire down on me. One day I asked them why the Chinese were so different in the way they would correct me compared to any other language I had learned and that by American standards, their corrections would be considered harsh or abrupt and indicate they really didn't like me all that much. They told me that with the Chinese culture, it would be a sign of disrespect if they did not correct me. It would mean they didn't think I was smart enough to understand, let alone learn. Also, what Americans would consider abrupt or abrasive was actually considered a passionate response by Chinese standards and that the more the person cared about you and the subject at hand the more intense the response. Anyway, I guess this is my long winded way of saying I love how passionate you get about mtbing, how much you care that people learn and that you remind me of my pals whenever I see your posts. Not sure what other languages you have, but if one of them is Chinese, thought I'd share these pictures with you. The first is on a dry erase board I have at home that I used to practice my calculus on, but now use to practice my zhong wen. The second is of the first time I ever typed in Chinese. The paragraph you see, took me almost two hours to do. I think learning Chinese is the only thing more humbling and rigorous I've known after mtbing

Anyhow, hope this puts a smile in your day.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

btw, having trouble posting the pics...I'll have to try again later


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

A post for Me Thanks for the post it was really sweet. So you speak both Mandarin and Cantonese? wow. I'm part Cantonese and I don't even speak it the only thing I really said out loud is Kung hey fat choy 

I'm glad to hear that you are representing the sport well, it's especially tough as we are in CA. Mountain bikers are pretty much bottom feeder as it is now, we yield to everyone. There are a lot of riders who just pick up the sport and ride without knowing the consequence of their actions. 

The rest of my message would be in your PM box:thumbsup:


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

mimi1885 said:


> So you speak both Mandarin and Cantonese?


No, only Mandarin. The only words I know in Cantonese are (spelled phonetically, as I don't know the pinyin) cho dai and dough jay. The command to sit down and the word for thank-you. I'm a special ed nurse and at the time I was learning Chinese, I worked in a special ed pre-k class...I can't tell you the number of times I heard cho dai...frickin' hysterical!!

btw, check your pm box


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Man, it's amazing to me how a thread about chainrings could evolve into a thread about how we feel about mtbr and it's members, lol. Guess that's something only a women can do. But it's all good, and it's nice to have a female perspective/touch up in here. Less ego and more open conversation is always a good thing, IMO. 
Since we're on the topic of feelings would like to say I'm glad you're sticking with it and I'm sure you're seeing improvements in your stamina, technique, fitness level. 
It's so true, I follow many threads because I find some people funny, witty, or just interesting. 
May you ride like the fung wah.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

If you need a real big ring, why don't you take a look at some of the road rings, and simply have an adapter made? That could easily end up being cheaper than buying a 50T MTB ring.

Magura


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

theMeat said:


> I'm glad you're sticking with it and I'm sure you're seeing improvements in your stamina, technique, fitness level.
> 
> *I love it and it's amazing how much I've improved in such a short time. Btw, think of you from time to time as you were the first person who ever told me about riding out of the saddle on a rigid. I'm tending that way more and more the stronger I become, I love how it makes me feel like a kid again.*
> 
> ...


I'm glad Mimi and I's little dialog put an lol in your day. It was good to hear from you again! Take care


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

O/T for the Meat....

Was on the phone with my sister in Boston last night, planning my next trip there and we decided we're gonna catch the Fung Wah for a few days to the city...thanks for the heads up on that one


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

By "the city" did you mean NYc?
The "Fung Wah", which means magnificent wind btw, althou cheap has a scary safety record. Might wanna look into a bus line that's called "Bolt". Brand new buses and cheaper. Or Amtrak's "Acela" train, which is not as cheap but faster, and a much nicer way to travel.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

theMeat said:


> By "the city" did you mean NYc?
> 
> *Yes, NYC*
> 
> ...


Have a great weekend!


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

IDK, fung wah sounds so peacefull to me. I never named my bikes but If I was looking for a name that represents the bus line, I'd go with something like "Dodgy Geezers", with an english accent of coarse. Which would describe the buses as well as most of the drivers. 
Sure you're just being modest and you're not in that 2% worst. From where I'm sitting you seem to be more open minded, and dedicated to mtbing than most that I ride with.
Thanx, you have a great weekend too!


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

theMeat said:


> IDK, fung wah sounds so peacefull to me. I never named my bikes but If I was looking for a name that represents the bus line, I'd go with something like "Dodgy Geezers", with an english accent of coarse. Which would describe the buses as well as most of the drivers.
> Sure you're just being modest and you're not in that 2% worst. From where I'm sitting you seem to be more open minded, and dedicated to mtbing than most that I ride with.
> Thanx, you have a great weekend too!


I agree, fung wah does sound peaceful and it's meaning is beautiful and inspiring. I guess it's kinda funny to name your bike, but I think it's a great name for my bike and I'd been kinda bummed I could never find one that seemed to fit her, until now. I named my car "The Argo" after Jason's ship from Jason and the Argonauts...one of my fav ever movies when I was a kid. I was one of those who was jumping all over the sofa and coffee table, pretending to help Jason fight off the skeleton soldiers as the movie was playing...boy, this thread has really gone off topic, hasn't it?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Cool but to get back OT, think it would be benificial in many ways to get a bike with more modern geometry, with 26" wheels, and a proper front sus fork. If money's an issue I'd go the craigslist or whatever route. It's always good to have more than 1 anyway. This way you can set them up more specifically. Like 1 for road, 1 for trail, or for dh, xc, technical ect. Don't mean to preach, and it's your $, just my .02.
Enjoy your trip to the big apple.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Cool but to get back OT, think it would be benificial in many ways to get a bike with more modern geometry, with 26" wheels, and a proper front sus fork. If money's an issue I'd go the craigslist or whatever route. It's always good to have more than 1 anyway. This way you can set them up more specifically. Like 1 for road, 1 for trail, or for dh, xc, technical ect. Don't mean to preach, and it's your $, just my .02.
> Enjoy your trip to the big apple.


I totally agree. My next bike will be fs, most likely xc. My plan is to demo as many bikes as possible before getting one and to get a decent used one in the interim. Unfortunately, the economy already cost me hours a bit back and there is talk of more coming our way...add to that, my hybrid's battery just gave the signal that it's on it's way out so there goes $3,500 that would have gone to my next bike. Still the upshot is that at least I have a job, when so many don't. In such a light, quibbling about having to wait a bit longer for a new bike would be bad form. And as challenging as she is, I do have a bike that I love to ride, that is teaching me a great deal.

By the way, went on a ride today with a beginner who was having a tough go of it and managed most of the ride by staying only on my large chainring, even up a couple short steep ascents that I didn't think I'd be able to pull off. So I ended up having a lot of fun and getting a great workout while supporting a pal who is trying to get back up to speed.

Thanks so much for your help and kind words, Meat. Have a great week


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

Did my first real technical ride after a nasty crash six weeks ago and the downside was that I balked on a lot of things I would normally have done. The upshot was that for the first time I got to see what chainring I'm using when I'm doing technical work and it was almost always the middle ring...so thought of s0ckeyeus' input when I realized this.


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## Kaizer (Jul 19, 2010)

IMHO, since you're getting good at riding rigid, best to get an AM bike or something with more than 5" of travel. Reason being, you have already acquired the skills needed for a do anything bike with a rigid, might as well as get more suspension for trails that needed it?


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Kaizer said:


> IMHO, since you're getting good at riding rigid, best to get an AM bike or something with more than 5" of travel. Reason being, you have already acquired the skills needed for a do anything bike with a rigid, might as well as get more suspension for trails that needed it?


That's a good advice:thumbsup: I agree. The sweet spot now is 5-5.5" travel bike. Most can climb and descend very well. If you like Pivot the m5.7 is delicious.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks, Kaizer and Mimi for your advice! 

Not all that educated about suspension, so I'm curious to know why 5-5.5" travel is considered the sweet spot??


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Tank Girl said:


> Thanks, Kaizer and Mimi for your advice!
> 
> Not all that educated about suspension, so I'm curious to know why 5-5.5" travel is considered the sweet spot??


4" FS are consider by today standard as XC bike, there are a few exception of course. They are lighter and more aggressive geometry for climbing. It gives on stability and descending as it's less forgiving on the descend.

Trail riding are very popular segment of the sport, most 5-5.5' bike can climb well and descend with more confidence and comfort than XC bikes. A few good example would be Ibis Mojo, Pivot Mach 5, Santa Cruz Blur LT, Giant Trance, Cannondale Rize, Yeti 575 ect. Many consider these bikes to be the one bike as you can climb hills and descend more technical trail.

6+" are heavier though they are more capable descend but with it's heavier weight it's a tougher sells as "One" bike. Although the trend keep moving up in the travel some 6-6.5" bikes are at or even lighter than 26lbs.

That's a basic idea. Kaizer suggested that you get a bit longer travel bike so it would be more versatile for you in the long run. Since you've been paying your dues riding and learning on a rigid 24" it would be very rewarding indeed when you get yourself a trail bike:thumbsup:


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## Kaizer (Jul 19, 2010)

Spot on explanation from Mimi.

IMHO with the skills acquired with a rigid, especially in the decends, with a longer travel bike, the biggest reward you'll get is SPEED. Quite a lot of it. But it's a good idea to keep swapping bikes to keep both spectrum in check. It's easy to get lazy on a FS. On terrains & speed where you need to stand up in attack position, it's quite comfy sitting down on a FS.

I gotta keep reminding myself to be active in the trails on a FS. Hovering the idea on another HT to keep learning the right skills.

It's different type of fun, both a HT/Rigid and FS. Best to have both... Hahahaha


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

mimi1885 said:


> 4" FS are consider by today standard as XC bike, there are a few exception of course. They are lighter and more aggressive geometry for climbing. It gives on stability and descending as it's less forgiving on the descend.
> 
> Trail riding are very popular segment of the sport, most 5-5.5' bike can climb well and descend with more confidence and comfort than XC bikes. A few good example would be Ibis Mojo, Pivot Mach 5, Santa Cruz Blur LT, Giant Trance, Cannondale Rize, Yeti 575 ect. Many consider these bikes to be the one bike as you can climb hills and descend more technical trail.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Mimi, your explanations are great and I totally get what you are saying. I am going to be riding Moab this May and Downieville and plan on renting/demo'ing bikes for each that I would consider for my next bike. I've already tried a Pivot Mach 4. I was going to do an Ibis Mojo for Moab and not sure what yet for Downieville. My plan is to demo as many bikes as I can this season in as many situations as I can, so I can make the most informed choice. I do like AM riding, as this is what my mtb group does mainly, but whatever bike I get next must also be something I can race with for fun without getting frustrated, which would seem to indicate a XC bike.

Btw, if you are ever up in the bay area, hollar my way, cause dim sum's on me:thumbsup:


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Thanks for the invite. Like wise if you ever in Socal, PM me. I have a few bikes in small that you can try. Ride them test them, you may be surprised that even 5" trail bike can climb incredibly well. For race day you can choose to go with lighter race tires and go big grippy tires for fun day


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

Just thought you'd find this funny...first thing I see when I get my new to me hardtail is that it's large chainring is smaller than mine and I get to thinking...mmm, maybe I could put a 46t on there! 

Also, am going to try and upload my Chinese pics again, I reformatted them and hopefully they'll take this time. 

edit: for those who missed it earlier in the thread, here's what I posted previously about the Chinese pics...

"Not sure what other languages you have, but if one of them is Chinese, thought I'd share these pictures with you. The first is on a dry erase board I have at home that I used to practice my calculus on, but now use to practice my zhong wen. The second is of the first time I ever typed in Chinese. The paragraph you see, took me almost two hours to do. I think learning Chinese is the only thing more humbling and rigorous I've known after mtbing


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## bigbeck (Feb 15, 2004)

Tank Girl said:


> Did my first real technical ride after a nasty crash six weeks ago and the downside was that I balked on a lot of things I would normally have done. The upshot was that for the first time I got to see what chainring I'm using when I'm doing technical work and it was almost always the middle ring...so thought of s0ckeyeus' input when I realized this.


 If you'll be doing a fair amount of technical riding, you should really try out a 5 or 6" FS bike with a slack head angle, say 68.5 to 69.5 degrees and put a fat tire on front. When I did this, Endos became a thing of the past. I went down technical descents faster and with more confidence. With the slacker geometry, I now pedal the downhills that I used to burn up my brakes on. The bike is so much more stable. The fat front tire is nothing short of amazing when climbing very steep,rooty and rocky climbs. But you've got to keep the tire pressure on the low side.

If you get on one of these bikes and ride it in the LBS parking lot. The steering will feel a bit sluggish, like a luxury car. That's when you know you've got a good mountain bike. That vague sloppy steering disappears when you start shredding the trails. And you'll be amazed by things that used to stop you, that you'll now be riding over with ease.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

bigbeck said:


> If you'll be doing a fair amount of technical riding, you should really try out a 5 or 6" FS bike with a slack head angle, say 68.5 to 69.5 degrees and put a fat tire on front. When I did this, Endos became a thing of the past. I went down technical descents faster and with more confidence. With the slacker geometry, I now pedal the downhills that I used to burn up my brakes on. The bike is so much more stable. The fat front tire is nothing short of amazing when climbing very steep,rooty and rocky climbs. But you've got to keep the tire pressure on the low side.
> 
> If you get on one of these bikes and ride it in the LBS parking lot. The steering will feel a bit sluggish, like a luxury car. That's when you know you've got a good mountain bike. That vague sloppy steering disappears when you start shredding the trails. And you'll be amazed by things that used to stop you, that you'll now be riding over with ease.


Thanks, bigbeck for your reply. After the technical ride I did this weekend on my new to me hardtail, I totally get what you are saying. I also understand why I've been endo'ing so much on my rigid.

Funny you should mention the feel of fs being like a luxury car. After riding rigid for six months, I think it feels like gliding around in a yacht. To be frank, I don't like how disconnected I feel from the trail and how little of a workout I feel I get when riding with suspension, be it ht or fs vs. rigid. What ht/fs have going for them is that they open up trails and rides I cannot pull off at this time with my rigid and both provide a much safer way for me to build up my skills inventory and riding ability.

Also, thanks for bringing up the fat tire aspect. I am thinking some good quality tubeless may be the way to go.


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## bigbeck (Feb 15, 2004)

Tank Girl said:


> Thanks, After the technical ride I did this weekend on my new to me hardtail, I totally get what you are saying. I also understand why I've been endo'ing so much on my rigid.
> 
> .


 Sounds like you're a rigid girl all the way. Maybe you would like a rigid bike with a slightly slacker head angle? Sort of an all mountain rigid with a fat front tire. Not sure if they even make them. I would think someone does. The big front tire helps you stay upright in loose turns in addition to rolling over stuff that will stop a skinny tire with high pressure. They also help to keep your line in the rough stuff, both uphill and down.

Funny you mention a suspension bike as feeling disconnected from the trail. For the technical trails that I ride, a HT or rigid makes me feel disconnected. I have much more control over the bike on those trails with a FS bike. It always goes where I point it. Sometimes I think about maybe getting another hardtail but quickly change my mind when I accidentally lock out my rear shock and my butt starts bouncing all over the place.:lol: Maybe I'm just spoiled from cruising around in yachts for all these years.:thumbsup:

The only time I feel a little disconnected from the trail is when I ride an air fork which is why I use coil spring forks. It doesn't matter much to me if the rear shock is coil or air, though.


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

bigbeck said:


> Sounds like you're a rigid girl all the way. Maybe you would like a rigid bike with a slightly slacker head angle? Sort of an all mountain rigid with a fat front tire. Not sure if they even make them. I would think someone does. The big front tire helps you stay upright in loose turns in addition to rolling over stuff that will stop a skinny tire with high pressure. They also help to keep your line in the rough stuff, both uphill and down.
> 
> Funny you mention a suspension bike as feeling disconnected from the trail. For the technical trails that I ride, a HT or rigid makes me feel disconnected. I have much more control over the bike on those trails with a FS bike. It always goes where I point it. Sometimes I think about maybe getting another hardtail but quickly change my mind when I accidentally lock out my rear shock and my butt starts bouncing all over the place.:lol: Maybe I'm just spoiled from cruising around in yachts for all these years.:thumbsup:
> 
> The only time I feel a little disconnected from the trail is when I ride an air fork which is why I use coil spring forks. It doesn't matter much to me if the rear shock is coil or air, though.


Not sure I mentioned this already, but I've only ridden with suspension three times in the six months I've been riding and I ride a lot, so my thinking/experience is quite limited. When you mentioned the backend of your ht bouncing all over the place, I had that happen so severely on my ht once this weekend that I almost got thrown like off a bucking bronco. That experience really opened my eyes to the benefits of fs and made me understand why I endo so much.

Also, you've made me rethink and reconsider something with regard to feeling disconnected from the trail. I do get what you are saying about feeling disconnected and not as in control with a rigid. After I read that, I thought about it and realized the times I feel that way on a rigid are going downhill over technical areas at speed. The bike gets to bouncing so hard, it's bebopping everywhere and the funny thing is that the best way to respond is to stay really loose with her and not grip too tight or steer too precisely cause you'll lose it if you do. At least that's what I've found when it starts getting dicey.

Interesting about the air vs coil difference for your front shock. So are you saying that the air shock is too stiff and doesn't translate the trail enough, or too much?

btw, love the visual of someone cruising around on yachts all these years...don't know why, but that's pretty frickin' funny!


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## bigbeck (Feb 15, 2004)

Tank Girl said:


> Interesting about the air vs coil difference for your front shock. So are you saying that the air shock is too stiff and doesn't translate the trail enough, or too much?
> 
> !


 It's a vague feeling. sort of like the trail is a little loose or soft. But you'll never feel it unless you've ridden properly set up coil forks. The main drawback of coil forks is that you have to change the spring to suit your weight and riding style. With air forks, you just vary the air pressure. The high end air forks are much better today than they were 8 years ago. But I still prefer coil. It's a 'personal feel" thing.

Yeah, bouncing down a steep rugged descent on a short travel HT was often a scary experience for me. It always felt like the bike was controlling ME. Because of that, i never really enjoyed this type of descent very much. After I bought a slack FS bike, these same descents turned into a lot of fun because I had control of the bike now. It's like I went from beginner to pro, just by changing the bike! It was an eye opener,for sure. Then I added a fat front tire and it got even better. I now sometimes pick a more difficult line just to make things more fun. Used to be that the BIKE picked the line.:lol: Amazing what a simple 2-3 degree change in geometry can do.


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## Kaizer (Jul 19, 2010)

The endo feeling is worst when riding a soft long travel HT. The front end just dive causing massive change in HTA geometry and suddenly everything infront of the wheel just gets much closer! LOL

Tankgirl, send you a PM. Thanks in advance.


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## BaeckerX1 (Oct 19, 2007)

Here's my take on it. I have a 5.5" full suspension, and a 26" hardtail. I also have a 29" hardtail, but it's only recently acquired and hasn't been ridden on any serious trail yet (currently setup in commuter mode).

The fully is awesome, by far my most fun bike. It's setup with big grippy tires tubeless, and it is built for flat out speed descending. You really just flow through the trail. You can really push it hard, lean it in the corners, and just attack terrain. I don't think it's necessarily "disconnected" because with that extra speed (and extra bike weight) comes a lot of effort throwing the bike around and pumping it through the terrain. Even on a dualie I never sit while I'm descending.

The hardtail is a blast too, but in another way. I'm not as fast on it downhill, but it does climb better and it's more lively on the trail. It's also lighter. The great thing about the bike is it loves to be in the air. It's easy to jump it and bunnyhop over obstacles. The rear wheel doesn't stay glued to the ground like the dualie, so you get used to flicking the back end around and over stuff. I'm definitely using more of my legs to pump it through terrain, but I wouldn't say it's always more work than the dualie, just different. It's a nice change from my full suspension.

As for rigid, I don't think I'd ever want to go that way personally. There's no give in the front, so there's a lot of hand and arm fatigue from all the jackhammering being transferred directly to you. Without at least front suspension to conform to the trail, it's a lot harder to keep traction and brake as efficiently. Your wheel bounces in the air a lot so it becomes harder to stop. You can't attack terrain as aggressively. You tend to flounder over stuff instead of bombing through it. It's just not as fun for me. I don't know that it would give me any more of a workout than my hardtail, it would just make my hands and arms hurt more at the end, more from vibrations than anything else. More pain does not always equal more of a workout. I definitely wouldn't be pushing it as hard anyway, so any extra work, if any, from not running suspension would most likely be a wash.


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## bigbeck (Feb 15, 2004)

BaeckerX1 said:


> The fully is awesome, by far my most fun bike. It's setup with big grippy tires tubeless, and it is built for flat out speed descending. You really just flow through the trail. .


:thumbsup:

Yes, go faster! When I got my first floppy steering yacht, as Tank Girl likes to call it. I didn't really try to go faster. It just went faster by default because I felt safe and used the brakes a lot less.

"The right tool for the job" applies to bikes as well. Riding a rigid through the nasties, is like trying to drill a hole in wood with a butter knife and a hammer. Sure, you could do it, but it will be slow and you may hurt yourself in the process. :lol:


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## Tank Girl (Sep 24, 2010)

bigbeck said:


> ... It always felt like the bike was controlling ME.
> 
> *Too funny!!! Also, quite apt. Hadn't really thought of riding rigid in this light before but it's true. You really have to be tuned into the bike and respond to and with her in a way that you don't with suspension...definately one of the things I love best about riding rigid.*
> 
> ...


Hope you get in some great sailing on your yacht soon!!


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