# New Dobermann for Christmas...build questions



## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

Well, my awesome wife finally gave in and bought me a Dobermann Pinscher frame for Christmas!... This is my first DJ\urban bike so im gonna need alot of help and info to build this thing up. Still waiting on the frame to arrive, but i've been spending all my free time researching and buying parts. the only thing i've purchased so far are the stem and handlebars (Simtra McPuggy bars and the Simtra SY-stem 55mm stem), i have a little christmas cash left over so i'm trying to decide on what bottom bracket and cranks to get. My initial thought was the truvativ hussefelt or holzfellars, the bb on the pinscher is a euro and form what i can gather is the same as most standard mtb bottom brackets. the howitzer bottom bracket that works with these is an external bearing bb, is running an external bb a good idea with a dj/urban bike, or are there any better options? sorry for my ignorance on the subject this is all new to me. Also what type of consideration do i have to make since im setting this up as a singlespeed. As far as setting up the chainline. do i have to have a single speed hub in the back or is it better to have regular hub with a coversion kit on it, are there any pros or cons to either...? thanks for any help, hopefully im asking the right questions...basically i need recomendations on what cranks and bb would be the best to run with a single speed set-up and how to set it up. I plan on doing a little bit of everything with it DJ, Park, and Urban stuff, no trail stuff though, i have my regular mtb for that. thanks again...


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## KIBZIE (Jun 30, 2007)

the main con with buying a single speed hub is that if you ever wanted to run gears you would have to buy a regular one. Ive got a regular with a conversion kit. regular hub plus ss converter cost the same as the ss hub


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

I'd pass on those cranks. I think the spindle/crank interface blows.

Get some BMX cranks like Profiles (just an example). You can really fine tune the chainline.

If you're really set on outboard bearings, I prefer Shimano cranks. Saints are completely bombproof. Hone cranks (dual ring only) with the pedal inserts hold up fine for most riders.

A singlespeed hub will build up a stronger wheelset (less offset). But... less complete wheel options. And if you ever choose to get gears... you have to lace up a new hub. If you go with a singlespeed hub, avoid the thread-on freewheel hubs. Go with a cassette hub or a driver hub. The Nashbar SS hub is cheap and it will take Odyssey 1-piece drivers.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

XSL Will is dead on with everything. Go BMX for cranks. You can run any size ring and if you are doing park, you will want a micro drive. I have a set of Shadow Conspiracy cranks, which uses a profile euro BB and spindle, and I use a Tree splined ring. Allows me to use a 22/12 gear set-up. In the park a large chainring will get caught/smashed on copings.

On the SS hub choice, I recommend SS if you plan to never want gears. Makes a stronger wheel. I am replacing my current hub with the Nashbar that was recommended. I may get a dedicated driver in the future.

I ran the Howitzer with Hussefelt and they sucked. One of the crank bolts came loose and the arm stripped out. I got them warranteed in about a week with replacements but I am going to sell them (for sale if interested  ).


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

thanks guys this is exactly the kind of info i needed. i was looking at some of the bmx cranks on dans comp. there seems to be a wide variety in price, what are some of the better cranks for the $$. Also, how do i know what length of spindle i need/want, and what BB should i go with there seems to be a big range in price there too. Are the bmx cranks just as strong as the mtb variety. sorry for loading you guys up on the stupid questions, i have no frame of reference for this type of build and not alot of shops here in town do many dj bikes. i basically plan to let you guys help me build this thing per your recommendations, ill just pay for it... i'll post picks as soon as i get the frame and get things going.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

If you have a euro threaded BB shell... you'll need a euro BB. But the BB will depend on what cranks you go with. Different cranks have different spindle diameters (ie 19mm, 22mm, etc).

Saying one is stronger than the other isn't quite right. Some cranks are super light and thus not as strong. Some are more expensive. Blah blah blah. It's a difficult (and not really fair) comparison. MOST BMX cranks are cromo while MOST MTB cranks are aluminum. I mean Saint cranks are damn near bombproof. I doubt that you'll have any issues with a quality BMX or MTB crank that's designed for the intended purpose. As for BMX cranks... I would recommend the Profiles (Ti spindle if you can cough up the dough). Madera cranks are made by Profile... just cheaper. Demolition Medials (Medial LT comes with a Ti spindle if you've got the green), Primo Powerbite and Hollowbite are damn strong (one is marginally lighter both are aluminum). Deity cranks are pretty nice, the new Deity Vendetta cranks are really nice. Deity's will probably be easier to install because of the longer spindle length. They are specifically intended for MTB frames.

BMX cranks will fit the burlier chainwheels on them. There are no spiders to crack or bend. That's a plus. Also it's very easy to adjust chainline with the spacers. Many BMX cranks have a Ti spindle option to drop some weight.


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## bbrz4 (Jun 12, 2007)

Deity cranks are sweet....


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## d_m_b (Jun 8, 2007)

you can run a hope SS/trials hub with no dish, and since it's a freehub, you could run a few gears if you change your mind in the future. (SS is fantastic though...stick with it) you can also fine-tune the chainline with the included spacers. it's what i run. expensive, but a damn good hub. loud as sh*t too!

i have the hone crankset and it's worked well for me thus far, but i haven't bashed it on anything yet so we'll see. good luck with your build!


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

*thanks yall*

thanks for all the input... i did a little searching on the cranks and i like the demolition medials, http://www.danscomp.com/452535.php?cat=PARTS

what bb will i need to get to work with my euro bb shell? will this one work? with the medials

http://www.danscomp.com/456007.php?cat=PARTS#


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Yup, the Profile Euro BB should work fine.

As for the hub, many SS hubs can hold more than just one gear. I prefer Hadleys to the Hopes. A real nice solid engagement with a nice click to it. And they last forever.


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## sittingduck (Apr 26, 2005)

Go with the nashbar hub, $35 and bulletproof.
Good call on the cranks. I would go for a small chainring, I run 27/12 on my urban machine and it is the nuts. The smaller ring usually allows you to use less spacers since it clears the chainstay a lot easier. You will get better spindle engagement with the crank arms.


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## BIKESerFUN (Sep 5, 2007)

"Allows me to use a 22/12 gear set-up."


Damn boy ur spinnin...my 23 11 is a pain in the ass.


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

sittingduck said:


> Go with the nashbar hub, $35 and bulletproof.
> Good call on the cranks. I would go for a small chainring, I run 27/12 on my urban machine and it is the nuts. The smaller ring usually allows you to use less spacers since it clears the chainstay a lot easier. You will get better spindle engagement with the crank arms.


thanks again... ill probably drain my last bit of christmas cash on the cranks and bb. but my next problem to solve will be what chainring to run,. then wheels. there seems to be tons of combos to run depending on the type of riding, i want to be able to ride the parks but also go out to the djs where i live as well, is there a speific combo that work best for both or is it all personal preference...?


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Gear ratio mostly comes down to personal preference.

Some people say to run 55 gear inches, other say a 2:1 ratio. Whatever, it's up to you. If you start with like a 28t chainring, you can start at 2:1 with a 14t cog and drop two more teeth without going to a 1 piece driver.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

BIKESerFUN said:


> "Allows me to use a 22/12 gear set-up."
> 
> Damn boy ur spinnin...my 23 11 is a pain in the ass.


What wheel size?? 26" for me. Feels perfect for the park for me.


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

Demo-9 said:


> What wheel size?? 26" for me. Feels perfect for the park for me.


Well your ratio is pretty easy, not even 2:1. I used to run a similar ratio(26:14) and it sucked ass, good for accelerating but the top speed suffered a lot. I'm now at 26:12 and it's perfect.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

I hear you with the gear ratio, but indoor I don't need a lot of top speed. Most of the speed is from roll-ins and just need enough to maintain speed. 22/12 on a 26" park bike is perfect for park and the DJ area I ride..

Plus when coming off a manual that may be a foot or so short before diving back in, the gear allows for a quick half-pedal.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

Funny.. I had a Woodman RSN SS hub on my Riot. Ever since I built it I had a loud click when putting torque on the pedals. Swapped out the chainwheel (twice), chain (twice) and a new rear cog and still had the click. Adjusted the chainline like 5 times and struggled. I had a hunch that the pawls or the spring was bad. E-mailed Woodman for new pawls/spring to no avail. No answer or anything.

I realized that the Nashbar hub is identical to the Woodman so I orderd one for $35. I was going with 2 thoughts - swap drivers or rebuild the wheel. Well the minute I took the hub out of the box and spun it I knew it was the pawls/spring. The new hub sounded like a Ringle compared to the Woodman that was nearly silent.

Swapped out drivers and seal, rebuilt it up and took it for a ride. No more clicking. Only took a month of trial and error to narrow it down. Only way to describe the issue is that the pawls would open really slow when the driver was removed. All 4 of them reacted slow. I may be the spring. In any case it was better than rebuilding the wheel. I think that once torque was applied it was either slipping inside the body or something. Now it feels amazing to ride a finished bike that makes no mysterious noise.


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

XSL_WiLL said:


> Gear ratio mostly comes down to personal preference.
> 
> Some people say to run 55 gear inches, other say a 2:1 ratio. Whatever, it's up to you. If you start with like a 28t chainring, you can start at 2:1 with a 14t cog and drop two more teeth without going to a 1 piece driver.


would it be an accurate comparison to use my mountain bike gears to get a general idea how it would feel? i have the standard 44-32-22 setup if i was in my 22 and tried different gears to see what felt right would that give me a general idea of what i might want?

Also xsl-will what do yo mean by having to go to a one piece driver?, im not sure i even know what that is...sorry.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

A one-piece driver is used on a SS hub. It replaces the cassette with a solid gear and bearings all in one. Great if you know what gear you want and won't change it often. For me I like the mini cassette on the hub to swap out gears easily. 

For trying out gearing, you may be able to throw on your current cranks and rear wheel and check it out. For SS just space out single cogs on the wheel (if you can) and line it up to a straight chainline to the 22 up front. Or just put it in a few gears that fit. May be tough to use the 22 up front and one of the 3 small cogs on the rear due to chainline.

But anything is better than purchasing gears that you realize are not what you want. I started with 25/14 and ended up with a 22/12 set-up. But at least I have 2 different 25t and a 22t up front and have a 12-18t cog to choose from for the rear if I need to change it up..

Crip - My issue was intermittent. Oddly enough it was more often after going around a corner?? Weird...


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## CripTiK (Oct 21, 2007)

Demo-9 said:


> Funny.. I had a Woodman RSN SS hub on my Riot. Ever since I built it I had a loud click when putting torque on the pedals. Swapped out the chainwheel (twice), chain (twice) and a new rear cog and still had the click. Adjusted the chainline like 5 times and struggled. I had a hunch that the pawls or the spring was bad. E-mailed Woodman for new pawls/spring to no avail. No answer or anything.
> 
> I realized that the Nashbar hub is identical to the Woodman so I orderd one for $35. I was going with 2 thoughts - swap drivers or rebuild the wheel. Well the minute I took the hub out of the box and spun it I knew it was the pawls/spring. The new hub sounded like a Ringle compared to the Woodman that was nearly silent.
> 
> Swapped out drivers and seal, rebuilt it up and took it for a ride. No more clicking. Only took a month of trial and error to narrow it down. Only way to describe the issue is that the pawls would open really slow when the driver was removed. All 4 of them reacted slow. I may be the spring. In any case it was better than rebuilding the wheel. I think that once torque was applied it was either slipping inside the body or something. Now it feels amazing to ride a finished bike that makes no mysterious noise.


Sorry for the hijack but I have a clicking sound when I put torque on my pedals. Mine seems to happen when the left pedal gets toward the bottom and then I feel a slight vibration in the pedals. The sound seems to be coming around the BB area and I have taken the BB apart and regreased, checked the chain line, and made sure the chain wasn't too tight.

Did your problem have any consistency on when you heard it? I'm just wondering if I have the same problem you did.

Ok, back on topic. I was looking at Deity Vendetta crankset and for the money I was wondering if I was overlooking something better. Or if I spent just a bit more would I get a better crankset?


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## A Grove (Nov 12, 2006)

CripTiK said:


> Sorry for the hijack but I have a clicking sound when I put torque on my pedals. Mine seems to happen when the left pedal gets toward the bottom and then I feel a slight vibration in the pedals. The sound seems to be coming around the BB area and I have taken the BB apart and regreased, checked the chain line, and made sure the chain wasn't too tight.
> 
> Did your problem have any consistency on when you heard it? I'm just wondering if I have the same problem you did.
> 
> Ok, back on topic. I was looking at Deity Vendetta crankset and for the money I was wondering if I was overlooking something better. Or if I spent just a bit more would I get a better crankset?


My guess is you got some dirt in your pedal bearings. If its sealed/re-buildable, take 'em apart, de-grease and re-grease.


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## combatkimura (Jul 17, 2007)

BMX cranks, singlespeed, the only way to roll.


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## A Grove (Nov 12, 2006)

Demo-9 said:


> A one-piece driver is used on a SS hub. It replaces the cassette with a solid gear and bearings all in one. Great if you know what gear you want and won't change it often. For me I like the mini cassette on the hub to swap out gears easily.
> 
> For trying out gearing, you may be able to throw on your current cranks and rear wheel and check it out. For SS just space out single cogs on the wheel (if you can) and line it up to a straight chainline to the 22 up front. Or just put it in a few gears that fit. May be tough to use the 22 up front and one of the 3 small cogs on the rear due to chainline.
> 
> ...


So.. you still got whats left of that there nashbar?


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

A Grove said:


> So.. you still got whats left of that there nashbar?


Yep. Actually it is a complete hub. Just that the Nashbar shell has the Woodman casssette body. I may get a new spring and replace to have a fully operational cassette.

Unless someone wants it?


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

*crank arm length..*

...thanks again for everyones input. i'm gonna order my crank arms this weekend so my next quesion is what length does everyone suggest, i realize this might come down to personal preference as well and i haven't decided if im gonna be running 24's or 26's (i think in the future i want to have both sets). I have 175s on my mtb but im not sure if that really gives me any sort of accurate read on what i want for the dobe, i'd be grateful for you guys experience with different crank arm lengths and what you prefer. BTW im 5' 7" 150 and the frame size is a small a 21.5 TT, if that matters at all. OH yeah the frame finally showed up it looks sweet. i got "super wet black" i plan on blacking it out all stealth like...:thumbsup:


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

I used to run 170s... that was when I still went to the trails and what not. I went to 175s when I started riding street more (it's what I had sitting around). I know that going back to the trails, I'd probably scrape the arms a few times... but no problems on the street. I guess it gives more leverage too... but I don't/can't notice it.


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## -.---.- (Jun 15, 2007)

yeah, bmx cranks, singlespeed, and if your doing trails and park and street, a good strong rigid fork might work. Maybe if you need some cushioning on the front you could get a 80mm fork...like a Marzocchi dirtjumper 3 or 2, not the 2008 versons. Or a manitou, fox, or whatever you can find. As long as it's strong and light.

You didn't order wheels did you? Good...some tips:

Mavic Ex721
MAvic Ex321
(guys maybe the numbers are wrong, I'm only uessing here)

Basically all mavics with an Ex at the beggining are cool.

Sun double tracks are cheaper, you can get an entire wheelset with DT Swiss champion spokes and Deore hubs for under 120 $, new, but they are heavier. Plus they're super burly, when would be neccissary if your going to fall a lot, which most beginners do =).

Enjoy!


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

I think 175 for the bike would be good if riding 26". Now with a 24" wheel you may want 170. I used to BMX race with 180mm for the added power and torque, but 175 would be the max for park and DJ. I like the 175 on my Riot. 

For rims go with the EX721. I built a set and they are light and strong. Not sure on the EX321 though.


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## -.---.- (Jun 15, 2007)

ok thanks for clearing that up man


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

*moving on to wheels...*

ok i ordered my cranks and bb, (still deciding on what sprocket to run), but anyways now im starting a search for some wheels. i still haven't decided if im going 26 or 24 yet but i've done plenty of research on the pros and cons of the two so i wont bother you guys with that one. After some research and per someones earlier recommendation if im gonna go 26 the mavic 721's seem to be a popular choice. what are some good wheels if i go 24? thanks again...


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

For 24s... MTX, RhynoLite XL, PimpLite, Arrow FRX, Alex DM24, Spank Subrosa, etc. But since it's not a 24" specific frame... I'd just stick to the 26s.


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## the_godfather (Jan 19, 2007)

the EX321's are pretty damn strong. they're just a bit narrow and was a struggle to mount wider tires. I'd go for the EX721's. decently light and strong as hell. i was running without any tension in the spokes and they still stayed straight (ish) nothing more than a couple of mm out after several weeks of riding. a well built wheel will last longer than a poorly built one. shame mavic dont make any 24" wheels. the MTX's and pimp's seem to be popular 24's at my local spot


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

*bb and crank installation...*

when installing my BB and cranks will i need any lock-tite and if so what color on the BB threads and also the spindle bolts that hold the cranks together. my mtb BB's always came with the right stuff already on the threads. And i guess since im asking, are there any nuances to installing and adjusting the Profile euro bmx BB, that are different than a regular one? thanks again for humoring my noob questions...


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

I don't use any Loctite. Wrap the BB threads in PTFE Teflon tape. Generously grease the threads in the frame and on the BB. Fill any plug holes in the frame with grease. Great the spindle bolts. The spindle bolts need to be pretty tight.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

I agree with XSL_Will and not use any loctite. I have a euro Profile BB on my Riot. I recommend bringing the frame to a LBS that has a chasing tool to clean out the BB threads. Then clean everything really well and grease the threads on the frame and on the BB well. I do this with all BB on all of my bikes. I hae an advantage that I work at a shop so tool access is easy. Just pay the $10 and have it done..

Obviously there is a left and right sided cup so make sure they are correct. You need to space out the inner sleeve that goes between the cups. Depending on your BB length (68 or 73) you may need to add a spacer to the inner sleeve. You want the cups to press against the inner sleeve AND at the same time be flush and tight against the frame. 

Once you know the cups will be tight, place the spindle in and tighten both cups. You may need to slide the spindle one way or another as you set-up the cranks. If so, loosen the cups a tiny bit, slide the spindle and re-tighten the cups. One helpfull hint is to torque the cups with the spindle in its' final location before installing the arms. Sometimes you have to play around a few time to get it right.

Put on the arms and chainring and carefully align each arm as close as you can to the frame. get the drive side on and set-up. Then put on the non-drive side and use required spacers as needed.

Hope that helps a bit.I actually did not do any of those steps when I first put mine together. I am so used to MTB stuff that it took me a while to get these BMX cranks perfect. In fact I don't even have an inner sleeve on my BB. My Profile cup set was so old it had no sleeve. But I carefully tightened it and there is no binding...


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

excellent ...thanks for the info guys.


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

*chainwheels*

ok, been lookin at chainwheels for the build. what he deal with the adapter situation, i bought the demolition medial cranks with a 19mm spindle, is the "bore" the hole size? will i need an adapter they all seem to say something about an adapter and i dont see to many with a 19mm hole...thanks in advance.

Edit: oh yeah any thoughts on the ones with the built in chain guard...good thing, crap??


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

If you buy a sprocket for a 22mm spindle then you will need a adapter to reduce the size of the hole to 19mm.

Some of the ones are nice. Whether you need it or not... is up to you.


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

*wheels...*

well i've been reading the threads on wheels. and i think im going 26. im looking at the azonic outlaws for a couple reasons. First the price. i realize there are better wheels out there but i need to keep this build somewhat under control. Second i could use them as a back up wheelset for my regular mountain bike. plus i didnt seem to find that many single speed hub prebuilt wheels that are a descent price. Also i only weigh about 150lb so i wont be to hard on them.

so i guess my main question would be are there any other pre-built wheelsets out there that are comparable price wise to the outlaws that may be a better wheel?

thanks again...


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Performance Forte Loco - same rim but 32h and pinned instead of welded. It's cheaper too.

Otherwise check ebay. Sometimes you see nice wheelsets go for way cheap.


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

*rear axle size*

Hey guys thanks or all the great info on everthing. i have another quick question. I just got my Azonic Outlaw wheelset today( got a smokin deal), and as you know it comes with the standard quick release axle on the rear (well and a 12mm), anyways it doesnt seem to want to fit into the dropout on the pinscher frame, im assuming it might be because of the paint on the dropouts but i didnt want to take the sand paper to my frame unitl i got a second opinion, i can't imagine the dobe frame having less than a 10mm dropout size. (and yes im sure the 12mm axle isnt on the wheel, its still in the bag...:thumbsup: )

thanks again, and i apologize for my ignorance once again...


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

Try harder, wuss!

Paint overspray may have happened, if you do take out the sand paper, make sure you coat the exposed metal or it will rust.


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

snaky69 said:


> Try harder, wuss!
> 
> Paint overspray may have happened, if you do take out the sand paper, make sure you coat the exposed metal or it will rust.


lol, thanks for the confidence builder...sand paper it is.


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

*brakes*

i see alot of people runing hydros, i know i have to have extra line out to be able to allow the bars to spin, is there any issues with yankin the hose out? how much extra hose/housing is enough? Also are the cable disc brakes effectiveness effected when they get wrapped around the bars?


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## A Grove (Nov 12, 2006)

Cable disks and tight turns are a no-no. In all honesty, you only need two spins TOPS. whenever you get the new line cut, as them to wrap it around the HT two times then run it to the lever with just a little bit of slack, then bleed, and all will be good


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

*BB spacers...*

ok when im installing the BB in my bike, how do i know if i need to install any frame spacers on the inside of the bearing cups. i believe my bb shell is 73mm and im using the profile bmx bottom bracket kit (euro bb)

http://www.danscomp.com/456007.php?cat=PARTS#

additionally how do i know if the axle sleeve is the correct size to load against the bearing cups correctly with my bb shell size?

thanks for any help...again.


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## rlee560 (Jan 6, 2008)

for 73mm bb you need to use the gold tube spacer


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## summud (Jul 26, 2006)

rlee560 said:


> for 73mm bb you need to use the gold tube spacer


my euro kit only came with one sleeve. when i stack it toghether like it would be assembled in the bb, and measure from the inside of one cup (the part that would be flush against the shell) to the other it measures 70mm, so im assuming i will need 3mm worth of spacers on the frame? is that right?...its a euro bb kit so im assumming it would have to be for either a 73 or 68 mm shell.

edit:i just measured the spacer sleave its 47mm


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## rlee560 (Jan 6, 2008)

The gold tube spacer is 52mm. Since your bb is for a 68mm bb and you have a 73mm bb you need 5mm of extra spacers. And you have 47mm and need 52mm spacer also equals 5mm.


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